# Itachi vs Prime Hanzo



## Itachі (Jan 23, 2016)

*Location:* Hanzo vs Sannin

*Distance:* 20 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* None

This is the Hanzo that fought the Sannin, can Hanzo do the same to Itachi?

*Bonus:* By hype and portrayal, do you think it's unlikely that Hanzo would lose to Itachi?


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2016)

We don't know his full ability. 

By hype tho, he seems to be stronger, altho I don't think Kishi will let Hanzo win.


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## Ersa (Jan 23, 2016)

Individually the Sannin are weaker then base Itachi as they are combat equals and Itachi shitstomped Orochimaru. So it's really a matter of if a man who equalled three weaker versions of the Sannin is equal to a fully unrestricted Itachi. To which I say no, old Hanzo is lacklustre and his "prime" gives him little to fend off Susanoo.


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## Bringer (Jan 23, 2016)

*@Ersa*

I wouldn't say Itachi shit stomped Orochimaru. We never knew what happened in their fight after the flashback got cut. If Itachi could effortlessly low dif then Orochimaru wouldn't even be alive, because Itachi would have literally no reason to spare Orochimaru during there fight. The obvious answer imo is that although he could beat Orochimaru, he couldn't kill him. It should be noted that that Itachi was aware of Orochimaru's 8 headed snake technique, meaning he has seen it before. Also if I'm remembering correctly Orochimaru didn't go "wtf is that" when he saw Susanoo, so I think It'd be fair to assume he was aware of the MS techniques, or at the very least Susanoo. I think there fight was much longer than what we saw in the flashback.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 23, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *@Ersa*
> 
> I wouldn't say Itachi shit stomped Orochimaru. We never knew what happened in their fight after the flashback got cut. If Itachi could effortlessly low dif then Orochimaru wouldn't even be alive, because Itachi would have literally no reason to spare Orochimaru during there fight. The obvious answer imo is that although he could beat Orochimaru, he couldn't kill him. It should be noted that that Itachi was aware of Orochimaru's 8 headed snake technique, meaning he has seen it before. Also if I'm remembering correctly Orochimaru didn't go "wtf is that" when he saw Susanoo, so I think It'd be fair to assume he was aware of the MS techniques, or at the very least Susanoo. I think there fight was much longer than what we saw in the flashback.



exactly.



Anyway i usually put Prime Hanzo next to Prime Nagato and Prime Hiruzen (High Kage Tier) so based on that he wins. Its speculation of course but Itachi admitted inferiotity to pt 1 Jiraiya. Pt 2 Jiraiya whom knows he has SM as backup acted as if he couldnt take on Prime Hanzo and win.
Itahci has feats but Hanzo has portryal. Id like to go with portrayal since Prime Hiruzen is one of those guys that has no feats, but wouldnt lose to Itachi.


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Putting aside the fact that Jiraiya's statements obviously place Prime-Hanzo above Jiriaya himself, who in turn Itachi himself admitted he'd be lucky to draw with; Jiraiya knows the strength of Minato and Prime Hiruzen very well, he also expected Akatsuki to contain people stronger than Orochimaru, even still he couldn't believe anyone's power could exceed Prime-Hanzo's. Itachi is not that strong.

_Jiriaya, "I don't believe it"

Jiriaya, "You must be mistaken, no matter how great Pain's strength is it's not exceeding his"

Jiriaya, "That man is known by every person in the Ninja World, Amegakure's Hanzo of the Salamander"

Jiriaya, "If that's the case by what means was Hanzo? " 

Jiriaya, "What is Pain's ability?"

Jiriaya, "I can't believe...by merely one person, that Hanzo"

Amegakure-Fodder, "Kuku...Well it took a god to do it after all"_


Beyond Jiriaya's words, Nagato himself implies that he only beat Hanzo due to Hanzo's decline in strength:

Pain, "and now you can't even understand why I defeated you as you are now [in comparison to before]. "

------

Again this places Hanzo above Itachi.



Hussain said:


> We don't know his full ability.
> 
> By hype tho, he seems to be stronger, altho I don't think Kishi will let Hanzo win.


Kishimoto absolutely would allow Prime-Hanzo to defeat Pre-Edo Itachi, as Itachi by his own admission was following the wrong path as a Ninja, and the results were all his major endeavors failed, while Hanzo at the time he was in his Prime was following the right path as a Ninja, and his endeavors succeeded (as seen from his impact on Mifune years later). So Prime-Hanzo absolutely would be allowed to beat Living Itachi, from a narrative perspective. Than all that matters is strength, which Prime Hanzo has over Itachi according to statements.

Ironically the reverse is true when it comes to Edo forms.


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## Rocky (Jan 23, 2016)

Jiraiya is also aware of Madara, and the Sage of the Six Paths. Hanzō > Hagoromo confirmed.


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## LostSelf (Jan 23, 2016)

I don't think Jiraiya was refering himself to dead shinobis, tbh.


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya is also aware of Madara, and the Sage of the Six Paths. Hanzō > Hagoromo confirmed.


I think we are intelligent enough to make the distinction between Jiraiya's being aware of myths and legends like Madara and Hagoromo, and Shinobi Jiriaya knew on a personal level like Minato and Prime-Hiruzen. 

I mean it's one thing to be shocked that anyone has strength exceeding Hanzo's because your not exactly sure people have mythical powers that may or may not have ever existed; and an entirely different story to be shocked anyone has strength exceeding Hanzo's when you knew several people that did on a personal level.

But if you want to believe Hanzo > Hagoromo, who am I to argue with that 



LostSelf said:


> I don't think Jiraiya was refering himself to dead shinobis, tbh.



Course he is, he says anyone and does not at all qualify.


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## Rocky (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I think we are intelligent enough to make the distinction between Jiraiya's being aware of myths and legends like Madara and Hagoromo, and Shinobi Jiriaya knew on a personal level like Minato and Prime-Hiruzen.



Myths and legends? It was implied that Jiraiya stopped considering Hagoromo a "myth" when Nagato used Hagoromo's eyes in front of J-man's face. [1]

As for Madara, he's barely out of Jiraiya's era. Hashirama, Madara's rival & superior, was alive when Tsunade was, and Tsunade & Jiraiya are the same age. Furthermore, Hashirama's face is carved into the side of a fucking mountain. He isn't a myth. Madara isn't either.


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## Bringer (Jan 23, 2016)

Didn't Kabuto say Hashirama's power was considered a fairy tale?


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Myths and legends? It was implied that Jiraiya stopped considering Hagoromo a "myth" when Nagato used Hagoromo's eyes in front of J-man's face. [1]


Jiraiya believed Hagoromo was real, but he clearly knew little to nothing about Hagoromo's powers, considering his reactions to Pain's powers. For all we know he could have simply believed Hagoromo's and the Rinnegan's powers simply amount to granting the user all 5 Elemental affinities and the ability to quickly learn new Jutsu.




> As for Madara, he's barely out of Jiraiya's era. Hashirama, Madara's rival & superior, was alive when Tsunade was, and Tsunade & Jiraiya are the same age. Furthermore, Hashirama's face is carved into the side of a fucking mountain. He isn't a myth. Madara isn't either.


Considering Tsunade was shocked by the scale of Flower Tree World, Kabuto talked about how a power like Flower-Tree World was considered mere fairy-tale, and how she had no knowledge of P-Susano'o. I think it's a pretty fair assumption that Jiraiya likely did not know anywhere near the true extent of Hashirama's or Madara's power.


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## Itachі (Jan 23, 2016)

I don't really put much past Jiraiya, he believed in the Child of Prophecy shit firmly..


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## Rocky (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin, Jiraiya knew that Madara existed and was powerful enough to summon the Nine-Tails. That alone is enough to put him above Hanzō.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 23, 2016)

And the obvious 20-year-old Sannin =/= 50-year-old Sannin.


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I don't really put much past Jiraiya, he believed in the Child of Prophecy shit firmly..


Jiraiya's belief in the destined child had to do with Nindo not strength. As I said before Jiriaya clearly did not know the extent of Hagoromo's power, as he was left baffled by Pain's power, which is a very pale imitation.



Rocky said:


> Turrin, Jiraiya knew that Madara existed and was powerful enough to summon the Nine-Tails. That alone is enough to put him above Hanzō.


I don't think being able to summon  Kyuubi puts Madara beyond the realm of Hanzo, to be perfectly honest. The reason being that during the Minato vs Obito battle, Minato suspects Obito to be Madara, and than based on that hypothesis reasons that Obito can only summon Kurama for a short period of time. So Jiraiya likely would have held the same belief, that Madara could only summon Kurama for a short period of time. And while Kurama's power is certainly overwhelming it's not unthinkable that Hanzo had several abilities that would enable him to survive for the short duration of Kurama's summoning, as we've certainly seen characters that aren't on Hashirama or Madara's godly level that could survive for that period of time; for example I wouldn't be shocked if Minato could pull that off, and if Jiriaya considered Hanzo stronger than Minato, there you go.

Or even if Hanzo lacked those abilities, he may still be considered the overall stronger ninja, by Jiriaya, as certain Ninja do not lack said abilities, allowing them to perhaps have a chance to beat Madara in Jiriaya's eyes, but they'd loose to Hanzo.


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## Ghoztly (Jan 23, 2016)

Even if Hanzo was in Itachi's tier or higher, I just don't see what defense he would have against MS.


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Considering Tsunade was shocked by the* scale of Flower Tree World*, Kabuto talked about how a power like Flower-Tree World was considered mere fairy-tale, and how she had no knowledge of P-Susano'o. I think it's a pretty fair assumption that Jiraiya likely did not know anywhere near the true extent of Hashirama's or Madara's power.



I think Tsunade was surprised that madara could use it, but she was not surprised by the "scale" 



Altho hype and those stuff change every time to "hype" something that needed at the moment. Just like how Kishi hyped Obito's Rinnegan and black rods
to be stronger than Nagato's when he needed to hype obito, and then changed that to make the 2 eyes stronger in order to hype madara making obito unable
to handle the 2 eyes power and child Nagato can.

He made it so WZ are made from Hashi's cells when he wanted to hype Hashi up, and then changed that to make the people from Kaguya's area to hype
her and IT. So, Hanzo's hype might fall for it as well.

Just like how he hyped Hiruzen when he wanted to do so and proved it by defeating Hashi and Tobi, and then changed it to hype those 2 instead 
and so on.

Kishi is full of shit.


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## Rocky (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I don't think being able to summon  Kyuubi puts Madara beyond the realm of Hanzo, to be perfectly honest.



 



Turrin said:


> While Kurama's power is certainly overwhelming it's not unthinkable that Hanzo had several abilities that would enable him to survive for the short duration of Kurama's summoning



Please do share which specific abilities Hanzō possesses that would allow him to survive that long against the beast that fought against the 4th Hokage, the Third Hokage, and Konoha's entire fucking military without so much as receiving a scratch. 



Turrin said:


> We've certainly seen characters that aren't on Hashirama or Madara's godly level that could survive for that period of time.



I would like to know which character fought against Kurama solo for as long as Kurama's summoning lasted during the flashback. Then, I would like to know which characters could do that while fighting against the friend that summoned the fox too.  



Turrin said:


> Or even if Hanzo lacked those abilities, he may still be considered the overall stronger ninja, by Jiriaya, as certain Ninja do not lack said abilities, allowing them to perhaps have a chance to beat Madara in Jiriaya's eyes, but they'd loose to Hanzo.





Hanzō would have his anus _torn to shreds_ by Kurama alone, let alone Kurama and Madara. Then there's Hashirama, who beat Madara. 

Even if Jiraiya didn't have the details on Hashirama or Madara's abilities, if he thought it went Madara (super powerful Uchiha that could summon the Kyūbi to help him) < Hashirama (guy who beat Madara) < Hanzō, then Jiraiya is, well? Jiraiya is retarded.


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## Kai (Jan 23, 2016)

Hanzo is victimized by Itachi's genjutsu if there's absolutely no knowledge on the table.

As far as hype comparisons go, it should be a well known fact that presenting fame on a global level when the other subject is someone like Itachi is comparing apples to oranges. 

Jiraiya knew very little about the upper echelon of Akatsuki. Kakashi knew about Itachi more than Jiraiya did.


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## ThatGreekLady (Jan 23, 2016)

Prime Hanzo stomped the Sannin. I think he wins here.


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I would like to know which character fought against Kurama solo for as long as Kurama's summoning lasted during the flashback. Then, I would like to know which characters could do that while fighting against the friend that summoned the fox too.



Kushina solos.


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2016)

Kai said:


> Jiraiya knew very little about the upper echelon of Akatsuki. Kakashi knew about Itachi more than Jiraiya did.



How do you know?


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## Kai (Jan 23, 2016)

Hussain said:


> How do you know?


He fought Itachi twice, experienced power progression of the same dojutsu, and had his brother as his own student.

Jiraiya is hardly a template to be used if we're opting to measure what Itachi is capable of or known for.


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2016)

Who gave Konoha the info about Amatersu that Kumo used to know more about itachi? 



> and had his brother as his own student.



Before he even awake his 3T sharingan that is. 
Barely to see him ever again. lol



> He fought Itachi twice, experienced power progression of the same dojutsu


One of which Kakashi was defeated very fast (itachi used 1 MS jutsu)

just like how Jiraiya encountered him once where itachi ran away very fast (used 1 MS as well)
Not to mention it's Jiraiya who gave Kakashi info about the Akatsuki


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## Kai (Jan 23, 2016)

Jiraiya saw the black flames and ended his observation in confusion. Kakashi experienced the time and space hell of  Tsukuyomi for himself, and experienced the power progression and degrading of his own Sharingan for himself. Jiraiya experienced none of these for himself. Kakashi fought Itachi twice. Kakashi and Itachi were simultaneously in the Anbu together.

Kakashi has a much greater connection to Itachi than J-man does. J-man and Itachi had a single encounter. Never to be mentioned in the same breath again.


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## Matty (Jan 23, 2016)

Stop this... Hanzo is a low/low end mid Kage at best. Itachi should violate him. 

Sorry Izaya, I don't think I would ever in my life out Prime Hanno in the same convo as Prime Nagato


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

@Rocky

I'm going to try something different and just ignore all the bait and trolling in your post and cut to the part with substance. Kurama really wasn't fighting the village very long, considering Minato and Obito's battle happened at the speed of space-time. Minato stating it's a short period of time should be enough to prove that. So were talking a few minutes here. Personally I believe that Shinobi of Minato and Tobirama's caliber can certainly survive against the Fox for a few minutes, but even putting them aside we have characters like Danzo and Obito, that we know could do so, and nether of them are on Hashirama or Madara's godly level. So it's not unimaginable to me that Prime-Hanzo could survive a few minutes against the Fox.

As far as fighting Madara at the same time goes, we don't know what Jiraiya believed Madara was capable off while controlling the Fox. He may have believed Madara could do hardly anything but control the fox, while having the fox summoned, or that Madara's abilities were greatly limited. Ether way I could still see Jiraiya believing Hanzo could handle something like that for several minutes. 

And what abilities could Hanzo have, IDK, because we saw next to nothing from Hanzo, but whatever abilities Hanzo had Jiraiya considered > Minato's, Hiruzen's, and individual's that were probably stronger than Orochimaru. And Nagato seemed to believe he could not have won against had Hanzo not declined. So whatever they are, they are portrayed to be at a high enough level where again I can realistically believe they could hold out against the Fox for a few minutes. 



Hussain said:


> I think Tsunade was surprised that madara could use it, but she was not surprised by the "scale"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The online translation is totally different:
"Doh! I just saw Itachi use Tsukuyomi on Bee. Why'd I look in his eyes!?

If you have the Raw I'd translate it and see which one was right

But irregardless, Tsunade didn't know about P-Susano'o, so I still believe she was quite ignorant of Hashirama's true power, and that was her own grand father. So I can very easily believe that Jiraiya didn't know fact from fiction enough to make an informed call on Hashirama/Madara's power.

And I agree hype changes, but I see no indication Hanzo's hype has. The last thing we heard of Hanzo's hype, was Nagato once again hyping him in the war arc.



matty1991 said:


> Stop this... Hanzo is a low/low end mid Kage at best.


Can you tell me what your basing this on?


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2016)

I don't have the raw, but I found Geg's translation, and it's the same like Viz more or less. 




matty1991 said:


> Stop this... Hanzo is a low/low end mid Kage at best. Itachi should violate him.
> 
> Sorry Izaya, I don't think I would ever in my life out Prime Hanno in the same convo as Prime Nagato



itachi is jonin-level according to Kishi,


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## Dr. White (Jan 23, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *@Ersa*
> 
> I wouldn't say Itachi shit stomped Orochimaru. We never knew what happened in their fight after the flashback got cut. If Itachi could effortlessly low dif then Orochimaru wouldn't even be alive, because Itachi would have literally no reason to spare Orochimaru during there fight.


except that we did see how the fight went. Oro thought he was tough shit and got binded by a casual 3 tomoe genjutsu. Itachi cut off his arm thwarting any further Kai attempts, and most of his jutsu. Oro is not outpacing Itachi from a foot away, and a follow up Amaterasu or replacing 3 tomoe with Tsukuyomi (coma + No jutsu activation). would have wrecked him. conversly Itachi could have beheaded him instead of taking his hand after the genjutsu.



> The obvious answer imo is that although he could beat Orochimaru, he couldn't kill him. It should be noted that that Itachi was aware of Orochimaru's 8 headed snake technique, meaning he has seen it before.


No the obvious answer is that Itachi is a pacifist, and let him go with a warning shot. Hence why he didn't behead him or immediately drown him in Ama. Portrayal of Orochimaru keeping the lost hand with his ring on it, and looking at it with disdain as he tells Kabuto he would king of the world with Itachi's body, and that he could never beat Itachi even if he tried, kinda goes to show you the stain it left on Oro.

Bringing up Itachi knowing about his 8 headed snake technique is pointless. A.) We don't know when he saw it, if he even did.
B.) Itachi also knew about Ryuchi and Snake Sage mode, yet never saw it in battle until Kabuto fight.


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I don't have the raw, but I found Geg's translation, and it's the same like Viz more or less.


Interesting, but doesn't affect my position all that much.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I think we are intelligent enough to make the distinction between Jiraiya's being aware of myths and legends like Madara and Hagoromo, and Shinobi Jiriaya knew on a personal level like Minato and Prime-Hiruzen.
> 
> I mean it's one thing to be shocked that anyone has strength exceeding Hanzo's because your not exactly sure people have mythical powers that may or may not have ever existed; and an entirely different story to be shocked anyone has strength exceeding Hanzo's when you knew several people that did on a personal level.
> 
> ...



I wonder whom would he see as the winner in a fight if Minato and Prime Hanzou battled given the praise he gave to both.


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Rocky said:


> If only Hanzō had advanced Space-Time Ninjutsu or a secret Uchiha Kinjutsu. .


We don't know what Hanzo had, that's my point. 



> Oh, and by the way, if this:
> 
> _"You must be mistaken, no matter how great Pain's strength is it's not exceeding his"_
> 
> ...is what Jiraiya said, then Jiraya thought that Hanzō's strength was above Pain's even if Pain had power comparable to Kurama himself. So yeah, it was generic hype not meant to be taken literally.


Jiraiya has no reason to be comparing a Human Ninja's strength to the strongest of the Tailed Beast. 



> ...and whatever Jiraiya's believed of Madara's, and Hashirama's,
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Edited for Accuracy 

Bottom line, I've already answered all of these objections. Rather than treating Jiraiya's as a liar, it makes more sense considering that all three of these individual's powers were the stuff of folklore, that Jiraiya simply did not know the true extent of their power. However Jiraiya certainly knew the extent of Hiruzen's and Minato's power. 

Jiraiya is also not the only one hyping Hanzo, Nagato and Mifune both sing his praises.


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## Rocky (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya has no reason to be comparing a Human Ninja's strength to the strongest of the Tailed Beast.



_"You must be mistaken, no matter how great Pain's strength is it's not exceeding his"_

"Strength" is not limited to humans. Nothing in this statement omits the tailed beasts. 



Turrin said:


> However, Jiraiya certainly knew the extent of Hiruzen's and Minato's power.



Oh? Prove it then.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 23, 2016)

I always take hype and the authors own words very seriously so based upon Kishi's own words Hanzo is supposed to be seen in his Prime as a High Kage level ninja who beat the Sannin by himself and was stated by Jiraiya to be above Pain or by Pain himself to not being able to defeat him in his Prime but I think 


1. We don't know exactly how strong the Sannin are or what abilities they had in that moment its hard to quantify 

2. Pain is a beast but he's not THAT powerful Pain even admitted himself that Jiraiya could beat him with knowledge , Naruto would've beaten him if not for the 5 minute time limit , someone like Minato could beat them , shit I'd even give Tobirama a shot at beating him , Pain is no different than a sick itachi he is abysmal when compared to what their potential is as we saw both drastically outperform their alive carnations and even Naruto said Nagato is stronger than Pain so what we have here is a ninja who can accomplish what other high kage level ninja can accomplish by defeating Pain.


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Rocky said:


> _"You must be mistaken, no matter how great Pain's strength is it's not exceeding his"_
> 
> "Strength" is not limited to humans. Nothing in this statement omits the tailed beasts.


Jiraiya is talking about a human Ninja.



> Oh? Prove it then.


Prove that Jiriaya knows the strength of his Sensei and Student. Quite trolling.

@Eliyua23

I think the difference is Hanzo is implied capable of beating Pain w/o intel, and implied stronger than Minato & Jiraiya; so I think he is step ahead of the Ninja you listed. How far ahead, is anyone's guess at this point.


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## Rocky (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya is talking about a human Ninja.



And human ninja can possess "strength" that eclipses the tailed beasts. 



Turrin said:


> Prove that Jiriaya knows the strength of his Sensei and Student.



Yes, prove that Jiraiya knew the full capacity of their power.


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## Saru (Jan 23, 2016)

In his prime, he's probably around Itachi's level, honestly. I could see Nagato being just as worried about fighting Itachi as he was about fighting Hanzo. It's the same way with Obito waiting for Itachi to die before making his move against Konoha.

As for this matchup, Itachi would probably win with genjutsu and/or Amaterasu. I think Itachi's probably a cut above Hanzo but not _vastly_ so.

Hanzo's showing against Mifune had a lot of... Circumstances surrounding it (the most notable being that Hanzo's conviction--and therefore his power--was not at its prime). So I wouldn't make a judgement based on that performance alone.


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## Hasan (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> *Jiraiya knows the strength of Minato and Prime Hiruzen very well*



He didn't, really—

_"He who possessed the same pupils as the Sage of the Six Paths not only mastered every jutsu I taught him...He demonstrated the ability to achieve all 5 changes in nature, *which is unheard of in a single person*."_​
Look who uses all five elements masterfully  — Jiraiya's very own mentor, whose strength he knows very well.


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## Rocky (Jan 23, 2016)

gg

Rack em' up, let's play again.


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## Ghoztly (Jan 23, 2016)

Hasan said:


> He didn't, really?
> 
> _"He who possessed the same pupils as the Sage of the Six Paths not only mastered every jutsu I taught him...He demonstrated the ability to achieve all 5 changes in nature, *which is unheard of in a single person*."_​
> Look who uses all five elements masterfully  ? Jiraiya's very own mentor, whose strength he knows very well.



Even Kakashi has used all the elements at some point lol.

Wait, he might not have used wind yet, if he has someone confirm please.

Yeah I am not sure what was going through Kishi's head sometimes.


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## fyhb (Jan 23, 2016)

Itachi Tsukiyomi. GG. 

His Genjutsu is powerful. Understand? Good.


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## Dr. White (Jan 23, 2016)

Hasan said:


> He didn't, really?
> 
> _"He who possessed the same pupils as the Sage of the Six Paths not only mastered every jutsu I taught him...He demonstrated the ability to achieve all 5 changes in nature, *which is unheard of in a single person*."_​
> Look who uses all five elements masterfully  ? Jiraiya's very own mentor, whose strength he knows very well.


Hiruzen was so smooth in that panel; "I know"


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya is talking about a human Ninja.
> 
> 
> Prove that Jiriaya knows the strength of his Sensei and Student. Quite trolling.
> ...



Off course when he had his nerve he was able to put together a plan to deceive Yahiko and along with his men kill Yahiko and cripple Nagato , Hanzo could easily gather intel and have the forces to go toe to toe with Pain because the village was split but by that time he lost his nerve , I'm pretty sure info and tactics played a part in what Nagato was saying not 1 vs 1 raw power battle because we saw how that went down when nagato went on his rampage and he fled from that power and said power is what sent him into hiding.


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Rocky said:


> And human ninja can possess "strength" that eclipses the tailed beasts.
> .


Jiraiya didn't know of anyone even close to possessing the raw might of 100% Kurama, so it's not unimaginable to me, that he considered something like that impossible for a human to achieve. 



Rocky said:


> Yes, prove that Jiraiya knew the full capacity of their power.


Trying to compare Jiraiya's knowledge of his pupil and master, to his knowledge of Shinobi whose abilities were the stuff of folklore is intellectually dishonest on your part, and you know it. That's the last I'll say on this matter. 



Hasan said:


> He didn't, really?
> 
> _"He who possessed the same pupils as the Sage of the Six Paths not only mastered every jutsu I taught him...He demonstrated the ability to achieve all 5 changes in nature, *which is unheard of in a single person*."_​
> Look who uses all five elements masterfully  ? Jiraiya's very own mentor, whose strength he knows very well.


2016 and people still don't know the difference between having an affinity and being able to utilize an element. Nagato had all 5 Elemental Affinities. Hiruzen could use all 5 Elements. Two different things.



Eliyua23 said:


> Off course when he had his nerve he was able to put together a plan to deceive Yahiko and along with his men kill Yahiko and cripple Nagato , Hanzo could easily gather intel and have the forces to go toe to toe with Pain because the village was split but by that time he lost his nerve , I'm pretty sure info and tactics played a part in what Nagato was saying not 1 vs 1 raw power battle because we saw how that went down when nagato went on his rampage and he fled from that power and said power is what sent him into hiding.


Nagato said the reason Hanzo lost, was due to him becoming rusty. As In the reason Hanzo lost the battle the fight they just had with each other. Not some shadowy political struggle between two factions.

I don't see why it's so hard to accept that Prime-Hanzo could be above the aforementioned characters. Jiraiya's statements also imply Hanzo was the strongest Ninja he knew.


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## Bringer (Jan 23, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> except that we did see how the fight went. Oro thought he was tough shit and got binded by a casual 3 tomoe genjutsu. Itachi cut off his arm thwarting any further Kai attempts, and most of his jutsu. Oro is not outpacing Itachi from a foot away, and a follow up Amaterasu or replacing 3 tomoe with Tsukuyomi (coma + No jutsu activation). would have wrecked him. conversly Itachi could have beheaded him instead of taking his hand after the genjutsu.



Prove that the flashback was all there was too the fight? 



> No the obvious answer is that Itachi is a pacifist, and let him go with a warning shot. Hence why he didn't behead him or immediately drown him in Ama. Portrayal of Orochimaru keeping the lost hand with his ring on it, and looking at it with disdain as he tells Kabuto he would king of the world with Itachi's body, and that he could never beat Itachi even if he tried, kinda goes to show you the stain it left on Oro.



Itachi being a "pacifist" isn't a good answer answer for why he spared Orochimaru. The same Orochimaru who experimented on children, murdered bunch of people, and would later go on to kill Hiruzen and bring Sasuke to his side. 



> Bringing up Itachi knowing about his 8 headed snake technique is pointless. A.) We don't know when he saw it, if he even did.
> B.) Itachi also knew about Ryuchi and Snake Sage mode, yet never saw it in battle until Kabuto fight.




Those are two different things. The 8 headed snake technique is a unique technique that only Orochimaru can use that is probably only possible because his body experiments. Mostly everyone else knows about the Dragon cave, Humid bone forest, and Toad Hill. When Pain learned Naruto's location he didn't go "What da fuck is that place". 

And again, when Orochimaru saw Susanoo he didn't go "What the fuck is dat jutsu" like he usually does when he see's unfamiliar jutsu being used, like Tsunade when she used her regeneration. 

How would Orochimaru even know that Itachi was so above him if the fight ended after he got his hand cut off. I definitely think there was more to it, and that they both brought out 8 headed snake technique and Susanoo.


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## Ersa (Jan 23, 2016)

If possible I stick to what happened on-panel as off panel feats are vague and unreliable.

If I see a character get stomped in a couple of panels and latter admit he is weaker then I see little reason to assume he used more of his power. Being down a hand and having little answer to Itachi's genjutsu I see little zero for Orochimaru to have pushed him any further. Base Itachi being stronger then Orochimaru works perfectly fine in the context of the story and fits in line with statements we have.


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## Ghoztly (Jan 23, 2016)

I am pretty sure Orochimaru was aware of everything that had been going on even after Sauce absorbed him. Hence the lack of surprise seeing Susanoo when he popped out of Sasuke.

Itachi could have killed his ass back then, there are several reasons why he didn't that I can think of. One, you can't just go offing another member of akatsuki like he's some random dude, two he figured keeping Orochimaru around brought some benefit.


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## Matty (Jan 23, 2016)

@Turrin I'm basing it off of common sense. I don't really see Hanzo being higher than low end of the mid Kage tier and that's being pretty generous. He fought with Chiyo multiple times and both survived. I wouldnt consider Chiyo to be more than low Kage and he also fought the inexperienced Sannin. His arsenal isn't terribly versatile and he was stomped by Pein. I don't think my ranking was too far off.


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## Rocky (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya didn't know of anyone even close to possessing the raw might of 100% Kurama, so it's not unimaginable to me, that he considered something like that impossible for a human to achieve.



_"You must be mistaken, *no matter how great Pain's strength is* it's not exceeding his"_

Jiraiya said that there was no amount of power Pain could possess that would exceed Hanzō's. According to that quote, if Pain possessed the power of Kurama, or Kaguya, or Galactus, Hanzō's would have still been his superior. It's hyperbole. Nothing more. No different than Jiraiya saying that nobody compared to the 4th Hokage, or that Tsunade was peerless in combat.  



Turrin said:


> Trying to compare Jiraiya's knowledge of his pupil and master, to his knowledge of Shinobi whose abilities were the stuff of folklore is intellectually dishonest on your part, and you know it. That's the last I'll say on this matter.



So you _aren't_ going to prove that Jiraiya knew what they were capable of?


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 23, 2016)

Hanzo was considered equal or greater then the three sanin not mention he probably had intel on itachi from danzo not to mention he always had a small army with him at all times.

By hype Itachi loses.

By logic Itachi loses.

Why does everyone always try to compare Nagato to Itachi. Nagato crippled or not >>>>> Itachi healthy or not.


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## Ghoztly (Jan 23, 2016)

Yet we haven't seen anything from him that shows such.

By actual feats we could see Itachi shits.

By hype Itachi shits.

By portrayal in general Itachi shits.

By writing Itachi shits.

Said writer wanking him more than anyone else, Itachi shits. 


Hanzo beating the sannin like fodders off panel years and years ago has nothing to do with Itachi.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya didn't know of anyone even close to possessing the raw might of 100% Kurama, so it's not unimaginable to me, that he considered something like that impossible for a human to achieve.
> 
> 
> Trying to compare Jiraiya's knowledge of his pupil and master, to his knowledge of Shinobi whose abilities were the stuff of folklore is intellectually dishonest on your part, and you know it. That's the last I'll say on this matter.
> ...



They didn't really have a fight though he was ambushed and we saw how the initially battle played out between Hanzo and the Ame trio he didn't win because he fought them one on one he used intel , guile and deception to win when Nagato brought out the big guns Hanzo fled the battle and I don't think he meant that he was the strongest shinobi that ever lived because he thought Minato would be the savior of the world , maybe the strongest opponent he's ever faced and that he would be stronger than Pain but like I said earlier begin stronger or being able to defeat Pain isn't the end all be all for most High Kage level opponents


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## Matty (Jan 23, 2016)

Hanzo is not on the Sannins level once they developed. That's like saying because Zabuza trolled Naruto and Sasuke when they were young and inexperienced that even when they grow they'll never surpass him.

Hanzo beat a bunch of jonin who were probably around pt 1 Kakashi level. Then they matured and became beasts. No way is he even beating the Sannin in pt 1 let alone the ones that were portrayed in Pt 2


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 23, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Hanzo is not on the Sannins level once they developed. That's like saying because Zabuza trolled Naruto and Sasuke when they were young and inexperienced that even when they grow they'll never surpass him.
> 
> *Hanzo beat a bunch of jonin who were probably around pt 1 Kakashi level*. Then they matured and became beasts. No way is he even beating the Sannin in pt 1 let alone the ones that were portrayed in Pt 2



You can't back that with facts so its an invalid argument. Jiraiya was shown to go to the frog mountain place when he was a kid. For all we know he used SM against Hanzo and Hanzo negated it with ease.


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## Ghoztly (Jan 23, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> You can't back that with facts so its an invalid argument. Jiraiya was shown to go to the frog mountain place when he was a kid. For all we know he used SM against Hanzo and Hanzo negated it with ease.



This is the problem though, we don't know.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 23, 2016)

Ghoztly said:


> This is the problem though, we don't know.



Then why do people keep saying Itachi rapes? When we all know that Itachi has no chance against all three sanin at once?


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## Matty (Jan 23, 2016)

Ok that's true but are you willing to say they just stayed the same level after that? Every character progresses in the show, so do the sannin. We see it before our eyes from pt 1 to 2. I think pt 1 Kakashi level is a pretty accurate statement seeing as they were all far younger. And I can also flip it around and say there's no proof that they weren't Kakashi level. The fact is after that fight they progressed. Every character progresses and I would say asked on the portrayals they showed that each Sannin member could possibly solo hanzo in pt 2.

Edit: If itachi beat a stronger version of Orochimaru at age 12 or 13 or whatever it was then I would imagine adult itachi with MS would be able to beat the three inexperienced Sannin with ease


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Rocky said:


> _"You must be mistaken, *no matter how great Pain's strength is* it's not exceeding his"_
> 
> Jiraiya said that there was no amount of power Pain could possess that would exceed Hanzō's. According to that quote, if Pain possessed the power of Kurama, or Kaguya, or Galactus, Hanzō's would have still been his superior. It's hyperbole. Nothing more. No different than Jiraiya saying that nobody compared to the 4th Hokage, or that Tsunade was peerless in combat.


Already Answered this, he was talking about Human Ninja. Kurama is not. 

Jiraiya said nobody compared to the 4th in potential

Tsunade was peerless in battle due to a combination of her battle prowess and support capabilities. Tsunade is more valuable to an army or ninja cell, while Hanzo is stronger individually.

Jiraiya likely didn't know the full extent of Kaguya's strength.



Eliyua23 said:


> They didn't really have a fight though he was ambushed and we saw how the initially battle played out between Hanzo and the Ame trio he didn't win because he fought them one on one he used intel , guile and deception to win when Nagato brought out the big guns Hanzo fled the battle


I don't know what this has to do with Pain's statement which refers to a hypothetical battle against Prime-Hanzo 



> and I don't think he meant that he was the strongest shinobi that ever lived because he thought Minato would be the savior of the world , maybe the strongest opponent he's ever faced and that he would be stronger than Pain but like


Jiriaya didn't consider Minato or Naruto the savior for their strength, but their Nindo. So that really has nothing to do with anything.



> I said earlier begin stronger or being able to defeat Pain isn't the end all be all for most High Kage level opponents


Being able to beat Pain w/o intel advantage, is better than what most High Kage level are capable off. And again I have a hard time believe that Jiraiya thought no one could ever hope to exceed Hanzo's strength if his own student (Minato) was already at Hanzo's level, well before reaching his Prime. It just doesn't really make sense to me personally. But to each his own, at least your willing to acknowledge that Jiraiya's and Nagato's statements place Hanzo on a very high level, unlike some people


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## Suit (Jan 23, 2016)

Itachi is always as strong as he needs to be for plot purposes

Hanzo is a motherfucking legend who soloed the sannin in their prime

Itachi wins. Fairy Tail-style, only instead of "for Fairy Tail!" it's "for Kishimoto and the autistics!"


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## Ghoztly (Jan 23, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Then why do people keep saying Itachi rapes? When we all know that Itachi has no chance against all three sanin at once?



Because we don't know that he has no chance against all three of them either, he paneled Orochimaru twice. He fought against a more powerful SM user than Jiraiya. 

His only real fight while alive was when he held back and had no killing intent.

There are too many things we do not know. 

Hanzo we have literally no fucking clue. At least with Itachi we could guess at something.

Potentially yes I can see Hanzo being stronger.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 23, 2016)

Ghoztly said:


> Because we don't know that he has no chance against all three of them either, he paneled Orochimaru twice. *He fought against a more powerful SM user than Jiraiya.
> *
> His only real fight while alive was when he held back and had no killing intent.
> 
> ...



Yeah when he was EDO TENSEI lol that is not valid at all.


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## Matty (Jan 23, 2016)

I find it funny how people use hype for their desired purpose. Hanzo beat inexperienced Sannin so now he is Sannin soloer. But Sasori KO's a country and kills the Sands strongest Kage ever and that hype is just disregarded in almost every battle ive seen in NBD 

Until someone provides a viable way for Hanzo to win this fight besides the use of a battle that happened 20-30 years before he died I'm going with itachi.

And btw hanzo didn't kill one path. Jiraiya killed 3. Hence the progression is pretty well stated


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Ok that's true but are you willing to say they just stayed the same level after that? Every character progresses in the show, so do the sannin. We see it before our eyes from pt 1 to 2. I think pt 1 Kakashi level is a pretty accurate statement seeing as they were all far younger. And I can also flip it around and say there's no proof that they weren't Kakashi level. The fact is after that fight they progressed. Every character progresses and I would say asked on the portrayals they showed that each Sannin member could possibly solo hanzo in pt 2.


The Sannin probably weren't as strong back then as they would have been if they reformed their legendary Team in PI or Early PII, but that isn't a good reason to ignore the intent behind that scene. Kishimoto's intent for showing that scene was clearly to back up Jiraiya's disbelief that anyone could defeat Hanzo, even Akatsuki-Leader; so no matter how precisely strong they were, their combined strength as a team is clearly suppose to be seen as enough where Hanzo demolishing them like he did, left Jiraiya with the impression that no shinobi, even Akatsuki Leader could achieve greater individual strength than Hanzo. Now ask yourself, does that sentiment make sense, if Jiraiya himself and Orochimaru (who was once Akatsuki Leader's underling) had achieved power greater than Hanzo, of course it doesn't.


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## Ghoztly (Jan 23, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Yeah when he was EDO TENSEI lol that is not valid at all.



Hanzo's hype was all off panel, not valid at all.


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## Matty (Jan 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The Sannin probably weren't as strong back then as they would have been if they reformed their legendary Team in PI or Early PII, but that isn't a good reason to ignore the intent behind that scene. Kishimoto's intent for showing that scene was clearly to back up Jiraiya's disbelief that anyone could defeat Hanzo, even Akatsuki-Leader; so no matter how precisely strong they were, their combined strength as a team is clearly suppose to be seen as enough where Hanzo demolishing them like he did, left Jiraiya with the impression that no shinobi, even Akatsuki Leader could achieve greater individual strength than Hanzo. Now ask yourself, does that sentiment make sense, if Jiraiya himself and Orochimaru (who was once Akatsuki Leader's underling) had achieved power greater than Hanzo, of course it doesn't.



Kakashi was also astonished that Jiraiya fought more than 2 paths at once. He didn't have the full story of what happened. I'm sure once Jiraiya found out about pein and seen him CST Konoha or CT the shit out of naruto he would have probably changed his tune on who he would rather fight


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## Hasan (Jan 23, 2016)

Ghoztly said:


> Even Kakashi has used all the elements at some point lol.
> 
> Wait, he might not have used wind yet, if he has someone confirm please.
> 
> Yeah I am not sure what was going through Kishi's head sometimes.



He canonically used 3—Raiton, Suiton and Doton. He used Katon in a filler episode. The 4th Databook, generously giving away elements to every other character, gave him all five, aside from Hiruzen, Hashirama, Tobirama, and Orochimaru.



Dr. White said:


> Hiruzen was so smooth in that panel; "I know"



Yup.



Turrin said:


> 2016 and people still don't know the difference between having an affinity and being able to utilize an element. Nagato had all 5 Elemental Affinities. Hiruzen could use all 5 Elements. Two different things.



What giveth the impression that Hiruzen didn't have absolute mastery over all five elements?



Rocky said:


> _"You must be mistaken, *no matter how great Pain's strength is* it's not exceeding his"_
> 
> Jiraiya said that there was no amount of power Pain could possess that would exceed Hanzō's. According to that quote, if Pain possessed the power of Kurama, or Kaguya, or Galactus, Hanzō's would have still been his superior. It's hyperbole. Nothing more. No different than Jiraiya saying that nobody compared to the 4th Hokage, or that Tsunade was peerless in combat.



In case it's helpful, here's the Viz Translation of #369 from Viz Thread—coincidently requested by Turrin himself:



> *Jiraiya:* Unbelievable. No matter how powerful this Pain might be...There truly were no shinobi that didn't know the name of the previous Amegakure leader, Hanzo of the Giant Salamander.
> *Jiraiya:* Unbelievable that he could take Hanzo down by himself.



I vaguely recalled Hanzou's hype being disputed in the past. The Viz Translation makes no allusion to him being unbeatable, or so.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 23, 2016)

> Turrin said:
> 
> 
> > Jiraiya likely didn't know the full extent of Kaguya's strength.
> ...


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> Because of how much of their back and forth over the yrs played out I'm not certain Nagato only meant physical strength but also his hold on the village because it just wasn't nagato but he rallied nearly half of Ame to overthrow Hanzo maybe Nagato wouldn't be able to achieve such feat if Hanzo were functioning at his normal capacity and not hiding like some scared weakling


Considering the context, them just having battled, I think it's extremely clear that Nagato was referring to that battle.



> Raikage confirmed what Jiraiya believed once he saw Minato's battle prowess , Jiraiya thought it could be Nagato because of his Rinnegan yeah Nindo is important but in order to be the savior one has to be really strong


Jiraiya didn't believe Nagato was the destined child because of Rinnegan, but because of Nagato's Nindo. Yes for Jiriaya it was all about Nindo. Granted strength tends to go along with the Nindo that Jiraiya admired, but there was no set strength qualification for being considered the destined child. And even in Ei's case he believed Minato was the destined child like you said, and Minato is far from the strongest Shinobi.



> Thats the thing I don't think Minato exceeded Hanzo's strength but he got close to it , once you go beyond Hanzo, Minato, Nagato, Jiraiya you're talking about the fairy tale Rikudo-lite freaks that common sense Jiraiya couldnt account for , also I think a Prime Hanzo who has his hands on everything in the village would be able to get info on Pain or get the jump on him


There was no info stipulation on Pain's behalf so I feel like that is reaching. 

As far as levels are concerned, I find attempts to tier charters more and more fruitless as time goes on, and find it more easy to simply talk about whose the better Shinobi overall, so i'm more concerned with the fact that Prime-Hanzo is a > Shinobi than Minato, Jiriaya, etc...

But if we must force things into levels, here's a rough outline 

1- Hashirama / Madara

2- Rinnegan-Obito / KCM/BM-Minato

3- Nagato / MS-Obito / Danzo / Kabuto

4- Jiraiya / Itachi / Minato / Gengetsu / Mu / Onoki / Killer-B 

So to me Hanzo could be Part of Group 2, Group 3, or Top of Group 4, and fit his hype, while being weaker than Hashirama and Madara



Hasan said:


> What giveth the impression that Hiruzen didn't have absolute mastery over all five elements?
> .


Again mastery is not the same thing as an affinity. You are born with an affinity, mastery is something learned. Nagato was born (or granted by Rinnegan) all 5 Affinities. Hiruzen mastered all 5 elements. That's the difference. 



Hasan said:


> In case it's helpful, here's the Viz Translation of #369 from Viz Thread—coincidently requested by Turrin himself:
> 
> 
> 
> I vaguely recalled Hanzou's hype being disputed in the past. The Viz Translation makes no allusion to him being unbeatable, or so.



The translations I posted, was my translation of the Raw, which I feel captures the essence of the txt best, but the Viz is basically the same, in the sense that it's still saying no matter how strong Pain is, Jiraiya find's it unimaginable that he could be strong enough to beat Hanzo


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 23, 2016)

> Considering the context, them just having battled, I think it's extremely clear that Nagato was referring to that battle.



The battle where Hanzo used guile and intel and deception to kill Yahiko and blow off Nagato's legs where he had a bunch of underlings along with him ?




> Jiraiya didn't believe Nagato was the destined child because of Rinnegan, but because of Nagato's Nindo. Yes for Jiriaya it was all about Nindo. Granted strength tends to go along with the Nindo that Jiraiya admired, but there was no set strength qualification for being considered the destined child. And even in Ei's case he believed Minato was the destined child like you said, and Minato is far from the strongest Shinobi.



I think the main theme of the manga is having the nindo , but needing the power strength to accomplish said goals , everyone who had a goal in mind whether it be to become Hokage , Save the World , Defeat a enemy achieving goals is done thru gaining powerful jutsu 



As far as levels are concerned, I find attempts to tier charters more and more fruitless as time goes on, and find it more easy to simply talk about whose the better Shinobi overall, so i'm more concerned with the fact that Prime-Hanzo is a > Shinobi than Minato, Jiriaya, etc...

But if we must force things into levels, here's a rough outline 

1- Hashirama / Madara



> 2- Rinnegan-Obito / KCM/BM-Minato



These are freaks as well BM Naruto , EMS Sasuke were freaks just low end freaks 



> 3- Nagato / MS-Obito / Danzo / Kabuto
> 
> 4- Jiraiya / Itachi / Minato / Gengetsu / Mu / Onoki / Killer-B



I got all of these ninjas pegged as High Kage ninja just before you get to the freakish level of strength its just that Nagato,Obito,Danzo,Kabuto are at the higher end of that spectrum being somewhat stronger than Jiraiya/Itachi/Killer Bee but the later part could compete even pushing them to death Hanzo would fall right in line with that seeing as how he collaborated and had a great deal of respect for Danzo I could see them being near equals 

So to me Hanzo could be Part of Group 2, Group 3, or Top of Group 4, and fit his hype, while being weaker than Hashirama and Madara


Again mastery is not the same thing as an affinity. You are born with an affinity, mastery is something learned. Nagato was born (or granted by Rinnegan) all 5 Affinities. Hiruzen mastered all 5 elements. That's the difference. 



The translations I posted, was my translation of the Raw, which I feel captures the essence of the txt best, but the Viz is basically the same, in the sense that it's still saying no matter how strong Pain is, Jiraiya find's it unimaginable that he could be strong enough to beat Hanzo[/QUOTE]


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> The battle where Hanzo used guile and intel and deception to kill Yahiko and blow off Nagato's legs where he had a bunch of underlings along with him ?


That was a different battle.



> I think the main theme of the manga is having the nindo , but needing the power strength to accomplish said goals , everyone who had a goal in mind whether it be to become Hokage , Save the World , Defeat a enemy achieving goals is done thru gaining powerful jutsu


I agree they need strength, but again nothing precludes Hanzo from being stronger than a destined child, especially one who had yet to fulfill his full potential.



> These are freaks as well BM Naruto , EMS Sasuke were freaks just low end freaks


Define freak, because Hanzo is kind of a freak himself, having implanted a rare salamander's venom sack into himself, causing him to breath poison.



> I got all of these ninjas pegged as High Kage ninja just before you get to the freakish level of strength its just that Nagato,Obito,Danzo,Kabuto are at the higher end of that spectrum being somewhat stronger than Jiraiya/Itachi/Killer Bee but the later part could compete even pushing them to death Hanzo would fall right in line with that seeing as how he collaborated and had a great deal of respect for Danzo I could see them being near equals


Like I said I don't care for tiers that much anymore. I'm just saying the manga indicates Hanzo > Minato / Jiraiya


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Kakashi was also astonished that Jiraiya fought more than 2 paths at once. He didn't have the full story of what happened. I'm sure once Jiraiya found out about pein and seen him CST Konoha or CT the shit out of naruto he would have probably changed his tune on who he would rather fight


That doesn't really change what i'm saying. Jiraiya considering it unbelievable that anyone could beat Hanzo, heavily implies Hanzo > Jiriaya and Shinobi Jiriaya knew well personally like Minato, Hiruze, Orochimaru, Tsunade. 

But Nagato seemingly was unsure he could beat Prime-Hanzo, so there's that to.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 23, 2016)

> That was a different battle.



Which battle are you referring to then 





> I agree they need strength, but again nothing precludes Hanzo from being stronger than a destined child, especially one who had yet to fulfill his full potential.



Minato should've been maxed out what more could he had done , his bread and butter revolved around seals and FTG he had Hax I don't really know how much more he couldve done and what Minato left this world with and by the time Jiraiya left this world not knowing about Madara/Obito eye of the moon plan what he had should've been enough 



> Define freak, because Hanzo is kind of a freak himself, having implanted a rare salamander's venom sack into himself, causing him to breath poison.



I'm talking Rikudo Lites , Trans , Kurama, Perfect Susanoo ect




> Like I said I don't care for tiers that much anymore. I'm just saying the manga indicates Hanzo > Minato / Jiraiya



I more think it says that they are all on the same level


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## Suit (Jan 24, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> I find it funny how people use hype for their desired purpose. Hanzo beat inexperienced Sannin so now he is Sannin soloer. But Sasori KO's a country and kills the Sands strongest Kage ever and that hype is just disregarded in almost every battle ive seen in NBD
> 
> Until someone provides a viable way for Hanzo to win this fight besides the use of a battle that happened 20-30 years before he died I'm going with itachi.
> 
> And btw hanzo didn't kill one path. Jiraiya killed 3. Hence the progression is pretty well stated



1. Personally, I have always maintained that Sasori was a total badass with tons of wasted potential. I just never have had a reason to bring it up. Also, it makes Kankuro's "win" during the war arc kinda stupid tbh.

Do remember though, that the kazekage himself was the only opponent _of note_ that Sasori defeated. On the other hand, Hanzo had 3. Fodder shinobi hardly matter to be honest. Plus, IIRC, Hanzo actually wiped out countless konoha shinobi anyway.

2. Sage mode is transcendent though. It's really on a completely different level from what typical shinobi can accomplish bar for anything related to 6 paths bullshit.

On that note, wasn't it God Realm that did Hanzo in? Jiraiya held his own against three of the weaker paths before using SM, but he would have never lasted against God Realm without it. And likely only so long even with it.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 24, 2016)

No knowledge means Hanzo gets mindfucked like a scrub.

Besides, I don't think there's any significant difference between "prime" Hanzo and the one we saw. The Sannin were probably just weaker when Hanzo dealt with them. Jiraiya was maybe riding his dick a little too hard when he said he couldn't believe one person could beat Hanzo.


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## Trojan (Jan 24, 2016)

There is no point of debating Hanzo's hype. 

1- Jiraiya's statement applies only to the living characters. Why? Because they are talking about a character
that killed him, and it couldn't have been a dead character for Jiraiya to make that possibility to begin with. So,
including the dead characters is not the smartest thing.

2- We know for a fact that Kishi makes things up as he goes and he admitted as much. How do we know that
at that point of time he already planned the Kages, Edo Kages...etc and their abilities? Well, we simply do not
know that, and chances are, he did not. 

3- Altho Hanzo did not get much time to show his abilities, but neither did any other ET (besides madara and itachi obviously), and with the little time we got from him, he was not really that impressive, nor do we know anything so impressive about his abilities whether it may be Shunshin or his poison. 

Regardless of Kishi's original intentions for him, at the time of the War Arc it seems like Kishi linked him to that
Samurai and/or at best Chiyo who seems to have fought him several times. So, his level seems to be with them.

In addition, most of the time, people love to rely on their fanfiction about the characters from X year to Y year.
However, this time, we know for a fact that the Sannin did in fact change and got their most powerful jutsu later on
like with Tsunade's seal (which Oro did not know about in part 1), or Oro's jutsu that Hiruzen was surprised that he
did complete it or whatnot....etc 

So, Hanzo's fight with the Sannin is not really as valid.


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## Matty (Jan 24, 2016)

Hussain said:


> There is no point of debating Hanzo's hype.
> 
> 1- Jiraiya's statement applies only to the living characters. Why? Because they are talking about a character
> that killed him, and it couldn't have been a dead character for Jiraiya to make that possibility to begin with. So,
> ...



This shit right here


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## Ghoztly (Jan 24, 2016)

If Tsunade had her seal or Jiraiya had SM back then Hanzo would have died then and there. And don't even get me started with what Orochimaru didn't have back then.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 24, 2016)

Ghoztly said:


> If Tsunade had her seal or *Jiraiya had SM* back then Hanzo would have died then and there. And don't even get me started with what Orochimaru didn't have back then.



Its def not out of the question since their was a flash back panel of kid Jiraiya going to the toad mountain.

Jiraiya could never fully transform into SM by himself but that doesn't mean he didn't  master it at a younger age with the toads help.


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## Ghoztly (Jan 24, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Its def not out of the question since their was a flash back panel of kid Jiraiya going to the toad mountain.
> 
> Jiraiya could never fully transform into SM by himself but that doesn't mean he didn't  master it at a younger age with the toads help.



Flashbacks implied they were nowhere near the incarnations we got to see more of. Orochimaru appeared to be older than he completed the ET in comparison to their battle against Hanzo IMO. And then he fled the village. Jiraiya attempted to stop him and failed. Why? Because he couldn't enter SM.

Just my opinion of course.


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## Icegaze (Jan 24, 2016)

hanzo does have 2 good LOS blocking techniques

it really depends on what else he has its not impossible for him to win it

but with what he has shown he stand no chance.


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## Hasan (Jan 24, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Again mastery is not the same thing as an affinity. You are born with an affinity, mastery is something learned. Nagato was born (or granted by Rinnegan) all 5 Affinities. Hiruzen mastered all 5 elements. That's the difference.



Rinnegan can't "grant" affinities, if you're born with them, and Jiraiya makes no mention of them in the first place. He said Nagato 'could use all 5 nature transformations, which is unheard of in a single person'. I took affinity more the along the lines of it implying mastery, and vice versa.



> The translations I posted, was my translation of the Raw, which I feel captures the essence of the txt best, but the Viz is basically the same, in the sense that it's still saying no matter how strong Pain is, Jiraiya find's it unimaginable that he could be strong enough to beat Hanzo



The Viz leaves out the impression that Jiraiya knew no one whose strength exceeded Hanzou's. Instead, it gives out the impression that Hanzou was a formidable ninja, who according to Jiraiya, couldn't have been beaten by a single person, considering the Sannin (three of them) struggled against him. . . which is fine.


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## Icegaze (Jan 24, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya didn't know of anyone even close to possessing the raw might of 100% Kurama, so it's not unimaginable to me, that he considered something like that impossible for a human to achieve.
> 
> 
> Trying to compare Jiraiya's knowledge of his pupil and master, to his knowledge of Shinobi whose abilities were the stuff of folklore is intellectually dishonest on your part, and you know it. That's the last I'll say on this matter.
> ...



 the ability to use all 5 elements means you have the affinity for all 5. which jiraiya didn't even know sarutobi his teacher could do 

goes to show you, how little he knew. 

thing is you are proved wrong everytime by rocky or anyone else, yet proceed with this simple delusion that you cant be wrong


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## Turrin (Jan 24, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> Which battle are you referring to then


This one:
What about the Gedō Mazō?



> Minato should've been maxed out what more could he had done , his bread and butter revolved around seals and FTG he had Hax I don't really know how much more he couldve done and what Minato left this world with and by the time Jiraiya left this world not knowing about Madara/Obito eye of the moon plan what he had should've been enough


Minato could have done more. Mastering Senjutsu and adding an element to Rasengan for starters.



> I'm talking Rikudo Lites , Trans , Kurama, Perfect Susanoo ect


My point is we don't know what really made Hanzo so strong, and we've seen non Rikudo shit, put people close to that level like with Gai and 8-Gates. So while i'm not going to advocate for Prime-Hanzo being that strong it's certainly plausible



> I more think it says that they are all on the same level


To me it's fairly clear that Hanzo is stronger. Jiraiya is not going to be in disbelief that Akatsuki Leader beat Hanzo, who bossed around Orochimaru and Itachi (two characters You'd probably also put in that level), if that were not true.



Hussain said:


> There is no point of debating Hanzo's hype.
> 
> 1- Jiraiya's statement applies only to the living characters. Why? Because they are talking about a character
> that killed him, and it couldn't have been a dead character for Jiraiya to make that possibility to begin with. So,
> including the dead characters is not the smartest thing.


If Jiraiya knew dead characters that were stronger than Hanzo, he would not be in disbelief that Akatsuki-Leader could be stronger Hanzo, as he would have known someone who possessed that sort of strength. 



> We know for a fact that Kishi makes things up as he goes and he admitted as much. How do we know that
> at that point of time he already planned the Kages, Edo Kages...etc and their abilities? Well, we simply do not
> know that, and chances are, he did not.


Were not talking Hashirama here, were talking Minato, Hiruzen, Jiraiya himself, etc.. I. E. characters Jiriaya knew well. You don't see the claim in here being that Hanzo > Hashirama / Madara



> Altho Hanzo did not get much time to show his abilities, but neither did any other ET (besides madara and itachi obviously), and with the little time we got from him, he was not really that impressive, nor do we know anything so impressive about his abilities whether it may be Shunshin or his poison.


Why do you say Hanzo was not that impressive first off? Secondly considering how unimpressive Rustiness made Naruto and Sasuke in Gaiden against someone they should have obliterated, it's obvious Kishi unrealistically thinks Rustiness is an excuse for absolute shit performances. 

As far as his abilities not being impressive, Ibusei is one of the best summons in the manga given the deadliness of it's poison gas, and Hanzo's poison breath is broken. It's hard for abilities to be impressive though when going up against one of the few men in the world outright immune to them.



> Regardless of Kishi's original intentions for him, at the time of the War Arc it seems like Kishi linked him to that
> Samurai and/or at best Chiyo who seems to have fought him several times. So, his level seems to be with them.


Chiyo fought against Ibusei's multiple times, I.E she as the Suna medic was probably in charge of treating those who Hanzo's  Gas'd. Plus Chiyo was probably a very powerful High Tier herself in her Prime, considering her performance when extremely Old, and how she also went up against characters like Tsunade and the White-Fang.



> However, this time, we know for a fact that the Sannin did in fact change and got their most powerful jutsu later on
> like with Tsunade's seal (which Oro did not know about in part 1), or Oro's jutsu that Hiruzen was surprised that he
> did complete it or whatnot....etc
> 
> So, Hanzo's fight with the Sannin is not really as valid.


The Sannin even w/o these things are still incredibly powerful. For example if we look at the neo Sannin, Naruto w/o Kurama/SM, Sasuke w/o MS/EMS, Sakura w/o Byakugo, would still be an incredibly powerful team.  And then the context should also be considered, the flashback was used to illustrated why Jiraiya felt it so unbelievable that Hanzo could be defeated, so it's clearly suppose to be seen as an incredible feat of strength on Hanzo's part.



Hasan said:


> Rinnegan can't "grant" affinities, if you're born with them, and Jiraiya makes no mention of them in the first place. He said Nagato 'could use all 5 nature transformations, which is unheard of in a single person'. I took affinity more the along the lines of it implying mastery, and vice versa.


Yamato: Most people's chakra naturally lean towards a certain nature...
The Uchia clan, for example, were full of people with an affinity to fire,
thus, they were exceptionally skilled with fire element jutsu.

Kakashi: You , on the other hand, are a zero.
We have no idea which nature your chakra leans towards.
So we're going to check with these cards.

DBIII, Before the straining can start, it is necessary to know which Nature one is matched with. The best way is to pour chakra into some chakra-responsive paper, and see how it alters it. 

Everyone has a natural leaning towards one nature or another; that's considered their affinity they are born with. Some characters are born with multiple affinities, like Kekkai Genkai users. However Rinnegan users gain affinities for every element, which is why they are able to combine many different elements together to use Kekkai Mora (which excel beyond Kekkai Tota 3 elements). 

I'm fairly certain that what Kishimoto meant via Jiriaya's dialog is that Nagato was unheard off because he had an affinity for all 5 elements, not simply that he had learned how to use all 5 elements.



> The Viz leaves out the impression that Jiraiya knew no one whose strength exceeded Hanzou's. Instead, it gives out the impression that Hanzou was a formidable ninja, who according to Jiraiya, couldn't have been beaten by a single person, considering the Sannin (three of them) struggled against him. . . which is fine


Viz gives the same impression, with the no matter how strong bit, and the prolific usage of "unbelievable!". It's clear that Jiriaya can not imagine someone more powerful than Hanzo, and it would very strange for him to act that way, if he did indeed know characters more powerful than Hanzo, especially if he himself was more powerful than Hanzo.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 24, 2016)

> This one:
> pretty good



Hanzo was ambushed and half of his village revolted because Hanzo hid like a coward , he lost respect and honor amongst the people in Ame so nagato was able to overthrow him Hanzo didn't just lose out in strength but also in resolve and leadership 



> Minato could have done more. Mastering Senjutsu and adding an element to Rasengan for starters.



I don't think he could've done better with Sage Mode , Jiraiya lived longer and trained more and still didn't prefect it , then Minato said himself he was no good with it , there are some things shinobi just can never get good at like Jiraiya said about Genjutsu ect FRS wouldn't put Minato at a level to what Naruto did to ultimately become the savior 




> My point is we don't know what really made Hanzo so strong, and we've seen non Rikudo shit, put people close to that level like with Gai and 8-Gates. So while i'm not going to advocate for Prime-Hanzo being that strong it's certainly plausible



8 Gates doesnt compare to those abilities because you can only use it one time and it kills the user , now could he have an ability like that where he can build up enough poison to fill a 100 degree radius or something then sure but that still isn't as hax as Kurama, EMS shit that you can spam all day long



> To me it's fairly clear that Hanzo is stronger. Jiraiya is not going to be in disbelief that Akatsuki Leader beat Hanzo, who bossed around Orochimaru and Itachi (two characters You'd probably also put in that level), if that were not true.



The atakuski leader could've been beaten by Jiraiya


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## Hasan (Jan 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Plus Chiyo was probably a very powerful High Tier herself in her Prime, considering her performance when extremely Old, and how she also went up against characters like Tsunade and the White-Fang.



She never fought the White Fang. 



> Yamato: Most people's chakra naturally lean towards a certain nature...
> The Uchia clan, for example, were full of people with an affinity to fire,
> thus, they were exceptionally skilled with fire element jutsu.



Yeah, most—

Hiruzen isn't "most" people. 

. . . And you do realize that Yamato said the exact same thing I said? Affinity implies mastery. Hiruzen was exceptionally skilled in the use of all five elements; he must have had affinity toward each of the five.



> Kakashi: You , on the other hand, are a zero.
> We have no idea which nature your chakra leans towards.
> So we're going to check with these cards.



You skipped the part where that was Kakashi's response to Naruto's remark that Sasuke had two affinities. Later, when Yamato explains that he has affinities for Suiton and Doton, Kakashi points out a jounin typically has two, and that he himself has multiple.



> Everyone has a natural leaning towards one nature or another; that's considered their affinity they are born with. Some characters are born with multiple affinities, like Kekkai Genkai users. However Rinnegan users gain affinities for every element, which is why they are able to combine many different elements together to use Kekkai Mora (which excel beyond Kekkai Tota 3 elements).



Rinnegan can't grant something that you're supposed to have—naturally. You say affinity is something a person naturally recline towards by birth, and then go on to say that an eye technique "grants" that. 

Muu taught Jinton to Ohnoki, which means what exactly? 



> I'm fairly certain that what Kishimoto meant via Jiriaya's dialog is that Nagato was unheard off because he had an affinity for all 5 elements, not simply that he had learned how to use all 5 elements.



All translations are rather straightforward to leave any room for ambiguity. Also, since you made a mention of Kekkai Moura and Kekkai Touta, it helps to know that those were conceptually non-existent back then.



> Viz gives the same impression, with the no matter how strong bit, and the prolific usage of "unbelievable!". It's clear that Jiriaya can not imagine someone more powerful than Hanzo, and it would very strange for him to act that way, if he did indeed know characters more powerful than Hanzo, especially if he himself was more powerful than Hanzo.



Oh please. 

_I can't believe he was beaten by one man ≠ Pain couldn't possibly exceed his power. I can't believe he was beaten by one man_.​
Your translation portrays Hanzou as having absolute maximum strength. The Viz, and other translations [by HBK, cnet, Nihongaeri] leave that out.


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> Hanzo was ambushed and half of his village revolted because Hanzo hid like a coward , he lost respect and honor amongst the people in Ame so nagato was able to overthrow him Hanzo didn't just lose out in strength but also in resolve and leadership


I'm still not sure what this has to do with Pain saying he beat Hanzo in that individual battle, because Hanzo became Rusty.



> I don't think he could've done better with Sage Mode , Jiraiya lived longer and trained more and still didn't prefect it , then Minato said himself he was no good with it , there are some things shinobi just can never get good at like Jiraiya said about Genjutsu ect FRS wouldn't put Minato at a level to what Naruto did to ultimately become the savior


The Toads still believed Jiraiya in his Mid 50s could improve his Senjutsu usage, so to me Minato far from his Prime could as well.  I also don't really follow what your point with this is anymore.



> 8 Gates doesnt compare to those abilities because you can only use it one time and it kills the user , now could he have an ability like that where he can build up enough poison to fill a 100 degree radius or something then sure but that still isn't as hax as Kurama, EMS shit that you can spam all day long


Forget 8th-Gate then, and let's talk Edo-Tensei. To me Edo-Tensei has the potential to match shit like EMS and Summoning Kurama in power. Again it's not like i'm advocating for Hanzo being this strong, as I said he could simply be as strong as Nagato and be above Minato in my book, but on the point that there are no non Hagoromo hax abilities that can compete with that shit I disagree. 



> The atakuski leader could've been beaten by Jiraiya


W/ Intel not straight up. And again I feel like your dancing around answering my point, which is why would Jiraiya be shocked that Akatsuki Leader defeated Hanzo, if Hanzo was on Jiraiya's level, is Jiraiya so arrogant that he believes no one could beat him?


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2016)

Hasan said:


> She never fought the White Fang.
> .


It's not for sure, but imo the Data-book and manga imply that she did. Ether way all the manga says is she fought against Ibusei, and considering her strength as an old Woman, and how Taijutsu was suppose to be one of her specialities before going over the hill, she was probably pretty dam strong back in the day.



> Yeah, most?
> 
> Hiruzen isn't "most" people.
> 
> . . . And you do realize that Yamato said the exact same thing I said? Affinity implies mastery. Hiruzen was exceptionally skilled in the use of all five elements; he must have had affinity toward each of the fi


Your ignoring the Naturally leaning part. Everyone leans to one element no matter which others ones they master, that's why Kakashi's paper still crumbles indicating his affinity for Raiton despite him mastering many more elements.



> Rinnegan can't grant something that you're supposed to have?naturally. You say affinity is something a person naturally recline towards by birth, and then go on to say that an eye technique "grants" that.


People don't naturally have affinities for every Element. The Rinnegan grants that. So If Nagato say picked up the chakra paper, it would cut, crumble, burn, etc.. all at the same time as he naturally leans towards all elements.



> All translations are rather straightforward to leave any room for ambiguity. Also, since you made a mention of Kekkai Moura and Kekkai Touta, it helps to know that those were conceptually non-existent back then.


If you want to talk semantics of the translation rather then intent, Jiraiya clearly says all 6 Nature Changes, while Hiruzen has only demonstrated 5; and we don't really know what the 6th is. So that right there invalidates your Hiruzen objection.



> I can't believe he was beaten by one man ≠ Pain couldn't possibly exceed his power. I can't believe he was beaten by one man.
> Your translation portrays Hanzou as having absolute maximum strength. The Viz, and other translations [by HBK, cnet, Nihongaeri] leave that out.


HBK and Nihongaeri translations aren't worth discussing as their quality is Low. Speaking towards the Viz translation, it clearly implies the same thing

"No matter how powerful this Pain might be... there were truly no shinobi that didn't know the name of the previous Amegakuru leader Hanzo of the Giant Salamander"

That line right there clearly implies that Jiraiya believes no one can exceed Hanzo in strength, hence the "not matter how powerful" part. 

As for my translation I'd need to see the Raw again, to know why I translated it the way I did, as it's been a long time, but I maintain that implication is still in the Viz translation so whatever.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 25, 2016)

> I'm still not sure what this has to do with Pain saying he beat Hanzo in that individual battle, because Hanzo became Rusty.



Like I said He was ambushed and ransacked because he lost his nerve and hid it was more than just his battle prowess because he wasn't prepared at all he had no life , no desire to do anything but hide , yes his skills in battle diminished but more importantly his resolve was gone and it made him an easier target for Pain to ambush 



> The Toads still believed Jiraiya in his Mid 50s could improve his Senjutsu usage, so to me Minato far from his Prime could as well.  I also don't really follow what your point with this is anymore.



Minato said he was flat out not good with it and it was something he chose not to utilize in battle , the point is that Minato had enough in his heyday to be a savior before the eye of the moon plan kicked off




> Forget 8th-Gate then, and let's talk Edo-Tensei. To me Edo-Tensei has the potential to match shit like EMS and Summoning Kurama in power. Again it's not like i'm advocating for Hanzo being this strong, as I said he could simply be as strong as Nagato and be above Minato in my book, but on the point that there are no non Hagoromo hax abilities that can compete with that shit I disagree.



Edo Tensei couldn't compare to what the full capability of what the Rikudo lites could pull off , and a matter of fact wasn't it the Rikudo Lite Sage Mode and Senju Cells that strengthened the technique ?




> W/ Intel not straight up. And again I feel like your dancing around answering my point, which is why would Jiraiya be shocked that Akatsuki Leader defeated Hanzo, if Hanzo was on Jiraiya's level, is Jiraiya so arrogant that he believes no one could beat him?



I'm in belief that while not arrogant Jiraiya had to believe he was one of the baddest men walking the verse seeing as how up to that point the Sannin were the most hyped characters that were alive at the moment , so he's thinking like shit I'm as strong as hanzo and someone beat him so that means someone is above the damn Sannin level as well who the fuck could it be because in his eyes being above the Pinnacle of shinobi at that time  35.5 datebook score is pretty unbelievable .


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 25, 2016)

In my opinion I think the whole Hanzo hype is one of the those things that got retconned to hell.

By hype Hanzo would fodder stomp Itachi
By feats Jiraiya or Itachi would fodderize Hanzo


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## Hazuki (Jan 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Putting aside the fact that Jiraiya's statements obviously place Prime-Hanzo above Jiriaya himself, .



i don't think that prime hanzo was above jiriaya 

jiraiya himself was shocked when he heard that hanzo was deafeat by a single man  but the sannin still planned to possibily  fight and defeat pain ( the one who destroy an whole village with hanzo include)

so if jiraiya was weaker than hanzo , he wouldn't have took the risk to fight someone who beat hanzo and his village

jiraiya felt enough confident to fight pain during all his fight ( until he get ambushed)

i don't know about itachi , but for jiraiya , by logic  , he is without doubt stronger than hanzo for those reason i said


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2016)

Hazuki said:


> i don't think that prime hanzo was above jiriaya
> 
> jiraiya himself was shocked when he heard that hanzo was deafeat by a single man  but the sannin still planned to possibily  fight and defeat pain ( the one who destroy an whole village with hanzo include)
> 
> ...


Jiraiya didn't entirely believe the Amegakuru Fodder, hence the "Unbelievable". Again I will ask why would Jiraiya be shocked that Akatsuki-Leader could beat Hanzo, if Hanzo was weaker them himself. It makes no sense.


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## Hasan (Jan 26, 2016)

Turrin said:


> It's not for sure, but imo the Data-book and manga imply that she did. Ether way all the manga says is she fought against Ibusei, and considering her strength as an old Woman, and how Taijutsu was suppose to be one of her specialities before going over the hill, she was probably pretty dam strong back in the day.



That's just a reference to her wanting to avenge her son's death, because the White Fang killed him. I'm not really arguing what you think of Chiyo, though. Just clarifying this tiny misconception you had. 



> Your ignoring the Naturally leaning part. Everyone leans to one element no matter which others ones they master, that's why Kakashi's paper still crumbles indicating his affinity for Raiton despite him mastering many more elements.



I'm not. They discussed this thing over an entire chapter worth of pages— :amazed

_"Generally, everyone has chakra that fits one of those categories. For example, the Uchiha clan had fire natured chakra. *Thus they were skilled* at Katon no Jutsu."

"If it's wind, they use Fuuton. If it's lightning, they use Raiton. For example, Chidori is one type of the Raiton jutsu."

"*So... it means Sasuke has both Fire and Lightning...*"

"... And that you have none..."

//

"What!? Yamato-taichou has two too?"

"Those in *jounin class usually have at least two*... *I can also control elements other than lightning.*"_​
. . . The part which you evidently ignored. 



> People don't naturally have affinities for every Element. The Rinnegan grants that. [snip] all at the same time as he naturally leans towards all elements.



Um, I'm only trying to point towards conflict in your own assertions. Allow me to break them down:

*Premise 1:* Affinity is something one is born with.

*Premise 2:* People naturally have affinity for one element.

*Premise 3:* People don't naturally have affinities for every element.

*Premise 4:* People can master more elements, but they can't gain more affinities.

*Premise 5:* Rinnegan grants affinities.​
If premises 1-4 are true → premise 5 is wrong i.e. Rinnegan can't grant affinities.
If premise 5 is true → any or all of the premises 1-4 are wrong i.e. your definition of 'affinity' is wrong.

Pick one, mate. You can't have it both ways.



> So If Nagato say picked up the chakra paper, it would cut, crumble, burn, etc..



That is nonsense, and you know it. The chakra paper responds to chakra channelled through it, and the chakra that you channel is the chakra you mold. It's used to test your chakra type if you don't know it, but that's not its intrinsic property. 



> If you want to talk semantics of the translation rather then intent, Jiraiya clearly says all 6 Nature Changes, while Hiruzen has only demonstrated 5; and we don't really know what the 6th is. So that right there invalidates your Hiruzen objection.



It was  in the 7th edition of the volume.



takL said:


> sry i dont have time to read all but
> 
> in the vol, that jyraiyas coment was corrected and nagato got all the 5  elements





> HBK and Nihongaeri translations aren't worth discussing as their quality is Low. Speaking towards the Viz translation, it clearly implies the same thing
> 
> "No matter how powerful this Pain might be... there were truly no shinobi that didn't know the name of the previous Amegakuru leader Hanzo of the Giant Salamander"
> 
> ...



Read the complete thing, mate. "No matter how strong this Pain may be..." as a self-contained statement makes no sense. Jiraiya said that Hanzou was a renowned figure compared to him. Legendary ≠ Unbeatable. In fact, Jiraiya wasn't even shocked that Hanzou was beaten, rather he was shocked that _one man_ took Hanzou down. Why? Because he recalls the Sannin couldn't do.

Jiraiya's argument is all around terrible, though. But that's not our contention here.


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## Mercurial (Jan 26, 2016)

Hanzo is like some kind of irrelevant fanfiction character, power level wise. Itachi solos.


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