# Fujitora vs. Marco



## trance (Nov 11, 2013)

Location: Zoro vs. Mr. 1

Intel: Full

Mindset: Bloodlusted

Distance: 35m


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 11, 2013)

Fujitora shoots a bird down using a meteor, now that's what I call some hunting.


----------



## Katou (Nov 11, 2013)

Marco Flexes


----------



## Freechoice (Nov 11, 2013)

Well I consider Fujitora to be on par with the pre skip admirals.

Marco loses to the pre skip admirals. Albeit extreme/very high diff.

Therefore Fujitora wins.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 11, 2013)

Fujitora was hurling an entire warship while casually eating a bowl of ramen. Yeah Marco doesn't have a prayer here.

Mid difficulty for Issho.


----------



## Goomoonryong (Nov 11, 2013)

Fujitora wins high diff.


----------



## November (Nov 11, 2013)

Fujifukingtora drops some meteors.


----------



## RF (Nov 11, 2013)

It can go either way.


----------



## Vengeance (Nov 11, 2013)

Fujitora. I consider him to be a bit weaker than the pre skip admirals, but still above Marco.


----------



## Katou (Nov 11, 2013)

Tora~Nyan eats some Rice Crackers and Pocky while killing Marco with ease


----------



## blueframe01 (Nov 11, 2013)

Until Fujitora shows some feats besides dropping Meteors, I'm inclined to give it to Marco. While Fuji's meteor fall would probably be the single strongest ability among the Admirals, its nowhere near as hard to dodge compared to the original admiral trios abilities.  In fact i doubt Marco would have much trouble evading them at all. Add that to his intangibility, i don't think he is anywhere near as deadly as the original trio (at least for now). 
Marco in the other hand was pretty much equal to Kizaru through the war. Slightly weaker he may be, but that alone should be enough to put him above Fujitora, at least until we get to see him fully using his abilities


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 11, 2013)

Fuji fucking tora


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2013)

blueframe01 said:


> Until Fujitora shows some feats besides dropping Meteors, I'm inclined to give it to Marco. While Fuji's meteor fall would probably be the single strongest ability among the Admirals, its nowhere near as hard to dodge compared to the original admiral trios abilities.  In fact i doubt Marco would have much trouble evading them at all. Add that to his intangibility, i don't think he is anywhere near as deadly as the original trio (at least for now).
> *Marco in the other hand was pretty much equal to Kizaru through the war.* Slightly weaker he may be, but that alone should be enough to put him above Fujitora, at least until we get to see him fully using his abilities


Once again, Marco's regen is the only thing that gives the Admirals trouble, and his attacks didn't do much in the war. Besides, meteors aren't the only thing in Fujitora's arsenal.
Fujitora takes this high/extreme diff.


----------



## RF (Nov 11, 2013)

> Once again, Marco's regen is the only thing that gives the Admirals trouble



Uhm no.

Marco has the strength, speed and all other physical abilites required to give the admirals a tough fight. 

If you gave Coby Marco's fruit he still wouldn't have lasted 2 seconds against the admirals.


----------



## Vengeance (Nov 11, 2013)

Defending Marco and co throughout all threads I see


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Marco has the strength, speed and all other physical abilites required to give the admirals a tough fight.


His attacks didn't do much in the war though (kicked Kizaru into a crowd, he came out walking, ambushed Akainu, only managed to irritate him). He can keep up with them and hold his own, but until Marco shows better offense, I don't see him winning this.


----------



## RF (Nov 11, 2013)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> His attacks didn't do much in the war though (kicked Kizaru into a crowd, he came out walking, ambushed Akainu, only managed to irritate him). He can keep up with them and hold his own, but until Marco shows better offense, I don't see him winning this.



He attacked 3 people in the war. One blocked his attack, the other attack was aimed at a weapon, the last one was mitigated by logia intagability. And they were kicks, physical attacks.

Honestly, I can't believe this is even argued. Marco's offensive abilites are not sub-par, and they never were. 



> Defending Marco and co throughout all threads I see



Not my fault that the battledome is an influx of Whitebeard pirate threads.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> He attacked 3 people in the war. One blocked his attack, the other attack was aimed at a weapon, the last one was mitigated by logia intagability. *And they were kicks, physical attacks.*
> 
> Honestly, I can't believe this is even argued. Marco's offensive abilites are not sub-par, and they never were.


I don't think Marco would have held back on his opponents, especially when Akainu killed Ace. If he shows some more offensive moves, he may have a chance, but until then, Fujitora takes this more often than not.


----------



## Mihawk (Nov 11, 2013)

This could go either way. 
I consider Fujitora and Marco both being weaker than any of the Pre TS Admirals.

Yet both are on the spectrum of the proverbial "Admiral level" measuring bar of strength.


----------



## JustSumGuy (Nov 11, 2013)

Fujitora's been awesome and we haven't even seen all he can do.

I'll give it to the admiral high diff.


----------



## Neruc (Nov 11, 2013)

Can go either way.

Marco would give any of the PTS Admiral a hard fight,and I believe that Fujitora isn't as strong as any of them.


----------



## Sherlōck (Nov 11, 2013)

I win High difficulty because of Marco's annoying regen.


----------



## Kai (Nov 11, 2013)

Marco can dance with any of the admirals and even pressure them, but he can't actually beat any of them in a fight to the very end.

Fujitora should win this, although with high difficulty.


----------



## Furinji Saiga (Nov 11, 2013)

Fuji takes it between high-extreme difficulty.


----------



## Canute87 (Nov 11, 2013)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Fujitora was hurling an entire warship while casually eating a bowl of ramen. Yeah Marco doesn't have a prayer here.
> 
> Mid difficulty for Issho.



Warships don't have haki, combat prowess or have regen abilities.


----------



## Sayonara (Nov 11, 2013)

Have to see more from both of them in terms of full fighting style and extent  and limit of both of their abilities. For example a big point I am not even sure if Marcos flight gives him advantage or for as much as we know Fuji may be able to ground Marco with his 'gravitational' powers rendering flight useless/nerfed.

I dont start looking at ranks or titles at this level unless your WB/Rpger level its going to be tight fight regardless.Everything including matchups in fighting style could alter outcome when overall levels are matched. I place both marco and fuji at that same level so this could go either way for now, high to extreme.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 11, 2013)

Hmm tough to choose.

I like both of them a lot.
But Marco has a cool looking DF and a weird speaking quirk.
Fujitora seems kinda like a cool guy but I want to see more from him.
I'll go with Marco.


----------



## Dunno (Nov 11, 2013)

Fujitora mid-high diff.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 11, 2013)

Fujitora high diff. He can dance with the admirals but in the end when it comes to hurting them he strugles greatly with that.


----------



## Kid (Nov 11, 2013)

dat Marco keeps on getting these fights with them Admirals

He loses


----------



## Halcyon (Nov 11, 2013)

All these Marco threads...

Fuji is my guess, but it won't be an easy win.


----------



## RF (Nov 11, 2013)

Kid said:


> dat Marco keeps on getting these fights with them Admirals
> 
> He loses



Marco was equal to Kizaru throughout the war and was only down when he used seastone.

Why would Whitebeard's best fighter be below EVERY admiral?


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Marco was equal to Kizaru throughout the war and was only down when he used seastone.
> 
> Why would Whitebeard's best fighter be below EVERY admiral?



Because the admirals are the WG's strongest force, the pirates strongest force are the yonkou, these two counter each other , more or less. A commander of a yonkou is not going to beat an admiral.


----------



## Bitty (Nov 11, 2013)

yea the admirals are the WG's strongest force. But there's _3 of them_, while there's only 1 yonkou captain. Not to mention they also have a FA who was once an admiral & Garp the Hero who fought Roger countless times. oh yea, having the Shichibukai doesn't hurt either.

 the pirates are the strongest force in this manga overall & WB was the world's strongest man himself, above the admirals, so it wouldn't be far-fetched if his first mate was on the same level as just one of the WG's many powerful fighters....especially a newly recruited one who barely has any feats or proper showing.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 11, 2013)

If I'm not mistaken; it was said that the WG with its admirals and warlords were there to counter the yonkou , which means all 4 of them and their forces, not just one of them. So yeah .. Marco ain't beating an admiral in a straight up 1 vs 1 fight , I'll hold to that belief until I see Marco pushing teach to his limit.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 11, 2013)

I hope Teach beats Marco around high diff. Mid diff would make people say that Teach is above admirals.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 11, 2013)

So far, we have yet to see what Marco is fully capable of and same goes with Fujitora. Therefore, we can only judge this on what we see.

Most people blindly say Fujitora win, simply because he’s an Admiral and blindly disregard his short coming. He not only failed to capture Law even with the help of Don Flamingo but got trolled and left with a hole in his battle ship.

Let’s look at what Fujitora is capable off:
•	Ping down gravity - wasn’t enough to pin law down, so it’s a non-factor in this fight
•	Make holes on the ground – Marco can fly
•	Levitate big things like a battleship – Law can also do this. To add, he was too slow to control the battleship therefore resulting in a big hole on the bottom.
•	Drag meteors from space - Yes, this is impressive, but NOT even 1 of them hit law? This shows that despite those being meteors, it can easily be evaded.

The only way Fujitora can hurt Marco is if his meteors lands, which is difficult to say the least. But to add, with Marco regenerating abilities, even if those meteors lands, it wouldn’t do too much damage. Not to mention if Marco plays it smart and fly above Fujitora, those metoers could cause trouble for this admiral.

So far, we’ve only see Marco kick, but those kicks are as devastating as any top tier’s attack which sends both Kizaru and Aokiji flying. Wwith a few smart kick to the head of this blind admiral and he could be down for the count.

It would not be an easy battle, but I see Marco taking this with high difficulties.


----------



## trance (Nov 11, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> *So far, we have yet to see what Marco is fully capable of and same goes with Fujitora. Therefore, we can only judge this on what we see.*
> Most people blindly say Fujitora win, simply because he?s an Admiral and blindly disregard his short coming. He not only failed to capture Law even with the help of Don Flamingo but got trolled and left with a hole in his battle ship.
> 
> Let?s look at what Fujitora is capable off:
> ...



So, you say that we don't know what either is fully capable of yet you say that Marco wins with high difficulty even though Fujitora has been casual all this time? Stop talking out your ass dude.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 11, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> So, you say that we don't know what either is fully capable of yet you say that Marco wins with high difficulty even though Fujitora has been casual all this time? Stop talking out your ass dude.



While Fujitora has being casual, he did not achieve any feats. If he casually defeats law, then he's got some credit, but not when letting the enemy destroy his battleship while being casual. 

I say, based on what we've seen on both, Marco takes this. For all we know, Fujitora's power is coming from his sword and Marco could do a better job that I predicted by out smarting him and steal that sword.


----------



## trance (Nov 11, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> While Fujitora has being casual, he did not achieve any feats. If he casually defeats law, then he's got some credit, but not when letting the enemy destroy his battleship while being casual.



And did Marco achieve? 

His kicks did jack shit to all three Admirals since none suffered any injuries. 

Face it, Marco is subpar to an Admiral.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 11, 2013)

I think Fujitora would be able to take this with high difficulty with his meteor spamming and all, and his control over gravity which he can probably trap marco with said gravity. Marco should be slightly weaker than Kizaru, and Fujitora is also probably weaker than the original Admirals as well. This is really a toss up. Marco excell's in the Defense department, whilst Fujitora's strong points are attack... speed is quite debatable, but I felt as though marco's performances in the WB arc were omitted as that was the perfect chance to exploit WB's first mate's flamboyance.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 11, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> And did Marco achieve?
> 
> His kicks did jack shit to all three Admirals since none suffered any injuries.
> 
> Face it, Marco is subpar to an Admiral.



His kicks sends 2 admiral flying and all 3 Admirals did nothing to him in fair fights. Name 1 fair feats from the admirals against Marco?

The only debatable feat that the Admirals had over Marco is the latter encouter with Akainu, but people always downgrade how much damage Marco took with 2 lasers through his chest while devil-fruitless (damage equivalent to a normal person getting snipe with a riffle twice to the chest).

They were also unable to stop him when he was flying to the platform, causing the Garp to have flex his biceps.


----------



## trance (Nov 12, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> His kicks sends 2 admiral flying and all 3 Admirals did nothing to him in fair fights. *Name 1 fair feats from the admirals against Marco?*



How bout I name several fair feats from the Admirals against WB, someone a lot stronger than Marco? 



sparklingwater said:


> They were also unable to stop him when he was flying to the platform, causing the Garp to have flex his biceps.



-Akainu was dealing with WB
-Kuzan was dealing with Jozu
-Kizaru could care less

Your argument is invalid.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 12, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> How bout I name several fair feats from the Admirals against WB, someone a lot stronger than Marco?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair feats from WB? That's just dumb, because it was never fair to begining with because WB is firstly sick, then impale.

You should let the goons handle threads like this.


----------



## trance (Nov 12, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> Fair feats from WB? That's just dumb, because it was never fair to begining with because WB is firstly sick, then impale.



Doesn't matter. WB was still far superior to Marco. Admirals > Marco. 



sparklingwater said:


> You should let the goons handle threads like this.



The goons are small fry compared to me.


----------



## Harard (Nov 12, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> Doesn't matter. WB was still far superior to Marco. Admirals > Marco.



WB was far superior to everybody. He was on a whole other level.


----------



## trance (Nov 12, 2013)

Harard said:


> WB was far superior to everybody. He was on a whole other level.



He was superior to the Admirals, not _far_ superior. 

WB would literally oneshot Marco.


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Nov 12, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> How bout I name several fair feats from the Admirals against WB, someone a lot stronger than Marco? j



Power scaling doesn't work that way. If Marco can bother an Admiral and Admirals can bother WB that means Marco can likely bother WB too not being far off. 

You'd have to show otherwise.


----------



## trance (Nov 12, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Power scaling doesn't work that way. If Marco can bother an Admiral and Admirals can bother WB that means Marco can likely bother WB too not being far off.
> 
> You'd have to show otherwise.



WB > Admirals > Marco. That means WB >> Marco. What's hard to understand about that? WB mid diffs Marco.


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Nov 12, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> WB > Admirals > Marco. That means WB >> Marco. What's hard to understand about that? WB mid diffs Marco.



The entire asinine post. You didn't say WB>Admirals>Marco.

You side-stepped the entire question sparklingwater had for you because you had shit to say.

You didn't prove a gap between Marco&the Admirals. That means whatever gap you think exists between WB&the Admirals you also have believe exists between WB and Marco.

Until you prove a gap comments like Admirals fought WB just means Marco can fight him too.


----------



## trance (Nov 12, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> The entire asinine post. You didn't say WB>Admirals>Marco.
> 
> You side-stepped the entire question sparklingwater had for you because you had shit to say.
> 
> ...



-Marco did zero damage with a straight kick to Aokiji's ribcage? 
-Marco did jackshit to Akainu while bloodlusted?

There's nothing that puts Marco on Akainu's level. 

That's not to say, that Akainu would easily dispatch of him. Portrayal wise, Marco has a strong one. He was suggested to have been able to stop Teach's advancement in the New World. 

Akainu would need high difficulty to put down Marco, just like WB needed high difficulty to beat Akainu.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 13, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> The entire asinine post. You didn't say WB>Admirals>Marco.
> 
> You side-stepped the entire question sparklingwater had for you because you had shit to say.
> 
> ...


Marco kicked Kizaru into a crowd...nothing happened. After Akainu killed Ace, Marco *and* Vista, in a bloodlusted state, ambushed Akainu...they managed to *irritate* him. Not long after, along came a Whitebeard who had just gone through a war and had one foot in the grave...who then handed Akainu his ass, even when Akainu blew off half his head. Until he shows more feats, Marco isn't going to give his captain as close a fight as the Admirals did, Whitebeard's DF would wear down Marco's regen faster than the Admirals ever could.


----------



## Harard (Nov 13, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> He was superior to the Admirals, not _far_ superior.
> 
> WB would literally oneshot Marco.



Enough with the lebron spamming.

All it took WB was two blows to knowck Akainu out. Yes, WB is far superior to Marco as well as the admirals.


----------



## trance (Nov 13, 2013)

Harard said:


> Enough with the lebron spamming.



Why? Does it bother you? 



Harard said:


> *All it took WB was two blows to knowck Akainu out. *Yes, WB is far superior to Marco as well as the admirals.



Except Akainu was *still* conscious.


----------



## tanman (Nov 13, 2013)

The Marco downplay is turrible.
I have absolutely no idea which way this fight would go since Fujitora doesn't really have any combat feats. For now, I would favor Marco just because he has _actually_ had fights, but that might change.


----------



## blueframe01 (Nov 13, 2013)

tanman said:


> The Marco downplay is turrible.
> I have absolutely no idea which way this fight would go since Fujitora doesn't really have any combat feats. For now, I would favor Marco just because he has _actually_ had fights, but that might change.



Exactly. Dropping down meteors (who would be easily dodge-able for someone like Marco) is the only thing Fujitora has done and it seems like its enough to put him above Marco. We have no idea how fast he is, or how hard is his hits, or how capable is his DF against top tiers. But hey, he is an admiral, so he must be wanked hard.


----------



## Harard (Nov 13, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> Why? Does it bother you?
> 
> 
> 
> Except Akainu was *still* conscious.



Conscious but still unable to move. Whitebeard could have finished him off right then and there if he wanted to.


----------



## Typhon (Nov 13, 2013)

blueframe01 said:


> Exactly. Dropping down meteors (who would be easily dodge-able for someone like Marco) is the only thing Fujitora has done and it seems like its enough to put him above Marco. We have no idea how fast he is, or how hard is his hits, or how capable is his DF against top tiers. But hey, he is an admiral, so he must be wanked hard.



Come on now. 

No Fugitora hasn't just dropped down meteors since his showing. He has used gravity or pressure twice now, which is an amazing skill to have.

You say Marco can easily dodge meteors. I say Fugitora puts pressure on Marco to keep him stationary while dropping a meteor. There will be no easy dodging here.

On topic: Fugitora high difficulty.


----------



## trance (Nov 13, 2013)

Harard said:


> Conscious but still unable to move. Whitebeard could have finished him off right then and there if he wanted to.



While WB is indeed stronger, that fight had a fair amount of PIS involved (it was partly to set up for his confrontation with Teach). 

Had WB attacked directly, I'm sure it would have been much harder to put Akainu down since he would have option of countering his quakes with his magma instead of being forced to tank them.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 13, 2013)

blueframe01 said:


> Exactly. Dropping down meteors (who would be easily dodge-able for someone like Marco) is the only thing Fujitora has done and it seems like its enough to put him above Marco. We have no idea how fast he is, or how hard is his hits, or how capable is his DF against top tiers. *But hey, he is an admiral*, so he must be wanked hard.


That right there is the thing. Fujitora is an Admiral, one of the Marines Greatest Military Powers, his rank alone instantly tells you that he's insanely strong. IMHO, I don't think he's as strong as the original trio, but only by a slim margin. Marco can put a good fight, but until he's shown more firepower, he's not beating an Admiral.


Omnation said:


> Come on now.
> 
> No Fugitora hasn't just dropped down meteors since his showing. *He has used gravity or pressure twice now, which is an amazing skill to have.*
> 
> ...


Gold star. Fuji very likely has more gravity related tricks up his sleeve. It'll be fun seeing him use it alongside his sword.


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Nov 13, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> -Marco did zero damage with a straight kick to Aokiji's ribcage?
> -Marco did jackshit to Akainu while bloodlusted?
> 
> There's nothing that puts Marco on Akainu's level.
> ...



And the question was what did they do to him? Marco did about the same amount of damage to Kizaru&Aokiji as Garp did to him. I don't see anyone here claiming Garp isn't on Marco and the Admiral's level.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 13, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> While WB is indeed stronger, that fight had a fair amount of PIS involved (it was partly to set up for his confrontation with Teach).
> 
> Had WB attacked directly, I'm sure it would have been much harder to put Akainu down since he would have option of countering his quakes with his magma instead of being forced to tank them.



The thing as well is that Whitebeard lost half his head during that which is by all accounts a fatal injury. There is *no* way he would survive from that hence I really don't understand how anyone can classify that as any thing close to a comprehensive win for Whitebeard ..... I mean what's the point in pinning someone down for a few minutes if you end up dieing as a result? It's not a feasible way to fight. 

The point anyway is that it's not an incident you can use to draw any broad conclusions of their respective strengths for the context of any battle that they may face with one another. 

There's no doubt that Whitebeard is stronger and would eventually prevail in a straight up fight against Sakazuki, but assuming he wants to survive at the end of it, it'd be nothing short of extreme difficulty.


----------



## trance (Nov 14, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> And the question was what did they do to him? *Marco did about the same amount of damage to Kizaru&Aokiji as Garp did to him.*



Umm, what? 

Garp *did* hurt Marco. He put a bruise on Marco's face. That scene was likely meant to demonstrate Garp's superiority over Marco.



Ryuksgelus said:


> I don't see anyone here claiming Garp isn't on Marco and the Admiral's level.



It's almost for certain Garp is above Marco. Not sure about the Admirals. In the War, IMO, it was clear that aside from WB, the Admirals were the strongest combatants in the war (or at least Sakazuki was).


----------



## marco55656 (Nov 14, 2013)

I still don't understand why marco is believed to be inferior to an admiral, it was WB pirates VS Marines, so pretty much WB, marco, Vista, Jozu vs sengoku, garp, akainu, aokiji, kizaru, and they were still a legit threat, marco was bouncing around fucking up admirals and casually tanking strong attacks, at a complete disadvantage, yet hes still viewed inferior due to a fucking double team an admiral an strong vice admiral with seastone had to get on him.

We haven't even seen close to what marco's fruit allows to regenerate, yet people are like, "he's much below admirals because an admiral and a vice admiral with season subdued him"

IMO marco is atleast equal to the admirals.


----------



## Freechoice (Nov 14, 2013)

Is there any rational reasoning behind the implication that Fujitora is weaker than the original admirals?


----------



## tanman (Nov 14, 2013)

What said:


> Is there any rational reasoning behind the implication that Fujitora is weaker than the original admirals?



There's a lot of rational reasoning. In fact, there's all the rational reasoning.

a) Fujitora hasn't actually been in any fights.
b) Not all admirals have to be at the same level.
c) We never assume characters are as strong as they could possibly be. They work their way up not down.


----------



## Freechoice (Nov 14, 2013)

> a) Fujitora hasn't actually been in any fights.



What has that got to do with anything? We haven't seen the full potential of any of them. 



> b) Not all admirals have to be at the same level.



Of course they aren't. 

I'm not _that_ dense. 

However what I'm trying to say is for some reason it's completely ridiculous to say Fujitora is stronger than even Kizaru (who is likely the weakest admiral)

Yet it's perfectly fine to say Fujitora is weaker. Why is that?



> c) We never assume characters are as strong as they could possibly be. They work there way up not down.



Who is this we you speak of? 

 I do get what you're saying... kinda. 

So you're saying it's best to assume he is weaker because there is no evidence to suggest he is stronger, right?

If that is what you meant, then I guess what I said in reply to b) is moot 

--------

Too much thinking for my stoned little brain. 

I'll just stick with saying he is equal to Kizaru.


----------



## Kid (Nov 14, 2013)

> Not all admirals have to be at the same level.



They are all '' Admiral Level ''.

But the one is stronger than the other. But the gap is obviously not that big.

Look at Aokiji vs Akainu


----------



## Enel (Nov 14, 2013)

Marco vs an admiral without logia-intangibility? Fujitora won't recover from Marco's attacks like Akainu did.

Marco high-diff.


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 14, 2013)

Fujitora is admiral level thus same level as the Logia Trio. I dont know why this is so hard to accept.


----------



## RF (Nov 14, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Fujitora is admiral level thus same level as the Logia Trio. I dont know why this is so hard to accept.



That's like saying Akainu is on the same level as Prime Garp. (if he became an admiral)


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 14, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> That's like saying Akainu is on the same level as Prime Garp. (if he became an admiral)



If Akainu was strong enough to be an admiral during Roger's time when Garp was at his Prime then yes. Why not ?


----------



## tanman (Nov 14, 2013)

Kid said:


> They are all '' Admiral Level ''.
> 
> But the one is stronger than the other. But the gap is obviously not that big.
> 
> Look at Aokiji vs Akainu





Lionel Messi said:


> Fujitora is admiral level thus same level as the Logia Trio. I dont know why this is so hard to accept.



People are actually willing to say this nonsense?
This is the kind of thing that I imagined hardcore tierists thought but would never say out loud due to fear of their argument's ridiculousness being called out.


----------



## Kid (Nov 14, 2013)

tanman said:


> People are actually willing to say this nonsense?
> This is the kind of thing that I imagined hardcore tierists thought but would never say out loud due to fear of their argument's ridiculousness being called out.



So what you wanna say is that Fujitora isn't admiral level?


----------



## Coruscation (Nov 14, 2013)

No the point is that the idea that Fujitora has to be 99 to Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru's 100 just because they are all Admirals, while Marco supposedly "should" be weaker than anyone who bears the title of Admiral, is baseless. You guys (generalizing now) think this: Marco is weaker than Fujitora because Fujitora is an Admiral so he is as strong as Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru whom Marco is weaker than. Or Fujitora is an Admiral so he is stronger than Marco because Marco has to be weaker than anyone who is an Admiral. It's the second step in that first logic or the very premise of the second which lacks even the brittlest of legs to stand on. Fujitora doesn't need to be any closer to them than Marco is nor has any evidence of him being so emerged in the story yet. Just because Marco had portrayal of inferiority to Akainu, the new leader of the Marines, who proved his superiority over a fellow Admiral, who is one of the main char's 2 great enemies, doesn't mean you can instantly extrapolate that he is inferior to Fujitora.


----------



## Kid (Nov 14, 2013)

first of all I never even said Marco loses to Fujitora _because_ he is an admiral?

I said 


> dat Marco keeps on getting these fights with them Admirals
> 
> He loses



*dat Marco keeps on getting these fights with them Admirals* > Meaning that there are so many threads lately about Marco vs any admiral.

*He loses*> and this is just an opinion of who I think is stronger. Doesn't have anything to do with title. 

Second let's say the '' admiral stage '' is > 94 to 101 < 

Akainu 101
Kizaru&Aokiji 100

So fujitora can be a 94 or 99 or even 100? How would you know that he isn't or is that close compared to them?

I'm think he is around 96/97.

And Marco is for me compared to them around 89-91.


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 14, 2013)

Oda showed us 3 Admirals so far and all 3 of them r assumed to be extremely equal. While Akainu & Aokiji has proved that they r extremely close to each other but Kizaru did not. So, is Kizaru not on the same level with other 2 just because he did not prove that he can win or give extreme diff to Aokiji/Akainu ? No cause being Admiral was enough for him. So, why not for Fuji too ?

If being just an Admiral is not enough then Kizaru will lose but Akainu (Aokiji too as he proved he is almost equal) will win against Marco cause Kizau does not have good showing against Marco ( Kizaru's attack did not work on Marco & Marco kicked him head on. But, Kizaru needed others help to hurt Marco yet still could/did not finish him off) while Akainu does.


----------



## Coruscation (Nov 14, 2013)

^^I said that I was generalizing, not "you" specifically. Those numbers you have there are pulled completely out of nowhere. I'm not saying you're wrong to have that as your personal belief but only that these ideas are baseless.



> No cause being Admiral was enough for him. So, why not for Fuji too ?



It isn't because he's an Admiral. It's because he's Kizaru, 1/3 of the Admiral trio that all have practically the same portrayal and even designs that are meant to emphasize their closeness. Saying that Fujitora is equal to Kiz/Aka/Ao because he's an Admiral is the same as saying that those three are the weakest an Admiral can possibly be. Because we have no basis on which to say that Fujitora is any stronger than the minimum required standard right now. It's not about what he will end up or not end up being but what we can say with the information available to us right now.


----------



## Kid (Nov 14, 2013)

It's a rough guess 

But I do think that marco is not that close to the admirals as some people make it out to be.


----------



## tanman (Nov 14, 2013)

This is so painfully wrong that it hurts my ego to have to actually explain why it's wrong.



Lionel Messi said:


> While Akainu & Aokiji has proved that they r extremely close to each other but Kizaru did not. So, is Kizaru not on the same level with other 2 just because he did not prove that he can win or give extreme diff to Aokiji/Akainu ?



Short answer: Your question is a non-sequitur
. 
Long Answer: What you're talking about is something that didn't happen. Kizaru _didn't_ prove that he could give either admiral extreme difficulty. When nothing happens to a character, we can't make an assumption one way or the other. Nothing happens. So you're logic is incorrect. The second I quoted falls apart at "because." Those two thing have no relationship with each other.

Now, if you do believe that Kizaru is very close to Akainu or Aokiji in strength that _must_ be based on what you've seen out of Kizaru since he hasn't actually fought those characters. It can't be based solely off of an assumption that materialized from no evidence. There is no such thing as a paper thin "admiral level." Saying all admirals are near equal is like saying all pirates are near equal because Jinbe and Ace fought for days.

I didn't quote the rest of your post because it's all based on the assumption that the admirals are near equal. And if that's the assumption that guides your placement of Kizaru, or Fujitora more relevantly, you need to reassess.


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 14, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> *It isn't because he's an Admiral. **It's because he's Kizaru, 1/3 of the Admiral trio that all have practically the same portrayal and even designs that are meant to emphasize their closeness.* Saying that Fujitora is equal to Kiz/Aka/Ao because he's an Admiral is the same as saying that those three are the weakest an Admiral can possibly be. Because we have no basis on which to say that Fujitora is any stronger than the minimum required standard right now. It's not about what he will end up or not end up being but what we can say with the information available to us right now.




It does seem like u r saying Kizaru being an Admiral was not enough but Kizaru being an Admiral with other 2 proven Admiral was enough to assume he is as strong as other 2. Isn't that the same for Fujitora or u did not like his designs thats why we cant assume he is in the same level  ?


----------



## Coruscation (Nov 14, 2013)

It seems like you have issues reading because that's clearly not what I said. I'm not going to repeat myself when the text is right there so you'll have to reinterpret it and this time correctly if this is to continue.


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 14, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> It seems like you have issues reading because that's clearly not what I said. I'm not going to repeat myself when the text is right there so you'll have to reinterpret it and this time correctly if this is to continue.



u said Kizaru was one of the 3 Admiral and all 3 had the same portrayal.Thats what make him Akainu level.

The way i see it, people with _title Admiral_ has the same portrayal. And thats why there is a huge gap between VA and A. Unless someone is an absolute monster he wount never ever get the Admiral rank.
If there was a 4th Admiral (Admiral X) preTS and Oda only  portrayed Aka-Kiji-Kiza the same way and neglected Admiral X then yes i would say not all admiral the same there is difference. But the fact is all the Admiral so far was showed (2 is proven other is assumed) to be equal so why not Fuji ? He even has the same kind of nick name as the previous 3 had.


----------



## Canute87 (Nov 14, 2013)

Akainu, Kizaru, and AoKiji were special even as young marines.

The admiral title does not point to a specific pinnacle of power otherwise with that logic people would actually believe Kizaru to be equal to prime Garp.

The Admiral title has only one condition and that is to be extraordinary. But even among the extraordinary there will still exist gaps in power.  

Because it's a level.


----------



## Freechoice (Nov 14, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> It seems like you have issues reading because that's clearly not what I said. I'm not going to repeat myself when the text is right there so you'll have to reinterpret it and this time correctly if this is to continue.



How's the weather up there on your horse?


----------



## tanman (Nov 14, 2013)

It's absolutely insane that we actually have to sit here and argue that isn't some magic power level that all admirals have to attain (and stay at forever, apparently).


----------



## Coruscation (Nov 14, 2013)

> Kizaru was one of the 3 Admiral and all 3 had the same portrayal.Thats what make him Akainu level.



They have the same portrayal *because they have the same portrayal*. Not because all three of them are Admirals. These things are not the same.



> The way i see it, people with title Admiral has the same portrayal



This makes no sense whatsoever. If this is the case it means that either 1) everyone who holds the title Admiral is automatically equal, or else 2) that Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji are as weak as a person can possibly be and still be allowed to have the position. So which is it? Because one is outright impossible and the other is probably not something you actually think even if you don't realize your reasoning may demand it.

What is your actual reason to think Admiral = powerlevel 100 and only that? Basic common sense tells us that this isn't the case. There is a minimum standard of power required to be allowed to be an Admiral. But what happens if someone becomes stronger than that bare minimum? They're not going to be demoted or promoted. They're still going to be Admirals. Thereby we conclude that different people who hold the title can have different strengths. So like I said above: if you conclude that Fujitora = AAK by the logic that all three are Admirals, you are forced to believe that AAK are the weakest a person can possibly be and still be allowed to hold the title. Which would be pretty dumb.


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Nov 14, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> Umm, what?
> 
> Garp *did* hurt Marco. He put a bruise on Marco's face. That scene was likely meant to demonstrate Garp's superiority over Marco.



How do you know there isn't a bruise on Aokiji's ribcage or Kizaru's arm?


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 14, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> They have the same portrayal *because they have the same portrayal*. Not because all three of them are Admirals. These things are not the same.



Same thing. there was only 3 Admiral on that time and all 3 of them were portrayed the same way (give or take).



> This makes no sense whatsoever. If this is the case it means that either 1) everyone who holds the title Admiral is automatically equal, or else 2) that Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji are as weak as a person can possibly be and still be allowed to have the position. So which is it? Because one is outright impossible and the other is probably not something you actually think even if you don't realize your reasoning may demand it.


 1) everyone who holds the title Admiral is automatically equal _level_ is something not outright impossible specially when thats all that we seen/assumed so far.



> But what happens if someone becomes stronger than that bare minimum? They're not going to be demoted or promoted. They're still going to be Admirals. Thereby we conclude that different people who hold the title can have different strengths.


if thats the case.

how can u be too sure that Akainu & Aokiji did not surpass Kizaru ?Akainu was the only one who has godly feats & portrayed to be the strongest and only Aokiji gave him the extreme diff fight so those 2 can be stronger than Kizaru by a bit of a margin.As for promotion, only Aokiji & Akainu was nominated for FA position not Kizaru. Kizaru was separated from the other 2 more then one time.

*But, i am not asking that question to downplay Kizaru.**i think Kizaru can do the same (assumption)* He is an Admiral and that automatically make him stronger than the likes of Marco and on the same level with Aka-Kiji.He does not have to prove himself at all.But, if u really wanna go into that much deep, separate Kizaru from Aka-Kizi first. and i will gladly give up on my Fuji debate and accept that every Admiral cant be on the same level cause 1 can improve after being an Admiral just like Aka-Kiji did compared to Kizaru (?).


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 15, 2013)

tanman said:


> Now, if you do believe that Kizaru is very close to Akainu or Aokiji in strength *that must be based on what you've seen out of Kizaru *since he hasn't actually fought those characters. It can't be based solely off of an assumption that materialized from no evidence. There is no such thing as a paper thin "admiral level." *Saying all admirals are near equal is like saying all pirates are near equal because Jinbe and Ace fought for days*.


i am not even sure what u r against . Kizaru being close to other 2 or Fuji being close to logia trio ? 

1st part:
not actually its mostly based on him being an Admiral. He did not had much of a good showing against Marco. So, if i go by feats i have to say Marco>=Kizaru but that will sound ridiculous to most people and why u ask ? because he is an Admiral off course and an another Admiral (Akainu) had a much better showing against Marco


2nd part:
i am sorry bro but Ace vs Jinbei example was very wired & had no similarity at all with Aokij vs Akainu except for the Diff part.

ur example would have been perfect if i said all marines r near equal because Akainu and Aokiji fought for days.
Aokiji & Akainu has the same rank which was given to them based on their power while Ace was just a rookie & Jinbei was a warlord. this 2 r nowhere near comparable


----------



## Tiger (Nov 15, 2013)

Not enough to go off yet.

So far I have been impressed with Fujitora's direct actions, the gravity well he opened in the tavern early on, and summoning a meteor - but we haven't actually seen him "fight" yet. Or really...move. We haven't seen if he can take a hit.

We know he must be at a "certain level", but that level can be anything from "stronger than the elite VAs" to "as strong as Akainu".

All we can safely and universally agree upon at the moment should be that he's stronger than any VA barring the retired Garp, but not as strong as Akainu.

For all we know, he's every bit as strong as Kizaru...buuuuut _probably not_.

That said, even if he isn't as strong as Kizaru, that doesn't automatically mean he couldn't defeat Marco. We have to wait and see him in an actual fight first before passing judgment on that. For all we know, he could literally stop Marco from being able to fly with his gravity. I think it's wholly foolish to think we've seen him get serious yet. I'm reminded more of Aokiji half-heartedly attacking the Strawhats before Water 7.

Anyone coming in here like they "know" one way or the other who would win, is just being a dick.


----------



## trance (Nov 15, 2013)

Ryuksgelus said:


> How do you know there isn't a bruise on Aokiji's ribcage or Kizaru's arm?



If Oda wanted to show Marco's kick inflicting some kind of injury to Kuzan or Kizaru, he would've shown it but he didn't and I see no reason to assume that they did get bruises. That's not a strike against Marco but a testament to an Admiral's toughness.


----------



## tanman (Nov 15, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> i am not even sure what u r against . Kizaru being close to other 2 or Fuji being close to logia trio ?



What you don't understand is that I'm not "against" either of those things, necessarily. I'm against the horrifying reasoning that lead you to such an opinion.



Lionel Messi said:


> 1st part:
> not actually its mostly based on him being an Admiral.



Are you reading what I'm writing. You _can't_ base it off that.
Because if you base it off that, you're basing it off a "fact" you pulled directly out of your ass.





Lionel Messi said:


> He did not had much of a good showing against Marco. So, if i go by feats i have to say Marco>=Kizaru but that will sound ridiculous to most people and why u ask ? because he is an Admiral off course and an another Admiral (Akainu) had a much better showing against Marco



Umm...if you think that Marco looked better than Kizaru in their fight, then you should go ahead and put Marco above Kizaru. You do you. I don't believe that. But nobody in their right mind would express disbelief in Marco>Kizaru solely because Kizaru is an admiral. That's absolute nonsense, not "off course." Not "off course" at all.




Lionel Messi said:


> 2nd part:
> i am sorry bro but Ace vs Jinbei example was very wired & had no similarity at all with Aokij vs Akainu except for the Diff part.



You understand how arguments work, right? You make a case, then you provide evidence for that case.



Lionel Messi said:


> ur example would have been perfect if i said all marines r near equal because Akainu and Aokiji fought for days.
> Aokiji & Akainu has the same rank which was given to them based on their power while Ace was just a rookie & Jinbei was a warlord. this 2 r nowhere near comparable



Oh, my bad. In that case, all Shichiukai are equal. All vice admirals are equal. All pirate captains are equal. All dicks are equal. Like what the fuck, man?

I feel like I'm the butt of some elaborate joke as I debate this.

*I really don't understand.*


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 16, 2013)

tanman said:


> What you don't understand is that not "against" either of those things, necessarily. I'm against the horrifying reasoning that lead you to such an opinion.



what reasoning ?




> Are you reading what I'm writing. You _can't_ base it off that.
> Because if you base it off that, you're basing it off a "fact" you pulled directly out of your ass.


i am not stating it as a fact. Nothing in Battledome is fact.
Suppose,we have a Big Mom vs Luffy fight.Here Luffy losing every time is actually not a fact even tho BM has no feats *her being an Yonku is enough for us to say confidently that BM is stronger.* Its an assumption which is extremely extremely likely. Yet not a proven fact.



> Umm...if you think that Marco looked better than Kizaru in their fight, then you should go ahead and put Marco above Kizaru. You do you. I don't believe that. But nobody in their right mind would express disbelief in Marco>Kizaru solely because Kizaru is an admiral. That's absolute nonsense, not "off course." Not "off course" at all


ok. tell me what do u think about the match up below. this should clear things up.

So, why do u think Kizaru > Marco ?
Big Mom vs Marco ? Who will win and why ?



> You understand how arguments work, right? You make a case, then you provide *evidence* for that case.



what evidence ?



> Oh, my bad. In that case, all Shichiukai are equal. All vice admirals are equal. All pirate captains are equal. All dicks are equal. Like what the fuck, man?
> 
> I feel like I'm the butt of some elaborate joke as I debate this.
> 
> *I really don't understand.*



oh god. r u seriously saying this ? 
there is no such thing as  shichibukai/VA/Pirate Captain level. It varies so fucking much & there r lots of them.
But, Admirals & Yonku r totally different case.Yonku (hinted not shown yet) and Admiral has shown that they r close in power. One admiral can never fodderize or mid diff other Admiral same is true for yonku.

both Buggy & Doflamingo r shichibukai . Huge difference in power. DD will fodderizw him so hard that it wount be even funny .
both Vergo & the guy got fodderize by Bert r VA . Huge difference in power. Vego will one shoot the guy most probably.
Both Buggy & Trafalgar Law is a pirate captain. Huge difference in power.  Law can casually fodderize this guy.

get it ?

ur comparing ability is very very poor. So, dont do that. Ur reasoning is not bad but ur example is truly truly horrible.


----------



## Freechoice (Nov 16, 2013)

Lionel going hard


----------



## Harard (Nov 16, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> what reasoning ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nah, there are facts and there are opinions. Saying current Luffy would always lose to a Yonkou is a fact, not an opinion. 

It's just as bad as saying Whitebeard always defeating Rayleigh in a fair one on one fight is an opinion.


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 16, 2013)

Harard said:


> Nah, there are facts and there are opinions. Saying current Luffy would always lose to a Yonkou is a fact, not an opinion.
> 
> It's just as bad as saying Whitebeard always defeating Rayleigh in a fair one on one fight is an opinion.



Well it never happened but its almost 100% accurate cause any Yonku will always win against Luffy. Because , he is an YONKU. and thats the point of my whole example. The rank/title Yonku was enough, no feat was needed.


----------



## Coruscation (Nov 16, 2013)

> nobody in their right mind would express disbelief in Marco>Kizaru solely because Kizaru is an admiral



Regrettably, it's  exactly that "reasoning" that has infected this section like a plague and won't loosen its grip even in the slightest.


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Nov 16, 2013)

I love all the Admirals but I believe they are very wanked throughout the internet. Why do I say this? The arguments used are usually biased (more so than other characters) and terrible reasoning. The Admiral title gets thrown around like it's the finisher to all arguments. People also fail to realize that the war feats can't be taken at face value. Hence the terrible reasoning. 

Anyways, for some reason I believe Marco is a bad match up for Fujitora. Not sure how things would play out though.


----------



## Lmao (Nov 16, 2013)

The Admiral title gets thrown around often because it holds great significance, it's the reason the WG went through a world draft in search of people worthy of such title despite having plenty veteran VAs at their disposal. 

So far only absolute monsters have been promoted to such rank and even the newly introduced Admirals were hyped by Doflamingo calling them "Beasts".


----------



## Harard (Nov 16, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Well it never happened but its almost 100% accurate cause any Yonku will always win against Luffy. Because , he is an YONKU. and thats the point of my whole example. The rank/title Yonku was enough, no feat was needed.



My point is it's not just almost 100% accurate, it is for a fact 100% accurate based on the hype the Yonkou received alone. The Gorosei hyped them even more by saying the Yonkou were the only ones capable of stopping Blackbeard now.

This is almost as bad as saying Lionel Messi beating a 2 year who can barely walk in a one on one football game is an opinion. See how silly that sounds? lol


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 16, 2013)

Harard said:


> This is almost as bad as saying Lionel Messi beating a 2 year who can barely walk in a one on one football game is an opinion. See how silly that sounds? lol



What if Messi is out of form and that kid use puppy face puppy face no mi on him 

*Spoiler*: __ 



 i got ur point in the first post. I was just saying that to tanman for arguments sake


----------



## trance (Nov 16, 2013)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> I love all the Admirals but I believe they are very wanked throughout the internet. Why do I say this? The arguments used are usually biased (more so than other characters) and terrible reasoning. The Admiral title gets thrown around like it's the finisher to all arguments. *People also fail to realize that the war feats can't be taken at face value. *Hence the terrible reasoning.
> 
> Anyways, for some reason I believe Marco is a bad match up for Fujitora. Not sure how things would play out though.



It's not the "feats" from the War we should really look at but the "portrayals". Akainu was portrayed as superior to Marco and Vista. Garp was portrayed as Marco's superior as well. Kuzan was portrayed as Jozu's superior. WB was portrayed as superior to everyone there.


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Nov 16, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> It's not the "feats" from the War we should really look at but the "portrayals". Akainu was portrayed as superior to Marco and Vista. Garp was portrayed as Marco's superior as well. Kuzan was portrayed as Jozu's superior. WB was portrayed as superior to everyone there.



I agree. We should look at portrayal and I believe Marco was portrayed to be around Admiral level. Has a lot of hype behind him. And logical reasoning based on his standing in the crew he should be around that level. BUT none of these things are concrete. Things could go either way.


----------



## tanman (Nov 16, 2013)

Here I go again. 



Lionel Messi said:


> what reasoning ?



The reasoning that admirals are equal because they are admirals. 
Please read the above sentence again and tell me that isn't false logic. Can you really convince yourself of that? You've made it very clear that that's what you believe




Lionel Messi said:


> i am not stating it as a fact. Nothing in Battledome is fact.
> Suppose,we have a Big Mom vs Luffy fight.Here Luffy losing every time is actually not a fact even tho BM has no feats *her being an Yonku is enough for us to say confidently that BM is stronger.* Its an assumption which is extremely extremely likely. Yet not a proven fact.



No. There are things in the battledome that are fact. Akainu punched a hole in Ace. Fact. Aokiji defeated Luffy. Fact. Whitebeard created island sized tsunamis. Fact. Let's be on the same page. Arguments should be based off interpretations. But those interpretations *must* be based off fact. Otherwise, you aren't arguing. You're bullshitting.

As far as Big Mom goes, you're example is silly and false:
Logical argument for Big Mom being stronger than Luffy -
Fact - 
Interpretation - Big Mom could have defeated Blackbeard.
Argument - Luffy cannot defeat Blackbeard, and Big Mom can. Therefore, Big Mom is very likely stronger.

I don't assume this solely based off of her title. I obtain evidence. Even if I did base it just off her title, it would still be incomparable to saying that all admirals are equal. That's because saying that a title makes it very likely that a character is stronger than some non-title bearing character is *very* different from saying that all such title-bearing characters are equal.




Lionel Messi said:


> ok. tell me what do u think about the match up below. this should clear things up.
> 
> So, why do u think Kizaru > Marco ?
> Big Mom vs Marco ? Who will win and why ?



By feats alone, it could certainly be said that Kizaru is roughly equal to Marco. However, portrayal favors Kizaru (unfortunately this is tainted by Marco being on the loosing side of the war). Kizaru showed little seriousness in dueling the likes of Whitebeard, Rayleigh, and Marco. Whereas Marco was only put on the defense by Kizaru, Akainu, and Garp.


I can't make accurate judgements on Big Mom v. Marco because I haven't seen feats from Big Mom yet. They have had similar hype (refer back to them both being one of the few people capable of stopping Blackbeard). They are quite possibly on the same level.



Lionel Messi said:


> what evidence ?







Lionel Messi said:


> oh god. r u seriously saying this ?
> there is no such thing as  shichibukai/VA/Pirate Captain level. It varies so fucking much & there r lots of them.



You understand that you're dissecting your own argument. 
You're right. It does vary "so fucking much." That's the point.



Lionel Messi said:


> But, Admirals & Yonku r totally different case.



_Totally._




Lionel Messi said:


> Yonku (hinted not shown yet)



Hinted where. It's that evidence problem that keeps coming up over and over again.




Lionel Messi said:


> and Admiral has shown that they r close in power.



Two admirals have. Out of the seven who have canonically held the position.



Lionel Messi said:


> One admiral can never fodderize or mid diff other Admiral same is true for yonku.



Nope. Not true. Fujitora could die tomorrow and be replaced by Maynard. Or Maynard could have been the strongest, most experienced person that the WG could find in the draft and been made an admiral. It's a title, not a power level. A fodder with an army in the trillions can take over a Yonkou's territory. It's a title, not a power level. There is no such rule that has ever existed that one admiral or one Yonkou or one hamburglar can't defeat another with medium difficulty. Oda has never said nor even implied such a thing.





Lionel Messi said:


> both Buggy & Doflamingo r shichibukai . Huge difference in power. DD will fodderizw him so hard that it wount be even funny .
> both Vergo & the guy got fodderize by Bert r VA . Huge difference in power. Vego will one shoot the guy most probably.
> Both Buggy & Trafalgar Law is a pirate captain. Huge difference in power.  Law can casually fodderize this guy.



Both Akainu and Maynard could become admirals. Huge difference in power. Akainu would fodderize him so hard that it wouldn't even be funny.



Lionel Messi said:


> get it ?



Nope.



Lionel Messi said:


> ur comparing ability is very very poor. So, dont do that. Ur reasoning is not bad but ur example is truly truly horrible.



I couldn't help but smile at this.
Thanks for giving me a good laugh. It's been a long day. I needed the irony.


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 17, 2013)

tanman said:


> The reasoning that admirals are equal because they are admirals.
> Please read the above sentence again and tell me that isn't false logic. Can you really convince yourself of that? You've made it very clear that that's what you believe


I said all Admirals r in same level not equal. As he is an Admiral that makes him in equal level as Aka-Kiji-Kiza by default until proven otherwise.



> No. There are things in the battledome that are fact. Akainu punched a hole in Ace. Fact. Aokiji defeated Luffy. Fact. Whitebeard created island sized tsunamis. Fact. Let's be on the same page. Arguments should be based off interpretations. *But those interpretations must be based off fact. Otherwise, you aren't arguing. You're bullshitting.*


actually no. Common sense plays a huge huge part here as well. Most of the character in OP lacks feats and u have to go by hype or title or rank. But, its ok if u dont have that.



> As far as Big Mom goes, you're example is silly and false:
> Logical argument for Big Mom being stronger than Luffy -
> Fact -
> Interpretation - Big Mom could have defeated Blackbeard.
> Argument - Luffy cannot defeat Blackbeard, and Big Mom can. Therefore, Big Mom is very likely stronger.



Did BM stop BB ? No. Did Marco stopped BB ? No. Did WG expected Luffy will beat Crocodile or Lucci ? No.there words mean shit and they r almost always wrong.




> I don't assume this solely based off of her title. I obtain evidence. Even if I did base it just off her title, it would still be incomparable to saying that all admirals are equal. That's because saying that a title makes it very likely that a character is stronger than some non-title bearing character is *very* different from saying that all such title-bearing characters are equal.



Again not equal but equal level. BM , Kaido ,Shanks and now BB r equal level cause they r Yonku. And it will remain the same way until proven otherwise. and anyone assuming one is not on same level as others is baseless.




> *By feats alone, it could certainly be said that Kizaru is roughly equal to Marco*. However, portrayal favors Kizaru (unfortunately this is tainted by Marco being on the loosing side of the war). Kizaru showed little seriousness in dueling the likes of Whitebeard, Rayleigh, and Marco. Whereas Marco was only put on the defense by Kizaru, Akainu, and Garp.



By feats ? No. Marco had the upper hand against Kizaru. By feats that VA who hancuffed Marco, has to be stronger than both Marco & Kizaru.




> I can't make accurate judgements on Big Mom v. Marco because I haven't seen feats from Big Mom yet. They have had similar hype (refer back to them both being one of the few people capable of stopping Blackbeard). They are quite possibly on the same level.



well fuck.I am sorry u almighty feat king that i ever took u seriously.



still waiting for ur 




> You understand that you're dissecting your own argument.
> You're right. It does vary "so fucking much." That's the point.





> _Totally._



u agree that Admiral/Yonku r different case. So, u did get my point that ur example was terrible. Good for u.




> Hinted where. It's that evidence problem that keeps coming up over and over again.


i will quote u after 10 years when i have some feat on all of them. ok ?




> Two admirals have. Out of the seven who have canonically held the position.


7 ?
Do u think film Z is a cannon ?



> Nope. Not true. Fujitora could die tomorrow and be replaced by Maynard. Or Maynard could have been the strongest, most experienced person that the WG could find in the draft and been made an admiral. It's a title, not a power level. A fodder with an army in the trillions can take over a Yonkou's territory. It's a title, not a power level. There is no such rule that has ever existed that one admiral or one Yonkou or one hamburglar can't defeat another with medium difficulty. Oda has never said nor even implied such a thing.



There is no such rule that has ever existed that one admiral or one Yonkou can't defeat another with 0 difficulty either   

ok i am done with u, u clearly have a mind of a 1 year old child.
But, i will take that quote as my sig just because wanna see that when i am sad and i am sure it will make me laugh.





> Both Akainu and *Maynard could become admirals*. Huge difference in power. Akainu would fodderize him so hard that it wouldn't even be funny.



Epic fail. Maynard is not an Admiral . 
plz stop ur comparing ability is hurting my eyes 



> Nope.



why am i not surprised ? 


> I couldn't help but smile at this.
> Thanks for giving me a good laugh. It's been a long day. I needed the irony.



ur smart-ass word is not enough to cover up ur fail examples.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 17, 2013)

Yeah, I don't have any Essays to read this semester. Keep up the debate guys lol


----------



## tanman (Nov 17, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> I said all Admirals r in same level not equal. As he is an Admiral that makes him in equal level as Aka-Kiji-Kiza by default until proven otherwise.



How to Powerlevels for Dummies:

OK, so you've decided to arbitrarily come up with a power level. Great!
Does this arbitrary power level have an upper bound?
Does this arbitrary power level have a lower bound?
If you answered no to both of those questions: congratulations! You've described every character in the series with your arbitrary power level.
What must one do to get on to the arbitrary power level?
If you're answer to the last wasn't: get strong enough (if it was: become an admiral). Congratulations: You don't understand how a *power level* works in the first place. Go back to step one.




Lionel Messi said:


> actually no. Common sense plays a huge huge part here as well. Most of the character in OP lacks feats and u have to go by hype or title or rank. But, its ok if u dont have that.



Statements of hype _are_ fact (in that they were said, not in that they have to be completely true).




Lionel Messi said:


> Did BM stop BB ? No. Did Marco stopped BB ? No. Did WG expected Luffy will beat Crocodile or Lucci ? No.there words mean shit and they r almost always wrong.



So now you _don't_ accept hype as evidence. You're really confusing me.






Lionel Messi said:


> Again not equal but equal level. BM , Kaido ,Shanks and now BB r equal level cause they r Yonku. And it will remain the same way until proven otherwise. and anyone assuming one is not on same level as others is baseless.



No one has to prove that they aren't on the same level.
Someone has to prove they are. (which of course you can't do)


It's called burden of proof.






Lionel Messi said:


> By feats ? No. Marco had the upper hand against Kizaru. By feats that VA who hancuffed Marco, has to be stronger than both Marco & Kizaru.



Marco and Kizaru fought completely evenly. I don't know what you're talking about. Marco had a moment of advantage, but so did Kizaru.

But I totally agree handcuffs are stronger than Marco and Kizaru. 






Lionel Messi said:


> well fuck.I am sorry u almighty feat king that i ever took u seriously.



Do you read what you quote or do you just use a random letter generator to respond? Serious question.






Lionel Messi said:


> still waiting for ur



Please trace the quotes back to what this comment was actually about. Because clearly you've lost sight of that. Unless, you want me to provide evidence for your claims.





Lionel Messi said:


> u agree that Admiral/Yonku r different case. So, u did get my point that ur example was terrible. Good for u.



Sarcasm is never lost on you.



Lionel Messi said:


> i will quote u after 10 years when i have some feat on all of them. ok ?



Until then, please refrain from speculating in the battledome about what you think has been "hinted." Oh, and if you know me in ten years.... O_O






Lionel Messi said:


> 7 ?
> Do u think film Z is a cannon ?



6. Miscount.





Lionel Messi said:


> There is no such rule that has ever existed that one admiral or one Yonkou can't defeat another with 0 difficulty either



That's correct.



Lionel Messi said:


> ok i am done with u, u clearly have a mind of a 1 year old child.
> But, i will take that quote as my sig just because wanna see that when i am sad and i am sure it will make me laugh.



You sure got me!





Lionel Messi said:


> Epic fail. Maynard is not an Admiral .



Excellent observation. 




Lionel Messi said:


> plz stop ur comparing ability is hurting my eyes



Damn! You got me again!





Lionel Messi said:


> why am i not surprised ?
> 
> 
> ur smart-ass word is not enough to cover up ur fail examples.



Totally, bro. Words are lame. Whoo kneeds dem? Nerdz daz who!


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 17, 2013)

tanman said:


> How to Powerlevels for Dummies:
> 
> OK, so you've decided to arbitrarily come up with a power level. Great!
> Does this arbitrary power level have an upper bound?
> ...



the difference between upper bound and lower bound among people who share the title Admiral is very small. almost negligible (as far as we saw)




> Statements of hype _are_ fact (in that they were said, not in that they have to be completely true).
> So now you _don't_ accept hype as evidence. You're really confusing me.



there is hype and there is false-hype.

also, the person who is stating is also important. If Trafalgar Law says the Prime WB > Roger and Bugggy says Prime WB = Roger u will have to believe Buggy cause he was close to them and knows what they r capable of unlike Law.





> No one has to prove that they aren't on the same level.
> Someone has to prove they are. (which of course you can't do)
> It's called burden of proof.



Which all the people who is callled admiral did (Fujitora an totally new guy) by being strong enough to achieve Admiral rank. People like Monomga could not achieve it in 20+ years yet some new guy got it. Because he has proven to the WG that he is much stronger and has what it takes to be called Admiral ,marines strongest shoulder.

The burden of proof is all on u.





> Marco and Kizaru fought completely evenly. I don't know what you're talking about. Marco had a moment of advantage, but so did Kizaru.



Kizaru's attack did not do shit to Marco and Marco hit Kizaru head on. Thats Marco getting the upper hand not Kizaru.



> But I totally agree handcuffs are stronger than Marco and Kizaru.


well u go by feat only, so that must be what u think. I was just showing the dead end of the way u r walking.




> Do you read what you quote or do you just use a random letter generator to respond? Serious question.



In other words u dont understand the words which shows u ur fail part. Good.






> Please trace the quotes back to what this comment was actually about. Because clearly you've lost sight of that. Unless, you want me to provide evidence for your claims.




error . . . .no evidence to prove ur clam is found




> Sarcasm is never lost on you.



stop mind reading.




> Until then, please refrain from speculating in the battledome about what you think has been "hinted." Oh, and if you know me in ten years.... O_O



U should abandon OL and never come back. Cause in 10 years there would be nothing to argue about.






> 6. Miscount.




ok.



> That's correct.



So there is 50-50 chance that Shanks can stomp BM ? 

For the love of god plz dont say yes. PLz



> You sure got me!
> Excellent observation.
> Damn! You got me again!



glad to see u have the guts to admit things.





> Totally, bro. Words are lame. Whoo kneeds dem? Nerdz daz who!


Sarcasm is never lost on you


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 17, 2013)

tanman said:


> How to Powerlevels for Dummies:
> 
> OK, so you've decided to arbitrarily come up with a power level. Great!
> Does this arbitrary power level have an upper bound?
> ...




Tannman soloing the thread whilst he is tanning himself


----------



## Freechoice (Nov 17, 2013)

Mirage said:


> Tannman soloing the thread whilst he is tanning himself


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 17, 2013)

Fujitora is Akainu level because he is a Admiral just like Big Mom is Akainu level because she is a Yonkou.

Marco loses.


----------



## RF (Nov 17, 2013)

I hope you're just being sarcastic.


----------



## Enel (Nov 17, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Fujitora is Akainu level because he is a Admiral just like Big Mom is Akainu level because she is a Yonkou.
> 
> Marco loses.


So you say Shanks is Akainu level because he is a Yonkou. So Fujitora is as strong as Shanks


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 17, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> I hope you're just being sarcastic.



Nope 100 percent serious.

Rank of Admiral is enough hype for me to believe Fujitora can beat Marco same goes for the title of Yonkou.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 17, 2013)

Enel said:


> So you say Shanks is Akainu level because he is a Yonkou. So Fujitora is as strong as Shanks



Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are all on the same level.

They are not all equal. So no Fujitora is not as strong as shanks which I can only assume you mean 100 percent equal to him.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Nov 17, 2013)

Sanji isnt on the same level as Zoro and Luffy


----------



## RF (Nov 17, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Nope 100 percent serious.
> 
> Rank of Admiral is enough hype for me to believe Fujitora can beat Marco same goes for the title of Yonkou.



 You said Fujitora is_ Akainu_ level because he's an admiral. That's so baseless it hurts.

Besides, Marco is admiral level too.


----------



## Enel (Nov 17, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are all on the same level.


In what point of the story were they on the same level?



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> They are not all equal. So no Fujitora is not as strong as shanks which I can only assume you mean 100 percent equal to him.


But Shanks is a Yonko so isn't he Akainu level?


----------



## Vengeance (Nov 17, 2013)

Enel said:


> In what point of the story were they on the same level?



There is a reason why they are called monster trio, they are all still in the same playfield.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 17, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> You said Fujitora is_ Akainu_ level because he's an admiral. That's so baseless it hurts.
> 
> Besides, Marco is admiral level too.



No more baseless then Big mom being Akainu level.

I said Akainu level for a reason. Marco is not giving Akainu a near extreme diffculty fight now Fujitora or big mom that's a different story.


----------



## Harard (Nov 17, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Fujitora is Akainu level because he is a Admiral just like Big Mom is Akainu level because she is a Yonkou.
> 
> Marco loses.



Is Akainu Whitebeard level because he was an admiral?


----------



## Shinthia (Nov 17, 2013)

Harard said:


> Is Akainu Whitebeard level because he was an admiral?



WB is an exception because he was not just an Yonku , he was the WSM too.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 17, 2013)

Harard said:


> Is Akainu Whitebeard level because he was an admiral?



Whitebeard was on a level of his own ever since Roger died.

So no.

But I Guess that depends on how strong you view old whitebeard and Akainu as well as what you consider on the same level. If you view on the same level as being able to give whitebeard a high diffculty fight then yea Akainu would fit the bill. At least old whitebeard.


----------



## RF (Nov 17, 2013)

> Marco is not giving Akainu a near extreme diffculty fight aka Marco is not Akainu level.



Neither is Fujitora.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 17, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Neither is Fujitora.



Your opnion not mine.


----------



## RF (Nov 17, 2013)

You've said the same thing in several past threads as far as I remember.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 17, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> You've said the same thing in several past threads as far as I remember.



Said what exactly?

And did I say it to you?


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 17, 2013)

Marco loses here . Mid to High Difficulty via feats and Low End Mid Difficulty via Powerscaling .


----------



## Bansai (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm convinced Marco can win this thanks to his regeneration ability.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 17, 2013)

Lionel and Tanman going all out.  Where's sparkling water? It's about that time of the month where a goon owns him in a debate


----------



## tanman (Nov 27, 2013)

For the record, I stopped replying because my brain was atrophying from explaining this over and over again. You beating me in a debate is like a panda bear beating Peewee Herman in basketball: I'm nothing special but the competition is laughable. 

If you really think having the last word is the same thing as victory, then I certainly overestimated you. I should have continued to ignore this nonsense since I knew I already won (you already started relying on ad hominem, circular logic, and a seemingly prophetic understanding of the OP universe). However, I just couldn't take you saying that you'd won sitting down. It's a weakness. I admit.



Lionel Messi said:


> the difference between upper bound and lower bound among people who share the title Admiral is very small. almost negligible (as far as we saw)



Prove it.
By the way, a sample of three is not conclusive proof.



Lionel Messi said:


> there is hype and there is false-hype.
> 
> also, the person who is stating is also important. If Trafalgar Law says the Prime WB > Roger and Bugggy says Prime WB = Roger u will have to believe Buggy cause he was close to them and knows what they r capable of unlike Law.



Or hype that you doesn't conform to what you believe is false hype, right?



Lionel Messi said:


> Which all the people who is callled admiral did (Fujitora an totally new guy) by being strong enough to achieve Admiral rank. People like Monomga could not achieve it in 20+ years yet some new guy got it. Because he has proven to the WG that he is much stronger and has what it takes to be called Admiral ,marines strongest shoulder.



This paragraph is composed of only baseless assumptions. I've already proven why this logic is fallacious. I need not repeat myself. This is why sometimes the inferior (and more persistent) debater should sometimes be left to have the last word.







Lionel Messi said:


> The burden of proof is all on u.



Try googling burden of proof. You might learn something.
Try "circular logic" while you're at it.





Lionel Messi said:


> Kizaru's attack did not do shit to Marco and Marco hit Kizaru head on. Thats Marco getting the upper hand not Kizaru.



Marco's attacks didn't do shit to Kizaru. Two way street. And a momentary upper hand is a few miles away from a decisive victory.



Lionel Messi said:


> well u go by feat only, so that must be what u think. I was just showing the dead end of the way u r walking.



You literally quoted me using hype in this same post. Do you have the memory of a goldfish?

That's not what I _must_ think. It's a flaw in what _you_ think happened. You're logic is the one that has a dead again. Again, you're acting as if everyone secretly believes everything you believe about the events of the manga. 

*Not once in this argument have you managed to "show" anything. You've just been yanking back the discussion by ignoring the main points that you know you can't combat since they are based on such fundamental reasoning.*






Lionel Messi said:


> In other words u dont understand the words which shows u ur fail part. Good.



With I was that clever.




Lionel Messi said:


> error . . . .no evidence to prove ur clam is found



Mmmkay? So you're just jerking me around, right?






Lionel Messi said:


> U should abandon OL and never come back. Cause in 10 years there would be nothing to argue about.



Ah. We've finally resorted to prophet logic. That's when I know the argument is won.




Lionel Messi said:


> So there is 50-50 chance that Shanks can stomp BM ?
> 
> For the love of god plz dont say yes. PLz



Huge leap from "a chance" to 50%. 50% would imply that there is a higher chance of Shanks beating Big Mom with zero difficulty than him beating her with low difficulty, medium difficulty, and so on. Assuming no feats and no hype, the chances would be evenly distributed, so in theory there would be a 20% chance of him beating her with no difficulty. Obviously we have some feats and some hype, so we can diminish that chance a good bit.

*However, it's not diminished to 0% along with all other difficulties under extreme just because of their shared title.*



Lionel Messi said:


> glad to see u have the guts to admit things.
> 
> Sarcasm is never lost on you




Yeah, and you're so much better at it too.




In conclusion, (since I'm hoping that's what you require rather than a debate decided by who can talk louder and post last) this is the nonsense that we started with "Fujitora is admiral level thus same level as the Logia Trio. I dont know why this is so hard to accept." You've long since been backed past this goalpost, and this has long since been proven wrong. The implication that Marco, someone who gave Kizaru very high difficulty, is the absolute dirt of the Earth that any admiral by default can beat is so ridiculous it would be laughable were it not depressing.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 28, 2013)

Marco can't get hurt by metoers due to regen. Gravity can't pin law down, so it certainly won't affect Marco. Fuji don't have ramen to recover his stamina. Marco is young and full of life. Marco can fly and redirect and meteor at fuji's way.


Neither Marco nor Fuji have gone all out on pannel, but of what we've seen so far, Marco should win high dif. Maybe add 12 vice admirals to the fight and it might push the difficulties abit higher.


----------



## trance (Nov 28, 2013)

Not a necro but...why revive this thread? 

Anyway, as the OP, I'll guess I'll give my opinion...

It's almost pure speculation about Fujitora's strength in comparison to other top tiers. Yes, he's an Admiral and was hyped by DD but Marco can fight an Admiral and was hyped by the Gorosei. That's pretty comparable IMO. I'll go with my gut feeling and say Fujitora edges out a win.


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 28, 2013)

I don't see Marco coming even close to defeating an Admiral (or a Yonko), I'd say Fujitora would win high diff.


----------

