# What is Kage level to you?



## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

What exactly constitutes a Kage level opponent. Who is the lowest of the low Kage?

I see some people putting Kimimaro and Chiyo as Kage level opponents, but are we being to vague and lenient with the label "Kage level"? Or are they actually Kage level opponents


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

The lowest of the lowest low Kage level ninja is Hidan.


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

Yea I could agree with that. Immortality, good CQC and his haxxed ritual is enough to make him a low kage. But where do we draw the line? Are the Sound 5 a Kage level opponent? Is Kimimaro? Chiyo?


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Sound 5 are collectively a Kage Level Unit.

 Kimimaro alone displayed feats during the War Arc that would place him closer to Kage Level and the Sound 4 alone have a versatile arsenal which each of them individually being Low-Jonin level at the very least, if not, higher.


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## Bonly (Nov 26, 2015)

-What exactly constitutes a Kage level opponent. 

To me I'd say a character who is a decent amount above Elite Jounin characters like Asuma,Kakashi(Immortals arc and below),Kabuto(pre Orochi DNA), ect. while being on the same general level as a Kage based on feats,hype,portrayal,potential, ect.

So I'd say a character around Old Hiruzen's general level would be considered a Kage level ninja.

-Who is the lowest of the low Kage

Prolly Hidan, he had Asuma shitting his pants and was suggested to be above him by quite a bit and all that Jazz


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## Kuya (Nov 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sound 5 are collectively a Kage Level Unit.
> 
> Kimimaro alone displayed feats during the War Arc that would place him closer to Kage Level and the Sound 4 alone have a versatile arsenal which each of them individually being Low-Jonin level at the very least, if not, higher.



No way Jose


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Lowest Kage-level guy I feel is Mifune. Highest is War Arc Obito.


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

@Vice highest before all the god tier peeps right?


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Yeah, he's a high-tier Kage right before you get to the god-level guys.


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

Yea I can agree with that. Him or Nagato. I just want to see how people feel because I feel like sometimes we are starting to dilute the term "Kage level" It seems that more people are getting put into this ranking


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 26, 2015)

The lowest kage level shinobi (from my perspective) has to be Beginning of Part 2 Kazekage Gaara (who lacked versatility) or Sasori. Neither Hidan nor Chiyo are kage-level by any stretch whatsoever, perhaps Chiyo in her prime could have been a candidate for low-kage class but not in her old age. Also, Konan isn't kage-level either, at best she's a mid jounin level, more like a specialist (e.g. Aoba).

*The Definition of a Kage:*
Kage level for me is comprised of a good balance of well talented, experienced, powerful and intellectual individuals. Those are of course broad strokes that could encompass literally anyone but from where I stand those categories should be the first filter that should be applied in searching for suitable candidate for being kage-level.

The poorest choice for kage has to be Gaara who was basically forced into it because there was no one else who could do it effectively in the sand. He definitely did not have the intellect or experience to establish a strong foothold in the beginning of part 2. He did however have an abundant amount power and decent intellect, which I believe earned him the spot. However, despite his shortcomings he grew into the role towards end of the series when he was able to do what he did while not having the same power. 

Most of the mid-tier Akatsuki members (Kisame, Kakuzu, Deidara) were strong enough to pose a considerable threat to any of the kages (individually) so by virtue of their strength, unique skill-sets and overall ninjutsu prowess they have always been solid kage-level shinobi in my book. 

Sasori, however, I believe fluctuates far too much based on his opponents, as long as he draws puppeteers and close quarters/taijutsu-based opponents he'll always be in the lead. It's for that very reason he beats Tsunade but when matched against kage-level shinobi that use ninjutsu, specifically mid to long-range fighters (e.g. Mei, Oonoki, Kakuzu, Kisame, Jiraiya and etc.) he's actually at quite the disadvantage. That's why he's my pick for the lowest kage-level shinobi because he can in fact beat a kage, however it's really contingent upon luck of the draw. 

However, despite being kage-level shinobi, that doesn't mean they are suitable replacements for kages though. The list of suitable kage candidates consists of Pain/Nagato, Itachi, Kisame, Shikaku, Danzo, Yamato, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Sakura, Kitsuchi, Ao to name a few.


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## Ersa (Nov 26, 2015)

Anyone strong enough to be a Kage is Kage-level, minimum is probably like Hiruzen or Healthy Kimimaro. The term itself could range from them to someone like Hashirama. A tiering system works better in terms of grading them.

Like Tsunade and Edo Itachi could both be dubbed "Kage level" except the latter one-shots her like fodder.


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## Amol (Nov 26, 2015)

Neither Hidan nor Chiyo are on Kage level.
I put someone at Kage level if that someone has atleast 50/50% chance a against any known Kage.
And lolKimimaro.


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

Ok so for example. Everyone besides Zetsu, Konan and Hidan (debateable) are not kage. All the others are? I mean do you consider their leadership and talent to lead a village? Or is it just sheer power? For example, Deidara is Kage level because he can compete with them, but could you ever see him protecting a village?


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 26, 2015)

I think the distinction needs to be made in the OP, if you are just looking for kage-level challengers, then the manga is full of them but if you want suitable replacement candidates then it's far and few in between in that respect.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

If we're talking sheer power, Deidara is a low-kage, Konan and Hidan are high jonins and I don't know what to do with Zetsu.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 26, 2015)

^ I don't think anyone knows what to do with Zetsu, he's really not a front-line fighter and he can be captured or sealed into submission, so he can be beaten rather easily. I just don't know where to put him on the scale.


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## Bonly (Nov 26, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Ok so for example. Everyone besides Zetsu, Konan and Hidan (debateable) are not kage. All the others are? I mean do you consider their leadership and talent to lead a village? Or is it just sheer power? For example, Deidara is Kage level because he can compete with them, but could you ever see him protecting a village?



Besides those three being Kage level, whether Deidara can protect a village depends on the situation. For example put the shown Kage in Tsunade's situation against Deva using CST. Chances are a majority of them don't have what it takes to protect a village worth of people. But again it depends on the type of situation


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

It's a tricky question. At first I just meant a Kage-level opponent. Obviously we can name many. Jiraiya was a Kage level opponent who I could also see leading the village. Sasori on the other hand is a Kage level opponent but I am not sure if he could lead Suna. I honestly don't see how any puppet user could be a Kage honestly. It has too many limitations, but i guess if there is one he would be the one.

Pein would've been a great Kage for Ame athough I don't believe they have a Kage


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Which Kage does the Sound Five beat?


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

That's the ultimate question. I am not sure they actually can. I think Sound 5 can. Sound 4 can't on equal ground.

Sound 5 can most likely beat Chiyo, Hidan, Darui. People around that level mostly due to versatility and Kimimaro himself.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Which kage do those characters beat?


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## Ersa (Nov 26, 2015)

Healthy Kimimaro beats Old Hiruzen and Rasa.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Rasa buries Kimimaro. Hiruzen might have a ninjutsu that works, but if not, then Kimimaro catches the death seal and dies too...


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## Ersa (Nov 26, 2015)

Actually I take back Rasa. 

Still, by that logic most people on Hiruzen's tier can't beat him. Forcing a draw with Hiruzen implies you're equal at worst. And he also beats Rusty Tsunade to be honest, considering how badly she was struggling against Kabuto.

Honestly you can spin it two ways, he's either at the bare minimum of Kage level since he'd stomp Elite Jounin like Kabuto or the very top of Jounin level.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Which Kage does the Sound Five beat?



 Hidan, Chiyo, Darui, Kinkaku, Ginkaku, Mifune, Rusty Hanzo, Base Gai, CS2 Jugo, and Rasa (potentially) etc ...

 Shall I continue?


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

I think one should be capable of beating a kage in order to be considered kage level. I'm not sure that I'd even favor Kimimaro over some of the jōnin.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hidan, Chiyo, Darui, Kinkaku, Ginkaku, Mifune, Rusty Hanzo, Base Gai, CS2 Jugo, and Rasa (potentially) etc ...
> 
> Shall I continue?



The only actual kage on that list is Rasa, who buries the entire group with one tsunami. The Gold & Silver Brothers absolutely MURDER with v2, and Hanzō gasses the place and everything dies.

Rest of those guys aren't kage level.


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## Amol (Nov 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hidan, Chiyo, Darui, Kinkaku, Ginkaku, Mifune, Rusty Hanzo, Base Gai, CS2 Jugo, and Rasa (potentially) etc ...
> Shall I continue?


Strange besides Rasa none of them are at Kage level.
Rasa buries Sound 5 .
Few from list also kills sound 5.


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## Ersa (Nov 26, 2015)

He can beat Hiruzen and Rusty Tsunade. The former needs the Death Seal to tie and the latter is not only slower but even with her huge taijutsu advantage over Kabuto struggled to tag him consistently.

Meh, he could be "top Jounin" as well, I don't think the distinction matters much.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The only actual kage on that list is Rasa, who buries the entire group with one tsunami. The Gold & Silver Brothers absolutely MURDER with v2, and Hanzō gasses the place and everything dies.
> 
> Rest of those guys aren't kage level.



 I forgot about V2 honestly.

 Make that Base Kinkaku and Base Ginkaku.


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## Amol (Nov 26, 2015)

Hiruzen absolutely murderstomps Sound 5. 
He stalemated their Boss, Orochimaru.
From basic portrayal it doesn't make any sense for him to lose against underlings.
Enma is capable of breaking every single bone of Kimimaro.
Feats speaks for themselves.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Amol said:


> Hiruzen absolutely murderstomps Sound 5.
> He stalemated their Boss, Orochimaru.
> From basic portrayal it doesn't make any sense for him to lose against underlings.
> Enma is capable of breaking every single bone of Kimimaro.
> Feats speaks for themselves.



 I never mentioned Hiruzen.


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## Amol (Nov 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I never mentioned Hiruzen.


I know .
I was replying to other guy.
Edit : Why everyone has 'sad' in their name again?


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Ersad said:


> He can beat Hiruzen and Rusty Tsunade. The former needs the Death Seal to tie and the latter is not only slower but even with her huge taijutsu advantage over Kabuto struggled to tag him consistently.



Um, Hiruzen likely doesn't _need_ the death seal. He could probably just knock Kimimaro over with the staff and cut him in half with Raiton or something. That is _way_ more likely than him losing to Kimimaro when he fought Orochimaru with Edo Tensei. 

Tsunade likely wins thanks to her longevity. Hemophobic Tsunade isn't kage level. Rusty Tsunade with Katsuyu & Creation Rebirth is way more than enough for Kimimaro. Also, since I see that you're targeting Part I handicapped kage, does he beat no kage from Part II?

Darui can probably one-shot Kimimaro with Black Panther too.


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## charles101 (Nov 26, 2015)

Well... Rusty Tsunade hadn't been Kage yet.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 26, 2015)

We look at the weakest kage in the manga by feats, and if we think the shinobi could compete with them, they are kage level. 



> Neither Hidan nor Chiyo are on Kage level.
> I put someone at Kage level if that someone has atleast 50/50% chance a against any known Kage.
> And lolKimimaro.


Hidan & Chiyo would defeat Old Hiruzen.

Chiyo with a high-chunin competed with Mid-kage Sasori, nuff said. 

Hidan is immortal, injury resistant, tireless, relatively skilled in CQC, has a stone busting weapon which is air-guided, and can kill anyone with a simple drop of their blood.

They are stronger than Jounin.


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## Ersa (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Um, Hiruzen likely doesn't _need_ the death seal. He could probably just knock Kimimaro over with the staff and cut him in half with Raiton or something. That is _way_ more likely than him losing to Kimimaro when he fought Orochimaru with Edo Tensei.


Can't Kimimaro just dodge? Someone with 4.5 in speed and a Sharingan-like boost can't dodge an old man with a staff? On the other side, I could see Sawarbi No Mai being a serious problem. Orochimaru was jobbing for a large portion of the fight.



> Tsunade likely wins thanks to her longevity. Hemophobic Tsunade isn't kage level. Rusty Tsunade with Katsuyu & Creation Rebirth is way more than enough for Kimimaro.


It's not IC for her to use the slug in a straight up 1v1. Creation Rebirth might not be that useful when her bodies in a bone forest with a couple of bones through her head.



> Also, since I see that you're targeting Part I handicapped kage, does he beat no kage from Part II?


Part I Kage are weaker, most Part II Kage are middle of the pack. That being said give him favourable conditions against Mei or Gaara and he takes either apart, high difficulty.


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## Yoko (Nov 26, 2015)

Kage-level (to me) is an individual with a vast array of abilities capable of coping with a variety of different scenarios against diverse opponents with physical capabilities good enough to make those abilities matter.  Typically, one dimensional fighters suffer, although there are exceptions to this idea, including characters like Minato and Raikage(s).   They're all one-trick ponies, but their "one trick" is so good that 99.9% of the verse can't really do anything about it.  

I'm seeing a lot of discussion about Kimimaro here, so I'll throw in my two cents; Kimimaro is undoubtedly Kage level to me. 
He has speed in the same ballpark as Part II Kakashi and possesses a CQC style that I'd say only falls below Killer Bee's seven sword dance and drunken Lee. 


He has nigh unbreakable defense, and on the rare occasion that his opponent does manage to break it, he's got pseudo-Byakugo regeneration to fall back on.


Despite being a CQC fighter, he has ranged capabilities such as finger bullets and a terrain changing Bone Forest, giving him attacking versatility.

And all the things I mentioned only get amplified when he activates CS1 and CS2.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Nov 26, 2015)

*Kimimaro should not be considered kage level under any circumstances.
When one reaches kage level it should mean that they have the ability to handle most enemies in base form. Characters such as Itachi, Kisame, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Naruto, Sasuke, and Gai are all able to handle enemies in base form and whip out their moon prism power if necessary. 

Id say the "weakest" of "kage level" opponents is Gaara & Naruto (beginning of shippuden)
I wouldn't consider the two low Akatsuki teams (Deidara & Sasori Hidan & Kakuzu) kage level, each of these members has amazing jutsu and are capable of taking kage level opponents (maybe) but none should be considered kage level. *


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> *Kimimaro should not be considered kage level under any circumstances.
> When one reaches kage level it should mean that they have the ability to handle most enemies in base form. Characters such as Itachi, Kisame, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Naruto, Sasuke, and Gai are all able to handle enemies in base form and whip out their moon prism power if necessary.
> 
> Id say the "weakest" of "kage level" opponents is Gaara & Naruto (beginning of shippuden)
> I wouldn't consider the two low Akatsuki teams (Deidara & Sasori Hidan & Kakuzu) kage level, each of these members has amazing jutsu and are capable of taking kage level opponents (maybe) but none should be considered kage level. *



Hidan gets shit stomped by any kage out there


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## Yoko (Nov 26, 2015)

What enemies can base Guy beat that base Kimimaro cannot?


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Yoko said:


> What enemies can base Guy beat that base Kimimaro cannot?



Base Kimmimaro implies Kimmimaro with no CS boost, he couldn't even keep up with Drunken Lee's movements, who while being more unpredictable, was much slower than Base Gai himself. Gai has much better speed and strength than Kimmimaro (base) plus the fact that lotus can hit harder.

Though saying Base Gai is kage level is just pathetic and makes no sense. He can't compete with likes of Ei, Onoki, Tsunade (With Katsuyu, at least) and whatnot. Kage level isn't exactly base though, because many kages are quite pathetic in base form, it's just that overall being strong as hell, being able to take part in any scenario and situations, and being overall, well, op'ed. Might Gai overall is more or less kage level if we include 7th gate, and pretty much surpasses kage level if we include NIght Gai.

Though Base Gai is pales in comparison to kages, base or no base.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

S-rank, to me, is Kage level. Hidan is S-rank. Hidan is Kage level. Rusty Tsunade _might_ be worst. Anybody that can give either of those two a good fight is Kage level IMO.

Hence why we have Low, Mid, and High Kage level tiers. As far as Kimimaro goes, he's definitely Kage level in my opinion, in both manga hype and from feat and ability analysis. Sick or healthy.

If you objectively compare the p1 feats of Hiruzen & Kimimaro, then Kimimaro's abilities absolutely dwarf Hiruzen. We have a miles-long bone forest _logia_ versus tiny katons and staff cages.

It was also made clear by Kabuto that Kimimaro's presence alone would have made the entire multi-village war go smoothly for Orochimaru. Kimimaro alone would have made the difference.​


Shanal said:


> Base Kimmimaro implies Kimmimaro with no CS boost, he couldn't even keep up with Drunken Lee's movements



Every stupid SOB that says this also ignores the manga saying Drunk Lee knocked base Gai the fuck out. Base Gai being someone with, no shit, _extremely_ Kage level taijutsu skill and stats.

Base Gai being someone that, in terms of pure taijutsu, can and would land hits on any Kage. Kimimaro can endure those hits just as well as Tsunade could, but they'd still take them.​


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## Ersa (Nov 26, 2015)

> Just what's with those drunken frenzies even *Guy can't handle*?! The usually well-spoken Lee charges with the destructive power of an explosion!!



Databook extract.

Drunk Lee > Base Gai.

:ignoramus


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## Deer Lord (Nov 26, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> but are we being to vague and lenient with the label "Kage level"?


YES.
"Kage-Level" has been prostituted around so much that dudes like noob-ass hidan and konan qualify for some people.

I personally put it at anyone stronger than the weakest Kage shown, which is Old-Hiruzen.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Every stupid SOB that says this also ignores the manga saying Drunk Lee knocked base Gai the fuck out. Base Gai being someone with, no shit, Kage level taijutsu skill and stats.



Gai is having a peaceful dinner with his team, he is sitting like next to Lee most likely, Lee is drinking water and Gai has no idea what is going to happen, he is not only off guard but completely doesn't expects any offensive movement from Lee, all of sudden Lee kicks the shit out of Gai and bangs him on head, and he falls down flat faced.

I don't know if I should face palm or laugh if you think that Drunken Lee can actually knock out or even manage to give considerably trouble to a prepared Base Gai in battle 

As for kage level, I don't consider likes of rusty Tsunade kage level, nowhere near, to be honest, unless we want to consider likes of Tenten Mid-Jounin level or something 

Either way, to me, kages are likes of Ei, Tsunade (w/ yin and Katsuyu) Sage Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Onoki, MS Sasuke, Sage Naruto (summons also included), Naruto and Sasuke (Early shippuden, including summonings, again, though they're low-mid kage level, IMO), Mei (Rather low-mid), Gaara, Gated Gai (6th-7th) etc. 

Anyone who is as shit as rusty Tsunade can't be considered Kage level, she has a phobia of blood and can't even summon Katsuyu, what the hell can she even do compared to kages out there?

Might Gai in base isn't kage level, to me at least, since he can't stand up to MS Sasuke, Sage Naruto (w/ summons) Ei, Tsunade (w/ summons and Yin) etc. He's a low-mid Jounin level for me.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Ersad said:


> Databook extract.
> 
> Drunk Lee > Base Gai.
> 
> :ignoramus



People just ignore this, then de-hype Kimimaro. Not even worth debating.

Manga statements, databook entries, and databook stats all align here.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> People just ignore this, then de-hype Kimimaro. Not even worth debating.
> 
> Manga statements, databook entries, and databook stats all align here.



Where in databook is it ever stated that Drunken Lee is > Base Gai? I might have missed something, sorry. 

Can you give me how it is worded ,at least.

Drunken Lee has no databook stats, by the way, and manga statement of Gai being knocked out is already pretty much explained and logically makes perfect sense considering the fact that Gai was beyond off guard and sitting directly next to the person he trusts the most probably.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 26, 2015)

Viz translation has nothing about Drunk Lee knocking Gai out.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Nov 26, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Base Kimmimaro implies Kimmimaro with no CS boost, he couldn't even keep up with Drunken Lee's movements, who while being more unpredictable, was much slower than Base Gai himself. Gai has much better speed and strength than Kimmimaro (base) plus the fact that lotus can hit harder.
> 
> Though saying Base Gai is kage level is just pathetic and makes no sense. He can't compete with likes of Ei, Onoki, Tsunade (With Katsuyu, at least) and whatnot. Kage level isn't exactly base though, because many kages are quite pathetic in base form, it's just that overall being strong as hell, being able to take part in any scenario and situations, and being overall, well, op'ed. Might Gai overall is more or less kage level if we include 7th gate, and pretty much surpasses kage level if we include NIght Gai.
> 
> Though Base Gai is pales in comparison to kages, base or no base.



*Im saying Gai in general is kage level. I said he could take lots of enemies in his base form and when he needs it is capable of moon prism power (gates) and that goes for the rest of my list. *


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## Yoko (Nov 26, 2015)

Any opponents that base Guy can beat base Kimimaro can beat.  Kimimaro's "moon prism" power-up is his pseudo-Sage Mode in CS1 and CS2.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Nov 26, 2015)

*I may be wrong but Gai tells Tsunade that he could've easily taken down Lee but wouldn't hurt a hair on his body, he's precious you see.*


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Where in databook is it ever stated that Drunken Lee is > Base Gai? I might have missed something, sorry.



.​


> Just what's with those drunken frenzies _*even Guy can't handle?!*_ The usually well-spoken Lee charges with the destructive power of an explosion!!



Which shouldn't be that surprising. Kimimaro was given a 5 in taijutsu, a 4.5 in speed, and was easily deflecting multiple KN0 and normal Lee. Drunken Lee was on another level, wholly unpredictable. 

It's unreasonable to think base Gai could easily counter Drunk Lee when Kimimaro did not, given their near equal databook scores and the manga & databook statements. Drunk Lee's underestimated.

The difference between base Gai and Kimimaro is that Kimimaro's body is a fucking tank that endures hits like a friend. He regenerates like Tsunade and his bones make Domu-like armor.​


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> YES. "Kage-Level" has been prostituted around so much that dudes like noob-ass hidan and konan qualify for some people.



S-rank criminal means Kage-level criminal. We knows that in ranks for techniques, B was Jonin, A was Kage, and so it stands to reason that S is _comfortably_ Kage.​


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## Mercurial (Nov 26, 2015)

Base Gai handled Obito's Kamui phasing/warp touching in CQC far better than Minato did. Minato was captured by young Obito's chain and had to use Hiraishin to dodge (1) (and at that point he already knew that his opponent was able to phase through attacks), base Gai could jump in a fight between adult Obito and KCM Naruto saving Naruto at the last moment (2) and fending off Obito that couldn't literally put a finger to him due to Gai's reflexes and taijutsu skill (3)(4)(5). He countered Obito's CQC Kamui and even took the luxury to fight off Obito with his back turned. Obito was making child's play of KCM Naruto.

Base Gai could react to Obito's Kamui warp (of one of his nunchaku) and move during the time of the warp (Minato barely managed to activate Hiraishin and teleport away in the same time) (6).

Gates enhance physical speed and strength by removing the body's limiters, they don't enhance reflexes. Base Gai is able to react to his own speed in Gates, even 6th (that blitzes Kisame and counterblitzes Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 jinchuriki) and 7th Gate (that pressures Juudara far more than SM Minato did), and even 8th Gate too (that blitzes Juudara and even reaches a speed high enough that his movement bends the surrounding space).

Gai's base strength casually destroys concrete (7)(8) and with his nunchaku he literally pulverizes giant boulders like they were nothing, impressing Obito (9). His skill is such that he can disarm Kisame from the Samehada using his fucking legs (10); please note that the Shoten clone wasn't Kisame at 30% of his general power, but Kisame with the same strength, jutsu, speed, smartness, durability and whatever the original had, he just had 30% of the chakra of the true Kisame.

It's also worth note that Kakashi and base Gai were able to dodge that fast and wide AoE attack for a long time (11)(12)(13)() from the completely transformed Rokubi.

His speed, reflexes and physical strength are over the roof even in base, obviously he is not as fast and powerful as he is with Gates, not to mention the special taijutsu moves he can use with the Gates. But in base he definitely defeats Chiyo, Yamato, Hidan, Asuma, Zabuza, Darui, Mifune, Tsunade, old Sarutobi. Depending on conditions he defeats Mei (he easily stomps her with a fight starting at short range, he probably won't win a fight starting at long range).

Call me when Kimimaro has the feats that base Gai has. Obito would one-panel warp Kimimaro, with or without knowledge for the latter. He tagged Minato of all people, as a youngster. He couldn't tag base Gai, as an adult. People saying that base Gai got beated by Kisame, lol. On a general level, he is, sure, Gai needs some Gates to defeat Kisame confortably. But he was just surprised by Kisame's superhuman strength, just that, he managed to disarm Kisame from Samehada with his fucking legs before.


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## Ersa (Nov 26, 2015)

The cursed seal boost is significant as well.

It augments reflexes to the point where Sasuke compares it to Sharingan.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

^ and that's just CS1.


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## LostSelf (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Which Kage does the Sound Five beat?



Looks like tired Genma and Raido are kage level.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Looks like tired Genma and Raido are kage level.



They didn't injure any of the Sound 4 at all. The only backlash the Sound 4 suffered was from using CS2 to quickly and silently wipe them out so fast that Shizune was freaking out.

A testament to Sound 4 skill would be easily infiltrating Konoha, remaining undetected by any Jonin, and Sakon saying that, _at most_, it would take two of them to defeat Kakashi as they watched him.

Base Sakon easily beat up post-CE Sasuke, who was a _strong_ Chunin, and the sound 4 were collectively Orochimaru's top lieutenants in the Sound Village. They were Jonin. 

Not elite Jonin like Kakashi, but definitely Jonin. They lost to good match ups of characters with extremely heightened power levels from what had been previously seen (Kamatari, death pills.)​


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## LostSelf (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> They didn't injure any of the Sound 4 at all. The only backlash the Sound 4 suffered was from using CS2 to quickly and silently wipe them out so fast that Shizune was freaking out.
> 
> A testament to Sound 4 skill would be easily infiltrating Konoha, remaining undetected by any Jonin, and Sakon saying that, _at most_, it would take two of them to defeat Kakashi as they watched him.
> 
> ...



Genma and Raido are not kage level. Let alone tired, not as a duo either. You can put them against even rusty Tsunade and she should school them.

They infiltrated when the village was busy having some exams. You can argue two of them being Jounin, but them in what level are the two Jounin they faced, who are not remotely close to the likes of Kakashi?

They lost to Chuunin, nonetheless. I doubt any of these Chunin, bar Gaara, (who would've stomped any of them individualy) can take on a Jounin and win.

The sound 4 are very powerful indeed. But definitely not Kage level. That's too much.


----------



## Kor (Nov 26, 2015)

I think S-rank would be a better measurment then Low-Kage or Mid-Kage and all that silly nonsense. I know it is generally used for missing nin in canon but it's better then calling every sap who can make a Kage break a sweat Kage level.

S-rank is someone who can contend with most if not all known Kage or other S-rank nin.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Genma and Raido are not kage level. Let alone tired, not as a duo either. You can put them against even rusty Tsunade and she should school them.



You can't say that with certainty, as we don't know what they can do. All we know is that Shizune, a Jonin, didn't understand how both her teammates could be defeated. It was beyond her.​


LostSelf said:


> They infiltrated when the village was busy having some exams.



And Itachi infiltrated when the village was mourning Hiruzen. Both are lame excuses. Konoha is a military base with many protective measures in place. Infiltrating it is impressive.​


LostSelf said:


> You can argue two of them being Jounin, but them in what level are the two Jounin they faced, who are not remotely close to the likes of Kakashi?



As stated before, we don't actually know their levels because we never saw them fight. Kakashi was known as the strongest Jonin, so he's stronger than them individually, but by how much is unknown.​


LostSelf said:


> They lost to Chuunin, nonetheless.



Pain lost to a Genin. Hidan lost to a Chunin. Etc. Temari was a Chunin with a _Kage level_ summon (different thread) to clean house. _Butterfly_ Choji was definitely not Chunin level. 

Neji had Jonin level CQC stats and perfect abilities to counter Kidomaru. Sakon was weakened by Kiba's unforeseen suicide-move, and then fell into a puppet ambush, just like Deidara and Sasori did.​


LostSelf said:


> I doubt any of these Chunin, bar Gaara



Gaara had never been shown as a Chunin level. He finished the 2nd test of the CE faster than any Chunin ever, _by hours_. SRA Gaara was essentially the Godaime at that point as Rasa had been killed.​


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## Mercurial (Nov 26, 2015)

Sound Four full power allows them to barely defeated tired and chakra exhausted Genma and Raido (jonin level shinobi) in a 4 vs 2 battle. It was implied that fresh Genma and Raido > Sound Four, in a 2 vs 4 battle. What the fucking is this Sound Four wank based on, exactly, nothing. Tayuya's genjutsu was broken by Part 1 Shikamaru. Jirobo could be stomped by fodder Choji with some special enhancement. Kidomaru was very skilled, yes, but Part 1 Neji is not like a God Tier opponent. The same can be said for Sakon/Ukon and Kiba.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> It was implied that fresh Genma and Raido > Sound Four



Really?


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Base Gai handled Obito's Kamui phasing/warp touching in CQC far better than Minato did. Minato was captured by young Obito's chain and had to use Hiraishin to dodge (1) (and at that point he already knew that his opponent was able to phase through attacks), base Gai could jump in a fight between adult Obito and KCM Naruto saving Naruto at the last moment (2) and fending off Obito that couldn't literally put a finger to him due to Gai's reflexes and taijutsu skill (3)(4)(5). He countered Obito's CQC Kamui and even took the luxury to fight off Obito with his back turned. Obito was making child's play of KCM Naruto.
> 
> Base Gai could react to Obito's Kamui warp (of one of his nunchaku) and move during the time of the warp (Minato barely managed to activate Hiraishin and teleport away in the same time) (6).
> 
> ...



This. Exactly. Base Kimmimaro has shown no feats comparable to base Gai. Stating that Drunken Lee is > Base Gai just because of "Even Gai can't handle those fenzies!" part which clearly implies in a comical way of Gai attempting to calm down Lee or so, feats and portrayal-wise Gai takes a poop on drunken Lee.



Raikiri19 said:


> Sound Four full power allows them to barely defeated tired and chakra exhausted Genma and Raido (jonin level shinobi) in a 4 vs 2 battle. It was implied that fresh Genma and Raido > Sound Four, in a 2 vs 4 battle. What the fucking is this Sound Four wank based on, exactly, nothing. Tayuya's genjutsu was broken by Part 1 Shikamaru. Jirobo could be stomped by fodder Choji with some special enhancement. Kidomaru was very skilled, yes, but Part 1 Neji is not like a God Tier opponent. The same can be said for Sakon/Ukon and Kiba.



However this, I don't agree with. Sound 4 clearly stated that they were only exhausted due to side effects from entering second cursed state and here it was clearly implied that according to Genma, who is obviously strongest out of the two and was among Hokage's elite guards* (Much below Jounin level  he even knows Minato/Tobirama's jutsu and has considerably good stats and could hold off against a Jounin as in Baki. Anyone who says he's below Jounin is kidding me)* the Sound 4 were so strong that they would kill a Jounin like Shizune despite the fact that the fight just ended.

Not to mention, none of S4 had any injuries on them and it was clearly implied that they trashed the crap out of S4.

Neji is not a god tier opponent, and was completely trashed by Kidomaru till he caught him off guard by that last attack, Sakon and Ukon were reking Kiba too, and to be honest, if It wasn't for Kiba's suicide attempt, they'd win with minimal injuries. Chouji is 100x strength of his normal self, stating that he is not at least a low-jounin level at that point is pretty much false fact 

Though Jirobu was pretty weak compared to other S4, due to not having speed obviously.


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> *
> Id say the "weakest" of "kage level" opponents is Gaara & Naruto (beginning of shippuden)
> I wouldn't consider the two low Akatsuki teams (Deidara & Sasori Hidan & Kakuzu) kage level, each of these members has amazing jutsu and are capable of taking kage level opponents (maybe) but none should be considered kage level. *



How the hell are Deidara, Sasori and Kakuzu not Kage level? One defeated a Kage the other was partnered with Orochimaru and completely innovated an entire aspect of the ninja world along with soloing the strongest kage in suna history and the last went toe to toe with Hashirama and was essentially fighting 4 opponents at once when he was taken down while missing a heart. Makes no sense seeing as they all beat your weakest Kage quite comfortably (besides maybe Sasori vs Gaara)


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 26, 2015)

Sound 4 is shit, Sound 5 might be up to the task though.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 26, 2015)

Sasori is absolutely Kage level. Has techniques that allow him to engage large numbers of opponents at once. Wide assortment of jutsus. Capable of prolonged high intensity combat with chakra and physical capabilities. And probably the 3rd best suited in the entire naruto series for engaging opponents without prior knowledge of abilities. Sasori is actually mid kage level roughly. He loses to some people weaker than him in a rock paper scissor mechanic but Sasori is actually really impressive.


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## LostSelf (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> You can't say that with certainty, as we don't know what they can do. All we know is that Shizune, a Jonin, didn't understand how both her teammates could be defeated. It was beyond her.​



And then they explained why. Tired and low on chakra. Do you remember what happens when you have low chakra? Let's remember Kisame's state.

And the sound 4 had to go all out, and were tired, with marks of fighting. Put them against both Genma and Raido non-tired and with good chakra and we might've seen a different result.



> And Itachi infiltrated when the village was mourning Hiruzen. Both are lame excuses. Konoha is a military base with many protective measures in place. Infiltrating it is impressive.​



It's funny that you call a lame excuse when everybody has infiltrated the village before. Unless you tell me that the sound 4 are as skilled as Itachi and Pain. When we don't even know if they managed to infiltrate there because of Orochimaru. Konoha had a barrier that inmediately noticed Pain.

If the S4 weren't noticed was surely because the barrier was not there at that moment.



> As stated before, we don't actually know their levels because we never saw them fight. Kakashi was known as the strongest Jonin, so he's stronger than them individually, but by how much is unknown.​



We know they're below Asuma, Gai and Kakashi, for instance. Considering they're the high jonins Kishimoto bothered to show and tell us.



> Pain lost to a Genin. Hidan lost to a Chunin. Etc. Temari was a Chunin with a _Kage level_ summon (different thread) to clean house. _Butterfly_ Choji was definitely not Chunin level.
> 
> Neji had Jonin level CQC stats and perfect abilities to counter Kidomaru. Sakon was weakened by Kiba's unforeseen suicide-move, and then fell into a puppet ambush, just like Deidara and Sasori did.​



Pain lost to a Genin? Or Pain who was actively looking to Naruto, talking with Tsunade, and not caring for a Genin? Or you're going to tell me that Konohamaru is stronger than two Jonin and Ebisu, who were schooled by Naraka alone? I don't know what a cheap shot has to do with the S4. Because what the S4 did doesn't put them on _Kage Level_. You can argue they are high Jounin together or whatever. They were stomped by Kimimaro, and had to go all out against two badly nerfed Jonin. That's not kage. A rusty Kage forced someone comparable to Kakashi to use dirty tactics, because he was going to be defeated.

No, wait. A shinobi comparable to Kakashi had to use soldier pills and dirty tactics in order to fight a Kage level who had not fight for years, had drinking habits and was tired.

If the sound 4 were remotely close to the level of rusty Tsunade, they wouldn't have had so many troubles against two Jonin.

A Kage would moop the floor with those two Jonin and beat Kmimaro. Or is Lee above them, since we saw base Lee contending with Kimi.



> Gaara had never been shown as a Chunin level. He finished the 2nd test of the CE faster than any Chunin ever, _by hours_. SRA Gaara was essentially the Godaime at that point as Rasa had been killed.​



I never said Gaara was Chunin level in terms of power, only rank. Wich is why i said "bar Gaara".


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## LostSelf (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Really?



You know Watami was a Chunin, right?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> And then they explained why. Tired and low on chakra. Do you remember what happens when you have low chakra? Let's remember Kisame's state.




 Thing is, Kisame is far more dependant on high levels of stamina compared the other two along with the fact that Kisame could hardly even move. The guy had to hobble off using his sword.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> It's funny that you call a lame excuse when everybody has infiltrated the village before. Unless you tell me that the sound 4 are as skilled as Itachi and Pain. When we don't even know if they managed to infiltrate there because of Orochimaru.



Orochimaru was not in the village at the time. 



LostSelf said:


> No, wait. A shinobi comparable to Kakashi had to use soldier pills and dirty tactics in order to fight a Kage level



"Dirty tactics?" Soldier pills are tools like any other jutsu. 



LostSelf said:


> If the sound 4 were remotely close to the level of rusty Tsunade, they wouldn't have had so many troubles against two Jonin.



What trouble? Using CS2 to be safe? They cleaned house.



LostSelf said:


> Or is Lee above them, since we saw base Lee contending with Kimi.



Lee couldn't hit Kimimaro until drunk. DB says Drunk Lee > Base Gai.



LostSelf said:


> I never said Gaara was Chunin level in terms of power, only rank. Wich is why i said "bar Gaara".




Kamatari
Butterfly Choji
SRA Neji
None of these individuals are Chunin level either. They'd all IMO fodderize kid Kakashi (no Sharingan) who is the bottom line for Jonin power and rank.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

God, is this 4 pages of more sound 4 wank bullshit? Fuck off with the sound 4, jesus.


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

Lol, Vice gets so heated at Sound 4 talk 

I personally think we need to be a little more strict. Because if we say Sound 4 is Kage level then we open the door to saying that VotE Sasuke is Low Kage or some shit. It can get asinine.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Lol, Vice gets so heated at Sound 4 talk
> 
> I personally think we need to be a little more strict. Because if we say Sound 4 is Kage level then we open the door to saying that VotE Sasuke is Low Kage or some shit. It can get asinine.



Vice is someone who claims Zabuza can blitz S4 from a distance of 50 meters without any logic 

Either way, S4 are nowhere near kage-level, if they are then post-skip Neji, Lee and Kiba must all be mid-high Kages. But really, they aren't chunin levels, they destroyed two special Jounins (ONe of which was Hokage's elite guards and arguably not anywhere near lower than a decent Jounin) without sporting a single injury. Stating they were defeated by Genins or Chuunins-tier is just hilariously stupid.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> God, is this 4 pages of more sound 4 wank bullshit? Fuck off with the sound 4, jesus.



 Base Sakon evaded one of the fastest "Chuunin", according to the Databook,* point-blank * and that "Chuunin" was using a technique that greatly enhances his speed.

 Seeing as how CS2 Sakon is far greater than Base Sakon, how many Chuunin can actually replicate that feat?

 I'll wait for your response.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Kankuro beat him no difficulty. Kankuro is a chunin. Fuck off with the sound 4.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 26, 2015)

Imo a kage level is someone who received particular types of hype. 


You could hold the position; Hiruzen was defacto kage level for having the position.
Your depicted way above jonin level by a jonin[1][2]
Your S-class
The author didn't really define a gap between jonin to kage so I assume people >> jonin are at minimum low kage although to be fair it can be a large spectrum and people higher can potentially dominate multiple lower kages.

Then from there you get the rest of the kages by associative hype or direct battles. Jiriaya/Tsunade for instance were kage level as soon as they were revealed to be part of the "3" ninjas Orochimaru was from, atleast in my book.

S-level varies just as much as kage level; there are some very weak and very strong ones but even Hidan whom I consider the weakest was said to be way stronger than a jonin so i think it bottoms out at low kage.

That's just for _who's_ kage level though and not where they actually place in that spectrum. Defining the spectrum is a lot more opinionated I feel and open to interpretation.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> Kankuro beat him no difficulty. Kankuro is a chunin. Fuck off with the sound 4.



Sakon was exhausted and arguably out of chakra. Nah, you're just mad because S4 are low Jounin level(That is considering likes of Base Gai high Jounin level), unlike how you claim w/o any proof.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> Kankuro beat him no difficulty. Kankuro is a chunin. Fuck off with the sound 4.



 Did you also miss the fact that CS2 greatly diminishes their physical strength?
 2



			
				Tayuya said:
			
		

> We lose too much strength when we fight at Cursed Seal Level 2.



 Check. 

 Did you also forget that Ukon admitted that he wasn't accustomed to being the "host"? 

 2



			
				Sakon said:
			
		

> We don't have much remaining chakra ...





			
				Ukon said:
			
		

> I'm usually not in control of the main body, so ... This makes moving a bit difficult ... Heh.



 Checkmate.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Kimimaro is jonin level and they soundly lost to him with a 4 on 1 advantage and even had Tayuya's apparent game breaking genjutsu in their favor too. 

I ain't mad at nothing, they're chunins because they couldn't handle other chunins.


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

See the thing is, Kage level people should be able to beat every jonin. They should have a considerable distance between them and Jonin. Even the lowest of the Low Kage should be able to mirk multiple jonin at a time. 

Another question. Is Jugo Kage level?


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

We have no idea if Kimimaro had faced the Sound 4 all at once.

 We only know that Tayuya pissed herself when Sick Kimimaro showed up and even Kidoumaru mentioned after his fight with Neji that he never felt so fatigued besides when he fought Kimimaro.

 Besides that, we have no idea. Anime filler is not something to go by and even the Sound Four weren't doubtful about handling Kakashi.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 26, 2015)

The weakest Kage is probably Mei or old Hiruzen.

Anyone equal to or stronger than them is Kage-level; they are on the level of the bare minimum power known to exist among those who hold the title of Kage.

Chiyo and Kimimaro are not Kage-level.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> Kimimaro is jonin level and they soundly lost to him with a 4 on 1 advantage and even had Tayuya's apparent game breaking genjutsu in their favor too.
> 
> I ain't mad at nothing, they're chunins because they couldn't handle other chunins.



Kimmimaru >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your typical Jounins like Shizune, Zabuza, etc etc etc. Based on feats, portrayal and official stats.

You claim those "others' are chuunins when they clearly have much superior feats than Jounin tiers like Shizune and Zabuza  Plus you fail to explain how they are Chuunin level rather than "Oh they are because that's their rank"

INb4 Genin Naruto >> Kaguya.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> See the thing is, Kage level people should be able to beat every jonin. They should have a considerable distance between them and Jonin. Even the lowest of the Low Kage should be able to mirk multiple jonin at a time.
> 
> Another question. Is Jugo Kage level?



 CS2 Jugo is.

 CS Jugo isn't as his abilities were on par with Suigetsu's who was portrayed as inferior to Zabuza who's an Elite Jonin. Likewise, CS2 Jugo was confident that he could instantly take out a high level Jonin ninja who was at the rear of Kumo's formation despite there being a Kage Level ninja.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> CS2 Jugo is.
> 
> CS Jugo isn't as his abilities were on par with Suigetsu's who was portrayed as inferior to Zabuza who's an Elite Jonin. Likewise, CS2 Jugo was confident that he could instantly take out a high level Jonin ninja who was at the rear of Kumo's formation despite there being a Kage Level ninja.


Okay what? I don't care about Juugo's confidence, he looses it when he goes ape shit. Juugo dies horribly against any kage out there.

Suigetsu >>> Juugo in any form.

Juugo managed to barely react to Ei blitzing at him while Suigetsu interrupted Ei's blitz from 30-50 meters away alone proves Suigetsu's much superior speed. Juugo's chakra canons take charge time and are easy to dodge and Juugo has no way of hurting Suigetsu. There are several scenarios.

Suigetsu blitzes and drowns Juugo.
Juugo tries to blitz and drowns.

Either way, Suigetsu takes a water dump on Juugo here, and neither of them are above elite Jounin level.

Suigetsu >>> Zabuza.

Speed: Much faster, Zabuza never managed to keep up with Kakashi's speed and only managed to surprise him and temporarily manage to beat him in a close combat taijutsu match solely because of water clone. While Suigetsu interrupted an Ei blitz from meters away.

Strength: Suigetsu's unboosted strength was much greater than Zabuza's as shown when he attacked KB head on.

Ability: Suigetsu is immune to 70% of attacks out there.

Suigetsu overall is stronger than Zabuza in almost every aspect.


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## LostSelf (Nov 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Thing is, Kisame is far more dependant on high levels of stamina compared the other two along with the fact that Kisame could hardly even move. The guy had to hobble off using his sword.



Low on chakra affects everybody. Freaking Tsunade, a Senju and Uzumaki, was passing out when all her chakra was used. Heck, she went into a coma.



Sadgoob said:


> Orochimaru was not in the village at the time.



Still doesn't change the fact that the village was not the best against anti-infiltrators, and probably in part 2 was when they put the barrier.



> "Dirty tactics?" Soldier pills are tools like any other jutsu.



He had to use her blood phobia against her, because he was going to lose even with all those advantages.



> What trouble? Using CS2 to be safe? They cleaned house.


They had troubles. Having to use your strongest jutsu, and then complaining of having no time to rest, having marks of fighting, etc. is not an easy victory.



> Lee couldn't hit Kimimaro until drunk. DB says Drunk Lee > Base Gai.



When you show me Drunk Lee forcing Sharingan Obito to phase with multiple strikes before Obito finishes his first counter, then no. It was never implied Lee was better than Gai. The "Gai passing out" has a lot of answers. One is, of course, being drunk.



> Kamatari
> Butterfly Choji
> SRA Neji
> None of these individuals are Chunin level either. They'd all IMO fodderize kid Kakashi (no Sharingan) who is the bottom line for Jonin power and rank.



Hiruzen is kage level without any of these. Katamari or SRA Neji won't let them beat the likes of Kakashi. I put you the example again. Super Kabuto couldn't do it against rusty and exhausted Tsunade. That alone shows a huge gap.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> They had troubles. Having to use your strongest jutsu, and then complaining of having no time to rest, having marks of fighting, etc. is not an easy victory.


No. They stated they were tired because of side effects of CS2 and they clearly didn't show any external injury or so, Genma straight up claimed that they were damned strong and the jutsu they used was out of their league. Note that while one can spam talk crap about Genma being special Jounin, Genma himself was specialized at being elite guard of Hokage, which alone proves his worth.

Though S4 are fodders compared to kage level


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## LostSelf (Nov 26, 2015)

Ehm, that's not "winning without troubles". Who do you think pushed them to that? They basically said they were going to be defeated without CS2.

Genma and Raido put them in that state, because they didn't use the CS2 for sport's sake. It was a do it or you're fucked.


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Kimmimaru >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your typical Jounins like Shizune, Zabuza, etc etc etc. Based on feats, portrayal and official stats.



Typical Jounins don't struggle with injured base Lee. :^)


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Ehm, that's not "winning without troubles". Who do you think pushed them to that? They basically said they were going to be defeated without CS2.
> 
> Genma and Raido put them in that state, because they didn't use the CS2 for sport's sake. It was a do it or you're fucked.



Not really, they had no intel on the two of them and just assumed they were strong because they thought they were Konoha Jounins (as kidomaru says that). They started using CS instantly before the fight even began.

Nothing suggests that Genma and Raido forced them to transform, Kidomaru stated that they couldn't take the risk of saving energy by using CS2, because in that case, they *might've lost.*

After fighting them, even Kidomaru himself partially believes that they only "might" have lost against them without CS , basically implying he thinks they "might" have won too.

Also, I am talking about S4 overall, considering their CS2 state feats, they are low-mid Jounin tier (That is putting likes of  Sharingan Kakashi (not MS) at extremely high Jounin tier). 

CS2 boosts their powers tenfold, nothing suggests that they didn't destroy Genma and Raido after transforming.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Typical Jounins don't struggle with injured base Lee. :^)


Zabuza must be a chuunin then since he lost to dogs, and Shizune is even more of a crap feat-wise.


----------



## Ghost (Nov 26, 2015)

Except that Zabuza didn't lose to dogs. And did Shizune even keep up her strength after leaving the village with Tsunade? Probably not.


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

The thing is Kimimaro is pushed to his absolute limit by SRA Gaara. SRA Gaara is not Kage level even though his  sand manipulation is out of control at that point, mainly because of Shukaku too. So that is an interesting debate. I could see why people put him at Kage level, he was also brought back through Edo Tensei, which seemingly only brought back great shinobi. A lot to think about with him

However I'm not ready to put Sound 4 anywhere near Kage level. Every Kage out there should annihilate them with equal ground/circumstances being equal


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Except that Zabuza didn't lose to dogs. And did Shizune even keep up her strength after leaving the village with Tsunade? Probably not.



Zabuza did loose to dogs. In his entire fight against sharingan-less Kakashi, all Kakashi did was summon dogs and Zabuza  couldn't move his ass 

Shizune is feat-less fodder, prove me wrong in any way, please.


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

Shizune is a joke. Never got her hype.


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Zabuza did loose to dogs. In his entire fight against sharingan-less Kakashi, all Kakashi did was summon dogs and Zabuza  couldn't move his ass


And? They were summoned by _Kakashi_ into a perfect spot. And the dogs were nowhere near killing Zabuza. He was going to die to a Raikiri not to some dogs. 



> Shizune is feat-less fodder, prove me wrong in any way, please.



She's lacking feats. And I just offered a possible explanation why she hasn't looked that impressive. She's also mainly a medic ninja.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Shizune is a joke. Never got her hype.



But she's a Jounin, no? Funny how the only thing I've been getting against S4 is that they lost to chuunin rank shinobis, but when actual Jounins have been pretty much of a joke. Zabuza is featless in everything minus CQC (Given the fact he overpowered Kakashi after tricking him via water clone in thick mist, conditional but still a notable feat) and yet he is hyped as elite as hell.

S4 are fodders compared to Kage level, they aren't even high Jounin levels, but saying they're chuunin is friggin' overdoing it.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Did they beat the chunin that were placed in front of them?


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Ghost said:


> And? They were summoned by _Kakashi_ into a perfect spot. And the dogs were nowhere near killing Zabuza. He was going to die to a Raikiri not to some dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> She's lacking feats. And I just offered a possible explanation why she hasn't looked that impressive. She's also mainly a medic ninja.




Doesn't matter a sharingan-less Kakashi managed to make Zabuza unable to move by only using one jutsu, which are dogs.

You claim S4 are fodders because they got destroyed by a jutsu which clears forest yet a "chuunin-tier" used it. Explain how dogs >> A jutsu clearing entire forest up?

Zabuza isn't anywhere near above Mid special Jounin tier tier if S4 are high chuunins, get real, he takes 40 hand signs to do the only jutsus he knows and has no speed feats (Unless we go bydatabooks, something you dislike) other than being average at close combat. No speed feats, no durability feats, being overpowered by dogs, ain't beating anyone who doesn't loose massive advantage in mist.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> Did they beat the chunin that were placed in front of them?



Mind explaining how what feats of "chuunin" Temari is below "Elite Jounin" Zabuza. Clearing an entire forest within seconds.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Nononono Shanal... did they beat the chunin-level guys that were placed in front of them? Yes or no?


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> Nononono Shanal... did they beat the chunin-level guys that were placed in front of them? Yes or no?



I would answer if they were ever placed against Chunin-level guys at first place.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

So to reiterate, the one confirmed jonin they went up against, they lost 4 on 1, it took their strongest forms to beat up on 2 exhausted special jonins as a collective group, who survived mind you, and when placed in a situation where they could have easily put to rest any doubts they were jonin-level, they all lost individually to chunin-level opponents... okay then. We should be done here, right? Right?


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> So to reiterate, the one confirmed jonin they went up against, they lost 4 on 1, it took their strongest forms to beat up on 2 exhausted special jonins as a collective group, who survived mind you, and when placed in a situation where they could have easily put to rest any doubts they were jonin-level, they all lost individually to chunin-level opponents... okay then. We should be done here, right? Right?



There's a thing called low, mid and high Jounin tiers. Kimmimaro in CS2 takes a shit on Base Gai and Sharingan Kakashi (Pre-skip, no MS) feat, portrayal and stats-wise. So yeah, not really much of a proof there. I never stated they were all individually high Jounins or something, I put them individually at High Special Jounin- Low Jounin tier, but Chunin is just you flaming with no proof.

None of them lost to Chunins individually, unless you want to admit that Genin rank Naruto > Kages. Chouji had his haxxed 100x booster pills, Neji was defeated by Kidomaru and won due to last minute trick (Neji himself was a High Special Jounin tier at this point) and Tayuya lost to Temari whose feats put her mid if not high Jounin tier depending upon distance. And then there's Kankuro who only managed to defeat Sakon while he was suffering from CS2 drawbacks + having Ukon as host who isn't used to it.

None of S4 individually lost to Chuunin tier opponents at all. I do have respect for you as an old member, but if you can't come up with a better argument than this against characters you "dislike", I dunno man . You have been neglecting feats and stats and only relying on the fact that they lost to "chuunins" who are in far above chuunin tier in terms of feats and portrayal.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Did anyone actually come up with a kage that the Sound 5 can beat?


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Kimmimaro in CS2 takes a shit on Base Gai and Sharingan Kakashi (Pre-skip, no MS) feat, portrayal and stats-wise.



 CS2 Kimi is slower than injured base Lee. He gets his shit blitzed in and one shotted by both Kakashi and Guy.


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Did anyone actually come up with a kage that the Sound 5 can beat?



I'd say they have a decent chance against old Hiruzen with Kusanagi through his torso.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Ghost said:


> CS2 Kimi is slower than injured base Lee. He gets his shit blitzed in and one shotted by both Kakashi and Guy.



That's why you shouldn't speak, Ghost, your knowledge of manga is nill 

Partial CS1 Kimmimaro easily managed to destroy drunken Rock Lee, whose movements are much more unpredictable than normal. Base Kimmimaro destroyed injured base Lee.

Lee never once managed to show any speed feat which was comparable to Kimmimaro's CS1, let alone CS2. Kimmimaro only requires partial awakening to destroy him there.



Rocky said:


> Did anyone actually come up with a kage that the Sound 5 can beat?



Are we even arguing about that? it's basically S4 getting flamed and being stated to be mere chuunin tier w/o any logic whatsoever. Every non-stupid one here knows that S4 are nowhere near kage level.


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2015)

Shanal said:


> That's why you shouldn't speak, Ghost, your knowledge of manga is nill



Oh, really?


> Partial CS1 Kimmimaro easily managed to destroy drunken Rock Lee, whose movements are much more unpredictable than normal. Base Kimmimaro destroyed injured base Lee.


No. Base Kimi was being pushed back by base Lee with a broken leg. And CS2 slows Kimimaro down.


> Lee never once managed to show any speed feat which was comparable to Kimmimaro's CS1


No, but base Lee with a broken leg was as fast as or a bit faster than base Kimi. base Kimi > CS2 Kimi in speed. Kakashi and Guy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part 1 Lee in speed.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 26, 2015)

Dear OP, I dont think we are being lenient with whose a kage. Its all about standars. Some people think the power requirement for a certain level is higher than what it actually is. For example, many say the Sound 4 are Chunin when they are in fact Jonin. They are all stronger than Shizune, Anko, izumo and Kotestu, all of which were Jonin. Its the same between Jonin and kage. Healthy Kimimaro and Chiyo are not High Jonin, they are Low Kage. As for Hidan and Konan, i'd say they are Jonin scratching the bottom of Low Kage as Hidan is usless if he cant get his enemy's blood, allowing Jonin like Kakashi and Shikamaru to trash him. Konan can be Kage level depdning on location and prep time but without that she can get neg diffed by Base Jiraiya, which doesnt make her worth of kage level as Healthy Kimimaro and Chiyo can actually put up a fight of a little against Base Jiraiya.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Oh, really?
> 
> No. Base Kimi was being pushed back by base Lee with a broken leg. And CS2 slows Kimimaro down.
> 
> No, but base Lee with a broken leg was as fast as or a bit faster than base Kimi. base Kimi > CS2 Kimi in speed. Kakashi and Guy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part 1 Lee in speed.



Show me proof, I am ignoring your retarded posts till then since I just came back from rereading the entire fight.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Which Kage does the Sound Five beat?


Raikage.
Mei.
Start of Part 2 Gaara.
Chiyo.
Rusty Tsunade (maybe)
Drugged Jiraiya (maybe)
Kimimaro lol (Kimimaro + Sound 4 > just Kimimaro = low kage tier)


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## Matty (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Did anyone actually come up with a kage that the Sound 5 can beat?



I don't know. IF Chiyo is considered a Kage they most likely thrash her. Other than her and maybe Mifune I can't see them beating anyone.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Raikage.
> Mei.
> Start of Part 2 Gaara.
> Chiyo.
> ...



No. Chiyo isn't even a kage.

Raikage , Mei, Part 2 Gaara >>>>>>>>>>> Drugged Jiraiya and Tsunade. The fact that you said (maybe) there alone proves your biasness. Your sannin wanking is so hard it hurts, according to you Jiraiya w/o summoning and proper chakra control can beat Ei, based on no feats at all.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Raikage.


















IzayaOrihara said:


> Start of Part 2 Gaara.



Sand Tsunami gg.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Mei.



Acid Mist gg.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Chiyo.
> Rusty Tsunade (maybe)
> Drugged Jiraiya (maybe)



Not kage level.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Not kage level.



Nah, according to Izaya S5 have a lower chance of beating drugged Jiraiya than Ei


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> The lowest kage level shinobi (from my perspective) has to be Beginning of Part 2 Kazekage Gaara (who lacked versatility) or Sasori. Neither Hidan nor Chiyo are kage-level by any stretch whatsoever, perhaps Chiyo in her prime could have been a candidate for low-kage class but not in her old age. Also, Konan isn't kage-level either, at best she's a mid jounin level, more like a specialist (e.g. Aoba).



Agree with everything except i think Chiyo is worthy of Kage. But i see where you're coming from as it does depend on who her opponent is.



> *The Definition of a Kage:*
> Kage level for me is comprised of a good balance of well talented, experienced, powerful and intellectual individuals. Those are of course broad strokes that could encompass literally anyone but from where I stand those categories should be the first filter that should be applied in searching for suitable candidate for being kage-level.


10/10 definition.



> The poorest choice for kage has to be Gaara who was basically forced into it because there was no one else who could do it effectively in the sand.


I love that you said this as what people dont realise is that the village has to select a kage whether they have someone of that level or not. For example, i think Mei could be a High Jonin as she really isnt all that.



> He definitely did not have the intellect or experience to establish a strong foothold in the beginning of part 2. He did however have an abundant amount power and decent intellect, which I believe earned him the spot. However, despite his shortcomings he grew into the role towards end of the series when he was able to do what he did while not having the same power.


Gaara aint all that. Deidara only used C1 and C3 in the fight and beat him up. He even held back cos he couldnt kill the jinchuriki. 



> Most of the mid-tier Akatsuki members (Kisame, Kakuzu, Deidara) were strong enough to pose a considerable threat to any of the kages (individually) so by virtue of their strength, unique skill-sets and overall ninjutsu prowess they have always been solid kage-level shinobi in my book.


This.



> Sasori, however, I believe fluctuates far too much based on his opponents,


Exactly. Apparently, Sasori > Deidara yet which one of them has more chance against Orochimaru? Deidara can give him a run for his money but Orochimaru could potentially stomp Sasori. I always use this aregument when comparing Sasori to others. But even still, i belive he is stronger than Deidara because maybe Orochimaru would be a bad match up for him. If it was up against Hebi Sasuke then Sasori would look better as he is immune to genjutsu (he has no nervous system) and anything else Sasuke has bar Manda, is useless to Sasori. I'd say Deidara and Kisame are comfortable mid Kage. Kakuzu is a lower mid Kage. And maybe Sasori is a low Kage.



> as long as he draws puppeteers and close quarters/taijutsu-based opponents he'll always be in the lead.
> 
> It's for that very reason he beats Tsunade but when matched against kage-level shinobi that use ninjutsu, specifically mid to long-range fighters


Sorry i'll have to stop you there. Sasori aint beating Tsunade. She is faster and better than Sakura who evaded most of Sasori's hits. Tsunade will evade them all and even if she gets hit she can ignore it. Poison shuts down your cells but Sozo Saisei flushes out/burns all the old cells and creates new ones through divison and chakra stimulation. Other than that she just CQC GG's all of the puppets. What the f*ck could Sasori actually do to Katsuyu, a slug slightly bigger than Gamabunta, who is equalled to a Bijuu in size.



> (e.g. Mei, Oonoki, Kakuzu, Kisame, Jiraiya and etc.) he's actually at quite the disadvantage. That's why he's my pick for the lowest kage-level shinobi because he can in fact beat a kage, however it's really contingent upon luck of the draw.


Yeah. Thats why he's a low kage. He's too one sided. For example, Kisame is good in CQC and at distance so is a mid kage. Jiraiya and Orochimaru can adapt to any situation so they are High Kages with Nagato while Tsunade is at the top of mid Kage due to her limited offence despite how powerful she is. 



> However, despite being kage-level shinobi, that doesn't mean they are suitable replacements for kages though. The list of suitable kage candidates consists of Pain/Nagato, Itachi, Kisame, Shikaku, Danzo, Yamato, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Sakura, Kitsuchi, Ao to name a few.


Kitsuchi and Ao cannot be Kages. They are useless in that field. Sakura is a good candidate since she is just Tsunade but weaker. Tsunade can save the whole village. Jiraiya and Orochimaru yes. Power and intelligence. Yamato no because he's too weak and not that smart. Danzo yes as he is an equal to Hiruzen and has the drive to be a Kage. Shikaku has the intelligence but not the power. There was a reason they nominated Kakashi instead of him. Kisame no. He has power but thats it. Hes like hulk. A brute. All brawl and no brains. Im not saying hes dumb, but hes not intelligent like Orochimaru. He hasnt got philosophies and willpower like Jiraiya. He isnt speciliased  for protecting a village like Tsunade and Gaara are (thats the reason Gaara is a Kage since he can protect people from Deidara but he himself cant actually beat him).  Itachi is a tricky one but i'll just say he makes a good Kage to save myself being bashed. And Nagato was a Kage remeber. Not a Kage but a village leader. Anyway i like to call them Kages i.e. Hanzo/Nagato is the Amekage of Amegakure, Orochimaru is the Otokage or Otogakure,. etc etc. Nagato has the mindset, the power to beat threats to his village and the power to protect them.


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## Soljah (Nov 26, 2015)

Kage level to me is a ninja whose ability is high in every aspect more than the avg.   Kage lead villages and aren't just strong but intelligent so there can be ninjas that have kage level attributes but not there yet completely.  Hidan and Kimmimaro aren't kage material they're just strong soldiers to use imo characters more like Kakashi,Oro,Shikamaru,Kakuzu/age/str/intelligence (money management skill >>) Asuma is kage material too just got haxxed.  Alot could be named but power alone isn't kage to me.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 26, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Nah, according to Izaya S5 have a lower chance of beating drugged Jiraiya than Ei


Kimimaro can dodge or tank Ei in CS2. Tayuya can Genjutsu him. Kidomaru can shoot an arrow if Kimi creates an opening. They might not beat him but with teamwork they can put up a fight. On the other hand, what can they do against Yomi Numa?


Rocky said:


> Sand Tsunami gg.


Rashomon blocks and Sawarabi no Mai pierces gaara from under the sand. Kidomaru shoots arrow when he evades and Tayuya sets up Genjutsu.


> Acid Mist gg.


No. Rashomon intercepts.


> Not kage level.


Chiyo/Rusty Tsunade/Drugged jiraiya are all low kage.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 26, 2015)

Soljah said:


> Kage level to me is a ninja whose ability is high in every aspect more than the avg.   Kage lead villages and aren't just strong but intelligent so there can be ninjas that have kage level attributes but not there yet completely.  Hidan and Kimmimaro aren't kage material they're just strong soldiers to use imo characters more like Kakashi,Oro,Shikamaru,Kakuzu/age/str/intelligence (money management skill >>) Asuma is kage material too just got haxxed.  Alot could be named but power alone isn't kage to me.



I agree but seriously thats why i say Hidan isnt Kage level, hes an elite Jonin


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Show me proof, I am ignoring your retarded posts till then since I just came back from rereading the entire fight.



Maybe you should actually read the fight. :^) Did you also conveniently miss the parts where base Kimi and Lee were clearly operating on same speed levels?


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Kimimaro can dodge or tank Ei in CS2.







IzayaOrihara said:


> Tayuya can Genjutsu him. Kidomaru can shoot an arrow if Kimi creates an opening.



Those two would be dead before they even realized what happened. 



IzayaOrihara said:


> Rashomon blocks.



A sand Tsunami? No, no it doesn't.



IzayaOrihara said:


> No. Rashomon intercepts.



Acid Mist? No, no it...what the _fuck?_


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Kimimaro can dodge or tank Ei in CS2.



Stop posting.



Rocky said:


> Acid Mist? No, no it...what the _fuck?_



Didn't you know that Rashomon completely nullifies all of Zabuza's abilities? Izaya-kun told me the other day.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 26, 2015)

Shanal said:


> No. Chiyo isn't even a kage.


No, but she is Kage level.



> Raikage , Mei, Part 2 Gaara >>>>>>>>>>> Drugged Jiraiya and Tsunade.


Tsunade > Raikage accoridng to Madara Uchiha so you go debate that with him. And that statement was made not even taking katsuyu and regeneration and chakra scalpels into account. And tell me what Mei or Raikage would do against Yomi f*cking Numa? Like i said, Sannin are a lot stronger than most would think.[/QUOTE]



> The fact that you said (maybe) there alone proves your biasness. Your sannin wanking is so hard it hurts, according to you Jiraiya w/o summoning and proper chakra control can beat Ei, based on no feats at all.


We have two forms of drugged Jiraiya and Rusty Tsunade.
Drugged Jiraiya who cant control chakra (yet still made a swamp capable of GG'ing Raikage)
Rusty Tsunade who turns into dust the minute her eyes see a drop of blood.

I'd say those two are High Jonin tier. The ones i was referring to are 

Drugged Jiraiya who was able to control chakra a little more (he couldnt pull of e.g. Sage Mode, but could summon Gamabunta, who Raikage doesnt have a chance of beating)
Rusty Tsunade who overcame her phobia and started embracing blood i.e. using blood on her thumb to summon Katsuyu (who again, laughs at anything the Raikage can dish out)\

Sannin Boss Summons > Raikage. Dont use the Hachibi argument because Raikage cutting off a f*cking horn when the Bijuu was starpped down doesnt translate to Raikage having a feasible counter to being sliced with Bunta's sword, being GG'd by Gamayu Endan (a Katon that made Gamabunta, a Bijuu-sized toad, look quite small) or Zesshi Nensan (which Raikage isnt dodging. People say Raikage is faster than Manda but think about it. Who would win a race from one side of a long field to the other side? Manda or Raikage? See what i mean. Manda can cover more distance while slithering slwoly, than Raikage can when he is running so no feats suggest he evades that Acid). 

I'm not wanking the Sannin. I'm choosing to take them for what they really are instead of wanking Raikage when Kishimoto told and showed us he is weaker than f*cking Tsunade.

Those two (Druuged Jiraiya and Rusty Tsunade after the drug started clearing and afyter the phobia was gone). are at he top of the Low Kage tier. Chiyo is in the middle of that tier or nearer to the bottom. Raikage is low Kage, mid at best. Tsunade is a high up Mid Kage scratching the bottom of High Kage, where Jiraiya and Orochimaru comfrotably sit right under Pain, who is right under Nagato who is right under Base Minato and Prime Hiruzen who are slightly under Tobirama. The tier above that is Top Kage tier where Hashirama and EMS Madara chilled.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Those two would be dead before they even realized what happened.


Youre so dumb. Kimimaro in base is faster and stronger than any form of Jugo. CS2 Kimi can kill the Raikage.



> A sand Tsunami? No, no it doesn't.


Yes it does. 



> Acid Mist? No, no it...what the _fuck?_


Why not. Prove acid mist > Rashomon using panel feats please.



Ghost said:


> Stop posting.


You stop posting.




> Didn't you know that Rashomon completely nullifies all of Zabuza's abilities? Izaya-kun told me the other day.



Lol no i didnt ghost-Kun


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Wait, I'm talking to Izaya. What the fuck am I doing?


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Did anyone actually come up with a kage that the Sound 5 can beat?



There really isn't many kages they can beat, even the weakest of the kages causally stomp the crap out of them. If you consider Chiyo, Hidan, Konan kage level then sure, but as it stands those guys are Asuma-level no more at least in my book.

War Arc Gaara could solo the Sound 5, Mei melts them with Lava, Tsunade basically tanks everything and rips their heads off, Oonoki disintegrates them and Raikage just pulverizes them.

The War Arc Gokage were the weakest overall collection of kages (as a 5 kage unit) in a while, Sound 5 can't even touch them, let alone beat any of the predecessors. These guys aren't kage levels by any stretch.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Izaya said:
			
		

> Kai why did you lock my thread





			
				Kai said:
			
		

> 5th thread you've made on the same characters in the past couple weeks; I actually would have merged your newest thread with one of your older ones but each and every one of them were locked.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 26, 2015)

This is the most active I've seen Izaya in quite some time, so does this confirm she's a school girl barely above 13? 

Rocky, too old for you?


----------



## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Without Kimimaro the sound 4 are useless.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> This is the most active I've seen Izaya in quite some time, so does this confirm she's a school girl barely above 13?



I don't think it's a chick, but the school-age part I believe.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Typical Jounins don't struggle with injured base Lee. :^)



 Databook suggests that his Taijutsu ability actually improved and even then, he didn't struggle, not in the very least. He was effortlessly evading the attacks and stated his fighting style was very linear as opposed to Drunken Lee where he was actually forced to parry his attacks and struggled doing so.

 He casually evaded Base Lee and that makes sense considering he casually demolished KN0 Naruto who used his best jutsu and is superior to Neji who defeats Lee consistently.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Did anyone actually come up with a kage that the Sound 5 can beat?



Not many Kage can avoid Kidomaru sniping them through their blindspots if they're focused on another ninja. Or do you disagree?​


Vice said:


> Kimimaro is jonin level and they soundly lost to him with a 4 on 1 advantage and even had Tayuya's apparent game breaking genjutsu in their favor too. I ain't mad at nothing, they're chunins because they couldn't handle other chunins.



How can Kimimaro be "Jonin level" if the Sound 4 thought that 1-2 of them could beat "Jonin level" Kakashi, but all 4 lose to Kimimaro?

Or that Kabuto thought he could fight "Jonin level" Kakashi, but called Kimimaro Orochimaru's strongest, unbeatable servant?

Why would Kabuto say one "Jonin level" could make the difference in Orochimaru's attack on Konoha (with thousands of Jonin?)

The answer is clear and it's this: Kimimaro wasn't Jonin level. He was Kage level. Y'all are underestimating his opponents.

DB says Drunk Lee was too much for Gai. SRA Gaara was basically the 5th Kazekage at that point, as the 4th Kazekage was dead.

You all are being willfully ignorant, which is fine. But you're wrong.​


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Did anyone actually come up with a kage that the Sound 5 can beat?



 Base Jugo.

 After all, Base Jugo can defeat Orochimaru in CQC apparently and even reacted to V1 Bee's attack.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Kabuto was obviously wrong since they lost. To chunin.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> Kabuto was obviously wrong since they lost. To chunin.



They were all Genin rank except for Shikamaru, and none of the people that actually killed them were genin _or_ Chunin in level.

Kamatari is a Kage level summon. Butterfly Choji was faster and much stronger than Rusty Tsunade. SRA Neji had much better taijutsu than p1 Kabuto, and much better perception.

Drunk Lee was stated by the word of god to be too much for Gai. And SRA Gaara saved him, had bigger ninjutsu than Hiruzen, and was a few weeks away from being Kazekage.

So from where I'm standing, the Sound 5 _individually_ lost to people that were solid Jonin or low Kage level, and extremely well-suited match-ups at that. (Jyuken and web, Byakugan and sniping, etc.)​


----------



## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Choji - chunin 
Neji -  chunin 
Kankuro - chunin 
Temari -  chunin

The only one who didn't lose to a chunin was Kimimaro, who's the only one who's worth a shit.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> They were all Genin rank except for Shikamaru, and none of the people that actually killed them were genin _or_ Chunin in level.
> 
> *Kamatari is a Kage level summon*.* Butterfly Choji was faster* and much stronger than Rusty Tsunade. *SRA Neji had much better taijutsu than p1 Kabuto*, and much better perception.
> 
> *Drunk Lee was stated by the word of god to be too much for Gai*. *And SRA Gaara saved him, had bigger ninjutsu than Hiruzen*, and was a few weeks away from being Kazekage.​





You are approaching Izaya-levels of reasoning there, Strat. Better be careful.


----------



## Yoko (Nov 26, 2015)

Sure, they all lost to "Chunin," but each of those "Chunin" had techniques tailored to negate their abilities or ended up getting backup.  If someone other than Neji fought Kidomaru, what could they possibly do about arrows aimed at their blindspots? If Kiba and Shikimaru didn't get help, what would they have done?  

The Sound 4 are more than just the sum of their parts and I think that's the main issue why they're downplayed.  Individually, they're not all that, but imagine having to avoid Jirobo's punches and Sakon / Ukon while simultaneously dodging waves of spiders and Tayuya's flute monsters while also dodging arrows aimed at your blindspot and the imminent casting of sound Genjutsu.  In the right conditions, that can be a very hard fight.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> Choji - chunin
> Neji -  chunin
> Kankuro - chunin
> Temari -  chunin
> ...



 Again, that's a rather baseless claim and you haven't explained why these ninja are Chuunin level.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Butterfuly Choji would rape p1 Kabuto (elite Jonin.) 

SRA Neji would rape p1 Kabuto (elite Jonin.) 

Kamatari would rape p1 Kabuto (elite Jonin.)  

SRA Gaara would rape p1 Kabuto (elite Jonin.)  

I'd argue all of this in their own threads.



Alex Payne said:


> You are approaching Izaya-levels of reasoning there, Strat. Better be careful.



Why don't you pick a point and we'll discuss it in depth if you'd like.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> You are approaching Izaya-levels of reasoning there, Strat. Better be careful.



 That's actually not surprising. He shit-blitzed CS2 Jirobo and displayed physical strength that trashes what Tsunade actually specializes in.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 26, 2015)

Yoko said:


> Sure, they all lost to "Chunin," but each of those "Chunin" had techniques tailored to negate their abilities or ended up getting backup.  If someone other than Neji fought Kidomaru, what could they possibly do about arrows aimed at their blindspots? If Kiba and Shikimaru didn't get help, what would they have done?
> 
> The Sound 4 are more than just the sum of their parts and I think that's the main issue why they're downplayed.  Individually, they're not all that, but imagine having to avoid Jirobo's punches and Sakon / Ukon while simultaneously dodging waves of spiders and Tayuya's flute monsters while also dodging arrows aimed at your blindspot and the imminent casting of sound Genjutsu.  In the right conditions, that can be a very hard fight.



And the main reason I don't think highly about Sound-4-as-a-team because they barely won over 2 Special Jonins(specifically made tired by Kishimoto) and were stomped by Kimimaro. And before "but that's because Kimi is strong!" - he isn't. If you can't one-panel Base Weakened Sober Part 1 Lee and forced to admit that said iteration of Lee(weakest we saw fighting probably) is "good"... You aren't "strong". Can you imagine any known Kage in Kimi's position being stopped by Lee? Like seriously? P1 Lee appears, kicks a Kage, Kage then instantly praises Lee, Kage is forced to allow Naruto to escape(risking Sasuke not reaching Oro) and then our Kage actually trades blows with Lee. Scratch Kage. Can you imagine Asuma/Gai/Kakashi in Kimi's position? Actually putting an effort there to fight Lee? It's not Gates, it's not Drunk. It's fucking Base Lee who is weakened due to surgery to boot.
I can't.



Sadgoob said:


> Why don't you pick a point and we'll discuss it in depth if you'd like.


You are far too stubborn and I am far too impatient for this to work.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Part I power scale was odd at times, though. You've got Kakashi-level Kabuto catching a Rasengan from a heavily injured base Naruto. Then there was Zabuza stroking Haku repeatedly in the bridge fight.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 26, 2015)

Zabuza+Haku was very early and I have a theory that Kishi did plan for Haku to be relatively strong initially. He had Kakashi say that there were kids younger than Naruto but stronger than him(and we didn't get a single confirmed case outside Itachi afterwards). And he hyped Wave Arc KN0. He probably wanted to make that version Kyubi Naruto Jonin+ level. But quickly changed powerlevels after that arc. With Exams and all.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Butterfuly Choji would rape p1 Kakashi (elite Jonin.)
> 
> SRA Neji would rape p1 Kakashi (elite Jonin.)
> 
> ...



How about this? ^ 

You believe that?


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 26, 2015)

Gaara with time to grind is the only one challenging Kakashi there. And even then depending on location Kakashi might contest that with Suitons. 

Without prep Kakashi ends him with Raikiri. Like, Gaara got his shit torn apart by CE Sasuke an arc ago. Without a massive amount of sand he got nothing on Kakashi. Unless Biju Mode obviously.

Rest are plainly inferior to Kakashi. Choji can indeed one-shot but he ain't hitting Kakashi. Lol, Neji. Double lol at the weasel doing anything.


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## LostSelf (Nov 26, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Nothing suggests that Genma and Raido forced them to transform, Kidomaru stated that they couldn't take the risk of saving energy by using CS2, because in that case, they *might've lost.*



"_If we tried to conserve the enery, we might've been defeated_" sounds like they needed it..


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2015)

And the S4 were really arrogant.


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## StarWanderer (Nov 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The lowest of the lowest low Kage level ninja is Hidan.



Hidan, imao, is an elite Jonin level, not Kage level.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Hidan, imao, is an elite Jonin level, not Kage level.



 He was quite a bit above an Elite Jonin, so I would have to disagree here.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You've got Kakashi-level Kabuto catching a Rasengan from a heavily injured base Naruto.



Which is why I'm saying the whole "Jonin gap" is more illusion than reality after the CE arc. There's no effortless blitzes from any Jonin on any Chunin after that point. The speed gap is closed.

IMO weightless Lee can basically be taken as Jonin speed. He's not getting blitzed by Jonin. Anybody that can keep up with Lee can keep up with Jonin unless they're Kage level speedsters.

The Sound 4 aren't getting blitzed by weightless after they're in CS1 in my opinion. So they actually get judged on their abilities from my perspective, without the preconception of a rank speed blitz.​


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## Itachі (Nov 26, 2015)

I'd say that a Kage level is someone that's either versatile (Like Kakashi or Jiraiya) or has an extremely powerful ability, like Obito. I feel that Kage level opponents should be able to handle a variety of situations well.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Gai & Kakashi definitely blitz every single one of the SRA Genin (and Shikamaru). Neji & Lee may be exceptions because of their speed & taijutsu focused styles.

Kakashi & Gai blitz every single one of the Sound Four, because none of them are even close to Lee in speed, Curse Seal or no Curse Seal.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Gai & Kakashi definitely blitz every single one of the SRA Genin (and Shikamaru). Neji & Lee may be exceptions because of their speed & taijutsu focused styles.



Drunk Lee is _definitely_ an exception, as the databook entry says Gai can't keep up with him, and we know Kimimato with a 5 in taijutsu and 4.5 in speed was taking hits as well. It adds up.

Sasuke and Naruto are also exceptions, as Sasuke was speed focused like Lee and had the Sharingan as well. Naruto in KN0 at VotE was crazy fast. Butterfly Choji'd be right there too.

CS1 is basically compared to the 3-tomoe, so the Sound 4 all IMO had Jonin reflex stats in their boosted forms. None of the Sound 4 considered Kakashi their vast superior. Only Kimimaro & Orochimaru.

Gai and Kakashi are particularly fast Jonin though, in any case.​


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## Ersa (Nov 26, 2015)




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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Drunk Lee is definitely an exception, as the databook entry says Gai can't keep up with him, and we know Kimimato with a 5 in taijutsu and 4.5 in speed was taking hits as well. It adds up.
> 
> Sasuke and Naruto are also exceptions, as Sasuke was speed focused like Lee and had the Sharingan as well. Naruto in KN0 at VotE was crazy fast. Butterfly Choji'd be right there too. Kamatachi's a duh.​



What do any of those characters have to do with the Sound Four, though? I don't think (PI) Kakashi & Gai would outright speed-blitz those characters, but those characters are not the Sound Four. 

SSj2 Chōji two-paneled one of the Sound Four. Speed weasel off-paneled one of the Sound Four. Dunken-fist Lee kept up with the guy that would stomp all four of the Sound Four. 

So this:



> There's no effortless blitzes from any Jonin on any Chunin after that point. The speed gap is closed.



...is still wrong. Kakashi blitzes Shikamaru, and he blitzes any of the Sound Four, just like Chōji or Lee would.


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## Jad (Nov 26, 2015)

Kimimaro is not beating Base Gai at all let alone touching him. If Obito who nearly warped KCM Naruto a couple of times couldn't warp Gai in the skirmish they had, than Kimimaro is not injuring Gai with a deathly blow. With ALL of Gai's reflexes and speed from the manga and databook (so much references to his speed and reflexes) it's for me, inconceivable to believe he loses. No. Kimimaro did nothing in the manga that Gai would lose to in base.

Gai uses his mid-kamui warping reflexes and training in the Gates reflexes, of which allowed him to perceive time during his space bending speed, to dodge Kimimaro's attacks. Than using his strength that impressed even Obito, to wail on his opponents defences. Even at the point of the fight where its going nowhere (yea, no), Kiminaro goes down to stamina long before he threatens Gai.


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2015)

Being drunk doesn't make Lee any faster.


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## Jad (Nov 26, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Being drunk doesn't make Lee any faster.



I think it makes his reactions much quicker though. Lee responded to his moves way more quickly, and at one point he was moving so fast he caused after images to appear. Note: databook says Kimimaro's dancing technique causes after images.


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The lowest of the lowest low Kage level ninja is Hidan.



sad but true kishimoto didnt finish his character thats why he was so weak


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 26, 2015)

Kage level means you are able to fight other kage level ninja on equal grounds.


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Did anyone actually come up with a kage that the Sound 5 can beat?



they cant touch a kage level ninja. The lowest kage level ninja is hidan and he'd blitz them


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> SSj2 Chōji two-paneled one of the Sound Four.



And I'd bet on him doing it to plenty of Jonin too.



Rocky said:


> Speed weasel off-paneled one of the Sound Four.



See above.



Rocky said:


> Dunken-fist Lee kept up with the guy that would stomp all four of the Sound Four.



"Just what's with those drunken frenzies *even Guy can't handle?!*"

Plus Kimimaro IMO needs his CS for the S4. Not for Drunk Lee. So:

CS2 Kimimaro > CS Kimimaro > Kimimaro > Drunk Lee > Base Gai


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

That Databook doesn't say "base Gai." It says Gai. Gai can use gates. 

So either Drunk Lee > Gated Gai, or throw the Databook statement out.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Gai didn't use Gates. Lee knocked out base Gai.  

Or are we playing lawyer because you don't like that the manga and the databook and the databook stats all convey that Drunk Lee can take down base Gai and other taijutsu masters? 

All to keep the little Jonin speed gap thing and de-hype the Sound 5? Seems lame, but it will provide endless entertainment, because my case is solid. You're the guy arguing base Jiraiya > Itachi in 2009.​


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Why didn't Gai use gates? A little first or second gated knock-out tap isn't going to end Lee's life.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why didn't Gai use gates? A little first or second gated knock-out tap isn't going to end Lee's life.



Why didn't Gai use Gates when Konoha was being attacked and hundreds of Leaf ninja were being killed? Why didn't Gai use gates against Itachi in part one? 

Why didn't Gai use gates on Deidara? He would've died to the clone if not for Kakashi. Why did he wait until his team nearly drowned and he took a shot to the head to use it on Shoten Kisame?

The question is pointless. The fact is, he didn't. He stayed in base, couldn't handle Drunk Lee, and was knocked out before doing so. According to the databook and manga.​


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

I'm also still trying to figure out which kage the sound five actually beat.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Why didn't Gai use Gates when Konoha was being attacked and hundreds of Leaf ninja were being killed?



'Cause he was doing fine in base. 



Sadgoob said:


> Why didn't Gai use gates against Itachi in part one?



'Cause they left as soon as he got there.



Sadgoob said:


> Why didn't Gai use gates on Deidara?



'Cause he had just used them against Kisame, and they're ridiculous taxing. 



Sadgoob said:


> Why did he wait until his team nearly drowned and he took a shot to the head to use it on Shoten Kisame?



'Cause he wasn't doing fine in base anymore.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm also still trying to figure out which kage the sound five actually beat.



I'm still trying to figure out why you think every Kage can dodge sniping Kidomaru when a prepared Neji with 359 degrees of sight and a chakra bubble could _barely_ avoid a lethal blow.

But I guess Hiruzen does it just because, even though he's significantly slower and less perceptive and distracted. It must be fun not to think about BD matches and just rely on rank to decide.​


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Didn't Genma and Raidō do better than Neji against those arrows? Despite them not possessing the Byakugan, and the other members of the Sound Four being there? Interesting. 

What if I told you that Hiruzen kills Kidōmaru before Kidōmaru hides in a forest and starts sniping.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

> Didn't Genma and Raidō do better than Neji against those arrows?



I doubt Kidomaru even used those arrows on them. They went down too fast. In fact, it looks like they were basically beaten with shuriken. The ground wasn't destroyed from Jirobo, there were no webs, nothing but shuriken.

Or do we go so far as to literally ignore the images of the manga when analyzing it now? The Sound 4 went CS2, but they didn't seem to have much trouble thereafter, only suffering side effects of CS2.



> What if I told you that Hiruzen kills Kidōmaru before Kidōmaru hides in a forest and starts sniping



What if I told you that using 4 clones and 5 giant jutsu would likely kill Hiruzen. But I was addressing the S4 versus Kage scenario anyway, where Kidomaru likely has that opportunity due to his teammates.


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> I doubt Kidomaru even used those arrows on them. They went down too fast.



They all went into CS2.



Sadgoob said:


> What if I told you that would kill non-Edo Hiruzen.



Prove it. Considering what Itachi did with a 2.5 in stamina, I'm gonna go ahead and say it wouldn't. Yay stamina-inflation.


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## Jad (Nov 26, 2015)

Base Gai can't handle Drunken Lee? No doubt Lee is a MASTER in Drunken fist. But what does viz say about that line in the databook? Also the quote you posted has a question mark. Yet you've answered the question for us already based on Lee knocking out a drunk Gai (does viz say he was knocked out?) It was Gai's sake, he may have been less than 10% of his overall stat. Also databook sqys Gai's specialty is all Taijutsu. Really though new feats and statements outnumber that dated quote. Also who do you think stopped Lee in his drunken state...


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Awesome Lee/Gai Fan said:
			
		

> Also the quote you posted has a question mark. Yet you've answered the question for us already



It has a question mark followed by an exclamation mark, which is used when something is true, but surprising and unbelievable. _*I can't believe it's not butter!?*_ or _*they were both defeated?!*_



Rocky said:


> They all went into CS2.



So? That doesn't mean they used every ability. Did Sasuke use every ability he had when he went CS2 against Orochimaru? Or was just transforming and fucking shit up with CS2 powah enough?



Rocky said:


> Prove it. Considering what Itachi did with a 2.5 in stamina, I'm gonna go ahead and say it wouldn't. Yay stamina-inflation.



So do you agree with retroactively applying p2 inflation? If Hiruzen's Katon grew about 100x in size, then imagine Kimimaro's bone forest, Kidomaru's webs, Sakon's gates, etc. Or do you only do it for your Hiruzen agenda?


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

What I find most interesting about Pro-Sound Five arguments is that everybody picks Part I Hiruzen & Hemophobic Tsunade as the kage to compare them to. I wonder why that is?


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What I find most interesting about Pro-Sound Five arguments is that everybody picks Part I Hiruzen & Hemophobic Tsunade as the kage to compare them to. I wonder why that is?



Post-hemophobic, but still slow and sloppy Tsunade. 

They're the baseline for Kage level, because they're Kages. If I wanted to argue if so-and-so was Jonin level, I wouldn't pick War Kakashi as a baseline for comparison. He's way up there. 

I'd pick kid Kakashi before he got the Sharingan, because he was a Jonin level, because he was a Jonin. Would you wonder why I'm picking kid Kakashi if that were the case? I think it's obvious.​


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## Jad (Nov 26, 2015)

Damn you for playing to my vanity. Master Drunken fist Lee all the way!


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

If I wanted to argue that so & so was kage-level, I'd pick the Part II Summit Gokage for a measuring stick. Targeting weak Part I kage is fine, but nobody is thinking of Part I Hiruzen when they think of kage-level. Hiruzen is the laughingstock of the Battledome.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If I wanted to argue that so & so was kage-level, I'd pick the Part II Summit Gokage for a measuring stick.



I consider this to be wrong, because there have been much weaker Kage. It's like saying someone's not at the professional basketball-playing level because they're not as good as NBA stars.

When I'd be comparing that someone to the very worst player that made it into the NBA, who is still fucking awesome at basketball, just not in the NBA environment. Same deal goes here with ninja levels.​


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

One, the Lakers stink.

Two, I'm not saying the mentality is 100% technically correct. I'm just letting you know. Part I Hiruzen lasts about five seconds against Ōnoki or Raikage. He lasts about five seconds against BoPII Sasuke. He's a joke. 

If he is the floor for kage, then nearly every jōnin in Part II is kage-level by feats. So it'd be a "whatever" type of title for the Sound Five. Being kage-level wouldn't help them last more than a minute against some random mid-tier like Gengetsu.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> One, the Lakers stink.
> 
> Two, I'm not saying the mentality is 100% technically correct. I'm just letting you know. Part I Hiruzen lasts about five seconds against Ōnoki or Raikage. He lasts about five seconds against BoPII Sasuke. He's a joke.
> 
> If he is the floor for kage, then nearly every jōnin in Part II is kage-level by feats. So it'd be a "whatever" type of title for the Sound Five. Being kage-level wouldn't help them last more than a minute against some random mid-tier like Gengetsu.



That's what I'm saying, bro. What you think is Jonin level is Kage level. Low Kage is made up of Hiruzen, rusty Tsunade, Mifune, Sharingan-less Kakashi, and star Jonin the manga highlights.

What you think is Chunin level is Jonin level. Low Jonin are pre-Sharingan kid Kakashi, CE Neji, CE Lee, CE Sasuke, CE Gaara, KN0, and a good chunk of the young genius ninja that the manga follows. 

When going by "level" of rank, you go by the lowest denominator. The weakest player in the NBA is the cut-off to be worthy of being in the NBA. Not the stars that the manga camera focuses on.

Also, the Lakers are gonna make a comeback. Believe it.​


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## Rocky (Nov 26, 2015)

I had this huge post, then acidentally hit back, so in summary:

1.) I hear you.

2.) The problem is the rank system itself, which is why I got rid of the "kage" part of my tiers and just went with top-tier, high-tier, mid-tier, etc.

3.) I was thinking of making a tier list with numbers instead, but everyone knows what I mean when I say mid-tier, so I never did. I think I will though.


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## raizen28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Kage-level.
Kage-level to me is when someone reaches a level of  skill thats Over Jonin Level and Not Higher than Kage-level.
For Example
If you have Americas  Funniest Home Videos Season 1 on DVD
And then you get Americas  Funniest Home Videos Season 2 on HD DVD
By Logic you would automatically would want and have to get Americas Funniest Home Videos Season 1 on Blu-Ray


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## Ersa (Nov 27, 2015)

Rocky, I never said Kimimaro was on the same level as A or Onoki. I said he's either one of if not the strongest "Jounin" or bottom of the barrel Kage, hence my comparison to weak Kages like rusty Tsunade and Hiruzen.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 27, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Maybe you should actually read the fight. :^) Did you also conveniently miss the parts where base Kimi and Lee were clearly operating on same speed levels?



Again, your manga knowledge is none, Kimmimaro was killing Gaara and Lee tried to announce his arrival and attack him, Kimmimaro didn't give a shit and was hit then punched him away with a tail, again, without even looking.

CS2 > CS1 > Partial CS1 > Drunken Lee > Lee

What you just posted seems like a joke compared to an entire chapter of partial CS1 Kimmi toying with Rock Lee.



LostSelf said:


> "_If we tried to conserve the enery, we might've been defeated_" sounds like they needed it..



Nah, not really, they said "might've" defeated, it also implies that they might've not needed it. Remember they instantly went CS without any intel, they assumed the enemy was strong.

I find it soo funny how you people rely on feats and facts when talking about characters you like, however when it comes down to something you don't prefer, go with "but they lost to a chuunin like Temari who could clear out a forest, but chuunin nonetheles" 

I need a better powerscalin' of S4 tbh, this entire thing is pointless.

Oh and also, doesn't changes the fact that S4 displayed no injury at all and all of them only talked about tiredness they get from drawback from activating CS2. And Genma was shattin his pants over it. There's nothing which suggests that S4 didn't straight up "destroy" the Sp.Jounins once entered Second State.

Whether they needed it or not, their feats come when they enter CS state, and that's when they're considered High Sp.Jounin-Low Jounin tier. If we're only talking about Base S4, they're like mid-chuunins obviously.


----------



## Matty (Nov 27, 2015)

All I can say about S4 is that even Old Hiruzen should trash them. If he is trashing them, then I am not sure that they really are the elite force they are cracked up to be. They cannot beat anyone in the Akatsuki besides Hidan and that would be extreme dif with no intel... he most likely kills them though, honestly.

I think the fact they can't even compete with any Akatsuki member in a 4v1 shows they might not be that good.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 27, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> All I can say about S4 is that even Old Hiruzen should trash them. If he is trashing them, then I am not sure that they really are the elite force they are cracked up to be. They cannot beat anyone in the Akatsuki besides Hidan and that would be extreme dif with no intel... he most likely kills them though, honestly.
> 
> I think the fact they can't even compete with any Akatsuki member in a 4v1 shows they might not be that good.



Just because a kage tier trashed them it doesn't mean they're Chunin-tier. If one considers Sharingan Kakashi a high Jounin tier (no PS, only pre-skip) then S4 by all means should be High Sp.Jounin-Low Jounin individually here. They suck, I don't disagree, but not to extend people bash them for. As for Hidan, he has no defense against genjutsu or Sakon's CS2 cell fucking. W/ Intel they'd trash Hidan w/o Intel it'd still get down to genjutsu and possibly something to get Hidan immobile.

Remember, Shikamaru who was stated to be a candidate for Jounin easily, Chouji who was a high Chuunin tier at least, and Ino a chunin sensor and medical ninja along with an Elite Jounin in Asuma were being trashed by Hidan, if one can consider Asuma Elite Jounin here, then bashing S4 is biased


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## Matty (Nov 27, 2015)

Nah I am not saying they are all chunin. I personally look at it like this...

Sakon/Ukon and Kidomaru= Jonin

Tayuya= Low Jonin

Jirobo= High Chunin

They all can't take a kage out though, unless you add Kimimaro. So really he is the only one worth anything because even the 4 as a team can't take down any known Kage level opponents. Even with Kimimaro they still cannot beat any Akatsuki member except Hidan and maybe Konan from outlasting her.


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## Shanal (Nov 27, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Nah I am not saying they are all chunin. I personally look at it like this...
> 
> Sakon/Ukon and Kidomaru= Jonin
> 
> ...



I'd completely agree to this, exactly my thoughts.


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## Matty (Nov 27, 2015)

They are hard to gauge. I think the most logical answer would be they are not as weak as everyone is saying but also not as strong as everyone is saying. It's clear Kimi is the strongest with Sakon/Ukon next and Tayuya after. Jirobo was treated like the dumbass so he was obviously below them (besides brute strength)


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 27, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Post-hemophobic, but still slow and sloppy Tsunade.
> 
> They're the baseline for Kage level, because they're Kages. If I wanted to argue if so-and-so was Jonin level, I wouldn't pick War Kakashi as a baseline for comparison. He's way up there.
> 
> I'd pick kid Kakashi before he got the Sharingan, because he was a Jonin level, because he was a Jonin. Would you wonder why I'm picking kid Kakashi if that were the case? I think it's obvious.​



Exactly. Rusty Tsunade with phobia is a high Jonin but post hemophobic Tsunade is a low kage along with Old Hiruzen, Raikage, Mei, Part 1 Sealed Orochimaru, start of Part 2 Gaara, Chiyo etc. Thats the baseline. The middle of the tier is people like Kisame, Kakuzu, Sasori, Deidara, Part 2 Sealed Orochimaru, Full Power Tsunade, Base jiraiya, then the high Kage tier is Unsealed Orochimaru, Sage Mode Jiraiya, Nagato, Prime Hiruzen, Base Minato. 

But yes, the Sound 5 collectively should be able to take down any Low kage with mid-high difficulty.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Nov 27, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> That's what I'm saying, bro.
> 
> *What you think is Chunin level is Jonin level.* Low Jonin are pre-Sharingan kid Kakashi, CE Neji, CE Lee, CE Sasuke, CE Gaara, KN0, and a good chunk of the young genius ninja that the manga follows.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the bold statements.





Rocky said:


> If I wanted to argue that so & so was kage-level, I'd pick the Part II Summit Gokage for a measuring stick. Targeting weak Part I kage is fine, but nobody is thinking of Part I Hiruzen when they think of kage-level. *Hiruzen is the laughingstock of the Battledome.*



Youd be surprised at the people he could beat.

And Rusty Tsunade almost killed Kabuto, who was at the top of the Jonin tier with people like Hidan and Part 1 Kakashi. So Part 1 Kages arent 'weak'. No one in Konoha in Part 1 can beat post-hemophobia Rusty Tsunade or Drugged jiraiya or Sealed orochimaru


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 27, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Nah I am not saying they are all chunin. I personally look at it like this...
> 
> Sakon/Ukon and Kidomaru= Jonin
> 
> ...



Kimimaro is easily a Low kage. Hes better than Rusty Tsunade, Drugged jiraiya and Chiyo. He alone can take out a low kage. With the Sound 4 he could take out somoene at the bottom of Mid Kage, for example, Kakuzu, and with prep time and knowledge, they could take Sasori.

And Tayuya isnt  a low jonin. She can beat Kurenai, who is a mid-high jonin. Base Gai is on the same tier and has no Genjutsu defence. She wouldnt beat Asuma due to his speed but anyone else on that tier she can beat i.e. Sharingsan-less Kakashi.



matty1991 said:


> They are hard to gauge. I think the most logical answer would be they are not as weak as everyone is saying but also not as strong as everyone is saying. It's clear Kimi is the strongest with Sakon/Ukon next and Tayuya after. Jirobo was treated like the dumbass so he was obviously below them (besides brute strength)



Thanks for this post.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I had this huge post, then acidentally hit back, so in summary:



Yeah i hate when that happens


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## Shanal (Nov 27, 2015)

Izaya why posting in 5 different posts rather than edit?

Either way ,as for your last post to me earlier, I didn't read further, but if you're claiming Jiraiya can beat Ei with a Doton jutsu when Ei himself wears Raiton like clothing, it isn't possible.

Also, base Gai > base Asuma in terms of speed, proven by feats and DB stats.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I had this huge post, then acidentally hit back, so in summary:



Hit forward. Sometimes it works.



Rocky said:


> 1.) I hear you.



Best friends? 



Rocky said:


> 2.) The problem is the rank system itself, which is why I got rid of the "kage" part of my tiers and just went with top-tier, high-tier, mid-tier, etc.



I like saying "Kage level" and "Jonin level" at the appropriate level because it's IMO what schlub ninja would think and how reputations are made. It's just that the manga covers superstar geniuses because they're more interesting.

Like, Orochimaru is basically Kobe Bryant. "Only a Sannin can beat a Sannin." Jiraiya can be Lebron. They're widely considered the peak in the world. It's a low peak. The 3rd Kazekage is "the strongest evah" but lost to a 'Mid Kage' Sasori. 

The majority of the High Kage tier covers "shadow" players that were _way_ better than Kobe or Lebron, but whose ability was completely unknown to the public. Itachi, Nagato, Obito, Sage Kabuto, Pain, etc.

So that in itself is a little misleading to people who rightfully argue from a semantic viewpoint that Sasori should be High Kage if he destroyed the strongest Kazekage and then added his power to his own.

In terms of fame from the common people, Sasori is High Kage. But from our tiering system, he's Mid Kage, because High Kage are mostly made up of the secret ultra-elite. A few past famous GOATS (Hiraishiners) sneak in though.

So if I were to improve my tier system, I'd artificially inflate it even more than currently, with Low (Hidan), Mid (Mei), High (A) Kage, and then rename the current High Kage tier (Itachi) to "Shadow Elite" or something. 

Then get into Demigod (Hashirama) and God (Jubito) tiers. I feel this would be the best way to consolidate ranks with levels, because the BD has a _far_ higher opinion for the cut-off of Jonin or Kage than the manga.

And it is somewhat more than a nitpicky problem, because it triggers certain "short-cut" switches in their mind that makes them lazy when analyzing matches, which in turn makes debates more boring to read or participate in.

And brings the quality of the BD as a whole down.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 27, 2015)

Someone strong enough to be elected as the kage of a nation.


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## Shanal (Nov 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Someone strong enough to be elected as the kage of a nation.



Really?

#SharinganLessKakashi


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## Turrin (Nov 27, 2015)

There's no way to define Kage-level clearly in the manga, because Kishi fucked the power-scale. Originally pulling mid size elemental techniques w/o a source was Kage-level for instance. But due to power inflation now most notable Jonin can pull off those techniques. This really prevents us from forming a baseline on the weakest Kages. Because we can't really take Old-Hiruzen's and P1-Tsunade's performances as evidence, because they would perform much better if they fought post power-inflation (In-fact Hiruzen showed a bit of that when revived, in his usage of all 5 Elements, Shunshin matching Tobirama, and upgrade massive Shuriken KB); while others simply didn't get an extensive enough fight (or a fight at all) to judge.


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## Rocky (Nov 27, 2015)

I generally agree, Strat. One thing I will comment on is the Sannin thing. I think they were Retconned to be honest. They're no better than their kage peers.

Tsunade went with Raikage to stop Naruto & B from joining the war, but she sat there and did fuck all. Even when she said she'd _fight_ A to him from killing Naruto, he ignored her and nearly took Naruto's head off. You would have thought that he'd go "oh no Sannin I shouldn't fuck with her", but Raikage legit gave no fucks about her presence. 

We've also got Orochimaru & Jiraiya struggling with four-tailed Naruto who, with logical power-scaling, is not even close to the Nine-Tails Naruto that was fighting all of the kage in the war. You can also think about it from another perspective; The 3rd Raikage fought the Hachibi to a tie. Somebody of his caliber should be capable of one-paneling four-tailed Naruto. 

I think Kishimoto changed his mind regarding the power of the five kage going into the Summit & War arcs (because the kage were going to be heavily featured).


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## Ghost (Nov 27, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Again, your manga knowledge is none, Kimmimaro was killing Gaara and Lee tried to announce his arrival and attack him, Kimmimaro didn't give a shit and was hit then punched him away with a tail, again, without even looking.



You are actually ignoring the statement from Lee? The guy who just fought Kimimaro? Lee said that Kimimaro had slowed down after fully releasing the cursed seal.


> CS2 > CS1 > Partial CS1 > Drunken Lee > Lee


Not speed wise. 

Speed wise: Gated Lee > CS1 Kimimaro >= healthy base Lee > injured base Lee>= base Kimimaro > CS2 Kimimaro. Although I'm not sure if CS2 Kimi is only slower than CS1 Kimi or slower than base Kimi as well. 

And alcohol does not boost Lee's speed. In case you didn't know. 


> What you just posted seems like a joke compared to an entire chapter of partial CS1 Kimmi toying with Rock Lee.




What the fuck does this have to do with anything? You said that Kimimaro is at his fastest when using the second stage of Juin and I showed solid proof that this is not the case. I've also provided enough proof to back up my claim that base Kimimaro and injured base Lee are on the same level when it comes to speed.

Concession accepted.


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## Santoryu (Nov 27, 2015)

The author thinks Part 1 Hiruzen is "kage-level". 



> Really?
> 
> #SharinganLessKakashi


Technically he's right.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I generally agree, Strat. One thing I will comment on is the Sannin thing. I think they were Retconned to be honest. They're no better than their kage peers.



I'd agree that their superiority was toned down, but I still think they're meant to be seen as the top of that tier. Ei didn't fear Tsunade, because he's also High Kage (leader of the Gokage,) plus he's kind of a stubborn hothead. I'm pretty sure he'd DGAF solo-charge Madara if the conversation took him there.​


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## Matty (Nov 27, 2015)

Yea I think it's fair to say that Tsunade is a Mid Kage and Jiraiya and Oro are scraping the bottom of High Kage. Jiraiya because of SM and Oro because of ET. I personally don't consider ET to make him a god tier because it isn't actually him doing the fighting.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 27, 2015)

Well I'm saying they're top "High Kage" in my inflated system, which is the old Mid Kage. I'd break it down like this:

God level
Demigod level
Ascended level (Old High Kage) 
High Kage level (Old Mid Kage) because Sasori stomped strongest ever Kazekage
Mid Kage level (Old Low Kage) 
Low Kage level (Old Elite Jonin) because old Hiruzen is Kage cut-off
Jonnin level (Old Chunin) because pre-Sharingan kid Kakashi is Jonin cut-off
Chunin level (Old fodder) because Demon Brothers are Chunin cut-off

As you can see, the key debate is going to come in the new Jonin tier, as I believe that's where most readers have it wrong. During the later parts of the CE exam, the main geniuses like Lee, Sasuke, Neji, Naruto, and Gaara were all becoming solid Jonin levels and SRA hopped that gap. Sasuke's speed had improved astronomically, that was the Jonin "blitz gap." That's why p1 "Elite Jonin" Kabuto wasn't blitzing post-CE Naruto, and IMO would lose to SRA Neji. The Sound 4 are out of that blitz gap as well. I don't believe they'd be blitzed by other Jonin based on title alone, far from it. This is my new favorite argument in the Battledome, and one that will improve the entire BD if I can make it convincing.​


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## Vice (Nov 27, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Really?
> 
> #SharinganLessKakashi



Son of the White Fang. The Sharingan was holding him back.


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## Rocky (Nov 27, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> I'd agree that their superiority was toned down, but I still think they're meant to be seen as the top of that tier. Ei didn't fear Tsunade, because he's also High Kage (leader of the Gokage,) plus he's kind of a stubborn hothead. I'm pretty sure he'd DGAF solo-charge Madara if the conversation took him there.​



If we're splitting the kage level up into four tiers, I'd put the Sannin on the third, so I agree. I don't think they're Mei level. Ōnoki is a bit of an enigma; He did well against Madara, but was portrayed as a bit, er? "washed up" prior to that. Mū, Gengetsu, and AAA should go with the Sannin, though I'd say these three were portrayed _above_ the Sannin (not as a team, but individually). 

Minato, Itachi, and Obito should go in the tier above them. The Sages (in Sage Mode only) go there too, along with Pain & B. Mei & Kakuzu-type characters can go in the mid-kage tier, and the Hidans of the world go in the low-kage tier. There are some characters that sit on the cusp for me, though. For Hebi Sasuke & Deidara, I can't decide between mid & high.

Thinking about it, I think you make sense here. Kishimoto did a terrible job with the ninja ranks, but oh well, tough shit for us. If Iruka is a chūnin, then Exams Lee is _easily_ a jōnin, or perhaps a tokubetsu jōnin. I suppose I could see Kimimaro then breaching the first of the kage-tiers. 

My problem originally was that I was thinking of Raikage as like a normal kage, but then I realized he's like one of the strongest kages ever. Normal kages don't turn into a lightning bijū and run a Mangekyō gauntlet. Then there's the Tsuchikages with their Kekkei Tōta (which isn't "normal kage" stuff), and Tsunade with her Sannin hype (they weren't "normal kage" matieral).

My eyes may have been opened here.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 27, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> That's why p1 "Elite Jonin" Kabuto wasn't blitzing post-CE Naruto, and IMO would lose to SRA Neji.​


P1 "Elite Jonin" Kabuto laughed off _Part 2_ Naruto's attempt to attack him.



P1 "Elite Jonin" Kakashi told post-CE Chidori-Rasengan clash to fuck off. Without using Sharingan. 

P1 "Elite Jonin" Asuma stomped the living shit out of Sound Mooks group that was deemed superior to CE Naruto+CE Shikamaru. And those two at the very least are = SRA Neji and likely stronger. 

Shikamaru, Choji, Kiba and Lee - who performed reasonably well against Sound 5 members after *2.5 years* of training were considered _chunins_. 
Naruto had Base physical stats just below SRA speedsters(Sauce, Neji) and roughly on par with S4 members. Spent 2.5 years training under Legendary Ninja. Can't steal Bells from Kakashi even with decent support. Can't. Steal. Bells. 

To me Timeskip training and kids' strength progression absolutely destroys any Jonin/Kage argument about Sound 5. We saw how quickly kids were growing in Part 1. And Part 1 was like month or two tops. 2.5 years of training? And still lagging behind P1 Adults. With only Gaara and Sasuke decisively passing them. Jonin Neji was a fucking joke vs Shoten Kisame. Same with Lee. They were completely irrelevant in Base Gai vs Shoten Kisame fight. If those two were as strong at SRA as you claim after 2.5 years each would be a match for Shoten Kisame. And two together would be decisively stronger. Scrubs can't even catch armless beaten up Deidara. But 2.5 years ago Neji could totally challenge Kabuto who gave Godaime Hokage a decent fight. Right.


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## Shanal (Nov 27, 2015)

Ghost said:


> You are actually ignoring the statement from Lee? The guy who just fought Kimimaro? Lee said that Kimimaro had slowed down after fully releasing the cursed seal.



Well, I pretty much assumed that you'd realize the fact that Kimimaro didn't give a single dump when Lee tried to blitz him, and just shrugged him off and then Lee made that baseless statement over nothing, I mean, what Kimimaro even did to say he has slowed down? Just because a fodder tries to hit your skin and you know it won't hurt, you taking the hit doesn't mean you're slow.

Either way, the point is not that, the point is, Kimimaro who is at least much faster than Lee in base, and even faster in CS1 state (Considering that Lee, whose movements had become MUCH more unpredictable w/ sake, got destroyed once Kimimaro entered partial CS state), would destroy base Gai given the destructive ability and durability and speed in general.

CS2 being slower is still bull though, I'd believe Lee's words if they were based off of anything.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 27, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Really?
> 
> #SharinganLessKakashi



That was fanservice. And probably the only choice till Naruto matured enough to be come the Hokage.
But then I don't think  end of war Kakashi was so much different than Hiruzen. 
If Hiruzen made it to Hokage, then I wouldn't be surprised by Kakashi.


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## Shanal (Nov 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But then I don't think  end of war Kakashi was so much different than Hiruzen.
> If Hiruzen made it to Hokage, then I wouldn't be surprised by Kakashi.



While he has the brain, Kakashi isn't much in strength department now, some of K11 can rekt him at this point. Though due to his own brain, given the fact that he STILL is rather skilled, and someone who was one of major player in war, mah Kakashi deserves kage.


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## Rocky (Nov 27, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Shikamaru, Choji, Kiba and Lee - who performed reasonably well against Sound 5 members after *2.5 years* of training were considered _chunins_ [...] To me Timeskip training and kids' strength progression absolutely destroys any Jonin/Kage argument about Sound 5 [...] They were completely irrelevant in Base Gai vs Shoten Kisame fight.



The rookies being irrelevant in the Kisame fight was plot. 

Wave Naruto was relevant against Zabuza. Injured TRA Naruto was relevant against Kabuto. Karin was relevant against B. Dodai was relevant against Sandaime Raikage. Tobirama was relevant against Jesusbito. Sakura was relevant against Kaguya. 

There's enough evidence; Lee can be relevant against 30% Kisame. End of story. 

The Part II rookies were jōnin in combat, not chūnin. Make a Shippuden Lee vs Iruka thread. Hell, make an SRA Neji vs Meizu thread. I dare you.


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## Rocky (Nov 27, 2015)

Btw, Kakashi is irrelevant against Zabuza.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The rookies being irrelevant in the Kisame fight was plot.





Rocky said:


> Wave Naruto was relevant against Zabuza. Injured TRA Naruto was relevant against Kabuto. Karin was relevant against B. Dodai was relevant against Sandaime Raikage. Tobirama was relevant against Jesusbito. Sakura was relevant against Kaguya.





Rocky said:


> was plot.





Rocky said:


> Sakura was relevant against Kaguya.






You do realize that plot is this one main thing that affects everything, right?
And you are missing the main point. Kishimoto thinks that Postskip Neji/Lee aren't both _relevant_ and powerful enough to be used as a legit support when Gai is fighting Shoten Kisame. What does it tell us about relative relevance/strength of Neji/Lee of SRA arc? And what does it tell us about relative relevance/strength of people who SRA Neji/Lee fought with varying success? Not sure about you but it tells me enough about Sound 5 relative standing in the Verse.



Rocky said:


> Btw, Kakashi is irrelevant against Zabuza.



Is this the best you could answer me with? Quite discouraging.


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## Rocky (Nov 27, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kishimoto thinks that Postskip Neji/Lee aren't both relevant and powerful enough to be used as a legit support when Gai is fighting Shoten Kisame



Bullshit. 

"Kishimoto thinks" that fucking _Dodai_ can be pretty amazing support in a fight between a bijū-wrestling Raikage & War Naruto. 

But nah, the gap between the combined power of Team Gai & 30% Kisame is less than the gap between Sandaime Raikage & Dodai. 



Please never say "Kishimoto thinks" ever again unless you're sure I can't just pull up a thousand different examples that contradict what you think he thinks.


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## Ghost (Nov 27, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Well, I pretty much assumed that you'd realize the fact that Kimimaro didn't give a single dump when Lee tried to blitz him


Lee was already exhausted with a still broken leg.



> and just shrugged him off and then Lee made that baseless statement over nothing, I mean, what Kimimaro even did to say he has slowed down? Just because a fodder tries to hit your skin and you know it won't hurt, you taking the hit doesn't mean you're slow.


Kimimaro didn't say anything. Lee who was now exhausted (thus performing worse than at the beginning of the fight) and who just had fought against CS1 Kimimaro and base Kimi said that CS2 had slowed Kimimaro down. MOst likely due to the increase in size with that huge tail and all. CS2 Kimimaro being slower than CS1 or base Kimi is a fact. Nothing contradicts Lee's statement.


> Either way, the point is not that, the point is, Kimimaro who is at least much faster than Lee in base, and even faster in CS1 state


Injured base Lee and base Kimimaro are on the same level when it comes to speed. It was clear from their fight. CS1 Kimi is faster than injured base Lee. Can't tell if he is faster than healthy base Lee. CE Sasuke was able to reach healthy base Lee's level of speed. Although he couldn't maintain it for too long.

Guy >>>>>VotE Sasuke >>>> CE Sasuke


> CS2 being slower is still bull though, I'd believe Lee's words if they were based off of anything.


No it is not. Do you not see how much more mass CS2 Kimi has compared to his normal self? With that huge tail he is much heavier. Lee himself said that Kimimaro had slowed down and he is the best person to make that statement since he faced Kimi's previous forms just minutes ago.

Like goddamn. You're blatantly ignoring the manga.'

We're done, u lost.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 27, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Really?
> 
> #SharinganLessKakashi



 He quite honestly is Kage level.


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## Matty (Nov 27, 2015)

Obviously if you are a Kage you are a kage level opponent, I guess. But some may be lower than others. For example when Darui becomes Raikage how powerful is he really?

And let's stop with the Lee talk. He barely pressured Kimi in base. I mean BARELY did shit. for the most part he was just fucking up in the beginning until he got drunk and started fighting mediocre. Kimi did not seem like he was taking that fight seriously


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## Rocky (Nov 27, 2015)

I'm quite surprised that people can actually try and use "relevance" arguments after the War Arc happened.


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## Shanal (Nov 27, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Injured base Lee and base Kimimaro are on the same level when it comes to speed. It was clear from their fight. CS1 Kimi is faster than injured base Lee. Can't tell if he is faster than healthy base Lee. CE Sasuke was able to reach healthy base Lee's level of speed. Although he couldn't maintain it for too long.
> 
> Guy >>>>>VotE Sasuke >>>> CE Sasuke/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Shanal (Nov 27, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Obviously if you are a Kage you are a kage level opponent, I guess. But some may be lower than others. For example when Darui becomes Raikage how powerful is he really?
> 
> And let's stop with the Lee talk. He barely pressured Kimi in base. I mean BARELY did shit. for the most part he was just fucking up in the beginning until he got drunk and started fighting mediocre. Kimi did not seem like he was taking that fight seriously



This. Kimimaro doesn't give a shit.

Anyway, the entire argument of if you're kage, you're kage-tier is not my taste. That's why I prefer calling them low, mid and top-tier rather than genin, chuunin etc. Fodders have become kages. Some Jounins are stronger than some kages. Sharinganless Kakashi is nowhere near 90% of kages out there.



NarutoX28 said:


> He quite honestly is Kage level.



Nah, he's not, relied on sharingan too much, would be defeated by several K11, to be honest.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That was fanservice. And probably the only choice till Naruto matured enough to be come the Hokage.
> But then I don't think  end of war Kakashi was so much different than Hiruzen.
> If Hiruzen made it to Hokage, then I wouldn't be surprised by Kakashi.



I always thought Hiruzen was Kakashi's benchmark in some shape or form when I first started reading the manga (and honestly by the end of the manga, Team Kakashi > Team Hiruzen). At the end of the manga, he ended up with the ability to use all elements and we'd seen most of his arsenal and what he had faced or copied, so yeah. The one thing that probably will forever remain a secret is if he has access to all the jutsu's he's copied, if that's the case then yeah, I'd say he more than deserved it and how much his body changed post-six paths senjutsu Obito chakra power-up. It seems in the movies both Sasuke and Naruto (even after losing six paths senjutsu) were able to compete with beings on Kaguya's level, so I'm wondering it holds true for Kakashi as well.


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## Matty (Nov 27, 2015)

It probably does tbh. I don't see why Kishi would build him up like that just o make him the weakest kage of all time at the end. Would be a worse trolling than the Edos


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## Sadgoob (Nov 27, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> P1 "Elite Jonin" Kabuto laughed off _Part 2_ Naruto's attempt to attack him.



First, that's not p1 Kabuto, who likely improved over the three years just like everybody else. Secondly, deflecting a Naruto clone isn't a big deal, either way. Naruto's equals/inferiors do so all the time.​


Alex Payne said:


> P1 "Elite Jonin" Kakashi told post-CE Chidori-Rasengan clash to fuck off. Without using Sharingan.



Kakashi told a MS Sasuke and Post-Sage Naruto to fuck off too. Interception feats are bullshit in general, and a _huge_ reason people misunderstand the whole 'Jonin speed blitz' gap.​


Alex Payne said:


> P1 "Elite Jonin" Asuma stomped the living shit out of Sound Mooks group that was deemed superior to CE Naruto+CE Shikamaru.



I'm pretty sure if Naruto went SRA-KN0 he'd rape those mooks badly, just like Asuma. I don't consider those mooks on Weightless Lee's level, after all. CE Shikamaru still has the "Jonin speed gap."​


Alex Payne said:


> And those two at the very least are = SRA Neji and likely stronger.



I _seriously_ doubt it. CE Neji was punking base Naruto effortlessly, and Shikamaru's just as slow. SRA Neji had grown enormously from Hiashi's instructions. DB has him at 4.5 tai and 4 speed.

I know you dislike the DB, but it's the only way in this case to illustrate Neji's growth from the CE after Hiashi began tutoring him personally, as Kidomaru was his only opponent.​


Rocky said:


> The Part II rookies were jōnin in combat, not chūnin. Make a Shippuden Lee vs Iruka thread.



Precisely. Or Demon Brothers. At a minimum, they're much more comparable to kid Kakashi without the Sharingan. p1 Kabuto and Wave Kakashi were portrayed as the _peak_ of Jonin.

So saying kid pre-Sharingan Kakashi (or Sound 4, etc.) can't be Jonin level if Wave Kakashi's Jonin is like saying old Hiruzen can't be Kage level if A's Kage level. 

They're all the level, and worthy of the rank in the eyes of the commoners of the manga. There just needs to be some subdivision by the reader as there are stronger/weaker people within the rank.​


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## Rocky (Nov 27, 2015)

I just watched Boruto.

I never want to hear "x character is irrelevant in fight" arguments ever again.

Boruto would have failed the Exams without cheating. 

So he is a Genin.

Boruto was relevant against Momoshiki.

Checkmate.


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## Matty (Nov 27, 2015)

Konohamaru solos then


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## Ghost (Nov 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm quite surprised that people can actually try and use "relevance" arguments after the War Arc happened.



The amount of obvious inconsistencies was astonishing.


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## Rocky (Nov 27, 2015)

Consistently inconsistent?


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## Ghost (Nov 27, 2015)

Something like that yeah.


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## Jad (Nov 27, 2015)

Kimimaro is NOT FASTER than Gai.

here is a quote of mine from a passed thread on *Gai's reflexes* (on - top of his reflexes in the Databook being described *Lightning Fast*):



> I think some of Gai's reactions and reflexes are overlooked, I would like to show you some of them. On top of his fights in Taijtusu, these ones stand out I guess:
> 
> Here Gai was able to react from an attack from behind by Obito [1]
> Gai was able to notice a twitch under-water from Kisame's finger, so he is quite perceptive - reacting to it quickly [2]
> ...




*Base Gai speed *as I believe:



			
				Jad said:
			
		

> Let's look at Gai's base speed in comparison to Shrouded Naruto. Naruto was half the distance closer to Obito then Gai [7]. Not only that, but he started running before Gai did [8]. Gai had potentially only started running at this point [9]. Yet reached Obito when Naruto's real body caught up to Obito's [10].
> 
> The  also *exemplifies* his _quality_ of speed quite well:
> 
> ...



Now tell me Kishimoto meant for Gai to be on Kiminaro speed tier even with cursed seals....


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I just watched Boruto.
> 
> I never want to hear "x character is irrelevant in fight" arguments ever again.
> 
> ...


Yeah but that was a shit ton of plot though


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm quite surprised that people can actually try and use "relevance" arguments after the War Arc happened.



Exactly


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