# How long would Itachi last against The six paths of pain compared to Jiraiya?



## Transcendent Shinobi (Sep 21, 2014)

Location: Same place as Jiraiya vs Pain

Starting distance: same as Jiraiya vs pain

Intel: Same as Jiraiya had going into the fght

MinSet: Same as Jiraiya had

Restrictions: no koto and i highly doubt pain will use CT inside his own city

Oh and this can be "healthy" Itachi.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 21, 2014)

Itachi would have killed Animal Path before he could even summon the other paths, so Itachi wins under the same conditions Jiraiya had.


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## JuicyG (Sep 21, 2014)

Itachi would still lose to Pain without knowledge. And probably would have done similar in terms of time lasted.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 21, 2014)

It's probably the same thing that happens.  Itachi wil budget for three paths, and probably defeat them with a not insignificant drain on his chakra pool.  Then he'll be bum rushed by 6 paths including the ones he killed.  Even if he's not disabled by a surprise attack, which very well could happen, he's going to be pressed into Susano and MS, and he won't have the chakra capacity left to maintain it through the fight.

If either Jiraiya or Itachi know that they're fighting 6 people, they can possibly take all 6 Paths with high-extreme difficulty.  I still think the main reason Jiraiya lost is because he didn't know how many Pains he was facing, and lost an arm before Round 2 began.  Even then, he could have retreated.


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## Rocky (Sep 21, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If either Jiraiya or Itachi know that they're fighting 6 people, they can possibly take all 6 Paths with high-extreme difficulty.



Jiraiya  can't take all six paths straight up. He isn't anywhere close to being powerful enough. (Neither is Itachi imo, but I don't feel like getting flamed right now)

Consider this: Sage Naruto with five Kage-level toads summoned for him went up against an intent-to-capture Pain who was disadvantaged from the get-go and ended up impaled through all of his limbs...and Naruto's stronger than J-man.

Honestly, once Tendō regained his abilities, Naruto nearly lost to a BT-Preta Path combo. He sacrificed Sage Mode to remain in the fight, but then he lost to BT-Chakra rod.

Pain Arc Naruto lost to BT-Chakra rod.

Pain Arc Naruto lost to two paths.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 21, 2014)

He'd only last 3-4 minutes.

Because that's all he'd need.


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## JuicyG (Sep 21, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> He'd only last 3-4 minutes.
> 
> Because that's all he'd need.




Says the man with the Itachi avatar...you wouldnt happen to be a fan boy would you ? 

Please tell us how Itachi beats Pain more times than not without knowledge ?


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## Cognitios (Sep 21, 2014)

Juicy just called out strat, this outta be good.
OT
Strat hit the nail on the head, as usual


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## Rocky (Sep 21, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Says the man with the Itachi avatar...you wouldnt happen to be a fan boy would you ?
> 
> Please tell us how Itachi beats Pain more times than not without knowledge ?



ck

That's strat brah. He's THE Itachi fanboy. Imo he's > Prime Nikushimi.

You don't know what you're getting into.


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## JuicyG (Sep 21, 2014)

...Still waiting......


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## Ersa (Sep 21, 2014)

Edo Itachi would beat Pain, sick Itachi likely doesn't.


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## Rocky (Sep 21, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Edo Itachi would beat Pain.



Well that depends on knowledge, because Edo Itachi still can't do anything about Chibaku Tensei by his lonesome.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya  can't take all six paths straight up. He isn't anywhere close to being powerful enough. (Neither is Itachi imo, but I don't feel like getting flamed right now)
> 
> Consider this: Sage Naruto with five Kage-level toads summoned for him went up against an intent-to-capture Pain who was disadvantaged from the get-go and ended up impaled through all of his limbs...and Naruto's stronger than J-man.
> 
> ...



Jiraiya pulled off a toad escape from a 6 paths gang negging, with one arm, and still took out one of the Paths.

Watching the way he handled 3 of them, and the planning he used, I sort of think that he could have devised something to stand a chance all 6.  Even his frog song plan could have also, easily captured 3 more people in that genjutsu.  

Or if he'd known that there were 3 more paths, or more specifically a revival path, he would have dumped the 3 bodies in the toad so they couldn't be revived, and then it's 3 on Jiraiya again, and he can maybe win that.  Deva and Asura are tricky, but he's got the tools to beat them.  

I just see it as possible, not as assured, or more likely than not.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ck
> 
> That's strat brah. He's THE Itachi fanboy. Imo he's > Prime Nikushimi.
> 
> You don't know what you're getting into.



Prime Niku is the Rusty Tsunade of the Itachi Fandom's top three.  Strategos is Orochimaru w/ Zetsu cells and Edo Tensei, and just wants to watch the windmills spin.  Kom was Jiraiya, but he rarely went into sage mode, and also he is dead.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 21, 2014)

Under these conditions, Itachi would probably win. Pain's not gonna wipe out his own village, which means Itachi can take full advantage of the infrastructure to conceal himself and launch calculated ambushes on the paths from their blind spots (which we already know he is good at targeting). Izanami may also affect Nagato through the paths, and if that's the case, then Itachi has a convenient (albeit expensive) way to disable all six at once...if it looks like he's not gonna win without it.



Rocky said:


> Jiraiya  can't take all six paths straight up. He isn't anywhere close to being powerful enough. (Neither is Itachi imo, but I don't feel like getting flamed right now)



Fuck you.



Rocky said:


> ck
> 
> That's strat brah. He's THE Itachi fanboy. Imo he's > Prime Nikushimi.



Fuck you. x2



Rocky said:


> Well that depends on knowledge, because Edo Itachi still can't do anything about Chibaku Tensei by his lonesome.



With knowledge of Chibaku Tensei, it's possible Itachi could just avoid the area of effect completely.

He might also be able to destroy the core if he attacks it before any debris gets in the way, but that's impossible to prove one way or the other at this point.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 21, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Prime Niku is the Rusty Tsunade of the Itachi Fandom's top three.  Strategos is Orochimaru w/ Zetsu cells and Edo Tensei, and just wants to watch the windmills spin.  Kom was Jiraiya, but he rarely went into sage mode, and also he is dead.





You guys have gotten way too comfy around me.


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## Ersa (Sep 21, 2014)

SuperSaiyaman12 is Hanzo, because he schools them all.

The circle is complete.

Cog would be Sakura, the useless student of the Sannin


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 21, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Does this make me the Nagato?
> Next generation who killed the J-man of the last generation?



Munboy is Nagato in any and all scenarios.

You can be pre-skip Sakura.


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## kingcools (Sep 21, 2014)

infinite of course. Itachi would solo the paths in a split second.
itachi in jiraiya's scenario would have lolowned the summoning path making it impossible for nagato to summon the other paths

edit: alternative scenario: Itachi uses tsukuyomi on animal path and while torturing him realizes there is a puppeteer behind it. Then he goes to finish off nagato.
After that he orders big fries and diet coke. yankees won that day, so he celebrates


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## CatnipAvenger (Sep 21, 2014)

How Healthy Itachi wins...

Let's assume he doesn't amaterasu the animal path to begin the battle

Pain is weak to Genjutse for some reason and their vision is linked, so Itachi could Tsukuyome one and capture them all, creating a lifelike world. In that world he would learn their abilities.

From that he would know to kill the revival path 

first...

This battle then becomes essentially 1 vs 1 with sub-par supports


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## Ersa (Sep 21, 2014)

Turrin also said Onoki could stomp Pain Rikudo so I don't buy his Sakura being stronger then EMS Sasuke nonsense.


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## Invictus-Kun (Sep 21, 2014)

A little short of J man, J man lasted longer due to his SM and Toad Summons, without summons Itachi will use Susanoo which is a chakra eater.

So basically, Itachi will lose energy faster thab J Man.

J Man had sage mode to replenish his jutsu, but he still lost.

Pains strategy will be making Itachi tired and boom.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 21, 2014)

Itachi doesn't make it to Pain. Konan kills him.


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## Cognitios (Sep 21, 2014)

Itachi raises his fire nature chakra and konan slowly turns to ash while Itachi then genjutsus her to making her his sex slave to make her last few seconds of life and eternal bliss


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 21, 2014)

> Pain is weak to Genjutse for some reason and their vision is linked, so Itachi could Tsukuyome one and capture them all, creating a lifelike world. In that world he would learn their abilities.



If genjutsu captured the hive mind, Jiraiya's should have caught all 6 paths.  But you can argue visual genjutsu is different, I guess.



> Turrin also said Onoki could stomp Pain Rikudo so I don't buy his Sakura being stronger then EMS Sasuke nonsense.



If Preta isn't in front of the other paths, Onoki can disintegrate the other 5/6 with laz0rs.  I don't find it that far fetched to say he could win.  Stomp might be going a little far.


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## Kazekage94 (Sep 21, 2014)

He will last less than Jiraya since he's sick. He can't do shit either.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 21, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Itachi raises his fire nature chakra and konan slowly turns to ash while Itachi then genjutsus her to making her his sex slave to make her last few seconds of life and eternal bliss



Sweet feats and manga facts. He gets blown up or stabbed.


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## Cognitios (Sep 21, 2014)

I would argue that pein's eyes are linked, but not their bodies.
They have shown to have linked eyes as shown by the whole shared vision business.
The bodies however are just corpses that are run by chakra, however the eyes are all connected and that's been proven.
Depends if visual genjutsu uses the eye as a portal to teh brain or if it is affecting the eyes.


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## Cognitios (Sep 21, 2014)

> Sweet feats and manga facts. He gets blown up or stabbed.


Magic eyes see konan chakra infsued paper coming in and uses his knowledge and catlike refelxes to make an exploding bunshin and she surrounds him  then gets herself blown up while trying to blow him up.
Stabbing against healthy itachi with sharingan precog?
come on man, that's desperate


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## Rocky (Sep 21, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If Preta isn't in front of the other paths, Onoki can disintegrate the other 5/6 with laz0rs.  I don't find it that far fetched to say he could win.  Stomp might be going a little far.





Deva Path can oneshot with BT-Chakra Rod (if Sage Naruto couldn't do anything, I don't see Old Onoki fairing better), or any decently powerful Shinra Tensei.

Pain literally beats Onoki with just one body. Add Preta and it's a stomp.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 21, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Magic eyes see konan chakra infsued paper coming in and uses his knowledge and catlike refelxes to make an exploding bunshin and she surrounds him  then gets herself blown up while trying to blow him up.
> Stabbing against healthy itachi with sharingan precog?
> come on man, that's desperate



You do know the paper she makes doesn't hurt her if damaged?


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## Cognitios (Sep 21, 2014)

> You do know the paper she makes doesn't hurt her if damaged?


That paper she surrounded j-man with was herself made of paper.
if all of it blown to shreds and destroyed then she is too as that paper is her.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 21, 2014)

Jiraiya's katon didn't do anything. What makes you think an exploding bunshin does? It barely did anything to Kakashi. And she wasn't wrapped around the fodder, regular paper was, she was just there to stab him.


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## Cognitios (Sep 21, 2014)

> Jiraiya's katon didn't do anything. What makes you think an exploding bunshin does? It barely did anything to Kakashi. And she wasn't wrapped around the fodder, regular paper was, she was just there to stab him.


Imagine running from a bomb and then giving a bomb a hug
that's the difference. 
Her face fucking popped out of it, how tf you think that it's not her?


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## Invictus-Kun (Sep 21, 2014)

Pains connections to paths is just informative, what the paths see, pain wil see, but the nervous system of Pain is not connected.

So, 6 pains is acting like clones, genjutsu them and it wont affect Pain.

Itachi dies per see 10 minutes, while Jman dies for 20 minutes.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 21, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Imagine running from a bomb and then giving a bomb a hug
> that's the difference.
> *Her face fucking popped out of it*, how tf you think that it's not her?



Please show me where that occurred.


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## Cognitios (Sep 21, 2014)

> Please show me where that occurred.


was thinking the occasion in konoha my bad
either way i don't think having her bottom half of her body will maker her day any better


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## IchLiebe (Sep 21, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> was thinking the occasion in konoha my bad
> either way i don't think having her bottom half of her body will maker her day any better



Here body got hit by Jiraiya's katon head on and took 0 damage. Itachi's exploding bunshin left scuffs on Kakashi at damn near the same distance.


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## JuicyG (Sep 22, 2014)

I stand by my statement.

Itachi does roughly the same as Jiraiya, but possibly worse.

Probably Jiraiya >=Itachi  versus Pain because of summons and ma+pa. Itachi loses too much chakra doing the same thing Jiraiya did. Its all about the match ups

And this is coming from a neutral naruto series fan , I'm no fan boy of anyone...that shits for the queers


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## Rocky (Sep 22, 2014)

I appreciate that disclaimer at the end. Thank you for letting me know.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 22, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Magic eyes see konan chakra infsued paper coming in and uses his knowledge and catlike refelxes to make an exploding bunshin and she surrounds him  then gets herself blown up while trying to blow him up.
> Stabbing against healthy itachi with sharingan precog?
> come on man, that's desperate



Just like Obito's magic eyes saw that the ocean was made out of paper, right?  Riiiight?

He also couldn't tell there were explosive tags mixed with her paper until they whooshed by his face.  Nor did any Hyuuga notice the giant magic chakra paper tree outside Konoha, when all forces were looking for the real body.  

I don't know about Konan's paper being easily detectable with magic eyes.



Rocky said:


> Deva Path can oneshot with BT-Chakra Rod (if Sage Naruto couldn't do anything, I don't see Old Onoki fairing better), or any decently powerful Shinra Tensei.
> 
> Pain literally beats Onoki with just one body. Add Preta and it's a stomp.



Yeah, I don't buy a high kage getting BT+rod killed.  We have more uses indicating you can do things during BT than we do uses where it god stomps, so I tend to think it's less godly than not.  Oonoki would do something because Will of YOLO.

I'm not accusing you of this, but I'm reminded that another reason I don't like Pain is because he has a bunch of abilities, so arguments about him come down to listing stuff he can do until you hit something that works, and then supposing he does that.  "Pain does A."  No because reason.  "Pain does B."  No because reason.  "Pain does C."  Maybe but, "Chibaku Tensei."  Okay that might work.  "Chibaku Tensei works, Pain wins 10/10 times."  It's really boring.

This is all getting off topic, so....Itachi soloes.


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## CatnipAvenger (Sep 22, 2014)

If we are adding Konnan to the mix, then it would be safe to assume that someone will aid Itachi, as he very rarely traveled alone.


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## Cognitios (Sep 22, 2014)

> Just like Obito's magic eyes saw that the ocean was made out of paper, right? Riiiight?


I could see it was made of paper without magic eyes.


> He also couldn't tell there were explosive tags mixed with her paper until they whooshed by his face. Nor did any Hyuuga notice the giant magic chakra paper tree outside Konoha, when all forces were looking for the real body.


That wasn't her main body paper, her main body paper is laced with her own chakra, it allows her to control it without any prep and freely. Unlike the paper ocean and the giant ass tree.


> I don't know about Konan's paper being easily detectable with magic eyes.


Not all her paper, but her main body paper, which is laced in chakra. Probably


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 22, 2014)

All her paper is laced with chakra.  It's generated wit chakra.

You did not know that ocean was made of paper until she parted it and called it paper ocean.


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## Rocky (Sep 22, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Yeah, I don't buy a high kage getting BT+rod killed.  We have more uses indicating you can do things during BT than we do uses where it god stomps, so I tend to think it's less godly than not.  Oonoki would do something because Will of YOLO.



_Nobody_ has attacked Tendo/Nagato during Bansho Ten'in. 

Kakashi tried to stop himself from getting pulled it, but he ended up with a saw through his chest.

SM Naruto (who's > Onoki) got pulled in and put in a full nelson by Preta Path.

Fukasaku, a Kage-Level Sage Frog, literally died to BT -> Chakra Rod.

Base Naruto and pulled in and chokeslammed. Then impaled through all of his limbs.

KCM Naruto finally manged to break the patter by using a chakra arm from his chest, but Onoki cannot do that. I don't see why he's going to fair differently than Fukasaku, or Naruto, or Kakashi's Raikagebunshin.

I know the jutsu seems too casual to work, but in all honesty, Tendo blew up three Kage Level Toads with one Almighty Push. He's stronger than most think, I guess...


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## FlamingRain (Sep 22, 2014)

Kakashi's clone trying to stop itself means it's still possible to maneuver during the technique.

He could have chosen to attack. It wouldn't have been as smart as what he did, but that doesn't detract from the fact that he could have done it, and that's really all that needs to be known to make a case against it.

Ohnoki may not be able to manifest clawed pure Chakra arms but he can manifest Doton bodies, so there really is a reason he'd be different from Fukusaku.


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## Rocky (Sep 22, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> He could have chosen to attack. It wouldn't have been as smart as what he did, but that doesn't detract from the fact that he could have done it, and that's really all that needs to be known to make a case against it.



I don't see how attacking Pain and removing the threat isn't as intelligent as trying to hold on for dear life, leaving himself open. 



> Ohnoki may not be able to manifest clawed pure Chakra arms but he can manifest Doton bodies, so there really is a reason he'd be different from Fukusaku.



He won't have time.

Fukasaku has a tongue that can slice up giant summons. If he didn't have time to extend his tongue at Tendo and chop him in half, then I don't see how the slower Onoki is going to fair any better using slower techniques.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 22, 2014)

If ST scales with the mass of the target, like how gravity has a greater effect on bigger things IRL, then it makes sense that kunai and smoke bombs barely stop, while a super huge toad gets a super huge fling.

My thing about BT isn't that you won't get pulled, but that I think you can move your body during the pull.  By the way it's drawn, it's like the person has a rope tied to their chest, and they get yanked in Scorpion style.  Their arms and legs dangle.  You can use your muscled to move them if you're on guard.  Kakashi did that.  Deva upped the gravity to more than his grip strength could hold, and so his hand gave out.  But he suddenly didn't become unable to open and close his hand, or paralyzed.  Though it should be noted that Onoki can fly, so he can resist it even in mid-air, where most ninjas can't do anything.  At least until Deva cranks it up to 11, but that should give him enough time to do something.

Now the good showing of gravity came from Madara, when he suspended Sasuke helplessly in the air, and casually walked over to stab him with his own sword.  If Deva had that level of control, then I'd say he can rod poke most people to death.  

I disagree that the SM Naruto that fought Pain is > Onoki.  Naruto said he would die with Sasuke if they fought, and Onoki was going to casually disintegrate that Sasuke.  It seems like the intention was to show that Naruto was equal to Sasuke, while the whole Summit Arc was meant to show that Sasuke was inferior to the current kage.  Also that Sasuke was mad cray.  Current SM Naruto is a different beast.

Fukusaku and SM Naruto got pulled in and did nothing.

Base Naruto held on to Fukusaku.  Or something.  The frog was in his arms and he covered for him.  

Kakashi pulled out a chain and wrapped it around a pillar.

KCM Naruto attacked with rasengans.  

There's two instance of people flying rag doll style, and 3 of them not.  I favor the not-a-helpless-ragdoll interpretation.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't see how attacking Pain and removing the threat isn't as intelligent as trying to hold on for dear life, leaving himself open.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kakashi subbed with a RKB that would fly in and electrosplode on both Pains.  So he was already attacking.  Kakashi could have thrown shuriken, but Robot Pain is hearty, and it would have been a worse idea.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't see how attacking Pain and removing the threat isn't as intelligent as trying to hold on for dear life, leaving himself open.



You don't see how throwing that chain at Deva, with Asura there, wasn't the smartest thing to do?

Especially for the lightning-clone, the purpose of which is to electrocute in the moment of its destruction anyway?

Really?

Ninja tools > lightning bang?





> He won't have time.
> 
> Fukasaku has a tongue that can slice up giant summons. If he didn't have time to extend his tongue at Tendo and chop him in half



Because he was in the middle of preparing for a Gamarinshō duet and got interrupted.

There was still enough time for Senjutsu-drained base Naruto to attempt to run over and grab him. He may not have made it quite in time but considering how those golems have popped up fast enough to block explosives detonating right in front of people, I think there's enough time for Ohnoki to shield himself.


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## Rocky (Sep 22, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If ST scales with the mass of the target, like how gravity has a greater effect on bigger things IRL, then it makes sense that kunai and smoke bombs barely stop, while a super huge toad gets a super huge fling.



It doesn't, though. There was a time that Kakashi was hit with an ST and got flung back a few feet, got back up, and tried to stab Tendo in the face.

Then there was a time that Kakashi was hit with ST, and he was sent flying into a building with enough force to collapse it on top of him.



> Though it should be noted that Onoki can fly, so he can resist it even in mid-air, where most ninjas can't do anything.  At least until Deva cranks it up to 11, but that should give him enough time to do something.



If Onoki puts all of his effort into resisting BT, then he'd only meet the same fate as Kakashi's clone.

Still no time to really "do something."



> Now the good showing of gravity came from Madara, when he suspended Sasuke helplessly in the air, and casually walked over to stab him with his own sword.  If Deva had that level of control, then I'd say he can rod poke most people to death.



That was probably Limbo Hengoku. A clone was holding Sasuke up I think.



> I disagree that the SM Naruto that fought Pain is > Onoki.  Naruto said he would die with Sasuke if they fought, and Onoki was going to casually disintegrate that Sasuke.



I'm almost 100% certain that Naruto was speaking about Sasuke with his mastered MS, who is stronger than the one that fought Danzo, who would violate Onoki.

I also got a heavy Naruto > Tsunade vibe from the Pain Arc, which makes sense considering Naruto surpassing Jiraiya, her peer, upon mastering senjutsu was _heavily_ implied. Jiraiya and Tsunade are stronger than most of the five Kage, so...



> Base Naruto held on to Fukusaku.  Or something.  The frog was in his arms and he covered for him.
> 
> KCM Naruto attacked with rasengans.
> 
> There's two instance of people flying rag doll style, and 3 of them not.  I favor the not-a-helpless-ragdoll interpretation.



You're reaching.

Hard.

Base Naruto was holding on to Fukasaku when he was being pulled because Pain tossed the frog at him immediately prior to activating BT. If Pain Arc SM Naruto can't manage a counter attack, then Base Naruto certainly cannot.

KCM Naruto also requires no physical movement to use a Chakra arm, and his reflexes are *vastly* superior to Onoki's.


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## Rocky (Sep 22, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> You don't see how throwing that chain at Deva, with Asura there, wasn't the smartest thing to do?
> 
> Especially for the lightning-clone, the purpose of which is to electrocute in the moment of its destruction anyway?
> 
> ...





Kakashi's clone using _any_ of his 1000+ ninjutsu on Tendo, who is supposedly vulnerable when using Bansho Tenn'in, while letting itself ram into Shurado is _without a doubt _smarter than pulling out a chain and resisting when he _wants_ to be stabbed in order to grant an opening for the real Kakashi.



> Because he was in the middle of preparing for a Gamarinshō duet and got interrupted.



So? Does this prevent him from using his tongue? It isn't like he was going to be using genjutsu during BT, so he could have just _stopped_ preparing Frog Song (which takes no time) and attacked instead to save himself.

There's also Sage Naruto, who couldn't do anything to stop himself from being attracted and subdued by Preta Path. Kage Bunshin probably would have helped there, but ya know.

Speaking of Preta Path, it can just eat the Doton Golem, then stab Onoki with his own rod.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 22, 2014)

Actually if you're caught in the middle or preparations for doing something else, it's a lot harder to change what you're doing.  At least, I get that when I'm interupted by stuff while I'm focusing on other things.  I am not a 600 year old sage froggy though.

Preta can't absorb physical things.  At least, I don't think it could absorb a doton wall.


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## Rocky (Sep 22, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Actually if you're caught in the middle or preparations for doing something else, it's a lot harder to change what you're doing.  At least, I get that when I'm interupted by stuff while I'm focusing on other things.  I am not a 600 year old sage froggy though.



Though I'm sure you're no slouch, you don't have the reflexes of a frog that can fist fight a Perfect Sage. 

Furthermore, if this was actually the case, Tendo could use BT the moment he sees Onoki make a hand seal. BT would therefore _interrupt_ whatever Onoki is doing.  



> Preta can't absorb physical things.  At least, I don't think it could absorb a doton wall.



It absorbed J-man's oil IIRC.

Maybe you mean that Preta can't absorb solids, but I don't see why they would be an exception to the "absorb ninjutsu" rule just because their molecules are more condensed.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I also got a heavy Naruto > Tsunade vibe from the Pain Arc, which makes sense considering Naruto surpassing Jiraiya, her peer, upon mastering senjutsu was _heavily_ implied. Jiraiya and Tsunade are stronger than most of the five Kage, so...



I think it was equally heavily implied that he surpassed Minato? 



> Kakashi's clone using any of his 1000+ ninjutsu on Tendo.



What could he do to hit Deva that Asura standing between them couldn't divert?



> So? Does this prevent him from using his tongue? It isn't like he was going to be using genjutsu during BT, so he could have just stopped preparing Frog Song (which takes no time) and attacked instead to save himself.



It usually does take a moment to stop readying a tune and try to do something else, especially when it already strains your throat. So, I'm pretty sure this _(1)_ would be delayed as it seems mouth-intensive.



> There's also Sage Naruto, who couldn't do anything to stop himself from being attracted and subdued by Preta Path. Kage Bunshin probably would have helped there, but ya know.



I don't really think a Kage Bunshin would've helped nearly as much as a stone figure in front of you.



> Speaking of Preta Path, it can just eat the Doton Golem, then stab Onoki with his own rod.



I was talking only about getting the Fukusaku treatment.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 22, 2014)

The oil was made out of ninjutsu.  Like, Suiton got absorbed by Madara, but when the golom was going to smash Madara, he used Mokuton on it, instead of just sucking up the hand.  More arguably he could absorb golems made from Onoki's mouth spit, but not sourced ones using actual earth.  Which would apply to naturally sourced suitons as well, I guess.  I'm more of the opinion that he could suck the chakra out of the rocks, than eat the rock.  That just seems more natural to me.


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## Rocky (Sep 22, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I think it was equally heavily implied that he surpassed Minato?





I could maybe buy that Sage Naruto is stronger than Living Minato. Sage Naruto was pretty hax too, on top of his raw power. He just wouldn't beat Minato in five minutes, and a massive speed blitz would occur once he reverted to base.

I'm also okay with the belief that he didn't surpass Minato until after he mastered Shunshin against A and paralleled his father's speed, because there were heavy implications that he hadn't yet edged out Minato when he first activated KCM.

Fukasaku's statement should at least mean he's on their combat level, and I personally am taking Sage Naruto over Tsunade almost always, and I think all four are stronger than Onoki is in a _normal_ battle. 



> What could he do to hit Deva that Asura standing between them couldn't divert?



Well, with such an extensive jutsu library, once would think he would have something to strike Tendo with, who was standing in _plain view_, even if the clone didn't have the chakra for Kamui.



> It usually does take a moment to stop readying a tune and try to do something else, especially when it already strains your throat. So, I'm pretty sure this _(1)_ would be delayed as it seems throat-intensive.



We knew he had stopped preparing the song when he screamed during his one-way flight to Tendo's rod. 

I dunno. Instead of screaming, he should have just did something productive, but he didn't, and neither did SM Naruto, so I'm under the impression that they couldn't. 

..and I'm almost positive that Onoki, who doesn't have Perfect Sage reflexes, would do worse than they did.  



> I don't really think a Kage Bunshin would've helped nearly as much as a stone figure in front of you.



Naruto had already displayed the ability to ragdoll the Paths physically. A Kage Bunshin wouldn't have been under the effects of BT, and thus kicked Preta Path in the jaw, preventing the full nelson and subsequent chakra drain of the main body.



> I was talking only about getting the Fukusaku treatment.



Fair enough.


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## Rocky (Sep 22, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> More arguably he could absorb golems made from Onoki's mouth spit



This is really what it boils down to. Onoki's Doton Golems that he throws up should be no less vulnerable to Fūjutsu Kyūin then Jiraiya's thrown up oil was.

The only difference between the two is that one is a solid and once is a liquid, but I don't think that matters to Preta Path, because being solid was never stated or shown to be an exception.

It does seem unnatural; you're right about that. I still think Preta would do it though.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 22, 2014)

The question should be : "How long would Pain last against Itachi "


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## J★J♥ (Sep 22, 2014)

Itachi would get instantly shitstomped by absorber Pain.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 22, 2014)

I stand by my standing opinion that Itachi does worse then Jiaiya in the same situation. Simpy two different types of shinobi and skill sets which favor Jiraiya in this situation


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 22, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I stand by my standing opinion that Itachi does worse then Jiaiya in the same situation. Simpy two different types of shinobi and skill sets which favor Jiraiya in this situation



I agree that different types of shinobi with different skillsets will perform differently under the same circumstances. Like strong ones will wreck and weaker ones will get wrecked. For example :  Jiraiya is weak. Itachi is strong.  



SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Itachi would get instantly shitstomped by absorber Pain.



Animal realm solos


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## JuicyG (Sep 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> For example :  Itachi is weak. Jiraiya is strong.




Fixed. No thanks needed


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## Turrin (Sep 22, 2014)

Itachi would have a harder time against Animal-Realm because he doesn't have a way to find the Chameleon. 
Itachi would have a harder time against the Three Paths, because he doesn't have a powerful AOE technique that can down them all at once, like Frog-Song
Itachi would still get bum rushed by the remaining Paths, after believing he's won
Itachi would have a harder time against the Paths after being bum rushed as he doesn't have something like Toad Gourd Barrier Seal to hideout in
Itachi wouldn't be able to find Pain's secret, because that is something only Jiriaya due to his experiences could accomplish

So I see Itachi having a harder fight and not being able to unravel Pain's secret the way Jiriaya could. Granted I could see Kishimoto having Itachi defeat Animal, HG, and Human Paths like Jiriaya did, and maybe even pulling down more one like Jiriaya did, but it would just be tougher for Itachi. Though to me it really doesn't matter as the end result remains the same, nether can step to Pain w/o having a great deal of knowledge and both would loose while Pain would just casually replace any bodies they managed to put down for good. 

Where we'd probably see a difference is if both had knowledge. In that instance i'm not sure who would win between Itachi and Pain, however the manga tells us Jiriaya would definitely win, so Jiriaya has potentially a better performance in that situation than Itachi would.

Ultimately though I think Jiriaya and Itachi are the same "level", Jiriaya is just more well suited for the reasons I stated above to taking on Pain and a scenario where only Animal engages him first is more beneficial for him as he gets time to enter SM, while on the flip side I'd say this situation is worse for Itachi as it forces him to fight the paths Guantlet style which is not the best thing for someone with his chakra supplies and heavily taxing Jutsu to have to do. Itachi would probably perform better if he faced all 6 at once, than Jiriaya would


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Itachi would have a harder time against Animal-Realm because he doesn't have a way to find the Chameleon.
> Itachi would have a harder time against the Three Paths, because he doesn't have a powerful AOE technique that can down them all at once, like Frog-Song
> Itachi would still get bum rushed by the remaining Paths, after believing he's won
> Itachi would have a harder time against the Paths after being bum rushed as he doesn't have something like Toad Gourd Barrier Seal to hideout in
> ...



Itachi has a technique that  protects him from all angles(which btw can be activated faster than lightning can strike) so no, Pain ain't bum rushing shit. Good luck breaching Susano'o and ripping his arm off with Asura, Hell or Deva realm.

And I love how you line up Jiraiya's 'pros' over Itachi and yet you assume Itachi'll suffer from the same short comings of Jiraiya. That hypocrisy turrin. Never ceases to amaze me.

Itachi is smarter, more perceptive and faster than Jiraiya and has shown to be able to react to attacks coming outside of his vision time and time again.  Why don't you mention that in your post ? Oh wait you can't because then you'd have to admit to the fact that Itachi'd perform better than Jiraiya.



JuicyG said:


> Fixed. No thanks needed


You are very creative today.


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 23, 2014)

Healthy itachi, kills all paths barring deva, and sick itachi kills maybe 1 or 2 more paths then jiraiya.


1.Itach's main advantage is pain isn't nuking his own village 

2. pain won't be able to revive a body if it's sealed by totsuka

to say itachi wouldn't push pain further is silly to me as deva would have to be utilized against itachi or he would literally steam roll every path with susano


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## IchLiebe (Sep 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi has a technique that  protects him from all angles(which btw can be activated faster than lightning can strike) so no, Pain ain't bum rushing shit. Good luck breaching Susano'o and ripping his arm off with Asura, Hell or Deva realm.


Yet he has absolutely no knowledge here so he won't bring it up first thing, and will resort to genjutsu(Which I don't think will effect Nagato due to shared vision). Then you are also stipulating that he will be able to maintain Susanoo for the entirety of the onslaught which I don't think will be possible.



> And I love how you line up Jiraiya's 'pros' over Itachi and yet you assume Itachi'll suffer from the same short comings of Jiraiya. That hypocrisy turrin. Never ceases to amaze me.
> 
> Itachi is smarter, more perceptive and faster than Jiraiya and has shown to be able to react to attacks coming outside of his vision time and time again.  Why don't you mention that in your post ? Oh wait you can't because then you'd have to admit to the fact that Itachi'd perform better than Jiraiya.


Preta is untouchable, Asura is long range, and Animal path is long range. Itachi doesn't have the necessary arsenal to compete. He would have to use MS from the beginning of the fight. And he can't seal the paths he must destroy them, of which they can be brought back to life.

Itachi's chakra pool hurts him more than anything helps him.


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## iJutsu (Sep 23, 2014)

If Preta can absorb genjutsu and totsuka, then Pain might win, assuming he doesn't get shurikened to death from his blindspots.

Otherwise, there's not much Pain can do. Sending only 3 at a time would be a mistake. I doubt you can revive a body that got sealed.


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## JuicyG (Sep 23, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Healthy itachi, kills all paths barring deva, and sick itachi kills maybe 1 or 2 more paths then jiraiya.
> 
> 
> 1.Itach's main advantage is pain isn't nuking his own village
> ...




You gotta be kidding me

If he has know knowledge he will end up just like Jiraiya. Jman is more suited to fight pain than Itachi is sick or not


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yet he has absolutely no knowledge here so he won't bring it up first thing, and will resort to genjutsu(Which I don't think will effect Nagato due to shared vision).


It totally depends on how it goes. You can't say "he won't use this but use that." This is not meta battledome. Characters are IC and they may use anything depending on the circumstances. Itachi can also fight and sustain genjutsu simultaneously, using genjutsu might actually benefit him here, as he can reduce their numbers.

When Jiraiya is caught off guard, or is in no position to physically react, he is basically fucked. Itachi on the otherhand can activate Susano'o and protect himself. Thats what I was pointing out in the first place. I never said Itachi'd use Susano'o as his first means of offense. 



> Then you are also stipulating that he will be able to maintain Susanoo for the entirety of the onslaught which I don't think will be possible


.

No I am not. I am just saying that he'll use it when he is overwhelmed, or when he has no choice but to use Susano'o to defend himself.
Itachi can use it in short bursts like he used against Kabuto.



> Preta is untouchable,


Tell that to Naruto.



> Asura is long range,


Tell that to Kakashi and Tsunade.



> nd Animal path is long range.


Amaterasu GG.



> Itachi doesn't have the necessary arsenal to compete.


But he does.



> He would have to use MS from the beginning of the fight.


No he wouldn't.
Initial 3 paths(animal - preta - human) don't have the offensive capability to force Itachi to use MS, aside from cerebrus maybe. Which ends in a quick amaterasu sweep. Itachi can put down human and animal realm with Amaterasu for good measure once he whips it out.




> And he can't seal the paths he must destroy them, of which they can be brought back to life.


Amaterasu eradicates them and totsuka seals them. There is no coming back from that.
Also it seems like Pain's method of reviving bodies have a limit, because he never attempted to revive Asura for a second time when Naruto blew it into pieces.



> Itachi's chakra pool hurts him more than anything helps him.



What the fuck does that mean. But yeah, Itachi has a low chakra pool, thats news to noone.


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## Blaze Release (Sep 23, 2014)

When both itachi/nagato were edo tenseid and paired together, Itachi seemed to know quiet well who Nagato was. In fact there seemed to be some kind of friendship/respect between the two. Maybe the whole of Akatsuki knew Nagato (doubt it) even though he comes to the meetings usually as Tendo. Or Itachi who seems to randomly know alot, knows who was the akatsuki leader. But yh, he seemed to have a good idea who Nagato is.

Saying this because if Itachi is put in the same situation as Jiraiya facing the 3 paths, he actually has better knowledge than Jiraiya as to was is behind the 3 rinnegan users. He wouldn't waste his time fighting the paths and instead track Nagato, somebody he knows very well going by their interactions.

Since you have claimed Itachi has the same knowledge as Jiraiya, you have actually made it harder for Itachi.
Anyway from the brief feat we saw of Itachi, he managed to acknowledge the shared vision and countered it at a stupidly quick rate that he made Jiraiya/fukasaku/shima look like idiots. The shared vision is the paths first line of defense.

IC Itachi starts with genjutsu, however seeing 3 paths with the rinnegan should make him think twice about using genjutsu and may actually resort to the MS, Amaterasu most likely after countering the share vision again. Those paths obviously aren't quick enough to evade it. Unlike Jiraiya not having the ability to completely finish off the paths, Itachi does via totsuka.

People are forgetting the the reason Jiraiya had so much trouble was because:
1. He wanted to go into sm instead of trying to eliminate animal realm first as that bastard was spamming summonings
2. He was slow to note the shared vision an in fact it was fukasaku after retreating figured it all out an came out with a counter.

Do not see Itachi making those 2 mistakes. 1 maybe 2 summonings and Itachi should note that, this bastard needs to be eliminated as he is spamming summonings. 
Turrin claiming Itachi will not be able to see the lizard is wrong. The lizard should be seen with the sharingan as it has feats of seeing invisible things. That lizard to my knowledge doesn't go a step further with its invisibility ability to erase its chakra.

Secondly The shared vision was made to look like shit in front of itachi.

Countering shared vision (with the quickness) and swift amaterasu/totsuka should do the trick.


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## Dr. White (Sep 23, 2014)

If he goes in the same way Jiraiya did he wins High diff.
Konan - Genjutsu, Ama, or Totsuka (if you believe in that Logia business). Mid diff.
Animal + Preta + Human - Itachi wins mid - high diff. They are gonna force his MS, and without Deva/Asura they don't have a good way to occupy them not getting 1 shotted.

From there he fights the other 3 and wins high diff IMO.

Honestly Pein has little to no genjutsu resistance, Itachi is a horrible matchup especially since they all share the same chakra/vision.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 23, 2014)

Itachi definitely does better here. He can see Nagato’s blind spots, and he’s been shown to hit multiple Rin’negan targets with his Kunai (the chameleon and Naraka Path’s Jutsu). He can definitely take out Animal path and the other three paths. Jiraiya only managed to blind one out but if he blinded the others out he could have done the same without the need of Genjutsu. Not sure how he will fare against all 6 of them but I don’t see Deva going for the big guns like CST and CT in his own village. They’d probably resort to stabbing Itachi with their rods too but Itachi can defend himself with Susano’o.


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 23, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> You gotta be kidding me
> 
> If he has know knowledge he will end up just like Jiraiya. Jman is more suited to fight pain than Itachi is sick or not



I take it your not going to even attempt to refute my points and just repeat yours 


Where's your argument? i already made my points care to respond to my actual argument?


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## RedChidori (Sep 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The question should be : "How long would Pain last against Itachi "



Like a boss .


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## Jagger (Sep 24, 2014)

Itachi would likely lose. There's still a chance of him depending on you see it.

Not to mention that while Jiraiya's jutsu might more destructive than Itachi's, the latter posesses good tricks in his sleeve to escape from Pain's constant barrage of attacks and his linked vision. 

Izanami is another good option. However, this is a uphill battle from him since Pain has numbers and stamina. I'd say firepower, but Pain can't abuse it since he's still IC and wouldn't nuke his own village.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 24, 2014)

I actually think Itachi would take it with illusions and some usage of his Mangekyou Sharingan.
The thing is, I've actually been thinking about the same thing recently, and Itachi might be one of the best counters to Pein. Sure, Nagato mastered Yin Release and evidently showed great skill in the field, but Pein Rikudou is one of his techniques - not his actual body - so I don't think he'd be able to counter genjutsu similarly, unless he managed to activate/deactivate Paths before they're manhandled by Susano'o. There's also the fact that said vision is shared between them, so the experiences would probably be mutual. In addition, the fact that this location is Amegakure clearly solidifies the notion of Itachi winning.

I tend to place Itachi and Pein RIkudou on the same level, but Itachi just might be its worst match-up.


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

I've always placed Jiraiya and Itachi on the same level, and same tier. Nothing much changes from replacing Jman with Itachi, neither one of them succeed 10/10 times against pain


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Itachi would likely lose. There's still a chance of him depending on you see it.
> 
> Not to mention that while Jiraiya's jutsu might more destructive than Itachi's, the latter posesses good tricks in his sleeve to escape from Pain's constant barrage of attacks and his linked vision.
> 
> Izanami is another good option. However, this is a uphill battle from him since Pain has numbers and stamina. I'd say firepower, but Pain can't abuse it since he's still IC and wouldn't nuke his own village.



Counter the paths have to genjutsu? Itachi can legitimately just fuck over there number one means of relying on eachother with deceptive genjutsu (similar to the one he placed on Bee, or the one Sauce placed on Danzo). IMO it's one of the paths weak spots.

J-Man isn't even on Sick Itachi's level. Itachi is much better in base, with Jiraiya's only advantages being summons (which if you grant Itachi his crow is negated). Furthermore Itachi can bring out his trumps on a dime all of which are OHKO's to 90% of the verse, whilst Jiraiya has to really on his toads and deceptive ability to get into Sage Mode.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Sep 24, 2014)

All you people saying Itachi will win LOL.

He is simply outclassed and outgunned here just like Jiraiya. I thought this thread was about how long  he could last and maybe how many paths he can take out not if he can defeat Pain because with no intel he is not winning.

And lastly for the people saying Itachi's Genjutsu = a win doesn't make any sense. The only reason Jiraiya got that frog song to work is because Nagato was certain Jiraiya didn't have any genjutsu because in all their time training together he never showed to have a genjutsu power.

Itachi is a different story. Nagato knows all to well that Itachi is a master of deception and he can easily counter it with spamming summons and staying inside the chameleon and then spamming asura paths abilities causing massive aoe damage and if itachi wants to turtle in his susanoo so what it wont hold forever and Pain has all day. If he has enough chakra to pretty much nuke the hidden leaf im sure he can spam asura path for hours at a distance itachi couldn't genjutsu him.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> > He is simply outclassed and outgunned here just like Jiraiya. I thought this thread was about how long  he could last and maybe how many paths he can take out not if he can defeat Pain because with no intel he is not winning.
> 
> 
> How is he outgunned? He doesn't even face major trouble until he reaches Deva Path, and I don't see him being as lax as Jiraiya was after killing 3. Just because Jiraiya had trouble with intel doesn't mean Itachi will face similar troubles. Itachi is much more perceptive, intelligent, and strategic than Jiraiya boy, and as I mentioned Itachi can pull out his trumps from the get.
> ...


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

LOL @ Dr. White and his Itachi fanboyism...smh

The only reason people like him and others say Itachi can not only last longer than Jiraiya, but also win is because they worship the guy. No debating can be done with people who are particularly bias. End of story Itachi loses.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> LOL @ Dr. White and his Itachi fanboyism...smh
> 
> The only reason people like him and others say Itachi can not only last longer than Jiraiya, but also win is because they worship the guy. No debating can be done with people who are particularly bias. End of story Itachi loses.



Nice argument, I understand you can't really cohesively rebutt my points, but it's okay; cry lightly.


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Nice argument, I understand you can't really cohesively rebutt my points, but it's okay; cry lightly.



Fuck you whatcha guna do about it ? Not shit...thought so.


Itachi loses GG


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Fuck you whatcha guna do about it ? Not shit...thought so.
> 
> 
> Itachi loses GG



I'm glad you agree you can't logically rebutt my points. I think you should focus on dealing with your anger.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Transcendent Shinobi said:
> 
> 
> > How is he outgunned? He doesn't even face major trouble until he reaches Deva Path, and I don't see him being as lax as Jiraiya was after killing 3. Just because Jiraiya had trouble with intel doesn't mean Itachi will face similar troubles. Itachi is much more perceptive, intelligent, and strategic than Jiraiya boy, and as I mentioned Itachi can pull out his trumps from the get.
> ...


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Sep 24, 2014)

What Dr. White doesn't understand is it isn't a matter of Pain beating Itachi its HOW Pain is going to kill Itachi.

He has so many weapons compared to Itachi it isn't funny. Itachi's "Intelligence" and cheap tricks won't save him against the living god of shinobi lol.

If Pain wanted to he could one shot Itachi... like Gedo soul dragon for example?


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## Legendary Itachi (Sep 24, 2014)

All I know is Itachi definitely has more tricks under his sleeves to ensure he can retreat safely without losing a hand, assumed he loses. 

Susanoo gives Itachi far better chance to collect intel when Pain's big guns are restricted in Amegakure. Unlike poor Jiraiya, Susanoo can protect Itachi from Asura's ambush and chakra rods.


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I blow Itachi every day. Im on my knees sucking on his uchiha nuts from dusk till dawn...no one can beat him




SMH.

Just stop it man


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 24, 2014)

pain not being able to revive a body after being sealed by totsuka is itachi's biggest advantage.


the fact that he deduced nagato's weaknesses alot quicker then jiraiya also works in favor of itachi.



i really don't see how someone can think he won't do better when he will be able to seal bodies and stop them from reviving unlike jiraiya


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Sep 24, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> *All I know is Itachi definitely has more tricks under his sleeves to ensure he can retreat safely without losing a hand*, assumed he loses.
> 
> Susanoo gives Itachi far better chance to collect intel when Pain's big guns are restricted in Amegakure. Unlike poor Jiraiya, Susanoo can protect Itachi from Asura's ambush and chakra rods.



Besides Susanoo like what?


And the only big gun that is restricted here is CT. If Itachi wants to go ham and start spamming Amatarasu and Susanoo whats stopping Pain from destroying the building? Sure he isn't going to use CT but during Pains fight with Jiraiya I never saw any civilians nearby. I thought they were all told by Pain and Konan to stay away from their hideout if you will.


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 24, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Besides Susanoo like what?
> 
> 
> And the only big gun that is restricted here is CT. If Itachi wants to go ham and start spamming Amatarasu and Susanoo whats stopping Pain from destroying the building? Sure he isn't going to use CT but during Pains fight with Jiraiya I never saw any civilians nearby. I thought they were all told by Pain and Konan to stay away from their hideout if you will.




if pain starts destroying buildings then that means clearly itachi pushed him harder then jiraiya


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

If Itachi starts to spam Ama and Susanoo he will lose even faster than Jiraiya. No intel means Ama gets absorbed first time or two. Genjutsu will be tried and failed as well. Itachi will exhaust himself faster than Jman thus losing quicker.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> If Itachi starts to spam Ama and Susanoo he will lose even faster than Jiraiya. No intel means Ama gets absorbed first time or two. Genjutsu will be tried and failed as well. Itachi will exhaust himself faster than Jman thus losing quicker.



-Itachi can chakra control how much Susano and Amaterasu he summons. If preta even tries to absorb ama off another path (who will begin searing immediately) he opens himself up to Susano blitz, Itachi could also just send a katon or clone that way so Preta doesn't have time to do both. 

Itachi's will exhaust himself but OHKO the paths, especially the first group. deva, Asura, and Naraka are the only team who can possibly beat him in this scenario because Deva and Asura have a chance at stalling him while Naraka revives them, but even that is iffy because Itachi has Totsuka.

Great argument for genjutsu failing. More like Tsukuyomi GG, even to Nagato back at base.


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Itachi can chakra control how much Susano and Amaterasu he summons. If preta even tries to absorb ama off another path (who will begin searing immediately) he opens himself up to Susano blitz, Itachi could also just send a katon or clone that way so Preta doesn't have time to do both.
> 
> Itachi's will exhaust himself but OHKO the paths, especially the first group. deva, Asura, and Naraka are the only team who can possibly beat him in this scenario because Deva and Asura have a chance at stalling him while Naraka revives them, but even that is iffy because Itachi has Totsuka.
> 
> Great argument for genjutsu failing. More like Tsukuyomi GG, even to Nagato back at base.




Only reason Frog Song worked is because Pains have shared vision not shared hearing, or at least nothing indicates such. Visual genjutsu will fail. 

This fight can play out a number of ways, but unfortunately for you Itachi has far less ways to win than Pain. I can sit here and re-draw Jmans fight with Pain and come up with ways he could have won myself


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Only reason Frog Song worked is because Pains have shared vision not shared hearing, or at least nothing indicates such. Visual genjutsu will fail.


What lol  This argument doesn't make sense and is by no means sound.
-Frog Song worked because it was a powerful genjutsu. The only reason it didn't affect all of the pains is because you need to hear the song to be trapped. So the only reason they all weren't entrapped by the stimuli of frog song is because half of them didn't hear it.

Anyway your argument is because sound genjutsu trapped 3, visual genjutsu will fail? How does that logically follow? What did we learn from frog song being successfully used on the Paths, that indicates they are immune to visual genjutsu? You're just making shit up lol.




> This fight can play out a number of ways, but unfortunately for you Itachi has far less ways to win than Pain. I can sit here and re-draw Jmans fight with Pain and come up with ways he could have won myself


Lol right. How well did Jiraiya deal with Cerberus? How much difficulty did it take to get a shred of info on the paths? How long does J-Man have to stay still to reach his trump? Who is reliant on Ma and Pa to maintain their trump Modo?

Itachi has canonically saw through the Pein jutsu network and countered accordingly like a boss. Has genjutsu to throw off their vision (tsukuyomi potentially ending them all), amaterasu to one shot any clone who isn't Preta, or Deva in some instances, and Susano to clean up/ maintain a balance of offense and defense.

Then we go to things like speed/reactions where Itachi is just plain superior to them, and finally intangibles like intelligence and insight obviously go to Itachi.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 24, 2014)

Actually JuicyG has a point. Sound Genjutsu and visual Genjutsu are total different things. How can you not see that? Sound and sight are *two different senses*, the Pain bodies got caught because they heard the song, not because they visually saw the wave lines which were used to demonstrate the song.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Actually JuicyG has a point. Sound Genjutsu and visual Genjutsu are total different things. How can you not see that? Sound and sight are *two different senses*, the Pain bodies got caught because they heard the song, not because they visually saw the wave lines which were used to demonstrate the song.



Let me break it down for you. Genjutsu works by insterting your chakra into the opponent via stimuli in order to control some aspect of their mental state. We good so far? This can be done in a multitude of ways (Sound, Light, Eye contact, Mist, etc) , but they are all doing the same thing, and that is affecting the targets Nervous system. So as long as the Pein bodies see his stimuli they are vulnerable. 

So the fact that Pein bodies canonically got caught is positive evidence towards them not being immune to genjutsu and in no way supports the notion that visual genjutsu wouldn't work. There is no casual link that connects them getting caught in a sound genjutsu to them being immune to Visual genjutsu. That's why his argument was trash.

Look at it like this.
-Pein Bodies got caught in sound genjutsu
-Sound genjutsu is employed differently than visual jutsu.
Therefore
+ Visual genjutsu won't work on the paths.

You conclusion doesn't follow.

To prove the means to genjutsu don't really matter, take for instance the fact that Itachi and Sasuke used Visual genjutsu to free themselves from sage enhanced sound genjutsu. Because as long as you can manipulate the mind via stmuli, to end goal is the same.


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

So basically any decent genjutsu user > Pain


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> So basically any decent genjutsu user > Pain



Strawman fallacy?

I said genjutsu would help Itachi deceive their vision helping him take them down without them countering. Itachi has way more physically and moveset wise than "any decent genjutsu user", like Tsukuyomi for instance. Itachi is top tier in genjutsu and has MS hax /intelligence feats which allow him to perform on his level.

You are trash at debating bruhhh


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Strawman fallacy?
> 
> I said genjutsu would help Itachi deceive their vision helping him take them down without them countering. Itachi has way more physically and moveset wise than "any decent genjutsu user", like Tsukuyomi for instance. Itachi is top tier in genjutsu and has MS hax /intelligence feats which allow him to perform on his level.
> 
> You are trash at debating bruhhh




I could provide the strongest points in the world, we all know your bias for Itachi. Your and others can not be debated against when its about Itachi...

too you

Itachi > Everyone else



Itachi would lose more times then not, he'd be overwhelmed and drained eventually. Animal path summonings are gonna waste a shit ton of Itachi chakra since he'll need to waste quite a bit trying to take them out. Asura path missiles are gonna force Itachi to constantly use Susanoo to defend himself which is gonna be a constant drain as well. Preta path can absorb the majority of Itachi's ranged jutsu without to many problems to be a great defender and Deva path packing CT,ST, and CST is gonna screw over Itachi if he gets close(though CT is gonna screw him over even if he isn't close). Ect ect ect. you get the point by now.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Let me break it down for you. Genjutsu works by insterting your chakra into the opponent via stimuli in order to control some aspect of their mental state. We good so far? This can be done in a multitude of ways (Sound, Light, Eye contact, Mist, etc) , but they are all doing the same thing, and that is affecting the targets Nervous system. So as long as the Pein bodies see his stimuli they are vulnerable.
> 
> So the fact that Pein bodies canonically got caught is positive evidence towards them not being immune to genjutsu and in no way supports the notion that visual genjutsu wouldn't work. There is no casual link that connects them getting caught in a sound genjutsu to them being immune to Visual genjutsu. That's why his argument was trash.
> 
> ...



Difference is the way the Genjutsu was implemented. Why do you think Itachi goes around and saying to people to not look in his eyes? Because his Genjutsu in visual based. Sound Genjutsu effects your ear drums, this doesn’t mean visual Genjutsu can catch you. Sound and sight are two different senses, I don’t think you even know what the 5 human senses are because you seem to think they are the same thing. If a person is blind, do you think they are deaf as well? Just because you get effected through one sense doesn’t automatically qualify you into being effected by another sense.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I could provide the strongest points in the world, we all know your bias for Itachi. Your and others can not be debated against when its about Itachi...
> 
> too you
> 
> Itachi > Everyone else


Ad Hominem Fallacy. 

I have many a times given Itachi's opponents the win, or called a match to close to call. I am a big proponent of Minato(no kyuubi), Tobirama, and Itachi pretty much all having the same odds of beating eachother. 

I'm just not gonna back down to the overwhelming Uzumaki/Namikaze wank here because manga facts are facts. Itachi is much stronger than Jiraiya, and put in the same position he would perform much better.





> Itachi would lose more times then not, he'd be overwhelmed and drained eventually.


How so? As long as he is shrewed with his MS use like he was as an edo, he'll be fine. His 3 tomoe genjutsu is dangerous enough as it is, and he can pressure them in CqC with Fire Flow, clone game, and MS.



> Animal path summonings are gonna waste a shit ton of Itachi chakra since he'll need to waste quite a bit trying to take them out.


Nope all Itachi has to do is use chakra control to spurt little amounts of Amaterasu on each summon like he did vs Cerberus and the Bird/Nagato, this is all assuming he doesn't cap Animal path with amaterasu after he finds out her powers.



> Asura path missiles are gonna force Itachi to constantly use Susanoo to defend himself which is gonna be a constant drain as well.


Itachi uses Ribcage to do so, and has no problems using it for offense/defense. Itachi is fast enough to dodge the missiles, smart enough to run towards the paths if he is targeted, and simply can just Ama him before he becomes an issue.



> Preta path can absorb the majority of Itachi's ranged jutsu without to many problems to be a great defender


Yep that is when Itachi uses LOS blockers, and clones to get in close and end Preta with a genjutsu, or stab him with fire flow. Itachi has a notable advantage in Jutsu execution here being able to outweave the sharingan, catch opponents with the slimist of eye contact, and conjure up Susano faster than any attack the opponent has.



> and Deva path packing CT,ST, and CST is gonna screw over Itachi if he gets close(though CT is gonna screw him over even if he isn't close). Ect ect ect. you get the point by now.


Itachi can see chakra build up and summon Susano faster than Pein can cast ST. Also OP placed the fight in Amegakure. He balanced the fight by ridding Itachi of Koto and Pein of CST and CT.

You still haven't responded to any of my previous points which clearly unravel your argument.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Difference is the way the Genjutsu was implemented. Why do you think Itachi goes around and saying to people to not look in his eyes? Because his Genjutsu in visual based. Sound Genjutsu effects your ear drums, this doesn?t mean visual Genjutsu can catch you. Sound and sight are two different senses, I don?t think you even know what the 5 human senses are because you seem to think they are the same thing. If a person is blind, do you think they are deaf as well? Just because you get effected through one sense doesn?t automatically qualify you into being effected by another sense.



You STILL aren't getting it. :sigh

I specifically outlined in my response to you that the stimuli used to capture people or animals under genjutsu can differ, I even gave multiple examples of different kinds. My point was the end result is the same, meaning you can be genjutsu'd if you get caught by the stimuli. 

Anyway I was arguing his positive claim that because the Pein bodies got caught in a sound genjutsu, they are therefore immune to visual genjutsu. That makes no fucking sense. I'm not gonna sit here and teach you cause and effect and logic. If you don't understand why his claim doesn't meet the burden of proof, or even begin to I can't help you.

Anyway my claim is the yes Pein bodies will be affected by visual genjutsu. I have evidence as well. Genjutsu affects anyone with a nervous system, who subsequently intakes the stimuli used to manipulate their mind. The peins have shown they are capable of having their nervous system manipulated. they have shown that they can see. Therefore there is no evidence to suggest Itachi could not and more in favor that he could catch them under genjutsu. The Pein bodies have nothing to suggest they can resist visual genjutsu. 

Bring me proof they have resistance to visual genjutsu and I'll entertain your argument.Also explain how Itachi and Sasuke dispelled a sound genjutsu using visual genjutsu on eachother.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 24, 2014)

Ah well, you might have a point then. I assumed visual wouldn't work because Nagato can just disrupt the chakra flow through his rods and escape the Genjutsu. Since Preta path was absorbing Naruto's sage chakra, it only effected that body alone and not the other bodies so the chakras aren't linked through the 6 bodies, only shared vision is so if Genjutsu is implemented in one body it shouldn't effect the rest of the bodies.


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> You STILL aren't getting it. :sigh
> 
> I specifically outlined in my response to you that the stimuli used to capture people or animals under genjutsu can differ, I even gave multiple examples of different kinds. My point was the end result is the same, meaning you can be genjutsu'd if you get caught by the stimuli.
> 
> ...





Itachi would get wrecked by pain.

His visual genjutsu would be useless against 2x superior eyes + yin master.
The rest of his arsenal is simply absorbed by preta path or shinra tenseiʻd away by deva path. Even amaterasu simply gets preta pathʻd off before it kills, or shinra tenseid before it hits.
V4 susanoo is what keeps him alive from asuraʻs missiles + lasers + animal summons, and even if he somehow defeats a path, naraka is there to clean up.


Then thereʻs the fact that CT is a game ender.

ANd how is Itachi going to Ama two Paths right off the bat when Ama requires chakra build up in the eye--Tbh, a more likley scenario at a close distance is Deva hits Itachi with an amplified ST either sending him flying backwards or forcing him to cushion the blow with Susanoo.

achi will have to rely on his Mangekyou Sharingan to delay the inevitable, which will significantly drain his Chakra due to his low stamina. Additionally, Pain has the adequate countermeasures to everything Itachi can pull off. Amaterasu, which is probably Itachi's offensive trump card, as well as all of his offensive attacks/projectiles can be repelled using Shinra Tensei. As for Genjutsu, a basic one would be useless as Itachi is outnumbered, while Tsukuyomi would be a mere waste of precious Chakra as Naraka realm can heal the Pain body from the psychological damage. One would say that Itachi could target Naraka realm and it's one down, however,  Nagato will have Naraka realm close its eyes so that it won't get caught by Tsukuyomi (that won't be disadvantageous as Naraka realm could use the other bodies' vision as well as the summons' vision to see everything happening in the battlefield). Itachi will be pressured by Asura realm's volleys and Animal realm's summons, which will leave him with no choice but to constantly shield himself with Susanoo and consequently use up more of his small supply of Chakra. Pain could also pull Itachi out of the Susanoo and extract his soul, stab him with a Chakra rod or have Asura realm shoot him with a number of missiles. 

All in all, Pain can either outlast Itachi or finish him off with ease.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Ah well, you might have a point then. I assumed visual wouldn't work because Nagato can just disrupt the chakra flow through his rods and escape the Genjutsu. Since Preta path was absorbing Naruto's sage chakra, it only effected that body alone and not the other bodies so the chakras aren't linked through the 6 bodies, only shared vision is so if Genjutsu is implemented in one body it shouldn't effect the rest of the bodies.



Nagato only disrupts other people's chakra wih the rods. Anybody that is alive is using his chakra. The rods act as extensions. So if Nagato is using chakra to control them over long range, I don't see why Itachi would problem using their visual chakra connection to trap all of them in a genjutsu.

Preta Path seals chakra into his body using his power, therefore nullifying it. When he attempted to do that to Natural energy he sealed the nature Energy into the Preta Body alone hence why only that path turned into a frog stone. Genjutsu is manipulating pre existing chakra through stimuli. Since all paths would receive his stimuli catalyst through their shared vision (which is dependent on chakra receivers) all would be effected the same.

Similar to how once Naruto poked his self with the the CD Blade he could backwards trace Pein's location.



JuicyG said:


> -snip-


At this point you aren't even rebutting my points and just throwing out non evidenced points, and yelling your right.

You either trolling or stupid, and I'm not interested in continuing with either.


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> At this point you aren't even rebutting my points and just throwing out non evidenced points, and yelling your right.
> 
> You either trolling or stupid, and I'm not interested in continuing with either.




Well im glad you decided that I was right and you was wrong. It seems that you can no longer ignore my points which are correct.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Nagato only disrupts other people's chakra wih the rods. Anybody that is alive is using his chakra. The rods act as extensions. So if Nagato is using chakra to control them over long range, I don't see why Itachi would problem using their visual chakra connection to trap all of them in a genjutsu.
> 
> Preta Path seals chakra into his body using his power, therefore nullifying it. When he attempted to do that to Natural energy he sealed the nature Energy into the Preta Body alone hence why only that path turned into a frog stone. Genjutsu is manipulating pre existing chakra through stimuli. Since all paths would receive his stimuli catalyst through their shared vision (which is dependent on chakra receivers) all would be effected the same.
> 
> Similar to how once Naruto poked his self with the the CD Blade he could backwards trace Pein's location.



Because Nagato can snap his bodies out of the Genjutsu, Nagato himself doesn’t get effected by the Genjutsu or anything else which is happened to the Pain bodies themselves, that’s why no other Pain body and Nagato himself didn’t turn into a stone frog. As you said, Preta path seals chakra so if he is sealing chakra inside himself then this effects his own chakra into turning into a frog. If the chakra was linked to the other bodies and Nagato then they all would have turned into frogs, and this is why Itachi’s Genjutsu won’t work on Pain simultaneously. 

I actually said in my first post in this thread that Itachi does better than Jiraiya in this situation because Itachi can see the Rin'negan's blindspots hence the chameleon won't be a problem and nor will be the shared vision. But the way you think Itachi defeats Pain is that he just has to Genjutsu one body and the rest will be deactivated, along with Nagato himself. I know you don't like to see Itachi losing but at least give other characters some respect if you just think Genjutsu is the answer to everything. You sound like IchLibe with his notion of Kakashi's one-hit Genjutsu technique being the one above all.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Because Nagato can snap his bodies out of the Genjutsu,


He would have done this against Frog song then.



> Nagato himself doesn?t get effected by the Genjutsu or anything else which is happened to the Pain bodies themselves,


He's never been put against visual illusions before. But his paths are ussceptible to genjutsu. If all Itachi needs is eye contact and they all share vision he could possibly send his chakra into the minds of all of them at which point he can deceive all of their vision, making it a weakpoint to the Rinnengan.



> that?s why no other Pain body and Nagato himself didn?t turn into a stone frog. As you said, Preta path seals chakra so if he is sealing chakra inside himself then this effects his own chakra into turning into a frog.


No you misunderstand me. Preta Seals attacks into his own body. The paths don't share the same body but they do share the same personality, chakra, and visual experience. They are all different "aspects" of Nagato linked by his chakra, and with shared vision. Genjutsu affects the mind not the body, Natural energy turns the body into a frog hence why it didn't affect any other path as there bodies weren't sealing Senjutsu into themselves.



> If the chakra was linked to the other bodies and Nagato then they all would have turned into frogs, and this is why Itachi?s Genjutsu won?t work on Pain simultaneously.


The chakra Rods transport and distribute Nagato's chakra. Preta doesn't seal stuff into his rods or transport anything he seals to other paths. However genjutsu works by affecting the NS of a target. Each paths nervous system is dependant on Nagato's chakra, which is controlled by the rods. When the rods are taken out the body can't be controlled.

So if Itachi affects one via visual stimuli and they are all exposed through the link that distrubutes their consciousness, and visual intake they'd all be exposed to the genjutsu affects.


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

I very much doubt that a MS genjutsu could ever possibly solo a rinne user. Its not plausible and its not canon. So why is Dr. Douche debating as if it were real ? As far as he knows its just fanfic


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I very much doubt that a MS genjutsu could ever possibly solo a rinne user. Its not plausible and its not canon. So why is Dr. Douche debating as if it were real ? As far as he knows its just fanfic



Because having the Rinnengan doesn't grant you sharingan powers of insight?
-Why else would Obito implant 1 rinnengan, and 1 sharingan in his paths?
-Why did Madara have to go back to MS to use genjutsu vs Ei?
-Why couldn't Deva Path see that Naruto had henged 1,000 clones into rocks around him?

Your argument is because Rinnengan is a higher evolution that it can bypass the effects of the lower forms, and that is correct, if you actually used sharingan and evolved it into a rinnengan. They are two completely different things, with different jutsu and mechanics.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 24, 2014)

In general, Itachi would probably do better than Jiraiya did.

Amaterasu is a jutsu that is fast enough to get past Pain's shared vision. Pain has the shared vision, he can see the technique, but the Fat Pain won't be able to save the one Itachi aims with it.


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> In general, Itachi would probably do better than Jiraiya did.
> 
> Amaterasu is a jutsu that is fast enough to get past Pain's shared vision. Pain has the shared vision, he can see the technique, but the Fat Pain won't be able to save the one Itachi aims with it.




At best that is one path down. But without knowledge how would Itachi know to use Ama right away and which path to avoid ? With no knowledge Itachi still dies in the fight for reasons previously stated


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2014)

If the Animal Path is going to play the same way he did against Jiraiya, then Itachi won't make it past him. Itachi's chakra is rather small, and to deal with around 8 summons will take from him a massive amount of chakra. 

We know that healthy itachi (part 1), was around base Jiraiya's level as he admitted, so overall he should be able to do around that amount of what base Jiraiya did.

Perhaps even less since he does not know about Konan as much as Jiraiya, and even if he does after 10 years of spying, he still does not have her weakness, so, defeating Konan won't be as easily as in Jiraiya's case. She almost killed obito after all. U_U


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

I agree with Hussain.


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 24, 2014)

holy shyt did i just read


Animal path >>>> itachi   


one of you please make that thread and watch how fast it gets locked


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## Cognitios (Sep 24, 2014)

it's already been done
here it is for your and hussain/juicygg's refrence


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 24, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> it's already been done
> here it is for your and hussain/juicygg's refrence



80% in favor of itachi not suprising


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> it's already been done
> here it is for your and hussain/juicygg's refrence



that 2 years old.


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## Cognitios (Sep 24, 2014)

> that 2 years old.


If you wanna make another one go ahead.
Idk if you knew this but Animal Realm solos itachi is so trollish it's a well-known joke on NF,


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Sep 24, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> If you wanna make another one go ahead.
> Idk if you knew this but Animal Realm solos itachi is so trollish it's a well-known joke on NF,



Well if he doesn't know mabey its not as well known as you thought lol


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## Cognitios (Sep 24, 2014)

> Well if he doesn't know mabey its not as well known as you thought lol


We have people who've been around the NBD for months just now discovering the convo thread.
But ya it's really well known in NF


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> If you wanna make another one go ahead.
> Idk if you knew this but Animal Realm solos itachi is so trollish it's a well-known joke on NF,



it's still not the same conditions in that thread and this one. Also, I don't see why should I make another one when this thread is about the same thing!  

and despite 99% of the debaters here are itachi's fanboys, I think it's obvious.


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## Cognitios (Sep 24, 2014)

> it's still not the same conditions in that thread and this one. Also, I don't see why should I make another one when this thread is about the same thing!
> 
> and despite 99% of the debaters here are itachi's fanboys, I think it's obvious.


You honestly believe that it is obvious that Animal Realm > Itachi? 
Come on mate, itachi has multitudes of ways to take animal realm out, like literally his entire arsenal can oneshot


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2014)

I'm saying it's obvious that all of itachi's fanboys, the majority of the debaters here, will say itachi. So, it's pointless to make a thread about it.  

as for the actual fight, I'm talking about specific conditions. If the Animal Path is going to use his summons one after the other, then yes, it will take massive chakra of itachi to deal with them, and since he does not have that many to begin with, it will be a huge problem for him. U_U


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

Animal Path alone gets destroyed by Itachi--Thats stupid talk

The problem is that people really believe a sick Itachi will beat Pain even w/out knowledge, that blows my mind.


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## CatnipAvenger (Sep 25, 2014)

Will Itachi win has the same answer as....

Will Tsukyome effect all paths at once. (Vision link)
Please don't use that frog song bs. If you believe it is the same thing you are completely mistaken.
So please, answer this... If Itachi Tsukuyomes Karin, and Juugo looks over her shoulder into his eyes at that exact moment, are they both caught? 

If Itachi is sick he has little chance to win but... Didn't Pervmaster just go for intel?


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Yea if it was soo simple to just genjutsu GG a rinniegan user then Itachi would have told Sasuke or noted that to someone as a tactic to take down Madara. People really want to resort to genjutsu GG as a scape route for Itachi to win each an every fight.

Grimm is trying to make up canon by saying Itachi can take out all the paths with one genjutsu


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## Ghost (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> People really want to resort to genjutsu GG as a scape route for Itachi to win each an every fight.



And that is Itachi's forte. 

You keep resorting "speed GG" as a way for Minato and Tobirama to win every fight. Bit ironic don't you think?


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## CatnipAvenger (Sep 25, 2014)

Jaraiya toads Genjutsu'd pain so I assume Tsukuyomi would work, I don't hear hype for frog song coming from those not using it. Nagato is no Madara, Having the rinnegan isn't proven to help against genjutsu, being a genius is.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

saikyou said:


> And that is Itachi's forte.
> 
> You keep resorting "speed GG" as a way for Minato and Tobirama to win every fight. Bit ironic don't you think?




Because we know speed kills. In a literal sense. You cant beat speed unless you have the speed to match said speed. Genjutsu on the other hand has been shown not to work in certain cases, also if you have any sort of knowledge on such genjutsu, like Tobirama, you can beat them everytime. For example in those epic fights between the greatest uchiha ever versus hashirama, why wasn't a genjutsu the move that won the fight for Madara ? Because it can be avoided, and speed can not if the opponent is simply to slow to react.

Damn I hate fan boys


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Because we know speed kills. In a literal sense. You cant beat speed unless you have the speed to match said speed. Genjutsu on the other hand has been shown not to work in certain cases, also if you have any sort of knowledge on such genjutsu, like Tobirama, you can beat them everytime. For example in those epic fights between the greatest uchiha ever versus hashirama, why wasn't a genjutsu the move that won the fight for Madara ? Because it can be avoided, and speed can not if the opponent is simply to slow to react.
> 
> Damn I hate fan boys


Genjutsu isn't Madara's forte. And Itachi is the only person who has innovative ways of catching his opponents with genjutsu.

Itachi found a way to cast genjutsu on every person who thought they could avoid genjutsu somehow. So actually, genjutsu GG is a pretty strong and valid argument for Itachi.


As for this match up, I simply am not sure. But I think shared vision might actually get all paths caught in genjutsu.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Genjutsu isn't Madara's forte. And Itachi is the only person who has innovative ways of catching his opponents with genjutsu.
> 
> Itachi found a way to cast genjutsu on every person who thought they could avoid genjutsu somehow. So actually, genjutsu GG is a pretty strong and valid argument for Itachi.
> 
> ...




Saying that Itachi soloes paths with one genjutsu is all speculations on your part thus is not valid in a debate. 

I agree that Itachi's forte is genjutsu, but at the same time you can't simply say that Itachi soloes everyone due to said move. We know Itachi is not a God tier, top tier, transcendent tier shinobi, he is a high-kage level shinobi, no more. If he could solo top tier fighters with a genjustu then he'd be higher on the tier list.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Saying that Itachi soloes paths with one genjutsu is all speculations on your part thus is not valid in a debate.
> 
> I agree that Itachi's forte is genjutsu, but at the same time you can't simply say that Itachi soloes everyone due to said move. We know Itachi is not a God tier, top tier, transcendent tier shinobi, he is a high-kage level shinobi, no more. If he could solo top tier fighters with a genjustu then he'd be higher on the tier list.



I don't think anyone here claimed that Itachi can oneshot people with genjutsu or solo people outside his range. You are making a fuss out of nothing.

Also speculations are valid debates if the reasoning is good enough. If a thought is good enough to entertain, and if there isn't any counter evidence, then why not talk about the possibility ? 

I never said it would work 100%. I just think it might.
But I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't either.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think anyone here claimed that Itachi can oneshot people with genjutsu or solo people outside his range. You are making a fuss out of nothing.
> 
> Also speculations are valid debates if the reasoning is good enough. If a thought is good enough to entertain, and if there isn't any counter evidence, then why not talk about the possibility ?
> 
> ...




If its not canon ( actually happened in some manner ) then its still only fanfic.

For example. Jiraiya can stomp Itachi by making a giant rasengan ball and rushing towards Itachi thus avoiding genjustu throw eye contact and blocking ama attempts by using the rasengan as a shield and smashing Itachi's susanoo in pieces


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> If its not canon ( actually happened in some manner ) then its still only fanfic.


Raikage and Jiraiya never fought before in the manga. So by your definition, no one can make an argument favoring either one, thus this match up can't be debated.

No offense, bu thats the most retarded comment I've read in Naruto BD in years.

Everything we talk here is noncanon. All the arguments here are just possbilities based on canon evidence. As long as I have evidence to back up my argument, I can debate whatever I want. 




> For example. Jiraiya can stomp Itachi by making a giant rasengan ball and rushing towards Itachi thus avoiding genjustu throw eye contact and blocking ama attempts by using the rasengan as a shield and smashing Itachi's susanoo in pieces


Competely irrelevant.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikage and Jiraiya never fought before in the manga. So by your definition, no one can make an argument favoring either one, thus this match up can't be debated.
> 
> No offense, bu thats the most retarded comment I've read in Naruto BD in years.
> 
> ...




OMG ( Never thought people could be so incomptent smh)

You are not debating canon feats. You are making shit up and deciding that its rational and that it can work even though nothing of the sort has happened. No one has ever placed a rinne user in a genjutsu, let alone genjutsu all the paths at once by doing so....so dumb of you.

And the example I gave was actually more rational than your attempt to solo Pain with a genjutsu


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> OMG ( Never thought people could be so incomptent smh)
> 
> You are not debating canon feats. You are making shit up and deciding that its rational and that it can work even though nothing of the sort has happened. No one has ever placed a rinne user in a genjutsu, let alone genjutsu all the paths at once by doing so....so dumb of you.


Battledome rule number 1 : Absence of evidence is not evidence.
Get your chuunin level ass back to academy.




> And the example I gave was actually more rational than your attempt to solo Pain with a genjutsu



Not it wasn't. 
You just proved that you are an angry 13 year old thats all.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Battledome rule number 1 : Absence of evidence is not evidence.
> Get your chuunin level ass back to academy.
> 
> 
> ...





Ok you know what, I can tell you can no longer put up a worthy debate with me, but since your fanboyism is at an all-time high you won't concede my points. I thought the BD was about debating with feats and evidence, yet you speak of using no evidence as practical means to debate....you give this debating forum a bad name. 

A bit of advice, choose someone else as to worship other than Itachi for a while, maybe it'll bring you back to the real world.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Ok you know what, I can tell you can no longer put up a worthy debate with me, but since your fanboyism is at an all-time high you won't concede my points. I thought the BD was about debating with feats and evidence, yet you speak of using no evidence as practical means to debate....you give this debating forum a bad name.


Seriously, you need education because apparently you don't know anything about debating. My intent is good. Without the basics, you can't survive here.



> A bit of advice, choose someone else as to worship other than Itachi for a while, maybe it'll bring you back to the real world.



Wow, best advice 2014.


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## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Seriously, you need education because apparently you don't know anything about debating. My intent is good. Without the basics, you can't survive here.



Ok, I need education ? But your the one trying to debate with points that have never been seen in canon...right, ok...



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Wow, best advice 2014.



 I'm glad you think so. I am happy to help the disease that is fanboyism


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> He would have done this against Frog song then.


Unless Nagato's plan is to have Jiraiya lower his guard.

Also note the absence of Nagato and the other Paths from the illusion.


> He's never been put against visual illusions before. But his paths are susceptible to genjutsu. If all Itachi needs is eye contact and they all share vision *he could possibly send his chakra* into the minds of all of them at which point he can deceive all of their vision, making it a weakpoint to the Rinnegan.


Only character to do this is Naruto, in Sage Mode.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Itachi can chakra control how much Susano and Amaterasu he summons. If preta even tries to absorb ama off another path (who will begin searing immediately) he opens himself up to Susano blitz, Itachi could also just send a katon or clone that way so Preta doesn't have time to do both.


First of all Susanoo has stages. He has never shown to use just Totsuka or just YM. The most we have ever seen partially used of Susanoo is an arm and ribs. Each cast of Amaterasu takes the same amount of chakra and produces the same amount of flames, its only when Itachi chooses to direct the flames or use multiple Amaterasu's does the cost and side effects increase substantially.

What do you mean that Preta can't do both at the same time? Preta can absorb the clone(he absorbed Naruto's transformation jutsu) And preta has never shown to have a limit to how much it can absorb.





> Itachi's will exhaust himself but OHKO the paths, especially the first group. deva, Asura, and Naraka are the only team who can possibly beat him in this scenario because Deva and Asura have a chance at stalling him while Naraka revives them, but even that is iffy because Itachi has Totsuka.


Preta can solo, Human is extremely dangerous in CQC(1 touch and its over, only reason Naruto was able to resist is because of his unique training beforehand), and Animal can solo. Cerebrus if not dealt with Amaterasu then its quickly gets out of hand, so Amaterasu is a must(1MS jutsu), other summons play aggro while human tries to get a touch. 


> Great argument for genjutsu failing. More like Tsukuyomi GG, even to Nagato back at base.


This is false on so many levels and can be disproved easily. Nagato communicates through his paths which means that he hears what they here. And even communicated through single paths at multiple times so if what you say is true and Tsukuyomi would affect Nagato, would Frog Song not as well, despite it not?




I look at it this way

Jiraiya was able to infiltrate the village, adequately fight against Konan, kill 3 paths, and took a hostage with only one arm and send it back to Konoha as well as invaluable intelligence. I don't see Itachi accomplishing that.


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## Dr. White (Sep 25, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> First of all Susanoo has stages. He has never shown to use just Totsuka or just YM.


-I never mentioned Totsuka or Yata I'm not sure why you brought those up. I was referring to Ribcage which can be used sparingly and on the go. Nothing any of the paths(barring Asura/Deva) have is busting Ribcage let alone V2, and Itachi has a sword with his ribcage mode he can use for offense.



> Each cast of Amaterasu takes the same amount of chakra and produces the same amount of flames, its only when Itachi chooses to direct the flames or use multiple Amaterasu's does the cost and side effects increase substantially.


No it doesn't. The amount of flames summoned corresponds to what needs to be done. For example Itachi used more Amaterasu to cancel sasuke's Katon than he did trying to take out Naruto and his bird. It's only logical to assume the more fire spawned, the more chakra needed and the more strain it causes.



> What do you mean that Preta can't do both at the same time? Preta can absorb the clone(he absorbed Naruto's transformation jutsu) And preta has never shown to have a limit to how much it can absorb.


Preta isn't absorbing all of amaterasu before Itachi can follow up with an attack. If preta is directing his attention to helping a downed path, Itachi can capitalize on him which can easily be done with a Katon + Shushin blitz.



> Preta can solo,


No he cannot. Itachi runs circles around his fat ass and lops his head off. Itachi doesn't even need MS to take out Preta.



> Human is extremely dangerous in CQC(1 touch and its over, only reason Naruto was able to resist is because of his unique training beforehand),


Human path is dangerous to people like Shizune. Not people like Itachi was outclass the hell out of eachpath in speed/reactions. Human path can be dangerous with numbers, but Itachi's sharingan, and skillset allow him to remain virtually untouched even if restrained (via Amaterasu defense, and Susano manifestation
.


> and Animal can solo. Cerebrus if not dealt with Amaterasu then its quickly gets out of hand, so Amaterasu is a must(1MS jutsu), other summons play aggro while human tries to get a touch.


Itachi can burn multiple targets at once. 

Susano will rape any Summons.

Summons aren't immune to genjutsu.

?????? 

Profit.

Even if for some reason you don't think Itachi with MS easily handles the summons, you should atleast give him credit, to be able to do the smart think and simply kill Animal realm.



> This is false on so many levels and can be disproved easily. Nagato communicates through his paths which means that he hears what they here. And even communicated through single paths at multiple times so if what you say is true and Tsukuyomi would affect Nagato, would Frog Song not as well, despite it not?


Nagato transmits his chakra through the rods, which gives each path his personality and Rinnengan. Nagato only shares vision with all of his paths. It was never stated or implied that he shares anything else with them. Each body has a part of Nagato's consciousness but the only thing that gets relayed was the vision.



I look at it this way



> Jiraiya was able to infiltrate the village, adequately fight against Konan, kill 3 paths, and took a hostage with only one arm and send it back to Konoha as well as invaluable intelligence. I don't see Itachi accomplishing that.


-Itachi knew more about Nagato, and was in his organization.
-Itachi was shown to be able to decipher Pein's moveset much quicker than Jiraiya, and used the information in a fight better than Full knowledge Naruto.
-Itachi's has crows he could have sent the info from along with sharingan to really info through genjutsu.
-Itachi was skilled enough in sneaking to get him and Kisame into the heart of Konoha, and was capable to tracking Obito as a 13 year old without him noticing. 

-Lets not get it twisted here.

Itachi is stronger and smarter than Jiraiya. He has much better chances of surviving/beating Jiraiya than Itachi.



Doctor Crane said:


> Unless Nagato's plan is to have Jiraiya lower his guard.


That wasn't though. Nagato had no knowledge on the jutsu and was trying to kill him from the get go. Hence Pein's praise after the fight.



> Also note the absence of Nagato and the other Paths from the illusion.


I didn't know Rinnengan transmits sounds? Pein Paths have "shared hearing"?



> Only character to do this is Naruto, in Sage Mode.


Naruto didn't send his chakra through the rods. He stuck Pein's transmitter into himself, and triangulated Pein's chakra source with Nature sensing.

so I don't know what you're getting at with any of your post.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> That wasn't though.


O rly? 


			
				Pocalypse said:
			
		

> Because Nagato can snap his bodies out of the Genjutsu,





			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> He would have done this against Frog song then.


If he had broken himself out of _Gamarinsho_, Jiraiya would have still had his defenses up. As you mentioned Nagato wants to kill Jiraiya, so getting him to drop his guard is critical.


> I didn't know Rinnengan transmits sounds? Pein Paths have "shared hearing"?


It'd make conversing with other people rather difficult if Nagato couldn't hear through his Paths. The Paths' shared senses come from being connected to Nagato, not from having the Rinnegan.


> Naruto didn't send his chakra through the rods. He stuck Pein's transmitter into himself, and triangulated Pein's chakra source with Nature sensing.


His eyes appearing behind Nagato suggests he sends his chakra, much like when Nagato's eyes appear behind those stabbed by the chakra receivers. [1, 2]


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## Dr. White (Sep 26, 2014)

Doctor Crane said:


> O rly?


-He was doing that from the start, he freakin started out just using Animal despite his ability to use all 6 from the getgo. It just so happened that Jiraiya beat his 3 bodies, prompting Pain to step it up to Six. Your hypothesis that Pain was simply just allowing himself to be put in Frog song, has no evidence towards it. 


> ​If he had broken himself out of _Gamarinsho_, Jiraiya would have still had his defenses up. As you mentioned Nagato wants to kill Jiraiya, so getting him to drop his guard is critical.


The problem is you are making an assumption that The 3 bodies caught in Frog Song could escape, which is not true from what we saw. His plan wasn't to have 3 bodies get killed and surprise him. His plan was to slowly gain info and push Jiraiya starting from 1 path (animal) to 3 Paths (preta, animal, and human). It just so happened Jiraiya caught him offguard and killed 3 of them, which prompted Deva to take the obvious strategy of ambushing him since he had no idea there were actually six.

This is why Pain then hypes him, and says with knowledge he could have won vs all six. Jiraiya vs 3 admitted his arsenal alone couldn't take 3 and he needed something like a genjutsu.



> It'd make conversing with other people rather difficult if Nagato couldn't hear through his Paths. The Paths' shared senses come from being connected to Nagato, not from having the Rinnegan.


Nagato is each path but the only thing they share is shared vision hence Jiraiaya's security camera analysis.


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## Rocky (Sep 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Nagato is each path but the only thing they share is shared vision hence Jiraiaya's security camera analysis.



This doesn't make any sense.

Nagato can hear through all of the paths, thus they "share hearing," because Nagato directly controls all the paths. If _he_ hears it, they all here it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2014)

Actually those paths should share all senses, considering its just one person controlling them.

So I don't know why the eye link is emphasized as the "rinnegan link". I  mean, Nagato sees through all of them, so even if they had regular eyes, it wouldn't change the way their vision operates.



Dr. White said:


> Nagato is each path but the only thing they share is shared vision hence Jiraiaya's security camera analysis.




He made that analogy because @ that point he(or we) didn't know those were animated corpses controlled by 1 person. He thought they were seperate individuals who only shared vision.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Sep 26, 2014)

Please lock this for some reason every time my posts become popular debates they always trail off into something that has nothing to do with the original question lol.


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## Dr. White (Sep 26, 2014)

Rocky said:


> This doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Nagato can hear through all of the paths, thus they "share hearing," because Nagato directly controls all the paths. If _he_ hears it, they all here it.



So if Pain is using Chakra receivers to send his Consciousness and Rinnengan to each path, and he heard the full Frog song why weren't all the bodies effected and only 3 of them that were in the vicinity? 

To me the most logical conclusions are that
A.) The paths who weren't in that concentrated area of sound, weren't effected.
or 
B.) They don't share hearing with one another.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> He's never been put against visual illusions before. But his paths are ussceptible to genjutsu. If all Itachi needs is eye contact and they all share vision he could possibly send his chakra into the minds of all of them at which point he can deceive all of their vision, making it a weakpoint to the Rinnengan.



Exactly, so you don?t know if visual illusions can work on Pain or not and it?s certainly not going to work in the way you?re explaining it. They have shared vision, not shared chakra so at best Itachi can only Genjutsu one body and the other bodies wouldn?t be effected.



> No you misunderstand me. Preta Seals attacks into his own body. The paths don't share the same body but they do share the same personality, chakra, and visual experience. They are all different "aspects" of Nagato linked by his chakra, and with shared vision. Genjutsu affects the mind not the body, Natural energy turns the body into a frog hence why it didn't affect any other path as there bodies weren't sealing Senjutsu into themselves.



Preta Path can absorb chakra as well. As the body did with sage chakra. If the bodies shared the same connection of chakra to each other, the bodies would have turned to stone as well and you have absolutely no proof to rebuttal this because it?s already been shown in the manga ? the other bodies didn?t turn into stone. 



> The chakra Rods transport and distribute Nagato's chakra. Preta doesn't seal stuff into his rods or transport anything he seals to other paths. However genjutsu works by affecting the NS of a target. Each paths nervous system is dependant on Nagato's chakra, which is controlled by the rods. When the rods are taken out the body can't be controlled.
> 
> So if Itachi affects one via visual stimuli and they are all exposed through the link that distrubutes their consciousness, and visual intake they'd all be exposed to the genjutsu affects.



Wait, so you say Preta path doesn?t transport anything but somehow if he gets caught in a Genjutsu, that will affect the rest of the bodies? Don?t flip flop. Itachi is not effecting and one-shotting all Pain bodies by just staring. At best he captures one in a Genjutsu, end of.


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## Dr. White (Sep 26, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Exactly, so you don?t know if visual illusions can work on Pain or not and it?s certainly not going to work in the way you?re explaining it. They have shared vision, not shared chakra so at best Itachi can only Genjutsu one body and the other bodies wouldn?t be effected.


First off, are you saying that the Pein shared visin network isn't shared by chakra? Are you really making that argument?

Pein bodies have eyes, and a nervous system so they can be genjutsu'd. The burden of proof is on you to prove it wouldn't. 



> Preta Path can absorb chakra as well. As the body did with sage chakra. If the bodies shared the same connection of chakra to each other, the bodies would have turned to stone as well and you have absolutely no proof to rebuttal this because it?s already been shown in the manga ? the other bodies didn?t turn into stone.


Genjutsu works by manipulating a pre-existing chakra network.

Preta Path works by sealing the chakra into his body.

It makes no sense that Preta would share that chakra with them, because it's being sealed into the Pein body which we know has no represuccison on other paths. 

Itachi manipulating their chakra network would be completely different and isn't comparable.





> Wait, so you say Preta path doesn?t transport anything but somehow if he gets caught in a Genjutsu, that will affect the rest of the bodies? Don?t flip flop. Itachi is not effecting and one-shotting all Pain bodies by just staring. At best he captures one in a Genjutsu, end of.


Read above.


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## AkashiSeijuro (Sep 26, 2014)

Itachi wouldn't last very long.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> First off, are you saying that the Pein shared visin network isn't shared by chakra? Are you really making that argument?
> 
> Pein bodies have eyes, and a nervous system so they can be genjutsu'd. The burden of proof is on you to prove it wouldn't.



Yes I am making that argument, why should their shared vision have anything to do with chakra? If you shut down chakra from one body deactivate that body it’s not going to deactivate all the other bodies. 

The burden of proof is on you considering you think Itachi can hypnotise Pain in 1 second and proceed to beat Pain by just staring at one body with Genutsu and this somehow affects the rest of the bodies, but I guess it works in fanfiction world. 



> Genjutsu works by manipulating a pre-existing chakra network.
> 
> Preta Path works by sealing the chakra into his body.
> 
> ...



Clearly you don’t know what Preta path and sage chakra is. When Preta path absorbed sage chakra, it affected its own chakra and thus turned him into a stone. If the chakra is connected throughout the bodies, their chakra would have been affected too and thus turned to stone. Genjutsu isn’t any different than this and it shouldn’t have these fan made accusations of it being any different. Seriously, it’s like talking to a fucking brick wall here. Itachi would manipulate one body, not all the bodies simultaneously.

You at first said in this thread that Itachi wins this with high difficulty. I don't believe that for a second because going by your logic, why didn't you just say Itachi can capture Animal path then disrupt his charka with some stimuli bullshit Genjutsu which then can effectively defeat Pain? If Itachi can do this fanmade OHKO technique, why does he need to go through the rest of the bodies?


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## Dr. White (Sep 26, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Yes I am making that argument, why should their shared vision have anything to do with chakra? If you shut down chakra from one body deactivate that body it’s not going to deactivate all the other bodies.
> 
> When Kakashi got stabbed with Pein's chakra, he saw Pein's eyes, and his own chakra was disrupted by Nagatos.


-Pain controls the bodies and transmits his consciousness through *chakra receiver rods* . without them he can't control the bodies, and Naruto traingulated it because it contained Nagato's chakra.

Therefore it is to reason that Shared vision connects them through the chakra receiving rods which control the perception and consciousness.



> The burden of proof is on you considering you think Itachi can hypnotise Pain in 1 second and proceed to beat Pain by just staring at one body with Genutsu and this somehow affects the rest of the bodies, but I guess it works in fanfiction world.


why are the paths immune to genjutsu?

You think if they all see Itachi's genjutsu through the shared vision none would get hyponzited? Despite Itachi's hype to genjutsu from range? You have yet to give an argument on how they are immune to jutsu, especially when there fighting style revolves around sharing vision and using that to overwhelm opponents and defend. 





> Clearly you don’t know what Preta path and sage chakra is. When Preta path absorbed sage chakra, it affected its own chakra and thus turned him into a stone. If the chakra is connected throughout the bodies, their chakra would have been affected too and thus turned to stone.


No you don't know what you're talking about. All paths have rods in them that Nagato can transmit his chakra too. Preta's paths ablitiy is akin to a fuinjutsu, so if it's getting sealed it obviously wouldn't transmit, as Naruto wasn't manipulating what was happening with his Sage chakra, and none of the other bodies had Sage energy in them.

It's different with Itachi because he is actively manipulating a person's nervous system through the use of visual stimuli, and that hardcounters someone who uses different parts of his consciousness and shares vision/perception with. 




> You at first said in this thread that Itachi wins this with high difficulty. I don't believe that for a second because going by your logic, why didn't you just say Itachi can capture Animal path then disrupt his charka with some stimuli bullshit Genjutsu which then can effectively defeat Pain? If Itachi can do this fanmade OHKO technique, why does he need to go through the rest of the bodies?


I think they are weak to genjutsu. Animal path would get herself raped in combat. Like the shit would be ridiculous. 

I'm just logically trying to figure what would happen to Nagato since he shares vison with all bodies, and Itachi uses visual stimuli to trap opponents and has ranged hype on a pretty big scale.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> So if Pain is using Chakra receivers to send his Consciousness and Rinnengan to each path, and he heard the full Frog song why weren't all the bodies effected and only 3 of them that were in the vicinity?


Because they aren't hit by _Gamarinsho_'s chakra. Genjutsu works by the caster inserting chakra into a victim through one of the senses and then using that chakra to manipulate the victim's chakra and nerves.

Nagato, Deva Path, Asura Path, and Naraka Path hear the song but are untouched by its chakra. Similarly Kakashi, Sakura, and Chiyo see Itachi's finger but Naruto, the target, is the one captured.

To capture all seven in a genjutsu without all within range, Itachi would have to be able to send his chakra through the chakra receivers, a feat only Sage Mode Naruto and Kurama-Sage Mode Naruto have pulled off.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 26, 2014)

Without knowledge, Itachi would lose just in the same manner as Jiraiya did, he would probably assume that there are at tops 3 shinobi he has to fight and he would plan his chakra accordingly. Using Susano'o would probably be the death of him and he doesn't know about their absorption abilities. However, Itachi also has the sharingan and Pain may take that into account as he would have some knowledge in how to fight that. 

The most dangerous part about this is since Itachi relies on genjutsu and that's essentially rendered useless in this fight. He'd have to pull out new moves to fight against him and the really important factor is his stamina. Stamina was the reason Jiraiya lasted as long as he did and why Kakashi didn't last as long he should have.

I will give Itachi this, he'd be able to figure out how the paths work much better and quicker than Jiraiya was able to that's for sure.


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## Dr. White (Sep 26, 2014)

Doctor Crane said:


> Because they aren't hit by _Gamarinsho_'s chakra. Genjutsu works by the caster inserting chakra into a victim through one of the senses and then using that chakra to manipulate the victim's chakra and nerves.


In that instance the only one's who letgitamtely got the sound where the 3 paths, as you see the sound going into their heads. None of the other paths experienced that sound. It be like if Kabuto used Hakugeki on the 3 of the paths, the other ones wouldn't be affected because the supersonic vibrations aren't near them.

But with genjutsu, all Itachi needs is a visiaul stimulis and that hardcounters shared vision



> Nagato, Deva Path, Asura Path, and Naraka Path hear the song but are untouched by its chakra. Similarly Kakashi, Sakura, and Chiyo see Itachi's finger but Naruto, the target, is the one captured.


-Itachi's job was just to distract them.
-Itachi didn't want to really hurt them (he was a good guy)
-There is no proof he wanted to capture anyone besides Naruto with the finger genjutsu.

Sasuke just showed 2 chapters ago you can catch mutiple targets with a glance.



> To capture all seven in a genjutsu without all within range, Itachi would have to be able to send his chakra through the chakra receivers, a feat only Sage Mode Naruto and Kurama-Sage Mode Naruto have pulled off.


Idk why you don't understand. Naruto didn't freaking put his chakra through the rods (Idk what makes you believe SM Naruto has better chakra control than say Itachi) all he did he was stab Pein's rod inside himself so that he could sense his chakra signature using Sage Sensing (the one Naruto used to sense people in the war, from the Bjuu hideout). He essentially triangulated Pein, he didn't send his chakra to Pein lol.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Pain controls the bodies and transmits his consciousness through *chakra receiver rods* . without them he can't control the bodies, and Naruto traingulated it because it contained Nagato's chakra.
> 
> Therefore it is to reason that Shared vision connects them through the chakra receiving rods which control the perception and consciousness.



No shared vision has nothing to do with chakra rods. I just said if one body got deactivated, the rest wouldn’t deactivate either. What you’re trying to say is if chakra is shut down in one body, it will happen to the other bodies as well, which you are flat out wrong about.



> why are the paths immune to genjutsu?
> 
> You think if they all see Itachi's genjutsu through the shared vision none would get hyponzited? Despite Itachi's hype to genjutsu from range? You have yet to give an argument on how they are immune to jutsu, especially when there fighting style revolves around sharing vision and using that to overwhelm opponents and defend.



Oh so since you’re backed into a corner you’re trying to pull out the sensory range “feat”? Funny because in the other Itachi thread you don’t like to bring it up because Ao may have been lying or not. Stop flip flopping. And yes, Itachi is not going to hypnotize Pain bodies all at once. Also, I never said Pain was immune to Genjutsu, my point is Itachi can Genjutsu one body, but when he Genjutsu’s one body, the other bodies will not be affected. 



> No you don't know what you're talking about. All paths have rods in them that Nagato can transmit his chakra too. Preta's paths ablitiy is akin to a fuinjutsu, so if it's getting sealed it obviously wouldn't transmit, as Naruto wasn't manipulating what was happening with his Sage chakra, and none of the other bodies had Sage energy in them.
> 
> It's different with Itachi because he is actively manipulating a person's nervous system through the use of visual stimuli, and that hardcounters someone who uses different parts of his consciousness and shares vision/perception with.



Do you not know Preta Path has chakra inside? The sage chakra turned THAT chakra into SAGE CHAKRA then he turned into a frog. IF there was a chakra connection through the bodies then they ALL would have turned to stone as well. How can you not see this? It’s simple logic, did you even go to school or something? And for the love of god please get rid of this talk about “visual stimuli” BS, it’s just a fucking Genjutsu. 



> I think they are weak to genjutsu. Animal path would get herself raped in combat. Like the shit would be ridiculous.
> 
> I'm just logically trying to figure what would happen to Nagato since he shares vison with all bodies, and Itachi uses visual stimuli to trap opponents and has ranged hype on a pretty big scale.



As I said, why didn’t you mention something like “Itachi low diffs Pain because Itachi brings out his visual stimuli nervous system level Genjutsu attack on Animal realm and this proceeds to affect the rest of the bodies and Nagato included”? Because this is what you are assuming. Don’t try to diverge around it because you seriously think Itachi one-shots Pain with just a glare.


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## Dr. White (Sep 26, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> No shared vision has nothing to do with chakra rods. I just said if one body got deactivated, the rest wouldn?t deactivate either. What you?re trying to say is if chakra is shut down in one body, it will happen to the other bodies as well, which you are flat out wrong about.


What is the mechanism that Nagato and Obito used to give their paths Rinnengan? I'm pretty sure it's the chakra receiver. He didn't just magically get 6 Rinnengan to implant in his paths. Hence why if you remove all the rods the path is no longerusable by Nagato and wont have a Rinnengan.

No what you're saying makes no sense. All 6 paths are individual extensions of Nagato. But because he is sharingan his Rinnengan, every path can see through another's eyes. This means if one makes eye contact with Itachi, they all will be  seeing his sharingan. You associating other things like damage, and their individual powers with all paths which isn't at all what I am getting at. 




> Oh so since you?re backed into a corner you?re trying to pull out the sensory range ?feat?? Funny because in the other Itachi thread you don?t like to bring it up because Ao may have been lying or not. Stop flip flopping. And yes, Itachi is not going to hypnotize Pain bodies all at once. Also, I never said Pain was immune to Genjutsu, my point is Itachi can Genjutsu one body, but when he Genjutsu?s one body, the other bodies will not be affected.


I don't like to use it, but it is highly relevant here. Regardless if you like it or not Kishi had two of the most responsible war counsel's hype Itachi on a substantial level. Deal with it. 

I never said it's a sure fire 100% thing. I took it into consideration because it is highly plausible as the chakra rods connect each path back to Nagato. 





> Do you not know Preta Path has chakra inside? The sage chakra turned THAT chakra into SAGE CHAKRA then he turned into a frog. IF there was a chakra connection through the bodies then they ALL would have turned to stone as well. How can you not see this? It?s simple logic, did you even go to school or something? And for the love of god please get rid of this talk about ?visual stimuli? BS, it?s just a fucking Genjutsu.


No you are just stupid and bias and won't actually listen to what the fuck I am saying.
You are comitting an equivocation fallacy here, trying to compare 1 path w/ one abilty who seals chakra into himself (not the rods), with the most skilled genjutsu user actively attempting to manipulate a pre existing chakra system. 

Preta got turned into a Frog because he was actively sucking Naruto's Sage chakra into his body. 

The 3 paths got hit with Frog genjutsu because the sound went into their ears and reached their minds. 

Just because they share a link doesn't mean everything get's exchanged, it is used once again to transport Nagato's consciousness and vision to his paths via chakra. The thing is in Itachi's case, vision is going to be one of the things the rods do connect. That's what you aren't getting.


You act like Naruto injected Preta with Sage Mode energy...He was just making the best of his situation and since Preta couldn't balance Natural energy his body turned into a frog.

Like I don't understand what you aren't getting.

What do you mean get rid of this talk about "visual stimuli"? that's how sharingan users catch people in genjutsu? All genjutsu uses stimuli (sound, light, eye contact, mist, etc) to capture their target... Am I using words you don't understand? 




> As I said, why didn?t you mention something like ?Itachi low diffs Pain because Itachi brings out his visual stimuli nervous system level Genjutsu attack on Animal realm and this proceeds to affect the rest of the bodies and Nagato included?? Because this is what you are assuming. Don?t try to diverge around it because you seriously think Itachi one-shots Pain with just a glare.


That isn't what I said, your panties are in a bunch right now. Go cool off re read all of my post and then come back and talk when you aren't so rustled.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> What is the mechanism that Nagato and Obito used to give their paths Rinnengan? I'm pretty sure it's the chakra receiver. He didn't just magically get 6 Rinnengan to implant in his paths. Hence why if you remove all the rods the path is no longerusable by Nagato and wont have a Rinnengan.
> 
> No what you're saying makes no sense. All 6 paths are individual extensions of Nagato. But because he is sharingan his Rinnengan, every path can see through another's eyes. This means if one makes eye contact with Itachi, they all will be  seeing his sharingan. You associating other things like damage, and their individual powers with all paths which isn't at all what I am getting at.



Incorrect, this is nothing about physical damage, don?t try to put words in my mouth. How can you say they are individual extensions of Nagato then say one body being affected by Itachi?s Genjutsu will affect the rest of the bodies? That?s doesn?t compute at all. They are all separate entities, Itachi casts his Genjutsu and he will just catch one body but the rest will be unaffected and function on their own, there is absolutely nothing which implies he can get all of them at the same time through one body. 



> I don't like to use it, but it is highly relevant here. Regardless if you like it or not Kishi had two of the most responsible war counsel's hype Itachi on a substantial level. Deal with it.
> 
> I never said it's a sure fire 100% thing. I took it into consideration because it is highly plausible as the chakra rods connect each path back to Nagato.



And with no feats to back it up. 



> No you are just stupid and bias and won't actually listen to what the fuck I am saying.
> You are comitting an equivocation fallacy here, trying to compare 1 path w/ one abilty who seals chakra into himself (not the rods), with the most skilled genjutsu user actively attempting to manipulate a pre existing chakra system.
> 
> Preta got turned into a Frog because he was actively sucking Naruto's Sage chakra into his body.
> ...



Calling me bias? The irony. I've even given my reasonable opinion on how Itachi fares batter than Jiraiya through other means on my first post of this thread but you not understand the primary school level difference between a eye and a ear, vision and sound etc really caught my mind. You are the one who isn?t listening because you seriously are stuck in a Genjutsu yourself. 

Do you even know why he turned into a frog? Because HIS chakra was turned into sage chakra. Jesus fucking christ. This resulted in the other bodies remaining unaffected because the Pain bodies don?t have a chakra connection, they only have a connection with Nagato. If they did have a connection then guess the fuck, what? Nagato would be fucking turned into stone as well. 

Itachi?s Genjutsu is only going to target and connect to one body. Just like how Naruto was only able to change one chakra type, the same will apply to Itachi. There is no such thing as looking at one body and linking the Genjutsu to the rest of the bodies then back to Nagato. No. 



> That isn't what I said, your panties are in a bunch right now. Go cool off re read all of my post and then come back and talk when you aren't so rustled.



> Itachi uses Genjutsu on one body
> Stimuli bullshit affects the other bodies due to shared vision

How is that not something as low difficulty? As I said, why go through the trouble of fighting the other paths when Itachi can defeat Animal realm then in fanfiction world proceed to Genjutsu him which in your case, is a win because the rest of the bodies will be hypnotised? Look at the amount of people arguing with your BS reasons, and you?re telling us how we don?t understand things and that we are bias?


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## Dr. White (Sep 26, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> > but you not understand the primary school level difference between a eye and a ear, vision and sound etc really caught my mind. You are the one who isn?t listening because you seriously are stuck in a Genjutsu yourself.
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? The only difference between sound and sight jutsu is the way it's employed. The both invovled manipulation of a chakra source. For Sound genjutsu the opponent has to hear the sound (like Tayuya or Frog Song), with Sharingan you need eye contact. Double vision gives him eye contact with all paths.
> ...


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## FlamingRain (Sep 26, 2014)

The only universe in which Itachi soloing Pain by Genjutsu'ing Animal is _plausible_ is the one in Strategoob's mind.

We don't actually live in that universe.

Just to let you know...


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> In that instance the only one's who legitimately got the sound where the 3 paths, as you see the sound going into their heads.


No, sound travels in waves, not blobs and strands. That is Kishi's style for sound-based genjutsu chakra.


> None of the other paths experienced that sound.


A question for you.

Who is talking in this panel: Nagato or Chikushōdō ('Animal Path')?




> -Itachi's job was just to distract them.
> -Itachi didn't want to really hurt them (he was a good guy)
> -There is no proof he wanted to capture anyone besides Naruto with the finger genjutsu.


I think you missed the point. They are all able to see Itachi's finger, the visual stimulus for the technique, but Naruto is the only victim. Why?


> Sasuke just showed 2 chapters ago you can catch multiple targets with a glance.


And? We've seen mass genjutsu before. _Magen: Gamarinshō_ is an example of one.
Sasuke still has to apply his chakra to the tailed beasts to bind them.


> Idk why you don't understand. Naruto didn't freaking put his chakra through the rods


So the glowing lines racing at Nagato and Naruto's eyes behind Nagato are because... what?
Why is it so unbelievable that Naruto sends his chakra through the chakra receiver?


> (Idk what makes you believe SM Naruto has better chakra control than say Itachi)


You do realize Naruto has incredible chakra control skills, don't you? And I think you underestimate the strength of Nagato's chakra.


> (the one Naruto used to sense people in the war, from the Bjuu hideout).


Now compare Kishi's portrayals of both events. [1, 2, 3, 4] Do these really look the same to you?


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## Dr. White (Sep 27, 2014)

Doctor Crane said:


> No, sound travels in waves, not blobs and strands. That is Kishi's style for sound-based genjutsu chakra.
> A question for you.


 Obviously that is Kishi's artsyle in portraying sound. You have to hear Tayuya's flute song in order to be binded, Temari countered this by messing up the air in which the sound was travelling. The chakra is inside the sound waves. Also those are clearly waves lol, not blobs. 

Like the same thing in the deva panel where we clearly see the sound going in their head. Nagato was never exposed to the source sound.

This is why Kabuto commented that being in the cave was a perfect spot to trap Itachi and Sasuke because the sound simply resonated everywhere in the cave.



> Who is talking in this panel: Nagato or Chikushōdō ('Animal Path')?


What you just asked is the equivalent of showing me showing you a pic of a Doflamingo string clone and then asking you, who is talking Doflamingo or his string clone. They are the same person. He's just living through different bodies.



> I think you missed the point. They are all able to see Itachi's finger, the visual stimulus for the technique, but Naruto is the only victim. Why?


Because it doesn't matter, Itachi simply sticking his finger out doesn't activate the jutsu. He still has to form the chakra, and then manipulate said person's chakra. 



> And? We've seen mass genjutsu before. _Magen: Gamarinshō_ is an example of one.


Okay? Then Itachi is more deadly since his are visual based.



> Sasuke still has to apply his chakra to the tailed beasts to bind them.


What? Kyuubi completely froze after being controlled. They are all under his whim, and he got them all with a glance at once. 



> So the glowing lines racing at Nagato and Naruto's eyes behind Nagato are because... what?
> Why is it so unbelievable that Naruto sends his chakra through the chakra receiver?
> You do realize Naruto has incredible chakra control skills, don't you? And I
> At that point he didn't that was the whole reason he need clones for rasengan. He just mastered one hand Rasengan's during the war...
> ...


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## IchLiebe (Sep 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Obviously that is Kishi's artsyle in portraying sound. You have to hear Tayuya's flute song in order to be binded, Temari countered this by messing up the air in which the sound was travelling. The chakra is inside the sound waves. Also those are clearly waves lol, not blobs.
> 
> Like the same thing in the deva panel where we clearly see the sound going in their head. Nagato was never exposed to the source sound.
> 
> This is why Kabuto commented that being in the cave was a perfect spot to trap Itachi and Sasuke because the sound simply resonated everywhere in the cave.


And standing behind something isn't going to help him. Hell I can be in my bathroom taking a shit and still hear jets and helicopters flying over, cause of the properties of sound which you seem to not be able to grasp.





> What you just asked is the equivalent of showing me showing you a pic of a Doflamingo string clone and then asking you, who is talking Doflamingo or his string clone. They are the same person. He's just living through different bodies.


Exactly. BUt you don't seem to understand this. IF Nagato is living through preta, why wasn't he caught with Frog Song, especially given that Nagato hears what they hear. Nagato can hear and see everything the paths do, that is how is able to fight so easily with them.

Frog son- Preta -/- Nagato

Tsukuyomi - Preta -/- Nagato. 

You understand. Frog song only effected preta path and the paths who were directly effected the sound. You have yet to prove that Tsukuyomi could effect Nagato while everyone else is posting evidence, posting mechanics yet you just ignore them or offer up some bullshit to try to circumvent our understanding of what truly is.





> Because it doesn't matter, Itachi simply sticking his finger out doesn't activate the jutsu. He still has to form the chakra, and then manipulate said person's chakra.


Exactly. So him just pointing the finger doesn't catch everyone looking at the finger. So him tsukuyoming Preta would on Tsukuyomi preta, as he is only able to manipulate the chakra in preta's body and unable to send it to Nagato. 





> Okay? Then Itachi is more deadly since his are visual based.


But don't have the AOE such as Magen Onsa and Frog Song.





> What? Kyuubi completely froze after being controlled. They are all under his whim, and he got them all with a glance at once.


 And cast a single genjutsu on every one of them. This has nothing to do with this battle, plz get to the point you are trying(although pathetically) to get to.


> Why is it so unbelievable that Naruto sends his chakra through the chakra receiver?
> You do realize Naruto has incredible chakra control skills, don't you? And I
> At that point he didn't that was the whole reason he need clones for rasengan. He just mastered one hand Rasengan's during the war...


Did Naruto not use a 1 handed rasengan against Kabuto after he allowed himself to be stabbed. Also Naruto was impaled how many times by the black rods, and giving his SM sensing abilities it isn't that far fetched for Naruto to figure it out. Itachi on the other hand gets impaled and its GG.





> Let me make it simple for you.
> -Naruto knew how Nagato was controlling his bodies froma  distance via his chakra rods.
> -Naruto stabbed himself so *Nagato's chakra would go inside him linking him to Nagato.*
> -Nagato made sure he was in sage mode so he could sense Nagato out within the confines of Nature.
> ...


Exactly.

Look at the bold...Itachi isn't able to do none of those.


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## Dr. White (Sep 27, 2014)

> IchLiebe said:
> 
> 
> > And standing behind something isn't going to help him. Hell I can be in my bathroom taking a shit and still hear jets and helicopters flying over, cause of the properties of sound which you seem to not be able to grasp.Exactly. BUt you don't seem to understand this. IF Nagato is living through preta, why wasn't he caught with Frog Song, especially given that Nagato hears what they hear. Nagato can hear and see everything the paths do, that is how is able to fight so easily with them.
> ...


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## Pocalypse (Sep 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I have claimed several times that the sage chakra turned him into a frog. What you aren't understanding is that he seals it into his body, there is no point where the chakra he absorbs even touches the rods, to be able to get sent to the other paths.
> 
> There is a connection in vision between the paths which is what Itachi can take advantage of possibly with his genjutsu. This connection is through the rods.



The rods hand out the chakra to the Pain bodies. So when Preta path absorbed the sage chakra, this in turned changed his chakra into that of the sage chakra and turned it into stone. Shared vision doesn’t mean the Pain bodies are connected and linked together through chakra, I don’t even know why you think this because I already have explained it multiple times, and again – the other bodies would have turned into stone as well as Nagato. Why do you keep insisting on making shared vision the odd one out when the bodies have shown to not be linked to each other through chakra? So no, Itachi can’t take advantage over anything.




> Sasuke just proved two chapters ago multiple opponents with a sharingan is possible with just a glance. There would be no reason to give the feat or a similar one to Itachi if not for the fact that two very knowledgable people from two different villages didn't hype to be able to genjutsu and control others outside of sensor range.



And yet he doesn’t have the feat, so what’s your point? You can’t use someone else’s feats and apply it to your character. Sasuke’s eyes currently >>>>>>>> Itachi’s by a longshot, Sasuke has a lot of factors to get that eye power to control multiple Bijuu at once, not just fodders. Going by your logic Itachi can throw Enton arrows, make a blob of Enton etc just because Sasuke did it.




> There are too many factors that play into it. There was considerable distance between Animal and Jiraiya when he first showed his face and he opened up with a suiton from his crustacean.
> 
> Once again I never claimed this would 100% happen but it is plausible based on what we know about genjutsu and Pain.



Still doesn’t make any sense. You seem to think that one glance in one body is a sure fire way to one-shot Pain and Nagato. Guess what? He only has to deal with Animal realm here, he can Amaterasu animal path and then Genjutsu the body, by your logic, no?. In this thread you went from high difficulty to something lower than low difficulty because you can’t handle things when it doesn’t go your way which makes be believe you are flip flopping.


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## Dr. White (Sep 27, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> The rods hand out the chakra to the Pain bodies. So when Preta path absorbed the sage chakra, this in turned changed his chakra into that of the sage chakra and turned it into stone.


This is the last time I'm gonna explain it.
-Nagato uses chakra rods to control his bodies and transmit the Rinnengan. Same thing with Obito. 
-Preta path doesn't transmite chakra he absorbs because that isn't apart of the chakra rod network. That is that bodies sole ability to seal jutsu and chakra inside of it's own body. This is why none of the other bodies get chakra from Jiraiya's Sage mode Rasengan, and why they didn't get chakra from is Molten Swamp. When Preta absorbed Sage chakra he had no experience in balancing it therefore this lead to him turning to stone.
-The receivers had nothing to do with that interaction. Sage Naruto was not manipulating what his sage chakra did, he simply gathered it and beat Preta as an indirect effect. When Itachi genjutsu's he is actively using chakra control to manipulate a pre existing source of chakra.



> Shared vision doesn?t mean the Pain bodies are connected and linked together through chakra, I don?t even know why you think this because I already have explained it multiple times, and again ? the other bodies would have turned into stone as well as Nagato.


As I explained above you are simply committing an equivocation fallacy as the mechanics of what happens when Itachi uses genjutsu are different from what happened in that scene.

Before I go into my next point, what is the only way a ninja can perform sucha  feat of giving inanimate bodies his rinnengan/conscioussness? Is it it not chakra that rules over all supernatural ability in this manga?
-They are obviously shared by Chakra. Nagato is controlling them. they all have Rinnengan (which requires chakra). When Nagato over uses the paths he loses chakra. Nagato stated several times it takes immense amount of chakra to control them (hence him having to be in in that crazy contraption with all the rods). when Deva stabbed his rod into Kakashi, Kakashi's chakra got disrupted because Pein's chakra sunk into him and Kakashi saw Rinnengan eyes.

Do you not see the common denominator?



> Why do you keep insisting on making shared vision the odd one out when the bodies have shown to not be linked to each other through chakra? So no, Itachi can?t take advantage over anything.


Because the rods are responsible for transmitting the rinnengan which links their vision. Hence why even Animals summons, and Naraka's Gate can be used for shared vision (what jammed inside each of those things? Rods)





> And yet he doesn?t have the feat, so what?s your point? You can?t use someone else?s feats and apply it to your character.


-I already pre-empted this point, you can when the person is a top tier genjutsu user, who already has *hype for taking control of multiple opponents outside of sensor range from 2 different village officials*



> Sasuke?s eyes currently >>>>>>>> Itachi?s by a longshot, Sasuke has a lot of factors to get that eye power to control multiple Bijuu at once, not just fodders. Going by your logic Itachi can throw Enton arrows, make a blob of Enton etc just because Sasuke did it.


No because you aren't understanding what I am saying. Yeah Itachi can't take control of 9 Bjuu that isn't what I am arguing. I am arguing that it's possible to use sharingan genjutsu to capture multiple people with a glance. (Note the bjuu where in a circle around Sasuke).






> Still doesn?t make any sense. You seem to think that one glance in one body is a sure fire way to one-shot Pain and Nagato. Guess what? He only has to deal with Animal realm here, he can Amaterasu animal path and then Genjutsu the body, by your logic, no?. In this thread you went from high difficulty to something lower than low difficulty because you can?t handle things when it doesn?t go your way which makes be believe you are flip flopping.


-Konan is going to give Itachi a decent amount of difficulty which I took into consideration, and pending that and how Animal decides to come at Itachi it may be a while before he gets in Animal realms range at that point in which the other paths might be out.

The problem is you want to see everybody who thinks Itachi wins, is an Itachi wanker, and you make these strawman arguments, and assumptions about my intentions without fully reading what the hell I say. At no point did I claim he can just walk up to Animal glance at him and walk away. I'm saying when taking into account arsenals, and abilities Itachi is a good counter to the bodies. Especially if he doesn't have to face all 6 at once.


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## Pocalypse (Sep 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> This is the last time I'm gonna explain it.
> -Nagato uses chakra rods to control his bodies and transmit the Rinnengan. Same thing with Obito.
> -Preta path doesn't transmite chakra he absorbs because that isn't apart of the chakra rod network. That is that bodies sole ability to seal jutsu and chakra inside of it's own body. This is why none of the other bodies get chakra from Jiraiya's Sage mode Rasengan, and why they didn't get chakra from is Molten Swamp. When Preta absorbed Sage chakra he had no experience in balancing it therefore this lead to him turning to stone.
> -The receivers had nothing to do with that interaction. Sage Naruto was not manipulating what his sage chakra did, he simply gathered it and beat Preta as an indirect effect. When Itachi genjutsu's he is actively using chakra control to manipulate a pre existing source of chakra.



Preta Path doesn?t transmit chakra so how can you say what Itachi will do will somehow transmit his Genjutsu effects across the chakra network if Preta Path doesn?t transmit anything? Itachi can manipulate that one body?s chakra only, if it doesn?t transmit it then his Genjutsu effects isn?t going to spread out like a virus. This is why the Sage chakra example is the same because Preta Path didn?t have any control in controlling the Sage Chakra so this shouldn?t have stopped the body from transmitting and leaking the Sage Chakra out to the other bodies. So the Sage Chakra and turning into a stone only stops there, and the same can be applied to Itachi?s Genjutsu. 



> As I explained above you are simply committing an equivocation fallacy as the mechanics of what happens when Itachi uses genjutsu are different from what happened in that scene.
> 
> Before I go into my next point, what is the only way a ninja can perform sucha  feat of giving inanimate bodies his rinnengan/conscioussness? Is it it not chakra that rules over all supernatural ability in this manga?
> -They are obviously shared by Chakra. Nagato is controlling them. they all have Rinnengan (which requires chakra). When Nagato over uses the paths he loses chakra. Nagato stated several times it takes immense amount of chakra to control them (hence him having to be in in that crazy contraption with all the rods). when Deva stabbed his rod into Kakashi, Kakashi's chakra got disrupted because Pein's chakra sunk into him and Kakashi saw Rinnengan eyes.
> ...



Yes Nagato shares his chakra through the bodies but does that mean that if something happens to one body, this will in turn affect the other bodies? You think if one chakra network in one body gets disrupted, the other bodies will as well because somehow they are linked to each other through chakra, and this logically will affect Nagato as well. This is flat out wrong, it doesn?t work like that because of the Preta path and Sage chakra example. You do know Preta Path?s chakra turns into stone, right? The body has to have chakra in there to be manipulated by the sage chakra otherwise the point is moot. If the bodies were connected through chakra to each other then again, they would have all experienced the same fate.



> Because the rods are responsible for transmitting the rinnengan which links their vision. Hence why even Animals summons, and Naraka's Gate can be used for shared vision (what jammed inside each of those things? Rods)



The 6 pain bodies are not linked to each other by chakra, so if one body goes down, the others are active also because only one channel has gone down, not the rest of the TV package. Why do you think when one Path is defeated, the rest remain active as well? The chakra is shut down in one path but this doesn?t mean it will shut down the rest of the bodies.



> -I already pre-empted this point, you can when the person is a top tier genjutsu user, who already has *hype for taking control of multiple opponents outside of sensor range from 2 different village officials*



Is two different village officials supposed to mean something to me? Has it been shown that he can accomplish this feat? How reliable is their evidence? 



> No because you aren't understanding what I am saying. Yeah Itachi can't take control of 9 Bjuu that isn't what I am arguing. I am arguing that it's possible to use sharingan genjutsu to capture multiple people with a glance. (Note the bjuu where in a circle around Sasuke).



You can?t apply someone?s else?s Sharingan feat to other Sharingan users, that doesn?t make sense at all. What Sasuke did was through his Sharinnegan eye bestowed by the RS?s power, not through a normal Sharingan, MS Sharingan or EMS Sharingan. Not even though the Rin?negan. It was his Sharinnegan eye which was used specifically to control the Bijuu and the multiple targets. 



> -Konan is going to give Itachi a decent amount of difficulty which I took into consideration, and pending that and how Animal decides to come at Itachi it may be a while before he gets in Animal realms range at that point in which the other paths might be out.
> 
> The problem is you want to see everybody who thinks Itachi wins, is an Itachi wanker, and you make these strawman arguments, and assumptions about my intentions without fully reading what the hell I say. At no point did I claim he can just walk up to Animal glance at him and walk away. I'm saying when taking into account arsenals, and abilities Itachi is a good counter to the bodies. Especially if he doesn't have to face all 6 at once.



Didn?t you just say a few pages ago that Itachi shits on Animal realm and that he should have no difficulty in fighting the path? Now all of a sudden it depends on how Animal Realm decides to come at Itachi? Lol. How else is he going to come at Itachi? He?s going to spam summons of course. 

And no, I support Itachi in a lot of threads and have done in quiet a few match-ups. I even said Itachi does better than Jiraiya here but I also took the opponent?s level into consideration as well and didn?t make it sound as a one-shot technique that Itachi is going to implement to defeat Pain. I mentioned other ways where he can handle himself like he can see the Rin?negans blind spots, he has Susano?o to defend himself if all 6 try and stab him because in this scenario, they would since they did it with Jiraiya, he has Amaterasu to deal with summons etc but your logic on staring at one body and this in turn affecting other bodies isn?t going to cut it, sorry. In fanfiction.net, it might.


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## Dr. White (Sep 27, 2014)

We're gonna have to agree to disagree because right now you aren't comprehending what I am trying to get to you.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> > No you have to hear the concentrated sound, hence why Ma and Pa have to prep to make sure they hit the right notes. I don't know why you're comparing vocal chords from small frogs with Jet planes, and we don't know where the paths are, so it is highly likely they didn't hear the sound. Nagato wasn't their for the sound to directly reach his mind, unlike with visual genjutsu.
> 
> 
> Never was it stated in the manga that you must hear concentrated sound...just sound. If you hear the notes of frog song, no matter how far away it is or through another way, you will be caught in it. But yet Nagato wasn't.
> ...


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## Trojan (Sep 27, 2014)

Itachi's Genjutsus are useless against a far superior eyes. U_U


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## JuicyG (Sep 27, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Itachi's Genjutsus are useless against a far superior eyes. U_U




Agreed. It doesn't happen


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## IchLiebe (Sep 27, 2014)

Not useless, just redundant.


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