# Itachi vs Kaguya (Serious Thread)



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Serious Thread is Serious !

Distance: 20 meters
Location: Open Field
Intel: Full for Itachi none for Kaguya
Restriction: None







*What's stopping Itachi from Genjutsu GG here  ?

I'm interested in the Itachi fanboy comments ? *


----------



## Ghost (Sep 25, 2014)

Itachi mid diff if he plays it cautious.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Itachi mid diff if he plays it cautious.




Exactly what I'm talking about.

Impossible to debate a bias debater, indeed.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 25, 2014)

Knowing how Kishimoto views Itachi, it wouldn't surprise me if his support against Kaguya proved to be unrivaled.

Itachi obviously can't defeat Kaguya on his own, but he truly shines in exploiting peoples' weaknesses.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Knowing how Kishimoto views Itachi, it wouldn't surprise me if his support against Kaguya proved to be unrivaled.
> 
> Itachi obviously can't defeat Kaguya on his own, but he truly shines in exploiting peoples' weaknesses.




But why doesnt Itachi solo Kaguya here with a genjutsu ?

Your answers will be valuable for future debates about Itachi


----------



## Ruse (Sep 25, 2014)

The Itachi wank has really gotten to you huh?


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> The Itachi wank has really gotten to you huh?




It has...sadly. I love to debate rationally, but there are so many Itachi wankers it's become unbearable.

So my question still remains. Why can't Itachi solo Kaguya with a genjutsu like he does everyone else ?


----------



## Ghost (Sep 25, 2014)

I just said. Itachi takes it mid diff.


----------



## CatnipAvenger (Sep 25, 2014)

Why would Sexy Rabbit be affected by genjutsu? "The most powerful being in existence, survived countless battles, lost to an illusion." Kaguya's headstone.

I was under the impression she was immune to illusion.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

saikyou said:


> I just said. Itachi takes it mid diff.




Ok.

So you are also explicitly stating that Itachi > Hashirama also due to genjutsu correct?


I hope everyone is reading this thus knowing not to take you serious anymore


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 25, 2014)

Why?  She has anti-genjutsu eyes several evolutions above Itachi's, and the Infinite Global version of Itachi's best genjutsu.  Which she can maintain while attempting to delete the world.  

It's unlikely that Totsuga would even work at sealing her, because the only sealing jutsu deemed strong enough to hold her by the Sage of 6 Paths himself was a moon sized chibaku tensei fuin, empowered by the chakra of two gods.  It doesn't even seem like she's capable of dying, so standard killing is off the table.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Why?  She has anti-genjutsu eyes several evolutions above Itachi's, and the Infinite Global version of Itachi's best genjutsu.  Which she can maintain while attempting to delete the world.
> 
> It's unlikely that Totsuga would even work at sealing her, because the only sealing jutsu deemed strong enough to hold her by the Sage of 6 Paths himself was a moon sized chibaku tensei fuin, empowered by the chakra of two gods.  It doesn't even seem like she's capable of dying, so standard killing is off the table.




When was it stated that her eyes were 'anti-genjustu'  ?

Also as grimmjowsensi stated in a thread about Itachi vs Pain, that Itachi can genjutsu one path and the rest all fall under it as well. But the rinne is 2 steps above the MS, yet apparently to Itachi wankers eye evolution doesnt matter...


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> But why doesnt Itachi solo Kaguya here with a genjutsu ?
> 
> Your answers will be valuable for future debates about Itachi



Mainly because high-level shinobi aren't generally soloed by illusions...
I do believe Izanami and Kotoamatsukami are exceptions; however, either technique has limits with Itachi or anyone. Whether he gets KA or not is controversial, while Izanami is merely circumstantial. Tsukuyomi, on the other hand, likely wouldn't be helpful against someone who had used Mugen Tsukuyomi in the past. Kaguya also has Sharinnegan and Byakugan (Doujutsu x3), so it's difficult to see that genjutsu being of any use. The legendary weapons can be construed as trump cards, though  he'd need major support to pull something off with Totsuka.

And yes, I do think Totsuka no Tsurugi is extremely broken and possibly the strongest out of all sealing techniques we've seen. Kaguya's will, of all people, hyped the sword as "legendary" and capable of making fighters invincible (along with Yata no Kagami).


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Mainly because high-level shinobi aren't generally soloed by illusions...




You said it yourself.

High level, top notch shinobi don't simply lose to genjutsu, illusions.

So explain to me why does every Itachi fan resort to genjutsu GG even when debating about Minato, Tobirama, Nagato/Pain ...? Is it because they are just wanking or really believe this ?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> When was it stated that her eyes were 'anti-genjustu'  ?
> 
> Also as grimmjowsensi stated in a thread about Itachi vs Pain, that Itachi can genjutsu one path and the rest all fall under it as well. But the rinne is 2 steps above the MS, yet apparently to Itachi wankers eye evolution doesnt matter...



Way back in part I when the sharingan was introduced as being able to see through illusions.

The rinnegan by itself has an exceptionally poor track record seeing through anything.  Fooled by smoke bombs and henge and dirt clouds and stuff.  It's illogical and sad.

Kaguya has the Rinnesharingan, which is a sharingan and a rinnegan.  At the same time.  To compliment her pretty pretty byakugan.  It's stated that the sharingan is her most fearsome doujutsu, and the one she uses to cast infinite Tsukiyomi on the pages where they introduce her in the flashback.

Please don't be angry and silly.  Some people on a forum are going to be stubborn and silly, but please don't let that prevent you from being an upstanding individual and honest debater.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

Itachi fills her 3rd eye by curving the trajectory of his Kunais. 

Flawless victory 


edit : Also OP is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). Don't think anyone can be this dumb. He hates a character so bad that he tries to make stupid threads about him ? Oh god


----------



## Ghost (Sep 25, 2014)

Itachi throws his kunais in to the orbit and when Kaguya least expects it the back of her head is filled with kunais.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> You said it yourself.
> 
> High level, top notch shinobi don't simply lose to genjutsu, illusions.
> 
> So explain to me why does every Itachi fan resort to genjutsu GG even when debating about Minato, Tobirama, Nagato/Pain ...? Is it because they are just wanking or really believe this ?



High level people tend not to lose just to illusions.  However, it does happen (P1 Kakashi to Tsukiyomi), and it does make a difference even (Danzo was tricked into seeing his eye still open with Sasuke's genjutsu), and to my knowledge, Itachi hasn't had one fight where he hasn't landed a genjutsu.  So in the grand scheme of a fight, Itachi has a better than average chance to land a genjutsu, and it will probably have an impact on the fight.  Particularly against the Jiraiya line of ninja, which are typically weak against genjutsu.

When if comes to people like Base Minato, Tsukiyomi is one of the only things an Itachi supporter can argue will put him down, so it gets reached for.  But most people agree that making solid eye contact with Minato, who even without knowledge has intel enough on Uchih to know you don't look in their eyes, and flickers around willy nilly, probably won't be caught by it many times out of ten, and any other genjutsu he can kai out of.  Bijuu Minato gets partner breaks, so it's largely irrelevant, and SM Minato uses his 5 seconds of charge to murder Itachi omega fast. . . since nearly everyone agreed it's a hard fight for Itachi to win regardless of which side of the isle they're on, and any non-significant boost to Minato makes it nearly impossible.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> You said it yourself.
> 
> High level, top notch shinobi don't simply lose to genjutsu, illusions.
> 
> So explain to me why does every Itachi fan resort to genjutsu GG even when debating about Minato, Tobirama, Nagato/Pain ...? Is it because they are just wanking or really believe this ?



Don't get me wrong... If Tsukuyomi connects with Itachi's opponent, it can kill nearly anyone that doesn't have doujutsu or top-tier healing. Even Kakashi mentioned how Itachi could have killed him, and he's extremely skilled in the use of Sharingan. High-caliber fighters usually have preventative measures, though, so it's only plausible to see Itachi soloing in that fashion with little knowledge between the group. Pein Rikudou, on the other hand, isn't the same as typical humans; it's a technique with linked vision. Even though they are dead bodies with chakra rods, they're still susceptible to illusions, and it isn't such a stretch to think the group would share the same experiences - assuming one had been caught in Tsukuyomi - which would solo Paths in one move.

I've already commented on Nagato in the past. Personally, I think Tsukuyomi would fuck him up, but it's neither here nor there; he's got mad skill in the sensory field and can fight through his Paths and summons, even if they get taken down via illusions or Mangekyou Sharingan. When that event occurs, he can pull out stuff like CST/CT to exhaust Itachi's chakra reserves. But none of the fighters you'd mentioned are stomping Itachi, except Kaguya.

Itachi has equal chances of winning in every one of the fights, though Nagato himself (not bodies) wins more often than not with high difficulty.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Way back in part I when the sharingan was introduced as being able to see through illusions.
> 
> The rinnegan by itself has an exceptionally poor track record seeing through anything.  Fooled by smoke bombs and henge and dirt clouds and stuff.  It's illogical and sad.
> 
> ...




I like you. You aren't one of them....




Grimmjowsensei said:


> edit : Also OP is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). Don't think anyone can be this dumb. He hates a character so bad that he tries to make stupid threads about him ? Oh god




I don't hate Itachi. In fact I respect him enough as a character as to not lie about his talents and abilities as you and other do on daily basis. You can not sit here and tell me that you are not extremely bias for Itachi. In fact you are so one-sided about Itachi that no one can logically debate you about said character. 

I made this thread because apparently EVERYONE gets genjutsu'd GG by Itachi. And I wanted to know what is stopping Itachi from beating Kaguya alone, or Hashirama alone ? I am being logical, you sir are not


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Don't get me wrong... If Tsukuyomi connects with Itachi's opponent, it can kill nearly anyone that doesn't have doujutsu or top-tier healing. Even Kakashi mentioned how Itachi could have killed him, and he's extremely skilled in the use of Sharingan. High-caliber fighters usually have preventative measures, though, so it's only plausible to see Itachi soloing in that fashion with little knowledge between the group. Pein Rikudou, on the other hand, isn't the same as typical humans; it's a technique with linked vision. Even though they are dead bodies with chakra rods, they're still susceptible to illusions, and it isn't such a stretch to think the group would share the same experiences - assuming one had been caught in Tsukuyomi - which would solo Paths in one move.
> 
> I've already commented on Nagato in the past. Personally, I think Tsukuyomi would fuck him up, but it's neither here nor there; he's got mad skill in the sensory field and can fight through his Paths and summons, even if they get taken down via illusions or Mangekyou Sharingan. When that event occurs, he can pull out stuff like CST/CT to exhaust Itachi's chakra reserves. But none of the fighters you'd mentioned are stomping Itachi, except Kaguya.
> 
> Itachi has equal chances of winning in every one of the fights, though Nagato himself (not bodies) wins more often than not with high difficulty.




Ok then do me a favor and list characters that will beat Itachi more often than not...

Itachi is a high-kage level shinobi, and no higher unless in edo form. He is not a top tier, god tier, transcendent tier. He is there for a reason and that reason is because his genjutsu gets avoided by anyone at his tier level and above.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Ok then do me a favor and list characters that will beat Itachi more often than not...
> 
> Itachi is a high-kage level shinobi, and no higher unless in edo form. He is not a top tier, god tier, transcendent tier. He is there for a reason and that reason is because his genjutsu gets avoided by anyone at his tier level and above.



Living Itachi or Edo Itachi? There's a big difference.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Living Itachi or Edo Itachi? There's a big difference.




I agree that Edo Itachi is a monster, better than the Gokage & potentially alive mobile Nagato.

But I'm speaking about Alive sick Itachi that were used to seeing. He doesnt solo any top tiers or above.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 25, 2014)

No incarnation of Itachi can push a Top Tier past mid-dif.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I don't hate Itachi. In fact I respect him enough as a character as to not lie about his talents and abilities as you and other do on daily basis. You can not sit here and tell me that you are not extremely bias for Itachi. In fact you are so one-sided about Itachi that no one can logically debate you about said character.



None can logically debate you about anything. At least it is only Itachi for me 



> I made this thread because apparently EVERYONE gets genjutsu'd GG by Itachi. And I wanted to know what is stopping Itachi from beating Kaguya alone, or Hashirama alone ? I am being logical, you sir are not



Sorry, but if thats your reasoning, either you are a dumb adult or a spoiled 6 year old.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 25, 2014)

> So explain to me why does every Itachi fan resort to genjutsu GG even when debating about Minato, Tobirama, Nagato/Pain ...? Is it because they are just wanking or really believe this ?



Should also mention, Minato often lacked feats for most of the manga, but everyone put him on a level that was above them.  Minato was greater than all the previous kage, including the god of shinobi, who was the greatest kage of all the kage in all the lands, with the kage being the greatest ninja in their respective villages.  A genius seen only once every 1000 years or so.  Mad hype, lacking feats.  Though almost all of the feats Minato had until this war were perfect feats, where he did 20 things at once and made everyone look like infants.  The argument for a large portion of Minato fans, in absence of showings, has generally always be "hiraishin GG."  Which, really, is how most of his fights go...

Itachi was given similar, though more tangible regard.  He slayed all of the Uchiha single handedly, and had their most powerful doujutsu, putting him on a level above the ninja clan that was hyped to be the clan among clans.  He's looked good in every fight, he took pity on a perfect sage, he challenged a Rinnegan wielder with shuriken, and Kishi had to invent a disease for Sasuke to believably win a fight.  He even gets praise and hype post death just for hell of it.  So narratively speaking, lots of people are going to think he's amazing, and that he'll win whatever fight comes his way.  He also has one of the best genjutsus, one of the best ninjutsu, one of the best defences, and one of the best sealing techniques, and they all have good to excellent feats.  Combined with speed and precog.  So it's really easy to point to one of those 4 jutsu, and say he uses tge ninjutsu, genjutsu, Susano, or totsuga needed to win, when he needs to win, and then point to his reflexes.  It's become the go-to method for arguing Itachi for ages, and the question for Itachi through the years has always been how he uses his (largly) 4 note arsenal to deal with whatever new enemy or powered up ninja or kage comes to light.  It didn't start to die until Kakashi got lolkamui, and it became the new king of the boring one note argument. (that also soloed Itachi)

Matching the Ace against Mr. Perfect always results in split opinions, because they both fill the role of, "The Best."  Just in different eras, and in different ways, and they were separated enough to never get a direct comparison of them.  So, debate happens, with each group using their preferred style.  Though there are excellent posters who don't fall into those categories that argue for different sides, most of them don't, or rarely post anymore.  Those that do might find such over played threads too boring to post in, so you'll probably get more X Jutsu GG than anything else.  This is just based on the KC's cycles.  I don't know specifically what threads you're talking about, and I mean no offence to any of the posters within them, nor to imply that I feel them inadequate at discussion.   I also can't read minds, so I don't know who's serious and who's joking or why.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I agree that Edo Itachi is a monster, better than the Gokage & potentially alive mobile Nagato.
> 
> But I'm speaking about Alive sick Itachi that were used to seeing. He doesnt solo any top tiers or above.



These characters are the only people who I can see defeating Itachi (living) more often than not or even 100% of the time. If we're talking about Edo Itachi, I'd remove KCM Naruto/EMS Sasuke/Edo Minato/Edo Tobirama from the list. Possibly Bijuu Mode Naruto, too, who I think is vastly overrated on this forum. Though, I do think he's portrayed to defeat Edo Itachi more often than not, but it is closer than people think. 

*Capable of defeating Itachi (living) more often than not:*
Hagoromo and his mother/children
Juubi
All forms of Madara
All forms of Hashirama
Obito (Rinnegan and above)
Naruto (KCM and above)
Sasuke (EMS and above)
Kakashi (Rikudou only)
Current Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei
Kabuto w/ Edo Tensei
Shisui w/ Kotoamatsukami
Danzou w/ Kotoamatsukami
Gai (8 Gates)
Nagato (Mobile)
Edo Minato
Edo Tobirama


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sorry, but if thats your reasoning, either you are a dumb adult or a spoiled 6 year old.



Your lack of ability to explain your "Itachi solo's" mindset against any top tier is more child like than anything I've seen myself.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Should also mention, Minato often lacked feats for most of the manga, but everyone put him on a level that was above them.  Minato was greater than all the previous kage, including the god of shinobi, who was the greatest kage of all the kage in all the lands, with the kage being the greatest ninja in their respective villages.  A genius seen only once every 1000 years or so.  Mad hype, lacking feats.  Though almost all of the feats Minato had until this war were perfect feats, where he did 20 things at once and made everyone look like infants.  The argument for a large portion of Minato fans, in absence of showings, has generally always be "hiraishin GG."  Which, really, is how most of his fights go...
> 
> Itachi was given similar, though more tangible regard.  He slayed all of the Uchiha single handedly, and had their most powerful doujutsu, putting him on a level above the ninja clan that was hyped to be the clan among clans.  He's looked good in every fight, he took pity on a perfect sage, he challenged a Rinnegan wielder with shuriken, and Kishi had to invent a disease for Sasuke to believably win a fight.  He even gets praise and hype post death just for hell of it.  So narratively speaking, lots of people are going to think he's amazing, and that he'll win whatever fight comes his way.  He also has one of the best genjutsus, one of the best ninjutsu, one of the best defences, and one of the best sealing techniques, and they all have good to excellent feats.  Combined with speed and precog.  So it's really easy to point to one of those 4 jutsu, and say he uses tge ninjutsu, genjutsu, Susano, or totsuga needed to win, when he needs to win, and then point to his reflexes.  It's become the go-to method for arguing Itachi for ages, and the question for Itachi through the years has always been how he uses his (largly) 4 note arsenal to deal with whatever new enemy or powered up ninja or kage comes to light.  It didn't start to die until Kakashi got lolkamui, and it became the new king of the boring one note argument. (that also soloed Itachi)
> 
> Matching the Ace against Mr. Perfect always results in split opinions, because they both fill the role of, "The Best."  Just in different eras, and in different ways, and they were separated enough to never get a direct comparison of them.  So, debate happens, with each group using their preferred style.  Though there are excellent posters who don't fall into those categories that argue for different sides, most of them don't, or rarely post anymore.  Those that do might find such over played threads too boring to post in, so you'll probably get more X Jutsu GG than anything else.  This is just based on the KC's cycles.  I don't know specifically what threads you're talking about, and I mean no offence to any of the posters within them, nor to imply that I feel them inadequate at discussion.   I also can't read minds, so I don't know who's serious and who's joking or why.





100% agree.

I myself think that if Kishi paired the 2 in a dual (both living) that Minato would come on top, just slightly. But thats my opinion. Now if someone were to argue the opposite I couldn't disagree hardly either because its very possible for Itachi to beat Minato. But when said people say that Itachi wins via genjutsu GG scenario, thats when I find it distasteful to say that Itachi can so lightly beat someone like Minato, Tobirama Nagato. 

Rather than debating, genjustu GG or Ama GG has been the way to make Itachi win. Against Raikage, Sasuke shot a Kage with Ama, yet he didnt just die down and lose did he ? No, and neither will any other high-kage, top tier and above character. It just isn't happening.

I still believe : Minato>=Tobirama>=Itachi ( Very close ) But again you can debate otherwise


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> But why doesnt Itachi solo Kaguya here with a genjutsu ?
> 
> Your answers will be valuable for future debates about Itachi



seeing as Kaguya has the original sharingan, the ability to use her sharingan through her byakugan for maximize range, and god level chakra/jutsu use, it's safe to say Itachi's genjutsu won't work.

This thread is pointless because Itachi's genjutsu being futile here only applies to those who have similar systems of beating his genjutsu that Kaguya does.

Go home JuciyG.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 25, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> This thread is pointless because Itachi's genjutsu being futile here only applies to those who have similar systems of beating his genjutsu that Kaguya does.



So Itachi solo's Hashirama though right ?



Dr. White said:


> *Go home JuciyG*.



I am home.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> So Itachi solo's Hashirama though right ?





[/QUOTE]
No? A no knowledge fight is the only one Itachi can win via Koto Amatsuki or Tsukuyomi. 

But Hashirama generally in 9/10 situations rapes Itachi.


----------

