# Prime Rayleigh vs Kaido



## YonkoDrippy (Jun 16, 2021)

Who wins?


VS


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## Pirao (Jun 16, 2021)

Rayleigh~Shanks, and I've got Shanks above Kaido, so...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Jun 16, 2021)

Kaido high diff.
The downplay to Kaido is ridiculous.

Reactions: Agree 10 | Winner 1 | Friendly 1 | Neutral 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Eustathios (Jun 16, 2021)

I have Rayleigh slightly above old Whitebeard (when Ace first joined). He should win, around high diff.

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheWiggian (Jun 16, 2021)

Ray high (low-mid) diff. Good fight but the Dark King will take it with superior haki mastery in all shades and prime stats.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Kroczilla (Jun 16, 2021)

Kaido takes this. Lol at Rayleigh having superior haki mastery.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Jun 16, 2021)

Pirao said:


> Rayleigh~Shanks, and I've got Shanks above Kaido, so...


Nothing proves Shanks is above Kaido tho

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Grinningfox (Jun 16, 2021)

Kaido 

We got a list of pirates from that gen who could beat Kaido and Rayleigh wasn’t on it .

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 4 | Lewd 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Eustathios (Jun 16, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> Kaido
> 
> We got a list of pirates from that gen who could beat Kaido and Rayleigh wasn’t on it .


Neither was Shiki, who was grouped with Roger and Whitebeard. Kaido's list is exclusively tied to his personal experiences. Otherwise we would have at least seen Garp there too.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## Kroczilla (Jun 16, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Neither was Shiki, who was grouped with Roger and Whitebeard. Kaido's list is exclusively tied to his personal experiences. Otherwise we would have at least seen Garp there too.


??????

Kaido has had the same level of personal experience with Roger has he had with Garp given that they both brought down Rocks. Its more likely that his list was inclusive of pirates only.


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## Perrin (Jun 16, 2021)

Depends on both characters state of mind. If kaido begins fight miserable and suicidal then can see his dreams being fulfilled and rayleigh wins, if he’s just found a fiver or had some quality father daughter time and he’s feeling like a good dad and his heads in a good place then i think kaido wins.
Meanwhile Rayleigh always seems cheerful zen.


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## Eustathios (Jun 16, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> ??????
> 
> Kaido has had the same level of personal experience with Roger has he had with Garp given that they both brought down Rocks.


Good point. Means we can't accurately scale people based on his "tier list".


Kroczilla said:


> Its more likely that his list was inclusive of pirates only.


Shiki would have had to be there. Big Mom as well. His list is simply inconsistent.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Jun 16, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Who wins?
> 
> 
> VS


Kaido.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## ShadoLord (Jun 16, 2021)

Rayleigh high-diff

He's a step above from the current generation.

Reactions: Like 4 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Corax (Jun 16, 2021)

Ray was Roger's partner. Ray around extreme.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mihawk (Jun 16, 2021)

Rayleigh wins.

Guys think Prime Ray really isnt gonna fuck up Kaido worse than Oden.

Reactions: Like 7 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Red Admiral (Jun 16, 2021)

*I'm massively disappointed in fanverse* ... I'm keep seeing thing which are laughable on a real one piece fandom

people are really overwanking last gen and act as of Roger is on whole other level compare to Yonko

*you know why last gen is over wank?
cause we ONLY hear about legendary moments of last gen
while surly if we followed them in real time we could see many bad moments as well ... that's just life *

oh and also cause Zoro wankers want to wank Dark King just because ...

even if you don't believe Kaido is truly WSC ...
his actions brought him enough fame that world named him WSC even when WB was still WSM

Dark King might be even more famous than Whitebeard and Garp
every single man and woman on entire world know his name
his name was mentioned in many books
and he surly been part of countless fight

but no one ever consider him powerful enough for titles like WSC

Kaido from 20 years ago was comparable to Oden
and Oden as right hand man of Whitebeard is comparable to Dark King

*so it's only logical if Kaido be stronger ... *

p.s

@Daisuke Jigen if you have any debate come closer ... I won't make you cry this time, I "promise"
I'm sick of losers like you who keep giving other bad rating and confuse that with actually having an argument

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 2 | Tier Specialist 5


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## Karma (Jun 16, 2021)

Rayleigh extreme dif


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## Van Basten (Jun 16, 2021)

Prime Rayleigh extreme diff (mid to high end.)

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ren. (Jun 16, 2021)

Red Admiral said:


> *I'm massively disappointed in fanverse*


Don't confuse the OL with the OP fanverse.

Here Zoro won the popularity contest with like x2 more votes than Luffy.

in RL Luffy always wins.

Here we have pure negativity about OP each week 
etc.


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## Peppoko (Jun 16, 2021)

The poll seems to represent this matchup very well, should be a close match. Prime Rayleigh wins extreme-diff imo.


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## TheNirou (Jun 16, 2021)

Rayleigh high diff at worst, he is above any top tier and is considered as legend like WB. He is also the worst matchup to Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Canute87 (Jun 16, 2021)

"If it's one on one , don't bet against kaido." 

I'll choose Kaido.


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## Perrin (Jun 16, 2021)

Oooo, close polls.
I reckon Rayleigh can drink more _and_ fight more betterer.


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## LightningForce (Jun 16, 2021)

Peppoko said:


> The poll seems to represent this matchup very well, should be a close match. Prime Rayleigh wins extreme-diff imo.



Lmao imagine thinking OL popularity polls represent actual manga canon.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Perrin (Jun 16, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> "If it's one on one , don't bet against kaido."
> 
> I'll choose Kaido.


Rayleigh probably has a named blade though, so its kinda like 2v1


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## Mihawk (Jun 16, 2021)

Red Admiral said:


> *I'm massively disappointed in fanverse* ...



Same...but it always alarms me to see so many people who think the Rocks duo are the strongest characters in the series, when they're current arc villain threats and unlikely to be relevant final villains. They're being placed on an insane pedestal like they're already PK, which they are bound to fall short of. It's a circular logic that rotates around the current exposure they're getting, since they're poised to fall in this saga. Unless of course, you think Luffy is going to never win another battle in this manga.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## Perrin (Jun 16, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Lmao imagine thinking OL popularity polls represent actual manga canon.


One piece isnt a manga, its the friends u make in the forums along the way, i reckon many of the people have much more of an idea about how the manga should work compared to oda


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## Peppoko (Jun 16, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Lmao imagine thinking OL popularity polls represent actual manga canon.


Yes, that's exactly what I said... I definitely used the term "manga canon" in the post you quoted...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perrin (Jun 16, 2021)

Red Admiral said:


> *I'm massively disappointed in fanverse* ... I'm keep seeing thing which are laughable on a real one piece fandom
> 
> people are really overwanking last gen and act as of Roger is on whole other level compare to Yonko
> 
> ...


Get what ur saying Red, i really do, but i guess my main argument is thus.
Luffy and Zoro share some parallels with Roger and Rayleigh.
Luffy still seems a ways off PK level and im sure will have a few more powerups.
I am sure zoro will have a few more powerups too before he becomes WSS (i put rayleigh prime over mihawk). And at this point in the manga zoro looked good against kaido.
Therefore i reckon (and i never thought this before wano) that prime zoro will be comfortably above yonkou level, and so by proxy i reckon Rayleigh was.
But i may be completely wrong.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Mihawk (Jun 16, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Get what ur saying Red, i really do, but i guess my main argument is thus.
> Luffy and Zoro share some parallels with Roger and Rayleigh.
> Luffy still seems a ways off PK level and im sure will have a few more powerups.
> I am sure zoro will have a few more powerups too before he becomes WSS (i put rayleigh prime over mihawk). And at this point in the manga zoro looked good against kaido.
> ...



Good post Amigo. 

Oh wait 


> few more powerups too before he becomes WSS (i put rayleigh prime over mihawk

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Perrin (Jun 16, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Good post Amigo.
> 
> Oh wait


That guy has such outrageous sadness, what is this??

But yes, aha, my point of controversy pertaining to WSS<Rayleigh has some grounds.

In chapter early when zoro is tied to a stick in Morgans garden he tells luffy his dream, then luffy says something like: ‘WSS? Dawg, if you wanna hang with the PK you’ll need to be AT LEAST that strong.’ So i reckon Rayleigh was above it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Corax (Jun 16, 2021)

Ray very likely was WSS of his time since Mihawk was a kid and Oden clearly portrayed as his subordinate.


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## Pirao (Jun 16, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Same...but it always alarms me to see so many people who think the Rocks duo are the strongest characters in the series, when they're current arc villain threats and unlikely to be relevant final villains. They're being placed on an insane pedestal like they're already PK, which they are bound to fall short of. It's a circular logic that rotates around the current exposure they're getting, since they're poised to fall in this saga. Unless of course, you think Luffy is going to never win another battle in this manga.


Just like Mihawk downplay, Rayleigh downplay is mainly indirect Zoro downplay, true facts 

If you think EoS Zoro won't be above Kaido you're living in lalaland.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Duhul10 (Jun 16, 2021)

Kaido...
great difficulty, but Kaido...

Reactions: Agree 4 | Tier Specialist 2


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 16, 2021)

Very close I think prob kaido extreme diff but could go the other way

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Dead Precedence (Jun 16, 2021)

Pirao said:


> Just like Mihawk downplay, Rayleigh downplay is mainly indirect Zoro downplay, true facts
> 
> If you think EoS Zoro won't be above Kaido you're living in lalaland.


To be fair you can believe that Kaido > Mihawk & Rayleigh while still believing Zoro ends up being stronger than Kaido. Maybe Kaido extreme diffs those two, and Mihawk wouldn't end up being Zoro's final opponent. Perhaps the powerscaling completely goes to shit and Ryuma who Zoro is going to surpass is some PK level character , but either way I doubt most people that place Kaido above those two would place EoS Zoro>Kaido either lol.

Either way Ray no doubt, dude's a legend with portrayal that is only eclipsed by Roger, WB, and Garp.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (Jun 16, 2021)

Ray being Yonkou level is nuts to me

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## Dead Precedence (Jun 16, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> Ray being Yonkou level is nuts to me



Why? Roger isn't a Yonko but a step above them and achieved what they failed to do for decades. At least Big Mom and Kaido anyway, since WB didn't care about being Pirate King. Furthermore Ray isn't some "Yonko Commander" he's a First Mate, called partner by Roger, and is clearly special. Just like Garp isn't some Vice Admiral, hell even Admiral, and Mihawk isn't just some Warlord. People like to say oh it's cause Roger's crew that he achieved Pirate King and not just individual strength, well there's your answer. He's a part of the winning team and Ray is a big part of that, just like Benn being a big part of Shanks' crew being "impregnable" is a big reason why many believe he's the first "Yonko Commander" to finally be "Admiral level". There's no doubt that if Ray continued being a pirate after Roger's death and was captain of the crew, he'd have been one of the Yonko.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 3


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## LightningForce (Jun 16, 2021)

Peppoko said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I said... I definitely used the term "manga canon" in the post you quoted...



What else matters besides manga canon in a match up?

Kaido has greater portrayal (WSC, 1v1 bet on Kaido) and currently better feats than Prime Rayleigh whose current only feat is 2v1ing Oden with Scopper.



Corax said:


> Ray very likely was WSS of his time since Mihawk was a kid and *Oden clearly portrayed as his subordinate.*



Shit like this is why OL tier specialists are the laughingstock of the OP fandom.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## Perrin (Jun 16, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> *What else matters besides manga canon in a match up?*
> 
> Kaido has greater portrayal (WSC, 1v1 bet on Kaido) and currently better feats than *Prime Rayleigh whose current only feat is 2v1ing Oden with Scopper.*


Did this happen in the manga?


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## Kroczilla (Jun 16, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> Why? Roger isn't a Yonko but a step above them


Roger achieving his status as PK had as much to do with his good fortune/fate as it did his strength. Not saying Roger and WB weren't too dog in their days, but in terms of PL, they had their peers which would naturally include current Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Karma (Jun 16, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> Ray being Yonkou level is nuts to me


Rogers rival, Xebec, had a crew literally composed of Yonkos

Reactions: Agree 1


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## convict (Jun 16, 2021)

I have Rayleigh equal to Shanks so giving it to Kaido extreme difficulty with maybe a limb lost.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## LightningForce (Jun 16, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Did this happen in the manga?


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## Pirao (Jun 16, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Shit like this is why OL tier specialists are the laughingstock of the OP fandom.


Says the tier specialist who thinks Oden is stronger than Rayleigh

Reactions: Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Perrin (Jun 16, 2021)

So is Roger a combo attack from Rayleigh and Scopper, kinda like Ocean Sovereignty!

Reactions: Like 1


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## LightningForce (Jun 16, 2021)

Pirao said:


> Says the tier specialist who thinks Oden is stronger than Rayleigh



Where did I even say this you clown?  I'm just putting people back to reality instead of running away with the idea that Rayleigh was somehow Emperor level. A crew with two Emperor level fighters would never lose stalemate to the likes of an early WB crew or have to sneak around BM's territory.

As for who would be who's subordinate.



Oden was the leader with more charisma. People would follow him instead of Rayleigh.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 2


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## Pirao (Jun 16, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Where did I even say this you clown?


Right here, imbecile.


LightningForce said:


> How Oden is on Kaido’s tier list along with *real legends*, whereas Ray is nowhere to be found on there.


Any more BS you want to spew?

The only laughing stock there is around here, is you.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Mihawk (Jun 16, 2021)

I think the poll is on the right track.

This should be an extreme diff match either ways.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mihawk (Jun 16, 2021)

Trolls here seem to think Prime Ray was weaker than Old Ray

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Pirao (Jun 16, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Trolls here seem to think Prime Ray was weaker than Old Ray


Old Ray who hadn't fought in decades can stalemate an admiral but his prime self being Yonko level is crazy, apparently, These guys must be the reddit geniuses who think a Yonko can solo two admirals at the same, I'm figuring, that's why they say what they say

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Perrin (Jun 16, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Trolls here seem to think Prime Ray was weaker than Old Ray


Remember he retired and started working as a coating mechanics on big ol’ wooden Boats.
I believe it was Jyabura who was amazed by Lucci and Kaku’s gains after working on big ol’ wooden boats.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Dead Precedence (Jun 16, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Trolls here seem to think Prime Ray was weaker than Old Ray


All the drinking and partying rejuvenated him and healed up his wear and tear. He's a late bloomer for sure.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Friendly 1


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## Mihawk (Jun 16, 2021)

Old Ray= 25 years out of practice, stalemated Kizaru despite being rusty, CoC comparable to Shanks (one of the Yonko), basically showed himself to be the next best thing to an Admiral.

Prime Ray= 25 years younger, better in every imaginable stat, not on Kaido’s level

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 2 | Winner 1 | GODA 1


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## Ruse (Jun 16, 2021)

Idk why some of you are acting like this is a crazy match up especially with Zoro’s roof top performance

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (Jun 16, 2021)

Karma said:


> Rogers rival, Xebec, had a crew literally composed of Yonkos


*Pre-Yonkou 

Not one of them were Yonkou level when they served under Xebec

Kaido especially was just an apprentice


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## Karma (Jun 16, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> *Pre-Yonkou
> 
> Not one of them were Yonkou level when they served under Xebec
> 
> Kaido especially was just an apprentice


 

Roger is close in age to WB, BM and Shiki.

U think he miraculously stagnated in strength or smth?


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## oiety (Jun 16, 2021)

Prime Rayleigh extreme diffs.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Peppoko (Jun 16, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> What else matters besides manga canon in a match up?
> 
> Kaido has greater portrayal (WSC, 1v1 bet on Kaido) and currently better feats than Prime Rayleigh whose current only feat is 2v1ing Oden with Scopper.


I said "This poll represents this matchup very well". That matchup never happend in the manga, I don't get how you would think that I talk about manga canon. No matter what anyone says in here, Prime Rayleigh vs Kaido never happened in the manga, so there is no canon version.

Prime Rayleigh barely has any feats, pretty easy to have better feats tbh. Saying he needed Scopper to 2v1 Oden would also mean that Kaido needed Higurashi providing a distraction to 2v1 Oden.


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## Grinningfox (Jun 16, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> Why? Roger isn't a Yonko but a step above them and achieved what they failed to do for decades. At least Big Mom and Kaido anyway, since WB didn't care about being Pirate King. Furthermore Ray isn't some "Yonko Commander" he's a First Mate, called partner by Roger, and is clearly special. Just like Garp isn't some Vice Admiral, hell even Admiral, and Mihawk isn't just some Warlord. People like to say oh it's cause Roger's crew that he achieved Pirate King and not just individual strength, well there's your answer. He's a part of the winning team and Ray is a big part of that, just like Benn being a big part of Shanks' crew being "impregnable" is a big reason why many believe he's the first "Yonko Commander" to finally be "Admiral level". There's no doubt that if Ray continued being a pirate after Roger's death and was captain of the crew, he'd have been one of the Yonko.


  Roger’s achievement of PK was not because he was stronger than Yonkou level ( and I believe he is ) but because he bowed his head and collaborated with Newgate . 

I have never put Garp at VA level or Mihawk at WL level either so I’m not leaning into titles being the end all be all either .


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## Grinningfox (Jun 16, 2021)

Karma said:


> Roger is close in age to WB, BM and Shiki.
> 
> U think he miraculously stagnated in strength or smth?


I’m not following  what you’re saying


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## Dead Precedence (Jun 16, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> Roger’s achievement of PK was not because he was stronger than Yonkou level ( and I believe he is ) but because he bowed his head and collaborated with Newgate .
> 
> I have never put Garp at VA level or Mihawk at WL level either so I’m not leaning into titles being the end all be all either .


Primebeard is above Yonko level too though if his geriatric form is one of the Yonko and the strongest one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jun 16, 2021)

Old retired Rayleigh wasn't that much weaker than Kizaru outside of stamina issues. Prime should definitely match or be above what we consider "yonko level" right now.

Plus I think Rayleigh > Oden, and Oden almost beat Kaido that I don't think was that much weaker than current Kaido.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Grinningfox (Jun 16, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> Primebeard is above Yonko level too though if his geriatric form is one of the Yonko and the strongest one.


He’s the best of them sure ( again I think he and Roger are ) but not far and away the best of them ( ex ; he’s not taking two or beating one without heavy diff)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Karma (Jun 16, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> I’m not following  what you’re saying


Ur argueing that they werent Yonko level while under Rovks, but we know WB and Roger were equal wen they fought a few years later.

They already be in their late 30s / early 40s while they were with RPs. Which is also atound the same age as Roger and Garp.

U honestly believe the niggas who r already at their peak physically some how got exponentially stronger to match the likes of Roger and Garp after the RPs were disbanded?

Reactions: Like 1


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## chinesesoccerplayer (Jun 16, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> There's no doubt that if Ray continued being a pirate after Roger's death and was captain of the crew, he'd have been one of the Yonko.


Not only that, he might have took Shanks’ place as one of the Yonko. Shanks might not even have started his own crew and just continued sailing under Rayleigh if Rayleigh continued being an active pirate.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## LightningForce (Jun 16, 2021)

Pirao said:


> Right here, imbecile.
> 
> Any more BS you want to spew?
> 
> The only laughing stock there is around here, is you.



Am I wrong? Oden is on Kaido’s tier list with legends like Roger, WB, Xebec. That is a *statement*, not my proclamation of Oden surpassing Rayleigh, although the possibility is certainly there. 

I challenge cats who think Rayleigh surpassed Oden forever and ever when Oden has the luxury of actually overwhelming a top tier and giving him trauma whereas Rayleigh could stall and potentially help the SHs against an Admiral at his best. The level of wank Oden received by Oda being far greater than anything Rayleigh was given, including leadership.

Could they be equal in strength? The possibility is more likely than Rayleigh being Emperor level. I believe they were at the same level, with the edge given to Oden based on portrayal. But it is like the gap between Akainu and Aokiji, it could go either way.

The only BS here is cats thinking prime Rayleigh could somehow be on the level of Emperors when it only required either Garp *or* Sengoku to chase after Roger’s crew, not both.




Peppoko said:


> I said "This poll represents this matchup very well". That matchup never happend in the manga, I don't get how you would think that I talk about manga canon. No matter what anyone says in here, Prime Rayleigh vs Kaido never happened in the manga, so there is no canon version.
> 
> Prime Rayleigh barely has any feats, pretty easy to have better feats tbh. Saying he needed Scopper to 2v1 Oden would also mean that Kaido needed Higurashi providing a distraction to 2v1 Oden.



That was a weaker Kaido and even so, 2v1ing with Scopper the next strongest person in Roger’s crew is less impressive than 2v1ing for a moment’s worth of distraction.

Anyways, I don’t believe Rayleigh is at the level of current Emperors until he shows more feats. Narratively speaking, it doesn’t make sense with the actions of Roger’s crew.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Eustathios (Jun 17, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> I challenge cats who think Rayleigh surpassed Oden forever and ever when Oden has the luxury of actually overwhelming a top tier and giving him trauma whereas *Rayleigh could stall and potentially help the SHs against an Admiral at his best. *


That's more than any current characteruhas achieved. No one has been able to multitask while fighting a serious Admiral. One moment is all it takes to lose the fight.


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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 17, 2021)

Pirao said:


> Just like Mihawk downplay, Rayleigh downplay is mainly indirect Zoro downplay, true facts
> 
> If you think EoS Zoro won't be above Kaido you're living in lalaland.


Zoro will surpass Mihawk and Rayleigh so it doesn’t even matter whether he’ll be above Kaido EoS or not.


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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 17, 2021)

Perrin said:


> That guy has such outrageous sadness, what is this??


Jojo’s Bizarre Adventures, it’s a great anime/manga.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 17, 2021)

Karma said:


> Ur argueing that they werent Yonko level while under Rovks, but we know WB and Roger were equal wen they fought a few years later.
> 
> They already be in their late 30s / early 40s while they were with RPs. Which is also atound the same age as Roger and Garp.
> 
> U honestly believe the niggas who r already at their peak physically some how got exponentially stronger to match the likes of Roger and Garp after the RPs were disbanded?


BM was 30 during the Rocks incident, Kaidou likely in his teens. They obviously weren’t in their primes. WB also wasn’t in his prime, it’s stated he reached his prime at 38 in the One Piece magazine, he was 36 during God Valley. Roger is 3 years older than WB and Garp/Rayleigh 4 years.


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## Pirao (Jun 17, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Zoro will surpass Mihawk and Rayleigh so it doesn’t even matter whether he’ll be above Kaido EoS or not.


And he'll surpass Kaido as well, which is logical since both Mihawk and Rayleigh are above Kaido.

Besides, you think Yamato will join the SHs, don't you? EoS Zoro>EoS Yamato>=Kaido

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## KBD (Jun 17, 2021)

Rayleigh was Luffys first haki teacher

Then Luffy traveled all the way to Wano to seek out Kaidos Dojo to learn from the master himself

The 1v1 king takes it.


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## AmitDS (Jun 17, 2021)

I don't think we have any evidence that Rayleigh was ever on the level of an emperor. If Roger had someone so close to him and WB on his crew, I think it would be clear and confirmed. So given that Kaido in his prime is an emperor and a rival to Shanks, BM, BB and WB before illness, I'd say him.

Roger and WB would only be stronger than the other emperors marginally given the narrative. Roger was essentially emperor leveled as WB, an emperor, was his equal. & Big Mom, Roger, Shiki and WB ruled the seas 20+ years ago. That's 2 emperors being his active rivals.

So the difference between Kaido and Roger and Rayleigh and Roger are not the same or should not be based on current info.

Current Kaido is not the same as the Kaido who fought Oden and who clashed evenly with Prime Moria. So current Kaido isn't yet proven to be someone Rayleigh is above.


Oda nerfing Kaido and Big Mom with PIS and them holding back doesn't weaken them or affect them here, I believe.

Also, Rayleigh being more 'badass', smart and 'cool' because he doesn't have PIS moments like them doesn't automatically make him equal to or above a full powered yonko. Kaido and Big Mom are gigantic, reckless, gluttonous forces of nature and PIS is needed for them to not kill the SHs easily hence we see them 'fail' the way they do. Rayleigh is a legend who is supposed to teach Luffy haki so he doesn't have to be held back like that. Furthermore this Zoro parallel influencing people saying him, lacks solid manga support. Zoro isn't Luffy's equal and Beckman being the Moon to Shanks' Sun doesn't clearly denote power, authority, reputation etc. so even that's still inconclusive.

So IMO, can Rayleigh put up a fight? Yes.  He probably can outsmart Kaido too. However, can he overpower Kaido and win? No.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Eustathios (Jun 17, 2021)

AmitDS said:


> I don't think we have any evidence that Rayleigh was ever on the level of an emperor. *If Roger had someone so close to him and WB on his crew, I think it would be clear and confirmed*. So given that Kaido in his prime is an emperor and a rival to Shanks, BM, BB and WB before illness, I'd say him.


Being called Roger's partner and the Dark King definitely makes his portrayal very clear.


AmitDS said:


> Roger and WB would only be stronger than the other emperors marginally given the narrative. Roger was essentially emperor leveled as WB, an emperor, was his equal. & Big Mom, Roger, Shiki and WB ruled the seas 20+ years ago. That's 2 emperors being his active rivals.


Roger was equal to prime Whitebeard. It was old, sick Whitebeard who was an (the strongest) Emperor and still universally considered the ruler of the seas. Even then, the only reason he didn't become the Pirate King after Roger's execution was his lack of interest. It has been been reiterated time afer time again that the Pirate King is something above the Emperor status.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 2


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## Kroczilla (Jun 17, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Being called Roger's partner and the Dark King definitely makes his portrayal very clear.


Killer is also referred to as Kid's partner, but clearly there is a significant gap between the two. I think Rayleigh is strong enough to contend with the Yonko but not strong enough to win.


Eustathios said:


> It was old, sick Whitebeard who was an (the strongest) Emperor and still universally considered the ruler of the seas



Apart from the fact that WB himself all but acknowledged that he was no longer the strongest, no one outside his closest crew member (i.e Marco) seemed aware of just how much he had declined with age. Iirc it was a significant plot point during MF which even Crocodile called him out on.

Also pretty sure Kaido got the title of WSC while WB was presumed to be in good shape.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Eustathios (Jun 17, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Killer is also referred to as Kid's partner, but clearly there is a significant gap between the two. I think Rayleigh is strong enough to contend with the Yonko but not strong enough to win.


Roger and Rayleigh mirror Luffy and Zoro much more than Kid and Killer. 


Kroczilla said:


> Apart from the fact that WB himself all but acknowledged that he was no longer the strongest, no one outside his closest crew member (i.e Marco) seemed aware of just how much he had declined with age. Iirc it was a significant plot point during MF which even Crocodile called him out on.


Whitebeard did not become an Emperor in Marineford. Would you accept that Whitebeard was the strongest two years prior to MF? (When he smacked Ace sleeping)


Kroczilla said:


> Also pretty sure Kaido got the title of WSC while WB was presumed to be in good shape.


No, that's never been mentioned and I wouldn't even delve into Kaido's title too much, since Oda always presents it as a rumor whenever he has a chance to. At best it's hype from the wider OP world.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 17, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Roger and Rayleigh mirror Luffy and Zoro much more than Kid and Killer.



Luffy has never referred to Zoro as his partner though. The point is that him being referred to as partner doesn't necessarily mean his is so close to Roger that he could defeat his Captain's rivals.



Eustathios said:


> Whitebeard did not become an Emperor in Marineford. Would you accept that Whitebeard was the strongest two years prior to MF? (When he smacked Ace sleeping)


The point of Marineford was that no one knew just how badly WB had declined from his prime. There is no reason to believe WB was the strongest at the time as the true state of his condition was seemingly only known to Marco.




Eustathios said:


> No, that's never been mentioned and I wouldn't even delve into Kaido's title too much, since Oda always presents it as a rumor whenever he has a chance to. At best it's hype from the wider OP world



Pretty sure the novel of Ace reaffirmed the title. Also all titles are hype from the wider OP world. WB has not literally gone around beating every single man in the world to gain the title that he did.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Perrin (Jun 17, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> WB has not literally gone around beating every single man in the world to gain the title that he did.


Spin off manga where Kaido has a list if every creature he has to go through one by one.


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## Mihawk (Jun 17, 2021)

To make a case for Prime Rayleigh beating Kaido, extreme diff:

(I guess I could argue for the latter as well if i'm feeling more objective and up for it)

*Portrayal & Hype(as well as old gen wank: *A testament to Rayleigh's prime self is what he's capable of in his old age. Stalemating Kizaru doesn't necessarily make him the equal to an Admiral, but it does show that he can hold his own against one without being captured or beaten, in spite of being outnumbered by an admiral and his goons + a warlord. His stamina might be inferior to Kizaru, but he was the first character who showed the ability to wound one. Ray indicated his prime self could've held Kizaru off while saving the SHs, while Kizaru said he was tryna make it look bad. This scene implies superiority over an Admiral by Prime Ray.

What about the Admirals relative to the Yonko? The power balance is maintained by the relative equality between Marine HQ and the Four Emperors. The Admirals serve as the Navy's ultimate and only counter against the four strongest pirates in the world (now that Shichibukai is disbanded). Even if you believe that the Admirals are weaker than the Yonko, you should still be able to rationalise that their combat ability makes it an extremely dangerous battle. We saw this in their performance against Whitebeard, one of the Yonko. The Yonko themselves are relatively equal to one another, similar to how the Admirals are amongst themselves. They have stalemated each other at sea for years, and none are able to advance further.

How is this relevant to Rayleigh? IF a 79 year old, retired version of Ray could stalemate an Admiral or prove close to being his equal, then this supports the idea that Prime Ray (who was active as the PK's Right hand) was Yonko level. Even if you believe Yonko > Admirals, surely you can't still think that Rayleigh at his peak couldn't be as strong as an Emperor in the current timeline.

There's more though. 79 year old Rayleigh was confirmed by Oda in an SBS to have basic Conqueror's Haki on par with Shanks, a current Yonko. Shanks could knock out 100,000 fodder, Ray can do the same. Since he is also a swordsman who has no Devil Fruit, Is it so hard to view Shanks, to be a close approximation of what Rayleigh could have been in his prime, and a Yonko level dude? He was still a master in all 3 forms of Haki in spite of coming out of retirement. At his peak, his Haki would've been insane.

You can call it *Old gen wank*, but the fact is the top old legends are depicted as absolute monsters whom have fully stamped themselves into history. Their accomplishments are beyond anything the current generation has. Whitebeard, Roger, Garp, are a step above modern top tiers. The thing with all the legends is that they're always placed in the same breath. Garp acknowledged this with Rayleigh, who was also included along with others like Shiki, Garp, Sengoku prime, and Roger. All these guys were comparable to Yonko level in their era.

Kaido's own hype and portrayal is substantial. His contemporary title of WSC is impressive, but it doesn't necessarily put him above all the other legends _sans_ the PK/WSM. Even if the title was literal, it can't be applied across different eras. That's like saying Mihawk's title of WSS puts him over Roger.  It's possible Kaido's the strongest active pirate right now, but his title alone is based on claims and rumours around the world, and even these rumours are not impregnable. It's really no different from Old Whitebeard's ability to "destroy the world", which was more or less hyperbole by Sengoku based on his knowledge of Prime WB. Trafalgar Law says that Kaido is said to be the WSC; Nami casts ambiguity in that distinction when she questions if Kaido is human or not.

*Feats: *This is where Kaido obviously wins, as he is currently the main antagonist of the series. We've seen almost his entire arsenal from his Hybrid form, Advanced CoC, Thunder Bagua/Ocean Sovereignty/Ragnarok, to his Zoan's version of Tatsumaki and Boros Breath. The only thing left to elevate the ceiling of Kaido's feats further is his Awakening. Naturally, Kaido benefits from more exposure and feats over: a) characters who have yet to fully show their arsenal or aren't relevant; and b) characters from the past whom have yet to appear in the story or aren't relevant.

Kaido benefits due to more exposure considering his current placement in the story. That's pretty much about it, and the same goes for Big Mom.

*Stats & Matchup: *Again, using Old Ray as a basis for the attributes possessed by his younger self gives us a fair estimation of what areas he could've excelled in. Kaido likely has him beat in *durability*, *strength*, and possibly endurance. In terms of physical strength, it's worth noting that the Admirals could all match Whitebeard physically. Top tier swordsmen are also known for having incredibly destructive cutting ability. We saw this with Mihawk and the black blade, cutting a mountain of ice. We saw this from a swordsman who may or may not even be in top tier territory yet in Zoro, as he dealt a significant injury to Kaido. We saw the same from Oden. Top tier swordsmen aren't just freakishly strong. Their *lethality* is second to none. Old Ray was able to intercept and keep up with Kizaru. Prime Ray should possess freakish *speed*. Old Ray was able to swim through the Calm Belt for several days, so Prime Ray should be no slouch in endurance to Kaido. Any top tier can fight for days. Though I guess you could give the edge to Kaido, based on what we saw from Old Whitebeard.

Point is, they should be on the same level but will excel in different areas.

The question you should ask yourself ultimately is: do you think Kaido (who fell short of the PK's glory), is any closer to Roger than his partner would be?

Saying Kaido wins this in an extreme-diff fight because he's the WSC is reasonable. I can see it, objectively. Saying Prime Rayleigh isn't comparable to the current Yonko is a flat out joke.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1 | Winner 4 | Disagree 2


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## Turrin (Jun 17, 2021)

Raleigh likely wins, if we can go off Zoro strength at all; as Zoro Low Diff’s Kaidou by EoS and as such Raleigh should at least Mid-High diff him

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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 17, 2021)

Pirao said:


> And he'll surpass Kaido as well, which is logical since both Mihawk and Rayleigh are above Kaido.
> 
> Besides, you think Yamato will join the SHs, don't you? EoS Zoro>EoS Yamato>=Kaido


Zoro likely will surpass Kaidou considering the rate he’s growing at. I’m just pointing out that saying EoS Zoro>Kaidou means Rayleigh/Mihawk>Kaidou doesn’t make sense considering Zoro will obviously also surpass Mihawk and most likely surpass Rayleigh. The new generation of “heroes”almost always surpass the previous generation the same way Luffy will most likely surpass Roger/WB.

And I don’t think Yamato will surpass Kaidou by EoS. I don’t expect her to grow as quickly as The M3.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 17, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Spin off manga where Kaido has a list if every creature he has to go through one by one.

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## KBD (Jun 17, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Spin off manga where Kaido has a list if every creature he has to go through one by one.


Adventures of Koido: climbing the stream

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## AmitDS (Jun 17, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Being called Roger's partner and the Dark King definitely makes his portrayal very clear.


Being called his parter =/= being called his equal. Compare that to the hype WB got. Maybe it will be revealed in future but as of right now....


Eustathios said:


> Roger was equal to prime Whitebeard. It was old, sick Whitebeard who was an (the strongest) Emperor and still universally considered the ruler of the seas. Even then, the only reason he didn't become the Pirate King after Roger's execution was his lack of interest. It has been been reiterated time afer time again that the Pirate King is something above the Emperor status.


Whitebeard was an emperor in his prime and called the WSM before Roger died. So Roger was emperor leveled. And that was when Big Mom and Shiki were competing with them.  Big Mom was also an emperor back then. So if he was stronger it would likely be marginally.

This false narrative that old sick WB was the strongest every second in MF because he still had the title he earned decades before, makes no sense. He himself said he can't be the strongest forever and we all saw him deteriorate in real time. Characters like Marco even pointed it out. So his power in MF was inconsistent because his illness started to act up.


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## Perrin (Jun 17, 2021)

This is the closest poll iv seen in my few months here in the fanverse (formerly known as narutoforums)


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## Mihawk (Jun 17, 2021)

AmitDS said:


> Whitebeard was an emperor in his prime and called the WSM before Roger died. So Roger was emperor leveled. And that was when Big Mom and Shiki were competing with them.  Big Mom was also an emperor back then. So even if he was stronger it would likely be marginally.


They were above the Emperors in their prime. Whitebeard was still Emperor at age 72 and remained an obstacle to the other Emperors, stalemating them. Roger was above the Emperors because his title is what they are aiming for. Big Mom and Shiki competed with them, but came up short. Shiki lost, and he was Emperor level at the time too.

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## Perrin (Jun 17, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> They were above the Emperors in their prime. Whitebeard was still Emperor at age 72 and remained an obstacle to the other Emperors, stalemating them. Roger was above the Emperors because his title is what they are aiming for. Big Mom and Shiki competed with them, but came up short. Shiki lost, and he was Emperor level at the time too.


Exactly, if we assume Prime Roger can solo Kaido and Big Mom at the same time then i reckon prime rayleigh can take this.

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## Mylesime (Jun 17, 2021)

Perrin said:


> This is the closest poll iv seen in my few months here in the fanverse (formerly known as narutoforums)


As it should be.
It's an extreme diff fight either way, so would not bother arguing passionately either way.
Anyone claiming that the winner is clear and obvious can't be taken seriously.....
I get what the Dark King is, partner of the first pirate king, master of the future pirate king, haki master..... impressive.
His encounter against Kizaru is overwanked tough, he would have lost.
Kaido went from being overestimated after the events of Kuri ( like thinking he could casually OS a first mate when Big Mom is clearly shown unable to do so with Marco, or thinking that he could solo his whole crew....).
Currently he's underestimated,  without PIS this war would be over, with a few throats sliced by the dragon. He'll be superior to Luffy even at the end of the arc, the amount of help for Luffy is unbelievable......
Both are among the very best after the Pirate King.... a former partner and one of the rivals of a rival

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Pirateer (Jun 17, 2021)

Is it really so outlandish to think that prime Rayleigh would beat Kaido extreme diff? An old Rayleigh who hadn't used a sword in a long time was able to hold off and scratch Kizaru, his only wound in the series if I recall correctly

Not at all weird to believe that Prime Rayleigh is Yonko level and could possibly extreme diff Kaido, I see Rayleigh as very similar to Shanks (haki master/swordsman)

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 17, 2021)

Gensui Ryusei Kazan said:


> Kaido high diff.
> The downplay to Kaido is ridiculous.


Kaido can win with extreme diff at best. He might lose. You’re underestimating Rayleigh.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## LightningForce (Jun 17, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> That's more than any current characteruhas achieved. No one has been able to multitask while fighting a serious Admiral. One moment is all it takes to lose the fight.



Disagree. Running away from top tiers while multitasking doesn't seem to be much of an issue for younger people. See Law vs. Fujitora and Doflamingo. Rayleigh would just go help SHs by one-shotting the Pacifistas who are nothing compared to Rayleigh, but unfortunately Kizaru wouldn't let him escape as they were already in a sword match.



Pirateer said:


> Is it really so outlandish to think that prime Rayleigh would beat Kaido extreme diff? An old Rayleigh who hadn't used a sword in a long time was able to hold off and scratch Kizaru, his only wound in the series if I recall correctly
> 
> Not at all weird to believe that Prime Rayleigh is Yonko level and could possibly extreme diff Kaido, I see Rayleigh as very similar to Shanks (haki master/swordsman)



Yes, because two Emperor-level fighters in a single crew is an extremely big deal. It would be like facing BM and Kaido together, but we know for a fact that they only stalemated WB's crew and sneaked around BM's territory. Indicating that Roger was the strongest of the crew and by a good margin.

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## Pirateer (Jun 17, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Yes, because two Emperor-level fighters in a single crew is an extremely big deal. It would be like facing BM and Kaido together, but we know for a fact that they only stalemated WB's crew and sneaked around BM's territory. Indicating that Roger was the strongest of the crew and by a good margin.


If old, rusty Rayleigh is able to stalemate Kizaru for some time (although I think Kizaru would eventually high diff him), how strong do you think Prime Rayleigh and current Luffy are? Do you think Luffy has surpassed Prime Rayleigh yet? Also how much stronger do you think Prime Rayleigh is compared to old Rayleigh? 

Don't think it's canon but they had Scopper fighting Oden in the anime instead of Rayleigh, if they wanted to portray Prime Rayleigh = Oden then they could have easily done that. On top of that I think Prime Rayleigh is stronger than Oden who is considered to be close/similar to Admiral level and was on track to defeat Kaido (admittedly a weaker version from 20 years ago). At the absolute worst, Kaido would need high diff to defeat Prime Rayleigh and that's imo at the absolute worst. Prime Rayleigh should be near Yonko level, it doesn't make sense for him to be like YC1 or Marco level imo


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## Chronophage (Jun 17, 2021)

Could go either way to be honest but I voted Prime Rayleigh because the Kaido wank needs to stop at some point, he's not the ultimate benchmark of this series. If he was, Oda wouldn't have made him the Wano arc boss and get his ass kicked somewhere 3/4th through the end of the NW. Kaido and Prime Ray are both "S" grade top-tiers in my book while Prime Roger, Prime Newgate and most likely Prime Garp are "S+". Not entirely sure about Shiki and Xebec.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Datassassin (Jun 17, 2021)

Any character that can be well-reasoned to have been above old-ass, sick-ass Whitebeard (_who remained the WSM as a narrative fact aka "within the story's universe, the author would never have him 'lose a fight' to any single other character concurrently-alive when starting fresh"_) should not need "extreme difficulty" to defeat Kaido. Kaido was not stronger than Old WB while Old WB breathed, given the repeated refusal of the author to even give Kaido a relevant World's Strongest Blank *after* Old WB's death. "It is said _this_", "people say _that_", no narrative boxes like with the other relevant titles and no SBS statements in support of Kaido factually being the strongest entity in OP.

Old WB's strength served as an easily identifiable cap on the present era's strength, or rather a cap on the strength of the _established leaders_ of the present era. After Old WB died, *any* character could in fact grow in strength beyond the Old WB level (aka on par with Admirals and Yonko, but simply able to declare eventual victory) without the author needing to negate the WSM title holder's validity. Kaido is likely not one of these characters, which would be people like Prime Blackbeard or Prime Luffy, as Kaido wouldn't have really had some sort of jump in power in the 2 years since Old WB's demise. He was already depicted as being in his prime, not training, not acquiring new powers, not facing challenging enemies up until Big Mom. This touches on the reality of the Yonko deadlock: that those versions of the captains were all very close in strength.

Even if Kaido's power passively increased beyond the prior world-cap of "Old WB level" in the last 2 OPverse years, the difference between Prime WB and Old WB logically would be enormous. The difference _then_ between Roger and Old WB, too, would be equally cavernous. One then just has to look at anyone who could be competitive with Prime WB or Roger, like Roger's exalted partner or Roger's eternal pursuer, and _the gap_ between those sorts of figures and Old WB (the strongest man in the present OPVerse era up until 2 years ago) _can be mostly applied to them_. Even if a character could not stalemate Prime WB or Roger, any character who would demand full effort to beat for those figures should be above the present Admirals & Yonko by a *sizable* margin. They're doomed in these sort of matchups for having already been in their primes by the time of WB's death, so there's little justification for imagining them as rocketing past Old WB's strength. I don't necessarily _like_ this power scheme so-tied to "Old WB as the WSM", which is brutal to characters like current Shanks, but it is what it is.

Prime Ray beats Kaido without his life being actually at risk and likely without permanent injury, and I'd say similar for figures such as Prime Garp, Prime Roger, Prime WB, and inevitably Xebec. If Old Ray, so glaringly having watched his strength rust away into beer foam with a dust-coated sword nearby, could perform so well against an active Admiral...then yea Prime Ray ravages any strength-peer of that Admiral.

A similarly old version of Rayleigh who _didn't_ step back from combat for twenty years, but instead kept his skills sharp (when bodily, swordsmanship, and haki skills are all that he has ever had) is a figure I could _already_ buy beating Kaido. Prime Ray? The character all but shouted to be "the slightly weaker version of Roger" as his 'dark' kingly counterpart, initial-ship-provider, fighting-style mirror, silver to his gold and realistic Prime Zoro-benchmark? An obvious victory to me. 

If Roger lived and bummed around for twenty whole years, he'd be giving what Ray was giving on Sabaody unless he had actually relied on non-degradable DF skills.

Reactions: Like 6 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## deltaniner (Jun 17, 2021)

Imo, Hybrid Kaido>=Prime Rayleigh>Base Kaido>Old Rayleigh.

Kaido extreme diffs, very possibly loses a limb or two.


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## Sherlōck (Jun 17, 2021)

Shanks ~ Prime Ray

Laidou wins extreme difficulty.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## trance (Jun 18, 2021)

toss up

things may change post-wano


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## Duhul10 (Jun 18, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Exactly, if we assume *Prime Roger can solo Kaido and Big Mom at the same time *then i reckon prime rayleigh can take this.


yeah, but it's not healthy to assume ideas like this


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## Dunno (Jun 18, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> Ray being mere Yonkou level is nuts to me


I agree with this. Old Ray is Yonkou level, so Prime Ray is obviously significantly stronger.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 18, 2021)

Dunno said:


> I agree with this. Old Ray is Yonkou level, so Prime Ray is obviously significantly stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## TheWiggian (Jun 18, 2021)

Dunno said:


> I agree with this. Old Ray is Yonkou level, so Prime Ray is obviously significantly stronger.


Makes sense. Old Ray is very slightly below the strongest characters in the verse right now. A prime version of him would have superior stats for sure and better haki because we know that despite him being a haki god with perfect mastery over all shades, this is a man that lost his will to live. Imagine how powerful his haki was in his prime.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## demonkiller123 (Jun 18, 2021)

Is everyone in agreement that Prime Rayleigh can coat his sword in Advance Conquers?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Red Admiral (Jun 18, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Same...but it always alarms me to see so many people who think the Rocks duo are the strongest characters in the series, when they're current arc villain


there is nothing alarming about respecting on screen hype and feat ...
I don't even consider Kaido WSM alive but admitting he done better than Shanks so far won't belittle Shanks (who I think is true strongest)

you know what's more alarming?
*people favoring Prime Dark King with zero feats over Kaido*

 but again ... I'm done here.
I might come back later on when fanverse have fewer toxic fans 

enjoy agreeing with each other about obviously wrong statements

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## cry77 (Jun 18, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Neither was Shiki, who was grouped with Roger and Whitebeard. Kaido's list is exclusively tied to his personal experiences. Otherwise we would have at least seen Garp there too.


And even then it was lackluster as we know for a fact that BM can harm him, and he should know this perfectly well.

Shit list is shit.. 

And the shit list wasnt even about ad.CoC but about ad.CoA - meaning all the scabbards and Hyogoro should be on it as well.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## MO (Jun 18, 2021)

I would bet on Kaido.


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## MO (Jun 18, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Nothing proves Shanks is above Kaido tho


nothing proves shanks above anybody but his fans still put him at the top.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Perrin (Jun 18, 2021)

Duhul10 said:


> yeah, but it's not healthy to assume ideas like this


Ive chosen the hill i will die on!

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kroczilla (Jun 18, 2021)

One common theme I have noticed in this thread is a some folks making convenient use of the word "narrative" while completely ignoring same when it suits their purpose.

For example, the "two piece" opinion that Rayleigh is Yonko lvl despite the fact that a union of two Yonko in the actual storyline is regarded as an unprecedented event worthy of comparison to the greatest pirate force in history.

We are also expected to believe that Old WB remained the strongest despite that narrative being conclusively killed the moment Squardo got the drop in him.

Prime Ray is strong, but if he was truly on par with the Yonko, then Roger's crew would have been used as the standard by which to rate the Kaido/Big mom alliance.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 2 | Dislike 1


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## Karma (Jun 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> One common theme I have noticed in this thread is a some folks making convenient use of the word "narrative" while completely ignoring same when it suits their purpose.
> 
> For example, the "two piece" opinion that Rayleigh is Yonko lvl despite the fact that a union of two Yonko in the actual storyline is regarded as an unprecedented event worthy of comparison to the greatest pirate force in history.
> 
> ...


Dont u place Oden on Yonko tier?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 18, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> Ray being Yonkou level is nuts to me


How strong do you think Zoro will be EOS?


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## Kroczilla (Jun 18, 2021)

Karma said:


> Dont u place Oden on Yonko tier?


Must be because unlike Rayleigh, Oden is explicitly placed on the same standing as other Yonko lvl characters.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 1


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## Grinningfox (Jun 18, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> How strong do you think Zoro will be EOS?


Entirely shaped by where Mihawk ultimately ends up being 

Right now likely Yonkou level but that’s just taking everything at face value


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## Perrin (Jun 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> One common theme I have noticed in this thread is a some folks making convenient use of the word "narrative" while completely ignoring same when it suits their purpose.
> 
> For example, the "two piece" opinion that Rayleigh is Yonko lvl despite the fact that a union of two Yonko in the actual storyline is regarded as an unprecedented event worthy of comparison to the greatest pirate force in history.
> 
> ...


Flip it on its head.
Roger and Prime Rayleigh vs Rooftop Five.
After 1 hour Roger and Prime Ray get Hawkins.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 18, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Flip it on its head.
> Roger and Prime Rayleigh vs Rooftop Five.
> *After 1 hour Roger and Prime Ray get Hawkins*.


Not sure about @bolded, but if Roger and Rayleigh placed around as much as Big mom and Kaido had against the R5, they would get hurt pretty bad.

Literally the minute, the duo decided to actually put their backs into a single attack, they damn near wiped the team of SNs out in a single blow. Frankly but for plot, the R5 would have been absolutely fucked.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Karma (Jun 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Must be because unlike Rayleigh, Oden is explicitly placed on the same standing as other Yonko lvl characters.


But a union of two Yonko in the actual storyline is regarded as an unprecedented event worthy of comparison to the greatest pirate force in history.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 18, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> Entirely shaped by where Mihawk ultimately ends up being
> 
> Right now likely Yonkou level but that’s just taking everything at face value


Then why is it hard to believe that Rayleigh was at that level in his Prime?


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## Grinningfox (Jun 18, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Then why is it hard to believe that Rayleigh was at that level in his Prime?


Because Rayleigh isn’t Zoro nor does his dynamic with his captain have to be the same as Zoro’s . Zoro’s character is intertwined with his strength in a way Ray’s isn’t so far. Zoro HAS to be greater than Mihawk and any other swordsman around , Rayleigh doesn’t . Also Luffy having a Emperor class Righthand doesn’t mean Roger did as Luffy and his crew will surpass Roger’s.

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## Karma (Jun 18, 2021)

Karma said:


> But a union of two Yonko in the actual storyline is regarded as an unprecedented event worthy of comparison to the greatest pirate force in history.


Marines also didnt give 2 fucks wen Oden teamed up with Roger and by that point hed been a pirate for years.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 18, 2021)

Karma said:


> But a union of two Yonko in the actual storyline is regarded as an unprecedented event worthy of comparison to the greatest pirate force in history.


Oden was for the most part, a complete unknown during his Pirate years given that no one outside of his close associates knew much about him. Also iirc he basically joined Roger for his "speed run" towards finding the One Piece. He was always more of a guest than an actual crew member.


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## Perrin (Jun 18, 2021)

Karma said:


> Marines also didnt give 2 fucks wen Oden teamed up with Roger and by that point hed been a pirate for years.


Well it was above their paygrade. When it pertains to the void century and ancient hidden truths its the Celestial Dragons that


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## Kroczilla (Jun 18, 2021)

Karma said:


> Marines also didnt give 2 fucks wen Oden teamed up with Roger and by that point hed been a pirate for years.


I think that based on his performance against Roger, Oden didn't reach his prime until after his return to Wano

The manga seems to support this:


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 18, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> Because Rayleigh isn’t Zoro nor does his dynamic with his captain have to be the same as Zoro’s . Zoro’s character is intertwined with his strength in a way Ray’s isn’t so far. Zoro HAS to be greater than Mihawk and any other swordsman around , Rayleigh doesn’t . Also Luffy having a Emperor class Righthand doesn’t mean Roger did as Luffy and his crew will surpass Roger’s.


The parallels seem pretty obvious and intentional to me. Over the timeskip, Zoro was trained by Mihawk. Koby was trained by Garp. Do you think Oda had Luffy trained by someone significantly beneath them? Rayleigh is a Conqueror. He’s a legend according to Garp. He’s someone that can give an Admiral trouble as a septagenarian. He’s the Dark King and the right-hand man of the Pirate King. We’ll just have to wait and see though. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. If Rayleigh is weaker than the Emperors, it’s probably only slightly.


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## Grinningfox (Jun 18, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> The parallels seem pretty obvious and intentional to me. Over the timeskip, Zoro was trained by Mihawk. Koby was trained by Garp. Do you think Oda had Luffy trained by someone significantly beneath them? Rayleigh is a Conqueror. He’s a legend according to Garp. He’s someone that can give an Admiral trouble as a septagenarian. He’s the Dark King and the right-hand man of the Pirate King. We’ll just have to wait and see though. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. If Rayleigh is weaker than the Emperors, it’s probably only slightly.


I genuinely hope you’re wrong but as you say we will have to wait and see

Reactions: Like 1


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## MO (Jun 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Prime Ray is strong, but if he was truly on par with the Yonko, then Roger's crew would have been used as the standard by which to rate the Kaido/Big mom alliance.


this is actually a good point. Big mom and kaido alliance was said to be the birthed of the strongest crew to ever exist.  That would be false if prime ray was yonko level.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Datassassin (Jun 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> For example, the "two piece" opinion that Rayleigh is Yonko lvl despite the fact that a union of two Yonko in the actual storyline is regarded as an unprecedented event worthy of comparison to the greatest pirate force in history.


2 of the top 4 pirates alive joined together along with all of their extensive forces, and were from the Rocks crew, and you think any non-Rocks reference on the marine's part would have made sense? Pieces of Rocks coming back together, especially with the members in question now stronger, _was_ truly unprecedented. 

Versions of people that don't exist anymore being able to body the Yonko didn't detract from those Yonko's real threat to the people still around in the world.


Kroczilla said:


> We are also expected to believe that Old WB remained the strongest despite that narrative being conclusively killed the moment Squardo got the drop in him.


Old WB being wounded is not 'WB losing in a fight to another character', which is what *real* negation of WB's WSM designation would be. A colossal point of Old WB's standing was that as grossly deteriorated as he was, _no one would still defeat him 1v1._


Kroczilla said:


> Prime Ray is strong, but if he was truly on par with the Yonko, then Roger's crew would have been used as the standard by which to rate the Kaido/Big mom alliance.


A) I don't see how the _winning_ crew, aka the _actual_ strongest crew in this story's history aka the _Roger Pirates_, would be the bar against which former _Rocks_ pirates would be measured instead of the _Rocks_ crew itself. While we don't know how exactly the Rocks crew was defeated, nor the strength of Xebec, it is clear that this was *well* before Roger reached his peak. There was like *14 years* between the crumbling of Rocks and Roger's flashy end.
B) Prime Rayleigh shouldn't be on par with the Yonko, correct. The Pirate King's dark partner should be above that stagnated field of figures who remained weaker than 70s WB.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Optimistic 1


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## Subtle (Jun 18, 2021)

Prime Rayleigh wins,

Rayleigh in his prime would be at his peak, in skill and ability and he wouldn't be out of practice but while he was, he was still capable of challenging/holding off Kizaru. Prime Rayleigh would be in fighting shape while being mentally prepared for battle unlike old Reyleigh.

He was Roger's *Right Hand* and considered *a Partner*.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perrin (Jun 18, 2021)

MO said:


> this is actually a good point. Big mom and kaido alliance was said to be the birthed of the strongest crew to ever exist.  That would be false if prime ray was yonko level.


Wouldnt be the first time they overestimated the strength of a yonkou

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Karma (Jun 18, 2021)

MO said:


> this is actually a good point. Big mom and kaido alliance was said to be the birthed of the strongest crew to ever exist.  That would be false if prime ray was yonko level.


It was the strongest crew, its y Roger needed Garp to win


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 18, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> I genuinely hope you’re wrong but as you say we will have to wait and see


Why do you hope I’m wrong?


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## Kroczilla (Jun 18, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> 2 of the top 4 pirates alive joined together along with all of their extensive forces, and were from the Rocks crew, and you think any non-Rocks reference on the marine's part would have made sense?


Hey, I'm not the one claiming Rayleigh can defeat Kaido without much trouble. If Rayleigh was ever that strong, then there would have been no need to go so far back to find a comparison. After all, Raleigh is tots the strongest   


Datassassin said:


> Old WB being wounded is not 'WB losing in a fight to another character', which is what *real* negation of WB's WSM designation would be. A colossal point of Old WB's standing was that as grossly deteriorated as he was, _*no one would still defeat him 1v1*_


I see you completely missed the point which was that Squardo was able to actually impale him in the first place with WB all but confirming that he was no longer the strongest.

Also curious where @bolded was gotten from exactly. The only person in the story who has ever been given the benefit of doubt in a 1v1 battle is Kaido. Mind you, this title existed even when WB was alive.


Datassassin said:


> A) I don't see how the _winning_ crew, aka the _actual_ strongest crew in this story's history aka the _Roger Pirates_, would be the bar against which former _Rocks_ pirates would be measured instead of the _Rocks_ crew itself.


Pretty sure Rocks was defeated by the combined efforts of Roger and the Marines led by Garp, the strongest Marine in history. 


Datassassin said:


> *While we don't know how exactly the Rocks crew was defeated,* nor the strength of Xebec, it is clear that this was *well* before Roger reached his peak. There was like *14 years* between


@bolded should have been where your statement ended. The exact details of Rocks defeat is unknown. However what has been alluded to so far is the crew falling apart due to an abundance of conquerors.

No way of knowing when exactly Roger hit his peak, however given that his eternal rival, Garp achieved his greatest fame in that battle, it is fair to say that Roger was at the very least not far from his absolute prime.


Datassassin said:


> Prime Rayleigh shouldn't be on par with the Yonko, correct. The Pirate King's dark partner should be above that stagnated field of figures who remained weaker than 70s WB.


Obvious troll is obvious.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (Jun 18, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Why do you hope I’m wrong?


Because 

A) it wouldn’t make sense to me
B) It just feels like another way people try to increase the gap between Roger and the Yonkou

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mihawk (Jun 18, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Prime Rayleigh shouldn't be on par with the Yonko, correct. The Pirate King's dark partner should be above that stagnated field of figures who remained weaker than 70s WB.



Exactly. Old Whitebeard at 72 maintained a deadlock with the other Yonko. This stalemate remained unbroken as Big Mom admitted she needed Elbaf's support to overtake him.

According to Doflamingo, Whitebeard stood in front of the throne. Furthermore, the Era after Roger's death and leading up to Marineford was known as Whitebeard's Era. At worst, he was still equal to the other Yonko.

It is really so hard to imagine Prime WB being on another level when he would be significantly better in every notable area? Especially since people acknowledge and believe that he got substantially weaker from his prime.

As for Ray, no he's not Zoro but the parallels are obvious. It shows in their near identical dynamic of partnership (Roger/Ray also sailing out on a small ass boat to start), having identical scars, how they act as foils to their captains and the straight man of the crew, and the title of Dark King which is obviously a play for being a shadow behind Roger's back, similar to Beckmann and Shanks. Ray's going to be a logical and major benchmark on Zoro's path of progression to meet, just as Roger will be for Luffy. This doesn't require for him to be Zoro's goal at all. It's likely this will be close to the end of the series or when they reach the last island anyways.

So yes, it can make sense for Prime Ray to be around Yonko level and rather convincingly too, since Zoro is going to match or surpass his legend along the way as well as beating Mihawk. Zoro is going to surpass them both, consecutively. The Roger Pirates were stacked with talent. They had a Monster Trio of their own, and that was before they even added Oden. They were always special (as they even had a future Emperor as an apprentice), and are likely to be outdone or matched only by the future SHs, not the current Emperors and their crews. Hell, not even close...except for maybe the Blackbeard Pirates.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Datassassin (Jun 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> If Rayleigh was ever that strong, then there would have been no need to go so far back to find a comparison. After all, Raleigh is tots the strongest


The point is why would Prime Rayleigh be on the marines' tongues, and not the actual shared origin of the 2 characters (BM+Kaido) in question? He's simply not relevant thematically at all to their union.


Kroczilla said:


> I see you completely missed the point which was that Squardo was able to actually impale him in the first place with WB all but confirming that he was no longer the strongest.


WB, and everyone else, was seeing that WB had clearly immensely weakened from his prime days to be injured in the fashion that he was. This still doesn't mean anyone could, or would, defeat him 1v1.


Kroczilla said:


> Also curious where @bolded was gotten from exactly. The only person in the story who has ever been given the benefit of doubt in a 1v1 battle is Kaido. Mind you, this title existed even when WB was alive.


There's nothing in the manga nor in the SBS interviews that show WB was actually the WSM while Roger floated around. The WSM title itself is heavily predicated on the acknowledged capacity of WB to _match_ Roger, so with Roger gone, he clearly would be the WSM.

A presumption of victory in 1v1s is the real/sensible meaning of a "World's Strongest Man" title in a combat-centric story. It doesn't mean "this character, the WSM, cannot be defeated by any means; no army, no unions, no extenuating circumstances can bring this character down". It obviously refers to performance in a 'normal fight', which would be a 1v1. Kaido's _alleged_ 1v1 superiority is word of mouth, and not authorial SBS statements backed up by narration boxes. Even then, despite some characters in the story's universe _perceiving_ Kaido as a relevant "World's Strongest" title holder, he has been defeated a bunch of times. Mihawk as well, as the World's Strongest Swordsman, could theoretically be defeated by a group of high-level swordsmen who only relied on their blades _and his title would still be accurate_.


Kroczilla said:


> Pretty sure Rocks was defeated by the combined efforts of Roger and the Marines led by Garp, the strongest Marine in history.


You acknowledge the lack of Rocks fight clarity in the part of your post after this, so I don't get the worth of the sentence here. We genuinely don't know how many participants there even were or who exactly they fought, what outside factors influenced the battle if any, if the Rocks Pirates betrayed one another, etc. We mainly know *an aspect of the fight's end*, that the Rocks side lost and that Xebec himself fell to the efforts of Garp and Roger 14 years before Roger died. There's blatantly a lot of detail missing, and yet the Rocks crew is still the direct thematic tie to invoke for in-universe characters discussing the BM-Kaido team-up.


Kroczilla said:


> *No way of knowing when exactly Roger hit his peak*, however given that his eternal rival, Garp achieved his greatest fame in that battle, it is fair to say that Roger was at the very least not far from his absolute prime.


It sure wasn't 14 years before the dude's death at 53 though, which is a long time any way you slice it. Barring lack of effort, maiming, etc., One Piece characters shouldn't be peaking at 39. Especially not the main character the story was laid out by.


Kroczilla said:


> Obvious troll is obvious.


I don't troll about these sort of things lmao, or in general usually on here. The designation of a Yonko is not close to the impressiveness of the Pirate King; it's 4 people and their forces unable to safely defeat one another for ages, strength-peers of a *degraded* former equal to the PK, managing territory and not truly advancing towards most of their real goals of reigning supreme or of reaching One Piece. Maybe super-far in the past I'd have thought otherwise, but now that we've seen Old WB, Kaido, and Big Mom in action along with the operations of the latter two...I am not impressed with the Yonko brand.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Dead Precedence (Jun 18, 2021)

If Ray remained an active pirate after his captain's death and lead the remaining Roger pirates do people really doubt he wouldn't have been a Yonko by default? The only reason to say no to this would be because he'd be disqualified from that position since he already reached Laugh Tale rather than it being a matter of him being to weak. He already reached endgame would be accused of griefing by other players by being NG+.


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## Mihawk (Jun 18, 2021)




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## LightningForce (Jun 18, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Exactly. Old Whitebeard at 72 maintained a deadlock with the other Yonko. This stalemate remained unbroken as Big Mom admitted she needed Elbaf's support to overtake him.
> 
> According to Doflamingo, Whitebeard stood in front of the throne. Furthermore, the Era after Roger's death and leading up to Marineford was known as Whitebeard's Era. At worst, he was still equal to the other Yonko.
> 
> It is really so hard to imagine Prime WB being on another level when he would be significantly better in every notable area? Especially since people acknowledge and believe that he got substantially weaker from his prime.



Prime WB wasn’t on another “level” like mid-diffing current Emperors. Emperors arein a deadlock because of their *crews*. Not the individuals themselves.

The fact that BM would have crushed all the other Emperors with Elbaf, giants that she trashed as a 5 year old, signifies that the crew is the most important element in the OP pirate world. Without the crew, the Emperors aren’t Emperors. Without a strong crew, WB would have been defeated.



Mihawk said:


> As for Ray, no he's not Zoro but the parallels are obvious. It shows in their near identical dynamic of partnership (Roger/Ray also sailing out on a small ass boat to start), having identical scars, how they act as foils to their captains and the straight man of the crew, and the title of Dark King which is obviously a play for being a shadow behind Roger's back, similar to Beckmann and Shanks. Ray's going to be a logical and major benchmark on Zoro's path of progression to meet, just as Roger will be for Luffy. This doesn't require for him to be Zoro's goal at all. It's likely this will be close to the end of the series or when they reach the last island anyways.
> 
> 
> So yes, it can make sense for Prime Ray to be around Yonko level and rather convincingly too, since Zoro is going to match or surpass his legend along the way as well as beating Mihawk. Zoro is going to surpass them both, consecutively. The Roger Pirates were stacked with talent. They had a Monster Trio of their own, and that was before they even added Oden. They were always special (as they even had a future Emperor as an apprentice), and are likely to be outdone or matched only by the future SHs, not the current Emperors and their crews. Hell, not even close...except for maybe the Blackbeard Pirates.



The parallels you mention are thematic, Oda likes to do this a lot. Sanji being paralleled to his adoptive father. Nami being paralleled to Bellimore for caring about children. Usopp wanting to be like his father. It has nothing to do with PLs.


The only PL benchmarks explicitly stated are for Luffy and Emperors/Admirals, and Zoro and Mihawk. Rayleigh is a mentor to Luffy, he’s not relevant PL-wise nor does Oda make him out to be as such. Yes he was strong in his prime, but whatever strength he had at his prime just isn’t relevant, there are no parallels when it comes to this. Whatever strength Luffy/Zoro will have at the end have no bearing to Rayleigh.

Oda didn’t even bother to showcase or highlight Prime Rayleigh’s strength in the Oden flashback, yet he made a case for Roger and WB. Both are far more relevant PL-wise and not Rayleigh.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 18, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> The point is why would Prime Rayleigh be on the marines' tongues, and not the actual shared origin of the 2 characters (BM+Kaido) in question? He's simply not relevant thematically at all to their union.


"Why would someone I claim is far stronger than the Yonko not be on the Marine's tongue when discussing the greatest threat to ever be posed by Pirates?"
This is a rather ludicrous position. Big mom and Kaido's connection to the Rocks Pirate is not nearly as thematically important as the threat they posed due to their strength. 

If you are claiming that a Pirate crew already had a much stronger person who wasn't even the captain, then that is sure as fuck thematically important to the question of the greatest pirate threat the marines had ever faced.



Datassassin said:


> WB, and everyone else, was seeing that WB had clearly immensely weakened from his prime days to be injured in the fashion that he was. This still doesn't mean anyone could, or would, defeat him 1v1.


It doesn't mean anyone couldn't defeat him 1v1. Old WB was no longer the strongest Man. Again, getting impaled by scrubs like Squardo effectively destroyed that narrative. 




Datassassin said:


> There's nothing in the manga nor in the SBS interviews that show WB was actually the WSM while Roger floated around. The WSM title itself is heavily predicated on the acknowledged capacity of WB to _match_ Roger, so with Roger gone, he clearly would be the WSM.



Ummm.....




Datassassin said:


> There's blatantly a lot of detail missing, and yet the Rocks crew is still the direct thematic tie to invoke for in-universe characters discussing the BM-Kaido team-up.


They are because they are considered as the greatest threat in the Marine's history. Big mom and Kaido's alliance drew parallels almost entirely due to their strength as Yonko.




Datassassin said:


> It sure wasn't 14 years before the dude's death at 53 though, which is a long time any way you slice it. Barring lack of effort, maiming, etc., *One Piece characters shouldn't be peaking at 39. *Especially not the main character the story was laid out by.


For real bruh, are you sure you're not trolling?  


Datassassin said:


> I don't troll about these sort of things lmao, or in general usually on here. The designation of a Yonko is not close to the impressiveness of the Pirate King; it's 4 people and their forces unable to safely defeat one another for ages, strength-peers of a *degraded* former equal to the PK, managing territory and not truly advancing towards most of their real goals of reigning supreme or of reaching One Piece. Maybe super-far in the past I'd have thought otherwise, but now that we've seen Old WB, Kaido, and Big Mom in action along with the operations of the latter two...I am not impressed with the Yonko brand.


The title of PK obviously requires strength but relies far more on luck. Roger was lucky that the right person (Oden) cane around when he was ready for the final voyage. Roger was lucky a storm struck in just the right way and moment that it wiped out Shiki's forces. Heck he never defeated a single Yonko throughout his career.

No doubt Roger was among the top dog in his day,but just about every impressive feat he ever accomplished (you remember feats, right? The thing that actually matters in a debate of facts) have been replicated by just about every single Yonko.

Advanced CoCA? ✓
Island spanning shock waves?✓
Sky splitting?✓

Roger as PK put him thematically above the Yonko, however in terms of pure strength, they were all very much rivals.


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## J★J♥ (Jun 18, 2021)

Oden=>Kaido>> Prime Rayleigh


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## Mihawk (Jun 18, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Prime WB wasn’t on another “level” like mid-diffing current Emperors. Emperors arein a deadlock because of their *crews*. Not the individuals themselves.


Well of course he's not mid-diffing the current Emperors, and never in my posts did I suggest or say that.

If Rayleigh can give his captain a high-difficulty fight, he is Yonko level. It's that simple really. No Yonko has proven they could likely give the PK an extreme-diff battle yet, as the manga explicitly shows that Roger/WB existed on a higher pedestal.



LightningForce said:


> The parallels you mention are thematic, Oda likes to do this a lot. Sanji being paralleled to his adoptive father. Nami being paralleled to Bellimore for caring about children. Usopp wanting to be like his father. It has nothing to do with PLs.


Those parallels have nothing to do with Rayleigh's parallel with Zoro at all.

They are different people but Zoro is on track to matching or surpassing his accomplishments and legends, while occupying a similar role on his own crew. There are levels to thematic parallels. Zoro doesn't need a relationship with Rayleigh for the thematic overlaps to make sense. 


LightningForce said:


> The only PL benchmarks explicitly stated are for Luffy and Emperors/Admirals, and Zoro and Mihawk. Rayleigh is a mentor to Luffy, he’s not relevant PL-wise nor does Oda make him out to be as such. Yes he was strong in his prime, but whatever strength he had at his prime just isn’t relevant, there are no parallels when it comes to this. Whatever strength Luffy/Zoro will have at the end have no bearing to Rayleigh.



Oh wait, I forgot you were very clear on your stance before  IIrc you don't believe it's necessary for Luffy to equal or surpass Roger, right? If so, then we disagree at a fundamental level.

Also, Luffy actually doesn't care about Emperors/Admirals. He said so in Dressrosa and has only expressed his wish to be Pirate King about a million times. His benchmark is Shanks, but his final goal will inevitably take him to where Roger was at some point. The same can be applied to Zoro even if Rayleigh has no relation to him in the plot...by reaching where the Roger Pirates were at the end of their journey, Luffy and Zoro inevitably come close to matching their accomplishments, putting them at a similar level.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 18, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> the manga explicitly shows that Roger/WB were on a higher level.


I am curious. How was this shown exactly?


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## Mihawk (Jun 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> I am curious. How was this shown exactly?



-Whitebeard being a Yonko, past his prime.
-Roger & WB's titles
-Whitebeard being called the man closest to One Piece
-Doflamingo's speech on the Throne Wars
-Other statements by numerous characters regarding WB, even after his death
-This: "Only he who stands *atop *those supreme kings, can be called King of the Pirates..."

-And this




There are other supplementary hints, from retired PK's right hand fighting on par with an Admiral; Old Whitebeard beating the strongest Admiral; Old Garp, etc. Hell, even Mihawk conceded that Pirate King was on another level from his own title of WSS. Legends > current Yonko and top tiers, although I do think the current era is more competitive and has more quantity of quality since we're in the Great Age of Pirates.

I guess you could make an argument for Shanks being Roger level, but ehh I don't think any of the current Yonko including Kaido were Roger level. Got a hard time believing that's what Oda's going for. He's showed us that the Yonko can replicate the feats of the Pirate King, but we've seen far more from Kaido/BM's arsenal than we have from Roger and WB.

So far, Pirate King > Yonko. Roger was stronger than all of them with Primebeard as his only confirmed equal. Yonko could all probably give Roger a high-diff fight but that's about it. IMO same goes for Ray...

Reactions: Winner 1


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## LightningForce (Jun 18, 2021)

Pirateer said:


> If old, rusty Rayleigh is able to stalemate Kizaru for some time (although I think Kizaru would eventually high diff him), how strong do you think Prime Rayleigh and current Luffy are? Do you think Luffy has surpassed Prime Rayleigh yet? Also how much stronger do you think Prime Rayleigh is compared to old Rayleigh?



Prime Rayleigh to me is about as strong as an Admiral (C3 trio level) whom I put below Emperors. As much as cats like to harp on the age aspect, strength doesn’t decline that *significantly* with age otherwise BM would not be on the same level as hybrid Kaido, WB would not be able to two-shot Akainu.

Aspects like physical health handicap them instead, BM being fat and WB being sick. Garp could likely pack as big of a punch as he did back in the days but he would tire out quicker or some other detriment




Pirateer said:


> Don't think it's canon but they had Scopper fighting Oden in the anime instead of Rayleigh, if they wanted to portray Prime Rayleigh = Oden then they could have easily done that. On top of that I think Prime Rayleigh is stronger than Oden who is considered to be close/similar to Admiral level and was on track to defeat Kaido (admittedly a weaker version from 20 years ago). At the absolute worst, Kaido would need high diff to defeat Prime Rayleigh and that's imo at the absolute worst. Prime Rayleigh should be near Yonko level, it doesn't make sense for him to be like YC1 or Marco level imo



Anime isn’t canon. Anime Doflamingo’s God thread more durable against King Kong Gun, they made BM with Haki struggle more against G4 Luffy, they made Kaido go up equally against Oden.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mihawk (Jun 18, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Prime Rayleigh to me is about as strong as an Admiral (C3 trio level) whom I put below Emperors.


Yeah, and this is another crucial point of disconnect in this thread in regards to where people disagree. Essentially, where people place the Admirals in relation to the Emperors, has a lot to do with the impact of projecting Ray's assumed "power level".


LightningForce said:


> As much as cats like to harp on the age aspect, strength doesn’t decline that *significantly* with age otherwise BM would not be on the same level as hybrid Kaido, WB would not be able to two-shot Akainu.
> 
> Aspects like physical health handicap them instead, BM being fat and WB being sick. Garp could likely pack as big of a punch as he did back in the days but he would tire out quicker or some other detriment



But weren't you guys arguing that Whitebeard's reactions had dulled so significantly he couldn't dodge fodder throughout the War? I have a hard time believing that an old, sick, dying bloodlusted Whitebeard with half his face gone has quite the same level of output as a bloodlusted punch from his prime packing all his power, even if he was running on pure adrenaline and rage against Akainu.

As for Garp, he admitted he got weaker in pure strength. Ray implied he could've done significantly better in Sabaody in his younger days.


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## LightningForce (Jun 18, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> If Rayleigh can give his captain a high-difficulty fight, he is Yonko level. It's that simple really. No Yonko has proven they could likely give the PK an extreme-diff battle yet, as the manga explicitly shows that Roger/WB existed on a higher pedestal.



BM would have crushed WB and his crew, along with other Emperors with Elbaf. Meaning that it is extreme-diff either way among all Emperors, except perhaps old WB since he was heavily sick. Roger snuck around BM’s territory when she was younger. 



Mihawk said:


> Those parallels have nothing to do with Rayleigh's parallel with Zoro at all.
> 
> They are different people but Zoro is on track to matching or surpassing his accomplishments and legends, while occupying a similar role on his own crew. There are levels to thematic parallels. Zoro doesn't need a relationship with Rayleigh for the thematic overlaps to make sense.



Loyalty >>>> Power levels. Zoro is the default leader or voice when Luffy is not around or isn’t acting like a captain. It’s not a matter of PLs



Mihawk said:


> Oh wait, I forgot you were very clear on your stance before  IIrc you don't believe it's necessary for Luffy to equal or surpass Roger, right? If so, then we disagree at a fundamental level.
> 
> Also, Luffy actually doesn't care about Emperors/Admirals. He said so in Dressrosa and has only expressed his wish to be Pirate King about a million times. His benchmark is Shanks, but his final goal will inevitably take him to where Roger was at some point. The same can be applied to Zoro even if Rayleigh has no relation to him in the plot...by reaching where the Roger Pirates were at the end of their journey, Luffy and Zoro inevitably come close to matching their accomplishments, putting them at a similar level.



Luffy doesn’t *need* to surpass Roger at all. He _*could*_, as I acknowledged before, but his goal is to find One Piece which makes him automatically PK. Roger didn’t beat Linlin, didn’t beat WB, didn’t beat Shiki to do that.

And yes he does care in a PL-manner which is what I was referring to. That is why he keeps saying he’ll beat them all, why he chose to fight Fujitora instead of running away, why he keeps fighting impossible fights. BM, Kaido, Shanks, BB are his benchmarks. Zoro’s benchmark is Mihawk. Roger and WB may matter. No other PL in the series matters when it comes to being surpassed.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Datassassin (Jun 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> "Why would someone I claim is far stronger than the Yonko not be on the Marine's tongue when discussing the greatest threat to ever be posed by Pirates?"
> This is a rather ludicrous position. *Big mom and Kaido's connection to the Rocks Pirate is not nearly as thematically important as the threat they posed due to their strength.*
> 
> If you are claiming that a Pirate crew already had a much stronger person who wasn't even the captain, then that is sure as fuck thematically important to the question of the greatest pirate threat the marines had ever faced.


This is silly of you. Their shared history is the reason for their union, their shared crew is something that rocked the World Government to its core. The Rocks-based thematic value the modern union of BM and Kaido has is _inextricable_ from the strength that would be born of said union. Any Yonko combining forces would set off alarms, as the marines were shook pre-skip at Yonko even crossing paths, but the fact both of the captains in the BM-Kaido alliance were from such an infamous crew is what made it supremely special in the government's eyes. When half of the reigning pirates in the New World are pooling their resources, and those pirates were buddies from a crew especially antagonistic towards the government, people like Rayleigh shouldn't even come to mind.


Kroczilla said:


> It doesn't mean anyone couldn't defeat him 1v1. Old WB was no longer the strongest Man. Again, getting impaled by scrubs like Squardo effectively destroyed that narrative.


In no world, OPverse or otherwise, is getting injured the same as 'losing a fight'.


Kroczilla said:


> Ummm.....


It's a good thing I said "*nothing in the manga or SBS interviews*", huh You know, direct authorial things. The actual printed canon work being discussed and words from the writer's own mouth, which matter more than any other conceivable thing.


Kroczilla said:


> For real bruh, are you sure you're not trolling?


These are superhumans with a vast array of areas relevant for combat that can be improved up until their flesh prevents them from doing so. For _most_ characters actually trying to advance their power, and able to advance, the prime years would be in 50s. Effort-exerting characters _with potential_ aren't going to plateau in their 30s.


Kroczilla said:


> The title of PK obviously requires strength but *relies far more on luck*. Roger was lucky that the right person (Oden) cane around when he was ready for the final voyage. Roger was lucky a storm struck in just the right way and moment that it wiped out Shiki's forces.


Much of this story relies on luck/probability. I flatly disagree with the idea that characters could be substantially weaker than Roger but achieve the Pirate King title if they were more lucky than him, as any given Admiral or generational-star would have a serious shot at fading him. "Luck" gave Roger his COC (which we now know has combat applications), his meeting with Rayleigh, his VOAT, and his disease not impairing him in combat. Luck benefits most of the characters. You can only use "luck" in this way _so far_ when "unluckiness" can change anything to any extent.


Kroczilla said:


> Heck he never defeated a single Yonko throughout his career.


Yonko, 4 nigh-equal combatants with similarly strong forces impairing one another from achieving full control of the New World oceans, didn't exist in Roger's era. Yonko are a development of the seas from *his very absence* and WB's complacency after Roger's death.


Kroczilla said:


> No doubt Roger was among the top dog in his day,but just about every impressive feat he ever accomplished (you remember feats, right? The thing that actually matters in a debate of facts) have been replicated by just about every single Yonko.
> 
> Advanced CoCA? ✓
> Island spanning shock waves?✓
> Sky splitting?✓


Yes, we should dissect these feats you laud in this context. Weaponizing COC is not innately representative of a character's haki strength relative to another character's haki strength. The characters are using the same *methodology*, but that has nothing to do with their spiritual power's *potency* or even _volume_. Two people perform 10 roundhouse kicks upon identical objects, following the same technique. This doesn't guarantee equal damage to the objects, nor equal exertion, just because each party used the same methodology of strike.

A similar case lay for the range of haki shock waves; even DR Luffy clashing with DD created shockwaves throughout the entire island with their haki. It's a visually impressive thing, but it doesn't tell you how the combatants' haki measures up against the haki of people not involved in that clash. I no more think of all ACOC users as innately on par haki-wise than I do flying-slash users or Soru users.

Characters being able to do the same sort of technique does not in itself mean those characters are comparable, nor the effects of those techniques.


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## ShadoLord (Jun 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> One common theme I have noticed in this thread is a some folks making convenient use of the word "narrative" while completely ignoring same when it suits their purpose.
> 
> For example, the "two piece" opinion that Rayleigh is Yonko lvl despite the fact that a union of two Yonko in the actual storyline is regarded as an unprecedented event worthy of comparison to the greatest pirate force in history.
> 
> ...


When news of of Kaido and Big Mom teaming up against Luffy

Garp: pfft what a joke  

when news came about Rayleigh appearance on the human auction

Garp: you think we can handle two legends at the same time?!!!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sablés (Jun 18, 2021)

MO said:


> this is actually a good point. Big mom and kaido alliance was said to be the birthed of the strongest crew to ever exist.  That would be false if prime ray was yonko level.


It falls flat on its face on account of the fact that Yonko crews have way more than their captains, along with resources.
The Roger Pirates were a small crew of elite fighters but they can't do everything.


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## MO (Jun 18, 2021)

Sablés said:


> It falls flat on its face on account of the fact that Yonko crews have way more than their captains, along with resources.
> The Roger Pirates were a small crew of elite fighters but they can't do everything.


but the captain make up most of the crew power. So it still stands.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mihawk (Jun 18, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> BM would have crushed WB and his crew, along with other Emperors with Elbaf. Meaning that it is extreme-diff either way among all Emperors, except perhaps old WB since he was heavily sick. Roger snuck around BM’s territory when she was younger.


Yes, as you acknowledge, the stalemate is maintained in large part due to crew strength. Elbaf possesses the strongest military in the world. Big Mom said they would've helped her beat even Whitebeard.

We agree that it is extreme diff either way among Emperors. We also agree that young BM was a rival to Roger.


LightningForce said:


> *Loyalty* >>>> Power levels. *Zoro is the default leader or voice when Luffy is not around or isn’t acting like a captain*. It’s not a matter of PLs


The same goes for Rayleigh. All the similarities between them and their roles means that a comparison can be formulated and not be deflected. Zoro will be effectively be in the same position as Rayleigh was in his crew, which means Prime Ray will be close to Zoro if the comparison is to hold any weight.


LightningForce said:


> Luffy doesn’t *need* to surpass Roger at all. He _*could*_, as I acknowledged before, but his goal is to find One Piece which makes him automatically PK. Roger didn’t beat Linlin, didn’t beat WB, didn’t beat Shiki to do that.


Sure he doesn't have to, but he could. And Roger did beat Shiki at Edd War? He didn't beat WB but WB was the only one acknowledged to be his equal. Luffy is basically trying to beat the pirates whom competed with Roger, in order to bring himself closer to the One Piece and the title of Pirate King. Even if he doesn't surpass Roger, he is going to surpass the Yonko regardless.


LightningForce said:


> And yes he does care in a PL-manner which is what I was referring to. That is why he keeps saying he’ll beat them all, why he chose to fight Fujitora instead of running away, why he keeps fighting impossible fights. BM, Kaido, Shanks, BB are his benchmarks. Zoro’s benchmark is Mihawk. Roger and WB may matter. No other PL in the series matters when it comes to being surpassed.



Ah I see. Then we do agree in principle.

Still, if this is true then wouldn't Luffy surpassing his benchmarks without surpassing Roger and WB still place the latter 2 on a higher level? It would basically mean they remained untouchable.

As for the other points like the Admirals/Yonko, I think what I've learned from this thread is most of us agree in general but not on the details/little things. This means we're arguing over trivialities in spite of agreeing. For example, you have Prime Ray at C3 level which you place below the Yonko (?). For me, Prime Ray would be on Shanks/Mihawk level, but I also place them on the same level as Akainu/Aokiji (meaning I could see it being extreme-diff), so we may deviate there.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Sablés (Jun 18, 2021)

MO said:


> but the captain make up most of the crew power. So it still stands.


You're underestimating the advantage of numbers, which is hilarious when Big Mom was nearly killed by the efforts a broken down Zoro, Law, and Kidd. Kaido had to save her ass.


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## LightningForce (Jun 18, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Yes, as you acknowledge, the stalemate is maintained in large part due to crew strength. Elbaf possesses the strongest military in the world. Big Mom said they would've helped her beat even Whitebeard.
> 
> We agree that it is extreme diff either way among Emperors. We also agree that young BM was a rival to Roger.
> 
> ...



Arguing over trivialities despite agreeing in principle are what makes us OL tier specialists

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> This is silly of you. Their shared history is the reason for their union, their shared crew is something that rocked the World Government to its core. The Rocks-based thematic value the modern union of BM and Kaido has is _inextricable_ from the strength that would be born of said union. Any Yonko combining forces would set off alarms, as the marines were shook pre-skip at Yonko even crossing paths, but the fact both of the captains in the BM-Kaido alliance were from such an infamous crew is what made it supremely special in the government's eyes. When half of the reigning pirates in the New World are pooling their resources, and those pirates were buddies from a crew especially antagonistic towards the government, people like Rayleigh shouldn't even come to mind.


Notice how I said that their strength is far more important than the fact that they were once members of the strongest crew. Yes, the fact that they were once crewmate is important, but it doesn't compare to the lvl of strength that they have managed to achieve which is what gained them the lvl of infamy they possess in the first place. Their alliance birthed the strongest crew in history. This is canon fact. If Rayleigh measured up to any of those two, that would not have been the case.


Datassassin said:


> In no world, OPverse or otherwise, is getting injured the same as 'losing a fight'.



*Facepalm* where exactly did I say that WB getting injured = him losing? Go back, read what I said and come up with an actual response.



Datassassin said:


> It's a good thing I said "*nothing in the manga or SBS interviews*", huh You know, direct authorial things. The actual printed canon work being discussed and words from the writer's own mouth, which matter more than any other conceivable thing.


Yeah, it's a good thing even semi-canon literature >>>>>> the opinions of a random guy on the internet. Until directly contradicted by the author, it stands.


Datassassin said:


> These are superhumans with a vast array of areas relevant for combat that can be improved up until their flesh prevents them from doing so. For _most_ characters actually trying to advance their power, and able to advance, the prime years would be in 50s. Effort-exerting characters _with potential_ aren't going to plateau in their 30s.


This is by far the biggest reach I have ever seen in any debate. Shanks achieved Yonko status before his mid thirties. Mihawk was already regarded as WSS by that age. Are you seriously going to tell me neither have reached their prime?

Oden was in his thirties when he reached his prime. For fuck sakes, we are all going to see the SH members hit Thier prime and they aren't even in their thirties yet. 

At this point, you are basically just picking and choosing fanfic and trying to shoehorn then as canon.





Datassassin said:


> Much of this story relies on luck/probability. I flatly disagree with the idea that characters could be substantially weaker than Roger but achieve the Pirate King title if they were more lucky than him, as any given Admiral or generational-star would have a serious shot at fading him. "Luck" gave Roger his COC (which we now know has combat applications), his meeting with Rayleigh, his VOAT, and his disease not impairing him in combat. Luck benefits most of the characters. You can only use "luck" in this way _so far_ when "unluckiness" can change anything to any extent.


No one said a character substantially weaker than Roger would achieve PK status with luck alone. But the fact is moreso than his strength, Luck was the major factor without which he would never have achieved his dream.

He had his peers in terms of strength. WB, Big mom and Shiki. There has never been implied to be a significant gap in strength amongst the Great Pirates of his or any era. Heck, Shiki alone was able to take on the entirety of Marineford forces and it took Garp and Sengoku's combined strength to finally restrain him.

They were all peers in terms that f strength. Roger just had the most important factor in his side.


Datassassin said:


> Yonko, 4 nigh-equal combatants with similarly strong forces impairing one another from achieving full control of the New World oceans, didn't exist in Roger's era. Yonko are a development of the seas from *his very absence* and WB's complacency after Roger's death



Granted they didn't exist in their current format, but the persons who became Yonko did exist and Roger never defeated any of them.



Datassassin said:


> Yes, we should dissect these feats you laud in this context. Weaponizing COC is not innately representative of a character's haki strength relative to another character's haki strength. The characters are using the same *methodology*, but that has nothing to do with their spiritual power's *potency* or even _volume_.




Yeah, I would rather rely on the actual visuals from the actual manga than whatever "methodology" you're about to pull from your ass.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Datassassin (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Notice how I said that their strength is far more important than the fact that they were once members of the strongest crew. Yes, the fact that they were once crewmate is important, but it doesn't compare to the lvl of strength that they have managed to achieve which is what gained them the lvl of infamy they possess in the first place. Their alliance birthed the strongest crew in history. This is canon fact. If Rayleigh measured up to any of those two, that would not have been the case.





Kroczilla said:


> This is by far the biggest reach I have ever seen in any debate. Shanks achieved Yonko status before his mid thirties. Mihawk was already regarded as WSS by that age. Are you seriously going to tell me neither have reached their prime?
> 
> Oden was in his thirties when he reached his prime. For fuck sakes, we are all going to see the SH members hit Thier prime and they aren't even in their thirties yet.
> 
> At this point, you are basically just picking and choosing fanfic and trying to shoehorn then as canon.


It'd be one thing if your whole issue was with Rayleigh rationally being slightly weaker than Roger, and instead being way weaker for some reason like some commonplace underling, but instead you've managed to interpret the story as placing Big Mom/Kaido/Shanks on Roger's level and this is simply an intractable schism. In your lens, both Roger and Rayleigh are too low so to debate Rayleigh being above the Yonko, you'd need to get over Roger himself being above the Yonko.

Xebec's crew being stronger than the Roger Pirates at the time of their confrontation wouldn't equate to them being the strongest crew _in history_, per the aforementioned fourteen-year period of active piracy. Unless Xebec would never be surpassed by Roger in the following 14 years, the actual strongest crew in the story would be the version of the Roger Pirates that included Oden right before his return to Wano.

Your refusal to see how 14 damn years in One Piece should usually make a huge difference in strength is tied to your odd perception of superhumans in the story. The biology here is fantasy, exceeding IRL constraints in a great deal of ways; IRL we already have exceptional people able to improve themselves and their skills into their late thirties. The fact you think One Piece characters like the C3 or Kaido are *well out of their prime* is nonsensical, when portrayal does not support that at all. Swordsmen like Roger could continually improve their skills, acquire new tricks with the blade, their flesh, or haki into likely their early 50s. If a character has a DF, they then have even more levels upon which to improve with experience and experimentation. The Akainu of the present, 55 years old, is likely slightly stronger than a 52 year old Akainu who had not faced Old WB and Aokiji.

Mihawk absolutely _could_ continue to climb to greater heights if that was within his potential, and as we see, he sits around drinking wine while never facing challenging enemies. He seems to believe he's peaked and for Oda's purposes Mihawk doesn't _need_ to increase in strength (beyond Old WB level) just to give Zoro a decent fight at some point. Shanks' own potential for growth was limited by his mutilation, yet even he feasibly could improve as a combatant through haki or physical advancement. You're out here citing StrawHats like it would remotely make sense for characters to figure out and achieve *everything* they can accomplish as a combatant in this fantasy before the American drinking age. That'd be dumb as hell. "Sorry Usopp, sorry Franky, no haki or physical progress for you. Improved inventions? Aht-aht. You're 19 and 36, so your capabilities are all locked in for One Piece. " Zoro picked up Kinemon's foxfire style, which has added to his strength as a 21 year old. If he instead encountered Kinemon at 44 and picked up the foxfire style then, that would be an increase in strength. You're thinking shallowly for such a story.


Kroczilla said:


> *Facepalm* where exactly did I say that WB getting injured = him losing? Go back, read what I said and come up with an actual response.


You have *twice* said that WB getting stabbed by Squardo means that the narrative of WB being the WSM was void. I have highlighted for you how the only way the WSM designation would be made false would be for WB to lose a 1v1, under 'normal' circumstances (aka not at the end of MF, after his mountain of injuries).


Kroczilla said:


> Yeah, it's a good thing even semi-canon literature >>>>>> the opinions of a random guy on the internet. Until directly contradicted by the author, it stands.


"Semi-canon" is a cute term but let's look at what is really being said. Is a piece of information from the *creator* of a work in question, or is it *not*? That's all that matters. Most people don't attempt to cite filler anime feats either for a reason. A number of posters on here shakily cite things Oda *didn't* state or draw, things clearly in opposition to the story as written and drawn, whenever it's believed to be convenient for random arguments. You saw that WB is not called the WSM while Roger lived in the manga, and you also saw the obvious reasoning for why WB would be called the WSM after Roger died in the manga, so I'm not about to entertain protracted Infallible Databook Discourse.


Kroczilla said:


> He had his peers in terms of strength. WB, Big mom and Shiki. There has never been implied to be a significant gap in strength amongst the Great Pirates of his or any era. Heck, Shiki alone was able to take on the entirety of Marineford forces and* it took Garp and Sengoku's combined strength to finally restrain him.*


For a great deal of points of portrayal and implied/explicit feats, _no_, BM & Shiki are not shown to be on Roger's or Prime WB's strength level but giving a warranted rebuke would really move farther away from the thread's Ray v Kaido premise. Towards the bolded: I'm a fan of Shiki's concept, I likely have rated him higher than some posters in prior threads, but Prime Garp and Sengoku together likely beat his ass without any real threat of defeat on the marines' horizons. The point of Sengoku and Garp teaming up was to mitigate damage and subdue him quickly, which they succeeded in, knowing Shiki's potential to simply destroy the whole island. Garp and Sengoku were not both *necessary* to defeat Shiki, as they teamed up for efficiency.


Kroczilla said:


> Granted they didn't exist in their current format, but the persons who became Yonko did exist and Roger never defeated any of them.


Who would care if Roger gets a panel showing him having defeated DFless, base-weaker-than-when-Oden-got-to-him Kaido? Roger couldn't be defeated by Prime WB, which is worth more than him not getting panels of stunting on perpetually-pregnant early-30s BM or Shiki without his historic armada.


Kroczilla said:


> Yeah, I would rather rely on the actual visuals from the actual manga than whatever "methodology" you're about to pull from your ass.


_Awesome_, so I can confirm that you think users of the same techniques are equal in strength _and execution of those techniques_, yea? So Luffy is Prime WB level now for having coated his strikes in COC and Marigold was secretly as strong as Old Ray for having known barrier COA. We love to see it

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> It'd be one thing if your whole issue was with Rayleigh rationally being slightly weaker than Roger, and instead being way weaker for some reason like some commonplace underling, but instead you've managed to interpret the story as placing Big Mom/Kaido/Shanks on Roger's level and this is simply an intractable schism. In your lens, both Roger and Rayleigh are too low so to debate Rayleigh being above the Yonko, you'd need to get over Roger himself being above the Yonko.


If you have any actual proof to the contrary, then by all means... Present it.

The story itself puts Shanks on the same tier as Roger and Prime WB. And he isn't any more powerful than the other Yonko.


Take up your issues with the author





Datassassin said:


> Xebec's crew being stronger than the Roger Pirates at the time of their confrontation wouldn't equate to them being the strongest crew _in history_, per the aforementioned fourteen-year period of active piracy.



Except for the fact that even in the current day, The Rocks Pirates are THE STANDARD as regards a powerful pirate crew. Again, take up your issues with the author.




Datassassin said:


> Your refusal to see how 14 damn years in One Piece should usually make a huge difference in strength is tied to your odd perception of superhumans in the story. The biology here is fantasy, exceeding IRL constraints in a great deal of ways; IRL we already have exceptional people able to improve themselves and their skills into their late thirties. *The fact you think One Piece characters like the C3 or Kaido are well out of their prime is nonsensical, when portrayal does not support that at all*. Swordsmen like Roger could continually improve their skills, acquire new tricks with the blade, their flesh, or haki into likely their early 50s. If a character has a DF, they then have even more levels upon which to improve with experience and experimentation. The Akainu of the present, 55 years old, is likely slightly stronger than a 52 year old Akainu who had not faced Old WB and Aokiji.




The fact that folks reach their prime doesn't mean they immediately start to decline in like the next second. That's just silly reasoning even by irl standards.

There is absolutely zero evidence that pre-marineford Akainu is stronger than his current version. However even IF that was the case, that has no bearing on the fact that a ton of characters in the manga hit their prime at fairly young ages.






Datassassin said:


> Mihawk absolutely _could_ continue to climb to greater heights if that was within his potential, and as we see, he sits around drinking wine while never facing challenging enemies. He seems to believe he's peaked and for Oda's purposes Mihawk doesn't _need_ to increase in strength (beyond Old WB level) just to give Zoro a decent fight at some point. Shanks' own potential for growth was limited by his mutilation, yet even he feasibly could improve as a combatant through haki or physical advancement. You're out here citing StrawHats like it would remotely make sense for characters to figure out and achieve *everything* they can accomplish as a combatant in this fantasy before the American drinking age. That'd be dumb as hell. "Sorry Usopp, sorry Franky, no haki or physical progress for you. Improved inventions? Aht-aht. You're 19 and 36, so your capabilities are all locked in for One Piece. " Zoro picked up Kinemon's foxfire style, which has added to his strength as a 21 year old. If he instead encountered Kinemon at 44 and picked up the foxfire style then, that would be an increase in strength. You're thinking shallowly for such a story.



There's too much nonsense to address here so I'll get right to the simple truth which is... You are conflating two completely different concepts. Reaching one's prime in terms of strength and going on to learn a new trick are two completely different thing.


Let me use an example that I think even you will understand.

>Current Rayleigh is no longer in his prime
>However based on his skill and experience he can certainly pick up a new skill (say, Firefox style) if he wanted to
>That wouldn't change the fact that he is no longer in his prime.




Datassassin said:


> You have *twice* said that WB getting stabbed by Squardo means that the narrative of WB being the WSM was void. I have highlighted for you how the only way the WSM designation would be made false would be for WB to lose a 1v1, under 'normal' circumstances (aka not at the end of MF, after his mountain of injuries).







Datassassin said:


> Semi-canon" is a cute term but let's look at what is really being said. Is a piece of information from the *creator* of a work in question, or is it *not*? That's all that matters. Most people don't attempt to cite filler anime feats either for a reason. A number of posters on here shakily cite things Oda *didn't* state or draw, things clearly in opposition to the story as written and drawn, whenever it's believed to be convenient for random arguments. You saw that WB is not called the WSM while Roger lived in the manga, and you also saw the obvious reasoning for why WB would be called the WSM after Roger died in the manga, so I'm not about to entertain protracted Infallible Databook Discourse


When I see actual info from the manga that contradicts the Data book, we can have a conversation. Till then, just take the "L", bruh.


Datassassin said:


> For a great deal of points of portrayal and implied/explicit feats, _no_, BM & Shiki are not shown to be on Roger's or Prime WB's strength level but giving a warranted rebuke would really move farther away from the thread's Ray v Kaido premise. Towards the bolded: I'm a fan of Shiki's concept, I likely have rated him higher than some posters in prior threads, but Prime Garp and Sengoku together likely beat his ass without any real threat of defeat on the marines' horizons. The point of Sengoku and Garp teaming up was to mitigate damage and subdue him quickly, which they succeeded in, knowing Shiki's potential to simply destroy the whole island. Garp and Sengoku were not both *necessary* to defeat Shiki, as they teamed up for efficiency.


At no point have BM and Shiki not been implied to be on the same lvl as Roger. Meanwhile, one of their peers is explicitly put in that same category i.e. they are on that lvl per canon lore.

Lol at the mental gymnastics on Shiki Vs Garp and Sengoku. Half of Marineford was destroyed. Not to mention if he wasn't on the same lvl as either of those two,then the battle would have been over in an instant and not resulted in that lvl of destruction. 

Heck per Oda's own words, Shiki belongs in the category of people WB mentioned (Roger, Garp, Sengoku)








Datassassin said:


> Who would care if Roger gets a panel showing him having defeated DFless, base-weaker-than-when-Oden-got-to-him Kaido? Roger couldn't be defeated by Prime WB, which is worth more than him not getting panels of stunting on perpetually-pregnant


Roger couldn't defeat any of the great pirates/current Yonko either. 






Datassassin said:


> _Awesome_, so I can confirm that you think users of the same techniques are equal in strength _and execution of those techniques_, yea? So Luffy is Prime WB level now for having coated his strikes in COC and Marigold was secretly as strong as Old Ray for having known barrier COA. We love to see it


Given that we just saw Luffy get dispatched the moment Kaido started to get excited...

Yeah, not a good point to make, chief.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 5


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> If you have any actual proof to the contrary, then by all means... Present it.
> 
> The story itself puts Shanks on the same tier as Roger and Prime WB. And he isn't any more powerful than the other Yonko.
> 
> ...


roger is stronger than the yonko hope this helps

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> roger is stronger than the yonko hope this helps


Uh huh.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Uh huh.


wait so you really think it's optimistic to think roger is stronger than the yonko or i'm optimistic for thinking the post will help?


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> wait so you really think it's optimistic to think roger is stronger than the yonko or i'm optimistic for thinking the post will help?


I tend to give the optimistic rating to certain posts cuz frankly I think the tier specialist rating is pretty dumb. 

In your case,it's given because I see no actual proof in your post. Just an opinion which counts for fuck all in my book.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> I tend to give the optimistic rating to certain posts cuz frankly I think the tier specialist rating is pretty dumb.
> 
> In your case,it's given because I see no actual proof in your post. Just an opinion which counts for *fuck all in my book.*


Very epic! and do you think roger isn't stronger?


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Very epic! and do you think roger isn't stronger?


You do understand the concept of "in the same tier", right?


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> You do understand the concept of "in the same tier", right?


you go first. is he or is he not stronger?


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> you go first. is he or is he not stronger?


Is Akainu stronger than Aokiji?
Are they on the same tier?

Answers those questions and you will have your answered yours.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Is Akainu stronger than Aokiji?
> Are they on the same tier?
> 
> Answers those questions and you will have your answered yours.


so you think that the yonko are basically equal to roger? mute.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> so you think that the yonko are basically equal to roger? mute.





Kroczilla said:


> The story itself puts Shanks on the same tier as Roger and Prime WB.


Btw I am going to ignore your next post if it just gonna be another question on points I have clearly laid out. Seems like a waste of everyone's time.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Btw I am going to ignore your next post if it just gonna be another question on points I have clearly laid out. Seems like a waste of everyone's time.


oden the guy who got hit like a homerun was up there too


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> oden the guy who got hit like a homerun was up there too


Oden who didn't know jack about AdCoc at the time. Nice try, pa.


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## Lord Melkor (Jun 19, 2021)

I think Prime Rayleigh is roughly equal to Shanks so basically Yonkou level, while Roger was a step above Yonkou. Voted Kaidou, but I could see it being extreme difficulty fight either way.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## sanninme rikudo (Jun 19, 2021)

Red Admiral said:


> there is nothing alarming about respecting on screen hype and feat ...
> I don't even consider Kaido WSM alive but admitting he done better than Shanks so far won't belittle Shanks (who I think is true strongest)
> 
> you know what's more alarming?
> ...


What the hell type of comparison is that? Obviously he has done better than Shanks in the feats department because Shanks is essentially featless. Kaido’s feats are going to look unparalleled because he has next to zero competition, considering the vast majority of top tiers are either featless or haven’t had a serious/major fight.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Datassassin (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> The story itself puts Shanks on the same tier as Roger and Prime WB. And he isn't any more powerful than the other Yonko.


The group of people depicted behind Luffy in the panel you're clinging to are pirates envisioned by Kaido, people who have managed to leave a particular impression on Kaido in his specific lived experience. To take that panel as some sort of affirmation of those characters all being on the same level is bizarre, especially considering Oden's inclusion with Prime WB and Roger. Big Mom, who had recently matched a stronger version of Kaido than the one Oden fought, is absent. Shiki is absent, despite having hailed from Rocks and having gunned for Roger. The panel simply is not usable as fodder for wayward powerlevel arguments, and Rayleigh's absence is immaterial to Kaido's personal fixation on other pirates.


Kroczilla said:


> Except for the fact that even in the current day, The Rocks Pirates are THE STANDARD as regards a powerful pirate crew. Again, take up your issues with the author.


The Rocks Crew is not the _standard of strength_ *any* given pirate crew is judged by. It was the most antagonistic pirate crew towards the government, incredibly infamous, and remnants of the crew obviously would see their old crew's name invoked when they start reminding people of that crew's prior existence by teaming up. Rocks wasn't brought up when the marines were concerned about WB and Shanks meeting, or Shanks and Kaido meeting, nor when the various Supernovae formed alliances.


Kroczilla said:


> The fact that folks reach their prime doesn't mean they immediately start to decline in like the next second. That's just silly reasoning even by irl standards.





Kroczilla said:


> You are conflating two completely different concepts. Reaching one's prime in terms of strength and going on to learn a new trick are two completely different thing.
> 
> 
> Let me use an example that I think even you will understand.
> ...





Kroczilla said:


> a ton of characters in the manga hit their prime at fairly young ages.


The idea that these fantasy characters in the OPverse, with their multitudes of relevant factors for combat, even plateau so early for you is silly. Your Rayleigh example is poor, because he's still atrophied and aged to the point of actual physical impairment in combat when compared to the skill and bodily strength he'd have previously wielded. Rayleigh increasing the amount of sword techniques he has now at *78* wouldn't be able to bridge the overall deficit in combat capability he's experienced from his 20+ years of aging and inactivity. Yet, an active 50-year-old Rayleigh learning how to generate and manipulate fire would be a clean raise in his combat capability (a net rise in strength) with no negatives to outweigh it. The hypothetical 50-year-old foxfire-mastering Rayleigh, not less physically sound than any younger iterations, would be _stronger_ than them. To look at an active OP character and say they've peaked at 39, as you're comfortable with saying for Roger, is unfortunate.

Individual potential for growth will vary as dictated by plot, but we should not assume characters (especially combat standouts) must experience a lack of growth in strength after their 30s because that doesn't line up with:
a) the portrayal of characters in their 40s and 50s
b) the logical capacity of characters to just acquire more, or better, traits as relevant for combat before their body starts weakening from age in the OPverse.


Kroczilla said:


>


WB is in the middle of pitying himself for his situation, and still doesn't think "I am not the strongest anymore". He acknowledges that with his deterioration, he would not be able to *remain* the strongest much longer.


Kroczilla said:


> When I see actual info from the manga that contradicts the Data book, we can have a conversation. Till then, just take the "L", bruh.


There's no L to take. You're clutching databooks and may as well be clutching anime feats if you want to fly in the face of the manga so badly.


Kroczilla said:


> At no point have BM and Shiki not been implied to be on the same lvl as Roger. Meanwhile, one of their peers is explicitly put in that same category i.e. they are on that lvl per canon lore.





Kroczilla said:


> Heck per Oda's own words, Shiki belongs in the category of people WB mentioned (Roger, Garp, Sengoku)


Shiki's stature and success on the seas was comparable to Roger's up until Shiki's defeat, 3 years before Roger's finale. Shiki was not on the actual strength level of Roger or WB, despite still being incredibly powerful. The fact Shiki needed to assemble an absurdly large armada to threaten Roger in the first place speaks volumes. Big Mom is even farther away. When future OPverse generations recall the present era of One Piece, Law and Kidd will stand out as "legendary contemporaries of Pirate King Luffy" who had sailed at the same time as him, despite them not actually being on his level of power.


Kroczilla said:


> Given that we just saw Luffy get dispatched the moment Kaido started to get excited...
> 
> Yeah, not a good point to make, chief.


Comrade, dearest fellow, please examine what it is that you have said. You put all ACOC users on the same level of strength by virtue of them using ACOC, because you sought to drag down Roger to the strength-level of Big Mom and Kaido. You sought to pretend that merely using that *technique*, the *method* of wrapping one's body in COC for protective and concussive value, means that all users of that technique do so with equal competency and with equal ease. I showed you examples of other characters using the same techniques despite being different strengths, like Marigold and Old Ray, or current Luffy and Prime WB, and this seems to have...blown on by you. Luffy was using the *same technique* of weaponizing COC that Roger, Prime WB, BM, and Kaido have demonstrated. He was *still not as strong* as any of them, and _strength already varies among them_.


Kroczilla said:


> Roger couldn't defeat any of the great pirates/current Yonko either.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Nikseng (Jun 19, 2021)

@Duhul10  sweating and checking the poll every 5 minutes

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 19, 2021)

Nikseng said:


> @Duhul10  sweating and checking the poll every 5 minutes


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> The group of people depicted behind Luffy in the panel you're clinging to are pirates envisioned by Kaido, people who have managed to leave a particular impression on Kaido in his specific lived experience. To take that panel as some sort of affirmation of those characters all being on the same level is bizarre, *especially considering Oden's inclusion with Prime WB and Roger*. Big Mom, who had recently matched a stronger version of Kaido than the one Oden fought, is absent. Shiki is absent, despite having hailed from Rocks and having gunned for Roger. The panel simply is not usable as fodder for wayward powerlevel arguments, and Rayleigh's absence is immaterial to Kaido's personal fixation on other pirates.



The group of people are folks whom Kaido believes can fight on par with him. They would all have to be on a similar lvl to be given that consideration. The reason for Big mom's absence is so obvious that I don't think any reasonable person would have any problem deducing why in that context, she wouldn't be included in Kaido's vision. Shiki's absence is less obvious though it doesn't change the fact that the author holds him in the same regards as Roger, WB and Garp.


@bolded, Oden was just like Luffy was before his fight with Kaido. He didn't know what AdCOc was. But it's quite clear that he picked up the skill and grew much stronger following his journey with Roger given that he used the same technique to permanently scar Kaido.


Rayleigh's absence simply means he just didn't make the cut. Its nothing to be ashamed of.






Datassassin said:


> The Rocks Crew is not the _standard of strength_ *any* given pirate crew is judged by. It was the most antagonistic pirate crew towards the government, incredibly infamous, and remnants of the crew obviously would see their old crew's name invoked when they start reminding people of that crew's prior existence by teaming up. Rocks wasn't brought up when the marines were concerned about WB and Shanks meeting, or Shanks and Kaido meeting, nor when the various Supernovae formed alliances.





Its worth noting that no other Pirate crew has ever been called the strongest. Even when WB was in his prime, his crew wasn't referenced as the strongest. Even Shanks crew at best got recognised as the most "balanced" crew never the strongest. Literally only one crew has ever been called that. The Rocks Pirates.

Rocks wasn't brought up when it was found out that Big mom and Kaido were meeting despite them both being Rocks alumns, so I don't see how it not being brought up before Shanks and Kaido/WB's meeting is an issue. It only came up because finally a crew worthy of comparison to the strongest crew came about as a result of an actual alliance between Yonkos.



Datassassin said:


> The idea that these fantasy characters in the OPverse, with their multitudes of relevant factors for combat, even plateau so early for you is silly. Your Rayleigh example is poor, because he's still atrophied and aged to the point of actual physical impairment in combat when compared to the skill and bodily strength he'd have previously wielded. Rayleigh increasing the amount of sword techniques he has now at *78* wouldn't be able to bridge the overall deficit in combat capability he's experienced from his 20+ years of aging and inactivity. Yet, an active 50-year-old Rayleigh learning how to generate and manipulate fire would be a clean raise in his combat capability (a net rise in strength) with no negatives to outweigh it. The hypothetical 50-year-old foxfire-mastering Rayleigh, not less physically sound than any younger iterations, would be _stronger_ than them. To look at an active OP character and say they've peaked at 39, as you're comfortable with saying for Roger, is unfortunate.



Again, you seem to be living in the bizzare world whereby characters start declining the moment they reach their prime.

Learning a new skill would MIGHT give you a slight advantage over a younger iteration, but it doesn't change the fact that you are already at your prime with respect to physical ability and most certainly use of haki, the primary measure of combat ability.

This argument becomes even more ludicrous when we consider the context within which it is being made which goes to show your lack of knowledge regarding the lore. Rocks is literally described as Roger's most formidable enemy period i.e. Subsequent enemies of Roger didn't quite measure up.
The battle to defeat Rocks is also the birth place of Harp's legend as The hero of the Marines. It smacks of delusion to argue that Roger and Garp weren't at least close to their prime to take down the most formidable opponent in their respective careers.



Datassassin said:


> Individual potential for growth will vary as dictated by plot, but we should not assume characters (especially combat standouts) must experience a lack of growth in strength after their 30s because that doesn't line up with:
> a) the portrayal of characters in their 40s and 50s
> b) the logical capacity of characters to just acquire more, or better, traits as relevant for combat before their body starts weakening from age in the OPverse



Again, there is a difference between learning a new skill and being in your prime. You are conflating two entirely different concepts.



Datassassin said:


> WB is in the middle of pitying himself for his situation, and still doesn't think "I am not the strongest anymore". He acknowledges that with his deterioration, he would not be able to *remain* the strongest much longer.


> Can't avoid attacks from scrubs
> Losing body bits to just about every attack from fodders
> Didn't dispute Crocodile's claim of him currently being a weakling

But he's tots still the strongest


That's without even mentioning the fact that the Ace novel made it clear. In terms of strength, Kaido >




Datassassin said:


> There's no L to take. You're clutching databooks and may as well be clutching anime feats if you want to fly in the face of the manga so badly.


>Thinks data books from editors who work with the author equals animators talking liberties with the source material


Yep, you can deny it all you want, but that's an L you just took, son.



Datassassin said:


> Shiki's stature and success on the seas was comparable to Roger's up until Shiki's defeat, 3 years before Roger's finale. Shiki was not on the actual strength level of Roger or WB, despite still being incredibly powerful. The fact Shiki needed to assemble an absurdly large armada to threaten Roger in the first place speaks volumes. Big Mom is even farther away. When future OPverse generations recall the present era of One Piece, Law and Kidd will stand out as "legendary contemporaries of Pirate King Luffy" who had sailed at the same time as him, despite them not actually being on his level of power.


More fanon from the makers of two piece. Shiki being Roger's peer is WOG. The fact that he decided to gather an armada is about as irrelevant to his standing as Luffy having a grand fleet.

I noticed how you curiously ignored the fact that Shiki took on Garp and Sengoku with half of Marineford being destroyed before they could restrain him. Almost like you are trying to be disingenuous or something...




And so now, it's not just that Shiki is far below Roger but now Big mom is far below both of them as well?



I have got to say, the lengths to which you are going for the sake of your Rayleigh wank is quite admirable.


Datassassin said:


> Comrade, dearest fellow, please examine what it is that you have said. You put all ACOC users on the same level of strength by virtue of them using ACOC, because you sought to drag down Roger to the strength-level of Big Mom and Kaido. You sought to pretend that merely using that *technique*, the *method* of wrapping one's body in COC for protective and concussive value, means that all users of that technique do so with equal competency and with equal ease. I showed you examples of other characters using the same techniques despite being different strengths, like Marigold and Old Ray, or current Luffy and Prime WB, and this seems to have...blown on by you. Luffy was using the *same technique* of weaponizing COC that Roger, Prime WB, BM, and Kaido have demonstrated. He was *still not as strong* as any of them, and _strength already varies among them_.




It would help if you actually read what was said



Kroczilla said:


> No doubt Roger was among the top dog in his day, *but just about every impressive feat* he ever accomplished (*you remember feats, right? The thing that actually matters in a debate of facts)* have been replicated by just about every single Yonko.
> 
> Advanced CoCA? ✓
> Island spanning shock waves?✓
> ...


Mentioning Marigold in the context of my post seems pretty retarded in hindsight. There's a difference between saying they all use the same technique and saying that they have so far achieved the same results using the same technique.

You claim that Rayleigh essentially beats Kaido without real trouble. In that case, you much also be ready to admit that the same much be the case for both WB and Shanks coz going by feats, Kaido and even big mom have replicated even their best feat still date (splitting the skies).

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Perrin (Jun 19, 2021)

Nikseng said:


> @Duhul10  sweating and checking the poll every 5 minutes


I used to think his faith was unshakable but then he changed his avatar


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## Duhul10 (Jun 19, 2021)

Perrin said:


> I used to think his faith was unshakable but then he changed his avatar


I was bored with it. I had it since before you even joined


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## Duhul10 (Jun 19, 2021)

Nikseng said:


> @Duhul10  sweating and checking the poll every 5 minutes


actually I don't really give a damn hell cause we're talking about a featless character. I mean I may as well say Yasopp is stronger than Marco. Things aren't that way, but I can still use some deranged type of scalling as there are no feats. Same here.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Perrin (Jun 19, 2021)

Duhul10 said:


> I was bored with it. I had it since before you even joined


But this new one isnt very colorful and is a bit creepy/disturbed. Are u doing a psychiatry rotation?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

Somehow missed this.



Mihawk said:


> Whitebeard being a Yonko, past his prime.


Big mom isn't exactly in her prime either and she is still a Yonko. There is also the fact that no one really knew just how badly WB had declined. Not even his right hand man.


Mihawk said:


> Roger & WB's titles


The PK title is more or less symbolic. For sure one needs a certain lvl itf strength to even be considered for the role, but strength isn't what gets you the throne. Luck/Fate plays are much bigger role 

The context behind WB's title was stated in the Ace novel. Also Kaido is called the WSC so there's that.


Mihawk said:


> Whitebeard being called the man closest to One Piece



Yeah. He had the most resources and respect of the wider pirate world to the point that even the SNs as far back as Sabody expressed lvls of disgust at the WG's attempts to paint WB as a traitor.

This doesn't change the fact that in terms of strength, the Yonko were all peers hence the deadlock.



Mihawk said:


> Doflamingo's speech on the Throne Wars


See above. Context counts for a lot.


Mihawk said:


> This: "Only he who stands *atop *those supreme kings, can be called King of the Pirates...


Did Roger stand atop WB? Or even Garp? In terms of prestige, sure he did. But in terms of strength, there is absolutely no basis to believe that this was the case.

And that's without mentioning the fact that Roger was practically at death's door by the time he became PK. Again, the title doesn't necessarily speak to strength.


Mihawk said:


> There are other supplementary hints, from retired PK's right hand fighting on par with an Admiral;


Roger's crew is similar to Shank's and Luffy's i.e. far above average crew mates.


Mihawk said:


> Old Whitebeard beating the strongest Admiral;


And said Admiral shut the fuck up the moment Shanks showed up despite his bloodlust. Again, peers.


Mihawk said:


> Old Garp


I don't get it. Did Old garp do something that say Big mom couldn't replicate?


Mihawk said:


> Hell, even Mihawk conceded that Pirate King was on another level from his own title of WSS


The PK is the more perilous journey no doubt about that. Unlike the journey to become WSS, becoming PK without having insane luck on your side is an impossible task regardless of your will power.


Mihawk said:


> Legends > current Yonko and top tiers,


At a point,I was convinced of this. Now though, particularly after seeing the mechanics of AdCoc being clarified, I just can't see any real justification to hold onto that belief.


Mihawk said:


> I guess you could make an argument for Shanks being Roger level, but ehh I don't think any of the current Yonko including Kaido were Roger level. Got a hard time believing that's what Oda's going for. He's showed us that the Yonko can replicate the feats of the Pirate King, but we've seen far more from Kaido/BM's arsenal than we have from Roger and WB.


Kaido and big mom are Shank's peers though. If you can make an argument for Shanks being Roger lvl, I see no reason why same can't be made for them.

Yeah, we have obviously seen more from Kaido and big mom in terms of variety. But we have seen Roger and Prime WB's most powerful clash on display. Unless there is some other ability of Haki that Oda us holding out on, I don't see any reason to think Big mom and Kaido couldn't replicate that especially given the insane shit they've pulled off so far.


Mihawk said:


> So far, Pirate King > Yonko. Roger was stronger than all of them with Primebeard as his only confirmed equal. Yonko could all probably give Roger a high-diff fight but that's about it. IMO same goes for Ray..


See above.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Duhul10 (Jun 19, 2021)

Perrin said:


> But this new one isnt very colorful and is a bit creepy/disturbed. Are u doing a psychiatry rotation?


No, I had some time on my hand to spend on Pinterest. Just searched gothic art and there it was.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> The group of people are folks whom Kaido believes can fight on par with him. They would all have to be on a similar lvl to be given that consideration. The reason for Big mom's absence is so obvious that I don't think any reasonable person would have any problem deducing why in that context, she wouldn't be included in Kaido's vision. Shiki's absence is less obvious though it doesn't change the fact that the author holds him in the same regards as Roger, WB and Garp.


Except your belief is predicated on the assumption that the list of people Kaido was referring to represents people that can fight on par with him, when it could very well be people that are capable of outright bodying him. It could even be both. Attempting to use that as evidence of every person on the list being on the same level is laughable.


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## Datassassin (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> The group of people are folks whom Kaido believes can fight on par with him.* They would all have to be on a similar lvl to be given that consideration. *The reason for Big mom's absence is so obvious that I don't think any reasonable person would have any problem deducing why in that context, she wouldn't be included in Kaido's vision. Shiki's absence is less obvious though it doesn't change the fact that the author holds him in the same regards as Roger, WB and Garp.





Kroczilla said:


> Rayleigh's absence simply means he just didn't make the cut. Its nothing to be ashamed of.


So _to you_, not only did _Roger_ not grow in strength between the ages of 39 and 53 from active piracy, but _Kaido_ also didn't grow from when he faced Oden to the present (decades in the future). You're not accounting for temporal context or personal bias of Kaido's.

Essentially, you're saying Oden (who didn't fight a younger hybrid-mode Kaido) = Prime WB = Prime Roger = current Kaido = Big Mom = Xebec, more or less. Oof.

We already know that the panel's list is:
-not truly a list of all characters who could fight 'on par' with Kaido
-not truly a list of all characters who would defeat Kaido
-not even a list of all _pirates_ who may have matched or defeated Kaido in battle _as you know and acknowledged_

It also uses characters from like three different 'eras' with Kaido's own *age and strength being different in each*. 1 - Xebec's era, when Kaido didn't even have a DF, during which all the future Yonko walking around at the time were still subordinates. 2 - Roger's era, when the Pirate King had further risen in power and fame in the next 14 years, near the end of which Kaido fought Oden without using his hybrid mode. 3 - The Yonko era after Roger's execution, where Kaido is stronger than ever before and with greater resources than he has previously wielded, _still_ not stronger than an elderly WB up until at least WB's death.

Thus as much as you would like to believe otherwise, the panel is more symbolic of Kaido's vision and values than it is representative of any *objective* OPverse power-ranking. Kaido is not an objective, omniscient speaker. If you believe he _is_, I can see how you would so blithely buy into random characters in the story claiming Kaido as the strongest entity alive and run with it as you have before.


Kroczilla said:


> Oden was just like Luffy was before his fight with Kaido. He didn't know what AdCOc was. But it's quite clear that he picked up the skill and grew much stronger following his journey with Roger given that he used the same technique to permanently scar Kaido.


Oden, even if he was using the actual same technique as Roger/Prime WB did on their weapons with the same control, still 'only' scarred the long-memed full-dragon-mode Kaido. That's a _weaker _dragon mode Kaido than the one we have in the present, which has been shredded by *a list* of characters lower in power still to Oden.
Back then, the Rocks Crew likely was the strongest crew in the world; I have no issue with this because it doesn't at-all affect my evaluation of the Roger Pirates. Why? Because unlike you, I think it's clear _growth would happen in 14 years after the Rocks defeat_, and you do not. Aside from a Roger Pirate crew minus 14 years of development and Oden, *what other pirate crews would even be contenders at the time*? This was before the "great age of piracy" that saw an increase in the desire of people to test their luck rampaging on the ocean. Shiki didn't have his armada, Big Mom wasn't running her family as an independent pirate crew, and Kaido had nothing.


Kroczilla said:


> Its worth noting that no other Pirate crew has ever been called the strongest. Even when WB was in his prime, his crew wasn't referenced as the strongest. Even Shanks crew at best got recognised as the most "balanced" crew never the strongest.


Prime WB *didn't* wield the strongest crew after the demise of Rocks and before Roger's death, so nobody stating his crew then was the strongest makes sense. After Roger's death, WB himself was the strongest individual pirate, but the seas now had other strong crews that may have been judged by characters as too-competitive with the quality of WB's crew (including fledgling-Marco for example) to warrant a firm label.


Kroczilla said:


> Rocks wasn't brought up when it was found out that Big mom and Kaido were meeting despite them both being Rocks alumns, so I don't see how it not being brought up before Shanks and Kaido/WB's meeting is an issue. It only came up because finally a crew worthy of comparison to the strongest crew came about as a result of an actual alliance between Yonkos


You said the Rocks Crew was the strength-standard against which all pirate crews, and pirate alliances, would be judged. I have pointed out that the Rocks crew is only invoked by in-universe characters familiar with Big Mom and Kaido's shared history, who can see the thematic relevance of 2 members of the crew _that tried to screw the government_ joining back together and pooling *50% of the generally-oppositional powers of the Yonko*. You're too wrapped up in trying to prove "Rocks was the bestest crew ever and they stay on everyone's mind" to see the obvious & elementary reasons for characters recalling Rocks when thinking about BM+Kaido's crew alliance.


Kroczilla said:


> Rocks is literally described as Roger's most formidable enemy period i.e. Subsequent enemies of Roger didn't quite measure up.
> The battle to defeat Rocks is also the birth place of Harp's legend as The hero of the Marines. It smacks of delusion to argue that Roger and Garp weren't at least close to their prime to take down the most formidable opponent in their respective careers.


Xebec being Roger's "first and greatest enemy" in Sengoku's words, _as someone who seemingly wasn't even there_, is not a pure powerlevel affair. Roger, for some reason, opposed the actions of the Rocks Crew to an extreme extent. WB and Roger were amicable rivals as highlighted by the loot game/gift exchange; _their_ dynamic is not what has been implied with Xebec and Roger.

The only figure present at God Valley who was likely at their peak was Xebec, even if only practically since that's where he died. Roger, Garp, Ray if he was present, DFless Kaido, etc. all increased in strength from that point onward. This was 8 years before Garp dented Chinjao, which he admitted he *trained* for.


Kroczilla said:


> Learning a new skill would MIGHT give you a slight advantage over a younger iteration, but it doesn't change the fact that you are already at your prime with respect to physical ability and most certainly use of haki, the primary measure of combat ability.


Lmao, "might". Acquisition of skills is a main way characters in this fantasy strengthen in the first place, beyond stat raising. 'Skills' are incredibly broad, and even broader for characters with DFs. Depending on the skill, and the level of that skill, a character's strength in combat can be substantially changed. It's baffling how one can look at a packed fantasy like One Piece and have such a blind approach to analysis of characters' strengths.

Even *only* looking at advancement of haki:
-COO range can widen
-COO general activity can be made more casual
-Future-sight can be accessed and made both more casual and more far-seeing
-The strength of Hardening can increase
-The degree to which COA can be projected outside of the body can increase, along with the force
-The 'pool' of haki itself, the mysterious 'haki reserves', can increase
-The strength of COC can increase, along with its range
-The coating of COC can be made more casual and tougher


Kroczilla said:


> > Can't avoid attacks from scrubs
> > Losing body bits to just about every attack from fodders
> > Didn't dispute Crocodile's claim of him currently being a weakling
> 
> But he's tots still the strongest


The degeneration of WB is what made his *authorial designation* as a character who still wouldn't lose a normal 1v1 fight so impressive. With haki control on the fritz, WB still would manage to beat down any single combatant before him. WB also suffered additional durability issues in how even in those moments of functioning haki, Hardening didn't exist as a defense mechanism yet.


Kroczilla said:


> _ Ace novel [*not written by Oda and with many past figures/plot points mysteriously absent from the manga]_





Kroczilla said:


> >Thinks data books from editors who work with the author equals animators talking liberties with the source material


What you're struggling so hard to avoid is that there's a world of difference between content the *creator* of a story makes, and things that the creator says, and things made or said by people *other* than that creator who are *not* actually in control of the story. You should rely on things from Oda in this sort of discourse or keep it on the playground.


Kroczilla said:


> More fanon from the makers of two piece. Shiki being Roger's peer is WOG. *The fact that he decided to gather an armada is about as irrelevant to his standing as Luffy having a grand fleet.*


Shiki, "*The Flying Pirate*", could have met with Roger to propose his final plan without the need of even a single ship, not unlike how Shiki visited WB. He rolled up *with the full armada* to intimidate Roger into acquiescing, and _Roger himself says Shiki is trying to pressure him _before the very next panel reveals the scope of the legion. Shiki felt that his presence alone would not, in fact, sufficiently intimidate Roger.


Kroczilla said:


> I noticed how you curiously ignored the fact that Shiki took on Garp and Sengoku with half of Marineford being destroyed before they could restrain him. Almost like you are trying to be disingenuous or something...


I've done no such thing in this thread. Garp alone could have fucked Shiki up, but the marine objective was not "defeat Shiki". It was "defeat Shiki before he destroys the island". With Shiki's abilities, he could have easily risen the island, flipped it, and dropped it. It would be incredibly easy for Shiki to have destroyed every standing structure built upon that land with his earth-manipulation alone given enough time, so the lack of severe damage and the island remaining where it started proves that Shiki was overwhelmed before things could get out of hand.


Kroczilla said:


> *now *Big mom is far below both of them as well?


Big Mom has always been below Roger, and Shiki is more vague. He's at minimum on her level, that of the modern Yonko/Admirals.


Kroczilla said:


> Mentioning Marigold in the context of my post seems pretty retarded in hindsight. There's a difference between saying they all use the same technique and saying that they have *so far achieved the same results using the same technique*.


Except the ACOC users have not all achieved the same results as one another. Roger matched a WB *far stronger* than the old, ill one who was superior to Kaido and Big Mom 2 years ago in the OPverse. These characters are using a technique, and you delusionally think the offensive value of that technique is the same. You absurdly think that the ease with which that technique is executed and maintained is the same, *by virtue of characters able to use ACOC at all*. This doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Nothing guarantees a COC-shroud-user strength equality with other COC-shroud-users, just as COA barrier users have no innate similarity of strength or haki quality.


Kroczilla said:


> You claim that Rayleigh essentially beats Kaido without real trouble. In that case, you much also be ready to admit that the same much be the case for both WB and Shanks coz going by feats, Kaido and even big mom have replicated even their best feat still date (splitting the skies).


Defeating a character as strong as Kaido wouldn't be easy for anyone, but Rayleigh will be fine afterwards. He has no risk of losing or of permanent injury, which is why my initial post rejected the idea that "extreme difficulty" would be necessary for Ray to win. As you can plainly see from that post and the ones of mine that have followed, of course I would have a similar stance on Ray vs anyone else not stronger than Old WB. There are inevitably only slight differences in strength among the Yonko and C3.

Reactions: Like 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Oden who didn't know jack about AdCoc at the time. Nice try, pa.


That literally doesn’t matter. It’s about portrayal. Roger is portrayed as utterly dominating. Kaido and the yonko are not. Stop playing chess when oda is playing checkers.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## LightningForce (Jun 19, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> That literally doesn’t matter. It’s about portrayal. Roger is portrayed as *utterly dominating*. Kaido and the yonko are not. Stop playing chess when oda is playing checkers.



No he isn't. He's constantly portrayed as happy go lucky, aloof, sickly, humble.

He bowed to Oden and begged him to come on his ship.

He's wanked off to Oden as much as the rest of his crewmates.

He claimed his son would be the next person to find One Piece, without a clue of how his absence would affect his son's state of mind.

He's also portrayed as fearless, but not invincible. He almost lost to Shiki's armada were it not for some lucky storm.

Roger's clash with WB is the best feat he's ever had. Impressive but hardly "utterly dominating."


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## juju15112 (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> One common theme I have noticed in this thread is a some folks making convenient use of the word "narrative" while completely ignoring same when it suits their purpose.
> 
> For example, the "two piece" opinion that Rayleigh is Yonko lvl despite the fact that a union of two Yonko in the actual storyline is regarded as an unprecedented event worthy of comparison to the greatest pirate force in history.
> 
> ...


Then how is Luffy and Zoro on the same crew.


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## trance (Jun 19, 2021)

holy wall of texts

yall must be bored to write these essays one after another

Reactions: Funny 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 19, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> No he isn't. He's constantly portrayed as happy go lucky, aloof, sickly, humble.
> 
> He bowed to Oden and begged him to come on his ship.
> 
> ...


oden the guy who sliced up the world strongest creature was batting practice for him. he's a goof ball personality wise but combat wise the best anyone has done is match him and that was the current era's wsm not having heart attacks and going from no haki to the highest level. personality and combat are constantly separable in shonen. goku, hashirma, naruto, hell luffy, etc


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## Datassassin (Jun 19, 2021)

Trance said:


> holy wall of texts
> 
> yall must be bored to write these essays one after another

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Karma (Jun 19, 2021)

Trance said:


> holy wall of texts
> 
> yall must be bored to write these essays one after another


Just wait for wen Yamato joins the SHs and we get a massive thread abt ppl argueing how shes the only one who wont surpass her analogue (Oden) as that would put him definitely below Rayleigh and Gaben.

I can slready see the arguments too. Niggas bringing up how Bellamy didnt surpass Doffy, and the counter argument that he doesnt recognize Doffy as his idol anymore.


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## Dead Precedence (Jun 19, 2021)

Karma said:


> Just wait for wen Yamato joins the SHs and we get a massive thread abt ppl argueing how shes the only one who wont surpass her analogue (Oden) as that would put him definitely below Rayleigh and Gaben.
> 
> I can slready see the arguments too. Niggas bringing up how Bellamy didnt surpass Doffy, and the counter argument that he doesnt recognize Doffy as his idol anymore.


This pedantic level of bickering over the most minuscule details is what makes forums fun lol.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Except your belief is predicated on the assumption that the list of people Kaido was referring to represents people that can fight on par with him, when it could very well be people that are capable of outright bodying him. It could even be both. Attempting to use that as evidence of every person on the list being on the same level is laughable.



Well it's a good thing the author was awfully specific about the context of Kaido's statement


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> That literally doesn’t matter. It’s about portrayal. Roger is portrayed as utterly dominating. Kaido and the yonko are not. *Stop playing chess when oda is playing checkers.*


.......

Roger is portrayed "utterly dominating" but Kaido, the guy who has been clapping cheeks left, right and centre for over two dozen chapters now is not.

I presume this means you have run out of actual things to say, correct?


Also @bolded I don't know what else to tell you. The author clearly put Oden up there with those folks.


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## Karma (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Well it's a good thing the author was awfully specific about the context of Kaido's statement


"Capable of fighting me"

Alright. U wanna put Garp, Sengoku, BM, Akainu and Mihawk all below Oden?


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

juju15112 said:


> Then how is Luffy and Zoro on the same crew.


The SHs are literally going the succeed where Rocks and the others failed. It would make sense that they become the strongest crew particularly when you take the grand fleet into account.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2021)

I see nothing wrong with Rogers right hand being at the level of an Emperor. Oda seems to have all of the Emperors recruit people that would be great pirates in their own right. The Pirate King having a Yonko/Admiral level character under his command seems fitting.


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## Karma (Jun 19, 2021)

He doesnt even say "beat me" too

How tf do ppl still take that panel seriously

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

Karma said:


> "Capable of fighting me"
> 
> Alright. U wanna put Garp, Sengoku, BM, Akainu and Mihawk all below Oden?


That just means that at best, they are all on a similar tier. Noticed how I have emphasized the word "tier" coz it literally doesn't matter who among them is maybe marginally stronger. Them being on the same tier is all that counts.


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## Karma (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> That just means that at best, they are all on a similar tier. Noticed how I have emphasized the word "tier" coz it literally doesn't matter who among them is maybe marginally stronger. Them being on the same tier is all that counts.


Nah mate, thats not in the 100% not symbolic panel.

Between Oden and Prime Garp who do u think wins the majority of the fights?


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

Karma said:


> He doesnt even say "beat me" too
> 
> How tf do ppl still take that panel seriously


I get it... Sometimes is disappointing when the author doesn't buy into the tier list made by dedicated fans.


But it isn't something to be this butthurt over.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

Karma said:


> Nah mate, thats not in the 100% not symbolic panel.
> 
> *Between Oden and Prime Garp who do u think wins the majority of the fights?*


I am not going to get slide lined here.

And the panel is 100% symbolic .... Showing the people the author believes can fight Kaido.

Its funny how people twist themselves into pretzels just to avoid reality of an statement explicitly made by the author.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Karma (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> I get it... Sometimes is disappointing when the author doesn't buy into the tier list made by dedicated fans.
> 
> 
> But it isn't something to be this butthurt over.


Ironic coming from the guy who ran way from the Zoro CoC threads


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

Karma said:


> Ironic coming from the guy who ran way from the Zoro CoC threads


Ran away from....

I was literally the first to submit my concession the moment the spoilers came out even when they weren't 100% confirmed.

If I am proven wrong on an issue, I concede. Its that simple. If ZKK actually happened, you can bet your ass that I would do the same without a second thought. 

No point being a pussy about owning up to a something, particularly on an anonymous message board.


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## Karma (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> And the panel is 100% symbolic .... Showing the people the author believes can fight Kaido.
> 
> Its funny how people twist themselves into pretzels just to avoid reality of an statement explicitly made by the author.


The funny part is that I never argued that Oden couldnt fight Kaido. Quite the opposite in fact, I think we wouldve fucked Kaido up if the fight went on.

I just think using that panel for powerscaling is bullshit, and u urself think so too. If u didnt u wouldnt keep avoiding the question of how the fight between Garp and Oden would go.

If u dont think Kaido put all the ppl who could give him a legitimate fight in the panel then its disingenuous af to argue "Rayleigh isnt in the panel" as a legitimate point.


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## Karma (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Ran away from....
> 
> I was literally the first to submit my concession the moment the spoilers came out even when they weren't 100% confirmed.
> 
> ...


Mustve been in another thread then.  The one i saw u argueing ppl in for over 3 pages just looked like u dipped after chapter 1010.


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## Kroczilla (Jun 19, 2021)

Karma said:


> The funny part is that I never argued that Oden couldnt fight Kaido. Quite the opposite in fact, I think we wouldve fucked Kaido up if the fight went on.
> 
> I just think using that panel for powerscaling is bullshit, and u urself think so too. If u didnt u wouldnt keep avoiding the question of how the fight between Garp and Oden would go.
> 
> If u dont think Kaido put all the ppl who could give him a legitimate fight in the panel then its disingenuous af to argue "Rayleigh isnt in the panel" as a legitimate point.




?????

Why would anyone argue that Oden couldn't fight Kaido. 

Why would I answer stupid questions when I have already made my point as clear as can be? It would only just lead to more studio questions which I barely have the patience for particularly since we are already off track of the central debate.

My making use of the explicit statement from the author on that subject was simply to point out that the Author places Current Kaido on par with those folks. Rayleigh was definitively below Roger. That fact is not up for debate. Hence it follows that Rayleigh even in his prime gets mauled.


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## Karma (Jun 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> ?????
> 
> Why would anyone argue that Oden couldn't fight Kaido.
> 
> ...


Ur point makes no sense tho

U put some ppl not in Kaido's list on this same "tier" as the ppl in it, with some of them being stronger than the ones on the list. So y does that mean Rayleigh need to be leaps and bounds below Roger or Oden?


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## juju15112 (Jun 20, 2021)

Oden lost to base Kaido for god sakes stop it.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## trance (Jun 20, 2021)

Karma said:


> Just wait for wen Yamato joins the SHs and we get a massive thread abt ppl argueing how shes the only one who wont surpass her analogue (Oden) as that would put him definitely below Rayleigh and Gaben.
> 
> I can slready see the arguments too. Niggas bringing up how Bellamy didnt surpass Doffy, and the counter argument that he doesnt recognize Doffy as his idol anymore.



yamato definitely has one thing in common with oden

both of em be throwing hard wrenches in mofos' long established and ""perfect"" tier lists


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## Kroczilla (Jun 20, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> So _to you_, not only did _Roger_ not grow in strength between the ages of 39 and 53 from active piracy, but _Kaido_ also didn't grow from when he faced Oden to the present (decades in the future). You're not accounting for temporal context or personal bias of Kaido's.
> 
> Essentially, you're saying Oden (who didn't fight a younger hybrid-mode Kaido) = Prime WB = Prime Roger = current Kaido = Big Mom = Xebec, more or less. Oof.
> 
> ...



There's a lot to unpack here:
1. Regarding Roger, we know that he went on to have several near death experiences with Garp after Rocks' defeat. Yet we are explicitly told that Rocks was his most formidable rival. Do I really need to get a dictionary here to explain what the word "Formidable" means. Even a child can tell that this must mean Roger was at, close to or reached his prime when He defeated Rocks. Heck same applies to Garp. What made him a legend wasn't his duels with Roger (it's implied that Sengoku battled Roger as well). What made him a legend was helping defeat Rocks. Again just like Roger, it could only mean that he was at, close to and reached his prime at the point in time.

2. Oden never fought hybrid Kaido and obviously Kaido is significantly stronger than he was back then. However even till this day, Kaido still regards Oden as capable of fighting him i.e. Oden is still a monster even by the standards of the current era.

3. Kaido using people of different eras is also irrelevant. During Rock's era, he was just a cabin boy. Notice how he specifically referred to them as people who could fight him. Its a clear comparison of his current self and the strongest pirates he has seen. That would be plainly obvious to someone not trying to be disingenuous coz it's quite clear Kaido wouldn't be comparing his cabin boy self against Rocks' strength.

4. Kaido is the mouth piece of the author as is every other character in his manga. Until the author decides otherwise, Kaido's statement can only be taken as cold hard facts.




Datassassin said:


> Oden, even if he was using the actual same technique as Roger/Prime WB did on their weapons with the same control, still 'only' scarred the long-memed full-dragon-mode Kaido. That's a _weaker _dragon mode Kaido than the one we have in the present, which has been shredded by *a list* of characters lower in power still to Oden.


Oden would have behead Kaido but for outside interference. Yes, Kaido has been cut by a lot of people, but none have come close to leaving the impact Oden had on him to the point that his entire views changed.


Datassassin said:


> Back then, the Rocks Crew likely was the strongest crew in the world; I have no issue with this because it doesn't at-all affect my evaluation of the Roger Pirates. Why? Because unlike you, I think it's clear _growth would happen in 14 years after the Rocks defeat_, and you do not. Aside from a Roger Pirate crew minus 14 years of development and Oden, *what other pirate crews would even be contenders at the time*? This was before the "great age of piracy" that saw an increase in the desire of people to test their luck rampaging on the ocean. Shiki didn't have his armada, Big Mom wasn't running her family as an independent pirate crew, and Kaido had nothing



IF the Roger pirates had defeated the Rock's crew on their own, you would have a point.
If it wasn't consistently said that the Rocks Pirates fell apart (as opposed to an outright defeat) you would have a point.

But none of those happened. Further, even after gaining the One Piece, not once has Rogers crew ever been mentioned in the context of being the strongest. Only one crew till date has ever had that said about them. The Rocks Pirates. If other subsequent crews had managed to reach their lvl, they would be the standards by which a Yonko alliance would be compared. But they aren't now, are they?



Datassassin said:


> Prime WB *didn't* wield the strongest crew after the demise of Rocks and before Roger's death, so nobody stating his crew then was the strongest makes sense. After Roger's death, WB himself was the strongest individual pirate, but the seas now had other strong crews that may have been judged by characters as too-competitive with the quality of WB's crew (including fledgling-Marco for example) to warrant a firm label


Again, pure head canon. WB was called WSM while Roger was still alive. Kaido was called WSC while WB was still alive. The Yonko were depicted as equals even individually by both the Novel of Ace (which is the only one piece novel confirmed to have been supervised by Oda himself). Heck this fact has been true since Pre-timeskip as exemplified by Garp's statement and Shanks clashing evenly with WB.




Datassassin said:


> You said the Rocks Crew was the strength-standard against which all pirate crews, and pirate alliances, would be judged. I have pointed out that the Rocks crew is only invoked by in-universe characters familiar with Big Mom and Kaido's shared history, who can see the thematic relevance of 2 members of the crew _that tried to screw the government_ joining back together and pooling *50% of the generally-oppositional powers of the Yonko*. You're too wrapped up in trying to prove "Rocks was the bestest crew ever and they stay on everyone's mind" to see the obvious & elementary reasons for characters recalling Rocks when thinking about BM+Kaido's crew alliance.


Hey, it not my fault that your Rayleigh wank has blinded you to facts. Go ahead and point me to another crew that has ever been given the title of strongest. You can't coz such a crew doesn't exist and didn't exist until a Yonko alliance came about. If it was just about their shared history, that (the Rocks pirate) would have been brought up in that context if being the strongest the moment Big mom decided to visit Wano, a point you tried to bring up which obviously has since crumbled like a pack a wet cards.

Heck the story blatantly tells us that their alliance just might > the rocks crew. But yet, you want us to believe that strength wasn't the primary factor in that case?




Datassassin said:


> Xebec being Roger's "first and greatest enemy" in Sengoku's words, _as someone who seemingly wasn't even there_, is not a pure powerlevel affair. Roger, for some reason, opposed the actions of the Rocks Crew to an extreme extent. WB and Roger were amicable rivals as highlighted by the loot game/gift exchange; _their_ dynamic is not what has been implied with Xebec and Roger.


Pure fanon. Also Sengoku and Garp were foes of Roger but even now, Rocks is still considered as the greatest one of the lot.



Datassassin said:


> The only figure present at God Valley who was likely at their peak was Xebec, even if only practically since that's where he died. Roger, Garp, Ray if he was present, DFless Kaido, etc. all increased in strength from that point onward. This was 8 years before Garp dented Chinjao, which he admitted he *trained* for.


Here's the thing, Kaido is explicitly said to have grown stronger given that at the time he was just a cabin boy so that made sense. Rocks' defeat is literally what made Garp a legend. Chinjao doesn't even qualify as a footnote by comparison. Not to mention, training will be required to maintain one's prime condition so Garp "training" wouldn't mean he had to get stronger for a scrub like Chinjao.


Datassassin said:


> Lmao, "might". Acquisition of skills is a main way characters in this fantasy strengthen in the first place, beyond stat raising. 'Skills' are incredibly broad, and even broader for characters with DFs. Depending on the skill, and the level of that skill, a character's strength in combat can be substantially changed. It's baffling how one can look at a packed fantasy like One Piece and have such a blind approach to analysis of characters' strengths.
> 
> Even *only* looking at advancement of haki:
> -COO range can widen
> ...


It is baffling how one can come up with so many rich fanon material in so few sentences. Again, sorry to break it to you, but your head canon material isn't proof of anything really. Facts are Roger defeated his greatest ever foe along with Garp. Fact is Garp immediately reach a status within the Marines that no other Admiral has measured up to till date upon Rocks' demise.  Unless explicit information is given otherwise, they would certainly have to have been around their prime lvl of strength to accomplish said feat.


Datassassin said:


> The degeneration of WB is what made his *authorial designation* as a character who still wouldn't lose a normal 1v1 fight so impressive. With haki control on the fritz, WB still would manage to beat down any single combatant before him. WB also suffered additional durability issues in how even in those moments of functioning haki, Hardening didn't exist as a defense mechanism yet.


Big mom equally wouldn't lose in a normal 1v1 fight. Neither would Kaido apparently. Neither would Shanks. You can't prove me wrong coz well, we haven't seen them lose 1v1 since they became Yonko. You keep repeating a assertion that can be applied to literally every other Yonko and even Shiki given that he lost 2v1, as proof that WB is the absolute strongest.

I myself could claim that any of them could best characters 1v1 and you would have no argument to make coz there would be none to make since it is indeed the cause that they haven't lost 1v1 since becoming Yonko.



Datassassin said:


> What you're struggling so hard to avoid is that there's a world of difference between content the *creator* of a story makes, and things that the creator says, and things made or said by people *other* than that creator who are *not* actually in control of the story. You should rely on things from Oda in this sort of discourse or keep it on the playground.



And you seem not to understand that works released with the endorsement of the author (data books) and/or his direct supervision (the Ace novel) are unless explicitly contradicted in the main source material, absolutely part of the series' lore.



Datassassin said:


> Shiki, "*The Flying Pirate*", could have met with Roger to propose his final plan without the need of even a single ship, not unlike how Shiki visited WB. He rolled up *with the full armada* to intimidate Roger into acquiescing, and _Roger himself says Shiki is trying to pressure him _before the very next panel reveals the scope of the legion. Shiki felt that his presence alone would not, in fact, sufficiently intimidate Roger.


*Sigh* In the first few chapters of the manga, we saw a single swordsman wipe out an armada while on a raft and using basically practice swings. If Shiki wasn't on par with Roger, it wouldn't have mattered how large his armada was.

As for why Shiki would need an armada, I am guessing it's for the same reason why other Yonkos including WB had entire armies while Shanks and Roger maintained a single ship. They had a higher quality of subordinates meaning other crews have to compensate with sheer numbers. Shiki for example had no subordinate of note, hence an armada in that context seems wholely appropriate.


It is also worth noting that you point out the fact that Shiki visited WB alone, someone you admit is on par with Roger. Yet you are trying to use his gaining an armada to fight a fellow Rival with the stronger crew as a mark against him?

You don't even seem to know exactly what point you are trying to make.


Datassassin said:


> I've done no such thing in this thread. Garp alone could have fucked Shiki up, but the marine objective was not "defeat Shiki". It was "defeat Shiki before he destroys the island". With Shiki's abilities, he could have easily risen the island, flipped it, and dropped it. It would be incredibly easy for Shiki to have destroyed every standing structure built upon that land with his earth-manipulation alone given enough time, so the lack of severe damage and the island remaining where it started proves that Shiki was overwhelmed before things could get out of hand.


If Garp was enough to fuck Shiki up,the author wouldn't have paired him up with Sengoku. The author wouldn't have included the wide spread destruction that resulted afterwards.

We have seen what happens when Garp encounters opponents who aren't on his level. They get one shot. Its that simple.

Claiming that Garp alone could fuck up Shiki?

You are literally running on pure head canon at this point, kid.


Datassassin said:


> Big Mom has always been below Roger, and Shiki is more vague. He's at minimum on her level, that of the modern Yonko/Admirals.


Head canon


Datassassin said:


> Except the ACOC users have not all achieved the same results as one another. Roger matched a WB *far stronger* than the old, ill one who was superior to Kaido and Big Mom 2 years ago in the OPverse



Old WB couldn't even use basic COC talkless of the advanced form. Notice that Old WB was placed on parity with the other Yonko despite *no one knowing the true extent of his decline*.



"_The four most powerful pirates ALONGSIDE WB_"

I hope to god that I don't have to explain what the words "Alongside" mean talkless of their implication in the context.

Yet, I am supposed to buy this fairy tale of that version being above everyone else?

Despite a healthier version being matched by Shanks?

Despite it being stated clearly that in terms of strength, Kaido >





Datassassin said:


> These characters are using a technique, and you delusionally think the offensive value of that technique is the same. You absurdly think that the ease with which that technique is executed and maintained is the same, *by virtue of characters able to use ACOC at all*. This doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Nothing guarantees a COC-shroud-user strength equality with other COC-shroud-users, just as COA barrier users have no innate similarity of strength or haki quality.


Again, the fact that you keep twisting my point just goes to show the extent of your dishonesty .

What I have said is that they have achieved SIMILAR RESULTS.

if it was just that they could all use AdCoc, that wouldn't be enough in itself. But they are literally performing on the same lvl of strength displayed by WB and Roger including splitting the skies and baby shaking entire islands.



Datassassin said:


> Defeating a character as strong as Kaido wouldn't be easy for anyone, but Rayleigh will be fine afterwards. He has no risk of losing or of permanent injury, which is why my initial post rejected the idea that "extreme difficulty" would be necessary for Ray to win. As you can plainly see from that post and the ones of mine that have followed, of course I would have a similar stance on Ray vs anyone else not stronger than Old WB. There are inevitably only slight differences in strength among the Yonko and C3.


Lol. This is about as dishonest a conclusion as I have ever seen from anyone here

Let's put this into context.

Author explicitly puts the Yonko including Old WB on a similar lvl, but of course the opinion of a random guy on the internet >>>>>>> the author's.


Ray would defeat every top tier of the current era without serious injuries except old WB despite the fact that he (old WB) suffered mortal wounds against a top tier of the current era.


At this point, Its looking more like I am wasting my time with you. You are clearly too far gone.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## LightningForce (Jun 20, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> oden the guy who sliced up the world strongest creature was batting practice for him. he's a goof ball personality wise but combat wise the best anyone has done is match him and that was the current era's wsm not having heart attacks and going from no haki to the highest level. personality and combat are constantly separable in shonen. goku, hashirma, naruto, hell luffy, etc



So swatting Oden is supposed to be portrayal of “utterly dominating?” The same Oden that got back up like a champ and charged back to him immediately? I repeat, impressive but *hardly* “utterly dominating.” Happens plenty in OP, even G2 Luffy swatted Teach at Impel Down and made him cry in pain.

WB was the WSM in the same era that Kaido became the WSC according to Ace light novel. 


Roger was not some unbeatable power level monster like many are portraying him to be. Hashirama was called “God of Shinobi” in his era, which is explicitly for his supreme power level. Roger was called the “Pirate King” for finding Raftel and the greatest treasure One Piece, not for power level assertions of beating all the Emperors 1v1.

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## Kroczilla (Jun 20, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Roger was not some unbeatable power level monster like many are portraying him to be. Hashirama was called “God of Shinobi” in his era, which is explicitly for his supreme power level. Roger was called the “Pirate King” for finding Raftel and the greatest treasure One Piece, not for power level assertions of beating all the Emperors 1v1.


This. Absolutely this right here.


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## LightningForce (Jun 20, 2021)

Anyways the last chance we may have to even see Prime Rayleigh in action will be in a God Valley flashback. And he will need to step it up in feats because he pretty much got sidelined in Wano flashback, with the implication of needing to 2v1 Oden in order to definitively win.

The minimum he would need to prove is that he had/has *ACoC*, until then this thread is not even worth discussing.

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## juju15112 (Jun 20, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Anyways the last chance we may have to even see Prime Rayleigh in action will be in a God Valley flashback. And he will need to step it up in feats because he pretty much got sidelined in Wano flashback, with the implication of needing to 2v1 Oden in order to definitively win.
> 
> The minimum he would need to prove is that he had/has *ACoC*, until then this thread is not even worth discussing.


Wouldn't prime Roger and Ray be aftwr God valley when they traved to the last island before raftel.


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## Mihawk (Jun 20, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Somehow missed this.
> 
> 
> *Big mom isn't exactly in her prime either and she is still a Yonko*. There is also the fact that no one really knew just how badly WB had declined. Not even his right hand man.
> The context behind WB's title was stated in the Ace novel. Also Kaido is called the WSC so there's that.


I agree with the bolded. I've argued with others before about how a younger Big Mom who competed against Roger/WB should be stronger than the 68 year old version who gave birth to 85 children. So I'll stick with it.

As for Whitebeard's decline, he certainly declined from his prime and illnesses which led to an inability to dodge from being injured which contributed to his death. However, even in a half dead state with virtually little to no energy or life-force left, he was still able to take down the strongest Admiral along with the entire Headquarters, before one-shotting Teach. And again, it bears noting how impressive it was, considering his condition in that moment. We can't dismiss the factors throughout the War which led to him being blindsided and further weakened.

I don't think that these circumstances in the War exist in a straight 1 on 1. Regardless of how much he declined, I do not agree that he was the weakest Yonko just because of assumed decline. Oda still referenced him as the World's Strongest pirate, and even after Marco's comment, you have other characters still calling him the strongest along with the Era belonging to Whitebeard. We heard about how Kaido smelled the opportunity to end his life because Whitebeard was occupied with Marineford. That doesn't imply a fair fight. We know that the Yonko are equal, and Kaido/Big Mom's clash is similar to Whitebeard/Shanks's. The major difference was that the former proceeded to a 3 day fight, while the latter wasn't really going to escalate into anything too serious.

Even so, there was a big gap between Old WB and Primebeard.


Kroczilla said:


> The PK title is more or less symbolic. For sure one needs a certain lvl itf strength to even be considered for the role, but strength isn't what gets you the throne. Luck/Fate plays are much bigger role


Right, but some of the Yonko have tried for the last 25 + years to become the King, and they still fell short. This includes being actively involved in arms races, increasing military potential, and expanding territories. I understand where you're coming from, because Roger very likely would not have been able to becoming king without Oden and his own voice of all things, including gathering all the poneglyphs. Narratively speaking, it was essential that he had those resources to become PK. In terms of strength, the Yonko could be right there already, but they simply lack the resources or special knowledge that Roger garnered. Still, in terms of strength, Roger was equal to the WSM in his prime, which separates him from their peers in the past, or the present.

Kaido might be WSC, but we'll never know if this would be inclusive of Roger/WB. If arguments can be made out of skepticism in WB's title, then the same applies for Kaido's based on its surrounding implications and other facts.


Kroczilla said:


> Yeah. He had the most resources and respect of the wider pirate world to the point that even the SNs as far back as Sabody expressed lvls of disgust at the WG's attempts to paint WB as a traitor.


Right, he was the king of the seas, and It was his era for a very long time. I think we all knew WB was past his prime. Doesn't automatically make him weaker than all of the Yonko. On the contrary, his feats in his condition were still easily top 3 in the series, along with Kaido and Akainu's.


Kroczilla said:


> This doesn't change the fact that in terms of strength, the Yonko were all peers hence the deadlock.


Agreed.


Kroczilla said:


> Did Roger stand atop WB? Or even Garp? In terms of prestige, sure he did. But in terms of strength, there is absolutely no basis to believe that this was the case.


Yes, there was nothing to suggest that Roger was outright superior to WB or Garp. WB was the WSM who had no desire to be PK, and Roger was his equal while Garp pushed him to the brink, countless times...it's possible WB was already the WSM in Roger's era, or gained the title after Roger died...either ways, those are the only individuals who were ever regarded as equal to Roger, and that was how they were depicted on multiple occasions. They were always hyped together.

Big Mom never got the same level of hype, minus the one time Roger had to resort to stealth in order to steal her poneglyph. Shiki doesn't get that level of hype when he was simply a long-time rival who competed with both and fell short. Kaido doesn't get that level of hype, because he could never prove it; even if he was on their level, there's no way for us to tell as his prime never met theirs. I'm not saying that Whitebeard and Roger would wipe the floor with the Yonko; my stance is simply that they were never their equal. Every king has his peers and contemporaries, rivals and archnemsis alike; the only people whom are _consistently _placed in the same rarified air as Roger, were Garp and Whitebeard; and perhaps now Xebec. Big Mom (prime), Shiki, Kaido (pre-prime); they were more like contenders who competed with them in the same time.

I mean, look at this art by Oda. Clearly, they were depicted as equals who stood above the rest.






Kroczilla said:


> And that's without mentioning the fact that Roger was practically at death's door by the time he became PK. Again, the title doesn't necessarily speak to strength.


Fair enough. He had a terminal illness after all...but Roger wasn't physically past his prime though.



Kroczilla said:


> Roger's crew is similar to Shank's and Luffy's i.e. far above average crew mates.


Yes. Hence why I hold Rayleigh and Beckmann in such high regard. That being said, it still speaks to the caliber of a captain that Roger was, and Shanks is. If the crew's battle strength is concentrated in being individually elite, an argument can be made for the captain being stronger than the norm too.

Also believe me, I get your stance. I think it's a sensible line of thinking to put the Yonko on a similar level to Roger since there is no way of knowing how big the gap will be between Luffy and Roger, assuming Luffy even surpasses him at all. Furthermore, there is no rule that explicitly states the Yonko have to be weaker in the manga. . I can get behind the thinking that the Yonko are closer to the PK than we give them credit for. I just don't think they were ever portrayed in the same way as the king of kings like WB/Roger, and by extension, possibly Garp and Xebec for being archenemies. The other legends like Rayleigh, Shiki, Sengoku, etc. are a different story. I have them as being the 2nd class in the era, so roughly equivalent or slightly weaker to the modern Yonko and Fleet admiral.

It's like a pyramid really. You have all these guys that are very close to the top, but only 2-3 guys ever stand at the pinnacle, if that.



Kroczilla said:


> And said Admiral shut the fuck up the moment Shanks showed up despite his bloodlust. Again, peers.


I love Shanks as much as the next guy, but I don't think it was advisable for Akainu to keep going. They were just wrapping up the War against Whitebeard, and Shanks (who is roughly around the same level) just showed up fresh with his entire crew. That would give pause to any further action.


Kroczilla said:


> I don't get it. Did Old garp do something that say Big mom couldn't replicate?


Nope. Old Garp had one good feat, and that was pretty much it.


Kroczilla said:


> The PK is the more perilous journey no doubt about that. Unlike the journey to become WSS, becoming PK without having insane luck on your side is an impossible task regardless of your will power.


Yes but Luffy also said that if Zoro was to be a member on his crew, he had to _at least _be strong enough to be the WSS. The factors you bring up are certainly considerable; I am not dismissing the circumstances surrounding how tough it is to become PK. It's like winning a championship. You can be the best player in the world, but that doesn't mean you can win a world title. There is a _lot_ more that goes into it than that. Many factors are at play, and the same applies here. However, I also do think the context around Mihawk, Zoro, and Luffy's comments during EB reflect a noticeable gap between the WSS and the man who was Pirate King.

Also I can't believe you're making me argue against Mihawk here 


Kroczilla said:


> At a point,I was convinced of this. Now though, particularly after seeing the mechanics of AdCoc being clarified, I just can't see any real justification to hold onto that belief.


But why not? There's still so much about AdCoC and its mechanics that we haven't seen yet (stuff we may see with Shanks). I don't think AdCoC alone (with what's been shown so far) automatically closes the gap completely between Roger and the Emperors. What we got between Roger/WB was a little taste. What we got from Kaido and Big Mom, as well as Luffy, was more of the real thing at their respective levels. Kaido implied that Luffy hasn't had much control of his newfound ability yet. This implies that Kaido himself has already mastered it...but who's to say that his mastery over this ability is equal or superior to Roger, Shanks, Garp, Whitebeard's respective masteries.? We don't know, since he's the first top tier to show this ability in the current plot. Ad. CoC is still a relatively freshly introduced ability/mechanic.

Relative to the Rocks duo, we've seen very little from Roger. One named attack and a single clash with Whitebeard isn't indicative of everything they can do. Conversely, we've seen a lot more from Kaido and Big Mom's arsenal.

It is fair to assume that what Kaido is showing now is indicative of what WB and Roger were fully capable of, in their primes. However, It's also fair to assume, that those legends have more to show than what we've seen so far, from Big Mom and Kaido.

Think we'll probably get more application of AdCoC when we see Shanks. So that could tip the scale in either direction.


Kroczilla said:


> Kaido and big mom are Shank's peers though. If you can make an argument for Shanks being Roger lvl,* I see no reason why same can't be made for them.*


What I meant was I've seen people make arguments for Shanks being Roger level. Me personally, I do not believe that is the case.

However, Shanks being the last of the pre-skip Yonko and the only one to not have a devil fruit. . it could indicate the level of his Haki is extremely high, which would inevitably paint him in a similar light to Roger, or being this era's version of him.



Kroczilla said:


> Yeah, we have obviously seen more from Kaido and big mom in terms of variety. *But we have seen Roger and Prime WB's most powerful clash on display*. Unless there is some other ability of Haki that Oda us holding out on, I don't see any reason to think Big mom and Kaido couldn't replicate that especially given the insane shit they've pulled off so far.


They have replicated that clash, but I see no reason why that would be Roger/Prime WB's most powerful clash. It's the most powerful clash that _we have seen _from them, but that's not saying much considering how little they showed us, before that chapter. What we saw was just a glimpse. It was the equivalent of what WB/Shanks did, as well as what Kaido/BM did before their 3 day battle.

The difference is, Oda still likely hasn't completely fleshed out Roger/WB yet. We've yet to see a single fight from them.

Big Mom and Kaido are insane. Extremely impressive by the series' standards up to this point. I do not believe they are capable of everything that Roger and Whitebeard were capable of. I don't think that's how the story has presented them.



LightningForce said:


> Anyways the last chance we may have to even see Prime Rayleigh in action will be in a God Valley flashback. And he will need to step it up in feats because he pretty much got sidelined in Wano flashback, *with the implication of needing to 2v1 Oden in order to definitively win.*
> 
> The minimum he would need to prove is that he had/has *ACoC*, until then this thread is not even worth discussing.



not this again lol 

Ray and Scopper standing in unison against Oden doesn't imply they both need to work together to beat him up. It implies that they needed work together to get rid of him as quickly as possible.

It's no different than Garp & Sengoku working together to beat Shiki down. Obviously, Oden was a threat neutralising him would  be as quickly as possible. Scopper even alludes to this by asking Ray if they should "nip this in the bud". These are pirates; fighting 1 on 1 all the time is meaningless.

Not like they needed to anyways, since Roger sent him flying.

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## Eustathios (Jun 20, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> I am not going to get slide lined here.
> 
> And the panel is 100% symbolic .... Showing the people that *Kaido* believes can fight Kaido.
> 
> Its funny how people twist themselves into pretzels just to avoid reality of an statement explicitly made by the author.


Fixed.

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## Dellinger (Jun 20, 2021)

I legit can''t believe how much this section hates Kaido.

Kaido is the WSC. Kaido can't die. Kaidos bounty is only below Ray's captain and WB.

Somehow Ray is stronger

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## ShadoLord (Jun 20, 2021)

Dellinger said:


> Kaido can't die.


 

yet, Kaido didn't dare eat a second devil fruit

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## trance (Jun 20, 2021)

ahhh yes

i remember the good ol """kaido is immortal""" days

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## LightningForce (Jun 21, 2021)

juju15112 said:


> Wouldn't prime Roger and Ray be aftwr God valley when they traved to the last island before raftel.



I see no reason to believe that. Roger's greatest foe was Xebec, so he likely peaked while fighting him along with Rayleigh. They were also in their 40s by that time I think.

Besides it was more of a feats display thing anyways, to see where Rayleigh stands in the totem pole along with weaker Emperor-in-the-makings at the time. WB and BM are considerably younger than Rayleigh, so if he was paired against one of them and/or displayed ACoC then that gives more credence to the "Rayleigh = Emperor level" theory.



Mihawk said:


> Ray and Scopper standing in unison against Oden doesn't imply they both need to work together to beat him up. It implies that they needed work together to get rid of him as quickly as possible.
> 
> It's no different than Garp & Sengoku working together to beat Shiki down. Obviously, Oden was a threat neutralising him would  be as quickly as possible. Scopper even alludes to this by asking Ray if they should "nip this in the bud". These are pirates; fighting 1 on 1 all the time is meaningless.
> 
> Not like they needed to anyways, since Roger sent him flying.



I said *definitively* beat him. 1v1 is anyone's guess, but also a pointless comparison as Oda instead wanted to show Rayleigh and Scopper together than, say, Scopper suggesting they fight together while Rayleigh saying he alone would be enough. To me, Oda was wanking Oden while putting Roger on a higher pedestal. But that's just how I interpret it.

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