# Teach vs Kuzan



## Kaiser (Jul 24, 2015)

Apparently Kuzan is supporting Teach at the moment(maybe the 10th giant guys were talking about), but what would happen if Kuzan started a rebellion and they faced each other?


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## Captain Altintop (Jul 24, 2015)

This could go either way imo, extreme diff.


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## Ruse (Jul 24, 2015)

I'd give Kuzan the benefit of the doubt for now, since I believe Teach hasn't reached his peak yet.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 24, 2015)

Extreme diff either way, but I'll go with Aokiji for now.


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## Goomoonryong (Jul 24, 2015)

I don't think Teach has reached his peak yet, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Teach wins high-extreme diff.


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## Orca (Jul 24, 2015)

IMO Either they're equals or Teach wins after a close fight. Don't see Kuzan winning.

It's likely that BB isn't at his peak yet but then again if he was, I wouldn't expect this to be a close fight at all.


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## Amol (Jul 24, 2015)

It doesn't really matter whether Teach is on his peak or not. His peak means being able to Mid diff Admiral(PK level strength).
What we do know that he is a Yonkou now. So naturally he has strength that a Yonkou should have.
I am giving it to him.
Very High diff .


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## mr sean66 (Jul 24, 2015)

Guys you can't forgef this is a favorable matchup for teach. He can quake his way out of ice. Aokiji is the best matchup for teach of all the admirals. I'd say he wins low end high diff.

All he needs is 2-4 good quake hits and it will be easier since he can drag aokiji towards him.


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## jNdee~ (Jul 24, 2015)

and Normally a yonkou would high diff an Admiral? where did that come from


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## Extravlad (Jul 25, 2015)

> What we do know that he is a Yonkou now. So naturally he has strength that a Yonkou should have.
> I am giving it to him.
> Very High diff .
> __________________


No Yonkou can very high diff Kuzan.


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## Furinji Saiga (Jul 25, 2015)

Extreme difficulty 

But I am leaning towards Teach, since I do think that Kuzan lost a bit of strength from his fight with Teach.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2015)

EoS Teach > Kuzan >= Current Teach.

Kuzan wins extreme difficulty.


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## Amol (Jul 25, 2015)

Last time I checked VERY high diff means something closer to extreme diff if not outright extreme diff .
There is a reason why we put word 'Very' in it.
But I guess fanboy jimmies gets rustled easily nowadays 
Though there is nothing wrong with idea of Teach being able to High diff Kuzan . How do we know that he isn't strongest Yonkou now ? Like on Old WB's level or something ?
Possibilities, possibilities.


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## jNdee~ (Jul 25, 2015)

a simple question is already a rustled response. I see 

Funny how you use "possibilities" with double standards


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## Beckman (Jul 25, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> No Yonkou can very high diff Kuzan.



Based on what exactly? 

We know very little of current Teach, even less about Shanks, practically nothing of Big Mom and only the name of Kaido.


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## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

Teach can negate his DF making Kuzan legless whenever Teach as him. 

As such when Teach is going to make it even harder for Kuzan to get away.

Kuzan Imo is out of his prime since he lost that fight.

Teach wins extreme.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Aokiji I'm not sure is particularly hampered by losing his leg with his DF but I don't like his type matchup against Teach. 

However considering Punk Hazard, a 10 day battle against an Admiral that changed the environment, BB has nothing on that level. 

High not extreme difficulty Aokiji



Juvia. said:


> Teach can negate his DF making Kuzan legless whenever Teach as him.
> 
> As such when Teach is going to make it even harder for Kuzan to get away.
> 
> ...



And then he reforms immediately or gives zero fucks sliding around on ice. 

He can create miles of ice, freeze tidal waves instantly. 

This is why he wins.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

I still want to give the match to Kuzan, but I can't seem to. I'd say it goes either way. 



em senpai said:


> However considering Punk Hazard, a 10 day battle against an Admiral that changed the environment, BB has nothing on that level.



Tbf Teach has the gura fruit, using which he was able to tilt the ocean right away without much of a problem.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Though it can be speculated to the high heavens he has WB's mastery over the fruit by now, WB feats = / = Teach. The tidal waves of Teach don't mean much Aokiji's casual freezing is just as wide and devastating.


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## Dunno (Jul 25, 2015)

I think Teach wins. Probably with extreme diff. EoS Teach will not be able to mid diff Aokiji, that's just stupid.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Though it can be speculated to the high heavens he has WB's mastery over the fruit by now, WB feats = / = Teach. The tidal waves of Teach don't mean much Aokiji's casual freezing is just as wide and devastating.



That is fair too. But to say he has nothing on that level, I consider wrong. 10 days of Gura fighting (if teach can last that long) should be enough to do some serious damage on that level.


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

Have to see Teach in action first.

"logic" would dictate that as teach had his DF for a short period of time Kuzan should be able to take him out as his powers essentially negate teach's crazy endurance.

But  we don't know what teach can or can't take, we saw flamingo broke out of one of kiji's attacks for all we know teach's DF combination can help mitigate attacks like ice time.

And given what BB was going at the start of the war with the gura two years of religiously spamming the DF must have given him more than enough practice.  In all honesty  a DF can be mastered because oda wants it, there's no stipulated time line involved.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Have to see Teach in action first.
> 
> "logic" would dictate that as teach had his DF for a short period of time Kuzan should be able to take him out as his powers essentially negate teach's crazy endurance.
> 
> But  we don't know what teach can or can't take, we saw flamingo broke out of one of kiji's attacks for all we know teach's DF combination can help mitigate attacks like ice time.



Teach could have added resistance to ice powers though (because of the vibrations of the quake fruit)


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Teach could have added resistance to ice powers though (because of the vibrations of the quake fruit)



Indeed, flamingo broke out of it too easily to assume that teach won't essentially laugh off attacks like what when they dude has two powers that can counter the effects.


This battle lies more within combat ability than powers,  I'll always give that over teach for the three admirals anyday but whitebeard wasn't exactly making any crazy skilled movements.

In all honestly that may just be irrelevant at this point.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

The type matchup is in Teach's favor, again I don't like that at all for the ex-admiral. 

However in pure battle he has much stronger evidence to show he can handle it. Remember the Magu Magu, more devastating than fire? Not to nice to ice, methinks... Yet Akainu came out scarred from it and it took him 10 days to lose despite the type match-up


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> The type matchup is in Teach's favor, again I don't like that at all for the ex-admiral.
> 
> However in pure battle he has much stronger evidence to show he can handle it. Remember the Magu Magu, more devastating than fire? Not to nice to ice, methinks... Yet Akainu came out scarred from it and it took him 10 days to lose despite the type match-up



Jinbei said their powers were almost equally matched.  There was no DF advantage.

People need to stop confusing ice with freezing.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Except... you're wrong. Hie Hie no Mi is the Ice Ice Fruit. He has never frozen anything besides his own body and water.


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## Amol (Jul 25, 2015)

The point that Teach can remove Kuzan 'Ice Leg' is a very valid one.
I mean this is a level where one small mistake can cost you your life.
All Teach has to do is touch him(which I am sure won't be easy thing) and
Kuzan will loose the balance.
Not only Teach got double protection against being frozen(Darkness and vibrations) but also he have a considerable advantage in CQC.
That being said Kuzan is not idiot and he had seen how BB's powers at work so he would probably try to avoid getting into CQC .
But there is also gravitational pull to worry about.
This seems like a mismatch against Kuzan to be honest.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

BB is incredibly immobile and Kuzan is the opposite


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Except... you're wrong. Hie Hie no Mi is the Ice Ice Fruit. He has never frozen anything besides his own body and water.



Some refer to it as the Chill Chill fruit.  Not ice.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jul 25, 2015)

Teach very high to extreme diff

He isnt the kind of trusting guy to let someone more powerful than him into his crew


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

Pulling Kuzan into close quarters is really dangerous too, in regards to the whole gravitational pull thing. iirc, he needs to touch people with his hand (that's how WB quaked him-by stepping on his hands)


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Teach very high to extreme diff
> 
> He isnt the kind of trusting guy to let someone more powerful than him into his crew



Not necessarily. He can gang up on someone with his crew. Like he did with Magellan.


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## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Except... you're wrong. Hie Hie no Mi is the Ice Ice Fruit. He has never frozen anything besides his own body and water.



Magma can be frozen just as easily as Ice can be melted. Kuzan has burns all over him and Sakazuki has Frost bite all over him. It's pretty damn obvious what Oda intends.  

Fire cannot be frozen. 

Fire > Ice = Magma > Fire


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## Coruscation (Jul 25, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Some refer to it as the Chill Chill fruit.  Not ice.



They are wrong. It's like saying that Enel is rumbling, not electricity. Kuzan is an iceman who has the Ice fruit which is _called_ the Chill Chill fruit. Y'know because ice is cold. Which is no different from how Enel's fruit is _called_ the Rumble Rumble fruit because of the rumbling sound of thunder that accompanies lightning.

The point about freezing still applies. It's not just ice vs. magma in a direct clash. The Ice fruit has the effect of cooling down things it touches it like the Sand fruit has the power to dry things out. It's basically artificial cold infinitely produced from Kuzan's immense power and stamina. Like Juvia said above me you can't directly compare Ace's fire fruit and Akainu's magma fruit when it comes to interacting with the Hie Hie. Fire is gas, magma is molten rock. Magma may be hotter but you can't "cool down" magical fire the same way.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Magma can be frozen just as easily as Ice can be melted. Kuzan has burns all over him and Sakazuki has Frost bite all over him. It's pretty damn obvious what Oda intends.
> 
> Fire cannot be frozen.
> 
> Fire > Ice = Magma > Fire



This is true. It would take near absolute 0 amounts of cold to reduce a flaming gas' temperature to the point it doesn't burn. 

Although, a gust of wind could blow fire away.


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## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> This is true. It would take near absolute 0 amounts of cold to reduce a flaming gas' temperature to the point it doesn't burn.
> 
> Although, a gust of wind could blow fire away.



Or it could make the fire burn brighter and hotter. To the point it boils magma.


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## Lawliet (Jul 25, 2015)

Kuzan dies. If he starts a rebellion, he's getting his ass ganged by everyone. It's not going to be a fair fight.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Magma is 1300 ?F to 600 at its lowest 
Ice is at most -6 

Flames aren't cooled they're smothered by water just as they are smothered by magma. 

However when flames are smothered nothing remains it is gaseous. When magma cools  500 degree obsidian remains. 

[YOUTUBE]Fcz3vBdI7Nc[/YOUTUBE]


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 25, 2015)

Amol said:


> How do we know that he isn't strongest Yonkou now ? Like on Old WB's level or something ?


It would be rather weird if Blackbeard is at that level already when just two years ago he was manhandled by a half dead Whitebeard.
Anyways, yeah, it's possible Blackbeard could be stronger than Aokiji. But right now, IMHO Blackbeard is still the weakest among the top dogs of this generation, and Aokiji has better feats than Blackbeard at the moment. He held his ground against Whitebeard (despite the old man's DF advantage) and was even able to gain a temporary edge over the WSM. And ofc, there's his ten day battle against Akainu. If you want to give the win to Blackbeard, that's up to you, but for now, until we see more from Blackbeard, I'm personally giving it to Aokiji.


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## Kaiser (Jul 25, 2015)

BB was manhandled that easily because he was careless. WB stated it himself. Not sure why people always neglect that fact. Luffy was one shotted by Caesar(a far weaker opponent). BB is described as his counter-part. They both have a tendancy to be careless in fights but when serious, they are force to be reconned.  This is the same guy who brutally injured Sengoku

Besides, Half dead WB almost KO'd Akainu in 2hits. Because he was missing part of his head doesn't mean his attacks were less powerful, especially when bloodlusted like he was against Teach and he still failed to kill him, ending up being the one killed(with BB's crew help, but still)


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## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Magma is 1300 ?F to 600 at its lowest
> Ice is at most -6
> 
> Flames aren't cooled they're smothered by water just as they are smothered by magma.
> ...



...

Fucking hell i thought i was bad. 

He has fucking Frost Bite. PROVING THAT KUZAN CAN FREEZE HIS ASS!

I am so done here. :faceplam. Some people...

Also, if you think Kuzan's Ice is only -6 your even worse than i currency think.

-6 cannot freeze over the Ocean.  Never mind tsunami's in the act.


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## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

Jigen said:


> It would be rather weird if Blackbeard is at that level already when just two years ago he was manhandled by a half dead Whitebeard.



That's funny, considering a year for us is like a day in the manga. You know what that means right? Just how long do you think is left in manga time? I can tell you, not that long.

The last 200 chapters all happened in one day.


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> They are wrong. It's like saying that Enel is rumbling, not electricity. Kuzan is an iceman who has the Ice fruit which is _called_ the Chill Chill fruit. Y'know because ice is cold. Which is no different from how Enel's fruit is _called_ the Rumble Rumble fruit because of the rumbling sound of thunder that accompanies lightning.
> 
> The point about freezing still applies. It's not just ice vs. magma in a direct clash. The Ice fruit has the effect of cooling down things it touches it like the Sand fruit has the power to dry things out. It's basically artificial cold infinitely produced from Kuzan's immense power and stamina. Like Juvia said above me you can't directly compare Ace's fire fruit and Akainu's magma fruit when it comes to interacting with the Hie Hie. Fire is gas, magma is molten rock. Magma may be hotter but you can't "cool down" magical fire the same way.



No issues there.  But the person in question for some reason believes that because Akainu melted Ice his powers are greater than Kuzan's.

Poster is not taking the true mechanics of Kuzan's power into consideration.


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Magma is 1300 ?F to 600 at its lowest
> Ice is at most -6
> 
> Flames aren't cooled they're smothered by water just as they are smothered by magma.
> ...



Again with the ice thing.


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## Ghost (Jul 25, 2015)

Teach high/extreme diff. Not seeing Aokiji beating Yami Yami and Gura Gura even if Teach is not in his prime yet.


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## Finalbeta (Jul 25, 2015)

EoS Teach is the only Teach who can high diff Kuzan, unless he surpasses Roger, in that case he would mid diff him


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## Amol (Jul 25, 2015)

Jigen said:


> It would be rather weird if Blackbeard is at that level already when just two years ago he was manhandled by a half dead Whitebeard.
> Anyways, yeah, it's possible Blackbeard could be stronger than Aokiji. But right now, IMHO Blackbeard is still the weakest among the top dogs of this generation, and Aokiji has better feats than Blackbeard at the moment. He held his ground against Whitebeard (despite the old man's DF advantage) and was even able to gain a temporary edge over the WSM. And ofc, there's his ten day battle against Akainu. If you want to give the win to Blackbeard, that's up to you, but for now, until we see more from Blackbeard, I'm personally giving it to Aokiji.



Blackbeard wouldn't have got beaten that badly if he was little less arrogant .
Seriously what kind of idiot thinks that just because you can temporally remove DF of The Whitebeard, he would be helpless.
He got cocky and paid for it .
And 2 years are more than enough.
Luffy's entire pirate career is barely covers a year(ignoring training period).
Gura Gura is big power up, especially when combined with Yami Yami.
That being said I don't discard the idea of Kuzan winning . That certainly is a possibility.
But I just think odds are against Kuzan here .


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 25, 2015)

Amol said:


> Blackbeard wouldn't have got beaten that badly if he was little less arrogant .


Arrogant or not, Whitebeard on his deathbed was still strong enough to overpower Blackbeard, and instead of choosing to continue fighting Whitebeard on his own, Blackbeard chose to call for his crew to come save him. There's no way he came out of that looking very good.


Amol said:


> And 2 years are more than enough.


Possibly. But how do we know for sure?


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

-6 Celsius is the MAXIMUM frozen salt water gets and guess what? Frostbite occurs at zero degrees... 

If Akoiji can freeze anything but water, why hasn't he? People are 70% water so they're naturally 'frozen'. Why would Punk Hazard be half on fire? He could solidify the air in a person's lungs if it were so easy. 

I thought you actually came to an agreement that he cooled other objects with the use of ice. Yet when science comes in the mix... 

No. Magma > Ice > Fire. Magma not only smothers both but melts ice as well. Simple as that.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> -6 Celsius is the MAXIMUM frozen salt water gets and guess what? Frostbite occurs at zero degrees...
> 
> If Akoiji can freeze anything but water, why hasn't he? People are 70% water so they're naturally 'frozen'. Why would Punk Hazard be half on fire? He could solidify the air in a person's lungs if it were so easy.
> 
> ...



Do you do physics or chemistry by chance? Ice and Magma are direct counters for each other the same way Magma can melt ice ice can cool down Magma.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

So your direct counter is a good match-up? 

No. Not even when it's direct counter versus direct counter. The phrase is a double edged sword and it has a negative connotation. 

Furthermore Ice cools magma into hot obsidian which is more dangerous than water. One would have to consistently refreeeze the water to stop the obsidian and remaining magma from 1) evaporating the water and 2) burning you 

While at the same logic your opponent will be sending magma at the same rate. 

That's not a good matchup. It lasted 10 days


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## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> -6 Celsius is the MAXIMUM frozen salt water gets and guess what? Frostbite occurs at zero degrees...
> 
> If Akoiji can freeze anything but water, why hasn't he? People are 70% water so they're naturally 'frozen'. Why would Punk Hazard be half on fire? He could solidify the air in a person's lungs if it were so easy.
> 
> ...



He can freeze solids and liquids. 

Freezing gasses is not that easy. The level of coldness you have to achieve to even get gas the liquefy is seriously cold. You've heard of liquid nitrogen right? Yea, that's just cold gas. You can freeze it further with science and cause it to turn into a solid. But at that point the nitrogen is literally only 2 degree's above absolute zero. In other words, Kuzan would need to achieve near absolute zero to freeze gasses. 

At that point he becomes the most broken fruit in the manga and he could solo everyone with NO ONE being able to break out of his Ice.

Kuzan is the Ice man. Not the Feeze man. As such his Ice temp is always the same. He freezes what he touches. In other words, the magma becomes instantly frozen to Kuzans body temp. And as such, Frostbite. 

Yea, i was wrong with saying it's below -6. It does not have to be below -6. Guess why? Because it is not Kuzan's Ice that causes the cooling of the water or other things that he touches to freeze it. It's his power. It instantly freezes things to that temp. No matter what temp they were before. Meaning that video you posted is pointless. Kuzan would not cool the magma to the point that the magma slowly becomes cooler which creates that hot obsidian you are talking about. As it would instantly become Ice. 

But still my fire example works fine. As fire, still. Cannot be frozen.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

> It instantly freezes things to that temp. No matter what temp they were before.


So everything you said about that gas stuff before is either false or a loophole?

Not to mention we've seen him freeze water vapor....


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## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> So everything you said about that gas stuff before is either false or a loophole?
> 
> Not to mention we've seen him freeze water vapor....



No.

Because -6 gas is still just that, gas. It does not become a solid or a liquid. It's just cool air. Gas has to get to something -200 to turn into even a liquid and -270 to turn into a solid. 

No, we have seen him freeze the water, while it was vapor.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Okay well since you don't know chemistry vapor is gas. It cools to liquid at 100 degrees Celsius solid at 0. So he can freeze 'gas'. He brings the temperature down roughly 100 degrees Celsius.

It has ZERO things to do with the state of matter. 

It's that his power is to make ice what's so hard to understand  ice is made of water. He only ever makes ice only ever will and it's simply his ability not to instantly bring the temperature of something to a stated temperature. 

Furthermore he can freeze an entire ocean you think that takes less energy than bringing Nitrogen in the air to a solid which is solid at -300 degrees if he had such an ability? Only 3 times the energy of cooling water, thusly 1/3 the volume of water vapor he can freeze he SHOULD be able to with supposed 'cooling' ability. 

The reason isn't energy its because it's not water.


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## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Okay well since you don't know chemistry vapor is gas. It cools to liquid at 100 degrees Celsius solid at 0. So he can freeze 'gas'. He brings the temperature down roughly 100 degrees Celsius.
> 
> It has ZERO things to do with the state of matter.
> 
> ...



... If he has a certain temp that his Ice is at. That he cannot make things colder than his Ice nor can he make them hotter. If you can do one you can also do the other.

For Kuzan to be able to freeze Gas he would need to also need to be able to heat the air to above boiling point cooking people alive. 

If Kuzan's powers were able to freeze the air it's self like it does to water, we would have stuff like this. 



Every time he blinked using even a tiny little bit of his power. 

If you don't know what that is, it's an Ice Demon freezing over an entire city in an instant, by mistake.

Also, when did Kuzan freeze water vapor? o_O If you mean when creating his sword, he clearly just blew the leaves into the pattern he needed them into freeze them into a sword.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Correct. There is barely any water in the air compared to nitrogen and oxygen. That is why he does not freeze air. 

He can only freeze water. He makes ice. It's incontestable that's his ability. Where there's water he can make ice.


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> -6 Celsius is the MAXIMUM frozen salt water gets and guess what? Frostbite occurs at zero degrees...
> 
> If Akoiji can freeze anything but water, why hasn't he? People are 70% water so they're naturally 'frozen'. He could solidify the air in a person's lungs if it were so easy.
> 
> I thought you actually came to an agreement that he cooled other objects with the use of ice. Yet when science comes in the mix...



He froze a log pole luffy tried to hit him with.



> No. Magma > Ice > Fire. Magma not only smothers both but melts ice as well. Simple as that.



Yes we know that clearly by the fact that Akainu vapurized the iceberg.

However. 

The temperature Kiji uses to freeze an entire ocean in an instant is not the temperature of the resulting Ice. 

Ice as in solid water.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

When did Kuzan freeze air or water vapor?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

Inb4 Kuzan is awakened and can turn the environment into ice.


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Correct. There is barely any water in the air compared to nitrogen and oxygen. That is why he does not freeze air.
> 
> He can only freeze water. He makes ice. It's incontestable that's his ability. Where there's water he can make ice.



What is frozen air?


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Solid nitrogen or oxygen. Or both.


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Inb4 Kuzan is awakened and can turn the environment into ice.



But he changed the climate on a part of  punk hazard.

Failed to see how he accomplished that by just freezing water.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

@Emsempai: Why is that even relevant?


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Solid nitrogen or oxygen. Or both.



So isn't that what he did when he made ice saber?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> But he changed the climate on a part of  punk hazard.
> 
> Failed to see how he accomplished that by just freezing water.



Ace changed the climate of drum island by just being on it for a while.


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## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> When did Kuzan freeze air or water vapor?



He didn't.

Idk why she/he brought it up. >_> 

He freezes anything but that. As proven in the manga.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 25, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> So isn't that what he did when he made ice saber?



No way. Fresh grass has a lot of condensation water too so it's wet (especially near the coast). He could've easily frozen that water, and bound it together with some of his own ice.


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> No way. Fresh grass has a lot of condensation water too so it's wet (especially near the coast). He could've easily frozen that water, and bound it together with some of his own ice.



And the log luffy used on him and the other two admirals?


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> So isn't that what he did when he made ice saber?



He froze the water in the air. It makes no logical sense to make a blade of anything else when it would not only be harder and weaker but it's also explicitly clear it's only water.



Canute87 said:


> And the log luffy used on him and the other two admirals?



Organic material is MOSTLY water


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## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> He froze the water in the air. It makes no logical sense to make a blade of anything else when it would not only be harder and weaker but it's also explicitly clear it's only water.
> 
> 
> 
> Organic material is MOSTLY water



Alright.  Back up  I'm at a loss here.  What are people arguing?


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

The argument Juvia proposed is that he can freeze magma because his power is to bring anything to a certain low temperature 

But that isn't true. His power is to make ice. Ice can cool off other things, give frostbite, and can be drawn from the air or any source there is water.

When it comes to Ice versus magma ice will melt and evaporate into nothingness (and have to be reconstituted) while hot ass obsidian continues to melt more and more ice while fresh magma is piled on if an attempt to make more ice is made. 

So because magma has the ability to smother anything like fire and no handicap against ice like being smothered by water (again hot obsidian), magma > ice > fire


----------



## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> The argument Juvia proposed is that he can freeze magma because his power is to bring anything to a certain low temperature
> 
> But that isn't true. His power is to make ice. Ice can cool off other things, give frostbite, and can be drawn from the air or any source there is water.
> 
> ...



Yes it is true. >_> 

Magma is also a liquid. >_> If you want to go there...

Solids cannot really be frozen because they are already solids. They just become really cold versions of them selves. But they can be covered by Ice. 

Frozen gas takes a much lower temp than what it takes water to Freeze. In other words if Kuzan cannot makes Ice that cold which i am saying he cannot, he cannot freeze air.

To freeze air you need all most absolute zero coldness.

Em must clearly think that Kuzan is >>> Sakazuki if she/he thinks that Sakazuki had the elemental advantage in that battle.

Because there is no way that an elemental advantage would mean so little. If you think it does, maybe you need to view what happens when there is an Elemental Advantage in this manga again...


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> The argument Juvia proposed is that he can freeze magma because his power is to bring anything to a certain low temperature
> 
> But that isn't true. His power is to make ice. Ice can cool off other things, give frostbite, and can be drawn from the air or any source there is water.
> 
> ...



Kiji's power is to freeze.  Not to make ice.

If his powers were just to make ice why is akainu damaged?


----------



## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Kiji's power is to freeze.  Not to make ice.
> 
> If his powers were just to make ice why is akainu damaged?



His power is to make Ice.

He can make Sakazuki's Magma into Ice.

That is his power.


----------



## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Because ice causes frostbite 

Haki imued ice likely stuck to his face and damaged it. 

Same question should be asked how did he lose a leg? 

They're both logia the only answer is they were caught off guard with haki-imbued strikes


----------



## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

Magma cannot become Ice. But it can be frozen to the same temp and be covered in an Ice layer.

Which is likely what happens when Kuzan uses his Ice powers on it or any other hot solid/liquid. 

Just like how a person becomes frozen by his touch.

At the same time the air around him can all most certainly be cooled down to the same temp. Making the area he is in a freezer.


----------



## Bernkastel (Jul 25, 2015)

Could go either way though i'm favoring Teach a bit more since the gura fruit is a good counter to the ice fruit.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> His power is the make Ice.
> 
> He can make Sakazuki's Magma into Ice.
> 
> That is his power.



Freezing is not the same as making ice. freezing is essentially removal of heat.  

Akainu generating heat at the same time kiji removing it is going to create some sort of deadlock.



em senpai said:


> Because ice causes frostbite
> 
> Haki imued ice likely stuck to his face and damaged it.
> 
> ...


Frostbite is caused by exposed to extremely cold temperatures not ice.
The way how the M3 screamed out in pain this was not simply ice.

one could easily argue that this occurred near the end but for 95 % of the fight they obviously were not  throwing stones at each other.


----------



## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Freezing is not the same as making ice. freezing is essentially removal of heat.
> 
> Akainu generating heat at the same time kiji removing it is going to create some sort of deadlock.



-_- You have a point.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

Thank you I haven't had someone say that in months


----------



## Lawliet (Jul 25, 2015)

Aokiji makes things freeze. When things freeze, they take the shape of an Ice which is why you think his power is Ice making. His powers is not Ice making though. Look at the difference between him and Gray from Fairy Tail. Gray makes Ice, Aokiji doesn't.

And do people even know what  absolute zero is? If Oda really followed scientific facts (lel at people who think he does 100%) Then Aokiji should have the potential to reach absolute zero. Absolute zero > Magma easily. Absolute zero freezes EVERYTHING it touches. Not just the surface of magma. It literally freezes its chemicals making it unable to move an inch more. The sun would instantly freeze if applied to absolute zero. Think about that for a second.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

Awakening .


----------



## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Aokiji makes things freeze. When things freeze, they take the shape of an Ice which is why you think his power is Ice making. His powers is not Ice making though. Look at the difference between him and Gray from Fairy Tail. Gray makes Ice, Aokiji doesn't.
> 
> And do people even know what  absolute zero is? If Oda really followed scientific facts (lel at people who think he does 100%) Then Aokiji should have the potential to reach absolute zero. Absolute zero > Magma easily. Absolute zero freezes EVERYTHING it touches. Not just the surface of magma. It literally freezes its chemicals making it unable to move an inch more. The sun would instantly freeze if applied to absolute zero. Think about that for a second.



I do know what it is yes.

That's all most how cold some gasses have to be to freeze completely into a block. Only 2 degrees away.


----------



## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Ice is extremely cold. Cold enough to cause frostbite. 

Reference: google



oOLawlietOo said:


> Aokiji makes things freeze. When things freeze, they take the shape of an Ice which is why you think his power is Ice making. His powers is not Ice making though. Look at the difference between him and Gray from Fairy Tail. Gray makes Ice, Aokiji doesn't.
> 
> And do people even know what  absolute zero is? If Oda really followed scientific facts (lel at people who think he does 100%) Then Aokiji should have the potential to reach absolute zero. Absolute zero > Magma easily. Absolute zero freezes EVERYTHING it touches. Not just the surface of magma. It literally freezes its chemicals making it unable to move an inch more. The sun would instantly freeze if applied to absolute zero. Think about that for a second.



Are you some kind of idiot? 

You're explicitly referencing outside sources and nothing in this manga. 

He DOESN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO TAKE THINGS TO ABSOLUTE ZERO BECAUSE IT'S NOT HIS ABILITY

He lost to the magu magu no mi 

Nothing you're saying is anything but headcanon.


----------



## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Ice is extremely cold. Cold enough to cause frostbite.
> 
> Reference: google



With hours of it being applied to skin.

Unless we are talking about hands or feat. Mainly feat.


----------



## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Considering the battle of punk hazard took place over 10 days it's completely possible for him to have been exposed over hours


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Ice is extremely cold. Cold enough to cause frostbite.
> 
> Reference: google



Ice is created by cold temperatures. 

It's not the coldness of the ice that causes the frostbite as most freezer operate an temperatures lower than the freezing point (got this from google as well).  What is actually fucking people out is the *cold air* ice gives off which can reach lower temperatures that's why ice can get colder the longer it's in a freezer, sublimation (primary school bitches)

Ice is solid water.  Unless that fact has changed at some point hell I wouldn't be surprised back in my day nine planets existed. Anyway I digress.

Bottom line is the cold temperature of ice cannot freeze a large volume of seawater in a spit second.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jul 25, 2015)

Post ts Blackbeard was scared of FA Akainu who is not too much stronger than Aokiji


----------



## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Post ts Blackbeard was scared of FA Akainu who is not too much stronger than Aokiji



That was pre ts BB........... And it was Admiral Akainu then.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Considering the battle of punk hazard took place over 10 days it's completely possible for him to have been exposed over hours



Akainu is made of magma.  Why would be be exposed to coldness for hours?


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jul 25, 2015)

I'm pretty sure it wasn't? When did they tie up the female Supernova


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 25, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> I'm pretty sure it wasn't? When did they tie up the female Supernova



Before the timeskip.


----------



## Yuki (Jul 25, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> I'm pretty sure it wasn't? When did they tie up the female Supernova



Yes, pre time skip. >_> 

Just after BB and crew left MF for the NW.


----------



## Lawliet (Jul 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Ice is extremely cold. Cold enough to cause frostbite.
> 
> Reference: google
> 
> ...





> Then Aokiji should have the potential to reach absolute zero





> have the potential to reach absolute zero





> potential to reach absolute zero





> potential



Your reading comprehension is next to 0.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 25, 2015)

Pre-Skip Certainly Teach loses .

Post-Skip we don't know for sure, but Blackbeard should currently be on the top 3 of the manga, but we don't have a way of knowing, unless I'm missing something .


----------



## Deleted member 45015 (Jul 26, 2015)

Current Teach is an unknown quantity. 

If he beats Kuzan it's not going to be without difficulty. Even with one leg Kuzan is still a former Admiral and is still a _very _skillful Logia-user. Teach can win, but with effort, at least until he shows up at a later point with a better grasp of his abilities. 

Teach probably has more raw power, but Kuzan has the edge on him in terms of experience and skill, I figure.


----------



## Yuki (Jul 26, 2015)

CM Pope said:


> Current Teach is an unknown quantity.
> 
> If he beats Kuzan it's not going to be without difficulty. Even with one leg Kuzan is still a former Admiral and is still a _very _skillful Logia-user. Teach can win, but with effort, at least until he shows up at a later point with a better grasp of his abilities.
> 
> Teach probably has more raw power, but Kuzan has the edge on him in terms of experience and skill, I figure.



Don't forget Teach was part of a Yonko crew back when Kuzan was taking orders from fodder.

He was in the crew that battled with Roger likely multiple times. 

Teach has LOTS of experience.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 26, 2015)

He had a 0 bounty.


----------



## Yuki (Jul 26, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> He had a 0 bounty.



Because he didn't want one. >_>


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 26, 2015)

Because absolutely no one knew what he could do.

And he wasn't training,  he was barely fighting. 

He just spent most of his time trying to find a DF,  a DF apparently had he not found was going to give up piracy all together.

This doesn't sound like somebody massively powerful and just hiding in the shadows.


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 26, 2015)

Teach high diffs he is in his prime except we all know he isn't, which is why Burgess got trashed by Sabo while likely being on the top half of the BB pirates.
Teach right now is not the strongest Yonko, he'll be the strongest once he takes down Shanks.

Right now it's extreme diff, which is how a fight between the C3 and Shanks/Kaido/Bigmom should always go


----------



## Coruscation (Jul 26, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Aokiji makes things freeze. When things freeze, they take the shape of an Ice which is why you think his power is Ice making. His powers is not Ice making though. Look at the difference between him and Gray from Fairy Tail. Gray makes Ice, Aokiji doesn't.
> 
> And do people even know what  absolute zero is? If Oda really followed scientific facts (lel at people who think he does 100%) Then Aokiji should have the potential to reach absolute zero. Absolute zero > Magma easily. Absolute zero freezes EVERYTHING it touches. Not just the surface of magma. It literally freezes its chemicals making it unable to move an inch more. The sun would instantly freeze if applied to absolute zero. Think about that for a second.



Yes his power is making Ice. Or more accurately like all Logia he IS ice, and he can effectively "create" ice by extending and detaching his own body. Like when he throws partisans or with his Pheasant Beak move.

The reason he can freeze stuff is that ice IS cold and thus he can emanate cold. Just like how Croc can dry people because sand IS dry. In each case Kuzan and Crocodile are simply transferring the quality of the make-up of their body. Kuzan's power is not to freeze things. It is to turn into ice, and because ice is cold he can freeze things. That's the order of causality. Saying Kuzan's power is not to create ice, it's to make things freeze is like saying Croc's power is not to create sand, it's to make things dry. It's simply wrong. The power to make things X is an ability they gain by virtue of transforming their bodies into an element which has certain qualities. No different from Akainu making things melt either.

This misconception has been around for ages, why won't it just die?


----------



## Yuki (Jul 26, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Because absolutely no one knew what he could do.
> 
> And he wasn't training,  he was barely fighting.
> 
> ...



The fact he scared Shanks proves that is false. 

Because he thought he needed the DF to become the best.

But clearly that's also false as he is massively powerful as proven by him you know, being a Yonko.


----------



## Extravlad (Jul 26, 2015)

> The fact he scared Shanks proves that is false.


Why wouldn't he scare Shanks? He is a sneaky guy with huge ambition, that just stole a powerful DF after hiding in WB's shadow for years.

BB might have given Shanks this scar when they were both kids on Newgate's ship, don't forget that Shanks was 15 when Rogr died, and Teach is only 1 year older than Shanks.
Shanks might have noticed him back then when he was still a kid.

It's not Teach's strength that scared Shanks, in term of strength Pre Yami Teach was far from exceptional, he would've lost to Ace.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 26, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> The fact he scared Shanks proves that is false.
> 
> Because he thought he needed the DF to become the best.
> 
> But clearly that's also false as he is massively powerful as proven by him you know, being a Yonko.


We don't know how strong Blackbeard and Shanks were when that happened, for all we know Shanks was still a rookie on Roger's ship.
And yeah, Blackbeard is now an Emperor, but two years ago he was fodder to top tiers, as shown when he was literally destroyed by a half faced Whitebeard.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 26, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> The fact he scared Shanks proves that is false.
> 
> Because he thought he needed the DF to become the best.
> 
> But clearly that's also false as he is massively powerful as proven by him you know, being a Yonko.



We don't know when this happened this only that it didn't happen when shanks became a yonkou and was at the epitome of power. 

He became a yonkou holding two of the most powerful DF's in each hand. 

Prior to gaining the fruit the likes of marco and Josu would shit on him, as a combatant he wasn't special.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 26, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Yes his power is making Ice. Or more accurately like all Logia he IS ice, and he can effectively "create" ice by extending and detaching his own body. Like when he throws partisans or with his Pheasant Beak move.
> 
> The reason he can freeze stuff is that ice IS cold and thus he can emanate cold. Just like how Croc can dry people because sand IS dry. In each case Kuzan and Crocodile are simply transferring the quality of the make-up of their body. Kuzan's power is not to freeze things. It is to turn into ice, and because ice is cold he can freeze things. That's the order of causality. Saying Kuzan's power is not to create ice, it's to make things freeze is like saying Croc's power is not to create sand, it's to make things dry. It's simply wrong. The power to make things X is an ability they gain by virtue of transforming their bodies into an element which has certain qualities. No different from Akainu making things melt either.
> 
> *This misconception has been around for ages, why won't it just die*?



Because It's not being properly explained.  There actually is a difference between *Ice* and *Cold*. There are much colder temperatures than ice which going by kiji's feats is what's happening.

Aokiji is essentially doing what a freezer does. 

His method of reanimating his body actually is consistent with that effect.

He's an Ice man in a loose sense. Unless Ice can reach sub zero temperatures.

That's where the misconception lies and what's causing problems.  Water is frozen at 32 degree F.   It means that everything he does is being done at this temperature.

That temperature don't make people scream out in pain or turn them into glass.


----------



## Coruscation (Jul 26, 2015)

What isn't explained? HE IS CALLED AN ICEMAN IN HIS VERY INTRODUCTION. You SEE HIM TURN INTO ICE. And EVERY OTHER LOGIA works like that. Apologies for the caps but this entire debate is absurdity, the foot needs to be put down. It is 100% crystal clear in the manga. There is no lack of any explanation, no ambiguity, not the faintest hint that it's anything else than what it looks like, talks like and smells like. Aokiji is 100% absolutely unambiguously an iceman. His Logia is ice. The exact same way Croc is a sandman and Akainu is a magmaman. Ice is cold, sand is dry and magma is hot and therefore Croc can dry things, Kuzan can freeze things and Akainu can burn and melt things. The effect and their abilities stems causally from their element's qualities.

His ice is bloody magical DF ice, that's why it can do more powerful that normal real world ice can't. Being touched by real world sand doesn't cause people to dry and shrivel up, jesus Canute. If you want to argue Kuzan is not ice but cold then you have to argue Croc is not sand by dryness. It's utter absurdity.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 26, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> What isn't explained? HE IS CALLED AN ICEMAN IN HIS VERY INTRODUCTION. You SEE HIM TURN INTO ICE. And EVERY OTHER LOGIA works like that. Apologies for the caps but this entire debate is absurdity, the foot needs to be put down. It is 100% crystal clear in the manga. There is no lack of any explanation, no ambiguity, not the faintest hint that it's anything else than what it looks like, talks like and smells like. Aokiji is 100% absolutely unambiguously an iceman. His Logia is ice. The exact same way Croc is a sandman and Akainu is a magmaman. Ice is cold, sand is dry and magma is hot and therefore Croc can dry things, Kuzan can freeze things and Akainu can burn and melt things. The effect and their abilities stems causally from their element's qualities.



So he's basically freezing everything and everyone  at 28 degree F?


----------



## Coruscation (Jul 26, 2015)

No, his ice is magical ice that is however cold Oda wants it to be. Why aren't you questioning Croc's sand by the same logic? When you go out to the beach do you dry and shrivel up from touching the sand? No?


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 26, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Ace changed the climate of drum island by just being on it for a while.



He was probably using his power.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 26, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> No, his ice is magical ice that is however cold Oda wants it to be. Why aren't you questioning Croc's sand by the same logic? When you go out to the beach do you dry and shrivel up from touching the sand? No?



So Akainu is magical magma?


Also  why didn't Josu's hand freeze when he took up the chunk of ice seeing that it was supposed to be THAT cold?


----------



## Coruscation (Jul 26, 2015)

Does steel instantly melt into nothingness just from normal magma being near it, not even touching? I imagine not so yeah. And Monet's snow is magical snow. You know since regular snow can't block a Hardened Jet Gatling. I don't know why I'm having to explain this but Oda usually takes real life concepts and exaggerates them to make cool abilities. Ice = cold = freezing. He doesn't intend for people to do a fucking scientific inquiry about it and twist everything into some weird fanfiction theoretics that deny the manga itself.

That was just normal ice that wasn't being reinforced by Aokiji's own power by that point. Aokiji's power source is his own body, that's why when he touches people directly or keeps a connection, like touching the tsunamis with ice spears connected to his hands, he can up the intensity. Once it's no longer in contact with him it's just normal ice.


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 26, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Does steel instantly melt into nothingness just from normal magma being near it, not even touching? I imagine not so yeah. And Monet's snow is magical snow. You know since regular snow can't block a Hardened Jet Gatling. I don't know why I'm having to explain this but Oda usually takes real life concepts and exaggerates them to make cool abilities. Ice = cold = freezing. He doesn't intend for people to do a fucking scientific inquiry about it and twist everything into some weird fanfiction theoretics that deny the manga itself.
> 
> That was just normal ice that wasn't being reinforced by Aokiji's own power by that point. Aokiji's power source is his own body, that's why when he touches people directly or keeps a connection, like touching the tsunamis with ice spears connected to his hands, he can up the intensity. Once it's no longer in contact with him it's just normal ice.



So his magical ice are at higher temperatures and is not to be confused with the the ice akainu obliterated.


----------



## Dunno (Jul 26, 2015)

You guys have got your physics all wrong. Ice does not have a lowest temperature except for absolute zero. It's highest possible temperature is 273,15 degrees Kelvin (32 degrees Fahrenheit and 0 degrees Celsius) at which point it begins to melt if heated further. It's lowest possible temperature is theoretically absolute zero (0 K, - 459.67 F, -273,15 C). The ice on Pluto is for example around 50 Kelvin (-223 C or -370 F). 

Whether Aokiji's ice will melt or Akainu's magma will freeze depends entirely on the heat capacity, temperature and mass of the elements they produce; There's no magical rule stating that magma always melts ice or vice versa. 

Aokiji's ice is obviously the coldest when he just produced it, and then it quickly starts getting warmer in normal temperatures. The temperature probably also varies depending on how much energy he puts into creating it.


----------



## Yuki (Jul 26, 2015)

I shall just agree with Dunno. He/she has owned me in this discussion before.  So me playing it safe.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 26, 2015)

Aokiji is a ice man people still being silly about this.


----------



## Dellinger (Jul 26, 2015)

I'm pretty sure the term used for Aokiji was a freezing human(氷結人間 Hyōketsu Ningen),not an ice man.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 26, 2015)

Dunno said:


> You guys have got your physics all wrong. Ice does not have a lowest temperature except for absolute zero. It's highest possible temperature is 273,15 degrees Kelvin (32 degrees Fahrenheit and 0 degrees Celsius) at which point it begins to melt if heated further. It's lowest possible temperature is theoretically absolute zero (0 K, - 459.67 F, -273,15 C). The ice on Pluto is for example around 50 Kelvin (-223 C or -370 F).
> 
> Whether Aokiji's ice will melt or Akainu's magma will freeze depends entirely on the heat capacity, temperature and mass of the elements they produce; There's no magical rule stating that magma always melts ice or vice versa.
> 
> Aokiji's ice is obviously the coldest when he just produced it, and then it quickly starts getting warmer in normal temperatures. The temperature probably also varies depending on how much energy he puts into creating it.




Oh well, then we should also take into consideration different pressures and temparatures at which ice can exist (>273K):


----------



## Dunno (Jul 27, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Oh well, then we should also take into consideration different pressures and temparatures at which ice can exist (>273K):



Well, if the pressure is 10000 times stronger or 100 times weaker in One Piece than on our planet, then it is relevant. I don't think it is.


----------



## Gohara (Jul 27, 2015)

Blackbeard wins with mid to high (closer to mid than high) difficulty, IMO.  Aokiji is likely faster- but Blackbeard is likely physically stronger, likely has better defense, likely has better Haki, and has more powerful Devil Fruit abilities than Aokiji.  The Yonkou also have significantly better feats, hype, and portrayal than the Admirals do so far.


----------



## jNdee~ (Jul 27, 2015)

What the fuck?

Yonkous have better feats? What?

Aside from WB, who has feats? You only ride a hype train.


----------



## Gohara (Jul 27, 2015)

Whitebeard is a Yonkou, so I don't see why he would be excluded, but I would also throw out Shanks' Haki feat around Jozu- although I would say that's more portrayal than a feat.  Jozu, who has fought on par with an Admiral, groaned just by being in Shanks' relatively relaxed presence.  I'm also comparing those feats to the Admirals' feats.  Around a handful of characters notably below Yonkou level have fought on par with Admirals and in some cases have received similar portrayal as them.


----------



## jNdee~ (Jul 27, 2015)

WB had the title of WSM, he was stronger than any yonkou or admiral.

Really, you compare Shanks's haki show to C3 h2h combat with WB? Around a handful characters fought on par with an admiral but are you gonna disregard the fact that an those 3 admirals also fought on par with Whitebeard?


----------



## Gohara (Jul 28, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> WB had the title of WSM, he was stronger than any yonkou or admiral.



Whether or not the title includes his reduced power and/or illness is unknown, so whether or not he's the most powerful Yonkou at the time is debatable, although I do think he's at least the second most powerful Yonkou at the time.  Either way, Akainu is also the most powerful Admiral at the time.



jNdee~ said:


> Really, you compare Shanks's haki show to C3 h2h combat with WB? Around a handful characters fought on par with an admiral but are you gonna disregard the fact that an those 3 admirals also fought on par with Whitebeard?



I'm saying that Jozu didn't even react to the spirit power of any of the Admirals even when they were going all out, and spirit power is a good indicator of overall power, so yeah I do think it says something that Jozu has fought on par with an Admiral and yet groans just by being in Shanks' relaxed presence.


----------



## Akitō (Jul 28, 2015)

Gohara said:


> yet groans just by being in Shanks' relaxed presence.



Can you provide a link to the panel you're referring to?


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 28, 2015)

The were some random fodders who were chilled when Shanks was releasing his haki at *max power*(WB said that), so not sure what Gohara's point actually is


----------



## Orca (Jul 28, 2015)

People bringing in graphs and shit


----------



## Kaiser (Jul 28, 2015)

I like how this thread turned into a chemical lesson


----------



## Freechoice (Jul 28, 2015)

BB takes this

Sorry Kuzano bro



Extravlad said:


> No Yonkou can very high diff Kuzan.



Shanks can


----------



## jNdee~ (Jul 28, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Whether or not the title includes his reduced power and/or illness is unknown, so whether or not he's the most powerful Yonkou at the time is debatable, although I do think he's at least the second most powerful Yonkou at the time.  Either way, Akainu is also the most powerful Admiral at the time.



Only you don't know that. It's pretty much a manga fact.





> I'm saying that Jozu didn't even react to the spirit power of any of the Admirals even when they were going all out, and spirit power is a good indicator of overall power, so yeah I do think it says something that Jozu has fought on par with an Admiral and yet groans just by being in Shanks' relaxed presence.



Jozu wasn't fazed by Shanks, he was just impressed by how spirited Shanks presence is. And Jozu fought on par with an Admiral? IIRC, he got one shotted, don't even start the excuses of Marco's well being.

Just to add some sallt, neither of the Admirals didn't even react to WB's spirit power. I don't know how you use logic. I'm done here, I've said my point. It's up to you if you want to keep disregarding actual manga facts.


----------



## Yuki (Jul 28, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> The were some random fodders who were chilled when Shanks was releasing his haki at *max power*(WB said that), so not sure what Gohara's point actually is



Where was that stated... because haki was not even a named thing back then. >_>


----------



## Freechoice (Jul 28, 2015)

Choo Choo!

I love the hype train

Nothing but joy awaits


----------



## Turrin (Jul 29, 2015)

Kuzan wouldn't be playing second fiddle to Teach, if he was stronger than him.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 29, 2015)

^Assuming Aokiji is blackbeard subordinate 

Or that Aokiji's plans  to work with him  hinges on whether or not blackbeard is stronger them him.


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## jNdee~ (Jul 29, 2015)

what supports the idea that Kuzan works for Teach?

As far as we know, they were just in acquaintance of each other


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## Kaiser (Jul 29, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Where was that stated... because haki was not even a named thing back then. >_>


Here



In the original translation they were mostly using the world "ambition" to describe this type of haki, but it was already mentioned back then, just like with mantra but under different names


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## Coruscation (Jul 29, 2015)

It was used back in Jaya when Blackbeard talked about Luffy too IIRC.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jul 29, 2015)

Dunno said:


> Well, if the pressure is 10000 times stronger or 100 times weaker in One Piece than on our planet, then it is relevant. I don't think it is.



My point being that with enough mastery Kuzan should be able to circumvent things like that. For instance smoker and caesar can pressurize their gaseous forms enough to pick up stuff in a semi solid form


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## Jake CENA (Jul 29, 2015)

I thought Aokiji's df is cold cold no mi?

His power is not entirely ice based but lowering the temperature around him which causes ice to appear and things to freeze.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 29, 2015)

^No he is a iceman.

When you punch him he shatters into Ice


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## Dunno (Jul 29, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> My point being that with enough mastery Kuzan should be able to circumvent things like that. For instance smoker and caesar can pressurize their gaseous forms enough to pick up stuff in a semi solid form



He might be able to yes, but why would he want to? Colder ice should always be better, no? My point is that ice doesn't have a "temperature", but rather varies a lot. Therefore, how effective it is against Akainu's magma depends on how cold he can make it.


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## Gohara (Jul 29, 2015)

Akitō said:


> Can you provide a link to the panel you're referring to?



Sure.  





Kaiser said:


> The were some random fodders who were chilled when Shanks was releasing his haki





Also, if Jozu groans just from being in Shanks' relaxed presence, then it's safe to assume those weaker than Jozu agree with him.  Oda doesn't have to have thousands of individual characters groan just for us to know that.



jNdee~ said:


> It's pretty much a manga fact.



Then we have to say that Kaidou and Moriah have fought on par with one another, since that has been stated in the Manga.  I can use many other examples as well.  All we know is that Whitebeard has the title.  The specifics of when he got the title and whether or not it includes his illness and reduced power are unknown.  Also, how would Dragon and Shanks win that title without defeating Old Whitebeard?  In which case, when have they fought?



jNdee~ said:


> Jozu wasn't fazed by Shanks





Jozu is impressed, but he groans just by being in his relaxed presence.



jNdee~ said:


> And Jozu fought on par with an Admiral? IIRC, he got one shotted, don't even start the excuses of Marco's well being.



It's a valid excuse, so I actually am going to bring that up.  Excluding surprise blows, they fight for a while without either having the notable edge.



jNdee~ said:


> neither of the Admirals didn't even react to WB's spirit power.



Actually they had to team up to block a wave of Haki from Whitebeard.  I'm not sure what your point is either way, since it doesn't give us a relative comparison to make.  The relative comparison I'm bringing up is that Jozu thinks more of Shanks than he does the Admirals.  The Admirals do multiple other things to tell us how impressed they are with Whitebeard's level of power, including Sengoku who we can all agree is at least around Admiral level.


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## Dellinger (Jul 29, 2015)

It was never stated that Moriah was equal to Kaido,what the hell.

Jozu got a free shot and after a couple of moments he lost.Marco failed to land strong hits on all 3 Admirals.He achieved nothing.

They Admirals did not say shit about WB's power.They just went ahead and tried to fight him.Managing to stop him from advancing and even dealing massive blows to him.


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## jNdee~ (Jul 29, 2015)

oh my god Gohara. You were talking about Shanks's CotC then out of nowhere pull WB's charged up Quake infused Bisento swing.


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## Gohara (Jul 30, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> It was never stated that Moriah was equal to Kaido







White Hawk said:


> Jozu got a free shot and after a couple of moments he lost.



I'm not including Jozu's surprise blow on Aokiji just like I'm not including Aokiji's surprise blow on Jozu.  Shinigami Tousen defeats all the Vizards combined with surprise blows.  Yet, Shinji alone is many times more powerful than Shinigami Tousen, and the Vizards combined are more powerful than him even more so.  Excluding surprise blows, Jozu fought on par with Aokiji for a while with neither having the notable edge over the other.



White Hawk said:


> Marco failed to land strong hits on all 3 Admirals.He achieved nothing.



Marco sent Aokiji flying, although with a surprise blow, and overpowered Kizaru- so I'm not sure what you mean.  Akainu is the only Admiral that Marco has fought at all and has yet to land a blow on.  However, he's barely fought Akainu, and if I remember correctly we've seen characters less powerful than Marco be able to clash with Akainu when Jinbe clashes with Akainu.



White Hawk said:


> They Admirals did not say shit about WB's power.



Sengoku says a lot about Whitebeard's level of power- and Sengoku, Garp, Akainu, Kizaru, and Aokiji gathering together to fight Whitebeard speaks for itself as does it taking all three Admirals combined at the time to block a side effect of a blow from Whitebeard.  Also, that doesn't really have much to do with my point.  With Jozu, we have a relative comparison to make.  He thinks a lot about Shanks' relaxed level of power, but doesn't say anything using words or otherwise about the Admirals' level of power even though he sees them going all out.



jNdee~ said:


> You were talking about Shanks's CotC then out of nowhere pull WB's charged up Quake infused Bisento swing.



Whitebeard doesn't use his Bisento, and it's a side effect of a blow from Whitebeard, and yet it takes all three Admirals to block it.  Also, I'm not bringing that up out of no where.  You're saying that the Admirals haven't said anything to suggest that they think highly of Whitebeard's level of power compared to other characters.  Yet they all three have to team up to block the side effect of a blow from Whitebeard, and Sengoku says a lot about Whitebeard's level of power, so I'm saying that they seem to think highly of Whitebeard's level of power compared to other characters.  Jozu doesn't do or say anything like that about the Admirals.  He thinks that he's able to fight on par with an Admiral, and he proceeds to fight on par with an Admiral for a while when you exclude surprise blows.


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## jNdee~ (Jul 30, 2015)

All three of them had to block it to protect the HQ. I doubt they really needed to block it to protect themselves. You keep bringing up the time that they blocked the Quake infused attack focused on the HQ, why not point out that each time WB had a 1v1 with them, he never gained the upper hand, and in fact was always forced to play defense. 

And stop using the surprise blow, if surprise blow was an issue, then be logical enough to accept the possibility of Old WB losing his fight with Akainu without a surprise blow. And I doubt you'd do that.


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## Gohara (Jul 31, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> All three of them had to block it to protect the HQ. I doubt they really needed to block it to protect themselves.



It's not necessarily about what they were defending.  It's about a side effect of a blow from a far away standing Whitebeard taking all three of them to block it.



jNdee~ said:


> You keep bringing up the time that they blocked the Quake infused attack focused on the HQ



I'm pointing that out because you're saying the Admirals don't say anything to suggest that they think highly of Whitebeard's level of power compared to other characters, and I'm saying that scene and 6-7 Admiral level or above (some I would say are above- but let's say Admiral level to avoid discussing semantics) characters gathering to fight Whitebeard speaks for itself.  Then there's what Sengoku says about Whitebeard's level of power.



jNdee~ said:


> why not point out that each time WB had a 1v1 with them, he never gained the upper hand, and in fact was always forced to play defense.



The reason for that is simple, it's because I don't agree that Whitebeard didn't gain the upper hand against the only Admiral he fought for more than a very brief scene (and I also don't agree that Whitebeard didn't gain the upper hand against Aokiji during their first confrontation and whether or not he did in the second one is debatable).



jNdee~ said:


> And stop using the surprise blow, if surprise blow was an issue, then be logical enough to accept the possibility of Old WB losing his fight with Akainu without a surprise blow. And I doubt you'd do that.



I don't consider Akainu having a verbal warning multiple panels prior to Whitebeard landing a blow on him a surprise blow.  However, even if I did and we excluded the Whitebeard vs. Akainu fight, that would leave us without any Whitebeard vs. Admiral fights.  Although the idea that Akainu fights on par with Whitebeard or comes close to it is disputable and something I don't agree with, that's one of the only pieces of evidence brought up for the Admirals when discussing the Yonkou vs. Admirals.  Without the interpretation of Whitebeard besting Akainu by a significant amount for those who bring that up for the Yonkou, there is still a lot of evidence suggesting that the Yonkou are notably more powerful than the Admirals.  So excluding the Whitebeard vs. Akainu fight would only enhance the arguments for the Yonkou being notably more powerful than the Admirals.


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