# Kakashi and Itachi vs Uchiha Madara



## Santoryu (May 11, 2013)

vs



Madara is* not granted *a edo-tensei body. Oh yeah, this is EMS Madara. I know the Rinnegan picture is misleading, but yeah, it's hilarious.
Restrictions: Neither side is allowed to utilize any ocular techniques for the first 30 seconds of the match. 
Knowledge: Full
Distance: 30 m
SOM: IC
Location: Kakashi vs Zabuza round 1

Scenario 2: Kakashi and Itachi are aided by Gai (final gate restricted)​


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## Rocky (May 11, 2013)

Kakashi hides underground for 30 seconds while Itachi is reduced to nothing by Madara's firestorms.

Now it's Kakashi vs. Madara. Who do you think wins.


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## Shinobi no Kami (May 11, 2013)

you didnt nerf madara. taking away an edo tensei body wont affect madaras combat abilities. madara one-shots these 2 with juubi sized katons.


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## Santoryu (May 11, 2013)

What do you guys think about scenario 2?


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## KeyofMiracles (May 11, 2013)

Madara destroys. While Kakashi can hide under ground, Itachi will be fried by Madara's fire style. Once the 30 seconds are up Madara calls Susanoo and proceeds to rape Kakashi. Susanoo is mainly for Kamui defense as Kakashi can't warp all of it, and if he can he still needs to focus so Madara will hit him with a Magatama or something to kill him or cancel the warp.

Madara destroys.

If Guy goes gates right off the bat and uses Hirudora then they can win this.


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## joshhookway (May 11, 2013)

Itachi wins with tosuka. Katons aren't killing anyone


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## DaVizWiz (May 11, 2013)

Location is important here, as katons will be used. If there's water nearby, even more important. 

Madara only knows Kakashi, and not by much. He encountered B, Gai and Naruto. He saw Kakashi once in the battle, and it's doubtful Obito said anything about him. 

Thus, the only real question is whether or not the arrogant douchebag thinks a random man and this guy who appeared at the final battle with considerable speed and ability to hold off an autopilot Obito are capable of killing him in 30 seconds before he brings out Susano.

Also, assuming Itachi cannot dig is pretty extreme when pre-skip Naruto showed the capability. Assuming Itachi doesn't get in the hole with Kakashi is an even more ridiculous assumption. Assuming his bone-fire katons, which spread and can be used flame-thrower style don't somehow enter that hole and blow them to shit is the most ridiculous assumption. That, however, is countered with a mud wall, which pushes over the hole and protects them.

Itachi and Kakashi are both suiton users, they can utilize shadow clones who can utilize their ninjutsu- so we're looking at 4 suiton users, mud walls, and digging. Blocking the katon with his own is also an option, Itachi's fireball is massive and moves at a considerable speed. 

*EDIT*: Didn't see full knowledge. Katons will be used immediately.


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## Nikushimi (May 11, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> Restrictions: Neither side is allowed to utilize any ocular techniques for the first 30 seconds of the match.
> Knowledge: Full
> Distance: 30 m



Madara torches them both casually.



> Scenario 2: Kakashi and Itachi are aided by Gai (final gate restricted)



Gai soloes; he opens the 7th Gate and then blitzes and kills Madara like fodder well within the first 30 seconds of the match.


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## Rocky (May 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Gai soloes; he opens the 7th Gate and then blitzes and kills Madara like fodder well within the first 30 seconds of the match.




Madara can react to Naruto's flicker and redirect his Mini Bijuudama, which is above anything Gai is going to be doing IC in the first 30 seconds.


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## DaVizWiz (May 12, 2013)

> Madara can react to Naruto's flicker and redirect his Mini Bijuudama, which is above anything Gai is going to be doing IC in the first 30 seconds.


With full knowledge IC goes out the window.

AT will kill Madara at start battle.

AT is arguably faster than Naruto's flicker, and certainly more powerful than his bitch-ass palm exploder.

Madara failed to react to Naruto's flicker when the friend's clones flashed across the battlefield before the dude's sword could reach Gyuki standing directly in front.

Let's be honest here, nobody in the manga can even perceive his plot-*unrestricted* KCM usealed-Kurama flicker outside of V2 super-charged Ei and Minato. 7th Gated Gai MAYBE throws a MP punch. Ei would be able to put a guard up, and Minato would struggle to port out of the way depending on the distance. That's all. Kakashi/Obito aren't using kamui, Itachi isn't putting up Susano, Nagato is not Preta/STing him, and Muu is not splitting. 

Everyone would stand there and get slaughtered- without that bullshit vintage Kisame "I see it but can't react" 

and/or "!" symbol coupled with a serious face-look like you feel like you're in danger but don't know how and suddenly- SPLAT.


Unrestricted Naruto is unperceived by even the man who reacts to FTG


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## Rocky (May 12, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> With full knowledge IC goes out the window.




False.



> AT will kill Madara at start battle.




False.




> AT is arguably faster than Naruto's flicker, and certainly more powerful than his bitch-ass palm exploder.




AT is fodder speed compared to Naruto's Shunshin. The mere power he generated from it allowed him to bitch slap 5 heavy ass Bijuudama miles away.

And Kisame wouldn't survive a Mini-Bijuudama when he could barley take Bee's lariat.


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## Nikushimi (May 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Madara can react to Naruto's flicker and redirect his Mini Bijuudama, which is above anything Gai is going to be doing IC in the first 30 seconds.



Madara can also die like fodder when Gai hits him with a kick moving @ 300km/h.


Madara: Holy shit, what the fuck is that green thing moving @ 300km/h?!

Itachi: I dunno, damn, my 3 tomoe sharigan can't keep up!

Kakashi: _(I'm out of chakra...!)_

*Madara tries to use Perfect Susano'o but it fails*

*Gai pwns him with a kick*


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## Nikushimi (May 12, 2013)

On a serious note, no one should actually be stupid enough to think Madara is capable of evading or otherwise outpacing Gated Gai.

No one.

I don't care about his performance against Naruto.

I don't want to hear excuses.

Madara is no faster than Kakashi or Itachi.

The Raikage was lucidly faster than him and even Tsunade was able to land a blow or two.

Gated Gai will prison-destroy his asshole.


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## Rocky (May 12, 2013)

If Gai was bloodlusted yes, he would put Madara over his knee.


_________



So you ignore his performance against Bijuu Mode Naruto's who's much faster than Gai, because of random observations you've made. Seems legit.


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## Nikushimi (May 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If Gai was bloodlusted yes, he would put Madara over his knee.



Okay, good.



> So you ignore his performance against Bijuu Mode Naruto's who's much faster than Gai, because of random observations you've made. Seems legit.



Bijuu Mode Naruto can hold my dick while Madara sucks it.

Madara is not as fast as Naruto's Bijuu Mode. Madara was not even fast enough to keep up with the Raikage, nor was he fast enough to run circles around the other four Kage, which is something the Raikage himself could do.


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## Rocky (May 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Bijuu Mode Naruto can hold my dick while Madara sucks it.
> 
> Madara is not as fast as Naruto's Bijuu Mode. Madara was not even fast enough to keep up with the Raikage, nor was he fast enough to run circles around the other four Kage, which is something the Raikage himself could do.




Cute, but in all actuality Madara shoves his fan up Gai's ass.

Madara doesn't need to be as fast as Gated Gai, he has the Sharingan to increase reflexes.

If Madara can react and casually counter an opponent faster than Gated Gai, then Gai will not blitz. Yay logic.


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## DaVizWiz (May 12, 2013)

> False.


True.



> False.


True.

Oh shit, looks like I can project my will without explanation too. Don't I sound stupid? 



> AT is fodder speed compared to Naruto's Shunshin. The mere power he generated from it allowed him to bitch slap 5 heavy ass Bijuudama miles away.


And you're suggesting Madara reacted to this level speed? 

The friend got a taste of Naruto's toddler level blink shunshin. 



NOT the real shit. Up to this point, Killer B, Guy and Kakashi have admitted to not even being able to perceive Naruto's unplotrestricted shunshin. 

AT is the fastest punch in the manga. It blitzed Madara without a reaction- from 100+m out- before the dude could stab Naruto with a sword:




> And Kisame wouldn't survive a Mini-Bijuudama when he could barley take Bee's lariat.


Are you suggesting AT is less powerful than a firecracker in his palm exploder? 

The thing creates gale winds from kilometers away. 



> If Gai was bloodlusted yes, he would put Madara over his knee.


Bloodlusted has nothing to do with it- he's aware of all of Madara's abilities and has the chance to kill him at start battle before Sharingan comes into play.

Your logic is ridiculous. 



> So you ignore his performance against Bijuu Mode Naruto's who's much faster than Gai, because of random observations you've made. Seems legit.


Who's performances? At what point did Madara "perform" against BM Naruto?

When he utilized Hashirama's Mokuton and kept a safe distance?


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## Rocky (May 12, 2013)

Naruto's "toddler level blink Shunshin" huh....okay. I see you bro. I see you.


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## DaVizWiz (May 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto's "toddler level blink Shunshin" huh....okay. I see you bro. I see you.


For the record:

You're suggesting KCM Naruto's advance toward Madara's fan in KCM from 200m out then dropping in from 10m at gravity-speed announcing his position without a single movement from either Obito or Madara before beginning his drop is equal to these shunshins in caliber:





If so, feel free to openly address yourself as Madara fanboy hence forth, since Madara manages to get blitzed by:

Tsunade
Afternoon Tiger
V2 Ei
V2 Onoki Backpack Ei
KM Gated Lee

and ironically

KCM Naruto 

on panel [2].

Twice, that is, if we count the 190m he shunshin'd in my original two panels without a reaction from Madara or Obito until announcement, where Madara only reacts with a move of a fan at the end of a slow-ass fall [1] [2]


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## Jinemba (May 12, 2013)

As far as I am concerned in speed it is Minato > Raikage > Gai. To jog my own memory here the Raikage alone was fast enough to have his fist on Minato nose before Minato could finish reacting to FTG away. And just a second ago Madara just took on the same Raikage but made even faster by Onoki, and 4 other kage happening all at the same time.

So now....how the fxck does a single Gate ANYTHING Gai become a threat to Madara?

Don't bring any bullcrap just because a character is fast, yes speed is a huge factor, yes it is one of the strongest skills to have but as much as super speed would be haxx in real life fact remains that in the manga it does not work that way. Speed can be dealt with.

Some might argue that 7-8 gate Gai is faster than the Raikage which there is no proof of but regardless a Raikage lightened by Onoki is a whole step above the raikage normally in terms of speed any his speed is already ridiculous. 


If Madara can handle:
Tsunade <---healing and super strength
Mei <---large scale attacks, lots of elements
Gaara <---ultimate defense
Onoki <---ultimate offense
LIGHTENED Raikage <---ultimate speed


Then this should be no problem for a short 30 seconds:
Kakashi <---hiding to not be insta'd
Itachi <---might as well be Konohamaru without his eye tech for these 30 seconds
7 gate Gai <---Top tier speed


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## Legendary Itachi (May 12, 2013)

Jinemba said:


> As far as I am concerned in speed it is Minato > Raikage > Gai. To jog my own memory here the Raikage alone was fast enough to have his fist on Minato nose before Minato could finish reacting to FTG away. And just a second ago Madara just took on the same Raikage but made even faster by Onoki, and 4 other kage happening all at the same time.
> 
> So now....how the fxck does a single Gate ANYTHING Gai become a threat to Madara?
> 
> ...



Minato > Raikage in speed?
FTG is Time-Space Ninjutsu which has nothing to speed, Minato > Raikage in reflexes

But you're right, Madara can deal with Guy speed, plus when does IC Guy enter 7 Gates at start......


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## Rocky (May 12, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> 190m he shunshin'd




Where'd you get the distance? 

Eyeballing it?


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## DaVizWiz (May 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Where'd you get the distance?
> 
> Eyeballing it?


What would be your guess? 

200m, 100m, 1 foot- a blitz is a blitz.


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## Rocky (May 12, 2013)

Madara was never blitzed by Naruto, my child.


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## DaVizWiz (May 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Madara was never blitzed by Naruto, my child.


Of course he was, did you not see my scans?

Naruto shunshin'd across a battlefield and grabbed his Susano Sword.

Naruto sunshin'd 200m across a battlefield and talked shit while floating- without a reaction. The dude fell into his fan via plot. 

#DatOrangeFlash

Tsunade, Ei and Afternoon Tiger also blitzed his bitchass. The guy is helpless.


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## Baroxio (May 12, 2013)

Why are people acting like Kakashi can't bring Itachi underground with him or anything? 

At any rate, once the time limit is up, it all depends on how well Kamui can get through Madara's Susano.

I'm assuming this is EMS Madara, BTW, since anything else would likely rape.


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## DaVizWiz (May 12, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Why are people acting like Kakashi can't bring Itachi underground with him or anything?
> 
> At any rate, once the time limit is up, it all depends on how well Kamui can get through Madara's Susano.
> 
> I'm assuming this is EMS Madara, BTW, since anything else would likely rape.


Now now, you don't read closely do you?



			
				DaVizWiz said:
			
		

> Also, assuming Itachi cannot dig is pretty extreme when pre-skip Naruto showed the capability. Assuming Itachi doesn't get in the hole with Kakashi is an even more ridiculous assumption. Assuming his bone-fire katons, which spread and can be used flame-thrower style don't somehow enter that hole and blow them to shit is the most ridiculous assumption. That, however, is countered with a mud wall, which pushes over the hole and protects them.


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## KyuubiFan (May 12, 2013)

If it's Rin'negan Madara then he destroys them in an instant with Jukai Kotan/Kajukai Kourin in both scenarios.

If it's EMS Madara, he uses his huge ass Katons to force them into hiding, after that it depends if Kamui can get through his PS or not. In the second scenario Gai might get him with Hirudora, but nothing less would affect Madara.


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## Santoryu (May 12, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Location is important here, as katons will be used. If there's water nearby, even more important.


I've updated the OP: Location=Kakashi vs Zabuza round 1, and yeah, there's water.



Baroxio said:


> I'm assuming this is EMS Madara,.



Yeah it's EMS Madz; I updated the OP to clarify.


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## crisler (May 12, 2013)

something tells me even after their battle starts they won't be doing much in 30 seconds, but trying to analyze the situation thus making the 30s no doujutsu thing practically useless...

once MS comes into play madara should win easily. i mean, alright even it's not easy he will win in the end...

but if it's just base forms i'm sure madara gets raped.


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## Grimm6Jack (May 12, 2013)

Bijuu Mode Naruto's speed is inconsistent as fuck.
In KCM mode he is faster than the 4th Raikage... Yet in Bijuu mode Madara reacts to him?


Speed feats are inconsistent in these types of mangas.

Either way, Madara solos with ease, Kakashi and Itachi have nothing on him. Aside from finger genjutsu GG and Kamui GG.


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## Jinemba (May 12, 2013)

Naruto's speed is not inconsistent, people are just ignoring the possibility of an Uchiha possibly being top tier speed since we have never seen an Uchiha focus on anything but eye tech and strategy.

Madara has reacted to bijuu mode Naruto a couple of times now, he may not be up to par with Naruto in speed based on lacking feats but he has already proven that he can handle any level of speed. He handled the Raikage lightened by Onoki and it wasn't even like it stressed him out, he did that with 4 other kages there too. He has reacted to bijuu Mode Naruto now as well.

Really the only speed he hasn't been tested against is Minato's FTG, and based on the flashback Madara should be fully capable of handling an FTG user otherwise Tobirama could and would have killed Madara himself.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ Legendary Itachi

Yes I know that space/time is technically not speed because the person is not actually using speed to move from point to point. But you know what I mean, just about everyone in any Naruto forums refers to Minato as the fastest with FTG, even though we all know Teleportation is not speed. 

My point was that....


Normally: Minato > Raikage > Gai
But based on how close the Raikage could get to Minato by himself, it is safe to say that were he lightened by Onoki he would have gotten even closer to connecting him punch on Minato which is basically the Raikage actually would have landed the punch completely on Minato.

Lightened Raikage > Minato >> Gai

And Madara handled the lightened Raikage easily.


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## IchLiebe (May 12, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Minato > Raikage in speed?
> FTG is Time-Space Ninjutsu which has nothing to speed, Minato > Raikage in reflexes
> 
> But you're right, Madara can deal with Guy speed, plus when does IC Guy enter 7 Gates at start......



FTG is speed.


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## Rocky (May 12, 2013)

When they refer to the teleportation Jutsu, they're usually referring to the Body Flicker.


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## eyeknockout (May 12, 2013)

finger genjutsu to kakashi's raikiri and madara is dead.

without his ocular powers he isn't going to escape itachi's genjutsu in time. he won't even know he's in genjutsu until it's too late.

prove me wrong? i'm sure you're gonna say something like "you really think the ninja closest to the god of shinobi and a genjutsu master won't be able to break a basic non sharingan enhanced genjutsu" and my answer is YES


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## Rocky (May 12, 2013)

If you think Madara would look at Itachi's finger before roasting them, then maybe you would have a point.


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## IchLiebe (May 12, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> finger genjutsu to kakashi's raikiri and madara is dead.
> 
> without his ocular powers he isn't going to escape itachi's genjutsu in time. he won't even know he's in genjutsu until it's too late.
> 
> prove me wrong? i'm sure you're gonna say something like "you really think the ninja closest to the god of shinobi and a genjutsu master won't be able to break a basic non sharingan enhanced genjutsu" and my answer is YES



Don't...just don't.


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## Luftwaffles (May 12, 2013)

Kakashi solos with Kamui. 
Madara has no counter, IMO Kamui busts thru Susano'o.

Or we can just have Kakashi warp Itachi, Gai Hirudora's, Kakashi insta-warps Itachi to Madara's face with Totsuka, GG.


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