# [Spoilers] Rinnegan genjutsu prowess



## Ersa (Jun 18, 2015)

Now that there is a confirmed difference between the two, standard Rinnegan being weaker I wonder if we need to address the issue of Rinnegan's supposed genjutsu defense.

So it begs the question.

1.) Why did Madara switch to Sharingan to genjutsu Ei when Rinnegan is "superior"?
2.) 

Why is the Rinnegan is near completely featless when it comes to actual genjutsu while the Tomoe-Rinnegan isn't? Seems a little odd.

Tell me intelligent and unbiased posters of NBD.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Now that they're proven different you're likely right.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 18, 2015)

Kishimoto made them distinct when describing Kaguya's powers. They are separate dojutsu. Madara's Rinnegan acquisition(EMS -> Rinnegan) simply threw people off.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Jun 18, 2015)

So in other words Jubidara can't use and can fail to Genjutsu without using an inferior eyes and Fagoromo can give out some magic he doesn't possess?

What a genius writing, this Otsutsuki shit.


----------



## Ersa (Jun 18, 2015)

So the Nagato is immune to genjutsu theory falls flat on its face.

Excellent.


----------



## Dr. Leonard Church (Jun 18, 2015)

Nagato was immune to genjutsu? When did this happen?


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 18, 2015)

Combination of a fake translation of DB4 entry and some people being insecure when debating in Nagato-threads. Imo - Nagato by himself should be able to handle most if not all of "normal" genjutsu with ease - due to insane chakra control and Rinnegan being able to discern chakra. But top-tier stuff like Tsukuyomi or Sages genjutsu is going to wreck him if he isn't careful.


----------



## Deer Lord (Jun 18, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Now that there is a confirmed difference between the two, standard Rinnegan being weaker I wonder if we need to address the issue of Rinnegan's supposed genjutsu defense.
> 
> So it begs the question.
> 
> ...


1- isn't that a clone doing that to Ei?
I recall none of madara's clones were using rinnegan, just EMS.

2- what does this prove again?


Anyhow, to me it seems sasuke's Sharinnegan is just used for S/T
even if you want to make it akin to the MS-3T relation it doesn't really matter.

Madara and Kaguya already had the Rinne-Shringan which is the ultimate dojutsu
so the sauce can't do anything to them anyway.

And I don't see why would this distinction matter in the Rinnegan Vs Genjutsu debate.
Rinnegan users have never been hit with visual genjutsu, and the DB states that they're immune to it.
You can make a case for sauce being able to genjutsu rinnegan users with his superior dojutsu
but that's moot in madara/kaguya case. and also moot in nagato's case because sauce doesn't need genjutsu to whoop him.

the way I see it
Rinne-Sharingan>Sharinnegan>=Rinnegan>EMS>MS>Sharingan
but given the fact that 3T users can somewhat resist MS techs these differences aren't absolute.

tl;dr
I don't think this proves anything in any relevant debate.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 18, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> and the DB states that they're immune to it.


It was a fake translation...


----------



## Ersa (Jun 18, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> 1- isn't that a clone doing that to Ei?
> I recall none of madara's clones were using rinnegan, just EMS.


You are wrong.

He switched to EMS.



> 2- what does this prove again?


Kishimoto made them distinct when describing Kaguya's powers



> Anyhow, to me it seems sasuke's Sharinnegan is just used for S/T
> even if you want to make it akin to the MS-3T relation it doesn't really matter.


His Rinnegan can do S/T too.



> Rinnegan users have never been hit with visual genjutsu, and the DB states that they're immune to it.


It was a awful translation that was wrong 



> tl;dr
> I don't think this proves anything in any relevant debate.


Proves Nagato being immune to genjutsu is absolute rubbish.


----------



## ARGUS (Jun 18, 2015)

first of all there is no such thing as sharinnegan that people are attempting to pull, 
there is Rinne Sharingan which is Kaguyas eye or madaras third eye being used to pull IT, 

Sasukes 6 tomo Rinnegan is still rinnegan, the only difference being that its merged  with his previous sharingan powers, which results in the tomo, 

Rinnegan + tomo > Rinnegan itself, hence why sasuke calls it the full power of his eyes 
however does that change the fact that it was specifically the rinnegan itself that resistted IT?  no it doesnt, 
because a far weaker genjutsu like KA was to be used on EMS sasuke by Itachi, so if we take the whole rinnegan argument than the same EMS has no chance in resisting IT

hagoromo doesnt have the tomo in his rinnegan yet its completely illogical to assume that he was affected by IT, when sasukes watered down eyes to hagoromo resisted such genjutsu? 
it is also compeltely illogical to assume that sasukes rinnegan with tomo is superior to hagoromos rinnegan when it was the sole Yin chakra of hagoromo that awakened this eye in sasuke, 
and hagoromo  has the extra yang chakra as well as six path senjutsu powering his eyes, 

then there is also the fact that genjutsu only affects those with the same or inferior eyes, 
we have already seen that to be the case, 

arguments can be made for both cases, though i have never been of the opinion that someone with borrowed rinnegan can resist a genjutsu lke IT from the rinne sharingan which is superior to the rinnegan, 

but does that mean that someone withh the rinnegan would be affected by a measly 3T genjutsu? hell the fuck no


----------



## Deer Lord (Jun 18, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> You are wrong.
> 
> He switched to EMS.
> 
> ...


Well if the translation is wrong then ok then.
he would still be highly resistant to all the standart genjustsu anyway, for reasons stated above.

oh and the scan you provided only has original madara with rinnegan.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

Mugen Tsukuyomi is literally called a Rinnegan Genjutsu. And to break it or resist it requires a Rinngan. That's the strongest Genjutsu in the manga and it's Rinnegan. 

All the lastest chapter shows is that when a Rinnegan user is exhausted he can't maintain the tome on his Rinnegan.


----------



## Six (Jun 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Mugen Tsukuyomi is literally called a Rinnegan Genjutsu. And to break it or resist it requires a Rinngan. That's the strongest Genjutsu in the manga and it's Rinnegan.
> 
> All the lastest chapter shows is that when a Rinnegan user is exhausted he can't maintain the tome on his Rinnegan.



I think the rinne-sharingan is needed for infinite tsukuyomi not regular ringer


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2015)

I guess the Madara clones were not using Rinnegan. The same could've been said as to why they didn't absorb the Jinton.

EMS being stronger than Rinnegan is doubtful for me, not when you need to mix it with another more powerful DNA, but not any DNA, Senju.

I don't think Nagato would shrugg off Tsukuyomi, though. But he should have some sort of defense.


----------



## Kai (Jun 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Mugen Tsukuyomi is literally called a Rinnegan Genjutsu. And to break it or resist it requires a Rinngan. That's the strongest Genjutsu in the manga and it's Rinnegan.


However, to undo Mugen Tsukuyomi completely also requires the chakra of all nine tailed beasts. More than the Rinnegan is at play here.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> However, to undo Mugen Tsukuyomi completely also requires the chakra of all nine tailed beasts. More than the Rinnegan is at play here.



The Rinnegan is still the main instrument needed to cast, and dispel the illusion. You can say it just needs the extra firepower from the Bijuu. 





Ersatz said:


> Now that there is a confirmed difference between the two, standard Rinnegan being weaker I wonder if we need to address the issue of Rinnegan's supposed genjutsu defense.
> 
> So it begs the question.
> 
> ...



1.) We never saw if those clones were ever formed with the Rinnegan, notice how all their eyes are closed. As for why he'd use the EMS and not the superior Rinnegan, in case you forgot Madara didn't fight seriously till the end, obviously. That tells you why he didn't use Rinnegan Genjutsu. The Rinnegan has strong chakra, though not as strong as the enhanced Rinnegan. However Madara's chakra quality was stronger than Sasuke's, so combine that and Madara's Rinnegan and you get the reason why he didn't use Rinnegan Genjutsu.

2.) They're not separate. Hagoromo just pointed out aspects of Kaguya's power. Which turned out to be an eye you need the Rinnegan to awaken. If you need the Rinnegan to get such an eye, it hardly separates them. That's like saying the Sharingan and MS are separate.
Your assertion also contradicts Kabuto and Orochimaru's research wherein the Rinnegan is the Sharingan's final stop, which Madara didn't disagree with.

It isn't a coincidence that all the Indra transmigrants that awakened the Rinnegan had the Sharingan prior to that[1].

Why is the Rinnegan featless with Genjutsu is answered with this question: when as a Rinnegan user needed to worry about Genjutsu? Sasuke himself chose to use Rinnegan Genjutsu on a weak foe, Sakura. So it seems to be one of the Rinnegan's lesser options, however Madara on the other hand thought it was too much to use if he was playing around. 

So really and truly, as Itachi said, the Sharingan provides some resistance to Tsukuyomi, by extension Genjutsu. Meaning the MS, with superior chakra provides more resistance. EMS even more... and the Rinnegan even more than that. All the chapter proved is that the Rinnegan has an even higher level which can resist Genjutsu even more than the standard Rinnegan (but probably not to the level of the Rinne Sharingan). 



> Tell me intelligent and unbiased posters of NBD.



Read the manga, not bits and pieces, then you'll see the answers and indications to them are littered around.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> I think the rinne-sharingan is needed for infinite tsukuyomi not regular ringer


The manga just says Rinnegan and the Rinne-Sharingan is just a higher form of the Rinnegan anyway. 

I mean I don't know what's so hard to understand here people. Rinne-Sharingan came from the Juubi. Kaguya ate the Juubi's chakra via the Fruit and awakened Rinne-Sharingan. She than gave birth to Hagoromo who didn't inherit the full power of the Juubi, so he just got Rinnegan. Than he had a son Izuna who inherited even less power and he just got MS/EMS. Than over time the blood became diluted to the point where most Uchiha didn't get anymore than Three-Tome.

They aren't different Dojutsu, they are different stages of the same Dojutsu

Rinne-Sharingan > Rinnegan > Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan > Mangekyo Sharingan > Three Tome Sharigan > Two Tome Sharingan > One Tome Sharingan


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Wait, Hagoromo gave birth to Izuna? 

 Don't you mean Indra?


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 18, 2015)

What's the red thing on the forehead?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> What's the red thing on the forehead?



 That was after he sealed the Juubi wthin himself. He never had the Juubi's power originally.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 18, 2015)

Except he had it when he was sealing his mother...


----------



## ZE (Jun 18, 2015)

Funny, wasn't it said only the rinnegan can dispel Mugen Tsukuyomi?
And that you can only awaken the rinnesharingan if you have the rinnegan as Madara said. No tomoes were needed for him.

Kaguya was said by Hagoromo to have the powers of the sharingan and the byakugan, and Sasuke and Naruto heard that. Her sharingan powers came only through her third eye. When she cast Mugen Tsukuyomi, if that was indeed a combination of the sharingan and the rinnegan, Sasuke would've said so. Instead, he said Mugen Tsukuyomi was a rinnegan power, just as his spacetime jutsu is a rinnegan power and not a rinnegan+sharingan power. 

Also, when the people were under the effects of the Mugen Tsukoyomi, what did their eyes reflect? Rinnegan only, no tomoes. Clearly a rinnegan exclusive as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> What's the red thing on the forehead?


A tatoo lol. It's not a eye. You can see that very clearly here:
pulling a Tobirama


----------



## ZE (Jun 18, 2015)

When one who gets close to the moon, mugen tsukuyomi is cast from a new eye (we're talking about rinnesharingan here).

Hagoromo made the moon. I'm sure he was pretty close to it. The rest it's up for you to interpret it.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> A tatoo lol. It's not a eye. You can see that very clearly here:
> pulling a Tobirama


All I see is that red thing. A tattoo? What for? Why does Hagoromo decide to get himself that tattoo and Hamura doesn't?


----------



## ZE (Jun 18, 2015)

With all the shit the guy can do, coming back from the dead, summon people as a ghost, give people powers etc. it wouldn't surprise me if Hagoromo's red circle on his forehead was a dojutsu.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 18, 2015)

Yeah, they are proven to be completely seperate Dojutsu. 

Actually this became evident to me when I created that library thread about how Madara got his rinnegan, when he sacrificed his EMS to Izanagi after Vote.

It is clear now that EMS doesn't evolve into Rinnegan. Rinnegan awakens when certain prerequisites are met. EMS isn't one of them.

With that said, It is safe to assume Tsukiyomi or Koto oneshots Nagato.


----------



## Kai (Jun 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, they are proven to be completely seperate Dojutsu.
> 
> Actually this became evident to me when I created that library thread about how Madara got his rinnegan, when he sacrificed his EMS to Izanagi after Vote.
> 
> ...


It's obvious, without Kishi having to explicitly state it, that Madara's eyes were restored when he unlocked the Rinnegan. 

Rinnegan is an evolutionary stage, just like any other power that has progression. It's outright stated upon Madara's introduction as Edo Tensei. How the progression works is subject to debate when concerning the Rinne-Sharingan.

Obito wanted to progress Sasuke's eyes first into EMS by transplanting Itachi's eyes and later into the Rinnegan, eventually syncing him to the Gedo Mazo. Why not just give him Hashirama's cells then?


----------



## ZE (Jun 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, they are proven to be completely seperate Dojutsu.
> 
> Actually this became evident to me when I created that library thread about how Madara got his rinnegan, when he sacrificed his EMS to Izanagi after Vote.
> 
> ...



I guess tsukiyomi and koto also would one shot Madara since he has tomoeless rinnengan.

And since we're at it, frog song would one shot Madara, Hagoromo, Jyuubito etc. because sage jutsus>jyuubi jinchuuriki.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, they are proven to be completely seperate Dojutsu.



Are you purposely ignoring the manga [1][2]?

Looked at another way, you're basically saying, to uncover the information in the Uchiha tablet, you need two linked Doujutsu then a totally different Doujutsu which is not at all related.


----------



## ZE (Jun 18, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Looked at another way, you're basically saying, to uncover the information in the Uchiha tablet, you need two linked Doujutsu then a totally different Doujutsu which is not at all related.



That's a good point. 
Also, somehow tsukuyomi one shots a rinnengan user, yet having the rinnegan makes one immune to Mugen Tsukuyomi, a stronger version of that.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

ZE said:


> That's a good point.
> Also, somehow tsukuyomi one shots a rinnengan user, yet having the rinnegan makes one immune to Mugen Tsukuyomi, a stronger version of that.



Not to mention that as things are now, you can argue that the Rinne Sharingan is the extension of the Rinnegan considering there's a person who Kayuga fears that possesses the Rinnegan. I.E. the Rinnegan (and Byakugan) predate the Rinne Sharingan. 

IMO the agenda to try and force the fact that the Rinnegan is a totally different line of Doujutsu stems from the frustration from the Sharingan side of the old Sharingan vs Rinnegan debate (which is the superior Doujutsu). The Sharingan being a weakened Rinnegan (confirmed at least 3 times) made the notion of Sharingan related Genjutsu affecting Rinnegan users less credible.

Though we've got to consider chakra. The Sharingan has strong chakra, enough to resist illusions like Tsukuyomi. The MS with superior chakra can do it more... the EMS even more than that. The Rinnegan which has insane chakra power by Obito's standards (a MS user with Senju cells that Itachi feared).

This is what surprises me, it is usually those who tend to be active in the Itachi vs Rinnegan threads that try the hardest to push this poorly supported stance of the two Doujutsu being unrelated. 
One criticism I had of the stance was distorting manga context and ignoring manga evidence which goes against their arguments. The arguments presented in this thread are a point in case.

For instance, a bigger pro to the Rinnegan (more tomoe signify more power, thus more resistance) is being taken to mean that they are two different Doujutsu, to cite the salient point of the OP. As opposed to the obvious answer of the Rinnegan has higher levels.

To be honest, the latest chapter says nothing about Rinnegan vs (let's be honest) Itachi related Genjutsu. It just says the Rinnegan has the capability to evolve further. Strengthening its already insane resistance against MS Genjutsu, such as Tsukuyomi.

The third databook said the Rinnegan had infinite depths of power, which this chapter likely confirmed.
The Rinnegan plausibly has an infinite amount of rings. So most likely for each new depth of power a Rinnegan user reaches, a set of tomoe probably form on a ring of the Rinnegan. 

A Rinnegan's user's prowess against illusions probably increase when they power up the eye, when the Rinnegan dilates and releases powerful chakra. That must mean Sasuke's power, when he dilates his Rinnegan must be on another level. 

tl;dr: this new reveal about the transition from the Rinnegan to the tomoe Rinnegan was more news about the Rinnegan. 

Nothing about how the Sharingan plausibly stands a chance against it... that's like saying the Sharingan can beat the MS/EMS. 

--

On another note: it is worth noting that the only MS jutsu which could _challenge_ a basic Rinnegan (not one that's unlocked jutsu like Amenojikara and Limbo), not extended by the Rinne Sharingan, are those which seemed to be influenced by Hashirama's cells.
For example, Obito's Kamui which came around because he was half Uchiha and half Senju/Hashirama. Even Koto which was implied to be linked to Hashirama's cells (this is true unless you think Shisui couldn't use his own eyes for 10 years at a time).
Basically an MS with Asura's chakra influencing it.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Except he had it when he was sealing his mother...



 Well then, I feel bad for Hamura who gets complete shit.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Well then, I feel bad for Hamura who gets complete shit.



He got the Tenseigan and had about 5 Gedou Dama in base, about 10 with Tenseigan mode... well you can argue 15 if you assume the Tenseigan Gedo Dama would add additional Gedo Dama to the base amount.


----------



## ZE (Jun 18, 2015)

If the rinnegan was really a completely different dojutsu, then it wouldn't be possible to merge both. 

Also, the question here is, how do you awaken rinnesharingan, which everyone agrees is part sharingan? Yeah, you guessed it. You first need the rinnegan. If to awaken the strongest version of the sharingan there is you need to reach the rinnegan first, that should tell you something.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He got the Tenseigan and had about 5 Gedou Dama in base, about 10 with Tenseigan mode... well you can argue 15 if you assume the Tenseigan Gedo Dama would add additional Gedo Dama to the base amount.



 Well shit, was Tenseigan something introduced in Part 2?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> It's obvious, without Kishi having to explicitly state it, that Madara's eyes were restored when he unlocked the Rinnegan.
> 
> Rinnegan is an evolutionary stage, just like any other power that has progression. It's outright stated upon Madara's introduction as Edo Tensei. How the progression works is subject to debate when concerning the Rinne-Sharingan.
> 
> Obito wanted to progress Sasuke's eyes first into EMS by transplanting Itachi's eyes and later into the Rinnegan, eventually syncing him to the Gedo Mazo. Why not just give him Hashirama's cells then?


Was Madara's eyes restored ? Are we certain that he still had EMS in his right eye ? 

I actually have no idea why Obito was thinking like that, but I don't think that is an indicator of anything, that plot line was completely ditched and wasn't touched upon.

We know one thing though, Rinnegan doesn't possess Sharingan's abilities and vice versa.

EMS however, has all the abilities sharingan and Mangekyou sharingan has to offer.
If Rinnegan was the next stage of EMS, then logically it should have had access to sharingan's abilities, but for some reason it doesn't.

It is apparent what that reason is. They are seperate Dojutsu.



ZE said:


> I guess tsukiyomi and koto also would one shot Madara since he has tomoeless rinnengan.
> 
> And since we're at it, frog song would one shot Madara, Hagoromo, Jyuubito etc. because sage jutsus>jyuubi jinchuuriki.



Alive Madara should have at least EMS in 1 eye, so his 1 eye should have properties of both sharingan and Rinnegan @ his will. So no, you can't oneshot him.

Itachi and Sasuke broke that thing with their own genjutsu, so I am pretty sure there are other ways of breaking sage sound genjutsu.

And I particularly said Nagato because he is relatively a weak Rinnegan user, who doesn't have sharingan.
Both Obito and Madara had sharingan because they are natural born Uchiha.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Are you purposely ignoring the manga [1][2]?
> 
> Looked at another way, you're basically saying, to uncover the information in the Uchiha tablet, you need two linked Doujutsu then a totally different Doujutsu which is not at all related.



That doesn't say anything about EMS evolving into Rinnegan.


So yes, your beloved Nagato gets OHKO'D by Tsukiyomi.


----------



## Deer Lord (Jun 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Well shit, was Tenseigan something introduced in Part 2?


Tenseigan is from the Last.
Toneri has it in there, and it's basically to the byakugan what Rinnegan is to sharingan.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Was Madara's eyes restored ? Are we certain that he still had EMS in his right eye ?
> 
> I actually have no idea why Obito was thinking like that, but I don't think that is an indicator of anything, that plot line was completely ditched and wasn't touched upon.
> 
> ...


Nagato weilds Madara's eyes. So by your logic he should also have 1 eye with EMS.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 18, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Nagato weilds Madara's eyes. So by your logic he should also have 1 eye with EMS.



I think because he wasn't an Uchiha, he didn't have the capability of switching between EMS and Rinnegan.
He hasn't shown the capability, so there is no need to assume that he can.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Tenseigan is from the Last.
> Toneri has it in there, and it's basically to the byakugan what Rinnegan is to sharingan.



 That explains it. I haven't even watched the movie yet.


----------



## ZE (Jun 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Alive Madara should have at least EMS in 1 eye, so his 1 eye should have properties of both sharingan and Rinnegan @ his will. So no, you can't oneshot him.


But he doesn't. Because according to you, rinnegan and sharingan are two separate things unrelated to each other. Madara only has normal rinnegan.



> Itachi and Sasuke broke that thing with their own genjutsu, so I am pretty sure there are other ways of breaking sage sound genjutsu.


By themselves they looked pretty helpless. 



> And I particularly said Nagato because he is relatively a weak Rinnegan user, who doesn't have sharingan.
> Both Obito and Madara had sharingan because they are natural born Uchiha.


Obito had one, but Madara lost his when he gained tomoeless rinnegan. Bad luck for the guy.



> So yes, your beloved Nagato gets OHKO'D by Tsukiyomi.




Too easy. 
Keep fighting your losing battle, it's entertaining. It always was, since the times you argued the rinnegan was filler that wasn't going to be shown again after the Pain arc.



Deer Lord said:


> Nagato weilds Madara's eyes. So by your logic he should also have 1 eye with EMS.



Especially if we consider that a non-uchiha like Kakashi was able to use things like susanoo, kamui etc.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Well shit, was Tenseigan something introduced in Part 2?



"The Last" Naruto movie. It is considered to be chapter 699.5. 

Tenseigan = combining a pure Byakugan (such as from a Hyuuga set of eyes) with an Otsutsuki bodies. 
Though it is possible the Ootsutsuki could awaken it themselves since at birth they sealed their own Byakugan away.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> That doesn't say anything about EMS evolving into Rinnegan.
> 
> 
> So yes, your beloved Nagato gets OHKO'D by Tsukiyomi.



Except the only time the Rinnegan was awakened, outside Hagoromo, was from EMS users. 

Anyone with the Rinnegan pretty much owns Tsukuyomi. Hebi Sasuke owned it. Even a non Uchiha like Bee owned it 

Basically you still have to deal with the fact that Itachi is still on Jiraiya level, below Hebi Sasuke level without Susanoo.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 18, 2015)

ZE said:


> But he doesn't. Because according to you, rinnegan and sharingan are two separate things unrelated to each other. Madara only has normal rinnegan.


Edo Madara was able to switch between EMS and Rinnegan. 

JJ Madara didn't, but we don't know if he didn't do it, or simply couldn't. 
But logically, after sacrificing one his eye to Izanami, one of his eye should have retained its sharingan. So Madara should have 1 EMS eye, that we know of.



> By themselves they looked pretty helpless.



They never looked helpless or worried.
But I think using visual genjutsu on yourself is not possible, so they used it on each other. But the point is, their MS genjutsu is potent enough to instantly dispell that sound genjutsu.
Knowing that it was actually broken on panel, it is safe to assume other characters can break it as well.

There is no remark about Sound genjutsu being unbreakable either, so I don't see its relevance here.



> Obito had one, but Madara lost his when he gained tomoeless rinnegan. Bad luck for the guy.



Like I said, it is possible to switch between Rinnegan and EMS. 
Sasuke has tomoe rinnegan, that is why he doesn't need to, he can use Sharingan's abilities through his tomoe Rinnegan.




> Too easy.
> Keep fighting your losing battle, it's entertaining. It always was, since the times you argued the rinnegan was filler that wasn't going to be shown again after the Pain arc.



What sasuke refers to Rinnegan is the Tomoe rinnegan. Which is capable of using both dojutsu abilities. Madara cast Mugen Tsukiyomi through his 3rd eye, which is Sharinnegan.
Sasuke's Rinnegan has tomoes on it, and he can use sharingan jutsu through it.
You gotta pay attention to context.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> "The Last" Naruto movie. It is considered to be chapter 699.5.
> 
> Tenseigan = combining a pure Byakugan (such as from a Hyuuga set of eyes) with an Otsutsuki bodies.
> Though it is possible the Ootsutsuki could awaken it themselves since at birth they sealed their own Byakugan away.
> ...



Rinnegan is awakened by Dojutsu users(I guess those who inherit Indira's chakra), that is true.
But EMS doesn't transform into Rinnegan, as EMS and Rinnegan have completely different abilities, and Madara had to switch back to EMS to cast his genjutsu on A.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Rinnegan is awakened by Dojutsu users(I guess those who inherit Indira's chakra), that is true.
> But EMS doesn't transform into Rinnegan, as EMS and Rinnegan have completely different abilities, and Madara had to switch back to EMS to cast his genjutsu on A.



Explain, why is it only EMS users awakened the Rinnegan. Attempts from others all failed as per Black Zetsu. 

Sharingan and MS have different abilities, they're still part of the same line. Same with the Rinnegan. 

Madara didn't switch to the EMS because the Rinnegan can't use Genjutsu. Sasuke showed, albeit a enhanced Rinnegan, has insane levels of Genjutsu. Since base Rinnegan chakra>>>>>EMS chakra>>>>>>>>>>MS chakra, it stands to reason the Genjutsu from the Rinnegan would've probably taken out A. Madara was dicking around till he brought out Perfect Susanoo.


----------



## ZE (Jun 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Edo Madara was able to switch between EMS and Rinnegan.
> 
> JJ Madara didn't, but we don't know if he didn't do it, or simply couldn't.
> But logically, after sacrificing one his eye to Izanami, one of his eye should have retained its sharingan. So Madara should have 1 EMS eye, that we know of.


So he would have to switch to the sharingan to not be one-shotted by a genjutsu. I see, I see. Sasuke was dumb. He could've one-shotted Madara the whole time. Remember, the sharingan and the rinnegan are two different things.




> They never looked helpless or worried.
> But I think using visual genjutsu on yourself is not possible, so they used it on each other. But the point is, their MS genjutsu is potent enough to instantly dispell that sound genjutsu.
> Knowing that it was actually broken on panel, it is safe to assume other characters can break it as well.
> 
> There is no remark about Sound genjutsu being unbreakable either, so I don't see its relevance here.


You need a partner because on your own you're pretty much done for. Just like Naruto was helpless when Itachi used the finger genjutsu but Sakura dispelled it with a simple kai.



> Like I said, it is possible to switch between Rinnegan and EMS.
> Sasuke has tomoe rinnegan, that is why he doesn't need to, he can use Sharingan's abilities through his tomoe Rinnegan.



Thing is, Madara never switched it when he was fighting Sasuke. One simple genjutsu was enough it seems.




> What sasuke refers to Rinnegan is the Tomoe rinnegan.
> Which is capable of using both dojutsu abilities. Madara cast Mugen Tsukiyomi through his 3rd eye, which is Sharinnegan.
> Sasuke's Rinnegan has tomoes on it, and he can use sharingan jutsu through it.
> You gotta pay attention to context.


-Everyone is put into genjutsu and gains rinnegan eyes, not tomoe rinnegan eyes.
-It is called a rinnegan genjutsu.
-It can only be broken by another rinnegan.

This is all we know. And Sasuke has EMS, and he never mentioned it. Why would he need the EMS powers in his left rinnegan when the other eye was useless to fight the genjutsu? Only his left eye was useful because it had the rinnegan powers.

The context is that simple.

Sasuke's genjutsu eye:
Link removed

It's the right eye. 


So why the hell did Sasuke use his left eye to cast the bijuus under genjutsu here:
Link removed

If the EMS powers in his eyes were enough, he'd used his right eye. Another hint that the illusion he used was rinnegan exclusive, something he didn't have in his right eye.


----------



## Six (Jun 18, 2015)

ZE said:


> I guess tsukiyomi and koto also would one shot Madara since he has tomoeless rinnengan.
> 
> And since we're at it, frog song would one shot Madara, Hagoromo, Jyuubito etc. because sage jutsus>jyuubi jinchuuriki.



Lol I don't see why not


----------



## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> All I see is that red thing. A tattoo? What for? Why does Hagoromo decide to get himself that tattoo and Hamura doesn't?


Please AP, don't play this game. It clearly has "-" on each side of it indicating it's a tattoo. And why do any of the characters make stylistic decisions that other characters don't lol.

Even the Wikai calls it a Rinnegan MARKING not an actual Dojutsu:


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 18, 2015)

I had assumed that mark was actually a seal for what, I guess, could be his own Rinne Sharingan or whatever. Guess not.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Please AP, don't play this game. It clearly has "-" on each side of it indicating it's a tattoo. And why do any of the characters make stylistic decisions that other characters don't lol.
> 
> Even the Wikai calls it a Rinnegan MARKING not an actual Dojutsu:


Having "-" doesn't indicate anything. Using wiki that is written by people like you and me doesn't work either. Hagoromo has something on his forehead that looks like red Rinnegan. This something was important enough to be present on Hagoromo's chakra avatar when he was giving away power ups. Why did Kishimoto give him that? Hagoromo's face was revealed pretty close to Madara gaining third eye and Kaguya revelation. He already had all this stuff designed. Why he didn't give Hamura something similar? Hamura is the one more similar to Kaguya. Byakugan + Forehead shit would make more sense. There is just too many weird things and lack of info to simply write it off as a random tattoo imo.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2015)

ZE said:


> So he would have to switch to the sharingan to not be one-shotted by a genjutsu. I see, I see. Sasuke was dumb. He could've one-shotted Madara the whole time. Remember, the sharingan and the rinnegan are two different things.


He could switch to it if he was in need. Having the capability of doing so is enough.



> You need a partner because on your own you're pretty much done for. Just like Naruto was helpless when Itachi used the finger genjutsu but Sakura dispelled it with a simple kai.


So you'r saying that Itachi's finger genjutsu can also oneshot everyone ? 

I think Itachi opted for the fastest method that'd ensure they broke the genjutsu exactly @ the same time. I don't think that was the only way of breaking it, but rather it was the best option available @ the moment.



> Thing is, Madara never switched it when he was fighting Sasuke. One simple genjutsu was enough it seems.


Because he didn't need to. Did Sasuke attempt to genjutsu him ? 



> -Everyone is put into genjutsu and gains rinnegan eyes, not tomoe rinnegan eyes.
> -It is called a rinnegan genjutsu.
> -It can only be broken by another rinnegan.


Sasuke calls his Tomoe Rinnegan also a Rinnegan.



> This is all we know. And Sasuke has EMS, and he never mentioned it. Why would he need the EMS powers in his left rinnegan when the other eye was useless to fight the genjutsu? Only his left eye was useful because it had the rinnegan powers.
> 
> The context is that simple.



What does EMS have anything to do with this ?

That genjutsu is a product of Tomoe Rinnegan(combination of sharingan and Rinnegan). Sasuke was immune to it because he had Tomoe Rinnegan(combination of sharingan and Rinnegan).
I agree that it is very simple. I just don't get why you'r having trouble grasping something so simple.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Explain, why is it only EMS users awakened the Rinnegan. Attempts from others all failed as per Black Zetsu.
> 
> Sharingan and MS have different abilities, they're still part of the same line. Same with the Rinnegan.
> 
> Madara didn't switch to the EMS because the Rinnegan can't use Genjutsu. Sasuke showed, albeit a enhanced Rinnegan, has insane levels of Genjutsu. Since base Rinnegan chakra>>>>>EMS chakra>>>>>>>>>>MS chakra, it stands to reason the Genjutsu from the Rinnegan would've probably taken out A. Madara was dicking around till he brought out Perfect Susanoo.



It is simple. They have the genetic heritage to awaken dojutsu, being capable of awakening EMS requires a certain potency of chakra. Considering Rinnegan is a higher level of dojutsu, so you need to be at least capable of awakening MS/EMS to be able to awaken Rinnegan.

So again, EMS doesn't transform into Rinnegan, and rinnegan doesn't have the properties of sharingan.
They are seperate dojutsu.

It is pretty clear, Rinnegan and Sharingan came from Kaguya's Sharinnegan(check out that name). Its like that dojutsu split into two and formed Rinnegan and Sharingan.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 19, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Having "-" doesn't indicate anything. Using wiki that is written by people like you and me doesn't work either. Hagoromo has something on his forehead that looks like red Rinnegan. This something was important enough to be present on Hagoromo's chakra avatar when he was giving away power ups. Why did Kishimoto give him that? Hagoromo's face was revealed pretty close to Madara gaining third eye and Kaguya revelation. He already had all this stuff designed. Why he didn't give Hamura something similar? Hamura is the one more similar to Kaguya. Byakugan + Forehead shit would make more sense. There is just too many weird things and lack of info to simply write it off as a random tattoo imo.


Are you really going to sit here and tell me this is not a tattoo?



And it doesn't even have Sharingan Tome.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Are you really going to sit here and tell me this is not a tattoo?
> 
> 
> 
> And it doesn't even have Sharingan Tome.



In Alex's defense, that shit is very misleading


----------



## Turrin (Jun 19, 2015)

Madara, "Without baring both the Senjuu and Uchiha power the Rinnegan can't be awakened"
Madara, "and naturally you can't operate mazou properly"
Madara, "Senju cells have been attached to your right arm"
Madara, "Even if you don't activate the Rinnegan you should still be able to operate the Mazou"

-----

This tells us right here that Rinnegan contains both the Uchiha and Senju powers, and is a result of combining those powers together. So to say the Rinnegan doesn't have the Uchiha's Powers is nonsense and summoning mazou also requires both powers, meaning Nagato's Rinnegan despite him not being an Uchiha could draw on the Uchiha's powers. 

Like wise Kabuto flat out states that Sharingan is de-evolution of Rinnegan:

Kabuto, "As expected, in accordance with our hypothesis...."
Kabuto, "Sharingan arrives at it's previous point...."
Kabuto, "which was Rinnegan"

And you can say it's just a hypothesis, but he than goes on to say his hypothesis has been proven correct:

Kabuto, "and thus presently......my hypothesis is proven correct"

And Madara does not correct him on this and in-fact the manga only supports this, by showing time and time again that by implanting Senju-DNA into an Uchiha their eyes evolve into Rinnegan. In-fact Obito not obtaining the Rinnegan despite having Senju Cells implanted into him further supports the idea of it being steps in evolving Sharingan back to it's previous form, as he did not have EMS.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2015)

_Fighting while sensing_


----------



## Deer Lord (Jun 19, 2015)

^
That's a clone
which again, haven't been seen with the rinnegan at all.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> ^
> That's a clone
> which again, haven't been seen with the rinnegan at all.



_Fighting while sensing_
Wood clones are the same as original.


----------



## Deer Lord (Jun 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> _Fighting while sensing_
> Wood clones are the same as original.


If they were then why can madara no-diff stomp hasirama's clones?
also why are all of madara's clones shown with EMS and not rinnegan?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> If they were then why can madara no-diff stomp hasirama's clones?
> also why are all of madara's clones shown with EMS and not rinnegan?



Isn't this a wood clone  ? _Fighting while sensing_

Clones gets stomped with no dif because they are expendable and their strength is in proportion to the chakra given to them.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is simple. They have the genetic heritage to awaken dojutsu, being capable of awakening EMS requires a certain potency of chakra. Considering Rinnegan is a higher level of dojutsu, so you need to be at least capable of awakening MS/EMS to be able to awaken Rinnegan.



Going by Zetsu, the only Indra reincarnates that could awaken it are the ones with the EMS. EMS users also happened to be the only ones with PS... a jutsu possessed by Indra. 

All of it points to EMS being a prerequisite. 



> So again, EMS doesn't transform into Rinnegan, and rinnegan doesn't have the properties of sharingan.
> They are seperate dojutsu.



Except Kabuto, Madara and a lot of other evidence disagrees with you. The Sharingan is just a weakened Rinnegan. 



> It is pretty clear, Rinnegan and Sharingan came from Kaguya's Sharinnegan(check out that name). Its like that dojutsu split into two and formed Rinnegan and Sharingan.



There's no such thing as a Sharinnegan. There's a Rinnesharingan. 

No it isn't clear seeing as it appears that there was a _Rinnegan_ user before Kayuga. That implies the Rinnegan predated the Rinnesharingan. Going by the fact that MT is considered to be a Rinnegan Genjutsu and Rinnesharingan can only be obtained via the Rinnegan... the Rinnesharingan is just an extension to the Rinnegan. 
This is probably the reason why the Rinnegan, not Rinnesharingan, can also trace Kayuga's chakra and go into her dimension. 

The Doujutsu didn't split, you're just grasping straws. Kabuto and others confirmed the Sharingan is just a low leveled Rinnegan. The Rinnegan can be extended to form the Rinnesharingan and Sasuke established that the Rinnegan has higher levels signified by a set of tomoe on the rings of the Rinnegan. 

It seems there are only *two* legendary Doujutsu: the Rinnegan and Byakugan. 
The Rinnegan can be extended to get the Rinnesharingan and powered up, signified by tomoe. The Byakugan can be extended to obtain the Tenseigan. 

The Sharingan literally formed when the Rinnegan was split: the Sharingan and all its forms are just a Rinnegan without supreme body power. 

Put it simply, the Sharingan and its forms are just a poor man's Rinnegan. Madara and Sasuke upgraded the Sharingan to its proper form, the Rinnegan, only after taking the Sharingan to heights that have shown to guarantee the Rinnegan.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> _before_


_before_

MADARA USING A LOWER STAGE OF A DOJUTSU WHAAAAAA!

UCHIHA LIKE TOUTES NEVER DO THAT!!!!


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 20, 2015)

More stuff to consider

Rikudo depicted with Sharinnegan





And the funny thing - we never properly saw how does _Jubi Jin_ Hagoromo look like. We saw young Hagoromo, Kaguya-fight Hagoromo. And Hagoromo _after_ he created 9 Bijus and sealed Gedo Mazo in the moon. Hagospirit is Hagoromo who died without any biju inside. Maybe he had them tomoes while Jubi was inside him. Because Madara having Sharinnegan and Hagoromo not having it doesn't make sense - Madara is farther from Kaguya than her sons. And Hagoromo shouldn't be capable of giving Sasuke dojutsu superior to the one he had himself. Another question - when did Hagoromo father Asura and Indra? If he had Jubi inside at that time - maybe they were influenced by it(like Kyubi giving whiskers to Naruto and later to his kids). And Jubi showed both tomoes and Mokuton-esque abilities.

Rinnegan and Sharingan being two parts of Sharinnegan looks more plausible to me than simple dojutsu ladder. This whole dojutsu business is a fucking mess but Kishimoto still continues to throw stuff that points towards two dojutsu having completely different abilities without a power hierarchy. 

How can Sharingan be a weaker Rinnegan if Hagoromo himself specifically states that his mother had Sharingan-powers. Why make a distinction? Why not say that she had complete mastery over Rinnegan? Or strongest Rinnegan. Why dojutsu that supposedly appeared two generations later even had a name at Kaguya's time? My main beef is with that Hagoromo's statement. It doesn't make sense if Sharingan is simply a weaker Rinnegan. He wouldn't say what he said if that was the case.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> already in position
> 
> MADARA USING A LOWER STAGE OF A DOJUTSU WHAAAAAA!
> 
> UCHIHA LIKE TOUTES NEVER DO THAT!!!!



Thats the beginning of the fight. Before he even displayed Rinnegan. 
So it is not strange that he started out with the most basic form of his dojutsu before the fight escalated.
Though it is strange that he used EMS after the point where he was running around with Rinnegan for a while.

So, whats your point ? 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Going by Zetsu, the only Indra reincarnates that could awaken it are the ones with the EMS. EMS users also happened to be the only ones with PS... a jutsu possessed by Indra.
> 
> All of it points to EMS being a prerequisite.
> 
> ...



Show me a rinnegan using a sharingan jutsu and I'll concede.


----------



## Ersa (Jun 20, 2015)

Watching AP debate with Turrin is like watching Germany flog Brazil once again.


----------

