# Asuma vs CS2 Kimimaro



## Luftwaffles (Mar 31, 2013)

Location: Kimi vs Gaara
Distance: 30 meters
Knowledge: None
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: None

Assume Kimi doesn't die from a boner attack


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## Stermor (Mar 31, 2013)

asuma is much faster and easily cuts him in half..


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## Kind of a big deal (Mar 31, 2013)

Also with no knowlege and in-character, Kimimaro will assume he can block Asuma's attacks with his bone armor.


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## raizen28 (Mar 31, 2013)

Asuma has Wind.
Asuma has Blades.
Asuma Has Wind Blades.
Blades>Bone
Blades+Wind>Bone
Asuma is also a Jonin who reacted to a S-Rank Level Shinobi[Hidan]
While Kimimaro is only a Genin

Asuma databook Taijutsu is "Very good". while Kimimaro's Taijutsu is "Superb Good", He is only a 'Genin'. Asuma Is a "Jonin''. Asuma's Taijutsu is 2 levels[by rank] superior to Kimimaro.

thats just like saying Lee can beat Asuma because of his Taijutsu, we all know Asuma has beaten at least 15 "Jonin" Sound ninja, so that Lee argument is incorrect.

Asuma is also the Son of the 3rd Hokage


Asuma>Kimimaro
automatically
plus Asuma is a Konoha Jonin which are un arguably the best.
Not those fodder Mist Jonin Kimimaro may have beaten appearingly as we never seen those shinobi actually die with their very own panel and mourning to each of them.
Kimimaro is a genin so it was impossible


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## bleakwinter (Mar 31, 2013)

*Kimimaro wins*

Kimimaro is an overall more impressive fighter in the speed and Taijutsu department. His Taijutsu style exhibits far more flexibility (1) than Asuma's and Kimimaro's movement speed feats are more substantial than Asuma's as well. Kimimaro's unorthodox taijutsu is also quite unpredictable, as it was able to injure even Drunken Lee (2).I do not forsee Asuma continually being able to avoid Kimimaro's bone protrusions which can sprout anywhere from his body, especially given the fact that he was scratched by a a simple scythe attack. Asuma's Ninjutsu is only marginally impressive, as his Katon only inflicted light subcutaneous burns (Placing this into perspective, Kimimaro's Kekkei Genkai involves his own bowns regularly jabbing through his skin, so it isn't fathomable that such minor damage would impede him). Similarly, even Ino was swift enough to sprint up to Choji and move him out of Asuma's Fuuton path. Lastly, Asuma has no logical counter to Sawarabi no Mai due to the shear area it can cover and certainly cannot mow them all down as Itachi did given the size of his extended trench knives in comparison to the Susanoo blade.


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## Akitō (Mar 31, 2013)

Kimimaro is at a low jōnin's level, while Asuma's at the elite jōnin level. Stermor, King of a big deal, and raizen28 have it right: Asuma is just a higher caliber shinobi, so he shouldn't have much trouble here. And because Asuma is known for his deadly offense, I'm willing to bet that his wind blades would be able to bypass Kimimaro's defense. 

Kimimaro was good for a 'rookie-level' character, but that's it. His best feat is beating SRA Garra, but we saw how Garra fared against an elite jōnin just a few months prior to that arc: he was casually stopped by Gai when he tried attacking Lee. Even though Kimimaro was obviously stronger than Garra and SRA Garra was obviously stronger than CE Garra, neither of those differences were nearly as dramatic as the difference between Garra and Gai (i.e. the difference between an elite jōnin and a low jōnin).


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## bleakwinter (Mar 31, 2013)

Akitō said:


> Kimimaro is at a low jōnin's level, while Asuma's at the elite jōnin level. Stermor, King of a big deal, and raizen28 have it right: Asuma is just a higher caliber shinobi, so he shouldn't have much trouble here. And because Asuma is known for his deadly offense, I'm willing to bet that his wind blades would be able to bypass Kimimaro's defense.


Kimimaro is low Jonin, yet Orochimaru felt that defeating Hiruzen would've been easy had he not been ill? Kimimaro is low Jonin, yet survived against Naruto's Kurama Chakra clone and the remaining platoon without ever being sealed? Rank is being overemphasized as justification for Kimimaro's defeat.The problem is that Asuma has no counters to Sawarabi no Mai and Kimimaro has much better Taijutsu feats than Asuma. 



> Kimimaro was good for a 'rookie-level' character, but that's it. His best feat is beating SRA Garra, but we saw how Garra fared against an elite jōnin just a few months prior to that arc: he was casually stopped by Gai when he tried attacking Lee. Even though Kimimaro was obviously stronger than Garra and SRA Garra was obviously stronger than CE Garra, neither of those differences were nearly as dramatic as the difference between Garra and Gai (i.e. the difference between an elite jōnin and a low jōnin).



You've also disregarded the fact that Kimimaro was ill in all of those cases, whereas he will not succumb to his illness in this scenario against Asuma. Overall, there's an excess of A>B>C logic in many of these arguments, and they're all fixated on implcating Kimimaro's weakness solely at that (Unless everyone has suddenly forgotten that Asuma essentially lost to three Chuunin during the war arc).


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## Cord (Mar 31, 2013)

They are at the same ballpark when it comes to speed and Taijutsu, statistically and feat wise. Thus I'd picture that they would match each other pretty evenly in a CQC exchange. This however, ultimately boils down to whose ninjutsu is more potent than the other and if worse comes to worst, stamina and resiliency might even be the deciding factor on who will ultimately come out as the victor. For Kimimaro to be taken down, Asuma's best bet is to bypass his opponent's _Shikotsumyaku_ with _Hien_ or like what the guys above me say: _"cut him in half"_. 

Now I am not sure how effective that will be, since Kimimaro was able to parry a Samurai's chakra enhanced blade without his cursed seal activated in the war arc. With Juin to boost that ability, I'm not convinced that Asuma's  Fūton enhanced blades, whose greatest feat is piercing through trees and a rock (implied), will go past Kimimaro's defense and defeat it. On the other hand, Asuma may not be able to do anything should Kimimaro ever decide to use _Sawarabi no Mai_ once he feels pressured or if he thinks that resorting to it would mean victory. 

If we have to go by hype or portrayal, then the more reason to believe that Kimimaro isn't that far from Asuma's caliber. Not only was he  to, as the most powerful person under Orochimaru's command back then (even more skilled than Kabuto, who was easily at elite Jōnin level), but his Kekkei Genkai has also been constantly praised for being almost insurmountable- which Asuma needs to circumvent in order to get a grasp on him.

If Kimimaro was indeed, truly meant to be portrayed only at the 'Rookie' or 'Genin' level, then it leaves me wondering why the author would have the need to gimp him first and have his character defeated in a fashion where he has to succumb to his illness and die because of it, rather than having any genin- Gaara and Lee specifically- overcome him through their _own_ sheer skill and power.


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## katanalauncher (Mar 31, 2013)

I think this is a stomp, Base Kimimaro or CS1 is enough to beat Asuma.
I doubt Asuma's fuuton can do anything against Kimimaro's bones.


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## tanman (Mar 31, 2013)

They'll both take serious damage. Either sickness ends it or Sawarabi no Mai ends it.


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## Punished Pathos (Mar 31, 2013)

Kimimaro stomps. 
I mean come on, fucking wind and blades ain't cutting through Kimimaro.
Not even Gaara's sand could crush Kimimaro.
Kimimaro is low Jounin level?
Fuck, he is more like Kage Level.
He was fucking 15 and Orochimaru said that Hiruzen would have been easier to defeat if Kimimaro was there.
Kabuto had even said that the Leaf had no one that they could send out to stop Kimimaro.


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 31, 2013)

Gaara's sand and Asuma's _Hien_ deal different types of damage. It's generally thought that a piercing attack (such as _Raikiri_, or the jutsu in question) would do better against Kimmimaro's bones than a crushing or blunt force attack would. At least, this was the opinion before Edo Tensei Kimmimaro's performance in the War arc.


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## Punished Pathos (Mar 31, 2013)

Didn't Edo Kimimaro defeat a KCM Clone 

Kimimaro has better feats than Asuma.


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## Stermor (Mar 31, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Didn't Edo Kimimaro defeat a KCM Clone
> 
> Kimimaro has better feats than Asuma.



he did not.. the feat he has if maybe surviving a frs(we don't know how).. or if he actually did.. 

anyway kimimaro was slower then lee.. who at the time was slower then he was at the chuunin exam.. kimimaro is really really slow even for a jounin(likely because of his diseace). 

anyway asuma is way faster.. and hien is going to cut kimimaro up.. how easyly doesn't really matter since asume has a pretty decent in gap in speed wise.. and unlikely lee asuma is skilled enough that kimi can't compensate with that either..


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## joshhookway (Mar 31, 2013)

Asuma is low jonin level who couldn't even beat a low jonin Hidan.

Kimmimaro at curse seal two bone forest crush Asuma.


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## Kind of a big deal (Mar 31, 2013)

It doesn't matter who is faster or more skilled. We can all agree that Asuma is at least faster than genin or fodder opponents. (Personally I think he's in the Kakashi and base Gai range. Like most Akatsuki are.) So nobody is blitzing anyone. They are in-character and have no knowledge. Kimimaro will simply assume that he can block Asuma, because why would he think otherwise? In the first exchange, Kimimaro will be cut down.

Also to the above, Asuma isn't low jonin level. Neither is Hidan. Your arbitrary power rankings are made up. Just by sheer numbers we can understand this is not true. Many fodder have jonin rank. Asuma is considered an elite amongst the jonin. Hidan is picked out of many to be in Akatsuki. It's imposible for them to be low jonin, because they are portrayed as clearly stronger than fodder. Both of them have beaten up large numbers of fodder casually. No low jonin could do that. Neji is low jonin, and he was having trouble with Zetsu clones, the very definition of fodder.

Most people, myself included consider Asuma the template for elite jonin level just like Kakashi without his sharingan or Base Gai, and Hidan the minimum requirement to be low Kage level.


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## Akitō (Mar 31, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Asuma is low jonin level who couldn't even beat a low jonin Hidan.
> 
> Kimmimaro at curse seal two bone forest crush Asuma.



How is Asuma a low jōnin when he easily beat a low jōnin _squad_ by himself?


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## Thunder (Mar 31, 2013)

Akitō and the others are correct: Asuma is most certainly elite jōnin level. Examine his portrayal and feats closely, and there should be no question about it. That said, I do believe Asuma would prevail against Kimimaro in this match-up. I'd put my money on _Hien_ bypassing Kimimaro's bone armor any day, as fūton is the strongest offensive element of the five.

I feel that Asuma is underestimated quite often in the Battledome.


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## Bonly (Apr 1, 2013)

I'd favor Kimi here more times then not. In base as an edo, Kimi was able have his bone clash with a samurai's chakra enhanced sword and was able to have his bone go right through it and said bone didn't even get cut and broken off. The power boost from being in CS2 should be able to deal with Asuma's wind blades which have only pierced a tree and implied to go further into a rock. With Kimi's bones being as hard as steel along with the power boost of CS2 along with his ability of regen(which will also get a boost due to the CS) Kimi and should be able to take a few hits from Asuma and along with his Taijutsu skills should do well against Asuma for a short while. Once Sawarabi no Mai will surely end this as well. Kimi was highly portrayed pretty high and with his portrayal as well as his feats, I view Kimi as being either elite Jounin level or low kage level, while Asuma is just an average named Jounin whose hype wasn't on Kimi's level and isn't noted to be much stronger either.


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## Kind of a big deal (Apr 1, 2013)

Asuma cut through steel casually when Hidan threw a sword at him.

Nobody who is low kage should have trouble with a weakened drunken genin. Kimimaro is about as strong as a special jounin, at best.


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## Punished Pathos (Apr 1, 2013)

Kimimaro wasn't blitzed by Lee due to sheer speed.
Its manga canon that Lee was able to get a little leverage on Kimimaro because the former was drunk which made his moves unpredictable/hard to track. 

Asuma is overrated. There is nothing in his moveset that can harm Kimimaro.
Kimimaro only loses speed in CS2. Just as previous posts state, Kimimaro is no stranger to facing chakra powered weapons.
Kimimaro was obviously an omen that Kakashi spoke off during part 1.

"There are Ninja younger than me who are stronger than me"


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## Baroxio (Apr 1, 2013)

lol at the rank arguments.

A.) Gaara at the time of his introduction in the Chunin exams, was already jounin level (defeating Sand Jounin and performing feats specifically stated to be beyond all other current Chunin when he passed the Forest of Death without a scratch or even a smudge of dirt in under 2 hours). This was before he showed the ability to grind sand to attack from below to spam sand with Ryusa Bakaru and Sabaku Taiso. At the point of his fight with Kimimaro, he was low Kage Level at the least (especially if you compare his fight to the Sandaime fight).

B.) Kimimaro beat Gaara *after *beating Druken Rock Lee, who was implied to have been strong enough to knock Base Gai the fuck out.

C.) Kimimaro beat Rock Lee *after *defeating 1000 KN0 clones, all on his motherfucing deathbed were he moves through willpower alone.

D.) For further rank fucking, Kimimaro was stated to be the most powerful under Orochimaru's command, more powerful than a Kabuto who was stated to be Kakashi's equal.

So if you are going to use the "rank" or "hype" argument, at least get your facts straight.

Now on to feats. Edo Kimimaro tanked or dodged FRS. That alone puts him beyond anything Asuma can do. Considering the fact that Asuma has no knowledge of or even any foreseeable counter to Sawarbi no Mai, I find it really difficult to see how Kimimaro loses this battle.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Apr 1, 2013)

kimimaro seems more impressive, holding off bloodlusted kn0 naruto clones, and fending off gaara and rock lee all in one big continuous fight.


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## Punished Pathos (Apr 1, 2013)

Kimimaro is basically another Itachi 

Feats and good hype.
And he was sick, holding together his body through sheer willpower.
He was fucking dying, and he had more stamina than Gaara, a Jinchuriki.
Kimimaro may be classified as a Jounin level, but he definitely fights above that level.



Naruto would have been beheaded if not for Lee.
Lee only caught up due to drinking that elixir but Kimimaro wounded him to the point where Lee was unable to fight.
8 gates wouldn't do shit against Kimi, he would brush it off with CS2 and Bracken dance would cripple Lee.
Gaara just uses up all of his chakra to defend against Kimimaro's CS2 attacks and to trap Kimimaro and crush him. Only for Kimimaro to tank everything and counter back with an ace jutsu.
Gaara used the last of his chakra to save himself from the Bracken dance. Kimimaro was inches away from leaving a gaping hole in Gaara's face.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 1, 2013)

Asuma cuts him in half after bit of a struggle. That's all. Fodder-flow of Samurai was able to partially cut through Kimi's bones. Hien is >>> than that.

Asuma is just as fast, comparable in Taijutsu skills and several times more deadly in CQC due to Hien. Add LOS-blocking Katon and Futon that outranges+outperforms any ranged move in Kimi's arsenal. Sawarabi no Mai is the only thing that might give Kimi the win. 



Baroxio said:


> lol at the rank arguments.
> 
> A.) Gaara at the time of his introduction in the Chunin exams, was already jounin level (defeating Sand Jounin and performing feats specifically stated to be beyond all other current Chunin when he passed the Forest of Death without a scratch or even a smudge of dirt in under 2 hours). This was before he showed the ability to grind sand to attack from below to spam sand with Ryusa Bakaru and Sabaku Taiso. At the point of his fight with Kimimaro, he was low Kage Level at the least (especially if you compare his fight to the Sandaime fight).


 SRA Gaara would be dead in 2 seconds against P1 Kakashi or Gai. That's not "low-Kage".



Baroxio said:


> B.) Kimimaro beat Gaara *after *beating Druken Rock Lee, who was implied to have been strong enough to knock Base Gai the fuck out.


 Kimimaro beat out-of-surgery Lee who was weakened. Healthy Drunk Lee was able to smack Gai who wasn't expecting a fight. You are kidding yourself if you think that Drunk P1 Lee would pose a real challenge to serious Gai in a proper fight.



Baroxio said:


> C.) Kimimaro beat Rock Lee *after *defeating 1000 KN0 clones, all on his motherfucing deathbed were he moves through willpower alone.


 Weakened Lee, I repeat. And Naruto was still barely scrapping Jonin-lvl(aside from Bunta) while going all out. Which he didn't against Kimimaro. 



Baroxio said:


> D.) For further rank fucking, Kimimaro was stated to be the most powerful under Orochimaru's command, more powerful than a Kabuto who was stated to be Kakashi's equal.


 There is Kabuto messing with Kimimaro by stating that Sasuke might be stronger than him  Greatest Servant holds many meanings. Look at Kabuto's face and Orochimaru's previous comment. Kabuto is messing with Oro like he did after Sandaime-fight.



Baroxio said:


> So if you are going to use the "rank" or "hype" argument, at least get your facts straight.


 Look who is talking 



Baroxio said:


> Now on to feats. Edo Kimimaro tanked or dodged FRS. That alone puts him beyond anything Asuma can do. Considering the fact that Asuma has no knowledge of or even any foreseeable counter to Sawarbi no Mai, I find it really difficult to see how Kimimaro loses this battle.


 Kimimaro wasn't alone. He was with Chiyo. And we have no idea what happened in that fight. 

Chances are - Kimimaro would get futon'd before activating his final dance.


Pathos Grim said:


> Kimimaro was obviously an omen that Kakashi spoke off during part 1.
> 
> "There are Ninja younger than me who are stronger than me"


Younger-than-Naruto Kimimaro is going to get stomped by P1 Kakashi. 
Kid Itachi and younger Gaara with potential Full Shukaku form are the only ones with feats applicable to that statement.


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## bleakwinter (Apr 1, 2013)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Asuma cut through steel casually when Hidan threw a sword at him.



...Yet Asuma still lost to Hidan, even with Shikamaru's help. Even if Asuma's blade is able to cut through Kimimaro's bones, that doesn't automatically guarantee him victory. Kimimaro is quite agile, has superior Taijutsu feats, and has Sawarabi no Mai (The Asuma proponents in this thread have still not shown how Asuma would survive this attack).



> Nobody who is low kage should have trouble with a weakened drunken genin. Kimimaro is about as strong as a special jounin, at best.



Gai had trouble with drunken Lee. (1)


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## Stermor (Apr 1, 2013)

lee was faster then kimimaro.. who just came out of the hospital.. 

lee at the time who was the same speed as sasuke.. and if we remember kakashi casually blitzed both naruto and sasuke.. asuma has no problem doing the same thing.. 

and because certain people don't believe that.. we have gaara who had no problem reacting to kimimaro at any time.. to make it even worse kimimaro was never even fast enough to outpase the sand shield.. 

now remember how gai casually backhanded gaara sand faster then gaara could react.. 

asuma could do the same thing.. i'm well aware then asuma is not as fast as kakashi or gai but he is pretty close.. as seen against hidan.. 

anyway kimimaro by feats just doesn't have any speed feats anywhere close to asuma..


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## Baroxio (Apr 1, 2013)

Why are people constantly saying that Rock Lee just came out of the hospital when Kimimaro is on his deathbed and moving on willpower alone?


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## Alex Payne (Apr 1, 2013)

Because we got a clear comparison between healthy Lee and weakened Lee via Gaara. While the difference between Healthy-Kimi and Unhealthy-Kimi is unknown. Kishi had a chance to showcase the difference after Edo Tensei but alas. For BD purposes healthy Kimi is the one who wouldn't drop dead after a prolonged fight. Nothing more.


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## Stermor (Apr 1, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Why are people constantly saying that Rock Lee just came out of the hospital when Kimimaro is on his deathbed and moving on willpower alone?



we don't know how much kimi can do when not sick.. he has statements maybe.. but none of them can be considered clear in any way shape or form.. 

we have shown a bit of him during the edo war.. but again we don't knwo if he survived the frs.. or he was saved.. or he dogded or frs was just aimed for something else.. again it is not clear.. so we can't grant him anything.. 

in the end kimi has to do with the feats he has while fighting lee/gaara.. which really suck speed wise..

while most people know kimi without a diseace is probebly a solid elite jounin.. but we can't be sure therefor that kimi doesn't excist here..


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## Meruem (Apr 1, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Asuma is low jonin level who couldn't even beat a low jonin Hidan.
> 
> Kimmimaro at curse seal two bone forest crush Asuma.



I don't think you understand what low jonin level means.  Shizune is a Jonin.  Hidan>>>Shizune.  Shizune is low jonin, Hidan is atleast mid jonin, probably high jonin.  Also, Asuma didn't have knowledge.  Hidan is very powerful with no knowledge.  Lets not forget that Kimimaro would've lost to Hidan as well.  In fact, Hidan would beat Kimimaro more easily than he beat Asuma.


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## Olympian (Apr 1, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> *Kimimaro wins*
> 
> Kimimaro is an overall more impressive fighter in the speed and Taijutsu department. His Taijutsu style exhibits far more flexibility (1) than Asuma's and Kimimaro's movement speed feats are more substantial than Asuma's as well. Kimimaro's unorthodox taijutsu is also quite unpredictable, as it was able to injure even Drunken Lee (2).I do not forsee Asuma continually being able to avoid Kimimaro's bone protrusions which can sprout anywhere from his body, especially given the fact that he was scratched by a a simple scythe attack. Asuma's Ninjutsu is only marginally impressive, as his Katon only inflicted light subcutaneous burns (Placing this into perspective, Kimimaro's Kekkei Genkai involves his own bowns regularly jabbing through his skin, so it isn't fathomable that such minor damage would impede him).* Similarly, even Ino was swift enough to sprint up to Choji and move him out of Asuma's Fuuton path*. Lastly, Asuma has no logical counter to Sawarabi no Mai due to the shear area it can cover and certainly cannot mow them all down as Itachi did given the size of his extended trench knives in comparison to the Susanoo blade.



I think it was made quite clear in the chapter that if not for a prior warning and Shikamaru trying to capture Asuma in the _meantime_, she would have failed to do what she did. 

And whatever she did was just _"barely"_ according to her own dialogue, anyway. 



joshhookway said:


> Asuma is low jonin level who couldn't even beat a low jonin Hidan.
> 
> Kimmimaro at curse seal two bone forest crush Asuma.



First line is hilarious.



bleakwinter said:


> ...*Yet Asuma still lost to Hidan*, even with Shikamaru's help. Even if Asuma's blade is able to cut through Kimimaro's bones, that doesn't automatically guarantee him victory. Kimimaro is quite agile, has superior Taijutsu feats, and has Sawarabi no Mai (The Asuma proponents in this thread have still not shown how Asuma would survive this attack).



Due to circumstances that have little to do with his offensive being better than Bones. Including a whole beam of Futton that increases with range out of his hands.



bleakwinter said:


> .Gai had trouble with drunken Lee. (1)


I believe in context it`s explained in the page the reason for that degree of trouble, with him never expecting Lee to turn into something "awful" and with both being in a restaurant celebrating.



Pathos Grim said:


> Kimimaro wasn't blitzed by Lee due to sheer speed.
> Its manga canon that Lee was able to get a little leverage on Kimimaro because the former was drunk which made his moves unpredictable/hard to track.
> 
> Asuma is overrated. *There is nothing in his moveset that can harm Kimimaro*.
> ...



Nothing in this thread is gonna beat that.


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## Innerhype (Apr 1, 2013)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Asuma cut through steel casually when Hidan threw a sword at him.
> 
> *Nobody who is low kage should have trouble with a weakened drunken genin.* Kimimaro is about as strong as a special jounin, at best.




You're talking about Rock Lee?

That depends...


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## Jad (Apr 1, 2013)

I definitely believe Kimimaro is low-level Kage material, I don't even need to use his 5 in Taijutsu within the Databook to prove that his better than Asuma. Just view his fights again.

Asuma's Wind and Ash attacks aren't going to do anything against a guy who can regenerate his skin. So Asuma is wasting his Chakara in that instance. It's ultimately going to come straight down to Taijutsu, and Kimimaro just holds the advantage. That fact that if Asuma does get some nice deep slices in there, non-fatal of course, it won't matter because Kimimaro can regenerate his bones considering he creates them on the fly, and skin. Meaning in terms of trading blows, Kimimaro can come out on top while Asuma slowly gets damaged as the fight prologues. In terms of feats, sick Kimimaro has shown more stamina than Asuma which is again another advantage - databook also exemplifies this _3.5 to 4.5_. In terms of their close quarters clash, well I don't see Asuma moving continuously at _after images_ [] speed in terms of reflexes to avoid the relentless assault of _Dance of the Camelia_. His also got his trump card _Sawarabi no Mai_, where he can at that point control the battlefield and appear from any bone to deliver a final surprise blow, especially since there isn't really a place where Asuma can land besides the spiked forest.

Kimimaro is simply going to give Asuma more trouble than vice a versa.

tl;tr: Kimimaro's pro-points:

 His got regenerative bones
 Regenerative Skin
 More Stamina
 On paper and in the databook, he has a faster more relentless style of fighting than Asuma
 Has an unorthodox style of fighting, able to sprout bones from his body unexpectedly
 Has more attack options than Asuma in the form of _Sawarabi no Mai _ and different schools of fighting

Although, in a no knowledge fight, if Asuma throws one of those _1-meter long Chakara Blade_ haymakers at Kimimaro, there is a good chance he will win. But I find Kimimaro winning more times than not still. Doesn't seem like something Asuma would pull out unless he has full knowledge on his opponent or his in a desperate situation (correct or challenge me on that if you want). But seriously, if Asuma decides to switch it up, and in mid-swing pulls out the _1-meter long Chakara Blade_, yeah that's a problem if you are the opponent.


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## Stermor (Apr 3, 2013)

Jad said:


> I definitely believe Kimimaro is low-level Kage material, I don't even need to use his 5 in Taijutsu within the Databook to prove that his better than Asuma. Just view his fights again.
> 
> Asuma's Wind and Ash attacks aren't going to do anything against a guy who can regenerate his skin. So Asuma is wasting his Chakara in that instance. It's ultimately going to come straight down to Taijutsu, and Kimimaro just holds the advantage. That fact that if Asuma does get some nice deep slices in there, non-fatal of course, it won't matter because Kimimaro can regenerate his bones considering he creates them on the fly, and skin. Meaning in terms of trading blows, Kimimaro can come out on top while Asuma slowly gets damaged as the fight prologues. In terms of feats, sick Kimimaro has shown more stamina than Asuma which is again another advantage - databook also exemplifies this _3.5 to 4.5_. In terms of their close quarters clash, well I don't see Asuma moving continuously at _after images_ [] speed in terms of reflexes to avoid the relentless assault of _Dance of the Camelia_. His also got his trump card _Sawarabi no Mai_, where he can at that point control the battlefield and appear from any bone to deliver a final surprise blow, especially since there isn't really a place where Asuma can land besides the spiked forest.
> 
> ...



asuma had no problem fighting somebody with a 5 in taijutsu (hidan) and who is way way faster then kimimaro.. 

and i can't state this enough kimimaro by feats is extremly slow!!!!!!!! a pre skip weakened lee was faster.. this means Sasuke is faster aswell.. remember how extrmely easy kakashi blitzed them? 

remember the gaara's couldn't even detect gai moving.. while gaara never even had a issue with kimimaro's speed..

as far as asuma is concerned he kimimaro is just like those chuunin shikemaru caught.. pretty much standing still..


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## Innerhype (Apr 3, 2013)

Hidan doesn't have a 5 in taijutsu and Kimimaro s faster than him.

Any version of Rock Lee is faster then Hidan as well so there really isn't a comparison to be made.


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## Stermor (Apr 3, 2013)

Innerhype said:


> Hidan doesn't have a 5 in taijutsu and Kimimaro s faster than him.
> 
> Any version of Rock Lee is faster then Hidan as well so there really isn't a comparison to be made.



hahahahaha


----------



## Seiji (Apr 3, 2013)

Kimi was already dyin when he fought Naruto, Lee 'n Gaara 'n still dominated them. His feats 'n stats alone are comparable to most of the Jonins in part 1. He was also said to be Oro's most powerful servant so he's clearly above genin or chunin level. Sawarabi no Mai GG ends this.


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## ueharakk (Apr 3, 2013)

Kimimaro a low jounin?  Kimimaro is arguably low kage level. 

Drunk lee knocked base Gai out and it required that to just land a single blow on base kimimaro while he was moving through sheer willpower.

Kimimaro was the only one of orochimaru's servants who was able to stop juugo's rampages without taking damage, and was compared to Hebi Sasuke's level.  That puts him at the very least above beginning of part 2 Kabuto's level who was non-MS Kakashi's equal at that time.

I doubt Asuma's wind blades could even pierce kimimaro's C2 bones as they're already resistant to chakra flow samurai swords while he's in base. 

Kimimaro would win.


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## Olympian (Apr 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I doubt Asuma's wind blades could even pierce kimimaro's C2 bones as they're already resistant to chakra flow samurai swords while he's in base



How resistant, really? And that`s against no names. 

Hien was shown to be sharper than Raiton demostrated by characters with more panel time (against Kisame, for instance) than the foremonted Samurai. 

At the very least it`s doing cutting damage within some range.


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## ueharakk (Apr 3, 2013)

Olympian said:


> How resistant, really? And that`s against no names.


resistant enough that they couldn't complete a sword swing through a bone that was about as thick as their sword.  
I don't think being no-names means much when talking about just chakra flow.



Olympian said:


> Hien was shown to be sharper than Raiton demostrated by characters with more panel time (against Kisame, for instance) than the foremonted Samurai.


it might be sharper than the samurai's chakra flow since it hasn't been specifically stated to be raiton chakra, however raiton flow has been stated to be sharper than fuuton.



Olympian said:


> At the very least it`s doing cutting damage within some range.


I phrased my original stance kind of incorrectly.  What I meant by "not pierce" was really "not be able to cut through in a swing".  If kimi is in CS2, at best his hien would be a repeat of samurai swords vs base kimimaro's bones.


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## Stermor (Apr 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Kimimaro a low jounin?  Kimimaro is arguably low kage level.
> 
> Drunk lee knocked base Gai out and it required that to just land a single blow on base kimimaro while he was moving through sheer willpower.
> 
> ...



Again NO KAGE IS SLOWER THEN WEAKENED PRE SKIP LEE!!!!!!

if kimimaro was ever kage lvl.. he was not while fighting.. his only kage lvl feats are his durability.. his speed sucks ass, his attack while powerful coulndn't even come close to repeating a casual gai's backhand.. 

drunk lee not getting instantly raped by gai has more to do with cis/pis then anything usefull.. gai has the speed to move faster then lee can even react regardless of position.. 

kimi stopping juugo's rampages are overrated.. it only means he can survive juugo.. and it was something hebi sasuke did without effort.. 

also pretty sure hien is superior to samurai's swords.. 

anyway kimi by feats is just to slow to compete with elite jounin who can hurt him..


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## ueharakk (Apr 3, 2013)

Stermor said:


> Again NO KAGE IS SLOWER THEN WEAKENED PRE SKIP LEE!!!!!!


Kimimaro gets to be slower than pre-skip lee and still be kage-level since by right Kimimaro was so deathly ill that he shouldn't have been capable of moving at all and was moving his body through sheer willpower.



Stermor said:


> if kimimaro was ever kage lvl.. he was not while fighting.. his only kage lvl feats are his durability.. his speed sucks ass, his attack while powerful coulndn't even come close to repeating a casual gai's backhand..


Gai casually backhanded a small wave of  and exhausted CE gaara's sand.  SRA Gaara was noted to be stronger than he was in the CE and Kimimaro was running through Gaara's prepped sand defense.



Stermor said:


> drunk lee not getting instantly raped by gai has more to do with cis/pis then anything usefull.. *gai has the speed to move faster then lee can even react regardless of position..*


what is the bolded based on?  Gai was knocked out by drunk lee, that's straight up Kishi portraying drunk lee as superior to base Gai.  We didn't see drunk lee vs base Gai so there is no PIS/CIS since that only applies to fights we see, not offpanel fights.



Stermor said:


> kimi stopping juugo's rampages are overrated.. it only means he can survive juugo.. and it was something hebi sasuke did without effort..


Don't ignore the arguments.  Kimimaro not only stopped juugo's rampages he stopped them WITHOUT GETTING HURT.  That puts him easily above Juugo's level and in the same boat as Hebi Sasuke who also stopped juugo's rampage without getting hurt. 

In addition to that, Karin said that he was the ONLY one of orochimaru's men that could stop juugo without getting hurt.  That would include Kabuto who was Kakashi level in part 1.



Stermor said:


> also pretty sure hien is superior to samurai's swords..


Although there is no manga feat or evidence that suggests that, I give Asuma the benefit of the doubt and even with that  CS2 bones are superior to base kimimaro's bones which is why I say it would balance out any superiority Asuma's hien has to samurai's chakra flow swords.



Stermor said:


> anyway kimi by feats is just to slow to compete with elite jounin who can hurt him..


A KCM Naruto clone and Mifune are both far superior to Asuma in everything especially speed, yet neither were able to defeat a Kimimaro who was not on the verge of death from sickness.

 This speed gap you are talking about is non-existant and would only possibly apply to the deathly ill kimimaro we've seen in part 1.


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## Olympian (Apr 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> it might be sharper than the samurai's chakra flow since it hasn't been specifically stated to be raiton chakra, however raiton flow has been stated to be sharper than fuuton.




We see Kisame making that exact reference by watching a feat that Asuma`s Hien _easily replicated if not surpassed _when he was briefly training Naruto. While _holding back_ his strength, by his own direct admission. 

Which is why being a no name kind of matters.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Apr 4, 2013)

The underestimation on Kimimaro is astounding.

The kid reacted to Rock Lee's first celestial gate with ease. Asuma has no feats displaying speed on this level. He'll have a hell of a time even touching Kimimaro, let alone land a solid strike on him.


If Kimimaro is at level 2 of the Cursed Seal, then *Dance of the Seedling Fern*  is going to rear its head. Without Knowledge, no way in fuck is Asuma surviving that.

Hell, even if he *did*  have knowledge on it, the speed and AOE of the jutsu just plain overwhelms him.

Kimimaro takes this home, *5/10*  difficulty.


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## Innerhype (Apr 4, 2013)

I'd like to point out that Kimimaro didn't react to Lee's speed, look again. He was simply standing in place.

Sorry, it's just something I see being said too often hehe


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## Quikdraw7777 (Apr 4, 2013)

Innerhype said:


> I'd like to point out that Kimimaro didn't react to Lee's speed, look again. He was simply standing in place.
> 
> Sorry, it's just something I see being said too often hehe






He seen the attack, and closed his bones on it precisely before it hit. It takes insane reflexes  to do that.

Either way, Asuma's speed with Taijutsu is a tier below Rock Lee under the influence of the Celestial Gates.


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## ueharakk (Apr 4, 2013)

Olympian said:


> We see Kisame making that exact reference by watching a feat that Asuma`s Hien _easily replicated if not surpassed _when he was briefly training Naruto. While _holding back_ his strength, by his own direct admission.
> 
> Which is why being a no name kind of matters.



the thing is Asuma threw actual chakra blades through the tree while bee through a mere pencil....


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## Zhmdeng (Apr 5, 2013)

The amount of Asuma wank on this thread is astounding. Kimimaro was Oro's top candidate for his vessel before sasuke. Do you really think he would choose someone that was of low-jounin level as some people on this thread are claiming? 

Facts are facts. Kimimaro not only beat drunken-fist Lee, but low-Kage level Gaara as well. All this while he was essentially on his death-bed. Rock Lee's hospital shit doesn't even come close to the what Kimimaro was suffering. Asuma is perhaps a high-jounin but there is no way he could beat Kimimaro when he has chakra-enhanced bones that could break steel kunai (shown in manga) and regenerate them at any time and from any part of his body. Even if Asuma was able to cut through some of them, they would just grow back. Asuma also has no way of surviving Kimimaro's final dance. 

Kimimaro wins this 8/10.


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## Stermor (Apr 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Kimimaro gets to be slower than pre-skip lee and still be kage-level since by right Kimimaro was so deathly ill that he shouldn't have been capable of moving at all and was moving his body through sheer willpower.



he has no feats of speed beyond that lvl so he is not kage lvl!!!! not that hard to unerstand right.. 



ueharakk said:


> Gai casually backhanded a small wave of  and exhausted CE gaara's sand.  SRA Gaara was noted to be stronger than he was in the CE and Kimimaro was running through Gaara's prepped sand defense.



gaara didn't see gai move.. while he never lost sight of kimimaro even for a second.. also kimi never broke through the sand with speed.. he was always caught well before it reached gaara.. gaara sometimes did have a problem with the strnetgh of the attacks... but never the speed.. 



ueharakk said:


> what is the bolded based on?  Gai was knocked out by drunk lee, that's straight up Kishi portraying drunk lee as superior to base Gai.  We didn't see drunk lee vs base Gai so there is no PIS/CIS since that only applies to fights we see, not offpanel fights.



uhm for instance gaara couldnt react to gai, but he could react to 5 gated lee(gourd disolving).. but any of gai's feats in part 2 should be enough..  and are you really saying that gai would have no pis/cis against drunk lee..  



ueharakk said:


> Don't ignore the arguments.  Kimimaro not only stopped juugo's rampages he stopped them WITHOUT GETTING HURT.  That puts him easily above Juugo's level and in the same boat as Hebi Sasuke who also stopped juugo's rampage without getting hurt.



nope... we don't know if kimi got hurt from juugo or not.. second hebi sasuke did not have to fight juugo he used something as basic as killing intent.. stopping juugo is not something that would ever grant kimimaro status even close to hebi sasuke.. and juugo might very easily just beat of kimimaro felt satisfied and just returned to normal.. and because of kimimaro's impressive defense we have no idee.. end results stopping juugo does nothing for kimimaro.. 



ueharakk said:


> In addition to that, Karin said that he was the ONLY one of orochimaru's men that could stop juugo without getting hurt.  That would include Kabuto who was Kakashi level in part 1.


v

which we know is bull.. because kakashi and kabuto would take kimi out without a problem.. also water boy didn't seem to impressed with juugo.. no again that statement while nice gives us nothing.. 



ueharakk said:


> Although there is no manga feat or evidence that suggests that, I give Asuma the benefit of the doubt and even with that  CS2 bones are superior to base kimimaro's bones which is why I say it would balance out any superiority Asuma's hien has to samurai's chakra flow swords.



you might have a point here.. hien cutting easily through kimimaro might be hard in cs2.. but really the swords could aswell.. hien beeing used by somebody so much faster should have no problem getting through eventually.. 



ueharakk said:


> A KCM Naruto clone and Mifune are both far superior to Asuma in everything especially speed, yet neither were able to defeat a Kimimaro who was not on the verge of death from sickness.



a kcm naruto is superior.. mifune we don't know.. sasuke blocked him easily.. asuma should be capable of the same.. also lol at thinking a kcm clone is going to have any problems with kimimaro.. we again don't know the circomstances in which kimimaro survived dogded/ missed the frs.... again it does not really give kimimaro any usefull feats.. 



ueharakk said:


> This speed gap you are talking about is non-existant and would only possibly apply to the deathly ill kimimaro we've seen in part 1.



the deathly ill kimimaro is the only kimi we have seen with clear feats.. you describe kimimaro used on statement that might be true.. but can be explained in to many ways for us to take it as fact.. kimimaro likely was much faster without his diseace.. but we don't know.. and none of the statement give clear cut answer to that.. therefor he for the battledome does not excist.. 

and the speed kimi has is based on beeing slower then pre skip weakened lee.. therefor his speed sucks when compairing it against elite jounins... especially one who is already fast himself..



Zhmdeng said:


> The amount of Asuma wank on this thread is astounding. Kimimaro was Oro's top candidate for his vessel before sasuke. Do you really think he would choose someone that was of low-jounin level as some people on this thread are claiming?
> 
> Facts are facts. Kimimaro not only beat drunken-fist Lee, but low-Kage level Gaara as well. All this while he was essentially on his death-bed. Rock Lee's hospital shit doesn't even come close to the what Kimimaro was suffering. Asuma is perhaps a high-jounin but there is no way he could beat Kimimaro when he has chakra-enhanced bones that could break steel kunai (shown in manga) and regenerate them at any time and from any part of his body. Even if Asuma was able to cut through some of them, they would just grow back. Asuma also has no way of surviving Kimimaro's final dance.
> 
> Kimimaro wins this 8/10.



uhm you do understand that ones kimimaro had taken over kimi orochimarus body would be greatly empowered by his defense.. nothing about that is saying anything about kimi's own power..  

low lvl kage gaara who couldn't even see gai(elite jounin) move kinda means gaara was not kage lvl at the time.. 

we all know kimi was sick.. but since we don't know how much better was when healthy it becomes irrelevant..


----------



## Olympian (Apr 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> the thing is Asuma threw actual chakra blades through the tree while bee through a mere pencil....



The key point is Asuma holding back his whole strength where his blade could have easily trounced throught the whole boulder behind the tree. Naruto used the same blade and it didn`t come close to piercing throught the tree at all.


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## Olympian (Apr 5, 2013)

Zhmdeng said:


> The amount of Asuma wank on this thread is astounding. Kimimaro was Oro's top candidate for his vessel before sasuke. Do you really think he would choose someone that was of low-jounin level as some people on this thread are claiming?.



Neither character is low level.  



Zhmdeng said:


> Facts are facts. Kimimaro not only beat drunken-fist Lee, but low-Kage level Gaara as well.



Kimimaro beat the same Gaara that under the same conditions, any of the 3 main sensei could beat. Just an arc ago, Sasuke was running laps over Gaara making him look like a turtle and his Chodori was piercing throught his main defense.  



Zhmdeng said:


> All this while he was essentially on his death-bed. Rock Lee's hospital shit doesn't even come close to the what Kimimaro was suffering. Asuma is perhaps a high-jounin but there is no way he could beat Kimimaro when he has chakra-enhanced bones that could break steel kunai (shown in manga) and regenerate them at any time and from any part of his body.



Asuma`s Hien can easily replicate the same feat, thought. 



Zhmdeng said:


> Even if Asuma was able to cut through some of them, they would just grow back. Asuma also has no way of surviving Kimimaro's final dance.



He got enough stats to last. Not to mention, long range Futton and Katon to hurt Kimimaro over a bigger distance.


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## ueharakk (Apr 5, 2013)

Olympian said:


> The key point is Asuma holding back his whole strength where his blade could have easily trounced throught the whole boulder behind the tree. Naruto used the same blade and it didn`t come close to piercing throught the tree at all.



well then that leaves us with an inconclusive verdict by feats since Asuma was holding back and bee was only using a pencil (unless you know how to quantify both of them in regards to one another).

Therefore we should go by statements, and thus by statements Raiton blade is more penetrating than a fuuton blade.



Stermor said:


> he has no feats of speed beyond that lvl so he is not kage lvl!!!! not that hard to unerstand right..


that's irrelevant because that lvl was when he was deathly ill and was moving his body through sheer willpower alone, it has nothing to do with a healthy kimimaro at full power.  




Stermor said:


> gaara didn't see gai move.. while he never lost sight of kimimaro even for a second.. also kimi never broke through the sand with speed.. he was always caught well before it reached gaara.. gaara sometimes did have a problem with the strnetgh of the attacks... but never the speed..


That was an exhausted CE gaara who was focusing on lee.  And speed is explained by Kimimaro being deathly ill and moving his body through sheer willpower.




Stermor said:


> uhm for instance gaara couldnt react to gai, but he could react to 5 gated lee(gourd disolving).. but any of gai's feats in part 2 should be enough..  and are you really saying that gai would have no pis/cis against drunk lee..


See above reason for gaara not being able to react.  Sasuke couldn't react to Base Naruto when Naruto saved Sakura, but that doesn't mean that in an actual fight he would not be able to react to Base Naruto's speed.  Gaara wasn't able to react to base naruto while even in his partially transformed self, yet base naruto isn't speedblitzing him.
If anything, Gai would not be trying to fight with killing intent, only to knock lee out or subdue him, but that at worse would mean that Lee is at base Gai's level just not a level above him.



Stermor said:


> nope... we don't know if kimi got hurt from juugo or not..


the manga explicitly stated that Kimi was the only one who could stop juugo's rampages without getting hurt, how does that equal "we don't know if kimi got hurt or not"?



Stermor said:


> second hebi sasuke did not have to fight juugo he used something as basic as killing intent.. stopping juugo is not something that would ever grant kimimaro status even close to hebi sasuke..


He used killilng intent plus bound them in snakes, and even after that Juugo still ran away, and was telling Sasuke that only Kimimaro could stop him.  So he still wasn't convinced of Sasuke's power.



Stermor said:


> and juugo might very easily just beat of kimimaro felt satisfied and just returned to normal.. and because of kimimaro's impressive defense we have no idee.. end results stopping juugo does nothing for kimimaro..


Kimimaro was undamaged, so any notion of Juugo not only damaging kimimaro, but beating him is straight up against the manga canon.  In addition to that we've never seen juugo return to normal after beating a singular opponent, he only has canonically returned to normal after being defeated, thus that is what Kimimaro did.



Stermor said:


> which we know is bull.. because kakashi and kabuto would take kimi out without a problem.. also water boy didn't seem to impressed with juugo.. no again that statement while nice gives us nothing..


The part of Kakashi and Kabuto is a circular argument: Kimimaro isn't stronger than Kakashi and Kabuto because.... Kakashi and Kabuto would take kimi out without a problem.  It's like saying "chapter one naruto could beat RS because chapter one naruto can beat RS".

Suigetsu was fighting evenly with only a partially transformed juugo, and suigetsu is pretty darn strong himself.  Kimimaro had to go up against Juugo through many rampages and would have had to fight him even when fully transformed.



Stermor said:


> you might have a point here.. hien cutting easily through kimimaro might be hard in cs2.. but really the swords could aswell.. hien beeing used by somebody so much faster should have no problem getting through eventually..


I don't think it will get through eventually as Kimimaro can just grow more bone throughout the course of the fight.  If Asuma stands there and tries to complete the cut through the bone, he's wide open to being ended.




Stermor said:


> a kcm naruto is superior.. mifune we don't know.. sasuke blocked him easily.. asuma should be capable of the same..


Sasuke not only has the three tomoe sharingan which puts his reactions way above asuma's, but also his speed is way above asuma's as well, so sasuke's feats do not apply to asuma.

In addition to that, you would not only be arguing that asuma can repeat sasuke's feat, you would be arguing that asuma is on a whole nother level of speed than mifune as mifune was unable to defeat kimimaro with his super speed.



Stermor said:


> also lol at thinking a kcm clone is going to have any problems with kimimaro.. we again don't know the circomstances in which kimimaro survived dogded/ missed the frs.... again it does not really give kimimaro any usefull feats..


KCM Naruto was still there after the FRS exploded.  And we are shown that both he and Mifune are engaging Kimimaro, yet both were unsuccessful in defeating him before edo tensei was released.  How can one not even be close to asuma's level of speed, yet be able to fight a KCM Naruto clone and Mifune?
It's not fair to say that "since it hasn't been shown on panel, then it means 0" when there isn't any evidence against it.  Feats > hype, however if we are lacking in relevant feats, then we turn to hype/ author portrayal. 



Stermor said:


> the deathly ill kimimaro is the only kimi we have seen with clear feats.. you describe kimimaro used on statement that might be true.. but can be explained in to many ways for us to take it as fact.. kimimaro likely was much faster without his diseace.. but we don't know.. and none of the statement give clear cut answer to that.. therefor he for the battledome does not excist..


That's just saying that we have to be able to prove to a 100% certainty that something is true in order for use to accept it.  In the battledome we make arguments based of tons and tons of assumptions that we cannot prove, however rather than say "if you can't prove it then it's not true" (which would not allow even the simplest debates to be conducted) we should follow the evidence where it leads, and I think that from the evidence that i've given in this thread when we are asked the question:

"Was healthy Kimimaro much faster than his sick counterpart?"  
the most supported answer would be "yes".  




Stermor said:


> and the speed kimi has is based on beeing slower then pre skip weakened lee.. therefor his speed sucks when compairing it against elite jounins... especially one who is already fast himself..


yeah, with this same kind of logic, the mirror of yaata can only block paper bombs since that's the strongest thing that we know it went up against.

It's not a fair method of evaluating the abilities of individuals.  Feats > hype, however if we lack relevant feats in a certain department, then we turn to hype.

Author's intent of a healthy Kimimaro was for him to be:
- stronger than part 1 Kabuto and by extension Kakashi
- stronger than Juugo
- on the same level as Hebi Sasuke
- strong enough to not be defeated by KCM Naruto clone and Mifune

since we do not have any speed feats that are relevant to a healthy kimimaro, we go by hype, and with the hype that he's being given, I do not see him being slower than Azuma whos speed isn't given any praise, and as a fighter, by hype he's most likely a level above Asuma's own.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Apr 5, 2013)

*Dance of the Seedling Fern *  =  GG Asuma.

He has nothing in his arsenal that suggests he can survive even the first stage of this Jutsu.

Healthy Kimimaro or not, Asuma gets his shit kicked.


----------



## Skywalker (Apr 5, 2013)

Innerhype said:


> I'd like to point out that Kimimaro didn't react to Lee's speed, look again. He was simply standing in place.
> 
> Sorry, it's just something I see being said too often hehe


Oh you, with your Lee avatar and whatnot.  Kimimaro easily reacted to him.

Asuma isn't taking down Kimimaro, by any means, I'm not saying it's a stomp, but he's going to lose.


----------



## Stermor (Apr 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> that's irrelevant because that lvl was when he was deathly ill and was moving his body through sheer willpower alone, it has nothing to do with a healthy kimimaro at full power.
> 
> true, still doesn't give him feats anywhere close to asuma's though.. or for that matter any elite jounin..
> 
> ...



no gaara was watching lee.. gai appeared directly infront.. and gaara was just as beat up while he reacted to 5 gated lee.. so that doesn't work.. and yes we know kimi is faster when healthy.. just don't know how much.. 



ueharakk said:


> See above reason for gaara not being able to react.  Sasuke couldn't react to Base Naruto when Naruto saved Sakura, but that doesn't mean that in an actual fight he would not be able to react to Base Naruto's speed.  Gaara wasn't able to react to base naruto while even in his partially transformed self, yet base naruto isn't speedblitzing him.
> If anything, Gai would not be trying to fight with killing intent, only to knock lee out or subdue him, but that at worse would mean that Lee is at base Gai's level just not a level above him.



uhm there is a difference reacting to somebody you see comming and somebody you don't see comming.. but since naruto was in sage mode.. it makes not real difference(since naruto is much faster in sage mode).. 

gaara reacted to naruto pretty decently even while half transformed(which lowered his movement speed.. but naruto got through not because he was faster but because he used huge ammount of numbers.. 

no that means at best drunk lee got a lucky shot at gai which might have knocked him out.. doesn't really matter though since gai has many significantly superior feats.. 



ueharakk said:


> the manga explicitly stated that Kimi was the only one who could stop juugo's rampages without getting hurt, how does that equal "we don't know if kimi got hurt or not"?



uhm seriously hurt.. naruto came out the forest of death without any injury(barring the seal) while he was hurt pretty badly before.. but the kyuubi healed it.. in this case kimi is the same.. it requires alot to hurt kimi badly.. we can be fairly sure kimi would get some wounds from juugo's chakra cannons.. we just know it doesn't get through the bone skin.. anyway the statement is obviously bullshit since orochimaru would slice juugo in half without effort.. 



ueharakk said:


> He used killilng intent plus bound them in snakes, and even after that Juugo still ran away, and was telling Sasuke that only Kimimaro could stop him.  So he still wasn't convinced of Sasuke's power.



but he stopped, and water boy had no problems engaging juugo.. also there is a pretty decent skill gap between people if you can force them to stop using killing intent.. 



ueharakk said:


> Kimimaro was undamaged, so any notion of Juugo not only damaging kimimaro, but beating him is straight up against the manga canon.  In addition to that we've never seen juugo return to normal after beating a singular opponent, he only has canonically returned to normal after being defeated, thus that is what Kimimaro did.



uhm if you can hurt kimi(badly) kimi is going to die.. getting past his bone armor is the hardest part in killing kimi.. juugo cleary wasn't able to do that.. kimi has no feats anywhere near juugo that he could actually beat juugo in return though.. 

sasuke using killing intent did... so that point is wrong.. 



ueharakk said:


> The part of Kakashi and Kabuto is a circular argument: Kimimaro isn't stronger than Kakashi and Kabuto because.... Kakashi and Kabuto would take kimi out without a problem.  It's like saying "chapter one naruto could beat RS because chapter one naruto can beat RS".



no i'm saying that because kabuto and kakashi have feats and a means to bypass/destroy the bone armor.. with chakra scalpels or raikiri..



ueharakk said:


> Suigetsu was fighting evenly with only a partially transformed juugo, and suigetsu is pretty darn strong himself.  Kimimaro had to go up against Juugo through many rampages and would have had to fight him even when fully transformed.



true.. but nothing here indicates he cleary won.. just that he fought.. 



ueharakk said:


> I don't think it will get through eventually as Kimimaro can just grow more bone throughout the course of the fight.  If Asuma stands there and tries to complete the cut through the bone, he's wide open to being ended.



uhm i ment as eventuelly as in a split second it take to pierce the eye bone or something.. 



ueharakk said:


> Sasuke not only has the three tomoe sharingan which puts his reactions way above asuma's, but also his speed is way above asuma's as well, so sasuke's feats do not apply to asuma.



well then we come to the hole sasuke about similar to kakashi versus asuma could hang with that.. no interesting in doing that again.. but suffice to say hidan gives asuma decent speed feats.. 



ueharakk said:


> In addition to that, you would not only be arguing that asuma can repeat sasuke's feat, you would be arguing that asuma is on a whole nother level of speed than mifune as mifune was unable to defeat kimimaro with his super speed.



i would be arguing that mifune is weaker then sasuke... and that mifune was unable to hurt kimi.. not that mifune is unable to hit kimimaro.. since cleary fodder swordsmen can do that.. 



ueharakk said:


> KCM Naruto was still there after the FRS exploded.  And we are shown that both he and Mifune are engaging Kimimaro, yet both were unsuccessful in defeating him before edo tensei was released.  How can one not even be close to asuma's level of speed, yet be able to fight a KCM Naruto clone and Mifune?



uhm frs hit something else?? kcm clones focessed down the other edo's?? or kcm just destroyed the body and the edo regened while kcm was busy somewhere else?? there are to many options here that you can't give kimimaro anything.. 



ueharakk said:


> It's not fair to say that "since it hasn't been shown on panel, then it means 0" when there isn't any evidence against it.  Feats > hype, however if we are lacking in relevant feats, then we turn to hype/ author portrayal.



no the thing is we know kimimaro is stronger.. but we don't know how mutch.. and granting him speed which we have no clear proof he has.. is not possible.. the statements you descirbed can be explained in to many ways to say kimi has that much speed.. so since we can't be sure.. he remains the speed we know he can produce agaist pre skip lee.. 




ueharakk said:


> That's just saying that we have to be able to prove to a 100% certainty that something is true in order for use to accept it.  In the battledome we make arguments based of tons and tons of assumptions that we cannot prove, however rather than say "if you can't prove it then it's not true" (which would not allow even the simplest debates to be conducted) we should follow the evidence where it leads, and I think that from the evidence that i've given in this thread when we are asked the question:
> 
> "Was healthy Kimimaro much faster than his sick counterpart?"
> the most supported answer would be "yes".



no the case here is not is he stronger since we know he was.. but giving him a increase which based on interpetation of statements can be widely varied.. 



ueharakk said:


> yeah, with this same kind of logic, the mirror of yaata can only block paper bombs since that's the strongest thing that we know it went up against.
> 
> It's not a fair method of evaluating the abilities of individuals.  Feats > hype, however if we lack relevant feats in a certain department, then we turn to hype.
> 
> ...



ye and i say by hype he isn't.. the statements are not clear.. neither be right untill we get more feats.. but do you get the point?? we can't just grant him more speed since you believe he has more speed then i do.. while feats give him even lower speed then both us think he has.. 

anyway i believe kimimaro healthy could probebly fight juugo on an equal basis.. but again we don't know.. and we can't just give him a certain ammount of speed.. no statements made about him are clear enough that we can give him an accurate level.. therefor he is fucked and gets nothing....


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## Innerhype (Apr 5, 2013)

Skywalker said:


> Oh you, with your Lee avatar and whatnot.  Kimimaro easily reacted to him.
> 
> Asuma isn't taking down Kimimaro, by any means, I'm not saying it's a stomp, but he's going to lose.





Don't tell me you're suggesting Kimimaro "closed" his bones around Lee's foot as well!?


And yeah, while I think Asuma is certainly going down it isn't going to be completely one-sided like some would suggest.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 5, 2013)

Stermor said:


> no gaara was watching lee.. gai appeared directly infront.. and gaara was just as beat up while he reacted to 5 gated lee.. so that doesn't work.. and yes we know kimi is faster when healthy.. just don't know how much..


Gaara did not react to 5 gated lee's movement speed, he was only able to react fast enough to turn his gourd into sand before he hit the ground.  Before then, he couldn't even see lee.

And gai appearing in front of him doesn't matter as he was focused on lee.




Stermor said:


> uhm there is a difference reacting to somebody you see comming and somebody you don't see comming.. but since naruto was in sage mode.. it makes not real difference(since naruto is much faster in sage mode)..


I'm not talking about SM Naruto, I was talking about base naruto when he saved Sakura from Sasuke before Sasuke or even Kakashi (whom was watching from a distance) could react.



Stermor said:


> gaara reacted to naruto pretty decently even while half transformed(which lowered his movement speed.. but naruto got through not because he was faster but because he used huge ammount of numbers..


being half-transformed in no way lowered his movement speed, it made him faster than Sasuke who was as fast as lee without weights.

And i'm talking about when Naruto blitzed gaara before gaara or sasuke could even react.



Stermor said:


> no that means at best drunk lee got a lucky shot at gai which might have knocked him out.. doesn't really matter though since gai has many significantly superior feats..


how does that mean at best drunk lee got a lucky shot at Gai?  And if he did, then that still means that Gai is only at drunk lee's level since he gets taken out by a single shot.

Gai may have superior strength feats, compared to drunk lee, but lee's overall battle capabilities are dangerous in that his style is unorthadox, so even if Gai has superior strength or speed that would not put him above drunk lee's level.



Stermor said:


> uhm seriously hurt.. naruto came out the forest of death without any injury(barring the seal) while he was hurt pretty badly before.. but the kyuubi healed it.. in this case kimi is the same.. it requires alot to hurt kimi badly.. we can be fairly sure kimi would get some wounds from juugo's chakra cannons.. we just know it doesn't get through the bone skin..


the statement was not about him getting 'seriously hurt' it was said 'not hurt' which means no injuries, so the assertion that karin was talking about juugo seriously hurting kimi is anti-canon.  In addition to that, healing from an attack after it injures you does not mean you were not hurt.

next, juugo being 'capable' of hurting kimi with attacks is irrelevant as that just means that Kimi dodged those attacks if Juugo used them.  Saying that Juugo has an attack that can hurt kimi means when they fought, Juugo hurt kimi is like saying that because Konohomaru can hurt Kakashi, kakashi will be hurt if he fights Konohomaru.



Stermor said:


> anyway the statement is obviously bullshit since orochimaru would slice juugo in half without effort..


She was not including Orochimaru as Orochimaru is not one of orochimaru's servants.




Stermor said:


> but he stopped, and water boy had no problems engaging juugo.. also there is a pretty decent skill gap between people if you can force them to stop using killing intent..


covered suigetsu already, and sure I can agree there is a big skillgap if you can force them to stop using killing intent, however even after Sasuke does that, Juugo is still convinced that only Kimimaro can control him, and it takes a huge skillgap to stop a bloodlusted person while sustaining no injuries yourself.




Stermor said:


> uhm if you can hurt kimi(badly) kimi is going to die.. getting past his bone armor is the hardest part in killing kimi.. juugo cleary wasn't able to do that.. kimi has no feats anywhere near juugo that he could actually beat juugo in return though..


Yet Kimi's feats that we've seen are irrelevant because he was deathly sick when he fought lee and gaara, thus we go by statements and author portrayal, and by that, Kimi is easily juugo's superior.



Stermor said:


> sasuke using killing intent did... so that point is wrong..


yet juugo is still convinced that ONLY Kimi can consistently stop him despite being calmed by sasuke's killing intent.




Stermor said:


> no i'm saying that because kabuto and kakashi have feats and a means to bypass/destroy the bone armor.. with chakra scalpels or raikiri..


so what if they have a means of killing kimi, konohomaru can kill EMS Madara if he stabs him in the head with a kunai.  
Having the firepower to kill someone =/= being able to land that firepower on them or being able to beat them before they beat you.  




Stermor said:


> true.. but nothing here indicates he cleary won.. just that he fought..


The only way Kimimaro could have stopped juugo's rampages without sustaining any damage is if he is stronger than Juugo himself.




Stermor said:


> uhm i ment as eventuelly as in a split second it take to pierce the eye bone or something..


you mean Asuma stabs him in the eye?  




Stermor said:


> well then we come to the hole sasuke about similar to kakashi versus asuma could hang with that.. no interesting in doing that again.. but suffice to say hidan gives asuma decent speed feats..


Hidan alone was able to draw blood against Asuma while asuma was fighting him with his hein.

Hidan and Kakuzu combined weren't able to draw blood from kakashi while kakashi was only using a kunai.  That puts Kakashi's reactions and speed beyond Asuma's own.




Stermor said:


> i would be arguing that mifune is weaker then sasuke... and that mifune was unable to hurt kimi.. not that mifune is unable to hit kimimaro.. since cleary fodder swordsmen can do that..


If mifune is unable to hurt kimi, then why would Asuma be able to do so?  The only way is that Asuma would have to be faster than Mifune.




Stermor said:


> uhm frs hit something else?? kcm clones focessed down the other edo's?? or kcm just destroyed the body and the edo regened while kcm was busy somewhere else?? there are to many options here that you can't give kimimaro anything..


- FRS hitting something else is irrelevant since naruto would have sensed kimi and continued to fight.  
- KCM NAruto was talking directly to kimi about defeating him, so he's not going to fight other edos until kimi is sealed. 
-  Samurai armada had sealers with him, and naruto's attacks in KCM are so powerful it takes edos chapters to regenerate so there is no excuse for them being not sealed.




Stermor said:


> no the thing is we know kimimaro is stronger.. but we don't know how mutch.. and granting him speed which we have no clear proof he has.. is not possible.. the statements you descirbed can be explained in to many ways to say kimi has that much speed.. so since we can't be sure.. he remains the speed we know he can produce agaist pre skip lee..


Once again, you are allocating an enormous burden of proof on the opposition in order for me to show via a 100% certainty that Kimimaro is much faster.  

Most of the explanations you've given to try and dispute the statements don't really make sense and thus I have given the rebutal to try and show exactly why they do so.





Stermor said:


> no the case here is not is he stronger since we know he was.. but giving him a increase which based on interpetation of statements can be widely varied..


I've shown how your interpretation of the statements do not logically make sense and that one looking at those statements objectively would easily be able to identify the author's clear intent to put Kimimaro both above juugo, part 1 kakashi, part 1 kabuto, and at Hebi Sasuke's level.



Stermor said:


> ye and i say by hype he isn't.. the statements are not clear.. neither be right untill we get more feats.. but do you get the point?? we can't just grant him more speed since you believe he has more speed then i do.. while feats give him even lower speed then both us think he has..


Once again, shifting an enormous burden of proof onto the opposition in order to throw out arguments that don't support the stance you want to be true. 



Stermor said:


> *anyway i believe kimimaro healthy could probebly fight juugo on an equal basis.. but again we don't know.. *and we can't just give him a certain ammount of speed.. no statements made about him are clear enough that we can give him an accurate level.. therefor he is fucked and gets nothing....


At the bolded.  How is it that Drunk lee knocking out Gai not put lee at Gai's level, yet Kimimaro being able to stop juugo's rampages with zero damage only put Kimimaro at juugo's level?

the statements made about him were very clear to those looking at them objectively, it's possible to skew pretty much any statement in the manga no matter how direct it is to possibly mean something that it does not and call it "unclear."

So no, it's not like Kimimaro was given one outlier statement thats meaning was uncertain, he was given multiple statements both in part 1 and in part 2 that puts his healthy self roughly in the same level that I am arguing that he is at, and I think that anyone looking at our argument objectively would agree to that.


----------



## Stermor (Apr 5, 2013)

@ueharakk again the thing is all statement made about kimimaro can be explained in different ways.. 

his bone defense beeing strong enough that juugo can't hurt him.. which is inline with his displayed feats of great defense.. but it gives reasonable doubt that kimi was not superior to juugo as you state but a punching dummy for juugo.. in reality it is probeble they where equals

this is just an example but this is the case for all statement made about kimimaro..  there is doubt in how everything is done.. 

look it is probebly true that kimimaro would be at a similar lvl as juugo.. but since we can't know for certain( as in there is to much doubt) we can't grant him something like that.. therefor we don't.. 

it is just like tobirama can't be used since we have no clue how fast he is.. we have some feats/statements similar to kimimaro.. but since we can't know for certain they can't be used.. 

anyway it comes down to it there is to much doubt in how kimimaro did the things he did.. that you can't grant him anything.. 

therefor healthy or unhealthy he is virtually the same.. while we both know he is probebly better..


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 5, 2013)

Stermor said:


> @ueharakk again the thing is all statement made about kimimaro can be explained in different ways..


any statement no matter how direct and how blatant can be skewed or interpreted in a different way if there is enough motivation to do so.




Stermor said:


> his bone defense beeing strong enough that juugo can't hurt him.. which is inline with his displayed feats of great defense.. but it gives reasonable doubt that kimi was not superior to juugo as you state but a punching dummy for juugo.. in reality it is probeble they where equals


- You've stated yourself that juugo has the firepower to hurt kimimaro such as his laser.
- Juugo has never calmed down after simply beating on someone for a long time, canonically unless you stop him with killing intent or genjutsu, he has always been defeated.

Those two are knockdowns for your "punching bag" theory.  In addition to that, by occam's razor, the best explanation for something is one that utilizes less assumptions.  Do you have any evidence that points towards Kimimaro being a punching bag other than the mere possibility of that?

and then independent from the knockdowns above, there's still the other statements that put Kimimaro above juugo which would be positive evidence against the 'punching bag' theory.



Stermor said:


> this is just an example but this is the case for all statement made about kimimaro..  there is doubt in how everything is done..


of course there is doubt, almost every statement and every piece of evidence we use to formulate an argument in the battledome is based on un-provable assumptions.  Thus it is fallacious to say because you can't 100% prove something to an absolute certainty, the whole argument itself holds no relevance and all the evidence is meaningless.  




Stermor said:


> look it is probebly true that kimimaro would be at a similar lvl as juugo.. but since we can't know for certain( as in there is to much doubt) we can't grant him something like that.. therefor we don't..


See above statement.  Almost every single argument and evidence brought into the battledome is based on un-provable assumptions.  



Stermor said:


> it is just like tobirama can't be used since we have no clue how fast he is.. we have some feats/statements similar to kimimaro.. but since we can't know for certain they can't be used..


Going by pure feats Mei >>>> Tobirama as her suitons are tiers greater than what he has shown and thus by your logic what we "know" he can do.

However, do you think that that is an accurate representation of Tobirama?  Do you think that the manga and author's intent is for Tobirama to be far weaker than Mei? 




Stermor said:


> anyway it comes down to it there is to much doubt in how kimimaro did the things he did.. that you can't grant him anything..


no it does not that's a terrible way to look at the manga or any kind of argument because it gives an unfair advantage to people who have had panel time to display feats and such. 

Just because there is doubt because a premise or argument can't be proven to a 100% certainty in no way means that we throw the entire argument out or that it's meaningless.  The best way is to look at the arguments or evidences and find the best possible explanation for that event/statement.  

Do you think that it is correct to say because you can't prove something to a 100% certainty, therefore that premise is false?  Because that's basically what you are doing with Kimimaro in this thread.  I can build a heavily manga-backed argument for where I place him, but if there exists a single alternative hypothesis no matter how unsupported it is no matter how anti-canonical, if it exists, then my argument is automatically falsified.  That's exactly what you are doing in this thread, and I think anyone looking at this objectively would realize that that is not a method of argumentation or looking at the evidence in order to give us an advancement in knowledge.



Stermor said:


> therefor healthy or unhealthy he is virtually the same.. while we both know he is probebly better..


yeah, that's not a good way of evaluating the manga.  Saying something is false unless 100% proven to be true is an unfair burden of proof to place on arguments made about a manga with limited feats and showings of characters.


Your argument is that Asuma would be much faster than Kimimaro right?  Well Wave arc Sasuke was faster than Haku, yet he way slower than weighted lee, and way way slower than weightless lee.  Yet how is it that edo Haku is able to run as fast as zabuza and the other jounins?  It's because in part 2, speed has been retconned and that blitzing via speed only occurs if there is a significant speed gap between opponents.


----------



## Olympian (Apr 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> well then that leaves us with an inconclusive verdict by feats since Asuma was holding back and bee was only using a pencil (unless you know how to quantify both of them in regards to one another)



I think we can quantify that one holding back had a sharper _chakra flow_ than the other. And you can answer "okay, but his blade is naturally sharper than a pencil" and it`s correct. But then, If you want to see how far his standard blade would go against that tree, without any sharp flow control, you just look at Naruto. Bee obviously had a quite sharper flow than Naruto as well. 



ueharakk said:


> Therefore we should go by statements, and thus by statements Raiton blade is more penetrating than a fuuton blade.



Kisame`s statetement versus Asuma`s statement, I guess. Of course he may have just refered to standard levels of  flow control, which wouldn`t make him a liar at all. Now given how Asuma was supposed to be a master of the Wind element and in this War we saw again how Futton overcomes Raiton..



ueharakk said:


> how does that mean at best drunk lee got a lucky shot at Gai?



It`s blatantly clear in Gai`s dialogue that he wasn`t expecting Lee to attack him. At all. 



ueharakk said:


> Hidan alone was able to draw blood against Asuma while asuma was fighting him with his hein.



Hidan+curse half done+adicional blades+no knowledge. 



ueharakk said:


> Hidan and Kakuzu combined weren't able to draw blood from kakashi while kakashi was only using a kunai.  That puts Kakashi's reactions and speed beyond Asuma's own



kakashi+activated Sharingan+knowledge+gimped Hidan



ueharakk said:


> If mifune is unable to hurt kimi, then why would Asuma be able to do so?  The only way is that Asuma would have to be faster than Mifune



Why does he need to be faster than Mifune? He probably "only" requires to have a better piercing technique, use two swords instead of one, be physically stronger - which he is, and have ranged elemental Ninjutsu.



ueharakk said:


> Your argument is that Asuma would be much faster than Kimimaro right?  Well Wave arc Sasuke was faster than Haku, yet he way slower than weighted lee, and way way slower than weightless lee.  Yet how is it that edo Haku is able to run as fast as zabuza and the other jounins?  It's because in part 2, speed has been retconned and that blitzing via speed only occurs if there is a significant speed gap between opponents.



The page mostly shows Haku being able to defend himself against opponents they know are going to hit them. While I certainly agree that speed have been mostly "upgraded" in the general sense to part I characters, I think the margin of differences between the characters then (like Kakashi > Haku) still exist.


----------



## Stermor (Apr 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Going by pure feats Mei >>>> Tobirama as her suitons are tiers greater than what he has shown and thus by your logic what we "know" he can do.
> 
> However, do you think that that is an accurate representation of Tobirama?  Do you think that the manga and author's intent is for Tobirama to be far weaker than Mei?



nope, but for battledome purposes we can't (don't) use tobirama because we don't know the skill set.. same thing is going on her.. don't you understand that by now?? 

look all that crap about kimi's feats and different method of explaining doesn't mather.. i tried to show you that the statements could all be explained in several different ways.. with enough leeway that it creates huge differences. 

you just can't grant somebody a skillset you think they have without clearly defined limits.. and since we don't have those in the least.. we can't grant kimimaro jack shit.. 

healthy kimimaro is the same as tobirama or prime hiruzen.. we know they are strong but they can't be used in battledomes because they don't have clearly defined powers.. 
.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

Olympian said:


> I think we can quantify that one holding back had a sharper _chakra flow_ than the other. And you can answer "okay, but his blade is naturally sharper than a pencil" and it`s correct. But then, If you want to see how far his standard blade would go against that tree, without any sharp flow control, you just look at Naruto. Bee obviously had a quite sharper flow than Naruto as well.


... I don't understand how that means that asuma's chakra flow is sharper than Bees.  You would have to show or give some evidence for the notion that Bee's pencil thrown without any chakra flow would have equal penetrating power to the blade naruto through.




Olympian said:


> Kisame`s statetement versus Asuma`s statement, I guess. Of course he may have just refered to standard levels of  flow control, which wouldn`t make him a liar at all. Now given how Asuma was supposed to be a master of the Wind element and in this War we saw again how Futton overcomes Raiton..


what was Asuma's statement?  Because if it doesn't necessarily contradict raiton flow having more penetrative force than a fuuton statement, I don't see how it's an antagonist to it.  
And fuuton overcomes raiton because of its elemntal afinity, so of course in a direct clash between the elements fuuton is going to come out on top, however when both are used against a defense that does not have an elemental affinity that is weak or resistant to them, the one which is more penetrative is going to penetrate it more.




Olympian said:


> It`s blatantly clear in Gai`s dialogue that he wasn`t expecting Lee to attack him. At all.


that still doesn't give him an excuse for being knocked out before even realizing what has happened, which doesn't happen unless your against someone who is around your level.




Olympian said:


> Hidan+curse half done+adicional blades+no knowledge.


I'm talking about Hidan merely being able to draw blood against Asuma.  The curse being half done, additional blades came after that.  Knowledge is not very relevant as Asuma and Kakashi were both put into a position of defending against Hidan, yet one was cut and the other was not.




Olympian said:


> kakashi+activated Sharingan+knowledge+gimped Hidan


I'm not comparing kakashi w/o sharingan to asuma, so bringing up the fact that he has the sharingan is irrelevant.  Knowledge is not really  relevant as Asuma isn't trying to get tagged even without knowledge, I don't see how hidan was gimped at all.  
None of that stuff makes up for the fact that it was a 2 vs 1 combo attack that kakashi survived without blood being drawn despite Hidan later saying Kakashi is the first person to survive that combo.




Olympian said:


> Why does he need to be faster than Mifune? He probably "only" requires to have a better piercing technique, use two swords instead of one, be physically stronger - which he is, and have ranged elemental Ninjutsu.


He has to be faster than mifune in order to pull off the things the guy is saying Asuma will do to kimi.

If Asuma is physically stronger than Mifune, it isn't by enough to say it makes any difference in this fight.
I don't see how Asuma's piercing technique is "more powerful/penetrative" than mifune's if that's what you mean by better
Two swords instead of one doesn't really make a huge difference if Kimi's bones are resistant to both swords and Kimi can react and defend against them.



Olympian said:


> The page mostly shows Haku being able to defend himself against opponents they know are going to hit them. While I certainly agree that speed have been mostly "upgraded" in the general sense to part I characters, I think the margin of differences between the characters then (like Kakashi > Haku) still exist.


sure, I think Kakashi > Haku in speed still, however one of the biggest part of the gentleman's argument was that Kimimaro is slower than pre-skip base lee and thus he would be way slower than high jounins even while healthy.

Yet speed has been retconned to the point that unless you are called fast or explicitly shown to be faster, everyone's movement speed is generally around the same level.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2013)

Stermor said:


> nope, but for battledome purposes we can't (don't) use tobirama because we don't know the skill set.. same thing is going on her.. don't you understand that by now??


that's not true.  If someone puts Tobirama into a thread and doesn't specify him as part 1 Tobirama, then that means we try to formulate a stance that best represents the Tobirama the OP is talking about based on the manga evidence that we have.  Thus if the best evidence that we have is Tobirama's hype, then we should try and quantify that hype into an argument.



Stermor said:


> look all that crap about kimi's feats and different method of explaining doesn't mather.. i tried to show you that the statements could all be explained in several different ways.. with enough leeway that it creates huge differences.


And I countered this many many times by showing you that ANY statement no matter how blatant or how simple can be skewed to mean something that it does not mean if there is enough motivation to do so.  

Once again, putting a 100% burden of proof on your opposition to prove something else the stance is false does not lead to an advance in knowledge.



Stermor said:


> you just can't grant somebody a skillset you think they have without clearly defined limits.. and since we don't have those in the least.. we can't grant kimimaro jack shit..


Once again, putting a 100% certainty burden of proof on your opposition, else their stance if false is not a logically sound way of debating a manga with limited feats and subjective interpretation of events.  




Stermor said:


> healthy kimimaro is the same as tobirama or prime hiruzen.. we know they are strong but they can't be used in battledomes because they don't have clearly defined powers..
> .


If a thread arises that features healthy kimimaro, tobirama or prime hiruzen, then it means the OP and thread want use to try and give an argument for what these individuals can do based on the information we have been given in the manga.  
It's true that our analysis of these characters based on hype is not going to be as accurate as other characters who have good quantifiable feats.  However an analysis based on less information (hype) is far FAR greater than an analysis based on blatantly false information (saying their sick incarnations = prime selves).


----------



## Stermor (Apr 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> that's not true.  If someone puts Tobirama into a thread and doesn't specify him as part 1 Tobirama, then that means we try to formulate a stance that best represents the Tobirama the OP is talking about based on the manga evidence that we have.  Thus if the best evidence that we have is Tobirama's hype, then we should try and quantify that hype into an argument.
> 
> 
> And I countered this many many times by showing you that ANY statement no matter how blatant or how simple can be skewed to mean something that it does not mean if there is enough motivation to do so.
> ...



seriously.... don't you get the damm point that i see healthy kimimaro differently then you and you can't prove me otherwise(same as i can't prove the what you think kimimaro would be is  not true)

thats why you can't use your fictional kimimaro.. 

hype/statements are not to be taken as true unless you can directly quanitify them..


----------



## Olympian (Apr 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> ... I don't understand how that means that asuma's chakra flow is sharper than Bees.  You would have to show or give some evidence for the notion that Bee's pencil thrown without any chakra flow would have equal penetrating power to the blade naruto through



I think it`s enough that with chakra flow one went through deeper than the other. Asuma`s brass knuckles aren`t swords themselves anyhow, they can kill a man (and have, i.e the Sound squad) without any chakra flow the same way a pencil can kill a man when stabbed with enough force. 



ueharakk said:


> ... what was Asuma's statement?  Because if it doesn't necessarily contradict raiton flow having more penetrative force than a fuuton statement



Asuma`s statement came in the same time where Futton was stated to be sharper than Raiton. Not only because of afinity but because it`s the best element of all for close combat. Asuma`s statement even made reference about two opponents facing with blades and the one having the sharpest one winning, when explaining it to Naruto. 



ueharakk said:


> ... however when both are used against a defense that does not have an elemental affinity that is weak or resistant to them, the one which is more penetrative is going to penetrate it more



Don`t disagree here.



ueharakk said:


> ... that still doesn't give him an excuse for being knocked out before even realizing what has happened, which doesn't happen unless your against someone who is around your level



I`m sorry, it doesn`t "give him an excuse"...? If he wasn`t expecting (as per his own statement) that Lee (a friend - student) would turn out to be unpredictable as he did when he got *drunk*, and hit him, what was he supposed to expect or prepare for, exactly?

Gai is supposed to be fast, not omnipotent. 



ueharakk said:


> ... I'm talking about Hidan merely being able to draw blood against Asuma.  The curse being half done, additional blades came after that.  Knowledge is not very relevant as Asuma and Kakashi were both put into a position of defending against Hidan, yet one was cut and the other was not.



You can`t talk of Asuma being cut without making reference of the combat situation he was put in, because the cut was awarded from Hidan using the adcional blades to set Asuma for the opening and his lack of knowledge made him vulnerable so. Most shinobi keep fighting with cuts because they are expected, whereas if you know that with Hidan it sets up for your death, you become more self aware.

Kakashi not only had Sharingan, he had especific knowledge, i.e he was better prepared. With this I am not saying he had it easy, mind you. 



ueharakk said:


> ... I'm not comparing kakashi w/o sharingan to asuma, so bringing up the fact that he has the sharingan is irrelevant.  Knowledge is not really  relevant as Asuma isn't trying to get tagged even without knowledge, I don't see how hidan was gimped at all.



Having sharingan is irrelevant despite being exactly what made him possible to survive some attacks, knowledge is irrelevant despite being what helped make Asuma more vulnerable and Kakashi more alert and you don`t see Hidan being gimped "at all" despite not using any of the black spears he used against Asuma and his Scytche not having any range with Shikamaru blowing up the rope in the ambush.



ueharakk said:


> ... None of that stuff makes up for the fact that it was a 2 vs 1 combo attack that kakashi survived without blood being drawn despite Hidan later saying Kakashi is the first person to survive that combo.



Sharingan. 



ueharakk said:


> ... He has to be faster than mifune in order to pull off the things the guy is saying Asuma will do to kimi



What, exactly? I`m not in agreement that Asuma is "much faster" than the liks of Kimimaro or Haku, as seen by the War arc, but he doesn`t really need to be. 



ueharakk said:


> ... If Asuma is physically stronger than Mifune, it isn't by enough to say it makes any difference in this fight.



As indicated in the Wind training, his physical strenght _helps_ the cutting force of his swordplay. Even in the training he claimed he held back because it could have gotten dangerous. 



ueharakk said:


> ... I don't see how Asuma's piercing technique is "more powerful/penetrative" than mifune's if that's what you mean by better



What has Mifune cut so far that makes it better?



ueharakk said:


> ... Two swords instead of one doesn't really make a huge difference if Kimi's bones are resistant to both swords and Kimi can react and defend against them



You haven`t really shown they are necessarily that resistant. He wasn`t exactly no selling the Samurai. 



ueharakk said:


> ... sure, I think Kakashi > Haku in speed still, however one of the biggest part of the gentleman's argument was that Kimimaro is slower than pre-skip base lee and thus he would be way slower than high jounins even while healthy



I need to re-read that arc in order to think whether he was slow or not. But then again I am in agreement here, the difference nowadays isn`t staggering like it used to be.


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## Meruem (Apr 7, 2013)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Also with no knowlege and in-character, Kimimaro will assume he can block Asuma's attacks with his bone armor.



Thread pretty much ended here.


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## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2013)

Olympian said:


> I think it`s enough that with chakra flow one went through deeper than the other. Asuma`s brass knuckles aren`t swords themselves anyhow, they can kill a man (and have, i.e the Sound squad) without any chakra flow the same way a pencil can kill a man when stabbed with enough force.


sure a pencil can kill a man just like a chakra knife can kill a man just like Kusanagi can kill a man.  The question is not whether they can kill a man or not, the question is which one is sharper or able to kill a person with less force or more ease when stabbing them in the same area.




Olympian said:


> Asuma`s statement came in the same time where Futton was stated to be sharper than Raiton. Not only because of afinity but because it`s the best element of all for close combat. Asuma`s statement even made reference about two opponents facing with blades and the one having the sharpest one winning, when explaining it to Naruto.


Can you post the statement were Asuma says Fuuton was sharper than Raiton?  If it's just "best element for close combat" it doesn't necessarily mean that fuuton is sharper than raiton.




Olympian said:


> I`m sorry, it doesn`t "give him an excuse"...? If he wasn`t expecting (as per his own statement) that Lee (a friend - student) would turn out to be unpredictable as he did when he got *drunk*, and hit him, what was he supposed to expect or prepare for, exactly?


Shinobi are suppose to be able to react to threats whenever they show themselves, and Gai being prepared is not relevant, as even unprepared he should not be able to get knocked out by an opponent who is below his level.



Olympian said:


> Gai is supposed to be fast, not omnipotent.


you don't have to be omnipotent in order to not get one-shotted by someone who is not at your level regardless if they get the jump on you or not.




Olympian said:


> You can`t talk of Asuma being cut without making reference of the combat situation he was put in, because the cut was awarded from Hidan using the adcional blades to set Asuma for the opening and his lack of knowledge made him vulnerable so. Most shinobi keep fighting with cuts because they are expected, whereas if you know that with Hidan it sets up for your death, you become more self aware.


So basically "Asuma would have played more on the defensive if he had knowledge on Hidan's abilities"?



Olympian said:


> Kakashi not only had Sharingan, he had especific knowledge, i.e he was better prepared. With this I am not saying he had it easy, mind you.
> 
> Having sharingan is irrelevant despite being exactly what made him possible to survive some attacks, knowledge is irrelevant despite being what helped make Asuma more vulnerable and Kakashi more alert and you don`t see Hidan being gimped "at all" despite not using any of the black spears he used against Asuma and his Scytche not having any range with Shikamaru blowing up the rope in the ambush.


Brotherin, reread the argument.  I stated "Kakashi had better reactions and speed that Asuma".  Kakashi's reactions being a result of his sharingan does not matter, as the statement isn't trying to say Kakashi w/o sharingan has better reactions that Asuma, it's just saying that Kakashi with the sharingan has better reactions that Asuma.  it's as if you are trying to dispute the statement that BM Naruto is faster than Asuma by saying "BM Naruto has the kyuubi".  Sure that explains why BM Naruto is faster than Asuma, but what does that have to do in your attempt to prove Asuma is faster than BM Naruto?  Same thing with Kakashi.  Sharingan explains why his reactions are better than Asumas, but how does that have anything to do with showing Kakashi's reactions are NOT better than Asuma's?

Knowledge is not very relevant because Kakashi was forced into CQC situations with Hidan that were the same or worse than Asuma despite not wanting to do so due to knowledge, yet Kakashi comes out unscathed while only using a kunai.

I'll grant you the gimping though, I didn't think about it like that.




Olympian said:


> What, exactly? I`m not in agreement that Asuma is "much faster" than the liks of Kimimaro or Haku, as seen by the War arc, but he doesn`t really need to be.


Remember now, this was a response to the other guy's argument.  If you read what he is saying Asuma does then you would understand why I bring those points up.




Olympian said:


> As indicated in the Wind training, his physical strenght _helps_ the cutting force of his swordplay. Even in the training he claimed he held back because it could have gotten dangerous.


IIRC he was talking about holding back via the chakra amount he put into the knife.  And unless there is a huge physical strength gap between Mifune and Asuma, I don't see how physical strength is going to help him cut better than Mifune in addition to the fact that Mifune's sword slashes have much more leverage and weight behind them since not only is it a sword but he is using two hands.




Olympian said:


> What has Mifune cut so far that makes it better?


His chakra flow is at least equal to Sasuke's raiton kusanagi as neither outdid the other when they clashed, and even without chakra flow he was able to cut through hanzou and his scyth in a single slash.  




Olympian said:


> You haven`t really shown they are necessarily that resistant. He wasn`t exactly no selling the Samurai.


Manga shows Samurai can't cut through a thin piece of bone in a swing.  CS2 Kimimaro's bones are much more dense than thicker than his base bones.  Saying Asuma performs the same as those samurai do against CS2 Kimi's bones is granting your side an immense benefit of doubt, especially since you haven't really shown that asuma's hien are more penetrative than those samurai's chakra flow blades.


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## U mad bro (Apr 8, 2013)

Based on feats Asuma is massively faster than Kimimaro. Also skilled enough to dodge any of his attacks. If Kimimaro couldn't hold of the base speed of some pts genins(Though Lee probably had high chunin level speed) he is no match for Asuma. Asuma decimated a squad of jonin and handled Hidan's and Kakuza's speed at full blast.


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## ueharakk (Apr 8, 2013)

U mad bro said:


> Based on feats Asuma is massively faster than Kimimaro. Also skilled enough to dodge any of his attacks. If Kimimaro couldn't hold of the base speed of some pts genins(Though Lee probably had high chunin level speed) he is no match for Asuma. Asuma decimated a squad of jonin and handled Hidan's and Kakuza's speed at full blast.


that was a kimimaro that was moving his body through sheer willpower, not an accurate representation of a healthy kimimaro

In part 2, speed has been retconned so that people like Haku who was slower than wave arc sasuke (who gets blitzed by weighted lee) is able to keep up with the speed of jounins, and is fast enough that guys like Kakashi, lee and gai don't blitz them (an can actually block a counterblitz by lee and gai).


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## U mad bro (Apr 8, 2013)

First part agree. But he was still never portrayed to be on the level Asuma shown. kimimaro does have alot of backstory hype. With the whole kill Gaara's father incident or was that anime.  Asuma has way better feats against Hidan ,and Kakuza.

Haku speed was never retconned. He was moving at those speeds with his mirrors. He blocked Kakashi raikiri two times not just once. Also he was using his true fighting style. What he did against Sasuke, and Naruto was delay tactics. Nor did he want to kill them. Also Haku mirrors are ninjutsu. Lee uses straight Taijutsu the sharigan processes both differently. Ninjutsu, and genjutsu is easier. That is the only reason Lee could blitz. His speed is more natural.


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## ueharakk (Apr 8, 2013)

U mad bro said:


> First part agree. But he was still never portrayed to be on the level Asuma shown. kimimaro does have alot of backstory hype. With the whole kill Gaara's father incident or was that anime.  Asuma has way better feats against Hidan ,and Kakuza.


Kimimaro has much greater backstory hype that that.  He was equated by Juugo to be at Hebi Sasuke's calibre, and was hyped to be easily Orochimaru's most powerful henchman which would include Kabuto which means he's even stronger than Part 1 Kakashi.  He's also easily above fully transformed Juugo as Kimimaro was able to consistently stop juugo's rampages without any injury.  

so that's the author's intent of a healthy kimimaro: easily above part 1 Kakashi, Kabuto, fully transformed Juugo, and probably around hebi sasuke's level.



U mad bro said:


> Haku speed was never retconned. He was moving at those speeds with his mirrors. He blocked Kakashi raikiri two times not just once. Also he was using his true fighting style. What he did against Sasuke, and Naruto was delay tactics. Nor did he want to kill them.


When I was talking about Haku's speed, I was talking about his non-mirror speed which he used when he first fought wave arc sasuke and then was forced to use the mirrors after sasuke was too fast for him. 
The same non-mirror speed was also what I was talking about when Haku charged oomoi and sai's team, and lee was only able to block haku instead of blitz him.



U mad bro said:


> Also Haku mirrors are ninjutsu. Lee uses straight Taijutsu the sharigan processes both differently. Ninjutsu, and genjutsu is easier. That is the only reason Lee could blitz. His speed is more natural.


sharingan still reads movements regardless of ninjutsu or taijutsu, and lee most definitely was above Sasuke's speed at that time else sasuke wouldn't have gotten blitzed, and it was haku's raw movement speed and not his mirror speed that i was talking about.


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## U mad bro (Apr 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Kimimaro has much greater backstory hype that that.  He was equated by Juugo to be at Hebi Sasuke's calibre, and was hyped to be easily Orochimaru's most powerful henchman which would include Kabuto which means he's even stronger than Part 1 Kakashi.  He's also easily above fully transformed Juugo as Kimimaro was able to consistently stop juugo's rampages without any injury.
> 
> so that's the author's intent of a healthy kimimaro: easily above part 1 Kakashi, Kabuto, fully transformed Juugo, and probably around hebi sasuke's level.


Part 1 kakashi was weak and out shape. This was his own words when climbing that mountain to meet Sasuke. Everyone was several times faster, and of a higher tier after the gap. Kakashi speed was a whole another level faster. Which is where Asuma speed is if you scale with Hidan. Also hebi Sasuke was massively stronger than kimimaro. He had Oro power backing him and his sharigan that could compete with MS. The only thing you could probably argue is being superior to juugo ,and Kabuto. Though it should be noted Kabuto never really flexed his talent back then for himself. He only used it to help Oro. As a matter of fact he didn't really fight. Kimimaro is victim to kishi lack of evidence so it is hard to give him anything to high. He got casually decimated by base Naruto. A clone if I am not mistaken.




> When I was talking about Haku's speed, I was talking about his non-mirror speed which he used when he first fought wave arc sasuke and then was forced to use the mirrors after sasuke was too fast for him.
> 
> The same non-mirror speed was also what I was talking about when Haku charged oomoi and sai's team, and lee was only able to block haku instead of blitz him.


Again that can be easily explained to him holding back. You forget he hit Zabuza with those needles before Kakashi could finish him off. Also the two well known raikiri interceptions. It is clear his true power was on another level. Nevermind he took that beating from kn0 and could still move. So a bit of retcon but not much.



> sharingan still reads movements regardless of ninjutsu or taijutsu, and lee most definitely was above Sasuke's speed at that time else sasuke wouldn't have gotten blitzed, and it was haku's raw movement speed and not his mirror speed that i was talking about.



Oh got you thought you was referring to the mirror. But I also explained that above.


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