# Feat Comparison: Naruto Uzumaki vs Hashirama Senju



## Kyu (May 24, 2014)

Post #5400

__________________________________________________

Pre- Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto

Hashirama at his absolute best


How does Naruto stack up to the 'God of Shinobi'?

*Taijutsu:*
_
Skill -
Brawling - 
Physical Strength - 
Speed - 
Reflexes - 
Durability - 
Resilience - 
_ 
*Ninjutsu*
_
Destructive Capacity  - 
Defensive  - 
Support - 
Casting Speed - 
Efficiency - 
Innovativeness - 
Versatility - 
_
*Genjutsu:*
_
Offense - 
Defense - 
_
*Chakra: *
_
Stamina - 
Chakra control - 
Chakra Reserves - 
_
*Mental: *
_
Tactics - 
Insight - 
Knowledge -   
Mindset - 
_
*Other distinct skills:*
_Weapons - 
Sensing - 
Fūinjutsu - 
Regeneration - 
_

*Spoiler*: _Mine_ 





*Taijutsu:*
_
Skill - Hashirama
Brawling - Naruto
Physical Strength - Naruto
Speed - Naruto
Reflexes - Naruto
Durability - Naruto
Resilience - Naruto
_ 
*Ninjutsu*
_
Destructive Capacity  - Naruto
Defensive  - Hashirama
Support - Naruto
Casting Speed - Equal
Efficiency - Hashirama
Innovativeness - Naruto
Versatility - Equal
_
*Genjutsu:*
_
Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Naruto
_
*Chakra: *
_
Stamina - Equal
Chakra control - Naruto
Chakra Reserves - Hashirama by a hair
_
*Mental: *
_
Tactics - Naruto
Insight - Hashirama
Knowledge - Hashirama  
Mindset - Equal
_
*Other distinct skills:*
_Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama
Regeneration - Hashirama_

*Naruto:* 13
*Hashirama:* 10
*Equal:* 4


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## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

*Taijutsu:*
_
Skill - *Naruto. We have barely seen anything from Hashirama, to  put him any where near Naruto's*
Brawling - *Not, sure what do you mean by that. @>@*
Physical Strength - *Naruto obviously, he have yet to shaw that he can throw Kurama as a cat.*
Speed - *Naruto, he was compared to Minato, enough said.*
Reflexes - *Naruto without a doubt.*
Durability - *Naruto as well, Hashirama has not shown to survive felling on a sharp rocks without a scratch.*
Resilience - *Naruto again, Hashirama has not shown anything better than Naruto. *
_ 


*Ninjutsu*
_
Destructive Capacity  - *Naruto, if he used charged TBB, otherwise Hashirama if he used his Buddha.*
Defensive  -* Naruto, Hashirama has yet to show Naruto's feat of defending against the Juubi's TBB*. 
Support - *Naruto, his transferring chakra ability which can even heal is second to none. *
Casting Speed - *Naruto, he fired off 5 TBBs against the Juubi in 1 second or so. *
Efficiency - *Naruto, he's always compared to the others with being superior to them. *
Innovativeness - *Naruto, see how many rassengans he created and how he learned to use them.*
Versatility - *Naruto as well, he can create rasengans on his Avatar tails without even clones or anything.*

_
*Genjutsu:*
_
Offense - Hashirama, he has a juts at least, Naruto has nothing.
Defense -  Naruto, he's a host, and a great sensor as well. 
_

*Chakra: *
_
Stamina - *Naruto, Hashirama's chakra was comparable to BM Naruto, however BSM Naruto has more than him.*
Chakra control - *Naruto as well, he was notice to have surpassed Minato with that, so that's enough to put him above Hashirama in this regard*
Chakra Reserves - *The same thing as stamina*
_


*Mental: *
_
Tactics - *Naruto, we have seen nothing from Hashirama in that regard.*
Insight - *Naruto as well.*
Knowledge -* Naruto, he has met all kind of people with different abilities, more than Hashirama did  *
Mindset - *Naruto.*

_
*Other distinct skills:*
_Weapons - Hashirama, we barely see Naruto use those things.
Sensing - Naruto by a landscape. 
Fūinjutsu - No one, both suck at it, until RM Naruto. 
Regeneration - about equal, or Hashirama. 
_


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 24, 2014)

Taijutsu:

Skill - Hashirama
Brawling - Naruto
Physical Strength - Naruto
Speed - Naruto
Reflexes - Naruto
Durability - Naruto
Resilience - Naruto

Ninjutsu

Destructive Capacity - Naruto
Defensive - Hashirama
Support - could go either way
Casting Speed - could go either way, but Hashirama takes it due to Naruto lag with a lot of techniques
Efficiency - Hashirama
Innovativeness - Naruto
Versatility - Naruto

Genjutsu:

Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Hashirama, but Naruto can break out of them better

Chakra: 

Stamina - Naruto
Chakra control - Naruto due to his feat with giving everyone shrouds
Chakra Reserves - Naruto

Mental: 

Tactics - Naruto
Insight - Hashirama
Knowledge - Hashirama
Mindset - Hashirama

Other distinct skills:
Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Shukaku Rasengan should be above Hashirama, Hashirama is stronger with barriers though
Regeneration - could go either way, but probably Hashirama based on what Madara stated and Edo


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## Cognitios (May 24, 2014)

Oh mai, this gonna be good. Make more of these pls.
Taijutsu:

Skill - Naruto, Frog Kumite puts him here
Brawling - Naruto, more feats and goes in CQC more
Physical Strength - I want to say Naruto, but I just haven't seen enough from Hashirama
Speed - Naruto, no contest
Reflexes -  Naruto with SM
Durability - Naruto, taken more direct hits
Resilience - Draw, 24 hours from Hashirama, Naruto also has similar feats


Ninjutsu

Destructive Capacity - Hashirama, Buddha
Defensive - Hashirama, wooden structures that tank PS slashes, and Rashoman
Support - Hashirama, medical ninjutsu + defensive support
Casting Speed - Naruto, no seals for most of his jutsu
Efficiency - Hashirama, Naruto sitll can't do 1 handed Rasengan
Innovativeness - Naruto, FRS and clone creativity
Versatility - Hashirama, Naruto only has rasengan and clones, 


Genjutsu:

Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Naruto, perfect Jin status only puts him here


Chakra: 

Stamina - Draw, Tobirama statement
Chakra control - Hashirama
Chakra Reserves - Draw, Tobirama statement


Mental: 

Tactics - Naruto, at least early part 1
Insight - Hashirama, no need to explain
Knowledge - Hashirama, many years of experience
Mindset - Hashirama, more level headed


Other distinct skills:
Weapons - Hashirama, on par with Madara
Sensing - Naruto, emotion sensing
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama, at least able to supress Bijuu, more than Naruto has shown
Regeneration - Hashirama, that Tsunade statement


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## Bonly (May 24, 2014)

*Taijutsu:*
_
Skill -
Brawling - 
Physical Strength - 
Speed - 
Reflexes - 
Durability - 
Resilience - 
_ 

All of Taijutsu goes to Naruto. Hashi has barely showed anything in Taijutsu to suggest he's better then Naruto in this pure Taijutsu only part during this *FEATS comparison*


*Ninjutsu*
_
Destructive Capacity  - Hashi
Defensive  - Tie
Support - Naruto
Casting Speed - Tie
Efficiency - Tie
Innovativeness - Naruto
Versatility - Tie
_


*Genjutsu:*
_
Offense - Hashi
Defense - Naruto
_


*Chakra: *
_
Stamina - Hashi
Chakra control - Tie 
Chakra Reserves - Hashi
_


*Mental: *
_
Tactics - Naruto
Insight - Hashi
Knowledge - Hashi  
Mindset - Tie
_


*Other distinct skills:*
_Weapons - Tie
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Hashi
Regeneration - Tie
_

Hashi: 7
Naruto: 11
Tie: 8


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## Vice (May 24, 2014)

Bonly said:


> *Chakra: *
> _
> Stamina - Hashi
> Chakra control - Tie
> ...



Whaaaaaaaat?


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 24, 2014)

likewise why would Hashirama be above Naruto in DC especially after that multi BB Rasenshuriken


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## Vice (May 24, 2014)

Taijutsu:

Skill - Hashirama
Brawling - Naruto
Physical Strength - Naruto
Speed - Naruto
Reflexes - Naruto
Durability - Naruto
Resilience - Naruto

Ninjutsu

Destructive Capacity - Naruto
Defensive - Hashirama
Support - Naruto
Casting Speed - Hashirama
Efficiency - Hashirama
Innovativeness - Naruto
Versatility - Hashirama

Genjutsu:

Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Naruto

Chakra: 

Stamina - Naruto
Chakra control - Naruto
Chakra Reserves - Naruto

Mental: 

Tactics - Hashirama
Insight - Hashirama
Knowledge - Hashirama
Mindset - Hashirama

Other distinct skills:
Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama
Regeneration -Naruto


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 24, 2014)

*Taijutsu*

Skill - Hashirama
Brawling - Hashirama
Physical Strength - Hashirama
Speed - Naruto
Reflexes - Hashirama
Durability - Tie
Resilience - Tie

*Ninjutsu*

Destructive Capacity - Tie
Defensive - Hashirama
Support - Naruto
Casting Speed - Tie
Efficiency - Hashirama
Innovativeness - Tie
Versatility - Hashirama

*Genjutsu*

Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Naruto

*Chakra*

Stamina - Hashirama
Chakra Control - Hashirama
Chakra Reserves - Hashirama

*Mental*

Tactics - Naruto
Insight - Hashirama
Knowledge - Hashirama
Mindset - Hashirama

*Other distinct skills*

Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama
Regeneration - Hashirama

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Psp123789 (May 24, 2014)

Taijutsu:

Skill -Naruto
Brawling - Naruto
Physical Strength - Naruto
Speed - Naruto
Reflexes - Naruto
Durability - Naruto
Resilience - Naruto

Ninjutsu

Destructive Capacity - Naruto
Defensive - Hashirama
Support - Naruto
Casting Speed - Tie
Efficiency - Naruto
Innovativeness - Naruto
Versatility - Naruto

Genjutsu:

Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Naruto

Chakra: 

Stamina - Tie
Chakra control - Naruto
Chakra Reserves - Tie

Mental: 

Tactics - Hashirama
Insight - Hashirama
Knowledge - Hashirama
Mindset - Tie

Other distinct skills:
Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama
Regeneration - Hashirama


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2014)

*Taijutsu:*
_
Skill - Naruto. Frog Katas and actual showings
Brawling - Naruto
Physical Strength - Naruto 
Speed - Naruto, compared directly to Minato
Reflexes - Naruto, compared directly to Minato
Durability - Naruto
Resilience - Naruto
_ 
*Ninjutsu*
_
Destructive Capacity  - Tie. Super Bijudama and Shinsusenju should be about equal
Defensive  - Naruto. Tanking the V1 Juubi Bijudama is above anything Hashirama's done 
Support - Naruto, can support an entire army while Hashirama can't by powering them all up
Casting Speed - Naruto
Efficiency - Hashirama, he can do a lot with his Mokuton
Innovativeness - Naruto, Futon: Rasenshuriken and his Kage Bushin tactics
Versatility - Tie, both are equal in this area
_
*Genjutsu:*
_
Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Naruto
_
*Chakra: *
_
Stamina - Tie
Chakra control - Naruto 
Chakra Reserves - Tie
_
*Mental: *
_
Tactics - Naruto, he's shown far more inventive tactics than Hashirama has
Insight - Hashirama, he has greater insight due to greater experience
Knowledge -  Hashirama, advanced age benefit
Mindset - Tie
_
*Other distinct skills:*
_Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama
Regeneration - Tie
_


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## Veracity (May 24, 2014)

Skill - Hashirama 
Brawling - Tie
Physical Strength - Hashirama based on Madara's casual Bjuii toss feat.
Speed - Naruto 
Reflexes - Hashirama( Tobirama blindside feat)
Durability - Tie
Resilience - IDK.
[/I] 
*Ninjutsu*
_
Destructive Capacity  - Tie. 
Defensive  - Tie
Support -  Naruto 
Casting Speed - Hashirama 
Efficiency - Hashirama 
Innovativeness - Hashirama 
Versatility - Tie
_
*Genjutsu:*
_
Offense - Hashirama 
Defense - Naruto 
_
*Chakra: *
_
Stamina - Tie
Chakra control - Hashirama 
Chakra Reserves - Tie
_
*Mental: *
_
Tactics - Tie( refer to Naruto vs Zabuza and Hashirama vs Madara)
Insight - Hashirama 
Knowledge -   Hashirama 
Mindset - Hashirama 
_
*Other distinct skills:*
_Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto 
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama 
Regeneration - Hashirama.
_


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## trance (May 24, 2014)

*Taijutsu:*
_
Skill - Naruto
Brawling - Naruto
Physical Strength - Naruto
Speed - Naruto
Reflexes - Tie
Durability - Naruto
Resilience - Naruto
_ 
*Ninjutsu*
_
Destructive Capacity  - Hashirama
Defensive  - Hashirama
Support - Naruto
Casting Speed - Naruto
Efficiency - Naruto
Innovativeness - Naruto
Versatility - Naruto
_
*Genjutsu:*
_
Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Hashirama
_
*Chakra: *
_
Stamina - Tie
Chakra control - Naruto
Chakra Reserves - Tie
_
*Mental: *
_
Tactics - Naruto
Insight - Hashirama
Knowledge - Hashirama
Mindset - Hashirama
_
*Other distinct skills:*
_Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama
Regeneration - Hashirama
_

_*Total*_
Naruto: 14
Hashirama: 10
Tie: 3


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## ARGUS (May 24, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Post #5400
> 
> __________________________________________________
> 
> ...



*Taijutsu:*
_
Skill - Hashirama
Brawling - Naruto
Physical Strength -  Naruto
Speed - Naruto
Reflexes - Hashirama
Durability - Hashirama
Resilience - Naruto

*Ninjutsu*

Destructive Capacity  - Hashirama 
Defensive  - Hashirama
Support - Naruto
Casting Speed - Naruto
Efficiency - Naruto
Innovativeness - Hashirama
Versatility - Hashirama
_
*Genjutsu:*
_
Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Tie/Naruto
_
*Chakra: *
_
Stamina - Hashirama
Chakra control - Hashirama
Chakra Reserves - Hashirama if kyuubi is not counted,, otherwise naruto
_
*Mental: *
_
Tactics - Naruto
Insight - Hashirama
Knowledge -   Hashirama
Mindset - Hashirama


*Other distinct skills:*
Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto 
Fūinjutsu - Tie
Regeneration - Hashirama

*Naruto:* 10
*Hashirama:* 15
*Equal:* 3_


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## Kyu (May 24, 2014)

I view their regeneration among the best(second solely to the Juubi & its Jins). Naruto regenerated a lung back when he barely had any control of Kurama's chakra.

As a perfect Jinchuuriki his regen should be on a *far* higher level.

and iirc Hashirama has access to a self-rejuvenating jutsu on par, if not superior to _Byakugo_ in certain aspects. 



> likewise why would Hashirama be above Naruto in DC especially after that multi BB Rasenshuriken



_BDRS_ was done by RSM Naruto.

Biju Sage Naruto could probably perform the technique too, but lets just stick to pre-rikudo feats.



ARGUS said:


> Chakra Reserves - _Hashirama if kyuubi is not counted, otherwise naruto_



Why wouldn't the fox be counted? Kurama is Naruto's power.


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## ARGUS (May 24, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Why wouldn't the fox be counted? Kurama is Naruto's power.


Then i guess the two of the tied ones would go to naruto


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## Ghost (May 24, 2014)

Is this BSM Naruto?

Taijutsu:

Skill - Naruto
Brawling - Naruto
Physical Strength - Naruto
Speed - Naruto
Reflexes - Tie
Durability - Naruto
Resilience - Tie

Ninjutsu

Destructive Capacity - Naruto
Defensive - Hashirama
Support - Naruto
Casting Speed - Naruto
Efficiency - 
Innovativeness - Naruto
Versatility - Tie

Genjutsu:

Offense - 
Defense - 

Chakra: 

Stamina - Tie
Chakra control - Naruto. Maybe tie.
Chakra Reserves - Naruto

Mental: 

Tactics - Naruto
Insight - Hashirama
Knowledge - Hashirama
Mindset - Tie

Other distinct skills:
Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Tie
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama
Regeneration - Tie


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## Panther (May 24, 2014)

*Taijutsu*:

*Skill* - Naruto.
*Brawling* - Naruto. 
*Physical Strength* - Naruto. 
*Speed* - Naruto.
*Reflexes* - Naruto
*Durability* - Naruto
*Resilience* - Naruto

*Ninjutsu*:

*Destructive Capacity* - Naruto.
*Defensive* - Naruto
*Support* - Naruto
*Casting Speed* - Tie
*Efficiency* - Hashirama
*Innovativeness* - Naruto 
*Versatility* - Tie

*Genjutsu*:

*Offense* - Hashirama
*Defense* - Naruto

*Chakra*:

*Stamina* - Tie 
*Chakra control* - Naruto
*Chakra Reserves* - Tie

*Mental*: 

*Tactics* - Naruto.
*Insight* - Tie
*Knowledge* - Hashirama
*Mindset* - Tie

*Other distinct skills*:

*Weapons* - Hashirama
*Sensing* - Naruto. 
*Fūinjutsu* - Hashirama
*Regeneration * Tie

Naruto: 15
Hashirama: 5
Tie: 7


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 24, 2014)

*Taijutsu:*
_
Skill - Hashirama.
Brawling - Hashirama.
Physical Strength - Hashirama.
Speed - Hashirama.
Reflexes - Hashirama.
Durability - Hashirama.
Resilience - Hashirama.
_ 
*Ninjutsu*
_
Destructive Capacity  - Hashirama.
Defensive  - Hashirama.
Support - Hashirama.
Casting Speed - Hashirama.
Efficiency - Hashirama.
Innovativeness - Hashirama.
Versatility - Hashirama.
_
*Genjutsu:*
_
Offense - Hashirama.
Defense - Hashirama.
_
*Chakra: *
_
Stamina - Hashirama.
Chakra control - Hashirama.
Chakra Reserves - Hashirama.
_
*Mental: *
_
Tactics - Hashirama.
Insight - Hashirama.
Knowledge -   Hashirama.
Mindset - Hashirama.
_
*Other distinct skills:*
_Weapons - Hashirama.
Sensing - Ino.
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama.
Regeneration - Hashirama.
_

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Atlantic Storm (May 24, 2014)

> Naruto as well, Hashirama has not shown to survive felling on a sharp rocks without a scratch.



I can't tell if you're serious here.



> likewise why would Hashirama be above Naruto in DC especially after that multi BB Rasenshuriken



Check the opening post. This is Naruto before his new power up.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 24, 2014)

Show me a scan of Hashirama surviving a fall on sharp rocks AS.

That's right, you can't.


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## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I can't tell if you're serious here.



why I wouldn't be?
can you tell me Hashirama's great feat that is better than Naruto's?


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## Atlantic Storm (May 24, 2014)

Do you legitimately think Hashirama would get wounded from falling on top of a bunch of sharp rocks or that he's less durable than a newly crowned sennin Naruto?


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## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

Yes. His SM has not shown any sign to be as durable as Naruto's, quite the opposite actually.  like when Sasuke
attacked madara with his sword, without even charging it with any kind of chakra, he cut through madara easily. 

When Nagato attacked Naruto with his black rods, Naruto destroyed them without any effort, and Nagato couldn't
control Naruto either, and the black rods barely were able to go through his body. On the other hand Hashirama
was not able to accomplish the same feat against Madara.

and before you say "oh, but madara is way stronger than Nagato" it does not matter, as Hashirama was way stronger than Naruto as well.

He simply did not show any feats, or even any sign of such durability. Nor does he have any hype either...

Edit: notice that also was only SM Naruto, so BSM Naruto is clearly way more durable than that...


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## Necessary Evil (May 24, 2014)

So, it seems that rocks are the weakness of Senju as well, that's quite interesting.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 24, 2014)

*Taijutsu:*
Skill - Hashirama
Brawling - Hashirama
Physical Strength - Hashirama
Speed - Naruto
Reflexes - Naruto
Durability - Hashirama
Resilience - Hashirama


*Ninjutsu*
Destructive Capacity  - Hashirama
Defensive  - Tie
Support - Naruto
Casting Speed - Naruto
Efficiency - Hashirama
Innovativeness - Naruto
Versatility - Naruto


*Genjutsu:*
Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Naruto


*Chakra: *
Stamina - Hashirama
Chakra control - Hashirama
Chakra Reserves - Naruto

*Mental: *
Tactics - Naruto
Insight - Hashirama
Knowledge -  Hashirama
Mindset - Hashirama (?)

*Other distinct skills:*
Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama
Regeneration - Hashirama​​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2014)

Where has Hashirama EVER displayed superior taijutsu skill over Naruto? Or superior durability? What feats? And where does Hashirama have superior physical strength?


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 24, 2014)

It really isn't


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## Jagger (May 24, 2014)

I was going to use a list similar to PoW, but nah.

Taijutsu:

Skill - Naruto.
Brawling - Naruto.
Physical Strength - Naruto.
Speed - Naruto.
Reflexes - Tie.
Durability - Tie, I guess. 
Resilience - Naruto.

This area pretty much goes for Naruto since Hashirama lacks feats. We could escalate some things here and there, but Naruto has an overwhelming number of feats here.

Ninjutsu

Destructive Capacity - I'm going for a tie here. Hashirama's Shinsuusenju destroyed Madara's KyuSusano'O while Naruto matched the power of a giant Bijuudama with one he barely charged and that was happened around the moment he used Bijuu Mode for the first time and this thread specifically talks about a Naruto enhanced by both Senjutsu and the Kyuubi's chakra.
Defensive - Hashirama.
Support - Naruto (chakra transfer).
Casting Speed - Both are pretty fast, so it's a tie.
Efficiency - Tie.
Innovativeness - Naruto.
Versatility - Naruto.

Genjutsu:

Offense - Hashirama.
Defense - Naruto.

Chakra: 

Stamina - Tie.
Chakra control - Naruto.
Chakra Reserves - Naruto.

Mental: 

Tactics - Tie.
Insight - Hashirama.
Knowledge - Tie. Hashirama lived far longer than Naruto has and while the latter has fought all kind of shinobi, so did Hashirama. Though, it seems Naruto has more knowledge about the Rinnegan.
Mindset - Hashirama.

Other distinct skills:
Weapons - Hashirama.
Sensing - Naruto.
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama.
Regeneration - Tie.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2014)

Not to mention Senpo: Bijudama or Cho Bijudama should be as strong or stronger than Choju Kebetsu.


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## Kyu (May 24, 2014)

Nice list Jag.




> Is this BSM Naruto?


Affirmative.




			
				GT said:
			
		

> *Taijutsu:*
> _
> Skill - Hashirama
> Brawling - Hashirama
> ...





> *Chakra control - Hashirama*


I'd love if someone could elaborate on how Hashi has superior chakra control and physical prowess.

Genuinely curious.


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## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

-snip- should know that Naruto is better at him with chakra control, kishi spent
so much time on that. 
deep that hole is

It's really that simple.


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## Cognitios (May 24, 2014)

> I'd love if someone could elaborate on how Hashi has superior chakra control and physical prowess.
> 
> Genuinely curious.


Superior Chakra control comes from the fact that Naruto is still unable to make a rasengan without a clone, chakra arms, or something helping him with it.
As for the whole taijutsu thing, the only thing that can really be scaled to him is EMS Madara, thus EMS Madara is pretty much what Hashirama can do or something similar to it. Hashirama taijutsu = EMS Madara taijutsu.


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## Cognitios (May 24, 2014)

> Anyone who's not a Hashirama fanboy should know that Naruto is better at him with chakra control, kishi spent
> so much time on that.
> deep that hole is
> 
> It's really that simple.


That chakra sharing thing is not as much chakra control, but intuitiveness.
If naruto had such great chakra control he wouldn't need 2+ hands for a rasengan.


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## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> That chakra sharing thing is not as much chakra control, but intuitiveness.
> If naruto had such great chakra control he wouldn't need 2+ hands for a rasengan.



which he can do because his control over his chakra is perfect. 
Even Sasuke stated that directly, I do not even know how something obvious like this
can be argued. 

viz translation: chapter 645  
Sasuke: " This is Naruto now? with *perfect* control over this much chakra?"

I mean what can poor kishi possibly say clearer than that?  

Rasengan is consider as one hard jutsu to begin with, you're just downplaying the jutsu. U_U


----------



## Vice (May 24, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Superior Chakra control comes from the fact that Naruto is still unable to make a rasengan without a clone, chakra arms, or something helping him with it.
> As for the whole taijutsu thing, the only thing that can really be scaled to him is EMS Madara, thus EMS Madara is pretty much what Hashirama can do or something similar to it. Hashirama taijutsu = EMS Madara taijutsu.



Yet he can distribute the Kyuubi's chakra to mold perfectly with pretty much everyone in the alliance.


----------



## Cognitios (May 24, 2014)

> which he can do because his control over his chakra is perfect.
> Even Sasuke stated that directly, I do not even know how something obvious like this
> can be argued.


If Naruto's chakra control is perfect why is he unable to make a rasengan without making a clone?


> viz translation: chapter 645
> Sasuke: " This is Naruto now? with perfect control over this much chakra?"


Granted, but that doesn't mean Sasuke's wrong and it could also be intuition


> I mean what can poor kishi possibly say clearer than that?
> 
> Rasengan is consider as one hard jutsu to begin with, you're just downplaying the jutsu. U_U


Yes because Konohomaru has more chakra control than Hashirama.


----------



## Kyu (May 24, 2014)

> If Naruto's chakra control is perfect why is he unable to make a rasengan without making a clone?





> If naruto had such great chakra control he wouldn't need 2+ hands for a rasengan.




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Cognitios (May 24, 2014)

Kyu said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Okay, that is enough to sway me.
The only thing that was holding Naruto behind Hashirama was the rasengan argument.
Now I admit Naruto > Hashirama in the chakra control department.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> If Naruto's chakra control is perfect why is he unable to make a rasengan without making a clone?
> 
> Granted, but that doesn't mean Sasuke's wrong and it could also be intuition
> 
> Yes because Konohomaru has more chakra control than Hashirama.



if Hashirama is better than Naruto  why can't he use SM with his clones like Naruto? 

anyway, no offence, but I would rather to take what was clearly stated in the manga. U_U


----------



## Cognitios (May 24, 2014)

> if Hashirama is better than Naruto why can't he use SM with his clones like Naruto?
> 
> anyway, no offence, but I would rather to take what was clearly stated in the manga. U_U


Hashirama is better at SM because he can get in it faster, almost in an instant.
The faster you get in SM the better you are at it, the clones thing was inventiveness on Naruto's part, anyone can do it as long as you can get into SM. But the faster you can get into SM the better you are at it, that was stated in the manga, the clones was an invention by naruto to get around his kyuubi problem, it has nothing about his skill in SM.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Hashirama is better at SM because he can get in it faster, almost in an instant.
> The faster you get in SM the better you are at it, the clones thing was inventiveness on Naruto's part, anyone can do it as long as you can get into SM. But the faster you can get into SM the better you are at it, that was stated in the manga, the clones was an invention by naruto to get around his kyuubi problem, it has nothing about his skill in SM.



Minato entered his SM in one panel, yet he's worst than them at it.  

Hashirama's clones can't enter his SM, which is also obvious. Naruto showed better durability, sensing, taijutsu, and usage of SM than Hashirama. Even he entered his SM really fast against Iruka and it was actually stated that in his BM he can use SM even faster as shown in chapter 645. U_U

He even was able to damage v2 obito, unlike Hashirama who couldn't do anything to v1 obito. U_U


----------



## Jagger (May 24, 2014)

Both Hashirama and Naruto have shown to enter Sage Mode pretty quickly. I'd consider it a tie and, if you're not satisfied with this answer, I'd put Naruto, but just by a small margin.

They've both mastered the Senjutsu arts pretty well. The reason of why SM Hashirama is vastly more powerful than SM Naruto is because the former was already stronger than the latter in their base form. Senjutsu just enhances the user's abilities.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

I agree. I even explained that to him before, but oh well...


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 24, 2014)

It makes no sense as to how Minato could use Sage Mode, let alone better than Jiraiya. Kishi just randomly threw it in


----------



## Jagger (May 24, 2014)

It's Kishi for you. 

Specially how Minato never hinted himself about usage of Sage Mode.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 24, 2014)

I don't think the toads knew anything of it either


----------



## Veracity (May 24, 2014)

Hashirama wasn't able to create sage clones because he was an Edo and his power was already weakened, on top of focusing on a Juubi barrier and creating god gates. Not to mention the unconventional method Naruto needs to create Kage Bunshin IIRC(probably wrong). 

Hashirama is also physically stronger then base Naruto. EMS Madara had enough power and strength to blitz and lift sage Naruto off his god damn feat near casually. Sage Madara( just as physically strong as alive sage Hashirama) was able to toss the complete Bjuii on their ass. 

Madara also relying solely on  his sage sencing was able to casually dodge a blindside Tobirama attack( fastest hand speed of anyone not god level), 

Sage Hashirama> Sage Naruto in physical strength, reactions, movement speed.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

> [=Likes boss;50748731]Hashirama wasn't able to create sage clones because he was an Edo and his power was already weakened, on top of focusing on a Juubi barrier and creating god gates. Not to mention the unconventional method Naruto needs to create Kage Bunshin IIRC(probably wrong).



when was stated that he can't do that because of him being edo? Or when it was even hinted? 


> Hashirama is also physically stronger then base Naruto. EMS Madara had enough power and strength to blitz and lift sage Naruto off his god damn feat near casually. Sage Madara( just as physically strong as alive sage Hashirama) was able to toss the complete Bjuii on their ass.


That same madara who fodderstomped Hashirama after that with 1 second? Yeah sure. 


> Madara also relying solely on  his sage sending was able to casually dodge a blindside Tobirama attack( fastest hand speed of anyone not god level),


Can you put the scan that proves that he was relying on SM?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Hashirama wasn't able to create sage clones because he was an Edo and his power was already weakened, on top of focusing on a Juubi barrier and creating god gates. Not to mention the unconventional method Naruto needs to create Kage Bunshin IIRC(probably wrong).


Mokuton Bushins are unable to become Sage Mode regardless, they aren't perfect clones of the user like Kage Bushin. The only advantage they have is they are more durable.


> Hashirama is also physically stronger then base Naruto. EMS Madara had enough power and strength to blitz and lift sage Naruto off his god damn feat near casually. Sage Madara( just as physically strong as alive sage Hashirama) was able to toss the complete Bjuii on their ass.


1. Sage Naruto blocked and was uninjured. Being thrown off your feet by someone doesn't make said person physically stronger than the other.
2. Sage Madara didn't do SHIT against the Biju. He never 'tossed them around'. One-Eyed Rinnegan Madara did with Limbo, NOT any Sage Mode strength which Naruto displayed.


> Madara also relying solely on  his sage sencing was able to casually dodge a blindside Tobirama attack( fastest hand speed of anyone not god level),


And Naruto who could sense _countries away with perfect clarity_ with normal Sage Mode can't do the same thing?


> Sage Hashirama> Sage Naruto in physical strength, reactions, movement speed.


Not at all. Sage Hashirama lacks physical feats, reaction feats, and movement speed. Stop applying (or downright stating falsehoods) Sage Madara's feats to him.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (May 24, 2014)

Sage Hashirama was fighting toe to toe with Madara the entire time Obito was fighting everybody else. This is the same Madara who was able to quite casually intercept Naruto's attempt at speed-blitzing him, albeit, without sage mode.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Sage Hashirama was fighting toe to toe with Madara the entire duration of the Obito vs. Naruto and Sasuke fight. This is the same Madara who was able to quite casually intercept Naruto's attempt at speed-blitzing him, albeit, without sage mode.



they were fighting with nin-jutsu. Madara's feat are not Hashi's. Not to mention that RT madara fodderized Hashirama as well.

Now, are MS Obito, or base Kakashi as good as 8th Gai in taijutsu and speed, because they were fighting him?  

was KCM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Tobirama, and Minato each of them as powerful as JJ obito
and have his feats because they were fighting him?

Hiruzen's clones are stronger than Tobirama and Hashirama because they fodderized them?


----------



## Atlantic Storm (May 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> they were fighting with nin-jutsu. Madara's feat are not Hashi's.



They were fighting with ninjutsu for a bit, yeah, but after the God Tree came out, the two were clashing with taijutsu the entire time.



> Not to mention that RT madara fodderized Hashirama as well.



Madara stuck the black chakra rods in Hashirama's back towards the end of his time as an edo tensei, but even at that point, Hashirama managed to outmaneuver and trap him. I think they pretty much stalemated each other: Madara was trapped by Hashirama, but the latter couldn't move either because he had the disruptor rods sin his back. 



> Now, is MS Obito, or base Kakashi are as good as 8th Gai in taijutsu and speed, because they were fighting him?



Neither of them were fighting him, so I'm not sure what your point here is.



> was KCM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Tobirama, and Minato each of them as powerful as JJ obito
> and have his feats because they were fighting him?



None of them, individually, kept up with Obito. Hashirama was fighting with Madara on equal terms.


----------



## jorge2060 88 (May 24, 2014)

Taijutsu
Skill - hashirama (fought against madara many times always presenting to be around the same level of skill, and we saw how well naruto fared against the same opponent).
Brawling - hashirama (same as above)
Physical Strength - naruto (not enough feats from hashirama)
Speed - naruto
Reflexes - hashirama (sm naruto got kicked to the ground by a blind madara)
Durability - hashirama (tsunade healing was said to be inferior to hashirama's by madara) 
Resilience - hashirama (same reason as above)

Ninjutsu

Destructive Capacity - hashirama (giant buda combo punch overcame susanoo sworded bijju dama barrage from 100% kyubii/madara)
Defensive - hashirama (capable of creating a wood shield that tanks biju damas without damage + capable of summoning 5 ranshomon gates that redirected a susanoo sworded biju dama)
Support - naruto (chakra transfer)
Casting Speed - tie (naruto does not need seals but takes some time to charge his jutsus)
Efficiency - tie
Innovativeness - hashirama (almost all of naruto jutsus are rasengan variations)
Versatility - hashirama (same as above + hashirama is very far from being a one trick phony)

Genjutsu:

Offense - hashirama (naruto never casted a single genjutsu)
Defense - naruto (naruto for having the kyubii)

Chakra: 

Stamina - tie
Chakra control - tie
Chakra Reserves - tie (naruto + kyubii = hashirama as stated in the manga)

Mental: 

Tactics - hashirama (outsmarted madara with a bushin feint)
Insight - naruto (naruto is pretty insightful figured out how to beat the third raikage, hashirama does not have a lot of feats here) 
Knowledge - hashirama ( has more knowledge on techniques and of the ninja world due to living in a time where he was constanly in wars and for opperating as a kage for a long time)
Mindset - hashirama ( naruto had his resolve broken many times in the manga)

Other distinct skills:
Weapons - hashirama (was shown utilizing a variety of weapons when fighting madara)
Sensing - naruto
Fūinjutsu - hashirama (capable of taming all of the bijuu's)
Regeneration - hashirama (better than tsunade)

Conclusion:
Hashirma - 16
Naruto - 6
Tie - 5


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## Trojan (May 24, 2014)

> =Atlantic Storm;50749027]They were fighting with ninjutsu for a bit, yeah, but after the God Tree came out, the two were clashing with taijutsu the entire time.


and guess what? 
Hashirama had 6 rods on his back. On the other hand madara was not shown to be damaged by tools or anything like that. Why was not Hashirama able to dodge Madara's attacks those 6 times? 

If he is so great that he can dodge FTG speed, shouldn't it be easier to dodge Madara's speed? 


> Madara stuck the black chakra rods in Hashirama's back towards the end of his time as an edo tensei, but even at that point, Hashirama managed to outmaneuver and trap him. I think they pretty much stalemated each other: Madara was trapped by Hashirama, but the latter couldn't move either because he had the disruptor rods sin his back.


good, so Hashirama had to use ninjutsu because he was outclassed in taijutsu? 
also, regardless of that, the point is that madara did indeed attack SM Naruto, but that can't be against Naruto, when madara suffered more than that. It's not like if it did much to Naruto anyway...


> Neither of them were fighting him, so I'm not sure what your point here is.


The point is Hashirama was not fighting RT madara either, so why does RT Madara's feats are given to Hashirama, but Not Gai's feat to the others? 

Hashirama was Madara's rival? So was Gai to Kakashi since their childhood. 


> None of them, individually, kept up with Obito. Hashirama was fighting with Madara on equal terms


on equal term when madara was edo, but when RT madara came out, he fodderstopmed Hashirama in 1 second, and he became even more powerful when he stole Hashi's SM

so, those feats are not from Hashi's abilities alone, but the combined power of BOTH of their powers.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 24, 2014)

jorge2060 88 said:


> Taijutsu
> Skill - hashirama (fought against madara many times always presenting to be around the same level of skill, and we saw how well naruto fared against the same opponent).
> Brawling - hashirama (same as above)


And Naruto did...what exactly wrong against Madara? He reacted and blocked.


> Reflexes - hashirama (sm naruto got kicked to the ground by a blind madara)


Naruto clearly blocked.

And Naruto has the feats of reacting to V2 A and reacting to Sandaime Raikage.


> Durability - hashirama (tsunade healing was said to be inferior to hashirama's by madara)


Hashirama used medical ninjutsu, not a taijutsu feat. And Tsunade's Byakugou is on the same level from Madara himself.


> Resilience - hashirama (same reason as above)


You're using medical ninjutsu as a taijutsu feat.



> Destructive Capacity - hashirama (giant buda combo punch overcame susanoo sworded bijju dama barrage from 100% kyubii/madara)


And Naruto can cut through Juubi tails with his Rasenshuriken, create Shinsusenju sized Odama Rasenshuriken, and his Senpo: Bijudama and Chou Bijudama are on the same level if not higher than Hashirama.


> Defensive - hashirama (capable of creating a wood shield that tanks biju damas without damage + capable of summoning 5 ranshomon gates that redirected a susanoo sworded biju dama)


Naruto blocked a V1 Juubi Bijudama beam. That trumps Hashirama's defensive feats.


> Innovativeness - hashirama (almost all of naruto jutsus are rasengan variations)
> Versatility - hashirama (same as above + hashirama is very far from being a one trick phony)


Isn't Mokuton the definition of a one-trick pony? Rasengan and its variations are used inventively and innovatingly throughout the series.



> Tactics - hashirama (outsmarted madara with a bushin feint)


The same tactic Naruto uses on a regular basis? 


> Mindset - hashirama ( naruto had his resolve broken many times in the manga)


Only once.

Stop underrating Naruto.


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## jorge2060 88 (May 24, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Naruto did...what exactly wrong against Madara? He reacted and blocked.
> 
> Naruto clearly blocked.
> 
> ...



Kind Sir please wait until i can properly reply to your post. Currently I am stuck with my iphone so i can't link the panels that support the points I made.


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## babaGAReeb (May 24, 2014)

im pretty sure hashiramas feet are bigger since hes an adult


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## Genma1998 (May 24, 2014)

Taijutsu:

Skill - Naruto
Brawling - Naruto
Physical Strength - Naruto
Speed - Naruto
Reflexes - Naruto
Durability - Naruto
Resilience - Naruto

Ninjutsu

Destructive Capacity - Naruto
Defensive - Hashirama
Support - Hashirama
Casting Speed - Naruto
Efficiency - Tie
Innovativeness - Naruto
Versatility - Naruto

Genjutsu:

Offense - Hashirama
Defense - Naruto (Bijuu's and such)

Chakra: 

Stamina - Naruto
Chakra control - Naruto
Chakra Reserves - Naruto

Mental: 

Tactics - Naruto
Insight - Naruto
Knowledge - Hashirama
Mindset - Naruto

Other distinct skills:
Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama
Regeneration - Hashirama




Naruto - 19
Hashirama - 7
tie - 1


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## Jagger (May 24, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Sage Hashirama was fighting toe to toe with Madara the entire time Obito was fighting everybody else. This is the same Madara who was able to quite casually intercept Naruto's attempt at speed-blitzing him, albeit, without sage mode.


AS, I wouldn't be so sure about this.

Both Hashirama and Madara mentioned how his power returned after he was resurrected. I wouldn't be surprised nor crazy for thinking that his speed was also increased. 

In fact, it seems most of Madara's aspects were enhanced the moment he was revived. Specially when Hashirama commented (as mentioned above) how his power returned after he used his Katon attack.

However, Hashirama was keeping up with this Madara when they used to fight back then. Just letting you know your example might not be the best.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 24, 2014)

Kyu said:


> I'd love if someone could elaborate on how Hashi has superior chakra control and physical prowess.
> 
> Genuinely curious.



Hashirama has master class medical jutsu, which requires perfect chakra control.

Physically, Hashirama clashed with Madara's broken fan in taijutsu skirmishes.  Naruto's clashed with Madara's broken fan twice.  Both times he was blown away.

In terms of taijutsu, Madara and Hashirama are even.  But 

In terms of reactions and reflexes, check out the scan where Madara got revived in blind mode, and blitzed Naruto and Sai.  BSM Naruto has no idea what happened and couldn't even react to the unregistered blu, whereas Hashirama thinks, "Crap, I'm sealed by these rods and can't move."  Which tells me that Hashirama registered the attack and tried to move reflexively to defend him, but couldn't because of black rods.

Hashirama could also taijutsu fight with Madara while the Kyuubi was trying to kill him.  Keep in mind Madara has the taijutsu skill to trump Sasuke unarmed and blind, and is pretty much master swordsman himself.  Had Naruto and Gaara and Oonoki not been on that battlefield when he was revived, he could well have taken out that entire army, untouched, with just taijutsu, kenjutsu, and base sharingan genjutsu.

I think people just missed all of Hashirama's taijutsu feats because he was off in a corner fighting Madara all the time, or they focused on the big mokutons and general explosions happening around those chapters, because I keep seeing people say he has no feats, but his feats are there if you look for them.


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Mokuton Bushins are unable to become Sage Mode regardless, they aren't perfect clones of the user like Kage Bushin. The only advantage they have is they are more durable.
> 
> 1. Sage Naruto blocked and was uninjured. Being thrown off your feet by someone doesn't make said person physically stronger than the other.
> 2. Sage Madara didn't do SHIT against the Biju. He never 'tossed them around'. One-Eyed Rinnegan Madara did with Limbo, NOT any Sage Mode strength which Naruto displayed.
> ...



Can you please link me to where to states this ?

Said absolutely nothing about him being injured at all. So quit the useless stupidity. Being able to push someone that physically strong completely off their feet is a strength feat in itself.

Please explain to me the damn mechanics of limbo . Once you do so, you'll realize why the hell I mentioned that feat.

Naruto being able to sense shit a country away has nothing to do with anything. Being able to react in a battle situation is completely different. Sage Naruto doesn't have the feat to react against Tobirama hand movements when he could tag Juubito 4 times mid shunshin and place an arm over Juubito before he could move.

Id rather not debate with you as you aren't worth the time one bit.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (May 25, 2014)

Jagger said:


> AS, I wouldn't be so sure about this.
> 
> Both Hashirama and Madara mentioned how his power returned after he was resurrected. I wouldn't be surprised nor crazy for thinking that his speed was also increased.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what your point is. I'm aware that Madara was stronger after he revived, but I never cited living Madara anywhere in my post.


----------



## Ghost (May 25, 2014)

How is Hashi any better than good ol' Nardo? Pretty sure Naruto would be exactly like him when he gets older.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 25, 2014)

Perhaps because Naruto hasn't gotten older yet.  Or transmigratory whatevered in this thread


----------



## Kyu (May 25, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hashirama has master class medical jutsu, which requires perfect chakra control.







>



Converting, matching & dispersing his chakra to 30,000 shinobi in a relatively short timeframe. Manually controlling multiple chakra cloaks while fighting Madara & Obito further attests to his phenomenal chakra control.

What chakra control feat really puts Hashi above a guy who's capable of this?

At best you could call them equals in this regard.



> Physically, Hashirama clashed with Madara's broken fan in taijutsu skirmishes.  Naruto's clashed with Madara's broken fan twice.  Both times he was blown away.
> 
> In terms of taijutsu, Madara and Hashirama are even.  But
> 
> In terms of reactions and reflexes, check out the scan where Madara got revived in blind mode, and blitzed Naruto and Sai.  *BSM Naruto* has no idea what happened and couldn't even react to the unregistered blu, whereas Hashirama thinks, "Crap, I'm sealed by these rods and can't move."  Which tells me that Hashirama registered the attack and tried to move reflexively to defend him, but couldn't because of black rods.



That was Sage Naruto.

Biju Sage Naruto can track v2 Juubito's movements.

A substantially weaker Naruto reacted to v1 Juubito. 



> Hashirama could also taijutsu fight with Madara while the Kyuubi was trying to kill him.  Keep in mind Madara has the taijutsu skill to trump Sasuke unarmed and blind, and is pretty much master swordsman himself.  Had Naruto and Gaara and Oonoki not been on that battlefield when he was revived, he could well have taken out that entire army, untouched, with just taijutsu, kenjutsu, and base sharingan genjutsu.
> 
> I think people just missed all of Hashirama's taijutsu feats because he was off in a corner fighting Madara all the time, or they focused on the big mokutons and general explosions happening around those chapters, because I keep seeing people say he has no feats, but his feats are there if you look for them.



Naruto flings boss summons into the air, is powerful enough to break out of CT & durable enough to survive it, the kid even shrugs off hits from the Juubi.

No doubt Hashirama is more skilled in CQC seeing how he grew up fighting Madara & his clan for numerous decades but his physical strength and durability is lacking in contrast to Naruto.


----------



## ueharakk (May 25, 2014)

I'm guessing this is BSM Naruto and SM Hashirama?

*Taijutsu:*
_
Skill - Hashirama dodging the shinjuu, fighting madara in base
Brawling - ?
Physical Strength - Naruto assuming their SM give them relatively close physical boosts.  Base Hashirama didn't seem to be as physically powerful as BM Naruto (avatarless).
Speed - BSM Naruto, BM Naruto's flash shunshin enhanced by sennin mode
Reflexes - BSM Naruto, tagging juubito
Durability - BSM Naruto.  Assuming their SM give them relatively close durability boosts, base hashirama doesn't have the durability feats to block swords with his clones, grab lava, take V2 claw attacks and V1 han kicks to the face without damage, and naruto did all of that while in KCM.
Resilience - equal, they both have super stamina, and super regen.
_ 
*Ninjutsu*
_
Destructive Capacity  - BSM Naruto.  Bee and BM Naruto created *this crater* by combining their most powerful attack.  *Considering Bee's/hachibi's reaction to Naruto's power*, naruto probably contributed far more than bee to the blast, and power of naruto's ninjutsu at least doubles when he adds sennin mode to it so he'd be able to make an even larger crater than that with BSM.

Defensive  - Hashirama.  BSM Naruto might compete if it was strictly who can block the most power (BM Naruto blocks juubi's laser with 6 tails vs shinsuusenjuu's backpack destroyed by 11+ PSdamas), but hashirama has the unique ability to catch bijuudamas and PS swords plus he can summon mountain-sized rashoumon gates, and has quick and powerful defenses like moku hobi.
Support - Naruto.  cloaking and powering up the alliance.
Casting Speed - equal.  Hashirama doesn't need handsigns for a lot of his jutsu, so does naruto.
Efficiency - probably hashirama, naruto might not have perfected BM yet, and hashi has a lot more experience.
Innovativeness - Equal.
Versatility - Equal.
_
*Genjutsu:*
_
Offense - Equal. Bringer of darkness vs frog song.  One requires a lot more prep, the other is not as powerful.
Defense - Naruto, perfect jink.
_
*Chakra: *
_
Stamina - Naruto since kurama actively recharges his chakra, and has shown byakugo level heal factors.
Chakra control - equal, both masters as sennin mode.
Chakra Reserves - equal.
_
*Mental: *
_
Tactics - Equal
Insight - Equal
Knowledge -  Equal
Mindset - Hashirama
_
*Other distinct skills:*
_Weapons - Hashirama
Sensing - Naruto
Fūinjutsu - Hashirama
Regeneration - equal
_


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## jorge2060 88 (May 27, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Naruto did...what exactly wrong against Madara? He reacted and blocked.
> 
> Naruto clearly blocked.



Then why is he screaming Guah! and is seen falling flat on his back with expression full of pain?
and lets not forget this



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Naruto has the feats of reacting to V2 A and reacting to Sandaime Raikage.



Madara also reacted to V2 A  1,2 (who is faster than the 3rd Raikage) and still when it came to it a blind madara was still capable of kicking a SM naruto to the ground. While hashirama has frequently fought a madara with EMS in taijutsus battles to stalemates.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama used medical ninjutsu, not a taijutsu feat.



Except he does not even need handseals to regenerate, and his regeneration sill grants him a bigger durability in a taijutsu fight and a greater resilience as well.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Tsunade's Byakugou is on the same level from Madara himself.



Which is still superior to naruto's



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You're using medical ninjutsu as a taijutsu feat.



When Hashirama's recovery abilities (which are more an ability of hashirama's unique body than a medical ninjutsu) stops making him more durable and resilient in taijutsu battles I will stop using then as taijutsu feats.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Naruto can cut through Juubi tails with his Rasenshuriken, create Shinsusenju sized Odama Rasenshuriken, and his Senpo: Bijudama and Chou Bijudama are on the same level if not higher than Hashirama.



Jubi tails that are made of thing of the jubi  clones that the likes of kiba could cut, Furthermore the senpo bijudama has no destruction feats. The naruto we are discussing has no destructions feats on the same level as this one
Please note the barrage of susanoo sword-bijudamas that were thrown by a 100% kyubi/madara, the fact that hashirama was capable of matching that combo and that it was capable of removing the ps susano armor at the same time.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto blocked a V1 Juubi Bijudama beam. That trumps Hashirama's defensive feats.



The v1 juubi lacked all the eight tail and the 100% nine tails chakra (who could match the bijudamas of 5 other bijuu with only 50% of its power) plus it was far from being as powerful as its more evolved forms who indeed where able of making stronger bijudamas. There is no evidence that the strength of It's beam is larger than this and after tanking the attack naruto's avatar was missing its tails while hashirama could block a point blank bijudama without a scratch to his mokuton construct. 
Not only that naruto's bsm construct showed the same durability as version of susanoo lower than the perfect one. 1 2  3



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Isn't Mokuton the definition of a one-trick pony? Rasengan and its variations are used inventively and innovatingly throughout the series.



Uh no... rasengan is the definition of a one-trick pony, every use it has is to hurt the opponent (please note we are not talking of current naruto and his new rasengans) the only thing that changes from one version to another is the size, shape and the way naruto makes it hit the oponent (It is such an one trick phoney that as soon as a stronger version of it is discovered by naruto the older version are never used again). On the other hand the amount of inovation and versality that hashirama can employ with his mokuton is way superior than anything naruto can do with his rasengans.
Hashirama can create the most varied number of constructs, employ them for offense, defense, make than perform sealing jutsu, use jutsus of every chakra element, absorb chakra he can even use it to knock his foes with the pollen from the flower world and not only that create a sealing technique capable of holding the jubi down. Oh and btw hashirama is able to use other jutsus that are not mokuton related.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The same tactic Naruto uses on a regular basis?



And never was able to fool someone on the same tier as madara, can you remember the last time he succeed in doing so?



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only once.





let's count
1  2 2 still 3 3 still 4 4 still 5

hashirama on the other hand always showed to be ready with his conviction unshaken ready to what was necessary when needed
 1 2 3



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Stop underrating Naruto.



You are the one who should stop overrating  naruto, and take some time to look at yourself to see your own bias, before going around negging people calling them biased. 

Have a good day sir.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 27, 2014)

jorge2060 88 said:


> Then why is he screaming Guah! and is seen falling flat on his back with expression full of pain?
> and lets not forget this


Naruto wasn't hurt. He was surprised. There's a difference. Naruto blocked perfectly _despite_ using up a ass load of Senjutsu chakra for the Odama Rasenshuriken. Even back in the Pain Arc, when Naruto used up a lot of Senjutu Chakra, his reactions and speed start falling, remember that?

Madara didn't even face Naruto's bam-flash Shunshin in Biju Mode then. When Naruto did use it, Madara was unable to act until afterwards.


> Madara also reacted to V2 A  1,2 (who is faster than the 3rd Raikage) and still when it came to it a blind madara was still capable of kicking a SM naruto to the ground. While hashirama has frequently fought a madara with EMS in taijutsus battles to stalemates.


That's A's _initial_ level of speed. Madara never faced A's maximum speed. You can tell since A's hair isn't sticking up. And blind Madara kicked a Sage Mode Naruto who had used up most of his Senjutsu chakra on the Odama Rasenshuriken, thus had slower reactions, but Naruto _still_ blocked. And that wasn't even in _Biju Sage Mode_, Naruto's strongest form until Rikudo Senjutsu.




> Except he does not even need handseals to regenerate, and his regeneration sill grants him a bigger durability in a taijutsu fight and a greater resilience as well.


Its still classified as _medical ninjutsu_. Hashirama's body hasn't shown any durability greater than Naruto who has tanked a lot of things. Hell just to complete his Futon: Rasenshuriken, his Sage Mode would have to have protected his arm from the millions of wind blades that cause such severe damage his arm was in danger of becoming non-chakra functional. Remember that?

Not to mention: Naruto has _regen too_. Either from his Uzumaki blood or Kurama, and he can heal and recover without seals too.


> Which is still superior to naruto's


Really? Its not like Naruto regenerated after being impaled through his lung way back in Part I, right? Show me some of these regen feats that are above that.




> When Hashirama's recovery abilities (which are more an ability of hashirama's unique body than a medical ninjutsu) stops making him more durable and resilient in taijutsu battles I will stop using then as taijutsu feats.


When have they ever came up? Hashirama's recovery abilities, as Madara classifed, are Medical Ninjutsu without seals. He has to consciously ACTIVATE them as when Madara showed here. 




> Jubi tails that are made of thing of the jubi  clones that the likes of kiba could cut, Furthermore the senpo bijudama has no destruction feats. The naruto we are discussing has no destructions feats on the same level as this one
> Please note the barrage of susanoo sword-bijudamas that were thrown by a 100% kyubi/madara, the fact that hashirama was capable of matching that combo and that it was capable of removing the ps susano armor at the same time.


Jubi tails are supremely durable. Juubi Clones do not share the Juubi's durability, anyone knows that when they're talking honestly. Not to mention Naruto's Senpo: Bijudama is strong enough to break through the Gedodama shield Obito erected. And Naruto's Super Bijudama is capable of _this_, far greater than the Choju Kebetsu barrage. 




> The v1 juubi lacked all the eight tail and the 100% nine tails chakra (who could match the bijudamas of 5 other bijuu with only 50% of its power) plus it was far from being as powerful as its more evolved forms who indeed where able of making stronger bijudamas. There is no evidence that the strength of It's beam is larger than this and after tanking the attack naruto's avatar was missing its tails while hashirama could block a point blank bijudama without a scratch to his mokuton construct.


The V1 Juubi is still _far_ stronger than 100% Kurama and Shinsusenju. Hell it _replicated_ the same feat Shinsusenju did and unlike Shinsusenju, it didn't lose its primary armament. Naruto blocks a far stronger attack than what Hashirama _ever_ faced and comes out practically unscathed, that's superior defense and its dishonest to claim otherwise.


> Not only that naruto's bsm construct showed the same durability as version of susanoo lower than the perfect one. 1 2  3


 Isn't having them both survive an attack from fucking _Juubito_, and Naruto still being in Sage Mode, a superior feat than anything that Hashirama's done?




> Uh no... rasengan is the definition of a one-trick pony, every use it has is to hurt the opponent (please note we are not talking of current naruto and his new rasengans) the only thing that changes from one version to another is the size, shape and the way naruto makes it hit the oponent (It is such an one trick phoney that as soon as a stronger version of it is discovered by naruto the older version are never used again). On the other hand the amount of inovation and versality that hashirama can employ with his mokuton is way superior than anything naruto can do with his rasengans.
> Hashirama can create the most varied number of constructs, employ them for offense, defense, make than perform sealing jutsu, use jutsus of every chakra element, absorb chakra he can even use it to knock his foes with the pollen from the flower world and not only that create a sealing technique capable of holding the jubi down. Oh and btw hashirama is able to use other jutsus that are not mokuton related.


Naruto's able to use other jutsus than Rasengan related too. He used summoning variants that Jiraiya taught him, summoning himself, Kage Bushin variants, henge mastering, and of course the Bijudama which ISN'T a Rasengan Variant. And the Rasengan itself is a highly versatile technique, has many uses. Finally most of Hashirama's entire arsenal is Mokuton related and nothing else. True Naruto has a lot of Rasengan variants, but they're all different in their own way.




> And never was able to fool someone on the same tier as madara, can you remember the last time he succeed in doing so?


That's not the point. Bushin Feint is Naruto's STANDARD tactic. He's fooled geniuses over and over again in the manga with it ever since Part I. Stop downplaying him.




> let's count
> 1  2 2 still 3 3 still 4 4 still 5
> 
> hashirama on the other hand always showed to be ready with his conviction unshaken ready to what was necessary when needed
> 1 2 3


Even though the ultimate thing at the end of Hashirama's story was that he DID lose his way and convictions that by killing Madara, he didn't change anything? Even Madara interpreted it as such.




> You are the one who should stop overrating  naruto, and take some time to look at yourself to see your own bias, before going around negging people calling them biased.
> 
> Have a good day sir.


I'm not overrating Naruto. I'm going by what the manga explicitly shown on him. You've downplayed him at every point here. Ignored he's faced people stronger than Hashirama and lived. Using when he's on low chakra as proof his taijutsu is inferior. Claiming Juubi Clones _share the same durability as the Juubi which can tank its own Super Bijudama_.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2014)

In general hashirama wins by ninjutsu support, destructiveness etc. 
genjutsu hashirama also wins: being able to cast it and all and then completely pawn edo tensei mind control. itachi needed a jutsu used once every 10 years to defeat it. hashirama just lol'd it

taijutsu naruto could be better..they dont use it much 

regen hashirama by a landscape. naruto can't survive being split in half...please dont claim he can. hashirama can survive that and keep it moving. 

These are people who using his DNA have survived it. 
madara, zetsu. 

tsunade using a tech that pales to his survived being split in half 

naruto wins in support and speed because he can transfer his chakra and his speed can be compared to minato's . everything else he looses.


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