# Is Sasori Sannin level??



## Matty (Jun 2, 2015)

I havve always saw parallels between Sasori's story and Orochimaru's. Both were geniuses of their villages both were stars for their respective villages during the 3rd shinobi war and both of them went rogue and joined the Akatsuki, though Sasori seemed to be far younger than Oro and the other 2 sannin (I believe Sasori was 15 after the 3rd war) and ironically they ended up being partnered in the Akatsuki. I have always looked at Sasori as being Sunagakures version of a sannin (even though he's alone)

Does anyone else see these parallels? Do they matter at all (prob not lol) And can he hold his own against any of the legendary sannin?


Area: Grassy Field
Distance: 40 meters
Knowledge: None
Restrictions: Summons
Mindset: IC

He's healed after every battle

Jiraiya
Tsunade
Orochimaru


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

For the question, I would certainly say so. Sasori managed to defeat the strongest Kazekage without a huge part of his arsenal. That's impressive. 

 Even Deidara who's arguably Sannin Level admitted inferiority to Sasori. I would certainly hope Sasori was Sannin Level.


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## Matty (Jun 2, 2015)

Yea he is one of my favorite characters that I wish was  elaborated more on. For someone with the amount of hype and feats he has he was really used poorly at times. I don't even consider edo Sasori as himself. That was just a troll. I just really wanted to get a grasp on what people on the boards thought of him and I thought it was interesting how he is sort of Suna's  Sannin (even though sannin means three XD)


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Yea he is one of my favorite characters that I wish was  elaborated more on. For someone with the amount of hype and feats he has he was really used poorly at times. I don't even consider edo Sasori as himself. That was just a troll. I just really wanted to get a grasp on what people on the boards thought of him and I thought it was interesting how he is sort of Suna's  Sannin (even though sannin means three XD)



 Edo Sasori didn't have access to any of his puppets really and lacked his actual puppet body accustomed for combat which implies that he was less perceptive and had lower reaction speed. I mean really, Kankuro managing to wrap his strings around Sasori's who reached the pinnacle of puppetry was purely plot, nothing more.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 2, 2015)

Based on feats, I'd say he's below them, perhaps in a tie with Tsunade is the best place to rate him at. But I don't think I'll ever be ready to put him in the mix with Orochimaru and/or Jiraiya. Those two have a definitive advantage over him, for what it is worth, outside of iron sand, he really doesn't have much.


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## Mercurial (Jun 2, 2015)

"Sannin level" doesn't exist in first place.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2015)

Neither does "kage level" yet we still use the term a lot around here. Both are titles, yes, but those titles are indicative of strength. The Sannin earned their name by surviving against one of the strongest shinobi of their era, and the Sannin only _continued to improve_ after that.

Pretty sure the Sannin are a cut above the likes of Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, and Kisame (I tend to put these guys in the middle tier of Akatsuki). That's what I've always believed anyway.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Pretty sure the Sannin are a cut above the likes of Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, and Kisame (I tend to put these guys in the middle tier of Akatsuki). That's what I've always believed anyway.



 Man, but Deidara and Kisame are my fave.

 You can put Kakuzu in the shit tier, but the others? C'mon mane. Not cool. 

 Based on feats, I can agree Sasori is a cut below the Sannin (excluding Slug Lady), but the problem is that he never performed at full potential, so thus, we never saw what he was truly capable of. Hype indicates that he could very well be at Sannin level and I see no reason for him not to be. Deidara himself felt that he was superior to a guy who killed Orochimaru and felt he could troll a guy who trolled Orochimaru. Even with Hebi Sasuke's statement taken into consideration, the fact that Deidara is one of the most skilled aerial fighters out there and has a technique that can bust an entire village implies he should be up there IMO and he himself admitted inferiority to Sasori.

 That's my take on it anyways.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

considering you restrict summons 
doesn't that tell u something?

u feel the need to restrict the sannin while sasori is unrestricted

they all beat sasori 

though to me they could be considered all around the same level

I wont call the sannin a clean level above him


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## Matty (Jun 2, 2015)

I don't mean sannin level as a thing. Im saying that to me Sasori is the Sand's version of a sannin. A genius ninja, most likely the most powerful in the village (aside from maybe war arc gaara) But by that logic besides suiton Kisame doesn't have much... so what's you point? Besides the fact Sasori has multiple puppets the iron sand, flamethrowers, he's a genius who created some of the most potent poison ever made and was a force during the 3rd war before even having the 3rd kazekage. Has any of the Sannin killed any kage (besides maybe Oro)

Tsunade is not that impressive feat wise, she has an insanely strong summon, great strength and is the greatest medical nin of all time and yea that's amazingly impressive but has she ever done? Same with Jiraiya what has he done? At least you can point to Sasori and say he destroyed a country by himself and also killed his villages strongest kage ever. On top of that Oro needed to sneak attack him with kabuto.

Yes I restricted summons to evaluate them strictly with ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu. I have never thought of summons as being a ninjas actual prowess. It's like hiring someone to fight the battle for you. Kudos if you can do it but just because someone can summon the most powerful monster alive doesn't mean they are necessarily the smartest, strongest, or most tactical ninja.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 2, 2015)

I don't think so. Jiraiya himself could arguably take out Sasori in base. Orochimaru was pretty confident that Sasori would be nothing to him. Tsunade, using Katsuyu, could plausibly make little work of Sasori.

I believe Sasori was on a high level, but not high enough to challenge the Sannin. Though without summons, he could plausibly take on Tsunade. You cannot separate snakes from Orochimaru since he's essentially a bunch of snakes put together as per his experiments.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Yes I restricted summons to evaluate them strictly with ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu. I have never thought of summons as being a ninjas actual prowess. It's like hiring someone to fight the battle for you. Kudos if you can do it but just because someone can summon the most powerful monster alive doesn't mean they are necessarily the smartest, strongest, or most tactical ninja.



sasori summons the 3rd kazekage puppet though 

also the puppets fight for him 

u restricting them kinda shows u don't believe he can compete otherwise

since for summoners, using their summons is a main part of their arsenal 

orochimaru(all snake related techniques, and ET)

jiraiya(SM and all frog related techniques)

tsunade(katsuyu)

all those things require summons. u restrict summoning and u taking a lot of their arsenal away


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 2, 2015)

Going off feats he is below all of them when it comes to one on one battle or just measuring their movesets with each imo. You can put him on their general level tho.


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## Matty (Jun 2, 2015)

Ahhh Icegaze I see what you mean. Ehhh guess I was just hoping my guy would give them a good fight 1v1 XD -_-


But I still do believe that he is the sand's equivalent. I just see too many parallel's with him. He's like suna's Orochimaru


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't think so. Jiraiya himself could arguably take out Sasori in base. Orochimaru was pretty confident that Sasori would be nothing to him. Tsunade, using Katsuyu, could plausibly make little work of Sasori.



 I'm just gonna get a nice glass of hot cocoa and say that Base Jiraiya gets slaughtered by Satetsu.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

hey matty he is the sand equivalent no doubt

but the sand village is also the weakest village


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## Matty (Jun 2, 2015)

I hear ya ice. 

BTW to the above poster who said Oro thinks Sasori is nothing to him. Is that why he had Kabuto sneak attack him with a 2 v 1? Because I'm pretty sure if Oro thought he was nothing he would just go face to face and do the job. He know's hes dangerous. Whether Oro can take hi or not I am not getting into but he knew he was a threat and they worked together with the akatsuki. God damn how I wish they would make an arc on that duo -_- lmao


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Man, but Deidara and Kisame are my fave.
> 
> You can put Kakuzu in the shit tier, but the others? C'mon mane. Not cool.
> 
> ...



I don't see it as the shit tier man. This is how I rank the Akatsuki:

*Tier I*
Obito
Pain
Itachi

*Tier II*
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu

*Tier III*
Konan (no paper ocean)
Zetsu
Hidan

They certainly aren't in the first tier, and they certainly aren't in the bottom either tier (the _real_ shit tier, relatively speaking anyway ). So I think putting them in tier II is more than fair. I don't feel the difference between all four is enough to warrant placing them in separate tiers. Level wise and match up wise their all pretty close imo.

If we're talking hype, I think the Sannin hype eclipses Sasori's or Deidara's hype . . . by a great margin. Just look at the praise each Sannin received during the war arc alone. Madara noted Tsunade's healing factor is on par with Hashirama's, Orochimaru helped pave the way to victory with Edo Tensei, and Obito remarks how Jiraiya defeated him in spirit through his students. Also, Tsunade with knowledge of Pain figured Jiraiya wouldn't have died if Orochimaru turned good earlier. 

If we're talking feats things are definitely more even. But I kinda disagree that Sasori had a lot more to show. We were taken through all of his forms when he fought Sakura and Chiyo. Iron Sand and those 100 hundred puppets are canonically Sasori's best weapons. Yes, it seems Sasori did throw the match in the end, but if we take that too far it makes Sakura and Chiyo look unimpressive in their own right, and I don't think that's the author's intention. He clearly wanted to show us how much Sakura progressed after the time skip by throwing an Akatsuki member her way.


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2015)

I kinda have trouble placing Zetsu on this list. Not really sure where he should be.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I kinda have trouble placing Zetsu on this list. Not really sure where he should be.



 He did grab KCM Naruto and evade his FRS while occupying Mei and a bunch of other Jonin level ninja. That's impressive and surpasses what Hidan is capable of. That and BZ seems to have greater combat experience or at least, awareness (for lack of a better term) compared to Hidan. I would certainly place BZ above Hidan, but that's my opinion anyways.


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2015)

You're probably correct on that. Zetsu moves up a spot.


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2015)

Poor Hidan tho


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## Kai (Jun 2, 2015)

At the time Sasori and Deidara were fresh and hot in the manga, they were considered to be in the ballpark of the Sannin not because of novelty with introduction, but because the Sannin had never unleashed their full power up to that point and this was *often* a popular point brought up at the time.

After seeing the scope of Byakugo, Sage Mode, and Edo Tensei after those members' deaths, I fail to see how Sasori, Deidara, nor Kakuzu can deal with the Sannin trump cards. 

Inflation was already brewing. Just a scary thought that the "base" Sannin were already considered powerhouses when the artist and zombie duos dominated panel time.


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## Matty (Jun 2, 2015)

I'm not really sure any of the akatsuki got to showcase their full power either though. As villains they just are in a disadvantageous situation. You think if it was switched around and say you had just Sakura fighting Sasori that he wouldn't have annihalated her? If he and any other akatsuki got more screen time I am sure they would have prgressed and gotten more powerful as the series went on. That's the shitty part of plot


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## RBL (Jun 2, 2015)

sannin level doesn't exist

Tsunade is shit compared to the other sannins.

Sasori > Tsunade

however 

Orochimar and Jiraiya >> Sasori


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I'm not really sure any of the akatsuki got to showcase their full power either though. As villains they just are in a disadvantageous situation. You think if it was switched around and say you had just Sakura fighting Sasori that he wouldn't have annihalated her? If he and any other akatsuki got more screen time I am sure they would have prgressed and gotten more powerful as the series went on. That's the shitty part of plot



 That's the thing. Sasori never got to showcase his true power.

 He never used the ninjutsu his 100 puppets were capable of as some were composed of actual human puppets and he never once attempted Satetsu along his 100 puppet technique despite how haxed that would be.

 In addition, Kishimoto had to resort to Sakura getting lucky by having Sasori force the Kazekage Puppet to engage in CQC against Sakura even though the safest route would have been to kill her off with Satetsu. Furthermore, Sasori implied he can make far greater quantities of Satetsu than what he displayed as he claimed to have only used a measly amount of chakra to wither the group's defenses with Satetsu and he has a 5 in Stamina. He has to require a very high amount of stamina to constantly pump chakra to 100 puppets, especially when it's considered an effective part of his arsenal and also his trump card. 

 And finally, his versatility with Iron Sand would allow him to be an effective long-range fighter which would have easily overwhelmed Elder Chiyo and Sakura, especially when there'd be an onslaught of Satetsu and 100 puppets with some capable of using ninjutsu awaiting them.

 Sasori never got to showcase his power and was nerfed as a way for Sakura to win and show her progress as a ninja even though it was nowhere even close to being a legitimate win. And then Kishimoto had the nerve to nerf Sasori to shit to showcase Kankuro's growth as a ninja even though we all know Hiruko would fodderstomp War Arc Kankuro. So basically, Kishimoto gave Sasori the same treatment to Sakura as he did to Kankuro. 

 I can't even continue with this post. I'm so saddened by Kishimoto's representation of Sasori's strength.


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## Matty (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That's the thing. Sasori never got to showcase his true power.
> 
> He never used the ninjutsu his 100 puppets were capable of as some were composed of actual human puppets and he never once attempted Satetsu along his 100 puppet technique despite how haxed that would be.
> 
> ...



LMAO you are my new best friend


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2015)

Sandaime-Kazekage was said to tower above the other Kazekages in strength. So unless all 4 other Kazekage aren't even worth of the Kage Title, Sandaime-Kazekage should be a tough opponent for the Sannin [Sans Super-Byakugo Tsunade and Hokage-Tensei Orochimaru], Sasori who beat the Kazekage and than intergrated the Kazekage's abilities into his own fighting style, should be more than a match for them. Beyond that he also has the hype of soloing a country and being stronger than Deidara, which also bodes well for him being a match for the Sannin. And of course Orochimaru setting up an ambush with Kabuto, to me also reflects Orochimaru's respect for Sasori's strength and how difficult it would be to take him out, as otherwise he would have just faced Sasori straight up.

As far as the matches go, I'm a little troubled by the opening's bias, as he is trying to prove the Sasori is equal to the Sannin yet restricts arguably the Sannin's strongest ability; summoning. W/o Summoning and no knowledge Sasori is very clearly the odds on favorite to win every match. And the sad thing is there is no reason to do so as  even w/o the unfair restriction of summons, Sasori is still has better odds to win than any of the Sannin in a no knowledge scenario, again barring PII-Tensei-Hokage and 3Y-Byakugo. 

In a knowledge scenario Tsunade still looses most matches with a reasonable amount of Byakugo. Orochimaru [w/ PI-Tensei] could really go ether way in a tough match. Jiraiya likely wins more often than not.

Overall in terms of abilities, Sasori is a bit more dangerous than the Sannin in a no knowledge scenario and in a knowledge scenario he's around as dangerous as PI-Orochimaru. Though still a bit less dangerous than Jiraiya. And of course falls woefully behind 3Y-Byakugo-Tsunade and PII-Tensei-Hokage Orochimaru


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## Ersa (Jun 3, 2015)

Arguably a very tough match for Tsunade but no I wouldn't put him on the same level as the Sannin overall although he certainly isn't far off.


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

No, Sasori is below the Sannin-itachi's level. I don't knot if people take that seriously or not, but even in the last game, the cutscene or whatever they are called, it implies that Oro is superior to Sasori as well. 



NarutoX28 said:


> He did grab KCM Naruto and evade his FRS while occupying Mei and a bunch of other Jonin level ninja. That's impressive and surpasses what Hidan is capable of. That and BZ seems to have greater combat experience or at least, awareness (for lack of a better term) compared to Hidan. I would certainly place BZ above Hidan, but that's my opinion anyways.



you did not bring up his most impressive feats. 
1- He fodderstompped Madara at his peak.
2- he made Sasuke a helpless B. (Had it not been for Narudo saving his ass. )


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## Ersa (Jun 3, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No, Sasori is below the Sannin-itachi's level. I don't knot if people take that seriously or not, but even in the last game, the cutscene or whatever they are called, it implies that Oro is superior to Sasori as well.




Isn't that what I said?


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

I don't know what you said, since I did not read anything, but if so, then that's good.


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## Beyonce (Jun 3, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> sannin level doesn't exist
> 
> Tsunade is shit compared to the other sannins.
> 
> ...



You make it seem as if Tsunade was in a completely different tier than Jiraiya.

Lord Katsuyu>>>>>Sasori


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## Deer Lord (Jun 3, 2015)

Sasori is in their league, yeah.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2015)

yh sasori is in their league however they all murder him quite simply 

mainly jiriaya who should at the most mid diff him 

and that's me giving sasori a lot of benefit of the doubt.


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## Deer Lord (Jun 3, 2015)

nah.
they all rely too much on close combat which is bad against sasori.


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## Bloo (Jun 3, 2015)

What the hell even is Sannin level? Mifune, whom I don't consider to be that powerful of a shinobi, beat Hanzo whose strength challenged Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Tsunade simultaneously and he gave them that title for just surviving... The whole "Sannin" level thing to me is just BS. However, if you want to know if Sasori is "up there" with Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Tsunade, then the answer is yes.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'm just gonna get a nice glass of hot cocoa and say that Base Jiraiya gets slaughtered by Satetsu.



That's why I said you could argue that Jiraiya (base) could beat Sasori; I never said it was a done deal.


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

Base Jiraiya is more than enough to defeat Sasori. He does not need his SM.


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## Canute87 (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> For the question, I would certainly say so. Sasori managed to defeat the strongest Kazekage without a huge part of his arsenal. That's impressive.
> 
> Even Deidara who's arguably Sannin Level admitted inferiority to Sasori. I would certainly hope Sasori was Sannin Level.



Jiraiya took on six pains.

The answer is no.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2015)

In tier-list list terms, "Sannin-level" is high end Mid Kage level, or low end High Kage level. So no, Sasori isn't on the same level, as he's probably a bottom end Mid Kage.

Also stop with all of this 'Tsunade is way weaker than Orochimaru and Jiraiya' tomfoolery, the woman is clearly in the same league in them.​​


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> Jiraiya took on six pains.
> 
> The answer is no.



 Yeah and he easily died against them.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Also stop with all of this 'Tsunade is way weaker than Orochimaru and Jiraiya' tomfoolery, the woman is clearly in the same league in them.​​




Going by what we saw... that's incredibly difficult to see.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yeah and he easily died against them.



There was nothing easy about that.

He also had only one arm at that point, so...


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## Rocky (Jun 3, 2015)

No it isn't Munboy. Orochimaru can't do anything to her. She'd beat him.


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> In tier-list list terms, "Sannin-level" is high end Mid Kage level, or low end High Kage level. So no, Sasori isn't on the same level, as he's probably a bottom end Mid Kage.
> 
> Also stop with all of this 'Tsunade is way weaker than Orochimaru and Jiraiya' tomfoolery, the woman is clearly in the same league in them.​​


There is no "league". The Sannin are always different "levels" from each other throughout the entire manga. At start of P1 Jiraiya and Orochimaru were by far stronger than Tsunade due to hemophilia and being rusty. After the Hiruzen fight and Tsunade got over hemophilia she and Jiraiya were way stronger than Orochimaru. Than Orochimaru got a stand in body from Genryomaru and went back to being well above Tsunade w/ Jiraiya as she was still rusty. Than time-skip happens and Tsunade and Jiriaya are well above Orochimaru as Tsunade is no longer rusty and Orochimaru has body failure/Shiki Fuujin side effects. Than the gap only widens as Orochimaru's body fails more and more.  And so on.

Only Jiraiya was really on one stable level throughout the manga. Orochimaru and Tsunade were always fluctuating tremendously in strength.

As far as your analysts on Sasori goes, there is no way he is bottom end Mid-Kage, unless your saying Sandaime-Kazekage who towered over 4 other Kages in strength is lower than bottom end mid-kage, which is only possible if literally every Tsuchikage, Mizukage, and Raikage were by far stronger than all the Kazekage to such a degree that they are also stronger than Sandaime by a large margin. Which is extremely unlikely.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Going by what we saw... that's incredibly difficult to see.



Then improve your vision. ​​


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## FlamingRain (Jun 3, 2015)

They weren't on different levels during the Search for Tsunade arc when they were all mutually handicapped. Them being at their best contemporaneously during the course of the manga is irrelevant, though, because a character's diminished power is not what's representative of them, it's their unhindered power.

The equality of the Sannin only requires that in shape Tsunade without hemophobia and Orochimaru not suffering from the effects of Shiki Fūjin are on par with Jiraiya when he's not drugged.


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yeah and he easily died against them.



surely not as easily as Sasori got defeated by Kankuro or Sai.


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

> As far as your analysts on Sasori goes, there is no way he is bottom end Mid-Kage, unless your saying Sandaime-Kazekage who towered over 4 other Kages in strength is lower than bottom end mid-kage, which is only possible if literally every Tsuchikage, Mizukage, and Raikage were by far stronger than all the Kazekage to such a degree that they are also stronger than Sandaime by a large margin. Which is extremely unlikely



Turrin, please stop using this logic when we know jackshit about them. Yes, they could very well be shitty fighters. "unless you think Sakura and Chyio who gave him a run for his money would be like this or that...etc" 



> Tsuchikage, Mizukage, and Raikage were by far stronger than all the Kazekage to such a degree that they are also stronger than Sandaime by a large margin. Which is extremely unlikely



What is so unlikely about that exactly?
by your logic Kankuro and Sai would be also at the top of the Kages. We simply don't know anything about their power
because Kishi never took the time to show them. Also, the second Kazekage is likely even weaker than Chiyo.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2015)

yh gotta agree with hussain 

using the sandaime kazekage to determine that sasori must be at a certain level isnt actually good logic 

like at all 

3rd kazekage could have been the strongest of the kazekage but then the others could have been weaker than chiyo for example. which really doesnt bode well for sasori level

especially if we consider it could have been an ambush. thats like saying orochimaru is at a higher level than he is because he off paneled the yondaime kazekage who could stop a bijuu in its tracks 

what sasori displayed and how his jutus works puts him in a bind against the sannin 

nothing he can do against FCD, or katsuyu or orochimaru if orochimaru uses ET, or yamata


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Turrin, please stop using this logic when we know jackshit about them. Yes, they could very well be shitty fighters. "


Dude I know they are Kages, I also know a good amount about Rasa's strength.



> "unless you think Sakura and Chyio who gave him a run for his money would be like this or that...etc


You put anyone in a situation where the plot  their emotions prevent them from dodging a fatal strike and anyone looses. Minato, Madara, everyone.

As far as giving Sasori trouble. The team was tailored perfectly and set up perfectly condition wise to counter Sasori's capabilities, so of course they are going to give him trouble. Any squad composed of a skilled Jonin and a low-kage, tailor suited to face one enemy with conditions aiding them, should be capable of at least giving a Mid/High-Kage trouble. This applies to the Sannin, Minato, Itachi, and so on...anyone in that relative "level" would have trouble with a similar situation tailored to counter them.

However in the grand scheme of things, one must keep in mind Sasori still had 196 puppets left, showed no signs of fatigue, and was not truly damage in anyway. So he was quite capable of continue to fight, while Sakura and Chiyo were in shambles ether poisoned or dying, before Sasori was PNJ'd allowed himself to be hit. So Sasori would have had Mid to at Most High Diff with them, but was at no point in jeopardy of loosing the match or even pushed to extreme diff, until emotions came into play.



> What is so unlikely about that exactly?


It's unlikely to me that the Strongest Kazekage by far is weaker than the weakest Kage from every other Village, as that would make Sungakuru such fodder in comparison to the other countries that I have no understanding of how they survived as a Great Nation. 

Plus I know for a fact that Rasa can  beat Mei and at least give  Ei a tough time, and even if Rasa is the strongest Kazekage after Sandaime-Kazekage, Sandaime is still much stronger than him, so at the very least Sandaime-Kazekage should be >= Ei, and It's quite dubious to me that Mei and Ei are inferior to the totally featless and hypless Shodai/Nindaime-Raikage and Shodai/Sandaime-Mizukage. 



> by your logic Kankuro and Sai would be also at the top of the Kages.


I have no clue what the fuck your talking about Hussain



> . We simply don't know anything about their power
> because Kishi never took the time to show them


True we don't know for certain, but when talking about what is likely. It is much more likely that Sandiame-Kazekage is in Mid-Kage, than bellow it. As I mean basically there are 22 Kages as of PII. So if we separate things into three brackets; High-Kage [Or upper Mid], Mid-Kage, and Low-Kage that's 22 divided by 3. Which comes out to roughly 7. So you should be Mid-Kage if you are >= 7 Kages. Sandaime-Kazekage is already stronger than 4 Kages right off the bat. Really he only needs to be >= to 3 other Kages to reach Mid-Kage, and since Rasa is at least close enough to Mei that Sandaime-Kazekage who towers above him is clearly stronger than her. That lowers it to 2. So out of the other 17 Kages if Sandaime-Kazekage is >= to two of them mathematically speaking he should be Mid-Kage. And I find it highly unlikely that he is weaker than all 17 other Kages.



> Also, the second Kazekage is likely even weaker than Chiyo.


Totally and completely baseless.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No it isn't Munboy. Orochimaru can't do anything to her. She'd beat him.



How could she possibly beat him? She can't even beat Jiraiya; Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Then improve your vision. ​​



Tsunade is the weakest of the Sannin though. She's the Sakura of the Sannin.


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## Rocky (Jun 3, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How could she possibly beat him?



Pulverize him with her physical power. Outlast his taxing rebirth jutsu. Melt him with godslug. 

She's got options.

On the other hand, Orochimaru can't do jack shit unless we're talking Zetsu Orochimaru with his four zombies (that are all probably stronger than him).


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## Puppetry (Jun 3, 2015)

The issue is that the equality of the Sannin takes into account  abilities that don't have immediate application in a one-on-one battle. Tsunade's skill with solving toxins as well as her ability to heal a mass of people simultaneously don't translate directly into fighting someone like Jiraiya.  

So yes, as a threat to an opponent, Sasori is comparable with the Sannin.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> There was nothing easy about that.
> 
> He also had only one arm at that point, so...



 There actually was. His Taijutsu and Ninjutsu was countered by 3 Paths, 2 of which aren't even one of the stronger Paths and one of them being Animal Path who didn't resort to Summons until it was too late.

 Deva Path was easily implied to negate Naruto's Taijutsu attempts as displayed in his fight and Naruto is physically superior to Jiraiya. Furthermore, along with Preta Path, makes for an unstoppable combination that Jiraiya can't penetrate due to each other being able to counter both Taijutsu and Ninjutsu. Furthermore, Pain had complete knowledge on Frog Song at that point and without anything that could even counter Pain's arsenal, he went down hard. He had to resort to a clever tactic in order to defeat Pain and even that rendered him almost unable to fight and  left him defeating one of the Paths.


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## Cjones (Jun 3, 2015)

Sannin isn't a 'level' anyway, but is he in their league? Probably. I remember Jiraiya comparing the two man cell of Akatsuki to himself when both Sasori and Deidara where going to invade the sand. 

Something along the lines of wondering if the Sand could handle two of him invading.


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## Tainted Sun (Jun 3, 2015)

What can Tsunade even do to Sasori?

Sasori is easily stronger than her.


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## Cjones (Jun 3, 2015)

Hulk crush all his puppets like Sakura?


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## Matty (Jun 3, 2015)

that bitches head will be cut off the moment she gets close enough to punch him. I think people tend to forget that with no knowledge any CQC can easily end up with a stomach cable through the throat and/or knife wings cutting your head off. Let's face it. He is one of the most powerful ninjas who was just abused by plot. It's just that simple. After reading all of this I realize one thing. Sasori would not be stomped by any of them. There is a reason Oro wanted to ambush him, there is a reason he solo'd a country and earned his nickname in the 3rd shinobi war and there is a reason that Kishi had to resort to his own grandmother (who knew everything about him and STILL was inches away from death numerous times) to be the one that beat him. Has tthere ever been a fight in Naruto that someone has had such in depth physical, emotional and familial knowledge on the opponent outside of Sasuke/Itachi or Sasuke/Naruto?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 3, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> The issue is that the equality of the Sannin takes into account abilities that don't have immediate application in a one-on-one battle.



Says who?

Sayings like "only another Sannin can deal with a Sannin"/"are the only ones who can fight against the Sannin the Sannin themselves" are in the context of threat to an opponent. Chapter titles like "A three-way deadlock of offense and defense" sure don't sound like they're concerned with abilities outside of combat either.

Saying that Tsunade's skill with deciphering toxins and ability to heal a mass of people simultaneously don't directly translate into fighting someone like Jiraiya is about like saying Jiraiya's ability to infiltrate enemy lines and make toads look like bars in foreign villages doesn't directly translate into fighting someone like Tsunade.

It just isn't relevant to that matter. It doesn't follow from them possessing those abilities as well that they aren't a match for their old companions in battle.



NarutoX28 said:


> There actually was.



No, there wasn't, according to Pain, Zetsu, and Obito.

A fight where three of your paths get killed, and after you catch your opponent with a blindside that takes off their arm they still manage to keep fighting for a time before taking out a path once again is not an easy fight.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Pulverize him with her physical power. Outlast his taxing rebirth jutsu. Melt him with godslug.
> 
> She's got options.
> 
> On the other hand, Orochimaru can't do jack shit unless we're talking Zetsu Orochimaru with his four zombies (that are all probably stronger than him).



Physical power will never work on Orochimaru, the nature of the dude's whole body renders that useless. He'll just recover. 

The slug is a possibility, but Orochimaru isn't a slow guy who can get caught by those as easily as you imply.


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## Bonly (Jun 3, 2015)

I view Sasori as a Mid Kage level ninja along with the likes of Kakuzu or Deidara or Mei while on the otherhand I view all the Sannin to be High Kage level, so I'd say no he isn't on their level.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 3, 2015)

*0ro>Jiraiya=Sasori>Tsunade*

yes, he is & its funny U ask - I always thinf of him as the unofficial fourth san-nin/ yon-nin.

I base this on his ''type'' of portrayal, which is basically: the extreme specialization & extreme expertise of his ninjutsu schematics(if that makes sense)

he is a perdfect paralell to them

+reps, OP


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## Matty (Jun 3, 2015)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> yes, he is & its funny U ask - I always thinf of him as the unofficial fourth san-nin/ yon-nin.
> 
> I base this on his ''type'' of portrayal, which is basically: the extreme specialization & extreme expertise of his ninjutsu schematics(if that makes sense)
> 
> ...



I'm new to this so I assume you are fucking with me


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## Puppetry (Jun 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Sayings like "only another Sannin can deal with a Sannin"/"are the only ones who can fight against the Sannin the Sannin themselves" are in the context of threat to an opponent.



Sayings such as that were meant to collectively hype the Sannin as a cut above everyone else. It says nothing about their internal power dynamics, just as 'only the Sharingan can fight the Sharingan' says nothing about the power dynamics of Sharingan users; it just states that the Sharingan is very powerful.



> Chapter titles like "A three-way deadlock of offense and defense" sure don't sound like they're concerned with abilities outside of combat either.



Or we could look at the _contents_ of the chapter, and see a three-way deadlock between a revitalized by rusty Tsunade, an armless and feverish Orochimaru, and a drugged Jiraiya.



> Saying that Tsunade's skill with deciphering toxins and ability to heal a mass of people simultaneously don't directly translate into fighting someone like Jiraiya is about like saying Jiraiya's ability to infiltrate enemy lines and make toads look like bars in foreign villages doesn't directly translate into fighting someone like Tsunade.



Those abilities aren't comparable in relevance to their respective arsenals or renown. Tsunade's skill crafting antidotes are part of what granted her the title as the greatest medical ninja (which in itself refers to far more than pure battle prowess) during the Second Shinobi War. She saved virtually all the shinobi in Konoha through mass healing to the amazement of many.

Tsunade's support based abilities have contributed more to her standing than Jiraiya's have.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 4, 2015)

They're still in the context of threat level towards an opponent.

If they're all handicapped and yet deadlock that suggests that they're even.

Tsunade being a medical specialist is no excuse to be comparatively weaker in regards to combat ability _(1)_. The title of the chapter Tsunade had her first _fight_ in was "Medical Ninja", and the fanbook uses Tsunade being every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru (obviously meaning they themselves are every bit a match for each other) as the justification for her being the _strongest_ Kunoichi produced by Konoha.

Tsunade is not _feared_ across the globe because she can decipher antidotes, she is feared for the same reason the other Sannin are- how much of a threat she is to someone.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> In tier-list list terms, "Sannin-level" is high end Mid Kage level, or low end High Kage level. So no, Sasori isn't on the same level, as he's probably a bottom end Mid Kage.
> 
> Also stop with all of this 'Tsunade is way weaker than Orochimaru and Jiraiya' tomfoolery, the woman is clearly in the same league in them.​​


It's hard to, based on what we have seen, if not for her specialized medical techniques and super strength, it's difficult to put her in the same class as some jounin. I am willing to go so far as to say that Sasori is on the same level as her but both of them would get his ass handed to him by the other two sannin.


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> It's hard to, based on what we have seen, if not for her specialized medical techniques and super strength, it's difficult to put her in the same class as some jounin. I am willing to go so far as to say that Sasori is on the same level as her but both of them would get his ass handed to him by the other two sannin.



Without Sasori's puppets and poison it's difficult to put him in the same class as some Jounin as well.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Without Sasori's puppets and poison it's difficult to put him in the same class as some Jounin as well.


Yup, precisely, which is why I think it's fair that those two are equal to one another. Neither Tsunade nor Sasori have shown a proper usage of elemental techniques, but Sasori can rely on the Kazekage but even so once he's gone, he's pretty much defenseless.


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yup, precisely, which is why I think it's fair that those two are equal to one another.



Sasori would be left with nothing without those two things, Tsunade would still have Katsuyu along with being able to use four elements so she'd be ahead of him 



> Neither Tsunade nor Sasori have shown a proper usage of elemental techniques,



Tsunade has showed off a Raiton(or something pretty close to it) though not showing it doesn't matter to much as they can still have them. IIRC Kishi didn't give Sasori any of the elements via DB while he gave Tsunade Raitons,Katons,Suitons,and Dotons so yeah



> but Sasori can rely on the Kazekage but even so once he's gone, he's pretty much defenseless.



The Sandaime's a puppet so if we take it out then lolnope.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Sasori would be left with nothing without those two things, Tsunade would still have Katsuyu along with being able to use four elements so she'd be ahead of him
> 
> Tsunade has showed off a Raiton(or something pretty close to it) though not showing it doesn't matter to much as they can still have them. IIRC Kishi didn't give Sasori any of the elements via DB while he gave Tsunade Raitons,Katons,Suitons,and Dotons so yeah
> 
> The Sandaime's a puppet so if we take it out then lolnope.


Lmao, she's never used elements in the manga, otherwise I wouldn't have berated her like I have for these past 6 years. The things in the databook are possible affinities, short of Kakashi or Sasuke, I don't think a single character can realize those affinities she/he has access to.

Also, I completely agree, Sasori has 0 elements on his own but likewise Tsunade has shown 0 elements. That's why I believe shinobi that can use earth, water and/or lightning element should be automatically superior to Sasori. If Tsunade had shown some truly valuable element ninjutsu, I would immediately consider her an equal to Jiraiya/Orochimaru. 

And that jutsu was not listed as a raiton at all in the databook.


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Lmao, she's never used elements in the manga, otherwise I wouldn't have berated her like I have for these past 6 years. The things in the databook are possible affinities, short of Kakashi or Sasuke, I don't think a single character can realize those affinities she/he has access to.
> 
> Also, I completely agree, Sasori has 0 elements on his own but likewise Tsunade has shown 0 elements. That's why I believe shinobi that can use earth, water and/or lightning element should be automatically superior to Sasori. If Tsunade had shown some truly valuable element ninjutsu, I would immediately consider her an equal to Jiraiya/Orochimaru.
> 
> And that jutsu was not listed as a raiton at all in the databook.



Thing is a ninja can only have an affinity for one element(or was it two, I forget). Kakashi himself said that he had an affinity for Raitons but he could also use Suitons and Dotons. Having an affinity for an element just means that they can easily do and/or learn jutsu of said element but they can also learn other element jutsu, it just wouldn't be as easy to learn. So yeah she(along with everyone else) would be able to use said elements.


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## Thunder (Jun 4, 2015)

It's the norm for jōnin to master at least two elements. We were told this in Part II unless I'm thinking of the anime. So Tsunade probably knows some basic elemental jutsu. It's just not something she focuses on because it's not her style.


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2015)

I'm not sure if it was said in part one but it was said in part two


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## Thunder (Jun 4, 2015)

Thanks for the scan. Part II it is.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Thing is a ninja can only have an affinity for one element(or was it two, I forget). Kakashi himself said that he had an affinity for Raitons but he could also use Suitons and Dotons. Having an affinity for an element just means that they can easily do and/or learn jutsu of said element but they can also learn other element jutsu, it just wouldn't be as easy to learn. So yeah she(along with everyone else) would be able to use said elements.


No what I was speaking of was the databook 4, which labels all the elemental affinities each shinobi has, as it stands, despite having four different affinities, she hasn't shown a single one in battle. I don't think she is able to use elemental ninjutsu effectively in battle would be one reason. Either that or I don't think she went through the elemental ninjutsu training, if she did she never got around to fully mastering it. But they would still have to train in order to master these elements, only one barred from that would someone like Kakashi or Sasuke (who have an affinity for all the elements) and can probably reproduce every elemental ninjutsu he's seen at this point barring kekkei genkai's.


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## Matty (Jun 4, 2015)

What I don't understand is how you guys think Sasori is so outclassed as that he has no chance at all to win these fights. I can see him beating all 3. Not saying he will but he has a chance. I think he beats Tsunade more times than not. He can go toe to toe with Oro or he wouldn't have tried to ambush sasori. And Jiraiya probably would take him mor times than not but let's not just say he stomps. To me Sasori is in their class. Which is something I honestly would not say for other Akatsuki members besides Itachi, Obito and Pain. Kisame probably as well.


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> No what I was speaking of was the databook 4, which labels all the elemental affinities each shinobi has, as it stands,despite having four different affinities, she hasn't shown a single one in battle.



Can you show me where it said that the DB list affinities because I thought it just listed the elements they could use?



> I don't think she is able to use elemental ninjutsu effectively in battle would be one reason. Either that or I don't think she went through the elemental ninjutsu training, if she did she never got around to fully mastering it.



During the war we saw multiple people were taught how to do the earth wall on the fly so yeah. She doesn't have to master an element to be able to use a jutsu from said element so she very well could have some that are effectively battle ready.


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## Beyonce (Jun 4, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> What I don't understand is how you guys think Sasori is so outclassed as that he has no chance at all to win these fights. I can see him beating all 3. Not saying he will but he has a chance. I think he beats Tsunade more times than not. He can go toe to toe with Oro or he wouldn't have tried to ambush sasori. And Jiraiya probably would take him mor times than not but let's not just say he stomps. To me Sasori is in their class. Which is something I honestly would not say for other Akatsuki members besides Itachi, Obito and Pain. Kisame probably as well.



Just a question,
how does Sasori intend to deal with Katsuyu?
I highly doubt poison effects Katsuyu.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

Bonly, will respond to you in the morning, too late already going to sleep first.





matty1991 said:


> What I don't understand is how you guys think Sasori is so outclassed as that he has no chance at all to win these fights. I can see him beating all 3. Not saying he will but he has a chance. I think he beats Tsunade more times than not. He can go toe to toe with Oro or he wouldn't have tried to ambush sasori. And Jiraiya probably would take him mor times than not but let's not just say he stomps. To me Sasori is in their class. Which is something I honestly would not say for other Akatsuki members besides Itachi, Obito and Pain. Kisame probably as well.



Sasori attacks Jiraiya, Jiraiya sinks with Doton Yomi Numa...Sasori gets caught puppet gets misbalanced and follow up Rasengan destroys Sasori. Not to mention Gamabunta hasn't been summoned.

Sasori attacks Orochimaru, got him with the poison, Sasori gets closer Orochimaru burps up a new Orochimaru and kills Sasori up close. Not to mention Edo Tensei or Manda.


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## Matty (Jun 4, 2015)

That's acting as if Sasori is a numbskull Shinobi which we all know he's not. He obviously has intel on Oro. Im not saying he whoops ass or anything like that. But you can't even put him in the same ball park? The dude solos countries. I highly doubt he's going to go into a fight and just get trolled. He toyed with his grandma and his edo form is trash. 

And how does he deal with katsuyu? The same way anyone else does, they simply don't she is the queen of solo. 

I was strictly saying as shinobi when it comes to thinking out the battle, having the arsenal, and having the hype and feats he's definitely in that ballpark. Not even a doubt


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> What I don't understand is how you guys think Sasori is so outclassed as that he has no chance at all to win these fights. I can see him beating all 3. Not saying he will but he has a chance. I think he beats Tsunade more times than not. He can go toe to toe with Oro or he wouldn't have tried to ambush sasori. And Jiraiya probably would take him mor times than not but let's not just say he stomps. To me Sasori is in their class. Which is something I honestly would not say for other Akatsuki members besides Itachi, Obito and Pain. Kisame probably as well.



tsunade will easily heal from his poison though. he got no way to stop her or slow her down. been through this already 

his poison has metal traces or I don't know what and it destroys muscle cells. tsunade can heal those while on the run. so sasori is basically a defenceless animal 

Orochimaru, not quite the same issue but a full fledge oro trolls with his superior puppets

jiraiya goes SM and sasori becomes heavily outclassed 

these guys simply have techniques that are well above his. and are much more well rounded 

bar tsunade.

We have no idea under what circumstances he solo'd a country. oro could do that easily...a few ET and he trolls a country

jiraya surprise Sage enhanced YM followed with frog song 


solo'ing a small country full of fodders is no big deal when pre hebi sasuke defeated 1000 ninja without killing them or having a spec of dirt on him


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> That's acting as if Sasori is a numbskull Shinobi which we all know he's not. He obviously has intel on Oro. Im not saying he whoops ass or anything like that. But you can't even put him in the same ball park? The dude solos countries. I highly doubt he's going to go into a fight and just get trolled. He toyed with his grandma and his edo form is trash.
> 
> And how does he deal with katsuyu? The same way anyone else does, they simply don't she is the queen of solo.
> 
> I was strictly saying as shinobi when it comes to thinking out the battle, having the arsenal, and having the hype and feats he's definitely in that ballpark. Not even a doubt



How does he intend to deal with Edo Tensei Hokages?
How does he counter an elemental ninjutsu Jiraiya throws at him?
How does he counter with boss summons, Manda? Bunta? Ken? Hiro?

Sasori is heavily outclassed, I don't think I can put him in the same ballpark as the sannin ever, perhaps Tsunade (and that is a HUGE perhaps) due to her lack of variety in her feats. But that aside, I don't see how he wtf solos Jiraiya or Orochimaru.

Sasori's IC move is to work through Hiruko and Jiraiya's IC move is to summon Gamabunta or use Doton: Yomi Numa. Sasori gets his shit pushed in again. I don't see this ending well for Sasori at all.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 4, 2015)

The argument for Sasori being sannin level would be saying Chiyo was like Sand's Tsunade, and Sasori was a little better than her, so he's sannin material.  But I'd say he's more on their generation's level, as someone put it.



NarutoX28 said:


> Man, but Deidara and Kisame are my fave.
> 
> You can put Kakuzu in the shit tier, but the others? C'mon mane. Not cool.
> 
> ...





> Kakuzu in the shit tier



wat



> middle of akatsuki
> 
> shit tier



wat wat

Most of the Akatsuki are middle of the kage pack.  



> I don't see it as the shit tier man. This is how I rank the Akatsuki:
> 
> Tier I
> Obito
> ...



Pretty much how I rank and rate them.  Glad you addressed that.



> I kinda have trouble placing Zetsu on this list. Not really sure where he should be.



He's simaltaniously the weakest, but also Kaguya spawn who backstabbed Madara, and his abilities are pretty broken on paper, but pretty meh in showing.  His personality also changed to clingy little mama's boy.

I have trouble placing Konan.  She's one of those types that's resistant to death, without actually coming off as strong offensively, and her paper ocean probably makes her jump a tier or two but I'm not sure how she fairs.  Her portrayal ranges from nearly killing Obito, to getting oneshotted by Jiraiya, with having a clone stroll through Konoha somewhere in the middle.   Then she's also Jiraiya's student, and an original member of Akatsuki, so I'm not sure where she's "supposed" to be.


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

yh sasori gets floored

chiyo and sakura did just fine. regardless of how much experience u want to claim chiyo has in terms of fire power the sannin horribly outclass both sakura and chiyo

they will beat sasori to the ground


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 4, 2015)

Sasori beats base jiraiya & Tsunade, loses to 0r0chimaru & has a toss up vs sage jiraiya(ignoring the frog genjutsu dynamic)

he is a perfect paralell to the sannin


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## Thunder (Jun 4, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He's simaltaniously the weakest, but also Kaguya spawn who backstabbed Madara, and his abilities are pretty broken on paper, but pretty meh in showing.  His personality also changed to clingy little mama's boy.
> 
> I have trouble placing Konan.  She's one of those types that's resistant to death, without actually coming off as strong offensively, and her paper ocean probably makes her jump a tier or two but I'm not sure how she fairs.  Her portrayal ranges from nearly killing Obito, to getting oneshotted by Jiraiya, with having a clone stroll through Konoha somewhere in the middle.   Then she's also Jiraiya's student, and an original member of Akatsuki, so I'm not sure where she's "supposed" to be.



Yeah, Konan is another one who can be difficult to place. My gut tells me Konan (sans Paper Ocean) should actually be somewhere in the middle tier, it's just she didn't really have a "proper" fight compared with the other Akatsuki members. So feats wise, I can't see her posing much of a threat to Kisame, Sasori, Deidara, or Kakuzu who hold down the middle tier. In my eyes all four of them are bad match-ups for Konan. 

Jiraiya spat oil at her and that was it. Then there was Obito who just no sells everything with Kamui. I don't feel those showings are enough to accurately place her.

With Paper Ocean Konan could definitely jump up to the first tier.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 4, 2015)

I actually think she's a surprisingly good match up for Kisame and Deidara and Sasori, but Kakuzu is the best kind of counter to her.  But if all her fights come down to counters and Battledome theory, that's still a problem.


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## Thunder (Jun 4, 2015)

Now that I look at it closer, I can see Konan forcing those three into using their best moves since she's so hard to kill. But I don't think she'd win any of those matches most of the time. Still, if Konan is pressuring this group, then she deserves a spot on their tier even if it's at the very bottom. So . . .

*Tier I*
Obito
Pain
Itachi

*Tier II*
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan (no paper ocean)

*Tier III*
Zetsu
Hidan

That's better.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

I would put Sasori at the bottom of the barrel in Tier II, he's can get easily get solo'd by any member of that specific tier (including Paper Ocean Konan).


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## Rocky (Jun 4, 2015)

Konan should at least be able to beat someone on her tier though, because to me a tier consists of a bunch of guys who can compete relatively evenly with each other and who wins is dependent on the match up.

I'd probably go:

Nagato
--
Obito (MS, Rinnegan above Nagato)
Itachi
--
Sasori
Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
--
Konan
--
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Rocky (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I would put Sasori at the bottom of the barrel in Tier II, he's can get easily get solo'd by any member of that specific tier (including Paper Ocean Konan).



Sasori's stronger than Deidara and he'd handle almost everyone else. He'd only lose to billion bombs Konan and possibly Kakuzu.


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Konan should at least be able to beat someone on her tier though, because to me a tier consists of a bunch of guys who can compete relatively evenly with each other and who wins is dependent on the match up.
> 
> I'd probably go:
> 
> ...



Depending on the knowledge she has a decent shot at beating Sasori so I'd say she could move up to their tier if she needs to beat at least one person on her tier



Ryuzaki said:


> I would put Sasori at the bottom of the barrel in Tier II, he's can get easily get solo'd by any member of that specific tier (including Paper Ocean Konan).



Sasori's stronger then Deidara so he wouldn't be at the bottom of the barrel, second bottom if you feel that way but meh


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## Rocky (Jun 4, 2015)

I don't see her beating Sasori. Maybe in like _super_ stacked conditions, but with those you could have Itachi beating Hashirama with Tsukuyomi.

Also what the fuck 

You're a bad copycat


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Sasori's stronger then Deidara so he wouldn't be at the bottom of the barrel, second bottom if you feel that way but meh



I don't see how Deidara loses to Sasori
Time to make a new thread


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 4, 2015)

*1*
Nagato
Rinnegan Obito
*2*

Itachi
0ro
Jiraiya
Sasori
*3*

Tsunade
Kisame
Kakuzu
Deidara
Konan
Zetsu
*4*

Hidan

I think Konan beats deidara more times than not. she and zetsu, like Tsunade are also on that tier because of their support abilities.

Sasori beats everyone below him except kakuzu


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> *1*
> Nagato
> Rinnegan Obito
> *2*
> ...


Wow, I never thought there was so much Sasori wank in the thread.


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## Thunder (Jun 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Konan should at least be able to beat someone on her tier though, because to me a tier consists of a bunch of guys who can compete relatively evenly with each other and who wins is dependent on the match up.
> 
> I'd probably go:
> 
> ...



My definition of a tier is a bit broader than yours, I guess. To me, those on the same tier don't have to be _even_. Just around the same general level. If Konan can force all of them to pull out their big guns, and if Konan can potentially win in some scenarios, then she's around their level in my eyes.

I like to keep it simple with high end, middle end, and low end. But there's nothing wrong with making more tiers like you did.


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't see her beating Sasori. Maybe in like _super_ stacked conditions, but with those you could have Itachi beating Hashirama with Tsukuyomi.



Once she goes paper mode she pretty much walls the main threat of his arsenal which is poison as she doesn't have any blood. She made enough explosive tags that she blew off Tobi's arm so really it's a case of can she get enough explosive tags on Sasori to kill him before she runs out of stamina upon which depending on the knowledge Sasori has, she'd have a decent shot at it.



> Also what the fuck
> 
> You're a bad copycat



wat u say mate? i'll fite u



Ryuzaki said:


> I don't see how Deidara loses to Sasori
> Time to make a new thread



Sasori doesn't need to beat Deidara in a fight to be the stronger of the two but Iron Sand would pretty much do the job.


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## Rocky (Jun 4, 2015)

I did say _relatively_ even, Thunder. Sasori and Deidara can share a tier despite Sasori being the stronger of the two. I guess that's because there are some matches where I'd favor Deidara against someone who'd beat Sasori.

With Konan, I don't see her as the favorite against _anyone_ on the Mid Kage tier.


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## Thunder (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I would put Sasori at the bottom of the barrel  in Tier II, he's can get easily get solo'd by any member of that  specific tier (including Paper Ocean Konan).



I'm not sure about that, Ryu. 

I place Sasori above Deidara because Deidara admitted inferiority to Sasori. There's some debate on this but I think it fits with Sasori's hype.

And I think Sasori would do well against Kisame. Even if Sasori is submerged he doesn't have to breathe, and he can use his propellers to get around easier than most. Being an intelligent puppeteer, Sasori is more tricky than anyone else on his tier. So I think Sasori could lure Kisame into a trap of some sort.

Sasori may not win that bout, but it won't be a _compete_ washout (no pun intended).

*@Rocky*

That's fine. You're entitled to your interpretation of Konan's strength. Mine is different. Again, I don't think Konan has to be the favorite to win or even win at all to placed on the _bottom_ of the middle tier. Which implies Konan is closer to the lower tier than the others, but not quite on that tier either.


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## Turrin (Jun 4, 2015)

The Tiers are realistically this

1. Nagato
-----
1. MS-Obito
-----
1. Kisame [Bijuu Chakra] 
2. Itachi
3. Sasori
-----
1. Kakuzu
2. Deidara
3. Kisame [No Bijuu Chakra]
----
3. Hidan


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 4, 2015)

I favor Sasori vs Kisame because it's one of the grew things Kisame can't RAR through, and I don't see Kisame getting through that without a scratch.


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## Turrin (Jun 4, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I favor Sasori vs Kisame because it's one of the grew things Kisame can't RAR through.


It depends which Kisame. If Kisame has Bijuu Chakra, he is extremely overpowered. I don't think people realize how good of a performance Kisame had against Gai was in retrospect to how powerful Gated-Gai turned out to be.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

@Bonly/Rocky: First off FY both for having the same avatar. And Bonly, I think he's well out of their range as Sasori mosty kept the kazekage in a mid-range field when he fought against Sakura/Chiyo. It's true that he could probably move him, but Sasuke was relatively the same tier speed and Deidara saw him coming each time though. I don't see a blitz happening and I don't see Deidara losing the high ground. Sasori won't be able to defend against his bigger explosions or even his smaller ones.





Thunder said:


> I'm not sure about that, Ryu.
> 
> I place Sasori above Deidara because Deidara admitted inferiority to Sasori. There's some debate on this but I think it fits with Sasori's hype.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Deidara did "admit" inferiority but I believe he was doing that to separate Kakashi and Naruto, so that he could also capture Naruto. But given Deidara's skill set, he naturally solo's most of the Akatsuki members with the exception of Obito and Six Paths of Pain. The other thing is I cannot with good reason buy into the Sasori hype. 

I don't about Kisame, I don't think Sasori has the juice to take on Kisame and win, not only do I think he would get robbed in the fight, but underwater Kisame is pretty much untouchable, he pretty much solo'd Killer Bee in that form. He'll put up a good fight, that much I agree, but in the end, I think he loses to Kakuzu, Kisame, Deidara and Paper Ocean Konan.

I will give Sasori his due, he's probably the most intelligent out of those lot, the only one who could give him a run for his money is probably Kisame or Kakuzu. But of those three, I believe Kakuzu and Sasori are far more book smart than the others. His intelligence, I respect, but I also believe that he needs the guns to back it up.

Sasori, sadly is the Tsunade of the Akatsuki, he's got all of his bases covered except for the one that matter. Outside of the Kazekage, he really lacks tangible fire power, with Deidara we see that in over-abundance. Kisame has is a chakra monster who has multiple jutsu that can debilitate most opponents. Kakuzu's greatest advantage is not only his apparent invulnerability but also his firepower in the form of multiple other elemental jutsu.

I'm sure Sasori can give them a run for their money and probably win in some scenarios but his greatest weakness is the moment he loses the iron sand, he loses greatly in defense and offense. His own body cannot close that gap, as he has shown to lack the firepower to do so.


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## Thunder (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, Deidara did "admit" inferiority but I believe he was doing that to separate Kakashi and Naruto, so that he could also capture Naruto. But given Deidara's skill set, he naturally solo's most of the Akatsuki members with the exception of Obito and Six Paths of Pain. The other thing is I cannot with good reason buy into the Sasori hype.



That's the debate I was talking about. Personally, I don't think Sasori was lying. Aside from that comment, looking at their relationship, Deidara seems to have a great deal of respect for Sasori despite their disagreements on what art is. Almost similar to Kisame's relationship with Itachi.



> I don't about Kisame, I don't think Sasori has the juice to take on Kisame and win, not only do I think he would get robbed in the fight, but underwater Kisame is pretty much untouchable, he pretty much solo'd Killer Bee in that form. He'll put up a good fight, that much I agree, but in the end, I think he loses to Kakuzu, Kisame, Deidara and Paper Ocean Konan.


Sasori has a 5 in stamina and was never shown to be tired in the manga. He's got a lot of juice.

Well, Kisame was known as the primer bijū hunter in a bijū hunting organization. Kisame's geared to handle jinchūriki, so it's no surprise his performance against Killer Bee (who didn't want to fully transform, mind you) was stellar. And in that fight Kisame absorbed a lot of Bee's chakra. Kisame won't be able to get so much from Sasori. And of course, Kisame is just damn strong regardless of match-ups. That's why I tend to place Kisame above Sasori and Deidara overall. 

But my overall point is just that Sasori can hold his own against Kisame, not necessarily that he wins. Because you made it seem like Sasori gets shitted on completely by everyone in that tier. 



> I will give Sasori his due, he's probably the most intelligent out of those lot, the only one who could give him a run for his money is probably Kisame or Kakuzu. But of those three, I believe Kakuzu and Sasori are far more book smart than the others. His intelligence, I respect, but I also believe that he needs the guns to back it up.


Sasori is more of a technical fighter for sure; he doesn't rely on pure power like some others. Iron Sand was something that made the Sandaime Kazekage Suna's strongest, though. That's a point to consider.



> Sasori, sadly is the Tsunade of the Akatsuki, he's got all of his bases covered except for the one that matter. Outside of the Kazekage, he really lacks tangible fire power, with Deidara we see that in over-abundance. Kisame has is a chakra monster who has multiple jutsu that can debilitate most opponents. Kakuzu's greatest advantage is not only his apparent invulnerability but also his firepower in the form of multiple other elemental jutsu.


That's a fair point. Against someone with strong defenses like Konan or Kakuzu, Sasori wouldn't look as good. In other cases, however, Sasori's versatility would come in handy more than a power move. Sasori did take down a country after all. A feat Deidara (someone who has an over-abundance of fire like you said) could also pull off. 



> I'm sure Sasori can give them a run for their money and probably win in some scenarios but his greatest weakness is the moment he loses the iron sand, he loses greatly in defense and offense. His own body cannot close that gap, as he has shown to lack the firepower to do so.


I can agree to that.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 4, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It depends which Kisame. If Kisame has Bijuu Chakra, he is extremely overpowered. I don't think people realize how good of a performance Kisame had against Gai was in retrospect to how powerful Gated-Gai turned out to be.



         .


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## Matty (Jun 4, 2015)

Tsunade will get tanked numerous times. You can say Sakura only dodged because Tsunade taught her the evasive techs but that was chiyo a master pupeteers who knew sasori's movements and unpredictable attack style. I can see Sasori decapitating her or satetsu shigure pulverising her. Sasori was in the same war as them earned a title just like they did. Has impressve feats (can you say this country is fodder with a guarantee?) and yes he's in the ballpark. Battles in general can go a million different ways depending on circumstances. My point is that he belongs in a conversation. No one is taking him down withought high dif unless Tsunade just spams Katsuyu which if that's the case you can jsut say she can beat anyone because katsuyu solos everything.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 4, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Yeah, Konan is another one who can be difficult to place. My gut tells me Konan (sans Paper Ocean) should actually be somewhere in the middle tier, it's just she didn't really have a "proper" fight compared with the other Akatsuki members. So feats wise, I can't see her posing much of a threat to Kisame, Sasori, Deidara, or Kakuzu who hold down the middle tier. In my eyes all four of them are bad match-ups for Konan.
> 
> Jiraiya spat oil at her and that was it. Then there was Obito who just no sells everything with Kamui. I don't feel those showings are enough to accurately place her.
> 
> With Paper Ocean Konan could definitely jump up to the first tier.



 is the thread where Flaming Rain and I came in to say Konan dies, and then changed our minds, if it interests you.


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## Yagura (Jun 5, 2015)

Some serious Sasori underestimation going on here. 

I think what some of you need to realize is that a single poison senbon is more poignant an offense than most everything in Kakuzu, Deidara, and Kisame's arsenals, save for the latter two's trump cards - especially considering how cutting damage tends to be > > > concussive or energy damage in this series.

He also is certainly not lacking defensively, either - between Hiruko and his own puppet body he has better survivability than either Deidara or Kisame. Being almost entirely artificial also gives him perks of being immune to things such as poison, drowning, C4, and perhaps most prudently - Genjutsu, a big unknown for most Shinobi. And infinite physical stamina is a big boon as well.

As for match ups, Kisame'll likely be taken out early on without knowledge and Deidara can be chased into the sky by puppets and his bombs defended against with Satetsu. He'll lose to Kakuzu, though. Bad match up.

And as far as portrayal is concerned... it's no contest really. Defeating the strongest Kage of one of the five great nations and having Deidara, a Kage killer himself, admit inferiority to him puts him solidly above anyone without magic eyes.

Overall Sasori is definitely in the realm of the Sannin - but on the cusp, really.
Perhaps it'd be more accurate to say he forms a bridge bewteen the Akatsuki regulars and the Sannin. Not quite equal to them but above any of his non-ocularly endowed peers.


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## Rocky (Jun 5, 2015)

Yagura said:


> I think what some of you need to realize is that a single poison senbon is more poignant an offense than most everything in Kakuzu, Deidara, and Kisame's arsenals, save for the latter two's trump cards...



That's just silly. If Haku were to coat his Senbon is poison, would he eclipse Kage Mid Tiers in offensive might? 

Now, poisoned _Satetsu_ on the other hand...


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

Thunder said:


> That's the debate I was talking about. Personally, I don't think Sasori was lying. Aside from that comment, looking at their relationship, Deidara seems to have a great deal of respect for Sasori despite their disagreements on what art is. Almost similar to Kisame's relationship with Itachi.
> 
> Sasori has a 5 in stamina and was never shown to be tired in the manga. He's got a lot of juice.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the respect they share is probably because Deidara is so much younger than Sasori. He probably respects him to some degree as a master and sensei of some sorts. I can see him making that comment out purely out of respect for him but I could also see him making that comment at that time to hedge his bets. He seemed real eager to fight Naruto.

No no, I think Sasori will put up a decent fight against any of them, I just see him losing more times than winning. As for taking down a country, I could see Sasori taking down any nation not in the big five. 

His Iron Sand is the best offensive and defensive weapon and while it did make the kazekage the strongest, I don't see Sasori using it as well as the Kazekage did.


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> is the thread where Flaming Rain and I came in to say Konan dies, and then changed our minds, if it interests you.



Thanks, I'll check it out.



Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, the respect they share is probably because Deidara is so much younger than Sasori. He probably respects him to some degree as a master and sensei of some sorts. I can see him making that comment out purely out of respect for him but I could also see him making that comment at that time to hedge his bets. He seemed real eager to fight Naruto.



Seniority in age and in Akatsuki itself is factor too, certainly. 



> No no, I think Sasori will put up a decent fight against any of them, I just see him losing more times than winning. As for taking down a country, I could see Sasori taking down any nation not in the big five.


Alright. I misread you.



> His Iron Sand is the best offensive and defensive weapon and while it did make the kazekage the strongest, I don't see Sasori using it as well as the Kazekage did.


I don't think Iron Sand is that difficult to manipulate. Considering the variety of shapes Sasori formed using Iron Sand, it's safe to say Sasori's mastered it. Also, remember the Sandaime Kazekage _himself _is the medium for the jutsu. He's not removed from the equation entirely.

Theoretically, Sasori can shape Iron Sand into whatever he wants. I think the databook mentions this. That opens the door to a lot of possibilities. Iron Sand is similar to Gaara's sand in that regard. It's power lies in sturdiness and versatility. Couple that with poison and you've got a deadly weapon to much of the verse, especially if Sasori's opponents lack knowledge.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I don't think Iron Sand is that difficult to manipulate. Considering the variety of shapes Sasori formed using Iron Sand, it's safe to say Sasori's mastered it. Also, remember the Sandaime Kazekage _himself _is the medium for the jutsu. He's not removed from the equation entirely.
> 
> Theoretically, Sasori can shape Iron Sand into whatever he wants. I think the databook mentions this. That opens the door to a lot of possibilities. Iron Sand is similar to Gaara's sand in that regard. It's power lies in sturdiness and versatility. Couple that with poison and you've got a deadly weapon to much of the verse, especially if Sasori's opponents lack knowledge.


Personally, I'm not sure what it means for Sasori's character overall, but what I mean to say is that regardless of how Sasori uses the Iron Sand, I don't think he'll ever be truly able to mimic the kazekage. I'm sure he can mold it into whatever he desires as well, but the kazekage, much like Rasa and Gaara had their own unique ways of fighting too. There had to more than just using the iron sand that made him better than the other four.

The way it was used against Sakura showed how deadly of a combination it could be. I'll give him his merits, with that puppet at his becking call, his offense and defense take a huge boost. Outside of Tsunade, I don't see him defeating the previous Gokage, however, I don't think I can say the same for the other members of Akatsuki (e.g. Kisame, Kakuzu and Deidara) as their fights would have more unknowns.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> .


Yes in the KC, but i'm talking in the NBD. People rate the guy bellow the likes of Itachi and the Sannin even after he absorbed nearly all of the Hachibi's chakra.



Rocky said:


> That's just silly. If Haku were to coat his Senbon is poison, would he eclipse Kage Mid Tiers in offensive might?
> 
> Now, poisoned _Satetsu_ on the other hand...


Sadly Haku could have easily defeated War-Arc Sai if his Senbon were poisoned, which is an absolutely dramatic increase in ability from someone who was otherwise effortlessly pwnd, by Wave-Arc KN0-Naruto.

So while he wouldn't have gone up to being above Mid-Kage, that should demonstrated thee absolutely dramatic shift, poisoned weapons can make in the hands of certain shinobi. In Sasori's case he was way fucking better than Haku in everything too.

Not to say I agree that a poisoned Senbon from Sasori is more potent than anything in Deidara, Kakuzu, or Kisame's arsenals, but Sasori's general poison traps and weapons [even leaving 100 Puppets and Satetsu aside] is arguably better than most of there abilities on an individual basis, just like Hidan's Vodoo Ritual and Scythe combo is better than most of those three's abilities individually sans their triumph cards, which Satetsu and 100 Puppets are largely better than [except Kisame when hopped up on Bijuu chakra]


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## Rocky (Jun 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> People rate the guy bellow the likes of Itachi and the Sannin even after he absorbed nearly all of the Hachibi's chakra.



If he's definitively above the Minato/Itachi level, then why do you have him (and them) a tier below MS Obito?

If you think Minato & Obito are a tier above Itachi (which I would disagree with unless he's severely ill) and he belongs with the Sannin & Sasori, then where does Kisame fall?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 5, 2015)

When I used or fought a character in the KC, I tried to brush up on all of their feats and panels. 

What exactly about the Guy fights makes you place Kisame so much higher than others?


----------



## Thunder (Jun 5, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Personally, I'm not sure what it means for Sasori's character overall, but what I mean to say is that regardless of how Sasori uses the Iron Sand, I don't think he'll ever be truly able to mimic the kazekage. I'm sure he can mold it into whatever he desires as well, but the kazekage, much like Rasa and Gaara had their own unique ways of fighting too. There had to more than just using the iron sand that made him better than the other four.



The Sandaime Kazekage himself is generating the Iron Sand via his human puppet body. Because of that, I don't think we should assume there's a big difference between their usage of Iron Sand, strength wise anyway. I'm sure the Sandaime Kazekage has is own Iron Sand fighting style, like you said. 

Still, the Iron Sand kekkei genkai itself in general is what made the Sandaime Kazekage famous in life, according to sources in the manga. So it wouldn't surprise me if Iron Sand was his main weapon. It's not exactly odd for shinobi to focus on honing their kekkei genkai above all else, because kekkei genkai are usually unique and powerful. Deidara's focus is Bakuton, Mei's focus is Yōton     / Futton, Hashirama's focus is Mokuton, Haku's focus is Hyōton, Kimimaro's focus is Shikotsumyaku, and so on. Is it likely the Sandaime Kazekage has some other ninjutsu to supplement his kekkei genkai? Sure. None of them were mentioned by the author, though, so their importance probably doesn't eclipse Iron Sand.



> The way it was used against Sakura showed how deadly of a combination it could be. I'll give him his merits, with that puppet at his becking call, his offense and defense take a huge boost. Outside of Tsunade, I don't see him defeating the previous Gokage, however, I don't think I can say the same for the other members of Akatsuki (e.g. Kisame, Kakuzu and Deidara) as their fights would have more unknowns.


Same here: I don't see Sasori beating any of the previous Gokage consistently. Sasori is strong, but not quite Sannin level in my eyes.


----------



## Puppetry (Jun 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> They're still in the context of threat level towards an opponent.
> 
> If they're all handicapped and yet deadlock that suggests that they're even.



It suggests comparable ability within the context provided, not out of it.



> Tsunade being a medical specialist is no excuse to be comparatively weaker in regards to combat ability _(1)_. The title of the chapter Tsunade had her first _fight_ in was "Medical Ninja"



Both show that medical shinobi can (and should) be capable fighters, which I never argued against. It doesn't mean that she has to be comparable to her teammates combat-wise. Within the 'Neo-Sannin' Sakura certainly isn't and never was. In fact, when Hiruzen made that comparison, she was just about to use her mass healing technique.



> And the fanbook uses Tsunade being every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru (obviously meaning they themselves are every bit a match for each other) as the justification for her being the _strongest_ Kunoichi produced by Konoha.



Could you quote the relevant passage? I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to.



> Tsunade is not _feared_ across the globe because she can decipher antidotes, she is feared for the same reason the other Sannin are - how much of a threat she is to someone.



Which, again, does not imply equality. It implies strength, in a general sense.

Let's not over-emphasize. Tsunade has received praise for her combat skills - I'm not denying that - but she has received even _more_ praise for her outstanding medical expertise, and some of her greatest feats have little to do with the scenario we're discussing.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 5, 2015)

I didn't say that showed that she's comparable to her teammates combat wise.

My point is just that medical expertise doesn't preclude combat ability, and thus the fact that Tsunade also earned fame as a medical specialist doesn't mean that she's inferior in regards to threat towards an opponent.

Her status as a medical specialist isn't grounds to subtract from prowess in another regard, so it doesn't go- "They're considered to be equals, but Tsunade can decipher antidotes, therefore she must be weaker than the other two as a combatant."



Puppetry said:


> It suggests comparable ability within the context provided, not out of it.



The context being that mutual handicaps changed nothing about their relationship.

Thank you Orochimaru.



> Could you quote the relevant passage? I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to.



I don't have a scan but the quote I'm talking about reads.

_*"A lonely blossom that flowered in Konoha!* Tsunade is the strongest Kunoichi in Konoha history, every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Her whereabouts -- indeed, her survival -- are currently a mystery, but her name blossoms in the noble inclusion of the shinobi.​_


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> When I used or fought a character in the KC, I tried to brush up on all of their feats and panels.
> 
> What exactly about the Guy fights makes you place Kisame so much higher than others?


The size and scope of his attacks. The fact that he kept up with 7-Gated-Gai activating Daikodan as quickly as Gai executed Hidora. Also not just against Gai, but what he showed against B after absorbing a bunch of Hachibi chakra, like being faster than V2-B and forming such a massive water dome.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 5, 2015)

Scope is fine.

Guy reacted to Daikodan iirc.

Kisame didn't outspeed Bee until Bee was in the water, and ninja don't typically move nearly as fast in the water as on land.


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## Turrin (Jun 6, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Scope is fine.
> 
> Guy reacted to Daikodan iirc.


Nope they cast both techniques at the same time:
Link removed



> Kisame didn't outspeed Bee until Bee was in the water, and ninja don't typically move nearly as fast in the water as on land.


B was moving insanely fast underwater. Could the water have slowed him down, sure, but that applies to anyone inside Kisame's Water-Dome anyway, so that is the circumstances anyone would be up against. So the fact that he could completely outspeed V2-B is still quite impressive and critical in determining his strength


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## Puppetry (Jun 6, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> My point is just that medical expertise doesn't preclude combat ability, and thus the fact that Tsunade also earned fame as a medical specialist doesn't mean that she's inferior in regards to threat towards an opponent.



That's exactly what it means. The majority of Tsunade's hype being markedly different from her peers' suggests the skills that earned her that reputation are also different. Medical expertise may not preclude combat ability, but it places the emphasis somewhere else: healing. 



> The context being that mutual handicaps changed nothing about their relationship.



Mutual handicaps do not imply a similar degree of deterioration. It's a variable that can't be quantified. 



> I don't have a scan.



Then you'll understand why I'm doubtful when my searching (both before you posted the actual quote and after) led me to nowhere else except to various posts where you mention it. 

This is the equivalent of citing a feat and then failing to produce the corresponding manga page.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 6, 2015)

Kisame's faster in the water because he's a shark.


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2015)

Isnt tsunade a good counter to kisame?
as she barely uses chakra based attacks to fight and is solely taijutsu

she should beat him in a fight tbh


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## Turrin (Jun 6, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kisame's faster in the water because he's a shark.


And Kisame w/ Bijuu Chakra can make the entire battlefield in water, so this is a moot point


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 6, 2015)

I'm not getting into match ups in detail but I think you can claim him to be Sannin  tier. Probably doesn't quite have their reputation but he'd fit somewhere in their rank of power.
I'd say he is weaker than Jiraiya and Oro but stronger than Tsunade.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 6, 2015)

Shoten Kisame is never not in the water.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 6, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> That's exactly what it means. The majority of Tsunade's hype being markedly different from her peers' suggests the skills that earned her that reputation are also different.



"That reputation" is being the Slug Princess of the strongest ninja who strike fear into the hearts of enemies across the globe (Sannin). It's about strength, and it has always been about strength since Hanzō gave them the title of Sannin in the first place _because_ he could see that the three of them were _strong_ _(1)_.

People's fear and caution of them arises _from their reputation as members of the Sannin_. Hence when Kakashi tried to threaten Orochimaru he started with _"even if you are one of those Sannin"_, Ebisu said they needed Jiraiya's strength because _"against one of those Sannin another one is needed"_, Kisame said the titles of Konoha's Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist paled in comparison when their enemy _"was one of the legendary Sannin"_, when Kabuto was amazed Tsunade had such power despite having been retired for two decades he said _"so this is the power of the Sannin"_, Obito said "_the Sannin_" Jiraiya lived up to that reputation if even Pain had issues with him, etc.

That reputation has nothing to do with deciphering antidotes or revolutionizing the medical field; she may be famous for her ability to do those things _as well_ but that _isn't_ what earned her the title of Sannin and where her tales of heroism that echo on the battlefield come from.

Tsunade isn't like Sakura who sucked before she finally found her niche in medicine and then took off from there; she was always a prodigy. It's why we see that baby Tsunade was talented enough to snatch one of the bells from Hiruzen _(2)_. She didn't even start off the healer, as Orochimaru indicates in chapter 154 that it was the loss she experienced _during the war_ that motivated her to become a medical ninja, and _Tsunade's own view_ that being the medic is no excuse to let your prowess on the battlefield be neglected is probably the explanation for why when they were in Tanzaku Town Jiraiya said that nobody stood shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to either battle _or_ medical treatment. The signature boss summoning Tsunade is tied to has its own healing abilities yet it can also _fight_ on equal footing with the signature boss summons the other two Sannin are tied to that don't .

So, if medical expertise itself doesn't preclude combat ability we're going to be left with no good reason to consider Tsunade as the weak-link combat wise that compensates by being an amazing healer. Not when we get plural and indiscriminate statements like "are the only ones who can fight against the three Sannin the Sannin themselves", suggesting _any_ Sannin is sufficient to combat another, which naturally only makes sense given that they're comparable. They certainly can be granted Tsunade is just the powerful ninja that, not thinking medical ninja status gave her a reason to neglect her fighting skills, simply became a dual-functioning unit when she took up medical Ninjutsu.

She is never portrayed as a weaker fighter than Jiraiya and Orochimaru by virtue of being the medic.



> Mutual handicaps do not imply a similar degree of deterioration.



And the point of Orochimaru's "_even with_ both of us having handicaps" comment is that things had _remained the same as they had been before they were ever handicapped_. What happened while they were handicapped is what would have happened without those handicaps, so if they deadlock then, they'd do it again when healthy.



> Then you'll understand why I'm doubtful when my searching (both before you posted the actual quote and after) led me to nowhere else except to various posts where you mention it.



I guess.

The quote is from one of the guidebooks authored by Kishi- the Scroll of Soldiers fanbook.



That's where I read it at, so it _is_ there whether that book's contents are available online or not. If _you_ wanna order it only to find out it says what I told you it did, then you can, but I'm not about to just so I can fight with my printer to eventually get somebody on a forum a scan.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 6, 2015)

I'm surprised at myself for never bookmarking the besto translation where Jiraiya says Tsunade was peerless in combat and medicine.  Or equal in combat and medicine.  Or whatever it said which stated that she's just as good at healing as face punching, and she's the best at healing.  

That's pretty consistently been a point Kishi's made, from Tsunade's introduction, down to her fight with Madara, when he doubted her combat ability for being a medic, and as Senju, and then retracted both statements.  Also for being a woman, but I'm sure he's just a product of his time.

I also found this.  Naruto was able to use his 2.0 speed to consistently evade Kiba's 3.5 speed attacks.  A tier and a half gap at least, if we don't factor in food pills.  I forgot focusing chakra to your feet made you faster than your generic speed stat, outside of shunshin.  It's a helpful trick for those who's base speed isn't stellar.


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2015)

I think people consider tsunade weaker because her skill set is limited. yet they forget out of jiriaya and orochimaru
she is by far the most lethal in cqc. 

1 punch can kill 90% of the verse, while jiriaya or orochimaru must use 1 jutsu or the other to actually achieve the same result 

tsunade way of fighting bar her healing also means she can fight for hours at max level since she is barely using any chakra to actually attack 

that's something people should look at. it isn't just abilities but also the ability to fight at 100% for an extended period of time

just think about how strong itachi would be if he had barely any limit or draw back to his susanoo usage

tsunade has no draw back to her entire offensive arsenal


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 7, 2015)

Honestly, if we go by feats and what she has shown, I would consider her on the same level as Tsunade but far below the other two. I don't doubt Tsunade's strength, but I think in terms overall strength and power, she's far below the other two and I believe the same thing about Sasori.


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Honestly, if we go by feats and what she has shown, I would consider her on the same level as Tsunade but far below the other two. I don't doubt Tsunade's strength, but I think in terms overall strength and power, she's far below the other two and I believe the same thing about Sasori.



what makes her far below though?
is it her lack of versatility? because A nor obito aren't more versatile than tsunade yet those 2 are easily on the same level as jiriaya or orochimaru if not above 

having 100 jutsu is nice and all but 90% of jiraiya arsenal is far less lethal to anyone than tsunade 1 punch 

in short in cqc which is a situation she can easily find herself in she clearly and horribly exceeds both 

Yes she lacks edo tensei or things like SM. but I don't know any ninja one can claim jiraiya or orochimaru clearly beat that she cant 

think about it. put jiraiya or orochimaru in the situations she has found herself in and they would fair far worse

jiriaya vs 5 susanoo clones or orochimaru vs 5 susanoo clones. jiraiya wont last long at all.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> what makes her far below though?
> is it her lack of versatility? because A nor obito aren't more versatile than tsunade yet those 2 are easily on the same level as jiriaya or orochimaru if not above
> 
> having 100 jutsu is nice and all but 90% of jiraiya arsenal is far less lethal to anyone than tsunade 1 punch
> ...



At full power and unrestricted, Orochimaru is obviously the strongest, but Jiraiya in terms of raw strength is on her level with SM. He's had less feats but they have been nothing short of superhuman strength and probably much stronger than Naruto was in SM when he fought Pain.

*Jiraiya vs. 5 Susano'o*
Jiraiya can summon the Gama Trio to buy time to enter SM and use other techniques to buy time such as Yomi Numa. Once entered in SM, he can create clones to keep them busy and Frog Song should paralyze all the Susano'o clones, perhaps even the real Madara. However, which way you dice it, that strategy alone is better than what Tsunade and co. were doing.

*Orochimaru vs. 5 Susano'o*
Fares much better than all three due to ET Hokages and much has the highest success rate. Hashirama, alone was enough to push Madara to PS, with the backing of Hiruzen, Tobirama and Kyuubi Mode Minato ? they proceed to rape and seal Madara away. If the need arises, he can also summon Manda and other large snakes that could tie up the clone for a moment, while he implements another strategy. 

Tsunade, with the support of the Gokage were collectively left for dead. Jiraiya would probably still lose to the real Madara, however, his fighting style and skill set give him a higher probability that Madara loses when you compare it to Tsunade.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2015)

Kicking out eyeballs is a drastically lesser feat than disintegrating someone.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Jiraiya would probably still lose to the real Madara



Probably probably shouldn't be there.


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Isnt tsunade a good counter to kisame?
> as she barely uses chakra based attacks to fight and is solely taijutsu
> 
> she should beat him in a fight tbh



Actually it's proven in the Databook that Tsunade uses Chakra for her strength.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Tsunade's natural strength is a problem for Samehada.


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade's natural strength is a problem for Samehada.



Samehada can self repair after absorbing chakra. I mean it got away with Bijuu Lariat and Kisame kicking it, who in base is a power house in strength.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

The amount of chakra in Tsunade's fist is likely not comparable to the tails of chakra B wears as a cloak.


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## Jad (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The amount of chakra in Tsunade's fist is likely not comparable to the tails of chakra B wears as a cloak.



I'm pretty sure Samehada not only absorbs the chakra in Tsunade's arm/fist, but her own chakra pool that supplies it. I remember when Aoba stabbed Kisame with two Kunai's to paralyze him, and instead absorbed not just the technique's chakra, but enough of Aoba's own supply to exhaust him.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 8, 2015)

Samehada takes longer to absorb Chakra that isn't already manifested as an aura or shroud.

The damage will probably already be done by the time it starts....meaning it won't ever start, because it'll be dead. Or Kisame will be dead.


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2015)

I just want to add here that DBIV says Sasori can control 100 puppets with his finger tips, not just his core. Which means Sasori could have used 200 puppets if he wanted to. Or Produce 100 chakra threads to attack with from his hands


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Link?    ^


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I just want to add here that DBIV says Sasori can control 100 puppets with his finger tips, not just his core. Which means Sasori could have used 200 puppets if he wanted to. Or Produce 100 chakra threads to attack with from his hands


You sure it wasn't a figure of speech? It doesn't make much sense.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Samehada takes longer to absorb Chakra that isn't already manifested as an aura or shroud.
> 
> The damage will probably already be done by the time it starts....meaning it won't ever start, because it'll be dead. Or Kisame will be dead.



As demonstrated when it only cut Itachi's fireball in half.

Besides that, it's not like Guy mentioned all his chakra getting drained when he kicked Samehada.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The amount of chakra in Tsunade's fist is likely not comparable to the tails of chakra B wears as a cloak.


Let's also not forget it ripped through Asuma's chakra blades.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 8, 2015)

^When did that happen? Iirc Kisame simply overpowered Asuma.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2015)

^ Same.  Hien was still intact.


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> You sure it wasn't a figure of speech?


No the language used has it as a statement. Here's my translations and I strive to be as literal as possible, so I'd put it as a figure of speech if it was:

"He can operate 100 puppets from the chakra threads coming from his finger tips"



> It doesn't make much sense.


Don't see why not.


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## Veracity (Jun 8, 2015)

I'm pretty sure Tsuande is better than Kisame in taijustu, and unlike Gai she wouldn't cringe at the pain of Samehada attacking her after being disarmed. If she can disarm kisame, she would pretty much beat him after that. Though I dont think Samehada is fast enough to absorb the chakra in Tsuandes blows before it's released. I think Preta's absorption is quicker and stronger.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No the language used has it as a statement. Here's my translations and I strive to be as literal as possible, so I'd put it as a figure of speech if it was:
> 
> "He can operate 100 puppets from the chakra threads coming from his finger tips"
> 
> ...


It directly contradicts what was previously stated about Sasori.



> Red Secret Technique: Performance* of a Hundred Puppets (赤秘技・百機の操演, Akahigi: Hyakki no Souen)
> Ninjutsu, S-rank, Offensive, Defensive, All ranges
> User: Sasori
> 
> ...


Assuming Sasori can use that method with his human body - there would be no fingers involved.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> It directly contradicts what was previously stated about Sasori.
> 
> Assuming Sasori can use that method with his human body - there would be no fingers involved.


I don't see why it needs to contradict anything. Back in the days of Monzemon and Chiyo the limit was 10 Puppets, 1 per finger. Than Sasori at some point learned to use 100 through his core, breaking this limit. And than even later he improved even more learning to use Akahigi: Hyakki no Souen through his finger tips.

And ether way DBIV is more recent than DBIII so if Kishi wishes to retcon DBIII we should accept that as cannon now.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

Sasori breached the limit of 10 puppets by using his core. There is no need for him to try and replicate that using his fingers. Like no point at all.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Sasori breached the limit of 10 puppets by using his core. There is no need for him to try and replicate that using his fingers. Like no point at all.


Except that he could than use 200 puppets. Through his Fingers and Core. That seems like a pretty big reason to me.


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## Icegaze (Jun 9, 2015)

Jad said:


> Actually it's proven in the Databook that Tsunade uses Chakra for her strength.



does her chakra leak out of her body that samehada can absorb it?

cuz when byakuyo is released she isnt focusing chakra into her feet or arms anymore to strike hard

she hard counters  kisame


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## Icegaze (Jun 9, 2015)

ah that fan fic 
when sasori on panel stated 100 puppet jutsu was his strongest jutsu 

if he could use 200 he wouldnt have said that


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## FlamingRain (Jun 9, 2015)

> Except that he could than use 200 puppets. Through his Fingers and Core. That seems like a pretty big reason to me.



It seems more reasonable that he would just try attaching more strings to his core than use 100 with his hands, though, doesn't it?


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It seems more reasonable that he would just try attaching more strings to his core than use 100 with his hands, though, doesn't it?


There's probably a limit to how many puppets he can control with his core, otherwise he'd be able to control all 298 off his puppets at once. So probably he can only control 100 with his core and than using his hands allowed him to control another 100. I imagine Sasori was always looking for ways to increase the amount of puppets he could control at once as that is a puppet users pride.


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## Matty (Jun 9, 2015)

Can we all agree at least, he is top 2 (with Gaara, arguably stronger) of his village ever, The greatest Puppet Master in the verse ever (Sorry Kankuro) and at least in the ballpark of the Sannin. I don't really see any of the Sannin getting out of a fight with him not being high dif (besides maybe Oro with ET)


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## Sadgoob (Jun 9, 2015)

Greatest puppet master ever for sure.

IMO Rasa edges him out too though with the flash giant gold wave.


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## Matty (Jun 9, 2015)

I don't see how. Iron Sand would destroy that sand. IMO Gaara was far above Rasa and Sasori could possibly beat Gaara depending on how well his defense deals with Satetsu. Satetsu Shigure and other projectiles could easily bypass his sand if Sasori is smart and unpredictable enough. Plus Gaara really has no endgame except crush him under sand, he can always eject his heart into another. But it is a bit convoluted after that because unless Satetsu gets the job done I don't see sasori having anything else. 

Gaara probably takes that just for the fact he's a good counter.

But to my original point, Gaara is also far above Rasa, so I would sill put him above that. I don't see how Rasa can be his level, is Rasa Akatsuki or Sannin level?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 9, 2015)

The reason I rate Rasa higher than Gaara and Sasori is the speed at which his power is mobilized compared to theirs. Gaara needs to grind, and is limited to his gourd when indoors. Sasori needs to summon the Kazekage puppet, and even then, he doesn't go straight to using Iron Sand and attacks enemies with its blades.

Yes, Gaara can best his old man in a desert or after a minute of grinding sand, and Sasori can beat him when he's out of Hiruko and summons the Kazekage and uses the Iron Sand, but Rasa's _opening_ move is to clap his hands and bury his enemies in metal that he controls. He goes from 0 to 100 in no time flat.​


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## Puppetry (Jun 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It's about strength, and it has always been about strength since Hanzō gave them the title of Sannin in the first place _because_ he could see that the three of them were _strong_ _(1)_.
> 
> People's fear and caution of them arises _from their reputation as members of the Sannin._



I'm talking about the Sannin themselves and their individual reputation, not the title itself. The hype of a group, living up to a group title, or have abilities reminiscent of a group still does not imply internal equality.

This is why Kabuto can praise an unquestionably weaker, rusty Tsunade with the title of Sannin. Or why Shikamaru and Asuma could stand in awe at the power of Akatsuki (Hidan) without directly comparing him to other Akatsuki members. Or why statements like only the Sharingan can fight the Sharingan can be made without being a judgement on the power of Sasuke, Itachi, or Kakashi.



> She didn't even start off the healer, as Orochimaru indicates in chapter 154 that it was the loss she experienced _during the war_ that motivated her to become a medical ninja.



He indicates the losses Tsunade experienced during the war are what motivated her to revolutionize the medical shinobi system, not become a medical ninja.

That interpretation doesn't even make sense since one of Tsunade's losses was Dan, who she failed to save with her already-legendary medical techniques.

It's ultimately an irrelevant point regardless. Innovative use of medical jutsu is what largely defines Tsunade's arsenal. Whatever prodigal talent Tsunade has otherwise isn't (for the most part) expressed in her abilities. 



> What happened while they were handicapped is what would have happened without those handicaps, so if they deadlock then, they'd do it again when healthy.



A statement made to Jiraiya, whose neck Orochimaru had just bitten. Orochimaru was saying that he had won/been stronger than Jiraiya before, and his current condition didn't alter that. This is irrelevant to a deadlock, and (more importantly) irrelevant to Tsunade.



> If _you_ wanna order it only to find out it says what I told you it did, then you can, but I'm not about to just so I can fight with my printer to eventually get somebody on a forum a scan.



I'm not going to order it for the same reason you aren't: it isn't worth it. Nor will just take your word for it, as I already outright disagree with your recollection of several manga events.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

To Strategoob's credit, the Data-book makes it sound like Karura save Gaara from being defeated by his dad, so perhaps Rasa was indeed still stronger than his son. But against Strategoob's point the DB also continues to hype the "transcendency" of Sandaime-Kazekage and it is clear that Kishi still considers him the strongest-kazekage. Sasori being even stronger than that, places him well above Rasa and no narrow minded reasoning about Gold-Dust Tsunami's changes that.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 10, 2015)

Strat likes shiny things too much. Rasa is as location-dependent as Gaara if not more. He brought Gold from the underground. Different location - different amount of gold. And 3rd KK was still called strongest after Rasa's reign.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

Rasa being definitively under the Third Kazekage, who himself lost to Sasori with no Third Kazekage Puppet, really hurts him. There's no way you can be seen as an upper end Mid Kage if Sasori can probably demolish you.


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Rasa being definitively under the Third Kazekage, who himself lost to Sasori with no Third Kazekage Puppet, really hurts him. There's no way you can be seen as an upper end Mid Kage if Sasori can probably demolish you.


Or Sasori is just that strong.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

Upper Mid Kages don't demolish other upper Mid Kages.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2015)

Rasa is fodder. He was offpaneled and his corpse was left to rot in a fucking ditch in the middle of nowhere.

Sasori probably ambushed 3rd Kazekage with a poisoned sandwitch and some other shit. Its offpanel, so no one cares anyways. Kakuzu fought Hashirama. Hanzo off paneled Sannin, etc.

On panel showings always trump off panel hype.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

if we look at their techniques how does kazekage puppet and 100 puppet jutsu compare to things such as 

Sage mode, yamata no jutsu, edo tensei, byakuyo 

i think the sannin have more hax and stronger techniques essentially 

There isnt a ninja in NV that sasori can deal with that these guys cant 

*Note: poison: orochimaru got poison as well * through snake hands or manda more likely orochimaru poisons you than sasori in my opinion


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Upper Mid Kages don't demolish other upper Mid Kages.


Depends how you define the tiers. Rasa is probably Low-Mid-Kage after reading DBIV. Sandaime-Kazekage is probably Mid-Mid-Kage, and Sasori is High-Mid-Kage.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Depends how you define the tiers. Rasa is probably Low-Mid-Kage after reading DBIV. Sandaime-Kazekage is probably Mid-Mid-Kage, and Sasori is High-Mid-Kage.



I agree with that. That's why I said Rasa wasn't an upper end Mid Kage.

Rasa would be near Mei.

Sandaime Kazekage would be near Kakuzu. (?)

Sasori would be near Mu or the Sannin.

Then you breech High Kage with Minato, MS Obito, B, etc.


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 10, 2015)

Rasa is underrated here to me he's not far off from the other Edo Kage that was resurrected , Gaara and Sasori are in the same tier as those other guys 

But Sannin level is murky because the Sannin's strength has fluctuated so much but at their best I think Sasori is an inch below them


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I agree with that. That's why I said Rasa wasn't an upper end Mid Kage.
> 
> Rasa would be near Mei.
> 
> ...



I'd saya Rasa is near War-Arc Gaara. Gaara beat him pretty quickly, but he had the terrain advantage and the DB makes it clear he had help from his mother Karura's spirit. Not sure who is better.

Sandaime-Kazekage is probably along the same lines as Nindaime-Mizukage and Mu. Some of the best Kages from their villages, but not thee best.

Than I'd place Sasori, Jiraiya, Minato, and Itachi around the same general "level", with Edo-Itachi  and Minato edging it as overall stronger than those 2. Orochimaru and Tsunade's level fluctuate dramatically from well beneath that "level" to well above it, so I wouldn't use them as place holders.


High-Mid-Kage: Sasori, Jiraiya, Minato, Itachi, etc....
Mid-Mid-Kage: Sandaime-Kazekage, Yondaime-Mizukage, Mu, etc..
Low-Mid-Kage: Rasa, Gaara, etc...


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

That list is _okay._ I really don't see Sasori sharing a tier with S/T masters like Minato & Obito.

Kishimoto really should've flashed back to Sasori's fight with the 3rd so we could've seen the guy do something truly impressive.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2015)

Who's Rasa?  Sounds like some fodder scrub who didn't get a name until the final databook.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2015)

^
Someone gets it.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

My thoughts on all of your critiques:

A. "Sandaime Hokage was the greatest Hokage" was commonly thought.

B. Minato would beat Hiruzen.

C. _We don't know how_ Sasori beat the Sandaime Kazekage.

D. Sasuke was thought to "beat" Zabuza and Orochimaru.

These are my issues with Sasori > > 3rd > > Rasa

Assuming I wasn't mistaken about the gold wave being summoned, I say:

Rasa > Sasori with the 3rd being an unknown.

That said, I still respect Sasori more for being a sexy genius.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Its awful when people think sasori can be on the same level as minato. When even people such as A thought minato was the stuff of legend, so did jiraiya btw


who ever believed sasori to be something of legend?

analysing the jutsu sasori best ability 100 puppets, is still well inferior to ET or byakuyo or sage mode 

he mid tier at the very best while the sannin are high tier


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Its awful when people think sasori can be on the same level as minato. When even people such as A thought minato was the stuff of legend, so did jiraiya btw



To be fair,  

I'm sure Sasori's a legend to puppet users and his sensei.

Just like Minato's a legend to speedsters and his sensei.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> To be fair,
> 
> I'm sure Sasori's a legend to puppet users and his sensei.
> 
> Just like Minato's a legend to speedsters and his sensei.



my point is kishi the author never mentioned sasori as being on some legendary level 

the only people mentioned in such a manner 

were 

hashirama, madara, minato, kin gin (oddly enough), nagato

no one else has had the title legend attached to their name

Also while sasori Is strong truth is his means of attack isn't very effective when compared to the sannin 

the level they operate at seems to be quite above. I mean whats sasori to do against SM jiraiya for example?

sasori can at best only draw with orochimaru 

while I believe tsunade cant loose to him if she wanted to


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## Kai (Jun 10, 2015)

Sasori is a legend for the paradigm of power concerning puppet users and Kazekage, in other words accolades strictly on the Sunagakure lands. He may be the most powerful shinobi aside from Gaara to emerge from Sunagakure. However, that's where things end for Sasori.

He doesn't possess the international fame the legendary Sannin do despite what he's done and there lies one discrepancy. While defeating the strongest Kazekage is enormous hype for Sasori, it places him in the paramount position concerning the Sand Village, which has notably been the weakest village in Kage strength and tailed beast military power. 

Basically I'm saying Sasori's hype is nearly completely confined within Sunagakure's borders, and that's why it doesn't translate and apply to other high tier characters and why Sasori fails to measure up to their strength as the series progresses.

What does being stronger than the strongest Kazekage mean in relation to Jiraiya or Orochimaru, exactly? The Kazekage are the most poorly treated Kage of the major villages in the series, so how do you think that would alter reader's perception on relative power levels?


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasori is a legend for the paradigm of power concerning puppet users and Kazekage, in other words accolades strictly on the Sunagakure lands. He may be the most powerful shinobi aside from Gaara to emerge from Sunagakure. However, that's where things end for Sasori.
> 
> He doesn't possess the international fame the legendary Sannin do despite what he's done and there lies one discrepancy. While defeating the strongest Kazekage is enormous hype for Sasori, it places him in the paramount position concerning the Sand Village, which has notably been the weakest village in Kage strength and tailed beast military power.
> 
> ...



perfect post. Ill certainly rep you 

even when we consider the whole kage killing achievement

oro killed saru and rasa. Rasa so badly It was off panelled 

Sasori is strong where the weakest village is concerned but outside those confines, his jutsu and hype are lacklustre 

when you got someone like sakura reading your techniques, you know they in need of improvement

sakura will never be reading frog katas, or orochimaru surprise kusanagi attacks


----------



## Umbrella (Jun 10, 2015)

Didn't Kakashi know Sasori by his reputation?


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

no he did not 
not that I recall anywayz


----------



## Umbrella (Jun 10, 2015)

Maybe it was in the anime?

He says either "so this is Sasori of the Red Sand" or "so this is the legendary puppet master".


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

Should also be noted "international" fame was achieved by war heroes.

Sasori's feats were off the radar, as were Itachi's, Nagato's, etc.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2015)

Itachi was still famous for killing the Uchiha clan.  Nagato had Rinnegan, which is instant respect.


----------



## Umbrella (Jun 10, 2015)

Anyway concerning the topic - if you examine Sasori's hype and character you'll find he's basically Sand Orochimaru; which was very obviously intentional on Kishi's part.

Both killed the third Kage of their respective village, who were both said to be the strongest. Both were stated be capable of soloing a country. Both became obsessed with immortality after the death of their parents, and both gave up their humanity in order to attain it. Both take the power of others as their own, with human puppets and body snatching respectively.  Both are associated with a venomous animal. And to top it all off they were even partners in Akatsuki. 

From that, I could definitely buy Kishimoto intending for us to see him in a similar light as the Sannin. Now being from a foreign village and having far less of a presence in the plot - he'd still lose out to them, but it's enough at least to put him a cut above the other Akatsuki regulars imo.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That list is _okay._ I really don't see Sasori sharing a tier with S/T masters like Minato & Obito.
> 
> Kishimoto really should've flashed back to Sasori's fight with the 3rd so we could've seen the guy do something truly impressive.



I used to think Minato was stronger, but he has a huge weakness in a lack of offensive abilities.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I used to think Minato was stronger, but he has a huge weakness in a lack of offensive abilities.



So do Tobirama & Obito, and I consider them the same tier. Though I guess you could say that Obito can bypass that here in the BD since he wins by ring-out. 

A slit throat can still kill most people, and Minato likely had _some_ way to deal with tanks. Otherwise, guys like Ay would tank all of his shit and outlast him instead of calling him unsurpassable. That's my take on it.


----------



## Ersa (Jun 11, 2015)

With all due respect I cannot buy into this Rasa hype.

If he produced a son like Gaara then he can't be anything above low Kage.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> My thoughts on all of your critiques:
> 
> A. "Sandaime Hokage was the greatest Hokage" was commonly thought.


 Time passed. New statements appeared about Hokages. No statements about Kazekage.



Strategoob said:


> B. Minato would beat Hiruzen.


 Sarutobi at his peak? We don't know for certain how the fight between them would go.



Strategoob said:


> C. _We don't know how_ Sasori beat the Sandaime Kazekage.


 Yes... But you have to consider that he pulled that off with Sunagakure having no idea what happened. He apparently infiltrated a Hidden Village, killed a Kage swiftly and stealthily enough to not raise any alarms and left without a trace. Leaving the whole village dumbfounded. 



Strategoob said:


> D. Sasuke was thought to "beat" Zabuza and Orochimaru.


 What a weak point to use... Sasori himself said that he killed Kazekage. Completely different from people hearing that Sasuke was in a team that killed Zabuza.



Strategoob said:


> These are my issues with Sasori > > 3rd > > Rasa
> 
> Assuming I wasn't mistaken about the gold wave being summoned, I say:
> 
> ...


Rasa being off paneled by Orochimaru(with not a single indication that it was a close fight) and him being placed lower than 3rd KK(without any new info that could retcon that) is enough to safely place him below Sasori.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So do Tobirama & Obito, and I consider them the same tier. Though I guess you could say that Obito can bypass that here in the BD since he wins by ring-out.
> .


Obito doesn't as Kamui warp is a GG to anyone other than Kakashi. 

Tobirama I agree is in a similar position and why I don't think he is above that "level" ether. Though in Tobirama's case he has some upside potential with Edo-Tensei and their usage of Tandem Explosive Tags.




> A slit throat can still kill most people, and Minato likely had _some_ way to deal with tanks.


Having some way to deal with tanks and having a good way are two different things. Most tanks Minato can take down by barraging them with Rasengan, Senpo-Rasengan, and FCD over and over again. For all the others he can take almost all of them out with Shiki Fuujin. However nether way as all that "great". Having to barrage someone over and over again with attacks, requires Minato to have to mark them and than gives them time to pull out their own techniques in response when the barrage begins to happen, and it simply won't work against the upper echelon of durability enemies or those with good shields. Shiki Fuujin of course costs Minato his life, causing any fight he's in to end in a draw.



> Otherwise, guys like Ay would tank all of his shit and outlast him instead of calling him unsurpassable. That's my take on it


Ei's statement was more about Minato's potential. Ei believe Minato had the potential to never be surpassed and become the GoaT destined child. Naruto's kind words aside, that never really transpired as Minato, in heroic fashion, sacrificed himself to stop the Demon-Fox stopping his growth and it was really Naruto and Nagato who were the destined "children".

As far as Minato vs Ei goes. I think people fall into the same traps as Itachi vs Orochimaru there. As the fight between Minato and Ei is not suppose to be taken literally, because we know that a mere Kunai slash isn't any major threat to Ei or RNY, but rather meant to symbolically show Minato being a step ahead of Ei. Just like Itachi cutting off Orochimaru's hand is hardly any real threat to Orochi, but the whole flashback symbolically showed Itachi as always being a step ahead of Orochi.

If we played these fights out I have no doubt Minato and Itachi would win their respective matches, but common senses tells it would take a whole shit ton more than what they used in the flashback, because nether attack really could do anything to them. Minato would probably need to barrage Ei with Rasengan over and over again until Ei finally submits, after going through great pains to mark him through his RNY shroud. Just like when we saw Orochimaru and Itachi actually clash to a final end, handicapped as they both were, Itachi had to use his Ougi to counter Orochimaru's at great expense to himself.

In both cases there is a gap, but they'd face more difficult than someone whose an entire tier stronger would. And really if you put Minato up against most Mid-Kages he'll be experience too much difficult for him to be an entire tier above them. He moves to the next tier once he gets BM raw-power


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

But minato and itachi have clearly been shown to be well superior to A and orochimaru respectively 

A relies on speed- minato can move faster with far less effort
orochimaru relies on being invulenrable to harm and even uses zombies - itachi got a sealing sword which by passes that 

kishi basically made minato and itachi for the sole purpose of trolling  A and orochimaru 

Everything A and orochimaru hold dear is undone by minato and itachi without them trying too hard 

minato could never loose to A nor can A outlast him, despite A bijuu chakra levels. A uses far more chakra and alot more effort to shunshin at high speeds yet minato can lol spam hirashin all day everyday without being tired

A despite his speed was never known for fighting in wars without people knowing what he looked like.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

@Turrin

I see the tiers as:

*High Kage*
Six Paths of Pain
B
Obito
Minato
Itachi
Tobirama

*Mid Kage*
Sannin (?)
Sasori
4th & 3rd Raikage
2nd & 3rd Tsuchikage
Gengetsu
Etc.

That "gap" you were talking about with Minato/A and Itachi/Orochimaru is the tier gap to me. 

It isn't like the guys in the High Kage tier have it easy with they guys in the Mid Kage tier, but generally speaking, High Kages aren't losing to Mid Kages unless there's stupidly skewed conditions or some broken, circumstantial ability involved.

The reason for the question mark next to the Sannin is because I'm unsure where they stand. Jiraiya was more impressive against Pain then I think most in the Mid Kage tier would be, but since Tsunade performed at the same level as everyone else against Madara, so I don't know if they're Mid or High.

Probably in between.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 11, 2015)

Have same Tier system as Rocky. Sannin(and probably Will of Stone Onoki) are the pinnacle of Mid Kage. To get higher than that you'd need dojutsu/friendly biju/Hiraishin/perfected Sage Mode. Sasori is comfortably in Mid Kage Tier. Higher end in the middle of it I guess. High Mid Mid Kage...

...

......

Fuck Tiers


----------



## Matty (Jun 11, 2015)

Agreed with Rocky's tiers. I don't think Sannin are all that godly as some people are trying to make them sound. They are exceptional ninja with great feats and hype, but I would not put Sasori so far out of their league. He is on their level as a fighter and probably a bit below them due to their summons. I'd still put Sasori above Tsunade.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @Turrin
> 
> I see the tiers as:
> 
> ...


To be perfectly frank the more time goes by the less I like Tiers, and the more I'd rather put them in a list, which is strange because before I thought Tiers was better, but Tiers only seem to confuse things because people don't agree on the gaps necessary to warrant a new tier placement. Anyway maybe something like this would be better:


1. Nagato
2. Obito [MS]
3. Pain-Rikudo
4. Killer-B
5. Minato
6. Tobirama
7. Itachi [Edo]
8. Onoki [Post-Stone-Will]
9. Itachi [Edo]
10. Jiraiya
11. Sasori
12. Orochimaru [P1-Tensei]
13. Sandaime Raikage
14. Itachi [Hebi-Sasuke-Fight]
15. Mu
16. Gengetsu
17. Orochimaru [Armless and Body Failure]
18. Ei

Not sure whose better Edo-Itach or Onoki


----------



## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

I agree that tiers ca have their faults, but so can lists because they don't account for match up or conditions _at all._ Even if we use yours, I can spot issues right away.

I see the 3rd Raikage spanking Sasori and probably forcing a draw with Minato, and he's lower on the list. Pain consists of six bodies with linked vision, which is a _fucking nightmare_ for MS Obito's Kamui. Mu could beat PI Orochimaru because his survivability means nothing in the face of Jinton. Minato's already dealt with Obito in the manga.

The solution could be just to eliminate tiers, but I think even Kishimoto himself believes in them to a certain extent. Match-up goes along way, but when characters are just on different levels...he will ass-pull.

An example of that is Konan vs. Obito. She literally studied this mofo and analyzed the perfect counter to his Kamui, which is 90% of his power, and boom- insert Deus ex Machina Izanagi. 

"My intangibility only last for five minutes and your bombs explode continuously for ten? It's cool, I've got this one jutsu that negates everything bad, and it happens to last for five minutes. Sucks to suck."

Konan never had a chance.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I agree that tiers ca have their faults, but so can lists because they don't account for match up or conditions _at all._ Even if we use yours, I can spot issues right away.
> 
> I see the 3rd Raikage spanking Sasori and probably forcing a draw with Minato, and he's lower on the list. Pain consists of six bodies with linked vision, which is a _fucking nightmare_ for MS Obito's Kamui. Mu could beat PI Orochimaru because his survivability means nothing in the face of Jinton. Minato's already dealt with Obito in the manga.
> 
> ...



I don't see the list as X-character can always beat everyone bellow them 10/10 times, I see it as they ether can do that or are just the all around better ninja than the one bellow them, meaning they can win more matches against various enemies and with less difficulty than those bellow them. 

So could Sandaime-Raikage perhaps force a draw with Minato, sure, which is why I feel the idea that Minato is an entire tier above him is really flawed. However for the purpose of this list it doesn't matter, because so long as Minato is the all around better ninja in a variety of situations than Sandaime he deserves to be a bit higher up the list than him.

I'm not sure numbers matter against MS-Obito as much as your making it out to be the guy was taking on KCM-Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, and B, and they were only able to touch him because Kakashi also had Kamui, if anything Obito might deserve to be higher than Nagato, but i'm not sure as Nagato may be able to do something similar with the enemies not having complete knowledge of his abilities.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> *But minato and itachi have clearly been shown to be well superior to A* and orochimaru respectively
> 
> A relies on speed- minato can move faster with far less effort
> orochimaru relies on being invulenrable to harm and even uses zombies - itachi got a sealing sword which by passes that
> ...




I still don't get why people like to pretend that B never existed besides A and helping him against Minato, as if A was fighting against Minato by himself. 

I guess it's hard to accept what u can't comprehend in the manga sometimes. 
(And I don't necessarily mean you, so don't get over sensitive. )


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasori is a legend for the paradigm of power concerning puppet users and Kazekage, in other words accolades strictly on the Sunagakure lands. He may be the most powerful shinobi aside from Gaara to emerge from Sunagakure. However, that's where things end for Sasori.
> 
> He doesn't possess the international fame the legendary Sannin do despite what he's done and there lies one discrepancy. While defeating the strongest Kazekage is enormous hype for Sasori, it places him in the paramount position concerning the Sand Village, which has notably been the weakest village in Kage strength and tailed beast military power.
> 
> ...



All the Sasori and the Kazekage nonsense is overrated as fuck. Since 2009-2010 we were told
that Kankuro became the greatest puppet user


> Kankuro is the Sand's greatest puppeteer.


 He doesn't feel it inmediately.
and years later, kishi proved what was said in the Fan-Book by restating it again and making Kankuro defeat Sasori. Sure, people may argue that Sasori did not have his tools, but that is clearly not the point Kishi was trying to tell when he repeated that for 3 times.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I still don't get why people like to pretend that B never existed besides A and helping him against Minato, as if A was fighting against Minato by himself.
> 
> I guess it's hard to accept what u can't comprehend in the manga sometimes.
> (And I don't necessarily mean you, so don't get over sensitive. )





why quote me, I don't even get it 

try not to please


----------



## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't see the list as X-character can always beat everyone bellow them 10/10 times, I see it as they ether can do that or are just the all around better ninja than the one bellow them, meaning they can win more matches against various enemies and with less difficulty than those bellow them.



Okay, so why is Killer B an all-around worse ninja than Pain? Why is the 3rd Raikage generally inferior to Sasori? How do you calculate this? This is why I don't like lists.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> With all due respect I cannot buy into this Rasa hype.
> 
> If he produced a son like Gaara then he can't be anything above low Kage.



Just a thought, but why do you hate Gaara this much? 



> [=Turrin;53771484]
> Having some way to deal with tanks and having a good way are two different things. Most tanks Minato can take down by barraging them with Rasengan, Senpo-Rasengan, and FCD over and over again. For all the others he can take almost all of them out with Shiki Fuujin. However nether way as all that "great". Having to barrage someone over and over again with attacks, requires Minato to have to mark them and than gives them time to pull out their own techniques in response when the barrage begins to happen, and it simply won't work against the upper echelon of durability enemies or those with good shields. Shiki Fuujin of course costs Minato his life, causing any fight he's in to end in a draw.



that's a lack of knowledge rather than saying he does not have.  




> As far as Minato vs Ei goes. I think people fall into the same traps as Itachi vs Orochimaru there. As the fight between Minato and Ei is not suppose to be taken literally, because we know that a mere Kunai slash isn't any major threat to Ei or RNY, but rather meant to symbolically show Minato being a step ahead of Ei. Just like Itachi cutting off Orochimaru's hand is hardly any real threat to Orochi, but the whole flashback symbolically showed Itachi as always being a step ahead of Orochi.


How do you know what is to be taken seriously or not in a serious fight? Naruto's clone when using KCM was able to hit from 3 swords at the same time. When he was 4tails V2 against Oro, the latter's sword couldn't scratch him. How does that change the fact that in the Gaiden, when he was using even stronger mode the sword basically cut through him?

So, can you tell us what is your bases on that? Because those flashback clearly shows
itachi > Oro, which Oro even admitted and did not say "that fight was not to be taken seriously"
and Minato > A & B. Which they as well admitted and never denied their inferiority to him. 

Also, how do you know that A was talking about his potential, and not how he was? 


> If we played these fights out I have no doubt Minato and Itachi would win their respective matches, but common senses tells it would take a whole shit ton more than what they used in the flashback, because nether attack really could do anything to them. Minato would probably need to barrage Ei with Rasengan over and over again until Ei finally submits, after going through great pains to mark him through his RNY shroud. Just like when we saw Orochimaru and Itachi actually clash to a final end, handicapped as they both were, Itachi had to use his Ougi to counter Orochimaru's at great expense to himself.


What does common  sense have to do with actual battles that happened? Common sense would tell us that Narudo and Sasuke would shit on Shin and his clones, and yet he was the on shitting on them with Kunais, no?  

Especially that you are basing your judgment manly on their feat, when the only chance Minato got to fight a long fight he was missing his arm. 

mmm, I will assume you mean the Susanoo by "Ougi" if so, then no, itachi used to save himself from Sasuke's Kirin.  



> In both cases there is a gap, but they'd face more difficult than someone whose an entire tier stronger would. And really if you put Minato up against most Mid-Kages he'll be experience too much difficult for him to be an entire tier above them. He moves to the next tier once he gets BM raw-power



That what they said about a battle between him and A during the Kage-Arc, and yet he was schooling both A & B at the same time without the difficult you are talking about. 




Umbrella said:


> Anyway concerning the topic - if you examine Sasori's hype and character you'll find he's basically Sand Orochimaru; which was very obviously intentional on Kishi's part.
> 
> Both killed the third Kage of their respective village, who were both said to be the strongest. Both were stated be capable of soloing a country. Both became obsessed with immortality after the death of their parents, and both gave up their humanity in order to attain it. Both take the power of others as their own, with human puppets and body snatching respectively.  Both are associated with a venomous animal. And to top it all off they were even partners in Akatsuki.
> 
> From that, I could definitely buy Kishimoto intending for us to see him in a similar light as the Sannin. Now being from a foreign village and having far less of a presence in the plot - he'd still lose out to them, but it's enough at least to put him a cut above the other Akatsuki regulars imo.



Defeating 2 different Kages is NOT the same thing. Hiruzen was known to be the strongest of the 5 Kages, so defeating him is greater than defeating a Kazekage.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Rasa is fodder. He was offpaneled and his corpse was left to rot in a fucking ditch in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> Sasori probably ambushed 3rd Kazekage with a poisoned sandwitch and some other shit. Its offpanel, so no one cares anyways. Kakuzu fought Hashirama. Hanzo off paneled Sannin, etc.
> 
> On panel showings always trump off panel hype.



Being Off-paneled does not make you a fodder. The 3rd Raikage, Tobirama, Hashirama, Mu, and the Mizukage were all off-paneled as well. 

Rasa is a good match up for the 2nd Mizukage tho because of the Gold.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

One more thing, Turrin.  


Here Takl Said


> at first he is on about the speed, then about how great of a shinobi the 4th was.



Now, I know my English suck, but if he was talking about potential, wouldn't he say
"then about how great of a shinobi the 4th could have been" or something? 

^

Just putting this here now because I lose interest real fast, and if I did not put it now, I might don't care enough
tomorrow. 

Edit2:
about the whole "potential rather than how he actually was" 



and then you and takL went on about the whole thing. 





the whole page


----------



## Turrin (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Okay, so why is Killer B an all-around worse ninja than Pain? Why is the 3rd Raikage generally inferior to Sasori? How do you calculate this? This is why I don't like lists.


Like I said I believe Sasori can defeat more people than Sandaime and also offers more as ninja in a Team-Setting or War Setting. Same thing with Pain-Rikudo and B. 

Edit: Though I don't really like place Pain-Rikudo at all because it's not really a Shinobi, but Nagato's Jutsu. I only did so because Pain-Rikudo was on your list.

@Hussain

Your post can be summed up as such. The mechanics of Shin's Jutsu and how fast the weapons move w/ what force behind them are unknown, so until then I only see your post as a desperate attempt to argue against common sense. 

As for the translation stuff. I was talking to Rocky about Ei believing Minato would never be surpassed and become the savior. Two things that very clearly in all translations pertain to the future tense. Your quote from Takl is just saying Ei considered Minato a great ninja, something no one doubted, but that is a far cry from an unsurpassable savior, who in essence would need to be stronger than Kaguya [and whoever is beyond Kaguya] to fulfill that role.

The rest, I.E. my discussion with Takl has nothing to do with anything.

Summary, stop dick riding Minato and you'll be a much more credible poster.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> To be perfectly frank the more time goes by the less I like Tiers, and the more I'd rather put them in a list, which is strange because before I thought Tiers was better, but Tiers only seem to confuse things because people don't agree on the gaps necessary to warrant a new tier placement. Anyway maybe something like this would be better:
> 
> 
> 1. Nagato
> ...



Oh god.


 I'll start a petiton on change.org to preven Turrin from making lists.
Who is with me ?


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

> Your post can be summed up as such. The mechanics of Shin's Jutsu and how fast the weapons move w/ what force behind them are unknown, so until then I only see your post as a desperate attempt to argue against common sense.



Lol, no. Actually this is a desperate attempt to pretend that you're using common sense honestly.  
Why? Because if we assume that the sword was so fast and has such an incredible force to cut through Narudo who was using his RSM, then why on earth did not that happen to to Sasuke and those Kunai-like things cut though him? 

and if it were the other way around, then how did they cut though Narudo? 

Rather, you're trying to use that and ignore the whole manga. 

Does not common sense tell you that 8th Gate Gai punch has more power and force in it than Obito's hand as well? 
Or how would you explain Obito's hand going through Madara but not Gai's punch? 

Please tell us about the common sense that Mei's mist can milt down the Susanoo but not Sasuke's face or hand. does common sense tell you that Sasuke's body is stronger than the susanoo, or does it tell you that Sasuke's hand should have milted faster than the Susanoo?



Or maybe the one that explains how Hiruzen and Tobirama survived the Gedu-Dama, but not Minato's arms?

Or that the common sense that Izanagi seals the eyesight forever, but Madara got his eyes back after one of them lose its eye?

Perhaps the common sense behind an Eye-jutsu to be used without eyes (Susanoo), when Sasuke's Sasunoo vanished after his eyes got weaker.

Doesn't your so called common sense tell you that a stronger Kaguya who trashed Sasuke's PS, without damage can take on Sakura's punch as a child play? 
Or do you think Sakura's punch is stronger than Sasuke's PS?  

At least she should have seen her with her Byakugan.  

Should I go on?  
Or are those examples enough for you to know that it does not matter what you see as a common sense, and what not, but rather what
Kishi sees fit for the story or the hype/portrayal he tries to set up?  


> As for the translation stuff. I was talking to Rocky about Ei believing Minato would never be surpassed and become the savior. Two things that very clearly in all translations pertain to the future tense. Your quote from Takl is just saying Ei considered Minato a great ninja, something no one doubted, but that is a fair cry from an unsurpassable savior, who in essence would need to be stronger than Kaguya [and whoever is beyond Kaguya] to fulfill that role.



No one believed that Hago existed until obito talked to them, let alone knowing about Kaguya. 
As for the "future tense" about which part are you talking about? Because I don't know what you mean honestly. 



> I'll start a petiton on change.org to preven Turrin from making lists.
> Who is with me ?



I did not even get the numbering system he used honestly.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Being Off-paneled does not make you a fodder. The 3rd Raikage, Tobirama, Hashirama, Mu, and the Mizukage were all off-paneled as well.
> 
> Rasa is a good match up for the 2nd Mizukage tho because of the Gold.



None of them got off paneled ? 

RS and his sons were off-paneled in that sense. 


I'm talking about being present in the manga but being too fucking insignificant to be given a proper fight, instead just getting dealt with off panel.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> None of them got off paneled ?
> 
> RS and his sons were off-paneled in that sense.
> 
> ...



We were shown a flash-back when Tobirama was going to die, but we were not given the chance to see the actual fight, no? 

but in that sence, I guess you're more or less right about the others.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> We were shown a flash-back when Tobirama was going to die, but we were not given the chance to see the actual fight, no?
> 
> but in that since, I guess you're more or less right about the others.



Tobirama was never present in the manga. 
He was in Danzo's flashback.
All those characters were already dead when the manga started.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oh god.
> 
> 
> I'll start a petiton on change.org to preven Turrin from making lists.
> Who is with me ?



Coincidentally I'm starting a charity. For every dollar you donate I will send 1 tube of preparation h in the hopes of finally curing Grimjow's buthurt.



Hussain said:


> Lol, no. Actually this is a desperate attempt to pretend that you're using common sense honestly.
> Why? Because if we assume that the sword was so fast and has such an incredible force to cut through Narudo who was using his RSM, then why on earth did not that happen to to Sasuke and those Kunai-like things cut though him?
> 
> and if it were the other way around, then how did they cut though Narudo?
> ...


Let me get this straight Hussain. Your argument is that because the knives didn't go through Sasuke, that weapon damage can be inconsistent and therefore based on this inconsistency Minato could have possibly through an inconsistency damage Ei with his Kunai. What kind of weakass argument is that, not only is it arguing for an inconsistency which is pointless in a discussion of strength, but it relies on the idea that Shin can't manipulate how much force is behind each weapon and didn't want the weapons to stick in Sasuke to stop his movements. 

It's absolutely fucking ridiculous and you know it 



> No one believed that Hago existed until obito talked to them, let alone knowing about Kaguya.
> As for the "future tense" about which part are you talking about? Because I don't know what you mean honestly.


"would never be surpassed". That is future tense. 

And if you want to go off of knowledge. Than Ei's statement isn't worth shit. Because who the heck did he know about, that I haven't already put Minato above.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 12, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Coincidentally I'm starting a charity. For every dollar you donate I will send 1 tube of preparation h in the hopes of finally curing Grimjow's buthurt.



Alternatively you can stop making lists so I won't be butthurt


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## edwinakiel (Jun 12, 2015)

*Is Sasori Sannin level?*

No, he is fucking dead


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Alternatively you can stop making lists so I won't be butthurt


No can do, I need a charity case for tax write off purposes.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> I'm talking about the Sannin themselves and their individual reputation.



I know what you're meaning, and like I said, they are themselves so intimidating as the result of their _reputations *as* members of the Sannin_. They are feared because they are known to be _one of those three individuals_, not because of some other renown that eclipses even being counted alongside the other two. Otherwise Kakashi would have instead said "even if you are _Orochimaru_", Ebisu would have said "against Orochimaru _Jiraiya_ is needed", the databook "_is the only one_ who can fight against the Sannin _Jiraiya himself_", and Kabuto "so this is the power _of Tsunade_", because when you say "the Sannin" you literally say "the three ninjas". The fact that they are constantly referred to as being _of the three ninjas_ when speaking to issues of strength as opposed to some other more specific renown suggests that the three are perceived as being of an identical threat level.

Their individual reputations are for all intents and purposes equal, hence we have the string of interchangeability and the deadlocking motif. Tsunade's is never treated as lesser than Jiraiya's or Orochimaru's anywhere in the manga or guidebooks by anyone on the basis of being the medical expert. She should be to them what Katsuyu is said to be to Gamabunta and Manda- capable of fighting on equal footing with them, yet also a healer. Kabuto is a highly gifted healer and is also stated to be equal to Kakashi twice, yet given the context of those claims (their being equal being the reason he couldn't kill Orochimaru, as well as the reason Naruto shouldn't fight him) they indicate that Kabuto has the same fighting power as Kakashi, so we've got ourselves a pattern.

There is no basis present in the manga for this notion that Tsunade is only equal to Jiraiya and Orochimaru by virtue of skills that have no application in one-on-one combat, and it is simply not true that Tsunade must be weaker because she's had her healing abilities emphasized. There is a reason Tsunade's battling abilities are repeatedly highlighted alongside her first-aid abilities, and that is because the emphasis was never moved from fighting to healing- it was simply placed on both. Time and again, we see that these part-fighter/part-healer characters do not exist, we only see characters that are _fully both_, which is why Tsunade is consistently praised _in regards to both_. _She is both._ Tsunade earned that reputation for the same thing Jiraiya and Orochimaru did (that is, strength, as displayed on the battlefield, not fixing antidotes which happens off of the battlefield) and is simply a great doctor in addition to that.



> This is why Kabuto can praise an unquestionably weaker, rusty Tsunade with the title of Sannin. Or why Shikamaru and Asuma could stand in awe at the power of Akatsuki (Hidan) without directly comparing him to other Akatsuki members. Or why statements like only the Sharingan can fight the Sharingan can be made without being a judgement on the power of Sasuke, Itachi, or Kakashi.



*1.)* Kabuto wasn't praising the power Tsunade displayed at that specific point in time with the title of Sannin, he was praising the fact that the power of the Sannin was apparently great enough that one could afford to be so weakened as she was and yet still have that much power left over.

Why call it "the power of the _three ninjas_"- "_three_" of course being "Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru"- if he didn't mean "Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru" but "Tsunade"? Probably because he didn't mean "Tsunade". If he had, he'd have left that whole "power of the _three_" part out.

*2.)* I'm not sure specifically which scene you're referring to about Hidan, but if you're talking about when Hidan first got stabbed in his vitals and it did practically nothing, Asuma didn't say anything about the "power of Akatsuki" and Shikamaru didn't think "so this is the power of Akatsuki". He asked "this is an Akatsuki?" because up to that point Shikamaru didn't even know anything about the group (not it's hype, what abilities would be reminiscent of it/living up to it, anything) besides the fact that they had apparently attacked and killed a bunch of monks, and he didn't even so much as know Hidan's name yet, only that he was a member of Akatsuki (so what else would they refer to him with?).

*3.)* The Sharingan vs Sharingan thing was specifically about resisting Genjutsu (hence it being in Tsukuyomi's databook entry that this is reiterated) and it _did_ involve judgments on the capabilities of individual users (in both manga and databook). Itachi said that while Kakashi _was right_ that another Sharingan would provide some measure of resistance against his own, when up against _his special technique_ Kakashi's couldn't cut it, after which he brings up specifications that would only apply to Sasuke (as Kakashi realized right before being hit with Tsukuyomi).



> He indicates the losses Tsunade experienced during the war are what motivated her to revolutionize the medical shinobi system, not become a medical ninja.



Go check that conversation again _(1)_.

Orochimaru- _*"People only realize the true value of something after they have lost it. // And what brought about one of the Prodigal Shinobi Three...//...becoming a medical specialist...//...was simply the desire to avoid more loss of life..."*_

More than _what_?

Orochimaru- _*"...The sacrifice...//...of so many lives."*_

Which was the?

Orochimaru- _*"pure and simple war experience that laid the groundwork for that idea..."*_

Also, when the Sannin went to see Nawaki after he died Orochi said there were no medics on the battlefield, and this after the war began, so there's that, too.



> That interpretation doesn't even make sense since one of Tsunade's losses was Dan, who she failed to save with her already-legendary medical techniques.



That just shows the experience he was referring to wasn't _Dan's_ death specifically.

The Dan incident doesn't show that Orochimaru was referring to revolutionizing the medical system as opposed to becoming a medical ninja, because she had _already_ begun her efforts in revolutionizing the medical field _before_ Dan died (_that was how they met_) just like she had already become a medic, and _his_ passing away is what made her retire from her ninja career altogether.



> Innovative use of medical jutsu is what largely defines Tsunade's arsenal. Whatever prodigal talent Tsunade has otherwise isn't (for the most part) expressed in her abilities.



What?

Maximal 5 out of 5 in Taijutsu knowledge/proficiency? Giant, acid-spraying slugs that can remain just fine after being ripped to pieces and are stated to be on equal footing with the signature summons of Jiraiya and Orochimaru? The fact that her moniker is "_*Slug*_ Princess" of all things suggests pretty prolific use of those in particular. 

Those abilities are expressed just as often as her healing abilities are, and certainly _far_ more often than her antidote concocting skills (that just seems natural since she aimed to get medics _out onto the battlefield_).

So, again, you could say _"The issue is that the equality of the Sannin takes into account abilities that don't have immediate application in a one-on-one battle. Orochimaru's skill with stealing people's facial features to disguise himself with or Jiraiya's ability to seal the effects of fire techniques into a specific location on a scroll don't translate directly into fighting someone like Tsunade."_

It just doesn't have anything to do with how strong they are so it's irrelevant. The possession of those abilities is no grounds to label certain ones weaker than the others.



> A statement made to Jiraiya, whose neck Orochimaru had just bitten. Orochimaru was saying that he had won/been stronger than Jiraiya before, and his current condition didn't alter that. This is irrelevant to a deadlock, and (more importantly) irrelevant to Tsunade.



I know who the statement was made to, and it still sets a precedent for the deadlock (like the animals they're tied to do). Handicaps didn't alter their relationship, and resultantly snake remained > toad even in that circumstance. Handicapped slug (Tsunade) came along and _knocked handicapped snake out_ a few minutes later, even though handicapped toad thought he may wind up killing her were she to have taken Orochimaru's proposal.

Speaking of, the third databook calls the Sannin a Sansukumi again in Jiraiya's profile _(2)_.



> Nor will just take your word for it, as I already outright disagree with your recollection of several manga events.



You disagree with my _interpretation_ of them, not my _recollection_ of them.

In this case _I just quoted the entry_. So do you think I don't know how to repeat a sentence or something?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 12, 2015)

edwinakiel said:


> *Is Sasori Sannin level?*
> 
> No, he is fucking dead



 Same as Jiraiya.


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2015)

FlamingRain, have you by any chance written any books on the Search for Tsunade Arc, or even the Sannin in general?

I'd like to read them.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I know what you're meaning, and like I said, they are themselves so intimidating as the result of their _reputations *as* members of the Sannin_. They are feared because they are known to be _one of those three individuals_, not because of some other renown that eclipses even being counted alongside the other two. Otherwise Kakashi would have instead said "even if you are _Orochimaru_", Ebisu would have said "against Orochimaru _Jiraiya_ is needed", the databook "_is the only one_ who can fight against the Sannin _Jiraiya himself_", and Kabuto "so this is the power _of Tsunade_", because when you say "the Sannin" you literally say "the three ninjas". The fact that they are constantly referred to as being _of the three ninjas_ when speaking to issues of strength as opposed to some other more specific renown suggests that the three are perceived as being of an identical threat level.


This is about as silly as saying that all Tsuchikages, Mizukages, Raikages, or even "Kages" in general are all of the same "level". The title of sannin is referred to because it is a easy way to convey how powerful they are, but it does not mean they are of equal threat, anymore than someone saying as expected of a "Kage", means that all Kages are equal. The manga has directly demonstrated that the Sannin at no point in the entire manga were equals, yet people are still barking up this all Sannin are equals BS tree...sigh...


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## thechickensage (Jun 13, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I don't see it as the shit tier man. This is how I rank the Akatsuki:
> 
> *Tier I*
> Obito
> ...



I agree with this, although I would put Zetsu below Hidan.  

As for Kakuzu, I think he didnt get the best treatment.  There was a lot of hype, but he got Plotted by OMFG the worst Naruto kill of all time.  NO teamwork, just 3 or 4 clones being thrown at him.  

booooooooooooooooooooooooo

I would also put Kisame below Sasori.


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## Devil Child (Jun 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> This is about as silly as saying that all Tsuchikages, Mizukages, Raikages, or even "Kages" in general are all of the same "level". The title of sannin is referred to because it is a easy way to convey how powerful they are, but it does not mean they are of equal threat, anymore than someone saying as expected of a "Kage", means that all Kages are equal. The manga has directly demonstrated that the Sannin at no point in the entire manga were equals, yet people are still barking up this all Sannin are equals BS tree...sigh...



Care to tell us specific moments in the manga where someone was referring to "Kage-level"? Otherwise, your argument doesnt hold up.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> This is about as silly as saying that all Tsuchikages, Mizukages, Raikages, or even "Kages" in general are all of the same "level". The title of sannin is referred to because it is a easy way to convey how powerful they are, but it does not mean they are of equal threat, anymore than someone saying as expected of a "Kage", means that all Kages are equal. The manga has directly demonstrated that the Sannin at no point in the entire manga were equals, yet people are still barking up this all Sannin are equals BS tree...sigh...



Thats actually not a good example.

Jman Oro and Tsuande built their "legendary" reputation as a three man cell. And when you consider their overall standing, they aren't that far off from each other. 
I'd say "Sannin level" isn't as vague as "kage level."

I think the author wanted us to think that they were more or less equal, from a narrative standpoint.
When Oro first appeared, Ebisu said "you need a sannin to defeat another sannin" implying their status as the legendary 3 also defined a certain standart for power, it wasn't just a name.


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## Turrin (Jun 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats actually not a good example.
> 
> Jman Oro and Tsuande built their "legendary" reputation as a three man cell. And when you consider their overall standing, they aren't that far off from each other.
> I'd say "Sannin level" isn't as vague as "kage level."
> ...


Ebisu would have said the same thing about a Kage

And if you can point me to one instance in the entire manga where the three sannin were equals i'll concede, that's just how ridiculous unrealistic this nonsense is.


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## beyondsouske (Jun 13, 2015)

Sasori is nowhere near sanin level, he would have a hard time with their summons.


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## Matty (Jun 13, 2015)

I honestly don't think he would have such a hard time. Iron Sand is pretty good for summons I would imagine. He was shown to be able to produce a lot of it and make big objects in different shapes. It moves fast enough to break the sound barrier so I can imagine that it can destroy the summons aside from Katsuyu. 

Grim I get what you are saying and I agree on the part about how the Sannin are more or less the same level.And also that they are more of a defined group than "Kage level" But for me personally I see his intelligence, Endurance, and unpredictability to be on the level of the sannin. In the case of Endurance he probably is the best in the Manga due to pain tolerance and unlimited stamina. I'm not saying he's beating Jiraiya every time, or Oro or even Tsunade, but I think it is pretty ignorant to say he is nowhere near their level.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

beyondsouske said:


> Sasori is nowhere near sanin level, he would have a hard time with their summons.



  Yet the Akatsuki recruited him due to his expertise of dealing with Bijuu. I doubt Summons would be a major problem, especially when his Satetsu is coated with Poison.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Ebisu would have said the same thing about a Kage


Of course, if we'r talking about "kage level" it doesn't make sense for a jounin or chuunin to be able to defeat one.

But Sannin is a group of 3 people. So, it is not the same as labeling someone as "kage level."
It has defined limits. If someone is "sannin level" then you have a pretty clear picture in  your head.



> And if you can point me to one instance in the entire manga where the three sannin were equals i'll concede, that's just how ridiculous unrealistic this nonsense is.



Oro & Jiriaya had the Sasuke & Naruto parallel, so they were portrayed to be more or less equal. Tsunade is weaker then both of them in my book, but from a narrative standpoint, I think it was at least implied that she should be on Jiraiya & Oro's level. And considering her medical prowess and how valuable of an asset she is... She should be, eventhough her role is completely different in a team.


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I honestly don't think he would have such a hard time. Iron Sand is pretty good for summons I would imagine. He was shown to be able to produce a lot of it and make big objects in different shapes. It moves fast enough to break the sound barrier so I can imagine that it can destroy the summons aside from Katsuyu.
> 
> Grim I get what you are saying and I agree on the part about how the Sannin are more or less the same level.And also that they are more of a defined group than "Kage level" But for me personally I see his intelligence, Endurance, and unpredictability to be on the level of the sannin. In the case of Endurance he probably is the best in the Manga due to pain tolerance and unlimited stamina. I'm not saying he's beating Jiraiya every time, or Oro or even Tsunade, but I think it is pretty ignorant to say he is nowhere near their level.



well lets compare 

puppet body 

100 puppet jutsu 

3rd kazekage puppet 

hiruko 

to 

Edo tensei

yamata no jutsu 

boss summon (manda)

kusanagi

sanju rashomon 

or 

sage mode (with all the enhancement it provides)- unlimited SM, odama rasenga, frog katas, frog call and song. shima ability to summon an army of frogs *she summnoned Naruto and everyone against pain*

boss summon (bunta) or FCD- combo techs with summons

Yomi numa

toad gourd prison or toad stomach

or 

okasho (ninjutsu which enhances her super strength)

byakuyo 

body disturbing jutsu

chakra scalpels 

boss summon (katsuyu) basically as DB said cant really be damaged or hurt and it can spit acid 

Well make a comparison and tell me why sasori techniques should be put on the same level 

What situation have the sannin been  in that sasori wont die quicker than they did

tsunade situation against 5 madara clones. sasori gets neg diff'd he doesn't last as long as she did 

sasori against 3 paths of pains. sasori wont defeat the 3. 

sasori against KN4- dies quickly. BD wrecks his shit casually


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## Turrin (Jun 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Of course, if we'r talking about "kage level" it doesn't make sense for a jounin or chuunin to be able to defeat one.
> 
> But Sannin is a group of 3 people. So, it is not the same as labeling someone as "kage level."
> It has defined limits. If someone is "sannin level" then you have a pretty clear picture in  your head.


I see literally no difference other than amount of people lol



> Oro & Jiriaya had the Sasuke & Naruto parallel, so they were portrayed to be more or less equal. Tsunade is weaker then both of them in my book, but from a narrative standpoint, I think it was at least implied that she should be on Jiraiya & Oro's level. And considering her medical prowess and how valuable of an asset she is... She should be, eventhough her role is completely different in a team.


Cool now when were they equals. Orochimaru was handicapped throughout most of the manga-cannon and than became much stronger than Jiraiya w/ Edo-Hokage.


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## thechickensage (Jun 13, 2015)

It's different with puppet masters in general because they only have to get a single cut to kill you.  That's why a city or a nation could fall to chiyo or sasori.  Their fighting style is very different from the Sannin, who are all about physical power and ninjutsu and summons.  I think puppet masters are some of the deadliest fighters in naruto

It really took another puppet master with specific knowledge to bring him down.  Sakura was great but Chiyo was necessary too.  

Do you think that puppet masters could be Kage level?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2015)

No Ebisu wouldn't have said the same thing about a Kage, _because they had a Kage present in the village and Orochimaru himself is not a Kage_, meaning they wouldn't have instead needed another Sannin if against one of the Kage another Kage is needed. Hiruzen (the Kage) himself wouldn't have sent people to look for Jiraiya if he didn't think the same thing. 


_Grimmjowsensei_ has got it when he points out that the difference is in the definition. "Kage" is not by definition three specific people, used interchangeably or typically abiding by a Sansukumi motif. "Sannin" is. The Kage have also not ever been said to all be equal (The Kage in power at the beginning of the series, Hiruzen, had a reputation as the strongest of the five during his time, not being even with them) while Kishimoto has explicitly stated in one of his fanbooks that Tsunade is every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru, which would itself necessitate that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are every bit a match for each other.

When one says "so this is the power of _the Sannin_" they say the power of _the three ninjas_- not of one, not even of two, but of all _three_ of them, _specifically_. Referencing one's status as _one of the three_ is rendered meaningless if they don't match the other two. There's no point in it if one is particularly strong or weak compared to the others. 

When one says "you are worthy of the _title of Kage_" that isn't to say you're as powerful as specific individuals simply because being worthy of the title of Kage only means being qualified to act as the protective head of a major village (which is a lot of hype in itself, but it still refers only to a specific position of authority, not specific _people_).


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## Puppetry (Jun 14, 2015)

I had a really long post and then I lost it.  However:



FlamingRain said:


> When one says "so this is the power of _the Sannin_" they say the power of _the three ninjas_- not of one, not even of two, but of all _three_ of them, _specifically_. Referencing one's status as _one of the three_ is rendered meaningless if they don't match the other two. There's no point in it if one is particularly strong or weak compared to the others.



You could be right about everything else (I don't think you are, but that's beside the point) and this still sounds illogical. The belief that using the same title for multiple people implies equality (or else said title is meaningless) is wrong on a fundamental level.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2015)

I'm probably done with the long responses anyway.



Puppetry said:


> The belief that using the same title for multiple people implies equality (or else said title is meaningless) is wrong on a fundamental level.



When the title is something like "Kage" which means "leader of the village", then yeah.

Not when you're talking about a title like "Sannin" though, which means nothing besides "_Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru_". Being one of those three relies on the remaining two in order to even say anything about the one in question. Otherwise so what? It's pointless.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> No Ebisu wouldn't have said the same thing about a Kage, _because they had a Kage present in the village and Orochimaru himself is not a Kage_, meaning they wouldn't have instead needed another Sannin if against one of the Kage another Kage is needed. Hiruzen (the Kage) himself wouldn't have sent people to look for Jiraiya if he didn't think the same thing.


The Sannin title holds more esteem than the generic Kage title that's why, but it doesn't make them all equals. I also fail to see why anyone is taking Ebisu seriously when he was flat out FACTUALLY wrong about only a Sannin being able to defeat a Sannin. Or trying to assert that Ebisu's statement implies equality when we know for a FACT, that the Sannin were indeed not equal at the time, as Tsunade was rusty and hemophobic. It's absolutely silly in my opinion that an outright factually wrong statement is being used to further a factually wrong premise.



> Grimmjowsensei has got it when he points out that the difference is in the definition. "Kage" is not by definition three specific people, used interchangeably or typically abiding by a Sansukumi motif. "Sannin" is. T


So again the only difference is the amount of people. The Kage Title refers to X amount of people and the Sannin title refers to Y amount. Nothing is different but the values of X and Y.

The amount of people holding said title does not change the fact that nether the Kage title nor the Sannin title assert the necessity of equality among their holders.



> The Kage have also not ever been said to all be equal (The Kage in power at the beginning of the series, Hiruzen, had a reputation as the strongest of the five during his time, not being even with them)


Nether have the Sannin, and in-fact they have been factually shown to be not equals at every single juncture of the story.



> while Kishimoto has explicitly stated in one of his fanbooks that Tsunade is every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru, which would itself necessitate that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are every bit a match for each other.


Link me to it. I guarantee that the context is being misrepresented or it's from some age old fanbook that is speaking in hyperbolic fashion, if it even exists.



> When one says "so this is the power of the Sannin" they say the power of the three ninjas- not of one, not even of two, but of all three of them, specifically. Referencing one's status as one of the three is rendered meaningless if they don't match the other two. There's no point in it if one is particularly strong or weak compared to the others.


Same thing when they say this is the power of a "Kage" or "Hokage", and it does not mean they are equals.



> When one says "you are worthy of the title of Kage" that isn't to say you're as powerful as specific individuals simply because being worthy of the title of Kage only means being qualified to act as the protective head of a major village (which is a lot of hype in itself, but it still refers only to a specific position of authority, not specific people).


And all the title of Sannin means is that you were on that Legendary Team. It does not mean you are equals ether.

Fuck I'll give you the same chances as Grimjow, show me one instance in the actual manga cannon, where all the Sannin were equals, just 1 and I'll concede. Literally the Sannin being all equals is so far from reality that it's so well documented that they were not equals throughout the manga cannnon that not a single point in time can be single out where it's even debatable whether they are equals.



FlamingRain said:


> When the title is something like "Kage" which means "leader of the village", then yeah.
> 
> Not when you're talking about a title like "Sannin" though, which means nothing besides "_Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru_". Being one of those three relies on the remaining two in order to even say anything about the one in question. Otherwise so what? It's pointless.


Sorry, but this makes zero sense. Let's even forget about the Hokage/Kage Title. The 7 Mist Swordsman is literally the same exact type of title as the Sannin, and you have to be smoking crack to believe Hamer/Axe-Sword man comes anywhere close to Kisame's "level"


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Hey guys, there's probably a reason that Pain started going off about how each of the Sannin had their own tricks when Hermit Jiraiya popped out of the wall.

If Jiraiya was decisively stronger than his legendary peers, then why even bring them up? The Pain fight would have been a great opportunity for Kishimoto to establish Jiraiya as the strongest of the Sannin.

The opposite actually happened. Pain had trouble because Jiraiya lived up to his reputation as _one of Tsunade & Orochimaru's peers. _


----------



## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2015)

Like I said I've lost interest in lengthy responses to this thread.

But:



Turrin said:


> Tsunade was rusty and *homophobic*.







> Link me to it.



I'd have to order it. This thread isn't worth me doing that. Like I told Puppetry, _you_ can order it if you want to, but I'm not about to just to fight with my scanner to post it here.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I'd have to order it. This thread isn't worth me doing that. Like I told Puppetry, you can order it if you want to, but I'm not about to just to fight with my scanner to post it here.


Okay than what Fanbook is it, and I'll probably be able to find it or already have it. It can't be that hard to read the title and post it here, can it? Or Link to a picture of it's cover. I mean I'm asking thee bare minimum of supporting evidence.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2015)

Naruto: The Official Fanbook/Naruto Secret: Scroll of Soldiers Official Fanbook.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Hey guys, there's probably a reason that Pain started going off about how each of the Sannin had their own tricks when Hermit Jiraiya popped out of the wall.
> 
> If Jiraiya was decisively stronger than his legendary peers, then why even bring them up? The Pain fight would have been a great opportunity for Kishimoto to establish Jiraiya as the strongest of the Sannin.
> 
> The opposite actually happened. Pain had trouble because Jiraiya lived up to his reputation as _one of Tsunade & Orochimaru's peers. _



Three Characters all having a triumph card makes them equal now 

Plus let's assume for a second Pain is aware of Tsunade and Orochimaru's triumph-cards, and was talking in terms of equality, assuming Jiraiya's SM was equal to those other 2. Well he also assumed based on that knowledge that 3 Bodies would be enough to defeat such a triumph card and was proven wrong when SM-Jiraiya beat those 3 bodies. So even using that logic it would put Jiraiya above the other two. 

As far as living up to the Sannin reputation goes. That rep is in the eye of the beholder. In ebisu's mind that rep is only another Sannin can beat a Sannin, so clearly Jiraiya did not live up to his Rep in accordance to Ebisu. Likewise according to Itachi and Kisame the Sannin rep is above that of Itachi whose rep is that he solo'd his entire clan, which was actually not true and indeed Itachi was not strong enough to accomplish that, which unless Jiraiya is way stronger than Itachi, he didn't live up to ether. So perception of rep is all over the place and therefore Jiraiya living up to whatever perception of the Sannin rep Pain has, doesn't mean that Tsunade and Orochimaru would be capable of doing the same, just because they are sannin. In-fact saying Jiraiya lived up to his rep would be pointless if it was a forgone conclusion that because he is a sannin he automatically live up to his rep.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Naruto: The Official Fanbook/Naruto Secret: Scroll of Soldiers Official Fanbook.



literally have that fanbook, tell me the pg number.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2015)

I don't remember the exact page number. I _think_ it's like in the mid-50s? Jiraiya and Orochimaru have entries right before it.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

^

Found the page and your right it does say that Tsunade is a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru. I can confirm that [though I haven't look at the Raw just the english trans] But let's take a step back and consider the context of the Fanbook. The Fanbook was released before Tsunade was even shown in the manga, hence her appearance in the Fanbook is a Big "Question Mark". The fanbook also takes place after Orochimaru had his souls ripped. So in-order to believe the Fan-book it would mean:

Jiraiya [Perfectly Healthy] = Tsunade Rusty + Blood Phobia = Orochimaru Armless and Shiki Fuujin Side effects.

I don't know about you, but I see something very wrong with that. And am much more inclined to believe that Kishimoto while working on certain parts of the Fanbook didn't have full idea of where he was going with certain parts of the story, like how weakened Orochimaru was going to be or Tsunade being rusty and having blood phobia. Ether that or he was just being hyperbolic.

And to be perfectly honest with you Flaming-Rain I do think Kishi originally intended the Sannin to be all equals, but for various story purposes quickly found that he could not or just didn't care to, stay true to that premise. 

Though ether way, whether hyperbola or not having the story fully fleshed out, we have direct factual information that contradicts them being all equals at that point and time. So yeah.... a statement from that fanbook isn't proving anything as far as the Sannin are concerned.


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

When someone says "the power of the Sannin," they are saying the power of Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Tsunade. If Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Tsunade are _not_ equal, then what  is "their" power?


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## Puppetry (Jun 14, 2015)

FlamingRain is right? Well then I concede that Tsunade is equal to Orochimaru and Jiraiya within the context of strength/combat prowess.

I don't believe that Tsunade's showings support this, but I've always argued definitive statements as trumping our interpretations of feats. It's one of the key arguments I use in advocating for Sasori. It would be dishonest of me to selectively apply this logic wherever it suits my interests.

P.S: This doesn't change how I view Sasori. I've argued his ability to beat both Orochimaru and Tsunade in the past, and I've argued his equality to the former as well.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2015)

You guys actually thought I might be lying. 



I guess I should go ahead and answer the actual thread question while I'm still in here and say I basically agree with what _Yagura_ has to say:



Yagura said:


> Overall Sasori is definitely in the realm of the Sannin - but on the cusp, really. Perhaps it'd be more accurate to say he forms a bridge bewteen the Akatsuki regulars and the Sannin. Not quite equal to them but above any of his non-ocularly endowed peers.


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## Ersa (Jun 14, 2015)

If this Sannin being equal thing is true then it's excellent.

Because Orochimaru is equal to Jiraiya and he got offed by base 13 year old Itachi.

I can roll with it.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2015)

Implying we saw more than a snippet of their first fight.


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## Ersa (Jun 14, 2015)

Perhaps not but we have  and this.

And that was a Itachi who hadn't mastered MS yet.


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## Umbrella (Jun 14, 2015)

I've always found it curious that Itachi looks no younger at all in that flashback.
Kishi isn't the greatest with timelines imo.


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## Ersa (Jun 14, 2015)

Ah well this is excellent.

This quote


> *Orochimaru*: That all would not have been necessary if we had been able to rope in Uchiha Itachi from the beginning... But that dream has died...He is stronger than I.


And the statement implying the Sannin are equal in combat is all I need to prove sickly Itachi can school Jiraiya like he did Orochimaru 

Dream generally implies significant power difference.


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## Umbrella (Jun 14, 2015)

> And that was a Itachi who hadn't mastered MS yet.



...also, where are you getting this from?


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

I have always believed the sannin to be equal tbh

every situation each sannin has been in 700 pages of manga would have ended the same way for each of them. should their roles have been reversed 

oro against 3 paths. he should beat the 3 then die

so would tsunade

tsunade and jiriaya can fight kn4 long enough, without the intention of actually killing Naruto while not at 100%

jiriaya and orochimaru can fight 5 clones without actually being able to win but just as long as tsunade did 

kishi really made quite the effort to even them out. people issue with tsunade is her lack of versatility but then again obito and A and minato aren't versatile yet very deadly 

I don't see why tsunade needs 100 techniques when she can punch 90% of the verse and kill them in 1 hit


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I see literally no difference other than amount of people lol


It surely is. You know all 3 of them. You have a clear picture of what their power is like, because we are talking specifically about 3 people around similar level.

When I say Kage level, I'm referring to a much larger group of people varying from Mei to Hashirama.

Obviously it is not the same thing.



> Cool now when were they equals. Orochimaru was handicapped throughout most of the manga-cannon and than became much stronger than Jiraiya w/ Edo-Hokage.



Ebisu asking Jiraiya to help against Orochimaru, and his implication that Jiraiya could take him, is the clear indicator that regardless of who had the edge, they were fairly close.

Also ET is not Orochimaru's power. So it is meaningless to assess him based on that.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

ET is orochimaru power
its his jutsu


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> You guys actually thought I might be lying.
> :


I didn't think you were lying, I wanted to evaluate the context. A statement from the recent Fanbook would carry a-lot more weight than a statement from a Fanbook released back at the end of the CE arc, before Kishi probably even had a clear idea of where he wanted to go with the Sannin. 



Rocky said:


> When someone says "the power of the Sannin," they are saying the power of Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Tsunade. If Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Tsunade are _not_ equal, then what  is "their" power?


Rocky it's just general hype the same as when characters talk about the 7MS. It doesn't mean they are all equal. It's just a way of saying this guy/gal is strong.[/QUOTE]



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It surely is. You know all 3 of them. You have a clear picture of what their power is like, because we are talking specifically about 3 people around similar level.
> 
> When I say Kage level, I'm referring to a much larger group of people varying from Mei to Hashirama.
> 
> ...


Again literally the only difference you've outlined here is amount of people. It's still just a general title that in no way demands all holders of it to be equal anymore than Kage, Hokage, Tsuchikage, 7MS.



> Ebisu asking Jiraiya to help against Orochimaru, and his implication that Jiraiya could take him, is the clear indicator that regardless of who had the edge, they were fairly close.


Why are we taking a clearly false statement seriously?



> Also ET is not Orochimaru's power. So it is meaningless to assess him based on tha


ET is his power.


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

there was a point in the manga that the ET is not the user's "power". When itachi and Sasuke defeated Kabuto and was talking to Sasuke about him "Kabuto".
That was a reason to why the Izanami worked because Kabuto was stealing other people's power and thinking it his own power.


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## LostSelf (Jun 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> there was a point in the manga that the ET is not the user's "power". When itachi and Sasuke defeated Kabuto and was talking to Sasuke about him "Kabuto".
> That was a reason to why the Izanami worked because Kabuto was stealing other people's power and thinking it his own power.



That's because he used Oro's powers, ET and sound 4.

Edo Tensei is obviously his powers. Saying otherwise it's like saying Gamabunta is not part of Jiraiya's power.

Or.. You know... Kyuubi .


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> there was a point in the manga that the ET is not the user's "power". When itachi and Sasuke defeated Kabuto and was talking to Sasuke about him "Kabuto".
> That was a reason to why the Izanami worked because Kabuto was stealing other people's power and thinking it his own power.



scans please. sounds made up 

no different from a basic summon, less conventional however its an easy jutsu

if a summon can be considered the summoners power then so can edo tensei 

seeing that different users have different skills with it. if it wasn't part of their power ET would have a default setting wont it since it would have nothing to do with the user since its not the users power


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> That's because he used Oro's powers, ET and sound 4.
> 
> Edo Tensei is obviously his powers. Saying otherwise it's like saying Gamabunta is not part of Jiraiya's power.
> 
> Or.. You know... Kyuubi .



Here's MP
explained
 VIZ says
 Sharingan users at once

Side Note: 
I love the ending of that fight, it's so full of the like of those


If itachi's fans take the time to read those chapters every once in a while, we will all be fine, and no more Shins will appear.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

^ what does that have to do with ET specifically considering itachi was talking about a guy who had implanted about 10 people DNA into his own to increase his power? 

try harder


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

Kabuto was saying his ET is part of his power IIRC, so itachi's statement should include them as far as I cm concerned. Anyway, that's howI understood it anyway, you don't have/need to agree.


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Rocky it's just general hype the same as when characters talk about the 7MS. It doesn't mean they are all equal. It's just a way of saying this guy/gal is strong.



The Seven Swordsman of the Mist is an organization, not a title referring to seven specific people. Kisame wasn't always part of that group, while the Sannin have always been and will always be Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade. The Sannin _isn't_ some group that those three just happen to be part of.

The "power of a Kage" is the power of a village head. The "power of the Akatsuki" is the power of the criminal Biju hunters. The "power of the Sannin" _literally_ means the power of the three ninja, and those three ninja are Tsunade, Oro, and J-man. 

So when Pain said that Jiraiya lived up to his reputation as one of the Sannin, he was saying that Jiraiya performed about as well as he'd expect Tsunade or Orochimaru to.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Seven Swordsman of the Mist is an organization, not a title referring to seven specific people. Kisame wasn't always part of that group, while the Sannin have always been and will always be Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade. The Sannin _isn't_ some group that those three just happen to be part of.
> .


Sigh...Rocky your just looking for excuses to dance around the point. Fine let's look at Team 7, who have constantly been paralleled and spoken off as if they were the Neo Sannin. Are all the members of Team 7 always equivalent to each other? 



> The "power of a Kage" is the power of a village head. The "power of the Akatsuki" is the power of the criminal Biju hunters. The "power of the Sannin" literally means the power of the three ninja, and those three ninja are Tsunade, Oro, and J-man.


Okay and nothing says they are equal. A and B were called the Strongest Tag Team. Are they equals? 



> So when Pain said that Jiraiya lived up to his reputation as one of the Sannin, he was saying that Jiraiya performed about as well as he'd expect Tsunade or Orochimaru to.


No he wasn't. He was saying he lived up to the rep of a Sannin. Rep as I very clearly outlined many times exceeds the capabilities of the character who holds it. So Orochimaru and Tsunade may or may not live up to that Rep, Jiraiya did.

Again as I said there is no point in even making that statement if Jiraiya didn't accomplish anything other than performing how Pain expected him to perform. The statement is meant to hype Jiraiya because he lived up to the Sannin Rep as Pain understands it.


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Fine let's look at Team 7, who have constantly been paralleled and spoken off as if they were the Neo Sannin. Are all the members of Team 7 always equivalent to each other?



Please direct me to the times where characters refer to the power of team seven when hyping any of its members individually. 



Turrin said:


> Okay and nothing says they are equal. A and B were called the Strongest Tag Team. Are they equals?



Actually, the fan book did. 

You just chose to ignore it. There's also a reason Kabuto spoke about how strong Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Tsunade were when he was only fighting Tsunade. 

There's also Ebisu/the Databook with the "only a member of the Sannin can beat another member" thing. Of course that wasn't true, but other characters that could down the Sannin weren't introduced yet IIRC. 



Turrin said:


> So Orochimaru and Tsunade may or may not live up to that Rep, Jiraiya did.



Tsunade & Orochimaru "may or may not" live up to the reputation of a Sannin despite their power being the very thing that established that reputation in the first place?

_What?_ 

----------

Is there a reason you don't see them as equals? The portrayal that they were equals is obvious. *Obvious. *

I think you'd have to be on something if you missed the Snake > Toad > Slug > Snake motif that Kishi was trying to push. Orochimaru beats Jiraiya who beats Tsunade who beats Orochimaru.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

^ not sure about the tsunade beating orochimaru thing. the best she can do is draw

she got no way to deal with ET for example


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## StickaStick (Jun 14, 2015)

I think the fact of the matter is that while Kishi might want the Sannin to be seen as equal from a narrative perspective, the reality of the situation is that they're not. That's not even debatable. You could sit here and say if, for example, Oro or Tsunade had infiltrated Amegakure and confronted Pain they too would have done a similar amount of damage to the tune of taking out three bodies and even another after being seriously injured (in Jiraiya's case losing an arm) and I would agree with that wholeheartedly. Or if the narrative called for them to fight one-on-one with each other any percieved differences in power would be alleviated by the relatively weaker member receiving some kind of boost to even things out (e.g., show some "new" ability). 

It's literally the same thing Kishi had to do with Naruto and Sasuke; i.e., we were always led to believe that they were more-or-less equal, despite it being pretty obvious that Naruto was always an inch or two above Sasuke when comparing them at similar points during the story.

So, actual story they're intended to be seen as equal , and plot will dictate it when and where necessary.

BD, not equal because random power-ups aren't going to appear out of thin air to make up for any difference there might be.

Unfortunately since the plot rarely (if ever) called for all three members to be seen as equal, it never really translated in any tangible way to what we saw in the manga canon.


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

> It's literally the same thing Kishi had to do with Naruto and Sasuke; i.e., we were always led to believe that they were more-or-less equal, despite it being pretty obvious that Naruto was always an inch or two above Sasuke when comparing them at similar points during the story.



Not really. Kishi made Sasuke state flat out that Naruto has always been a head of him, but the fanboys do not want to admit as such for whatever agenda they have.

The example you gave with pain is also different towards the sannin because they have completely different fighting style, and knowledge, and it was made clear that only Jiraiya who can make it that far in this case. What people do not want to understand (when it comes to the sannin specifically, and you know the reason why) is them having different fighting style. Yes, they are generally in the same level, and their abilities would work against each other like Snake > Toad > Slug > Snake. However, to apply one of the sannin show against X or Y, to others, is pretty retarded. 

In the example you gave, neither Tsunade nor Oro would have gone as far as Jiraiya did. However, in another scenario, which is when Pain attacked Konoha, neither Jiraiya nor Oro would come even close to what she did to save a lot of people's assess.


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## StickaStick (Jun 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Not really. *Kishi made Sasuke state flat out that Naruto has always been a head of him*, but the fanboys do not want to admit as such for whatever agenda they have.


Could I get a link? I don't even see how this is really possible considering beginning of PTII Sasuke was clearly ahead of Naruto and by a significant amount.



> The example you gave with pain is also different towards the sannin because they have completely different fighting style, and knowledge, and it was made clear that only Jiraiya who can make it that far in this case. What people do not want to understand (when it comes to the sannin specifically, and you know the reason why) is them having different fighting style. Yes, they are generally in the same level, and their abilities would work against each other like Snake > Toad > Slug > Snake. However, to apply one of the sannin show against X or Y, to others, is pretty retarded.


See the thing you're arguing is logic while I'm taking about from a narrative standpoint. Obviously Jiraiya possessed an arsenal and fighting style that lent itself to doing well against Pain, something Oro and Tsunade with their capabilities might not necessarily have been able to replicate. I get that. But what I'm saying is in a parallel universe where Oro or Tsunade are in Jiraiaya's spot instead, they _would _have done a similar amount of damage to Pain because the narrative would have called for them to seen as equals even if they shouldn't be. 

Just imagine instead of Jiraiya debuting the SM power-up, Oro or Tsunade do something similar instead.



> In the example you gave, neither Tsunade nor Oro would have gone as far as Jiraiya did. However, in another scenario, which is when Pain attacked Konoha, neither Jiraiya nor Oro would come even close to what she did to save a lot of people's assess.


If it were Oro or Jiraiya in Konoha instead of Tsunade then I don't think Kishi would have had Pain nuke the village in the first place lol. I don't find the situation comparable anyway because Tsunade saving the villagers was a non-combat situation and not really about power in the sense that I'm taking about it here, in contrast to how confronting Pain was.


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

I don't have the Viz translation right no, but I guess this one could perhaps do it?
4

"you always walked in front of me much like my brother used to be, and today too" 
I think there are some differences in the words with Viz, but my memory is foggy at this point. I haven't read it
since too long.  

I agree with the rest more or less.



> If it were Oro or Jiraiya in Konoha instead of Tsunade then I don't think Kishi would have had Pain nuke the village in the first place lol. I don't find the situation comparable anyway because Tsunade saving the villagers was a non-combat situation and not really about power in the sense that I'm taking about it here, in contrast to how confronting Pain was.



Precisely. In the battldome, people think X will do this, and Y will NECESSARILY do this or that depending on their stand for Y to lose or to win, even if Y has never been seen in A situation for us to know how would they deal with it. 

Yes, but she wasted a lot of her power as such, and I believe Kishi stated that he was planning to make Tsunade punch the Tendo, and make Pain retreat (not out of defeat), but the editors disagreed and told him to make Naruto go back, and fight Pain from the start. 

However, if it's up to the debaters, they will say she is as slow as a slag, and can't hit anyone whatsoever. lol
Probably not even Konohamaru's friend.


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## StickaStick (Jun 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't have the Viz translation right no, but I guess this one could perhaps do it?
> 4
> 
> "you always walked in front of me much like my brother used to be, and today too"
> ...


I don't know if it's different in the Viz, but I think here with this translation it's important to consider what's said before: "*You had a kind of strength I was missing*". 

Furthermore, as well as to Naruto he compares that _kind of_ strength to what Itachi had that he didn't. From this is seems pretty clear to me he's inferring that understanding of bonds and the ability to lean on others (even if Itach didn't have the latter until after he died). This, as it states, even went back to their Team 7 missions when Sasuke was > Naruto (as Naruto felt so himself) so that alone should tell us Sasuke is not referring to individual power, but that something else that Naruto always had and he lacked.



> Precisely. In the battldome, people think X will do this, and Y will NECESSARILY do this or that depending on their stand for Y to lose or to win, even if Y has never been seen in A situation for us to know how would they deal with it; i.e., bonds and shit.
> 
> Yes, but she wasted a lot of her power as such, and I believe Kishi stated that he was planning to make Tsunade punch the Tendo, and make Pain retreat (not out of defeat), but the editors disagreed and told him to make Naruto go back, and fight Pain from the start.
> 
> ...


lol yup, pretty much agree here.


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Yeah, what Tsunade has shown is easily on the level of Orochimaru. She doesn't have anything quite as good as Sage Mode, but Jiraiya needs preparation to use that form.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Or if the narrative called for them to fight one-on-one with each other any percieved differences in power would be alleviated by the relatively weaker member receiving some kind of boost to even things out (e.g., show some "new" ability).
> 
> So, actual story they're intended to be seen as equal , and plot will dictate it when and where necessary.
> 
> BD, not equal because random power-ups aren't going to appear out of thin air to make up for any difference there might be.



Jiraiya said he would kill Tsunade as opposed to taking out Orochimaru when he learned that she might strike a deal with him. Orochimaru hid behind Kabuto's plan and hemophobia against Tsunade even though he didn't hesitate to go after Jiraiya. Tsunade didn't even argue with Jiraiya's death threat but then said she was going to kill Orochimaru.

Then once he got to the battlefield itself _this happened_ not long after which _this happened_.

I don't think they need any random power ups to be honest. The way I see it:

*1.* Sage Mode Jiraiya has multiple high-level, body-enveloping wide-ranged offenses that can burn through Tsunade's Chakra stock and thus regeneration faster than he exhausts himself using said techniques (due to the cost efficiency of Senjutsu and the elder toads on his shoulders).

*2.* Orochimaru can survive Jiraiya's attacks and is deadly to anyone who can't counter his paralytic neurotoxins, which he is likely to resort to before simply getting outlasted.

*3.* Tsunade's supplementary regeneration abilities allow her to speed through the effects of those neurotoxins and keep fighting while Jiraiya has no such skills to counter.

Toad > Slug > Snake > Toad would probably happen again as it is.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Again literally the only difference you've outlined here is amount of people. It's still just a general title that in no way demands all holders of it to be equal anymore than Kage, Hokage, Tsuchikage, 7MS.


Amount of people + the fact that they are well known for being around the same level. 
"Kage level" flactuates in power. Sannin doesn't.




> Why are we taking a clearly false statement seriously?


What is false about it ?



> ET is his power.


It clearly isn't.

Oro with ET is like Konan with years of prep. It is completely circumstantial and obviously based on how well he is prepped.
Also Itachi said that Kabuto thought other people's power were his own and said that line of thinking was wrong.

I truth trust the author's judgement over yours.


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## StickaStick (Jun 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya said he would kill Tsunade as opposed to taking out Orochimaru when he learned that she might strike a deal with him. Orochimaru hid behind Kabuto's plan and hemophobia against Tsunade even though he didn't hesitate to go after Jiraiya. Tsunade didn't even argue with Jiraiya's death threat but then said she was going to kill Orochimaru.
> 
> Then once he got to the battlefield itself _this happened_ not long after which _this happened_.
> 
> ...


Well, two things: one, I'm not sure if you're necessarily disagreeing with me here, as at this point in the story I wouldn't find it the notion that they were legitimately equal a ridiculous one. The one thing I would dispute is your assertion that Jiraiya isn't comfortably above Oro *and *Tsunade at that point of the Sannin Showdown via his Sage-Mode.

Secondly, and this relates to my first point, I can't really agree with the representation of how each one-on-one match-up would go down. E.g., from a story perspective I have no problem agreeing that each would play into the whole Slug-beats-snake-beats-toad-beats-slug bit, but in a BD scenario Jiraiya is probably going to hop on Gama, keep his distance from Oro, enter SM and then prep Gama Rinshō and then it doesn't really matter what kinds of poisons Oro might try use against him. Know what I'm saying?

Furthermore, your scenario from what I can tell doesn't address the issue of stuff like Oro receiving his Edo-Hokage ET power-up which puts him in another stratosphere as compared to his Sannin brethren. From my perspective if Kishi were to match Oro w/Edo-Hokage ET with Jiraiya and Oro and the narrative called for them to continue to be seen as equal then both would somehow find there way to matching Oro in power; but that of course would require them to receive some sort of power-up and it would come out of thin air.


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oro with ET is like *Konan with years of prep.* It is completely circumstantial and obviously based on how well he is prepped.



lol, what years are you talking about?


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## StickaStick (Jun 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It clearly isn't.
> 
> Oro with ET is like Konan with years of prep. It is completely circumstantial and obviously based on how well he is prepped.
> Also Itachi said that Kabuto thought other people's power were his own and said that line of thinking was wrong.
> ...


Except it clearly is. You're taking what Itachi said (and thus the author's intent of said message) out of context. Suffice to say he's not _literally _saying it's not his power (otherwise how does he use the technique lol?) but that from a spiritual kind of standpoint that he shouldn't consider them apart of himself and he should accept himself for who he really is.  

Comparing the prep of ET to Konan prepping her Kami no Shisha is ridiculous. It's more like prepping kunais or smoke bombs. For example, When Oro fought Hiruzen he was ready to use ET at the outset without having to do a whole bunch of shit. Konan had to do tons of prep before hand and move Obito to a specific location.


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## Umbrella (Jun 14, 2015)

Human sacrifice for someone like Orochimaru is like what remembering to pack your shuriken in the morning is for a normal ninja. 

It only needs to be done once - and then can be used repeatedly.


Rocky said:


> Yeah, what Tsunade has shown is easily on the level of Orochimaru. She doesn't have anything quite as good as Sage Mode, but Jiraiya needs preparation to use that form.



Invisible toxic vapor is easily better than anything in Tsunade's arsenal imo.
It's basically Frog Song but much more discreet and doesn't require as much prep. Nor does it have any known counters like Genjutsu does.

And presumably you're excluding Edo Tensei.


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

Pretty sure Jiraiya hyped Tsunade for her medicines that have no smell or test or something like that to be a great help in the War time. 
which was also shown when she made Jiraiya significantly weaker.


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## Umbrella (Jun 14, 2015)

Well, that's great if she's sitting next to someone in a pub.


Not so great in battle.


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

So you think when she was using that in the second War she was inviting everyone of the enemy to a cup of coffee/sake?  

Because as far as I am concerned a War IS a battle, a huge one mind you...


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## Umbrella (Jun 14, 2015)

I think you're mixing up two different pieces of hype.

She was hyped as being the only person capable of drugging a ninja without them knowing. Like when she slipped something into Jiraiya's drink while they were at a pub.


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

mmmm, here is the page
this happened

He's saying that she can create tasteless, and odorless drug* to use against another Ninja*. I highly doubt
that, that is the only way she can do it. Because it's barely relevant if she can't use it against another ninja in actual battle.


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## Umbrella (Jun 14, 2015)

Well, if her opponent decides to crack open a bottle of sake in the middle of battle they're in for a surprise!

Covert operations is probably what it'd be useful for. They _are_ ninja, after all.


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

you're thinking way too far imo. 
Tsunade was hyped to be the reason Konoha won in the 2nd War. It's EXTREMELY unlikely that every time she wants to do as such, that she would use the way you're suggesting here. Even if it works once or twice (assuming the enemy is really THAT retarded), than it's highly exaggerated to think she would do this and success every time to the point of bringing victory.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Please direct me to the times where characters refer to the power of team seven when hyping any of its members individually.


When Hiruzen says they are just like the Sannin.



> Actually, the fan book did.
> 
> You just chose to ignore it. There's also a reason Kabuto spoke about how strong Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Tsunade were when he was only fighting Tsunade.
> 
> There's also Ebisu/the Databook with the "only a member of the Sannin can beat another member" thing. Of course that wasn't true, but other characters that could down the Sannin weren't introduced yet IIRC.


The Fan-book says Rusty-Tsunade = Armless-Oro = Jiraiya. I also believe it says Enma is the strongest summon, so Enma > Kyuubi. If you want to believe Kishi knew exactly where the story was headed back around the CE then be my guest, but that is some serious nonsensical shit you have to believe.



> sunade & Orochimaru "may or may not" live up to the reputation of a Sannin despite their power being the very thing that established that reputation in the first place?


So you believe Tsunade > Kaguya? Because according to Ebisu's understanding of the Sannin rep, only a sannin can beat a sannin.

And again Rocky I'll offer you the same chance as everybody else, show me one point and time in the manga where the Sannin are indeed equal and I'll concede.


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

The Sannin are equals without any handicaps.

So it would be Part I Orochimaru (before any body failure) = in-shape Tsunade = Jiraiya.

I don't see anything contracting that, unless you give Tsunade Sakura's nonsensical god tier feat of powering Kaguya's technique.


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

> =Turrin;53775118]
> Let me get this straight Hussain. Your argument is that because the knives didn't go through Sasuke, that weapon damage can be inconsistent and therefore based on this inconsistency Minato could have possibly through an inconsistency damage Ei with his Kunai. What kind of weakass argument is that, not only is it arguing for an inconsistency which is pointless in a discussion of strength, but it relies on the idea that Shin can't manipulate how much force is behind each weapon and didn't want the weapons to stick in Sasuke to stop his movements.


No, my argument is just because you think something is a common sense (in your opinion) that does not mean the other possibility can't happen. If B thought that what you think is a common sense, and there is no point to interfere, he wouldn't have interfered.  

As such, that attack IS meant to be taken as a threat that A's guard had to protect him, in which A told him "sorry B" or something. If that did not matter to him, or he could have used it to his advantage, that wouldn't have been his statement to him.  

- So you're saying stopping Sasuke's movement is more important to cut him into pieces? 



> "would never be surpassed". That is future tense.




"there was never a man that could surpass him" 
Is not the same as there won't be a man who can surpass him as far as I know. 
using Kaguya when she is NOT a common knowledge, or myths is just ridiculous to take his hype away. 


> And if you want to go off of knowledge. Than Ei's statement isn't worth shit. Because who the heck did he know about, that I haven't already put Minato above.



Please. 
He for once knows about B, which you put him above Minato even tho Minato was handling their asses to them in canon. 

and he surely is not ignorent about the previous generations as well, and he sure knows about his father and his abilities that people think it would make Minato forced to kill himself. 

Oh, did I mention that it's in their area where the 3rd Kazekage existed as well?


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No, my argument is just because you think something is a common sense (in your opinion) that does not mean the other possibility can't happen. If B thought that what you think is a common sense, and there is no point to interfere, he wouldn't have interfered.
> 
> As such, that attack IS meant to be taken as a threat that A's guard had to protect him, in which A told him "sorry B" or something. If that did not matter to him, or he could have used it to his advantage, that wouldn't have been his statement to him.


I never said the attack wouldn't do anything to Ei, I said it was not defeating Ei. So your argument is moot.



> "there was never a man that could surpass him"
> Is not the same as there won't be a man who can surpass him as far as I know.
> using Kaguya when she is NOT a common knowledge, or myths is just ridiculous to take his hype away.


I'm aware of your shitty translation. I use the actual raw and/or good translations.



> He for once knows about B, which you put him above Minato even tho Minato was handling their asses to them in canon


The very same interaction show Ei underestimated B's strength significantly. He thought B couldn't beat his Lariate and fucking B beat him in Base.



> nd he surely is not ignorent about the previous generations as well, and he sure knows about his father and his abilities that people think it would make Minato forced to kill himself.


Again give me names Hussain, who did he know about that I didn't put Minato above. I.E. what are you actually bitching about.



> Oh, did I mention that it's in their area where the 3rd Kazekage existed as well?


Minato is stronger than Sandaime-Kazekage, so that doesn't surprise me at all.


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2015)

> =Turrin;53791331]I never said the attack wouldn't do anything to Ei, I said it was not defeating Ei. So your argument is moot.


Defeating him or not, is once again your opinion on the matter as well. Just like how Oro can be cut in half without a problem normally, but in the fight with itachi cutting his arm with a basic genjutsu considered a defeat. As such, If A got that strike, he would have been marked as well, and as such
be at Minato's mercy for the rest of his life. Just like how Minato maked B's tail. 


> I'm aware of your shitty translation. I use the actual raw and/or good translations.


Well, it's not really "my translation" lol, but in this case, could you perhaps put the full translation?
Because I don't know how/why would you expect that I just know what you have and talk to me about
the future tense when you know there is no way I could have known that, Turrin.  


> The very same interaction show Ei underestimated B's strength significantly. He thought B couldn't beat his Lariate and fucking B beat him in Base.


You do know now that A lost his strongest arm right? Not as if having a stronger Lariate would mean jack-shit really. *face Pffff here* I couldn't find the face. 


> Again give me names Hussain, who did he know about that I didn't put Minato above. I.E. what are you actually bitching about.
> 
> 
> Minato is stronger than Sandaime-Kazekage, so that doesn't surprise me at all.



They know about the Akatsuki and the fact that Onoki was using them. He knows some other names, but I just don't want to have a headache, so they don't matter.  

Tho, it's rather fanny that you admit Minato is stronger than the Kazekage, when you keep mentioning how Sasori defeating the strongest Kazekage....and all that old story somehow makes Sasori the superior one and all that.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Defeating him or not, is once again your opinion on the matter as well. Just like how Oro can be cut in half without a problem normally, but in the fight with itachi cutting his arm with a basic genjutsu considered a defeat.


No one believes Itachi beat Orochimaru by cutting off his hand other than fanboys, and this is exactly what this type of logic is fanboy BS.



> As such, If A got that strike, he would have been marked as well, and as such
> be at Minato's mercy for the rest of his life. Just like how Minato maked B's tail.


Kunai can not mark people 



> Well, it's not really "my translation" lol, but in this case, could you perhaps put the full translation?
> Because I don't know how/why would you expect that I just know what you have and talk to me about
> the future tense when you know there is no way I could have known that, Turrin.  .


Ei, "Among Shinboi there is no Shinobi faster than I" "since Yondaime Hokage is gone"

Ei, "we had several bouts in the past" "He was a man that I believed no shinobi would surpass"

Ei, "That guy Jiraiya of konoha's sannin told me he was the child of prophecy....he was supposed to be the savior as it were"

There's my translation.



> You do know now that A lost his strongest arm right? Not as if having a stronger Lariate would mean jack-shit really. *face Pffff here* I couldn't find the face.


What the fuck does that have to do with anything. Ei knows he doesn't have his arm and yet still says B can't beat him and than gets owned by Base-B. He vastly underestimated him. 



> They know about the Akatsuki and the fact that Onoki was using them. He knows some other names, but I just don't want to have a headache, so they don't matter.


I will ask one more time Hussain, who did he know about that I actually put above Minato. I don't think you even know what your whining about.



> Tho, it's rather fanny that you admit Minato is stronger than the Kazekage, when you keep mentioning how Sasori defeating the strongest Kazekage....and all that old story somehow makes Sasori the superior one and all that.


I actually never said that Hussain, so yeah that is pretty funny. And I literally placed Minato above Sasori on the list that you were bitching about. So again I think you don't know what your complaining about and I'll wait for you to man up to that fact and apologize for your nonsense.


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## Umbrella (Jun 14, 2015)

Where does it say that that specific ability of hers is what brought them victory?

Her noted contributions during the war if I recall were creating antidotes for Chiyo's poisons and having Hiruzen make sending a medic with every squad required. Nothing about soloing entire battles with some mass... drugging attack.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 20, 2015)

If you look at it based on feats and what they have done, Orochimaru stands above them all and Jiraiya falls in line after and Tsunade is the weakest. If you take the whole snake-frog-slug thing, then Jiraiya is stronger than Tsunade, but Tsunade is superior to Orochimaru and Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya 

But regardless of what they were hyped to be, if you go by feats, Sasori is at best barely Tsunade level. Orochimaru and Jiraiya would destroy him.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 20, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Well, two things: one, I'm not sure if you're necessarily disagreeing with me here.



I'm disagreeing with the part where new power ups are necessary in order for them to be seen as equal were they to fight each other again. Kishi doesn't need to do that imo.



> The one thing I would dispute is your assertion that Jiraiya isn't comfortably above Oro *and* Tsunade at that point of the Sannin Showdown via his Sage-Mode.



Where did I say that?

I'm not sure if Jiraiya could have even accessed Sage Mode during the Sannin showdown, since he was still being affected by the drug when it took place.



> In a BD scenario Jiraiya is probably going to hop on Gama, keep his distance from Oro, enter SM and then prep Gama Rinshō and then it doesn't really matter what kinds of poisons Oro might try use against him. Know what I'm saying?



I don't think Gamabunta can keep his distance from Manda. If Jiraiya tried biding for Sage Mode the same way he did against Animal he would die, imho. Fukasaku and Shima also didn't immediately attempt Gamarinshō against Pain when they fought in Konoha (I guess because it wears out their throats and most of their Jutsu they spit out of their mouths).

Gamarinshō won't actually kill Orochimaru anyway. It'll immobilize him, but it's effects shouldn't last longer than the users themselves maintain the technique. That's why once it lands there's still striking a finishing blow in the real world left to do, why Jiraiya only said "it's finally over" _after_ impaling the last body. The issue is the resulting injury is not going to kill Orochimaru either. I'm unsure if being caught would cancel Orochimaru's Yamata transformation (Izanami didn't cancel out Sage Mode, even though Kabuto halted), and I doubt it would turn him back into his normal looking body if he's reverted to his true white snake form (since it is…his true form).

Jiraiya would soon find himself ironically being the one unable to move and at his opponent's mercy.



> Furthermore, your scenario from what I can tell doesn't address the issue of stuff like Oro receiving his Edo-Hokage ET power-up which puts him in another stratosphere as compared to his Sannin brethren.



Right. I'm talking about Orochimaru's own default/standard power. The Orochimaru who Itachi is admittedly more powerful than and whose greatest and most powerful technique is Yamata no Jutsu, not prepped Edo Hokages. _That's_ who Kishimoto would be expected to depict Jiraiya and Tsunade as equivalent to in the story as I see it.

I'm all for Jiraiya and Tsunade being equal to _Orochimaru_, not Orochimaru plus Hashirama+Tobirama+Hiruzen+Minato.

I don't think Kishi would have the Sage of Six Paths come back and boost Jiraiya and Tsunade to match Edo Tensei Hashirama and co. or anything, Orochimaru just wouldn't have the Edo Hokages prepared. I don't think it's like remembering kunais or smoke bombs as when Orochimaru was revived he had DNA on him but not live sacrifices, which is why he needed the Zetsus to perform the technique, and in Part 1 he knew in advance that he was going to fight Hiruzen and prepared Edo Tensei Hashi and Tobi specifically in order to torture him.

Most threads involving Orochimaru in the BD stipulate that he doesn't have Edo Tensei ready anyway (or at least they have since I've been here).

So again, I don't think they need any random power ups coming out of thin air in order for the deadlock to show itself again.


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## Puppetry (Jun 20, 2015)

This does bring up an interesting point - that the equality of the Sannin is predicated on the restriction of Orochimaru's Edo Tensei (or at least, excluding it while considering his power).

I suppose it depends on whether or not Kishimoto considered such factors when developing the Sannin.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 20, 2015)

^ I don't think he did, but in the same respect, each of them has their own unique ability. It just so happens Orochimaru's is the most broken. He's easily in the top 5 with that ability.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 20, 2015)

the sannin aren't supposed to be equal in combat capability.
 they are equal in stature, which is based on their reputation, which is in turn based on their ninjutsu, of which, has been ostensibly quantified throughout.

Their trio of ninjutsu repertoires  are all quite different...

Tsunade isn't as good a fighter as jiraiya, but he isn't as goood in support & he can't heal at all

sasoris level of ninjutsu is a great paralell to theirs; not gimmicky, not 1 dimensional & battlefield changing, etc...


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## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Where did I say that?


Unless I misundertood you, it seems pretty obvious when you say slug > snake > frog > slug , that implies Tsunade > Oro > Jiraiya > Tsunade which places Jiraiya anywhere from first to third depending on the opposing Sannin. 



> I'm not sure if Jiraiya could have even accessed Sage Mode during the Sannin showdown, since he was still being affected by the drug when it took place.


I was only speaking of their levels at that particular point of the story, not literally at the point of which they were all nerfed by one ailment or another. 



> I don't think Gamabunta can keep his distance from Manda. If Jiraiya tried biding for Sage Mode the same way he did against Animal he would die, imho. Fukasaku and Shima also didn't immediately attempt Gamarinshō against Pain when they fought in Konoha (I guess because it wears out their throats and most of their Jutsu they spit out of their mouths).


How is Manda going to keep up with Gama when he's jumping high up in the air and at varying angles?

Location I'd say factored primarily in Jiraiya's inability to enter SM with less difficultly considering he had to navigate a condensed area that was unfamiliar to him.

IIRC Jiraiya and the Elder Toads went to Gamarinsho once it became apparent what kind of opponent they were dealing with. Against Oro who possesses a signature ability to tank hits and move evasively I have no problem believing that Jiraiya would go to it early. 



> Gamarinshō won't actually kill Orochimaru anyway. It'll immobilize him, but it's effects shouldn't last longer than the users themselves maintain the technique. That's why once it lands there's still striking a finishing blow in the real world left to do, why Jiraiya only said "it's finally over" _after_ impaling the last body. The issue is the resulting injury is not going to kill Orochimaru either. I'm unsure if being caught would cancel Orochimaru's Yamata transformation (Izanami didn't cancel out Sage Mode, even though Kabuto halted), and I doubt it would turn him back into his normal looking body if he's reverted to his true white snake form (since it is…his true form).
> 
> Jiraiya would soon find himself ironically being the one unable to move and at his opponent's mercy.


He could probably place him into one of his toads dimensions like he did Animal Path and let him rot there. If Oro happens to be in his Yamata form then a Sage enhanced Yomi Numa could probably solo instead.



> Right. I'm talking about Orochimaru's own default/standard power. The Orochimaru who Itachi is admittedly more powerful than and whose greatest and most powerful technique is Yamata no Jutsu, not prepped Edo Hokages. _That's_ who Kishimoto would be expected to depict Jiraiya and Tsunade as equivalent to in the story as I see it.
> 
> I'm all for Jiraiya and Tsunade being equal to _Orochimaru_, not Orochimaru plus Hashirama+Tobirama+Hiruzen+Minato.


The problem with this is that is discounts the fact that Oro actually _does _possess this extremely OP ability (as of th end of PTII, at least; who knows about the Gaiden). If you're going to say the Sannin are equal then these things need to be taken into consideration. 



> I don't think Kishi would have the Sage of Six Paths come back and boost Jiraiya and Tsunade to match Edo Tensei Hashirama and co. or anything, Orochimaru just wouldn't have the Edo Hokages prepared. I don't think it's like remembering kunais or smoke bombs as when Orochimaru was revived he had DNA on him but not live sacrifices, which is why he needed the Zetsus to perform the technique, and in Part 1 he knew in advance that he was going to fight Hiruzen and prepared Edo Tensei Hashi and Tobi specifically in order to torture him.


Oro being revived and not having live sacrifices on him is a lot like Jiraiya getting out of bed first thign in the morning and not having his ninja shit on him. I.e., would would they?

The one legit fight Oro was apart of without handicaps he had it prepped, so I don't think it's unfair to say under normal circumstances he would have it prepared. I mean, preppring live sacrifices for ET for Oro (or rather Kabuto, since he would probably be doing the dirty work) would be like anyone else prepping kunais or smoke bombs on their own time to have them ready. 



> Most threads involving Orochimaru in the BD stipulate that he doesn't have Edo Tensei ready anyway (or at least they have since I've been here).


Well, yeah. That's because Oro w/ Edo-Hokage rapes 99% of the NV 

Doesn't mean it isn't his own power, if that's what you were insinuating.


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## Icegaze (Jun 21, 2015)

orochimaru with edo tensei isn't the most broken I don't get why people would think with it he is above jiriaya 

first off the level of his ET aren't much to SM jiraiya regardless of who he summons. jiraiya can also get rid of most of oro ET in 1 jutsu so it really isn't that big a deal 

while tsunade isn't a good match for orochimaru she certainly is for jiriaya 

one more time each sannin jutsu is simply more broken than what sasori has


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## LostSelf (Jun 21, 2015)

Tsunade is not a good matchup for Jiraiya, it's the other way around. Jiraiya has a jutsus that can exhausts her regen fast because they stick to the body and have huge AoE (wich covers her body completely. And Yomi Numa hard counters the almighty Herald-Level slug.

She is a better match to Orochimaru.

Aside from that, none of the other two Sannins can counter Hashirama. Or to be fair, Minato.


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## Icegaze (Jun 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Tsunade is not a good matchup for Jiraiya, it's the other way around. Jiraiya has a jutsus that can exhausts her regen fast because they stick to the body and have huge AoE (wich covers her body completely. And Yomi Numa hard counters the almighty Herald-Level slug.
> 
> She is a better match to Orochimaru.
> 
> Aside from that, none of the other two Sannins can counter Hashirama. Or to be fair, Minato.



well oil sticking to her body which is what am sure you mean is all nice and dandy but 2.5 years worth of chakra will keep healing in any case and skin burn isn't going to slow her down 

however all she need do is punch jiriaya once and he dies casually 

YN doesn't counter katsuyu at all. it simply divides its top bits and reforms. 5% katsuyu is massive so jiriaya will need to keep using YN to render katsuyu into a little version of itself 

she is an awful match to orochimaru. she cant kill him with a punch if oro begged her to 

she also has zero answer to edo tensei. that's more likely to exhaust her than jiraiya lol oil 

she can keep fighting the tensei for years and they will keep coming at her


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## Empathy (Jun 21, 2015)

Sannin equality doesn't make a lot of sense considering Orochimaru's strength varied wildly throughout the manga.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Unless I misundertood you, it seems pretty obvious when you say slug > snake > frog > slug , that implies Tsunade > Oro > Jiraiya > Tsunade which places Jiraiya anywhere from first to third depending on the opposing Sannin.
> 
> I was only speaking of their levels at that particular point of the story, not literally at the point of which they were all nerfed by one ailment or another.



I was just pointing out that they abided by that relationship already. At the point of the Sannin showdown they were _mutually_ handicapped, but _each_ of them being alleviated of their handicaps should leave them in a deadlock, I would suspect.

Jiraiya when he's not under the influence = Tsunade when she's not rusty = Orochimaru when he's not suffering from necrosis in his arms. The Sannin showdown involving Drugged Jiraiya, Rusty Tsunade, and Armless Orochimaru was a glimpse of that.

Obviously I agree that a Jiraiya that isn't drugged would be stronger than still-handicapped versions of Tsunade and Orochimaru. If he weren't, he'd be weaker.



> How is Manda going to keep up with Gama when he's jumping high up in the air and at varying angles?
> 
> Location I'd say factored primarily in Jiraiya's inability to enter SM with less difficultly considering he had to navigate a condensed area that was unfamiliar to him.
> 
> IIRC Jiraiya and the Elder Toads went to Gamarinsho once it became apparent what kind of opponent they were dealing with. Against Oro who possesses a signature ability to tank hits and move evasively I have no problem believing that Jiraiya would go to it early.



Manda is faster, and jumps are predictable. Gamabunta cannot change directions in mid-air- if Gamabunta jumps in the air Manda can run over to where he'd land and wait for him to come down.

Navigating the area wasn't the problem. Jiraiya was having difficulty because Gamaken couldn't give him a smoother ride than he did while the transformation requires that he stay still. Gamabunta leaping sky-high and then crash-landing is also most likely not going to be a smooth ride, and it certainly won't be with Manda harassing him.

The elder toads should have retained that knowledge when they fought Pain alongside Naruto, yet they waited until fairly late in the game to attempt Gamarinshō, so I don't expect them to try it early IC.



> He could probably place him into one of his toads dimensions like he did Animal Path and let him rot there. If Oro happens to be in his Yamata form then a Sage enhanced Yomi Numa could probably solo instead.



Jiraiya would be in there with him at first though, and falling into a lake of acid would snap Orochimaru out of the Genjutsu too because acid is painful.

Suffocating is also painful, and I'm not sure Yomi Numa is actually strong enough to hold Yamata. It held down that giant brown snake effectively enough, but _Manda_ should be much stronger than that one and Yamata is stronger than Manda. I mean it's possible that the swamp was way more than strong enough to immobilize that brown snake, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case, so I tend to just sit it at around that level and assume that entities significantly stronger than that can most likely muscle their way out of it.

The databook says Yomi Numa scales in size, not strength.



> Oro being revived and not having live sacrifices on him is a lot like Jiraiya getting out of bed first thign in the morning and not having his ninja shit on him. I.e., would would they?
> 
> The one legit fight Oro was apart of without handicaps he had it prepped, so I don't think it's unfair to say under normal circumstances he would have it prepared. I mean, preppring live sacrifices for ET for Oro (or rather Kabuto, since he would probably be doing the dirty work) would be like anyone else prepping kunais or smoke bombs on their own time to have them ready.



If you apply that reasoning Orochimaru shouldn't have had the DNA on him either.

The fight with Hiruzen isn't a normal circumstance and I wouldn't use it as an example of one. Normal circumstance, I think, is a random or abrupt encounter. Orochimaru planned to fight Hiruzen well ahead of time and the databook says "To hurt his teacher, he readies the cruelest stage by bringing back the souls of the dead." implying Orochimaru only prepared it in order to screw with Hiruzen emotionally. It isn't like he always had it ready and then just decided to summon it once he fought Hiruzen or he wouldn't have been able to use people who participated in the Chūnin Exams as sacrifices.

You would really consider Edo Tensei more like you would Konan's ability to transmute 600 billion explosive tags to match the environment than you would any average ninja prepping kunai. Konan possesses that ability but because she doesn't have it ready most of the time it's not usually considered when evaluating her power. Orochimaru normally does not have Edo Tensei ready.

If he did, Kishi wouldn't have said Yamata no Jutsu was Orochimaru's greatest and most powerful technique.

Also, when you say "as of the end of PT II at least; who knows about the Gaiden" what do you mean? Did Orochimaru forget how to use Edo Tensei or do ninja not prep kunai when they go out anymore? Because at the end of PTII Edo Tensei was released. Unless you're starting to agree that it's not like standard equipment for him I don't see what difference there is between Part 2 and the Gaiden.



> Well, yeah. That's because Oro w/ Edo-Hokage rapes 99% of the NV
> 
> Doesn't mean it isn't his own power, if that's what you were insinuating.



I pointed it out because I thought your main point was that even if they are equal from a story-telling perspective "in the BD" they aren't. _In the BD_, though, Orochimaru does not normally have Edo Tensei prepared, so we don't need to concern ourselves with a power up to match Edo Tensei.

He really doesn't normally have it prepared in the story either, though.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> well oil sticking to her body which is what am sure you mean is all nice and dandy but 2.5 years worth of chakra will keep healing in any case and skin burn isn't going to slow her down



Tsunade is resilient to pain but oil or lava from Goemon sticking to her for prolonged periods of time would start to have an impact on her physical performance eventually. Madara's swords dual-slicing her abdomen showed that. 



> however all she need do is punch jiriaya once and he dies casually



That is true, but Jiraiya can easily avoid CQC with Tsunade by sitting on Gamabunta and bouncing away from her. She can jump large distances quickly but not as quickly as Gamabunta can.



> YN doesn't counter katsuyu at all. it simply divides its top bits and reforms. 5% katsuyu is massive so jiriaya will need to keep using YN to render katsuyu into a little version of itself



 It would make more sense for Tsunade to resummon Katsuyu out of the mud. Since she has more chakra than he does it will hinder him more to keep making giant mud puddles than for Tsunade to continually resummon. 



> she is an awful match to orochimaru. she cant kill him with a punch if oro begged her to



Tsunade KO'd Orochimaru temporarily in Part I. Granted he regenerated and got back up again, but still. She can exhaust his chakra reserves by making him regenerate time and and time again by continually hitting him. Orochimaru will have difficulty wearing her down because she can dodge or rely on Katsuyu to protect her from the majority of his techniques. 



> she also has zero answer to edo tensei. that's more likely to exhaust her than jiraiya lol oil



That is true, but then again Edo Tensei isn't automatic, and both Jiraiya and Tsunade probably know the seals for it by now. I often wonder if they'd be able to just stop the coffins before he's able to summon them. I guess it depends on how far away he is before he tries to summon them though.

Orochimaru also doesn't have ET prepared in most battles, normally he would lose to Tsunade imo.​​


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## Icegaze (Jun 21, 2015)

@Godamine 
orochimaru didn't regenerate from tsunade punch. he simply got up after she punched him 

also resummoning katsuyu takes more chakra, so no it makes more sense for katsuyu to divide itself to avoid YN than tsunade using her chakra to summon it out of there

the last part of ur post is confusing. stop the coffin's? that was recton by part 2. hiruzen didn't stop any coffin at all. minato simply couldn't be summoned 

also no proof that either would know the seals to stop the coffin's if we are to stick to what was implied in part 1 and clearly proven false by part 2


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## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I was just pointing out that they abided by that relationship already. At the point of the Sannin showdown they were _mutually_ handicapped, but _each_ of them being alleviated of their handicaps should leave them in a deadlock, I would suspect.
> 
> Jiraiya when he's not under the influence = Tsunade when she's not rusty = Orochimaru when he's not suffering from necrosis in his arms. The Sannin showdown involving Drugged Jiraiya, Rusty Tsunade, and Armless Orochimaru was a glimpse of that.
> 
> Obviously I agree that a Jiraiya that isn't drugged would be stronger than still-handicapped versions of Tsunade and Orochimaru. If he weren't, he'd be weaker.


That's fine, but what you asked me was where you asserted that Jiraiya with SM wasn't comfortably above Oro and Tsunade at that particular point, ailments not withstanding. 

Me: *"The one thing I would dispute is your assertion that Jiraiya isn't comfortably above Oro and Tsunade at that point of the Sannin Showdown via his Sage-Mode."*

You: *"Where did I say that?"*

And again here you seem to be suggesting the same thing, unless perhaps you were unsure of whether their ailments where being taken into consideration; in which case I should have made that clear.



> Manda is faster, and jumps are predictable. Gamabunta cannot change directions in mid-air- if Gamabunta jumps in the air Manda can run over to where he'd land and wait for him to come down.


If Manda does that he's opening himself wide open to having a gigantic sword put through him at a high velocity or being hit with a Gamayu Endan. This also assumes that Jiraiya won't summon more frogs if he feels that Manda is a significant threat to his entering SM.



> Navigating the area wasn't the problem. Jiraiya was having difficulty because Gamaken couldn't give him a smoother ride than he did while the transformation requires that he stay still. Gamabunta leaping sky-high and then crash-landing is also most likely not going to be a smooth ride, and it certainly won't be with Manda harassing him.


That's what I trying to get at; because of it being a condensed area where it's routes where unfamiliar to Jiraiya he basically had to have Gamaken create space with Pain's summons in anyway necessary, which means moving around uncoordinated. Otherwise there might have been certain openings and whatnot that they could have taken advantage of.



> The elder toads should have retained that knowledge when they fought Pain alongside Naruto, yet they waited until fairly late in the game to attempt Gamarinshō, so I don't expect them to try it early IC.


Not a great rebuttal I know but I would chalk that up to plot. If the Elder Toads had, say, hid inside Gamabunta's mouth and prepped Gamarinsho from the outset Pain could potentially have been defeated rather easily. So again, knowing how hard to kill and evasive Oro is, I would suspect that it wouldn't take Jiraiya long to consider as an early resort a technique that literally immobilizes the opposition, assuming they're within hearing distance.



> Jiraiya would be in there with him at first though, and falling into a lake of acid would snap Orochimaru out of the Genjutsu too because acid is painful.


Jiraiya can leave and let Oro stay there, can he not? Especially considering that immediately entering Oro will still be feeling the effects of Gamarinsho and will have to feel pain from the acid and collect his wits which should afford Jiraiya plenty of time to exit stage left leaving Oro to rot.



> Suffocating is also painful, and I'm not sure Yomi Numa is actually strong enough to hold Yamata. It held down that giant brown snake effectively enough, but _Manda_ should be much stronger than that one and Yamata is stronger than Manda. I mean it's possible that the swamp was way more than strong enough to immobilize that brown snake, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case, so I tend to just sit it at around that level and assume that entities significantly stronger than that can most likely muscle their way out of it.


Yamata may be stronger, but he also faces the disadvantage in this particular case of being much heavier and less slippery as well. I'd say that more than cancels out any stregnth advantage it may possess over the generic brown snake. 



> The databook says Yomi Numa scales in size, not strength.


Size includes depth as well. Being a bigger less agile entity will be a disadvantage for Oro's Yamata here.



> If you apply that reasoning Orochimaru shouldn't have had the DNA on him either.


That was strange but the fact of the matter is that we don't know where he had the DNA. I assume he hadn't kept it in his pockets or anything like that so it's possible that it was apart of him or some shit like that. 

Regardless, I still don't see how it compares. The prepping or ET is merely having live sacrifices ready and the DNA of whoever may be summoned. It's not some rigorous process that he has to go through, outside of, possibly, collecting the specific DNA. 



> The fight with Hiruzen isn't a normal circumstance and I wouldn't use it as an example of one. Normal circumstance, I think, is a random or abrupt encounter. Orochimaru planned to fight Hiruzen well ahead of time and the databook says "To hurt his teacher, he readies the cruelest stage by bringing back the souls of the dead." implying Orochimaru only prepared it in order to screw with Hiruzen emotionally. It isn't like he always had it ready and then just decided to summon it once he fought Hiruzen or he wouldn't have been able to use people who participated in the Chūnin Exams as sacrifices.


The databook statement you provide would more so signal to me it was the prepping of Hashirama's and Tobirmama's ET specifically that would "hurt" Hiruzen, as I doubt Hiruzen would have been hurt seeing instead, say, some random fodder as opposed to his former mentors and friends.

And I would suspect that had Oro not lost use of his arms, and thus his jutsu, that he would have after his fight with Hiruzen gone and prepped more bodies. It just seems that logical to me given how potent of a technique it is. 



> You would really consider Edo Tensei more like you would Konan's ability to transmute 600 billion explosive tags to match the environment than you would any average ninja prepping kunai. Konan possesses that ability but because she doesn't have it ready most of the time it's not usually considered when evaluating her power. Orochimaru normally does not have Edo Tensei ready.


I'm sorry, but these aren't nearly the same thing. In Konan's case she had to amass a staggering amount of paper bombs and was relegated to a location such at the one she choose that could support her technique. For Oro, literally all he has to do is gather bodies (easy enough, seeing as he already possess holding cells full of them) and have the appropriate DNA ready. 



> If he did, Kishi wouldn't have said Yamata no Jutsu was Orochimaru's greatest and most powerful technique.


At that point it may very well have been, seeing this was when he was only capable of his weaker ET and before he gained the ability to summon the Edo-Hokage. However, after he received this power-up the Edo-Hokage ET very clearly become his most powerful technique.



> Also, when you say "as of the end of PT II at least; who knows about the Gaiden" what do you mean? Did Orochimaru forget how to use Edo Tensei or do ninja not prep kunai when they go out anymore? Because at the end of PTII Edo Tensei was released. Unless you're starting to agree that it's not like standard equipment for him I don't see what difference there is between Part 2 and the Gaiden.


I just through that in there as something of an extra thought. I wouldn't argue that Oro's lost his advanced ET, but it's been years since the end of PTII that possibly he could have? Why? I don't know. Just thinking out loud here.



> I pointed it out because I thought your main point was that even if they are equal from a story-telling perspective "in the BD" they aren't. _In the BD_, though, Orochimaru does not normally have Edo Tensei prepared, so we don't need to concern ourselves with a power up to match Edo Tensei.
> 
> He really doesn't normally have it prepared in the story either, though.


Correct, that is my point. 

I disagree though that when Oro is placed in a versus thread unrestricted that he isn't usually considered to have ET ready. I've seen few posters do this, although admittedly threads pitting Oro against someone completely unrestricted don't come up very often so it's hard to tell with certainty.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> *orochimaru with edo tensei isn't the most broken I don't get why people would think with it he is above jiriaya *
> 
> first off the level of his ET aren't much to SM jiraiya regardless of who he summons. jiraiya can also get rid of most of oro ET in 1 jutsu so it really isn't that big a deal
> 
> ...


Wow, the stuff in bold is the biggest bs I've read on the forums in a real long while.

Orochimaru w/ET Hokages (e.g. Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen and Minato)  would solo pretty much any singular shinobi barring Kaguya, Juubidara, Vote 2 Sasuke and DMS Kakashi.


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Wow, the stuff in bold is the biggest bs I've read on the forums in a real long while.
> 
> Orochimaru w/ET Hokages (e.g. Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen and Minato)  would solo pretty much any singular shinobi barring Kaguya, Juubidara, Vote 2 Sasuke and DMS Kakashi.





Oro with zetsu body u mean. who on earth is talking about that version of orochimaru? I mean the orochimaru we know of before the zetsu body BS which obviously improved the precision of his ET. am sure you know that, maybe you dont

 awww cute I think u read the manga but am not sure

nice try though



@stickastick YN stopping yamata is dam near irrelevant. oro barfs himself out of YN and is free to transform again. just saying


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## Puppetry (Jun 22, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> He really doesn't normally have it prepared in the story either, though.



But that's just it - Edo Tensei only needs to be prepared once (in particular, Kabuto summoned Deidara multiple times, seemingly with no additional sacrifices), and then can be summoned at the user's convenience. Sasori's hitokugutsu are more analogous to Edo Tensei than Paper Ocean is, and there's no debate about those as a legitimate aspect of his power.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Oro with zetsu body u mean. who on earth is talking about that version of orochimaru? I mean the orochimaru we know of before the zetsu body BS which obviously improved the precision of his ET. am sure you know that, maybe you dont
> 
> awww cute I think u read the manga but am not sure
> 
> ...






			
				Icegaze said:
			
		

> orochimaru *with edo tensei* isn't the most broken I don't get why people would think with it he is above jiriaya


You are the one that said it.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Godamine
> orochimaru didn't regenerate from tsunade punch. he simply got up after she punched him



I'd say he would've had to regenerate to get back up from her punch, which is why he was so exhausted afterwards.



> also resummoning katsuyu takes more chakra, so no it makes more sense for katsuyu to divide itself to avoid YN than tsunade using her chakra to summon it out of there



Dividing would never work, if she divides many of her pieces will still fall into the mud, and those that don't will still reform into a significantly smaller body. Summoning uses very little chakra for someone like Tsunade, and is more effective.



> the last part of ur post is confusing. stop the coffin's? that was recton by part 2. hiruzen didn't stop any coffin at all. minato simply couldn't be summoned



Hiruzen threw shuriken at that coffin, even if Orochimaru could have summoned Minato, an attack of that level wouldn't have stopped it. Jiraiya has the ability to sink the coffins back into the earth with Yomi Numa and prevent it from opening, and Tsunade might be able to stomp them back down again with a strike (if she was close enough). 



> also no proof that either would know the seals to stop the coffin's if we are to stick to what was implied in part 1 and clearly proven false by part 2



Thats true, I thought it might have been possible that they know the seals, though, since ANBU guards had witnessed the technique being used, as did multiple shinobi of the alliance. I'd guess that higher ups like Tsunade and Jiraiya would get briefed on this sort of information. I'm just speculating though.​​


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> You are the one that said it.



 you cant read

I AM TALKING ABOUT OROCHIMARU BEFORE HE GOT ZETSU BODY WHICH MADE HIS TENSEI MORE PRECISE....


wow its like you live for the troll


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'd say he would've had to regenerate to get back up from her punch, which is why he was so exhausted afterwards.​




you would like to think so. but that has more to do with bias than anything. he was exhausted before the fight. remember his heavy breathing?

no signs of regen. he simply got up  cuz she cant kill him if he wanted her to 



> Dividing would never work, if she divides many of her pieces will still fall into the mud, and those that don't will still reform into a significantly smaller body. Summoning uses very little chakra for someone like Tsunade, and is more effective.



so resummonign 5% of katsuyu wont use a decent amount of tsunade chakra? really?

erm you do know slugs are slimy right, so things don't think to them very well. only the bit caught in the mud will stay there. everything above can simply slide off and be fine. like I don't get why anyone with a summon which can divide to get out of a situation will resummons it 



> Hiruzen threw shuriken at that coffin, even if Orochimaru could have summoned Minato, an attack of that level wouldn't have stopped it. Jiraiya has the ability to sink the coffins back into the earth with Yomi Numa and prevent it from opening, and Tsunade might be able to stomp them back down again with a strike (if she was close enough).



he couldn't have. that's my point. oro couldn't summon minato 

yh u know the coffins can be summoned anywhere right. kabuto summoned one in the air last I checked. its not like an earth tech is going to stop a summoning jutsu

yh tsunade punching  a coffin to stop it is just funny. you can do better. a lot better. 



> Thats true, I thought it might have been possible that they know the seals, though, since ANBU guards had witnessed the technique being used, as did multiple shinobi of the alliance. I'd guess that higher ups like Tsunade and Jiraiya would get briefed on this sort of information. I'm just speculating though.


​
yes u are. hirzuen seals did nothing to the coffins 

kishi retcon that casually

@puppetry great post btw. ET prepped once can be resummoned all the time so long as its not sealed.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> you cant read
> 
> I AM TALKING ABOUT OROCHIMARU BEFORE HE GOT ZETSU BODY WHICH MADE HIS TENSEI MORE PRECISE....
> 
> ...



You never specified if he had Zetsu's body. It's an obvious distinction that needs to be made, otherwise we wouldn't be here now would we. Don't get mad with me because I call you out on your crap, just think before you post.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

You never specified which version of Orochimaru which can easily cause confusion as both have Edo Tensei.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> you would like to think so. but that has more to do with bias than anything. he was exhausted before the fight. remember his heavy breathing?
> 
> no signs of regen. he simply got up  cuz she cant kill him if he wanted her to



He wasn't _that_ exhausted though. After he gets hit by Tsunade he is sweating like a turkey at Christmas, and then retreats from the battlefield. Kabuto is even worried for his health, and he's a medical ninja who knows of Orochimaru's capabilities. 

And white snake regeneration never shows any obvious signs of taking effect unless you've lost a limb or something. Remember when Sasuke was wounded by Deidara's C0? He notes that his white snake regeneration helped him to recover more quickly, but we never saw any obvious signs of that happening on panel.





> so resummonign 5% of katsuyu wont use a decent amount of tsunade chakra? really?



No, it won't. Tsunade's chakra reserves are massive, so much so that she summoned a boss Katsuyu while she was chopped in half and had plenty of chakra to spare. Granted that might not have been 5%, but it was at least a 2.5% size, and she hadn't even released her Byakugou at that point either. Byakugou possesses ridiculous amounts of chakra after just a few weeks of storage, with two and half to three years worth of storage, Tsunade has bijuu+++ levels.



> erm you do know slugs are slimy right, so things don't think to them very well. only the bit caught in the mud will stay there. everything above can simply slide off and be fine. like I don't get why anyone with a summon which can divide to get out of a situation will resummons it



Slime won't stop them from sinking into the mud. And unless the divisions can fly or jump large distances they can't escape the perimeter of Jiraiya's bog. And as I said, even if they could, they will reform into a much smaller body, and become less effective. 



> yh u know the coffins can be summoned anywhere right. kabuto summoned one in the air last I checked. its not like an earth tech is going to stop a summoning jutsu



That's true. I forgot about that. Still, if the coffin was wedged underground the person inside of it would surely be unable to get out?



> yh tsunade punching  a coffin to stop it is just funny. you can do better. a lot better.



I'm glad Tsunade's extraordinary power amuses you so much. ​​


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## LostSelf (Jun 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> well oil sticking to her body which is what am sure you mean is all nice and dandy but 2.5 years worth of chakra will keep healing in any case and skin burn isn't going to slow her down



It will. Byakugo lasted it's time (not slow, but not instant either) to heal a stab wound. Overheated Oil with sage chakra will certainly make her suffer. Now we add that Senjutsu can be used quite a long time and frog song... And she has little chances against Jiraiya.



> however all she need do is punch jiriaya once and he dies casually



She won't.



> YN doesn't counter katsuyu at all. it simply divides its top bits and reforms. 5% katsuyu is massive so jiriaya will need to keep using YN to render katsuyu into a little version of itself



Drugged Jiraiya could create one as large as a snake. Sage Jiraiya would do it way better. KAtsuyu division goes down, from the head to the floor. Each clone will only be dividing right to the swamp. 



> she is an awful match to orochimaru. she cant kill him with a punch if oro begged her to
> 
> she also has zero answer to edo tensei. that's more likely to exhaust her than jiraiya lol oil
> 
> she can keep fighting the tensei for years and they will keep coming at her



None of them has counters to Oro's Edo Tensei. Minato alone is capable of soloing with Bijuu Mode. Considering Oro can control him. Without ET, Oro has less jutsus to kill her than Jiraiya, cannot counter the slug, doesn't have genjutsu to put her out and cut her in pieces like Shima and Fukusaku can do, etc. He already failed with Kusanagi.


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

I think it's safe to say that he is certainly in the sannin ballpark. He probably beats Tsunade at her peak without Katsuya but would go 50/50 even with her. That's enough to consider him Sannin level. Plus the parallels with them and the fact Oro needed to try and ambush him 2v1 in a surprise attavk


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## Hazuki (Feb 13, 2016)

Thunder said:


> Neither does "kage level" yet we still use the term a lot around here. Both are titles, yes, but those titles are indicative of strength. The Sannin earned their name by surviving against one of the strongest shinobi of their era, and the Sannin only _continued to improve_ after that.
> .



WRONG
kage level exist 
in part 1 ambu said that hiruzen/orochimaru fight was hokage level  ( mean kage level ) 

kage is a level beyond jounin  but sannin is not a level , it is just 3 ninja who were praised by danzou and who are now  hokage level 
but even among hokage  they aren't equal at all

jiraiya alone in part 1 was confident to tell to tsunade that he will kill her if she betray konoha 

i don't understand how people in 2016 don't understand that sannin is just a famous praised for 3 ninja 
it's like " kakashi no sharingan "


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 13, 2016)

I quickly browsed through the debates here. All good all valid. What I am going to say is this:

Is Sasori Sannin level? He could be below,  in line or even above. Orochimaru didn't leave Kabuto at home when he came to confront Sasori did he? And without antidote and prep time what can Tsunade do. And this is coming from someone who would never underrate a Sannin.

What people need to realise is Sasori's opponents were given every ppssible advantage you can have a in a fight. 
PIS/CIS: Sasori allowed himself to be killed even after all the disadvantages he was plagued with. The fact he even did well after all the other disadvantages (which I'll mention below) is amazing. 
Prep Time: Without prep there would have been no antidote.
Arsenal Restriction: Orochimaru suffered from this a lot. Sasori has 298 Puppets in his collection. How many did we see on panel? 103 if we include Sasori's body and 102 if we don't.  That's not even half. Or we can all this sidelining. Look at the arsenal Hiruzen and Hanzo could have had. Yet what did we see.
Anti-Fighting Style: There are only two things you can fight fire with.  You can fight fire with fire or you can fight it with water. Sasori is fire and Chiyo fought fire with fire by using puppets to counter is. If another guy had PS and a Bijuu they could fight VOTE Madara.  Chiyo even used his own puppets (Hiruko's tail)  against him. Or you can fight fire with water. Hashirama antis Madara as an example. Sakura is a medical ninja so is trained in Dodging attacks and was made to counter poisons. 
Plot: Sakura has to be alive until chapter 700. Sasori does not. So he lost.

If Sasori fought someone who didn't have those advantages he could clearly be the victor.  He could move up an entire tier just because of all those disadvantages he had.

I think he is the same level as the Sannin ie he can beat people similar to them but they just are bad match ups gor him. Jiraiya is a fast distance fighter. Orochinaru is immune to poison and so is Tsunade due to Byakugou cell division.

I'm not trying to start a shit storm here but Sasori can even beat Itachi. Or he has a higher chance of doing this than any of the Sannin do. I'll explain. 


Shurikenjutsu - EASILY counters by Senbon, Hiruko Shell, Iron sand etc

Katon: Blocked by good defences, dodged or countered by Water Jets

Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi: Sasori is immune to all genjutsu. He has no eyes no brain and no central nervous system.The same Genjutsu that trolled Oro.

Amaterasu - if Hiruko gets caught he jumps out and if he gets caught after that he switchws to another puppet. The same Amaterasu Jiraiya would have difficulty with.

Susanoo - if Sasori gets stabbed by Totsuka he can switch to another puppet and just keep doing this for a hundred puppets and all his other ones while he outlasts Itaxhi who would be almost blind by this time and once Susano'o is down Sasori kills him. The same Totsuka Tsunade can't dodge. 

IMO Sasori is Sannin level


All his puppets were human puppets. We don't know what abilities they had. Some of them must have had Kekkei Genkai. The anime showed two of the puppets with Sharingan lol. The possibilities are endless.​​


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## copydog123 (Feb 13, 2016)

Given that he off-paneled the strongest kazekage (without kazekage puppet of course) and was part of akatsuki and Oro's partner leads me to believe that he was comfortably around sannin level (or kages which the sannins were qualified for as well)

The only thing about sasori that I do not understand is how he deals with massive area of attacks. Because the puppets are pretty fragile (say compared to one hit from gamabunta or manda). The only hope is iron sand, but I don't know how long can he continue using that.


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## Kurak (Feb 13, 2016)

Nope. Sasori was so lame that he was the 1 guy from Akatsuki to die.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2016)

I don't believe he fought the 3rd Kazekage, they both disappeared at the same time or something. Sasori probably went up to him and slipped him a roofie and then proceeded to Texas Chainsaw Massacre him afterwards.


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## Dr. White (Feb 13, 2016)

Yes, obviously. He was hailed as a genius, and even made the puppets the next village puppet genius, Kakuro would use for his black puppet style. Then he he gave the 3rd KazeKage that Oro-Rasa treatment, and was able to use human puppet with chakra signature. We know there was a skirmish ebcause Sasori claimed getting the 3rd was hard. Then he took it a step further and gave himself essential immortality by trapping his soul into a puppet of his former self.

He on par hype wise (sannin were Kage level Jonin), and has accomplishments similar to both Tsunade and Orochimaru with his puppeteer innovation and Infamous acts against strong opponents like the 3rd Kaze, and original owner of Hiruko and using them for his own power.


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## Saru (Feb 13, 2016)

I think he's overall weaker than all of the Sannin, but he's definitely around their level is able to contend with each of them.

People just lack the inspiration to see the deadly potential in his art.


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## Dr. White (Feb 13, 2016)

I wouldn't say he's definitively weaker than any of them. he essentially has 3 forms. HIruko which is like Poison Asura Mode, 3rd Kaze which is one of the best KKG in the business which is also poisoned, and then True Puppet Mode with 100 Puppets. Chances of guantling that with receiving a scratch is pretty hard on top of figuring out his core is his consciousness. Without Knowledge he's probably one of the most dangerous people to fight.


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## Veracity (Feb 13, 2016)

He's just below the Sannin level. More around War Arc Gaara's level.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 13, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I wouldn't say he's definitively weaker than any of them. he essentially has 3 forms. HIruko which is like Poison Asura Mode, 3rd Kaze which is one of the best KKG in the business which is also poisoned, and then True Puppet Mode with 100 Puppets. Chances of guantling that with receiving a scratch is pretty hard on top of figuring out his core is his consciousness. Without Knowledge he's probably one of the most dangerous people to fight.



I agree. But like the other guy said people lack the inspiration to see his potential while they just inflate their favourite characters instead.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2016)

The only thing is under neutral conditions most people would have knowledge on Sasori and anyone that can use water would use to wash away the poisons. That's the only thing I have against him reaching Jiraiya or Orochimaru, those two are far out of his range. Tsunade is a tank, she'd just donkey punch him. He's too shallow and not enough substance if the only thing he relies on is Iron Sand to win. It's a small crux with a really bad weakness (e.g. destroy Hiruko and you destroy it, he's practically useless after that).


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## Bonly (Feb 13, 2016)

Nah I wouldn't say he's on the Sannin's level but below it by a little bit but he's close to it so yeah


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## Alita (Feb 13, 2016)

No. I personally consider him one of the weaker akatsuki.


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## Skaddix (Feb 13, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> The only thing is under neutral conditions most people would have knowledge on Sasori and anyone that can use water would use to wash away the poisons. That's the only thing I have against him reaching Jiraiya or Orochimaru, those two are far out of his range. Tsunade is a tank, she'd just donkey punch him. He's too shallow and not enough substance if the only thing he relies on is Iron Sand to win. It's a small crux with a really bad weakness (e.g. destroy Hiruko and you destroy it, he's practically useless after that).



Really I think he do best against J-man as long as his puppets are fairly fire resistant. I could see him nicking Jiraiya at least once in a fight and that is good enough for a win. Tsunade and Orochimaru have absurd healing abilities.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 14, 2016)

Alita54 said:


> No. I personally consider him one of the weaker akatsuki.



Hes stronger than Deidara, Konan, Kakuzu, Zetsu, Hidan and Tobi (Goofy). Kisame is in line with him. Only Tobi (Obito) Itachi and Pain are stronger. Give me proof if I'm wrong.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 14, 2016)

Sasori rapes the Sannin with their summons restricted. He's comparable to them as they are.

But...technically, the 3rd Kazekage and all his hundred puppets are summons, so...restricting them for both sides hurts Sasori tremendously here.


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## Icegaze (Feb 14, 2016)

Sanin level is a massively ambiguous statement 

But no he isn't anywhere close 

Unless u restrict Jiriaya and orochimaru who have much better showings than sasori 

Even tsunade does


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## baski (Feb 16, 2016)

I think he's definitely comparable to them. Sasori was just unfortunate enough to be selected as the akatsuki member who would be used to highlight Sakura's growth as a kunoichi. During their battle, he had literally everything going against him in Chiyo knowing everything about him, Sakura prepping with lots of antidotes, his parents' puppet bodies among other things. Heck he even allowed himself to get killed. He was made to job so that Sakura could be hyped. His potential though is undeniable. He does have comparable feats to them and i won't go into detail on how impressive or not they are, but killing the strongest kazekage and defeating a country are big deals. I wouldn't say he could beat any of them for sure but his abilities are in their ballpark.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 16, 2016)

Its weird cos he is "Sannin level" (ie higher end of Mid Kage tier to lower end of High Kage tier) but he can't beat any of the Sannin. but he has a higher chance of beating, say Itachi, than Oro and Tsuna do.

But Orochimaru and Jiraiya is too much for him. Tsunade can just copy Sakura and plus Byakugo can cure poisons (flush out infected cells while regenerating new ones) and Katsuyu more than makes up for the absence of Chiyo.

So Sasori is weaker than Tsunade, weaker than Itachi though he has a good shot against him. I'd say he is Kisame level so just below Sannin level, however, considering the fact
*
 Sakura is a medic trained to anti Sasori's fighting style
 Chiyo is a puppeteer who used her puppets to intercept Sasori's
Chiyo even used Hiruko's tail against him
They were puppets of Sasori's parents
Sakura had prep so got antidotes
Chiyo had knowledge on Hiruko
 He had 298 puppets but only used 102 (103 if you count his own body) of them
 These puppets could have had their own interesting bloodlines and maybe elemental powers
 He only had one showing in the whole manga
 Even after all that, Sasori allowed himself to be killed
 Orochimaru felt he had to take Kabuto with him if he were to confront him at Tenchi Bridge to attempt an assassination on him
* ..... I think I will just give him the benefit of the doubt and say he can be Orochimaru's equal (since he was portrayed that way) since he suffered so many f*cking disadvantages (no other fight in anime/manga history has been as one sided/rigged as the Sasori VS SakuChiyo fight) in the one showing he got in the manga.

Sasori may have looked bad, but imagine a fight where he doesn't have two opponents, one of which has an antidote to his poison and knows all about it, and is trained to anti his flightily style and has the tolls to break Hiruko's shell, and the other opponent was his grandmother who used the same fighting style as him, as well as emotional/psychological warfare against him, causing him to give an opening at the end.

So what i mean is against an opponent who is not two people, has no knowledge, no antidote, no blood relation to Sasori, no puppets like his own etc, Sasori could win easily.


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## DavyChan (Feb 16, 2016)

Sasori is high Jonin level. Stop pretending like Sakura and Chiyo didn't wreck him.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 16, 2016)

DavyChan said:


> Sasori is high Jonin level. Stop pretending like Sakura and Chiyo didn't wreck him.




Read the list in my previous post please and educate yourself.


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