# Former Gokage vs Five Biju



## Kyu (Feb 28, 2015)

*Location:* 571's Biju Battlefield

*Distance:* 20m

*Mindset:* To Kill

*Knowledge:* Full for kage

*Restrictions:* None

____


*Lava versus Flames*
*1.)*Mei vs Matatabi (Two tails)


**Insert not-so witty title here**
*2.)*Gaara vs Kokuo (Five Tails)


*Hot Heads*
*3.)*Ei vs Son Goku (Four Tails)


*Sluggout*
*4.)*Tsunade vs Saiken (Six Tails)


*Sky Battle*
*5.)*Onoki vs Chomei (Seven Tails)



*5 on 5*
*5.5)*The Gokage vs The 5 Beasts


Can the nation's former(bar Gaara) leaders triumph over the chakra monsters?


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2015)

I think Bijudama may kill the opposing Kage in every scenario.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 28, 2015)

> *Lava versus Flames*
> *1.)*Mei vs Matatabi (Two tails)


With intent to kill and this close distance mei just might get that cat claw kakuzu and madara got and die. If she does manage to get away from and counterattack she would get slammed by the next one. Matatabi can withstand mei's ninjutsu hitting her to get a blow in. Even KCM naruto had to resort to chakra arms to avoid getting captured by son goku and mei is slower than even KCM naruto non flash shunshin speed. Then you got the databook hyping matatabi's flexible muscles i'm sure it's quicker than son goku.




> **Insert not-so witty title here**
> *2.)*Gaara vs Kokuo (Five Tails)


Without bijuudama's gaara would have a small chance at sealing it...maybe. But with bijuudama's unrestricted it would just power through his defense whether he is on the sky or land.




> *Hot Heads*
> *3.)*Ei vs Son Goku (Four Tails)


Fast as he may be he cannot outrun the bijuudama's explosion's AoE and he can't harm him enough with his physical blows to put him down. I mean 2 bijuu who are lesser than him by tail count and 3 others who are not really above him if at all were about to blow up bijuudama's right in front of their faces after all. I would count it's volcano's into this but they don't have any real feats besides bothering the hachibi a little. Then again that version was only from a V2 jinchuriki so...




> *Sluggout*
> *4.)*Tsunade vs Saiken (Six Tails)


She does not have a way to defeat saiken or protect herself from it's bijuudama's. Even without bijuudama's she hits the thing it would just drag her into it's body like it did the kyuubi's fist during the war and melt her. It's also sticky enough to hold down hashi SM empowered madara so she just won't break out of it. 




> *Sky Battle*
> *5.)*Onoki vs Chomei (Seven Tails)


Onoki gets blown up by bijuudama. The bijuudama don't even need to be charged to take him out. 





> *5 on 5*
> *5.5)*The Gokage vs The 5 Beasts


Well the beast have a stronger combination attack in the form of a collective bijuudama so i would be inclined to go with them. Even shooting a volley of bijuudama's to the others side would win it for them. The kages versatility don't do them much good against this kinda sheer firepower i mean the kages strongest offense are like super jinton and...onoki+raikage weighted blow combination? Gaara's sealing is their only "hax"(and things like joki boy and madara's V3 susanoo has shown to break out of it even with shukaku empowerment for the former). I don't think that's enough.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 28, 2015)

Tailed Beasts destroy them in every scenario. The five-on-five is ridiculously unbalanced; the monsters collectively charge a bomb the size of the CN Tower and obliterate the Kage with an explosion 20 km wide.

A Tailed Beast was established time and time again to be far above the cut of an average Kage-level shinobi; i.e., Madara comparing the power of his Perfect Susanoo to one, the Wood Golem stated to be capable of "doing battle with a Tailed Beast", etc. Their resilience, strength, and overall overwhelming power far exceed Kage to such an extent that speed, intelligence, experience - all these ancillary combat traits go out the window as determinants of the victor.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

No restriction on Bijuudamas?

 I don't even need to look at all of the scenarios to know this is a huge stomp. The Gokage were helpless against a simple PS Shockwave, so avoiding Bijuudamas that destroy mountains is out of the question. There's no hope for them, especially when Bijuudamas aren't restricted.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

GOnly onoki Stands a 2% chance of winning his match 

Remember he can weigh chomei down then Jinton it. Howveer chomei can blind him the Bd volley him
Perhaps Ei as well 
The rest loose 

Gaara can't crush 5th tail . Boil release would make it too strong 

It will just ram through


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## Alex Payne (Mar 1, 2015)

My face when Deidara casually off-panels Sanbi while Gokage can't beat other bijus 1-on-1


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 1, 2015)

Everyone is saying Bijuu dama GG

No tailed beast opens with that. Ever. 

Gokage wins
Mist serves good cover
Gaara crushes legs. 
If the 3rd stalemate 8 tails, Ay should be able to win

Ohnoki Jinton the mosquito
Tsunade breaks it's head off


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

@alex and kazekage
kishi utterly rectonned a bijuu mindset during the war arc 

he used to call them rampaging beast who couldnt think, and just randomly fired off their power 

against madara they all seemed to be able to speak and actually come up with a plan of attack. 

the bijuu will open with BD if they feel liek it and murder the kages no difficulty. gaara cant crush kokou legs when he will be using boil release to overpower it 

Mei is killed by mistake. 

also note deidara has faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more firepower than any of the gokage bar onoki. lets not compare deidara arsenal to these chumps


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## FlamingRain (Mar 1, 2015)

The Ten Tails was still a rampaging beast randomly firing off its power until Obito became the Jinchūriki.

Maybe it just takes a while for the Tailed Beasts to regress without a host.

And no, that _C1_ bomb did not pack far more firepower than what the Five Kages can each dish out.



Rocky said:


> I think Bijudama may kill the opposing Kage in every scenario.



Ohnoki could make Chomei's disappear before it detonates if he can make a Jinton cube large enough to encompass it.

Ay and Tsunade may be able to bat Goku and Saiken's away since Kishi decided to start treating them like water balloons. It makes no less sense than Tsunade punching fire dragons, really.

Gaara and Mei could tilt Kokuo and Matatabi's heads upwards before they fire it?


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @alex and kazekage
> kishi utterly rectonned a bijuu mindset during the war arc
> 
> he used to call them rampaging beast who couldnt think, and just randomly fired off their power
> ...



Umm no he doesn't

Boil Release > Bombs
Ay can chop off a neck. 

All you people say is Bijuu dama GG this isn't a bloodiest mindset either. 

Tsunade packs a greater punch than C2. 
Wasn't the Sanbi killed by C1

You aren't giving the Gokage much credit. 

Imagine lava destroying Matabi. Mei has high level suitons and can melt some skin.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

Huge stomp in Tailed Beasts favor.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Umm no he doesn't
> 
> Boil Release > Bombs
> Ay can chop off a neck.
> ...



lol ypi clown boil release greater than what bombs?? mind showing me feats of this. deidara c1 titled a turlte island you show me what Mei weak ass acid has done that deidara could not do 

feats of Ay chopping off a neck please. he couldnt even break through rib cage susanoo. are you implying the bijuu are less durable than that 

lol tsunade wishes she packed a greater punch than C2. sadly she doesnt. 

sanbi wasnt killed by C1. obito used genjutsu on it 

The gokage simply arent on the level to contend with bijuu. they couldnt even beat susanoo clones. seriously they get murked no difficulty 

only onoki stands a chance and even then nothing stops chomei from using BD volley which onoki cant survive. 

Mei cannot fight any bijuu at all, even if the bijuu wanted her to win


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## FlamingRain (Mar 1, 2015)

The databook specifically says that Deidara knocked Isobu out with that bomb.

There was no Genjutsu involved.


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

ok deidara knocked it out. i dont see how that means any of them bar onoki can do that

unless you think any of them have the ability to flip over a turtle island 

sooner or later in all these match ups it will end with BD. no kage bar onoki stands a chance of not laughbly dying against it. maybe tsunade as well

the likes of Mei even if there was an army of Mei will still die against 1 BD


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

Here's the problem, the way the TB were portrayed in the manga is contradictory. On one hand the abilities and intelligence they displayed in the War-Arc would enable them to defeat all the Gokage, w/ the possible exception of Onoki due to Jinton, however on the flip side of this prior to the war arc the Bijuu's Jinchuuriki were being casually off paneled by Akatsuki members, who were very much portrayed as weaker than the Gokage during the War-Arc, and the Jinchuuriki were stated to be stronger than the Bijuu, because they used the Bijuu's power more effectively, due to having greater intelligence. Like with Sanbi where it was literally stated and shown to be dumb brute, but than in the war arc was perfectly rational and intelligent, and same thing with Nibi, who based on what's shown in the War-Arc I have no fucking clue how Kakuzu and Hidan won against it? 

So it's like the Gokage would win rather casually based on how the Bijuu were portrayed the entire manga, sans the war-arc, but would struggle immensely and almost certainly loose, based on how they were portrayed in the war-arc.


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## Kai (Mar 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Like with Sanbi where it was literally stated and shown to be dumb brute, but than in the war arc was perfectly rational and intelligent, and same thing with Nibi, who based on what's shown in the War-Arc I have no fucking clue how Kakuzu and Hidan won against it?


How Sanbi behaved against Deidara is a far cry from its behavior during war. Tobi controlled the bijuus very actions, from transformations to bijuudama. They were far more dangerous as his paths.

I'd venture a guess that it's a rare occurrence for an IC wiling bijuu to use a bijuudama.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The databook specifically says that Deidara knocked Isobu out with that bomb.
> 
> There was no Genjutsu involved.



 Tobi genjutsu'd and then Deidara knocked it off with a bomb.

 Problem Solved.

 Though honestly, since 6th Gate Gai and War Arc Kakashi couldn't handle a Bijuu, it made no sense for Hidan and Base Kakuzu to casually off-panel the 2 Tails, but meh.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 1, 2015)

Weird, eh, Turrin, because the way Gyuki recalls his fight with the Third seems to contradict that.

Honestly, I'd chalk it up to Kishimoto retconning the Tailed Beasts from mindless entities of chakra to sentient beings who often seem smarter than your average shinobi (especially the Two-Tails). The way they coordinated their attacks on Madara, whilst uncontrolled, lends further credence to that.


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## Empathy (Mar 1, 2015)

I'd assume Hidan could've acquired Yugito's blood before her transformation and been able to affect her even as a bijuu, while Kakuzu could've held her off or distracted her. But off-panel stuff is used to excuse a lot of stuff that wouldn't make much sense if it had to be shown (the mist swordsmen surviving against Dai, Tobirama getting killed by the Kinkaku force etc). Old Hiruzen was able to kick the rampaging full Kyuubi out the of the village, so the rule must be doubly true with bijuus. One thing we can assume for sure is that the Nibi was defeated before she ever decided to use a _Bijuudama_, or else Hidan and Kakuzu wouldn't have survived and there would be a large portion of Kumogakure missing (if they did fight in Kumogakure?), unless they were able to make it miss. That means it could take a while for the bijuu to use _Bijuudama_ with the Kages. Most of them don't have the means to outright kill a bijuu through physical methods though, even if it does take the bijuu some time to decide to obliterate them. The Akatsuki pairs just knocked out/incapacitated the jinchuuriki or bijuu before sealing them and lots were well suited for that.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 1, 2015)

Another offered explanation for the Two-Tails' defeat that I've seen as plausible is after having seemingly 'defeated' the Zombie Twins, Yugito reverted to her human form, only to be ambushed by the pair playing possum. It aligns well with the duo's tendency to play dead, and appropriate skill in doing that.


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## Rocky (Mar 1, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Ohnoki could make Chomei's disappear before it detonates if he can make a Jinton cube large enough to encompass it.
> 
> Ay and Tsunade may be able to bat Goku and Saiken's away since Kishi decided to start treating them like water balloons. It makes no less sense than Tsunade punching fire dragons, really.
> 
> Gaara and Mei could tilt Kokuo and Matatabi's heads upwards before they fire it?



Orochimaru had to summon triple Rashoumon to block KN4's puny little bomb. I don't believe this Jutsu is as easily countered as you're making it out to be. 

Neither A or Tsunade are smacking them away without detonation. It's also harder to move a Biju than one thinks, and the only person we saw do this was Kitsuchi with his massive doton Jutsu. It also doesn't seem feasible in the heat of battle, 'cause not even Hashirama seemed to think of throwing off Kurama's aim.

Old Onoki may be able to do what you say, but he's not going to win a nuke-spam fest with a Biju.


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## Empathy (Mar 1, 2015)

I believe we've known the bijuu not be completely mindless since Shukaku appeared in Part I. He had the urge to destroy everything, but that was more isolated to its personality and he was still capable of reasoning things. We've also seen Kurama manipulate Naruto in Part I. They were all shown to be rational within their inner world when talking to Naruto. The Kyuubi, Hachibi, and Ichibi all displayed coherence when talking with Naruto, Bee, Gaara, and Bunpuku (previous Ichibi jinchuuriki) in their minds, yet the Kyuubi seemed to go wild when released from Obito's control and so did the Hachibi when the Sandaime Raikage would have to fight it. I agree with FlamingRain in that it likely just takes them a while to settle down and most probably harbor contempt for humanity in the first place, making it seem like mindless rampaging.


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

^ Shukaku showed and Kyuubi showed sentience in Part I because the Bijuu have been retcon'd three times in the series. Originally Shukaku was the spirit of a sand priest and kurama was probably also suppose to be some kind of spirit, than the Bijuu were made out to be mindless Kaiju, and than they became pieces of the Juubi/Kaguya.

And each retcon made the Bijuu stronger. Gammabunta could take on Part I incarnations of Bijuu, but than after Kaiju retcon, Bijuu fodderize summons, but can still be handled rather casually by Akatsuki for the most part, and than after third retecon, they are stronger than most Kages.


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## Ghost (Mar 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Gammabunta could take on Part I incarnations of Bijuu,



lol no. Gamabunta himself said he was losing against_ incomplete_ Shukaku.


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## Empathy (Mar 1, 2015)

I consider recton (not to say they don't exist) such a boring excuse for inconsistency. None of that stuff necessarily contradicts each other; it just depends how you view it. They can't be amended into mindlessness after already displaying sentience, for example.



FlamingRain said:


> The databook specifically says that Deidara knocked Isobu out with that bomb.
> 
> There was no Genjutsu involved.



Was that the third or fourth databook?


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## Alucardemi (Mar 1, 2015)

Empathy said:


> the Nibi was defeated before she ever decided to use a _Bijuudama_, or else Hidan and Kakuzu wouldn't have survived and there would be a large portion of Kumogakure missing (if they did fight in Kumogakure?), unless they were able to make it miss.



I wouldn't be so sure.



As we can see, part of a mountain is missing there. That indicates a Bijuudama release. And this was the weakest Akatsuki duo who handled a Bijuu with a Jinchuuriki -- although not a perfect one.

~~
@thread

Its clear that in the start of part 2, Akatsuki members were portrayed as ridiculously strong, since they were easily hunting Bijuus and their hosts. Deidara's target was both a Kage and a host, had the terrain advantage, and still won. He and Tobi casually - with no apparent effort, easily took down the Sanbi. Kakuzu had fought Hashirama -- a Hokage before he was portrayed as God -- and somehow had lived, and Sasori had already defeated the strongest Kazakage personally.

In other words, portrayal fluctuated with the plot. When Akatsuki was the main villain, their power and portrayal was through the roof, easily feeling as stronger than Kage-level shinobi generally. When the War-Arc came, they used as fodder Edos, to service the plot, who had new enemies like Madara, Tobi and Kabuto, people who were subsequently hyped to oblivion, were made to seem like a threat by showing them as superior to current powers. 

So ultimately, it depends on how one would interpret the fluctuations of the plot. And heck, even that is still debatable, as Deidara was keeping-up with Ononoki as an Edo, and their bout was not even concluded -- and Ononoki is the strongest of the Gokage. So I myself think its unfair to portray the Akatsuki as weak because of their earlyhood in the plot.

Personally, I give this to the Bijuu.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 1, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Was that the third or fourth databook?


Third DB in Biju entry. Said DB was after Tobi's reveal to be "Madara" so Kishi didn't have to hide his power.



> Sanbi (三尾, "Three-Tails")
> A giant turtle with a hard shell. Not having a "Jinchuuriki," it lived at the bottom of a lake. It was silenced by Deidara's "Exploding Clay" and captured.



Here is also an interesting bit from Akatsuki entry 





> They invariably go by pairs, with instructions to hunt a quota of one bijuu per individual. For they are powerhouses with unique abilities like Human Puppeteering or Exploding Clay, and the leader is confident that if they organize by pairs, they will lose neither to jinchuuriki nor to bijuu.



And while I agree with retcons and power inflation - fact remains that Akatsuki were generally capable of taking Jins/Bijus down. So if Part 2 had started with Bijus having War Arc power levels then Akatsuki's power would also change. So you can try to think about Akatsuki level to Gokage level power comparison in terms of portrayal.


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## Jad (Mar 1, 2015)

I thought Deidara knocked out the Sanbi due to Tobi using S/T to plant the explosive clay inside of the beast.


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> lol no. Gamabunta himself said he was losing against_ incomplete_ Shukaku.


Shukaku would have beaten Bunta, but Bunta was able to hold his own for awhile.



Empathy said:


> I consider recton (not to say they don't exist) such a boring excuse for inconsistency. None of that stuff necessarily contradicts each other; it just depends how you view it. They can't be amended into mindlessness after already displaying sentience, for example.


But they were, which is what a retecon is.


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## Empathy (Mar 1, 2015)

Gamabunta was used to pin the Kyuubi, by far and away the strongest bijuu (bar Juubi). That doesn't contradict it being able to fight Shukaku. Shukaku being the spirit of a sand priest doesn't contradict Bunpuku being his jinchuuriki. Kurama retained the same level of coherence throughout the series (even when they were suppose to be mindless).


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## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

what do people think about MEi ability to actual damage nibi?

like the way i see it. her acid mist wont put nibi down in one hit. so it jumps back and yes as most have said the end to every match is BD


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## FlamingRain (Mar 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Orochimaru had to summon triple Rashoumon to block KN4's puny little bomb. I don't believe this Jutsu is as easily countered as you're making it out to be.



I made it out to potentially be countered _simply_, not easily.

Triple Rashōmon _is_ a simple counter.



> Neither A or Tsunade are smacking them away without detonation.



_Why_, though?

100% Kurama's bounced off of Hashirama's Quintuple Rashōmon like a rubber ball off of dominos, it didn't explode as soon as it hit. Naruto smacked six of them without causing them to explode. Hashirama caught one like a baseball to tag Final Susano'o out before it exploded. The Ten Tails flicked Bee's right back at him before it finally detonated after slamming into him again.

I don't see why they should explode on contact with Ay or Tsunade when the latter's already managed to slap away a flurry of fire dragons without popping them.



> It's also harder to move a Biju than one thinks, and the only person we saw do this was Kitsuchi with his massive doton Jutsu. It also doesn't seem feasible in the heat of battle, 'cause not even Hashirama seemed to think of throwing off Kurama's aim.



The one he moved is also like a hundred times the size of the others, and it was as much in the heat of battle as Mei and Gaara will be here. Maybe if the Bijū is trying to root itself in order to resist being moved it'll be hard to do, but if they're just kinda standing there and not expecting to suddenly be pushed they wouldn't be any harder to move than a boss summon. I think their heads could be tilted by a surprise dragon flood or sand plume. 

As for Hashirama...doesn't deciding to catch the blast and push it back into the creature that launched it seem _preferable to_ merely throwing off said creature's aim?



> Old Onoki may be able to do what you say, but he's not going to win a nuke-spam fest with a Biju.



Unless he just erases Chōmei's head while he's at it since Jinton doesn't take as long to charge as a Bijūdama.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 1, 2015)

Ay or Tsunade being capable of punching away a Tailed Beast Bomb made me chuckle. The former launched Jūgo away thirty meters and embedded him into a wall; strength of that level isn't going to cut it against a projectile literally a hundred thousand times heavier, not to mention with momentum.

All Tsunade or Ay are going to do is get bowled over by the blast, flattened, and subsequently vaporized.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 1, 2015)

Can the bijuu survive a direct hit from their own bijuu-dama? 

I ask this because of the distance. 20 meters is a meagre space that the Kage can cover at the start of the match, and unless the Bijuu plans on bombing itself it probably won't use a bijuu-dama straight away, if at all.

If that is the case, then it begs the question of just how the Kage would win. In Tsunade and Ei's case, punches are going to do precious little. Even Mei's lava and acid would have its limits against Matatabi, unless she tried to expel it down the bijuu's insides or something. Gaara could try to seal Kokuo I guess but its so physically powerful that I don't see him ever being able to hold the beast down. Onoki has a shot if he uses a large scale jinton off the bat, but if Chomei retaliated with a chakra roar or, better yet, a bijuu blast, then Onoki is snookered.​​


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 1, 2015)

If Gyūki could survive a direct hit after being tossed about and injured multiple times (including the efforts of the Ten-Tails itself), I'm sure a fresh Tailed Beast would remain intact after an indirect one.

And even then, it was implied that Gyūki retreated into Killer Bee as a result of stamina, as opposed to damage.


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## Mercurial (Mar 1, 2015)

The Bijuu stomp the Gokage.


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## Rocky (Mar 1, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't see why they should explode on contact with Ay or Tsunade when the latter's already managed to slap away a flurry of fire dragons without popping them.



Sure, let's assume they'll stay intact upon initial contact. A few questions:

1.) Exactly when will they explode?

2.) Which feats do either Tsunade or A have that suggest they're going to overcome the momentum of one of the most dense & massive jutsu in Bijudama and actually manage to swat it far away enough to not be caught up in the blast?



> The one he moved is also like a hundred times the size of the others, and it was as much in the heat of battle as Mei and Gaara will be here. Maybe if the Bijū is trying to root itself in order to resist being moved it'll be hard to do, but if they're just kinda standing there and not expecting to suddenly be pushed they wouldn't be any harder to move than a boss summon. I think their heads could be tilted by a surprise dragon flood or sand plume.



The Ten Tails was not really focused on Kitsuchi. It focused on the thousands of alliance members collectively, and thus Kitsuchi was able to activate his technique without drawing any attention to himself. It caught Madara & Obito off guard. 

Neither Mei nor Gaara have a technique that can "unexpectedly" move a Biju. Unless they're fighting in a desert, Gaara has no means of budging one, and Mei _literally_ has nothing she can do in any situation. Her only technique that stands a chance at making the 2 Tails flinch is an overt water dragon technique cannoned from her mouth...



> As for Hashirama...doesn't deciding to catch the blast and push it back into the creature that launched it seem _preferable to_ merely throwing off said creature's aim?



I was referring to after Madara started sticking swords in them.



> Unless he just erases Chōmei's head while he's at it since Jinton doesn't take as long to charge as a Bijūdama.



Jinton does indeed take as long as Bijudama, especially if Onoki is going to make one so big. 

Though I'm not sure what's stopping the 7-Tails from just doing that flashbang technique Fu performed and using take down on the 3ft Kage.


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## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I made it out to potentially be countered _simply_, not easily.
> 
> Triple Rashōmon _is_ a simple counter.
> 
> ...



your last point is fulll of lies. 
BD has already been shown more than once to have no charge time. hacbibi and kyuubi fired 5 in a panel. 100% kyuubi fired 12 in a panel
BSM naruto fired one as quick as sasuke can fire his arrows

chomei looks at the flying target and fires. no way would chomei see a blast coming at it and not reply with its own. 

also seriously comparing baby katons to BD??? . tsunade cant smack a BD away. she has utterly nothing suggest she can do anything but die against it


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## FlamingRain (Mar 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sure, let's assume they'll stay intact upon initial contact. A few questions:
> 
> 1.) Exactly when will they explode?
> 
> 2.) Which feats do either Tsunade or A have that suggest they're going to overcome the momentum of one of the most dense & massive jutsu in Bijudama and actually manage to swat it far away enough to not be caught up in the blast?



1.) When they hit something that isn't exerting a large force to repel them off somewhere else, I guess. Like the ground.

2.) Being stronger than Naruto's mere dash. That is their most relevant feat here. I don't for one second think that if Naruto leapt past Madara he'd erase his torso, let alone do it five times over. Nor do I figure that if he were to have dashed towards the ground he'd have an impact similar to what Sakura did to those Jūblings.



> The Ten Tails was not really focused on Kitsuchi. It focused on the thousands of alliance members collectively, and thus Kitsuchi was able to activate his technique without drawing any attention to himself. It caught Madara & Obito off guard.



What matters is whether or not it would have been doing anything different. All if was doing was charging a Bijūdama- I don't think it would have made a difference whether it was focusing on the entire alliance or one person.

Suggesting that Gaara and Mei tilt the Tailed Beasts' heads in order to throw off their aim presupposes that the Tailed Beast they're facing is actually charging a Bijūdama, so they're really going to be about as much in the heat of battle as Kitsuchi was.



> Neither Mei nor Gaara have a technique that can "unexpectedly" move a Biju.



I think you're overestimating the size of those creatures, because their physical strength is only going to make a difference if they know to brace themselves.



> Unless they're fighting in a desert, Gaara has no means of budging one.



He'll probably have enough of one by the time Kokuo resorts to a Bijūdama.



> Her only technique that stands a chance at making the 2 Tails flinch is an overt water dragon technique cannoned from her mouth...



Well she has access to that Jutsu doesn't she? I don't see what it being overt has to do with anything; her Jutsu execution speed is up there if she can blast lava beneath a Madara mere inches from the ground and flood the area between Tsunade and Madara's Katon despite the attack only having a couple feet to go.



> I was referring to after Madara started sticking swords in them.



At that point he had no reason to, because by then Hashirama was already trying to move the fight to the coastline because he didn't want the landscape to be completely decimated. Deflecting with Rashōmon results in the same thing as uppercutting Kurama with a wooden construct, which is that those attacks had such a range that they were going to tear up the environment anyway as Hashirama noticed when the blast reached the opposite shore.



> Jinton does indeed take as long as Bijudama, especially if Onoki is going to make one so big.



Mhmm.

So you really think that this _(1)_, _(2)_, _(3)_, _(4)_, _(5)_ takes as long as this _(6)_, _(7)_, _(8)_, _(9)_, _(10)_?

I really hope not.


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## Rocky (Mar 2, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> 2.) Being stronger than Naruto's mere dash. That is their most relevant feat here. I don't for one second think that if Naruto leapt past Madara he'd erase his torso, let alone do it five times over. Nor do I figure that if he were to have dashed towards the ground he'd have an impact similar to what Sakura did to those Jūblings.



A is slower & weaker than Biju Mode Naruto, so I take it you're now just arguing for Tsunade.

So for one, Naruto probably can smash a hole in Madara with a full speed punch. If Base Lee wearing a fraction of Naruto's chakra packed enough speed & power to kick through him, then the actual BM Naruto, who is exponentially faster & stronger than Base Lee, could probably manage to do some sever damage.

Secondly, Tsunade uses chakra enhanced strength to accomplish those feats, which is a miniature explosion of chakra into the target. Doing that to a live bomb just seems like a bad idea in my head. It's also worth noting that if fired point blank, Tsunade may not be capable of physically reacting. Bijudama's travel speed matched that of Sasuke's arrow, and they have other feats like crossing the continent in seconds. 

Lastly, if all else fails and Tsunade does repel one, the Biju can likely just use the technique a second time in the form of a beam by swallowing it like Bee, or possibly even just use Renzoku Bijudama.



> What matters is whether or not it would have been doing anything different. All if was doing was charging a Bijūdama- I don't think it would have made a difference whether it was focusing on the entire alliance or one person.



Ermm, preparing itself? If it see's the dragon coming, it's just going to jump out of the way, finish charging, and fire the blast down at Mei. Or block the dragon, finish charging, and fire the blast at Mei.



> I think you're overestimating the size of those creatures, because their physical strength is only going to make a difference if they know to brace themselves.



Which they do...? They aren't mindless, that was retconned. 



> He'll probably have enough of one by the time Kokuo resorts to a Bijūdama.



Gaara isn't going to have time to grind. The 5-Tails is going to run him over if he isn't completely focused on running for his life. He can fly away, but that's going to prompt Bijudama before Gaara's had any time to grind.



> Well she has access to that Jutsu doesn't she? I don't see what it being overt has to do with anything; her Jutsu execution speed is up there if she can blast lava beneath a Madara mere inches from the ground and flood the area between Tsunade and Madara's Katon despite the attack only having a couple feet to go.



It being overt means that she isn't surprising a Biju with it, which makes the whole:

_"but if they're just kinda standing there and not expecting to suddenly be pushed they wouldn't be any harder to move than a boss summon."_

...irrelevant. She isn't going to be anywhere near the 2-Tails anyway if it opts to actually bother with a range attack, so there isn't a feasible way in my mind that she's going to _interrupt_ Bijudama with a projectile dragon from across the map.



> At that point he had no reason to, because by then Hashirama was already trying to move the fight to the coastline because he didn't want the landscape to be completely decimated. Deflecting with Rashōmon results in the same thing as uppercutting Kurama with a wooden construct, which is that those attacks had such a range that they were going to tear up the environment anyway as Hashirama noticed when the blast reached the opposite shore.



Good point.



> Mhmm.
> 
> So you really think that this _(1)_, _(2)_, _(3)_, _(4)_, _(5)_ takes as long as this _(6)_, _(7)_, _(8)_, _(9)_, _(10)_?
> 
> I really hope not.



lol

Kishimoto isn't exactly consistent with his charge times, so I loved how you picked one of the quickest showings of Jinton against the longest of Bijudama. I can do the same. Do I think _this_ is faster _than_ _this_? Yes I do. 

Gaara had time to form a sand platform for Naruto to hit with a chakra arm, turn himself around, and shoot up another chakra arm at Mu. Kurama formed and fired Bijudama before the Dragon could move it's head to bite him.

The funny thing is, Bijudama doesn't even have to be faster. It just has to be enough quick enough so that when the 7-Tails begins charging it, Onoki can't charge up a Jinton and blast its head off before it fires.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 3, 2015)

lol at the notion that Tailed Beast Mode Naruto merely _moving_ at high speeds was enough to generate a shockwave that could repel the bombs.

If that was true, Kakashi and Gai should have been ripped to shreds, if not at least sent flying for a distance of dozens of kilometers, since they were in extreme proximity of Naruto when he unleashed that godly Body Flicker. Nope, instead they withstood the force of the shockwave and remained rooted to the ground even as Naruto moving at those same speeds passed within 3-4 meters of them.

Let's not forget here, folks, that a miniature Tailed Beast Bomb formed by Four-Tailed Naruto was so dense and heavy that it sunk Naruto to the ground, pinning him and rendering him immobile. This is an individual capable of ripping apart bodies with sheer strength (Orochimaru's too; if you recall, his body withstood Tsunade's punches over and over) and unleashing shockwaves with mere swings - ergo, someone likely physically stronger than Ay. 

That bomb is a far cry from vastly larger ones used by vastly more powerful, fully-formed Tailed Beasts. And people think Ay or Tsunade could stop or repel said bombs when they're moving at insanely fast velocities? L-O-L

In your fucking dreams.


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## Ersa (Mar 3, 2015)

Itachi solos.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A is slower & weaker than Biju Mode Naruto.



Is he _more than 5 times_ slower and weaker, though?



> If Base Lee wearing a fraction of Naruto's chakra packed enough speed & power to kick through him, then the actual BM Naruto, who is exponentially faster & stronger than Base Lee, could probably manage to do some sever damage.



The cloak has piercing capabilities, which is why Lee _sliced_ through Madara instead of popping a hole in him just like the alliance _sliced_ through those Jūbi appendages. It is far easier to slice through a person than to bash your way through them via blunt force trauma, and there were no slash marks on those Bijūdamas Naruto deflected.



> Secondly, Tsunade uses chakra enhanced strength to accomplish those feats, which is a miniature explosion of chakra into the target. Doing that to a live bomb just seems like a bad idea in my head.



The explosion of Chakra involved in CES only amounts to additional blunt force, though- there is no extreme rise in heat, there is no sudden release of gases, there is no shrapnel(unless you count the ground but she's not hitting that here); that's why almost everybody who sees it is liable to simply acknowledge it as outrageous physical strength. It should be fine.



> It's also worth noting that if fired point blank, Tsunade may not be capable of physically reacting. Bijudama's travel speed matched that of Sasuke's arrow, and they have other feats like crossing the continent in seconds.



When did this happen again? Not that I necessarily doubt you, I just don't remember when that happened.

Danzō had just touched the ground again after the arrow had already been fired. He realized that the Susano'o arrow was too fast to for seals _as_ he watched it come towards him and grew a tree out of his arm in order to change the arrow's trajectory before it reached him. Kakashi was already on a surface, but didn't he actually manage to at least barely dodge one? He used the Mangekyō, but there was still that enormous splash, so at least one of the two arrows had to land without being warped, and still not hit Kakashi, apparently...

Tsunade doesn't have to get out of the way, just throw a strike. If she's really _that_ close that even that isn't possible I'd have to wonder why she didn't just leap back while it was still charging up, because it seems like staying there might risk her knocking the blast back into Saiken.

I don't know if the Jūbi's feat can be handed to the lesser Tailed Beasts. One because of how massive the gap between them and even Kurama is, two because it seemed to add even more shape manipulation into its blast, which we haven't seen from the other Tailed Beasts. It's probably a lot faster for the same reason it can reach a lot further. Shikaku also went through a whole lot of speaking for that to have been mere seconds, though.



> Lastly, if all else fails and Tsunade does repel one, the Biju can likely just use the technique a second time in the form of a beam by swallowing it like Bee, or possibly even just use Renzoku Bijudama.



If that's an ability all Tailed Beasts are capable of then yeah.

Or Saiken falls in love with Katsuyu and they run off so Tsunade wins by ring-out?



> Which they do...? They aren't mindless, that was retconned.





> It being overt means that she isn't surprising a Biju with it.



It wasn't retconned. The first thing the Ten Tails did when it was brought out was go crazy and Kurama recalls Madara telling him he was an unstable force lacking intelligence during the war arc; it was just a description of the way they acted when they were out on their own.

They don't have to be mindless, and something being visible doesn't necessarily mean it can't surprise you. It just has to happen quick enough, which at any moderate distance it will if only because of how large those floods are. Look at Kabuto vs. Shizune- Poison Fog surprised Kabuto despite being used in plain sight, had it been larger it would have gotten him. The Katon Madara used against Tsunade was similar in size to Matatabi's head and yet Mei produced several times as much water before it even hit Tsunade. Matatabi lowers its head to aim before launching Bijūdama, so chances are it's going to be surprised by it.

On that note:



> She isn't going to be anywhere near the 2-Tails anyway if it opts to actually bother with a range attack.



Just because an attack has a large range doesn't mean the target can't be fairly close at the time it is used.

If you'll recall, Matatabi, Isobu, Kokuo, Saiken, and Chōmei were near Kakashi and Gai when they tried to nuke them, Gyūki resorted to the Bijūdama against Taka because Suigetsu was right in front of him trying to block him off, and Kurama was practically right in front of Hiruzen when he decided to launch one.



> Gaara isn't going to have time to grind. The 5-Tails is going to run him over if he isn't completely focused on running for his life. He can fly away, but that's going to prompt Bijudama before Gaara's had any time to grind.



Gaara can control material he's already focused his Chakra into from amazing distances, that's why he could lift all that sand up from behind Sunagakure despite being in the air above the village. If he so much as starts before being forced to run away then he should be able to keep grinding in the meantime.



> Kishimoto isn't exactly consistent with his charge times, so I loved how you picked one of the quickest showings of Jinton against the longest of Bijudama. I can do the same. Do I think _this_ is faster _than_ _this_? Yes I do.



Then you try go for what the norm is to make it as consistent as possible.

And I love how you accuse me of cherrypicking the quickest Jinton charge ups before linking to one of those very times whilst claiming that you can do what I supposedly did (link to the longest times of the thing I'm comparing to). It just goes to show what a blatant lie that was, because it makes it clear that you _already know_ the only time Jinton has ever taken significantly longer to charge was when Tsunade was supercharging it to expand over half the height of final Susano'o, which doesn't apply here as there is no need for Ohnoki to have someone go through the canonically complicated process of transferring Chakra over- let alone until it reaches that gargantuan size.......obviously.

Your assertion that Gaara had time to form a sand platform for Naruto to bounce off of before shooting another Chakra arm at Mū is also inaccurate, because Mū didn't even start charging until _after_ the platform had been formed. And was the Mokuryū even trying to bite Kurama yet? It didn't try to bite Naruto immediately- Kakashi and Obito had that entire Jutsu exchange that ended with Kakashi being sent to box land and trying to warp his way back out after laying there for a moment in the time between the Mokuryū wrapping around Naruto and actually biting down on him, so there could have been a while between those panels even considering that Kurama was able to break the dragon before it bit him.

I wouldn't even be _so_ quick to scale from Kurama's fastest showings anyway since he's already shown to be able to charge more Chakra into his attacks significantly faster than the other Tailed Beasts _(1)_, probably because he just has that much more of it to use than they do. It would logically take Chōmei much longer to manifest and fire the same type of attack, because it took longer even when it was working with the other Tailed Beasts.



> The funny thing is, Bijudama doesn't even have to be faster. It just has to be enough quick enough so that when the 7-Tails begins charging it, Onoki can't charge up a Jinton and blast its head off before it fires.



Not just before it fires, before it reaches Ohnoki, because otherwise he could just launch a beam instead, which would keep going past the Bijūdama and into Chōmei.



ATastyMuffin said:


> The notion that Tailed Beast Mode Naruto merely _moving_ at high speeds was enough to generate a shockwave that could repel the bombs.



is just something you pulled out from all of that hair growing out of your butt.

_I_ never once said that he deflected the bombs with the mere shockwave produced by his speed. That's why I pointed out that I'm not expecting him dashing into the ground to have the same _impact_(define that word if you need to, ATM) that Tsunade Jr.'s punch did.



> Let's not forget here, folks, that a miniature Tailed Beast Bomb formed by Four-Tailed Naruto was so dense and heavy that it sunk Naruto to the ground, pinning him and rendering him immobile.



I doubt that actually had much of anything to do with its physical weight because the ground was indented _while it was still *floating in the air*_ with no actual area of contact, _not_ after it was ingested. That's was more akin to Orochimaru and Hiruzen's general Chakra pressure breaking up the roof they were standing on or Nagato's producing a gust of wind that caused the Anbu to cover their faces.

Swallowing it didn't do anything to Naruto besides make him fat as a hog (letting him fill the pre-existing crater up, _not_ make it even bigger as it should have if its weight was actually responsible for it), which made it harder for him to move, it did not immobilize him because of its sheer weight pinning him down.



> This is an individual capable of ripping apart bodies with sheer strength (Orochimaru's too; if you recall, his body withstood Tsunade's punches over and over).



You're skipping over the difference between _slicing_ attacks performed with claws and _blunt force_ strikes dished out with fists. You also ought to consider that Orochimaru's body is extremely elastic, meaning that it would shift to accommodate the impact of someone's fist and then resume its shape afterwards. Ay could have done the same thing just as easily with a chop because Orochimaru's body is _tough_, not _hard_, and out-of-shape, out-of-practice, fatigued, alcoholic Tsunade only ever hit Orochimaru _once_ with her muscles actually intact- which _knocked him out_ until Manda's disappearance and the subsequent jerk on his tongue woke him up again.


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## Rocky (Mar 5, 2015)

If I didn't address a part of your post, I probably agreed. 



FlamingRain said:


> Is he _more than 5 times_ slower and weaker, though?



I don't know. I couldn't answer that without Kishimoto.

I don't see why he needs to be, though, as Naruto didn't repel the Bijudama x5 combo, he swatted five separate ones in quick succession. Or at least that's what I'm assuming if we're following the premise that he did it with physical strength & speed, 'cause Naruto doesn't have five hands. 



> The cloak has piercing capabilities, which is why Lee _sliced_ through Madara instead of popping a hole in him just like the alliance _sliced_ through those Jūbi appendages. It is far easier to slice through a person than to bash your way through them via blunt force trauma, and there were no slash marks on those Bijūdamas Naruto deflected.



Erm, Naruto's cloak isn't inherently sharp. Nobody would be able to touch Naruto in a Kurama Chakra form without losing limbs, and that wasn't a thing.

The chakra is often shaped into a _claw_ and it then becomes sharp, but Lee didn't do that.



> When did this happen again? Not that I necessarily doubt you, I just don't remember when that happened.



[1]

It's a feat of Naruto/Kurama and not whichever Biju Tsunade is fighting, but Bijudama velocity was never really stressed as being dependent on the number of tails.



> They don't have to be mindless, and something being visible doesn't necessarily mean it can't surprise you. It just has to happen quick enough, which at any moderate distance it will if only because of how large those floods are. Look at Kabuto vs. Shizune- Poison Fog surprised Kabuto despite being used in plain sight, had it been larger it would have gotten him. The Katon Madara used against Tsunade was similar in size to Matatabi's head and yet Mei produced several times as much water before it even hit Tsunade. Matatabi lowers its head to aim before launching Bijūdama, so chances are it's going to be surprised by it.



...Shizune used that poison fog while leaping away from a chakra scalpel, a _melee_ technique, and we were unsure of Mei's exact position during her interception of Madara's fire style. 

Mei can throw off Matatabi's aim if she smacks it in the face from ten feet away, but Mei isn't going to be that close if Matatabi is actually using Bijudama.



> Just because an attack has a large range doesn't mean the target can't be fairly close at the time it is used.



That isn't my point. My point is that the punching bag for giants isn't going to be within 50 meters of a _gigantic tiger_ if she wants to survive for more than ten seconds. 

There is no reason for the Nibi not to just stomp Mei out unless the Mizukage is managing to put some major distance in between them.



> Gaara can control material he's already focused his Chakra into from amazing distances, that's why he could lift all that sand up from behind Sunagakure despite being in the air above the village. If he so much as starts before being forced to run away then he should be able to keep grinding in the meantime.



The Gaara fight can start one of two ways.

1.) Gaara tries to stop the charge of the 5-Tails with any of his sand defenses, fails to do so, and gets ran over.

2.) Gaara takes to the skies in an attempt to avoid what happened in scenario 1, prompting the Gobi to go for it's only ranged attack. 

Gaara shouldn't have "a desert" in the amount of time it takes for either of those scenarios to unfold. 



> Then you try go for what the norm is to make it as consistent as possible.



I agree, and when taking every usage of Bijudama and finding an estimation of the charge time, I don't really see a meaningful difference between it and Jinton.



> Not just before it fires, before it reaches Ohnoki, because otherwise he could just launch a beam instead, which would keep going past the Bijūdama and into Chōmei.



Jinton would just cause the Bijudama to detonate. I expect it to have the same effect on explosive Ninjutsu as Obito's Gudodama (which essentially is an upgraded Jinton) had.


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2015)

what do people think about tsunade ability to use katsuyu to tank BD

am sure it can

following what flamming rain said. its possible for Ei to deflect a BD. i dont see why not. actually if he can all the kages can. am not sure anymore


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2015)

Cranky Kakashi and Base Guy fought 5 bijuus for an eternity before Bijuudama even came up.

Sage Naruto beat up the 9 tails in mind space.  Hell, he suplexed it.

Ei chops Hachibi horns, and got a durability raise to make him more like his father who tied with the Hachibi 1v1.

Akatsuki beat bijuu and jins who go bijuu for a day job.

Tsunade:
Deidara knocked one out with C2, and I don't think C2 can shatter Susano.  She also has raishinsho which could well work to disable.  Which is weird, but it doesn't have a reason not to work.  Her slug is also an eldrich abomination.  She can probably suplex better than Naruto too.

Onoki:  
The super weight technique can render it useless.

Ei:
Durable and choppy enough to tango with bijuu.

Mei:
Nibi is made of fire, and cats hate water.  She's a good pick.

Gaara:
His normal attacks got mistaken for those of the Shukaku.  That means he has bijuu scale attacks.  Bijuu should be able to fight with bijuu.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 6, 2015)

> Durable



Realy? So he can withstand a Bijuu Dama?


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## Joakim3 (Mar 7, 2015)

The Kages get fucking nuked into oblivion

Barbaric stomp, the only one who poses any semblance of a threat is Onoki, and IC Onoki will try to save his teammates and die because of it


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