# Sage Kabuto vs. The Sannin



## Nikushimi (Mar 14, 2014)

*Location:* Kabuto's Cave
*Distance:* 5m
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Edo Tensei is restricted.
-Orochimaru has the use of his arms.
-Kabuto starts in Sage Mode.
-Jiraiya starts in base.

*Scenario 2:* Jiraiya starts in Sage Mode as well.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2014)

Sannin Modo Jiriaya alone would give Sannin Modo Kabuto a good fight, and Jiraiya w/ Tsunade/Orochimaru there to support him  is certainly going to be able to achieve Sannin Modo here.

- Senpo Haguki gets deflected by Shima's Senpo Fuuton; same thing for Senpo Mugen Onsa
- Muki Tensei gets blocked by Senpo Needle Jizo, outright avoided, or the Cave Terraformed back to normal by the heat of Senpo Katon Dai Endon.
- Kidomaru's Webs get blocked Senpo Katon Dai Endon
- Brakken Dance gets sliced up by Senpo Zessenzan
- Frog Song and Toad Gourd Barrier Seal can deal w/ Kabuto's freakish durability

Add in the other 2 Sannin and it's a stomp.

When will people learn that no single character besides Juubi-Jins and Hashirama, can step to all 3 Sannin.


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## ARGUS (Mar 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> When will people learn that no single character besides Juubi-Jins and Hashirama, can step to all 3 Sannin.



Naruto (kcm or above), 
edo Minato (kcm or above), 
ems Madara or above,,,,
obito ms or above,, nagato,,, and sasuke, killer bee or kabuto under favourable conditions
most of these guys beat the sannin by themselves comfortably


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## Mercurial (Mar 14, 2014)

Kabuto blitzes.

A lot of people can stomp the Sannin:

- Current Juubidara
- Alive Rinnegan + SM Madara
- Edo Madara
- EMS Madara
- Hashirama
- BSM Naruto
- BM Naruto
- KCM Naruto
- EMS Sasuke
- Tobirama
- Minato
- KCM/BM Minato
- Current MS Kakashi
- Current Gated Gai
- MS Obito
- MS + Rinnegan Obito
- Juubito
- Itachi
- DSM Kabuto
- Nagato
- Six Paths of Pain

The manga evolved. Don't rest locked in the past.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 14, 2014)

Base Jiraiya and Tsunade 5m? ...... they gonna get blitzes honestly. 

The Sannin literally has no way to kill Kabuto, while Kabuto has some deadly counters to Sannin. Sound tech is immune to Kabuto w/ his liquified body, Chakra scalpel bypass Tsunade's strength. While technically Sannin is vulnerable to Sound Genjutsu, and their summons isn't overwhelming Manda II.

Kabuto himself is just a better version of the Sannin who can use their techs in an even greater extent.


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## Grimsley (Mar 14, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kabuto blitzes.
> 
> A lot of people can stomp the Sannin:
> 
> ...



no. dont be delusional.


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## Trojan (Mar 14, 2014)

The sannin stomp low difficult. I could even argue that SM Jman solos him.

Turrin.

.


> When will people learn that no single character besides Juubi-Jins and Hashirama, can step to all 3 Sannin.



What can Hashirama do against Frog Song? @.@


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> Naruto (kcm or above),
> edo Minato (kcm or above),
> ems Madara or above,,,,
> obito ms or above,, nagato,,, and sasuke, killer bee or kabuto under favourable conditions
> most of these guys beat the sannin by themselves comfortably


Madara and Obito are Juubi Jins now, hence why I did count them. Maybe you could also make an argument for White-Fang and Prime-Hanzo, if you believe their hype; forgot about them, but they are all hype anyway. 

I guarantee you that if Kishimoto was writing the battle none of the others would win. Kishi compared Team 7 to the Sannin when they were Byakugo-Sakura, KCM-Naruto, and EMS-Sasuke, that's how strong Team 7 had to become to be consider = to the Sannin by Kishimoto. The Sannin were suppose to be nigh unbeatable and that was back in the day when they fought as a Team and they have become even stronger since then. I mean according to Kishimoto their team-works was suppose to make each of them x3 stronger:

_"During fights, their skills would increase thrice fold and create stories of great battlefield deeds. Especially, places of battle where the three fought together were their own stage. Stories of their battlefield deeds have evolved into legends. "_

This is because Sannin have perfect combination Jutsu and abilities to perfectly compliment each other. It's like when we saw Team 7 fight after being compared to the Sannin, there abilities when fighting together increased astronomically, because their team-work was so effective.


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## Bonly (Mar 14, 2014)

Kabuto can handily beat any of the Sannin in a 1V1 match but I'm not sure if he could beat all three at once without Edo. I'd say it depends on how he plays the fight and the other ninja whose DNA he also absorbed.


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## ARGUS (Mar 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Madara and Obito are Juubi Jins now, hence why I did count them. Maybe you could also make an argument for White-Fang and Prime-Hanzo, if you believe their hype; forgot about them, but they are all hype anyway.
> 
> I guarantee you that if Kishimoto was writing the battle none of the others would win. Kishi compared Team 7 to the Sannin when they were Byakugo-Sakura, KCM-Naruto, and EMS-Sasuke, that's how strong Team 7 had to become to be consider = to the Sannin by Kishimoto. The Sannin were suppose to be nigh unbeatable and that was back in the day when they fought as a Team and they have become even stronger since then. I mean according to Kishimoto their team-works was suppose to make each of them x3 stronger:



Nah I wrote that Madara even in EMS form,, and Obito in MS form could beat the sannin,,, since the sannin really stand no chance against PS,, and have no counters to kamui at all,, 

Prime Hanzo canonically defeateed the sannin,,, however we have never seen White Fang fighgt,,which is why i dont include him,,,, 

Yes,,, But logically the 5 kage were also supposed to be one of the strongest teams,, with great team work,,, but Madara toyed with them,,,
Sannin are unbeatable if we count Edo Tensei for Orochimaru,,, otherwise if we look by feats all the chharacters that i have mentioned can beat them,,,


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## StickaStick (Mar 14, 2014)

At 5m Kabuto blitzes Jiraiya similar to how he did Itachi and takes care of the other two easily afterwards. Scenario 2 I give it to the Sannin high dif; low diff if Jiraiya has Ma and Pa then Frog Song solos.


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## Lawrence777 (Mar 14, 2014)

Don't see what they can do if Kabuto uses white rage or his sound genjutsu early on. With 5m and full knowledge none of them are going to be faster than Kabuto to pull off a jutsu before he does either.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sannin Modo Jiriaya alone would give Sannin Modo Kabuto a good fight,



Hahahahahahaha.



> - Senpo Haguki gets deflected by Shima's Senpo Fuuton; same thing for Senpo Mugen Onsa



Dunno if a simple Fuuton would be enough to stop Hakugeki's effects.



> - Frog Song and Toad Gourd Barrier Seal can deal w/ Kabuto's freakish durability



Kabuto can shed his skin to avoid the acid, plus he has regen and can liquify his body. Using Magen: Gamarinshou is going to give Kabuto the opportunity to use Mugen Onsa, which he can do a lot faster.



> When will people learn that no single character besides Juubi-Jins and Hashirama, can step to all 3 Sannin.



Probably never because it isn't true.

Edo Minato, Naruto, and Sasuke can all stomp the Sannin with no difficulty while Nagato, Itachi, and normal Minato have good chances of beating them as well.



New Folder said:


> The sannin stomp low difficult. I could even argue that SM Jman solos him.



AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*cough* *cough* *cough*
*hack*
*cough* *cough*
*wheeze*
*cough*



> What can Hashirama do against Frog Song? @.@



Completely paste Jiraiya with a casual Mokuton Jutsu before he can even get into Sage Mode or think of using that Genjutsu.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> Nah I wrote that Madara even in EMS form,, and Obito in MS form could beat the sannin,,, since the sannin really stand no chance against PS,, and have no counters to kamui at all,,
> 
> Prime Hanzo canonically defeateed the sannin,,, however we have never seen White Fang fighgt,,which is why i dont include him,,,,
> 
> ...


Madara in all forms can beat the Sannin, I just referred to him as a Juubi Jin, because he is one now. 

MS Obito would not beat the Sannin. The Sannin have many ways to counter Kamui by exploiting it's weaknesses. 

5 Kages are probably not as good as the Sannin, as they don't have the legendary team-work that increased their skills many-fold. They also are all individually weaker than Jiriaya & Orochimaru, except Onoki, but if Jiriaya is in Sannin Modo that is certainly debatable, and I lean towards Sannin Modo Jiriaya as Senjutsu/Natural energy is the GoaT power of the manga and basically anyone who uses Sannin Modo enters mary-sue mode, where only absolutely ridiculous powers can contend, and even than Kishi pulls out nonsense for Sannin Modo to become more powerful and still usually win, or would have won, if not for X-Excuse for their loss.

Even still the amount of people who can defeat all 5 Gokage is a very short list.

As for going off feats, feats only take us so far when we haven't seen the Sannin fight together. We don't know what crazy combo play that the Sannin would produce like Naruto's/Sasuke's  Enton Kagatsuchi FRS Arrow. 

However even by feats you can make a strong argument for the Sannin beating all of these characters.


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## The Undying (Mar 14, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Edo Minato, Naruto, and Sasuke can all stomp the Sannin with no difficulty while Nagato, Itachi, and normal Minato have good chances of beating them as well.




I'm not trying to offend you here, but I have to wonder why you created this thread if you think all those characters either stomp or low diff the combined efforts of Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade. Do you personally think the Sannin even stand a chance?


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## Nikushimi (Mar 14, 2014)

The Undying said:


> I'm not trying to offend you here, but I have to wonder why you created this thread if you think all those characters either stomp or low diff the combined efforts of Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade. Do you personally think the Sannin even stand a chance?



Against Kabuto? Yeah, together and with full knowledge, the three of them have a shot--though I wouldn't say it's a very good one. I wanted to see what other people thought about it, though.

In case you're wondering, no, I don't consider Sage Kabuto stronger than Itachi or Nagato.

EDIT: And don't worry about offending me, seriously, what is this? Fat camp?


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## The Undying (Mar 14, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I wanted to see what other people thought about it, though.




I think your circumstances and conditions favor Kabuto pretty highly. Close distance in the cave with Kabuto starting in Sage Mode doesn't give the Sannin a lot of time to do anything. Actually, I would hesitate to call it a fair fight.

This is coming from someone who holds the Sannin in higher regard than a lot of people in the NBD.



> And don't worry about offending me, seriously, what is this? Fat camp?




Fat camp wouldn't surprise me.


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 14, 2014)

I think people simply underestiamte kabutos SM and his enhanced abilities. Personally I think he would murderstomp any one of the sannin with moderate difficutly at this point but with Edo tensei restricted hes not going to win 3v1. They will eventually wear him down


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## Trojan (Mar 14, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> *cough* *cough* *cough*
> *hack*
> ...



- Yeah, Yeah, we all can laugh and all that crap, but can you tell me how Kabuto can win? 
- I'm talking about before or after, I'm talking about the Frog Song itself.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Hahahahahahaha.
> .






> Dunno if a simple Fuuton would be enough to stop Hakugeki's effects.






> Kabuto can shed his skin to avoid the acid, plus he has regen and can liquify his body.


_"In the gourd is a tranquil and terrifying barrier space *where no escape is possible*."_



> Using Magen: Gamarinshou is going to give Kabuto the opportunity to use Mugen Onsa, which he can do a lot faster.


Fair point; they could get stuck in an infinite loop:

Magen: Gamarinsho
Senpo Mugen Onsa
Senpo Fuuton
Magen: Gamarinsho
Senpo Mugen Onsa
Senpo Fuuton
Magen: Gamarinsho
Senpo Mugen Onsa
Senpo Fuuton




> Probably never because it isn't true.






> Edo Minato







> Naruto


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2014)

> Sasuke









> Nagato







> Itachi


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## Trojan (Mar 14, 2014)

lol turrin. 

but your effort will be in vain, Jman and the sannin in general are too underrated here for the sake of horrible
characters to get wanked such as itachi.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 14, 2014)

5 meters? How is Kabuto not supposed to blitz them? Manda II trumps their summons, they can't even touch Kabuto when he could dodge Sasuke's arrow. Haku Geki can stun them long enough for Kabuto to get in a fatal blow with his scalpel. Or he could just freeze them with Tayuya's genjutsu.



Turrin said:


> Sannin Modo Jiriaya alone would give Sannin Modo Kabuto a good fight, and Jiraiya w/ Tsunade/Orochimaru there to support him  is certainly going to be able to achieve Sannin Modo here.
> 
> - Senpo Haguki gets deflected by Shima's Senpo Fuuton; same thing for Senpo Mugen Onsa
> - Muki Tensei gets blocked by Senpo Needle Jizo, outright avoided, or the Cave Terraformed back to normal by the heat of Senpo Katon Dai Endon.
> ...



How on earth do any of them avoid Muki Tensei when Itachi and Sasuke could not? The thing comes from all directions it isn't even possible. Kabuto's body means frog song is useless. I'm not even sure if Jiraiya's Katon can replicate Amaterasu's feat.  how is Fukasaku's wind technique supposed to counter sound? What even implies it has that capability? Just because Temari's did doesn't mean it can, as Temari's covered more area while this was just a single stream. Orochimaru's fuuton from part 1 stands a better chance at doing that.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> How on earth do any of them avoid Muki Tensei when Itachi and Sasuke could not?


Itachi did have time to defend, and Sasuke didn't need to defend as the Jutsu wasn't aimed at him. 

Anyway Sannin Modo J-man is faster than Itachi and Orochimaru/Tsunade don't need to defend due to regeneration.



> Kabuto's body means frog song is useless.


Why?



> I'm not even sure if Jiraiya's Katon can replicate Amaterasu's feat.


It's a Senjutsu Enhanced Katon, pretty sure it can replicate the feat.



> how is Fukasaku's wind technique supposed to counter sound? What even implies it has that capability? Just because Temari's did doesn't mean it can, as Temari's covered more area while this was just a single stream. Orochimaru's fuuton from part 1 stands a better chance at doing that.


Temari created a casual stream w/ her Fuuton, it's not like she used KKM or anything.


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## Fiiction (Mar 14, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> Naruto (kcm or above),
> edo Minato (kcm or above),
> ems Madara or above,,,,
> obito ms or above,, nagato,,, and sasuke, killer bee or kabuto under favourable conditions
> most of these guys beat the sannin by themselves comfortably



Take obito , bee  , and sasuke off that list.


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## LostSelf (Mar 14, 2014)

I wonder how cannot Nagato beat the Sannin with mid-diff...

OT: I do see the sannins with a shot at winning this, however, Kabuto is a quite dangerous opponent. But there are three vs one in this pretty close distance, so in that regards, the Sannins have the edge.

I don't know if Jiraiya can counter White rage, but if Kabuto can shoot another jutsu right awat, then he can activate Muki Tensei and get a clean shot. The problem, again, is that there are three together here... So Kabuto might get hit while he is defending from another attack or attacking. Right now i am backing up the Sannins. But gotta see this thread tomorrow, as i see Kabuto with chances of winning.


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## Rocky (Mar 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> When will people learn that no single character besides Juubi-Jins and Hashirama, can step to all 3 Sannin.




Naruto can, by casually using Bijuudama and blowing them up. Same with Edo Minato. Nagato can beat them with Chibaku Tensei.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I wonder how cannot Nagato beat the Sannin with mid-diff...


Considering that Kishi does not consider Pain Rikudo to be able to beat a Jiraiya w/ full knowledge, I can't see Nagato beating all the Sannin, as even remotely something Kishi would have happen. I mean Nagato [if were talking Edo-Restored Nagato] is stronger than the 6 Paths, but it's not by a huge margin, that makes up for an additional 2 Sannin, and the x3 power upgrade that the Sannin are suppose to enjoy when fighting as a single unit. 

Beyond that the Sannin have excellent counters to Nagato's Jutsu. All Three Sannin have a myriad of attacks that bypass HG-Realm, and w/ 3 of them there it's very easy for them to exploit the cool-down of Deva-Realm. Duel Vision via summons can easily be dealt w/ considering their knowledge of it from J-man, and that leaves Nagato w/ mobility issues and unable to evade a number of the Sannin's attacks. The power of all 3 Sannin combined can also probably bust CT, and i'm sure one of the Sannin would be smart enough to come to the same strategy that Itachi did [target the core]. Really CST is the only issue, but it seems to require charge time and the opens him up to attacks from the Sannin.



Rocky said:


> Naruto can, by casually using Bijuudama and blowing them up. Same with Edo Minato. Nagato can beat them with Chibaku Tensei.


No they can't. 

Orochimaru would use Roshomon to change the trajectory of the Bijuudama. Just like Hashirama did w/ the Susano'o-Kurama Bijuudama:
*Suiton*

Now you might say that Orochimaru has only shown Sanju Roshomon, while Hashirama used Gojo Roshomon, but there is no way that Sanju Roshomon took all of Orochimaru's chakra considering the other moves he was shown using and only got tired out due to body failure. Plus here he has Tsunade to replenish any stamina he looses with her medical ninjutsu. So between those two things he should be able to use Gojo Roshomon without issue to counter Bijuudama. Another method is Sannin Modo Jiraiya throwing of his trajectory with Senpo Yomi Numa or Senpo Frog Call.


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## Rocky (Mar 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Considering that Kishi does not consider Pain Rikudo to be able to beat a Jiraiya w/ full knowledge.




You always ignore the circumstances. Pain could not use any of his large scale attacks in his own village, and Jiraiya with knowledge could hypothetically target Nagato's real, crippled body. 

That statement doesn't apply to a match in a different location, where Pain is truly unrestricted. 



> The power of all 3 Sannin combined can also probably bust CT, and i'm sure one of the Sannin would be smart enough to come to the same strategy that Itachi did [target the core].




:sanji

What kind of projectile firepower can the Sannin use that even _comes close_ to the power of Bijudama, let alone a combination of that, Rasenshuriken, and Magatama?




> 5 Kages are probably not as good as the Sannin, as they don't have the legendary team-work that increased their skills many-fold.




Onoki soloes Orochimaru. Ei, Gaara, & Mei stomp the piss out of Jiraiya. Tsunade ties with herself, netting the 5 Kage a win.

Even if you include teamwork, the 5 Kage demonstrated great synergy with other. They won't be at any significant disadvantage there, and they have a pretty hefty advantage in power.


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## Ersa (Mar 14, 2014)

Sannin aren't underrated, they're rated very fairly. Compared to a weaker Kage like Gaara they are solidly ahead but don't even try compare them to monsters like Nagato, SM Kabuto and Edo Itachi. They get their shit pushed in.

This isn't Part I where Kage level itself was legendary.


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## Rocky (Mar 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No they can't.
> 
> Orochimaru would use Roshomon to change the trajectory of the Bijuudama. Just like Hashirama did w/ the Susano'o-Kurama Bijuudama:
> *Suiton*




HAHAHAHAHA

Orochimaru's gates were obliterated by Yonbi Naruto's water balloon-sized Bijuudama. It isn't doing *jack shit* to stop Bijuu-Sage Naruto's bombs that dwarf Bijuu.  



> Now you might say that Orochimaru has only shown Sanju Roshomon, while Hashirama used Gojo Roshomon, but there is no way that Sanju Roshomon took all of Orochimaru's chakra considering the other moves he was shown using and only got tired out due to body failure. Plus here he has Tsunade to replenish any stamina he looses with her medical ninjutsu. So between those two things he should be able to use Gojo Roshomon without issue to counter Bijuudama. Another method is Sannin Modo Jiraiya throwing of his trajectory with Senpo Yomi Numa or Senpo Frog Call.




Orochimaru can't use Hashirama's jutsu because he hasn't displayed the ability to. It isn't just about Chakra. Stamina isn't the only thing that goes into evolving techniques. If you want to use this argument, back it with something other than an unsupported, unlikely theory. Furthermore, Naruto's Bijuudama towers over anything Madara used against Hashirama, and they're far bigger than the gates. There's no proof that they would even budge his bijuu bombs.

As for Sage Jiraya (who doesn't magically start in Sage Mode) even causing Bijuu-Sage Naruto to flinch;

No.

Naruto sweeps them off their feet with chakra waves that launch fully formed bijuu. While they recover, Bijuudama good game, set, and match.


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## Trojan (Mar 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No they can't.
> 
> Orochimaru would use Roshomon to change the trajectory of the Bijuudama. Just like Hashirama did w/ the Susano'o-Kurama Bijuudama:
> *Suiton*
> ...



If oro used that to change the TBB way, in Minato's case since the jutsu has his chakra, what stop him from teleporting it back at Oro for example? 



Ersatz said:


> Sannin aren't underrated, they're rated very fairly. Compared to a weaker Kage like Gaara they are solidly ahead but don't even try compare them to monsters like Nagato, SM Kabuto and Edo Itachi. They get their shit pushed in.
> 
> This isn't Part I where Kage level itself was legendary.



They are underrated, people think character like itachi is stronger than Jman who itachi admitted inferiority to him, and even think itachi with a sharingan or without a sharingan can defeat Tsunade when she just fought 5 Susanoos at once that each of them is stronger than itachi, let alone all 5. Their ridiculousness goes even beyond that to state he can defeat all 3 together, which is pure ignorance.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You always ignore the circumstances. Pain could not use any of his large scale attacks in his own village
> .


No people ignore the actual language used in the statement. Pain says that they could have never defeated Jiriaya, if he had intel. "Never" and Pain saying they couldn't defeat Jiriaya is not the language used if Jiraiya was only able to win under very specific circumstances.

And really suddenly Pain cares about the village? He was ready to kill his own master that he loved, in-order to achieve his goals, there is no way he wouldn't blow up the village to win.



> nd Jiraiya with knowledge could hypothetically target Nagato's real, crippled body.


I do not think that is what's implied because it says "we" referring to the Rikudo, but if it is that's just vastly more impressive. And that means Jiraiya solo's Nagato. 

This crippled crap is BS. Living Nagato w/ Pain Rikudo and the ability to summon GM, was the strongest Nagato.



> What kind of projectile firepower can the Sannin use that even comes close to the power of Bijudama, let alone a combination of that, Rasenshuriken, and Magatama?


If you don't think Kishi would have Jiraiya + Orochimaru + Tsunade + the literal army of Summons they can pull out, combined have enough power to blow up CT core, we'll have to agree to disagree. I mean the fact of the matter is Itachi only pulled out Megatama when the situation demanded it, i'm sure that Orochimaru, Toads, & Snakes, we haven't seen demonstrate Long-Range Jutsu would pull something out in that given situation, and with their combined might it would be enough. 

But if you only buy feats, which I really dislike the idea that people won't accept anything other than feats, even when the logic is solid, but anyway -- the Sannin don't necessarily need to overpower CT anyway. Jiriaya can turn the rocks and terrain sucked up by CT into a swamp w/ Yomi Numa preventing the Sannin from being crushed and than they can escape CT, when the CT stops drawing objects in. Katsuya can also help in protecting them from being crushed, and than they can use Doton to escape. 



> Onoki soloes Orochimaru. Ei, Gaara, & Mei stomp the piss out of Jiraiya. Tsunade ties with herself, netting the 5 Kage a win.


Sure if we ignore the Team-Work aspect and separate things into match ups, which was my entire point as to why the Sannin would be better than the Gokage.



> Even if you include teamwork, the 5 Kage demonstrated great synergy with other. They won't be at any significant disadvantage there, and they have a pretty hefty advantage in power.


What synergy. They did one nice combo together at the end, that's it. That's not to the standards of the legendary team-work of the Sannin which is suppose to make each of them x3 stronger. I mean ask yourselves can the Gokage beat x3Orochimaru x3Jiriaya x3Tsunade?



Rocky said:


> HAHAHAHAHA
> 
> Orochimaru's gates were obliterated by Yonbi Naruto's water balloon-sized Bijuudama. It isn't doing *jack shit* to stop Bijuu-Sage Naruto's bombs that dwarf Bijuu.
> .


Dude like what the fuck, it's the same Gates, so if Hashirama can do that shit w/ 5 so can Orochimaru



> Orochimaru can't use Hashirama's jutsu because he hasn't displayed the ability to. It isn't just about Chakra. Stamina isn't the only thing that goes into evolving techniques. If you want to use this argument, back it with something other than an unsupported, unlikely theory.


Excuse me but Orochimaru can use the same Jutsu Kuchiyose Roshomon. Sanju or Gojo is just the number you summon, which is determined by the amount of chakra some one has.



> Furthermore, Naruto's Bijuudama towers over anything Madara used against Hashirama, and they're far bigger than the gates. There's no proof that they would even budge his bijuu bombs.


It was a Susano'o+Kyuubi Bijuudama combo, obviously it's very powerful. And quite honestly Orochimaru w/ Tsunade acting as a chakra battery could probably summon out more than 5 Roshomon.



> As for Sage Jiraya (who doesn't magically start in Sage Mode) even causing Bijuu-Sage Naruto to flinch;
> 
> No.
> 
> Naruto sweeps them off their feet with chakra waves that launch fully formed bijuu. While they recover, Bijuudama good game, set, and match.


When has Naruto swept people off their feat w/ Chakra roar and than immediately followed it up w/ Bijuu Bomb? Seems like a very unlikely strategy to me. And suddenly being swept off ones feet takes tons of time to recover from?

There is no reason Jiraiya can't throw off Naruto's aim w/ the Jutsu i've listed or hell Tsunade/J-man can straight up throw BM Naruto's cloaked form around, the same way Sannin Modo Naruto threw around 50% Kurama, to knock him off course. I mean give me one good reason why these methods won't work.

And once again I base a-lot of their ability to win off of what's been stated about how their team-work amplifies their skills tremendously. I would not fault someone for thinking BSM-Naruto or BSM-Minato can also win, but I simply do not think it would actually play out that way if Kishi-wrote the battle. It's not like such an assessment is underestimating their individual skills, like some of the assertions i've seen, but I just think it underestimates their team-work.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No people ignore the actual language used in the statement. Pain says that they could have never defeated Jiriaya, if he had intel. "Never" and Pain saying they couldn't defeat Jiriaya is not the language used if Jiraiya was only able to win under very specific circumstances.




Pain said Jiraiya certainly would've won the fight *that they just had* if he had more intel. That comment applies to only the circumstances of that fight.

Btw, that isn't the official translation anyway.



> And really suddenly Pain cares about the village? He was ready to kill his own master that he loved, in-order to achieve his goals, there is no way he wouldn't blow up the village to win.




Pain has always cared about his village. That doesn't mean he gave a damn about Jiraiya.



> I do not think that is what's implied because it says "we" referring to the Rikudo, but if it is that's just vastly more impressive. And that means Jiraiya solo's Nagato.
> 
> This crippled crap is BS. Living Nagato w/ Pain Rikudo and the ability to summon GM, was the strongest Nagato


.


Crippled Nagato in wheelchair < Pain. Why do you think he uses the Paths to fight. He can barley use his techniques without bending over and coughing up blood. 




> If you don't think Kishi would have Jiraiya + Orochimaru + Tsunade + the literal army of Summons they can pull out, combined have enough power to blow up CT core, we'll have to agree to disagree. I mean the fact of the matter is Itachi only pulled out Megatama when the situation demanded it, i'm sure that Orochimaru, Toads, & Snakes, we haven't seen demonstrate Long-Range Jutsu would pull something out in that given situation, and with their combined might it would be enough.




You're not Kishimoto, and you have no idea what he would do. Stop using "I don't think Kishi" unless it's something blatantly obvious like "Hashirama vs Sasori."



> Jiriaya can turn the rocks and terrain sucked up by CT into a swamp w/ Yomi Numa preventing the Sannin from being crushed and than they can escape CT, when the CT stops drawing objects in. Katsuya can also help in protecting them from being crushed, and than they can use Doton to escape.






The amount of terrain CT pulled in spanned an entire mountain range. Jiraiya can't make a big enough swamp. I also don't know why simple Doton would escape from CT's gravitational pull. That never goes away, which is why the rocks stay compacted.




> What synergy. They did one nice combo together at the end, that's it. That's not to the standards of the legendary team-work of the Sannin which is suppose to make each of them x3 stronger. I mean ask yourselves can the Gokage beat x3Orochimaru x3Jiriaya x3Tsunade?





Ei & Onoki super speed.
Onoki & Tsunade super Susano'o army obliterating Jinton.
Mei's Mist/Acid with the Raikage's speed creating unavoidable blitzes.
Lightened/weighted sand for quicker and more powerful attacks.
Onoki or Gaara can make them all fly
.


..it just keeps going. By feats, the 5 Kage excrete all over the Sannin in combination possibilities. That's to be expected, as 5 Kage level individuals working together is often better than three, even if the Sannin were once a team. Onoki also has a skill set that is incredibly helpful to his team mate.


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## Rocky (Mar 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> If Hashirama can do that shit w/ 5 so can Orochimaru




HAHAHAHAHA




> Excuse me but Orochimaru can use the same Jutsu Kuchiyose Roshomon. Sanju or Gojo is just the number you summon, which is determined by the amount of chakra some one has.




I bet Konahamaru can use Chao Odama Rasengan because Naruto can.....



> It was a Susano'o+Kyuubi Bijuudama combo, obviously it's very powerful. And quite honestly Orochimaru w/ Tsunade acting as a chakra battery could probably summon out more than 5 Roshomon.




The Kyusano'o Bijudama is much smaller than Naruto's and lacks Senjustu. Diverting the trajectory of something that large is quite difficult, as the Jubi displayed. Naruto' bijuudama are bigger than multiple Bijuu, while Kyusano'o's was the size of Kurama's mouth.




> When has Naruto swept people off their feat w/ Chakra roar and than immediately followed it up w/ Bijuu Bomb? Seems like a very unlikely strategy to me. And suddenly being swept off ones feet takes tons of time to recover from?




Being swept off their feet takes away their opportunity to intercept Naruto.



> Tsunade/J-man can straight up throw BM Naruto's cloaked form around, the same way Sannin Modo Naruto threw around 50% Kurama, to knock him off course. I mean give me one good reason why these methods won't work.




WHAT THE FUCK.

You can probably tell I'm highly agitated right now. Sage Jiraiya & Tsunade throw around Bijuu-Sage Naruto? Are you serious? Even without his avatar, his speed alone bounces away mountain busters. If they even get close to him, they get ripped to shreds with no difficulty whatsoever. 



> And once again I base a-lot of their ability to win off of what's been stated about how their team-work amplifies their skills tremendously. I would not fault someone for thinking BSM-Naruto or BSM-Minato can also win, but I simply do not think it would actually play out that way if Kishi-wrote the battle. It's not like such an assessment is underestimating their individual skills, like some of the assertions i've seen, but I just think it underestimates their team-work.




You're living in Part 1, and it's resulting in gross overestimation, not fair judgement.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 15, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I think people simply underestiamte kabutos SM and his enhanced abilities. Personally I think he would murderstomp any one of the sannin with moderate difficutly at this point but with Edo tensei restricted hes not going to win 3v1. They will eventually wear him down



How do you wear down someone who has infinite Sage Mode thanks to Jugo's ability to draw in natural energy continuously, and a genetic make-up that includes Uzumaki DNA?



New Folder said:


> - Yeah, Yeah, we all can laugh and all that crap, but can you tell me how Kabuto can win?



Mugen Onsa, and then kill them all at his leisure.



> - I'm talking about before or after, I'm talking about the Frog Song itself.



Nothing, then. But that's like asking what he can do when he's stabbed by the Totsuka no Tsurugi.

Doesn't matter because Hashirama can effortlessly flatten Jiraiya and Itachi at the same time before they can do anything.



Turrin said:


> _"In the gourd is a tranquil and terrifying barrier space *where no escape is possible*."_



Kabuto could always avoid being trapped in there in the first place, with full knowledge.



> Fair point; they could get stuck in an infinite loop:
> 
> Magen: Gamarinsho
> Senpo Mugen Onsa
> ...



With full knowledge, the Ni Dai Sennin probably won't even waste their time trying to use Gamarinshou; they'll stay on the defensive to counter Mugen Onsa and whatever Kabuto throws out.

Of course, Kabuto has a healing factor better than Orochimaru's and his ability to liquify makes him virtually unkillable, whereas J-man's injuries are going to accumulate over the course of the fight.

And if Muki Tensei forces Jiraiya to defend with an omnidirectional hair Jutsu, that gives Kabuto the perfect opening to disable him, the toads, and the other Sannin with Hakugeki.

Or Kabuto can just use the same tactic he pulled with Itachi to bisect Jiraiya by surprise.


*Spoiler*: __ 






Turrin said:


>






You know, you actually used to be a quality poster, Turrin; I didn't always agree with you, but at least you tried.

This is just sad.



Turrin said:


> Orochimaru would use Roshomon to change the trajectory of the Bijuudama. Just like Hashirama did w/ the Susano'o-Kurama Bijuudama:
> *Suiton*





Rocky said:


> HAHAHAHAHA
> 
> Orochimaru's gates were obliterated by Yonbi Naruto's water balloon-sized Bijuudama. It isn't doing *jack shit* to stop Bijuu-Sage Naruto's bombs that dwarf Bijuu.





Turrin said:


> Dude like what the fuck, it's the same Gates, so if Hashirama can do that shit w/ 5 so can Orochimaru





Rocky said:


> HAHAHAHAHA



I don't even know how to respond to this...

Orochimaru with a handful of Rashoumon can deflect a Bijuudama or even a giant Bijuudama from Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto?

I just...

What.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 15, 2014)

I also like how Jiraiya with Sage Mode can apparently throw around Naruto+the Kyuubi Bijuu with Sage Mode.

It's like watching a train wreck, except the train is an opinion.


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## Ersa (Mar 15, 2014)

BSM Naruto can kill the Sannin by stepping on them. Throw in 50 Sannins and all that will change is he may have to use Senpo: Bijuudama Renzaku. It's literally Godzilla vs 3 poodles.


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## 311998 (Mar 15, 2014)

Orochimaru's knowledge would be enough to destroy kabuto(his power derive from oorochimaru's dna)
hes a kid in front of the legendary sannins


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## Weapon (Mar 15, 2014)

5 Meters AND Kabuto's Cave? Please, Kabuto absolutely massacres the Sannin. If it's strictly the Cave and that distance, how is Orochimaru going to Rashōmon [For whatever reason people are bringing this up] and the Sannin will need their summons to even having a chance of winning High Difficulty. 

Kabuto has the advantage completely based on just those two underlined stipulations, it wouldn't even be fair if Edo Tensei was enabled. 

You have Jiraiya who gets destroyed one on one by SM Kabuto, Orochimaru who Kabuto knows more about than Orochimaru himself and then Tsunade who Kabuto outclasses completely in Medical-Nin and with Jugo cells SM Kabuto just completely eventually out-sustains them all because of this. That or he just kills them eventually.

He's already fought Tsunade and Jiraiya, he will automatically know how to win and what to expect he won't see anything new from them or anything that will be trump card like.

People under estimate Kabuto and think he's stupid or something.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> BSM Naruto can kill the Sannin by stepping on them. Throw in 50 Sannins and all that will change is he may have to use Senpo: Bijuudama Renzaku. It's literally Godzilla vs 3 poodles.



More like three flies vs. the windshield of an oncoming truck.


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## Trojan (Mar 15, 2014)

> Nikushimi said:
> 
> 
> > Mugen Onsa, and then kill them all at his leisure.
> ...


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## StickaStick (Mar 15, 2014)

Again, at 5m Kabuto rapes the Sannin. That's just the way it is.

I like the Sannin but they're being overrated as fuck in this thread. A good hand full of characters rolfstomp them not including those that could take it with mid-high difficulty.


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## Tarot (Mar 15, 2014)

If they're in a cave, can't Jiraiiya just transform it into a toad stomach? I'm always so confused why this forum's userbase is always so fixated on blitzing, when under fair circumstance, very few characters can actually use the speedblitzing tactic consistently. like Minato or Ay. Not to mention, speed feats are always incredibly inconsistent in every series.
Kakashi can keep up with Guy, and Guy went head to head against Juubidara, and Madara counterd Minato's FTG. Meaning Kakashi=Juubidara=Guy=>Minato(Instant teleprtation) or Juubito> Tobirama and Hashirama's reaction=> Old Hirzuen's body flickr> Sasuke=Jubito>Hashirama/Tobirama? or Sick Orochimaru= V2 jinchuriki> KCM Naruto> Ay? and Sai> Sasuke~V1Ay failed to blitz Deidara 
Seriously?
The main threat I see is Manda II once Kabuto decides to bust out of the cave.


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## Trojan (Mar 15, 2014)

yeah, he will rape them at 5m because all of sudden he will be able to attack all 3 of them at the same time, or attack one of them and goes the others and so on, because we all know that when Kabuto attack one of them the other two will just stay in their places watching him and wait for their turn. lol


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## Ersa (Mar 15, 2014)

Hakugeki + chakra scalpel ends Jiraiya instantly at 5m, Tsunade and Orochimaru get trapped in Senpo: Mugen Ousa, Tsunade gets swallowed up and Manda 2 eats Orochimaru.

People like SM Kabuto occupy the rift between top tiers and high tiers. The Sannin unfortunately don't compare.


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## Trojan (Mar 15, 2014)

or kabuto get his head kicked just like Human Path. Pain who's stronger than Kabuto even admitted that he wouldn't have won without his secret, then again it was stated had Oro been there, Jman wouldn't have died as well. And that's against someone who's stronger than Kabuto. Jman took a direct hit from 4tails Naruto and dealt with him in base, thinking Kabuto's attack is stronger than 4tails Naruto is just plain stupid. We also know that even if Oro and Tsunade were cut in half that is still not enough to take them down.


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## The Undying (Mar 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> *Hakugeki* + chakra scalpel ends Jiraiya *instantly* at 5m, Tsunade and Orochimaru get trapped in Senpo: Mugen Ousa, Tsunade gets swallowed up and Manda 2 eats Orochimaru.




Pretty sure Hakugeki isn't anywhere near instant, even at that distance.

Just saying.


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## Veracity (Mar 15, 2014)

Lol @ Kabuto blitzing anyone. Can so one link me to his Sannin blitzing movement feats ?


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## Magicbullet (Mar 15, 2014)

Going with Sannin for moderate difficulty. 
I don't see any significant difference between S1 and S2.


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## Mercurial (Mar 15, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Lol @ Kabuto blitzing anyone. Can so one link me to his Sannin blitzing movement feats ?



Blitzing Itachi thanks to a favourable distraction and dodging Susanoo arrows is tiers above the Sannin's showings in speed and reflexes.


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## Magicbullet (Mar 15, 2014)

lmao @ tiers


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## LostSelf (Mar 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Considering that Kishi does not consider Pain Rikudo to be able to beat a Jiraiya w/ full knowledge, I can't see Nagato beating all the Sannin, as even remotely something Kishi would have happen. I mean Nagato [if were talking Edo-Restored Nagato] is stronger than the 6 Paths, but it's not by a huge margin, that makes up for an additional 2 Sannin, and the x3 power upgrade that the Sannin are suppose to enjoy when fighting as a single unit.



With full knowledge and the stipulations of said fight. Jiraiya would've never been able to use frog song if Deva path were present. Nor hide if Nagato were present either. He made Nagato fodderize the superior RM Naruto and needed three shinobis superior to the Sannin as a team to overcome Chibaku Tensei and Nagato's defenses, taking in mind that Kabuto didn't even know about his sensing and all this was because Nagato was mostly stationary. I can't even imagine a mobile one. I see Kishi doing it, making Nagato beat them. I don't get the x3 power, though.



> Beyond that the Sannin have excellent counters to Nagato's Jutsu. All Three Sannin have a myriad of attacks that bypass HG-Realm, and w/ 3 of them there it's very easy for them to exploit the cool-down of Deva-Realm. Duel Vision via summons can easily be dealt w/ considering their knowledge of it from J-man, and that leaves Nagato w/ mobility issues and unable to evade a number of the Sannin's attacks. The power of all 3 Sannin combined can also probably bust CT, and i'm sure one of the Sannin would be smart enough to come to the same strategy that Itachi did [target the core]. Really CST is the only issue, but it seems to require charge time and the opens him up to attacks from the Sannin.



The Sannins will have to bypass the summons, the huge AoE of Nagato's attacks. He doesn't get useless like Deva with the five seconds interval, he has a plethora of jutsus in his arsenal to make up for that interval. Also, they have no way to overcome a serious Shinra Tensei from Nagato, more powerful than the one he used to fodderize the summons. CST doesn't need recharge time, i don't know where it was stated or shown. About CT, nothing in the Sannins arsenal equals a Bijuudama and FRS. Not even their combined effort.

And never mind if Nagato summons Gedo Mazo.
But the best i can do is a thead. Because this is Kabuto here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 15, 2014)

Hmm with full knowledge I think the sannin can pull this off. But it'll be a damn long battle.

Kabuto opens with hakugeki, Oro summons a snake and the snake swallows hakugeki, negating its effects.

Muki tensei seems like the most troublesome, but I think Rashomon can potentially stop it, at least bust out the cave and allow them to hide behind it or something.

Sound 5 arsenal can be dodged, and Oro's massive fuuton jutsu will completely negate Mugen Onsa. 
I think Jiraiya can get into sage mode as Oro and Tsunade delay Kabuto's assaults.

The only problem is, how the hell will they kill him. In between regen, liquification, snakelike evasiveness and oral rebirth, I don't see a way they can put him down. 

Trapping or outlasting him seem like their only choice here. Probably Toad song seals the deal.

Without full knowledge Kabuto'd beat them though, regardless of the scenario.



New Folder said:


> lol turrin.
> 
> but your effort will be in vain, Jman and the sannin in general are too underrated here for the sake of horrible
> characters to get wanked such as itachi.



Poor bastard has gone even madder since Kishi took that big dump on Minato.

there there


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Pain said Jiraiya certainly would've won the fight *that they just had* if he had more intel. That comment applies to only the circumstances of that fight.



"Most likely, we could never have defeated him if not for our secret... // I will say that much for you, old master."



> Pain has always cared about his village.


Show me one panel, that says Nagato cares about his village more than Jiriaya. 



> That doesn't mean he gave a damn about Jiraiya.[/QUOTE
> If your going to lie rocky, than I might as well start giving you the Niku treatment, because this is utter BS and you know it.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Turrin (Mar 15, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kabuto could always avoid being trapped in there in the first place, with full knowledge.


Hard to say w/o knowing how the Jutsu drags the Target in, whether the Sannin Modo J-man or the Sannin could or couldn't drag Kabuto in there. Was just throwing it out there as a possibility.



> With full knowledge, the Ni Dai Sennin probably won't even waste their time trying to use Gamarinshou; they'll stay on the defensive to counter Mugen Onsa and whatever Kabuto throws out.


In a Full-Knowledge Sannin Modo Jiriaya vs Sannin Modo Kabuto fight your probably correct and both parties would avoid their Sound-Based Techs knowing their useless. However in a fight against all of the Sannin the other 2 can run interference making the Song viable again.



> Of course, Kabuto has a healing factor better than Orochimaru's and his ability to liquify makes him virtually unkillable, whereas J-man's injuries are going to accumulate over the course of the fight.


You act as if I think Sannin Modo Jiriaya is going to win. Putting up a fight; yes. Win; probably not.



> And if Muki Tensei forces Jiraiya to defend with an omnidirectional hair Jutsu, that gives Kabuto the perfect opening to disable him, the toads, and the other Sannin with Hakugeki.


I don't see why Jiraiya defending w/ a Hair Jutsu prevents Fukasaku and Shima from using Techniques. Orochimaru can also use Fuuton.



> Or Kabuto can just use the same tactic he pulled with Itachi to bisect Jiraiya by surprise.


Probably not going to work w/ Full Knowledge against someone who has Sensing or access to Sensing via Fukasaku/Shima.



> You know, you actually used to be a quality poster, Turrin; I didn't always agree with you, but at least you tried.


I have a new policy. I try when the responses I get are not trolls, the person isn't being willfully disingenuous, or the person isn't giving me stupid lists of characters offering no support for their conclusions.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> With full knowledge and the stipulations of said fight. Jiraiya would've never been able to use frog song if Deva path were present.


Why? 



> Nor hide if Nagato were present either.


Why would Nagato be present? And actually he would since Gammagakure Jutsu counters Sensing. 



> He made Nagato fodderize the superior RM Naruto


KCM-Naruto had his chakra split like 14 different ways at the time and Kurama draining chakra way on-top of that. KCM-Naruto at his best would likely put up a much better fight than what we saw, and I don't think KCM-Naruto is as good as Sannin Modo Jiriaya anyway, as Sannin Modo > KCM, and Base-Jiriaya > Base-Naruto. 



> and needed three shinobis superior to the Sannin as a team to overcome Chibaku Tensei and Nagato's defenses, taking in mind that Kabuto didn't even know about his sensing and all this was because Nagato was mostly stationary.


Sannin Modo Jiriaya >= any of the individuals that were present. Orochimaru is better than heavily nerfed KCM-Naruto. Tsunade is inferior to all the individuals present, typically, but in a support/team-battle role she is easily just as valuable as any of the individuals present, if not more so. So yeah Sannin would actually be equivalent to the Team that was present against Nagato, perhaps even better, if their x3 increase when working in Tandem is to be believed. But even if you think they are weaker than that team, that doesn't say much, because that team steam-rolled Nagato once they started working together, so it doesn't take a fighting force as powerful as those 3 to beat Nagato in the first place.



> I can't even imagine a mobile one..


Why would Nagato be mobile?



> I don't get the x3 power, though.


According to Kishi when the Sannin fight together as a Team, their skills each increase thrice fold. My interpretation is that it's the same as what happens when Team-7 fights together, they have unique combos that they can produce which are excessively effective. For example Team-7's Kagatsuchi-FRS-Arrow-of-Death. 




> he Sannins will have to bypass the summons,


Base-Jiraiya alone has been shown to contend w/ Nagato's summons and Sannin Modo Jiriaya decimated them.



> the huge AoE of Nagato's attacks


Tsunade alone was able to defend against the largest AOE attack we've seen from Nagato in the form of CST, w/ Katsuya + Byakugo, and she defended and entire hidden village; here she only needs to defend herself and 2 other individuals.



> he doesn't get useless like Deva with the five seconds interval, he has a plethora of jutsus in his arsenal to make up for that interval.


All of which the Sannin have counters for.



> Also, they have no way to overcome a serious Shinra Tensei from Nagato, more powerful than the one he used to fodderize the summons.


Once again Tsunade alone countered CST.



> CST doesn't need recharge time, i don't know where it was stated or shown. .


Did you miss Deva-Realm being on cool-down for most of the Naruto battle?



> About CT, nothing in the Sannins arsenal equals a Bijuudama and FRS. Not even their combined effort.


If you wish to believe the combined might of the Sannin and their literal Army of Summons can not bust CT, that is up to you, we'll just have to agree to disagree.



> And never mind if Nagato summons Gedo Mazo.


Which Nagato do you have the Sannin fighting here, because it seems like your granting Nagato all the abilities of every Nagato incarnation and none of the weaknesses. 

Ether way GM was being beaten back by mostly physical attacks from Gai, KCM, Naruto, and Hachibi, The Sannin can easily recreate that force w/ their combined might.


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## Trojan (Mar 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Poor bastard has gone even madder since Kishi took that big dump on Minato.
> 
> there there



I don't even know what does Minato have to do with what I said!! You must be so butthurt, or perhaps do I need to buy you a red nose so you can work on a cirque? 

هه يال البلاهة


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## Veracity (Mar 15, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Blitzing Itachi thanks to a favourable distraction and dodging Susanoo arrows is tiers above the Sannin's showings in speed and reflexes.



Blitzing Itachi thanks to a distraction is already invalid lol, and dodging a Sussano arrow is basically a reaction feat. He moved like half a foot to dodge that shit. That is not even close to "tiers " above btw, and it doesn't push the notion that he can blitz anyone lol.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 15, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Now, Now, is not that so sweet?
> First of all, Oro has a wind jutsu to counter that jutsu, and so does Fukasaku. Not to mention
> Oro's knowledge about it and they actually know how to counter it. Yeah, itachi failed, he's a failure everyone knows that, but even shikmaru and Temari counter that jutsu for God's sake.



Problem: Orochimaru is eventually going to run out of chakra. Kabuto won't, and they can't kill him with Futon.



> Not really since in that case there are Tsunade and Oro with him to save him sometime. Not to mention it's not like Hashirama will use his Buddha right away. U_U



Tsunade and Orochimaru couldn't buy any time against Hashirama if he were serious about killing them; he wouldn't even need the Mokuton Buddha.



> again, just because the gap in power does exist, that does not mean the opponent won't be able to anything. Obito was stronger than everyone on the battlefield,  yet Minato, Naruto, Tobirama, and Sasuke kept up with him and landed a lot of attacks against him.
> 
> The same with guy being far inferior to current madara...etc that did not stop him from doing what he did. That can also be said about Hashirama, his raw power is insane, yet he got his ass handled to him in the First War ...etc



The problem is that those guys were only able to fight Juubito together and he was kinda jobbing/screwing around the whole time.

As for Gai, he got one-paneled by Madara and then Lee had to save him. We haven't seen what the 8th Gate can do yet, either.



Turrin said:


> In a Full-Knowledge Sannin Modo Jiriaya vs Sannin Modo Kabuto fight your probably correct and both parties would avoid their Sound-Based Techs knowing their useless. However in a fight against all of the Sannin the other 2 can run interference making the Song viable again.



If Gamarinshou is viable then Mugen Onsa is viable. And Gamarinshou can be heard for a while before it takes effect, which gives Kabuto a chance to use his Genjutsu.

Someone else brought up another good point, which is that Kabuto can apparently immunize himself to air vibrations by liquifying his body (as he did with Hakugeki); this may prevent Gamarinshou from affecting him at all.



> I don't see why Jiraiya defending w/ a Hair Jutsu prevents Fukasaku and Shima from using Techniques.



If Jiraiya is defending from all sides against Muki Tensei, the toad sages won't exactly have any openings. And if there _are_ openings...well, they get impaled.



> Orochimaru can also use Fuuton.



In that case, with full knowledge, Kabuto just has to disable Oro first. He can achieve this by restraining him with Kumo Nenkin or he can just block/deflect/redirect Oro's Fuuton with a Doton or Suiton.



> Probably not going to work w/ Full Knowledge against someone who has Sensing or access to Sensing via Fukasaku/Shima.



Didn't seem to stop Pain, who wasn't even hiding in a chakra-filled snake both times he ambushed Jiraiya (when he took J-man's arm and again when he crushed his throat). Their sensing isn't a passive ability, so it doesn't help unless they are already using it.



> I have a new policy. I try when the responses I get are not trolls, the person isn't being willfully disingenuous, or the person isn't giving me stupid lists of characters offering no support for their conclusions.



So then your claim that Sage Jiraiya can throw around Bijuu Sage Naruto is just sarcastic nonsense that we're free to disregard, right?

Same with Orochimaru deflecting Bijuudama with Rashoumon.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> "Most likely, we could never have defeated him if not for our secret... // I will say that much for you, old master."




That isn't even a fucking correct sentence.  You expect me to believe that is the most accurate translation?




> Show me one panel, that says Nagato cares about his village more than Jiriaya. That doesn't mean he gave a damn about Jiraiya.
> If your going to lie rocky, than I might as well start giving you the Niku treatment, because this is utter BS and you know it.




I was probably pissed last night.

Nagato cared about Jiraiya, but they had lost contact long ago. The Hidden Rain, however, was still a great part of Nagato's life, and I don't believe he would raze it down to simply kill Jiraiya. The village is supposedly more important than even family, as Minato explained to Kushina.




> This is utterly baseless. We saw a that Grey-Hair Nagato could fight when he was brought back as an Edo. So Obito was completely incapable of fighting, since he also used Pain-Rikudo? And when Nagato was fully prepared to fight KSM-Naruto he was lying?




Grey hair Nagato didn't do much actual fighting (his good feats come after he absorbed Bee's cloak), and he was an Edo....meaning illness & stamina were non-issues. His mobility is a rather large problem though; that's how he was beaten in the end.

The Six Paths of Pain have non of those problems, and they have a numbers advantage. 



> What are you talking about. Pain Rikudo is a technique and he was spamming the shit out of it w/ no ill effects. Only Village nuking CST and using CT after all the other shit he did caused him any problems what-so-ever, even still he was prepared to fight KSM-Naruto after all of this.




I'm not about to go read the entire fight again, but I could've sworn that every time they cut to Nagato, he was bleeding from the mouth.




> Most of this refers to the single combo they did at the end. The other times is simply Onoki weight-control combos, which I admit I forgot to mention.  But I would think the Sannin have much more effective combos than that, given the way Kishi has written about them.




Think as you like. We disagree, and we will continue to. The problem is that you operate on 100% hype for your basis. It's all "I think Kishi xxx based on the way he has hyped them," but they have almost no feats to support this. I agree that hype and portrayal are important, but so are actual displays of what they can do. If we're just guessing, what's the point of even arguing?




> So I guess a more rational stance is that Roshomon suddenly become more powerful in Hashirama's hands for no reason.




Don't use the word rational. The Rashomon Orochimaru displayed was absolutely ruined by the damn mini-dama of KN4. His gates get ran over by Naruto's, or outright blown to shreds. 




> I hope you are smart enough to see the difference between what I said and what your suggesting, I really do.




Fucking enlighten me.



> Smaller doesn't necessary mean weaker, especially when it's imbued w/ a Susano'o sword




The Susano'o sword adds nothing to the potency of the explosion, and Kurama's smaller Bijuudama are weaker than his (or his Jinchuriki's) larger ones. That's common sense and a clear pattern between Bijuu.

Orochimaru using Rashomon to stop BSM Naruto's max power Bijuudama when he barley stopped KN4's deserves nothing more than a "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA," and comes off as a complete and utter joke.




> Only if they are down for the entire time that Naruto charges a Bijuu Bomb, and can't recover enough to use nigh instant Jutsu like Yomi Numa and Kuchiyose. I was talking about him in his Avatar, and his Avatar is no different than the strength of 50% Kurama, which we saw a Sannin Modo user toss around w/ their strength


. 


The Sannin's techniques need hand seals, while Bijuudama does not. The charge time isn't large either; Naruto was shown forming the giant sphere in a panel (after the other Bijuu had already formed there's). Recovering from a huge shockwave will definitely take away any time they might of had to counterattack. 

The Sannin throwing around BSM Naruto makes my head hurt. Are you trying to troll me? Honestly. Not only is BM Naruto much faster & more reflexive by feats then 50% Kurama, he can also manipulate the chakra at will. He can use Chakra arms, create clones, rip apart the ground with Shunshin, and do many, many, many more things than 50% Kurama can do. And by the way, SM Naruto didn't throw the fox around. He feinted him with a clone and flanked him. When the fox was actually on guard, he was deflecting even Naruto's giant Rasengan's, having no trouble with his strength.

.....and you seem to forget that Naruto has a Bijuu-*SAGE MODE.*


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> If Gamarinshou is viable then Mugen Onsa is viable. And Gamarinshou can be heard for a while before it takes effect, which gives Kabuto a chance to use his Genjutsu.


Mugen Onsa isn't viable because it would be defended w/ Fuuton. We've been threw this; do I need to post the Temari-face-palm pick again.



> Someone else brought up another good point, which is that Kabuto can apparently immunize himself to air vibrations by liquifying his body (as he did with Hakugeki); this may prevent Gamarinshou from affecting him at all.


The catches whoever hears it in Genjutsu. Kabuto's ability doesn't prevent him from hearing the Song.



> If Jiraiya is defending from all sides against Muki Tensei, the toad sages won't exactly have any openings. And if there are openings...well, they get impaled.


It's not like the stalagmites from the cave are every-where, so I don't get why they couldn't create an opening. Beyond that I don't think Sannin Modo Jiraiya would even need to defend against Muki-Tensei; we did see a Sannin Modo user casually tank this w/ zero damage:
*here*



> In that case, with full knowledge, Kabuto just has to disable Oro first. He can achieve this by restraining him with Kumo Nenkin


Kumo-Nenkin gets casually Ksunagi'd



> or he can just block/deflect/redirect Oro's Fuuton with a Doton or Suiton


He could block Oro's Fuuton from hitting him, but it's still going to keep the sound waves away.



> Didn't seem to stop Pain, who wasn't even hiding in a chakra-filled snake both times he ambushed Jiraiya (when he took J-man's arm and again when he crushed his throat). Their sensing


I guess I forgot the part in the manga where Jiraiya had full knowledge against Pain



> isn't a passive ability, so it doesn't help unless they are already using it.


Repeat after me; F-U-L-L K-N-O-W-L-E-D-G-E



> So then your claim that Sage Jiraiya can throw around Bijuu Sage Naruto is just sarcastic nonsense that we're free to disregard, right?


You tell me. Is this sarcastic nonsense:




> Same with Orochimaru deflecting Bijuudama with Rashoumon.


Again, You tell me. Is this sarcastic nonsense:


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That isn't even a fucking correct sentence. :


What's incorrect about it?



> You expect me to believe that is the most accurate translation?


It's how C-net Translates Pain's statement. C-net is one of the best Translators of the Manga, but don't take my word for it. Look at what at what a very respected Naruto-Forms translator has to say about C-Net:



Gottheim said:


> I tend to recommend Cnet because he has a long history of well-phrased, reliable translations, and also happens to be a personal benchmark of mine. Him and ShounenSuki. .





> Nagato cared about Jiraiya, but they had lost contact long ago. The Hidden Rain, however, was still a great part of Nagato's life, and I don't believe he would raze it down to simply kill Jiraiya. The village is supposedly more important than even family, as Minato explained to Kushina.


Nagato still clearly cared for his teacher deeply despite him losing contact w/ him. Let's not forget how Naruto TNJ'd Nagato in the first place, using Jiraiya's book & words:


I don't see where it's indicated that Nagato cared about Amegakure, even remotely close to as much as he cared for Jiraiya. For Nagato it's always been about protecting his precious people above all else, and Jiraiya was one of them; perhaps not to the extent of Yahiko and Konan, but still. I mean even when Nagato was fighting Jiraiya in Amegakure he didn't seem to care whatsoever about causing collateral damage, and was more than willing to send Giant Boss Summons rampaging through the streets and even Konan who was more kind hearted than Nagato was willing to kill an Amegakure Shinobi who was working directly for them to get at Jiraiya. I simply can't imagine that if given the choice between being defeated and his ambitions being thwarted and nuking Amegakure w/ CST/CT that Nagato would choose the former. Additionally, I firmly believe that if Kishimoto actually wanted us to consider this as part of the reason why Pain-Rikudo couldn't defeat Jiriaya he would have indicated such, rather than putting the focuses solely on intel alone. 



> Grey hair Nagato didn't do much actual fighting


Yes he did. He showed he could use the 6 Paths abilities and he fought perfectly fine against Killer-B, KCM-Naruto, and Itachi, before being restored by B's chakra.



> and he was an Edo....meaning illness & stamina were non-issues.


If it was a non-issue than restoration would not have mattered. Clearly Nagato inherit all the weakness of his grey-haired self when brought back, which is why restoration was important in the first place. 

As for Stamina, clearly that is virtually a non-issue for living-Nagato as well, considering all the shit he did when he invaded Konoha and still was ready to keep fighting Naruto after-wards [or if you prefer still had enough juice left to use a massive scale Gedo-Rinnei-Tensei].



> The Six Paths of Pain have non of those problems, and they have a numbers advantage.


This distinction is pointless when Living-Nagato can use the Pain-Rikudo to defend himself anyway.



> I'm not about to go read the entire fight again, but I could've sworn that every time they cut to Nagato, he was bleeding from the mouth.


They only cut to Nagato when he used Chibaku-Tensei and the only other time Nagato's well being was commented on was when he used CST [& later Gedo-Rinnei-Tensei].



> Think as you like. We disagree, and we will continue to. The problem is that you operate on 100% hype for your basis. It's all "I think Kishi xxx based on the way he has hyped them," but they have almost no feats to support this. I agree that hype and portrayal are important, but so are actual displays of what they can do. If we're just guessing, what's the point of even arguing?


What am I suppose to go on other than hype/portrayal when we've never seen the Sannin fight together? Like I said, I could also dream up OP combos the Sannin could likely perform by combining their skills & their summon skills, but I'd rather not try and put my own strategical mind to work on the Sannin's abilities, as I don't feel as if that is totally fair. However if that's what you want than I will do it to show you how OP the Sannin could potentially be when combining their skill-sets. Beyond that there is nothing I can really do, because again Kishi hasn't shown how they fight together.



> Don't use the word rational. The Rashomon Orochimaru displayed was absolutely ruined by the damn mini-dama of KN4. His gates get ran over by Naruto's, or outright blown to shreds.


Dude they are the same Roshomon, so I don't get this idea that they are some-how different Roshomon. What we saw from Hashirama is a different application of the Roshomon. Orochimaru was using his Sanju Roshomon to outright block Naruto's Bijuudama, while Hashirama was using his Gojo Roshomon to change the trajectory of Kyuubi-Susano'o's Bijuudama, that combined with Hashirama using 2 more Roshomon is why we see a difference in how they performed. Nothing and I mean nothing indicates that Hashirama's Roshomon were some-how better than Orochimaru's.



> Fucking enlighten me.


Really dude? Well fine, if you want to play stupid, than here:

Hashirama and Orochimaru both were using the Technique Kuchiyose: Roshomon. Hashirama summoned more Roshomon, but it doesn't change anything in-terms of the technique, except the chakra cost. It's like when Jiraiya, Naruto, etc.... Summon Animals, they can summon as many as they want, it just depends on whether they have the chakra to do so. That's why Shima was able to summon Gammaken, Gammahiro, Gammabunta, Gammakichi, Naruto, and Fukasaku to Konoha, because numbers are only determined by amount of chakra which Shima has a shit-ton of, and therefore didn't have an issue summoning tons of entities at once.

In-fact the only reason the DB states for the increased difficulty of Kuchiyose: Sanju Roshomon vs Kuchiyose: Roshomon, is chakra consumption:

_"Summoning three "Rashoumon" in an instant, while just one consumes a massive amount of chakra... Being able to use this ultimate absolute defence just shows why Orochimaru was once called "Sannin"**"_

So basically all it takes to summon more Roshomon is more chakra. Again we know Orochimaru used Sanju Roshomon, while still having a good bit of chakra left and that was an Orochimaru whose body was failing. Therefore Orochimaru can easily summon out 5 Roshomon, heck I wouldn't be surprised if he could summon out 10 Roshomon; and while doing such might deplete his chakra supply to nothing, w/ Tsunade their to use medical jutsu on him that doesn't matter.



> The Susano'o sword adds nothing to the potency of the explosion,


They add to it's ability to pierce through things like Roshomon, yet the Roshomon still held up. After-all the issue isn't the explosion when Roshomon are used, it's whether the Bijuudama can blow through the Roshomon to explode on the target.



> and Kurama's smaller Bijuudama are weaker than his (or his Jinchuriki's) larger ones. That's common sense and a clear pattern between Bijuu.


I'm not sure it works that way. I mean if Nibi used the same size Bijuudama as Kyuubi would you think that the Bijuudama would cancel each others out or would Kyuubi's win?



> Orochimaru using Rashomon to stop BSM Naruto's max power Bijuudama when he barley stopped KN4's deserves nothing more than a "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA," and comes off as a complete and utter joke.


Again it's not stop, it's redirect, and I would have agreed with you until Hashirama demonstrated enough Roshomon can deflect incredibly powerful Bijuudama from Kyuubi-Susano'o. With that feat in mind one can't simply laugh off the idea that if Orochimaru summoned enough Roshomon that he could redirect very powerful Bijuu-dama.



> The Sannin's techniques need hand seals, while Bijuudama does not. The charge time isn't large either; Naruto was shown forming the giant sphere in a panel (after the other Bijuu had already formed there's). Recovering from a huge shockwave will definitely take away any time they might of had to counterattack.


Kuchiyose does not require hand-seals and happens at the speed of space-time. Yomi Numa only requires a single hand-seal. Bijuu-dama isn't forming and firing before that. 

Also once again I'll ask when has Naruto ever chakra-roared a shinobi of their feat and than followed up w/ a Bijuudama. It seems kind of OOC strategy for him to employ.


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2014)

> The Sannin throwing around BSM Naruto makes my head hurt. Are you trying to troll me? Honestly. Not only is BM Naruto much faster & more reflexive by feats then 50%


Listen I thought the idea was ridiculous too until Kishi showed Sannin Modo user throwing around 50%-Kurama. If you can convince me why 50% Kurama is different than BM's Aura, than I will gladly concede the point, as it seems ridiculous to me too, but considering that BM's Aura literally is a manifestation of 50% Kurama, I can't see this as something that could not possibly happen.



> Not only is BM Naruto much faster & more reflexive by feats then 50% Kurama


Dude we've never seen BM-Naruto with his Aura activated be faster than 50% Kurama. BM's Aura is literally the manifestation of 50% Kurama, so why would it be faster. BM-Naruto w/o the aura and using techs like Shunshin is, but again i'm strictly talking about the Aura.



> he can also manipulate the chakra at will


Okay and that just says that he can use the Aura as if it was 50%-Kurama by manipulating it. I don't see why that alters the Sannin's ability to throw the Aura-around.



> He can use Chakra arms, create clones, rip apart the ground with Shunshin, and do many, many, many more things than 50% Kurama can do.


So he's going to be using Chakra Arms + Clones + Shunshin + Bijuudama all at the same time. Naruto doesn't really fight that way. There are many times when Naruto is just using Kurama-Aura and it's during these times Sannin Modo J-man or Tsunade could throw him around. I'm not saying that those two could always do it w/o fail, but just that it's an option on the table which can be used depending on the circumstance.



> And by the way, SM Naruto didn't throw the fox around. He feinted him with a clone and flanked him. When the fox was actually on guard, he was deflecting even Naruto's giant Rasengan's, having no trouble with his strength.


I meant that he literally threw the fox around lol. 



> ....and you seem to forget that Naruto has a Bijuu-SAGE MODE.


Agreed, but we don't have much feats from Bijuu-Sage Mode, so there is nothing to really go on but hype/portrayal, which brings us to BSM hype/portrayal vs Sannin's hype as a combined team, in which I think the combined Sannin team has better hype at this point. No doubt when Naruto starts using BSM more, he'll surpass that though.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 16, 2014)

I have to say I enjoyed _Turrin's_ image-heavy responses. Anyway:

Manda 2 can't fit in the cave, and well, dang- that cave isn't too large for _Gamaguchi Shibari_ to immediately overlay and envelop. I really don't see why Jiraiya wouldn't open with it, as not only is the terrain amazing for it, he knows that Kabuto also hasn't a way to burst out of it with full knowledge.

Pocket-sized Katsuyus can counter _Mateki: Mugen Onsa_ since they and Tsunade can transfer Chakra telepathically, and if an idea of how to move and physical tenacity is how Itachi dealt with _Senpō: Hakugeki no Jutsu_ the Sannin should be able to deal with it while _Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin_ is active, or while Orochimaru's snakes are using their tongues to detect with either temperature or smell (and maybe even while the pocket Katsuyus are using their second pairs of antennas to smell whatever's going on while keeping their first pairs of antennas withdrawn). Jiraiya can activate _Hari Jizō_, and his teammates won't die to Kabuto's subsequent attacks regardless of whether or not Jiraiya is capable of also shielding them with his spiked hair (though I think he most likely can if his flexibility with _Ranjishigami_ is anything to go by).

Kidomaru's web can be physically ripped through, and Kusanagi can cut down _Sawarabi no Mai_. Attempting to swallow any of them would just get Kabuto exploded from the inside out half a second later via Aura Sphere, Mega Punch, or Transform, so yeah...I'm truly not seeing how Kabuto is supposed to actually manage to kill them all off and win; they have plenty of defensive options against his techniques, and he has no hope of outlasting them all.

The Legendary Three take this.




> Sannin aren't underrated, they're rated very fairly.



According to you, that is. You can count me among those who disagree.



> This isn't Part I where Kage level itself was legendary.



And I hope this isn't meant to imply that simply being Kage level holds as much weight to it as being one of the Sannin does, on paper or otherwise.



> By feats, the 5 Kage excrete all over the Sannin in combination possibilities



I'd be inclined to disagree. I could think of a plethora of combinations the Sannin could theoretically use with their showcased abilities off the top of my head:


Jiraiya could slip into either of Tsunade, Orochimaru or their summons' shadows with _Gamadaira ? Kageayatsuri no Jutsu_ to bide for Sage Mode and perhaps even _Gamarinshō_ under the additions of their regeneration and durability.
Orochimaru's snakes could take them all underground.
Orochimaru's _Fūton: Daitoppa_ could be combo'd with a Tsunade-amplified _Gamayudan_ of Jiraiya's (or even Gamabunta's) and turned into a massive makeshift _Goemon_ in the instant afterwards.
Shima's _Senpō: Fūton Sunabokori_ can easily substitute Mei's _Kirigakure no Jutsu_ for a while, and since it can easily can hide boss summons, Katsuyu could melt across the field under its cover and then the opposition is trapped. Can you say "hello, hasty mass _Shosen_ overdose"?
In addition to enhancing any of Jiraiya's Katons _Fūton: Daitoppa_ could propel Katsuyu's acid sprays, making them even harder to avoid, especially if Tsunade's amping those up as well.
In-shape Tsunade throwing or swinging around diamond-cutting Kusanagi would probably pierce through just about anything.

I didn't consider _Edo Tensei_ in any of that because I don't view that as part of Orochimaru's default power, but if any of them manage to subdue an enemy without killing them (ex; through _Ranjishigami_, or _Ranshinshō_) they could theoretically be sacrificed for the technique.

So their possibilities keep going as well, but they've also been together far longer, and even individually their summoning-heavy arsenals more or less operate on a big support system. I don't think the Five Kage's skills each increased thrice fold during that battle at all- especially not Mei's. Poor, poor Mei. But the Five Kage were coming together for the first time in?.all of ninja history, so yeah?

It does seem kind of weird that Tsunade would have to be counted for both teams, though. So idek anymore, but if we're specifically comparing by pitting the Sannin against the Five Kage I find the third bullet point to be the most interesting because _Daitoppa_ can be launched faster than Tsunade and Ohnoki finish charging the mega Jinton, and it could jam Jinton's formation while Jiraiya and (Sannin team) Tsunade complete their oil amplification and ignition in the meantime. It could also have the nifty side-effect of blowing off Ay's shroud, away Mei's mist, and ruining Gaara's sand simultaneously (once the oil is thrown in).


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I have to say I enjoyed _Turrin's_ image-heavy responses. Anyway:
> 
> I'd be inclined to disagree. I could think of a plethora of combinations the Sannin could theoretically use with their showcased abilities off the top of my head:
> 
> ...


Thanks Flaming Rain and to add onto this list, just for fun


Orochimaru, Gammabunta, and even Fukasaku/Shima [through fusion] seem to have the ability to chakra transferring [wouldn't be surprised if J-man and other Summons could do it as well]; so we could have others feeding Tsunade Chakra so that she could summon extremely large portions of Katsuya; 3/10th, 4/10th, 5/10th, who knows how large of a Katsuya could be conjured out. Than we have all the OP users for a massive Katsuya. 
Dropping it on-top of the enemy via food cart destroyer
Having it meld the entire battlefield, to be used for reverse-shosen 
Splitting up into thousands of mid-sized acid spitting Katsuya
Etc....

Jiriaya summoning out Toads for Tsunade to wield their massive weapons, with her great strength. Or giving the Toads weapons for them to be wielded by Boss-Sized snakes to wield with their great speed.
Orochimaru releasing WS-Venom into the air and Fukasaku/Shima utilizing Fuuton to blow that Venom at the enemy w/o them even being able to realize it. Orochimaru's venom could also be used to tip the other Sannin's weapons, making it so all they need to do is scratch their enemy
Orochimaru can fill the underground with Mandara no Jin, while Jiraiya covers above ground with Gama Yu Endan leaving the enemy no place to go. In-fact between Mandara no Jin, Yomi Numa, Gmma Yu Endan [or just the Oil component], mass-Katsuya, and Summoning: Toad Mouth Bind, the Sannin have ridiculous degree of battlefield control at their disposal, that opens up all sorts of nasty combos or ability to corner the enemy.
Jiraiya can be melded into Katsuya to be used as armor while he charges Frog Song. Or he could hop into the mouth of an incredible quick moving snake to fly around the battlefield [even underground] while charging Frog-Song. Of course this also applies to Sannin Modo as well.
Manda can quickly create a network of tunnels underneath the enemy, which Bunta [& Jiraiya] can than fill with Oil, than Jiraiya can ignite the Oil causing the ground beneath the enemy to explode. The flames can of course than be fed even more through the usage of Diatoppa & Fukasaku/Shima's Fuuton.
Tsunade can ride fast moving snakes to make up for her "low"-speed 
Toads can wield Roshomon gates as shields
Etc.... In-fact the chakra transferring shit makes a-lot of overclocking Jutsu possible besides Katsuya summoning, but I won't even get into that.

But this is why i'm not sure it's fair to apply our own strategical thought process on the Sannin, and why I try to stick to hype/portrayal when discussing how they would combo off each other in a team.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2014)

*Jiraiya was* - Adding more and more to himself.
*Jiraiya was* - He has the chakra/cells of several shinobi. 

It looks like you can make a case for Kabuto having the cells/abilities of a lot more people than just the Sound 5, Orochimaru and Taka. It would explain the Hashirama cells being pumped into Sasuke, and his knowledge on abilities such as the Rinnegan and the Raikage's Nukite. 

It is hard to say Kabuto wouldn't win. Plus for a guy holding back, he performed very well against a severely enhanced Itachi and an even more powerful EMS user. You could say by going all out, he could take the Sannin.


Let us not forget that Kabuto can control the land itself. That is worth considering.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Jiraiya was* - Adding more and more to himself.
> *Jiraiya was* - He has the chakra/cells of several shinobi.
> 
> It looks like you can make a case for Kabuto having the cells/abilities of a lot more people than just the Sound 5, Orochimaru and Taka. It would explain the Hashirama cells being pumped into Sasuke, and his knowledge on abilities such as the Rinnegan and the Raikage's Nukite.
> ...



Well yeah if Kabuto has integrate the DNA of every Edo-Tensei into himself, than he is unbeatable, but I don't think that is the case since he seemed to still want Edo-Itachi, so I think he only integrate DNA of people who he did not make into Edo-Tensei.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Well yeah if Kabuto has integrate the DNA of every Edo-Tensei into himself, than he is unbeatable, but I don't think that is the case since he seemed to still want Edo-Itachi, so I think he only integrate DNA of people who he did not make into Edo-Tensei.



He wanted Edo Itachi to have access to a strong zombie. Kabuto is the sort of character, at the time, who would rather stay behind the side lines. It was the same reason he planned to use Madara to dominate the war and why he was upset about losing Nagato.

Also he made Kimimaro into an Edo Tensei... he had Kimimaro's DNA.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Also he made Kimimaro into an Edo Tensei... he had Kimimaro's DNA.


Fair point, but I just seriously doubt that Kabuto is that strong. I mean if he had the DNA of all of those Edo-Tensei, even holding back he should have murdered Itachi & Sasuke. Also what was he doing simply using S5 abilities, when he could have been using Kages and Akatsuki member abilities. It just doesn't make that much sense to me. 

From my understanding Kabuto seems to need a-lot of the Shinobi's blood for his machine to work, I don't think many dead shinobi he had access to their blood. The S5 makes sense, since they worked for Orochimaru and he could have taken their blood, same thing with Taka, as he could have taken blood from them throughout the years. However the other Shinobi I don't think he'd have access to large quantities of their blood. The only other Shinobi I could see him having large quantities of their blood like that would be Yoroi, Misumi, Dosu, Zaku, and Kin, but I don't see much point in using them. Yamato is also possible, which could be where he got the Hashirama DNA from; so I wouldn't be surprised to see that. But none of those abilities are making him as all powerful as you seem to believe, even Yamato's.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Fair point, but I just seriously doubt that Kabuto is that strong. I mean if he had the DNA of all of those Edo-Tensei, even holding back he should have murdered Itachi & Sasuke. Also what was he doing simply using S5 abilities, when he could have been using Kages and Akatsuki member abilities. It just doesn't make that much sense to me.
> 
> From my understanding Kabuto seems to need a-lot of the Shinobi's blood for his machine to work, I don't think many dead shinobi he had access to their blood. The S5 makes sense, since they worked for Orochimaru and he could have taken their blood, same thing with Taka, as he could have taken blood from them throughout the years. However the other Shinobi I don't think he'd have access to large quantities of their blood. The only other Shinobi I could see him having large quantities of their blood like that would be Yoroi, Misumi, Dosu, Zaku, and Kin, but I don't see much point in using them. Yamato is also possible, which could be where he got the Hashirama DNA from; so I wouldn't be surprised to see that. But none of those abilities are making him as all powerful as you seem to believe, even Yamato's.



Tbh, I don't know how strong he is. But from the pages I've outlined it is enough reason to believe he's got more to offer than he showed against the Uchiha bros. To what extent he went to adding onto himself? I'm not entirely sure.

Though it wouldn't make sense for him to hide while having the all those powers... it wouldn't be the first time someone overpowered did this. For example Juubito with the Rinnegan and Edo Madara's (lack of) Rinnegan use with anything not Preta or Gedo stakes.

Of course I'm assuming that the amount of DNA required for Kabuto to add to himself is the same for what you'd need for Edo Tensei. Orochimaru showed that for the latter, you don't need that much.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tbh, I don't know how strong he is. But from the pages I've outlined it is enough reason to believe he's got more to offer than he showed against the Uchiha bros. To what extent he went to adding onto himself? I'm not entirely sure.


I feel like Kabuto adding S5, Taka, Orochi, Yamato, and perhaps some of those Fodder I mentioned, would already cover those statements.



> Though it wouldn't make sense for him to hide while having the all those powers... it wouldn't be the first time someone overpowered did this. For example Juubito with the Rinnegan and Edo Madara's (lack of) Rinnegan use with anything not Preta or Gedo stakes.


In the case of Obito, I think he lacked some of the Rinnegan abilities due to only having 1-eye. In the case of Madara he did use the Rinnegan abilities, but seemed to lack some from not being an Edo. 

In ether case I expect Kabuto to have more, but it not being to the degree that he has the abilities of all the Tensei, as that would be ridiculous. Pulling out Yamato and being able to use some Mokuton would make the most sense, for the abilities he hasn't shown yet.



> Of course I'm assuming that the amount of DNA required for Kabuto to add to himself is the same for what you'd need for Edo Tensei. Orochimaru showed that for the latter, you don't need that much.


And I think this assumption is faulty. Because we saw him transfuse a large amount of Oro's blood to get his powers. I doubt the DNA he used for many of the Tensei even contained blood, let alone the amount that Kabuto needed to absorb Oro:


*Spoiler*: __


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I feel like Kabuto adding S5, Taka, Orochi, Yamato, and perhaps some of those Fodder I mentioned, would already cover those statements.



It appears as if he went a step further. After implanting those DNA he said it wasn't enough; Orochimaru emphasized _so many people_. 



> In the case of Obito, I think he lacked some of the Rinnegan abilities due to only having 1-eye. In the case of Madara he did use the Rinnegan abilities, but seemed to lack some from not being an Edo.
> 
> In ether case I expect Kabuto to have more, but it not being to the degree that he has the abilities of all the Tensei, as that would be ridiculous. Pulling out Yamato and being able to use some Mokuton would make the most sense, for the abilities he hasn't shown yet.



He agreed with Kakashi when he said that Obito simply chose not to use them for chakra reasons.

Madara only used God Realm flight, Outer Path stakes and Preta Path. Nothing else, none of the jutsu which would have bailed him out of several situations. It appears that abilities such as Rinbo/Limbo and using Gedo Mazo were out of the picture; abilities that Nagato used were obviously not.

Like I said, I don't know how powerful he is. Much less if he has all his ET shinobi's abilities. I'm just assuming he has more than he's shown us, to what extent I'm unsure at this juncture. However it obviously needs to fit the criteria of Kabuto obtaining the chakra of "so many people" while "adding" to himself.



> And I think this assumption is faulty. Because we saw him transfuse a large amount of Oro's blood to get his powers. I doubt the DNA he used for many of the Tensei even contained blood, let alone the amount that Kabuto needed to absorb Oro:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



As I mentioned earlier:
_It appears as if he went a step further [after the transfusion.] After implanting those DNA he said it wasn't enough; Orochimaru emphasized so many people. 
_​
We don't know for sure if blood is the only DNA source needed; Orochimaru didn't seem to use blood to revive the four Hokage.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It appears as if he went a step further. After implanting those DNA he said it wasn't enough;


That was after implanting Orochimaru's DNA.



> Orochimaru emphasized _so many people_.


The People I listed is a-lot.



> He agreed with Kakashi when he said that Obito simply chose not to use them for chakra reasons.


I didn't say he couldn't use some of the Path Powers, and if that's what your going w/ than there is your answer for Obito. But no such statement is made for Kabuto.



> Madara only used God Realm flight, Outer Path stakes and Preta Path. Nothing else, none of the jutsu which would have bailed him out of several situations. It appears that abilities such as Rinbo/Limbo and using Gedo Mazo were out of the picture; abilities that Nagato used were obviously not.


Like what Jutsu.



> Like I said, I don't know how powerful he is. Much less if he has all his ET shinobi's abilities. I'm just assuming he has more than he's shown us, to what extent I'm unsure at this juncture. However it obviously needs to fit the criteria of Kabuto obtaining the chakra of "so many people" while "adding" to himself.


He already fits that bill.



> We don't know for sure if blood is the only DNA source needed; Orochimaru didn't seem to use blood to revive the four Hokage.


That's Edo-Tensei, not the fusion.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> That was after implanting Orochimaru's DNA.



The pages would suggest that's all the characters in the images before that were added too.



> The People I listed is a-lot.



That's a small quantity compared to what Orochimaru described. "So many" would generally mean more than five/six.



> I didn't say he couldn't use some of the Path Powers, and if that's what your going w/ than there is your answer for Obito. But no such statement is made for Kabuto.



Obito yes... Juubito is what I was really referring to (though I probably should've said "Juubito"). He used BT and then never another Rinnegan ability despite having the ability.

The statements made for Kabuto is he has so many people that he added to himself. We never saw a select few and had Kabuto say that's his limit. The fact he was holding back against the Uchiha bros would imply that he wouldn't use abilities that would completely destroy them. He wanted to keep Sasuke alive and unharmed.



> Like what Jutsu.



Nagato used all Six Paths as an Edo Tensei; it will be hard to say Madara was unable to.



> That's Edo-Tensei, not the fusion.



But that's implying Kabuto used a transfusion for every individual. He wouldn't be using Hashirama's cells (described as the real deal, not Tenzo's - a diluted copy it seems). 
Kabuto's complete set of abilities, namely how he kept adding to himself is still quite open ended. We can't simply say we've seen it all.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The pages would suggest that's all the characters in the images before that were added too.


What image are you referring to?



> That's a small quantity compared to what Orochimaru described. "So many" would generally mean more than five/six.


1- Orochimaru
2- Kimi
3- Sakon
4- Ukon
5- Tayuya
6- Jirobo
7- Kidomaru
8- Karin
9- Juugo
10- Suigetsu
*11- Yamato

That more than counts as so many, whether Yamato is part of the roster or not.



> Obito yes... Juubito is what I was really referring to (though I probably should've said "Juubito"). He used BT and then never another Rinnegan ability despite having the ability.


When did he even use BT? 

And the difference there is that Juubito and Juubidara were using other high-level shit. This would be in stark contrast with Kabuto, who would have been tossing around S5-level shit, when he really had Kage-level shit to use, which is nonsensical. 



> The statements made for Kabuto is he has so many people that he added to himself. We never saw a select few and had Kabuto say that's his limit. The fact he was holding back against the Uchiha bros would imply that he wouldn't use abilities that would completely destroy them. He wanted to keep Sasuke alive and unharmed.


There are plenty of abilities among the Edo-Tensei that are better than what Kabuto used, but wouldn't kill the Uchiha brothers.



> Nagato used all Six Paths as an Edo Tensei; it will be hard to say Madara was unable to.


I didn't say he was unable to. I asked when did you think he should have used them?



> *But that's implying Kabuto used a transfusion for every individual.* He wouldn't be using Hashirama's cells (described as the real deal, not Tenzo's - a diluted copy it seems).
> Kabuto's complete set of abilities, namely how he kept adding to himself is still quite open ended. We can't simply say we've seen it all.


Yes that's exactly what he did. And Kabuto having Hashirama's Cells, which he could have easily gotten from Yamato, since that's what was implanted in Yamato in the first place, really doesn't say much.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> What image are you referring to?



The ones prior the Kabuto transfusion.


> 1- Orochimaru
> 2- Kimi
> 3- Sakon
> 4- Ukon
> ...



Possibly, but it still isn't enough to exclude the possibility that he integrated some of his Edo shinobi within himself. 



> When did he even use BT?
> 
> And the difference there is that Juubito and Juubidara were using other high-level shit. This would be in stark contrast with Kabuto, who would have been tossing around S5-level shit, when he really had Kage-level shit to use, which is nonsensical.



Right after he kicked Minato and before he took Naruto and Sasuke's heads. 

Juubito and Juubidara neglected other high level things which would have given them an edge. Kabuto had someone he needed unharmed, that is a vital factor to consider.



> There are plenty of abilities among the Edo-Tensei that are better than what Kabuto used, but wouldn't kill the Uchiha brothers.



According to Kabuto, probably not. Or it could be the Rinne-amnesia type of thing going on with Kabuto.



> I didn't say he was unable to. I asked when did you think he should have used them?



When he got binded by the final combo by the Gokage is one vital time. A Shinra Tensei against Naruto and Lee would've helped tremendously. 



> Yes that's exactly what he did. And Kabuto having Hashirama's Cells, which he could have easily gotten from Yamato, since that's what was implanted in Yamato in the first place, really doesn't say much.



That's exactly what he did for a select sample. We don't know if he had to do precisely the same thing for all the others.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The ones prior the Kabuto transfusion.


Can you post a link?



> Possibly, but it still isn't enough to exclude the possibility that he integrated some of his Edo shinobi within himself.


But the statements aren't enough to exclude the possibility that he didn't integrate more, is my only point.



> Right after he kicked Minato and before he took Naruto and Sasuke's heads.


That was just his speed.



> Juubito and Juubidara neglected other high level things which would have given them an edge. Kabuto had someone he needed unharmed, that is a vital factor to consider.


How would it give him the edge, he was using some pretty OP-shit. 



> According to Kabuto, probably not. Or it could be the Rinne-amnesia type of thing going on with Kabuto.


When did Kabuto indicate such



> When he got binded by the final combo by the Gokage is one vital time. A Shinra Tensei against Naruto and Lee would've helped tremendously.


He countered that P-Susano'o, just fine. What instances against Naruto and Lee are you referring to?



> That's exactly what he did for a select sample. We don't know if he had to do precisely the same thing for all the others.


Why would he transfuse all that blood if he didn't need to?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Can you post a link?



*Jiraiya was*



> But the statements aren't enough to exclude the possibility that he didn't integrate more, is my only point.



I'm saying if we weren't meant to consider that he had more, Kishimoto would've used language which would've been more indicative as he tends to do. He left this open ended.



> That was just his speed.



There was clear emphasis on the Rinnegan eye.



> How would it give him the edge, he was using some pretty OP-shit.



A very powerful Shinra Tensei would've helped with the clash with Naruto and Sasuke; Minato and Naruto. The Preta Path would have been more than helpful. 



> When did Kabuto indicate such



This is assuming he would have anything else other than what he showed, which would've left Sasuke unharmed. I'm saying he purposely used things that wouldn't harm Sasuke.



> He countered that P-Susano'o, just fine. What instances against Naruto and Lee are you referring to?



He chose to use his strongest ability as Edo Madara, when a less powerful variant of ST would have done the job. 

Remember when Lee kicked Madara in half?



> Why would he transfuse all that blood if he didn't need to?



That would be the only means a regular human Kabuto would have to obtaining extra power. Now an abnormal Kabuto isn't necessarily subject to such constraints.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Jiraiya was*


I see what your saying, maybe he could have a bunch of those nameless fodder too, but is that is a far cry from having all the Edo Tensei he summoned abilities. I mean the panel also implies S4 were the best of those shinobi.



> There was clear emphasis on the Rinnegan eye.


Probably because he was using Rinnegan to control those black orbs. Though I suppose it's possible.



> A very powerful Shinra Tensei would've helped with the clash with Naruto and Sasuke; Minato and Naruto. The Preta Path would have been more than helpful.


Can I get a scan? To know the specific instance your talking about. But w/ that aside there are a-lot of instances where Shinobi don't use their techniques to the full scope of their abilities, however that's different than using an entirely low-level set of techniques, when you have vastly more high-level ones.



> This is assuming he would have anything else other than what he showed, which would've left Sasuke unharmed. I'm saying he purposely used things that wouldn't harm Sasuke.


But why couldn't he use Akatsuki Members or Kages techniques that would leave Sasuke unharmed?



> He chose to use his strongest ability as Edo Madara, when a less powerful variant of ST would have done the job.


He wanted to crush the Gokage's spirit.



> Remember when Lee kicked Madara in half?


Yeah, but that didn't do anything to him, due to being an Edo.



> That would be the only means a regular human Kabuto would have to obtaining extra power. Now an abnormal Kabuto isn't necessarily subject to such constraints.


But we saw in every instance this blood-transfusion taking place, so it seems strange that suddenly the author would want us to assume Kabuto can do it w/o that.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Madara and Obito are Juubi Jins now, hence why I did count them. Maybe you could also make an argument for White-Fang and Prime-Hanzo, if you believe their hype; forgot about them, but they are all hype anyway.



Tell me again how the Sannin can stand up to Tailed Beast Mode Naruto?

Seriously? How in the flying fuck are the Sannin even remotely posing a threat to such a powerhouse? I'm interested in your 'arguments', or lack thereof.



> I guarantee you that if Kishimoto was writing the battle none of the others would win.



Do you think anyone here gives a shit what you arbitrarily 'guarantee'? We're looking objectively at feats, not speculative horseshit.



> Kishi compared Team 7 to the Sannin when they were Byakugo-Sakura, KCM-Naruto, and EMS-Sasuke, that's how strong Team 7 had to become to be consider = to the Sannin by Kishimoto.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Are you fucking serious? So showing a mirror of Team 7 to the Sannin, which would only reflect how similarly they co-operate with each other as a team and with the exact same choice of summons, means Kishimoto was trying to depict them as equal?

Are you off your fucking rocker?

Were you living under a rock when Sage Naruto demonstrated both the hype and feats to absolutely shit on Sage Jiraiya all the way back in the Pain Arc? 



> The Sannin were suppose to be *nigh unbeatable* and that was back in the day when they fought as a Team and they have become even stronger since then.



By who, exactly?



> _"During fights, their skills would increase thrice fold and create stories of great battlefield deeds. Especially, places of battle where the three fought together were their own stage. Stories of their battlefield deeds have evolved into legends. "_



'blah blah blah they were so renowned back in the day'

Means fuck all when we're talking fighters who shit nuclear explosions out of their asses like Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto and Tailed Beast Mode Naruto.



> This is because Sannin have perfect combination Jutsu and abilities to perfectly compliment each other. It's like when we saw Team 7 fight after being compared to the Sannin, there abilities when fighting together increased astronomically, because their team-work was so effective.



I would really love for you to fabricate a scenario for the Sannin that overcomes:

Tailed Beast Mode Naruto leaping back a kilometer and firing a single Tailed Beast Bomb to end the entire fight.

Good fucking heavens, I return to the NBD and see proverbial dogshit being thrown around by one of the section's consistently nominated 'Members of the Month'. It seems to be based more on eloquence and dedication on terrible fucking arguments rather than actual skill in debate.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

@ATastyMuffin

Dude you need to chillax. Did I offend you or something, by saying a group of fictional characters stands a chance at defeating another fictional character. Don't make me, put you on the Nikushimi-list where I just give you joke responses lol. But before we get to that, i'll try and broach a civil/logical conversation first, and present you the scenarios in which I think the Sannin can win:

To discuss how the Sannin could beat BM-Naruto we first need to discuss what Jutsu would actually be up to the task. In my opinion there there are only a couple ways the Sannin could actually hope to bring down the beast:

1- Poison
2- Frog-Song 
3- Possessing Naruto's Shadow & controlling him 
4- Reverse Shosen
5- Exploiting Naruto's Seal via Minato's-Key or 5-Elements-Seal. 

*- Some Crazy level of Katsuya

All of these methods [except *] by-pass the need to actually over-power BM-Naruto, which is good because in almost any scenario the Sannin are going to be out-gunned in terms of raw-might and even long term endurance. So by-passing a direct confrontation and traditional means of victory is key to them standing a chance in this fight. With that said let me address each method:

Method-1:
Naruto does not have knowledge of WSM-Venom, apparently it can't be detected by Sharingan, and even effected someone like Sasuke who has a significant amount of antibodies built up to protect him from poisoning; in contrast to this Naruto was KO'd by Shizune's poison. It's also air-born so no amount of defenses are going to really protect Naruto from it. The condition to win with this is of course the Sannin holding out until the venom takes effect. Orochimaru can enter WSM rather quickly and drawing blood from him to release the venom is accomplished easy enough, so that is all a nigh instant process and they could even go deep underground, hide behind a barrier space, such as Toad Gourd Barrier-Seal, etc...until this part of the preparation is completely. However It did take some time for the venom to begin effecting Sasuke, so really that is the Sannin's window where they need to stay afloat in the match. BM-Naruto is strong, but to say it's absolutely impossible for the Sannin to hold out for that period of time against him is doing a large disservice to the Sannin. Also to bring it back to the Shizune example, Tsunade could also brew poison [hers being undetectable to even a ninja as experienced as Jiriaya], and apply that to a Kunai or some weapon, which I don't think it's impossible that if a match between BM-Naruto and the Sannin was played out 100 to 1,000 times Naruto would never end up picking up said weapon and getting the poison on him. With that said it is of course understanable if one believes Tsunade doesn't always keep such poisons on hand, and this would require prior-prep, but it's still something that should be taken not off as a possibility. Furthermore in the case of both of these possibilities, BM-Naruto may even kill off all the Sannin, before the poison takes effect, yet still ultimately fall to the poison, ending the match in a draw; so that is something that should also be considered as well. So that is one method that I do not consider impossible.

Method- 2
Frog-Song can really bring the best Shinobi in the manga to there knees, as once you ensnared it stops the mind from functioning and makes all action impossible. Furthermore, unlike other Genjutsu, which the Partner-Method might foil, due to it's AOE, and the fact that anyone who hears it falls into it's spell, makes it retain it's danger to even a perfect Jinchuuriki like Naruto, as Kurama could still hear the song, becoming trapped and unable to aid Naruto. Much of the prior prep to this song, can be achieved without too much issue, with the Sannin escaping deep underground, hide behind a barrier space, such as Toad Gourd Barrier-Seal, etc... aided further if location beneficial to the Sannin. Anyway, using one of these methods Jiraiya could safely enter Sennin Modo and Fukasaku/Shima could prep most of the Song. So here the window for the Sannin's victory would be holding out long enough for the Song to take effect; doesn't take very long mind you. Again I believe it would be a disservice to the Sannin to believe there is no possible way they could hold out that long. Heck even if Orochimaru and Tsunade straight up die in the process, so long as Jiraiya/Fukasaku/Shima remain alive, the win would still be within the Sannin's grasp.

Method- 3: 

This method is one that takes a bit of reaching, i'll fully cop to that, but It's still worth taking note of. As we know Jiriaya can become one with a person's shadow and take full possession of their faculties. Now it's also common-sense that Naruto in BM -- at least when his Aura is up -- casts an very large shadow. This gives Jiraiya a very big area in which he can target with his Jutsu, and ultimately makes the win condition of the Sannin using this method more feasible, as they don't have to pin down a relatively small fast moving shadow, that Shinobi normally possess. Now of course getting close to BM-Naruto, even his shadow is somewhat suicidal, but -- and here's where some reaching comes into play, though not so much that it makes it implausible imo -- if Jiraiya can use his Jutsu to first enter Manda's shadow, the fast moving snake could position it's shadow so it touches BM-Naruto's shadow, that way Jiriaya could take control of Naruto's shadow quite quickly and without putting himself in any-real danger [This could also be done w/ other Boss-Summons or Yamata no Orochi, a-lot of options here really]. Of course the win condition here would be if the Sannin could create a good divert BM-Naruto's attention away long enough for the rather speedy combo to be pulled off. Again I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that the Sannin could indeed pull of such a diversion, while holding out for that brief period of time.

Method- 4:

Using Katsuya so Tsunade can channel the instant coma causing reverse shosen through her. Considering Katsuya can transform into thousands of smaller sized Katsuya or meld across a large portion of the battlefield, the win condition here would be for the Sannin  to get Naruto to touch a Katsuya. This would ether occur by Tsunade doing it unaware or for the Sannin to force Naruto to walk over Katsuya melded to the ground. The former is something that could happen during the course of any match w/ the Sannin, and if we played out the match 100 times, I doubt every time Naruto would avoid touching a Katsuya by mistake, when he has no knowledge of reverse-shosen. The second option is more tangible, but more difficult, as forcing BM-Naruto anywhere is tough. However the Sannin do have means to do it. Jiraiya could cover other areas of the field with Yomi Numa prompting BM-Naruto to transverse the melded area instead of having to deal w/ the swamp. Similar things could be done w/ Orochimaru's Snakes, Bunta's Oil, etc... Than there are also LOS blockers like Senpo: Dust Cloud, which could obscure Naruto vision an allow Katsuya to meld on the ground near him or him to stumble over the ground that Katsuya has melded on-to. Than we have the fact that Sennin Modo Naruto was able to pick up and hurl 50% Kurama, so Sennin Modo J-man, if Naruto is in Aura form could pick him up and hurl him towards the area Katsuya has melded on. KB could be used to lure him there, etc... So again I don't think it's impossible that the Sannin could hold out long enough to lure BM-Naruto into touching a Katsuya.

Method - 5

This relies on ether Orochimaru or Jiriaya being able to touch the seal on Naruto's stomach. While Naruto has his Aura activated this will probably be close to impossible, but when Naruto is fighting in human form it's possible that the Sannin could pull this off. Orochimaru could outright have his head blown off and than use this as a chance to slap the 5-Elements seal on Naruto. Jiraiya could cloak the battlefield with a Smoke-Screen and get the one touch he needs that way [*note - won't work if he has SM activated]. Senpo: Frog-Call can used to stun Naruto for the briefest of instances so that they could slap the Fuuinjutsu on him. Yomi Numa and Toad Stomach could also slow him down for the brief instances necessary. Coming from bellow ground via Doton, Jiraiya hiding in one of the Sannin's shadows and popping up at the last second to catch Naruto off-guard, Etc... I don't think it's outlandish the Sannin can pull a win off this way.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

Defense: Anyway when it comes to how the Sannin can hold out, defensively speaking. 

- Something like Food-Cart Destroy should still be able to hold down BM-Naruto [in Aura-Form] for a certain period of time considering Food-Cart Destroyer enabled Gammabunta to hold down 100%-Kurama for a certain period of time while the Fourth-Hokage charged his Jutsu. To frequent usage of Food-Cart Destroy would aid the Sannin immensely in holding back BM-Naruto

- Roshomon-Gates are also extremely effective here. We saw Hashirama utilize 5 Roshomon to deflect Kyuubi-Susano'o's Bijuudama, so if Orochimaru summons out enough Roshomon he should be able to deflect BM-Naruto's Bijuudama and protect the slow down BM-Naruto a certain extent. Utilizing lots of Roshomon would typically quickly tire out Orochimaru, but w/ Tsunade here that is going to be a non-issue, and he can probably pull out 6,7,8, or perhaps even more Gates with Tsunade there to restore him. 

- Techniques like Senpo-Frog-Call, Yomi-Numa, Deep-Fryer, Toad Stomach, etc.... won't do stall Naruto for long, they will stale him out a bit, and give the other Sannin openings to utilize other techniques or escape.

- Hiding always works well. Doton is especially the Sannin's friend in this match as moving high speeds undeground is the safest place for  the Sannin, aside for perhaps entering into a Barrier Space like in Toad Gourd or Gamagakure no Jutsu. Camouflage jutsu like leech-all-creation, Toad Shop, Jiriaya's Toad-Shadow Tech [also doubles as a solid defense by becoming an intangible shadow], etc... are all very useful here to stay out of BM-Naruto's way. Smoke-Screens and LOS blockers, also would work. Of course some of these loose their effectiveness if Naruto utilizes Sennin Modo's sensing, but that is situation based, as Naruto does not always have Sennin Modo activated.

- The Toads giant leaps and the snakes incredible speed could also aid in keeping distance between the Sannin and BM-Naruto

- Finally we have the Katsuya defense combined with Byakugo. Considering Katsuya allowed even fodder to survive CST, we can expect this will defend against pretty much anything that BM-Naruto can dish out save some of the more ridiculous Bijuudama that he can throw around, so this is also key in the Sannin's survivability throughout the match.

And to expand on the * point a bit now, Orochimaru, Bunta, Fukasaku/Shima, and wouldn't be surprised if Jiraiya & other Summons can chakra share, therefore they can boost Tsunade's chakra levels, and potentially allow her to pull out a massive Katsuya. If something like that was pulled out I could potentially see a massive enough Katsuya if not contesting BM-Naruto in strength certainly slowing him down, and would be useful in completing many of the previously mentioned methods the Sannin have available to them to win.

Again whether the Sannin opt for these specific combos or not, we don't know, and probably will never know w/o seeing them fight together, but the hype/portrayal is certain there and they have the potential. So I do not rule out their ability to win against BM-Naruto. Even if you still disagree after-all of that, hopefully this post can at least show you were i'm coming from and i'm not just half-cocked wanking the Sannin for no reason. Anyway, if you respond to this than great, but don't expect i'll go point for point with you as this took a-lot of time to write out and covers a-lot of ground, but yeah, there it is...


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 16, 2014)

Edo Tensei is the only way they're beating BSM Naruto, and that victory is *solely* due to Hashirama's power.


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## Psycho Master (Mar 17, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kabuto blitzes.
> 
> A lot of people can stomp the Sannin:
> 
> ...



These are the only people on your list who can probably beat all 3 sannin fighting together (with some basic restrictions like no Edo Tensai).


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## Batman4Life (Mar 18, 2014)

Kabuto gets murdered by the 3 sannin. MS Sasuke wouldve beat him without Itachi's help if he was actually trying to kill him and not stop the edo tensei


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## Remsengan (Mar 18, 2014)

Kabuto likely takes Scenario 1 with a speed blitz on Jman.  Kabuto can likely take out the other 2.

Kabuto still erks out a win in Scenario 2, but the Sannin have a  much better chance if Jman has SM speeds.

Kabuto is like a better version of the Sannin combined.  SM + Snake Tech.+ Healing all combined in a such a way that he can use them simultaneously with ease.  Even the Sannin at their best teamwork can't coordinate their jutsu as opposed to Kabuto who can essentially perform the same feats with ease.  Worse yet, he has the jutsu of the Sound Five, disabling techs. and Uzamaki and Hozuki abilities.  

The Sannin have advantages too, but not nearly as daunting.  They might be out jutsu'd, but with 3 people it's much easier to set up flanking strategies.  However flanking doesn't help much if they have trouble landing a KO considering Kabuto's healing, sensing, reactions and durability. They also have Ma+Pa and a strength advantage, but Orochimaru doesn't bring much to the table that Kabuto doesn't have better variants of, and sadly the rest simply isn't enough to deal with him, but it's a lot better then the first Scenario.

If the battle was outdoors where Summons could come into play, I would handily give this to the Sannin.  Otherwise they're outclassed.


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