# Itachi vs Tsunade



## Pocalypse (Nov 16, 2015)

*Location*: Atop the Hokage Mountain
*Distance:* 50M
*Knowledge:* Full
*Restrictions:* None for Tsunade, Genjutsu + Tsukiyomi + Koto + Izanami for Itachi
*Conditions:* Itachi can only use Susano'o if Tsunade summons Katsuyu

How does this go?


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2015)

With full knowledge, Itachi wins via an Amaterasu to the face. Katsuyu is just sealed by Totsuka. If Amaterasu was restricted I think it would be more of an even battle. Tsunade's resilient and skilled but I don't think she can touch Itachi, _especially_ considering Itachi's Bunshin trickery. If Amaterasu was restricted Itachi would find it a hell of a lot harder to kill Tsunade, the only option would really be decapitation and that's not something that's easy to pull off. Especially since Itachi doesn't have any swords, the only thing he has in terms of blades is kunai.


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## Pocalypse (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachі said:


> With full knowledge, Itachi wins via an Amaterasu to the face. Katsuyu is just sealed by Totsuka. If Amaterasu was restricted I think it would be more of an even battle. Tsunade's resilient and skilled but I don't think she can touch Itachi, _especially_ considering Itachi's Bunshin trickery. If Amaterasu was restricted Itachi would find it a hell of a lot harder to kill Tsunade, the only option would really be decapitation and that's not something that's easy to pull off. Especially since Itachi doesn't have any swords, the only thing he has in terms of blades is kunai.



If I restricted Amaterasu then that would pretty much be base Itachi without Genjutsu AND MS against a Kage level opponent. Kinda would be a dick move if I did that 

I restricted Genjutsu to stop "Itachi one-shots with Genjutsu" and stuff and Susano'o's only available if Tsunade summons Katsuyu.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> If I restricted Amaterasu then that would pretty much be base Itachi without Genjutsu AND MS against a Kage level opponent. Kinda would be a dick move if I did that
> 
> I restricted Genjutsu to stop "Itachi one-shots with Genjutsu" and stuff and Susano'o's only available if Tsunade summons Katsuyu.



Yes, but I do think allowing Amaterasu is a bit unfair since Itachi can attack Tsunade from a distance cleanly, Tsunade has to get up close to actually do anything. Even if she is Kage level, they're both different types of opponents. Itachi's more about skill and the way he uses techniques, Tsunade's more about brute strength, she's limited when it's 1v1. Without MS, Itachi's still a decent opponent. Don't get me wrong, Tsunade isn't stupid but she doesn't have much flexibility to her arsenal. 

Can Itachi use Susano'o in general against Tsunade or can he only use it to seal Katsuyu?


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## Ghost (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachi doesn't need MS to beat Tsunade.


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## Pocalypse (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Yes, but I do think allowing Amaterasu is a bit unfair since Itachi can attack Tsunade from a distance cleanly, Tsunade has to get up close to actually do anything. Even if she is Kage level, they're both different types of opponents. Itachi's more about skill and the way he uses techniques, Tsunade's more about brute strength, she's limited when it's 1v1. Don't get me wrong, Tsunade isn't stupid but she doesn't have much flexibility to her arsenal.
> 
> Can Itachi use Susano'o in general against Tsunade or can he only use it to seal Katsuyu?



He can only summon Susano'o if she summons Katsuyu. So if she never summons it then Itachi doesn't get to use Susano'o, he'll just be fighting with his base abilities and Amaterasu.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> He can only summon Susano'o if she summons Katsuyu. So if she never summons it then Itachi doesn't get to use Susano'o, he'll just be fighting with his base abilities and Amaterasu.



Yeah but I mean, can Itachi use Susano'o against Tsunade as well or can he only use it against Katsuyu?


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## Pocalypse (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Yeah but I mean, can Itachi use Susano'o against Tsunade as well or can he only use it against Katsuyu?



Oh yeah he can use it against both, obviously lol


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## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

The Totsuka would just split Katsuyu so it couldn't seal her, and it'd take multiple shots of Amaterasu's to beat her since she can split off the ignited parts (and Tsunade can summon more of it).

Itachi can get to Tsunade herself eventually and then win, but he'd have expended a lot of Chakra by the time he did it.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The Totsuka would just split Katsuyu so it couldn't seal her, and it'd take multiple shots of Amaterasu's to beat her since she can split off the ignited parts (and Tsunade can summon more of it).
> 
> Itachi can get to Tsunade herself eventually, but he'd have expended a lot of Chakra by the time he did it.



What do you mean? If Itachi stabbed Katsuyu in the middle, wouldn't it just suck up the rest of her like it did to Orochimaru? I don't think that Katsuyu would be able to actually do anything after she got pierced, her only option would be to split before the Totsuka gets her. Orochimaru's a freak and he wasn't able to barf himself out.


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## Mercurial (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachi literally lol diffs Tsunade, whatever restriction you put on Itachi doesn't matter.


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2015)

I think it's funny that the stuff opening restricted has zero relevance in the fight anyway. Tsunade canonically healed Tsukuyomi so that's useless against her. Itachi never even had Koto at his disposal in battle. Izanami won't work on some like Tsunade to begin with. And lesser Genjutsu can only set her up to be hit by attacks that she would heal through anyway. 

Tsunade vs Itachi has always come down to how she would handle Totsuka-Sword and Amaterasu. As far as Amaterasu goes I've always believed that the result would probably end up being Tsunade removing the effected area with chakra scalpel ala Raikage and regenerating from the damage, rather than being outright defeated by it. Totsuka is a much bigger issue and I don't see a realistic IC counter for it from Tsunade, and that's where I likely see her loosing most of the time to Itachi, assuming she has competitive Byakugo supplies, as otherwise she'd loose sooner by running out of chakra to heal herself from Itachi's attacks.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 16, 2015)

Susanoo is smaller than Aoda's head. Aoda is roughly the same size as Katsuyu. I dont see Totsuka hitting Tsunade when shes on top of Katsuyu. Both Tsunade (sozo saisei/byakugo) and Katsuyu (splitting) can deal with Amaterasu. Yata Mirror is a problem but if Katsuyu belly flops on Susanoo, Tsunade can jump down and get behind susanoo and rip through it with a chakra enhanced punch and Punch/Ranshinsho Itachi in the back and kill him


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 16, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Itachi doesn't need MS to beat Tsunade.



He can barely beat her even with MS.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> As far as Amaterasu goes I've always believed that the result would probably end up being Tsunade removing the effected area with chakra scalpel ala Raikage and regenerating from the damage, rather than being outright defeated by it.



With full knowledge Itachi wouldn't allow that to happen. He would either Amaterasu Tsunade's face or Amaterasu her whole body, I believe.


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachі said:


> With full knowledge Itachi wouldn't allow that to happen. He would either Amaterasu Tsunade's face or Amaterasu her whole body, I believe.


Itachi can't Amaterasu someones whole body, only the area he's looking at; so her chest, which she can cut off with a chakra scalpel and regenerate; this is the one who survived being cut in half for like an hour. As far as targeting Tsunade's head goes, Itachi has never IC done something like that before and nether has Sasuke, so I don't think it's IC to use Amaterasu this way for whatever reason. Just like how Tsunade could technically defeat Itachi by just stalling out hiding in Katsuyas until Itachi exhausts himself, but I don't find that IC ether.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachі said:


> What do you mean? If Itachi stabbed Katsuyu in the middle, wouldn't it just suck up the rest of her like it did to Orochimaru? I don't think that Katsuyu would be able to actually do anything after she got pierced, her only option would be to split before the Totsuka gets her. Orochimaru's a freak and he wasn't able to barf himself out.



It took a couple seconds for Orochimaru to feel the effects.

Katsuyu doesn't have to do anything. She volunteered to go through Mabui's Tensō no Jutsu because she said she could survive "_being split into pieces_". It wasn't about doing it herself, the _trauma of the transfer would have split her_. She would split apart upon the Totsuka stabbing her- effectively avoiding the sealing effect.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachi oneshots with Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu or Totsuka.

You have to restrict all 3 of them for Itachi not to oneshot this.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2015)

At 50m, Itachi isn't stopping Tsunade with Genjutsu before she gets Katsuyu on the field, and Genjutsu is restricted anyway (along with anything else that could be a real threat to Tsunade). But that means Itachi gets to use Susano'o (as per the conditions), so he does quickly overtake and seal her with the Totsuka Blade. Katsuyu desummons once Tsunade is out of commission.


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Itachi can't Amaterasu someones whole body, only the area he's looking at; so her chest, which she can cut off with a chakra scalpel and regenerate; this is the one who survived being cut in half for like an hour. As far as targeting Tsunade's head goes, Itachi has never IC done something like that before and nether has Sasuke, so I don't think it's IC to use Amaterasu this way for whatever reason. Just like how Tsunade could technically defeat Itachi by just stalling out hiding in Katsuyas until Itachi exhausts himself, but I don't find that IC ether.



But he could use multiple Amaterasu all over her body. Itachi has never been up against Tsunade though, here he has full knowledge and would know that a standard Amaterasu's not gonna cut it. 



FlamingRain said:


> It took a couple seconds for Orochimaru to feel the effects.
> 
> Katsuyu doesn't have to do anything. She volunteered to go through Mabui's Tensō no Jutsu because she said she could survive "_being split into pieces_". It wasn't about doing it herself, the _trauma of the transfer would have split her_. She would split apart upon the Totsuka stabbing her- effectively avoiding the sealing effect.



Being split into pieces is different than getting stabbed by a spirit sword with no physical form that has sealing properties. It's different but I still think there is a possibility of Katsuyu splitting before Itachi pierces her though.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

Amaterasu gg , Tsunade is killed , and Katsuyu sommoning is deleted .


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachі said:


> But he could use multiple Amaterasu all over her body. Itachi has never been up against Tsunade though, here he has full knowledge and would know that a standard Amaterasu's not gonna cut it.


Well whether Itachi wins by Spamming Amaterasu to the point where Tsunade can no longer heal or wins through Totsuka Sword, I don't see much difference in the grand scheme of things. My main point being that I don't see a single use of Amaterasu sealing the deal against Tsunade.


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## Ghost (Nov 16, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> He can barely beat her even with MS.



One Amaterasu is all it takes to beat Tsunade.


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## Ghost (Nov 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Tsunade canonically healed Tsukuyomi so that's useless against her.



The classic most retarded argument ever.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 16, 2015)

Ghost said:


> The classic most retarded argument ever.



You don't read a lot of arguments.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Being split into pieces is different than getting stabbed by a spirit sword with no physical form that has sealing properties.



The principle is the same.

Totsuka being a spirit sword _"with no physical form"_ might have mattered if it had just _phased through_ Orochimaru or something, but it sliced him and then pierced through him drawing blood. If used on Katsuyu it would result in her segmenting, in which case the sealing properties wouldn't even come into play against her.


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## Ghost (Nov 16, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> You don't read a lot of arguments.



I have read quite a few the past few years.


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## Bloo (Nov 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I think it's funny that the stuff opening restricted has zero relevance in the fight anyway. Tsunade canonically healed Tsukuyomi so that's useless against her.


I don't understand how you can make this argument... Kakashi was put into a coma and Tsunade, from the outside and not under the effects, healed him. If she were put into a coma she clearly couldn't heal herself from the effects of Tsukuyomi.

This argument has always been one of the dumbest, most illogical arguments I've ever seen on this forum.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

Kakashi got hit and then passed out _a few moments later_. Tsunade only took a couple seconds to heal the damage.

Nobody ever argued that Tsunade would heal herself _while in a coma._.

_That_ is one of _the_ dumbest readings of what people suggesting she could heal from it are saying.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 16, 2015)

Amaterasu/Susano'o end Tsunade, she's got no chance of winning.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachi held back vs both Kakashi and Sasuke. And both were in terrible condition after healing. Itachi can use a more powerful torture or mind control MS genjutsu. Either way Tsukuyomi is going to incapacitate long enough for Itachi to land a finisher(if needed).


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachi taxes her with Amaterasu. If she ever decides to bring Katsuyu in beforehand, Tosuka oneshots It.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Itachi held back vs both Kakashi and Sasuke.



He held back on Sasuke because he used 1/3rd of Tsukuyomi's true duration.

He broke a sweat and had to catch his breath after hitting Kakashi with the 72 hour version, so I kind of doubt that wasn't the real thing. He held back against Kakashi by not attacking while he was on the ground and vulnerable.



> Either way Tsukuyomi is going to incapacitate long enough for Itachi to land a finisher(if needed).



Perhaps, but that's a different matter than whether or not Tsunade could heal from Tsukuyomi.


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## Ghost (Nov 16, 2015)

Bloo said:


> If she were put into a coma she clearly couldn't heal herself from the effects of Tsukuyomi.



Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Next thing you're gonna tell me is that a brain surgeon cannot do an operation on themselves.


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## Kai (Nov 16, 2015)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Tsunade canonically healed Tsukuyomi so that's useless against her.


Tsunade (through Katsuyu) canonically healed the Gokage so Complete Susanoo was useless against them.


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## LostSelf (Nov 16, 2015)

Rocky or Komnenos? .

Question: I've only seen Katsuyu dividing sending her clones down. If Itachi targets the head, wouldn't the clones coming down ignite the other part of her body?

If Itachi creates a circle of flames around Katsuyu, would she be able to shoot some divisions off herself out of the circle?

Aside from that, i think Itachi can ignite Tsunade's entire body, depending on the distance. The amount of flames he shot to cerberus were like six times bigger than Naruto.

I think, getting on top of Katsuyu and giving Itachi a complete view of Tsunade is suicide.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Nov 16, 2015)

*Ive seen many examples of how Itachi can defeat Tsunade and how Tsunade can "escape or evade" his attacks. However I haven't seen any examples of how she would win not just survive. From what I've seen Itachi has a far better chance of winning. Tsunades best bet would be Katsuyu which un-restricts Susanoo so she loses their to. With Susanoo unrestricted does it automatically come with Totsuka?*


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## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

She would win if Itachi ran out of Chakra to use the Mangekyō with before he got to her.



LostSelf said:


> Question: I've only seen Katsuyu dividing sending her clones down. If Itachi targets the head, wouldn't the clones coming down ignite the other part of her body?
> 
> If Itachi creates a circle of flames around Katsuyu, would she be able to shoot some divisions off herself out of the circle?


The flames would be on _top_ of the slug or slugs that were split off, so she ought to be fine.

The one that took Naruto to Shizune also _jumped_ (or it wouldn't have landed so far away).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2015)

Tsunade healed Tsukiyomi after both Kakashi and Sasuke were in a coma for one week and they didn't wake up immediately after.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 16, 2015)

mind control MS genjutsu

 No cancelling the effects of Tsukyomi you say?


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## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

It's like you intentionally ignored the context.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tsunade healed Tsukiyomi after both Kakashi and Sasuke were in a coma for one week and they didn't wake up immediately after.



If Tsunade had been there when they first got hit, they probably wouldn't have passed out in the first place.


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## Ersa (Nov 16, 2015)

The Tsukuyomi used on Kakashi was not a full strength variant, Itachi held back.



> *Kakashi*: (Thinking) Unh... I see... Three days in that realm and less than a moment passed in this one... Why not kill me? If he wanted to he could...



Tsunade gets hit by a full Tsukuyomi and she's quite literally half-dead. No, she does not heal herself. Brain surgeons do not operate on themselves while they are asleep. Either that or he seals Katsuyu with Susanoo, lights Tsunade on fire and walks away.

Terminal illness Itachi wins quite easily, Edo Itachi would make this match look like a wrestler fighting an mouse.


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## Jad (Nov 16, 2015)

Tsunade is not immune to Itachi's Tsykomi. Won't the Tsykomi torture her using the memories of her little brother and  Dan? That would cripple her. Or am I thinking of the Tsykomi wrongly?


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## Ersa (Nov 16, 2015)

> Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands.


Kakashi who is more skilled at genjutsu and has Sharingan was put into a coma by a weak variant of Tsukiyomi.

Tsunade tanks it and heals.

Never change, NBD. What's next? Tsunade is also faster because of her 3.5 speed medic training?


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## Pocalypse (Nov 16, 2015)

How did this turn into a Tsukiyomi battle when I've specifically restricted Genjutsu and Tsukiyomi 

There's literally no escaping it


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 16, 2015)

Ersad said:


> The Tsukuyomi used on Kakashi was not a full strength variant, Itachi held back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounded to me like he was insinuating that Itachi could have killed him in real-time while he was under the influence of the Tsukuyomi. Or that, if he possessed that level of power all along, he couldn't understand why he hadn't been killed sooner. I don't think he was implying Itachi held back with the Tsukuyomi itself, especially not since he was physically strained afterwards.

Anyway, Sasuke had enough willpower to resist the Tsukuyomi with his sharingan. If he hadn't, then he wouldn't have been able to use it in the first place to escape. Its perfectly plausible that Tsunade has enough willpower to tell Katsuyu to heal her while she's under the technique's influence, or afterwards, if needs be. Just because it took Part I Sasuke a few minutes to wake up, it doesn't mean someone with a vastly superior mental fortitude couldn't wake up faster.

Of course, provided he has the chakra left, Itachi will just end up killing her with Amaterasu, or maybe the Totsuka, but Tsukuyomi seems to be within her capacity of countering.​​


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## Ersa (Nov 16, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Sounded to me like he was insinuating that Itachi could have killed him in real-time while he was under the influence of the Tsukuyomi. I don't think he was implying Itachi held back with the Tsukuyomi itself, especially not since he was physically strained afterwards.​



Given Itachi's role as a spy and Kakashi's comment it's more then likely he held back. And physically strained? Yeah, maybe cause he's dying and terminally ill.



> Anyway, Sasuke had enough willpower to resist the Tsukuyomi with his sharingan. If he hadn't, then he wouldn't have been able to use it in the first place to escape. Its perfectly plausible that Tsunade has enough willpower to tell Katsuyu to heal her while she's under the technique's influence, or afterwards, if needs be. Just because it took Part I Sasuke a few minutes to wake up, it doesn't mean someone with a vastly superior mental fortitude couldn't wake up faster.


Nice, you're conveniently forgetting Sasuke has access to the Sharingan which offers genjutsu protection. *[]*

Tsunade with her 3.5 in genjutsu is going to use her "willpower" to overcome it and tell Katsuyu to heal her? Not seeing it to be honest. Even then, it takes place over the span of a few seconds. Katsuyu won't even notice until Tsunade is a vegetable on the ground. 


> Of course, provided he has the chakra left, Itachi will just end up killing her with Amaterasu, or maybe the Totsuka, but Tsukuyom seems to be within her capacity of countering.


​No.

She lacks the ability to avoid eye-contact consistently like Gated Gai. She lacks the doujutsu and genjutsu skills to break free of it.


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## Bonly (Nov 16, 2015)

Katsuyu-Sama solos for the most part, nothing Itachi can do will keep her down for good while acid will melt Itachi eventually


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## LostSelf (Nov 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The flames would be on _top_ of the slug or slugs that were split off, so she ought to be fine.
> 
> The one that took Naruto to Shizune also _jumped_ (or it wouldn't have landed so far away).



That's fair. I agree, then.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 16, 2015)

Ersad said:


> Given Itachi's role as a spy and Kakashi's comment it's more then likely he held back. And physically strained? Yeah, maybe cause he's dying and terminally ill.



I've already expressed that I think you're misinterpreting Kakashi's comment, and I see no rebuttal of my own interpretation. Itachi's illness was all fine and well, but he seemed just as tired out after using that Tsukuyomi against Kakashi as he was against Sasuke. There was no discrepancy in the volume of chakra used, and therefore no reason to assume he held back against the former.



> Nice, you're conveniently forgetting Sasuke has access to the Sharingan which offers genjutsu protection. *[]*



Either you were so keen to dismiss my argument that you didn't read it, or you just didn't understand it. Its all fine and well possessing genjutsu resistance with the sharingan, but its not just something you 'have', its something you have to actively use, hence why Sasuke was able to break out of it (because he was _trying_ to). But you need willpower to endure the effects of Tsukuyomi and use your sharingan to resist it. Tsunade can't break out of it because she doesn't have the same genjutsu resistance, but that doesn't mean she can't recover from its effects in the interim.



> Tsunade with her 3.5 in genjutsu is going to use her "willpower" to overcome it and tell Katsuyu to heal her? Not seeing it to be honest. Even then, it takes place over the span of a few seconds. Katsuyu won't even notice until Tsunade is a vegetable on the ground.



What does her genjutsu stat have to do with her willpower? Nothing, is the answer. 

If Katsuyu doesn't notice in time then she just heals Tsunade afterwards. He's an Uchiha, which she has knowledge of through Tsunade, so it doesn't take a genius to figure out what happened to her when she collapses after having received zero physical damage.



> She lacks the ability to avoid eye-contact consistently like Gated Gai. She lacks the doujutsu and genjutsu skills to break free of it.



Personally, I don't see what is so difficult about fighting someone without making eye contact with them. Fighting them in CQC fist fights by purely looking at their feet is a different kettle of fish, but then Tsunade won't need to do that because Itachi will be neither engaging her up close for prolonged periods of time nor trading blows with her. She has Katsuyu to recover from all of his genjutsu anyway, regardless of whether she can break out by herself or not.​​


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## LostSelf (Nov 16, 2015)

I think is difficult. Or at least, enough when you're fighting skilled Uchihas. Kishimoto has shown several times why just avoiding eye contact is not _that_ simple.

-Naruto and Chiyo, both stating you need a partner to break you out. And if you're alone, run. (Naruto stating he doesn't need to because he can create clones.)

-Kakashi, one of the best tactical genius couldn't come up with a method quick enough to counter it.

-Kishimoto also made Gai train. Someone who's the most skilled CqC fighter in Konoha, had to train in order to avoid genjutsu.

-And there's sage Kabuto. Who covered his eyes in order to avoid it.

I don't think is as easy as saying "I won't look at him into the eyes". Or at least, Kishimoto doesn't see it that way.


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## Ersa (Nov 16, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I've already expressed that I think you're misinterpreting Kakashi's comment, and I see no rebuttal of my own interpretation. Itachi's illness was all fine and well, but he seemed just as tired out after using that Tsukuyomi against Kakashi as he was against Sasuke. There was no discrepancy in the volume of chakra used, and therefore no reason to assume he held back against the former.​



Both interpretations hold merit. But in context it's more likely he was talking about Tsukuyomi since he mentioned the realm beforehand. Either way it doesn't matter really about the strength of the technique he used, Kakashi's feat of being conscious after Tsukuyomi is not scalable to Tsunade.

He has genjutsu defense, I'm afraid "strong willpower" is not a form of defense.


> Either you were so keen to dismiss my argument that you didn't read it, or you just didn't understand it. Its all fine and well possessing genjutsu resistance with the sharingan, but its not just something you 'have', its something you have to actively use, hence why Sasuke was able to break out of it (because he was _trying_ to). But you need willpower to endure the effects of Tsukuyomi and use your sharingan to resist it. Tsunade can't break out of it because she doesn't have the same genjutsu resistance, but that doesn't mean she can't recover from its effects in the interim.


No, you're misunderstanding my point. Sharingan offers defense against genjutsu as well, namely Kakashi would suffer less from the technique because he has some form of resistance to it while Tsunade has zero.

I don't see Tsunade faring much better then Part I Sasuke. Sharingan trumps "willpower" as far as taking Tsukuyomi goes, given databook and manga statements.


> If Katsuyu doesn't notice in time then she just heals Tsunade afterwards. He's an Uchiha, which she has knowledge of through Tsunade, so it doesn't take a genius to figure out what happened to her when she collapses after having received zero physical damage.


Right as the slug tries to heal her, Itachi seals it and fries Tsunade.



> Personally, I don't see what is so difficult about fighting someone without making eye contact with them. Fighting them in CQC fist fights by purely looking at their feet is a different kettle of fish, but then Tsunade won't need to do that because Itachi will be neither engaging her up close for prolonged periods of time nor trading blows with her. She has Katsuyu to recover from all of his genjutsu anyway, regardless of whether she can break out by herself or not.


​Right, which is why a Sage who is leagues and leagues faster then 3.5 speed Tsunade covered his eyes instead of looking at Itachi's feet.

Or why Chiyo told Naruto to run 1v1 against the Sharingan.

Why Gai had to train years to perfect it.

Why Asuma mentioned it was nearly impossible.

What feats does Tsunade have to suggest she can replicate Gai's years of training in the area? A 3.5 speed stat? Getting blitzed by Pain?


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## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

Sasuke's Sharingan was deactivated when he got hit.



Ersad said:


> ...



Why do you ignore me? 

Also why are you and a bunch of other people sad all of a sudden?



> The Tsukuyomi used on Kakashi was not a full strength variant, Itachi held back.



Itachi held back _by_ not attacking a Kakashi left vulnerable by Tsukuyomi. Like I said earlier, it's doubtful he held back the Genjutsu itself when we can see that he broke a sweat and spent a moment catching his breath.



> Brain surgeons do not operate on themselves while they are asleep.



Nobody is asking her to.

Kakashi stayed awake for a few moments after being hit, and you are talking about someone who willed herself over a phobia rooted in what were probably her worst memories at that time when you get to Tsunade. She will not pass out instantaneously either, and she would only take a couple seconds to heal the damage.



> Either that or he seals Katsuyu with Susanoo, lights Tsunade on fire and walks away.



Katsuyu's splitting ability effectively counters the Totsuka.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 16, 2015)

SadRain
SadSelf
Sadcky (Rocky)
Sadly (Bonly).


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

_FlamingRain_ is not sad.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

I dunno. Adele seemed pretty sad.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Katsuyu's splitting ability effectively counters the Totsuka.



The moment the sword makes contact with the creature, it's trapped in an all encompassing genjutsu, which is the main reason why Orochimaru couldn't use Oral Rebirth to escape.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

No.

>Itachi uses the Totsuka to impale Orohimaru.
>Itachi asks if Sasuke's got anything else.
>Orochimaru cackles and says Itachi surely doesn't think a little cut like that would be enough to stop him.
>Orochimaru finally feels the effects.

The Genjutsu is what the person feels inside the jar.

The problem Itachi would run into, though, is that impaling Katsuyu would split her.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> No.
> 
> >Itachi uses the Totsuka to impale Orohimaru.
> >Itachi asks if Sasuke's got anything else.
> ...


Impaling Katsuyu wouldn't cause her to split because he's not slicing through her, he's just poking a hole. There's a difference.

And, she doesn't automatically split at that second and the genjutsu is ensnared at the moment they are stabbed. Otherwise Orochimaru would have used Oral Rebirth, like he said this level of a wound isn't enough to kill him.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 16, 2015)

The Katsuyu clones are all connected and quite frankly, Totsuka blade seals anything it pierces.

 Katsuyu isn't going to split instantaneously anyways when it was incapable of doing so against Manda.


----------



## Matty (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachi should win even with the extreme gimping -_- without it he wrecks. I never bought into the "Sannin are equal" talk.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

_"Kishi doesn't know what he's talking about. Who cares what he writes, he's just the author."_



Sadzuki said:


> Impaling Katsuyu wouldn't cause her to split because he's not slicing through her, he's just poking a hole. There's a difference.
> 
> And, she doesn't automatically split at that second and the genjutsu is ensnared at the moment they are stabbed. Otherwise Orochimaru would have used Oral Rebirth, like he said this level of a wound isn't enough to kill him.



It's an analogous trauma.

She does automatically split, which is why she volunteered to go through the shredder on the basis that she could survive _"being split into pieces"_. The trauma of the transfer would have split her itself, unless you want to argue Katsuyu could react _during_ a flight _at lightspeed_.


In which case she'd just react before the Totsuka ever touched her...


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It's an analogous trauma.
> 
> She does automatically split, which is why she volunteered to go through the shredder on the basis that she could survive _"being split into pieces"_. The trauma of the transfer would have split her itself, unless you want to argue Katsuyu could react _during_ a flight _at lightspeed_.
> 
> ...




Dude, wtf the seriously?

Katsuyu is durable but you guys are making her out to be ridiculous. If she is stabbed by Totsuka, she's going into the bottle, the databook explicitly states that once someone is stabbed they are drawn in.



> It is an ethereal weapon with an enchanted blade capable of sealing the target it pierces. Those who are stabbed by the sword are drawn into the jar and trapped in a genjutsu-like "world of drunken dreams" for all eternity;


If Itachi uses it in the same way he used it against Orochimaru (first slicing and dicing) then sure, Katsuyu can split, but if it is a single stab wound, she's not going to split, rather she's going to get sucked in.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Sasuke's Sharingan was deactivated when he got hit.


That's true, my bad.

With that being said, I see little reason to scale Tsunade to Kakashi's feat of being conscious after the Tsukuyomi.



> Why do you ignore me?
> 
> Also why are you and a bunch of other people sad all of a sudden?


I dare not challenge foes I cannot defeat 



> Itachi held back _by_ not attacking a Kakashi left vulnerable by Tsukuyomi. Like I said earlier, it's doubtful he held back the Genjutsu itself when we can see that he broke a sweat and spent a moment catching his breath.


It's a valid interpretation but the statement could also refer to the genjutsu given the context sentence prior. It's semantics and I don't feel like it needs to be debated on.

As for the panting and sweating, it comes with the terminal illness and his low stamina. Any MS technique drains him, ribcage Susanoo drained healthy Sasuke for example.



> Nobody is asking her to.
> 
> Kakashi stayed awake for a few moments after being hit, and you are talking about someone who willed herself over a phobia rooted in what were probably her worst memories at that time when you get to Tsunade. She will not pass out instantaneously either, and she would only take a couple seconds to heal the damage.


Kakashi takes less mental damage because of the resistance the Sharingan gives him to Tsukuyomi alongside Sharingan's natural genjutsu defense. Tsunade would be in a worse state, conscious probably but in no state to heal that amount of mental damage. 



> Katsuyu's splitting ability effectively counters the Totsuka.


Totsuka stabs her before she splits. 

Nagato who can react to V2 B failed to react, Orochimaru with his 4.5 speed failed to react. Katsuyu who is slower then Tsunade will also fail to react.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Nov 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> _"Kishi doesn't know what he's talking about. Who cares what he writes, he's just the author."_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Assuming Totsuka splits Katsuyu to pieces…..

It's one pierce and into the bottle it goes. Something as big as Katsuyu is literally a moving bullseye for Totsuka to oneshot. Seeing as how it's an ethereal weapon, piercing would pose no predicament either.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachi wins tsunade is too slow and dumb to hit itachi. Itachi is on a different level. If not for the distance she would get blitzed


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 17, 2015)

Ersad said:


> Both interpretations hold merit. But in context it's more likely he was talking about Tsukuyomi since he mentioned the realm beforehand.



Why does mentioning the realm make your argument more valid? And I take it you concede to the fact that he used just as much chakra on his Tsukuyomi on Kakashi as he did against Sasuke?



> Either way it doesn't matter really about the strength of the technique he used, Kakashi's feat of being conscious after Tsukuyomi is not scalable to Tsunade.



And Tsunade's feat of healing Tsukuyomi's damage in like 2 seconds is not scalable to Kakashi either. Kakashi doesn't have the Shosen no jutsu, so your comparison is bizarre. She doesn't need to resist it, just endure it long enough for Katsuyu to start healing her. 



> He has genjutsu defense, I'm afraid "strong willpower" is not a form of defense.



Yet again, I never said that it was. It's just a means for her to use her defense, which is medical ninjutsu.



> No, you're misunderstanding my point. Sharingan offers defense against genjutsu as well, namely Kakashi would suffer less from the technique because he has some form of resistance to it while Tsunade has zero.



No, I completely understand your point, it's just that it's not valid. Sharingan offers genjutsu resistance if you're able to consciously use the sharingan, which requires willpower, which Sasuke and Kakashi have.



> I don't see Tsunade faring much better then Part I Sasuke. Sharingan trumps "willpower" as far as taking Tsukuyomi goes, given databook and manga statements.



Tsunade overcame a blood phobia mid-battle, and fought with two giant swords bisecting her, and healed her allies for hours while split in half. Her mental fortitude is leagues ahead of Part I Sasuke's, who couldn't dream to accomplish any of those things.



> Right as the slug tries to heal her, Itachi seals it and fries Tsunade.



Maybe, that's only if he's able to summon Susano'o, draw the Totsuka and stab Katsuyu (which for reasons FlamingRain already explained, is unlikely) before the slug is able to start healing her. He'd have to be pretty close to her. Even so, I'm only arguing that she has a means to counter Tsukuyomi, I'm aware that she herself has no effective counter to the Totsuka blade.



> Right, which is why a Sage who is leagues and leagues faster then 3.5 speed Tsunade covered his eyes instead of looking at Itachi's feet.



I don't know what example you're referring to, but if it involved Itachi running at them and spending prolonged periods of time in CQC, then it isn't relevant, because he isn't going to do that against Tsunade. Why would he risk getting hit at all when he can sit at a range and light her ablaze?



> Or why Chiyo told Naruto to run 1v1 against the Sharingan.



In a match where Itachi was attacking him in CQC.



> Why Gai had to train years to perfect it.



Because Gai's only method of attack is close ranged strikes, and his opponent was actively using taijutsu against his team-mates at the time.



> Why Asuma mentioned it was nearly impossible.



In a fight where Itachi was attacking them in CQC for prolonged periods of time.



> What feats does Tsunade have to suggest she can replicate Gai's years of training in the area?



She doesn't. I explicitly said as much in my last post. But if we're getting technical, she doesn't have to be as good as Gai at doing it, she just has to be able to follow his feet to know where he's going. He can stab and punch her all he likes, she laughs at his 3.5 strength stat and shrugs off the damage effortlessly. As long as he doesn't trip her up, she'll be fine. The same could not be said of Asuma or Base Gai, who have to evade attacks to be able to land follow-up hits.



> A 3.5 speed stat?



Her taijutsu is better than his, which helps to compensate for (but doesn't completely mitigate) the tier speed gap. Itachi is faster and therefore difficult to hit, but he'd still struggle to defeat her in a fist fight because she's better at taijutsu than he is.



> Getting blitzed by Pain?



When she was about to fall into a coma? What a shitty example.​​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Her taijutsu is better than his, which helps to compensate for (but doesn't completely mitigate) the tier speed gap. Itachi is faster and therefore difficult to hit, but he'd still struggle to defeat her in a fist fight because she's better at taijutsu than he is.



He wouldn't beat her in a fist fight because she can ignore his fist and tear him in half. That is the focal point of her combat style, and her only advantage on Itachi. If you equalized strength, she'd stand no chance _whatsoever. _

As good Tsunade's anticipation up close may be, it is poop in comparison to the psychic, image-projecting powers of the 3-Tome. Now combine that with the accelerated perception, and Tsunade is going in slow-mo. 

She'd get murdered. Everything she tried to do would be read before it even began. It'd be nothing but Itachi counter-punching her in every single exchange until she lost consciousness.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 17, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> _"Kishi doesn't know what he's talking about. Who cares what he writes, he's just the author."_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kasuya probably splits the similar to the Cerebus.  

But I'm pretty okay with Katsuya's reactions>Minato=Tobirama>Ei>universe.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2015)

People keep forgeting about VOTE.

Jumping from 2 tomoe to 3 tomoe is a game changer.

A person without sharingan has to be much much better as a figther, and possibly much faster to be able to defeat person with it.
Tsunade is neither.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He wouldn't beat her in a fist fight because she can ignore his fist and tear him in half. That is the focal point of her combat style, and her only advantage on Itachi. If you equalized strength, she'd stand no chance _whatsoever. _
> 
> As good Tsunade's anticipation up close may be, it is poop in comparison to the psychic, image-projecting powers of the 3-Tome. Now combine that with the accelerated perception, and Tsunade is going in slow-mo.
> 
> She'd get murdered. Everything she tried to do would be read before it even began. It'd be nothing but Itachi counter-punching her in every single exchange until she lost consciousness.



I sort of think sharingan advantage evens out a bit once you get to the top tiers.  Guy and Kakashi seemed relatively equal in base and 3 tomoe, even though Guy only had .5 more speed and .5 better taijutsu that Kakashi's psychic, image-projecting powers of the 3-Tome combined with the accelerated perception.  

He dumped on Hidan and fought Kakuzu, and his sharingan let him see through a combo, but it didn't seem like his sharingan made seven worlds of difference.  Nor did Itachi fool on Bee like Sasuke on KN0.  Bee and Naruto also competed pretty well with rinnegan shared sharingan slow mo psychic vision from the other paths, some of which were natural speedsters without tapping bijuu chakra, and then they tapped it.  Then we've got peeps like Tobirama and Minato who regularly utilize hyper speed attacks and react out of multiple teleports and counter counters which outstrip every non-god sharingan feat, and they have only top tier normal eyes.  Keep in mind that child Kakashi speed/Lee speed is already considering moving too fast for a normal eyes person to move safely, and you gotta wonder why the difference isn't more pronounced once you hit the elite tier.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> People keep forgeting about VOTE.
> 
> Jumping from 2 tomoe to 3 tomoe is a game changer.
> 
> ...



Or you're like me and think it tapers off as you get higher up.

Cursed seal was also a game changer back in VOTE, and game breaking back in the FOD, but later on the boost it provided was, while present, negligible compared to those showings.  It went from Sasuke laughing off KN combos and cackling madly at his exponential increase in power, to letting him slightly and slowly edge out Itachi's fireball.  Happen there.


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I sort of think sharingan advantage evens out a bit once you get to the top tiers.  Guy and Kakashi seemed relatively equal in base and 3 tomoe, even though Guy only had .5 more speed and .5 better taijutsu that Kakashi's psychic, image-projecting powers of the 3-Tome combined with the accelerated perception.



I do agree with this to a degree. Kishimoto never again stressed the "precognition" element to the same degree as VotE I. Actually, it's almost as if he forgot about it after that but _suddenly remembered again_ 500 chapters later. 

I'm not sure what to make of it, but the accelerated perception never went away; Sasuke abused it against A/B. Tsunade would still be going in slow-mo, and even without psychic powers, that is enough of an advantage in close combat to edge her. 

Giving Tsunade her strength & toughness back changes things, obviously.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 17, 2015)

^ I thought he highlighted with Ei only to demonstrate the superiority of the sharingan user against a V1 user. Through and through, we know how it works but I suppose Ei being one of the fastest shinobi alive, I'd say that was why he demonstrated what level of speed Sasuke was at. And then broke the emphasis with V2.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Or you're like me and think it tapers off as you get higher up.
> 
> Cursed seal was also a game changer back in VOTE, and game breaking back in the FOD, but later on the boost it provided was, while present, negligible compared to those showings.  It went from Sasuke laughing off KN combos and cackling madly at his exponential increase in power, to letting him slightly and slowly edge out Itachi's fireball.  Happen there.



I kinda disagree.

I don't think it tapered off, but rather neglected and put aside as new or stronger abilities were being introduced to the game. 

We saw how it changed the game in the summit, when sharingan precognition allowed Sasuke to outmanuver A or later on when it allowed Itachi to read Kabuto and rape him in jutsu execution.

Granted, shinobi hardly rely on taijutsu anymore. Back in the day, taijutsu and CQC was their bread and butter, but as the manga went on more and more powerful ninjutsu entered the picture, driving fights away from hand to hand combat.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 17, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Dude, wtf the seriously?
> 
> Katsuyu is durable but you guys are making her out to be ridiculous. If she is stabbed by Totsuka, she's going into the bottle, the databook explicitly states that once someone is stabbed they are drawn in.
> .



 


Dud, wtf the seriously?

Is there even a need for the "the" above when wtf has a "the" in it? Anyway you need to stop underrating my beautiful Queen of Solo, the Great Katsuyu-Sama. 

If you go back and look when Orochi used his Yamata and got sealed all of his white snakes were together as one in the Yamata form and yet after Orochi got hit we see a few snakes managed to get away and not get sealed. 

That means it's not simple a case of get pierced get completely sealed for certain people. This means that if the Great Katsuyu-Sama is pierced she can still split to allow some clones to get away. So she may go to the bottle but she can make it so that multiple clones manage to get away scott free.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I do agree with this to a degree. Kishimoto never again stressed the "precognition" element to the same degree as VotE I. Actually, it's almost as if he forgot about it after that but _suddenly remembered again_ 500 chapters later.
> 
> I'm not sure what to make of it, but the accelerated perception never went away; Sasuke abused it against A/B. Tsunade would still be going in slow-mo, and even without psychic powers, that is enough of an advantage in close combat to edge her.
> 
> Giving Tsunade her strength & toughness back changes things, obviously.



I think what happens is that the users have their sharingan from a young age, so they grow dependent on it in high level play.  We look at it like Minato plus sharingan and think about how awesome that is, when really it's Itachi+sharingan=Minato.  Even though Itachi and Kakashi and Sasuke have good stats independent of the sharingan, we know they all rely on it.  Kakashi needed it vs Zabuza despite statistically being better, Sasuke needed it vs everyone, and Itachi never shuts his off.  

Look at how people view Hokage Kakashi vs War Arc Kakashi, despite them having the same stats.  Most people think he becomes the weakest Hokage despite his still top tier stats, because he needs it to operate at that level.  But again, give Minato or Tsunade or Tobirama sharingan, and we imagine them as kage level plus+.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

I think you may be right. I'm not really sure how "top tier" Kakashi's (or any other non-Jesus Uchiha) stats actually are. These characters always use the Sharingan. Always. So we never actually got to see how they'd perform without it, and it doesn't look too good.  

Raikage squatting down and dropping one on Sasuke's Super Sharingan was quite eye-opening. Even if you want to say that Itachi & Kakashi are marginally above Sasuke, neither of them could even _dream_ of perceiving the v2 Shunshin without any Sharingan if Sasuke couldn't manage with his Mega Sharingan. 

But Minato was able to do it. Pretty consistently at that. Consistently enough to never get blitzed in their many battles. Consistently enough to be so fluid in his maneuvers that A himself referred to Minato as the faster of the two. All without any external "reflex booster."

I dunno man. I dunno...


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2015)

We saw the difference between Sasuke and Itachi vs Bee's sword dance, and in the Kabuto fight.  Itachi reacts slightly faster and more fluidly.  Which makes sense, because he is slightly faster (about what you'd expect from a .5 speed difference), and he has better body movement, and he's more experienced.  Regular Kakashi is somewhere between the two.  Which is about the last time you can make reasonable comparison, because right after that the manga goes crazy.  So yeah, better, but not enough to close the gap for any difference that isn't already borderline.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I think you may be right. I'm not really sure how "top tier" Kakashi's (or any other non-Jesus Uchiha) stats actually are. These characters always use the Sharingan. Always. So we never actually got to see how they'd perform without it, and it doesn't look too good.
> 
> Raikage squatting down and dropping one on Sasuke's Super Sharingan was quite eye-opening. Even if you want to say that Itachi & Kakashi are marginally above Sasuke, neither of them could even _dream_ of perceiving the v2 Shunshin without any Sharingan if Sasuke couldn't manage with his Mega Sharingan.
> 
> ...


I was under the impression that statistics never included dojutsu or senjutsu and etc.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 18, 2015)

Haku's speed stat(4.0) was very likely based on his Ice Mirror speed. Unless you want to buy 4.0 Haku losing to below-3.0 Sasuke in base speed.



Rocky said:


> Raikage squatting down and dropping one on Sasuke's Super Sharingan was  quite eye-opening. Even if you want to say that Itachi & Kakashi are  marginally above Sasuke, neither of them could even _dream_ of perceiving the v2 Shunshin without any Sharingan if Sasuke couldn't manage with his Mega Sharingan.


MS doesn't grant superior precog. And Sasuke was using 3-tomoe anyways.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 18, 2015)

Yeah MS has never been stated or shown to give better pre-cognition. Also most of Sharingan's reactions feats are using 3 tomoe.


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 18, 2015)

Kishi just doesn't care, but since EMS precognition > Sharingan precognition it's logical that EMS precognition > MS precognition > Sharingan precognition.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 18, 2015)

EMS precog might be a retcon in the most recent arc, to allow Sasuke to keep up with Naruto physicaly without giving him a power up.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 18, 2015)

Madara didn't say "so you have EMS, no wonder you move well". He said "so you have Choku Tomoe". Which wasn't explained even in DB4. It might be something select few advanced Sharingan shapes have. And we never saw Sasuke using MS for tracking iirc. Only EMS.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 18, 2015)

I am not going to read it all, however I don't know what's stopping Itachi from genning and low-diffing Tsunade.



Alex Payne said:


> Haku's speed stat(4.0) was very likely based on his Ice Mirror speed. Unless you want to buy 4.0 Haku losing to below-3.0 Sasuke in base speed.
> 
> 
> MS doesn't grant superior precog. And Sasuke was using 3-tomoe anyways.



Anyway, I don't want to get involved in this argument much but Haku was still playing with Sasuke. He wasn't serious, and crystal mirror doesn't boost Haku's actual speed, it just allows him to hit and run, and confuse opponent with reflection, letting them not be able to know where he'll come from. It's just you attack and hide inside mirror before they can attack you.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Haku's speed stat(4.0) was very likely based on his Ice Mirror speed. Unless you want to buy 4.0 Haku losing to below-3.0 Sasuke in base speed.
> 
> 
> MS doesn't grant superior precog. And Sasuke was using 3-tomoe anyways.



I thought Sasuke kept up with super Haku through liberal use of shunshin and better taijutsu.  Which he forgot how to do when he fought Lee.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Haku's speed stat(4.0) was very likely based on his Ice Mirror speed. Unless you want to buy 4.0 Haku losing to below-3.0 Sasuke in base speed.



I don't believe the speed stat includes jutsu from what the DB say besides couldn't it simply be due to the whole "he was holding back" thing Haku had going on


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 18, 2015)

Madara and Sasuke's EMS is special, it's the only MS that grants any sort of passive ability outside of the ninjutsu they can use with it. 

Anyways Tsunade can't tank Amaterasu, that simple. Even if she regenerates she has no way of dispelling the flames to my knowledge, they would continue to burn until she ran out of chakra and died.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 18, 2015)

Bonly said:


> I don't believe the speed stat includes jutsu from what the DB say besides couldn't it simply be due to the whole "he was holding back" thing Haku had going on


Haku holding back = not using lethal force. If Haku had been capable of blitzing and knocking Sasuke out - he would have done so. Plus there are Haku's own thoughts[1]. And Zabuza's statement. Wave Arc Sasuke > Haku when normal speed is concerned. 

And DB has nothing about stats not including powerups/enhancements. Only Sound 5 got special "this is Base Stats" added to their entries.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 18, 2015)

He was holding back against the kids. Haku reacted just fine to unweighted Lee and Gai. His 4.0 speed is supported by feats.* [1]*

It's also natural power inflation.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 18, 2015)

Haku holds back that badly that he calls slower opponents "Fast!" in his head.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Haku holding back = not using lethal force. If Haku had been capable of blitzing and knocking Sasuke out - he would have done so.



Can you prove so? Last time I checked Haku knew the human body well enough that one needle could make it seem like he killed Zabuza and yet he didn't chose to do that early on in the fight even though going by what you said he should have.



> Plus there are Haku's own thoughts[1]. And Zabuza's statement. Wave Arc Sasuke > Haku when normal speed is concerned.
> 
> And DB has nothing about stats not including powerups/enhancements. Only Sound 5 got special "this is Base Stats" added to their entries.



Haku's thoughts were that Sasuke's fast, doesn't mean he thought he was faster and Zabuza thoughts is based on what he saw but that doesn't mean he knew that Haku was holding back.

Haku's ice mirrors isn't a power up or enhanced form like KCM or Sage Mode, or CS or Butter Mode or Raiton armor so it wouldn't be included in the speed stat. If that's the case then why did Ino get blitz by Sakura who had a lower speed stat during the CE arc?


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 18, 2015)

In any case I think people forget just how skilled someone needs to be to fight a 3T Sharingan, especially a ninja as talented as Itachi or even Kakashi. 

Think back to VotE and how easily Sasuke was able to put down Naruto after he awakened the 3T, even though Naruto was much faster than he was.

Even though they never fought 1 on 1 throughout the manga Kakashi and Gai's relationship makes it seem like Kakashi can hang with base Gai in Taijutsu despite not being as good at it nor as fast as Gai is. All because of the magic eyes.

Think Sasuke avoiding a direct hit from B in midair or hell even A who is much faster than he is.

Now think about how fast Tsunade is.

Now think about how fast Itachi is. His speed is top tier. And his taijutsu is nowhere near bad. Tsunade has the strength to put him down but that means nothing if she can't hit him.

This is a stomp. You could restrict amaterasu and even then I could see Itachi still winning.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 18, 2015)

Haku. Lost. Track. Of. Wave. Arc. Sasuke.



Thought bubble. Not speech bubble.



Bonly said:


> Haku's ice mirrors isn't a power up or enhanced form like KCM or Sage Mode, or CS or Butter Mode or Raiton armor so it wouldn't be included in the speed stat. If that's the case then why did Ino get blitz by Sakura who had a lower speed stat during the CE arc?


 Because stats are bullshit. 

Haku on foot was outsped by Sasuke who in the next Arc lost in speed to Lee with weights on. Sasuke then trained himself up to weights-off Lee's speed.

Haku: 4.0
Gaara-fight Sasuke: 3.0
Lee: 4.0

gg

Ice Mirror jumps being counted in Haku's stat makes at least _some_ sense. Sasuke with Sharingan was barely able to follow both Lee and Mirror-Haku.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 18, 2015)

Speed has always been weird, especially since back then Haku's speed was pretty hyped, even Zabuza mentioning how nobody could be faster. The troll is real.

4.0 my ass.

I guess Sasuke avoiding his jutsu could have surprised him, but still, Sasuke even keeping up with his speed is sad in the first place.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> MS doesn't grant superior precog. And Sasuke was using 3-tomoe anyways.



There are some things that point to the contrary, and no, Sasuke was using the MS. A went v2 _because_ Sasuke was using the MS.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Haku. Lost. Track. Of. Wave. Arc. Sasuke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But Mirror Haku got behind Jonin Sai (and others) before they even noticed. I don't think a 4 can do that IMO

I think you also need reflexes to move that fast. Otherwise, Haku wouldn't be able to bounce from mirror to mirror if he couldn't keep up with Sasuke's speed.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2015)

Zabuza wouldn't have been surprised at Sasuke keeping up with Haku if he noticed Haku was being a hyper slug.  

I'd expect something like, "Wow, Haku, start trying."


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 18, 2015)

-Can't follow Sasuke's movements.
-Moves way faster than that between mirrors

*Kishi's logic*

I don't know if i'm wrong with that. But if he couldn't keep up with Sasuke, to the point of not seeing him at all, how the hell can Haku move faster than that and attack accordingly?

I have an answer (Kishimoto). But maybe someone has a better explanation.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There are some things that point to the contrary, and no, Sasuke was using the MS. A went v2 _because_ Sasuke was using the MS.


Sasuke wasn't using MS to track A's movement . That was my point about MS granting superior pre-cog to 3-tomoe.



LostSelf said:


> -Can't follow Sasuke's movements.
> -Moves way faster than that between mirrors
> 
> *Kishi's logic*
> ...



That's why I don't think that "Speed Fandom" is a good idea 
To be fair though Haku moves only between special points. And we have Kid Kakashi and his "too fast to properly react but still can attack" Chidori.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There are some things that point to the contrary, and no, Sasuke was using the MS. A went v2 _because_ Sasuke was using the MS.



I think MS and EMS gradually grew to do things it didn't originally.  At some point in the latter half of the war arc, and then again with trans-migrant eyeball, it seemed to become a generic all purpose power boost. At Summit Arc I think it just boosted stamina and chakra.  But you can where on the mechanics to plot device scale it fell at any given point. The canon explanation for rando powerupping given by Tobirama was eyeballs of hatred releasing special chakra into the brain to make the ninja better.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 18, 2015)

I love Kishimoto.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2015)

We should get some artists and redraw Part II to be consistent with Part I mechanics.  Then we can argue about that.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 18, 2015)

I don't want to get involved but this is getting pretty stupid at this point.

Haku called Sasuke "fast" and then chuckled to himself and started using mirrors saying "Now I will show you my real speed" pretty much implies that he wasn't all that serious and was underestimating Sasuke, but when he realized how fast Sasuke was, it was too late and he was already behind him, engaging in a close combat. I would like to state that Sasuke never really defeated Haku in speed at first place, he only managed to dodge Haku's needle jutsu and appear behind her (surprise while he was going easy) and then engaged him in close combat. You people talk like speed alone makes a character win in close combat, no it doesn't, there's entire taijutsu skills, and Sasuke is rated 2.5 in taijutsu while Haku is rated 1. Sasuke won because of his considerably better skills at taijutsu and not solely because of speed. The entire speed wank in this thread is real, people talk like speed is the only stat a guy has. There's overall h2h combat skills, nimbleness, reaction timings and whatnot.

Also, the difference between Haku and Sasuke's speed was only 1, thus Haku wasn't going to blitz Sasuke every single moment. In mirrors, it gave Haku the advantage of quickly hitting and running all while confusing Sasuke with all the reflections from like twenty mirrors out there.

When Sasuke fought Lee, he thought Lee was using genjutsu or ninjutsu and thus activated sharingan thinking that he could see through Lee's illusion, however not realizing that Lee was pure taijutsu. Speed isn't the only reason why Lee blitzed Sasuke, if you look correctly, Sasuke could see him coming and even blocked one of the moves before Leaf Hurricane, it's because of Lee's nimbleness and excellent skills in taijutsu which allowed him to pass through Sasuke's defenses (the difference between Lee and Sasuke's taijutsu skills are considerable too) and hit him. Again, speed is not the only factor which decides if you can land a hit or not, there are taijutsu skills and overall how nimble a character is. You guys are overrating speed as if its everything.

Lee used a decent tier close ranged technique and his overall skills in taijutsu allowed Lee to overpower Sasuke, and the fact that Sasuke was arrogant and pretty much didn't even think that Lee was using pure taijutsu. Also, I'd like to state that while base stats are important, *do not forget that those stats do not include a person's chakra control and the fact that they can have a sudden speed boost by focusing chakra on their feet, and Sasuke did just that against Haku.* Link removed

Link removed As you can see here, Sasuke could react to Lee's kicks, the speed difference wasn't that hard. However, Link removed Lee's taijutsu skills allowed him to pass through Sasuke's defenses. The fun part is, he didn't even have sharingan on and he could STILL react. 

Link removed Look at what Sasuke's intentions were when he activates sharingan. And he was arrogant as heck.

Honestly, speed wank needs to be stopped, the difference b/w Haku and Sasuke's speed was only 1, and Sasuke never really defeated Haku in a race or some crap, he managed to outtai him in a battle of taijutsu, where BOTH speed AND taijutsu skills take place. Not to mention the first time Sasuke dodged his jutsu, he focused all his chakra on his feet.

Seriously, you guys need to think of it more deeply before just stating "lol he didn't get blitz, bs databook"


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2015)

I said taijutsu and shunshin let Sasuke keep up.  Credit me senpai.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 18, 2015)

The "focus chakra to the feet" thing stopped existing after Part I.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 18, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I said taijutsu and shunshin let Sasuke keep up.  Credit me senpai.



So I am not the only one here. 



Rocky said:


> The "focus chakra to the feet" thing stopped existing after Part I.



Because after Part I, the physical stats were just so high that slow characters couldn't keep up even via chakra control. Physical stats are more important, HOWEVER chakra control is still important and can allow you to keep up with characters quite faster than you a bit. Not to mention Sasuke didn't dodge Haku in a battle of speed, he dodged Haku's ninjutsu attack.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The "focus chakra to the feet" thing stopped existing after Part I.



Chiyo pointed to it during the Sasori fight.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 18, 2015)

Link? I probably missed it. I never read the Sasori fight in its entirety lol.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Link? I probably missed it. I never read the Sasori fight in its entirety lol.



_"Her strength, evasion, and healing wounds...that has definitely used up a lot of Chakra..."_

Viz reads: _"That monstrous strength, dodging, healing...they all demand considerable Chakra..."_

If Sakura's evasive maneuvers were Chakra-intensive she was probably doing something _similar to this_.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2015)

That's always how I figured getting better quality chakra influenced physical stats.  The better quality chakra replaced the low grade chakra you normally used to enhance your movements.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2015)

Oh, it's also why I figured shoten clones and KB were worse than the original.  They have the same bodies, but they don't have the same amounts of chakra to enhance their movements.  Similar to how ninjas physically perform worse when they're low on chakra.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 18, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> _"Her strength, evasion, and healing wounds...that has definitely used up a lot of Chakra..."_



I see what you mean. I'm not sure what form of speed that is. It's different than Shunshin, which is temporary chakra-vitalization of the entire body, and it isn't base-taijutsu speed.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 18, 2015)

I think shinobi can use chakra to enhance all kinds of movement, including taijutsu. That was pointed out when Gai was watching Sasuke fight Gaara. He said it takes too much chakra to maintain that speed.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 18, 2015)

_Stamina_, Grimmjow. Not chakra.

Chakra is built from stamina. Taijutsu drains stamina, but (usually) doesn't require chakra to be built up.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 18, 2015)

My bad, I always thought Sasuke used chakra to enhance his speed. I guess he just exerted his body energy to raise his speed, but then, doesn't every shinobi do so ?


----------



## Shanal (Nov 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think shinobi can use chakra to enhance all kinds of movement, including taijutsu. That was pointed out when Gai was watching Sasuke fight Gaara. He said it takes too much chakra to maintain that speed.



Not really, Sasuke's speed is mostly his base speed, via his basic physical stats. _Stamina_ The only thing that was stated about it was by Lee, who said that it takes up a lot of *stamina*. Sakura has been so far the only one who uses up chakra to boost up her speed to THAT level, though it's a short burst for small distance, note that Kakashi claims her chakra control is better than that of Sasuke's.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 18, 2015)

Eh, seems like it took me a while typing. xD


----------



## Rocky (Nov 18, 2015)

Sasuke is actually a superb example of all three speed-types.

The speed Sasuke was using on Gaara was natural speed. Body speed. Whatever. I called it Fast-Taijutsu speed in my thread. This speed took Lee years to achieve, and Lee continues to work on it by wearing _weights_. It only took a month of dedicated training for Sasuke, but that's because Sauce is supposed to be a prodigy. 

Next, there's chakra enhanced speed, otherwise known as Shunshin. Sasuke _starts using this_ in Part II. This is typically better than natural speed (unless we're talking enhanced natural speed like Gated Lee & Gai). Sakura & Naruto were literally incapable of processing the fact that Sasuke had moved until Shunshin was over. Sauce could have _legit_ no-diffed both of them.

Finally, there's teleportation, which Sasuke begins using post-Jesus. Teleportation allows Sasuke to get the jump on pretty much any character. It's usually better than speed unless we're talking broken speed. I'd rather be The Flash than Minato, even if I had my opponent marked. It's all relative.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke is actually a superb example of all three speed-types.
> 
> The speed Sasuke was using on Gaara was natural speed. Body speed. Whatever. I called it Fast-Taijutsu speed in my thread. This speed took Lee years to achieve, and Lee continues to work on it by wearing _weights_. It only took a month of dedicated training for Sasuke, but that's because Sauce is supposed to be a prodigy.
> 
> ...



Sasuke has actually demonstrated speed buff via putting all his chakra on his feet against Haku too, which is a little, if not considerably different from Shunshin.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 18, 2015)

Yeah, I was informed. Since she often used it, I'm going to call that type of speed "The Sakura."

Whatever it is, it was hardly relevant in Part II.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Because stats are bullshit.



Or it's because a fight involves more then just one stat which is why when Sakura used a ninjutsu she was able to blitz someone faster then her.



> Haku on foot was outsped by Sasuke who in the next Arc lost in speed to Lee with weights on. Sasuke then trained himself up to weights-off Lee's speed.
> 
> Haku: 4.0
> Gaara-fight Sasuke: 3.0
> ...



So Sasuke outsped a Haku holding back? Neat but that doesn't mean he's faster not to mention that if the mirrors speed was included then it would likely be rated higher then a four seeing as he keep moving faster then Kakashi with Raikiri as well as being able to physically react to and block Lee+Gai. I don't think someone slower then Wave arc Sasuke is fast enough to physically react to and block Part two Gai and Lee.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He wouldn't beat her in a fist fight because she can ignore his fist and tear him in half. That is the focal point of her combat style, and her only advantage on Itachi. If you equalized strength, she'd stand no chance _whatsoever. _



Well, as far as I'm aware, her resilience and durability haven't been restricted.



> As good Tsunade's anticipation up close may be, it is poop in comparison to the psychic, image-projecting powers of the 3-Tome. Now combine that with the accelerated perception, and Tsunade is going in slow-mo.



Yet his psychic powers don't help him when she free falls into the ground and obliterates the battlefield with enough force to blow Juublings up. He can't evade in mid-air where his taijutsu is useless. He can use Susano'o or Amaterasu in that case, or Kage Bunshin, or whatever other ninjutsu he pulls out his ass, but in straight taijutsu he loses. Even if she weren't to use her smashy smashy fighting style, and just aimed at his body, she only needs to graze him to do damage. In prolonged periods of taijutsu fighting, I find it unlikely that he won't take even a jab or graze, especially as his stamina gradually diminishes, while hers remains practically unchanged.



> She'd get murdered. Everything she tried to do would be read before it even began. It'd be nothing but Itachi counter-punching her in every single exchange until she lost consciousness.



Itachi's stamina isn't nearly good enough to pull that off.​​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 18, 2015)

Read the first sentence of the post you quoted.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 18, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Dud, wtf the seriously?
> 
> Is there even a need for the "the" above when wtf has a "the" in it? Anyway you need to stop underrating my beautiful Queen of Solo, the Great Katsuyu-Sama.
> 
> ...



It depends on how Itachi wants to use it, if he's going to seal her, then he's going to poke her, not cockslash her ( ͡? ͜ʖ ͡?). There are only 2 applications on how to use the sword, one of them being slicing and the other sealing. Katsuyu gets sealed regardless.

These OOC moves you are giving her are beyond ridiculous because in any of her Part 2 match-ups Tsunade has never used Katsuyu for offensive purposes ever. That should be a dead give away, second given how she reacted to fighting 5 Susano'os, I'd say she makes the same gamble here.

She can't come close to hitting Itachi, regardless of whatever universe you want to wank her on, at best she's Wind Arc Naruto-level in terms of speed which Itachi already submitted into genjutsu defeat twice. She's not going to start the match with katsuyu, so she won't be able to break the genjutsu. If by some miracle due to her perfect chakra control she can, she has no viable offense to use against Itachi. 

All of her physical attacks and taijutsu are going to be read by Itachi, especially if Itachi was able to avoid Killer Bee's swordsmanship, he's not going to have a problem with Tsunade whatsoever. This thread is an obvious curb in favor Itachi, most Tsunade fans need to let this wank go already. That's not including Amaterasu into the equation.

:ignoramus


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Read the first sentence of the post you quoted.





The fact that you don't think she would win in a fist fight doesn't change the fact that I disagree with you on the proceedings of how said fist fight would go down.​​


----------



## Bonly (Nov 18, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> It depends on how Itachi wants to use it, if he's going to seal her, then he's going to poke her, not cockslash her ( ͡? ͜ʖ ͡?). There are only 2 applications on how to use the sword, one of them being slicing and the other sealing. Katsuyu gets sealed regardless.



Sure she gets sealed but as I wanted to point out Katsuyu can make it where only a small part of her is actually sealed which means it wouldn't be a big deal.

The rest is irrelevant because I don't care whether you find my very obvious joking/trolling of Katsuyu-Sama ridiculous because that's the point, to be as bad as someone like Raikiri with Kakashi or Jad with Gai while also being able to make decent points like Strat with Itachi. Don't talk bout my Katsuyu-Sama in a bad light and we'll be A-OK


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 18, 2015)

Ersad said:


> That's true, my bad.
> 
> With that being said, I see little reason to scale Tsunade to Kakashi's feat of being conscious after the Tsukuyomi.



Itachi basically said _"It's true the Sharingan can resist the Mangekyo to some extent, but *you* can't break *this* Jutsu here"_, so it seems to me that the ability to resist which Itachi brought up is the Sharingan increasing one's ability to _actually break_ Genjutsu. I don't think Itachi was saying that having a Sharingan means Genjutsu only hit you with partial strength. 

Itachi was pointing out that Kakashi's ability _would not work against Tsukuyomi_, and Tsunade shocking those present by overcoming her hemophobia is a greater feat of spirit than anything we'd seen from Kakashi at that point, so she should be able to deal.



> As for the panting and sweating, it comes with the terminal illness and his low stamina. Any MS technique drains him, ribcage Susanoo drained healthy Sasuke for example.



Sasuke had used Amaterasu and multiple Enton techniques _on top of_ Susano'o for an extended period of time. He had also withstood hits.

I'm not sure what thats supposed to say about Itachi huffing and puffing the first time he used the Mangekyō that day...

He was fatigued because he hit Kakashi with a real Tsukuyomi. As we saw soon after, he was able to use a less powerful Tsukuyomi attack on Sasuke without being similarly fatigued.



> Totsuka stabs her before she splits.
> 
> Nagato who can react to V2 B failed to react, Orochimaru with his 4.5 speed failed to react. Katsuyu who is slower then Tsunade will also fail to react.



Nagato got slammed by V2 Bee, and Orochimaru didn't seem like he would have cared to avoid the Totsuka anyway even if he could.

But I don't think she needs to react to the Totsuka because the act of stabbing Katsuyu with the Totsuka would split her, rendering the attempt to seal her null.



Sadzuki said:


> Dude, wtf the seriously?



It'd probably be better if you were to ask yourself that question, because what you bolded is what follows from your idea. It's avoided by mine.



> The databook explicitly states that once someone is stabbed they are drawn in.



Another example of a _general_ truth to which there exist exceptions.

Katsuyu plausibly is one, for reasons I've already pointed out earlier, as well as this:



> Capturing her is impossible already! Because she is a boneless mollusk, she has a fantastical ability to transform at will, that of deciding to divide her whole body or to reunite it. All physical attacks are nullified before this technique. No matter how violent the strike, it won't amount to more than a fruitless attempt. The enemy will just exhaust themselves accordingly and eventually fall to the ground.



if you want to get into what the databook explicitly says.

Attempting to stab her would result in a split up Katsuyu. 



sanninme rikudo said:


> Assuming Totsuka splits Katsuyu to pieces…..



Given Katsuyu's fission abilities and how Orochimaru bled when Itachi tried impaling him that is the logical conclusion yes.

But if you and Ryuzaki are just going to repeat what's already been responded to I probably won't bother wasting my time.



Lord Aizen said:


> Itachi wins tsunade is too slow and dumb to hit itachi.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 18, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It'd probably be better if you were to ask yourself that question, because what you bolded is what follows from your idea. It's avoided by mine.


 that she's going to split before the sword touches her, Katusuyu by no means has ever demonstrated speed or precognition of this caliber. 




FlamingRain said:


> Another example of a _general_ truth to which there exist exceptions.
> 
> Katsuyu plausibly is one, for reasons I've already pointed out earlier, as well as this:
> 
> ...


Not really because Katsuyu is larger than Itachi's sword so a stabbing wound wouldn't cleave her in half, it would just penetrate her there. ( ͡? ͜ʖ ͡?)

She would then get sealed as a whole in the Totsuka jar, you could make the argument that Tsunade summons another 5% but this entirely contingent upon whether she summons Katsuyu or not. I don't think she'll summon her since she's rarely ever used her as an offensive tool.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yeah, I was informed. Since she often used it, I'm going to call that type of speed "The Sakura."
> 
> Whatever it is, it was hardly relevant in Part II.



Please don't call anything useful, even if irrelevant, "The Sakura."


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> that she's going to split before the sword touches her, Katusuyu by no means has ever demonstrated speed or precognition of this caliber.



No.

Let me run you through that again.

_You're_ the one asserting that she doesn't split automatically, even though she volunteered to go through Tensō no Jutsu because she could survive being split into pieces. If she does not do it automatically then she would've had to react during light-speed Tensō no Jutsu.

_I'm_ the one saying _that is dumb_, so it must happen automatically.



> Not really because Katsuyu is larger than Itachi's sword so a stabbing wound wouldn't cleave her in half, it would just penetrate her there.



It doesn't matter if Katsuyu is larger than Itachi's sword. She is larger than the vast majority of physical attacks, but she's still implied to be very (_extremely_) hard to damage with them. A sword thrust is too conventional a strike to not be covered by her ability, especially since we already know that her ability is not limited to a full body fission _(1)_ _(2)_.

Stabbing her simply isn't going to work.



> I don't think she'll summon her since she's rarely ever used her as an offensive tool.



We've only seen Tsunade in all of _two_ fights (in which none of her opponents had Amaterasu or the Totsuka), and she'd have summoned Katsuyu for _defensive_ purposes in this thread...so.......


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

v9 Katsuyu GG


----------



## Bonly (Nov 19, 2015)

Katsuyu-Sama can split at will without being damaged so whether stabbing doing damage to her or not doesn't mean she won't/can't split.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

Tsunade isn't winning unless he's restricted to base with no genjutsu.

Splitting isn't going to help Katsuyya lmao. Orochimaru's white snake was capable of turning into multiple other snakes, and Orochimaru would have bailed if he could have. He has way more shit to escape it then her including splitting into seperate bodies, and the fact that his true body is always dormant inside. Katsuya is still one entity.

Once you are stabbed the Fuinjutsu takes affect. Katsuya is not splitting before the Fuinjutsu affects her lmao.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Orochimaru doesn't automatically split into smaller Orochimarus, and his snakes don't automatically split into more snakes.

Kind of why he bleeds, and why his snakes bleed.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Orochimaru doesn't automatically split into smaller Orochimarus.
> 
> Kind of why he bleeds.



Proof her splitting is automatic and not conscious?

and even if once Katsuya is pierced the Fuinjutsu already has her. It's like saying if Katsuya got tagged by Death Reaper that she could just split. Both are ethereal, both utilize Fuinjutsu, and both automatically commence upon contact (either Death God ripping through stomach or Totsuka stabbing). Absoluetly no evidence to suggest her splitting could counter fuinjutsu, only physical (only) attacks.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 19, 2015)

If it wasn't passive, we have ftl Katsuyu hype.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Proof her splitting is automatic and not conscious?
> 
> and even if once Katsuya is pierced the Fuinjutsu already has her. It's like saying if Katsuya got tagged by Death Reaper that she could just split. Both are ethereal, both utilize Fuinjutsu, and both automatically commence upon contact (either Death God ripping through stomach or Totsuka stabbing). Absoluetly no evidence to suggest her splitting could counter fuinjutsu, only physical (only) attacks.



You can read my posts on this page.

The Totsuka isn't Shiki Fūjin. It does _not_ phase through anything- it physically slashes and stabs like any other physical sword does. The sealing Jutsu attached to it only takes effect when it actually pierces something, and Itachi could not pierce Katsuyu anymore than he could a children's ball pool.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> You can read my posts on this page.
> 
> The Totsuka isn't Shiki Fūjin. It does _not_ phase through anything- it physically slashes and stabs like any other physical sword does. The sealing Jutsu attached to it only takes effect when it actually pierces something, and Itachi could not pierce Katsuyu anymore than he could a children's ball pool.


Ok Totsuka is a Fuinjutsu of comparable hype, and way better mechanics. Regardless, once Katsuya's body is is stabbed by the blade she's going to get sealed. There is nothing suggesting Katsuya splitting will bypass fuinjutsu, nothing at all.

Just cause Totsuka can effect things physically without the fuinjutsu doesn't mean it's composed of regular physical matter. It's still ethereal and th epoint of my comparison was ethereal things affecting physical things and subsequently applying fuinjutusu. Itachi also seemingly chooses when to apply the fuinjutsu when he pierces as oppossed to Nagato as he consciusly decided when to seal Nagato's soul.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 19, 2015)

Katsuyu so good she splits before Orochimaru-blitzing Totsuka connects with her.

Like she did the right before Manda made a physical contact with her. And Bunta wasn't forced to help her. It didn't take her multiple panels to begin splitting at all. Oh, wait...


----------



## Ersa (Nov 19, 2015)

Well Katsuyu had a 5.0 in the Databook for speed so you're not wrong there, son.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I think it's funny that the stuff opening restricted has zero relevance in the fight anyway. Tsunade canonically healed Tsukuyomi so that's useless against her. Itachi never even had Koto at his disposal in battle. Izanami won't work on some like Tsunade to begin with. And lesser Genjutsu can only set her up to be hit by attacks that she would heal through anyway.



^ This.

I got a chuckle of the OP.

-----

To me,  healthy itachi Vs Tsunade can go either way. The only problem Tsunade is facing here is really getting sealed. Amatersu is non-factor which is kinda duh. The rest of itachi's arsenal can't do
much to here anyway. 

If Tsunade summon Bonly's queen, then she wins more times than not. If she does not summon her, then she loses more times than not probably. 

It's 50/50 in general tho...


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 19, 2015)

i had no idea itachi was downplayed so much that he's 50/50 with a mid-kage without genjutsu lol


----------



## Trojan (Nov 19, 2015)

Well, Kishi said itachi is jonin level, so he technically below "mid-Kage". But no, he is overrated as fuck. 

> Kishi had Tsunade fighting 5 Madara clones for HOURS.
> People think 1 itachi will defeat her in second
> ....
> Kishi laughs.

pretty sure Kishi was not trying to say itachi's MS is more powerful than Madara's EMS/Rinnegan. In addition, Madara is the better fighter all around, and yet
she still kept up fighting 5 clones for hours. 

Itachi's only advantage here is really his sword because it can seal Tsunade.

Same with his Tsuki, people ignore that her healing power is AUTOMATIC (they often misunderstand that for genjutsu thinking it activates automatically instead lol)

or creating some fan-fiction that itachi did not use his full power genjutsu against Kakashi. God knows from where they pulled that out.
Especially that we have never seen itachi doing any stronger genjutsu than that. Well, I guess they still believed in the theory that itachi did
it to help Kakashi to get the MS. 


and Amatersu has constantly been trolled in the last 13 years or so?! Kishi did not make it even defeat fodders, and yet we are suppose to think it will defeat a Kage
right away, yeah right.  even tho we have seen how Kages dealt with it like child play so many times...


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The Totsuka would just split Katsuyu so it couldn't seal her.





FlamingRain said:


> It took a couple seconds for Orochimaru to feel the effects.
> 
> Katsuyu doesn't have to do anything. She volunteered to go through Mabui's Tensō no Jutsu because she said she could survive "_being split into pieces_". It wasn't about doing it herself, the _trauma of the transfer would have split her_. She would split apart upon the Totsuka stabbing her- effectively avoiding the sealing effect.





FlamingRain said:


> She does automatically split, which is why she volunteered to go through the shredder on the basis that she could survive _"being split into pieces"_. The trauma of the transfer would have split her itself, unless you want to argue Katsuyu could react _during_ a flight _at lightspeed_.
> 
> 
> In which case she'd just react before the Totsuka ever touched her...





FlamingRain said:


> But I don't think she needs to react to the Totsuka because the act of stabbing Katsuyu with the Totsuka would split her, rendering the attempt to seal her null.
> 
> 
> It'd probably be better if you were to ask yourself that question, because what you bolded is what follows from your idea. It's avoided by mine.





FlamingRain said:


> No.
> 
> Let me run you through that again.
> 
> ...












Alex Payne said:


> Katsuyu so good she splits before Orochimaru-blitzing Totsuka connects with her.
> 
> Like she did the right before Manda made a physical contact with her. And Bunta wasn't forced to help her. It didn't take her multiple panels to begin splitting at all. Oh, wait...





Ersad said:


> Well Katsuyu had a 5.0 in the Databook for speed so you're not wrong there, son.




I am really considering handing out my first negs to these posts.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Ok Totsuka is a Fuinjutsu of comparable hype, and way better mechanics. Regardless, once Katsuya's body is is stabbed by the blade she's going to get sealed. There is nothing suggesting Katsuya splitting will bypass fuinjutsu, nothing at all.



No, the Totsuka is a blade with a Fūinjutsu attached to it. The prerequisite for the activation of the Fūinjutsu is physically stabbing the target. Anything that isn't truly impaled by it physically (Katsuyu) will thus be safe from the Fūinjutsu. 

It does not matter if it's actually composed of regular matter because we already know that it acts like it is. Given what we saw happen to Orochimaru the _"no physical form"_ description is probably just referring to its ability to change shape (it forms from a liquid inside the bottle and didn't stay the same size the whole time it was out).


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 19, 2015)

Itachi neg diffs, literally. He trashes her with ease, faster, more haxxed, can just dodge and kill her with kunai in her eyes.



Hussain said:


> Well, Kishi said itachi is jonin level, so he technically below "mid-Kage". B



???


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Kunai are not killing Tsunade.


----------



## Siennyzhuang (Nov 19, 2015)

I'm sorry to post here i know this is not related to this thread, however if someone is willing to answer my question i am thankful for it. itachi said that izanami is created in order to counter izanagi,when someone use izanagi they lost their eyes forever. So in the battle how can someone use izanagi over and over again to escape reality ( not danzo's case) and that is why the uchiha find a way to stop it using izanami. I doubt when someone in an ongoing battle can go retrive other eyes. In the anime episode 338 there is a scene an uchiha using izanagi over and over again before being stopped by izanami. Can someone explain it to me? Or did i miss something ?


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Izanagi isn't limited to one retry per eyeball; it allows the user any amount of extra lives for a certain amount of time.

Danzō for example had 1 minute of Izanagi with each eye he decided to use it with. If Sasuke had killed him thrice in a minute, that'd still only be one Izanagi.

Izanami could be used once someone recognizes that Izanagi is being cast as a result.


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Kunai are not killing Tsunade.



Kunai are cutting her head off, which is killing her.

Kunai are piercing her head, which is killing her.

Normal kunai slashes, yes, they aren't killing her for sure.


----------



## Pocalypse (Nov 19, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kunai are cutting her head off, which is killing her.
> 
> Kunai are piercing her head, which is killing her.
> 
> Normal kunai slashes, yes, they aren't killing her for sure.



Itachi's a smart character, with knowledge he isn't going to engage someone like Tsunade in CQC with a friggin Kunai man


----------



## Ersa (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I am really considering handing out my first negs to these posts.


Relax, I was taking the piss.

Rocky's infected me with his speed talk.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I am really considering handing out my first negs to these posts.



It took a lot of meditation and spiritual grounding to accept that posts like this will always exist, and life will be okay anyway.



Raikiri19 said:


> Kunai are cutting her head off, which is killing her.
> 
> Kunai are piercing her head, which is killing her.
> 
> Normal kunai slashes, yes, they aren't killing her for sure.



fookin' negged


----------



## Ersa (Nov 19, 2015)

Not going to lie though, Tsunade going 50/50 against healthy Itachi without genjutsu is one of the dumber things I've read on this forum. And I've read a lot of dumb shit here.


----------



## LostSelf (Nov 19, 2015)

Ersad and AP made FlamingRain angry.

I've been trying that for years but never could, as much as i recall. Congrats.

OT: How is Amaterasu a non-factor?


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

Itachi winks at her.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 19, 2015)

Sorry, don't want to go off topic or something, but, just opened it up and got curious. Why even restrict Izanami, it won't work on Tsunade, she isn't Kabuto.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Sorry, don't want to go off topic or something, but, just opened it up and got curious. Why even restrict Izanami, it won't work on Tsunade, she isn't Kabuto.



lmao what? You realize that you don't have to have Kabuto's backstory for Izanami to work right? Just a situation from someone's past that they would struggle to escape hence trapping them in the loop.


----------



## Shanal (Nov 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> lmao what? You realize that you don't have to have Kabuto's backstory for Izanami to work right? Just a situation from someone's past that they would struggle to escape hence trapping them in the loop.


Those who defy what they are and their past can be caught in it. Kabuto didn't even know what he was doing, why he was doing and the hell he wanted, he ran from his past, he ran from who he was, he ran from his fate and himself. Cliche, but that's what it is. Izanagi is something which makes the user run from their fate, themselves and whatever happened to them, they think they can just "recreate" the past or simply go back and alter it, or simply live in altered reality, thus Izanami is said to anti Izanagi.

Just because you're sad upon something and can't forget about it, it doesn't mean that Izanami would work on you, what the hell? If you're running from who you are/were and don't even know yourself, and deny your past/fate, then it'd work. You think she'd be Izanami'd solely because she STILL misses her brother and boyfriend or something? Rofl.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Those who defy what they are and their past can be caught in it. Kabuto didn't even know what he was doing, why he was doing and the hell he wanted, he ran from his past, he ran from who he was, he ran from his fate and himself. Cliche, but that's what it is. Izanagi is something which makes the user run from their fate, themselves and whatever happened to them, they think they can just "recreate" the past or simply go back and alter it, or simply live in altered reality, thus Izanami is said to anti Izanagi.
> 
> Just because you're sad upon something and can't forget about it, it doesn't mean that Izanami would work on you, what the hell? If you're running from who you are/were and don't even know yourself, and deny your past/fate, then it'd work. You think she'd be Izanami'd solely because she STILL misses her brother and boyfriend or something? Rofl.


No. You're trying to apply the explicit situation from Kabut;s fight as some sort of restriction for who can be effected by Izanami. The technique was created for practical reasons, aka to stop Power hungry Uchiha from wildin out. Kabuto had an idealogical identity crisis, he wasn't just abusing a hax technique for his own gain. 

Izanami can be used to connect any set of physical events, it's just that physically damaged people are more susceptible to not "accepting the destiny Itachi has set".


----------



## Shanal (Nov 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> No. You're trying to apply the explicit situation from Kabut;s fight as some sort of restriction for who can be effected by Izanami. The technique was created for practical reasons, aka to stop Power hungry Uchiha from wildin out. Kabuto had an idealogical identity crisis, he wasn't just abusing a hax technique for his own gain.
> 
> Izanami can be used to connect any set of physical events, it's just that physically damaged people are more susceptible to not "accepting the destiny Itachi has set".



At the end, me only point, it isn't working on Tsunade.

Link removed
Link removed

That's all I meant.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> No.
> 
> Let me run you through that again.
> 
> ...


You stated, that katsuyu would split before the blow would actually happen, I say this false and incorrect because she has never reacted in this manner.


FlamingRain said:


> *It doesn't matter if Katsuyu is larger than Itachi's sword.* She is larger than the vast majority of physical attacks, but she's still implied to be very (_extremely_) hard to damage with them. A sword thrust is too conventional a strike to not be covered by her ability, especially since we already know that her ability is not limited to a full body fission _(1)_ _(2)_.


It does matter because Katsuyu won't have to time to split apart, since the sword is smaller than Katsuyu's body, there won't be any cleaving of her in half. If neither Nagato or Orochimaru weren't able to avoid this outcome, Katsuyu won't either. She can split when Itachi uses it as a sword but not when he's trying to seal her (i.e. going for the stab).



FlamingRain said:


> Stabbing her simply isn't going to work.


It will work because the sword acts as a conduit for the sealing process to begin. You don't know what you are talking about.



FlamingRain said:


> We've only seen Tsunade in all of _two_ fights (in which none of her opponents had Amaterasu or the Totsuka), and she'd have summoned Katsuyu for _defensive_ purposes in this thread...so.......


Again, she fought 5 Susano'o thinking that the best idea going for her was just brawling, I doubt she's going to make an exception for Itachi and summon Katsuyu. That's not part of her character.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> You stated, that katsuyu would split before the blow would actually happen, I say this false and incorrect because she has never reacted in this manner.



I said that if what you said were true that would be the case.

It isn't the case, therefore what you're saying is incorrect.

Katsuyu's body would split automatically.



> Again, she fought 5 Susano'o.



Yes.

5 Susano'o _without_ Amaterasu or the Totsuka.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I said that if what you said were true that would be the case.
> 
> It isn't the case, therefore what you're saying is incorrect.
> 
> Katsuyu's body would split automatically.


Not fast enough to escape the genjutsu, if Nagato or Orocohimaru couldn't, she isn't either. Her reaction and splitting takes time. That's not going to be enough her for her to escape.

Worst case scenario, Tsunade gets sealed or killed and Katsuyu disappears on her own.



FlamingRain said:


> Yes.
> 
> 5 Susano'o _without_ Amaterasu or the Totsuka.




Unlike that scenario, this is just one Susano'o not 5, so there's a good chance she'll try to tank the blow and move on, as she's always done in every single fight she's been in.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Unlike that scenario, this is just one Susano'o not 5, so there's a good chance* she'll try to tank the blow and move on*, as she's always done in every single fight she's been in.





So you're saying


> Knowledge: *Full*



That Tsunade KNOWS that if that sword hits her, she will get sealed, but for God knows reason
she will dismiss that and think she can tank it and move on? 



> Not fast enough to escape the genjutsu, if Nagato or Orocohimaru couldn't, she isn't either. Her reaction and splitting takes time. That's not going to be enough her for her to escape.



Such terrible examples.

1- Nagato was WITHOUT his brain and CANNOT move. 
2- Oro was standing their because he wanted itachi's body.

Tsunade is neither case. She can move, and she does not care about itachi's diseased body.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> So you're saying
> 
> That Tsunade KNOWS that if that sword hits her, she will get sealed, but for God knows reason
> she will dismiss that and think she can tank it and move on?




Tsunade: 3.5 (speed)
Itachi: 5.0 (speed)

That's the reason why she won't see it coming, she's got shitty speed to begin with and she's not going to be able to respond in time. Katsuyu takes far too much time to split apart, she's going to get sealed. Assuming Tsunade tries anything, she's going to get sealed too because of the speed difference.




Hussain said:


> Such hideous examples.
> 
> 1- Nagato was WITHOUT his brain and CANNOT move.
> 2- Oro was standing their because he wanted itachi's body.
> ...


She can't move fast enough and Kabuto was in control of Nagato.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Not fast enough to escape the genjutsu, if Nagato or Orocohimaru couldn't, she isn't either. Her reaction and splitting takes time. That's not going to be enough her for her to escape.



She does not need to react because it happens automatically. It will be the sword stab splitting her.

Nagato and Orochimaru do not have her splitting ability, so they have nothing to do with anything there.



> Worst case scenario, Tsunade gets sealed or killed and Katsuyu disappears on her own.



If you knew how to pay attention you'd know that I haven't been arguing that Tsunade wins, so...



> Unlike that scenario, this is just one Susano'o not 5.



That has no bearing on how she would react when pitted against someone who can use Amaterasu and Totsuka, though.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> She does not need to react because it happens automatically. It will be the sword stab splitting her.
> 
> Nagato and Orochimaru do not have her splitting ability, so they have nothing to do with anything there.


Provide proof that it happens automatically because it should happen after the attack takes place, not before.



FlamingRain said:


> That has no bearing on how she would react when pitted against someone who can use Amaterasu and Totsuka, though.


She's a one-dimensional fighter whose expertise is taijutsu, Itachi has a speed advantage, sharingan precog, Amaterasu and Susano'o. She's not going to have much of choice in options, anything she's displayed literally falls into the one-dimensional cqc fighter.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Nov 19, 2015)

So what if Nagato and Orochimaru didnt dodge. They were immobile IIRC


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Provide proof that it happens automatically because it should happen after the attack takes place, not before.



Katsuyu's splitting happening automatically is more plausible than the alternative, which is Katsuyu being able to react during a light-speed transfer. It'd be too late to nullify anything if it happened after the fact. Stabbing her would cause her to split without the need for her to react to the attack herself.



> She's a one-dimensional fighter whose expertise is taijutsu.



She's someone with tier 5 intelligence that has full knowledge on Itachi, and who uses her slugs prolifically enough that she's earned the moniker Slug Princess.

Her best bet would be Itachi using up his Chakra for the Mangekyo trying to find her, so she should go with that.

I think Itachi should still win, but that doesn't mean Tsunade would make it easy for him.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 19, 2015)

What the hell happened to this thread? Itachi lights her ass on fire the end.

Why this 9 page debate>?


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

I'm curious. Do you guys see Itachi vs Madara or Itachi vs Hashirama also going "Amaterasu GG, Tsukoyomi GG, Izanami GG, IZanagi GG" if Itachi were unrestricted?


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I'm curious. Do you guys see Itachi vs Madara or Itachi vs Hashirama also going "Amaterasu GG, Tsukoyomi GG, Izanami GG, IZanagi GG" if Itachi were unrestricted?



Implying Tsunade is anywhere near ask combat skilled, or intelligent as Madara/Hashirama. They are above the peak at which Itachi's hax become OHKO's aren't effective as they are so well rounded at such high magnitudes across the board. Tsunade isn't as fast or reactive as Itachi, is less intelligent (in terms of combat)/ intuitive, and relies on brute strength/Regen to win her battles, with the exception of one hax technique that was only used on a jounin.

Itachi's whole arsenal is based on hax, except he as well is well rounded in Kenjutsu, Weapon usage, Taijutsu, and Ninjutsu, hell he even was good enough to use Fuinjutsu. Itachi's battlefield presence/intelligence along with his diverse arsenal of hax/OHKO's is wayy to much for someone like Tsunade.

She is simply not on his level without Island level Katsuya. And even Katsuya is vulnerable to Amaterasu.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 19, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I'm curious. Do you guys see Itachi vs Madara or Itachi vs Hashirama also going "Amaterasu GG, Tsukoyomi GG, Izanami GG, IZanagi GG" if Itachi were unrestricted?



Believe it or not, I have already read those type of arguments.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> She does not need to react because it happens automatically. It will be the sword stab splitting her.
> 
> Nagato and Orochimaru do not have her splitting ability, so they have nothing to do with anything there.



Katsuya is not a liquid and you have no direct evidence it's automatic. If it was automatic and passive as you suggest any stimuli over a certain range (aka stimuli that would normally inflict damage of not be in the normal range of movement/everyday activity) then Oro's snake would not have been able to constrict her for multiple panels, she was only able to do so after the snake was temporarily held up by Gamabunta.

This is the same logic you using to dismiss Totsuka being nigh instant, because Oro was able to spout out a couple words before he felt the seal take effect (despite talking trope taking precedence over actual panel movement).

Totsuka is an etheral Susano sword which mythologically is a Sake Sword which entraps it's victims via Genjutsu/Fuinjutsu. To suggest that Katsuya has the feats, or has been implied via the narrative or portrayal to be able to escape Totsuka is an incredible reach.

Also Amaterasu would wreck her.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 19, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I'm curious. Do you guys see Itachi vs Madara or Itachi vs Hashirama also going "Amaterasu GG, Tsukoyomi GG, Izanami GG, IZanagi GG" if Itachi were unrestricted?




Itachi always wins.

genjutsu gg'd

Why even go through all that trouble to put a tuskiyomi on the planet, just revive Itachi.

Entire planet solo'd


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Implying Tsunade is anywhere near ask combat skilled, or intelligent as Madara/Hashirama. They are above the peak at which Itachi's hax become OHKO's aren't effective as they are so well rounded at such high magnitudes across the board. Tsunade isn't as fast or reactive as Itachi, is less intelligent (in terms of combat)/ intuitive, and relies on brute strength/Regen to win her battles, with the exception of one hax technique that was only used on a jounin.
> 
> Itachi's whole arsenal is based on hax, except he as well is well rounded in Kenjutsu, Weapon usage, Taijutsu, and Ninjutsu, hell he even was good enough to use Fuinjutsu. Itachi's battlefield presence/intelligence along with his diverse arsenal of hax/OHKO's is wayy to much for someone like Tsunade.
> 
> She is simply not on his level without Island level Katsuya. And even Katsuya is vulnerable to Amaterasu.



So what you're saying is with all his good combat skills, weapon skills etc, Itachi can't even look someone like madara or hashirama on their body to inflict black flames even once?


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> So what you're saying is with all his good combat skills, weapon skills etc, Itachi can't even look someone like madara or hashirama on their body to inflict black flames even once?



Yeah because Madara is > Itachi in most of those categories by a good margin. His Susano is better, his speed is better, is CqC is better, his Katons are better, his durability is better, his stamina is wayyy better, etc. Itachi only has the edge in Genjutsu with Tsukuyomi and Ama.

Hashi is just wayyy better physically(speed, strength, and reactions), and pretty versatile to boot with his Mokuton, weapons, Genjutsu, and Byakugo. 


If Tsunade was marginally faster, more skilled, combat intelligent, and more reactive she too would beat Itachi. But she isn't.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

"Marginally" shouldn't cut it imo.

I thought she and the other kage's could atleast keep up with infinite chakra edo tensei madara and his clones for quite some time. You make it sound as though itachi would keep getting blitzed by hashirama and madara


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> "Marginally" shouldn't cut it imo.
> 
> I thought she and the other kage's could atleast keep up with infinite chakra edo tensei madara and his clones for quite some time. You make it sound as though itachi would keep getting blitzed by hashirama and madara



A.) Madara was toying with the Kages. He could have ended it a PS slash had he been serious. 
B.) The Kages individually managed to *survive* Wood clones using low level Susano. That is not the same as facing Madara 1v1 from close range. We're talking about the same man who literally blitzed through a whole division of Shinobi, individually dismantling them one by one.

If Tsunade was 10m from Madara alone she would getting wrecked. There is no discussion. Unless you restrict madara to just his 3 tomoe in which he outspeeds her but can't put her down.

As far as combat skill go Madara >> Itachi > Tsunade.
Tsunade is not landing  a hit on someone who could outmaneuver SM Kabuto in CqC, go hand for hand with KCM Naruto, and psuedo blitz Killer Bee/Block his Sword assult with a kunai. Her best shot is acid bombing with Katsuya ebfore Susano comes into play, which isn't happening at speeds that surpass Kirin which Itachi protected from.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

So what you're saying is madara and hashirama are just going to be a blur to itachi and he won't be able to get one good look at them at all throughout the whole fight?


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 19, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> So what you're saying is madara and hashirama are just going to be a blur to itachi and he won't be able to get one good look at them at all throughout the whole fight?



No why the hell do you kep strawmanning my quotes? You aren't even responding to my points..

If your opponent has a marginal speed/Reactions/skill gap (and in this case many other gaps) that means they are going to be more fluent and successful in getting there attacks off. They will be fast enough to erect counters to Itachi's jutsu. They are both skilled in Uchiha fighting (one is the best Uchiha ever and the other is his rival) and grew up when all the clans were in fighting and reigned supreme over all. They both have DC to fricking nuke towns/ Cities(casually) to countries (at max). 

When looking at their collective abilities in comparison Madara and Hashi just stomp anybody who isn't top tier. That's why we have tiers, which ever rarely break exception (like a mid tier beating a high tier).


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> No why the hell do you kep strawmanning my quotes? You aren't even responding to my points..
> 
> If your opponent has a marginal speed/Reactions/skill gap (and in this case many other gaps) that means they are going to be more fluent and successful in getting there attacks off. They will be fast enough to erect counters to Itachi's jutsu. They are both skilled in Uchiha fighting (one is the best Uchiha ever and the other is his rival) and grew up when all the clans were in fighting and reigned supreme over all. They both have DC to fricking nuke towns/ Cities(casually) to countries (at max).
> 
> When looking at their collective abilities in comparison Madara and Hashi just stomp anybody who isn't top tier. That's why we have tiers, which ever rarely break exception (like a mid tier beating a high tier).



do you even know what marginal means? You keep using it

Marginal: minor and not important; not central. Minute
"it seems likely to make only a marginal difference"

Also, not all uchihahahaha have the amaterasu. Certain skills are unique to person using them. Itachi's unique skill was amaterasu which he later gave to sasu-kek


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Katsuyu's splitting happening automatically is more plausible than the alternative, which is Katsuyu being able to react during a light-speed transfer. It'd be too late to nullify anything if it happened after the fact. Stabbing her would cause her to split without the need for her to react to the attack herself.


It's not plausible because there is no evidence that asserts it is automatic at all. It takes time for Katsuyu to split into part, that's more than enough time for Totsuka to seal her.



FlamingRain said:


> She's someone with tier 5 intelligence that has full knowledge on Itachi, and who uses her slugs prolifically enough that she's earned the moniker Slug Princess.


Itachi has tier 5 intelligence as well, in fact he's much more analytical and strategic than she has been on panel. Itachi's got full intelligence as well, so he'll know about Byakogu and etc.



FlamingRain said:


> Her best bet would be Itachi using up his Chakra for the Mangekyo trying to find her, so she should go with that.


How is she going to force him to use his MS? Itachi has her outclassed in speed by an extreme margin, on top of that he has the sharingan to boot. Pain was able to see her chakra, Itachi will be able to do so as well. Itachi's not going to amp up Amaterasu or Susano'o right off the bat to kill her, he might need it eventually. 



FlamingRain said:


> I think Itachi should still win, but that doesn't mean Tsunade would make it easy for him.


Yeah, I agree but there isn't much Tsunade can do to make the fight difficult though. Itachi might not have genjutsu but this is one of those scenarios where he doesn't really need it to win. The restrictions make the fight last a bit longer but that's about it.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 19, 2015)

Well Amaterasu wouldn't affect Hashirama, he can sense it with SM can't he? However nobody has proof he's immune to Itachi's genjutsu.

Madara I am not so sure about. He's the opposite, I don't think he can sense Amaterasu but he can resist Itachi's genjutsu due to his sharingan.

Itachi really is only better at genjutsu, and has an edge in intelligence IMO, but I doubt he could defeat either of them.

Tsunade isn't outclassed that much, it's just a bad matchup, she cannot hit him and she cannot dispel the flames at all, even with his genjutsu restricted fighting Itachi would be suicide, he's better in speed, cqc, reflexes, and has a 3T sharingan which she cannot hope to beat with taijutsu.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

What would happen if tsunade took the flames head on and then bum rushed itachi to hug him and spread the flames to him, then used her healing for the damage done?


----------



## Ersa (Nov 19, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> What would happen if tsunade took the flames head on and then bum rushed itachi to hug him and spread the flames to him, then used her healing for the damage done?


A 3.5 physical tank running at a 5.0 speedster who can summon a giant spiritual warrior to protect himself faster then a chakra amplified Minato can move his arm.

Yeah good idea.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 19, 2015)

Ersad said:


> A 3.5 physical tank running at a 5.0 speedster who can summon a giant spiritual warrior to protect himself faster then a chakra amplified Minato can move his arm.
> 
> Yeah good idea.



I have no idea what any of that shit means, but Susanoo is restricted as per OP.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> It's not plausible because there is no evidence that asserts it is automatic at all.



The evidence is the scene prior to the Tensō no Jutsu, for reasons repeatedly pointed out already. Reasons which you continue to fail to address.



> Itachi has tier 5 intelligence as well, in fact he's much more analytical and strategic than she has been on panel. Itachi's got full intelligence as well, so he'll know about Byakogu and etc.



More details irrelevant to how _Tsunade_ would react to the situation at hand.



> How is she going to force him to use his MS?



Sheer resilience.

He can't kill her through her defenses otherwise, and he has far less Chakra than she does so outlasting isn't an option.


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## Ersa (Nov 19, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I have no idea what any of that shit means, but Susanoo is restricted as per OP.


I'm assuming Katsuyu is out.

If not, he Shunshin's away. 3.5 speed Tsunade isn't catching him I'm afraid.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The evidence is the scene prior to the Tensō no Jutsu, for reasons repeatedly pointed out already. Reasons which you continue to fail to address.


What reasons? I've review all times Katsuyu has been on the field and none of them show this "automatic" splitting you speak of. 

Provide manga pages to back this claim of yours. There isn't any evidence I've seen so please, show some proof.



FlamingRain said:


> More details irrelevant to how _Tsunade_ would react to the situation at hand.


So when you use the same argument, it's not irrelevant but when I use the same argument with manga backing it all of sudden becomes irrelevant? 





FlamingRain said:


> Sheer resilience.
> 
> He can't kill her through her defenses otherwise, and he has far less Chakra than she does so outlasting isn't an option.


Last I checked, chakra isn't dependent on dodging or movement.


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## Dr. White (Nov 20, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> What would happen if tsunade took the flames head on and then bum rushed itachi to hug him and spread the flames to him, then used her healing for the damage done?



She isn't catching Itachi who is somewhat comparable to Minato's base speed. Sharingan users can also selectively extinguish any flames they desire (ala Sasuke saving Karin while damaging Bee), and to cap it off Tsunade isn't healing from Amaterasu. It burns far too long, can't be put out by normal means, and has thwarted Pein's Cerberus, something that comparable in regen ability as it tanked FRS cellular destruction from KCM Naruto.


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