# Gai vs Tsunade



## joshhookway (Mar 5, 2014)

Location: plains
Restrictions: none
Distance: 30 meters
Knowledge: manga


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## FlamingRain (Mar 5, 2014)

Tsunade still outlasts.






And goodbye.


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## Rocky (Mar 5, 2014)

It's highly unlikely that Gai can kill her unless he pulls out a Kunai and tires to cut her head off or something. In the upper gates, she can't touch him (she likely can't even follow him), so he's going to beat the crap out of her for the duration of his Hachimon, but she'll heal off the damage and then kill him. Tsunade is just a bad match up for Gai.

(Red Gai kills Tsunade and then dies).


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## Ersa (Mar 5, 2014)

Tsunade beats Gai by outlasting him.

Nothing new.

8th Gate Gai wins but dies shortly after.


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## LostSelf (Mar 5, 2014)

I see Gai with manga knowledge slashing her multiple times with Kunai in her most fragile parts like her boobs. Okay, bad joke.

But in her neck, probably. She cannot react decently to such speed, so chances that Gai ends up cutting her head off with multiple slashes in seconds is likely considering the speed uses to punch.

If he doesn't do that then he risks himself of being outlasted, so i don't see him risking himself like this.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 5, 2014)

Tsunade wins.
...or draw.

She merely tanks every one of his attacks, and 8th Gate is the only thing that's probably capable of killing her; it just depends on whether Gai would use its power against such an opponent.

I don't think it's very likely, however, so Tsunade wins after Gai is exhausted from beating her to a pulp.


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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2014)

I thought this match was a 50/50 shot before while leaning towards Gai and my opinion pretty much remains the same and would prolly remain the same next week(seeing as how he dies(supposedly) and all).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade still outlasts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tsunade still outlasts.


lol@ kunai cutting better than kusunagi



And goodbye.


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## LostSelf (Mar 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tsunade still outlasts.
> 
> 
> lol@ kunai cutting better than kusunagi
> ...



Oh no, you don't lol at my argument and walk off saying goodbye .

Why can't a Kunai slash her neck bit by bit? It's not like Gai is going to cut her in half and i seriously doubt Orochimaru's neck strenght because i don't think Tsunade is as hard as diamond, and i doubt more that Kusanagi hype, though.


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## Rocky (Mar 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> lol@ kunai cutting better than kusunag.




I didn't know there was a version of the Kusanagi that could cut at 300km/h.


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## Trojan (Mar 5, 2014)

Guy with 7gates in my opinion is inferior to the Kages, except perhaps Mei. Although the 8th gates may change that, but he will eventually die. U_U


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Oh no, you don't lol at my argument and walks off saying goodbye .
> 
> Why can't a Kunai slash her neck bit by bit? It's not like Gai is going to cut her in half and i seriously doubt Orochimaru's neck strenght because i don't think Tsunade is as hard as diamond.



Mabui's teleport destroys people not Sandaime tough.  Sandaime was taking minimal damage from FRS and top tier slicing futons.  Kunai aren't doing anything to people in or around that tier of durability.

Byako is a healing jutsu on the level of Hashirama, someone who was in a class of his own in every jutsu.  You're not overcoming that with a kunai.

You can doubt Orochimaru's neck strength, but I doubt the strength and durability and sharpness of a kunai compared to a legendary sword.  Supposing Guy would have enough strength in gates to cut through her head with a kusunagi, I don't think that feat could be replicated with an iron kunai, because the tool is insufficient for the job.  At the very, very least, Tsunade's bones are going to be as tough as the Pain Rods Naruto and others casually broke, and cutting through those broke a heck of a lot of superior steel swords and saws in a controlled laboratory setting. 

I'm not buying it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I didn't know there was a version of the Kusanagi that could cut at 300km/h.



I didn't know there was a version of kunai that can stand hitting an object at 300km/h.

If I swing a wiffle bat at a brick wall, I won't eventually break through it without enough swings if I go fast enough.  I'll just break my bat.  I especially won't if that wall is regenerating all the damage it takes.

I also suspect no one believes Guy would ever kill base Ei with a kunai, even if he stood there and let Guy attack him. I suspect not, even if it was stipulated that Ei has slightly less durability than normal.  I suspiciously suspect that.  Suspect-fully.


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## Rocky (Mar 6, 2014)

If you could swing that bat fast enough, I ensure you that you would break that wall. 

I also think you underestimate the  something can do at 300km/h. 



> I suspect not, even if it was stipulated that Ei has slightly less durability than normal. I suspiciously suspect that. Suspect-fully.




I think the durability gap is pretty huge tbh. Tsunade needed life shortening regeneration to survive, and Ei took it without a scratch.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2014)

A piece of straw can pierce through a wooden plank given enough speed.  I'm aware of that and have considered it.  But at a certain point, you need a better tool than the weakest available in the Narutoverse.

[YOUTUBE]HCdDKZtqcbM[/YOUTUBE]


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## Rocky (Mar 6, 2014)

I know I know, I'm only joking.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Ei took it without a scratch.



Eh, Mabui's words express they were initially uncertain about even Ay going through it, and if you pay attention Ay did actually take a few scratches. Look at his face:

_Before_

_After_.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I know I know, I'm only joking.



Did you enjoy the wiffle bat video?


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## Rocky (Mar 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Eh, Mabui's words express they were initially uncertain about even Ay going through it, and if you pay attention Ay did actually take a few scratches. Look at his face:
> 
> _Before_
> 
> _After_.




You're right, he was literally scratched, but I was using the phrase as an expression. He took the technique without any real injuries, just some scrapes. Tsunade took serious enough injuries to the point that she needed to use Kinjutsu. There's a clear difference.


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## Master Sephiroth (Mar 6, 2014)

If Gai can do what Lee did to Madara (which I believe he can), then he can win this.


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## ScottofFury (Mar 6, 2014)

It's a shame that Gai doesn't have a sword, then he would kill almost everyone. 

Tsunade could outlast Gai depending on Gai's attacks. But Gai could kick her neck and kill her.


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## LostSelf (Mar 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Mabui's teleport destroys people not Sandaime tough.  Sandaime was taking minimal damage from FRS and top tier slicing futons.  Kunai aren't doing anything to people in or around that tier of durability.



But Tsunade is not the kind of Raikages.



> Byako is a healing jutsu on the level of Hashirama, someone who was in a class of his own in every jutsu.  You're not overcoming that with a kunai.



Gai doesn't need to overcome the jutsu that works eternally unless the user runs out of chakra. Gai just needs to make her waste a considerable amount of chakra to the point of not fighting back. Byakugo will not heal her wounds faster than how Gai can inflict damage on her, though.

We also don't know if her jutsu is on the level of Hashirama either.



> You can doubt Orochimaru's neck strength, but I doubt the strength and durability and sharpness of a kunai compared to a legendary sword.  Supposing Guy would have enough strength in gates to cut through her head with a kusunagi, I don't think that feat could be replicated with an iron kunai, because the tool is insufficient for the job.  At the very, very least, Tsunade's bones are going to be as tough as the Pain Rods Naruto and others casually broke, and cutting through those broke a heck of a lot of superior steel swords and saws in a controlled laboratory setting.
> 
> I'm not buying it.


Gai is not cutting through her head with a Kunai, that was not the point i stated. I said Gai can give her multiple slashes in her throat at the speed of Asa Kujaku, overcoming Byakugo's regeneration speed by much.

Maybe it's just me, but i don't see Tsunade being durable enough that a Kunai will fail in letting a cut, even if minuscule, i dare to say that Gai can leave a cut and make her bleed even if he doesn't inflict a bad wound if he cuts her neck or slow her down. 

I just don't see her tanking hundred of super sonic slashes in her neck and coming without a wound, especially if Gai targets some two or three parts, and the Kunai breaking or doing nothing, though.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Mar 6, 2014)

Gai has massive stamine.  He went from fighting Kisame to fighting in the war to fighting the tailed beasts and Obito to fighting Madara...  Just a straight run of constant fighting over multiple days.

Tsunade is not outlasting Gai.


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## Mithos (Mar 6, 2014)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Gai has massive stamine.  He went from fighting Kisame to fighting in the war to fighting the tailed beasts and Obito to fighting Madara...  Just a straight run of constant fighting over multiple days.
> 
> Tsunade is not outlasting Gai.



Tsunade has two massive chakra reserves: her own natural reserves and the reserves in her seal. She can heal thousands of injured at once (healing is stated to consume a lot of chakra) and can fight for a long time while regenerating. 

The Gates take a large toll on Gai, which is why he turns them on and off because he can't sustain very long assaults without exhausting himself. 

Tsunade's Byakugou will outlast the Gates, especially if she summons Katsuyu for extra protection.


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## Joakim3 (Mar 6, 2014)

Gai gets outlasted, nothing changes. 

He'll only win via 8th gate at which point the match ends in a draw


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## Mercurial (Mar 6, 2014)

Gai is a lot, a lot faster and switfter even in base (just read chapter 595... he is a master of taijutsu in skill, Tsunade just casually kicks and punches around, often being easily dodged and leaving openings to his enemies) and the difference in speed and power with Gates is astonishing, Gated Gai would abuse of Tsunade like a ragdoll. He carries kunai with him so he can simply blitz her head away (just think that Zabuza could decapitate a normal human with a kunai in his mouth... sure Tsunade is a lot tougher but Gated Gai's strength and speed is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nearly dead Zabuza's mouth of course. A combo of kicks, punches and nunchaku, that she can't absolutely keep up in skill and speed, would stomp her, and the finishing Asa Kujaku or Hiru Tora would be the end. 

Feats shouldn't be even needed, when Gai has the portrayal of Kakashi's rival and of one of the big players, for what he did in this war.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Mar 6, 2014)

Where the fuck is Jad? He usually has whooped out a giant essay by now.


But, back to the thread, it depends on how well Tsunade can tank Gai's attacks. I'd say blunt force trauma is less likely to work, but if Gai is able to sever a vital part of her body from the rest, I'll give him the win. If he can't, the Godaime outlasts him.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 6, 2014)

Tsunade's neck > Gated Gai's techniques ?

Her body was fucking split by a falling tree. 

People are acting as if Tsunade has indefinite Yata Mirror surrounding her with a fucking V2 Jin cloak underneath.

Morning Peacock would kill her, Afternoon Tiger would kill her, and a single kick to the head would liquefy her brain, shatter her skull and sever it from her neck. Unless, of course, people actually believe the first sentence in my statement in that her neck muscle is stronger than Gai's gated strikes, in which case I'd refuse to reply.


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## iJutsu (Mar 6, 2014)

Tsunade isn't tanking anything if her head explodes on the first hit. She has strength, but that doesn't mean she has any defenses. She only relies on regen, which won't work if her head is gone.

A casual punch from 7th gate Gai knocked Kisame out. She's not gonna outlast Gai if she's asleep.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2014)

Every cell of Hashirama is a plot device.
Her uncle chakra senses so hard he breaks walls.
Her grandmother housed the 100% kyuubi that Minato stated was impossible for anyone.
Even crappy Karen can attack through total mokuton impalement because she's an Uzumaki.
Madara can block Ei hits and tank juubi pinball because he's part Hashirama and has regeneration.

Tsunade is definitely normal.


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## Rocky (Mar 6, 2014)

Do you think sharp metal is just going to break on Tsunade's skin?


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## joshhookway (Mar 6, 2014)

How does Tsunade survive a nunchaku to the face?


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## trance (Mar 6, 2014)

Why do I feel like Tsunade's regeneration is constantly overestimated? Oh wait, it is.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 6, 2014)

Gai murders her, how is this even a debate? Juubidara couldn't react to 7 gated Gai, why would Tsunade?

He strikes her with Tiger and kills her.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 6, 2014)

I don't know if tsunade can just sit there and take a onslaught of weapons(kunai and chucks)+ the physical beating guy will be giving out. Madara showed if you just keep taking damage you will start to bleed and even lose limbs and shit even with hashirama's regen.

Guy using a 7th gated hidden lotus(kunai can be included but it's optional i guess) which tsunade cannot defend herself from in anyway due to the speed followed by a afternoon tiger chomping down on her and blowing up might just break her despite her massive resilience.


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## ueharakk (Mar 6, 2014)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Gai has massive stamine.  He went from fighting Kisame to fighting in the war to fighting the tailed beasts and Obito to fighting Madara...  Just a straight run of constant fighting over multiple days.
> 
> Tsunade is not outlasting Gai.



didn't he get healed like tons of times in between all of that?


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## Veracity (Mar 6, 2014)

With Katusyu Tsunade can outlast. Only way Gai can win is if he used he 8th gate. But logically it's a draw. People act as of Gai is just going to power into 7th gate auto against Tsunade ? Lol.


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## Tarot (Mar 6, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Morning Peacock would kill her, Afternoon Tiger would kill her, and a single kick to the head would liquefy her brain, shatter her skull and sever it from her neck. Unless, of course, people actually believe the first sentence in my statement in that her neck muscle is stronger than Gai's gated strikes, in which case I'd refuse to reply.


yet a random fodder with 30% of Kisame's chakra managed to take Asakujaku without losing any ligaments.


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 6, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Morning Peacock would kill her



Killing techniques tend to bring such results, yes.

Yuura of the Sunagakure was bludgeoned to death a hundred times over.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Do you think sharp metal is just going to break on Tsunade's skin?



If I wanted to argue that, I'd say this.

Susano swords get stuck in her. 


We know what happens to Susano vs Kunai.  Danzo showed us.


But I'll meld the rest of this response with my one to *Lost Self*.



> Maybe it's just me, but i don't see Tsunade being durable enough that a Kunai will fail in letting a cut, even if minuscule, i dare to say that Gai can leave a cut and make her bleed even if he doesn't inflict a bad wound if he cuts her neck or slow her down.



I'm content to say it's not going to go through her bones, and she's not going to die from it, or it's not going to happen.  Anything failing a decapitation is just going to get regenerated, because fatal wounds don't kill certain character sets.  I used to think regen would grow back limbs, but the manga showed otherwise, so I don't think that anymore.  As for why I think so highly of her regen, and her ability to live through it, you can both read the next parts where I respond to some person I didn't quote properly.  




> Why do I feel like Tsunade's regeneration is constantly overestimated? Oh wait, it is.



It's overestimated by Madara then.

Madara states Hashirama is Hashirama class in everything.


You're not Hashirama class in anything.



ZOMG that's the same jutsu Hashirama used!  Madara has magic eyeballs that decipher and analyse every detail about jutsu, as well as have extensive knowledge of his rival in order to confirm this as an actual authority on the matter.


Then he gets happy he has Hashirama's regen and lets bijuu play pinball with him, and gets smashed so hard he arm pops off, all while being held down by Gaara's internal sand bullets, but I suppose I should believe none of the repeated impacts touched him on the throat, or the face, or hit his skull with enough impact to cause brain damage or fractures despite how they shattered a (possibly sage enhanced possibly not) susano, because that would have out-paced his regeneration and left him unable to hop out of assault.  It continued long enough that by Guy going to town with a kunai standards, would have left him assuredly dead.  But I find that all really hard to swallow, so I prefer to just take Madara's simple explanation, and Madara is content to attribute his survival to Hashirama's regeneration.  

So I'm content to attribute it to his regeneration.  I'm also content to take Madara's word for it that he knows Hashirama's regeneration when he sees it.  So I'm also content to say that Tsunade and Hashirama and Madara all have the same jutsu.  I'm content with that because it's stated to me in the manga, and also because Kishi is not a person who likes to functionally differentiate.  Which is exemplified in Tobirama's hiraishin, which so many people thought would be different in mysterious and unknown ways, turned out to be exactly the same as Minato's.  If people disagree with that, and choose to read and interpret the panels differently, that's fine.  

If you like your Tsunade with the concept of her being more regular than all her other relatives, that's fine.  I used to think that too, and it was fun.  I don't believe it anymore, for the reasons I've stated, but if you enjoy her as a character more if she's not, then by all means.  I'm still going to lol at the strongest regenerative technique outside of edo tensei being defeated by a kunai, because I enjoy the manga more when that stays as not a thing that happens.  That's how I read an interpret the panels, and I don't find it at all at odds with the statements and portrayal and reactions of others who all state that she can't die in battle, and who reaffirm her character themes being ones strength and resilience and endurance and survival and regeneration.  Hence why she was the only one of the Sannin to survive until Orochimaru's revival, and why Kishi cut away to Dan and Chouza telling us that Tsunade can't die even if Madara is the one trying to kill her right before she tanked a stab, and why she was the only one of the Gokage to wake up after Madara was sure he killed them all, and save them.  Which doesn't mean I think she can tank FRS or jinton, but those events influence my perceptions of jutsu and their limits in addition to feats, even though feats are the only thing we talk about here.  I do this for every character though, because it's how I read my battle mangos, and I don't try to "out smart" the techniques and portrayal, because that's not how I feel you should read stories, or what you should take away from them, or what would happen in them.

Anyway, I think I've explained myself every which way I know how, so I'm out.  It's been actually kind of fun.


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## Jad (Mar 7, 2014)

I’ve tried to encompass everybody’s points, most of them are just “Gai is outlasted”. However, people need to look at everything.

*Tsunade’s Bones*​
*Sasuno Bones*: Her bones are not better than a rib cage Sasuno, which Ei was able to break on impact with a general Karate chop. It was not his usual ration slice though, as the Sasuno bones shatter on impact. Base Bee was also around Ei’s level of strength, until he overpowered him, well he still is. So, Gai using gates is throwing punches and kicks weaker than a karate chop from Ei or Base Bee? I highly doubt it.

*Kimimaro Bones *: Kimimaro bones were stated to be at steel level, is Tsunade body at steel level? Was Tsunade even in Kabuto’s vocabulary when he said that?I highly doubt it. Although, the Sasuno swords were able to slice through it easily, but how does that relate to Tsunade? It doesn’t.

*Kabuto punch *: When Kusangi level Tsunade (as her fans like to say), punched Tsunade. Did she budge? No, worse, she instead went flying into Shizune’s arms. Don’t you think Kabuto would have made a little comment? Don’t you think Tsunade wouldn’t have been lifted off her feet from such a punch?

*Gai kicks her in half *​
Gai has shown in the second gate alone he is able to save Kakashi from an instant explosion by Juubidara, while moving during a double Kamui warp. That would be faster than a Base Kyuubi Lee. However, we no adamantly that Gai could have easily replicated the feat of cutting Madara at 7th Gate, a named character, and a character who surpasses the imagination. Refer above to Tsunade’s bones.

*Kunai to the head, Kunai to the neck*​
A kunai wielded by a Gated Gai, can lop off her head, quite easily. Not only that but he can impale it in her head and leave it there. Cognitive abilities are absolutely ruined at that point.

For one, Tsunade has not shown she is more durable then a Kunai.  Her father Hashirama was about to commit a suicide with one. Also as a side note, please bear in mind Gai wielding a kunai at the speeds he does will eclipse anything shown in the following examples:

Itachi slashing the hand off of Orochimaru, a realistic durable character. 
Shikamaru slashing Hidan's neck,
Hidan being skewered by his own scythe (nothing special about it), 
Kisame being ripped apart by the teeth of sharks. 
Minato was going to gutter Bee with a simple Kunai (weirdly shaped but no special properties). 
Mifune cutting Hanzou pretty deeply across the head and body with no Hien activated, I think he nearly bisected him. 
How about the Kunai's piercing Kisame's arm by Aoba. 
Don't forget the shurikens that perirced the partial Hachibi hand.
 Minato slashing a gut full of the durable OBITO! [x]
 Tobirama was willing to fight Madara with a Kunai. Someone who is one of the smartest ninja's in the manga, and very knowledgable on everything. *Using a Kunai* [x].
Obito phasing two Kunai attacks to the head by Minato
Senju’s, and lesser Uchiha, in the war were dying by arrows, kunais, and katanas [there are panels ask if you want to see] (etc.). Thus leading me to my next point.

*Tsunade Cells*​
I understand, Senju cells are quite the plot device – no, her father’s cells moreso. But wait a minute, Yamato has Senju DNA too, in fact he has soo much of it he can use Mokuton. But his no more durable then say Kakashi. Uzumaki genes are great, they have great life force, resiliency is something Tsunade has shown. But why does that matter when your extreme critical areas are damaged? Getting kicked in half, being roasted, and having your skull crushed. Resiliency doesn’t help in those regards.

*7 Gates Combo*​
Gai at 7 Gates was able to use Afternoon Tiger, which did not grab hold of Kisame, and followed it up with a punch to knock him out. Let’s remember, Kisame with his stomach blasted open did not go unconscious. So let’s take a serious 7 Gated Gai, perform the consecutive Combo’s he did on Juubidara to Tsunade, and finish it off with Afternoon Tiger. How will Tsunade taking extreme accelerated force to the head still not get knocked out? Let alone die. Refer to my above post about bones. Let’s take a look at her healing prowess.

*Tsunade’s Regeneration Ability *​
Never shown healing to the region of the head area, and importantly, never in an unconscious state, as it is featless. I mean this is important, because for one, her diamond spreads the seal from her forehead. Here is an example, the Mokuton bindings releasing after Gai hit Madara with Afternoon tiger. There is always some form of concentration or consciousness for a technique to continue working.

Tsunade’s healing also takes time, for example she didn’t stop healing from when she got knocked by Yasa Magtama, to when the 25 Madara clones appeared. Tsunade has also never shown to syphon broken bones embedded throughout her body, only re-create them.

Secondly, please do not compare the level of Hashirama’s ability to the same ability as Tsunade. They may perform the same, but the levels of the jutsu may be different. At any rate, Hashirama himself has never healed head injuries nor regrow limbs. So while we can compare Tsunade healing properties to him, the level of it can be different. E.g. healing faster, using less chakra. It makes sense since Madara does not form a seal around his body, that’s one difference, there could be more.

Also why is it laughable head injuries cannot be healed to your standards? Kishimoto has consecutively not shown us head injuries being healed. His been consistent like that. Funny, I even pointed out Madara’s forehead blood didn’t disappear as opposed to the blood on his body that did. I don’t even consider that a coincidence.

Also as a side note, let’s not compare Madara’s ability to regenerate what damages he received to Tsunade. As he did have Sage Chakra coursing through his veins, which bolsters ninjutsu techniques, and importantly, durability. Let’s be content with that.

*Morning Peacock *​
Morning Peacock was not only said by Kisame that the target would be destroyed, but it also vaporized an entire collapsing Tsunami wave of water. Dosu states the human body is made out of 70% of water, Tsunade has yet to break that illusion with her body. Gai fanned out his flames to vaporize all that water, what happens when he chooses one point on a target? Please do not reference Chapter 258 – we are passed that and on 506.

Yes, Tsunade arms got burnt and she punched away Madara’s Katons. For one, Madara’s katons were of lesser size then his usual. Every other time he has used a Katon, it eclipsed and dwarfed people. You have to remember, Madara used Katon while half his body was being torn away from his soul. Perhaps this is why Kishi chose to make Mei defend Tsunade from the better Katon that would have replaced her body in fire, rather show us how far Byakugon can take you.

*Final Statement *​
This isn’t about Gai’s strength anymore, because he has some of the craziest feats in that regard, shattering boulders in base, tripping Gedo Mazou, Lee cutting Madara (well less about strength more about skill), Obito’s statement of it being impressive, as well as Obito choosing to go intangible rather then take a hit and Kamui Gai. In fact, look at the speed boost Gai gets from base to 7 Gates, don’t you believe his strength would absolutely sky rocket to? At any rate, this is about Tsunade. I don’t ever, hardly ever use this word, but for this one character, Tsunade, I believe people overrate Tsunade’s body toughness way too much.

Every character’s major points have been highlighted in this manga, from speed, to taijutsu prowess, to techniques, to anything, at least once. Hell even in the data book. Kishi has been very consistent in that regard. Tsunade’s body toughness (durability) has never, ever, been mentioned once, not even implied. So why are people putting her on this high pedestal? Maybe they believe Tsunade’s regeneration can heal all damages. Refer to my posts about Tsunade’s healing.​


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## Joakim3 (Mar 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> didn't he get healed like tons of times in between all of that?



He was lol

He was healed by Naruto via Kurama and when Tsuande & Sakura summoned 1/10th Katsuya


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## trance (Mar 7, 2014)

Wow. I forgot the NBD is full of posters who are into the wall of text/TL;DR styles of debating.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 7, 2014)

> rib cage Sasuno, which Ei was able to break on impact with a general Karate chop. It was not his usual ration slice though, as the Sasuno bones shatter on impact.



Onoki backpack Ei uses his raiton chop on Madara's susano, and it shatters/breaks susano.  That's just what Susano does when it breaks. 



> Kabuto punch :



Hemophelia.  Check the response I made about Ei and Juugo and bracing.  It had sumos.



> Yamato has Senju DNA too, in fact he has soo much of it he can use Mokuton. But his no more durable then say Kakashi.



Yamato got stabbed by a chidori-gatana and had chidori flowed through his insides.  He pushed the sword out and pushed Sasuke away.  That wound was never healed or treated, he just went on with it.  That's pretty good considering a chidori taser dropped Bee, even with raiton resistance.  



> Tsunade has not shown she is more durable then a Kunai. Her father Hashirama was about to commit a suicide with one.



I've responded to this before too.  The focus of the scene was that Hashirama was willing to kill himself.  It would have been distracting for Kishi to draw an elaborate plan or involve some crazy Hashirama suicide jutsu, when he wanted a dramatic moment.  If what you got out of that scene was that Hashirama will die from a kunai to the stomach, I don't think you're reading the scene with any regard to narrative and author intention.  I feel it would be like looking at the scene where Kakashi and guy are fighting bijuu, and Kakashi is holding a regular kunai, and then surmising from that that Kakashi intends to kill multiple bijuu with a simple kunai, after his raikiri had already failed on lesser forms.  You _can_ think that, or you can think that Kishi wanted a cool panel of the two masters back to back, and Kakashi looked cooler with a kunai.

I'm not convinced, but I won't trash on your interpretation.  If you want to think Tsunade's durability is over-rated because it should be below that of the simplest ninja tool, or that the only difference between a legendary sword and a kunai is how hard and fast you swing it, okay.  There was that panel that said a rock can beat a kunai if the wielder is more skilled, so there's always that.

I wasn't going to come back, but Guy vs Tsunade is never complete with you.


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## Jad (Mar 7, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Onoki backpack Ei uses his raiton chop on Madara's susano, and it shatters/breaks susano.  That's just what Susano does when it breaks.



It was a weighted chop. Onoki and Ei were going for power. It makes sense since he was going for power to compliment Tsunade's frontal assult. Your not making sense, Raiton slices - slice, not crumble and crack.





> Hemophelia.  Check the response I made about Ei and Juugo and bracing.  It had sumos.



Doesn't matter, Tsunade would not have been blasted that far back if her bones were that sturdy. Kabuto's bones would have most likely broken on impact, he'd have made a comment at the least. Kishi is consistent on making points like that be made.



> Yamato got stabbed by a chidori-gatana and had chidori flowed through his insides.  He pushed the sword out and pushed Sasuke away.  That wound was never healed or treated, he just went on with it.  That's pretty good considering a chidori taser dropped Bee, even with raiton resistance.



Your point is? He can transform parts of his body in to Mokuton. That wound was probably closed by Mokuton temporarily. Considering the wound technically closes when the wood escapes the point of impact.



> I've responded to this before too.  The focus of the scene was that Hashirama was willing to kill himself.  It would have been distracting for Kishi to draw an elaborate plan or involve some crazy Hashirama suicide jutsu, when he wanted a dramatic moment.  If what you got out of that scene was that Hashirama will die from a kunai to the stomach, I don't think you're reading the scene with any regard to narrative and author intention.  I feel it would be like looking at the scene where Kakashi and guy are fighting bijuu, and Kakashi is holding a regular kunai, and then surmising from that that Kakashi intends to kill multiple bijuu with a simple kunai, after his raikiri had already failed on lesser forms.  You _can_ think that, or you can think that Kishi wanted a cool panel of the two masters back to back, and Kakashi looked cooler with a kunai.



You use a lot of foot work to make your point. But, he had a Kunai aimed at his stomach and was about to commit seppuku, like Kakashi's dad. Madara knew the seriousness of the situations, someone who knows Hashirama like an open book, same with Tobirama. They both knew he was going to kill himself. I read that scene exactly how Kishi wanted us to read.

1. Hashirama serious about killing himself with a Kunai
2. Tobirama and Madara reactions to it

Also, Raiton Kunai's would have injured the Bijuu's (not going to say how much), since his raiton chain cut through several chakra arms with ease. Plus we don't know how he was doing to deal with all the Bijuu's or how he wanted to kill them. You assume he intended with Kunai's, you don't know Kakashi's character very well then. He may have had some form of plan, and the Kunai's were there in retaliation to attacks for counter. Like a Chakra arms he needed to slice. Kamui all of them in one spot was probably what he wanted to do.

My entire argument was not JUST based on a simple Kunai. But a simple Kunai weilded by a pro who can slash you at the fastest speeds ever generated in the manga, and puncture you with the fastest speed in the manga, sounds a bit better then saying "Simple Kunai" byitself. 

Hey, simple Kunai got rid of Orochimaru's hand, hey simple Shark teeths got rid of Kisame's existence, hey, simple weapons killed Senju's, hey simple Katana inflicted life threatening wounds on Madara, hey Madara thought a slash from a simple Scythe was enough to beat Hashirama, hey a simple scythe with no special properties skewered Hidan. *Here is one I forgot*, Minato was going to gutter Bee with a simple Kunai. Well, weirdly shaped Kunai, but no special properties, hey Minato slashed Obito with a simple kunai a bucket of blood came out Seriously, just look at the list I gave you.

Yet Tsunade is excused because she is, Tsunade woman made of diamond? I even threw out more examples in my "Tsunade Bones" section, that back all my points up.

But you know, Tsunade didn't have to cover her head from Asura Path's sharp metal object, because you know, can't pierce her and all. No, Kishi didn't want us to think Tsunade needed saving from that attack or anything.


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## Veracity (Mar 7, 2014)

Wait wut... ?

You are saying that because Kabuto could punch Tsunade pretty far( even though she couldn't physically move and any Shinobi could punch her away) that means she doesn't have sturdy bones ? And that if she had sturdy bones then Kabuto would have broken his own bones upon impact ? First of off, we both know damn well that Kishi couldn't give a shit about emphasizing the pressure inflicted upon the bones when striking a 90 pound old lady, and second, wouldn't that contradict the fact that Tsunade can shatter sturdy structures like body/ribcage Sussano and maintain zero bone cracks or breaks?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 7, 2014)

Chidori Kusunagi vs kunai.


Chidori kusunagi vs Ei's neck.


Minato's kunai vs Ei's back.


First off, does anyone find a problem with this?

Secondly, if I were to believe that it's the force and speed behind the kunai, then I would be lead to believe that Guy's 7th gate thrust kunai would win the match up with Sasuke's chidori kusunagi.  I don't accept that happening.


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## Mercurial (Mar 7, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Tsunade's neck > Gated Gai's techniques ?
> 
> Her body was fucking split by a falling tree.
> 
> ...


Repped for soloing.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 7, 2014)

Gai murders Tsunade.


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## Hossaim (Mar 7, 2014)

Gai can kick faster than Tsunade can regen by about 8 speed brackets. 

and that's in base.


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## Source (Mar 7, 2014)

Tsunade will "outlast" him? 

What will she do about a kick blowing her head off, or MP/AT ripping her apart?


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## Orochibuto (Mar 7, 2014)

Gai destroys her WITH A KICK AT 300 KM/H


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 7, 2014)

Gai beats her. Titles mean shit ...


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## Orochibuto (Mar 13, 2014)

Gai grope her, then kill her.


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## Mithos (Mar 13, 2014)

Source said:


> Tsunade will "outlast" him?
> 
> What will she do about a kick blowing her head off, or MP/AT ripping her apart?



We've seen Gated Gai kick people in the face - their heads did not explode and their necks didn't break. 

We've seen MP and AT hit people and neither of them were blown or ripped apart. 

Try again.


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## Jad (Mar 13, 2014)

I don't know about you, but I saw Gai kicking Kisame in the jaw and we have no idea if he broke his neck or not, he just started pummelling his body. And we didn't even see where Gai was aiming, he could have just been aiming at the torso, not the head. Perhaps so he can recognize who the guy is after beating him. Which he actually did, since he went up to examine the body. His Torso was probably messed up but his jacket covered the mess most likely. Also keep up, that feats was like 400 chapters ago.

Afternoon Tiger was used to most probably capture Kisame, but beating him was an indirect consequence to the true nature of the move. Which was to kill all the sharks. Aoba even said we can get some valuable info if we catch Kisame while Gai was around.

Thirdly, Afternoon Tiger had enough power that Madara could not control the Mokuton Binding on the Hachibi whilst in Sasuno. And Lastly, Lee has kicked someone in half moving slower then Gai, yes with Kyuubi cloak in base, and not as strong/powerful as a 7th Gated Gai. Tsunade is not surviving a bisection from Gai to the head. It's just not happening. His outputting way too much power that Tsunade head can just "_lol nothing happened_" I mean his speed increase is enough alone to suggest how overly powerful his strength output is.

Then you have all those points I've made at the top, including, *oh my god, a Kunai*. Ya know, that thing that made Obito look like a blood water fountain when Minato strikes him with a Kunai How about Mr. Intelligent Second Hokage he invents Jutsu's and knows everything, willing to fight Madara with a Kunai, since his speed is probably enough to deal deadly damage.​


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## Blu-ray (Mar 13, 2014)

Are you serious? Gai is not killing Tsunade with a punch, kick, Kunai, or anything else he has shown. It's like you people are outright ignoring what Byakugo does. It's supposed to make her immune to all that. The bitch outright said she can't die by any means while using it. While that statement is debatable, I'm certainly not going to say Gai kills her when he couldn't even knock out friggin Kisame with his strongest attack. The fact that people think ordinary punches and kicks are going to accomplish what Hirodora can't is freaking ludicrous. He can probably take it depending on what evening elephant does though, but no way is he killing her outside of that.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 13, 2014)




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## fior fior (Mar 13, 2014)

Can't Gai just break all her bones, cut her into tiny pieces and bury her in the ground ala Hidan?

I should probably go back and read what the mindset and knowledge are, though..

No mindset specified and there are no restrictions so I don't see why this can't happen.


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## Jad (Mar 13, 2014)

Gai at 6th Gate should be Sasuno rib cage breaking level. One punch in 6th gate. I mean Gai in chapter 258 was able to smack kisame so hard he hit the ocean bed and caused a crater. And that was from a large distance from where Gai hit him. Which is sort of similar to Ei smack Juugo in the wall with his elbow. Secondly, Ei at stand still position did a Karate chop and broke a few ribs on Sasuno. Also Gai  had the power to trip Gedomazou. Ei's stand still punches cause a decently sized crater. You  can see it after he breaks suigetus blade and his punch smacks the ground.


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## Veracity (Mar 13, 2014)

Gai also landed a direct AT on Kisames forehead and then proceeded to land the most direct 7th gated punch possible and Kisame woke up in fighting condition. His base hits aren't that strong tbh. It's just his techniques that are.


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## LostSelf (Mar 13, 2014)

Gedo Mazo felt pain when Gai hit him. The same Gedo Mazo that blocked a heavy punch from Chouji. Of course, in my humble opinion i do not see Gai one shotting Tsunade. However, i do just see Gai greatly outpacing her regen since his attacks are massively faster than Byakugo's regen.

Therefore, Tsunade will likely get a point were Byakugo's healing speed no longer can keep up with Gai's striking speed, and it would be like not having it.

Too bad i will never convince TPOW


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## Veracity (Mar 13, 2014)

I ain't even arguing about him being able to kill Tsunade. In my honest opinion, if he got a clean shot with a Kunai he could casually behead her. But there is many problems with this IMO
1) Gai is never going to get a clean shot on the taijustu master Tsunade without her atleast being laced with slugs to block damage.
2) Kishi would never let Gai Justu effortlessly cut off Tsunades head, and I just don't see it happening.
3) Gai isn't going to use a damn Kunai. He never ever has in a battle even when it's practical.
4) Kishi hyped her regen enough to be able to survive this, despite the flawed art with Madara who doesn't even posses the same regeneration as Tsunades.

Can you link me to where Gedo was tripped?

Also I think Gais strength is heavily overrated. We can use Kisame to basically scale everything lol. 

Kisame was coughing up blood and was in pain from one flash shunshin hit from Naruto ; (1)

Then took a direct AT and a direct 7th gated hit to the stomach( same place Naruto hit him) and looked like this after; (1)


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## RBL (Mar 13, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I ain't even arguing about him being able to kill Tsunade. In my honest opinion, if he got a clean shot with a Kunai he could casually behead her. But there is many problems with this IMO
> 1) Gai is never going to get a clean shot on the taijustu master Tsunade without her atleast being laced with slugs to block damage.
> 2) Kishi would never let Gai Justu effortlessly cut off Tsunades head, and I just don't see it happening.
> 3) Gai isn't going to use a damn Kunai. He never ever has in a battle even when it's practical.
> ...



kisame stated he was weakened, that's why in the next chapter he was draining chakra from B and the other guys.


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## LostSelf (Mar 13, 2014)

About how Gai could kill her was just an extra add i wanted to put .

I actually don't see Tsunade preventing Gai from hitting her, though. Considering his speed in gates i see him blitzing her.

I cannot argue second point, though.

Third point depends. If Gai knows he can be outlasted, he might do it. He is not the smartest out there but i think he can figure it out.

About Kisame, remember Gai trained in the hyperbolic time chamber and his Hirudora not only got faster, but probably damaged Madara through his Susano'o since the Mokuton's power lost all the power and Bee was set free when Hirudora exploded.

But my whole point on Gai vs Tsunade is not killing her with Hirudora, my point is besting her regen with his insane stricking speed. Even though i see the statements of her outlasting very logical too, therefore just take it as my opinion.

*Edit: I will look for the scan of Gedo, i forgot.*


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## Rocky (Mar 13, 2014)

When did Gai train in he RoSaT? Wrong Manga. Was that a metaphor?


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## LostSelf (Mar 13, 2014)

This scan is, Likes Boss.

*Rocky*: He didn't and yes, it was a metaphor. People says Gai improved too much in the war only, his speed was retconned, etc. Wich is why i say he trained in the chamber and got that powerful, along with Kakashi .


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## iJutsu (Mar 14, 2014)

Why do people think Gai was trying to kill Kisame? You can't get info about akatsuki if he's dead. Gai isn't stupid, he is only bad with names.


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## Jad (Mar 14, 2014)

Additionally, why would Gai use his hardest punch when he has Kisame right where he wants him. He was going for a knock out blow, not a kill blow. As a taijutsu master, you would think he knows the difference between distributing power into a killing blow and a knock out blow.

Also secondly, Gai canonically used Samehada against Kisame, so why would using a Kunai be any different? He may be a taijutsu master, but surely using a Kunai as a difference between life and death is something he would consider in mid-battle. However, I choose to debate him using a Kunai to beat Tsunade as my way to end this debate, against Gai and Tsunade. But a method is a method, you can't just say "No, he won't use a Kunai." I mean he used Samehada.....

I whole heartedly believe Gai has enough strength in him to break Tsunade's skull. His been consistetly shown to be a powerhouse with his strength. Just some notable examples and reasons;

 Obito saying how he was impressed by Gai effortlessly smashing a boulder (way bigger then himself) into pieces. I feel like Tsunade's layer of skull is not tough enough to take a glancing blow of that level and not get damaged. Especially when you compare the size of that boulder to the thickness of her skull. Seriously, Obito, a bad guy at the time, complimented Gai's strength, yet people are saying they don't believe Gai's base strength is impressive? Even when the protagonist of the manga does? Whaaat...
 Being able to uproot boulders the size of an adult sized person, after first smacking Gedomazou's foot.
 Being able to send Kisame from a distance, into the bottom of the ocean were even the force then was able to crack and cause a crater with the body (victim). In 6th Gate of course.
 Obito choosing to phase then take ANY of Gai's hits, even when his in position to Kamui someone in another dimension (that was shown several times).
 Just the massive speed boost he gets from the 7th Gate should be enough of an indication on how much strength Gai is also amassing. His outputting WAY too much power.
 Then take the Lee cleaving through Madara's body example. That should quite easily be equatable to Gai.

I mean how thick is Tsunade's skull really.


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## Veracity (Mar 14, 2014)

Because he could has mortally wounded him right there lol? He needed him alive Jad. Not in freaking fighting condition. Kisame had the freaking strength to physically muscle out of a Moukton Justu. If Gai had properly done his job then he would have stayed unconscious and even if he was conscious then he wouldn't have been able to catch them all by surprise by snapping magical wood then casting a Justu.

It's also to note that all that Gai landed this direct hit after a DIRECT hit with his strongest gated attack. An attack he can only use once while in the freaking 7th gate. The excuse that Kisame took basically no damage due to Gai trying to not injure him is a very poor argument. A direct hit like that, from a gated Gai should have caused severe damage even if he pulled his punches. That is if Gai could actually punch hard. Ya know ? Rusty Tsuande can create fissures in the ground with her finger. Current Tsunade while pulling back would have torn Kisames chest into 34 sections separated sections of muscle.

Also him using Kisames sword against him in a situation where the sword was basically at his disposal is completely different from him pulling a Kunai out and using it in battle despite specializing in taijustu attacks, AND only using those said attacks when nothing else is at his disposal( that run on sentence though).  I honestly have doubts to Tsunade using a Kunai either lol. She's a taijustu user that specializes in fluid attacks, most notably well placed one shot kills. I also honestly see Gai just striking her over and over again with fiery attacks before he resorts to a Kunai( completley out if character). Gais pretty dumb btw.


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## Jad (Mar 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Because he could has mortally wounded him right there lol? He needed him alive Jad. Not in freaking fighting condition. Kisame had the freaking strength to physically muscle out of a Moukton Justu. If Gai had properly done his job then he would have stayed unconscious and even if he was conscious then he wouldn't have been able to catch them all by surprise by snapping magical wood then casting a Justu.



This is easy to answer. He knocked him out, how'd he know he would power through after? Everyone was caught off by surprise.



> It's also to note that all that Gai landed this direct hit after a DIRECT hit with his strongest gated attack. An attack he can only use once while in the freaking 7th gate. The excuse that Kisame took basically no damage due to Gai trying to not injure him is a very poor argument. A direct hit like that, from a gated Gai should have caused severe damage even if he pulled his punches. That is if Gai could actually punch hard. Ya know ? Rusty Tsuande can create fissures in the ground with her finger. Current Tsunade while pulling back would have torn Kisames chest into 34 sections separated sections of muscle.



His attack did damage Kisame alot. Not saying it didn't, but he was told by Aoba "we can get some valuable information from this guy". So that would have been playing at the back of his head. The Afternoon Tiger was not for Kisame, it was for the sharks anyways in the first place. Why are we comparing Gai and Tsunade's strength? After Gai got on top of him he said "Don't move". As if he was going to take Kisame with him unconscious. But obviously he didn't comply, so he knocked him out. This whole Afternoon Tiger thing was proven when Madara could not regulate the Mokuton bindings on Hachibi. Straight after the blast.

Also remember, Kisame didn't get knocked out unconscious from having his stomach bleeding out from his body. So yeah...



> Also him using Kisames sword against him in a situation where the sword was basically at his disposal is completely different from him pulling a Kunai out and using it in battle despite specializing in taijustu attacks, AND only using those said attacks when nothing else is at his disposal( that run on sentence though).  I honestly have doubts to Tsunade using a Kunai either lol. She's a taijustu user that specializes in fluid attacks, most notably well placed one shot kills. I also honestly see Gai just striking her over and over again with fiery attacks before he resorts to a Kunai( completley out if character). Gais pretty dumb btw.



You know, I believe Gai can do more damage with his fists then a Kunai. But, you guys seem to think Gai throws fluffy pillows when it comes to Tsunade and only Tsunade...So hence the Kunai.

And oh please, out of character? A *ninja* using a Kunai is out of character? If his blows aren't doing nothing to Tsunade, his going to be the biggest dummy, and keep repeating it? His going to pull out a Kunai. Of course this is *based on how people believe Gai's blows won't do anything to Tsunade*. Also how is Gai dumb? His comical character, sure. His socially awkward, sure. But when it comes to fighting his not dumb.

 Told Naruto to not use flashy moves against Obito
 Is technically advanced in Taijutsu and created his own moves
 Told the Jounin who saw his buddy died, to be calm and not get over his head.
 Had wise words to say to Kakashi in chapter 667.
 Great cooperation with his team.
 Understood to use Hirudora against the Sharks to box them in.
 Taught himself to fight by just looking at the opponents feet.

Gai when it comes to fighting, is serious, knows EXACTLY what moves to use, and what the situation calls for. His done that in all his fights. Like how he countered Six Tails Gas with Morning Peacock. Used 6th Gate to break out of the water to chase Kisame. The guy is *Jounin level*. Jounins should be able to know when to use a certain move or tool in a fight or situation. Espcially one as SIMPLE as a Kunai...

Like I said, Gai's strength is strong enough to beat Tsunade. Tsunade does not have the bones of Sasuno, which Gai's strength is able to break being comparable to Ei's strength (standing karate chop).

Also Morning Peacock has been called a killing Taijutsu always.


 Databook explanation (do I really need to reference/quote it?)
 Manga page [2]. Also damage to the ground with the body sort of resembles Ei _speeding_ elbow to Juugo's impact with the wall [3]. And Naruto's Odama Rasengan [4]. And just take into consideration, the body had to get through the bottom of the ocean, so it would have reduced the true impact.
 Kisame says how Morning Peacock destroys the target [5]. Kisame knows his shit "destroys the enemy".


*Spoiler*: _Additional quick and dirty examples of strength_ 






Jad said:


> I whole heartedly believe Gai has enough strength in him to break Tsunade's skull. His been consistently shown to be a powerhouse with his strength. Just some notable examples and reasons;
> 
> Obito saying how he was impressed by Gai effortlessly smashing a boulder (way bigger then himself) into pieces. I feel like Tsunade's layer of skull is not tough enough to take a glancing blow of that level and not get damaged. Especially when you compare the size of that boulder to the thickness of her skull. Seriously, Obito, a bad guy at the time, complimented Gai's strength, yet people are saying they don't believe Gai's base strength is impressive? Even when the protagonist of the manga does? Whaaat...
> Being able to uproot boulders the size of an adult sized person, after first smacking Gedomazou's foot.
> ...






So, Tsunade is going to laugh off the hit to the head? After all this evidence I have shown, after other characters (*bad guys*) statements on both his strength and technique.​


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## LostSelf (Mar 14, 2014)

When you want to take someone alive you don't mess him up so bad, at least, not in Naruto. For example, Pain could've broken all of Naruto's bones the same way he did to the Gama trio, but he never did. 

Gai might've just been cautious as well, but his goal was to capture, otherwise he would've finished Kisame when he had him beaten up too, and considering he ordered Kisame not to move indicates us that he wanted Kisame in a condition where he could speak. Maybe, and had no other option when Kisame tried to do something.


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## SSMG (Mar 14, 2014)

Guy beats tsunade in everthing

strength guy busts a susanno amd forces juubidara back. tsunade needs help cracking a weaker verison of the same charcters susanno.

speed guy blitz juubidara faster than even raikage can move. tsunade was stated to be slower than ei.

stamina tsunade has run out of chakra iirc three times in this war. guy only ran out once... not to mention guys gates technique is more taxing than tsunades.

durability guy just tanked the most destructive attack in the series while saving kakashi. tsunade got stabbed by a susanno sword.

now tsunade does have better healing... but that would just eat up chakra and have guy outlast her even soner.


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## Veracity (Mar 14, 2014)

Why are you arguing whether or not Gai has the strength to kill Tsunade lol? I was just arguing the gap in strength between the two. I already admitted in a previous post that if Gai got a perfectly clean hit off he should be able to perfectly injure her.

How could be afternoon tiger be used to handle the Sharks lol. The Sharks were were used to absorb Ninjustu, and AT is a taijustu attack. The sharks had virtually no effect basically, and AT powered through them and landed right on Kisame. Tell me right now , if Gai was so perfectly cautious in keeping him in "prime" condition( lol why the hell would be need him even in walking condition considering the Justu that was being used) then why did he insist on landing his strongest on Kisames face lol? Then landing a dead ass punch ? You can not he serious and say Gai was holding back with this fully extended punch into Kisames stomach; *Suiton*

I don't believe that gai was trying to pull his punches in any sense. Maybe he thought because Kisame had already survived his strongest punch in mint condition, that a regular punch wouldn't do anything ya know ? 

Madara's Mokuton losing it's binding is not bold proff that Madara's Sussano was shattered. He was probably just surprised being thrown 1000m  into an air explosion . It Kishi wanted to show the strentgh of AT why would he merely show him pushing the Sussano away? Why not just show him destroying it . I honestly think it was merely a way to get Madara out if the action and focus more on Obito. 

Yes a ninja using a Kunai is out if character jad. Especially when we have never seen him use it in combat. He even directly used the Kunai as a distraction and used his taijustu moves instead.

No he's not going to resort to Kunai father more powerful taijustu variants.

Absolutely none of those show any intelligence except for him using MP on e Bjuiis gas. And he only has two projectiles regardless, what else what he do ?


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## NarutoWinsByDefault (Mar 19, 2014)

Cant he just cave her skull in with his Nunchaku, I mean he's shown the be more than capable with them, especially against Obito.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

Gai wins this easily. EASILY now. He just spams Hirudora.


*Spoiler*: __ 



His been spamming Evening Elephant. Has had the gates up (7th and 8th) for almost two consecutive chapters. EVEN though he was ASS TIRED and needed Lee to carry him.




Maybe you guys should take me seriously when I say 7th Gate strength is enough to blitz/explode Tsunade's head off with a Kick. Pushing back Juubidara in the 7th Gate is no easy task, seeing as though Juubito broke out of Hashirama's Temple Seal, and crushed Sasuke's Sasunoo with ease.

Gai is too stronk!


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## Mithos (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad said:


> Gai wins this easily. EASILY now. He just spams Hirudora.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



AT/Gai's strength doesn't explode heads. We've seen it hit ninja and they haven't been torn apart or exploded.

Tsunade can survive AT with Byakugou and Katsuyu. Gai would be stupid to spam a technique that failed to kill Kisame against someone with Byakugou and greater feats of survivability as well as a defensive summon near impervious to physical attacks.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> AT/Gai's strength doesn't explode heads. We've seen it hit ninja and they haven't been torn apart or exploded.
> 
> Tsunade can survive AT with Byakugou and Katsuyu. Gai would be stupid to spam a technique that failed to kill Kisame against someone with Byakugou and greater feats of survivability as well as a defensive summon near impervious to physical attacks.



There are plethora of options for Gai to win this without resorting to 8th Gate. 

7th Gate kick to the face. I mean the guy did push back Juubidara, a person who thought Gai was underestimating him. Not the type of guy you would think would get pushed back after stating such a comment. Espcially when we take in the facts that Juubito casually broke Hashirama's Temple technique, and Sasuke's Sasuno.

And yeah, if magically, Tsunade survives one Hirudora, and Gai knows she can regenerate. Either he impales her head with a Kunai, or just cuts her head off (ala how he hovered over Kisame). Or he just spams Hirudora while her lifeless body attempts to heal consecutive damages that build up. Of course this happens after Gai gives her a 7 Gate combo similar to how he did so against Madara. You really have no leg to stand on when it comes Tsunade anymore. Gai has the feats backing him up. He has the tools (weapon). He has the techniques. Tsunade is getting beat. I have labelled the feats quite extensively in my opening post.

Then you have him being able to burn Tsunade quite heavily by focusing all his attacks on one portion of her body. With punches so hard they can crack Sasuno (comparable to Ei standing chop to Sasuke). I mean really, choose your poison as it is.​


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## Mithos (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad said:


> There are plethora of options for Gai to win this without resorting to 8th Gate.



No there aren't. 



> 7th Gate kick to the face. I mean the guy did push back Juubidara, a person who thought Gai was underestimating him. Not the type of guy you would think would get pushed back after stating such a comment. Espcially when we take in the facts that Juubito was casually broke Hashirama's Temple technique, and Sasuke's Sasuno.



A kick to the face is going to take out Tsunade? A kick to the face in the 6th gate didn't even take out a Shouten Kisame clone; and Gai's strongest attack before the 8th Gate, Afternoon Tiger, didn't even kill Kisame. MP, as well, didn't do any crazy body-breaking damage when it hit its target. 

He pushed Juubidara back with speed, hence Gaara's "his movements aren't human" comment. We've seen the result of his punches and kicks, including AT and MP, and they haven't shown a level of damage that would circumvent Byakugou. 



> And yeah, if magically, Tsunade survives one Hirudora, and Gai knows she can regenerate. Either he impales her head with a Kunai, or just cuts her head off 9ala how he hovered over Kisame). Or he just spams Hirudora while her lifeless body attempts to heal consecutive damages that build up. Of course this happens after Gai gives her a 7 Gate combo similar to how he did so against Madara. You really have no leg to stand on when it comes Tsunade anymore. Gai has the feats backing him up. He has the tools (weapon). He has the techniques. Tsunade is getting beat. I have labelled the feats quite extensively in my opening post.



I don't know how you can say "magically" when Kisame survived it without any type of regeneration whatsoever and his body wasn't broken. On the other hand, we've seen Tsunade still fight after having her spine severed and organs destroyed by Susano'o swords, and we've seen her survive and still continue to heal others after she'd been split in half. Gai's techniques don't do that kind of damage that we've seen her survive. We've also seen her survive slashes from Oro's Kusanagi and being teleported by Mabui's technique which rips a normal person apart. Tsunade also took a hit point blank from Yasaka Magatamas and was virtually unphased. She's got surprising durability coupled with resilence and hax regeneration .

I do have a leg to stand on and it's grounded in manga fact. You can claim that Gai's attacks with do so much damage but we've seen otherwise. 

You're completely ignoring Katsuyu in this match-up. You haven't answered how he overcomes her regeneration when she also has Katsuyu to help shield her. 

You're also ignoring Kishi's hype and portrayal regarding Byakugou. When Madara gained Hashirama's regeneration, reported to be similar to Tsunade's, he let himself get smashed and batted around by Bijuu and he laughed it off. A technique that makes being used as a ping pong ball by Bijuu not dangerous at all is not going to be so easily overwhelmed by Gai's attacks. Unless you think 7th Gated Gai's attacks are multiple times more powerful than the Bijuu. Cause the dmage from the Bijuu didn't even come close to making Madara fear for his life.


EDIT: I saw you added this 


> Then you have him being able to burn Tsunade quite heavily by focusing all his attacks on one portion of her body. With punches so hard they can crack Sasuno (comparable to Ei standing chop to Sasuke). I mean really, choose your poison as it is



Burn her quite heavily? If you mean MP, I don't know how you can claim that. As I keep saying we've seen his attacks land. MP didn't severely burn Shouten Kisame, whose real body was just some fodder. And I don't know where you're getting that MP dishes out punches that can crack Susano'o either. If that was the case, Shouten Kisame should have had his body destroyed but, again, that's not the case. 

And Byakugou has shown to be very effective against fighting severe burns. Tsunade batted away Madara's fireballs, which should be much more powerful than the ones from MP, and Byakugou easily took care of the burns. If Madara's fireballs are batted away and barely give her pause, Gai's MP created fireballs are not going to be a huge threat.


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## Veracity (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad are you seriously using the Juubito feat to assume that Gai could break free of the sage gates? If so you are very delusional thinking he's stronger then the Juubi lol. 

It's weird cause I remember his punch( after AT) not being able to even puncture the skin of Kisame. Now he can destroy sage god gates ? In the difference between 15 days ?


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> A kick to the face is going to take out Tsunade? A kick to the face in the 6th gate didn't even take out a Shouten Kisame clone; and Gai's strongest attack before the 8th Gate, Afternoon Tiger, didn't even kill Kisame. MP, as well, didn't do any crazy body-breaking damage when it hit its target.




Technically you don't know what happened to Kisame after that kick to the face, the panel after Gai kicked him. Morning Peacock was executed. Secondly, we don't know if Gai aimed Morning Peacock to the face, but if he did, it would certainly not look pretty. Since one 6th Gated blow is comparable to Ei's attack, which broke Sasunoo. Also, the damage done using Morning Peacock, would have been hid behind the Akatsuki cloak. So you don't have evidence to dampen the point I am making. Which is me comparing Gai's attacks to Ei breaking rib cage Sasuno for instance. On top of this, it seems Gai chose not to hit the face, as evidence of him immediately examining the body afterwards; for it to be recognizable. Which may have been planned for.

Also, no only did Gai hear from Aoba that they could capture valuable information from Kisame. But Hirudora has to pass through a Giant Shark Made out of Water. That would have VASTLY slowed down Hirudora. Which makes sense, since when Gai used it above land, it traveled much faster. Not only that, we have Gai using Hirudora against Madara, that it evidently made it so Madara could not control Mokuton anymore. So it was enough to break Madara's ability.



> He pushed Juubidara back with speed, hence Gaara's "his movements aren't human" comment. We've seen the result of his punches and kicks, including AT and MP, and they haven't shown a level of damage that would circumvent Byakugou.



That's ridiculous, how do you push back someone with speed? He was pushing him back because of his blows (you can see the impact marks twice). If Madara has Juubito level of strength, which I already told you about, by your standards, Gai would have been stopped mid-way. Yet he wasn't. Juubito's body was able to completely collapse Hashirama's temple.

Gai isn't trying to circumvent Byakugou, his circumventing Tsunade's 'body toughness'. She does NOT have Sasuno level bones, and I have compared how Gai's strikes, one in the 6th Gate, is comparable to Ei.




> I don't know how you can say "magically" when Kisame survived it without any type of regeneration whatsoever and his body wasn't broken.



I have answered this, there are two key pieces why Kisame did not die. Shark, and Aoba comment. We  also have evidence, that Hirudora was enough that Madara could not maintain Mokuton anymore. Not only that, but I have repeated now, 7th Gated Gai can bust Tsunade open like a nut.



> On the other hand, we've seen Tsunade still fight after having her spine severed and organs destroyed by Susano'o swords, and we've seen her survive and still continue to heal others after she'd been split in half. Gai's techniques don't do that kind of damage that we've seen her survive. We've also seen her survive slashes from Oro's Kusanagi and being teleported by Mabui's technique which rips a normal person apart. Tsunade also took a hit point blank from Yasaka Magatamas and was virtually unphased. She's got surprising durability coupled with resilence and hax regeneration .



Bravo, Tsunade has fought with two swords in her stomach. She has taken a hit to the stomach and regenerated. But the main conclusion, was those damages were localised near the stomach region. Gai can aim for another place you know? And it's called the head. A completely different beast, a completely different beast of organ in that. She has resiliency, and she has regeneration, she does not have 'body toughness' on the level of Sasuke's Sasuno ribcage. Not even close. While one 6th Gate punch can dent and crack Sasuke's Sasunoo rib cage (no shatter like Ei) what do you think consecutive blows to the head that have not healed in time will do? They will weaken - weaken - weaken - pop.

She is also no impervious to the amount of heat Gai has canonically shown. Espcially when he can center all that heat on ONE portion of her body.



> You're completely ignoring Katsuyu in this match-up. You haven't answered how he overcomes her regeneration when she also has Katsuyu to help shield her.



Well if Tsuande is hiding in Katsuya, Gai won't open the gates and waste them. But when she engages him, he will pop her head like a toy.



> You're also ignoring Kishi's hype and portrayal regarding Byakugou. When Madara gained Hashirama's regeneration, reported to be similar to Tsunade's, he let himself get smashed and batted around by Bijuu and he laughed it off. A technique that makes being used as a ping pong ball by Bijuu not dangerous at all is not going to be so easily overwhelmed by Gai's attacks. Unless you think 7th Gated Gai's attacks are multiple times more powerful than the Bijuu. Cause the dmage from the Bijuu didn't even come close to making Madara fear for his life.



Please, I beg you, don't use *SAGE MODE MADARA* as an example to make your point. I will just leave that there. His so vastly more superior in durability, and regeneration (due to sage chakra), it isn't fair.




> Burn her quite heavily? If you mean MP, I don't know how you can claim that. As I keep saying we've seen his attacks land. MP didn't severely burn Shouten Kisame, whose real body was just some fodder. And I don't know where you're getting that MP dishes out punches that can crack Susano'o either. If that was the case, Shouten Kisame should have had his body destroyed but, again, that's not the case.



I love how you guys keep, and keep, and keep on using a feat, what? 250+ chapters ago since 506, when he used Morning Peacock a second time. Please, use new feats.



> And Byakugou has shown to be very effective against fighting severe burns. Tsunade batted away Madara's fireballs, which should be much more powerful than the ones from MP, and Byakugou easily took care of the burns. If Madara's fireballs are batted away and barely give her pause, Gai's MP created fireballs are not going to be a huge threat.



There is a stark difference, between the level of fire technique Madara used against Tsunade; when his soul was literally being torn out of his Edo body - not the best and convenient spot to use your best ability. And when he used fire techniques that needed countless Mist Shinobi to counter, the fire that dwarfed Tsunade that Mei helped, and the one used against the Alliance that was twice the size of Juubidara. Gai's came off better then such a poorly displayed technique when compared to his [Madara] other fire moves.

*At the end of the day:* Gai pushed back Juubidara, is a beautiful feat of Gai showing off his human strength. That is enough for me to believe Gai can quite easily, slam a kick to pop her head off. Ala Lee vs. Madara in base (w/ Kyuubi cloak). And to top it off, one fore the Tsunade fan folks; Kunai to the neck/head.​


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## Source (Mar 19, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> We've seen Gated Gai kick people in the face - their heads did not explode and their necks didn't break.
> 
> We've seen MP and AT hit people and neither of them were blown or ripped apart.
> 
> Try again.



That's nice.

Now show me durability feats for Tsunade that are on par with surviving a multi kilometer shockwave.


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## Mercurial (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad, don't even waste your time, don't bother. A worn out base Gai could step in a fight between KCM Naruto and Obito and successfully fend off Obito's Kamui with just pure reflexes and taijutsu skill. A fresh, Gated Gai? When a worn out could push back Juubidara, who blitzed Minato in two panels and hit him three times before he could Hiraishin away? When casual nunchaku hits in base destroy giant boulders? Gai blitzes Tsunade and destroys her skull with a taijutsu combo. Or Asa Kujaku. Or Hiru Tora.

Gai is tiers above Tsunade, by feats and hype. Deal with it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 19, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



8th gate=more blunt force trauma.  Poor Guy throws away his life for nothing.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> 8th gate=more blunt fore trauma.  Poor Guy throws away his life for nothing.



8th Gate is not reserved for Tsunade. His got a plethora of options against her. A plethora.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 19, 2014)

Yeah yeah.  

If next chapter Guy realizes that blunt force attacks aren't working on Madara, and pulls out a kunai and embeds it into Madara's forehead, or slashes his head off at 90000kmph, I will concede that Guy beats Tsunade.  If he doesn't, and he keeps using his gated blunt force attacks until he's spent like he's been doing with the full knowledge that it's not working, then I'm going to stick with my assumption that Tsunade outlasts and defeats him.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

I always have trouble determining certain outcomes when it comes to Oro and Tsunade because of their healing/durability.

In Oro's case for example I feel like you would literally have to crush his head or actually incinerate his body. Cutting off his head probably won't work since cutting him in half was childs play for him to recover from. This is a little off topic but my point is simply that amazing feats of durability are around in the Narutoverse.

In Tsunades case I feel you have to do something similar although head removal should probably do it. 

Even without gates Gai is faster but with them he isn't so fast that Tsunade can't react at all. She certainly can't keep up in a direct fight but she can at least say….Flinch backwards a little from a kunai coming from her throat. So even if Gai connects she might still have her head part of the way connected which IMO, she could heal from with her seal.

On top of all that Gai's preferred method of fighting is blunt force, not slicing. He prefers the nunchaku to the kunai. In a bloodlusted state he is more aggressive but is he smarter? Does he think to use a kunai to slice her head off instead of his normal methods? 

And beyond all of that if she has Katsuya summoned there is even more healing available and the amount of damage she can take is even further upped. 

In any case I think Tsunade is the likely winner here. Offensively she has no chance but I think Gai is going to have to kill himself trying to do enough damage and even that may not end it.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Yeah yeah.
> 
> If next chapter Guy realizes that blunt force attacks aren't working on Madara.




Gai's 8th Gated fists smashed Madara through the 4-Jubi-bomb-tanking Onmyouton and made Jubi Jinchuriki Madara throw up blood. 

If Gai's fist connects with Tsunade's face, her head isn't going to be there anymore. She doesn't have Jubi durability protecting her.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Yeah yeah.
> 
> If next chapter Guy realizes that blunt force attacks aren't working on Madara, and pulls out a kunai and embeds it into Madara's forehead, or slashes his head off at 90000kmph, I will concede that Guy beats Tsunade.  If he doesn't, and he keeps using his gated blunt force attacks until he's spent like he's been doing with the full knowledge that it's not working, then I'm going to stick with my assumption that Tsunade outlasts and defeats him.



Sense of denial. Ignore the feat I have literally plastered infront of you. I have littered you with examples, after examples, after examples....after examples of Gai's strength feats. And still, you won't let up. Tsunade, and I repeat, has no feats, that suggest, she can survive an impact from a 7th Gated Gai's kick to the head, that she would not a) go unconscious b) have her head severed off her shoulders. This guy was literally pushing back Juubidara, whose powers is above that of Juubito, who casually breaks Sasuke's Sasunoo. 6th Gated Gai, whose strength resembles greater, then Ei's strength that broke Sasunoo. His strength that was called impressive by Obito after effortlessly smashing through a boulder that dwarfed himself, who was said to be able to destroy the target by Kisame using Morning Peacock, to have eviserated a Tsunami wave of water in one panel, to have tripped Gedomazou and uprooted rocks the size of him. Tsunade's skull, is not surviving impact, after impact, after crazy impact, that she can say "Heal" in the time it takes for her cognitive abilities, conciousness, and life, to fade away.

Yet, even when I show you a panel, of Gai, using Samehada, a weapon he is not familiar with. Use it against Kisame. Then to turn around to me, say "Jad, Gai won't use a Kunai in his back pocket because it's OOC" but rather, he will stick in a failed attempt to kill Tsunade with blunt force attacks. That you guys perceive will not work, but will do so as he is, I quote "not smart". Is the most. down right. ludicrous thing. I have read. Every ninja, when the time come, uses tools they are not familiar with. I have listed this for the 500th time.


 Tenten using Bananafan
 Tsuande using the Tanto knife
 Kakashi using Zabuza's blade
 Shikamaru using a knife edge
 Wow, Gai using Samehada....
 Probably more when they come, Darui I remember...

You know at this moment, I'm glad people are starting to pry away from Tsunade's said durability, like she is made of Diamonds. And are starting to open their eyes. I'm glad that's starting to have an affect on people.



Rocky said:


> Gai's 8th Gated fists smashed Madara through the 4-Jubi-bomb-tanking Onmyouton and made Jubi Jinchuriki Madara throw up blood.
> 
> If Gai's fist connects with Tsunade's face, her head isn't going to be there anymore. She doesn't have Jubi durability protecting her.



Not trying to be rude or anything, but it's difficult, it's an up hill battle, to ever try to convince them of this point.
​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 19, 2014)

Assuming Guy's punch goes the blow off heads route, instead of the infinitely more common send the entire person flying back 500 feet route.  A.K.A the only effect his punches and attacks have ever shown to have.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 19, 2014)

I already told you what it would take for me to change my opinion, and that criteria hasn't been met by the manga.  



> *Jado*
> that she can say "Heal" in the time it takes for her cognitive abilities, conciousness, and life, to fade away.



I don't think her consciousness will fade, or that she'll die.  Go read the part where Chiyo saves Sakura with her life force jutsu.  Sakura has fatal wounds that aren't treated, and she doesn't have enough blood to live, and the conditions to sustain life aren't met.  But having more life force revives her, and prevents her fatal wounds from killing her.  Kishi is weird about life force.  It doesn't work in Kishiverse like you think it does.  That's why I don't buy Tsunade dying even if she sustains fatal wounds.  But if you cut off her head, just like Cyphon, I think she will die eventually, because there's an ambiguous limit to how long she can keep not dying.  Though each healing might reset it.  I'm not sure, and I have a hard time explaining it, because it's weird and very much unlike our world, and Kishi doesn't ever concretely explain it, so I just go with saying I don't think that will work.  If other people don't care, fine.  I don't expect anyone to buy my views, especially if I can't articulate them.  But by the same token, I'm not going to buy anyone else's if their explanation ignores some detail I think is very important.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Assuming Guy's punch goes the blow off heads route, instead of the infinitely more common send the entire person flying back 500 feet route.  A.K.A the only effect his punches and attacks have ever shown to have.




8 Gated Gai has punched one person: Jubi Jin Madara, so let's not use the term "common."

Tsunade's durability is about 5000x worse than Jubi Jin Madara's, and Gai's punches fucked even him up. Tsunade isn't surviving them, Byakugo or not. 

Tsunade's skull (or her anything) isn't physically durable enough to withstand initial contact with Gai's fist and actually get sent flying. It would just be obliterated. That wasn't the case when 6 Gated Gai hit Kisame, or Rusty Tsunade hit Orochimaru, etc. That doesn't mean they are incapable of shattering things with their fists.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade's durability is about 5000x worse than Jubi Jin Madara's,.



And where do you get these numbers exactly?

Tsunade is Senju which means she is in the line of those with tough physicality and shit. Sure, I won't argue she is as durable as Madara but she is still of the tough blood and has one of the best healing techs in the manga.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I already told you what it would take for me to change my opinion, and that criteria hasn't been met by the manga.



Then, and I am sorry to say this, I personally feel like you've failed to understand the manga, and are severely, severely overrating Tsunade. Quite heavily as well. I feel like I have the right to say this, because this has not been my first debate when it comes to Tsunade vs. Gai.

All I was ever doing is using manga pages, comparing the impact illustrations. That's all. I honestly don't need to type all these paragraphs. They are in the images. If A  - Damage resembles B - Damage, I see no reason to say they aren't comparable. Which is what I did with 6th Gate Gai and Ei. And if you want to turn a blind eye to this. So be it. It's not fair, but so be it.

You also turn a blind away to the possibility that a *Ninja*, like Gai, would ever resort to a Kunai - a *ninja *tool. Simply because he didn't use it against an opponent. Especially when you guys give Tsunade these outrageous feats, but keep Gai, in your scenario, repeating the same mistakes.



> I don't think her consciousness will fade, or that she'll die.  Go read the part where Chiyo saves Sakura with her life force jutsu.  Sakura has fatal wounds that aren't treated, and she doesn't have enough blood to live, and the conditions to sustain life aren't met.  But having more life force revives er.  Kishi is weird about life force.  It doesn't work in Kishiverse like you think it does.



Not sure what you are referring to.


Edit: Also, it does not shock me you don't believe 8th Gate Gai can beat Tsunade with his Night Elephant. I knew you would say this. I have debated for a long time.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad said:


> but keep Gai, in your scenario, repeating the same mistakes.



Gai forgot who Kisame was multiple times IIRC. So he kind of has a history of repeating the same mistakes.

Beyond that Tsunade is smarter anyway so it stands to reason she would be given more credit for making a smarter decision.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> And where do you get these numbers exactly?
> 
> Tsunade is Senju which means she is in the line of those with tough physicality and shit. Sure, I won't argue she is as durable as Madara but she is still of the tough blood and has one of the best healing techs in the manga.




I used the large number as an exaggeration to mean "a shit ton."

Jubi Jinchuriki Madara literally walked through Gai's Hirodura like Broly did Goku's Kamehameha wave. Not a single mark on him. 

Gai then goes into the final gate, and the_ shockwaves_ his fists produce alone make Madara bleed. When he makes direct contact, he busts Madara right through his Jubidama-tanking shield and has him looking like he was hit by a train. 

I'm going to say pretty comfortably that Gai hits far harder than Tsunade, and if Tsunade punched someone with her own durability in the face....they wouldn't have a face.


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## The Undying (Mar 19, 2014)

Personally, I see Tsunade defeating Guy at Gates 1-6, and maybe even 7 as well. This is not because it's just a bad match-up but because I genuinely think people underestimate Tsunade, especially with Byakugo.

The 8th Gate is just way too much for her though in my opinion. It's on a level beyond anything a Kage could hope to achieve.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm going to say pretty comfortably that Gai hits far harder than Tsunade, and if Tsunade punched someone with her own durability in the face....they wouldn't have a face.



8 gated Gai hits harder than Tsunade sure, but a Tsunade hit wouldn't remove someones face. Even an SM Jiraiya kick only blinding a Pain body and SM Jiraiya is stronger than Tsunade IMO.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Gai forgot who Kisame was multiple times IIRC. So he kind of has a history of repeating the same mistakes.
> 
> Beyond that Tsunade is smarter anyway so it stands to reason she would be given more credit for making a smarter decision.



You know for a fact the two are different. Gai has shown he is a capable fighter, and intelligent one. I mean he even reminded Naruto, "don't use flashy moves" and resorted to his Nunchuku's for short range Taijutsu against Obito. He was smart enough to develop a method to counter Sharingan genjutsu, that Kakashi had to ask on how he did so. I feel like I could potentially pull more, like being Kakashi's team mate and long term rival, that perhaps his tactics, intelligence, has rubbed off on Gai as well. It's crazy, to have Gai in a scenario, where if his blunt force attacks aren't working, he won't opt for a Kunai. Rather die in vein of being 'stupid'....​


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad said:


> It's crazy, to have Gai in a scenario, where if his blunt force attacks aren't working, he won't opt for a Kunai. Rather die in vein of being 'stupid'....[/justify]



It isn't a matter of dying for being stupid so much as by the time he realizes that is what is necessary he won't have enough left to finish it. 

If he uses 8 gates and fails to kill her he is dead or likely exhausted (we have yet to see what his limit will extend to). 

For that matter it could be a case of Gai going 6 gates or something and hitting Tsunade. He thinks she is dead so he goes to leave, she heals and comes up on him and breaks his neck.


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## LostSelf (Mar 19, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



The man that survived Bijuu Pinball avoided direct confrontation with Evening Elephant. I have serious troubles thinking Tsunade will survive those hits. I mean, her byakugo is pretty good against blunt force attacks, surely. But it's not limitless and her durability is not that high either.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 19, 2014)

Eight Gated Gai would kill Tsunade, he is simply too fast and his strikes would likely blow her into smithereens if they made direct contact. Of course I'm still under the impression that we haven't seen the full potential of her/Hashirama/Sakura's regeneration, but I don't see it getting her through Gai's ultimate technique.

Of course, Gai is not ICly going to use eight gates against Tsunade, so in my opinion this match up hasn't changed much. Gai is going to be fighting Tsunade for fairly prolonged periods of time in both base and in lower stages of gates, I highly doubt he'll have the energy to go eight gates. Seven gates will be his limit, IMO. 

Tsunade has existing knowledge of his eight-gates technique and can survive a Hirudora with her Byakugou. It is also possible that she would use Katsuyu to block the strike too, as she did during Pein's invasion. If he tries to throw a gazillion punches at her with Morning Peacock she uses her resilience to her advantage and lands a fatal blow that kills him before he can finish landing all of his blows.

Then there's the possibility of a massive Katsuyu's Daibunretsu and Zesshi Nensan to factor in too. 

Tsunade wins, but if Gai activated all eight gates she would die. He is above the Kage-level in this form, that has been confirmed multiple times now.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Yeah yeah.
> 
> If next chapter Guy realizes that blunt force attacks aren't working on Madara, and pulls out a kunai and embeds it into Madara's forehead, or slashes his head off at 90000kmph, I will concede that Guy beats Tsunade.  If he doesn't, and he keeps using his gated blunt force attacks until he's spent like he's been doing with the full knowledge that it's not working, then I'm going to stick with my assumption that Tsunade outlasts and defeats him.



I agree with this also.​​


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> It isn't a matter of dying for being stupid so much as by the time he realizes that is what is necessary he won't have enough left to finish it.
> 
> If he uses 8 gates and fails to kill her he is dead or likely exhausted (we have yet to see what his limit will extend to).
> 
> For that matter it could be a case of Gai going 6 gates or something and hitting Tsunade. He thinks she is dead so he goes to leave, she heals and comes up on him and breaks his neck.



Twice. Twice. Gai has never left his opponent un-examined. He did so against the Shouten, he did so when he hovered over Kisame (so much that when he twitched he knocked him out).

Also, why...why would Gai resort to 8th Gate, then use a Kunai? You know what the classic thing is all about this. I don't even believe Gai needs a Kunai to beat Tsunade. I certainly believe he can pull this off in lower gates. His overall triumph in ability is above the use of a Kunai, he will deal more damage then a Kunai could. But in a world, where Tsunade's body can make blunt force attacks not happen, and he sees her healing, Kunai is the way to go. Hover - slap a Kunai - cut her head - lay it inbetween her forehead whatever.

Again, the classic thing, Gai has FEATS of having strength comparable enough to breaking Sasuno Rib Cage (Sasuke ver.) Come on, Tsunade's bones are above Sasuno? This is comparable to ONE 6th Gate punch. Imagine consecutive punches that weaken the point of impact, after every hit, before her healing catches up. No way man. Has Tsunade even been able to have her seal regenerating technique work when her brain is damaged? When she is unconscious from the _blows to the head - one of the most vital organs_. Nah, don't think so.

You see how in each post, I don't stop, I throw evidence for every post, all I get is "Gai won't use a Kunai". "Gai can't do that". It's easy to say that, it's better to prove it, like I am, throwing examples of things that happened in the manga!​


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> 8 gated Gai hits harder than Tsunade sure, but a Tsunade hit wouldn't remove someones face. Even an SM Jiraiya kick only blinding a Pain body and SM Jiraiya is stronger than Tsunade IMO.




She removed Madara's entire torso.

Btw, Sage Jiraiya isn't even on the same strength tier as Tsunade. She nearly busted Susano'o (cracked it badly). Jiraiya, as you said, couldn't even crack a Pain body's skull.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad, I was all set for 8th gate beating Tsunade.  Just like I was all set for EMS Sasuke to be infinitely better than Itachi, or for Izanami to shoot Itachi into another tier.  It just didn't work out like that when I saw the jutsu.


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## Jagger (Mar 19, 2014)

Actually, it would be a draw if Gai indeed forces himself in order to use the last Gate.

Sure, he can definitely make Tsunade look like shit, but he will eventually die so there's no point of the technique (kind of similar to Hiruzen's Shiki Fujin or Deidara's C0) as it wouldn't matter since they both die.

However, as Gondaime Tsunade said above me, Gai wouldn't use the last gate for a fight like this. The only reason he unlocked them is because he's fighting the Juubi's Jinchuuriki that just fodderized his eternal rival, Minato, Tobirama, Sasuke, Naruto and others like nothing. Unless Gai is bloodlusted and has a good reason to kill her, he wouldn't do it.

To survive? Does it really matter when you're going to die anyway?


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

PoW, it's time to move on. 

Gai > 5 Kage, as Kakashi graciously confirmed for us this chapter. Gai's beating up Jubi Jin Madara. Tsunade doesn't even stand a chance.

Gondaime Tsunade's assessment is one of the fairest imo, except I believe Gai will activate the final Gate before Tsunade outright kills him. The match is a draw.


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## Jagger (Mar 19, 2014)

Oh people, really? 8th Gates Gai murders Tsunade in the worst way possible.


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## LostSelf (Mar 19, 2014)

For me, a draw is if both collapse thanks to their enemy's attacks, or die at the same time, y'know. I just don't see it like a draw if one is being kicked aside all the match like a ragdoll and both die.

Gai might be dying, but not because any of Tsunade's attacks. At best, Gai is killing himself. Yeah, bot die, but i don't feel like it's a legitimate draw.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

Can I ask you Rocky, why do you not believe Gai can't beat her below the 8th Gate. Can we have a discussion. What feat is it that makes you believe this, and why don't you believe Gai is strong enough?


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> She removed Madara's entire torso.



That was Edo Madara right? Edo's seem to break more easily than normal people. 



> Btw, Sage Jiraiya isn't even on the same strength tier as Tsunade. She nearly busted Susano'o (cracked it badly). Jiraiya, as you said, couldn't even crack a Pain body's skull.



I think SM Jiraiya is above Tsunade in regards to strength.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad said:


> Can I ask you Rocky, why do you not believe Gai can beat her bleow the 8th Gate. Can we have a discussion.




I put a lot of faith into her Byakugo being able to survive Gai's assaults in the 7th Gate. Does it have The feats? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm just buying a it into it's hype. She claims to be "unkillable," so I think she could survive the peak of 7th Gate Gai's power; Hirodura.

Now, if Gai can outright spam AT like is currently is with EE, that would change things a bit. Each Hirodura should do about as much damage to her as it did to Kisame. If she swallows multiple successively, she would be reduced to almost nothing, sort of like:



The fight would then depend on if her Byakugo's regen was quick enough to save her from that.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I put a lot of faith into her Byakugo being able to survive Gai's assaults in the 7th Gate. Does it have The feats? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm just buying a it into it's hype. She claims to be "unkillable," so I think she could survive the peak of 7th Gate Gai's power; Hirodura.
> 
> Now, if Gai can outright spam AT like is currently is with EE, that would change things a bit. Each Hirodura should do about as much damage to her as it did to Kisame. If she swallows multiple successively, she would be reduced to almost nothing, sort of like:
> 
> ...



Well hang on here Rocky. You do not buy into the fact Gai can spam Hirudora? The guy in a beaten, exhausted and outright bloodied state threw one at Madara and did not go unconscious. The guy is literally, for 2 consecutive chapters, had the 7th and 8th Gate's open and battle ready. Throwing one Hirudora, after a combo, then into 8th with Evening Elephants. Even though before, he had to have Lee carry him. You don't believe Gai can spam Hirudora just like you described?

Also, secondly, you don't buy into Byakugan first, you have to buy into Tsunade's _body toughness_.


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## Bringer (Mar 19, 2014)

Just my two cents.

A lot of people are saying Madara becoming the Juubi Jin makes him that much more durable, but aren't we forgetting the whole bijuu pinball thing? Madara either regenerated from the damage he received from the bijuu or tanked it with pure durability. We have no reason to believe why Madara would be durable at that point in the manga. 

What I'm saying is I'm pretty sure pre Juubi Jin Madara could tank the 8th gate onslaught, and we have no reason to believe that pre Juubi Jin Madara is that much more durable than Tsunade.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2014)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Just my two cents.
> 
> A lot of people are saying Madara becoming the Juubi Jin makes him that much more durable, but aren't we forgetting the whole bijuu pinball thing? Madara either regenerated from the damage he received from the bijuu or tanked it with pure durability. We have no reason to believe why Madara would be durable at that point in the manga.
> 
> What I'm saying is I'm pretty sure pre Juubi Jin Madara could tank the 8th gate onslaught, and we have no reason to believe that pre Juubi Jin Madara is that much more durable than Tsunade.



Are you suggesting Tsunade has Madara's Sage Mode durability? Or something?


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad said:


> Twice. Twice. Gai has never left his opponent un-examined. He did so against the Shouten, he did so when he hovered over Kisame (so much that when he twitched he knocked him out).



Fair enough. Although with Kisame (the 2nd time) he knew he wasn't dead. The point was to capture him and interrogate him. The other time seemed plot related as well but I don't fully remember all of it. 



> His overall triumph in ability is above the use of a Kunai, he will deal more damage then a Kunai could.



It is true his gated damage is greater than what a kunai causes. The difference is that it is a type of damage that is ineffective vs Tsunades healing. So kunai is the way to go. 



> Tsunade's bones are above Sasuno?



Depends on how you compare Susanoo to the 3rd Raikage as far as durability goes. 

You can see here they say the third had flesh like steel and blood like iron. We also know of his other durability feats of course. And here we see that Tsunade easily survived a technique that would "rip her to shreds" and healed it as easily using the seal. 



> Has Tsunade even been able to have her seal regenerating technique work when her brain is damaged? When she is unconscious from the _blows to the head - one of the most vital organs_. Nah, don't think so.



We have never seen her try but once her seal is active it essentially works on its own so unconscious or not it stands to reason that it would heal her until the chakra runs out. 



> You see how in each post, I don't stop, I throw evidence for every post, all I get is "Gai won't use a Kunai". "Gai can't do that". It's easy to say that, it's better to prove it, like I am, throwing examples of things that happened in the manga![/justify]



Anyone can toss out random evidence. It then becomes a question of how relevant the evidence is. Truthfully you are going to need to do better.


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## LostSelf (Mar 19, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Quoting myself because no one saw the edit and because I wanted to bring this point up to Lost Self because he asks me about this stuff *and I like him*.



pek


*Spoiler*: __ 



I was aware of that because i always thought she handled a worse situation than Sakura when Oro stabbed her (But i admit i don't remember much of Sakura vs Sasori).

The reason i disagree is the same speed. One blow was enough to make Madara want to avoid it at all cost, even turtling inside his shield for his safety. Why speed? Because Gai was able to attack  from different angles before the same strike finished it's trayectory, in other words, Madara was hit by one, then before that attack finished hitting him he was hit by another, and by another, etc.

If we count that one of those is deadlier than Hirudora, and that Gai's strikes are faster than Byakugo's healing speed, i see Evening Elephant reaching the point where Byakugo won't finish healing before being hit by another and another, accumulating damage and ending with Tsunade's life basically with no healing.

Just in case i explained myself wrong (I do sometimes). Let's put it numbers.

Tsunade has 100hp and one Evening Elephant causes 40 of her damage. Byakugo begins to heal 5hp per second, but before Byakugo begins to heal, or heals the first, another blast of 40 damage will come, and then another, and another, before Byakugo finishes healing the damage and Tsunade gets to 0 and dies.

I was uncertain of this kind of logic with 7th gates. I found it plausible due to Gai's striking speed compared to Byakugo's regeneration speed, but not enough to assume it 100% and to find plausible when somebody said Tsunade outlasts him.

But following _EE_'s damage, speed, feats and hype, i am more convinced, though.


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## Bringer (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad said:


> Are you suggesting Tsunade has Madara's Sage Mode durability? Or something?



No, but I think she could have something quite close to it. We're not sure to what extent Hashirama's sage mode enhances durability but Tsunade does have her own impressive durability feats. 

>She took multiple slashes from a sword that could harm Enma in his admantium form. The sword only bypassed her flesh, but couldn't cut through her bone.
>She tanked Pain's CST without the aid of Katsuyu
>She tanked Madara's miniature Yasaka Magatama unscathed. I personally believe that the wound that was regenerating after she crashed into the boulder was the wound from the susanoo stab.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 19, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> pek
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah, I get that.

To put my view into numbers, I think that even if Tsunade's HP reaches 0, she'll not die somehow, and her body will keep healing back damage.  Though she will die eventually if she's not healing, just like how she would have eventually died from being bisected and being left there.  So the question for me has always been whether or not someone can keep her dead long enough for her to stay that way, and I don't think so.  Which is why my view on what she out lasts is so out there compared to a lot of other people.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Jad said:


> Well hang on here Rocky. You do not buy into the fact Gai can spam Hirudora? The guy in a beaten, exhausted and outright bloodied state threw one at Madara and did not go unconscious. The guy is literally, for 2 consecutive chapters, had the 7th and 8th Gate's open and battle ready. Throwing one Hirudora, after a combo, then into 8th with Evening Elephants. Even though before, he had to have Lee carry him. You don't believe Gai can spam Hirudora just like you described?
> 
> Also, secondly, you don't buy into Byakugan first, you have to buy into Tsunade's _body toughness_.




Her "toughness" is on par with Kisame, imo. Durable, but not "my lighting sword bounces off your pec" tough. One Hirodura is going to leave her in a state comparable to that of Kisame after taking the technique to the teeth...but her Byakugo will begin to heal off that damage immediately. If Gai's Hirodura spam can blow her up faster than the pace her healing operates at, then he wins by just blowing her to bits. 

I don't know how likely that scenario is. I mean, if Tsunade was a villain that Gai had to defeat, do I see Kishimoto writing something like that? You bet I do. On the other hand though, if Gai was a villain Tsunade had to defeat, I see her tanking everything with Byakugo...so basically portrayal has me torn. Since Gai lacked the feats of multi-Hirodura, I sided with Tsunade, but I suppose he has displayed sufficient stamina for us to make the assumption that he could spam if necessary.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

Are people seriously here claiming Tsunade could do anything but get murdered by Gai?

Tsunade would get pregnant upon seeing Gai entering the 8th Gate.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Are people seriously here claiming Tsunade could do anything but get murdered by Gai?



I don't think anyone is claiming she could touch him but there is a very high probability that she can survive anything he can dish out.


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## Louis-954 (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I don't think anyone is claiming she could touch him but there is a very high probability that she can survive anything he can dish out.


Tsunade can't regenerate from pancake batter.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I don't think anyone is claiming she could touch him but there is a very high probability that she can survive anything he can dish out.



Gai's punches would turn Tsunade's head into Picadillo, no she wouldn't survive that.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> Tsunade can't regenerate from pancake batter.





Orochibuto said:


> Gai's punches would turn Tsunade's head into Picadillo, no she wouldn't survive that.



Proof either of things are possible. The best he got from Madara was a little blood.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Final Gated Gai can juggle Tsunade, just like Lee did against Gaara in the Chunin exams. The difference is that Gai's elephant punches damage Jubidara. She'll be in pieces after taking five.



Cyphon said:


> Proof either of things are possible. The best he got from Madara was a little blood.




I want you to understand that JJ Madara – who receives no injuries (at all) from a Hirodura exploding an inch away – is not Tsunade.


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## Louis-954 (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Proof either of things are possible. The best he got from Madara was a little blood.


You seem to be under the false impression that Tsunade is even half as durable as Juubi Jin Madara.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I want you to understand that JJ Madara ? who receives no injuries (at all) from a Hirodura exploding an inch away ? is not Tsunade.



True. But she can survive a technique that should have ripped her body to shreds and has enough durability to survive being split in half and still summon a boss to heal her and everyone else completely. 



Louis-954 said:


> You seem to be under the false impression that Tsunade is even half as durable as Juubi Jin Madara.



And you have proof she isn't?

Do we have some basis for comparison given what she has survived compared to him?


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## Louis-954 (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> True. But she can survive a technique that should have ripped her body to shreds and *has enough durability to survive being split in half* and still summon a boss to heal her and everyone else completely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. That isn't durability. It's endurance. -_-

2. It isn't up to me to prove that she isn't. You're the one making the claim that she can survive Night Elephant and even counterattack when the assault is over.  It's your duty as the claimant to back that up with evidence, not mine.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> 1. That isn't durability. It's endurance. -_-



It is both, more or less. Most people would be dead immediately after being split in half. 



> 2. It isn't up to me to prove that she isn't. You're the one making the claim that she can survive Night Elephant and even counterattack when the assault is over.



Doesn't work that way. We already know Tsunade can survive nearly anything per feats, DB and statements. You are claiming Gai can turn her to mush or knock her head off when we have no set precedent for something like that in the manga. No claim from Gai or other characters that it can happen, no character of similar strength or abilities accomplishing it and the one person he has attacked barely seems injured.

So it is all on you. I am open to change if you can provide any sort of evidence I may have forgotten though.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> True. But she can survive a technique that should have ripped her body to shreds and has enough durability to survive being split in half and still summon a boss to heal her and everyone else completely.




Base Raikage survived the transportation technique with a few scratches (Tsunade needed life-shortening medical Ninjutsu to live), and being ripped in half is a bad example to bring up if you're arguing durability.

JJ Madara is basically Tsunade (because he has Hashirama's cells & his regeneration)...except he also has the Ten Tails. That means he, in addition to his own abilities, has the massive durability boost and Jubi-regen. Yet, Gai is _still_ damaging him.

Madara took absolutely no damage from a direct Hirodura, which wouldn't be the case for Tsunade. There are tiers between them in durability. Tsunade may be sturdy, but Gai can punch her to paste. How do you think Edo Madara split her in half to begin with?


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Base Raikage survived the transportation technique with a few scratches (Tsunade needed life-shortening medical Ninjutsu to live), and being ripped in half is a bad example to bring up if you're arguing durability.



Raikage is also the song of the guy who survived it so it made sense for him to have similar traits. And Tsunade didn't need the healing to survive per se. She survived it before she started the healing. It seems to me she healed so that she was 100% for the coming fight. Although I admit there is no direct proof I am right. 

And how is it a bad example exactly?



> Yet, Gai is _still_ damaging him.



Gai is barely damaging him from the looks of it so even if we multiply that it means potentially life threatening injuries for Tsunade which she can heal via seal or Katsuya. 



> Madara took absolutely no damage from a direct Hirodura, which wouldn't be the case for Tsunade. There are tiers between them in durability. Tsunade may be sturdy, but Gai can punch her to paste.



Can you prove any of this or even show something similar? Show me someone being punched to paste. Show me someone having their head knocked all of the way off. I will give you one thing that Tsunade would takes some damage from Hirodura but she would easily heal from it as well. 



> How do you think Edo Madara split her in half to begin with?



Hard to say. Susanoo most likely since he had pierced her with it multiple times already. I hope you aren't implying he split her in half with a punch


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## Louis-954 (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> *It is both*, more or less. Most people would be dead immediately after being split in half.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. No, it's not. Look up the definition of durability.

2. No limits fallacy. 

3. Juubibara is *leaps and bounds* above Tsunade in every physical stat imaginable. Do you not have any sense of powerscaling? We're not talking about two people on the same level, or even remotely close. We're talking about different dimensions. 

Tailed Beast Taijutsu attacks that are much weaker than the Night Elephant combo managed to sever Madara's arm even with Sage Mode (enhanced durability) active. How is Tsunade supposed to withstand a far more lethal onslaught of attacks? Tsunade is not sturdier than any incarnation of Madara.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

Dude seriously look at the hole Gai PUNCHED. I mean seriously, do you know the strenght needed to open a hole like that, with professional equipment?

Without a doubt is the strenght that certaintly can turn people into paste, unless you are saying Tsunade is more durable than KILOMETERS of earth.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Raikage is also the song of the guy who survived it so it made sense for him to have similar traits. And Tsunade didn't need the healing to survive per se. She survived it before she started the healing. It seems to me she healed so that she was 100% for the coming fight. Although I admit there is no direct proof I am right.
> 
> And how is it a bad example exactly?




Tsunade survived the technique all cut up. My opinion is that she would have died without Genesis Rebirth, as she would've used normal medical Ninjutsu to heal if her injuries weren't fatal.




> Gai is barely damaging him from the looks of it so even if we multiply that it means potentially life threatening injuries for Tsunade which she can heal via seal or Katsuya.


 

What are you talking about? Madara's getting fucked up pretty badly right now. Gai isn't rippinf him to pieces, but "barley damaging" is what Maubi's technique, or Sasuke's Chidori, did to Raikage.



> Can you prove any of this or even show something similar? Show me someone being punched to paste. Show me someone having their head knocked all of the way off. I will give you one thing that Tsunade would takes some damage from Hirodura but she would easily heal from it as well.




Tsunade punched Edo Madara's torso to paste. Raikage & Tsunade teamed up and punched Susano'o (which is far more durable than most people) to paste. The Shin susenju punched Perfect Susano'o to pieces. Sasuke's Susano'o punched Danzo to paste (using the ground). It happens.



> Hard to say. Susanoo most likely since he had pierced her with it multiple times already. I hope you aren't implying he split her in half with a punch




It was a rhetorical question. He dropped a tree on her splitting her with blunt force damage.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

You forgot to mention Gai's punch turned kilometers of hard solid rock to paste.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> 1. No, it's not. Look up the definition of durability.



For arguments sake we will change the word to survivability but the distinction is pointless. You are running out of arguments so you choose to nitpick, fine. She has amazing survivability, not durability?...



> 2. No limits fallacy.



Call it what you will. The truth is the truth. The statements have been pretty thoroughly tested and she has passed them all. She has been pierced, beaten, ripped apart (kind of) and split and half and has survived it all. 



> Juubibara is *leaps and bounds* above Tsunade in every physical stat imaginable.



Again, where is your proof that he is that much more durable than her? I will give you that he is more durable. But we can't gauge by how much. There are no statements or middle ground ways to judge. Who is to say the majority of his durability isn't coming from the Hashirama DNA? If that is the case Tsunade has that same DNA. 

All I am asking for is a reasonable explanation from you. 



> Tailed Beast Taijutsu attacks that are much weaker than the Night Elephant combo managed to sever Madara's arm even with Sage Mode (enhanced durability) active. How is Tsunade supposed to withstand a far more lethal onslaught of attacks? Tsunade is not sturdier than any incarnation of Madara.



You are comparing chakra to physical attacks. Doesn't work that way. 



Orochibuto said:


> Dude seriously look at the hole Gai PUNCHED. I mean seriously, do you know the strenght needed to open a hole like that, with professional equipment?
> 
> Without a doubt is the strenght that certaintly can turn people into paste, unless you are saying Tsunade is more durable than KILOMETERS of earth.



This is the world of Naruto and you are trying to compare it to real life digging equipment? 

We have seen people smashed through concrete and shit and maybe end up with a broken rib but can still fight. Hell, we actually saw Tsunade split in half and still summon a boss summon.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade survived the technique all cut up. My opinion is that she would have died without Genesis Rebirth, as she would've used normal medical Ninjutsu to heal if her injuries weren't fatal.



It is possible but I doubt it. Her injuries didn't look serious at all. No way to truly tell though. 



> What are you talking about? Madara's getting fucked up pretty badly right now.



We will truly know next chapter but after taking Gais entire onslaught he stood right up and was excited about fighting. I doubt the injuries are that severe. Again though, next chapter should tell us more. 



> Tsunade punched Edo Madara's torso to paste. Raikage & Tsunade teamed up and punched Susano'o (which is far more durable than most people) to paste. The Shin susenju punched Perfect Susano'o to pieces. Sasuke's Susano'o punched Danzo to paste (using the ground). It happens.



None of those things are real people though. Madara was an Edo made of dirt and shit, Susanoo is Susanoo and what Sasuke did was genjutsu IIRC. 

We have never seen an actual real bodied ninja take damage on the level you are claiming. The worst was probably Pain getting blinded by Jiraiya's kick. 



> It was a rhetorical question. He dropped a tree on her splitting her with blunt force damage.



No proof of that IIRC. She ended up under a tree but it is more likely she was split in half by Susanoo.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

One thing is being punched through a rock and another entirely what Gai did. Unless you think Tsunade's body is more durable than KILOMETERS of hard solid EARTH (not just rock).


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## iJutsu (Mar 19, 2014)

Tsunade could only survive being split in two because Madara didn't finish her off. You can't pretend that Madara thought she was dead, he knew she had Hashi level healing. Regenerating from that takes time, time she doesn't have with Gai's speed.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> One thing is being punched through a rock and another entirely what Gai did. Unless you think Tsunade's body is more durable than KILOMETERS of hard solid EARTH (not just rock).



Hard to say. Madara didn't seem that damaged going through all of that earth. Tsunade might take a bit more damage but again, super healing takes care of that.


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## Shodai (Mar 19, 2014)

Gai moves at 300km/h and punches with the force of a 1000 ton gorilla, Tsunade don't

It's ogre, Gai already won


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## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Hard to say. Madara didn't seem that damaged going through all of that earth. Tsunade might take a bit more damage but again, super healing takes care of that.



Madara is the Juubi Jinchuuriki, how you can compare him to Tsunade?

Also Madara was not punched through the rock, he was punched along the rock, the punches were opening the rock while Madara travelled.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 19, 2014)

Gai now stomps this. He was already above her with 7 gates but merely lacked a way to kill her. With evening elephant he literally stomps, even though he has to die to do it.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Madara is the Juubi Jinchuuriki, how you can compare him to Tsunade?



Because they are both have Senju DNA which is IIRC, specifically more durable and such. 



> Also Madara was not punched through the rock, he was punched along the rock, the punches were opening the rock while Madara travelled.



I am not sure that makes sense. Are you saying the punch went all the way through his body? His body would have shielded the earth from that much of the punch at least unless the force of it went all the way through him.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> It is possible but I doubt it. Her injuries didn't look serious at all. No way to truly tell though.




It's a matter of common sense. If her injuries weren't fatal, then normal medical Ninjutsu would suffice in fixing them. However, she used regeneration, which can deal with fatal wounds. Tsunade doesn't just use Genesis Rebirth for fun. _It shortens her life. _



> We will truly know next chapter but after taking Gais entire onslaught he stood right up and was excited about fighting. I doubt the injuries are that severe. Again though, next chapter should tell us more.




Madara's excitement doesn't mean anything. At the end of the day, he's all bruised and bloodied, despite the Jubi healing & his own healing from Hashirama. 



> None of those things are real people though. Madara was an Edo made of dirt and shit, Susanoo is Susanoo and what Sasuke did was genjutsu IIRC.
> 
> We have never seen an actual real bodied ninja take damage on the level you are claiming. The worst was probably Pain getting blinded by Jiraiya's kick.




Edo keep their durability. When they are struck some extra dirt may fly up and shit, but thier actual Edo bodies are just as durable as thier human bodies (3rd Raikage fight says hello).

The durability of Susano'o is superior to that of a person, so I don't know what you're point is by saying "Susano'o is Susano'o". If Tsunade can shatter Susano'o, she can shatter a person's skull. That's common sense.

What Sasuke did was real, but Izanagi negated it. Izanagi doesn't affect Danzo's durability or Susano'o's strength, though. 

........I don't know why it matters that we've never seen a living ninja suffer that kind of damage. We've seen things much more durable than a living ninja get shattered by punches and kicks. That would indicate that the living ninja would suffer the same fate (or worse).



> No proof of that IIRC. She ended up under a tree but it is more likely she was split in half by Susanoo.






So what you're saying is, Madara cut her in half with Susano'o, grew a tree, and placed her separated body parts in a way that makes it appear exactly as if the tree was the cause of the bisection.

Ok bro.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon, you really aren't serious? I mean, as an original BD member, I'd expect more from you.


----------



## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Because they are both have Senju DNA which is IIRC, specifically more durable and such.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure that makes sense. Are you saying the punch went all the way through his body? His body would have shielded the earth from that much of the punch at least unless the force of it went all the way through him.



The punch work like air bullets, the air destroyed the ground until the bottom, Madara travelling along with the air punches.

Madara sure took some of the Earth, but it was not his body that rammed through and destroyed the earth (as you can see by the size of the hole), it was Gai punches.

Even if Madara could tank that, he is to Tsunade what Juubito is to Konohamaru.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It's a matter of common sense. If her injuries weren't fatal, then normal medical Ninjutsu would suffice in fixing them. However, she used regeneration, which can deal with fatal wounds. Tsunade doesn't just use Genesis Rebirth for fun. _It shortens her life. _



I disagree. Well actually, maybe I don't. I think it is more the fact that I think Kishi messed up. He hyped the jutsu as something that would shred anyone without exceptionally tough skin. Tsunade said she would use her seal. She went through the teleportation without using her seal and seemed to have fairly minor cuts. I think you will agree she didn't look significantly damaged. 

So either he overhyped the damage the jutsu would cause or didn't show enough damage on her body. Because based on appearance she would have been fine healing herself the normal way.



> Madara's excitement doesn't mean anything. At the end of the day, he's all bruised and bloodied, despite the Jubi healing & his own healing from Hashirama.



Um?.All we see was a little blood around his mouth. 



> Edo keep their durability. When they are struck some extra dirt may fly up and shit, but thier actual Edo bodies are just as durable as thier human bodies (3rd Raikage fight says hello).



Yes, but normal people also don't break into dirt pieces or whatever. So there is some difference. Mostly in consistency from Kishi I think. 



> The durability of Susano'o is superior to that of a person, so I don't know what you're point is by saying "Susano'o is Susano'o". If Tsunade can shatter Susano'o, she can shatter a person's skull. That's common sense.



It doesn't always work like that. Susanoo is more durable than Itachi and Sasuke body who are small and frail people. But I don't think the damage resistance would change much from say?Susanoo to the 4th or Bee or someone. 

Well, not sure if I am explaining right. The point is, Kishi kind of changes as is needed. In any case we have never seen someone turned to mush who was "normal". 



> What Sasuke did was real, but Izanagi negated it. Izanagi doesn't affect Danzo's durability or Susano'o's strength, though.



Again, my point is that the result wasn't real. Kishi has never had a character turned to much or had their head knocked off. We have seen limbs blown off or sliced off but no physical impact has done that much damage. 



> That would indicate that the living ninja would suffer the same fate (or worse).



Not in Kishi's world. 



> So what you're saying is, Madara cut her in half with Susano'o, grew a tree, and placed her separated body parts in a way that makes it appear exactly as if the tree was the cause of the bisection..



That would be stupid. I am saying it is likely he killed her first (since that was his stated goal) and fought the others and took them out using Mokotun and what have you and that is how the fight ended up. 

Although with Kishi who can say for sure? 



Luftwaffles said:


> Cyphon, you really aren't serious? I mean, as an original BD member, I'd expect more from you.



I will give more effort when it is necessary. Right now the arguments aren't good enough to provoke my best. I apologize for it in any case but that isn't really my fault now is it? 



Orochibuto said:


> The punch work like air bullets, the air destroyed the ground until the bottom, Madara travelling along with the air punches.
> 
> Madara sure took some of the Earth, but it was not his body that rammed through and destroyed the earth (as you can see by the size of the hole), it was Gai punches.



Was it explained that way? It is my impression that his body destroyed the part of the ground it went through and the parts around him were destroyed by the parts of Gais punch he wasn't hit with. 



> Even if Madara could tank that, he is to Tsunade what Juubito is to Konohamaru.



Proof please.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I disagree. Well actually, maybe I don't. I think it is more the fact that I think Kishi messed up. He hyped the jutsu as something that would shred anyone without exceptionally tough skin. Tsunade said she would use her seal. She went through the teleportation without using her seal and seemed to have fairly minor cuts. I think you will agree she didn't look significantly damaged.
> 
> So either he overhyped the damage the jutsu would cause or didn't show enough damage on her body. Because based on appearance she would have been fine healing herself the normal way.




"Kishi fucked up."

I don't care how she "appeared." The indication is that her injuries were beyond the capacity of standard healing (ie. fatal) the minute she pulled out Creation Rebirth. A subjective interpretation on an image doesn't take precedence over that. 



> Um….All we see was a little blood around his mouth.




There's blood that was spit out from being punched in areas other than the mouth, meaning it isn't the result of a minor cut inside the mouth or something. Madara also has bruises everywhere and is hunched over in a position that usually indicates injury. 




> Yes, but normal people also don't break into dirt pieces or whatever. So there is some difference. Mostly in consistency from Kishi I think.




"Kishi fucked up" #2.



> It doesn't always work like that. Susanoo is more durable than Itachi and Sasuke body who are small and frail people. But I don't think the damage resistance would change much from say…Susanoo to the 4th or Bee or someone.




You're right, it wouldn't. If Tsunade punched Ei or Bee, she would shatter them as well though, so what's your point.



> Well, not sure if I am explaining right. The point is, Kishi kind of changes as is needed. In any case we have never seen someone turned to mush who was "normal".




"Kishi fucked up" #3.

Also the absence of evidence = evidence of absence fallacy. 



> Again, my point is that the result wasn't real. Kishi has never had a character turned to much or had their head knocked off. We have seen limbs blown off or sliced off but no physical impact has done that much damage.




Garra's sand burial pasted somebody, and that is a physical attack, not a blade. 

Regardless, what actually is your damn point? War Tsunade hasn't punched a human body, Shinsuusenju hasn't punched a human body, and Susano'o has but you're hiding behind Izanagi despite how irrelevant that is to the actual point. Where exactly is the basis of any of your comparisons? 



> Not in Kishi's world.




Is this "Kishi fucked up #4," or "absence of evidence = evidence of absence #2?"



> That would be stupid. I am saying it is likely he killed her first (since that was his stated goal) and fought the others and took them out using Mokotun and what have you and that is how the fight ended up.




So Tsunade is laying on tree, with another tree right in the gap of her torso & lower body, but nah nah, she was killed by Susano'o, not Mokuton. The other 4 Kage, who are laying on rocks with blood all over said rocks, were actually the ones killed by Mokuton.

:giofuckinggio


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon, your entire argument hinges on "oh we haven't seen this happen yet, so it must be impossible." That's a blatant logical fallacy and is plain wrong.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 19, 2014)

Gai crushers her skull. 

End of discussion.


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## Orochibuto (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Proof please.



WHAT?! What?! Are you seriously doubting the fact that Madara the JUUBI JINCHUURIKI who is the closest thing to RS, can destroy Tsunade with zero effort?!


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> WHAT?! What?! Are you seriously doubting the fact that Madara the JUUBI JINCHUURIKI who is the closest thing to RS, can destroy Tsunade with zero effort?!



I was speaking only from a durability standpoint.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It's a matter of common sense. If her injuries weren't fatal, then normal medical Ninjutsu would suffice in fixing them. However, she used regeneration, which can deal with fatal wounds. Tsunade doesn't just use Genesis Rebirth for fun. _It shortens her life. _



I'm nit-picking but, this isn't strictly true. Tsunade could have theoretically used regular medical ninjutsu to recover from her wounds because they were just deep cuts and scratches, which she can heal very quickly [1] [2] However she had wounds in many different places at once and it would have been troublesome for her to waste much-needed chakra and time whenever she could recover through a far more efficient method.  

It's true that her regeneration shortens her life, but Byakugou is by it's very nature quite a reckless technique. It automatically begins shortening one's life the minute they sustain injury - unlike Creation Rebirth the user cannot control the chakra they release for regeneration. In addition, Tsunade is part Uzumaki and thus her life span is longer, so she can afford to abuse cell division. Tsunade isn't afraid of dying either, so she tends to be quite impulsive when it comes to using her regeneration.​​


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm nit-picking but, this isn't strictly true. Tsunade could have theoretically used regular medical ninjutsu to recover from her wounds because they were just deep cuts and scratches, which she can heal very quickly [1] [2] However she had wounds in many different places at once and it would have been troublesome for her to waste much-needed chakra and time whenever she could recover through a far more efficient method.
> 
> It's true that her regeneration shortens her life, but Byakugou is by it's very nature quite a reckless technique. It automatically begins shortening one's life the minute they sustain injury - unlike Creation Rebirth the user cannot control the chakra they release for regeneration. In addition, Tsunade is part Uzumaki and thus her life span is longer, so she can afford to abuse cell division. Tsunade isn't afraid of dying either, so she tends to be quite impulsive when it comes to using her regeneration.​​




You see, I just don't buy into "it was for efficiency & convince."  If they were just minor cuts, she would have either ignored them or ran her hand quickly over her body, patching them up, imo. I think she keeps CR in store for more problematic injuries. 

We may just have to disagree on the point, because we're arguing Tsunade's character really.


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## LostSelf (Mar 19, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, if she dies and her soul leaves her body, i don't see her coming back, though. With Byakugo she never healed while unconscious. Even though i do agree that as long she is alive, Byakugo will keep functioning, why i tried to say is that the speed of Gai's attacks will outspeed Byakugo and she won't be like healing anymore and won't be able to avoid death.

In the HP example, if Tsunade reached 0 was because the damage already killed her, not only defeated Byakugo's regeneration. But i counted that even with 0, the jutsu will begin to heal as a last effort, but another hit of EE would destroy all that.

But that's just me, though.


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 19, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Hard to say. Madara didn't seem that damaged going through all of that earth. Tsunade might take a bit more damage but again, super healing takes care of that.



The Juubi is actually able to regenerate it's host. We saw Obito do it after he was hit with a sage mode rasengan by Naruto.


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## Cyphon (Mar 19, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> The Juubi is actually able to regenerate it's host. We saw Obito do it after he was hit with a sage mode rasengan by Naruto.



Okay. That really doesn't change what Tsunade is capable of.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 19, 2014)

Obito already regenerated the damage another Rasengan did to his shoulder before the Ten Tails was even revived iirc.



Rocky said:


> It's a matter of common sense. If her injuries weren't fatal, then normal medical Ninjutsu would suffice in fixing them. However, she used regeneration, which can deal with fatal wounds. Tsunade doesn't just use Genesis Rebirth for fun. _It shortens her life. _



There are a multitude of issues with this statement.

For starters, all injurious experiences will shorten a person's lifespan because they all necessitate that cells undergo additional replication in order to undergo the healing process and the number of times that a body's cells can divide is predetermined.

Shizune bringing it up after Tsunade revealed her regeneration doesn't suddenly isolate that consequence to _Sōzō Saisei_. It is no coincidence that Sasuke noted _Susano'o_, a Jutsu stated to drain the user's very life, was hurting every cell in his body. The drawback was only brought up in that moment because Tsunade was explicitly informing Orochimaru of the Jutsu's mechanics and because its process transpires far faster.

Just because regeneration _can_ deal with fatal wounds doesn't mean that it can't also be used on peripheral ones; the end all cost of the technique is still proportionate to the extent of the damage being sustained regardless of the speed at which it is restored, so it doesn't imply that her wounds were actually fatal by virtue of common sense or by virtue of any other type of logic besides wishful thinking carrying less of a basis than the claim that the damage was superficial, especially considering that the rate of restoration is superior.



> So what you're saying is, Madara cut her in half with Susano'o, grew a tree, and placed her separated body parts in a way that makes it appear exactly as if the tree was the cause of the bisection.



He may very well have in order to prevent her from re-attaching herself.


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## Bonly (Mar 19, 2014)

Yeah. If Gai can't manage to take out Tsunade in the 7th Gate(which I personally think he can) then Gai with the 8th gate can do it for sure.


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## Rocky (Mar 19, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Obito already regenerated the damage another Rasengan did to his shoulder before the Ten Tails was even revived iirc.




I believe his arm stayed as it was after suffering the effects of Rasengan.



> Just because regeneration _can_ deal with fatal wounds doesn't mean that it can't also be used on peripheral ones; the end all cost of the technique is still proportionate to the extent of the damage being sustained regardless of the speed at which it is restored, so it doesn't imply that her wounds were actually fatal by virtue of common sense or by virtue of any other type of logic besides wishful thinking carrying less of a basis than the claim that the damage was superficial, especially considering that the rate of restoration is superior.




Interesting. If I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that all medical Ninjutsu will shorten life (because of all it essentially functions the same way) and the reason that this is normally associated with Creation Rebirth alone is because of the timing of Tsunade's explanation.

*"The end all cost of the technique is still proportionate to the extent of the damage being sustained regardless of the speed at which it is restored"*

Would this mean that using Creation Rebirth to restore, say, a cut on the cheek would be no more damaging to Tsunade then using the simple Shōsen technique? If so, then I have one question. Why is Creation Rebirth labeled a Kinjutsu in the Databook, while Shōsen is not? You could argue that Creation Rebirth has the _potential_ to cause significant harm to the user if they are healing off major amounts of damage, but so would Shōsen if the medic chose that as their method of restoration. 

It sounds as if you're claiming that Creation Rebirth (& Byakugo) carry no actual drawback. They are superior in every way to standard medical Ninjutsu. I'm not sure what to think about that.

Furthermore, from a bit of a portrayal standpoint, you seem to be insinuating that Tsunade did not actually require her Yin-seal to survive the transportation technique. If her wounds were indeed peripheral, then theoretically, Shōsen would have accomplished the same exact thing. Creation Rebirth was used merely for connivence. That doesn't sit right with me; everything in the Manga pointed to Tsunade _needing_ her forbidden Jutsu to survive its effects. Whether it be the dialogue leading up to the transfer, or Tsunade's actual actions after, all suggest that she had to activate Creation Rebirth. The only thing that would point the other direction is the interpretation of her actual injuries, ie."they don't look bad, so they aren't."

Now I may be cheating a bit here with a semi-circular argument. Using portrayal as a basis to say that she needed CR and _then_ saying that the wounds were fatal _because_ she needed Creation Rebirth isn't exactly sound. But hey, I'm not the expert on this character, that's you. I'm just spewing thoughts. So, a few questions:


Why isn't Shōsen classified as Kinjutsu if it essentially "harms" the user in the same way that Genesis Rebirth does (shortening of the life)?
Would you agree that portrayal & author intent imply that Tsunade needed Creation Rebirth of survive the transfer technique, or could Shōsen hypothetically have sufficed?
Did Tsunade's injuries appear serious to you?
Honestly, why _did_ Tsunade use the Creation Rebirth (rather than Shōsen) to heal her injuries from the transport technique? Convenience? Efficiency? 




> He may very well have in order to prevent her from re-attaching herself.




He didn't know she could do that, and the tree doesn't stop her from doing so anyway.


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## Veracity (Mar 19, 2014)

Did I just seriously see someone say that SM Jirayia is physically stronger then Tsunade. Lol that's cute.

OT: 8th gate Gai can destroy Tsunade. It's not even up for debate at this point. She simply cannot even defend for anything. She gets wiped of the planet with each punch. As much as I love Tsunade, she simply cannot do anything. Although it basically is a stalemate. But any other Gai is basically losing to Tsunade. She simply outlasts. Gai can never really best her just stalemate her basically .


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## Lurko (Mar 19, 2014)

Afternoon tiger is the end of the old hag.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I believe his arm stayed as it was after suffering the effects of Rasengan.




_Well..._



> Interesting. If I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that all medical Ninjutsu will shorten life (because of all it essentially functions the same way) and the reason that this is normally associated with Creation Rebirth alone is because of the timing of Tsunade's explanation.




That's pretty much it.

All injuries period will shorten life due to the fact that said injuries healing will require cells to divide and use up some of the fixed number of times division is possible, whether the healing be stimulated by Shosen, regeneration, etc or not.



> *"The end all cost of the technique is still proportionate to the extent of the damage being sustained regardless of the speed at which it is restored"*
> 
> Would this mean that using Creation Rebirth to restore, say, a cut on the cheek would be no more damaging to Tsunade then using the simple Shōsen technique? If so, then I have one question. Why is Creation Rebirth labeled a Kinjutsu in the Databook, while Shōsen is not? You could argue that Creation Rebirth has the _potential_ to cause significant harm to the user if they are healing off major amounts of damage, but so would Shōsen if the medic chose that as their method of restoration.




_Sōzō Saisei_ has the potential to heal wounds beyond what _Shosen_ is capable of restoring, though such would inherently be at the cost of much more Chakra and the excessive shortening of one's life. The former by itself was the grounds upon which _Tajū Kage Bunshin_ was labeled a Kinjutsu- because most ninja couldn't use it without risking their life due to the cost, despite the fact that the amount of Chakra required is the only disconnect between it and the standard _Kage Bunshin no Jutsu_.

Tsunade has more freedom to use the technique due both to her incredible longevity stemming from her Uzumaki heritage and to her especially large Chakra pools, but the the grand majority of ninja don't share her physical gifts and in all likelihood wouldn't be able to pull it off.



> Furthermore, from a bit of a portrayal standpoint, you seem to be insinuating that Tsunade did not actually require her Yin-seal to survive the transportation technique. If her wounds were indeed peripheral, then theoretically, Shōsen would have accomplished the same exact thing. Creation Rebirth was used merely for connivence. That doesn't sit right with me; everything in the Manga pointed to Tsunade _needing_ her forbidden Jutsu to survive its effects. Whether it be the dialogue leading up to the transfer, or Tsunade's actual actions after, all suggest that she had to activate Creation Rebirth. The only thing that would point the other direction is the interpretation of her actual injuries, ie."they don't look bad, so they aren't."




The dialogue leading up to the transfer would be attributed to the Mabui's assertion that Tsunade would have been shredded to ribbons because everyone else bar the Third Raikage was and came out dead on the other side because of it. _That's_ what they were going to need her regeneration for, but Tsunade was more durable than they had anticipated (Raikage was as well), and thus came out with comparatively superficial injuries.

She still used her regeneration anyways, but that _can't_ be very telling of the level of her injuries considering that Tsunade herself stated that the wounds _weren't nearly as bad_ as the ones she was dealing with during the Invasion of Pein, and that said wounds were dealt with by her siphoning out Chakra to Katsuyu so she could _Shosen_ every injured person she came across.



> Now I may be cheating a bit here with a semi-circular argument. Using portrayal as a basis to say that she needed CR and _then_ saying that the wounds were fatal _because_ she needed Creation Rebirth isn't exactly sound. But hey, I'm not the expert on this character, that's you. I'm just spewing thoughts. So, a few questions:
> 
> 
> Why isn't Shōsen classified as Kinjutsu if it essentially "harms" the user in the same way that Genesis Rebirth does (shortening of the life)?
> ...




I really wish I had seen this tl;dr list of questions before I went through the paragraphs in their entirety. 


_*1.)*_ Explained above.
_*2.)*_ No, for reasons laid out above.
_*3.)*_ They seemed minor to me, and apparently they seemed that way to Tsunade, too.
_*4.)*_ Convenience would be my answer. Even if she didn't know about Madara's true powers, I'd think she was wary enough of him that she would have been trying to act as hastily as possible. _Shosen_ is a slower and less efficient process.



> He didn't know she could do that, and the tree doesn't stop her from doing so anyway.




I'm one of the seemingly few that subscribes to the mentality that Madara is not above taking precautions.

The tree would have stopped her had it not been for the fact that she could bring out some huge legendary slug, but that's something Madara had been given no reason to suspect as a possibility, unlike Tsunade's demonstrations of astonishing, even inhuman, resilience.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 20, 2014)

> She still used her regeneration anyways, but that can't be very telling of the level of her injuries considering that Tsunade herself stated that the wounds weren't nearly as bad as the ones she was dealing with during the Invasion of Pein, and that said wounds were dealt with by her siphoning out Chakra to Katsuyu so she could Shosen every injured person she came across.



There's also the fact that normal shosen is slow, while SS is near instant total recovery, and Tsunade needed to be in perfect condition _right now_ in order to heal the Gokage so they could all fight Madara.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 20, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




Byako seems to be an auto-functioning thing.  

Actually there's something cool to check out.  If you look at the Karen latest feats, you can see that she gets stabbed through her everything, and starts to die.  As in, fade away and tune out, but she bites herself, and perks up.  That happens even though the wood pikes are still in her, and still through all her organs and stuff, so really she should die immediately again.  Though she doesn't, because she got a heal boost.  It went much the same way that Chiyo didn't fix Sakura's problems properly, but saved her with life force.  Then Karen takes the thorns out, and bites herself again.  I imagine SS/Byako does the same thing.  

I don't know what that has to do with anything, but it was neat.


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2014)

Good post man. You pointed out things I hadn't really realized. Just a few things: 



FlamingRain said:


> _Well..._




Again, interesting. That's a strange feat though, considering the healing took place multiple chapters after the injury was sustained. 




> The dialogue leading up to the transfer would be attributed to the Mabui's assertion that Tsunade would have been shredded to ribbons because everyone else bar the Third Raikage was and came out dead on the other side because of it. _That's_ what they were going to need her regeneration for, but Tsunade was more durable than they had anticipated (Raikage was as well), and thus came out with comparatively superficial injuries.




 

Tsunade seemed to agree with them originally. She was more durable than she herself anticipated? Meh, I suppose you could also say that the technique was less powerful than she originally anticipated, though I feel Mabui explained what it did pretty well....



> I'm one of the seemingly few that subscribes to the mentality that Madara is not above taking precautions.
> 
> The tree would have stopped her had it not been for the fact that she could bring out some huge legendary slug, but that's something Madara had been given no reason to suspect as a possibility, unlike Tsunade's demonstrations of astonishing, even inhuman, resilience.




He isn't above taking precaution...but I don't see why he would particularly care if Tsunade put herself back together. The five Kage weren't really a threat to him, especially with Perfect Susano'o having no effect on his stamina. He had little need for caution..

Also, I'm not seeing where the tree comes it. If he was truly worried about Tsunade putting herself back together (btw, with what?), he could have just grabbed Tsunade's lower half with Susano'o and ran off with it....

Seems easier than placing each of her separated ends on opposite sides of a giant tree (that he would've had to grow).


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## FlamingRain (Mar 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Good post man. You pointed out things I hadn't really realized.



Thanks. 



> Again, interesting. That's a strange feat though, considering the healing took place multiple chapters after the injury was sustained.



Maybe Obito didn't care until Madara showed up and he wanted to look cool or something.



> Tsunade seemed to agree with them originally. She was more durable than she herself anticipated? Meh, I suppose you could also say that the technique was less powerful than she originally anticipated, though I feel Mabui explained what it did pretty well....



I think the latter is most likely. I truly doubt Tsunade's had experience with being shot at light-speed before, especially since she initially told Mabui they'd never know until they tried, and all she had to go off of was the supposed "strongest shield" surviving it and everyone else dying.

Either that or she was just looking for other ways to get Mabui to let her do it.



> He isn't above taking precaution...but I don't see why he would particularly care if Tsunade put herself back together. The five Kage weren't really a threat to him, especially with Perfect Susano'o having no effect on his stamina.



They weren't a threat, but he still wanted them dead (Tsunade most of all, apparently).

I think it's possible he suspected that if he just left her there she might reach down and pull her halves back together, so he grew the tree there as a half-hearted screw you divider not knowing that she had a magical slug that could do it for her.

I don't exactly think he would have picked up both halves and put them on opposite sides of the tree so much as he just decided to overlay the tree in the middle so he can say Tsunade can't handle her grandfather's wood in weird ways.

But again, I'm just saying what he _may have_ done.


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## Rocky (Mar 20, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't exactly think he would have picked up both halves and put them on opposite sides of the tree so much as he just decided to overlay the tree in the middle so he can say Tsunade can't handle her grandfather's wood in weird ways.
> 
> But again, I'm just saying what he _may have_ done.




 

There's not much to debate anymore. We've pretty much settled things. I still think it's a bit odd that Madara would use Mokuton to keep Tsunade separated as opposed to...grabbing her legs and throwing them through the air like a rag doll. He could have even takien them with him to meet Obito.

It's still speculation though, so yeah.

I concede the point. I still think Gai wins though.


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## Super Chief (Mar 20, 2014)

Toss up, but generally I thinkTsunade wins due to her healing ability, Katsuyu and monstrous strength with high to extreme difficulty.


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## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But didn't that happened before she died? I mean, look at Hashirama, he has his own Byakugo that if we count the "Because he is Hashirama" hype, should be above and he died in combat, therefore his Byakugo could not revive him from the dead.

Or am i understanding something wrong?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You see, I just don't buy into "it was for efficiency & convince."  If they were just minor cuts, she would have either ignored them or ran her hand quickly over her body, patching them up, imo. I think she keeps CR in store for more problematic injuries.
> 
> We may just have to disagree on the point, because we're arguing Tsunade's character really.



" Strike down the medic first in a platoon, a basic tactic. " - Mei Terumi

Tsunade knew she would potentially be a prime target for being attacked. Furthermore, she was up against Madara Uchiha. He took out an entire division at once and could equal Hashirama in combat. I highly doubt Tsunade was going to waste her time healing against a foe that could easily kill her while she was defenceless. Furthermore, I see no reason why the medical ninja would spend lengthy periods of time healing _herself_ whenever patients (Onoki and Gaara) were in semi-critical conditions.

Besides, Tsunade had planned from the very outset to use her seal, using regular medical ninjutsu to recover from Mabui's jutsu was never her intention even if it was possible. Taking into account the fact that her injuries consisted of only deep cuts, as well as _the comment_ she made specifically relating to those injuries, I think it's far more likely that she relied on Sozou Saisei because it would allow her to heal more quickly.

Heck, Shizune admitted to _being capable_ of healing Tsunade's wounds during the fight against Orochimaru, but she ignored her attendant's offer and decided to recover in a more efficient method.​​


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## TheGreen1 (Mar 24, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Yeah. If Gai can't manage to take out Tsunade in the 7th Gate(which I personally think he can) then Gai with the 8th gate can do it for sure.



Gai in 7th gate kicked Madara out of his Susano'o. I have to find the scan, but he got Madara out of Susano'o. Nobody else really did. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he'd kill Tsunade without much trouble.


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## Wolfstein (Mar 24, 2014)

Gate Seven Asakujaku should ends this. 

Morning Peacock is much better suited for combating Tsunade (and her OP healing), and in my personal opinion dishes out much more raw single target damage then Hirudora.


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## Super Chief (Mar 24, 2014)

Kisame survived Hirudora and was moving later. Tsunade has tanked worse than that. Gai would have to go Eight Gates to have a serious chance at killing her. Tsunade wins more times than she loses.


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## SSMG (Mar 24, 2014)

Seventh gate eats her for breakfest. 
he ia faster than tobirama and minato while he is in seventh gate. So tsunade can only defend herself by healing tbe damage done. she has no hope of hiiting guy if guy doesnt want to be hit.

tsunade has run out of chakra what like four times in this qar? her stamina is a joke. compared to guy a person who fought kisame right before the war with no rest time.. has been fighting for a whole day longer than tsunade in this war. he also is using a more taxibg technique.. yet hes only run out once. 

and DC guy in seventh gaye has at mininual nuclear level forces in his AT tsunade cracks the ground a littile with her punches... its not even close in this catagory.

heck this fight isnt close at all.
 guy in base could possibly beat her.


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## trance (Mar 24, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Kisame survived Hirudora and was moving later.



Kisame has more durability than Tsunade and he was left incapacitated afterwards.



> Tsunade has tanked worse than that.



I'm a bit rusty with Naruto. Mind telling me what she tanked that was on par with or stronger than Hirudora? 



> Gai would have to go Eight Gates to have a serious chance at killing her



No. If Gai goes into the Eight Gates, Tsunade dies. That's a fact.



SSMG said:


> guy in base could possibly beat her.



Oh, you went there. 

Inb4Tsunadewankers. :ignoramus


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## Mithos (Mar 24, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Kisame has more durability than Tsunade and he was left incapacitated afterwards.



Has more durability based on what? 

Tsunade was stabbed and slashed by the Kusanagi and still got up and kicked Orochimaru before she healed. She took Yasaka Magatama point blank and was barely phased. She deflected Madara's fireballs and brushed off the burns. She fought with her muscles severed and her intercostal muscles cut when she shouldn't have been able to even breathe. She survived Mabui's transportation technique which was stated to "rip to shreds" any normal person. 

She was still able to attack Madara with a severed spine and she was smashing Susano'o clones while impaled by 2 Susano'o swords. 

And she survived being cut in half and was still able to stay conscious so she could summon Katsuyu and save the other Gokage. 

Her feats of survivability are much better than Kisame's.  




> I'm a bit rusty with Naruto. Mind telling me what she tanked that was on par with or stronger than Hirudora?



She's tanked attacks that have destroyed her spine and internal organs and kept fighting. Whatever damage Hirudora does to her will be healed. 



> No. If Gai goes into the Eight Gates, Tsunade dies. That's a fact.



And so does Gai


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## SSMG (Mar 24, 2014)

Yeah she kept fighting for like a half chapter until she needed to be saved from the dan spirit and replenished her chakra. she was also given chakra again by karin and she is currentky out of chakra in the manga.

one of base guys attacks crushed a boulder in mid air without smashing it into the grounds but made it burst from the inpact of his numchuku. meaning every hit base guy would hit her with would be boukder crush strength and it would cause her to heal her entire body to the point of exhausting herself.

that one combo base guy dud to obiyo would wreck tsunade.


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## Naiad (Mar 24, 2014)

she fought half a day with byakugo activated! i dont see your mentioned joke


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## Veracity (Mar 24, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Yeah she kept fighting for like a half chapter until she needed to be saved from the dan spirit and replenished her chakra. she was also given chakra again by karin and she is currentky out of chakra in the manga.
> 
> one of base guys attacks crushed a boulder in mid air without smashing it into the grounds but made it burst from the inpact of his numchuku. meaning every hit base guy would hit her with would be boukder crush strength and it would cause her to heal her entire body to the point of exhausting herself.
> 
> that one combo base guy dud to obiyo would wreck tsunade.



Tsunade fought Madara Uchiha for hours while chakra and health replenishing her entire team. She also has a feat of healing thousands upon thousands of ninja. Where the hell do you get that Gai even has a chance of outlasting her ? Lol.

Tsunade
Completely crushed a boulder with her back without the use of her regeneration and suffered Absolutely zero injuries ; Link removed
and also tanked that Yasaka with zero damage.


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## Super Chief (Mar 24, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Kisame has more durability than Tsunade and he was left incapacitated afterwards.



Hardly anyone has higher durability than Tsunade and Kisame sure as fuck isn't one of them.


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## Wolfstein (Mar 24, 2014)

Logically speaking, Tsunade probably can survive Hirudora (the one performed on Kisame at least). But like Jad has mentioned (and I agree 100%) Gai should realistically be able to launch multiple Hirudora's which should be able to screw he up pretty bad. If push comes to shove he can hit her with a point blank Hirudora, which will be a little more difficult to shake off. 

Asakujaku is different story though, and I don't see her surviving it. Especially if it is performed multiple times.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 24, 2014)

Wolfstein said:


> * If push comes to shove he can hit her with a point blank Hirudora, which will be a little more difficult to shake off. *



Yes tsunade is not taking this and being ready to fight afterwards without katsuyu. I used to think while he got ready to use it she could lessen the damage with katsuyu tanking. CQC AT does not allow for that anymore.


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## Mithos (Mar 25, 2014)

Wolfstein said:


> Logically speaking, Tsunade probably can survive Hirudora (the one performed on Kisame at least). But like Jad has mentioned (and I agree 100%) Gai should realistically be able to launch multiple Hirudora's which should be able to screw he up pretty bad. If push comes to shove he can hit her with a point blank Hirudora, which will be a little more difficult to shake off.
> 
> Asakujaku is different story though, and I don't see her surviving it. Especially if it is performed multiple times.



Can you tell me why? 

Asakujaku failed to do noticeable damage to Shouten Kisame's body. The worse damage there could have been is some broken bones and ruptured organs, but even that doesn't seem likely given how the body was perfectly intact. 

Tsunade had no problem fighting with a severed spined and skwered organs, let alone surviving damage like that. 



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Yes tsunade is not taking this and being ready to fight afterwards without katsuyu. I used to think while he got ready to use it she could lessen the damage with katsuyu tanking. CQC AT does not allow for that anymore.



Tsunade was "ready to fight" with a severed spine and the majority of her internal organs obliterated by Susano'o swords. The damage AT does is not exceeding that, even at close range.


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## Miyoshi (Mar 25, 2014)

*Creation Rebirth. *


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## tkpirate (Mar 25, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Hardly anyone has higher durability than Tsunade .



her durability isn't good at all,she has good regen.there are many characters who have better durability than her.


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## ScottofFury (Mar 25, 2014)

How are people still debating, 7th gate Gai kicks the shit our of her and then Hidora's her in the face.


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## SSMG (Mar 25, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tsunade fought Madara Uchiha for hours while chakra and health replenishing her entire team. She also has a feat of healing thousands upon thousands of ninja. Where the hell do you get that Gai even has a chance of outlasting her ? Lol.
> 
> Tsunade
> Completely crushed a boulder with her back without the use of her regeneration and suffered Absolutely zero injuries ; this
> and also tanked that Yasaka with zero damage.



Yeah she fights for a few hours and has to have her chakra restored. Shes had to be restored two tines since this war started and she is currently put of chakra again in the manga. also coue the fact that she joined the war a day late... also considering that guy has been fighting in gates the entire time.. also consider how guy fought kisame rigjt before this war... i shouldnt have to tell you how guy is able to outlast tsunade whwn the proof is in the pudding. tsunade cant last more than a few hrs fighting at her hiygh levels ... and guy can fight for days in his higher levels.


also is that link you sent me a joke? tsunade got sent flying into the boulder by madara and the impact crushed it. or are you going to argue muu can crush boulders because he smashed into rock when raikage hit him? No its ridiculous. likewise tsunade didnt use any physical force with break that rock.

also even if she did the feat youre claiming she did.. which she didnt. guys feat would be great than it. its like if youre trying to smash a small rock. put in on the ground and smash it itll be easy to break. but throw it up in the air, trying hitting it with the same force... and youll just send the rock to the ground intact. guy made a midair rock shatter... which as i have said is harder than just busfing intact rock in the dirt... and thats base guy...


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## trance (Mar 25, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> Has more durability based on what?
> 
> Tsunade was stabbed and slashed by the Kusanagi and still got up and kicked Orochimaru before she healed. She took Yasaka Magatama point blank and was barely phased. She deflected Madara's fireballs and brushed off the burns. She fought with her muscles severed and her intercostal muscles cut when she shouldn't have been able to even breathe. She survived Mabui's transportation technique which was stated to "rip to shreds" any normal person.
> 
> ...



Endurance and durability are two different things.



Super Chief said:


> Hardly anyone has higher durability than Tsunade and Kisame sure as fuck isn't one of them.



Tsunade's durability isn't all that. It's her regeneration that makes her hard to kill. Ei has more durability than her but because he lacks her regeneration, he's easier to put down (in base form at least).


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## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Mar 25, 2014)

People are funny, Tsunade will die so easily from gai. He's tiers above this bitch. Base guy and tsunade are roughly around the same level. 

Tsunade is no way in hell avoiding or regenerating from morning peacock. she'd be having her body pounded by gai's supersonic flaming fists. He'll punch a hold through her skull and fry her brain. She'll already be dead by the time he's finished his onslaught. 

She'll most likely still be standing after taking a hirudora to the face, but it'll leave her in critical condition, and she'll need time to recover. Gai would of already had decapitated her head by then.

Gated guy against tsunade is overkill.


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## SSMG (Mar 25, 2014)

EDIT@Undying

Most of the things on that list were describing her regen feats... not so much outright durability feats. i know that technically regen is durability but he means if she still is affected by something then she didnt outright tank it with no damage.


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## Mithos (Mar 25, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Endurance and durability are two different things.
> 
> 
> 
> Tsunade's durability isn't all that. It's her regeneration that makes her hard to kill. Ei has more durability than her but because he lacks her regeneration, he's easier to put down (in base form at least).



Yes they are. 

But I did mention Tsunade took Yasaka Magatama at point blank range and was unphased. Yasaka Magatama which Itachi described as his strongest ranged attack and which Oonoki and Gaara erected a double defense against. She also did come out of Mabui's teleportation intact and in good enough condition to react to Madara and kick him, despite Mabui warning that it would tear someone to shreds. She has good durability feats. 

And the regeneration feats I provided show that she will survive attacks that should kill her. I see some posters arguing that Gai can inflict so much damage she dies before her regeneration can kick in, but that wasn't the case when her spine was severed. And she can remain conscious and use jutsu even when split in half. So how exactly does Gai do so much more damage than severing her spine and rupturing all of her organs - something that barely even phased her - or cutting her in half? 

Conventional attacks such as slicing/stabbing and blunt force trauma are largely ineffective against Tsunade's regeneration, which is why it's received so much hype: Tsunade stating she can't die by any means; Ei stating that "even if you can't die you'll exhaust yourself fighting like that"; the DB entry for Souzou Saisei also stressing her inability to die. Now of course she can die; I'm not arguing she can't. But with its hype and feats, I find it really hard to believe that Gai can overcome Byakugou despite his techniques never showing to do more damage than things she's been shown to shrug off and regenerate almost as if they never happened.

Her regeneration has also been compared to Hashirama's, which Madara gained after he got his real body back - regeneration that allowed him to easily survive being used as a ping pong ball by the Bijuu.


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## The Undying (Mar 25, 2014)

SSMG said:


> EDIT@Undying
> 
> Most of the things on that list were describing her regen feats... not so much outright durability feats. i know that technically regen is durability but he means if she still is affected by something then she didnt outright tank it with no damage.




I understand what you're saying, and that's kinda why I deleted my post, because at this rate the whole argument is converting into a battle over semantics.

Basically the point is this: Tsunade is very, very hard to kill. Regen or not, she has survived certain things that would have otherwise instantly killed most normal human beings; including Mabui's teleportation and Madara's giant Susanoo blades filling about 50% of her entire torso.


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## Super Chief (Mar 25, 2014)

Regenerative abilities are a part of durability as far as I'm concerned. The fact that Tsunade has been able to not only one survive but shake off otherwise lethal injuries is a testament to her ability. Nothing short of Eight Gate Gai will be enough to put her down, and that's assuming Gai is A) desperate enough to do it, and B) doesn't die before that.


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## LostSelf (Mar 25, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Regenerative abilities are a part of durability as far as I'm concerned. The fact that Tsunade has been able to not only one survive but shake off otherwise lethal injuries is a testament to her ability. Nothing short of Eight Gate Gai will be enough to put her down, and that's assuming Gai is A) desperate enough to do it, and B) doesn't die before that.



You mean dying because of gates usage?


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## Veracity (Mar 25, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Yeah she fights for a few hours and has to have her chakra restored. Shes had to be restored two tines since this war started and she is currently put of chakra again in the manga. also coue the fact that she joined the war a day late... also considering that guy has been fighting in gates the entire time.. also consider how guy fought kisame rigjt before this war... i shouldnt have to tell you how guy is able to outlast tsunade whwn the proof is in the pudding. tsunade cant last more than a few hrs fighting at her hiygh levels ... and guy can fight for days in his higher levels.
> 
> 
> also is that link you sent me a joke? tsunade got sent flying into the boulder by madara and the impact crushed it. or are you going to argue muu can crush boulders because he smashed into rock when raikage hit him? No its ridiculous. likewise tsunade didnt use any physical force with break that rock.
> ...



You serious right now ? Tsunade has to be healed because she constantly heals ninja and chakra boosts others. She also uses a technique that wastes away at chakra nearly as fast as gates mode( Byakugo ) and continues to fight and constantly regen. Fighting + Healing + Chakra boosting> Fighting 

Gai has also been chakra replenished many times throughout the war. That's that's the medical unit is for. Chakra replenishing and healing wounds. Gai and Kakashi both  have been healed between intervals of fighting. It's only logical.

It's also to note that Gai isn't ever in gates for an extended amount of time and the level of ninja he is facing compared to Tsunade. Let's just lay it out:

? Gai fought the 7 Swordsman( elite Jounin lvl) for a good amount of time while completely in base. He was then chakra replenished between the night and morning.

? Gai then arrives to help Naruto and bee fight the Bjuii( low Kage level)  in a healthy state. He fights them for a good amount of time with some usage from lower level gates( 1-3), he then uses the 6th gate for a single attack then reverts back to base.

? He then fights Madara , Gedo, and Obito( god tier ) while in base for a extended amount of time, uses the gates for a bit against Mazo , then uses the 7 gate one attack then reverts to base.

? Then he watches the top tiers fight Juubito, and is chakra replenished by Tsunade and Sakura before helping against the god tree.

?  He then enters the second gate to save Kakashi, and then enters the 7th for one single combo against Madara(god tier) before entering the 8th gate.

If you actually look at it, the only impressive stamina feat Gai has potrayed was between the Bjuii and Obito/ Madara fights. And even then he was primarily in base as opposed to little gate usage with the 7th and 6th gate being used for singular techniques.

Now Tsunade lay out:

? arrives at battlefield, then heals and chakra replenishes both Onnoki and Gaara. 

? then fights Madara Uchiha( god tier) for hours while using Byakago( huge chakra waster ) while healing( takes a lot of chakra to heal minor wounds) and chakra replenishing 4 other Kage members. Is chakra replicated and again fights Madara and PS and maintains mortal wounds.  Then had the chakra to summon a building sized slug( average summonings take a good deal of chakra) and begin to heal mortally wounded Kage and pull herself together. She actually had the chakra to do so, just not enough time.

? Then arrives at the battlefield and summons Katusyu and starts healing thousands of ninja against the god tree( which can instantly kill enemies) and is now running low on chakra.

Healing + fighting + contant usage of Byakago >> fighting in base and minor usage of gates .

It's also to note that Byakago and gates both run the body down at similar rates. Byakago allows the user to constantly be using chakra to replenish wounds. Tsunade is a tank meaning she walks into attacks and is in constant need of Byakago practically.

The boulder feat has NOTHING to do with strength. It's a Durability feat lol. You said that because Gai an crush boulders with his nun-chucks that he should be able to destroy Tsunade. I simply provided a feat of her reducing a boulder to rubble with her back and sustaining zero damage. She also outright tanked that Yasaka with zero damage. If you wanted to strentgh feat there is one of Tsunade creating a crater with her finger: this
And lifting a building sized tanto without effort ; this
All while rusty btw. She's def stronger then Gai. Not even you can deny that.


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## Trojan (Mar 25, 2014)

Tsunade is stronger than any version of guy except the 8th gated one. Even though 8gated guy is tons times
stronger than all 5 kages combined, but he's still going to die at the end of the day, which makes this match
a tie.


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## LostSelf (Mar 25, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Tsunade is stronger than any version of guy except the 8th gated one. Even though 8gated guy is tons times
> stronger than all 5 kages combined, but he's still going to die at the end of the day, which makes this match
> a tie.



Yeah, both die. But Gai is not dying because of Tsunade, he is killing himself .


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## RBL (Mar 25, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Tsunade is stronger than any version of guy except the 8th gated one. Even though 8gated guy is tons times
> stronger than all 5 kages combined, but he's still going to die at the end of the day, which makes this match
> a tie.



naaaah, even six gated guy > tsunade in a 1 vs 1 .


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## Trojan (Mar 25, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Yeah, both die. But Gai is not dying because of Tsunade, he is killing himself .



It does not really matter, especially that he will need that to kill her, or else she will kill him. So, it's
just him being forced here.


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## Mercurial (Mar 25, 2014)

Gai is on another tier than Tsunade, bu feats, hype, portrayal, everything you may like. A worn out base Gai can hold off Obito's Kamui with just reflexes and taijutsu skill. A 7th Gate Gai can pressure Juubidara with his speed and taijutsu, Minato with Hiraishin was blitzed and stomped in a millisecond. Madara has directly compared 8th Gate to fucking Hashirama Senju, and by feats 8th Gate Gai is actually stronger. Gai is the rival of a shinobi of Kakashi's caliber.

LOL at Tsunade, and this is with deep respect for her character. But she is far outclassed.


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## LostSelf (Mar 25, 2014)

New Folder said:


> It does not really matter, especially that he will need that to kill her, or else she will kill him. So, it's
> just him being forced here.



Actually, letting the argument of Gai outspeeding her regen in the 7th gates aside to avoid debating something i've done a lot of times to no avail, Tsunade can only kill Gai because Gai fucking want to.

Because, think about it. He can go to the shop, buy a Katana, go 7th gate and chop her head off. Nothing prevents him from that, but he doesn't .


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## Trojan (Mar 25, 2014)

Mmm Is not going out of the battlefield consider as an automatic lose in this section? @>@


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## LostSelf (Mar 25, 2014)

Yes, it does. I am just saying that if Gai wants to kill her, he just needs to get a Katana, and he has the speed and skills to do so with one .

If somehow they fight and Gai only uses blunt force attacks story wise and he loses, is not because he didn't have the skills to do it, it's because he didn't have the adequate weapon, or didn't bother using it. Not because he is weaker than her .

Aside from that, an argument can be made of him beating her regen.


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## Super Chief (Mar 25, 2014)

Brandon Lee said:


> naaaah, even six gated guy > tsunade in a 1 vs 1 .



Get this trite shit out of here. What a terrible post.


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## RBL (Mar 25, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Get this trite shit out of here. What a terrible post.



ok asstonnine


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## tkpirate (Mar 26, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> The fact that Tsunade has been able to not only one survive but shake off otherwise lethal injuries is a testament to her ability. Nothing short of Eight Gate Gai will be enough to put her down, and that's assuming Gai is A) desperate enough to do it, and B) doesn't die before that.



not really.Gai will badly out speed Tsunade even in 7th gate.though Tsunade has good regen feats,but she never took a attack as strong as AT,a attack that can make a island look small.i think 2 AT's will be enough to kill her.


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## J★J♥ (Mar 26, 2014)

Base Guy has enough speed and strength to smash her brains out.


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## Veracity (Mar 26, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> not really.Gai will badly out speed Tsunade even in 7th gate.though Tsunade has good regen feats,but she never took a attack as strong as AT,a attack that can make a island look small.i think 2 AT's will be enough to kill her.



Actually AT isn't that strong tbh. A big AoE doesn't mean much.

Kisame TANKED a nigh direct AT plus a direct 7th gated punch with little to zero injury as he was able to physically muscle out of Mokuton,  create a water dome before being hit by a Gai punch, then summon gates to commit suicide.

Kisame also displayed pain when being hit by a flash shunshin KCM Naruto kick and was severely injured by a V1 Lariat.


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## tkpirate (Mar 26, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Actually AT isn't that strong tbh. A big AoE doesn't mean much.
> 
> Kisame TANKED a nigh direct AT plus a direct 7th gated punch with little to zero injury as he was able to physically muscle out of Mokuton,  create a water dome before being hit by a Gai punch, then summon gates to commit suicide.
> 
> Kisame also displayed pain when being hit by a flash shunshin KCM Naruto kick and was severely injured by a V1 Lariat.



Tsunade never took an attack even as strong as AT.and a AT done in base by Gai destroyed Madara's susanoo completely,a AT done in 7th gate would only be stronger.Kisame surviving the AT would only mean he has good durability,not that the attack is weak.kisame wasn't injured by KCM Naruto's kick,and a even weaker(?) V1 Lariat almost killed sasuke.and i'm not saying that 1 AT will be enough to kill Tsunade,but 2 of them will do the job.


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## Hero (Mar 26, 2014)

Even with the 8th gate, Gai still can't defeat Tsunade in the battledome . Poor thing


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## Veracity (Mar 26, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> Tsunade never took an attack even as strong as AT.and a AT done in base by Gai destroyed Madara's susanoo completely,a AT done in 7th gate would only be stronger.Kisame surviving the AT would only mean he has good durability,not that the attack is weak.kisame wasn't injured by KCM Naruto's kick,and a even weaker(?) V1 Lariat almost killed sasuke.and i'm not saying that 1 AT will be enough to kill Tsunade,but 2 of them will do the job.



She hasn't been in the situation yet ..

1) Gai was not in base. It was a simple art error . It has been said manga times that AT is a seventh gated attack . Which explains why it wasn't mentioned as to why he was in "base ." It's also to note that it would be physically impossible to punch as fast as he was in 7th gate( considering AT is just an extremely fast punch) while in base + exhausted.

2) It did not destroy Madara's Sussano, it merely pushed him off panel. It Kishi wanted to show the true power of AT, why not show to destroying Sussano instead of simply moving it ? This also explains why Kisame could survive with almost no injuries.

3) Kisame is durable but he has been injured. Like here:
inside
And here ;inside

AT had less effect then both of those techniques.


In all honesty despite how much of a fan boy I sound, I really have doubts against even three AT's flooring a Byakago Tsunade. That's not even taking into account Katsuyu..


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## tkpirate (Mar 26, 2014)

^ 1.nope.we have to believe what is shown on-panel.and Gai didn't have his gates activated while using that AT.2.we see in the next chapter that Madara susanoo was destroyed.also Kisame didn't get hit directly,so he didn't really tanked the entire attack.3.yeah,again Kisame didn't took the entire AT.and he wasn't defeated by those 2 attacks and was able to fight even after getting hit by them.and he was defeated and wasn't able to fight,after getting hit by AT though it wasn't even a direct hit.


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## Veracity (Mar 26, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> ^ 1.nope.we have to believe what is shown on-panel.and Gai didn't have his gates activated while using that AT.2.we see in the next chapter that Madara susanoo was destroyed.also Kisame didn't get hit directly,so he didn't really tanked the entire attack.3.yeah,again Kisame didn't took the entire AT.and he wasn't defeated by those 2 attacks and was able to fight even after getting hit by them.and he was defeated and wasn't able to fight,after getting hit by AT though it wasn't even a direct hit.



You serious ? If we have to believe what's on panel then Gais AT didn't destroy Sussano simple is that. It was never shown on panel lol so it didn't happen. That's shitttt logic lol. It didn't matter if Gai was base or not, his AT simply has the power of a  Suiton Justu considering it just pushed Sussano.

Lol you know Uchiha can deactivate Sussano right ? It was never shown being destroyed. Madara was only hit of it.

Kisame was hit directly with AT. Kisame Suiton Justu was made specifically to negate Ninjustu. Gais attacks was taijustu. The shark bomb was merely a wave of water in which AT traveled through it's mouth. Even if we go by logic then air traveling through water increases it's force. It's also to note that Kisame was in the epicenter meaning he took 99% damage from it. It's like a rocket hitting an inch from you left foot and claiming it wasn't a direct hit basically.

Kisame healed the damage taken from the lariat so that's irrelevant.

Naruto's kick had him coughing blood while AT left him visually uninjured. He simply didn't move because Gai was vastly superior to him because his entire arsenal revolves around absorbing chakra.

 Actually even after being bit by AT, he was then directly hit by a 7th gated punch to the gut. He then woke up, muscled through Bjuii restraining Mokuton, casted a Suiton Justu faster then Gai could attack, then summoned sharks. Kisame was in prime fighting condition.


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## Jad (Mar 26, 2014)

Well;

The premise for not killing Kisame was definetely there; Gai not thinking, wow he survived that, like he did in 669 when Madara got up from Evening Elephant. And how Aoba told him before hand we can get some information off of him.
 Hirudora still affected Madara - one way or another, since he did lose control on the Mokuton binding.
 ON PANEL - Tsunade has never healed in an unconscious state, so Gai's blows to the head should at the very least put her in an unconscious state. Anything from the 6th Gate Sasuno breaking blows, to the heat, directly at the head.
 On top of this, a majority, if not all, of Tsunade's injuries were not to the head but to the stomach/chest area. So there is that.
 Lastly, with Sasuno breaking blows (Sasuke rib cage version), he should have the skill (ala Madara vs. Lee kick) and strength (pushing back Juubidara - and feats I have listed) to bisect her in half.


*KUNAI USAGE; REVISITED ONCE AGAIN*​
Last not least. Gai definitely has the tool (weapon) to utilise a Kunai against Tsunade if push comes to shove. And with that, this whole debate should just be ended. Just like the vast amount of threats that show Tobirama, Minato and Itachi beating Tsunade with a Kunai. 

Yes Gai will use a Kunai, Kishimoto has written many major characters using weapons they are not familar with before. It's ridiculous to think Gai won't use a Kunai but rather kill himself in 8 Gates. Ridiculous. Examples;

 Tenten and the Bananfan
 Kakashi and the executioner
 Darui and the Rikudou treasures
 Tsunade and the Tanto knife of Boss Gama
 Shikamaru and the knife to Hidan's neck
 *WOWEE Gai using Samehada against Kisame!!!!*


I've repeated this stuff a million times, people don't want Gai to use a Kunai (that he carries), because it defeats Tsunade quite easily. That's the only reason I think, or believe. People don't want Tsuande to lose to Gai in such a way, because it makes it look like Gai won the fight easily. Gai has the skill to use the weapon [example; throws a Kunai dead center at a target without looking] and speed to decap Tsunade. Literally the only arguments been made are;


 Gai on panel hasn't used one, he won't use one. He RATHER DIE then use a Kunai to win this match. You get that people RATHER DIE then use a Kunai. Literally no character written by Kishimoto is that DUMB
 People say Gai is dumb and won't use a Kunai - classic one right?
 Nothing else..........................

*Conclusion*; Like Lost Self said, if Gai uses 8 Gates on Tsunade (which I don't believe he needs in the first place; but for the sake of). Then Gai eventually dies in vain of knowing he had the tools and skills to actually beat Tsunade WITHOUT 8 Gates. Which is something I just do not believe, how can someone throw away their life knowing they had the opportunity to kill someone and live? No right character in mind would do that.​


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## Necessary Evil (Mar 26, 2014)

8th gated Gai not enough to defeat Tsunade ? K den.


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## LostSelf (Mar 26, 2014)

Necessary Evil said:


> 8th gated Gai not enough to defeat Tsunade ? K den.



Actually, 99% are saying he is much more than enough. Stalemate? Yeah, just like he can stalemate a lot of much more powerful shinobis than her.

Even though 7th gate trolls her regen.


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## Mithos (Mar 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Yes, it does. I am just saying that if Gai wants to kill her, he just needs to get a Katana, and he has the speed and skills to do so with one .
> 
> If somehow they fight and Gai only uses blunt force attacks story wise and he loses, is not because he didn't have the skills to do it, it's because he didn't have the adequate weapon, or didn't bother using it. Not because he is weaker than her .
> 
> Aside from that, an argument can be made of him beating her regen.



And if she wanted, Tsunade could just hide and use Katsuyu as shield to prevent being beheaded and have Katsuyu fight Gai. 

Base Gai can't beat Katsuyu and using Gates against her would just exhaust him faster. 

If you want to argue "what ifs," Tsunade still comes out on top.


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## Super Chief (Mar 26, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> not really.Gai will badly out speed Tsunade even in 7th gate.though Tsunade has good regen feats,but she never took a attack as strong as AT,a attack that can make a island look small.i think 2 AT's will be enough to kill her.



Tsunade has fought alongside and against enemies faster than Gai and kept up just fine. She's no speed demon but she's not slow. Gai is fast but not untouchable by any means. His worst in AT wasn't enough to put down a nerfed Kisame for good. Tsunade isn't going to be nerfed and she's not going to pull her ridiculous punches.


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## LostSelf (Mar 26, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> And if she wanted, Tsunade could just hide and use Katsuyu as shield to prevent being beheaded and have Katsuyu fight Gai.
> 
> Base Gai can't beat Katsuyu and using Gates against her would just exhaust him faster.
> 
> If you want to argue "what ifs," Tsunade still comes out on top.



In a what if scenario when she knows Gai is coming to kill her for example, yeah, she can get inside. But she can die because of lack of oxygen if she stays inside Katsuyu fearing from Gai's arrival.

Even in a battle between them she is gonna need to come out and die, or stay inside and die. Because Katsuyu is not touching Gai.

Therefore, no, she doesn't come on top .


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## Veracity (Mar 26, 2014)

Jad said:


> Well;
> 
> The premise for not killing Kisame was definetely there; Gai not thinking, wow he survived that, like he did in 669 when Madara got up from Evening Elephant. And how Aoba told him before hand we can get some information off of him.
> Hirudora still affected Madara - one way or another, since he did lose control on the Mokuton binding.
> ...



Jad I'm not getting into this argument again. I've countered all your posts more then once actually. Unless you just want me to copy and paste ?


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## Mercurial (Mar 26, 2014)

Lol at Katsuyu, even if a 6th or 7th Gate Gai was let her the time to summon, he can simply stomp it with Asa Kujaku. A snail's body is made of water for 90-95% at least, and the rest are body fluids; Asa Kujaku insta-vaporized away a giant Suiton shark wave, 1000 Suiton sharks, probably bigger than the Katsuyu that Tsunade usually summons. Katsuyu can handle the impact but not the fire.


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## Mithos (Mar 26, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Lol at Katsuyu, even if a 6th or 7th Gate Gai was let her the time to summon, he can simply stomp it with Asa Kujaku. A snail's body is made of water for 90-95% at least, and the rest are body fluids; Asa Kujaku insta-vaporized away a giant Suiton shark wave, 1000 Suiton sharks, probably bigger than the Katsuyu that Tsunade usually summons. Katsuyu can handle the impact but not the fire.



Asakujaku didn't vaporize or incernate Shouten Kisame's body but it's going to kill Katsuyu?


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## Veracity (Mar 26, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Lol at Katsuyu, even if a 6th or 7th Gate Gai was let her the time to summon, he can simply stomp it with Asa Kujaku. A snail's body is made of water for 90-95% at least, and the rest are body fluids; Asa Kujaku insta-vaporized away a giant Suiton shark wave, 1000 Suiton sharks, probably bigger than the Katsuyu that Tsunade usually summons. Katsuyu can handle the impact but not the fire.



1) Katsuyu isn't a snail
2) ordinary slugs can't talk , replenish energy/health , and cannot multiply themselves thousands of times. Katsuyu should not be given our "world" characteristics. Same way the other boss summonings seem to not fall under what real snakes and toads can actually do. Last time I recall, snakes cannot shed their skin in moments to evade fire attacks, and toads cannot spit waves of magical sage oil and fire off waves of water walls and water bullets.
3) Katsuyu has tanked the 6k Kurama cloak( 4k cloak melted oro to pieces) and tanked a direct CST. It is most def not going down against an attack that couldn't even physically melt shouten Kisame after directly hitting him around 100 times.


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## LostSelf (Mar 26, 2014)

We do *not* know if Kisame was going to be melted because he was sent completely covered in fire to his own waterdome, so the fire was extinguished.

So this is not a proof.


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 26, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> Asakujaku didn't vaporize or incernate Shouten Kisame's body but it's going to kill Katsuyu?



yes, the slug will be forced to split as a counter on impact, but the many hits will still overwhelm the many clones & either de-summon/poof them away or literally kill each one of them.
 kuchiyose has stress limits; its all been implied & shown in canon multiple times.


any other outcome implies a no limits fallacy & is based purely in fan-on & unsupported by any feats.
after Manda, any boss summon is trolled against asa kujaku/hirudora.

the slug has no concrete durability feats _precisely cuz_ the 'splitting up' is used as *attack circumvention*, not literal damage soak. Katsyuu cant handle the hyper-rapid, blunt force accrual, _nor _the fire when _already_ split.

U might even think I'm trolling, maybe. 
But no; its just the katsyuu stuff has been perverted/misrepresented for sooo long....


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## Seiji (Mar 26, 2014)

Tbh I don't see Gai using 8 gates against her. But I still think he wins with Hirudora. And lol Katsuyu defense, Tsunade doesn't and won't use her beloved slug as a meatshield. She's not a cruel master unlike Oro or Sauce. Good fucking luck.


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## The Undying (Mar 26, 2014)

Siriυs said:


> Tbh I don't see Gai using 8 gates against her. But I still think he wins with Hirudora. And lol Katsuyu defense, Tsunade doesn't and won't use her beloved slug as a meatshield. She's not a cruel master unlike Oro or Sauce. Good fucking luck.




Tsunade used Katsuyu as a meat shield to protect the whole village from Pain's CST, no? Katsuyu didn't seem phased much, so whether it can even be considered "cruel" is questionable.

If push came to shove, I don't see why she wouldn't do the same against Gai in Gates 1-7.


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## Kai (Mar 26, 2014)

The Undying said:


> Tsunade used Katsuyu as a meat shield to protect the whole village from Pain's CST, no? Katsuyu didn't seem phased much, so whether it can even be considered "cruel" is questionable.
> 
> If push came to shove, I don't see why she wouldn't do the same against Gai in Gates 1-7.


It was stated Tsunade infused Katsuyu with her chakra, the same chakra that was transmitting Sozo Sasiei to the rest of the village.


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## LostSelf (Mar 26, 2014)

^And she didn't use Katsuyu with the intention of protecting the villagers from CST. Luckily, Katsuyu was on the field already before Deva used CST.

Otherwise, Tsunade wouldn't have had time to even summon it before Deva used CST.


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## Grimsley (Mar 26, 2014)

Tsunade wins this easily.


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 26, 2014)

The Undying said:


> Tsunade used Katsuyu as a meat shield to protect the whole village from Pain's CST, no?* Katsuyu didn't seem phased much, *so whether it can even be considered "cruel" is questionable.



Where is the scene when Pein launched _any_ attack at the slug clones?...and the reaction shot?...did I miss it?


*Spoiler*: __


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## joshhookway (Mar 26, 2014)

How does Tsunade survive being kicked in half Lee-Madara style?


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## tkpirate (Mar 26, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Tsunade has fought alongside and aside enemies faster than Gai and kept up just fine. She's no speed demon but she's not slow. Gai is fast but not untouchable by any means. His worst in AT wasn't enough to put down a nerfed Kisame for good. Tsunade isn't going to be nerfed and she's not going to pull her ridiculous punches.



Tsunade never fought anyone who is same or faster than Gai 1 on 1.Kisame didn't get hit directly,though it defeated him.2 direct hits of AT will be enough for Tsunade.


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## tkpirate (Mar 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Kisame was hit directly with AT. Kisame Suiton Justu was made specifically to negate Ninjustu. Gais attacks was taijustu. The shark bomb was merely a wave of water in which AT traveled through it's mouth. Even if we go by logic then air traveling through water increases it's force. It's also to note that Kisame was in the epicenter meaning he took 99% damage from it. It's like a rocket hitting an inch from you left foot and claiming it wasn't a direct hit basically.
> 
> AT works by first biting down on the target then hitting it with air/shock waves.that AT never bite kisame,he only got hit by some of the air/shock wave.also that water shark probably reduced the damage.


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> Likes boss said:
> 
> 
> > Kisame was hit directly with AT. Kisame Suiton Justu was made specifically to negate Ninjustu. Gais attacks was taijustu. The shark bomb was merely a wave of water in which AT traveled through it's mouth. Even if we go by logic then air traveling through water increases it's force. It's also to note that Kisame was in the epicenter meaning he took 99% damage from it. It's like a rocket hitting an inch from you left foot and claiming it wasn't a direct hit basically.
> ...


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## iJutsu (Mar 27, 2014)

Why is this thread is still going? 7th gate Gai punch will knock Tsunade out. Regen isn't going to stop you from passing out from the intense pain. He can do whatever he wants afterwards before killing her permanently and she won't be able to do anything about it.


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## tkpirate (Mar 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> How would we really know the exact mechanics? It's only ever noted down on one opponent. It's only been used 3 times remember that. True the tiger actually biting down on the opponent would cause more damage. But the technique going off within 10 feet of the opponent would still do 95% of the damage. Especially considering the AoE is island level. All of the pressure would be concentrated it's highest around Kisame.
> I already explained to you why a wall of water is fruitless against a giant air current. It's also to note that a wave of water wouldn't do anything against an attack as powerful as AT. It's like placing a wall between you and a spirit bomb. It's not much tbh.



well,if a giant chakra/air tiger bites you,you will be damaged i guess.Kisame never got biten,so only that should tell you that he didn't took the entire attack.you can't say that he took 95% of the damage either,because we don't know how much that biting damages a target.also that water wall/shark (whatever) is made of chakra+water,not only water.so it could have reduced the damage Kisame took.


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## Super Chief (Mar 27, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Why is this thread is still going? 7th gate Gai punch will knock Tsunade out. Regen isn't going to stop you from passing out from the intense pain. He can do whatever he wants afterwards before killing her permanently and she won't be able to do anything about it.



Seventh Gate Gai couldn't knock out Kisame, only immobilise him. Tsunade will shake that off the same way she shook off a Susanoo sword to the gut - which she deliberately allowed to pierce her in the first place to create a diversion.

People are giving way too much credit to Gai and far too little to Tsunade. It is flat out ridiculous to consider Gai wins this with ease. Hell, Eighth Gate Gai might not even last long enough to finish the job considering he's already running out of energy. Tsunade doesn't have Madara's durability but it's not unreasonable to consider she would be able to hold on to dear life just long enough to survive.


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## Mithos (Mar 27, 2014)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> yes, the slug will be forced to split as a counter on impact, but the many hits will still overwhelm the many clones & either de-summon/poof them away or literally kill each one of them.
> kuchiyose has stress limits; its all been implied & shown in canon multiple times.
> 
> 
> ...



Katsuyu survived and shielded ninja from CST. Blunt force damage will not kill her. Hell Katsuyu has shown she can melt herself when Tsunade and Sakura had her spread out to be the alliances' "foot hold". Her body has no bones and no organs so there's nothing Gai can really hurt. 

De-summon Katsuyu? Katsuyu has never been de-summoned by an attack, not even the force of CST. The only time her parts have died was from having all their chakra sucked out from the God Tree. 

Gai can punch Katsuyu's divisions as much as he wants, but he'll just exhaust himself. 

Katsuyu does have concrete durability feats - CST. Rapid blunt force attacks aren't going to do anything to a slug that has no bones or organs, can survive CST, and can melt herself into goo.

And the fire from Asakujaku didn't severely burn Shouten Kisame despite completely engulfing him in flames. If Katsuyu does somehow receive burns, Tsunade can just channel her chakra to her and heal her.  

Gai cannot kill Katsuyu.


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## Mithos (Mar 27, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Why is this thread is still going? 7th gate Gai punch will knock Tsunade out. Regen isn't going to stop you from passing out from the intense pain. He can do whatever he wants afterwards before killing her permanently and she won't be able to do anything about it.



A punch is going to make Tsunade pass out? 

Tsunade stayed conscious with a severed spine. She stayed conscious when she was torn in half. 

Tsunade's shown us that medical ninjutsu can make someone wake up from being unconscious (Sasuke and Kakashi), so even if she did pass out Byakugou would heal her and wake her up. It's automatic, it's not going to stop regenerating her even if she loses consciousness - which she won't anyway.


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## Rocky (Mar 27, 2014)

She actually did lose consciousness when she was bisected. She just regained it later.


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 27, 2014)

*sorry 4 the  rambling; its 4 my own satisfaction(not like i'll change many opinions)*



Matto-sama said:


> Katsuyu survived and shielded ninja from CST.


yes. tsunades SS chakra healed whatever damage the villagers took from the shockwave & kept the slug clones from de-summning as they shielded villagers in the backlash of flying rubble, I agree.



> Blunt force damage will not kill her.


it'll either de-summon her or kill her if she cant properly counter it, yes...




> Hell Katsuyu has shown she can *melt herself *when Tsunade and Sakura had her spread out to be the alliances' "foot hold". Her body has no bones and no organs so there's nothing Gai can really hurt.


well then she isn't helping Tsunade being blasted like a rag doll, correct. 



> De-summon Katsuyu? Katsuyu has never been de-summoned by an attack, not even the force of CST. The only time her parts have died was from having all their chakra sucked out from the God Tree.


U don't get to change in-universe mechanics...unless you're saying tsunade will summon the entirety of the true slug entity...

...of course she can be de-summoned/defeated when  her evasion ability is nullified, overwhelmed & cut away. that's why she has said ability, to avoid being damaged & put away.



> Gai can punch Katsuyu's divisions as much as he wants, but he'll just exhaust himself.


no, slugs''ll go away, back to the forest, even before tsunade falls unconscious & eventually dies. that is, if the slug is used as a shield initially.



> Katsuyu does have concrete durability feats - CST.


katsyuu has no real durability feats, no.

*Spoiler*: __ 



the Pain invasion came & went w/o her getting any - a single, *indirect*, shockwave of impeded wind/gravity  & some severe earthquaking/falling city walls is not remarkable for a boss summon. the gama trio survived far worse - a point blank ST, unimpeded by trying to gouge out a city foundations. Yes...

-It was the villagers in danger from such a briefly loosened, and broad, attack. CST was symbolic, a purposeful display of *collateral* damage

 Instead, we still have a hivemind-like boss, who avoids attacks & never directly shoulders combat situations, yes... 
Katsyuu is no Manda, in terms of durability. more like Gama_trio level, which isn't bad, but...





> And the fire from Asakujaku didn't severely burn Shouten Kisame despite completely engulfing him in flames. If Katsuyu does somehow receive burns, *Tsunade can just channel her chakra to her and heal her. *


No, tsunade will be getting blasted away too

And of course, you're being disingenuous as well: why would Tsunadfe, combating Gai, wastefully renew a summon if its a burden, not helping the fight?


> Gai cannot kill Katsuyu.




*Spoiler*: __ 



No, katsyuu would prolly just poof away. that kind of thing has never been consistent; sometimes the summon reels & bleeds before returning, if at all. As other more/less durable summons have.

but the chakra window/balancing act for kuchiyose will always make them return & its blatantly clear that Gais power, speed & range can stress that mechanic, & very very quickly.

The logical & objective conclusion is not... not that an evasive _- summon - _wont *_revert_ if cornered & beaten, when its never been made to take a beating & shown no such resilience in the 1st place.


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## Rocky (Mar 27, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> Gai cannot kill Katsuyu.




Gai can just...run away from it. 

Kuchiyose apparently operates on a time limit. Eventually, that's going to run out. Gai can power down to Base and just run away from Godslug using that tier 5/5 speed & stamina. It's too slow to catch him if his focus is primarily evasion. 

Tsunade would be hiding inside Godslug, so she's out of the picture. If she emerges, Gai can simply focus his attacks on Tsunade and ignore Godslug.


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## joshhookway (Mar 29, 2014)

Can Tsunade regenerate her skull from being crushed by Gai's dildos?


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2014)

Kai said:


> It was stated Tsunade infused Katsuyu with her chakra, the same chakra that was transmitting Sozo Sasiei to the rest of the village.



The second part of your sentence explains why that isn't pertinent concerning durability. Tsunade specifically instructed Katsuyu to heal the villager's wounds, and in addition to that Katsuyu herself stated that she used all of it up just surrounding everybody fast enough, meaning that it could no longer have had any effect by the time she actually got hit with CST immediately afterwards because it was no longer there anyway.

It isn't like she's never been hit with something hard before, either, like the ground in front of Shizune following a several hundred meter plummet or Manda's constriction which would easily crush most objects.

She works as a meat-shield because she has no bones or organs to break and damage, not just because she can take Tsunade's Chakra; not that it matters either way since Tsunade is present in this thread.


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## SSMG (Mar 29, 2014)

The sweat aura of sixth/ seventh gate would turn that giant slug to salt.

anyways base guy has better speed feats reaction feats better stamina feats similar strength feats. this isnt a close fight at all if we factor in gates.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2014)

If Gai's entire body were a concentration of salt he still wouldn't have enough to melt the slug. It is simply too big.


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## SSMG (Mar 29, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Can Tsunade regenerate her skull from being crushed by Gai's dildos?



Even if she could (which i doubt she can) base guy would just combo her head in with them until she has no chakra left to heal with.


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## SSMG (Mar 29, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> If Gai's entire body were a concentration of salt he still wouldn't have enough to melt the slug. It is simply too big.



Hed put a hole right through it. katuya wouldnt be able to regen from it either. itd kill her or force her to de summon.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2014)

Putting a hole in Katsuyu isn't going to force her to de-summon, and I've no idea why such a thing couldn't be healed.


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## SSMG (Mar 29, 2014)

My mistake in my earlier post. i said guys sweat will cause the wound to turn to salt, whereas i meant the salt in guys sweat will disintegrate katsuyu(or whatever area he touches). we know salt will insantly kill slugs irl. and we have never seen katsuyu regen from a salt based wound. so i wont assume she can. a kick should drill right through her and guy opening seventh gate should put a giant hole in her.


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## Veracity (Mar 29, 2014)

SSMG said:


> My mistake in my earlier post. i said guys sweat will cause the wound to turn to salt, whereas i meant the salt in guys sweat will disintegrate katsuyu(or whatever area he touches). we know salt will insantly kill slugs irl. and we have never seen katsuyu regen from a salt based wound. so i wont assume she can. a kick should drill right through her and guy opening seventh gate should put a giant hole in her.



OMG lol. Your joking.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 2, 2014)

Someone still thinks Tsunade stands a chance?


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## Shodai (Apr 2, 2014)

Can't u see how simple life is...forget titles, numbers, levels and look at how thing works
Gai run at 300km/h, Akatsuki don't
SIMULATION: Gai in akatsuki's base
Akatsuki learder: "HOLLY SHIT WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT GREEN THING MOVING AT 300KM/H"
Itachi confused: "I DON'T KNOW DAMN, MY 3 TOMOE SHARIGAN CAN'T SEE"
Then Sasori summon 100 puppets but it fails...Sasori start cry when Gai in less than 5 seconds destroy all his puppets with a extremely high speed combo...Sasori became history with just one Punch

When Deidara see that scene, shestarts blow the base with bombs without even think
the chaos and the panic take control of all members external image omfg.gif
Itachi scream: "JESUS CRIST WE GONNA DIE"
Itachi starts run as usual, but its useless he got pwned by a kick at 300km/h, now with 70% of his bones completely broken Itachi scream:" JESUS CRIST MY LEGS...I CAN'T MOVE MY LEGS"external image cryinganime.gif
imagine the situation...something moving at 300km/h and u cant do nothing...U GONNA DIE!!!
Hidan crying start prey: "LORD CAN U HEAR, ME SAVE MY ASS I'M GONNA DI..kicked in his head at 300km/h
while that zetsu stand without move trying to pass as a tree
Deidara start to fly out of the base, its useless she is cut in half by one kick
While the only thing u can hear are bones breaking, Kakuzu offer money in trade of his life
Gai don't give a darn and Kakuzu legs and etc are now around the all base
The End


Gai wrecks chuunin level tsunade


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## joshhookway (Apr 2, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Putting a hole in Katsuyu isn't going to force her to de-summon, and I've no idea why such a thing couldn't be healed.



morning peacock evaporates the fluid in Katsuyu


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## Doge (Apr 2, 2014)

As of now 8th gated Gai wins.   Elephant vaporizes Tsunade before she can react and Gai wins as he wouldn't have died yet.


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## Necessary Evil (Apr 2, 2014)

The result will be pretty much this :


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## Pretty Good Satan (Apr 2, 2014)

Midnight Moth Mutilates Mamma Tsunade's Mammaries!


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## Thunder (Apr 2, 2014)

Well, we now know what Hachimon Shimon does for Gai, so things  look pretty grim for Tsunade. Gai will literally beat on her with Night  Elephant until there's nothing left to regenerate from. And if that  doesn't work for some reason . . . Night Moth will make an appearance. Yeah.

So Gai wins. Or it ends in a stalemate if you want to be nitpicky.


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## Mithos (Apr 3, 2014)

Doge said:


> As of now 8th gated Gai wins.   Elephant vaporizes Tsunade before she can react and Gai wins as he wouldn't have died yet.



But he'll still die so it's still a draw 

Whether he dies a minute or 5 minutes later doesn't matter. The fact he has to kill himself to kill her makes it a draw.


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## Jad (Apr 3, 2014)




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## Jad (Apr 3, 2014)

Oh my freaking gosh - my post got deleted for some stinking reason. I will have to retype everything.

*Multiple Hirudoras*

Even though I believe one Hirudora is enough. Gai should also be able to volly multiple Hirudora's. Which I gotta say....to some that may be enough of a convincing scenario.

*Gai is a man of counters*

Kishimoto created Gai as a person who is all about countering. The one example, which should be enough, is him reading the opponents feet to avoid the sharingan genjutsu. If Tsunade was Gai's rival (well, rival enemy, rivals don't kill each other) his counter to Tsunade would be a Kunai. Like Gai created a counter to circumvent genjutsu, he can also create a counter to circumvent regeneration in the form of a Kunai. This is *inverse logic* I am using. Gai is a man that creates counters. So why not against someone like Tsunade? It isn't like Gai hasn't wielded a foreign weapon before. He literally wielded Samehada against Kisame. So I reiterate, why not a Kunai? Gai is about counters - Kishi logic. The same should be for Tsunade.

----------------------​
On top of what I have already stated, I have also made aware that other characters have wielded foreign weapons as well. It isn't a new crazy fangled idea. In addition, Gai is a weapons specialist! His even thrown a Kunai dead center on a target without looking. Doesn't seem like someone who has never wielded a Kunai before.

What mind boggles me is people have this idea that Gai will go through all this trouble rather then just wield a Kunai. A Kunai in his back pocket. A Kunai a *ninja *weilds. One issued to so many fodder ninjas out there. Even Tsunade supporters accept that Gai has the necessary skills to beat Tsunade without going 8 Gates but wielding a Kunai. Yet, I have no idea why they don't believe he will use a Kunai as counter to her a regeneration. Much like how Gai created a counter for Sharingan.

*Gai using Kunai against someone LIKE Tsunade*

Also, this brings me back to another point about *Gai using a Kunai*. Gai has NEVER versed someone like Tsunade - to put it more precise someone with regenerative abilities. So to say Gai won't use a Kunai because it's out of character, technically, it's out of character for Tsunade to fight Gai in the first place to the death. So, on top of all I said, given the chance, it would be more likely that Gai would use a kunai against Tsunade, then not. Knowing she is a regenerating fighter.​


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## joshhookway (Apr 3, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> But he'll still die so it's still a draw
> 
> Whether he dies a minute or 5 minutes later doesn't matter. The fact he has to kill himself to kill her makes it a draw.



So a head severing kick wouldn't kill Tsunade?


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## LostSelf (Apr 3, 2014)

How is this still debated? Gai proved to be multiple tiers above Tsunade by now.


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## Jad (Apr 3, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> How is this still debated? Gai proved to be multiple tiers above Tsunade by now.



True, if Gai does use 8 Gates he scares Tsunade to death. People saying it's a draw because Gai dies 5 minutes later or whatever, are using story-driven logic. Like somehow after the fight the 'story' (whatever it may be) continues. Thing is, when are Gai and Tsunade ever going to fight in 'story'. So why use story driven logic? I understand if it was literally 'we both die at the exact same time'.

*Gai using Kunai against someone LIKE Tsunade*

Also, this brings me back to another point about *Gai using a Kunai*. Gai has NEVER versed someone like Tsunade - to put it more precise someone with regenerative abilities. So to say Gai won't use a Kunai because it's out of character, technically, it's out of character for Tsunade to fight Gai in the first place to the death. So, on top of all I said, given the chance, it would be more likely that Gai would use a kunai against Tsunade, then not. Knowing she is a regenerating fighter.​


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## FlamingRain (Apr 3, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> How is this still debated? Gai proved to be multiple tiers above Tsunade by now.



No, he did not.

Gai is not "above" everybody he can kill with the eight gate.


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## Bonly (Apr 3, 2014)

Jad why bother? Obviously at this point in time those who disagree obviously aren't willing to change their mind as they can't deal with Tsunade losing Gai even after all he's shown so why keep on going anymore.


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## Jad (Apr 3, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Jad why bother? Obviously at this point in time those who disagree obviously aren't willing to change their mind as they can't deal with Tsunade losing Gai even after all he's shown so why keep on going anymore.



To be honest, this was the first time I used "Gai is the type of person to create counters, e.g. sharingan/feet method" argument before. Thought maybe if I coupled that with Gai's already use of a foreign weapon [samehada], accuracy with a  Kunai, and being called a weapons specialist, it might persuade some people into re-thinking their stance on this match-up. Because he has the skills to win the match-up that way without going the extra mile. This was also the first time I used the, "Gai has never fought a regeneration user LIKE Tsunade" argument....Thought I give them a shot.

However, I don't have the fight in me to convince those in the "_Who can survive 8th Gate Gai's punch_" thread, who say Tsunade can survive one attack through regeneration.​


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## LostSelf (Apr 3, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> No, he did not.
> 
> Gai is not "above" everybody he can kill with the eight gate.



Ahm, eight gate is above anybody he can kill. To say he is still on the level of Tsunade is a huge facepalm coming from you.


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## Luftwaffles (Apr 3, 2014)

feel like negging some people.


gai is above tsunade.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 3, 2014)

Jad said:


> People saying it's a draw because Gai dies 5 minutes later or whatever, are using story-driven logic. Like somehow after the fight the 'story' (whatever it may be) continues. Thing is, when are Gai and Tsunade ever going to fight in 'story'. So why use story driven logic?​



Because what we're basically doing is imitating the process of manga battle events how we'd see them pan out, simply in hypothetical "what if" scenarios?



> I understand if it was literally 'we both die at the exact same time'.​



Imo they don't need to both die at the exact same time because Gai's death is guaranteed the moment he activates the final gate.



LostSelf said:


> Ahm, eight gate is above anybody he can kill. To say he is still on the level of Tsunade is a huge facepalm coming from you.



The eight gate is top tier, well above Tsunade (and like every other Hokage). That doesn't mean Gai is, though, especially given that he's sealed his fate as soon as he's ascended to that form.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

I don't know how you define "above" FlamingRain, but Gai with the 8th gate activated nearly as strong as Jubidara. 

That puts him on a different planet than Tsunade in terms of power or strength.


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## Bonly (Apr 3, 2014)

Jad said:


> To be honest, this was the first time I used "Gai is the type of person to create counters, e.g. sharingan/feet method" argument before. Thought maybe if I coupled that with Gai's already use of a foreign weapon [samehada], accuracy with a  Kunai, and being called a weapons specialist, it might persuade some people into re-thinking their stance on this match-up. Because he has the skills to win the match-up that way without going the extra mile. This was also the first time I used the, "Gai has never fought a regeneration user LIKE Tsunade" argument....Thought I give them a shot.
> 
> However, I don't have the fight in me to convince those in the "_Who can survive 8th Gate Gai's punch_" thread, who say Tsunade can survive one attack through regeneration.​



Well I tip my hat to you sir because I don't think I could keep going like you, I would've just stopped by now . May you stay youthful and the luck of the Gai be with you


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## LostSelf (Apr 3, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The eight gate is top tier, well above Tsunade (and like every other Hokage). That doesn't mean Gai is, though, especially given that he's sealed his fate as soon as he's ascended to that form.



But the eight gate is _his_ technique. Even if he dies in the end, is his arsenal. Just like Juubi counts to make Madara the strongest character right now, Eight gates counts to put Gai above.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The eight gate is top tier, well above Tsunade (and like every other Hokage). That doesn't mean Gai is, though, especially given that he's sealed his fate as soon as he's ascended to that form.



The 8th Gate is just a power multiplier. I believe Kakashi in the recent chapters said it was 100x one's power, which is the same as Butterfly Mode if it's true. It's just the fact that Gai is already incredible in the field of Taijutsu without any gates activated that he becomes so strong.

8th Gate Might Dai < BM Choji < 8th Gate Gai, most likely. Not everyone who activates the 8th Gate reaches Gai's level. That wouldn't make any sense...


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## Mercurial (Apr 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The 8th Gate is just a power multiplier. I believe Kakashi in the recent chapters said it was 100x one's power, which is the same as Butterfly Mode if it's true. It's just the fact that Gai is already incredible in the field of Taijutsu without any gates activated that he becomes so strong.
> 
> 8th Gate Might Dai < BM Choji < 8th Gate Gai, most likely. Not everyone who activates the 8th Gate reaches Gai's level. That wouldn't make any sense...



That should be obvious, just think... 3rd Gate genin Lee <<< ... [...<<<...] ... <<< 3rd Gate adult current Gai. It's logical, it's just like you compare part 1 Wave Arc Sasuke and EMS Madara because both have the Sharingan.

Anyway, some people are just delusional, so... they show how delusional they are.

Gai is on another tier than Tsunade, by feats, hype, portrayal, everything you may like. And obviously I'm not counting the 8th Gate, but that isn't like a fairy tale, it's an actual power that Gai can use. A SM + Mokuton + Rinnegan + EMS + Juubi's jinchuriki motherfucking Madara level power.

A worn out base Gai can hold off Obito's Kamui with just reflexes and taijutsu skill. A 7th Gate Gai can pressure Juubidara with his speed and taijutsu, Minato with Hiraishin was blitzed and stomped in a millisecond. Madara has directly compared 8th Gate to fucking Hashirama Senju, and by feats 8th Gate Gai is actually stronger. Gai is the rival of a shinobi of Kakashi's caliber and one of the biggest players in the War Arc.

Katsuyu, even if a 6th or 7th Gate Gai was let her the time to summon, he can simply stomp it with Asa Kujaku. A snail's body is made of water for 90-95% at least, and the rest are body fluids; Asa Kujaku insta-vaporized away a giant Suiton shark wave, 1000 Suiton sharks, probably bigger than the Katsuyu that Tsunade usually summons. Katsuyu can handle the impact but not the fire.

Gai can blitz Tsunade and kill her with a couple of Hiry Tora, or repeated Asa Kujaku. Or just stomp her with a taijutsu combo, breaking her skull's bones or her neck. Or take a kunai and carve her head. The speed, and taijutsu skill gap is just... wide.

LOL at Tsunade, and this is with deep respect for her character. But she is far outclassed.


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## joshhookway (Apr 3, 2014)

Can Gai beat Tsunade without 8 gates though so that it's not a draw?


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2014)

Lol what the hell an I reading ?

Gai is not " tiers" above Tsunade at all lol. 

Especially if entering the 8th gate insures he dies. In the end he simply stalemates Tsunade. So he is tiers above Tsunade but in the end stalemates her ?

I could see him being tiers above Tsunade if he could freely use his red aura but sadly he cannot.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

No, he doesn't stalemate Tsunade. He slaughters Tsunade, but the 8th Gate kills him. It's only a "draw" based on some Battledome stipulation if we're being picky. 

A stalemate, imo, involves two people that are incapable of overcoming each other. That wouldn't be the case with Gai in the 8th Gate.


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> No, he doesn't stalemate Tsunade. He slaughters Tsunade, but the 8th Gate kills him. It's only a "draw" based on some Battledome stipulation if we're being picky.
> 
> A stalemate, imo, involves two people that are incapable of overcoming each other. That wouldn't be the case with Gai in the 8th Gate.



You serious right now? Lol them both dying is not a stalemate ? Lol that's funny.

Gai does not stalemate her due to the battledome rules. Gai stalemates her due to his abilities. It's not my fault he does shortly after having gates. That's his own ability. Don't act like Gai is magically invulnerable to freaking death. So according to you , that solid 5 min after Tsunade is dead and Gai is still standing is a victory despite him dying regardless ? Lol alright.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 3, 2014)

> But the eight gate is his technique. Even if he dies in the end, is his arsenal. Just like Juubi counts to make Madara the strongest character right now, Eight gates counts to put Gai above.





> The 8th Gate is just a power multiplier. I believe Kakashi in the recent chapters said it was 100x one's power, which is the same as Butterfly Mode if it's true. It's just the fact that Gai is already incredible in the field of Taijutsu without any gates activated that he becomes so strong.



The gates aren't power multipliers, they're limit removers. They both lead to a drastic increase in ability but there is a difference.

_Shimon's_ existence is no new development, and it was already known to surpass the power of the Hokages, yet Hokage Hashirama Senju was still regarded as history's strongest shinobi, thus Hashirama is still stronger than those who have opened the final gate in the grand scheme of things.

Relative power isn't defined simply by how tough the strongest person you can kill is, but also by how weak the least formidable person that can defeat you is; it doesn't matter how hard you can hit or how fast you can go at any one point in time.

Gai, overall, has not suddenly leaped tiers because he's using the eight gate.


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## Mercurial (Apr 3, 2014)

Gai stomps her with 6th or 7th Gate already, so 8th Gate doesn't matter here. Gai's 8th Gate can be talked about only if you think of Gai against absolute top tiers.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

Based on my definition of stalemate, I'm serious. Just because both die does not mean both are equal in power. Gai becomes far more powerful than Tsunade, but his injures then kill him. If Tsunade could truly stalemate 8th Gated Gai, they would fight equally until they killed each other or they both collapsed from exhaustion.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The gates aren't power multipliers, they're limit removers. They both lead to a drastic increase in ability but there is a difference.
> 
> It was already known to surpass the power of the Hokages, yet Hokage Hashirama Senju was still regarded as history's strongest shinobi, thus Hashirama is still stronger than those who have opened the final gate in the grand scheme of things.



Kakashi said opening the gates can multiples one's power by 100. That's equivalent to Choji's Butterfly Mode, like I said. Choji isn't stronger than Hashirama, and Might Dai probably wasn't either.

It isn't just the 8th Gate = Jubidara. It's Gai using the 8th Gate that's fighting even with him. Other Hachimon users (or Choji) wouldn't be capable of the same, even if they could use the final gate.


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## SSMG (Apr 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> You serious right now? Lol them both dying is not a stalemate ? Lol that's funny.
> 
> Gai does not stalemate her due to the battledome rules. Gai stalemates her due to his abilities. It's not my fault he does shortly after having gates. That's his own ability. Don't act like Gai is magically invulnerable to freaking death. So according to you , that solid 5 min after Tsunade is dead and Gai is still standing is a victory despite him dying regardless ? Lol alright.



What happens five minites after a fictional vs topic is irrelevent.  As soon as one side of a vs topic loses the topic is over and there is no further effect of anything in the match up because the hypothetical match is over...
Not that it matters since guy has better feats than tsunade in base.


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## LostSelf (Apr 3, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The gates aren't power multipliers, they're limit removers. They both lead to a drastic increase in ability but there is a difference.
> 
> _Shimon's_ existence is no new development, and it was already known to surpass the power of the Hokages, yet Hokage Hashirama Senju was still regarded as history's strongest shinobi, thus Hashirama is still stronger than those who have opened the final gate in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> ...



Then a man that can casually fight with Juubi Jin Madara is in the level of Tsunade just because you don't count his gates as a part of his powers? .

Applying relative power, Gai can kill Tsunade with the utmost ease in the eight gate, but he can also beat Nagato with more difficulty. We also don't know if your theory is right, as we don't know how Kishimoto see portrayal and tiers, therefore i can't stop seeing that relative power defined that way, as assumption, and unbacked.

Aside from that, what Rocky says. Tsunade is not stalemating Gai if she is the one ragdolled all the fight, being put like a Genin against a Super Saiyan with all the embarassment she will suffer. Both die? Sure. Stalemate strictly? No.

Can't believe people are bringing this up already .


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## FlamingRain (Apr 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi said opening the gates can multiples one's power by 100. That's equivalent to Choji's Butterfly Mode, like I said. Choji isn't stronger than Hashirama, and Might Dai probably wasn't either.
> 
> It isn't just the 8th Gate = Jubidara. It's Gai using the 8th Gate that's fighting even with him. Other Hachimon users (or Choji) wouldn't be capable of the same, even if they could use the final gate.



That equivocation fails as those are hyperbolic statements easily disproved by Chōji's performances upon entering Butterfly Mode contrasted with his performances outside of them in both Part 1 and 2. There is nowhere near a hundred fold disparity in any facet of power.

But that does little to disprove the point I'm putting forward.

The Hachimon's hype wouldn't be there if others before Gai hadn't already awakened power that eclipsed Hashirama- it could not be known to do what has never happened- and yet Hashirama was the one still regarded as history's strongest.

Previous testimonials, Madara suggesting that red steam can face him and then being overjoyed specifically about being able to fight against the gate, as well as the apparent familiarity with the techniques afforded by said gate _do_ point toward it simply being 8th gate ~ Jubidara, not Gai in particular being its practitioner.

I don't agree with the sudden elevation of Gai's power in general upon the actual use of the sacrificial eight gate that we knew he had, because we already knew it would eclipse his otherwise clear-cut superiors.



LostSelf said:


> Then a man that can casually fight with Juubi Jin Madara is in the level of Tsunade just because you don't count his gates as a part of his powers? .



I believe you've misinterpreted my point.



> We also don't know if your theory is right, as we don't know how Kishimoto see portrayal and tiers, therefore i can't stop seeing that relative power defined that way, as assumption, and unbacked.



Absolute certainty isn't necessarily required for provisional, inductive judgements.



> Aside from that, what Rocky says. Tsunade is not stalemating Gai if she is the one ragdolled all the fight, being put like a Genin against a Super Saiyan with all the embarassment she will suffer. Both die? Sure. Stalemate strictly? No.



Gai wouldn't be able to defeat Tsunade with anything less than his suicidal gate, thus Gai would be forced into using his final gate that guarantees his own demise in order to kill her- which is a draw.

Tsunade being ragdolled isn't relevant.



> Can't believe people are bringing this up already .



Bringing what up already?


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2014)

SSMG said:


> What happens five minites after a fictional vs topic is irrelevent.  As soon as one side of a vs topic loses the topic is over and there is no further effect of anything in the match up because the hypothetical match is over...
> Not that it matters since guy has better feats than tsunade in base.



It's not irrelevant if that's the exact extent of his red aura ability lol. The reason he choses not to use such is because it kills him. To completely discard the drawbacks of said technique purely based on the fact that you're a Gai wanker isn't even logical.  Ur basically saying that Gai beats everyone in the manga bar Juubi him simply because he will be whopping their ass for a split second  before he bends over and parishes. 

And lol @ base Gai being superior to Tsunade.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

If we take what Choji said as wrong, then I suppose you've countered my points FlamingRain, but LostSelf's still have me curious. 

Let's just be clear; there is a disparity in power between the different ninja who use Hachimon. For example, Gated Gai is more powerful than Gated Lee in every gate, so the same should stand true for the 8th. Hell, Gai was arguably more powerful in Base than Gated Lee (maybe not all 5) was back in the exams, or at least comparable. Gaara certainly wouldn't have shrugged off Gai's 5-Gated assaults. 

But most importantly, why do you not view the 8th Gate as part of one's overall power? Not everyone can activate it, so those who have _trained_ and achieved the ability to do so deserve credit. Hashirama was regarded as a god amongst Shinobi, but those who open the 8th Gate were considered more powerful than that. So yes, Gai was stronger than Hashirama, because he can open the 8th Gate. Losing his life has nothing to do with the power he can achieve.


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## LostSelf (Apr 3, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I believe you've misinterpreted my point.



I don't think we have much to understand about this point.

Gai has gates, gates puts him in the league of the strongest shinobis in NV. Gai is above Tsunade. If we count how many people Tsunade can kill and how many people Gai can kill then we have an astronimical difference. And even then, 7th gated Gai can defeat more enemies than Tsunade can, including Kage level opponents. Tsunade just happens to be a bad matchup.

THis also counters what you said below.



> Absolute certainty isn't necessarily required for provisional, inductive judgements.



Pretty wording when Kishimoto might be more simple and say that the stronger you are, the higher in tier you'll be is not gonna convince me anymore .




> Gai wouldn't be able to defeat Tsunade with anything less than his suicidal gate, thus Gai would be forced into using his final gate that guarantees his own demise in order to kill her- which is a draw.



I went through this a lot. Gai can kill her, and he can outspeed her regeneration, he can deal damage 10 times faster than Byakugo, he can defeat her.

Or go buy a Katana and chop her head off, but you get the point.



> Tsunade being ragdolled isn't relevant.



Then if Tyson kicks my ass in a fight, and i manbomb myself, i am equal to Tyson? 



> Bringing what up already?



A technical "draw".

Another thing about gates being different with different persons is Gai and his father. His father could not accomplish much against the 7 swordsmen of the mist, while Gai is dancing Tango with Juudara. Not everybody gets Gai's power, or speed. Give Tsunade gates and she won't be as fast, she won't be as reflexive, she won't have insane stricking speed or the same skills as Gai. She will just have more strenght than him.


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## SSMG (Apr 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> It's not irrelevant if that's the exact extent of his red aura ability lol. The reason he choses not to use such is because it kills him. To completely discard the drawbacks of said technique purely based on the fact that you're a Gai wanker isn't even logical.  Ur basically saying that Gai beats everyone in the manga bar Juubi him simply because he will be whopping their ass for a split second  before he bends over and parishes.
> 
> And lol @ base Gai being superior to Tsunade.



Its irrelelevent because the fictonial versus topic is already over. Guy at the point of beating his opponent has effectively "won" that topic. therefore once he wins he wont feel the effects of gates because the topic is over thus the gates cannot affect him afterwards. 
And then this isnt even considering the fact that as soon as the topic is over these fictional characters would get healed up in order to be apart of the next fictional topic theyll be pitted in.

And going by feats.. he is.


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## Dr. White (Apr 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Chidori Kusunagi vs kunai.
> 
> 
> Chidori kusunagi vs Ei's neck.
> ...



All the examples you used had Ei in his Raiton cloak which not only enhances durability(sorta like Susano) but counters most raiton attacks(and as Sandaime shown isn't phased too bad by Fuuton attacks.). It doesn't really count, chidori itself pierced Ei's breast with the cloack, and Ei himself used simple lightning flow to chop his own arm off while in base. Tsunade has been shown vulnerable to cutting, piercing, and too much damage output(ala Madara) Gai with a Kunai in Gates 5 + poses a serious threat to her, not only that but 6, and 7th Gate Gai should be able to collapse her skull, brain, spine, etc. Morning Peacock, and Afternoon tiger add the cherry on top.

Kunai is never going to win vs Raiton flow simply based on the material at hand. If Gai came slashing at a defending chidro Katana, he would most likely break his Kunai but send Sasuke flying back. Tsunade's skin, and bones are not as durable as Susano. At best she is Kimmimaro level(no proof of this whatsoever) and Susano was able to slash through those easily while sage enhanced. Like I said she has feats of being cut, feats of being beaten up(madara, Hanzo, etc), and chakra scalpel was posing a serious threat to her insides(before Kabuto perfected it like vs Yammato.) .

the yamato example doesn't cut it. Tsunade may carry his genes but she is 2 generations apart from him with others gnes mixed in so it's slightly diluted(even though his genes are more dominant). Yamato on the other hand is straight up created from his original genes. So he if anybody would have had more link to his traits than most. Chidori Katana pierced his skin as well as his clothes like butter, surely you don't believe the same wouldn't happen to Tsunade? In base she is not tanking a well placed, and sped up kunai.


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## Jad (Apr 4, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Gai with a Kunai in Gates 5 + poses a serious threat to her,



Thank you for seeing the possibility and not just blaming his inability to weild a Kunai because his dumb......

Like I have said, Gai is all about 'countering' a person. He did it with Kakashi when he wanted to get around Sharingan genjutsu? Why not also for Tsuande if all his blunt force attacks (as stated by Tsunade supporters) won't do anything because of her regeneration? Literally, back pocket, grab a Kunai - BAM. Doesn't need to exert much more effort then that. He has the skills, speed whatever.. Taijutsu.. He wielded Samehada for goodness sakes. Kunai is not going to burn his hand like a vampire holding a crucifix....



> not only that but 6, and 7th Gate Gai should be able to collapse her skull, brain, spine, etc. Morning Peacock, and Afternoon tiger add the cherry on top.



And that. As I have shown, 6th Gate punch is almost similar to the same destruction cause by Ei. Trying to undermine it because the Shinobi Gai killed with Morning Peacock showed no visible injuries is silly. First, all the damage is probably underneath that Akatsuki cloak.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Why do you not view the 8th Gate as part of one's overall power?



I _*do*_ consider it a part of one's overall power (and have considered it such well before we actually saw it on-panel), it's just that it isn't the only thing I consider part of one's overall power. I make sure to consider and weigh every factor I deem relevant, which encompasses survivability of self. Like I stated previously, strength isn't measured solely by how tough the strongest person you can kill is, but also by how weak the least formidable person that can in turn defeat you is.

There are things I'd like to call "general" level and "possible" level, and I think it's important to keep them distinguished. General level would be the power someone could be expected display upon a random encounter situation within the manga.

Yeah, Gai could _possibly_ whip out the final gate and kill just about anyone in the verse with its sheer force at the guaranteed cost of his own life, but that scenario would only occur if the world itself is at stake and there is already seemingly no other option, which would _generally_ not be the case. He is (justifiably) exceedingly apprehensive about giving up everything, and thus it is highly unlikely that Gai thinks to resort to the gate before it is simply too late and the sacrificial power never even becomes a factor against many opponents anyway because he missed his chance to use it. It's not that dissimilar to how Kakashi could theoretically blink even Hashirama out of the dimension with _Kamui_ immediately after match-start and before anything problematic emerges, but you just _*know*_ that's not how the battle is going to pan out and I _*heavily*_ doubt that even those with knowledge on the technique's potential lethality in-verse are going to consider Kakashi stronger than Hashirama.

So I'll say it again- the _Shimon_ is not a new development. All the people Gai could have possibly  opened up the eight gate to kill now he could have possibly drawn with before, because he already had it. That didn't stop people from being more dangerous than he was in general, because merely having _access_ to that sheer force is not enough. There are simply a number of people who would likely kill or at least subdue Gai before the final gate ever came into play, and that is what keeps him beneath his already established superiors in the general sense in my estimates.

It's _kind of_ similar, though not identical, to my stance on the Sannin's overall equality despite also believing that Jiraiya's Sage Mode moveset is generally more dangerous than either of his teammate's, if you recall our conversation about that (it was a while ago).

But that's just how _I_ go about trying to judge strength.



LostSelf said:


> 7th gated Gai can defeat more enemies than Tsunade can, including Kage level opponents. Tsunade just happens to be a bad matchup.



I disagree. I can think of quite a few opponents Tsunade should win against in my opinion that Gai would most likely lose out to (Orochimaru, Danzō, the Second Mizukage, 3rd and 4th Raikages, etc.). On the other hand I can hardly think of anybody that Gai should win the majority against that Tsunade wouldn't as well.

But those are all worthy of their own threads.....



> Pretty wording when Kishimoto might be more simple and say that the stronger you are, the higher in tier you'll be is not gonna convince me anymore .



Kishimoto saying that wouldn't contradict anything _I've_ said, though, so...



> I went through this a lot. Gai can kill her, and he can outspeed her regeneration, he can deal damage 10 times faster than Byakugo, he can defeat her.



You went through it a lot where? In this thread?

But forget all that.

If Gai is using the final gate it will be only because he has no choice in the matter, so if we're discussing what to call a match where Gai dies as a result of using the final gate (_and we are_) it will be because the situation _forced it_- and thus, it would be a draw.



> Or go buy a Katana and chop her head off, but you get the point.



It'd just grow back.

Going to the store results in Tsunade winning by ring-out, though. 



> Then if Tyson kicks my ass in a fight, and i manbomb myself, i am equal to Tyson?



What is a manbomb?

I don't estimate overall strength based just on the result of singular battle match-ups nor do I subscribe to the strongest always wins notion, so I'm going to say no and I'm also going to say that I don't see what that example has to do with….anything.


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## Jad (Apr 4, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> It'd just grow back.



So you actually believe this?



> Going to the store results in Tsunade winning by ring-out, though.



He has a Kunai. it's enough. Plus judging by your response, I guess it's safe to say you wouldn't argue against Gai changing his method of attack for an opponent like Tsunade, had he have the opportunity to fight someone like her in the manga?


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## Rocky (Apr 4, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Yeah, Gai could _possibly_ whip out the final gate and kill just about anyone in the verse with its sheer force at the guaranteed cost of his own life, but that scenario would only occur if the world itself is at stake and there is already seemingly no other option, which would _generally_ not be the case. He is (justifiably) exceedingly apprehensive about giving up everything, and thus it is *highly unlikely that Gai thinks to resort to the gate before it is simply too late* and the sacrificial power never even becomes a factor against many opponents anyway because he missed his chance to use it.



Intriguing. I understand (and agree) with your separation of general level & potential or possible level. I makes me think of DBZ. Tell me if this analogy makes sense: 

Had Cell been serious and not so excessively arrogant, he certainly would have been capable of killing Gohan before the "child" ascended to Super Saiyan 2 in an extreme fit of rage. Under normal circumstances, Gohan cannot use that form (similar to Gai's 8th Gate, only he would _choose_ not to because of its extreme consequences), but in a specific situation, Gohan can become far more powerful than his previous superiors (like Cell or even Goku). _*But*_, they remain his "superiors" as he would fall to them under less dire circumstances than he was faced with against Cell.

However, Gai _can_ activate the 8th Gate whenever he wants, that's just fact. Here's my main problem with this. Many times, people claim that Gai would lose to a particular opponent because they would outlast his gates. Uchiha, Tsunade, Sandaime Raikage, and others of similar defensive capabilities were all considered "superior" to Gai because he couldn't actually kill them before he tired. I don't think it's....fair to say that Gai would get "outlasted" and lose to his opponent before he attempts the 8th Gate. When his attacks failed against Madara, and he was in a hopeless situation against the 5 Biju, he had no issues with using it then. That's because if he didn't, _he was going to die anyway._

Now, I understand that when facing someone like SM Biju Mode Naruto or Sage Hashirama, Gai might outright get killed before he has the chance to attempt the 8th Gate. So you could say that those true tip-top-tiers remain superior to him under "IC" mindsets (of course other battle stipulations would be important as well). When speaking of characters that only won by attrition though, it's different, imo. I firmly believe he has now surpassed them, as we know know exactly how powerful the 8th Gate is, and have proof that the Part 1 hype is actually valid. 

Using the 8th Gate to slaughter his opponent and fall _that_ way is preferable to holding the final gate back just to run out of stamina and die anyway. This is a Tsunade thread, and personally, I don't believe Tsunade can kill Gai before he realizes he cannot kill her (though that's debatable). He then has two options:

1.) Pound away in the 7th Gate to no avail, run out of energy, and get smashed in a vulnerable state.

-or-

2.) Activate the Gate of Death, obliterate Tsunade, and then succumb to the final gate having defeated his opponent. 

I would pick the second one, and honestly, I think everyone would.


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## Veracity (Apr 4, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Its irrelelevent because the fictonial versus topic is already over. Guy at the point of beating his opponent has effectively "won" that topic. therefore once he wins he wont feel the effects of gates because the topic is over thus the gates cannot affect him afterwards.
> And then this isnt even considering the fact that as soon as the topic is over these fictional characters would get healed up in order to be apart of the next fictional topic theyll be pitted in.
> 
> And going by feats.. he is.



It's not irrelevant especially when it applies to ones character abilities. The BD is specific into taking character abilities into consideration. You're basically giving Gai no cap at all . You're basically saying he can beat damn near everyone in the manga . You fail to take into conservation the drawbacks of the red aura( which is included in the BD) literally giving Gai a perfect transformation basically lol. That doesn't even make sense. 

The 8th gate in itself is an incredible drawback. In order to maintain power surpassing the Gokage, he must give up his life. That IS THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE TECHNIQUE. Saying that Gai defeats an opponent just before he dies and actually validating that as a feat is ludicrous, and you know it lol.

But if you truly believe that Gais 8th gate transformation should have nigh zero drawbacks then that's on you.


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## SSMG (Apr 4, 2014)

I know he dies after.. thats not.my point at all. 

what im saying is ypu dont know what happens to a character after a hypithectial fictional versus topic. for all we know after every versus topic the combants may be healed by a fictional healer restored with fictional dragonballs or maybe they die after the fictipnal versus topic. i mean speculating about what cones after the topic is pointless ro the actual topic at hand.Because if guy dies five seconds or twenty years after defeating his opponent is still the same outcome in the topic at hand.
also guy has been shown he can use te eighth gate techniques multplie times and not drop dead instantly like youre implying. So as far as this topic is concerned. guy would use his inital EE barrage which would kill tsunade and guy would not instantly die(seeing as he kicked madaras ass after his inital barrage)


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## RBL (Apr 4, 2014)

gai is not using eight gates to defeat tsunade...

six/seven gates are more than enough.

tsunade is overrated as a warrior in 1vs1.


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## U mad bro (Apr 5, 2014)

Tsunade scrambles his brain signals and calls it a day. That is point number one. He would never be able to recover if she lands that attack on him. Point number two anything he throws at Tsunami she can endure and heal from. Regardless of his 5 sec power up. Edo Madara attacks are still stronger than Gai 8th gate. The only reason he is effective because of the built in weakness of Madara current form. Taijutsu and senjutsu being able to penetrate his defense.


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## SSMG (Apr 5, 2014)

Base guy has reactipns that shit on tsunades striking speed.. he isnt getting touched by her. and sure tsuande could heal his boulder shatering base strikes but for how long? weve seen she has a limit on how much she can heal seeing as shes ran out of chakra from healing herself atleast once this war arc.

And name me one edo madara attack that guy couldnt not counter that tsunade could.


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## Doge (Apr 5, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> But he'll still die so it's still a draw
> 
> Whether he dies a minute or 5 minutes later doesn't matter. The fact he has to kill himself to kill her makes it a draw.



Regardless he's won.  Tsunade is dead and he is alive.  

If not, why not accuse anyone of dying following the death of not actually winning?  Die of old age?  You still didn't win.  Close fight and you succumb to injury?  You didn't actually win despite still standing.


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## U mad bro (Apr 5, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Base guy has reactipns that shit on tsunades striking speed.. he isnt getting touched by her. and sure tsuande could heal his boulder shatering base strikes but for how long? weve seen she has a limit on how much she can heal seeing as shes ran out of chakra from healing herself atleast once this war arc.
> 
> And name me one edo madara attack that guy couldnt not counter that tsunade could.


Lol wrong her best well known feat is blitzing edo Madara. How in the hell does that suggest he has reaction speed fast enough
to shit on her. In fact edo Madara never blitzed any of the Kages  He overwhelmed the shit out of them with his full power.  A got tagged with genjutsu like once.

Gai was all but raped by Madara wood style  when he let off that afternoon tiger against  Madara. He was getting overwhelmed by Madara attacks.  This includes the fact he was  activating gates off and on.

As for Tsunade healing. She wasn't just healing herself during the war arc. She was healing the other Kages constantly while maintaining her own jutsu. Her healing herself would outlast  anything Gai can do in gates.

Look at facts. She has a regen to the point she can live with her body smashed in half. Wood style>>>>> 8th gate by the way. Not only that she could still summon in that condition.  Katsuya>>>> 8th gate by the way. Gail abilities are all temporary and at intervals. Which has left him exhausted at usage. He has a quick recovery rate which is why you didn't see  that fact during the war.


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## ueharakk (Apr 5, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Base guy has reactipns that shit on tsunades striking speed.. he isnt getting touched by her. and sure tsuande could heal his boulder shatering base strikes but for how long? weve seen she has a limit on how much she can heal seeing as shes ran out of chakra from healing herself atleast once this war arc.


*considering this attack* was *healed pretty much instantly*, i'd say she can take gai's boulder shattering base strikes for hours.



SSMG said:


> And name me one edo madara attack that guy couldnt not counter that tsunade could.


*this one probably*.

the thing is, though, *how in the world would Gai survive fighting 5 V3 susanoos for hours?  *  He'd get killed if he stays in base.  he'd need to use the gates in order to stay alive, and the only way he'd actually defeat one of the susanoos is with a direct shot of AT.  There's no way Gai would survive that long fighting 5 V3s, he'd either have to defeat them quick with the 7th gate, or he gets pounded and shanked eventually.


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## iJutsu (Apr 5, 2014)

This regeneration crap is retarded. Even with enhanced regen, she will still need to reposition her bones to heal properly. She's not gonna be doing that if all her bones are shattered. It would be easy to crush her brain as she limps along trying to do that. Her regen isn't magic.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 5, 2014)

Reposition her bones? Why would she need to do that if they're all _shattered_? She will simply create new bones or recreate the destroyed bone parts. 

Granted eight gated Gai would kill Tsunade pretty quickly with his constant onslaught of OP punches, but her regeneration still has its use.

Though I still don't think Gai would actually get round to using the eighth gate.​​


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## Admiral Akanezumi (Apr 5, 2014)

U mad bro said:


> Edo Madara attacks are still stronger than Gai 8th gate.



How? Greater area of effect maybe but stronger? Nah.



U mad bro said:


> The only reason he is effective because of the built in weakness of Madara current form. Taijutsu and senjutsu being able to penetrate his defense.



Lul whut? There is no built-in weakness to Juubijin Madara. Taijutsu and Senjutsu are the only things he is _not completely immune_ to. He still has insane durabiliy and speed, more so than Juubijin Obito who shat on most of his opponents.

Tsunades only hope here are her summons, which might stall Gai long enough for him to exhaus  himself.


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## tanman (Apr 5, 2014)

It's pretty obvious at this point that Gai wouldn't need his 8th gate to kill her.

I hate to say I told you so, but...wait...no I don't hate to say that.
I told you so!


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## SSMG (Apr 5, 2014)

U mad bro said:


> Lol wrong her best well known feat is blitzing edo Madara. How in the hell does that suggest he has reaction speed fast enough
> to shit on her. In fact edo Madara never blitzed any of the Kages  He overwhelmed the shit out of them with his full power.  A got tagged with genjutsu like once.
> 
> Gai was all but raped by Madara wood style  when he let off that afternoon tiger against  Madara. He was getting overwhelmed by Madara attacks.  This includes the fact he was  activating gates off and on.
> ...




Edo Madara stood there and reacted to all her attacks. he had an internalthought process on how slow tsunade was actually. guy on the other hand reacted to madaras swordstrike that not even kcm naruto could react to. hes also reacted and countered obitos phasing by himself sonething naruto couldnt do without help. all these are base guy btw.

umm what? tsunade got pwned by wood release and guy countered a more advabced wood release technique while he was in base.

okay so tsunade would have a few extra minutes of getting beaten up by guys numchuku.

and nice "facts" even though we know at least one of those has already been shown to be false. just because you label something as a fact.. doesnt make it a fact.


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## SSMG (Apr 5, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> *considering this attack* was *healed pretty much instantly*, i'd say she can take gai's boulder shattering base strikes for hours.
> 
> 
> *this one probably*.
> ...



One strike from guys numchuku should do more internal damage than that. One hit would break almost every bone in her body and rupture(sp?) her internal organs.  She has never healed from anything like that.
And guys already been shown reacting to those swords....

 and about the susannos one AT would take all five of em out. at once.


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## ueharakk (Apr 5, 2014)

SSMG said:


> One strike from guys numchuku should do more internal damage than that. One hit would break almost every bone in her body and rupture(sp?) her internal organs.  She has never healed from anything like that.
> And guys already been shown reacting to those swords....


.....and what is any of those conclusions based on?  Is it based on Tsunade taking a hit that's far stronger than whatever gai can do to her in base, and getting up like it was nothing?



SSMG said:


> and about the susannos one AT would take all five of em out. at once.


Based on.... AT having to bite madara's half-V3 susanoo in order to (presumably) destroy the susanoo without defeating madara offpanel?


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## SSMG (Apr 5, 2014)

Its based off guys nunchuku strength feat in chapter 596 page 9and 10. It completely shattered an in air boulder which if used against a human it would shatter most of the bones in the human body.

And considering that all the susanno were standing around in groups of five yeah. Itd grab one of them the blow up the other four with the explosion... not like it matters since tsunade did not defeat her five of the susannos.


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## ueharakk (Apr 5, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Its based off guys nunchuku strength feat in chapter 596 page 9and 10. It completely shattered an in air boulder which if used against a human it would shatter most of the bones in the human body.


And you don't find anything wrong with the idea of equating the durability of ninjas in the NV to normal humans in the real world?  Let alone Tsunade, who on panel took an attack more powerful than what you've just described and just walks out of it with no injuries.




SSMG said:


> And considering that all the susanno were standing around in groups of five yeah. Itd grab one of them the blow up the other four with the explosion... not like it matters since tsunade did not defeat her five of the susannos.


Nope, it's not a matter of 'can Gai catch all 5 in the explosion'.  

It's a matter of "can AT actually destroy a higher level susanoo with an indirect hit from AT despite the manga not even setting in stone AT's ability to destroy a weaker susanoo with a direct blast"?

Not only that, but it does matter since if Gai doesn't kill his susanoos, he's going to die fighting the susanoos before tsunade would have in the same situation.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 6, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Its based off guys nunchuku strength feat in chapter 596 page 9and 10. It completely shattered an in air boulder which if used against a human it would shatter most of the bones in the human body.



Tsunade is not being beaten by a fucking nunchuku 

She was hit by a Yasaka Magatama - which inflicted little more than a cut. It then forcefully threw her into a large boulder which _exploded as she crashed into it_. Tsunade sustained minor injuries. 

She survived being teleported inside a lightning bolt, something which should have torn her body into shreds, effectively killing her. Instead it inflicts injuries which Tsunade deems to be _insignificant_.

She also gets _smacked_ around by a giant Susano'o arm and sent hurdling into the ground, as well as hit by some of the _collateral damage_ of Perfect Susano'o's sword slash. She she shows no signs of cuts, lacerations or bruising that was any more significant than that which she had already received afterwards (none of the Kage do). [1]

Evidently, her durability is _ace_.

What discredits your argument even further, though, is that her resilience is even better than her durability, so even if Gai did manage to break her bones or shatter her rib cage, she can still run around throwing strikes merrily, and simply regenerate the damage later.​​


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## U mad bro (Apr 6, 2014)

Rob the Zombie said:


> How? Greater area of effect maybe but stronger? Nah.


So you are saying Gai evening elephant is as strong as perfect Susanoo strikes and his wood style. His wood style restrained Naruto, Bee ,and Gai himself. The fact you think that is the reason why I find Gai currently super masturbated.


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## Jad (Apr 6, 2014)

So, Gai is beating on Tsunade, and for some reason, she keeps on healing. So he is like "Ok, instead of wasting my time and energy any further. Let's try a different tactic, see if it works. If it doesn't, I will go 8 Gates." [Note: I believe his 6th Gate Sasuno busting punches would kill Tsunade coupled with the intense heat]​
---------

So Gai does this:



Instead wielding this:



Tsunade becomes this:



Gai wins 

----

*Gai is a man of counters*

Kishimoto created Gai as a person who is all about countering. The one example, which should be enough, is him reading the opponents feet to avoid the sharingan genjutsu. If Tsunade was Gai's rival (well, rival enemy, rivals don't kill each other) his counter to Tsunade would be a Kunai. Like Gai created a counter to circumvent genjutsu, he can also create a counter to circumvent regeneration in the form of a Kunai. This is *inverse logic* I am using. Gai is a man that creates counters. So why not against someone like Tsunade? It isn't like Gai hasn't wielded a foreign weapon before. He literally wielded Samehada against Kisame. So I reiterate, why not a Kunai? Gai is about counters - Kishi logic. The same should be for Tsunade.​


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2014)

Jad said:


> So, Gai is beating on Tsunade, and for some reason, she keeps on healing. So he is like "Ok, instead of wasting my time and energy any further. Let's try a different tactic, see if it works. If it doesn't, I will go 8 Gates."* [Note: I believe his 6th Gate Sasuno busting punches would kill Tsunade coupled with the intense heat]*​


When did Gai throw susanoo busting punches in the 6th gate?


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## Jad (Apr 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> When did Gai throw susanoo busting punches in the 6th gate?



I was just comparing the strength between Ei and Gai. Let me show you scans:



> Also Morning Peacock has been called a killing Taijutsu always.
> 
> 
> Databook explanation (do I really need to reference/quote it?)
> ...


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 6, 2014)

The double standards in this thread are ridiculous.

People are giving feats to Gai that, yes, he is very capable of performing, but that are totally OOC for him to use.

Gai never uses kunai or bladed weapons in his arsenal, _ever_. In addition, have people forgotten the _one and only condition_ that Gai actually activates the eighth gate on? 

Now, I could agree that if Gai exhausts his moveset and uses just about everything he can do, and is still alive and well enough to keep going (which I am sceptical of in the first place), he might start trying to use those kind of OOC tactics, it only makes sense (though I would still question if he would use the eighth gate or not).

So why then, is Tsunade being randomly limited to what she has shown on-panel? Why is she incapable of using tactics that are not usually IC for her to use? When Tsunade's hits are failing to land and she's continually sustaining damage, why is she incapable of turning to alternative combat methods?

Katsuyu's divisions could use Daibunretsu to split up into thousands upon thousands of smaller divisions that can all attack in tandem with Tsunade. They can spit acid, or Tsunade can channel harmful medical chakra through them to injure Gai on contact. Divisions can also meld themselves onto or around Gai to distract or immobilise him temporarily. Katsuyu can even melt herself all over Gai to submerge him in a fuck ton of slime, and while he's busy trying to bust himself out of it, smaller divisions can emerge from the goo and spew acid at him. The divisions are also impossible to kill for someone who uses nothing but blunt force trauma.

Tsunade's potential combination attacks with Katsuyu are endless, and I have no idea why they are readily ignored when Gai's OOC attacks are just about the _only_ things being considered.​​


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## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2014)

Jad said:


> I was just comparing the strength between Ei and Gai. Let me show you scans:



cmon man, even if I grant all four of those points, that still doesn't bring us to the conclusion that Gai has susanoo-busting punches in the 6th gate.  Morning peacock isn't just a single punch, it consists of tons of punches.  Ei's V1 elbow against juugo isn't a susanoo-busting attack, his V2 karate chop right to sasuke's neck wasn't even a lethal blow.

Also, *I don't think anyone considers this a susanoo busting attack* yet it still completely outclasses Ei and Gai's afterwards destruction.  And that's despite the fact that rasengans > punches that cause a similar AoE.

Kisame stating it destroys the target with flaming punches while shouten kisame's body remains completely intact after the barrage means he isn't using 'destroy' in the literal sense, or if he is using it in the literal sense, he's not using it to refer to what happened to him, he's using it in the context of the flaming punches vs the water sharks that Gai had just destroyed.

Finally, databook description of the technique means jack squat if the manga directly falsifies it.


----------



## Jad (Apr 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> cmon man, even if I grant all four of those points, that still doesn't bring us to the conclusion that Gai has susanoo-busting punches in the 6th gate.  Morning peacock isn't just a single punch, it consists of tons of punches.  Ei's V1 elbow against juugo isn't a susanoo-busting attack, his V2 karate chop right to sasuke's neck wasn't even a lethal blow.
> 
> The difference is, Ei uses his speed to couple his attack on Juugo. Ei only stands and throws a heavy Karate chop at Sasuke. Plus that was Gai's last attack that made the Shouten fall on the ground. I don't see how punching someone really fast - in the space of as second - speeds up how fast someone falls on the ground.
> 
> ...


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 6, 2014)

Jad said:


> The difference is, Ei uses his speed to couple his attack on Juugo. Ei only stands and throws a heavy Karate chop at Sasuke. Plus that was Gai's last attack that made the Shouten fall on the ground. I don't see how punching someone really fast - in the space of as second - speeds up how fast someone falls on the ground.


It's true that Ei would have more power in his chop with momentum rather than not, so lets grant that point.  Now, does it follow that in V1 with momentum, he would have gotten through susanoo with an elbow?  I don't think so.

It doesn't matter how many hits you land on someone 'in the space of a second', the kinetic energy of all of those punches will be transfered to that body, and thus the momentum the body has will increase with each of those punches.  And from the manga, i saw no indication that it was the last attack that caused kisame's body to descend at such a speed.




Jad said:


> That should destroyed Sasuke's Rib Cage. Sasuke's Sasuno Rib Cage isn't exactly the best one. But it's better then Tsunade's bones.


I don't think it would destroy ribcage susanoo, not by feats.  Also, *this* should be at least comparable to Ei's elbow considering *distance *and destruction upon landing, yet tsunade is perfectly fine after taking that hit.




Jad said:


> That was just me further providing evidence that Kishimoto considered the move very lethal, even for someone like Kisame. I mean, hell, if Gai can continue to land those hits for a few more seconds on Tsunade, pretty good. Plus I don't believe it was for the sharks, seems a bit weird if he was comparing the moves lethality to destroying water sharks.


he wasn't talking about the lethality of the move, he was talking about the mechanics of the move which is why he mentions the physics of gai's supersonic punches heating the air in order to generate a fireball that destroys the target.  And sure, it's suppose to be viewed as a lethal move, but so is *this* yet tsunade just up and regenerates from it.  



Jad said:


> Also, you got Gai pushing back Juubidara with his 7th Gate strength. Even after Madara said "Hey, this guy is underestimating me......." Doesn't seem like the guy to get pushed back by a guy he just said was underestimating him. That is on top of knowing Juubito without his cloak, effortlessly destroyed Sasuke's Rib Cage Sasuno. I mean you saw the speed increase that Gai got in the 7th Gate, and we know for a fact that Gates drastically increase strength with every gate. Really don't see Tsunade surving a 7th Gate barrage. Especially if we factor in _Multiple Hirudora's_


I don't see tsunade surviving that either....  I'm just saying that Gai doesn't throw susanoo busting punches in the 6th gate.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Intriguing. I understand (and agree) with your separation of general level & potential or possible level. I makes me think of DBZ. Tell me if this analogy makes sense:



If by "superior" you just mean "most likely to win against Gai in particular", then yes that analogy makes great sense for the most part.

Who beats who in a single specified battle is where the good or bad match-up labels (potentially) come into play imo though, so Gai being unable to actually kill a certain someone before he tired because of their defensive capabilities was never my _sole_ reasoning for deeming them superior in the overall sense (if that's what you meant by superior instead)



> Using the 8th Gate to slaughter his opponent and fall _that_ way is preferable to holding the final gate back just to run out of stamina and die anyway. This is a Tsunade thread, and personally, I don't believe Tsunade can kill Gai before he realizes he cannot kill her (though that's debatable).



Perhaps, but to tell you the truth, as far as I'm concerned between collaborations with her signature summons and medical Ninjutsu she could indeed still catch him before he realizes that it's a stamina game he's inevitably going to lose and feels pressured to draw it with his final card; I just find it easier to say she outlasts because more people seem to believe in her high stamina levels than her high battle prowess, since her abilities outside of ultimate regeneration and titanic strength are often overlooked for whatever reason.


----------



## Jagger (Apr 9, 2014)

Not even Madara with his Sage enhancements and the Juubi's chakra escaped unscathed out of Gai's final attack.

He oblirates Tsunade into nothing.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 9, 2014)

:rofl

Gai vaporises her with a single hit. And no, she won't regen from that.


----------



## Jagger (Apr 9, 2014)

Gai just bent space.


----------



## Kanki (Apr 9, 2014)

This chapter doesn't really tell us much new info really, as the final gate results in both dying. 

Unless lolnaruto is around, obviously.


----------



## Skywalker (Apr 9, 2014)

Gai kicks her into the sun.

Tsunade won't even be able to comprehend him.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 9, 2014)

I think the only fair answer to this is that it ends in a draw. 

Kisame endured Gai's 7th-Gate attack, there is little doubt in my mind that Tsunade could also endure it. It might be like in the case of Madara where Gai leaves Tsunade beaten to bloody mess, but she'll regenerate in the end. The stuff with Gai using a Kunai is pointless to me, because Gai can probably Karate chop Tsunade's head off with 7th-Gate anyway, no need for a Kunai. But still that would be pointless Tsunade can regenerate from being bisected we saw that in the manga and I wouldn't even be surprised if she could regrow an entirely new body for herself if not focused on healing the other Gokage; after all Byakugo is stated to regrow cells, limbs, and organs, so there shouldn't be an issue there.  By portrayal Gai is not above a Sannin until he pops that final gate, ether.

So in the end the battle would be Gai beating the piss out of Tsunade and her regenerating, until pops that final Gate and completely obliterates her body leaving nothing left with Evening Elephant and Night Gai. Than he'd also die


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Apr 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Tsunade can regenerate from being bisected



She needed Karin's help to heal.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 9, 2014)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> She needed Karin's help to heal.


This is only because her chakra was low after the Madara fight and the rest was divided between keeping herself alive, the other Gokage alive, and maintain Katsuya's Kuchiyose. Otherwise she would have been able to heal herself.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Apr 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I think the only fair answer to this is that it ends in a draw.



a draw? lol

if gai hits her she's going to explode. if he chops off her head shes dead instantly. no coming back from that


----------



## Jagger (Apr 9, 2014)

That is correct, but Gai dies as well.

Of course, they don't die at the exact time just like Shiki Fujin works, but it's the result: Both dying.


----------



## Orochibuto (Apr 9, 2014)

Surviving the fight and living on normally is not a requisit to win by BD standards, you just have to be able to live when the adversary dies.

So Gai wins, legit.


----------



## Jagger (Apr 9, 2014)

Anyway, I doubt Gai will open it.

The only reason he did was because he was fighting the Juubi's Jinchuuriki and the entire shinobi world depended on his actions, so that was enough reason for him to give away his life to save them all.

However, in this scenario, he's fighting just a Hokage (who cannot even be compared to Juudara's power) around the same level of power he has.


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## LostSelf (Apr 9, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Anyway, I doubt Gai will open it.
> 
> The only reason he did was because he was fighting the Juubi's Jinchuuriki and the entire shinobi world depended on his actions, so that was enough reason for him to give away his life to save them all.
> 
> However, in this scenario, he's fighting just a Hokage (who cannot even be compared to Juudara's power) around the same level of power he has.



This doesn't matter. If he feels he is going to lose, he will open it.


----------



## Bonly (Apr 9, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Anyway, I doubt Gai will open it.
> 
> The only reason he did was because he was fighting the Juubi's Jinchuuriki and the entire shinobi world depended on his actions, so that was enough reason for him to give away his life to save them all.
> 
> However, in this scenario, he's fighting just a Hokage (who cannot even be compared to Juudara's power) around the same level of power he has.



Gai was gonna open the 8th Gate to *deflect 5 bijuudamas* because he+Kakashi were backed in a corner and there was nothing else he could do. Not because the ninja world depended on it, not because he was up against the Juubi Jin, not because everything depended on his actions but because he was backed against into a corner with nothing else to use. If Gai for whatever reason felt he was backed into a corner with nothing else to use then he'd could be willing go into the 8th gate even if Tsuande is "just a Hokage around the same level of power he has". Though personally I doubt he'd need to actually use it.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 9, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> This doesn't matter. If he feels he is going to lose, he will open it.



So the mess do you think happened when Madara was still an Edo?

If he feels Kakashi and Lee are going to die he'll open it, otherwise it doesn't seem likely to happen until it's already too late.


----------



## Orochibuto (Apr 9, 2014)

This is not a sparring match, it is a serious battle to death. If Gai feels he is going to lose, he will use it.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 9, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> So the mess do you think happened when Madara was still an Edo?
> 
> If he feels Kakashi and Lee are going to die he'll open it, otherwise it doesn't seem likely to happen until it's already too late.



Too late about what? Gai failed in 7th gate against Madara and right away he used the eight. I seriously doubt he will wait to be in a dying state to use it, he can last a pretty long time in gates to figure out he might need the eight.

If by too late you mean Tsunade hitting Gai and killing him in the 7th gate? Because she hasn't shown anything to assume she can hit such a fast and skilled shinobi in close combat.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 9, 2014)

If only Guy had used a kunai against Madara, he would have saved the world.  I guess the stakes weren't high enough for him reach into his back pocket and pull out his trump card.



> So, Gai is beating on Madara, and for some reason, he keeps on healing. So he is like "Ok, instead of wasting my time and energy any further. Let's try a different tactic, see if it works. If it doesn't, I will go 8 Gates."



Alas, he spared Madara.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 9, 2014)

All that aside, Madara said that kick almost really killed him, and even though he regenerated head, torso, and limb one moment later, which he for some reason didn't seem to be doing all along, his reality warping super dynamic entry dragon rage can probably kill anyone that isn't Rikkudo type.  It also blew out a torso with a taijutsu attack, and it was Madara's durable torso, and blunt force becoming blast force has only ever been done by Tsunade.  So 8th gate Guy can kill Tsunade and Ei and those durable peoples.


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## 311998 (Apr 9, 2014)

Aren't we missing the six gates's techniques like morning peacock or afternoon tiger......

It'll really do some damage and if tsunade keeps on healing it won't do any good, just wasting chakra...
So gai can win all he need to do is just hittin hard and dodging attacks....i bet gai is faster than tsunade.....so no need fof eighth gate.


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## Jagger (Apr 9, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Gai was gonna open the 8th Gate to *deflect 5 bijuudamas* because he+Kakashi were backed in a corner and there was nothing else he could do. Not because the ninja world depended on it, not because he was up against the Juubi Jin, not because everything depended on his actions but because he was backed against into a corner with nothing else to use. If Gai for whatever reason felt he was backed into a corner with nothing else to use then he'd could be willing go into the 8th gate even if Tsuande is "just a Hokage around the same level of power he has". Though personally I doubt he'd need to actually use it.


Fair enough, you have a good point there. I was just pointing out something, but this isn't basically the same kind of battle you'd find normally in the manga, but a hypothetical one in the BD.


----------



## Orochibuto (Apr 9, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Fair enough, you have a good point there. I was just pointing out something, but this isn't basically the same kind of battle you'd find normally in the manga, but a hypothetical one in the BD.



In a BD battle Gai is even more likely to open them.

Battledome battles happen in a completely isolated scenario, where nothing matters to the combatants but the fight, they are not sparring matches but fight to the death.

IC means they won't be completely bloodlusted, but they are still fighting to win and to the death and nothing else matter to them that is not present in the battlefield. They are not thinking about going home or anything like that, their mind is completely focused on the fight and to them is as serious as it can get.


----------



## Ram (Apr 9, 2014)

Rapestomp. Gai wins.


----------



## Jagger (Apr 9, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> In a BD battle Gai is even more likely to open them.
> 
> Battledome battles happen in a completely isolated scenario, where nothing matters to the combatants but the fight, they are not sparring matches but fight to the death.
> 
> IC means they won't be completely bloodlusted, but they are still fighting to win and to the death and nothing else matter to them that is not present in the battlefield. They are not thinking about going home or anything like that, their mind is completely focused on the fight and to them is as serious as it can get.


You literally said what I posted, but on a much further analysis. 

I've agreed with Bonly's point. Gai was indeed going to use the last Gate to save Kakashi and the others from the Bijuudama.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 9, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> In a BD battle Gai is even more likely to open them.
> 
> Battledome battles happen in a completely isolated scenario, where nothing matters to the combatants but the fight, they are not sparring matches but fight to the death.
> 
> IC means they won't be completely bloodlusted, but they are still fighting to win and to the death and nothing else matter to them that is not present in the battlefield. They are not thinking about going home or anything like that, their mind is completely focused on the fight and to them is as serious as it can get.



That's not how BD Matches work at all. IC is exactly what it says. In character. As in exactly how they would act in the manga. Meaning it's a necessity for them to win the battle in the most conventional way with their lives sparred.  It doesn't mean winning the battle is all they desire unless specified by the OP. 

The closest thing to what you mean is bloodlusted. And even that isn't as exaggerated as you assume. Bloodlust simply means the desire to see blood, or to see ones opponent killed. That only means the ninja will probably open up with more lethal attacks, and will most likely take it a step further then IC. It doesn't not in any means, however, mean that he person will throw their lives away for the sake of one battle.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> That's not how BD Matches work at all. IC is exactly what it says. In character. As in exactly how they would act in the manga. Meaning it's a necessity for them to win the battle in the most conventional way with their lives sparred.  It doesn't mean winning the battle is all they desire unless specified by the OP.
> 
> The closest thing to what you mean is bloodlusted. And even that isn't as exaggerated as you assume. Bloodlust simply means the desire to see blood, or to see ones opponent killed. That only means the ninja will probably open up with more lethal attacks, and will most likely take it a step further then IC. It doesn't not in any means, however, mean that he person will throw their lives away for the sake of one battle.



It is still a battle to death; not a sparring match.

Be logical; if Gai sees he can win in a deathmatch the 8th gate is the logical choice.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 10, 2014)

Something to note here is that opening trhe eight gate against an _Edo Tensei_ is meaningless. There wasn't a sealing shinobi by that time until Gaara came, but after that, Juubi was in the fight, so it was meaningless still since the mighty Hashirama and Minato were there.

Also, Edo Madara could've beaten up Gai badly _before_ he used it just like he trashed Ei without Perfect Susano'o.

Two things different here: Tsunade is not an Edo and Tsunade is not beating up Gai to make it too late for him to open him.

I see no reason to why he will keep a full day hitting her and never realize he needs the eight. And i seriously doubt that he will not open it because Tsunade doesn't deserve it and die like that.

_Never break that rule and die without killing my opponent or break the rule, kill my opponent and die later._

The right choice to that is simple to see.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Too late about what? Gai failed in 7th gate against Madara and right away he used the eight.



Look at the post you just quoted. I asked you what happened _*"when Madara was still an Edo"*_. Gai didn't use the eight gate before he was exhausted there and coughing up blood profusely- the fact that he was losing was more clear there than it would be anywhere else, so where was the final gate? He wasn't going to use it, because he didn't have Kakashi or Lee next to him.


----------



## Fluon (Apr 10, 2014)

LOOOOOOL, people still think that Gai couldn't beat the 5 kages, in 7th gate ? 
Gai could rape Tsunade before she can even react.



LostSelf said:


> Something to note here is that opening trhe eight gate against an _Edo Tensei_ is meaningless. There wasn't a sealing shinobi by that time until Gaara came, but after that, Juubi was in the fight, so it was meaningless still since the mighty Hashirama and Minato were there.
> 
> Also, Edo Madara could've beaten up Gai badly _before_ he used it just like he trashed Ei without Perfect Susano'o.



  
A ?  
You're comparing A and Gai ? What's wrong with you, are even reading this manga or what ?
Also Edo Madara stronger than juudara ? 
It's not even as strong as blind alive Madara, read the fucking manga.


----------



## Jad (Apr 10, 2014)

Fluon said:


> LOOOOOOL, people still think that Gai couldn't beat the 5 kages, in 7th gate ?
> Gai could rape Tsunade before she can even react.
> 
> 
> ...



I believe Lost Self is in an argument discussing why Gai didn't go 8 Gates against Edo Madara. Pretty sure you and him are on the same page as far as 8th Gate Gai is concerned in power level, and him beating Tsunade within the 7th Gate.​


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## Fluon (Apr 10, 2014)

Jad said:


> I believe Lost Self is in an argument discussing why Gai didn't go 8 Gates against Edo Madara. Pretty sure you and him are on the same page as far as 8th Gate Gai is concerned in power level, and him beating Tsunade within the 7th Gate.​



I was talking about Edo madara beating Gai.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 10, 2014)

Quoting this:



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Have people forgotten the _one and only condition_ that Gai actually activates the eighth gate on?




Gai is _not_ going to haphazardly open the eighth gate. He's only ever used it or inferred that he would use it when his friends are in danger, that is the only condition upon which he uses such a double-edged sword. Even then he doesn't rush into using it - against Madara and Obito he held off on using it for a long time. Even when Naruto's chakra was being _sucked up_ by mokuton and Madara assumed a giant Susano'o form, Gai chose to activate the seventh gate and _use Hirudora_ rather than kill himself with the eighth gate. In doing so, he absolutely _exhausted_ himself afterwards and was incapable of battle. It took Kurama giving him chakra and Shizune _chakra pumping him_ also just for him to be able to activate the _fifth gate_. He needed Naruto's _Kyuubi chakra_ to fight properly afterwards, and once it disappeared he was _exhausted again_. I should add, when he opens the seventh gate and attacks Madara with Hirudora, he is _downed temporarily_.

Evidently Gai has cool-down periods and moments of weakness. He cannot spam Asa Kujakus and Hirudora without suffering the consequences, especially not if he fights Tsunade for any lengthy period of time in his lower gated forms first. There aren't any medics or chakra beasts to restore his reserves in this match up, so his onslaught of attacks won't be as perpetual.​​


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## LostSelf (Apr 10, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Look at the post you just quoted. I asked you what happened _*"when Madara was still an Edo"*_. Gai didn't use the eight gate before he was exhausted there and coughing up blood profusely- the fact that he was losing was more clear there than it would be anywhere else, so where was the final gate? He wasn't going to use it, because he didn't have Kakashi or Lee next to him.



Because Madara would've regenerated, Gai would've died and nothing would've changed.

It's what i said above. Madara was an Edo Tensei and no amount of punches would've killed him, plus, Madara had the means to defeat a 7th gates Gai. Tsunade doesn't have any of those luxurys as her only means of beating Gai is outlasting him. The scenarios are very diferent, though. In this specific fight, i don't see Gai letting himself killed just because Kakashi isn't there. If he is gonna die anyway, he will use the eight.

Or because Kishimoto left the gates up until that point, wich is obvious, but i better use the first example. 



Fluon said:


> LOOOOOOL, people still think that Gai couldn't beat the 5 kages, in 7th gate ?
> Gai could rape Tsunade before she can even react.
> 
> 
> ...



Nobody is comparing, i am saying that Madara defeated 7th gates Gai just like he defeated Ei. This is by no means comparing him to Ei, however, in speed they are not far apart, and comparing Gai's defeat to that of the 5 kages together is not being bad towards Gai without the eight gate.

7th gates Gai is not defeating the five kage combined. I am a Gai fangirl (No, i am not a girl), but please, let's be serious.

And what are you talking about? When did i say that Edo Madara was stronger than Juudara? .


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Because Madara would've regenerated, Gai would've died and nothing would've changed.



Bee, who was right there with Gai, has an ink-technique capable of sealing _Edo Tensei_ provided they could be incapacitated.

So that's a sorry excuse that doesn't fly.



> Tsunade doesn't have any of those luxurys as her only means of beating Gai is outlasting him.



Tsunade has more ways to beat Gai than waiting for him to tire.



> The scenarios are very diferent, though. In this specific fight, i don't see Gai letting himself killed just because Kakashi isn't there. If he is gonna die anyway, he will use the eight.



The scenarios aren't different pertaining to the actual use of the final gate IC.


----------



## SSMG (Apr 10, 2014)

Actually its IC for Guy to use 8 gates when his 7th gate doesn't get the job done.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2014)

In a scenario where Kakashi and Lee are absent?

Since when?


----------



## Rocky (Apr 10, 2014)

Gai uses the 8th Gate to "protect the things he cares for".

FlamingRain, Gondaime, do you guys think Gai doesn't care about_ himself_?


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2014)

Nope. Gai is unimportant and he knows it.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 10, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Nope. Gai is unimportant and he knows it.



Though it may be after a very long battle, I think Gai would want to go out with a bang. 

I mean, why not use it? He looks so badass doing so, and he knows it.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2014)

He treasures his eyebrows too much to light them on fire unless he can look at Lee's for reassurance that the earth will still have a pair of them left, or at Kakashi, who reminds him of Lee and his eyebrows questioning their rivalry.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 10, 2014)

If you want to go by feats, the 7th gate Guy that bum rushed JJ Madara would turn weaker Edo Madara into paste.

Except he didn't, and got eviscerated by a bored weak pre-occupied edo Madara, because Kishi is terribly inconsistent and threw out any potentially consistent power scaling.  In a few chapter, we could have 8th Gated Guy totally unable to grasp at Madara's shadow, for no reason, and it would just happen.  Similar to how Naruto made kage level clones that could turn into a bolt of lightening to repel bijuudama, and then had to get saved by edo Hiruzen from a magic tree that Sakura could escape from.

Guy also could have gone that same JJ blitzing, kamui out pacing 7 gates, and speed blitzed Obito.  Except he didn't do that either, and the reason he didn't is probably that he couldn't, or else he obviously would have to save the world, and the reason that he couldn't is Kishi didn't decide he could yet, and then later decided he could without any thought to what it meant in retrospect, or what it would mean for the future.  

Which makes more sense than the in universe explanation, that jogging between battles raised Guy's power and gate time exponentially.  At this point, it looks like if Guy and Kakashi had done three days of serious training, with a medic on standby, they would have instantly stood on the cusp of the ninja world.


----------



## SSMG (Apr 10, 2014)

7th gate Guy had a fight with Edo Madara? Since when?

Edit and guy explained why he didnt use gates when going against obito. he could keep the pressure on him in base...


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 10, 2014)

He could have gone 7 gates to fight him.  Instead this happened.

Madara was holding back too, and focused on Naruto.


EDIT:
This is dumb.  But space time taijutsu is awesome.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 10, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Bee, who was right there with Gai, has an ink-technique capable of sealing _Edo Tensei_ provided they could be incapacitated.
> 
> So that's a sorry excuse that doesn't fly.



I don't know man. But the excuse i am not buying is Gai dying without using it just because a Kakashi who doesn't exists in this matchup isn't here. Obito was there, and he could've warped Madara away in any case.



> Tsunade has more ways to beat Gai than waiting for him to tire.



Please elaborate with actual proofs of Tsunade showing something that let's her react to Gai..



> The scenarios aren't different pertaining to the actual use of the final gate IC.



He is not using eight gates right of the bat. But i bet he is not so stupid to die without using it just because Kishimoto waited this long to show the gates.


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## Jagger (Apr 10, 2014)

POW has a point. Kishi threw through the window so many things it wouldn't make sense anymore. 

Not only height proportions, but the timelines as well including power-level.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 10, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Nope. Gai is unimportant and he knows it.





.


----------



## Cord (Apr 11, 2014)

I wouldn't bet on Gai opening the Eight Gate against an opponent like Tsunade. She's nothing like Madara, doesn't have the power enough to threaten the entire Shinobi world therefore, his mindset here would be different. I can see him opening only up to the seventh gate. While I used to side with Gai in this match, I'm having a shift in opinion due to the impressive display of both Tsunade and Katsuyu's durability and resiliency feats that might as well enable her to withstand most of Gai's attacks and heal from them, with her reliable summon along with her to aid her if need be - both in her offense, defense and medical healing. 

So yeah, I'm inclined to believe that Tsunade will emerge victorious in this match.

... Oops.


----------



## Mercurial (Apr 11, 2014)

Gai is on another tier than Tsunade, by feats, hype, portrayal, everything you may like. And obviously I'm not counting the 8th Gate, but that isn't like a fairy tale, it's an actual power that Gai can use. A SM + Mokuton + Rinnegan + EMS + Juubi's jinchuriki motherfucking Madara level power.

A worn out base Gai can hold off Obito's Kamui with just reflexes and taijutsu skill. A 7th Gate Gai can pressure Juubidara with his speed and taijutsu, Minato with Hiraishin was blitzed and stomped in a millisecond. Madara has directly compared 8th Gate to fucking Hashirama Senju, and by feats 8th Gate Gai is actually stronger. Gai is the rival of a shinobi of Kakashi's caliber and one of the biggest players in the War Arc.

Katsuyu, even if a 6th or 7th Gate Gai was let her the time to summon, he can simply stomp it with Asa Kujaku. A snail's body is made of water for 90-95% at least, and the rest are body fluids; Asa Kujaku insta-vaporized away a giant Suiton shark wave, 1000 Suiton sharks, probably bigger than the Katsuyu that Tsunade usually summons. Katsuyu can handle the impact but not the fire.

Gai can blitz Tsunade and kill her with a couple of Hiry Tora, or repeated Asa Kujaku. Or just stomp her with a taijutsu combo, breaking her skull's bones or her neck. Or take a kunai and carve her head. The speed, and taijutsu skill gap is just... wide.

LOL at Tsunade, and this is with deep respect for her character. But she is far outclassed.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 11, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> LOL at Tsunade, *and this is with deep respect for her character*.



  

If you say so.​​


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 11, 2014)

Cordelia said:


> I wouldn't bet on Gai opening the Eight Gate against an opponent like Tsunade. She's nothing like Madara, doesn't have the power enough to threaten the entire Shinobi world therefore, his mindset here would be different. I can see him opening only up to the seventh gate. While I used to side with Gai in this match, I'm having a shift in opinion due to the impressive display of both Tsunade and Katsuyu's durability and resiliency feats that might as well enable her to withstand most of Gai's attacks and heal from them, with her reliable summon along with her to aid her if need be - both in her offense, defense and medical healing.
> 
> So yeah, I'm inclined to believe that Tsunade will emerge victorious in this match.
> 
> ... Oops.



Wow, just...wow. I reached my limit. I cannot go against Gai or against Cordelia.

It's simply impossible for me. I will step aside . I hope Jad and Rocky continue defending Gai for me .

FlamingRain, i am sorry, but Cordelia defeated me without even quoting me.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 11, 2014)

I think this:



> *Gai is a man of counters*
> 
> Kishimoto created Gai as a person who is all about countering. The one example, which should be enough, is him reading the opponents feet to avoid the sharingan genjutsu. If Tsunade was Gai's rival (well, rival enemy, rivals don't kill each other) his counter to Tsunade would be a Kunai. Like Gai created a counter to circumvent genjutsu, he can also create a counter to circumvent regeneration in the form of a Kunai. This is inverse logic I am using. Gai is a man that creates counters. So why not against someone like Tsunade? It isn't like Gai hasn't wielded a foreign weapon before. He literally wielded Samehada against Kisame. So I reiterate, why not a Kunai? Gai is about counters - Kishi logic. The same should be for Tsunade.



...makes a bunch of sense. I personally don't see Tsunade's offense as threatening to Gated Gai _at all_, so if she wins, it's going to be via attrition.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I think this makes a bunch of sense. I personally don't see Tsunade's offense as threatening to Gated Gai _at all_, so if she wins, it's going to be via attrition.



And what, Tsunade _isn't_ known for her clever counter manoeuvres? 

When given the opportunity she uses the shosen no jutsu counter-intuitively on Orochimaru. Then, when fighting against him later on, she uses Gamabunta's sword to kill Manda whenever Katsuyu's acid blasts weren't working. When she heard about Pein's ability to control gravity, she thought to charge chakra to her feet to keep herself rooted to the ground. Before facing against Madara, she was the one who suggested using Hiraishin to teleport Mei to the battlefield in order to counter his katon jutsu. Whenever actually fighting against Madara, she tried using his own jutsu against him after seeing that that her jutsu were not working. 

Tsunade is just as capable of forming creative counters as Gai is, if not more so.

Here are just some of the counters she could formulate in a match up where her blows are failing to land and she's continually sustaining damage:



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> Katsuyu's divisions could use Daibunretsu to split up into thousands upon thousands of smaller divisions that can all attack in tandem with Tsunade. They can spit acid, or Tsunade can channel harmful medical chakra through them to injure Gai on contact. Divisions can also meld themselves onto or around Gai to distract or immobilise him temporarily. Katsuyu can even melt herself all over Gai to submerge him in a fuck ton of slime, and while he's busy trying to bust himself out of it, smaller divisions can emerge from the goo and spew acid at him. The divisions are also impossible to kill for someone who uses nothing but blunt force trauma.


​


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Apr 11, 2014)

> And what, Tsunade isn't known for her clever counter manoeuvres?
> 
> When given the opportunity she uses the shosen no jutsu counter-intuitively on Orochimaru. Then, when fighting against him later on, she uses Gamabunta's sword to kill Manda whenever Katsuyu's acid blasts weren't working. When she heard about Pein's ability to control gravity, she thought to charge chakra to her feet to keep herself rooted to the ground. Before facing against Madara, she was the one who suggested using Hiraishin to teleport Mei to the battlefield in order to counter his katon jutsu. Whenever actually fighting against Madara, she tried using his own jutsu against him after seeing that that her jutsu were not working.
> 
> ...



That's nice and all but a Gated Gai is faster then to her to such an extent that her clever antics won't amount to much.  That's not even considering the fact that Gai is no slouch when it comes to tactics either.  He knows about he regneration.  He'll likely go 7th Gate and punch a hole through her jugular, and rip off her neck.  She won't even register being dead till her head hits the ground.  It's really that simple.



> Katsuyu's divisions could use Daibunretsu to split up into thousands upon thousands of smaller divisions that can all attack in tandem with Tsunade. They can spit acid, or Tsunade can channel harmful medical chakra through them to injure Gai on contact. Divisions can also meld themselves onto or around Gai to distract or immobilise him temporarily. Katsuyu can even melt herself all over Gai to submerge him in a fuck ton of slime, and while he's busy trying to bust himself out of it, smaller divisions can emerge from the goo and spew acid at him. The divisions are also impossible to kill for someone who uses nothing but blunt force trauma.



I'm sorry, but that's a strategy that would only be used in the Konoha Colosseum, but never in the actual manga.  That style of fighting would be so out of character for Tsunade who's just smashy smashy the majority of the time.  I mean you listed molding chakra to her feet during a pulling gravity jutsu as one of her great innovations.  Sorry she's not Shikamaru.


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## SSMG (Apr 11, 2014)

Why is this even still a topic bh? Guy almost kiled the juubi jin host madara with no help... tsuande got fodderized by a weaker verison of the same foe and she had 4 other kage backing her up.

feats wise guys wins without 8th gate 10/10 times. tsunade 

story wise guy was already stated to be > all five kages in eighth gate so 10/10 for hin here too


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 11, 2014)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> That's nice and all but a Gated Gai is faster then to her to such an extent that her clever antics won't amount to much.  That's not even considering the fact that Gai is no slouch when it comes to tactics either.  He knows about he regneration.  He'll likely go 7th Gate and punch a hole through her jugular, and rip off her neck.  She won't even register being dead till her head hits the ground.  It's really that simple.



Gai doesn't know about regeneration, he has never fought Tsunade or seen her fight. Also, Gated Gai cannot kick holes in her unless he activates all eight gates, which he isn't going to do. The eighth gate is vastly more powerful than the seventh, and Tsunade is pretty durable. His seventh gated strikes won't suffice to put her down. 

Just as he did against Madara, Gai will throw a barrage of kicks and punches, most of which will be direct hits and beat the shit out of Tsunade. However, she shrugs off the damage and starts to regenerate. Then Gai uses Hirudora, blows up the battlefield, exhausts himself, only to find that Tsunade is still regenerating and slowly rising to her feet. 



> I'm sorry, but that's a strategy that would only be used in the Konoha Colosseum, but never in the actual manga.  That style of fighting would be so out of character for Tsunade who's just smashy smashy the majority of the time.  I mean you listed molding chakra to her feet during a pulling gravity jutsu as one of her great innovations.  Sorry she's not Shikamaru.



And herein lies the double standards. Using Katsuyu's Daibunretsu and body melting abilities in conjunction with her taijutsu is OOC for her to use in regular battle scenarios, and thus she will not use them and just die using tactics she knows do not work. Gai, on the other hand, is allowed to use OOC tactics in order to win. Double. Standards.

And yes, I did list that moulding chakra feat as one of her innovations. Why? Because it's something no one else who ever fought Pein thought to do. I should add, its not like Gai thinking to avoid eye contact against an opponent who uses _eye_ genjutsu, stealing the sword off of a _swords_-user, or cutting off someone's head to kill them, takes a whole lot of intellect to formulate either.​​


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Apr 11, 2014)

> Gai, on the other hand, is allowed to use OOC tactics in order to win. Double. Standards.



Punching or kicking someone in their vitals.  That's OOC for Gai?  In the latest chapter Gai kicked Madara in his kidneys.  What you're asking is above and beyond what the manga has portrayed.   What I'm asking is not.  Punching someone in a jugular isn't that crazy for a martial artist.

I honestly don't think Tsunade's skin is thick enough to withstand Gai's punches and not get holes blown in 



> Then Gai uses Hirudora, blows up the battlefield, exhausts himself, only to find that Tsunade is still regenerating and slowly rising to her feet.



Tsunade isn't getting up after Hirudora.  Gai only used Hirodora at range to catch the sharks.  At point blank range it would blow off parts of Tsunade's body just like Madara's.  I realize that Night Moth is far stronger than Hirodora, but Madara in far more durable then Tsunade will ever be.



> And yes, I did list that moulding chakra feat as one of her innovations. Why? Because it's something no one else who ever fought Pein thought to do. I should add, its not like Gai thinking to avoid eye contact against an opponent who uses eye genjutsu, stealing the sword off of a swords-user, or cutting off someone's head to kill them, takes a whole lot of intellect to formulate either.



Being mediocre in a world of idiots only makes you clever in comparison to the relative stupidity of the world you live in.  Nothing you said invalidates my point.  Again you're using tactics that would only ever appear in the Konoha Colosseum.  All of Tsunades battle tactics are pretty straight forward.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 12, 2014)

TSFoD is still alive?


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## Louis-954 (Apr 12, 2014)

Why is this still being debated? 7th and 8th Gate Guy far surpass Tsunade in strength, speed and taijutsu proficiency. Her regeneration is not going to restore blown off limbs or a pancaked head.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 12, 2014)

Tsuande could probably beat base Gai, and could likely defeat Sixth Gate Gai as well?albeit, with a great degree of difficulty, if only because of his immense movement and striking speed.

I would think that Seventh and Eighth Gate Gai are out of the question, though. Circumstances aside, blue steam Gai was pressuring and forcing Madara back with a rapid sequence of taijutsu moves, followed by a hirudora. Madara survived, and didn't seem to have a great level of difficulty keeping up with him, but if we keep in mind the astronomical difference in strength and speed between current Madara and Tsunade, it's unlikely she could replicate the same feat. I think, with regeneration, Tsunade could survive a shot of hirudora, but there's two crucial factors here:

As we saw against Madara, Gai can likely launch it way before she even activates any of her regenerative techniques.
Gai has been using hirudora throughout the war, seemingly without any repercussions. Even if Tsunade can survive one direct hit, it probably wouldn't be the last one she'd see from him.

Red steam Gai beating Tsunade should be a no-brainer, though.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 12, 2014)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> Punching or kicking someone in their vitals.  That's OOC for Gai?  In the latest chapter Gai kicked Madara in his kidneys.  What you're asking is above and beyond what the manga has portrayed.   What I'm asking is not.  Punching someone in a jugular isn't that crazy for a martial artist.



No, that is IC for Gai. I think you misunderstand my point. There are people in this thread claiming that if Gai is struggling to put Tsunade down with blunt force trauma, he'll resort to pulling out kunai and lopping of her head, or actively trying to rip her head off with overwhelming strength. Gai has produced counter-strategies to fighting off opponents he otherwise could not defeat before, such as looking at Itachi's feet to avoid genjutsu, or stealing Kisame's sword to stop him sucking up chakra. That logic is sound. 

The problem is that these tactics are OOC for Gai to use, and he would only ever use them when he's put in a situation where he otherwise could not fight off his opponent or at least whenever his opponents are proving very troublesome to put down by conventional means. I stress, using a kunai, or trying to rip off his opponents head, are not OOC tactics for Gai to use.

Neither are the tactics I'm proposing that Tsunade could use. But if she's cornered, and has no other options, why _wouldn't_ she use them? 



> I honestly don't think Tsunade's skin is thick enough to withstand Gai's punches and not get holes blown in



Tsunade survived being teleported inside a lightning bolt that would rip the average joe to shreds, having only some cuts and scratches afterwards. When hit by a Yasaka Magatama (that had enough power to forcefully blast her into a large boulder which exploded upon impact) she sustained little more than a bit of bruising. And, she didn't have a Katsuyu clone to protect her when Chou Shinra Tensei made impact with the village. Even though she was weakened, she could still stand and was prepared to fight. 

Considering that a plethora of sixth gated Gai's strikes [1] [2] _failed to put any holes_ in a 30% Kisame's body, I just don't see seven gated Gai's regular strikes putting any holes in a more durable body.



> Tsunade isn't getting up after Hirudora.  Gai only used Hirodora at range to catch the sharks.  At point blank range it would blow off parts of Tsunade's body just like Madara's.  I realize that Night Moth is far stronger than Hirodora, but Madara in far more durable then Tsunade will ever be.



It didn't blow off any parts of Madara's body, Madara was completely unharmed after Gai used Hirudora on him. Also, I don't see why it would inflict much more damage at close range anyway. Hirudora starts off small and then expands. Once fully expanding it explodes, and that's when the big damage occurs. 



> Being mediocre in a world of idiots only makes you clever in comparison to the relative stupidity of the world you live in.  Nothing you said invalidates my point.  Again you're using tactics that would only ever appear in the Konoha Colosseum.  All of Tsunades battle tactics are pretty straight forward.



It doesn't change the fact that if her regular IC tactics fail to work, she isn't going to turn down doing OOC things she doesn't normally do, especially if they have a shot at working. That just stands to reason. Even if you think they are " Konoha Colosseum " tactics, they are perfectly plausible for Tsunade to use in pressuring situations. She's done all of the things I mentioned before, she's just never actually done them in combat situations - but that doesn't mean she's not going to do so if push comes to shove.​​


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## Grimsley (Apr 12, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade is my new favourite poster.


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2014)

I see only one problem with Tsunade's Katsuyu tactics:

Managing to do it once Gai starts blitzing her just like Lee did to Gaara. We know how Gaara could do nothing, or how Kisame could do nothing to stop it, and considering the speed in wich Gai moves six gates onwards, if Tsunade is not inside Katsuyu before Gai goes gates, i don't see her summoning, as Gai won't give her the time, especially with knowledge of Katsuyu.

And i doubt Tsunade will get inside Katsuyu against base Gai, so... It's very likely that she can only find herself winning via attrition, and that is if 7th gates doesn't kill her, AND if Gai doesn't decide for some unknown reason that he won't go eight gates.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 12, 2014)

jackieshann said:


> Godaime Tsunade is my new favourite poster.



Oh you 



LostSelf said:


> I see only one problem with Tsunade's Katsuyu tactics:
> 
> Managing to do it once Gai starts blitzing her just like Lee did to Gaara. We know how Gaara could do nothing, or how Kisame could do nothing to stop it, and considering the speed in wich Gai moves six gates onwards, if Tsunade is not inside Katsuyu before Gai goes gates, i don't see her summoning, as Gai won't give her the time, especially with knowledge of Katsuyu.
> 
> And i doubt Tsunade will get inside Katsuyu against base Gai, so... It's very likely that she can only find herself winning via attrition, and that is if 7th gates doesn't kill her, AND if Gai doesn't decide for some unknown reason that he won't go eight gates.



Katsuyu is it's own separate entity, or, thousands of entities, if needs be. Even if Gai is blitzing Tsunade there are potentially thousands of other enemies to deal with. Enemies that can cling to him, reform around him, melt themselves over him, spit acid over him etc. Gai is fast but he doesn't have eyes on the back of his head. There's strength in numbers.

I should add, Tsunade was capable of giving Katsuyu chakra even while cut in half, I don't think it would be beyond her power to do so even when getting hit by Gai's strikes.​​


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## Cognitios (Apr 12, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade in a Tsunade thread


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Oh you
> 
> 
> 
> Katsuyu is it's own separate entity, or, thousands of entities, if needs be. Even if Gai is blitzing Tsunade there are potentially thousands of other enemies to deal with. Enemies that can cling to him, reform around him, melt themselves over him, spit acid over him etc. Gai is fast but he doesn't have eyes on the back of his head. There's strength in numbers.​




But my point is summoning Katsuyu when Gai is kicking Tsunade nonstop, i mean, not giving hre any time to do so. Also, Katsuyu cannot react to Gai's movement speed, and the slug needs to see him and have him in one place for her to attack, something i would find plausible if Gai is not moving, but considering Tsunade is going to be moving from place to place at high speeds by Gai's attacks, Katsuyu will have a hard time hitting Gai.

There's also the huge possibility of friendly fire, as Tsunade can be hit by her own friend's acid, or Gai can capitalize on that and kick Tsunade directly to the blasts of acid Katsuyu throws, helping himself a great deal there.



> I should add, Tsunade was capable of giving Katsuyu chakra even while cut in half, I don't think it would be beyond her power to do so even when getting hit by Gai's strikes.


​
I agree with this and see nothing wrong with this, since my point about how 7th gates Gai could beat her is not overwhelming her regeneration with one power hit, but outspeeding it with multiple, almost like C4 would do, but this is another thing, because my point above is getting to summon Katsuyu when Gai is already gated and attacking.


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## Jad (Apr 12, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> or Gai can capitalize on that and kick Tsunade directly to the blasts of acid Katsuyu throws, helping himself a great deal there.



That's so brutal....I mean, I do remember Tsunade fans saying Katsuya would make a lot of puddles of Acid. Why didn't I think of that?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Katsuya..........


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 12, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> But my point is summoning Katsuyu when Gai is kicking Tsunade nonstop, i mean, not giving hre any time to do so. Also, Katsuyu cannot react to Gai's movement speed, and the slug needs to see him and have him in one place for her to attack, something i would find plausible if Gai is not moving, but considering Tsunade is going to be moving from place to place at high speeds by Gai's attacks, Katsuyu will have a hard time hitting Gai.



It wouldn't be hard for Tsunade to summon Katsuyu. In fact, I dare to say she could summon _while_ being hit. Tsunade only needs to draw blood and then tap her finger to summon the slug, she doesn't even need handseals anymore. 

And yeah, Katsuyu can't react to Gai. However, does she actually need to? If Katsuyu is in her large form then her acidic blasts are so huge that she can afford to launch them quite haphazardly - especially if Gai is in the air (where dodging is impossible). Smaller divisions can spit acid at Gai's general direction upon Tsunade's instruction, that way acid is moving about over a large area in many places at once. Even if they aren't making accurate blasts, there's a chance that Gai will run into one if he's busy dodging a blast coming from another direction, or Tsunade's smshy tactics.



> There's also the huge possibility of friendly fire, as Tsunade can be hit by her own friend's acid, or Gai can capitalize on that and kick Tsunade directly to the blasts of acid Katsuyu throws, helping himself a great deal there.



I agree, but in situations where Tsunade is at risk of being hit Katsuyu could turn to alternative methods. Tsunade could channel harmful medical chakra through her, for example. Or divisions could surround Gai and try to reform around him to trap or at least distract him. 



> I agree with this and see nothing wrong with this, since my point about how 7th gates Gai could beat her is not overwhelming her regeneration with one power hit, but outspeeding it with multiple, almost like C4 would do, but this is another thing, because my point above is getting to summon Katsuyu when Gai is already gated and attacking.



Well, I disagree with your assertion that C4/7th gate would out-speed her near instantaneous regeneration, but let's leave that argument for another time.​​


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> It wouldn't be hard for Tsunade to summon Katsuyu. In fact, I dare to say she could summon _while_ being hit. Tsunade only needs to draw blood and then tap her finger to summon the slug, she doesn't even need handseals anymore.​




This depends on how well she can take Gai's attacks. Considering they are called super sonic, Tsunade might not be able to do it. Look at Gaara, for example, he only could move to try to block when Lee stopped attacking him, Kisame as well, and since Kisame might not be as resilent as her, the man is very durable.



> And yeah, Katsuyu can't react to Gai. However, does she actually need to? If Katsuyu is in her large form then her acidic blasts are so huge that she can afford to launch them quite haphazardly - especially if Gai is in the air (where dodging is impossible). Smaller divisions can spit acid at Gai's general direction upon Tsunade's instruction, that way acid is moving about over a large area in many places at once. Even if they aren't making accurate blasts, there's a chance that Gai will run into one if he's busy dodging a blast coming from another direction, or Tsunade's smshy tactics.



This is the problem, her acid is huge, but it's not a concentrated blast coming in one direction, it's spread in diferent directions as shown when she attacked Manda with it. Someone as small as Gai compared to the acid would not need to outrun it, just move to a place where part of the acid doesn't cover. Gai can dodge and move in the air, he has kicked the air in the 6th gate and the eight, just like Lee kicked the air in order to attack Gaara from different angles:


*Spoiler*: __ 








If they are both in the air, forcefully at a very close distance, Gai could dodge, but Tsunade wouldn't and the blast would hit her instead. And about Tsunade's smashy tactics, well, for me that's a different maneuver from the one i was debating (Gai hitting her), because she will be in the air and won't be able to hit the ground.



> I agree, but in situations where Tsunade is at risk of being hit Katsuyu could turn to alternative methods. Tsunade could channel harmful medical chakra through her, for example. Or divisions could surround Gai and try to reform around him to trap or at least distract him.



I meant if Katsuyu threw an huge acid blast, Gai can make Tsunade eat that and kick her away to keep her in the air, i mean, all the scenario is with Gai being in the air, as his opponents are sent flying with every hit, and Katsuyu would be on the floor.



> Well, I disagree with your assertion that C4/7th gate would out-speed her near instantaneous regeneration, but let's leave that argument for another time.


​
Her regeneration took 4/5 panels to heal a stab wound. If Kishimoto desired to make it near instantaneous, he would've made it in one panel and make Madara comment on it. Not even Juudara's regeneration is that fast to be called near instantaneous, though. C4 dissintegrated Sasuke's body completely in less panels, and Gai, well, can punch way faster than that. But yeah, let's leave this one to another time, i am a bit lazy today .


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## Jad (Apr 12, 2014)

Shit, Lee was kicking in the air. How come I never bothered to take notice.........

Makes sense how he was able to continuously kick Gaara in the air to perform Omote Renge. [1st Gate]

And Ura Renge requires him to kick the air, otherwise if he kicked Gaara whilst in the air at the opposite end of the room. Lee wouldn't have made it in time to connect again [play ping-pong with him], as gravity would have made him fall on the ground too slowly.....


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2014)

Jad said:


> Shit, Lee was kicking in the air. How come I never bothered to take notice.........
> 
> Makes sense how he was able to continuously kick Gaara in the air to perform Omote Renge. [1st Gate]



Gai in the 6th gate did as well, when he kicked Kisame mid-air and followed him up to use MP. I always had in mind that Gai somehow moved in the air, not knowing the method, but i debated about this in a thread of Gai vs Onoki.

However, now that Madara said it was kicking the air, it makes sense.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 12, 2014)

> I'm sorry, but that's a strategy that would only be used in the Konoha Colosseum, but never in the actual manga. That style of fighting would be so out of character for Tsunade who's just smashy smashy the majority of the time.





_I'm sorry_, but there is no legitimate reason as to why she _wouldn't_ devise strategies revolving around the signature summons she is most known for her prolific use of.

_"She's just smashy smashy the majority of the time"_ is nothing but the completely arbitrary trash of somebody that's too lazy too lazy to even put things into perspective and decides to make the tier 5 intelligence _freaking Slug_ Princess (not earth-shattering, not healing princess people) stupid instead.

The argument becomes even more pitiful when you consider that Tsunade hasn't been in action without bringing out Katsuyu at some point for a myriad of purposes. The first time Tsunade went "smashy smashy" she was hemophobic and _couldn't_ summon, but she chose to summon immediately after re-entering combat post-hemophobia; the second time Tsunade went "smashy smashy" was when she was against a defense that Katsuyu couldn't penetrate and that might whip out Mokuton were the slug to make an appearance given the ramifications of Ohnoki manifesting a giant golem; every other time Tsunade has done something Katsuyu has been brought out first.

So even outside of what should be sheer *common sense*, Tsunade isn't just smashy smashy the majority of the time like you claim, and she's had legitimate reasons not to bring out the slug on those occasions where she has gone "smashy smashy". That those instances are representative of Tsunade's IC actions the majority of the time is a perpetuated board-myth and nothing more.



LostSelf said:


> I don't know man. But the excuse i am not buying is Gai dying without using it just because a Kakashi who doesn't exists in this matchup isn't here.



If Kakashi isn't here then Gai's specified condition for unlocking the final gate isn't here. That's pretty much it.



> Obito was there, and he could've warped Madara away in any case.



Obito was pre-occupied by Naruto and Kakashi; not that it matters when Naruto could have Chakra-charged Kakashi again and warped Gai and Bee into boxy la-la land.



> Please elaborate with actual proofs of Tsunade showing something that let's her react to Gai..



Please elaborate with actual proofs of Gai being able to continuously move faster than Tsunade can react?


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## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Apr 12, 2014)

why the fuck is this thread still opened?!

this is such an unbalanced match-up 

4th gated gai vs tsunade should arguably be a good match up. anything above 4th gate is overkill for tsunade.

starting from gates 5 - 7 gai has one shot kill techniques that tsunade cannot avoid or counter. reverse lotus, morning peacock, and hirudora. and considering how he's a master of the gates, he can presumably use these techniques consecutively to ensure her death, if she manages to survive either of them the first time.


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## Bringer (Apr 12, 2014)

Out of curiosity, does anybody here think Tsunade can tank her own punches? I personally think she can withstand what she can dish out, which leads me to believe she can also withstand seventh gate Gai's blows.


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> If Kakashi isn't here then Gai's specified condition for unlocking the final gate isn't here. That's pretty much it.



Come on man, do you think that Gai will _choose_ to die just because Kakashi isn't there? This is a horrible excuse. Gai is not going to stay below the eight gate if he knows he is going to die, that would be beyond stupid of _his_ part and Tsunade cannot beat him up for Gai to be unable to use it, just like Madara did.



> Obito was pre-occupied by Naruto and Kakashi; not that it matters when Naruto could have Chakra-charged Kakashi again and warped Gai and Bee into boxy la-la land.



But Madara would've been regenerated, again. 



> Please elaborate with actual proofs of Gai being able to continuously move faster than Tsunade can react?



Forcing Juudara to jump backwards when SM Minato couldn't, having supersonic punches, punching, while tied and beaten up before Madara could even react and finish a mid-swing, reacting to Mid-Kamui warping and RM Naruto's super speed.

Gai can throw 5 punches before Tsunade can throw one. Where are Tsunade's non-existen reaction and striking speed feats that let's her touch Gai? I remember you said she could hit Ei just guessing where he would attack, as unlikely as that seemed, it's not possible here at all when your opponent can punch 10 times faster than you, and that's being generous.



BringerOfChaos said:


> Out of curiosity, does anybody here think Tsunade can tank her own punches? I personally think she can withstand what she can dish out, which leads me to believe she can also withstand seventh gate Gai's blows.



Tsunade doesn't have Susano'o level of durability. Not even the Raikage has it.


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## Santoryu (Apr 12, 2014)

Rick Muthafkn Martin said:


> why the fuck is this thread still opened?!
> 
> this is such an unbalanced match-up



It's not often I agree with you, but you have a point; this matchup is extremely embarrassing for Tsunade-even with the seventh gate we saw what Gai achieved against Rikkudo-Madara. 


Thread should have been locked a while back.


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## Doge (Apr 12, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> It's not often I agree with you, but you have a point; this matchup is extremely embarrassing for Tsunade-even with the seventh gate we saw what Gai achieved against Rikkudo-Madara.
> 
> 
> Thread should have been locked a while back.



Tsunade wankers say she should dominate anyways despite the fact she chooses to let everyone die by being lazy by refusing to actually try in the manga.


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## Shinryu (Apr 12, 2014)

Why do people keep forgetting Tsunade can screw up your neural impulses with a finger tap?

She does this to Gai then knocks his head off.


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## iJutsu (Apr 12, 2014)

In the mind of Tsunade fans: Imperfect Edo Madara = Alive full power Rinnegan Madara = Juubi jin Madara.

That's all there is to it.


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## Shinryu (Apr 12, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> In the mind of Tsunade fans: Imperfect Edo Madara = Alive full power Rinnegan Madara = Juubi jin Madara.
> 
> That's all there is to it.



Well she cant win against 8th gate Gai obviously but 7th gate gai she can if he cant even kill Kisame with a single afternoon tiger.


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## RBL (Apr 12, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Well she cant win against 8th gate Gai obviously but 7th gate gai she can if he cant even kill Kisame with a single afternoon tiger.


First of all gai was not even trying to kill kisame, then hirudora didn't hit him directly, gai had to use hirudora in order to kill the chakra sharks, not because he wanted to kill kisame .


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## Shinryu (Apr 12, 2014)

Brandon Lee said:


> First of all gai was not even trying to kill kisame, then hirudora didn't hit him directly, gai had to use hirudora in order to kill the chakra sharks, not because he wanted to kill kisame .



Regardless Tsunade can screw his taijutsu by just messing up his neural impulses.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 12, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Why do people keep forgetting Tsunade can screw up your neural impulses with a finger tap?
> 
> She does this to Gai then knocks his head off.



because she has to tap his brain stem which is located in his poterior....wait, U think she can demonstrably touch Gai at all


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2014)

I always saw Kisame as very durable, the guy took a kick of RM Naruto's full movement speed, fast enough to be considered a yellow flash, and strong enough to break his own ankle colliding with a wall.

If we compare this to what characters suffered while they clashed against the floor, just like Danzo surviving a Susano'o punch that put him through a bridge, Madara falling at high speeds destroying a lot of boulders like nothing, etc. Then we can likely see how hard Naruto should've hit Kisame with tremendous force, but the man kept running, albeit with pain, but that didn't hinder him too much.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 13, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> This depends on how well she can take Gai's attacks. Considering they are called super sonic, Tsunade might not be able to do it. Look at Gaara, for example, he only could move to try to block when Lee stopped attacking him, Kisame as well, and since Kisame might not be as resilent as her, the man is very durable.



Don't compare Part I Gaara's durability to Tsunade's. The latter's durability is infinitely higher than the former's. I stress, a tap of the finger is all she needs. She can press her finger down on her leg while being smacked if she absolutely has to. Gai cannot prevent that.





> This is the problem, her acid is huge, but it's not a concentrated blast coming in one direction, it's spread in diferent directions as shown when she attacked Manda with it. Someone as small as Gai compared to the acid would not need to outrun it, just move to a place where part of the acid doesn't cover. Gai can dodge and move in the air, he has kicked the air in the 6th gate and the eight, just like Lee kicked the air in order to attack Gaara from different angles:



That would be nearly impossible to do. It would actually be easier for Gai to just jump or speed himself out of the acid's range than try to outright dodge it. As you said, the acid is not particularly accurate and thus its form is not clearly defined, making its attack direction impossible to predict or anticipate. Even if he did manage to dodge the worst of the acid he is still at high risk of being splashed or grazed by smaller splashes that are harder to see and dodge.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I doubt Katsuyu is going to fire acid whenever Tsunade is actually prone to being hit, though. I meant that they would attack him whenever he's actually open to being hit, such as when he is immobile in mid-air when using Asa Kujaku, or when he jumps into the air and uses Hirudora at a range, or when he collapses of exhaustion temporarily after over-usage of the gates.



> Her regeneration took 4/5 panels to heal a stab wound. If Kishimoto desired to make it near instantaneous, he would've made it in one panel and make Madara comment on it. Not even Juudara's regeneration is that fast to be called near instantaneous, though. C4 dissintegrated Sasuke's body completely in less panels, and Gai, well, can punch way faster than that. But yeah, let's leave this one to another time, i am a bit lazy today .



Uhh, no it didn't. The healing aura emanating from her _entire body_ shows that she was regenerating from the damage she sustained from being thrown into a boulder with such force that it _exploded_. She had bruises all over her body, so it only makes sense that they were being healed. The stab wound injury is almost _fully healed_ by the time she emerges from the smoke.​​


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## FlamingRain (Apr 13, 2014)

Tsunade doesn't have a "healing aura". The rapidness of her regeneration is just creating steam (which lingers) over any scrapes she has as she returns to her unscathed state.

Additionally, panels don't all take up equal (or even similar) amounts of time, meaning that trying to approximate the amount of time taken for two events based on the number of panels that go by in the meantime is inaccurate as mess anyways.



LostSelf said:


> Come on man, do you think that Gai will _choose_ to die just because Kakashi isn't there?



He might die for what he believes in, yes.



> But Madara would've been regenerated, again.



And it'd be irrelevant since Bee could seal him.



> Forcing Juudara to jump backwards when SM Minato couldn't,



-is simply Madara's underestimation of Gai at work; he could've put Gai underground just as hastily as he did Minato if he actually felt like it, as was illustrated in him countering Gai's attempt at _Hirudora_. He could have waited to retaliate against Minato, too, but it wouldn't take away the fact that he was capable of doing it immediately.



> having supersonic punches, punching, while tied and beaten up before Madara could even react and finish a mid-swing, reacting to Mid-Kamui warping and RM Naruto's super speed.



Being supersonic doesn't equate to being faster than Tsunade can track, and the only reason Madara didn't react is because he was looking at Naruto and not Gai.

Freaking Konan could react mid-_Kamui_ so I'm not going to buy that reacting to it translates into speedblitzing Tsunade, and if by super speed you mean the speed that eclipses Ay's then Naruto wasn't abusing his super speeds outside of when he slapped away the _Bijūdamas_ and Gai didn't even know what that was until Naruto stopped.



> Gai can throw 5 punches before Tsunade can throw one.



And?

I can think of at least three ways for Tsunade to end Gai without throwing a punch off the top of my head:

_*1.)*_ "Guard" with _Ranshinshō_ in play during a flurry of Gai's blows.
_*2.)*_ Any Katsuyu division blindsiding with _Zesshi Nensan_.
_*3.)*_ _Shosen_ overdose causing Gai to pass out the moment he comes into contact with Katsuyu or any of her multiplicity of clones.

That being said, a punch or kick could still be landed on an inattentive Gai after playing possum or a distracted Gai through Katsuyu acting as a gigantic distraction or mass of distractions.

Now, not a single one of those possibilities is truly reliant upon speed, so I shouldn't see Gai's speed being cited as justification for any of them not working unless Gai is actually a sensor with full knowledge from the get-go (and he isn't) because Gai isn't dodging what he doesn't know is coming; and moreover, considering that each and every one of those techniques is guaranteed incapacitation if not death, Gai wouldn't even have the opportunity to realize that the match is a lost cause and unlock the eight gate.



> Tsunade doesn't have Susano'o level of durability. Not even the Raikage has it.



I think he's accounting for her regeneration ability.


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## LostSelf (Apr 13, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade doesn't have a "healing aura". The rapidness of her regeneration is just creating steam (which lingers) over any scrapes she has as she returns to her unscathed state.
> 
> Additionally, panels don't all take up equal (or even similar) amounts of time, meaning that trying to approximate the amount of time taken for two events based on the number of panels that go by in the meantime is inaccurate as mess anyways.



We only know something, that if it were instantaneous, Kishimoto would've noted it. Panels might not equal an approximate amount of time but i am sure taking five panels to heal is nto instantaneous.



> He might die for what he believes in, yes.



Ahm, no. If he is gonna die still, against his own enemy he will take her with him. This "Kakashi or Lee being there" is mere speculation just because Gai (Kishimoto) waited this long to use it.


When Gai fought Kisame in base and this wasn't enough, he used MP.
When Gai tried to stop all the sharks to get the scrolls with MP and this wasn't enough, he used Hirudora.
When Gai used Hirudora against Juudara and it wasn't enough, he used Evening Elephant.
And when Evening Elephant wasn't enough, he used Nigh Guy.

Gai has always went further in order to defeat his opponents, and that's an IC behavior he has had since his very first battle, bringing Kakashi here is like saying that Naruto will never beat Sakura in a BD match just because they are friends. It doesn't fit at all, and even then, it's going against Gai's IC fighting style.



> And it'd be irrelevant since Bee could seal him.



No, he wouldn't. Obito could've been keeping Madara out between dimensions, Gai would've been probably trolled and dead. Also, that is assuming that Gai _could've_ used the eight gates, because Madara could've left him in bad shape before he decided to use it. Tsunade here cannot.



> -is simply Madara's underestimation of Gai at work; he could've put Gai underground just as hastily as he did Minato if he actually felt like it, as was illustrated in him countering Gai's attempt at _Hirudora_. He could have waited to retaliate against Minato, too, but it wouldn't take away the fact that he was capable of doing it immediately.



Madara's face says otherwise.



> Being supersonic doesn't equate to being faster than Tsunade can track, and the only reason Madara didn't react is because he was looking at Naruto and not Gai.



Tsunade doesn't have super sonic reflexes feat unless you can provide one, and even if she does, she doesn't have super sonic movement, so even if she can see Gai (something she hasn't shown doing), she is not moving in time. Gai was behind Naruto, there is no way that Madara couldn't have seen that huge ass tiger.



> Freaking Konan could react mid-_Kamui_ so I'm not going to buy that reacting to it translates into speedblitzing Tsunade, and if by super speed you mean the speed that eclipses Ay's then Naruto wasn't abusing his super speeds outside of when he slapped away the _Bijūdamas_ and Gai didn't even know what that was until Naruto stopped.



Nobody is talking about Kamui's speed, i am talking about RM Naruto's speed, you can say Naruto was not going at speeds that eclipses Ei, but i bet he was going way faster than Tsunade, unless we assume he was going slow when he was trying to hit a man that can instantly phase. Naruto didn't stop, he was in mid-air.




> And?
> 
> I can think of at least three ways for Tsunade to end Gai without throwing a punch off the top of my head:



Tenten can kill Itachi slashing his throat.



> _*1.)*_ "Guard" with _Ranshinshō_ in play during a flurry of Gai's blows.



Guard? For that she needs to react, for me to buy that you should bring me proofs of Tsunade having enough reflexes to react to Gai in gates. Kisame couldn't guard, and guarding will not stop Tsunade from going flying. Oh, and to guards she needs to know where Gai is gonna hit her, and she is not reacting to his punches.



> _*2.)*_ Any Katsuyu division blindsiding with _Zesshi Nensan_.



Katsuyu's reaction and speed feats with acid? Katsuyu is gonna be blindsided and blitzed worse than Tsunade will.



> _*3.)*_ _Shosen_ overdose causing Gai to pass out the moment he comes into contact with Katsuyu or any of her multiplicity of clones.



You wonder why she never did that to Orochimaru and Madara in battle. And i thought she needs to touch Gai for that.



> That being said, a punch or kick could still be landed on an inattentive Gai after playing possum or a distracted Gai through Katsuyu acting as a gigantic distraction or mass of distractions.



Nor Tsunade or Katsuyu can bother Gai's movement enough to put him between them, Gai can put himself behind Tsunade any time he wants, and thus, have a clear vision of what's happening. And that is assuming Katsuyu, a slug, is as fast and reflexive. 



> Now, not a single one of those possibilities is truly reliant upon speed, so I shouldn't see Gai's speed being cited as justification for any of them not working unless Gai is actually a sensor with full knowledge from the get-go (and he isn't) because Gai isn't dodging what he doesn't know is coming; and moreover, considering that each and every one of those techniques is guaranteed incapacitation if not death, Gai wouldn't even have the opportunity to realize that the match is a lost cause and unlock the eight gate


.

Ahm it's surely reliant upon reflexes, Katsuyu cannot target what she can't see, Katsuyu won't risk Tsunade's health because she is not inmune to acid. How do you know he doesn't know about Katsuyu? And are we assuming Tsunade will have Katsuyu out before Gai goes gates?

I think Katsuyu should see the target to know where to aim, something she will do only when Gai is not moving.

I am pretty sure that Gai can hit Tsunade with MP and Hirudora and figure out she won't die by it before a slug with no speed and reaction feats and a girl worlds below him in speed touches him. And this is, giving Tsunade Katsuyu out _and_ Byakugo. Because she used it against Madara, but didn't use it against Orochimaru and Kabuto even knowing that Jiraiya might've been in danger.



> I think he's accounting for her regeneration ability.



If he means that, she can "take it" depending on where she is hit.


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## LostSelf (Apr 13, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Don't compare Part I Gaara's durability to Tsunade's. The latter's durability is infinitely higher than the former's. I stress, a tap of the finger is all she needs. She can press her finger down on her leg while being smacked if she absolutely has to. Gai cannot prevent that.​




We should note that Gai is not Lee, Gai in 7th gate and part 1 Lee in 4 gates are worlds apart. I disagree with Tsunade touching Gated Gai's hits that have been called super sonic. Gai won't leave his leg in her body, he is going to hit and she is going to fly.





> That would be nearly impossible to do. It would actually be easier for Gai to just jump or speed himself out of the acid's range than try to outright dodge it. As you said, the acid is not particularly accurate and thus its form is not clearly defined, making its attack direction impossible to predict or anticipate. Even if he did manage to dodge the worst of the acid he is still at high risk of being splashed or grazed by smaller splashes that are harder to see and dodge.



But the acid is so big that you can easily determine where parts of it are not going to land, but it's not like Gai cannot outrun it either.



> I doubt Katsuyu is going to fire acid whenever Tsunade is actually prone to being hit, though. I meant that they would attack him whenever he's actually open to being hit, such as when he is immobile in mid-air when using Asa Kujaku, or when he jumps into the air and uses Hirudora at a range, or when he collapses of exhaustion temporarily after over-usage of the gates.



That's the thing,  Gai and Tsunade will almost always be close to each other, therefore firing acid is not the most safe answer unless Katsuyu wants to risk hitting Tsunade, something she won't because she cares deeply for her. Inmobile in mid air while using Asa Kujaku sounds good though, but if Gai knows she can use acid beforehand, he might not risk himself too much. Also, Gai doesn't collapse of exhaustion anymore. He never collapsed from exhaustion with Asa Kujaku in the 6th gate, and in the 7th he used both, Asa Kujaku and Hirudora.

That was before the war, in the war he got a huge stamina boost, enough to go 7th gates, use Hirudora and inmediately going eight gates spamming Evenin Elephant one Night Guy, considering his durability doesn't increase with gates, the strain would be bigger by a lot and spamming an attack more straining than Hirudora makes me doubt that using one MP and one Hirudora will make him collapse.



> Uhh, no it didn't. The healing aura emanating from her _entire body_ shows that she was regenerating from the damage she sustained from being thrown into a boulder with such force that it _exploded_. She had bruises all over her body, so it only makes sense that they were being healed. The stab wound injury is almost _fully healed_ by the time she emerges from the smoke.


​
It's not that way, by the time Tsunade healed that stab wound, 11 panels passed because Byakugo begins to heal right away, therefore the wound began to heal here when she pulled the blade out of her body, that's considerable time when you meet against forces like C4 and Gai's stricking speed.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 13, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> We only know something, that if it were instantaneous, Kishimoto would've noted it.



Oh is this what you guys were talking about?

In that case check the bolded in Kishi's notes below:



> *Spoiler*: _Databook 2 - Souzou Saisei_
> 
> 
> 
> ...







> If he is gonna die still, against his own enemy he will take her with him. This "Kakashi or Lee being there" is mere speculation just because Gai (Kishimoto) waited this long to use it.



Or, Gai is one of those guys that will simply applaud his adversary's power as he goes out or something like that.

The rule Gai maintains is explicitly noted, it isn't mere speculation. The final gate will only be opened whenever Gai has something precious to him that he would even die to protect. It isn't speculation and it isn't because of Kishi waiting- it's because the canonical conditions had yet to be met.

Kakashi isn't here, Lee isn't here, and the green beast himself would die either way, meaning that he wouldn't really be protecting anything by unlocking the final gate here, and as such, he won't open it.

The only thing that doesn't fit in with the narrative is the "if I'm going down I'm taking you with me" notion that seems to have suddenly gained popularity around here for whatever reason in spite of the fact that no such mentality has been explored and it'd be excluded by the aforementioned rule even if it had.



> Obito could've been keeping Madara out between dimensions, Gai would've been probably trolled and dead.



Such tactics could have been circumvented by Kakashi's efforts with his own _Kamui_, and you've neglected addressing the fact that Obito's attention was directed elsewhere at the time.

So no, that excuse still doesn't fly.



> Madara's face says otherwise.



How exactly? Madara's expression is telling of nothing but underestimation.



> Tsunade doesn't have super sonic reflexes feat unless you can provide one, and even if she does, she doesn't have super sonic movement.



Following Ay and Naruto's (hypersonic) speeds when they interrupted the Jinchūriki entering the war is one, kicking under Madara's guard right out of Mabui's _Tensō no Jutsu_ is another, and one much better than anything Kisame has done even in person, let alone at 30% in a puppet; both events involved Tsunade maneuvering about in some way.

So what we should actually be saying is that supersonic speeds aren't sufficient to blitz Tsunade unless you can provide evidence to the contrary. Good luck with that.



> Gai was behind Naruto, there is no way that Madara couldn't have seen that huge ass tiger.



Gai was on top of a more-than-hundred-meter-high Tailed Beast whilst Naruto was on the ground, and peripheral vision fades while someone is in focus on something specific; so yes there is a way Madara couldn't have seen that tiger which started off much smaller and only got huge once it was already at _Susano'o's_ position.



> Nobody is talking about Kamui's speed,



You said "mid-_Kamui_", so _you were_.



> i am talking about RM Naruto's speed, you can say Naruto was not going at speeds that eclipses Ei, but i bet he was going way faster than Tsunade, unless we assume he was going slow when he was trying to hit a man that can instantly phase. Naruto didn't stop, he was in mid-air.



If Naruto wasn't going at speeds that eclipsed Ay's then he wasn't going at speeds Tsunade couldn't track, because Tsunade was following Naruto's exchange with Ay until the very last moment where all she saw was a yellow flash.

And yes Naruto did stop; look at the page: there is a panel of Naruto standing right in front of the senseis after landing and only in the panel following that does Gai recognize that it was Naruto.



> Tenten can kill Itachi slashing his throat.



...Okay? What does this have to do with anything?



> Guard? For that she needs to react, for me to buy that you should bring me proofs of Tsunade having enough reflexes to react to Gai in gates. Kisame couldn't guard, and guarding will not stop Tsunade from going flying.



Shōten Kisame was able to perform more motion in his attempt to slash Gai than what would have been required to simply guard, meaning that if he had tried to guard as opposed to interrupting Gai with the slash he could have. She'd have more than enough of an opportunity to do it during something like _Asakujaku_ especially.

Tsunade going flying is inconsequential, though her vastly superior strength should stop that from happening anyway.



> Katsuyu's reaction and speed feats with acid?



She doesn't need any because Gai will not see it coming in such an instance; Gai wouldn't be trying to evade what he doesn't know is coming, rendering his potential speed unimportant.



> You wonder why she never did that to Orochimaru and Madara in battle.



Not really; it's not hard to deduce why.

She was out of shape and exhausted against Orochimaru while a single _Shosen_ was established to be Chakra intensive- she wasn't going to go and use it in boss summon quantities in her condition. Madara responds to giant creatures with Mokuton techniques, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, and if you mean against the clones they were all coated in _Susano'o_ meaning the technique wouldn't ever actually be in contact with the opponents.



> And i thought she needs to touch Gai for that.



Or needs Gai to touch her...

Gai can't repeatedly get to Tsunade without touching Katsuyu given how much space the slug conglomerate takes up. And yes, repeatedly, because if he isn't constantly retreating out of melee range Tsunade is just going to hit him herself at some point or another.



> Ahm it's surely reliant upon reflexes.



No, it isn't. At all. Now it looks like you're outright ignoring what I'm actually saying.

Katsuyu can be at any spot on the field at any given point in time by virtue of her multiplicity, and Tsunade can trick him into thinking she's down. Gai does _not_ have a 360 degree field of vision, Gai is _not_ a sensor, Gai cannot dodge what he does not see is coming his way completely irregardless of how fast he has the potential to move, because he won't know to move (let alone in which direction) in the first place.



> Katsuyu won't risk Tsunade's health because she is not inmune to acid.



She doesn't need to, but she will if instructed to by Tsunade.



> How do you know he doesn't know about Katsuyu?



There are no logical reasons for nor implications of Gai knowing what Katsuyu can do, so I'm going to assume that he doesn't by default.



> And are we assuming Tsunade will have Katsuyu out before Gai goes gates?



Not necessarily. She might, but she doesn't need to. Gai can't prevent her from summoning given her monstrous vitality and strength.



> I think Katsuyu should see the target to know where to aim, something she will do only when Gai is not moving.



Alright, but this doesn't contest anything I've said thus far.



> I am pretty sure that Gai can hit Tsunade with MP and Hirudora and figure out she won't die by it before a slug with no speed and reaction feats and a girl worlds below him in speed touches him.



I am pretty sure he won't consider the final gate before she touches him, if at all.



> And this is, giving Tsunade Katsuyu out _and_ Byakugo. Because she used it against Madara, but didn't use it against Orochimaru and Kabuto even knowing that Jiraiya might've been in danger.



Tsunade was paralyzed by her hemophobia when Jiraiya was in danger. She didn't use it because she wasn't doing anything to begin with. When she re-entered the battle she initiated _Sōzō Saisei_ and summoned Katsuyu, keeping it up until Orochimaru fled.


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## Mithos (Apr 14, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> [*]Gai has been using hirudora throughout the war, seemingly without any repercussions. Even if Tsunade can survive one direct hit, it probably wouldn't be the last one she'd see from him.
> [/LIST]



Gai has been healed/had his chakra restored multiple times throughout the war. He was healed by Shizune, Naruto's Kyuubi shroud, and most likely when Tsunade and Sakura summoned 1/10 Katsuyu to be "the alliance's foothold." 

When he tried Hirudora against Madara, he was temporarily downed. The fact that he has also been activating and then deactivating the Gates throughout the war also suggest he cannot spam MP or AT. We've never seen him use them in rapid succession. And we've seen him severely weakened (after he used MP and AT in short succession against Kisame he couldn't even activate the Gates) and downed (against Madara) on a couple occasions. Other occasions include him using a technique and then deactivating the Gates. 

Throwing out a couple Hirudoras or Morning Peacocks is a sure way to get himself killed. Neither of those attacks infict damage that Tsunade hasn't healed. Even if she's downed for a little while while she regenerates, she'll get back up. But Gai will be in trouble after using such strenous techniques so fast.


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## Jad (Apr 15, 2014)

This is why it's a little bit fustrating to debate Tsunade fans. This is the second time I've seen it come up.

Gai was only downed when he used Hirudora against Juubidara because, Juubidara collapsed the blast around Gai and himself, by hitting it with the _Truth Seeking Stick_. It was a failed blast, because if you look at the scan, it does not have that distinct oval shape with the ripples. However, that's what temporarily downed Gai.

We have seen, once again as I have stated, Rocky, LostSelf back me up on this, Gai use Hirudora against Madara in an exhausted, beaten and bloodied state. And right AFTER using it, he still did not go unconscious, he was even more tired though.

Also, what happened before Gai enganged Madara? He had to have Lee carry him! He was tired and exhausted. But he goes about 2 gates in to save Kakashi from the _Truth Seeking Ball_, 7th gate in to fight Juubidara, and for a _time_ of engagement, 8th Gate in. What was he doing in the 8th Gate? Collapsing after every use of his technique? No. In fact he was spamming his moves. In fact he quick got over the pain of the 8th Gates and its usage! 7th Gates is nothing. Look at how he didn't even go unconscious  after using Hirudora against Madara [see above example].

My response is, if he he is landing all these gates attacks, which you guys seem to agree he would be doing, since you defend the fact she can regenerate. To me that's game over. Because if he lands more than one Hirudora [even if you believe she can heal one] the other one is going to put even MORE damage on a bruised body. Third one? Even MORE. Second Hirudora should knock her out, since one Hirudora on a jacked up Hachibi Chakra Kisame, and a following (less than 6th Gate) punch did the job.

Not only that, if his hovering over her after one Morning Peacock usage, or one Hirudora, I don't see the problem of him whipping out a Kunia and cutting her supplies off. Since, ala. Gai hovering over Kisame clone and ala. Gai hovering over Kisame [second time] he will do so against a healing Tsunade.....Once he starts landing his hits, it goes downhill for Tsunade, since I don't see her getting up to even breathe. Hell Gai didn't even let Kisame move an inch. Same dealo' here. Oh well, at least opinions seem to be shifting....​


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## Orochibuto (Apr 15, 2014)

The fact that Tsunade fans are clinging on Gai NOT USING the 8th Gate, so she can win. Clearly shows how much of a rape this is, in favor of Gai.


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## Matty (Feb 12, 2016)

Gai wins, he goes gates and then punches her or kicks her


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## Veracity (Feb 13, 2016)

Why was this revived? This debate is typically 50/50 anyway.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2016)

6th Gated Gai is all that is needed, probably less than that actually, at most probably 5th Gated Gai.


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## Skaddix (Feb 13, 2016)

I doubt it honestly Tsuande is pretty good against Gai as a pure damage soak. Gai just has to keep punching which isnt a good strategy. I mean even in Seventh Gate, Gai's Daytime tiger didnt oneshot Kisame with the help off Kisame essentially buffing the shockwave with water so I am dubious if that is going to kill Tsunade. Now obviously with Eighth Gate he wins.


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

She can't react to him when gates get into the mix. He just punches her head off


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## Veracity (Feb 13, 2016)

Yeah kishi isn't ever writing a fight where Jounin Gai is defeating Hokage Tsunade that quick.


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## Skaddix (Feb 13, 2016)

Its not that when has Gai ever punched someone head off in this manga. I agree Gai can when with 8th Gate but based on what he has shown and Tsunade's regen...I dont see Gai putting her down.


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