# Edo Itachi vs  Sound 5, Hebi, Part 1 Kabuto, VOTE Naruto & VOTE Sasuke



## ARGUS (May 5, 2014)

*Edo Itachi vs Sound 5, Jugo, Suigetsu, Karin, Part 1 Kabuto, VOTE Naruto & VOTE Sasuke*

Location: Valley of the End 
Starting Distance: 10m
Intel: Full
Intent: To Kill 
Mindset: IC 
Restrictions: None

-Naruto and Sasuke are jus like how they were at the valley of the end 
-Kimimaro is healthy
-Team 2 has sealing tags

Who Wins? 
My Opinion: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi solos


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## tkpirate (May 5, 2014)

yeah Itachi will solo.


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## Ersa (May 5, 2014)

Edo Itachi stomps Hebi Sasuke then proceeds to reiatsu crush the rest into oblivion.


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## ARGUS (May 5, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Edo Itachi stomps Hebi Sasuke then proceeds to reiatsu crush the rest into oblivion.


there is no hebi sasuke,,, its vote sasuke with other members of hebi,,,


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## Mercurial (May 5, 2014)

Itachi solos, this would be even easier than solo the Rikudo menacing-Sannin


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## Legendary Itachi (May 5, 2014)

Sick Itachi schools them, Edo Itachi murders them in seconds no difficulty. 

Kimi is the strongest here yet Itachi is still tiers above him. I'd even argue Itachi can take this w/o MS.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2014)

Pretty sure base sound 5 with each of them using only 1 jutsu were more than enough to defeat edo itachi in the actual manga. 

itachi gets destroyed.


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## Ersa (May 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Pretty sure base sound 5 with each of them using only 1 jutsu were more than enough to defeat edo itachi in the actual manga.
> 
> itachi gets destroyed.


Does this mean the base sound 5 each of them using only 1 jutsu are enough to defeat Jman? Considering Edo Itachi may just be Jman's equal.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2014)

Do not go to irrelevant topics, please. Have they done that in the manga to itachi? Yes, they have. Simple as that. U_U
I do not see the OP mentioned Jman in his post, nor did I.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 5, 2014)

I'm sure Konohamaru can defeat Deva Pain now because Rasengan is proved to work on him. Oh and Jiraiya loses to Sakura since she has better strength than Tsunade who blows Jiraiya ass far away once.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2014)

That's sweet and all, but unlike Konohamaru, who would be facing Deva alone.

1- We saw a direct encounter between them, and we saw how itachi needed EMS Sasuke's help. 
2- He is not facing one opponent, but rather 11. Two of which are around part 1 kakashi's level. 
3- while he's facing Kabuto/Kimmimaro, Tayuya can use her genjutsu on him, and it's pretty much GG. 
since there won't be Sasuke her to save him.


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## BroKage (May 5, 2014)

These are all characters who basically shit themselves concerning Orochimaru and even living sick Itachi treated Oro like a toy.

Edo Itachi has infinite chakra and the speed to keep up with KCM Naruto, he can blitz all the opponents and he has the jutsus to deal with each of them. Even the more durable/regenerative among them have no answer for Amaterasu/Totsuka.

And to begin with, this team only has 4 potential ways to bypass Susanoo (headhunter mole jutsu/Mugen Onsa/Sawaribi no Mai/chakra chains), yet they're still sitting ducks even if they get past it. Thoroughly outclassed.



Hussain said:


> Pretty sure base sound 5 with each of them using only 1 jutsu were more than enough to defeat edo itachi in the actual manga.


The dude who controlled the first half of the 4th shinobi world war is probably exponentially more skilled in using jutsus than some chuunin lvl teens.


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (May 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Pretty sure base sound 5 with each of them using only 1 jutsu were more than enough to defeat edo itachi in the actual manga.
> 
> itachi gets destroyed.



Are you a retard? 

ck

I quess rasengan from Konohamaru and current Rikodou Naruto are also exactly as powerfull.

ck


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2014)

Restrict MS otherwise this is a horrible stomp.


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2014)

Living Itachi with MS restricted would solo this with low difficulty.

Unrestricted Edo Itachi stomps.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2014)

CaptainCommanderRenji said:


> Are you a retard?
> 
> ck
> 
> ...



pff, are you blind?  ck
4

your comparison is so (less than smart) that I am not sure how to explain it to you. ck
I am not talking about different people here, genius, I'm talking about the same people who were using the same jutsus ck

so, I guess Rikodou Naruto's Rassengan is not as powerful his own Rassengan? ck



BroKage said:


> T
> The dude who controlled the first half of the 4th shinobi world war is probably exponentially more skilled in using jutsus than some chuunin lvl teens.



controlled the first half of the war? :rofl
Never knew that Kimmimaro and chiyo were *that *powerful.  

- oh, too bad, those chuunin lvl already did this to him
4

so I'm not sure what are you talking about. I given you direct manga link, for God's sake


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## Ghost (May 5, 2014)

Itachi murders them all with Taijutsu except for Kimimaro which he actually has to try to kill.


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## Turrin (May 5, 2014)

Healthy Kimimaro may be able to give Itachi some difficulty by himself. His stat total in the DB is 30.5, though given the severity of his illness some stats may increase. Granted the same can be said about Itachi going from sick to Edo, but I don't think his illness was quite as severe as Kimi's; so if stats do not count illnesses I'd expect Kimi's overall ability to raise a bit more than Itachi's. Than Kimi has CS to increase his overall ability even higher than that. That's not to say Kimi is beating Edo Itachi or even giving him a high-diff fight, but he should at least provide Edo-Itachi with low diff or enough diff where Itachi will likely need at least one Mangekyo-Sharingan Tech to win. And really the same can be said about Kabuto. Only reason I bring this up, is because of the assertions of Itachi stomping, which the inclusion of Healthy-Kimi & Kabuto alone should dispel.

As for the actual match. Edo-Itachi is most likely going to loose here simply given how greatly out number he is and the excellent degree of team-work many of these shinobi have, such as S5,Team Hebi, and VOTE Sasuke/Naruto. With that said I expect Itachi to kill a a good bit of them before he goes down.


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## Ghost (May 5, 2014)

Classic Turrin.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> As for the actual match. Edo-Itachi is most likely going to loose here simply given how greatly out number he is and the excellent degree of team-work many of these shinobi have, such as S5,Team Hebi, and VOTE Sasuke/Naruto. With that said I expect Itachi to kill a a good bit of them before he goes down.



and don't forget the summoning jutsu 
1- Rashomon
2- Spiders
3- Frogs
4- Snakes
5- the 3 zombis


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Healthy Kimimaro may be able to give Itachi some difficulty



How ? Itachi mowed down a forest of Kimi's bones enhanced by Kabuto's sage chakra with 1 swipe of his stage 2 Susano'o.
Kimimaro won't cause Itachi any trouble. Itachi without MS would low dif him. With MS it is a stomp thats not even worth debating.




> by himself. His stat total in the DB is 30.5, though given the severity of his illness some stats may increase. Granted the same can be said about Itachi going from sick to Edo, but I don't think his illness was quite as severe as Kimi's;


Itachi's illness was far worse. Kmimiaro never coughed blood or shown any effects of his disease that hindered his performance.



> ] so if stats do not count illnesses I'd expect Kimi's overall ability to raise a bit more than Itachi's. Than Kimi has CS to increase his overall ability even higher than that. That's not to say Kimi is beating Edo Itachi or even giving him a high-diff fight, but he should at least provide Edo-Itachi with low diff or enough diff where Itachi will likely need at least one Mangekyo-Sharingan Tech to win. And really the same can be said about Kabuto. Only reason I bring this up, is because of the assertions of Itachi stomping, which the inclusion of Healthy-Kimi & Kabuto alone should dispel.


Kabuto's combat prowess is part 1 Naruto level. Itachi'd taijutsu blitz Kabuto and break his neck with 0 difficulty.



> As for the actual match*. Edo-Itachi is most likely going to loose here* simply given how greatly out number he is and the excellent degree of team-work many of these shinobi have, such as S5,Team Hebi, and VOTE Sasuke/Naruto. With that said I expect Itachi to kill a a good bit of them before he goes down.




Wow. Nominated for the worst serious post of 2014.


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## BroKage (May 5, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Itachi murders them all with Taijutsu except for Kimimaro which he actually has to try to kill.


Suigetsu is water, taijutsu can't solo.


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## Turrin (May 5, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Classic Turrin.


Classic Itachi-fan. No substance to their post, no logical discourse, no nothing.

@Grimmjow


*+*

*=*


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2014)

There's nothing "logical" about this group of fodder posing any real threat to Itachi in the first place.

He can quite literally just blitz, grab, and Genjutsu over and over until they are all knocked out.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 5, 2014)

Tayuya gets blitzed and eats a Kunai before she can bring out her flute, and unless you tell me 2 Fodder Tokubetsu Jonin > Itachi, Sound 4 is nothing but fodders to Base Itachi alone.

And Itachi won't be defeated by tricks which even Part 1 Shikamaru can overcome.


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## Joakim3 (May 5, 2014)

What the fuck is this 

The sound 4 are chakra crushed

Naruto & Sasuke are flat out blitzed and have a Kunai rammed through their skulls

Karin kills herself do to lust for the King 

Itachi lol genjustu's, Suigetsu, Kimimaro & Jugo as he'd need MS to put them down due to their durability.... and MS techs are too far beneath him 

Edo Itachi could comfortably due this with MS banned, as he doesn't have to worry about sickness of stamina issues


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## Trojan (May 5, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Tayuya gets blitzed before she can bring out her flute, unless you tell me 2 Fodder Tokubetsu Jonin > Itachi.
> 
> And Itachi won't be defeated by tricks which even Part 1 Shikamaru can overcome.



1- Why do you think that the other 10 will only stay and watch him? 
2- You do realize that this itachi is edo, right? Shika overcome Tayuya's genjutsu by pain.
Now tell me, does ET zombi feel pain? :ignoramus
(that with ignoring the fact that Shika used his shadow, as well, but does not matter now)


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## Turrin (May 5, 2014)

Yo, Hussain I came up with a new game. Try and edit Itachi-fan posts into actually logical statements. Here I'll go first:



Nikushimi said:


> There's nothing "logical" about this group of being fodder posing any real threat to Itachi in the first place.



Your turn Hussain.


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## Joakim3 (May 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How ? Itachi mowed down a forest of Kimi's bones enhanced by Kabuto's sage chakra with 1 swipe of his stage 2 Susano'o.
> Kimimaro won't cause Itachi any trouble. Itachi without MS would low dif him. With MS it is a stomp thats not even worth debating.



You do realize the bone forest Kabuto used was canonically smaller than the one Kimimaro used?

Not that it would matter as Itachi would just genjutsu rape Kimi first as he's the strongest person on his team by a good tier



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi's illness was far worse. Kmimiaro never coughed blood or shown any effects of his disease that hindered his performance.



Itachi wasn't hooked up to an IC unit with tubes running in through his body (that had to be moved through will power alone) and was actively coughing up blood during his fight with Lee & Gaara? If anything they were both massively foddered compared to there normal selves 

The fact that Jugo compared Hebi Sasuke to Kimimaro kinda emphasizes had he not been dying, he'd have ended Naruto, Lee & Gaara in 1 chapter

Just stating the facts rather than blind Itachi fanboyism










Itachi still solos..... but not with Taijutsu alone, he will need to use Genjustu in Kimi's case


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## Legendary Itachi (May 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> 1- Why do you think that the other 10 will only stay and watch him?
> 2- You do realize that this itachi is edo, right? Shika overcome Tayuya's genjutsu by pain.
> Now tell me, does ET zombi feel pain? :ignoramus
> (that with ignoring the fact that Shika used his shadow, as well, but does not matter now)



Why does it matter when most of them can't catch up Itachi's speed? 

Good luck to catch Itachi if her Genjutsu can't even stop Temari using fan. :ignoramus


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## Trojan (May 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yo, Hussain I came up with a new game. Try and edit Itachi-fan posts into actually logical statements. Here I'll go first:
> 
> Your turn Hussain.



Is the rule for this game is just crossing out some words, because I tried, and it still does not make sense. 

<<< I'll probably get banned because of this thread.  



Joakim3 said:


> You do realize the bone forest Kabuto used was canonically smaller than the one Kimimaro used?
> 
> Not that it would matter as Itachi would just genjutsu rape Kimi first as he's the strongest person on his team by a good tier
> 
> ...



Does genjutsu even work despite the CS gives other chakra to them? Sasuke even broke itachi's strongest genjutsu by that!

itachi will probably gets Genjutsu'd as in the manga though. @>@



Legendary Itachi said:


> Why does it matter when *most *of them can't catch up Itachi's speed?
> 
> Good luck to catch Itachi if her Genjutsu can't even stop Temari using fan. :ignoramus



Good, most =/= all, am I right?  
(Am I doing this right, Turrin? )
also, Karin's chain will be good as well. U_U

- Wind reflects the sound, that's why she was helpless against Temari. Is itachi faster than the sound now? 

anyway, I rest my case.  
I think the manga already gave us a picture of what would happen most likely in this case. U_U


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## Turrin (May 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Is the rule for this game is just crossing out some words, because I tried, and it still does not make sense.


You can add words, but try to add as few as possible. The person who can make the statements make sense with adding as few words and can generate the most sensible statements wins. Here's another example:



Legendary Itachi said:


> Why does it my post matter when most some of them can't catch up to Itachi's speed?





Hussain said:


> Good, most =/= all, am I right?
> (Am I doing this right, Turrin? )


Yeah we literally picked the same statement. I think you won that round though as you changed the least amount of words lol



Joakim3 said:


> What the fuck is this
> 
> The sound 4 chakra crushed
> 
> ...



Beat that Hussain.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Good, most =/= all, am I right?
> (Am I doing this right, Turrin? )
> also, Karin's chain will be good as well. U_U
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'd give some credit to Kimi and Kabuto's eyes, although their feet can do nothing to stop Itachi. 

Temari uses her fan when sound waves is traveling, Itachi has more than enough time to form a Bunshin or simply get away from those slow sound unless Temari's hand speed > Itachi's speed now. :ignoramus

I'd like to see how Kishi writes Itachi losing to some Chunin and Jonin level Shinobis.  

NVM, Karin and her almighty Uzumaki chains solos. :blindkarin


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## Rocky (May 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Classic Itachi-fan. No substance to their post, no logical discourse, no nothing.
> 
> @Grimmjow
> 
> ...



Itachi will just reflect Mugen Onsa back on to Tayuya with no difficulty like he did to Kurenai.


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## BroKage (May 5, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> You do realize the bone forest Kabuto used was canonically smaller than the one Kimimaro used?


Well of course, as Kimi's bone forest was basically a suicide attack. But part of it is Kishi's change of art style. Edo Kimimaro isn't sick and dying and has infinite chakra yet still even he uses a smaller bone forest:

This is similar to stuff like Manda being smaller in Part 2 than Part 1. Not really canon so much as Kishi being inconsistent with scale.


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## IchLiebe (May 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Itachi will just reflect Mugen Onsa back on to Tayuya with no difficulty like he did to Kurenai.



How? It's sound based.



BroKage said:


> Well of course, as Kimi's bone forest was basically a suicide attack. But part of it is Kishi's change of art style. Edo Kimimaro isn't sick and dying and has infinite chakra yet still even he uses a smaller bone forest:
> 
> This is similar to stuff like Manda being smaller in Part 2 than Part 1. Not really canon so much as Kishi being inconsistent with scale.



Don't try blaming it on Kishi changing his art. That's not the reason for a smaller one.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> How? It's sound based.



..So what.


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## BroKage (May 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Don't try blaming it on Kishi changing his art. That's not the reason for a smaller one.


If you can come up with a logical reason why Edo Kimimaro with perfect health and infinite chakra being powered up by Oro's white snake chakra uses a multiple times smaller bone forest than Kimimaro being crushed by sand and a minute away from dying, you have to be a genius.

Otherwise yeah I'm gonna blame it on Kishi being inconsistent and not making sense. Telling me not to "try" it is pretty silly as I already successfully did it. 

Though it still makes sense why _Kabuto_ didn't use a bigger bone forest; he was trying not to kill Sasuke.


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## IchLiebe (May 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ..So what.



How is he going to do it? He doesn't have the sound. With Kurenai, it was a genjutsu that didn't use sound or sight, it used handseals. If he could've reflected the genjutsu, he would've against Kabuto.



BroKage said:


> If you can come up with a logical reason why Edo Kimimaro with perfect health and infinite chakra being powered up by Oro's white snake chakra uses a multiple times smaller bone forest than Kimimaro being crushed by sand and a minute away from dying, you have to be a genius.
> 
> Otherwise yeah I'm gonna blame it on Kishi being inconsistent and not making sense. Telling me not to "try" it is pretty silly as I already successfully did it.
> 
> Though it still makes sense why _Kabuto_ didn't use a bigger bone forest; he was trying not to kill Sasuke.



He was buried 200m underground, a big one was necessary.


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## Turrin (May 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Itachi will just reflect Mugen Onsa back on to Tayuya with no difficulty like he did to Kurenai.


Than Sasuke copies Magen Tenchi Ten and reflects it back on Itachi. They get stuck in an infinite loop and while thats going on:


But:

*Spoiler*: __ 



I
*Spoiler*: __ 



hope
*Spoiler*: __ 



you
*Spoiler*: __ 



realize
*Spoiler*: __ 



I
*Spoiler*: __ 



wasn't
*Spoiler*: __ 



being 
*Spoiler*: __ 



serious



























Legendary Itachi said:


> NVM, Karin and her almighty Uzumaki chains standard punch solos.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 5, 2014)

Bar Kimimaro, Edo Itachi would utterly annihilate this group.


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## Ghost (May 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Classic Itachi-fan. No substance to their post, no logical discourse, no nothing.



You want detailed posts how Itachi sodomizes these jokers?



> Intel: Full
> *Intent: To Kill*



See this shit right here?


They can't even register Itachi's movement and jutsu execution speed. Itachi will effortlessly speed blitz and break everyone's neck who isn't named Kimimaro, Juugo or Suigetsu. After dispatching everyone else these three will get stuck in genjutsu. Itachi can pretty much make them kill each other.

Your Itachi hate is so fucking ridiculous. You can't actually think that these guys can put up a fight.


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## Turrin (May 5, 2014)

@saikyou

That was soooo detailed....


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Classic Itachi-fan. No substance to their post, no logical discourse, no nothing.
> 
> @Grimmjow
> 
> ...







Itachi'd stomp these chumps so hard that your forum activity would decrease significantly like the time Itachi put Nagato in his sake gourd. 

This isn't a match you'd want to see Turrin. Your weak heart can't handle it 




Joakim3 said:


> You do realize the bone forest Kabuto used was canonically smaller than the one Kimimaro used?


Yet stronger because of Kabuto's sage chakra.


> Itachi wasn't hooked up to an IC unit with tubes running in through his body (that had to be moved through will power alone) and was actively coughing up blood during his fight with Lee & Gaara? If anything they were both massively foddered compared to there normal selves


Irrelevant whether Itachi was hooked up to an IC unit or not. The severity of his illness was emphasized more than Kimmimaro's both visually or verbally.

Itachi literally keeled over and caughed blood during his fight. Kimi never did.




> The fact that Jugo compared Hebi Sasuke to Kimimaro kinda emphasizes had he not been dying, he'd have ended Naruto, Lee & Gaara in 1 chapter


If Kimi wasn't dying, he wouldn't die @ the end of the battle just like that and proceed to impale gaara through the face.




> Just stating the facts rather than blind Itachi fanboyism


Which is ironic given you are blinded by your own fanboyism.


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yo, Hussain I came up with a new game. Try and edit Itachi-fan posts into actually logical statements. Here I'll go first:
> 
> 
> 
> Your turn Hussain.



The only Jonin-level combatants Itachi is facing are Kimimaro and Kabuto, who sit right around or below part 1 Kakashi's level, who Itachi wiped out with Tsukuyomi. The rest are Chuunin-level; Karin was one-shotted by Danzou using only Taijutsu, Suigetsu and Jugo were both restrained by base Hebi Sasuke at the same time, and VotE Naruto and Sasuke are roughly on the same level as any of the Sound 4, who lost to shinobi from Naruto's class in part 1 and were pushed to their limits collectively by two Tokubetsu Jonin.

To all put this into perspective, Asuma singlehandedly wiped out a platoon of 10 Jonin, yet he was helpless against Itachi.

Your move, Turrin.


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## Rain (May 5, 2014)

Itachi beats these retards without moving. 

Look at what he did to Pt. 1 Sasuke's Chidori which is one of the strongest attacks these morons have.


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## Alex Payne (May 5, 2014)

I must congratulate OP. This thread instantly got such... mindblowing posts. Mindblowingly dumb and full of hate and spite. I am always trying to be civil and respectful towards people with different opinions. But this... is just... so fucking painful to read. Physically painful. No wonder I barely post anymore. Can't you people see how your posts look to other members reading this thread? Shit like  



> Pretty sure base sound 5 with each of them using only 1 jutsu were more than enough to defeat edo itachi in the actual manga.
> 
> itachi gets destroyed.





> As for the actual match. Edo-Itachi is most likely going to loose here simply given how greatly out number he is and the excellent degree of team-work many of these shinobi have, such as S5,Team Hebi, and VOTE Sasuke/Naruto. With that said I expect Itachi to kill a a good bit of them before he goes down.





> Yo, Hussain I came up with a new game. Try and edit Itachi-fan posts into actually logical statements. Here I'll go first



What the fuck is this? Don't you realize how stupid and hateful you look by posting this? There is no analysis, no comparisons, no logic, not even actual judgment is present. Pure bias. 

I must be losing it... I don't think you would listen or that it would change anything. Oh, well. Here we go.

1. There is no one here who can react even barely to Itachi's hand-seals. No one. Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke - two speedsters with 3-tomoe Sharingan couldn't. Don't you even fucking try to refute this. There is no one here with both physical and reaction speed as good as those two. Period. And those two barely defended themselves using insight/battle experience(in Kakashi's case... no one here is as good as he is, don't even try) and seal-less tech(in Sasuke's case). But hey! People here have seal-less techs to protect themselves! They do. Do they have the overall speed-level of Hebi Sasuke? They don't. Thus they are going to die. It is that simple. Kimimaro with his Kekkei Genkei defenses is one _possible_ exception. 

2. There is no one here who can keep up with Edo Itachi's physical speed. No one. It is easy, you see. Simply open manga chapters where Itachi+Nagato met Killer B+Naruto. And try to use you imagination. Replace Itachi with anyone from Team Scrub and imagine what changes. I can tell you what changes btw. They are going to get blitzed by either of Jins zero difficulty. Not even zero, negative difficulty. There wouldn't be any KCM Naruto taijutsu-clash, no Killer B's "behind you", no defending against 7-sword-style. They are going to get fodderized instantly. And if they aren't dead after that - Nagato finishes them off for being too much of a scrub to be paired with him. 

3. There is no one here with a proper genjutsu defense method good enough to combat Itachi. Aside for Sakon/Ukon partner method. Yeah, guy who dies first(alongside other Sound 4 members). They can't defend themselves from Itachi's genjutsu at all. Kabuto after getting all those crazy upgrades and Sage Mode chose to close his eyes. He knew that he wouldn't stand a chance with his eyes being vulnerable. Yeah, he was wrong. He didn't stand a chance even with eyes shut. Can you imagine Itachi choosing mindfuck/mindcontrol genjutsu over paralyze/KO ones? Imagine him making Kimi think that he is Orochimaru? Taking control of Jugo by "morphing" into Sasuke or simply mind-controlling his mindless state? Two of enemies top guys are very vulnerable to Itachi's main weapon. On top of others being simply defenseless.

4. But Itachi is facing a team! Numbers! Allow me to illustrate how superior numbers help when facing someone several tiers above: You don't die alone. I hope you understand that the difference between Asuma and those chunins are smaller than between Edo Itachi and Sound4/NaruSasu? And I also hope that you remember that Itachi's speed(both physical and casting) allows him to freely target anyone and dictate the fight's flow? He can engage and disengage freely, he can use clones freely in Edo state and also produce them too fast for anyone here to react. There wouldn't be any "team" here. Weaker ones are going to die instantly, others are going to be to busy trying to protect themselves and dying afterwards. There is simply no one here who can keep Itachi occupied for others to come up with team attacks. No one. Period. Genjutsu, Susano, basic ninjutsu blitz. Edo Itachi can freely chose his tools and spam them. Itachi will walk through people like you see in them samurai animes - with them dropping like flies with a puzzled expression.

5. Mateki: Mugen Onsa. Favorite "argument" of people that don't want to properly debate and discuss battles. Here is the thing about it. As you can see with both Shikamaru and Uchiha Bros - genjutsu creates illusion of you being bound by some crazy shit. You can't move = you can't use hand-seals? True? True. So Shikamaru used hand-seals beforehand and activated his ninjutsu(_Part 1 Shikamaru_ can react, throw kunai and prepare ninjutsu-escape... just food for thought). Which he used _after_ being affected. And Uchiha Bros used a seal-less ability... dojutsu. Are you getting my drift? People are physically bound. They still can use chakra-related abilities as long as physical movements aren't required. Take a guess what seal-less ability Itachi has that doesn't require physical movements. Starts with "S" ends with "rape". You do realize that Edo Itachi when affected by Mugen Onsa can simply use _Susano_, right? It is the same type of ability as Tsukuyomi that he used on-panel. That is assuming that he gets hit by it. And he ain't. Even if you for some strange reason believe that Tayuya's team is good enough to actually keep Itachi occupied while she charges her genjutsu - Itachi here has full knowledge. He knows that her ability is one of a few here close to at least irritation. What's stopping him from killing her at the start? What? Who? Itachi uses Suiton: Suigadan(don't forget location) and she is dead. Just like that. No one here is fast enough to react to that simple move.

P.S. I would understand Sick heavily restricted Itachi vs those chumps being a debatable and interesting match. But this... Edo Tensei Itachi with unlimited chakra and unaffected physical abilities. Vs a bunch of young scrubs paired with a couple of minions of someone Itachi beat when he wasn't old enough to buy alcohol. Numbers matter when there is someone strong enough to carry the team and keep their opponent properly occupied(Kakashi and Team Shikamaru vs Zombie Duo). Or when the team consists of people that aren't a complete nuisance to their enemy(Gokage vs Madara). Or when the numbers are truly overwhelming(3rd Raikage vs fodders).


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2014)

The only ones saying Itachi loses are Hussain, a known Itachi downplayer, and Turrin, who went mad a few months ago and now stoops to trolling with character images between egregious claims like the Raikage being unable to beat Sai, or Sage Jiraiya throwing around Bijuu Mode Naruto.

I'm pretty sure everyone else here is well aware of the fact that



			
				Rain said:
			
		

> Itachi beats these retards without moving.




EDIT: Itachi could quite literally just spam shuriken and wipe out everyone except for Kabuto, Kimimaro, and Suigetsu in an instant. Actually, Karin and Jugo would probably survive due to their regeneration, but they'd have to dig the throwing weapons out of their eye sockets. Not that their ability to see makes them any more or less productive in this battle.

EDIT#2: AP just ended the thread, btw.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The only ones saying Itachi loses are Hussain, a known Itachi downplayer, and Turrin, who went mad a few months ago and now stoops to trolling with character images between egregious claims like the Raikage being unable to beat Sai, or Sage Jiraiya throwing around Bijuu Mode Naruto.
> 
> I'm pretty sure everyone else here is well aware of the fact that
> .



How am I downplaying him to state what just happened in the manga exactly? 
using "they can't react because the different in speed" is extremely hypocritical thing to state imo
as I mentioned in another thread, and the issue with Tsunade.   

itachi's speed has never been shown to deal with 11 opponents to beg with, but, whatever, whatever...


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## Legendary Itachi (May 5, 2014)

You haven't explained how Konohamaru can defeat Deva Path with the same size of Rasengan. :ignoramus

SM Kabuto is tiers tiers and tiers above any other Sound Shinobi not named Orochimaru if that matters.


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How am I downplaying him to state what just happened in the manga exactly?



Please show me where in the manga Tayuya without Kabuto's Senjutsu was able to do anything to someone of Itachi's caliber.



> using "they can't react because the different in speed" is extremely hypocritical thing to state imo
> as I mentioned in another thread, and the issue with Tsunade.



They quite literally can't react to Itachi. How is that hypocritical?

Kakashi's Sharingan couldn't register his hand signs at all. He took Kakashi's back with a clone feint mid-Jutsu, and the only reason Kakashi didn't end up with a kunai in his spine is because he did the same thing right into Itachi's exploding clone.

You remember what happened to those three Uchiha police that came to intimidate Itachi over Shisui's death? Yeah, the same thing happens to everyone here not named Kimimaro.



> itachi's speed has never been shown to deal with 11 opponents to beg with, but, whatever, whatever...



Asuma dealt with that many and he's slower than Itachi.

Kimimaro schooled dozens of Naruto's clones without breaking a sweat.

The 3rd Raikage and 2nd Mizukage went to town on an entire division of the allied shinobi army.

The number doesn't matter when the difference in level is this big. The only way you could possibly kill him with such opponents is by throwing them at him continuously until he dies of exhaustion, which would require far more of them than are available here.



Legendary Itachi said:


> SM Kabuto is tiers tiers and tiers above any other Sound Shinobi not named Orochimaru if that matters.



Actually, SM Kabuto is "tiers tiers and tiers" above him, too.


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## Bonly (May 5, 2014)

But yeah damn near all of these characters reactions are to slow to stop Itachi from landing deadly blows when he goes into CQC and with his full arsenal available(which he won't need), I dare say this is a rape. Itachi wins every time.


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## jplaya2023 (May 5, 2014)

this is the worse thread of the year.

Itachi swipes totuska and one shots the battlefield. seriously wtf.


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## Turrin (May 5, 2014)

alex payne said:


> I
> What the fuck is this? Don't you realize how stupid and hateful you look by posting this? There is no analysis, no comparisons, no logic, not even actual judgment is present. Pure bias.
> .


You do realize all the comments I was quoting were ones with; no analysis, no comparison, no logic, etc... And all I was doing, was pointing out how ridiculous they were. Than you come around, and do the same thing with my posts; that's calling the kettle black sir. Actually you know what it's worse than calling the kettle black, because while I was going about it in a lighthearted way; your approach is far more malicious directly calling me "hateful" and "stupid". 

Now let's move on to the "bias" part. You want to know what's bias Alex? Coming into a thread and giving all the Itachi-fanboys a pass, when they have been doing by far the most one-line responses that lack substance, and simply focusing on attacking those who actually did put substance in their post initially and than simply decided to joke around when it became obvious that the thread was never going to have substance. You know why that's bias? Because it makes it extremely clear that your motivation is not to talk out against posts lacking substance, but only to talk out against posters who are not Itachi-fangasming.



> There is no one here who can react even barely to Itachi's hand-seals. No one. Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke - two speedsters with 3-tomoe Sharingan couldn't. Don't you even fucking try to refute this. There is no one here with both physical and reaction speed as good as those two.


I'd really love for you to prove that it's impossible Healthy Kimimaro w/ CS could have better reflexes than these two. Go on i'm waiting. 



> Period. And those two barely defended themselves using insight/battle experience(in Kakashi's case... no one here is as good as he is, don't even try) and seal-less tech(in Sasuke's case). But hey! People here have seal-less techs to protect themselves! They do. Do they have the overall speed-level of Hebi Sasuke? They don't. Thus they are going to die. It is that simple. Kimimaro with his Kekkei Genkei defenses is one possible exception.


Are you seriously suggesting that you need Hebi-Sasuke "level" speed and seal-less techniques to even fight Itachi, let alone fight Itachi 11v1 



> There is no one here who can keep up with Edo Itachi's physical speed. No one. It is easy, you see. Simply open manga chapters where Itachi+Nagato met Killer B+Naruto. And try to use you imagination. Replace Itachi with anyone from Team Scrub and imagine what changes. I can tell you what changes btw. They are going to get blitzed by either of Jins zero difficulty. Not even zero, negative difficulty. There wouldn't be any KCM Naruto taijutsu-clash, no Killer B's "behind you", no defending against 7-sword-style. They are going to get fodderized instantly. And if they aren't dead after that - Nagato finishes them off for being too much of a scrub to be paired with him.


Alex, you clearly treating an 11v1 match as a 1v1 match here, and therefore all of this is irrelevant to the actual topic.

But here I'll talk about Itachi's speed a bit here:

Suigetsu reacted in time to defend Sasuke from R1 Ei's attack. Like-wise Juugo also reacted in time to defend R1 Ei's attack. Kimi has a 4.5 in speed [could be even higher without illness] the same movement/reflex speed as Hebi-Sasuke. Of course he doesn't have Sharingan, but he has CS to enhance his speed, which was directly compared to the increase Three-Tome Sharingan grants, by Sasuke who has utilized both powers. Hebi-Sasuke has CS beyond Three-Tome, but he did not need CS to keep up with Itachi's movement-speed, only when Itachi utilized Amaterasu. P1-Kabuto was considered capable enough to fight P1 Kakashi on equal footing who has the same speed and three-tome sharingan as Hebi-Sasuke [and can in-fact increase his speed further by opening at least 1-Gate], who was able to keep up with Itachi; this would make zero sense if Kakashi could simply blitz Kabuto and be done with it. Given this Kabuto can obviously also compete with those of that higher-speed class to a certain extent. None of those four characters are going to be lol blitz'd by Itachi and at least Juugo, Kimi, and Suigetsu are completely capable of blocking Itachi's attempts to blitz other members of their team

Moving on Sasuke was confident Kari w/ sensing could track the movements of Killer-B quick enough that she could warn Team-Taka before V1 Killer-B completed his attacks, it therefore stands to reason she can track Itachi's movements as well, and thus warn her fellow teammates when Itachi is attempting to blindside them with a blitz, enhancing her teams ability to react even further. Sasuke's Sharingan would also help in keeping tracking of when Itachi is molding chakra to utilize Shunshin or channeling chakra to his legs to prep a blitz. Than there are of course Bushin tactics to mitigate the threat of a blitz even further.

Finally even if some does get hit by a physical bltiz, there is Karin, Kabuto, and in most case Juugo to heal. A blitz wouldn't even do anything to Suigetsu, Kimi given his blood line limit, or Naruto given his KN0 regeneration.

A blitz via physical speed is not doing anything here; point blank period.



> There is no one here with a proper genjutsu defense method good enough to combat Itachi. Aside for Sakon/Ukon partner method. Yeah, guy who dies first(alongside other Sound 4 members). They can't defend themselves from Itachi's genjutsu at all. Kabuto after getting all those crazy upgrades and Sage Mode chose to close his eyes. He knew that he wouldn't stand a chance with his eyes being vulnerable. Yeah, he was wrong. He didn't stand a chance even with eyes shut. Can you imagine Itachi choosing mindfuck/mindcontrol genjutsu over paralyze/KO ones? Imagine him making Kimi think that he is Orochimaru? Taking control of Jugo by "morphing" into Sasuke or simply mind-controlling his mindless state? Two of enemies top guys are very vulnerable to Itachi's main weapon. On top of others being simply defenseless..


You mention the partner method than proceed to ignore that the match is 11v1; one member of the team can break the other out of Genjtusu, or other members can interrupt the Genjutsu via attacking Itachi. Additionally there is Karin and Sasuke whose sensory abilities, which can both detect when Itachi gather's chakra to his eyes to cast a Dojutsu-Genjutsu as well as detect when a Genjutsu has been cast, enabling the partner method to be used even more efficiently and seamlessly. On top of that this team is comprised of Genjutsu experts and those who have a great deal of knowledge on Sharingan-Genjtusu as well as Itachi's prowess with it. Finally there is Kabuto to heal the effects of Tsukuyomi and if for some reason he can't do it, than there is Karin there to provide even further assistance in this regard with her Uzamaki ability and Sakon/Ukon with their gene manipulation.

It's extremely unlikely that Genjutsu is accomplishing that much in this match.



> But Itachi is facing a team! Numbers! Allow me to illustrate how superior numbers help when facing someone several tiers above: You don't die alone. I hope you understand that the difference between Asuma and those chunins are smaller than between Edo Itachi and Sound4/NaruSasu? And I also hope that you remember that Itachi's speed(both physical and casting) allows him to freely target anyone and dictate the fight's flow? He can engage and disengage freely, he can use clones freely in Edo state and also produce them too fast for anyone here to react. There wouldn't be any "team" here. Weaker ones are going to die instantly, others are going to be to busy trying to protect themselves and dying afterwards. There is simply no one here who can keep Itachi occupied for others to come up with team attacks. No one. Period. Genjutsu, Susano, basic ninjutsu blitz. Edo Itachi can freely chose his tools and spam them. Itachi will walk through people like you see in them samurai animes - with them dropping like flies with a puzzled expression.


The moment you started comparing these characters to sound fodder, is the moment that this entire speech about numbers not mattering lost all credibility.

Numbers do indeed matter, that has been illustrated numerous times in the manga cannon. Edo-Deidara was well above any member of the ambush-squad in strength, but he still go fodderized; same thing with Kakuzu, to name but two of many examples. Furthermore pretty much all of these characters have shown their merits in a team setting. Team Taka has done so numerous times against enemies >= Itachi, Sound Ninja demonstrated this when together they were able to erect a barrier that was able to contain the Sandaime-Hokage, and Kabuto as one of the greatest medical specialist in the verse should go without saying. Even Naruto and Sasuke proved their worth when they were useful against Zabuza, granted Zabuza is no where near Itachi's "level", but that was all the way back in the wave-arc, and none of these characters really come too close to Itachi it's only through team-work they will show their merit.



> Mateki: Mugen Onsa. Favorite "argument" of people that don't want to properly debate and discuss battles.


I believe your taking a joke way too seriously. Tayuya's Mugen Onsa on it's own is doing much of anything against Itachi. Tayuya soling Itachi is just as much of a joke as Itachi blitzing all 11 of these characters, that's the way those comments are suppose to be taken (sarcasm). 

Mugen Onsa is only a threat here do to the existence of 10 other Ninja. Itachi guard being lowered for a brief instance here can be daming because Tayuya's teammates can time their attack to go off at exactly the same time as Onsa, which is occurring while Itachi is distracted with other members of the team. Or it could potentially be a thread if Juugo can channel a bunch of Senjutsu chakra through Tayuya powering up the technique closer to Kabuto standards. In-fact this is the reason why any of these characters attacks would prove useful, I.E. being used in tandem with their teammates while other teammates run interference. 



> Edo Tensei Itachi with unlimited chakra


Edo Tensei can still run out of chakra. We've seen that multiple times now. So chakra will still be an issue for Itachi, even despite Edo perks 

And FYI, before you start throwing around the bias card, I don't think many characters would stand a chance against 6 Chuunin (S4 + VOTE Naruto/Sasuke) with major perks like CS/KN + 5 Jonin (Team Taka + Kabuto + Kimi)


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You do realize all the comments I was quoting were ones with; no analysis, no comparison, no logic, etc... And all I was doing, was pointing out how ridiculous they were. Than you come around, and do the same thing with my posts; that's calling the kettle black sir. Actually you know what it's worse than calling the kettle black, because while I was going about it in a lighthearted way; your approach is far more malicious directly calling me "hateful" and "stupid".



What you were posting was hateful and stupid, so AP isn't really in the wrong for telling you it was.



> Now let's move on to the "bias" part. You want to know what's bias Alex? Coming into a thread and giving all the Itachi-fanboys a pass, when they have been doing by far the most one-line responses that lack substance, and simply focusing on attacking those who actually did put substance in their post initially and than simply decided to joke around when it became obvious that the thread was never going to have substance. You know why that's bias? Because it makes it extremely clear that your motivation is not to talk out against posts lacking substance, but only to talk out against posters who are not Itachi-fangasming.



There's not much to talk about here. Everyone except you and the other guy seems to agree that Itachi slaps these children.



> I'd really love for you to prove that it's impossible Healthy Kimimaro w/ CS could have better reflexes than these two. Go on i'm waiting.



It can't be proven because we don't know what healthy Kimimaro's reflexes are like, but by the same token we have no reason to believe they'd be better than what Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke have demonstrated. The fact that all three are in the same speed tier and Kimimaro is the only one that doesn't have Sharingan also works against him in this regard.



> Are you seriously suggesting that you need Hebi-Sasuke "level" speed and seal-less techniques to even fight Itachi, let alone fight Itachi 11v1



I think his point was more that Itachi could pull one over on Hebi Sasuke, who is much faster than anyone here bar Kimimaro (who he's probably still faster than by a good amount, particularly when it comes to reaction time), which is a pretty good indication that most of these guys aren't even going to see what kills them.



> Alex, you clearly treating an 11v1 match as a 1v1 match here, and therefore all of this is irrelevant to the actual topic.
> 
> But here I'll talk about Itachi's speed a bit here:
> 
> Suigetsu reacted in time to defend Sasuke from R1 Ei's attack. Like-wise Juugo also reacted in time to defend R1 Ei's attack.



Base Killer B was able to connect a Lariat concurrently with A at full power. He also defended A from getting blitzed by Minato. Itachi was pretty evenly matched with Killer B's speed, not even taking into account potential misdirection with clones.



> Kimi has a 4.5 in speed [could be even higher without illness] the same movement/reflex speed as Hebi-Sasuke. Of course he doesn't have Sharingan, but he has CS to enhance his speed, which was directly compared to the increase Three-Tome Sharingan grants, by Sasuke who has utilized both powers. Hebi-Sasuke has CS beyond Three-Tome, but he did not need CS to keep up with Itachi's movement-speed, only when Itachi utilized Amaterasu.



Just because Sasuke compared the influence of the Juin to three-tomoe Sharingan doesn't mean the Juin allows for predictive vision the same way Sharingan does. Sasuke wasn't really clear about the comparison, but it could possibly be interpreted that he meant the increase in reaction time gave him the ability to act and react proportional to the Juin's speed boost.



> P1-Kabuto was considered capable enough to fight P1 Kakashi on equal footing who has the same speed and three-tome sharingan as Hebi-Sasuke [and can in-fact increase his speed further by opening at least 1-Gate], who was able to keep up with Itachi; this would make zero sense if Kakashi could simply blitz Kabuto and be done with it. Given this Kabuto can obviously also compete with those of that higher-speed class to a certain extent.



Just because Kabuto can fight Kakashi doesn't mean Kabuto is as fast as Kakashi.

I'm also pretty confident that if you asked people based on their performances in the manga who would win in a fight, the _overwhelming_ majority would favor Kakashi.



> None of those four characters are going to be lol blitz'd by Itachi and at least Juugo, Kimi, and Suigetsu are completely capable of blocking Itachi's attempts to blitz other members of their team



The only ones not getting blitzed are Kimimaro and Kabuto if he pops soldier pills.



> Moving on Sasuke was confident Kari w/ sensing could track the movements of Killer-B quick enough that she could warn Team-Taka before V1 Killer-B completed his attacks, it therefore stands to reason she can track Itachi's movements as well, and thus warn her fellow teammates when Itachi is attempting to blindside them with a blitz, enhancing her teams ability to react even further.



The reality is that Karin doesn't have the reaction time to keep up with Itachi at all, just like she couldn't keep up with Danzou's kick. Alerting her teammates to sneak attacks from a distance isn't the same as following Itachi move for move; I'm sure such an ability would've come in handy when Killer B was slicing up Sasuke like lunch meat.



> Sasuke's Sharingan would also help in keeping tracking of when Itachi is molding chakra to utilize Shunshin or channeling chakra to his legs to prep a blitz.



Too bad this Sasuke can't keep up with Itachi's speed or warn his teammates quickly enough for it to matter.



> Than there are of course Bushin tactics to mitigate the threat of a blitz even further.



Just more easy targets congesting the battlefield and limiting the range of movement for everyone else.



> Finally even if some does get hit by a physical bltiz, there is Karin, Kabuto, and in most case Juugo to heal. A blitz wouldn't even do anything to Suigetsu, Kimi given his blood line limit, or Naruto given his KN0 regeneration.
> 
> A blitz via physical speed is not doing anything here; point blank period.



None of them are healing their way out of Genjutsu. So yes, Itachi can end the fight with a blitz.



> You mention the partner method than proceed to ignore that the match is 11v1; one member of the team can break the other out of Genjtusu, or other members can interrupt the Genjutsu via attacking Itachi.



If Itachi uses Genjutsu like the one Sasuke used on C, that won't be a factor. C was still incapacitated even after Darui got to him.



> Additionally there is Karin and Sasuke whose sensory abilities, which can both detect when Itachi gather's chakra to his eyes to cast a Dojutsu-Genjutsu as well as detect when a Genjutsu has been cast, enabling the partner method to be used even more efficiently and seamlessly.



Doesn't matter if they can't break the Genjutsu or get to their teammates before Itachi intercepts. With full knowledge, there's really no good reason for Itachi to allow this.



> On top of that this team is comprised of Genjutsu experts and those who have a great deal of knowledge on Sharingan-Genjtusu as well as Itachi's prowess with it.



And none of them have the basic power to oppose Itachi, in Genjutsu or anything else for that matter.



> Finally there is Kabuto to heal the effects of Tsukuyomi and if for some reason he can't do it, than there is Karin there to provide even further assistance in this regard with her Uzamaki ability and Sakon/Ukon with their gene manipulation.



None of them have an ability that can mitigate damage from Tsukuyomi. Tsunade is the only one shown to be capable of that.



> It's extremely unlikely that Genjutsu is accomplishing that much in this match.



Orochimaru was helpless against Itachi's Genjutsu. His flunkies aren't going to put up much resistance to it.


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2014)

> The moment you started comparing these characters to sound fodder, is the moment that this entire speech about numbers not mattering lost all credibility.
> 
> Numbers do indeed matter, that has been illustrated numerous times in the manga cannon. Edo-Deidara was well above any member of the ambush-squad in strength, but he still go fodderized; same thing with Kakuzu, to name but two of many examples.



Both defeats were also circumstantial and almost entirely the product of carelessness on the part of the loser.

Carelessness and overconfidence are not traits Itachi shares.



> Furthermore pretty much all of these characters have shown their merits in a team setting. Team Taka has done so numerous times against enemies >= Itachi,



Taka never fought an enemy stronger than Itachi, and the ones they fought even close to Itachi's level (Killer B, A, Danzou) proved too much for them to handle.



> Sound Ninja demonstrated this when together they were able to erect a barrier that was able to contain the Sandaime-Hokage,



They weren't fighting the 3rd Hokage; they set up the barrier around him when he was confronted by Orochimaru. That ability isn't even going to be of any use here.



> and Kabuto as one of the greatest medical specialist in the verse should go without saying.



And you condemn other people for not putting logic or substance into their posts.



> Even Naruto and Sasuke proved their worth when they were useful against Zabuza, granted Zabuza is no where near Itachi's "level", but that was all the way back in the wave-arc, and none of these characters really come too close to Itachi it's only through team-work they will show their merit.



Naruto and Sasuke did nothing except scratch Zabuza's cheek and force him to move away from a particular spot where he was maintaining a Jutsu. Zabuza didn't have the benefit of full knowledge that Itachi has here, either.



> I believe your taking a joke way too seriously. Tayuya's Mugen Onsa on it's own is doing much of anything against Itachi. Tayuya soling Itachi is just as much of a joke as Itachi blitzing all 11 of these characters, that's the way those comments are suppose to be taken (sarcasm).
> 
> Mugen Onsa is only a threat here do to the existence of 10 other Ninja. Itachi guard being lowered for a brief instance here can be daming because Tayuya's teammates can time their attack to go off at exactly the same time as Onsa, which is occurring while Itachi is distracted with other members of the team. Or it could potentially be a thread if Juugo can channel a bunch of Senjutsu chakra through Tayuya powering up the technique closer to Kabuto standards. In-fact this is the reason why any of these characters attacks would prove useful, I.E. being used in tandem with their teammates while other teammates run interference.



Too bad they won't get a chance to do any of that before Itachi murders them like his family.



> Edo Tensei can still run out of chakra. We've seen that multiple times now. So chakra will still be an issue for Itachi, even despite Edo perks



It was explicitly stated that Edo Tensei do not run out of chakra.



> And FYI, before you start throwing around the bias card, I don't think many characters would stand a chance against 6 Chuunin (S4 + VOTE Naruto/Sasuke) with major perks like CS/KN + 5 Jonin (Team Taka + Kabuto + Kimi)



Anyone in the Kage-level would rape this team. Itachi just makes it look easy.


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## Turrin (May 5, 2014)

@Nikushimi
 I have absolutely no incentive to go down this road with you. You rate Itachi much much higher than I do and our views on how the power structure of the manga works couldn't be further apart. This has been long established in prior discussions. So I don't see any benefit in discussing character match ups with you, especially Itachi, where our views are even further apart. I only say this as a kindness because of the amount of effort you put into your post, and to prevent you from wasting any of your time in the future.


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## Sans (May 5, 2014)

Turrin's logic is a beautiful thing.

It's like gazing into the Abyss of Madness.


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (May 5, 2014)

Putting a bunch of part 1 chunins against someone who kept up with a shinobi whose *clones* were soloing kages. Not only that, giving the little kids feats of some high kage level shinobi with senjutsu to amplify their originals jutsus 

Itachi flat out blitzes and kill all of them with a kunai + genjutsu


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## Trojan (May 5, 2014)

Implying Naruto was fighting itachi seriously, and not wanting to only talk to him. -____-
Naruto did not even use any of his jutsus against itachi.


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## Sans (May 5, 2014)

Here is how the fight would go down, the cannon demands it!


*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 



[/IMG]







*Spoiler*: __ 



[/IMG]


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## Trojan (May 5, 2014)

> [=Nikushimi;50570372]Please show me where in the manga Tayuya without Kabuto's Senjutsu was able to do anything to someone of Itachi's caliber.



chapter 585. If Tayuya was stronger because if the SM, then that would have appeared on her
as any other SM user, but there was nothing. 


> They quite literally can't react to Itachi. How is that hypocritical?


Because when you put itachi against people who are far faster than him, it won't be taken like this,
and he will be all of sudden as fast or can keep up with their speed despite the HUGE different in speed. So, why can itachi keep up with Naruto, Tobirama, A, Minato, Obito's speed even though they
are faster than him, and this team can't even though the different in their speed to his speed, is less that the different between itachi's speed and the speedsters! 


> Kakashi's Sharingan couldn't register his hand signs at all. He took Kakashi's back with a clone feint mid-Jutsu, and the only reason Kakashi didn't end up with a kunai in his spine is because he did the same thing right into Itachi's exploding clone.


l'll agree with you for the sake of the argument. But, if Kurani can save herself from itachi's attack even though she was in a genjutsu, why won't this team, who has stronger members, and faster can't accomplish the same? 

itachi will need his MS to kill most of them, I don't see how can he kill them otherwise. The members of this team either has great durability (like Kimmimaro), Amazing healing jutsus (Kabuto, and Karin)
or chakra to protect them (KN1 Naruto). In addition to that, they have juts us that work perfectly against itachi as well, in addition to their numbers. 


and some of them are even long-rank fighters. In top of that, they even have full knowledge  on him 
why can't Tayuya go behind them, and while itachi "defeating/attacking" the other TEN, she simply uses her genjutsu! Even if the other TEN, were killed during that 5 seconds, she will be able to use her jutsu! And I believing I'm being very generous to say itachi will defeat them in 5 seconds. 


> You remember what happened to those three Uchiha police that came to intimidate Itachi over Shisui's death? Yeah, the same thing happens to everyone here not named Kimimaro.


Except those
1- were not defeated completely and they were ready to fight.
2- They are 3, not TEN.
3- They have no feats to begin with. The sound 4 were able to defeats some jonins, and ANBU as well. The same with Kabuto and the others. 


> Asuma dealt with that many and he's slower than Itachi.
> 
> Kimimaro schooled dozens of Naruto's clones without breaking a sweat.
> 
> ...



1- Except they are not as strong as this team, and we do not even know anything about their abilities. 
2- Yeah, but he did not do it in 1 second to the points where no one can even move a muscle! As some of itachi's fans appear to think! The posts I see are just itachi blitze low difficult, and kill everyone before they can attack him or even do anything.  

3- Even though I consider these 2 stronger than itachi anyway, but again we do not know how powerful they are. Minato ended to 3rd war, a feat only replaced by Kaguya of ending the War. Do you see someone state that base Minato is stronger than Hashi who got his ass kicked in the First War? Heck, some even think Tobirama who got killed by 20 is stronger than Minato who killed thousands in an instant. 


The thing is, those who we do not even know who they are considers as fodders, and as such those who the 3rd Raikage, and 2nd Mizukage defeated, we don't know their juts us or power or anything at all. In this case however, we do know what the characters in team 2 have, and their abilities completely. So, I think it's not fair to compare the 2 situations. 

4- The number does matter my dear. The 3rd Raikage got killed when he fought a lot of those fodders. Hashirama, and Tobirama got killed by fodders as well, even though their general level is much higher especially in Hashi's case. 3rd Raikage once again, was cut by Temari's attack, and even the fodder with the lava was able to steal some time for them. Deidara, Sasori, and Kakuzu in this war also were defeated by numbers

So, there have it 6 kage-level characters got overwhelmed by numbers. 

anyway, I did not want to ignore your post, but probably this is my last response. @>@


----------



## RedChidori (May 5, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Sick Itachi schools them, Edo Itachi murders them in seconds no difficulty.
> 
> Kimi is the strongest here yet Itachi is still tiers above him. I'd even argue Itachi can take this w/o MS.



This. Itachi-Sama soloes as usual .


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2014)

> You do realize all the comments I was quoting were ones with; no analysis, no comparison, no logic, etc...



Ad populem.

Balance fallacy.



> Actually you know what it's worse than calling the kettle black, because while I was going about it in a lighthearted way; your approach is far more malicious directly calling me "hateful" and "stupid".



Tu quoque, moving the goal posts, ad hominem, pleading special circumstances, and reading comprehension failure/misrepresentation*.

*He said you _look_ hateful and spiteful, not that you were, and he also included no names.  He wouldn't exclude your name if he was targeting you or other specifics with malice.



> You want to know what's bias Alex? Coming into a thread and giving all the Itachi-fanboys a pass...



Loaded question.  Strawman.  Ad hominen. Red herring.



> when they have been doing by far the most one-line responses that lack substance, and simply focusing on attacking those who actually did put substance in their post initially and than simply decided to joke around when it became obvious that the thread was never going to have substance. You know why that's bias? Because it makes it extremely clear that your motivation is not to talk out against posts lacking substance, but only to talk out against posters who are not Itachi-fangasming.



Stawman, bulverism, poisoning the well, more ad hominen.  Balance fallacy.  Over-generalization.  



> I'd really love for you to prove that it's impossible Healthy Kimimaro w/ CS could have better reflexes than these two. Go on i'm waiting.



Negative proof/appeal to ignorance.  Argument from incredulity. 



> Are you seriously suggesting that you need Hebi-Sasuke "level" speed and seal-less techniques to even fight Itachi, let alone fight Itachi 11v1



Strawman.  Argument from incredulity.  Argumentum ad lapidem.  False dilemma.  False fallacy fallacy.  Loaded question.



> Alex, you clearly treating an 11v1 match as a 1v1 match here, and therefore all of this is irrelevant to the actual topic.  The moment you started comparing these characters to sound fodder, is the moment that this entire speech about numbers not mattering lost all credibility.



Bulvarism.  Composition and division.  Straw man, ...  pizza's here.

  Someone can double check me.


----------



## Turrin (May 5, 2014)

@POW
I'm hoping that was a joke, because if your serious, than once again we have a case of another person calling the kettle black, but worse.


----------



## Rocky (May 5, 2014)

He simply pointed out the overwhelming amount of fallacies in your post and even cited the source.


----------



## Sans (May 5, 2014)

After murdering Itachi with chakra scalpels, Part I Kabuto double checked  PoW and agreed with his conclusion.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @POW
> I'm hoping that was a joke, because if your serious, than once again we have a case of another person calling the kettle black, but worse.



Tu quoque.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 6, 2014)

This thread is now about how many people it takes to tell Turrin he's wrong before he gets it.



Hussain said:


> chapter 585. If Tayuya was stronger because if the SM, then that would have appeared on her
> as any other SM user, but there was nothing.



Sage Mode increases the power of Genjutsu. This is a known fact.



> Because when you put itachi against people who are far faster than him, it won't be taken like this,



Few people are far faster than Itachi and his abilities are such that he is equipped to fight even most of those.



> and he will be all of sudden as fast or can keep up with their speed despite the HUGE different in speed. So, why can itachi keep up with Naruto, Tobirama, A, Minato, Obito's speed even though they
> are faster than him, and this team can't even though the different in their speed to his speed, is less that the different between itachi's speed and the speedsters!



Because Itachi has Susano'o that he can activate at will. These guys don't.



> l'll agree with you for the sake of the argument. But, if Kurani can save herself from itachi's attack even though she was in a genjutsu, why won't this team, who has stronger members, and faster can't accomplish the same?



The only person here who is faster than Kurenai is Kimimaro. And maybe Kabuto with soldier pills, but also maybe not.

Kurenai is also a Genjutsu specialist, so that's kinda her field of expertise anyway.



> itachi will need his MS to kill most of them, I don't see how can he kill them otherwise. The members of this team either has great durability (like Kimmimaro), Amazing healing jutsus (Kabuto, and Karin)
> or chakra to protect them (KN1 Naruto). In addition to that, they have juts us that work perfectly against itachi as well, in addition to their numbers.



Regular Genjutsu works fine, Katon roasts Kimimaro like a marshmallow, and the rest get their throats slit with a kunai.

Oh yeah, and as someone else pointed out, Itachi can just stand there and spam Suigadan on all of them because of the location and immediately cripple anyone on the opposing team.



> and some of them are even long-rank fighters. In top of that, they even have full knowledge  on him



He has full knowledge on them, too. And he's, like...on a different level in every relevant way.



> why can't Tayuya go behind them, and while itachi "defeating/attacking" the other TEN, she simply uses her genjutsu!



Because attacking Itachi from behind didn't work even when Killer B tried it and Tayuya has never effectively used her Genjutsu on anyone remotely as powerful OR specifically adept at it as Itachi.



> Even if the other TEN, were killed during that 5 seconds, she will be able to use her jutsu!



It won't do anything to Itachi without Kabuto's Senjutsu. Even if it did, Itachi can still Genjutsu her to stop her Genjutsu; she doesn't have Kabuto's eye protection, either.



> And I believing I'm being very generous to say itachi will defeat them in 5 seconds.



You are. I doubt they would last that long if he were serious.



> Except those
> 1- were not defeated completely and they were ready to fight.



If Itachi had pulled a kunai on them instead of hitting them with his fists, yes, they would have been defeated.



> 2- They are 3, not TEN.



Two Tokubetsu Jonin nearly beat the Sound 4.

Those three Uchiha were Jonin. These ten are mostly Chuunin and Chuunin-level Genin.



> 3- They have no feats to begin with. The sound 4 were able to defeats some jonins, and ANBU as well. The same with Kabuto and the others.



The databooks said they were the elite of the Uchiha clan and the Uchiha clan has been praised as the strongest other than the Senju. They also had three-tomoe Sharingan; even Obito, the scrubbest of the scrub Uchiha, with two-tomoe Sharingan was able to fight average Jonin and beat them.



> 1- Except they are not as strong as this team, and we do not even know anything about their abilities.



That's because Asuma murdered them before they could do anything. Just like Itachi will do to these guys.



> 2- Yeah, but he did not do it in 1 second to the points where no one can even move a muscle! As some of itachi's fans appear to think!



Well, excuse me for not being able to move at the freaking *speed of light*
Well, excuse me for not being able to move at the freaking *speed of light*
Well, excuse me for not being able to move at the freaking *speed of light*

^In the span of three pages, Kimimaro wiped out what appears to have been easily 10 or more Naruto clones.



> The posts I see are just itachi blitze low difficult, and kill everyone before they can attack him or even do anything.



That is what will happen. 



> 3- Even though I consider these 2 stronger than itachi anyway, but again we do not know how powerful they are.



The 2nd Mizukage and 3rd Raikage are stronger than Itachi? Lol. No.



> Minato ended to 3rd war, a feat only replaced by Kaguya of ending the War. Do you see someone state that base Minato is stronger than Hashi who got his ass kicked in the First War?



No, because that's retarded.

Kaguya ended a war before any shinobi or persons with chakra existed; she was the only one.

Minato fought in a war along with every other Konoha shinobi available for conscription at the time, against other shinobi, and he ended it in cooperation with his comrades--not by himself.



> Heck, some even think Tobirama who got killed by 20 is stronger than Minato who killed thousands in an instant.



Tobirama died fighting 20 elites; Minato slaughtered 50 fodder in one battle.

Just more proof that numbers don't mean much.



> The thing is, those who we do not even know who they are considers as fodders, and as such those who the 3rd Raikage, and 2nd Mizukage defeated, we don't know their juts us or power or anything at all. In this case however, we do know what the characters in team 2 have, and their abilities completely. So, I think it's not fair to compare the 2 situations.



The point was only to illustrate that outnumbering their enemy doesn't mean they will win.



> 4- The number does matter my dear. The 3rd Raikage got killed when he fought a lot of those fodders. Hashirama, and Tobirama got killed by fodders as well, even though their general level is much higher especially in Hashi's case.



The 3rd Raikage died from *exhaustion* fighting *10,000* fodder ninja. There aren't enough enemies here to push Itachi that far.

Hashirama died under unknown circumstances against an unknown enemy/number of enemies. Tobirama was killed by 20 highly-regarded ninja that included the pseudo-Jinchuuriki Kinkaku and Ginkaku, both of whom were individually strong enough to overwhelm Darui's entire division in their V2 forms.



> 3rd Raikage once again, was cut by Temari's attack,



He wasn't protecting himself or avoiding it with his Raiton abilities while he was on auto-pilot.



> and even the fodder with the lava was able to steal some time for them.



I don't know who that is. I suspect you probably mean Dodai, but he uses rubber.

And so what if he bought time?



> Deidara, Sasori, and Kakuzu in this war also were defeated by numbers



Kakuzu was off-paneled by Chouji, while Deidara and Sasori lost because they got cocky due to their immortality. Deidara even said there was no need to dodge attacks.



> So, there have it 6 kage-level characters got overwhelmed by numbers.



Far greater numbers than just ten, and also far stronger shinobi among them than the ones here.

And you know what? Itachi is stronger than four of those six guys you used as examples.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Nikushimi
> I have absolutely no incentive to go down this road with you. You rate Itachi much much higher than I do and our views on how the power structure of the manga works couldn't be further apart. This has been long established in prior discussions. So I don't see any benefit in discussing character match ups with you, especially Itachi, where our views are even further apart. I only say this as a kindness because of the amount of effort you put into your post, and to prevent you from wasting any of your time in the future.



I'm not really interested in any of that mess.

I'm just one more person here telling you why you're wrong.



Hussain said:


> Implying Naruto was fighting itachi seriously, and not wanting to only talk to him. -____-



Itachi was also talking. So either that means he was also holding back or it means talking doesn't require holding back.

It's one thing to make shit up but at least be fair about it if you do.



> Naruto did not even use any of his jutsus against itachi.



Itachi did not even use any of his Jutsu against Naruto.

What's your point?


----------



## Turrin (May 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tu quoque.


Tu quoque only works if i'm claiming my innocence, which i'm not. I'm simply claiming that other people are hypocrites. So nice straw-man 



Nikushimi said:


> I'm not really interested in any of that mess.
> 
> I'm just one more person here telling you why you're wrong.


Well you can't say I didn't try to be nice. Go ahead and waste your time if you want, just gives me more material for my game with Hussain


----------



## Nikushimi (May 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Tu quoque only works if i'm claiming my innocence, which i'm not. I'm simply claiming that other people are hypocrites. So nice straw-man



Your fallacies are not PoW's strawman.

I don't think you know what a strawman is.



> Well you can't say I didn't try to be nice. Go ahead and waste your time if you want, just gives me more material for my game with Hussain



If this is a game then I'm pretty sure you're losing it.


----------



## Alex Payne (May 6, 2014)

Niku and PoW already addressed everything for me. The only thing I must add



Turrin said:


> P1-Kabuto was considered capable enough to fight P1 Kakashi on equal footing who has the same speed and three-tome sharingan as Hebi-Sasuke [and can in-fact increase his speed further by opening at least 1-Gate], who was able to keep up with Itachi; this would make zero sense if Kakashi could simply blitz Kabuto and be done with it. Given this Kabuto can obviously also compete with those of that higher-speed class to a certain extent. None of those four characters are going to be lol blitz'd by Itachi and at least Juugo, Kimi, and Suigetsu are completely capable of blocking Itachi's attempts to blitz other members of their team



Pre-CE Kabuto Stat Total 30 < Pre-CE Kakashi Stat Total 33
Post-CE Kabuto Stat Total 32 < Post-CE Kakashi Stat Total 34.5

Sorry Turrin, author himself disagrees with you. Those stat totals which are obviously showing the true "level" of shinobi and are unaffected by characters' bias and lack of info are clearly placing Kakashi above Kabuto. They also came out after manga's statements so it might be some sort of retcon, I am not sure. I mean, it's Totals. The best way to compare characters.

P.S. By trying to "battle" "Itachi-fanboys" like that you look worser than them imo.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi was also talking. So either that means he was also holding back or it means talking doesn't require holding back.
> 
> It's one thing to make shit up but at least be fair about it if you do.
> 
> ...



sweetheart, itachi is zombi who was controlled by Kabuto. How can he hold back when Kabuto
controlled him directly?


----------



## Nikushimi (May 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> sweetheart, itachi is zombi who was controlled by Kabuto. How can he hold back when Kabuto
> controlled him directly?



He can't. 

Which means it is possible to talk while not holding back.

Which means talking doesn't mean Naruto was holding back.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 6, 2014)

Also, lol stat totals.


----------



## Vice (May 6, 2014)

Except Naruto's reacting to Itachi and Itachi's on auto pilot.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Except Naruto's reacting to Itachi and Itachi's on auto pilot.



What's your point?

EDIT: I'll make it for you:

"Naruto could hold back. Itachi couldn't."

And now I'll refute it just as easily:

"There's no evidence Naruto was holding back."

And now I'll predict your response to that, too:

"Naruto was talking with Itachi, so he must've been holding back!"

And then I'll refute that, returning to square one:

"Itachi was talking and he was on auto-pilot, i.e., not holding back."

There you go, Vice. All caught-up.


----------



## Vice (May 6, 2014)

Being on auto pilot makes it easier for him to have a conversation because it doesn't require him to think about offense or counters, whereas Naruto has to play defense and carry a conversation.

This ain't hard, Niku.


----------



## Sans (May 6, 2014)

Everyone knows that characters in comic books and manga can't talk and fight at the same time.

Right?


----------



## Vice (May 6, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> Everyone knows that characters in comic books and manga can't talk and fight at the same time.
> 
> Right?



Sure they can. If they want answers to questions being answered, however, they're not going to blitz their opponent and go all out leaving them unable to respond.


----------



## Sans (May 6, 2014)

I see your hate boner is still out.


----------



## Vice (May 6, 2014)

Common sense boner, more like it.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Tu quoque only works if i'm claiming my innocence, which i'm not.



No, it doesn't.  Tu quoque is an admission of guilt, while claiming, "You are no better than me."

_Politician 1: Is it true that you were at a brothel last night?
Politician 2: You should know better than I do, I was with you last night!
*The fact that Politician 1 was also present at the brothel in no way absolves any of the moral blame* for Politician 2 (unless P1 dragged P2 there against P2's will). If P2 is lying, he is making a pathetic attempt to switch blame. If P2 is telling the truth, P1 is being a massive hypocrite who should also go down with P2-- but he's a politician, so no surprises there.
_




> I'm simply claiming that other people are hypocrites.



Changing goal posts.  Guilt by association, the brother of tu quoque.

_This fallacy is very frequently paired with the guilt by association fallacy, so that the person engaging in the fallacy need not even show that the other person's actions are inconsistent with their position; rather, it is merely shown that the actions of some other person somehow associated with that person did something inconsistent with that person's position. *For instance, if someone criticizes Clinton for his dishonesty, the common rejoinder is to bring up Bush's dishonesty.*_



> So nice straw-man



False fallacy fallacy.


----------



## Psp123789 (May 6, 2014)

Lol and people say Itachi gets overrated.  
The hostility towards Itachi is going off the charts, especially because of some of the people here.


----------



## Sans (May 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Common sense boner, more like it.



Anyone arguing that some trumped up fodder from Part I, lead by some trumped up fodder from Part II can beat _any_ Kage level opponent is, uh, retarded.

Or hateful, biased, etc.


----------



## Vice (May 6, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> Anyone arguing that some trumped up fodder from Part I, lead by some trumped up fodder from Part II can beat _any_ Kage level opponent is uh, retarded.
> 
> Or hateful, biased, etc.



I'd say it's not any more retarded than arguments I've seen here stating Itachi can beat the Sannin by himself, or the Gokage or the Paths of Pain or any other numerous ridiculous arguments I've seen made here.

Where's the uproar for that shit?


----------



## Sans (May 6, 2014)

Other people being silly doesn't mean it's suddenly a great idea to be silly in an unrelated matter. That just means you're both retarded.

Go and defend the Gokage in the Gokage vs Itachi threads. Don't be a moron and argue that the likes of VotE Naruto and Sasuke can threaten Edo Itachi.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Being on auto pilot makes it easier for him to have a conversation because it doesn't require him to think about offense or counters, whereas Naruto has to play defense and carry a conversation.
> 
> This ain't hard, Niku.



I'd imagine it's pretty soft, considering how far up your ass you reached for it.



Vice said:


> Sure they can. If they want answers to questions being answered, however, they're not going to blitz their opponent and go all out leaving them unable to respond.



Now if only you had any evidence that Naruto was able to blitz Itachi in the first place...



Vice said:


> Common sense boner, more like it.



Must be why all your posts are so short and flaccid.



Komnenos said:


> Anyone arguing that some trumped up fodder from Part I, lead by some trumped up fodder from Part II can beat _any_ Kage level opponent is, uh, retarded.
> 
> Or hateful, biased, etc.



Everyone feels that way except for Turrin, Vice, and Hussain.

Go figure. 



Vice said:


> I'd say it's not any more retarded than arguments I've seen here stating Itachi can beat the Sannin by himself, or the Gokage or the Paths of Pain or any other numerous ridiculous arguments I've seen made here.
> 
> Where's the uproar for that shit?



All you ever do is uproar about it between unprovoked blanket insults to Itachi fans.



Komnenos said:


> Other people being silly doesn't mean it's suddenly a great idea to be silly in an unrelated matter. That just means you're both retarded.
> 
> Go and defend the Gokage in the Gokage vs Itachi threads. Don't be a moron and argue that the likes of VotE Naruto and Sasuke can threaten Edo Itachi.



But that's the sensible thing to do.


----------



## ARGUS (May 6, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> Lol and people say Itachi gets overrated.
> The hostility towards Itachi is going off the charts, especially because of some of the people here.


Despite Itachi, being overrated at times,, he is also one of the most hated characters,in the NF


----------



## StickaStick (May 6, 2014)

Is there a fallacy for singling out particular individuals for committing fallacies while ignoring others that are doing the same? lol because I see plenty of them being blatantly ignored which might be more dishonest than actually committing them (and likely unknowingly at that). In other words, if you're going to be _that guy_ then at least be consistent and impartial.

On-topic: Itachi stomps.


----------



## Ersa (May 6, 2014)

KCM Naruto was clearly holding back, Itachi was clearly trying as hard as he could. I mean did you see all those Amaterasu, Susanoo limbs, clones and genjutsu thrown out by Itachi in their skirmish? Cause I did.

Edo Tensei auto-pilot? Doesn't exist.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> This thread is now about how many people it takes to tell Turrin he's wrong before he gets it.



The guy didn't get it for the past 8 years. Don't think he'll get it now.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 6, 2014)

The Format said:


> Is there a fallacy for singling out particular individuals for committing fallacies while ignoring others that are doing the same? lol because I see plenty of them being blatantly ignored which might be more dishonest than actually committing them (and likely unknowingly at that). In other words, if you're going to be _that guy_ then at least be consistent and impartial.
> 
> On-topic: Itachi stomps.



I blatantly ignore 99% of all threads, posters, and posts in the BD, and have no desire to become the BD's Logic Police.

Turrin was spouting out fallacies at a stupendous rate, is intractable, and has the debate stamina of Hashirama with a bijuu.  Since he has given me the special attention of writing out 100 essays to respond to each of my posts over the course of weeks, he warrants getting special attention to one of his posts. ... at least until my pizza arrived.  I am otherwise fair and impartial with my apathy.


----------



## Stermor (May 6, 2014)

pretty sure the initial fireball from itachi would kill everybody barring maybe kimimaro.. 

who by then is already asleep/dead from a simple genjutsu.. 

i would go as far as to say a 10 year old anbu itachi could win this.. (speed allowing the fireball to kill them) and genjutsu skills to take out kimimaro..


----------



## blk (May 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Healthy Kimimaro may be able to give Itachi some difficulty by himself. His stat total in the DB is 30.5, though given the severity of his illness some stats may increase. Granted the same can be said about Itachi going from sick to Edo, but I don't think his illness was quite as severe as Kimi's; so if stats do not count illnesses I'd expect Kimi's overall ability to raise a bit more than Itachi's. Than Kimi has CS to increase his overall ability even higher than that. That's not to say Kimi is beating Edo Itachi or even giving him a high-diff fight, but he should at least provide Edo-Itachi with low diff or enough diff where Itachi will likely need at least one Mangekyo-Sharingan Tech to win. And really the same can be said about Kabuto. Only reason I bring this up, is because of the assertions of Itachi stomping, which the inclusion of Healthy-Kimi & Kabuto alone should dispel.
> 
> As for the actual match. Edo-Itachi is most likely going to loose here simply given how greatly out number he is and the excellent degree of team-work many of these shinobi have, such as S5,Team Hebi, and VOTE Sasuke/Naruto. With that said I expect Itachi to kill a a good bit of them before he goes down.



Did you even read the starting conditions? There is full knowledge and 10m of starting distance, this means that Itachi will immediatly jump towards them and activate Susano'o [1].
Since none of them is as fast as Itachi, much less as Susano's activation speed (far faster than Itachi himself), a bunch of them is going to be cut in half just after this rush (most likely Tayuya is one of them, since he knows that she's one of the most troublesome).

The rest are fastly taken out too, considering that they will not be able to break Susano'o and escape from its assaults (they are slower).

The match will, at best, last some minute (which means that this could be sick Itachi and nothing would change).


----------



## Cognitios (May 6, 2014)

Is it possible for any of these characters (besides Tayuya who gets taken out in the inital katon blast) to even breach Susanoo?


----------



## Vice (May 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I'd imagine it's pretty soft, considering how far up your ass you reached for it.



Reading the manga and not being preoccupied with fapping to Itachi panels. That's How far I reached for it.



> now if only you had any evidence that Naruto was able to blitz Itachi in the first place...



Naruto is faster than A. Itachi is not faster than A. Do the math.



> Must be why all your posts are so short and flaccid.



I have neither the time nor the desire to type out novels in my responses, and I find it funny I never see you complain about the one-sentence responses when it contains the combination of "Itachi" "solos" and "GG", but all of a sudden now you have a problem with it? 

Since im under no obligation to be long-winded in my responses and we don't get style points for doing so, I suggest you just get over it.



> Everyone feels that way except for Turrin, Vice, and Hussain.
> 
> Go figure.



That's funny, I don't remember uttering one word concerning the outcome of this match. I'm sure you can point out where I did. 



> All you ever do is uproar about it between unprovoked blanket insults to Itachi fans.



If you don't like that I treat you and the rest of his fanclub like trolls, my suggestion to you would be to stop acting like one.

I'm not alone in thinking of you all this way either.


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## ARGUS (May 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I blatantly ignore 99% of all threads, posters, and posts in the BD, and have no desire to become the BD's Logic Police.
> 
> Turrin was spouting out fallacies at a stupendous rate, is intractable, and has the debate stamina of Hashirama with a bijuu.  Since he has given me the special attention of writing out 100 essays to respond to each of my posts over the course of weeks, he warrants getting special attention to one of his posts. ... at least until my pizza arrived.  I am otherwise fair and impartial with my apathy.



geez,, it seems that all the debating,,has made u into some literature professor


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## tkpirate (May 6, 2014)

@vice, Naruto being faster than A would mean he is faster than Itachi,but dosen't mean he can blitz Itachi.Itachi never got blitzed by Naruto in that fight,so we can say Itachi's reaction speed is atleast as fast as KCM Naruto attack speed.


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## Vice (May 6, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> ^ Naruto being faster than A would mean he is faster than Itachi,but dosen't mean he can blitz Itachi.Itachi never got blitzed by Naruto in that fight,so we can say Itachi's reaction speed is atleast as fast as KCM Naruto attack speed.



Naruto wasn't trying to blitz Itachi.


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## Turrin (May 6, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Niku and PoW already addressed everything for me. The only thing I must add
> .


Alex I actually bothered to give you a genuine response, because of my respect for you as a poster. So to differ to not genuine responses is pretty shitty.

As for Kakashi's stat total, it reflects his abilities with his Dojutsu taken into account, but obviously since he can't use his Dojutsu for very long in Part I he isn't going to be fighting at that "level" consistently. The match would probably initially be in Kakashi's favor, but Kabuto with his medical ninjutsu and pills would hold out until Kakashi started to exhaust himself, than it would reverse. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> No, it doesn't.  Tu quoque is an admission of guilt, while claiming, "You are no better than me."
> 
> _Politician 1: Is it true that you were at a brothel last night?
> Politician 2: You should know better than I do, I was with you last night!
> ...


POW how can you post all of this and still be unaware of how these logical fallacies even work? Literally read what you posted and you'll realize that your wrong.

*The fact that Politician 1 was also present at the brothel in no way absolves any of the moral blame[*

The attention of my response to Alex was not to absolve myself of any of the "blame" Alex was placing on me. Or to put it another way:

Person A makes claim X about Person B.
Person B points out that claim X is also true of Person A.
Therefore, *X is is irrelevant/false* and A is a hypocrite.

I was not asserting that Alex's Claim was false. So I was not employing tu quoque. All I was doing was point out the hypocrisy present in his post, and guess what you can point out someone's hypocrisy without employing tu quoque, so long as your accepting your own part of the "blame". Hell the shit you posted even says that:

"Certainly, if the premises are indeed true then source A is likely a hypocrite and should also be included in the guilty party"
*If P2 is telling the truth, P1 is being a massive hypocrite who should also go down with P2*

In-fact you asserting tu quoque, is attacking a straw-man, because I never was not accepting the "blame" in the first place.



> Changing goal posts.


Again learn how to use logical fallacies. I do not think "changing goal posts" even exists as a logical fallacy. If you referring to "moving the goalpost", than you asserting that makes zero sense.

Moving the Goal post "is an informal logically fallacious argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded."

This has nothing to do with pointing out hypocrisy as I'm not demanding evidence of anything, let alone greater evidence when already provided evidence. 



> Guilt by association


At this point I really hope your just messing around, because this one makes absolutely no sense.

Guilt by association is: "if the argument attacks a person because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument."

Pointing out hypocrisy has absolutely nothing to do with this, so much so, that you listing this logic fallacy comes of as if your just pulling random ones from a list to joke around, hence me hoping that is indeed the case. 



blk said:


> Did you even read the starting conditions? There is full knowledge and 10m of starting distance, this means that Itachi will immediatly jump towards them and activate Susano'o [1].
> Since none of them is as fast as Itachi, much less as Susano's activation speed (far faster than Itachi himself), a bunch of them is going to be cut in half just after this rush (most likely Tayuya is one of them, since he knows that she's one of the most troublesome).
> 
> The rest are fastly taken out too, considering that they will not be able to break Susano'o and escape from its assaults (they are slower).
> ...


Blk if you want to believe Itachi wins with his strongest Jutsu, I'm perfectly cool with that and I can actually see some validity in that argument. I do not think there is much difference between Itachi winning w/ high difficulty (using his strongest Jutsu) and Itachi loosing but massacring half this team (maybe more) before he goes down. I think those conclusions are actually much closer than you realize, and nether assertions are lacking the logical rational, like assertions such as lol Itachi blitz with a Kunai and chakra crushes. The rest I will chalk up to difference in opinion.


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## Sans (May 6, 2014)

Half this team literally struggled with two Tokubetsu Jounin. ck


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## crystalblade13 (May 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The only Jonin-level combatants Itachi is facing are Kimimaro and Kabuto, who sit right around or below part 1 Kakashi's level, who Itachi wiped out with Tsukuyomi. The rest are Chuunin-level; Karin was one-shotted by Danzou using only Taijutsu, Suigetsu and Jugo were both restrained by base Hebi Sasuke at the same time, and VotE Naruto and Sasuke are roughly on the same level as any of the Sound 4, who lost to shinobi from Naruto's class in part 1 and were pushed to their limits collectively by two Tokubetsu Jonin.
> 
> To all put this into perspective, Asuma singlehandedly wiped out a platoon of 10 Jonin, yet he was helpless against Itachi.
> 
> Your move, Turrin.



just saiyin, taka's got more impressive since then. like it or not, karin massacred a mini buddah with chakra chains, and it was murking most of the alliance. juugo's v2 state is plenty powerful and can likely tank everything itachi has bar totsuka.

itachi still wins of couse, but those chains and chakra cannons are nasty


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## tkpirate (May 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Naruto wasn't trying to blitz Itachi.



it dosen't mean he can do it either.


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## Ghost (May 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @saikyou
> 
> That was soooo detailed....



When did I say I'd give a detailed post?


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## Nikushimi (May 6, 2014)

crystalblade13 said:


> just saiyin, taka's got more impressive since then. like it or not, karin massacred a mini buddah with chakra chains, and it was murking most of the alliance. juugo's v2 state is plenty powerful and can likely tank everything itachi has bar totsuka.
> 
> itachi still wins of couse, but those chains and chakra cannons are nasty



Itachi's not some massive sluggish Buddha statue and I would love to see Jugo tank even the most basic Genjutsu he can dish.



Cognitios said:


> Is it possible for any of these characters (besides Tayuya who gets taken out in the inital katon blast) to even breach Susanoo?



Nah.



Vice said:


> Reading the manga and not being preoccupied with fapping to Itachi panels. That's How far I reached for it.



Now if only Naruto being able to blitz Itachi was in the manga and not just in the deepest recesses of your bum.



> Naruto is faster than A. Itachi is not faster than A. Do the math.



A discrepancy in speed doesn't guarantee a blitz.

There is no evidence that Naruto wasn't trying to blitz Itachi. There is no evidence that he was even capable of blitzing Itachi.



> I have neither the time nor the desire to type out novels in my responses, and I find it funny I never see you complain about the one-sentence responses when it contains the combination of "Itachi" "solos" and "GG", but all of a sudden now you have a problem with it?
> 
> Since im under no obligation to be long-winded in my responses and we don't get style points for doing so, I suggest you just get over it.



I was just exploiting your wording to make a penis joke, honestly.



> That's funny, I don't remember uttering one word concerning the outcome of this match. I'm sure you can point out where I did.



Fair enough, but you're still wrong about the Naruto holding back thing.



> If you don't like that I treat you and the rest of his fanclub like trolls, my suggestion to you would be to stop acting like one.



I don't really care how you treat an entire group of people you don't know as a single cohesive entity based on one tenuous common factor between them; I'm just telling you it's really fucking...shameful and ill-conceived...and that anybody with a functioning conscience would step back, realize the striking similarity between that sentiment and racism, and apologize...for making a complete ass of themselves and wasting everybody's time.



> I'm not alone in thinking of you all this way either.



I am well aware that there are people in this world who are unable to separate their judgment of individuals from the groups to which they belong.

They are some of my favorite people to mistreat.



Kifflom!! said:


> geez,, it seems that all the debating,,has made u into some literature professor



He just said he deliberately avoids like 99% of the debates here.


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## Risyth (May 6, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> Half this team literally struggled with two Tokubetsu Jounin. ck



Who were already drained of chakra...even after going CS2.


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## Cognitios (May 6, 2014)

> Who were already drained of chakra...even after going CS2.


You're right, fighting base part 1 sasuke must have been so troublesome.


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## Risyth (May 6, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> You're right, fighting base part 1 sasuke must have been so troublesome.



Wth are you talking about?


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## Cognitios (May 6, 2014)

> Wth are you talking about?


Idk, what are you talking about?


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## Legendary Itachi (May 6, 2014)

I think he was saying those Tokubetsu Jonins are exhausted from their mission instead of the Sound 4.

Yeah, their "excellent" teamwork doesn't help them trump 2 tired Tokubetsu Jonin I guess.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Naruto wasn't trying to blitz Itachi.



Itachi is faster than Sasuke. 

There is no evidence that Naruto is faster than A, other than A's implcation. And going by that, he was faster by a hairs breadth. 

So there is absolutely no evidence that Naruto can blitz Itachi. 

As for the actual fight, he saw/sensed Itachi coming at them and he intercepted him. Knowing how dangerous Naruto thinks Itach is...  The logical outcome is that he did his best to do so. 

The assumption that Naruto could handle Itachi while holding back(aka baby shaking) would suggest a massive tier difference. Which is complete and utter bullshit based on feats, portrayal and statements.


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## ARGUS (May 7, 2014)

Guys i have a confession to make,,, 

-I made this thread puposely to bring the love for Itachi back,, as he is being hated on far too much recently in the NF BD,,, the whole saying "Itachi Solos GG'' makes my day sometimes


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi is faster than Sasuke.
> 
> There is no evidence that Naruto is faster than A, other than A's implcation. And going by that, he was faster by a hairs breadth.
> 
> ...







Naruto > A
A > Itachi
Naruto > Itachi

Deal with it.


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## Rosencrantz (May 7, 2014)

alex payne said:


> 1. There is no one here who can react even barely to Itachi's hand-seals. No one. Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke - two speedsters with 3-tomoe Sharingan couldn't. Don't you even fucking try to refute this. There is no one here with both physical and reaction speed as good as those two. Period. And those two barely defended themselves using insight/battle experience(in Kakashi's case... no one here is as good as he is, don't even try) and seal-less tech(in Sasuke's case). But hey! People here have seal-less techs to protect themselves! They do. Do they have the overall speed-level of Hebi Sasuke? They don't. Thus they are going to die. It is that simple. Kimimaro with his Kekkei Genkei defenses is one _possible_ exception.
> 
> 2. There is no one here who can keep up with Edo Itachi's physical speed. No one. It is easy, you see. Simply open manga chapters where Itachi+Nagato met Killer B+Naruto. And try to use you imagination. Replace Itachi with anyone from Team Scrub and imagine what changes. I can tell you what changes btw. They are going to get blitzed by either of Jins zero difficulty. Not even zero, negative difficulty. There wouldn't be any KCM Naruto taijutsu-clash, no Killer B's "behind you", no defending against 7-sword-style. They are going to get fodderized instantly. And if they aren't dead after that - Nagato finishes them off for being too much of a scrub to be paired with him.
> 
> ...


1. Not being able to track handseal speed does not mean one can not defend. Kakashi could not see the hand seals but he saw the suiton and blocked it. So one can still react to the jutsu itself just not the handseals. Beginning of Part 2 Sakura avoided Itachi's katon and its not like she can react to his hand seals haha.

2. Well Suigetsu/Juugo reacted to a V1 A so speed wise they should be able to react to Itachi. Karin's sensing could keep track of Killer Bee to some degree as well. Kimmimaro should be able to as well considering the 4.5 speed tier and all. Kabuto was Kakashi's equal so he could deal with 4.5 tier speed/sharingan without getting blitzed so he should be fine against Itachi and be able to react. Sasuke does have a 3 tomoe sharingan with 3.5 tier speed not including CS power ups. 4 tier speed Kurenai could react to Itachi so he should. Also Naruto fueled with Kyuubi chakra may be able to as well. Quite a few people can react to his movements. Itachi is simply not as fast as people want him to be.

3. Too many participants for genjutsu to play a significant factor. And keep in mind they have knowledge. Sensor and doujutsu user help to see if anyone gets caught. As well as things like bunshins.

4. Nameless fodder? I don't consider jounin level combatants a few of which are arguably stronger than Asuma to be fodder on that level.

5. Is that not a joke? Shikamaru broke out of it. Sure Itachi could. Think people mean that it would just briefly distract him. But I am not sure maybe that is a thing in the battledome now. But it would definitely distract him. When you consider arrows, webs, Dotons, Bunshin armies, Frogs, Katons, chidoris, Chakra scapels/dead bodies, Bones/top tier taijutsu, CS chakra cannons, and Suigetsu water bullets/kenjutsu, etc coming at him that distraction could definitely be make or break.

Itachi wins this match but you guys are getting laughable if you think he does it without the Mangekyou. He absolutely needs it or he dies fairly quickly. He is fighting Kabuto who is Kakashi level who was holding off Itachi's base arsenal. Kabuto alone could at least hold off Itachi's base for an opening that Kimmi or anyone else can take advantage of.



Turrin said:


> But here I'll talk about Itachi's speed a bit here:
> 
> Suigetsu reacted in time to defend Sasuke from R1 Ei's attack. Like-wise Juugo also reacted in time to defend R1 Ei's attack. Kimi has a 4.5 in speed [could be even higher without illness] the same movement/reflex speed as Hebi-Sasuke. Of course he doesn't have Sharingan, but he has CS to enhance his speed, which was directly compared to the increase Three-Tome Sharingan grants, by Sasuke who has utilized both powers. Hebi-Sasuke has CS beyond Three-Tome, but he did not need CS to keep up with Itachi's movement-speed, only when Itachi utilized Amaterasu. P1-Kabuto was considered capable enough to fight P1 Kakashi on equal footing who has the same speed and three-tome sharingan as Hebi-Sasuke [and can in-fact increase his speed further by opening at least 1-Gate], who was able to keep up with Itachi; this would make zero sense if Kakashi could simply blitz Kabuto and be done with it. Given this Kabuto can obviously also compete with those of that higher-speed class to a certain extent. None of those four characters are going to be lol blitz'd by Itachi and at least Juugo, Kimi, and Suigetsu are completely capable of blocking Itachi's attempts to blitz other members of their team
> 
> Moving on Sasuke was confident Kari w/ sensing could track the movements of Killer-B quick enough that she could warn Team-Taka before V1 Killer-B completed his attacks, it therefore stands to reason she can track Itachi's movements as well, and thus warn her fellow teammates when Itachi is attempting to blindside them with a blitz, enhancing her teams ability to react even further. Sasuke's Sharingan would also help in keeping tracking of when Itachi is molding chakra to utilize Shunshin or channeling chakra to his legs to prep a blitz. Then there are of course Bushin tactics to mitigate the threat of a blitz even further.



Everyone should probably look at this. Itachi would get dominated if he just tried his base. He needs the MS. I personally think he wins. With the MS as Susano can be used and no one is getting through that.


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