# Current Naruto Uzumaki vs Saber



## Gundam Meister (Jul 14, 2012)

PIS and CIS : Off
Blood lust: On
Starting distance: 50 meters
Battlefield: Hyperbolic Time Chamber 

Scenario 1 : No Avalon
Scenario 2 : Avalon allowed 

So how does this fight go


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## Sieghart92 (Jul 14, 2012)

Saber wins both with ease.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

Excaliblast > HST


though I suppose he might get off a roar before he dies


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 14, 2012)

Naruto swings his rasengan and atomizes Saber with rasenganblast


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Is this FKM Naruto? if yes, are you people really suggesting he would stand there waiting for Saber to use Excalibur?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

she doesn't take long to use it, does she ? 

like vs Gil


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

So every Excalibur blast has the same power? and no it doesn't take time, neither does a roar or chakra arms to hold her down while Naruto blast the fuck out of her.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

I doubt he's tanking Excaliblast tbh


roar is his best bet I'd say

dunno how fast those chakra arms are and she could dodge em ? (she doesn't need to stand still, right ?)


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Never said he would survive a blast, which is debatable until someone get's back with that tetaron jizz.

But IIRC her most powerful blast takes a little time to charge, can't remember well.

And yeah she can try to dodge, but this dude has 9 arms able to cover long distances pretty fast.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

Nasu threads all end up the same


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

With wank from one side and the other calling bullshit? indeed.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

so it's roar vs Excaliblast ?

he hasn't used roar + arms simultaneously anyway


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 14, 2012)

Is there something about the roar that would make him unable to use his arms?


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

You have to be shitting me.....pretty much no one uses a lot of techniques in combination, but in fictional versus we take that possibility because they can.

So it is:

Roar + getting blasted
Chakra arms + getting blasted
Roar + making clones to spam FRS and then she gets blasted for overkill

What does Saber have to stop Naruto? cause both of them won't stand still, but Naruto has way more shit to stop her and kill her, while she doesn't have nothing.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

what about going into Servant intangible spirit form ? 


rematerialize behind him or something


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Oh the spirit argument.........

If we allow that then Naruto still has his sensing skillz so good luck with that.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

yeah I bring it up often since it's pretty broken IMO 


what about it ?




> If we allow that then Naruto still has his sensing skillz so good luck with that.


yeah, but she's still immune to damage there

on the other hand he'd be ready for her rematerializing


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Is bs if you ask me since is used to flee.

Unless I am forgetting an instance in the novel in where some servant used it in the middle of the fight.


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## Gundam Meister (Jul 14, 2012)

Unlike the other Servants Saber doesn't have a intangible spirit form if i remember correctly


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

> Unless I am forgetting an instance in the novel in where some servant used it in the middle of the fight.


not 100% sure, willy or someone might know better




does he have his time limit here btw ?





> Unlike the other Servants Saber doesn't have a intangible spirit form if i remember correctly


was that due to getting gimped by Shirou or because of her special circumstances (brought from her own time, keep memories etc.) ?


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> yeah, but she's still immune to damage there
> 
> on the other hand he'd be ready for her rematerializing



You said it yourself.

He would know where she is and while she waits to rematerialize Naruto can prep a lot of shit and the overkill she would get once she gets tangible isn't even funny.


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## Gundam Meister (Jul 14, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> not 100% sure, willy or someone might know better
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah because her special circumstances she unable to go into intangible spirit form


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> does he have his time limit here btw ?



I think yes.

But if she goes intangible then like I said Naruto has a lot of time until she decides what to do to prep a couple of things.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

this is all assuming he *begins* in BM, right ? 


because starting in base those extra fractions of a second to transform might be too long ...


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

RM on the other hand is instant and he can spam a lot of clones that would give him the time he needs.


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## Hardcore (Jul 14, 2012)

Okay, bloodlust is on.

Naruto would go for his strongest move which is BijuuDama.

He would not use his best move or any strategy while he is bloodlusted except if he has intel.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

> RM on the other hand is instant and he can spam a lot of clones that would give him the time he needs.


not sure about that tbh

clones need to be made with a seal, then cross 50m to get to her (or form a FRS and throw it) .. how far do their chakra arms reach ? 



though if they spread out and she can't tell which is real (could she ?)

how big is Excaliblasts frontal AoE ?


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

The clones would be used to spread out and the seal is pretty much instant to and he doesn't make 2 clones, he makes a shit load of them.

The frontal AOE isn't that big IIRC, easy to avoid.


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## KaiserWombat (Jul 14, 2012)

Naruto loses because he is a jizz-bag


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## Spirit King (Jul 14, 2012)

Saber doesn't have spirit form as far as I can tell because she isn't a heroic spirit, she's not part of the hall of heroes so she lacks certain abilities. Spirit form being one of them.

This was stated in the VN. In return for this she retains memories from previous Grail wars in which other spirits lose.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> Saber doesn't have spirit form as far as I can tell because she isn't a heroic spirit, she's not part of the hall of heroes so she lacks certain abilities. Spirit form being one of them.


ok then, I'll stop wanking it in her matches





*Spoiler*: __ 



though the ability itself is extremely useful in OBD IMO .. for other servants


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Naruto loses because he is a jizz-bag



Not fair Kaiser, that is a game winer argument right there.


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## willyvereb (Jul 14, 2012)

So which version of Saber are we using here?
Fate route?
UBW route with Rin as her master?
Fate/Zero?
The original Arthuria Pendragon?
The difference is slight but still worths a mention.

Anyways, Saber can most likely take BM Naruto's chakra roar by generating a wall of prana.
Just like she did to temporally block Enuma Elish

And again the long charge time for Excalibur is a myth. Saber only requires to swing down her sword with full power to activate the technique.
Not even calling out the Noble Phantasm's name is necessary as it was shown in the fight between Saber Alter and Berserker.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

> So which version of Saber are we using here?
> Fate route?
> UBW route with Rin as her master?
> Fate/Zero?
> ...


strongest version I assume


forgot about prana burst


that can be done while charging Excaliblast, right ?


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

When did she block Enuma Elish?


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## willyvereb (Jul 14, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> When did she block Enuma Elish?


In the final battle against Gilgamesh.
In Fate route.

I don't remember the exact details but Saber was caught by Enuma Elish before she could activate her Noble Phantasm so Saber erected some sort of temporally barrier to stop the attack until she countered with Excalibur.

Although to tell the whole truth even after Saber used Excalibur, she got beaten in the contest of power.

Also the second time she dashed through the remains of Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish after Saber activated Avalon.

Still, there are too many factors to consider for this feat so I'm uncertain about it.
Hence I said that Saber "may" block the Chakra Roar.

That also confirms that Saber cannot move and use Avalon at the same time.





Fluttershy said:


> strongest version I assume
> 
> 
> forgot about prana burst
> ...


That means we're using Arthuria Pendragon, the one with Mach 13+ movements and somewhat stronger stats than Saber's Fate incarnation.

Well, as you can see from the example above Saber apparently can use some sort of prana burst and then unleash Excalibur. Kind of like a pseudo version of her Avalon combo.


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## KaiserWombat (Jul 14, 2012)

Guys, guys, guys



> Naruto loses because he is a jizz-bag



This thread is LONG over, we can all happily walk away from this travesty now~


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## Spirit King (Jul 14, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> So which version of Saber are we using here?
> Fate route?
> UBW route with Rin as her master?
> Fate/Zero?
> ...



I'm not really sure you can apply that to Saber. Typically servants have to call out the name, which is why they use their NP abilities so rarely, otherwise they could use their abilities and the opponent won't neccesarily know which hero they are, due to while they know the ability they don't know the name and certain NP are quite similar.

Not that it matters since talking is a free action.


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## Spirit King (Jul 14, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> When did she block Enuma Elish?



TBF Shirou can block Ea with residual avalon and UBW, and maybe a little PIS but he still did it. It's not impossible Saber could do the same.  Or rather survive a blast.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 14, 2012)

holy shit 17 guests


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> In the final battle against Gilgamesh.
> In Fate route.
> 
> I don't remember the exact details but Saber was caught by Enuma Elish before she could activate her Noble Phantasm so Saber erected some sort of temporally barrier to stop the attack until she countered with Excalibur.
> ...



You mean this:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJF_Pmg6Kdk&list=PLE984C07858EB18AF&index=43&feature=plpp_video[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G3aBMo4wIc&list=PLE984C07858EB18AF&index=45&feature=plpp_video[/YOUTUBE]

Where is the prana burst? she used Exaclibu unless I missed somenthing.



> That means we're using Arthuria Pendragon, the one with Mach 13+ movements and somewhat stronger stats than Saber's Fate incarnation.
> 
> Well, as you can see from the example above Saber apparently can use some sort of prana burst and then unleash Excalibur. Kind of like a pseudo version of her Avalon combo.



Mach 13+ reactions, nothing in that scene indicates she has that kind of movemente speed. And Naruto won't have problems with that speed from what I've read in some threads of him having mach 11 speed.


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## willyvereb (Jul 14, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> I'm not really sure you can apply that to Saber. Typically servants have to call out the name, which is why they use their NP abilities so rarely, otherwise they could use their abilities and the opponent won't neccesarily know which hero they are, due to while they know the ability they don't know the name and certain NP are quite similar.
> 
> Not that it matters since talking is a free action.


Well, even revealing Excalibur's true appearance is enough to discern Saber's identity.

I don't remember anyone saying that Noble Phantasms uncover the identity of the Servant because they have to call out its name.

Perhaps, Rin and the side materials claim that Servants require to invoke the Noble Phantasm's name to use them. But there are feats that contradict this.

Albeit I agree that it's irrelevant in regards to this battle.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Guys, guys, guys
> 
> 
> This thread is LONG over, we can all happily walk away from this travesty now~



But Kaiser we want to be terrible and continue debating the proper way.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 14, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> But Kaiser we want to be terrible and continue debating the proper way.



that just makes you all jizzbags then


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Fucking jizzbags man.


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## Ulti (Jul 14, 2012)

The Big Bad Booty Daddy enters.


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## Sieghart92 (Jul 14, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> TBF Shirou can block Ea with residual avalon and UBW, and maybe a little PIS but he still did it. It's not impossible Saber could do the same.  Or rather survive a blast.



Shirou cannot block Ea with UBW. The only thing he's blocked was the spinning of the gears of Ea and that was enough to break through all 6 shields of Rho Aias and still damage him a little. And I believe it was Archer who used Rho Aias.


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## Amae (Jul 14, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> Mach 13+ reactions, nothing in that scene indicates she has that kind of movemente speed. And Naruto won't have problems with that speed from what I've read in some threads of him having mach 11 speed.


Saber crossed 4 km in under a second with a combination of prana burst and strike air, at least matching Hrunting's speed. It's directly shown for you. No idea what you're talking about here.


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## Sieghart92 (Jul 14, 2012)

Since when was Naruto mach 11?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

Sieghart92 said:


> Since when was Naruto mach 11?


FRS is Mach 11-13, SM and Deva have that combat speed

BM Naruto is >> SM Naruto



anyway, willy, *suppose* she can't withstand chakra-roar with prana wall - what happens then ? what's her durability btw ?


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Amae said:


> The command spell only temporarily restored her to her original strength. She leap with a prana burst and Strike Air.



Go watch that again cause the dude clearly says he gave the command fly aka leap to Saber so she would be able to cover that distance, so you are wrong.



> I already did that in the post you quoted.



Not really.


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## Spirit King (Jul 14, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Well, even revealing Excalibur's true appearance is enough to discern Saber's identity.
> 
> I don't remember anyone saying that Noble Phantasms uncover the identity of the Servant because they have to call out its name.
> 
> ...



The reason why I stated this is I can't think of that many instance where they don't. Saber Alter is an extenuating circumstance, who is pretty far from a regular heroic spirit. Ea does have a name so gil doesn't doesn't to state it to activate it. Gil is not a wielder of any of NP, so he likely doesn't need a name any since he can't bring out the weapons full powers though he can still use the abilities. And most others general say it or are implied to say it.



Sieghart92 said:


> Shirou cannot block Ea with UBW. The only thing he's blocked was the spinning of the gears of Ea and that was enough to break through all 6 shields of Rho Aias and still damage him a little. And I believe it was Archer who used Rho Aias.



No Shirou actually took head on a blast. Rho Aius was used so he could chant UBW.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Short range motion she would be mach 13 due to avoiding the arrow at least (she started dodging from about a body length away (according to the accompanying image with the text), give or take half a meter (shrouding in light makes it hard to say)).
> 
> Won't argue about the long range shit, because I don't know jack about nasuverse.
> 
> I just had to watch that scene recently in a Yusuke thread.



Exactly my point.

Short range indeed, now people try to use this to say she can swing her blade at that speed and cover long distances or some shit, which please correct me if I am wrong is bullshit.


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## Sieghart92 (Jul 14, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> FRS is Mach 11-13, SM and Deva have that combat speed
> 
> BM Naruto is >> SM Naruto
> 
> ...



She also has Avalon in this fight, if that makes any difference. And she can definitely resist chaka-roar with prana, she resisted Enuma elish for less then a second and used Excalibur within that time.


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## Sieghart92 (Jul 14, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> The reason why I stated this is I can't think of that many instance where they don't. Saber Alter is an extenuating circumstance, who is pretty far from a regular heroic spirit. Ea does have a name so gil doesn't doesn't to state it to activate it. Gil is not a wielder of any of NP, so he likely doesn't need a name any since he can't bring out the weapons full powers though he can still use the abilities. And most others general say it or are implied to say it.
> 
> 
> 
> No Shirou actually took head on a blast. Rho Aius was used so he could chant UBW.



"Generic slash: Ea is a formidable weapon even without unleashing Enuma Elish. In Fate/Zero the rotation of Ea's gears alone was compared to the movement of tectonic plates. A casual slash from Ea ripped through 6 of Shirou's Noble Phantasms while Gilgamesh was just spinning up the gears. Although the makeshift shield of Noble Phantasms were enough to save Shirou from certain death and only left him severely injured."

This is what Shirou went up against in UBW. Gil never used Ea blast against him


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Nothing on the videos indicate she used prana burst to resist Enuma Elish, she used Exaclibur and even after that she was fucked up.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

tbh I wouldn't really doubt that swing speed can be any less then short range movement speed


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## willyvereb (Jul 14, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> You mean this:
> 
> Where is the prana burst? she used Exaclibu unless I missed somenthing.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 14, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> Exactly my point.
> 
> Short range indeed, now people try to use this to say she can swing her blade at that speed and cover long distances or some shit, which please correct me if I am wrong is bullshit.



Well, short range IS melee range.

And the arms do move faster than the body in general, so the notion she can move her weapon at mach 13 isn't bullshit from what I understand.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Well, short range IS melee range.
> 
> And the arms do move faster than the body in general, so the notion she can move her weapon at mach 13 isn't bullshit from what I understand.



I see, thanks man.

Still won't make a difference for Naruto since he is more than capable of dodging her attacks.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

> Saber's armor resisted Enuma Elish for less than a second


that's pretty good too


also, her front surface area is so small compared to the surface area of the roar's shockwave

unless he can focus all that power in a real narrow cone


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 14, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Well, short range IS melee range.
> 
> And the arms do move faster than the body in general, so the notion she can move her weapon at mach 13 isn't bullshit from what I understand.



Considering besides reacting to shit, she (or any character for that matter) still needs the physical capacity to dodge/block/deflect/counter-attack/etc.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2012)

For some reason I kept misreading "Saber" and "Solar" and going "WTF are you thinking, OP?"


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## willyvereb (Jul 14, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Well, short range IS melee range.
> 
> And the arms do move faster than the body in general, so the notion she can move her weapon at mach 13 isn't bullshit from what I understand.


Hrunting and Saber met in the mid-way while Archer actually released that arrow first.

I can't see how that isn't considered a movement speed feat.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> For some reason I kept misreading "Saber" and "Solar" and going "WTF are you thinking, OP?"


the Man of Atom is safe, Mike



*Spoiler*: __


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Disregard the first part, read the scene wrong.



> Nah, Saber met Archer's arrow exactly in the mid-point. Despite she moved a bit later.
> She has Mach 13.4+ movements



Short range, yeah.



> Also I never said that it would overwhelm Naruto.
> Even if we wouldn't accept the new Mach 11 calc, being twice as fast as Naruto wouldn't give much advantage for Saber, aside from close combat.



True and even close combat is debatable for this version of Naruto.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

> Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 22 (15 members and 7 guests)
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.              .


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## Amae (Jul 14, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> Go watch that again cause the dude clearly says he gave the command fly aka leap to Saber so she would be able to cover that distance, so you are wrong.


Take your own advice, but I'll do you one better and quote this shit  - "Command Spells allow for the temporary strengthening of servants. A powerful technique that converts that tremendous mana into energy for Servants. Enough power to fill Saber's enormous circuit. The Knight King that ruled all battle fields during the age of legends shall be reborn."

The mana of the command spell was indeed used for "leaping" and is obviously what allowed her to cross that distance, but it's nothing Saber at her strongest (something she's far from as Shirou's servant) wouldn't be capable of replicating with prana burst and Strike Air. Get what I'm saying?



> Not really.


Yeah, really. Hrunting is mach 13+, Saber moved at least as fast with prana burst and Strike Air.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 14, 2012)

It comes down to who shoots first.

The answer is Han shot first.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

ok, so to release Excaliblast she needs to put prana into it and swing it, which she can do @ Mach 13 .. correct ?


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## Sieghart92 (Jul 14, 2012)

In the video it says "Cracks run through every wall of magical energy protecting her". In the period shorter than a second that they endure the attack sabers uses excalibur.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 14, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Hrunting and Saber met in the mid-way while Archer actually released that arrow first.
> 
> I can't see how that isn't considered a movement speed feat.



I'm not well versed enough with nasuverse to tackle that part of Grahf's argument willy.

I can only offer input onto something that doesn't need such knowledge.

Her avoiding the arrow is something I can help clarify.


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## willyvereb (Jul 14, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> EA is powerful but resisting the charge of EA isn't the same as resisting a roar from Naruto that IIRC have larger AOE and *power *by a lot of margin.


Unless the Chakra Roar suddenly got an upgrade from multi city block level, I doubt it.
Also larger AoE means Saber actually has more chance to survive the attack from afar than from a concentrated blast like Ea was.






> Short range, yeah.


Sure, crossing 2 miles faster than a Mach 13.4 arrow is considered "short" nowadays.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Amae said:


> *The mana of the command spell was indeed used for "leaping" and is obviously what allowed her to cross that distance*



Thanks for proving my point.



> but it's nothing Saber at her strongest (something she's far from as Shirou's servant) wouldn't be capable of replicating with prana burst and Strike Air. Get what I'm saying?



Sure when you have feat of her doing it without Shirou using his command spell to make her fly aka lepa we will talk, until then you are still wrong.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

> Unless the Chakra Roar suddenly got an upgrade from multi city block level, I doubt it.


the chakra roar BM Naruto used on 5 bijuus is easily at least town+

they each weigh many thousands of tons (see a few of Wakas calcs ) and were charging at him at full speed (likely the same Mach 11-13, they benefit from being big here)

it stopped their momentum and threw them backwards on their asses


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Sure, crossing 2 miles faster than a Mach 13.4 arrow is considered "short" nowadays.



Sure when you have feat of her doing it without Shirou using his command spell to make her fly aka leap we will talk, until then you are still wrong.

Indeed.


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## willyvereb (Jul 14, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> the chakra roar BM Naruto used on 5 bijuus is easily at least town+
> 
> they each weigh many thousands of tons (see a few of Waka calcs ) and were charging at him at full speed (likely the same *Mach 11-13*, they benefit from being big here)
> 
> it stopped their momentum and threw them backwards on their asses


You're using a previously established speed calc to reinforce another calc.
That'd be calc stacking.

Not to mention that in fiction speed and momentum rarely have a direct relation with each other.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

Anyway I am bored now.

Naruto wins this more times than he looses.

So have a nice day peeps.


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## Ulti (Jul 14, 2012)

Big Poppa Grahf is ya hookup?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 14, 2012)

> You're using a previously established speed calc to reinforce another calc.
> That'd be calc stacking.


I'm not doing it for a new speed calc

I'm doing it for a force calc

wasn't that ok ? 

Chaos, tell me 





> Not to mention that in fiction speed and momentum rarely have a direct relation with each other.


for physical strikes - sure

yet we use CoM for projectiles


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## Amae (Jul 14, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> Sure when you have feat of her doing it without Shirou using his command spell to make her fly aka lepa we will talk, until then you are still wrong.


You mean the command spell that temporarily restored to her original strength (meaning if she couldn't do it, then she wouldn't have been able to it in the first place)? Are you also not aware Saber *used prana burst and Strike Air to leap*? The *command spell only strengthened her* to the point she could move that fast and covered that distance with *prana burst and Strike Air*, that's what I meant - it doesn't prove your point unless you're lacking severe reading comprehension. 

I mean, you say correct you if you're wrong, but you're not really that willing.


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## willyvereb (Jul 14, 2012)

Gahf, are you that desperate?
Let me show you the full quote:


Amae said:


> Take your own advice,  but I'll do you one better and quote this shit  - "Command Spells allow  for the temporary strengthening of servants. A powerful technique that  converts that tremendous mana into energy for Servants. Enough power to  fill Saber's enormous circuit. *The Knight King that ruled all battle  fields during the age of legends shall be reborn.*"


Yeah, so you're even goiing as far as distorting someone else's quote to support your debate?

I'm out there!


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## Sygurgh (Jul 14, 2012)

Comparing Naruto’s Chakra Roar to Enuma Elish is like comparing an ant to an elephant. Enuma Elish easily overwhelms Excalibur, a Noble Phantasm capable of entirely destroying a monster the size of a skyscraper down to nothing. Nothing as in nonexistent or enough energy to make Hiroshima feels like a sneeze. Scratch my previous statement; it’s like comparing an ant to a blue whale. If Saber’s armor can withstand Enuma Elish for a second, then it can withstand the Chakra Roar without any trouble, if the attack is not outright rejected because of Saber’s innate resistance.

It’s not even fanboyism, as I knew from the start of the Anticross thread that the Servants would lose without even knowing a single thing about Anticross other than a few feats.

Naruto can win by using his clones to wear Saber down, but remove them and he stands no chance.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 14, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Gahf, are you that desperate?
> Let me show you the full quote:
> 
> Yeah, so you're even goiing as far as distorting someone else's quote to support your debate?
> ...



Yeah I am really desperated about a fictional versus I can't even sleep because of this.

But let's continue:

You people are using this:



> *The Knight King that ruled all battle fields during the age of legends shall be reborn."*



To prove she has that speed as long as she is her true self.

Now let me show you why that doesn't work:




> I had more to do than get the timing right.
> I have two major problems.
> It would be after the command spell was released that the true worth of emiya shirou would be questioned.



This is Shirou clearly saying how this whole shit depends on him, if Saber had the ability to have that speed just by being her old self then Shirou already made his job of making her that way, but guess what? Shit still depended on him getting the timing right.



> The order of the command spell was "Fly".
> This wasn't metaphorical flight. Literally, Saber will "leap" from here to the roof of center building.



Once again showing how it was an order from Shirou to Saber, now we go back to the same thing, if Saber had that kind of speed by herself why the need of the order? Just make her have her old power like he did and tell her to fuck him up.



> Saber had once fought rider in the past.
> A reenactment of that fight-----no, if I limited movement to a straight line, then by raising the amount of mana for the leaping time, the distance covered will increase.
> If all of the mana of the command spell is used just for "leaping", then it shouldn't be impossible to reduce this long distance to zero....!



The dude explains how he is going to use all of the mana of the command spell aka the command that helped her recover her old power for the leap so she can cover that type of distance.

So once again, if she has that type of speed by just being her old self why does emiya have to use *all of the mana* from the command spell for the leap? this is basically sacrificing power to get speed, which alone tells you she can't generate that speed by just being her old self.



> In accordance to the vow of the holy grail, I the 7th master, order thee.



More proof of this shit depending on shirous order, not Saber.



> That's why the problem is the timing. It was risky to launch her before or at the same time.
> As saber herself would become an arrow, if saber leaps before archer fires, archer will aim at saber.
> Therefore , it had to be inmediately after he fired.
> A difference in 0.1 seconds from the point he fires is when we'll strike.
> ...



Even more proof of how Emiya was the one behind all of this plan, if he fucked up they would die, if Saber has that speed by herself why does she need Emiya? She would just need for him to tell her when to go and done deal, but no, he had to be the one to launch her, cause he was using her like a remote control arow.



> Saber go cut that sucker down.



The order.

And at the end Shirou notes:



> I couldn't see any wounds on Saber, but leaping that far must have been painful.



It was her old self, why would she feel pain? this is something she can do in that state all day errday.......oh wait, she can't.

Mach 13 for melee, yeah, long range? nope.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

> Comparing Naruto’s Chakra Roar to Enuma Elish is like comparing an ant to an elephant.


so you're telling me her armor can tank the *full* power of Enuma Elish for a second ? 


how the fuck does she take damage then ?  from other Servants ?


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 15, 2012)

Her armor can take one second of a 40% EE.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 15, 2012)

Well, Enuma Elish is essentially a Space-Time distortion being fired at you. It's similar to an Excaliblast, basically, only it's a FUCKTON more Powerful. 

If you go by Hype, the gears that Ea possesses were compared to tectonic plates shifting while they were spinning up. Dunno how much Energy that HypeEa would have, as i'm not a Calc person.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

gonna have to pass on hype on this one

tectonic plates is likely some petatons shit - lolNasu


meant feat-wise


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 15, 2012)

LolEa

LolNasu

All that's missing is Ghey Bowl for a trademark Nasu thread


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

Gay   Bulge


----------



## TedMk2 (Jul 15, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> Gay Bulge


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRwy1Nu5Q2I[/YOUTUBE]
Sums up the thread quite well, really


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 15, 2012)

Lancer's Gay Bulge is the reason he never survives.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

So instead of defending your position you’re just going to ignore canon. That’s called conceding.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

Saber only needs to swing her sword to perform her Noble Phantasm; the last thing Naruto wants to do is entering Bijuu mode, as it would mean an instant death.

Saber can defend herself by using prana burst. It’s a momentary defense and not something that she can use continuously. It’s probably what happened here, unless you prefer to argue that it was all the work of her armor. I’d rather go with the more logical choice.

Saber has instinct, Mach 20+ reactions, and Avalon. She wouldn’t be send flying from a chakra roar (that would have no hope of happening as transforming means death) because she technically wouldn’t even be in the same dimension as the chakra roar.

Bijuu Mode = Death
Chakra Roar = Death
Bijuu Dama = Death


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

you're saying she's gonna use Avalon against the roar ? that works, but it also means she cannot charge Excaliblast or even move (IIRC) while in Avalon

when she's out of Avalon he can easily do more roars - don't see it helping much there

my question is what does she do against it barring Avalon ?


transforming is a good strategy IMO, because roar is very fast and effective 

if he goes for clones, I don't see how he doesn't eat an Excaliblast, since the distance is 50m (this favors her)




> Saber can defend herself by using prana burst. It’s a momentary defense and not something that she can use continuously. It’s probably what happened here, unless you prefer to argue that it was all the work of her armor. I’d rather go with the more logical choice.


and how much durability does this brief burst/armor give her ?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

not to mention there is a non-Avalon scenario


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

Saber can use Excalibur in less than one tenth of a second, probably less. She had the time to use it against Rider, the fastest Servant, in a direct confrontation at close range. The anime tends to have Saber strike a dramatic pose, after which she takes her time to perform an enormous swing while yelling at the tops of her lungs. That’s not really how it happens. She just has to swing her sword.

Naruto transforms.
Saber uses Excalibur.

Naruto transforms.
Saber does nothing.
Naruto uses Chakra Roar.
Saber uses Avalon.
Chakra Roar is done.
Saber uses Excalibur.

Monster Caster had Saber caged in tentacles. One burst from Saber was enough to instantly destroy them. It probably has something to do with her dragon blood. Dragons are the strongest magical creatures in the Nasuverse, with an absurd magical resistance and an enormous capacity to create magical energy, something she inherited. Tanking Ea for a brief moment, no matter its output, should be by far her best defensive feat.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 15, 2012)

She can Use Excalibur while Avalon is Active, that's how she beat Gil in the Fate Route

>Gil Uses Enuma Elish
>Saber's Armor Defends against it for one second
> Excaliblast to push it back a bit further
> Avalon
> Release Armor
>Charge in
>Excalibur to the face.


----------



## Sieghart92 (Jul 15, 2012)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> She can Use Excalibur while Avalon is Active, that's how she beat Gil in the Fate Route
> 
> >Gil Uses Enuma Elish
> >Saber's Armor Defends against it for one second
> ...



Saber cannot attack while in Avalon. She's in the land of fairies while she uses avalon.

The point of Avalon is to stop a blast and then exit it and counter with Avalon. But from what I read on this post Naruto can spam his attacks, and he has no recoil time like Gil.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

He can’t spam Bijuu Dama or Chakra Roar because they take much time to make and are a sure way to get killed. He is better off attacking with Light bulb mode and Light bulb clones. Return of the King Saber should be more than a match for any clone.

Mach10+ Speed Bursts.
Mach20+ Reaction Speed.
Striking speed above anything Naruto has ever shown.
Instinct bordering precognition.
High Endurance (Lancer (Rank C) fought Gilgamesh for three days straight, True Saber’s Rank should be at least Rank A)
Insane Luck (B Ranked Saber managed to survive a sure-kill unavoidable technique thanks to her luck, True Saber should be at least rank A+).
Insane Mana Regeneration.
Instant God Mod with Avalon.
Extremely fast Excalibur (speed of a regular strike).
Excalibur can be used as an omnidirectional attack.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 15, 2012)

> Mach20+ Reaction Speed.
> Striking speed above anything Naruto has ever shown.



These 2 are bullshit, and I've already debated willy over why.

He didn't bother replying to my last counter argument, I consider that a full on concession.

Don't spout bullshit please, especially when you don't understand why they are in the first place.

I'll gladly go over why, but seriously, this is obnoxious.


----------



## Sieghart92 (Jul 15, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> He can’t spam Bijuu Dama or Chakra Roar because they take much time to make and are a sure way to get killed. He is better off attacking with Light bulb mode and Light bulb clones. Return of the King Saber should be more than a match for any clone.
> 
> Mach10+ Speed Bursts.
> Mach20+ Reaction Speed.
> ...



Lancer didn't fight Gil for 3 days strength, it was for about 10 hours. And Lancer is immune to projectiles or something.

Anyways I don't see how Naruto can beat Saber. I'm pretty sure her excaliblast is faster then any of Narutos moves.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 15, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> These 2 are bullshit, and I've already debated willy over why.
> 
> He didn't bother replying to my last counter argument, I consider that a full on concession.
> 
> ...



Don't bother with them Chaos, Nasuverse wankers won't stop spouting the same bullshit even after you prove them wrong.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 15, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Mach10+ Speed Bursts



In melee yeah.



> Mach20+ Reaction Speed.
> Striking speed above anything Naruto has ever shown.



Like Chaos said, bullshit.



> High Endurance (Lancer (Rank C) fought Gilgamesh for three days straight, True Saber?s Rank should be at least Rank A)



Irrelevant.



> Insane Luck (B Ranked Saber managed to survive a sure-kill unavoidable technique thanks to her luck, True Saber should be at least rank A+).



Even more irrelevant.



> Insane Mana Regeneration.



Irrelevant since she would die once Naruto lands a hit on her.



> Instant God Mod with Avalon.



Instant she can't do anything while in Avalon mode.



> Extremely fast Excalibur (speed of a regular strike).



Just because you say extremely fast doesn't mean Naruto can't dodge it and care to show the AOE of this extremely fast excalibur?



> Excalibur can be used as an omnidirectional attack.



Wut?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v4BVoU0EdY&feature=relmfu[/YOUTUBE]

I hope you are not talking about this, since that was Saber using the light from Exaclibur to vanish those shadows.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

Durr Durr Narutowankers Durr Durr…

I must have confused Lancer fighting for three days with something else, my bad…

I say extremely fast because some people think that she must strike a pose and invoke the spirits of the former heroes or something, like she did in the new anime.

In Heaven’s Feel Excalibur was blocked by Rho Aias and Bellerophon, so its power is unknown.
In Fate she intercepted a charging Bellerophon and the attack was spanning several kilometers in a straight line.
In Ataraxia she put the tip of Excalibur into the ground and unleashed an omnidirectional blast.

The Insane Luck is more than relevant, as its less luck and more fate manipulation. B was enough to avoid an unavoidable attack; A+ should have even more of an effect. It has nothing to do with common luck, so it shouldn’t be affected by the rules of equalization of the battledome, unless having chakra and mana equalized allows Saber to stick to trees of something.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 15, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Durr Durr Narutowankers Durr Durr…



Aww butthurt already?



> I say extremely fast because some people think that she must strike a pose and invoke the spirits of the former heroes or something, like she did in the new anime.



Extremely fast still doesn't mean anything and still waiting for the AOE of this attack.



> In Heaven’s Feel Excalibur was blocked by Rho Aias and Bellerophon.



So?



> In Fate she intercepted a charging Bellerophon and the attack was spanning several kilometers in a straight line.



A charging Bellerophon that IIRC max speed is 500 mph.



> In Ataraxia she put the tip of Excalibur into the ground and unleashed an omnidirectional blast.



An omnidirectional light blast that didn't destroy a single building or kill anyone but the shadows, yeah.



> The Insane Luck is more than relevant, as its less luck and more fate manipulation. B was enough to avoid an unavoidable attack; A+ should have even more effect. It has nothing to do with common luck, so it shouldn’t be affected by the rules of equalization of the battledome, unless having chakra and mana equalized allows Saber to stick to trees of something.



If you can't figure out why this whole luck thing is irrelevant then you have a lot to learn.


----------



## Hardcore (Jul 15, 2012)

Some stuff caught my eyes.



> use Excalibur in less than one tenth of a second



You could have said less than 0.1, but from where did you get that exact time ?

And secondly this is bloodlusted, why would Naruto go for a roar if he has NO intel ?

A bloodlusted character would go for his strongest attack, and it is BijuuDama.

He won't play the safe way if he is bloodlusted and has no intel.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

If defending a character in a discussion means being a wanker, does it mean that everyone in the battledome is a wanker, or are you just partial to the Nasuverse?

I didn’t play Ataraxia as I don’t speak Japanese, so I took the feat from someone else from the forum. Should have confirmed the thing…


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 15, 2012)

And a tenth of a second is fucking forever in a battle between hypersonics, just putting that out there.

Might want to look for a better charge.




> Durr Durr Narutowankers Durr Durr…




Don't cast stones Sygurgh, lest you look like a hypocrite 

Oh, wait.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

I’ll say it another way then. She was able to use Excalibur in a close ranged battle against someone faster than her with her agility gimped from being reduced to a Berserker. Tenth of a second was because I didn’t have an exact idea and didn’t want to put too low a number.

My post about the Roar Thingy was an answer to someone else. I didn’t bring the point on my own.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 15, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> If defending a character in a discussion means being a wanker, does it mean that everyone in the battledome is a wanker, or are you just partial to the Nasuverse?



Nothing wrong with defending the character, the wanking comes from you saying the same debunked things over and over again.

And actually I like Nasuverse, I just don't like the wank.



> I didn’t play Ataraxia as I don’t speak Japanese, so I took the feat from someone else from the forum. Should have confirmed the thing…



Confirmation is indeed a good thing to do.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> Nothing wrong with defending the character, the wanking comes from you saying the same debunked things over and over again.
> 
> And actually I like Nasuverse, I just don't like the wank.
> 
> ...



If I was a wanker I’d insist that as she could unleash a light to defeat the shadow monsters then she could theoretically injure Naruto the same way. I didn’t call the other guy who said that Naruto would Chakra Roar her to death a wanker. I watched and played everything that was translated, but I can’t exactly refer to a translation that doesn’t exist to verify a feat.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Don't cast stones Sygurgh, lest you look like a hypocrite
> 
> Oh, wait.



Does this forum have a campaign against the Nasuverse? This post was a sarcastic answer to someone calling me a wanker for defending one side of a debate.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 15, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Does this forum have a campaign against the Nasuverse?





Wow...

A series as well liked as Nasuverse?  You're high right?



> This post was a sarcastic answer to someone calling me a wanker for defending one side of a debate.



Nope.

Grahf had clearly not been calling you a wanker in the post above that one.

Then you complain in another post about this.



> If defending a character in a discussion means being a wanker, does it mean that everyone in the battledome is a wanker, or are you just partial to the Nasuverse?



So, yes, you're acting like a hypocrite.

EDIT - Ah, I see, grahf had a post above that.

Carry on then.

Still, try responding without the bitchiness.


----------



## ggultra2764 (Jul 15, 2012)

Naruto's biggest problems in this match will be Avalon (for scenario #1) and trying to get around Saber's precog-like instincts. He's royally screwed in match #1 since Saber could use Avalon if she gets desperate. For the second match, it would be a more closer call since Naruto could match Saber in speed and destructive potential, but Saber's instincts would ultimately allow her to anticipate and prevail against Naruto's attacks.


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## Spirit King (Jul 15, 2012)

ggultra2764 said:


> Naruto's biggest problems in this match will be Avalon (for scenario #1) and trying to get around Saber's precog-like instincts. He's royally screwed in match #1 since Saber could use Avalon if she gets desperate. For the second match, it would be a more closer call since Naruto could match Saber in speed and destructive potential, but Saber's instincts would ultimately allow her to anticipate and prevail against Naruto's attacks.



TBF The AoE of Naruto's attacks don't make dodging particularily viable, almost precog or not. And the precog itself is fairly hit and miss. Berserker F/SN has it (at the same rank) and while he is mad he should still be able to dodge plenty of the usual attacks against people who don't have it especially since he generally has a speed advantage.


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## ggultra2764 (Jul 15, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> TBF The AoE of Naruto's attacks don't make dodging particularily viable, almost precog or not.



Saber should be able to recognize anything potent like the Bijuu Bomb to be something she can't fully dodge its area of effect where in that case, she could make use of an Excaliblast or Strike Air to counter. 



> And the precog itself is fairly hit and miss. Berserker F/SN has it (at the same rank) and while he is mad he should still be able to dodge plenty of the usual attacks against people who don't have it especially since he generally has a speed advantage.



Only against foes that either have precog abilities themselves (F/SN Assassin and Berserker for instance) or significantly greater power output and stats than she can hold up against. Naruto doesn't have the former and Naruto is about her equal in stats. So this is a moot point.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

What is the best striking speed feat Naruto has ever shown?


----------



## lambda (Jul 15, 2012)

Saber's magic resistance no sells everything. Next.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

I wasn’t the one to say it.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

> Naruto transforms.
> Saber uses Excalibur.


I was talking about him starting in BM 

though like B and other perfect jins he should be able to enter BM instantly from base, he hasn't shown that yet though IIRC




> Saber uses Avalon.
> *Chakra Roar is done.*
> Saber uses Excalibur.


after the bolded he uses another roar 




> He can?t spam Chakra Roar


yes he can .. it's a fucking roar .. possibly literal - like yelling




> Chakra Roar





> they take much time to make


lol



I can see him having a shot in a non-Avalon scenario .. maybe they kill each other  (if she doesn't have Avalon) .. he doesn't even need to fully finish a bijuudama, if he's interrupted it goes off anyway like KN6's/Kyuubi's did


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

I said spamming as in, while he has enough Chakra to abuse the technique, he can’t link them fast enough to avoid taking an Excaliblast to the face. Unless you have a scan of Naruto using the technique two times in a row with little to no downtime, then he can’t. Saber’s instinct lets her make the best use of every little opening.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

create a blade of light
create a blade of light
create a blade of light



so how fast is Excalibur then ? 

still 1/10 sec ? 






> I said spamming as in, while he has enough Chakra to abuse the technique, he can’t link them quick enough to avoid taking an Excaliblast to the face. Unless you have a scan of Naruto using the technique two times in a row with little to no downtime, then he can’t.





> yes he can .. it's a fucking roar .. possibly literal - like yelling





and he doesn't need to spam actually - only use it the next time after she leaves Avalon


if she doesn't use Avalon for it - she is sent flying, it's all physical force


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

What did you intend to prove with theses scans?

Excalibur should take very little time, as a gimped Saber used it in close combat against the fastest Servant seen in both wars, as I have already said. Both were easily hypersonic and meters from each other.

Naruto finishes roaring and dies.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

> What did you intent to prove with theses scans?


the speed of the roar you asked for (scans) and then edited your post completely




> Excalibur should take very little time


so does a roar

how little ? 



anyway, roar may work or it may not, that's his best bet I think






> Naruto finishes roaring and dies.


or he starts charging a bijuudama while Saber is making like a bird


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

I added one sentence to my post about the instinct and the hypersonic speed. That’s addingnot heavy editing. Not more than your own edit.

What was the distance?
What was the speed of the tailed-beasts?
Where is it stated that Naruto doesn’t leave even one once of opening after using the Chakra Roar?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

> What was the distance?


you can read a scan, yes ? 



> What was the speed of the tailed-beasts?


probably low double digits charging like that



> Where is it stated that Naruto doesn’t leave even one once of opening after using the Chakra Roar?


wtf is that supposed to mean





> Because you need to prove that there is no opening for Saber to take advantage of. Avalon is near instant.


Avalon = invincible, but she can do nothing inside it .. not move, not charge Excalibur

leave Avalon --> get another roar in face


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## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

Naruto redirects the bombs but there is no clear indication as to his new position and his distance to the tailed-beasts. Your approximation of the tailed-beasts moving in the double-digits is extreme guesswork.

Saber can’t do anything inside Avalon, but its activation is near instant. She drops Avalon the moment the technique is done. The thing you have to prove is that Naruto leaves no opening at all after using Chakra Roar, because in your scans he is just chilling. If it was Saber instead of the Tailed-Beasts he’d be dead.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

he is chilling because he has some short-lived new-found swag 


here he will use another roar again when necessary




> Avalon the instant the Chakra Roar is done.


it's "done" the moment it leaves his mouth


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## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

I need proof that the moment the Chakra Roar is starting to wind down he doesn’t leave even one tenth of a second of an opening. Or else he takes an Excaliblast to the face.


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## Hardcore (Jul 15, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> it's "done" the moment it leaves his mouth



Haha, so how fast would someone need to dodge it ?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

the whole point is assuming he can roar her before an Excaliblast is finished

for the sake of discussion I assume he can (we don't know 100% anyway, both are of comparable speed and fast attacks, but roar = no charge at all)


if he can't, then he just eats the blast right at the very beginning, since this is his fastest attack and if even that can't interrupt Excaliblast in time then what is he supposed to do here


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

You remove Avalon. But even then Saber can no sell Divine Spells with Shirou as her master, so I don’t even know if the Chakra Roar would have much of an effect. It would be much more of an even match though. If he doesn’t bother with Bijuu Mode and spams RM Clones he would eventually overwhelm her.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

HardCore said:


> Haha, so how fast would someone need to dodge it ?


damn fast 

the cat bijuu was mid-leap and the turtle was reaching for them and he still transformed + roared faster then either action finished


if he's already transformed I assume just a roar is even faster


----------



## Hardcore (Jul 15, 2012)

So if Sasuke dodged a roar ?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

HardCore said:


> So if Sasuke dodged a roar ?




idk, it's an AoE too, how would he dodge

probably tanks in a Susanoo


----------



## Spirit King (Jul 15, 2012)

ggultra2764 said:


> Saber should be able to recognize anything potent like the Bijuu Bomb to be something she can't fully dodge its area of effect where in that case, she could make use of an Excaliblast or Strike Air to counter.
> 
> 
> 
> Only against foes that either have precog abilities themselves (F/SN Assassin and Berserker for instance) or significantly greater power output and stats than she can hold up against. Naruto doesn't have the former and Naruto is about her equal in stats. So this is a moot point.



Your not getting what I'm saying, I'm saying it's not straight up precog, meaning unlike regular precog where if two people were of the same speed the one with precog would win this is not such a scenario. Sometimes Sabers instinct kicks in sometimes it doesn't. She can't predict an opponents moves hence why Archer had to outright tell her not to use excaliblast, she didn't figure out not to do that herself, and why plenty of people slower or of same speed as berserker have managed to hit him just fine.   

So it's not a she beats Naruto because of instinct she it's she may beat him if instinct kicks in, but it's far from a certainity like most true precog is.


----------



## Lucifeller (Jul 15, 2012)

One thing to keep in mind is that for Servants, Luck is actually a factor. And if memory serves, Saber's Luck rating is pretty high... high enough to let her do extremely unlikely feats through sheer dumb luck.

It's something to be kept in mind when dealing with Servants. Luck rank has meaning - it's not simple "Oh I found a penny" luck, it's "Somehow I was standing in the exact precise spot that'd let me dodge a bullethell barrage even though I didn't know the pattern, ain't that a coincidence" luck.

Which in practical terms means Naruto will have a heck of a time even hitting her. Most Servants hit her because they have attacks that can ignore high Luck, and even then they often don't work as intended.

Just saying...


----------



## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 15, 2012)

Naruto has Shounen Hero luck. That's at least EX rank


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

But Naruto’s luck can’t be transcribed into Nasuverse’s luck, because luck is actually passive fate manipulation. Saber’s luck can go from D (Sakura) to B (Shirou) to A+ (Rin). B Rank was enough to survive an unavoidable one-hit kill technique.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2012)

dat luck


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 15, 2012)

Fucking PIS stat.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 15, 2012)

I can't believe people are really suggesting this luck thing......OBD pls.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

It’s not like you can avoid Gae Bolg by tripping on a rock or something. It’s a curse that never misses and manipulates casualty. Unless fate manipulation is banned from the battledome, in which case you’re denying Remilia Scarlet’s existence.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 15, 2012)

Sygurgh pls.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 15, 2012)

It's just, this adds a variable of pure speculation.

Meaning, what you may be suggesting could happen, but you have no way of proving that outside of the story.

It's not like some arbitrary ki pocket is going to open up in some expansive AOE without such a showing occurring in your series now.

Which is pretty much the only thing it'd be good for here.


----------



## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 15, 2012)

Not like she uses her fate manipulation in the games anyway.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 15, 2012)

I say Saber's luck makes Naruto hyperventilate and die.

It is plausible.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

So instead of trying to incorporate her fate manipulation stats into the battle we just ignore the ability that prevented her from dying in her first battle when it was only B ranked? That’s called gimping.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 15, 2012)

hyperventilates, trips, breaks his neck, and then die 

that's the best option


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

You guys are hilarious; I’m dying right here.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 15, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> hyperventilates, trips, breaks his neck, and then die
> 
> that's the best option



I agree with this scenario.

/thread.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 15, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> So instead of trying to incorporate her fate manipulation stats into the battle we just ignore the ability that prevented her from dying in her first battle when it was only B ranked? That?s called gimping.



more like it's vague as shit and it's an ability she doesn't actively use 

unless you're going to seriously suggest that nardo's wide-area blasts will keep on miraculously missing her or something 

it's far too murky an area to take into account


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 15, 2012)

Let’s just remove their abilities and make it a fistfight.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 15, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> I say Saber's luck makes Naruto hyperventilate and die.
> 
> It is plausible.





Crimson Dragoon said:


> hyperventilates, trips, breaks his neck, and then die
> 
> that's the best option



These are the only solutions.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 15, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> I say Saber's luck makes Naruto hyperventilate and die.
> 
> It is plausible.





Crimson Dragoon said:


> hyperventilates, trips, breaks his neck, and then die
> 
> that's the best option





Grαhf said:


> I agree with this scenario.
> 
> /thread.



Her luck summons Id and DEBIRUMAN and they run people over in the Impala. It's G-Canon.



Crimson Dragoon said:


> *more like it's vague as shit and it's an ability she doesn't actively use *
> 
> unless you're going to seriously suggest that nardo's wide-area blasts will keep on miraculously missing her or something
> 
> it's far too murky an area to take into account



More passive really but it's more for things like certain H4xs. Not like her B rank luck compares to Shiro's plot armor.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 16, 2012)

all that luck got her Shirou as a master

luckiest girl in the world indeed


----------



## Amae (Jul 16, 2012)

The best end for Saber being one of UBW's as Rin's servant is no coincidence.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 16, 2012)

Rin can take proper care of a Servant


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## Amae (Jul 16, 2012)

By replenishing her mana.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

I was just searching for a few more facts on Cloud and Saber on Google when I stumbled on a similar thread on moviecodec. I didn’t know such a place existed. It’s a den of evil, populated by scatterbrained morons and children. I must take a shower.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

and .. Cloud ?


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## Ice (Jul 17, 2012)

Amae said:


> By replenishing her mana.



Would you mind elaborating on the methods used? 

*Spoiler*: __


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

Cloud is near light speed.
Cloud has enough power to destroy the world.
Cloud can tank continental attacks.
Materia isn’t magic so it can bypass magical resistance.
Excalibur can’t scratch Cloud.
Cloud can bypass Avalon because he can sense and kill spirits.
Etc…


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## Tir (Jul 17, 2012)

To be fair, according to the writer of FFVII, Loz was so fast that as if teleporting, and Cloud reacted to that kind of speed while gravely injured and ganged. Not saying Cloud LS though.


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## Amae (Jul 17, 2012)

You are aware that's completely meaningless, right?


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

According to the novel, Saber’s strikes against Lancer were nearing light speed. Sometimes feats have to be taken with a grain of salt.


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## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jul 17, 2012)

So, it pretty much comes down to who gets in a hit first. Avlon can block anything Naruto throws at Saber, but it won't give her room for a comeback, as it prevents her from taking any actions while it is active. She could potentially survive Naruto's attacks for a short period of time due to tanking a less than full power Ea for a second, but that really is pretty ambiguous. She isn't tanking more than one attack anyway and Naruto can spam the shit. Naruto isn't tanking an Excaliblast, but we don't know if the attack is fast enough to actually activate before Saber dies. Assuming it is, Saber can win. If someone wants to clarify the speed issue of Excalibur, then I think we might have a winner.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

There is no speed issue with either Excalibur or Avalon. Avalon is pretty much instant, and Saber with her agility gimped had the time to use Excalibur while fighting in close quarters against the fastest Servant of the Fate franchise.

PS: The Cloud Thing was just for curiosity sake, but I was literally struck dumb by the abyssal levels of the moviecodec’s posters. It made the discussion going on in this thread look like a reunion of the world’s best minds.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

~BLAZxBLUE~ said:


> So, it pretty much comes down to who gets in a hit first. Avlon can block anything Naruto throws at Saber, but it won't give her room for a comeback, as it prevents her from taking any actions while it is active. She could potentially survive Naruto's attacks for a short period of time due to tanking a less than full power Ea for a second, but that really is pretty ambiguous. She isn't tanking more than one attack anyway and Naruto can spam the shit. Naruto isn't tanking an Excaliblast, but we don't know if the attack is fast enough to actually activate before Saber dies. Assuming it is, Saber can win. If someone wants to clarify the speed issue of Excalibur, then I think we might have a winner.


pretty much


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

My opinion on this fight has never changed.

If Naruto opens the fight with BM mode, he dies. If Naruto opens the fight with anything but RM mode and RM clones, he dies. If Naruto opens the fight with RM mode and RM clones, he wins most of the time.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

so he's fast enough to go into RM, make clones and spread them before Excaliblast fires, but a roar is totally useless


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

In my own head he has always been allowed the first move, or else there would be no fight to argue about. Base Naruto is pitifully weak and would get killed in the time it takes to blink.

Saber has the speed, instinct, protection and (luck) to avoid getting quickly overwhelmed by Naruto. The tactic Naruto should adopt is to avoid giving her a target in the first place. In time she should fall.

I’m very tempted to have her lucky enough to hit the original, but that would be wandering too far into wanking territory. I’m thinking it very hard though.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

> Base Naruto is pitifully weak and would get killed in the time it takes to blink.


not really since both BM (at least human-sized version for now) and RM are instant and require zero movement


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> My opinion on this fight has never changed.
> 
> If Naruto opens the fight with BM mode, he dies.



Naruto was able to intercept 5 point blank bijuu bombs that were already fired from a good distance without problem, so unless you show me how fast and how big is the AOE of the Excaliblast I am going to say:

Nope.jpg.



> If Naruto opens the fight with anything but RM mode and RM clones, he dies.





> Unless you show me how fast and how big is the AOE of the Excaliblast I am going to say:
> 
> Nope.jpg




So get to it.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> In my own head he has always been allowed the first move, or else there would be no fight to argue about. Base Naruto is pitifully weak and would get killed in the time it takes to blink.



Well good thing his transformations are instant thus this part is irrelevant.



> Saber has the speed



Melee speed, not long range to avoid his AOE.



> instinct



Useless.



> protection



She gets hit once and dies.



> and (luck) to avoid getting quickly overwhelmed by Naruto.



I agree, her luck will surely give her the win with the scenario CD presented.



> I?m very tempted to have her lucky enough to hit the original, but that would be wandering too far into wanking territory. I?m thinking it very hard though.



Wanking? pfffff no such thing.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

It’s not clear whether or not the transformation is instant or just really fast. I might have forgotten as I have only read the second part of the manga once but I don’t think the timeframe was ever specified. Is there a scan with a precise timeframe?

Naruto’s first action: Transformation.
Saber’s first action: Excalibur.

I’m sure I’m repeating myself, but she was able to use Excalibur in close quarter against the fastest Server ever summoned. That’s a very short amount of time. It’s not certain that Naruto can transform in time to avoid the attack.



Grαhf said:


> Naruto was able to intercept 5 point blank bijuu bombs that were already fired from a good distance without problem, so unless you show me how fast and how big is the AOE of the Excaliblast I am going to say:
> 
> Nope.jpg.



The point is that he was already transformed. There is no doubt that he was absurdly fast, but the bombs weren’t that hard of a move to predict. Even then, Excalibur is should be faster and wielded by something more skillful than a remote controlled beast. Excalibur’s AOE was large enough to encompass Caster in his monster form, so something between forty and one hundred meters should be the largest AOE ever seen.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

of course there is no timeframe, one panel there is no RM/BM, next there is

that's "instant" in a manga

and requires zero movement, not even to raise your sword and swing




> I’m sure I’m repeating myself, but she was able to use Excalibur in close quarter against the fastest Server ever summoned.


which instance specifically are you talking about ? Gil or something else ?

video for this specific instance ? 



> That’s a very short amount of time.


how short


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

Should I use panels of the Fate manga to find instance of instant movement? The manga format doesn?t have an enough amount of precision to allow us to have an idea of a timeframe. There is a difference between fast and instant.


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 17, 2012)

No, because the fate manga isnt canon, the VN is. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it goes.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

That wasn’t my point. I was just saying that just because something changed between two frames doesn’t mean that the action that happened between them is instant.

It we had a panel showing the tailed-beasts’ bomb travelling, followed by a panel of a base Naruto, followed by a travel of Naruto flashing all over the place to reflect them, and a general idea of a bomb’s speed, the timing of the transformation could have been calculated. Declaring it instant just because of the lack of timeframe seems too convenient.


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 17, 2012)

Well was there a short cutoff or something to something else when he did it? Was it implied that alot of time passed?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

that's the best you're gonna get from a manga

still needs zero movement, just thought

and still no concrete timeframe for Excalibur too



I did post earlier that he changed into giant form *and* unleashed a roar while a bijuu was mid-leap and another was reaching forwards with it's claw


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

It’s a bit hard to find feats from a visual novel. I don’t have the game installed or a save game. I might take the time later to search on YouTube. Is willyvereb’s word to be trusted? I took some things from his posts and respect thread as he seems to be more knowledgeable on the Nasuverse and appear to be a respected moderator.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

willy's ok 


anyway, if you post it I'll watch it, but still agree with ~BLAZxBLUE~ that speed is key, both fast, whoever is a bit faster - wins

we can't really determine speed to *that* precision

that about sums it up for me




also - what exactly is Excalibur's DC ? We have a possible teratons yield :33, but that's somewhat contested

if that's not legit - what's her next best DC feat with it ? would that be vaporizing/atomizing Monster Caster ? Or something else ? Preferabbly environment DC calcalable into TNT tons and not just - 'it briefly struggled against non-full power Ea' or 'it killed Pegasus, which has defence like dragons' etc etc

certainly currently Naruto can't tank it anyway, but he might get some durability feats some day ..


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> It’s not clear whether or not the transformation is instant or just really fast. I might have forgotten as I have only read the second part of the manga once but I don’t think the timeframe was ever specified. Is there a scan with a precise timeframe?





			
				Fluttershy said:
			
		

> of course there is no timeframe, one panel there is no RM/BM, next there is
> 
> that's "instant" in a manga
> 
> and requires zero movement, not even to raise your sword and swing



Indeed.




> Naruto’s first action: Transformation.
> Saber’s first action: Excalibur.



Naruto’s first action: Transformation (instant) then get out of the way.
Saber’s first action: Excalibur (still waiting for the speed and AOE of this)



> I’m sure I’m repeating myself, but she was able to use Excalibur in close quarter against the fastest Server ever summoned. That’s a very short amount of time. It’s not certain that Naruto can transform in time to avoid the attack.



That doesn't tell us anything, to say Naruto can't dodge you have to prove how fast it is and the AOE it has.

And it is certain that Naruto can transform and get out of the way cause:

The God Of High School

Naruto is where the octopus is, Gai and Kakashi are the two dots in the middle of the 1 and 4 tailed beasts.

The God Of High School

He tranforms instantly.

The God Of High School

Point blank attacks already fired.

The God Of High School 

He moves after the bombs are fired and covers that distance like it is nothing.

So please show me how fast is Excalibur and how big it's AOE cause as it stands Naruto would dodge it without problem.



> The point is that he was already transformed.



So? he started to move after the bombs where fired.



> There is no doubt that he was absurdly fast,



Indeed, fast enough to dodge until you prove otherwise.



> but the bombs weren’t that hard of a move to predict.



You have to be shitting me.....this is irrelevant, the bombs were fired POINT BLANK and he started to move AFTER they were fired.



> Even then, Excalibur is should be faster



Sure, how fast? cause I just showed you Naruto intercepting an attack that was already in movement and at point blank, so please provide proof instead of stating your opinion.



> and wielded by something more skillful than a remote controlled beast.



Serioulsy......



> Excalibur’s AOE was large enough to encompass Caster in his monster form, so something between forty and one hundred meters should be the largest AOE ever seen.



Piece of cake for Naruto.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

It doesn’t have much feat in term of environmental damage. The war was rather low-key and combats theoretically limited to the night. Caster’s instance was an exception because, well… the guy had just transformed into a huge monster in the middle of a city.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

Then sucks for you cause you need those feats to claim Naruto won't be able to dodge when he has feats of dodging things of the nature I just posted.


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## Ulti (Jul 17, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> also - what exactly is Excalibur's DC ? We have a possible teratons yield :33, but that's somewhat contested
> 
> if that's not legit - what's her next best DC feat with it ? would that be vaporizing/atomizing Monster Caster ?



Wasn't the Monster Caster feat the one that gave the 100 teraton figure?


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

I know the panel you showed me was impressive, but events have to be placed in their context. To reach Mach is to be able to move over three hundred forty meters per second. No one has ever said that Naruto wasn’t fast. Like you or someone else might have said before in this thread, short distances take little to no time to cross for characters of Naruto’s caliber.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

The output of her blast is important, but in this case speed and AOE are the things that matter the most, although depending on the final number we can argue if Naruto can or cannot tank it.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

Even if we accept the atoms disintegration is just a flowery description, there is the fact that Caster could regenerate from this:



> Saber and Rider reacted immediately and jumped away to avoid being caught in the attack, but Caster’s sea monster was in no ways so agile. The four Noble Phantasms hit it head on. Their power, enough to split mountains, blew one-third of the giant beast’s body into nothingness.
> It was an unprecedentedly mighty impact, but Caster laughed out loud with an even more piercing sound.
> "How can it be...?"
> Tokiomi was dumbfounded. Beneath him, the wriggling meat mountain swelled up like a balloon, and repaired the damaged parts as he watched.



Naruto tanking Excalibur is absolutely out of the question. Nothing he has shown indicates that he can tank an attack of this magnitude. It might change in the future, but not now, or I would certainly remember something like this.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

There is a lot of flowery description in there too.


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## Spirit King (Jul 17, 2012)

Nothingness most probably means vaporation, assuming the whole spiritual factors means he's in fact made of standard atoms and that excaliblast interacted with it in a physics based manner. Annihaltion means excaliblast is is basically antimatter and it doesn't seem like it no reallyr behave like it, and fission would leave nuclear material

So it's a good feat, but good luck calcing that in a standard manner, We don't know precisely what that thing is made of, which would make finding the enthalpy of atomization outright impossible, unless we assume it's made of something we do know about, e.g organic material etc.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

If we accept the 100 teratons which is a low-end and easily above everything Naruto has ever shown, and we put forth the fact that Ea easily dwarfs Excalibur in its lowest outputs, what do we do with the fact that Saber was able was able to withstand it for less than a second which is rather extraordinary in its own right?


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

Saber has 100 teratons durability.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

I know it sounds ridiculous but this thing did happen.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

Indeed.

That is why Saber has 100 teraton durability.


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## Saint Saga (Jul 17, 2012)

100 teraton durability as a low end grahf .

Don't start with your downplay now .


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

I apologize man.

Don't forget her luck too, now that would be downplaying.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

I can feel the sarcasm pouring through the words. So let’s just this canon feat that concludes the end of the first arc and continue where we left off. I heard the Flash could move faster than the speed of light. Who the hell are they trying to kid?


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## Saint Saga (Jul 17, 2012)

Can't forget her 100 teraton luck .


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

You don't see H4X like that everyday.


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## Saint Saga (Jul 17, 2012)

Naruto will trip and close his mouth , which will end in him swallowing the bijuu bomb .

Flawless victory .


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

country+ Saber easily

possibly continent

time to put her against that continent slashes Cloud

MvC here we come





> So it's a good feat, but good luck calcing that in a standard manner, We don't know precisely what that thing is made of, which would make finding the enthalpy of atomization outright impossible, unless we assume it's made of something we do know about, e.g organic material etc.


I figured ~human flesh, which is what willy used initially

and yes - enthalpy of atomization for meat/bones is a bit of a bitch  .. any thoughts ? :33


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

So it’s the general rule to ignore feats that are over the top even if they are backed up by clear black on white canon feats? Maybe she unconsciously used Avalon and it can be used while moving? Maybe she used Prana Burst? It’s better to find explanations than outright deny what clearly happened.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

Naruto will hyperventilate, trip, break his neck, close his mouth, which will end in him swallowing the bijuu bomb thus dying.

Why you are downplaying Saga?


----------



## Saint Saga (Jul 17, 2012)

I just didn't give the scenario the amount of thoughs it deserves .

I deeply apologize for that grahf , will you ever forgive me ?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Wasn't the Monster Caster feat the one that gave the 100 teraton figure?



Willy still hasn't provided the exert that supports this notion.

The first one posted was filled with flowery bullshit, I'm not expecting much better from the second.

But I can wait.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

You are forgiven, but don't try that shit again.


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## Saint Saga (Jul 17, 2012)

I will try my best , i never want to be a downplayer ever again .


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## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> So it?s the general rule to ignore feats that are over the top even if they are backed up by clear black on white canon feats? Maybe she unconsciously used Avalon and it can be used while moving? Maybe she used Prana Burst?



I can explain you why the thing you suggested is ridiculous, but is so clear that ima just keep doing what I am doing aka not downplaying Saber.


----------



## Toriko (Jul 17, 2012)

> I will try my best


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 17, 2012)

Saint Saga said:


> I will try my best , i never want to be a downplayer ever again .



This forum is lucky to have people like you Saga.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

any one of the 4 in my sig can solo BM Naruto no diff


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## Saint Saga (Jul 17, 2012)

Her luck allowed for sygurgh to argue for her , which will lead to her victory in this thread .

G-canon .


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

It’s ridiculous but it happened, and it’s a major plot point that concluded the end of the first route. She should have been disintegrated but survived less than a second a point blank Ea which allowed her the time to use Excalibur to open a path to Gilgamesh.


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## Ulti (Jul 17, 2012)

the guy in my sig could beat BM Naruto.


----------



## Saint Saga (Jul 17, 2012)

The guy in your set can solo both verses involved in this . 

Words of truth .


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## Ulti (Jul 17, 2012)

Saber is one of his freaks after all


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> It?s ridiculous but it happened, and it?s a major plot point that concluded the end of the first route. She should have been disintegrated but survived less than a second a point blank Ea which allowed her the time to use Excalibur to open a path to Gilgamesh.



So are you saying that she has country level durablity?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Saber is one of his freaks after all


seems he'll get at least 3 more by the time he's soloed the verse


----------



## Saint Saga (Jul 17, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Saber is one of his freaks after all



He'll make them all tap out .


----------



## Ulti (Jul 17, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> seems he'll get at least 3 more by the time he's soloed the verse



He has 20000 at least


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> It?s ridiculous but it happened, and it?s a major plot point that concluded the end of the first route. She should have been disintegrated but survived less than a second a point blank Ea which allowed her the time to use Excalibur to open a path to Gilgamesh.



There's also something called consistency and outliers dude.

Roshi clearly moon busted on panel in the 21st.

This isn't something anyone was capable of replicating until Piccolo did it after Raditz died.

Before that?  Ki blasts from characters not named Roshi, but were clearly superior, failed to breech past building level until Ki Ko Ho and Explosive Demon Wave.

Which still fell short of Moon busting by an incredibly large amount.


----------



## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> seems he'll get at least 3 more by the time he's soloed the verse



You're terrible at counting.


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## Ulti (Jul 17, 2012)

Saint Saga said:


> He'll make them all tap out .



It'll be like this

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1h7g3ckY5w[/YOUTUBE]


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> So are you saying that she has country level durablity?



I?m saying that Excalibur disintegrated a gigantic monster until not even its atoms remained. I?m saying that Ea easily beats Excalibur even in its lowest settings. I?m saying that Saber resisted Ea for less than a second. You can make your own conclusions.


----------



## Ulti (Jul 17, 2012)

After all Steiner has already killed Gilgamesh with words of truth.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> You're terrible at counting.


it's a low end mein square

from the sig


----------



## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> I?m saying that Excalibur disintegrated a gigantic monster until not even its atoms remained. I?m saying that Ea easily beats Excalibur even in its lowest settings. I?m saying that Saber resisted Ea for less than a second. You can make your own conclusions.





			
				ChaosTheory123 said:
			
		

> There's also something called consistency and outliers dude.
> 
> Roshi clearly moon busted on panel in the 21st.
> 
> ...



I think Chaos already answered it well enough.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

So basically, let’s just pretend it didn’t happen.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> So basically, let?s just pretend it didn?t happen.



You don't have very good reading comprehension do you?


----------



## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> it's a low end mein square
> 
> from the sig



It's to much of a low end.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> It's to much of a low end.


quality > quantity


----------



## Sieghart92 (Jul 17, 2012)

So the Saber feat of resisting Ea for less than a second is going to be ignored?


----------



## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> quality > quantity



Every girl in Fate is filled with quality.


----------



## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 17, 2012)

Sieghart92 said:


> So the Saber feat of resisting Ea for less than a second is going to be ignored?



Is that a bad feat or a good feat. I feel like I'm missing something.


----------



## Ulti (Jul 17, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v834N9aTkJs[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Saint Saga (Jul 17, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> After all Steiner has already killed Gilgamesh with words of truth.



Words of truth are just too hax .


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You don't have very good reading comprehension do you?



It’s not like the part where Saber and Lancer were trading blows at near light speed. It was the final confrontation between Saber and Gilgamesh that concluded the first route. It was explained that what she had done was a feat that shouldn’t have happened, that she should have died on the spot. If it makes you happy let’s make Avalon mobile to justify the feat and call it a day.

There is no lack of reading comprehension because the author clearly stated that she should have died and Oh My God! What The Hell Happened!


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Sieghart92 said:


> So the Saber feat of resisting Ea for less than a second is going to be ignored?



It depends on whether or not Exacalibur is truly country level.  Because if Exacalibur is country level that would also mean Ea is country level and that would mean that not only did Saber block a country level attack without Avalon, she also generated enough power to match up to it.

This is largely inconsistant with Saber's overall performance.  Even city level durability for Saber is pushing it.


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## Sieghart92 (Jul 17, 2012)

Huntring said:


> It depends on whether or not Exacalibur is truly country level.  Because if Exacalibur is country level that would also mean Ea is country level and that would mean that not only did Saber block a country level attack without Avalon, she also generated enough power to match up to it.
> 
> This is largely inconsistant with Saber's overall performance.  Even city level durability for Saber is pushing it.



In Fate/Zero the rotation of Ea's gears alone was compared to the movement of tectonic plates. All we know is nothing can fuck with Ea, so if you tanked it for even less than a second you can definitely tank Narutos move for less than a second.

BTW if Excalibur is country level that would mean Ea is far beyond that. Max output for Excalbur is 200, for Ea it's 4000. But yeah obviously the Ea she tanked wasn't more then a 1000 output one.


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 17, 2012)

Standard Ajimu solos post goes here.

She summons DBoy and fires a Voltekka.


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Sieghart92 said:


> In Fate/Zero the rotation of Ea's gears alone was compared to the movement of tectonic plates. All we know is nothing can fuck with Ea, so if you tanked it for even less then a second you can definitely tank Narutos move for less than a second.



Well that's true, the key thing here is that she can only use it for less than a second.  Naruto has mutiple attacks that can kill Saber that he can spam making tanking only one attack that can kill her pointless and a waste of mana.  She would have to use Avalon to avoid getting killed.

Of course we all agreed that due to Saber's luck Naruto would trip and die.  So argueing that is all moot.  



> BTW if Excalibur is country level that would mean Ea is far beyond
> That's the case and country level Exacalibur does add to her overallthat. Max output for Excalbur is 200, for Ea it's 4000.



Country level Exacalibur would add more creditablity to world busting Ea.  The problem here is that country level Exacalibur is based on dramatic narration more than anything so getting it accepted would be difficult.


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 17, 2012)

Nasu seems to like flowery langauge, that seems to be the main problem in alot of his threads it looks like.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

Gilgamesh used mountain busting swords to erase a third of the monster body. It specifically stated that only an attack that left nothing behind could kill Caster. Then it is specifically stated that Excalibur destroyed on an atomic level. Sounds like a logical reasoning.

There are possibilities to justify Saber tanking Ea for a second.

If she used Avalon, then it can be used while moving and the point is moot. If Saber used Prana Burst, then there is no doubt that she can do it for far more than a second. She was on her last leg and had Shirou, the shittiest master ever, to supply her with magical energy. Saber is basically a dragon in a human body. Dragons are the strongest magical creatures. She inherited their insane ability to negate magic and her dragon powered magical core.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

Some sort of zombie said:


> Nasu seems to like flowery langauge, that seems to be the main problem in alot of his threads it looks like.





Fluttershy said:


> Nasu threads all end up the same


.                           .


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## zenieth (Jul 17, 2012)

Nasu likes to bullshit is what he likes to do.


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 17, 2012)

Still not Ajimu level.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

country-durability Saber vs Ajimu


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## zenieth (Jul 17, 2012)

Ajimu is shoe level


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## Ulti (Jul 17, 2012)

Steiner puts Ajimu in the Steiner Recliner


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Gilgamesh used mountain busting swords to erase a third of the monster body.



Stating it's mountian busting is useless.  Considering that OBD's standards for mountian busting are strict (the mountian has to be >1000 meters in height or something like that) we generally assume that OBD and authors have different ideas for what busting a mountian is like.  

Hence why Ichigo from Bleach doesn't have mountian busting swings despite a character stating it.  




> It specifically stated that only an attack that left nothing behind could kill Caster. Then it is specifically stated that Excalibur destroyed on an atomic level. Sounds like a logical reasoning.



Sounds more like flowery language.

And I just realized that I'm the only one taking this seriously.


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 17, 2012)

Ajimu's leg lock puts the Steiner recliner to shame.


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## zenieth (Jul 17, 2012)

destroying at an atomic level also doesn't give those teraton calcs


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 17, 2012)

Medaka's shoe is also on even level with Sol Bad guy's belt.

And it failed to kill Ajimu.


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## zenieth (Jul 17, 2012)

Medaka's shoe isn't even worth one of dizzy's ribbons

beneath Ky belt level


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 17, 2012)

zenieth said:


> destroying at an atomic level also doesn't give those teraton calcs



I thought teraton was the minimum amount needed to atomize something.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

Gigantic monster.
Excalibur.
No more gigantic monster. Not even atoms left.
E=mc?


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 17, 2012)

zenieth said:


> Medaka's shoe isn't even worth one of dizzy's ribbons
> 
> beneath Ky belt level



Watch your mouth Zen.  Medaka's shoe stalemated Sol's belt. It's in the damn manga.


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## zenieth (Jul 17, 2012)

If by stalemate you mean gets the heel and that's all she wrote.


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> Gigantic monster.
> Excalibur.
> No more gigantic monster. Not even atoms left.
> E=mc?



You should realize by know that no one cares.

If you really want country level Saber so bad bring it over to the meta dome.


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 17, 2012)

I care about meaningless stuff. :c


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 17, 2012)

zenieth said:


> If by stalemate you mean gets the heel and that's all she wrote.



Negged x1000


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

It’s not about wanting. It’s about feats. Basic physics.


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 17, 2012)

Fiction and physics only have a loose relationship with each other.


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Sygurgh said:


> It?s not about wanting. It?s about feats. Basic physics.



->No one cares here.
->Your wasting your time
->Bring it over to the metadome
->Debate there.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 17, 2012)

I know, but this calculation is rather straightforward.
The only unknown is the mass of the monster.
It’s even on the database.


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## zenieth (Jul 17, 2012)

You do know, the text we're given only ever states that every atom was covered, not that every atom was destroyed. We still waiting on that excerpt for E=MC^2 to be applied


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 17, 2012)

Thread should have ended at Voltekka.


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 17, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> nope           .



I will make the thread buddy.


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## Huntring (Jul 17, 2012)

Black Sabbath II said:


> I will make the thread buddy.



Do it.  I dear you.


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## zenieth (Jul 17, 2012)

Steiner's words of truth'll make Ajimu feed herself to DEBIRU
but he will refuse


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 17, 2012)

Oh it's on.


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## Tir (Jul 17, 2012)

Speaking of NP, Naruto has one or two that rival Excalibur. Kusanagi and Totsuka.


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jul 17, 2012)

No they do not.


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## Tir (Jul 17, 2012)

Well, if England has Excalibur and Avalon, Japan has Kusanagi and Yata no Kagami. Based on myth anyway. The Mechanic of In Flight forum also commented about this.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 18, 2012)

How about no? Servants do not possess every weapons of their country. I don’t even know if equalization should work in this case, as it would be giving new attributes to a weapon that do not possess them originally.


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