# Captain America vs Toph Beifong



## Pocalypse (Jan 6, 2015)

Cap vs prime Toph from the Avatar series. 
Who wins?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 6, 2015)

I don't want to be the first one to post but ... If dem street levels from Marvel are getting MHS, Cap should also get it . Right ?

And with MHS speeds he just throws the shield and rips Toph's head off .

Oh god, I really didn't want to post here .


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## Tom Servo (Jan 6, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I don't want to be the first one to post but ... If dem street levels from Marvel are getting MHS, Cap should also get it . Right ?
> 
> And with MHS speeds he just throws the shield and rips Toph's head off .
> 
> Oh god, I really didn't want to post here .



What's Toph's durability at?

Cap does, even if we couldn't powerscale him to it he has a few MHS reaction feats.

As it stands, Cap has Superhuman running speed, supersonic+ combat speed and Massively Hypersonic reactions. Plus that and a shield that is unbreakable except against Skyfather level attacks (and even then it will only be damaged and cracked) his shield can also bust tanks, copters and planes. And Military hand to hand combat training (which I'm assuming he had an abundance of)

Kind of low for Cap to beat up a small blind girl


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 6, 2015)

He tosses his ridiculous shield at her gg


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## AgentAAA (Jan 6, 2015)

well, it isn't avatar vs. other avatar.
Cap does stomp pretty hard though.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 6, 2015)

Toph gets blitzed and has her head caved in

piandao vs hiko


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 6, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> piandao vs hiko



Still far better than Avatar vs Korra


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 6, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> *What's Toph's durability at?*
> 
> Cap does, even if we couldn't powerscale him to it he has a few MHS reaction feats.
> 
> ...



I don't know but I don't believe it's high . Avatar characters are essentially glass canons .

Cap can break steel walls with his bare hands, let alone what he can do wit that shield .

From top of my head he once threw the shield at a rocket that was already flying(Supersonic at least) and cut it in half and cut in half a tank .


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## AkumaTh (Jan 6, 2015)

I do wonder if Toph can Metalbend the shield. Would be an interesting thing to look up.

But I still say Capt wins. Toph maybe able to Earthbend, but I'm pretty sure Capt dealt with terraformers before. Not to mention I don't think Toph's reaction speed is close to the Captain's.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 6, 2015)

She can't bend platinum, let alone vibranium, that much purified cause you know, that thing will resist to ANYTHING in the Avatar verse .


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 6, 2015)

AkumaTh said:


> I do wonder if Toph can Metalbend the shield. Would be an interesting thing to look up.



she can't at all


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## trance (Jan 6, 2015)

AkumaTh said:


> I do wonder if Toph can Metalbend the shield. Would be an interesting thing to look up.



Cap's shield is made of vibranium, which, IIRC, is what the Celestials are made. Toph isn't metalbending something that multiversal beings are composed of. Even if it's just adamantium, that still puts its durability galaxies above what Toph can bend, since even the likes of Thor and Hulk can't destroy adamantium.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 6, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I don't want to be the first one to post but ... If dem street levels from Marvel are getting MHS, Cap should also get it . Right ?
> 
> And with MHS speeds he just throws the shield and rips Toph's head off .
> 
> Oh god, I really didn't want to post here .




decided already thread


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 6, 2015)

Cap can cut trucks in half with his shield throws, Toph gets slice and dice


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## Gibbs (Jan 6, 2015)

What if you remove Cap's shield?


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## Tom Servo (Jan 6, 2015)

The Phoenix King said:


> What if you remove Cap's shield?



Then he pummels her to death with his patriotic fists


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 6, 2015)

what if you remove Toph's eardrums?


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## Tom Servo (Jan 6, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> what if you remove Toph's eardrums?



What if you remove Toph's eyes


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 6, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> What if you remove Toph's eyes



Then she couldn't see, that wouldn't be fair.


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## Island (Jan 7, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Then he pummels her to death with his patriotic fists


 

Toph gets punched so hard that she'll be seeing stars (and stripes).


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 7, 2015)

Island said:


> Toph gets punched so hard that she'll be seeing stars (and stripes).



  

Didn't know that smiley existed, awesome.


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## willyvereb (Jan 7, 2015)

Well, both cap and Toph are MHS, actually.
Remember that Vaatu feat?
Korra fought him even prior to becoming that giant energy whatever.
Thus the feat practically scales to anyone and their grandmother (literally).

DC-wise toph has a town level feat for lifting up the library grounds.
But yeah, there are multiple reasons why Toph would be never able to metalbend the shield.

1.) Metal-bending works b manipulating the earth impurities within metals, Cap's shield
2.) Cap's shield has adamantium-like density which means it essentially has the "hidden mass" almost equal to that of a planet. Town-level TK won't be enough
3.) Cap's shield has high quantities of vibranium which absorbs and nullifies KE and momentum. It can essentially resist TK by it nature and would require beyond Herald level in that aspect.
4.) Of course Toph cannot damage or in any way "bend" Cap's shield as it has beyond star system level durability.


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## ShadowReaper (Jan 7, 2015)

Captain wins via BFR. Nothing more is needed to say.


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## Wan (Jan 7, 2015)

Trance said:


> Cap's shield is made of vibranium, which, IIRC, is what the Celestials are made. Toph isn't metalbending something that multiversal beings are composed of. Even if it's just adamantium, that still puts its durability galaxies above what Toph can bend, since even the likes of Thor and Hulk can't destroy adamantium.



Durability is unrelated to if Toph can move it through metalbending. A person can lift diamonds without having the ability to break them, after all.  Is there anything special about the shield's weight?  If not, then Toph could be able to move it through metalbending.  She wouldn't be able to warp and break it, sure, but Steve can't even do that himself, right?

I'd still be skeptical about Toph being able to influence it at all, depending on how pure vibranium is supposed to be.

And lol at willy still trying to trot out that Vaatu "feat".


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## willyvereb (Jan 7, 2015)

I'm sorry for actually bringing up actual points for your favorite fiction instead of what you're trying to push, Wan.


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## Wan (Jan 7, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> I'm sorry for actually bringing up actual points for your favorite fiction instead of what you're trying to push, Wan.



I don't support "points" when they involve more stretching than Mr. Fantastic.  No matter the fiction.  Heck I'd say I like Legend of Zelda more than ATLA/Korra, yet you hardly see me getting behind some of the claims made for LoZ around these parts.


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## Linkofone (Jan 7, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Then he pummels her to death with his patriotic fists





> Toph gets punched so hard that she'll be seeing stars (and stripes).



These are the best comments.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 7, 2015)

Wan said:


> I'd still be skeptical about Toph being able to influence it at all, depending on how pure vibranium is supposed to be..



its purity is irrelevant, even a fucking IG wielder needed to transmutate it into something else in order to break it.

Toph is bending jack and shit when it comes to his shield.


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## shade0180 (Jan 7, 2015)

> its purity is irrelevant, even a fucking IG wielder needed to transmutate it into something else in order to break it.
> 
> Toph is bending jack and shit when it comes to his shield.



I think what he meant is telekinetically moving it away from caps arm/reach.... or something like that.. Not breaking it in half or something..


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 7, 2015)

Wan said:


> I don't support "points" when they involve more stretching than Mr. Fantastic.



I don't think you actually know the full meaning to that statement unless you've been following mike.


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## Wan (Jan 7, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> its purity is irrelevant, even a fucking IG wielder needed to transmutate it into something else in order to break it.
> 
> Toph is bending jack and shit when it comes to his shield.



Its purity is relevant because in-universe, metalbenders cannot influence especially pure metals.  If not for that, there would be no reason for Toph to not be able to simply move around the shield, tear it from Cap's grip, etc.  She wouldn't have to all-out break it.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> I don't think you actually know the full meaning to that statement unless you've been following mike.



Probably not.


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## Fujita (Jan 7, 2015)

It's not a question of breaking it. Magic inertia is definitely a thing in fiction, and telekinesis isn't exempt from it... and in this case 



willyvereb said:


> Cap's shield has high quantities of vibranium which absorbs and nullifies KE and momentum. It can essentially resist TK by it nature and would require beyond Herald level in that aspect.


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## Wan (Jan 7, 2015)

Fujita said:


> It's not a question of breaking it. Magic inertia is definitely a thing in fiction, and telekinesis isn't exempt from it... and in this case



Then how can Cap move it to begin with?  It's not Mjolnir, where it's magically negating the strength of anyone that tries to move it except for specifically "worthy" people.


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## willyvereb (Jan 7, 2015)

The shield's properties are weird.
They only work when it's convenient for Cap.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 7, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> The shield's properties are weird.
> They only work when it's convenient for Cap.



American properties. AMERICA!


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## Wan (Jan 7, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> The shield's properties are weird.
> They only work when it's convenient for Cap.



So completely arbitrary.  That's stupid, but I guess there's little use arguing against it.


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## AgentAAA (Jan 7, 2015)

Wan said:


> So completely arbitrary.  That's stupid, but I guess there's little use arguing against it.



Wan, did it take you this long to realize that Captain America's shield is literally made up of arbitrary bullshit?
Vibranium tends to be pretty much made of silver age Superman in all it's appearances, but ESPECIALLY regarding cap's shield.
'course, given metal purity is an issue, I'll point out that cap's shield is probably as pure a metal as you'll ever see.


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## Island (Jan 7, 2015)

More importantly, Toph can't metalbend a lot of things. The whole thing with metalbending is that you're actually metalbending the nonmetal inside of the metal, e.g. alloys.

Considering that his shield is an adamantium and vibranium alloy, in other words, metal with more metal, she ain't bending shit.

It just so happens that the Avatarverse is so backwards that they don't really know how to purify metals to any meaningful degree. Any respectable science fiction verse is going to laugh at a metalbender's attempt to bend their stuff.


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## Banhammer (Jan 7, 2015)

captain wags his finger and toph and gives him a stern lecture about no matter how much value on your independence and hard work you should still find a way to cherish your parents the american way

Toph starts to cry like a baby, hugs cap and they become friends, reciting the pledge of allegiance together


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## AkumaTh (Jan 7, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> 1.) Metal-bending works b manipulating the earth impurities within metals, Cap's shield
> 2.) Cap's shield has adamantium-like density which means it essentially has the "hidden mass" almost equal to that of a planet. Town-level TK won't be enough
> 3.) Cap's shield has high quantities of vibranium which absorbs and nullifies KE and momentum. It can essentially resist TK by it nature and would require beyond Herald level in that aspect.
> 4.) Of course Toph cannot damage or in any way "bend" Cap's shield as it has beyond star system level durability.



Sounds about right, but I found a website that had a theory on it (). This part is the one to look at:



> Platinum, like gold, is a noble metal; it is highly unreactive and can be found in nature in it's native state. The base metals, like iron, copper, and tin, need to be smelted from ore, which reduces a mineral into a metal. So owing to its chemical nature, purifying platinum is far easier and the amount of "earth" left afterwards could be orders of magnitude lower than with steel.



And I'm betting Vibranium is a noble metal alongside Platinum and Gold (in the Marvel Universe). Though Adamantium is an Alloy and those seem to be bendable...



Island said:


> More importantly, Toph can't metalbend a lot of things. The whole thing with metalbending is that you're actually metalbending the nonmetal inside of the metal, e.g. alloys.
> 
> Considering that his shield is an adamantium and vibranium alloy, in other words, metal with more metal, she ain't bending shit.
> 
> It just so happens that the Avatarverse is so backwards that they don't really know how to purify metals to any meaningful degree. Any respectable science fiction verse is going to laugh at a metalbender's attempt to bend their stuff.



Nevermind.

So pretty much the fight would be like this..


Capt throws his mighty shield.
Toph block with Earth Wall.
Said shield cuts through said Wall.
Toph (be)headed to defeat.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 7, 2015)

You guys arguing technology or the fight ?

Also, lol at Toph moving the shield with metalbeding . The mechanics of the shield would make impossible for even Cap move it .


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## Banhammer (Jan 7, 2015)

Seeing how the shield absorbs mechanical input, it would be invisible to toph's senses. It might look like a black hole feels if it wasn't for the fact that everything looks black to her


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 7, 2015)

Wait a minute, cant toph sense where people are and what they are doing through the ground? If so wouldnt that mean that she could just rocks and stuff at the cap from where hes standing. If so then wouldnt she be able to keep him from throwing his shield properly by keeping him off balance. Or does Cap finish her before then?


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## AkumaTh (Jan 7, 2015)

Masterblack06 said:


> Wait a minute, cant toph sense where people are and what they are doing through the ground? If so wouldnt that mean that she could just rocks and stuff at the cap from where hes standing. If so then wouldnt she be able to keep him from throwing his shield properly by keeping him off balance. Or does Cap finish her before then?



Capt can throw his shield very well. And with his aerobics he could throw it while flipping. Also Toph wouldn't really know that throwing a defensive weapon would be his offense.


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 7, 2015)

Thats still a legitimate strategy for her to use right? I mean yeah she probably wouldnt expect him to throw it but maybe her being a little girl and all would give cap pause on the whole throwing his shield at her, but then again hes done it on regular people so idk


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## AkumaTh (Jan 7, 2015)

Masterblack06 said:


> Thats still a legitimate strategy for her to use right? I mean yeah she probably wouldnt expect him to throw it but maybe her being a little girl and all would give cap pause on the whole throwing his shield at her, but then again hes done it on regular people so idk



There's no Blood Lust, so that is the possibility. Though once he sees her attacking he will fight.


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 7, 2015)

Okay so toph has a way to win this fight then. If she can keep cap off guard long enough to either pierce him with rock pillar, or maybe even knock his shield out of his hand. Then she has a very a very small chance to win


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## shade0180 (Jan 7, 2015)

> her being a little girl and all would give cap pause on the whole throwing his shield at her,





> There's no Blood Lust, so that is the possibility. Though once he sees her attacking he will fight.


General assumption on OBD matches are both fighters are automatically blood lusted unless the OP stated otherwise, So even if cap is fighting his own son/mother/brother/father/sister/a baby/an old man or whatever he'd throw his shield at them without caring..

We aren't making matches so we can talk about shit like PIS or CIS if you want to see those open a comic book or a fanfiction story


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 7, 2015)

So if thats the case, I could then say that toph senses cap preparing to throw his shield  immediately puts a rock through his chest. Toph can sense a persons entire body as shown when she was first introduced as the blind bandit. If  blood lusted cap would throw his shield then  bloodlusted toph would start the rock works immediately


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## shade0180 (Jan 7, 2015)

Sure, if the rock is moving multiple times faster than Capt that he wouldn't notice it. Yea, that would work. Capt throwing his shield doesn't mean he will forget how to dodge....

Also Toph has a glaring weakness in this match.... which is.she can't detect flying objects.. Which basically mean she has more chances of getting hit by the shield than Capt not noticing a moving rock/rock formation.


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 7, 2015)

I aint saying she wins 100% now, im saying  she does have somewhat of a chance to beat cap like maybe 1 out of every idk 20. Besides it is something, that not even the op has brought up yet


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## shade0180 (Jan 7, 2015)

MasterBlack for the general assumption on OBD thread read this...


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 7, 2015)

Well...crap, is the room of spirit and time the manga name for the hyperbolic time chamber? If so does toph even have anything to bend in there. If not then she loses, if so then she most likely still loses.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 7, 2015)

Yeah that's the manga name and iirc also the Japanese anime name. I'm pretty sure that's just the Funi name


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## Adamant soul (Jan 7, 2015)

Masterblack06 said:


> Well...crap, is the room of spirit and time the manga name for the hyperbolic time chamber? If so does toph even have anything to bend in there. If not then she loses, if so then she most likely still loses.



Yes it is, even with earth to bend, I don't see how she's beating Steve at all. He's easily fast enough to dodge whatever she throws at him and all he needs is one good hit to end this.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jan 7, 2015)

Well it seems a consensus has been reached. 

What if whatever feat iwandesu was talking about was right (I'm not implying it isn't because idk what it is) how would the now faster toph fare?


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## shade0180 (Jan 7, 2015)

Masterblack06 said:


> Well...crap, is the room of spirit and time the manga name for the hyperbolic time chamber? If so does toph even have anything to bend in there. If not then she loses, if so then she most likely still loses.





> Unless otherwise stated, the battle should take place in an *unobstructed dome similar *to the Room of Spirit and Time, thus allowing for large-scale fighters, like Dark Schneider and Vegitto, to still have space move around



I'm pretty sure the bolded is what we follow. So yes, Toph has rocks she could use in the matches which she can collect from the ground..

There's no point in this matches if one combatant can't fight effectively...


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 7, 2015)

Alright then, I guess its unanimous that toph loses this one. Maybe pit her against someone who doesn't have a almost unbreakable shield and is superhumanish.


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## Banhammer (Jan 7, 2015)

I think it's fair to say toph's got ground to play with. Else what's the point?



Masterblack06 said:


> Wait a minute, cant toph sense where people are and what they are doing through the ground? If so wouldnt that mean that she could just rocks and stuff at the cap from where hes standing. If so then wouldnt she be able to keep him from throwing his shield properly by keeping him off balance. Or does Cap finish her before then?



Toph can't see captain america's shield specifically, but she can sense airborn projectiles generically. Either they have earth in them, or pre-cog allows to gauge speed and direction, or both

Now, the thing is, Cap knows how to firsbee that shield.

Say she dodges. "Haha, missed!" hits her in the back of the head

there's no way however, that steve can land a single punch on her hand to hand. Not only he couldn't hit her to save his life, there's all these pesky telekinetic powers that would make it a silly stompage

Pre-Cog alone couldn't save her, not in the long term, but he gets buried a mile beneath the earth long before that


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Well, both cap and Toph are MHS, actually.
> Remember that Vaatu feat?
> Korra fought him even prior to becoming that giant energy whatever.
> Thus the feat practically scales to anyone and their grandmother (literally).
> ...



Where is the calc for MHS Avatar, I have never seen one, except for ones like Wan assuming lightningbending is real lightning ?


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

2:37 and 7:20+


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

So ... Calcs ?


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

why do you need a calc when the feat is practically slapped on your face...

If you want a  number you can calc it yourself, 

Get an avatar map the old anime(AtLA) has that get the shortest distance between korra's location and where the city is, get the timeframe for the video convert it to mach number and you have your calc.....

But seriously a map of the lore should be enough for that.. since she traveled from 1 point to another in a few seconds tops..



			
				Mr.Black Leg said:
			
		

> So ... Calcs ?



You need around 34.02 km/s to get mach 100. You know how short that is....


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

Just to remind you that burden of proof isn't on me to prove that Korra is MHS . 

Certainly looks like so, but we need a calc, it could be anywhere from mach 100 to thousands of mach .


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

There is no time frame from that scene.  We don't know how long it actually takes for Vaatu and Korra to get between Republic City and the Southern Water Tribe.  There are scene cuts in each example.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

Do it high end 1 minute .

Mid end 5 .

Low end 10 .

I'm sure at least the low end would be accepted .

Or use the cut scene time frame itself .


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

Seems like a shaky assumption to me.  And it's not like that's even Vaatu and Korra's own speed to begin with.  They use the spirit energy lines in the sky made by Harmonic Convergence to travel that fast; there's a clear difference between their speed when using that and their speed when actually fighting.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

Wan said:


> Seems like a shaky assumption to me.  And it's not like that's even Vaatu and Korra's own speed to begin with.  They use the spirit energy lines in the sky made by Harmonic Convergence to travel that fast; there's a clear difference between their speed when using that and their speed when actually fighting.



So why would Toph get the scaling if not even them, who performed the feat, would ?


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> So why would Toph get the scaling if not even them, who performed the feat, would ?



No one gets scaling from it.  There's no reason to scale, well, _anyone_ in the Avatarverse to Giant Spirit Korra and Unavaatu, and it's not a legitimate feat for what's being claimed anyways.


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

> There is no time frame from that scene. We don't know how long it actually takes for Vaatu and Korra to get between Republic City and the Southern Water Tribe. There are scene cuts in each example.



Er there is a timeframe though.... also the zero change in the sky gives a pretty definite time frame or are you saying Vaatu and every people in the city we saw was standing still for the whole time that Korra was traveling from where she is to where Vaatu was?

So how much time would they be standing still

1 min
10 mins
30 mins
1 hr
5 hrs


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

Wan said:


> No one gets scaling from it.  There's no reason to scale, well, _anyone_ in the Avatarverse to Giant Spirit Korra and Unavaatu, and it's not a legitimate feat for what's being claimed anyways.



So, why did willy say that Toph is also MHS ? Where does his statement comes from ?


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> So, why did willy say that Toph is also MHS ? Where does his statement comes from ?



It was from the same "feat".  willy's logic, as far as I can tell, goes like this:

--Giant Spirit Korra and Unavaatu had to travel at MHS speeds to get between Republic City and the South Pole (never mind that we don't have an actual time frame for how long this took)
--This MHS speed applies to Giant Spirit Korra and Unavaatu's fighting speed (never mind that they both specifically flew through the spirit energy network in the sky to travel like that and it didn't involve any reacting)
--The speed also applies to Dark Avatar Unalaq before transforming into giant spirit Unavaatu because...some reason I guess.
--Thus it applies to normal Korra because Korra was able to fight Dark Avatar Unalaq.
--Because it applies to Korra, it applies to everyone in the Avatarverse, because everyone in the Avatarverse can scale to a fully healthy Korra now apparently.


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## Dudebro (Jan 8, 2015)

The timeframe couldn't have been an hour or even past five or ten minutes. If it was the former than Republic city would have been destroyed and reduced to a flaming wreck. If it was the latter the damage done would still have been far greater.

On top of that didn't Jenora travel the same distance in spirit form?...And continue to travel insane distances for the rest of the series?...Her reactions should scale if so since last I checked no one specified that being in spirit form increases your reactions.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

The spirit thing is basically spirits can turn any place . They don't need to physically travel from A to B .


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

Dudebro said:


> The timeframe couldn't have been an hour or even past five or ten minutes. If it was the former than Republic city would have been destroyed and reduced to a flaming wreck. If it was the latter the damage done would still have been far greater.
> 
> On top of that didn't Jenora travel the same distance in spirit form?...And continue to travel insane distances for the rest of the series?...Her reactions should scale if so since last I checked no one specified that being in spirit form increases your reactions.



Jinora emerged directly from the spirit world.  As the Aye Aye spirit from Wan's time showed, teleportation is possible when you're a spirit.  Zaheer also demonstrated this when in the Spirit World.  I wouldn't ascribe any speed or reaction time to Jinora's spirit form, she's simply able to teleport her spirit form.


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## Dudebro (Jan 8, 2015)

Oh okay. My bad. Misunderstanding on how that works.


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## willyvereb (Jan 8, 2015)

We pretty much had a time frame and it was 5-10 seconds.
It's rather ironic that Wan of all people is stubborn against this.
As for distance it's roughly the Sydney-South Pole distance which is roughly 6000 kilometers.
600km/s equals Mach 1764.

Except we saw both Korra and vaatu traveling there, the only "teleportation" occoured when the giant bodies of both tried to get through the Spirit Portal.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> We pretty much had a time frame and it was 5-10 seconds.



Prove it. .  And while you're at it, explain why the speed applies to pre-transformation Dark Avatar Unalaq, I'm a little foggy on how you got to that one.


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## willyvereb (Jan 8, 2015)

Prove what?
Wan, you're shifting the burden of proof here.
It's shown straight in the scene, you're just in constant denial.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Prove what?
> Wan, you're shifting the burden of proof here.
> It's shown straight in the scene, you're just in constant denial.



What's shown is Vaatu or Korra getting sucked into the spirit energy network, a cut to commercial or another scene, then they are shown arriving.  How do you get a time frame from something that's not one continuous scene?


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

> Prove it. .


Wan are you blind.... It is shown in the show which I linked btw....



> a cut to commercial



WTF your excuse is they inputted a commercial on the show that's why it isn't valid...





> then they are shown arriving. How do you get a time frame from something that's not one continuous scene?



Are you saying that everyone was standing still for however long that commercial is shown. which is more than 5 mins... can you prove that?


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Are you saying that everyone was standing still for however long that commercial is shown. which is more than 5 mins... can you prove that?



No, I'm not saying that.


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

You are implying it though.  So why is the cut that important when the scene when it left and when the scene reappeared has no visible difference in time frame?..


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> You are implying it though.  So why is the cut that important when the scene when it left and when the scene reappeared has no visible difference in time frame?..



The cut makes it impossible to get a time frame from the scenes in the first place.  We don't know how much time could have transpired during the cut.  Plus, the camera isn't on Korra and Vaatu the whole time.  Jump cuts to skip lengths of time where nothing happens are a thing.


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

> place. We don't know how much time could have transpired during the cut.



So basically this..



> Are you saying that everyone was standing still for however long that cut is.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> So basically this..



Well in the context of those scenes:

The United Republic forces are sort of just standing around waiting for an attack when Unavaatu first heads to Republic City.

Unavaatu is standing still as his vines overrun the city when Korra travels to Republic City.

Tenzin & co are holding their ground against spirits when Korra heads back to the South Pole.

Nothing about what's happening during the cuts necessitates that they only be a few seconds long.


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

So you're saying that they are standing still for 30 mins or even a few hour to wait for Korra to appear.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

willy - I don't have a problem with the number what so ever, and won't try to discuss if it's legit feat or not but I would like to know how would the supreme state of two Avatar-state level of characters are going to be scaled to Toph ?

I mean Toph is Top Tier bender and certainly the best earthbender of all time but would it make her be scaled to something in the avatar state, because it's literally a state where the avatar does fuckery that is beyond anyone else, so why would it be scaled to Toph ? Or pretty much anyone else except for other avatars ?


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

To clarify my position on the feat -- it's clear that Korra and Vaatu had to travel at hypersonic velocities to some degree.  We aren't shown enough about the scene to get the time frame down to just a few seconds and calc based on that, though.  But the bigger sticking point for me is there's no reason for that speed to apply to Giant Spirit Korra and Unavaatu's fighting and reaction speeds.  They get sucked into the spirit energy network in the sky and travel along that.  There's no indication they could achieve that speed without the spirit energy network, or that the way they traveled required any extraordinary reaction times.


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

> no reason for that speed to apply to Giant Spirit Korra and Unavaatu's fighting and reaction speeds.



They have enough of a reaction speed from that... since they had enough presence of mind on where and when to stop or who to hit even if they are riding said network..

As for long distance and short distance movement without the network. I agree that one could be debatable...


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> They have enough of a reaction speed from that... since they had enough presence of mind on where and when to stop or who to hit even if they are riding said network..
> 
> As for long distance and short distance movement without the network. I agree that one could be debatable...



Or they could have decelerated when approaching their destinations, rather than stopping all at once.  The fact that they don't leave huge craters on impact would indicate that they're not traveling at hypersonic+ speeds when landing.


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

Prove that claim then. because the visual didn't show it,


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## AgentAAA (Jan 8, 2015)

Wan said:


> Or they could have decelerated when approaching their destinations, rather than stopping all at once.  The fact that they don't leave huge craters on impact would indicate that they're not traveling at hypersonic+ speeds when landing.



O... Oh wow.
Ohhhhhh wow.
I thought you were done your subsonic fiction crusade.
Wan I'm going to point it if they decelerated when approaching that means they had to be moving faster for the other portion of their flight, due to having to make up the lost time.
I'm ALSO going to point out that arguing from secondary effects seriously like this is the stupidest thing you've done since asking for proof hydrogen and oxygen exist.
Or implying that nardo trees>>> Orochimaru's snake.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Prove that claim then. because the visual didn't show it,



I just noted how they didn't leave huge craters on impact like one would expect them to if they were traveling at hypersonic+ velocities.  Beyond that, I don't have to prove it.  What needs to be proven is that Giant Spirit Korra and Unavaatu have hypersonic+ reactions.  You prove something by eliminating alternative explanations.  If there's a plausible alternative that doesn't result in concluding that Korra and Unavaatu are hypersonic+, then them being hypersonic+ is unproven.


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

Crater doesn't mean shit on a traveling feat or speed feat.. superman can fly at FTL speed and he doesn't leave a crater every time he lands at that speed. does that mean he is not flying at that speed. 

Marvel comic does that too.

Ultraman does that to and they don't leave any crater

Dragon ball had a lot of this on part two and they also don't leave crater... and a lot more series..

Craters are only done most of the time if plot needed them to exist. or to show a destruction feat on a huge scale.



> Or they could have decelerated when approaching their destinations, rather than stopping all at once.



also this does prove that they can react at those speed since they know the right time to decelerate...  which means they already reacted.. which is basically a reaction feat...


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Crater doesn't mean shit. superman is flying at FTL speed and he doesn't leave a crater every time he lands at that speed
> 
> Ultraman does that to and they don't leave any crater
> 
> Dragon ball had a lot of this on part two and they also don't leave crater... and a lot more series..



There are other details that prove those characters travel and react at those speeds outside of the examples of them landing.  We're discussing whether or not this feat shows them to be reacting at hypersonic speeds in the first place.


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## Banhammer (Jan 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> 2:37 and 7:20+



So she goes from the spirit realm to the earthly realm... It's kind of a stretch to say there's a conventional speed of transubstantiation.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

Banhammer said:


> So she goes from the spirit realm to the earthly realm... It's kind of a stretch to say there's a conventional speed of transubstantiation.



That's a fair point.  Considering that Jinora emerged directly from the spirit energy in the sky and was never shown going through the portals, it's possible that by being absorbed into that energy network, they were more or less traveling through the spirit world rather than the physical world.


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

> , it's possible that by being absorbed into that energy network, they were more or less traveling through the spirit world rather than the physical world.



That still shouldn't change their reaction speed though...


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> That still shouldn't change their reaction speed though...



It would mean they're not necessarily moving at a hypersonic speed in the first place.  They'd be traveling some undefined distance in the Spirit World and then emerging in the physical world.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 8, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __


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## LazyWaka (Jan 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> They have enough of a reaction speed from that... since they had enough presence of mind on where and when to stop or who to hit even if they are riding said network.



That's not really all that impressive when they can see their stopping point coming for miles. If they were traveling along the ground where they had to regularly avoid shit then it would be different. It would still require incredibly fast reactions if that mach 1700 calc is legit, but because of the distance it doesn't require mach 1700 reactions to accomplish.

I'm usually not one to disassociate travel speed from combat speed. But when they use a unique method of travel then it's going to raise some eyebrows.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> That's not really all that impressive when they can see their stopping point coming for miles. If they were traveling along the ground where they had to regularly avoid shit then it would be different.
> 
> I'm usually not one to disassociate travel speed from combat speed. But when they use a unique method of travel then it's going to raise some eyebrows.



It's pretty much like Whis' staff, isn't it ?


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## Iwandesu (Jan 8, 2015)

this seems travel speed to me. 
also, i don't get it willy
wasn't you the one who found out that method to derivate reactions from travel speed ?
by that thing korra would only need subsonic reactions to perform this feat unless i'm missing something.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 8, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> this seems travel speed to me.
> also, i don't get it willy
> wasn't you the one who found out that method to derivate reactions from travel speed ?
> by that thing korra would only need subsonic reactions to perform this feat unless i'm missing something.



more importantly: Special one off power up for two characters is not something you can scale to other people at all..or even those characters post power up.


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## willyvereb (Jan 8, 2015)

Seriously, this debate got derailed so much people don't even know what the real topic was anymore.
Reminder, it's *Captain America vs Toph Beifong*

As for the MHS feat, like I said we had timeframe.
Like I said it was not a teleportation
And if you just paid a bit of attention you'd have seen it wasn't some sort of technique.
they just flew there.
As for travel speed versus reactions they do make a sharp drop downwards to the city so even if it were not exactly at the same level as their travel speed, it's close.
Besides, you can pretty much bring this up for tons of other feats in fiction and we don't because it's pointless for a multitude of complex reasons. Streamlining, in short.
Lastly, why is it even relevant?
Because Korra did react against Vaatu or something similar happened.
Been a while but the point is that somebody did react against these "powered up" versions in combat.
The feat does not count to their travel or long range movement speed, but it counts for their reactions and other immediate combat range feats.
And if you ask why would an LoK feat would scale for ATLA characters, there are multiple ways to make that connection.
Most obviously the fact grandma Toph was superior to both base Korra and Kuvira.
So yeah.
Stop this bullshit and let's get back to the topic at hand.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> As for the MHS feat, like I said we had timeframe.



We have a very rough time frame, at best.  Not enough to bring it down to a matter of seconds.



> Like I said it was not a teleportation



Agreed.


> And if you just paid a bit of attention you'd have seen it wasn't some sort of technique.
> they just flew there.



Vaatu touched the energy in the sky, Korra touched the energy connecting the spirit portals and they were both sucked in.


> As for travel speed versus reactions they do make a sharp drop downwards to the city so even if it were not exactly at the same level as their travel speed, it's close.



This doesn't eliminate the possibility that they decelerated before landing.



> Lastly, why is it even relevant?
> Because Korra did react against Vaatu or something similar happened.
> Been a while but the point is that somebody did react against these "powered up" versions in combat.



The only two character forms with the feat, Giant Spirit Korra and Unavaatu (the massive, transformed version of Dark Avatar Unalaq), only ever fought each other.  The feat does not apply to Vaatu alone, or base or Avatar State Korra.



> nd if you ask why would an LoK feat would scale for ATLA characters, there are multiple ways to make that connection.
> Most obviously the fact grandma Toph was superior to both base Korra and Kuvira.
> So yeah.
> Stop this bullshit and let's get back to the topic at hand.



Toph was superior to a weakened Korra, not fully healthy Korra.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

Wan said:


> We have a very rough time frame, at best.  Not enough to bring it down to a matter of seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes she is . Remember what old Toph did in one movement ?


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yes she is . Remember what old Toph did in one movement ?



Are we talking about speed or power, here?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

Wan said:


> Are we talking about speed or power, here?



(Row row fight the) Powah .


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> (Row row fight the) Powah .



Then that's not a reason to scale a speed feat from base Korra to Toph, never mind that the speed feat doesn't apply to base Korra anyways.


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## Island (Jan 8, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Seriously, this debate got *derailed* so much people don't even know what the real topic was anymore.


Is this a pun?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

I wasn't talking about the speed feat, I was only pointing out that base old Toph > base Korra .


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I wasn't talking about the speed feat, I was only pointing out that base old Toph > base Korra .



Ok, possibly in power, but that's not relevant.  Toph would need to be better than Korra in speed in order for the feat to scale to her.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 8, 2015)

As I said: I was not referring to the feat . At this point I give up arguing avatar . 

No one ever makes avatar cacls, so it's hard to argue basing your arguments in eyeballing and guesses .


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2015)

> Ok, possibly in power, but that's not relevant. Toph would need to be better than Korra in speed in order for the feat to scale to her.



Er what?

> Did Korra Blitz Toph to the point that Toph can't even react to her?
> Is Toph so slow that she couldn't even touch Korra?
> Did Korra move so fast that she suddenly disappeared from Toph's radar ability?


If the answer for all those is no.
Why isn't she getting scaled to Korra?


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Er what?
> 
> > Is Korra blitzing Toph?
> > Is Toph not reacting to Korra?
> ...



Toph has never had a chance for a healthy Korra to fight her to see if any of that would happen.


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## willyvereb (Jan 8, 2015)

Like it really matters given indirect showings in general and the fact Toph is considerably bettere than Kuvira.
Or the fact Korra is a fuckin' jobber who can struggle against even mooks.
Wan, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, not realizing what are you even talking about.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Like it really matters given indirect showings in general and the fact Toph is considerably bettere than Kuvira.
> Or the fact Korra is a fuckin' jobber who can struggle against even mooks.
> Wan, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, not realizing what are you even talking about.



Right, base Korra is a "jobber" who struggles against mooks, and Toph is considerably better than Kuvira...even if you accept that (which I don't), how do you go from there to scaling Toph to flipping _Giant spirit Korra and Unavaatu?_


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 8, 2015)

Wan said:


> continuing to not know what the fuck I'm talking about



Love the last bit there, consider that even the two nuclear powers of the cold war struggled to go from weapon stage to power source stage and suffered years of set backs and deaths. Varrick discovered, tapped and figured out how to unleash the equivalent of soul based nuclear power...what lover boy did by comparison was nothing at all special- all he did was devise a rather poor copy of the guys "detonation" method..that didn't even produce the same amount of energy and a method to focus it.

That's not really that complex or impressive by comparison 



Nice Dynamite said:


> From an engineering perspective
> 
> It's literally idiotic to try retrofit a shipyard to build zeppelins.
> 
> You need Hangars for that!



And gas mines, refining centers, ,roads for transportation, a safe method of transporting said gas and storage facilities for gas, since y'know zeppelins don't on run on hot air or agnst, otherwise Azula and her father could just trash talk into a hose, or Zuko could baww a bit near one

not to mention the factories, air strips, landing facilities and the like



Island said:


> Is this a pun?





shade0180 said:


> Er what?
> 
> > Did Korra Blitz Toph to the point that Toph can't even react to her?
> > Is Toph so slow that she couldn't even touch Korra?
> ...



Korra had a special power up for that cosmic feat though...that wasn't a standard ability.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Love the last bit there, consider that even the two nuclear powers of the cold war struggled to go from weapon stage to power source stage and suffered years of set backs and deaths. Varrick discovered, tapped and figured out how to unleash the equivalent of soul based nuclear power...what lover boy did by comparison was nothing at all special- all he did was devise a rather poor copy of the guys "detonation" method..that didn't even produce the same amount of energy and a method to focus it.
> 
> That's not really that complex or impressive by comparison



Right.  So I take it you have no argument against the rest of my points, then?



> And gas mines, refining centers, ,roads for transportation, a safe method of transporting said gas and storage facilities for gas, since y'know zeppelins don't on run on hot air or agnst,



Yep, so the Fire Nation must have had all that.  Plus, if the airships are indeed elevated by hydrogen/helium instead of hot air, that's another thing the Fire Nation came up with by themselves, independent of the Mechanist.


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## willyvereb (Jan 8, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Korra had a special power up for that cosmic feat though...that wasn't a standard ability.


Point is that Korra did fight Vaatu before getting her powerup thus the speed feat still applies to LoK characters in terms of reactions and such.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Point is that Korra did fight Vaatu before getting her powerup thus the speed feat still applies to LoK characters in terms of reactions and such.



She fought Vaatu, which is different than Unavaatu, the transformed form of Dark Avatar Unalaq, who was already supposed to be stronger than Vaatu alone.  And she had to use the Avatar State to do it.


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## willyvereb (Jan 8, 2015)

So being 2-3 times stronger means they're so fast you can no longer compare them in speed?
And I remember something more direct correlation, though it's been years since I watched LoK book 2.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 8, 2015)

Wan said:


> Right.  So I take it you have no argument against the rest of my points, then?[



I just spent two pages destroying your points, mocking the fuck out of you and laughing at your pathetic attempts to defend yourself.

That you continue to spew bullshit to the point where I'm pretty sure most of that post was just nonsense or goal post shifting is irrelevant to reality.

And reality is, you have, as usual biased and wishful thinking and nothing else. 


Wan said:


> Yep, so the Fire Nation must have had all that.  Plus, if the airships are indeed elevated by hydrogen/helium instead of hot air, that's another thing the Fire Nation came up with by themselves, independent of the Mechanist.



Or you know, being their one man think tank he came up with all that before he bailed 

look, you've got a point you might actually be right about, for the wrong reasons..against Willy, stick to that one and don't argue the ones you are coming off as comically stupid over.


willyvereb said:


> Point is that Korra did fight Vaatu before getting her powerup thus the speed feat still applies to LoK characters in terms of reactions and such.



Was Vatuu powered up by that point?

Did he have said hypersonic feats, when he was fighting her? Was she doing something other than getting rag dolled?

It would also only apply to characters on Korra's level and beyond..granted, she's such a horrible bender and avatar that, that means most of the top tiers.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> So being 2-3 times stronger means they're so fast you can no longer compare them in speed?
> And I remember something more direct correlation, though it's been years since I watched LoK book 2.



Being stronger by an undefined amount means you can't scale them in speed, yes.

Basically, you're trying to scale Toph to Avatar State Korra for no good reason, then scale AS Korra to Vaatu because she fought him, then scale Vaatu to Unavaatu for no good reason.  That's a lot of shaky scaling.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> And reality is, you have, as usual biased and wishful thinking and nothing else.



So I take that as a no.  Ok then.



> Or you know, being their one man think tank he came up with all that before he bailed



There's little reason to think the Mechanist would be involved with any of that, but even if he was..._the Fire Nation still had it._



> look, you've got a point you might actually be right about, for the wrong reasons..against Willy, stick to that one and don't argue the ones you are coming off as comically stupid over.



Well thanks, I guess...


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## Pocalypse (Jan 8, 2015)

...How did you lot go from Cap vs Toph to talking about the Fire Nation and its weaponry


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> ...How did you lot go from Cap vs Toph to talking about the Fire Nation and its weaponry



I think it started when Island started talking down the metallurgy abilities of the Avatarverse and I took issue with it.

Are you pleased with were your thread has gone?


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## Punchsplosion (Jan 8, 2015)

Wan said:


> I think it started when Island started talking down the metallurgy abilities of the Avatarverse and I took issue with it.
> 
> Are you pleased with were your thread has gone?



In summation, Toph can't bend the shield (whether it be breaking, warping, or moving it) due to it being proto adamantium (I.E. Impurities burnt out, blended with vibranium, and solidified into its indestructible form) which means it has no earth to bend AND its properties of KE absorption completely nullify attempt to telekinetically move/manipulate it.

Additionally, Toph wouldn't be able to sense the shield as it produces no vibrations.  It would appear as a disc of darkness (although she would probably notice the shield-shaped void in front of his body).  When Cap threw it, Toph has a very slim chance at dodging something that she can't perceive.  Her typical reaction would be to conjure up a stone wall against other benders to protect herself or base her dodging on the movements of the bender she is fighting.  

If she's lucky, she is moving by the time the shield blasts through the stone wall and survives long enough for the ricochet or for Cap to retrieve his shield and set up a better throw.  If she's unlucky, she isn't fast enough in her movement and Cap's shield completely cuts through the stone and kills her.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

Punchsplosion said:


> In summation, Toph can't bend the shield (whether it be breaking, warping, or moving it) due to it being proto adamantium (I.E. Impurities burnt out, blended with vibranium, and solidified into its indestructible form) which means it has no earth to bend AND its properties of KE absorption completely nullify attempt to telekinetically move/manipulate it.
> 
> Additionally, Toph wouldn't be able to sense the shield as it produces no vibrations.  It would appear as a disc of darkness (although she would probably notice the shield-shaped void in front of his body).  When Cap threw it, Toph has a very slim chance at dodging something that she can't perceive.  Her typical reaction would be to conjure up a stone wall against other benders to protect herself or base her dodging on the movements of the bender she is fighting.
> 
> If she's lucky, she is moving by the time the shield blasts through the stone wall and survives long enough for the ricochet or for Cap to retrieve his shield and set up a better throw.  If she's unlucky, she isn't fast enough in her movement and Cap's shield completely cuts through the stone and kills her.



Hmm, I'm not so sure the shield would not _produce_ vibrations.  Vibrations would not travel through it, but that doesn't mean vibrations would not travel through the ground from the point where the shield would hit the ground.  So she would sense where the shield touches the ground, but she wouldn't actually "see" the shield, as vibrations do not travel _through_ it.  It would be hella confusing to her, for sure.


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## AkumaTh (Jan 8, 2015)

And now that I realize Blood Lust is the normal standard, there will be no question that he will go for the kill in this fight. Unless Toph has the mountain range making feat she did in the Chibi-Episode, safe bet is Capt winning this fight.


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## Punchsplosion (Jan 8, 2015)

Wan said:


> Hmm, I'm not so sure the shield would not _produce_ vibrations.  Vibrations would not travel through it, but that doesn't mean vibrations would not travel through the ground from the point where the shield would hit the ground.  So she would sense where the shield touches the ground, but she wouldn't actually "see" the shield, as vibrations do not travel _through_ it.  It would be hella confusing to her, for sure.



Wan why are you attempting to nitpick every little thing.  Obviously, I meant it wouldn't produce vibrations while Cap was holding it.  Not when it hit the ground.  All Toph would know when the shield hit something though would be that something produced vibrations from what was struck.  She would ONLY be able to see the vibrations from where the shield made contact with whatever it was hitting.  I.E. a very small area of the shield.  At most, it would look like to her that the stone was being sliced through by a very small, very curved sliver of darkness.  Unless of course Cap was charging forward and smashed though with the front of the shield.  Then, it would look like a disc of darkness.

Anyways, nitpicking aside.  Toph loses this fight.

EDIT:  And yes it would confuse the shit out of her, if she had time to process that thought before her head is separated from her body.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 8, 2015)

How the fuck did this get so off topic? Jesus fucking christ people...


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## Big Bοss (Jan 8, 2015)

My post was about evidence supporting the MHS claim UD, why you gotta be like this?


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## Sablés (Jan 8, 2015)

Because UD is rassist.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 8, 2015)

Suuuure it was Grahf


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 8, 2015)

Wan said:


> So I take that as a no.  Ok then.
> 
> 
> ...



Only in your deluded mind. 



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> How the fuck did this get so off topic? Jesus fucking christ people...



Because Wan is a lying, troll who's long worn out his welcome?


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## Island (Jan 8, 2015)

My posts were deleted? I guess it's because we're not allowed to show rape.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 8, 2015)

Real talk. Wan isn't doing anything I could ban him for. If you really want him gone the secret is ignoring him.


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## Wan (Jan 8, 2015)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Because Wan is a lying, troll who's long worn out his welcome?



Your foggy, selective memory disagreeing with me doesn't make me a liar, IWD.

Though for being unwelcome, you sure seem to like greeting me with with loads of meaty posts for me to respond to.

I notice I haven't declared who I think would win.  That's something I tend to do, I guess.  For the record, going by what I've heard about the Marvel comics universe, I would bet on Steve.


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