# Tsunade Vs. Muu



## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Apr 14, 2014)

*location:* Open grassy Field
*Knowledge:* Full for tsunade because of Muu's reputation, none for Muu because he's never met her
*Distance:* 35 meters
*mindset:* both are in character
*restrictions:* None
*Conditions:* they both begin on foot. tsunade has katsuyu on her shoulder.

are tsunade's current  feats enough to take on muu? or does she still need to reveal more of her abilities in the manga before pitting her against top tier shinobi?


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## Kai (Apr 14, 2014)

Muu is one of the worst match ups imaginable for Tsunade.

Simply put: No way to detect Muu, no defense/healing against Jinton, and insufficient speed feats to avoid devastating AOE.

Muu annihilates her with mid difficulty.


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## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Apr 14, 2014)

i've had a feeling that this would be an unbalanced match-up.

but what about katsuyu's antennae's? wouldn't she be able to detect movement and share it with tsunade?


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## Bonly (Apr 14, 2014)

Yeah as Kai pretty much summed it up, Muu is a bad match up for Tsunade.


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## ARGUS (Apr 14, 2014)

Kai said:


> Muu is one of the worst match ups imaginable for Tsunade.
> 
> Simply put: No way to detect Muu, no defense/healing against Jinton, and insufficient speed feats to avoid devastating AOE.
> 
> Muu annihilates her with mid difficulty.


This,. thread// 
i would actually say that he will win low/mid diff though


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## animeboy1 (Apr 14, 2014)

I'd argue, that  Muu would have his chances against the Sannin. He tends to be severely underrated. His invisibility alone, would cause Tsunade a load of problems. None of her attacks are reaching an aerial Muu. A Jinton sweep is going to land, eventually.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 14, 2014)

Mu toys with her and dispatches her with 0 difficulty.


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## Cognitios (Apr 14, 2014)

Jinton > Regeneration
Flight > Short Range
Invisibility > Non sensor type

Muu jintons her head off and she dies.
Tsunade is just the worst matchup possible.
Waiting to see what Turrin says on portrayal though.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2014)

It's like people never see past regeneration when it comes to Tsunade...

Exactly what defense does Mū have against Tsunade summoning Katsuyu on top of him?


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## Dr. White (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Exactly what defense does Mū have against Tsunade summoning Katsuyu on top of him?



She can't summon Katsuya fully. Also:
-Mu has decent speed feats
-Mu is an amazing sensor
-Mu can fly/Go invisible
-Mu can make he incomplete summon version of Katsuya weightless and throw her, ala Onooki v Meteor.
-Mu could blast a hole through her, and fly through it. 

He is pretty much her worst match up.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> She can't summon Katsuya fully. Also:
> -Mu has decent speed feats
> -Mu is an amazing sensor
> -Mu can fly/Go invisible
> ...



She doesn't need to summon Katsuyu fully. Scaling from the roots of the giant tree, 10% Katsuyu, and Naruto's Kurama avatar would suggest that even 5% of it would amount to a few boss-sized ones.

A single boss sized Katsuyu is larger than Gamabunta, who Kishi stated was more than 100 meters. The distance is only 35 meters, meaning that if Tsunade summoned the slug in front of her it'd take up far more than enough space to squash Mū.

Mu has no speed feats suggesting he can get out from beneath something the size of that thing when it appears right above him in time and his invisibility is irrelevant if he still falls within the range of the landing, Jinton's charge-time would be jammed, and Mū hasn't displayed Ohnoki's weight altering techniques.

Ohnoki is the one renowned as the one of "both scales" (aka of weight shifting), not Mū. Just because they share Jinton and flight doesn't mean they share everything else.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 14, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Jinton > Regeneration
> Flight > Short Range
> Invisibility > Non sensor type
> 
> ...



I bet it will involve bits about 50%+ Katsuyu


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## Dr. White (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> > She doesn't need to summon Katsuyu fully. Scaling from the roots of the giant tree, 10% Katsuyu, and Naruto's Kurama avatar suggest she can still summon a few of the boss sized ones.
> 
> 
> She needed Sakura to help her, and IIRCwas healed by Naruto, and Katsuuya.
> ...


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

This is one of those matches that I feel is absolutely impossible to call. Tsunade's hype is a bit better than Mu's, but she is primarily a support ninja, so while she might be holistically a better ninja than Mu, I could still easily see Mu beating her in a fight. With that said I wouldn't be shocked to see Tsunade win ether.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2014)

You'd do well to remember that Tsunade only took up medical ninjutsu because of Nawaki's death, despite being recognized as a prodigy well before that alongside her contemporaries Jiraiya and Orochimaru, and that the same abilities she uses to support others have a myriad of uses in combat. It is called dual functioning- Tsunade's status as a medical ninja doesn't just preclude her battle ability.



Dr. White said:


> She needed Sakura to help her, and IIRCwas healed by Naruto, and Katsuuya.



Tsunade claims two Byakugō users equate to 10% of Katsuyu. If we take one Byakugō user away, then it should still equate to 5%. Not that 5% is necessary imho.



> When have we ever seen Tsunade resort to this IC? Maybe bloodlusted, but we don't even know if she can use FCD (only Jiraiya, Naruto, and Minato have shown it.)



We don't need to see her resort to it. There isn't any reason she _wouldn't_ when her opponent is at a distance and she knows that he has the capacity to take off flying while she herself does not. It is her most reliable method of catching him, and it isn't a tactic that carries along with it any sort of "last resort" nature.

We've seen Tsunade summon Katsuyu in front of her and to her side as opposed to directly beneath her palm, which is all that's necessary. She doesn't need the slug to appear sky high first and then fall down from who knows where to slam into him; it simply needs to appear and crush Mū beneath its tremendous weight by sitting on him.



> Also simply taking up that space isn't a sure kill, most random Anbu fodder can shushin ridiculously fast.



Since when can most random Anbu fodder _Shunshin_ "ridiculously fast"?



> His sensing combined with his decent speed feats (only been outreacted to by Madara/Naruto) allowed him to escape gaara's sand from out of nowhere. He also was outrunning shinobi for a while.



Gaara's sand arm is ridiculously small in comparison to a boss summon and Mū only moved a couple feet out of the way of its grasp, so that's a poor basis for him being able to avoid Katsuyu appearing on top of him.

Outrunning other shinobi, especially when you have a sizable head start, isn't pertinent unless you can support the idea that said shinobi themselves could avoid the summon landing on them.



> If he can make himself light enough to fly, and then reverse that effect he obviously has both, or else he wouldn't be able to use the jutsu without ever returning back.



Simply being light doesn't make something start flying around last time I checked, and I don't recall the flight technique ever being explained as being an application of the weight altering techniques.



> He was his disciple from a young age, and was taught all Mu knew (except invisibility). If both of them show flight, I think it's safe to assume they both can use jutsu in that category.



I don't think that's a safe assumption; being taught all Mū knew doesn't mean that Ohnoki knows _only_ what Mū taught him, especially given that he's outlived him by decades and has been noted to have improved by Madara and even Deidara.


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## Dr. White (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> > Tsunade claims two Byakugō users equate to 10% of Katsuyu. If we take one Byakugō user away, then it should still equate to 5%. Not that 5% is necessary imho.
> 
> 
> So it will be half the size of the huge on she summoned. Mu will sense her gathering her chakra and react. By this logic anyone not named Minato, Tobirama, Naruto, Madara, etc lose to Tsunade at this range if she has knowledge that they are dangerous.
> ...


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> She needed Sakura to help her, and IIRCwas healed by Naruto, and Katsuuya.


Actually it was an exhausted Tsunade and Sakura that summoned 10% Katsuya. Tsunade only was running on the chakra she got from Karin, which was further decreased by healing the other Gokage previously. Than after the summoning both still had enough chakra left over to heal the alliance at mass, for an extend period of time. 

It would not be surprising if Pain-Arc Tsunade with 3 Years time to store chakra in her Byakugo seal had more chakra than her exhausted self and Sakura combined; in-fact she probably had a great deal more. So Tsunade at her best, pulling out 10% Katsuya would hardly be surprising and I'd even be willing to buy into her summoning more than that.

Reason we don't see Tsunade pulling out these massive Katsuya is because she thinks first about support and therefore conserves her chakra so that she'll have a large amount of chakra left to heal after summoning Katsuya. Against Pain that was exactly the case. She summoned out a Boss-Sized Katsuya, than healed the village throughout Pain's invasion, and still had enough chakra to save the village from CST before collapsing. There is no way that translates to simply 1 Boss Sized Katsuya; obviously if she didn't use her chakra on healing and saving the village from CST, and instead put that into summoning, she'd pull out a ridiculously sized Katsuya.


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

Tsunade FCD soloing Mu. Jesus FlamingRain. 

The Tsuchikage would just blast a hole in Katsuyu with Jinton and fly out. I don't really believe in the FCD argument (for portrayal reasons, mostly), because it allows for people like Base Naruto & Saukra to take down established Kage (or others of that level) with almost no difficulty. 

Sakura vs. Mei? FCD GG.

Base Naruto vs. Deidara? FCD GG.

See what I mean...


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## RedChidori (Apr 14, 2014)

Kai said:


> Muu is one of the worst match ups imaginable for Tsunade.
> 
> Simply put: No way to detect Muu, no defense/healing against Jinton, and insufficient speed feats to avoid devastating AOE.
> 
> Muu annihilates her with mid difficulty.



Yep. Can't punch what you can't see. Muu obliterates her off the planet with Jinton, along with Katsuyu .


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## Jad (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade FCD soloing Mu. Jesus FlamingRain.



You don't get it. Tsunade has a plan to beat everyone and everything in the Naruto world.  

Anyways, Tsunade is just outclassed here. Best she could do is strip tease.


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## Kai (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This is one of those matches that I feel is absolutely impossible to call. Tsunade's hype is a bit better than Mu's, but she is primarily a support ninja, so while she might be holistically a better ninja than Mu, I could still easily see Mu beating her in a fight. With that said I wouldn't be shocked to see Tsunade win ether.


This is where you call upon mediums other than hype to form your conclusions.


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## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2014)

a flying opponent who can become completely undetectable and has a jutsu that vaporizes vs a strictly CQC opponent who's healing means jack if she's vaporized.

hm.......


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Mu will sense her gathering her chakra and react.



I never contested that Mū could react. I agree that he can, I simply don't believe he has any reliable defensive measure he can take upon reacting, and thus that him noticing is of little consequence.



> By this logic anyone not named Minato, Tobirama, Naruto, Madara, etc lose to Tsunade at this range if she has knowledge that they are dangerous.



No, this logic entails no such thing.



> Then why didn't she crush Deva path? Him and his paths were straight up wrecking the city, and Mecha path was about to blitz her. She could have summoned a portion to crush them while also sparing the city (they were in the outskirts).



She had already summoned enough of Katsuyu to comb the village and was siphoning Chakra for Shosen to/through her when a single Shosen demands considerable Chakra.

Deva showing up by himself meant the other five paths were still out attacking people and thus needed her assistance, and at that point she also knew that Deva possessed powers over gravitational forces and had prepared another strategy against it that likely required less Chakra to execute (which = more Chakra to siphon to Katsuyu).

She was completely out of Chakra when Asura rushed her, because she had expended the remainder of it getting Katsuyu to cover all the villagers in time and was moments away from turning back into an old lady.



> Once again we have't seen anyone do this outside of the Jiraiya taught students. Even when Kabuto summoned island sized Manda 2 it did not have this affect.



That's because Kabuto summoned Manda in the middle of an ocean in order to go look for the island.



> We don't know how much accuracy she has.



We know she can summon Katsuyu right in front of her- _she already has the feat_. She doesn't need any more accuracy than that given the slug's sheer size.



> She could have ended oro and his snakes right there.



She was already exhausted. Orochimaru can just tank the slug landing on him, and so can Manda.



> Sorry I'm just referring to the anime effects (like for example after being dismissed by a hokage anbu usually shuhsin out of the room). But my point is that even genin have superhuman movement speed. Case and point being Neji running the course of Kidomaru;s arrow range in roughly seconds while being mortally wounded.



But how does that showcase ridiculous speed? The time it takes for Katsuyu to appear is a whole lot shorter than the time it took for laughably tiny in comparison Kidomaru to fall to the ground from the top of that tree, too.



> That isn't the point, the point is his reaction time. Even the Raikage (who has hyped synapses, and reactions via raiton armor) was caught by this.



Raikage's shroud wasn't activated. It's also fairly likely he didn't even see the sand in order to react to it in the first place given that it was already at their feet when it began reaching and they were all looking up at Gaara, while Mū was able to dodge simply because he could feel it coming.



> That perfectly explains how it is done. They allow themselves to be light so that they can float in the air, or push up for mobility. Hence why Onooki was able to allow his Kage guards to fly simply by touching them.



That doesn't explain it at all; they can actively ascend, descend, and change directions freely; those are all freedoms that simply becoming nearly weightless or even heavier would not afford.

Ohnoki being able to grant flight by touching his guards doesn't imply that the technique is an application of weight alteration, especially when Ohnoki suspiciously knelt down to tap a specific part of Akatsuchi's leg to grant him the ability despite needing to do no such thing to simply change someone's weight.



> except for the fact that it seems to be taught generationally. Hence why 3 Iwakage's have shown usage of it.



....This doesn't detract from anything I've said, because my statement would apply to any relationship between the First Tsuchikage and and Mū as well.



Rocky said:


> I don't really believe in the FCD argument (for portrayal reasons, mostly), because it allows for people like Base Naruto & Saukra to take down established Kage (or others of that level) with almost no difficulty.
> 
> Sakura vs. Mei? FCD GG.
> 
> ...



No.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with those examples.

I actually agree.


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> No.
> 
> I honestly don't see what's wrong with those examples.
> 
> I actually agree.



If your sense of character portrayal tells you that Sakura would low dif the Mizukage, you're doing it wrong.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> If your sense of character portrayal tells you that Sakura would low dif the Mizukage, you're doing it wrong.



What conceivable option does Mei have to stop the summon, Rocky?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This is one of those matches that I feel is absolutely impossible to call. Tsunade's hype is a bit better than Mu's, but she is primarily a support ninja, so while she might be holistically a better ninja than Mu, I could still easily see Mu beating her in a fight. With that said I wouldn't be shocked to see Tsunade win ether.



What a load of crap lol.


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> What conceivable option does Mei have to stop the summon, Rocky?



Blast Sakura with Suiton: Suiryūdan before she draws blood and summons. :ignoramus

Or just be Deidara against Sasuke, who could've won far more easily if he just summoned Manda on top of him.


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## Deadway (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Mū hasn't displayed Ohnoki's weight altering techniques.
> 
> Ohnoki is the one renowned as the one of "both scales" (aka of weight shifting), not Mū. Just because they share Jinton and flight doesn't mean they share everything else.



numbers

Unless you think Mu is physically as strong as the Raikage, then he's using weight shifting.


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## Mithos (Apr 14, 2014)

Muu counters both Tsunade's regeneration and Katsuyu's durability with his Jinton. He is arguably the worst match-up for her. 

She can't win.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Blast Sakura with Suiton: Suiryūdan before she draws blood and summons. :ignoramus



I have a hard time believing that from this distance of 35 meters.



> Or just be Deidara against Sasuke, who could've won far more easily if he just summoned Manda on top of him.



So are you telling me that because Sasuke, who not only started the fight at a shorter distance but isn't even known for his prolific use of snakes and was looking for info on Itachi's whereabouts, didn't kill Deidara by crushing him beneath Manda it wouldn't have worked if he had actually tried?



Deadway said:


> Nope
> 
> Unless you think Mu is physically as strong as the Raikage, then he's using weight shifting.



Lifting that slab of rock doesn't make Mū nearly as strong as Raikage.


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## Deadway (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Lifting that slab of rock doesn't make Mū nearly as strong as Raikage.



Slab of rock?






Oh, I'll just leave this here as well.
Nope


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 14, 2014)

Deadway said:


> Nope
> 
> Unless you think Mu is physically as strong as the Raikage, then he's using weight shifting.



I *really* don't know what to tell you if you think lifting a seven-foot slab of rock automatically deems you on-par with one of the strongest hitters in this manga.

_Any_ Genin whose capable of casually launching themselves dozens of meters forward with a single jump could accomplish that. Yes, that means Part 1 Base Naruto could lift that rock as well.

Anyways, I think Muu wins this, with ease. 35 meters is _plenty_ a distance for Muu to head to the skies and vanish from the Fifth's line of sight before she reaches him, and from there, she's a blind sitting duck for his Particle Style techniques that I don't see her regeneration techniques rendering null. Her lack of sensory abilities is absolutely going to _crush_ her; Muu can literally levitate 5 meters from her, charge a blast, and atomize her before she gets the chance to escape.

I see the _'Food Cart Destroyer'_ method being suggested as a plausible way for Tsunade to achieve victory - but have we ever seen *Katsuyu* being summoned in such a way? I was under the impression that having a familiar summoned from hundreds of meters above was reserved only for toad users.

In any case, I doubt Muu won't react in time to witness Katsuyu plummeting towards him (he reacted fine to Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto), and simply blast a hole straight through her body, allowing him to pass through unscathed. 

Muu wins. Easily, I might add.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2014)

Deadway said:


> Slab of rock?



Yes.



> Oh, I'll just leave this here as well.
> Nope



At a potentially far larger starting distance with an army to protect, Ohnoki would be needed because Mū's Jinton would need to be blocked (which can only be done with another Jinton) from the get-go lest they wish to risk all the troops.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Kai said:


> This is where you call upon mediums other than hype to form your conclusions.


Or...and I know this is hard to accept, we simply say that we don't know the answer 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> What a load of crap lol.


Sorry, but if given a choice between deciding whether someone saying they don't know who wins and  the feat based alternative of Mu one-shotting a Sannin instantly with Jinton or Tsunade instantly one shotting Mu with FCD; i'll go with IDK who wins as the less crap shoot point to make.


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## trance (Apr 14, 2014)

Mu obliterates her. She has no way to detect him when he becomes invisible and his Jinton completely bypasses her regeneration.


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## Kai (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Or...and I know this is hard to accept, we simply say that we don't know the answer


Except, you know, that would be someone's answer (formed conclusion).


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I have a hard time believing that from this distance of 35 meters.



...why. 35 meters isn't some asinine distance and Suiton: Suiryūdan is a projectile.



> Isn't even known for his prolific use of snakes



Sakura is for slugs?



> And was looking for info on Itachi's whereabouts



He tried to cut Deidara in half.



> It wouldn't have worked if he had actually tried?



That's faulty logic. I never said such a thing, but I just don't like the FCD argument because it's lolzy. Like, it's cool. Sakura is totally >> Mu.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Kai said:


> Except, you know, that would be someone's answer (formed conclusion).



I think you know what I meant


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> 35 meters isn't some asinine distance and Suiton: Suiryūdan is a projectile.



A projectile that has to first travel that entire distance and land all before Sakura can so much as bite her thumb and put it on something.



> Sakura is for slugs?



No, but I assumed she would be trying the tactic given the nature of the example.



> He tried to cut Deidara in half.



And leave Tobi, but then Deidara dodged and ended up being the one left over.

Manda would have crushed them both (as far as Sasuke knew, since he didn't know about intangibility), leaving nobody to question.



> That's faulty logic. I never said such a thing, but I just don't like the FCD argument because it's lolzy. Like, it's cool. Sakura is totally >> Mu.



Sakura and victory in the same sentence just has a negative stigma about it regardless of plausibility. That's cheating to use her as an example.


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## Deadway (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes.



So according to you, the average human being can lift this.


Ok.




FlamingRain said:


> At a potentially far larger starting distance with an army to protect, Ohnoki would be needed because Mū's Jinton would need to be blocked (which can only be done with another Jinton) from the get-go lest they wish to risk all the troops.



Right, cause we all know how that worked out had Gaara not been there.

Nope


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 14, 2014)

Deadway said:


> So according to you, the average human being can lift this.



I don't know if you've been paying attention the past ten years this manga has been in circulation but...

Ninjas aren't 'average human beings', let alone fucking Muu.


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> A projectile that has to first travel that entire distance and land all before Sakura can so much as bite her thumb and put it on something.



If she *immediately* concludes that she needs to use Food Cart Destroyer to win, despite the fact that she's never even tried or suggested it (nor has Tsunade, for that matter). 

I'm open to characters trying things they don't normally do in the Battledome, but right as the match begins, before the opposition has any time to counter? I don't know about that...



> No, but I assumed she would be trying the tactic given the nature of the example.



The plausibility of it happening (and working) includes more than just the opposing ninja's ability to avoid it.



> And leave Tobi, but then Deidara dodged and ended up being the one left over.
> 
> Manda would have crushed them both (as far as Sasuke knew, since he didn't know about intangibility), leaving nobody to question.



I don't understand. Sasuke tried to cut through _both_ of them, but Deidara jumped out of the way. If Sauce wanted to question them, I don't think he would've flickered into combat at all...



> Sakura and victory in the same sentence just has a negative stigma about it regardless of plausibility. That's cheating to use her as an example.



Dammit. Fucking touche.


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## Deadway (Apr 14, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I don't know if you've been paying attention the past ten years this manga has been in circulation but...
> 
> Ninjas aren't 'average human beings', let alone fucking Muu.



Don't know if you've been paying attention to this thread, or our arguments in general, but this FlamingRain person seems to think Mu can lift this without any modifications or in other words using pure muscle, hence my response that you quoted.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 14, 2014)

Deadway said:


> Don't know if you've been paying attention to this thread, or our arguments in general, but this FlamingRain person seems to think Mu can lift this without any modifications or in other words using pure muscle, hence my response that you quoted.



Did you just flat-out ignore the reply I gave you on the previous page? It explains pretty clearly why *superhuman* ninja Muu should be capable of lifting seven-feet slabs of rock.

I really shouldn't have to explain this at all, but you seem to have problems grasping this, thus here we are. FlamingRain is right, actually.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 14, 2014)

Horrid match up jinton trolls her to hard. The flight and invisibility is just a added bonus.


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## The Undying (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade FCD soloing Mu. Jesus FlamingRain.
> 
> The Tsuchikage would just blast a hole in Katsuyu with Jinton and fly out. I don't really believe in the FCD argument (for portrayal reasons, mostly), because it allows for people like Base Naruto & Saukra to take down established Kage (or others of that level) with almost no difficulty.
> 
> ...



Eh, I would think most capable ninja can react to FCD in time, considering that its free-falling speed is dependent on terminal velocity and starting distance . I can only recall Naruto using it one time, and he had to incapacitate Zetsu first (the toad's shadow also suggests that it was a pretty far distance above Zetsu).

In any case, I don't see FCD being a problem for Muu at all. I'll say he can circumvent it if he sees it coming, but that's assuming that Tsunade can use FCD in the first place. Muu is Tsunade's worst match-up and would win pretty comfortably in my opinion.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 14, 2014)

Deadway said:


> So according to you, the average human being can lift this.
> 
> 
> Ok.



No, but the average _ninja_ can.

Lee had tier 3/average strength in the Forest of Death, and was effortlessly ripping trees out of the ground much larger than his own body using a single arm.

So I don't believe Mū had to be using enhancements to lift that slab of rock.



> Right, cause we all know how that worked out had Gaara not been there.
> 
> *Another perspective*



They were safely distanced from the army at that point.



Rocky said:


> If she *immediately* concludes that she needs to use Food Cart Destroyer to win, despite the fact that she's never even tried or suggested it.



I was kind of assuming that for the purpose of the example as well.



> I'm open to characters trying things they don't normally do in the Battledome, but right as the match begins, before the opposition has any time to counter? I don't know about that...



Not sure if we're still talking about Sakura or Tsunade again, but if it's the latter I think the Slug Princess would attempt it so early mainly because of the knowledge stipulations and my belief that early summoning is reasonably IC for any of the Sannin to begin with.

She _knows_ she's up against a primarily if not exclusively long-ranged fighter who could become an invisible flying death-ray at any given moment, and that her choices are to either use her most wide-reaching option and summon a gigantic slug well over 100 meters and catch him, or try closing the distance herself and meanwhile hope he doesn't fly off and disappear before she gets there.

It really doesn't seem like a hard decision (it'd actually seems pretty silly not to try the Katsuyu route).



> The plausibility of it happening (and working) includes more than just the opposing ninja's ability to avoid it.



I agree.



> Sasuke tried to cut through _both_ of them, but Deidara jumped out of the way.



I thought he just tried to cut Deidara, who Tobi happened to be standing right behind, and unintentionally wound up cutting Tobi once Deidara leapt out of the way.



> If Sauce wanted to question them, I don't think he would've flickered into combat at all...



I still think he would have, simply because it doesn't seem likely that S-Rank ninja would readily reveal something about members of their organization unless they already knew their interrogator was a true threat to them.



> Dammit. Fucking touche.


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Not sure if we're still talking about Sakura or Tsunade again, but if it's the latter I think the Slug Princess would attempt it so early mainly because of the knowledge stipulations and my belief that early summoning is reasonably IC for any of the Sannin to begin with.
> 
> She _knows_ she's up against a primarily if not exclusively long-ranged fighter who could become an invisible flying death-ray at any given moment, and that her choices are to either use her most wide-reaching option and summon a gigantic slug well over 100 meters and catch him, or try closing the distance herself and meanwhile hope he doesn't fly off and disappear before she gets there.
> 
> It really doesn't seem like a hard decision (it'd actually seems pretty silly not to try the Katsuyu route).



I understand the logic behind _why_ she would attempt such a strategy. However, this is something she's never done, so it brings into question just how quickly she will employ it. When the fight starts, and a list of possible battle tactics flow though Tsunade's head, how quickly is "Summon Katsuyu on top of my opponent" going to pop up? Will it be faster than Mu simply flying off and turning invisible? 

I don't know myself, and actually I think it's just a matter of opinion. I lean towards Mu being faster, because while brief, the time it takes Tsunade to run through her actual _IC_ combat methods and dismiss them should be enough for Mu to fly off and disappear. My sense of portrayal also tells me – looking at Tsunade's abilities, then looking at Mu's – that Mu has all the right tools for completely countering her. Jinton is a superb choice for dealing with Byakugo, and flight keeps him away from her frighting strength. Losing to FCD, a gimmick Jutsu....doesn't sit right.

______

If we're talking about Tsunade with full knowledge on an opponent that is unquestionably a bad match up for her (ie. this thread), then I agree that the probability of her resorting to something like FCD incredibly early increases. If we're speaking of someone like Sakura, who has a _neutral_ match up against Mei (and doesn't summon nearly as often as a Sannin would), then I see it as incredibly unlikely. Sakura wouldn't even *think* of the technique before Mei had already bulldozed her with a massive water dragon, closed the distance, and melted her face off.


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## Sans (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Actually it was an exhausted Tsunade and Sakura that summoned 10% Katsuya. Tsunade only was running on the chakra she got from Karin, which was further decreased by healing the other Gokage previously. Than after the summoning both still had enough chakra left over to heal the alliance at mass, for an extend period of time.
> 
> It would not be surprising if Pain-Arc Tsunade with 3 Years time to store chakra in her Byakugo seal had more chakra than her exhausted self and Sakura combined; in-fact she probably had a great deal more. So Tsunade at her best, pulling out 10% Katsuya would hardly be surprising and I'd even be willing to buy into her summoning more than that.
> 
> Reason we don't see Tsunade pulling out these massive Katsuya is because she thinks first about support and therefore conserves her chakra so that she'll have a large amount of chakra left to heal after summoning Katsuya. Against Pain that was exactly the case. She summoned out a Boss-Sized Katsuya, than healed the village throughout Pain's invasion, and still had enough chakra to save the village from CST before collapsing. There is no way that translates to simply 1 Boss Sized Katsuya; obviously if she didn't use her chakra on healing and saving the village from CST, and instead put that into summoning, she'd pull out a ridiculously sized Katsuya.



It's *Katsuyu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sorry, but if given a choice between deciding whether someone saying they don't know who wins and  the feat based alternative of Mu one-shotting a Sannin instantly with Jinton or Tsunade instantly one shotting Mu with FCD; i'll go with IDK who wins as the less crap shoot point to make.



This isn't *impossible* to call. Why ? Because Tsunade and Muu have pretty decisive displays of power and skill and they aren't close at all. Tsunade doesn't have the means to battle an invisible, undetectable, high mobility mid range fighter. End of the line.

And, just to make you happy, they don't have similar portrayal as well. Muu was clearly portrayed to be a more fearsome shinobi than Tsunade. Tsunade has barely any hype at all aside from the classic legendary sannin hype. But then, Sannin became famous as a team and Tsunade excels in the supportive role like you said, so she works best in a team while supporting others, not solo. 

She doesn't have a realistic shot @ winning this and everybody here knows it. And yes, your post was full of crap. The time has come for you to take a one way ticket to library and never come back. You've gotten old Turrin. BD isn't your ballpark anymore.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 15, 2014)

I disagree with everyone whose saying that Muu is a particularly bad match-up for Tsunade. In theory, an invisible, airborne Muu firing jintons _would_ be bad news for Tsunade. _However_, I question whether or not he will go invisible _straight away_ in this match up. Muu has no knowledge of Tsunade, and for all he knows she could simply be a fodder. When Muu engages Gaara and Onoki in battle he initially _doesn't bother_ shrouding himself in an invisibility cloak - even whenever Gaara's _method of detecting him_ couldn't be applied in the air. If he didn't do this against foes he did have knowledge on, I don't see why he would do it against an opponent that he doesn't.

Actually, I have reason to believe that Muu can't stay invisible while using offensive techniques, hence why Gaara was able to spot him whenever he went to attack Onoki from behind [1] Also, when Muu _initially went invisible_ against Onoki, he circumvented his inability to see from all angles by creating Iwa Bunshin which went _back to back_. That way it was impossible for him to be ambushed. Tsunade can do the exact same thing, but better. After summoning Katsuyu, she can have the slug split into potentially thousands of smaller clones, who can scatter themselves across the field in various angles, and immediately see Muu no matter where he reappears. The clones can alert Tsunade whenever she's in danger, and she can react accordingly. Tsunade ICly uses Katsuyu for information gathering/spreading purposes during battle (during the Pein arc) and has ICly summoned Katsuyu at the start of battle before (against Orochimaru). With full knowledge on an opponent who can turn invisible and attack from her blind-side, I'm fully inclined to believe that Tsunade will summon Katsuyu at the very outset of the match.

Tsunade once said herself that the only person who can stop Muu is Onoki. In other words, the only counter for jinton, is jinton itself. That would suggest that Tsunade herself didn't believe she could stop it. However, it is unknown how much knowledge Tsunade had on jinton, probably having never actually witnessed it in battle at that point. Did she for example, know that it was an extremely chakra-taxing technique? If she didn't know then, she is bound to have learned this by the time of her battle against Madara, where Onoki's ability to use jinton was hampered several times throughout the match due to his low reserves. Knowing that, she could try to exhaust the Tsuchikage's reserves to limit his use of the technique.

As for actually being hit by jinton herself, I don't believe it's speed is beyond Tsunade's evasive ability. She can jump around and evade it so long as she can actually see where it's coming from, which she will as long as Katsuyu is present on the battlefield. As Muu wastes chakra using jinton, Tsunade actually conserves chakra by relying on nothing but her evasive skill.

If Tsunade gets into close range then I think Muu is buggered. Base Ei and Tsunade attacked in unison after being teleported to the battlefield in a lightning bolt, and Ei outright _blitzed_ Muu, suggesting that Tsunade would have done the same thing. Now, I appreciate that in that instance Muu could not use his sensing quick enough to anticipate Ei's attack, but Muu is still fairly featless as far as close quarter combat is concerned, and against an opponent as skilled as Tsunade I fear he wouldn't perform particularly well.

It is true that Muu was able to _dodge KCM Naruto's rasengan_, however, Naruto was simply _falling from the sky_, meaning his speed was dependant on gravity and not on his own skill. This meant Naruto's attack was not particularly fast. Muu had ample time to anticipate the attack and dodge accordingly.

In my opinion, Muu will exhaust his chakra reserves trying to hit Tsunade with jinton attacks and missing, especially if he keeps up his invisibility cloak for prolonged periods. After that it will simply be a game of tag, and as Tsunade is the faster of the two, she will catch up to him and end him with a powerful blow. The various Katsuyu clones scattered throughout the battlefield will no doubt help her also. 

*TLDR:* In the end, this is one of those matches where Tsunade won't need to fall back on regeneration to pull off a win. She dodges jinton, uses Katsuyu clones to detect him while he's going invisible, and once he exhausts himself she runs up to him and kills him. I think she wins mid-difficulty.​​


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## Mercurial (Apr 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> This isn't *impossible* to call. Why ? Because Tsunade and Muu have pretty decisive displays of power and skill and they aren't close at all. Tsunade doesn't have the means to battle an invisible, undetectable, high mobility mid range fighter. End of the line.
> 
> And, just to make you happy, they don't have similar portrayal as well. Muu was clearly portrayed to be a more fearsome shinobi than Tsunade. Tsunade has barely any hype at all aside from the classic legendary sannin hype. But then, Sannin became famous as a team and Tsunade excels in the supportive role like you said, so she works best in a team while supporting others, not solo.
> 
> She doesn't have a realistic shot @ winning this and everybody here knows it. And yes, your post was full of crap. The time has come for you to take a one way ticket to library and never come back. You've gotten old Turrin. BD isn't your ballpark anymore.



Grimmjow solo'd like a healthy Itachi couldn't even dream to 

Btw, Mu casually low diffs Tsunade.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 15, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I disagree with everyone whose saying that Muu is a particularly bad match-up for Tsunade. In theory, an invisible, airborne Muu firing jintons _would_ be bad news for Tsunade. _However_, I question whether or not he will go invisible _straight away_ in this match up. Muu has no knowledge of Tsunade, and for all he knows she could simply be a fodder. When Muu engages Gaara and Onoki in battle he initially _doesn't bother_ shrouding himself in an invisibility cloak - even whenever Gaara's _method of detecting him_ couldn't be applied in the air. If he didn't do this against foes he did have knowledge on, I don't see why he would do it against an opponent that he doesn't.
> 
> Actually, I have reason to believe that Muu can't stay invisible while using offensive techniques, hence why Gaara was able to spot him whenever he went to attack Onoki from behind [1] Also, when Muu _initially went invisible_ against Onoki, he circumvented his inability to see from all angles by creating Iwa Bunshin which went _back to back_. That way it was impossible for him to be ambushed. Tsunade can do the exact same thing, but better. After summoning Katsuyu, she can have the slug split into potentially thousands of smaller clones, who can scatter themselves across the field in various angles, and immediately see Muu no matter where he reappears. The clones can alert Tsunade whenever she's in danger, and she can react accordingly. Tsunade ICly uses Katsuyu for information gathering/spreading purposes during battle (during the Pein arc) and has ICly summoned Katsuyu at the start of battle before (against Orochimaru). With full knowledge on an opponent who can turn invisible and attack from her blind-side, I'm fully inclined to believe that Tsunade will summon Katsuyu at the very outset of the match.
> 
> ...



_back to back_

Mu won't get hit by Tsunade unless he decides to tank her. Considering that he isn't a CQC fighter he won't try to do so. 

Its not like Tsunade has any subtle techniques that require exclusive knowledge. Her only means of offense is just closing the distance and kicking or punching Mu. No one needs any kind of prior knowledge to avoid such straight forward attacks. 

Muu is a sensor, he'll know that Tsunade is concetrating her chakra in her attacks and he'll know immediately that he needs to stay away. Plus Tsunade's strength becomes apparent because of the damage she causes on the environment.  _back to back_

In otherwords, despite the fact knowledge is stacked in Tsunade's favor here, it isn't enough to give her some kind of an edge. It also doesn't change much in regards to coping with Mu's arsenal. She still doesn't have any way of detecting him. And whats she going to do against Jinton ? Punch it ? _back to back_


Lol'd @ Tsunade continously evading Jinton. That was a good one.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 15, 2014)

Tsunade verses Muu
Samurai Champloo

S-S-S-Samurai.


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## Rocky (Apr 15, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> *TLDR:* In the end, this is one of those matches where Tsunade won't need to fall back on regeneration to pull off a win. She dodges jinton, uses Katsuyu clones to detect him while he's going invisible, and once he exhausts himself she runs up to him and kills him. I think she wins mid-difficulty.



This was a detailed post, but _this_ is its focus? Tsunade _continuously evades_ Jinton...?

I understand and approve of the Katsuyu strategy being used similar to Onoki's clone tactic, but Tsunade is not fast enough to run away from Mu's Jinton until he tires out. Maybe Gai, Raikage, or Minato...but not Tsunade, no matter how trained in evasion she is. It can be swung like a lightsaber, and it has decent AoE. How exactly can Tsunade just...run from it.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I understand the logic behind _why_ she would attempt such a strategy. However, this is something she's never done, so it brings into question just how quickly she will employ it. When the fight starts, and a list of possible battle tactics flow though Tsunade's head, how quickly is "Summon Katsuyu on top of my opponent" going to pop up? Will it be faster than Mu simply flying off and turning invisible?
> 
> I don't know myself, and actually I think it's just a matter of opinion. I lean towards Mu being faster, because while brief, the time it takes Tsunade to run through her actual _IC_ combat methods and dismiss them should be enough for Mu to fly off and disappear. My sense of portrayal also tells me – looking at Tsunade's abilities, then looking at Mu's – that Mu has all the right tools for completely countering her. Jinton is a superb choice for dealing with Byakugo, and flight keeps him away from her frighting strength. Losing to FCD, a gimmick Jutsu....doesn't sit right.



Given that Mū is completely bereft of knowledge on Tsunade and apparently didn't fly off until Ohnoki multiplied himself with Iwabunshin and drastically expanded his line-of-sight after they had been canceling out each other's Jintons over and over I doubt he'd be in a position to avoid the tactic by the time Tsunade decides to implement it.

I also disagree with the tactic being brushed off simply because it's a "gimmick Jutsu" (whatever the mess that means). Repeatedly, this manga has demonstrated that a Jutsu does what it does and its as simple as that: a mere transformation technique afforded Naruto and Gamabunta the opportunity to seal up the One Tailed Beast, Deidara nearly wiped out the entirety of team Gai with a clone while something as simple as a reverse summon allowed Sasuke to avoid his suicidal ultimate technique, Tsunade prepared to counter _Shinra Tensei_ simply by gripping the ground with the Chakra in her feet, Zetsu managed to avoid FRS by using a nameless tree-root to throw it off, Gaara's no-name desert sand initially circumvented the defense of Madara's _Susano'o_, etc., etc., etc.

Kiba lost to a fart and Kawarimi no Sakura could have slit everyone's throat in the Forest of Death if she were smart.

If something being a gimmick detracted from its effectiveness against powerful adversaries then none of those things would have ever happened, so I'm apprehensive about just sweeping it under the rug when Mū isn't even an established superior of Tsunade. "Mū has counters to some of Tsunade's strengths and they sound cooler than Tsunade's theoretical counters to his- that means Tsunade is stupid and exclusively close-range despite being able to drop giant creatures at will" isn't how it works given what has transpired on numerous occasions in this manga.

At least, that's not what my sense of portrayal tells me.



> ______
> 
> If we're talking about Tsunade with full knowledge on an opponent that is unquestionably a bad match up for her (ie. this thread), then I agree that the probability of her resorting to something like FCD incredibly early increases. If we're speaking of someone like Sakura, who has a _neutral_ match up against Mei (and doesn't summon nearly as often as a Sannin would), then I see it as incredibly unlikely. Sakura wouldn't even *think* of the technique before Mei had already bulldozed her with a massive water dragon, closed the distance, and melted her face off.



We seem to be on more or less the same page here, though.


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## Dr. White (Apr 15, 2014)

Tsunade for Top Tier


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## Rocky (Apr 15, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Given that Mū is completely bereft of knowledge on Tsunade and apparently didn't fly off until Ohnoki multiplied himself with Iwabunshin and drastically expanded his line-of-sight after they had been canceling out each other's Jintons over and over I doubt he'd be in a position to avoid the tactic by the time Tsunade decides to implement it.



I suppose....but this still seems like a matter of opinion. Tsunade has to think up this tactic, and it may be after Mu has already put himself in a position to avoid (or just outright killed Tsunade with Jinton). It all depends on how quickly one believes Tsunade will think this up. _If_ its right away....then sure I'll concede that she wins. I'm just not completely convinced it will be right away...

Worst comes to worst, what about Jinton blowing a hole in Katsuyu allowing Mu to escape (before he's crushed)?



> I also disagree with the tactic being brushed off simply because it's a "gimmick Jutsu" (whatever the mess that means). Repeatedly, this manga has demonstrated that a Jutsu does what it does and its as simple as that: a mere transformation technique afforded Naruto and Gamabunta the opportunity to seal up the One Tailed Beast, Deidara nearly wiped out the entirety of team Gai with a clone while something as simple as a reverse summon allowed Sasuke to avoid his suicidal ultimate technique, Tsunade prepared to counter _Shinra Tensei_ simply by gripping the ground with the Chakra in her feet, Zetsu managed to avoid FRS by using a nameless tree-root to throw it off, Gaara's no-name desert sand initially circumvented the defense of Madara's _Susano'o_, etc., etc., etc.



Keep it coming.  My Minato FCD argument is growing more powerful. I'm almost rooting for you in all of this.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I suppose....but this still seems like a matter of opinion. Tsunade has to think up this tactic, and it may be after Mu has already put himself in a position to avoid (or just outright killed Tsunade with Jinton). It all depends on how quickly one believes Tsunade will think this up. _If_ its right away....then sure I'll concede that she wins. I'm just not completely convinced it will be right away...
> 
> Worst comes to worst, what about Jinton blowing a hole in Katsuyu allowing Mu to escape (before he's crushed)?



I agree, I just believe Tsunade has a fair chance under these circumstances.

I'm pretty confident that a summon's appearance would jam Jinton's charge-time, though.



> Keep it coming.  My Minato FCD argument is growing more powerful. I'm almost rooting for you in all of this.



I knew it.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Apr 15, 2014)

Muu flies up and fires a huge jinton and turns tsunade into a particle sized mess


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> This was a detailed post, but _this_ is its focus? Tsunade _continuously evades_ Jinton...?
> 
> I understand and approve of the Katsuyu strategy being used similar to Onoki's clone tactic, but Tsunade is not fast enough to run away from Mu's Jinton until he tires out. Maybe Gai, Raikage, or Minato...but not Tsunade, no matter how trained in evasion she is. It can be swung like a lightsaber, and it has decent AoE. How exactly can Tsunade just...run from it.



Jinton isn't really _that_ fast, certainly not enough so that it's speed could pressure Gai, Yondaime Raikage or Minato _at all_. Tsunade has some of the biggest jumps of any characters in the entire manga, evident by her ability to leap across a vast battlefield with Gamabunta's sword in hand, or being able to jump a huge distance in a very short space of time to kick and smash open Madara's Susano'o. I don't think it is a matter of merely running from it, she can literally leap to the other side of the field in a heart-beat. 

I get that Muu can use jinton like a lightsaber but its not like he can do that repeatedly. After Onoki did that against Madara his chakra reserves lowered an awful lot, and he only used jinton like for a split second to cut down mokuton. I highly doubt Muu can sustain a focused blast that covers a huge range and follows Tsunade's every movement for any significant period of time. Also, whenever Muu's chakra reserves were cut in half by his body splitting jutsu, he became incapable of using jinton afterwards. If Muu's reserves go down by half he won't be able to use regular jinton blasts never mind super-charged lightsaber ones. 

Also note that it isn't IC for Muu to use those types of jinton blasts either,  and even for Onoki that was a BL move. In his final attack against Madara he still used the regular cube-version of jinton, he didn't resort to using that lightsabre form.​​


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## Dr. White (Apr 15, 2014)

Jinton at close range captured sasuke on the fly. Jinton battle between Mu and Onooki was on the fly as well. I love how we are willing to believe Tsunade can use a move she has never shown before, and blitz a top tier sensor/dude who can fly and make himself weightless. Yet, Tsunade the chick who Kabuto was keeping pace with, is evading close range jinton, and partial canyon blast? No I would not like to hear the story of Jesus Christ


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## SSMG (Apr 15, 2014)

Hmm this is a tough one to call. basically tsunade needs to close the gap asap or an invisble muu can snipe her head off. likewise muu will want to keep the distance between them and fire off jinton.

one thing tjat sicks though is we will never know mius stamina cuz his only showings are in edo form.


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## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Apr 15, 2014)

i think tsunade just needs more feats.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 15, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Jinton at close range captured sasuke on the fly.



At that point Sasuke was absolutely exhausted, having fought extensively with Ei, C and Darui, a plethora of samurai, and then the Sand Siblings later on. After that he narrowly evaded death against Mei Terumi. He could barely stand and his vision was clearly impaired.  Jinton catching him off guard shows nothing of it's speed, it merely shows the extent of Sasuke's exhaustion. 



> Jinton battle between Mu and Onooki was on the fly as well.



What does this even mean? 



> Yet, Tsunade the chick who Kabuto was keeping pace with, is evading close range jinton, and partial canyon blast? No I would not like to hear the story of Jesus Christ





Part II Tsunade >>>>>> Part I Tsunade. Part I Tsunade was rusty and out of shape. While she was struggling to keep up with Kabuto, a Part II Tsunade can effortlessly keep up with Base Ei, outspeed an airborne Onoki, successively parry five giant katon projectiles with her fists before her Kage peers can react, blitz a Susano'o clone and kick Madara only moments after reappearing out of a lightning bolt (which moves insanely fast).  _Even then_, Part I Kabuto had a 3.5 in both speed and taijutsu, which is way above average. Those stats were boosted further whenever he took a soldier pill. Tsunade being able to keep up with him at all is quite a feat in itself.

Kindly take your ignorance and shove it back up your ass.​​


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