# Edo Nagato vs Edo Itachi



## Crow (Sep 30, 2013)

Location  5 Kage vs Madara 
Restrictions Izanami, Tozuka Sword

Assume both of them have sealing tags


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 30, 2013)

Nagato wins. Bansho Ten'in + Soul Rip. Edo Itachi is no longer on the field. 

Itachi couldn't face Nagato directly in canon, needed KCM Naruto and Killer Bee to help him.


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## Enki (Sep 30, 2013)

Nagato stomps.


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## Crow (Sep 30, 2013)

GreenDBM90 said:


> Nagato stomps.



give an explanation


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## Enki (Sep 30, 2013)

Knight of Chaos said:


> give an explanation



Chibaku Tensei? Soul Rip + Bansho Tenin? Chou Shinra Tensei? No need for an explanation, it's obvious who the winner is.


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## kaminogan (Sep 30, 2013)

if itachi uses soosano at the begining then he most likely  wins,

would shinra tensei affect itachi while inside soosano? seeing as its more of a force of gravity(wich soosano and itachi is affected by)


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## kaminogan (Sep 30, 2013)

GreenDBM90 said:


> Chibaku Tensei? Soul Rip + Bansho Tenin? Chou Shinra Tensei? No need for an explanation, it's obvious who the winner is.




itachi had no trouble destroying a chibaku tensei albeit with B and narutos help,

bansho tenin can be countered by extending the hand with a seal or activating soosano,

and soul rip does require some time in wich a clone could attack nagato,

like wise nagato could use his asura arms to counter the clones,

but then theres tsukiyomi and if nagato looks at itachis eyes then he is in trouble,


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 30, 2013)

Tsukuyomi is useless on Nagato. For one, Nagato has the superior dojutsu and Uchiha blood in him considering he became the Third Rikudo, a base Sharingan can break Itachi's Tsukuyomi. For two, Nagato is a genjutsu master and a master of Yin Release.


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## Jagger (Sep 30, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> itachi had no trouble destroying a chibaku tensei albeit with B and narutos help,


Then, he can't do it. 

Anyway, I believe Nagato wins this one. But it's going to be a tougher fight than one with their humans forms. Why do I believe that? Because Human Path works in a close-range way and it's kind of slow compared to the long and fast Sword of Totsuka that is more convenient for this match between zombies. The only solution of it would be Nagato mutilating Itachi in several pieces and sealing him while he's regeneration.

Itachi's stamina problem is gone, so Amaterasu and Susano'O spam can become troublesome (though, it's kind of OOC for Itachi to spam his MS attacks, but considering hsi state, he might do it) but Nagato has already shown counters for it.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsukuyomi is useless on Nagato. For one, Nagato has the superior dojutsu and Uchiha blood in him considering he became the Third Rikudo, a base Sharingan can break Itachi's Tsukuyomi. For two, Nagato is a genjutsu master and a master of Yin Release.


Kurenai is also supposed to be a genjutsu master was caught under Itachi's genjutsu quite easily. I'm on Nagato's side, but you're underestimating Itachi's skill. Nagato has superior Dojutsu? Sorry, but have you forgotten the fact it doesn't matter the weapon you're choosing, but who uses it? 

There's a reason of Zetsu's statement: "_A novice with a kunai can be beaten by a master with a rock"_. Also, is there any evidence of Nagato's prowess with genjutsu that puts him on the same level as Itachi excluding portrayal and hype?


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## Bonly (Sep 30, 2013)

Nagato wins quite handily. Preta+Deva path to counter all Ninjutsu, Human path to rip the soul out of Itachi for a win, animal path to create distractions ect. Nagato is just to much for Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 30, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> For one, Nagato has the superior dojutsu



That he can't use to its full capacity because it was merely implanted.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> and Uchiha blood in him



Making stuff up? If he had any Uchiha powers, he would have shown them.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> a base Sharingan can break Itachi's Tsukuyomi.







SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> For two, Nagato is a genjutsu master and a master of Yin Release.



It's painful how wrong you are sometimes. The viz:



> *Jiraiya:* He who possessed the same pupils as the Sage of the Six Paths not only mastered every jutsu I taught him...He demonstrated the ability to achieve all 6 changes in nature, which is unheard of in a single person. He possessed power that was well versed in all mainstream ninjutsu...And had mastered all sorts of jutsu by the mere age of 10.



Not to mention you give Nagato credit for the genjutsu shields made out of paper, even though it was stated several times that they never saw Nagato. Only his angel: _the bitch made out of paper with all paper jutsu._


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 30, 2013)

Edo Nagato canonically "killed" Edo Itachi with a Shinra Tensei; Itachi's meaningful shots came in when Edo Nagato was forced to ignore Itachi.

That in-itself automatically tells us Edo Itachi isn't on the level to take Edo Nagato. In fact the fact Edo Nagato was considered to be Kabuto's second strongest Edo, not Edo Itachi, says a lot too.

That's not including the usual counters Nagato has:
- Amaterasu, Susanoo and Ninjutsu ... Preta Path absorbs.

- Tsukuyomi ... Nagato is a Rikudou whose got Uzumaki/Senju blood and the eyes of Madara Uchiha. He's got superior genetics and ocular powers to what Itachi said, and showed what, was the minimum requirement to break Tsukuyomi (base Sharingan and Uchiha DNA).

The only non-Rinnegan jutsu Nagato would need to use is chakra sensing, though, not as much given he's got to fight Itachi alone ITT. Rather than Itachi and two foes stronger than the former.

IMO Nagato>Itachi was established since the original Pain Rikudou days.



Strategoob said:


> > *Jiraiya:* He who possessed the same pupils as the Sage of the Six Paths not only mastered every jutsu I taught him...He demonstrated the ability to achieve all 6 changes in nature, which is unheard of in a single person. He possessed power that was well versed in all mainstream ninjutsu...And had mastered all sorts of jutsu by the mere age of 10.
> 
> 
> Not to mention you give Nagato credit for the genjutsu shields made out of paper, even though it was stated several times that they never saw Nagato. Only his angel: the bitch made out of paper with all paper jutsu.



So chakra sensing, the rain tracking jutsu, the barrier jutsu, the astral jutsu, the Genjutsu traps, messing up tracker shinobi's attempts to find him and the Rinnegan jutsu aren't demonstrations of Yin and Yang chakra? 

In fact didn't you read your own quote? _"He demonstrated the ability to achieve all 6 changes in nature, which is unheard of in a single person."_
Katon, Suiton, Doton, Raiton and Fuuton make five natures, what do you think makes chakra change number 6?  Yin/Yang chakra! Not to be confused with Yin-Yang style which fuses at least four basic elements.

Also the Genjutsu shields were not made of paper. The paper you saw was the information that Inochi's team was extracting. The actual Genjutsu had several doors.


Out of context. 
The context of that panel would've been proper if you referenced how Itachi made use of the Mangekyou Sharingan's most potent jutsu.


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## Bonly (Sep 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Edo Nagato canonically "killed" Edo Itachi with a Shinra Tensei;



When was this?


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## LostSelf (Sep 30, 2013)

It's proven that Edo are "useless" regenerating when they are badly hit. Itachi needed Sasuke to protect himself from Kabuto after he was cut in half, the third Raikage was helpless in the floor when he was hit by FRS.

Since Edo Tensei gives Itachi a bigger advantage to what would give Nagato. Shinra Tensei is still harder to avoid and predict than Susano'o and Totsuka. The chances of Itachi being hit by a powerful Shinra Tensei that leaves him regenerating on the floor are bigger to Itachi stabbing one of the best sensors in the manga with Totsuka.

If that doesn't work. Chibaku Tensei prior to Soul Rip after Itachi is destroyed to pieces would do the job as well.

Giving it to Nagato here.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Edo Nagato canonically "killed" Edo Itachi with a Shinra Tensei



Itachi was never shown to be hit.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That in-itself automatically tells us Edo Itachi isn't on the level to take Edo Nagato.



The user of Edo Tensei says differently,





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In fact the fact Edo Nagato was considered to be Kabuto's second strongest Edo, not Edo Itachi, says a lot too.



In the viz translation, Kabuto merely relies on the Planetrary Devastation technique as a backdrop plan, and isn't confident that it would work. He phrases it as "I still have this..." He doesn't insinuate that Nagato is a greater ninja.

In the end, Kabuto and Killer Bee hyped Itachi and contrasted him with Nagato because Itachi _is_ a "brilliant ninja." Besides, the combined techniques obliterated Chibaku Tensei, but that doesn't mean Itachi would be impotent alone.

The orb is vulnerable in Nagato's hands for quite sometime, and is by itself when thrown in the air. If Itachi is in close range, or even further away, and behaves proactively, there's nothing to suggest he can't handle it himself.

The Magatama isn't an explosive power, but a piercing power, like Raikiri. We saw single beads nearly pierce the _combined_ ultimate defenses of two Kages. Itachi lumps three beads together, so it piercing the black ball is feasible.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's not including the usual counters Nagato has: Amaterasu, Susanoo and Ninjutsu ... Preta Path absorbs.



That worked out well, canonically.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tsukuyomi ... Nagato is a Rikudou



He's not an Uchiha, couldn't use Uchiha abilities, and doesn't have their defense.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> IMO Nagato> Itachi was established since the original Pain Rikudou days.



Nagato was extra pathetic in those days.


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## LostSelf (Sep 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The user of Edo Tensei says differently,



Itachi > Madara.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Unless, he wasn't speaking about power .


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## Sadgoob (Sep 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> aren't demonstrations of Yin and Yang chakra?
> 
> In fact didn't you read your own quote? "He demonstrated the ability to achieve all 6 changes in nature



No shit. The debated and mistranslated term is "mastered." Not to mention that having other Yin abilities doesn't trasnlate to genjutsu or genjutsu defense, or the Nara Clan would be immune and whipping out nasty genjutsu themselves.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Also the Genjutsu shields were not made of paper.



In one scene they were paper, in another, they were paper doors.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Out of context.
> The context of that panel would've been proper if you referenced how Itachi made use of the Mangekyou Sharingan's most potent jutsu.



Nope. Here's the viz. 



> Tobi: If Itachi had really wanted to kill you .... you would most most certainly be dead.
> Sasuke: He used the Mangekyo Sharingan on me. So...
> *Tobi: Even your contingency plans were part of his calculations. Itachi had to pressure you during that battle.*
> Sasuke: .....!
> Tobi: I'm sure you already understand why?



Besides, Zetsu reasoned that the only way Sasuke could break out of a superior Sharingan dōjutsu's genjutsu was to have superior genjutsu skill, and we know that Sasuke was far below Itachi in that area... put two and two together.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> When was this?



The same time Bee and Naruto got smacked.



Strategoob said:


> Itachi was never shown to be hit.



So it was a coincidence that he took his time to save his comrades, just like it is a coincidence that it takes time for Edo Tensei's recovery to kick in? 


> The user of Edo Tensei says differently,



Anybody can say anything when you take a panel out of context; something you frequently do.
That entire talk was about identity, not power. In terms of power, that easily goes to Nagato, who is the _only_ Edo Tensei whose sealing pissed off Kabuto. As well as trigger him to use the strongest Edo he had.



> In the viz translation, Kabuto merely relies on the Planetrary Devastation technique as a backdrop plan, and isn't confident that it would work. He phrases it as "I still have this..." He doesn't insinuate that Nagato is a greater ninja.
> 
> And in the end, Kabuto and Killer Bee both hype Itachi and contrast him with Nagato because he's a "brilliant ninja."



Kabuto's facial markers and the fact he forgot about Itachi seems to indicate he believed it'd work. I.E. he thought that with his knowledge CT would be something the opposite team can't defend against. Fair enough Kabuto lacked intel on Bee and Naruto... but Itachi is another story. 

If you can show me how "brilliant ninja" equates to "OMG you're the strongest shinobi I've met", then I'd see it your way. In fact in that very fight Bee and Naruto were both talking about how strong Nagato was. 



> That worked out well, canonically.



Well hard to work out well when you're programmed not to react to attack/defend against other Edo Tensei. Ask Trollkage.



> He's not an Uchiha, couldn't use Uchiha abilities, and doesn't have their defense.



Of course he's not an Uchiha, he's superior to one being a Rikudou. Nagato has something better, a Rinnegan. He has access to the Rinnegan's tools. Now it just so happens this eye is more potent than an Uchiha's Sharingan/Mangekyou Sharingan.

Couple that with the fact he's a Rikudou and you get "lol Tsukuyomi". Even guy who lacked an Uchiha/Senju body and had the Sharingan had some defence against Tsukuyomi. 



> Nagato was extra pathetic in those days.



Cute. It doesn't change that back then, it was still established avatars of Nagato using weakened versions of his powers were considered stronger than Itachi.

In fact the interesting thing is both, as Pain and Nagato, there were characters who placed him above all other Akatsuki members, and most Edo shinobi... both groups included Itachi. In other words, in Kishimoto's eyes Itachi was always beneath Nagato in power, in life and after.



Strategoob said:


> No shit. The debated and mistranslated term is "mastered." Not to mention that having other Yin abilities doesn't trasnlate to genjutsu or genjutsu defense, or the Nara Clan would be immune and whipping out nasty genjutsu themselves.



The general message all translators agree on is that Nagato mastered the jutsu, hence Jiraiya saying his feat was unprecedented. 

If you really thought that would the Yin chakra factor, then you wouldn't have gone through the trouble of trying to discredit SSM12's idea that Nagato was a Yin chakra master (when he was using it against Itachi's Genjutsu).

However we know Yin chakra links to Genjutsu use, we also know that Genjutsu release is a mainstream Ninjutsu. It isn't hard to make a case for Nagato.



> In one scene there were paper, in another, they were paper doors.



There was no scene where they were paper.



> Nope. Here's the viz.
> 
> Besides, given that Zetsu reasoned that the only way Sasuke could break out of a superior Sharingan dōjutsu's genjutsu was to have superior genjutsu skill, and that we know that Sasuke was far below Itachi in that area, then go ahead and put two and two together.



Like I said before: _Out of context. The context of that panel would've been proper if you referenced how Itachi made use of the Mangekyou Sharingan's most potent jutsu._

We don't know Sasuke is far beneath Itachi in Genjutsu, you're just pulling that fact out of thin air. Especially when we saw Sasuke shut down every Genjutsu that Itachi used with the basic Sharingan.

Zetsu reasoning still stands. All the evidence that you _attempt_ to use to prove otherwise all generally refer to Itachi's Susanoo usage when looked at in the proper context.


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## Rocky (Sep 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The Magatama isn't an explosive power, but a piercing power, like Raikiri. We saw single beads nearly pierce the _combined_ ultimate defenses of two Kages. Itachi lumps three beads together, so it piercing the black ball is feasible.



I don't know about all that.

This seems to be the standard "Itachi is not helpless against Chibaku Tensei" argument. I personally think that it wasn't the pile of rocks covering Chibaku Tensei that made it durable, but the black mass of Chakra itself. There's no evidence _at all_ that Magatama would be powerful enough. It certainly wasn't portrayed that way, and I would say the same of KCM Naruto's Rasenshuriken & Bee's Bijuudama.


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## Bonly (Sep 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The same time Bee and Naruto got smacked.



Do you have any proof that he was "killed" like you claim or are you just making an assumption because I don't recall seeing him get "killed"?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 30, 2013)

Nagato's techniques are simply out of Itachi's league.

Nagato with Mid difficulty.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 30, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Itachi > Madara.



In destructive power, no doubt, but certainly not in all ways. Itachi had unique illusion abilities that made him a critical piece in Kabuto's plan to counteract Obito, because Itachi had a special mass (lunar?) genjutsu:


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## Sadgoob (Sep 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Anybody can say anything when you take a panel out of context; something you frequently do.
> That entire talk was about identity, not power.



Context:



So just to recap, because I'm getting the feeling that you need me recap things for you, the context of the panel I linked for you - that is, the preceding sentence, was "you had many jutsu and much power." 

So you saying "it wasn't about power" or abilities and that I "take things out of context" is misguided, as is virtually everything else you've said in this thread. I'd really appreciate it if you knew what you were talking about.


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## LostSelf (Sep 30, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> In destructive power, no doubt, but certainly not in all ways. Itachi had unique illusion abilities that made him a critical piece in Kabuto's plan to counteract Obito, because Itachi had a special mass (lunar?) genjutsu:



Shikaku thought it was genjutsu that was controlling the aliance, and a powerful one, and since there were zombies around, the best one to think that was doing that was Itachi. But, he was wrong.

Kabuto as well, not even with Nagato's power Itachi would counteract Juubito's genjutsu.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 30, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Shikaku thought it was genjutsu that was controlling the aliance, and a powerful one, and since there were zombies around, the best one to think that was doing that was Itachi. But, he was wrong.
> 
> Kabuto as well, not even with Nagato's power Itachi would counteract Juubito's genjutsu.



Yes, but the inferences to be made from Nagato asking "why isn't Kabuto making use of your illusion powers?" or Itachi saying Kabuto was waiting for the right moment to unleash it... 

As well as Shikaku saying that only Itachi could do it, or even Ao saying that the area of effect was to wide for *even* Itachi, was to imply that Itachi had the genjutsu power to affect the world war. 

So no, Itachi will never be shattering mountain ranges like Madara or Nagato, but he definitely has unique abilities that could be seen as just as valuable by a chess master like Kabuto.

We just never saw them in action. Yet. Maybe, just _maybe_ a Rinnegan or Edo Tensei user fighting Jūbito will bring him back and we'll see him make good on some of that hype.​


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## Trojan (Sep 30, 2013)

Itachi is going to be part of the next moon. @.@


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## Sadgoob (Sep 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't know about all that.
> 
> This seems to be the standard "Itachi is not helpless against Chibaku Tensei" argument. I personally think that it wasn't the pile of rocks covering Chibaku Tensei that made it durable, but the black mass of Chakra itself. There's no evidence _at all_ that Magatama would be powerful enough. It certainly wasn't portrayed that way, and I would say the same of KCM Naruto's Rasenshuriken & Bee's Bijuudama.



I don't think the little black orb was portrayed as being able to tank an Amaterasu or the evidently even stronger 3-magatama bullet, but to each his own, I suppose.​


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## Trojan (Sep 30, 2013)

magatama is only as strong as a Kunai with explosion tag. It has always been compared to that!


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 30, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Kurenai is also supposed to be a genjutsu master was caught under Itachi's genjutsu quite easily. I'm on Nagato's side, but you're underestimating Itachi's skill. Nagato has superior Dojutsu? Sorry, but have you forgotten the fact it doesn't matter the weapon you're choosing, but who uses it?


Kurenai also broke Itachi's genjutsu and he complimented that she even managed to *catch him in one.* And Nagato has the superior dojutsu and has mastered it. He could use all the Path abilities, is a Yin Release master (where Genjutsu _comes from_) and has all the feats to show he can break Tsukuyomi.


> There's a reason of Zetsu's statement: "_A novice with a kunai can be beaten by a master with a rock"_. Also, is there any evidence of Nagato's prowess with genjutsu that puts him on the same level as Itachi excluding portrayal and hype?


How about the genjutsu traps that Nagato put in each and every one of his subordinates in Amegakure that even Inoichi had trouble getting through? Also the manga goes on that he mastered all the Rinnegan's powers, and Amegakure specializes in genjutsu as well. Nagato has the superior dojutsu, genjutsu prowess at or above Itachi, and is stronger than him. How is Nagato a 'novice' with the Rinnegan anyway too?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 30, 2013)

The whole levels of Dōjutsu are messed up to be honest. You would think the Rinnegan would be able to fodderise the Mangekyō, but they can compete with the Rinnegan, and I'd even say EMS Madara could beat Nagato.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 30, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> The whole levels of Dōjutsu are messed up to be honest. You would think the Rinnegan would be able to fodderise the Mangekyō, but they can compete with the Rinnegan, and I'd even say EMS Madara could beat Nagato.


Of course EMS Madara would beat Nagato. He was number 2 in the entire world against Hashirama. Perfect Susano'o is a complete counter to most of Nagato's abilities, barring Chibaku Tensei but since PS is comparable to a fully released Biju in power, it should be able to claw out of it like KN8 Naruto did.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Do you have any proof that he was "killed" like you claim or are you just making an assumption because I don't recall seeing him get "killed"?



I can provide the support which says Edo Tensei regeneration takes time as well as Itachi's late appearance. All of which logically points to the conclusion that Itachi was "killed" when he got hit with the Shinra Tensei.

Now to entirely reject my stance, you must prove he _wasn't_ "killed". Of course unlike the stance I proposed, there is _no_ support for that.



Strategoob said:


> Context:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He just listed power, he didn't emphasize it. Your attempt to try to force a power meaning blinds you from what Kabuto was actually talking about identity. Hence Kabuto also mentioned his clan, the fact he had secrets and stopped a war. Again: it was all about _identity_.

So based on that I wouldn't say what I said about your approach was misguided. I simply think the evidence you use isn't particularly good as contextually speaking, they don't support what you purport they support.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 30, 2013)

Nagato bats away Itachi (and his Sasuno'o) with _Laser Explosion_ & _Shinra Tensei_ until he gets bored, and casually one shots with CST or CT, of both if he's feeling like being a genuine asshole that day

Low-Mid dif depending on Nags mood that day


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 30, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Of course EMS Madara would beat Nagato. He was number 2 in the entire world against Hashirama. Perfect Susano'o is a complete counter to most of Nagato's abilities, barring Chibaku Tensei but since PS is comparable to a fully released Biju in power, it should be able to claw out of it like KN8 Naruto did.



It does go against logic, though. It doesn't make much sense for a Dōjutsu that is one of harbingers of the Shinobi World to be weaker than a Dōjutsu that is derived from it.


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## Bonly (Sep 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I can provide the support which says Edo Tensei regeneration takes time as well as Itachi's late appearance. All of which logically points to the conclusion that Itachi was "killed" when he got hit with the Shinra Tensei.
> 
> Now to entirely reject my stance, you must prove he _wasn't_ "killed". Of course unlike the stance I proposed, there is _no_ support for that.



So no proof that he was "killed", just you making assumptions. Thanks.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> So no proof that he was "killed", just you making assumptions. Thanks.



An assumption which is more supported than the alternative. No thanks needed.


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## Bonly (Sep 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> An assumption which is more supported than the alternative. No thanks needed.



Indeed you are correct here.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Indeed you are correct here.



I see what you did there.


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## Bonly (Sep 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I see what you did there.



What did I do?


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## IchLiebe (Sep 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> So no proof that he was "killed", just you making assumptions. Thanks.



Notice how Itachi is between Naruto and Bee.

this comment


Here is the blast

this comment

Obviously hits Naruto in the face and Bee as well so logic concludes that Itachi was hit as well.


It is another 9pages after the attack landed until Itachi appears again.
this comment


And people please stop spouting this bullshit that Itachi is superior to Madara in any regard.

Madara could create a powerful genjutsu(at least superior to Sasuke's MS Genjutsu) with a generic sharingan genjutsu and control the entire environment which supports that he can alter time perception as well.


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## Bonly (Sep 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Notice how Itachi is between Naruto and Bee.
> 
> this comment
> 
> ...



That's pretty neat, doesn't really add anything new but ok.


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## Jagger (Sep 30, 2013)

Nagato hasn't shown any strong feats capable of breaking through Tsukuyomi. Even if he's able to break it before Itachi manipulates time and destroys his mind, he could end getting up sealed inside Totsuka's guard. Obviously, I'm not saying Itachi wins in this fight, but that he's getting underestimated on the genjutsu department.

That Nagato have Uchiha Madara's DNA? Well, guess what? He was never capable of using it on the same scale as Madara evidenced pulled a meteor several times bigger than Nagato's and this is probably the first time he used it on the battlefield. Madara's skill with the Rinnegan and talent with it is superior than Nagato's due the fact he's the original owner of those eyes (technically, he's not, but you get the point) and his Uchiha + Senju combination allows him to control it even better.

With that being said, Nagato still wins quite handly. He's got other counters for genjutsu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 30, 2013)

I've posted Nagato's genjutsu feats, as well as the fact he has mastered the very source of Genjutsu Jagger. Its not that Itachi's being underestimate, Nagato is. 

Madara had the Rinnegan briefly before giving it away to Nagato, he never mastered it. Nagato however has, given he can perform Gedo Rinnei Tensei (only those who mastered the Rinnegan are able to perform that) and has shown all of the Rinnegan abilities. Nagato became the Sandaime Rikudo, which means he has _both_ Senju and Uchiha genetic material in him and he could control it. 

What do you need to break Tsukuyomi? Uchiha blood and the Uchiha Dojutsu. Nagato has _both._


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 30, 2013)

Nagato was an Uzumaki who just had the Rinnegan eyes implanted in him. There is no Uchiha blood in his body, unless you think he had some transplanted inside him off-panel or the eyes magically gave him a fresh pack of Uchiha blood.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 30, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Nagato was an Uzumaki who just had the Rinnegan eyes implanted in him. There is no Uchiha blood in his body, unless you think he had some transplanted inside him off-panel or the eyes magically gave him a fresh pack of Uchiha blood.



We are talking about _Madara_ here, the chances of him fucking around with Nagato's body during his eye transplant as a boy don't seem to _far_ fetched considering what he did to Obito without his consent in the form of implanting chakra rods in him 

So while it's not definitive canon, it's by no means beyond the realm of impossibility. I just put the whole Nagato having Uchiha blood in the same boat as Sasukes "immunity" to poison via Oro despite it never being confirmed though implied


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 30, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Nagato was an Uzumaki who just had the Rinnegan eyes implanted in him. There is no Uchiha blood in his body, unless you think he had some transplanted inside him off-panel or the eyes magically gave him a fresh pack of Uchiha blood.


Nagato couldn't have become a Rikudo _without_ Uchiha Blood already being inside his body, Atlantic Storm. A Rikudou has both Uchiha and Senju DNA in them.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 30, 2013)

This match is unfair, considering Itachi's two best weapons against Nagato (Izanami and Totsuka no Tsurugi) have both been restricted. Nagato, on the other hand, doesn't have any restrictions at all.

Itachi would've had a hard enough time beating Nagato normally and there's no guarantee he could actually pull it off; there was no need to restrict him. Nagato obviously wins under these conditions.


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## Trojan (Sep 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> This match is unfair, considering Itachi's two best weapons against Nagato (Izanami and Totsuka no Tsurugi) have both been restricted. Nagato, on the other hand, doesn't have any restrictions at all.
> 
> Itachi would've had a hard enough time beating Nagato normally and there's no guarantee he could actually pull it off; there was no need to restrict him. Nagato obviously wins under these conditions.



how do you know that the izanami would work against Nagato?


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## Nikushimi (Sep 30, 2013)

Elia said:


> how do you know that the izanami would work against Nagato?



I'm not sure I understand your question. Izanami works on everyone, provided it can be set up.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I've posted Nagato's genjutsu feats, as well as the fact he has mastered the very source of Genjutsu Jagger. Its not that Itachi's being underestimate, Nagato is.



Nagato is nowhere near as good at Genjutsu as Itachi is, though.

Nagato himself stated that it would have been Itachi's Genjutsu that Kabuto would rely on at a critical moment, not his own.



> What do you need to break Tsukuyomi? Uchiha blood and the Uchiha Dojutsu. Nagato has _both._



Skill is also a huge factor, and that's clearly Itachi's advantage.

Just because Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi with an inferior Sharingan doesn't necessarily mean Nagato can do it with the Rinnegan; Sauce's whole schtick is ass-pull power-ups based on his "Will of Hatred," which is something unique to him.

It's also apparent that he relied on the Juin to get the job done, so again, it's tough to draw an accurate comparison between him and Nagato.

I have to agree though that I don't think Tsukuyomi by itself could take Nagato out of the fight.


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## Trojan (Sep 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm not sure I understand your question. Izanami works on everyone, provided it can be set up.



If someone deny the reality, or trying to be someone else other than himself, that Izanami would
work against them. And that's how it works.

Nagato does not try to be someone else other than himself. Therefore, the Izanami won't work
against him.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 30, 2013)

Elia said:


> If someone deny the reality, or trying to be someone else other than himself, that Izanami would
> work against them. And that's how it works.
> 
> Nagato does not try to be someone else other than himself. Therefore, the Izanami won't work
> against him.



I don't think that means Izanami won't affect him, though. It just means he can get out of it.


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## Jagger (Sep 30, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I've posted Nagato's genjutsu feats, as well as the fact he has mastered the very source of Genjutsu Jagger. Its not that Itachi's being underestimate, Nagato is.


That doesn't mean Nagato's skills with genjutsu are as good as Itachi's, SSM. Even Shikamaru's father explained the possibility of Itachi having a long-range genjutsu bypassing even the sensor's defense. It doesn't necessarily means Itachi had it, but that his reputation with the Sharingan strives towards such kind of speculation. Itachi's feats with genjutsu are better than Nagato's. Again, I'm not saying Nagato wins.



> Madara had the Rinnegan briefly before giving it away to Nagato, he never mastered it. Nagato however has, given he can perform Gedo Rinnei Tensei (only those who mastered the Rinnegan are able to perform that) and has shown all of the Rinnegan abilities. Nagato became the Sandaime Rikudo, which means he has _both_ Senju and Uchiha genetic material in him and he could control it.


Madara never mastered it, that's true. But his jutsus can be used on a higher scale than Nagato's because he's the original user and his body posesses Hashirama's DNA (Hashi had monstrous amounts of physical energy even for a Senju) and his own DNA that is far better than the average Uchiha. Again, most of what you're saying is speculation based on portrayal.



> What do you need to break Tsukuyomi? Uchiha blood and the Uchiha Dojutsu. Nagato has _both._


Nagato have Madara's eyes, but that doesn't mean Madara's extremely high spiritual energy is now embedded inside Nagato's DNA. 

But I wouldn't be surprised if Nagato could break out of it. But imagine such high level of genjutsu's resistance, Nagato is OP. 

OT: Nagato overwhelms Itachi through the sheer use of summons, Shinra Tensei, Asura Path and Human Path.


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## Ersa (Oct 1, 2013)

Nagato wins.

He's simply too versatile for Itachi to handle, Asura Path missiles and summon armada will force Itachi on the defensive early. He also has Preta and ST for defense, CST and CT to nuke and Bansho Tenin will pose a problem if Itachi doesn't have access to Totsuka. Granted, with clever use of clones, mass Amaterasu spam and Susanoo to weather Nagato's smaller nukes, Itachi still poses a problem to Nagato and Tsukiyomi could be nasty depending on Rinnegan vs MS and Nagato's genjutsu prowess. I'd say these two are on the same tier but Nagato could be definitely near the top, the fact that Izanami and Totsuka are no-go's is a big disadvantage for Itachi as well.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 1, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Nagato was an Uzumaki who just had the Rinnegan eyes implanted in him. There is no Uchiha blood in his body, unless you think he had some transplanted inside him off-panel or the eyes magically gave him a fresh pack of Uchiha blood.



A Rikudou is someone who has Uchiha and Senju DNA.

Apparently Nagato was classed in that category alongside the Hagoromo (who also didn't have Uchiha blood like Uchiha do)  and Madara; you can add Obito here for obvious reasons.

We can say Nagato was an Uzumaki/Senju- but someone who actually used Nagato for his power called him a Rikudou. The moment he obtained the Rinnegan, he was no longer a Senju/Uzumaki. Just like Madara was no longer a mere Uchiha when he mastered Hashirama's power and obtained the Rinnegan.

In relation to the topic on hand (as it is linked with Tsukuyomi), it comes down to whether or not you think eyes superior to the Sharingan and genetics superior to Uchiha genetics would be more than enough to take Tsukuyomi.
The logical inference would be: yes.


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## Hossaim (Oct 1, 2013)

Edo Nagato has little answer to tsukyomi, and little to break past Susanno.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm not sure I understand your question. Izanami works on everyone, provided it can be set up.



The condition was denying reality in some manner. Kabuto believed he was Orochimaru, he didn't accept his limits (in a similar vein to how Izanagi users don't accept said limits). That is the requirement of Izanami working... how will it work on Nagato?

You could say Itachi can choose the condition, but we know that isn't the case. Otherwise it wouldn't be a Kinjutsu; Izanami was a Kinjutsu because people who accept the reality they deny can get out of it.


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## The World (Oct 1, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> It's proven that Edo are "useless" regenerating when they are badly hit. Itachi needed Sasuke to protect himself from Kabuto after he was cut in half, the third Raikage was helpless in the floor when he was hit by FRS.
> 
> Since Edo Tensei gives Itachi a bigger advantage to what would give Nagato. Shinra Tensei is still harder to avoid and predict than Susano'o and Totsuka. The chances of Itachi being hit by a powerful Shinra Tensei that leaves him regenerating on the floor are bigger to Itachi stabbing one of the best sensors in the manga with Totsuka.
> 
> ...



3rd Raikage tanked the FRS


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## Jagger (Oct 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Edo Nagato has little answer to tsukyomi, and little to break past Susanno.


Someone forgot about Chibaku Tensei.


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## Laozy (Oct 1, 2013)

Nagato fodderizes Itachi..

Shinra Tensei that blew an entire village to shreds. Don't tell me Itachi's Susano'o can withstand a blow that was *easily* strong enough to grind steel and stone to near-dust, then throw a couple million tonnes of matter a good twenty miles into the air..


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## Sadgoob (Oct 1, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The condition was denying reality in some manner.



The condition is decided by the user. Hence it being said that Kabuto's destiny was Itachi's to decide. Izanami denies its victim free will, just like Kotoamatsukami, albeit in a natural process. 

In the case against Kabuto, the snake sage was forced to sit in a genjutsu until he fully accepted the condition set by Itachi, which was Kabuto giving up on his shared dream with Orochimaru.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 1, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The condition is decided by the user. Hence it being said that Kabuto's destiny was Itachi's to decide. Izanami denies its victim free will, just like Kotoamatsukami, albeit in a natural process.
> 
> In the case against Kabuto, the snake sage was forced to sit in a genjutsu until he fully accepted the condition set by Itachi, which was Kabuto giving up on his shared dream with Orochimaru.​



There is no page that says the user decides the condition. Izanami decides destiny, Itachi expanded later saying it was denying reality in some manner. Izanami doesn't deny free will, that's why it is forbidden: the victims are free to see the error of their ways to break free.

Kotoamatsumaki and Izanami aren't remotely comparable. One outwardly denies free will (Koto), whilst the main point of the other (Izanami) is that free will is the way out.

Kabuto was trapped because he believed he was something he wasn't (perfect and almighty). Itachi didn't set the condition; Itachi explained via the Izanagi story that Izanami is a jutsu that traps you till you stop lying to yourself.


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## The World (Oct 2, 2013)

Izanami would be the most broken jutsu next to Creation of all things if the user could set the conditions of release


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## Sadgoob (Oct 2, 2013)

The World said:


> Izanami would be the most broken jutsu next to Creation of all things if the user could set the conditions of release



Izanagi is also broken and its counterpart. The two jutsu are jointly referred to as *the ultimate dōjutsu*. Both techniques are broken, because both require an enormous price for using them just once.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There is no page that says the user decides the condition.



It's not ambiguous. At all. Itachi controls the condition.
​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kotoamatsumaki and Izanami aren't remotely comparable. One outwardly denies free will (Koto), whilst the main point of the other (Izanami) is that free will is the way out.



What part of forcing Kabuto to stay in an infinite loop of events, potentially forever, until he wholeheartedly surrenders to Itachi's will sounds like free will to you, Munboy? I'm curious. Please elaborate.​


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## IchLiebe (Oct 2, 2013)

Strategoob is just cherry picking and blatently ignoring parts of the manga


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## Garcher (Oct 2, 2013)

even with this handicap Itachi wins. Like Kabuto said, he's just too slow and immobile to keep up with ITACHI


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## Sadgoob (Oct 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Strategoob is just cherry picking and blatently ignoring parts of the manga



I'm cherry picking information that blatantly supports what I said, because that's how debates work... it's not my job to support your incorrect opinion or ignore contrary information.

If you and Munboy want to pretend that "your destiny is in my hands," "the techinque that decides destiny," etc. somehow mean that the user of Izanami has no say on the condition, then okay.

But IchLiebe.

No matter how many negs you give me...

I will love you forever.​


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## Rocky (Oct 2, 2013)

I don't remember you answer, so I'm going to ask again. 

Why was Itachi so weary on using Izanami in battle based off the fact that it had an escape method if he'd just be able to kill them while they were trapped anyway?


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## Katou (Oct 2, 2013)

Edo Nagato owns  .. if he had the time to preta the susano. . he would have done it. . but since he's hands were full. . he got killed  . .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It's not ambiguous. At all. Itachi controls the condition.
> ​
> 
> What part of forcing Kabuto to stay in an infinite loop of events, potentially forever, until he wholeheartedly surrenders to Itachi's will sounds like free will to you, Munboy? I'm curious. Please elaborate.​



Refer to the entire chapter Itachi explains Izanami's workings. The _whole_ explanation makes things clearer than the _one_ panel you assume passes as evidence.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The condition was denying reality in some manner.



Actually, Itachi stated the loop would keep going as long as the victim attempted to change their fate with Jutsu, e.g. Izanagi.



> Kabuto believed he was Orochimaru, he didn't accept his limits (in a similar vein to how Izanagi users don't accept said limits).



In an abstract sense, yes, but what does that actually mean? He was using powers that weren't his own. He was trying to become complete by accumulating a wealth of other peoples' abilities. He was trying to change his destiny with Jutsu.



> That is the requirement of Izanami working... how will it work on Nagato?



The same way it works on everyone else. Making the huge assumption that Itachi manages to set up the Jutsu on Nagato, Nagato would then be put through the loop of recorded events. We haven't actually seen how the victim escapes yet, but it has something to do with the course of action they decide to take (or not take).



> You could say Itachi can choose the condition, but we know that isn't the case. Otherwise it wouldn't be a Kinjutsu; Izanami was a Kinjutsu because people who accept the reality they deny can get out of it.



But that's anybody; anybody can _escape_ the Jutsu. That doesn't mean it simply fails to work if you aren't a nutjob like Kabuto, though. There is still a predetermined fate the Jutsu establishes and the victim is forced through the loop endlessly until they accept it.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Why was Itachi so weary on using Izanami in battle based off the fact that it had an escape method if he'd just be able to kill them while they were trapped anyway?



Itachi didn't seem weary though. He said that a technique that can be countered is dangerous to use in battle, particularly Izanami, which he had to trade Susano'o and Amaterasu to use.

But if he has no other way to counter an enemy, then he definitely doesn't seem to have any qualms in using it.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 3, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Actually, Itachi stated the loop would keep going as long as the victim attempted to change their fate with Jutsu, e.g. Izanagi.



Changing their fate by denying reality, that was the point of it all. Izanagi users deny that it was their fate to die (via Izanagi) like Kabuto denied the fact he wasn't almighty.



> In an abstract sense, yes, but what does that actually mean? He was using powers that weren't his own. He was trying to become complete by accumulating a wealth of other peoples' abilities. He was trying to change his destiny with Jutsu.
> 
> The same way it works on everyone else. Making the huge assumption that Itachi manages to set up the Jutsu on Nagato, Nagato would then be put through the loop of recorded events. We haven't actually seen how the victim escapes yet, but it has something to do with the course of action they decide to take (or not take).



But Itachi clearly laid out the "deny reality" principle. Itachi told us how Izanagi users and Kabuto denied reality... How are we going to argue Nagato denies reality? 



> But that's anybody; anybody can _escape_ the Jutsu. That doesn't mean it simply fails to work if you aren't a nutjob like Kabuto, though. There is still a predetermined fate the Jutsu establishes and the victim is forced through the loop endlessly until they accept it.



Most people would deny reality akin to Kabuto, hence Izanami would work on them. Though it becomes tricky when you try to ask how characters like Nagato would fall for it too; there are no logical conditions to put them under.


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## Rocky (Oct 3, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He said that a technique that can be countered is dangerous to use in battle, particularly Izanami, which he had to trade Susano'o and Amaterasu to use[​



Ah but that wasn't his word choice.

He said "It can't be used in battle," which is far different than what you just wrote. He did use it against Kabuto, but he had assistance from a top-notch Shinobi, and Itachi was immortal.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He said "It can't be used in battle,"



He also said it was designed for battling Uchiha/Rikūdo.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 3, 2013)

Well i'm just going to go with what the manga has basically portrayed since the introduction of Nagato

Nagato is on another level


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## GKY (Oct 3, 2013)

Bashotenin + soulrip doesn't exist. Especially not against someone like Itachi, that's just silly. Still, Nagato wins mid difficulty. He's a horrible match up for Itachi and he's stronger than him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 3, 2013)

GKY said:


> Bashotenin + soulrip doesn't exist.



It is just Nagato using two jutsu he already has.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 3, 2013)

First of all

Genjustu is useless.
going off simultaneously.
"Because you cannot cast genjutsu on someone that uses the same eyes as you"
Well since the Rinnegan come from the sharingan technically according to Itachi he can't use genjutsu against Nagato.

And really the only thing to break Izanami is to accept destiny of which I think Nagato has done a good job doing throughout the manga and portrayal of his character of how he was destined to become God. So technically he already accepts his destiny.


going off simultaneously.

"I hold your destiny in my hands...*but you're the one who will decides how it will be*" :shock 

So going by the late great Itachi Uchiha's own words; Even under Izanami the opponent holds his own destiny.

Kabuto was only caught and kept because he believed that he couldn't lose and couldn't accept that he could. Nagato has never been arrogant or express his emotions that most normal shinobis do.


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## Jagger (Oct 3, 2013)

Pst. Just because someone have a special Dojutsu doesn't mean they're inmune to genjutsu in any way at all. Kishi has never showed us such thing, even Sasuke with his 3-tomoe Sharingan (his CS might or not had help him with this) was able to break Itachi's Tsukuyomi despite it's proyected from a superior "level" of the Sharingan.

It all comes down to skill. Going by such logic, any Jinchuuriki should dispell any genjutsu because they're capable of using the two partner method regardless of their relationship with the Bijuu.


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## GKY (Oct 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is just Nagato using two jutsu he already has.



But it's a myth propagated throughout the BD. Apparently Nagato can just BT + Soul rip everyone. Sure that would probably work on fodder, but and decent ninja would have a counter to that. Since Itachi is fighting in this case, he could amaterasu Nagato or use susano'o to block (and if he can activate it quick enough possibly Totsuka defenseless Nagato). Hell Nagato may get careless and find himself in Tsukuyomi, which I personally believe would heavily damage him. Naruto could counter with FRS (since he can apparently do it pretty quickly now) or use chakra arms. Kakashi would use Kamui at the last moment. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these measures would defeat Nagato, but they would certainly at least prevent this supposedly great (but never before seen) BT + Soulrip. Once again though, Itachi is seriously outmatched here (especially since he's restricted).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 3, 2013)

GKY said:


> But it's a myth propagated throughout the BD. Apparently Nagato can just BT + Soul rip everyone. Sure that would probably work on fodder, but and decent ninja would have a counter to that. Since Itachi is fighting in this case, he could amaterasu Nagato or use susano'o to block (and if he can activate it quick enough possibly Totsuka defenseless Nagato). Hell Nagato may get careless and find himself in Tsukuyomi, which I personally believe would heavily damage him. Naruto could counter with FRS (since he can apparently do it pretty quickly now) or use chakra arms. Kakashi would use Kamui at the last moment. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these measures would defeat Nagato, but they would certainly at least prevent this supposedly great (but never before seen) BT + Soulrip. Once again though, Itachi is seriously outmatched here (especially since he's restricted).



It is a myth that Nagato can use two jutsu he has... ? 

Amaterasu and Susanoo just get absorbed... what will they do? Also Tsukuyomi is helpless against Uchiha with the base Sharingan; what will it do to a Rikudou with the Rinnegan?

BT+Soul Rip tends to be a good argument as with Nagato can deflect just about anything the opponent tries (Preta for Ninjutsu, Demon Realm for projectiles). 

If using jutsu while getting BT was so easy, we'd have seen Kakashi and Naruto using some jutsu while being drawn in rather than use anything they could use _swiftly_. In fact Naruto and Sasuke were pretty helpless when Obito used BT and grabbed their heads.

Its still a good argument to use against Itachi.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 3, 2013)

But Madara who mastered the Sharingan to its fullest extent and perfected it into Rinnegan wasn't able to master rinnegan yet Nagato mastered Rinnegan fairly easily and quickly so would that given him greater ocular prowess than Madara Itachi and Sasuke because he mastered a more advanced form of Sharingan then any of those characters have yet to master.

And Itachi has the weakest sharingan prowess of the 3, seriously he got his 2 best techniques busted/broke by a 3 tomoe sharingan wielding shinobi.


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## GKY (Oct 4, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is a myth that Nagato can use two jutsu he has... ?
> 
> Amaterasu and Susanoo just get absorbed... what will they do? Also Tsukuyomi is helpless against Uchiha with the base Sharingan; what will it do to a Rikudou with the Rinnegan?
> 
> ...



Fights in this manga don't work that way and never will. Otherwise Nagato would have BT + soulripped all of his opponents, or at least 1 of them. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 4, 2013)

GKY said:


> Fights in this manga don't work that way and never will. Otherwise Nagato would have BT + soulripped all of his opponents, or at least 1 of them. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.



The only time we saw God Realm and Human Realm together was when the former lacked his powers. When we saw Edo Nagato he couldn't control his own body. There isn't concrete evidence to reject the Soul Rip+BT combo.


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## Baroxio (Oct 4, 2013)

Chibaku Tensei can be Amaterasu'd the moment it comes out. Itachi has full knowledge on the technique, and it was performed right int front of him. The moment Nagato attempts to do it Itachi will respond with Amaterasu, which bypasses durability.

Chou Shinra Tensei destroyed a village bud couldn't kill anyone who had 1/2000 of a Katsuya slug. By feats, Susano laughs at it.

Bansho Tenin can be countered by having Susano ground it's user, like Sasuke did against Danzo's Baku. Regular Shinra Tensei is the same.

Animal Realm summons can be loldodged, lolblinded and lolAmaterasu'd.

Asura Realm can't get through Susano period.

So all we have now is an old, decripit, unable to move Nagato with Preta Realm, Body modifications for defense. When Shinra Tensei is on cooldown (which Itachi can easily discover with his intelligence feats and ability to use clones) Itachi can just run up to him with Susano activated and cut his throat.

Edo Itachi's ability to spam clones and Magenkyou Techniques gives him the victory when combined with his near full knowledge on Nagato's abilities. Living Nagato would likely rape living Itachi, but infinite chakra is a great boon to a guy whose only real weakness in life was poor stamina.


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## Rocky (Oct 4, 2013)

Since when did Amaterasu bypass durability.

If that was the case, the Raikage would've felt pain when he punched right through it.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 4, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Chibaku Tensei can be Amaterasu'd the moment it comes out. Itachi has full knowledge on the technique, and it was performed right int front of him. The moment Nagato attempts to do it Itachi will respond with Amaterasu, which bypasses durability.



And what is _Amaterasu_ supposed do when it has been shown to be rather ineffective to inorganic material? For all we know the core can be a pure chakra construct as dense as the Bijudama used by KN6 (both are of similar size) 

This is assuming Nagato doesn't just launch Itachi into the horizon with a large _Shinra Tensei_... and then use CT when the former is simply out of range to attack the core



Baroxio said:


> Chou Shinra Tensei destroyed a village bud couldn't kill anyone who had 1/2000 of a Katsuya slug. By feats, Susano laughs at it.



Firstly... CST killed the vast majority of the population unless you think _Rinne Tensei_ was for show. Second Katsuyu is a squishy slug designed to eat blunt force attacks and survived the Orochimaru disintegrate KN4+ transformation

.... it also help that all the people who survived where several *kilometers* from ground zero not 20m which Itachi would be if Nagato decide to use it.



Baroxio said:


> Bansho Tenin can be countered by having Susano ground it's user, like Sasuke did against Danzo's Baku. Regular Shinra Tensei is the same.
> 
> Animal Realm summons can be loldodged, lolblinded and lolAmaterasu'd.



Becuase Nagato can't take Itachi out with one _Bansho Ten'in_ and keep _Sasuno'o_ planted with another _Bansho Tenin_. Or simply use the force of _Laser Explosion_ to take Itachi out

A regular _Shinra Tensei_ sent 3 boss sized Toads multiple km's outside of Konoha's borders.. from the center of the village. _Sasuno'o_ is treated like a car in F3 tornado and sent to the next Naruto county

Because Itachi can conically use Amaterasu & Sasuno'o in conjunction and even if he could how is he supposed to attack/defend against 8 summons coming from 8 different angles at once not even factoring Nagato summing Gedo Mazo so that can nuke him with _Kirin_ level lighting



Baroxio said:


> Asura Realm can't get through Susano period.



And you know this how? 

Becuase last time I checked Yata's Mirror only protects one side.... and Laser Explosion is magnitudes more powerful than an Ei's Onoki enhanced punching strength or a Baku enhanced _Fuuton_ both of which busted Lv3 _Sasuno'o_ from stronger _Sasuno'o_ users... with ease



Baroxio said:


> So all we have now is an old, decripit, unable to move Nagato with Preta Realm, Body modifications for defense. When Shinra Tensei is on cooldown (which Itachi can easily discover with his intelligence feats and ability to use clones) Itachi can just run up to him with Susano activated and cut his throat.



Becuase _Sasuno'o_ will work on _Fujutsu Kuyin_ Itachi is going to IC charge with Gedo Mazo looming above him? 



Baroxio said:


> Edo Itachi's ability to spam clones and Magenkyou Techniques gives him the victory when combined with his near full knowledge on Nagato's abilities. Living Nagato would likely rape living Itachi, but infinite chakra is a great boon to a guy whose only real weakness in life was poor stamina.



Or Nagato just wipes him off the planet with CST or CT, or both if he wants to be a dick head that day


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## Rain (Oct 4, 2013)

Itachi wins this.

1. Totsuka works, 
2. Tsukuyomi works,
3. Itachi can counter all of Nagato's jutsu,
4. Itachi is smarter fighter than Nagato.


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## Jagger (Oct 4, 2013)

1. Yes, it does. The problem is that it needs to stab the enemy to work, something it will be pretty damn here.

2. Tsukuyomi has only  been shown to work in a close-range distance. In other words, Itachi needs to get close to someone capable of pushing him away several meters without ffort and keeping him at bay with his summons, multiple missiles, lasers, he just have too many alternatives for that.

3. No, he can't.

4. So your argument alone is based solely on that he's smarter than Nagato? That's actually pretty cool if it wasn't of the fact intelligence alone is not enough. Shikamaru is an example of that.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Since when did Amaterasu bypass durability.
> 
> If that was the case, the Raikage would've felt pain when he punched right through it.



Amaterasu ≠ Enton



The initial summoning of black fire can have singificant burst strength.

Yet those reiticent flames, regardless of shape manipulation, do not..


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## Rocky (Oct 4, 2013)

I don't see how burning through the toad stomach puts Amaterasu above combined techniques of Rasenshuriken, Bijuudama, and Itachi's strongest raged attack, Magatama.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 4, 2013)

Baroxio never said it would burn through Chibaku Tensei once it got rolling with several incredibly compacted layers of earth, but when it was tiny little unprotected sphere being formed in Nagato's palms. 

And unlike what we know of the sphere, that toad stomach that Itachi's best Amaterasu feat blasted through was incredibly fire resistant, because that particular toad breathed fire or whatever.​


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## Joakim3 (Oct 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Baroxio never said it would burn through Chibaku Tensei once it got rolling with several incredibly compacted layers of earth, but when it was tiny little unprotected sphere being formed in Nagato's palms.



It's like saying _Amaterasu_ can burn through KN6's _Bijduama_ or FRS because they are also a "tiny little unprotected spheres" of chakra.

We have no idea how much chakra exactly is inside of it, but based on how much stress it put on a weakened Nagato and the fact it has to gravitationally hold mountain ranges together means there is a truly idiotic amount inside that "tiny little sphere" 



Strategoob said:


> And unlike what we know of the sphere, that toad stomach that Itachi's best Amaterasu feat blasted through was incredibly fire resistant, because that particular toad breathed fire or whatever. [/indent]



Again burning through organic fire resistant material is a lot different than burning an ungodly dense compacted sphere of chakra


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## Rocky (Oct 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Baroxio never said it would burn through Chibaku Tensei once it got rolling with several incredibly compacted layers of earth, but when it was tiny little unprotected sphere being formed in Nagato's palms.​



The rocks weren't responsible for Chibaku Tensei's durability; that definitely wasn't implied. 

I'll use the scan of when everyone was charging up their attacks for reference, as we have something to scale the rocks to. Look at the trees. Based on the size of the trees, there were barley any rocks on Chibaku Tensei. Bijuudama is a Mountain-Buster, and Rasenshuriken isn't far behind it. Those rocks did not halt the destructiveness of Bijuudama & Rasenshurken, nor did they slow down the penetrative force of Itachi's 3-Tome Magatama. That black sphere is what's hard to blow up.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The rocks weren't responsible for Chibaku Tensei's durability; that definitely wasn't implied.



It was when the KN6 bijūdama didn't reach the core or do much to the compacted rocks. Besides, Itachi telling them all to use their attacks doesn't mean that they _had_ to do so to destroy the core.

It simply maximized the likelihood of doing so. Itachi has no idea how durable the object was and we don't know if ithe unprotected core could tank a shuriken, let alone Amaterasu.​


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## Rocky (Oct 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It was when the KN6 bijūdama didn't reach the core or do much to the compacted rocks.



Rokubi Naruto fired a small, uncompressed Bijuudama that barley created an explosion its own size. I also don't get the implication in general, as Bijuudama from KN6 wasn't portrayed above the combination of the trio.

Bee's Bijuudama take out mountains, and then you have Itachi's & KCM Naruto's most powerful attacks stacked on.



> Besides, Itachi telling them all to use their attacks doesn't mean that they _had_ to do so to destroy the core. It simply maximized the likelihood of doing so. Itachi has no idea how durable the object was and we don't know if ithe unprotected core could tank a shuriken, let alone Amaterasu.



This is that "what if" way of looking at the Manga. I get that, but if i went up to Kishimoto and asked if Itachi, 7% KCM Naruto, or Bee could destroy Chibaku Tensei by themselves, I doubt he would say yes.


Also, Nagato - who has knowledge himself - would just use Chibaku Tensei from cover or after a distraction so it had time to gather rocks if he felt that extra cushion was necessary.


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## Rain (Oct 5, 2013)

Jagger said:


> 1. Yes, it does. The problem is that it needs to stab the enemy to work, something it will be pretty damn here.



I don't see how, tbh. The range is exceptional as well as slash radius. And on top of that, Itachi's Susano'o is moving much faster than Nagato.



> 2. Tsukuyomi has only  been shown to work in a close-range distance. In other words, Itachi needs to get close to someone capable of pushing him away several meters without ffort and keeping him at bay with his summons, multiple missiles, lasers, he just have too many alternatives for that.



All it was said about requirements for Tsukuyomi is that the victim must look Itachi into the eyes. 



> 3. No, he can't.



1. CT - Itachi destroys black sphere as soon as it launches.
2. CST - Seeing how Susano'o in its 3rd stage protected Itachi from Kirin, more penetrative attack than CST, i think its reasonable to assume that Final Susano'o with Yata Mirror can at least protect Itachi from it, if not outright tank it.
3. BT - Can't pull Itachi from Susano'o, he will just hit its armor.

4. 





> So your argument alone is based solely on that he's smarter than Nagato? That's actually pretty cool if it wasn't of the fact intelligence alone is not enough. Shikamaru is an example of that.



Of course that's not my sole argument, where did you get that from? 

Intelligence is a huge bonus in a fight, but only if you actually have the tools to beat your enemy, as is the case here.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 5, 2013)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Location  5 Kage vs Madara
> Restrictions Izanami, Tozuka Sword
> 
> Assume both of them have sealing tags



No point in even restricting Itachi.
We already saw this fight, and if Naruto + 8 tails wasn't there, then edo itachi would be trapped inside a rock forever.  GG


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## Sadgoob (Oct 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Rokubi Naruto fired a small, uncompressed Bijuudama that barley



Looked exactly the same as the one Gyūki used on Chibaku Tensei.



Rocky said:


> if i went up to Kishimoto and asked if Itachi, KCM Naruto, or Bee could destroy Chibaku Tensei by themselves, I doubt he would say yes.



If you asked Kishimoto if Itachi would beat Nagato, he'd slap you and say "duh."


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## Jagger (Oct 6, 2013)

Rain said:


> I don't see how, tbh. The range is exceptional as well as slash radius. And on top of that, Itachi's Susano'o is moving much faster than Nagato.


Yeah, because Nagato is crippled, but that doesn't change much when Nagato's moveset allows him to attack opponents in a long-range sucession. Rockets, lasers, etc. In fact, what is stopping Nagato from using the propulsors that Asura Path used during the ambush on Konoha?




> All it was said about requirements for Tsukuyomi is that the victim must look Itachi into the eyes.


From a fair amount of distance, it doesn't really work. Even when the Databook states it's short-range. Try again.



> 1. CT - Itachi destroys black sphere as soon as it launches.
> 2. CST - Seeing how Susano'o in its 3rd stage protected Itachi from Kirin, more penetrative attack than CST, i think its reasonable to assume that Final Susano'o with Yata Mirror can at least protect Itachi from it, if not outright tank it.
> 3. BT - Can't pull Itachi from Susano'o, he will just hit its armor.


1. How is that even possible to begin with? Through the use of kunais? 

2. If you're implying Kirin have more firepower than Chou Shinra Tensei, then, you're wrong. Yes, it does have more piercing more, but it doesn't make it more powerful than Pain's attack, it's just different purposes and way to kill the enemy at the end of the day. If Kirin had the same amount of power that Pain put in his attack when he nuked Konoha, I'd bet it would have destroyed Itachi's Susano'O.

3. I see no reason why it shouldn't.



> 4.
> 
> Of course that's not my sole argument, where did you get that from?
> 
> Intelligence is a huge bonus in a fight, but only if you actually have the tools to beat your enemy, as is the case here.


Itachi loses. It's as simple as that.



Strategoob said:


> If you asked Kishimoto if Itachi would beat Nagato, he'd slap you and say "duh."


No, he wouldn't. He would just simply make a speech repeating himself over and over about how Naruto's feelings can surppass everything and how much of a good Hokage candidate he is.

Oh, and how fodders shouldn't die despite being in a war.


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## Rain (Oct 6, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Yeah, because Nagato is crippled, but that doesn't change much when Nagato's moveset allows him to attack opponents in a long-range sucession. Rockets, lasers, etc. In fact, what is stopping Nagato from using the propulsors that Asura Path used during the ambush on Konoha?



Are you saying Asura Path lasers can harm Itachi through Yata Mirro/Susano'o. Hell he can probably dodge it completely.





> From a fair amount of distance, it doesn't really work. Even when the Databook states it's short-range. Try again.



Databook also states Amaterasu is short-range, yet Itachi used it from ~20-30 meters distance on Cerberus.




> 1. How is that even possible to begin with? Through the use of kunais?



Amaterasu, Yasaka No Magatama, Totsuka No Tsurugi.



> 2. If you're implying Kirin have more firepower than Chou Shinra Tensei, then, you're wrong. Yes, it does have more piercing more, but it doesn't make it more powerful than Pain's attack, it's just different purposes and way to kill the enemy at the end of the day. If Kirin had the same amount of power that Pain put in his attack when he nuked Konoha, I'd bet it would have destroyed Itachi's Susano'O.



That's not what i'm implying. What i'm saying is against something as solid as Susano'o, piercing power is far more useful than pushing power. It will only push Susano'o away. And that's not even counting Yata Mirror, which can probably deflect it completely.



> 3. I see no reason why it shouldn't.



Nagato hasn't shown ability to use 2 Bansho Ten'in in the same direction simultaneously. 

Also level 4 and higher versions of Susano'o keep the user anchored to the ground, as seen in the Sasuke vs Danzo fight.




> Itachi loses. It's as simple as that.



Itachi never loses.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Looked exactly the same as the one Gyūki used on Chibaku Tensei.
> 
> 
> 
> If you asked Kishimoto if Itachi would beat Nagato, he'd slap you and say "duh."


Itachi wanker...
Nothing to see here folks.



johnsuwey said:


> No point in even restricting Itachi.
> We already saw this fight, and if Naruto + 8 tails wasn't there, then edo itachi would be trapped inside a rock forever.  GG


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## Joakim3 (Oct 6, 2013)

Just cuz I'm in a nice mood Jagger 



Rain said:


> Are you saying Asura Path lasers can harm Itachi through Yata Mirro/Susano'o. Hell he can probably dodge it completely.



When Ei's weight enhanced punch casually went through Madara's V3 and a Baku enhance Fuuton went through Sasuke's V3 Sasuno'o something _Laser Explosion_ is *substantially* powerful than, then yes.... any _Sasuno'o_ lv3 and under is getting utterly wrecked. Even if you factor Yata's Mirror..... Nagato can always just force a summon or two to force Itachi to defend and just nuke from _Sasuno'o's_ rear 

No......  Itachi is never dodging _Laser Explosion_ when it's AoE is on the order of a couple hundread meters... and thats Shurado's let alone one used through Nagato



Rain said:


> Databook also states Amaterasu is short-range, yet Itachi used it from ~20-30 meters distance on Cerberus.



In the grand scheme of things and the scale at which Nagato can use his techs.... 20-30m is short ranged when your opponent can attack from km's away with impunity 



Rain said:


> Amaterasu, Yasaka No Magatama, Totsuka No Tsurugi.



_Amatearsu_ & _Yasaka Magatama_ do what to a insanely dense mass of chakra?

Nagato uses CT while levitating..... GG Totsuka



Rain said:


> That's not what i'm implying. What i'm saying is against something as solid as Susano'o, piercing power is far more useful than pushing power. It will only push Susano'o away. And that's not even counting Yata Mirror, which can probably deflect it completely.



Actually thats not true for 2 reasons.....

1. Being completely solid sucks against blunt force attacks.... which is why Katsuya can survive CST aftereffects and ninja couldn't

2. _Shinra Tensei_ is not a normal push in a sense, it's more akin to being hit by a moving wall... as there is a definitive "edge" or "cutoff" where the gravity affects objects and doesn't.....  You can clearly see the spheres edge in its very first debut against Kakashi



Rain said:


> Nagato hasn't shown ability to use 2 Bansho Ten'in in the same direction simultaneously.



He used it on Naruto & a hundred ton boulder in two opposite directions.... yet he can't do a less complex task of using two in the same general location 



Rain said:


> Also level 4 and higher versions of Susano'o keep the user anchored to the ground, as seen in the Sasuke vs Danzo fight.



Which makes things easier for Nagato?..... Baku was sucking in the entire _Sasuon'o_, Nagato is targeting Itachi himself which means Sasuno'o's own anchoring is going to act as the opposing force for _Bansho Tenin_ to help Nagato pluck Itachi out



Rain said:


> Itachi never loses.



Sure... when the plot can't move forward unless he _has_ to win.... seeing there's no plot in Battledome, Itachi gets steamrolled like fodder


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Amaterasu ≠ Enton
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amaterasu _is_ Enton. Enton is just what the users who are more talented with Amaterasu can use.

Also you'll find that any time Sasuke/Itachi retain their focus on their opponent then they use Amaterasu, the target they're focusing on completely incinerates.


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