# Shinobi You Feel Are Overrated/Underrated On The Forums



## Eliyua23 (Oct 15, 2013)

Which Shinobi Are NF Underrating/Overrating


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2013)

Itachi's easily the most underrated. Hashirama acknowledged that Itachi would shame him as a shinobi, and yet people act like squibs like BM Minato would make Itachi break a sweat.

The only reason Itachi would sweat against Minato is if Itachi planned it that way from the start. And don't get me started on people that think base BASE Minato could make Itachi sweat.

Get outta' here.​


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## RBL (Oct 15, 2013)

Tsunade is overrated.
Rock Lee is underrated
Danzo is Underrated
Neji is underrated
Gaara is overrated
Oonoki is overrated
Orochimaru is underrated

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Oct 15, 2013)

Minato is underrated. People have him losing more often then he should.


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## RBL (Oct 15, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> Minato is underrated. People have him losing more often then he should.



it used to be overrated as shit, until he used the KCM.

now he is just neutral.


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## Octavian (Oct 15, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi's easily the most underrated. Hashirama acknowledged that Itachi would shame him as a shinobi, and yet people act like squibs like BM Minato would make Itachi break a sweat.
> 
> The only reason Itachi would sweat against Minato is if Itachi planned it that way from the start. And don't get me started on people that think base BASE Minato could make Itachi sweat.
> 
> Get outta' here.​


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## Luftwaffles (Oct 15, 2013)

Kakashi is easily the most underrated


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## ueharakk (Oct 15, 2013)

- Itachi (like usual)
- Ei's speed (or maybe just speed in general)
- Minato 

There are other characters that are massively overrated by singular members, but I don't think that one person overrating them = a representation of the forums.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2013)

People seem to go pretty far out of their way to underrate Onoki, Mu, Danzo, Konan, Tsunade, and Troll-Kages abilities. As for overrated characters; Deidara, Itachi Raikages,  Kisame, are the biggest ones.


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## Bonly (Oct 15, 2013)

Mu sticks out as underrated to me. Can't think of any other underrated characters but there are many overrated characters. 95 percent of them seem a bit obvious so no need to need to list them really.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 15, 2013)

Most overrated : 

Edo Itachi, 

I mean other than withholding Susanoo longer, which seems to be Retconned somehow by Kishi as after the Kages Arc we really haven't really heard much about Susanoo's drawbacks , Itachi in his Edo form still has the same MS techniques really didn't show new overwhelming ninjutsu, his base form got no improvements, in both of his battles he got by on ninja tactics and getting help by Sasuke, Naruto, Bee , people put him drastically on another level  like he can contend with the likes of EMS Sasuke, Naruto, Minato as a solo act when he can't.


Tobirama,

His FTG jutsu is weaker than Minato as stated by himself, he also has to get in close CQC in order for it to properly work that's not practical against much of the upper tiers, he hasn't really shown enough jutsu outside of FTG that would be hax enough to compete with the likes of Minato, BM Naruto, Madara but NF consistently puts him above Minato and I just don't get it.


Deidara,Kisame they have been Overrated for yrs and continue to do so 

Kakashi can also be overrated at times


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## Luftwaffles (Oct 15, 2013)

Minato is overrated.


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## Jagger (Oct 15, 2013)

Overrated:

Itachi, Minato, Katsuyu, Obito, Tobirama and others.

Underrated:

Mu, Onoki, A, Nagato, Kisame, etc.


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## Veracity (Oct 15, 2013)

Itachi is easily the most overrated. People think Opponents will just walk into his Genjustu and that he just spams Amaterasu at everything that moves. His Yata mirror that has literally one feat is wanked to hell. 

I would also say Minato. But in reality his abilities are OP as fuck. He kinda sorta deserves wank with the abilities Kishi gave him.

Tsunade is overrated and underrated, but mostly underrated. I've heard people say that without regen she's chunnin level and that she isn't worthy of her title as Hokage or Sannin.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm surprised at some opinions on Hashirama's abilities.  It seems like people have been arguing every top tier destroys him since he got a fight, from Minato ultra spamming bijuudama at him, to Preta eating his entire forest, and most arguments center around his Bhudda, to the omission of all the other varied and strong abilities he has.  

I'm also surprised anyone takes the ninetails seriously after this panel.



He's not a ninja.   I'm just surprised anyone cares to argue for him.

I'm not saying either are over-rated or under-rated, but I find their discussions centered around them odd.


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## Owl (Oct 15, 2013)

Tenten is severely underrated.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 15, 2013)

Underrated: 

Orochimaru,

This guy hasn't been shown to be able to be effectively killed, people mistake him failing on a gamble with the body transfer technique with getting trolled by the Sharingan, Itachi never beat Full powered healthy Orochimaru in combat, as we see not even Susanoo didn't kill him , and in actuality Itachi needed his strongest technique at the cost of his life just to defeat a sick armless Orochimaru , In pt 1 he was strong enough to contend with most of if not any character in the manga , people think Hebi Sasuke >Orochimaru 


All Kunoichi are overrated 

Konan, Kushina, Sakura, Tsunade are high Kage level shinobi yet are consistently downgraded


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## Nikushimi (Oct 15, 2013)

Overrated by NBDers: Oonoki, Gaara, Muu, Kabuto, Obito (pre-Rinnegan), Minato (alive), Kyuubi.

Underrated by NBDers: Deidara, Sasori, Chiyo, 4th Raikage.


Sasori>Deidara>Muu>Oonoki>Gaara, fyi.


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## Rocky (Oct 15, 2013)

Katsuyu, any Jinton user, Kakashi, Itachi & Minato at times, and Hashirama.

Yes Hashirama. People think he stomps "Naruto & Sauce low diff,"  and has a chance against Jubito, which is stupid.

Raikage are severely underrated. They stand out to me.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Oct 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yes Hashirama. People think he stomps "Naruto & Sauce low diff,"  and has a chance against Jubito, which is stupid.



Agree with this. Lol at people saying he could take on Juubito.


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## Hossaim (Oct 15, 2013)

Tsunade is the most overrated character on this forum by a mile.

People overestimate alive Minato a lot too.

People really underestimate Madara too, his Perfect Susanoo has retarded tanking ability.

People who claim BM Naruto > Edo Madara are just :lol


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## Trojan (Oct 15, 2013)

Overrated. 

1- Itachi. 

In reality, he is below Jman alone, and stronger than part 1 Oro. So, kishi made him at a sannin level.
in the forums, you see people think he defeat all the sannin at the same time, or making him at the same
level as Hokage's level like Tobirama, Hiruzen and Minato. 

some think he's stronger than Pain ...etc. 

2- Hashirama. 

people think this guy can solo the whole universe by himself, while in the manga he got killed in a war. 
they think he can defeat all the Akatsuki by himself with med difficult. Or defeat all the Edos by himself
which has the Akatsuki, the Kages, the jins, and the KKG users...etc. 

they think he is the strongest Hokage, while in the manga not a single time was he called the strongest
out of them. I even saw some people think he's stronger than the Sage or the Tree. lol 

3- BM Naruto, when people thought he can fodderize the whole alliance, or all the Akatsuki at the same time.

4- Shishi, he's featless and his Koto seemed not enough to overwhelm Danzo or Ao, yet people think
he can defeat every single character in the universe.   

5- Rinngan Obito, he's almost the same like MS obito he does not use the Rinngan's ability yet people make
him a lot stronger!

----
Underrated. 

1- Hiruzen.

in the manga he's the strongest Hokage, the professor who know and can use every jutsu in konoha
a genius, who has 5 in every category except those who are affected by age. He was called the strongest
out of the Gokage! Yet, in forum he's fodder!  

2 -Jman.

in reality, he is the guy who said to be stronger than itachi + Kisame at the same time. The same guy whom
pain stated if he hadn't kept his secret, he wouldn't have won. The Guy whom Obito said he deserve his repetition. The one who Minato thought he's the best he knows. The teacher for Nagato, Minato and Naruto.
the Guy who one shotted Konan. The Guy who helped to finish the second War. 

yet people ranked him so low that's not even funny. lol 

the Sannin and their teacher are TOO underrated. 

3- Minato depending on the case. Some times he's overrated, some time he's underrated. 
for example. Some people think he can't win against Sasori or Kisame or even Gaara. lol
and other put him on the same tier with itachi and Tobirama. lol 

of course I'm talking about Base Minato their. 

I think the Gokage are unerrated as well. They made madara use his full power, and he even admitted that
they are strong. And people also deny that madara would have lost half of his body if he was not an edo. 

I think there are some more, but they are not in top of my head now.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 15, 2013)

Overrated - Deidara, Ei, Gaara, Itachi, Juubito, Kakashi, Minato, Naruto and Tsunade

Underrated - Danzou, Kakuzu, Nidaime Mizukage, Orochimaru, Sasori and Tsuchikage Duo


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 15, 2013)

Most overrated

Itachi. Retarded, unfunny totsuka blade jokes, his genjutsu turning madara and obito to vegetables, his made up "healthy" form having fluctuating stats.

Tobirama. His water laser can slice through morning peacock, he can use shadow clones, tag them and have them make tags before his opponent try to stop him apparently. People try to give him alot of moves he has not show(Space time barrier, multiple shadow clones technique).

Underrated. 

Sasuke. Enton is a ignored one hit kill for the most point. Also not one person  is running around fighting covered in amaterasu.

Tsunade. No one should be talking about outlasting this woman unless your a jin or comparable to one.Yet i have seen certain characters stated to outlast her. Her hits are near one hit kills so people just try to say she is slow to get around that. It is quite annoying but hey.

There are so many more i could have listed for both categories.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 15, 2013)

Since when did the term "overrated" become "I'm butthurt because someone said my favorite character loses to [Insert "Overrated" Character Here]"?

Because that's pretty much all I'm getting.


For underrated, definitely the Tsuchikages.


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## Kyu (Oct 16, 2013)

Overrated: Tsunade, Onoki, Mu, Hashirama & BM Minato to an extent.


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## Kai (Oct 16, 2013)

Overrated: Katsuyu for the past week, like no other. Hopefully it'll straighten out over time. Sage Mode Naruto, Bijuu Mode Minato.

Underrated: Sasuke, Gokage, Hanzo


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## RBL (Oct 16, 2013)

Kai said:


> Overrated: Katsuyu for the past week, like no other. Hopefully it'll straighten out over time. Sage Mode Naruto, Bijuu Mode Minato.
> 
> Underrated: Sasuke, Gokage, Hanzo



gokage underrated?

lol

they are all shit, they clearly deserve to be underrated.


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## Ersa (Oct 16, 2013)

Overrated are sick Itachi & Minato at times, Raikages, Sannin (wank overload ), Gokage wank is disgraceful.
Underrated are Hebi Sasuke, Deidara, Konan; Edo Itachi is severely underrated.


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## crisler (Oct 16, 2013)

Gai and Kakashi are very overrated as their fans believe they can solo anyone with their hidden cards when it's obviously not true. Nor were they portrayed as powerful as their fans believe.

Sasuke is underrated.

Sannin overrated especially Jiraiya.


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## ThunderCunt (Oct 16, 2013)

I am not sure about over rated but most wanked character by far is "Itachi" and so much so that people just called Totsuka blade greater than RS himself.
Even kishi would find opportunity to wank him in the manga. 
For last few months, I have not seen one week gone where someone had not made "What would have Itachi done"(or variants thereof). 
I like Itachi as much as anyone else but because he is a very well written ambiguous character and not because he solos. 

Again, people consider Jiraya very weak because he lost to pain, which I find very amusing.  People fail to take into account the current power scaling.


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## Enki (Oct 16, 2013)

By now the most overrated are Minato, Naruto (dat BSM wank and the blitz shit are disgusting, really) and Hashirama (shinobi no kami come at me).

Underrated Sasuke, Gokage and most of Akatsuki*


*The Itachi wank is dead now (people claim that even Pain Arc SM Naruto, Ei and Base Jiraiya can beat him now lol), but in past he was really overrated.


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## Skywalker (Oct 16, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Tsunade is the most overrated character on this forum by a mile.
> 
> People overestimate alive Minato a lot too.
> 
> ...


Madara? Underrated? 

No but seriously, Naruto, Minato, and Kakashi with his lolkamui, they're all pretty overrated.

Sannin are underrated.


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## Sans (Oct 16, 2013)

Kai said:


> Overrated: Katsuyu for the past week, like no other. Hopefully it'll straighten out over time. Sage Mode Naruto, Bijuu Mode Minato.
> 
> Underrated: Sasuke, Gokage, Hanzo



Wow, agreed almost entirely.

Itachi feels pretty hated on to me right now. Loses to most the Kage, Naruto from two hundred chapters ago, any individual Sannin, etc.


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## Naiad (Oct 16, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Tsunade. No one should be talking about outlasting this woman unless your a jin or comparable to one.Yet i have seen certain characters stated to outlast her. Her hits are near one hit kills so people just try to say she is slow to get around that. It is quite annoying but hey.



so well said. i fully agree


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 16, 2013)

Most overrated(ranked by the amount of false wankery) : 

1 - SM Naruto

2 - Minato

3 - Kabuto

4 - Sasuke

5 - Kakashi

6 - Onoki



Most underrated : 

1 - Itachi

2 - A

3 - Orochimaru

4 - Deidara


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## kaminogan (Oct 16, 2013)

at the top of my head,

itachi is over rated,

danzo is over rated,

gokage are under rated,

sasuke is under rated, (or is he neutral ?)

pre 100 % naruto is under rated,

and gai/lee are over rated, (albeit they haven't shown there full power)


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## Tarot (Oct 16, 2013)

Overrated:
-Prime Hiruzen
-Itachi
-Minato
-Kakashi and his lolkamui
-Tobirama
-Kakuzu gets overrated on other forums because of his Iron Skin
Underrated:
-The 5 kage


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## Arles Celes (Oct 16, 2013)

Overrated: Itachi, Minato, BM Naruto.

Underrated: Tsunade, Oonoki, Sasuke, and Sakura.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 16, 2013)

*Overrated*
Itachi
Jiraiya
Minato
Oonoki
Raikage(speed in general)
Deidara

*Underrated:*
Mu
Gaara
Orochimaru 
Kabuto 
Danzo


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 16, 2013)

Pretty much the line of Will of Fire character except Hashirama I think have been pretty overrated here from what I've seen. That means Tobirama, Minato, Jiraiya, Naruto, Tsunade, etc. 

Hashi is underrated here, which is surprising.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> *Underrated:*
> Mu
> Gaara
> Orochimaru
> ...



Muu, Gaara, and Kabuto are definitely not underrated; in fact, they are widely overrated. It's not uncommon to see people claim that Gaara in the desert can handle Itachi and Sasuke at the same time. People generally seem to assume Kabuto with Edo Tensei is top tier (and without it is still stronger than Itachi or Sasuke). Muu>Itachi is not that uncommon, either.

Evaluation of Danzou has gotten a lot fairer as his hype has died down; I wouldn't say he's underrated, though your mileage may vary based on Kotoamatsukami.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Muu, Gaara, and Kabuto are definitely not underrated; in fact, they are widely overrated. It's not uncommon to see people claim that Gaara in the desert can handle Itachi and Sasuke at the same time. People generally seem to assume Kabuto with Edo Tensei is top tier (and without it is still stronger than Itachi or Sasuke). Muu>Itachi is not that uncommon, either.
> 
> Evaluation of Danzou has gotten a lot fairer as his hype has died down; I wouldn't say he's underrated, though your mileage may vary based on Kotoamatsukami.



Granted the examples you have stated do arise occasionally in discussions but I do not see them that often that would make me put them in the "overrated catergory"  over others. Most of them except for the Gaara example in my opinion would be justified

Muu - On this forum Onoki seems to steal the spot light from Muu while in my opinion I believe it is Muu who is the superior ninja. I am still not totally sold on any side of the Mu vs itachi debate.

Gaara - In the desert I could see him overtaking Itachi or Sasuke in a 1v1 fight. However I have never seen the example you stated of him beating both of them at the same time

Kabuto - I just think the majority of this forum thinks Itachi > Kabuto since he got trapped in Izanami. I on the other hand think the arthur made it perfectly clear that Kabuto is beyond the likes of Edo Itachi in Sage Mode alone. Edo Tensei only makes his powers  increase 10 fold(exageration). Kabuto sits comfortably inbetween the likes of Minato, Tobirama, Itachi and the god tier such as Hashirama, Madara, Naruto and etc.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Muu - On this forum Onoki seems to steal the spot light from Muu while in my opinion I believe it is Muu who is the superior ninja. I am still not totally sold on any side of the Mu vs itachi debate.



I don't think I have ever seen a single person place Oonoki above Muu. Not a single one.

Muu can do everything Oonoki can with Jinton and weight manipulation. He can also turn invisible and conceal his presence from sensor-type shinobi. He also IS a sensor-type shinobi. He also isn't an old man with unpredictable back problems.



> Gaara - In the desert I could see him overtaking Itachi or Sasuke in a 1v1 fight. However I have never seen the example you stated of him beating both of them at the same time



There was a thread for it a while back. And even beating either of the brothers in one-on-one doesn't seem very likely if he couldn't handle an underprepared Deidara. Too many people seem to forget how much slower the desert sand is than his personal supply and just gawk at the size of the waves he can make.



> Kabuto - I just think the majority of this forum thinks Itachi > Kabuto since he got trapped in Izanami.



I'm pretty sure most people believe it's the other way around.



> I on the other hand think the arthur made it perfectly clear that Kabuto is beyond the likes of Edo Itachi in Sage Mode alone. Edo Tensei only makes his powers  increase 10 fold(exageration). Kabuto sits comfortably inbetween the likes of Minato, Tobirama, Itachi and the god tier such as Hashirama, Madara, Naruto and etc.



There's still that significant portion of the readership that treats Kabuto's power with Edo Tensei as equivalent to the sum of the powers of each Edo Tensei when they were alive and free, which is a fallacy of composition (and assumes that the Edo Tensei are in fact equivalent to their living counterparts).

I disagree with Kabuto being stronger than Itachi, btw; I just think he had an overwhelming advantage based on intel and the no-killing handicap.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't think I have ever seen a single person place Oonoki above Muu. Not a single one.



I must be reading the comments the wrong way then. Even Onoki in his prime* was probably weaker then Muu IMO 



> Muu can do everything Oonoki can with Jinton and weight manipulation. He can also turn invisible and conceal his presence from sensor-type shinobi. He also IS a sensor-type shinobi. He also isn't an old man with unpredictable back problems.



Agree completely




> There was a thread for it a while back. And even beating either of the brothers in one-on-one doesn't seem very likely if he couldn't handle an underprepared Deidara. Too many people seem to forget how much slower the desert sand is than his personal supply and just gawk at the size of the waves he can make.



I remember those threads however ALOT has changed since that time frame durring the manga. I'm tired of this old "unpreparred" Deidara argument. While deidara went upreparred, Gaara was protecting an entire village. Both had there own problems but it was not until deidara attacked the village itself that he  turned the tide of battle into his favor.

Current Gaara would probably fodderize Deidara 




> I'm pretty sure most people believe it's the other way around.



We're just gonna have to agree to disagree 



> There's still that significant portion of the readership that treats Kabuto's power with Edo Tensei as equivalent to the sum of the powers of each Edo Tensei when they were alive and free, which is a fallacy of composition (and assumes that the Edo Tensei are in fact equivalent to their living counterparts).
> 
> I disagree with Kabuto being stronger than Itachi, btw; I just think he had an overwhelming advantage based on intel and the no-killing handicap.



Granted Kabuto did have the advantage of knowledge however teamwork as shown can overcome said advantages. Kabuto was also caught off guard not knowing Nagato had the ability to track his location. Again with this "no killing handicap" thinking when  the Uchiha bros were not the only ones with a "handicap". Kabuto had his own agenda of  wanting to capture Sasuke alive and  re-writing Itachis program and I have a feeling were going to have to agree to disagree once again on which side had the bigger "handicap"


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## Santoryu (Oct 16, 2013)

According to some of the posters on this forum, Edo Itachi is not only capable of taking down Kakashi (the same man who overwhelmed Obito) but he can also take down Gai at the same time.  

This is a classic example of various posters severely underrating one character (Kakashi) and overrating the other (Edo Itachi). This is just an example, the way I see it, Itachi has the biggest fanbase on this forum so the wank surrounding him seems to be more dominant. Any relevant/popular character is often "wanked" by their own fandom, Itachi just has a bigger fandom on this forum, that's all. I've seen some absurd posts made by Jiraiya/Nagato/Kakashi/Raikage/Tsunade etc fans, and if they had the biggest fandom on this forum, their wank" would be the most dominant.

Bottom line is, everyone is biased to some extent, but a huge portion of this forum refuses to evolve and accept new feats, instead they attempt at making their own manga, their own tiers, their own power-levels, which highly differs from Kishimoto.


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## Krippy (Oct 16, 2013)

Naruto, Minato, Jiraiya and Tsunade are helllllla overwanked

"BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 

Sasuke, Orochimaru, Konan, and Sasori are underrated far to much in the BD


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2013)

@Complete_Ownage

Both Mu and Onoki are for sure Underrated on the forums. In Mu's case people go out of their way to ignore how Mu's Invis was stated by Kabuto to work (no-chakra), so certain characters can detect him. In more extreme cases people just flat out make up strange detection methods so they can write off his invis. And certainly any detection method that we don't know if it would work or not, is deemed to 100% work. So Mu's Invis is highly underestimated.

Onoki & Mu's other elemental abilities (Katon, Fuuton, in Mu's case his Doton ability too) are treated as non-existent. Of course we don't have feats for these, so I understand why it's hard to say what they have for sure, but for Onoki/Mu to go up against say a Raiton user and the possibility they could have a chance to counter with Fuuton not even being mentioned is really silly to me. Like wise the idea that they couldn't even do the most basic Fuuton or Katon related things like produce some fire or gust of wind, is also pretty ridiculous. So both are underestimated in this way. 

Jinton itself is underrated because people often do not account for the fact that it's literally imbued with the property to atomize whatever it touches. It's not a matter of just being a powerful Ki blast like Kamehameha, it literally will destroy anything on an atomic level. And was compared to Juubiobito's Black Element (though not as advanced, but still). And Kekkai Tota itself is underestimated as it tends to be treated as just another Blood-line when it is in reality more advance than any blood-line bar Rinnegan.

Finally Mu and Onoki's accomplishments are underrated substantially. Mu is the only Edo besides Nagato and Madara who required 3 Top Notch Shinobi to take him down kinda of. Onoki was shown countering Hashirama and Madara level Techniques and Madara showed the most reverence for him by far out of the 5 Gokage. Yet normally these two are still said to be one the same tier as most other Kages in the manga. 

In Onoki's case I could go into even more areas where he is underestimated; flight, weight alteration, earth-shifting core, golem, Iwa-bushin etc.. Pretty much all Onoki's Jutsu are underestimated. He's probably the most underestimated character in proportion to his feats out of anyone else. But I won't go into that as this post is long enough already.


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## RBL (Oct 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Granted the examples you have stated do arise occasionally in discussions but I do not see them that often that would make me put them in the "overrated catergory"  over others. Most of them except for the Gaara example in my opinion would be justified
> 
> Muu - On this forum Onoki seems to steal the spot light from Muu while in my opinion I believe it is Muu who is the superior ninja. I am still not totally sold on any side of the Mu vs itachi debate.
> 
> ...



you don't sound like a neutral guy at all


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## Kisame (Oct 16, 2013)

Overrated: Minato, Itachi, Tsunade.

Underrated: Kisame.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 16, 2013)

Brandon Lee said:


> you don't sound like a neutral guy at all



care to explain?


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 16, 2013)

Turrin said:


> @Complete_Ownage
> 
> Both Mu and Onoki are for sure Underrated on the forums. In Mu's case people go out of their way to ignore how Mu's Invis was stated by Kabuto to work (no-chakra), so certain characters can detect him. In more extreme cases people just flat out make up strange detection methods so they can write off his invis. And certainly any detection method that we don't know if it would work or not, is deemed to 100% work. So Mu's Invis is highly underestimated.
> 
> ...



Don't get me wrong i'm not disagreeing with you or Nikushimi on the abilities or feats of both onoki or Muu but as the OP stated it's just a matter of personal opinion on who you think is overrated . It may simply come down to the fact that you guys visit/read the forum more then I do and therefor see more threads. With that being said I see much more posted about Onoki then I do Mu when I do read

As an example I have noticed you post that Jiraiya has the means of detecting Mu with his detection barrier which in turn makes perfect sense. Besides that I do not recall who you said would win in a 1v1 fight(if you have) but  in my opinion I  just feel that even with the barrier Mu is simply on another level then Jiraiya


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## Ninja Art (Oct 16, 2013)

Overrated: Naruto,Itachi,Minato,Gai,Ei(Speed Wise),Gaara(people believe he can take on Sasuke but forget MS Sasuke babyshakes Gaara let alone EMS Sasuke...Sasuke will slap Gaara so many ways...that he won't be able to remember his own name)Ononki, and Tsunade

Underrated: Sasuke,Sasori,Sakura,Orochimaru, and Danzo


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## Rocky (Oct 16, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Naruto, Minato, Jiraiya and Tsunade are helllllla overwanked
> 
> "BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> Sasuke, Orochimaru, Konan, and Sasori are underrated far to much in the BD




Naruto & Sasuke might have just surpassed Hashirama and Madara in this chapter.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I must be reading the comments the wrong way then. Even Onoki in his prime* was probably weaker then Muu IMO



That seems likely, unless being restored to his prime would do a lot more for Oonoki than cure his back problems and give him a little extra stamina.



> I remember those threads however ALOT has changed since that time frame durring the manga. I'm tired of this old "unpreparred" Deidara argument. While deidara went upreparred, Gaara was protecting an entire village. Both had there own problems but it was not until deidara attacked the village itself that he  turned the tide of battle into his favor.



Deidara attacked the village to draw away Gaara's extra desert sand. If you take away Gaara's terrain advantage and C3, you just have Deidara beating Gaara (on neutral ground) with C1. Which says...A LOT about the difference in their power.



> Current Gaara would probably fodderize Deidara



I really, really doubt it. Even if he can avoid falling for the same C1 trick a second time, his ability to survive C3 with just his gourd sand is a little more than just questionable. C4 is something he is just totally unequipped to handle and nothing, not even the desert, can save him from CO.



> Granted Kabuto did have the advantage of knowledge however teamwork as shown can overcome said advantages.



And, in a lot of ways, it did. But that doesn't undermine the fact that Kabuto did have those advantages.



> Kabuto was also caught off guard not knowing Nagato had the ability to track his location.



I wouldn't say he was caught off-guard; he knew Itachi was coming because he could hear everything Itachi was discussing with Naruto and Killer B. Itachi also smashed open a new doorway into Kabuto's lair right in front of him. There wasn't really any surprise factor worth noting- certainly not one that affected Kabuto's performance.



> Again with this "no killing handicap" thinking when  the Uchiha bros were not the only ones with a "handicap". Kabuto had his own agenda of  wanting to capture Sasuke alive and  re-writing Itachis program



Sasuke was the only one Kabuto didn't want to kill; he didn't have to pull any punches with Itachi.

The Uchiha Bros. were just not allowed to use any of the attacks that would've allowed them to win conventionally; they had to bet everything on Izanami.



> and I have a feeling were going to have to agree to disagree once again on which side had the bigger "handicap"



It was definitely the Uchiha Bros., as their inability to kill or injure Kabuto was emphasized by him multiple times and he knew a lot more about their Jutsu than they knew about his.



Rocky said:


> Naruto & Sasuke might have just surpassed Hashirama and Madara in this chapter.



In faggotry.


----------



## -JT- (Oct 16, 2013)

Underrated:
Neji
Lee
Tsunade

Overrated:
Itachi
Minato
Sasuke


----------



## Rocky (Oct 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> In faggotry.




So before the chapter, Hashirama & Madara were the bigger ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)?


----------



## Krippy (Oct 16, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto & Sasuke might have just surpassed Hashirama and Madara in this chapter.



Rocky, stahp


----------



## Jad (Oct 16, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> at the top of my head,
> 
> itachi is over rated,
> 
> ...



Gai and Lee overrated?

There is literally a thread of *Rock Lee vs Konohamaru* right now []

There was a thread that matched Darui and Gai []

There was a thread of Gai vs Sakura with people claiming he loses []

A person claimed Suigetsu could beat Gai []

And posters saying Gai is as fast as Kakashi and base Sasuke in the 6th Gate. 

And MANY people have already established that Gai is too dumb to pull out a Kunai and use it because the manga hasn't shown him doing so. Even though he has used a foreign weapon in combat before (Samehada). As with many Shinobi before. But his a dumbass, so he won't pull it out.

So spare me the Gai and Lee is overrated part. They are underrated, and pretty badly. I will keep throwing you examples, I can do it all day.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 16, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Rocky, stahp




I said Sasuke too. You can't hate on me now.


----------



## Jad (Oct 16, 2013)

Also, Kakashi is pretty underrated when his not using Kamui.


----------



## Krippy (Oct 16, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I said Sasuke too. You can't hate on me now.



that's irrelevant

they're both still ants compared to the legends


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 16, 2013)

I also would like to say kisame sometimes get _slightly_ overrated. 

He is not some super durable freak like some make him out to be as he got pierced by aoba's kunai, bee's stingerz, was scared to death of bee's raiton pencil and got completely demolished by lariat and AT. Which means without regen his damage soak is a good grade less than those techs which is not jinchuuriki shroud, SM, raikage or gaara sand defense impressive. His endurance and regen is what should be praised. His durability is like...above average imo.

I was also kinda wondering why someone thought he would blitz the gama trio underwater and jiraiya without them being able to fight back/reverse summon jiraiya out of there. But i think joker j is a slight mist ninja fanatic so it could just be a outlier case.


----------



## Lace (Oct 16, 2013)

Overrated:
-Itachi
-Hashirama
-Tobirama
-Shikamaru
-Kushina
-Konan
-Minato
-Zabuza

Underrated:
-Kiba
-TenTen
-Ino
-Sai
-Juugo


----------



## Rocky (Oct 16, 2013)

Krippy said:


> that's irrelevant
> 
> they're both still ants compared to the legends




They both beat Jubito, who's >>> "legends".


----------



## Alita (Oct 16, 2013)

Overrated-Any version of itachi, sasori, A, kabuto, jiraiya, hebi sasuke, chiyo, and non cloacked/bijuu mode minato are seriously overrated.

Underrated-kakuzu, sakura, kitsuchi, tsunade, tobirama, onoki, muu, hiruzen, hidan, and kakashi are seriously underrated


----------



## nfcnorth (Oct 17, 2013)

Going to split it up into sections lol because I think that more than characters can be overrated. Just my two cents nothing more.


*Overrated traits*

Speed- seriously people act like speed is the only thing that matters. Plus honestly I don't think the supposed gaps is speed are really that far apart. Personally I think even the slowest character could "blitz" a faster character, because honestly I think most of the "blitz" situations that have appeared in the magna are just accomplished by people doing the unexpected. Now I am not saying there are no differences in speed in the magna, just that they get way overblown and the gaps in speed are not as big as people claim. Besides even a no name fodder can move at speeds that are impossible for a normal human to reach. 

Dojustu- I will admit most of them are strong, but I get tired of the opinion that dojutsu makes people unbeatble. Yes some are pretty broken but I think they are beatable. Plus it's annoying that people give there only reason on why charcter x beats y is because x has a dojutsu. Other abilities are important too and all doustu have weaknesses.

*Overrated characters* (note I do not hate any of these characters on this list, in fact a fan of most of them just think that they are seen a little to highly for their abilities).

Itachi- i think his abilities have been exaggerated just a little to much for my tastes
Guy- he just barely qualifies for me as overrated. While I do think he is strong I don't see him taking certain matchups as effortlessly as is claimed. 

Minato- not so much as he used to be but I think he can be overrated at times, I do think he is a character you could make an argument for being on both lists as sometimes he is criminally underrated.

Madara- Don't get me wrong he is a really really strong dude, but I think people tend to forget that the current Madara has been upgraded by Kabuto and benefits from having a regenerating body.  

*
Underrated Traits*

One trait I think is severally underrated is healing so thus I think all healers are underrated at least a little bit.  I can see how attacks are more appealing to some but there are other aspects to combat than just who has the flashiest techniques. I do appreciate the flashy technique I just don't think it is the whole story.

*underrated characters *
 Gokage-People really same to give the gokage crap for losing to an upgraded edo Madara.  I personally think it was a pretty significant buff so I really can't fault them for losing, especially when Madara can fight far more recklessly due to being an edo tensei. It also doesn't help that it hasn't been specifically stated what exactly edo tensei does for the revived shinobi's chakra so we don't really know what Madara is working with. The rest should be self explanatory for the most part.
the rest of the the list:
Ino
Choji
Sakura
Tenten
Konan 
Sasori


----------



## Rocky (Oct 17, 2013)

Did you just honestly say that 1010 is _under_rated?


----------



## Rain (Oct 17, 2013)

Overrated: Naruto and Juubito.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Don't get me wrong i'm not disagreeing with you or Nikushimi on the abilities or feats of both onoki or Muu but as the OP stated it's just a matter of personal opinion on who you think is overrated . It may simply come down to the fact that you guys visit/read the forum more then I do and therefor see more threads. With that being said I see much more posted about Onoki then I do Mu when I do read


It's okay you can disagree with Niku, he's wrong lol.



> As an example I have noticed you post that Jiraiya has the means of detecting Mu with his detection barrier which in turn makes perfect sense. Besides that I do not recall who you said would win in a 1v1 fight(if you have) but  in my opinion I  just feel that even with the barrier Mu is simply on another level then Jiraiya


I agree with you that Mu in most scenarios is more deadly than J-man; . The issue is that J-man is well suited to dealing with Mu. His detection barrier is one of the few proven counters to Mu's Invis. Depending on the terrain he's also got Gammagakuru no Jutsu which would allow him to escape detection from Mu's sensing since it blocks chakra detection; which would allow J-man to prep things like SM & Frog Song, though that would require J-man considering Mu a big enough threat to pull such a tactic . J-man also have a powerful long-range Jutsu in the form of Gama Yu Endan that could kill Mu regardless of flight. And unlike Onoki Mu hasn't really shown massive Dotons that could potentially defend Gama Yu Endan. With that said Jinton is equally dangerous to J-man as Gama Yu Endan is for Mu. So both have high killing potential.

So I guess who would win in a battle between them would come down to a few things:

1. How much knowledge J-man and Mu have on each other in the match
2. The Location of the Match
3. Whether Mu has massive Dotons like Onoki's Goremu no Jutsu
4. Who pulls out what first; Mu Jinton or J-man Gama Yu Endan, which would probably depend on the first 2 factors.

So I could see the match going ether way. Though again J-man off the top of my head is the character from the manga-cannon most specifically equipped to countering Mu's shown abilities. So J-man's ability to potentially be successful against Mu is probably not completely a strength issue.


----------



## Veracity (Oct 17, 2013)

Jad said:


> Gai and Lee overrated?
> 
> There is literally a thread of *Rock Lee vs Konohamaru* right now []
> 
> ...





Legs not being up the many terrible Gai threads; Gai vs Gokage- Gai vs Sannin.

And regarding the Sakura vs Gai match, it honestly is a close match. In the most popular Gai vs Tsunade thread , Tsunade was voted to win due to her outlasting Gai via Regen. & now Sakura has regen and Katsuyu. She also has superior striking power then Gai. So I can see why some would think she could pull off a win with extreme difficulty


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 17, 2013)

Gai is underrated. The one that puts Hashirama to shame said not to underrate him and ran from his presence. Yet people ignore King Itachi's orders.

Katsuyu is also underrated. She defeating Itachi, Minato, Nagato and Full Kurama? She fell that low? It's like putting Itachi against Konohamaru.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 17, 2013)

I personally feel that Base Jiraiya is very underrated.


----------



## Jad (Oct 17, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Legs not being up the many terrible Gai threads; Gai vs Gokage- Gai vs Sannin.
> 
> And regarding the Sakura vs Gai match, it honestly is a close match. In the most popular Gai vs Tsunade thread , Tsunade was voted to win due to her outlasting Gai via Regen. & now Sakura has regen and Katsuyu. She also has superior striking power then Gai. So I can see why some would think she could pull off a win with extreme difficulty



Those Gokage vs Gai threads and Sannin threads, are just composite fan made ones. Those don't mean much in the end. Edo Gai with 8 Gates infinite everything. The match is already overrated.

But if you mean 1 on 1 matches with Gai taking on the Sannin or Gokage, then that is not overrating Gai.

Also, you saying Sakura can take Gai on extreme difficulty is JUST my point. You are either overrating Sakura, or underrating Gai, or both.

The match-up:

Sakura doesn't have Tsunade's damage soak or resillencey. What Gai does to Tsunade (the amount of damage for example) is mutch more for Sakura. That's strike 1.
Sakura can't even touch Gai in base. She can lift him off the ground with her quake punches, but he will always come back down safely. His Taijutsu is completely on a different planet than hers. Strike 2.
Sakura has not shown to have a full body Byakugon Seal, which is associated with regeneration. Strike 3.

Also, regarding Tsunade vs Gai, the votes in her favour. That doesn't mean anything. I can show you a thread right now if you want me to get it, of a match between the two with more votes all together, favoring Gai. This is after the fact they have gotten all the feats they have shown up until now. So don't bother me with "The latest Tsunade thread has more votes".

Again, if you don't believe Tsunade won't die from Gai's onslaught, which I certainly believe he can with an abundance of provided evidence. He can always use a Kuani if that's the route you will stick too.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 17, 2013)

Jad said:


> Also, Kakashi is pretty underrated when his not using Kamui.



When he is using Kamui, he 1 shots everyone.
When he isn't using it, he gets killed by Hidan.





Rocky said:


> I personally feel that Base Jiraiya is very underrated.



Base Jiraiya doesn't have proper display.

Actually Jiraiya doesn't have proper display. The dude got killed in the first real fight he got. Kishimoto did great unjustice to  Jiraiya imo.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I personally feel that Base Jiraiya is very underrated.



Any time a character gets a super mode, people seem to think they always need it to win any v match.  Hashirama, Jiraiya, and Kabuto will always need sage mode, Tsunade will always need byako, and Guy will always need gates.

It's like if someone gets a new mode, their base form is allowed to be weak, and that really isn't the case.  


Also Itachi hasn't had love in a very long time.  People remember the days when legions of posters said he soloed, but they're not here anymore.The Will of Fire group minus Hashi is experiencing their day in the sun, because that's what all the chapters have been about.


----------



## Jad (Oct 17, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When he is using Kamui, he 1 shots everyone.
> When he isn't using it, he gets killed by Hidan.



Ain't that a bitch.


----------



## ? (Oct 17, 2013)

Underrated: Orochimaru and Sasuke (sometimes)

Overrated: Tobirama


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 17, 2013)

Not trying to sound bias, but saying Minato is overrated is kind of like saying Goku or Superman is overrated , is he overhyped yes, but his level is what the author has established , he's only mostly overrated to people who dislike his character , I don't really love his character but I understand what the author is trying to portray 

I also don't see how any Kunoichi is overrated , there are maybe only 2-3 Tsunade fans and I know I'm one of the only people on the forums who constantly defend Sakura and Konan


----------



## Veracity (Oct 17, 2013)

Jad said:


> Those Gokage vs Gai threads and Sannin threads, are just composite fan made ones. Those don't mean much in the end. Edo Gai with 8 Gates infinite everything. The match is already overrated.
> 
> But if you mean 1 on 1 matches with Gai taking on the Sannin or Gokage, then that is not overrating Gai.
> 
> ...



Yeah well that make sense, he should be able to take on some members 1 on 1 but he's gets killed gauntlet style. & regarding some of the composite matches, I've seen matches saying he has constant 7th gates(he's not beating any mid tier Kage in base mode) and that he still can solo 3 on 1 battles.  Not even close.

You know how this manga works. Kishi isn't going sit here and make Sakura some type of fragile Tsunade. She has been literally copy and paste this entire time, she has no reason to be inferior to Tsunade In anyway other then speed and experience. So I think she's fine talking point blank hits considering Gai point blank guy punched a severely weakened Kisame and he had no injuries. 

She also can use Katsuyu to buffer his attacks.  And it was established in the OP that she  had Tsunades regen. & no really going to debate this with you, we can create a thread or something.

The thing is, I didn't count the voters I read the entire thread and noticed that the posters with re most common sense were voting for Tsunade and were arguing for her better then Gai was being argued. So yeah Tsunade >Gai .


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 17, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> You know how this manga works. Kishi isn't going sit here and make Sakura some type of fragile Tsunade. She has been literally copy and paste this entire time, she has no reason to be inferior to Tsunade In anyway other then speed and experience. So I think she's fine talking point blank hits considering Gai point blank guy punched a severely weakened Kisame and he had no injuries.



No, Sakura was going to be killed by a Juubi miniclone if not for Naruto and Sasuke before she could react even seeing it (A mini clone that survived that super overrated punch to the ground). So yeah, Kishi sat there and made Sakura some type of fragile Tsunade .




> The thing is, I didn't count the voters I read the entire thread and noticed that the posters with re most common sense were voting for Tsunade and were arguing for her better then Gai was being argued. So yeah Tsunade >Gai .



No as well. It is a matter of opinion. The only argument of Tsunade beating Gai is if she hides in Katsuyu, something Tsunade has never done in battle, but sure, she would do and the counter argument for Gai is that he will keep kicking her, knowing that he might get outlasted and not using weaponry like a Kunai to fuck her up badly, just because he has never done that. Notice the double standard?

And the most common sense for you might have been because you think Tsunade would beat Gai (Not saying this is incorrect, i think Gai would beat her and i found the most common sense in Jad's posts).

And pretty debating is cool to read, but that doesn't define a debate. See Strategoob (I admire him), his pretty debating makes Itachi almost invincible, and his logic makes it seem that if Itachi had Tsunade's strenght. And it's so well redacted and with even some "hacked" logic from the manga that he can even convince you.

The same in a debate of Itachi vs Nagato. Itachi has the most fans, more people pretty debating in his side. But that doesn't mean he beats Nagato. And doesn't put him above him either.


----------



## Laozy (Oct 17, 2013)

Kakashi is the most overrated friend on this forum.



> Kamui gg


or


> Kakashi takes Jiraiya mid-high diff..




Kakashi gets creamed against people like Jiraiya


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Oct 17, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I agree with you that Mu in most scenarios is more deadly than J-man; . The issue is that J-man is well suited to dealing with Mu. His detection barrier is one of the few proven counters to Mu's Invis.



Agree.

I would also assume giving knowledge that Jiraiya is facing an opponent such as Mu that he could prep Yomi Numa as well. 



> Depending on the terrain he's also got Gammagakuru no Jutsu which would allow him to escape detection from Mu's sensing since it blocks chakra detection; which would allow J-man to prep things like SM & Frog Song, though that would require J-man considering Mu a big enough threat to pull such a tactic



I assume this is the Jutsu Jiraiya used to gain access to Amegakure undetected correct? I personally don't see this as a technique Jiraiya would utilize in the middle battle to prep SM. He has other means to accomplish this goal and is better suited for infiltrating villages as stated.



> J-man also have a powerful long-range Jutsu in the form of Gama Yu Endan that could kill Mu regardless of flight. And unlike Onoki Mu hasn't really shown massive Dotons that could potentially defend Gama Yu Endan. With that said Jinton is equally dangerous to J-man as Gama Yu Endan is for Mu. So both have high killing potential.



Mu has shown incredibly haxxed sensing abilities that would help him detect and deal with any Aoe Jutsus. Mu is no slouch in the speed/reflex department thanks to his sensing. Onoki is like a sitting duck compared to Mu



> So I guess who would win in a battle between them would come down to a few things:
> 
> 1. How much knowledge J-man and Mu have on each other in the match
> 2. The Location of the Match
> ...


.

Only way I see Jiraiya winning is if he has knowledge on all of Mu's abilties while Mu has no knowledge on Jiriaya


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Agree.
> 
> I would also assume giving knowledge that Jiraiya is facing an opponent such as Mu that he could prep Yomi Numa as well.


Possibly though how that would work against a flying enemy idk.



> I assume this is the Jutsu Jiraiya used to gain access to Amegakure undetected correct? I personally don't see this as a technique Jiraiya would utilize in the middle battle to prep SM. He has other means to accomplish this goal and is better suited for infiltrating villages as stated.


-He used similar toad to hide away against Pain, don't see why he wouldn't do so if he needed to against Mu
-Against a sensor with Jinton I'm not sure he does have other options. 



> Mu has shown incredibly haxxed sensing abilities that would help him detect and deal with any Aoe Jutsus. Mu is no slouch in the speed/reflex department thanks to his sensing.


I rate Mu's sensing and Mu's (& Onoki's) flight speed very highly, but there is no way in hell they are escaping the AOE of Gama Yu Endan. Gama Yu Endan's AOE is so massive that it's still probably top10 largest AOE techniques in the manga cannon, even after all the insane powerscaling. 



> Onoki is like a sitting duck compared to Mu


Like I said Onoki can defend with a massive Doton Golem for a Shield



> Only way I see Jiraiya winning is if he has knowledge on all of Mu's abilties while Mu has no knowledge on Jiriaya


Which may very well be the case. I mean J-man is in that sweat spot, where he's old enough where he may remember Mu, but he is young enough where Mu probably died before the Sannin came to prominence. So I could easily see J-man having the knowledge advantage and combine that with J-man being a poor match up for Mu, and you definitely have potential there for J-man pulling out the win. 

In retrospect J-man is much less likely to have this knowledge advantage against Onoki


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Oct 17, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Possibly though how that would work against a flying enemy idk.



Well yea that would do nothing against a flying opponent
Was thinking more along the lines of when Gaara detected him



> I rate Mu's sensing and Mu's (& Onoki's) flight speed very highly, but there is no way in hell they are escaping the AOE of Gama Yu Endan. Gama Yu Endan's AOE is so massive that it's still probably top10 largest AOE techniques in the manga cannon, even after all the insane powerscaling.



If far enough way what stops Mu from using Jinton to blast away that portion of jutsu



> Like I said Onoki can defend with a massive Doton Golem for a Shield



You would be correct. Forgot to take that into account


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> If far enough way what stops Mu from using Jinton to blast away that portion of jutsu


Well that's what i'm saying, it would probably depend on who would pull out what first. Mu-Jinton or J-man-Gama Yu Endan. Which is really a toss up for me depending on knowledge, location, and probably more importantly whatever Kishi wants for the plot, if such a battle went down.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 17, 2013)

I also think killer bee is overrated by many on the forums , many people place him above the Sannin when in reality he's probably closer to Kakashi, Gai level at best.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 17, 2013)

And B has just been added to my underrated characters list.


----------



## RBL (Oct 17, 2013)

oooh i forgot

Sasori is the most overrated 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Shit


 on the forums

tsunade probably comming on a second place.

also jiraiya is kind of overrated as well
Shikamaru (not in the BD Though)
Gaara

Underrated:

Itachi has been getting nerfed lately on the BD.
Orochimaru
Sasuke
Neji
Mu
Lee


----------



## Veracity (Oct 17, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> No, Sakura was going to be killed by a Juubi miniclone if not for Naruto and Sasuke before she could react even seeing it (A mini clone that survived that super overrated punch to the ground). So yeah, Kishi sat there and made Sakura some type of fragile Tsunade .
> 
> 
> That's cool I guess. I do to see the logic in that however
> ...



That's not what I have read, on several occasions that Tsunade outlasts him or gets off one strike.


----------



## Kai (Oct 17, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Not trying to sound bias, but saying Minato is overrated is kind of like saying Goku or Superman is overrated , is he overhyped yes, but his level is what the author has established , he's only mostly overrated to people who dislike his character , I don't really love his character but I understand what the author is trying to portray
> 
> I also don't see how any Kunoichi is overrated , there are maybe only 2-3 Tsunade fans and I know I'm one of the only people on the forums who constantly defend Sakura and Konan


If the neutral reader placed Edo Minato as the 4th or 5th most powerful shinobi we've seen fight in the manga, that's already _extremely_ high on the tier lists. Minato is insanely powerful, especially with Kurama's chakra.

And yet Minato fans want to just push the shit out of buttons and place him even higher, even already claiming he's above both Hashirama and Madara.

I have witnessed Minato fans *only* admit he loses to Juubito and BSM Naruto, and they will argue to the ends of the earth that he belongs there. 

THAT is overrated.

I can also see from a mile away that no Minato fan will ever have the humility to admit Sasuke will be more powerful than he is.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2013)

Kai said:


> If the neutral reader placed Edo Minato as the 4th or 5th most powerful shinobi we've seen fight in the manga, that's already _extremely_ high on the tier lists. Minato is insanely powerful, especially with Kurama's chakra.
> 
> And yet Minato fans want to just push the shit out of buttons and place him even higher, even already claiming he's above both Hashirama and Madara.
> 
> ...



Hashirama fans think they he's stronger than obito, yet you don't seem to think he's overrated. 
and beleiveing he does not stand a chance against them is underrated, hell even LEE fodderized madara.

I actually admit that Sasuke will be more powerful, that's so obvious.


----------



## Kai (Oct 17, 2013)

How many Hashirama fans can you think of, Elia?


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2013)

Kai said:


> How many Hashirama fans can you think of, Elia?



---

and there are others who believe Hashi can fodderize Naruto, or Sasuke
or even defeating them at the same time! I actually even saw some people state
that Hashi is stronger than the tree. 

(that was in Naruto Base though)

and you can go ahead and create a thread Hashi Vs all Kabuto's edo
or against the 3 Hokages

and so on, and I can guarantee that you WILL see Hashi's fans who will state that he
will win.  

but, oh well. Never mind.


----------



## Kai (Oct 17, 2013)

I wasn't trying to have you call anyone out, that's rather inappropriate.

The point is you go ahead and think of the Hashirama fanbase, and then think of the Minato fanbase. Minato's fanbase in mass can and have actually become the public consensus on Minato's fights in his threads while Hashi's rather limited fanbase would never be able to do such a thing.

When the fans of the character have the power to become the public consensus? That's when you know the character gets dangerously overrated.


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 17, 2013)

Laozy said:


> Kakashi is the most overrated friend on this forum.
> 
> 
> or
> ...



Jiraiya? 


This isnt 2010.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2013)

Kai said:


> I wasn't trying to have you call anyone out, that's rather inappropriate.
> 
> The point is you go ahead and think of the Hashirama fanbase, and then think of the Minato fanbase. Minato's fanbase in mass can and have actually become the public consensus on Minato's fights in his threads while Hashi's rather limited fanbase would never be able to do such a thing.



I fixed that. 

That's just because Minato's fans are larger than Hashirama's, and that's about it. 

and I honestly don't see how stating Minato can defeat them is overrating! When has the firepower and he has the strongest defensive jutsu, and he is much smarter than Hashi as well. 

of course it is not like he will stomp him or win 10 out of 10 times. 
But saying Hashi will win every single time, and saying he will win easy to med difficult
IS overrating Hashi. People even think he will win with ONE jutsu. 

anyway both are overrated, but IMO Hashi is the most overrated from all the characters. 
even in the last chapter they give him other characters' feats!




conclusion. Hashi IS severely overrated.


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 17, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> I also think killer bee is overrated by many on the forums , many people place him above the Sannin



Well, he is above them. 


> when in reality he's probably closer to Kakashi, Gai level at best.


But those guys are also stronger than the Sannin, Kakashi in particular, so your post is amusing.


----------



## Krippy (Oct 17, 2013)

Until Minato gets more feats he'll still remain roughly Edo Itachi's level in my eyes. I don't believe in feat stacking cuz there's nothing that says Minato is as proficient as his son in utilizing kurama

Tobirama is another who's overrated mostly by his fans



Rocky said:


> They both beat Jubito, who's >>> "legends".



only cuz lelfriendship


----------



## Rocky (Oct 17, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Until Minato gets more feats he'll still remain roughly Edo Itachi's level in my eyes. I don't believe in feat stacking cuz there's nothing that says Minato is as proficient as his son in utilizing kurama




He just as to sit in the giant fox avatar and solo. Edo Madara said the Bijuu have comparable power to his Perfect Susano'o. 

Itachi is just a worse version of Sasuke who's a worse version of Edo Madz. It's laughable at this point to suggest that average level Mangekyou useage is going to take down a Perfect Jincuriki of the 9 tails that can teleport. 





> only cuz lelfriendship




It's time to let go. :ignoramus


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 17, 2013)

I think we can all agree that Kakashi looked good in the latest chapter


----------



## Krippy (Oct 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He just as to sit in the giant fox avatar and solo. Madara said the Bijuu have comparable power to his Perfect Susano'o.




Implying he'll make it that far :ignoramus




> It's time to let go. :ignoramus


----------



## egressmadara (Oct 17, 2013)

Underrated: Sasori and Shino.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 17, 2013)

I think it's time.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 17, 2013)

Yeah forgot Tobirama. He is overrated as fuck.


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 17, 2013)

*HUGELY OVERRATED*
Itachi
Gai

*OVERRATED*
Kakashi
Katsuyu
Raikages
Onoki
Lee
Tsunade

*UNDERRATED* 
Naruto
Mu
Mei
Sasori
Chiyo
Sage Frogs
Danzo

*HUGELY UNDERRATED*
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Hiruzen Sarutobi (3rd Hokage)
Pain


----------



## tanman (Oct 17, 2013)

I would say that Minato is probably the single most overrated character in this section.
Jiraiya, Tsunade, and others are pretty high up there too.


I've always thought that the Six Paths of Pain are underrated.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Oct 18, 2013)

Maito Gai is underated, big time.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 18, 2013)

You guys all know we interpret and value different aspects of the manga different way which leads to varying opinions, right?

For example, I value the taijutsu stat rather highly, whereas other people don't even know or care what it's good for, and lump it in with speed and power.  So we naturally have different interpretations of character strengths for those who have higher tai than speed.  Most of the over/under rated claims I see here are, "How widely are my views on character/attribute x agreed or disagreed with?"  Or, "How annoying is X character's fandom?"


----------



## Blaze Release (Oct 18, 2013)

I do not feel any member has a say when it comes to who they believe is overrated or underrated because at the end of the day, how one perceives a character will be different to another. So to some, X character is being overrated while to another they are being underrated.

Another thing i feel about these type of threads is that, X member will suck dry the last nuts out of another character, wipe their mouth and state another character is overrated, when they are basically doing the exact same thing. You then get those who claim their fav character is underrated or the character they hate is overrated.

If i was to be honest the 3 most overrated are:

Jiraiya
Minato
Itachi

These 3 i have heard the most nonsense about and majority of the times i just hope its trolling, but i feel it isn't. Some try and justify their wank, by telling us about their translation of the manga (always makes me laugh) , or writing quite a bit, which really its all wank being justified.

Underrated.
Quiet a few of the akatsuki members, especially nagato's 6 paths and Kisame.
Tsunade
Past Edo kage's


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 18, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> Well, he is above them.
> 
> But those guys are also stronger than the Sannin, Kakashi in particular, so your post is amusing.



none of this based upon feats, statements , or hype


----------



## Kisame (Oct 18, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> I also would like to say kisame sometimes get _slightly_ overrated.
> 
> He is not some super durable freak like some make him out to be as he got pierced by aoba's kunai, bee's stingerz, was scared to death of bee's raiton pencil and got completely demolished by lariat and AT. Which means without regen his damage soak is a good grade less than those techs which is not jinchuuriki shroud, SM, raikage or gaara sand defense impressive. His endurance and regen is what should be praised. His durability is like...above average imo.


You're looking at his feats the wrong way.

No one claimed Kisame cannot be pierced, and obviously Bee's Raiton-enhanced weaponry won't fail to pierce him. There is a difference between blunt damage and piercing damage.

When we see Bee's weaker V1 Lariat opening Sasuke's chest and compare it to Bee's much stronger V2 Lariat that only managed to do the same to Kisame - we can see a bit of durability from Kisame here.

When you take into account that Gai in base has a 5 in strength and can destroy large rocks, and then you add on to that the power increase from achieving the 7th gate, and also add on to that him using his *most powerful, one-hit kill* Jutsu in that state, and you see it *failing* to kill Kisame - you would then be eligible to make a supported statement regarding his durability such as "Kisame can tank/endure Tsunade's punch, as Gai's strongest physical attack in the seventh gate failed to kill him".

That's how you go on about it.


> I was also kinda wondering why someone thought he would blitz the gama trio underwater and jiraiya without them being able to fight back/reverse summon jiraiya out of there. But i think joker j is a slight mist ninja fanatic so it could just be a outlier case.


You need to factor in Kisame's speed underwater, and that Jiraiya will lose some of his Ninjutsu arsenal and *all* of his physical abilities due to being underwater, and that he will be lacking oxygen (a very serious problem, as Bee showed us).

(Though eventually I do agree that Jiraiya would win)


Eliyua23 said:


> Not trying to sound bias, but saying Minato is overrated is kind of like saying Goku or Superman is overrated , is he overhyped yes, but his level is what the author has established , he's only mostly overrated to people who dislike his character , I don't really love his character but I understand what the author is trying to portray


Goku would be Naruto though.


Eliyua23 said:


> I also think killer bee is overrated by many on the forums , many people place him above the Sannin when in reality he's probably closer to Kakashi, Gai level at best.


"Sannin" doesn't hold much in a power-scale comparison when you remember Tsunade is there.





Blaze Release said:


> Quiet a few of the akatsuki members, especially nagato's 6 paths and *Kisame.*
> Tsunade
> Past Edo kage's


Oh, you.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 18, 2013)

Kai said:


> If the neutral reader placed Edo Minato as the 4th or 5th most powerful shinobi we've seen fight in the manga, that's already _extremely_ high on the tier lists. Minato is insanely powerful, especially with Kurama's chakra.
> 
> And yet Minato fans want to just push the shit out of buttons and place him even higher, even already claiming he's above both Hashirama and Madara.
> 
> ...




Only thing holding Sasuke back is feats I can gurantee without a shadow of a doubt he will be stronger than Minato by the time this manga is over with ,

to be honest  the only people that can be guaranteed as stronger than Minato with no argument are 

Rikudo, Juubito, Naruto, Sasuke(end game), 

guys like Kabuto, Hashirama, Madara, are 50/50 as it could go either way based upon what we've seen, Minato in base had tremendous hype then when you add BM on top of that and the fact he could've easily dispatched of Rinnegan Obito it's easy to place him close to the top of the power tiers, 

but there are guys like Jiriyia, Orochimaru, Itachi with the proper knowledge in the proper scenario that could give him trouble due to match up


----------



## Kisame (Oct 18, 2013)

Hashirama would wipe the floor with Minato.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 18, 2013)

Shark said:


> You're looking at his feats the wrong way.
> 
> No one claimed Kisame cannot be pierced, and obviously Bee's Raiton-enhanced weaponry won't fail to pierce him. There is a difference between blunt damage and piercing damage.
> 
> ...



I was really talking about Jiriyia and Orochimaru , but Tsunade's support feats are more impressive than Bee'd feats in combat, and just when you look at how characters have been portrayed , the Sannin seem to hold more clout where as Bee seems like a sidekick/teacher like Kakashi.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Oct 18, 2013)

I personally find assessments of naruto or minato casually soloing or oneshotting madara or hashirama with 1/2 kyuubi powers to be outrageous. Madara would still beat current sasuke and hashi would still beat current naruto.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 18, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> *HUGELY UNDERRATED*
> Jiraiya






*Spoiler*: __


----------



## tanman (Oct 18, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You guys all know we interpret and value different aspects of the manga different way which leads to varying opinions, right?
> 
> For example, I value the taijutsu stat rather highly, whereas other people don't even know or care what it's good for, and lump it in with speed and power.  So we naturally have different interpretations of character strengths for those who have higher tai than speed.  Most of the over/under rated claims I see here are, "How widely are my views on character/attribute x agreed or disagreed with?"  Or, "How annoying is X character's fandom?"



Yeah, you're right.
But threads like this always pop up from time to time, and while they aren't particularly productive, they certainly aren't disruptive.


----------



## GKY (Oct 19, 2013)

Jiraiya is horribly overrated in this forum. Itachi is as well. So is Minato. And Nagato. Overall  speed is the most overrated thing on this forum.

Sasuke, Sasori, Hanzo, Danzo, Madara and Oro are underrated.


----------



## Panther (Oct 19, 2013)

Hashirama and Madara... People put them on a pedestal


----------



## Skilatry (Oct 19, 2013)

Overrated: Kakashi, Gai, Itachi (used to think Neji aswell but his fans have been very quiet ever since he died)

Underrated: Sannin (especially Tsunade)


----------



## Kai (Oct 19, 2013)

Kimimaro seems to also be overrated imo, although not actively.


----------



## The Breaker (Oct 21, 2013)

Sakura is forever overrated, and Rock Lee is forever underrated.


----------



## trance (Oct 21, 2013)

Tsunade is HUGELY overrated. Her regeneration doesn't make her immortal, she's not the Hulk, and she is slow compared to most around her level.

Speaking of which, Deidara is pretty underrated. I mean, he has some strong firepower for a mid tier. Ei is also fairly underrated. Next to only a handul others, the guy has the greatest speed in the series and pretty good offense and stamina.


----------



## blk (Oct 21, 2013)

Naruto is massively overrated by several members. There are people who claim that BM/BSM Naruto can win against other top-tiers with mid difficulty at most.
Or that SM Naruto is capable of taking easily on more than one mid-high Kage level opponent. Or that Base Naruto is on par with mid-high Kage level.
He is definetly, by far, the most overrated character as of now.

There are other characters that are occasionally overrated, like the sannin and Hiruzen.

Itachi is sometimes overrated and sometimes underrated; he seems to have a big fanbase and many haters at the same time.

Minato is underrated, people claim that he loses badly to characters like Hashirama and Madara but with his new feats (FTG feats + BM) he is up to their level.
Muu and Onoki seem to be occasionally underrated, several people underestimate Jinton.
Kakashi is definetly underrated, he can one-shot the majority of the high-top tiers, in the right circumstances, but several people always use the excuse of "it's not IC" for try to deny the fact that he is capable of defeating even the strongest characters.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 21, 2013)

Kakashi isn't under-rated, people just hate his kamui.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

> Says Naruto is overrated because some claim he defeats other Top-Tiers with medium difficulty.

> Says Kakashi is underrated because people don't think he can one shot Top-Tiers.


----------



## Batman4Life (Oct 21, 2013)

Sasuke is underrated 
Itachi is overrated


----------



## Turrin (Oct 21, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> Speaking of which, Deidara is pretty underrated.


Deidara is incredibly overrated. The dude was treated like absolute fodder in the war by Kishi and was allowed to be decimated by Omoi, Sai, and Kankuro. However despite this you'll see tons of people rating him as highly or higher than the Edo Kages or the most powerful of the Gokage who gotten infinitely more respect and better portrayal than Deidara. You'll also see people running around saying he was infinitely stronger than Hebi Sasuke if not for Raiton, despite the fact that Hebi Sasuke was about to defeat him in 2-seconds with a Shunshin Blitz and he was only saved by Tobi. Despite the fact that Hebi Sasuke stated even if Raiton didn't work to defuse Deidara's bombs he'd still have defeated Deidara with Kirin. Despite the fact that Hebi Sasuke was fighting to capture Deidara rather than kill him the entire fight

You see people praising or excusing Deidara for fighting with handicaps like being low on clay, missing an arm, not caring if people hit him as an Edo tensei, etc... when these are handicaps Deidara imposed on himself for no reason, except him being well dumb, and thus it being no onese fault but Deidara's.

Deidara literally gives Itachi a run for his money in terms of most overrated character among fans. Luckily Itachi-fans have people who seriously think he can slay glaticus keeping him as the most overrated character still, otherwise Deidara would over-take him considering the vast difference between how he's performed in the manga-cannon and how people expect him to perform or rank.


----------



## Kai (Oct 21, 2013)

Turrin, Deidara isn't really overrated as far as the subsection is concerned as a discernible whole ? it's sounds like you're voicing out because of your run ins with him in recent threads.

But he sure as hell isn't beating Onoki.


----------



## Vice (Oct 21, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It's not uncommon to see people claim that Gaara in the desert can handle Itachi and Sasuke at the same time.



Yeah, that's almost as ridiculous as the claims that Itachi could solo the Sannin or Gokage by himself, which I've seen claimed several times. Where are you on that one, chief? 



> People generally seem to assume Kabuto with Edo Tensei is top tier



Not seeing the problem.



> (and without it is still stronger than Itachi or Sasuke)



Well, the manga made that pretty clear.



> Muu>Itachi is not that uncommon, either.



Again, not seeing the problem here. Itachi's not a sensor. 



> There was a thread for it a while back. And even beating either of the brothers in one-on-one doesn't seem very likely if he couldn't handle an underprepared Deidara.



I'm sorry, was it Deidara that surprise attacked the sand or the other way around?



> Too many people seem to forget how much slower the desert sand is than his personal supply and just gawk at the size of the waves he can make.



What's not impressive about that? And again, how would Itachi counter it? He can't fly like Deidara.

But I see the problem here, you're still stuck on beginning of part 2 Gaara and have ignored any and all progress with the guy. 



> There's still that significant portion of the readership that treats Kabuto's power with Edo Tensei as equivalent to the sum of the powers of each Edo Tensei when they were alive and free, which is a fallacy of composition (and assumes that the Edo Tensei are in fact equivalent to their living counterparts).



No, most people assume that an undead army of edo which includes Itachi, Nagato and Madara would be pretty difficult for people to overcome.



> I disagree with Kabuto being stronger than Itachi, btw



Of course you do.



> I just think he had an overwhelming advantage based on intel and the no-killing handicap.



I guess that 2 on 1, immortal, non-MS drawback handicap that Kabuto had to overcome isn't that important. Never mind that Kabuto had a no-killing handicap as well.




Itachi is easily the most overrated character on these forums and anyone claiming otherwise is being willfully ignorant.


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 21, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Deidara is incredibly overrated.



The guy with a jutsu that you can't overcome unless you have a doujutsu AND raiton is overrated...

The same guy that escaped all of team Gai without arms and dodged Sasuke's surprise blitz is not overrated. He's hugely underrated when you see Tsunade tagging him from the ground, jumping and hitting an airborne Deidara.

But of course, this can be overrating Tsunade too.


----------



## blk (Oct 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> > Says Naruto is overrated because some claim he defeats other Top-Tiers with medium difficulty.
> 
> > Says Kakashi is underrated because people don't think he can one shot Top-Tiers.



You skipped "in the right circumstances".

What the hell has Naruto to do with Kakashi? Does he have Kamui?
Your wank knows no boundaries.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 22, 2013)

Kakashi can beat a top-tier if they're blind maybe. No, they can't use Ninjutsu! Yeah, then he can take it.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> The guy with a jutsu that you can't overcome unless you have a doujutsu AND raiton is overrated...
> .


Your literally saying only Sasuke can beat Deidara and than saying he's not overrated. Okay sure, sure.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Deidara is incredibly overrated. The dude was treated like absolute fodder in the war by Kishi and was allowed to be decimated by Omoi, Sai, and Kankuro. However despite this you'll see tons of people rating him as highly or higher than the Edo Kages or the most powerful of the Gokage who gotten infinitely more respect and better portrayal than Deidara. You'll also see people running around saying he was infinitely stronger than Hebi Sasuke if not for Raiton, despite the fact that Hebi Sasuke was about to defeat him in 2-seconds with a Shunshin Blitz and he was only saved by Tobi. Despite the fact that Hebi Sasuke stated even if Raiton didn't work to defuse Deidara's bombs he'd still have defeated Deidara with Kirin. Despite the fact that Hebi Sasuke was fighting to capture Deidara rather than kill him the entire fight
> 
> You see people praising or excusing Deidara for fighting with handicaps like being low on clay, missing an arm, not caring if people hit him as an Edo tensei, etc... when these are handicaps Deidara imposed on himself for no reason, except him being well dumb, and thus it being no onese fault but Deidara's.
> 
> Deidara literally gives Itachi a run for his money in terms of most overrated character among fans. Luckily Itachi-fans have people who seriously think he can slay glaticus keeping him as the most overrated character still, otherwise Deidara would over-take him considering the vast difference between how he's performed in the manga-cannon and how people expect him to perform or rank.



100% agreed. 

Gaara in the desert is also overrated, people think he's Invincible!Even though he lost
to Deidara in the desert, he hardly was able to seal non- serious Mizukage with the help of 
Onoki and an army! He also failed to overwhelm Mu even with the help of Onoki!


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 22, 2013)

*Overrated:*

1) Gaara (in the desert)
2) Kakuzu
3) Kisame
4) Ei 
5) Naruto (KCM)
6) Deidara
7) Sasori
8) Minato (BM)
9) Obito (Non-Juubi Jinchuriki)
10) Jiraiya

*Underrated:

* 1) Onoki
2) Tsunade
3) Naruto (all modes other than KCM)
4) Kakashi (w/o Kamui)
5) Gai
6) Mei
7) Kimimaro
8) Sakura
9) Mu
10) Killer Bee


----------



## Rocky (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Your literally saying only Sasuke can beat Deidara and than saying he's not overrated. Okay sure, sure.




And Nagato, Madara, & Obito.


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Your literally saying only Sasuke can beat Deidara and than saying he's not overrated. Okay sure, sure.



Don-t blame me. Kishi is  the one that gave him this super haxxed jutsu . 

And no, not only Sasuke. The Raikages should do it if they have their lighting armor activated, a sensor like Kabuto could do it by going underground. Itachi could do it with Susano'o, etc.

Deidara has hardly been paired with such guys in the battledome. And when he is, he loses much more times than not.

You are rampaging like a kid and say he's overrated because people believe he beats Onoki (only one guy ), the one with no knowledge of C4 and because it goes against your opinion, wich is quite sad from your part, because Deidara has a lot of chances of beating the old man. Especially with the feats he has displayed while alive.


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi can beat a top-tier if they're blind maybe. No, they can't use Ninjutsu! Yeah, then he can take it.



I know you're irritated by his post, but Kakashi can beat a top-tier if  Kishimoto is writing the manga, which he is, and it already happened too.



well that's if you consider Obito a top-tier, I suppose, which most people do.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 22, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> I know you're irritated by his post, but Kakashi can beat a top-tier if  Kishimoto is writing the manga, which he is, and it already happened too.
> 
> 
> 
> well that's if you consider Obito a top-tier, I suppose, which most people do.




Obito is only a top-tier with his Bijuu Paths. Without them, beating him depends on skillset. For example, he can dance around BM Naruto, but Base Minato can beat him.

Kakashi can beat Obito under the circumstances in the Manga, but not under "fresh" ones, where it took Naruto, Bee, Gai, and Kakashi to accomplish anything.


----------



## Alita (Oct 22, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> *Overrated:*
> 
> 1) Gaara (in the desert)
> 2) Kakuzu
> ...


Lol, please show me multiple examples of when kakuzu is overrated. He is by far one of the most underrated characters here.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Obito is only a top-tier with his Bijuu Paths. Without them, beating him depends on skillset. For example, he can dance around BM Naruto, but Base Minato can beat him.
> 
> Kakashi can beat Obito under the circumstances in the Manga, but not under "fresh" ones, where it took Naruto, Bee, Gai, and Kakashi to accomplish anything.



Obito was top tier w/o Bijuu mode he still trifled with BM Naruto, Bee, Gai, Kakashi w/o the Rinnegan the only person , Kakashi can't beat Obito under any circumstance within the manga, it shows just how strong Minato is rather than Obito being weak.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 22, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> *Overrated:*
> 
> 1) Gaara (in the desert)
> 2) Kakuzu
> ...




overrated 


1. He's just that Haxxx in the desert many shinobi can't best him but I haven't seen anything too outrageous to say he's overrated 

2. sometimes 

3. Yes

4. Yes

5. 50/50 sometimes he's overrated KCM vs Itachi, then sometimes he's overrated KCM vs 5 Gokage but that's understandable because his performance was so inconsistent 

6. Yes

7. Can be at times 

8. Hard to overrated him in most scenarios like Gaara he's just that powerful

9. No he's actually underrated 

10. He's neither underrated nor overreacted he's mostly rated properly on the forums

underrated 


1. Yes

2. Yes

3. probably a balance some overrate him , some underrated him he's just a polarizing  character on the forums 

4. I would say Overrated 

5. So underrated that he's overrated 

6. yes but it's hard to argue against her poor performance in the war

7. I'd say overrated especially in the Battledome

8. extremely

9. he's both at times

10. I'd say Bee is mostly overrated on the forums most put him above the Sannin


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

*HUGELY OVERRATED*
Itachi
Gai

*OVERRATED*
Kakashi
Katsuyu
Raikages
Onoki
Lee
Tsunade

*UNDERRATED* 
Naruto
Mu
Mei
Sasori
Chiyo
Sage Frogs
Danzo

*HUGELY UNDERRATED*
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Hiruzen Sarutobi (3rd Hokage)
Pain


----------



## Mangeykou Byakugan (Oct 22, 2013)

*Overrated*
Kabuto
Nagato
Deidara 
Kisame
Tobirama
Konan
Kakashi
Choji

*Underrated*
Sannin 
Minato
Orochimaru
Sasori
The Rookies( minus team 7)


----------



## tanman (Oct 22, 2013)

Oh. I forgot about the most overrated character: The Kyuubi.


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

tanman said:


> Oh. I forgot about the most overrated character: The Kyuubi.



Gotta be a badass to the nth degree to deal with the kyuubi, so how is it overrated?


----------



## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

I'll add that Ginkaku + Kinkaku are heavily underestimated. They defeated Tobirama and the manga has demonstrated how powerful Tobirama is. Yet Giinkaku + Kinkaku are often never considered anywhere even close to Tobirama's level. Also for more reasons why they are heavily underrated see this thread:


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I'll add that Ginkaku + Kinkaku are heavily underestimated. They defeated Tobirama and the manga has demonstrated how powerful Tobirama is. Yet Giinkaku + Kinkaku are often never considered anywhere even close to Tobirama's level. Also for more reasons why they are heavily underrated see this thread:



We don't know the circumstances of that, so it means next to nothing.


Really, the whole Kinkaku + Ginkaku thing was the worst part of the whole series.  
It was just all around bad.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> We don't know the circumstances of that, so it means next to nothing.
> .


They were said to have defeated Tobirama, so they must have done it by themselves at one-point. True we don't know the circumstances, so perhaps conditions of the match favored the brothers that time giving them an advantage. But that wouldn't be enough to justify a massive gap between them and Tobirama, Additionally:

1. Ei clearly considered them a greater threat than his father, even though he knew they lacked one of their most powerful treasures (Kusa Joheki) and were thus not at full power. 
2. Out of all the Edos around at that point Gin & Kin were given the most focus in terms of threat alongside Mu. 
3. Kishi had Gin and Kin require the biggest force of might to take down besides; Mu, Nagato, and Madara  

All of this also supports Gin/Kin being around that high level of strength occupied by Tobirama. 

In terms of abilities the thread I linked explains why Gin/Kin's abilities are extremely hax.



> Really, the whole Kinkaku + Ginkaku thing was the worst part of the whole series.
> It was just all around bad.


And this is the problem, Gin & Kin are hated by most fans of the manga and are therefore highly underestimated strength wise, despite the great deal of evidence suggesting the author wants us to see them as much more powerful than fans wish to believe.



Rocky said:


> And Nagato, Madara, & Obito.


Actually he said you need Raiton and a Dojutsu. Madara and Obito haven't displayed Raiton, so they are out. Nagato might count since he was said to have proficiency with all the elements, but you'd have to ask him.


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Well they were beaten by a jounin and some chunin.  
Just saying.

That pathetic performance, along with their hack items, easily trump that Tobirama story.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Oct 22, 2013)

*ffs..*

*Overrated*
Suigetsu
Minato
_Dosu_
Sakura
Kushina
Juugo
_Sharingan_Kakashi_

*Underrated*
_Mercenary_Kakuzu_
Sasori
Konan
Zetsu
Mifune 
Orochimaru
Kimimaro
Chiyo
Muu
Asuma
Sarutobi Hirunen
_Kiba_


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

What I want to know is why everyone thinks Gaara can't make his own sand after becoming Kage.  He did it as a kid, yet everyone ignores that fact!  They want to pretend he is less powerful outside the desert, yet he can bring the desert to him.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Well they were beaten by a jounin and some chunin.
> Just saying.
> That pathetic performance, , easily trump that Tobirama story.


They were defeated by the combined efforts of: Atsui, Samui, Darui, Kitsuchi, Choza, Alliance HQ, hundreds of fodder, Shikkamaru, Choji, Ino, and Mabui. The combined might of those shinobi could beat even most Kages. 

Also Gin&Kin only lost because their own 5th Treasure (Kusa Joheki) had fallen into the hands of the alliance, meaning Gin&Kin weren't at full power in that battle and if they were they would have won as the alliance would not have the Kusa Joheki to turn against the brothers. So Gin & Kin would have defeated the combined might of a Shinobi force that would defeat most Kages. 

Really all that does is strengthen the position that they are suppose to be seen as being incredibly strong.



> along with their hack items


How are they hack items? Even when up against three native Kumo's, one of which studied the history books (Samui), and thus should be the most knowledgable of the weapons tricks, all still got tricked and beaten by the weapons; Darui being saved by sheer luck. And Gin&Kin didn't even have their final and most deadly treasure, which makes the word game even more difficult to navigate.

Plus the author made them Rikudo-Sannin treasure tools, that should make it obvious that the author wants readers to see them as very hax'd/powerful.


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

A monkey would win if they had all 5 of those hacks items!

You answer to your name and you lose.
You get hit 1 time, say the wrong word, or don't say anything, and you lose.

I mean, how is that now hacks?
Not only is it hacks, but it is fucking lame as hell.  It should never have been part of the story!

Magic Pot, Magic Fan, bull shit!
All we need is some magic beans, and we can turn this into a shitty Ninja Dragonball remake.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> A monkey would win if they had all 5 of those hacks items!
> 
> You answer to your name and you lose.
> You get hit 1 time, say the wrong word, or don't say anything, and you lose.
> ...



Whether its lame or too op is really not the discussion here. Rather the strength of the two brothers is. You can believe they are shitty characters but that's no reason to deny their strength.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Oct 22, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> A monkey would win if they had all 5 of those hacks items!
> 
> You answer to your name and you lose.
> You get hit 1 time, say the wrong word, or don't say anything, and you lose.
> ...



 +reps man


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> They were defeated by the combined efforts of: Atsui, Samui, Darui, Kitsuchi, Choza, Alliance HQ, hundreds of fodder, Shikkamaru, Choji, Ino, and Mabui. The combined might of those shinobi could beat even most Kages.


um he never went up against all of those guys at the same time.  He fought those people in a gauntlet with the aid of his brother for Samui, Darui and Atsui, and he didn't even beat all of them before being sealed.  Many other kages are capable of fighting that force gauntlet style.

I'd say the best hype we'd give him for fighting that force would be that Gin is easily the strongest edo tensei that darui's division fought considering what is said *in this scan.*



Turrin said:


> Also Gin&Kin only lost because their own 5th Treasure (Kusa Joheki) had fallen into the hands of the alliance, meaning Gin&Kin weren't at full power in that battle and if they were they would have won as the alliance would not have the Kusa Joheki to turn against the brothers. So Gin & Kin would have defeated the combined might of a Shinobi force that would defeat most Kages.
> 
> Really all that does is strengthen the position that they are suppose to be seen as being incredibly strong.


They were suppose to be seen as being incredibly strong, but you put kages like Ei or Sandaime raikage in their same positions fighting gauntlet style and they murk the alliance just as bad or worse.  Same with itachi, trollkage, bee, yagura, Tobirama, and SM Jiraiya.  It gets even worse since Kin and Gin relied on their edo regeneration during the fight, had it not been for that they both would have been defeated a lot sooner.


----------



## Mangeykou Byakugan (Oct 22, 2013)

LOL at Kin/Gin being underrated: lmao

They both had the Holy Treasures and still couldn't even beat Darui


----------



## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> um he never went up against all of those guys at the same time.  He fought those people in a gauntlet
> .


They actually did go up against most of those guys at the same time. Samui and Atsui were the only ones removed by the end, but in their place the rest gained valuable intel.



> with the aid of his brother


I've been talking about the combined might of both brothers the whole time so no point mentioning that.



> for Samui, Darui and Atsui, and he didn't even beat all of them before being sealed.


Darui only survived due to dumb luck and the rest only prevailed by using the brothers own treasure against them



> Many other kages are capable of fighting that force gauntlet style.


Which Kages? I mean i'm sure most Kages could take out Samui and Atsui and advance to the point where the other alliance members get involved, but I don't see many triumphing over the combined might of Darui, Kitsuchi, Choza, Alliance HQ, hundreds of fodder, Shikkamaru, Choji, Ino, and Mabui, armed with the Kusa Joheki.  Also barring in mind to make things fair we'd also have to take away one of those Kages's strongest weapons, to make up for the fact that the brothers were lacking one of their strongest weapons; Kusa Joheki.



> They were suppose to be seen as being incredibly strong, but you put kages like Ei or Sandaime raikage in their same positions fighting gauntlet style and they murk the alliance just as bad or worse.


This is highly unlikely. Ei himself considered the two brothers a bigger threat than his father and from what we've seen Ei's father is stronger than Ei himself or at the very least equivalent. In both case i'm sure they'd get to the point where the rest of the alliance became involved, but they'd loose at that juncture, especially if one of there greatest weapons was taken away from them. 



> Same with itachi, trollkage, bee, yagura, Tobirama


These guys would probably do roughly as well as Gin & Kin Bros, maybe slightly less or slightly more depending on how they matched up in that scenario. 



> SM Jiraiya


Does he start in SM?



> It gets even worse since Kin and Gin relied on their edo regeneration during the fight, had it not been for that they both would have been defeated a lot sooner.


They never recieved a fatal injury during the fight that they needed Edo Regen for, especially considering they have internal Kyuubi chakra to heal them. Also one has to consider if they didn't have Edo Regen they probably would have acted different and may have used KN for defense much quicker. So it's hard to figure out how thing play out w/o Edo Regen.


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Whether its lame or too op is really not the discussion here. Rather the strength of the two brothers is. You can believe they are shitty characters but that's no reason to deny their strength.



Where is their strength?  I see hype, some OP items they exploited, and some fodder they took out with the kyuubi's chakra.  They couldn't even beat Darui, who is only an iota above fodder himself.



> Which Kages? I mean i'm sure most Kages could take out Samui and Atsui and advance to the point where the other alliance members get involved, but I don't see many triumphing over the combined might of Darui, Kitsuchi, Choza, Alliance HQ, hundreds of fodder, Shikkamaru, Choji, Ino, and Mabui, armed with the Kusa Joheki. Also barring in mind to make things fair we'd also have to take away one of those Kages's strongest weapons, to make up for the fact that the brothers were lacking one of their strongest weapons; Kusa Joheki.


Triumphant?  I think you forgot the part where they lost.

What was they hype with the 3rd Raikage.  
He held off like 10k shinobi for 3 days or something?

Yah, Kin/Gin who?


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 23, 2013)

Turrin said:


> They actually did go up against most of those guys at the same time. Samui and Atsui were the only ones removed by the end, but in their place the rest gained valuable intel.


No  they didn't.  
1st round: Gin + Kin vs Darui, Samui Atsui
second round:  Gin fought darui and fodders from the division, chouza only blocked one of his attacks and was never seen doing anything again
Then Gin fought Darui + tons of fodders + ino shika chou + Atsuchi and got sealed instantly.  So the force he faced in the third round of the gauntlet was >>>>>> him.



Turrin said:


> I've been talking about the combined might of both brothers the whole time so no point mentioning that.


I was wondering if you thought that, but okay.



Turrin said:


> Darui only survived due to dumb luck and the rest only prevailed by using the brothers own treasure against them


nope, you can't argue 'dumb luck' and using their treasures against them as you're basing their standing on hype, not feats.   



Turrin said:


> Which Kages? I mean i'm sure most Kages could take out Samui and Atsui and advance to the point where the other alliance members get involved, but I don't see many triumphing over the combined might of Darui, Kitsuchi, Choza, Alliance HQ, hundreds of fodder, Shikkamaru, Choji, Ino, and Mabui, armed with the Kusa Joheki.  Also barring in mind to make things fair we'd also have to take away one of those Kages's strongest weapons, to make up for the fact that the brothers were lacking one of their strongest weapons; Kusa Joheki.


Nope, brothers losing one of their strongest weapons is their fault, thus it's a handicap that was only accomplished because of their own power or lack of it.

Take chouza out of the picture because they never went up against him he blocked one attack and was gone to fight white zetsus or kakuzu, dan, asuma or hiashi's brother.  If you want to include chouza, you have to include those people in your argument.   Mabui only sent the item to them, so she's not in the battle.  



Turrin said:


> This is highly unlikely. Ei himself considered the two brothers a bigger threat than his father and from what we've seen Ei's father is stronger than Ei himself or at the very least equivalent.


It was the combined information of the past kages, his father and the Gin and Kin brothers appearing that made Ei think that he had to head out to the field personally.  And well, if you put Ei or his father in the same position as Gin and Kin, knowing both of their abilities, i'm guessing you'd agree that they win where the brothers failed.



Turrin said:


> These guys would probably do roughly as well as Gin & Kin Bros, maybe slightly less or slightly more depending on how they matched up in that scenario.


Not really.  All of these guys slaughter Darui atsui and Samui without losing half of their power or taking any heavy damage.  Bee and Yagura nuke the division, killing almost everyone.  they never find trollkage in the mist, they never hit tobirama before he decimates the majority of the division with his chain explosions.  These guys would also beat hundreds of fodders + Darui + Ino shika chou and Kitsuchi as well or at the very least not get fodderized 10 seconds into that battle.  In addition to that, to make things fair for gin and kin, you have to restrict the alliance from having knowledge on their abilities, the only thing they are allowed to have is lore or reputation.



Turrin said:


> Does he start in SM?


Sure



Turrin said:


> They never recieved a fatal injury during the fight that they needed Edo Regen for, especially considering they have internal Kyuubi chakra to heal them.
> Also one has to consider if they didn't have Edo Regen they probably would have acted different and may have used KN for defense much quicker. So it's hard to figure out how thing play out w/o Edo Regen.


This doesn't matter right?  Because saying this would have happened instead of that is a featwise argument.  You are arguing portrayal and ABCs, thus a kin or gin with edo regen > kin or gin without.  And i've never seen an argument for kurama's chakra repairing entire limbs of its jinchuriki.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> No  they didn't.
> 1st round: Gin + Kin vs Darui, Samui Atsui
> second round:  Gin fought darui and fodders from the division, chouza only blocked one of his attacks and was never seen doing anything again
> Then Gin fought Darui + tons of fodders + ino shika chou + Atsuchi and got sealed instantly.  So the force he faced in the third round of the gauntlet was >>>>>> him.


Your trying to separate the fighting into none existent rounds, which is not an appropriate way to look at how the fight played out. It's more appropriate to look at the fight in context of being primarily Darui's battle with the appropriate allies coming to Darui's aid when he needed them. Darui was the division commander and in contact with Alliance HQ, so both of these resources were at Darui's disposal. 

-Darui was given intel through Samui & Atsui
-Darui was given Choza & Fodder to distract Kinkaku long enough to get in touch with HQ
-Darui was given the aid of HQ to provide an effective strategy for him and send the approperiate reinforcements
-Darui was given the aid of Mabui to teleport the Kusa Joheki to him
-Darui was given the aid of Kitsuchi to step in and block Kinkaku's attack for him
-Darui was given the aid of hundreds of alliance fodder to distract Kinkaku
-Darui was as per HQ's plan given the aid of Ino-Shika-Cho to set Kinaku up to be sealed

So you can't say Kinkaku got sealed instantly, because everything that occurred in that battle was leading up to the culmination of that moment. And separating it into rounds is also not appropriate for the reason that each event in the battle built off the previous events, rather than happening in exclusive rounds.

With a different character the battle would have evolved in a different way. If a Kazekage were to appear, it would have been 2 totally different shinobi from Samui & Atsui that would have recognized that Kazekage and come to Darui's aid; providing Darui with intel on that Kazekage's abilities and how to counter them. Someone else from the division besides Choza may have step forward to distract the Kazekage, if the Kazekage used a different style of attack than Kinkaku. The alliance HQ would have developed a totally different strategy to handle the Kazekage, than they did Kinkaku, which would probably mean sending a totally different team of Ninja than Ino-Shika-Cho, and perhaps something different than Kusa Joheki. 

So if you wanted to style a gauntlet around what Gin&Kin faced it would be next to impossible to do so, because you'd have to format it as such

X-Character starts w/o one of his strongest abilities
Darui + 2 Alliance Shinobi that can provided knowledge on X character and how to counter X character's Jutsu
Y Characters will step in response to X  Characters attack to defend Darui until the strategy is in place
HQ will devise a strategy tailored specifically to X Character
HQ will send resources tailored specifically to countering X Character
X-Character than has to face whatever strat HQ and reinforcements &/or Tools HQ cooked up + Darui

Which is really difficult to figure out w/o knowing how Darui's Division and Alliance HQ would respond to X-Character.



> nope, you can't argue 'dumb luck' and using their treasures against them as you're basing their standing on hype, not feats.


I'm basing their standings on portrayal, which is both hype and feats. Given how the scenario played out we can expect that most people would have been done for in Darui's situation, but he got extremely lucky, even Darui himself acknowledges that he had no clue his favorite word was about to switch. 

Or if you don't like the idea of luck, than we could instead go with Darui being an ideal match up against the Word-Game Tools, since his most frequently used word was so narrowly separated from his second most frequently used word, making the probability of the two naturally switching before he was sealed much higher than the norm



> Nope, brothers losing one of their strongest weapons is their fault, thus it's a handicap that was only accomplished because of their own power or lack of it.


.
Honestly this is just completely silly. In the BD we usually refer to the strongest possible incarnation of characters, unless otherwise specified. This is the reason why when discussing Sasori, we discuss him as if he has all of his puppets. We don't count him less the puppets Chiyo and Sakura destroyed. 



> Take chouza out of the picture because they never went up against him he blocked one attack and was gone to fight white zetsus or kakuzu, dan, asuma or hiashi's brother. If you want to include chouza, you have to include those people in your argument. Mabui only sent the item to them, so she's not in the battle.


Blocking one attack was a valuable asset in the battle and so was Mabui sending the Amber Sealing Jar. I'm not going to discount very real aid.



> It was the combined information of the past kages, his father and the Gin and Kin brothers appearing that made Ei think that he had to head out to the field personally.


No it wasn't. It was specifically Gin & Kin:
*in this scan.*



> And well, if you put Ei or his father in the same position as Gin and Kin, knowing both of their abilities, i'm guessing you'd agree that they win where the brothers failed.


No I think Ei or his father would perform  worse than the brothers. 



> Not really. All of these guys slaughter Darui atsui and Samui without losing half of their power or taking any heavy damage. Bee and Yagura nuke the division, killing almost everyone. they never find trollkage in the mist, they never hit tobirama before he decimates the majority of the division with his chain explosions. These guys would also beat hundreds of fodders + Darui + Ino shika chou and Kitsuchi as well or at the very least not get fodderized 10 seconds into that battle. In addition to that, to make things fair for gin and kin, you have to restrict the alliance from having knowledge on their abilities, the only thing they are allowed to have is lore or reputation.


Your using an in-accurate way of judging the scenario.

For example if we put Killer B in the scenario, he should loose one of his best abilities like Gin & Kin bros did. So we'll take away Tailed Beast Bomb. 

Than we'd place B w/ no knowledge, up against Darui + 2 other shinobi who recognize B and give Darui knowledge of B's abilities. 

Given this B is likely to start in Base and i'm sure his CQC, would quickly overwhelm the other 2 Shinobi defeating them fairly quickly the same way the brothers defeated Samui and Atsui quickly. But now Darui will have a great deal of knowledge and with it I don't see him being so weak in CQC he'll fall to Base B that easily. B would probably pull out V1 or V2 at this point to seek to finish Darui. But when he tries to Shinobi from Darui's division will step in and block his attack and begin to distract him, which they should be able to accomplish for a little bit. HQ than comes up with the perfect strategy and people to enact said strategy to take down B, I think with the resources of 2 Divisions and tools like Kusa Joheki Mabui can transport they should be able to come up with a plan. At this point B might be done with whatever Division people were harassing him, but now in-comes reinforcements from a different division that save Darui's ass. And than the plan goes off , which again I think would be successful given the resources and brain power the HQ has behind it in this instance. 



> Sure


Well than your giving him a massive advantage, so sure he might be able to do roughly as well as Gin & Kin than.



> This doesn't matter right? Because saying this would have happened instead of that is a featwise argument. You are arguing portrayal and ABCs, thus a kin or gin with edo regen > kin or gin without. .


I have no clue what your trying to say here, but to me Portrayal includes feats.



> And i've never seen an argument for kurama's chakra repairing entire limbs of its jinchuriki


I never said it did. However I've never seen someone in the Naruto manga die from having their arm sliced off and the Kyuubi-chakra can heal the wound so they don't eventually bleed out.


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 23, 2013)

IWINBUTTON said:


> What was they hype with the 3rd Raikage.
> He held off like 10k shinobi for 3 days or something?
> 
> Yah, Kin/Gin who?



This is all you need to write dude.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 23, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Your trying to separate the fighting into none existent rounds, which is not an appropriate way to look at how the fight played out. It's more appropriate to look at the fight in context of being primarily Darui's battle with the appropriate allies coming to Darui's aid when he needed them. Darui was the division commander and in contact with Alliance HQ, so both of these resources were at Darui's disposal.


At the same time it's completely fallacious to say because gin and kin fought all these guys, then it's the equivalent of taking on all these guys at the same time.

Sure, so it's really Darui with bits of help from other shinobi who aren't really in the battle themselves.  Thus it's not Darui + all of those shinobi, it's darui + 1 action from a bunch of shinobi unless those shinobi were helping him fight the brothers throughout the entire length of the fight.



Turrin said:


> So you can't say Kinkaku got sealed instantly, because everything that occurred in that battle was leading up to the culmination of that moment. And separating it into rounds is also not appropriate for the reason that each event in the battle built off the previous events, rather than happening in exclusive rounds.


I can say Ginkaku got sealed instantly because like Darui he also gains information about his opponents as he fights them.  So no, it has to be seperated into rounds, it's completely dishonest to say what Gin faced was the equivalent of Darui, Chouza Kitsuchi, a huge batallion of fodders, the ino chika chou, samui, atsui, the HQ's intelligence and the amber sealing pot all at the same time.  

He took that as a gauntlet.  whether they gained information on him as a result of earlier rounds is irrelevant as they'd do that for the other kages as well since you have to assume that knowledge on the other kages is equal.



Turrin said:


> The alliance HQ would have developed a totally different strategy to handle the Kazekage, than they did Kinkaku, which would probably mean sending a totally different team of Ninja than Ino-Shika-Cho, and perhaps something different than Kusa Joheki.


Nope you can't claim any of this as you have no idea if any of that is true, nor would different shinobi fighting the kazekage be in anyway a genuine comparison to what Kin and Gin faced.



Turrin said:


> So if you wanted to style a gauntlet around what Gin&Kin faced it would be next to impossible to do so, because you'd have to format it as such


No it wouldn't it's perfectly genuine, you are putting them up against the same opponents.



Turrin said:


> X-Character starts w/o one of his strongest abilities
> Darui + 2 Alliance Shinobi that can provided knowledge on X character and how to counter X character's Jutsu
> Y Characters will step in response to X  Characters attack to defend Darui until the strategy is in place
> HQ will devise a strategy tailored specifically to X Character
> ...


none of this is true or necessary in order to judge how other shinobi's perform in the same situation.  All you do is equalize initial conditions such as who they are fighting, knowledge, mindset and distance.  By your logic, nothing can be concluded about any matchups in the manga as you don't know exactly what will happen if character A decides to fight instead of character B.  But of course, that's exactly why we have the battledome and thus it because a featwise matchup.



Turrin said:


> I'm basing their standings on portrayal, which is both hype and feats. Given how the scenario played out we can expect that most people would have been done for in Darui's situation, but he got extremely lucky, even Darui himself acknowledges that he had no clue his favorite word was about to switch.


portrayal isn't by feats, it's based on pure subjective hype that you might derive from feats.  By your own logic, it doesn't matter what happens in the matchup, only the raw outcomes since that's what kishi is trying to tell the readers.  "luck" can be part of a person's power that kishi is using to portray them at a certain level.



Turrin said:


> Or if you don't like the idea of luck, than we could instead go with Darui being an ideal match up against the Word-Game Tools, since his most frequently used word was so narrowly separated from his second most frequently used word, making the probability of the two naturally switching before he was sealed much higher than the norm


Doesn't matter if he's the ideal matchup, it's irrelevant as by your logic you don't analyze the abilities of shinobi vs shinobi only the raw outcomes.  If you want to analyze how darui stacks up to the brother's abilities, why not analyze how kages stack up to the brother's abilities as well? Why the double standard?
.


Turrin said:


> Honestly this is just completely silly. In the BD we usually refer to the strongest possible incarnation of characters, unless otherwise specified. This is the reason why when discussing Sasori, we discuss him as if he has all of his puppets. We don't count him less the puppets Chiyo and Sakura destroyed.


um, how does my post in anyway contradict Kin and Gin STARTING OUT as the strongest incarnation of themselves?  In a gauntlet or any matchup where people are jumping in to help, you don't automatically get restored to 100% unless it's stated, you fight the next match or continue fighting the new challengers as you are.  By your logic, if Sasori had to fight the division and lost hiruko and sandaime kazekage before ino shika chou arrived, he should be given those puppets back the moment they arrive, else they have an unfair advantage.  So no, it's perfectly equivacle to the kages starting at full power and any damage or information gained about them transfering to the next round.



Turrin said:


> Blocking one attack was a valuable asset in the battle and so was Mabui sending the Amber Sealing Jar. I'm not going to discount very real aid.


I'm not saying they didn't aid him, however you are massively extrapolating that aid to them actually fighting Ginkaku from start to finish of the entire match.  To make it even and have them perform one action to aid Darui and then nothing else.  And of course since you haven't addressed the logic of chouza also fighting the other enemies on the field, then if you want to include him in the contenders, you'd have to include the opponents he fought such as white zetsu or asuma, hiashi ect as aiding Gin.



Turrin said:


> No it wasn't. It was specifically Gin & Kin:
> [1]


Since none of this contradicts what I've just posted, then I'm guessing you concede that it was the culmination of all of the powerful edos with Kin and Gin being the thing that tipped Ei's decision to going to the battlefield and NOT simply Kin and Gin.



Turrin said:


> No I think Ei or his father would perform  worse than the brothers.


Well, put Ei or Sandaime against Darui, atsui and Samui, what do they do? Put him against the whole division that instantly sealed him Ginkaku and what happens?  How do they seal them?



Turrin said:


> Your using an in-accurate way of judging the scenario.
> 
> For example if we put Killer B in the scenario, he should loose one of his best abilities like Gin & Kin bros did. So we'll take away Tailed Beast Bomb.


Nope that's completely fallacious as Gin and Kin both start out the fight with all of their abilities, it's only after fighting with their own powers that they lose those abilities due to their opponent besting them which is the same thing as any negative thing that happens to Bee carrying over to the next round if he can't heal from it etc.



Turrin said:


> Than we'd place B w/ no knowledge, up against Darui + 2 other shinobi who recognize B and give Darui knowledge of B's abilities.


When was it stated that Kin and Gin had no knowledge?  They have general knowledge on kumo abilities and saw Darui use black panther, atsui use his katon attack.  And Darui + 2 other shinobi don't have complete knowledge on Bee's best abilities since Samui got sealed.  



Turrin said:


> *HQ than comes up with the perfect strategy and people to enact said strategy to take down B, I think with the resources of 2 Divisions and tools like Kusa Joheki Mabui can transport they should be able to come up with a plan.* At this point B might be done with whatever Division people were harassing him, but now in-comes reinforcements from a different division that save Darui's ass. And than the plan goes off , which again I think would be successful given the resources and brain power the HQ has behind it in this instance.


You see the bolded is not something that you can just say with no evidences.  You say that the division just magically has a perfect plan to defeat bee, yet nothing their best shinobi's have shown can plausibly accomplish it.   Make that same scenario for any shinobi no matter how powerful and the alliance always wins with their magical non-existent plan that they have the resource to pull off.



Turrin said:


> Well than your giving him a massive advantage, so sure he might be able to do roughly as well as Gin & Kin than.


Not really, Gin and Kin had plenty of time to do whatever preperations they needed for the fight before they arrived at the battlefield.  Jiraiya simply uses that time to prep his sage mode.



Turrin said:


> I have no clue what your trying to say here, but to me Portrayal includes feats.


portrayal can be based on feats, it doesn't encompass a feat-based argument.  



Turrin said:


> I never said it did. However I've never seen someone in the Naruto manga die from having their arm sliced off and the Kyuubi-chakra can heal the wound so they don't eventually bleed out.


well you implied it by saying 'kyuubi chakra' as your response to all of the injuries they received.  I didn't say they die from having their arm sliced off either, however their combat effectiveness will greatly diminish not only from having a severed limb but form the bloodloss.


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