# Base Itachi vs. Base Obito



## Nikushimi (Jul 21, 2014)

*Location:* Kamui Box Land
*Distance:* 5m
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Itachi is alive and healthy, with good eyesight.
-Obito has the Rinnegan in one eye, but it's pretty much only there for aesthetic purposes and so that he can use the black chakra rods; he can't use any of the paths in battle.
-Izanagi and Izanami are restricted.
-Mangekyou Sharingan is restricted.
-Gedo Mazo is restricted.
-Obito obviously doesn't have his Jinchuuriki Pain or else this thread would be retarded.
-Itachi has the Shisui crow, but Kotoamatsukami is dormant.
-I probably don't need to specify this, but this is Obito BEFORE he became the Juubi Jinchuuriki, here.

Kakashi kicked Obito's ass so what happens if Itachi fights him instead?


----------



## Cognitios (Jul 21, 2014)

Itachi is better in CQC than Obito.
His Katons are better in quality than Obito's
His Katons are better than Obito's subpar Moukton
In 5 meters Obito gets a face full of shuriken and kunai.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> *Location:* Kamui Box Land
> *Distance:* 5m
> *Knowledge:* Full
> *Mindset:* In-character
> ...



Itachi's katon counters his Mokuton, his suitons counter his katons. Itachi's clone game gonna be hard to beat seeing as he can clone feint sharingan users and sensors. Itachi's genjutsu is also portrayed to be better, as well as his ace in shisui's eye. 

Itachi should best him overall mid diff.


----------



## RedChidori (Jul 21, 2014)

Itachi soloes


----------



## Bonly (Jul 21, 2014)

Obito traps Itachi in a barrier and calls it a day


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

Itachi solo and Obito become his bitch


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Obito traps Itachi in a barrier and calls it a day



I was actually gonna suggest this as a way of Obito actually winning, but then I realized he'd just get clone feinted


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 21, 2014)

Kaenjin is a long-range Jutsu, anyway. ck


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

Itachi displays more skill with his base ability, but Obito is a durability beast. Itachi will be hard pressed to take down a man whose physical make up was able to casually stand back up off a Rasengan to the back and shoulder from Minato and Naruto respectively. Exploding clones won't be doing anything to him, but the principle of clone feinting should still get him good. Shuriken and kunai won't be making any cuts when Obito stopped a swing of Zabuza's sword with one hand, but they will be great diversions for Itachi.

Obito should be able to copy any of Itachi's Katons, but given Itachi's unmatched hand seal speed Obito won't beat him to the launch.

Despite Obito tanking attacks far beyond explosive clones, Katon, and shuriken/kunai, Itachi's greater skill with his jutsu and execution will reveal its lead as the fight progresses. High-Very high difficulty win for Itachi due to conserving his chakra for the right feints and finishing moves against an endurance and durable monster like Obito.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Kai said:


> > Exploding clones won't be doing anything to him,
> 
> 
> I disagree I see them being comparable to Diedara's C1, which will hurt Obito, not kill him or severely injure but not something he can just laugh off immediately.
> ...


----------



## Panther (Jul 21, 2014)

Itachi gets roasted by a Juubi sized katon


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I disagree I see them being comparable to Diedara's C1, which will hurt Obito, not kill him or severely injure but not something he can just laugh off immediately.


How? When Obito has been able to casually get up from Rasengan?

Explosive clones are nowhere near the destructive capacity of a Rasengan.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2014)

Kai said:


> Itachi displays more skill with his base ability, but Obito is a durability beast. Itachi will be hard pressed to take down a man whose physical make up was able to casually stand back up off a Rasengan to the back and shoulder from Minato and Naruto respectively. Exploding clones won't be doing anything to him, but the principle of clone feinting should still get him good. Shuriken and kunai won't be making any cuts when Obito stopped a swing of Zabuza's sword with one hand, but they will be great diversions for Itachi.
> 
> Obito should be able to copy any of Itachi's Katons, but given Itachi's unmatched hand seal speed Obito won't beat him to the launch.
> 
> Despite Obito tanking attacks far beyond explosive clones, Katon, and shuriken/kunai, Itachi's greater skill with his jutsu and execution will reveal its lead as the fight progresses. High-Very high difficulty win for Itachi due to conserving his chakra for the right feints and finishing moves against an endurance and durable monster like Obito.



I think exploding bunshin is underrated mostly because it didn't directly hit anyone and it was part 1. Scale its damage to part 2 and it'd get some shit done.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Kai said:


> How? When Obito has been able to casually get up from Rasengan?
> 
> Explosive clones are nowhere near the destructive capacity of a Rasengan.



Different jutsu dynamics. A huge explosion is different than a concentrated one. Once again it wouldn't do much but it's more than a scratch and an amazing distraction.

And Itachi can use crow clones in place of shadow clones for muc effective chakra usage.


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

Obito should be able to see the chakra gathering for an explosion with either dojutsu anyways. Exploding Bunshin wastes time in this regard and never seems to be a practical option for Itachi. Before all that energy gets built up it would be a regular clone feint, which is a lot more desirable for Itachi.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Evidence that he has to charge it? He wasn't trying to hurt Kurenai, so he waited for Kakashi to get them a safe distance.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2014)

Kai said:


> Obito should be able to see the chakra gathering for an explosion with either dojutsu anyways. Exploding Bunshin wastes time in this regard and doesn't seem like a practical option for Itachi. Before all that energy gets built up it would be a regular clone feint, which is a lot more desirable for Itachi.



I agree with that. That is probably how Kakashi was able to figure it out. I also think crow bunshin would accomplish more if Itachi's intention is to create an opening or a distraction. 

Exploding bunshin would only work against a dojutsu user/sensor if they are put in a position where they can't actually escape from it, or used in conjunction with something else.


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Evidence that he has to charge it? He wasn't trying to hurt Kurenai, so he waited for Kakashi to get them a safe distance.


What did Kakashi see and respond to, then?


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Kai said:


> What did Kakashi see and respond to, then?



I'm asking you as to why if Itachi really wanted them dead why he couldn't have exploded before Kakashi ran over to save Kurenai. Are you implying that there was a charge time and kakashi happened to make it over before it could possibly explode?


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 21, 2014)

Even if exploding clones could do more to Obito than knock the wind out of him (they can't), it's not like his feet are cemented to the floor or anything; if Kakashi was able to escape a direct hit back in part 1 while carrying Kurenai, Obito should be able to avoid the brunt of the attack as well.


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I'm asking you as to why if Itachi really wanted them dead why he couldn't have exploded before Kakashi ran over to save Kurenai. Are you implying that there was a charge time and kakashi happened to make it over before it could possibly explode?


Yes, because Kakashi clearly saw something about the clone and reacted to it.

What could Kakashi possibly have seen if chakra didn't need to be gathered for an explosion?


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Kai said:


> Yes, because Kakashi clearly saw something about the clone and reacted to it.
> 
> What could Kakashi possibly have seen if chakra didn't need to be gathered for an explosion?



-The clone was there for a while. Why did it only decide to explode after Kakashi exclaimed concern and jumped with Kurenai?

I'm not arguing the mechanics just that Itachi could do it much quicker than he did there.


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -The clone was there for a while. Why did it only decide to explode after Kakashi exclaimed concern and jumped with Kurenai?
> 
> I'm not arguing the mechanics just that Itachi could do it much quicker than he did there.


Kakashi saw something before the explosion happened. Meaning, there is evidence that a clone will explode before it explodes.

Which means the explosion was building up.


----------



## Confirmedlol (Jul 21, 2014)

If Itachi's exploding clones function anything like grenades, the proximity to the center of the explosion means a great deal. 20 feet away you may get knocked over and lose some hearing - 10 feet away you're probably incapacitated or lose a limb, 2 feet away you're a bloody pile of meat. 

Itachi could conceivably grab somone with his clone and then have it explode, especially if there are multiple of them. But even if he never actually did that, they're still road blocks that bar directions and limit possibilities. 

People tend to underrate jutsu that never end up causing death or significant damage, i.e. Amaterasu -- never realizing the reason these jutsu don't end up causing damage in the story is because they'd maim or kill the victims, and the story can't have that.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Kai said:


> Kakashi saw something before the explosion happened. Meaning, there is evidence that a clone will explode before it explodes.
> 
> Which means the explosion was building up.



Any clone can use jutsu, so how would one differentiate?

We don't know how Kakashi deciphered what he did you are speculating. It's far more likely Itachi could have exploded it at any time it was standing there in the minutes it was, but didn't until Kakashi was close enough


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

If Itachi could explode his clones at any time, how could Kakashi notice evidence leading to an explosion before the explosion happens?


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Kai said:


> If Itachi could explode his clones at any time, how could Kakashi notice evidence leading to an explosion before the explosion happens?



So you aren't even reading my post? Ok good to know.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

This conversation is like the Dante vs Buggy in the obd 

Explosive Clone doesn't chance the outcome: Itachi still win


----------



## Confirmedlol (Jul 21, 2014)

Because Itachi didn't actually want to kill them? It's not far-flung to guess that he purposefully delayed the explosion in order to give Kakashi time to escape. 

If what we see is what we get, Itachi's clones would also need to hold still while "charging up." And if that's the case, you're basically arguing that exploding clones are a largely ineffective jutsu and not worth considering against powerful opponents. A convenient argument for this kind of situation, but almost certainly not the case.

People get infatuated so much with ever-increasing power-levels that they forget a kunai to the throat means the end of your favorite character. It's far more likely that Itachi was going easy on his secret allies, instead of learning and using jutsu that is ineffective against anything but fodder.

And since we're arguing about what is likely and not what is factual, I'd say its quite likely that Obito's poor young ass gets reamed.


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> So you aren't even reading my post? Ok good to know.


I read what you said. You're telling me Itachi can choose when his clones explode in a spontaneous manner when Kakashi notices evidence leading to an explosion before it happens. Like, what? 

Based on that fact alone we can surmise the explosion is prepared through process.



			
				Confirmedlol said:
			
		

> you're basically arguing that exploding clones are a largely ineffective jutsu and not worth considering against powerful opponents. A convenient argument for this kind of situation, but almost certainly not the case.


Read the manga.

Itachi prefers clone feints over exploding clones. Exploding clones take time that clone feints do not waste.


----------



## Confirmedlol (Jul 21, 2014)

That whole fight had Itachi trying to save their lives, while making it look like he was trying to them them. Tipping off Kakashi is completely within the bounds of that theme.



> Itachi prefers clone feints over exploding clones. Exploding clones take time that clone feints do not waste.



Itachi prefers clone feints because 99% of the time he's fighting to end fighting, not to end someone's life.

Read the manga.


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

So in following up with that tip to Kakashi, where does putting Kakashi in a coma right after fit in with that theme?

Hey, I'm all for Itachi holding back based on his loyalties, but arguing over the jutsu mechanics of an exploding clone has nothing to do with those loyalties. Seriously guys 



			
				Confirmedlol said:
			
		

> Itachi prefers clone feints because 99% of the time he's fighting to end fighting, not to end someone's life.
> 
> Read the manga.


Itachi has used his *most powerful* techniques when still in the mindset of sparing someone's life.

Come on bro.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

Confirmedlol said:


> That whole fight had Itachi trying to save their lives, while making it look like he was trying to *them them*. Tipping off Kakashi is completely within the bounds of that theme.



Itachi gonna them them hard


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 21, 2014)

I'd generally side with Itachi here as the more skillful and overall versatile CQC fighter, but I have a hard time imagining a scenario where he could actually kill Obito, which is no small feat. This is the same guy who survived taking a Rasengan into the back by Minato; casually got up after taking a Rasengan into the shoulder by KCM Naruto; and took a FTG kunai slash from Minato after having a hole put into his chest by Kakashi.  Mere Katons and kunai slashes aren't doing Itachi much good here. Obito can match Itachi with superior Katons anyhow. 

Itachi's best bet in my estimation would be to try to catch Obito is a base Sharingan genjutsu, however realistically I don't see anything less than Tsukuyomi (restricted)  working on someone who's base genjutsu was able to control a Perfect Jinchūriki. The more likely outcome IMO is Obito keeps on his toes against Itachi's clone feint game while pressuring him with Katons, Mokuton, and the black rods. It would quickly turn into a game of attrition which Obito wins by default with his superior durability and charka reserves.


----------



## Confirmedlol (Jul 21, 2014)

Kai said:


> So in following up with that tip to Kakashi, where does putting Kakashi in a coma right after fit in with that theme?



Kakashi: "Why didn't he just kill me?"

That was the closest moment that Itachi came to being discovered, and ironically you use that as evidence for Itachi not sparing them.



> Hey, I'm all for Itachi holding back based on his loyalties, but arguing over the jutsu mechanics of an exploding clone has nothing to do with those loyalties. Seriously guys



Everything has something to do with that loyalty. The way he fought, spoke, acted, lived his life,  etc... It's far more likely he was going for easy and obvious, rather than exploding clones being fodder-level.



> Itachi has used his most powerful techniques when still in the mindset of sparing someone's life.



Only against Sasuke, and we know why that is. Everyone else gets fingered or katoned. 

The only other exception is Kakashi, which was because the battle was dragging on too long for Itachi to maintain his facade. He ramped it up to keep viability, but still managed to not kill anyone. Largely in part due to Might Guy showing up.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Kai said:


> So in following up with that tip to Kakashi, where does putting Kakashi in a coma right after fit in with that theme?
> 
> Hey, I'm all for Itachi holding back based on his loyalties, but arguing over the jutsu mechanics of an exploding clone has nothing to do with those loyalties. Seriously guys
> 
> ...



What don't you understand? Itachi chooses when to detonate them.
Itachi chose a time in which kakashi could react to and save kurenai, but still make it seem to Kisame, that he was trying to kill them.

Dropping Kakashi did make sense because it allowed Itachi to deal with him without killing him hence why both kakashi and kisame question why Kakashi is still alive.

you act like jutsu can't be amped or diluted based on the casters choice lol. Itachi could have had his clones go blitz killer bee speed and wipe Kurenai out in fron of Asuma but he didn't.
 Jiraiya showed us D rank moves can be used to solo strong opponents. 
For the last time I'm not arguing the mechanics just Itachi's ability to use the jutsu.

This isn't anything new either.

I don't even see it being anything big in this match why are you arguing this mundane point?


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

the amount of  is incredible :/


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

The Format said:


> Itachi's best bet in my estimation would be to try to catch Obito is a base Sharingan genjutsu, however realistically I don't see anything less than Tsukuyomi (restricted)  working on someone who's base genjutsu was able to control a Perfect Jinchūriki.



Kakashi stalemated him, while kakashi just a couple months earlier wouldn't dare face his genjutsu.


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> What don't you understand? Itachi chooses when to detonate them.
> Itachi chose a time in which kakashi could react to and save kurenai, but still make it seem to Kisame, that he was trying to kill them.


Kakashi could see that an explosion was coming, so no, Itachi can't make his clones simultaneously explode.

There is no reason for Kakashi to behave the way he did if he didn't see an explosion was coming.

There is a process before the explosion happens. Kakashi took preemptive measure. The writing is all on the wall. Your logic in favor for a simultaneous explosion is boggling 



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> I don't even see it being anything big in this match why are you arguing this mundane point?


You said an exploding clone would hurt Obito and isn't something he can laugh off. That sounded like a factor you wanted me to consider, to be honest.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Kakashi stalemated him, while kakashi just a couple months earlier wouldn't dare face his genjutsu.


Kakashi was weary of Tsukuyomi. Even back in Part I Kakashi felt safe engaging Itachi in a Sharingan vs. Sharingan duel (despite Itachi's reputation) until of course he got raped by Itachi's MS. 

Besides, Obito as we know tanked his fight with Kakashi in boxland. The genjutsu fight was a means of implanting the idea of stabbing Obito in the heart (lol) into Kakashi's head [1][2]. You're also probably underrating Kakashi's genjutsu defense here, but that's besides the point.


----------



## Confirmedlol (Jul 21, 2014)

> Kakashi could see that an explosion was coming, so no, Itachi can't make his clones simultaneously explode.



While it's reasonable to believe that Kakashi saw something unusual in the chakra of the exploding clone, we don't know what he saw. Did he see chakra building up? Did he see chakra already over critical mass? We don't know. 

All this truly means is that people with Sharingan can see chakra, but we already knew that. Perhaps the clone was already primed to explode, which is why Kakashi panicked.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 21, 2014)

Confirmedlol said:


> While it's reasonable to believe that Kakashi saw something unusual in the chakra of the exploding clone, *we don't know what he saw.* Did he see chakra building up? Did he see chakra already over critical mass? We don't know.
> 
> All this truly means is that people with Sharingan can see chakra, but we already knew that. Perhaps the clone was already primed to explode, which is why Kakashi panicked.



Does it really matter? Any sign as to an irregularity in the clone's chakra is going to be a big red flag. Even more so given that Obito will be fully aware of the dangers of Itach's clone feint game.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

The Format said:


> Kakashi was weary of Tsukuyomi. Even back in Part I Kakashi felt safe engaging Itachi in a Sharingan vs. Sharingan duel (despite Itachi's reputation) until of course he got raped by Itachi's MS.


Kakashi learned from that.

Kakashi clearly thought he needed Naruto to win, and clearly was not risking getting close to him.



> Besides, Obito as we know tanked his fight with Kakashi in boxland. The genjutsu fight was a means of implanting the idea of stabbing Obito in the heart (lol) into Kakashi's head [1][2].


I'll give you that he was throwing the fight, but it's speculation to say he was incepting him.



> You're also probably underrating Kakashi's genjutsu defense here, but that's besides the point.


Not at all. Itachi is the best sharingan user in the manga in terms of genjutsu (barring Shisui his mentor), Zetsu explained how sharingan use works, and kishi also seems to think that genjutsu level matters (read Tsukuyomi mechanics). Kakashi is not on Itachi genjutsu level. Hebi Sauce is > him in that category.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

Why does Explosive Clone matter? 
It's not like it's Base Itachi strongest jutsu
Itachi can just bunshin feint with Crow Bunshin which cost less chakra


----------



## Kai (Jul 21, 2014)

Confirmedlol said:


> While it's reasonable to believe that Kakashi saw something unusual in the chakra of the exploding clone, we don't know what he saw. Did he see chakra building up? Did he see chakra already over critical mass? We don't know.
> 
> All this truly means is that people with Sharingan can see chakra, but we already knew that. Perhaps the clone was already primed to explode, which is why Kakashi panicked.


What we don't know doesn't matter in regards to the argument at hand.

Kakashi saw something, which indicates the explosion is not simultaneous.


----------



## Confirmedlol (Jul 21, 2014)

The Format said:


> Does it really matter? Any sign as to an irregularity in the clone's chakra is going to be a big red flag. Even more so given that Obito will be fully aware of the dangers of Itach's clone feint game.



People are aware of my playstyles in sports and video games, and I still manage to win more than I lose. Awareness and ability to do something about it are two different things.

Plus, Sharingan drains chakra. And what if they're all irregular?



> What we don't know doesn't matter in regards to the argument at hand.
> 
> Kakashi saw something, which indicates the explosion is not simultaneous.



What we don't know is basically the fuel that keeps a thread like this going. 

Kakashi saw something, and that can possibly indicate the explosion isn't instant - that it requires a build-up. Or it can mean the chakra is unstable/very high the whole time, and he just noticed.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 21, 2014)

Ninjutsu is in Obito favor. He has katon, doton, suiton, and wood jutsu. Nothing Itachi does is going to do shit element wise. Destruction wise, Obito has Madara size Katons GG. Explosive clone ain't doing shit. They can't move as they are regular bunshin's not kage bunshins. He also took a RM Naruto rasengan to the face. And you can say he was wearing the mask but look at the water tower. The front had a little hole while the back was blown the fuck out, so he took ALL of that damage to the face and didn't even bleed.

Taijutsu is also in Obito's favor. Itachi's not faster, not strong enough to hurt him, and I would say less skill. Obito lost to Kakashi on purpose. He stopped bloodlusted Suigetsu's sword with his arm and wasn't even cut. Itachi can never hope to hurt him.

Genjutsu? Obito controlled a perfect jin for a long ass time. Itachi has shit on him.

Obito destroys 10/10 no dif.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Kakashi learned from that.


Learned from what? Not to engage Itachi in genjutsu when Tsukuyomi is a thing. I agree.



> Kakashi clearly thought he needed Naruto to win, and clearly was not risking getting close to him.


Kakashi wasn't expecting Itachi to show-up... and Naruto (and Sakura and Chiyo) was already with him. 



> I'll give you that he was throwing the fight, but it's speculation to say he was incepting him.


Incepting? 




> Not at all. Itachi is the best sharingan user in the manga in terms of genjutsu (barring Shisui his mentor), Zetsu explained how sharingan use works, and kishi also seems to think that genjutsu level matters (read Tsukuyomi mechanics). Kakashi is not on Itachi genjutsu level. Hebi Sauce is > him in that category.


Not necessarily disagreeing with what you're saying (I would dispute a particular point but you're probably already aware which one), but here as stipulated by the OP they are restricted to base Sharingan, which hurts Itachi a lot more in the genjutsu department than it does Obito. And Obito's base genjutsu just happens to be capable of controlling a Perfect-Jin, so. 



Confirmedlol said:


> People are aware of my playstyles in sports and video games, and I still manage to win more than I lose. Awareness and ability to do something about it are two different things.


What makes Obito incapable here of reacting?



> Plus, Sharingan drains chakra.


Tell Obito and his Kamui spam that 



> And what if they're all irregular?


Then he knows to be on high-alert.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2014)

It could be that ;

a) Itachi's bunshin was exploding with a similar mechanic to Deidara's : [2]
b) Kakashi was aware that Itachi could make his bunshins explode, considering they knew each other.

or both.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 21, 2014)

FLIPPERS said:


> ^When the lions sleep, the jackals prowl.
> 
> Back to your corner.



I got a job. I know you don't since you have time to make dupes, but the concept shouldn't be over your head.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 21, 2014)

FLIPPERS said:


> My whole point is that being aware of and attentive to a strategy doesn't always prevent it from happening. You're going around in circles.


Well yeah, this is true of pretty much anything. You're not providing an argument here so much as stating a general fact, one that cuts both ways.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 21, 2014)

Work at a furniture factory for 8 hours a day. I've been on this forum for 3 years so yes, I've been on more than you.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

Can we stay on tropic please?


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 21, 2014)

FLIPPERS said:


> So you have even less of a life than me. Good to know.



Yes, having a job is having no life compared to sitting on a forum making dupe accounts LOL.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

The Format said:


> Learned from what? Not to engage Itachi in genjutsu when Tsukuyomi is a thing. I agree.


That looking into Itachi's eyes directly will never be a good idea. He is like the one Uchiha in which Genjutsu is explictly stated. Kishi made it a habit to have his genjutsu be a threat in every fight despite his other godly abilities. No other Uchiha has this status. 

I also reckon two eyes > one eye.




> Kakashi wasn't expecting Itachi to show-up... and Naruto (and Sakura and Chiyo) was already with him.


He immediately got serious and pulled out his usual Itachi genjutsu hype, and used a clone feint to avoid his genjutsu and trap Itachi into a rasengan. 

Chiyo and sakura shat in a corner.



> Incepting?


The art of implanting an idea in someone's head. Term made popular by 21st century blockbuster starring Leonardo Dicaprio.





> Not necessarily disagreeing with what you're saying (I would dispute a particular point but you're probably already aware which one), but here as stipulated by the OP they are restricted to base Sharingan, which hurts Itachi a lot more in the genjutsu department than it does Obito. And Obito's base genjutsu just happens to be capable of controlling a Perfect-Jin, so.


Dispute that with Kishi, Itachi is clearly the best genjutsu user by author portrayal and moveset.




> What makes Obito incapable here of reacting?


Any MS user of sharingan is going to be able to troll anyone without MS if they get eye contact. But Itachi is clearly a genjutsu beast being > regular MS users (Sasuke who is a prodigy), and being the only one besides Shisui (who is the cannonical best genjutsu user in the Uchiha) to awaken a genjutsu MS ability.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> That looking into Itachi's eyes directly will never be a good idea. He is like the one Uchiha in which Genjutsu is explictly stated. Kishi made it a habit to have his genjutsu be a threat in every fight despite his other godly abilities. No other Uchiha has this status.
> 
> I also reckon two eyes > one eye.


That's not the implication that was given. Part I Kakashi thought he could hang with Itachi in a Sharingan vs. Sharingan duel despite his reputation. Literally the only thing that changed was then Kakashi got Tsukuyomi raped.  Hmm...

Can you provide these other godly genjutsu feats of Itachi's sans Tsukuyomi that don't include Early-mid Part II Naruto and non-Sharingan users? Anything that compares to controlling a Perfect-Jin?



> He immediately got serious and pulled out his usual Itachi genjutsu hype, and used a clone feint to avoid his genjutsu and trap Itachi into a rasengan.
> 
> Chiyo and sakura shat in a corner.


You originally stated he thought he needed Naruto to win. I pointed out that the scenario suggested nothing of the such. 

Anyway, read the panes in context. Kakashi hypes Itachi's genjutsu -> Chiyo points out there's no reason to be overwhelmed -> Kakashi's emphasized MS, _specifically _referencing Tsukuyomi. 



> The art of implanting an idea in someone's head. Term made popular by 21st century blockbuster starring Leonardo Dicaprio.


Ah, okay (never seen it). Well, I would give it more merit than mere speculation given that the imagines in the genjutsu directly reflect what Obito wanted to happen, but whatever.



> Dispute that with Kishi, Itachi is clearly the best genjutsu user by author portrayal and moveset.


So you've got nothing here... I see.



> Any MS user of sharingan is going to be able to troll anyone without MS if they get eye contact. But Itachi is clearly a genjutsu beast being > regular MS users (Sasuke who is a prodigy)


No offense man, but all I'm seeing is "Itachi is a genjutsu beast" with no examples of these beast feats sans Tsukuyomi.



> and being the only one besides Shisui (who is the cannonical best genjutsu user in the Uchiha) to awaken a genjutsu MS ability.


Not sure why you bothered mentioning this. Unless you can prove to me that Obito had an affinity for Jikūkan Ninjutsu and that is why he unlocked Kamui. Or Sasuke and Enton. Instead, it appears more likely to be the reverse: Itachi's and Shisui's genjutsu reputation largely stem from their powerful MS genjutsu. Shisui, in fact, is refereed to as the most "powerful" genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan, a distinction that leaves things open to interpretation.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 21, 2014)

Itachi has better CQC feats in base, however, Obito is a tank and that will be Itachi's main trouble in taking him down. But, I believe Itachi is crafty enough to edge out Obito, somehow in this conditions.


IchLiebe said:


> *I got a job.* I know you don't since you have time to make dupes, but the concept shouldn't be over your head.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

The Format said:


> That's not the implication that was given. Part I Kakashi thought he could hang with Itachi in a Sharingan vs. Sharingan duel despite his reputation. Literally the only thing that changed was then Kakashi got Tsukuyomi raped.  Hmm...


Not gonna argue this more I gave multiple points on it.



> Can you provide these other godly genjutsu feats of Itachi's sans Tsukuyomi that don't include Early-mid Part II Naruto and non-Sharingan users? Anything that compares to controlling a Perfect-Jin?


Layering Sasuke's in a genjutsu.
Slaying Oro as a 13 year old w/base genjutsu

We don't even know how good Yagura was at genjutsu resistance, sharingan hypnosis is something every 3 tomoe user gets. MS users get their genjutsu buffed. MS Sasuke would be capable of the same thing had he the nerve to wreck a country as such.

We know Oro has a perfect 5 and his a master researcher and still got pwned by him.

Once again you are forgetting author portrayal, I will gon in detail below.




> You originally stated he thought he needed Naruto to win. I pointed out that the scenario suggested nothing of the such.


He needed to distract Itachi and keep him immobile so Naruto (who was much closer, and had Kyuubi buff) could take him out. 



> Anyway, read the panes in context. Kakashi hypes Itachi's genjutsu -> Chiyo points out there's no reason to be overwhelmed -> Kakashi's emphasized MS, _specifically _referencing Tsukuyomi.


It goes more like 
Sharingan in general gets hype - chiyo agrees but states they are in a group , then Kakashi hypes Itachi for having a genjutsu that bypasses that. 




> So you've got nothing here... I see.


No you just ignored my whole argument and chose not to respond to certain points.
-every Uchiha is hyped for good genjutsu but Itachi is specifically showcased as the deadliest with it, and put on a pedastal, none of whom beside Shisui is comparable in respect to genjutsu.

Kishi has Genjutsu be Itachi's ace in every fight
-Soloed Kakashi
-Soloed diedara
-Soloed Orochimaru
-Layered Sasuke in genjutsu
-Genjutsu'd Bee

-Kishi called him a genjutsu master in the databook.
-Kishi had Danzo make a point of comparing MS Sasuke's genjutsu garbage in comparison to Itachi.




> No offense man, but all I'm seeing is "Itachi is a genjutsu beast" with no examples of these beast feats sans Tsukuyomi.


Author portrayal is apparently something you don't understand.




> Not sure why you bothered mentioning this. Unless you can prove to me that Obito had an affinity for Jikūkan Ninjutsu and that is why he unlocked Kamui.


It was his teachers calling card.

Danzo speech to Sasuke implies that had sasuke been better at genjutsu he too could fully control Tsukuyomi, indicating Itachi is indeed "as far above Sasuke as the earth is the sky". Sasuke being Ashura's incarnation. Even EMS sasuke couldn't fully use the technique. 



> Or Sasuke and Enton. Instead, it appears more likely to be the reverse: Itachi's and Shisui's genjutsu reputation largely stem from their powerful MS genjutsu. Shisui, in fact, is refereed to as the most "powerful" genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan, a distinction that leaves things open to interpretation.


-Zetsu clearly explains that sharingan is a tool that only is as good as the person casting. Itachi 's base sharingan was able to effect Bee more so than MS Sasuke's genjutsu. that should give you a hint at the disparity.

Obito does things all sharingan users can do (like all MS users being able to get Kyuubi).


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

Genjutsu is irrevelant since they aren't far away in genjutsu, so it isn't a big factor


----------



## Bloo (Jul 21, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> Genjutsu is irrevelant since they aren't far away in genjutsu, so it isn't a big factor


Itachi has much more impressive and much more numerous feats in genjutsu.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Itachi has much more impressive and much more numerous feats in genjutsu.



One impressive feat in genjutsu without Izanami and Tsukuyomi( both of which are restricted in this match up)?


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Layering Sasuke's in a genjutsu.


How could you possibly consider that a godly genjutsu feat for Itachi went Sasuke layered him in genjutsu as well which is what forced Itachi to cast a new layer upon Sasuke's to regain control?



> Slaying Oro as a 13 year old w/base genjutsu


A non-Sharingan user 



> We don't even know how good Yagura was at genjutsu resistance, sharingan hypnosis is something every 3 tomoe user gets. MS users get their genjutsu buffed.


He was a Perfect-Jin, Dr. White.



> MS Sasuke would be capable of the same thing had he the nerve to wreck a country as such.


Killer B says hi. 



> Once again you are forgetting author portrayal, I will gon in detail below.


I haven't forgotten about it; I'm just not taking it out of context like you are, is all.



> It goes more like
> Sharingan in general gets hype - chiyo agrees but states they are in a group , then Kakashi hypes Itachi for having a genjutsu that bypasses that.


Kakashi specifically refers to Itachi in his initial quote. After Chiyo chimes in he references MS, specifically Tsukuyomi.



> No you just ignored my whole argument and chose not to respond to certain points.


I haven't ignored a single thing. The problem is that you're taking Itachi's genjutsu hype out of context and then expect me to rebuttal something that is fallacious to begin with. 



> every Uchiha is hyped for good genjutsu but Itachi is specifically *showcased as the deadliest with it*, and put on a pedastal, none of whom beside Shisui is comparable in respect to genjutsu.


Via MS and Tsukuyomi. 



> Kishi has Genjutsu be Itachi's ace in every fight
> -Soloed Kakashi
> -Soloed diedara
> -Soloed Orochimaru
> ...


None of those are "godly genjutsu" feats. Look at the names you listed: all non-Sharingan users (so working at an inherent disadvantage), Sasuke (addressed above), and Bee, who broke out of it quickly thanks to the partner method.



> Author portrayal is apparently something you don't understand.


Context is apparently something you don't understand. 



> It was his teachers calling card.


How does this address what you quoted?



> *Danzo speech to Sasuke implies that had sasuke been better at genjutsu he too could fully control Tsukuyomi*, indicating Itachi is indeed "as far above Sasuke as the earth is the sky". Sasuke being Ashura's incarnation. Even EMS sasuke couldn't fully use the technique.


I don't want to say you're making shit up, but what am I supposed to make of this? Danzo doesn't say or imply anything about how if Sasuke had been more gifted in genjutsu he could have obtained Tsukuyomi-esque control. 




> -Zetsu clearly explains that sharingan is a tool that only is as good as the person casting. Itachi 's base sharingan was able to effect Bee more so than MS Sasuke's genjutsu. that should give you a hint at the disparity.


Bee broke out of both easily. Judging by the panels Bee actually breaks out of Itachi's illusion quicker.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Jul 21, 2014)

I too think Itachi is better in skills, but didn't Obito intentionally lose to get rid of the Cursed Seal? Doesn't make Kakashi's feat look good, and I don't really see what Itachi can do to compare with Raikiri.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 21, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> One impressive feat in genjutsu without Izanami and Tsukuyomi( both of which are restricted in this match up)?




Reflecting Kurenai's genjutsu, who is a highly ranked genjutsu specialist.
Trapping Orochimaru, who has a 5 in genjutsu, in a genjutsu instantly and automatically winning a battle against him.

To name a few.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Reflecting Kurenai's genjutsu, who is a highly ranked genjutsu specialist.
> Trapping Orochimaru, who has a 5 in genjutsu, in a genjutsu instantly and automatically winning a battle against him.
> 
> To name a few.



1) This feat is offpanel and we don't know if it require MS or not
2)Kurenai is almost featless anyways, and she didn't show any impressive feat
3) Early Part 2 Sasuke could do that to Oro as well, don't know how's that impressive


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 21, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Reflecting Kurenai's genjutsu, who is a highly ranked genjutsu specialist.
> Trapping Orochimaru, who has a 5 in genjutsu, in a genjutsu instantly and automatically winning a battle against him.
> 
> To name a few.



1. That's not a feat. People assumed it was him because of his skill. It's the same as when people said Tobi had to be Madara because it was the only choice that made sense. On both occasions they were wrong. It wasn't Madara who was Tobi, and there was no genjutsu.
2. Kurenai LOLOLOLOL. She had just become a jounin and broke the genjutsu.
3. The whole fight against Orochimaru was off panel. If he won that fight, Orochimaru would've been dead.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 21, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> 1. That's not a feat. People assumed it was him because of his skill. It's the same as when people said Tobi had to be Madara because it was the only choice that made sense. On both occasions they were wrong. It wasn't Madara who was Tobi, and there was no genjutsu.
> 2. Kurenai LOLOLOLOL. She had just become a jounin and broke the genjutsu.
> 3. The whole fight against Orochimaru was off panel. If he won that fight, Orochimaru would've been dead.


1. Even still, it's portrayal that puts Itachi above Obito in genjutsu.

2. Kurenai is a genjutsu specialist, and Itachi reflected it. I'm proud Kurenai can break her own genjutsu. Name another character that reversed someone's genjutsu on the original caster.

3. The whole fight was off panel? Is that why we watched, first-hand, Orochimaru getting caught in genjutsu? And Itachi is a pacifist and doesn't believe in killing unless it's in self-defense. He opts out to incapacitating his opponents. He won that fight. If you're going to argue that Itachi lost to Orochimaru, then there's no hope to have a sensible conversation with you.

I'm confused as to how people are actually trying to legitimately argue that Itachi's genjutsu is solely based on his mangekyou.


----------



## trance (Jul 22, 2014)

In base form, Obito has _much_ more stamina and raw power/brute strength but Itachi has more refined skill. Both are highly intelligent and tactical but Itachi is slightly more skilled in this aspect. Still, he can't outsmart Obito without at least some difficulty. 

I'd say it can go either way with me leaning towards Obito.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 22, 2014)

Bloo said:


> 1. Even still, it's portrayal that puts Itachi above Obito in genjutsu.



It's not really portrayal saying he can do it. They had no idea who it was and said Itachi's the one who they could think of that skillful. It's basically like hearing someone picked up 10000 pounds and thinking it was the hulk.



> 2. Kurenai is a genjutsu specialist, and Itachi reflected it. I'm proud Kurenai can break her own genjutsu. Name another character that reversed someone's genjutsu on the original caster.



Name another character who kept a perfect jin under genjutsu.



> 3. The whole fight was off panel? Is that why we watched, first-hand, Orochimaru getting caught in genjutsu? And Itachi is a pacifist and doesn't believe in killing unless it's in self-defense. He opts out to incapacitating his opponents. He won that fight. If you're going to argue that Itachi lost to Orochimaru, then there's no hope to have a sensible conversation with you.
> 
> I'm confused as to how people are actually trying to legitimately argue that Itachi's genjutsu is solely based on his mangekyou.



We never saw the end of that fight. If you think he just let Orochimaru walk then he's truly the biggest dumbfuck of a character there is. He caught him in genjutsu, cut his hand off and that was all we saw. Seeing as missing a limb amounts to about as much as talking a piss for Orochimaru we can safely say that genjutsu didn't amount to shit.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 22, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> It's not really portrayal saying he can do it. They had no idea who it was and said Itachi's the one who they could think of that skillful. It's basically like hearing someone picked up 10000 pounds and thinking it was the hulk.


How's it not portrayal? The author chose to portray Itachi to us, the readers, as being that skillful in genjutsu.


> Name another character who kept a perfect jin under genjutsu.


.

Also, there's a huge mystery behind Isobu. When he was captured, he was roaming free in nature. The explanation for this has yet to be revealed and many theorize that Yagura didn't physically have him sealed within him but was more of a spiritual host. Until you can solve that mystery, it's hard to use Yagura as an example of a perfect Jinchuuruki.



> We never saw the end of that fight. If you think he just let Orochimaru walk then he's truly the biggest dumbfuck of a character there is.


Like Hiruzen? Itachi had no reason to be threatened by Orochimaru. And again, he's a pacifist.


> He caught him in genjutsu, cut his hand off and that was all we saw. Seeing as missing a limb amounts to about as much as talking a piss for Orochimaru we can safely say that genjutsu didn't amount to shit.


This is like saying that we just saw Deidara getting caught in genjutsu against Itachi, but we didn't see the end of the battle.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jul 22, 2014)

Bloo said:


> .



Key word there is *kept*, son.



> Also, there's a huge mystery behind Isobu. *When he was captured, he was roaming free in nature.* The explanation for this has yet to be revealed and many theorize that Yagura didn't physically have him sealed within him but was more of a spiritual host. Until you can solve that mystery, it's hard to use Yagura as an example of a perfect Jinchuuruki.




I don't see how that remotely contradicts or undermines the fact that Yagura was a perfect Jinchuriki. 

Sure, there's a number of possible circumstances that could have led to the Third-Tails eventually escaping Yagura's body - such as Yagura being ambushed by an enemy, having his Tailed Beast ripped out into the open, but unless you provide some suggestive evidence that lends credence to your ridiculous, baseless theory, there's zero reason to doubt Danzo praising Yagura's control.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 22, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Key word there is *kept*, son.


Itachi was on autopilot and wasn't explicitly trying to keep him under his control. 

Itachi also wasn't using the Hypnosis effect of his sharingan genjutsu, but deception. Similar to how Sasuke defeated Danzo.

On a different note Bee was able to pretty much lolbreak out of Sasuke's MS illusion bind, but Hachibi couldn't express to Bee that he was in a genjutsu for multiple panels.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 22, 2014)

Bloo said:


> How's it not portrayal? The author chose to portray Itachi to us, the readers, as being that skillful in genjutsu.



Again. If you heard someone picked up 10,000 pounds, you'd be,"He must be the fucking Hulk." Because that's about the only person who'd make sense. Doesn't mean it was the Hulk or that even the Hulk did or could do it. You're a third party in a situation trying to come up with the only reasonable thing it could be. Here it went like this.

"How are they attacking our bases, did the enemy get through our lines."
"No, that's impossible we have sensors."
"It must be a genjutsu on our people from outside sensor range."
"Itachi?"
"It must be someone who has the skill of Itachi and even it for somebody like Itachi, it would be impossible to be that precise."

And this is when they knew Akatsuki was resurrected thanks to Deidara, Sasori, and Kakuzu and still said it was someone else. 



> .
> 
> Also, there's a huge mystery behind Isobu. When he was captured, he was roaming free in nature. The explanation for this has yet to be revealed and many theorize that Yagura didn't physically have him sealed within him but was more of a spiritual host. Until you can solve that mystery, it's hard to use Yagura as an example of a perfect Jinchuuruki.



Bee broke it before Itachi's thrown shuriken could cross less than 5m and he still had time to bring out all 7 swords, place them, and block all of them.

Yagura was the host. You're making some shit up that makes no sense. The jin died, the bijuu broke the seal and got out. That makes sense.



> Like Hiruzen? Itachi had no reason to be threatened by Orochimaru. And again, he's a pacifist.
> 
> This is like saying that we just saw Deidara getting caught in genjutsu against Itachi, but we didn't see the end of the battle.



Hiruzen did it because he couldn't bring himself to kill his student. Itachi had a threat to Konoha, Sasuke, and himself right in front of himself and did nothing. Itachi isn't a full on pacifist. He still killed and fought. He just didn't like it.

We saw the end of the fight. Deidara realized he lost and was completely defeated. He didn't have any fight in him. The end of the Orochimaru, Itachi was fucking smirking telling him,"your jutsu's won't work on me" while holding a kunai. That's not someone who then goes,"Well, had fun but I don't like to kill so just go." And then Orochimaru OOC,"OK!, see ya next time." This isn't Bugs Bunny. It's clear more happened than what we saw.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 22, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi was on autopilot and wasn't explicitly trying to keep him under his control.
> 
> Itachi also wasn't using the Hypnosis effect of his sharingan genjutsu, but deception. Similar to how Sasuke defeated Danzo.
> 
> On a different note Bee was able to pretty much lolbreak out of Sasuke's MS illusion bind, but Hachibi couldn't express to Bee that he was in a genjutsu for multiple panels.



Itachi's control was to put him in genjutsu and win at that moment.

Sasuke's MS hypnosis did jack shit to perfect jin Bee. Bee broke Itachi's badly, look above. Atleast Sasuke's actually did something.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 22, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi's control was to put him in genjutsu and win at that moment.
> 
> Sasuke's MS hypnosis did jack shit to perfect jin Bee. Bee broke Itachi's badly, look above. Atleast Sasuke's actually did something.



Didn't I tell you I wasn't responding to you anymore?

What the hell for Nostalgia's sake.

-He was on autopilot. Itachi uses genjutsu in his fights. Bee broke the random deceptive jutsu Itachi decided to use, and it did what it was suppossed to do Bee just broke it.

-MS sasuke binded him and escaped a kill shot momentarily, it was his arrogance to simply think he had won that cost him his torso shortly after.

-Itachi deceived Bee from the time Bee swung Sameheade all the way until the panel where the crow turns into a shuriken. Marginally longer than MS Sasuke's bind held.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

I'm surprised that this thread is still alive and here


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 22, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Didn't I tell you I wasn't responding to you anymore?



Do what you want. I just got better arguments, no need to get that butthurt.



> What the hell for Nostalgia's sake.
> 
> -He was on autopilot. Itachi uses genjutsu in his fights. Bee broke the random deceptive jutsu Itachi decided to use, and it did what it was suppossed to do Bee just broke it.



Autopilot=no holding back. Why you even made it sound like that is stupid.



> -MS sasuke binded him and escaped a kill shot momentarily, it was his arrogance to simply think he had won that cost him his torso shortly after.



Sasuke paralyzed him and got through and attack>>>>Itachi doing nothing.



> -Itachi deceived Bee from the time Bee swung Sameheade all the way until the panel where the crow turns into a shuriken. Marginally longer than MS Sasuke's bind held.



Here's the thing. Obito kept Yagura under genjutsu for a LONG ASS TIME. Yagura and the bijuu clearly knew as Yagura was doing some shit he wouldn't and didn't want to do. The second Bee knew he was in genjutsu, he broke it. Note that you can't break a genjutsu until you try to, and you won't try until you know. Obito's genjutsu is stronger than Itachi's, point blank.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 22, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Do what you want. I just got better arguments, no need to get that butthurt.


In your head maybe, but I wouldn't even take it that far.



> Autopilot=no holding back. Why you even made it sound like that is stupid.


No, Autopilot means no ability to strategize with usual mindset. People on autopilot are acting solely on reaction/vague commands by Kabuto like Attack. 




> Sasuke paralyzed him and got through and attack>>>>Itachi doing nothing.


You aren't even comparing the genjutsu potency, just the results. Sasuke was in a dire positon and used it to save his life, Itachi was on autopilot and gave him a generic jutsu glance. My point was that Itachi held him under significantly longer. Itachi also dodged an attack from Bee, by making him thing he grabbed the real Itachi with his tentacle.





> Here's the thing. Obito kept Yagura under genjutsu for a LONG ASS TIME. Yagura and the bijuu clearly knew as Yagura was doing some shit he wouldn't and didn't want to do. The second Bee knew he was in genjutsu, he broke it. Note that you can't break a genjutsu until you try to, and you won't try until you know. Obito's genjutsu is stronger than Itachi's, point blank.


-Obito wanted to do such a thing, and was living in the mist, Meaning he could literally just re hypontize him should he break out or just simply strengthen his hold over him.

Obito is not better.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 22, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> In your head maybe, but I wouldn't even take it that far.



You wouldn't even go that far? Makes it sound like we got even arguments or something.



> No, Autopilot means no ability to strategize with usual mindset. People on autopilot are acting solely on reaction/vague commands by Kabuto like Attack.



You're taking 3 lefts to go right. Autopilot means he can't hold back. It means if he uses a genjutsu, it is normal potency. 



> You aren't even comparing the genjutsu potency, just the results. Sasuke was in a dire positon and used it to save his life, Itachi was on autopilot and gave him a generic jutsu glance. My point was that Itachi held him under significantly longer. Itachi also dodged an attack from Bee, by making him thing he grabbed the real Itachi with his tentacle.



I am. Sasuke used an MS one compared to Itachi base. Both were broken easily but Sasuke got better results, not that it even matters. I just like pointing out Sasuke did better than Itachi. My point is Itachi cannot, by canon, hold his genjutsu back in potency in this instance. He can't.



> -Obito wanted to do such a thing, and was living in the mist, Meaning he could literally just re hypontize him should he break out or just simply strengthen his hold over him.
> 
> Obito is not better.



If you think he popped up to hypnotize him every time he broke it then your stupid. Yagura went and held meetings. He talked to people. No one even knew he was under genjutsu till Ao pointed it out at an unknown, but long, period of time. There's no way, did Obito just pop up infront of people, put him under genjutsu, and vamp? Because then people would clearly know some shit just transpired. He put him under and kept him there. Yagura never broke it.

I said stronger. Doesn't mean he's better than him at genjutsu. Just that his are way harder to break.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 22, 2014)

And I love how you people are making shit up on Yagura to discredit canon by throwing out there batshit crazy suggestions. But take any goddamn thing Itachi gets and runs a mile. It's absolutely fucking ridiculous. Look at my approach with Itachi genjutsu'ing outside sensor range. See how I'm using logic to say it's not a feat he gets. I'm not saying they mispronounced Izuna or something fucking stupid.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 22, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> You're taking 3 lefts to go right. Autopilot means he can't hold back. It means if he uses a genjutsu, it is normal potency.


Ok, and Itachi can control the potency of his genjutsu. Therefore bee broke an average genjutsu from the master Itachi. Had Itachi been able to strategize he could have layered it or even strengthened it but his body went with the punches and used a katon with it, and Bee used 7 swords to parry and counterattack. 





> I am. Sasuke used an MS one compared to Itachi base. Both were broken easily but Sasuke got better results, not that it even matters. I just like pointing out Sasuke did better than Itachi. My point is Itachi cannot, by canon, hold his genjutsu back in potency in this instance. He can't.


How did Sasuke get better results?
Sasuke used for a second one Bee whic caused him to go flying. Sasuke literally lands on the ground and as he goes to take a step gets mauled by Bee in the worst way.

Itachi caught Bee who didn't even know what the fuck was going, and not only dodged an attack from killer bee via genjutsu but caught him long enough to launch a counter attack, which Bee in base (Itachi without strategy to know he has to strengthen his genjutsu vs a perfect Jin) would have been soloed by.

Also you argument that "Itachi can't hold back" is only half true. Itachi can't use his regular consciousness to use his skillset to the max, it is just his body reacting via the skills and techniques he would normally use.

By your logic Itachi would have came in the front door spamming MS, also by your definiton Itachi should have used Tsukuyomi, seeing as that was his best genjutsu besides shisui's crow.





> If you think he popped up to hypnotize him every time he broke it then your stupid. Yagura went and held meetings. He talked to people. No one even knew he was under genjutsu till Ao pointed it out at an unknown, but long, period of time. There's no way, did Obito just pop up infront of people, put him under genjutsu, and vamp? Because then people would clearly know some shit just transpired. He put him under and kept him there. Yagura never broke it.


He was obviously spending time in the hidden mist. He was chilling in the kage tower with the mizukage when talking to Kisame. 

My point is Obito used the skill neccessary to control someone over a long period of time. Itachi was mid battle, and not even able to actively pick how to use his genjutsu. I don't understand how that argues against portrayal.

I already explaimed Obito being an MS user is gonna be phenomenal in genjutsu, especially after getting madara training. But Kishi time and time again has Itachi used genjutsu to overcome his opponents and showcased him with the best genjutsu for a reason. He and shisui are the best via author portrayal it isn't even funny. There is not one Itachi fight where Itachi doesn't actively use genjutsu and the opponent is legitimately3 threatened by it.



> I said stronger. Doesn't mean he's better than him at genjutsu. Just that his are way harder to break.


That makes no sense.
Genjutsu works on a skill basis. See Zetsu's analogy. the databook also states the only way to break Tsukuyomi is by having uchiha blood and being better than the one casting Tsukuyomi. This indicates that you need to be more skilled in genjutsu to break their genjutsu. See Kurenai vs Itachi.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> *And I love how you people are making shit up on Yagura to discredit canon by throwing out there batshit crazy suggestions. But take any goddamn thing Itachi gets and runs a mile.* It's absolutely fucking ridiculous. Look at my approach with Itachi genjutsu'ing outside sensor range. See how I'm using logic to say it's not a feat he gets. I'm not saying they mispronounced Izuna or something fucking stupid.



This is the problem in any discussion Itachi is heavily involved in. His feats and hype are played to the moon while feats, hype, etc. for the opposition are are downplayed as circumstantial and ambiguous. When you attempt to point out the double-standards the common response is something along the lines of, "dude, go argue with Kishi" or "nah, his hype and feats speaks for itself". It's one arduous exercise in circular reasoning. This thread provides some pretty clear examples.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Jul 22, 2014)

So as anyone who screams Prime Hiruzen and Sakura around. 

There are much more worse cases than Itachi, don't act like only Itachi should be bashed when you have no problem for total hyperbole and featless characters (lol Prime Hiruzen) or inventing fanfic baseless feats as facts (Punch away Amaterasu) which is quite a common trend nowadays.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 22, 2014)

The Format said:


> This is the problem in any discussion Itachi is heavily involved in. His feats and hype are played to the moon while feats, hype, etc. for the opposition are are downplayed as circumstantial and ambiguous. When you attempt to point out the double-standards the common response is something along the lines of, "dude, go argue with Kishi" or "nah, his hype and feats speaks for itself". It's one arduous exercise in circular reasoning. This thread provides some pretty clear examples.


I see it as being the opposite in this thread. Most of the Itachi fans in this thread agree that it would be a close battle, but Itachi having more feats in base makes them lean more towards him. Obito tends to always use his Mangekyou in any battle scenario. Thus, Itachi has shown more battle competency within his base arsenal. Obito has not. I don't see how that is unreasonable at all. The main argument taking place here is between IchLiebe, the biggest Itachi hater on the forum, and the Itachi fans regarding genjutsu. I can't remember who exactly said it first, but someone hinted at Obito being the better genjutsu user, or that they're at the same level. Itachi fans are simply saying there are more feats under Itachi's belt in genjutsu and overall hype in that area in general. Again, that's not unreasonable as Itachi fans should be allowed to be proud of his genjutsu proficiency.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 22, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Ok, and Itachi can control the potency of his genjutsu. Therefore bee broke an average genjutsu from the master Itachi. Had Itachi been able to strategize he could have layered it or even strengthened it but his body went with the punches and used a katon with it, and Bee used 7 swords to parry and counterattack.



Layering don't do shit. Sasuke broke 3(?) layers at once. And he didn't weaken it. I'm not saying it was full strength. It wasn't because it wasn't an MS genjutsu. But to say that it is a good enough feat to put him as good as Obito who kept and controlled Yagura under genjutsu is fucking STUPID. I'm just cutting the bullshit here. Itachi's feat AIN'T SHIT to Obito's. You can't say it is. You can't imply it is. You can list all of his base feats and they never compare to Obito's. Perfect jins have genjutsu immunity because they always have a partner to break it. Obito bypassed that, Itachi never has, has never been implied to be able to it, has never been portrayed to be able to do, has never even got something you can warp to make it look like it.  



> How did Sasuke get better results?
> Sasuke used for a second one Bee whic caused him to go flying. Sasuke literally lands on the ground and as he goes to take a step gets mauled by Bee in the worst way.
> 
> Itachi caught Bee who didn't even know what the fuck was going, and not only dodged an attack from killer bee via genjutsu but caught him long enough to launch a counter attack, which Bee in base (Itachi without strategy to know he has to strengthen his genjutsu vs a perfect Jin) would have been soloed by.
> ...




You bring up Itachi couldn't do this, couldn't do that. Sasuke's first MS use and it took him to his knees. What if he didn't get affected by it and chidori'd Bee. "This" and "that" is all good when you can make excuses for Itachi, but it goes for everyone. Sasuke was affected by MS, so he couldn't capitalize on his opening. Itachi "didn't want" to don't work as he was programmed to attack, and his opening still didn't work. 



> By your logic Itachi would have came in the front door spamming MS, also by your definiton Itachi should have used Tsukuyomi, seeing as that was his best genjutsu besides shisui's crow.



Not holding back=/=full power. Kakashi isn't holding back ever, does he start with Kamui? No.



> He was obviously spending time in the hidden mist. He was chilling in the kage tower with the mizukage when talking to Kisame.
> 
> My point is Obito used the skill neccessary to control someone over a long period of time. Itachi was mid battle, and not even able to actively pick how to use his genjutsu. I don't understand how that argues against portrayal.



My point is Itachi has never shown that skill, or been implied to have that skill. 



> I already explaimed Obito being an MS user is gonna be phenomenal in genjutsu, especially after getting madara training. But Kishi time and time again has Itachi used genjutsu to overcome his opponents and showcased him with the best genjutsu for a reason. He and shisui are the best via author portrayal it isn't even funny. There is not one Itachi fight where Itachi doesn't actively use genjutsu and the opponent is legitimately3 threatened by it.



Obito kept a perfect jin under genjutsu. Perfect jin by portrayal and hype have IMMUNITY from genjutsu. I'm not saying Itachi's isn't dangerous. I'm not saying it's weak. I'm not saying he can't do this or that. I'm saying that his feats do not match Obito's in BASE Genjutsu. They don't. You can't argue this.



> That makes no sense.
> Genjutsu works on a skill basis. See Zetsu's analogy. the databook also states the only way to break Tsukuyomi is by having uchiha blood and being better than the one casting Tsukuyomi. This indicates that you need to be more skilled in genjutsu to break their genjutsu. See Kurenai vs Itachi.



Skill only matters if it's a certain amount. His analogy was a person with a rock can beat a person with a shuriken. But if the rock hits 10/10 while the shuriken hit's 9/10 then the person with the shuriken wins 9 times while the person with the rock wins 1 time. And no you do not need to be as skilled in someone in genjutsu to break their genjutsu. Gai broke a genjutsu, he can't even use genjutsu.



Bloo said:


> I see it as being the opposite in this thread. Most of the Itachi fans in this thread agree that it would be a close battle, but Itachi having more feats in base makes them lean more towards him. Obito tends to always use his Mangekyou in any battle scenario. Thus, Itachi has shown more battle competency within his base arsenal. Obito has not. I don't see how that is unreasonable at all. The main argument taking place here is between IchLiebe, the biggest Itachi hater on the forum, and the Itachi fans regarding genjutsu. I can't remember who exactly said it first, but someone hinted at Obito being the better genjutsu user, or that they're at the same level. Itachi fans are simply saying there are more feats under Itachi's belt in genjutsu and overall hype in that area in general. Again, that's not unreasonable as Itachi fans should be allowed to be proud of his genjutsu proficiency.



I said Itachi doesn't have shit on Obito in genjutsu, and that's true. If this was MS Itachi then they would have something to argue. BUT their arguing that Itachi using genjutsu on Bee puts him as good as Obito who put Yagura under genjutsu. They are both perfect jins, who have immunity to genjutsu via partner method. The difference is Bee broke the genjutsu, while Yagura couldn't. That makes Obito better, plain and simple.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 22, 2014)

Obito wins.

If you think this guy can die, you're simply insane... even I gave up on him
he is fucking immortal, even if he wants to die, he does not.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> So as anyone who screams Prime Hiruzen and Sakura around.
> 
> There are much more worse cases than Itachi, don't act like only Itachi should be bashed when you have no problem for total hyperbole and featless characters (lol Prime Hiruzen) or inventing fanfic baseless feats as facts (Punch away Amaterasu) which is quite a common trend nowadays.


What about Prime Hiruzen? If you're referring to the 'Rank the Kages' thread that was based on a projection that Prime Hiruzen will be shown in the manga some time in the near future. BTW, Prime Hiruzen does have the hype to back up his standing. That thread is unlike this one (and many others) where combatants are directly fighting each other. In a thread pitting Hiruzen versus whoever I would never project based on what he might be capable of in his Prime because that would be irrelevant, unless of course the thread's author specifically had that kind of projection in mind. See the difference?  

I never said Sakura could punch the black flames away.



Bloo said:


> Most of the Itachi fans in this thread agree that it would be a close battle


Dude, really, check the first 5 or so posts after the OP. 



> but Itachi having more feats in base makes them lean more towards him. Obito tends to always use his Mangekyou in any battle scenario. Thus, Itachi has shown more battle competency within his base arsenal. Obito has not. I don't see how that is unreasonable at all. The main argument taking place here is between IchLiebe, the biggest Itachi hater on the forum, and the Itachi fans regarding genjutsu. I can't remember who exactly said it first, but someone hinted at Obito being the better genjutsu user, or that they're at the same level. Itachi fans are simply saying there are more feats under Itachi's belt in genjutsu and overall hype in that area in general. Again, that's not unreasonable as Itachi fans should be allowed to be proud of his genjutsu proficiency.


You're probably referring to me as originally I stated that nothing short of Tsukuyomi in Itachi's genjutsu arsenal would be viable against someone who's base Sharingan genjutsu controlled a Perfect-Jin. A perfectly reasonable conclusion I'd say. It then turned into a back and forth about how Itachi's hype and feats trump it. I explained that said feats and hype were being taken out of context, _particularly _as they pertain to Itachi sans his MS and Tsukuyomi. I literally provided two examples both regarding well respected shinobi (Kakashi and Chiyo) to demonstrate this point and it was, of course, brushed off. Now I see the strategy has changed from debating who's genjutsu is more potent is their base form, to trying to minimize Obito's feat of controlling a Perfect-Jin.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 23, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I said Itachi doesn't have shit on Obito in genjutsu, and that's true. If this was MS Itachi then they would have something to argue. BUT their arguing that Itachi using genjutsu on Bee puts him as good as Obito who put Yagura under genjutsu. They are both perfect jins, who have immunity to genjutsu via partner method. The difference is Bee broke the genjutsu, while Yagura couldn't. That makes Obito better, plain and simple.


When in the manga did imply, hint, or explicitly state that Obito used base sharingan genjutsu on Yagura? A genjutsu of that level is most likely a mangekyou genjutsu, similar to Koto Amatsukami. Please explain to me why it's a base genjutsu.

If you can't prove that, then that feat is moot because MS is restricted here.



The Format said:


> You're probably referring to me as originally I stated that nothing short of Tsukuyomi in Itachi's genjutsu arsenal would be viable against someone who's base Sharingan genjutsu controlled a Perfect-Jin.


Again, how do you guys know that Obito controlled Yagura with base sharingan genjutsu?


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 23, 2014)

Wtf is this thread

Obito stomps

Do we not read the manga...


----------



## Bloo (Jul 23, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Wtf is this thread
> 
> Obito stomps
> 
> Do we not read the manga...


Obito can't use Space-Time Ninjutsu and/or Rinnegan. That is practically his entire arsenal that is worth mentioning. How exactly is this a stomp for either combatant?


----------



## ShadowReaper (Jul 23, 2014)

Base Obito is trash, he gets wrecked in every single aspect.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 23, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Obito can't use Space-Time Ninjutsu and/or Rinnegan. That is practically his entire arsenal that is worth mentioning. How exactly is this a stomp for either combatant?



Itachi has literally nothing in base form thats even a potential threat to obito. Do not even bring up some basice genjutsu cause you will simply be ignored.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 23, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Itachi has literally nothing in base form thats even a potential threat to obito. Do not even bring up some basice genjutsu cause you will simply be ignored.


You still haven't answered my question. Itachi has actually fought in base, Obito has not. His entire fighting style revolves around his Mangekyou.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 23, 2014)

Bloo said:


> You still haven't answered my question. Itachi has actually fought in base, Obito has not. His entire fighting style revolves around his Mangekyou.



Obito has superior ninjutsu(Katons) 
Obito is increadibly more durable(tanked rasengans)
Obito has more chakra
Obito is superior in Taijutsu, speed, and strength
Obito can use the black rods as stated

Exploding clone going to take out Obito...hells no
Basic genjutsu....don't make me laugh

Unless another rock falls on obito, Itachi gets manhandled


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 23, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Obito has superior ninjutsu(Katons)
> Obito is increadibly more durable(tanked rasengans)
> Obito has more chakra
> Obito is superior in Taijutsu, speed, and strength
> ...



His katons are countered by Itachi's sutions.

He isn't superior in taijutsu or speed. If anything Itachi should be superior. 
If there is a strength difference, it should be negligable.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> His katons are countered by Itachi's sutions.
> 
> He isn't superior in taijutsu or speed. If anything Itachi should be superior.
> If there is a strength difference, it should be negligable.



Obito has Madara size katons. Itachi is not beating it with a suiton.

He went head to head against Minato in speed. His reactions BARELY failed. This is against the man who could throw a kunai up behind Ei's back from his waist and teleport to a tree, then teleport back to the kunai behind Ei's back again before Ei, who was using his max speed could do anything. I would give you even in taijutsu.

And the strength difference is huge. Obito has a kid is stronger than Itachi. As a grown man he would manhandle him physically.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 23, 2014)




----------



## StickaStick (Jul 23, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Again, how do you guys know that Obito controlled Yagura with base sharingan genjutsu?


Because we were shown such and Ao states it to be an illusion/genjutsu. IIRC he even goes as far to compare it to Koto.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 23, 2014)

The Format said:


> Because we were shown such and Ao states it to be an illusion/genjutsu. *IIRC he even goes as far to compare it to Koto*.


Which is Manegkyou genjutsu, not base sharingan genjutsu. Thank you for strengthening my argument.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 23, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Which is Manegkyou genjutsu, not base sharingan genjutsu. Thank you for strengthening my argument.



Uh, what? Ao basically compared the potency of a base Sharingan genjutsu that Obito used with the most OP genjutsu in the manga


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> His katons are countered by Itachi's sutions.
> 
> He isn't superior in taijutsu or speed. If anything Itachi should be superior.
> If there is a strength difference, it should be negligable.



As someone stated earlier. Itachi suitons will simply be overpowered by Obitos Katons. Two different leauges

Itachi is not on par taijutsu, speed or strength wise lol. Granted it's not a huge gap


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 24, 2014)

Itachi's definitely faster and more skilled in taijutsu, weapons, and jutsu execution. Obito has Hashirama's cells making him durable and giving him more chakra to pump into jutsu.​


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 24, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> As someone stated earlier. Itachi suitons will simply be overpowered by Obitos Katons. Two different leauges



Without Kamui or Juubi's chakra boost his katons should be no different than average Uchiha.



> Itachi is not on par taijutsu, speed or strength wise lol. Granted it's not a huge gap



Do you have any evidence for this ?



The Format said:


> Uh, what? Ao basically compared the potency of a base Sharingan genjutsu that Obito used with the most OP genjutsu in the manga




He never did such thing.

If Obito's base sharingan genjutsu was as power as Koto, don't you think he'd use it more often ?


----------



## Ersa (Jul 24, 2014)

Biggest problem for Itachi is Obito's natural tankiness and stamina, they're tied in intelligence and Itachi has him outgunned in every other area. Honestly could go either way.

Kakashi did jackshit that fight, it was an exhausted Obito compared to Kakashi who had just recharged with a Kurama cloak and Obito threw it as well.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Without Kamui or Juubi's chakra boost his katons should be no different than average Uchiha.



Kamui didn't make his katons bigger. It just made them spin. They didnn't get any chakra from the juubi. It was never stated, shown, or hinted at.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 24, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Biggest problem for Itachi is Obito's natural tankiness and stamina, they're tied in intelligence and Itachi has him outgunned in every other area. Honestly could go either way.


I agree with this post.


The Format said:


> Uh, what? Ao basically compared the potency of a base Sharingan genjutsu that Obito used with the most OP genjutsu in the manga


Panel?


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 24, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Panel?





Grimmjowsensei said:


> He never did such thing.


Link

Ao is basically saying, "if my right eye can see through the genjutsu Yagura was put under, it can see through this", referring to Danzo's attempt at manipulating  Mifune with Koto.



> If Obito's base sharingan genjutsu was as power as Koto


For clarification, I never said it was as powerful as Koto. Who knows exactly. However there is some merit as to a strong comparison.



> don't you think he'd use it more often ?


You mean like the litany of other examples of characters' powers being held back for the sake of plot. Shit, we just saw this again in the most recent chapter. It's become a running gap at this point.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 24, 2014)

The Format said:


> Link
> 
> Ao is basically saying, "if my right eye can see through the genjutsu Yagura was put under, it can see through this", referring to Danzo's attempt at manipulating  Mifune with Koto.


I know that the genjutsu controlling Yagura was likened to Koto. 
No one mentioned Obito's base sharingan's potency being on par with Koto's though, as the whole incident of controlling of Yagura was off paneled and was never explained.



> For clarification, I never said it was as powerful as Koto. Who knows exactly. However there is some merit as to a strong comparison.


I'd rather not comment on it without having any knowledge on the interraction between Yagura and Obito, but Obito has no on panel feats of utilizing such genjutsu during combat, so there is no reason for me to believe that his base sharingan genjutsu is as potent, or anywhere near Koto Amatsukami.
He might have approached Yagura and cast genjutsu on him outside combat. Anything would be speculation @ this point.
But we know for a fact that Obito can't just walk in and control a perfect jin, given he fought B and Naruto and never attempted such thing.




> You mean like the litany of other examples of characters' powers being held back for the sake of plot. Shit, we just saw this again in the most recent chapter. It's become a running gap at this point.


Thats not good enough of an excuse. If Obito's base sharingan genjutsu could accomplish what basically 10 year charge duration Koto could, it would be emphasized more often, or at least it would be hyped or mentioned in some way.
The fact that Obito never used genjutsu during combat, save on Konan who was fatally hurt and was restrained, I am inclined to believe that genjutsu was never his forte.



IchLiebe said:


> Kamui didn't make his katons bigger. It just made them spin. They didnn't get any chakra from the juubi. It was never stated, shown, or hinted at.



Yeah my bad. I thought he was linked to Juubi when he fired off that huge katon.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 24, 2014)

Just because he never did it doesn't mean he can't. We know for a fact that Yagura was a perfect jin. We know for a fact Obito genjutsu controlled her/him (forgot which) for a long period of time. Jiraiya never used yomi numa against Animal path, doesn't mean he can't use it as we know for a fact he's done it.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 24, 2014)

@Grimmjow

You seem to be under the impression that I'm suggesting Obito can walk into any room and put whoever he so desires into a Koto-esque genjutsu. I'm not (although he may or may not be able to canonically depending on one's interpretation). The specifics aren't well know, that's granted. However, what we do know is that Obito using base Sharingan genjutsu was able to control a Perfect-Jinchūriki for an extended period of time and that speaks volumes. Noticed how in my original post in this thread I didn't even suggest that Obito would genjutsu rape Itachi or anything of the sort. I asserted that knowing what we do we concerning the potency of the genjutsu he used on Yagura, we can come to the conclusion that at the very least anything short of Tsukuyomi likely isn't effecting Obito. If you accept that Obito is even capable of controlling a Perfect-Jin then his genjutsu defense must be very strong indeed. 

And sorry if I don't take seriously the excuse of lack of panel feats when it's been clearly established that certain characters get nefered otherwise the plot couldn't progress in the way Kishi wants it to. You don't seem to be arguing whether Obito actually did or didn't control a Perfect-Jin so I don't know why you're asking for panel feats anyway. I also can't help but wonder how this is questionable when ppl don't seem to bat an eye when asked if Itachi can control bijuu, despite zero panel feats to support it AND the added ambiguity concerning whether anyone with MS can do it or if MS merely grants the means and the secret must be learned, but I digress.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 24, 2014)

The Format said:


> Link
> 
> Ao is basically saying, "if my right eye can see through the genjutsu Yagura was put under, it can see through this", referring to Danzo's attempt at manipulating  Mifune with Koto.


Koto-Amatsukami is a Mangekyou technique. That fails to prove that Obito used base sharingan genjutsu on Yagura.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 24, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Koto-Amatsukami is a Mangekyou technique. That fails to prove that Obito used base sharingan genjutsu on Yagura.



Oh, I thought you were asking for the panel with Ao.

Here.

You can see the Masked-Man reveal himself with only his 3-tomoe activated with Yagura under his control.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 24, 2014)

The Format said:


> Oh, I thought you were asking for the panel with Ao.
> 
> Here.
> 
> You can see the Masked-Man reveal himself with only his 3-tomoe activated with Yagura under his control.


I still don't view that as proof. Kishimoto has hidden Mangekyou designs for plot purposes: Itachi had no mangekyou design until the end of Part I because Kishimoto wanted to save that design despite us watching Itachi use it. The reason that's important is because Obito having his mangekyou design would be a huge give-away to who Tobi was.

Even then, Yagura is already under the genjutsu and you don't have to keep your eyes in Mangekyou to continue the genjutsu. So, it still doesn't prove anything.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 24, 2014)

Bloo said:


> I still don't view that as proof. Kishimoto has hidden Mangekyou designs for plot purposes: Itachi had no mangekyou design until the end of Part I because Kishimoto wanted to save that design despite us watching Itachi use it. The reason that's important is because Obito having his mangekyou design would be a huge give-away to who Tobi was.


You can believe whatever you choose. However, it is canon and that trumps conjecture. 



> Even then, Yagura is already under the genjutsu and *you don't have to keep your eyes in Mangekyou to continue the genjutsu*. So, it still doesn't prove anything.


Scan? 

The logical thing I would imagine is if a MS genjutsu is applied, deactivating the Sharingan to a lower-rung would cancel the genjutsu. Unless you're suggesting that Obito genjutsu'd Yagura once (with his MS) and Sharingan control was no longer needed, in which case it really would be Koto-esque. The former seems more likely to me.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 24, 2014)

The Format said:


> You can believe whatever you choose. However, it is canon and that trumps conjecture.


That Obito used base sharingan genjutsu? Obito was not looking at Yagura in the eye, so why would he have to maintain it?


> Scan?


Your scan provided nothing as well. We didn't watch Obito cast the genjutsu on Yagura.



> The logical thing I would imagine is if a MS genjutsu is applied, deactivating the Sharingan to a lower-rung would cancel the genjutsu.


Scan?

Are you forgetting the fact that Obito controlled Yagura for a very long time, IIRC it was for a few years, now if you're suggesting that Obito stood behind Yagura for years on end or never deactivated his sharingan (Mangekyou or Base) for that duration of time, then we will never come to a consensus.


> Unless you're suggesting that Obito genjutsu'd Yagura once (with his MS) and Sharingan control was no longer needed, in which case it really would be Koto-esque. The former seems more likely to me.


The latter seems more likely to me. And it actually makes sense and we can both think of a genjutsu that does something like that. And that genjutsu is an MS technique.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 24, 2014)

I believe the former is more likely because, one, it wouldn't make sense because why would Obito be capable of using a technique exactly like Koto, unless he became so proficient with his Sharingan to the point where he could replicate MS specific abilities. That alone should kill the thought. Second, there are some key differences. One being that Obito appears to be directly influencing Yagura's actions as opposed to having given him one set command that guides everything else he did going forward. Obito even speaks for him at points. That implies an active, conscious type of control, in this case via his Sharingan. To apply an MS genjutsu and then deactivate his Sharingan to a lower-rung and it still hold seems illogical to me if we accept that a continuous kind of control was being applied. Chances are it's a unique kind of genjutsu that doesn't necessary rely on the strength of the Sharingan itself.

If you choose to disagree that cool, as I'm not too interested in continuing this discussion since it's gotten off track as I feel safe in my opinion that regardless anything short of Tsukuyomi in Itachi's genjutsu arsenal isn't harming Obito. And really he has no means of fatally harming him besides under the stipulated scenario.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 24, 2014)

The Format said:


> I believe the former is more likely because, one, it wouldn't make sense because why would Obito be capable of using a technique exactly like Koto, unless he became so proficient with his Sharingan to the point where he could replicate MS specific abilities. That alone should kill the thought. Second, there are some key differences. One being that Obito appears to be directly influencing Yagura's actions as opposed to having given him one set command that guides everything else he did going forward. Obito even speaks for him at points. That implies an active, conscious type of control, in this case via his Sharingan. To apply an MS genjutsu and then deactivate his Sharingan to a lower-rung and it still hold seems illogical to me if we accept that a continuous kind of control was being applied. Chances are it's a unique kind of genjutsu that doesn't necessary rely on the strength of the Sharingan itself.
> 
> If you choose to disagree that cool, as I'm not too interested in continuing this discussion since it's gotten off track as I feel safe in my opinion that regardless anything short of Tsukuyomi in Itachi's genjutsu arsenal isn't harming Obito. And really he has no means of fatally harming him besides under the stipulated scenario.


I respectfully disagree, but I would like to commend the fact that we had a thoughtful, civil disagreement. That rarely happens on this forum.

I do agree, that genjutsu isn't going to play too much of a factor. I don't think either of these two are going to do much of anything on the other in the form of genjutsu. They're both highly proficient in it.

And again, I agree, Obito will be a challenge to take out for Itachi (the main thing I can think of is a kunai to the neck), and that's why I see this going either way. The only issue is we've seen Base Itachi provide more feats and endure more battle scenarios and that's why I am giving him the win more times than not. But it'll be a close match and either could win.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 24, 2014)

The Format said:


> @Grimmjow
> 
> You seem to be under the impression that I'm suggesting Obito can walk into any room and put whoever he so desires into a Koto-esque genjutsu.


Yes, I thought thats what you were implying.



> I'm not (although he may or may not be able to canonically depending on one's interpretation).


I don't think it is open to interpretation. Obito fought numerous people on numerous occasions, 2 of them being against 2 perfect jins and he never even attempted to use genjutsu.
I am not sure how one can claim that he can just whip out a Koto level genjutsu from his base sharingan and control anyone he wants like a Koto user would. 
That sounds a bit ridicilous don't you think ? 



> The specifics aren't well know, that's granted. However, what we do know is that Obito using base Sharingan genjutsu was able to control a Perfect-Jinchūriki for an extended period of time and that speaks volumes.


We actually don't know whether it was base sharingan genjutsu or not. We also don't know under what circumstances he used that genjutsu. We are completely left in the dark regarding that incident. 



> Noticed how in my original post in this thread I didn't even suggest that Obito would genjutsu rape Itachi or anything of the sort. I asserted that knowing what we do we concerning the potency of the genjutsu he used on Yagura, we can come to the conclusion that at the very least anything short of Tsukuyomi likely isn't effecting Obito. If you accept that Obito is even capable of controlling a Perfect-Jin then his genjutsu defense must be very strong indeed.


I also don't think genjutsu would effect Obito. However, thats not what we are debating here. I am just against that notion that Obito's base genjutsu is as potent as Koto Amatsukami.



> And sorry if I don't take seriously the excuse of lack of panel feats when it's been clearly established that certain characters get nefered otherwise the plot couldn't progress in the way Kishi wants it to. You don't seem to be arguing whether Obito actually did or didn't control a Perfect-Jin so I don't know why you're asking for panel feats anyway. I also can't help but wonder how this is questionable when ppl don't seem to bat an eye when asked if Itachi can control bijuu, despite zero panel feats to support it AND the added ambiguity concerning whether anyone with MS can do it or if MS merely grants the means and the secret must be learned, but I digress.



Then you are basically admitting that Obito's 3 tomoe sharingan was shown instead of his MS because had Kishimoto shown his MS then we'd notice how identical it is to Kakashi's and immediately know that he is Obito.
See, the "plot excuse" works both ways.



IchLiebe said:


> Just because he never did it doesn't mean he can't. We know for a fact that Yagura was a perfect jin. We know for a fact Obito genjutsu controlled her/him (forgot which) for a long period of time. Jiraiya never used yomi numa against Animal path, doesn't mean he can't use it as we know for a fact he's done it.



He controlled a perfect Jin with an unknown genjutsu under unknown circumstances.

He fought 2 perfect jins and didn't even attempt to use genjutsu on panel.

Also Jiraiya used Yomi numa in every battle he was in.  He didn't use it against animal realm, but he used it on human realm in the same battle.

Some jutsu are circumstantial. Characters don't use them unless they deem fit. But not using genjutsu in combat at all(and Obito fought many times on panel) is pretty much 100% proof that genjutsu isn't his forte, in other words his genjutsu isn't strong enough to do shit to the opponents he faced so far.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 24, 2014)

Obito is the same guy who could have lolwarped Naruto, who was in a fettle position, during the Kage Summit but choose not to for no particular reason and should theoretically be able to stick his arm in your chest and crush your organs. And you can't believe that Kishi would decide not to have him employ the genjutsu he used on Yagura in ideal situations? That's all I'm saying. Anyway, I never said he was going to actively use it on Itachi and have never suggested he would under any scenarios presented in the BD, merely that it reflects strongly on his genjutsu defense.  For everything else you can read my responses to Bloo. Although I imagine we'll still disagree so w/e.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2014)

The Format said:


> Obito is the same guy who could have lolwarped Naruto, who was in a fettle position, during the Kage Summit but choose not to for no particular reason


That was off combat. Characters don't ambush each other with their strongest jutsu, that is something else entirely.


> and should theoretically be able to stick his arm in your chest and crush your organs.


How is he going to do that ? 



> And you can't believe that Kishi would decide not to have him employ the genjutsu he used on Yagura in ideal situations?


Yes. "lol plot" isn't an excuse here. 
Obito fought many times on panel and used genjutsu during combat once, and that was against Kakashi, and his genjutsu did jackshit.
If you count konan, thats 2. But then she was already dying and restrained by Obito. That alone tells me that his genjutsu ain't anything special.



> That's all I'm saying. Anyway, I never said he was going to actively use it on Itachi and have never suggested he would under any scenarios presented in the BD, merely that it reflects strongly on his genjutsu defense.  For everything else you can read my responses to Bloo. Although I imagine we'll still disagree so w/e.


Obito has the sharingan, so he can see through visual genjutsu easily. He doesn't need anything else.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 25, 2014)

What the hell are we arguing? If you don't think Itachi can do anything to Obito genjutsu wise, then this whole damn thing has been pointless. I don't recall anyone saying Obito would even attempt genjutsu on him.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> What the hell are we arguing? If you don't think Itachi can do anything to Obito genjutsu wise, then this whole damn thing has been pointless. I don't recall anyone saying Obito would even attempt genjutsu on him.



I was just arguing about Obito's genjutsu potency, not this match up in particular.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 25, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> What the hell are we arguing? If you don't think Itachi can do anything to Obito genjutsu wise, then this whole damn thing has been pointless. I don't recall anyone saying Obito would even attempt genjutsu on him.


There were contentions being made that Obito's base genjutsu proficiency is greater than that of Itachi's. There was cross-examination on that aspect of the discussion.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I was just arguing about Obito's genjutsu potency, not this match up in particular.



Can't really argue it but whatever.



Bloo said:


> There were contentions being made that Obito's base genjutsu proficiency is greater than that of Itachi's. There was cross-examination on that aspect of the discussion.



Obito genjutsu'd a perfect jin. Arguing that it was MS is baseless. It was never stated, shown, or hinted at. When we saw Obito, he had his base sharingan active. We don't have to prove Obito used base genjutsu. You have to prove he used MS because you have the burden of proof.



			
				wikipedia:legal burden of proof said:
			
		

> The burden of proof is often associated with the Latin maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the best translation of which seems to be: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."[1]
> 
> He who does not carry the burden of proof carries the benefit of assumption, meaning he needs no evidence to support his claim. Fulfilling the burden of proof effectively captures the benefit of assumption, passing the burden of proof off to another party.



We said Obito used genjutsu of a perfect jin. We proved he did. You then said,"prove it wasn't MS." And we don't, you have to prove it was MS, as you laid the charges.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 25, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> We said Obito used genjutsu of a perfect jin. We proved he did. You then said,"prove it wasn't MS." And we don't, you have to prove it was MS, as you laid the charges.


So, if I made the contention first, then I would have won that argument? I'm sorry, but you didn't irrefutably prove your side, I didn't irrefutably prove my side. It's subjective. There's no way to prove this subjective topic in an arbitrary fashion.

And you state that this discussion on genjutsu has no factor on the battle and question why we were having it, and then you rekindle that discussion once more? I have my opinion, you have yours. Run along.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 25, 2014)

Bloo said:


> So, if I made the contention first, then I would have won that argument? I'm sorry, but you didn't irrefutably prove your side, I didn't irrefutably prove my side. It's subjective. There's no way to prove this subjective topic in an arbitrary fashion.



No. You said that it was MS and then asked for scans to prove it wasn't. You can't do that. That's like people believing in God saying he exist and then say,"prove he doesn't." They have the burden of proof. In this case, you do. We said he used Genjutsu and proved it. ABSOLUTELY 100%, he genjutsu'd perfect jin Yagura. There was nothing indicating he used MS, nothing hinted at it. YOU THREW IT OUT THERE, SO YOU HAVE TO PROVE IT.



> And you state that this discussion on genjutsu has no factor on the battle and question why we were having it, and then you rekindle that discussion once more? I have my opinion, you have yours. Run along.



I think it was a waste of time. Why were people arguing that Obito used genjutsu of a perfect (when there's proof from multiple sources) like it determined the battle when it never did to them? It's like saying a pitcher is really good and strikes out everyone, and then someone coming in and saying,"this batter is amazing," and then people arguing how good both of them are, and then the people talking about the batter go,"well we think the batter would get struck out too, we were just saying." Like you were trolling us or something. 

That doesn't mean I'm not going to show you, you're wrong. I know you and format were arguing about whether it was MS or not, and you respectfully disagreed. I'm showing you that it's not over because he can't prove it wasn't. I'm showing you it's over because you can't prove it was. As far as we know it was base genjutsu. That's the assumption, the charge is that it was MS and the charge has to be proven.


----------



## Bloo (Jul 25, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> No. You said that it was MS and then asked for scans to prove it wasn't. You can't do that. That's like people believing in God saying he exist and then say,"prove he doesn't." They have the burden of proof. In this case, you do. *We said he used Genjutsu and proved it. ABSOLUTELY 100%, he genjutsu'd perfect jin Yagura*.


Yes, he genjutsu'd a perfect jinchuuruki. However, to state that it was base sharingan genjutsu means that you have the burden of proof because it isn't heavily evident in the manga. I was simply stating that it's power was more akin to that of Manegkyou Genjutsu, and I likened it to a well-known MS genjutsu of a similar nature. That was my argument. There is nothing wrong or invalid about that argument. That's why I said we should dismiss that as a feat, since we can't prove it was accomplished outside of that.


> There was nothing indicating he used MS, nothing hinted at it. YOU THREW IT OUT THERE, SO YOU HAVE TO PROVE IT.


There was nothing saying he accomplished it with base sharingan. That was the original contention, therefore that has to be proven. Which it isn't because this is a very subjective topic with little evidence for either side. Feats with little evidence behind how they're accomplished, especially in a fight with specific restrictions, means that that feat should not be acknowledged in the context of this debate.



> That doesn't mean I'm not going to show you, you're wrong. I know you and format were arguing about whether it was MS or not, and you respectfully disagreed. I'm showing you that it's not over because he can't prove it wasn't. I'm showing you it's over because you can't prove it was. *As far as we know it was base genjutsu.* That's the assumption, the charge is that it was MS and the charge has to be proven.


Your logic is so backwards and illogical. It's pretty much "I'm assuming that it's base sharingan, therefore anything else has to be proven but my contention doesn't." That's not how rhetoric works. You can hold onto your unrelated philosophy of proof, I will hold onto logic. Please don't respond to continue this debate. Because, as much as you'd like to think otherwise, you're not proving anything. You're simply stating your opinion as if it's fact (like you always do).


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 25, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Yes, he genjutsu'd a perfect jinchuuruki. However, to state that it was base sharingan genjutsu means that you have the burden of proof because it isn't heavily evident in the manga. I was simply stating that it's power was more akin to that of Manegkyou Genjutsu, and I likened it to a well-known MS genjutsu of a similar nature. That was my argument. There is nothing wrong or invalid about that argument. That's why I said we should dismiss that as a feat, since we can't prove it was accomplished outside of that.



I never stated it base sharingan genjutsu. People were saying Itachi would win from genjutsu, I said Obito genjutsu'd a perfect jin so Itachi didn't have shit on him. I never said Obito would genjutsu him or anything. I was saying Itachi wasn't winning or doing anything because of genjutsu.



> There was nothing saying he accomplished it with base sharingan. That was the original contention, therefore that has to be proven. Which it isn't because this is a very subjective topic with little evidence for either side. Feats with little evidence behind how they're accomplished, especially in a fight with specific restrictions, means that that feat should not be acknowledged in the context of this debate.
> 
> Your logic is so backwards and illogical. It's pretty much "I'm assuming that it's base sharingan, therefore anything else has to be proven but my contention doesn't." That's not how rhetoric works. You can hold onto your unrelated philosophy of proof, I will hold onto logic. Please don't respond to continue this debate. Because, as much as you'd like to think otherwise, you're not proving anything. You're simply stating your opinion as if it's fact (like you always do).



The assumption becomes that when you make the charge (that he used MS). And I'm glad you bring up philosophy of proof like you know what it means. Because I wasn't using unrelated philosophy of proof, I was using exactly that.



			
				Wikipedia:philosophic burden of proof said:
			
		

> Matt Dillahunty gives the example of a large jar full of gumballs to illustrate the burden of proof.[11][12] It is a fact of reality that the number of gumballs in the jar is either even or odd, but the degree of belief/disbelief a person could hold is more nuanced depending upon the evidence available. We can choose to consider two claims about the situation, given as
> 
> 1.   The number of gumballs is even.
> 2.   The number of gumballs is odd.
> ...



He we have:

1. Obito used base genjutsu.
2. Obito used MS genjutsu.

You came out and said that it was MS and we had to prove it wasn't. When you have to prove it was.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 25, 2014)

The Format said:


> How could you possibly consider that a godly genjutsu feat for Itachi went Sasuke layered him in genjutsu as well which is what forced Itachi to cast a new layer upon Sasuke's to regain control?


Because of the fact that Itachi was effortlessly doing so, while Sasuke was the one working to see through his genjutsu's.

I also find it weird that you immediately shout out to claim Obito's intentions are why he tied with kakashi, yet refuse to use it here. Itachi was essentially lol'ing at Sasuke the whole time. 



> A non-Sharingan user


Ok? Sharingan isn't the only way to cast or know about genjutsu. You are telling me orochimaru a top tier in jutsu knowledge, w/ a 5 in the databook isn't an impressive victory? From that counter alone Oro quit akatsuki and later admitted inferiority several times.

Itachi was 13 at the time meaning as well.... So imagine pre skip Sasuke soloing oro in the forest of death with a genjutsu.... 

Like do you realize what the author is trying to depict? Name me one fight, where Itachi's genjutsu wasn't specified or shown to be a substantial threat. Don't worry I'll wait.




> He was a Perfect-Jin, Dr. White.


I doubt he was as good as Bee , or KCM Naruto. But i'll give you that point.




> Killer B says hi.


-Hachibi is the second strongest bjuu
-We don't know how good Yagura was with his bjuu , there is no rulebook stnadard for perfect Jin. But like I said we don't know the circumstances completely. Trying to control someone mid battle is completely different than sneaking someone, which is what Obito could have easily done with Kamui.

You also forget that Sharingan users can suppress both targets.

Pre Hebi sasuke freaking surpressed the Kyuubi, and Naruto was good enough to control 3 tails. Me thinks an MS user should have no problem suppressing the 3 tails, and yagura.




> I haven't forgotten about it; I'm just not taking it out of context like you are, is all.


No you aren't even taking it into account.




> I haven't ignored a single thing. The problem is that you're taking Itachi's genjutsu hype out of context and then expect me to rebuttal something that is fallacious to begin with.


you didn't even explain how it was fallacious 

Anywho, you have obviously ignored this entire manga, because it is a reoccuring theme with him. Itachi is freaking synonymous with genjutsu. Even if you're a top tier with leverage and prepped for hsi genjutsu, he still fucking genjutsu's you. Hate Kishi not me.



> Via MS and Tsukuyomi.


That is only part of it. When a 13 year old can solo Sannins with a glance that is saying something. 



> None of those are "godly genjutsu" feats. Look at the names you listed: all non-Sharingan users (so working at an inherent disadvantage), Sasuke (addressed above), and Bee, who broke out of it quickly thanks to the partner method.


-Sasuke had the sharingan. He also happens to be ya know the re incarnation of RS son and Madara  
-Itachi was implied to be able to genjutsu kakashi as well, as he specifically sent his clone to genjutsu him. If Itachi's clone couldn't do it, it be purposeless for Kishi to have him do such and specifically point out the clone method as a way of dealing with his genjutsu.
-I already spoke on Orochimaru





> I don't want to say you're making shit up, but what am I supposed to make of this? Danzo doesn't say or imply anything about how if Sasuke had been more gifted in genjutsu he could have obtained Tsukuyomi-esque control.


Dude, let me lay it out for you.

-Danzo says I commend you for trapping me.

-Danzo states compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi which can alter time, your genjutsu is nothing.

-Sasuke then goes on to alter Danzo's perception of time ever so much which ultimately kills him.

If Sasuke was good enough he could alter time for longer than he did vs Danzo. Which is essentially whay Tsukuyomi is. 







> Bee broke out of both easily. Judging by the panels Bee actually breaks out of Itachi's illusion quicker.


No he doesn't.

We see bee blitz forward. Just as he's about to reach Sasuke he get's genjutsu'd. We see bee in the bind, he falls and uncloaks. Sasuke lands, goes to take a step and gets raped.

Itachi catches Bee in a split second and Bee attacks an illusion of Itachi, allowing Itachi to counter attack, one which without Hachibi would have soloed Bee. There was a signifigant amount of time in which Hachibi could not communicate to Bee that he was in a genjutsu.

Plus like I said Itachi was reacting instinctively, he couldn't factor in things like Bee being a perfect Jin, as he could have canonically amped his genjutsu to combat this, or as I said earlier attempted to suppress Hachibi.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That was off combat. Characters don't ambush each other with their strongest jutsu, that is something else entirely.


It was off-combat precisely because Obito choose not to engage him. If Obito had taken Naruto, which would have been the logical thing to do, it wouldn't have been a non-combat situation then, would it?



> How is he going to do that ?


By using his intangibility. 



> Yes. "lol plot" isn't an excuse here.
> Obito fought many times on panel and used genjutsu during combat once, and that was against Kakashi, and his genjutsu did jackshit.
> If you count konan, thats 2. But then she was already dying and restrained by Obito. That alone tells me that his genjutsu ain't anything special.


Obito tanked his fight against Kakashi, as pointed out early in this very thread. 

And sorry if I'm not going to do you the favor of pointing out the numerous examples of characters being nefered in situations where we know that they have abilities that would be useful.

How exactly do you imagine Obito genjutsu'd Yagura anyway, outside of basic eye-contact? Instead of siding with Occam's Razor it seems you prefer some convoluted scenario where Obito couldn't possibly be capable of replicating the genjutsu he used on Yaguya, despite genjutsu NEVER being shown to happen any other way outside of Mugen Tsukuyomi.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 25, 2014)

@Dr. White

Respectfully, I read your reply and thanks, but no thanks. Our views concerning Itachi and the manga in general it seems differ to the point where I'm not even sure we're reading the same thing. To continue this discussion would be a waste of both of our time.


----------



## SSMG (Jul 25, 2014)

About itachi vs obito in genjutsu.. obito was fully able to control kurama with just basic sharigan genjutsu... which is greater than anything itachis done with base sharigan.


----------

