# SS Arc Ichigo vs Avatar State Aang



## The Atoner (Nov 27, 2015)

Location: Sereteii (Execution Grounds)

Distance: 100 meters

Restrictions: None, Ichigo starts in bankai and Aang has his mastery from the end of the series

Discuss.


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## Regicide (Nov 27, 2015)

What are Aang's stats like nowadays


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## Haro (Nov 27, 2015)

Regicide said:


> What are Aang's stats like nowadays



Nothing thats not having him not get murked here


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 27, 2015)

He gets a sword through the face


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## willyvereb (Nov 27, 2015)

Soul Society arc?
And besies Aang has some megaton-gigaton range feat from some of his showings (not to mention him being at least > Korra), triple digit Mach speed and small building level durability without his elemental barrier (no idea how strong his barrier, perhaps scaled to his DC).

... Yeah, Ichigo has absolutely no chance here.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Nov 27, 2015)

When did Avatar get to triple digits? I asked in another thread and didn't really get an answer.


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## Revan Reborn (Nov 27, 2015)

Isn't ss Ichigo like mach 500 or 250.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Nov 27, 2015)

Those speed inflations for Bleach even go back that far?


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## Regicide (Nov 27, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Those speed inflations for Bleach even go back that far?


They do

I mean, we're talking vice captains here

Unless the argument is that they somehow jumped up a tier during the timeskip, it applies backwards to everyone and their mother


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## shade0180 (Nov 27, 2015)

Normally we don't do shit like that. 

I don't know why, they are doing it for bleach though..


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## Regicide (Nov 27, 2015)

Anyways, if Aang has megatons to gigatons under his belt, Strawberry-kun is getting nuked here.

The best he had back during the Soul Society arc was kiloton level shit.


shade0180 said:


> Normally we don't do shit like that.
> 
> I don't know why, they are doing it for bleach though..


We do.

Feats don't magically become inapplicable to earlier characters in a series. If the powerscaling works, there's no reason not to apply it.


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## Sablés (Nov 27, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Anyways, if Aang has megatons to gigatons under his belt, Strawberry-kun is getting nuked here.



Assuming Ichigo wouldn't dodge what came his way.

depending on how far into MHS Avatar is for some reason nowadays.


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## Regicide (Nov 27, 2015)

Granted, the barrier might just fuck him over either way if we can scale its durability off of Aang's destructive power.


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## Haro (Nov 27, 2015)

MHS avatar was thrown out and so was the island level feat last time I checked.


Aang is still mach 12 and city level and small building for dura


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## Mickey Mouse (Nov 28, 2015)

Ichigo murders him.


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## willyvereb (Nov 28, 2015)

Both Korra and Vaatu traveled from South Pole to republic city within seconds. That's roughly a ten thouan kilometers long trip.
So yeah, even if we go with the lower end interpretation with roughly a minute of time and accept that Avatarverse's planet is perhaps smaller it's still triple digit Mach.

As for SS Ichigo, if those speed feats happened post-timeskip I am not sure it's a good measure to scale because the way fighting shounen goes. all VCs trained during the timeskip and even before that while preparing to the fake Karakura town invasion so they become better.
sure, that oesn't make sense how century-old spirits who are supposedly tried just as much before suddenly become much stronger but again, fighting shounen logic.

Meanwhile it's true that Giant Korra and Vaatu were the only ones with this speed feat but regardless there had been other people who put up a fight. So even if for example Korra can't just fly at MHS speed outside her giant spiritual form she still has the reaction speed. Same for Aang or pretty much anyone who matters.


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## Monna (Nov 28, 2015)

avatar gets decapitated


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## Shining Force (Nov 28, 2015)

As I remember the VCs and captains did some training during the timeskip.
Edit: Also the megaton firepower is too much for SS Ichigo.


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## Cormag (Nov 28, 2015)

aang gets absolutely destroyed.


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## Regicide (Nov 28, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> As for SS Ichigo, if those speed feats happened post-timeskip I am not sure it's a good measure to scale because the way fighting shounen goes. all VCs trained during the timeskip and even before that while preparing to the fake Karakura town invasion so they become better.
> sure, that oesn't make sense how century-old spirits who are supposedly tried just as much before suddenly become much stronger but again, fighting shounen logic.


Well..

Honestly, I'd buy the argument if there was mention or implication of significant improvements in strength being made across the vice-captains during the timeskip, but the only one shown to have gotten any decently stronger is Renji.

Not sure if it's ever mentioned that all the vice-captains put in real effort into training during the timeskip, actually, just that we know a number of them did.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Same goes for the lapse between the end of the Soul Society arc and the beginning of Fake Karakura Town.

The opposite is implied there, actually, considering how Findor went out of his way to replicate vice-captain level strength during his battle with Hisagi, something that would have made no sense had the vice-captains at large recently received a great boost in strength.

Not to mention that one of the vice-captains who performed the post-timeskip relevant feat was.. Omaeda.


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## tkpirate (Nov 28, 2015)

well,if what willyvereb  said it right(which most likely is) then Aang should easily win this.


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## The Runner (Nov 28, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Both Korra and Vaatu traveled from South Pole to republic city within seconds. That's roughly a ten thouan kilometers long trip.
> So yeah, even if we go with the lower end interpretation with roughly a minute of time and accept that Avatarverse's planet is perhaps smaller it's still triple digit Mach.
> 
> As for SS Ichigo, if those speed feats happened post-timeskip I am not sure it's a good measure to scale because the way fighting shounen goes. all VCs trained during the timeskip and even before that while preparing to the fake Karakura town invasion so they become better.
> ...



We might have to take into account how these are Giants that made the trip. That kind of means that they take longer strides due to their size,


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## Imagine (Nov 28, 2015)

Avatar has some wonky ass powerscaling


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## Wan (Nov 28, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Both Korra and Vaatu traveled from South Pole to republic city within seconds. That's roughly a ten thouan kilometers long trip.
> So yeah, even if we go with the lower end interpretation with roughly a minute of time and accept that Avatarverse's planet is perhaps smaller it's still triple digit Mach.
> 
> As for SS Ichigo, if those speed feats happened post-timeskip I am not sure it's a good measure to scale because the way fighting shounen goes. all VCs trained during the timeskip and even before that while preparing to the fake Karakura town invasion so they become better.
> ...



Still trotting out this tired argument, huh?  

First of all, we don't have an exact time frame for how long it took Spirit Korra and Unavaatu to travel from the poles to Republic City.  There's a scene break between each of them launching and landing.  No basis to claim it was just a matter of seconds, or even just a minute.  It could have been longer.

Second, they didn't do it on their own power.  They were sucked into a web of energy in the sky and traveled along that.

Third, they clearly were not visually traveling at MHS speeds right before landing at Republic City.  So even if they reached a MHS top speed, the visual evidence is that they decelerated to a much lower speed before landing and thus would not have needed to react at MHS speeds.  Other visual evidence includes the water they displaced during the fight, slow waves that indicated they were not fighting at MHS speeds, and the fact that they didn't leaving gigantic craters that would have devastated Republic City on impact.

Lastly, Spirit Korra and Unavaatu were unique forms that only appeared for that fight and were never seen again.  Spirit Korra is an entirely different form for Korra -- how is anything that Spirit Korra did supposed to apply to base or even Avatar State Korra?  Let alone scale to Aang?

So in summary, there is no conclusive evidence that Unavaatu and Korra traveled at MHS speeds, the visual evidence indicates that when they landed at least they weren't moving at MHS speeds and thus don't have a MHS reaction feat, and the forms used in the fight were unique and have no reason to scale to anything else in the Avatar world.  So I don't think there's any basis to ascribe MHS speed to Aang.


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## LazyWaka (Nov 28, 2015)

Wan said:


> Third, they clearly were not visually traveling at MHS speeds right before landing at Republic City.  So even if they reached a MHS top speed, the visual evidence is that they decelerated to a much lower speed before landing and thus would not have needed to react at MHS speeds.  Other visual evidence includes the water they displaced during the fight, slow waves that indicated they were not fighting at MHS speeds, and the fact that they didn't leaving gigantic craters that would have devastated Republic City on impact.



This one is based entirely on tropes.


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## Regicide (Nov 28, 2015)

Wan is still pushing that visual speed nonsense, I see

Disregarding the fact that if characters in fiction were ever depicted at speeds beyond what the audience was capable of perceiving from close up.. it would be impossible to depict said characters in the first place


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## Aphelion (Nov 28, 2015)

Haven't actually seen Korra, but isn't it possible that being in her giant form or whatever it's called also boosts her reaction time?


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## LazyWaka (Nov 28, 2015)

Possibly. Really powerscaling anything off of giant spirit Korra is questionable at best.


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## Haro (Nov 28, 2015)

Visual nonsense aside we don't have a time frame like Wan said


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## The Runner (Nov 28, 2015)

Oh, so they didn't just run there?

Damn I have got to re-watch this shit.


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## willyvereb (Nov 28, 2015)

Ryo Asuka said:


> Visual nonsense aside we don't have a time frame like Wan said


We absolutely do?
The event occours in less than a minute.
Hell, even if somebody wishes to appeal to scene breaks the other scenes shown are running on a pretty tight timeframe so the only implication is that it happened under a short time.

Korra also fought this form of Vaatu before even porjecting her giant Korra form.
An that's just the most direct one.

Seriously, if people willing to part with our years long traditional assumption that each successive stor arcs in fighting shounen imply that characters got stronger than before thus reverse powerscaling to older times almost never works, yet trying to say "scaling of Giant Korra is contemptous at best" that does stinks full of hypocritism to me.


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## Regicide (Nov 28, 2015)

I stopped watching Korra after the first season, so I can't exactly comment on the details of any powerscaling for it (and by extension, how it relates to Avatar).

But if what Willy says is true and that there were other characters who reacted to giant Korra and the like?

Seems fine to me to assume that they and the relevant parts of the cast of the previous series would get that for their combat speed or whatever.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Seriously, if people willing to part with our years long traditional assumption that each successive stor arcs in fighting shounen imply that characters got stronger than before thus reverse powerscaling to older times almost never works





> that does stinks full of hypocritism to me.





That it does


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## Kenpachi TZ (Nov 28, 2015)

Liquid said:


> That it does



Be honest. How long have you been setting up and waiting for this?


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## Regicide (Nov 28, 2015)

Can't believe it's been two years since those threads.

Those were dark fucking times.


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## Solar (Nov 28, 2015)

Liquid said:


> That it does



oh shi              t


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2015)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Be honest. How long have you been setting up and waiting for this?



Nothing of the sort, I'm just not the type to forget.  


Not that I actually have a problem with arguing against reverse powerscaling since global power inflation can exist despite logical implications suggesting otherwise which may have even occurred and we just don't know it

 but I'm pretty sure that's not what Willy's getting at if the above link is of any indication and he's actually arguing for _documented _evidence.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 28, 2015)

Liquid said:


> That it does


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## Regicide (Nov 28, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Nothing of the sort, I'm just not the type to forget.


You must be the type to hold grudges.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 28, 2015)

BLS would be proud.


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## willyvereb (Nov 28, 2015)

So what does an old response of mine taken out of context even do?
Mind the fact it still says more or less the same as I did just a while.
So well, shall I say Liquid pulled a Thor and posted a source which actually contradicts his argument?


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## Wan (Nov 28, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Wan is still pushing that visual speed nonsense, I see
> 
> Disregarding the fact that if characters in fiction were ever depicted at speeds beyond what the audience was capable of perceiving from close up.. it would be impossible to depict said characters in the first place



That begs the question if they are meant to be moving at speeds "beyond what the audience is capable of perceiving".  Series like Naruto or Dragon Ball Z still use visual cues to indicate that the characters are fighting at crazy superhuman speeds.  There is no such visual cue for the Spirit Korra vs Unavaatu fight, and there are several visual cues that they aren't.  Why would they bother animating the water moving at a realistic speed if realistic speed was never the intention?  There's also the detail that Pema and the airbender kids were apparently able watch the battle just fine.  Does Pema have superhuman reactions now?  

The idea that Spirit Korra and Unavaatu are fighting at MHS speeds strains plausibility much more than them just fighting at the speeds visually indicated, and there isn't any positive evidence in favor of MHS speeds.



willyvereb said:


> We absolutely do?
> The event occours in less than a minute.
> Hell, even if somebody wishes to appeal to scene breaks the other scenes shown are running on a pretty tight timeframe so the only implication is that it happened under a short time.



And what timeframe is that, exactly?  Explain.



> Korra also fought this form of Vaatu before even porjecting her giant Korra form.
> An that's just the most direct one.



No, she didn't.  Korra fought Vaatu.  Vaatu then fused with Unalaq, which was supposed to be more powerful than Vaatu alone, and after defeating Korra by destroying Raava, he transformed into another form called "Unavaatu" that was even more powerful.  Only the Unavaatu form has the supposed speed feat, and Korra only fought Unavaatu in her giant spirit form. 

This is Vaatu:



This is Unavaatu:



Not the same thing.


Regicide said:


> I stopped watching Korra after the first season, so I can't exactly comment on the details of any powerscaling for it (and by extension, how it relates to Avatar).
> 
> But if what Willy says is true and that there were other characters who reacted to giant Korra and the like?
> 
> Seems fine to me to assume that they and the relevant parts of the cast of the previous series would get that for their combat speed or whatever.



No characters other than Unavaatu ever fought Spirit Korra.


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## Regicide (Nov 28, 2015)

Wan said:


> That begs the question if they are being portrayed as speeds "beyond what the audience is capable of perceiving".  Series like Naruto or Dragon Ball Z still use visual cues to indicate that the characters are fighting at crazy superhuman speeds.


You're expecting more work and consistency out of fiction than actually exists


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## Wan (Nov 28, 2015)

Regicide said:


> You're expecting more work and consistency out of fiction than actually exists



And you're expecting a universal approach to fiction that doesn't actually exist.


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## Haro (Nov 28, 2015)

Wombat don't lock plz


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## SunRise (Nov 29, 2015)

Links for calc for MHS speed and Gigatons of firepower for Avatar-verse?


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## Alita (Nov 29, 2015)

The only way aang can potentially win here is if we can scale the durability of his air shield off of his destructive power and that only works if you believe he can be scaled off of korra's destructive feats which I'm not sure of. Espically when it come to giant korra.


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## Tom Servo (Nov 29, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Soul Society arc?
> And besies Aang has some megaton-gigaton range feat from some of his showings (not to mention him being at least > Korra), triple digit Mach speed and small building level durability without his elemental barrier (no idea how strong his barrier, perhaps scaled to his DC).
> 
> ... Yeah, Ichigo has absolutely no chance here.



I'm pretty sure he can't be scaled from Korra can he?

Does avatar state even scale from Giant Korra? Who as we know is MHS and Small Island level DC/Durability


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## Sablés (Nov 29, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> So what does an old response of mine taken out of context even do?
> Mind the fact it still says more or less the same as I did just a while.
> So well, shall I say Liquid pulled a Thor and posted a source which actually contradicts his argument?


Out of context? Both arguments you've made dealt with power progression 

Before



> That's mostly because the majority of the characters remained nearly stagnant in power.





> From the looks it appears things remained mostly stagnant save for a few notable characters.



After



> all VCs trained during the timeskip and even before that while preparing to the fake Karakura town invasion so they become better.
> sure, that oesn't make sense how century-old spirits who are supposedly tried just as much before suddenly become much stronger but again, fighting shounen logic.




Do not match up. Your earlier belief was that characters remained stagnant in power because there was little evidence to support they did become stronger in order to argue against that nonsense Ichigo feat. Now you're assuming they could've been...because reasons I guess?

The assumption that ordinary VCs have all of a sudden surpassed captains that could walk over them using at least 1/5th of their power is laughable (okay not really; current chaps show just how off the rails the shit has gone but even they have explanations) Especially when much of the FB arc dealt with returning Ichigo back to his former shinigami power in the form of his fullbring. That same power turned Ginjou from fodder to being able to match TS-Ichigo in multiple areas.


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## Regicide (Nov 29, 2015)

But base Ginjou was comparable to Facebook

Who was taking on Byakuya


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## Tom Servo (Nov 29, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> The only way aang can potentially win here is if we can scale the durability of his air shield off of his destructive power and that only works if you believe he can be scaled off of korra's destructive feats which I'm not sure of. Espically when it come to giant korra.



She flew from Antarctica to Republic City in seconds.

The Island level DC is scaled from her KE (she slammed directly into UnaVaatu and neither were harmed but they were able to injure each other with those weird giant ass ki/chi blasts)

Need to check but from what I remember it was Mach 900+ speed and 2-6 Gigatons.


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## Sablés (Nov 29, 2015)

Regicide said:


> But base Ginjou was comparable to Facebook
> 
> Who was taking on Byakuya



Pretty apparent Tsukishima wasn't taking him seriously considering he could have used BOTE at any point in the fight. Tsukishima was also getting his ass kicked by _Shikai _Byakuya before BOTE


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## Sablés (Nov 29, 2015)

Also kind of supported by the fact that Tsukishima is the only FBer that doesn't receive Ichigo's powers but still outperformed all of them.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 29, 2015)

Pretty sure Aang's island-level shit is from Kyoshi pushing her fucking island away from the mainland with her bending


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## Haro (Nov 30, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Pretty sure Aang's island-level shit is from Kyoshi pushing her fucking island away from the mainland with her bending



That is no where is near Island level lol.


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## willyvereb (Nov 30, 2015)

Ryo Asuka said:


> That is no where is near Island level lol.


I agree. That feat can be easily in the teraton range, even.
And I seriously doubt Kyoshi's showing would scale to Aang. Avatar have varying level of powers and skills even if they were to inherit some of the previous Avatars' abilities.
What we know for sure is that Korra is below Aang, best example is how Toph was way better than her even at elderly age.

Also I am regretful to inform you since S2 Korra was a trainwreck but you guys gotta watch the scene again. Korra did react against Unavatuu or however the hell you wish to call that form.
Besides even without that claiming that Unalaq woul even come close to doubling Vaatu's power thus his speed is ridiculous. Same after absorbing Ra-whatever. It only doubles Vaatu's strength which doesn't magically mean you can't scale their speed.
This isn't DBZ where slight differences in powerlevel stat are actually hiding massive gap in actual abilities.


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## Wan (Nov 30, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> I agree. That feat can be easily in the teraton range, even.
> And I seriously doubt Kyoshi's showing would scale to Aang. Avatar have varying level of powers and skills even if they were to inherit some of the previous Avatars' abilities.
> What we know for sure is that Korra is below Aang, best example is how Toph was way better than her even at elderly age.



I actually agree with not scaling Kyoshi's feat to Aang, though not for exactly the same reasons.  I don' think we know "for sure" that Korra is below Aang; the example of Toph being "way better" than Korra was when she was still suffering from psychological trauma and mercury poisoning, and even still had bits of mercury in her body.  She wasn't at her best, but she had recovered from that by the end of the series.  Plus, we don't even know how Aang would compare to "old master" Toph either.  It's entirely possible that Toph would make just as much of a fool of Aang in the same circumstances as she did with Korra.



> Also I am regretful to inform you since S2 Korra was a trainwreck but you guys gotta watch the scene again. Korra did react against Unavatuu or however the hell you wish to call that form.



The fact is that Korra only fought to Unavaatu in her giant spirit form.  Not in base or with the Avatar State.



> Besides even without that claiming that Unalaq woul even come close to doubling Vaatu's power thus his speed is ridiculous. Same after absorbing Ra-whatever. It only doubles Vaatu's strength which doesn't magically mean you can't scale their speed.



There is no statement that it "only doubles Vaatu's strength".  The point is that we don't _know_ how wide the gap is between Avatar State Korra and Unalaq and Spirit Korra and Unavaatu, so there's no solid basis for scaling between the two.



> This isn't DBZ where slight differences in powerlevel stat are actually hiding massive gap in actual abilities.



 Wait, we're using "this isn't DBZ" as a valid argument now?


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## AgentAAA (Nov 30, 2015)

Wan said:


> I
> 
> Wait, we're using "this isn't DBZ" as a valid argument now?



Oh, the beautiful hypocrisy here
No, this isn't the same argument as your terribad reasons for why we need to treat Avatar differently so we can treat it "like the writers intended" that seems to be your main argument for the bullshit you spew, Wan.


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## Tom Servo (Nov 30, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> I agree. That feat can be easily in the teraton range, even.
> And I seriously doubt Kyoshi's showing would scale to Aang. Avatar have varying level of powers and skills even if they were to inherit some of the previous Avatars' abilities.
> *What we know for sure is that Korra is below Aang, best example is how Toph was way better than her even at elderly age.*
> 
> ...



Not sure about that. Toph was an old woman bragging to Korra that she wouldn't even wanna challenge her in her prime. Problem is Toph was an adoloscent during Aang's story, which should also be below her "prime" which I'm assuming is in her adult years (when Kate Higgins was voicing her)


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## Wan (Nov 30, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Oh, the beautiful hypocrisy here
> No, this isn't the same argument as your terribad reasons for why we need to treat Avatar differently so we can treat it "like the writers intended" that seems to be your main argument for the bullshit you spew, Wan.



"Hypocrisy"? Sorry for asking a question. I've been told repeatedly that "this isn't DBZ/comics" is no excuse to evaluate ATLA/LOK differently, yet willyvereb just used that exact excuse. Can you explain just how it's not the same?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 30, 2015)

Kyoshi did the feat in the Avatar state of course Aang gets the scaling to it he mastered it when he was 13


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## AgentAAA (Nov 30, 2015)

Wan said:


> "Hypocrisy"? Sorry for asking a question. I've been told repeatedly that "this isn't DBZ/comics" is no excuse to evaluate ATLA/LOK differently, yet willyvereb just used that exact excuse. Can you explain just how it's not the same?



because the point he was making had nothing to do with "evaluating it differently" but pointing out a trope that DBZ has which isn't present here - namely, the power level statistic. it has nothing to do with evaluating it differently.
Though really it's not like you're not subtly trying to use that argument here via appealing to author intent or lack of speedlines so it's not like you ever LISTEN when someone tells you this anyways.


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## Imperator100 (Nov 30, 2015)

Has anyone calced the feat of Kyoshi bending that island?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 30, 2015)

I think we just slapped island-level on it because she could easily move it with her airbending but the speed was impressive too


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## Wan (Nov 30, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Kyoshi did the feat in the Avatar state of course Aang gets the scaling to it he mastered it when he was 13



No, simply having control of the Avatar State does not mean you automatically scale to the other Avatars.  Korra's limited showings with the Avatar State during Book 2 are the evidence for this.



AgentAAA said:


> because the point he was making had nothing to do with "evaluating it differently" but pointing out a trope that DBZ has which isn't present here - namely, the power level statistic. it has nothing to do with evaluating it differently.
> Though really it's not like you're not subtly trying to use that argument here via appealing to author intent or lack of speedlines so it's not like you ever LISTEN when someone tells you this anyways.



So a difference in tropes is reason enough to treat series differently, then?  By that standard, you can say that superspeed as a trope doesn't exist in ATLA/LOK in the same way as it does in DBZ.



Imperator100 said:


> Has anyone calced the feat of Kyoshi bending that island?



Not that I know of.



> I think we just slapped island-level on it because she could easily move it with her airbending but the speed was impressive too



She didn't move the island with just her airbending, though.


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## Regicide (Nov 30, 2015)

Wan said:


> So a difference in tropes is reason enough to treat series differently, then?  By that standard, you can say that superspeed as a trope doesn't exist in ATLA/LOK in the same way as it does in DBZ.


There is no difference in treatment

The original point being made was in regards to power dynamics present in one series and not in another


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## AgentAAA (Nov 30, 2015)

Wan said:


> So a difference in tropes is reason enough to treat series differently, then?  By that standard, you can say that superspeed as a trope doesn't exist in ATLA/LOK in the same way as it does in DBZ.


No, not really.
What was being pointed out was merely that there was no reason for the power to have more than doubled, and the main difference being pointed out was that this wasn't similar to using Dragonball power levels or fusion techniques, which don't correlate so directly.
I.E it has nothing to do with your example.

You're oversimplifying on purpose in order to get your way, but that's hardly surprising.


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## Wan (Nov 30, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> No, not really.
> What was being pointed out was merely that there was no reason for the power to have more than doubled, and the main difference being pointed out was that this wasn't similar to using Dragonball power levels or fusion techniques, which don't correlate so directly.
> I.E it has nothing to do with your example.
> 
> You're oversimplifying on purpose in order to get your way, but that's hardly surprising.



I never claimed that it was similar to Dragon Ball Z as my argument, so then the "difference" is pointless because it's not actually addressing anything I said.


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## Tom Servo (Nov 30, 2015)

Wan said:


> No, simply having control of the Avatar State does not mean you automatically scale to the other Avatars.  Korra's limited showings with the Avatar State during Book 2 are the evidence for this.



Wasn't it established in teh first series that the Avatar state is essentially the current Avatar assimilating and using the combined power of all the previous avatars at once? If that's the case Korra's avatar state should very easily scale to the previous ones (not that I think its necessary since her Giant form has the best speed and DC feat shown in the series thus far)


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## Wan (Nov 30, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Wasn't it established in teh first series that the Avatar state is essentially the current Avatar assimilating and using the combined power of all the previous avatars at once? If that's the case Korra's avatar state should very easily scale to the previous ones (not that I think its necessary since her Giant form has the best speed and DC feat shown in the series thus far)



Roku told Aang that "the glow [of the Avatar State] is the combination of all your past lives focusing their energy through your body".  Roku does _not_ say that the Avatar State allows you to do anything and everything a past Avatar can.  Within the context of Roku's statement, it's still possible for there to be a limit with regards to the potential of the Avatar's body to focus the energy.  In practice, when Korra was using the Avatar State to fight Unalaq, who had his own form of the Avatar State, Korra did not display power to match Kyoshi or Aang's best even though she seemed to be pushed to her limit.

Legend of Korra establishes that the past lives are not the only factor in the power the Avatar State provides, either.  Wan and Unalaq could use the Avatar State without having any past Avatars/Dark Avatars to draw from, and Korra retained the Avatar State even after losing her connection to the past Avatars.  The glow even occurs for Wan, Unalaq, and post-Book 2 Korra, practically directly retconning Roku's statement about the glow being the from the the past lives.  It's from Raava or Vaatu.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 30, 2015)

Wan said:


> Roku told Aang that "the glow [of the Avatar State] is the combination of all your past lives focusing their energy through your body".  Roku does _not_ say that the Avatar State allows you to do anything and everything a past Avatar can.  Within the context of Roku's statement, it's still possible for there to be a limit with regards to the potential of the Avatar's body to focus the energy.  In practice, when Korra was using the Avatar State to fight Unalaq, who had his own form of the Avatar State, Korra did not display power to match Kyoshi or Aang's best even though she seemed to be pushed to her limit.
> 
> Legend of Korra establishes that the past lives are not the only factor in the power the Avatar State provides, either.  Wan and Unalaq could use the Avatar State without having any past Avatars/Dark Avatars to draw from, and Korra retained the Avatar State even after losing her connection to the past Avatars.  The glow even occurs for Wan, Unalaq, and post-Book 2 Korra, practically directly retconning Roku's statement about the glow being the from the the past lives.  It's from Raava or Vaatu.



The glow on Unalaq was literally just Vaatu's power flowing through his body allowing him to use all 4 elements. Same for Wan. Korra only lost the connection to the past Avatars spirits so she cant call on them like Aang could, she still had Raava in her so she can use the power the Avatar state entails to all Avatars. 

Korra not throwing out boulders or fireballs the size of an island is just bs dude. "It doesnt look that powerful so it cant be that powerful" we already went over this with the fucking spirit cannon so stop bringing it up.

Actually then shouldnt it be then that Raava provides the power for the state allowing the benders to do crazy shit like Kyoshi but the past Avatars provide the knowledge? that would make sense


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## Wan (Nov 30, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> The glow on Unalaq was literally just Vaatu's power flowing through his body allowing him to use all 4 elements. Same for Wan. Korra only lost the connection to the past Avatars spirits so she cant call on them like Aang could, she still had Raava in her so she can use the power the Avatar state entails to all Avatars.
> 
> Korra not throwing out boulders or fireballs the size of an island is just bs dude. "It doesnt look that powerful so it cant be that powerful" we already went over this with the fucking spirit cannon so stop bringing it up.
> 
> Actually then shouldnt it be then that Raava provides the power for the state allowing the benders to do crazy shit like Kyoshi but the past Avatars provide the knowledge? that would make sense



Well first of all, Vaatu didn't allow Unalaq to use all four elements, Unalaq could still only use his native element of waterbending.  The power of the four elements didn't come from Raava or Vaatu,Wan collected them by finding a lion turtle of each element that could bestow the power.  (that would make for a pretty sweet video game structure, tbqh).  But regardless, the glow coming from Raava or Vaatu's power flowing through Wan or Unalaq...is my point.  It's not coming from the past lives, like Roku said.

No, I will insist that underwhelming visual effects of an attack are a sign of underwhelming power for the attack until the cows come home.  It doesn't completely override any possible evidence, but I do think it counts against shaky scaling.  There is no solid reason to think the power for the attacks are anything other than what we see on screen, specific to the context of Korra and Unalaq's battle.

Your suggestion that it's Raava who provides the power while the past Avatars provide the knowledge is actually quite possible though.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 1, 2015)

It makes sense that its Raava providing the power seeing as how Korra had all the power of the Avatar state but none of the skill that other Avatars showed with it. She always threw it around wildly but that could also be her personality.

And Visual effects not being consistent is common in everything. Artists dont perfectly scale everything every single time they draw it to show characters throwing around crazy shit.

Also I forgot about Unalaq not using the 4 elements but its been forever since ive seen season 2


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## Wan (Dec 1, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> It makes sense that its Raava providing the power seeing as how Korra had all the power of the Avatar state but none of the skill that other Avatars showed with it. She always threw it around wildly but that could also be her personality.



That doesn't quite explain her low showing in comparison with Aang and Kyoshi when fighting Unalaq in Season 2 before she lost her connection to the past Avatars.  She still should have had the "knowledge" from the past Avatars at that point.  If anything, her Avatar State feats in combat are more impressive in Books 3 and 4, when she didn't have the connection, than in Book 2 when she did. 



> And Visual effects not being consistent is common in everything. Artists dont perfectly scale everything every single time they draw it to show characters throwing around crazy shit.



Some fictions are more consistent than others, what matters is the consistency and context of each specific series.  The possibility of inconsistency is not an excuse to universally ignore visuals as worthless.  The way visuals tend to get used around here is arbitrary -- the calc for Kuvira's cannon is entirely, completely, utterly based on one single visual, yet the multiple visuals of the cannon's effect during the battle of Republic City should just be ignored?  Why?  How does that work?  This is a bit of a tangent though for the thread.



> Also I forgot about Unalaq not using the 4 elements but its been forever since ive seen season 2



Fair enough.


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## FrozenFeathers (Dec 1, 2015)

Aang is a glass cannon, and is slower than Ichigo. 
Ichigo has some massive advantages here.


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## AgentAAA (Dec 1, 2015)

Wan said:


> I never claimed that it was similar to Dragon Ball Z as my argument, so then the "difference" is pointless because it's not actually addressing anything I said.



the point being made was simply that there was no reason to assume an exponential increase because the precedent doesn't exist, such AS in DBZ.
So the difference has a point.
It was a very simple comparison and as usual you decided to focus on the irrelevant part rather than the actual point Willy made. Good job.


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## Wan (Dec 1, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> the point being made was simply that there was no reason to assume an exponential increase because the precedent doesn't exist, such AS in DBZ.
> So the difference has a point.
> It was a very simple comparison and as usual you decided to focus on the irrelevant part rather than the actual point Willy made. Good job.



There's also no reason to assume Unavaatu and Spirit Korra's speed must be close to AS Korra/AS Unalaq.  Why is precedent needed?  What is needed is positive proof that the lower tier characters scale to the higher tier characters.  Which there is none.


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## Keishin (Dec 1, 2015)

FrozenFeathers said:


> Aang is a glass cannon, and is slower than Ichigo.
> Ichigo has some massive advantages here.



No way is Avatar State slower than Ichigo unless maybe in bankai (blitzed Sasakibe and 2 other VC's).


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## xenos5 (Dec 1, 2015)

FrozenFeathers said:


> Aang is a glass cannon, and is slower than Ichigo.
> Ichigo has some massive advantages here.



I'd say the elemental orb he surrounds himself with as a shield should scale to his DC. 

Speed is being debated but regardless of the result of that debate with the elemental orb surrounding him while he throws out large scale attacks he should beat Ichigo eventually.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Dec 1, 2015)

xenos5 said:


> I'd say the elemental orb he surrounds himself with as a shield should scale to his DC.
> 
> Speed is being debated but regardless of the result of that debate with the elemental orb surrounding him while he throws out large scale attacks he should beat Ichigo eventually.



Is endurance not a thing? Can Aang stay in avatar form indefinitely and if so why doesn't he? Fairly certain Aang's endurance is particularly impressive to ichigo casually running on a energy draining treadmill for days nonstop. 

I don't see Many attacks actually landing on Ichigo,- even if they do,- can Aangs casual read spam able attacks ( in avatar form) actually do anything? It's not like their is evidence to suggest sang can spam town level attacks nonstop,- unless their is some reverse scaling that I'm unaware off Aangs best combat  feats are from his fight with the fire lord.- the speed/dc/variety just doesn't seem like much to ss ichigo. 

Note: I don't think his elemental orb should scale to his dc,- in the fight the orb wasn't even used for defense,- aang used it to attack simultaneously with different elements. It lets him fight with all the elements on hand. If it has any defensive capacity ( other than allowing him to break down rock pillars by flying straight through them ),- it was not showcased in the fight- ( ie it didn't tank anything noteworthy) furthermore, dc is not equal to defense. The various elements have different utilities,- fire is destructive ,- but you can't make any notable effective shield ( generally,- like how yamamotto  s dc isnot equal to defense - his defense is melt you befor you get close ). Aangs strongest defense should be his earth dome ( it took more damage than his air shield every did )it's not like each element adds a equal defensive output when he uses the 4 element dome. - in Aangs case the wind, is the only defense, the dome only has a few rocks floating around it, the ring of fire isn't doing anything for defense,- and neither is the water. Essentially his 4 element shield shouldn't really be any more defense capable than a regular air shield ( other than being in avatar state)


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## Sablés (Dec 1, 2015)

SS Ichigo's stamina doesn't last too long either way since his bones gets crushed  by his reiatsu and slows down considerably over time.


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## The Atoner (Dec 10, 2015)

This thread was amazing

/10char


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## Nikushimi (Dec 10, 2015)

"Number One" starts playing, and the collective Avatars from across history un-incarnate themselves to stop hearing it and Aang ceases to exist.


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## Tom Servo (Dec 10, 2015)

If Avatar Aang gets scaling from Avatar Korra that would make him MHS and Island level.


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## Tom Servo (Dec 10, 2015)

Regicide said:


> They do
> 
> I mean, we're talking vice captains here
> 
> Unless the argument is that they somehow jumped up a tier during the timeskip, it applies backwards to everyone and their mother



1. Vice Captains can't be scaled from a God Tier's speed feat

2. Everyone trained over the timeskip so no SS arc Ichigo can't get scaled from them.


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## Regicide (Dec 10, 2015)

Oh jesus christ

For the umpteenth time, Yhwach is not the only one with a MHS feat

This isn't the first time you've heard it either, stop being obtuse

Not to mention that the suggestion that all the vice-captains suddenly became so much more powerful after the timeskip that they jumped up a tier beyond Ichigo at the end of the SS arc

Who was styling all over them with his bare hands by that point

Is absolute nonsense when that level of increase in strength is never implied or demonstrated


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## MusubiKazesaru (Dec 10, 2015)

Something something mach 29, something, something, Metapod, something, something, Death Star, something, something, complete.


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## howdy01 (Dec 10, 2015)

I highly doubt that omaeda of all people trained...
I mean iirc he still looks exactly the same, and has no new powers that we know of.
He only gets feats when soi-fon is in danger or needs help, like we've seen a couple of times.


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## Tom Servo (Dec 10, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Oh jesus christ
> 
> *For the umpteenth time, Yhwach is not the only one with a MHS feat*
> 
> ...



You have yet to provide any evidence for this....like at all.

And yes, we don't how how much stronger they got so its up for debate and could easily have feats of their own and could be above SS arc shikai Ichigo (especielly with all the new feats Bleach ahs been getting in this arc, the fact that even the fodders of the spirit nazis are proving themselves to be city level and the fact that Ichigo's power never ever stays in once place for more than a few chapters)


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## Regicide (Dec 10, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> You have yet to provide any evidence for this....like at all.


And of course, it seems you really do want to go through this song and dance again

One, that assertion is utter horseshit


Regicide said:


> Oh boy
> 
> the relevant blog
> 
> ...


I've repeatedly provided you the calc in question

And like before, you've yet to put forth any actual reason why said calc isn't legitimate

Such as how moving more distance in the same time equates to not being faster


Tom Servo said:


> And yes, we don't how how much stronger they got so its up for debate


Not how that works

Burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that they trained to the point that they're now stronger than Strawberry-kun was during the Soul Society arc

And since there's no actual evidence that such a thing happened, you're probably shit out of luck


Tom Servo said:


> and could easily have feats of their own


Too bad they haven't demonstrated any


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## Tom Servo (Dec 10, 2015)

Regicide said:


> And of course, it seems you really do want to go through this song and dance again
> 
> One, that assertion is utter horseshit
> I've repeatedly provided you the calc in question
> ...



1. Dancing on your grave is one of my favorite past times

2. No this is the first and as expected it's hilarious because you're scaliing everyone from a feat Aizen and Kyoraku had.

3. As per usual your calc is scrub level at best. especielly given the fact that, the timeframe wasn't even that short given the casual conversation or the fact that the actions of the others were off-panel meaning you have no claim of reference here or the fact that once again the eyeball creatures caught them by surprise, either through actual speed or stealth would be ambigiously unclear

4. Uh no? First of all these are characters where even noobs like Toshiro can jump up to being stronger than Released Ulquiorra and Vizard Ichigo in just a couple of months....2 years have passed and we don't know what power their own just that any feats they have can't be scaled to their pre-timeskip versions which should be something even a no-count like you should comprehend. Hell even Aizen's stronger post timeskip despite being stuck motionless in a chair.

5. I'm still waiting for anything resembling a well-spoken argument from you, or atleast one that's worth more than a few seconds of my time.


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## Regicide (Dec 10, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> 2. No this is the first and as expected it's hilarious because you're scaliing everyone from a feat Aizen and Kyoraku had.


Except that's wrong

They all moved

That was the whole point


Tom Servo said:


> 3. As per usual your calc is scrub level at best. especielly given the fact that, the timeframe wasn't even that short given the casual conversation or the fact that the actions of the others were off-panel meaning you have no claim of reference here or the fact that once again the eyeball creatures caught them by surprise, either through actual speed or stealth would be ambigiously unclear


Okay, so I can more or less just start assuming that you're just skimming these blogs at this point

Conversation isn't being used as a timeframe

All I need to do is observe that no one moved until Kyouraku told them to

And that they all got the hell out of dodge before the eyeballs touched down/Kurohitsugi hit


Tom Servo said:


> 4. Uh no? First of all these are characters where even noobs like Toshiro can jump up to being stronger than Released Ulquiorra and Vizard Ichigo in just a couple of months


He didn't jump up, Hitsugaya was always that powerful

Unless you want to start bringing up examples of jobbing, he was never a "noob" either


Tom Servo said:


> 2 years have passed and we don't know what power their own just that any feats they have can't be scaled to their pre-timeskip versions


It doesn't matter whether or not their feats are scalable to their pre-skip selves

The basis here is whether or not they became comparable or stronger than SS arc Ichigo

Who ends up scaling to everyone that matters

And since such an improvement can't be conclusively proven, there's no reason to assume that they are indeed comparable or superior


Tom Servo said:


> Hell even Aizen's stronger post timeskip despite being stuck motionless in a chair.


And this is acknowledged as Aizen being an anomaly with a reality warping orb stuck in his chest


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## Regicide (Dec 10, 2015)

On second thought

I might as well just respond in kind by stonewalling

Tom's the only one pushing any complaints anyways, so it's not as if this has any bearing on the standing of the relevant blogs anymore


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## Sablés (Dec 10, 2015)

You _just _realized that?

Regi, you can real slow sometimes


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## Regicide (Dec 10, 2015)

Figured it was a lost cause a while ago

Boredom won over regardless since it was a way of killing time

Only just now that I feel that the tedium of picking this shit apart outweighs the time killing aspect


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## Tom Servo (Dec 10, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Except that's wrong
> 
> They all moved
> 
> ...



1. No it wans't The point of the scene was Aizen destroying all of them which none of the others could do

2. No he wasn't....he was barely a challenge to Base Yammy...

3. Ofcourse they're stronger than him....hell most of the lieutenants are most certainly above SS arc Shikai Ichigo before the timeskip.....

4. Assuming the hogkyoku has anything to do with it is a baseless assumption.



Liquid said:


> You _just _realized that?
> 
> Regi, you can real slow sometimes



I never get used to the sight of retards circle jerking each other.....don't you have mods to be whining to Liquid? I think there's someone out there with an opinion of their own, best whine about them before its too late.

You constantly prove yourself to be both a coward and honestly someone who isn't too bright. Unless you have an argument of your own step down because amateur hour's over.


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## Tacocat (Dec 10, 2015)

Regibringer


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## Fujita (Dec 10, 2015)

I'm legit starting to wonder if Tom just lets some sort of rodent scurry at random across his keyboard 

it would explain a lot


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## Tacocat (Dec 10, 2015)

I'd find debating with him more dignified, at least.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 10, 2015)

Wait

Fujita's alive? 

Great set at any rate


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## Tom Servo (Dec 10, 2015)

Fujita said:


> I'm legit starting to wonder if Tom just lets some sort of rodent scurry at random across his keyboard
> 
> it would explain a lot



Are you here to bring a direct argument in this debate or do you legit want a smacktalk throwdown spamwar? Because when I'm done bending you ever, the friction burns left in your anus will be untreatable.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 10, 2015)

Just what Fujita needs

More weird fetishists


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## Crimson Dragoon (Dec 10, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Just what Fujita needs
> 
> More weird fetishists



she basically has a version of Diarmuid's charm face, but over the internet

attracts weirdos and whatnot


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## Fujita (Dec 10, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Wait
> 
> Fujita's alive?



partially



> Great set at any rate



you too  



Crimson Dragoon said:


> she basically has a version Diarmuid's charm face, but over the internet
> 
> attracts weirdos and whatnot





such is my fate, apparently


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Dec 10, 2015)

First Solar Exalt Mirage, and Now Tom Servo.

You really are the herald of lancer ulquiorra


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## Wan (Dec 10, 2015)

Why was this thread necroed



Tom Servo said:


> If Avatar Aang gets scaling from Avatar Korra that would make him MHS and Island level.



No


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## The Atoner (Dec 10, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Are you here to bring a direct argument in this debate or do you legit want a smacktalk throwdown spamwar? Because when I'm done bending you ever, the friction burns left in your anus will be untreatable.







Wan said:


> Why was this thread necroed
> 
> 
> 
> No



I can't believe people actually seriously thought that Aang stood a chance.


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## Tom Servo (Dec 10, 2015)

Wan said:


> Why was this thread necroed
> 
> 
> 
> No



Yes....yes he would.


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## The Atoner (Dec 10, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Yes....yes he would.



Of coarse he would never get outright rape-stomped like some people in here think, but I feel in the long run he would just be endlessly trying to tag Ichigo in bankai until he eventually wears himself out, since he lacks the speed to effectively attack him and he can't stay in Avatar state forever.


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## Tom Servo (Dec 10, 2015)

The Atoner said:


> Of coarse he would never get outright rape-stomped like some people in here think, but I feel in the long run he would just be endlessly trying to tag Ichigo in bankai until he eventually wears himself out, since he lacks the speed to effectively attack him and he can't stay in Avatar state forever.



Well this all depends on if he even gets scaling from Giant Korra (which may or may not be equal to Avatar Korra its super ambigious about it) Who I believe we calced at Mach 900 with her flight and reaction speed and Island level (6 Gigatons) from KE which both she and UnaVaatu tanked.

But again I don't even know if Aang gets scaling from Avatar Korra since the Avatar state just adds all the previous Avatars power and bending to the current one so essentially Korra might be the strongest character in her Avatar state)


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 10, 2015)

>from ke

Pls no


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## Tom Servo (Dec 10, 2015)

Nighty said:


> >from ke
> 
> Pls no



Why what's the problem with this? She flies from Antarctica to reupblic city at MHS speed and slams into UnaVaatu. They both tank the force unharmed...why wouldn't KE work here?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 10, 2015)

What indication is there that they're impacting with gigatons of tnt equivalent 

Also post this calc


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## SunRise (Dec 27, 2015)

Links to MHS / Island level calcs for Korra?


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## Jag77 (Dec 27, 2015)

Ichigo nuts on him


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## Hao Asakura (Dec 27, 2015)

Avatar is glass cannon and gets stomped


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## Tom Servo (Dec 27, 2015)

SunRise said:


> Links to MHS / Island level calcs for Korra?



Vivi did a quick one for me a few months ago.

Giant Korra flies from Antarctica to Republic City in seconds and crashes into UnaVaatu


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## Haro (Dec 29, 2015)

Nightstorm said:


> >from ke
> 
> Pls no



I do't have a problem with KE calcing if its like a superfast punch or some shit and has a stated force behind it.


Flying KE....yeah no, its with an assumed timeframe too


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## reiko96 (Dec 29, 2015)

Lol. This is spite. Aang gets blitzed. He has never face anyone remotely fast Ichigo as and has human durability.

Ichigo shunpos and decapitates


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## Regicide (Dec 29, 2015)

He ain't reiatsu crushing jack

The best feat for that comes from base Aizen reiatsu crushing Grimmjow

An Aizen who shits on this incarnation of Deathberry-kun

And a Grimmjow who may or may not even cut it in comparison to Deathberry's opponent here regardless


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## Regicide (Dec 29, 2015)

Well, actually

Aang's only demonstrated small building level durability or something

So it wouldn't be implausible for someone of that tier

Strawberry though?

Neither he nor assholes of similar weight class have any reiatsu crush feats on that order of durability


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 29, 2015)

Aang doesnt even have to get island level from Giant Korra Considering Kyoshi's feat is at least island level.

Still gets blitzed probably.


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## SunRise (Dec 30, 2015)

So Aang takes this?


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## Haro (Dec 30, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Aang doesnt even have to get island level from Giant Korra Considering Kyoshi's feat is at least island level.
> 
> Still gets blitzed probably.



ViVi did a rough calc and got MCB

So no, its not island level


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## Wan (Dec 30, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Aang doesnt even have to get island level from Giant Korra Considering Kyoshi's feat is at least island level.
> 
> Still gets blitzed probably.



Kyoshi's feat can't simply be scaled to Aang, either.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 30, 2015)

Ryo Asuka said:


> ViVi did a rough calc and got MCB
> 
> So no, its not island level



can you link it?


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## LazyWaka (Dec 30, 2015)

Ryo Asuka said:


> ViVi did a rough calc and got MCB
> 
> So no, its not island level



Pretty sure moving something that size would require far more power than just MCB.


----------

