# Tsunade vs Danzo



## Itachі (Dec 29, 2015)

*Location:* Samurai Bridge

*Distance:* 25 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* Full

*Restrictions:* Izanagi, Koto, Katsuyu

Danzo starts off unsealed.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 29, 2015)

He gets wrecked without Izanagi. 

When Katsuya is brought out it's over.


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## Bonly (Dec 29, 2015)

Byakugo allows Tsunade to heal from most of Danzo's attacks and with full knowledge she'll be able to avoid/be wary of his suicide sealing jutsu he might use at the end. Otherwise Tsunade makes her way to him and kills him in a single hit eventually. Danzo needs Izanagi in order to have a decent shot at winning, while Koto is a GG so yeah


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## Itachі (Dec 29, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He gets wrecked without Izanagi.
> 
> When Katsuya is brought out it's over.



Katsuyu is restricted. Tsunade definitely has a good shot at winning but I don't think Danzo's getting 'wrecked'.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 29, 2015)

Nice edit, she wasn't restricted when I posted 

So Katsuya GG


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## Itachі (Dec 29, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nice edit, she wasn't restricted when I posted
> 
> So Katsuya GG



I learned from the best.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 29, 2015)

Strat is the specialist 

I'm a mere novice 

Edit:


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## Kinjishi (Dec 29, 2015)

Danzō only really has one tactic he can depend on here -- seal Tsunade's movements with Jigō Jubaku no In and then decapitate her. This strategy requires a close quarters exchange with Tsunade however, which isn't ideal against Tsunade and her power. With the Sharingan and his quick reflexes he definitely could come out of the exchange unharmed, but Tsunade is a skilled fighter in her own right. One well placed strike and Danzō could very well taken out of the fight. It's a toss up really. I'll tentatively and cautiously side with Danzō if only for reasons that he possesses better tactical tools to strike and evade successfully.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 29, 2015)

Baku GG?


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## Ghoztly (Dec 29, 2015)

Tsunade might as well be a walking tank when it comes to this clown, Izanagi practically made him. She would plant him in the earth so hard it would create a crater the size of a football field.


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## Bringer (Dec 29, 2015)

I remember a poster writing a good piece about Tsunade vs Danzo. I'll see if I can dig it up.

edit: Found it. It was Sadness On Wheels. 



Although the write up was discussing the battle in a different scenario and with Katsuyu unrestricted, I still think most of the points still stand. 



> Tsunade:
> 
> She's the fifth Hokage, one of the Sannin, medic extraordinaire, and a master of close combat (5 in databook) with the strength of 100. Known as the Slug Princess that can summon the un-killable Katsuya, (otherwise known as that damn slug you can stab over and over again and it won't do you a bit of good damnit) and a gambler with no luck.
> 
> ...




edit 2: I wish I would've saw the restrictions before I went back to look for this post... Danzo doesn't get Izanagi in this  Tsunade destroys him


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## ~M~ (Dec 29, 2015)

I'm glad you found that post by pirate. She wins even with izanagi. 

I'm not sure if op is trying to hype Danzo or gauge him in which case run a gauntlet


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## wooly Eullerex (Dec 29, 2015)

danzo wins

the bridges linear path makes sure she can't evade his fuu'ton w/o an type of counteroffensive, so and she gets cut down.

he can also land his seal on her if need be as he has a range adv in cqc w/ his wind sword & his general mastery over the element, so I don't believe she can really touch him.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 30, 2015)

Danzo's Futon was able to pierce Susano'o=>Tsunade is sliced into two . Danzo wins even without Izanagi .


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 30, 2015)

Danzou is a Low Mid-Kage, or a High Low Kage, depending on how you look at it.

At any rate, Tsunade is about a tier stronger than he is. For aforementioned reasons, he's going to lose.​​


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## hbcaptain (Dec 30, 2015)

Danzo is a low Kage level without Izanagi and Koto .


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## LostSelf (Dec 30, 2015)

That'll really depend. If Danzo manages to cut her with his Fuuton, byakugo or not, she's going to lose.

Danzo won't let her regenerate like Piccolo does.

If he can't, he'll lose.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Dec 30, 2015)

Danzo seals her movements then cuts her in half.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 30, 2015)

Danzo wins. 
Sharingan precog allows him to read Tsunade and avoid her punches and land hits whenever he can. His fuutons will lethaly wound her anytime they land and senju cells allow him to outlast her. 

Mid dif for Danzo.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 30, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Danzo is a low Kage level without Izanagi and Koto .



Nah, he's still in that general area even with Izanagi. We don't know much about Koto - it affected Mifune very subtly without him noticing. To use it drastically (like make the foe kill themselves or something) might be very obvious to the user, or using it that drastically may not even work.

^Also the prospect of Danzou outlasting Tsunade is laughable. He was trying to conserve chakra all throughout his fight with Sasuke, and he still managed to end up exhausted at the end of it.​​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 30, 2015)

Because Izanagi apparently spends shit ton of chakra, as Karin noted.
Also he was trying to conserve chakra because of a potential fight against Tobi as well.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Nah, he's still in that general area even with Izanagi. We don't know much about Koto - it affected Mifune very subtly without him noticing. To use it drastically (like make the foe kill themselves or something) might be very obvious to the user, or using it that drastically may not even work.​​


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Danzo wins.
> Sharingan precog allows him to read Tsunade and avoid her punches and land hits whenever he can. His fuutons will lethaly wound her anytime they land and senju cells allow him to outlast her.
> 
> Mid dif for Danzo.



Precognition isn't nearly enough for someone two tiers ahead in speed when he has no izanagi or durability feats. Her hits will land and the aoe of destruction she is capable of is great. 

With her own durability and byakugo it's laughable to call anything Danzo dishes lethal, she tanks Madara's susanoo blows.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

Tsunade isn't faster than Danzo, without Sharingan precog he put his hand on MS Sasuke's neck [1] [2] and equaled out in a kenjutsu exchange with him [3].

When he took his Sharingan out, he ran right around Sasuke's Chidori bltiz (after Sasuke got healed by Karin [1], and was later using full Susano & Arrows on Kakashi after this healing) with the granted precog of Shisui's eye [1] [2] , and while mortally wounded (in the chest) and having just ripped off his Senju arm.

Danzo's speed is highly underrated, especially considering the only time he's used his Sharingan to amplify his speed was when he was exhausted, mortally wounded, and with a ripped off arm, and still casually side stepped MS Sasuke's Chidori Blitz. He should easily be on MS Sasuke's speed level with Sharingan out, because he was matching him without it out.

With Katsuya restricted here Danzo takes the cloth off his head, dances around Tsunade's linear blitzes and blasts mouth/arm wind blades to cut off limbs at differing intervals, the wind enhanced kunai would do well to sever her limbs and head as well.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

~M~ said:


> Precognition isn't nearly enough for someone two tiers ahead in speed when he has no izanagi or durability feats. Her hits will land and the aoe of destruction she is capable of is great.
> 
> With her own durability and byakugo it's laughable to call anything Danzo dishes lethal, she tanks Madara's susanoo blows.



Stop taking those drugs. 

>Tsunade two tiers ahead in speed
>Danzo's Futon isn't lethal


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## Bonly (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Stop taking those drugs.
> 
> >Tsunade two tiers ahead in speed
> >Danzo's Futon isn't lethal



To be fair Tsunade went through a jutsu that was suppose to rip her body to shreds and kill her and she survived in Base with a few cuts upon which she healed so to suggest that his Futons aren't lethal to her with Byakugo isn't to far fetched as only cutting her head off would be lethal but that's not to likely to happen


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Bonly said:


> To be fair Tsunade went through a jutsu that was suppose to rip her body to shreds and kill her and she survived in Base with a few cuts upon which she healed so to suggest that his Futons aren't lethal to her with Byakugo isn't to far fetched as only cutting her head off would be lethal but that's not to likely to happen



Surviving that teleportation technique is one thing, surviving an onslaught of Danzo's lethality-oriented Futon is another....


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

Why is fūton more damaging than lightspeed travel again?


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## Bringer (Dec 30, 2015)

Quick question, what's everyone's opinion on Tsunade's strength? Do you guys think she can replicate Sakura's ground punch? Hashirama said that Sakura "might" be stronger than Tsunade after witnessing that punch, meaning that even if Sakura had surpassed Tsunade in strength, the difference is minor. If Tsunade can be scaled to Sakura's punch, then I don't see Danzo escaping the AOE of her ground pound.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

Oh wow he touched Sasuke  except it wasn't even sauce going at full speed he's riding his hawk. who proceeded to kill him ten times. That's not matching Sasuke's speed. That's being vastly inferor overall. 

War arc kage are fast due to simple inflation through the manga but there's nothing to suggest Danzo is lethal besides your simple claim, he had one battle. 

Tsunade has tanked superior attacks and is debatably able to regenerate from anything. It's fanfiction to write about Danzo's lethal breezes


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Quick question, what's everyone's opinion on Tsunade's strength? Do you guys think she can replicate Sakura's ground punch? Hashirama said that Sakura "might" be stronger than Tsunade after witnessing that punch, meaning that even if Sakura had surpassed Tsunade in strength, the difference is minor. If Tsunade can be scaled to Sakura's punch, then I don't see Danzo escaping the AOE of her ground pound.



Sakura is in her prime so she is doubtless stronger but these two are still on par with Ei at very least. 

She shattered the earth for meters with a single finger no effort part 1


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## Bonly (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Surviving that teleportation technique is one thing, surviving an onslaught of Danzo's lethality-oriented Futon is another....



Danzo's Futon haven't done much though, I mean what hype did his Futons get that suggest it's more damaging then Mabui's jutsu? One managed to cut some fodder, one Sasuke dodged some bullets while barely getting hit and moved on and the others where tanked by Susanoo bar the one with Baku which might do quite a bit of damage. Tsunade was hit multiple times by a sword(which has more hype then Danzo's Futons) that was said to be hurt Emma in his staff form which is as hard as diamond and managed to take all that damage and heal from it. Tsunade went through a teleportation jutsu said to rip a person to shreds upon which only the Sandaime had been able to do at that point in time(which means it has more hype then Danzo's Futons) and lived with a few cuts. Madara and his clones stabbed Tsunade multiple times with their big ass Susanoo blades and Tsunade was able to take those hits, heal, and punched Tsunade or throw the sword back at Madara while also being able to take a hit from Madara's Yasaka which got through Gaara's sand mother and left cracks in Onoki's golem.

Again what's the best feats or hype that Danzo's Futon got without Baku that matches up to what Tsunade has been hit with and healed from? Danzo's Futons aren't gonna be all that lethal to her once she has Byakugo up unless he gets a headshot or uses Baku and even then she might live from it so what  ~M~ said isn't to much a stretch really


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

> Oh wow he touched Sasuke  except it wasn't even sauce going at full speed he's riding his hawk. who proceeded to kill him ten times. That's not matching Sasuke's speed. That's being vastly inferor overall.


He leaped off the hawk, that's a high burst of speed, no different than V1 Ei leaping to intercept KCM Naruto's shunshin. There's also the fact the hawk was already flying, so he started with initial velocity, then built on it with his leap. 

It's not just a matter of speed, it's a matter of CQC efficiency. He put his arm on Sasuke's neck and Sasuke couldn't prevent it, and he equaled him out in a kenjutsu exchange- both without the Sharingan. 

He later completely dodged Sasuke's linear Chidori blitz with Sharingan out and Sasuke. 

This means he can avoid Tsunade's swings and cut her up in close or touch her to place a bind, because that's exactly what MS Sasuke would be capable of doing. 

He doesn't need to make seals to perform his futon, he can literally dip a swing and move his hand to release a formidable wind slash. 



> War arc kage are fast due to simple inflation through the manga but there's nothing to suggest Danzo is lethal besides your simple claim, he had one battle.


His one-armed wind slash stopped V2 Susano from moving toward him. 

That alone would fuck Tsunade up, not even getting into his vacuum sphere or vacuum serial blades. 



> Tsunade has tanked superior attacks and is debatably able to regenerate from anything. It's fanfiction to write about Danzo's lethal breezes


She really hasn't tanked many cutting attacks. 

The mini magatama comes to mind, but they were no larger than Madara's head and were propelled by a makeshift mini arm.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Bonly, Tsunade's strong but she's no Sandaime Raikage. Danzo has a large assortment of powerful Futon, she can survive some of them but I don't see how she's somehow resisting getting cut in half.



BringerOfChaos said:


> Quick question, what's everyone's opinion on Tsunade's strength? Do you guys think she can replicate Sakura's ground punch? Hashirama said that Sakura "might" be stronger than Tsunade after witnessing that punch, meaning that even if Sakura had surpassed Tsunade in strength, the difference is minor. If Tsunade can be scaled to Sakura's punch, then I don't see Danzo escaping the AOE of her ground pound.



I don't think that the difference is anything but minor.



Rocky said:


> Why is fūton more damaging than lightspeed travel again?



Surviving lightspeed travel once isn't the same as tanking Danzo's Futon multiple times. Futon is also _meant_ to slice people up and penetrate from the outside, we don't know the mechanics of the teleportation technique.



~M~ said:


> Oh wow he touched Sasuke  except it wasn't even sauce going at full speed he's riding his hawk. who proceeded to kill him ten times. That's not matching Sasuke's speed. That's being vastly inferor overall.
> 
> War arc kage are fast due to simple inflation through the manga but there's nothing to suggest Danzo is lethal besides your simple claim, he had one battle.
> 
> Tsunade has tanked superior attacks and is debatably able to regenerate from anything. It's fanfiction to write about Danzo's lethal breezes



You kind of ignored the other feats he posted. Tsunade's speed is inferior to even Hebi Sasuke, forget about MS Sasuke. I doubt that Tsunade could have tangled with Sasuke in CQC the way Danzo did, she's strong but her attacks can be read.

There's nothing to suggest Danzo's Futon is lethal? Are you saying that Tsunade can survive having her head cut off or her limbs cut off? Because Danzo's Futon certainly can do that. He ripped a hole in Susano'o (with Baku's help) for Christ's sake. How many cutting/slicing attacks has Tsunade tanked? It's much harder to tank Futon compared to blunt force, Danzo can literally slice her in half.


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Quick question, what's everyone's opinion on Tsunade's strength? Do you guys think she can replicate Sakura's ground punch? Hashirama said that Sakura "might" be stronger than Tsunade after witnessing that punch, meaning that even if Sakura had surpassed Tsunade in strength, the difference is minor. If Tsunade can be scaled to Sakura's punch, then I don't see Danzo escaping the AOE of her ground pound.


Tsuande is just as strong as sakura. Remember how old tsuande actually was when hashirama died. He could not have possibly seen her in her prime. And yeah Danzo would be ragdolled by a punch to the ground.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why is fūton more damaging than lightspeed travel again?



Because Tsunade isn't more durable than Ribcage Susano'O and Danzo's fuuton ripped through V3.
That is why.



~M~ said:


> Precognition isn't nearly enough for someone two tiers ahead in speed


stopped reading here. What ? 

There is absolutely no evidence that Tsunade is faster than Danzo, let alone tiers ahead.


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

2015>
Tsuande can't regen limbs>


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## Bonly (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Bonly, Tsunade's strong but she's no Sandaime Raikage.



Never said she was but if she can go through a jutsu and live when he was the only one before hand then that's pretty impressive.



> Danzo has a large assortment of powerful Futon, she can survive some of them but I don't see how she's somehow resisting getting cut in half.



Madara's Susanoo blades didn't go through her or anything else I listed didn't go right through her. Again what feats or hype does Danzo's Futons have that suggest they are gonna do a better job? Maybe with Baku he might have a shot but that's iffy


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> 2015>
> Tsuande can't regen limbs>



But how long does it take her to do it? Danzo's not going to wait for her to regenerate.



Bonly said:


> Never said she was but if she can go through a jutsu and live when he was the only one before hand then that's pretty impressive.



I agree that it's impressive.



> Madara's Susanoo blades didn't go through her or anything else I listed didn't go right through her. Again what feats or hype does Danzo's Futons have that suggest they are gonna do a better job? Maybe with Baku he might have a shot but that's iffy







If blades like that can pierce her, I don't think Futon specialised in cutting are going to be stopped. Obviously Tsunade can tank some of Danzo's Futon but she's not surviving all of them. Danzo's Futon ripped through Susano'o, although it was with Baku's help. She gets split in half like during the Fourth War. She can definitely handle geting stabbed but she's going to have difficulty when her body is sliced through. Danzo has full knowledge so he's not going to underestimate Tsunade either.


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

Maybe one panel? And unless he manages to cut all her limbs off simultaneously, then she continues to move also..


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 30, 2015)

And on top of that : [1]

The sword that went through her, like hot knife through butter, got stopped by ribcage Susano'o.

Danzo's fuuton against a much stronger version of Susano'o : [1]
[1]

If that shit lands, Tsunade might need something more potent than Byakugo to piece herself together.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Maybe one panel? And unless he manages to cut all her limbs off simultaneously, then she continues to move also..



Is there any evidence that she can regenerate entire limbs that fast? I don't recall her being _that_ fast. Danzo can simply cut her whole body in half with a Futon.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

She can't regenerate limbs at all.

That's Judara-level regeneration, Tsunade didn't even have Hashirama-level regeneration, which Madara couldn't regenerate a limb with [1] [2] (took Zetsu's arm and replaced his own).


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> She can't regenerate limbs at all.
> 
> That's Judara-level regeneration, Tsunade didn't even have Hashirama-level regeneration, which Madara couldn't regenerate a limb with [1] [2] (took Zetsu's arm and replaced his own).



Damn, then where did people get the 'Tsunade growing a new head' thing from?


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

I have no idea. It took Judara like 20 seconds to regrow half a torso and full arm with Hashirama's regeneration & Juubi's regeneration.

Took Kaguya at least 10 seconds to regrow her arm, Kaguya was a mixed incarnation of the Juubi, Shinju, and most of the chakra in the world, as well as simply being an Ōtsutsuki herself.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I have no idea. It took Judara like 20 seconds to regrow half a torso and arm with Hashirama's regeneration & Juubi's regeneration.
> 
> Took Kaguya at least 10 seconds to regrow her arm.



Thanks for enlightening me, I wasn't aware of this before. I thought that Tsunade could regrow limbs but it would take at least 30 seconds. I never got the argument of Tsunade using it in battle though, in a 1v1 sitution she'll seldom have time to utilise it unless her opponent has no knowledge. It's like saying Jiraiya counters Amaterasu consistently with his sealing scroll...


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

Well this was obvious when Tsunade replaced Naruto's arm with an artificial arm composed of Hashirama's cells. Basically an admission that she can't do it, and Hashirama's cells alone could. 

Tsunade can inject her Byakugou healing abilities into anyone, I'd imagine she'd of tried to do that for Naruto whom she loves like a son considering she jumped into blades for the kid, after meeting him only a week prior. 

Maybe Sakura will be able to do it before she hits 50.


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Is there any evidence that she can regenerate entire limbs that fast? I don't recall her being _that_ fast. Danzo can simply cut her whole body in half with a Futon.


Well let's see, she healed the effects of the sussano blade in a panel or so: [2]

Then she healed being split in half pretty quickly without byakago: [2]

And then she healed her midsection being shredded by a diamond sword quickly: [2]

Not like she would be hit by his futton anyway, as they lack the speed feats . She jumps over his Dutton, and once she forces CQC then Danzo basically looses.


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> She can't regenerate limbs at all.
> 
> That's Judara-level regeneration, Tsunade didn't even have Hashirama-level regeneration, which Madara couldn't regenerate a limb with [1] [2] (took Zetsu's arm and replaced his own).


When was it stated that tsunade has inferior regen to hashirama? You mean Madara saying that he also could regenerate without seals like tsunade? 

So she can regenrate being split in half, a severed spinal cord, severed intercoastal lungs, and 80% of her organs being destroyed but can't regen a limb? LOL BYE.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Madara said outright that Tsunade's healing was inferior to Hashirama's. 



Likes boss said:


> Well let's see, she healed the effects of the sussano blade in a panel or so: [2]
> 
> Then she healed being split in half pretty quickly without byakago: [2]
> 
> ...



Healing flesh or attaching two halves of a body is completely different to regenerating new limbs. Plus, Tsunade was helped by Karin when she was split in half.

I think that the evidence that DaVizWiz posted that denies Tsunade's ability to regenerate limbs is much better than the evidence that Tsunade can regenerate limbs.


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## LostSelf (Dec 30, 2015)

Why are we assuming Tsunade will instantly regrow a limb if it's cut? Tsunade has never healed anything instantly (at good speed, yes, but not instantly). And when she has been regenerating mid-battle, the enemy was not attacking her, but has had time to do so.

If Tsunade's arm suddenly flies in the skies, Danzo won't stand there looking how Cosmo's magic wand comes and poofs another arm instantly. Not happening. Danzo won't wait, and Byakugo doesn't *poof* another limb like the Fairly Oddparents does with their wands.

I just wonder the amount of time it will take to regen an arm, thinking how she put out Madara's blade, screamed, attacked Madara, he blocked, sent her flying to the floor, and she still was regenerating said wound. Now to think of an entire arm...


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Madara said outright that Tsunade's healing was inferior to Hashirama's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can I get a panel for that ?

No it isn't. What is a limb? Its bone, flesh, blood and veins. Tsuande has regenerated severed spinal cords and many of her organs being destroyed. Saying she cannot regenerate a limb is heavily dumbing down tsunades abilities. Kinda sad actually.☻ 

Katuyu said she could have healed the damage inflicted and tsunadee confirms this later as she heals the damage albiet slowly ( no chakra). Katusyu using tsunades own chakra uses basic medical ninjustu to heal her injuries. Byakago is an enhanced battle orientated version of such. Saying byakago can't regenerate what a Shosen can do is funny.

DaVizWiz didn't provide anything with merit. All he proved was that hashirama has an inferior regeneration tech. Which makes since considering his no named technique obviously should never be compared to Byakago, which is literally the pinnacle of regeneration. Its also not logical to compare hashirama to tsunade in regeneration considering how legendary she is in that aspect.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Can I get a panel for that ?
> 
> No it isn't. What is a limb? Its bone, flesh, blood and veins. Tsuande has regenerated severed spinal cords and many of her organs being destroyed. Saying she cannot regenerate a limb is heavily dumbing down tsunades abilities. Kinda sad actually.☻
> 
> ...



Madara said this before Byakugo was activated, mind you.



Again, there's a difference between repairing damaged flesh and _creating new limbs_. Tsunade's not shown anything to suggest that she could create new limbs to my knowledge. Repairing a wound is different to completely generating a new arm or head.

You're forgetting about Jubi Jin Madara's regeneration and Kaguya's regeneration. And why couldn't Tsunade regenerate Naruto's arm? If it took them a long time, Tsunade's out of luck. Besides, are you implying that Tsunade could grow her limbs back before Danzo sends a Futon her way or rushes her? I find that to be ridiculous.

Also



If she can't repair the damage of FRS, how can she create a new limb? She can't connect cells to nerve channels so she can't possibly create a new arm.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Its also not logical to compare hashirama to tsunade in regeneration considering how legendary she is in that aspect.



Oh please. 

Madara dropped his pants and spent a few pages taking a shit on Tsunade's medical prowess. It was literally a roast. He called her techniques worthless in the face of Hashirama's. They didn't even compare. [1][2]

When she unveiled Super Creation Rebirth, the_ first thing he did_ was compare it to Hashirama. [3] It is not "illogical" to compare Hashirama to Tsunade in ninjutsu. Come on now...


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Except people throughout this thread have posted evidence...

Where does it say that she didn't heal Naruto's arm because Byakugo is a dangerous Jutsu? Are you pulling this out of your ass? 

You're pretending like Tsunade is immortal, she's not.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

Where is the speed and power of Danzo? Tsunade battled with Madara, you think his battle against ms sauce means shit? 

You think his futon match any of the injuries she sustained? How did he lose? On gods earth, how. Did. He. Lose.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

~M~ said:


> Where is the speed and power of Danzo? Tsunade battled with Madara, you think his battle against ms sauce means shit?
> 
> You think his futon match any of the injuries she sustained? How did he lose? On gods earth, how. Did. He. Lose.



Tsunade battled against a jobbing Madara that was bored as fuck. Do you think Madara wouldn't have killed the Kage if he wanted to? Didn't Edo Madara nearly blitz Naruto in the War Arc? 

Danzo's Futon is based on fucking cutting, Tsunade sustained stab woulds. This can still happen.



Do you think that it's impossible for a kunai to decapitate Tsunade or chop off her limbs? Tsunade can be stabbed, she can be penetrated. That's proof enough that Danzo's Jutsu will cut through her.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 30, 2015)

Tbf tsunade has boasted that her creation rebirth(the basis for byakugo) can regenerate limbs.


The speed is dubious however because it hasn't really been tested. Baku enhanced wind blades might be out of her paygrade.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

When did Danzo slice off anyone's limb?


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Madara said this before Byakugo was activated, mind you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That proves my point. He shitted on her medical ninjutsu before she pulled out byakago which is not only the pinnacle of regeneration but also has far more hype than hashirama. Hashirama has no regeneration hype outside Madara wanking him. Then there's concrete feats which I've already provided. 

I've already proven to you why she can create a new arm. She has created new organs and repaired her spinal cord when nerve cells are suppose to be impossible to regenerate.

Juubi Madara and Kaguya have already regenerated more than just limbs so...? Idk why being god tier makes their regen> Tsunade's anyway.

☻I already stated that unless he completely immobilizes her then she's fine.

FRS messes with the chakra network, that's the difference. That was most likely before the creation of Byakago anyway. Naruto and sasuke don't have byakago or SS so they cannot repair limbs.


I'll comment later when I'm not busy, for a more detailed post.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

Lmao 

Does Danzo even say he can slice through a limb? What hype statements does he have? 

At least Tsunade's statement is both hype and realistic. 

We have Danzo proving imperfect susanoo is not air tight but Tsunade is rock hard as well being able to bust Susanoo


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

~M~ said:


> When did Danzo slice off anyone's limb?



If Danzo can cut a hole in Susano'o, he can slice off someone's limb. If Tsunade's skin isn't resistant to penetration from Kusanagi then she's not resistant to Futon. 



Likes boss said:


> That proves my point. He shitted on her medical ninjutsu before she pulled out byakago which is not only the pinnacle of regeneration but also has far more hype than hashirama. Hashirama has no regeneration hype outside Madara wanking him. Then there's concrete feats which I've already provided.
> 
> I've already proven to you why she can create a new arm. She has created new organs and repaired her spinal cord when nerve cells are suppose to be impossible to regenerate.
> 
> ...



You haven't proved anything. She can heal wounds but she's never been shown to completely create a new part of her body. 

You think that the regeneration of a Jubi Jinchuriki can be inferior to Tsunade's regeneration ability? 

How can Tsunade completely create a new cell/chakra network if she can't repair damaged ones? If she's creating a new arm, she literally has to create that.

Can't all of Byakugo's power be transferred to another person? Sakura did it to Obito, iirc.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 30, 2015)

Tsunade and Sakura can only use Sōzō Saisei on themselves.

What they can give to other people is stored up _Chakra_.



Itachі said:


> Yeah, I've seen that but there's a lack of evidence to actually back up her words.



Her words _are_ the evidence. There is no good reason to think she didn't know what she was talking about.

Sōzō Saisei is the ultimate medical Ninjutsu _because of_ the ability to rebuild organs and limbs.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

The jubi isn't perfect it was defeated too, get over it. Tsunade can't be scaled to the Jubi and yet fodder for limb slicing at the same time.

The comparison has no merit. Her regeneration speed surpassing the ultimate creations makes as much sense as the ultimate creation being defeated


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

~M~ said:


> The jubi isn't perfect it was defeated too, get over it. Tsunade can't be scaled to the Jubi and yet fodder for limb slicing at the same time.



What are you talking about? DaVizWiz's point is that even the regeneration of Jubi Jinchuriki took a long time and the regeneration of a Jubi Jin is 99% likely to be better than Tsunade's.



FlamingRain said:


> Her words _are_ the evidence. There is no good reason to think she didn't know what she was talking about.



I would take it at face value but if she couldn't heal Naruto's damaged arm, how could she completely create a new one?

Even if she can regenerate limbs, it wouldn't be practical in the midst of battle.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 30, 2015)

What she could do to Naruto's arm doesn't have much of anything to do with what she could do to herself using Sōzō Saisei.

And why would it not be practical in the midst of battle? That is kind of _what Sōzō Saisei is for_.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> What she could do to Naruto's arm doesn't have much of anything to do with what she could do for herself.
> 
> And why would it not be practical in the midst of battle? That is kind of _what Sōzō Saisei is for_.



Because her opponents aren't going to wait for 20 seconds while she regrows her legs.



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> No real reason to throw them out either tho. The evidence is that it's the pinnacle of medical ninjutsu she would know the limits of a tech she created. It wasn't made apparent that she was bullshitting or lying.
> 
> Posters believe that sasuke is resistant to various poisons because of kakashi's statment despite no showings of feats saying so. People believe shinobi have natures they never shown in series before because of a databook. I don't think we should cherry pick which claims that lack on panel evidence we get to use.



I'm not completely ruling out her abilities to regen limbs but I think that there's a lack of evidence. Her word is the only solid thing, that I've encountered anyway.


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> If Danzo can cut a hole in Susano'o, he can slice off someone's limb. If Tsunade's skin isn't resistant to penetration from Kusanagi then she's not resistant to Futon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll reply in vast detail when I get home, however I'm pretty sure FlamingRain is going to explain why she can regrow limbs by the time I get back.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Got me thinking though, how could Tsunade heal Orochimaru's arms if she couldn't heal Naruto's? 



Likes boss said:


> I'll reply in vast detail when I get home, however I'm pretty sure FlamingRain is going to explain why she can regrow limbs by the time I get back.



Alright, I'm counting on him to enlighten me. Sure that he knows much more about Tsunade's abilities than me.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

So now that we've refused to believe canon statements and proof can we find some that Danzo can hurt her 

Break down the pattern of the battle 

Tell me when he summons and how he's going to match her speed with his apparent mastery of precognition, shown against ms Sasuke when she can keep up with a 'messing around' Madara 


Apparently Danzo is somewhere above messing around Madara but below ms sauce
And they're a ballpark ahead of Tsunade


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

~M~ said:


> So now that we've refused to believe canon statements and proof can we find some that Danzo can hurt her
> 
> Break down the pattern of the battle
> 
> ...



Danzo's Futon _will_ cut through her. Whether she is able to regenerate from that or not is an entirely different matter. If you agree that Tsunade's throat is not immune to a kunai then she's getting cut up. Unless you think that Tsunade's skin itself is impervious to any sort of penetration...

Match her speed? Tsunade's slower than Danzo, I don't peg him to be as fast as MS Sasuke but he's faster than Tsunade imo. Why are you making all of these weird jumps, can't you debate straight? I never said that Danzo is above messing a non-serious Madara. I never mentioned that Danzo is a 'mastery of precognition' either.

Note that I'm not saying that Danzo would win, I'm just contesting your points about Tsunade's speed and the lethality of Danzo's Futon.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

Without a doubt he is slower so precognition is required to avoid lethal damage. And who cares if she's sliced. Who says it will go through her. Where's your hype or calc 

He will summon as she releases her seal perhaps. Then there's the possibility of it doing more damage. But again, she's withstood greater blows with just cuts.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

~M~ said:


> Without a doubt he is slower so precognition is required to avoid lethal damage. And who cares if she's sliced. Who says it will go through her. Where's your hype or calc
> 
> He will summon as she releases her seal perhaps. Then there's the possibility of it doing more damage. But again, she's withstood greater blows with just cuts.



Where's your proof that Tsunade is two tiers above Danzo in speed? 

Because Tsunade's not impervious to getting stabbed, as we've seen many times in the Manga.

Danzo has full knowledge and he knows of Tsunade's abilities, so he's more likely to summon Baku. Tsunade also has full knowledge and knows of Danzo's Futon techniques so she's likely to use Byakugo, yes.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 30, 2015)

What exactly is stopping Tsunade from using her strength and the Chakra-cling method to go up to Baku and send it flying while Danzō goes across the side of the bridge and then pops up on the other side?



Itachі said:


> Because her opponents aren't going to wait for 20 seconds while she regrows her legs.



How'd you arrive at that figure, though?

It could be regenerated from very fast like any other injury and simply use more Chakra in that time frame. I mean the Susano'o blade wounds didn't take noticeably longer to be regenerated from than the cuts Tsunade got from Tensō no Jutsu even though they were more severe.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

Yeah. Stabbed by one) a force strong enough to damage diamond and two) susano 

Guess what. Piercing damage goes deeper than slicing. 

To slice through the entire limb, it's on par with the destructive forces of those attacks. And Danzo never showed that. Never. 

Tsunade is a 5 in taijutsu. Danzo is an old weathered man who lost to sauce. I'm not going to bother doing war arc calcs just to have Tsunade likely blitz Danzo I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt. 

Because he has one battle and is a terrible comparison against someone who has consistent success.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> How'd you arrive at that figure, though?
> 
> It could be regenerated from very fast like any other injury and simply use more Chakra in that time frame. I mean the Susano'o blade wounds didn't take noticeably longer to be regenerated from than the cuts Tsunade got from Tensō no Jutsu even though they were more severe.



As DaVizWiz said, it took a decent amount of time for Kaguya and Madara to heal themselves. I'm not saying that there's a definite figure, just that I don't believe that it's efficient enough to be used in battle against competent opponents with knowledge.



~M~ said:


> Yeah. Stabbed by one) a force strong enough to damage diamond and two) susano
> 
> Guess what. Piercing damage goes deeper than slicing.
> 
> ...



And Danzo's Futon ripped a hole in Susano'o. That's how strong his Futon was.

Tsunade's obviously the superior in Taijutsu. Again, why do you keep mentioning that Danzo lost to Sasuke? Sasuke isn't Tsunade, lmao. Tsunade has zero chance of blitzing Danzo, he reacted to a Susano'o arrow and changed its trajectory. A Susano'o arrow that Kakashi had to use Kamui on to avoid.

I'm going to ask you this; do you believe that a kunai could penetrate Tsunade's body?


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## Kellogem (Dec 30, 2015)

Tsunade is made of diamond or what now, an attack going through a Sussanoo wouldnt be able to sever her neck or limbs? that shit would cut her up for good from what I can tell, maybe to shreds.

piercing damage only goes deeper than slicing if you dont slice through something completely (hell, even thats not necessarily true).

anyway, people convinced me Danzou would win this, I dont see the proof Tsunade can instantaneously regenerate limbs (or regenerate limbs at all as a matter of fact), while it looks pretty obvious to me Danzous fuuton attacks are capable of cutting someone in half with the force it demonstrated and his speed feats are convincing as well..Id say he wins 6-7 times out of 10 at least.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> As DaVizWiz said, it took a decent amount of time for Kaguya and Madara to heal themselves. I'm not saying that there's a definite figure, just that I don't believe that it's efficient enough to be used in battle against competent opponents with knowledge.



It didn't take Madara very long at all.

If someone would remind me what chapter Kaguya regenerated in I'd appreciate it.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

He dodged a susanoo arrow.... After being killed by one. So he's not faster, he had a second chance. 

Secondly he created a gap in susanoo where again I'll ask how does that tell me Tsunade's getting cut in half. Susanoo was unable to move in the wind vortex but Tsunade can merely shatter the bridge and proceede to end Danzo's one chance of landing a blow, should he indeed manage it. 

And finally no she is not diamond hard but blows from susanoo that killed Danzo, apart from the blades, did not damage her. So Danzo must be stronger in force than Madara


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It didn't take Madara very long at all.
> 
> If someone would remind me what chapter Kaguya regenerated in I'd appreciate it.



Chapter 687 was where she lost it, I think. Her arm appeared again in 689.



~M~ said:


> He dodged a susanoo arrow.... After being killed by one. So he's not faster, he had a second chance.
> 
> Secondly he created a gap in susanoo where again I'll ask how does that tell me Tsunade's getting cut in half. Susanoo was unable to move in the wind vortex but Tsunade can merely shatter the bridge and proceede to end Danzo's one chance of landing a blow, should he indeed manage it.
> 
> And finally no she is not diamond hard but blows from susanoo that killed Danzo, apart from the blades, did not damage her. So Danzo must be stronger in force than Madara



He used Mokuton to redirect its trajectory and when Sasuke used a Susano'o arrow again he used Izanagi.

If you think that Tsunade's more durable than Susano'o I think we should just stop right here.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

Ignore what you will, you have the entire thread


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

~M~ said:


> Ignore what you will, you have the entire thread



I'm not ignoring anything, you're implying that Tsunade's more resilient than Sasuke's Susano'o. Do you think that Kusanagi would easily slice through Susano'o?


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## FlamingRain (Dec 30, 2015)

Kind of weird since that big ball of Bijū ghosts or whatever came out of that spot.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

I'm implying there's no evidence she can be cut through and not merely damaged when susanoo has only a gap. Why didn't he slice Sasuke from the beginning if his cutting power is so great? He is conserving chakra but by avoiding this feat he fails to succede both in the battle and to prove his cutting prowess. 

Chap 478 Danzo has literally by his own statement no time for seals and in essence tanks the hit with his wood release to deflect it. Later he dies to a direct hit. He is clearly vastly slower. 

Tsunade is durable enough to withstand a cutting blow from susanoo. That's all I need to be convinced she will not be sliced in half, through a limb, or in any way besides into the body, before killing him with taijutsu.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

~M~ said:


> I'm implying there's no evidence she can be cut through and not merely damaged when susanoo has only a gap. Why didn't he slice Sasuke from the beginning if his cutting power is so great? He is conserving chakra but by avoiding this feat he fails to succede both in the battle and to prove his cutting prowess.
> 
> Chap 478 Danzo has literally by his own statement no time for seals and in essence tanks the hit with his wood release to deflect it. Later he dies to a direct hit. He is clearly vastly slower.
> 
> Tsunade is durable enough to withstand a cutting blow from susanoo. That's all I need to be convinced she will not be sliced in half, through a limb, or in any way besides into the body, before killing him with taijutsu.



He did try to cut Sasuke with Futon but Sasuke pretty much dodged all of them. Sasuke only got caught on the shoulder by Danzo's Futon bullet which only cut him a little bit.

He had no time for seals in that scenario but he definitely reacted to it alright. He didn't 'tank' the arrow, he used Mokuton to change its trajectory. Danzo wasn't hit by it.



She's durable enough to withstand a cutting blow but she's out of the game when she's slashed in half. Like she eventually was.


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## LostSelf (Dec 30, 2015)

But kakashi also couldn't dodge them properly. And he has Sharingan precog. and is faster.

I don't remember at what distance were both shot, though.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)




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## Yoko (Dec 30, 2015)

Danzo with Sharingan unveiled allows him to read and dodge Tsunade's linear assaults and tag her with his multitude of cutting Futons.  With full knowledge on her regeneration, he will aim for more dangerous attacks (like his Futon "Eiso") and try chopping off limbs / head, which should bypass her regeneration or at least deplete her chakra enough to leave her vulnerable enough for a finisher.

There is little to support limb regeneration to begin with.  We have seen Madara with Hashirama's regeneration (while in Sage Mode) resort to reattachment. and Madara has compared Tsunade's regeneration to Hashirama's.  Beyond that, you're going to enter Juubi Jinchuuriki territory which is pushing it, and even for them it wasn't instant enough to save them from a potential follow up attack.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

To be fair though, we don't know much about Hashirama's regeneration. Madara seemed to only equate Tsunade's Jutsu to Hashirama's because it didn't require a seal.


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## Yoko (Dec 30, 2015)

If it was better, I'd think he'd have noted it.  Instead, he literally called it "the same ability Hashirama possessed."


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Yoko said:


> If it was better, I'd think he'd have noted it.  Instead, he literally called it "the same ability Hashirama possessed."



He said that her Jutsu was inferior to Hashirama's and stated that Hashirama didn't even have to use seals, after she used Byakugo which lacked seals he said that they were equal. Madara didn't know about Tsunade's  so that wouldn't have factored into his decision to equate the two Jutsu. It would be a different story if he chopped of her arm, she failed to grow a new one and he then said it. Not saying that Byakugo is better, just that Madara's statement wasn't covering all the bases.


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## Yoko (Dec 30, 2015)

Tsunade saying she can regenerate limbs isn't proof that she can actually regenerate limbs.  The burden of proof is on Tsunade to prove she can, not on me that she can't.  

What we do know is that a Sage Mode user with regeneration that was compared to Tsunade's failed to accomplish that feat.  I'm not going to arbitrarily award her with it based on an unproven statement, anymore so than I would award Kakashi the ability to cut through Perfect Susano'o with Raikiri because he said it could "cut through anything."


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

I'm not saying she can, just that Madara didn't make his decision to equate the two Jutsu based on decent information.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

Kaguya got it severed here [1]

Two chapters later, after a scuffle with PS Sasuke, and RSM Naruto's 9 Rasenshuriken attack which released the bijuu from her arm wound, chakra arms went after Sakura, got saved, got attacked by Kakashi's Susano, transferred the rabbit into a massive TSB, then she's shown with the arm regenerated [2], that might have been over a minute. 

Judara's took at least 20 seconds if we also take into consideration the debris stopped falling and the smoke was gone by the time we saw the aftermath meaning he had more time to start the healing process before he even appeared, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]


Healing:

Kaguya (limb healing/will regenerate from anything) > Juubi Jin w/Hashirama cells (limb/torso healing) > Hashirama (no limb healing/over time can recreate full body structure [Obito]) > Tsunade (no limb healing)


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## FlamingRain (Dec 30, 2015)

Since Jūdara, even before absorbing the tree, regenerated a larger wound faster than Kaguya that tells you there's more to it than the power of the user.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

Kaguya kept getting attacked and had to retaliate. Sasuke slashed her before she healed any part of the arm, Naruto put 9 Rasenshuriken in her before she healed it, she came out of the attack without the arm healed and released a rabbit form of the bijuu. 

If Kaguya couldn't heal prior to being attacked several times, Tsunade with considerably weaker healing powers has no chance of healing prior to being follow up attacked, and that's assuming she can even heal limbs which is a huge leap for anyone. 

Limb or full body regeneration is literally a series breaking power, I've seen nothing that indicates Tsunade possessed this power. She regenerated from piercing damage and cut tissue, but never has any part of her been severed and re-grown.

Healing puncture wounds is different then *regrowing* an entire limb. 

She loses a leg at any point, Danzo takes advantage of that and takes her head off with a wind slash while she's on one leg.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Healing puncture wounds is different then *regrowing* an entire limb.



Pretty much what I've been trying to say. Imagine how complicated that is. It's a completely different ballpark, it's like saying Kakashi can use Chidori Eiso because he has the ability to perform Raikiri. Healing damaged flesh is very different to creating a whole arm.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 30, 2015)

Kaguya hit Sasuke first and wasn't actually hit by that sword slash back. She should have been able to regenerate that arm while doing that because Madara could launch an attack at Gai while his arm was still regenerating, but it hadn't started yet, so there's more to consider than the power of the person regenerating.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

Hard to tell whether or not that slashed her or she flew above it while ducting?

Eh.. not sure. [1]


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## Kellogem (Dec 30, 2015)

~M~ said:


> Secondly he created a gap in susanoo where again I'll ask how does that tell me Tsunade's getting cut in half. Susanoo was unable to move in the wind vortex but Tsunade can merely shatter the bridge and proceede to end Danzo's one chance of landing a blow, should he indeed manage it.




I thought we were talking about what would happen if Danzous cutting attacks hit her... whatever they can is a different matter, but generally Danzou showed reaction and speed with the sharingan surpassing Tsunades, and since his attacks are long ranged (the wind blades) as well as short (the wind coat on the kunai), he has an advantage as he can start attacking without and before Tsunade closes in - he doesnt have to settle it in a cqc, but keeping some distance, while Tsunade doesnt really have a mean to attack long or mid range (you can argue she can throw rocks, but that would be slow and clumsy)

in that specific scenario Baku would either suck Tsunade in leaving her vulnerable in the air, or she would have to stick to the ground, either way she wouldnt be able to dodge Danzous air blades from behind - if she jumps, she got sucked toward that things mouth, if she stays, she got hit. shattering the bridge would only leave Tsunade vulnerable in the air again, while Danzou can just fire his air blades at her again and she would have no means to dodge them.

btw just a reminder, Danzou can also maneuver in the air, so destroying their foothold would only put Tsunade in more of a disadvantage. 
([1])





> And finally no she is not diamond hard but blows from susanoo that killed Danzo, apart from the blades, did not damage her. So Danzo must be stronger in force than Madara



point is _blows_

a blunt force had to be much greater to rip someone apart then one behind a cutting attack.

blunt force is no good against Tsunade as she can easily heal crushed organs and bones, but cutting her in 2 shouldnt be any harder than anyone human with the right attacks, and Im pretty sure a fuuton based attack specialized in cutting would do the job. and one able to get through Susanoo defense wouldnt get stopped by her abs.


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## Bonly (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> If blades like that can pierce her, I don't think Futon specialised in cutting are going to be stopped. Obviously Tsunade can tank some of Danzo's Futon but she's not surviving all of them. Danzo's Futon ripped through Susano'o, although it was with Baku's help. She gets split in half like during the Fourth War. She can definitely handle geting stabbed but she's going to have difficulty when her body is sliced through. Danzo has full knowledge so he's not going to underestimate Tsunade either.



I wasn't clear with that post as I did it right before I left out for work. When I said "Madara's Susanoo blades didn't go through" I meant that those things failed to cut her in half upon which you said "I don't see how she's somehow resisting getting cut in half."

As yourself posted Tsunade got cut through alright but she wasn't cut in half now was she? Now what does she have to resist getting cut in half by all of those? Not much besides her own body toughness which was the point. Again what feats or hype does Danzo's Futon have to suggest they are gonna do a better job then Orochi's blade,Madara's Susanoo blade, ect.?


----------



## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Bonly said:


> I wasn't clear with that post as I did it right before I left out for work. When I said "Madara's Susanoo blades didn't go through" I meant that those things failed to cut her in half upon which you said "I don't see how she's somehow resisting getting cut in half."
> 
> As yourself posted Tsunade got cut through alright but she wasn't cut in half now was she? Now what does she have to resist getting cut in half by all of those? Not much besides her own body toughness which was the point. Again what feats or hype does Danzo's Futon have to suggest they are gonna do a better job then Orochi's blade,Madara's Susanoo blade, ect.?



That type of attack is unlikely to cut her in half though. If Tsunade wasn't cut in half by an attack like this, then I would consider it hard for her to be cut in half.

Danzo's Futon lack in feats and hype but Tsunade hasn't endured enough attacks similar to Futon to suggest that she could resist getting ripped.


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

This battle is 50 50. 

Like I said, Danzo only had one fight. His ability is hard to gague and it relies on one or the other dealing a critical blow to win. 

Limb regeneration is a dumb argument though idk why you guys care how long it takes  the point isn't that it's battle ready it's that she isn't a cripple after fights so a 'tank'. That doesn't seem unacceptable


----------



## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

~M~ said:


> This battle is 50 50.
> 
> Like I said, Danzo only had one fight. His ability is hard to gague and it relies on one or the other dealing a critical blow to win.
> 
> Limb regeneration is a dumb argument though idk why you guys care how long it takes  the point isn't that it's battle ready it's that she isn't a cripple after fights so a 'tank'. That doesn't seem unacceptable



What? If it isn't useful in battle then it has no place being mentioned. It does matter, if Tsunade could regenerate limbs in a second it would be a massive advantage, it taking 30 seconds for her to do so however would make it useless in many situations. An opponent with full knowledge isn't going to stand there and wait for Tsunade's limbs to regen...


----------



## Bonly (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> That type of attack is unlikely to cut her in half though. If Tsunade wasn't cut in half by an attack like this, then I would consider it hard for her to be cut in half.
> 
> Danzo's Futon lack in feats and hype but Tsunade hasn't endured enough attacks similar to Futon to suggest that she could resist getting ripped.



If I took a big ass sword(or two since she did that two) like that I'm pretty sure you'd be cut in half afterwords.

She went through a jutsu that actually rips the entire body to shreds and it left multiple cuts on her and she lived. Danzo's Futons cut. Mabui's Jutsu cuts. Tsunade lived. Seems like Tsunade endured that.

Orochi's blade which is strong enough to hurt Emma in his staff form which is as hard as diamond. Orochi used that blade to not only stab Tsunade in the chest but cut her multiple times. Orochi's blade cuts. Danzo's Futon cuts. Seem like she endured that.

Tsuande got stabbed by multiple Susanoo blades and lived and was fine. Susanoo blades cuts. Danzo Futon cuts. She endured that.

But somehow she hasn't endured enough to suggest she can resist getting ripped when the above failed to hurt her in half and the above have better hype and/or feats then Danzo's Futon upon which you acknowledge lacks in both? And somehow Danzo is getting the benefit of the doubt over Tsunade? Yeah ok that makes sense


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## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

Of course it matters if it was canon but instead of arguing the concension could be she spoke the truth but can't use it in battle. 

I wouldn't use regenerating a limb as a battle feat because it's never been done, but at a manga discussion level, it would simply make the most sense


----------



## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Bonly said:


> If I took a big ass sword(or two since she did that two) like that I'm pretty sure you'd be cut in half afterwords.
> 
> She went through a jutsu that actually rips the entire body to shreds and it left multiple cuts on her and she lived. Danzo's Futons cut. Mabui's Jutsu cuts. Tsunade lived. Seems like Tsunade endured that.
> 
> ...



If Susano'o slashed her horizontally then I think that she would be cut in half, it looks like she was just stabbed from behind. Anyway, how was Tsunade actually get split in half during the war? I don't ever recall it being said.

We don't know the mechanics of Mabui's Jutsu. I believe that Samehada has also been described to rip people to shreds but Tsunade wouldn't have trouble with that. It is definitely a valid feat but I find that it's difficult to quantify and compare.

But did Orochimaru try to slash her like Sasuke tried (successfully) to bisect Madara? Even so, I don't think that Kusanagi would fare well against a weapon with Chakra channelled through it.

Futon has been shown to cut straight through shit, if you show me Tsunade resist getting bisected by something equal to Danzo's Futon I'll agree with you.


----------



## Mithos (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> She's durable enough to withstand a cutting blow but she's out of the game when she's slashed in half. Like she eventually was.



With Byakugou afterwards she won't lose consciousness like she did when she was split in half and pinned under a tree. 

If it's faster I don't see why Tsunade couldn't grab her legs and reattach them. _That_ should definitely heal very quickly. 

(Though I don't see Tsunade getting sliced in half by Danzou)


----------



## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> With Byakugou afterwards she won't lose consciousness like she did when she was split in half and pinned under a tree.
> 
> If it's faster I don't see why Tsunade couldn't grab her legs and reattach them. _That_ should definitely heal very quickly.
> 
> (Though I don't see Tsunade getting sliced in half by Danzou)



And you think Danzo is incapable of landing a killing blow during that period of time?


----------



## Bonly (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> If you show me Tsunade resist getting bisected by something equal to Danzo's Futon I'll agree with you.



Can you show me what's equal to Danzo's Futon because from what I remember they only cut some fodder(who lived), left cuts on Sasuke(the bullets) and got effortlessly blocked by Susanoo meaning we don't know the how well they really stack up. So outside of Baku's help what's the best that they did for me show her taking?


----------



## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Can you show me what's equal to Danzo's Futon because from what I remember they only cut some fodder(who lived), left cuts on Sasuke(the bullets) and got effortlessly blocked by Susanoo meaning we don't know the how well they really stack up. So outside of Baku's help what's the best that they did for me show her taking?



I don't know man, if Tsunade resists getting chopped in half by Sasuke channeling Raiton Chakra through his sword then I'm all game.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> I don't know man, if Tsunade resists getting chopped in half by Sasuke channeling Raiton Chakra through his sword then I'm all game.





So you don't know what is equal to Danzo's Futons. 

And yet you want me to show something equal to his Futons upon which you don't know what those and show them up against Tsunade? 

But you wanna go with Sasuke's sword which she hasn't gone up against?

Rather then going with multiple things that have better hype and feats then what Danzo Futons have?


----------



## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Bonly said:


> So you don't know what is equal to Danzo's Futons.
> 
> And yet you want me to show something equal to his Futons upon which you don't know what those and show them up against Tsunade?
> 
> ...



As you said before, they lack feats so it's hard to compare to other Jutsu. I'd say that if Tsunade can survive a bisecting attempt by a sword that has Chakra running through it [Either Raiton or Futon] then she has a good chance of surviving most of Danzo's Futon. Futon is supposed to be the pinnacle in terms of cutting ability.

You only really posted examples of Tsunade getting stabbed or slashed, I don't remember you posting any examples of anyone trying to bisect Tsunade and failing.


----------



## ~M~ (Dec 30, 2015)

I promise everyone. 100 battles 50 to each. A single wrong move gets either killed.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 30, 2015)

Still kind of interested:



> What exactly is stopping Tsunade from using her strength and the Chakra-cling method to go up to Baku and send it flying while Danzō goes across the side of the bridge and then pops up on the other side?


----------



## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

I imagine that Danzo with full knowledge would keep Baku next to him, knowing how useful Baku is to him and how dangerous Tsunade is. Danzo can keep her at bay by spewing Futon at her, she's going to have a harder time dodging with Baku's suction.


----------



## ~M~ (Dec 31, 2015)

Tbh she could probably lift Baku given she lifted Gamabunta's blade. But in the wind vortex she'll move slow as fuck even with chakra at the feet and I think destroying the bridge would be far more advantageous


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 31, 2015)

If Baku is _next to_ Danzō, the suction of the tapir would not enhance a Fūton launched at Tsunade.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 31, 2015)

Itachі said:


> As you said before, they lack feats so it's hard to compare to other Jutsu. I'd say that if Tsunade can survive a bisecting attempt by a sword that has Chakra running through it then she has a good chance of surviving most of Danzo's Futon.
> 
> You only really posted examples of Tsunade getting stabbed or slashed, I don't remember you posting any examples of anyone trying to bisect Tsunade and failing.



Can you show me anyone trying to bisect her?


----------



## Itachі (Dec 31, 2015)

~M~ said:


> Tbh she could probably lift Baku given she lifted Gamabunta's blade. But in the wind vortex she'll move slow as fuck even with chakra at the feet and I think destroying the bridge would be far more advantageous



She doesn't even have to lift Baku lol, if she's close enough to Baku to be able to lift him up she's better off just landing a finishing blow.


----------



## Itachі (Dec 31, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Can you show me anyone trying to bisect her?



Nah, I don't recall anyone trying to do so.



FlamingRain said:


> If Baku is _next to_ Danzō, the suction of the tapir would not enhance a Fūton launched at Tsunade.



Baku's range is massive.


----------



## ~M~ (Dec 31, 2015)

That's the thing he's saying if Baku can only suck inward that's counter to wind forward  but maybe he could blow


----------



## Bonly (Dec 31, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Nah, I don't recall anyone trying to do so.



Yeah I thought, thing is, when someone goes to slash at Tsunade, how can you tell if said person goal is just to slash her or try to bisect her?


----------



## ~M~ (Dec 31, 2015)

If you're slashing at someone you're hoping to do as much as possible there isn't really a goal unless it's common knowledge Tsunade is near immortal in a way


----------



## Itachі (Dec 31, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Yeah I thought, thing is, when someone goes to slash at Tsunade, how can you tell if said person goal is just to slash her or try to bisect her?



If the sword's tip is further than the back/end of the target's body.



~M~ said:


> That's the thing he's saying if Baku can only suck inward that's counter to wind forward  but maybe he could blow



Oh, yeah, that's true.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 31, 2015)

Itachі said:


> If the sword's tip is further than the back/end of the target's body.



So kinda like this?


----------



## Itachі (Dec 31, 2015)

Bonly said:


> So kinda like this?



Good feat but I wouldn't count that as a bisection attempt since Orochimaru's goal was simply to slash Naruto, his target wasn't Tsunade and his goal wasn't to bisect.


----------



## Bringer (Dec 31, 2015)

Why can't she regenerate a limb? She can regenerate bone, organs, blood, etc, but not an arm? Are arms made out of something different? 

Also if Tsunade wasn't durable(not resilient, *durable*), then Orochimaru's blade should've cleaved in half. It can cut diamonds, so Tsunade should've been butter and his sword should've been a hot knife. However, it couldn't even bypass her bones.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 31, 2015)

~M~ said:


> Yeah. Stabbed by one) a force strong enough to damage diamond and two) susano
> 
> Guess what. Piercing damage goes deeper than slicing.
> 
> ...







Grimmjowsensei said:


> And on top of that : this
> 
> The sword that went through her, like hot knife through butter, got stopped by ribcage Susano'o.
> 
> ...



Ribcage Susano'o is more durable than Tsunade.
Danzo's fuuton can slash V3 Susano'O

Connect the fucking dots.


----------



## Saru (Dec 31, 2015)

Tsunade wins mid-diff at most. The only threat to her is Baku, and when it starts to suck Tsunade in, she will destroy the entire bridge. She should be able to resist the power of Baku's suction enough to do this with her Herculean strength if Sasuke's Susano'o didn't get outright yanked away.

Tsunade should be able to dodge Danzo's Fuuton. 

That leaves taijutsu as Danzo's only option, and we all know how that will turn out. Sharingan precognition means dick when Danzo isn't fast enough to outright kill her in CQC. If he ever lands a strike, they exchange blows at best and Tsunade blows a hole in Danzo's body.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 31, 2015)

I don't think she'd let herself get chopped to bits by a Baku-powered fūton. She could just let Baku eat her...as in- chakra-torpedo off of the ground right into Baku's mouth and out the back of its asshole.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 31, 2015)

Or she instinctively tries to grab something and gets blindsided by a fuuton. 
Just like Sasuke was. Because I'm pretty sure Sasuke would be able to survive Baku with Susano'o , if he really had to.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 31, 2015)

...and to dodge the wind blades, she could just launch herself at Baku. She'll go in with the wind blades not far behind, and she'll come out the other end while the blades ram into Baku.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 31, 2015)

I don't think she'd travel faster than wind blades.


----------



## ~M~ (Dec 31, 2015)

Baku dies in one punch 

Whether or not Danzo can cut a person in half or lethally afterwards remains the vague question.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 31, 2015)

If you ignore the manga.
But then pretty much everything remains vague.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 31, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think she'd travel faster than wind blades.



Well she's going to have a head start, and I don't know why those blades would be so much faster (if they are at all) than a chakra-exploding Tsunade that they'd catch up to her. They weren't noted to be fast or anything...


----------



## ~M~ (Dec 31, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If you ignore the manga.
> But then pretty much everything remains vague.



I've stated at least 3 times a critical blow will kill her and any blow from her will kill him  it's 50/50 and the vagueness is DUE to the manga's faults.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 1, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Well she's going to have a head start, and I don't know why those blades would be so much faster (if they are at all) than a chakra-exploding Tsunade that they'd catch up to her. They weren't noted to be fast or anything...




They are wind blades. 
Tsuande is a 50kg person. 
Its common sense.

Even if you ignore the speed of the projectiles and leave both to Baku's suction, Tsunade will move slower because of her mass and air friction and shit.



pls bully me said:


> I've stated at least 3 times a critical blow will kill her and any blow from her will kill him  it's 50/50 and the vagueness is DUE to the manga's faults.



there is nothing vague about Danzo's fuuton being able rip through her like a cardboard.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 1, 2016)

Tsunade has no speed feats to suggest that she will be capable of dodging Danzo's massive Futon offencive. Tsunade has no durability feats to suggest that she can withstand his Futon, which could cut through Sasuke's Susanoo. He can also immobilise her, or suck her in Baku. And he is faster. 

Danzo wins mid-diff.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They are wind blades.
> Tsuande is a 50kg person.
> Its common sense



So...you think those blades would beat 8th Gate Gai in a race?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Even if you ignore the speed of the projectiles and leave both to Baku's suction, Tsunade will move slower because of her mass and air friction and shit.



We're not leaving both to Baku's suction. She's using chakra to explode off of the ground, because all she needs to do is ram into Baku to punch a hole in him like a Tsunade-bullet.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Tsunade has no speed feats to suggest that she will be capable of dodging Danzo's massive Futon offencive. Tsunade has no durability feats to suggest that she can withstand his Futon, which could cut through Sasuke's Susanoo. He can also immobilise her, or suck her in Baku. And he is faster.
> 
> Danzo wins mid-diff.



Tsunade has some of the best durability feats among Sanin if you read the thread.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 1, 2016)

Rocky said:


> So...you think those blades would beat 8th Gate Gai in a race?


I have no idea what Gai has anything to do with this.


> We're not leaving both to Baku's suction. She's using chakra to explode off of the ground, because all she needs to do is ram into Baku to punch a hole in him like a Tsunade-bullet.



Assuming Tsunade does that before Danzo fires off his wind blades, I still don't think she can beat the windblades to the finish because Tsunade has literally no speed feats to suggest that she can outrun wind projectiles.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

Guys... 25 meters is only 82 feet. After one body flicker the gap will be closed, and Danzo isn't going to be able to summon Baku in time, and with full knowledge Tsunade won't get caught in Baku's suction. Once Tsunade's in Danzo's face it's pretty much over.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Tsunade should bullrush people like Ei but doesn't


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

It's far from over if Tsunade is in his face. 

With an MS (heavenly eyes that see the truth of all of creation without obstruction) he has no issue avoiding her linear attacking style indefinitely and slicing her up with Wind Release Slashes in CQC transition [1]


----------



## Mithos (Jan 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I have no idea what Gai has anything to do with this.
> 
> 
> Assuming Tsunade does that before Danzo fires off his wind blades, I still don't think she can beat the windblades to the finish because Tsunade has literally no speed feats to suggest that she can outrun wind projectiles.



She intercepted Manda's attack mid-bite while carrying a multi-ton tanto through the air...

She can cover more distance faster than some random futon.



DaVizWiz said:


> It's far from over if Tsunade is in his face.
> 
> With an MS (heavenly eyes that see the truth of all of creation without obstruction) he has no issue avoiding her linear attacking style indefinitely and slicing her up with Wind Release Slashes in CQC transition [1]



Danzou hasn't shown anything for us to believe he can tangle with Tsunade in CQC. 

He definitely cannot avoid her indefinitely, and Tsunade is skilled in CQC and evasion so she isn't just going to be dodged and easily sliced up.

You're also forgetting that Tsunade can make "almost" Sakura-level ground pounds, so Tsunade doesn't even have to physically touch Danzou to seriously injure him -- the resulting shockwave and debris will do a fine job of that on its own, and Danzou cannot possibly hope to continually avoid them.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Tsunade has some of the best durability feats among Sanin if you read the thread.



She doesnt have the durability feats good enough to say that she can tank Futon which could cut through Sasuke's Susanoo.

Danzo still mid diffs.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 1, 2016)

> She can cover more distance faster than some random futon.



Some random futon is so random.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> She doesnt have the durability feats good enough to say that she can tank Futon which could cut through Sasuke's Susanoo.
> 
> Danzo still mid diffs.



Didn't it only cut through Susanoo because it was boosted by Baku? Without the Baku boost it'd do jack to Susanoo. 

I don't think his base fuuton can cut harder than the sword of Kusanagi which can supposedly cut diamond and harm Enma in his Adamanatine Staff form. 

*@DaVizWiz*

Danzo doesn't have MS.

Also, Tsunade could just replicate Sakura's ground pound feat(Hashi said Sakura "might" be stronger than Tsunade)... The shockwave was huge, and made the Juubi minions look like specs. Danzo isn't outrunning it, he'll be launched midair where he can't dodge.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Sharringan precognition is a joke and has helped no one in close quarters

The entire battle between sauce and Danzo is mid (sauce's specialty) to mid-far range (Danzo's speciality)


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Didn't it only cut through Susanoo because it was boosted by Baku? Without the Baku boost it'd do jack to Susanoo.
> 
> I don't think his base fuuton can cut harder than the sword of Kusanagi which can supposedly cut diamond and harm Enma in his Adamanatine Staff form.
> 
> ...



Could you show me where it was said that Kusanagi could cut through diamond? I don't remember that, I do remember Enma saying that he could be hurt by it though, or something along those lines. Enma wasn't disadvantaged by it at all though, iirc. I apologise for my poor memory. 

Danzo has Shisui's MS.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Sharringan precognition is a joke and has helped no one in close quarters
> 
> The entire battle between sauce and Danzo is mid (sauce's specialty) to mid-far range (Danzo's speciality)



Sasuke with two Tomoe helped him track Haku and when Sasuke gained another Tomoe he could track Naruto. Sharingan precog makes a significant difference. 



I know it was in Part 1 but it still applies here, especially given that Tsunade's attacks are generally predictable.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Could you show me where it was said that Kusanagi could cut through diamond? I don't remember that, I do remember Enma saying that he could be hurt by it though, or something along those lines. Enma wasn't disadvantaged by it at all though, iirc.



I just checked the databook. My mistake, apparently diamond/adamantine/vaira can be used interchangeably when translating. 



> Ninjutsu: Transformation-Diamond Shifting Staff(TN: directly translating does not really work due to the myths/ legends background of Kongōnyoi)
> Supplementary
> 
> User: Monkey king Enma
> ...


----------



## Veracity (Jan 1, 2016)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> She intercepted Manda's attack mid-bite while carrying a multi-ton tanto through the air...
> 
> She can cover more distance faster than some random futon.
> 
> ...



Thank you. Everyone seems to forget that tsuande doesn't actually have to touch him. She can punch the ground at 10 meters away and create an FRS sized shockwave breaking all of danzos bones.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> @DaVizWiz
> 
> Danzo doesn't have MS.
> 
> Also, Tsunade could just replicate Sakura's ground pound feat(Hashi said Sakura "might" be stronger than Tsunade)... The shockwave was huge, and made the Juubi minions look like specs. Danzo isn't outrunning it, he'll be launched midair where he can't dodge.


Yes he does, it wasn't restricted, the Genjutsu cast by MS was restricted. 

Danzo can clearly still fight with his MS activated. 

3-toma alone would give him the boost to toy with Tsunade in CQC.

You can't give Tsunade Sakura's feats.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

We have to take into account it's on a bridge. They need to get to ground first. 

Danzo starts off with an advantage


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

> Toy with Tsunade cqc


 




 


He's not edo Madara come on


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I just checked the databook. My mistake, apparently diamond/adamantine/vaira can be used interchangeably when translating.



That doesn't mean that Kusanagi can cut through Enma though, Enma just said that it hurt. Enma wasn't damaged in any way, iirc.



~M~ said:


> Fair enough too bad kishi forgot that later
> 
> It becomes a case of what do you do once you know it's coming though? Block? Dodge? I imagine it going like this



Well, there were no longer any Uchiha with Sharingan below 3 Tomoe. Precog wasn't forgotten though, it has been mentioned quite a bit in Part 2.

Blocking against Tsunade isn't an option, he'd get wrecked. He does have the ability to dodge though, Danzo's alright in base, give him an MS and he's better. If he can dodge Sasuke's Chidori, he can definitely dodge Tsunade's direct attacks.




> Too bad Kishi forgot about substitution in part 2 as well
> 
> Or maybe not



Good riddance to substitution, it was a shitty element of battle. Orochimaru's one I can tolerate though.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> He's not edo Madara come on



Danzo with MS dances around Tsunade, just as with 3-toma he danced around MS Sasuke, and without Sharingan he landed a lethal blow on him and grabbed his neck in reaction. 

There is no debate to be had in that regard.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

He didn't dance around Sasuke  

Also, Hashirama said Sakura "might" be stronger than Tsunade who was a toddler last he remembered her 

I think it's safe to say that we can scale Tsunade to Sakura's punch.

edit: Since when did Danzo have MS?

When was it stated that MS boosted the precognition abilities of 3 tomoe Sharingan?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

Yes he did. [1] [2]

While critically wounded (Chidori Sword through torso, ripped off arm) and exhausted (10 Izanagi straight, several futon variants, boss summon).

Prior to that, without Sharingan, he mortally wounded Sasuke [1] and grabbed his neck in reaction [1] [2]

Danzo is no different than Kakashi, he might have been faster than him at that point considering what he did against MS Sasuke, who was certainly faster than Kakashi at that point.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Uh number one since when is sauce a 5 in taijutsu (3.5), and two when did he dance around sauce cqc 

When they stabbed each other equally or each time he used izanagi to get out of danger


----------



## Veracity (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes he does, it wasn't restricted, the Genjutsu cast by MS was restricted.
> 
> Danzo can clearly still fight with his MS activated.
> 
> ...


Actually you can. If you wanna pull the " you can't give her sakura feats " despite the fact that tsuande easily has comparable feats and shouldn't be any weaker than sakura given the fact that she's actually physically strong unlike her....then you have to realize that Hashirama said she MIGHT be almost worse than tsunade: [2]
take into consideration how old tsuande actually was when Hashirama died. Which would place Hokagw Tsunade far above War Arc Sakura logically.

Then consider the fact that Shizune wasn't surprised at all about her strength( if she was stronger than tsunade then that would have been a huge deal) and was more intrigued by her released seal.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> edit: Since when did Danzo have MS?
> 
> When was it stated that MS boosted the precognition abilities of 3 tomoe Sharingan?



He stole Shisui's eye, remember?

I don't think it was explicitly stated, might have been implied.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

So he zipped around a nearly blind Sasuke who was running in a straight line using Chidori... That's not what I would call "dancing around".

*@Itachi*

Did he ever turn Shisui's eyes into MS? Also, where was it implied. The only benefit of MS was hax techniques, never increased visual precognition.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 1, 2016)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> She intercepted Manda's attack mid-bite while carrying a multi-ton tanto through the air...


Interception feat & unquantifiable.


> She can cover more distance faster than some random futon.


No she can't.

And that random fuuton did more damage to Susano'o than Tsunade ever did.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes he did. [1] [2]
> 
> While critically wounded (Chidori Sword through torso, ripped off arm) and exhausted (10 Izanagi straight, several futon variants, boss summon).
> 
> ...


You're grasping at straws dude, I don't think you know the expression 'dancing around'. 

You're pointing out moments of success. 

Dancing around makes no sense, your panels show in your first example two tired people reacting to a surprising hostage move, your second panels are clashes.  

Do you think MS sauce in CQC is better than Tsunade barring all ms special abilities? ( susanoo, ama, genjutsu)


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> So he zipped around a nearly blind Sasuke who was running in a straight line using Chidori... That's not what I would call "dancing around".
> 
> *@Itachi*
> 
> Did he ever turn Shisui's eyes into MS? Also, where was it implied. The only benefit of MS was hax techniques, never increased visual precognition.



He used Shisui's ms ability for decades


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

I wouldn't call it 'dancing around' either but Danzo was able to tangle with him. Tsunade would have a lot of difficulty tangling with Hebi Sasuke...

Danzo used Kotoamatsukami on Mifune and planned to use it on Obito too, he had MS. He just kept it at 3 Tomoe form.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> So he zipped around a nearly blind Sasuke who was running in a straight line using Chidori... That's not what I would call "dancing around".


Are you implying Tsunade can do better than a nearly blind Sasuke against a completely exhausted and mortally wounded one armed Danzo?

Ba

ha

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Oh, that was good. 

Refer to the two other feats of Danzo, *not using Sharingan*, equaling a pretty decent vision MS Sasuke in CQC if you need more proof of how a healthy, fully fresh, Danzo branding an MS would break dance around her linear western boxing style and apply surgical wind release slashes between her tits at every turn.

[1] 
[1] [2]

Also, refer to Sasuke accurately targeting Kakashi from 30m with Susano Arrow directly after battling Danzo. [1] "Nearly Blind" didn't exactly hinder him there 

And that's, of course, after Karin healed him, which happens a panel before Sasuke runs at Danzo, [1] [2]

Wreckt


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> He used Shisui's ms ability for decades



Shit, my bad  

I thought Koto was used by three tomoe Sharingan


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I wouldn't call it 'dancing around' either but Danzo was able to tangle with him. Tsunade would have a lot of difficulty tangling with Hebi Sasuke...
> 
> Danzo used Kotoamatsukami on Mifune and planned to use it on Obito too, he had MS. He just kept it at 3 Tomoe form.



But they won't dance


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> But they won't dance



Yes but

Sasuke =/> Danzo > Tsunade


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Are you implying Tsunade can do better than a nearly blind Sasuke against a completely exhausted and mortally wounded one armed Danzo?
> 
> Ba
> 
> ...




Danzo effortlessly dodges Tsunade's attack, and makes ha- Wait! Tsunade hit connected to the ground and now Danzo is launched into the air!







Toddler Tsunade solos Danzo 



Itachі said:


> Yes but
> 
> Sasuke =/> Danzo > Tsunade



Wait, so you think Danzo could keep up with Ei just as well as Sasuke?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

He didn't use Sharingan for 95% of that battle, because it was recharging after using Koto. Once it finished, he unwrapped it, and embarrassed the healed Sasuke while he himself was mortally wounded and exhausted. 

Fresh, Healthy Danzo branding an MS would easily handle someone like Tsunade who's entire CQC style is as direct as it gets.

@BringerOfChoas: 

That statement is thrown in the trash as Tsunade didn't even develop super strength, let alone Byakugou which is what allowed Sakura to perform that feat, until after Hashirama was *long dead*.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

How on hell's earth do you tell if Danzo is using his sharringan or not when it's covered  Karin's only comment is he saves the last eye for koto


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

Are you implying the bandages didn't block the sight of his Sharingan?

Hmm, wonder why he took the bandages off then, or why Kakashi covers his Sharingan when out of battle.



You're reaching hard now dude.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

Yes, yes, and Kinkaku and Ginkaku beat Tobirama to the brink of death, team Tobirama were the young flames of Konoha in their forties the day Tobirama sacrificed himself despite looking like teenagers in the flashback, Kurenai and Asuma competed in the Chunin exams before they even graduated from the academy, etc

What a beautiful timeline this manga has. 

Also who's to say toddler Tsunade didn't have super strength, dem quarter Senju quarter Uzamaki genes at work 


Joking aside, the difference in striking power between Tsunade and Sakura is negligible.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

If Tsunade launches Danzo in the air, he launches a Futon at her. She's going to have to run through the Futon if she wants him.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> Joking aside, the difference in striking power between Tsunade and Sakura is negligible.


Clearly not as Sakura's punch in the war puts any terrain strike by Tsunade to utter shame.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

But he can use koto without taking off the bandage  it seems implied at least


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

He can, he used it against Mifune.. somehow.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

Of course. 

Doesn't mean he can benefit from precognition when the Sharingan isn't seeing any of the attacks coming. 

You're also comparing Koto to 3-toma Sharingan. 

3-toma Sharingan's abilities can't be accessed if it's covered.

He obviously didn't have MS activated under the bandage, because when he pulled it off it was 3-toma, and the eye had already used Koto earlier in the day, so it was clearly in 3-toma form for the entire battle while wrapped as he was waiting for the technique to recharge.

All this irrelevant to the fact he pulled the bandage off, which means the Sharingan clearly needed to see light for the precognition to be acquired, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

dat feel when i've stayed longer in a tsunade vs danzo thread than any itachi thread ever

forgive me, my king


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

So he can use ms through bandages and not precognition? Seems like a plot hole more than anything  the sole purpose of the seals on the arms is to conserve chakra and covering his face to fool people. 

Like, sharringan sees through bones and flesh to see chakra.  Kakashi being the sole other example can't be compared because one, he was presented before ms was a thing (or any sharringan nonsense), and two, he always has his eye closed when covered and Danzo's was open. 

This is all flimsy water you see . 

Sharringan tome increase one's ability to sensate opponents moves, that is the sole fact we've established. 

MS in an entirely different beast, I'm looking through things and its benefits are jutsu not enhanced... Whatever it is the sharringan does


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> dat feel when i've stayed longer in a tsunade vs danzo thread than any itachi thread ever
> 
> forgive me, my king



It's an interesting topic but I'm still convinced it's a toss up


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> So he can use ms through bandages and not precognition? Seems like a plot hole more than anything  the sole purpose of the seals on the arms is to conserve chakra and covering his face to fool people.


Yes, that's what was implied.

Koto, the MS Jutsu (separate from precognition granted from 3-toma or MS or any of the seperate abilities granted from the Dojutsu) can be cast through covers and it doesn't require eye connection. 



> Like, sharringan sees through bones and flesh to see chakra.  Kakashi being the sole other example can't be compared because one, he was presented before ms was a thing (or any sharringan nonsense), and two, he always has his eye closed when covered and Danzo's was open.


Are you implying Kakashi has precognition when his Sharingan is covered by his headband?

MS was revered as the "heavenly eyes that see the truth of all of creation without obstruction"

That's not just some upgrade that gives you a powerful Jutsu. The eyes simply get better at everything they previously did. 

MS Sasuke is faster than Hebi Sasuke by feats. 

EMS Sasuke is faster than MS Sasuke by feats. 

With each ocular evolutiion Sasuke has gotten blatantly faster, reacting to attacks that trumped anything he's reacted to prior, Hebi Sasuke did not do some special training when he got MS to boost his speed, EMS Sasuke did not do some special training to boost his speed... it happened naturally due to the evolution of his eyes and his being, by default.

Danzo branding an MS should conceivably do better in CQC. However, it's not relevant, because with 3-toma alone he can handle Tsunade. 

Stop underrating what a Sharingan can do for someone in CQC, especially for someone who's already remarkably skilled and notably fast without it.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> So he can use ms through bandages and not precognition? Seems like a plot hole more than anything  the sole purpose of the seals on the arms is to conserve chakra and covering his face to fool people.
> 
> Like, sharringan sees through bones and flesh to see chakra.  Kakashi being the sole other example can't be compared because one, he was presented before ms was a thing (or any sharringan nonsense), and two, he always has his eye closed when covered and Danzo's was open.
> 
> ...



He can use Koto through bandages, Itachi wouldn't be able to use Tsukuyomi nor would Kakashi be able to use Kamui if their eyes were blocked. Susano'o is the exception though, I guess.

Precog can't be used if something's blocking the LOS though.


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## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

Maybe Danzo has see through bandages 

Also you're telling me Danzo's best close quarters feats is trading blows with Sasuke twice, and running around Sasuke once to get to Karin  



DaVizWiz said:


> Clearly not as Sakura's punch in the war puts any terrain strike by Tsunade to utter shame.



Except Kishi stated through Hashirama that Sakura's feat "might" be stronger than Tsunade's. 

Also we haven't seen Tsunade punch the ground in part 2 after the power inflation... In fact in part 1 Chakra Enhanced Strength wasn't even a thing because Kishi had not thought of the technique yet, and how Kabuto's chakra scalpel disabled Tsunade's strength which should have been irrelevant against chakra enhanced strength. 

All of Tsunade's part 1 strength feats were probably done without chakra


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Maybe Danzo has see through bandages
> 
> Also you're telling me Danzo's best close quarters feats is trading blows with Sasuke twice, and running around Sasuke once to get to Karin



Evading Chidori in his condition is actually pretty damn impressive.



> Except Kishi stated through Hashirama that Sakura's feat "might" be stronger than Tsunade's.



Doesn't really mean anything, did Hashirama ever witness Tsunade's super strength?


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## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

*@Itachi*

Why would Tsunade even come to mind after witnessing Sakura's punch if he didn't know Tsunade was super strong? 

I mean, yeah, timeline wise it doesn't make sense unless toddler Tsunade was dishing out blows like this, but there are many timeline discrepancies in the manga.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *@Itachi*
> 
> Why would Tsunade even come to mind after witnessing Sakura's punch if he didn't know Tsunade was super strong?
> 
> I mean, yeah, timeline wise it doesn't make sense unless toddler Tsunade was dishing out blows like this, but there are many timeline discrepancies in the manga.



I know, but we can't really use it as reliable evidence. We simply don't know what Hashirama witnessed.


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Your correlation of Sauce's speed and sharringan is tainted by third variables, such as orochimaru's training, maturation, and experience. I don't see how none of these matter to you. 

If it takes special training to get faster than Naruto sure did a hell of a lot of running sometime off panal  


Susanoo is yet another plot hole... 

Sharriangan precog, as I've demonstrated, is only stated to be an element of the third tome. Kishi did not write anything more. It's fanfiction to place enhanced ability to it apart from the canon insanity it has. 

And therein, Tsunade has faced Madara who did not avoid all her attacks. He chose to tank them and Danzo has no susanoo to do so.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> Except Kishi stated through Hashirama that Sakura's feat "might" be stronger than Tsunade's.
> 
> Also we haven't seen Tsunade punch the ground in part 2 after the power inflation... In fact in part 1 Chakra Enhanced Strength wasn't even a thing because Kishi had not thought of the technique yet, and how Kabuto's chakra scalpel disabled Tsunade's strength which should have been irrelevant against chakra enhanced strength.
> 
> All of Tsunade's part 1 strength feats were probably done without chakra


This statement was proven irrelevant when Hashirama was written by the author to have died (gone, memory stops there, period) prior to Tsunade even becoming a shinobi, let alone even beginning to train to become one. 

By the time he died it's likely she didn't even know how to mold chakra, or what chakra even was.


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

New author statement > old author statement


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Your correlation of Sauce's speed and sharringan is tainted by third variables, such as orochimaru's training, maturation, and experience. I don't see how none of these matter to you.
> 
> If it takes special training to get faster than Naruto sure did a hell of a lot of running sometime off panal



Except this didn't happen from Sasuke's transition to MS, he was faster.



> Sharriangan precog, as I've demonstrated, is only stated to be an element of the third tome. Kishi did not write anything more. It's fanfiction to place enhanced ability to it apart from the canon insanity it has.
> 
> And therein, Tsunade has faced Madara who did not avoid all her attacks. He chose to tank them and Danzo has no susanoo to do so.



Sharingan precog is also enhanced by Sasuke's EMS via Choku Tomoe, I believe.

Madara could have easily avoided her attacks though.


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Crediting his speed to the sharringan makes very little sense to me because everybody gets faster.


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## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

*@Itachi*

Obviously he must have witnessed something comparable to that for Tsunade to even come to mind, no?

*@DaVizWiz*

Or maybe Kishi forgot his own timeline again like he's done countless times.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> New author statement > old author statement


That's not the author's statement, that's a character speaking. 

Would you like me to write of a list of incorrect, idiotic, asinine character statements?

It's long. 

There's substantial proof in the manga he died prior to Tsunade becoming a shinobi or even being in the academy. 

There's direct proof from the author that he died prior to Tsunade becoming a shinobi or even being in the academy. (Databooks written/oked by Kishimoto)

So yeah, toddler Base (no byakugo) Tsunade who doesn't know how to mold chakra or what chakra is can definitely punch as hard as Byakugou Sakura who trained under 50+ year old Tsunade for years.

Makes total sense.


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## Dr. White (Jan 1, 2016)

He does not pre cog while being bandaged. Koto as an example is invalid because it explicitly doesn't require eye contact just presence, and Kakashi is a perfect example because the mechanism for him hiding the sharingan explicitly stopped it form working 24 seven to burden his body.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)




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## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> That's not the author's statement, that's a character speaking.
> 
> Would you like me to write of a list of incorrect, idiotic, asinine character statements?
> 
> ...



The timeline is just completely fucked in this manga.

Out of curiosity, why did Tsunade come to mind after he witnessed Sakura's punch? *You can't deny that it happened*. Logic is thrown out the window here, friend. Hashi was somehow magically aware of Tsuande's strength rather we like it or not.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

I do agree with BoC about the timeline thing, Kishimoto went and fucked logic.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> The timeline is just completely fucked in this manga.
> 
> Out of curiosity, why did Tsunade come to mind after he witnessed Sakura's punch? You can't deny that it happened. Logic is thrown out the window here, friend. Hashi was somehow magically aware of Tsuande's strength rather we like it or not.


If you choose to believe toddler, don't-know-what-chakra-is citizen, didn't invent or even think about inventing Byakugou (which enhances chakra punches) Tsunade can punch as hard as Byakugou Sakura who trained under Tsunade for years and is a seasoned shinobi, that's your problem.

I, on the other hand, will stick with logic and what basic intelligence can discern. 

That *Hashirama's statement* will be put into the trash can, because his statement cannot conceivably be true, and has been *proven to be false* *by facts* in the written and published *databooks authored by Kishimoto*, and the written and published *manga authored by Kishimoto*.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

We don't have to believe that toddler Tsunade had those feats, we can just translate it to normal Tsunade.


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> He does not pre cog while being bandaged. Koto as an example is invalid because it explicitly doesn't require eye contact just presence, and Kakashi is a perfect example because the mechanism for him hiding the sharingan explicitly stopped it form working 24 seven to burden his body.



Hardly. Logically speaking 

Topically 

We're presented two characters 

One is able to use a sharringan ability while it is covered 

The other is not 

It can therefore only be concluded that the two differ, Kakashi cannot use his sharringan while covered and Danzo can. Why? Who knows. 

This is again, topically, not essentially. 

Further examples of sharringan not requiring eyesight: eyeless Madara susanoo 

The one conclusion is: Kakashi is the exception not Danzo. 

Further, Danzo is more recent a creation of the authors mind. Thereby a more credible reference. 






However this is unsatisfactory so we may entertain the idea Danzo has no precognition. How much faster does he get when it is taken off? Why did he not do it at the beginning of battle? If the chakra drain of mere 3 tome is so extreeme, he will surely lose against Tsunade.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

Danzo has precognition when his eye bandage is off, that is a *fact*. Koto is a unique Jutsu among MS, it's not like Tsukuyomi can be cast without eye contact. Neither of them have precog when their eye is covered.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> Further examples of sharringan not requiring eyesight: eyeless Madara susanoo


Are you implying eyeless Madara had Sharingan precognition?

He literally had no eyes in his sockets.


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

I'm on mobile and can't see this


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

See it now?


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Danzo has precognition when his eye bandage is off, that is a *fact*. Koto is a unique Jutsu among MS, it's not like Tsukuyomi can be cast without eye contact. Neither of them have precog when their eye is covered.





DaVizWiz said:


> Are you implying eyeless Madara had Sharingan precognition?
> 
> He literally had no eyes in his sockets.



I'm granting that. I was pointing out through true adherence to logic however, Kakashi is the exception not Danzo.  But we know that likely wasn't the authors intent. 

Which brings my aforementioned post to its final questions


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

You don't even need that statement Itachi.

Just look at the progression of speed of each of Sasuke's Sharingan evolutions. 

It's blatantly obvious speed wise, that 
EMS > MS > 3 Toma > 2 Toma



> I'm granting that. I was pointing out through true adherence to logic however, Kakashi is the exception not Danzo. But we know that likely wasn't the authors intent.
> 
> Which brings my aforementioned post to its final questions


You're speaking of eyeless Madara using Susano, and Danzo casting Koto, a technique that specifically is stated to be used without needing eye contact, with a wrapped MS.

None of this has anything to do with precognition. That's a separate ability entirely, and has been implied to require light (unwrapped) to utilize, which is why Danzo, Kakashi & EMS Sasuke unwrapped their Sharingan to engage in combat. 

Neither Madara nor Danzo had Sharingan precognition in the above situations.

You're drawing illogical conclusions from examples that are foreign to the discussion at hand.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> You don't even need that statement Itachi.
> 
> Just look at the progression of speed of each of Sasuke's Sharingan evolutions.
> 
> ...



It wasn't really stated though which is weird, Kishimoto generally blurts out the obvious things. But yeah, since 3 Tomoe is a jump above 2 Tomoe, MS is a jump above 3 Tomoe and so on. By speed do you mean physical speed, reflexes or both?


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> You don't even need that statement Itachi.
> 
> Just look at the progression of speed of each of Sasuke's Sharingan evolutions.
> 
> ...



 Fixed.


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## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

*@Itachi*

He probably forgot how old Tsunade was when Hashi died. 



DaVizWiz said:


> If you choose to believe toddler, don't-know-what-chakra-is citizen, didn't invent or even think about inventing Byakugou (which enhances chakra punches) Tsunade can punch as hard as Byakugou Sakura who trained under Tsunade for years and is a seasoned shinobi, that's your problem.
> 
> I, on the other hand, will stick with logic and what basic intelligence can discern.



Bruh, you use logic you gonna fry your brain...

Explain Kakashi's chunin exam flashback, please I need to here your take on it  

Or explain Tobirama's death flashback. Hiruzen and his teammates looked like teenagers, and Tobirama called them the young flames of Konoha... but timeline wise and the fourth databook said they were in their forties in that scene... If Hiruzen was in his forties in that scene he'd already be the third Hokage, and the Sannin would already be adults. 

You just gotta accept that Kishi fucked things up, sticking your fingers into your ears and closing your eyes and ignoring parts of the canon that are... Guess what... Canon just because they don't make sense isn't logical. 





> That Hashirama's statement will be put into the trash can, because his statement cannot conceivably be true, and has been *proven* to be false.



Regardless if it makes sense or not, we know the authors intent was to compare Sakura and Tsunade's strength. Please enlighten me on what was going on in Hashi's head when it made that statement? Are you saying that Hashirama has a mental illness where he imagines his granddaughter having super strength as a toddler? Are you saying that he didn't speak at all in that scene, and it was actually a genjutsu?


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> See it now?



Muddy water... How does he know what it looks like without eyes  he retained the chakra sense without the eyes... 

Further, 'your moves are good', you want me to take that as speed? That's so vague  he's probably after his abilities in general


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> It wasn't really stated though which is weird, Kishimoto generally blurts out the obvious things. But yeah, since 3 Tomoe is a jump above 2 Tomoe, MS is a jump above 3 Tomoe and so on. By speed do you mean physical speed, reflexes or both?


Well reflexes/reactions generally, but I do believe EMS users will always be faster than 3-toma users in shunshin/foot speed, they're really just a different kind of beast.



> Muddy water... How does he know what it looks like without eyes  he retained the chakra sense without the eyes...
> 
> Further, 'your moves are good', you want me to take that as speed? That's so vague  he's probably after his abilities in general


Yes, you will take it as speed, because that was stated after Sasuke lunged at him with several masterful kenjutsu attacks and stabbed his arm.

I don't know how it could get any more obvious, he was referring to his fluent *move*ment and speed.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Muddy water... How does he know what it looks like without eyes  he retained the chakra sense without the eyes...
> 
> Further, 'your moves are good', you want me to take that as speed? That's so vague  he's probably after his abilities in general



Madara had SM sensing.

Here's another translation



Less vague? He's referring to movement.


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Dude 

Brah 

What if I told you 

Yo eyes can make u run faster


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Madara had SM sensing.
> 
> Here's another translation
> 
> ...



This specifically refers to eternal ms now 

Where in chap 581 sauce specifically says he feels stronger and receives a portion of itachi's chakra


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> This specifically refers to eternal ms now
> 
> Where in chap 581 sauce specifically says he feels stronger and receives a portion of itachi's chakra



But if EMS improves precognition as well as 2 Tomoe & 3 Tomoe, why wouldn't MS?


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## Veracity (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> He didn't use Sharingan for 95% of that battle, because it was recharging after using Koto. Once it finished, he unwrapped it, and embarrassed the healed Sasuke while he himself was mortally wounded and exhausted.
> 
> Fresh, Healthy Danzo branding an MS would easily handle someone like Tsunade who's entire CQC style is as direct as it gets.
> 
> ...



Except tsuande has physicaly had herculean strentgh since birth. So by manga statements War Arc Sakura at best would marginally be better than probably pre-teen tsuandes physical strentgh alone. At the end of the day you cant put put Sakura any above Part 2 tsuande, and that's the whole point. So yes you can give tsunade Sakura's feat. That would borderline on downscaling her.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Except tsuande has physicaly had herculean strentgh since birth. So by manga statements War Arc Sakura at best would marginally be better than probably pre-teen tsuandes physical strentgh alone. At the end of the day you cant put put Sakura any above Part 2 tsuande, and that's the whole point. So yes you can give tsunade Sakura's feat. That would borderline on downscaling her.



When was it said that Tsunade had that strength from birth?


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## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Ems makes a person stronger period, in every way. It was emphasized and stuff. Ms gives jutsu. That seems to be about it. 

Returning to the matter at hand, why didn't Danzo uncover his eye from the beginning?


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## Veracity (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> When was it said that Tsunade had that strength from birth?


She's physically strong unlike sakura. This is via senju/uzuamaki lineage.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> Except tsuande has physicaly had herculean strentgh since birth.


No she has not.



> She's physically strong unlike sakura. This is via senju/uzuamaki lineage.


No Uzumaki/Senju has innate herculean strength, I'm not sure how you drew the conclusion that people from that lineage harbor that innate ability.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> But if EMS improves precognition as well as 2 Tomoe & 3 Tomoe, why wouldn't MS?



 Dude, Kakashi literally stated he'd be serious against Obito's V2 Jin by activating the MS and no usage of Kamui was shown afterwards:

 [2]

 Yeah, MS provides extra Precognitive benefits over the 3T Sharingan.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> When was it said that Tsunade had that strength from birth?



It was never stated, but we do know she has super strength outside of chakra enhanced strength... And I'm 99% sure she doesn't lift like Gai for her strength. She was probably born naturally strong due to her crossbreed Senju/Uzamaki heritage. 

I do agree that she could never display that kind of strength as a toddler though, no way in hell. As I said earlier, Kishi fucked up the timeline, and he probably forgot how old Tsuande was when Hashi died. 

Heck according to the databook Hiruzen was forty when Tobirama died  

It's best not to think of the timeline discrepancies, do you think when Kishi wrote Hashirama's statement he was thinking "But, my fans will obviously know not to take Hashirama seriously because Tsuande was a toddler, tee-hee" Kishi's intent was to compare Tsunade and Sakura's strength.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Ems makes a person stronger period, in every way. It was emphasized and stuff. Ms gives jutsu. That seems to be about it.
> 
> Returning to the matter at hand, why didn't Danzo uncover his eye from the beginning?



MS was hyped too, Itachi hyped it quite a bit by himself.

It was recovering from Koto and he wanted to use Koto on Obito.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> It was never stated, but we do know she has super strength outside of chakra enhanced strength... And I'm 99% sure she doesn't lift like Gai for her strength. She was probably born naturally strong due to her crossbreed Senju/Uzamaki heritage.
> 
> I do agree that she could never display that kind of strength as a toddler though, no way in hell. As I said earlier, Kishi fucked up the timeline, and he probably forgot how old Tsuande was when Hashi died.
> 
> ...



That's weird though, Uzumaki genes provide life force, not strength. Hashirama's a pure Senju and he didn't have super strength. But yeah, she may have been born with the strength somehow anyway. Doesn't really matter whether she trained for it or was born with it, at any rate.

I agree.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> And I'm 99% sure she doesn't lift like Gai for her strength. She was probably born naturally strong due to her crossbreed Senju/Uzamaki heritage.


No one knows how she attained her lifting or grappling strength. 

I know for a fact it's possible that it is a spin off of the chakra punches type of strength, if we consider Sakura's ability to pull Sasori 30m back toward her by his cord as he was flying at top speed toward Chiyo

[1] [2] [This panel looks like Tsunade ironically, as if to hint that Tsunade passed down this type of strength] [4]

or that she later threw a puppet device fast enough to force him to heart transfer [1] [2] [3] (albeit he's slow as shit anyway)

I've chosen to assign her lifting strength to an applied training technique that she later taught Sakura who religiously practiced it, or that they're able to also use chakra to enhance their lifting/throwing/grappling strength.

Either way Sakura got her strength, so it's clear the strength can be taught and is not innate.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

So instead of saving himself by using 3 tome he used the vastly more taxing and powerful izanagi 

On sauce 

All of them 

So he could koto obito. Possibly. 

He's a genius


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> So instead of saving himself by using 3 tome he used the vastly more taxing and powerful izanagi
> 
> On sauce
> 
> ...



He would have died much earlier with only 3 Tomoe, that much is obvious...


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

No one ever claimed Danzo was strategically adept. 

There was no reason for him to battle Sasuke with "Madara" standing around, the guy who just low diff'd his bodyguards in his plain sight. 

That was clearly the wrong choice.

The better option would've been to flee with his bodyguards until Koto recharged, then use it on Madara to foursome Sasuke.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> He would have died much earlier with only 3 Tomoe, that much is obvious...



DaVizWiz is convinced from 3 panels Danzo is faster than sauce 

Surely 3 tome, with a boost in speed and precognition, would have had him dancing around him twice as well 

He could have used ONE izanagi and then turned on 3 tome to get stronger but didn't. 

He kept using izanagi. 


My deduction is uncovering his bandage makes him no stronger.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

Using Izanagi and lasting for 10 minutes is better than using 3 Tomoe and losing to Sasuke's Susano'o arrows after 2 minutes.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> No one knows how she attained her lifting or grappling strength.



Yeah, the Senju/Uzamaki thing is just a theory. Regardless the only two possibilities is was that she trained for it, or she was born with it. The same applies to other characters like Gai, Jirobo, and Ei. They either trained or was born with the strength. There's not really a third option here. 



> I know for a fact it's possible that it is a spin off of the chakra punches type of strength, if we consider Sakura's ability to pull Sasori 30m back toward her by his cord as he was flying at top speed toward Chiyo



If there was a lifting technique I think it would've gotten a databook entry. Hell, the fire temple door that Kakazu broke got a sealing technique on the databook. 

Also, although I think the databook stats are more or less horse shit, we do know Tsunade got a 5 while Sakura got a 3. We also know that chakra enhanced strength was added in the third databook, while Tsunade's techniques were added in the second. It's not a stretch to say that Tsunade has natural strength on top of her chakra enhanced punches, while Sakura has to rely solely on chakra enhanced punches. 




> [1] [2] [This panel looks like Tsunade ironically, as if to hint that Tsunade passed down this type of strength] [4]
> 
> or that she later threw a puppet device fast enough to force him to heart transfer [1] [2] [3] (albeit he's slow as shit anyway)
> 
> I've chosen to allocate her lifting strength to an applied training technique that she later taught Sakura, or that they're able to also use chakra to enhance their lifting/throwing/grappling strength as displayed above.



I don't see why Naruto or Sasuke or Kakashi couldn't replicate the pulling/throwing feat. It looks like she was using her base strength for that.



~M~ said:


> So instead of saving himself by using 3 tome he used the vastly more taxing and powerful izanagi
> 
> On sauce
> 
> ...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> I've chosen to assign her lifting strength to an applied training technique that she later taught Sakura who religiously practiced it, or that they're able to also use chakra to enhance their lifting/throwing/grappling strength.
> 
> Either way Sakura got her strength, so it's clear the strength can be taught and is not innate.



 It's the latter apparently:

 [3]

 Ninjas can draw upon their own chakra to enhance their lifting strength.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Using Izanagi and lasting for 10 minutes is better than using 3 Tomoe and losing to Sasuke's Susano'o arrows after 2 minutes.



How would he possibly lose to his arrow when in base he's equal speed to the arrow 

And 3 tome is not one, not two, but 3 tiers ahead in speed sight cognition and power  

Come on. The Bandage did not hold Danzo back. It is clear.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> I don't see why Naruto or Sasuke or Kakashi couldn't replicate the pulling/throwing feat. It looks like she was using her base strength for that.


I heard your other points, but there's no way Naruto or Kakashi are pulling Sasori back 30m when he's flying at top speed in the opposite direction and he has direct control over the cord himself which he showed he could propel at relatively impressive speed.

You either concede that Sakura has super lifting strength, or you're blind. 

Sakura wasn't born with the strength, in fact she was weak as fuck in Part 1 needing to cut her hair to stop one of the fodder sound genin from overpowering her by grappling it [1]

In late Part 1 her master became Tsunade who is super strong in every category, and she taught her how to punch like a super brute in Part 2. 

I think it's safe to assume Tsunade acquired her lifting strength from either training or the same type of chakra-enhanced strength that allows her to strike so powerfully, and passed one of these down to Sakura who then attained overall super strength, because Sakura was not born with it, and has no documented technique that grants her that lifting strength, yet in the panels I displayed she clearly showcased super lifting strength.


> It's the latter apparently:
> 
> [1]
> 
> Ninjas can draw upon their own chakra to enhance their lifting strength.


Well, that's that then. 

Sakura gained elite chakra control from Tsunade, and was taught how to enhance her lifting strength with it.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> How would he possibly lose to his arrow when in base he's equal speed to the arrow
> 
> And 3 tome is not one, not two, but 3 tiers ahead in speed sight cognition and power
> 
> Come on. The Bandage did not hold Danzo back. It is clear.



What the fuck? Nobody said that his speed was equal to Susano'o arrows. 

Nobody has been shown to start in 1 Tomoe iirc so it's 2. Wouldn't call it tiers tho..

Danzo still would have lost to Sasuke with 3 Tomoe, he would have died earlier lmao. What could he do to Susano'o after Baku gets fucked over with a Katon?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 1, 2016)

Danzo having speed of Susano'o Arrow which Kakashi could only warp it at the last minute from 30m?



 Shit, is Danzo as fast as V2 Raikage?


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

He thought that Viz implied that somehow.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> What the fuck? Nobody said that his speed was equal to Susano'o arrows.
> 
> Nobody has been shown to start in 1 Tomoe iirc so it's 2. Wouldn't call it tiers tho..
> 
> Danzo still would have lost to Sasuke with 3 Tomoe, he would have died earlier lmao. What could he do to Susano'o after Baku gets fucked over with a Katon





Itachі said:


> He did try to cut Sasuke with Futon but Sasuke pretty much dodged all of them. Sasuke only got caught on the shoulder by Danzo's Futon bullet which only cut him a little bit.
> 
> He had no time for seals in that scenario but he definitely reacted to it alright. He didn't 'tank' the arrow, he used Mokuton to change its trajectory. Danzo wasn't hit by it.
> 
> ...


So the boost from 3 tome is so insignificant he would have lost faster?  

Then why bring it up. He could react to the arrow. A boost makes it meaningless. Either he's an idiot or he has no boost above base.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> So the boost from 3 tome is so insignificant he would have lost faster?
> 
> Then why bring it up. He could react to the arrow. A boost makes it meaningless. Either he's an idiot or he has no boost above base.



It's not insignificant, but the arrow's still fast as fuck. Kakashi resorted to Kamui on the arrow and he was a good distance away.

It's blatantly obvious he would have lost faster, unless you're telling me that he could evade multiple Susano'o arrows and defend against Sasuke's Susano'o.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> I heard your other points, but there's no way Naruto or Kakashi are pulling Sasori back 30m when he's flying at top speed in the opposite direction and he has direct control over the cord himself which he showed he could propel at relatively impressive speed.



Why not exactly? You forget that Naruto characters have superhuman strength by our standards, while characters such as Tsunade and Ei have superhuman strength by their standards. I think Part 1 Lee could replicate that feat, because he uprooted a tree to block an attack. I don't see part 1 Rock Lee being physically stronger than Kakashi. 



> You either concede that Sakura has super lifting strength, or you're blind.
> 
> Sakura wasn't born with the strength, in fact she was weak as fuck in Part 1 needing to cut her hair to stop one of the sound genin from overpowering her.
> 
> ...



Yes, she wasn't born with super strength, which is why she needs chakra to punch hard. 

Going back to the databook, everyone agrees that the stats don't include boosters such as body flicker, cursed mark, kyuubi shroud, etc. While the stats are terrible to use when debating a fight, the point can be made that Kishi gave Tsunade a 5 and Sakura a 3... If Chakra enhanced strength was considered Sakura would have a 5 too.

Also Sakura literally has no lifting feats, and she's never lifting Gamabunta's sword.  She only punches hard due to chakra, that's it. Tsunade's strength is natural. If she used chakra enhanced strength in part 1 then Kishi would've put it in the second databook.


I think you're the first person I've seen suggest that Tsunade's strength isn't natural, and that Sakura's chakra enhanced punches give her the ability to lift things.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

He didn't take off his bandage until the last 

5% of the battle according to Dawizviz 

He could have used half his izanagi AND 3 tome. 

So he would have lost then too? 

You want to say that the boost of sharringan is significant.... But you're also saying it would make no difference  

He overcame susanoo and then died in a myriad of other ways. Base has no boost without bandages. He would have used it. 

Perhaps it did for sauce. Perhaps it does for Uchiha. But he's neither and nothing suggests he reacts faster without his bandage. Because faster reactions he would have killed sauce. There were plenty of places he nearly did.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

I can see M's train of thought here.

No Sharingan Danzo could react to Susanoo arrow, but couldn't dodge it.

1 tomoe gives a significant boost

2 tomoe gives a significant boost

3 tomoe gives a significant boost

With that logic he should be able to dodge Susanoo arrow(and also with that logic none sharingan Danzo is equal in speed and reaction to three tomoe Kakashi)


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> He didn't take off his bandage until the last
> 
> 5% of the battle according to Dawizviz
> 
> ...



It would make a difference but Danzo would still get overwhelmed. Sasuke didn't even fucking use Amaterasu against him, did he? Fact is, Danzo was outclassed. 

Sasuke's Katon > Danzo's Futon

Sasuke's Katon > Baku

Susano'o > Danzo's Offence [Without Baku]

Sasuke's Taijutsu > Danzo's Taijutsu


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 1, 2016)

Except Danzo relied on the Precognitive benefits of the Sharingan, hence why Obito concluded that Danzo's perceptual capabilities paled in comparison to Sasuke's in regards to the Sharingan.

 Danzo also, could never react to Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Except Danzo relied on the Precognitive benefits of the Sharingan, hence why Obito concluded that Danzo's perceptual capabilities paled in comparison to Sasuke's in regards to the Sharingan.
> 
> Danzo also, could never react to Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow.



He had his bandages on for most of the fight though. 

He could react, he just couldn't do much about it.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Except Danzo relied on the Precognitive benefits of the Sharingan, hence why Obito concluded that Danzo's perceptual capabilities paled in comparison to Sasuke's in regards to the Sharingan.
> 
> Danzo also, could never react to Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow.



There is a specific image of him reacting earlier 

And regardless, if he was outclassed, all evidence points to the fact he pulled out all the stops. This includes any reactionary speed boost he can get, so he has none without bandages.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

He physically stood up and moved his arm forward to erect Mokuton when the arrow was less than 5m from him in full flight.

That's a mental and physical reaction. He simply could not move his body out of the trajectory of the arrow because he was wind blowing himself back onto the bridge and fell onto it as Sasuke fired the arrow, like shooting duck in a barrel.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> He could react, he just couldn't do much about it.



But with no sharingan boost he could react and put up a Mokuton shield before it hit him. You and DaWiz says that the Sharingan tomoe boost speed and reaction(unless I have been misreading the discussion the two of you had with M)

Base Danzo: Reacts to Susanoo arrow, but isn't fast enough to avoid it so puts of a wood shield instead

So already base Danzo = Three tomoe Kakashi. Now we have to consider the speed boosts and reflex boosts each tomoe gives Danzo. It isn't a stretch to say three tomoe Danzo can dodge Susanoo arrow...


Orrrrr Kishi fucked up and Danzo isn't a speedster or alternatively Danzo's bandages are see through or something...


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

i just don't get how a person would sacrifice precognition, chakra sense, jutsu mimicry, and from what you guys are attempting to convince me 

A literal speed boost 

In battle. Ever. 

What we saw is what we get. His speed and sensate abilities are constant


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> Why not exactly? You forget that Naruto characters have superhuman strength by our standards, while characters such as Tsunade and Ei have superhuman strength by their standards. I think Part 1 Lee could replicate that feat, because he uprooted a tree to block an attack. I don't see part 1 Rock Lee being physically stronger than Kakashi.


You're implying they're strong enough to pull back Sasori, who is flying with his blades at full speed forward- 30 meters back to Sakura's position before Sasori can do anything?

No, I'm sorry, they don't have the strength to do that. 

And no, Kakashi & Naruto do not have super human strength, they have peak human lifting strength at best. 

It would take more than peak human strength to pull a full speed flying Sasori back 30m by his own controlled cord device. 

It would take more than peak human strength to stop a full speed flying Sasori by his own controlled cord device at all. 


> Yes, she wasn't born with super strength, which is why she needs chakra to punch hard.
> 
> Going back to the databook, everyone agrees that the stats don't include boosters such as body flicker, cursed mark, kyuubi shroud, etc. While the stats are terrible to use when debating a fight, the point can be made that Kishi gave Tsunade a 5 and Sakura a 3... If Chakra enhanced strength was considered Sakura would have a 5 too.


I don't care about databook scores, they're inconsistent with the manga and completely unreliable.



> Also Sakura literally has no lifting feats, and she's never lifting Gamabunta's sword.  She only punches hard due to chakra, that's it. Tsunade's strength is natural. If she used chakra enhanced strength in part 1 then Kishi would've put it in the second databook.


She has lifting feats, I posted two of them.

Your refusal to accept them means absolutely nothing to me.

Due to those feats, I'm 100% convinced Sakura has super lifting strength and you have nothing that will ever convince me otherwise. 



> I think you're the first person I've seen suggest that Tsunade's strength isn't natural, and that Sakura's chakra enhanced punches give her the ability to lift things.


I'm not at all. 

When we look at Sakura, who did not have super lifting strength, then got it after training with Tsunade only, it's pretty clear Tsunade's lifting strength isn't innate, it's a skill she acquired herself and taught it to her marginally talented student Sakura.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> He physically stood up and moved his arm forward to erect Mokuton when the arrow was less than 5m from him in full flight.
> 
> That's a mental and physical reaction. He simply could not move his body out of the trajectory of the arrow because he was wind blowing himself back onto the bridge and fell onto it as Sasuke fired the arrow, like shooting duck in a barrel.



 He didn't stand up though I'll concede to him reacting because he did raise his arm.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 1, 2016)

Sakura never demonstrated super lifting strength.

She couldn't rip out of a generic rope attached to a kunai.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> But with no sharingan boost he could react and put up a Mokuton shield before it hit him. You and DaWiz says that the Sharingan tomoe boost speed and reaction(unless I have been misreading the discussion the two of you had with M)
> 
> Base Danzo: Reacts to Susanoo arrow, but isn't fast enough to avoid it so puts of a wood shield instead
> 
> ...



It's more about reflexes than physical speed when it comes the Sharingan progression. 

I'm not sure whether 3 Tomoe Danzo could dodge Susano'o arrow, if he can then that pretty much puts Danzo wayyy out of Tsunade's league. 

His bandages being 



~M~ said:


> i just don't get how a person would sacrifice precognition, chakra sense, jutsu mimicry, and from what you guys are attempting to convince me
> 
> A literal speed boost
> 
> ...



Because lasting ten minutes is better than lasting five minutes. Plus, Danzo wanted to last long enough to be able to use Koto.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> He didn't stand up though I'll concede to him reacting because he did raise his arm.


I think he stood up, when the arrow is lodged in the tree I see that he's on his feet bending his back over [1]

Meh, I could be wrong.

At the very least he straightened his arm out and tilted his body.


> Sakura never demonstrated super lifting strength.
> 
> She couldn't rip out of a generic rope attached to a kunai.


She pulled a full speed flying Sasori back 30m with a single tug of his own cord. 
[Tugs him back to keep Chiyo from being hit by weapon as he's flying full speed forward] 
[Weapon misses because he's pulled back as the weapon is coming down and he's still flying forward at full speed but it isn't getting him anywhere] 
[She pulls once more and he flies back 30m] fast enough where he could not do anything 
[She rocks him]

Clearly a display of super strength.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Sakura never demonstrated super lifting strength.
> 
> She couldn't rip out of a generic rope attached to a kunai.







Itachі said:


> It's more about reflexes than physical speed when it comes the Sharingan progression.
> 
> I'm not sure whether 3 Tomoe Danzo could dodge Susano'o arrow, if he can then that pretty much puts Danzo wayyy out of Tsunade's league.
> 
> His bandages being



His bandages being what?

I have a hard time believing that bandaged Danzo = 3 tomoe Kakashi in speed and reflexes. Like M said, I think what we saw is what we got. 

I mean we can take this further. Bandaged Danzo was matching MS Sasuke... MS Sasuke could hang with V1 Ei... Adding three significant tomoe boosts to Danzo could bring him to V2 Ei level, which is something I can never imagine Danzo being able to fight equally with.


----------



## Clowe (Jan 1, 2016)

Wow 14 pages... what is going on here?


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> It's more about reflexes than physical speed when it comes the Sharingan progression.
> 
> I'm not sure whether 3 Tomoe Danzo could dodge Susano'o arrow, if he can then that pretty much puts Danzo wayyy out of Tsunade's league.
> 
> ...



But with a speed boost he should have been able to defeat him in 5 minutes  

You're trying to imply a speed boost would not make him a better fighter, but that's not possible  

Here's how the fight should have started: 

Danzo has 3 tome uncovered 
Needs to use izanagi fewer times due to being sensate 
Still uses it when he needs to 
If he dies, he dies 
If he lives, he can fucking koto obito 

There.  

But it didn't because his bandages do not hold him back.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

He won't save you BringerOfChaos 

You will be eradicated


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

Clowe said:


> Wow 14 pages... what is going on here?



Apparently Danzo is a speedster and Tsunade can't land a hit on him at all.


*@DaViz*

Yes, because Sakura's super strength tore through that rope, right 

I still think Kakashi or part 1 Lee could replicate the pulling feat. It wasn't impressive at all


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Apparently Danzo is a speedster and Tsunade can't land a hit on him at all.


Correction, MS Danzo is a speedster. 

The one you're probably referring to uses one eye, and it's not a Sharingan.



> Yes, because Sakura's super strength tore through that rope, right
> 
> I still think Kakashi or part 1 Lee could replicate the pulling feat. It wasn't impressive at all


Are you implying Lee has average lifting strength?

I'd put my money on Sakura holding him down with a single arm. 

Kakashi has above average strength, but it isn't close to Sakura's in any category. 

Please provide feats that showcase Kakashi can pull back full speed flying Sasori, and then pull him back 30m in a single tug.

Then, name me the human who has replicated this feat in our world, to ensure that the feat Sakura performed isn't therefore "super" as it pertains to humans.


----------



## Clowe (Jan 1, 2016)

Then I would have to agree with BringerOfChaos here, what does an eyeball have to do with muscles? I could understand boosting his reactions but not his movement speed.

With Koto restricted I'm sure Tsuna could tank Danzo's attacks for 10 minutes and proceed to one shot him Saitama style.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Clowe said:


> Wow 14 pages... what is going on here?



Everything from can Tsunade regenerate an arm to is Danzo able to see through his bandage


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Clearly a display of super strength.



That kind of strength isn't _"super"_ for a ninja.

Sasori only weighs 47.3 kgs, which is just barely over 104 pounds.

It's not so impressive a feat as to indicate that she can magnify facets of strength besides striking with Chakra, considering that someone like Part 1 base Lee (who shares a strength statistic with her) could casually rip huge tree roots out of the ground with one hand yet hit Gaara a hundred times and not KO the kid when using 5 gates.

That and the fact that if she could, she should have just ripped out of the rope earlier instead of detonating an explosive note tag.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Correction, MS Danzo is a speedster.
> 
> The one you're probably referring to uses one eye, and it's not a Sharingan.



My mistake... Let me rephrase. 

Danzo was holding back a speed boost and precognition against Sasuke because he's not smart. 




> Are you implying Lee has average lifting strength?



Sakura and team Dosu were impressed with his tree root lifting feat, but do you think any of the Jounin such as Kakashi or Asuma would bat an eye on it? They'd probably say _"that's impressive... For a genin_I don't think part 1 Rock Lee is physically stronger than Kakashi or Asuma. 

Do you think Asuma or Kakashi would be unable to move if they wore Lee's weights? 




> Kakashi has above average strength, but it isn't close to Sakura's in any category.
> 
> Please provide feats that showcase Kakashi can pull Sasori 30m in a single tug.



Simple...

Part 1 Rock lee has the strength feats to do it...

I think Kakashi and any jounin worth their salt is physically stronger than part 1 Rock Lee 


edit: Time to sleep. I will return tomorrow


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> My mistake... Let me rephrase.
> 
> Danzo was holding back a speed boost and precognition against Sasuke because he's not smart.


Good job.

Now you're learning. 



> Sakura and team Dosu were impressed with his tree root lifting feat, but do you think any of the Jounin such as Kakashi or Asuma would bat an eye on it? They'd probably say _"that's impressive... For a genin_I don't think part 1 Rock Lee is physically stronger than Kakashi or Asuma.
> 
> Do you think Asuma or Kakashi would be unable to move if they wore Lee's weights?


Surely. 

He literally grabbed a tree root, and lifted it out of the mountain ground destroying it with one arm to block him and Sakura. 

That's called super human strength. Unless you can name a human on earth that'd be able to do that....

It's Super! 

Sakura has it too!



> Simple...
> 
> Part 1 Rock lee has the strength feats to do it...
> 
> I think Kakashi and any jounin worth their salt is physically stronger than part 1 Rock Lee


Oh? 

So if you're Jounin worth your sault you automatically have super lifting strength?

>Neji (Genius, full body chakra release defense, lethal in one touch, deflected Juubi arms)
>Temari (Kage bodyguard, landing attacks on Base 3rd Raikage)
>Kankuro (Kage bodyguard, acknowledged by Sasori, leader of shinobi alliance's surprise attack division, databook names him best puppeteer in world)
>PT.1 Kabuto (Orochimaru's apprentice, hyped as Part 1 Kakashi's equal, Tsunade acknowledges he could have more potential than she had)
>All garbage lifting strength


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Everything from can Tsunade regenerate an arm to is Danzo able to see through his bandage



Oh and I forgot to mention Sakura is involved too because she's a lithmus test for Tsunade 

Literally the most meta of all threads


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Also Danzo is brain dead (if his bandage does anything but it doesn't or otherwise we're placing Ms Danzo at V2 Raikage tier) 

Tsunade is a genius btw

So she's got that advantage


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

Thanks for updating them.

It was a good run. 

Also thanks for the debate M, I'm glad you see the faults in your reasoning now.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> That kind of strength isn't "super" for a ninja.
> 
> Sasori only weighs 47.3 kgs, which is just barely over 104 pounds.
> 
> ...


Bro, he has several huge durable metal helicopter blades on his back.

Why are you bringing up his naked human body weight? He's no longer a human. 

It's irrelevant anyway. If we're talking human Sasori naked, no human can pull a 104 pound person 30 meters through the air by tugging on a cord attached to them. It is superhuman strength, get over it.

As it pertains to Lee, he was fighting with weights on and performing acrobatic feats that would turn anyone's eye [1] [2]. When he took them off from 10m above on the statue, and merely let them go gently [1], they busted the cement flooring of the CE match grounds [2].

You do realize those weight bands were at least 1,000 pound each? And he had them wrapped around both ankles and was doing the above with them on?

Please explain to me how Lee does not have superhuman lifting strength when he's lifting 2100 pounds over and over to do high-speed somersaults and still moves 2100 pounds fluently enough with his muscles on the ground to avoid Gaara's sand attacks?


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 1, 2016)

That's Sasori's weight. Sasori himself is a puppet that, as can be seen on-panel, is largely hollow. Whatever material it is the puppet is composed of, it isn't heavy.

Also, what I said was that that feat Sakura performed wasn't super _for a ninja_.

Lee's isn't or he would have killed Gaara when they fought.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 1, 2016)

Holy shit part one feats you guys?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> That's Sasori's weight. Sasori himself is a puppet that, as can be seen on-panel, is largely hollow. Whatever material it is the puppet is composed of, it isn't heavy.
> 
> Also, what I said was that that feat Sakura performed wasn't super for a ninja.
> 
> Lee's isn't or he would have killed Gaara when they fought.


That puppet isn't 104 pounds, I guarantee you that. 

The blades on his back alone, which were busting stone while propelling, would exceed that weight.

Lee while lugging around 2100 pounds was performing olympic level acrobatics and avoiding Gaara's sand on the ground. 

He has superhuman lifting strength. 

Lee's lifting strength has absolutely nothing to do with his striking strength, which is what was hitting Gaara the entire time.

"-- A study of seven Olympic boxers in weight classes ranging from flyweight to super heavyweight showed a range of 447 to 1,066 pounds of peak punching force. Energy transferred from punch to target varied widely depending on how heavy the boxers' hands and gloves were, how fast they punched, and how rigidly they held their wrists. The three flyweights, interestingly, delivered more oomph than all but the two super heavyweights."

Stop comparing the ability to lift weight to striking power. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Again, I repeat, pulling a 104 pound man 30 meters across the air down to you while they started out flying in opposite direction at high speed, is 100% superhuman lifting strength, assuming that durable machine covered in metallic weaponry was indeed 104 pounds.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2016)

> "-- A study of seven Olympic boxers...



What the heck?


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 2, 2016)

> 100% superhuman lifting strength



My goodness. Are you doing this _on purpose_?

The question is whether or not that feat is something to be attributed to Tsunade's Chakra-based method of enhancement. Nobody is arguing that it isn't superhuman strength, they're arguing that it's innate strength. Sakura can have superhuman lifting strength innately because she along with every other ninja _*is* a superhuman_. That is the reason Lee is brought up- he can rip tree roots up out of the ground even though he wasn't taught CES by Tsunade; the reason he can do it is that he _is_ a superhuman.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I remember a poster writing a good piece about Tsunade vs Danzo. I'll see if I can dig it up.
> 
> edit: Found it. It was Sadness On Wheels.
> 
> ...



oh em gee



Someone found my debate post to post here.

I'm so touched.  Everyone rep that man.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 2, 2016)

Already ripped him.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> No she has not.
> 
> 
> No Uzumaki/Senju has innate herculean strength, I'm not sure how you drew the conclusion that people from that lineage harbor that innate ability.


Okay scratch her being strong from birth. Tsuande physically has herculean strength unlike sakura. Sakura has not been hyped or proven to have superhuman( when I say superhuman , I mean super compared to the basis of a ninja in this manga) like tsuande. This is supported by her 3 in the DB, placing her far below tsuandes 5, and we both know her 5 is really like a damn 10. 

This whole pulling sasori feat isn't impressive when compared to other feats of ninja who aren't exceptionally strong to begin with. Remember that Sasuke. with almost 0 training could knock a massive bear out with a kick, or Muu lifting a multi ton rock off his body with one arm, or PTS naruto tossing his own body weight like a baseball. The " average " ninja is physically on an entirely different level than the average human. Why are you comparing them? The fastest human in the world runs about 22 miles per hour, while the average ninja in naruto can break the sound barrier. What sakura did was impressive for a human ( clearly) but just above the norm for a shinobi which makes sense given her 3 in the strength stat coupled with the ZERO hype for raw strength.☻


----------



## Jad (Jan 2, 2016)

Tsunade's strength comes from Chakra.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 2, 2016)

Jad said:


> Tsunade's strength comes from Chakra.



Her roof tiered 5 in the strength category comes from chakra ?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2016)

Just like Guy's.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 2, 2016)

Is not strength. It's taijutsu. 

And frankly why does it matter, I'm not reading all of this. Power is power, be it muscle mass or chakra, the two are intertwined: see soft palm technique


----------



## Jad (Jan 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Her roof tiered 5 in the strength category comes from chakra ?



No one said she doesn't have super human natural strength. It's just featless apparently. There was a whole databook expert that explained Tsunade's strength in detail, and it was because of her chakra.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 2, 2016)

Kisame and Gai both have a 5 in Strength and both have displayed impressive feats in the Strength.

 Unfortunately for Tsunade, we can't really quantify her strength, but  her striking strength seemed considerably lower than Gai's and Kisame's or at least it did in Part 1.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 2, 2016)

Jad said:


> No one said she doesn't have super human natural strength. It's just featless apparently. There was a whole databook expert that explained Tsunade's strength in detail, and it was because of her chakra.


Can you show that? 

I remember something about Tsunade apparently using chakra enhanced strength to lift the Tanto in the DB. Which makes a whole Lotta 0 sense tbh. Nonetheless the Manga> Db.

But then there's the fact that kabuto specifically severed her muscles to take away her Herculean strength . Which has nothing to do with her chakra . FlamingRain has convinced me that logically Tsunade didn't use any chakra enhanced moves in part 1, as severing tsunades muscles wouldn't stop her from obliterating his body with a chakra enhanced punch. Sakura who isn't actually naturally strong creates massive craters in stone and her chakra control is inferior to even part 1 tsuande. 

Tsunade has also been stated to have crazy raw strength on top of being a Senju/Uzumaki.


----------



## Jad (Jan 2, 2016)

Here it is


----------



## Veracity (Jan 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Kisame and Gai both have a 5 in Strength and both have displayed impressive feats in the Strength.
> 
> Unfortunately for Tsunade, we can't really quantify her strength, but  her striking strength seemed considerably lower than Gai's and Kisame's or at least it did in Part 1.


Tsuandes striking feats were a lot more impressive than anything Gai and Kisame did in Part 1. Gai and kisame didn't start being super impressive until part 2, and same for tsuande basically .

If you compare part 1 feats from them all then tsaundes liger bomb sized craters( like 3x bigger actually) are >> to anything Kisame or Gai did.

Remember that Kisame was getting blocked by Asuma, and Gais greatest feat was punching a shinobi through a wall while tsuande was creating mulit block sized craters and sending head trauma to someone as durable and rubbery as oro.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Can you show that?
> 
> I remember something about Tsunade apparently using chakra enhanced strength to lift the Tanto in the DB. Which makes a whole Lotta 0 sense tbh. Nonetheless the Manga> Db.



 Why doesn't it make sense?

 She has precise Chakra Control. She simply builds up a lot of chakra within her arms and fists and releases it instantaneously to increase her explosive power needed to chuck Gamabunta's sword. Makes perfect sense to me.

 We also have this:
this

 That confirms that Chakra can be used to enhance one's lifting strength.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 2, 2016)

Part one states physical stamina and chakra network are intertwined somewhere  trust me


----------



## Veracity (Jan 2, 2016)

Jad said:


> Here it is


If that isn't the DB entry for chakra enhanced strentgh then that doesn't disregard all the stuff I've said( especially the kabuto chapters). It just means that her greatest strength feats are from a conjunction of both. I don't see why chakra enhanced strength being brought up means that she used it to lift that tanto. Unless in fact that is a complete entry to chakra enhanced strength


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 2, 2016)

Tsunade could have picked up the sword and then used CES to bound up that high.


----------



## Jad (Jan 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> If that isn't the DB entry for chakra enhanced strentgh then that doesn't disregard all the stuff I've said( especially the kabuto chapters). It just means that her greatest strength feats are from a conjunction of both. I don't see why chakra enhanced strength being brought up means that she used it to lift that tanto. Unless in fact that is a complete entry to chakra enhanced strength



It's a complete entry.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2016)

Rocky said:


> We're not leaving both to Baku's suction. She's using chakra to explode off of the ground, because all she needs to do is ram into Baku to punch a hole in him like a Tsunade-bullet.





~M~ said:


> *Baku dies in one punch *















​


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Kisame and Gai both have a 5 in Strength and both have displayed impressive feats in the Strength.
> 
> Unfortunately for Tsunade, we can't really quantify her strength, but  her striking strength seemed considerably lower than Gai's and Kisame's or at least it did in Part 1.



What made Tsunade's striking strength seem lower than Gai and Kisame's striking strength?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Tsuandes striking feats were a lot more impressive than anything Gai and Kisame did in Part 1. Gai and kisame didn't start being super impressive until part 2, and same for tsuande basically .



 this
 this

 I'm referring to these. Obviously, Part 1 Tsunade has better feats, but I'm using these because they seem to be a representation of Tsunade's Physical Strength as P1 Tsunade has formed bigger craters. 

 The strength displayed in those scans pale in comparison to Base Gai and Kisame's feats in P2, so she's likely on the lower end of the spectrum when it comes to having a 5 in Physical Strength.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Why doesn't it make sense?
> 
> She has precise Chakra Control. She simply builds up a lot of chakra within her arms and fists and releases it instantaneously to increase her explosive power needed to chuck Gamabunta's sword. Makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> ...


Chakra enhanced strength is the build up of chakra and it's release on contact. Tsunade not only lifted the tanto, but guided it , and then slammed it down in place. She would not have been able to do so with one release contact, physical strength needed to be there to accomplish that. Its not like she punched the sword into his mouth.

The method naruto used was different from chakra enhanced strength . so I don't think it should be brought up here.


----------



## Jad (Jan 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Chakra enhanced strength is the build up of chakra and it's release on contact. Tsunade not only lifted the tanto, but guided it , and then slammed it down in place. She would not have been able to do so with one release contact, physical strength needed to be there to accomplish that. Its not like she punched the sword into his mouth.
> 
> The method naruto used was different from chakra enhanced strength . so I don't think it should be brought up here.


Did i not just show you an excerpt that says she used chakra?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> What made Tsunade's striking strength seem lower than Gai and Kisame's striking strength?



 I meant when she's not using CES.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> this
> this
> 
> I'm referring to these. Obviously, Part 1 Tsunade has better feats, but I'm using these because they seem to be a representation of Tsunade's Physical Strength as P1 Tsunade has formed bigger craters.
> ...


She was exhausted by that point. The first craters she made were like 30x bigger.

There's also a major scale gap between part 1 and part 2(power inflation).It's why Tobiramas suiton was said to be part of a "hokage " level battle while in part 2 the basic suiton user can even exceed that.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 2, 2016)

> I'm referring to these.



Why take the fatigued feats as representative of Tsunade's physical strength instead of, say, _this_?



> I meant when she's not using CES.



I know. Still wondering, though.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> She was exhausted by that point. The first craters she made were like 30x bigger.



 I know she was which is why it could be similar to her actual Physical Strength. Of course, we won't actually know because she's featless.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Why take the fatigued feats as representative of Tsunade's physical strength instead of, say, _this_?



 I'm trying to get a good grasp of her actual Physical Strength, not her CES.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 2, 2016)

Jad said:


> Did i not just show you an excerpt that says she used chakra?



Part of that tango feat had to be physical strength is what I'm saying basically.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I know she was which is why it could be similar to her actual Physical Strength. Of course, we won't actually know because she's featless.



Well the fact that she was exhuasted was stressed heavily on at least 2 different levels in that scene. So I think a better feat would be her fresh feats considering Part 1 Kisame and Part 1 Gai only have fresh feats basically.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm trying to get a good grasp of her actual Physical Strength, not her CES.



Is there a good reason to think that Tsunade couldn't have just hit the wall without CES, though?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Chakra enhanced strength is the build up of chakra and it's release on contact. Tsunade not only lifted the tanto, but guided it , and then slammed it down in place. She would not have been able to do so with one release contact, physical strength needed to be there to accomplish that. Its not like she punched the sword into his mouth.



 I know that. Due to her refined Chakra Control, she can still enhance her Physical Strength much more considerably compared to others by storing large amounts of chakra within her arms which increases her lifting strength because again, most ninja can do it, but obviously to a far lesser degree.

  But what I'm saying is that she simply released all of the that was gathered in her arms to create the explosive power needed to throw the Blade.



> The method naruto used was different from chakra enhanced strength . so I don't think it should be brought up here.



 It's merely a representation that Chakra in general can be used to enhance someone's lifting strength. Tsunade should be quite efficient at it considering she's the most exceptional Medical Ninjutsu user in the manga and she can store chakra within a single point (her Yin Seal), so storing Chakra within her arms and maintaining that level of Chakra Control shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Is there a good reason to think that Tsunade couldn't have just hit the wall without CES, though?



 She was attempting to threaten Orochimaru by displaying her strength. Is there a reason she would hold back when threatening a Sannin?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> My goodness. Are you doing this _on purpose_?
> 
> The question is whether or not that feat is something to be attributed to Tsunade's Chakra-based method of enhancement. Nobody is arguing that it isn't superhuman strength, they're arguing that it's innate strength. Sakura can have superhuman lifting strength innately because she along with every other ninja _*is* a superhuman_. That is the reason Lee is brought up- he can rip tree roots up out of the ground even though he wasn't taught CES by Tsunade; the reason he can do it is that he _is_ a superhuman.


All ninja are super human because they possess chakra and potential to harness it into super powers. 

That doesn't mean every ninja has super human lifting strength or that they have what it takes to acquire it. 

Lee attained that superhuman strength through intense training for years under Might Gai's program, he was branded a genius of hard work and a taijutsu specialist because of this. 

Sakura does not have access to this program, nor do I believe she has the patience or spirit to acquire the skills that Lee did through those years of hard training. 

The question was where Tsunade's lifting strength derived from. Sakura's name was brought up because I brought feats into it that directly imply she has superhuman lifting strength, something most shinobi do not possess. And because Sakura trained under Tsunade, it was my belief that she acquired the skill from Tsunade, and that it was not innate, and the type of innate we're talking about here is "I was born with it" kind of innate, not "I trained to acquire it because every shinobi can be super strong if they train hard enough" innate.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2016)

I spent 10 minutes on that and all you want to talk about is who can lift.

btw Shizune sprang 100 feet in the air carrying a person, and she is petite waifu material so Flaming Rain is flaming rightness.  

Even Tonton carried a bunch of heavy crates.  u gonna tell me a pig gained super lifting strength training under Tsunade?  come on...


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 2, 2016)

> Didn't it only cut through Susanoo because it was boosted by Baku? Without the Baku boost it'd do jack to Susanoo.



He can summon Baku if he wants to.



> I don't think his base fuuton can cut harder than the sword of Kusanagi which can supposedly cut diamond and harm Enma in his Adamanatine Staff form.



His Futon is good enough to make Tsunade skin-less, for example, or cut her multiple times. She wil need lots of chakra to heal that. And Danzo wont give her an opportunity to use her Byakugou seal.



> Also, Tsunade could just replicate Sakura's ground pound feat(Hashi said Sakura "might" be stronger than Tsunade)... The shockwave was huge, and made the Juubi minions look like specs. Danzo isn't outrunning it, he'll be launched midair where he can't dodge.



Assuming she'll have a chance to do so while being attacked by multiple Futons. Also, Danzo is faster than her and can imobilise her with seal.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 2, 2016)

> The type of innate we're talking about here is "I was born with it" kind of innate, not "I trained to acquire it because every shinobi can be super strong if they train hard enough" innate.



So wait, before I continue...are you, or aren't you arguing that Sakura used the Chakra-charging technique to pull off the Sasori feat?

Because I meant "innate" as in able to be pulled off with actual physical strength instead of that Jutsu.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> She was attempting to threaten Orochimaru by displaying her strength. Is there a reason she would hold back when threatening a Sannin?



It was a warning shot.

She wouldn't really need to exercise her full power with Chakra there because Orochimaru was already familiar with her, having worked alongside her since childhood into early adulthood.

I mean we know she could have done worse because the impact of Tsūtenkyaku hit _the ground_ so hard that there was enough excess shock to destroy another sizable portion of that wall as well as yet another across from it.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 2, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> ​



 

This thread in a nutshell


----------



## Bringer (Jan 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Good job.
> 
> Surely.
> 
> ...



Except you forget, that even Part 1 Sakura and even Karin have speed and strength that would be considered super human strength by our standards. I'd say the average ninja could lift hundreds of pounds easy. 




> Oh?
> 
> So if you're Jounin worth your sault you automatically have super lifting strength?
> 
> ...



Of course there would be some exceptions... But are you saying that if any of these characters you mentioned wore Lee's weights they wouldn't be able to walk?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 2, 2016)

~M~ said:


>



You didn't need to confirm my argument but thanks.. I guess..


----------



## Itachі (Jan 2, 2016)

Yeah, iirc Danzo w/Baku has done much more damage to Susano'o than Tsunade ever has.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 2, 2016)

He made a 'gap' in incomplete susanoo, not even moving it. 

Tsunade smashed wood clone complete susanoo into the ground like a child 

That's completely subjective, selective reading and interpretation. For whatever force to make a gap with blades, on an unmoving target, is lesser than taking out a harder, larger, mobile version. There mere fact its mobile mitigates breakage because it diffuses force. 

So basically you're claiming Danzo with Baku easily knocks over complete susanoo. If you really believe that it's great but hyped as hell. 

Secondly crushing susanoo' ribs is no small matter they're the first and most integral part of the creature. But you would t understand that because you're asking a fist to do a knifes work. He cut, she smashed.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 2, 2016)

Sasuke's Incomplete Susano'o > Madara's Ribcage Susano'o

Regardless of whether he could knock down Susano'o or not, he did far more damage to it.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> It was a warning shot.
> 
> She wouldn't really need to exercise her full power with Chakra there because Orochimaru was already familiar with her, having worked alongside her since childhood into early adulthood.



 Her expression seemed quite serious about her intent to kill him and flaunting her full strength is something I think she would do under that circumstance. 

 Of course, you bring up a good point there, but each of the Sannin improved during that time period, so I'm assuming that Tsunade used her CES in that scenario to remind himself what he's up against. 



> I mean we know she could have done worse because the impact of Tsūtenkyaku hit _the ground_ so hard that there was enough excess shock to destroy another sizable portion of that wall as well as yet another across from it.



 Can you post the scan of what you're referring to?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> So wait, before I continue...are you, or aren't you arguing that Sakura used the Chakra-charging technique to pull off the Sasori feat?
> 
> Because I meant "innate" as in able to be pulled off with actual physical strength instead of that Jutsu.


I'm arguing she either found a way to utilize her advanced chakra control to enhance her lifting strength because Tsunade may do that also, or Tsunade had a special training program that allowed Sakura to gain the advanced lifting strength because Tsunade mat have trained like that to become strong also. 

The innate that was being debated earlier was whether or not Tsunade was born with the immaculate lifting strength, ergo inborn (innate), from the time she came out of her mother. 

I disagreed, using Sakura as a supporting example, Sakura wasn't born with the strength yet attained it while training under Tsunade for over two years- meaning Tsunade most likely wasn't born with it either because it's fairy obvious she taught how to acquire it to Sakura.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 2, 2016)

~M~ said:


> He made a 'gap' in incomplete susanoo, not even moving it.
> 
> Tsunade smashed wood clone complete susanoo into the ground like a child
> 
> ...




Sasuke's V3 > Madara's V1.5(big ribcage and spine)

And Tsunade couldn't breach Madara's V1.5 with a single hit. She hit it first, then Mei's suiton hit it, and then Tsunade hit it in combination with Onoki/A combo and only she was able to take a chunk of it. 

Clearly Danzo's fuuton did more damage over a bigger area.


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 2, 2016)

So the single hit was inferior to a hand signed, named, multi part attack  

Later it still knocks over wood clone susanoo, and in tandem had broken pieces off of susanoo. It really isn't significant because no one is going to believe it's beyond a sanin's realm of ability to defeat susanoo. If you think it's the case make a thread and have the people decide.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> I'm arguing she either found a way to utilize her advanced chakra control to enhance her lifting strength because Tsunade may do that also, or Tsunade had a special training program that allowed Sakura to gain the advanced lifting strength because Tsunade mat have trained like that to become strong also.
> 
> The innate that was being debated earlier was whether or not Tsunade was born with the immaculate lifting strength, ergo inborn (innate), from the time she came out of her mother.
> 
> I disagreed, using Sakura as a supporting example, Sakura wasn't born with the strength yet attained it while training under Tsunade for over two years- meaning Tsunade most likely wasn't born with it either because it's fairy obvious she taught how to acquire it to Sakura.



Orrr Tsunade has natural strength, but also uses chakra enhanced strength, while Sakura relies solely on chakra enhanced strength. We also know Sakura has no decent lifting feats, and the examples you provided were simply underwhelming. Plus, if Sakura could had super upper body strength she could've just shrugged and tore through the rope. 

We already know Kishi considers Tsunade to have super strength because her 5 in the databook. Kishi doesn't include enhancements in the stats. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke's V3 > Madara's V1.5(big ribcage and spine)
> 
> And Tsunade couldn't breach Madara's V1.5 with a single hit. She hit it first, then Mei's suiton hit it, and then Tsunade hit it in combination with Onoki/A combo and only she was able to take a chunk of it.
> 
> Clearly Danzo's fuuton did more damage over a bigger area.



Mei's suiton didn't really do much but propel it further in the air, and Onoki and Ei's attack only served the purpose of "grounding" the Susanoo for Tsunade.  Cracking Susanoo from behind isn't really helping Tsuande breaking Susanoo from the front.  Had Tsunade kicked it without them then Madara's Susanoo would've just been sent further into the air, so that's why they kept it in place for her.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 2, 2016)

> We also know Sakura has no decent lifting feats, and the examples you provided were simply underwhelming.


They weren't underwhelming at all. 

You could not issue a solid explanation for several high ranking jonin who have garbage lifting strength, directly proving Sakura's lifting strength was not a normality for Jounin. 



> >Neji (Genius, full body chakra release defense, lethal in one touch, deflected Juubi arms)
> >Temari (Kage bodyguard, landing attacks on Base 3rd Raikage)
> >Kankuro (Kage bodyguard, acknowledged by Sasori, leader of shinobi alliance's surprise attack division, databook names him best puppeteer in world)
> >PT.1 Kabuto (Orochimaru's apprentice, hyped as Part 1 Kakashi's equal, Tsunade acknowledges he could have more potential than she had)
> >All garbage lifting strength



And prior to that, you failed to provide feats suggesting people like Kakashi & Naruto could perform the feat Sakura did. 

So you failed to sweep it under "every Jounin has that strength", and you failed to sweep it under "average strength shinobi like Kakashi and Naruto could do that"

So please stop making baseless statements that it was underwhelming when what you have provided in explanation got wreckt by my counters, and will continue to get wreckt by my counters.



> We already know Kishi considers Tsunade to have super strength because her 5 in the databook. Kishi doesn't include enhancements in the stats.


Neji is a 4.5 in speed, Deidara is a 4.5 in speed. 

Tsunade is a 3.5 in speed.

Do you agree with this?

Please bring up the databook again, so I can trash it worse.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> They weren't underwhelming at all.
> 
> You could not issue a solid explanation for several high ranking jonin who have garbage lifting strength, directly proving Sakura's lifting strength was super.
> 
> ...



You still never answered my question.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 2, 2016)

> You still never answered my question.


Absolutely not. 

None of them would even lift a single weight with both arms.



> Except you forget, that even *Part 1 Sakura and even Karin* have speed and *strength that would be considered super human strength* by our standards.


What the fuck is this?

No the hell they do not.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Her expression seemed quite serious about her intent to kill him.



Yeah, _because_ it was a warning.



> Can you post the scan of what you're referring to?



_This_ would take a harder hit _than_ _this_.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 2, 2016)

You seem to think Naruto characters have regular human level speed and strength unless stated otherwise. As I stated earlier, Part 1 Sakura and Karin have strength and speed that's already beyond peak human by our standards. You seem to think part 2 Sakura's feat was impressive because it is impressive by real life standards, but in the Narutoverse I could only see a genin thinking of that as a strength feat. 

Part 1 Rock Lee's speed and strength were considered good for a genin, but I'll just have to say hell to the no if you think he's physically stronger than the Jounin cast, or can speed blitz any of the Jounin cast.

What's next, are you saying Jiraiya and Orochimaru couldn't move with any of the weights Lee wore? What about Minato or Itachi, they have no strength feats. But, I think all of these Shinobi could move with the weights just like Lee could. 



> Neji is a 4.5 in speed, Deidara is a 4.5 in speed.
> 
> Tsunade is a 3.5 in speed.
> 
> ...



You already heard me say before that databook stats are bad when it comes to discussing fights(stat wise Asuma should've schooled Hidan, and Ino in Choji's slower body could engage with Asuma in hand to hand combat). However they can be used to gauge Kishi's view on things. We know he doesn't take body flicker into consideration when making the speed stat, and we know he doesn't take enhanced strength into consideration because Sakura would have of had a 5.  



> What the fuck is this?
> 
> No the hell they do not.



 

Part 1 Sakura would lap you(or me) effortlessly in a race, could beat our asses, and could carry us with ease... And she's fucking 12.  Hell, Karin, who is practically fodder before she got her chains slapped one of Orochimaru's inmates around in her introduction. 

Hell do you think Sakura set up her log trap against Team Dosu, unconscious Naruto and Sasuke sure as hell didn't set up the trap for her(hint... Someone had to lift the giant ass log) 

I can't believe it. You actually think people in real life can be as physically strong and fast as the part 1 genin


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 2, 2016)

Pretty sure Neji also finger popped someone through a tree.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 2, 2016)

> I'm arguing she either found a way to utilize her advanced chakra control to enhance her lifting strength because Tsunade may do that also, or Tsunade had a special training program that allowed Sakura to gain the advanced lifting strength because Tsunade mat have trained like that to become strong also.



Okay.

Doing that would be out of accordance with the description of Chakra-enhanced strength and make Sakura very stupid for not applying it when escaping Sasori's rope, so I'd be inclined to think that Sakura's physicality simply improved to that level during their training sessions as opposed to her figuring out how to apply Chakra control to enhance more than her striking power.

The Lee example would point toward Sakura being able to believably pull off something like that without using advanced Chakra control to enhance her strength. Anko would point to it too, since she also scores a 3 and with it yanked Orochimaru over to the tree branch she was standing on _from where he was_. It's unlikely that Sasori's propellers would weigh as much as the Kubikiribōchō, yet _look what Sasuke did with apparent ease..._.

Etc.

Sakura could bust Hiruko because Tsunade taught her how to instantaneously knead Chakra into her limbs and release it into a target upon impact.

Sakura put herself at risk resorting to an explosive note because that ability didn't apply to other facets of physical power.

Sakura could yank Sasori to her because Tsunade beat her into a greater physical condition over the years.

I'm sure Tsunade would have trained to get stronger even if did have naturally crazy strength, since she was after all a ninja who was participating in a war before she ever became a medic ninja (CES is an application of medical ninjutsu).


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 3, 2016)

> You seem to think Naruto characters have regular human level speed and strength unless stated otherwise. As I stated earlier, Part 1 Sakura and Karin have strength and speed that's already beyond peak human by our standards. You seem to think part 2 Sakura's feat was impressive because it is impressive by real life standards, but in the Narutoverse I could only see a genin thinking of that as a strength feat.


Speed is on thing. Strength is another. 

I never claimed they didn't have superhuman speed, I claimed they don't all have super human lifting strength. 

Part 1 Sakura does not have above peak human strength, neither does any version of Karin. 



> Part 1 Rock Lee's speed and strength were considered good for a genin, but I'll just have to say hell to the no if you think he's physically stronger than the Jounin cast, or can speed blitz any of the Jounin cast.


He would easily pick up Kurenai and power bomb her into the ground if it was merely a test of strength and speak or technique did not factor in. 

Neji gets the same.

PT.1 Kabuto gets the same.

Kankuro gets the same.

Temari gets the same.

Shikamaru gets the same.

All Jounin who get hulked by genin Lee. 



> What's next, are you saying Jiraiya and Orochimaru couldn't move with any of the weights Lee wore? What about Minato or Itachi, they have no strength feats. But, I think all of these Shinobi could move with the weights just like Lee could.


Orochimaru probably can due to his body enhancements. 

Base Jiraiya? Don't know. I'd like to believe he's fairy strong. 



> You already heard me say before that databook stats are bad when it comes to discussing fights(stat wise Asuma should've schooled Hidan, and Ino in Choji's slower body could engage with Asuma in hand to hand combat). However they can be used to gauge Kishi's view on things. We know he doesn't take body flicker into consideration when making the speed stat, and we know he doesn't take enhanced strength into consideration because Sakura would have of had a 5.


Then don't bring them up again. 


> Part 1 Sakura would lap you(or me) effortlessly in a race, could beat our asses, and could carry us with ease... And she's fucking 12.  Hell, Karin, who is practically fodder before she got her chains slapped one of Orochimaru's inmates around in her introduction.


Of course she has superhuman speed, she does not have superhuman strength though.

If you believe PT.1 Sakura or Karen have superhuman strength feel free to post scans proving such.

Until you do, I won't address this point again. 



> Hell do you think Sakura set up her log trap against Team Dosu, unconscious Naruto and Sasuke sure as hell didn't set up the trap for her(hint... Someone had to lift the giant ass log)


Would you mind posting the scan of Sakura picking the log up and moving it?



> I can't believe it. You actually think people in real life can be as physically strong and fast as the part 1 genin


I don't where you got this theory from. 

People like Shino, Tenten and Ino definitely didn't appear to have superhuman strength in any panel. 

Your assumptions are baseless.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 3, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Part 1 Sakura does not have above peak human strength, neither does any version of Karin.



Enough strength to punch Ino in the face and watch her fly several meters backwards. [1] And enough strength to throw a kunai with enough force to catch 40kg Naruto mid-fall.

Can peak humans replicate those feats? I'm not so sure.

Karin has no overly impressive strength feats, other than kicking a door down, but then she was never in an actual battle by herself.​​


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 3, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Enough strength to punch Ino in the face and watch her fly several meters backwards. [1] And enough strength to throw a kunai with enough force to catch 40kg Naruto mid-fall.
> 
> Can peak humans replicate those feats? I'm not so sure.
> 
> Karin has no overly impressive strength feats, other than kicking a door down, but then she was never in an actual battle by herself.​​


Superhuman lifting strength is what I said. 

That's a striking strength feature enhanced by the speed of her shunshin, and Ino looks to weigh about 80 pounds. I know quite a few fighters that could knock an 80 pound girl over and have her skid a meter across the floor with a running superman punch, and they don't even need Sakura's superhuman shunshin speed to enhance it's power. 

Not sure what you're talking about as it pertains to the kunai feature you didn't post a scan for.

Put the 80 pound girl in this punch's trajectory , but tell Tyson to move back a couple feet and run to punch, and you have yourself a flying girl.

As it pertains to peak human strength in general, in our world (not what's considered in most of fiction, because peak strength for most comic and manga debaters means bending several inch thick steel bars, punching people through brick walls and pressing 1200 pounds), Sakura doesn't have it. The record for bench press in our world was 1100 pounds, the record for squatting was 1200, Sakura probably can't lift half that.


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## Bringer (Jan 3, 2016)

skeletal Susano'o

So, DaViz... Mind telling me how Sakura set up that log trap? I don't suppose you think she set up the trap by lifting the log with her mind.


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## Itachі (Jan 3, 2016)

Tsunade's limb regen, Danzo's Futon, Tsunade's durability, Danzo's speed, Sharingan precognition and now Part 1 Sakura's strength.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2016)

Danzo can summon Baku and then cut Tsunade to peaces with his Futon, Danzo can use just his Futon in order to harm her, making her spend chakra on regeneration, Danzo is faster than her and can paralise her with seal. Come on, guys... Tsunade is outclassed here.


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## Mithos (Jan 4, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Danzo can summon Baku and then cut Tsunade to peaces with his Futon, Danzo can use just his Futon in order to harm her, making her spend chakra on regeneration, Danzo is faster than her and can paralise her with seal. Come on, guys... Tsunade is outclassed here.



She's outclassed by some Futon and a summon that she can one-shot? 

The seal is dangerous but he has to get close to use it, and without Izanagi approaching her means death.


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## Rocky (Jan 4, 2016)

Yeah, Ino was 84lbs in Part I. There are quite a few people on this planet that can curl that for a warm-up.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2016)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> She's outclassed by some Futon and a summon that she can one-shot?
> 
> The seal is dangerous but he has to get close to use it, and without Izanagi approaching her means death.



The summon which, according to Narutoverse legend, can devour nightmares. We dont know what Tsunade can do if Baku devours her. But even if she is static, she gets immobilised and that gives Danzo an opportunity to cut her into peaces to the point when she wont be able to regenerate.

No it doesnt mean death when he is a lot faster than her overall.

Anyway, Danzo doesnt need the seal, or Baku - he can cut Tsunade with his Futon until she is out of chakra. Then, Tsunade gets killed.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 8, 2016)

Question

Someone said earlier Tsunade could not get through an inferior Susan thingy from Madara.

What's this then? I'm honestly asking since someone showed this to me and I can't really make it  out. I hate manga action scenes

*Spoiler*: __


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## Veracity (Jan 9, 2016)

Tsuande kicked open that Ribcage Sussano by herself. That is indeed a fact.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 9, 2016)

Oh...well then shame on me for listening to people in this thread. 

Thanks for the reply.


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## Veracity (Jan 9, 2016)

Here's more explanation:Tsuande with her released seal could obliterate sussano with one kick. I hear lots of talk saying tsuande received help with that feat but that is actually false. She needed help Landing the blow, but the damage inflicted upon sussano was 100℅ tsunade. Some say it took 2 blows because tsuande already hit the sussano here:☻ probably look something like this., but most don't realize that Madaras sussano regenerates taken damage. Notice that after tsuandes blow and a huge ass water suiton from Mei, that the damage is already regenerated once tsuande kicks the sussano again: probably look something like this., so now we can agree that tsuande did that damage with one kick. But wait am I forgetting that Ay/Onnoki was there ? Naw I'm not. We know for a fact that Onnoki did not increase Ays weight as Ay with increased weight does this much damags : probably look something like this., which is a lot more than the small cracks put in sussano in the panel before. So its clear that the Kage knew tsuande could bust sussano as they made a plan for her to create and opening to do so. Kinda sounds a lot like the scene literally 4 panels later of them creating another opening for tsuande. And not a single kage was surprised at the damage tsuande displayed in both scenes.☻ But then I also expect some posters to say " how are we so quick to dismiss the very very very little damage Ay/onnoki did on the whole opposite side of the sussano?" Well Danzo split the whole back of sasukes sussano open : probably look something like this., and there was no damage dome to the front. Hashirama created a huge opening in PS,☻ yet the bottom of the structure wasn't damaged: probably look something like this.. ETC ETC ETC. I kinda see sussano like an eggshell and I like to think that Ay and Onnokis goal was to stop Madara so tsuande could land that attack.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Here's more explanation:Tsuande with her released seal could obliterate sussano with one kick. I hear lots of talk saying tsuande received help with that feat but that is actually false. She needed help Landing the blow, but the damage inflicted upon sussano was 100℅ tsunade. Some say it took 2 blows because tsuande already hit the sussano here:☻ probably look something like this., but most don't realize that Madaras sussano regenerates taken damage. Notice that after tsuandes blow and a huge ass water suiton from Mei, that the damage is already regenerated once tsuande kicks the sussano again: probably look something like this., so now we can agree that tsuande did that damage with one kick. But wait am I forgetting that Ay/Onnoki was there ? Naw I'm not. We know for a fact that Onnoki did not increase Ays weight as Ay with increased weight does this much damags : probably look something like this., which is a lot more than the small cracks put in sussano in the panel before. So its clear that the Kage knew tsuande could bust sussano as they made a plan for her to create and opening to do so. Kinda sounds a lot like the scene literally 4 panels later of them creating another opening for tsuande. And not a single kage was surprised at the damage tsuande displayed in both scenes.☻ But then I also expect some posters to say " how are we so quick to dismiss the very very very little damage Ay/onnoki did on the whole opposite side of the sussano?" Well Danzo split the whole back of sasukes sussano open : probably look something like this., and there was no damage dome to the front. Hashirama created a huge opening in PS,☻ yet the bottom of the structure wasn't damaged: Link removed. ETC ETC ETC. I kinda see sussano like an eggshell and I like to think that Ay and Onnokis goal was to stop Madara so tsuande could land that attack.



Weighted Ei probably couldnt use Aggravated Rock Technique while being in the air. And the fact is - Madara's Susanoo was damaged before that kick by Ei's weighted chop.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2016)

Anyway, Danzo has ranged Futons, good stamina thanks to Hashirama's cells, Baku, which he can use in a combination with his Futons, paralising seal and he is faster. He takes this.


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## Jad (Jan 9, 2016)

Man these Tsunade threada generate a ton of pages.


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## Itachі (Jan 9, 2016)

Jad said:


> Man these Tsunade threada generate a ton of pages.



I forgot about this thread, curse you.


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## ~M~ (Jan 9, 2016)

This thread  it's because Tsunade is a lot of weird gray areas when it comes to battle power


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Here's more explanation:Tsuande with her released seal could obliterate sussano with one kick. I hear lots of talk saying tsuande received help with that feat but that is actually false. She needed help Landing the blow, but the damage inflicted upon sussano was 100℅ tsunade. Some say it took 2 blows because tsuande already hit the sussano here:☻ Link removed, but most don't realize that Madaras sussano regenerates taken damage. Notice that after tsuandes blow and a huge ass water suiton from Mei, that the damage is already regenerated once tsuande kicks the sussano again: Link removed, so now we can agree that tsuande did that damage with one kick. But wait am I forgetting that Ay/Onnoki was there ? Naw I'm not. We know for a fact that Onnoki did not increase Ays weight as Ay with increased weight does this much damags : Link removed, which is a lot more than the small cracks put in sussano in the panel before. So its clear that the Kage knew tsuande could bust sussano as they made a plan for her to create and opening to do so. Kinda sounds a lot like the scene literally 4 panels later of them creating another opening for tsuande. And not a single kage was surprised at the damage tsuande displayed in both scenes.☻ But then I also expect some posters to say " how are we so quick to dismiss the very very very little damage Ay/onnoki did on the whole opposite side of the sussano?" Well Danzo split the whole back of sasukes sussano open : Link removed, and there was no damage dome to the front. Hashirama created a huge opening in PS,☻ yet the bottom of the structure wasn't damaged: Link removed. ETC ETC ETC. I kinda see sussano like an eggshell and I like to think that Ay and Onnokis goal was to stop Madara so tsuande could land that attack.



This = 10/10 post.
One attack from Tsunade can crush Danzo. If anything Orochimaru's part 1 statements back this up. She regenerates any cut limbs but not that that would even happen in the manga. Katsuyu makes Baku suck some acid into his mouth. In Byakugo Mode Tsunade can fight and beat Danzo. Hes immortal for 10 mins over 4 chapters but Byakugo lasted ages there was even off screen fighting with Madara.

Tsunade wins this


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## Bringer (Jan 9, 2016)

~M~ said:


> This thread  it's because Tsunade is a lot of weird gray areas when it comes to battle power



No one agrees on anything when it comes to Tsunade 

How strong is she?
Does she rely solely on chakra to be strong?
Does she have Chunin level speed?
Does she have genin level taijutsu? 
Exactly what can she regenerate?
Is Katsuyu really a god?


Literally every facet of her arsenal is put into question.


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## Veracity (Jan 9, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Weighted Ei probably couldnt use Aggravated Rock Technique while being in the air. And the fact is - Madara's Susanoo was damaged before that kick by Ei's weighted chop.



I've already answered those in the post so..


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## Itachі (Jan 11, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Does she have genin level taijutsu?



I think that a lot of people overestimate Tsunade tbh. A lot of people pretend that she's some extremely skilled Taijutsu master. It seems to me like strength is the only area that she's above average in when it comes to Taijutsu, she's extremely strong but I haven't seen anything that encourages me to call her skilled or anything like that (in terms of pure Taijutsu prowess). Give any decent combatants like Kakashi her strength and they could do better. Though Tsunade's Chakra control is certainly top tier. She's got monstrous strength and that's it, her strikes are linear and she isn't a technical fighter. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I may be forgetting something.


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## Rocky (Jan 11, 2016)

"Skill" is impossible to define. For example, which is more difficult to learn: Killer B's Acrobat, or Yagai? Probably the latter...and Yagai is a nothing more than a linear kick. Tsunade can be linear & slow yet still be tremendously skilled in taijutsu if she knows how to use what she has.


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## ~M~ (Jan 11, 2016)

She's a 5 in taijutsu. That means she would man handle the earth's greatest martial artists.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> It seems to me like strength is the only area that she's above average in when it comes to Taijutsu, she's extremely strong but I haven't seen anything that encourages me to call her skilled or anything like that (in terms of pure Taijutsu prowess).



Skill in regards to Taijutsu is knowing how to most efficiently respond to whichever maneuvers the opponent opts to use at any given point.

Tsunade being highly skilled in Taijutsu seems like a given even if you were to set the databook aside.

She was a prodigy since childhood, but didn't become a medical specialist until the Nawaki incident which was after the Second Great Ninja War had started.

She _could have_ simply ripped apart the ground Naruto was running across at the very beginning, instead of jabbing the pressure point in his wrist through the hole in the kunai he was using in order to take it, knocking his headband off with it and proceeding to flick Naruto into the spot the kunai was about to land directly in front of. Somewhere in there she also jacked froggy.

That was a precision-based approach, and one that was taken when Tsunade was retired and inebriated, which would in turn speak volumes for a sober Tsunade actually on form.

Kabuto also felt that he needed to switch to a different location, wait until Tsunade was out-of-breath and then pop a Hyōrōgan before actually engaging her, _even though he could use a Jutsu that could counter Tsunade's insane strength with as much as a brief tap_.

So...her power was always simply another factor that made her more dangerous, not _the_ trait that gave her a competitive presence.


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## Veracity (Jan 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I think that a lot of people overestimate Tsunade tbh. A lot of people pretend that she's some extremely skilled Taijutsu master. It seems to me like strength is the only area that she's above average in when it comes to Taijutsu, she's extremely strong but I haven't seen anything that encourages me to call her skilled or anything like that (in terms of pure Taijutsu prowess). Give any decent combatants like Kakashi her strength and they could do better. Though Tsunade's Chakra control is certainly top tier. She's got monstrous strength and that's it, her strikes are linear and she isn't a technical fighter. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I may be forgetting something.


Except tsuande has a 5 in taijutsu and has been claimed to be unsurpassable in cqc by jirayia. That pretty much ends your post right there. 

I dislike the fact that people assume you need to be doing backflips like rock Lee in order to be good in Cqc or taijustu... Captain America's cqc isn't anything like spider mans , yet he's arguably just as skilled as he is even without the enhanced reflexes.☻ The way in which tsuande chooses to fight , maximizes her potential to land attacks as she has regeneration and super strength.☻ Flipping everywhere with twists and turns doesn't stop you from getting hit by someone either faster than you, or a enemy that outnumbers you. 

Not like she hasn't already mastered evasion anyway, and just chooses not to use it times as her regeneration buffers an attack and creates any opening for a strike.


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## Rocky (Jan 11, 2016)

I don't remember Jiraiya ever calling her "unsurpassed in close combat." I think he said that nobody could stand shoulder to shoulder with her in combat _period_. As in– all ranges. That falls into the hyperbolic statement category. It means that Tsunade is powerful, not that she is peerless. I mean, Jiraiya is one of her equals...


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## Bonly (Jan 11, 2016)

>Gets a 5 in the taijutsu stat
>Gets called overrated and average

Allofmylols. What's next Itachi is average in speed even with his five in speed lol


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## Veracity (Jan 11, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I don't remember Jiraiya ever calling her "unsurpassed in close combat." I think he said that nobody could stand shoulder to shoulder with her in combat _period_. As in? all ranges. That falls into the hyperbolic statement category. It means that Tsunade is powerful, not that she is peerless. I mean, Jiraiya is one of her equals...



You have the viz translation ??


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## Rocky (Jan 11, 2016)

I don't have that volume, but FlamingRain does I think. He can probably tell you what it says. I know the "shoulder to shoulder" thing is from the viz at least, so somebody showed it to me before lol.


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## Veracity (Jan 11, 2016)

Lol okay well hopefully FlamingRain sees this and posts it. Though I'm pretty sure it is something along those lines.  I think he was vague and said combat in general.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

Jiraiya says:

_*"Not only did she contribute greatly towards Kenosha's victory during the turbulent era of the great war...// but there are still none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle or medical Jutsu."*_​


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## ~M~ (Jan 11, 2016)

Linear doesn't mean she isn't flexible which I would probably argue she is


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## Bringer (Jan 11, 2016)

Shit, Lee who uses Gai's style of fighting was called linear by Kimmimaru.


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## Itachі (Jan 11, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Skill in regards to Taijutsu is knowing how to most efficiently respond to whichever maneuvers the opponent opts to use at any given point.
> 
> Tsunade being highly skilled in Taijutsu seems like a given even if you were to set the databook aside.
> 
> ...



That's skillful, I admit.



Bonly said:


> >Gets a 5 in the taijutsu stat
> >Gets called overrated and average
> 
> Allofmylols. What's next Itachi is average in speed even with his five in speed lol



I never said that she was average, I just said that I didn't see her as skilled in terms of Taijutsu. Hidan has a 5 in Ninjutsu, would you say that he's skilled? Citing the databook alone as a measure of skill is a shit argument. 



Likes boss said:


> Except tsuande has a 5 in taijutsu and has been claimed to be unsurpassable in cqc by jirayia. That pretty much ends your post right there.



Stopped reading here. You could have posted an example like FlamingRain did but instead you rely on hype and the Databook as the be-all and end-all...


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## Rocky (Jan 11, 2016)

Kimimaro's style of fighting is more comparable to B's than to Gai's or Lee. Iron Fist isn't really known for being difficult to read. It's more power & speed based, which is why the Gates suit them so well.


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## Bonly (Jan 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I never said that she was average, I just said that I didn't see her as skilled in terms of Taijutsu.



"It seems to me like *strength is the only area* that she's above average in when it comes to Taijutsu"

That seems like your saying strength is the only thing above average when it comes to her taijutsu does it not?



> Hidan has a 5 in Ninjutsu, would you say that he's skilled?



Sure, Ninjutsu stats revolves around both knowledge of ninjutsu and proficiency upon which I see no reason for me not to call him unskilled if Kishi thinks so in that area.



> Citing the databook alone as a measure of skill is a shit argument.



I don't think so, the entire point of the DB is to show off what a person has in each stat so yeah it kinda is a good measure if we lack a decent amount of feats and what not. Though that's just a general look on it, I don't think its always a good argument when comparing one characters stat to another one another but that's not the case here so yeah


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## Itachі (Jan 11, 2016)

Bonly said:


> "It seems to me like *strength is the only area* that she's above average in when it comes to Taijutsu"
> 
> That seems like your saying strength is the only thing above average when it comes to her taijutsu does it not?



Yes, but she's so strong in that one area that she's not average overall.



> I don't think so, the entire point of the DB is to show off what a person has in each stat so yeah it kinda is a good measure if we lack a decent amount of feats and what not. Though that's just a general look on it, I don't think its always a good argument when comparing one characters stat to another one another but that's not the case here so yeah



I disagree, I think that Databook stats are only useful when there's something to back them up. Orochimaru has a 5 in Genjutsu, if we didn't see him getting clowned twice by Genjutsu we would consider him to have great Genjutsu resistance, no? Databook stats are alright when they can be correlated with something else, on their own they're trash imo.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

To be fair Orochimaru was about to break the Genjutsu Itachi used on him, and Sasuke's didn't actually stop him.


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## Itachі (Jan 11, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> To be fair Orochimaru was about to break the Genjutsu Itachi used on him, and Sasuke's didn't actually stop him.



Orochimaru was struggling to move and Itachi had more than enough time to cut off his hand, if that was in a battle situation, Orochimaru would have been dead.

What do you mean by that? Sasuke was able to reverse the takeover process.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

That's the effect of that particular Genjutsu, so that would be understandable.

Sasuke reversed the takeover process through sheer force of will, not Genjutsu.


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## Itachі (Jan 11, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That's the effect of that particular Genjutsu, so that would be understandable.



That's true.



> Sasuke reversed the takeover process through sheer force of will, not Genjutsu



Nah, pretty sure that Sasuke used the same technique.



It says that Sasuke was a user of the technique and his eye is shown on the page.

The eye was from the same chapter where Orochimaru attempted the takeover too.



Notice the stakes.



Unless you're saying that Sasuke used the Genjutsu but his will was what reversed the process...


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## Bringer (Jan 11, 2016)

To be fair, there is only three ways to break a Genjutsu

Kai release
Pain 
Partner method

And the fourth way requires Sharingan hax. How can Orochimaru break a genjutsu if you can't make a hand seal to use kai release? If a genjutsu stops you from moving your hands, your pretty much boned unless you hurt yourself, or if you have a way to use the partner method without actually having a partner.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2016)

Sasuke used the same Genjutsu, but had it actually stopped Orochimaru, we wouldn't have seen Orochimaru moving past those stakes in the next panel.


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## Bonly (Jan 11, 2016)

> I disagree, I think that Databook stats are only useful when there's something to back them up. Orochimaru has a 5 in Genjutsu, if we didn't see him getting clowned twice by Genjutsu we would consider him to have great Genjutsu resistance, no? Databook stats are alright when they can be correlated with something else, on their own they're trash imo.



The databook stat around genjutsu includes knowledge of genjutsu and proficiency of using genjutsu. That doesn't mean that it's solely and only based on ones ability to break out. Orochi was over 50 years old and his goal was to gain as much knowledge on jutsu as he could(and he did so) so his five could more so lean towards that rather then breaking out of genjutsu and he'd still get a 5. 

Not only that but him getting "clowned" isn't a good reason so say he wouldn't have a 5. Genjutsu works on everybody, it doesn't matter what level you so someone like Tayuya could catch someone like Hashi if he heard her genjutsu or like in canon Itachi got caught by Kurenai. Whether they break out is another story but the point is that anyone can get caught. 

So Orochi getting caught isn't bad. Not only that he was moving his body to try and use the Kai release when Itachi used genjutsu on him and Itachi used a paralyzing genjutsu which is meant to stop movement. Also Orochi started moving past the stakes when Sasuke got him with the same genjutsu so again he started moving his body when hit by a genjutsu meant to stop movement. If anything that shows that his five in genjutsu isn't off as otherwise might have been unable to move like when C got hit by Sasuke's genjutsu during the Kage summit. 

DB stats usually involve 2 or more aspects about said stat so you focusing on one part of the stat doesn't mean said character doesn't deserve that stat.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 12, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Orochimaru was struggling to move and Itachi had more than enough time to cut off his hand, if that was in a battle situation, Orochimaru would have been dead.
> 
> What do you mean by that? Sasuke was able to reverse the takeover process.



Orochimaru would eat a "lethal" attack and then spit out a new body laughing.  Which makes more sense, Leaf Itachi let the creepy guy who openly wants to crush his village and is after his body and his BAE brother's body live because reasons, or because he didn't have anything in his arsenal to put him down for good?


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## Rocky (Jan 12, 2016)

The ability to cast genjutsu has nothing to do with actually breaking it. Itachi would have snapped Kabuto's illusion without issue if that were the case. Casting genjutsu has to do with manipulating the chakra in an opponent's mind. Breaking genjutsu requires disputing the flow in your own mind. Since Kai appears to require a hand seal, the only ways to get out of binding illusions would be through outside pain or the partner method. 

Training in disrupting your own chakra flow without the use of a seal may also be possible as hand seals are only supposed to be a tool to help control chakra. If one's skilled enough, they can perform techniques without them, like Kakashi does with Raikiri. Orochimaru did not appear to have this ability, though, so it isn't something that can just be granted to all high-level guys. It's only a theoretical possibility that we'll probably never see from anyone.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 12, 2016)

All Genjutsu aren't equally easy to break either, though.

It's possible that Orochimaru was skilled enough to free himself without requiring hand-signs, and simply tried to use hand-signs against Itachi because of the level at which he could cast Genjutsu.


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## Rocky (Jan 12, 2016)

Well yes, but I was really speaking only of Itachi's genjutsu (or another of similar level), because that's all that really discussed in the BD as far as illusions go lol. I don't think Orochimaru would be fucked against some chūnin binding genjutsu, or even Kurenai's tbh.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 12, 2016)

Genjutsu breaking and casting are two different things, but to be able to do the former, you have to have some kind of an understanding of the latter.


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