# Kakashi, Gai and Obito vs. Itachi, Nagato and Minato



## Skilatry (Jul 1, 2015)

Location: Itachi/Nagato vs. Naruto/B
Distance: Same as Itachi/Nagato vs. Naruto/B
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Conditions: Alive
Restrictions: 8th Gate

Scenario: MS Kakashi, Gai, MS Obito vs. Itachi, Prime Nagato, Minato


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## Icegaze (Jul 1, 2015)

itachi NAGATO and MINATO simply win 
minato can take out either kakashi or obito, possibly both 1 after the other 

nagato can murder gai. itachi really wont have to do much

adding him ensures team minato cant loose


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

Itachi > Kakashi, Gai & MS Obito
Prime Nagato > Kakashi, Gai & MS Obito
Minato >= Ms Obito > Kakashi & Gai

Team Itachi annihilates.


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## Empathy (Jul 1, 2015)

Minato takes care of Obito and then you have Kakashi and Gai versus Itachi and Nagato, which I'd consider a mismatch in favor of the doujutsu duo.


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## Mercurial (Jul 1, 2015)

Itachi gets quickly defeated by Kakashi with Kamui GG. 7th Gate can blitz Nagato and unleash Hiru Tora on his face before he can defend himself, let alone attack. Adult Obito can definitely fend off Minato, and together with Kakashi and Gai they rape gangbang Yondaime, as strong as he is he isn't taking on three people on his general level.

Gai can also defeat either Itachi or Minato, Itachi can't defend from his speed that will run circles around Susanoo and let him easily smash him with Hiru Tora, Minato's reflexes and combat speed are definitely on a lower level than Gai's (just compare both performance against Juudara: Minato was counterblitzed before he could complete his attack, hit two times without being able to react and basically completely negged, Gai could push back and pressure Juudara and finish to launch his attack, he was just ovepowered and I think that's not shameful against a Juubi jinchuuriki) and he can't avoid Hiru Tora with Hiraishin due to his AoE. 

Kakashi can also defeat Nagato with Kamui GG, as powerful as he is Nagato can't do nothing, by feats he is not even reacting to Kakashi's quick execution of his dojutsu. Kakashi also can have a great fight with Minato (Icegaze if you remember we discussed and agreed on that, whoever would win, you say Minato I say Kakashi, it would be an close battle).

Obito can defeat Itachi or Nagato with relative ease.


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## Icegaze (Jul 1, 2015)

gai in 7th gate cant hope  in his wildest dreams defeating minato

minato can surely beat kakashi and gai while obito for some odd reason people think it would go differently despite the guy only having 1 trick that's a treat to minato 

minato can beat any of the 3 and still have fight left in him 

team itachi is horribly the stronger team here. Gai beating minato is fan fic outside of 8th gate

he will get the A treatment if he engages in cqc 

we also forgetting CST off the bat. I wonder why

@raikiri yes I remember great debate on the minato vs kakahi. however why I say minato wins if u remember Is he is going to spend a lot less chakra attacking and defending. kakashi cant defeat minato and still remain relevant in this fight

though I would say the best person to face obito will be minato and the best to face kakashi will be itachi. while gai basically gets hard countered by nagato 

hirudora is horribly trolled by ST btw and I mean horribly. it wont even have an effect. if deva ST can neg diff FRS, hiru dora will be massively irrelevant against nagato

I would go to say if not for kakashi kamui being a nuisance to nagato. nagato can defeat gai and kakashi by himself


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

^^


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## Hachibi (Jul 1, 2015)

Bar DMS Kakashi, no version of Kakashi (not even War Arc), use Kamui as a opening move. _especially_ IC


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## Icegaze (Jul 1, 2015)

With manga knowledge kakashi will have zero issues starting off with kamui and he will need to
short of that he isn't relevant in this battle. so he will opt for what keeps him in the game. would be like saying itachi doesn't off the bat go with MS jutsu. he wont be relevant either if he don't opt for that

same as gai going gates off the bat


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## Kai (Jul 1, 2015)

Itachi, Nagato, and Minato are collectively on a different level than those three, and they possess a number of viable counters for Kamui and 7th Gate taijutsu, with Hiraishin, Rinnegan techniques, and Susanoo in tow.

Kakashi, Gai, and Obito are outclassed pretty hard.


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## Icegaze (Jul 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> Itachi, Nagato, and Minato are collectively on a different level than those three, and they possess a number of viable counters for Kamui and 7th Gate taijutsu, with Hiraishin, Rinnegan techniques, and Susanoo in tow.
> 
> Kakashi, Gai, and Obito are outclassed pretty hard.



I agree 
cant believe people mention hiru tora being an issue for nagato he neg diffs that jutsu with minimal difficulty 

the only issue for nagato here is kakashi kamui. however if minato is keeping kakakshi busy then nagato can collectively take gai and obito 

frankly itachi is not needed


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> Itachi, Nagato, and Minato are collectively on a different level than those three, and they possess a number of viable counters for Kamui and 7th Gate taijutsu, with Hiraishin, Rinnegan techniques, and Susanoo in tow.
> 
> Kakashi, Gai, and Obito are outclassed pretty hard.


I have to agree with this.

Minato openly displayed the ability to counter, and outright out-speed both Kamui variations- it simply is worthless against him. 

Adding Nagato in solidifies it for me. These are two ninja at the top of the High Kage tier, MS Obito is the only one who makes it into the bottom of the High-Kage class (with Izanagi) and Minato already displayed his moveset as a complete counter to all Kamui variations. 

Adding Itachi in is overkill, Amaterasu & Susano just makes it easier for Minato & Nagato to wipe them out.


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## ARGUS (Jul 1, 2015)

Team 2 wins this mid diff at  most 

 -- Once minato places a mark on his team mates, then kamui becomes as good as garbage, as everytime they focus on either of the  3, minato can simply teleport them to an assigned marking, not only that but either  of the kamui users are garbgae in front of him, with the vast difference in reactions and the fact that FTG and KB  are a canon hard counter to their jutsus, , obito gets finished ooff quickly before he makes any difference at al

 -- Nagatos using his summon army such as chameleon to hide away, ensures that he finishes off the other 2 with a powerful pinpointed ST that breaks every bone in their bodies, guys gates are good and all but he isnt finding nagato nor is he evading attacks that he cant eve see, he cant take on all 3 of them, nor can he breach itachis V4 susanoo, where kakashi is as goood as garbage here, hell even FCD can one shot him, 
his kamui is only putting a greater strain on him, and with itachis array of quick one shots, he is done for,


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## Matty (Jul 1, 2015)

Lol team 2... All team 1 has is Obito and he's of no use when it's 3v1. Kakashi is essentially fucked if his Kamui is innaccurate and I imagine it would be against those three beasts


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## ShadoLord (Jul 2, 2015)

Team 2 wins, Minato>Kakashi, Nagato>Gai(7th gate max), Obito>Itachi. Minato>Obito.


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## thechickensage (Jul 2, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Itachi gets quickly defeated by Kakashi with Kamui GG.



Are you trolling?  You NORMALLY get carried away with Kamui GG (_cause it's not an actually thing in the naruto series_), but....sigh....really?  ....vs ....itachi?  

THIS is correct:


Hachibi said:


> Bar DMS Kakashi, no version of Kakashi (not even War Arc), use Kamui as a opening move. _especially_ IC


And Kakashi IC doesn't even use Kamui offensively because he knows it's not that good.  Raikiri19's obsession with Kakashi's Kamui GG is so exaggerated he/she can't even predict the flow of battles anymore

Itachi rivals Kakashi for speed and versatility.  Kakashi won't land a kamui on anyone this whole match.

Kamui wouldnt work vs anyone on either side of this fight.

(kamui gg isn't a thing)
(it doesn't exist)
(the list of those even slightly injured by kamui is...1 shinobi long?)
(*the list of shinobi killed by kamui GG is 0 shinobi long*)
(kamui gg is an invalid argument NORMALLY, but vs these extremely fast shinobi, kamui means absolutely nothing)

Give Kakashi DMS + sage chakra and he can finally Kamui GG people probably, but until then, it's 95% a support jutsu.  The other 5% is failed attempts or attempts at kamui-ing the juubi.


Kamui GG would work on...the rookies.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 2, 2015)

Kamui can kill Itachi, but with Minato & Nagato around he'll need to use it for defensive purposes. 

Maybe he gets Itachi at start battle- but then he's blown away by CST or blitzed by Minato in the process. 

I have to agree that in this simulation he's more likely to not use it immediately- because he knows that he would be killed directly afterward.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2015)

If you think Kakashi can kill Itachi with Kamui, then by the same token, you should believe that Itachi can kill Kakashi with Amaterasu.


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## Ersa (Jul 2, 2015)

Minato will edge out Obito after a close fight leaving the Masters to fight Nagato and Itachi. Kakashi will give sickly Itachi a hell of a fight but Gai and Nagato is a disgusting mismatch in favour of the latter. Once he squashes Gai like a bug, Nagato sends Kakashi to the moon.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

amaterasu cant kill kakashi. he simply kamui's away to box land and leaves the amaterasu behind 
however susanoo can kill kakashi. but amaterasu is just a mere mid level jutsu against kakashi


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 2, 2015)

Of course kakashi can kill itachi with kamui. Amaterasu cant kill kakashi. Hed just warp the flames off of his body. Not to mention kakashis kamui is executed much faster than amaterasu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Of course kakashi can kill itachi with kamui. *Amaterasu cant kill kakashi. Hed just warp the flames off of his body*. Not to mention kakashis *kamui is executed much faster than amaterasu*.



Bold is fanfiction.


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## Raiken (Jul 2, 2015)

Prime Nagato lost to KCM Naruto, MS Itachi and BM Killer B as quickly as he did because his movement was nerfed and couldn't dodge Totsuka Blade.
Is his movement still nerfed?


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## Mercurial (Jul 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If you think Kakashi can kill Itachi with Kamui, then by the same token, you should believe that Itachi can kill Kakashi with Amaterasu.



Not at all, because Kakashi executes long range Kamui a lot faster than Itachi does with Amaterasu. Kakashi could warp the Amaterasu flames or just warp Itachi's head attacking him with Kamui before he manages to use Amaterasu. Kakashi also knows Amaterasu ("those black flames... so that's Amaterasu" (*1*)) while Itachi doesn't know shit about Kamui (he only knows that someway Kakashi developed a Mangekyo). Kamui also works faster than Amaterasu to begin with in any case, since it isn't preceded by the eye crying blood like Amaterasu always is, and since the space-time barrier directly appears on the objective (), while the black flames travel towards it, albeit quickly () (this is clearly showed when Sasuke partially dodged Itachi's Amaterasu with the flames following him behind and especially when Ei dodged Sasuke's Amaterasu and the flames travelled past his previous location hitting the samurai that was behind Ei himself (*4*), showing as they didn't appear on him but travelled towards him). The funniest thing is that if you are hit with Kamui, you lose, because your body gets imprisoned in the other dimension that only Kamui users can enter or leave, or a vital part of your body gets warped away and you die because of the wound; if you are hit with Amaterasu, you still can save youself by removing the flames, sealing them, remove the wounded part and regenerate and so on.

Kakashi has the faster jutsu, uses it faster and has faster reactions (could time his Kamui warp fast enough that Obito wasn't able to notice (*5*), could react to a sudden threat on par with Minato (*6*)(*7*), reacts to a sudden attack from a Juubi jinchuriki activating and using Kamui (*8*) when for example Gaara's automatic sand defense couldn't even activate in time to stop Minato's body hitting poor Gaara *).

* Probably that's where the in-famous "Gaara dies in the crossfire" is born 

We're in 2015 (past half the year, actually) and you are the only person that still believes that Amaterasu can be a threat to MS Kakashi, even Hussain stopped to believe that Jiraiya is on par with Itachi. Oh well, he didn't, but that's Hussain.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Bold is fanfiction.



Bold is canon, sadly.

With a non perfected Kamui, as at the time he couldn't perfectly control the size and the position of the space-time barrier for his own admission (*9*), Kakashi could have an Akatsuki like Deidara as his bitch (*10*)(*11*), warp away Deidara's fast and giant explosion in a second (*12*) and then was sure he could have defeated another one like Kakuzu (he said that if Naruto and the others didn't come, he would have used Mangekyo to defend from Kakuzu's attack and defeat him, then having to go to the hospital for some rest because of all the chakra spent (*13*)). He didn't use Kamui previously against Hidan and Kakuzu or later against Pain because he didn't need that, he was in control of the battle and fending off or cornering the enemy, so no need to ruin his eyesight by using the Mangekyo. Some time after, Kakashi was even willing to fight Tobi, believed as the legendary Madara Uchiha, with Kamui. 

Amaterasu vs Kamui (actually only long range Kamui... so only a part of full Kamui's power lol) well... part 1 Sakura vs 3 eyed Juudara would be a better match up. Kamui is faster. More useful. More haxxed. Nearly uncounterable while the other has been countered in so many ways I forgot, and there are a lot of more other possible counters. Everything Amaterasu can do: Kamui can warp. That should be enough (as I said don't forget that we are talking only about long range Kamui vs Amaterasu; there's phasing Kamui, teleporting Kamui etc so... Kamui as a whole is like thousand times more powerful than Amaterasu; just compare the performance of Dual Mangekyo Sharingan Rikudo Kakashi with all the Kamui powers and Rinnegan Rikudo Sasuke with Amaterasu and Enton powers against Kaguya... Kakashi outperformed his old discipule so much it isn't even funny):

MS Kakashi's Kamui by Madara (chapter 659)



EMS Sasuke's Amaterasu by Madara (chapter 657)
​
Some mastered Kamui execution feats (as the 4th databook confirms that Kakashi mastered Kamui by the time of the 4th World War; hence he gained even the ability to teleport himself *()*):

- Kakashi can canonically warp a human body part (an head sized object) in the same time Obito needs to make it intangible and of a movement of 5 cm from KCM Naruto rushing to attack Obito *(15)**(16)*
- Kakashi warps away two Susanoo arrows when both are already at half their way and his Sharingan was still the 3T one *(17)**(18)*
- Kakashi warps away Minato's Rasengan countered by Juudara really in no time *(19)*, Minato's arm kicked from Madara was hella fast if we think that Minato's body (obviously heavier and so less fast of the arm) went on Gaara so fast that his auto-defense couldn't activate in time *(20)*; it also was a completely surprise attack that suddenly come out from Gaara's sand wall that blocked Kakashi's LoS *(21)*.
- Kakashi warps away a giant arm of the Gedo Mazo while Madara is already summoning it away with instant space-time summoning jutsu *(22)* (Minato couldn't do anything in that situation than ask Kakashi taking care of it, Minato of all people couldn't even perceived what happened when Kakashi used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo, and had to ask him if he managed to kill it in time). Madara praised the feat and Kakashi's worthy as a doujutsu user.
- Kakashi feints to warp Naruto's Rasengan and then insta-warps away his body before Obito's Kamui propelled stakes could hit him even with a point blank shot (before Kamui shooted stake that was hitting BM Naruto could move for more than a couple of cm), managing to make Obito think that Kakashi missed and he succesfully hit the clone *(23)**(24)**(25)* when actually Kakashi changed his warp from Naruto's Rasengan to his entire body, warping it with such speed and timing that Obito (with full knowledge *(26)* and top tier reactions boosted by Mangekyo and Rinnegan eyes) couldn't notice or perceive it. That was when Kakashi was moving fast *(27)**(28)* and wasn't that close to the objective *(29)*.
- Kakashi with a Kurama chakra supply (that was said to have increased 3x the power of his jutsu) could warp the Hachibi in the Kamui dimension and then re-warp it in the real world, and then finished all the chakra *(30)**(31)**(32)*. Taking on account that Kakashi used also some chakra right before to travel between the Kamui world and the real world, I'd say it is pretty much clear that without any chakra supply he can warp a mass that is slightly bigger than 1/3 of the Hachibi (so also Kamui GG his head or any Bijuu's head with relative ease, with the fast execution shown against the Gedo Mazo... or things like a V4 Susanoo from Itachi).

So Kakashi can Kamui away human head sized objects in a more or less instant time and even with fast moving objects/people and unpredictable situations. And he can Kamui away human body sized objects in also nearly istant times, and even giant objects, faster than people like Rinnegan + MS Obito or Edo Minato can perceive. Thanks to the Kurama's chakra supply from Naruto, Kakashi's long range Kamui was depicted as a dangerous threat for even the Juubi. Just read what is said from databook about Kakashi's Kamui *()* (and that was when it wasn't perfected yet... it was also stated in the 3rd databook that Shippuden Kakashi was still growing in power and has to completely master his Mangekyo Sharingan *()* which is what he reached in the time of War Arc as stated by Obito and by the 4th databook) *()**()* and what Kakashi says after having faced the Rinnegan (knowing all its powers as he created counters to them together with Gai *(37)**(38)*) and being against one believed to be Uchiha Madara and not only that but also wielding the Rinnegan:he doesn't even consider that the Rinnegan wielder he is fighting could have used Preta Path to absorb Kamui or Shinra Tensei to repel it, even knowing very well those powers, he states that it was impossible that Kamui could be stopped *()*. Kakashi's Kamui warped away even Juubi's jinchuriki Madara's Onmyoton Release that nullifies all not senjutsu and not Rikudo enhanced ninjutsu *(40)**(41)*. Not even going with DMS Rikudo Kakashi that can use Kamui so fast that it outspeeds Kaguya's S/T *()**()* that blitzed Rinnegan Rikudo Sasuke *(44)**(45)* and nearly blitzed Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto, both able to casually react to Juubi Madara's Rinbo, but even if that's a wonderful feat it's not that version of Kakashi in the thread. Kamui allows War Arc 1 MS Kakashi to defend from almost all attacks (thanks to his fast reflexes and mastery of the space-time barrier, and also increased chakra capabilities) and especially to have an uncounterable offensive: Kamui GG > your favourite character, by feats, and even by hype and portrayal, anyway.

Out of the long range Kamui usage, Kakashi also showed that he can warp off from the Kamui dimension the things that he warps in, shooting them out as Obito does *(46)**(47)*, so he can for example warp away a Bijuu Dama or a Jinton, and then re-warp quickly it and surprise the opponent with his own attack. Kakashi can also warp himself with the ability of teleport anywhere he wants, gaining a really useful ability for surprise attacks and for support purposes *()**(49)**(50)*; for example, he can go to the other dimension, focus his chakra, and then use a giant-size Kamui with ease. Or simply have rest and then perform surprise attacks on his opponent.

On the other note. Fucking Edo fucking Itachi's casting of Amaterasu is slower than Killer Bee fucking throwing a fucking sword (*51*) that is something dodged with ease by fucking Fuu in base without Bijuu chakra (she had Rinnegan amped field of vision and Sharingan precognition but the attack was from the back so she could only see it with Rinnegan but not preempt it with Sharingan (*52*)); and that's after Itachi already prepped Amaterasu and had his eye cry blood. Nagato could sense Itachi charging Amaterasu (no one in the manga sensed Kakashi using long range Kamui... Pain with the Rinnegan could see chakra, he didn't see Kakashi activating Mangekyo, hence charging chakra in his eye, and using Kamui; because Kakashi's execution is too sudden and fast, after he mastered the jutsu he doesn't need to charge anything; Minato and Rinnegan Obito couldn't perceive Kakashi's fastest usage of the long range Kamui) and before it was launched, even after the eye already cried blood, Bee could launch a sword that would have reached Itachi before the Amaterasu flames even started. 

As showed, base Killer B can react and throw a sword before Itachi can complete an already started Amaterasu. Hachibi reacted to Amaterasu and physically moved before the flames reached him (*53*)(*54*), and the Hachibi is not like a speedster, lol. Hebi Sasuke reacted to Amaterasu and outspeeded it for some time (*56*)(*57*)(*58*). Full speed Ei reacted to Amaterasu and dodged it with ease and it's not like Amaterasu seemed that fast (*59*)(*60*). Basically everyone and their mother who aren't fodder can react to Amaterasu, most can counter it. Kishimoto made clear which is the best jutsu, when he made Amaterasu countered or shitted on by everyone he had it used on, when he didn't even let Kakashi use Kamui because otherwise it would have been too much an easy win, and instead hyped the jutsu and his skillful usage everytime with great feats and statement. Not to mention that as said long range Kamui is only a power from the many granted from complete Kamui.

Well I don't think I need to say anything else. Feats show clearly how Kamui shits so much on Amaterasu that Itachi trolling Orochimaru is nothing in comparison.


​


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## Skywalker (Jul 2, 2015)

So basically a Itachi and Nagato team that can teleport? Yeah gg team 1, they're getting raped without lube here.


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## thechickensage (Jul 2, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> [Stuff ...]
> 
> So Kakashi can Kamui away human head sized objects in a more or less instant time and even with fast moving objects/people and unpredictable situations. And he can Kamui away human body sized objects in also nearly istant times, and even giant objects. Thanks to the Kurama's chakra supply from Naruto, Kakashi's Kamui was depicted as a dangerous threat for even the Juubi.



You have many facts.  So my questions to you:

Why didn't he Kamui GG Deidara?  He actually tried, but failed.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Sasori?  He had the time, according to you (yk, since it's so instant).  Instead he left his 16 year old student and a 70 year old grandma to fight a poison-using member of the Akatsuki.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Kakuzu?  He was about to be killed when Team Yamato showed up.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Hidan?  I would like to see Hidan come back from a swiss-cheese state.  
Why didn't he Kamui GG Asura Path?
Why didn't he Kamui GG Deva Path?  *He let himself die vs Deva rather than Kamui GG him.*
Why didn't he Kamui GG the seven swordsmen?
Why didn't he Kamui GG Tobi?  When he was just the masked man.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Obito? * If he can kamui something centimeters in front of Obito's face without Obito realizing it?*
Why didn't he Kamui GG Juubito?
Why didn't he Kamui GG the Juubi?  In all of its various stages?
Why didn't he Kamui GG Madara?
Why didn't he Kamui GG Juubidara?
Why didn't he Kamui GG Kaguya? She was the greatest threat to the naruto universe, he didn't even attempt it. If Kamui is faster than her S/T jutsu and her reaction speed, it should be not only doable but the best strategy, right?  

Why do you start off every Kakashi thread with him doing something he's never done, and something he's only attempted once on a shinobi (vs Deidara, and he failed), something that he died rather than attempt (vs Deva)?

This is why your Kamui GG idea is "backed by facts" yet remains fan fiction.   And it's the most out of character thing for him to do.  I said in another thread it's like saying Minato immediately jumps into Sage Mode...even though he has the ability to use it, he *simply doesn't use it in combat except for support*.  It's not IC at all.

I would have some support for you and Kakashi and Kamui GG *if he'd ever done it, even once*


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## Mercurial (Jul 2, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> You have many facts.  So my questions to you:
> 
> Why didn't he Kamui GG Deidara?  He actually tried, but failed.
> Why didn't he Kamui GG Kakuzu?  He was about to be killed when Team Yamato showed up.
> ...



Why didn't he Kamui GG Deidara?  He actually tried, but didn't have mastered the jutsu yet, he still had Deidara as his bitch, wounded and talking that Naruto, the jinchuuriki, wasn't the problem but Kakashi was.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Kakuzu?  He was about to be killed when Team Yamato showed up, and he literally said that he would have used Kamui if Naruto and the others didn't arrive.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Hidan?  Because Hidan was plot reserved for Shikamaru to kill. He was already casually handling him with a kunai while babysitting team 10 and dodging Kakuzu's ninjutsu.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Asura Path? Because he didn't need since he was going to kill him without it. Also plot.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Deva Path?  Because he didn't need since he was going to kill him without it. Also plot.
Why didn't he Kamui GG the seven swordsmen? Because he didn't need that.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Obito? Because after seeing Obito nullifying the Kamui that would have killed Gedo Mazo by warping his head away, it was clear that attempting Kamui on Obito would have been useless. Kakashi instantly thought to use Kamui on Obito, when he was believed to be Madara, before the War Arc.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Juubito? Because he was, you know, not included in the fight. He literally wasn't there.
Why didn't he Kamui GG the Juubi?  He was doing that, and it was implied he could. Sadly Obito foresaw that and was ready to stop him before he started.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Madara? He never fought him, you know, when he was dashing against him after Naruto already went to him, Zetsu appeared and possessed Obito, and Kakashi didn't move anymore.
Why didn't he Kamui GG Juubidara? He could have, he warped away his Gudodama wall. Alone he couldn't, with the help of the others, like Gai and Minato, he could have, but plot.
*Why didn't he Kamui GG Kaguya?* If Kamui is faster than her S/T jutsu and her reaction speed, it should be not only doable but the best strategy, right? Definitely. It's not like I'm saying that because I like that, I'm just reporting manga facts that Kishimoto draw. Probably it wasn't good for plot, but since Kishimoto had Kakashi completely lead the battle countering and wounding Kaguya, opening the road for the otherwise helpless Naruto and Sasuke.

He also didn't need to Kamui GG when he could to this:



Why did Obito not kidnap kid Naruto, put him in genjutsu and have him ready to take out the Kyuubi to have a full powered Juubi, or why did Obito not kidnap Naruto on a casual night with Kamui teleporting when he was asleep and helpless, and instead declared war to the entire ninja world to then try to defeat him and estract the Kyuubi to recreate the Juubi? 

Tell me.

Because plot.

Kishimoto has to run a fucking plot. He can't have fights end with a single action.


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## thechickensage (Jul 2, 2015)

We'll never agree about the infinite powers of Kamui GG.

But do you agree that it is out of character to just open Kamui GG all the time?  You might want to call it Out-Of-Plot, but it's OOC for Kakashi.


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## Mercurial (Jul 2, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> We'll never agree about the infinite powers of Kamui GG.
> 
> But do you agree that it is out of character to just open Kamui GG all the time?  You might want to call it Out-Of-Plot, but it's OOC for Kakashi.



Blame Kishimoto if you don't like that, not me.

If he feels he need to do that, he will do that. If he feels he doesn't need to do that, he won't do that. Against Itachi, Minato and Nagato, all more than willing to open respectively with Mangekyo, Hiraishin and Rinnegan? Yeah he will feel he needs to do that and do that. And Minato could save himself or could not save himself (he didn't even perceive Kakashi using Kamui on the Gedo Mazo and was nearly warped by Obito's CQC Kamui who is slower and less unpredictable than Kakashi's long range version of the jutsu), while Itachi and Nagato are doomed.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

minato did react to goudama and used hirashin twice. for kamui to avoid it. kakashi and obito had to combine their kamui to double its speed. 

minato would never have an issue with kakashi kamui. or if we want to claim he would. kakashi would never be able to follow minato movement. so moot point


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## Kai (Jul 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> minato did react to goudama and used hirashin twice. for kamui to avoid it. kakashi and obito had to combine their kamui to double its speed.
> 
> minato would never have an issue with kakashi kamui. or if we want to claim he would. kakashi would never be able to follow minato movement. so moot point


Fair points, however absorbing one's self with Kamui takes longer as brought up by Konan.


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## Icegaze (Jul 2, 2015)

Kai said:


> Fair points, however absorbing one's self with Kamui takes longer as brought up by Konan.



true but lets not forget kakashi also used kamui on obito while obito was using kamui on himself 

thats what allowed obito to pull off 1 kamui. while minato could use hirashin twice against the same jutsu 

gai, kakashi and obito simply as far as speed is concerned will fall behind when tryign to hit minato 

all minato will ever need to do to avoid their attacks is drop a kunai and they wont be able to track where he appeared 

1 on 1 he beats any and all of them while putting alot less effort than they would. 

itachi is the weakest link here, either him or gai really

with obito support kakashi kamui speed can double. so itachi gets caught quickly. obito comes from beneath itachi as kakashi doubles the speed of the jutsu 
while gai and minato are already engaged. 

nagato feels left out and pull gai towards him with BT and rods him

the rest of the match is pretty much kakashi+obito vs minato+nagato


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Not at all, because Kakashi executes long range Kamui a lot faster than Itachi does with Amaterasu, Kakashi could warp the Amaterasu flames or just warp Itachi's head before he manages to use Amaterasu. Kakashi also knows Amaterasu ("those black flames... so that's Amaterasu") while Itachi doesn't know shit about Kamui (he only knows that Kakashi developed a Mangekyo). Kamui also works faster than Amaterasu to begin with in any case, since it isn't preceded by the eye crying blood. Kakashi has the faster jutsu, uses it faster and has faster reactions (could time his Kamui warp fast enough that Obito wasn't able to notice (1), could react to a sudden threat on par with Minato (2)(3), reacts to a sudden attack from a Juubi jinchuriki activating and using Kamui (4) where for example Gaara's automatic sand defense couldn't even activate in time to stop Minato's body hitting poor Gaara *).
> 
> * Probably that's where the in-famous "Gaara dies in the crossfire" is born
> 
> ...



You just added more fanfiction on top of fanfiction. 
We should talk when Kakashi uses Kamui offensively on a shinobi and manages to do something.
And oh, he isn't warping the flames off his flesh without warping the flesh itself.


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## Bonly (Jul 2, 2015)

Team Itachi got this in the bag. Obito is the main threat on team one but Minato got him on lock so Nagato and Itachi handle the masters and if they don't take them out before Minato gets done then they go around with some teleporting Rinnegan jutsu and what not to make things easier.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

Obito and Gai can go toe to toe with any of them, the best this version of Kakashi can do is hold his own against Itachi for some time, but he'd lose against Nagato or Minato.

Does Minato have the Kyuubi in this scenario? If so, then this is a curb.


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## Skilatry (Jul 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Does Minato have the Kyuubi in this scenario? If so, then this is a curb.



No he doesn't, as the OP says everyone is alive.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

Then it depends on who gets what, but odds are still in favor of Team 2, because Kakashi can be beat by 2 of the 3 easily while the other 2 can fight anyone else.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 2, 2015)

With Nagato and Itachi on one team then the addition of an adept teleporter the opposition gets crushed and then swept away.
Nagato himself is stronger than everyone on the opposition excluding 8 Gates. So he's good for anyone one of them. Itachi goes for Kakshi then Minato for Obito.


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## InfusionZ (Jul 3, 2015)

Obito and Kakashi take them all to Kamui dimension and GG, even if Minato uses Hiraishin to dodge kamui he still can't take them on 1v3


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You just added more fanfiction on top of fanfiction.
> We should talk when Kakashi uses Kamui offensively on a shinobi and manages to do something.
> *And oh, he isn't warping the flames off his flesh without warping the flesh itself.*



Speaking of fanfiction. 

Amaterasu is useless. It hasn't done a single thing of note in this manga. Kamui is a more powerful technique even if it's only used defensively. It's just better... I don't know what manga you read to even consider the two abilities to be on a remotely similar level.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 3, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Speaking of fanfiction.
> 
> Amaterasu is useless. It hasn't done a single thing of note in this manga. Kamui is a more powerful technique even if it's only used defensively. It's just better... I don't know what manga you read to even consider the two abilities to be on a remotely similar level.


How can you remove flame off your flesh without extinguishing it(not possible in Amaterasu's case) ? 

I never said they are the same level btw.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 3, 2015)

Kakashi warped SM Rasengan after it already begun to deal damage. Warping Amaterasu might be possible.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 3, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kakashi warped SM Rasengan after it already begun to deal damage. Warping Amaterasu might be possible.



Rasengan isn't damage over time.
It isn't something that sticks to you flesh.

edit : 

bellyflop
bellyflop
Replace rasengan with Amaterasu. What would happen ?


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## Alex Payne (Jul 3, 2015)

Rasengan was in contact with Kakashi's flesh. Kakashi warped it away without damaging his body further(or at least it looked that way). The point is that Kakashi was able to warp away something that was in direct contact with his body - Minato's hand with Rasengan sent Kakashi flying - that's as direct as you can get. Your example with Naruto isn't related to this - Naruto was hit and thus Rasengan had disappeared. It is completely different.


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## Mercurial (Jul 3, 2015)

Talking about Kakashi being able to warp Amaterasu flames from his body or not is simply useless, when Kakashi won't be ever hit by Amaterasu in first place, as long range Kamui is a faster jutsu than Amaterasu and Kakashi has displayed far better speed and timing with his MS jutsu than Itachi did with his own.


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## Icegaze (Jul 3, 2015)

@raikiri19 please entertain them when they claim such. its funny as hell though 

even if it hit kakashi. he can kamui himself completely and troll the technique so its never going to be an issue for him


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## Raiken (Jul 3, 2015)

Thing is, both teams have two Medium level players, and 1 high level player.

The MVP of each team:
MS Obito and Prime Nagato

Then we have:
Gated Gai / MS Kakashi and Base Minato / MS Itachi

Nagato is stronger than MS Obito overall.
And the Golden Boys are stronger than the Masters.

I just can't see Obito's team winning, every way I visualise it, it goes to Nagato's team.
Obito could help drag it out, but in the end.....


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## Sans (Jul 3, 2015)

This thread is tailor made to destroy the Battledome.

None shall survive this meeting of fandoms. The Manga Gods will feed on the sacrifices this thread offers up.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 3, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Rasengan was in contact with Kakashi's flesh. Kakashi warped it away without damaging his body further(or at least it looked that way). The point is that Kakashi was able to warp away something that was in direct contact with his body - Minato's hand with Rasengan sent Kakashi flying - that's as direct as you can get. Your example with Naruto isn't related to this - Naruto was hit and thus Rasengan had disappeared. It is completely different.



Amaterasu touches you and it becomes a part of you. Seperating it from your flesh isn't the same as seperating a rasengan.

The only way I can see Kakashi warping the flames is if Amaterasu starts out really small(presumably on a non lethal area) and Kakashi warps it before it starts eating away his flesh.
I'd say Kakashi'd be able to warp low end Amaterasu feats and would be helpless against higher end ones.

And that is assuming he doesn't flinch from the initial pain or the heat, which seems not possible.



Raikiri19 said:


> Talking about Kakashi being able to warp Amaterasu flames from his body or not is simply useless, when Kakashi won't be ever hit by Amaterasu in first place, as long range Kamui is a faster jutsu than Amaterasu and Kakashi has displayed far better speed and timing with his MS jutsu than Itachi did with his own.



For the 32483th time, Kakashi never used Kamui offensively. Kamui was mainly used for utility and defensive purposes in Kakashi's case.

You'r basically taking Amaterasu's low end feats and comparing it to Kamui's non offensive feats.
High end Amaterasu feats are on par with Kamui, in purely offensive terms of course.


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## Mercurial (Jul 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> For the 32483th time, Kakashi never used Kamui offensively. Kamui was mainly used for utility and defensive purposes in Kakashi's case.
> 
> You'r basically taking Amaterasu's low end feats and comparing it to Kamui's non offensive feats.
> High end Amaterasu feats are on par with Kamui, in purely offensive terms of course.



Sadly he did.

Sadly Amaterasu's feats are only low end, at least compared on top notch jutsu and their users.

Amaterasu is at best on par with Kakashi's Shippuden beginning-non mastered Kamui, and that's being really really generous. 

Anyway I won't bother, if you want to remain the only person that in 2015 still thinks that Amaterasu will be a factor against high level people (and even worse, people like Kakashi with War Arc-mastered Kamui) feel free do to that. Madara Uchiha,  and , will disagree with you, together with all canon drawings from Masashi Kishimoto where Kakashi's performances with left eye Kamui completely shits on Amaterasu's performance either by Itachi or Sasuke by .


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## Icegaze (Jul 3, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Sadly he did.
> 
> Sadly Amaterasu's feats are only low end, at least compared on top notch jutsu and their users.
> 
> ...



actually deidara compared beginning of shippuden kamui to amaterasu directly 
so you are right 
do show grim the panel, let me laugh


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## Mercurial (Jul 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> actually deidara compared beginning of shippuden kamui to amaterasu directly
> so you are right
> do show grim the panel, let me laugh


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## Icegaze (Jul 3, 2015)

thanks buddy 
cant believe the most useless jutus in this match up is what is being discussed. Literally everyone mentioned possibly including gai could troll the jutsu


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 3, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Sadly he did.
> 
> Sadly Amaterasu's feats are only low end, at least compared on top notch jutsu and their users.
> 
> ...



Deidara physically dodged beginning of part 2 Kamui. It was utter and pure shit. Wouldn't even compare to low end Amaterasu feats.


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## StickaStick (Jul 3, 2015)

If a member of Team I is going to be restricted from using their best technique (Gai and his 8th-Gate) I don't think it would be unreasonable to restrict, say, Nagato from using Deva Path or maybe Minato from using FTG. Just saying. 

With how it stands though Team II has three of the top four players in this match and thus Team I is badly outclassed here. Team II takes it with mid difficulty.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 3, 2015)

If you unrestrict 8th Gate, Gai kills all of them, including his team mates. 

Its just creates a massive power gap. I think the OP wanted this to be challenging.


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## StickaStick (Jul 3, 2015)

I don't think that Gai hitting the 8th-Gate would necessarily mean the end of Team II. Minato could tag Itachi and Nagato, spread his kunai around thoroughly all before Gai powers up fully and then just move his team around when Gai comes at them since as we saw in canon Minato's teleportation speed still outclasses what Gai in the 8th-Gate is capable of. And just curious but why would Gai's teammates need to die as well?

But anyway, if his intention was to make this challenging he still missed the mark. Restricting Deva's powers or something would have made this more interesting but as it stands Team I doesn't really have a chance.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 3, 2015)

Nagato is shit without Deva's power though.


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## StickaStick (Jul 3, 2015)

I'm just saying restrict something if the TC wants a better match-up because as it stands the teams are unbalanced.


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## Icegaze (Jul 3, 2015)

nagato is shit compared to 7th gate gai with no deva powers that much is clear 
actually nah he is just shit simply put without deva powers


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## Harbour (Jul 3, 2015)

Both Gai and Minato has guarantee one shot jutsus. You can't say that "Gai has 8th gates, he wins". Minato has SF and thats really unavoidable attack, and probably can be used faster than opening of all 8 gates. Also can be used with clones to defeat multiple opponents.
Overall second team more skilled and has better arsenal. In fact each of the second team has a chances to solo the whole first team.
Second team easily win. There is just a huge gap between opponents.

Technically its Yata Shield+three Minato clones+Shiki Fuujin combo. Its unavoidable attack.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Deidara physically dodged beginning of part 2 Kamui. It was utter and pure shit. Wouldn't even compare to low end Amaterasu feats.


Kakashi did hit him, if it had been an Amaterasu (instead of Kamui), Deidara would have had to de-cloak right away so as to not burning through. Because it was a Kamui, it feels like nothing happened.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> actually deidara compared beginning of shippuden kamui to amaterasu directly
> so you are right
> do show grim the panel, let me laugh



 No he didn't.

 He claimed that his dojutsu was on a similar level compared to Itachi's because they both had the Mangekyo.

 Kakashi's Dojutsu certainly did surpass Itachi's Dojutsu in offensive capabilities further into the manga.


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## Mercurial (Jul 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Deidara physically dodged beginning of part 2 Kamui. It was utter and pure shit. Wouldn't even compare to low end Amaterasu feats.



Not at all, lol. Deidara was at Kakashi's mercy, he even admitted it, he was amazed by Kakashi's dojutsu. He was just lucky that Kakashi didn't have mastered the jutsu at that time, hence the first time he was warping Deidara's head but at the last moment mistakingly moved his aim and warped the right arm instead (Deidara was completely helpless, for his own admission) and the second time he lost focus. That was also plot on Deidara's side, as just a couple of minutes after that Kakashi could quickly activate the Mangekyo and quickly and perfectly warp a giant (forest sized) explosion.



Harbour said:


> Both Gai and Minato has guarantee one shot jutsus. You can't say that "Gai has 8th gates, he wins". Minato has SF and thats really unavoidable attack, and probably can be used faster than opening of all 8 gates. Also can be used with clones to defeat multiple opponents.
> Overall second team more skilled and has better arsenal. In fact each of the second team has a chances to solo the whole first team.
> Second team easily win. There is just a huge gap between opponents.
> 
> Technically its Yata Shield+three Minato clones+Shiki Fuujin combo. Its unavoidable attack.



What? Kakashi and Obito casually teleports in the other dimension, bringing Gai with them, and poor Minato dies nonsensically.

Not even in the best dreams any of Nagato, Minato or Itachi can solo MS Obito, War Arc 1MS Kakashi and Gai up to 7th Gate. Either of them is more than a match, on the opposite they lose more fights than they could win, especially Itachi, and in spite of all his power Nagato too.

Nagato can't hit Obito due to Kamui phasing while Obito has different ways to land a finger on him and touch warp him in the other dimension. Nagato has great offensive and defensive powers but still can't do anything to avoid that Kakashi insta warps him with long range Kamui. Nagato most of times can't stop Gai to blitz and unleash Hiru Tora in his face.

Minato was in trouble against young Obito even if he won in the end, adult Obito will be the hell of a fight. Minato was able to Hiraishin away only at the last moment from Obito's Kamui, Kakashi's long range Kamui is faster and more unpredictable, and actually Minato couldn't perceive it when Kakashi used it on the Gedo Mazo, gaining Madara's praise; not to mention that Kakashi knows how Hiraishin works and he is definitely more complete than Minato, Hiraishin is Minato's bread and butter, Kamui is just Kakashi's trump card. Gai is physically faster (by far) than Minato and has far better reactions. His taijutsu skill and reflexes allowed him to fend off War Arc Obito's CQC Kamui phasing without letting him to touch him and making him phase to not being hit, while Minato wasn't able to do the same with Young Obito and was caught by his chain and had to resort to Hiraishin to dodge away; Minato isn't touching Gai to mark him with Hiraishin. Nunchaku also deflect the Hiraishin kunai, and Asa Kujaku and Hiru Tora totally screw on them, teleporting is useless with that giant AoE. But for hell's sake, just compare their feats, LoL. Minato vs Juudara: Minato tries to surprise Juudara with Hiraishin to land Rasengan but Juudara react with ease and counterhits by cutting the attacking arm and then kicking Minato away like shit, with Minato not being able to react and use Hiraishin in both istances. Minato isn't even able to end the attack he was trying, before he is swapped away. Gai vs Juudara: Gai clearly pressures Juudara with his speed and taijutsu skills, without letting him to touch him with the Gudodama staff or balls, and manages to corner him and launch his finishing attack, even if then is countered and defeated back. 7th Gate Gai definitely defeats Minato.

Itachi can't do anything to hit Obito that reacts to everything and phases through with Kamui, this man thanks to Kamui phasing was handling himself against BM Naruto, War Arc Kakashi, Gai and Killer B; Obito makes Itachi waste his chakra, since using Susanoo or Amaterasu and missing will easily drain him, then closes the distance and warps him in CQC. Itachi has nothing to do against Kakashi's long range Kamui, he is not reacting to it by feats let alone countering it, Kamui is faster than Amaterasu, warps even Susanoo or Itachi in Susanoo, and doesn't need eye contact so Kakashi can avoid Tsukuyomi. War Arc Kakashi has also better feats in everything, from speed to chakra, bar genjutsu, where he can defend himself and avoid Tsukuyomi. Itachi against Gai will be quickly pressured to defend with Susanoo, he can't fight Gai in CQC and his ninjutsu will all be dodged, even Totsuka or Amaterasu, Gai opens the 7th Gate, runs circles around Susanoo and smashes it from the back with Hiru Tora.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 4, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Not at all, lol. Deidara was at Kakashi's mercy, he even admitted it, he was amazed by Kakashi's dojutsu. He was just lucky that Kakashi didn't have mastered


Stopped reading here.

You said beginning of part 2 Kamui was comparable to Amaterasu and now that you realized it isn't, you are pulling out excuses. Who cares If hadn't mastered it ? (lol @ kamui requiring mastery). It wasn't comparable at that point. End of discussion.
Low end Amaterasu > Beginning of part 2 Kamui.


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## Mercurial (Jul 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Stopped reading here.
> 
> You said beginning of part 2 Kamui was comparable to Amaterasu and now that you realized it isn't, you are pulling out excuses. Who cares If hadn't mastered it ? (lol @ kamui requiring mastery). It wasn't comparable at that point. End of discussion.
> Low end Amaterasu > Beginning of part 2 Kamui.



Are you on drug? I never realized that it isn't nor I am pulling excuses for that, I am just reporting facts. And with comparable I mean comparable but still being better, since Kamui's nature is better than Amaterasu in first place (if you are hit by Kamui, you lose that part of the body, if it's the head or the chest you are dead, and if that's all the body you are doomed to die in the other dimension sooner or later; if you are hit by Amaterasu, there are a lot of ways to survive, like cut off the part and regenerate, have a chakra shroud, use some powers like Shinra Tensei, or just... take of your clothes  you can dodge and parry/counter Amaterasu, you can only dodge Kamui, you can't parry/counter it; and even beginning of Shippuden Kamui is more difficult since it's not preceded by the eye crying blood like Amaterasu is, and after the first time Kakashi already doesn't need to charge chakra in his eye, or does it so fast that it isn't an issue anymore, while everyone and their mother could always sense, react or preempt Amaterasu). 

Deal with it, you are fighting a non sensical battle. Even people who think that Kakashi's group isn't winning are saying that Amaterasu is non factor here. Just deal with it, don't be a Hussain.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 4, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Are you on drug? I never realized that it isn't nor I am pulling excuses for that, I am just reporting facts. And with comparable I mean comparable but still being better, since Kamui's nature is better than Amaterasu in first place (if you are hit by Kamui, you lose that part of the body, if it's the head or the chest you are dead, and if that's all the body you are doomed to die in the other dimension sooner or later; if you are hit by Amaterasu, there are a lot of ways to survive, like cut off the part and regenerate, have a chakra shroud, use some powers like Shinra Tensei, or just... take of your clothes  you can dodge and parry/counter Amaterasu, you can only dodge Kamui, you can't parry/counter it; and even beginning of Shippuden Kamui is more difficult since it's not preceded by the eye crying blood like Amaterasu is, and after the first time Kakashi already doesn't need to charge chakra in his eye, or does it so fast that it isn't an issue anymore, while everyone and their mother could always sense, react or preempt Amaterasu).


I don't do drugs.

You said Amaterasu is comparable to Beginning of part 2 Kamui no ? And when I pointed out that it isn't(not even remotely close) you said "it wasn't mastered back then." No fucking shit. Isn't it why you compared it to Amaterasu in the first place ? Because it was an inferior version of Kamui ?
So why is that an issue now ? 

Beginning of part 2 Kamui can be dodged by Deidara. Deidara can't dodge Amaterasu.
End of discussion.



> Deal with it, you are fighting a non sensical battle. Even people who think that Kakashi's group isn't winning are saying that Amaterasu is non factor here. Just deal with it, don't be a Hussain.



Actually the biggest supporter of that argument is Hussain. So you may have to re evaluate it


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## Mercurial (Jul 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't do drugs.
> 
> You said Amaterasu is comparable to Beginning of part 2 Kamui no ? And when I pointed out that it isn't(not even remotely close) you said "it wasn't mastered back then." No fucking shit. Isn't it why you compared it to Amaterasu in the first place ? Because it was an inferior version of Kamui ?
> So why is that an issue now ?
> ...



I just pointed that out because it was a fact that it wasn't mastered back then, there wasn't other reason.

Deidara was helpless. The first time Kakashi was killing him and plot made him change his aim to the arm at the last moment (I say plot because he could have aimed from the head to the heart, instead of the arm, just the same) and the second time Kakashi lost his focus, Deidara was at his mercy.

Hussain just hates Itachi so hates his jutsu, that's it.


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## Icegaze (Jul 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> No he didn't.
> 
> He claimed that his dojutsu was on a similar level compared to Itachi's because they both had the Mangekyo.
> 
> Kakashi's Dojutsu certainly did surpass Itachi's Dojutsu in offensive capabilities further into the manga.



dont get what u saying was a dig at grimm
am sayign amaterasu<<<<<<<kamui


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 4, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> I just pointed that out because it was a fact that it wasn't mastered back then, there wasn't other reason.
> 
> Deidara was helpless. The first time Kakashi was killing him and plot made him change his aim to the arm at the last moment (I say plot because he could have aimed from the head to the heart, instead of the arm, just the same) and the second time Kakashi lost his focus, Deidara was at his mercy.
> 
> Hussain just hates Itachi so hates his jutsu, that's it.



Lol plot


Deidara was moving. Thats why Kakashi wasn't able to snipe him properly. In his second attempt, Deidara outright dodged it.


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## Harbour (Jul 4, 2015)

> What?


Didn't read after that lol. 
Just deal with the fact that each of the second team  is 2-5 times better in feats and hype than each of the first team. During the whole manga series. Till the end.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 4, 2015)

Start of Part 2 Kamui wasn't on Amatersu level in terms of speed. Kakashi needed some time to build up chakra for MS to even activate. And warp-barrier creation took time. It is a better offense in some situations and superior defense. But speed-wise it was a good deal below. That Kakashi is very likely incapable of replicating Itachi's escape from J-Man's tech.


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## Mercurial (Jul 4, 2015)

Harbour said:


> Didn't read after that lol.
> Just deal with the fact that each of the second team  is 2-5 times better in feats and hype than each of the first team. During the whole manga series. Till the end.



You must have stopped reading the manga in 2006, maybe 2007, that's sad because you know the manga moved. Sad that you missed.



Alex Payne said:


> Start of Part 2 Kamui wasn't on Amatersu level in terms of speed. Kakashi needed some time to build up chakra for MS to even activate. And warp-barrier creation took time. It is a better offense in some situations and superior defense. But speed-wise it was a good deal below. That Kakashi is very likely incapable of replicating Itachi's escape from J-Man's tech.





And that was with a Shippuden beginning Kakashi that already tired himself using two times already the Mangekyo, Alex.

Shippuden beginning Kamui >= Amaterasu
Shippuden Pain Arc/Kage Meeting Arc Kamui >> Amaterasu
War Arc Kamui >>>>>>> Amaterasu
DMS Rikudo Kamui >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amaterasu


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> dont get what u saying was a dig at grimm
> am sayign amaterasu<<<<<<<kamui



 You stated that an Undeveloped Kamui was on the level of Itachi's Amaterasu when the reader can easily infer that Deidara was making a reference to both users having the Mangekyo.

 Further into the manga, it's clear which one is superior offensively, but at this point, it's certainly not.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 4, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> This thread is tailor made to destroy the Battledome.
> 
> None shall survive this meeting of fandoms. The Manga Gods will feed on the sacrifices this thread offers up.


This right here.
Pitting Kakashi wank against Itachi wank is worse than dropping fuel into a fire.


on topic: team 2 destroys.
anyone who read the manga can get to that conclusion rather easily.


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## Rocky (Jul 4, 2015)

Start of PII Kamui was trash. 

I remember when I first started watching Naruto Shippuden. Shit had an entire episode dedicated to Kakashi Kamui'ing Deidara's arm.


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## Amol (Jul 4, 2015)

Team Minato wins . 
It is no brainer.
Hiraishin is superior to both Kamui so Kamui is non issue in this match.
Rest doesn't need to explain.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 5, 2015)

I also love how Kakashi was subject to massive power inflation just so he could keep up further on in the manga 
Kakashi
He was on his ass after two kamui attempts, and those were incredibly small Kamui too


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 5, 2015)

>>> Complains about plot as an excuse

>>> Uses plot as an argument

GG Grimm. U so smart. Amaterasu is so amazing. It did so many useful things throughout the manga. I think it almost killed somebody once!


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## Alex Payne (Jul 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I also love how Kakashi was subject to massive power inflation just so he could keep up further on in the manga
> Kakashi
> He was on his ass after two kamui attempts, and those were incredibly small Kamui too


His mastery grew over time  
And he did send a big ass explosion away just a couple of minutes later.



Raikiri19 said:


> And that was with a Shippuden beginning Kakashi that already tired himself using two times already the Mangekyo, Alex.


 And that was Itachi after 2 Tsukuyomis and some minor techs. Kakashi would drop on the floor right after warping a hole, without being able to actually escape through said hole.



Raikiri19 said:


> Shippuden beginning Kamui >= Amaterasu
> Shippuden Pain Arc/Kage Meeting Arc Kamui >> Amaterasu


No. Kamui was better in few defensive cases. But overall it was inferior at those points. It was at best equal @ Kage Summit Arc.



Raikiri19 said:


> War Arc Kamui >>>>>>> Amaterasu
> DMS Rikudo Kamui >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amaterasu


 That's true but irrelevant.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> His mastery grew over time


It is some major leap in chakra efficency, dat Kakashi 



> And he did send a big ass explosion away just a couple of minutes later.


And woke up in the hospital 



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> >>> Complains about plot as an excuse
> 
> >>> Uses plot as an argument
> 
> GG Grimm. U so smart. Amaterasu is so amazing. It did so many useful things throughout the manga. I think it almost killed somebody once!



Yeah.. What was Kamui's body count again ?


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2015)

7th-Gate Gai would be able to take Nagato, the dude spared with a Juubi-Jin.

Kakashi vs Itachi could go ether way as both are brilliant tactically and have powerful one-shots to use against each other.

MS-Obito would beat Minato if he isn't fighting the entire Konoha Village at the same time. As Minato will have to deal with Gedo Mazou and Obito at the same time, which he'll loose out against eventually.

So basically it comes down to whether Gai can defeat Nagato during the time in which he can maintain 7th-Gate, which I believe he can. So Team Gai takes it with a huge amount of difficulty.


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## Altair21 (Jul 5, 2015)

^Since when the fuck can MS Obito summon the Gedo Mazo? This is not Rinnegan Obito.


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

MS Obito can't summon the Gedo Mazo, and Jubidara beat Gai with just taijutsu (though I do think it's possible for Seventh Gate Gai to beat Nagato under the right circumstances).


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2015)

> and Jubidara beat Gai with just taijutsu





Turrin said:


> the dude spared with a Juubi-Jin.


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## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

So we can say Sasuke spared with killer bee 7 sword style as well since sasuke had just as many clashes as Gai did with juudara 

Sadly no one every claims that so why claim it for Gai 

I count 2 hit marks . Sasuke had even more against killer bee yet Everytime people say killed bee sword style trolled him


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

Obito can control it if it's there, but he can't summon it. You need a Rinnegan to do that.


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Obito can control it if it's there, but he can't summon it. You need a Rinnegan to do that.



Obito was a child still in the middle of his training, tha'ts why. When Akatsuki seals B, who do you think summon Gedo Mazo while Nagato was off fighting Konohagakuru?



Icegaze said:


> So we can say Sasuke spared with killer bee 7 sword style as well since sasuke had just as many clashes as Gai did with juudara
> 
> Sadly no one every claims that so why claim it for Gai
> 
> I count 2 hit marks . Sasuke had even more against killer bee yet Everytime people say killed bee sword style trolled him


Umm yes people did cite that shit, it's called feats, we use them here all the time. Welcome to the NBD.


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Obito was a child still in the middle of his training, tha'ts why.



Zetsu didn't say anything about that, nor did Madara in that scan you posted. If you think that Obito's age was why Zetsu said he couldn't summon it, then Madara would've said "you _will be able to_ control the Mazo," not "you _can_ control it," which indicates he can do it now.



Turrin said:


> When Akatsuki seals B, who do you think summon Gedo Mazo while Nagato was off fighting Konohagakuru?



Nagato could have summoned it before he went anywhere. It probably didn't need to be summoned since Nagato didn't use it in battle between sealings.

That's no reason to go against Zetsu's statement.


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## Icegaze (Jul 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Obito was a child still in the middle of his training, tha'ts why. When Akatsuki seals B, who do you think summon Gedo Mazo while Nagato was off fighting Konohagakuru?
> 
> 
> Umm yes people did cite that shit, it's called feats, we use them here all the time. Welcome to the NBD.



So in your opinions did killed bee 7 sword style troll
Sasuke or not ?

Just want to hear it from you . Need a base line here


----------



## Jagger (Jul 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Obito was a child still in the middle of his training, tha'ts why. When Akatsuki seals B, who do you think summon Gedo Mazo while Nagato was off fighting Konohagakuru?


Nowhere in the comment Zetsu indicates or even hints that the reason why Obito cannot summon the statue is Obito's lack of experience and age, he outright tells him that only Madara and Nagato could summon Gedo Mazo, which is true, at least until Obito recovered Madara's Rinnegan.

Why would it need to be summoned? Nagato didn't use Gedo Mazo during battles.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah.. What was Kamui's body count again ?



Pretty similar to Amaterasu's body count. The difference is that Kamui is useful for a lot more than just killing people. That's all Amaterasu is useful for and it can't even manage that much.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 5, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Pretty similar to Amaterasu's body count. The difference is that Kamui is useful for a lot more than just killing people. That's all Amaterasu is useful for and it can't even manage that much.



I agree that Kamui is more useful overall but that has nothing to do with our debate.
If you go back and read my initial post, I said "from a purely offensive point of view."


----------



## Joakim3 (Jul 5, 2015)

Skilatry said:


> MS Kakashi, Gai, MS Obito vs. Itachi, Prime Nagato, Minato



Do Kakashi, Gai & Obito have lube or not, because they get completely curbed 

Gai gets jail raped by Nagato, anything below 7th Gate is insta-foddererd. Which brings me to 7th Gated Gai. Assuming Nagato _lets him transform_ Hirudora isn't downing a healthy living Nagato when it failed to down a _significantly_ less durable Kisame. Nagato can eat Gai's strongest attack, the same cannot be said about Gai. One large ST let alone CST and Gai is turned into red smear on the ground.

In regard to Nagato's & Gai's teamates. Minato *HARD* counters both Kakashi & Obito. Hell in all honestly... I/you could make a case for Minato & Nagato two manning team one. Throwing Itachi in the mix completely turns this match one sided. So now instead of Gai,Kakashi & Obito have to deal with a Rinnegan user and a man that makes all their offense effectively pointless.. they now have to constantly watch for Itachi trolling he brings (especially in this location). 

The Gai and the _Kamui_ duo get properly put into the fucking ground


----------



## Joakim3 (Jul 5, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Nowhere in the comment Zetsu indicates or even hints that the reason why Obito cannot summon the statue is Obito's lack of experience and age, he outright tells him that only Madara and Nagato could summon Gedo Mazo, which is true, at least until Obito recovered Madara's Rinnegan.
> 
> Why would it need to be summoned? Nagato didn't use Gedo Mazo during battles.



He did _pre-Pein Rikudo_. Konan implied she had scene the statue beforehand when he summoned it against Hanzo

That being said Nagato isn't summoning that unless bloodlusted so idk why it's being discussed


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 5, 2015)

It's weird. So weird that i don't know if Gai used Hirudora in base or not. But in one ocassion he instantly opens the 7th gate in the blink of an eye when he blasted Madara, but against Juudara he took some seconds. I don't know anymore.

But if he can open them incredibly quick and attack quick enough or use Hirudora in base, either would make him more deadly. Not to say he will beat Nagato, but i don't see him having troubles to get use the 7th gate.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

I never understood the "Hirodura in base" argument. 

He just popped into the seventh gate real quick. He's skilled with them. He can jump right into them.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I never understood the "Hirodura in base" argument.
> 
> He just popped into the seventh gate real quick. He's skilled with them. He can jump right into them.



I am not affirming he did. I do agree with what you said. But not everybody, like Joakim said "If Nagato lets him enter", Gai can do that incredibly fast despite how much time he took against Juudara.

But, if people doesn't want to take that as his fastest gates activation time , then the only other answer for him blasting Madara away with Hirudora was doing it in base.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

Context? There's absolutely _nothing_ saying that Obito could summon it. Summon ≠ Control.

Tell me, did the Akatsuki attempt to seal B in the same place that they sealed the last tailed beast?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Context? There's absolutely _nothing_ saying that Obito could summon it. Summon ≠ Control.


Yeah summoning is easier lol



> Tell me, did the Akatsuki attempt to seal B in the same place that they sealed the last tailed beast?


Wow Nagato is so fucking amazing he can maintain a Kuchiyose for months. Dam that guys good.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yeah summoning is easier lol



They're two completely separate things.



Turrin said:


> Wow Nagato is so fucking amazing he can maintain a Kuchiyose for months. Dam that guys good.



What the hell does "maintain Kuchiyose" mean? Summoning is just moving one or more things from one place to another.


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They're two completely separate things.


And one is easier than thee other. Also expecting an Obito with no formal training to be able to control GM right away is 



> What the hell does "maintain Kuchiyose" mean? Summoning is just moving one or more things from one place to another.


Well why did Gamkichi say his summoning time was up and disappear then?


----------



## Bonly (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What the hell does "maintain Kuchiyose" mean? Summoning is just moving one or more things from one place to another.



Summon jutsu has a time limit on how long said summoning can stay on the battle field apparently as The Queen of solo, the Great Katsuyu-Sama mentioned it and Gamakichi mention it as well. So the "maintain Kuchiyose" that Turrin mentioned would likely be the fact that Nagato summoned the Gedo and it didn't go poof for months.

Edit: Welp Turrin speedblitzed me, you may ignore this post


----------



## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And one is easier than thee other. Also expecting an Obito with no formal training to be able to control GM right away is



Why? What exactly does it take to control the thing?

What does this even matter anyway? My point is that it can't be summoned without the Rinnegan. It doesn't matter if summoning it (once obtaining the Rinnegan) is easier than controlling it. 



Turrin said:


> Well why did Gamkichi say his summoning time was up and disappear then?



Dunno. Maybe the toads have some sort of time limit before they have to return to the mountain. 

Katsuyu didn't have the same limit because she stayed to my recollection (and was present for the whole Pain invasion too). Speaking of which, Naruto didn't randomly disappear half-way through the Pain fight (or ever) and return to Toad Mountain because his "time limit ran out." Edo Tensei is Kuchiyose, and those don't operate on a timer either.

You're just assuming Gedo Mazo does (for no reason) so you can try and make your point.


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## Turrin (Jul 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why? What exactly does it take to control the thing?
> 
> What does this even matter anyway? My point is that it can't be summoned without the Rinnegan. It doesn't matter if summoning it (once obtaining the Rinnegan) is easier than controlling it.


That isn't stated anywhere. Literally all that's stated is that only Madara and Nagato could currently summon GM, and considering Obito was a kid with no training with the statue yet, that's hardly surprising. 



> Dunno. Maybe the toads have some sort of time limit before they have to return to the mountain.
> 
> Katsuyu didn't have the same limit because she stayed to my recollection (and was present for the whole Pain invasion too). Speaking of which, Naruto didn't randomly disappear half-way through the Pain fight (or ever) and return to Toad Mountain because his "time limit ran out." Edo Tensei is Kuchiyose, and those don't operate on a timer either.
> 
> You're just assuming Gedo Mazo does (for no reason) so you can try and make your point.


Like Bonly said Katsuya mentions it as well, so there is definitely some confusion there.

------
But I digress as this is irrelevant since Obito wins regardless of whether he can summon GM or not.


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2015)

It would take Obito forever to beat Minato (if he could at all).


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## Turrin (Jul 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It would take Obito forever to beat Minato (if he could at all).


True, but MS-Obito is primarily a defensive fighter after all.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 6, 2015)

I think it could go either way between those two, but since Kakashi isn't much of a match for Itachi and Gai probably isn't beating Nagato unless _everything_ goes his way, Team Obito is going to lose.


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## thechickensage (Jul 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> True, but MS-Obito is primarily a defensive fighter after all.



Even if they had near-equal speed, it's up to a clever, deceptive tactic to win...in which case Obito dies.


*In terms of intelligence:*
Itachi, Minato, and Kakashi are three of the most intelligent shinobi in the Narutoverse,

Gai is pretty dumb, Nagato is okay, and Obito is just decent.

*In terms of teamwork:*
Itachi doesn't know Minato who doesn't know Nagato.  Zero teamwork, although they are all extremely gifted and all very gifted.  Their abilities are very hard to predict, so they wouldn't know how to be effective as a team.  Except that Minato works with any team.

Gai and Kakashi have worked together for so long, and have such a strong rapport...this means they will fight almost perfectly in a team
Kakashi and Obito were on the same team, and know each others strengths, weaknesses, and tactics.  In addition they share a kamui which can be combined for faster use.  And since GGai is nearly purely taijutsu, so it's really easy to predict where he will be/what he will be doing (FOR BOTH SIDES).  Team Kakashi easily easily easily easily easily easily win in terms of teamwork and synergy.

*In terms of individual power:*
Gai- insane power with 7 gates
Kakashi- extremely intelligent, support kamui (cause Kamui GG isn't a thing)
Obito- only hittable by Minato probably

Minato- basically won't ever be hit, extremely intelligent
Itachi- maxx haxx + extremely intelligent
Nagato- RinneBaby.  _Obito would have full knowledge of Nagato though, right?_


----------



## Turrin (Jul 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I think it could go either way between those two, but since Kakashi isn't much of a match for Itachi and Gai probably isn't beating Nagato unless _everything_ goes his way, Team Obito is going to lose.


War-Arc Kakashi should be able to put up a good fight against Itachi. While I feel Kamui is overrated it's still a powerful technique and Kakashi has near full knowledge of Itachi's and the Mangekyo's capabilities at this point so he'd be quite prepared to put up a good fight against an opponent like Itachi. 

As far as Gai goes the only thing Nagato can do against his speed is perhaps ST, but one ST isn't taking down Gai, and will rape him before the cool down time is up with a successive attack. Or alternatively if Gai uses AT, Nagato will need ST to defend himself, but than Gai will kick the shit out of him right after that during the cool down. Morning Peacock is also a bitch for Nagato, since he has no defense but ST, but due to the consecutive number of sucessive attacks ST will only block some but not all and than fry him. Gai is Nagato's worst nightmare and Gai is way more powerful than he's typically given credit for.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> War-Arc Kakashi should be able to put up a good fight against Itachi. While I feel Kamui is overrated it's still a powerful technique and Kakashi has near full knowledge of Itachi's and the Mangekyo's capabilities at this point so he'd be quite prepared to put up a good fight against an opponent like Itachi.



I don't see it. This goes back to the thread I made. I don't see Kakashi jumping tiers between arcs so and competing with an opponent superior to the Sannin. 

He'd do okay because of his knowledge, but he isn't on Itachi's level.



Turrin said:


> As far as Gai goes the only thing Nagato can do against his speed is perhaps ST



If Gai full-on 7th Gate blitzkriegs Nagato right off that bat, then maybe Nagato won't be able to muster up enough ST power to give himself a bit of distance and hide/fly.

Will Gai do that (and immediately target Nagato) IC, though? You see Gai > Prime Nagato without the death gate?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 6, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Even if they had near-equal speed, it's up to a clever, deceptive tactic to win...in which case Obito dies.


I disagree. I think it comes down to the very simple fact that Obito's S-T Jutsu is much better than Hiraishin. Obito can become passively intangible, but Minato has no such ability with his S-T Jutsu, he can be hit by anything he doesn't activate his S-T Jutsu in time to evade. This means Minato has to go through the pains of making sure to avoid all of Obito's attacks, while Obito only needs to be concerned when he makes a choice to become tangible, and even than he has Izanagi to cover his ass just in case. Additionally Obito's ST Jutsu isn't limited by markings so while Obito can keep track of where Minato can warp to, Minato can't do the same for Obito, and can be taken off guard from behind enough to be warped as we saw when Obito warped behind him and grabbed him in the manga.

So to me it's not about tactics at all, it's about Kamui > Hiraishin, Obito having Izanagi as a fall back, and Obito having more chakra to outlast Minato if necessary.


----------



## thechickensage (Jul 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Obito's S-T Jutsu is much better than Hiraishin. Obito can become passively intangible, but Minato has no such ability with his S-T Jutsu, he can be hit by anything he doesn't activate his S-T Jutsu in time to evade. [plus some other stuff]



you're right, the Minato is definitely in the more difficult position.  if the two were equal shinobi in talent, skills, speed, and intelligence, then i agree with you that Obito's S/T jutsu is better than Minato's....but Minato is superior in every other way to Obito (imo)

i think Kakashi is the same as Itachi in terms of raw talent, so it's mainly up to eyeballs...in which case Itachi wins (sorry kamui).  Even ignoring both of their plot armor

although you'd think that if a non-uchiha could be known for possessing a wide range of copied jutsus, that the ultimate prodigy (minus shisui maybe) of this Uchiha pure-bred generation would know more jutsus than the standard boring Uchiha fire + "very special eyeballs"


----------



## Turrin (Jul 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't see it. This goes back to the thread I made. I don't see Kakashi jumping tiers between arcs so and competing with an opponent superior to the Sannin.
> 
> He'd do okay because of his knowledge, but he isn't on Itachi's level.


Kakashi isn't Tiers bellow the Sannin and Itachi isn't Tiers above the Sannin. The manga isn't planned around tiers [except the ultra broad Genin, Chunin, etc... ones] and that's why thinking about Kishi's intent within the confines of Tiers will only mess you up. It's better to think of it this way, Itachi is around as strong as Jiraiya, Kakashi in the Pain-Arc was weaker than Jiraiya, but he improved and closed some of that gap. Jiraiya/Itachi are still probably stronger than him, but it's not to the extent where Kakashi with an extremely knowledge advantage, which he has here, couldn't put up a good fight against one of them.



> If Gai full-on 7th Gate blitzkriegs Nagato right off that bat, then maybe Nagato won't be able to muster up enough ST power to give himself a bit of distance and hide/fly.


They start at close range and with Manga knowledge Gai is going to take the Rinnegan seriously enough that he will start the match with Gates.



thechickensage said:


> you're right, the Minato is definitely in the more difficult position.  if the two were equal shinobi in talent, skills, speed, and intelligence, then i agree with you that Obito's S/T jutsu is better than Minato's....but Minato is superior in every other way to Obito (imo)


I don't think a tiny bit extra speed and intelligence is changing the fact that Minato literally can't put down Obito, while Obito can put him down.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It's better to think of it this way, Itachi is around as strong as Jiraiya, Kakashi in the Pain-Arc was weaker than Jiraiya, but he improved and closed some of that gap.



Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya and Kakashi didn't really improve in between the two arcs outside if stamina inflation in my mind. It isn't like he had a training arc. 

"Putting up a good fight" is fine, but Kakashi's chance at _winning_ is not high. At all.



Turrin said:


> They start at close range and with Manga knowledge Gai is going to take the Rinnegan seriously enough that he will start the match with Gates.



I mean, maybe, but he didn't do what you described against the v2 Jinchuriki (that had the Rinnegan). It wasn't until some of the actual biju appeared that he broke out Asa Kujaku, and Hirodura came even later than that.

In this specific thread, Gai might not even choose to target Nagato either.

This is funny. We've switched places. I'm arguing for Nagato, and you're arguing that a High Tier gets blitzed in this manga.

We're loosing ourselves.


----------



## Sans (Jul 6, 2015)

Are you including or excluding War Arc feats from your assessment of Kakashi, Rocky? Not asking as a troll, but because my view on Kamui's feats from the War Arc is that Itachi gets destroyed in a nano-second by it.

Feats-wise, that is. I don't believe Kishi would draw that if he had them duke it out.


----------



## thechickensage (Jul 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't think a tiny bit extra speed and intelligence is changing the fact that Minato literally can't put down Obito, while Obito can put him down.



"literally can't put down obito"....when the only fight between them ended with Obito outwitted and outclassed.  Obviously this is years later with more mature Obito, but....all Minato has to do is [insert vs Ei requirements here]


----------



## Rocky (Jul 6, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> Are you including or excluding War Arc feats from your assessment of Kakashi, Rocky?



Kakashi could snipe nails and missiles out of the air (while half dead) without issue even back in the Pain Arc. 

If that missile were, say, Itachi's nuts, then Kakashi could win, by feats. That would never actually happen though.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 6, 2015)

Kakashi, Gai and Obito stomps. If Gai goes 7 Gate, he can speedblitz them by himself.


----------



## thechickensage (Jul 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If that missile were, say, Itachi's nuts, then Kakashi could win, by feats. That would never actually happen though.



Ha! You gave me the first lol of the morning.  Poor itachi wandering around wearing a cone of shame


----------



## Mercurial (Jul 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi could snipe nails and missiles out of the air (while half dead) without issue even back in the Pain Arc.
> 
> If that missile were, say, Itachi's nuts, then Kakashi could win, by feats. That would never actually happen though.



And pre War Arc he was implied to be able to defeat Kakuzu with Kamui, was able to corner Pain's strongest body (by far) plus the second strongest body without resorting to his trump card while Jiraiya had to use his trump card just to fight Animal Path and admitted that even in SM he was plain outclassed against three bodies, was said by the databook to be Konoha's number one shinobi (> Gai, > Jiraiya, >> pre SM Naruto, >>> Tsunade). With his feats and the advantage of knowledge (Kakashi canonically knew Susanoo, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi while Itachi didn't know about Kamui, just that Kakashi someway developed a Mangekyo) he could have definitely defeated Sick Itachi after a high difficult fight.

Really? When even by hype you have Kakashi's usage of Kamui praised by even Madara himself, with Kakashi who already said that he didn't ever think that someone could stop left eye Kamui and Kakashi (pre War Arc) being confident to use Kamui to defeat someone believed to be Madara? When KCM Minato felt that his arsenal was worthless to quickly defeat the Gedo Mazo compared to Kakashi possibly using Kamui, and with Minato actually unable to perceive what happened when Kakashi quickly activated Mangekyo and used Kamui? When Obito (who would low diff Itachi) with the right eye mastery could stalemate Kakashi, Gai, Naruto and B (who did actually nothing in all the fight, but nonetheless), and was defeated basically only thanks to Kakashi's left eye and his skill and timing in using it the right way? And by feats, well War Arc Kakashi low diffs Itachi. Itachi has nothing to do against Kakashi's long range Kamui, he is not reacting to it by feats let alone countering it, Kamui is faster than Amaterasu, warps even Susanoo or Itachi in Susanoo, and doesn't need eye contact so Kakashi can avoid Tsukuyomi. On top better and more haxxed Mangekyo as trump card, War Arc Kakashi has also better feats in everything, from speed to chakra, bar genjutsu, where he can defend himself and avoid Tsukuyomi.


----------



## Joakim3 (Jul 6, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I am not affirming he did. I do agree with what you said. But not everybody, like Joakim said "If Nagato lets him enter", Gai can do that incredibly fast despite how much time he took against Juudara.
> 
> But, if people doesn't want to take that as his fastest gates activation time , then the only other answer for him blasting Madara away with Hirudora was doing it in base.



The problem is Gai simply _cannot_ enter 7th gate *and* attack before Nagato can think and use _Shinra Tensei_. Hell Gai can't do it to Minato due to _Hirashin_ nor Itachi due to _Sasuno'o_. They all have the necessary reaction feats and all have justu that activate _significantly_ faster than Gates. 

People who think Gai can enter the 7th Gate _and_ attack before highly reflexive characters like Nagato/Itachi/Minato can even think of a subsequent counter/defense need to do some serious re-reading of the manga


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 6, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> The problem is Gai simply _cannot_ enter 7th gate *and* attack before Nagato can think and use _Shinra Tensei_. Hell Gai can't do it to Minato due to _Hirashin_ nor Itachi due to _Sasuno'o_. They all have the necessary reaction feats and all have justu that activate _significantly_ faster than Gates.
> 
> People who think Gai can enter the 7th Gate _and_ attack before highly reflexive characters like Nagato/Itachi/Minato can even think of a subsequent counter/defense need to do some serious re-reading of the manga



I never said Gai would do it before Nagato can think. I said Gai would enter 7th gates with no problems, be it Itachi, Nagato or Minato the one he's facing. Wether he beats them or not is another thing.

But Gai can do that extremely fast.


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## Joakim3 (Jul 6, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I never said Gai would do it before Nagato can think. I said Gai would enter 7th gates with no problems, be it Itachi, Nagato or Minato the one he's facing. Wether he beats them or not is another thing.
> 
> But Gai can do that extremely fast.



I never said you said that.... and yes Nagato could prevent an _immediate_ 7th gate attempt if he needed to

Gai simply *can't* activate 7th Gate before Nagato can ST him, it's that simple. Gai's only saving grace is that Nagato has virtually zero knowledge on him so he's not going to auto nuke him at the start of the match, giving Gai the time (regardless of how short it is) to enter it


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## LostSelf (Jul 6, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> I never said you said that.... and yes Nagato could prevent an _immediate_ 7th gate attempt if he needed to
> 
> Gai simply *can't* activate 7th Gate before Nagato can ST him, it's that simple. Gai's only saving grace is that Nagato has virtually zero knowledge on him so he's not going to auto nuke him at the start of the match, giving Gai the time (regardless of how short it is) to enter it



Nagato should read his mind to do so then. Because a beaten up Gai could do it so fast that he had enough time to punch tied up and the blast traveled a distance big enough that made Hachibi look small and blast Madara away before he could finish less than a mid-swing. Considering that Gai was in base when Madara was already attacking.

That also depends on the distance. Because if it's decent enough, Nagato won't prevent Gai from doing that. If it's close, then yes.


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## Joakim3 (Jul 6, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Nagato should read his mind to do so then. Because a beaten up Gai could do it so fast that he had enough time to punch tied up and the blast traveled a distance big enough that made Hachibi look small and blast Madara away before he could finish less than a mid-swing. Considering that Gai was in base when Madara was already attacking.
> 
> That also depends on the distance. Because if it's decent enough, Nagato won't prevent Gai from doing that. If it's close, then yes.



Nagato can see chakra flow... so in a sense he would know that Gai is going to something (the same way he pre-empted _Amaterasu_)

Again... it still takes _significantly_ less time for Nagato to use ST then it does to _Hirudora_ regardless of distance, which brings me to my second point. The distance is the same as the Naruto/Killer B vs. Nagato/Itachi fight which was what ~15m, not 100m+ like he was against Madara & Obito

Sorry, but Gai is not going 7th Gate before Nagato paste him into the ground from that distance....


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## Turrin (Jul 7, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> "literally can't put down obito"....when the only fight between them ended with Obito outwitted and outclassed.  Obviously this is years later with more mature Obito, but....all Minato has to do is [insert vs Ei requirements here]


Minato won that fight because 

A) Circumstances forced Obito to become tangible and rush the fight
B) Obito's Lack of knowledge, which he now has
C) Obito's  Lack of experience, which he now has

Obito will not be rushed here and can play it more cautious exhausting Minato. He also won't get caught off guard by Minato teleporting to a thrown Kunai, because of Point's A and Point's B.



Rocky said:


> Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya .


And I don't agree with that.



> and Kakashi didn't really improve in between the two arcs outside if stamina inflation in my mind. It isn't like he had a training arc.


Which since stamina was Kakashi's main weak area, that is a good improvement.



> "Putting up a good fight" is fine, but Kakashi's chance at _winning_ is not high. At all.


He doesn't really need to win here, he only needs to keep Itachi busy long enough for one of the others to finish their fights or to render Itachi weak enough where he isn't making much difference if he joined the other fights.



> I mean, maybe, but he didn't do what you described against the v2 Jinchuriki (that had the Rinnegan). It wasn't until some of the actual biju appeared that he broke out Asa Kujaku, and Hirodura came even later than that.


I think Gai knows the difference between the Paths and the actual user at this point. I also don't see how Nagato even deals with Asa Kujaku or escapes away from a 6th-Gate Gai, to hide himself.



> In this specific thread, Gai might not even choose to target Nagato either.


So let's say he doesn't, he'd very quickly destroy Minato or Itachi, if he faced them as nether can react to 7th-Gate's speed, and have no defense against the power of 7th-Gate.


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2015)

You speak of the 7th Gate like it's the 8th.


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## Icegaze (Jul 7, 2015)

^ people tend to do that far too much 

while gai would shit stomp a bunch of people in 7th gate to me any mid to high tier with auto defences are still going to be able to beat him quite simply 

MS obito should never have an issue with 7th gate gai

nor should nagato, minato, itachi, or kakashi


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## LostSelf (Jul 7, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Nagato can see chakra flow... so in a sense he would know that Gai is going to something (the same way he pre-empted _Amaterasu_)



Nagato could pre-empt Amaterasu for his sensing skills. Amaterasu has a build up. Gai's 7th gate fastest activation was near instant. In fact, it was as fast as Susano'o, activation if we compare them. Do you think Nagato can prevent Itachi or Sasuke the use of Susano'o? 



> Again... it still takes _significantly_ less time for Nagato to use ST then it does to _Hirudora_ regardless of distance, which brings me to my second point. The distance is the same as the Naruto/Killer B vs. Nagato/Itachi fight which was what ~15m, not 100m+ like he was against Madara & Obito




This is not a speed contest where the referee counts to three and they activates their jutsu. This is a fight, and if Gai decides to use 7th gate before Nagato uses ST, he's not preventing it. How he reacts after is another thing.

But he's not preventing an activation as fast as this. And i am not talking about Hirudora. I especifically said the 7th gate activation _only_. I used Hirudora as an example of how fast Gai activated the 7th, that he was able to form the handseal and attack a Madara that was already attacking.

Let's count that this same Madara could turn around and put his arm up before Ei could hit his face with a surprise attack being _inches from his face_. Adding that Susano'o, are sometimes faster than the user thanks to the amount of distance they can cover faster, such like how Sasuke could reach Itachi with his Susano'o hand, or how Madara's clones could force V2 Ei to block.

Gai activated the 7th gate in the blink of an eye, before Madara's sword could advance a mere centimeter.  And due to the speed of his activation, outspeed Madara with his own attack. That's why i mentioned Hirudora.

So i don't see Nagato preventing Gai from using the 7th if he decides to use it first. Gai dying before that is something irrelevant to what i am saying. Or the speed of Hirudora.



> Sorry, but Gai is not going 7th Gate before Nagato paste him into the ground from that distance....




Killing Gai before he decides to use the 7th Gate =/= outspeeding Gai's fastest 7th gate activation if Gai decides to use it first. I already said Gai loses to Nagato. But not because of the reasons you are stating.

The distance Naruto and Bee had with Nagato is enough for Gai to open it safely if he does that first. 


P.D: I actually think his 7th gated feat against Juudara is so overlooked too because people cannot believe/accept that Gai did better than Minato. But, sadly, he did .


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## Icegaze (Jul 7, 2015)

i still dont see why engaging juudara in taijutsu who has to physically move his body to block has anythign to do with nagato who only need react to send gai flying 

so unless juudara reactions+physical movement exceed nagato simply reacting he is breaking gai neck with ST


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## LostSelf (Jul 7, 2015)

I agree that Nagato can react to Gai and send him flying. If you read carefully, that's not what i am arguing. I am saying that Gai can open 7th gates if he wants to do it, no matter wich opponent he's facing of those three. I am not saying he's going to beat Nagato, nor Itachi, nor Minato.

Just that he can open the 7th without being killed in the process. Or can be killed before he decides he needs to do it.


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## Icegaze (Jul 7, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I agree that Nagato can react to Gai and send him flying. If you read carefully, that's not what i am arguing. I am saying that Gai can open 7th gates if he wants to do it, no matter wich opponent he's facing of those three. I am not saying he's going to beat Nagato, nor Itachi, nor Minato.
> 
> Just that he can open the 7th without being killed in the process. Or can be killed before he decides he needs to do it.



ok we agree on that
gai going 7th gate isnt going to be an issue for him 

he can amp as quick as A can shroud up


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## Turrin (Jul 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You speak of the 7th Gate like it's the 8th.


You speak of Nagato/Itachi/Minato as if they were Juubidara 

The fact of the matter is 7th-Gate Gai kept up with Juubidara, he didn't win out, but he kept up with him. While SM-Minato was raped by Juubidara's speed immediately. 7th-Gate Gai should be quick enough to give Minato similar treatment, and this is further supported by the fact that Ei came so close to hitting Minato, and 7th-Gai Gai is a shit tun faster than Ei. Itachi is even worse off as far as reacting to Gai's speed goes, and Hirodora can deal with his Susano'o. Nagato might be able to pull S-T in time, but that's good for a grand total of 1 get out of jail free card, and than Gai proceeds to demolish him right after that during the cool down.

This isn't what Gai is capable off in 8th-Gate, this is what he is capable off the moment he kept up with Juubidara when a character like SM-Minato using Hiraishin was fodderized. If this was 8th-Gate Gai, he'd just release a single evening elephant and that entire team would be fodderized in 1 second. I don't think you comprehend just how great the power inflation was at the end of the War-arc and just how fast/strong/etc... the Juubi Jins actually are compared to everyone else.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so itachi got better reactions than
> 
> nagato, minato, Ms obito and kakashi



Itachi reacted to a lightning which hits a ground within 1/1000 of a second. I want you to show me Nagato, Minato, MS Obito and kakashi demonstrating something like that.


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## Icegaze (Jul 7, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi reacted to a lightning which hits a ground within 1/1000 of a second. I want you to show me Nagato, Minato, MS Obito and kakashi demonstrating something like that.



he reacted to sasuke dropping his hand which had to happen before kirin even moved. sasuke guided it

nice try though

btw sasuke compared kirin speed to amaterasu. which has been shown to be slower than kamui which minato casually reacted to 

nice try once again

also i hope u dont think obito would have an issue avoiding kirin. thats a fodder jutsu to obito


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> he reacted to sasuke dropping his hand which had to happen before kirin even moved. sasuke guided it



 10

 The bottom indicates that Itachi reacted to Sasuke after he guided the lightening, hence why Itachi's still retains his Mangekyo in his left eye during the flash.


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## Joakim3 (Jul 7, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Nagato could pre-empt Amaterasu for his sensing skills. Amaterasu has a build up. Gai's 7th gate fastest activation was near instant. In fact, it was as fast as Susano'o, activation if we compare them. Do you think Nagato can prevent Itachi or Sasuke the use of Susano'o?



He knew Itachi was going to use _Amaterasu_ before his eye even started bleeding, that is a SM Kabuto/SM Naruto/Karin level sensing feat. Second stop acting like _Amaterasu_ needs some massive build up because Itachi was trying to fry massive summons. We've seen Itachi & Sasuke use it nigh on instantly against SM Kabuto.

Nagato can sense chakra and visualize it's flow via dojutsu. _Theortically_, yes Nagato would be able to prevent a _Sasuno'o_ formation provided he had the necessary mental reaction feats

Then again Sasuno'o forms _significantly_ faster then Gai transforming into 7th Gate, so it's a moot point



LostSelf said:


> This is not a speed contest where the referee counts to three and they activates their jutsu. This is a fight, and if Gai decides to use 7th gate before Nagato uses ST, he's not preventing it. How he reacts after is another thing.



Of course it's not.... Except Nagato can preemptively anticipate the 7th Gate, Gai cannot do the same with Nagato. 



LostSelf said:


> But he's not preventing an activation as fast as this. And i am not talking about Hirudora. I especifically said the 7th gate activation _only_. I used Hirudora as an example of how fast Gai activated the 7th, that he was able to form the handseal and attack a Madara that was already attacking.



As fast as what? You act like entering the 7th Gate is one of the fastest actions in the manga? Sure it's a quick activation technique but your acting as if it's on the same tier as things like _Shinra Tensei_, _Hirashin_, _Sasuno'o_ or _Kamui_ in regards activations times, which it's _FAR_ from



LostSelf said:


> Let's count that this same Madara could turn around and put his arm up before Ei could hit his face with a surprise attack being _inches from his face_. Adding that Susano'o, are sometimes faster than the user thanks to the amount of distance they can cover faster, such like how Sasuke could reach Itachi with his Susano'o hand, or how Madara's clones could force V2 Ei to block.



First, Madara's vision was blocked thanks to Mei, second... Ei was fighting in V1, not V2. It's debatable if V2 Ei's point-to-point _Shunshin_ is faster than 7th Gate's basic movement speed.



LostSelf said:


> Gai activated the 7th gate in the blink of an eye, before Madara's sword could advance a mere centimeter.  And due to the speed of his activation, outspeed Madara with his own attack. That's why i mentioned Hirudora.



Gai activated the 7th Gate and used _Hirudora_ in roughly the same time frame it took Kakashi to charge up _Raikiri_ and attack Obito. Which in manga speed terms... is an eternity compared to things like _Shinra Tensei_ let alone something like _Hirashin_



LostSelf said:


> So i don't see Nagato preventing Gai from using the 7th if he decides to use it first. Gai dying before that is something irrelevant to what i am saying. Or the speed of Hirudora.



Again Gai entered 7th Gate and used _Hirudora_ in roughly the same time frame Kakashi charged up and used _Raikiri_... and I bet you my life saving Nagato could pr-empt the latter


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## Icegaze (Jul 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Naruto got from just entering BSM in base.
> 
> The bottom indicates that Itachi reacted to Sasuke after he guided the lightening, hence why Itachi's still retains his Mangekyo in his left eye during the flash.



ok lightning which was compared to amaterasu in speed directly which has been shown to be slower than kamui which minato casually reacts to 

the same kamui that needed its speed to be doubled to avoid goudama that minato was able to use hirashin twice against

yh if itachi can react to 7th gate gai everyone on this thread does so


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## LostSelf (Jul 7, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> He knew Itachi was going to use _Amaterasu_ before his eye even started bleeding, that is a SM Kabuto/SM Naruto/Karin level sensing feat. Second stop acting like _Amaterasu_ needs some massive build up because Itachi was trying to fry massive summons. We've seen Itachi & Sasuke use it nigh on instantly against SM Kabuto.
> 
> Nagato can sense chakra and visualize it's flow via dojutsu. _Theortically_, yes Nagato would be able to prevent a _Sasuno'o_ formation provided he had the *necessary mental reaction feats*


*
*
. Nagato especifically know Ammy was coming sensing it. Not seeing the chakra flow. He especifically said "This heat", wich is a clear indication of sensing. Not visualizing. He had no reason to be looking at Itachi when they were partners. 




> Then again Sasuno'o forms _significantly_ faster then Gai transforming into 7th Gate, so it's a moot point



Considering gates is an instant burst of chakra. Like Icegaze said, Gai does this as fast as Ei creates his shroud. If not faster.



> Of course it's not.... Except Nagato can preemptively anticipate the 7th Gate, Gai cannot do the same with Nagato.



The thing is not Gai doing it with Nagato. The thing is Gai managing to enter 7th gate before Nagato interrupts him. Wich is plausible depending on the distance. His supposed buildup (wich he didn't show to have) was near instant. Nagato can capitalize on that, but on a large distance, it won't just give him enough time.



> As fast as what? You act like entering the 7th Gate is one of the fastest actions in the manga? Sure it's a quick activation technique but your acting as if it's on the same tier as things like _Shinra Tensei_, _Hirashin_, _Sasuno'o_ or _Kamui_ in regards activations times, which it's _FAR_ from



It doesn't need to be Hiraishin level to be able to use it against Nagato. It just needs to be near instant.



> First, Madara's vision was blocked thanks to Mei, second... Ei was fighting in V1, not V2. It's debatable if V2 Ei's point-to-point _Shunshin_ is faster than 7th Gate's basic movement speed.



What does Madara's vision being blocked have to do with this? It doesn't matter, Ei was less than an inch from Madara's face. 



> Gai activated the 7th Gate and used _Hirudora_ in roughly the same time frame it took Kakashi to charge up _Raikiri_ and attack Obito. Which in manga speed terms... is an eternity compared to things like _Shinra Tensei_ let alone something like _Hirashin_



Ahm, no. Gai already opened the gates when Kakashi was charging Chidori. What you saw there was Kakashi completeing two steps at the same time it took Hirudora the time to complete 100 times more the distance Kakashi traveled.

Shinra Tensei is not as fast as Hiraishin either, by distance traveled. Activation is another thing. Wich is why depends on the distance.



> Again Gai entered 7th Gate and used _Hirudora_ in roughly the same time frame Kakashi charged up and used _Raikiri_... and I bet you my life saving Nagato could pr-empt the latter



Except that this is wrong. Kakashi charged Raikiri and saved Obito comparatively to Hirudora traveling. Wich is not even a comparison considering that Gai was incredibly far from Madara, when Kakashi was here:

*Spoiler*: __


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## StarWanderer (Jul 7, 2015)

> btw sasuke compared kirin speed to amaterasu



Realy? Show me a scan from manga, please. And prove that a lightning which moves to the ground form the sky in 1/1000 of a second is a fodder jutsu for Obito. 

The rest was answered by NarutoX28.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ok lightning which was compared to amaterasu in speed directly which has been shown to be slower than kamui which minato casually reacts to



 What you're saying never happened. Kirin and Amaterasu were only compared for the fact that both are hyped to "unevadable". Kirin should logically be faster as it travelled a much farther distance than Amaterasu did against Ei yet only a mental reaction from someone with Precognition could be acheived while Amaterasu was evaded at close-range by Ei.



> the same kamui that needed its speed to be doubled to avoid goudama that minato was able to use hirashin twice against



 It was a team effort and Gudodama aren't that fast to begin with. All that you're implying is that the whole team can perceive Gudodama and as long as Minato can do that, he can process the Gudodama's location, create a mental thought, and react to it instantaneously with Hiraishin which activating it is much much faster than interdimensional travel, and even then, Obito's Kamui Warp was severely outclassed due to Kakashi's Kamui giving away what they were intending to do which made it easier for Juubidara to counter, so Minato should easily have no problem warping the Gudodama with Hiraishin.

 Because let's face it, everyone can perceive Gudodamas because they're literally the slowest thing a Juubi Jin can use. 



> yh if itachi can react to 7th gate gai everyone on this thread does so



 We never claimed he could. Quite the opposite actually as he can't perceive his speed before he punches him in. 

 But knowing Itachi, he'd use Susano'o before 7th Gate Gai begins to move, but he can't create a mental thought in reaction to Gai's speed, only in response to Gai preparing his Gates.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

So Amaterasu is hyped as unavoidable yet minato got the reactions to lol avoid it . A a slower ninja had no issues avoiding it 

Kirin isn't faster than Amaterasu . All sasuke said is It can't be avoided like Amaterasu . Despite Amaterasu being a fodder jutsu to minato 

Guodama aren't that fast ? So why did Kamui speed need to be doubled ? If I may ask ? Are u saying Kakashi kamui is slow ? The same Kakashi that could wrap gedo arm off before it could be summoned to madara 



If itachi can create susanoo before Gai begins to move then Nagato can ST , minato can flick a kunai , Kakashi can kamui wrap himself etc 

How is itachi creating susanoo faster than these guys doing what I just mentioned above 

Since when could susanoo be used qhicker than ST ?


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So Amaterasu is hyped as unavoidable yet minato got the reactions to lol avoid it . A a slower ninja had no issues avoiding it



 Actually, Minato only has the mental reactions to evade it. Amaterasu still travels faster than V2 Ei's Flicker which Minato could only mentally react to.



> Kirin isn't faster than Amaterasu . All sasuke said is It can't be avoided like Amaterasu . Despite Amaterasu being a fodder jutsu to minato



 It was never stated that Amaterasu travelled as fast as lightning and even then, Kirin was only reacted to at the last second whereas Hebi Sasuke outran Amaterasu for a while. Do you think Hebi Sasuke and Itachi can outrun Kirin for a while?



> Guodama aren't that fast ? So why did Kamui speed need to be doubled ? If I may ask ? Are u saying Kakashi kamui is slow ? The same Kakashi that could wrap gedo arm off before it could be summoned to madara



 Because interdimensional travel is slow for a technique that only requires a mental reaction. It's odd though as Bee and KCM Naruto couldn't even perceive Obito's warp as he appeared to have vanished whereas fighters such as Lee, Gaara, and Kakashi could all perceive Gudodama's speed effortlessly and that's while Kakashi's vision was already stated to be deteriorating in the Viz Manga.

 I'm not saying Interdimensional travel isn't slower than the speed of a Gudodama, but I don't think it's significantly slower as Obito did begin his warping phase after Juubidara initiated his attack as he could easily predicted what Obito had intended on doing thanks to Sage Sensing (sense Chakra build-up) and the fact that Kakashi's Kamui also gave it away.



> If itachi can create susanoo before Gai begins to move then Nagato can ST , minato can flick a kunai , Kakashi can kamui wrap himself etc



 Itachi would only be able to create Susano'o before Gai moves as it requires time to build-up the chakra used for Gates.



> How is itachi creating susanoo faster than these guys doing what I just mentioned above
> 
> Since when could susanoo be used qhicker than ST ?



 He formed Susano'o faster than Lightning.

 I never stated that Susano'o can be used quicker than ST, but it's shown to be nearly instantaneous.


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## Mercurial (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So Amaterasu is hyped as unavoidable yet minato got the reactions to lol avoid it . A a slower ninja had no issues avoiding it
> 
> Kirin isn't faster than Amaterasu . All sasuke said is It can't be avoided like Amaterasu . Despite Amaterasu being a fodder jutsu to minato
> 
> ...



Minato witnessed all the Gudodama vs Obito and Kakashi thing and still was sure that Kakashi (even after losing most of his vision) would have been able to warp the Gudodama, hence his long range Kamui being faster than the Gudodama.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

@raikiri. He could simply have meant which is what happened wrap guodama when he uses it to defend himself 
Seeing as it's not moving that says nothing about kamui being faster than omyotonic
Seeing that if it was Obito would have been able to wrap himself and wouldn't have needed Kakashi assistance 
Or kakashi would have been able to wrap him  without obito also wrapping himself to increase the speed


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

@narutoX28 
Considering itachi could form susanoo quicker than lightning how did kabuto hit him time and time again
Just wondering . Did itachi loose his edge or something

If we gonna attempt to use that to say itschi can defend against 7tj gate Gai but the likes of Nagato Kakashi obito and minato 

Basically can't react and die 

I wonder is kabuto faster than lightning ?

Ps : everyone mentioned here reacts to kirin while sipping tea 

Unless u think obito can't phase through kirin before it hits him


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## Mercurial (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @raikiri. He could simply have meant which is what happened wrap guodama when he uses it to defend himself
> Seeing as it's not moving that says nothing about kamui being faster than omyotonic
> Seeing that if it was Obito would have been able to wrap himself and wouldn't have needed Kakashi assistance
> Or kakashi would have been able to wrap him  without obito also wrapping himself to increase the speed



But it clearly shows the Gudodama used as projectile, not as a defense, and anyway if that wasn't the case either Minato or Kakashi would have probably said something like the fact that they were too fast.

Obito had to warp himself which is something slower than his touch/warp Kamui which is slower than Kakashi's long range Kamui warp. Yeah following Minato's reasoning (who Kakashi didn't context) and feats like the Gedo Mazo warped mid summoning I don't think that's flawed at all, just Kishimoto wanted to make a team effort for the sake of it.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

If it makes U happy raikri19 
However Kakashi didn't just kamui wrap obito before guodama hit . Obito wrapped himself as well 
And juudara stated that doubled the speed or kamui which allowed obito to get to naruto 

U can't ignore that Cuz it bugs U 

It's what happened 

Any feats of kakahi wrapping a guodama projectile ? If it was so slow why couldn't kakahsi just kamui wrap obito while guodama was mid flight.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @narutoX28
> Considering itachi could form susanoo quicker than lightning how did kabuto hit him time and time again
> Just wondering . Did itachi loose his edge or something



 Because he protected Sasuke as Kabuto was stated to be aiming for Sasuke as well as the fact that Itachi allowed himself to take hits to prepare Izanagi as he is an Edo Tensei



> If we gonna attempt to use that to say itschi can defend against 7tj gate Gai but the likes of Nagato Kakashi obito and minato



 Where is Minato going to warp to? The moment he does, Gai swiftly moves to his location and punches his head off and Minato simply can't do anything about it as he can't perform a mental thought in response to Gai's speed.

 Kakashi and Nagato can react to Gai preparing his Gates, but cannot perform a mental thought the moment that Gai moves.



> Basically can't react and die
> 
> I wonder is kabuto faster than lightning ?



 No and Itachi displayed that he can physically react to SM Kabuto, so your argument isn't going to work here.



> Ps : everyone mentioned here reacts to kirin while sipping tea
> 
> Unless u think obito can't phase through kirin before it hits him



 Obito can as he has Precognition and the fact that he simply could Phase before Sasuke guides Kirin.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

I'll start with where minato wraps to . 
He does what he did against A . He lets go and wraps behind a full speed moving Gai . Now I ask how does Gai instantly adjust his movement to intercept ?

Itachi also displayed he can be bisected by kabuto . Let's not forget that 

Ps: while gai is amping to 7th gate can't minato who knows of gates spread a bunch of kunai . It then becomes how does Gai figure out where minato will appear 

A tried it and laughably failed

It's odd how his precog didn't help him against minato who hit him twice . Just saying . 

Scans of Young obito being weaker than Ms obito who fought Konan? 

I agree with u in some ways 

Not like they can react to Kirin when it begins moving but before which means Kirin won't be touching anyone here 

Same for Gai . All their techniques are instant activations and will be quicker then Gai moving from point A to B 

Gai reaction +movement cannot be quicker than them just reacting


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

> I'll start with where minato wraps to .
> He does what he did against A . He lets go and wraps behind a full speed moving Gai . Now I ask how does Gai instantly adjust his movement to intercept ?



He could warp only at point-blank range against someone who is many times slower than 7 Gate Gai. 7 Gate Gai takes his head off before he can mentaly react and teleport away. 

You see, you are talking about my opinion as being bias, when i am talking facts. But the one who's opinion is "BS" is you. *You are talking the same thing, which was countered many times, again, and again, and again*.

But anyway, let me speak facts again. Edo Minato, while not being as fast as his alive counterpart (since Hokage's werent ressurrected with their full power), activated Sage Mode. Thus, he probably became as fast as his alive counterpart, since alive Minato never, ever, used Sage Mode in battle. After that, we can see Minato's attack, with which he got help from Gaara and Kakashi. 

Juubidara wasnt surprised, wasnt impressed, he easily took off his hand as if Minato is a fodder and kicked him few times. If Minato is so fast, he could teleport away before Juubidara can chop off his hand and kick him in the chest. But he didnt. Why? Because his brain wasnt fast enough to react to Juubidara's moves. 

After Gai activated 7 Gate, he surprised Juubidara with his speed, pressurred him without getting hit and made Juubidara making that fear face expression when he used Hirudora.

So, who's Minato in front of 7 Gate Gai? That's right - a fodder. Alive Minato is a fodder compared to 7 Gate Gai. He cant mentaly react to 7 Gate Gai's moves and teleport away, because 7 Gate Gai is way too fast for him.



> Itachi also displayed he can be bisected by kabuto . Let's not forget that



Yeah, when he is an Edo, thus dont care at all about his wounds and wants to protect his own brother with his Susanoo.



> Ps: while gai is amping to 7th gate can't minato who knows of gates spread a bunch of kunai . It then becomes how does Gai figure out where minato will appear



Minato wont teleport away because his brain cant react to that kind of speed.



> Scans of Young obito being weaker than Ms obito who fought Konan?



There was a very little time period between Fourth Shinobi World War and a fight with Konan. Less than a year, i think.

So we pretty much can put Rinnegan Obito and MS Obito at the same speed level, because Rinnegan does not give any kind of precognition.

Rinnegan Obito fought Gai, Kakashi and someone who was faster than Minato - KCM Naruto - at the same time. Why KCM Naruto is faster than Minato? Because of better feats. He outpaced prime Raikage Ei's V2 using his Shunshin when Minato had to rely on space-time ninjutsu in order to dodge a slower Ei.

It is pretty obvious that Obito improved drastically since his last fight with Minato.



> Same for Gai . All their techniques are instant activations and will be quicker then Gai moving from point A to B



Wrong. 7 Gate Gai is so fast their brains cant react to that kind of speed. 7 Gate Gai can kill aither Nagato, or Minato before aither of them can think about dodging, or countering Gai.



> Not like they can react to Kirin when it begins moving but before which means Kirin won't be touching anyone here



Itachi reacted to Kirin moving at him thanks to MS and used Susanoo to protect himself. But neither Minato, nor Nagato, not Kakashi has any feats comparable to that.



> Gai reaction +movement cannot be quicker than them just reacting



Their reaction is slower than 7 Gate Gai's movements.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He could warp only at point-blank range against someone who is many times slower than 7 Gate Gai. 7 Gate Gai takes his head off before he can mentaly react and teleport away.



lol or could be timming to avoid A who then was caught completely off guard and didn't have time to stop himself

1)let me ask you can A shunshin and blitz obito before obito can kamui wrap himself?

2)can A shunshin blitz an object before kakashi can kamui wrap it?

3)can A shunshin blitz obito before kakashi and obito use kamui on obito?

I ask because minato reactions allowed him to stop something that did 1 and 2 



> You see, you are talking about my opinion as being bias, when i am talking facts. But the one who's opinion is "BS" is you. *You are talking the same thing, which was countered many times, again, and again, and again*.



lol ok. your funny



> But anyway, let me speak facts again. Edo Minato, while not being as fast as his alive counterpart (since Hokage's werent ressurrected with their full power), activated Sage Mode. Thus, he probably became as fast as his alive counterpart, since alive Minato never, ever, used Sage Mode in battle. After that, we can see Minato's attack, with which he got help from Gaara and Kakashi.



if gai is so fast in 7th gate why did his faster than any other punch get slapped with the same ease as minato attack?



> Juubidara wasnt surprised, wasnt impressed, he easily took off his hand as if Minato is a fodder and kicked him few times. If Minato is so fast, he could teleport away before Juubidara can chop off his hand and kick him in the chest. But he didnt. Why? Because his brain wasnt fast enough to react to Juubidara's moves.



see above



> After Gai activated 7 Gate, he surprised Juubidara with his speed, pressurred him without getting hit and made Juubidara making that fear face expression when he used Hirudora.



lol he was so scared he decided to swing down and troll. oh that fear 




> So, who's Minato in front of 7 Gate Gai? That's right - a fodder. Alive Minato is a fodder compared to 7 Gate Gai. He cant mentaly react to 7 Gate Gai's moves and teleport away, because 7 Gate Gai is way too fast for him.



 suure thing. imma put u back on that list. 



> Yeah, when he is an Edo, thus dont care at all about his wounds and wants to protect his own brother with his Susanoo.



still reactions to teleport something that took 2 kamui's



> Minato wont teleport away because his brain cant react to that kind of speed.



so let me ask you this how can minato react to omyoton and before u try and attempt to say its slow if it was much slower than 7th gate gai 

WHY ON FUCKING GODS EARTH  WOULD JUUDARA USE THAT AGAINST 8TH GATE GAI WHO IS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WAIT FOR IT>>>>>>>>7TH GATE GAI

so juudara uses something slower than 7th gate gai to attack an 8th gate version of gai. do u understand how stupid that makes you and kishi sound if that were the case




> There was a very little time period between Fourth Shinobi World War and a fight with Konan. Less than a year, i think.



good for u



> So we pretty much can put Rinnegan Obito and MS Obito at the same speed level, because Rinnegan does not give any kind of precognition.



rinnegan obito will be stronger due to rinnegan kabuto cleary said that's what worried him not his MS


> Rinnegan Obito fought Gai, Kakashi and someone who was faster than Minato - KCM Naruto - at the same time. Why KCM Naruto is faster than Minato? Because of better feats. He outpaced prime Raikage Ei's V2 using his Shunshin when Minato had to rely on space-time ninjutsu in order to dodge a slower Ei.



lol DB written by kishi and people who know far more about Naruto than u

disagree. KCM Naruto isn't faster than minato. feel free to read Raiton chakra mode entry 




> It is pretty obvious that Obito improved drastically since his last fight with Minato.



so obvious kishi doesn't care to mention it. yet mentions it 

for Naruto, sasuke, kakash, jiraiya, tsuande, orochimaru, onoki, 

but not obito why does he have some secrete obito hate?




> Wrong. 7 Gate Gai is so fast their brains cant react to that kind of speed. 7 Gate Gai can kill aither Nagato, or Minato before aither of them can think about dodging, or countering Gai


.

if it makes u happy. I guess 7th gate gai is faster than omyoton. but if so why use it against 8th gate gai. did juudara go full on stupid?



> Itachi reacted to Kirin moving at him thanks to MS and used Susanoo to protect himself. But neither Minato, nor Nagato, not Kakashi has any feats comparable to that.



lol so itachi got better reactions than kakashi now

 you mean the kakashi who kamui wrapped BM Naruto moving at full speed to attack obito. that kakashi?

or u mean the kakashi who could kamui gedo mazo before it could be summoned to madara



> Their reaction is slower than 7 Gate Gai's movements.



again omyoton or 7th gate gai which is faster

if 7th gate gai. why use it against 8th gate gai 

its like me saying I know you can dodge 1000mph while not being all out 

but then I decide to use that to attack you while you are going all out and I am hoping it hits you 

you realize why that wont work right


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I'll start with where minato wraps to .
> He does what he did against A . He lets go and wraps behind a full speed moving Gai . Now I ask how does Gai instantly adjust his movement to intercept ?



 He's more reflexive and is capable of defending against blindside attacks such as what he did against Rinnegan Obito, so he certainly can either block Minato's strike or keep dashing forward.



> Itachi also displayed he can be bisected by kabuto . Let's not forget that



 He purposely allowed that to happen. There were no exclamation marks indicating that he perceived his movement as well as the fact that he was taking advantage of his Edo Tensei Body to prepare Izanagi as efficiently as possible.



> Ps: while gai is amping to 7th gate can't minato who knows of gates spread a bunch of kunai . It then becomes how does Gai figure out where minato will appear



 He could, but Minato doesn't warp to a location unless he's responding to his opponent's speed as shown against Young Ei as he prepared to warp the moment his opponent attacks as to leave them in a more vulnerable position. Unfortunately, we've seen that he can't jump out of Juubidara's attacks and 7th Gate Gai has comparable reflexes, so he simply can't evade his speed with Hiraishin.



> A tried it and laughably failed



 Except he perceived that he would warp above him even after utilizing his Flicker. The 2nd time, he indicated that as long as he anticipates where he warps, he can react with his full speed, hence why Minato relied on subduing Young Bee.



> It's odd how his precog didn't help him against minato who hit him twice . Just saying .



 It actually helped him grab him twice. He simply didn't believe he would warp to the Kunai above him and Precognition doesn't aid someone when that person is literally out of their line of sight.



> Scans of Young obito being weaker than Ms obito who fought Konan?



 There doesn't need to be scans. It's common sense and the fact that MS Obito would naturally gather experience as he never reached his prime at the age of 14.




> Not like they can react to Kirin when it begins moving but before which means Kirin won't be touching anyone here



 Sure they can, but it makes whatever they're doing even more predictable barring Obito as his phasing ability can only be detected through Sensing (as his chakra signature disappears through travelling through a dimensional void).



> Same for Gai . All their techniques are instant activations and will be quicker then Gai moving from point A to B
> 
> Gai reaction +movement cannot be quicker than them just reacting



 Minato's Hiraishin wouldn't as he'd simply be warping to another location without a viable defense against Gai's speed.

 Obito can certainly phase in response and Nagato can certainly use Shinra Tensei, but he simply uses it as a defense for the most part in response to one's attack and Gai can simply counter the attack with chakra build-up through his feet as he has knowledge on the So6P Dojutsu techniques.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He's more reflexive and is capable of defending against blindside attacks such as what he did against Rinnegan Obito, so he certainly can either block Minato's strike or keep dashing forward.



so ur implying, base gai got better reflexes than V2 A? really 

also how is countering obito rear attack when gai knows where he is the same as minato just appearing behind you

since when was obito as fast as minato

remember when you said V2 A is physically much faster than minato since he crossed a huge distance before minato could flick a kunai. well minato did catch Naruto before obito could stab Naruto who was right next to him 



> He purposely allowed that to happen. There were no exclamation marks indicating that he perceived his movement as well as the fact that he was taking advantage of his Edo Tensei Body to prepare Izanagi as efficiently as possible.



yet calls out to sasuke to save him right after being split in half. sure 



> He could, but Minato doesn't warp to a location unless he's responding to his opponent's speed as shown against Young Ei as he prepared to warp the moment his opponent attacks as to leave them in a more vulnerable position. Unfortunately, we've seen that he can't jump out of Juubidara's attacks and 7th Gate Gai has comparable reflexes, so he simply can't evade his speed with Hiraishin.



really so how did minato use hirashin twice against goudama, which was too fast for a singular kamui to evade it. also if we wanna try say goudama is slow why on earth would juudara attempt using such to attack 8th gate gai. what would be the point 

juudara and 7th gate gai have nothing in common as far as reflexes are concerned. why couldn't gai react to juudara blocking his hirudora then? since u know gai reflexes are comparable 



> Except he perceived that he would warp above him even after utilizing his Flicker. The 2nd time, he indicated that as long as he anticipates where he warps, he can react with his full speed, hence why Minato relied on subduing Young Bee.



really I guess that's why he was ready to counter minato. oh wait he wasn't at all 

lol and how did that go for him. 

 minato didn't rely on tagging bee. he simply moved to bee who he had tagged. 

if A could track every kunai and hit him before he can jump again. why coulnt A follow minato movement when he wrapped to bee?

why because he didn't see the mark?

if so explain to me how A in the middle of all the marks somehow has 360 degree vision and can see every mark minato has. considering he doesn't have byakugan obviously a good portion of the kunai would be out of his LOS. 

So A theory was and is and has always been pure BS



> It actually helped him grab him twice. He simply didn't believe he would warp to the Kunai above him and Precognition doesn't aid someone when that person is literally out of their line of sight.



ok 2 pointless grabs vs. rasengan, kunai to the chest and loosing kyuubi 

good so out of LOS means minato got a shot at hitting you. So explain again how A theory even made sense 




> There doesn't need to be scans. It's common sense and the fact that MS Obito would naturally gather experience as he never reached his prime at the age of 14.




so no scans. how are u sure he didn't reach his prime? not like MS techniques need to be used more than 3 times to master the dam thing. so again prove he wasn't at his prime 




> Sure they can, but it makes whatever they're doing even more predictable barring Obito as his phasing ability can only be detected through Sensing (as his chakra signature disappears through travelling through a dimensional void).



agreed. 



> Minato's Hiraishin wouldn't as he'd simply be warping to another location without a viable defense against Gai's speed.



his defence is gai cant catch him 

someone who can use hirashin twice before gai (who btw had no reason to slow down in 8th gate)

isn't getting caught by 7th gate gai. 



> Obito can certainly phase in response and Nagato can certainly use Shinra Tensei, but he simply uses it as a defense for the most part in response to one's attack and Gai can simply counter the attack with chakra build-up through his feet as he has knowledge on the So6P Dojutsu techniques.




hhaaha scans of chakra build up working. please, if so then I can say everyone can simply use chakra build up to counter ST. everyone with knowledge that is 


defensive ST or not. 7th gate gai is sent flying and breaks everything


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## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

> lol or could be timming to avoid A who then was caught completely off guard and didn't have time to stop himself
> 
> 1)let me ask you can A shunshin and blitz obito before obito can kamui wrap himself?
> 
> ...



Such a smart move to risk and wait until the deadline against someone who is also very fast and can knock you out with 1 hit. 

1) Nope.

2) Nope.

3) Nope.

But how does that prove anything in our debate?

Obito's Kamui warp became faster. His fight with Gai, Kakashi and someone who is faster than Minato at once + recent Hussain's proof from Databook proves that. MS Shippuden Obito is very well above his young counterpart. 

And, of course, 7 Gate Gai is way faster than anyone whom Minato faced. And his movements are too fast for Minato to react and teleport away. Sage Mode Edo Minato couldnt teleport away before getting his arm chopped off and receiving few kicks from Juubidara. 7 Gate Gai, well, you know what he has done.

7 Gate Gai kills Minato, effortlessly.



> lol ok. your funny



At least i am not talking the same thing, which was countered in debates many times, all over again.



> if gai is so fast in 7th gate why did his faster than any other punch get slapped with the same ease as minato attack?



We discussed that before. If you want me to bring those arguements i brought before again - i will.  And no - not with the same ease. 



> see above



See the things i wrote about that "fastest punch" thing in another thread. If you want us to discuss that thing here - we can do it.



> lol he was so scared he decided to swing down and troll. oh that fear



There is no proof that he was trolling. And i already explained why, in another thread.

And that was a protecting move. Juubidara's face expression showed fear and unwillingness to be hit by Hirudora again.



> suure thing. imma put u back on that list.



Do whatever you want - you are losing a debate anyway.



> still reactions to teleport something that took 2 kamui's



if you are talking about Gudoudama's again, then there are planty of people who reacted to them. No a veyr big deal. And he did that with other's help, as i remember.



> so let me ask you this how can minato react to omyoton and before u try and attempt to say its slow if it was much slower than 7th gate gai
> 
> WHY ON FUCKING GODS EARTH WOULD JUUDARA USE THAT AGAINST 8TH GATE GAI WHO IS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WAIT FOR IT>>>>>>>>7TH GATE GAI
> 
> so juudara uses something slower than 7th gate gai to attack an 8th gate version of gai. do u understand how stupid that makes you and kishi sound if that were the case



Distance. 8 Gate Gai was in a long distance with Juubidara. 7 Gate Gai was in a close distance with him. A long distance was the reason why Juubidara could block EE's first step. Because in order to hit Juubidara, Gai had to get closer to him. 7 Gate Gai didnt need to get closer to Juubidara - he was already close to him. I explained that before. 

And by the way, dont you think that Juubidara could use Gudoudama better than Juubito? 



> rinnegan obito will be stronger due to rinnegan kabuto cleary said that's what worried him not his MS



Rinnegan does not affect movement speed, or reaction speed and does not give any kind of precognition - it gives lots of abilities, good vision and that's all. That's why Rinnegan Obito was stronger than MS Obito. But Rinnegan Obito was as fast as MS Obito.



> lol DB written by kishi and people who know far more about Naruto than u
> 
> disagree. KCM Naruto isn't faster than minato. feel free to read Raiton chakra mode entry



Minato, a shinobi who uses Shunshin very often, had to rely on teleportation jutsu when he faced young Ei. KCM Naruto outran Raikage Ei's fastest punch with a Shunshin. KCM Naruto is clearly faster than Minato.

But i'll wait for Databook statements. Maybe there are any Databook statements that proves base Minato was faster than KCM Naruto. I'll wait for you to provide them.



> so obvious kishi doesn't care to mention it. yet mentions it
> 
> for Naruto, sasuke, kakash, jiraiya, tsuande, orochimaru, onoki,
> 
> but not obito why does he have some secrete obito hate?



Not long ago, Hussain provided a proof that Obito's Kamui phase is automatic. When young Obito fought with Minato, his kamui phase wasnt fast enough to react to Minato's attack from behind. Adult Obito fought Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto, who is faster than base Minato, at once and did very well, without getting hit for a long time period. 

Obvious fact - adult obito is above young Obito.



> if it makes u happy. I guess 7th gate gai is faster than omyoton. but if so why use it against 8th gate gai. did juudara go full on stupid?



I already explained that "omyoton" situation. Juubito wasnt trolling with Gai, at all.



> lol so itachi got better reactions than kakashi now
> 
> you mean the kakashi who kamui wrapped BM Naruto moving at full speed to attack obito. that kakashi?
> 
> or u mean the kakashi who could kamui gedo mazo before it could be summoned to madara



Reaction speed, combined with MS's precognition and insane Susanoo activation speed. Those lightnings were moving so fast they hit the ground from the sky for 1/1000 of a second. Show me anything Kakashi has done that is comparable to Itachi's Kirin feat.



> again omyoton or 7th gate gai which is faster
> 
> if 7th gate gai. why use it against 8th gate gai
> 
> ...



Because 8 Gate Gai was at a greater distance then 7 Gate Gai which gave Juubidara an opportunity to block EE's first step.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

goudama is faster than 7th gate gai, regardless of the distance juudara wont use something slower than 7th gate gai to fight 8th gate gai that would be absolutely retarded it would never hit gai juudara would know that

also I brought up A being unable to blitz kakashi or obito using kamui to say. minato reacted and use hirashin twice to something that could, 

therefore the barely reacting to A goes right out the window and looks a lot more like he planned to have A come that close to him


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## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> goudama is faster than 7th gate gai, regardless of the distance juudara wont use something slower than 7th gate gai to fight 8th gate gai that would be absolutely retarded it would never hit gai juudara would know that
> 
> also I brought up A being unable to blitz kakashi or obito using kamui to say. minato reacted and use hirashin twice to something that could,
> 
> therefore the barely reacting to A goes right out the window and looks a lot more like he planned to have A come that close to him



Gudoudama was the only way Juubidara could protect himself. So he had no choice but to use it. Plus, the distance does matter. While 8 gate Gai was getting close to him, Juubidara had time to prepare Gudoudama for protection. 7 Gate Gai was in a close range with him. 

Numerous characters reacted to Gudoudama. It is not a very big deal. And by the way, Obito could make himself intangible in order to dodge Gudoudama. Gudoudama cant blitz Obito, or Kakashi. Because Obito can phase, and Kakashi can warp it away. 

Obito wanted to transport Naruto into another demention, but it was very hard, because Juubidara could strike at Obito while he was transporting Naruto, since Kamui warp requires materialisation. And by the way, Obito himself admitted that Kamui warp attempt was too slow because he was careless. 

Minato doesnt have feats to say he can teleport away from 7 Gate Gai. His Gudoudama feats are pathetic compare to what 7 Gate Gai could do. In fact, the difference in their level was shown when Juubidara effortlessly blitzed SM Edo Minato, who couldnt teleport away before getting dominated, but havent blitzed 7 Gate Gai and was surprised by his speed.

And as for Ei - as i said before, Gudoduama cant blitz Obito, or Kakashi and reacting to it is not a very big deal. Many chaarcters did that. v2 Ei indeed gave Minato some trouble. That's why he dodged only when Ei was so close. And he used FTG, instead of Shunshin, because of Ei's speed.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so ur implying, base gai got better reflexes than V2 A? really
> 
> also how is countering obito rear attack when gai knows where he is the same as minato just appearing behind you



 No, I didn't, but 7th Gate Gai is far more reflexive than Minato and considering Base Gai managed to intercept War Arc Obito's blindside attempts while having his back turned, he should have no problem reacting to someone less reflexive. 



> since when was obito as fast as minato



 Since when wasn't he? He can effectively counter-attack KCM Naruto and managed to pressure KCM Naruto continuously even with Kakashi's aid. Countering Rinnegan Obito's Phasing ability and striking before Obito can even initiate a counter-attack through his Kamui Mastery implies Base Gai is very reflexive, enough to counter Minato's attacks, so 7th Gate Gai should have no problem doing the same.




> remember when you said V2 A is physically much faster than minato since he crossed a huge distance before minato could flick a kunai. well minato did catch Naruto before obito could stab Naruto who was right next to him



 Juubito's Gudodama isn't that fast considering EMS Sasuke travelled fast enough to intercept it with Susano'o.

 And guess what feats you're using here? KCM Minato's, so what you're presenting is useless as V2 Ei was physically faster than Base Minato.




> yet calls out to sasuke to save him right after being split in half. sure



 Guess why he was split in half?

 Because he formed a seal to prepare Izanagi. Now tell me, why was Sasuke surprised by Itachi being cut in half while Itachi displays no such reaction? Furthermore, what's silly is that Itachi called out to Sasuke knowing full well that he would throw the blade and thus, finish the loop needed to activate Izanagi, so in reality, what Itachi did played right into his hands and allowed him to perform the bushin feint needed for Izanagi. Itachi was attempting to finish things as smoothly as possible and taking advantage of his Edo Tensei body allowed him to do just that.





> really so how did minato use hirashin twice against goudama, which was too fast for a singular kamui to evade it. also if we wanna try say goudama is slow why on earth would juudara attempt using such to attack 8th gate gai. what would be the point



 Guess what? Everyone could perform a mental thought to a Gudodama as they can perceive it's movement. If that wasn't the case, then both Kakashi and Obito who's reflexes diminished based on lack of chakra, fatigue, and vision deteroriation still managed to perform a mental thought, hence why they could react with any form of Kamui in the first place. It's not as fast as what you're claiming it to be.

 Juubidara only managed to form and react with Gudodamas as 8th Gate Gai was at a much farther distance hence why he could launch a Gudodama in the first place. It was heavily implied that 8th Gate Gai could easily evade it, but it would mean him having to outmaneuvor Juubidara again in order to perform his Evening Elephant and while having the 8 Gates opened, that was simply not an option.

 But still, as everyone in that area could perceive it's movements, then a simple mental thought it would not be difficult to perform in response to a Gudodama, so Minato is no special snowflake.



> juudara and 7th gate gai have nothing in common as far as reflexes are concerned. why couldn't gai react to juudara blocking his hirudora then? since u know gai reflexes are comparable



 Because 7th Gate Gai performed a seal which gave Juubidara an opportunity to react, but in terms of Taijutsu and reflexes, Juubidara was outclassed as Gai not only overwhelmed Juubidara to the point of backing him to a corner, but he also had to evade hitting Juubidara's Gudodama and he did so with superb precision. That places his reflexes on par with Juubidara's at the very least.




> really I guess that's why he was ready to counter minato. oh wait he wasn't at all
> 
> lol and how did that go for him.
> 
> ...



 He couldn't counter Minato as he was recovering from his Flicker speed, so his blindspot was exposed. Young Bee still extended his tentacle and reacted faster than Minato did regardless.

 And guess what? Minato failed to strike Young Bee before Young Bee could even react.

 Ei didn't anticipate Minato tagging Bee, but he clearly noticed the Kunai that Minato laid out. 



> if so explain to me how A in the middle of all the marks somehow has 360 degree vision and can see every mark minato has. considering he doesn't have byakugan obviously a good portion of the kunai would be out of his LOS.



 That's a fairly good point and we have to chalk that up to Ei simply being more capable of reacting to Minato's warp and utilize his full speed in response to that before Minato can even adjust his position and perform a reaction in response to Ei's reaction.




> ok 2 pointless grabs vs. rasengan, kunai to the chest and loosing kyuubi
> 
> good so out of LOS means minato got a shot at hitting you. So explain again how A theory even made sense



 Ei anticipated where Minato warped to whereas Obito didn't anticipate Minato would warp to the Kunai thrown and use it as an offensive maneuvor as every instance Minato used Hiraishin was for defensive purposes. He even had a Kunai laid back at his position prior to running at Obito, so Obito likely believed that he would warp at that exact spot and not only that, Obito was pressured due to needing to maintain control over Kurama which caused him to make mistakes he normally would not have made.

 Not that it matters. Minato outright stated to Naruto prior to redoing the Four Symbols Seal that Obito saw through everything Minato had done, so clearly Minato believed Obito was a threat and was close to his level. Minato's words, not mine. I'll even gladly present the scan if you're interested.





> so no scans. how are u sure he didn't reach his prime? not like MS techniques need to be used more than 3 times to master the dam thing. so again prove he wasn't at his prime



 They actually do, hence why Kakashi gained mastery over Kamui as Shippuden progressed.

 You're serious are you? You think somebody reaches their prime at the age of 14?



 So if I state that 9 yr old Minato = Adult Minato, would you suddenly believe me?




> agreed.



 Gracias.





> his defence is gai cant catch him
> 
> someone who can use hirashin twice before gai (who btw had no reason to slow down in 8th gate)
> 
> isn't getting caught by 7th gate gai.



 Gai did have a reason to slow down with 8th Gates as a Gudodama was hurtling towards him and wasn't certain how fast Minato would be able to perform his "tactic" in response to the Gudodama. 8th Gate Gai slowing down doesn't hinder his Evening Elephant as all his techniques rely on his strike speed, not his movement speed and his movement speed was deliberately used to outmaneuvor Juubidara's Gudodama, but we know Kakashi could simply warp a portion of it away making his maximum speed unecessary for the situation.





> hhaaha scans of chakra build up working. please, if so then I can say everyone can simply use chakra build up to counter ST. everyone with knowledge that is
> 
> 
> defensive ST or not. 7th gate gai is sent flying and breaks everything



 Nagato acknowledged that Tsunade's build-up of Chakra through the foot was used to counter his gravitational and repulsion forces. 

 7th Gate Gai would only be damaged by ST if he has no method of countering the acceleration caused by ST and he apparently does.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 9, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> No, I didn't, but 7th Gate Gai is far more reflexive than Minato and considering Base Gai managed to intercept War Arc Obito's blindside attempts while having his back turned, he should have no problem reacting to someone less reflexive.



gates don't increase reflexes unless u got DB statements or scans to that effect




> Since when wasn't he? He can effectively counter-attack KCM Naruto and managed to pressure KCM Naruto continuously even with Kakashi's aid. Countering Rinnegan Obito's Phasing ability and striking before Obito can even initiate a counter-attack through his Kamui Mastery implies Base Gai is very reflexive, enough to counter Minato's attacks, so 7th Gate Gai should have no problem doing the same.



or simply that base gai got better cqc skills and more physical speed than obito. who got no speed feats or hype to suggest he is fast. not like obito was physically blitzing kakashi in boxland. 



> Juubito's Gudodama isn't that fast considering EMS Sasuke travelled fast enough to intercept it with Susano'o.



talking about juuudara's though



> And guess what feats you're using here? KCM Minato's, so what you're presenting is useless as V2 Ei was physically faster than Base Minato.



odd he admitted to being slower though. just saying.....I got scans 




> Guess why he was split in half?



cuz he couldn't dodge. being split in half played no role in his plan



> Because he formed a seal to prepare Izanagi. Now tell me, why was Sasuke surprised by Itachi being cut in half while Itachi displays no such reaction? Furthermore, what's silly is that Itachi called out to Sasuke knowing full well that he would throw the blade and thus, finish the loop needed to activate Izanagi, so in reality, what Itachi did played right into his hands and allowed him to perform the bushin feint needed for Izanagi. Itachi was attempting to finish things as smoothly as possible and taking advantage of his Edo Tensei body allowed him to do just that


.

or he got split and sasuke saved him by throwing his sword. this whole imam control events like know sasuke would throw his sword out of the 100 different things he could have done is BS. what are the odds sasuke throws his sword. how many times has he done that?





> Guess what? Everyone could perform a mental thought to a Gudodama as they can perceive it's movement. If that wasn't the case, then both Kakashi and Obito who's reflexes diminished based on lack of chakra, fatigue, and vision deteroriation still managed to perform a mental thought, hence why they could react with any form of Kamui in the first place. It's not as fast as what you're claiming it to be.



but it required kamui speed be doubled. when fired at 70m. sure 

you mean obito who was amped by hachibi and shukaku... lack of stamina my ass. the guy had a 6th path staff. in anything his stamina was on point 




> Juubidara only managed to form and react with Gudodamas as 8th Gate Gai was at a much farther distance hence why he could launch a Gudodama in the first place. It was heavily implied that 8th Gate Gai could easily evade it, but it would mean him having to outmaneuvor Juubidara again in order to perform his Evening Elephant and while having the 8 Gates opened, that was simply not an option.



he also attacked wth them which minato intercepted. I knw 8th gate could evade it. my point is if it was obviously slower than 7th gate why use it against a much faster version of gai



> But still, as everyone in that area could perceive it's movements, then a simple mental thought it would not be difficult to perform in response to a Gudodama, so Minato is no special snowflake


.

sure everyone not being targeted by it could perceive it. interception feat buddy 

unless u want to say haku could perceive kakashi moving at zabuza twice therefore haku is faster than war arc kakashi

or the best one suigetsu could get to where he was to block A swinging down his arm. I guess suigetsu foot speed is quicker than A swinign down his arm

no difference between my examples and what u just mentioned 






> Because 7th Gate Gai performed a seal which gave Juubidara an opportunity to react, but in terms of Taijutsu and reflexes, Juubidara was outclassed as Gai not only overwhelmed Juubidara to the point of backing him to a corner, but he also had to evade hitting Juubidara's Gudodama and he did so with superb precision. That places his reflexes on par with Juubidara's at the very least.


 
lol suuuure. faster than any other punch blocked is all that happened there



> He couldn't counter Minato as he was recovering from his Flicker speed, so his blindspot was exposed. Young Bee still extended his tentacle and reacted faster than Minato did regardless.



interception feat explained above 



> And guess what? Minato failed to strike Young Bee before Young Bee could even react


.

so young bee reflexes>>>obito reflexes then. ok 



> Ei didn't anticipate Minato tagging Bee, but he clearly noticed the Kunai that Minato laid out.



go back to the scan and tell me how many kunai were out of A LOS. I count more than half of them




> That's a fairly good point and we have to chalk that up to Ei simply being more capable of reacting to Minato's warp and utilize his full speed in response to that before Minato can even adjust his position and perform a reaction in response to Ei's reaction.



which never really worked out for A. or A wont admit to being slower would he




> Ei anticipated where Minato warped to whereas Obito didn't anticipate Minato would warp to the Kunai thrown and use it as an offensive maneuvor as every instance Minato used Hiraishin was for defensive purposes. He even had a Kunai laid back at his position prior to running at Obito, so Obito likely believed that he would warp at that exact spot and not only that, Obito was pressured due to needing to maintain control over Kurama which caused him to make mistakes he normally would not have made.



 A anticipated it. really where cuz he seemed confused as hell when minato left his LOS twice. anticipation my ass

so that's obito problem. minato got kunai and can use more if 2 confuse obito imagine 30



> Not that it matters. Minato outright stated to Naruto prior to redoing the Four Symbols Seal that Obito saw through everything Minato had done, so clearly Minato believed Obito was a threat and was close to his level. Minato's words, not mine. I'll even gladly present the scan if you're interested.




oh so now u remember statements. thought u forgot all about them. and was more focused on feats. cant have it both ways. cuz based on feats obito had his ass handed to him

ill gladly scan A admitting to being slower so I don't know why u bring him up when he slower than minato




> They actually do, hence why Kakashi gained mastery over Kamui as Shippuden progressed.
> 
> You're serious are you? You think somebody reaches their prime at the age of 14?
> 
> ...



oh because rasengan and hirashin are genetic hand me down techs oh really

prove sasuke amaterasu got faster and ull have a point. 

kakashi kamu improving was stated on panel, where is obito panel statement of improving with the jutsu



> Gracias.



 de nada





> Gai did have a reason to slow down with 8th Gates as a Gudodama was hurtling towards him and wasn't certain how fast Minato would be able to perform his "tactic" in response to the Gudodama. 8th Gate Gai slowing down doesn't hinder his Evening Elephant as all his techniques rely on his strike speed, not his movement speed and his movement speed was deliberately used to outmaneuvor Juubidara's Gudodama, but we know Kakashi could simply warp a portion of it away making his maximum speed unecessary for the situation.



scans of gai saying he wants to slow down please. lol did he say he wasn't certain? I didn't get that

gai wasn't even in the team effort, he was busy beating up madara when minato came up with the plan. how he knew what they wanted to do is pure BS and fan fic. gai kept it going and they assisted properly, don't mean gai slowed down 






> Nagato acknowledged that Tsunade's build-up of Chakra through the foot was used to counter his gravitational and repulsion forces.
> 
> 7th Gate Gai would only be damaged by ST if he has no method of countering the acceleration caused by ST and he apparently does.



selective reading at its best  

he said do you think that would work against Me. 

lol so gai moves full speed and knows to gather chakra in his feet before doing that. 

sure when u got scans of chakra in feet working lemme know


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 9, 2015)

We will support gai. notice gai Is no where close, focused on his enemy therefore has no reason to slow down

slammed into the ground to create a crater himself

gaara sand slower than madara attacks. minato reply is ok am here to, kakashi got my kunai 

slammed into the ground to create a crater himself

we have already seen kakashi throw a kunai as fast as goudama already. so no surprises there

and yes every single ninja can throw a kunai faster than they can cover any distance

minato saying lee is ok in 6th gate. lee the one who throws the kunai in the end. vs kakashi who also had a kunai

slammed into the ground to create a crater himself

obvious reason here. considering minato who is far weaker than 6th gate lee physically can basically throw a kunai from point A to B quicker than Raikage can get there. (or minato wouldn't be faster)

it makes sense that lee can throw a kunai fast enough to intercept an attack coming at 8th gate gai. when we have seen faaaaaaaaaar slower opponents intercept attack before

the plan is in place, please notice what gai is doing. so again how on earth could he have known what they were planning

slammed into the ground to create a crater himself

ps: if someone is much faster than you. he is fast isn't all you would have to say

slammed into the ground to create a crater himself

and yes it makes sense for gai to slow down when he has juudara defenceless. suuure thing 

slammed into the ground to create a crater himself

lee, minato and the rest are out of gai LOS. minato screams hit him no matter what but somehow he slows down?

slammed into the ground to create a crater himself

lee looks a lot closer to me. and its an interception feat. no different from haku coming off as faster than kakashi etc


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## StarWanderer (Jul 9, 2015)

> We will support gai. notice gai Is no where close, focused on his enemy therefore has no reason to slow down



Yeah and wants to die before hitting Juubidara because of a truth-seeking ball protecting Juubidara. Sure thing.



> lee, minato and the rest are out of gai LOS. minato screams hit him no matter what but somehow he slows down?



How do you know that he couldnt hear Minato? 

By the way - dont you think it is a nonsense for non-amped Minato reacting to 8 Gate Gai's full speed, when SM Minato, with amped reaction speed couldnt react to Juubidara and teleport away before getting his arm chopped off?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jul 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> gates don't increase reflexes unless u got DB statements or scans to that effect



 It actually does. It significantly increases somebody's physical capabilities, so their reaction speed increases, however, * their ability to perceive movements remains the same. *





> or simply that base gai got better cqc skills and more physical speed than obito. who got no speed feats or hype to suggest he is fast. not like obito was physically blitzing kakashi in boxland.



 He was blitzing KCM Naruto despite Kakashi's Aid through clever Kamui usage and clever counter-attacks which do require high reflexes to perform effectively. If that wasn't the case, KCM Naruto wouldn't have struggled evading his attacks as much as he did.

 Obito's fight with Kakashi was apparently planned by Obito and from what I can recall, it was meant for Obito to remove any means Madara had of controlling him.





> talking about juuudara's though



 Yet their Gudodamas are exactly the same and function exactly the same regardless.





> odd he admitted to being slower though. just saying.....I got scans



 He admitted inferiority in speed because of Minato's FTG. 






> cuz he couldn't dodge. being split in half played no role in his plan



 It did as it shifted Kabuto's focus towards Sasuke.

.



> or he got split and sasuke saved him by throwing his sword. this whole imam control events like know sasuke would throw his sword out of the 100 different things he could have done is BS. what are the odds sasuke throws his sword. how many times has he done that?



 He planned the majority of his fight against Hebi Sasuke, managed to strike against Nagato with proper timing, and planned events in advance such as the Uchiha Massacre and the Awakening of his Mangekyo.

 What other things would Sasuke have been able to do if they're solely fighting to capture? All Sasuke used was mostly Partial Ribcage Susano'o, Chidori Eiso, and his Blade as means to capture Kabuto. He actually did begin his offense while using a Blade, so Itachi likely presumed he would do so as he deliberately created a seal to set the preparations for Izanagi. Stop ignoring this detail.




> but it required kamui speed be doubled. when fired at 70m. sure
> 
> you mean obito who was amped by hachibi and shukaku... lack of stamina my ass. the guy had a 6th path staff. in anything his stamina was on point



 You're not grasping my point. Obito could still initiate his Kamui Warp in response to the Gudodama's speed. It doesn't matter how fast his technique is. As long as they can perceive it's movement, they can replicate what Minato did with a jutsu nearly instantaneous such as Hiraishin or Obito's Phasing Ability as they can perform a mental thought in response to Juubidara's attack, so like I said before, Minato is no special snowflake.




> he also attacked wth them which minato intercepted. I knw 8th gate could evade it. my point is if it was obviously slower than 7th gate why use it against a much faster version of gai



 Minato only intercepted thanks to Lee's help. Furthermore, he used the Gudodama as a means to pressure Gai and stop his attack which was implied by Minato. Gai moving in a linear fashion at full speed practically leaves himself vulnerable to most projectiles Juubidara can launch at him and having to completely decelerate and change the direction of your motion diminishes the effectiveness of Gai's attack.

.


> sure everyone not being targeted by it could perceive it. interception feat buddy
> 
> unless u want to say haku could perceive kakashi moving at zabuza twice therefore haku is faster than war arc kakashi



 Haku could perceive Kakashi moving at Zabuza twice, so if he had a nearly instantaneous jutsu such as Shinra Tensei or Obito's phasing ability, he certainly would be able to react, but your point is moot as all of Haku's abilities rely on his reaction speed and his interception feat also involved him having to adjust his position as well relative to Kakashi's attack which makes it harder to defend agianst to begin with.



> or the best one suigetsu could get to where he was to block A swinging down his arm. I guess suigetsu foot speed is quicker than A swinign down his arm



 Suigetsu likely used Shunshin and initiated it in response to Ei's movement as that's the most logical reason for why he managed to intercept Ei's strike. Base Minato managed to intercept Obito's strike against Naruto with his Shunshin, same as Kurama's Strike who was admitted to be fast by SM Naruto, so it's not completely illogical.

 Ei also didn't move at full speed as his attack was intended to be a team effort with Darui as well as the fact that he wasn't even moving at full speed as C wasn't even shocked that they could react to him even though he admitted that not even the Sharingan can keep up with V1 Ei's movements. 





> lol suuuure. faster than any other punch blocked is all that happened there



 Still didn't refute what StarWanderer and I said. 





> interception feat explained above



 Interception bullshit refuted.

.


> so young bee reflexes>>>obito reflexes then. ok



 Obito could already perceive Minato's attempts at warping very quickly and could react to his strike speed easily regardless, so I'm not sure what your point is.





> go back to the scan and tell me how many kunai were out of A LOS. I count more than half of them



 His attention was directed towards all of the Kunai as shown here:

 slammed into the ground to create a crater himself

 And that's even indicated when he planned his attempt at striking Minato after his warp in advance, before his Shunshin.






> which never really worked out for A. or A wont admit to being slower would he



 No, he knew Minato could hardly physically react to Ei and Ei also knew that Minato had to adjust himself to react to his opponent after his warp. As long as Ei perceives where Minato warps before he can even adjust his position to respond to Ei's speed, then he has a chance of tagging him.





> A anticipated it. really where cuz he seemed confused as hell when minato left his LOS twice. anticipation my ass



 He was only confused once and that was already addressed.



> so that's obito problem. minato got kunai and can use more if 2 confuse obito imagine 30



 Then that would practically give away what Minato is trying to do and would force Obito to be more cautious as a result. 






> oh so now u remember statements. thought u forgot all about them. and was more focused on feats. cant have it both ways. cuz based on feats obito had his ass handed to him



 Yet Obito saw through everything Minato did, hence why Kurama was summoned in the first place.

 Sorry, but you can't ignore what Minato stated just based on the fact that you disagree with it and it refutes your argument. The whole entire context of Minato and Obito's fight was to portray him as a threat and also the mastermind behind the Akatsuki. Him seeing through mostly everything Minato had acted upon compliments that idea nicely.



> ill gladly scan A admitting to being slower so I don't know why u bring him up when he slower than minato



 All right, and I'll gladly show you the scan that says Base Raikage is as fast and reflexive as Minato.






> oh because rasengan and hirashin are genetic hand me down techs oh really



 Irrelevant to the discussion.



> prove sasuke amaterasu got faster and ull have a point.



 Amaterasu's improvements aren't solely based on speed as it's heavily dependant on how quickly one gathers chakra within the eye and releases it as well as how much chakra is released in the flames to begin with.

 Kamui also isn't entirely based on speed, but there are indications of improvements with Kamui such as Kakashi's ability to activate Kamui and the size of which he can warp objects which has been shown to make major strides. Why Obito cannot improve with his Kamui seems like a ridiculous notion considering Dojutsu is reflected by the chakra released in the brain. Obito's Chakra naturally developed even further thanks to the Sage Chakra of Madara's Rinnegan which eventually surged through his brain as he got accustomed to the Dojutsu. 



> kakashi kamu improving was stated on panel, where is obito panel statement of improving with the jutsu



 Kakashi's improvements weren't stated on panel. 

 Obito's improvements in Kamui doesn't need to be stated. He displayed effective usage of Kamui as he effectively avoided attacks from different angles and managed to counter-attack effectively as a result, something superior to what Young Obito has displayed.





> scans of gai saying he wants to slow down please. lol did he say he wasn't certain? I didn't get that



 So basically, when StarWander provides feats as to why this thinking is logical, you ignore it because you want statements, but when I bring Minato's statements about Obito perceiving everything Minato had done, you simply ignore it?

 Mmmkay.



> gai wasn't even in the team effort, he was busy beating up madara when minato came up with the plan. how he knew what they wanted to do is pure BS and fan fic. gai kept it going and they assisted properly, don't mean gai slowed down



 It actually does as everyone can't react to 8th Gate Gai's maximum speed if Juubidara struggled with reacting to it. 





> selective reading at its best
> 
> he said do you think that would work against Me.
> 
> ...



 slammed into the ground to create a crater himself

 No he didn't. He acknowledged it as a proper defense as he acknowledge Tsunade's knowledge on his technique. 

 Yes, because Gai actually has knowledge on Nagato's attack. Even if Nagato initiates ST before Gai builds chakra within his feet, he can still counter it by accumulating chakra within his feet to reduce the acceleration of the blast.

 Not only that, 6th Gate Gai was implied to be able to counter the Rinnegan's gravitational powers as he attempted Taijutsu against V2 Jin who were assumed to have that ability, so he would have to be properly equipped if that were the case.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

> obito reacted to minato strike speed



He did, at the start.



> if we using implications minato was still implied in Db4 as the fastest person with god like speed. so moot point



That Databook statement is nonsense according to manga. And it is said that he was praised as the fastest. There is no outright statement that he is the fastest shinobi of all time.



> cuz implications minato isnt loosing to gai speed



Minato loses to 7 Gate Gai's speed. SM Edo Minato was blitzed by Juubidara, yet we can see how good 7 Gate Gai was against Juubidara. 



> kakashi coudl kamui gedo arm before it was summoned to madara



Not very impressive.



> Goudama also hit obito when said kamui speed was doubled



Kamui absorbtion speed was doubled.



> saying minato can use hirashin twice against something like that is a small feat is a hilarious joke



That is a good reaction speed feat. But not good enough to say Minato can react to 7 gate Gai and teleport away. 



> considering the instant it touched him he had the reactions to get away to ensure it looses its effect



That's not true. A little amount of absorbtion time have passed before Minato could teleport away. 



> faster than any other punch, fastest punch, a punch like no other statement.



That was countered lots of times and your point got moot. We discussed that. Come on.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

> StarWanderer said:
> 
> 
> > He did, at the start.
> ...


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 11, 2015)

You all are underestimating Obito. He could go toe to toe with Minato when he was a kid. A older wiser battle hardened Obito who has no doubt killed hundreds if not thousands of people could beat Minato in my opinion.

Once Minato goes down he will also kill Nagato. Nagato on paper could soul %&%$ him a 100 times over. However he has the cheapest move in the verse and I could easily see him warping Nagato away despite him being on near god level.

Kakashi and Gai distract team Nagato so Obito can warp the others away. There is always the chance that Obito gets nicked by one of team Nagato but unlikely since kid obito could hold his own with Minato and kill hundreds of mist shinobi.

I also don't see how Itachi can kill Obito due to the same reasons as above.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> You all are underestimating Obito. He could go toe to toe with Minato when he was a kid. A older wiser battle hardened Obito who has no doubt killed hundreds if not thousands of people could beat Minato in my opinion.
> 
> Once Minato goes down he will also kill Nagato. Nagato on paper could soul %&%$ him a 100 times over. However he has the cheapest move in the verse and I could easily see him warping Nagato away despite him being on near god level.
> 
> ...



toe to toe. u mean he got beaten up then fled. I don't see how that is toe to toe. he didn't touch minato once, the real fight began 

1000 of people, why would he have killed 1000 of people. while lurking in the shadows and controlling akatsuki?

minato going down before obito is hilarious. but sure go on 

so obito can kill minato then nagato back to back. 

100's of mist shinobi  

they were less than 30. and that was btw before he faced minato which didn't help him at all..since minato kicked him to the curb with his tail between his legs 

itachi isn't killing obito. agreed but obito isn't going to wrap itachi while itachi susaoo camps. esp if he got hirashin support.


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## Icegaze (Jul 11, 2015)

btw if minato has knowledge. his main trick would be to get his kunai to boxland. so everytime obito phases he jumps there and murks obito

I don't see why a hirashin kuani in boxland cant be jumped to. now with support minato is very likely to get his kunai in box land before obito can do anything about it. 

btw kunai in box land= obito looses the fight and becomes useless. since everytime he phases minato jumps there and kills him


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## StarWanderer (Jul 11, 2015)

> u mean when minato didnt use hirashin while attacking. then yh sure he did. not like ive implied minato without hirashin cant be reacted to.
> 
> we have seen how it helped a fly like SM naruto hit juubito. so hirashin is just that. it propels you to god tier speed.



Minato can be reacted to, no matter does he use Hiraishin, or doesnt.

And in terms of striking speed, SM Naruto is >>>>>> Minato. Plus, Juubito was marked. And SM Naruto appeared behind his back, being in a very short range with Juubito.



> see above. hirashin= god tier speed. or do u think Sm naruto could ever blitz juubito if juubito begged him to



In terms of reflexes and striking speed, Minato is not even close to being the fastest non-Godlike.



> while attacking sure. i agree. however over covering any distance minato would laugh at gai chasing him



Juubidara was surprised about his speed. How in hell would laugh at 7 Gate Gai chasing him? He doesnt have reaction speed feats to say so.



> u are the only poster who finds ripping gedo mazo arm before it could be summoned as not very impressive. ive never seen such delusions



Because there was a time period between Jutsu activation and the summoning itself. kakashi even managed to say few words to Minato during that time period.



> i know. are u trying to make kamui absorption speed slow? not like minato hasnt already hit obito before he could phase. so not sure why u make the distinction



Kamui absorbtion and Kamui phase are different in terms of speed. And it was young Obito who is not as good as his adult counterpart. 



> only if u believe gai is more than twice as fast as goudama. which i really dont believe. as from 70m away he isnt going to stop obito from entering box land if obito and kakashi are using kamui to send obito away



Yes he is. Low-Gated Gai could save Kakashi from Gudoudama almost point-blank. 7 Gate Gai is a lot faster than that. 



> which still didnt affect minato.



Yeah that's true.



> i really would want the scan of the manga source u use. i want to read what it says where u read it. indulge me please



That doesnt matter right know, when Juubidara could very well swing right after Hirudora's air pressure was released.


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## thechickensage (Jul 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> btw if minato has knowledge. his main trick would be to get his kunai to boxland. so everytime obito phases he jumps there and murks obito
> 
> I don't see why a hirashin kuani in boxland cant be jumped to. now with support minato is very likely to get his kunai in box land before obito can do anything about it.
> 
> btw kunai in box land= obito looses the fight and becomes useless. since everytime he phases minato jumps there and kills him




Haha I never thought of that.  I assumed it was an invalid place to teleport, like onlthose eyes have access to that dimension.  But if !minato could teleport to kamuiland, then minato is barely going to break a sweat bringing adult obito down


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 12, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Haha I never thought of that.  I assumed it was an invalid place to teleport, like onlthose eyes have access to that dimension.  But if !minato could teleport to kamuiland, then minato is barely going to break a sweat bringing adult obito down



 He can't. It completely contradicts the fact that Kakashi's Kamui has access to Obito's dimension due to their S/T ninjutsu being connected. That, and it was implied that Minato would've lost had he been absorbed, so using that idea totally contradicts what's conveyed in the manga.


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## thechickensage (Jul 12, 2015)

KamuiLand is just another place right?  another set of 3 spatial dimensions tied to the same t=time?

Then what are hiraishin's requirements?


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## Icegaze (Jul 12, 2015)

@narutoX28
Minato can't jump in or out of box land without a link between both worlds 
I don't see why obito can jump to kaguya land but Minato can't jump in and out of obito

With no kunai in box land already he can't escape . No link between both worlds . But if he marks box land and his marks remain on the battlefield no reason to think he can't jump in and out


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