# Tobirama & Nagato vs Itachi & Minato



## Gibbs (Mar 10, 2015)

Alive Tobirama & Prime Nagato (fully healthy, full mobility)

vs

Alive Itachi (figure pre-skip health) & Minato (able to use Bijuu mode like Naruto did the first time Naruto unleashed it, Sage Mode remains as canon)


Location: Madara vs Bijuu
Intel: Manga
Prep: None (except Tobirama has 2 copies of Asuma Sarutobi for Edo Tensei)

Restrictions: Kotomatsukami, Izanami, Shiki Fujin, Frog Summons.
*Note: Minato is limited to whatever Bijuu Mode feats that Naruto had at his first (full Kurama avatar) and what Minato did himself)*

Who takes this?


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## Icegaze (Mar 10, 2015)

Tobirama and nagato win mostly due to nagato 
Also u didnt restrict ET for tobirama. 

Minato can then only use KCM . Which doesnt do much for him here. Actually does nothing for him. 

tobirama takes itachi out with his explosive tag jutsu. he gets marks close to itachi and teleports asuma ET's close to itachi. itachi wont be able to escape it and camping in susanoo would kill him. since the explosions apparently never end 


Nagato is more than enough for minato. Itachi sadly is the weakest link here. All his jutsu are rendered useless by his opponents. Minato trying to save itachi would be his downfall


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 10, 2015)

Tobirama or Nagato can stall Minato long enough for either of them to dispatch Itachi. Will soon be 2v1 which Minato can not overcome


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## sabre320 (Mar 10, 2015)

if minato has bm they win in kcm he has a good chance with multiple kcm clones n base he cant win with itachi as his partner


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## Trojan (Mar 10, 2015)

BM Minato fodderstompped both of them.

@sabre320

Itachi won't be half bad. Minato can simply give him Chakra Cloak, and that means Tobirama is completely useless here because the Cloak will protect
itachi from anything he has to offer. Itachi won't have any problem with the chakra as well, and his jutsus would be much stronger as well.

Even the ET can be controlled via Genjutsu if I am not mistaken... 



> tobirama takes itachi out with his explosive tag jutsu. he gets marks close to itachi and teleports asuma ET's close to itachi. itachi wont be able to escape it and camping in susanoo would kill him. since the explosions apparently never end



Or Minato can save itachi with his superior FTG. 
lol, the explosions have ended obviously after a while...


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 10, 2015)

If minato has the bijuu mode avatar then he and itachi overpowers team one
If he does not then team 1 overpowers team 2

A BM avatar that can teleport is too much for nagato(his chibaku tensei would be trolled by teleportation/bijuudama's and yasaka magatama) and tobirama(lacks the offense to get past it and get minato). Without that however nagato would deal with itachi(deva path+chakra rods or soul rip)while tobirama and minato fight a battle that will instantly shift to tobirama's favor when the superior dojutsu user beats itachi.


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## Trojan (Mar 10, 2015)

Assuming Tobirama will last that long to begin with. 
their battle with speed will end much faster than Minato's battle with A or Obito, especially with KCM in play.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Assuming Tobirama will last that long to begin with.
> their battle with speed will end much faster than Minato's battle with A or Obito, especially with KCM in play.



Yeah, especially when Tobirama had better reflexes than KCM Minato in their fight with Juubito, lol.

Tobirama is physically faster than aither Obito, or Ei, or KCM Minato. His reflexes are insane. He marked Juubito, which Minato couldnt do, and saved Minato from Juubito's Gudoudama by his clone + tagged Juubito few times later.

And Nagato can use Gedo Mazo for Minato's Kurama half.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Assuming Tobirama will last that long to begin with.
> their battle with speed will end much faster than Minato's battle with A or Obito, especially with KCM in play.



If tobirama plays smart and defensively with edo corpses/shadow clones coupled with his own top notch reflexes he will last. Tobirama is not someone minato can just run over going by feats. Minato took the two guys you mention by surprise it's not likely to happen to a guy who knows ftg like the back of his hand.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 10, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> If tobirama plays smart and defensively with edo corpses/shadow clones coupled with his own top notch reflexes he will last. Tobirama is not someone minato can just run over going by feats. Minato took the two guys you mention by surprise it's not likely to happen to a guy who knows ftg like the back of his hand.



In fact, Tobirama's reflexes are superior to those of KCM Minato due to his performance against Juubito.


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## Trojan (Mar 10, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> If tobirama plays smart and defensively with edo corpses/shadow clones coupled with his own top notch reflexes he will last. Tobirama is not someone minato can just run over going by feats. Minato took the two guys you mention by surprise it's not likely to happen to a guy who knows ftg like the back of his hand.



Can Tobirama control his ET and fight at the same time? What about contract seal, and Minato's own clones?



> Tobirama is not someone minato can just run over going by feats


What makes Tobirama different or better than characters have far faster shunshin/ teleportation in your opinion?



> Minato took the two guys you mention by surprise it's not likely to happen to a guy who knows ftg like the back of his hand.



Both of them knew Minato's FTG well. Even the fodders know, and A stated that it's the same guy who stopped Kumo's attempt to get Kurama back by himself, so he was well aware of who he's against.. 

Obito of course is Minato's student, and he has seen him in action. I say, if those people who know Minato very well got taken by surprised, chances are Tobirama who does not know him as well, won't have better chances.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Can Tobirama control his ET and fight at the same time? What about contract seal, and Minato's own clones?


Who knows but if he tags them they would be places to strategically warp too regardless. He would have to touch tobirama to cancel out tobirama's control over edo tensei and something that would not happen easily if tobirama is focusing on not getting touched. 




> What makes Tobirama different or better than characters have far faster shunshin/ teleportation in your opinion?


His reflexes are really good going off his best feat of tagging V1 juubito even though he got hit doing so. Minato would have extreme diff catching him playing the defensive.





> Both of them knew Minato's FTG well. Even the fodders know, and A stated that it's the same guy who stopped Kumo's try to get Kurama back by himself, so he was well aware of who he's against..


But he still didn't know all the tricks minato would do evident by him being bewildered when he tagged bee in a split second(despite thinking he had it all figured out a moment before). Tobirama knows about tagging people etc and would always be alert because of that.



> Obito of course is Minato's student, and he has seen him in action. I say, if those people who know Minato very well got taken by surprised, chances are Tobirama who does not know him as well, won't have better chances.


Unlike them he knows more about his fighting style though...he basically created it. Obito got trolled because minato put a kunai in his blindspot(a trick tobirama tried to do against madara). Why would tobirama fall for that when he already knows it can be done?


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## Trojan (Mar 10, 2015)

> =blackguyinpinksuit;53070938]Who knows but if he tags them they would be places to strategically warp too regardless. He would have to touch tobirama to cancel out tobirama's control over edo tensei and something that would not happen easily if tobirama is focusing on not getting touched.



Why would he need to touch Tobirama? The contract works both way. For example, Naruto can summon the frogs, and the frogs can summon Naruto, no? 


> His reflexes are really good going off his best feat of tagging V1 juubito even though he got hit doing so. Minato would have extreme diff catching him playing the defensive.



A's reflexes are superior to Tobirama, and that did not help him much, did it? 



> But he still didn't know all the tricks minato would do evident by him being bewildered when he tagged bee in a split second(despite thinking he had it all figured out a moment before). Tobirama knows about tagging people etc and would always be alert because of that.


you said it. It's about the tricks, and Tobirama the same thing won't know how would Minato use his attacks, and tacts either even if he knows that FTG is basically teleporting to the marks (which both A and Obito knew as well) 

A was not surprised about tagging people, but his thought about what Minato may do is what was wrong. Just like obito, he do know about tagging people, and he knew that Minato can use the FTG seal with his sealing jutsu or the others like he (Minato) did to Kushina, no? Yet, it was Minato's usage that defeated him.

Even though Minato was at a disadvantage (Having slower shunshin than A, and weaker S/T jutsu than Obito) Now, base Minato is already superior to Tobirama in both, and his KCM would make the different even much bigger... 



> Unlike them he knows more about his fighting style though...he basically created it. Obito got trolled because minato put a kunai in his blindspot(a trick tobirama tried to do against madara). Why would tobirama fall for that when he already knows it can be done?



No, he does not. Obito is Minato's student, and A fought Minato several times with B. You're mistaken the fighting style, with the jutsu. Tobirama created the JUTSU, not Minato's fighting style, as Tobirama himself does not use it that way. 

For example, Tobirama also created the clones, does that mean he created Naruto's way of transforming the clones into rocks, and fooling Deva, or that he created Naruto's way of doing that with Kakuzu....etc? 

Or have you seen Tobirama using the Kunais and the jutsu exactly as Minato to say that he created his "fighting style"? There is a big different between the two, I believe. 

Or for that matter, Minato created the Rassengan as well, does he use it the same his Kid does? So, even though Narudo use the same jutsu as his father, but
it was stated that his fighting style is actually like his mother. So, simply, the jutsu is NOT the same as the fighting style...


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## Gibbs (Mar 10, 2015)

Made a notation in the OP to clarify & hopefully resolve some confusion.


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## Rocky (Mar 10, 2015)

Biju Mode Minato is comfortably stronger than Nagato, while Itachi & Tobirama are comparable. I'd claim Minato & Itachi to be the more intelligent team, and they also have slightly greater synergy.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Why would he need to touch Tobirama? The contract works both way. For example, Naruto can summon the frogs, and the frogs can summon Naruto, no?


If i'm not mistaken the contract seal work by placing the seal on the user who has control over a summon making him lose control over that seal. Are you saying touching a edo would make the user lose control over it? Where is the statement where it says they work both ways. 




> A's reflexes are superior to Tobirama, and that did not help him much, did it?


A was not playing the defensive he ran right into minato's attack range trying to hit him.




> you said it. It's about the tricks, and Tobirama the same thing won't know how would Minato use his attacks, and tacts either even if he knows that FTG is basically teleporting to the marks (which both A and Obito knew as well)


Tobirama uses the same tricks minato does(tag a kunai and put it in a blind spot, warp to a advantageous position while dodging the opponents blow at the last second etc). Only thing minato can do that tobirama don't know about is space time barrier(and that's if he doesn't have full knowledge on minato in this scenario).



> A was not surprised about tagging people, but his thought about what Minato may do is what was wrong.


I know and that's a method that won't surprise a seasoned user of FTG who has use that same tactic before(tobirama). 



> Just like obito, he do know about tagging people, and he knew that Minato can use the FTG seal with his sealing jutsu or the others like he (Minato) did to Kushina, no? Yet, it was Minato's usage that defeated him.


But the manner of which he defeated obito with is something that isn't foreign to tobirama. If obito knew or anticipated(like tobirama would being familiar with that tactic) that minato would warp over his head then the fight would not have gone like that.



> Even though Minato was at a disadvantage (Having slower shunshin than A, and weaker S/T jutsu than Obito)


Yet overall they were slower than him in battles of speed because his space time ninjutsu was the fastest. Minato didn't even depend on shunshin to beat A just reflexes and ftg and it didn't matter that obito's kamui was more advanced because it was not faster than ftg where it matter most a battle of speed.



> Now, base Minato is already superior to Tobirama in both, and his KCM would make the different even much bigger...


KCM literally did not give minato any notable enhancements if it did kishimoto did a bad job showing them. No flash shunshin and his quickest feat(casually intercepting truth seekers and getting away with them without bodily harm) was done in base. 





> No, he does not. Obito is Minato's student, and A fought Minato several times with B. You're mistaken the fighting style, with the jutsu. Tobirama created the JUTSU, not Minato's fighting style, as Tobirama himself does not use it that way.


Their fighting styles using that jutsu is so similar i mean what has minato done so different from tobirama with it besides space time barrier.



> For example, Tobirama also created the clones, does that mean he created Naruto's way of transforming the clones into rocks, and fooling Deva, or that he created Naruto's way of doing that with Kakuzu....etc?


This is something entirely different. Let us keep the topic on FTG



> Or have you seen Tobirama using the Kunais and the jutsu exactly as Minato to say that he created his "fighting style"? There is a big different between the two, I believe.


Yes i have. Warping using clones? They have both done that. Tagging kunai. They have both done that. Warping to seal they place around beforehand. They have both done that. Warping away hazardous things through contact? They have both done that. The only different minato does is space time barrier when it comes to techniques.



> Or for that matter, Minato created the Rassengan as well, does he use it the same his Kid does? So, even though Narudo use the same jutsu as his father, but
> it was stated that his fighting style is actually like his mother. So, simply, the jutsu is NOT the same as the fighting style...


Again this is a totally different topic. Besides naruto created a million other jutsu with rasengan. For all intents and purposes he uses a basic rasengan just like minato would a basic rasengan...slamming it into the opponent.

Anyway the point i am making is that minato can only beat tobirama through a very hard fight and nothing less going off their showings. By that time nagato would have dealt with the weakest link(itachi) and tip the tides in tobirama's favor(this is the scenario in which minato does not have bijuu mode which he does here so it's moot).


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 10, 2015)

Team Nagato wins. 

Itachi is useless in this match because all his jutsu is rendered useless to Nagato due to having the rinnegan also Itachi lacks the speed to fight Tobirama and aid Minato and lastly his genjutsu won't be able to reach tobirama because he is to fast.

All team nagato has to do to win is spam rinnegan beast summons and get edo people up take out itachi then double team Minato and overpower him even if he has BM. Also for people saying Minato can go into SM he can't. He stated in manga that he had never used SM in battle that is CANON.


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## sabre320 (Mar 10, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Team Nagato wins.
> 
> Itachi is useless in this match because all his jutsu is rendered useless to Nagato due to having the rinnegan also Itachi lacks the speed to fight Tobirama and aid Minato and lastly his genjutsu won't be able to reach tobirama because he is to fast.
> 
> All team nagato has to do to win is spam rinnegan beast summons and get edo people up take out itachi then double team Minato and overpower him even if he has BM. Also for people saying Minato can go into SM he can't. He stated in manga that he had never used SM in battle that is CANON.



nagato is not overpowering bm minato and tobirama has no firepower to even dent him..


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## Joakim3 (Mar 10, 2015)

BM Minato solos

Tobirama is a non factor, while Nagato gets nuked off the planet with Bijudama spamming, make it KCM Minato and the fight becomes substantially more fair but as it stands, rape stomp


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 10, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> BM Minato solos
> 
> Tobirama is a non factor, while Nagato gets nuked off the planet with Bijudama spamming, make it KCM Minato and the fight becomes substantially more fair but as it stands, rape stomp



I beg to differ. Edo Nagato was raping KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. And alive Nagto is supposedly considerable more powerful just like Madara stated he was. And people forget Nagato is also a very smart fighter minus plot shield vs Naruto. Even if BM has the edge don't count Nagato out due to mindless spamming of a jutsu he can easily avoid.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 10, 2015)

> What makes Tobirama different or better than characters have far faster shunshin/ teleportation in your opinion?



His superior reflexes and striking speed.


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## Icegaze (Mar 10, 2015)

am confused from the OP 
BM mode isnt allowed

or did i read it wrong 

if minato is allowed BM mode then yh minato team would win


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## ARGUS (Mar 10, 2015)

BM minato solos


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## Gibbs (Mar 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> am confused from the OP
> BM mode isnt allowed
> 
> or did i read it wrong
> ...



Minato's Bijuu mode is allowed, and he gets feats from Naruto's FIrst Bijuu Mode release that Minato would be able to perform. Basically, no bijuu dama (Minato never performed it), chakra roar (Minato never performed it), no chakra sharing (Minato never performed it)


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## StarWanderer (Mar 10, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> BM minato solos



Nagato summons Gedo Mazo = absorbs Minato's Kurama half?


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## ARGUS (Mar 10, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Nagato summons Gedo Mazo = absorbs Minato's Kurama half?



He can't control the mazo properly. 
And with his usage. The mazo gets eradicated 
The help of FTG just helps him troll the mazo completely


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 10, 2015)

I'm leaning towards Itachi and Minato considering Nagato gets killed off rather easily.


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## Bonly (Mar 10, 2015)

I'd favor Team Itachi to win more times then not here, Minato being allowed to use BM is to much of an advantage as he's gonna nuke them to hell.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 10, 2015)

Bonly said:


> I'd favor Team Itachi to win more times then not here, Minato being allowed to use BM is to much of an advantage as he's gonna nuke them to hell.



 I doubt he can nuke Tobirama considering Tobirama's speed and reflexes with Hiraishin, but Nagato gets nuked and Tobirama has absolutely nothing on BM Minato and Itachi.


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## Bonly (Mar 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I doubt he can nuke Tobirama considering Tobirama's speed and reflexes with Hiraishin, but Nagato gets nuked and Tobirama has absolutely nothing on BM Minato and Itachi.



Speed and Hiraishin isn't an automatic safety card, Tobi would have to teleport somewhere outside of the range of the Bijuudama and since Minato himself has Hiraishin, he might just dick over Tobi and send the Bijuudama to where Tobi is(or the general area) and Tobi might still be fucked even with them so yeah he can still be nuked to hell due to the AoE


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 10, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Speed and Hiraishin isn't an automatic safety card, Tobi would have to teleport somewhere outside of the range of the Bijuudama and since Minato himself has Hiraishin, he might just dick over Tobi and send the Bijuudama to where Tobi is(or the general area) and Tobi might still be fucked even with them so yeah he can still be nuked to hell due to the AoE



 True, never considered that. Carry on now.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> He can't control the mazo properly.
> And with his usage. The mazo gets eradicated
> The help of FTG just helps him troll the mazo completely



If Obito can, while not being able to maintain 2 Rinnegans, why Nagato cant, who used Gedo Mazo before? 

Also, dont you think Mazo's chains are to fast for BM Minato? BSM Naruto couldnt avoid them.


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## Kyu (Mar 11, 2015)

> BSM Naruto couldnt avoid them.



Actually, it was BM Naruto who couldn't avoid them.

And BM Minato is >> him.


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## Trojan (Mar 11, 2015)

Gibbs said:


> Minato's Bijuu mode is allowed, and he gets feats from Naruto's FIrst Bijuu Mode release that Minato would be able to perform. Basically, no bijuu dama (Minato never performed it), chakra roar (Minato never performed it), no chakra sharing (Minato never performed it)



Actually Minato did preform both TBB and chaka charing.

@blackguyinpinksuit

I will return to your post later (I hope)...


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Actually, it was BM Naruto who couldn't avoid them.
> 
> And BM Minato is >> him.



Since when BM Minato >> BM Naruto?


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## Rocky (Mar 11, 2015)

Because they essentially receive the same exact boost to their respective abilities, and normal Minato is most definitely above Base Naruto (War Arc).

Only when combining Sage Mode & Biju Mode does Naruto close that gap.



Nagato also cannot seal Biju without the rest of the Akatsuki, in case you missed the beginning half of Part II.


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## Kyu (Mar 11, 2015)

@StarWanderer: Since Kyuubi Minato is a faster, teleporting, more intelligent, version of BM Nardo. Y'know and he can kinda warp Juubi+ level attacks to wherever he pleases.


I understand you despise Minato, but how are you even questioning this?


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## Trojan (Mar 11, 2015)

This seems a rather long post ~.~


> =blackguyinpinksuit;53071325]If i'm not mistaken the contract seal work by placing the seal on the user who has control over a summon making him lose control over that seal. Are you saying touching a edo would make the user lose control over it? Where is the statement where it says they work both ways.


There is no statement that says the seal work with only the user. Minato used against Obito simply because he was fighting him, and since the seal can be placed at anyone, I don't see why it won't work from the other end..



> A was not playing the defensive he ran right into minato's attack range trying to hit him.


Well, the battle will come to that eventually, unless you think Tobirama will not even fight. 



> Tobirama uses the same tricks minato does(tag a kunai and put it in a blind spot, warp to a advantageous position while dodging the opponents blow at the last second etc). Only thing minato can do that tobirama don't know about is space time barrier(and that's if he doesn't have full knowledge on minato in this scenario).


Still not the same as Minato throws more Kunais, like for example how his long named jutsu was described, or how the game showed  which I heard Kishi approved of it (tho I understand if you don't take as a proof or something ) 

Not to mention with Minato's striking speed that makes it easier for him...



> I know and that's a method that won't surprise a seasoned user of FTG who has use that same tactic before(tobirama).


and why wouldn't it? Unless you claim that Tobirama will know the future with 100% accuracy, I don't see how would he know what will Minato do..  


> But the manner of which he defeated obito with is something that isn't foreign to tobirama. If obito knew or anticipated(like tobirama would being familiar with that tactic) that minato would warp over his head then the fight would not have gone like that.


We don't really know if Tobirama knew that tactic before the war though, or he simply saw Minato's usage of the Kunai and he mimic it because since they arrived, and their entire fight with Obito, Tobirama never did use such a thing, so for all we know he could have simply copied what Minato did. Needless to say, even knowing about it won't help anyway since this is KCM Minato, he can simply use his chakra arms to cover the area


> Yet overall they were slower than him in battles of speed because his space time ninjutsu was the fastest. Minato didn't even depend on shunshin to beat A just reflexes and ftg and it didn't matter that obito's kamui was more advanced because it was not faster than ftg where it matter most a battle of speed.


The thing is they at least had 1 thing bitter than Minato, when Tobirama has none. In addition to the fact that they also had the advantage of Minato not knowing their jutsu beforehand, and Tobirama does not even have that... 



> KCM literally did not give minato any notable enhancements if it did kishimoto did a bad job showing them. No flash shunshin and his quickest feat(casually intercepting truth seekers and getting away with them without bodily harm) was done in base.



Because he was against a far superior foe (JJ Obito), just like how BSM did not seem to give Naruto anything in addition to what he already showed, but that does not mean he did not get an increase in power. Also, Minato was able to stop Kakashi because he barely moved his hand

Even though he was very far away from him. If Minato used this shunshin, Tobirama is not going to last more than 1 second. 


> Their fighting styles using that jutsu is so similar i mean what has minato done so different from tobirama with it besides space time barrier.


The number of Kunais being used. Minato was able to wipe out thousand of fodders, when Tobirama's level was not high enough to deal with 20. Minato was able to deal with the strongest tag-team in Kumo by himself, and used the Kunai to be able to dodge/and do surprised attacks, when Tobirama's level was not enough to deal with weaker team even with back up of another Kage. 

If the style/level was not different the results wouldn't have been THIS different. Not to mention how many time it was mentioned that Minato's S/T jutsu are superior to Tobirama's... 




> Yes i have. Warping using clones? They have both done that. Tagging kunai. They have both done that. Warping to seal they place around beforehand. They have both done that. Warping away hazardous things through contact? They have both done that. The only different minato does is space time barrier when it comes to techniques.



And yet Tobirama's stated his clone's FTG is too slow, and he can't use combo attacks with them. On the other hand, it was stated that Minato took that to another level. 


> Tagging kunai. They have both done that.



Can you show me Tobirama's doing this?



(the many Kunais) 


> Again this is a totally different topic. Besides naruto created a million other jutsu with rasengan. For all intents and purposes he uses a basic rasengan just like minato would a basic rasengan...slamming it into the opponent.



And even then, Naruto used his Rassengan with the clones like when he attacked Kurama, Deva, Kakuzu....etc, which is different than Minato with his teleportation... 


> Anyway the point i am making is that minato can only beat tobirama through a very hard fight and nothing less going off their showings. By that time nagato would have dealt with the weakest link(itachi) and tip the tides in tobirama's favor(this is the scenario in which minato does not have bijuu mode which he does here so it's moot).



The same thing was said about A, B and Obito before (and really every other character like Deidara, Sasori...etc ), God did they last so long.  

Itachi won't be the weakest link with Minato's chakra though.


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## Trojan (Mar 11, 2015)

Kyu said:


> @StarWanderer: Since Kyuubi Minato is a faster, teleporting, more intelligent, version of BM Nardo. Y'know and he can kinda warp Juubi+ level attacks to wherever he pleases.
> 
> 
> I understand you despise Minato, but how are you even questioning this?



Why do you keep the sealing jutsu (and possibly the barriers) out, when they are one of the coolest things he has?


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## Kyu (Mar 11, 2015)

>coolest 

Hussainpls


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## Icegaze (Mar 11, 2015)

apparently from Db descrption tobirama can use his explosive tag jutsu with his original body. no need for ET

if itachi comes anywhere close he sets it off. swaps with a bunshin far off. and then itachi dies. 

2 vs 1 they should be able to take minato out.


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## Trojan (Mar 11, 2015)

If Tobirama used it by his own body he will die as well. 
you just took the part you wanted, and ignored the rest...


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## Icegaze (Mar 11, 2015)

lol clown 
what would kill him is the explosion 
something you decided to forget is if he creates a clone first. he can swap with the clone 

and he is out of the blast range. 



you just took the part u wanted as well. and forgot he has an escape technique that surpasses all other escape techniques. called hirashin. u know the jutsu that allows u to wank minato in ur sleep


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## Trojan (Mar 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol clown
> what would kill him is the explosion
> something you decided to forget is if he creates a clone first. he can swap with the clone
> 
> ...




I don't know how to stress the facepalm enough. 

you think he is going to survive stabbing his heart if swapped with a freaking clone? 
Also, if he stabbed himself, wouldn't that make the clones disappear? 


If he can survive, it wouldn't have been considered as a Suicide move, enough with the fan-fiction already.


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## Icegaze (Mar 11, 2015)

silly person with no brain
its a suicide move because of the blast radius. if the live user had to stab himself to get explosive tags. that would mean they were in his body to begin with.  you see how that isnt very practical right to have explosive tags in ur own body

its the blast radius which is emphaized as why its a suicide move. do show me oh brilliant one where it says the user must stab himself . go on ill wait


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## Trojan (Mar 11, 2015)

Anyway, you can ride Tobirama's - all you want. It was made clear wether you like it or not. I am not going to waste my time on your wank....



> it says the user must stab himself . go on ill wait


I already did. You just keep riding his -, and blinding yourself.


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## Icegaze (Mar 11, 2015)

lol because u got more than one person that agrees with u right? oh no wait
everyone knows u the best wanker on this forum. 

show me a poster who ever agrees with u. ill just keep u on that my ignore list.


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## Trojan (Mar 11, 2015)

Because majority means you're write? Please, stop living in you fictional world. People barely know what best for them. 

The DB said it kills. Tobirama said he has NEVER before used it by his own before, and I am supposed your foolish words for it over what the creator of the jutsu say? Nice joke.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 11, 2015)

Honestly, I've some theorys about Nagato using Gedo Mazo and chains, but i can't prove it (unlike i did banshou ten'in vs susano'o).

Minato speed > Tobirama speed. Tobirama admitted it. Also, Minato arrived to the battle field BEFORE everyone of them using Shunshin. Tobirama shunshin was weak.

Tobirama was faster using hiraishin to teleport that orb for Juubito, because Minato had no right arm. Also, Kishimoto nerfed Minato so he could buff Tobirama.

In my opinion, base Minato is stronger than base Tobirama, special with Modo Sennin. BUT, Tobirama is more versatile.

Here, Minato can win alone. Itachi get's attrated and dies on the first seconds. Minato can win against both Tobirama and Nagato IF HE CAN teleport himself for the marks. 

If Nagato destroys the marks using Asura's missels, then team 1 wins. Depends on their analises.


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## Trojan (Mar 11, 2015)

> That's it. Obito with 1 Rinnegan, and he said that he was not capable of using 2, controlled Gedo Mazo. Why can't Nagato do the same?



Naruto stated that Obito is better than Nagato. 



> but Gedo Mazo's control using chains yes, he can.


No he can't. That's why obito is better than him as stated in the manga



> (a surprise attack, he can't dodge that he can't see)


Good there are sensor abilities. 



> Also, Tobirama is a great shinobi. Gojuu Kibakuufuda can destroy Susano'o pretty easily, since Yata can't defend them 360?.


and he will be killed when he uses it.


> Ah, and Minato BM << Naruto BM.


lol, no.


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## Icegaze (Mar 11, 2015)

lol and that means he cant. if he couldnt DB would say it solely requires an ET to perform 
then again why risk ur body in anyway when u can do it with an ET?

majority does mean ur right. the fact that u dont know that shows how foolish u are. if 90% of the population tell u white is white and u want to think is black good for u. but those 90% would be considered right. u probably trapped in ur room all day. but for example only gay people need to justify themselves because they are a minority. u would never have a basket ball player say, i am basket ball and i am straight. its assumed. but a gay one, oh no he gotta mention it, why? he feels he needs to justify himself cuz he is a minority. 

juudara stronger than obito. 99%  agree for the 1% that dont they would have to say why they think so. anywayz enough u arent smart enough to understand what i am saying


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## Trojan (Mar 11, 2015)

@Icegaze

please stop wasting our time. 
1- Madara stated that ET was originally created for that
_skid to a stop_

2- Tobirama said he never used it before by his body
and he also said it's for ET

3- and the DB clarified why even further.  

so don't waste our time with your vain talk...


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Because they essentially receive the same exact boost to their respective abilities, and normal Minato is most definitely above Base Naruto (War Arc).
> 
> Only when combining Sage Mode & Biju Mode does Naruto close that gap.
> 
> ...



Kurama Naruto has better feats with shunshin than Kurama Minato, but ok, i agree that Minato is superior.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2015)

> unlike i did banshou ten'in vs susano'o



No you didnt.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> No you didnt.



I'm not a english native. I can't explain my self in the best way.

But, send me ur skype ID, if u want, and I can try to explain it in a better way.

Or, I can send u a link of my post (portuguese), and u translate it for english.

Anyway, Minato it's a skilled guy, in my opinion team 1 would win, BUT, from manga facts, they can't.

In my opinion, CST knockdowns kyuubi, gakido absorves their chakra, nad it's done. But, whatever


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> I'm not a english native. I can't explain my self in the best way.
> 
> But, send me ur skype ID, if u want, and I can try to explain it in a better way.
> 
> ...



You havent proved Banshou Ten'in can work against a Susanoo user by pulling him out of it. Your every attempt to prove that was countered by me. Thats what i'm talking about.



> silly person with no brain



Wow, easy there, dude. Hussain is trolling around. Its obvious. But hey, thats too harsh.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Mar 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol and that means he cant. if he couldnt DB would say it solely requires an ET to perform
> then again why risk ur body in anyway when u can do it with an ET?
> 
> majority does mean ur right. the fact that u dont know that shows how foolish u are. if 90% of the population tell u white is white and u want to think is black good for u. but those 90% would be considered right. u probably trapped in ur room all day. but for example only gay people need to justify themselves because they are a minority. u would never have a basket ball player say, i am basket ball and i am straight. its assumed. but a gay one, oh no he gotta mention it, why? he feels he needs to justify himself cuz he is a minority.
> ...



Sometimes there is no need to argue.

The DB states:
*"If a live person performs the technique, death is inevitable, for it is a blast technique that sacrifices one’s life."*

It's written in black and white. If there were methods to escape it like FTG or if a clone could perform it, then the db wouldn't have written this. The reason it is an edo Tensei technique is because Tobirama cannot use it without sacrificing himself. Case closed.

INEVITABLE DEATH! Tobirama found a way around this, by combining it with EDO tensei. He said he never performed it himself before, so let's not try to speculate.


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## Trojan (Mar 13, 2015)

you're wasting your time.


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Sometimes there is no need to argue.
> 
> The DB states:
> *"If a live person performs the technique, death is inevitable, for it is a blast technique that sacrifices one?s life."*
> ...



mabui tech is described the same way for anyone other than the 3rd trying to use it. they would die since they dont have tempered steal body 
tsunade walked away from that casually 

fair enough though i wont speculate. its not like he cant get his tensei to the enemy casually through hirashin. unless minato saves itachi tobirama takes him out. without much trouble


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Mar 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> mabui tech is described the same way for anyone other than the 3rd trying to use it. they would die since they dont have tempered steal body
> tsunade walked away from that casually
> 
> fair enough though i wont speculate. its not like he cant get his tensei to the enemy casually through hirashin. unless minato saves itachi tobirama takes him out. without much trouble



Completely different. That tech was never called a suicide technique. It's just a Jutsu for sending objects. In fact it was never intended to transport people. It just so happened that 3rd Raikage was durable enough to withstand it. This in no way relates to Tobiramas Jutsu which was created solely as a kamikaze jutsu which leads to inevitable death. There's a big difference between a jutsu that causes the users death, and a jutsu that will most likely resort to the death of the user. Tsuande didn't walk away casually, she was constantly healing herself and regenerating.

Itachi with a chakra cloak is above tobirama. His tech uses are amplified by 3x the amount. He doesn't need Minatos help. Either way, Itachi will not only have a chakra cloak, he'll also hold onto 1 of Minato's Kunai for precation purposes. Any FTG strategy Tobirama attempts is countered by minato and anticipated. There isn't anything with FTG thst Tobirama can do that minato won't foresee and anticipate, minato created several variations and improved the mastery of the jutsu, so that's uselss. Chakra cloak is very durable as we saw in the water, in addition to itachi's boosted Susanoo, plus Yata Mirror, itachi's defence is above Tobirama's comprehension. Not to mention minato can create a KCM clone to stay with itachi inside his susanoo for extra chakra boost and support at all times.

As long as minato has upgraded itachi and taken safety measuers, Tobirama can't do anything to him.


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Completely different. That tech was never called a suicide technique. It's just a Jutsu for sending objects. In fact it was never intended to transport people. It just so happened that 3rd Raikage was durable enough to withstand it. This in no way relates to Tobiramas Jutsu which was created solely as a kamikaze jutsu which leads to inevitable death. There's a big difference between a jutsu that causes the users death, and a jutsu that will most likely resort to the death of the user. Tsuande didn't walk away casually, she was constantly healing herself and regenerating.
> 
> Itachi with a chakra cloak is above tobirama. His tech uses are amplified by 3x the amount. He doesn't need Minatos help. Either way, Itachi will not only have a chakra cloak, he'll also hold onto 1 of Minato's Kunai for precation purposes. Any FTG strategy Tobirama attempts is countered by minato and anticipated. There isn't anything with FTG thst Tobirama can do that minato won't foresee and anticipate, minato created several variations and improved the mastery of the jutsu, so that's uselss. Chakra cloak is very durable as we saw in the water, in addition to itachi's boosted Susanoo, plus Yata Mirror, itachi's defence is above Tobirama's comprehension. Not to mention minato can create a KCM clone to stay with itachi inside his susanoo for extra chakra boost and support at all times.
> 
> As long as minato has upgraded itachi and taken safety measuers, Tobirama can't do anything to him.



lol itachi defense is far from above tobirama comphresion considering his explosive jutsu never ends as it is described in DB. since we want to go on with descriptions. cant have one without the other. if tobirama pulls off the jutsu. and itachi is in the vicitinty its either he gets saved or dies, because regardless of his defence. an explosion that never stops would kill him 

As for minato anticipating and besting tobirama. this could be true kishi did say he imrpvoed the techiques

as to several varations of improvement. its really only the barrier 

kunai- tobirama did 
clones tobirama did ( tobirama invented the swapping with clones. thats not something minato thought of) 
hirahsin step 2- welcome to hirahsingiri

outside the barrier and using more kunai ( which can be replaced by using clones- clones move) minato didnt really do that much to improve the technique

what makes minato better at it, is minato is simply faster. doesnt mean he will anticiapte everything tobirama can do. and if he is spending time worrying about saving or protecting itachi. nagato has a field day with him 

btw preta path can troll all their jutsu. just saying, no reason to believe preta cant absorb BD

and tobirama can tag nagato as well. 

so it then becomes a direct individual comparison 

nagato i think is stronger than BM minato u would say he isnt. eitherway nagato and minato are the top 2
itachi is the weakest of the lot.


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## sabre320 (Mar 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol itachi defense is far from above tobirama comphresion considering his explosive jutsu never ends as it is described in DB. since we want to go on with descriptions. cant have one without the other. if tobirama pulls off the jutsu. and itachi is in the vicitinty its either he gets saved or dies, because regardless of his defence. an explosion that never stops would kill him
> 
> As for minato anticipating and besting tobirama. this could be true kishi did say he imrpvoed the techiques
> 
> ...



dude nagato above bm minato...he isnt on bm narutos level and minatos is on a tier above..


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2015)

@sabre lol I love ur fanfic 
Please how on earth did Kishi portray BM minato as a tier above BM naruto 
Go on I'll wait 

As for BM naruto being above Nagato . Feel free to prove that  

Nagato preta paths everything . Please do show me where it says Preta has a limit on what it can absorb I'll wait 

Nagato summons gedo mazo and soul Dragons naruto. Who wasn't even able to blitz ET Madara 

And only got a hit on a blind madara not focused on him .


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## sabre320 (Mar 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @sabre lol I love ur fanfic
> Please how on earth did Kishi portray BM minato as a tier above BM naruto
> Go on I'll wait
> 
> ...



Jesus christ lets compare base naruto and minato do you believe they are remotely comparable?
THEN GIVE THEM THE SAME POWERUP..minatos stats in bm are much greater..
then we bring ftg into it...are u seriously saying ftg space time barrier hirashin swap ect are insignificant

Bm minato was portrayed around bsm narutos level ..
bm naruto can tank anything nagato can dish out rather comfortabely..can creat 13 kcm clones..
nagato uses st its tanked and then the clones r bm naruto murder him in the cd...


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Jesus christ lets compare base naruto and minato do you believe they are remotely comparable?
> THEN GIVE THEM THE SAME POWERUP..minatos stats in bm are much greater..
> then we bring ftg into it...are u seriously saying ftg space time barrier hirashin swap ect are insignificant
> 
> ...



Minato can't use Sage mode and combine it with BM mode 
Naruto can so no with all ur silly assumptions Kishi never even slightly tried to portray minato as far above . Therefore guess what he isn't . Minato can do all the hirashin he wants all day that's his problem. He still wasn't anymore of a threat against Juubito than BM naruto was 

Nagato stands there and preta paths all chakra based attacks for the lolz . Where is a limit on its absorbption stated ??

Samehada can absorb 6 tails worth of chakra from killer bee now unless u tbink every bD has far more chakra preta path which showed the ability to do the Same with no damage would laugh at BD all day 

Let's not forget Nagato army of summon or gedo mazo which he can use to absorb naruto chakra .


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## sabre320 (Mar 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato can't use Sage mode and combine it with BM mode
> Naruto can so no with all ur silly assumptions Kishi never even slightly tried to portray minato as far above . Therefore guess what he isn't . Minato can do all the hirashin he wants all day that's his problem. He still wasn't anymore of a threat against Juubito than BM naruto was
> 
> Nagato stands there and preta paths all chakra based attacks for the lolz . Where is a limit on its absorbption stated ??
> ...



I said bm minato was portrayed as above bm naruto....not far above i said he was portrayed about the same as bsm naruto....Senjutsu is juubi jins weakness against regular opponents that isnt a problem is it? 

Great lets assume nagato can absorb bijudama it takes time to absorb th bijudama while bm naruto can spam multiple bijudama simultaneously..he can also launch them in different locations and nagato will still be caught in the explosion....

Nagatos summons lol one roar from bm naruto sends all of nagatos summons miles away along with nagato and the kcm and bm clones finish him off..nagato sure as hell isnt surviving a physical contest against 13 kcm clones and 3 bm clones...he gets his shit kicked in sadly none of nagatos attacks can threaten naruto and in the cd one roar  sends nagato reeling after that he gets ganged upon..

nagato couldnt use gedomazo in that way even obito who had stronger control of the outer path couldnt not to mention if nagato uses gedomazo he gets static again and emanciated..

bm naruto is above nagato...bm minato is bm naruto on steroids already being a top tier ninja and has ftg hax and utility to boot..


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## ARGUS (Mar 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> If Obito can, while not being able to maintain 2 Rinnegans, why Nagato cant, who used Gedo Mazo before?


Nope thats not how it works, 
 -- you need the rinnegan to *summon* the mazo but to *control it, you require the Senju and Uchiha DNA, * 
Nagato lacks the Uchiha dna and he was left crippled after using the mazo, 
not to mention that the GM on its own gets steam rolled by BM minato, its not doing shit here, apart from tiring nagato out and putting him at a worse condition 




> Also, dont you think Mazo's chains are to fast for BM Minato? BSM Naruto couldnt avoid them.


BM naruto, was caught in the chains *after* he was overwhelmed by Rinbo Hengoku, 
otherwise the mazos chains can be avoided just fine, especially with FTG on the agenda 
not to mention that nagato has shown literally no feats of being able to use the GM chains, and he cant control the GM either as addressed above 




Icegaze said:


> @sabre lol I love ur fanfic
> Please how on earth did Kishi portray BM minato as a tier above BM naruto
> Go on I'll wait



Base Minato >>>> base naruto, 
add the exact same BM boost, as well as the utility of FTG, and Minato is a tier above, 
doesnt matter if kishi didnt flat out state in the manga that bm minato is superior, 
feats and logical reasoning make it blatantly clear that he is above naruto 



> As for BM naruto being above Nagato . Feel free to prove that
> 
> Nagato preta paths everything . *Please do show me where it says Preta has a limit on what it can absorb I'll wait *
> .


Classic example of no-limits-fallacy, 
just because kishi didnt flat out show it in the manga doesnt imply in any way that it has no limit
and this is even more ironic coming from you, when just in the previous thread you were saying that nagato cant handle a single TBB from Killer Bee, 



Icegaze said:


> Minato can't use Sage mode and combine it with BM mode
> Naruto can so no with all ur silly assumptions Kishi never even slightly tried to portray minato as far above . Therefore guess what he isn't . Minato can do all the hirashin he wants all day that's his problem. *He still wasn't anymore of a threat against Juubito than BM naruto was*


And how exactly does this prove your point? 



> Nagato stands there and preta paths all chakra based attacks for the lolz . Where is a limit on its absorbption stated ??


classic no-limits-fallacy, 



> Samehada can absorb 6 tails worth of chakra from killer bee now unless u tbink every bD has far more chakra preta path which showed the ability to do the Same with no damage would laugh at BD all day


No it wont, 
by the time nagato even absorbs one TBB, minato would sneak behind him and mark him with a clone, 
and from that point on, nagato gets finished, 



> Let's not forget Nagato army of summon or gedo mazo which he can use to absorb naruto chakra .


All summons are utmost garbage to the avatar, not seeing why youre even mentioning it,


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## Jagger (Mar 18, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I beg to differ. Edo Nagato was raping KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. And alive Nagto is supposedly considerable more powerful just like Madara stated he was. And people forget Nagato is also a very smart fighter minus plot shield vs Naruto. Even if BM has the edge don't count Nagato out due to mindless spamming of a jutsu he can easily avoid.


Are we talking about the same individual that was tricked twice by Naruto using the same trick during their fight despite Nagato held the advantage over said trick with his Rinnegan?

Undoubtedly a very "smart" fighter.


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## Icegaze (Mar 18, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> well thats that nagato can absorb juubis giant bijudama,indras arrow nagato got this lol be reasonable ice



i dont see why not. its not a no limit fallacy kishi has always given clear limits to *all techniques with implied no limits*
the jutsu u mentioned arent out of the boundary out what preta path is designed to deal with 

preta path is trolled by ninjutsu that absorb chakra and omyoton 
yata can only nullify non elemental 
strongest shield well it looses to the strongest spear and so on and so forth 

i dont see why its ridiculous that nagato can absorb juubi giant bijuudama. that doesnt suddenly mean he would win 

same for indra arrow. though absorbing that much sage chakra would be an issue for nagato. due to the sage chakra being there

i dont see why kakashi can be able to kamui indra arrow but somehow preta path wont work. why apply a no limit fallacy to kamui and not preta despite the fact that kishi has set very clear limits to both abilties which NF chooses to ignore


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## LostSelf (Mar 18, 2015)

Biju Mode Minato = Unbalanced matchup.


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## sabre320 (Mar 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i dont see why not. its not a no limit fallacy kishi has always given clear limits to *all techniques with implied no limits*
> the jutsu u mentioned arent out of the boundary out what preta path is designed to deal with
> 
> preta path is trolled by ninjutsu that absorb chakra and omyoton
> ...



dms kakashi can kamui indras arrow because it is a reasonabely sized projectile which can be directed into a portal kamui is not absorbing the massive chakra or delecting or matching the firepower .... actually we did see the limits of preta being implied acording to the rinnegans user...preta path took time to absorb senpo chou oodama rasengan and frs pushed the preta barrier inside..edo madara absorbed frs quickly from here we draw a reasonable scale of its abilities to just go it can absorb juubis continent destroying juubidama instantly is ridiculous.. end of story nagato cannot absorb multiple bijudama aimed at multiple locations he will get caught in the explosion..


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## Icegaze (Mar 18, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> dms kakashi can kamui indras arrow because it is a reasonabely sized projectile which can be directed into a portal kamui is not absorbing the massive chakra or delecting or matching the firepower .... actually we did see the limits of preta being implied acording to the rinnegans user...preta path took time to absorb senpo chou oodama rasengan and frs pushed the preta barrier inside..edo madara absorbed frs quickly from here we draw a reasonable scale of its abilities to just go it can absorb juubis continent destroying juubidama instantly is ridiculous.. end of story nagato cannot absorb multiple bijudama aimed at multiple locations he will get caught in the explosion..



*please i dare u to find a panel showign preta path suffering against COFRS. where is this panel. never seen. hardly a reasonable scale. preta never met COFRS. madara chakra had been absorbed by wood dragon. try harder buddy*

when u have actual feats instead of creating them it you would have a point. till then u dont

preta absorbs any ninjutsu which cant absorb his chakra barrier or nullify it 


now thats the end. because kishi said so

dont know if this has been mentioned but i just noticed itachi V4 suanoo tanked hachibi BD+FRS+YM
people usually go on about how it has no defensive feats. but that combined explosion is certainly very impressive. I wonder why this hasnt been mentioned like all the time. its really impressive!!

they were very close to the core when they threw their attack


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