# Kakashi vs Itachi



## JuicyG (Nov 2, 2014)

Distance: 55 meters

Location: CE

Intel: Full

Mindset: IC

Restriction: Koto, Iza, Kakashi only has 1 MS

Condition: 

War-Arc Feats for Kakashi

Itachi is healthy



Bonus Question: 

Whose has the higher battle IQ ?

Involving tactics, strategies, and the ability to learn faster ?


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## Altair21 (Nov 2, 2014)

Meh, it can go either way IMO. I'd give a slight edge to Kakashi due to kamui. As for the bonus question, I give it to Kakashi as well. His tactical displays during battle have simply been better.


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## Mercurial (Nov 2, 2014)

Kakashi wins. He is faster, smarter, more versatile, tougher, better in CQC and ninjutsu, with more chakra and stamina than Itachi. He is outperformed only in genjutsu but he can avoid them or counter them with defense, up to Tsukuyomi, that he can avoid. Kamui GG can outspeed Amaterasu and warp away Susanoo or Itachi in Susanoo without him being able to do anything.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 2, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Distance: 55 meters
> 
> Location: CE
> 
> ...



The battle of skill.



This is a very close battle, but i would slightly lean toward itachi for having more win conditions.

With full intel any insta win buttons is out the window.

Kakashi was clever enough to fool shouten itachi with a bushin but itachi also picked up on it before he was even hit.

I doubt either of them would fall for a bushin feint but itachi has a slight advantage with clones due to his insane handspeed.

A raikiri bushin feint may end the match followed by kamui, but theres also a 50/50 chance it would hit a clone.

I would still give itachi the genjutsu advantage as even after kakashi got ms, he tried his best to avoid eye contact with shouten itachi despite itachi saying he wouldn't  use tsukiyomi.

Kakashi has the ninjutsu advantage and a array of jutsu but susano kind of voids almost all of them out.

Itachi is slightly faster but not fast enough to pressure kakashi.

All in all im giving this to itachi for having better defense options, and more win conditions.



Itachi 6.5/10 times high to extreme difficulty

Bonis scenerio: itachi and kakashi are both extremely intelligent just in diff ways, kakashi is the better stragetist and def the man i would go with if we had prep time, itachi is the better analysis and def the guy i would go with if we needed to think of something on the spot.

All in all i would slightly edge itachi in this to because i would rather have the ability to plan on the fly, but this is honestly even and depends on your preference


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## SSMG (Nov 2, 2014)

War arc feats for kakashi.. no dual ms restricted?


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## RedChidori (Nov 2, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> The battle of skill.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This .


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## Sadgoob (Nov 2, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Bonus Question:
> 
> Whose has the higher battle IQ ?
> 
> Involving tactics, strategies, and the ability to learn faster ?



Itachi had been superior in skill and knowledge for the vast majority of the manga despite being 9 years younger. Hence him having faster learning capabilities is self-evident.

Most people will use successfully clone-feinting an outnumbered opponent as evidence of Kakashi being more tactically skilled, but that logic would make Zabuza the most skilled ninja in the manga.

On the other hand, Obito saying that Itachi planned out every aspect about the Hebi Sasuke fight before it happened remains the most impressive tactical feat in the manga.

Similarly, Itachi has more ninjutsu skill in being able to use jutsu quickly and efficiently, and Kakashi merely has more elemental affinities and thus jutsu. People seem to confuse the two.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 2, 2014)

Susano'o undoubtedly gives Itachi the edge in any kind of circumstance imo. And with full knowledge, Kamui GG isn't happening. 

As for raw IQ, I'd say Itachi has more, considering his learning curve was better than Kakashi's and as for battle smarts go I'd rate them all around equal.


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## Invictus-Kun (Nov 2, 2014)

If this is DMS Kakashi, Itachi is done and I would not explain why.

But I think, this is MS Kakashi who help Nardo unmasked Obito.

Distance is 55 meters and Intel is Manga.

Let's consider this things first:

1. Kakashi had Kamui, his mini genjutsu thatwould not matter, his number of Jutsus he learned from his fights, he does not have anything big enough to fight Itachi's PS, aside from a hax Kamui that nearly phase out the GM head.

2. Itachi had PS with Totsuka and Taya mirror that can be phased out by Kamui, he also had Amaterasu which is slower than Kamui, hie Genjutsu that needs eye contact since Iza is restricted right?  


All in all, Kakashis main weapon is Kamui, and Itachi's will be his Ama since Susanoo can be phased out.

Let's talk about speed, I give this to Kakashi, since he always do mini blitzes in his fights, unlike Itachi who just stand there and let his MS work.

Let's talk about IQ, imo, they were equal, Kakashi has been shown to have great analysis of fight and made fast strategies.  Itachi is a hax ninja who knows what's going to happen.  Itachi is the youngest Anbu member right? And Kakashi is next, but it wont matter much, since this is a match.

As a conslusion, I give this to Kakashi, Kakashi Kamui's PS, if Itachi pulls Ama to Kakashi, Itachi is pahsed out before he managed to burn Kakashi.

Im a Kakashi fan, but my judgements is not bias.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 2, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi had been superior in skill and knowledge for the vast majority of the manga despite being 9 years younger. Hence him having a higher battle IQ being self-evident.
> 
> Most people will use successfully clone-feinting an outnumbered opponent as evidence of Kakashi being more tactically skilled, but that makes about as much sense as Zabuza being #1 in tactical skill.​



Kakashi outsmarted Itachi twice. It doesn't matter if Itachi was outnumbered or not. In both encounters Itachi didn't even have to focus on the other opponents at the time he was outsmarted anyway, so it's a moot point. He was outplayed. Clear as day.

Itachi is no idiot. But Kakashi has way more intelligence hype and actual tactical feats. 

As for Kakashi VS. Itachi, I'm assuming you meant to restrict DMS because that's just a stomp. Pre-DMS is a really close fight, but I think Kakashi has the advantage in more categories than not.

Intelligence:
Kakashi > Itachi

Ninjutsu:
Kakashi > Itachi

Taijutsu:
Kakashi > Itachi

Stamina:
Kakashi > Itachi

Strength:
Kakashi > Itachi

Speed:
Kakashi = Itachi

Genjutsu:
Kakashi < Itachi

But it would probably come down to hax anyway... and Kamui > everything else when it comes to hax. Especially with the level of proficiency that Kakashi put on display in the war arc. Full intel for Kakashi is definitely a clone feint -> Kamui -> Game Over. Or he just skips the clone and goes right for the Kamui... which Itachi simply cannot evade. Obito couldn't even see that Kakashi had warped an entire Naruto clones in an instant it was so fast. Full intel helps Kakashi a lot more than it helps Itachi when Kakashi's hax is faster. Susano is not fast enough to stop Kamui... and even if he gets Susano up, war arc Kakashi can warp an object that size without even draining his stamina.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 2, 2014)

Itachi was focused on Kurenai when Kakashi sent in his clone in part one, and clone-Itachi didn't have the chakra to create a clone. (Whereas he made one in the exact same situation with Bee.)

Neither suggest Kakashi has superior intelligence, only superior circumstantial opportunity. And *factually speaking*, from the databook, 21-year-old Itachi was smarter than 26-year-old Kakashi.

And I'd imagine from his hype of having the wisdom of a Hokage at age 7 that Itachi, like Shikamaru, would have had a 5 in intelligence from a very young age. Kakashi had a 4.5 at age 26. Case closed.

[You can also see that Kakashi at age 13 was an arrogant prick, like Sasuke, who was chastised by Minato. So that's another comparison against Itachi, who was being praised by Hiruzen at age 7.]

In terms of skill, it's pretty straightforward. Itachi's better at genjutsu, which demands chakra control and intellect. Itachi's genjutsu hype is through the roof, so I won't elaborate further.

Itachi's also better at fast seals for precise, quick ninjutsu, which a 17-year-old Itachi _amazed_ a 26-year-old Kakashi with. Kakashi simply has more elements, not more _skill_.

As for taijutsu, we can see that 21-year-old Itachi was both more skilled and a whole tier faster than 26-year-old Kakashi. Itach also has far better quantifiable weapon feats of skill.

Whether 30-year-old Kakashi finally surpassed 17-year-old Itachi in skill is a different debate, but in terms of learning ability, Itachi's vastly superior. Itachi would wreck Kakashi if both were 17.

And IQ is a matter of age, or how developed you are in terms of skill and knowledge at a certain age relative to others at that age.​


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## Invictus-Kun (Nov 2, 2014)

This is War arc Kakashi not Part 1 kakashi, and sincerely, when did Itachi showed his Taijutsu prowess?

His Uchiha Genocide? His fight with Kakashi and Gai during Gaara's capture?

His fight with Sauce before he died?


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## Sadgoob (Nov 2, 2014)

I understand this is War-Arc Kakashi, but as you can see in my first post, I was answering the question regarding intelligence and IQ, which is inherently scaled with age.

And in what fight has Itachi _not_ shown taijutsu skill? He is easily one of the most evasive, physically skilled base characters in the manga, and has been shown keeping pace with sages and cloaked jinchuriki.

I believe War-Arc Kakashi would likewise be capable of this, but War-Arc Kakashi had 13 years more than peak Itachi to grow, whereas Itachi acquired sickness and began to decline, then die.

In a measure of skill-acquisition and intelligence, however, I'll argue for Itachi against any ninja in the series, every time. It's why I like him. Not because of hax, but because of skill and intelligence.​


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## IchLiebe (Nov 2, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi was focused on Kurenai when Kakashi sent in his clone in part one, and clone-Itachi didn't have the chakra to create a clone. (Whereas he made one in the exact same situation with Bee.)​




No he wasn't. Kakashi used a clone on Kisame where you're talking about. Kakashi and Itachi had their own showdown twice and Kakashi bunshin feinted him each time.



> Neither suggest Kakashi has superior intelligence, only superior circumstantial opportunity. And *factually speaking*, from the databook, 21-year-old Itachi was smarter than 26-year-old Kakashi.



Factually speaking Itachi has looked fucking retarded and admitted he was wrong several times while Kakashi has been right about everything he said including stuff like byakugan is a mutation of sharingan. Kakashi has shown more intelligence in the manga.



> And I'd imagine from his hype of having the wisdom of a Hokage at age 7 that Itachi, like Shikamaru, would have had a 5 in intelligence from a very young age. Kakashi had a 4.5 at age 26. Case closed.



Wisdom means jack shit. They said he thought like a Hokage aka Village>Clan. Not a thing to do with being smart. How about Kakashi at age 29?



> You can also see that Kakashi at age 13 was an arrogant prick, like Sasuke, who was chastised by Minato. So that's another comparison against Itachi, who was being praised by Hiruzen at age 7.]



Kakashi was also said to be a chunnin at age 6 while Itachi wasn't until age 8. Kakashi was also a gennin at age 5 while Itachi wasn't till he was age 6. Kakashi also shown to learn rasengan which Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Kakashi was surprised to see Naruto learned it (Tsunade outright said only Jiraiya and Minato could use it and it was useless teaching it to anyone else), and created chidori and became a Jounin (the highest rank besides Hokage as per manga canon) at age 13.



> In terms of skill, it's pretty straightforward. Itachi's better at genjutsu, which demands chakra control and intellect. Itachi's genjutsu hype is through the roof, so I won't elaborate further.



Where does it say it demands those? And you do know Kakashi has both base and sharingan genjutsu.



> Itachi's also better at fast seals for precise, quick ninjutsu, which a 17-year-old Itachi _amazed_ a 26-year-old Kakashi with. Kakashi simply has more elements, not more _skill_.



Elements is skill. You forgot to mention Kakashi kept the same exact pace with Itachi. Both used a suiton and then a bunshin in the same time frame.



> As for taijutsu, we can see that 21-year-old Itachi was both more skilled and a whole tier faster than 26-year-old Kakashi. Itach also has far better quantifiable weapon feats of skill.



Hey, Kakashi is 30 right now. And Kakashi against Obito and jins>>>>Itachi's feat.



> Whether 30-year-old Kakashi finally surpassed 17-year-old Itachi in skill is a different debate, but in terms of learning ability, Itachi's vastly superior. Itachi would wreck Kakashi if both were 17.



The fuck it is. And Kakashi was vastly out of shape at the beginning of part 1. At age 17 he was probably a fucking monster. He had lost Obito, Rin, and Minato. Kakashi had legends about him when he was 13. At that time he was probably throwing down and beating the fuck out of people. And what the fuck did Itachi have, crybaby powers. Kakashi actually trained for his shit.​


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## Invictus-Kun (Nov 2, 2014)

Itachi Died, andhis feats ended and his learnings also.

Kakashi lived and continue to improve in everything.

Kakashi is far better than Itachi.

Can you Imagine Edo Kakashi, cause he can pull strings itachi could not.


So much Itachi wanks but he dies in this match.


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## Santoryu (Nov 2, 2014)

So basically the Kakashi that thought against Sage-Madara? In that case he'd win, albeit with high-difficulty. 



> Whose has the higher battle IQ ?


Kakashi. Rikkudo-tier feats. Itachi does excel in this regard too though. 





> and the ability to learn faster ?


If we disregard Kakashi's feat of mastering PS, I'd be inclined to say Itachi, but it's closer than some may think; the dude's incredible growth rate when it came to learning quickly was emphasised on more than one occcasion. Dude was noted to have the wisdom of a Hokage as a child. But Kakashi excels in this regard too; he graduated the academy quicker than any other shinobi and there's the fact that the Sharingan *is not part of Kakashi's genetic-makeup* yet he still managed to become one of the most skilled dojutsu wielders in the series.

@Start


I really wouldn't take Kakashi's 4.5 intelligence stat at face value. The manga was still at its infancy and after Naruto came back from training he noted that Kakashi was *smarter than Shikimaru*; keep in mind Naruto had not seen Kakashi since part 1. And bringing up the age argument as a detriment to Kakashi is bit of a gray area. Itachi was an Uchiha. Kakashi was not. I don't have to tell you why this had a huge affect on their respective growth rates. 

Itachi probably has more insight and can "read" a person better. Kakashi is the better in battle tactician and was noted by Gai to be the best analyst in the series. But again, both excels in all those areas. I


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## Bonly (Nov 2, 2014)

Kakashi can deal with Itachi's elemental jutsu. Kakashi has Suitons to deal with Itachi's Katons. Itachi can just copy Kakashi Suitons(since Itachi can use Suitons as well) and use it to cancel Kakashi's Suiton if Kakashi uses them. Kakashi also as Dotons such as Moguragakure and Doryūheki to help counter Itachi's Sutions. Kakashi already knows to avoid eye contact with Itachi and had a short fight without looking into Itachi''s eyes successfully so Kakashi will try hard to not fall for any genjutsu that Itachi throws at him via the Sharingan. With Kakashi's increase in speed+stamina throughout the war arc and Kakashi only getting tactically better and already dealing with alot of Itachi's moves, Kakashi can match up to base Itachi while in base for the most part overall wise. 

With that said while Kakashi has a deadly and versatile ninjutsu moveset, Itachi holds the advantage in jutsu speed and with his set ups Itachi can do, it may lead to Itachi landing a hit he might not have before hand. Crows clouding Kakashi's LoS can lead to Kakashi getting genjutsu which in the short time it takes Kakashi to break out, Itachi can take advantage of it and bring out some clones, maybe land a deadly blow(depending on the distance), as we saw with B Itachi used a Katon to blow B's LoS which allowed him to get behind him or when he used a genjutsu followed by a Katon right after words taking advantage of the short time B was under the genjutsu, ect., they can be used to create new openings which might give Itachi the advantage. So they're pretty much even in a base battle.

Now comes the part where it becomes a toss up. MS vs MS. Kakashi can kinda deal with one of Itachi's MS jutsu aka Tsukuyomi due to avoiding eye contact and maybe being able to break out by having an MS(but who knows for sure, although if Kakashi did get caught he'd be done for) but Ama on the other hand which as far as we know he doesn't have any knowledge about besides what it looks like, upon which would be possible for Kakashi to get hit on the first time around. Sure Kakashi can counter it by going underground or putting up a Doryūheki or using smoke bombs to block Itachi's sight to avoid being hit or something but without knowledge of Ama's process,that depends on how things play out. On the flip side Itachi(as far as we know) has no knowledge that Kakashi has Kamui. Itachi hasn't shown the speed to be able to not get hit by it which be a very damaging blow be it taking out a body part like he did against Deidara or be it using Kamui to warp up Itachi entirely like he did Naruto. So it likely comes down to who hits who first with their MS jutsu.

Next is the Susanoo, assuming Itachi brings it out before he dies that is. Kakashi has no Ninjutsu that can get past the Yata Mirror nor any jutsu strong enough to break through it or Susanoo itself, all he can do is use Kamui to try and get rid of big chunks or suck up all of it. Likewise Susanoo isn't something Itachi can keep up for long periods of time due to the drain he feels. Itachi was able to quickly cut off alot of Orochi's snake heads and his sword has good reach so Itachi can slice up Kakashi or seal him if Kakashi is pierced. Itachi has Yasaka no Magatama for some range attacking but Kakashi could likely dodge it. And while Itachi can do all of this with his Susanoo, he may not be able to successfully do so in a fight depending on his chakra levels.

I feel that this is a 50/50 shot here mainly due to the whole Ama vs Kamui thing since Kakashi and Itachi take each other out in one hit before Susanoo is brought out as well as it being due to a question of who can trick who the best with their set ups to land the deadly blow which could go either way imo. Itachi would seem to have the advantage when full Susanoo comes into play but Kakashi could outlast Itachi after his stamina boost the war arc and after has given him. Either way its a 50/50 shot here imo. Kakashi has gotten very stronger and on the same level as Itachi in the general area imo

Edit: Whoops didn't pay much attention to OP, didn't see it was full knowledge and it was healthy Itachi, ignore the above if ya want


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## LeBoyka (Nov 3, 2014)

*I can't see Kakashi beating Susanoo*. Outside of Susanoo, Kakashi should win more times than not. But as of now, he loses.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 3, 2014)

^Kamui isn't stopped by Susanoo since Susanoo doesn't block LOS.


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## Morimoto (Nov 3, 2014)

Wow, this is a really close fight. I'd say Kakashi takes this about 6/10 times.


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## Gibbs (Nov 3, 2014)

Headhunter jutsu Kakashi sneak attack from the ground, into a raikiri up the ass.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 3, 2014)

The tactical gap between them is negligible imo given both their propensities to utilize clones and feint targets to exploit openings.

The biggest difference between them is Itachi has Tsukiyomi and Susano'o. There both smart, but Itachi simply has more raw power both offensively and defensively imo. 

Obito's kamui is one thing; but I don't think Kakashi's iteration of Kamui is equivalent to Itachi's full MS trio further amped by legendary items.

They can potentially engage in an oneshot battle that is dominated by  clones and only Amaterasu/Kamui, but I don't see why Itachi'd resort to that when he has two other MS techniques.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 3, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> The tactical gap between them is negligible imo given both their propensities to utilize clones and feint targets to exploit openings.
> 
> The biggest difference between them is Itachi has Tsukiyomi and Susano'o. There both smart, but Itachi simply has more raw power both offensively and defensively imo.
> 
> ...



In my opinion, Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu are almost a non-factor here. It was implied that Kakashi could counter Tsukiyomi once he unlocked his own Mangekyo. He also knows how to fight while avoiding eye contact. As for Amaterasu... I mean... when have we ever seen Amaterasu actually do anything lethal to anyone who wasn't fodder? Seriously... it's pretty useless going off of feats and not hype. Kakashi can also go in and out of boxland which would most likely get rid of any flames on himself (this is likely what Obito did). Not to mention that Kakashi always opens with a clone and that also makes both these techniques useless. 

Susano is the only real threat to Kakashi. But we know that Kamui works on Susano and we know that Kakashi can warp objects much larger than Susano... so... there's that.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 4, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> In my opinion, Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu are almost a non-factor here. It was implied that Kakashi could counter Tsukiyomi once he unlocked his own Mangekyo. He also knows how to fight while avoiding eye contact. As for Amaterasu... I mean... when have we ever seen Amaterasu actually do anything lethal to anyone who wasn't fodder? Seriously... it's pretty useless going off of feats and not hype. Kakashi can also go in and out of boxland which would most likely get rid of any flames on himself (this is likely what Obito did). Not to mention that Kakashi always opens with a clone and that also makes both these techniques useless.
> 
> Susano is the only real threat to Kakashi. But we know that Kamui works on Susano and we know that Kakashi can warp objects much larger than Susano... so... there's that.



Kakashi's  feats off warping larging items then susano came from when he was amped by kuramas chakra.


It was never implied kakashi could break tsukiyomi, in fact shouten itachi told kakashi he wouldn't use tsukiyomi, and kakashi still tried his very best to avoid eye contact while fighting itachi.

Kakashi was doing pretty good at avoiding eye contact but itachi has ways to force him into and then theres finger genjutsu.


If kakashi goes into boxland the flames would still be on him, as anything that touches obito while he warps goes with him. Most people believe obito used izanagi to survive amatarasu.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 4, 2014)

> It was implied that Kakashi could counter Tsukiyomi once he unlocked his own Mangekyo.


 The opposite was implied imo Semiotic. Kakashi seemed to show Itachi his mangekyou sharingan in this panel[1][2],. Despite this, Itachi still tried to make eye contact and Kakashi still tried to avoid eye contact[3]. Kakashi isn't privy to all of Itachi's methods of ensnaring targets either. He's shown he can seal Mangekyou Genjutsu into the crows he uses and without knowledge that may catch him unaware.



> As for Amaterasu... I mean... when have we ever seen Amaterasu actually do anything lethal to anyone who wasn't fodder? Seriously... it's pretty useless going off of feats and not hype. Kakashi can also go in and out of boxland which would most likely get rid of any flames on himself (this is likely what Obito did).


 Featwise, in what was a clear stomp in Killer Bee's favor, it immediately ended the fight between Taka and Killer Bee in Taka's favor, and would of led to KB's capture if not for Sasuke cutting off his tentacle in a bid to save Karin. Additionally, It was also only ever dodged by the "fastest man" in his fastest form with prior knowledge that it was about to be used on him. 

Box world warping and back maybe a counter, wasn't considering that. Obito has more mastery of kamui but I don't see why kakashi would be unable to replicate it to some degree. Still, that involves Kakashi warping his whole being twice, to counter only 1 amaterasu usage of Itachi.



> Not to mention that Kakashi always opens with a clone and that also makes both these techniques useless.


Itachi almost always begins battles with clones as well. Only battles he hasn't are against Jiraiya and Orochimaru iirc, but those are more outliers than the norm.



> Susano is the only real threat to Kakashi.


 I think Tsukiyomi's lethal if it lands. Amaterasu we'd have to see, but I think Kamui can counter it albeit not without cost. 





> But we know that Kamui works on Susano and we know that Kakashi can warp objects much larger than Susano... so... there's that.


Kakashi credited the hachibi warp to kurama's chakra, which is a 3x power increase.


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## Hasan (Nov 4, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Kakashi credited the hachibi warp to kurama's chakra, which is a 3x power increase.



He severed the Mazou's arm, while hardly at his peak condition. The Akatsuki used to stand atop the Mazou's fingers for the bijū-extraction. Itachi's Susano'o, along with Itachi himself, gets warped away pretty comfortably.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 4, 2014)

Hasan said:


> He severed the Mazou's arm, while hardly at his peak condition. The Akatsuki used to stand atop the Mazou's fingers for the bijū-extraction. Itachi's Susano'o, along with Itachi himself, gets warped away pretty comfortably.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 4, 2014)

Hasan said:


> He severed the Mazou's arm, while hardly at his peak condition. The Akatsuki used to stand atop the Mazou's fingers for the bijū-extraction. Itachi's Susano'o, along with Itachi himself, gets warped away pretty comfortably.



Im sure itachi's susano is alot wider then the mazo's arm we also have to consider that fact.

Then theres also the fact that your assuming kakashi will be in peak condition, by the time susano comes into play.

By then im 100 percent sure kakashi will have used a couple of bushins along with his other base jutsu, so it's very unlikley that he will be in peak condition by the time itachi's trump comes into play.

We also have to consider kakashi had support and was able to focus alot easier.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 4, 2014)

I'm not sure the area Kakashi warped is bigger than Itachi's Susano'o.
Mazou's fingers The arm is bent, so he didn't have to create a barrier the length of the arm either.
Itachi's Susano'o Mazou's fingers .

The size seems to vary from panel to panel but these two have human objects in them for scale comparison.


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## Icegaze (Nov 4, 2014)

am frankly of the belief that since susanoo can casually troll amaterasu it should be able to at least defend against kamui. you know being that susanoo is the MS ultimate technique and all. I see no reason why the barrier created by kamui cant be shifted off by susanoo. Also activation speed of susanoo is clearly equal to that of kamui 
lastly if itachi camps in susanoo he can easily pressure kakashi who will need to wrap the whole susanoo. 
Kamui should not be able to simply target and wrap itachi while he is in susanoo. So its either kakashi wraps the whole thing or dies trying


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## Hasan (Nov 4, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Im sure itachi's susano is alot wider then the mazo's arm we also have to consider that fact.



Actually, no. The Susanō version that Itachi is capable isn't exactly humongous. I sincerely doubt that it covers the space between two of Mazō's fingers, let alone the entire hand. Here is a better estimate, coupled with preceding scans (I believe that's Kisame—the tallest among the Akatsuki). 

The chakra required to pull out that arm can easily create a barrier space that can envelope several Susanō of that size.

If it helps then he also blasted an explosion and a Susanō arrow this long (it's not even shown completely) — neither width, nor the height is an issue.



> Then theres also the fact that your assuming kakashi will be in peak condition, by the time susano comes into play.
> 
> By then im 100 percent sure kakashi will have used a couple of bushins along with his other base jutsu, so it's very unlikley that he will be in peak condition by the time itachi's trump comes into play.



Uh, Kakashi was _*not*_ at his peak strength (was what I said); was pretty much beat up from his fight with Obito, and his fights prior.



> We also have to consider kakashi had support and was able to focus alot easier.



Kakashi used Kamui at extreme speeds, considering Mazō teleported, when it happened. It was a "miss" considering he originally intended to decapitate the Mazō. Support had no influence.



Lawrence777 said:


> I'm not sure the area Kakashi warped is bigger than Itachi's Susano'o.



It is _much_ bigger, compared to the barrier area you would require for a Susanō. As noted earlier, the hand alone is massive, along with its head, which Kakashi also tried to warp.



> along with its head The arm is bent, so he didn't have to create a barrier the length of the arm either.
> Itachi's Susano'o along with its head .
> 
> The size seems to vary from panel to panel but these two have human objects in them for scale comparison.



The angle is rather poor, I would say. If you look to the next page, the Susanō is actually quite small, while the linked page is giving it an illusion that it is about the size of that hydra. This and this seem a better depiction of its size, in my opinion.


​
The circle is its _scarf_ (refer to the first panel of the eariler scan), apparently. 

Admittedly, it sounds like a stretch, but power-levels have been on-and-off for quite a long time now. Kakashi has come a long way too. If it comes down to Kamui, then with the level of proficiency that he had at the time, his Sharingan was stolen, then it's game-over for pretty much anyone, barring Obito (and stronger than Obito opponents, like Madara or Hashirama).



Icegaze said:


> I see no reason why the barrier created by kamui cant be shifted off by susanoo.



Kamui warped away the all-jutsu-negating Gudōdama without a hitch. The Susanō, along with its weapons, in all likelihood will take express ticket to the Kamui Timespace.


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 4, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> am frankly of the belief that since susanoo can casually troll amaterasu it should be able to at least defend against kamui. you know being that susanoo is the MS ultimate technique and all. I see no reason why the barrier created by kamui cant be shifted off by susanoo. Also activation speed of susanoo is clearly equal to that of kamui
> lastly if itachi camps in susanoo he can easily pressure kakashi who will need to wrap the whole susanoo.
> Kamui should not be able to simply target and wrap itachi while he is in susanoo. So its either kakashi wraps the whole thing or dies trying



Kakashi's Kamui warped Juubi Madara's Gudodama shield and Gudodama nullifies ninjutsu, when used by Obito it erased also Susanoo. Kamui warp Susanoo like everything else.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Nov 4, 2014)

Hasan
The size depiction between this panel[1] and this panel[2] are gargantuan. I don't know how to go about rectifying the disparity or whether Kishi retconned it's size, but if the image were consistent the hand and arm near Kakashi should of been significantly bigger. 

The Hydra technique is much larger than Susano'o, I don't see how the image I linked would of implied they were of similar size, but I guess it did.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 4, 2014)

Will full knowledge they both oh snaps to their MS.

But Kakashi's kamui is faster than anything Itachi's anything has ever done, so he loses.  full knowledge fights between people with win buttons are boring and short.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Will full knowledge they both oh snaps to their MS.
> 
> But Kakashi's kamui is faster than anything Itachi's anything has ever done, so he loses.  full knowledge fights between people with win buttons are boring and short.



To be fair, Kamui has literally no offensive usage in direct combat. It is either used as a defensive measure, or a means of interception or support. 
Its really not possible to compare it to Amaterasu in that regard.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 4, 2014)

Hasan said:


> Actually, no. The Susanō version that Itachi is capable isn't exactly humongous.



Its size fluctuates.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 4, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> To be fair, Kamui has literally no offensive usage in direct combat. It is either used as a defensive measure, or a means of interception or support.
> Its really not possible to compare it to Amaterasu in that regard.




This is a close match regardless. But there is no reason Kamui can not be used in direct combat. 

*Base Kakashi > Sharingan-less Itachi

3T Itachi > 3T Kakashi

DMS Itachi = 1 MS Kakashi

DMS Kakashi >>>>>>> DMS Itachi*


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 4, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> This is a close match regardless. But there is no reason Kamui can not be used in direct combat.
> 
> *Base Kakashi > Sharingan-less Itachi
> 
> ...



There fixed it for you


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 4, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> To be fair, Kamui has literally no offensive usage in direct combat. It is either used as a defensive measure, or a means of interception or support.
> Its really not possible to compare it to Amaterasu in that regard.



wat. 

Kamui has done far more damage than Amaterasu in this manga, defensively or not.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 5, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> wat.
> 
> Kamui has done far more damage than Amaterasu in this manga, defensively or not.



Not really, no. 

The most damage Kakashi has done on anyone with Kamui was on Deidara, he got his arm. 



JuicyG said:


> This is a close match regardless. But there is no reason Kamui can not be used in direct combat.
> 
> 
> DMS Itachi = 1 MS Kakashi



Whats  this horseshit ? Itachi is decisively stronger than 1 MS Kakashi.


----------



## Azula (Nov 5, 2014)

Susanoo can't protect itachi , its see through, goodbye itachi's head


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 5, 2014)

I think both Amaterasu and Kamui work by projecting chakra through the eyes, and if there is something between your target and the projected chakra, then it might not work.


----------



## Azula (Nov 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think both Amaterasu and Kamui work by projecting chakra through the eyes, and if there is something between your target and the projected chakra, then it might not work.



his own Rasengan
his own Rasengan


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think both Amaterasu and Kamui work by projecting chakra through the eyes, and if there is something between your target and the projected chakra, then it might not work.



Don't even use Amaterasu in the same phrase of Kamui. Also not, Kamui directly appears on the objective. And even if, for absurd, it moved, it would warp everything it is on his way. So no.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 5, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Don't even use Amaterasu in the same phrase of Kamui. Also not, Kamui directly appears on the objective. And even if, for absurd, it moved, it would warp everything it is on his way. So no.



Amatarasu appears directly on the target as well, only cases when it doesn't is when it's manipulated by eton or redirected.

They both are similar because both give you a small window to react, and speedsters can avoid both as the forth did to obito.


They both rely on the visual focus of the caster which is why kakashi only managed to hit diedaras arm when he was flying.

Only difference is kamui has a larger aoe and  it can be used as a nice defensive tool as well as offense.


But in this case theres little kakashi or itachi can do if one or the other gets hit with there respective ms techniques.


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 5, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Amatarasu appears directly on the target as well, only cases when it doesn't is when it's manipulated by eton or redirected.
> 
> They both are similar because both give you a small window to react, and speedsters can avoid both as the forth did to obito.
> 
> ...


Manga panels are available to everyone, and nearly everyone says than Kamui >>> Amaterasu. Not accounting the other Kamui powers (teleporting, phasing, shooting warped things) or DMS/Rikudo version obviously. Amaterasu it's at best comparable to early Shippuden Kakashi's Kamui, and when it was used without any charge to warp away a forest-sized explosion... not, not even.

Kamui is faster. Better. More haxxed. Nearly uncounterable while the other has been countered in so many ways I forgot, and there are a lot of more other counters. Everything Amaterasu can do: Kamui can warp. That should be enough:

MS Kakashi's Kamui by Madara (chapter 659)

​
EMS Sasuke's Amaterasu by Madara (chapter 657)

​
Fucking Edo fucking Itachi's casting of Amaterasu is slower than Killer Bee fucking throwing a fucking sword (1) that is dodged with ease by fucking base Fuu (2). Kakashi with long range Kamui could warp head sized objects in the same window of time of Obito's intangibility and of a movement of 5 cm from KCM Naruto, or before being hit by something kicked by SM Juubi jinchuriki Madara while being already touched by it, human sized masses so fast that people with full knowledge and top notch reflexes boosted by Mangekyo Sharingan and Rinnegan vision couldn't perceive the warping happening in front of their eyes (namely Obito ofc) and that before a Kamui shooted stake that was hitting BM Naruto could move for more than a couple of cm, giant sized masses in the same time of the instant summon of the Summoning Jutsu, with KCM Minato not understanding what happened. 

Offensive Kamui (if you want strictly offensive feats, no supporting or defense) could warp away a Gedo Mazo arm while he was summoned with S/T, in no time, with KCM Minato not being able to register what happened. Just think how big the Gedo's arm is, how much time is needed to summon something once Kuchiyose no jutsu has started, how high is KCM Minato's perception and his reflexes.

Not even going for DMS Rikudo Kakashi that can use Kamui so fast that it outspeeds Kaguya's S/T that blitzed Rinnegan Rikudo Sasuke. I don't think I need to say anything else.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 5, 2014)

-Azula- said:


> 2
> 2



cool, so Amaterasu can snipe targets inside Susano'o as well 



Raikiri19 said:


> Don't even use Amaterasu in the same phrase of Kamui. Also not, Kamui directly appears on the objective. And even if, for absurd, it moved, it would warp everything it is on his way. So no.



Amaterasu directly appears as well, check the scans Azula provided.



Raikiri19 said:


> Manga panels are available to everyone, and nearly everyone says than Kamui >>> Amaterasu. Not accounting the other Kamui powers (teleporting, phasing, shooting warped things) or DMS/Rikudo version obviously. Amaterasu it's at best comparable to early Shippuden Kakashi's Kamui, and when it was used without any charge to warp away a forest-sized explosion... not, not even.
> 
> Kamui is faster. Better. More haxxed. Nearly uncounterable while the other has been countered in so many ways I forgot, and there are a lot of more other counters. Everything Amaterasu can do: Kamui can warp. That should be enough:
> 
> ...



Wow and I thought Minato tards were bad


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> cool, so Amaterasu can snipe targets inside Susano'o as well
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Try another time. Susanoo user can make everything go out from Susanoo to the outside at his will. It's not like everyone can make things enter Susanoo from the outside, unless you want to argue that Susanoo actually is useless.

Well, you never know. So you conceded.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 5, 2014)

anyone who's slightly above Hebi Sasuke's level would beat itachi. He just get wanked way to much, and people put him way above his actual level that Kishi putted him at. :/


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 5, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Try another time. Susanoo user can make everything go out from Susanoo to the outside at his will. It's not like everyone can make things enter Susanoo from the outside, unless you want to argue that Susanoo actually is useless.
> 
> Well, you never know. So you conceded.



Again, check the scans Azula provided. There is evidence that Amaterasu didn't travel, because if it did, then it would melt the ice starting from the area where Sasuke's eyes were @. It simply appeared. So yes, the jutsu can be cast through transparent objects, it is confirmed.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, check the scans Azula provided. There is evidence that Amaterasu didn't travel, because if it did, then it would melt the ice starting from the area where Sasuke's eyes were @. It simply appeared. So yes, the jutsu can be cast through transparent objects, it is confirmed.



itachi was defeated by 16 years old kid with ragular sharingan. How is he going to handle Kakashi with MS? 

not to mention his more experienced, knowledgable, and smarter as well. Pretty much superior to itachi in everything, except the Genjutsu. Which won't even work against Kakashi.


----------



## Icegaze (Nov 5, 2014)

and it wont work because hussain said so 
clearly


----------



## Trojan (Nov 5, 2014)

I'm so happy now that I don't know what are you talking about.


----------



## Legend777 (Nov 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, check the scans Azula provided. There is evidence that Amaterasu didn't travel, because if it did, then it would melt the ice starting from the area where Sasuke's eyes were @. It simply appeared. So yes, the jutsu can be cast through transparent objects, it is confirmed.



[1]

[1]

But it didn't bypass the kyuubi cloak . I wonder why ?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> itachi was defeated by 16 years old kid with ragular sharingan. How is he going to handle Kakashi with MS?
> 
> not to mention his more experienced, knowledgable, and smarter as well. Pretty much superior to itachi in everything, except the Genjutsu. Which won't even work against Kakashi.



Yeah, unlike Minato, Itachi was going easy on the 16 year old. 




Legend777 said:


> [1]
> 
> [1]
> 
> But it didn't bypass the kyuubi cloak . I wonder why ?



Amaterasu came in contact with Naruto's skin first, but it burns so fucking slow that Naruto was able to manifest a shroud and remove it from his skin in  time.

I guess base Naruto's skin is more heat resistant than a CS powered Katon which Amaterasu engulfed within a second.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 5, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Manga panels are available to everyone, and nearly everyone says than Kamui >>> Amaterasu. Not accounting the other Kamui powers (teleporting, phasing, shooting warped things) or DMS/Rikudo version obviously. Amaterasu it's at best comparable to early Shippuden Kakashi's Kamui, and when it was used without any charge to warp away a forest-sized explosion... not, not even.
> 
> Kamui is faster. Better. More haxxed. Nearly uncounterable while the other has been countered in so many ways I forgot, and there are a lot of more other counters. Everything Amaterasu can do: Kamui can warp. That should be enough:
> 
> ...




My response was in reference to kakashies kamui working similar to how amatarasu works in terms of field of vision i never brought up which was better so i take it you agree with my points?

Edo itachi amatarasu was interrupted by the cast of koto i can provide scans of amatarasu working much faster and even suprising sage kabuto who was fast enough to dodge sasuke's arrow while kakashi was force to react with kamui, so you can try to downplay amatarasu but the fact is amatarasu and *kakashi's* kamui have about the same kill rate.

If where comparing both ms eyes then of course both kamui > amatarsu 

Most of your examples revolve around a amped kakashi being powered by either hagoromo or kyubi chakra.


Or a kakashi having back up and is able to fully focus on using kamui while not being pressured by his opponent.

Also consider amatarasu was one of the reasons they was able to beat kaguya as she would of used her space time jutsu but didn't  becase sasukes amatarasu would of trolled her ice dimension


----------



## Trojan (Nov 5, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, unlike Minato, Itachi was going easy on the 16 year old.
> .



he used his strongest jutsus, and he got overwhelmed and got killed. Even Tayuya, 14 or 15 years old soloed him with 1 move. U_U


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 5, 2014)

Hussain said:


> anyone who's slightly above Hebi Sasuke's level would beat itachi.



It's absurd statements like this that lead to counter-radicalism.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 5, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> It's absurd statements like this that lead to counter-radicalism.



you can re-read the battle, and then actually go to the Databook and see Kishi's explanation to the battle. 

Even if we arguably assumed itachi is even more than that, he's not at much higher level. he's below the current kages. U_U


----------



## Hasan (Nov 6, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Hasan
> The size depiction between this panel[1] and this panel[2] are gargantuan. I don't know how to go about rectifying the disparity or whether Kishi retconned it's size, but if the image were consistent the hand and arm near Kakashi should of been significantly bigger.



It is, so we will just let it slip as a minor error, and pretend that it is as big as we were originally led to believe. We have been provided a fairly accurate description of the statue's size, so the ambiguity in it due to more frequent appearnces should have no impact on how huge it actually is. We cannot pretend that Akatsuki fancying themselves standing on its massive fingers never happened, now can we? Its size remained more or less consistent [1, 2], until it started appearing more frequently towards the Jūbi's resurrection (and onwards).

Not that I deny that Kishimoto has been fairly inconsistent in sizes (Hachibi is a prime example). . . Rest assured, Gedō Mazō (or its limbs) are huge ? being the moon's core 'n all. The Susanō is not really comparable, barring its complete form, dubbed the _Perfect Susanō_.



> The Hydra technique is much larger than Susano'o, I don't see how the image I linked would of implied they were of similar size, but I guess it did.



Ah, I thought you insinuated that Susanō is enormous in size. It is big, which I do not deny, only that the size is no problem for Kakashi.



Strategoob said:


> Its size fluctuates.



Well, not to an extent where it would pose problems for Kakashi, who had no problems warping away bigger targets comfortably ? after gaining experience points for Kamui.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Nov 6, 2014)

unless kakashi has the 10 minute-susanoo shenanigans, he loses to Itachi, soundly.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2014)

Hasan said:


> Well, not to an extent where it would pose problems for Kakashi, who had no problems warping away bigger targets comfortably ? after gaining experience points for Kamui.



He warped Hachibee with the chakra boost from Kurama.

Without any sort of help the biggest thing he warped was Gedo's arm which isn't bigger than Itachi's Susano'o. And Gedo is a statue that can't retaliate in any way or form. 

Kakashi is good as a turret. But thats all there is to it.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He warped Hachibee with the chakra boost from Kurama.
> 
> Without any sort of help the biggest thing he warped was Gedo's arm which isn't bigger than Itachi's Susano'o. *And Gedo is a statue that can't retaliate in any way or form. *
> 
> Kakashi is good as a turret. But thats all there is to it.



Well the Gedo was fighting Choji and a few others at the end of the first day of war so I'd say it can retaliate. Unless you mean the Gedo couldn't retaliate in that situation due to being summoned, in which never mind the post.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Well the Gedo was fighting Choji and a few others at the end of the first day of war so I'd say it can retaliate. Unless you mean the Gedo couldn't retaliate in that situation due to being summoned, in which never mind the post.



Gedo wasn't in its active state. Thats what I meant.


----------



## Hasan (Nov 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He warped Hachibee with the chakra boost from Kurama.
> 
> Without any sort of help the biggest thing he warped was Gedo's arm which isn't bigger than Itachi's Susano'o.



​
No. It is actually. . . much bigger. Even going by its recent depiction, this thing is enormous?even its head and limbs. Kakashi ripped off one limb, while almost did the same to its head. Itachi's Susano'o hardly compares.



> And Gedo is a statue that can't retaliate in any way or form.



It teleported and Kakashi took out its arm. No ?

The only reason it was the arm, because it teleported. Kamui execution was exceedingly fast, which also explains Madara?s surprise. The ability to retaliate will not issue ? this is not the novice Kakashi who struggled to maintain the barrier space against Deidara.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2014)

Going with its recent depiction, its arm isn't bigger than Susano'o.




Hasan said:


> It teleported and Kakashi took out its arm. No —
> 
> The only reason it was the arm, because it teleported. Kamui execution was exceedingly fast, which also explains Madara’s surprise. The ability to retaliate will not issue – this is not the novice Kakashi who struggled to maintain the barrier space against Deidara.



Gedo is a huge immobile target. Not the hardest kamui target.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 8, 2014)

In what depiction is Gedo Mazo's arm not bigger than Susanoo?

Because in all of its depictions thus far, it's been bigger, if not by a large degree. Itachi's final Susanoo is like the size of Gedo Mazo's *head*. An entire arm would be greater in size considerably.


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gedo is a huge immobile target. Not the hardest kamui target.



Gedo was moving when Kakashi kamui'd it.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 8, 2014)

Not to mention it's not like Itachi would be moving at high speeds with that giant chakra construct lumbering with him. 

Kakashi's reactions are easily fast enough to keep track of Itachi's movements anyways.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 8, 2014)

After recent chapters and DBIV I feel like Kakashi completely outclasses Itachi outside of Mangekyo-Sharingan. And while Is still feel like Itachi is a bit ahead of Kakashi in Mangekyo-Sharingan abilities, Kakashi has made up a-lot of ground where that's concerned in the war. At his best he could use MS more times than Itachi and it's pretty obvious given Amaterasu shafting that Long-Range Kamui has it beat and is arguably more dangerous than Tsukuyomi as well; though I suppose the different aspects of Ama and Tsukuyomi give Itachi more options. As for defense warping into the Kamui dimension and out is probably better than the Susano'o stages Itachi has, albeit more taxing unless Itachi utilizes S4, and it's ability to attack is also fairly dangerous. Anyway like I said Itachi still has the edge with Susano'o, but I don't think it's enough to make up for the rather large gap in skills outside of MS. So i'd give Kakashi the edge here.


----------



## Ashi (Nov 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Amaterasu came in contact with Naruto's skin first, but it burns so fucking slow that Naruto was able to manifest a shroud and remove it from his skin in  time.
> 
> I guess base Naruto's skin is more heat resistant than a CS powered Katon which Amaterasu engulfed within a second.



Nice Fanfic mah boi


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 9, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> In what depiction is Gedo Mazo's arm not bigger than Susanoo?
> 
> Because in all of its depictions thus far, it's been bigger, if not by a large degree. Itachi's final Susanoo is like the size of Gedo Mazo's *head*. An entire arm would be greater in size considerably.



Comparing its size when Madara summoned it. The arm certainly isn't bigger than this : here



IchLiebe said:


> Gedo was moving when Kakashi kamui'd it.



It wasn't.  The only times Gedo moved was when it had all the bijuu chakra in it and when Nagato synced with it and gave it his own chakra.


----------



## Hasan (Nov 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Going with its recent depiction, its arm isn't bigger than Susano'o.



That is what remained of its arm, and it's still projecting a comparable ?if not bigger? size. The chakra pumped into the eye to create a barrier that encapsulated a much bigger area can easily pull in a few Susanō and that's hardly an exaggeration.

But as I already said, a minor art inconsistency can be ignored. We have already seen a close-up that gives an accurate description of its size, compared to a human. 



> Gedo is a huge immobile target. Not the hardest kamui target.



It _moved_ when Kakashi used Kamui. If you can snag a teleporting target, then regular movements should not a problem ? especially for an experienced Sharingan-user. Also, It's not like Kakashi has not warped away mobile targets before, and Itachi's Susano'o is not really a contender for fastest entity ever.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It wasn't.  The only times Gedo moved was when it had all the bijuu chakra in it and when Nagato synced with it and gave it his own chakra.



It did. Why do you think the statue's arm was taken out, and not the head?


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 9, 2014)

That is not bigger than this...


Not even close. Look how tiny Madara is compared to the people in the first pic. Accounting for the different angles, PS is _maybe_ as big as Gedo's head. Which Kakashi was prepared to warp entirely. 

If Kakashi places his Kamui directly on Susano, centered on Itachi's position... Itachi is gone. Period. He doesn't even need to warp the entire Susano. The same mass that Kakashi warped with Gedo's arm is more than enough to account for Itachi and any chunk of Susano surrounding him.


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 9, 2014)

Its done been proven that Kamui wouldn't be stopped by Susanoo due to it being transparent. This was shown when Sasuke was encased in Ice, yet his Amaterasu didn't pop up onto his face.


----------



## Ashi (Nov 9, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Its done been proven that Kamui wouldn't be stopped by Susanoo due to it being transparent. This was shown when Sasuke was encased in Ice, yet his Amaterasu didn't pop up onto his face.



Naruto's chakra cloak is also transparent


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 9, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Naruto's chakra cloak is also transparent



I don't think so. You don't see Naruto's skin, you see the cloak.


----------



## Ashi (Nov 9, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I don't think so. You don't see Naruto's skin, you see the cloak.



I see his skin fine


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 9, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I see his skin fine



I'm pretty sure it hit his arm and then he used the chakra to force it off his arm. In the bottom left panel he has no cloak.


----------



## Ashi (Nov 9, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I'm pretty sure it hit his arm and then he used the chakra to force it off his arm. In the bottom left panel he has no cloak.



The bottom right one is only a close up of that panel 

Clearly you can't tell his shroud is there because it's covered in black flames


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 9, 2014)

I don't see any cloak in one panel. Then the next panel the cloak is on his arm, and the next time we see Naruto's body, he's covered in a cloak. Seeing as how the cloak has always come out all over the body and never from the arm and then the body, I say it hit his skin.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Comparing its size when Madara summoned it. The arm certainly isn't bigger than this : _you can see the same leaf shinobi standing next to him as before Minato got there. _



Are you serious? Itachi's final Susanoo is about 8-9 times his own height.



That ratio is pretty much identical to Madara and Gedo Statue's head.

Or here, take this for reference:



Madara is as tall as one of the Gedo Statue's eyes. You would agree that its head is around 8 times larger than its eye, no?

We haven't even accounted for the fact that the Gedo Statue's arm is *much longer* than its head, so overall, the area it encompasses far exceeds Itachi's Susanoo.


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 11, 2014)

What does it matter?

SUSANOO CAN'T STOP KAMUI.

Susanoo is transparent. Kamui doesn't travel, it appears where the user looks and wants it to appear. Nothing is stopping Kakashi from seeing Itachi when he is inside Susanoo. Sasuke proved this by making Amaterasu not appear right on him when he used it encased in a block of ice.

So why the fuck are we even arguing this? Its done been proven that MS techs, such as Amaterasu and Kamui(which I've always stated should be able to), can circumvent Susanoo's defense.


And TastyMuffin, there is almost no point in arguing with Grimmjow. He's been grasping straws for ages now. And now since the end of the manga and the new databook has come out he is extremely butthurt that Itachi has been shown to be no where near as great as he thought he was.  Like Nagato being completely immune to visual genjutsu. Then tries to discredit the databooks for anything thats not Itachi, and still preaches about how YM is invincible. He cherry picks throughout the manga and find the most ridiculous comparisons possible.

Like Susanoo being even comparable in size to GM...like ...fucking seriously.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Nov 11, 2014)

i still don't see kakashi warping something that size while he's being pressured tbh


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 11, 2014)

^HE DON"T HAVE TO.


He can see Itachi through Susanoo. Thus can Kamui Itachi, without Kamuing Susanoo. Unless you are saying that Kakashi can't warp a normal sized human.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 11, 2014)

Honestly, they are essentially the same characters (in terms of ability, strength, intelligence, speed) in different flavors, one's an Uchiha and the other isn't. You can fight for days who is better, Kakashi has a couple of advantages but so does Itachi, so you never know who would come out on top.


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## Ashi (Nov 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I don't see any cloak in one panel. Then the next panel the cloak is on his arm, and the next time we see Naruto's body, he's covered in a cloak. Seeing as how the cloak has always come out all over the body and never from the arm and then the body, I say it hit his skin.



Maybe it manifested from his arm first?


If it hit skin Kishi would've shown it not given us some panned out shot


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## Edo Madara (Dec 7, 2014)

Itachi's best change is tsukuyomi but Kakashi will keep his distance and kamui snipe him and Yata mirror get kamui'ed, Kakashi wins.


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## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

Am still of the opinion Kakashi cannot wrap V4 susanoo
Since he said kyuubi chakra made his kamui 3 times the size of it normally and he had issues wrapping full hachibi

Now unless he can wrap full susanoo he won't win. The chakra layers in front of itachi prevent a head kamui snipe 

The chakra in front of itachi blocks LoS it's retarded to think otherwise 

For this reason I think itachi wins 

Without kamui Kakashi simply can't beat itachi


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