# school bars transgendered 1st-grader from using girls' restroom



## Wilykat (Feb 27, 2013)

> (CNN) -- Just like she did during the first half of the school year, first grader Coy Mathis wants to use the girls' restroom at her Colorado elementary school. But school officials won't let her.
> The reason? Coy is transgendered, born with male sex organs but a child who identifies herself as female.
> She has dressed as a girl for most of last year. And her passport and state-issued identification recognize her as female.
> In December, the Fountain-Fort Carson School District informed Coy's parents that Coy would be barred from using the girls' restrooms at Eagleside Elementary in Fountain after winter break.
> ...



By making someone who looks like girl and dresses like a girl go into boy's room, the school is defiantly encouraging potential bullying and harassment. Not to mention what happens if this transgendered girl goes into the bathroom at the same time as a horny 6th grader boy who doesn't know she has a pee-pee?  sex assault!!!

At the same time it is hard to handle transgenered kid.  They are quite rare so building extra bathroom just for them is not practical.


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## navy (Feb 27, 2013)

_Coy is transgendered, born with male sex organs_


I dont see a problem.


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## Smiley (Feb 27, 2013)

She? He's a boy.

A place of primary education isn't a particularly great place to try and confuse children about the concept of gender. Well, no, actually, I take that back. I suppose it is the _perfect_ place to try and confuse children about the concept of gender, if that's your demented goal. 

Get 'em while they're young, so that they don't know what the hell they are when they grow up, leaving them bewildered, emasculated and thus wonderfully malleable adults.

Just exactly how willfully stupid is our species trying to become?


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## Taco (Feb 27, 2013)

How the fuck does a 9 year old make such a decision...? It's obvious the parents are behind some of it... I mean they even dyed their 9 year old's hair purple?

Wacky ass parents lol. Good luck to the kid, though. It's important for the parents to consider the comfort of other kids.. It's a risky situation letting a little girl with male genitals into the girl's restroom.


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## Zaru (Feb 27, 2013)

Bathrooms are this kid's smallest issue. Now pretty much everyone in his daily life will think that she's a "freak" (kids are horrible, I don't need to explain this to anyone). Unless some miracle happens, Mathis will grow up to have severe mental issues.


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## Griever (Feb 27, 2013)

The kids a boy, of course he's not going to be allowed into the girls restroom. i can just imagine the shitstorm that would ensue if the elementary school suddenly made the restrooms co-ed.


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## Karsh (Feb 27, 2013)

This brings in all sorts of juicy philosophical and ethical dilemmas. 

Are sex-differentiated bathrooms sexist? 

Well of course, perhaps we should just have several single bathrooms to make everyone happy.


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## Shiftiness (Feb 27, 2013)

Karsh said:


> Well of course, perhaps we should just have several single bathrooms to make everyone happy.



That would make life a lot simpler, but in the meantime, let her use the girl's bathroom. Christ.


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## Roman (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm a bit divided on the subject myself. On the one hand, her identifying as a girl should be taken as such. No one should have to tell the other what gender they should identify as based on their genitals. Otherwise, we'll have a lot of problems trying to figure out what intersex people should identify as.

On the other hand, it's easy to see how others can be uncomfortable with a boy going to a girl's bathroom and vice-versa. Personally, it's a psychological thing particularly because she identifies as a girl, and girl's bathrooms, to the best of my knowledge, don't have urinals, so there's no risk of a girl seeing another girl's privates. Changing rooms could be even more troublesome since not every school has private booths.


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## Mider T (Feb 27, 2013)

> Coy is transgendered, born with male sex organs



It's a boy.


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## Shiftiness (Feb 27, 2013)

Taco said:


> How the fuck does a 9 year old make such a decision...?



Transgenderism in children is well documented, and expecting children to repress their gender identity for the comfort of others will obviously be more damaging than letting them express it.


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## Smiley (Feb 27, 2013)

^ Bullshit.



Karsh said:


> This brings in all sorts of juicy philosophical and ethical dilemmas.
> 
> Are sex-differentiated bathrooms sexist?


The only kind of person who could seriously entertain this idea would be a delusional feminist who doesn't understand that the different sexes actually do exist, actually are different, and are not simply social constructs invented to keep the black man _female man_ down.

It breaks my heart to have to say it, but the sexes predate the concept of sexism. If anything, the latter has a much stronger claim to the title of social construct.


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## Zaru (Feb 27, 2013)

Karsh said:


> Well of course, perhaps we should just have several single bathrooms to make everyone happy.



Inefficient and hygienically questionable. Men who just need to take a piss don't take nearly as long and they represent most of male restroom usage, so male-only pissoirs (because anyone who identifies as a woman or is a woman has no use for a pissoir) should still exist no matter what unless you want to make it worse for everyone.


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## Mider T (Feb 27, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> Transgenderism in children is well documented, and expecting children to repress their gender identity for the comfort of others will obviously be more damaging than letting them express it.



No.  This laissez-faire parenting style is wrong, children need constructive discipline to guide them.  You can't seriously tell a child they can be a horse if they want.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Freedan said:


> On the other hand, it's easy to see how others can be uncomfortable with a boy going to a girl's bathroom and vice-versa. Personally, it's a psychological thing particularly because she identifies as a girl, and girl's bathrooms, to the best of my knowledge, don't have urinals, so there's no risk of a girl seeing another girl's privates. Changing rooms could be even more troublesome since not every school has private booths.



Nonsense, girls' bathrooms only have booths, so what the other girls would see is "girl-looking person enters the bathroom, enters booth, exits booth, washes hands, exits bathroom". It's not like in a boys' bathroom where some little shit might sneak a peek and be like "ehmagerd, it's different between the legs!".

Why would anyone have to know that the girl was born with male sexual organs...? Nobody had to know, it was the school that chose to broadcast it to everyone by making her use the boys' bathroom.



Smiley said:


> ^ Bullshit.



Your ignorance and lack of education don't invalidate years of scientifically sound research.



Mider T said:


> No.  This laissez-faire parenting style is wrong, children need constructive discipline to guide them.  You can't seriously tell a child they can be a horse if they want.



What do horses have to do with being transgendered?


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> i don't understand where is the issue, if you have a penis you go to the males bathroom
> if you have a vagina you go the females bathroom. it's supposed to be that simple right?
> 
> if your looks are different for whatever reason, then that's another story, but looks have no bearing on genitals
> ...



Wrong. If you're a woman, you use the females' bathroom and if you're a man, you use the males' bathroom. What genitals you were born with are irrelevant.


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## Smiley (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> What do horses have to do with being transgendered?


Uh oh, Saufsoldat's going to chew you out about the fact that he thinks he's a female horse.

Mental health services just don't have sufficient funding.


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## Mider T (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> What do horses have to do with being transgendered?



It's an example.  Letting children pretend to be whatever they want regardless of what they are.


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## Mider T (Feb 27, 2013)

Smiley said:


> Uh oh, Saufsoldat's going to chew you out about the fact that he thinks he's a female horse.
> 
> Mental health services just don't have sufficient funding.



[YOUTUBE]4oHfpFgXz5Y[/YOUTUBE]


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## Zaru (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Wrong. If you're a woman, you use the females' bathroom and if you're a man, you use the males' bathroom. What genitals you were born with are irrelevant.



Good luck using a pissoir as a woman*.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Mider T said:


> It's an example.  Letting children pretend to be whatever they want regardless of what they are.



At what point does "letting children live as the gender they identify with" become "letting children pretend to be whatever they want"...? Slippery slope fallacy at its finest.



Zaru said:


> Good luck using a pissoir as a woman*.



Most bathrooms have booths, so it's really not much of a problem.


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## Karsh (Feb 27, 2013)

Smiley said:


> ^ Bullshit.
> 
> 
> The only kind of person who could seriously entertain this idea would be a delusional feminist who doesn't understand that the different sexes actually do exist, actually are different, and are not simply social constructs invented to keep the black man _female man_ down.
> ...



All categories really 



Zaru said:


> Inefficient and hygienically questionable. Men who just need to take a piss don't take nearly as long and they represent most of male restroom usage, so male-only pissoirs (because anyone who identifies as a woman or is a woman has no use for a pissoir) should still exist no matter what unless you want to make it worse for everyone.



Civilzed people don't make an unhygienic mess of a universal bathroom so perhaps respect of public services and personal hygiene is an issue.

Anyway that's besides the point.

I don't care much about the issue, especially since arguing identity is so subjective.

What would you guys do about people who don't have "just" a penis or "just" a vagina?
Since we're arguing on a physiological basis, not psychological.


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## Mider T (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> At what point does "letting children live as the gender they identify with" become "letting children pretend to be whatever they want"...? Slippery slope fallacy at its finest.



When you see that boys pretending to be girls is a child pretending to be something else, and the parents allowed it.



> Most bathrooms have booths, so it's really not much of a problem.



If you sit you're gay.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Mider T said:


> When you see that boys pretending to be girls is a child pretending to be something else, and the parents allowed it.



So a child pretending to be "something else" equals pretending to be "everything"...? You use inductive reasoning with only one example to create greater rules where there is no need for any.


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## Unimportant (Feb 27, 2013)

Mider T said:


> When you see that boys pretending to be girls is a child pretending to be something else, and the parents allowed it.
> 
> 
> 
> If you sit you're gay.


What if Coy Mathis turns out to be Lesbian?


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## ImperatorMortis (Feb 27, 2013)

A transgendered First Grader? Waaaaaaaah?!



Mider T said:


> If you sit you're gay.



Do you even know if homosexuals sit when they pee?


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## Mider T (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> So a child pretending to be "something else" equals pretending to be "everything"...? You use inductive reasoning with only one example to create greater rules where there is no need for any.



It was in response to Shiftiness, children shouldn't have the right to pretend to be anything (not everything) they want to be.  That's bad parenting.



ImperatorMortis said:


> Do you even know if homosexuals sit when they pee?



Yes.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Mider T said:


> It was in response to Shiftiness, children shouldn't have the right to pretend to be anything (not everything) they want to be.  That's bad parenting.



I agree, but you've yet to explain how "be the gender they identify with" becomes "be whatever they want to be".


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## Smiley (Feb 27, 2013)

Karsh said:


> All categories really


My penis isn't a category. It was a tangible item in physical reality the last time that I checked, and quite distinct from a vagina, another tangible item in physical reality. 

Categories were invented to describe reality, but they are not the reality which they describe. They are ideas. You can categorize apples and oranges as "fruit", making them the same in your mind, but the fact remains that they are not the same in reality.

You can categorize men with gender identity disorders as being the  same as women, but again, the fact remains that they are not the same in  reality.

(Cue Sauf with a strawman about me claiming that women are literally oranges, or something equally insane and easy to ignore)

Edit: If I pretend to be an orange, but I get clever about it and euphemistically rephrase my pretending as "identifying", will that make me an orange?

Who am I kidding? Of course it will. Years of scientific research backs this up.


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## emili (Feb 27, 2013)

> For now, the first-grader is being homeschooled.



Name has been publicised. Poor Mathis will never go back to school. Perhaps.


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## Mider T (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> I agree, but you've yet to explain how "be the gender they identify with" becomes "be whatever they want to be".



This child only identifies with the wrong gender because their parents raised them that way.  If the child identified with the wrong gender themselves then the parents could just as easily correct that problem.

That's a parent's job.


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## PDQ (Feb 27, 2013)

Freedan said:


> I'm a bit divided on the subject myself. On the one hand, her identifying as a girl should be taken as such. No one should have to tell the other what gender they should identify as based on their genitals. Otherwise, we'll have a lot of problems trying to figure out what intersex people should identify as.


Depends.  Are bathrooms separated due to gender or is it just a shorthand/PC naming for genitals?  I mean, they could put a penis on the door of one and...well you get the idea.  That would keep them from assuming the bathroom is trying to tell them their gender, just reflecting inarguable anatomical differences(unless you're a hermaphrodite).  If you have to urinate and can easily use a urinal(i.e. have a penis and can stand), you should because it's more water efficient(some using no water at all)

Then again the problem in Thailand was solved half a decade ago with 
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/25234970/


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## Bioness (Feb 27, 2013)

There are not enough negs in the world for some of the stupidity in this thread.



Taco said:


> How the fuck does a 9 year old make such a decision...? It's obvious the parents are behind some of it... I mean they even dyed their 9 year old's hair purple?
> 
> Wacky ass parents lol. Good luck to the kid, though. It's important for the parents to consider the comfort of other kids.. It's a risky situation letting a little girl with male genitals into the girl's restroom.



What decision? She is just doing what feels right, it is no different than cisgender children following the "norms".



Zaru said:


> Good luck using a pissoir as a woman*.



They actually have attachable penises so a biological woman could use a pissoir.


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## emili (Feb 27, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Depends.  Are bathrooms separated due to gender or is it just a shorthand/PC naming for genitals?  I mean,* they could put a penis on the door *of one and...well you get the idea.  That would keep them from assuming the bathroom is trying to tell them their gender, just reflecting inarguable anatomical differences(unless you're a hermaphrodite).  If you have to urinate and can easily use a urinal(i.e. have a penis and can stand), you should because it's more water efficient(some using no water at all)
> 
> Then again the problem in Thailand was solved half a decade ago with
> http://www.nbcnews.com/id/25234970/



That would be an inappropriate door


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## Smiley (Feb 27, 2013)

Bioness said:


> There are not enough negs in the world for some of the stupidity in this thread.


Luckily the majority of it just consolidated itself into one post right before my very eyes.


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## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Feb 27, 2013)

Bioness said:


> There are not enough negs in the world for some of the stupidity in this thread.


I wholeheartedly agree, Bioness. The ignorance in this thread is simply astounding.

I saw somewhere on Tumblr where it was said that the trans community is being  left behind in terms of overall social acceptance. I can see that this is very true. It seems there's little progress going on for them.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Mider T said:


> This child only identifies with the wrong gender because their parents raised them that way.  If the child identified with the wrong gender themselves then the parents could just as easily correct that problem.
> 
> That's a parent's job.



She doesn't identify with the wrong gender, that's the point. The school wants to force her to do just that, however.

And no, parents have actually very little influence on the child's gender identity. The most they could do is force her to dress like someone she's not.


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## Mider T (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> She doesn't identify with the wrong gender, that's the point. The school wants to force her to do just that, however.
> 
> And no, parents have actually very little influence on the child's gender identity. The most they could do is force her to dress like someone she's not.



That's incorrect though


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## Kotre (Feb 27, 2013)

Spartan1337 said:


> I saw somewhere on Tumblr where it was said that the trans community is being  left behind in terms of overall social acceptance. I can see that this is very true. It seems there's little progress going on for them.



And it *is* being left behind. Make no mistake about it, while gays are for the most part thought of as equals by the majority transgendered people are thought of as freaks just like homosexuals were and for mostly the same reasons. You're a male who doesn't identify with the sexuality/gender that your genitalia says you should? FREAK! I'm not going to get into the "the kid must have had bad parents" point that one of the trolls raised. Because it's bullshit.

And you know what? I'm OK with transgendered people being decades behind homosexuals and bisexuals. Not because they should be. *Hell no*, people should be treated as equals and defined by their actions not whether or not they follow social conventions. I'm OK with it because I think that change should be gradual and there's only "room" for one social revolution at a time in the public conciousness. If this fight was getting equal coverage at the same time as marriage equality both would be less visible (due to sharing the spotlight) and you risk people radically against one issue throwing out both due to association even if their position could be softened on the other. 

Make no mistake, trans-rights will be the next step in terms of making everybody equal. It's unfortunate that they've had to wait so long.


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 27, 2013)

The issue with me is how young the kid is, regarding this complex issue. A first-grader seems a bit too young to have an adequate understanding to make a proper conclusion on this...If it is true, the kid will have a really tough road ahead. Children are cruel, and the fact is as they get older will realize that what one feels in their mind isn't what is always an objective case.


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## ninjaneko (Feb 27, 2013)

Eh, I don't see the problem. It's not like girls will be exposed to any male anatomy. 

Apparently others are worried about hormones and the kid abusing their access to a girl-only room but I doubt this would be a problem, especially in elementary school. Non-straight people, including hormonal teenagers, seem to get along just fine without peeking lecherously over the stalls or otherwise behaving inappropriately in the restroom. It seems the kid hasn't proven to be a trouble-maker; I don't think they need to assume there will be trouble.


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 27, 2013)

It's about the parents. It's always about the parents.


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## abc123 (Feb 27, 2013)

Hmm...
I hope all the ladies in here don't get mad when I walk into the women's toilets whilst they're in there and announce it's ok, don't worry, I'm a woman stuck in a man's body. We'll be able to do each others nails and what not. 

Kid needs to get used to using the boy's toilets unless he just wants to cause more problems. The parents are just exacerbating it; XY = male as far as I'm concerned.


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## Gunners (Feb 27, 2013)

Don't blame the school for their actions they have to be reasonable and balance the concerns of the parents as best as they can. At the end of the day the boy has a penis meaning he shouldn't be in the ladies' room, the parents' concerns are also understandable. The school has presented the boy with reasonable options, use the boys' toilet, use the nurses' toilet or use the disabled toilet. If he is afraid of being bullied he can go ahead and use the last two options.

That being said social services need to check on his family. The whole situation stinks of individuals using their child as a tool to push their social views.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Don't blame the school for their actions they have to be reasonable and balance the concerns of the parents as best as they can. At the end of the day the boy has a penis meaning he shouldn't be in the ladies' room, the parents' concerns are also understandable. The school has presented the boy with reasonable options, use the boys' toilet, use the nurses' toilet or use the disabled toilet. If he is afraid of being bullied he can go ahead and use the last two options.
> 
> That being said social services need to check on his family. The whole situation stinks of individuals using their child as a tool to push their social views.



There are no reasonable concerns. She's a child, there is absolutely nothing that can happen if she's allowed to use the same bathroom as the other girls. What you're trying to say is that the school must cater to the other parents' bigotry, nothing more and there I have to disagree. The school should always act in the best interest of the children.

And don't give me that bullshit about using the nurse's or the disabled toilet, that will lead to just as much questioning and bullying.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 27, 2013)

Rothwell said:


> Hmm...
> I hope all the ladies in here don't get mad when I walk into the women's toilets whilst they're in there and announce it's ok, don't worry, I'm a woman stuck in a man's body. We'll be able to do each others nails and what not.


Because that's totally what happened here :eyeroll.jpg

There's a major difference between a child that identifies as a female (to the extent of having state/federal issued identification that says she is female), dresses as a female, and presumably acts as a female and someone that just decides on a whim to go in.

Of course, if you want to go to your county courthouse and apply to have your gender officially changed to female on all official records and documentation I'll support you in that.  I'll even edit your profile here first 



Rothwell said:


> Kid needs to get used to using the boy's toilets unless he just wants to cause more problems. The parents are just exacerbating it; XY = male as far as I'm concerned.


I missed the part of the article that says she has XY genes.

Because you know there are people born with XX genes with male genitalia.  Or XY with female genitalia.  Or people born with indeterminate genitalia that are assigned one with cosmetic surgery at birth.  Not to mention people that are XXY or XXX or XXXY or any number of other atypical things.

For that matter there have been studies on transgender individuals that have shown that they have the same mental brain patterns of their assumed gender, not the ones of their biological gender.  So maybe it would be better to say "if you think like a girl, you're a girl?"

The short answer to the story is she's going to have a tough life ahead of her.  The school can either help with that process or harm it.


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## Smiley (Feb 27, 2013)

Brb, going to the court house to declare myself as an orange.

My days of being a human male are completely behind me. I can't believe I've suffered like this for so many years when the very real ability to alter the nature of the universe by filling in a form was already within my reach, just out of sight.

Actually, you know what? Fuck an orange. I'm going to just arbitrarily choose to become the universe itself. Because I feel like being it, and that's how life works.

See you lowly human suckers on the flipside after I attain a transcendental state of oneness with everything.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

[sp][/sp]

Thank you for this well-thought-out response, Gunners. Clearly your arguments are superior to mine and I am now fully convinced that a 6-year-old child in a girls' bathroom poses a public security risk.


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## Griever (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> There are no reasonable concerns. She's a child, there is absolutely nothing that can happen if she's allowed to use the same bathroom as the other girls. What you're trying to say is that the school must cater to the other parents' bigotry, nothing more and there I have to disagree. The school should always act in the best interest of the children.




I could understand if it where in an Adult environment, but it's not, it's in an elementary school. when dealing with children you need to have structure you need to have rules. You allow one male student to use the women's bathroom and the other students are going to start complaining "well, he can do that,  why can't I?" and you think the kid will be bullied because he's not allowed to use the women's restroom?, there is nothing quite like jealous kids who think another child is getting more attention or being treated differently than themselves. that's just what children do.


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## Syed (Feb 27, 2013)

Smiley said:


> Brb, going to the court house to declare myself as an orange.
> 
> My days of being a human male are completely behind me. I can't believe I've suffered like this for so many years when the very real ability to alter the nature of the universe by filling in a form was already within my reach, just out of sight.
> 
> ...



You self hating orange. 

Kid has a penis. Should stick with boys washroom aka where people with penises go to piss and excrete.


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## Toroxus (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm always amazed at the total ignorance by a part of the general public.


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## PDQ (Feb 27, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> For that matter there have been studies on transgender individuals that have shown that they have the same mental brain patterns of their assumed gender, not the ones of their biological gender.  So maybe it would be better to say "if you think like a girl, you're a girl?"



What exactly are these mental brain patterns that differentiate genders?  Are they socially instilled or genetic?  Are they inherent to gender or just more correlative?  Would a male who acts "feminine" likely have these, even if he identifies as male?  By this standard, would he have to use the girl's room if it was determined through CAT scans or whatever that he had "female" brain patterns?


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Griever said:


> I could understand if it where in an Adult environment, but it's not, it's in an elementary school. when dealing with children you need to have structure you need to have rules. *You allow one male student to use the women's bathroom and the other students are going to start complaining "well, he can do that,  why can't I?"* and you think the kid will be bullied because he's not allowed to use the women's restroom?, there is nothing quite like jealous kids who think another child is getting more attention or being treated differently than themselves. that's just what children do.



Wrong, because nobody needs to know that the girl was born with male genitalia. The school doesn't need to broadcast it and the girl probably wouldn't tell anyone. None of the children would even get the idea, if it wasn't for the school trying to force the girl to use the boys' bathroom.

You're making up scenarios that would never happen if the school would just let her use the same bathroom as the other girls instead of singling her out for designated bullying.


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## Smiley (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> [sp][/sp]
> 
> Thank you for this well-thought-out response, Gunners. Clearly your arguments are superior to mine and I am now fully convinced that a 6-year-old child in a girls' bathroom poses a public security risk.





Thank you for this well-thought-out response, Sauf. Clearly your arguments are superior to mine and I am now fully convinced that a 6-year-old boy in a girls' bathroom is a girl.



Syed said:


> You self hating orange.



Hey, you better watch that tone! If what Evil Moogle said is true then I am but a pen stroke away from becoming the omnipresent and omnipotent facilitator of your entire existence.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Smiley said:


> Thank you for this well-thought-out response, Sauf. Clearly your arguments are superior to mine and I am now fully convinced that a 6-year-old boy in a girls' bathroom is a girl.



There's a difference between people debating and you throwing around fallacies left and right. If you think the difference between a male humand and a female human (1 chromosome) is the same as the difference between a human being and an orange (over 50% of the DNA and the fact that Oranges have no brain patters or any semblance of self-awareness), then nobody can help you. You're a bigotted nutcase who contributes nothing to any rational discussion.


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## Griever (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Wrong, because nobody needs to know that the girl was born with male genitalia. The school doesn't need to broadcast it and the girl probably wouldn't tell anyone. None of the children would even get the idea, if it wasn't for the school trying to force the girl to use the boys' bathroom.
> 
> You're making up scenarios that would never happen if the school would just let her use the same bathroom as the other girls instead of singling her out for designated bullying.



I'm sorry Sauf but this is just dumb. They can't in good conscience do that, in trying to make one kid feel comfortable, you are effectively lying to the other children and too the parents, and you think this is right?.  

In hiding this you are concealing something that if known could make the girls who use the bathrooms extremely uncomfortable and the parents as well, and you think that's right?. No, this is something that really needs to be decided on by all concerned parties, and that includes Student's, Teachers and Parents. it is not just about one person.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 27, 2013)

Smiley said:


> See you lowly human suckers on the flipside after I attain a transcendental state of oneness with everything.


So you're becoming Buddhist?  I don't know that there are any government forms for that but knock yourself out.  It doesn't hurt me if you want to achieve oneness with the universe.



PDQ said:


> What exactly are these mental brain patterns that  differentiate genders?  Are they socially instilled or genetic?  Are  they inherent to gender or just more correlative?  Would a male who acts  "feminine" likely have these, even if he identifies as male?  By this  standard, would he have to use the girl's room if it was determined  through CAT scans or whatever that he had "female" brain  patterns?


 is an article about the study.


> In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white  matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and  19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person's brain the  structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between  that of the males and females (). "Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female," says Guillamon.



Personally I choose a much simpler solution, just ask her how she wishes to be treated.  When she says she's female and should use the girls restroom allow her to do so.

If you want to give everyone brain scans to see which is the "right" bathroom for them knock yourself out I guess.


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## santanico (Feb 27, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> The issue with me is how young the kid is, regarding this complex issue. A first-grader seems a bit too young to have an adequate understanding to make a proper conclusion on this...If it is true, the kid will have a really tough road ahead. Children are cruel, and the fact is as they get older will realize that what one feels in their mind isn't what is always an objective case.


They usually start that young, or younger, I've heard children having sexual identity issues as young as that


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 27, 2013)

Griever said:


> In hiding this you are concealing something that if known could make the girls who use the bathrooms extremely uncomfortable and the parents as well, and you think that's right?. No, this is something that really needs to be decided on by all concerned parties, and that includes Student's, Teachers and Parents. it is not just about one person.


I'm sorry, do they talk to parents about any other kids genitalia?

Do they say "Johnny's hung like a horse, you'd better be careful if Sally starts crushing on him in high school?"  Or "Fred never got circumcised, you might want to talk to your kids about this lest they be confused?"

What about "Jenny started growing hair 'down there' earlier than most girls, be ready for some questions about this?"  Or even "Megan got her first period today, we held a party in class to celebrate!"

What?  All of those are extremely inappropriate topics for discussion between school administration and parents?  In fact it raises a lot of really awkward questions as to how the school knew about those events at all?

Maybe we can learn something from that then.


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## LesExit (Feb 27, 2013)

I don't really see the problem here o___o 
From what I've heard it's extremely common for young kids to not feel like they are the gender they're born into. It seems like all the school is doing is making an already tough situation worse. Kids are going to start looking at her as weird, when she says she's a girl, but has to use the boys room or the nurses bathroom. I mean really kids only care about things like that, if you _teach_ them to care. All they need to know is that she's a girl and that's that. Stop making unnecessary fuss.

If they get a situation where the kids are getting naked in front of each other or touching...that's a different story. Seems like she's been well behaved so...ya I don't see the problem o___o


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## Smiley (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> There's a difference between people debating and you throwing around fallacies left and right. If you think the difference between a male humand and a female human (1 chromosome) is the same as the difference between a human being and an orange (over 50% of the DNA and the fact that Oranges have no brain patters or any semblance of self-awareness), then nobody can help you. You're a bigotted nutcase who contributes nothing to any rational discussion.


You can't just scream "FALLACY FALLACY FALLACY" when you have no explanation, and likely no comprehension of what you even mean by it, and still expect me to give a shit.

And  what did I say earlier? "Cue Sauf with a strawman about me claiming  that women are literally oranges, or something equally insane and easily  ignored". (That's how to call out a fallacy. With specifics. Take notes.)

Did I call it or did I call it? I've noticed that's  what you always do. You look for the most pedantic and idiotic ways to  attack examples and metaphors by completely abandoning any sense of  relevance or context, ignoring the highlighted similarities between one  thing and another while pointing out meaningless differences which have  nothing to do with the discussion.

Who gives a flying rat's balls about  an orange's DNA? You don't even care that no one - NO ONE - is comparing  oranges to humans on a biological level. The comparison being made is  of people using their imagination to magically change into other things just  by thinking about it.

Male humans being genetically closer to  female humans than oranges is meaningless. Unfortunately, being  genetically "closer" does not magically allow males to be female simply  by imagining that they are, any more or less than they can become  oranges. Humans are closer to monkeys than they are to oranges, does  that mean that I can choose to be a monkey? How about a mouse? We're closer  to them than oranges too. 

Obviously this logic is backed by years of scientific research, so surely it will work. I  mean jeez, who hasn't heard of the "being closer to something than an  orange means that you can magically turn into that thing at will"  theory. Certainly no one worth their salt!

If I say killing  someone with a knife isn't much different to killing someone with a  sword, you'll come back and tell me "NO WAY, YOU DON'T USE SWORDS IN THE  KITCHEN YOU FOOL!" ignoring the fact that this is irelevant to the act of murder.

And  now that I've used the above example to highlight your tendency toward  irrelevancy, you'll come back and tell me that knives and swords aren't  anything _like_ oranges, or that murder has nothing to do with gender. Again, pre-emptively missing the point, that being the general irrelevance of your posts in reply to any given argument.

Never change. Please.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Smiley said:


> You can't just scream "FALLACY FALLACY FALLACY" when you have no explanation and likely no comprehension of what you even mean by it and expect me to give a shit.



It's an obvious slippery slope fallacy if you think humans being allowed to legally change their gender will lead to anything other than humans being allowed to legally change their gender.



> And  what did I say earlier? "Cue Sauf with a strawman about me claiming  that women are literally oranges, or something equally insane and easily  ignored".
> 
> Did I call it or did I call it? I've noticed that's  what you always do. You look for the most pedantic and idiotic ways to  attack examples and metaphors by completely abandoning any sense of  relevance or context, ignoring the highlighted similarities between one  thing and another while pointing out meaningless differences which have  nothing to do with the discussion.



So making a batshit insane argument and then pointing out why it's batshit insane yourself means other people can't use that against you anymore? Sorry, that's not how it works.



> Who gives a flying rat's balls about  an orange's DNA? You don't even care that no one - NO ONE - is comparing  oranges to humans on a biological level. The comparison being made is  of people using their imagination to magically change into other things just  by thinking about it.
> 
> Male humans being genetically closer to  female humans than oranges is meaningless. Unfortunately, being  genetically "closer" does not magically allow males to be female simply  by imagining that they are, any more or less than they can become  oranges. Humans are closer to monkeys than they are to oranges, does  that mean that I can choose to be a monkey? How about a mouse? We're closer  to them than oranges too.



And there you go off strawmanning again. Where did I say that anything in-between different gender and orange is fair game? Right, never. Stop being an idiot, please.



> Obviously this logic is backed by years of scientific research, so surely it will work. I  mean jeez, who hasn't heard of the "being closer to something than an  orange means that you can magically turn into that thing at will"  theory. Certainly no one worth their salt!



You seem to be under the impression that transgendered people choose their condition, which once again confirms your complete lack of education on the subject.



> If I say killing  someone with a knife isn't much different to killing someone with a  sword, you'll come back and tell me "NO WAY, YOU DON'T USE SWORDS IN THE  KITCHEN YOU FOOL!" ignoring the fact that this is irelevant to the act of murder.



And if I say Tomatoes are Pokemon, that'll be about as relevant to the discussion as what you just said.



> And  now that I've used the above example to highlight your tendency toward  irrelevancy, you'll come back and tell me that knives and swords aren't  anything _like_ oranges, or that murder has nothing to do with gender. Again, pre-emptively missing the point, that being the general irrelevance of your posts in reply to any given argument.
> 
> Never change. Please.



So addressing the only argument you've made is irrelevant? Right, cool, whatever.

Please change. Just educate yourself at least a little bit before you start ranting about things you don't understand.


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## Smiley (Feb 27, 2013)

It's like arguing with an Italian cooking show on VHS.


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## hadou (Feb 27, 2013)

The kid has a penis and a vagina. But considers himself/herself a girl. That's the reason she wants to go to the girls' bathroom.


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## Shiftiness (Feb 27, 2013)

hadou said:


> The kid has a penis and a vagina. But considers himself/herself a girl. That's the reason she wants to go to the girls' bathroom.



Please tell me that's not what you think it means to be transgendered.


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## Megaharrison (Feb 27, 2013)

1.) He's a boy
2.) Use the stall.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> 1.) He's a boy



All her legal documents beg to differ.


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## Megaharrison (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> All her legal documents beg to differ.



Does he have the genetic traits of a woman, including the proper sex organs, chromosomes, and ability to have children (later in life anyway)? If not, not a girl.

Also don't you think 9 is a wee bit early to be pulling this "I'm a girl born in a mans body" stuff? I mean, I don't care what grown adults do to themselves with their own money, all power to them. But 9 year olds lack the ability to make these decisions for themselves and I imagine the parents are pushing the crossdressing on him.


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## Kotre (Feb 27, 2013)

Smiley said:


> It's like arguing with an Italian cooking show on VHS.



No, it's like arguing with someone who tries to equate homosexuality with paedophilia and bestiality. You want to talk about how genetics is what determines gender. I'll talk about people with XXY chromosomes or an XY chromosome but have a vagina instead of a penis. Yeah, turns out the genetics of gender aren't that simple.

You want to talk about how being transgendered is a choice that shouldn't be encourages and I'll talk about Alan Turing being punished for the "choice" of being gay. I'll talk about the biological research that proves you wrong. You want to say you're right, the kid's got a dick therefore he's a male, should identify as male and that's that? No, I will find facts that show you're wrong. Credible, peer reviewed, scientifically approved facts to prove that you're exactly the kind of bigot that thinks DOMA and DADT are good ideas, except you're drawing the line between "freak" and "normal" at the genitals rather than where people stick them.

tl;dr sit the fuck down, shut your bigoted ass up and stop posting in this thread.


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## Kotre (Feb 27, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Does he have the genetic traits of a woman, including the proper sex organs,



Hermaphroditism, along with the things below says why that's not 100% for determining gender. It's a great way of determining what set of genitals you have though.



> chromosomes,



XX Male Syndrome, Swyer Syndrome and XXY all say that "gender is more complicated than the 46th pair of chromosomes.



> and ability to have children (later in life anyway)? If not, not a girl.



So, someone who's unable to have children is somehow less female/male than someone who can? Is that something you want to say?



> Also don't you think 9 is a wee bit early to be pulling this "I'm a girl born in a mans body" stuff?



Not really, no.


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## Owl (Feb 27, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> That would make life a lot simpler, but in the meantime, let her use the girl's bathroom. Christ.



And let hell break loose. Good idea, while you're on it why not pepper spray the parents that will surely protest for that?


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## Megaharrison (Feb 27, 2013)

Kotre said:


> Hermaphroditism. Not a reliable means of determining gender.



No it isn't. The kid has the DNA of a boy. He's a boy technically no matter how much he doesn't want to be a boy. 




> XX Male Syndrome, Swyer Syndrome and XXY all say that "gender is more complicated than the 46th pair of chromosomes.



No disorders which this person has.




> So, someone who's unable to have children is somehow less female/male than someone who can? Is that something you want to say?



The ability to have children is a female trait, yes. If someone is actually a woman genetically who can't have children due to an internal medical reason, then they're simply a woman who is unable to have children.




> Not really, no.



You don't think issues of sexuality and fetishes are too early for 9 years olds? Geez


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 27, 2013)

Really, this is a matter of one's state of mind so you can't really expect to convince everyone. The conditions you cited are outliers that blur the line of sex and gender, but they don't eradicate them.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> You don't think issues of sexuality and fetishes are too early for 9 years olds? Geez



What does sexuality have to do with any of this? Get your mind out of the gutter, this is a little child we're talking about.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Owl said:


> And let hell break loose. Good idea, while you're on it why not pepper spray the parents that will surely protest for that?



Why do the parents have to know about it...? Now they do, but there was no reason for anyone to know.


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## abc123 (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> All her legal documents beg to differ.


So if I get the government to change my gender details to 'female' I'm a woman? Hm, learn something new everyday.



EvilMoogle said:


> Because that's totally what happened here :eyeroll.jpg


 You missed the point. If some man were to walk into a the woman's toilets at a restaurant, shop or any other public place, how would you think the women in those toilets would feel? Would they be immediately understanding once that man admits he thinks he's a woman and has the legal documents to prove it, or would they still be creeped out and uncomfortable in the situation? (n.b. this is if the kid doesn't have a sex change operation when he's grown up)



EvilMoogle said:


> I missed the part of the article that says she has XY genes.
> 
> Because you know there are people born with XX genes with male genitalia.  Or XY with female genitalia.  Or people born with indeterminate genitalia that are assigned one with cosmetic surgery at birth.  Not to mention people that are XXY or XXX or XXXY or any number of other atypical things.


And where in the article does it state that any of this applies to the boy? If his chromosomes were messed up I'm pretty sure it'd be used as evidence supporting his use of the female toilets.

Ah, anyway, if he wants to use the female toilets it's fine with me if it's fine with you. Think I'd prefer it to him coming into the boys anyway .


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## hadou (Feb 27, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> Please tell me that's not what you think it means to be transgendered.



I read the story wrong. I apologize


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## Kotre (Feb 27, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> No it isn't. The kid has the DNA of a boy. He's a boy technically no matter how much he doesn't want to be a boy.



Want to go into the DNA? OK, Male to female transgenders (is that the correct term? I'm never sure when it comes to group names) have different androgen receptors, 



> No disorders which this person has.



That you know of, and it's beside the point. What my point is that just because your chromosomes say you should be male or female does not mean that you are physically or mentally, because things are a shitload more complicated. If one can be genetically male, but physically and mentally female, why can't someone be physically and genetically male but mentally female? 



> The ability to have children is a female trait, yes. If someone is actually born a woman who can't have children due to an internal medical reason, then they're simply a woman who is unable to have children but if you removed that abnormality, would be able to.



It is possible to be born with no uterus (but otherwise female). Does this mean that the child has no gender?



> You don't think issues of sexuality and fetishes are too early for 9 years olds? Geez



1) It's not a fetish.
2) Children as young as three can show signs of being transgendered.
3) If homosexuals being born homosexual is accepted and they can and do notice it very young, why isn't the same true for transgendered people?


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## Neo Arcadia (Feb 27, 2013)

Spartan1337 said:


> I saw somewhere on Tumblr where it was said that the trans community is being  left behind in terms of overall social acceptance. I can see that this is very true. It seems there's little progress going on for them.



Of course they isn't any progress. Why should a defective group be given social acceptance?

The correct mental path of humanity is cisgender -> genderless. Transsexuals are just a nuisance to be forgotten in due time.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Neo Arcadia said:


> Of course they isn't any progress. Why should a defective group be given social acceptance?



Ignoring this topic for a moment, lots of actually defective groups are given social acceptance. Or do you also argue for the removal of wheelchair ramps?



Rothwell said:


> So if I get the government to change my gender details to 'female' I'm a woman? Hm, learn something new everyday.



This is pretty much common knowledge, but I'm always happy to cure ignorance.


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## Neo Arcadia (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Ignoring this topic for a moment, lots of actually defective groups are given social acceptance. Or do you also argue for the removal of wheelchair ramps?



People who are unfortunately handicapped deserve sympathy and help. People who can't get over their gender identity, not so much. 

I just don't get it. Why can't these people accept what their body is and go with the flow? I don't feel attached to my dick and balls in the slightest and have thought of the concept of being a woman, yet I never stir up a shitstorm over being expected to go to the men's restroom.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Neo Arcadia said:


> People who are unfortunately handicapped deserve sympathy and help. People who can't get over their gender identity, not so much.



So actually defective people should get social acceptance. That's strange, then what category do transgendered people fit in?



> I just don't get it. Why can't these people accept what their body is and go with the flow? I don't feel attached to my dick and balls in the slightest and have thought of the concept of being a woman, yet I never stir up a shitstorm over being expected to go to the men's restroom.



Ah, so it's the old "I don't get it, therefore it's wrong".

I guess everyone should just get over it and be what you want them to be. How dare the millions of transgendered people in the world be themselves instead of living in the closet so that your world view remains intact.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 27, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Does he have the genetic traits of a woman, including the proper sex organs, chromosomes, and ability to have children (later in life anyway)? If not, not a girl.


Do you have any documented proof you have male chromosomes?  No?  Why do you expect this of other people?

More directly to the point what percentage of the people you work with on a daily basis do you have more substantial proof of their sex other than what they claim their sex to be (including transitive things like their name or their behavior/dress)?  If you found out one of these people were "lying" to you what would that really impact in your life?

(Note, if you're requiring "ability to have children" as a requirement for "female" there are a lot of infertile not-women you need to find a new designation for)



Rothwell said:


> So if I get the government to change my gender  details to 'female' I'm a woman? Hm, learn something new everyday.


If you think you're female, literally legitimately think you're female then yeah, you are.  Unless you somehow think the body is more important than the mind for defining a person?



Rothwell said:


> You missed the point. If some man were to walk into a the woman's  toilets at a restaurant, shop or any other public place, how would you  think the women in those toilets would feel?


Honestly?

If a man, dressed as a woman, acting as a woman, presenting "himself" as a woman walked into a woman's toilet with the intent of using the facilities I would expect the women there _wouldn't notice_.  Because why would they?

I'll grant you the amount of time I've spent in the women's restroom is rather small however in all my experiences in men's rooms I've never seen a man kick open the stall door to check and see if the person using the stall has a penis.  And I'll venture to guess that this happens very rarely in the women's stall as well (and were it to happen I would be far more concerned with the person kicking stall doors open than I would with the person merely trying to void their bladder).


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## abc123 (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Rothwell said:
> 
> 
> > So if I get the government to change my gender details to 'female' I'm a woman? Hm, learn something new everyday.
> ...


I'm not sure if you're trolling, but either way you sound incredibly stupid. If my legal documents say I'm 98 years old, am I 98 years old? No, I'm not. It's the same with gender. I certainly wouldn't become a woman just because on my legal documents said so. I'm happy to cure your ignorance on this matter


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## Neo Arcadia (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> So actually defective people should get social acceptance. That's strange, then what category do transgendered people fit in?



After giving it some more thought, I've concluded they're not defective. The category they fit in is "immature."



> Ah, so it's the old "I don't get it, therefore it's wrong".
> 
> I guess everyone should just get over it and be what you want them to be. How dare the millions of transgendered people in the world be themselves instead of living in the closet so that your world view remains intact.



Living in the closet or coming out... The problem is perceiving a closet to be in or out of in the first place. One would think a person whose mind and body are incompatible would gain a greater perspective on the system as a whole, but sadly that is seldom the case.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Rothwell said:


> I'm not sure if you're trolling, but either way you sound incredibly stupid. If my legal documents say I'm 98 years old, am I 98 years old? No, I'm not. It's the same with gender. I certainly wouldn't become a woman just because on my legal documents said so. I'm happy to cure your ignorance on this matter



Age has important legal implications for society, so changing it is not an option, even though you'll certainly find 40-year-olds who are biologically younger (or less aged) than some 35-year-olds.

Gender is different. In our daily lives nobody defines gender by what chromosomes you have. We define it by the way a person looks, acts and dresses. If a man sitting next to you on the subway doesn't have a Y-chromosome, does this affect your life in any way? If one of your collegues is transgendered and you don't know about it, would it change anything about that person if you found out she has a Y-chromosome?

You're throwing a fit over nothing. Society can get along just fine. We don't ask non-transgendered people to show us their genitals or to account for their chromosomes, so why do you presume that society has that right when it comes to transgendered people?


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## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Kid just wanted to handle some businesses poor kid. 

From now on I'm an white 18 year co-ed because I said so.I'll go get the legal documents to back it up.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Neo Arcadia said:


> After giving it some more thought, I've concluded they're not defective. The category they fit in is "immature."



Right, because anyone who is different from you must have something wrong with them. You should become a psychologist. Just tell anyone who walks into your office "lol, stop being immature and live with whatever life has given you".



> Living in the closet or coming out... The problem is perceiving a closet to be in or out of in the first place. One would think a person whose mind and body are incompatible would gain a greater perspective on the system as a whole, but sadly that is seldom the case.



Why would you force them to live with that dissonance? It's like forcing a child with a lazy eye to live with it, because that's how they were born.



Gino said:


> Kid just wanted to handle some businesses poor kid.
> 
> From now on I'm an white 18 year co-ed because I said so.*I'll go get the legal documents to back it up*.



Don't come back until you do.



Really, do you people think it's easy to get a legal gender transition?


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## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Don't come back until you do.



You're gonna be paying for em.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Gino said:


> You're gonna be paying for em.



If you can get an age change recognized in any civilized country on the planet, I'll gladly cover any fees.


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## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> If you can get an age change recognized in any civilized country on the planet, I'll gladly cover any fees.



You underestimate the ways of Gino you Fool.


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## Magic (Feb 27, 2013)

Is it unethical for a transgender kid to use the glory hole?


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## eHav (Feb 27, 2013)

it's gonna be fun when this "girl" whips out her manparts in front of all the other girls.


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## Zaru (Feb 27, 2013)

Neo Arcadia said:


> People who are unfortunately handicapped deserve sympathy and help. People who can't get over their gender identity, not so much.



It kind of depends. There are those who had the wrong exposure of hormones and chemicals in the womb and thus ended up in the "wrong body". That is a sad fate and should be treated with at least the same sympathy as any other unfortunate defect. 
And then there are those who are simply mentally ill. Wanting to be another gender without any physiological reason for it is the same as wanting to be a cat, a wizard, an anime character or whatever mentally ill people want to be these days.

The problem is that you can't differentiate between those two so easily. And the people fighting for their "rights" and "acceptance" tend to alienate the rest of the population with their demands.


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## Fojos (Feb 27, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> That would make life a lot simpler, but in the meantime, let her use the girl's bathroom. Christ.



Then you're possibly discriminating the other girls. So the question is; discriminate one or discriminate many?


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## Kotre (Feb 27, 2013)

Fojos said:


> Then you're discriminating the other girls. So the question is; discriminate one or discriminate many?



Legally, she is a girl. She is the only one being discriminated in this case.


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## Daxter (Feb 27, 2013)

I meant to reply to this thread earlier but didn't have the time.

Some people are forming opinions on things they don't know much about. Step back for a second and try to understand the complexity of gender. Gender is separate from biological sex, and gender identity largely occurs in the brain. It's a spectrum, and most of the time, when a child develops, the brain and body are in understanding of one another - in others, the brain mistakenly identifies too far on the other side of the spectrum (this is dependent on prenatal hormones before birth). Sometimes that's a little, other times it's a lot. Thus every so often we get those who are ambiguous or cogendered, and in other cases we get individuals who are too far to the left or right and find their brain is identifying them entirely as the opposite sex. 

In other words, this child hasn't made 'any decisions' about anything. She's acting as she is conditioned to act, and not consciously deciding she's anything but what she is.

I think it is entirely possible for this child to identify to some degree as female. A great deal of transgendered persons know they are different from their earliest memory. A part of me relates with this child on a personal level I suppose too. Gender identity is partially socialised but our subjective view is developed very early on, and I don`t think the issue here is whether or not this child should be forced to act or be seen as a boy if they don't want to be - the parents should not be blamed either. It's a difficult situation as is to have transgendered children and they shouldn't have to deal with accusations upfront that it is their fault she is different.

I was discussing with my sibling about this briefly and she brought up a good point - while it would be nice to cushion this child's feelings and have her also be able to use the female bathroom, this child needs to learn, even in the most basic ways that she is different from other girls and she's going to come into many situations in her life where she will not be seen as she wishes to be seen. It's a difficult situation because while she thinks she's female, this child does not, could not understand what it is to be transgendered, no less in common society, and all she understands is she is a girl. 

And yet, part of me hopes that her wish to go about her most trivial activities unhindered is granted. I personally like to think of children as genderless but supposing my view is flawed afterall, if this is such a big deal for others. I don't see much of a problem, especially since girls use stalls in the bathroom; who is she affecting really if she goes into the girls' bathroom and uses the toilet?



Seto Kaiba said:


> The issue with me is how young the kid is, regarding this complex issue. A first-grader seems a bit too young to have an adequate understanding to make a proper conclusion on this...If it is true, the kid will have a really tough road ahead. Children are cruel, and the fact is as they get older will realize that what one feels in their mind isn't what is always an objective case.



Again, I think people are looking at this from the outside, not understanding it's so much a _decision_, or rather a conclusion either. She's probably just acting naturally but doesn't fully realise what that means, is my estimate. It probably started as something as inane as wanting to wear what mommy wears, and wanting barbie dolls instead of trucks, without even realising its not common for boys to naturally want those things.

I agree this child is much too young to understand fully the concept of gender, and I think that makes it all the more difficult.

And yeah, being transgendered, and acting upon this so early... poor thing is going to have it rough.



Taco said:


> How the fuck does a 9 year old make such a decision...? It's obvious the parents are behind some of it... I mean they even dyed their 9 year old's hair purple?
> 
> Wacky ass parents lol. Good luck to the kid, though. It's important for the parents to consider the comfort of other kids.. It's a risky situation letting a little girl with male genitals into the girl's restroom.



Same as above. Not a decision. It's a subconcious action. Here's to hoping she has understanding teachers in the future.



Neo Arcadia said:


> People who are unfortunately handicapped deserve sympathy and help. People who can't get over their gender identity, not so much.
> 
> I just don't get it. Why can't these people accept what their body is and go with the flow? I don't feel attached to my dick and balls in the slightest and have thought of the concept of being a woman, yet I never stir up a shitstorm over being expected to go to the men's restroom.



Because, it's like trying to get over be gay, or being white; it's a part of who you are, since your brain began developing. Like being born without a finger, or too many toes, its just an relatively harmless abnormality that occurs, but people tend to fight it and judge too easily because it's internal and can't be seen. What people can't see they tend to brush off, and that goes for a great many things, but it makes it no less legitimate, and no less real. 

Some people have to struggle with the fact their brain and body don't match up, and it is no one's place to say they aren't who they say they are.


----------



## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

The Parent's and the School just don't wan't their girl students seeing a penis that's all it comes down too it's that simple.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Gino said:


> The Parent's and the School just don't wan't their girl students seeing a penis that's all it comes down too it's that simple.



Look, I don't have a lot of exerience when it comes to girls' bathrooms, but if boys' bathroom etiquette is anything to go by, nobody looks at other people's genitals in the bathroom. It's that simple. Do girls kick down the doors of other booths for surprise vagina check-ups? If not, why should they expect another girl to have a penis and make an effort to see that penis?



Fojos said:


> Then you're possibly discriminating the other girls. So the question is; discriminate one or discriminate many?



Elaborate, please. How are the other girls affected by this in any way, shape or form?


----------



## Vynjira (Feb 27, 2013)

For some reason I thoughtassumed that this topic would be pages of people agreeing with each-other..

Instead, it's full of incredible ignorance.. people claiming to be experts on car repair, at the same time trying to argue with mechanics that you can repair an engine block by filling the tire with more air.


----------



## deathgod (Feb 27, 2013)

There's just so much wrong with this....

If he has a penis then he's what we generally accept as male. If he thinks he's a girl, cool, but until he has a sex change he's still a boy, and as such, he'll have to use the male restroom. If he's mature enough to make the decision of labeling himself as a female, then he should be mature enough to accept the ramifications of that.

No offense to the kid, but he's just one kid in a school full of them. The school already provided special bathroom options for him to use, how much more special treatment does he want? Think of the other kids. How many of them are gonna be confused? Why is this guy using the girls bathroom daddy/mommy? Why is he dressed in girls clothing if he's a boy? Can I go to school in boys/girls clothing too? I'm sure not many of the other parents are gonna be happy about explain to their kids what's going on at their young age. Or about having a boy using the same bathroom as their daughters.

Best place for this kid is homeschool.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm curious, if a bunch of parents complained "Henry's hung like a horse, it's hurting my son's emotional well-being that he uses the same bathroom as my poor boy" how many would support making Henry go to the bathroom at the nurses office?


----------



## Forces (Feb 27, 2013)

This is nothing terrible compared to my 6th grader little brother school case. A bunch of 11 year old kids's class was old and damp, and they were transferred to a better one.
But after some days they were sent back to the old one because some dumb cleaner bitch asked the retarded principal to do that because she didn't want to clean 2 classrooms (which even makes no sense as the other one would be unused)


----------



## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Look, I don't have a lot of exerience when it comes to girls' bathrooms, but if boys' bathroom etiquette is anything to go by, nobody looks at other people's genitals in the bathroom. It's that simple. Do girls kick down the doors of other booths for surprise vagina check-ups? If not, why should they expect another girl to have a penis and make an effort to see that penis?



Are you trying to piss me off by being stupid because it's working with this statement you're making it seem like the likely scenario of the girls seeing the penis nigh impossible.You cafe guys always like to over complicate things.If you can't respect the wishes of the school seems like a personal problem.


----------



## Daxter (Feb 27, 2013)

Gino said:


> Are you trying to piss me off by being stupid because it's working with this statement you're making it seem like the likely scenario of the girls seeing the penis nigh impossible.You cafe guys always like to over complicate things.If you can't respect the wishes of the school seems like a personal problem.



But it is, isn't - that is, highly improbable that girls look at other girls genitalia in the bathroom.

Unlike urinals which present an opportunity to some small degree (however weird), girls use private stalls all the time. Unless someone is purposely peeking into the stall, there is no real circumstance in which they would be seeing it.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Gino said:


> Are you trying to piss me off by being stupid because it's working with this statement you're making it seem like the likely scenario of the girls seeing the penis nigh impossible.You cafe guys always like to over complicate things.If you can't respect the wishes of the school seems like a personal problem.



Okay, just how likely do you think it is that girls look at each others' pussies in the bathroom? I think you've watched too much bad porn.

You are the one who overcomplicates this by singling out one girl who is the only girl not allowed to use the girls' bathroom.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 27, 2013)

[Freud]
So you say you keep seeing penises at school?  In the bathroom?  Even when they are in a stall?

Tell me about your mother.
[/Freud]


----------



## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Daxter said:


> But it is, isn't - that is, highly improbable that girls look at other girls genitalia in the bathroom.
> 
> Unlike urinals which present an opportunity to some small degree (however weird), girls use private stalls all the time. Unless someone is purposely peeking into the stall, there is no real circumstance in which they would be seeing it.



You do know some schools in America don't even have doors for private stalls so you can actually see peeps using the restroom even the girls restrooms are like that.Source my whole school life and constant complaints of said issue by girls.Like I said before guys need to take in the whole circumstance and stop seeing what you want to see.


----------



## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Okay, just how likely do you think it is that girls look at each others' pussies in the bathroom? I think you've watched too much bad porn.
> 
> You are the one who overcomplicates this by singling out one girl who is the only girl not allowed to use the girls' bathroom.





EvilMoogle said:


> [Freud]
> So you say you keep seeing penises at school?  In the bathroom?  Even when they are in a stall?
> 
> Tell me about your mother.
> [/Freud]





Gino said:


> You do know some schools in America don't even have doors for private stalls so you can actually see peeps using the restroom even the girls restrooms are like that.Source my whole school life and constant complaints of said issue by girls.Like I said before guys need to take in the whole circumstance and stop seeing what you want to see.


......................Get the fuck outta here right now.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Gino said:


> You do know some schools in America don't even have doors for private stalls so you can actually see peeps using the restroom even the girls restrooms are like that.Source my whole school life and constant complaints of said issue by girls.Like I said before guys need to take in the whole circumstance and stop seeing what you want to see.





That seems like a situation unique to your school. I've never seen or heard of anything like it either in Europe or in the US.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 27, 2013)

Gino said:


> You do know some schools in America don't even have doors for private stalls so you can actually see peeps using the restroom even the girls restrooms are like that.Source my whole school life and constant complaints of said issue by girls.Like I said before guys need to take in the whole circumstance and stop seeing what you want to see.


I sure those girls could use the restroom in the nurses office then.  .jpg


----------



## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> That seems like a situation unique to your school. I've never seen or heard of anything like it either in Europe or in the US.



Welcome to Tennessee.



EvilMoogle said:


> I sure those girls could use the restroom in the nurses office then.  .jpg




Some schools don't even have nurses offices 

Welcome to the slums.

and for the record I'm not against the girl I'm just saying what the situation would be like for the average Parent./School


----------



## Daxter (Feb 27, 2013)

Gino said:


> You do know some schools in America don't even have doors for private stalls so you can actually see peeps using the restroom even the girls restrooms are like that.Source my whole school life and constant complaints of said issue by girls.Like I said before guys need to take in the whole circumstance and stop seeing what you want to see.



Wow America's public school funding is in a sadder situation than I thought if loo stalls haven't even any doors.  The hell? 

And I'm not seeing anything. My opinion on the girl and her gender is solidified, but this situation isn't so black and white. Neither option is wholly right, or bad choice of words, neither situation is ideal for everyone in involved, so it's a matter of choosing what causes the least damage.

Even if this situation might be confusing to some degree for her fellow students, this child also needs to be taken care of and her comfort considered as well. Simply forcing her to use the boys bathroom because she has a penis isn't a clear solution at this point.


----------



## Jena (Feb 27, 2013)

Gino said:


> You do know some schools in America don't even have doors for private stalls so you can actually see peeps using the restroom even the girls restrooms are like that.Source my whole school life and constant complaints of said issue by girls.



As a female, living in a various parts of the US for my entire life, I can honestly say that I have never encountered or heard a first hand account of this. The only thing I've found is that some high schools will temporarily remove stall doors to curb graffiti.

So I call bullshit  on these "constant complaints of said issues"

The only way you can see other people in stalls is if you stand on the toilet and look down at them, or if you stick your head under their stall. Both of which are _extremely_ socially unacceptable, to the point where it makes me uncomfortable even thinking about it.

No one is going to see you in the bathroom unless they actively try to spy on you.

And to the people here who are freaking out about how children are going to be confused and/or disturbed by someone with a penis using the girl's bathroom:
1. No one would know she had a penis unless she whipped it out...or unless the school publicly outed her.
2. Too fucking bad if it confuses them. Confusion is a natural part of life and growing up. God forbid their parents have to explain something to them. The horror.


----------



## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Daxter said:


> Wow America's public school funding is in a sadder situation than I thought if loo stalls haven't even any doors.  The hell?
> 
> *And I'm not seeing anything. My opinion on the girl and her gender is solidified, but this situation isn't so black and white. Neither option is wholly right, or bad choice of words, neither situation is ideal for everyone in involved, so it's a matter of choosing what causes the least damage*.
> 
> *Even if this situation might be confusing to some degree for her fellow students, this child also needs to be taken care of and her comfort considered as well. Simply forcing her to use the boys bathroom because she has a penis isn't a clear solution at this point*.



You'd be surprised even the stalls with doors have broken locks sowide open doors it is and I also agree with the rest.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 27, 2013)

Fund schools so they can afford doors/fix locks, everybody wins?


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## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Jena said:


> *As a female, living in a various parts of the US for my entire life, I can honestly say that I have never encountered or heard a first hand account of this. The only thing I've found is that some high schools will temporarily remove stall doors to curb graffiti.*
> 
> *So I call bullshit  on these "constant complaints of said issues"*
> 
> ...



Goddammit......

Your experiences=/= my experiences

That's all I'm gonna say.


----------



## Jena (Feb 27, 2013)

So you can make sweeping generalizations based on second-hand accounts but I can't based on first-hand accounts? Good to know.

Also, yeah, I will call your bullshit when you can't back it up. Come at me with some comprehensive study on women's bathrooms and then I'll listen.


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## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Jena said:


> So you can make sweeping generalizations based on second-hand accounts but I can't based on first-hand accounts? Good to know.
> 
> Also, yeah, I will call your bullshit when you can't back it up. Come at me with some comprehensive study on women's bathrooms and then I'll listen.



You: hurr durr you're lying.

Me:I simply said *Some* Schools (sweeping generalization) don't even  have doors/locks.My backing up it is my whole school life and constant complaints my whole 2007-2010 school year The only reason I even brought it up was my way of saying not every situation is the same in response to Daxter and Sauf.

You don't believe me that's too fucking bad.


----------



## deathgod (Feb 27, 2013)

Jena said:


> No one is going to see you in the bathroom unless they actively try to spy on you.
> 
> And to the people here who are freaking out about how children are going to be confused and/or disturbed by someone with a penis using the girl's bathroom:
> 1. No one would know she had a penis unless she whipped it out...or unless the school publicly outed her.
> 2. Too fucking bad if it confuses them. Confusion is a natural part of life and growing up. God forbid their parents have to explain something to them. The horror.



Ah was waiting for the "too fucking bad" comment

1.If he looked like a guy then I'm sure the other children would know he had a penis...
2. Same can be said to the kid. Why couldn't the parents explain to him that wanting to use the girls bathroom would be such an issue? This isn't something parents should have to explain to their kids at that age. Should parents also have to explain sex, or go into detail about how babies are made?

Also what happens when he goes thru puberty. Is he gonna be changing in the girls locker room with them? Is he gonna use the girls showers the same time as other girls?


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

deathgod said:


> Ah was waiting for the "too fucking bad" comment
> 
> 1.If he looked like a guy then I'm sure the other children would know he had a penis...





LOOK AT THAT BOY I BET HE PLAYS FOOTBALL IN THE DIRT ALL DAY.



> 2. Same can be said to the kid. Why couldn't the parents explain to him that wanting to use the girls bathroom would be such an issue? This isn't something parents should have to explain to their kids at that age. Should parents also have to explain sex, or go into detail about how babies are made?



Pretty sure that gender reassignment will prevent male puberty from kicking in.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Feb 27, 2013)

The main thing that worries me is the kid's young age, and the other kids' reactions. I just wouldn't want it to be another young person committing suicide over being ostracized for issues relating to this. Identify with whatever gender you want, some people will keep their thoughts to themselves, others will fully embrace it, but as Gino in his characteristic ignorance shows as well as others, you will have those that go outta their way to be hurtful about it. I'm still in the middle about this still tbh, I just feel such a huge issue is not something a kid that young can grasp.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> The main thing that worries me is the kid's young age, and the other kids' reactions. I just wouldn't want it to be another young person committing suicide over being ostracized for issues relating to this. Identify with whatever gender you want, some people will keep their thoughts to themselves, others will fully embrace it, but as Gino in his characteristic ignorance shows as well as others, you will have those that go outta their way to be hurtful about it. I'm still in the middle about this still tbh, I just feel such a huge issue is not something a kid that young can grasp.



Again, nobody would have to know about her being born with male genitalia. By the time it becomes an issue, i.e. when sexuality kicks in, she'd likely already have undergone gender reassignment therapy and surgery.


----------



## E (Feb 27, 2013)

this is what happens when you let liberals breed


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## Revolution (Feb 27, 2013)

> Coy's case will be the first to challenge such a restriction under the state's anti-discrimination act, the Transgener Legal Defense & Education Fund said.
> For now, the first-grader is being homeschooled.



I'd have hoped the parents either sue the school, or find a new one, under the disability protection act.  Unless there is a behavior or bullying issue with the girl, there is no reason to take her out of school.  A school is suppose to protect children, not segregate them.  The decision was devastating to a child's mental health.  And in my opinion, it should be a lesson to other girls that sometimes people have a "disability", but its okay because she can do all the other things the other kids can.


----------



## Gino (Feb 27, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> The main thing that worries me is the kid's young age, and the other kids' reactions. I just wouldn't want it to be another young person committing suicide over being ostracized for issues relating to this. Identify with whatever gender you want, some people will keep their thoughts to themselves, others will fully embrace it, but as Gino in his characteristic ignorance shows as well as others, you will have those that go outta their way to be hurtful about it. I'm still in the middle about this still tbh, I just feel such a huge issue is not something a kid that young can grasp.



..........Tell tell me about my ignorance or fuck off.I never once insulted this girl so I would appreciate it if you don't try to paint me with that brush.


----------



## deathgod (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> LOOK AT THAT BOY I BET HE PLAYS FOOTBALL IN THE DIRT ALL DAY.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure that gender reassignment will prevent male puberty from kicking in.



Not all boys play or like football

Cute kid. Looking at the pic, do any of you really believe he/she's capable of making a life changing decision at their age? I'm thinking this is more about the parents seeking attention than the kid. Which public bathroom (male/female) has he been using all this time. If he's been pissing in a boys bathroom all this time, why would he/his parents have a huge issue with him continuing to piss in the boys bathroom? His parents should have told him until his P becomes a V, he'll have to continue to use the boys bathroom in public.


----------



## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Feb 27, 2013)

So parents wanted a girl and had a boy. No problem said the doctor, it all can be fixed. I can't see how they were allowed to do that.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> So parents wanted a girl and had a boy. No problem said the doctor, it all can be fixed. I can't see how they were allowed to do that.





Feeling stupid, yet?


----------



## Jena (Feb 27, 2013)

deathgod said:


> Ah was waiting for the "too fucking bad" comment
> 
> 1.If he looked like a guy then I'm sure the other children would know he had a penis...


What if she doesn't look like a guy? 



> 2. Same can be said to the kid. Why couldn't the parents explain to him that wanting to use the girls bathroom would be such an issue? This isn't something parents should have to explain to their kids at that age. Should parents also have to explain sex, or go into detail about how babies are made?


Slippery slope there bro, let's ease back a bit. Sex and babies have nothing to do with this.

You have to ask yourself, which is potentially more psychologically damaging: a child having to ask their parents why a boy is using a girl's bathroom or a transgendered child being publicly outed as transgender (and likely bullied because of it)?

It's been highly documented that forcing transgendered children to live as their born gender effects them psychologically. 

Issues are only issues when you _make_ them issues. Parents and schools can have open and honest discussions about gender issues without making it into a huge issue. The more an adult protests something, the more a kid makes a big deal out of it because they see the adult getting upset. 

This is not an issue that's so vile that it can't be discussed with children. If a parent doesn't want their precious baby believing things like tolerance, they can tell their child whatever the fuck they want about why a boy is dressing like a girl. That's their choice as parents. 



> Also what happens when he goes thru puberty. Is he gonna be changing in the girls locker room with them? Is he gonna use the girls showers the same time as other girls?


She's not in puberty right now, so it's not an issue. She'll likely get gender reassignment surgery if she has enough money. 

Locker rooms and showers are separate issues from bathroom, IMHO. Despite the fact that you're shitting in an area with a bunch of other people, female bathrooms are largely private. Like stated earlier, you're not peeking in on the goods. So I can see locker rooms and showers raising more of a concern. But, again, not the issue right now.


Also something I've noticed: it almost always seems like these stories are about a male-to-female transgender and not the other way around....



deathgod said:


> Which public bathroom (male/female) has he been using all this time. If he's been pissing in a boys bathroom all this time, why would he/his parents have a huge issue with him continuing to piss in the boys bathroom? His parents should have told him until his P becomes a V, he'll have to continue to use the boys bathroom in public.


The article clearly said that she's been using the girl's bathroom up until now.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

Smiley said:


> Brb, going to the court house to declare myself as an orange.
> 
> My days of being a human male are completely behind me. I can't believe I've suffered like this for so many years when the very real ability to alter the nature of the universe by filling in a form was already within my reach, just out of sight.
> 
> ...



If Mider T can be a banana you can be anything you want.


----------



## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Feeling stupid, yet?



Ha! Who said I'm just talking about the case. Maybe they really wanted a boy regardless maybe they just want girls, I obviously can't read their minds. I'm pointing out the fact that such decisions should not be made by the parents alone. Was that too hard to infer? I guess it was for you.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> Ha! Who gives a fuck about the current case. Maybe they really wanted a boy regardless maybe they just want girls. I'm pointing out the fact that such decisions should not be made by the parents alone. Was that too hard to infer? I guess it was for you.



And what makes you think the parents alone decided it...? Seems like you're arguing from complete ignorance.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Feeling stupid, yet?



That doesn't say much of anything Sauf.
Which one are actually boys and girls can you point them out?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> That doesn't say much of anything Sauf.
> Which one are actually boys and girls can you point them out?



Top right is a boy, the others are girls. There is another picture that makes it even more clear:


----------



## Revolution (Feb 27, 2013)

STOP BASHING GINO, YOU COWARD!!!


----------



## Kotre (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Top right is a boy, the others are girls. There is another picture that makes it even more clear:



Is the one on the far right Coy?


----------



## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> And what makes you think the parents alone decided it...? Seems like you're arguing from complete ignorance.



What made me think that is something that you couldn't comprehend because you're too stupid or simply uniformed. In the latter case, you should just avoid arguing with people. In the former one, well there is nothing I can say to help. If you think you're not stupid and not uninformed prove it.  What made me think that way?


----------



## LesExit (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Top right is a boy, the others are girls. There is another picture that makes it even more clear:



O___O Is that Coy all the way right with the purple hair? OMG....she's so cute! :33
...screw society, already making her life unnecessarily difficult...

Their other daughters and son are adorable too!!


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 27, 2013)

deathgod said:


> His parents should have told him until his P becomes a V, he'll have to continue to use the boys bathroom in public.


To be fair that's not how it works in the real world though.

In most states if your government ID says you're female you can use the women's room.  Yes this includes pre-op transgendered.

The simplest reason for that is it attracts far more attention (and thus causes far more problems) for someone that appears female to walk into the men's room than it does for them to walk into the women's room (or someone that appears male to walk into the women's room for that matter).


----------



## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Kotre said:


> Is the one on the far right Coy?





LesExit said:


> O___O Is that Coy all the way right with the purple hair? OMG....she's so cute! :33
> ...screw society, already making her life unnecessarily difficult...
> 
> Their other daughters and son are adorable too!!



Yep, that's her. Nobody would think twice if that girl entered the girls' bathroom.



|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> What made me think that is something that you couldn't comprehend because you're too stupid or simply uniformed. In the latter case, you should just avoid arguing with people. In the former one, well there is nothing I can say to help. If you think you're not stupid and not uninformed prove it.  What made me think that way?



I take it you have no argument then?


----------



## PDQ (Feb 27, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> Personally I choose a much simpler solution, just ask her how she wishes to be treated.  When she says she's female and should use the girls restroom allow her to do so.


What if every guy says they wish to be treated like a female?  

To be honest, I don't see a problem with just having a unisex bathroom in the first place other than the perception of women taking longer to use it thus monopolizing stalls.  You could still put urinals in it.

If the concern is sexual assault, I don't see sexual assault being significantly more likely than murder/assault/muggings in the bathrooms, nor is sexual assault exclusively an intersexual issue.  If people are concerned about people getting away with criminal activity in bathrooms, they should have other ways of protecting people in them than simply separating by sex.



> Here is an article about the study.


I'd like to see more about it.  The sample sizes seem way too small.  They should at least have a sample size on par with the probability generating an expected value of transsexualism of 1(2000-4000 or whatever they estimate it at).  And maybe some attempt to isolate social causes from genetic ones.


----------



## Kotre (Feb 27, 2013)

PDQ said:


> What if every guy says they wish to be treated like a female?
> 
> To be honest, I don't see a problem with just having a unisex bathroom in the first place other than the perception of women taking longer to use it thus monopolizing stalls.  You could still put urinals in it.



Pretty much. In fact that's something my uni's doing. Providing the option for people to use a unisex toilet, or the ladies/gent's.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 27, 2013)

PDQ said:


> What if every guy says they wish to be treated like a female?


First it's not "treated like a female" it's "what if every guy says they _are_ female?"  And funny thing, in most states you have the option.  Go to the courthouse and sign up.

Oddly your what-if-everyone-does-it scenario hasn't happened and judging by the reactions in this thread is nowhere on the horizon.

(While it might be an interesting mental exercise to speculate how society would change if everyone spontaneously decided they were female I think it's slightly less likely than the zombie apocalypse)


----------



## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

It seems to me that everyone identifying as the same gender would be a real boon to society. Think of all the money spent on gender segregation that could be saved.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> It seems to me that everyone identifying as the same gender would be a real boon to society. Think of all the money spent on gender segregation that could be saved.



Think of the new problems that arise from that and why it isn't possible.

You are acting like it hasn't been done before.


Ladies and gentlemen Mr.Roosevelt.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Think of the new problems that arise from that and why it isn't possible.



Can't think of any problems with a gender egalitarian society. I never denied it's a hypothetical scenario, did you even read the posts I was replying to?



> You are acting like it hasn't been done before.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



It has indeed never happened before.


----------



## nadileal (Feb 27, 2013)

That could mean anything though.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> I never denied it's a hypothetical scenario, did you even read the posts I was replying to?
> 
> 
> 
> It has indeed never happened before.


I wouldn't know you didn't quote them.

It's not hypothetical. It's impossible.
Unless we end up being like plants.
Women are women. Men are men.
You aren't getting past that because that is absolute regardless what you think of yourself or others.


The closest thing to what you want is when both genders are in such a tough spot that the genders don't matter. Getting by living on a prayer.


----------



## PDQ (Feb 27, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> First it's not "treated like a female" it's "what if every guy says they _are_ female?"


I was just framing it based on _your_ wording "just ask her how she wishes to be treated" not "just ask her what she _is_"


> And funny thing, in most states you have the option.  Go to the courthouse and sign up.


Hmmm seems like an easy way to get around laws against gay marriage 


> Oddly your what-if-everyone-does-it scenario hasn't happened and judging by the reactions in this thread is nowhere on the horizon.


Probably because no one believes they'd be allowed into women's restrooms even if they did sign up, or if they did, that they'd be able to get any benefit out of it(hence why I see no real problems with unisex bathrooms).  And not to mention most people don't know it's even an option.
That being said, is the girl in this case legally registered as female?
What if a first grader does want to legally change genders but their parents won't allow them?  Do we allow them to legally change it anyways?  Or do we skip the legal requirement of being female and go by whatever they say when you ask?


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 27, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> I wouldn't know you didn't quote them.



Nor do I have to. It's obvious that my post didn't come out of the blue and the one I was referring to was right above mine.



> It's not hypothetical. It's impossible.
> Unless we end up being like plants.
> Women are women. Men are men.
> You aren't getting past that because that is absolute regardless what you think of yourself or others.



You're confusing biological sex and gender identity.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Nor do I have to. It's obvious that my post didn't come out of the blue and the one I was referring to was right above mine.



If I read that post at all you mean.


Saufsoldat said:


> You're confusing biological sex and gender identity.



They have to do with each other.
Unless we magically lose the ability to tell the difference between male and female what you suggest is impossible.
and even if we did magically forget the ability to do so we would do so again because that is how the human mind works.
We find differences and pick them out for it give them names.
People with penis = MALE
People with vagina= FEMALE
Come on people do we have to go through sex ed. again?


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## dummy plug (Feb 27, 2013)

kinda reminds me what happened at work months ago:

there's this cross-dresser who keeps on using the women's john and they finally complained about it...his boss told him he cant do that and he doesnt give a darn if the cross-dresser thinks he's a she, basically telling him he has a penis and therefore should use the men's...the cross-dresser then asks him if he could use the disabled's since no one practically uses it and the boss just nods


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## Mintaka (Feb 27, 2013)

> And her passport and state-issued identification recognize her as female.


This should have ended it.

I don't think the state would call it like this without some tests of it's own.  It's not like anybody can claim to feel female and get into the bathroom for pervo purposes, this is a real psychological condition.


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## navy (Feb 27, 2013)

It's a boy.


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## Bioness (Feb 28, 2013)

^ You're ill-informed.

See how that works out?



dummy plug said:


> kinda reminds me what happened at work months ago:
> 
> there's this cross-dresser who keeps on using the women's john and they finally complained about it...his boss told him he cant do that and he doesnt give a darn if the cross-dresser thinks he's a she, basically telling him he has a penis and therefore should use the men's...the cross-dresser then asks him if he could use the disabled's since no one practically uses it and the boss just nods



That's not a cross-dresser then.

Cross-dressing =/= transgender


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## dummy plug (Feb 28, 2013)

Bioness said:


> ^ You're ill-informed.
> 
> See how that works out?
> 
> ...



i never said a cross-dresser and a transgender are the same, i merely stated that the story reminded me of that incident at work...and yes he wears a dress and heels to work so he's a cross-dresser.


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## Koi No Yokan (Feb 28, 2013)

He should still use the female toilet as he has been recognized legally as being transgendered and identifying as female. What some here do not understand at all is that you cannot just turn around and say that you think you are a X person/thing and legally become that. Being transgendered is likely something that a person has always been and has never known mentally what it feels like to identify as their birth sex, at least it is in this case. In the case of getting granted legal right to change gender on paper, it usually requires a period of study and evaluation on an individual. A person can be distressed within themself knowing that they are physically say a male but mentally identify as female.

I get why many people discredit transgendered individuals however, they simply cannot believe that a person cannot be their biological birth sex, which is seemingly the case physically. However the main thing is that transgenderism it is treated as a mental state and that the identified as a psychological gender, not particularly the physical sex. Of course this leads to the point of wanting to physically become the /dress as the gender you believe you are more and more.

And no it has nothing to do with Oranges or the universe. I understand what you mean by using these examples however to discredit the notion that a person feels and believes they are female when they were born male physically. Using that example you paint the picture that a transgendered individual has chosen to be something they are not, just as a man saying he is an orange is saying they are something they are not. However mentally they may have never understood anything but being a female, even if to to you and many in our society this seems laughable or implausible as they are not currently physically as such. But then how do you exactly force a person to think differently, simple education doesn't work nor does disciplining a transgendered person in hope that they act as their biological gender, because they may have never be able to change the way they think, nor should they have to. This kind of disbelief and mocking of their mindstate has caused so much depression and suicide among transgendered individuals. I guess to many the idea seems impossible to agree with, and frankly it is unlikely any will ever sway your opinion on such a thing.

I fully expect the reply will be something along the lines of "but If I've ever only believed I was an orange should I be allowed to be declared as a orange legally", to bad that an orange cannot think or do anything mentally, so identifying mentally as being one is a bit hard 



dummy plug said:


> and yes he wears a dress and heels to work so he's a cross-dresser.



Don't want to argue here but

A crossdresser is a male/female who dresses in the opposite genders clothing but still identifies as a their physical sex (male/female)

A transgendered individual is a person who psychologically feels that they are actually the opposite gender (also may dress as said gender). In their mind they always have been mentally, even if their physical body is not the gender that they identify with in their mind.

Using crossdresser as a term implies that he would still believe he is a man.


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## dummy plug (Feb 28, 2013)

Koi No Yokan said:


> Don't want to argue here but
> 
> A crossdresser is a male/female who dresses in the opposite genders clothing but still identifies as a their physical sex (male/female)
> 
> ...



notice that i still use "he" to describe him because he's not gay, he just likes wearing dresses and he loves the attention so yeah, cross-dresser indeed.


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## Gunners (Feb 28, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> [sp][/sp]
> 
> Thank you for this well-thought-out response, Gunners. Clearly your arguments are superior to mine and I am now fully convinced that a 6-year-old child in a girls' bathroom poses a public security risk.


(Smiley face) remind me to neg you again. 


Saufsoldat said:


> There are no reasonable concerns. She's a child, there is absolutely nothing that can happen if she's allowed to use the same bathroom as the other girls. What you're trying to say is that the school must cater to the other parents' bigotry, nothing more and there I have to disagree. The school should always act in the best interest of the children.
> 
> And don't give me that bullshit about using the nurse's or the disabled toilet, that will lead to just as much questioning and bullying.



I didn't say the parents' concerns were reasonable I actually made a point of saying their concerns were understandable because their children are in no real danger. As for why their concerns are understandable, it is to be expected that some parents may not want their children exposed to certain concepts at a young age, they may feel uncomfortable with their child pissing in the same room as the opposite gender yada yada yada. I suppose the school could write a letter to the parents in an attempt to reassure them that no harm will come to their child but having a dismissive attitude towards their complaints/concerns is not the right approach to take as it undermines their approach to parenting. 

You talk about doing what's best for the children? Maybe they did, a kid pissing in the disabled or nurse's toilet is not going to garner much attention. Kids listening to their parents bad mouthing a child or parents petitioning against the school would. Obviously that point goes out of the window due to the media attention this case has received but that's a result of the kids parents and I doubt the school foresaw this level of exposure.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 28, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Hmmm seems like an easy way to get around laws against gay marriage


That's actually been brought up a number of times.  I'm not aware however of any cases where it's actually happened.

And (again in most states, specific laws/verbiage may vary) it's an option.  All you'd have to do is make some statements and have some documents altered as to fundamentally change the way that you're viewed by society.  I can't imagine why gay people, many of whom have fought for years to be accepted for who they are, would object to having to lie about who they are in order to get married 

This case (and others like it) are the exact flip of that though.  Imagine, just for the moment, that due to some clerical error your birth certificate incorrectly marked you as female (I'm assuming you're male?).  Your parents either didn't notice or didn't think it mattered enough to change since obviously you're male.

When you were enrolled in school they looked at your records and said "you're female, you'll use the girls restroom, be in the girls group for gym, wear the girl's uniform, and grouped with the girls for lessons when appropriate."  Objections you raise, including the very obvious biological ones, are ignored or mocked pointing at your birth certificate as the end-of-story.

Boy's don't want to play with you because you have cooties.  To the girls you're the creepy weird girl that keeps saying she's a boy.  Try to date one of the girls when you get older?  Gay.

Can you imagine just for a moment how fucked up that would make your life?

Now conversely let's imagine the school supported you ignoring the obviously wrong certificate.  They let you dress the way you thought you should dress, use the restroom you think is the right one for you, and generally address you and treat you using the terms that you think are right for you.  Unless you bring it up to the rest of the class they will likely never know.

While you will still likely have some significant challenges in the latter based on the former (not the least of which is how other schools react) at least for a while life will be better.




PDQ said:


> That being said, is the girl in this case legally registered as female?


Yes, her state-issued-id and her passport both list her as female.



PDQ said:


> What if a first grader does want to legally change genders but their parents won't allow them?  Do we allow them to legally change it anyways?  Or do we skip the legal requirement of being female and go by whatever they say when you ask?


Then it obviously becomes a more complicated issue.  The long-and-short of it is the parents have legal custody of children until they reach the age of majority so it would lie with them (though one hopes the parents would listen to their kids and at least seek informed advice of a professional in a given complex situation).


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## DremolitoX (Feb 28, 2013)

Poor kid must have some of the shittiest parents in the world. It's like if trism, vinjira, *or narcissus* raised a child.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Byrd (Feb 28, 2013)

There is a high chance his parents have something to do with this


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## Vasto Lorde King (Feb 28, 2013)

People nowadays. First of all don't you fucking realise? That this is just a mere *kid* who interacts with *other kids* of the same age? This isn't high school or anything no they are fucking kids for god's sake. Ofcourse people are not going to be as easy and go all like:_ ''Well they just have to accept that you are girl. Everything will be all right.''_ This isn't some kind of fucking fairy tail or some kind of movie in which the producers can create an all end good ending. No these are underage people who are mentally and physically not ready to be talking about these descisions heck even people of my age(19) can still fuck up. And somehow the school is at fault here? They even offered *him* to use the nurses toilet. 

Not is this only damaging to his upbringing but the other kids as well. Kids of that age shouldn't be thinking about crap like this. Heck I'm almost willing to bet my left testicle that this crap is all the parents fault or the fault of some kind of outside source. It's the school's duty to protect it's children so if the school is preventing him from using the girls toilet then it doesn't automatically make them primitive ignorant bigots that don't know better.

Ya know the funny thing is that homosexuals and transgenderd people whine about bieng bullied,opression and all that other stuff. And how they want to be accepted but throwing your sexual orientations or whatever  its called in our faces is not going work either. I'm not saying they should be bullied or anything personally I have no problem with them but if people don't want thier kids to be exposed to such things yet they should have the goddamn right to do so. 

On top of his questionable upbringing the guy is still physically a fucking* bro with balls and dick.* I don't see why innocent children should be exposed to such an travesty of actual trangenders/crossdressers simply because one individual comes with an unreasonable demand that not only damages himself but his surroundings as well.

To all those people who call us *nay sayers* ignorant  etc . If bieng ignorant means protecting your still developing children from crossdressers and other subjects for which they are still to young to understand. Then I'd glady be an ignorant bigot.

Fuck his parents and anybody who thinks this is okay. I hope that people who have similar thought process and still uphold it don't ever have or get to raise a kid.


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## Mochi (Feb 28, 2013)

I remember when I beat the shit out of a boy when he entered the girl's restroom.


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## Daxter (Feb 28, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> If I read that post at all you mean.
> 
> 
> They have to do with each other.
> ...



They're related most of the time but not bound, their position not fixed as their body might be. They can and do work independently.

Do you think all intersexed persons (and there are millions) are gender-ambiguous? No. Most have a recognisable gender based on what their brain tells them, regardless of their ambiguous sexual organs. You've met several average dudes and nice looking girls, and without being aware of it interact with them based on how they present themselves to you - as a girl or a guy. You never once asked them to drop their pants first, did you? But if you could (legally), and they complied for some reason, you might have been surprised.

In fact, most 'regular' men and women are not even entirely hypermasculine or hyperfeminine. Gender is not, and has never been a one or the other type scenario.

Not all societies, even modern ones are necessarily cisgender. This goes beyond your sixth grade sexual education class, this gender business is a psychological reality that most people are still not informed about. You learned about penises and vaginas as a basic in sex ed. when you were a child; now as an adult, learn that the world is not so black and white, not to mention it's a lot more fascinating, too.



Tensa IchiGetsu said:


> People nowadays. First of all don't you fucking realise? That this is just a mere *kid* who interacts with *other kids* of the same age? This isn't high school or anything no they are fucking kids for god's sake. Ofcourse people are not going to be as easy and go all like:_ ''Well they just have to accept that you are girl. Everything will be all right.''_ This isn't some kind of fucking fairy tail or some kind of movie in which the producers can create an all end good ending. No these are underage people who are mentally and physically not ready to be talking about these descisions heck even people of my age(19) can still fuck up. And somehow the school is at fault here? They even offered *him* to use the nurses toilet.
> 
> Not is this only damaging to his upbringing but the other kids as well. Kids of that age shouldn't be thinking about crap like this. Heck I'm almost willing to bet my left testicle that this crap is all the parents fault or the fault of some kind of outside source. It's the school's duty to protect it's children so if the school is preventing him from using the girls toilet then it doesn't automatically make them primitive ignorant bigots that don't know better.
> 
> ...



The ignorance (and sheer eloquence) of this post is staggering. I could say just that, but it bears worth asking that you read more of this thread first. Perhaps some actual information regarding this child's situation might penetrate your skull for even a moment, and it will be worth it.

This isn't an issue because this child is transgendered (not a _bro_ with balls and a dick, you buffoon). It's an issue because other people outside she and her family are making it an issue.


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## Gino (Feb 28, 2013)

and around and around we go.


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## Shiftiness (Feb 28, 2013)

Daxter said:


> The ignorance (and sheer eloquence) of this post is staggering.



It's not really eloquent; it's just long for a forum post.


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## Daxter (Feb 28, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> It's not really eloquent; it's just long for a forum post.



It was sarcasm. I'm well aware.


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## Shiftiness (Feb 28, 2013)

Daxter said:


> It was sarcasm. I'm well aware.



That's a relief.


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## Gino (Feb 28, 2013)

So how exactly would this issue be resolved?


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## abc123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Gino said:


> So how exactly would this issue be resolved?


Cut off his dick. All is well.


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## Daxter (Feb 28, 2013)

Gino said:


> So how exactly would this issue be resolved?



Fair enough. For all the bickering and hypothesising, this is the real question.

As long as it isn't the boys' washroom, I would say any solution would be better than that. It's unfortunate but perhaps the nurse's washroom is the only semi-considerate offer if people really can't handle it. They're blowing it up out of proportion, but whut do.

Guess her lesson on being treated differently is coming sooner rather than later. It's sad to think this is entirely a parents' issue, I bet none of the children think anything of Coy's gender.


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## Velocity (Feb 28, 2013)

Gino said:


> So how exactly would this issue be resolved?



Let the kid use whatever toilets she wants. If it helps, suggest that she go to the toilet during class instead of between class so nobody can complain that she walked in on them on the loo. It's hardly a big deal, though, and I've never seen a girl's toilet without stalls - so it's not like anyone is going to be peeking at anyone else's private parts.


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## Narcissus (Feb 28, 2013)

DremolitoX said:


> Poor kid must have some of the shittiest parents in the world. It's like if trism or vinjira raised a child.



Pretty sure the only shitty parent would be you, as the child would be raised in a household of bigotry.


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 28, 2013)

I cannot shake this feeling of wariness regarding the parents, tbh. It wouldn't be unusual to discover they are using the kid for media exposure or some other reason.


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## abc123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Narcissus said:


> Pretty sure the only shitty parent would be you, as the child would be raised in a household of bigotry.


Would you encourage your child to crossdress, dye their hair unnatural colours and bring a shit load of public attention to them? As far as I'm concerned, they've basically put a target on their kids backs. They can never be normal.


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## Narcissus (Feb 28, 2013)

Rothwell said:


> Would you encourage your child to crossdress, dye their hair unnatural colours and bring a shit load of public attention to them? As far as I'm concerned, they've basically put a target on their kids backs. They can never be normal.



What are you blathering about? I haven't mentioned anything about this issue, but responded to someone spouting nonsense about other people, because he has demonstrated bigotry in more places than this thread.


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## Sunuvmann (Feb 28, 2013)

Call me a bit Cis for saying this (and yes I think the term cisgendered is absolute lunacy) but the kid is way too young to decide "I'm a girl trapped in a boy's body". They may change their mind come puberty.


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## Bioness (Feb 28, 2013)

dummy plug said:


> notice that i still use "he" to describe him because he's not gay, he just likes wearing dresses and he loves the attention so yeah, cross-dresser indeed.



Transgenders =/= gay

But it is your situation, I don't think it is just for attention but if this person still identifies as a male then yes he is a cross dresser, however if this person insisted that they be referred to as a female and has the documentation, hormone therapy, etc to go along with it, then they are a transgender.



Sunuvmann said:


> Call me a bit Cis for saying this (and yes I think the term cisgendered is absolute lunacy) but the kid is way too young to decide "I'm a girl trapped in a boy's body". They may change their mind come puberty.




Why is cisgender lunacy? It just means you are not transgendered.

As for her age,

gender identity =/= sexual orientation or sexual identity and so is nearly always static and stable. It is no different than when you were 5 years old and knew you were a male and were fine with that, this person likely initially refuses to accept they are male even at a young age, as their mind does not match their body. If you were to force them to continue to be treated and act as a male you could cause severe psychological harm which is what most transgender people go through at a young age.

This is similar to a situation where a child is born intersex and the families play flip the coin on their sex  because they have it ingrained in their minds that their are only 2 sexes. So this child born a mixture is surgically altered to fix a single sex at a young age with the parents treating them that way. I'm sure you can guess what happens around the time puberty hits.

The parents are knowledgeable to realize what harm this can do to their child and goes with the route of letting them express themselves without the dichotomous restrictions society has placed.


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## Byrd (Feb 28, 2013)

Some of yall suggestions are crazy... Lets let the male use the woman's restroom... these kids won't be able to tell the difference in sex..

Really?

People need to start using common sense


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## abc123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Narcissus said:


> What are you blathering about? I haven't mentioned anything about this issue, but responded to someone spouting nonsense about other people, because he has demonstrated bigotry in more places than this thread.


As far as I care you implied what the kids parents were doing was right by saying he's being a bigot. I think the parents are bad too. Does that make me a bigot? No, it's an opinion.

Also haven't read any of his other posts too; if this is a response to a collective of his posts maybe you should do it in a PM.


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## Narcissus (Feb 28, 2013)

Rothwell said:


> As far as I care


I couldn't care less what you care about. 


> you implied


No, I meant exactly what I wrote. It was you who took it some other way.





> if this is a response to a collective of his posts maybe you should do it in a PM.


It was a response to nonsensical attacks he made on other people in the thread. Tell him that.

As if I'd listen to advice from you to begin with.


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## DremolitoX (Feb 28, 2013)

Narcissus said:


> Pretty sure the only shitty parent would be you, as the child would be raised in a household of bigotry.



LOL. at it again, eh? This is the second time you've come at me with butthurt. .

Give it a rest, huh?


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## Narcissus (Feb 28, 2013)

DremolitoX said:


> LOL. at it again, eh? This is the second time you've come at me with butthurt. .
> 
> Give it a rest, huh?



You finished spouting stupidity?


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## LesExit (Feb 28, 2013)

I feel like it really isn't complicated., unless you make it complicated. 
_"Mommy, why did those two boys kiss?" 
"Because sweetie they love each other, just like Daddy and I love each other." 
"Oh! OK Mommy :33"_

_"Daddy, someone told me that Lily had boy parts, but I thought she was a girl. She told me she was a girl."
"She is a girl honey! Even if she's different on the outside, what really matters is whats inside, and inside she is a girl."
"Ooooh! Then...how do I know if I'm really a girl?"
"Well what do you feel inside?"
"Umm...I feel like a girl! Just like Lilly!"
"Then a girl you are! Lets go eat oatmeal and play with rats!"
"YAY DADDY I LOVE OATMEAL AND RATS! :33"_

I mean thats really as simple as the conversations would need to go and if the kids ask more questions, then answer them!

Everyones ideas of protecting children from these things, are exactly what is breeding so much hatred and judgement later on in their lives. I don't really get why so many parents don't just have these conversations with their kids. I guess it's cause it makes them uncomfortable...but if their parents just spoke to them like above it probably wouldn't.


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## Sunuvmann (Feb 28, 2013)

Bioness said:


> Why is cisgender lunacy? It just means you are not transgendered.


Assigning a term for 99% of a population is pretty ridiculous.


> As for her age,
> 
> gender identity =/= sexual orientation or sexual identity and so is nearly always static and stable. It is no different than when you were 5 years old and knew you were a male and were fine with that, this person likely initially refuses to accept they are male even at a young age, as their mind does not match their body. If you were to force them to continue to be treated and act as a male you could cause severe psychological harm which is what most transgender people go through at a young age.
> 
> ...


When I was 5 I didn't even know girls had vaginas.

If the kid prefers girls clothes and all that fine, let em do that.

If when they get older and more knowledgeable of the world and decides that they really are a girl in a boy's body, sure, do that.

I'm of the feeling the parents jumped to a conclusion and probably don't understand what's going on in the kid's head.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 28, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> I'm of the feeling the parents jumped to a conclusion and probably don't understand what's going on in the kid's head.


This is, in all fairness, quite possible.

But, again in all fairness, who knows the child better, the person who read a ~1000 word article about the child?  Or the parents that have lived with the child for 5-6 years?

And just like how you'd like to give the child the chance to make a decision later in life, perhaps we should respect her decision now even if it ends up changing?


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## Bioness (Feb 28, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Assigning a term for 99% of a population is pretty ridiculous.



You are right so let's remove the words fertile, sighted, hearing, healthy, and even the words overweight and obese, since we are getting to that point, because hey there needn't be words for the majority, only for minorities because they are different.



> When I was 5 I didn't even know girls had vaginas.
> 
> If the kid prefers girls clothes and all that fine, let em do that.
> 
> ...



You are underestimating the mental capacity of a 5 year old. They are aware that there are mainly two set genders, they don't have to know about penises and vaginas for them to know what is male and female. Are you saying unless you can see the primary sex characteristics of a person you can't tell if they are male or female? (in most cases)


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## Sunuvmann (Feb 28, 2013)

(Full disclosure, I'm somewhat biased against transgendered and transexual people because of porn and well...'traps'. Females being beauty I'm attracted to and males being something I'm repulsed by, trans people I find to be desecrating that beauty. So while I'm firmly of the opinion people should be themselves, do what makes them happy, I find myself very much repulsed. It kinda saddens me when I like to think of myself rather enlightened for a straight, white, male. :/ )


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## Bioness (Feb 28, 2013)

At least you are willing to admit it. Everyone has bias, Sunuvmann, but it is up to us to try and see beyond them.

I'll admit I do think the age is rather young, but the more I think about it the more I see it to be easily plausible especially given the family. Not saying them being so open caused their now daughter to think she can do anything, but by them being open their child didn't feel pressured to keep it a secret for years to come.


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## Sunuvmann (Feb 28, 2013)

Bioness said:


> You are right so let's remove the words fertile, sighted, hearing, healthy, and even the words overweight and obese, since we are getting to that point, because hey there needn't be words for the majority, only for minorities because they are different.


And you rarely ever hear those words used for vast majorities.

Point being its silly to try and make up words for the norm and differentiate yourself from a population further.




> You are underestimating the mental capacity of a 5 year old. They are aware that there are mainly two set genders, they don't have to know about penises and vaginas for them to know what is male and female. Are you saying unless you can see the primary sex characteristics of a person you can't tell if they are male or female? (in most cases)


Actually yeah.

I remember one time I accidently walked in on a girl when I was a little kid who had short hair and was like hey, where's your penis? <_>

The only idea little kids have of sexes is ok, looks like me is guy, doesnt look like me is a girl.

see: Goku in early chapters of Dragonball


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## Daxter (Feb 28, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> And you rarely ever hear those words used for vast majorities.
> 
> Point being its silly to try and make up words for the norm and differentiate yourself from a population further.



It's not a word someone made up for the sake of further separating themselves, it's simply the word to describe how it is. My shirt is black, the population is largely cisgender. It's an adjective if anything, not so much a label. You're straight, in the context of sexuality, and like that, you're cisgender in the context of gender.


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## DremolitoX (Feb 28, 2013)

Narcissus said:


> You finished spouting stupidity?



You seem really offended. I wonder why

I'll edit my first post in this thread, to see if it makes you feel better!


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## Narcissus (Feb 28, 2013)

DremolitoX said:


> You seem really offended. I wonder why
> 
> I'll edit my first post in this thread, to see if it makes you feel better!



The  only  one who is  offended is  you, as all the people  you named have trashed your so much.


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## Vasto Lorde King (Feb 28, 2013)

Daxter said:


> The ignorance (and sheer eloquence) of this post is staggering. I could say just that, but it bears worth asking that you read more of this thread first. Perhaps some actual information regarding this child's situation might penetrate your skull for even a moment, and it will be worth it.
> 
> This isn't an issue because this child is transgendered (not a _bro_ with balls and a dick, you buffoon). It's an issue because other people outside she and her family are making it an issue.





He's still a bro with a dick and balls.

Damn accidently repped Bioness.


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## DremolitoX (Feb 28, 2013)

Narcissus said:


> The  only  one who is  offended is  you, as all the people  you named have trashed your so much.



I have never talked to those first two guys, much less argued, and all you do is call me names and neg me like a half witted manchild.

This is what you call "trashing"? Are you going to call me stupid and a bigot again? Oh, yea, that will show me! Good job on trashing me!

You're stupid, kid.


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## Daxter (Feb 28, 2013)

Tensa IchiGetsu said:


> He's still a bro with a dick and balls.
> 
> Damn accidently repped Bioness.



Did _you_ read the article?

And my reference to that... whatever you want to call it was just pointing out your maturity _Einstein_. He's not a bro, _she's_ just a little kid who deserves respect when being referred to.


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## Eskimo (Feb 28, 2013)

The school is in a tough position, I think there's problems no matter which sex' restroom she uses. The article does mention a gender-neutral restroom though - if that's available surely there wouldn't be any issue? The fact that it's a faculty restroom is of relatively minor importance, it's not like going to the toilet is of social significance.

I wonder how a kid that age can even identify as the opposite gender though. She certainly isn't mature enough to knowingly decide or convey that she feels like her gender identity doesn't match with her physical one. So I can only assume it's a motion of her parents for some twisted reason, like to gain attention. Which is pretty much what happened, this shouldn't be a big deal.


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## Jon Moxley (Feb 28, 2013)

Would this issue be more  unstable   if it was a hermaphrodite boy?


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## Vasto Lorde King (Feb 28, 2013)

Daxter said:


> Did _you_ read the article?
> 
> And my reference to that... whatever you want to call it was just pointing out your maturity _Einstein_. He's not a bro, _she's_ just a little kid who deserves respect when being referred to.



She? Don't give me that he clearly has his male sexual reproductive organs as stated in the article just because he thinks that he's a girl doesn't mean he is. He's still a bro with a dick and balls. The difference here is that this bro likes to crossdress.


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

I think we should evaluate the mental stability of the parents. A six-year old doesn't know any better. And I don't care what you "identify" as. If you have a dick and an XY chromosone, you're a boy. (Hermaphrodites make up less than 1%, so we'll cross that bridge if we get to it.)

Why are the parents raising him to be a girl? I have nothing against gays, but they should do they with their own choices when they are smart enough to make them. A first grader doesn't know any better. 

Is this forums really this Liberal? If I said I "Identify" as a woman, and go to a women restroom, how long before you think I get arrested? XD

If a 6 year old says they want to be a mermaid, does that mean we should cut off her legs and surgically attach her to a fish? Again, I say they are too young to know better. The school needs to grow a spine and tell those parents to deal with it.


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## Shizune (Feb 28, 2013)

Smiley said:


> She? He's a boy.
> 
> A place of primary education isn't a particularly great place to try and confuse children about the concept of gender. Well, no, actually, I take that back. I suppose it is the _perfect_ place to try and confuse children about the concept of gender, if that's your demented goal.
> 
> ...



The fact that this kind of ignorant bigotry is allowed on the forums is, frankly, disappointing. Smiley, you're transphobic as fuck and you have no place in any discussion regarding transgender people.


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## Shiftiness (Feb 28, 2013)

Tensa IchiGetsu said:


> She? Don't give me that he clearly has his male sexual reproductive organs as stated in the article just because he thinks that he's a girl doesn't mean he is. He's still a bro with a dick and balls. The difference here is that this bro likes to crossdress.



Obviously explaining to you why many people don't treat gender as if it were defined by genetalia* or chromosomes would be a waste of time. So I'll just say this: _using someone's preferred pronouns when referring to them is a matter of common courtesy_. You should probably get into the habit now.

*Incidentally, does anyone else hate the fact the school is publically talking about her genitals? How humiliating must that be? Jesus.


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

So are the parents giving him female hormone pills and cross dressing him at that age? This is sad. If he was doing it on his own, that's one thing, but he's just a kid. When I was 6 I wasn't thinking about sexuality and orientation. I don't think any kids should.


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## Shiftiness (Feb 28, 2013)

Plague said:


> So are the parents giving him female hormone pills and cross dressing him at that age? This is sad. If he was doing it on his own, that's one thing, but he's just a kid. When I was 6 I wasn't thinking about sexuality and orientation. I don't think any kids should.



Yes, well you didn't have gender identity disorder. So you didn't have to.


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> Yes, well you didn't have Gender identity disorder. So you didn't have to.



He's six, he doesn't have no "gender identity" disorder. He probably played with a doll one day and his parents tripped. Kids say crazy stuff all the time.

Just because a kids says he wants to be a girl, DOES NOT mean you should follow through with it. Especially at his age! 

Kids say they want to be cats and dogs. Should we start giving them pheromones? 

Seems a little irresponsible.


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## Vasto Lorde King (Feb 28, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> Obviously explaining to you why many people don't treat gender as if it were defined by genetalia* or chromosomes would be a waste of time. So I'll just say this: _using someone's preferred pronouns when referring to them is a matter of common courtesy_. You should probably get into the habit now.



I don't have a problem with gays and everything inbetween but what pisses me of here is that a 9 year old kid is already busy with crossdressing. If the kid was older I would definately treat him as any other human no matter how he looks. Kids aren't supposed to do this stuff.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 28, 2013)

Plague said:


> Is this forums really this Liberal? If I said I "Identify" as a woman, and go to a women restroom, how long before you think I get arrested? XD


If you have a state-issued ID and passport that identify you as female I'm going to go with "never."


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 28, 2013)

Gino said:


> and around and around we go.



[YOUTUBE]aSjGXT9rwJ8[/YOUTUBE]


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## Shiftiness (Feb 28, 2013)

Plague said:


> He's six, he doesn't have no "gender identity" disorder. He probably played with a doll one day and his parents tripped. Kids say crazy stuff all the time.
> 
> Just because a kids says he wants to be a girl, DOES NOT mean you should follow through with it. Especially at his age!
> 
> ...



I deliberately used the correct terminology -- gender identity disorder -- so that you would consider educating yourself before further demonstrating your ignorance.


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> If you have a state-issued ID and passport that identify you as female I'm going to go with "never."



Even if the person has facial hair a dick and testicles? Wow, that's corrupt.


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> I deliberately used the correct terminology -- gender identity disorder -- so that you would consider educating yourself before further demonstrating your ignorance.



Anyone who would cross dress and pill pop a six year old is the real ignorant one. :\


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## Narcissus (Feb 28, 2013)

DremolitoX said:


> I have never talked to those first two guys, much less argued, and all you do is call me names and neg me like a half witted manchild.
> 
> This is what you call "trashing"? Are you going to call me stupid and a bigot again? Oh, yea, that will show me! Good job on trashing me!
> 
> You're stupid, kid.



That was about the most impotent attempt at a comeback I've seen, and that's saying something.



You're  beneath me.


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## LesExit (Feb 28, 2013)

I think people are kinda underestimating the mind of kids. Many transgendered people say they first realized they were different around the ages 5...6...7. Kids can see that they're different or that somethings wrong. They can very well observe their surroundings and see how girls and boys live and feel without a doubt that they should be like the one they aren't. I really doubt that they took one of their sons and forced him to do "girl" things. I think they simply listened to their child and embraced how they said they felt. Theres nothing wrong with how Coy felt either. If Coy feels like a girl and wants to be a girl, then as far as I'm concerned she's a girl.


Tensa IchiGetsu said:


> I don't have a problem with gays and everything inbetween but what pisses me of here is that a 9 year old kid is already busy with crossdressing. If the kid was older I would definately treat him as any other human no matter how he looks. Kids aren't supposed to do this stuff.


What stuff? What exactly is Coy doing which is wrong? I've yet to see anything wrong. Just a sweet little kid living as the gender which feels correct to them.


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

I shoulda read the first page more. A lot of them already made the points I'm making lol.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 28, 2013)

Plague said:


> I think we should evaluate the mental stability of the parents. A six-year old doesn't know any better. And I don't care what you "identify" as. If you have a dick and an XY chromosone, you're a boy. (Hermaphrodites make up less than 1%, so we'll cross that bridge if we get to it.)
> 
> Why are the parents raising him to be a girl? I have nothing against gays, but they should do they with their own choices when they are smart enough to make them. A six graders doesn't know any better.



Transgenderism in children is well-documented and most transgendered people will tell you that they've felt the way they do since they were very small children.



> Is this forums really this Liberal? If I said I "Identify" as a woman, and go to a women restroom, how long before you think I get arrested? XD



How about if you get your legal documents changed so that you're officially recognized as a woman then? Really, this whole "lol i could just say i'm a woman and go to the girls room, rofl i'm so smart" is just completely idiotic when you take into account that none of those idiots would actually go through with it and apply for a legal gender transition.



> If a 6 year old says they want to be a mermaid, does that mean we should cut off her legs and surgically attach her to a fish? Again, I say they are too young to know better. The school needs to grow a spine and tell those parents to deal with it.



Nobody is talking about any surgery and the difference between a man and a woman is not the same as between a human and anything non-human.


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## DremolitoX (Feb 28, 2013)

Narcissus said:


> That was about the most impotent attempt at a comeback I've seen, and that's saying something.
> 
> 
> 
> You're  beneath me.



Damn, you're so cool!


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Transgenderism in children is well-documented and most transgendered people will tell you that they've felt the way they do since they were very small children.



Sorry, but that sounds like bullshit. Maybe you can say that when you're older, but as it stands, a kid could just be saying things. They do it all the time. It doesn't mean give the hormones and cross dress him. That's insanely feeble minded. 



> How about if you get your legal documents changed so that you're officially recognized as a woman then? Really, this whole "lol i could just say i'm a woman and go to the girls room, rofl i'm so smart" is just completely idiotic when you take into account that none of those idiots would actually go through with it and apply for a legal gender transition.



The point I was making is it's asinine to make gender a choice. You can ignore reality all you want, it won't make it true. If you have boys parts, your a boy. 

Taken from the comments section of the article by a Mr. Christopher Jone:

"Everyone has the right to their own opinion... but not to their own reality.
I may be 100% convinced that I am a world famous astronaut. I may be absolutely sure of it, but it doesn't mean that NASA has to give me a ride to the space station.
My opinion does not change the fact that I am not an astronaut. Being an astronaut is not subjective."



> Nobody is talking about any surgery and the difference between a man and a woman is not the same as between a human and anything non-human.



So he hasn't had surgery or no pills? Just a boy dressing as a girl? Then why should he be going to the girls bathroom? To make him "feel" better? You're asking everyone to comply with your demands. Your frivolous demands. If he had a disability or injury, I could understand. But this is not lol


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 28, 2013)

Plague said:


> Even if the person has facial hair a dick and testicles? Wow, that's corrupt.


I know a number of women with facial hair, should I request that they be barred from the work women's room? 

As for the presence or absence of a dick I can't recall ever having been checked myself when going to the restroom.  I suspect were I to institute a policy of checking that would be a far bigger disturbance than what I find


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## Byrd (Feb 28, 2013)

These comments are hilarious


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

I think this kid's gender identity issues might just lie with the parents desire for a daughter, not his own decisions.


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## LesExit (Feb 28, 2013)

Plague said:


> I think this kid's gender identity issues might just lie with the parents desire for a daughter, not his own decisions.


They only already had 4 others though .___.

and why would they do it with just Coy. Why not their other son?


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 28, 2013)

Plague said:


> I think this kid's gender identity issues might just lie with the parents desire for a daughter, not his own decisions.


I think it's impressive you can diagnose that from a one-page article 

(Psst, they have 3 other daughters and a son)


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

LesExit said:


> They only already had 4 others though .___.
> 
> and why would they do it with just Coy. Why not their other son?



Coy is the prototype lol


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 28, 2013)

for those interested.  Apparently her father was a marine.


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> I think it's impressive you can diagnose that from a one-page article
> 
> (Psst, they have 3 other daughters and a son)



You say that like it's a bad thing. Yeah, it's speculation, but I reached that conclusion due to them having so many daughters. Maybe they just thought it'd be easier.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 28, 2013)

Plague said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing. Yeah, it's speculation, but I reached that conclusion due to them having so many daughters. Maybe they just thought it'd be easier.


You reached the conclusion before you had the facts you used?

Are you a wizard?


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## Plague (Feb 28, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> You reached the conclusion before you had the facts you used?
> 
> Are you a wizard?



An ArchMage actually.


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## Syed (Feb 28, 2013)

LesExit said:


> They only already had 4 others though .___.
> 
> and why would they do it with just Coy. *Why not their other son?*



They will in due time.


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## LesExit (Feb 28, 2013)

Syed said:


> They will in due time.


.......

Doubt it >u>


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 28, 2013)

Plague said:


> Sorry, but that sounds like bullshit. Maybe you can say that when you're older, but as it stands, a kid could just be saying things. They do it all the time. It doesn't mean give the hormones and cross dress him. That's insanely feeble minded.



So you can block out any hard science with "that sounds like bullshit"? Interesting, I guess all those psychologists need to find a new field of study.



> The point I was making is it's asinine to make gender a choice. You can ignore reality all you want, it won't make it true. If you have boys parts, your a boy.



Nonono, don't just skip the part where I debunked your argument. I know what your point was, I just told you why it's a shitty point to make. Nobody goes through a legal gender transition just for the heck of it, so cut the bullshit.



> Taken from the comments section of the article by a Mr. Christopher Jone:
> 
> "Everyone has the right to their own opinion... but not to their own reality.
> I may be 100% convinced that I am a world famous astronaut. I may be absolutely sure of it, but it doesn't mean that NASA has to give me a ride to the space station.
> My opinion does not change the fact that I am not an astronaut. Being an astronaut is not subjective."



You can quote idiots, congratulations.



> So he hasn't had surgery or no pills?



Obviously not at that age, but thank you for showing everyone your complete ignorance. Did you never once when writing your posts think to yourself "you know, I actually have no idea how any of this works"? Because that's what you should have done and it would've saved everyone a lot of time.



> Just a boy dressing as a girl?



Just a girl born with male genitalia, yes.



> Then why should he be going to the girls bathroom? To make him "feel" better?



No, to grant her the same rights as other girls. Remember, she is legally a girl, regardless of what the bigoted school thinks.



> You're asking everyone to comply with your demands. Your frivolous demands. If he had a disability or injury, I could understand. But this is not lol



What's frivolous about asking them to treat all girls equally? You're acting like anyone else in the school would be affected by this.


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## Gino (Feb 28, 2013)

Just keeps on delivering no matter how many times I read it some of you are actually serious.


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## Syed (Feb 28, 2013)

What if the kid turns out to be a lesbian?


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## Bioness (Feb 28, 2013)

So many people to rep and neg, and neg again, but only so many times a day....

Also for those interested, which should give you a very neutral insight on how one identifies as a transsexual, go here.





Syed said:


> What if the kid turns out to be a lesbian?



Read the above link.



> Being transsexual doesn't mean you have be "gay/straight". Gender and sexuality are two different parts of one's identity. Sexual orentation is who you like and gender identity is what/who you are as a person. It's not "rare" or "irrational" to be a gay trans-person. There are many trans wo/men who are gay, bisexual, pansexual, or asexual. It actually wouldn't make any sense for all transsexuals to be in a heterosexual relationship while cis-gender people can be straight, gay, bisexual and more. Gay men and women are still cis-gender people just because they see themselves as what gender they were assigned as at birth. When people call heterosexual transsexuals "gay people", it sounds more like they are saying being transsexual is a way of continuing the "ideal and hetronormative persona", like it's "fake" or a "trick" to be part of the "average" group. It isn't about looking attractive or "normal" for others to see, it's about one's happiness and freedom.



Basically it is very possible for her to later be a lesbian, however it has nothing to do with being transgender.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 28, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Is anyone else a little disturbed at the fact that you can have a 9-year-old kid with male genitalia identified on a _US Passport_ just because you say he "thinks" he's a girl? I thought US passports were at least supposed to have some inkling of truth on them.
> 
> Either that's a lie or this country is significantly more pathetic than I thought it was.
> 
> When it's time to renew mine I'm going to see if they can say I was born in 1898 on it! I can get paperwork from a hack psych saying I have a mental disorder and need it to say that!


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## Doge (Feb 28, 2013)

That seems close minded...what's wrong with being a feminine boy?  Nothing wrong with a prince wearing a dress.

This reminds me of the "gender neutral" kid from a while ago.  Unless the kid has a vagina now, he's still considered male.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 28, 2013)

Daxter said:


> They're related most of the time but not bound, their position not fixed as their body might be. They can and do work independently.
> 
> Do you think all intersexed persons (and there are millions) are gender-ambiguous? No. Most have a recognisable gender based on what their brain tells them, regardless of their ambiguous sexual organs. You've met several average dudes and nice looking girls, and without being aware of it interact with them based on how they present themselves to you - as a girl or a guy. You never once asked them to drop their pants first, did you? But if you could (legally), and they complied for some reason, you might have been surprised.
> 
> ...



[YOUTUBE]ZKKO1pyP2lc[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]RwHK2u-9F5U[/YOUTUBE]



DremolitoX said:


> Damn, you're so cool!



I think you mean narcissistic


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## dummy plug (Feb 28, 2013)

Bioness said:


> Transgenders =/= gay
> 
> But it is your situation, I don't think it is just for attention but if this person still identifies as a male then yes he is a cross dresser, however if this person insisted that they be referred to as a female and has the documentation, hormone therapy, etc to go along with it, then they are a transgender.



well im not really sure about the difference of the two so i will not respond to that but anyway, that was not for you...i just clarified that the guy was not gay, definitely no...he just likes wearing dresses and shit and i posted that in response to Koi No Yokan's post that yes he is indeed not gay but rather a cross-dresser.


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## PureWIN (Mar 1, 2013)

Solution:

One restroom should be filled with only urinals for humans with penises and are capable of standing up to pee.

The other restrooms should have stalls for sitting down for whatever purpose.

Problem solved.


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## NarutoxKakashi (Mar 1, 2013)

I'm fine with it, as long as she doesn't expect to get special treatment and get to use the boys' restroom when the girls' is full.


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## Shinryu (Mar 1, 2013)

transgendered 1st graders


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