# Guy's Hirudora vs Madara's v3 Susano'o



## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 23, 2014)

Quite a few people have been claiming that Guy's Hirudora destroyed Madara's v3 Susano'o, even though it didn't happen on-panel. However, it seems that many more people are claiming the opposite, that Guy's Hirudora did not destroy Madara's Susano'o, for very much the same reason. And now I'm getting pissed off by this argument.

I think it's about time this debate comes to an end. What do you guys think happened?

I'll post my input on the matter later.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 23, 2014)

Hirudora can't breach any stage of Susano'o--it couldn't even blow Kisame's body apart.

What most likely happened was, Madara got hit, flew off the battlefield, and landed somewhere, then deactivated his Susano'o and decided to sit on his ass and just watch everybody else for a while.

It's not out of character for him to do this; when the four Edo Tensei Hokage arrived at the battlefield and Hashirama sent clones to confront Madara, Madara sat down and refused to fight them because he deemed it not worth his time.

And what do we see Madara doing, the very next time he is on-panel after Hirudora? Sitting on his ass, with Susano'o deactivated.


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## Empathy (Jun 23, 2014)

It obviously didn't breach Madara's _Susanoo_. If it did, it's something important the author would clearly have shown or indicated and not withheld; actual damage done to _Susanoo_ like he's shown in the past, some damage to Madara, or at least some remark from any of the characters who witnessed it "(_Wow, I can't believe Gai's attack could breach his/my Susanoo!_)," but nothing. Why would something so inconsistent with the jutsu's previous showing be inexplicably omitted? There's no reason why it wouldn't have been shown. It just sent Madara back and succeeded in it's purpose of stopping Madara from impaling them. Instead of rushing back toward Gai and the Hachibi when the air blast pushed his attack backward, Madara did the more in-character thing and sat down because he knew the Juubi was seconds from revival and their plight was hopeless — befitting of his well-established nonchalance. 

If Gai did succeed in destroying Madara's _Susanoo_, but somehow didn't do any residual damage to him, why would Gai and Bee do nothing when they could've attacked a temporarily defenseless Madara? Madara is a character so petty he refused to reactivate his perfect _Susanoo_ when it dispersed against his will. Why would people favor Gai and Bee acting extremely out-of-character to not attack Madara while his defenses are down, instead of Madara behaving perfectly in-character about not being in a hurry to attack characters vastly weaker than him? _Hirudora_ is an attack that failed to kill a durable character like Kisame when he couldn't regenerate. 

The counterargument for this is that Aoba told Gai to capture Kisame for interrogation if it could be helped, so Gai somehow held back his attack. Not only would this give us a completely ambiguous grasp of the jutsu's extent (it clearly wasn't shown to bust _Susanoo_), Aoba's statement is directly contradicted by Gai himself, when he tells Kisame his technique is a one-shot absolute kill just before firing it at him, which is supported in most translations. Aoba's suggestion of capturing Akatsuki members alive for invaluable interrogation purposes is something that's parroted by Konohagakure shinobi all the time — and then is blatantly disregarded. Team Asuma are advised to capture Hidan and Kakuzu if they can, yet Izumo and Kotetsu's first actions are to impale Hidan directly in vital organs. Sasuke only intended to uncover Itachi's location from Deidara and Tobi, but he immediately tried to chop Tobi right in half and blow Deidara to smithereens with his own landmines. 

And those aren't the only examples; it's something that has been said for most Akatsuki at some point. "_Wanted dead or alive,_" just comes with the territory of being an international criminal. Gai was definitely trying to kill Kisame up until he was standing over a incapacitated Kisame. It's unclear if _Daikodan_ mitigated the strength of the attack, or if being underwater would strengthen the explosion's effect like common physics would support. Nevertheless, an attack that dwarfed an entire island that bijuus fight on in a small compartment of it, is not a technique ever used when your intention is to keep your target in one piece. _Hirudora_ is a titanic, area-of-effect explosion on a widespread scale that is not intended to be a potent or focused technique such as _Raikiri_ or _Ippon Nukite_ — befitting of a technique of such a scale that is also composed of fast, compressed air.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 23, 2014)

Wait, so people are arguing Madara decided to sit on his ass and chill out, watching the battle because it's 'in-character' for him to do so...

... yet why in the very next chapter, does Madara state that he had 'every intention of capturing Eight-Tails and Nine-Tails before the Ten-Tails revived'?


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## Veracity (Jun 23, 2014)

The whole argument that AT did so much damage to Madara that he was incapacitated for an entire chapter is Completely illogical. Madara and his V3 Sussano were obliterated by his meteor and his body reformed in one panel. Is someone suggesting that AT could destroy Sussano and Madara and leave him unable to move for an entire chapter ? 

Even if you want to believe that Madara's Sussano was destroyed by AT, the whole " Madara was sitting around logic", shouldn't be used at all.


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## LostSelf (Jun 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Wait, so people are arguing Madara decided to sit on his ass and chill out, watching the battle because it's 'in-character' for him to do so...
> 
> ... yet why in the very next chapter, does Madara state that he had 'every intention of capturing Eight-Tails and Nine-Tails before the Ten-Tails revived'?



Actually, i don''t claim for sure that Gai breached Madara's Susano'o, but this is a good point. Madara is not somebody that sits there, the man loves war as he stated multiple times.

Aside for that, the Mokuton binding Hachibi and Gai lost all it's power right after Hirudora exploded.

I think by those two reasons it's possible. Even more considering that Hirudora could've been retconned just like 7th Gated Gai's speed was. That was from being slower than V2 Ei, to surprise and pressure Juudara, wich was reacting to Hiraishin pretty well.

So i wouldn't take it for granted that Gai destroyed it, but, i wouldn't claim otherwise either.

Edit: The entire chapter lasted mere seconds, and if i am not mistaken, Madara appeared without Susano'o a bit after the explosion of Hirudora disappeared. So it's a huge indicator that Gai breached it and Kishi retconned the jutsu just like he did a lot of times in the war.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2014)

This is the Madara that sent a wood dragon to solo Naruto and Guy, and sat on his doing absolutely nothing else.  So yeah, it's perfect in character for him to do that.

The Juubi was about to revive and end the world, making the whole thing meaningless, so Madara didn't feel any pressing need to rejoin the battle.

"I was holding back."

Then every background panel that shows the Madara half of the fight is just him letting the wood dragon solo Naruto and Bee and Guy while he does absolutely nothing.  The next time we see him, it's Madara saying, "Let's enjoy ourselves."  He may have had every intention, but that doesn't mean he had to really try or hurry to win.


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## Bonly (Jun 23, 2014)

While we can't say for sure, I tend to sit on the side that Gai didn't bust it. I think it just sent Madara flying and did some damage to Susanoo but didn't bust. As we know Madara is the kind of character that would just sit on his ass and relax rather so it's not anything new for him to do such after Gai's attack when he knew the Juubi's time was almost done


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The whole argument that AT did so much damage to Madara that he was incapacitated for an entire chapter is Completely illogical. Madara and his V3 Sussano were obliterated by his meteor and his body reformed in one panel. Is someone suggesting that AT could destroy Sussano and Madara and leave him unable to move for an entire chapter ?
> 
> Even if you want to believe that Madara's Sussano was destroyed by AT, the whole " Madara was sitting around logic", shouldn't be used at all.



Really?


*Spoiler*: __ 















He's tied with Tsunade for "Most Panels Spent Sitting."


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## LostSelf (Jun 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Oh boy, that killed me .


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## Empathy (Jun 23, 2014)

Madara wasn't a warmonger until he revived himself and could feel the blood-rush of battle.


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## Veracity (Jun 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Oh shit. Well good for me cause I don't think Gais AT busted shit tbh. And there's no evidence at all.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> This is the Madara that sent a wood dragon to solo Naruto and Guy, and sat on his doing absolutely nothing else.  So yeah, it's perfect in character for him to do that.
> 
> The Juubi was about to revive and end the world, making the whole thing meaningless, so Madara didn't feel any pressing need to rejoin the battle.
> 
> ...



You keep saying Madara sent in his Wood Dragon like it's some cheap, casual move that's third-rate by the guy's standards, but in reality, it was perfectly capable of completely restraining Naruto, Bee and Guy all at once. So Madara 'sitting on his ass' while the Wood Dragon did all the work doesn't indicate that he's naturally lazy as you imply, but that he simply believed it was enough to win the fight.

And you know what? It *was*, until Naruto used his full speed to break through.



> The Juubi was about to revive and end the world, making the whole thing meaningless, so Madara didn't feel any pressing need to rejoin the battle.



Madara flat-out tells us that his primary goal was to obtain the Nine-Tails and Eight-Tails before the Ten-Tails rejoined; your sentiment contradicts his statement.

Sorry, I'll take what he said at face value.



> *He may have had every intention, but that doesn't mean he had to really try or hurry to win.*



He had every intention, so it's logically not possible for Madara to have been 'sitting on his ass' and briskly watching things proceed as Nikushimi and others in this thread are insinuating.

If he actually was doing as claimed, he would have risen uninjured and continued attempting to defeat Naruto and Bee, whether by Susano'o or Wood Release.

The actual implied scenario was that Madara was barred from combat as a result of being destroyed. Hence the 'loosening' of the Wood Dragon on Eight-Tails.


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## Veracity (Jun 23, 2014)

@TastyMuffin 

If Madara was 100% trying to capture the Jin then please explain why PS never came out. Despite the fact that that's the first jutsu he used against Hashirama himself ?


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 23, 2014)

I never argued that Madara was 100% trying to capture the Jinchuriki, but that the fact that he explicitly stated he had always wanted to do so from the beginning, really does imply that Gai destroyed his Susano'o and himself

But if we're going to discuss other tangents, there are multiple possibilities: a) Madara was afraid of possibly killing Naruto and Bee due to the sheer power of Perfect Susano'o, or b) he simply believed the Wood Dragon was enough to win, or c) the Wood Dragon is simply a far quicker method of subduing and taking them alive than something that cleaves mountains in two.

And why wouldn't it? Wood Dragon has the unique trait of Wood Release that makes it inherently binding to Tailed Beasts, not to mention it absorbs chakra - an ability that would be incredibly useful against Naruto's cloak (as demonstrated). These are benefits Perfect Susano'o lacks.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Wait, so people are arguing Madara decided to sit on his ass and chill out, watching the battle because it's 'in-character' for him to do so...
> 
> ... yet why in the very next chapter, does Madara state that he had 'every intention of capturing Eight-Tails and Nine-Tails before the Ten-Tails revived'?



There's no contradiction; Madara did want to capture them, but he was in no hurry to do it.

Just him being full of himself and stupid, as usual.


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## LostSelf (Jun 23, 2014)

Capturing is different than killing. Also, nothing indicates that Kyuubi couldn't confront PS well as Madara said it has comparable power to a Bijuu. The Mokuton was the best thing to deal with Bijuus.

Even then, a panel before being blasted away he was about to kill the clone or Naruto.

Madara was also enjoying every fight like he was having fun with the kages. Not as much rush for battle as he was alive, but he loved it even as an Edo.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 23, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> There's no contradiction; Madara did want to capture them, but he was in no hurry to do it.
> 
> Just him being full of himself and stupid, as usual.



So you're agreeing that Madara _did_ want to capture them before the Ten-Tails awakened, yet you think he is so 'lazy' that he leaves them unbothered despite the revival of the Ten-Tails evidently happening right before his eyes? If Madara was unscratched as you say, he clearly would have noticed the barrier cracking, and would have hurried to rejoin the battle as per his intentions.

Either you're trying to say Madara changes his plans last minute, or doesn't notice his own prized possession clearly about to awaken.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2014)

*TastyMuffin*

If Madara had done anything at all while the wood dragon was out, he would have defeated Naruto and Bee and Guy.  The three of them couldn't even handle the wood dragon, so if Madara actually put himself into the mix, they would have crumbled, like a very dry, no longer tastey muffin.  If Madara really wanted to win right then, he would have done it, instead of waiting for the wood dragon to take it's course.



> He had every intention, so it's logically not possible for Madara to have been 'sitting on his ass' and briskly watching things proceed as Nikushimi and others in this thread are insinuating.



Kakashi had every intention of keeping the bells from the genin.  That doesn't mean he didn't read a book and keep his sharingan covered.

Madara had every intention of killing the 5 Kage.  That doesn't mean he didn't spend most of the fight testing them and holding back and pitting them 5 on 1 against his mokubunshins before he finally decided to end things.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If Madara had done anything at all while the wood dragon was out, he would have defeated Naruto and Bee and Guy. * The three of them couldn't even handle the wood dragon, *so if Madara actually put himself into the mix, they would have crumbled, like a very dry, no longer tastey muffin.  If Madara really wanted to win right then, he would have done it, instead of waiting for the wood dragon to take it's course.



That's exactly the thing,* those three indeed couldn't handle the Wood Dragon*.

Hence why Madara didn't do shit, because he believed he had won. Naruto was on the verge of being fully absorbed, Bee and Guy were completely immobile, so why would Madara have to go any further than he already did?

You're trying to argue that Madara didn't truly want to win because he didn't go all out - yet we clearly see that *he didn't think he needed t*o. From the looks of it, Madara was already the victor. To use additional force would have been pointless. That doesn't mean Madara didn't want to win.



> Kakashi had every intention of keeping the bells from the genin.  That doesn't mean he didn't read a book and keep his sharingan covered.
> 
> Madara had every intention of killing the 5 Kage.  That doesn't mean he didn't spend most of the fight testing them and holding back and pitting them 5 on 1 against his mokubunshins before he finally decided to end things.



You're not getting me.

Look, we both are of the consensus that Madara, in the end, wanted Naruto and Bee captured before the Ten-Tails awoke, yes? That's not up for debate, he tell that directly to us.

Madara doesn't need to go 'all-out', for his intentions to be what he stated. Whether it be, testing through Wood Release, Susano'o, small-scale techniques, Madara's end goal was to have the Nine/Eight-Tails under his control before his pet project revived. He tried to milk it as much as possible, as we saw, yes.

Yet, when it was witnessed that the Ten-Tails' barrier was already cracking, are you actually serious to suggest that Madara wouldn't have attempted to re-enter the battle? You and the others keep saying Madara was sitting on his ass without a fuck given, but to claim so would mean Madara would *completely contradict* what he stated were his goals not a chapter later. 

Actively letting the Ten-Tails revive, as you say happened, without the remaining two Tailed Beasts in his hands would mean he never really wanted them anyways. Do you actually believe Madara, sitting unharmed, watched the Ten-Tails unravel and said to himself, 'Wow, it's too late, might as well sit here and do nothing!'

Yet in the next chapter, essentially claim: 'I really, really wanted the Nine/Eight-Tails'.?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2014)

> Do you actually believe Madara, sitting unharmed, watched the Ten-Tails unravel and said to himself, 'Wow, it's too late, might as well sit here and do nothing!'



That would seem to be what he did.  Or he got interested in seeing the Kakashi and Obito thing and lost track of time.  I don't know why he said he won't fight a clone at all because it's boring, and then we get a panel of him impaling Hashirama's clone saying, "Yeah, this was boring, I'm not going to fight clones anymore."  

Read the rest of the page.

"Madara, you just wanted to play with our new toy, right?  That's why you intentionally-"


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## Veracity (Jun 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I never argued that Madara was 100% trying to capture the Jinchuriki, but that the fact that he explicitly stated he had always wanted to do so from the beginning, really does imply that Gai destroyed his Susano'o and himself
> 
> But if we're going to discuss other tangents, there are multiple possibilities: a) Madara was afraid of possibly killing Naruto and Bee due to the sheer power of Perfect Susano'o, or b) he simply believed the Wood Dragon was enough to win, or c) the Wood Dragon is simply a far quicker method of subduing and taking them alive than something that cleaves mountains in two.
> 
> And why wouldn't it? Wood Dragon has the unique trait of Wood Release that makes it inherently binding to Tailed Beasts, not to mention it absorbs chakra - an ability that would be incredibly useful against Naruto's cloak (as demonstrated). These are benefits Perfect Susano'o lacks.



Madara can say anything he once honesty, but if we have on panel feats of him not really trying at all then that's basically what happened. Madara used a combination of Ribcage Sussano to Lvl 3 sussano, and Completely neglected to use V4 Sussano or PS. Not only this but he used a single Moukton Justu and spent most of his time camping in lower levels of Sussano and lecturing practically. Does that look like Madara was trying at all tbh? If Naruto claimed he was trying his hardest yet didn't use Bjuii mode would you actually believe that ? I mean I know you are suppose to take character dialogue into consideration, but this is just blatantly obvious.

That doesn't imply anything at all. Kishi doesn't need to "imply " Sussano being busted when he could have easily shown such in panel. Please explain why he would show Susanno being moved away but not show it being busted ? Not only this, but the argument that AT incapacitated is false also. At doesn't incapacitate shit. Kisame could move nigh causally after one exploding on his eyebrows practically. Madara and his V3 Sussano and were obliterated by his meteor yet he could regenerate in one panel. I find it hard to believe AT dealt so much damage that it incapacitated Madara for an entire chapter rather he didn't care about arriving to the battle field.

There's also the problem with the massive power jump of AT. AT and a direct 7th gated punch could only knock Kisame out for a split moment. He woke up minutes later and shattered magical Moukton capable of restricting Bjuii quite casually. So AT goes from not being able to severely injure Kisame to destroying a V3 Sussano and destroying Madara who also has he durabilty to tank V1 Ay strikes? That's a massive power gap. 

A) Obito just has his Bjuii fire off island vaporizing Bjuii Damas at Naruto and bee and didn't think twice about it at all. I doubt that Madara thinks his Perfect Sussano is capable of completely destroying a Bjuii ; atleast when he has complete control over it.

B) I doubt Madara thought the wood dragon was Completley enough to win. But if his intention was really to capture the Bjuii then he would have used PS to also attack them. Did you notice that Madara attacked Naruto after he escaped wood dragon and still only used low level Sussano swords ? Also notice how the entire first half of the battle was Madara using laughable Sussano practically.

C) Madara watched with his two eyes as Naruto dashed through his wood dragon and immediately attacked him with his pussy level Sussano. It is highly evident that he wasn't even trying his hardest. If he found it absolutely necessary to capture the Bjuii he would have PS raped them. And PS only vaporizes mountains when Madara wants it to. He could have merely used his arms, or attempted to rather stab the Bjuii  keeping them alive. There is a multitude of ways he could have upped his game without killing them. They are perfect Jin's after all.

Or Madara could have used Wood dragon in conjunction with PS, but I guess that's just me.


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## Sferr (Jun 24, 2014)

1) Here Madara says he wants to enjoy himself
2) Here Madara says he will clear the battlefield
3) Then he gets blown away by Hirudora
4) Then, suddenly, the wooden dragon gets loose and is destroyed by Hachibi
5) Madara is nowhere to be seen and the barrier with Juubi starts to crack
6) At the end of the chapter Madara is shown again, much dirtier than he was before.
7)  Then Madara says that he tried to capture Kyuubi and Hachibi before Juubi's revival but failed.

So, all evidence points to Gai destroying Susanoo and Madara with Hirudora. The one point against Gai destroying Susanoo is that it just doesn't feel right that Gai could do it.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 24, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> ]not onlly that,, but the fact that the mokuton based attack was taken out and completely weakened after guy used  AT on madara proves the notion that guys AT destroyed Madaras V3 and he was slightly damaged to an extent where his mokuton jutsu was weakened,,, due to the onslaught of guys attack,,,,, furthermore seeing how AT ate V3 Susanoo like a cookie, is why i think V3 was destroyed
> Although the manga didnt state it literally,, but through these scans it seems that AT very likely destroyed V3 Susanoo



I would agree with this for the most part.

I have always compared this event to the Sasuke Vs Itachi fight when Sasuke used Kirin. Kirin was enough to knock Itachi down and make him release Susanno. HOWEVER Itachi/Madara could reform Susanoo at anytime afterwards


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2014)

Another thing i would like to point out is that Madara had his fan when he was attacking Naruto. When he appears again, his fan is nowhere to bee seen until he grabs it to move to the head of the Juubi.

And i would find very weird to say that he was unfaced, dropped the fan because_ fuck you fan_, to sit there watching in amazement (when the chapter happened pretty fast, enough for him to be still surrounded by dust clouds at the end of it) and then just grab it again because _i am sorry fan, lets try it again_.

Dunno, just saying.


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## Jad (Jun 24, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Another thing i would like to point out is that Madara had his fan when he was attacking Naruto. When he appears again, his fan is nowhere to bee seen until he grabs it to move to the head of the Juubi.
> 
> And i would find very weird to say that he was unfaced, dropped the fan because_ fuck you fan_, to sit there watching in amazement (when the chapter happened pretty fast, enough for him to be still surrounded by dust clouds at the end of it) and then just grab it again because _i am sorry fan, lets try it again_.
> 
> Dunno, just saying.



Never heard anyone bring that up!~


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 24, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Actively letting the Ten-Tails revive, as you say happened, without the remaining two Tailed Beasts in his hands would mean he never really wanted them anyways. Do you actually believe Madara, sitting unharmed, watched the Ten-Tails unravel and said to himself, 'Wow, it's too late, might as well sit here and do nothing!'



Bingo. That chapter took place during a rather short space of time, and by the time Hirudora settled, it was absolutely too late to capture the two Bijuu in time given their success in avoiding being captured until that point. Hence why his line was that they were "persistent". 


Nikushimi said:


> Hirudora can't breach any stage of Susano'o--it couldn't even blow Kisame's body apart.
> 
> What most likely happened was, Madara got hit, flew off the battlefield, and landed somewhere, then deactivated his Susano'o and decided to sit on his ass and just watch everybody else for a while.
> 
> ...



Also it's worth noting that he sat there and just let Lee kick right through him, even when the equally fast FRS just slipped through Obito. Madara and Obito's plan practically seemed to depend on absorbing some extra of Gyuki and Kurama's chakras, which is why Obito knew before the Juubi was even revealed that the Mazo would be fine and why Kakashi said they were tricked. With Madara and Obito being blocked from just taking the Bijuu, they simply let shit happen. I mean, clearly, the level of Bijuudama that Gyuki and Kurama used should have done some damage to the Mazo but it didn't. Madara's plan was to take the Bijuu, but that was forestalled just long enough that it became pointless and he simply allowed the Juubi to get extra Bijuu chakra the other way.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 24, 2014)

Since so many of you guys are claiming that Madara tanked Guy's Hirudora without any issues and just decided to stop fighting just like that - can you guys account for this?  Why would Madara's Mokuton suddenly weaken in strength if he wasn't damaged or defeated in any way? I thought the only time techniques run out on power like that is when their user has been defeated or incapacitated in any way? Like how Zabuza's Kirigakure no Jutsu vanished after Kakashi took him down? Like how Kushina and Minato's chakra barrier disappeared after they died? Or like how 'Kisame''s Suiton: Bakusui Shoha lake disappeared after he died?

Also, you guys do realize Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame right? Aoba outright told him to bring Kisame back alive. Just because he survived a Hirudora that had no killing intent behind it, doesn't mean Susano'o will survive a Hirudora with killing intent behind it. In case you guys haven't noticed, it's perfectly normal for a shinobi to tone down the power of his or her attack considerably when trying to capture someone alive, as opposed to killing them. 

We've seen Killer Bee survive Sasuke's Chidori when the latter wasn't trying to kill him, even though this is the same Chidori that injured his lightning-cloaked elder brother. We've seen the fodder shinobi assigned to prevent Naruto from leaving the Turtle Island survive a direct charge from him in Sennin Mode, when Naruto has enough strength to restrain gigantic summons that tear up the ground by charging and plow through buildings as if they're made of sandpaper, and toss said summons into the stratosphere in this mode.

We've even seen a non-shinobi fodder survive Jiraiya's Rasengan when the latter wasn't trying to kill him, in spite of the guy likely not even knowing something as simple as how to use chakra to strengthen the durability of his body and in spite of the fact that Pre-Skip Naruto's Rasengan nearly killed Kabuto by itself - in spite of Kabuto not only being a ninja and thus far more durable than a non-shinobi fodder for that alone, but even having exceptional durability for a ninja too, what with him being able to take Tsunade's watered down blows and having Inyu Shometsu to heal damage done to his body.

And it's not as if Kisame isn't an incredibly durable individual anyway. Kisame was able to go head-to-head with someone as physically powerful as Killer Bee, and didn't even so much as wince when taking a direct, full-power headbutt from him. By the way, this is the same Killer Bee that overpowered his elder brother, the Fourth Raikage, in a contest of strength - the same Raikage that destroyed a Susano'o bone with his raw strength - without any chakra enhancement whatsoever.

I don't know why people are underestimating the damage that Hirudora had done to Kisame. It clearly left him down on the ground and clearly unable to fight any longer. He was barely able to move and a simple, non-killing intent punch from Guy knocked him out cold anyway. It's not as if Kisame had tanked the attack or anything, and even if he did, that would say far more for his durability than it would against the killing power of Guy's Hirudora.


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## ueharakk (Jun 24, 2014)

*still smoke around madara, and he looks visually scuffed from the attack*
madara has every reason to get back in the action rather than risk bee and naruto blowing up GM before it turns into the juubi.

And then by what feats exactly does susanoo not get blown up by AT?  madara's susanoo was bit by AT, kisame wasn't.  The AT used on kisame had expanded enough to hit all the sharks, the one used on madara was used solely to attack him.  We've already seen that the smaller AT's explosion is, the more concentrated it is when Kakashi, Minato, lee and gaara stood in the shockwave and weren't even harmed.  

I find it hard to believe that a direct hit from AT wouldn't destroy a half-V3 susanoo when tail slaps from 8 bijuus can completely destroy a senjutsu V3 with legs, and do enough damage to rip SM Madara's arm off.


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## Veracity (Jun 24, 2014)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Since so many of you guys are claiming that Madara tanked Guy's Hirudora without any issues and just decided to stop fighting just like that - can you guys account for this?  Why would Madara's Mokuton suddenly weaken in strength if he wasn't damaged or defeated in any way? I thought the only time techniques run out on power like that is when their user has been defeated or incapacitated in any way? Like how Zabuza's Kirigakure no Jutsu vanished after Kakashi took him down? Like how Kushina and Minato's chakra barrier disappeared after they died? Or like how 'Kisame''s Suiton: Bakusui Shoha lake disappeared after he died?
> 
> Also, you guys do realize Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame right? Aoba outright told him to bring Kisame back alive. Just because he survived a Hirudora that had no killing intent behind it, doesn't mean Susano'o will survive a Hirudora with killing intent behind it. In case you guys haven't noticed, it's perfectly normal for a shinobi to tone down the power of his or her attack considerably when trying to capture someone alive, as opposed to killing them.
> 
> ...



@Uzumaki Nagato regarding Kisames durabilty.

Kisame is durable indeed but not even close enough to the point where you could warrant him surviving a point blank AT entirely based on his Durability.  Let's see, in every battle bar his very last, Kisame has had a magical sword that automatically and nearly instantly heals his body. With this being said, most of the damage Kisame has taken is usually instantly healed basically increasing his Durability in a way. 

Okay now let's figure out how truly durable Kisame is. V1 Bee and V1 Ay should more or less be about equal in strength if you look at the fact that Ay does this to Sussano ribs: this? 
While bee can't even fully one shot Sasukes body and we all know Ribcage Sussano> Sasukes body: this? 
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and claim that bee is an on an entirely different tier regarding physical strength and is far above Ay( even though it actually isn't true. Lariat vs Lariat was bullshittt and was purely based on  Ay's underestimation of bee. Which makes sense he considering he was literally manhandling bee the rest of the battle). 

Okay so let's continue. Let's say that V2 bee is double the strength of V2 Ay. We see V1 Ay land a direct hit on Madara and it doesn't even scratch his body: this? 
So at most V2 bee would be able to punch a fist sized hole through Madara. This is also evident through his lariat making direct contact with Nagato and not snapping him like a twig: this? 
True he activated preta path and absorbed most of the damage, but notice how he activated preta path after he was directly hit , meaning he still took a good portion of the lariat and didn't snap in half.

Anyway, we see Tsuande obliterating Madara with a single hit putting her striking power far above Ay or V2 bee considering V1 ay couldn't even scratch Madara: this? . 
And even Tsuande herself had trouble breaching ribcage Sussano. This means that Kisames Durabilty is at or below Ribcage Sussano level which is FAR from V3 Sussano level.

We also have other panels of Kisame being hurt by pretty weak attacks. Like a flash shunshin kick from Naruto making him cough up blood: this? 
True he absorbed bees chakra and later became more durable. But if he can be hurt be a kick from KCM Naruto then his durabilty isn't even close to a V3 Sussano.

Okay now let's get to this tone down part.

You realize that it is practically impossible for Gai to tone down a taijustu technique that is produced from how fast he punches ? Not only this but both the AT's he used were the exact same size: this? 
this? 
Possibly even smaller the second time. So please do explain Gai could produce an AT the same size as the one used against Madara but somehow tone it down despite the Justu being produced from his arm speed ?

Let me proceed. True that Gai was sent to capture Kisame and not kill him, but do you understand that Shinobi can ignore orders, still try their absolute hardest during a battle, or accidentally kill an opponent ? 

Asuma and Co were sent to capture Hidan and Kakuzu yet this was the outcome at the start of the battle : this? 

Obito had all intention of capturing Naruto and bee yet a BjuiiDama of this size was causally fired at Naruto and Obito didn't even think twice about it: this? 

Thunder brought up some phenomenal examples actually.

Also AT didn't really do any damage to Kisame. He wasn't necessarily unable to move. He was left in this position where he forcibly moved himself: this? 

He then took a full powered 7th gated punch to the ribs and could do this about 10 minute after : this?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 24, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Another thing i would like to point out is that Madara had his fan when he was attacking Naruto. When he appears again, his fan is nowhere to bee seen until he grabs it to move to the head of the Juubi.
> 
> And i would find very weird to say that he was unfaced, dropped the fan because_ fuck you fan_, to sit there watching in amazement (when the chapter happened pretty fast, enough for him to be still surrounded by dust clouds at the end of it) and then just grab it again because _i am sorry fan, lets try it again_.
> 
> Dunno, just saying.



Congrats on Jad reps.

I would probably set down my war fan when I take a breather in casual mode.  If I was fighting with a palm leaf, then maybe I'd fan myself, but edo's don't really feel heat.  



This does not look like the face of a man who just got oneshotted.  For reference, this is how Madara looks when he gets hit with or faces something that can hurt him.


*Spoiler*: __ 











Versus 






Or



Which one of these is the face of a battle maniac who just found an opponent that can explode him and his advanced defence in an instant?


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## IchLiebe (Jun 24, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Congrats on Jad reps.
> 
> I would probably set down my war fan when I take a breather in casual mode.  If I was fighting with a palm leaf, then maybe I'd fan myself, but edo's don't really feel heat.
> 
> Which one of these is the face of a battle maniac who just found an opponent that can explode him and his advanced defence in an instant?



Living vs edo don't seem fair. How about when he had half his body blown away in edo form and kept a straight face the whole time. This is the 7th gate people. There is no shame in it as we've seen what 8th gate is capable of. The gates are downright vicious.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2014)

I gotta agree with the majority here. I don't think Hirudora destroyed Madara's Susano'O. At least, there is no evidence that it did.


----------



## Veracity (Jun 24, 2014)

I don't understand this Madara looked scuffed logic lol. Madara didn't look any different then he did before. 

Can someone also explain to me how AT has rhe ability to incapacitate Madara for an entire chapter when he has on panel feats of being obliterated and regenerating in one panel ?


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Congrats on Jad reps.
> 
> I would probably set down my war fan when I take a breather in casual mode.  If I was fighting with a palm leaf, then maybe I'd fan myself, but edo's don't really feel heat.
> 
> ...



But i never said Madara was oneshotted . Just that it's weird that he dropped his fan just to grab it again considering how fast everything happened in this chapter. On top of all the things mentioned above by the guys supporting the theory of Hirudora busting Susano'o.

Also, living Madara can feel the rush and heat for battle. Edo Madara doesn't and he doesn't feel eager for more.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I gotta agree with the majority here. I don't think Hirudora destroyed Madara's Susano'O. At least, there is no evidence that it did.





Let's look at the evidence.

1. Madara had his fan.
2. Madara had a wood dragon around the bijuu.
3. Madara wanted to "clean the battlefield"
4. Madara activated Susanoo as he was saying the above.

Gai uses Hirudora.

1. Madara is out the whole chapter.
2. Madara's dragon loosened up aka deactivated.
3. Madara had no fan.
4. Madara said,"Oh well" while sitting in dust.
5. Said in the next chapter he wanted to capture the bijuu before the juubi was revived.

The evidence he didn't bust it

1. It doesn't make sense (coming from Uchiha fans who think susanoo is fucking invincible and Madara himself even more so.)
2. Madara always chills as he did with Hashirama (although he didn't want to fight a wood clone and specifically said he wanted to capture Naruto and Bee aka THE COMPLETE FUCKING OPPOSITE)
3. Madara's face didn't show any signs of it doing anything like when he was fighting 8th gate Gai.(Despite being injured several times as an edo and never showing what he did as Juubi Jin which is enjoyment such as the post above yours and here)


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I don't understand this Madara looked scuffed logic lol. Madara didn't look any different then he did before.
> 
> Can someone also explain to me how AT has rhe ability to incapacitate Madara for an entire chapter when he has on panel feats of being obliterated and regenerating in one panel ?



More/less panels doesn't mean time. In this chapter it's clear that everything happened fast, even thought it was a chapter because by the time the explosion wore off, the chapter was ending, and what happened there were just a few words and actions.

Regenerating in one panel doesn't mean it did fast necessarily.

And do you seriously don't see Madara scuffed? Because he look at least, with dirt on his body and clothes.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 24, 2014)

To be honest the wood release binding weakening all of a sudden and madara's absence long after that is all the proof i need to say hirudora broke susanoo and affected madara. His attitude/traits can't really substitute for that kind of opposing evidence imo.


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## Veracity (Jun 25, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> More/less panels doesn't mean time. In this chapter it's clear that everything happened fast, even thought it was a chapter because by the time the explosion wore off, the chapter was ending, and what happened there were just a few words and actions.
> 
> Regenerating in one panel doesn't mean it did fast necessarily.
> 
> And do you seriously don't see Madara scuffed? Because he look at least, with dirt on his body and clothes.



What? AT's explosion ends at the very end of chapter 608. Madara doesn't show up to the vary last panel of 609. Obito Naruto and Kakashi were able to outright fight for a good while , and Naruto/bee were able to fire off a barrage of TBB's at the barrier and the Juubi was able to fully fully come out before the chapter ended. True it's a fast chapter, but you can't deny the fact that AT's explosion was finished before the next chapter even started, meaning.

Madara was able to heal his entire body being shattered in one panel: *than his KCM clone counterpart.*

True it seems like more time then the panels in 609, but you can't deny that it was very short considering every single person is still succumbing to the damage taken. I don't even know why we are arguing this. I can find several other examples of Edo's healing extremely fast. Face it man, there is no possible way a  fast explosion like AT left Madara incapacitated for an entire fighting sequence. 

What? Madara looks like that all the time. They are on a battlefield where mountains are vaporized and characters move at hypersonic speeds. Madara's clothes aren't going to look normal lol.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 25, 2014)

His Susano was destroyed.

It's entirely out of character for Madara to sit on his ass and stop fighting if his Susano wasn't even destroyed, he would have simply shunshin'd back and entered the fight again. His Susano was no longer activated- why? What reason would he have for deactivating it? Moreover, he had his Rinnegan in Obito's eye to protect, aside from the fact that he needed Obito alive in order to be revived. If there are ninja capable of countering his V3 and Mokuton, why the fuck would he sit back and let Obito get teamed by them? His entire plan is based on Obito's preservation and the preservation of the eye in his left socket... 

Everything points to him rejoining the battle immediately- so there is no real discussion in why he didn't. He got trashed by Gai's Afternoon Tiger and needed time to recover, there is absolutely no other explanation. 

Edo Madara deactivating a Susano that wasn't destroyed and taking a fucking break when a second before he was utilizing Mokuton and V3 Susano with killer intent? LOL complete nonsense


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 25, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What? AT's explosion ends at the very end of chapter 608. Madara doesn't show up to the vary last panel of 609. Obito Naruto and Kakashi were able to outright fight for a good while , and Naruto/bee were able to fire off a barrage of TBB's at the barrier and the Juubi was able to fully fully come out before the chapter ended. True it's a fast chapter, but you can't deny the fact that AT's explosion was finished before the next chapter even started, meaning.


*AT's explosion was still there at the beginning of chapter 609....*

*We see the explosion probably stopped on this page considering the massive amount of smoke behind obito.
*

*tons of smoke still behind obito.*

*still there*

and finally* it's still there* on* these two pages.*

So by the time we see madara back, the smoke from the attack hadn't even cleared.  Compare that to the meteor where madara only recovers after naruto and the kages regroup and it's very possible madara had been out for that duration.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Let's look at the evidence.
> 
> 1. Madara had his fan.
> 2. Madara had a wood dragon around the bijuu.
> ...



Kisame took AT and was fine. You are claiming that same AT busted Susano'O and incapacitated EDO Madara for a good couple of minutes. Makes 0 sense, is all I am saying.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kisame took AT and was fine. You are claiming that same AT busted Susano'O and incapacitated EDO Madara for a good couple of minutes. Makes 0 sense, is all I am saying.



An attack based on air pressure that was used underwater so it was severely weakened. Danzo's wind jutsu damaged v3 Susanoo. To say AT is weaker than that makes 0 sense.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> An attack based on air pressure that was used underwater so it was severely weakened. Danzo's wind jutsu damaged v3 Susanoo. To say AT is weaker than that makes 0 sense.



It shows that Danzo's wind jutsu can do more damage on a smaller area, given it is a concentrated slash type attack.

AT is a blunt attack with huge AOE.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It shows that Danzo's wind jutsu can do more damage on a smaller area, given it is a concentrated slash type attack.
> 
> AT is a blunt attack with huge AOE.



Danzo doing more damage than 7th gated Gai . Have people lost all shame when trying to defend this shit? It's nothing to be afraid of. 7th Gate Gai is one of the strongest characters and the manga and it's not even perfect susanoo.


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## Veracity (Jun 25, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> reread what i typed.  The point isn't 'there's a lot of smoke' the point is that 'the smoke is still there' which means much time hasn't passed since the technique ended since the smoke from the technique hasn't even cleared when we see madara again.
> 
> Is it possible that madara got incapped for one second and have been sitting in the smoke for the entire chapter?  Sure.  Is it possible that the attack blew him up, and he just finished reforming before the panel of him was shown?  Yep.
> 
> ...



Or the smoke stays there for awhile considering an attack that can bust an island just went of an area with a lot of dust ? 
Literally Madara just arriving on the battlefield caused smoke to flow for 15 pages. From here: Link removed
Link removed
Literally multiple conversations were held throughout those pages, and considering these ninja can move @ hypersonic speeds, these conversations probably took ages to them.

The smoke cloud from Gais AT starts here: Link removed
To here: Link removed 
And probably would have lasted longer if it wasn't for  EE adding more dust to it.

When Sasuke went to warp Tobirama which was after Madara raped the Bjuii, after the juubidara vs Minato and co shit, after the Gai vs Madara fight, after the Kabuto interference, after the sages spoke to Naruto and Sasuke, and after Naruto raped Juubimadara and yet there's still dust in the Area: Link removed

We also don't know he exact position Madara was in. He could have been in a crater in the ground( would make sense) and the dust just settled in the area. 
There isn't even a single Edo paper in the area which would make it evident that Madara has just regenerated. Instead there is nothing at all. 

Not only this but you still don't have concrete proof that Madara actually regenerated when the smoke was clearing as opposed to way before it did. I guess I don't either so nobody can 100% prove their part. 

It doesn't matter if the attack was weaker at all. It only matters that both people were Completley obliterated.

Does that mean that some Edo can heal faster then others ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Danzo doing more damage than 7th gated Gai . Have people lost all shame when trying to defend this shit? It's nothing to be afraid of. 7th Gate Gai is one of the strongest characters and the manga and it's not even perfect susanoo.



Broski you don't get it. 
I am not saying that Danzo's fuuton does more than AT overall. It does more damage on a smaller area, like it is for all piercing/slashing attacks vs blunt attacks.

A sword has a thinner and sharper edge than a hammer. A hammer's surface will effect a bigger area than a swords so it may do more damage on bigger surfaces but it doesn't necessarily mean it will be more effective against certain type of targets.

Danzo's Fuuton didn't even bust Susano'o, it shredded a small area of protective coating from Susano'o'Os back. 

I am also not claiming that AT didn't even do damage. I am just saying that it probably didn't bust Susano'o completely. But visually, there is no evidence eitherway.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Broski you don't get it.
> I am not saying that Danzo's fuuton does more than AT overall. It does more damage on a smaller area, like it is for all piercing/slashing attacks vs blunt attacks.
> 
> A sword has a thinner and sharper edge than a hammer. A hammer's surface will effect a bigger area than a swords so it may do more damage on bigger surfaces but it doesn't necessarily mean it will be more effective against certain type of targets.
> ...



A sword won't get through armor better than a nuke. That's fucking stupid. If it was some almighty cutting jutsu like 3rd Raikage then sure. But Danzo...no. AT is so strong full fledged ninja's had to brace for impact and they were MILES away. Again, it's not even perfect susanoo or final stage susanoo. It's perfectly acceptable.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> A sword won't get through armor better than a nuke. That's fucking stupid. If it was some almighty cutting jutsu like 3rd Raikage then sure. But Danzo...no. AT is so strong full fledged ninja's had to brace for impact and they were MILES away. Again, it's not even perfect susanoo or final stage susanoo. It's perfectly acceptable.



Bigger AOE doesn't equate to stronger attack.

Compare Naruto's YRS and Sasuke's chidori sword.

Like YRS has a massive AOE and Sasuke's chidori sword is basically the size of a sword and cuts like a sword and yet it managed to do a better job @ damaging Madara than YRS did. Same thing applies here.

While I agree that blunt and piercing attacks have better impact on Armor(pikes, spears and hammers are more effective than slash type swords on full plate armor), Sasuke's Susano'o didn't exactly have that kind of armor on its back. And blunt attacks are effective on amor mainly because you can break bones of the person inside without actually breaking the armor itself.
But that rule doesn't apply to Susano'o considering it isn't worn like armor and it is impossible to touch the user without breaking through.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 25, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What? AT's explosion ends at the very end of chapter 608. Madara doesn't show up to the vary last panel of 609. Obito Naruto and Kakashi were able to outright fight for a good while , and Naruto/bee were able to fire off a barrage of TBB's at the barrier and the Juubi was able to fully fully come out before the chapter ended. True it's a fast chapter, but you can't deny the fact that AT's explosion was finished before the next chapter even started, meaning.



Hirudora was still in the next chapter. And when Obito looks back it's when the explosion finished, plus, before the TBB barrage, the dust clouds are still there, in place. If we consider that dust clouds have dispersed pretty quick in the past, and that Naruto would not fight slowly against a man that can easly warp and avoid his attacks, then this fight happened pretty fast.



> Madara was able to heal his entire body being shattered in one panel: Link removed



It was not one panel. The meteor crashed here, therefore Madara had all the panels after this to regenerate. And by the time he decides to attack, the dust is not there anymore...



> True it seems like more time then the panels in 609, but you can't deny that it was very short considering every single person is still succumbing to the damage taken. I don't even know why we are arguing this. I can find several other examples of Edo's healing extremely fast. Face it man, there is no possible way a  fast explosion like AT left Madara incapacitated for an entire fighting sequence.



But it's not. When in the HQ they felt the crash it was when Madara began to regenerate. They spoke then we go to the battlefield where everybody is recovering from the blast or the earthquake, people seeing if others are ok, like with the Tsuchikage, etc. Madara didn'r regenerate in one panel. It took his time.



> What? Madara looks like that all the time. They are on a battlefield where mountains are vaporized and characters move at hypersonic speeds. Madara's clothes aren't going to look normal lol.



It's not his clothes only, it's his face. When he is seen before being blasted and before using Susano'o, he looks different.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 25, 2014)

Ps, I would like to point out that Madara wasn't even shown "picking up" his fan. He leapt from where he had been with it in hand. Since as far as we know the fan is not controlled telekinetically, it means it had to have been sitting practically right next to him. 

Also, Madara looks dusty a lot.

with it in hand
with it in hand

(and as for protecting Obito, Madara made basically no effort at that. He seemed to have faith in Obito's ability to survive throughout everything, which is understandable given that Obito had played Madara for sixteen years. Heck, he played around with the Gokage for as long as he did even despite the fact that Black Zetsu clearly notified him where Obito was and what he was doing.) 


IchLiebe said:


> A sword won't get through armor better than a nuke.



Yes, it will in the Naruto world. Bijuudama failed to rip through all of Gyuki's skin, while Obito's giant shruiken and Chidori Eiso cut off tentacles and Obito's stakes pierced right into it.


blackguyinpinksuit said:


> To be honest the wood release binding weakening all of a sudden and madara's absence long after that is all the proof i need to say hirudora broke susanoo and affected madara. His attitude/traits can't really substitute for that kind of opposing evidence imo.



But that's _not_ actuallyl evidence. It's just what happened, which can be explained by one of two hypotheses a) Madara realizing the Juubi's resurrection was going to happen before he could capture the Bijuu and just sitting out or b) Gai's Hirudora taking him out. 


IchLiebe said:


> Living vs edo don't seem fair. How about when he had half his body blown away in edo form and kept a straight face the whole time.



And yet nonetheless he found occasion to praise his opponents. On the other hand, when confronted with Gai again, he didn't even seem to clearly remember him.


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## Veracity (Jun 25, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Hirudora was still in the next chapter. And when Obito looks back it's when the explosion finished, plus, before the TBB barrage, the dust clouds are still there, in place. If we consider that dust clouds have dispersed pretty quick in the past, and that Naruto would not fight slowly against a man that can easly warp and avoid his attacks, then this fight happened pretty fast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just reply to my post above ^ . You basically said everything Ueharakk said. There's really no point in me re typing it all.  Just know there are multiple occasions in the manga where dust floats around for chapters upon chapters. We also don't know Madara's location. He could have been in a crater where the dust escaped slower. 

Anyway as Subtle O said below, there are times when Madara looks scuffed up all the time. He's an Edo who he's nuked over and over again. He is also fighting hypersonic ninja who can vaporize mountains ? 

It doesn't matter anyway as being tossed hundreds of meters in a Sussano would make you look "scuffed " regardless if the Sussano was busted or not. He also deactivated his Sussano when the dust was  moving making him look scuffed regardless also.


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## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2014)

AT broke through no reason to believe it didn't 
Seriously it's ridiculous to think he got pushed back and deactivated it for the lolz 
I say it broke through damaged him but with no further consequence as the juubi just showed up
like some said V3 was already cut by Danzo futon seriously don't see why AT can't break through 
Susanoo at that level isn't some massively impressive defence


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## LostSelf (Jun 26, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Just reply to my post above ^ . You basically said everything Ueharakk said. There's really no point in me re typing it all.  Just know there are multiple occasions in the manga where dust floats around for chapters upon chapters. We also don't know Madara's location. He could have been in a crater where the dust escaped slower.



You are actually right, however, the dust is not the only indication about that, like lot of people posted above (and myself), this chapter happened pretty fast as all the ninjas there are incredibly quick and Madara couldn't have been more than mere seconds sitting there.



> Anyway as Subtle O said below, there are times when Madara looks scuffed up all the time. He's an Edo who he's nuked over and over again. He is also fighting hypersonic ninja who can vaporize mountains ?



But if he was inside Susano'o and nothing bypassed it he shouldn't have been affected, and he looks more scuffed right there. Not all the time actually, when he gets to the battlefield and uses Susano'o to fight, his face looks pretty clean, and if i am not mistaken (I might be), before being blasted by Hirudora he was not showing to be very scuffed.



> It doesn't matter anyway as being tossed hundreds of meters in a Sussano would make you look "scuffed " regardless if the Sussano was busted or not. He also deactivated his Sussano when the dust was  moving making him look scuffed regardless also.



And this is what i find weird. If he was in Susano'o, nothing would've bypassed it and he wouldn't have been scuffed. But why would he deactivate Susano'o? Why would he sit there when the Juubi revived he said he wanted to capture the Jiins before? And admitted they are better than he expected?

Notice i am not affirming anything, but the notion of Gai busting Susano'o is not as crazy as people think it is, especially when the only reason we don't believe Gai did was because Kisame was intact, there is Gai's mission that was to capture him alive, and he did. Therefore nothing says Gai couldn't have punched slower to create the air pressure and not kill him.

This as well is proven on how Kisame was able to match Gai's hand speed while Madara, who started first attacking, couldn't against a Gai that was beaten up.

On top of that, the Hirudora Gai used against Kisame got severely weakened if you look how big the tiger was before clashing with the Shark, yet, in the next panels, the tiger gets so small that it enters inside the shark's mouth and bypasses it, just look at the last panel when Kishi draws exactly how the tiger is getting smaller and smaller. Not only shrinking then, but meeting an opposing force of a heavier blast that was the shark.

By the time the attack got to Kisame, it was barely his size. So we just can think how severely weaker was said blast in comparison to the one Madara faced.

Subtle said Madara had his fan near. It might be, but maybe it is just me, but i find very weird that he dropped the fan there just to sit, to grab it again when he went to move. If he was there a lot of time it's logical, but since he wasn't there much time and he wanted to capture the Jiins... This seems unlikely.


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## Veracity (Jun 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> You are actually right, however, the dust is not the only indication about that, like lot of people posted above (and myself), this chapter happened pretty fast as all the ninjas there are incredibly quick and Madara couldn't have been more than mere seconds sitting there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We both know the chapter happened fast but we have evidence that Edo's can heal much faster then that entire chapter and that people like Hashirama can travel miles in really short time frames. Even if Madara was completely obliterated by that AT, the only reason he should have not already arrived at the battlefield is at his own will. There's no debating this.

He look scuffed because he was setting in the all the built up dust in the crater. I also don't understand how he looks scuffed at all. He looks completely normal to me. 

Because Madara is one cocky bastard. You realize that the entire chapter Madara is fighting two Jin's yet doesn't even get close to using PS in any manner. He simply uses ribcage -lvl 3 Sussano and is hardly giving it his all against them. The moment he sees Hashirama he immediately uses PS. Remember that? Which is more of an indication that he was giving it his all? His intent to fight Hashirama or his intent to capture the Bjuii based on his fighting style ? 

Not only this , but considering everyone seems to be using dialogue as a reason as to why Madara would want to capture the Bjuii . I could use it against you actually.

Here Madara admits that he was going easy on the Bjuii: clashing

Claiming that him and Obito needed to take it easy and that fighting Bjuii was enjoyable: clashing

And if that doesn't cut it, then basically directly implied that Madara wasn't even trying against Naruto and bee and wanted to test the Juubi against them: clashing
"That's why you intentionally "...

It's pretty crazy considering the difference between V3 Sussano + V1 Ay tanking Madara and just Kisame. Not only did it it damage something significantly more durable then Kisame but destroyed it. It merely bruised Kisame and busts Sussano ? Wow. 

Just because it's your mission to capture someone doesn't mean you don't:
A) disobey orders 
B) try your hardest
C) kill the target on accident.
Especially when Gai immediately entered the 6th gate and fired off his two strongest techniques off the bat .

Obito had all intention of capturing Naruto and bee yet this was fired at them: clashing

Asuma and co were sent to capture Hidan and Kakuzu yet they intentionally targeted hidans vital organs; clashing

What? I don't understand how Gai could tone down a one shot 7th gated technique that is created from a supersonic speed punch. Especially when both AT's were the same size -_-. How can you punch fast enough to make two AT's the same size yet water one down ? 
: clashing
clashing

Well for one Madara wasn't paying attention to Gai and for two that's an interception feat. Interception feats are basically shit unless Gai has another feat that proves his AT is that fast .

Also it's pretty obvious that kisame and Gais Justu were meant to be a clash... And they fired their jutsu off at the exact same time. It was also at a much farther distance with Kisame then against Madara.

You realize that air current moving through water actually increases it's force? And considering Kisames Justu only absorbed chakra , it was basically just a wall of water to increase AT's force essentially. 

Not only this , but the only reason his AT shrunk was because it decided to travel through the sharks mouth. Considering the shark didn't do anything , the At didn't get weaker randomly ? It probably shrunk, concentrated , condensed, then exploded on Kisames eyebrows.


Subtle also brung up panels of Madara looking "scuffed" up but not actually being injured at all.


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Yes, it will in the Naruto world. Bijuudama failed to rip through all of Gyuki's skin, while Obito's giant shruiken and Chidori Eiso cut off tentacles and Obito's stakes pierced right into it..



One Rashōmon gate (summon by Sakon) withstood Garōga with nothing more than a dent, while Yonbi Naruto's little Bijūdama obliterated Triple Rashōmon in its entirety. 

I don't think nukes were ever inferior at penetrating defenses than swords. I mean, Rasengan did more damage to the water tower than Chidori did.


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## LostSelf (Jun 26, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> We both know the chapter happened fast but we have evidence that Edo's can heal much faster then that entire chapter and that people like Hashirama can travel miles in really short time frames. Even if Madara was completely obliterated by that AT, the only reason he should have not already arrived at the battlefield is at his own will. There's no debating this.



At his own will. That says nothing either. 



> He look scuffed because he was setting in the all the built up dust in the crater. I also don't understand how he looks scuffed at all. He looks completely normal to me.



It seems we agree to disagree, because i see him very scuffed there.



> Because Madara is one cocky bastard. You realize that the entire chapter Madara is fighting two Jin's yet doesn't even get close to using PS in any manner. He simply uses ribcage -lvl 3 Sussano and is hardly giving it his all against them. The moment he sees Hashirama he immediately uses PS. Remember that? Which is more of an indication that he was giving it his all? His intent to fight Hashirama or his intent to capture the Bjuii based on his fighting style ?



So, he went all out against Hashirama. So what? That doesn't mean he wasn't trying to capture the Bijuus. Deidara never went all out on Gaara, yet he was trying to take it. Not going all out means nothing other than a lot of arrogance.



> Not only this , but considering everyone seems to be using dialogue as a reason as to why Madara would want to capture the Bjuii . I could use it against you actually.
> 
> Here Madara admits that he was going easy on the Bjuii: [3]
> 
> ...



Again, not going all out =/= trying to accomplish something.



> It's pretty crazy considering the difference between V3 Sussano + V1 Ay tanking Madara and just Kisame. Not only did it it damage something significantly more durable then Kisame but destroyed it. It merely bruised Kisame and busts Sussano ? Wow.



So what i typed was for nothing because you didn't read at all. Are you comparing a Giant Hirudora with the one that hit Kisame? Do you realize that the Hirudora that hit Kisame was as big as the same Kisame and lost potency because a giant water blast was going in the opposite direction?

The Afternoon Tiger clrearly shrinked that much, and Kishi even bothered drawing the pattern of how small was becoming.

There's no comparison so Kisame = Susano'o logic doesn't match.



> Just because it's your mission to capture someone doesn't mean you don't:
> A) disobey orders
> B) try your hardest
> C) kill the target on accident.
> Especially when Gai immediately entered the 6th gate and fired off his two strongest techniques off the bat .



There are some issues with what you are saying. One, Gai has never been shown ignoring orders to disobey it. Two, he accomplished his mission, so he didn't disobey. And three, you are assuming with no base that he did disobey something _that_ important as an order that could save you from a war. 

Gai never fired MP against Kisame, everything he did was to destroy the sharks and locate the stolen scroll.



> Obito had all intention of capturing Naruto and bee yet this was fired at them: [3]



Obito, aside from doing whatever the fuck he wants and is not loyal to any village, had hell realm to revive them just like Nagato was going to do. Or he knew this was not going to kill them.



> Asuma and co were sent to capture Hidan and Kakuzu yet they intentionally targeted hidans vital organs; [3]



This doesn't mean Gai ignored orders as both things are completely different. There was not much to get from Hidan aside from info against Akatsuki. If they were in danger, the best would be killing them both to survive rather than die trying.

Gai's mission was to locate a scroll that was convenient for a _world war_ against Uchiha Madara. The importance of his mission clearly eclipses Asuma's, including that Gai was enough for Kisame. 

Asuma and Shikamaru weren't.



> What? I don't understand how Gai could tone down a one shot 7th gated technique that is created from a supersonic speed punch. Especially when both AT's were the same size -_-. How can you punch fast enough to make two AT's the same size yet water one down ?
> : [3]
> [3]



Maybe Gai can punch faster than the punch he threw against Kisame? 



> Well for one Madara wasn't paying attention to Gai and for two that's an interception feat. Interception feats are basically shit unless Gai has another feat that proves his AT is that fast .
> 
> Also it's pretty obvious that kisame and Gais Justu were meant to be a clash... And they fired their jutsu off at the exact same time. It was also at a much farther distance with Kisame then against Madara.



Madara could've seen the huge ass tiger approaching him just like he saw Ei trying to blindside him.

Kisame was closer to Gai... Interception feats doesn't count when somebody appears out of nowhere doing an incredibly fast maneuver when said opponent is not as fast.

Interception feats counts when you know exactly when both parties began to move and when it's very logical. And that Gai's striking speed eclipses Madara's is very logical, and it covers the requisites to be a valid interception feat and not a bullshit.



> You realize that air current moving through water actually increases it's force? And considering Kisames Justu only absorbed chakra , it was basically just a wall of water to increase AT's force essentially.



Underwater attacksi ncreases the force. Not a giant and heavier blast of water going in the opposite direction of a shapped air tiger, this is different.


> Not only this , but the only reason his AT shrunk was because it decided to travel through the sharks mouth. Considering the shark didn't do anything , the At didn't get weaker randomly ? It probably shrunk, concentrated , condensed, then exploded on Kisames eyebrows.



Wait, what? The non sentient tiger decided to travel through the shark's mouth? Or Gai can control the tiger where he throws it? Of course not. Daikodan weakened the blast a lot because once they both fired their attacks, they lost complete control over the technique. 



> Subtle also brung up panels of Madara looking "scuffed" up but not actually being injured at all.




Gotta try to see that.


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## Veracity (Jun 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> At his own will. That says nothing either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What? This clearly tells us that if Madara truly wanted to arrive at the battlefield he could have easily before the chapter ended. Meaning he really did just chill there.

Okay.

No it means he's not going to make an effort to get to the battlefield as fast as he can considering when he was fighting then he wasn't using even close to his strongest Justu. This proves his nonchalant attitude.

Again if someone doesn't been bother to use their strongest Justu at all against how opponents absolutely necessary to capture then I don't see why he wouldn't just chill at the location he was at .

 No I saw exactly what you said, but do you realize that it is impossible for the tiger to have shrunk in the sharks mouth? The shark absorbs Ninjustu and the the tiger is pure air current. Even if we go your logic of the giant water shark not increasing the speed of AT, based on the sharks size on contrast to Sussano, the AT would have exploded on impact. It's impossible for it to travel through water( if you are under the impression that the water didn't increase it's speed) , get smaller , then explode on Kisame. It would naturally have to explode as soon as it came in contact with an opposing force like that would it not ? And you do realize that the shark is made entirely of water, so as soon as AT entered it's mouth it was submerged in water thus increasing it's speed automatically. What Kishi Drew was most likely it's movement pattern .

Gai didn't know AT wasn't going to kill Kisame . He blindly fired it off and Kisame happened to fire off a shark also. So in Gais mind , a direct AT was going to hit Kisame. He had know idea whether it was going to kill Kisame or not. He even directly tells Kisame that his next technique was a one hit kill : [1]
If his goal was to capture Kisame then why would he even use AT, a technique he just described as a one hit kill?

Obito had no idea whether the Super BD was going to kill them or not. And what's the point of Kabuto , Edo Shinobi, Obito , or Madara ever telling anyone to not kill Naruto but capture him if they could simply revive Naruto and his Bjuii ? 

Except that was the very start of the Battle and nobody had even been scratched yet . The first they landed on Hidan happened to be a hit where they all targeted his vital organs despite having concrete orders to get information from two Shinobi from the most elite organizational threat to the leaf. It just does to show that not all Shinobi follow orders to perfection and may get to hyped up or to into danger to let the Shinobi live .

Gai was also in danger considering he immediately entered gates and fired off his 2 strongest techs .

He probably can punch faster. But the 2 AT's were the same size... He cannot punch faster on one and them be the same size.

Madara was actually paying attention to Mei and Ay though. He was completely focused on Naruto and his arm was already swinging towards Naruto. There's is no defense he could have created in that time frame to block AT from hitting him.

Kisame is not closer to Gai at all. AT is still connected to Gais arm and was pushing Sussano and Madara away. Against Kisame it has to travel through the air , then through his shark , then explode on his body.

Once the tiger traveled through the shark it was underwater ..

Something happened with the tiger considering it forcibly shrunk to fit through the sharks mouth. The shark cannot absorb physical attacks so it didn't shrink the AT. It did that itself.


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## LostSelf (Jun 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What? This clearly tells us that if Madara truly wanted to arrive at the battlefield he could have easily before the chapter ended. Meaning he really did just chill there.



He wanted to. He wasn't there a long time to assume he just sit there, wich is what i am saying. The time he stayed there was very brief, this doesn't mean he just took a nap there as he expressed his desires of getting both Jiins. 



> No it means he's not going to make an effort to get to the battlefield as fast as he can considering when he was fighting then he wasn't using even close to his strongest Justu. This proves his nonchalant attitude.
> 
> Again if someone doesn't been bother to use their strongest Justu at all against how opponents absolutely necessary to capture then I don't see why he wouldn't just chill at the location he was at .



What would've PS accomplished? Let's put an example. If a man has two guns and he is sent to kill somebody, but he only uses one gun. Does that mean he was not trying? No. He was using what he thought necesary to get the job done. Wich is what Madara was doing. That has nothing to do with not trying actually. And even then, PS was not a sure victory against two Spammable Bijuus that have 'comparable power' to his Susano'o.

Mokuton was the best of his choices.



> No I saw exactly what you said, but do you realize that it is impossible for the tiger to have shrunk in the sharks mouth? The shark absorbs Ninjustu and the the tiger is pure air current. Even if we go your logic of the giant water shark not increasing the speed of AT, based on the sharks size on contrast to Sussano, the AT would have exploded on impact. It's impossible for it to travel through water( if you are under the impression that the water didn't increase it's speed) , get smaller , then explode on Kisame. It would naturally have to explode as soon as it came in contact with an opposing force like that would it not ? And you do realize that the shark is made entirely of water, so as soon as AT entered it's mouth it was submerged in water thus increasing it's speed automatically. What Kishi Drew was most likely it's movement pattern .



Why it is impossible? The tiger's potency and speed in it's trayectory was more potent than Daikodan's and since it's water and not something such as Doton, the tiger had no troubles going through it. The tiger was not what it went through it but Daikodan's behavior as Kisame states that it's swallowing the tiger but it's not getting bigger. And the tiger was destroying Daikodan bypassing it.

The entire point of that clash was Kisame's jutsu swallowing Gai's just like Kisame expected it, but it wasn't absorbed. But it surely made it smaller. And the only thing Kisame found weird is that his jutsu wasn't getting bigger. Hirudora went through an opposing force, but it wasn't as solid as a floor would be, and it bypassed it. At the cost of size, but it did. The pattern drawn by Kishi would've been very easy to draw it just going through it. But he bothered to draw it getting smaller and smaller as Daikodan swallowed the jutsu like Kisame stated.



> Gai didn't know AT wasn't going to kill Kisame . He blindly fired it off and Kisame happened to fire off a shark also. So in Gais mind , a direct AT was going to hit Kisame. He had know idea whether it was going to kill Kisame or not. He even directly tells Kisame that his next technique was a one hit kill : _appears_
> If his goal was to capture Kisame then why would he even use AT, a technique he just described as a one hit kill?



Because it was the only choice. Asa Kujaku failed, what other option Gai had? And he didn't fire it blindly because just like Kisame saw Gai preparing the attack, Gai saw Kisame as well.



> Obito had no idea whether the Super BD was going to kill them or not. And what's the point of Kabuto , Edo Shinobi, Obito , or Madara ever telling anyone to not kill Naruto but capture him if they could simply revive Naruto and his Bjuii ?



The same Kabuto explained how he could kill Naruto and Bee to put their soul in hell realm. But this is Obito. Do you think he would risk something as important to his plan like this? He should've known that Super Naruto, the one soloing Bijuus was very capable of doing something against it.



> Except that was the very start of the Battle and nobody had even been scratched yet . The first they landed on Hidan happened to be a hit where they all targeted his vital organs despite having concrete orders to get information from two Shinobi from the most elite organizational threat to the leaf. It just does to show that not all Shinobi follow orders to perfection and may get to hyped up or to into danger to let the Shinobi live .



That was their plan. Taking one of them and deal with the other. They are not ignoring orders there as one Akatsuki was enough if we take for granted that maybe they were planning on taking the other like that, especially with the hype Asuma had in mind of them about killing one his old powerful friends.

Even then, their behavior doesn't involve Gai's.



> Gai was also in danger considering he immediately entered gates and fired off his 2 strongest techs .



Because he needed to get the scroll and the only way he could've was going upper gates nd attacking.


> He probably can punch faster. But the 2 AT's were the same size... He cannot punch faster on one and them be the same size.



Why not? What would be different is the potency and speed of the attack, not the size in general since this is not ninjutsu.



> Madara was actually paying attention to Mei and Ay though. He was completely focused on Naruto and his arm was already swinging towards Naruto. There's is no defense he could have created in that time frame to block AT from hitting him.



Gai was behind Naruto, the huge blast was coming from behind Naruto. If he couldn't finish a swing before that and couldn't even dodge it properly then AT can be faster than we think it is.



> Kisame is not closer to Gai at all. AT is still connected to Gais arm and was pushing Sussano and Madara away. Against Kisame it has to travel through the air , then through his shark , then explode on his body.



He might've been. If we look at the size of the Hachibi, that here looks as tall as a Susano'o blade (Gai is barely seen). But them hearing what Naruto was saying might give you a point. However the obstacles Hirudora met doesn't mean it was farther, the only obstacle was there was Daikodan, and Hirudora traveled the shark's trayectory without getting any farther. Against Madara, the Hachibi looks small in comparison. But i am not sure wich is bigger, if the Tiger's face or Hachibi, because in chapter 507, Gai looks pretty small in comparison to the tiger, similar to how he looks compared to Hachibi.

But even is distance was smaller, this does not diminish the speed in wich the blast was thrown, nor Gai's physical condition, something primordial to use gates.



> Once the tiger traveled through the shark it was underwater ..
> 
> Something happened with the tiger considering it forcibly shrunk to fit through the sharks mouth. The shark cannot absorb physical attacks so it didn't shrink the AT. It did that itself.



Kisame said what was happening.

_'It's swallowing his attack but it's not getting bigger'_. 

The shark swallowed Hirudora just like it's suppose to do to any jutsu. And yeah, it was underwater.


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