# Liger vs Bear



## themg3 (Feb 24, 2012)

These are full grown adults for both species, a liger is a hybrid btwn a lion and tiger and grows to be bigger than either of its parents, vs a full grown grizzly bear


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## eaebiakuya (Feb 24, 2012)

Vs Black Bear even a Tiger or Lion will probably win.

But the Liger is a captive animal, he dont have much battle skill. Still, i think he should win.

A "savage liger" or a Lion or Tiger with the size of a Liger could beat even a Grizzly Bear imo.


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## themg3 (Feb 24, 2012)

Then its versus a grizzly bear,


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Feb 24, 2012)

I doubt they are very effective at fighting, seeing as the lion and tiger have evolved seperately for so long. But I may be wrong.


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## Xiammes (Feb 24, 2012)

Liger has shit stamina IIRC, it won't last long in a fight, a minute at best.


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## themg3 (Feb 24, 2012)

Where has it ever been shown or stated to have shit stamina?


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## themg3 (Feb 24, 2012)

The liger is a lot more agile than the bear for 1 thing though, even if it has stamina issues it could try to end the fight quickly


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## Xiammes (Feb 24, 2012)

Ligers are captive animals, while they are big and strong, they don't have the speed or stamina to hunt in the wildlife. Due to its size, it tires out quicker.


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## themg3 (Feb 24, 2012)

Though such assumptions can't be made, A liger is physically faster than a lion, can swim and is very sociable, all of which indicate it would be very successful in the wild, infact studies show that it would actually be quite successful in the wild although I'm nt sure if my source for this is 100 percent true, Also just because its bigger doesn't necessarily mean it has less stamina, I havnt seen anything that suggests so


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## Xiammes (Feb 24, 2012)

I haven't seen any studies that indicate they are anywhere as fast as a normal Lion. Last I remember hearing about them, is that they have very special health needs and are not very fast and get tired easily.


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## death1217 (Feb 24, 2012)

not to mention they are sterile so they would never survive as a species.
I see this going to the bear 9/10 times


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## themg3 (Feb 24, 2012)

They are not sterile, that's for sure, and I'll look for the article for info about it survivin in the wild


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## themg3 (Feb 24, 2012)




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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 24, 2012)

the mutant gets it's head pulverized by the Bear

seriously


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## Toriko (Feb 24, 2012)

Never took you as a cat racist bro


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## Emperor Joker (Feb 24, 2012)

Other than the terrible stamina aren't Ligers bone structure more brittle than either of thier Parents? that's something else that's not going to stack up well against a Grizzly


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 24, 2012)

Brohan said:


> Never took you as a cat racist bro



aint nothing racist about calling a freakish hybrid exactly what it is lol




Emperor Joker said:


> Other than the terrible stamina aren't Ligers bone structure more brittle than either of thier Parents? that's something else that's not going to stack up well against a Grizzly



you mean like Cat gigantism basically? from what I heard no actually

their just freakishly massive Hercules (think that's his name) is a pretty decently aged Liger and he's just fine 

mind you I'd be more worried about the heart of an animal that heavy that isn't supposed to be that heavy then the bones


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## Plague (Feb 24, 2012)

Did anyone watch that show "Animal Faceoff"?

They did a special on Bear vs. Tiger, and the bear won. They also did Lion vs. Tiger and the Tiger won. 

So a Liger could just be a weaker Tiger.

I say the Grizzly takes this.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 25, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> aint nothing racist about calling a freakish hybrid exactly what it is lol



Most dogs are freaks of nature.


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## themg3 (Feb 25, 2012)

Did anyone even bother openin the link I posted?


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## Gray Wolf (Feb 25, 2012)

Rosuto_and_Meshi said:


> Did anyone watch that show "Animal Faceoff"?
> 
> They did a special on Bear vs. Tiger, and the bear won. They also did Lion vs. Tiger and the Tiger won.
> 
> ...



The lion won in the Animal Face off. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_PHs-kbypo[/YOUTUBE]


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## Plague (Feb 25, 2012)

Gray Wolf said:


> The lion won in the Animal Face off.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_PHs-kbypo[/YOUTUBE]



Aww crap...lol whoops. Well, I still think the bear has the edge here.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 26, 2012)

that shows full of crap


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## Azrael Finalstar (Feb 26, 2012)

Indeed. 
I never recalled Ligers being weaker than their parents, I've always heard the opposite (though I'll admit, i could easily be wrong), but even then, a grizz would still kill it 9/10


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## Gray Wolf (Feb 26, 2012)

A polar bear would destroy a liger.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob_oD1IsYbE[/YOUTUBE]


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## themg3 (Feb 26, 2012)

U guys are severely underestimating the liger, it has more speed than an average lion, and is stronger too, not to mention the size advantage it has over both parents, it should easily be able to give the bear a fight if even one of its parents could


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 26, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Most dogs are freaks of nature.



sure but we weren't talking about dogs


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## Masa (Feb 26, 2012)

If a liger had the same fighting attributes of a scaled up lion, it would probably win due to being nearly double the weight of the grizzly, if its just a overweight domestic cat like it seems to be, then the grizzly would probably win.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 26, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> sure but we weren't talking about dogs



You freak of nature 
This really depends on the bear.
The liger would probably give more than a fight for most of them.
I'd say grizzly 6/10 and that depends on the gender.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Feb 26, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> sure but we weren't talking about dogs



Well, technically, everything alive today is  a freak of nature pretty much. Mutation and whatnot.


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## Grimm6Jack (Feb 26, 2012)

Grizzly Bear? A normal Tiger or Lion can kill it. A Liger (if we consider a fully grown wild Liger, not one who only slacks off in captivity) who is larger and stronger than each of their parents can kill it as well.

A Polar Bear defeats any of them. IMO The Polar Bear is the strongest land carnivore.
And please... Refrain from using "Animal Face Off" show fights, that shit's full of bullshit.


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## Waking Dreamer (Feb 26, 2012)

There's no such thing as wild ligers since naturally in the wild tiger and lions dont overlap in territories. 

The only living Ligers are in captivity so no one knows how fast or effective a liger is at fighting since it has never had to.

It is the largest cat living today  but just as how tigers and a lions have weak stamina Ligers could have even weaker stamina due to its much larger size.

The link is a website about Ligers written by a person who is a fan of ligers, but it seems the facts of its speed etc. is just speculation on their part. How did they test that a Liger can run up to speeds of 80 km/h? They're claiming it to be the second fastest carnivore on land. How/why does an animal only living in captivity run up to 80km/h?

You can get these calcs for other big cat predators by observing them hunt in the wild or even having cheetahs in races against grey hounds but Im a bit suspicious of giving this number to Ligers.


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## Shade Impulse (Feb 26, 2012)

"Historically, when the Asiatic Lion was prolific, the territories of lions and tigers did overlap and there are legends of ligers existing in the wild." If we take the legends into account, which I assume we shouldn't. But the possibility of wild Ligers did exist.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> aint nothing racist about calling a freakish hybrid exactly what it is lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Damn, Hercules weighed over 900 lbs There's also another Liger, Sinbad, who weighs the same.

I believe the bear could take it, if we go by largest, there are Grizzlies that out weigh the Liger by 100 pounds. Still going to be a bit hard for it to land a hit I suppose, as cats are notorious for that whole agility thing. won't take many hits from the Bear at all though.

Bear wins with a bit of trouble.


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## Waking Dreamer (Feb 26, 2012)

Shade Impulse said:


> "Historically, when the Asiatic Lion was prolific, the territories of lions and tigers did overlap and there are legends of ligers existing in the wild." If we take the legends into account, which I assume we shouldn't. But the possibility of wild Ligers did exist.



Yeah, I knew that.  Ligers could have very well existed in the wild, but that doesnt indicate how effective they were at making a living. 

If times got tougher they could have died out before their lion and tiger parentage which was a common trend in larger predators/mammals.

As for the grizzly bears, are we considering Kodiak bears? Since its also a subspecies of brown bear. They are comparable to the size of polar bears though some would say Kodiak's would win for being bulkier and more aggressive.


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## fathertime (Feb 26, 2012)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Indeed.
> I never recalled Ligers being weaker than their parents, I've always heard the opposite (though I'll admit, i could easily be wrong), but even then, a grizz would still kill it 9/10


To:Azreal final star,
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 9/10 for the grizzly? Not even close. Tigers in russia have been known for thousands of years to have preyed on even the biggest of brown bears, wittnessed by hunters, local villages, hikers, scientist, zooligist an more of in open grounds not just hybernation modes, which do happen as well. But a bear is no joke to any predator, they have killed tigers in the same fashion, being predators as well an having a margin of there weight in bulk hevier than tiger's, but still even the biggest an strongest of bears fall victim to tiger's extreme hunting/killing(As in where most martial arts came from, watching tigers fight) capabilities. In other words in number accounts they kill more bears than vice versa, simply because bears dont need to feed on meat as 60% of there diet like vegataion/berries, grass, certian plants...ect. Where in tiger's are prone, only to meat/poltry like birds, fish, deer, boar ect...
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Now I read the other thread where someone said that a tiger beats a lion... please do tell??? There are accounts of lions killing tigers in man made settings of pit fights and in the wild, as in india... where they were seen on territorial clashes back in the day when both asiatic lions an tigers were abunden. Yes, of course tigers have killed lions as well being they are akin an identical in more ways then they are not, but differences are of habitats threw evolutionary adaptation, if you think a lion cant kill a tiger 1 on 1, here's some bad news for you.... 
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1.Gieniuss books/Animal facts, Lion named Nero killed Tim the tiger in an australian zoo.(Documantry)
2.1936 Agartala zoo in bengal, a lion kills a tiger.(Local news report)
3.1935 Sikestonians saw a lion kill a tiger in a local town circus act.(Documentry)
4.1934 2 tigers died, In the movie devil tiger from a lion-(Video)
5.1955 oct, 6 Natrual history society, Page 465-468, 3 seperate accounts lion won all 3.(Documentry)
6.1960 Korea pitfights Male lions won majority of all fights.( Hidden news Report)
7.1981 Martin. L Albert witnessed a lion kill a tiger.(Documentry)
8.1954 Lion kills tiger with one blow in boltimore zoo.(Documantry)
9.1935 In the town Bedford masachusetts a Zoo lost a tiger to a lion.(Local news)
10.Gir foreset 3 tigers vs 3 lions, all lions won. (Video) -Youtube-
11.2011 Korea two teen lions killed a adult Bengal tiger in an encloser.(Video)- Youtube-
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In the wild for lions its a no brainer, simply because lions live in "Prides", ergo, no bear or tiger, has been given the title king, because just like King leonidus bested an killed many persians, he used smarts, to take on there enimies by funneling them into the hot gates, to use there superior unmatched fighting capabilities, in exact same form of way lions have killed any and every type of prey they persued. Like killing rhinos, hippos, and even bull elephants in the matter of "Unity" Which till today no tiger or bear has accounts of killing rhinos, hippos an elephants in there prime adult stages.
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Now for "Liger's" you say they are moot... because they are in captivty, thats debateable because of what "Clyde beatty" the God father of animal expert/trainer/tamer of all predators, said often times my new captive wild lions best my raised in captivety lions, simply because they needed not to kill on a daily basis to survive or clash an compete hense learning to fight. But there's a big differnce in what you said an what is ment, from a debate from a liger vs any sub-speices of bear. Your taking the worlds two top of the food chain predators, with unmatched fighting capabilities to any rival living thing an think he will become less of that??? Its not logical, humans have force bread this quality on other animals as well, like breeding the english stafford shire for his unmatched attribute of high tolerance to pain an stamina that no other dog can match, with the american bulldog's fame of bullying other dogs into submission or death with unequaled fighting power, to make a cross bread of the ultimate fighting dog the "American pit bull terrier" which is highly domesticated, same as a liger is in captivity, it wont change the "Fact" of what they are, can do and are made for...Killing!!!
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So in lamin terms, how can a Liger who weighs on average as male adults 900 pounds be anything lesser of his parents killing wise? When hercules is the worlds famous liger not the biggest, there was an account in winscontin a liger that grew to 1600 pounds. Thats the size of 4 average lions an who contours to there weight with hundreds of alibied proof on ligerworld.com as the fundamentals a pitbull surpases his parents, a liger is said even so large, they countor to there weight an have performed, to be just as good, if not better swimmers than there tiger mothers and faster an more nimble than ther lion fathers. With a test of there speed was demenstrated by having one of hercules brothers chase a truck draging meat, whiched clocked in at 58 mph thats 10 mph faster than a lion, who also inherited social traits from his lion father ergo "Pride's" an has 4x the power of the worlds biggest siberian tiger shown when ligers are mingle-ing with other lions an tigers an when just as shown only playing rough, they completly bash lions an tigers meters away. Just imagine if a male liger was in the nomadic stage of forming his own pride, as male lions at 4-5 years old often fight an kill pride rulers to be the next King we're talking one hemped up vicious son of a bitch that wants to fight an kill. 
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Its simple as this, if a tiger an lion has already killed bears, setting them at 50/50 than a bear will have little to nothing to opose a liger, if the liger decides to persue a bear just think "Pitbull", he's now bigger,stronger an faster meaning the bear will get rip to shreds 90/10 "Liger".


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## fathertime (Feb 27, 2012)

Ligers have been around longer than most people know, its just "unbeknownst" a rare re-acuring event in nature. Just like the show monster fish, pretty much every other weekly episode the host of the show travels the world an finds new types of goliath fish, that have been around for thousands of years. Which were never known by standard society, hense the word "Unbeknownst" Ligers have been mentioned as far back as the 1400's, threw art an poets, witnessing cat type classified among's both tiger an lion territory, with cats seemingly different in size an color pattern's of the standard 6 different species of big cats.
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Just like India an Rome, they have a few paintings that replicate ligers of today, by drawings, pottery an colored sculptures, that show a detailed version of a drawn liger next to a drawn tiger that is uncanningly just not the same. Youtube has alot of videos that say female tiger's die giving birth to liger babies because of no C section, which is 100% false. Yes, there were two accounts of that happening, but in nature there is an account of that happening for every living thing. 90% of the female tiger mothers who gave birth to ligers are still alive as of today.
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More lies surface every day, which are confronted head on by liger owners, like there ages are cut in half, when there have been tons of ligers that went past lion an tigers normal life spams of 12-14 in captivity to where some ligers reached into there 20s. The media hit's every corner of pablicaty, as if they are freaks of human insemnation only animals, when all the owners have alibied that it was there own choosings an was also unexpected by them as well. When lions an tigers are raised together its almost 80% of the time they are connected threw out there whole lives, seperation's after a certian amount of years make them depressed, so badly they dont eat, said most of tiger an lion sanctuary's. Finding out when there partnered friends returned from a dividing time spam, they imediatly show signs of improvment threw eating,  an vitaltiy as that was the whole reason, an by doing so often to avoid depressions of the big cats they usaually give way of there emotion's to keep them in the same encloser. Which led to liger or tigon babys you can even google a hybrid lion crossed jaguar called tsunami who is still alive an has a brother as well who look awesomly awesome.
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Ligers have huge strong dense bones as well at-least 4x denser than a tigers, that is why they contour to there weight, allowing swift movements with out hip or joint problems. There are atleast 200 ligers living today although the media shows very few like typing in google "liger" you'll only come across Hercule's, alibing he is one of out of only 10 that exist. If you know where to look they show an abundence of them, growing every where from russia, usa, japan, china, india. Although certian country's have laws for producing them, who slap a 15,000 dollar fine on the zoo, sanctuary or owner, it wont stop the tigers an lions them selves, like a liter just born in china a few weeks ago. Also youtube have ridicules accusations to ligers being depressed because of not knowing what they are, HUH! Really? as being born of any type of living thing crossed by the parents chosing are confused? lol, they are around people that love them an spoil them rotton, with fun activity's all day everyday, dosent have to worry about food or competion an wants crappy writers who met them for a day, want people to belive they are depressed lol. Ligers are the tycoon babies of the big cat world, who dosent have to worry about anything thing there whole lives, but enjoy being pampered with there enclosered tiger, lion, family an friends, that sounds alot better deal out of life than 60% of the wild life tiger's an lion'ss who have it rough an have to worry about being hunted, poached dieing from starvation and other predators looking for to erase them from exsistance.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Feb 27, 2012)

themg3 said:


> They are not sterile, that's for sure, and I'll look for the article for info about it survivin in the wild


They most definately are sterile. Lions and tigers are different species.


Grimm6jack said:


> Grizzly Bear? A normal Tiger or Lion can kill it. A Liger (if we consider a fully grown wild Liger, not one who only slacks off in captivity) who is larger and stronger than each of their parents can kill it as well.


I know it's larger, but is there any evidence it is stronger?


Waking Dreamer said:


> Yeah, I knew that.  Ligers could have very well existed in the wild, but that doesnt indicate how effective they were at making a living.
> 
> If times got tougher they could have died out before their lion and tiger parentage which was a common trend in larger predators/mammals.


Any ligers that exist in the wild die out due to being sterile more than anything else.


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## Waking Dreamer (Feb 27, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Any ligers that exist in the wild die out due to being sterile more than anything else.



It says on wiki that hybrids cats are fertile...?


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Feb 27, 2012)

Waking Dreamer said:


> It says on wiki that hybrids cats are fertile...?



mylesbianbabes.com
Searched it. It seems that occasionally, female ligers are fertile, so I was wrong. But they still have an extremely low fertility, and it cannot work in the wild, because males are never fertile. I don't know what this means for the whole species thing, but this is interesting.


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## fathertime (Feb 27, 2012)

To: Jetwaterluffy1 Ligers an tigons are not sterile, liger's just cant cross directly with another liger same as tigon. But they can be bred back with another lion, say lion x liger will leave the baby 75% lion an 25% tiger, its been done already they call them li-lions or ti-liger there is a big list if you care to look it up, than the process is repeated to increase its percentage of its parents heritage. Its an evolution thing, that nature has set, so there isint an pollution to a certian gene pool, in other word's at some point lions an tigers were the same cat 10s of thousands of years ago. Threw selective breeding threw nature's changing habitat's, they adapted to there enviorment but its a long long process that would maipulate the appearnce ever so slightly threw time, until we have, what we have today.
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If you know of the concept of evolution, have a great deal of knowledge of past cats in at-least a 2,000 year period, you'd know lions an tigers have been shrinking in size every hundred's years or so, because that species wouldent have to be as big anymore for its enviormental survival, just look at the american lion or the saber tooth tiger, they were big for there perposes of selective enviorment's adaptation's, then being more proned and shaped better to survive where they live, hense tiger's are good swimmer's, are striped, can climb fairly well because of adapting to jungle's, as of lions habitat's have thorned tree's, so they need not to climb as much, hense evolutionary, there not as good as climber's. Same with water, africa has very little so lions would have not the need to travel more crossing swamps, lakes, river's ect..hense lions not likeing to swim as often as tiger's.

It would be as same if the other way around was for tiger's survival wise...look at there habitat's, tiger's dont have yearly migrations of the 10s of thousands of animals that migrate to where there habitats of tigers have only small groups of buffalo, elephants, wildabeats. hippos, ect.. africa has 10s of thousands in one herd, ergo learning of the male's traits... it would only make sense when as a cub lions must learn quickly to stay with the pride, by seeing there brothers or sister's being trampled by herd's of stampede's for a long survival period, to where tiger's dont see that as a re'accurring event, hense tiger's are solitary it all depends on the learning traits of there enviroment ergo stripes for the tiger's to blend in with there jungle, foresty type inviorment an mane's for the lion's simply because they must compete amoungs rank with in there own pride's, let alone clashing with other pride's, that is why you always here why lions are more dominate than tiger's because there is a pecking order, to where tiger's only clash with other tiger's for mating or very rare territorial right's ,hense not needing the mane so why should they develop it, its an evolution thing that nature provide's again aimple by crossing the two lion an tiger they grow hugely as if evolution took them back to when they nedded to be big, that is why tigons are so different from liger's they are smaller an more compact then if it was to learn the ways of there enviorment nature would give its way how ever fit it is in its era of surrounding's.
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And as for your question of if a liger is stronger, you must caliberate on that, stronger what??? bite power, pulling power, because there is a reason why every living thing has different attribute's as for biting power, lions an tigers stay around the 900-1100 psi biting power range, as for grizzley an kodiak's around the 1,000-1300 range. I dont know the liger's but if you some how can contact Dr brady bar, who works for national geo Im sure he would be more than happy to do one on liger's. He's the first as of 2006 to build a machine that catches the psi pressure animal bite's, he exploited thousands of years of bullshit guesses of other scientist by constructing huge machine pressure gauges into a smaller compact wallet sized device that animals bite, giving the most accurate numbers ever. He did a few animals on his show on national geographics testing bull sharks 900 psi, hyenas-1000 psi, wolves-400 psi, dogs-300 psi, an crocs the stronget biteing power of all animals 3000 psi. He constructed the device simply because of bullshit media scientist for hundreds of years, have said that the pit bull fighting dog has a 10,000 psi biting power, that is why they win most fights. When Dr braddy bar who is also a major in physics scratched his head an said that's insane power, I mean if you'd balance a small childrens bus that weighs 10,000 pounds on a mans head, it would crush it instantly an would also inply a dog can rip an elephants leg off with ease, so he build his device an went on geo to show case what it was, the pitbull only had 236 psi a rott weiler 306 psi an german sheperd 275 psi thats shy 9,800 psi in what thousands of scientist had estimated. Breeders of the colby pit bull line for hundreds of years, have said pitbulls are not made for power they are made for gameness to fight. An for as pulling power it is debateable because bears have more weight as in inhertia factors aiding there strength but lions an tigers are lower to the ground for better leverage pulling so it depends in what area of strength wise your asking about.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 27, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> You freak of nature



now when you say freak?  



Azrael Finalstar said:


> Well, technically, everything alive today is  a freak of nature pretty much. Mutation and whatnot.



this prefabricated mutant aint saving a liger 



Shade Impulse said:


> "
> Damn, Hercules weighed over 900 lbs There's also another Liger, Sinbad, who weighs the same.
> e.



Hercules died?

and who is father time and why is he filibustering this thread?


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## fathertime (Feb 27, 2012)

Oh, an to waking dreamer,
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Wiki is a good media form of any subject, but try not to get your facts from there, because wiki can be changed at any moment of any time, an be by anyone, a schollar facter or a child, by the edit sign. Thats where millions of youtubers dash to, to get there info from an change them upoun there own terms of knowledge simply by just making a "Wiki account". Just as if you'd look up lion an tiger history battles in the arena, it quotes 2 books of romin gladitorial pittings. Showing that tigers majority-ly won... but my friend from rome as in italy nepal, who's family's been there near the colosiem for countless of generations... said that's only partially true, ergo a story that has been past down from generation to generation it goes like this...
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A certian emperor Cesar, raised a lion cub an a tiger cub till adult hood, to where he demenstrated there loyal-ness to his call, as right an left hand campaions an body guards. In front of the intire colosiem at the end of a gladiator fight, he show cased his trust of his tiger an lion he raised, he then slaped his tiger in the face, with great humble-ness the tiger took it as playing rough an wrestled playfully licking his hands, then he slaped his lion in the face, in an aww of a rage(because lions have pecking orders in there prides) the lion slapped the emporer back in a not so playful manner, scarring his face. Although he claimed to still have loved his lion, in further paintings he did not have his lion by his side only the tiger. Being to have been alibied as the most handsom of all the cesars an now to have a dread-ful scar on his face, he became in-raged by his lions betrayal, showing how unmerciful an unforgiven he was, he then pitted 3-4 tigers against lions to better insure the death of lions hesne more story's deplict tigers winning, for before this cesar other cesar's an emporer's before him have pitted lions vs tigers 1 on 1 for countless of years of imported beast all over the world, asiatic lions often bested caispian, sumatran an bengal tigers with african lions being equal majority-ly with siberian tiger's in battle, but when barbary lions were imported 1 on 1 it was said no tiger sub-speices ever had a victory on a male barbary lion.
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Indians, Romins, british, africans all have the lions winning majority of fights that were pitted in entertainment for Sultans, Kings, Tsar's an such, an majority of the world has given the lion the title king because of his resemblence to the most noble Kings, like King Arther, King Leonidus, King Kahn, King kamehameha an many other Kings who were dubbed king, not just inherited but proved to be worthy with honor, respect, love, courage an power. A few asians have the tiger as there symbol of power but there was no clarification ever as having tigers have the title King, the sole reason why they had the tiger on there flag, was because of the british war. It was to opose the lion flag of the british alibing also not all, but most asians cultures reguards lions as demonic creatures as in terms they have tigers as holy diety's, in more so lions of asia were poached to nearly extinction, to give the tiger a better chance of survival in the wild.
-F
It is evident in mostly every corner of asians such as Koreans, Chinese, an Japanese folklore, story's of the past they do not show leneintcy to lions, even till now days where animal show's, show case an reserve in china an korea,  where tigers an lions are in the same in-closer. They have the audiance's with there loud UHH an AHH's when tigers gang up on lions an bash them around, there are tons of those on you-tube. But, when its the other way around like a video on youtube, has 2 adolsent teen lions at ages at-least only at 1.5 to 2 years old mauling a adult tiger with unmerciful relentless lion goes lion, than all of a sudden they start yelling HOO HAAA as in stop, showing how bias they are, its not just one account its majority-ly all. Another was one not to far back Cheongi the lion killed hobi the imported Siberian tiger in jeonju zoo. The wordings of there new's report are different according to big cat rescue, who dugged out the information that they try'ed to conseal so harshly being that the tiger is there symbol of power an the british had sucsesfully invaded a part of asia. In having to report a story on big cat rescued request, then it was said by the reserved keeper's the tiger was sprung upoun from cheongi the lion, when big cat rescue stated the tiger is the one that persued the lion, when a visitor threw a live chicken in the lions encloser the tiger leaped a portion of a shortin wall to get it, who met its fate with an nomadic lion.
-
Who ever written the wiki on tiger's vs lions sounds pretty bias to me, they mention harsh immature wordings such as lions have no accounts ever in killing a tiger, when I can name 25 accounts from just one source "Clyde beatty" the worlds most famous Lion, Tiger, wolf, bear, puma, jaguar, leopard tamer/expert/trainer an god father animal lover. Has with personal experince, so again wiki is about as basic as a book cover with a lock on it, you wont be able to read its full story.


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## fathertime (Feb 27, 2012)

Oh, an to Immortalwatchdog,
-
Who is father time??? I am... lol... As you can see by my posting number Im new to this site, an other debating sites I came from usally everyone gets what they have to say in one post, to better time elapsing an crediting information, in what your trying to say. Unless I would have replyed to you earlier ....  
-
Me: *No, ligers win*  You: * No, Bears win* 
Me: *No, ligers win*  You: * No, Bears win* 
Me: *No, ligers win*  You: * No, Bears win* 
- 
For about a hundred posting's, when simply I gave the fact's of what I know in one posting, to further get down to buisness ....   -"The Debate"-
-
I guess thats to much for you, so I'll try to keep it simmerd. My bad.


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## convict (Feb 27, 2012)

Most ligers suffer from retardation so I envision a scenario in which the bear right paws the shit out of the liger, which consequently blames its tail and runs circles in angsty pursuit of its supposed aggressor while the bear proceeds to clobber it to death.


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## Heavenly King (Feb 27, 2012)

Rosuto_and_Meshi said:


> Did anyone watch that show "Animal Faceoff"?
> 
> They did a special on Bear vs. Tiger, and the bear won. They also did Lion vs. Tiger and the Tiger won.
> 
> ...



lion vs tiger they said the lion would win because they fight more then a tiger.


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## mcdave (Feb 28, 2012)

Heavenly King said:
			
		

> lion vs tiger they said the lion would win because they fight more then a tiger.


Yep and a further reason was that the mane offers real protection i always thought it was only for show ^^

I think a big Grizzly would easy take this from what i know about Ligers.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 28, 2012)

fathertime said:


> Oh, an to Immortalwatchdog,
> -
> Who is father time??? I am... lol... As you can see by my posting number Im new to this site, an other debating sites I came from usally everyone gets what they have to say in one post, to better time elapsing an crediting information, in what your trying to say. Unless I would have replyed to you earlier ....
> -
> ...



by all means i don't mind detailed posts mores the argument when there is detail and all that..it's just that was very sudden and in great amounts



convict said:


> Most ligers suffer from retardation so I envision a scenario in which the bear right paws the shit out of the liger, which consequently blames its tail and runs circles in angsty pursuit of its supposed aggressor while the bear proceeds to clobber it to death.



so it's essentially Goerge Foremen vs a very big guy with down Syndrome?

this thread is messed up


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## convict (Feb 28, 2012)

^Indeed it is. I find it hilarious.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 28, 2012)

convict said:


> ^Indeed it is. I find it hilarious.



I'm guessing Hercules should have been named Forest Gump then or something


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## Violent by Design (Feb 28, 2012)

Only read the last page, so forgive me if I am behind.


A Liger is a domestic animal, so naturally it has no experience fighting. They are not very violent creatures, and don't really have aggressive instincts (to my knowledge), likely due to the fact that they are not really natural creatures, so there is no reason for their species to have any.

A bear should beat a liger just by scaring it alone.  A liger would get scared from getting hurt. I also give the bear an extra advantage since he has a height advantage as well as being densely muscled and filled with fur, to help against claws and bites from a liger.


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## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Feb 28, 2012)

The only correct answer:


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## fathertime (Feb 28, 2012)

To convict, 
-
So according to you, bear's can do algebra, have knowledge of the solar systems, can drive cars an are classed higher, than the two smartest animals in the world dolphins an apes??? XD XD. Who the hell told you they suffer from retardation??? You just assumed it did'ent you, because to your knowledge, lions an tigers dont cross, HUH! lol, have you read my posting's or what? they have been around for hundred's of years but apperantly, you know everything there is to know there is about hybrid animals. XD
-
Okay wise ass, if you think you know everything. With out google-ing, how many different pure breeds of dogs are in the world? Ah fuck it, you'll probably google it anyway, it only take's a few seconds. There is around 320 pure breed dogs in the world, an org's. like A.K.C recongnize's at-least 1000+ different mixe'd dog breed's in the world, once a dog crosses with another dog it must be given a different title, not just half this half that, because of the word "breeda" it will change the temperment an job title of the dog. Same with cats, but big cats are not domesticated like dogs, they are highly independent animals an on the other hand wont make good pets because all though certian dogs do kill people, big cat's just are too dangerous an unpredictable to house as be part of the family... an if your thinking why are'nt there more hybrid's by nature, its the same reason as every type of animal, to even humans usally stay around there own kind, now day's human's mix by the millions but not to long ago white's were'nt so nice to black's now were they??? I'm "Hawaiian" so I wouldent know to much about being racist like the kkk, who are a bunch a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) listening to a guy who dresses an deems him self a wizard XD.
-
If your refusing to read my old posting's, then read this site, it'll show you there are hundred's of different type of hybrid cats dating hundreds an hundreds of years ago...
-

-
The only thing that is retarded, is your comment's. XD XD


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## fathertime (Feb 28, 2012)

Whoops, lets try that again. Oh there's the problem there was a slash at the end, jeez these site links are so sensitive XD XD here this one should work.
-


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## convict (Feb 28, 2012)

> So according to you, bear's can do algebra, have knowledge of the solar systems, can drive cars an are classed higher, than the two smartest animals in the world dolphins an apes???



You got it man. That is exactly the point I was trying to drive home when I stated a bear will attack a 700-900 pound liger in close proximity. You know, because such a course of action can only be thought up by the top intellects of our time and have nothing to do with survival instincts.



> Who the hell told you they suffer from retardation???



Time for momentary seriousness: I used to be big on Zoology and was part of an animal forum a few years back where a member who was a handler of such a creature, talked about life with ligers.



> You just assumed it did'ent you, because to your knowledge, lions an tigers dont cross, HUH!



HUH!

No.



> they have been around for hundred's of years but apperantly, you know everything there is to know there is about hybrid animals.



So me saying that most ligers are retarded constitutes me claiming omniscience?



> There is around 320 pure breed dogs in the world, an org's. like A.K.C recongnize's at-least 1000+ different mixe'd dog breed's in the world, once a dog crosses with another dog it must be given a different title, not just half this half that, because of the word "breeda" it will change the temperment an job title of the dog.



You don't say? 

Dog breeding is exactly the direction we should take in analyzing who would win between a _liger_ and a _bear_.



> because all though certian dogs do kill people, big cat's just are too dangerous an unpredictable to house as be part of the family



Just riveting. Who would have thunk keeping lions as pets is unwise?



> an if your thinking why are'nt there more hybrid's by nature



I'm actually not.



> The only thing that is retarded, is your comment's. XD XD



Ok I'll try to emulate you to improve. XD HUH! XD XD

Now I XD hope I don't sound retarded. HUH!


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## Violent by Design (Feb 28, 2012)

Ligers are not "retarded", yes, some Ligers do suffer from it because they are inbred, but it is not like it is the majority of them.


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## convict (Feb 28, 2012)

Violent By Design said:


> Ligers are not "retarded", yes, some Ligers do suffer from it because they are inbred, but it is not like it is the majority of them.



You have to take the parameters of retardation into account. The line between retardation and normalcy even among humans is contested to this day, so I doubt animals have a clear cut definition. Perhaps my using the term may have encouraged the wrong idea. From my knowledge, Ligers in question seemed to be a bit "slower" (if that is more acceptable) than their big cat roommates, and my correspondent made it clear it wasn't just an exception.


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## fathertime (Feb 29, 2012)

> Violent By Design
> Ligers are not "retarded", yes, some Ligers do suffer from it because they are inbred, but it is not like it is the majority of them.


-
Dude, none are retarded. Go look at the site I presented an BTW inbred is when brother an sister, father an daughter, mother an son mates, not other speices.
-


> Convict
> You got it man. That is exactly the point I was trying to drive home when I stated a bear will attack a 700-900 pound liger in close proximity. You know, because such a course of action can only be thought up by the top intellects of our time and have nothing to do with survival instincts.


-
XD good luck there buddy, both lions an tiger's have been known to disasemble kodiaks an grizzley's sense forever, using gameness not weight, threw human pitting an rare incountering's in the wild wittnessed by thousands, threw out history. Now with a 1000 pound liger, that bashes around there lion an tiger playmate's who averagely stick around 500 as adults in there in-closer's, when they just play too rough, would have nothing to fear from a bear who is averagly smaller then him. Yes, brown bears can hit in the thousands an a few past the 1300 pound range, but those are record breaker's as in one in a million's, who also are in captivity to get obese, as you say retarded, HUH! More like "domesticated". Your average brown bear as adults stay around the 600-800 pound range, like I said hercules is the most famous non obese liger not the biggest, hobb grew to 1400 pounds an a liger named liger in wisconsin grew to 1600 pounds, being they are rare as shit, they cant tell whats the max weight because if two of there parents can be selective breeded, then they can push boundries threw that.
-
Do you know what selective breeding is? It does'nt just protain to dogs idiot, every cross has an affect on attribute's look's an abilitie which could be a positive or negative threw studying what they wanted from the cross. Even animal, insect, human whatever selective pure speice's has a effect, just like african slaves were bread with the biggest an strongest fittest men into the women by there slave owner's, that's why majority of african americans of today dominate in mostly all physical sports but african americans arnt the only humans that had that quality pushed upoun them. an wow!!! one man gave his opinion on liger's in a zoology form XD Are fucking kidding one man cannot speak for the intire breed, that's why its a job title "Breeder's" not just a person who happend to have that animal crossed.
-
You saying contradicts omniscience??? What are on? BIAs or ignorance, science hasent even presented them at all, in the class of the main big cats, so how would they study it. Its not an over night process, it take's thousands of years to pass judgement on a speices life stlye an overall attribute, shit, they havent even done that now, the basics are even hard to pass on to there preddasor, which often tends to twist facts to opinions. So spare me any thing you think you know on this subject, when right from the start, you thought they were retarded an P.S they arnt so gentle as you think rocky the liger just killed a dumbass who didnt know him, who broke the golden rule never go in the encloser when they are in to feed them.


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## convict (Feb 29, 2012)

> You saying contradicts omniscience??? What are on? BIAs or ignorance, science hasent even presented them at all, in the class of the main big cats, so how would they study it. Its not an over night process, it take's thousands of years to pass judgement on a speices life stlye an overall attribute, shit, they havent even done that now, the basics are even hard to pass on to there preddasor, which often tends to twist facts to opinions.



I honestly have no idea what you are saying. The only thing I have gathered is that this is another one of your tangents.



> XD good luck there buddy, both lions an tiger's have been known to disasemble kodiaks an grizzley's sense forever, using gameness not weight, threw human pitting an rare incountering's in the wild wittnessed by thousands, threw out history. Now with a 1000 pound liger, that bashes around there lion an tiger playmate's who averagely stick around 500 as adults in there in-closer's, when they just play too rough, would have nothing to fear from a bear who is averagly smaller then him. Yes, brown bears can hit in the thousands an a few past the 1300 pound range, but those are record breaker's as in one in a million's, who also are in captivity to get obese, as you say retarded, HUH! More like "domesticated". Your average brown bear as adults stay around the 600-800 pound range, like I said hercules is the most famous non obese liger not the biggest, hobb grew to 1400 pounds an a liger named liger in wisconsin grew to 1600 pounds, being they are rare as shit, they cant tell whats the max weight because if two of there parents can be selective breeded, then they can push boundries threw that.



Bears have been well documented to destroy big cats. Romans used to pit them against each other and the bears invariably won. Why? Bone density. I am not even kidding. A bear's skeleton is so dense that a single hit can crush a lion or tiger. And liger's have the exact weakness which a bear can exploit: Brittle bones. A liger's superior weight isn't nearly the deciding factor here. The framework of a lion and tiger isn't meant to support such mass, and as a result, ligers have very brittle bones that I would predict will get caved in. Add the fact that liger's have slower cognition and a win for the bear is guaranteed.

Fathertime, just went back into your posts and noticed you posted some fights between tigers and lions (I don't know how it helps your case).

Even though it is off topic, I think you're hilarious and since I used to be interested in this stuff too, I may as well expand your list by a few specific accounts, references, and descriptions purely for your viewing pleasure:

These were actually from other forums I was a member of, and there are still many more of which you may have knowledge on:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. “Next, the arena was lowered to feature combat between them -- Romans cheered as lions tore apart tigers, tigers went up against bears, leopards against wolves. It goes without saying that the Romans had never heard of animal rights.”
~Ken Spiro; WorldPerfect
____________________________________________________________________
The Memoirs of Cleopatra
3. “They took on tigers, bulls, and wild boars. Usually the lion won. page 284”
____________________________________________________________________
4."Clyde Beatty had a narrow escape at Sikeston, Mo., when "Detroit," a huge African lion, and "Alice," performing Siberian tiger, started a battle, which ended in the death of the tiger. Beatty had just finished his act and had stepped from the cage when "Detroit" pounced upon "Alice" and the fight lasted for almost 20 minutes before "Detroit" broke the tiger's back. Beatty and his assistants, Capt. W. K. Bernardi, Eugene Scott, Grover McCage and others were unable to break up the fight. It was the second tiger that "Detroit" had killed in the last five weeks and Beatty stated the fight was the most ferocious that he had ever witnessed.
^Two tigers killed by same lion
___________________________________________________________________
6. "He preferred jungle cats to those born in captivity, which he thought were spoiled, and his courage at working with them became legendary. In 1928 at Kokomo a female tiger landed on top of him only to be killed by a lion in an ensuing 25-minute fight that saved Beatty's life."
____________________________________________________________________
7. King Edward has reached the end of SUBMISSION, and Dan, through his greed, THE END OF HIS LIFE. For the lion, disregarding all the usual leonine methods of fighting, suddenly adopted the tiger tactics, attacking from a position straight on his haunches, and with forepaws working, instead of the usual one. The result was the tiger’s claws were tangled in the greasy, heavy ARMOR-like mane of the lion-and useless. When those of King Edward ripped at the foe until DAN sank to the cage floor, A STRICKEN, GASPING, DESEMBOWELLED THING. Edward ceased his attack, disengaged his mane from the now USELESS claws of the Bengal, and went back to his feast!
____________________________________________________________________
8. The first documents an event set up to entertain a prince who s. The fight took place in the pit of a palace compound with the entire encounter being recorded. The film showed that the tiger was at an immediate disadvantage. Tigers use a throat grip as their primary means of killing and the lion's thick protective mane prevented the tiger gaining a hold on the throat joint. On the other hand, the tiger had no special protection, so was vulnerable to attack. In this fight, the tiger was killed.
~Kailash Sankhala and Tiger Territory.
____________________________________________________________________
9. As a boy I used to wonder what would happen if a lion and a tiger got into a fight. For years I would play that over in my imagination and speculate about the outcome. Until one day I happened to see a movie exhibited by Dr. Louis Talbot. He had been in India on an occasion when a lion and a tiger had somehow accidentally fallen into the same pit. Someone was there with a movie camera and filmed the whole thing. I tell you, I watched with great interest as this battle went on! These cats circled one another, one would lash out at the other, they would spit and snarl and leap about in that light way cats have. Then suddenly they would grapple together and roll about, spitting and biting. It was tremendous to watch! Then, quicker that the eye could follow, something happened, and the tiger appeared to cave in. He simply fell down. The lion had caught it at just the right moment, had slapped it on the side of the head, and had crushed its skull. That was the end of the battle.
~Lion Tiger Fight.
____________________________________________________________________
10. There was a great deal of lion and tiger pit fighting held in Korea until 1960. Historic reports say the lion was found very difficult to beat, again due to the head protection afforded by the mane. The film mentioned on the previous page has the tiger as the winner, but this fight would seem to be only one of many that were carried out, and all other reports found, to date, say the lion usually won.
Tiger Territory.
____________________________________________________________________
11. Despite the final appearance given by the movie, tigers were largely unsuccessful in the gladiatorial area. Lions were more popular as they put on an excellent fight display, whereas tigers were surprisingly reluctant to enter into battle. Placed in with lions, the tigers would often simply retreat.
Tiger Territory.
____________________________________________________________________
12. "I can cite a few instances of male tigers whipping male lions, but I can't think of one such case where the tiger didn't have a distinct advantage. I also recall a case where a tiger had a marked advantage and lost the fight. The lion seems to have no fear of the tiger.
~Clyde Beatty
____________________________________________________________________
13. “There is no direct evidence, but if we examine the probabilities in the case of a confrontation between the two some inferences can be drawn. In a fight would de unable to get close to the vital joint of a lion’s neck because of his thick mane, but the tiger is vulnerable to the lion. In any inter-species confrontation lions would also have the advantage of the who pride. But in my opinion a tiger is no match even for a single lion of equal strength. In any inter-species confrontation lions would also have the advantage of support from members of the whole pride. But in my opinion a tiger is no match even for a single lion of equal strength. Moreover, tigers would tend to avoid confrontation by withdrawing from the area, and lions might have found an easy walk over tiger land by forcing the retreat of the tiger from the dry plains at least.
~"Tiger, the story of the Indian tiger" by Kailash Sankhala
____________________________________________________________________
14. “Mr. Bolton said that a friend of his saw, in the circus at Verona, a battle between a lion, and a tiger, a horse, and an ass. The tiger shewed symptoms of fear, and wished to decline the battle with the lion. He fought however at last with great fury; but, though he foiled the lion for a time by his alertness, soon yielded on close contact to the other’s matchless strength. The lion chiefly used his paw, with which he struck tremendous blows.”
~The Gentleman's Magazine
____________________________________________________________________
15. “A lion slaps on the face of a tiger as they fight for the control of a pool at a zoo in Nanjing, east China's Jiangsu province July 18, 2004. The lion finally occupied the cool water of the pool in the summer heat wave after it defeated its challenger in two minutes.”
~People's Daily Online


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## convict (Feb 29, 2012)

And more:


*Spoiler*: __ 



15. ?A lion slaps on the face of a tiger as they fight for the control of a pool at a zoo in Nanjing, east China's Jiangsu province July 18, 2004. The lion finally occupied the cool water of the pool in the summer heat wave after it defeated its challenger in two minutes.?
~People's Daily Online
____________________________________________________________________
16. The tigers hands some hits really but controls none of the fight. The lion lacks a mane so the tiger fails to grip the lion like on the other videos. Undisputedly the lion wins both fights. ^Two tiger losses:
~Jungle Jim 1936 Lion vs. Tiger Fight, for those who want claim that the tiger was meant lose let it be known that the fight existed two years before Jungle Jim in the 1934 film Devil Tiger, which was about tigers. kingdomanimalia_wink.gif
____________________________________________________________________
17. Lost Jungle fight 1: Clyde Beatty, the world's greatest animal trainer, travels the jungles of the world in search of exotic beasts and adventure. Beatty's expeditionary dirigible crashes on a remote unexplored island teeming with wild animals. One the series a unexpected and real life fight between a lion and a tiger is filmed. The Lion defeats the tiger in a circus ring.
____________________________________________________________________
18. "Another subspecies very closely related to the Asian lion - the Barbary lion or Panthera leo leo - became extinct in the wild in 1922 (in Morocco). This animal the Barbary lion had been the dominant animal in the blood sports of the Roman arenas."
~Martin Seyer's dissertation (synopsis), Vienna University.
____________________________________________________________________
19. Although lions and tigers are anatomically virtually the same, male lions regularly fight to attain and maintain pride females?"I suspect that male lions on average would be more aggressive and persistent than male tigers, hence would prevail."
~Frank C. Mendel, professor of pathology and anatomical sciences at UB.
____________________________________________________________________
20. ?When the safari spectators see a fight between the lion and the tiger cumulating they reveal a big interest. When the time comes the real image inside the safari is disappointing. To be how the lion is actually stronger.?
~Lee Yong Phil is a practiced lion & tiger keeper at the Everland Zoo, and on a interview on he clearly stated that Koreans who believe that the lion is no match for the tiger is living in a fairy tale. I been recently privileged to view the complete Everland videos and though evidently bias the tiger, the striped cat performed less than mediocre.
____________________________________________________________________
21. The lion is not so powerful an animal as the tiger, but fights much better. A tiger will make his attack, and then retires; but a lion never retreats; he fights until he is killed.
~The Asiatic Journal and Monthly Miscellany
____________________________________________________________________
22. ?Equal in size to the Lion, though generally inferior in strength, it wants not courage or ferocity to attack the king of beasts; a temerity which generally proves fatal.?
~The Volume of the World: Embracing the Geography, History, and Statistics, of the Nations of the... - Page 794
____________________________________________________________________
23. Following a wounded lion is considered most awkward work, for they have credit of making their charge good, and of not swerving on one side when fired at close enough to singe them almost, as I have known to be the case with tigers on more than one occasion? ?Asia?s Last Lions?
~This is not really a source but still it just points to the lion?s renowned aggression.
____________________________________________________________________
23. This animal is the scourge of Asia and the Indian Islands. Equal to the lion in stature, though generally inferior in strength, it generally falls a victim to its temerity in so doing, unless some disparity of age or other circumstance should bring the strength and power of the two animals to more of a level.

~A History of the earth and animated nature v.1 Pg 369
____________________________________________________________________
24. A tiger attacked an animal trainer during a ?Murat Shrine Circus? performance. The tiger grabbed the trainer by the hip, dragged her down, grabbed the leg and started pulling her towards the cage. One of the lions came off the pedestal and slapped the tiger with his paw and sent her flying through the air, giving the trainer a chance to escape. The trainer required 18 stitches. (ar-news e-mail, 03/1997) Dieci's

I think the tiger is a female and I know it is no much of a fight but I feel no reason to remove it.
____________________________________________________________________
25. ?Clyde Beatty was one of the world's most recognized animal trainers. Known mostly for his circus work, Beatty also worked in film with his cats. He was a practitioner of the "whip and chair" school of training. He thought that animals could only be taught through fear. During the filming of a fight between a lion and a tiger for the movie The Big Cage, Beatty threw ammonia in the tiger's face so the animal would look angry on film. The cat was so enraged it fiercely attacked the lion, and the lion in turn killed the tiger.?

~ Cynthia Boris 1999, the big cage issue has met a storm of controversy and some claim that the tiger was not killed.
____________________________________________________________________
26. In February 1951 a lion fought and killed a tiger as 3,000 children looked on at the opening performance of a circus at Detroit, Illinois, U. S. A., and another tiger was killed by a lion at Madras Zoological Gardens in September the same year after being transferred to the lion's cage while his own quarters were being cleaned. (2 tigers were killed)
~A friend found these for me and boy a double whammy, it should be found in multiple sources like the Guinness book of animal fact and feats.
____________________________________________________________________
28. The following month a large Bengal tiger named "Tim" was killed by a lion named "Nero" at Perth Zoological Gardens, Western Australia. The tiger was in a cage adjoining the lion and a lioness named "Bessie". The lioness forced up the steel slide dividing the cage and Tim, curious, put his head through. Nero, the zoo's biggest lion, promptly bit him in the throat, and in three minutes the tiger was dead.
~Guinness book of animal fact and feats
____________________________________________________________________
29. ?In June 1949 a circus at New Bedford, Massachusetts, U. S. A. lost its tiger after a battle with a lion.?

?A lion and a tiger battled to the death here. The lion won. When Biller Brothers Circus moved on to its next stop, it left behind the carcass of the loser, a tiger weighing quarter of a ton.?

~This is the same account with two sources one is from Guinness book of animal fact and feats; I do not have the name of the other one on hand, but I can retrieve it if need be.
____________________________________________________________________
30. Please don't forget the lion vs. tiger fight that was reported in last year's September (2005) edition of Monthly Chosun, the magazine with the largest circulation in South Korea nowadays. During this fight, Po Cheol the majestic male lion knocked out a very large, 200+ kg male tiger, sending him flying as far as 3 meters!
~Monthly Chosun
____________________________________________________________________
31. After this we came to the memorable lion and tiger fight which was supposed to settle the aged controversial question, "which is the better fighter, the lion or the tiger?" The idea of a fight to the death between a lion and a tiger fascinates almost anybody who has any red blood in him. Here are the two most unsociable brutes of the jungle, both treacherous, wary, cunning and ferocious. Darwin and some others thought the lion's mane was intended as an armor for its blood vessels during a fight, rather than as a sexual adornment, which is the contention of a few. This mane the tiger misses. On the other hand the tiger is an individualist, not given to ganging as the lion is. The tiger is therefore nearer to being self-dependent. In my experience, the lion has shown himself somewhat superior to the tiger in fighting, yet it would not be safe to say that the lion can always whip the tiger, for sometimes it comes out the other way. Sometimes the tiger holds off three or four lions and leaves the cage unharmed.
~Jungle performers, 1941
____________________________________________________________________
32. DETROIT, A LION ATTACKS AGAIN. Prince, the young lion that killed a tiger during animal trainer Clyde Beatty's performance at Shrine Circus here, snarls in cage after seriously- wounding another tiger at show last night. Beatty was hopeful of saving the tiger's life with penicillin. Penicillin failed to save the second tiger.
AP Wirephoto.
____________________________________________________________________
34. ?He said he would watch the killer lion very close from now on, but indicated he felt there was nothing too unusual about the fight. "The biggest expense I have is tigers killed by lions.? he said. "They are natural enemies ? but then, that makes the show better." He said lions had killed "probably 50" tigers in the years he has been working with the big jungle cats.?
~Clyde Beatty ?Wow 50 Deaths, so I will be fair and add about 40 victories for the list, since I have few Beatty accounts. Let Roman lessons be learned. This will be a endless pool for the lion to draw victories from...


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## convict (Feb 29, 2012)

And more:


*Spoiler*: __ 



75. ?A tiger is supposed to win a fight with a lion. But it took a rifle bullet to do it at San Francisco's Fleishhacker Zoo. Zoo' director Carey Baldwin told the story Wednesday. Two lions were being transferred to other cages through the tiger grotto Sunday. Tuffy, a 12-year-old lion, somehow opened the- door to the grotto and attacked Nicholas, a 6-year-o1d Siberian tiger. Riflemen came running when zoo keeper Alec Weiss sounded the alarm. The lion had an apparent death grip on the tiger's neck. Carroll Soo-Hoo, principal benefactor of the zoo, took one look and killed the lion. The tiger was worth $3,500, the lion $100. Catherine, the female tiger at the zoo, cowered in a corner during the fight.?
~San Francisco (AP)

This is a very good account, and it is probably my favorite, the lion was quite old and judging by his price was not a prime specimen or and possibly a smaller Nubian/Eastern lion. Nevertheless he defeated a male Siberian in his turf and would have most likely killed him if he was not shot. I am fairly certain if he was not killed he would have killed both tigers. So much for the Siberian tiger being out of the lion?s league!
____________________________________________________________________
76. Sept. 19?Sikestonians had a glimpse of big-game hunting when a lion killed a tiger during circus performance here.
~The Sikeston, 1935
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77. ?Now, as to a lion and tiger, I should say that the tiger is the more powerful of the two. At the same time, it is more cowardly, has more of the slinking nature of the cat, and is more treacherous. I believe I?m fully qualified to state, as I?ve had them both on me. I bear the teeth marks of a lion that shut his jaws tight on my legs. But it isn?t the teeth of the big cats trainers fear so much. It is the claws, being hooked, tear out the flesh and sinew as they are withdrawn. When a lion goes at a trainer he starts right towards him, with no subterfuge, mouth open and tail as stiff as a poker. A tiger cringes and crawls until he makes his spring. In a fair fight it would be hard to guess which animal would come off victor, and much would depend, I think on the one that got the first good hold. The lion also is protected around the neck by the heavy mane, which is an advantage. There is one instance I remember where a full grown lion and tiger engaged in combat, by unforeseen chance of course. It was when the John O? Brien Show had its winter quarters in Philadelphia and I was connected with it. ?A lion and a tiger were in a compartment cage, with a partition between. In some manner this partition was battered down in the night and the two big felloes got together. They had probably been issuing challenges to each other and promising what they would do to one another if the chance came. When morning arrived we found the two in the lion?s cage, the tiger dead and the lion all chew and clawed to pieces, but still full of fight.?
~George Conklln, ?Adventures With a Circus?
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78. ?LION KILLS TIGER WITH ONE BLOW. Curiosity killed the cat today at the Baltimore zoo?the cat in this case being a $1,200 year-old Sumatra tiger. The tiger got into a between-the bars tangled with a lion and the lion ripped a gash in the tiger's leg. The tiger was found dead in its cage today. Fifty stitches had been taken in the tiger's foreleg after the brawl. Tuesday he was put under anesthesia to make him sleep. But this plus penicillin and other medicines couldn't save him. Death was blamed on pulmonary thrombosis, Zoo Director Arthur Watson said the tiger stuck his paw over a metal guard into the lion's cage in a gesture of curiosity. A male lion did the rest.?
Baltimore (AP) ?Zoo Battle Results In Tiger?s Death? 1954
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79. Lion Kills Attacking Tiger
?When a connecting door between two cages was left open at Agartala, Bengal, by a forgetful zoo attendant, a tiger charged its neighbor, a lion. The fight was ferocious, but did not last long, the lion literally tearing the tiger to pieces.?

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87. ?It was a fight to the death between a lion and a tigress in the arena at Bosktock's show yesterday before the audience gathered, and the lion won. Last night "Annie." the tigress was gasping out her life in her cage, while "Romeo" the big eight year old lion pompously paraded his cage as if proud of his feat. Prof. Charles Millere, one of the animal trainers connected with the show is getting up a new act. In it are two lions, two tigers a Thibet bear, a polar bear and a big baboon. Every morning they are marched out into the arena and put through their paces behind the 20 foot iron railing. As yet the animals are not on very friendly terms. Yesterday morning the lions and tigers did "their turn" Everything went well, and Prof. Millere was congratulating himself that the act would soon be ready for public production. Suddenly "Romeo" and "Annie" came close to each other. It all happened in a moment. "Gr-r-r!" snarled "Annie," "Romeo" roared. Then the tigress flew at "Romeo" and tried to catch him by the throat. He shook her off with one toss of his head; she tried for the shoulder hold. She missed it by an inch. Either clutch secure, and a tiger will hold one say the trainers, until it is killed. In a twinkling the arena was in a tumult. The baboon was screeching upon a pyramid, paralyzed with fear, and the bears were lunging madly against the iron bars of their pen in a mad attempt to get away. "Romeo" batted his paw at "Annie" and knocked her down. She sprang wildly at him. One savage roar and he buried his fangs in her spine. Deeper and deeper sank his teeth in the soft flesh. The tigress shrieked madly and clawed frantically to get free. Every animal in the place heard the conflict and began echoing a lusty chorus to the fight. The attendants were powerless. Both beast were fighting for their lives. Millere pronged them ruthlessly, but he might as well have used his weapon on the board floors. "Romeo" hung like grim death. Millere whipped a revolver filled with blanks out of his pocket. "Bang! Bang!" went his weapon, but it didn't disturb the death hold of "Romeo." Mr. F. C. Bostock, the proprietor heard the rumpus and rushed into the arena. In his hand he has a fire extinguisher. He turned the nossle full into "Romeo" nostrils, and the big beast let go. Millere and his helpers drove "Annie" back with their long prongs. She sank helplessly in a corner, while "Romeo" with bristling mane and lusty roar, slowly retreated into his cage without a scratch. The Tigress had to be carried to her cage. There was an ugly wound in her back, and the examination showed that the spine had been injured. Last night she was unable to stand up, and it seemed that here death will be a certainty. "Annie" is worth $2,000, and had she submitted to training her value would have been double.?

The Gleaner, Friday November 2, 1902
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88. ?The lion trainer forgot to lock the door in the partition between the lions and a female tiger that we had just brought, after his rehearsal at Bavenna, OH, and the tigress pushed it open an walked into the lion?s den. A terrible fight followed, in which one of the lions disemboweled and fatally injured her.

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89. ?The amphitheatre had grown so still, that the clear melody of the flute was distinctly audible over the whole vast space. As soon as the disturbance ceased, the king of the beast, apparently untroubled by the new visitor, returned to his food. But the cowardice, peculiar to nocturnal beasts in the daylight, awoke in the tiger. He beheld in the shrieking multitude friends of the flute-player, and seeing the lion eating, seized the nearest piece of meat. But with a single bound the lion sprang forward, roaring loudly, to defend his property. The tiger?s claws clutched the lion?s and a fierce struggle began. The lion aimed terrible blows at his antagonist, which the tiger avoided with marvelous skill; the tiger?s teeth seized the lion?s mane, but at the same instant the latter tore off with his claws from the upper part of the tiger?s head half the skin, from which an eat and a broad trail of blood upon the sand, the tiger returned to his cage, where he howled piteously. The grating was raised, and soon only a faint whining was audible. Either the animal was dying, or the keepers had stupefied him to be able to cure him. The lion stood fiercely over his prey, which no one now disputed.?
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90. ?The tiger, the largest cat, was first brought to Europe in 19 B.C. and used in the games by the Romans or kept as a pet. After the empire fell it didn?t reappear in Europe until 1478, but had already gained an underserved reputation as a savage, cunning, yet a cowardly beast, without the lion's pluck or bravery.? 
~Spirit of the Wild Cat
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91. ?500 Pound Circus Lion Arrives In Fitchburg Today After Killing Huge Tiger. The incident, as related today by the trainer of "cats," who has been engaged in this daring business for 29 years or since he was nine years of age took place before the end of the act which involved six lions and ?Roger,? the tiger. The prince, who boasts of partial American parentage, his mother being a native of the United States and. his father a Spaniard, said that the battle lasted but five or six minutes.?
Fitchburg, Mass, Friday, June 3, 1949


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## fathertime (Feb 29, 2012)

> Bears have been well documented to destroy big cats. Romans used to pit them against each other and the bears invariable won. Why? Bone density. I am not even kidding. A bear's skeleton is so dense that a single hit can crush a lion or tiger. And liger's have the exact weakness which a bear can exploit: Brittle bones. A liger's superior weight isn't nearly the deciding factor here. The framework of a lion and tiger isn't meant to support such mass, and as a result, ligers have very brittle bones that I would predict will get caved in. Add the fact that liger's have slower cognition guarantees the win for the bear.


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Let me guess, your getting your info from wiki an friends XD Liger bone denisty are 4 to 6 times denser than siberian tigers, they contour to there weight, do you know anything at all of ligers, beside's the made up standard's your giving them, lol liger's clocked in faster than lion's if you didnt know that, ligerworld.com can fill you in on your 6th grade anology on liger's XD. If you'd know anything about russia, thousands of accounts, of siberian tigers that prey on the biggest of any brown bear's in open grounds not just hybernation mode's, dont belive? Scroll to google an type in tiger "predation on bears", they state bears are a small percentage of there diet's. Again, size has won them a few victory's, but there's a difference from a few, to the word "majority".
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There even was a famous account in mexico 1985, a pitting with a grizzley bear name ramadan, a spanish fighting bull name panthera an a asiatic lion named parnell. First to fight was the lion an bear to see who would be victor for panthera. The bear was able to toss around an wrestle the lion down, there's no mentioning the lion's skull or bones breaking, in fact it was said almost gru-test in how the lion mangled the bigger bear's face to ground beef, an with pure gameness out fought the bear, if not for parnell to have ran into a stubbed corner of the metal cage knocking himself out, the lion would have killed the bloodyed up bear. After 3 weeks of healing they decided since parnell Ko'd himself the bear was to face panthera first in an aww of the crowd they witnessed a bull reaptively superman dive into the bear, wave after wave of his horns peercing, the bear now failing again an agin to even get a grip to hold panthera, started to avoid the raging bull, who panthera caught ramandan on the arena's wall yoking upwards like a rag doll dispite the bear looked hevier than the bull, an few seconds later, the bear fell to his back in a convulsing state who then the bull hooked, troted an stamped on him till there was no movement. after a short two weeks later  parnell the lion faced panthera who had an advantage holding an suffacating the nostrolls for almost the intire fight as they do with buffalo similar in size panthera thrashing around broke free an circled around for a fast hook, but being the arena was to small for the lion to evade as much as they usally do, he had to absorb each toss to the air an after a few head on colisions retired to a corner, where they let parnelle back in his cage. I have read others with bull baiting but little with proof only hear say an bias talk twisting the story. For bears catch an break the neck's of bull moose but dont be like bias school girl they put up valiantly never making it easy as if all they do is twist they expend energy on somthing like caribu who's horns are rounded out soft as a glove an deer who are ridiculesly not any where near on par with a spanish fighting bull speed, feriocty an power so if you do find a reliable source not hear say or forums just repeating what they herd from some smuck making it up, send it my way.
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lol I asked about romin days from a person who's from rome, he was from italy nepal, an I asked about tiger's an bears an others too, he simply said, bears? tell anyone who thinks bears won more to just show me a book or on the web 10 statue's dedicated to the bear, he said there a few but can you, find them? With there alibied story also saying, tell these yanks to come to rome, you wont find 10, you wont find hundreds or thousands, you'll find millions of statue's, art, sulpture's, paintings of there champion of the arena the "Lion" not the bear or tiger, or croc, or dogs, or elephant, who majority being pitted, lost to the lions.
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Oh an Btw, I posted accounts of lions killing tigers 1 on 1, because some one said that tiger's win everytime an never lost HUH!


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## mcdave (Feb 29, 2012)

ligerworld.com

Lol that name totally proofs that they are not full of bias.
I can proof that underneath the earth is a giant labyrinth full of mole People and then claim Wikipedia is full of sh*t.

Please but this 


			
				fathertime said:
			
		

> I asked about romin days from a person who's from rome, he was from italy nepal, an I asked about tiger's an bears


is not the right way to discuss things.


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## fathertime (Feb 29, 2012)

> then claim Wikipedia is full of sh*t.


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Hey mcdave, your dam right! Wikipidia can be changed at any minute at any time of the day, simply if you make an wiki account. How do I know this? I did it my self, an for a whole hour I changed around super man's wiki's detail's with hilarious word's being changed around like superman to "souper" man, an strongest to dumbest, my friend from across the world agknowledged it the same miniute it was done an was laughing his ass off, simply by hitting the "Edit" sign. But they have mods who view any change's if there's bad words or offly topic statements, who change it back by the hour, so I dont know what the fuck are you talking about, wikipidea aint full of shit? XD its for the public an can be changed by the public, at any time an by anyone, who has an wiki account... try an change ligerworld.coms wordings XD.
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An for your thinking I made it up, then do what he asked me to do, FIND THAT INORMATION. You cant, because it its self is made up, there's no numbers on the bears being the winner's when you could probably tell any of the billions of local's from Rome if lions wernt the champions of the arena an bears were, they'ed probably slap the shit out of you, same with telling an african local, that lions were only dubbed king from the toon lion king XD they'd slap you even harder, its been known for thousands of years already why the title's have been given to them.


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## convict (Mar 1, 2012)

I actually liked your incoherent ramblings because I believed hidden underneath all that drivel was a well of factual knowledge and a drive to elevate the discussion. But after reading this:



> Liger bone denisty are 4 to 6 times denser than siberian tigers, they contour to their weight



I have come to the conclusion that you are just full of shit. Ligers express the giant gene not the damn superman gene. They probably wouldn't be able to move a damn muscle with bones 6 times as dense as a tiger's. I won't go into the assorted ratios of the minerals and proteins that contribute to the skeleton, but even a high school science class teaches that size is _disproportional to density_. Size will work against the liger. The skeletal framework of a lion is optimized for its own size, not a liger's.

I actually have many relevant sources for my claims, such as increased bone density of the bear, which don't include the easily spammed "ligerworld" and wikipedia. One of them came in the form of a book which I will mention later. For now here is a quote from Dale Miquelle:



> The bigcats have reduced collarbones when compared to Ungulates and Bears, which increases flexibility and speed, *while comprimising ultimate strength potential*





> lol I asked about romin days from a person who's from rome, he was from italy nepal, an I asked about tiger's an bears an others too



And to ascertain the results of matches between lions and bears thousands of years ago in ancient Rome, you ask a random ass Italian and expect me to drop my case?

Finally you point out the universally used epithet "King of the Jungle" to claim that lions are the strongest animals out there. Brilliant. The phrase was not coined because lions are the most powerful creatures walking the lands. If that were the case a bull elephant would bear the title without question. I am sure it was a mixture of the lion's grace, ferocity, and regal disposition that secured that title.

Your reference to Ramadan and Parnell doesn't really help you since they dueled for a while and the match ended in a draw. The only reason the lion wasn't clobbered was because of its speed. Here is an exact quote regarding that fight. The bear actually tossed the lion around:



> CALIFORNIA'S DAY OF THE GRIZZLY 2008 By William B. Secrest
> Page 204, Oakland Daily Evening Tribune April 1,1895:
> A DRAW Parnell fights a big bear. Laredo,Tex., April 1
> 
> ...



Oh and another book that you should look at: _California Grizzly_  by Tracey Storer. It specifically describes well document fights between bulls and bears. A bull would at times gore the bear thereby wounding it, however, the bear would invariably triumph by grabbing the bull's neck and bashing it's skull in. The book then tells us that the fiercest African lion was imported to produce a better fight, however and I am quoting this from the book:



> the great Californian handled the African king as a cat would a rat



And there you have it.


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## In Brightest Day! (Mar 1, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_ZGEKH6A9I&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## fathertime (Mar 1, 2012)

> The great Californian handled the African king as a cat would a rat


Lmfao I read this same article an book tons of time's, which leave's me to know you got nothing XD.. a rat puts up no accord to a cat, yet your quoting that lame ass book which says "the lion did out game the bear" XD XD. Which the book states there's tons of accounts, yet it dosent even present 1 XD. So by all means you should be able to find tons more right??? Bull shit! You cant! I'm not surprised at all, I was just waiting for you to bring the only thing any idiot brings, the california story. Yet, I have an abundent of shit that's coming your way, so lets play the simple game, you so eagerly wanted to play. You show me an account with a reliable source of a bear killing a tiger or lion an I'll show you two for one, that's how much I have of the two big cats mauling an killing any sub-speices of bears.
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Oh, an btw ligerworld isint the only place that has feats of ligers, messybeast.com shows how bigger ligers are an how stronger they are as well, going into your bull shit assumptions of a liger having even brittler bones than lions or tigers XD when they wouldent even be able to move at all, let alone support weight of a 1000+ pounds if there bones were'nt denser'er dumb fuck.
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An about that italian guy from nepal named "Anthony" from the city Baglug, I rather belive a local, than some internet scavanger. Again, do what he asked me, find other's that alibi the bear as the arena champion, besides your past page comment even pointing out that barbary lions were the victor of all pittings XD XD what a dumbass, a hypocrite to your postings XD
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Here I'll start it off, with an account of one tiger killing 8 bears!

" Hornocker and Quigley bring their great experience with North American mountain lions to their Siberian tiger investigations. Earlier, on the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico, Hornocker discovered that a single female cougar had acquired a taste for wild sheep and alone was endangering the desert bighorns living on the range. Recently on the Sikhote-Alin Biosphere Reserve, he and Quigley discovered a similar situation. A 400-pound (180 kg) male Siberian tiger had developed an even stranger preference for just one prey: brown bears. Although red deer and other game were readily avaiable, this cat stalked and ate bears almost twice as heavy as itself. The biologists tracked the tiger through the snow to eight separate bear kills, all of which seemed to have been accomplished without great effort, except one. In that kill, there was evidence of a vicious battle with bits of bear hide strewn over a wide area, but the tiger had won." 
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There you have it, 8 bears. Now since I'm giving you chance in two to one, before I even start showing you more, you have to present me 4 with reliable sources...Good luck!
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Oh, and I by the way, how do I post picture's on hear???


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## Waking Dreamer (Mar 1, 2012)

In Brightest Day! said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_ZGEKH6A9I&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]



Thats a nice quality one.

I used that vid in my  thread.


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## fathertime (Mar 1, 2012)

I forgot to adress your bullshit assumptions in why not just name the elephant the king  because of his size an unmatched power. XD dude are you all right??? Elephants arnt classed as predators, they are herbivores, let alone omnivore or conivore. Unless you think that human kings only dine on vegatation XD. 
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Lions resemble the qualities of noble kings such as honor, respect, courage an power. Though not all Kings are as noble as arther or leonidus, they resemble Kings unmerciful side as well, as killing there own brothers to flush out the weak for rights to rule, as new Kings often have had accounts of wearing the crown threw savatoge, of poisoning or killing of there children. Who nomadic lions, have as first priorty to kill there rival's cubs and how Kings often go to war an conquer the entire plain of land, lions do as well. With lion's having killed any oposing predator or persued prey on earth more to say, there is not one animal they went up against that they couldent kill single handedly or threw "Unity". Killing rhinos hippos an yes bull elephants, heres some accounts of lions killing your so called biggest an strongest bull elephants threw "Unity".
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Lion predation on elephants

    Thu, 2006-09-21 22:18 -- John Hawks           

I'm reading a bit about risk in large animal hunting, and I ran across an article by Dereck Joubert on elephant hunting by lions in Botswana. 

Over the 4 years, we observed a total of 74 elephants killed by lions, including eleven elephants in 1993, seventeen in 1994, nineteen in 1995, and 27 in 1996, suggesting an increasing hunting success rate. All the elephants killed, with one exception, were from breeding herds (females and young). The exception was an adult bull, previously wounded by another bull, who remained alive for several days before eventually being killed by the lions. The great majority of the young elephants killed were males, and two-thirds of the kills were of elephants in the age range 4-15 years, with highest hunting success achieved for elephants aged 4-9 years (Table 1). The animals killed were commonly on the periphery of, or straggling behind, the breeding herds, with nearly half killed more than 50 m away from the main herd. Hunts were less commonly attempted on calves which were under the age of 4 years, which remained more closely associated with their mothers. Hunting success for elephants older than 4 years apparently doubled from 33% (n = 9) in 1993 to 62% (n = 61) in 1996. Many attempts to kill adults bulls were made in
 1996, when we saw lions attacking elephant bulls almost nightly although only one hunt was successful. All except one of the kills were made at night, and hunts occurred more commonly on dark moon nights than when the moon was bright.
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Has a band of brother bears, ever have an account killing bull elephant's with there so called skull shattering power???NO! FUCK NO!XD Hense he did not conquer everything ergo, no title king for the bear. Which breaking necks only were on elk, deer, moose who have no means of defense, let alone offense to opose the bear an I never herd of a legit breaking of there skulls in any form of news who bias punks like you over exaggerate. Who threw tons of accounts, Ive read of ilegal pitting them for gambling purposes, not one was mentioned even being able to grab hold a mad thrashing bull for a minute, they were all flown around like rag dolls, while pitted with prime bulls. Bulls who run at 40 mph an clash with bone shattering football catuuuu-shis with other bulls, an has bended metal car frames with out a blemmish on there heads, shown yearly in spain, at the running of bull show's. They would take a bears hardest whack's all day every day. What would make you think a 600-900 pound bears paw swipe of only a 3-4 foot radius would do, to a 2000-2500 pound, pissed off bull.
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If you knew anything about bull fighting, the bull fighters as in human metador's are never allowed to fight an experinced gamed bull passing a 1,400 pound weight class, they are always young physiced bulls or overly aged an are maintained at a certain weight. Back then spains early days were alot like mma's early days, no rules or regulations, thats why when primed 2000 pound an up bulls enter'ed the ring with metadors, bulls cleaned out 5 to 8 metadors per show.  
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But dont let this educational speech slow you down, in coming back with your so call tons an tons of accounts where bears killed lions or tigers, more the other way around XD


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 1, 2012)

fathertime said:


> To: Jetwaterluffy1 Ligers an tigons are not sterile, liger's just cant cross directly with another liger same as tigon. But they can be bred back with another lion, say lion x liger will leave the baby 75% lion an 25% tiger, its been done already they call them li-lions or ti-liger there is a big list if you care to look it up, than the process is repeated to increase its percentage of its parents heritage. Its an evolution thing, that nature has set, so there isint an pollution to a certian gene pool, in other word's at some point lions an tigers were the same cat 10s of thousands of years ago. Threw selective breeding threw nature's changing habitat's, they adapted to there enviorment but its a long long process that would maipulate the appearnce ever so slightly threw time, until we have, what we have today.


Read my link and post above you and you'll see that MOST igers are strile, with a very small amount of females being fertile. Not enough to start a species.


Violent By Design said:


> Ligers are not "retarded", yes, some Ligers do suffer from it because they are inbred, but it is not like it is the majority of them.


Actually, they are the opposite, they are hybrid, but it is still a genetic disorder so still causes problems, including largely intelligence.


convict said:


> That lions were only dubbed king from the toon lion king XD they'd slap you even harder, its been known for thousands of years already why the title's have been given to them.


The only reason why they are called king is because they bully other animals into giving them their prey. This has nothing to do with their fighting ability.


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## fathertime (Mar 1, 2012)

Anyone know how to post pictures???


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 2, 2012)

fathertime said:


> Anyone know how to post pictures???


Go on the image you want to copy, right click, click "copy image url", go back on the reply to thread screen, click this button:

then paste the url in the box that turns up, then click OK and you're done.


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## fathertime (Mar 2, 2012)

-


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## convict (Mar 3, 2012)

> Lmfao I read this same article an book tons of time's, which leave's me to know you got nothing XD.. a rat puts up no accord to a cat, yet your quoting that lame ass book which says "the lion did out game the bear"



It is a Simile. Don't take it literally.

By "out game", the book meant the lion had better mobility and faster attacks. No one is denying that. But when the bear caught it, the lion was tossed around like a rag doll.

I got nothing? Here we have a credible book, stating a Grizzly bear handled the lion as well as bulls, yet I have nothing. What articles do you have about African lions defeating full grown Grizzly bears? Oh right. You have your friend Anthony from Baglug.



> I'll show you two for one, that's how much I have of the two big cats mauling an killing any sub-speices of bears.



You have to account for other sub species with a grain of salt. Not as much as for big cats, but in a bear's case, sub species make a hell of a difference. Grizzly bears are by far the most aggressive, have the highest strength potential relative to body mass, and can also reach alarming sizes. Various other species of bear can be as small as under 250 pounds. I mean, look at that dinky little Black Bear that fought the lion in the video above. He was half as big as an average grizzly from Yellowstone, had a much leaner physique, and yet still gave a larger male lion with fully differentiated mane trouble. Imagine how a much larger, stronger, and more ferocious grizzly would fare?

More sources on Bears killing tigers?



> After the tiger killed the boy, it jumped over a wall and down the grotto of a big russian bear. The bear killed the tiger with the greatest of ease, and that was a part of the whole terrible tragedy - a Russian bear could kill a tiger so easily.





And from Tiger trappers 1956:



> The Tiger ambushed the Bear, but missed.  The Bear turned and "quickly dispatched its adversary [the Tiger] with a few swipes of its terrible claws".



Notice a pattern? The tiger always has the advantage of ambusing the bear. Even your source claims that.

Another source:



Which states:



> Brown and Himalayan bears also scavenge on tiger kills and can chase tigers off their kill.
> This means that tigers have to kill additional prey."



And on to your tiger killing bear source...I find it really hard to believe that a 400 pound tiger killed multiple bears almost twice its size when the largest recorded Assuri bear in history was 760 pounds. And those are the specific subset of brown bears in that region. Additionally, the statement about predation of brown bears twice its size is even factually wrong. The tiger referenced in Erwin A. Bauer's book (your source) _Last Big Cats_ was named Dale and professional Russian literature sources (I.V. Seryodkin, 2006) specifically state that Dale killed no adult male brown bears. Dale was able to kill two adult female brown bears (much weaker) of _almos_t similar size and was wounded both times, and in one case seriously injured.

And in regards to lions and elephants...did I say that, rarely, a whole _pride_ of lions can't take a bull elephant? That is completely irrelevant.

You claimed "King of Beasts" meant the lion is the strongest animal. One on one, a lion has absolutely no chance against a bull elephant, rhino, or a hippo.

This is what happens. Multiple lionesses shooed away:

here 

More lions are scattered by a single elephant:

here

Here is a whole pride of lions unable to take on a female hippo:

here

Occasionally a whole pride can be successful, but don't even try to bring the "King of Beasts" argument in a one on one fight.



> Has a band of brother bears, ever have an account killing bull elephant's with there so called skull shattering power???NO! FUCK NO!XD Hense he did not conquer everything ergo, no title king for the bear.



The complete idiocy within this quote is so apparent, I am highlighting it so others can witness it.



> Oh, an btw ligerworld isint the only place that has feats of ligers, messybeast.com shows how bigger ligers are an how stronger they are as well,



You need to learn what a credible source is.



> Though not all Kings are as noble as arther or leonidus, they resemble Kings unmerciful side as well, as killing there own brothers to flush out the weak for rights to rule, as new Kings often have had accounts of wearing the crown threw savatoge, of poisoning or killing of there children. Who nomadic lions, have as first priorty to kill there rival's cubs and how Kings often go to war an conquer the entire plain of land, lions do as well. With lion's having killed any oposing predator or persued prey on earth more to say, there is not one animal they went up against that they couldent kill single handedly or threw "Unity"



Learn to be concise and not to spout random nonsense like this. Maybe more people would read your posts then.



> when they wouldent even be able to move at all, let alone support weight of a 1000+ pounds if there bones were'nt denser'er dumb fuck.



My my. How testy.

And the lighter bones of the liger can support the weight, but they are no where near ideal because this is an unnatural occurrence. Maybe in a 1000 years, if ligers could actively reproduce, their genome would evolve and incorporate increased parathyroid, and other proteins which could alter their bone composition, thereby strengthening their bones. But since that will obviously never happen, ligers are stuck like this.

And this is also why the increased size of ligers is outwardly deceiving, but when we go deeper into their structure, we see a flawed physique that contains elements which would be more fitting for a smaller cat.


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## Waking Dreamer (Mar 3, 2012)

They say moose have at times be found to be decapitated in the wild. Its not a common occurrence but it is still a natural one. Moose are very territorial animals and may even challenge a grizzly bear crossing its territory. 

Its at times like these a bear will swipe at the confronting moose where its head would be swiped right off.


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## fathertime (Mar 3, 2012)

> By "out game", the book meant the lion had better mobility and faster attacks. No one is denying that. But when the bear caught it, the lion was tossed around like a rag doll.


-
lol bullshit, does it say rag doll??? Do you know the differnce from being able to toss 500 pounds, from tossing 500 pounds of opposingly equal strength, push off yes, not toss. Try tell a 250 pound man to toss a 150 pound man who's opposing him, unless you think wreslting is real an they suplex people by pure strength, when they are aided by the person being throwed XD Now imagine trying to throw somthing that has claws that perice an latch on an has a bite considered stronger than his. Just look at there jaws threw dead bones of both, the back teeth of lions an tigers are bigger to enable a harder bite and no one dis- credted that book, but on pure bliss if thats all you got, than this is gonna be shorter than I thought.
-


> Grizzly bears are by far the most aggressive, have the highest strength potential relative to body mass, and can also reach alarming sizes. Various other species of bear can be as small as under 250 pounds. I mean, look at that dinky little Black Bear that fought the lion in the video above. He was half as big as an average grizzly from Yellowstone, had a much leaner physique, and yet still gave a larger male lion with fully differentiated mane trouble. Imagine how a much larger, stronger, and more ferocious grizzly would fare?


-
XD are you fucking kidding me, major the lion??? He's a trained lion, with being for a movie, you'd think they'ed let a wild african lion interact with bears, kids an village folks?? lol your stupider than I thought XD an by all means bring up that korean vid with the bear pushing around the what??? "teen female lion" lol that aint no feat if your gonna look for pathetic wins, you wanna talk size an power being your only trump card's XD hears one for you .... New york times news article 1909, john helliot's circus act. A new comer into john helliot's act a polar bear, brushed up against brutus the lion, brutus sprang upoun the polar bear an they grappled, helliot had a hard time keeping out of there way, of them rolling over an over tearing at each other with teeth an claws. Helliot lassoed brutus with a rope around his throat an pulled back tightly the polar bear was bleeding from the breast an throat, it staggered over the lion but fell dead before it struck a blow.
- 
Go ahead look it up on google, its in a form of an documented article from New york times, considering on average polar bears are around 700 pounds of pure muscle an bulk over the biggest grizzley an kodiaks record breaker's with being a few feet taller for reach, yet what happened to your so call super strength in size an power??? XD the Polar bear died from who???  2 lions, 3 lions, a pride, XD NO! just one lion, wise ass! Not a black bear, panda bear, brown bear, kodiak or grizzley but the biggest an strongest bear on earth, the polar bear, in what, open ground? NO! In a confienment small circus ring, where the lion had no means of using speed for parrying, but speed for persuing faster than the polar bear could even process XD.
-
And what are you trying to do, pit the worlds biggest grizzley bear to an average sized 500 pound lion, dont you know lions can grow huge as well? There's tons of accounts of poachers claiming 700- 800 pounders in the wild, there's even 2 spaid brother lions in a sancutary, both tipping the scales at 950 pounds, just youtube 900 pound lions. When you can youtube the 1200 pound grizzley an see a fucking ridiculesly fat as shit bear, who looks like he cant even get up a jog let alone a sprint.
-


> And on to your tiger killing bear source...I find it really hard to believe that a 400 pound tiger killed multiple bears almost twice its size when the largest recorded Assuri bear in history was 760 pounds. And those are the specific subset of brown bears in that region. Additionally, the statement about predation of brown bears twice its size is even factually wrong. The tiger referenced in Erwin A. Bauer's book (your source) Last Big Cats was named Dale and professional Russian literature sources (I.V. Seryodkin, 2006) specifically state that Dale killed no adult male brown bears. Dale was able to kill two adult female brown bears (much weaker) of almost similar size and was wounded both times, and in one case seriously injured.


-
lets go over your exact wording's hear from this paragraph -
["dale killed NO adult bears"] -then state- ["dale KILLED 2 adult female brown bears"] XD XD 
Are you fucking serious, do you know what contradict or hypocrite means? XD guess not. So no bear in history grew past 760 pounds in the entire population of brown bears in russia XD okay budd, take your fucking meds an talk to the thousands of animal experts of brown bears in russia, I'll let them drown you with all the tons an tons of accounts of brown bears in russia flying pass the 1,000 pound range.
-


> The complete idiocy within this quote is so apparent, I am highlighting it so others can witness it.


-
XD thats all you got? Im sure other's dont know why would you dis-credit your self by bringing it back up, when its 100% true, in making yourself look like the idiot XD.
-


> Learn to be concise and not to spout random nonsense like this. Maybe more people would read your posts then.


- 
What the hell kinda come backs are these, do you have numbers in who's viewing our exact postings? XD Dam your a fucking idiot!
-


> And the lighter bones of the liger can support the weight, but they are no where near ideal because this is an unnatural occurrence. Maybe in a 1000 years, if ligers could actively reproduce, their genome would evolve and incorporate increased parathyroid, and other proteins which could alter their bone composition, thereby strengthening their bones. But since that will obviously never happen, ligers are stuck like this.
> 
> And this is also why the increased size of ligers is outwardly deceiving, but when we go deeper into their structure, we see a flawed physique that contains elements which would be more fitting for a smaller cat.


- 
So from there bones are more brittler than lions or tigers, to not ideal XD talk about who's full of shit. Natrual occurrence? To fucking who??? there are, according to indians of gurat, gir forrest an tons of other districts of india, threw thousands of years, have repeatadly seen ligers an tigons, that were documented threw art and sculpturing idiot. Skeleton made for a smaller cat? With lions an tiger's popullation disappering 90% because of man. how can there be time to breed umongs healthy canidate's of there pure speices lines of like the barbary, when saber tooth tigers american lions were even bigger than ligers of today dumb ass.
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1.1967 far east of ussr schaller studied a tiger who killed 2 brown bears.
2.In the region sikhole-alin tigers have brown bears as part of there diet.
3.David prynn book has accounts of tigers killing "adult" brown bears.
4.George P. sanderson book has bengal tigers killing black bears account(s).
5.1951 bank of taibe river a bear was mauled by a tiger.
6.Baikov 1925 tigress kills mother bear of three cubs. 
7.1959 tiger kills large brown bear by svetleya river.
8.1998 sun heans wild life protection office witnnessed a tiger kill a moon bear.
9.Bruin the tiger kills bigger bear threw a pit fight for a crazed king.
- 
It's a no brainer, that a male brown bear can oppose an even kill a male siberian tiger but like I said, the word "majority" favors tigers. Tigers kill brown bears who are 2 times there weight, when bears are persued it is hardly never of similar size, the bear always has the weight advantage, yet why would there ever be an account of a tiger killing any sub speices of bears, tigers just are better fighters, a bear at the same weight class, would get demolished by any tiger. Just as martial arts is shown, it mostly always trumps size an power.


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## fathertime (Mar 5, 2012)

Here's the fighter's status:
-
                        -LIGER-             VS                -BEAR-                       WINNER 
                      -------------                           ------------                    -----------
              1.Height= 10-14 Feet tall           1. Height= 6-9 Feet tall          "LIGER"
              2.Weight= 800-1600 Pounds       2. Weight= 600-1500 Pounds   "LIGER"
              3.Speed= 55 Mph                     3.Speed= 40 Mph                  "LIGER"
              4.Bite power 1400 psi               4.Bite power= 1000 psi           "LIGER"
              5.Teeth size 3.8 inches              5.Teeth size=2 inches            "LIGER"
-
                               ATTRIBUTES WINNER:     -----"LIGER"----- 
-

Fighting stlye:

-   Ligers half inheritance from lion father= Sprawlers: Includes dodging, parying, pouncing, swipe's/slashing, throat bite's, nasell sufication, spinal bites rectractable claws for tearing and grabing.   

-   Liger half inheritance from tiger mother= Technical fighters: Includes standing on two legs to bash/swipe/grab, pouncing, extreme acrobatical in leaping 10 feet high, throat slashes, throat bites, spinal bites, rectractable claws for tearing an grabing. 

-   Bears= standing on two legs while swiping with not tractable claws, throat bites, spinal bites.  

-Fighting capabilties WINNER: --------"LIGER"--------- 

-
 Bone density of lions an bears indications:
-http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/410/Re-Lion-vs-Bear-strenght-at-parity?page=- 1
-This site shows indications of alaskan brown bears bones are larger than lions, though the numbers are almost identical in density, threw bone marrow reduction of lions make there outer walls more solid, for acrobatical movements without wear on there bones an joints, yet keeping output power just as high as bears. Although little studies have been takin on ligers so far, threw geno of supporting larger weights of an average 600 pound increase, the liger bone density numbers are considered passing hippos an rhinos.
-
Social life style: 
-
Bears: Are solitary an mate yearly, males than abandin the females to raise 2-4 cubs until 2-3 years of age than all cubs part ways. Reaching maturity they fight for territorial rights as in high food source's an for mating rights. Yet no unity in hunting do to solitary life style.
-
Ligers: They inherit the social patterns of there lion fathers, which averagly a pride has 2 males an 10 females an records grew to big as 8 males who tolerated each other an shared 20 females thats 28 lions in a single pride. Who yearly the males has up to 2-4 cubs with 6 out of the 10 females, until 2-3 years old an are driven out of the pride for purposes of making there own prides, which males in there 4-5 year age's are in there nomadic stages to over throw pride rulers or form there own, in territory clashes an mating rights. In nomadic stages brother lions numbers are as a few as 1-3 an as high as 5-8 in a single unity of hunting an fighting for ruling of the territory. Sense ligers also have tiger solitary genes as well, it blends with the lion traits just making prides smaller from average lion prides to small liger prides, shown in captivety, li-ligers an li-li-ligers has been produced.

Social life style Winner:            ----------LIGER----------
-
With out being bias, in a pit fight or cage Liger vs any bear, 1 on 1, male vs male it will be around 8/10 winner "LIGER"
-
In the wild, if ligers ever do keep populating as much as they have been these pass 200 years an have a relase into the wild program, of any certian conteinent than just like lions, would dominate any "A" list pradetor using "UNITY" even lions will be taken over from ligers from being a superior animal in every way.
-
Overall winner of this debate of LIGER VS BEAR 

                                     " __________________________"
                                     {-------------LIGER---------------}
                                     " __________________________"
                                                       ^_^


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 6, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> now when you say freak?



you catch on quickly watchdog.

Srsly what happened to that dog?


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 6, 2012)

fathertime said:


> In the wild, if ligers ever do keep populating as much as they have been these pass 200 years an have a relase into the wild program, of any certian conteinent than just like lions, would dominate any "A" list pradetor using "UNITY" even lions will be taken over from ligers from being a superior animal in every way.



How are they meant to do that when they are mainly sterile?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 6, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> How are they meant to do that when they are mainly sterile?



the krogan do fine don't they?


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## convict (Mar 6, 2012)

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> lol bullshit, does it say rag doll???



No, but it does say ‘as a cat would treat a rat’, both phrases essentially meaning that the bear was far stronger than the lion and annihilated it. But you cannot seem to get that they are expressions, and are not meant to be taken literally.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> an by all means bring up that korean vid with the bear pushing around the what??? "teen female lion" lol that aint no feat if your gonna look for pathetic wins,



I didn’t mention any Korean video. What are you going on about?



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> He's a trained lion, with being for a movie, you'd think they'ed let a wild african lion interact with bears, kids an village folks??



Trained lions get into fights all the time. Do you think trainers can train lions to fight so viciously with bears, and just back off as if nothing happened? These aren’t dogs. Events like the fight are a rarity, and we are lucky to see it caught on film.

And about your account of the lion killing the polar bear, I have once again (as with the Dale case) found an account that completely derails your source. I have a primary source of someone who was actually witness to that very fight. This is what he has to say on the matter:



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> " usually a polar bear can kill any of the big cats, but i have seen a lion kill a polar bear", Louis Roth, _forty years with jungle killers_, page 204-205.



He witnessed that very fight, and talks about it as if it is against the norm for a lion to win. Basically your quote:



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> t's a no brainer, that a male brown bear can oppose an even kill a male siberian tiger but like I said, the word "majority" favors tigers.



Is exactly the opposite of the truth. Exceptions can occur, but usually the bear is the victor. 

AL G. Barnes, whose circus specialized in wild animal acts, stated:



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> “In a fight, a lion or a tiger would not stand a chance”



This was specifically in regards to his own lions and tigers against his bears.

How about a story about a female polar bear killing two adult male lions? The same quote also states how a small bear killed a tiger.

This is quoted from a _Field and Stream Magazine_, 1944,  written by the infamous Harold Mecracken, when asked who would win between a lion and bear:



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> This is a question which frequently shows up in my mail. I have answered it before, and in connection with one of these answers, I received a very interesting letter from Howard Ward, the well known animal trainer of bears and big cats. I quote in part: You state that a grizzly can kill an African lion, which is correct. Even smaller bears are capable of killing lions and tigers. In the Denver, Colorado Zoo, there is  a polar bear that killed two full grown African lions. Not long ago, a large tiger belonging to Clyde Beatty was killed by a small Russian bear.



I researched into the female polar bear who killed two African lions, and found out her name was Velox. This site has a picture of her:



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.31stinfantry.org/velox.htm


Look how unimpressive she looks compared to large grizzlies.

I also looked into the small bear killing a tiger, and found this quote about the incident next to a clipping:



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> The 500 pound male tiger name Prince; owned by the notorious Clyde Beatty, was killed in a fight with a Russian she-bear. This bear ( pictured ) appears to be of the same sub-species - Ussuri brown bear - black grizzly - the Russian grizzly bear. These bears ( females ) seldom top 450 pounds and are more often smaller; around 380 to 400 pounds.



So here we have a smaller female bear killing a tiger. Want to know what happens when a female tiger faces a male bear without the advantage of surprise? I have a clipping of a bear named Bill who immediately went after a female Siberian Tigress after his cage was opened and fell upon her instantly with his increased mass, enveloping and crushing her within seconds (I am paraphrasing partially).

Here is another source of a brown bear initially caught off guard by the tiger springing on it, but when it got loose, it beat the tiger:



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Basically the bear ended up making the tiger its bitch.

In regards to your examples, firstly, don’t give black bears as an example, because they are generally, much smaller, weaker, and less aggressive. Secondly, it has been made apparent that tigers do predate on bears in certain regions (I actually looked up some of your examples since you didn’t source them), but almost only when the bears are smaller in size. Tigers particularly go for females, and that actually makes sense. Also in these cases, you have to remember that bears are omnivores, with limited diets which generally don’t consist of tigers or wolves. Tigers on the other hand have a wider array of animals to choose from and in hunting always have the element of surprise.

And note, I am not saying bears of all sizes and subspecies can beat tigers. But in the majority of cases, the Adult male Grizzlies have the advantage by far.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> So no bear in history grew past 760 pounds in the entire population of brown bears in russia XD okay budd, take your fucking meds



Your lack of comprehension is dragging out this overblown conversation. I said Ussuri bears – those prevalent in the Sikhote-Alin Biosphere where Dale attacked – could not reach more than 760 pounds, not bears from all of Russia. 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And what are you trying to do, pit the worlds biggest grizzley bear to an average sized 500 pound lion,



500 pounds is not the average weight of the lion. More like 420 pounds as National Geographic testified. The only subsets averaging a bit larger are those from the Ngorongoro Crater and delta. While here are stats for the average grizzly in one of the largest reserves:



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> "Reliable data on measurements of grizzly bears exist for populations in the Brooks Range of Alaska (Rausch 1963), the Yukon Territory (Pearson 1975), and the Yellowstone ecosystem (Craighead and Craighead 1973b). Weights of large adult animals from the Yellowstone ecosystem ranged from 158 to 204 kg for females, and from 363 to 500 *kg* for males.




*Spoiler*: __ 





> There's tons of accounts of poachers claiming 700- 800 pounders in the wild,






The heaviest wild lion on record as stated by NG and even Guinnes is one of 690 pounds (314 kg) shot in 1936. Random ass poachers can say all they want, but we go by official numbers.

And those 900 pound fatass captive lions you are talking about were experiments to see how large a lion can get. They were neutered, and fed as much as possible. I feel sorry for the poor bastards.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Come on stop wasting my time. I have long since become bored of your nonsense. Did not read that I said dale killed no adult MALE bears? Or do you not know the difference between male and female? I am not surprised either way. Buy as can be seen by my numbers, female bears are much smaller than males.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Dam your a fucking idiot!



Listen tough guy, you can’t expect me to take you seriously if you ask me why grizzlies don’t hunt elephants. Can you not get that elephants weigh tons more than bears? And bears don’t form a coalition with 10-15 other bears to hunt with them. Nor are bear/elephant territories as intertwined as elephant/lion territories. Geez it looks like I am talking to a 5th grader.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> So from there bones are more brittler than lions or tigers, to not ideal XD talk about who's full of shit



You really can’t comprehend very well can you? The former causes the latter. A Liger’s bones are not ideal because they are more brittle. 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Skeleton made for a smaller cat? With lions an tiger's popullation disappering 90% because of man. how can there be time to breed umongs healthy canidate's of there pure speices lines of like the barbary, when saber tooth tigers american lions were even bigger than ligers of today dumb ass.



Yes ligers can’t breed and create a niche in this world. This is exactly why evolution cannot favor them over time. And your grammar strikes once again, but if you mean Sabertooth cats etc of years past were bigger than ligers – yes some subspecies were as big, but they were given a chance to evolve and a form skeleton catered to their size, and ligers do not have that chance.


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## fathertime (Mar 6, 2012)

> jetwaterluffy
> How are they meant to do that when they are mainly sterile?


-
Dude, how many times do I have to repeat myself? ligers an tigons cannot be crossed directly with another liger of 50/50 lion/tiger, but they can be bread back an forth in the matter of crossing them with different percentages of there liger/tigon back grounds like lion x liger equals li-liger and a liger can then produce with its li-liger mate its been done already, if your so intrested in keep commenting back why not go look where I asked?. 
-
In the 1980s, ligers were bred at the tiger park in Thoiry near Paris owned by Vicomte Paul de la Panouse who allowed lions and tigers to roam freely together; so freely they interbred. One of the ligers, Julie, produced a cub, though its paternity wasn't known. It was reported that in 1984, 2 "ligrons" (ligers) mated and produced offspring, thus disproving that hybrids were sterile (The Gazette, Montreal, Quebec, May 14, 1988. p I3 ); but the sire of the 2nd generation was probably Julie's own sire, a lion.
-
Patrick the male liger mated with a female lion producing 2 li-liger cubs, 1904 in hagenback's circus two ligers were produced, 1 of the two ligers had cubs with a tiger making 3 ti-liger cubs. Also in the shrine circus a liger that lived to 27 years old twice the ages of lions an tigers, had 4 seperate litters of ti-ligers with 2 different female tigers.
-
Do you get it now? Ligers arnt sterile it was just an assumption. 
-
Here's more ligers that were documented if you thought hercules was the first.
-
In 1935, four ligers from two litters, were reared in the Zoological Gardens of Bloemfontein, South Africa. Three of them, a male and two females, were still living in 1953.
-
Engraving of "lion-tiger" in Lloyd's Natural History, facing page 44 (1896)
-
A colour plate of the offspring of lion and tiger by Geoffrey St Hilaire (1772 - 18
Engraving of liger cubs born 1824 by G B Whittaker (engraving dated 1825)
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Cuvier reported a litter of three lion-tiger "mules" born in October 1824 in England to an African lion and an Asiatic tigress owned by Mr Atkins, an itinerant exhibitor and animal dealer. They shared a den and were observed to mate frequently during the previous July. The cubs were born at Windsor and were shown to his Majesty
-
Elsewhere, it was reported that H Smith bred ligers from a Persian (i.e. Asiatic/Indian) lion and a "king tiger" (Royal Bengal tiger), which were born at Windsor on 17 October, 1824 though these could be the same hybrids that Cuvier reported. In 1888, Fitzinger recorded H Smith's hybrid of tiger and Persian lion at Windsor in 1824. He also described 4 sets of hybrids between a Barbary Lion and Indian tiger in the years 1827, 1829, 1833 and 1838. 
-
A definitive account of the Atikins hybrids, with dates of litters, comes from "Lloyd?s Natural History", edited by R Bowdler Sharpe LLD, FLS &c. A Hand-Book to the Carnivora. Part I. Cats, Civets and Mongooses by Richard Lydekker, BA, FRS, Vice-President of the Geological Society etc, etc, etc. (Published 1896) . Page 45: Lion-Tiger Hybrids:
-
The history of these hybrids has been very carefully worked out by Professor Valentine Bail, Director of the Science and Art Museum, Dublin, from whose papers the following account is taken. The parents of these hybrids were in a travelling menagerie owned at first by Mr. Thomas Atkins, and subsequently by his son Mr. John Atkins; and a total of six litters of hybrids were produced between the years 1824 and 1833. The parent Lion was bred in the menagerie from a Barbary Lion and a Senegal Lioness; while the Tigress was born in the collection of the Marquis of Hastings at Calcutta, and was purchased when about eighteen months old from a ship?s captain, to whom she had been given by her original owner. Being of the same age as the Lion, she was placed with him in the same cage ; and in the course of two years proved to be in cub. The following is a record of the six litters produced by the union of this pair.
-
In his ?Illustrated Natural History? (1853, 1874) the Rev JG Wood wrote: Dissimilar as are the lion and Tiger, there has been an example of a mixed offspring of these animals, the lion being the father and the Tigress the mother. The lion had been born and bred in captivity, and the Tigress bad been captured at a very early age, so that the natural wildness of their character had been effaced by their captive life, in which they felt no need to roam after. living prey, as their daily sustenance was always forthcoming. It has already been mentioned, that the young of the lion are marked with faint stripes of? the tigrine character.
-
(1902-1903), A H Bryden wrote about Hagenbeck's "lion-tiger" hybrids: " It has remained for one of the most enterprising collectors and naturalists of our time,
-
On 6th December 2004, a Bengal tigress produced healthy liger cubs sired by an African lion. The Russian Information Agency Novosti claimed it to be the first ever liger produced from this combination (possibly the first in Russia). The parents lived in neighbouring caves in the Novosibirsk zoo and got used to each other. The female liger cub was named Zita and resembles her tigress mother with clear tiger stripes, but has a lion's background colour and many leonine features. Her brother remains with his parents in another Siberian zoo. In November 2005, three liger cubs were born in the Novosibirsk Zoo to an African lion and a Bengalese tigress. This second litter from the same pair is the result of a genuine attachment between the two big cats which have been housed in neighbouring cages since childhood. Staff at Novosibirsk Zoo are considering the possibility of scientific research into liger fertility. During 2005, two tigons and three ligers were bred at the Shenzhen safari park, in southern China (near Hong Kong)
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The Valley Of The Kings sanctuary in Wisconsin has a liger named Nook. Liger cubs were born at the Ark zoo in Germany. A pair of ligers in Peking zoo, bred from an African lion and an Ussuri tigress. In April 2005, a liger (erroneously called a tigron) called Samil was born at the Italian Circus in Vigo, northwestern Spain. Samil is a cross between a female tiger and a lion and therefore is a liger.
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In October 2008, three liger cubs were born at the winter zoo of circus Embell-Riva (Bellucci family) in Italy.
-
On 15th August 2010, Taiwan's first liger cubs were born in the private "World Snake King Education Farm" in Kuijen, Tainan county. 
-
G Peters included several hybrids (liger, tigon, leopon, leguar) in his "Comparative Investigation of Vocalisation in Several Felids" published in German in Spixiana-Supplement, 1978; (1): 1-206.
-

Thats just a few that were documented, there actually are tons more the people of india the only place in the world where lions an tigers have over lapped territory, have witnnesses by the thousands an for thousands of years, seeing ligers an tigons as rare rea-peering events that dwarfs the documented ones so like I said just look around google can find the basics but there tons more if you know where to look.


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## fathertime (Mar 6, 2012)

> No, but it does say ?as a cat would treat a rat?, both phrases essentially meaning that the bear was far stronger than the lion and annihilated it. But you cannot seem to get that they are expressions, and are not meant to be taken literally.


-
So basically you want to say, its not suppoesed to be taken literally, yet you add in the bear anihilated the lion, when they stopped it as a draw? Ok buddie if you say so.
-


> I didn?t mention any Korean video. What are you going on about?


-
I knew you eventually would've brought it up, hense everything you brang up below are exactly what I knew you were going to come back with XD.
-


> Trained lions get into fights all the time. Do you think trainers can train lions to fight so viciously with bears, and just back off as if nothing happened? These aren?t dogs. Events like the fight are a rarity, and we are lucky to see it caught on film.
> 
> And about your account of the lion killing the polar bear, I have once again (as with the Dale case) found an account that completely derails your source. I have a primary source of someone who was actually witness to that very fight. This is what he has to say on the matter: " usually a polar bear can kill any of the big cats, but i have seen a lion kill a polar bear", Louis Roth, forty years with jungle killers, page 204-205.


-
Yes indeed, you know nothing in how gental captivety raised lions can be, look at christian the lion or the lion that hugs that korean lady, who saved his life or the tons of vids that show the making of black an white movies, which I'd  love to post them yet, this CP Im using is outdated to only basics my new com broke down an this one is a 2003 XD. Nice of you to do your research to the tee, but the fact is, does louis roth state he "HAS" seen other's of the vice versa? NO! He states thats out of the norm because it is against his expectations, meaning you bringing his opinon means JACK SHIT!
-


> Is exactly the opposite of the truth. Exceptions can occur, but usually the bear is the victor.
> AL G. Barnes, whose circus specialized in wild animal acts, stated:?In a fight, a lion or a tiger would not stand a chance?


-
Again another opinion? Has AL.G barnes lost a lion to a polar bear? NO! talk about who's waisting who's time an just filling the whole screen with bullshit opinions, he states of an account of a polar bear killing two african lions was it his? NO! leaving only an opinionation!
-


> This is a question which frequently shows up in my mail. I have answered it before, and in connection with one of these answers, I received a very interesting letter from Howard Ward, the well known animal trainer of bears and big cats. I quote in part: You state that a grizzly can kill an African lion, which is correct. Even smaller bears are capable of killing lions and tigers. In the Denver, Colorado Zoo, there is  a polar bear that killed two full grown African lions. Not long ago, a large tiger belonging to Clyde Beatty was killed by a small Russian bear.


-
Nice, I like How you emplemented that the polar bear killed two lions at the same time, when they are seperate accounts. Who the hell said it was impossible for a bear that can reach 2000 pounds cant kill a 500 pound lion, when you try to hint how pathitic velox looked? When? When shes young an by her self, or when she got older an became a giant an the worlds most powerfullest carnivore, then managed to kill those lions seperately XD. Im well aware of clyde beattys act, that had a bear kill a tiger, which he was arrested for why? Because there was alot of speculations in how it happened, some say it was an acciendent but if you look around a few stories play, as if it was for a gambling purpose an chaining up the tiger, so the bear could have his way.  BTW John helliots lion brutus, wasent the only lion that killed a polar bear alfread court had a male lion that killed an adult polar bear as well XD XD
-


> Basically the bear ended up making the tiger its bitch.


-
Did that tiger die??? NOPE! Try again douche bag, stop bringing up opinions an minor sprawls, because if your going to bring those kinda crap, than HOOOO BOY, talk about me flooding this thread with meaning less opinions an minor sprawls that favorved the tiger an lion XD.
-


> In regards to your examples, firstly, don?t give black bears as an example, because they are generally, much smaller, weaker, and less aggressive. Secondly, it has been made apparent that tigers do predate on bears in certain regions (I actually looked up some of your examples since you didn?t source them), but almost only when the bears are smaller in size. Tigers particularly go for females, and that actually makes sense. Also in these cases, you have to remember that bears are omnivores, with limited diets which generally don?t consist of tigers or wolves. Tigers on the other hand have a wider array of animals to choose from and in hunting always have the element of surprise.


-
Dont give black bears as an example? What are you talking about, black bears can be insanly big as well an there are accounts of them hitting the 1000 pound range, besides, what I implement is that its not impossible for say a lion to kill a polar bear ergo earlyer I presented another lion that killed a polar bear. But even wolverines who weigh a mere 40 - 80 pounds has accounts of killing polar bears as well an Im sure even a badger can rough up a bear/tiger or lion it cannot be set as a hypotethical cage match for any animal vs animal, because it will not favor in how the other uses its surroundings as leverage in the wild, ergo a black bear even sloth is capable of killing a lion or tiger.
-



> your lack of comprehension is dragging out this overblown conversation. I said Ussuri bears ? those prevalent in the Sikhote-Alin Biosphere where Dale attacked ? could not reach more than 760 pounds, not bears from all of Russia.


-
Dude Im getting sick of this shit, of you getting your info from lame ass wikipidia an fast google caches, when Ive seen reports, of ussuri brown bears past the 1,000 pound range with its articles attched of the bear, dam your lucky this com is out dated there so much shit I want post, thats on my other CP I guess all I can say is look around.
-


> 500 pounds is not the average weight of the lion. More like 420 pounds as National Geographic testified. The only subsets averaging a bit larger are those from the Ngorongoro Crater and delta. While here are stats for the average grizzly in one of the largest reserves:


-
I didnt catch that last part, was it "Reserve's"? XD As in property own land to exclude from poaching an controlled overall percentages of fatal bear fights amounts, who are dined with spoiled rotton accumilations of food sources. Average my ass! They are all healthy as shit do to the "RESERVE" Your average brown bear doesent even pass the 600 mark again we are speaking of rare numbers here, just like male african lions who do stay around the average of 500-550 as pretty big, yet you can check carnivora.com an ask the boldchamp to hit you up with over 30 lions, that were poached an weighed with there pictures with the hunter an hunted of those 30 all in the high 700s an mid 800s, guiness record HUH! The most basic full of shit claims when youtube holds over 20 videos of over 600 poundersXD.
-


> And those 900 pound fatass captive lions you are talking about were experiments to see how large a lion can get. They were neutered, and fed as much as possible. I feel sorry for the poor bastards


-
OH! Okay, so when you mention bears that pass the 1400 pound ranges, there mighty, fit an agile that need to feared by all, but when the lion's get big there fatass'es an you feel sorry for them, Nice! XD
-


> Come on stop wasting my time. I have long since become bored of your nonsense. Did not read that I said dale killed no adult MALE bears? Or do you not know the difference between male and female? I am not surprised either way. Buy as can be seen by my numbers, female bears are much smaller than males.


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Wasting your time HUH! I bring accounts not 4 accounts an the rest opiniations that's JACK SHIT!!! Only spamming an filling 1 hole thread with opinions an false data any site can say, lions max weight are at 450 pounds, then the next site the world record was 550 than another, theres no other lion bigger than 600, than another, than another, than another. Do me a favor next time you internet scavange, for your desperate data. Other than finding info from the first thing that pops up on google, look in reliable place's 2 females bears killed? How'd it go from 8 to 2. When indeed all you brought in your hole existance on this thread, only now matches that one account XD.
-


> Listen tough guy, you can?t expect me to take you seriously if you ask me why grizzlies don?t hunt elephants. Can you not get that elephants weigh tons more than bears? And bears don?t form a coalition with 10-15 other bears to hunt with them. Nor are bear/elephant territories as intertwined as elephant/lion territories. Geez it looks like I am talking to a 5th grader.


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AH, HAA! There it is folks. NO SHIT!!! "ERGO" In the wild bears with no human intervention, would be less superior to lions in survival!!! Due, to "UNITY" not hypethical 1 on 1s which are what? 
"A, HUMAN CONCEPT"... 5th grader? If that makes you feel better that you were owned by a 5th grader, than hey, more to the cause an efftect XD
-
Evolution never granted them exisitance. Yeah right, read the post I left before this one, they were around all along, you just didnt know XD.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 6, 2012)

fathertime said:


> -
> Dude, how many times do I have to repeat myself? ligers an tigons cannot be crossed directly with another liger of 50/50 lion/tiger, but they can be bread back an forth in the matter of crossing them with different percentages of there liger/tigon back grounds like lion x liger equals li-liger and a liger can then produce with its li-liger mate its been done already, if your so intrested in keep commenting back why not go look where I asked?


Only occasional ligers and only female ones, it's not enough to start a new species.


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## fathertime (Mar 7, 2012)

> jetwaterluffy
> Only occasional ligers and only female ones, it's not enough to start a new species.


-
Yeah, because patrick the liger was a female an impregnated another female li-liger XD. Patrick is a guy's name, you idiot an what? Are you around these events an witness the babies die or not even produce cubs after sex??? NO! Your just talking bullshit! Theres over 200 liger's alive in the world of today, in just captivety, thats even numbers with asiatic lions thats in the wild weirdo!
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Yet you know all about big cats XD, scientist an zooloigist find new speices every day. They just found a new sub-speices of clouded leopard last year, they thought it was the same cat with differernt color patterns, but when they tranqulized it for a better study, they found out its not the same because one has 1 inch teeth an the other has 3 inch teeth. Porportion to its body size being smaller than all the leopards but having the same size teeth as a siberian tiger makes him a modern day sabertooth tiger, but you knew that already right?
-
XD Stop acting like you know everything, an look in reliable places before commenting back, when you thought from the beggining they were sterile an fertile, XD there's millions of humans thats sterile too an cant have babies, should I say that all humans cant have babies? XD NO! So stop making shit up you know nothing about.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 7, 2012)

fathertime said:


> -
> Yeah, because patrick the liger was a female an impregnated another female li-liger XD. Patrick is a guy's name, you idiot an what? Are you around these events an witness the babies die or not even produce cubs after sex??? NO! Your just talking bullshit! Theres over 200 liger's alive in the world of today, in just captivety, thats even numbers with asiatic lions thats in the wild weirdo!
> -
> Yet you know all about big cats XD, scientist an zooloigist find new speices every day. They just found a new sub-speices of clouded leopard last year, they thought it was the same cat with differernt color patterns, but when they tranqulized it for a better study, they found out its not the same because one has 1 inch teeth an the other has 3 inch teeth. Porportion to its body size being smaller than all the leopards but having the same size teeth as a siberian tiger makes him a modern day sabertooth tiger, but you knew that already right?
> ...


Wait, this has happened before?
But even if it had, MOST are sterile, so again, not enough to produce a new species.
I agree I made a mistake though, and I will change my stance if you provide sufficant readable evidence.
All the sources I have seen say all male ligers are sterile.
Also, from looking around, it seems tigons are highly suseptable to cancer due to genetic difficulties. So ligers having low intellegence and brittle bones kind of ring true, although I haven't found this myself yet.


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## fathertime (Mar 7, 2012)

> Wait, this has happened before?
> But even if it had, MOST are sterile, so again, not enough to produce a new species.
> I agree I made a mistake though, and I will change my stance if you provide sufficant readable evidence.
> All the sources I have seen say all male ligers are sterile.
> Also, from looking around, it seems tigons are highly suseptable to cancer due to genetic difficulties. So ligers having low intellegence and brittle bones kind of ring true, although I haven't found this myself yet.


-
Its no biggy, like I said to convict my computer broke down, so Im using a 2003 CP, thats crappy as hell, I cant watch vids or look at updated sites an alot of other things. My other hard-disk for my cp that just broke down, has all the data I saved on there, with there articles an pictures of so many ligers that were documented, but the ones Ive mentioned arnt from my savings there just from messybeast.com. 
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I cant remeber exactly the urls or sites because one wrong dash or letter an the web finder wont recongnize that page. When I say Indians have saw them an documented it, it is in the means of giant stautes an part of many Islamic an Medrassas schools, In Samarkand is a giant stone temple made in the "1400s" an on the top of there temple are two ligers. Mentioned in Sunni an Shiite art that they are not tigers, but a cross of a lion an tiger [liger] also in singapore in the city of lions, have well documented tigers giving birth to cubs that grew to giant golden lion like cats that sported small manes which art resembles the ligers of today. 
-
These are the times of alexander the great as well, so it goes back farther than that, meaning ligers have been around for a long, long time. Its just rare re-accurring events, as long as lion an tiger co-exisit, there will be instances of forming liger an tigon cubs, its just in a matter of how they are recongnized threw media an folklore. Just like if I was to ask you what fish inhabbits my state (Hawaii's) reefs? Google will have some names, but it wont have all of them, meaning you will never know because you never came hear, hense you think ligers are a new mutant cross made by human insemination, when in fact in the "wild" they mated on there own accord, for thousands of years. Tons of living things do that everyday insects cross, plants fertilizes other plants an makes hybrid plants, animals cross, humans, everything in its own speice's can an are still crossing. 
-
Like I said before, many scientist belives 10s of thousands of years ago, lions an tigers were one cat, due to changing of enviorments they adapted to there surroundings an picked up different looks an traits of how there habitats shaped them. "Now" when a male lion an female tiger mates, its as if there geno is going backwards in the evolution state, allowing them to resemble american lions an sabertooth tigers sizes an before even them, before the continents craked an seperated there must have had an extremly big cat, it would make sense being those eras were almost in the prehistoric days an they would have needed there big size to contend with dinosuars, lol but I dont know, becuase theres nothing to clarify that lol.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 7, 2012)

fathertime said:


> -
> Its no biggy, like I said to convict my computer broke down, so Im using a 2003 CP, thats crappy as hell, I cant watch vids or look at updated sites an alot of other things. My other hard-disk for my cp that just broke down, has all the data I saved on there, with there articles an pictures of so many ligers that were documented, but the ones Ive mentioned arnt from my savings there just from messybeast.com.
> -
> I cant remeber exactly the urls or sites because one wrong dash or letter an the web finder wont recongnize that page. When I say Indians have saw them an documented it, it is in the means of giant stautes an part of many Islamic an Medrassas schools, In Samarkand is a giant stone temple made in the "1400s" an on the top of there temple are two ligers. Mentioned in Sunni an Shiite art that they are not tigers, but a cross of a lion an tiger [liger] also in singapore in the city of lions, have well documented tigers giving birth to cubs that grew to giant golden lion like cats that sported small manes which art resembles the ligers of today.
> ...


One or two wild ligers in history are a possiblity, but they will be sterile (except a few females) as well.
A long, long time ago, E-coli and humans were of the same species. I don't really see your point.


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## fathertime (Mar 7, 2012)

> Jetwaterluffy1
> One or two wild ligers in history are a possiblity, but they will be sterile (except a few females) as well.
> A long, long time ago, E-coli and humans were of the same species. I don't really see your point.


- 
Thats not quite what I ment, but now that you mentioned it, it might be possible. I heard that most of human's orginated from africa but thats just hear say, I dont know lol.
-
Im Hawaiian/german but I dought that our hawaiian isalnds were even hear for  2,000 years, Im on ohau but the big islands volcano Kila'wea is still active an growing the island the hawaiian islnds are still pretty young, so there's not to many ore type of resorces like gold or diomands at-least not to my knowledge. lol that sucks, though every ten years or so when there's giant wave's, the sand washes out to the sea on our beaches an what ever people droped in that ten year period surfaces, the last one I can remember was when I was 11, Im 24 now an still remember when the intire community of nanakuli was on the beach picking up thousands of dollars in rusty old coins, gold an silver rings, neklaces, bracelets, chains an other stuff. Wow that was crazy it was called nanakuli's gold rush lol.
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But other than that Hawaii is the ideal place to just kick it an live off the land swim, surf, dive for fish an hunt wild boar lol.
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AWWright! Just pop'ed open my first beer of good o budwiser... "CHEERS"


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## convict (Mar 9, 2012)

> So basically you want to say, its not suppoesed to be taken literally, yet you add in the bear anihilated the lion, when they stopped it as a draw? Ok buddie if you say so.



The expression isn't meant to be taken literally. If a bear could handle a lion as a cat would a rat, we wouldn't be having this pleasant conversation. Yet, the fact that he issued the statement indicates the bear completely overpowered the lion.



> I knew you eventually would've brought it up, hense everything you brang up below are exactly what I knew you were going to come back with XD.



As is a tendency of yours - you thought wrong.

And sure you knew I would bring all this up. I recall you daring me to only bring 4 sources.



> NO! He states thats out of the norm because it is against his expectations, meaning you bringing his opinon means JACK SHIT!



Sure bringing the opinions of multiple people who have been personally exposed to bears and lions their whole lives means bringing jack shit. If you say so. 



> Who the hell said it was impossible for a bear that can reach 2000 pounds cant kill a 500 pound lion, when you try to hint how pathitic



You do realize she is female right? And 2000 pound polar bears are among the largest of their kind. They average much smaller, and females are significantly smaller than males and less muscled. Yet it beat a male lion. Twice.



> Did that tiger die??? NOPE! Try again douche bag, stop bringing up opinions an minor sprawls, because if your going to bring those kinda crap, than HOOOO BOY, talk about me flooding this thread with meaning less opinions an minor sprawls that favorved the tiger an lion XD.



Sure. Minor sprawl. A tiger attacks a bear, a bear counterattacks and ends up wounding a tiger so much that it limps away in defeat. Consequently, the bear owns the submissive tiger and bosses it around whenever the tiger messes with it in the future. Yet that is an unacceptable account. Talk about grasping at straws to save face.



> Dont give black bears as an example? What are you talking about, black bears can be insanly big as well an there are accounts of them hitting the 1000 pound range,



Black bears are less muscular and on average much smaller, and less ferocious than their grizzly cousins. On average, a lion or tiger should beat an american black bear due to size advantage. Exceptions can occur, but we don't judge scenarios on exceptions; we judge them on the norm.



> dam your lucky this com is out dated there so much shit I want post, thats on my other CP I guess all I can say is look around.



Sure



> Average my ass! They are all healthy as shit do to the "RESERVE" Your average brown bear doesent even pass the 600 mark again we are speaking of rare numbers here,



I sourced my data of the bear unlike you. You are basically telling me to go to another online forum, where a member will supposedly tell me measurements that random ass poachers supposedly made of lions they killed. Yet, the officially recorded weight by two credible sources is 690 pounds. Thanks but I'll pass.



> OH! Okay, so when you mention bears that pass the 1400 pound ranges, there mighty, fit an agile that need to feared by all, but when the lion's get big there fatass'es an you feel sorry for them, Nice! XD



Except bears of such size can grow naturally in the wild, while your poor lions were neutered experiments. 



> then the next site the world record was 550 than another, theres no other lion bigger than 600, than another, than another, than another. Do me a favor next time you internet scavange, for your desperate data.



Funny, I recall sourcing my fights mostly from books, newspapers, and magazines, while most of your data comes from word of mouth. And sometimes you give me links like ligerworld.com and messybeast.com and then you blame me for internet scavenging. Learn what a credible source is first.



> AH, HAA! There it is folks. NO SHIT!!! "ERGO" In the wild bears with no human intervention, would be less superior to lions in survival!!! Due, to "UNITY" not hypethical 1 on 1s which are what?
> "A, HUMAN CONCEPT"... 5th grader? If that makes you feel better that you were owned by a 5th grader, than hey, more to the cause an efftect XD



You seem really smug and joyful over something completely irrelevant. Who is arguing that 15 lions combined can't take down bigger prey than a single bear? 1 on 1 fights are a human concept? Well guess what, this thread is about a 1 on 1 fight. Unity can go take a piss.



> Evolution never granted them exisitance. Yeah right, read the post I left before this one, they were around all along,



Individual ligers could be conceived extremely rarely in the past, but so intermittently that it was not enough to form a new line of feline which would evolve like lions and tigers have evolved. In this day and age, Indian lions have become so rare that in the wild there can't be ligers, hence all current ones are captive, and hence your claim that captive animals are more docile than wild animals just backfired against you.


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## fathertime (Mar 9, 2012)

> The expression isn't meant to be taken literally. If a bear could handle a lion as a cat would a rat, we wouldn't be having this pleasant conversation. Yet, the fact that he issued the statement indicates the bear completely overpowered the lion.


-
Still goin on about that? I told you I got it, but you never did apperantly. Why? You never stoped bringing it up. Beacuse it says the bear fought a horrible second fight, so you want me to belive that, the lion turned 180 an said to the bear, hey jump on my back XD No! He got outgamed in the second half, as 100 pound rottweilers get outgamed an shredded an mauled from 40 pound pitbulls.
-


> As is a tendency of yours - you thought wrong.
> And sure you knew I would bring all this up. I recall you daring me to only bring 4 sources.


-
I thought wrong? Everthing you brought up was mere dash to the nears't forum an pull up the basics which I can remember everything you brought up is mere word for word from crappy forums, so dont kid your self, it aint healthy XD.
-


> Sure bringing the opinions of multiple people who have been personally exposed to bears and lions their whole lives means bringing jack shit. If you say so.


-
XD Are you fucking kidding me, being up close as in trainers, who hasent witnessed one of there own killing another, means what? Shhhit, people who go to the zoo can feed them an yell at them, basically trainer's have an educated what, "GUESS"!!! Nothing more, when there already has been account(s) of a lion killing a polar bear, thats like if you think owning a dog, you can then be called a vetrinarian or a breeder or a dog gamer, man your desperate.
-


> You do realize she is female right? And 2000 pound polar bears are among the largest of their kind. They average much smaller, and females are significantly smaller than males and less muscled. Yet it beat a male lion. Twice.


-
Didint I agknowlede she was a female? Is that suppose change what she was, a fucking polar bear. I repeat, the worlds largest an strongest carnivore "Polar bear" but in your world, no matter what animal it is, females can never hold grounds, in what they are. XD Besides, I give leverage to that debate now an then, about the polar being classed as female, but I dont want to shatter your world, but Ive seen over 10 debates on Velox the polar bear an none were brought up, in article form of the article it self saying velox was a female an these debates were on steady grounds of pictures of the article, so thats letting you know, that I hope your "certian" Velox was a female because if I feel the need to dig around a little more an find out it was a male lol you know who Im going to drill "You" an drill you hard XD.
-
Besides you sounding all proud an relifed, that you presented equal accounts of polar bears matching the kill number back, let me shatter your world again, there were "three" accounts of lions killing adult polar bears, 
1. In 1904, New york times, John helliot  
2 In 1947, Fritz W. shulttz picture, Alfred courts
3.In 1955, My life with cats book, Alfred courts
-
Shazzam! Thats 3 to 2. Do I have more? Perhaps! *evil laugh* XD.
-


> Sure. Minor sprawl. A tiger attacks a bear, a bear counterattacks and ends up wounding a tiger so much that it limps away in defeat. Consequently, the bear owns the submissive tiger and bosses it around whenever the tiger messes with it in the future. Yet that is an unacceptable account. Talk about grasping at straws to save face.


-
XD Save face, Really? You still didnt match what I brought an you think Im the one that should be worrying XD XD Okay, XD
-


> Thanks but I'll pass.


-
There you have it folks, pure bliss if not pure stupity! Here I give you a vid of not one but two lions pasing the 900 pound mark an you think in the wild its not possible because guiness record, who are just random people recording random events an want me to belive they contribute to the world wide knowledge an word "Only"? XD XD Go ahead an live your entire life by guiness XD Holy crap your stupid! There's no word "Consealing" in a poachers vocabulary, for the whole reason why the majroity of all poachers kill big game animals, besides selling organs, teeth an fur they just want to brag that they have the biggest kill, idiot! An according to you, no lion in the wild can come inbetween 600 pounds an 950 pounds an please do tell where it states those 950 pounders were for an experiment? I could play your game, an tell you to bring real accounts of wild 1500 pound bear's, with real pics an wordings of the poacher or hunter but if you do bring them, then I'll just say ah thanks, but I'll pass XD XD. 
-


> Sure


-
lol!
-


> I sourced my data of the bear unlike you. You are basically telling me to go to another online forum, where a member will supposedly tell me measurements that random ass poachers supposedly made of lions they killed. Yet, the officially recorded weight by two credible sources is 690 pounds. Thanks but I'll pass.


-
Its not really my problem its yours, why? Because apperantly you dont know the difference between "Reserve" an the "Wild".
-


> Funny, I recall sourcing my fights mostly from books, newspapers, and magazines, while most of your data comes from word of mouth. And sometimes you give me links like ligerworld.com and messybeast.com and then you blame me for internet scavenging. Learn what a credible source is first.


-
Really? Your the only one on the planet with books, news an magazine's XD XD Oh how I do enjoy how much I smashed you already even without my data on me other Pc XD.
-


> You seem really smug and joyful over something completely irrelevant. Who is arguing that 15 lions combined can't take down bigger prey than a single bear? 1 on 1 fights are a human concept? Well guess what, this thread is about a 1 on 1 fight. Unity can go take a piss.


-
0_0What?0_0  This fight is about bears vs lions an tigers? I thought it was a Liger XD XD who I killed your so call repeating of youtube knowledge, of bone density being stronger than lions, with that link I left on my older post, showing there bones are bigger than lions not densar dumb fuck, both having pretty much the same ratios in there bones of 1.29 take a yander to that site, where they show lions back limbs are even denser'er than alaskan brown bears.  An what? cant hack it, that a lion has three accounts of killing the worlds biggest an strongest bear, with three accounts so far XD No pride is needed for a brown bear but that wont exclude, how not me,  but how "lions feel" about a stupid ass bear that tresspasses on there terf, that holds a pride of 15 maniac's that will dissasemble winnie the poo XD


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Naruto is going to have a fit when he sees this thread, that much is certain.


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## convict (Mar 12, 2012)

> Naruto is going to have a fit when he sees this thread, that much is certain.



You're right. This thread is filled with TLR, to the point where no one else is giving a shit. However, believe me this is still small time compared to the conversations of real animal enthusiasts in their forums.

To tone it down and restrict my obvious sarcasm, I will address the only point in the last post which I feel is worthwhile. After all, the majority of that post is completely personal, which tends to happen when conversations get so large.

So in regards to the site that you posted about lions having similar overall density as bears; it turns out, the data is exactly what I needed to prove my point. The listed values (unit g/cm^3) of a lion's Radius/Ulna and a bear's was proven to be 1.38. While initially surprising, I later realized that this made perfect sense, especially after exploring a different place (which uses data from the same source so don't worry) and finding out that a rhino's Radius/Ulna density happened to be 1.27 using the same units. Now try to be impartial here - do you really think the bones of a  _rhino_, which support all that mass and musculature is actually weaker than a lion's? No. The actual bone structure ( ie ratios of protein, collagen, and other minerals) is definitely more powerful than a lion's, however, we have to remember that _density is inversely proportional to size_ (the units g/cm^3 should be an obvious indicator if you don't take my word for it). Therefore, even though the bones if a rhino are unequivocally stronger, the overall density is slightly less because rhinos are so damn big. The same principle applies with the bear; even you admit that the bear specimens were larger, thus equivalent density means stronger bones. 

And note, this would negatively affect the liger's case. Why? Because genetically, the ligers inherited the genes, TFs, and modification factors of its parents. Thus, the ratios of a liger's skeleton (and shape) will be the same as that of a lion or tiger's. The only difference is size, because of the growth gene expressed. And since size is inversely proportional to density,  a liger's bones will be unnaturally brittle.



> I killed your so call repeating of youtube knowledge



You can even argue that the Earth is flat. When given photographic evidence contrary to your claim, you can ignore it still and claim that you are killing the debate. No one can stop you from claiming that you are winning. Doesn't make it true though.

And I never mentioned Youtube; if you recall it was you who sourced it.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Mar 12, 2012)

This is still going on?


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 12, 2012)

convict said:


> You're right. This thread is filled with TLR, to the point where no one else is giving a shit. However, believe me this is still small time compared to the conversations of real animal enthusiasts in their forums.


I was referring to how fathertime was insulting pretty much everyone in the thread. You know how naruto loves insults.


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## fathertime (Mar 12, 2012)

> So in regards to the site that you posted about lions having similar overall density as bears; it turns out, the data is exactly what I needed to prove my point. The listed values (unit g/cm^3) of a lion's Radius/Ulna and a bear's was proven to be 1.38. While initially surprising, I later realized that this made perfect sense, especially after exploring a different place (which uses data from the same source so don't worry) and finding out that a rhino's Radius/Ulna density happened to be 1.27 using the same units. Now try to be impartial here - do you really think the bones of a  rhino, which support all that mass and musculature is actually weaker than a lion's?


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Exactly what you needed, how so? I just presented facts in its simplest form, "Numbers". Not that your a bioloigist or chemist or anything, realitive in making those type of estimations an that would under stand reasoning for harder structures, for even the biggest of bones from bull elephants, hold but a fraction stronger than somthing thats 10,000 pounds lighter, not 10 times bigger so 10 times stronger. Ergo there bones density are densar not just for weight, but what there biologically made to do, plus although that same page does state lions have incredibaly high bone density shown smaking a big dog to death in a single bash, it still would diplict in its capababilties in doing so, breaking it down to, tons of other quanitys in its bone biology, just look at a flea's density to an ants. There are ants like fire ants at least 4 to 8 times bigger than a flea, yet try an hit a flea with a paper roll or your hand they are densar for a reason there biology of living the way they live. Although fleas an ants dont have bones, there is alot of same gestering in its same cause and effect similartys.
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But that was just one resource of bone density which you still didnt disprove, Im sure all there numbers are not the same because of age, food intake, health an sub speices are not known of those study's, so I wouldent make bold claims as if you thought the numbers of how dense they were, were intriplicated when they were only minor numbers away, implementing of course there bigger an by logical forms of just man pushing man the bigger one always tends to have the advantage but in the cases of there body, they are both put together differntly and will alter output power differently.
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And again you stating that bears won in the roman days, when you can simply go to thread 3 on your posting of, memoirs of celopatra, it says lions mostly won, so I dont know exactly where you saw that bears invaribaly won, it gestures you have tons of reliable accounts of "Romans" stating that bears never lost, which if you'd be so kind, Id like you to post them...
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> And note, this would negatively affect the liger's case. Why? Because genetically, the ligers inherited the genes, TFs, and modification factors of its parents. Thus, the ratios of a liger's skeleton (and shape) will be the same as that of a lion or tiger's. The only difference is size, because of the growth gene expressed. And since size is inversely proportional to density,  a liger's bones will be unnaturally brittle.


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Okay this is going no where fast with you, in you just wanting them so desperatly to have more brittler bones to aid your debate, besides the fact that your knowlegde on ligers is ridiclulisly below "ZERO" and making up all these bullshit assumptions an only repeating hear say an bias talk, I have some typos of densar compared to bigger on hear but please dont make me quote everything that you have said threw out this debate, because when I put them together, all it will show is your a trigger happy googler debater with a wise attitude, when ligers "Perform" just as acrobatically as tigers, with out one news letter from there owner's, mentioning joint or fatigue problems caused by bad arthritus an similar problems that come from having weak bones. Which Id garentee you'll only be quoting from youtube, not people that live with them all day everyday, this is going to be the second time I told you, spare your self the chit chat. Im pretty dam sure that your just making shit up as you go along, why? Because you havent brung any hard evidence that liger bones are less densar, when there acrobatical abilty an power contradicts.. or better yet, shouts out your full of shit.
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> You can even argue that the Earth is flat. When given photographic evidence contrary to your claim, you can ignore it still and claim that you are killing the debate. No one can stop you from claiming that you are winning. Doesn't make it true though.


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So is this you being mad, that I brought hard evidence an accounts of lions killing polar bears an you cant match it, awww I just hear a sore loser, that logic favors a male lion over a full grown polar bear, ergo a grizzly doesn't have the exact formula needed to beat the lion being the exact attributes you cling too, were maxed out like size an power, by pitting him with a polar bear the worlds biggest an strongest carnivore, more giving it a 50/50 with any type of bear just on 1 on 1s, not even needing a pride, which wont matter in the wild anyway because lions in india have the ubed most rarist accounts pf bears killing lions yet do in schollor fact lions has bears as a small percentage of there diet's in india. Oh and to keep my wheel spinning,  the louis roth story is another account, why? Because the dates of those polar bears being killed are different, hense different account, so whats that tally us in? 4 to 2 lion kills polar bear the biggest an strongest carnivore on the planet 1 on 1 .
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> Jetwaterluffy1
> I was referring to how fathertime was insulting pretty much everyone in the thread. You know how naruto loves insults.


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It doesnt really show me insulting every one, just the people that insult me or give an retarded answer, who'd Id think would disreve to be then called retarded if you gave an retarded answer from the start. Like they say, if you dont know anything on the matter then dont apply anything at all, implementing if your asking a question then yeah, there is no wrong question ever, but dont talk just on hear say because that's how shit starts, like youtube with tiger fans. Hey, I like tigers as well but I dont go saying bullshit like in 1906 tigers killed 60 lions in a zoo, which are used alot on youtube, who I later checked on jackjacksonj .coms web site from raging youtubers saying that there were 300 accounts on his site, who I personally read all 360 an LMAO, out of all 360 I only found 30 that were real seperate accounts around 65% of his site was opinions an repeats of the same accounts cleverly moved around, to look as if they were different accounts 25% were bullshit changed wordings which I mixed an matched where he changed it from. Only leaving around 25-30 that had legit resources of tigers killing lions threw out history, when one man clyde beatty had equal amounts of accounts of lions killing tigers with hard evidence, thats not even including all the ones I can name. So yeah that's how bullshit starts like convict saying they are retarded an some one agknowleding that they should have named hercules forrest gumb early in this thread, only hear say but bullshit is every where Id rather myself an others be true and honest, even if it means going against what you like but I never ment to hurt anyone's feelings in the way I type, so if I did say anything insulting to anyone than Im sorry, hey in some ways we are animals as well an like leonidus said in 300 *Theres no reason why we cant be civil* XD


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 12, 2012)

fathertime said:


> -
> It doesnt really show me insulting every one, just the people that insult me or give an retarded answer, who'd Id think would disreve to be then called retarded if you gave an retarded answer from the start. Like they say, if you dont know anything on the matter then dont apply anything at all, implementing if your asking a question then yeah, there is no wrong question ever, but dont talk just on hear say because that's how shit starts, like youtube with tiger fans. Hey, I like tigers as well but I dont go saying bullshit like in 1906 tigers killed 60 lions in a zoo, which are used alot on youtube, who I later checked on jackjacksonj .coms web site from raging youtubers saying that there were 300 accounts on his site, who I personally read all 360 an LMAO, out of all 360 I only found 30 that were real seperate accounts around 65% of his site was opinions an repeats of the same accounts cleverly moved around, to look as if they were different accounts 25% were bullshit changed wordings which I mixed an matched where he changed it from. Only leaving around 25-30 that had legit resources of tigers killing lions threw out history, when one man clyde beatty had equal amounts of accounts of lions killing tigers with hard evidence, thats not even including all the ones I can name. So yeah that's how bullshit starts like convict saying they are retarded an some one agknowleding that they should have named hercules forrest gumb early in this thread, only hear say but bullshit is every where Id rather myself an others be true and honest, even if it means going against what you like but I never ment to hurt anyone's feelings in the way I type, so if I did say anything insulting to anyone than Im sorry, hey in some ways we are animals as well an like leonidus said in 300 *Theres no reason why we cant be civil* XD



I honestly don't care, personally, but naruto banned someone for calling him a nitwit, so he may go in mega- rage mode when he sees this thread.


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## fathertime (Mar 12, 2012)

> I honestly don't care, personally, but naruto banned someone for calling him a nitwit, so he may go in mega- rage mode when he sees this thread.


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Well if I get band then I get baned. I couldent give a rats ass there are litterly 1,000s of forums an I've been banned for beating mods an makers of there forums to a pulp.
(The lounge)= mod, named cid, debated Link vs Cloud. Despite, keep locking the thread because even his elite debaters were getting crushed from me an a few others, he simply had no other choice in the only way keeping the title winner from link, was to band me an a few others. (Factpile)= 20 oposing superman fano's, begged admin to boot me. After reviewing the thread being a superman fano as well, band me so supes could have the win over goku an stated simply, who ever sided with me an a few others would get banned as well XD, same with Superhero match up, Zelda universe, an many others, Ive been booted from alot because of not my grammar but how much I drill the truth. I wont kiss ass, just so I dont get canned. It gives me more power knowing exactly why I got banned for, them being bias an not like-ing the fact that I crushed them in there debates, people never like losing espeacially, when they are in the hidden state or high chair, they think they become gods an say anything they want huh!
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If it came down to returning the bite, people can make other accounts to join back in, to get whats on there minds out, despite they are the maker an wants to band you XD


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 13, 2012)

fathertime said:


> -
> Well if I get band then I get baned. I couldent give a rats ass there are litterly 1,000s of forums an I've been banned for beating mods an makers of there forums to a pulp.
> (The lounge)= mod, named cid, debated Link vs Cloud. Despite, keep locking the thread because even his elite debaters were getting crushed from me an a few others, he simply had no other choice in the only way keeping the title winner from link, was to band me an a few others. (Factpile)= 20 oposing superman fano's, begged admin to boot me. After reviewing the thread being a superman fano as well, band me so supes could have the win over goku an stated simply, who ever sided with me an a few others would get banned as well XD, same with Superhero match up, Zelda universe, an many others, Ive been booted from alot because of not my grammar but how much I drill the truth. I wont kiss ass, just so I dont get canned. It gives me more power knowing exactly why I got banned for, them being bias an not like-ing the fact that I crushed them in there debates, people never like losing espeacially, when they are in the hidden state or high chair, they think they become gods an say anything they want huh!
> -
> If it came down to returning the bite, people can make other accounts to join back in, to get whats on there minds out, despite they are the maker an wants to band you XD


Lol.
Most versions of supes can beat goku, though, VM or PM me about it.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 13, 2012)

Although in wouldn't get worried about it. Naruto hasn't been in the battledome for weeks now, and after this conversation, he'll look silly if he bans you.


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## Artful Lurker (Mar 13, 2012)

lol heard two ppl debate this a few day ago, anyway I'll be back with answer ........


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Mar 14, 2012)

fathertime said:


> -
> lol, yeah supes of course can put up a fight, but he aint winning thats for sure. whens the last time you looked into a high powered telescope or just images of the hubbles deep space view? Its flooded with red suns in just seeing view, red sun in the movie, toon an comics zaps supes powers in seconds, even superman prime one million charged for 86 thousand years will lose all that charging in a second an then bye bye lending powers an resserecting powers.
> -
> Goku still has his bag of senzu beans if your going to start it on a planet with a yellow sun, but hears the differnce. When supes fight's he plete's energy, he then dashes to a yellow sun to recharge, then he goes back to full potential, like 100 life bar pletes to 20 then goes near or in a sun to 100 again, goku's sayin traits are 100 pletes to 20 eats a senzu, then he's 200 an its then repeated, but when supes dashes to a yellow sun goku would only pick up supes ki rises an when closer to a red sun his ki plumets.
> ...


I've PM'd you a response.


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## fathertime (Apr 2, 2012)

So I guess, the Liger take's the win. Since lion's, tiger's, an even puma's have killed the biggest of bear's, its a no brainer to have a liger who superior to all other cat's, have the win over bear's who loses more often, then the other way around.
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Hey jetwatertuffy, care to have a lion vs tiger debate???


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Apr 2, 2012)

fathertime said:


> So I guess, the Liger take's the win. Since lion's, tiger's, an even puma's have killed the biggest of bear's, its a no brainer to have a liger who superior to all other cat's, have the win over bear's who loses more often, then the other way around.


Not really. Bears are much stonger and faster than lions, pumas killing bears are the excecption rather than the rule, and lions should beat ligers due to not being a messed up mutent with rubbish bone density.


> Hey jetwatertuffy, care to have a lion vs tiger debate???


I honestly have no idea who would win between a lion and a tiger, it probably depends on which type of lion or tiger you are talking about, but if you want to debate it with other people, make a thread about it.


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## Urouge (Apr 2, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Not really. Bears are much stonger and faster than lions, pumas killing bears are the excecption rather than the rule, and lions should beat ligers due to not being a messed up mutent with rubbish bone density.
> 
> I honestly have no idea who would win between a lion and a tiger, it probably depends on which type of lion or tiger you are talking about, but if you want to debate it with other people, make a thread about it.



the lion nearly always beat the tiger. there's even records of a lions killing siberian tigers. the tiger is a hunter while the lion is a fighter.


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