# Sin (FFX) vs Sephiroth (FF7)



## Shooting burst stream (Nov 30, 2010)

Alright I want to settle this because everywhere I look I see varying opinions and I haven't seen this fight on here so I though I'd make it. This is ACC Sephiroth vs Sin at full power. Supernova is banned but everything else is fair game. Who wins?


----------



## Bugs Life (Nov 30, 2010)

Going with Sephiroth cause he's awesome.


----------



## zenieth (Nov 30, 2010)

you'd be wrong on two accounts


----------



## Kurou (Nov 30, 2010)

1)Going with Sephiroth
2)Sephiroth being awesome.


----------



## Devil Kings (Nov 30, 2010)

Sin shows Sephiroth being emo's not cool. Then he rapes him just for the hell of it.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 30, 2010)

So the guy who is raging mad for one scene, sad for one other scene, and creepily calm for every other scene, is "emo" or overly whiny.

Who knew.


----------



## Keollyn (Nov 30, 2010)

In after Anti.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

Seph becomes intangiable, goes inside SIN, kills the thing of which the name I forgot that is inside SIN, SIN dies


----------



## TeenRyu (Dec 1, 2010)

Sin has been reincarnated in another manga by a follower; Sin wins for being just that much more epic


----------



## Shooting burst stream (Dec 1, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> Seph becomes intangiable, goes inside SIN, kills the thing of which the name I forgot that is inside SIN, SIN dies



Just one problem to get to Yu Yevon he would first have to get through Final aeon Jecht and with his durability (which should be at least equal to Sin's considering he beat him) and his petrification beam attack I don't see Seph beating him as his speed won't help him. It's like a rabbit with a sword fighting a tank with a bigger sword


----------



## SHM (Dec 1, 2010)

Doesn't Sin have a natural magic-field/barrier around itself? I don't see Sephiroth phasing through it, and that means he would have to fight Sin directly. But without prep-time(or PIS and/or CIS on his side), Sephiroth wouldn't be able to beat him IMO.


----------



## Baroxio (Dec 1, 2010)

Seriously people? Sephiroth was just some pretty boy with mommy issues an an unhealthy interest in some weakass Shinra soldier that defeated him twice (Cloud). 

Sin brings devestation to villages and cities just by being near. He has an anti-magic shield which tanked a gigantic laser AND destroyed it. His Sin scales spawn monsters of incredible strength (and number for that matter) that Sephiroth couldn't possibly fight through, and Sin can both swim and fly. To say nothing of Giga-Gravirton, the strongest attack in ANY Final Fantasy game seen to date. (Insta-Game Over if used PERIOD) 

For that matter, Supernova is an incredibly weak attack that had a changed animation in the American version simply to make the attack look cooler while simultaneously making the damn story meaningless. Why worry about a damn Meteor if Sephiroth can make the Sun explode with a randomn comet that takes out like 5 planets (multiple times!)?


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

lol Sephiroth would tear through the SinSpawn with contemptuous ease.

Also Sin is easily the most retarded looking FF "villain" ever. Giant whale thing that swims then later on can fly...they clearly ran out of ideas.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

I dont recall any barrier around SIN. All that tidus and co had to do is blast a little hole in him to get in. And he then fights jecht which with intangibility, illusion, and the best meele in the FF franchise easily disposes of jecht, who got beat by people weak like tidus and co......a lesser form of sephiroth required all of avalanche to fight it, and had to be killed spiritually too. But really seph could just envolve the area with neg-lifestream and watch SIN dissolve to death. He easily takes this with his higher skill e versatility.

Dont let your dislike of seph blind you to the power of the character.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> I dont recall any barrier around SIN. All that tidus and co had to do is blast a little hole in him to get in. And he then fights jecht which with intangibility, illusion, and the best meele in the FF franchise easily disposes of jecht, who got beat by people weak like tidus and co......a lesser form of sephiroth required all of avalanche to fight it, and had to be killed spiritually too. But really seph could just envolve the area with neg-lifestream and watch SIN dissolve to death. He easily takes this with his higher skill e versatility.
> 
> Dont let your dislike of seph blind you to the power of the character.



Sin has a barrier, and they had to nerf Sin just to even injure it in the first place.

And it may have took all of Avalanche to beat Sephy but it took all of the Guardians, the Al Bhed w/ their Airship and people all over Spira singing the Hymn of the Faith to slow it down just to do anything.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Sin has a barrier, and they had to nerf Sin just to even injure it in the first place.
> 
> And it may have took all of Avalanche to beat Sephy but it took all of the Guardians, the Al Bhed w/ their Airship and people all over Spira singing the Hymn of the Faith to slow it down just to do anything.



Could you speify what nerf you are talking about plz? I just remember them hitting a fin on sin to get inside, and seph has much more firepower than tidu`s team. Furthermore, what is sin going to do to him?? He`ll either be intagiable, or inside his barrier.

Ok then seph breaks the barrier, goes inside SIN and kills it.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

Then there's Giga graviton which literally fucks over everything FF7 has ever shown short of Omega and Chaos.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

If the giant slow ass whale thing ever gets a chance to do it when fighting the hypersonic speedstar.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Then there's Giga graviton which literally fucks over everything FF7 has ever shown short of Omega and Chaos.



Both seph or cloud would defeat either omega or chaos. Just sayin........

And seph would either be in his barrier(which took citybuster+ to defeat) or intangiable. Besides, seph uld be glued to SIN, what`s that ray going to do to him?


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoPSzYcpoMc&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

yeah sephiroth has zero chance in hell.


edit: Fuck no they can't. Chaos is the single strongest character in FF7


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

Cloud could never defeat Omega or Chaos.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> Could you speify what nerf you are talking about plz? I just remember them hitting a fin on sin to get inside, and seph has much more firepower than tidu`s team. Furthermore, what is sin going to do to him?? He`ll either be intagiable, or inside his barrier.
> 
> Ok then seph breaks the barrier, goes inside SIN and kills it.



Where are you getting Seph being intangible from? Didn't exactly help from him getting killed. And Seph's barrier from the North Cave is a one time thing and really isn't counted again.

And so what Seph has more power than Tidus' party, doesn't really change much if he can't crack Sin's barrier and armor. And meteor is practically useless since it takes forever to fall while Sin can Graviton his ass to oblivion

The nerf I'm talking about is the Hymn of the Faith. Jecht was the one in control of Sin and the Hymn was used to calm Sin down and lower it's defenses and stop it long enough for Tidus and Co. to do anything. Pierce through the armor, beat through Seymour, Jecht, and Yu Yevon just to finish him off.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Cloud could never defeat Omega or Chaos.



Yes he could.........all they have is meele, which sephs better at. Their power has to be contained in human vessels such as vincent e weiss. Besides....omnislash V6 would kill them, and seph is stronger by creators admission.

@basch71: Seph has all of jenova`s powers, he became intagiable once and passed straight through a ship`s hull, also he couldnt activate it against cloud cause he was immobilized by his first slash in the omnislash. The barrier......it`s still remains the fact e made one, but if you wish i`ll disregard it. I believe he can crack through the hull, then all he has to do is kill jecht.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> Yes he could.........all they have is meele, which sephs better at. Their power has to be coitained in human vessels such as vincent e weiss. Besides....omnislash V6 would kill them, and seph is stronger by creators admission.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

You do know that Vincent>>>>>>>>the rest of the party right?


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm pretty sure Seph even at his strongest can't put down Sin permanantly, so Sin.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

Not even sure what this here means...........but i suppose it`s an insult, so 

@Zenieth: Cloud`s still stronger than chaos vince. Hence why e had to tackle somene weaker than seph.

well....seems the consensus is that seph cant break through to SIN, so.....i guess he loses?


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

That "nothing stronger than him as stated by the creators" is a misunderstanding. Me and this forum don't exactly get along but I hope they don't mind if I use their sources.
Link removed

This site translates all the various FF7 garbage that comes out. They tackle and debunk the internet myth the creators saY Sephiroth is stronger than anyone in FF7.

And I'm pretty sure Chaos and Omega have energy attacks.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

No he isn't. Vincent holds back so much it's hilarious.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> Not even sure what this here means...........but i suppose it`s an insult, so



That's my reaction to what you wrote.

As much as Cloud can get the job done, there's no way in hell that he can beat guys like Omega and Chaos. He's not even top dog in his own verse to the point the series bashes you over the head reminding you of that. He even let VINCENT deal with Omega and the rest of Deepground since he was the only one capable of doing so. Cloud and gang were just Vincent's cheering section in Dirge at that point.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> That "nothing stronger than him as stated by the creators" is a misunderstanding. Me and this forum don't exactly get along but I hope they don't mind if I use their sources.
> Link removed
> 
> This site translates all the various FF7 garbage that comes out. They tackle and debunk the internet myth the creators saY Sephiroth is stronger than anyone in FF7.
> ...



Chaos vince uses his gun to shoot some lasers, and omega weiss uses his katana and some other attacks as a machine that arent exactly energy blasts. He has some missiles and bombs and whatnot.

And im also retty sure the tranlation of the quote was that seph was the strongest in FF7, i will look at the link you provided though.


----------



## SHM (Dec 1, 2010)

Sephiroth said:


> I'm pretty sure Seph even at his strongest can't put down Sin *permanantly*, so Sin.



Well, to be fair, Sin can't put down Sephiroth _permanently_ either(J-cells + Reunion = Seph's revival).



			
				Alucardemi said:
			
		

> well....seems the consensus is that seph cant break through to SIN, so.....i guess he loses?



Yes, he loses.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> @basch71: Seph has all of jenova`s powers, he became intagiable once and passed straight through a ship`s hull, also he couldnt activate it against cloud cause he was immobilized by his first slash in the omnislash. The barrier......it`s still remains the fact e made one, but if you wish i`ll disregard it. I believe he can crack through the hull, then all he has to do is kill jecht.



That wasn't Sephiroth, that was Jenova taking his form throughout the entire game and each encounter, Jenova was dropping a piece of herself. The real Sephiroth was in the North Cave frozen till Cloud brought the Black Materia (like an idiot) and revived him.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

basch71 said:


> That's my reaction to what you wrote.
> 
> As much as Cloud can get the job done, there's no way in hell that he can beat guys like Omega and Chaos. He's not even top dog in his own verse to the point the series bashes you over the head reminding you of that. He even let VINCENT deal with Omega and the rest of Deepground since he was the only one capable of doing so. Cloud and gang were just Vincent's cheering section in Dirge at that point.



Yes he can.....all that they showed me was some combat at the end of the game, they were warpspeeding an such....something sephiroth himself has already done in CC, and considering the fight in ACC was slowed down(so you could see it) it`s not really impressive. Also there`s a reason vicent stopped everyone from helping cloud in ACC:

"When everyone wants to support Cloud, Vincent commands them to put their trust in Cloud's hands. Not wanting to interfere, he believes that only Cloud has the power to destroy the curse from the past." - Link removed

Also please...man they werent gonna make cloud interfere in the storyline of vincent`s game..........what would be the point in making cloud kill the bad guy in vince`s game? Cloud is only weaker than seph in FF7, thats what they want to bash into your skull "cloud is weaker than sephcloud is weaker than sephcloud is weaker than sephcloud is weaker than seph" which is entierly true.

@above post: 

And since seph has literally become jenova at the end of FF7 and gained all her powers that point is entierly moot......

And cloud was being controlled to give the materia....so i dunno why you think he`s an idiot.

Not thet i really matters since people say that seph cant get through the barrier.


----------



## SHM (Dec 1, 2010)

basch71 said:


> That wasn't Sephiroth, that was Jenova taking his form throughout the entire game and each encounter, Jenova was dropping a piece of herself. The real Sephiroth was in the North Cave frozen till Cloud brought the Black Materia (like an idiot) and revived him.



Sephiroth and Jenova are one and the same dude. Sephiroth himself is just a spirit using the J-cells to form a human-like body for him to inhabit.

After Nibelheim, you cannot treat Sephiroth and Jenova as two different characters anymore(if Jenova could even be considered a "character" in the first place).


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

SHM said:


> Sephiroth and Jenova are one and the same dude. Sephiroth himself is just a spirit using the J-cells to form a human-like body for him to inhabit.
> 
> After Nibelheim, you cannot treat Sephiroth and Jenova as two different characters anymore(if Jenova could even be considered a "character" in the first place).



Yeah you could, Sephiroth was frozen in a block of ice for 3/4 of the game while Jenova was in a jar and transported to Shinra HQ, got out, killed several floors of staff + the president and left to do various shit. Although it was heavily implied that Seph has control over Jenova, true. Hence baiting Cloud for various parts of the game. But it was still Jenova nonetheless since pieces are always left of her.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

Using "It's so and so's game therefore they nerfed so and so" doesn't cut it. Cloud had no viable reason for not taking on Deepground outside of the fact that you know, they were stronger than him.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

Then there's the whole Rosso fighting Cloud to a standstill thing.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Using "It's so and so's game therefore they nerfed so and so" doesn't cut it. Cloud had no viable reason for not taking on Deepground outside of the fact that you know, they were stronger than him.





Except for the fact it is vincent`s game. And that cloud has a family andisnt going to go do huge endeavours, and that cloud`s only assingment was to destroy the mako reactors. I rememb a scene where he pretty much said he`d let vincent deal with it, being hojo the mastermind and so on. And the fact vince admits he dosent have the power o tackle seph, and that seph says the fate of the planet is up to cloud, even though he himslef has already seen chaos in battle at the end of 7 and is stronger than it. And e fact that rosso ran away because she lost....i discussed this at full in the other thread, and anything coming out of that is assumption, since the creators said she ran away.........and how she was defeaed by base vince. And im pretty sure th quote is that there is nothng stronger or above sephiroth......also they have anther quote saying they dont even wan a villain stronger than seph.

But i really dont have the time to discussthis at the moment so respond if you want and ill respond back to you in a couple of hours>.>


----------



## SHM (Dec 1, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Yeah you could, Sephiroth was frozen in a block of ice for 3/4 of the game while Jenova was in a jar and transported to Shinra HQ, got out, killed several floors of staff + the president and left to do various shit. Although it was heavily implied that Seph has control over Jenova, true. Hence baiting Cloud for various parts of the game. But it was still Jenova nonetheless since pieces are always left of her.



No, Sephiroth was actually traveling the Lifestream gaining it's knowledge, and later, using J-cells(forming Jenova's headless body) to bring him the Black-Materia and to control the Clones, while using S-cells and J-cells(acquired from the Reunion itself) to form another body for him.
The real Sephiroth was the one Cloud beat at the end of the game, after killing Safer. That was Sephiroth's spirit, the _real_ Sephiroth, the one controling all J-cells and S-cells allong the story. Every other time Sephiroth appeared, it was just him using a different body.

And are you kidding me? "Heavily implied"?! It was _directly stated_ by many canon sources(the original game included) that he was controling Jenova.


The point is... Sephiroth's current body is Jenova's body, therefore he can turn intangible too. It's pretty simple.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Then there's the whole Rosso fighting Cloud to a standstill thing.



Then there's the fact it was all off screen and Cloud wasn't even the slightest bit hurt afterward.

In short, it was a non-fight and you could completely forget about it and there'd be no change to the story.

By feats, Cloud is way out of Rosso's league.

Heck, he'd beat all of Deepground except Weiss and his brother.

Also the original game never made it clear whether Sephiroth was controlling Jenova or vice versa. That's why people thought Seph was her bitch until the Ultimania came about.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

On the note of Sephiroth's abilities compared to Jenova's, the FFVII Timeline has this to say.
Link removed
"October

· Sephiroth, Zack, and the other Nibelheim investigation team members are officially announced as being killed in action.

· Sephiroth’s body drifts to the Northern Crater. It absorbs knowledge from the Lifestream, *and with the power of the head of Jenova and his own will, Sephiroth begins to create a new body.*"

So her cells + his will made his new body. So if he was made of just her cells like in Advent Children, I guess he could do the same again.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Then there's the fact it was all off screen and Cloud wasn't even the slightest bit hurt afterward.
> 
> In short, it was a non-fight and you could completely forget about it and there'd be no change to the story.
> 
> ...



Hey Zae, i read the stuff you linked me to but the quote still pertain that ther is nothing *stronger* than him(seph). That`s why it`s separated into two sentences, one pertaining to his will and one pertaning to him and his existance as a whole. And im also pretty sure there`s a statement where the creats said they didnt want to create someone stronger than seph, as to not disappoint the fans(haha seph fanbase>creator`s will)

What do you think of this subject?? Im curious as to you opinion>_>

Nah He`d kick the crap outta omega weiss also : P He fought ACC seph in a much more impressive battle, shoudnt be too hard to beat omega weiss or chaos vince>.>

Not nero though as we dont know if cloud has plot protection against it like good ol` vince does.

Between...the creators said rosso ran away....she would be grossly outclassed by either feats or powerscaling:

"*Cloud fights off* an assassin of DeepGround's Tsviets, Rosso, ferociously." - Link removed

so she probably ran away after a few blows......and cloud was with his incomplete sword


----------



## SHM (Dec 1, 2010)

At the Whirlwind Maze, Hojo blatantly states that Sephiroth was controling Jenova.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

SHM said:


> No, Sephiroth was actually traveling the Lifestream gaining it's knowledge, and later, using J-cells(forming Jenova's headless body) to bring him the Black-Materia and to control the Clones, while using S-cells and J-cells(acquired from the Reunion itself) to form another body for him.



He traveled the stream for years and ended up at North Cave like this





> The real Sephiroth was the one Cloud beat at the end of the game, after killing Safer. That was Sephiroth's spirit, the real Sephiroth, the one controling all J-cells and S-cells allong the story. Every other time Sephiroth appeared, it was just him using a different body.



The real Sephiroth was the one the party killed. The battle of the center of the mind was Cloud fighting off his influence.



> And are you kidding me? "Heavily implied"?! It was directly stated by many canon sources(the original game included) that he was controling Jenova.



Ultimania said he was, the game was implying so.



> he point is... Sephiroth's current body is Jenova's body, therefore he can turn intangible too. It's pretty simple.



Seph's current body was supposed to be his remnants, but so much for them. And again, Seph=/=Jenova. He has her cells and shit, but not one and the same. He was controlling her.



> At the Whirlwind Maze, Hojo blatantly states that Sephiroth was controling Jenova.



Show it.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

> All manifestations of Sephiroth seen throughout the game ? excluding flashback sequences and his real body at the Northern Crater and Planet Core ? are Jenova's entire body under his control, shapeshifted to take on his appearance. The Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide, littered with information directly from the game's creators, stated that Sephiroth "was not content to become a mere puppet and assumed possession of her mind and will." Despite some initial debate over Jenova's influence over Sephiroth and vice versa, this confirms that Sephiroth had taken control of Jenova's body to the extent that, in essence, he was Jenova. Sephiroth appears through Jenova at regular intervals, until the party confronts him at the Northern Crater. At this time, Sephiroth has absorbed most of Jenova's remaining cells, so he appears to the party by way of astral projection. It is also at this time that Sephiroth's true body is seen preserved in crystallized Mako. In the game's two penultimate battles, Sephiroth takes on two other forms as detailed below. Cloud's final confrontation with Sephiroth is purely mental/spiritual and takes place in the Lifestream, a final battle of wills. Sephiroth is defeated, and his soul dissolves back into the Lifestream.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

> Hojo: You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion. "I have been waiting for the Reunion to start. Five years have passed, and now the Clones have begun to return.
> 
> I thought the clones would begin to gather at Midgar where Jenova is stored. But my predictions were not entirely correct. Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building.
> But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. *You see it was all Sephiroth's doing.* Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants to manipulate the Clones himself.
> ...



Still, I always interpreted this as meaning Jenova was still manipulating Sephiroth. He could do what it could not since he was still alive and Jenova was a headless corpse that was sealed away for many years.

Plus, it makes Sephiroth's radical change in personality sensible. He didn't just become a power hungry generic villain for no reason. He was being mind controlled, or at least influenced, by Jenova.

Alas, no. It's just a major failure in characterization.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Still, I always interpreted this as meaning Jenova was still manipulating Sephiroth. He could do what it could not since he was still alive and Jenova was a headless corpse that was sealed away for many years.
> 
> Plus, it makes Sephiroth's radical change in personality sensible. He didn't just become a power hungry generic villain for no reason. He was being mind controlled, or at least influenced, by Jenova.
> 
> Alas, no. It's just a major failure in characterization.



Going from a battle hardened stoic character to a omnicidal maniac at a drop of a hat.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

Well I have no problem with his initial reaction. I don't think anyone would take the news of "you were made in a lab because we felt like it" well.

The issue here is, if Jenova isn't controlling him whatsoever, then the Sephiroth during the actual game has randomly decided to become a god.
Because...that's what a lot of RPG villains want I guess.

So he went from misguided lunatic to "I  want to be all powerful" with no explanation.


----------



## SHM (Dec 1, 2010)

basch71 said:


> He traveled the stream for years and ended up at North Cave like this



No, his body didn't end at the Crater, it dissolved in the Lifestream, and then it was _reconstructed_ in the Crater:



			
				FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania - Sephiroth Character Profile p.76-81 said:
			
		

> As for Sephiroth’s true self, when he fell inside the Nibel Mako Reactor *it dissolved* in the Lifestream, but over the course of five years his body *reconstructed itself in the Northern Crater* where the Lifestream concentrates as he bided his time for his revival. Before long, he was able to call Cloud, the Copies, and Jenova’s body together to unify in the Reunion, and use them to obtain the black materia to summon Meteor. After that, it was the complete body that Cloud and company would fight against.





> The real Sephiroth was the one the party killed. The battle of the center of the mind was Cloud fighting off his influence.



No, the battle _in the Lifestream_ was to free Holy, still being hold by Sephiroth's will.

And you are helping my own argument. If you think he was influencing Cloud _even after his body was destroyed_, then you agree he doesn't need a physical body to control the J-cells(using them to influence Cloud). 
Therefore, the _real_ Sephiroth is just a spirit influencing the cells from the afterlife.



> Seph's current body was supposed to be his remnants, but so much for them. And again, Seph=/=Jenova. He has her cells and shit, but not one and the same. He was controlling her.



The remnants were spiritual-bodies, not physical ones. He used the J-cells in the box to form a body for him.
And again: Sephiroth is a spirit able to control every J-cell, even from the afterlife(that's how he caused Geostigma). And he used those cells to form a body for him, both in FFVII and ACC. 
For all intends and purposes, the physical Sephiroth *is* Jenova.



> Ultimania said he was, the game was implying so.
> 
> Show it.



Hojo 
         "I have been waiting for the Reunion to start. Five years have 
passed, and now the Clones have begun to return." 

(Another.) 

Hojo 
         "I thought the clones would begin to gather at Midgar where 
Jenova is stored." 
         "But my predictions were not entirely correct. _Jenova itself 
began to move away from the Shinra Building._" 

(The scene fades in to show the materia tree. Cloud stands upside down on 
one of the roots, by the huge blue stone in the center.) 

Hojo 
         "But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see _it 
was all Sephiroth's doing._" 
         "Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the 
Lifestream; he wants to maniplate the Clones himself."


----------



## jazz189 (Dec 1, 2010)

An explanation on Geostigma

"The Stigma. It's a symptom of alien matter infesting the body. The body tries to eliminate it, and overcompensates. Inside our bodies is a current like the Lifestream. That current is what fights off any malevolent intruders." 
    —Vincent Valentine


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

> No, his body didn't end at the Crater, it dissolved in the Lifestream, and then it was reconstructed in the Crater:



That doesn't really change what I said.



> No, the battle in the Lifestream was to free Holy, still being hold by Sephiroth's will.



Because the real Sephiroth was doing the work. Hence the party fought him physically. The battle afterhand was just the influence.



> And you are helping my own argument. If you think he was influencing Cloud even after his body was destroyed, then you agree he doesn't need a physical body to control the J-cells(using them to influence Cloud).
> Therefore, the real Sephiroth is just a spirit influencing the cells from the afterlife.



Are we having the same debate? I'm saying his real body is shown at North Cave and up, and he's controlling Jenova, not whether or not he's spiritually active or not with or without a body. There's one Sephiroth regardless.



> The remnants were spiritual-bodies, not physical ones.



...what? 



> He used the J-cells in the box to form a body for him.



OK



> And again: Sephiroth is a spirit able to control every J-cell, even from the afterlife(that's how he caused Geostigma). And he used those cells to form a body for him, both in FFVII and ACC.



OK



> For all intends and purposes, the physical Sephiroth is Jenova.



Umm...no, they're still separate entities. Jenova being destroyed before Cloud and co. proceeded to fight Sephiroth. He has her cells but he and her are not one and the same body. So it's just plain ol' Sephiroth. The being known as Jenova was destroyed in the end.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 1, 2010)

And it has occurred to me. Why in the blue hell am I talking about Sephiroth? I don't even like the guy.


----------



## Rene (Dec 1, 2010)

In short, Sin stomps this battle.

Terra Graviton and boom goes the dynamite.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

Rene said:


> In short, Sin stomps this battle.
> 
> Terra Graviton and boom goes the dynamite.



Not that im disareeing since people tell me seph has no way of going inside sin.........but what the hell is SIN going to do to seph when he`s going to be flying at hypersonic speeds near the thing......how the hell is that beam going to hit seph?? That whale is slow as hell, and eventually it`s barrier would probably cave in.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

Seph is a very tiny man, that blast has a very large area of effect, he does not know how that blast works, he eats a Terra Graviton.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Seph is a very tiny man, that blast has a very large area of effect, he does not know how that blast works, he eats a Terra Graviton.



But the that would depend on the distance they begin their battle, and it takes time to charge....not to mention he would be flying at hypersonic speeds towards the beast...and if he gets close enough that blast is rendered useless. Seriously this match looks like a tie, if seph cant break the barrier, SIN can neither hurt seph because of speed and intangibility(as mentioned earlier in the thread seph beame jenova himself, and himself is made purely of jenova cells and is not human anymore).


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

Look how far away that ship is. That blast by passed that ship without anyone noticing. It's massively hypersonic attack when launched, and the closer Seph gets, the more likely he gets the business, not like he has anything that's going to readily bother Sin before that is shot.


----------



## jazz189 (Dec 1, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Look how far away that ship is. That blast by passed that ship without anyone noticing. It's massively hypersonic attack when launched, and the closer Seph gets, the more likely he gets the business, not like he has anything that's going to readily bother Sin before that is shot.



Wasn't that also only after they had slowed Sin down with the hymn of the fayth?


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Look how far away that ship is. That blast by passed that ship without anyone noticing. It's massively hypersonic attack when launched, and the closer Seph gets, the more likely he gets the business, not like he has anything that's going to readily bother Sin before that is shot.



What instance are you referring to....because there are many...and i havent played FFX in a long time. And if i recall he can only aim the beam forward, seph could just dodge it`s radius is not that big for someone who is hypersonic. Seph can still become intangiable you know. Plus he can use he neg-lifestream to clod the guy`s vision until he gets close.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

I just want to point out that we have no quantifiable feats of durability for Sin's barrier.

It tanked some random technobabble weapon of unknown power and even that was pushing the barrier back a bit. 

In short, Sephiroth has greater feats of destruction than the machina so who's to say Sin's barrier can hold him back?


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

boy what you talking about it's radius isn't big.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoPSzYcpoMc&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

notice the hurricane it's making, notice the debris it's pulling in from the fucking moon.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

zenieth said:


> boy what you talking about it's radius isn't big.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoPSzYcpoMc&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> notice the hurricane it's making, notice the debris it's pulling in from the fucking moon.



Yes, also notice the stupendous charging time, gving more than enough room for seph o run up to SIN. And the readiusof the blast is not that big after it i launched. As you can  see its comparable to the ocean splitting, which would be some hundreds of meters apart. Seriously i think you people a overhyping SIN fo some reason.

Actually that blast is ifficult to understand....is it some balls tha launch out of sins`s mouth or is it the ray that stroke idus and co.......tell me in that vid exactly what would be hitting seph.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

Also @ anti. I'm pretty sure that tower had weapons equatable to the main ships major weapons. The same ship that with secondary weapons completely destroyed home. So yeah.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

Wait, what? The airship in FFX is completely unique. There's absolutely no proof at all any other Al Bhed weapon is capable of nuke-level destruction.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

How is it unique? The weapons are shaped near exactly the same and they were both repaired by the Al bhed, they weren't created by them.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Also @ anti. I'm pretty sure that tower had weapons equatable to the main ships major weapons. The same ship that with secondary weapons completely destroyed home. So yeah.



 Seph could summon the negative lifestream to try and corrode it.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

cause that equates to a bomb that completely and utterly engulfs a city, cuase you know Sephiroth has totally done something equatable ever.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 1, 2010)

zenieth said:


> How is it unique? The weapons are shaped near exactly the same and they were both repaired by the Al bhed, they weren't created by them.



The airship is a unique piece of equipment in FFX. There's nothing at all like it anywhere. 

If you want to compare weaponry, look at the weapons used against Sin in Operation Mi'hen. Aside from the beam thing, they used frickin' cannons.

If they had missiles, moreover missiles capable of destroying entire cities, I'm sure they would have used them.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

zenieth said:


> cause that equates to a bomb that completely and utterly engulfs a city, cuase you know Sephiroth has totally done something equatable ever.



When did the airshipin FFX they used ever equate to that kind of power? A different airship that attacked the city to save yuna had a nuke, not the one who attacked SIN. Im gonna find the video of them breaking through SIN`s hull so we can debate this more properly, hang on.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 1, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> When did the airshipin FFX they used ever equate to that kind of power? A different airship that attacked the city to save yuna had a nuke, not the one who attacked SIN. Im gonna find the video of them breaking through SIN`s hull so we can debate this more properly, hang on.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C93I4_EkATk[/YOUTUBE]


you'd think so.


----------



## jazz189 (Dec 1, 2010)

The airship is completely unique in FFX considering that its the only one of its kind you ever see in the game - sans sequel. The airship that they used to save Yuna was the same airship they used to fight SIN its called the Fahrenheit. 

The technology held by the Spirans is probably all that you see when you fought against the guards in Bevelle.

Also didn't it take Sephiroth a while to corrupt the lifestream in FFVII? Even the meteor took a while to even hit. It takes Sin less time to destroy the earth than it takes for Sephiroth to corrupt it.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 1, 2010)

jazz189 said:


> The airship is completely unique in FFX considering that its the only one of its kind you ever see in the game - sans sequel. The airship that they used to save Yuna was the same airship they used to fight SIN its called the Fahrenheit.
> 
> The technology held by the Spirans is probably all that you see when you fought against the guards in Bevelle.
> 
> Also didn't it take Sephiroth a while to corrupt the lifestream in FFVII? Even the meteor took a while to even hit. It takes Sin less time to destroy the earth than it takes for Sephiroth to corrupt it.



No seph never had a chance to dominate the lifestream because avalanche defeated him beforehand.....and his spirit was somewhat weakened after his battle with cloud. However he dosent need to corrupt anything anymore, since he created his own lifestream. And if he wanted to he`d already dominated the planet and used it as a spaceship, however he wanted his body back(because he wanted to kill cloud in person), which required all his ploy in the movie.

This is reinforced by the creators themselves in the reunion files......seph only came back for the purpose of killing cloud....the planet`s alredy nothing in comparison to him>.>

"The only reason we had him appear in this film was for vengeance. To think he was defeated by cloud, a rookie soldier at the time, made him all the more hell-bent on gettig his revenge. Sephiroth is so focused on Cloud that he really dosen`t care about what is going on around him..." - Nomura, Reunion Files, Page 63


----------



## jazz189 (Dec 2, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> No seph never had a chance to dominate the lifestream because avalanche defeated him beforehand.....and his spirit was somewhat weakened after his battle with cloud. However he dosent need to corrupt anything anymore, since he created his own lifestream. And if he wanted to he`d already dominated the planet and used it as a spaceship, however he wanted his body back(because he wanted to kill cloud in person), which required all his ploy in the movie.
> 
> This is reinforced by the creators themselves in the reunion files......seph only came back for the purpose of killing cloud....the planet`s alredy nothing in comparison to him>.>
> 
> "The only reason we had him appear in this film was for vengeance. To think he was defeated by cloud, a rookie soldier at the time, made him all the more hell-bent on gettig his revenge. Sephiroth is so focused on Cloud that he really dosen`t care about what is going on around him..." - Nomura, Reunion Files, Page 63



but how long did it take for Sephiroth to do that? Also isn't Sephroth's lifestream only applicable to Gaia?


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 2, 2010)

jazz189 said:


> but how long did it take for Sephiroth to do that? Also isn't Sephroth's lifestream only applicable to Gaia?



For seph to create his lifestream?? Not sure mate, it`s never specified in the ultimania or reunion files, but we know by ACC he has it actively circling the planet, he could dominate the planet if he so wished if he was at his former strenght as he had contact with minerva`s lifestream it`s self, however he wanted a body more than anything, and that only damaged his spirit more after cloud defeated him in ACC, which is probably why in DoC the panet is still alive. His lifestream i would imagine circles the planet he is as part of his will(since we saw the thing it`s self being summoned to the battlefield in ACC, giving him power and energy from the living beings it touches(geostigma)), so after he used the planet as a spaceship i would imagine he would transfer it into the other planet he found.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

Who cares?

Sephiroth is still not a lifewiper. Threatening humanity with a plague like Geostigma is no match compared to Sin's feats.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 2, 2010)

Sin's not a lifewiper either.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 2, 2010)

He/she/it's a hell of a lot closer though.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Sin's not a lifewiper either.



My ass he isn't. Did you see that attack? The range and how it was visible from space?

Sin could wipe all life from the planet if given free reign from Yu Yevon. Sephiroth's attacks arn't even close to that scale.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Dec 2, 2010)

Sins wins on account of being a better character


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 2, 2010)

Seph can still planetbust with meteor and the due prep, and while he is one of the villains who lacks raw power, he surpasses them all in versatility, physicall and skill.

This is a tie, if seph cant break through the barrier, SIN is not killing him either due to regen, intangibility, and speed.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 2, 2010)

Cause you know people are going to wait for meteor and that intangibility didn't work so well with all the other times he lost.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 2, 2010)

zenieth said:


> Cause you know people are going to wait for meteor and that intangibility didn't work so well with all the other times he lost.



I said "with the given prep time"......and we dont know how long he can maintain it, but it`s fairly easy to assume he cant do it forever especially when fighting against people like chaos vincent and cloud plus all of avalanche. And in ACC he wasnt using his hax, plus he was imoblized after he got hit by the omnislash.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> Seph can still planetbust with meteor and the due prep, and while he is one of the villains who lacks raw power, he surpasses them all in versatility, physicall and skill.
> 
> This is a tie, if seph cant break through the barrier, SIN is not killing him either due to regen, intangibility, and speed.



Learn to Final Fantasy VII.

Meteor can't bust the planet. Try finding out what Sephiroth's plan was with Meteor and no, it wasn't to destroy the planet.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 2, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Learn to Final Fantasy VII.
> 
> Meteor can't bust the planet. Try finding out what Sephiroth's plan was with Meteor and no, it wasn't to destroy the planet.



the creators disagree.

"It is the Ultimate Destructive Magic; it calls to planets [-- meaning
meteor-like rocks --] drifting in outer space and pulls them down to the
Planet. It was one of the magicks given to the Ancients, *but due to it
harnessing enough power to destroy the Planet itself*, the Ancients feared it
could prove dangerous and sealed it away by their own hands." - 

Yes it can planetbust, seph just had other uses for the planet.

Why dont you take your own advice and learn a bit more before jumping to conclusions?


----------



## Rene (Dec 2, 2010)

In short Sin Terra Gravitons Sephiroth's face off.

What's Sephiroth's best destructive feat? Skyscraper slicing?

Wyverns like Evrea were capable of tanking the same missiles that destroyed the Al Bhed home.

Also, the Al bheds fixed up the airship they found under sea and they have access to multiple machinas from the old times. (do realise that in the past, they made Vegnagun which was specifically made for being able to bring Sin down.)

Sin's durability with his shield is easily City level+ and he has multiple island to small country level destructive capacity. Also in the Terra Graviton video you can clearly see Sin still has his shield up while charging his attack.

Sephiroth won't be breaking into Sin's body nor will he survive a Terra Graviton that's fired right at him.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 2, 2010)

Rene said:


> In short Sin Terra Gravitons Sephiroth's face off.
> 
> What's Sephiroth's best destructive feat? Skyscraper slicing?
> 
> ...



Hard to say his best destrution feat with all his power since he held back against cloud and only used close quarters combat....with a sword i`d say this is his best destruction feat:

[YOUTUBE]7s1VyV3OP4Q[/YOUTUBE]

4:21-4:3 3 - he deslodges the top of a massive skysraper and then destroys it with a sword slash.

And seph has TK, intangibility, superior speed, regen, a lifestream backing him up with physical power and stamina, more skill, actuall meele power....he just rapes SIN in versatiliy.

Like i said, if he cant break the shield he wont be winning(unless he could just phase through it or absorb sin`s energy like he was going to do with the lifestream), but neither will SIN....his attacks takes high charging time, and is not wide enough to hit seph(who is high hypersonic)......besides he can still turn intangiable.

It`s most likely a draw.

PS: Besides...did you know FFX and FF7 are like...stated to have happened in the same world, but with gigantic time differences???

?Producer Kitase decided that they couldn?t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII." - Nojima

so seph wins??

Naw.........he dosent, the quote dosent exactly apply to FFX world. But still


----------



## zenieth (Dec 2, 2010)

FF10 is ff7 world now huh? despite the huge difference in geology, the lack of massive crater, the lack of any note of anything relating to lifestream. That is essentially the sngle most bullshit statement to try and back anything up at all.

Also Anti already debunked that Sephiroth is the strongest in ff7 noise.

Fact of the matter is skyscraper level isn't going to do shit to Sin. Hell sin has a fucking ruined town on its back.


edit: Also seph isn't highly hypersonic. He's hypersonic and only that.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 2, 2010)

Rene said:


> I
> Wyverns like Evrea were capable of tanking the same missiles that destroyed the Al Bhed home.



I just want to point out this is not a certainty. I myself thought this since it was great for powerscaling but the guys on SpaceBattles brought up some valid reasons for why I could be totally wrong.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 2, 2010)

zenieth said:


> FF10 is ff7 world now huh? despite the huge difference in geology, the lack of massive crater, the lack of any note of anything relating to lifestream. That is essentially the sngle most bullshit statement to try and back anything up at all.
> 
> Also Anti already debunked that Sephiroth is the strongest in ff7 noise.
> 
> ...



Hey i think all that FF7, and FFX worlds is utter bullshit...but it has been stated in the ultimania.......so take it up the the creators......also they said FFX happned first, i think.

Zae linked me to a site where they were discussing the quote....and it never disproved the quote its self, which still says there is noting stronger than him. And also Nojima said kitase wouldnt create someone stronger than seph.

Zack was able to dodge machine gun fire from irtually all sides in LO and the ending of CC, seph ould fight genesis and angea with only a short interval between attacks.....and he blitzed and outclassed zack........i pretty sure that puts CC seph at hypersonic+.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 2, 2010)

I repeat that makes as much sense as fuck nothing worth of fucking sense because that totally destroys a lot of lore by combining them. What the shit happened to the far plane or all that super machina if X happened first and what the damn well hell happened to the lifa stream or weapons if 7 happened first. Cause Sin would ride heavy on their shit to deal with radar.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> the creators disagree.
> 
> "It is the Ultimate Destructive Magic; it calls to planets [-- meaning
> meteor-like rocks --] drifting in outer space and pulls them down to the
> ...



Then your source is obviously wrong or poorly translated.

Sephiroth himself states that Meteor is supposed to wound the planet to within an inch of death so it would start its healing process and he could absorb all that energy.

If he destroys the planet, he can't absorb the energy.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 2, 2010)

FFX happened first.

Shinra from X-2 figured out how to use the Farplane as a power source kinda. His distant descendants figured out even more and launched everyone into space where they eventually came to find FFVII's planet.

It's totally fucking stupid and I just pretend no one ever said it.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 2, 2010)

You'd think people would fucking note shit like that.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> FFX happened first.
> 
> Shinra from X-2 figured out how to use the Farplane as a power source kinda. His distant descendants figured out even more and launched everyone into space where they eventually came to find FFVII's planet.
> 
> It's totally fucking stupid and I just pretend no one ever said it.



That's impossible since Shinra's space program is even worse than ours.
Note that we have yet to colonize other planets.

Final Fantasy having shitty writing? Who would have thunk it?


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 2, 2010)

zenieth said:


> I repeat that makes as much sense as fuck nothing worth of fucking sense because that totally destroys a lot of lore by combining them. What the shit happened to the far plane or all that super machina if X happened first and what the damn well hell happened to the lifa stream or weapons if 7 happened first. Cause Sin would ride heavy on their shit to deal with radar.



I agree i think it`s completely it is a buttload of crap, and borders on WTF writting, but........

 - In the commentarys on FF X-2 ultimania

And there`s even more written in that link trying to sustain this bullshit. There`s a guy with the shinra name in FFX, and some other allusions. 

I guess...he could mean some of the tecnicalities are conected, maybe not really the same world. Still it`s a intresting debate topic.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 2, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> That's impossible since Shinra's space program is even worse than ours.
> Note that we have yet to colonize other planets.
> 
> Final Fantasy having shitty writing? Who would have thunk it?



Hey hey hey. This is an out-of-universe retcon done by an idiotic creator. Don't blame the games for this.
Some FFs have very nice writing.

Also don't take my word for it.



> Nojima
> "Actually, it does. After quitting the Gullwings, Shinra received enormous
> financial support from Rin, and began trying to use Vegnagun to siphon Mako Energy from the Farplane. But, he is unable to complete the system for utilizing this energy in his generation, and in the future, when traveling to distant planets becomes possible, the Shin-Ra Company is founded on another world, or something like that....... That would happen about 1000 years after this story, I think."



As I said, just pretend you didn't read anything.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 2, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Then your source is obviously wrong or poorly translated.
> 
> Sephiroth himself states that Meteor is supposed to wound the planet to within an inch of death so it would start its healing process and he could absorb all that energy.
> 
> If he destroys the planet, he can't absorb the energy.



No that`s a direct copy of an english text from the ultimania, and even if it`s a traslation, it`s not badly done....the source is a good translator.

It`s directly stated it harnesses the power to destroy the planet. Seph can probably choose how much power the meteor will exert, it`s size, speed and whanot(really, im just assuming here there can be thosands of factors the materia can inflence). Just because he didn`t want to destroy the planet(because he has other uses for it), does not mean he can`t. Regadless it`s moot to discuss this, as the creators hemselves already stated the power it can harness.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Hey hey hey. This is an out-of-universe retcon done by an idiotic creator. Don't blame the games for this.
> Some FFs have very nice writing.
> 
> Also don't take my word for it.
> ...



FF1-6 and FF9 are decent.

7,8,10,11,12,13 and 14 are horrible.

14 is actually so horrible that Square-Enix removed the option to check on their player totals so people would stop laughing at the fact that only 22K people are playing it.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> No that`s a direct copy of an english text from the ultimania, and even if it`s a traslation, it`s not badly done....the source is a good translator.
> 
> It`s directly stated it can harness the power to destroy the planet. Seph can probably choose how much power the meteor will exert, it`s size, speed and whanot(really, im just assuming here there can be tosands of factors the materia can inflence). Just because he didn`t want to destroy the planet(because he has other uses for it), does not mean he can`t. Regadless it`s moot to discuss this, as the creators hemselves already stated the power it can harness.



Except it contradicts the plot of the story.

I don't care bout shitty retcons or shitty databooks written by bad writers. The game says this and there's no reason to doubt it. Occam's razor.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 2, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> FF1-6 and FF9 are decent.
> 
> 7,8,10,11,12,13 and 14 are horrible.
> 
> 14 is actually so horrible that Square-Enix removed the option to check on their player totals so people would stop laughing at the fact that only 22K people are playing it.



Have you actually played FF1 or 2? They're kinda awful. Buggy gameplay, no real story to speak of, it's just a pain in the ass to bother with either of them.

And I liked 7, 10 and 12. They all have their share of flaws but no one in hell would I say any of them is worse than FF1-3.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 2, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> Except it contradicts the plot of the story.
> 
> I don't care bout shitty retcons or shitty databooks written by bad writers. The game says this and there's no reason to doubt it. Occam's razor.



All that seph said was what he was going to use meteor for, not what it was  fully capable of, meaning it`s power is not limted by the game. He could planetbust with enough time there`s really not much else to it, there`s official statements of it`s power.

12 was the best.......followed by 7, 6, 8 IMO


----------



## zenieth (Dec 2, 2010)

12 is a good game and had a lot of ambition but executive fuckery really did a number on it.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Dec 2, 2010)

making vaan the main character being the best example


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Have you actually played FF1 or 2? They're kinda awful. Buggy gameplay, no real story to speak of, it's just a pain in the ass to bother with either of them.
> 
> And I liked 7, 10 and 12. They all have their share of flaws but no one in hell would I say any of them is worse than FF1-3.


FF1 had a bare bones story.
FF2 had a good story... what the hell are you talking about?  The big bad even went to hell and took it over. Now that's a real villain. Now of this Sephiroth emo pretty boy crap.
FF3 was kind of meh but at least it wasn't poorly written like 7 and 10.

Also, 10 and 12 have the worst VA lineup ever. Talentless hacks all around with good actors (Auron and Balthier) being few and sparse.
Plot holes, bad writing, horrible characterization. Basically everything we can expect from Post FF6 except for 9.



Alucardemi said:


> All that seph said was what he was going to use meteor for, not what it was  fully capable of, meaning it`s power is not limted by the game. He could planetbust with enough time there`s really not much else to it, there`s official statements of it`s power.
> 
> 12 was the best.......followed by 7, 6, 8 IMO


The official statement is what Sephiroth said in game.

Everything else is secondary canon and inadmissable.



zenieth said:


> 12 is a good game and had a lot of ambition but executive fuckery really did a number on it.


More like Square-Enix being cheap fucks as usual. Look at that VA list. The only one of any note voiced Reddas.

Now look at the VA list for Magna Carta II. A list VA's all around.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 2, 2010)

good va's don't make sucky characters less sucky. Vaan would still of been fucking terrible no matter who voiced him.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

zenieth said:


> good va's don't make sucky characters less sucky. Vaan would still of been fucking terrible no matter who voiced him.



Good VA's make or break a JRPG.

Part of the reason Persona is so succesful is the high tier VA cast.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 2, 2010)

you're really over simplifying things rika.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Dec 2, 2010)

Square-Enix could afford a guy like Will Smith, someone who gets paid $20 million per movie

Think about that


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

zenieth said:


> you're really over simplifying things rika.



I said part of the reason.

Whether you want to admit or not, in a JRPG, these are the voices that you'll be listening to for a good 20 hours and if they grate you, the game will get on your nerves.

Another great example is Eternal Sonata. A lovely cast of VA. Especially the guy who did Chopin. Now look up the VA: 

An anime and VG veteran VA.

But I will give you that a badly cast VA is useless. Like casting Yuri freaking Lowenthal as Cecil and Johnny Young Bosch as Firion in Dissidia. Then again, this is because Final Fantasy has so many bland, poorly characterized characters that even the guy who voiced Simon in the TTGL dub couldn't make the poorly written dialogue compelling.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 2, 2010)

Uh...excuse me.

Tidus, the main character of FFX, is voiced by James Arnold Taylor. Ya know, Obi-Wan from the Clone Wars cartoon. He is not a a talentless hack.

FFXIi had Phil LaMarr, Simon Templeman and a few others though admittedly they got stuck with minor roles. Of the main cast, Ashe was voiced by Kari Wahlgren who you might not know but I recognized as Pellegri from Xenosaga. Xenosaga having possibly the best dub in gaming history, that's not so bad.

Oh and how could I forget. FFX had Rikku voiced by Tara fucking Strong. She has to be the best English voice-actress around for her sheer range. Just take a look at her wikipedia page.


I can tell you, I've heard several of those voices and they sound nothing alike. She's amazing.

Also what's wrong with casting Yuri as Cecil? This wouldn't be the first time he's played a character who struggles between light and dark.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Uh...excuse me.
> 
> Tidus, the main character of FFX, is voiced by James Arnold Taylor. Ya know, Obi-Wan from the Clone Wars cartoon. He is not a a talentless hack.


One good performance doesn't excuse an awful one. Tidus was one of the most poorly voiced characters I have ever heard in a game.



> FFXIi had Phil LaMarr, Simon Templeman and a few others though admittedly they got stuck with minor roles. Of the main cast, Ashe was voiced by Kari Wahlgren who you might not know but I recognized as Pellegri from Xenosaga. Xenosaga having possibly the best dub in gaming history, that's not so bad.


Like I said, few and far apart. Also, Pellegri? Xenosaga's voice talent was clearly centered around Crispin Freeman's badass performance as Albedo.


> Oh and how could I forget. FFX had Rikku voiced by Tara fucking Strong. She has to be the best English voice-actress around for her sheer range. Just take a look at her wikipedia page.


Minor role, the focus was never on her and it was a waste of her talent.



> Also what's wrong with casting Yuri as Cecil? This wouldn't be the first time he's played a character who struggles between light and dark.


Because Yuri is at his best when voicing bro characters or hotblooded characters. Those are the roles he's best known for. It's a complete misuse of the man's talent to put him a subdued character like Cecil.

Let me counter with something.

Magna Carta II. 

This game doesn't have a fraction of Square-Enix's resources and yet, look at the voice talent.

You have the main character voiced by Johnny Young Bosch, a massive veteran. Female lead by Michelle Ruff who has a roll list that laughs at most people actors (), Kate Higgins (another veteran), Jameson Pierce, Yuri Lowenthal (this time voicing a hotblooded douchebag fire mage) and even Steve Blum.

Look at the antagonists for a second, the first one you meet is voiced by none other than Crispin Freeman himself.

Even this game, with a fraction of SE's resources, was able to not only get the best videogame and anime VA's on the market but was able to even complete the VG voice-acting trifecta of Bosch, Freeman and Lowenthal and use them in roles that are suited to their character.

Why can't Square-Enix do this?


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 2, 2010)

JAT has had several good roles and I blame his poor performance as Tidus on the director. Too many people forget that an actor can be seriously hindered by poor direction.
FFX definitely had that.

Also while of course I'd love to hear Basch, Lowenthal and Freeman all the time, that's the problem. One reason English dubs are so criticized is because they have such a pathetically small talent pool to choose from compared to the Japanese.

Perhaps Square are just being cheap assholes but it's still a good thing in a way. They're giving chances and roles to lesser known people while most anime these days just re-use the same five guys over and over and over. (Those guys also tend to just use the same voice over and over)

But yes, I do agree Square could do a lot better. Metal Gear Solid for instance doesn't choose from the dub anime standard but instead goes a little deeper and finds great actors like John Cygan, Richard Doyle and so-on. Square should try that.


----------



## Hoshino Rika (Dec 2, 2010)

I don't really mind them using the tried and true veterans if it means I can get high quality dubbing.

Japan has the same number of VA high tiers as the English market but most people don't notice because a lot of Japanese people sound a lot for Westerners.You only notice it when you have a really recognizable voice like Shuichi Ikeda (Char Aznable), Hiyama or Wakamoto.

Try and looking up the anime's Seki or Suzumura has done. You'll be surprised how much they overlap because Japan has the same problem. It's a niche market that quickly rewards the talented and popular but also reuses them ad nausseum.

Not to mention most anime companies don't have Konami's resources behind them to hire talented and less used people like Phill Lamarr (who is also fairly expensive I hear).


----------



## Sephiroth (Dec 2, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> FF1-6 and FF9 are decent.
> 
> 7,8,10,11,12,13 and 14 are horrible.



Tactics is the best of all. 

It's understandable why everyone hates 7 though.


----------



## zenieth (Dec 2, 2010)

8 still has the greatest soundtrack out of Square.


----------



## SHM (Dec 2, 2010)

basch71 said:


> That doesn't really change what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In both FFVII and ACC, Sephiroth's spirit hijacked Jenova's body/cells and used it as his own. Hell, by the time of ACC there is no trace of any S-cells anymore. The Sephiroth who appears at the end of the movie is 100% Jenova, the same way the Sephiroth that appears during the first half of FFVII is 100% Jenova too.
Post-Nibel Sephiroth took Jenova's body/cells as _his own_, because his original body dissolved in the Lifestream. Therefore, he can use all powers granted by Jenova's body/cells.

The entire point of my argument is to show you that, yes, Post-Nibel Sephiroth _can_ turn intangible, because he uses Jenova's body as his own. Everything Jenova could do, Post-Nibel Sephiroth can do.


----------



## Knight (Dec 2, 2010)

Hoshino Rika said:


> I said part of the reason.
> 
> Whether you want to admit or not, in a JRPG, these are the voices that you'll be listening to for a good 20 hours and if they grate you, the game will get on your nerves.
> 
> ...



Yuri actual does a good job with the Prince of Persia series. But no one can stand up to the Might of Rodger Craig Smith as Ezio and the new Sonic.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 2, 2010)

He's also Shinji in Bleach.

That's where I first heard him anyway.


----------



## Alucardemi (Dec 2, 2010)

Sephiroth said:


> Tactics is the best of all.
> 
> It's understandable why everyone hates 7 though.



Posting to agree that tactics WAS FREAKIN AWESOME

And yes, unfortunately 7 and it`s character base, while they have a strong fanbase, is most definitely one of the most hated games/characters of all. I think most of the hate stems of the fanbase it`s self and the fact that it was more focused by SE, while some other peoples fav. FF was overlooked.


----------



## xeno335 (Dec 2, 2010)

im glad most people are on the same page, sin wins.

and yes tactics was severely  underrated if was given the same treatment as other FFs i have little doubt it would have been an all time favorite (not that it isnt already) just more.


----------

