# Tsunade with Enma vs Ei



## Luftwaffles (Jun 9, 2013)

Location: Vote
Distance: 40 meters
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: None

Assume Enma can use Kage Bunshin and can alterate his mass/size at will similar to the games/anime; and Tsunade starts in Byakugou.
Can the 3rd's summon and Tsunade work in tandem to defeat Ei?


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## Mithos (Jun 9, 2013)

I believe Tsunade has a very good chance at defeating A without Enma. Her regeneration and Katsuyu summoning make her pretty much impossible for him to kill her until she runs out of chakra. And even with A's speed, he's still vulnerable to a counter-attack at close range, or being tossed into the air  - where he can't dodge - by the destruction of Tsunade's strikes. 

With Enma, Tsunade wins for sure. Enma can form a cage around A if he comes in to attack. Once he's trapped, Enma could probably open one side of the cage and let Tsunade in to smash him. The cage also serves as an anti-blitz defense, preventing A from overwhemling Tsunade with repeated blitzes.


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## narut0ninjafan (Jun 9, 2013)

I agree with Matto-sama, Tsunade can beat A without Enma.

In an IC mindset Tsunade almost definitely beats A, because IC he starts off in V1. V1 is fast but she was able to register his movements when he started to attack Naruto, and start moving, and she was able to jump to cover a large distance to attack in unison with a lightened A, so Tsunade can more than keep up. 

Since she's starting in Byakugou, nothing A does will kill her, and from the very first strike, she can simply hold her ground and strike back, and unlike Tsunade, A will be severely wounded from a single strike. After which Tsunade finishes the match.


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## tanman (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm going to go ahead and ignore Enma+. The activation speed of Enma's cage is unknown and A is no slowpoke. Enma is physical stats seem to be kage level, but he suffers from the same problem that Tsunade does:

Like it or not, it's quite difficult to overcome a huge speed gap between two CQC combatants. Once A uses Lariat, he has this match.  She doesn't have the reflexes to dodge it or the feats to regenerate from it. A essentially has full knowledge. He's under no circumstances going to allow himself to dilly-dally when he's knows the power of her punches. Lariat has always been shown to have enough force to keep A going beyond his opponent, so "standing her ground" won't work. Her only chance is if V1 A goes for a jab or a normal punch to the chest, which would be incredibly dumb of him. A is no moron.


Furthermore, "in-character" A may well go straight to V2. He did against Minato and this time he's fighting against a kage that he has full knowledge on. Also recall that chidori had a special advantage over A's raiton armor. A glancing blow on A won't suffice here.


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## Mithos (Jun 9, 2013)

tanman said:


> Lariat has always been shown to have enough force to keep A going beyond his opponent, so "standing her ground" won't work.



IIRC, A was able to "stand his ground" against one of Bee's lariats. 

Tsunade is stronger than he is. If they clash in a match of power - which will happen if he tries to lariat her - she will win.


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## Bonly (Jun 9, 2013)

I'd say same as without Emma. A will either manage to cut her head off eventually or Tsunade manages to outlast him and finish him off.


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## LostSelf (Jun 9, 2013)

The only thing i know here is that Tsunade nor Enma is not hitting Ei if he has knowledge. And she's not reacting to V2 either.

If Ei acts like idiot and only fights with V1, he manages to hit her some but can be countered. If he plays V2 he blitzes both of them the entire fight. I seriously doubt that Tsunade will outlast him getting damage while he just blitzes and hits her.


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## trance (Jun 9, 2013)

Enma is a nonfactor. Tsunade takes this high difficulty.


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## Mithos (Jun 9, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> If he plays V2 he blitzes both of them the entire fight. I seriously doubt that Tsunade will outlast him getting damage while he just blitzes and hits her.





Lazers said:


> Enma is a nonfactor. Tsunade takes this high difficulty.



How does he continously blitz her when Enma can form a cage around her, preventing him from reaching her? 

Not to mention she also has Katsuyu to meld over her.


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## Doge (Jun 9, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> How does he continously blitz her when Enma can form a cage around her, preventing him from reaching her?
> 
> Not to mention she also has Katsuyu to meld over her.



Then he waits for her to stop camping like any decent COD player....I mean shinobi.


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## LostSelf (Jun 9, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> How does he continously blitz her when Enma can form a cage around her, preventing him from reaching her?
> 
> Not to mention she also has Katsuyu to meld over her.



Because Enma cannot keep up with Ei either.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 9, 2013)

The Slug Princess can take Ay regardless of the Monkey King's assistance. They wreck each other with one healing while the other doesn't.

Extreme strength+great durability+extreme resilience and regeneration trump super strength+super durability+extreme speed when stacked against each other.

Enma is honestly a non-factor, as the Hokage's explosive punch is more damaging than batting someone with a staff no matter how hard it is.

Katsuyu would be of far greater help were she to be brought out anyway since she can divide into thousands of slugs and stop Raikage from charging Tsunade at full speed in V2.


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## Mithos (Jun 9, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Because Enma cannot keep up with Ei either.



He doesn't have to. A cannot damage him. And it's not like there aren't going to be intervals between A's attacks. Enma should have no problem activating the cage. 

Speed is the most overrated thing in the battle-dome.



FlamingRain said:


> Enma is honestly a non-factor



While I agree Tsunade wins without Enma, I think Enma is a huge help here. 

The 'Enma Cage' is a great offense and defense: it can stop A from keeping the pressure on Tsunade; and it can also be used as a trap to make it much easier for Tsunade to land her needed punch. Hell, they can trap A inside and then have Katsuyu blast acid through the holes in the cage. Enma will be fine, but A won't be. Enma is a great resource in this fight. Without Enma I'd give the fight to Tsunade with very high difficulty, but with him I'd say she takes it moderate difficulty.


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## LostSelf (Jun 9, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> He doesn't have to. A cannot damage him. And it's not like there aren't going to be intervals between A's attacks. Enma should have no problem activating the cage.
> 
> Speed is the most overrated thing in the battle-dome.



If Enma stays protecting her she won't attack. For her to do so he can't be a cage. Therefore he can be blitzed just like her and Ei can damage her faster than Enma can react (and her).

We're talking about the second fastest character in this manga with reflexes fast enough to dodge Amaterasu versus a girl with average speed. This is nothing of overrated. She cannot hit him unless, of course, she manages to grab him.


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## Mithos (Jun 9, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> If Enma stays protecting her she won't attack. For her to do so he can't be a cage. Therefore he can be blitzed just like her and Ei can damage her faster than he can react to.
> 
> We're talking about the second fastest character in this manga versus a girl with average speed. This is nothing of overrated. She cannot hit him unless, of course, she manages to grab him.



Average speed? Tsunade has great reaction speed and a fast shunshin, enabling her to keep pace with A against Madara and to react and intercept Madara's Katon before Mei could even before a suiton jutsu. He's much faster, but she's no slouch. 

What does A do after he blitzes them? Tsunade is saved by Byakugou and Enma isn't going to be harmed by A. And A doesn't have to power to safely attack Tsunade without fear of her taking the blow and smashing back before he can move. There is something called momentum, you know. You can't always strike and then move immediately. He may strike Tsunade only to have the cage form around him. He may strike her only to have her smash into him right back - and he'd be at the losing end of that deal. He may strike Tsunade and move to do so again, but Enma forms the cage around her, stopping him. 

And that's without Katsuyu also on the field.


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## LostSelf (Jun 9, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Average speed? Tsunade has great reaction speed and a fast shunshin, enabling her to keep pace with A against Madara and to react and intercept Madara's Katon before Mei could even before a suiton jutsu. He's much faster, but she's no slouch.



Yes, average speed. What Shunshin? Hitting an stationary Madara that was not attempting to dodge is no feat. Rock Lee managed the same. She's not comparable to Ei nor in speed or reflexes, she's far from that. She managed to do that because Mei and the others were more injured than her thanks to Byakugo. Therefore she was in better condition.

Slouch in speed is Chouji. A bit faster than average is not slouch. And what pace? It is she kicking Madara's Susano'o? Because i proved how Ei moved more than twice her distance and it wasn't with his speed. It was Onoki's.



> What does A do after he blitzes them? Tsunade is saved by Byakugou and Enma isn't going to be harmed by A. And A doesn't have to power to safely attack Tsunade without fear of her taking the blow and smashing back before he can move. There is something called momentum, you know. You can't always strike and then move immediately. He may strike Tsunade only to have the cage form around him. He may strike her only to have her smash into him right back - and he'd be at the losing end of that deal. He may strike Tsunade and move to do so again, but Enma forms the cage around her, stopping him.




He can hit her for example. Are we assuming Tsunade will strike back faster than he could manage to react and dodge? Against the man that dodge Amaterasu? Not happening. He can attack over and over again without fear of being touched since he can confortably react to all of her attacks while she can't (of course, talking about V2). He doesn't need to strike Enma when he can hit her.

And, no. Enma cannot react to form a cage before Ei strikes her. He has to keep the cage formed for that. And if he does that then she won't be able to fight either. If Enma forms the cage, Ei stops. She cannot hit him, blindside him or anything. Enma or Katsuyu can't either.



> And that's without Katsuyu also on the field.



If she stays inside Katsuyu then she cannot kill him as he can't.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 9, 2013)

If Tsunade fights Ei in a 1v1 she has a good chance of defeating him by relying on her close quarters prowess. However Ei's V2 speed gives him just as a great a chance of defeating her with a chop to the head, as Tsunade relying on regeneration/strength to kill him with a fleeting blow. 

That said, whenever we also throw in Katsuyu, Tsunade definitely trumps him. Whatever chance there was for Ei to behead her or outlast her regeneration, becomes almost zero. The slug's huge acid blasts and ability to divide into thousands of clones mess Ei up. If Tsunade stands on top of the slug's head, then the minute Ei tries to scale her back he gets sucked into her body and left for dead. 

Enma doesn't play a huge role in the long run. As Matto-sama said, in a battle of CQC he could form a cage around Ei while he dukes it out with Tsunade, that way he has no way of throwing hits and she can still kill him with Katsuyu (but the slug can kill him regardless of whether he's immobilised or not).

Tsunade trumps with high difficulty.​​


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## Winchester Gospel (Jun 9, 2013)

Generally, A vs. Tsunade, should the latter not opt for a Katsuyu camp strategy, has always come down to whether or not A could kill Tsunade with one clean strike for me. I think it's within possibility because it's her ability to tank legendary swords and magatama while surviving Mabui's tensō against his ability to sever the Hachibi's horn and his own arm, the latter of which also survived Mabui's tensō.

If he can cut through her in one swift action, then that's what he's going to do, and he'll win because she can't follow or react to his maximum speed - see: Lee vs. Sasuke with regards to eyes vs. body movement, then see Sasuke's inability to follow A with his 4.5 speed and sharingan precognition, then see how Minato, the benchmark for speed and reflexes in the manga, failed to register A until the last possible moment before dodging with an ability that doesn't require physical movement.

That's a lot to write off, and it's not something you should with such methods as placing the two in a similar speed tier simply because of their coordinated attacks against a shared foe. You don't need to be similarly fast when you're being given a near-constant positional advantage as a result of the rest of your team taking the enemy's attention from you, and that should've been clear the moment Tsunade was attacking alongside the even quicker A + Ōnoki combination without any sort of speed enhancement.

Now, A could rush in with or without his maximum speed and trade blows only to get overpowered or struck with a surprise ranshinshō by Tsunade, but that's ignoring his manga knowledge. If he knows this is a losing strategy against the one person whose physical strength eclipses his own, he's going to play to _his own_ strength, not hers: that means using raiton shunshin to get into her blind spot as he did with Sasuke and finishing her before she can turn around and reassemble her guard with movement speed that doesn't rival Sasuke's eyes or Minato's body.

When faced with an extremely fast opponent, you don't _react_, you _predict_. It's a subtle difference, but it's relevant, and it's how you can explain certain exchanges in the manga that don't otherwise have sensible outcomes. Predicting the enemy's plan of attack is how Sasuke was able to defend himself from A with enton despite being unable to follow the latter's speed with even his eyes. It's also how Bee was able to raise a sword to Minato's midriff despite the latter using the impossible-to-surpass hirashin.

Prediction gives you a greater window of time in order to respond to the enemy when compared to pure reaction, and it's based about as much on intuition, intelligence, and general ability as it is on speed. These are the categories where I expect Tsunade to trump A, but generally she still loses out because she's such a similar fighter to him that she can't really pull out some ninjutsu that would otherwise allow her to effectively capitalise on the exchange. Katsuyu could work, but she needs to already be present.

Enma might give that to her, though, and that's why I see her with the ability to win this match even without a complex Katsuyu strategy. When scaled appropriately, Enma has got a lot of credibility: he's the signature summon of Hiruzen, who at one point was considered one of the strongest amongst the Kage, and his transformation was able to deflect an advance from Hashirama's mokuton, the sort that was parrying the level of speed used by Madara and the Five Kage.

If Tsunade is intuitive enough to predict the moment of A's attack, or react to his sudden disappearance with the assistance of Katsuyu, then she wouldn't have to keep with his speed; she could defend herself with kongō rōheki at the last possible moment, and use the opening created by recoil from A's attack to deal a lethal blow. We don't really know what Enma's ninjutsu speed is like, but the upper-estimations within reason should definitely fall within range of A's ability.


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## LostSelf (Jun 9, 2013)

This is the problem here. (I really liked Winchester's post). That Ei is not only faster (by much), his speed was too big as to be reacted by Sasuke who has much better reflexes and better body movement than her.

On top of that, Ei can behead her. And his speed is so big that he, with knowledge, can do that before she summons katsuyu. I doubt that Enma is reacting to his V2 if someone like Minato couldn't up until the last moment.

In other words, Ei bypasses her regeneration. (I don't think Tsunade can regrow a new head). And even if she could (I repeat that i don't think so), doing that would take a lot of chakra and time. Time that Ei would not give her.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 9, 2013)

> It's also how Bee was able to raise a sword to Minato's midriff despite the latter using the impossible-to-surpass hirashin.



This is wonderfully wrong, though I wish it weren't, because I thought of it too.

Bee's left arm is visible in this top panel, as Raikage is beginning his charge.  

Which means that at the very least, Bee moved his arm, drew his sword, and positioned it behind his back during Ei's top speed shunshin.  

At the wildest, he did it after Minato jumped.

If you're prepared to admit any of those feats, then you would also have to place young Bee's predictive abilities and arm movement speed wildly above current Tsunade's to think she wouldn't manage to touch him.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Totally separate and unrelated, I think Enma would just make a cage to cover her blind spots, or she'd spin extendo Enma to surprise swipe Ei when he's rushing in or trying to zip in to circle behind her, or just make a cage to cover her blind spots to leave him only one opening.  I'm 100% sure Raikage will rush in even knowing it's a set up, because he doesn't have any other choice.  Even if the hit wouldn't finish him, it would cause internal bleeding and damage, and even though I think the Raikage can fight in spite of it, his toughness doesn't mean he won't succumb to the injuries.  Hence, why he needed Shi to stop the bleeding, even though he was un-phased by the pain of his arm being on fire, or  cutting it off himself.  

Unrelated unrelated.  Check out this panel of Gaara staring into an Uchiha's eyes.

Then Sasuke is bleeding out the eyeballs with some new crazy sharingan, and he says they're the same as ever.  lolz


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## FlamingRain (Jun 9, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> This is the problem here. (I really liked Winchester's post). That Ei is not only faster (by much), *his speed was too big as to be reacted by Sasuke *who has much better reflexes and better body movement than her.
> 
> On top of that, Ei can behead her. And his speed is so big that he, with knowledge, can do that before she summons katsuyu. I doubt that Enma is reacting to his V2 if someone like Minato couldn't up until the last moment.
> 
> In other words, Ei bypasses her regeneration. (I don't think Tsunade can regrow a new head). And even if she could (I repeat that i don't think so), doing that would take a lot of chakra and time. Time that Ei would not give her.



Tbh, the fact that Sasuke put up Enton before Ay threw his strike makes me question the bolded.

It seems to me like Ay reaches his opponents super fast and _then_ takes the chance to wind up his large strikes and attack. And that gives even slower opponents a chance to react to his strikes even when they don't register his actual dash.

It let Suigetsu block this panel, and it let Naruto block as well this panel. You've already brought up Sasuke. 

As far as I'm concerned _reacting_ to V2's attacks isn't unlikely. Especially considering Tsunade has knowledge on Ay and specializes in anticipating her opponents moves beforehand, which should also help to somewhat bridge that speed gap. _Dodging_ is unlikely, as only Naruto and Minato have done that, but reacting- I think she could do it.

Heck, Onoki could, he had to _react_ to amplify Ay's strength against Madara, and this was an Ay who was _lightened_ beforehand.

It's just that, against _most_ opponents even if they do react it means nothing. If they block, they still go flying and their arms break, counter and they won't get through the shroud.

Unfortunately Tsunade has the power to hurt him if she counters.

In addition to that, I really can't see it being likely for Ay to go V2 right off the bat. He didn't do it against Madara freaking Uchiha. . .I don't care how much knowledge he has on Tsunade, if he didn't think it would be good to start with V2 against Madara, he won't think it against her more times than he opts for V1.


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## Winchester Gospel (Jun 9, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> This is wonderfully wrong, though I wish it weren't, because I thought of it too.
> 
> Bee's left arm is visible in this top panel, as Raikage is beginning his charge.
> 
> ...



If you somehow think that micro-analyzing the minute details of Kishimoto's artwork from panel to panel is more accurate than accounting for it and then making a general claim about how someone could possibly combat the highest levels of speed in the manga using every other source of information we've available, including other manga pages, then yes, it is "wonderfully wrong".

I'm not a fan of that sort of Battledome logic, though, so I'm not going to bother telling you that you've equated the start of the Raikage's run with the use of his actual shunshin, which could've just as easily occurred between any of the other panels on that page, and most probably between the fourth and fifth since we see an entire sentence form just before that (which is plenty of time for the off-panel Bee to "predict").

Of course, if I made that claim, I fully expect that someone would come in and respond with the infamous "Talking is a free action, so it doesn't count!" argument, but... well, said person still couldn't tell me where A's 'true speed' began and what an out-of-sight Bee was doing in the moments and panels leading up to it with any precision - no, they'd probably resort to guesswork that would naturally support their own claims.

I'm skipping the guesswork and saying Minato's Hiraishin and A's Raiton Shunshin are impossibly fast. That makes more sense to me than the other thing.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2013)

If Enma can alter his size & mass freely than Enma solos. All he does is transform into a cage large enough that A can't escape in time. Once A is stuck in the case he just waits till A starves to death, while A can't do anything to him since A lacks the strength to break through Enma's polarm form which can alter it's mass, heck Enma could also just transform into a smaller cage breaking A's neck.

Yes that's how hax that ability is. Basically you start giving anyone their Video game feats and they can start punching way out of their weight class and hell many are given raw power on par with Hashirama and some even surpassing him.


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## LostSelf (Jun 9, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Tbh, the fact that Sasuke put up Enton before Ay threw his strike makes me question the bolded.



It seems that Ei moved far from Sasuke. Anyway he left his field of vision. Sasuke's only vhoice was that.



> It seems to me like Ay reaches his opponents super fast and _then_ takes the chance to wind up his large strikes and attack. And that gives even slower opponents a chance to react to his strikes even when they don't register his actual dash.
> 
> It let Suigetsu block left arm, and it let Naruto block as well left arm. You've already brought up Sasuke.



This is V1 Ei. V2 is another story. In V2 he sent Bee flying with one swing of his arm like a fly.



> As far as I'm concerned _reacting_ to V2's attacks isn't unlikely. Especially considering Tsunade has knowledge on Ay and specializes in anticipating her opponents moves beforehand, which should also help to somewhat bridge that speed gap. _Dodging_ is unlikely, as only Naruto and Minato have done that, but reacting- I think she could do it.



Not likely. Ei has knowledge as well. Tsunade would be launching punches to the air because first of all she would not be seeing Ei, and second, Ei would dodge easily all her punches. It's just a matter of time before Ei cuts her head off. Reacting to something she can't see is unlikely.



> Heck, Onoki could, he had to _react_ to amplify Ay's strength against Madara, and this was an Ay who was _lightened_ beforehand.



This wasn't Ei. This was Oonoki's movement since he was flying.



> It's just that, against _most_ opponents even if they do react it means nothing. If they block, they still go flying and their arms break, counter and they won't get through the shroud.
> 
> Unfortunately Tsunade has the power to hurt him if she counters.



She cannot block Ei's attacks. Her arms or anything she uses would be cut in half if Ei wants. And with knowledge of her regen it's his best choice. I doubt she can react to him anyway just like i said above. Predicting would be better but, Ei has knowlegdge and much better reflexes than her.



> In addition to that, I really can't see it being likely for Ay to go V2 right off the bat. He didn't do it against Madara freaking Uchiha. . .I don't care how much knowledge he has on Tsunade, if he didn't think it would be good to start with V2 against Madara, he won't think it against her more times than he opts for V1.



It depends. If he thinks he needs V2 to win, yeah. He knows Tsunade has a one shot killing attack, can regen and has a lot of resilence. Why not finish her quick?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 10, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> It seems that Ei moved far from Sasuke. Anyway he left his field of vision. Sasuke's only vhoice was that.



I didn't the impression that Ay moved far away.

And it was not until after Raikage reared back his hand that the shield went up, which makes me believe Sasuke heard Ay preparing behind him and reacted accordingly.



> This is V1 Ei. V2 is another story. In V2 he sent Bee flying with one swing of his arm like a fly.



V2 would not make Ay suddenly change his habit of not readying his strike until after he gets to his opponent, V2 just makes him Shunshin faster.

And the instance you're referring to was a base Ay, with Bee believing he had calmed down. Ay and his cheapshots. . .smh.



> Not likely. Ei has knowledge as well. Tsunade would be launching punches to the air because first of all she would not be seeing Ei, and second, Ei would dodge easily all her punches. It's just a matter of time before Ei cuts her head off. Reacting to something she can't see is unlikely.



If Ay is dodging her punches he is not attacking her. If he attacks, he isn't dodging.

I'm saying Tsunade attacks _while_ he attacks (not dodging), and lights out for Ay.

She'll meet with more success counter-attacking than she would trying to just strike on her own.

I don't think slicing her head off would kill her, though.



> This wasn't Ei. This was Oonoki's movement since he was flying.



No, Ay was running. left arm

They are at an angle, so it might look weird, but Ay's feet are touching the ground every time we see him, he's not flying.



> She cannot block Ei's attacks. Her arms or anything she uses would be cut in half if Ei wants. And with knowledge of her regen it's his best choice. I doubt she can react to him anyway just like i said above. Predicting would be better but, Ei has knowlegdge and much better reflexes than her.



I didn't say Tsunade would block Raigyaku Suihei. Though were she to attempt to block as he attacked she would position her arm where his forearm would be- which does not slice like his hand does. That is any martial artist's natural response. (And yes I would know.)

If Ay wants to play keep-away he can. But he cannot attack Tsunade and simultaneously dodge her strike, he cannot go in two directions at once. And he does not have the option of simply tanking either because she is simply too strong. (And he can't block and punch with one arm, not that she wouldn't just bust through his arm anyway.)



> It depends. If he thinks he needs V2 to win, yeah. He knows Tsunade has a one shot killing attack, can regen and has a lot of resilence. Why not finish her quick?



I guess he wouldn't for whatever reason he didn't against Madara. An MS user pushed him to V2 but then he only uses V1 against a vastly more dangerous EMS user, despite only having one arm instead of two this time. 

I'm not even confident V2 will cross his mind at the start tbqh, and if he uses V1 by the time he figures he should try V2 it'll be too late.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2013)

FlamingRain what reason would A have to go V2 for against Madara right off the bat?


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## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I didn't the impression that Ay moved far away.
> 
> And it was not until after Raikage reared back his hand that the shield went up, which makes me believe Sasuke heard Ay preparing behind him and reacted accordingly.



I figured it took some time for him to appear because everyone had time talking before he did that amd the position he appears implies that he did not only appeared behind Sasuke, but he was running



> V2 would not make Ay suddenly change his habit of not readying his strike until after he gets to his opponent, V2 just makes him Shunshin faster.



Yeah, i said that to say he doesn't need to run some distance to ready his attack. However, with his speed it's a good thing to do because his punch will be stronger. Anyway what i meant is that Suigetsu managed to block V1. V2 is another thing.



> And the instance you're referring to was a base Ay, with Bee believing he had calmed down. Ay and his cheapshots. . .smh.



Indeed.



> If Ay is dodging her punches he is not attacking her. If he attacks, he isn't dodging.



One of his attack can one shot her considering that he is more than capable of blitzing her.



> I'm saying Tsunade attacks _while_ he attacks (not dodging), and lights out for Ay.



That's true. However landing the attack is what i don't see happening.



> She'll meet with more success counter-attacking than she would trying to just strike on her own.



How can she counter attack and he can't when he has much better reflexes, cutting attacks and is light years faster? She cannot see him in this state, though. Nor can do what Sasuke and Minato, two faster and more reflexive shinobis couldn't do. Physically countering Ei in V2. 



> I don't think slicing her head off would kill her, though.



This is assumption since she hasn't shown to regrow limbs and databook jutsus description are failed. And even if she doesn't die she's still fucked since Ei would not give her a chance to fully regenerate like Orochimaru and Madara did.



> No, Ay was running. was running
> 
> They are at an angle, so it might look weird, but Ay's feet are touching the ground every time we see him, he's not flying.



Yeah, however Onoki did nothing there. He was just grabbing Ei's back so he had nothing to react to (I thought you meant when he was flying). Oonoki only lightened his body while Ei did everything else. It has nothing to do with Oonoki's reflexes.



> I didn't say Tsunade would block Raigyaku Suihei. Though were she to attempt to block as he attacked she would position her arm where his forearm would be- which does not slice like his hand does. That is any martial artist's natural response. (And yes I would know.)



Except that she should know where he is going to attack. And she's not doing it if Minato and Sasuke couldn't and they are both better than her in the reflexes department. And Ei can attack from any angle. Like her back.



> If Ay wants to play keep-away he can. But he cannot attack Tsunade and simultaneously dodge her strike, he cannot go in two directions at once.



He can attack her and then dodge. She's not fighting a fast guy. She's fighting the fastest man in the world when it comes to movement speed. I seriously don't see her reacting to V2 at all. And she cannot shrug off Ei's attack and inmediately counter attack and hit someone as fast as him. This is too much for her. Not to mention that she hasn't shown that skill, reflexes and speed in order to do so.



> I guess he wouldn't for whatever reason he didn't against Madara. An MS user pushed him to V2 but then he only uses V1 against a vastly more dangerous EMS user, despite only having one arm instead of two this time.



He had 4 kages backing him up. And he used it once he started his attack with Oonoki.



> I'm not even confident V2 will cross his mind at the start tbqh, and if he uses V1 by the time he figures he should try V2 it'll be too late.



If he knows that, he would not be so stupid.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jun 10, 2013)

Bonly said:


> FlamingRain what reason would A have to go V2 for against Madara right off the bat?



The fact that it's Madara Uchiha.


TheIronMan, I had just typed my response when my computer decided to mess with me, so this is shortened cuz I'm lazy. 



TheIronMan said:


> Yeah, i said that to say he doesn't need to run some distance to ready his attack. However, with his speed it's a good thing to do because his punch will be stronger. Anyway what i meant is that Suigetsu managed to block V1. V2 is another thing.



V2's striking speed is no different than V1's. The only difference between V1 and V2 is the amount of chakra Ay pumps into his _Shunshin_ to increase the speed at which he can close in on an opponent. Tsunade won't mind this as a close-quarters combatant herself. His strike on the other hand gets no faster, and we've seen Tsunade match his striking speed on-panel when they appeared on the battlefield.



> One of his attack can one shot her considering that he is more than capable of blitzing her.



Ehhh. . . . .he'll blitz and she'll survive while he meets with the dire consequence of taking one of her blows.



> That's true. However landing the attack is what i don't see happening.
> 
> How can she counter attack and he can't when he has much better reflexes, cutting attacks and is light years faster? She cannot see him in this state, though. Nor can do what Sasuke and Minato, two faster and more reflexive shinobis couldn't do. Physically countering Ei in V2.



I never said Ay couldn't counterattack. You never claimed he would. Dodging and counter-attacking are two different things with one taking more movement and time to do than the other. And he can try and use the method she will, but it does nothing but get them both wrecked while she gets better and he doesn't. He doesn't have any other choice than to go into close-quarters with her though, and if he hesitates and backs up she'll take the chance to bring out the slug and divide her across the field.

Ay's striking speed is no greater than her own, V2 or not.

Minato and Sasuke's inability to physically counter V2 has not a thing to do with reflexes or their ability to strike quickly, it has to do with power. They cannot do what Tsunade can for the same reason Ay can't- they can't tank or regenerate from Ay's strike. Meanwhile Ay would tank whatever they dished out.

It isn't that they _couldn't_ do it, it's that doing such would serve to do nothing more than _get *themselves* and *themselves only* killed_.



> This is assumption since she hasn't shown to regrow limbs and databook jutsus description are failed.



I know it is, and it is one I will stand by. I personally think it ridiculous to assume Byakugo no Jutsu can be circumvented by two seconds of thought and aiming a little higher than usual.

If that were the case then Kishimoto has no reason whatsoever to make her regeneration run out before she's ever in danger of being killed, yet he always does- and against people who have no more of a problem aiming for someone's head than Ay does.

I'm not on board with this "feats only" way of doing things that a lot of members here seemingly are.



> Yeah, however Onoki did nothing there. He was just grabbing Ei's back so he had nothing to react to (I thought you meant when he was flying). Oonoki only lightened his body while Ei did everything else. It has nothing to do with Oonoki's reflexes.



No, he did something: Onoki activated _Kajugan no Jutsu_ before Ay landed his strikes. Otherwise Ay's strikes would have been light as a feather like Kabuto expected them to be.

Two times he made Ay light and then put him back at the last second, with a jutsu that isn't automatic, meaning he reacted.

So again, Ay does not strike so fast in any state that he's impossible to simply _react_ to.

*Dodging* is a different story, and it's totally not what I'm claiming Tsunade can do.



> Except that she should know where he is going to attack. And she's not doing it if Minato and Sasuke couldn't and they are both better than her in the reflexes department. And Ei can attack from any angle. Like her back.



Yes she should know where he's going to attack. I knew this much?

Except nothing says Minato and Sasuke couldn't, they simply don't have the option of trading blows because they lack super resilience and regeneration, as well as enough power to actually hurt Ay.

If he does that he just gets back-kicked. I place more faith in Tsunade's ability to predict such an attack than I place in Ay outsmarting Tsunade.



> He can attack her and then dodge. She's not fighting a fast guy. She's fighting the fastest man in the world when it comes to movement speed. I seriously don't see her reacting to V2 at all. And she cannot shrug off Ei's attack and inmediately counter attack and hit someone as fast as him. This is too much for her. Not to mention that she hasn't shown that skill, reflexes and speed in order to do so.



_Reacting_ to Ay's wound up, wide strike does not require Tsunade to be a speed beast.

She's matched his striking speed already when they intercepted Madara/Mu.

V2 does not increase Ay's _striking speed_, V2 is nothing more than Ay pumping maximum chakra into his _Shunshin_.

Ay cannot attack her and then dodge because she will attack _when he does_, and he will get hit _when she does_. If he dodges out of the way at the last second he will have missed his chance to strike her. He doesn't have the option of cover-punching or something either because he only has one arm (not that it would matter since she'd go right through his guard anyway).



> He had 4 kages backing him up. And he used it once he started his attack with Oonoki.



No he did not. Tsunade, Gaara, and Onoki were busy with heals, Mei was nowhere near him after her attack.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The fact that it's Madara Uchiha.



And? Is that it?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 10, 2013)

Bonly said:


> And? Is that it?



Yes. And I'm being 100% serious when I say that.

Regardless of whatever regeneration or super strength Tsunade may have, Madara >>>>> than she is.

Madara is also >>>>> Sasuke, who Ay lost his arm to.

So. . . .yeah, as far as I'm concerned he's got every bit a reason to go V2 right off the bat against Madara as he does with Tsunade.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes. And I'm being 100% serious when I say that.
> 
> Regardless of whatever regeneration or super strength Tsunade may have, Madara >>>>> than she is.
> 
> ...



And what exactly would him going V2 do? He sent Madara flying into Mei's lava and then attacked Madara while Madara was in the lava. Why go V2 when he can do it in V1? Also A went V2 right off the bat against Minato. Do you believe Minato>>>>>>>>>>>> Madara as well?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2013)

> FlamingRain what reason would A have to go V2 for against Madara right off the bat?



I would think because it's the legendary Madara, and everyone thought they were screwed because they didn't have Hashirama.



> I guess he wouldn't for whatever reason he didn't against Madara.



Ei used his max speed, because after he chopped Madara's ribcage, he came back and mentioned that he needed to find a way to up his speed so he'd get enough power to break through it.  I don't think he would have said that if he could just....go faster and do that.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 10, 2013)

@TPOW, I always thought that was just him saying he needed to go to V2. His hair never spikes until his combo with Onoki.



Bonly said:


> And what exactly would him going V2 do? He sent Madara flying into Mei's lava and then attacked Madara while Madara was in the lava. *Why go V2 when he can do it in V1?* Also A went V2 right off the bat against Minato. Do you believe Minato>>>>>>>>>>>> Madara as well?



The same question could be asked of this match. He can already chase Tsunade down and attack with enough force in V1, why go V2?

He should've figured to go V2 against Madara because he's a far more powerful opponent than Sasuke, and using an even further evolved doujutsu. Yet he stayed in V1.

Did he go V2 against Minato?

Did he even have V2 back then? 

Also is that a trick question about Minato > Madara? 

Even if he did, I don't think Byakugo will prompt him to go V2 like Hiraishin. But that's just me.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2013)

Here it is.  

"He can guard against my speed, I need to up my speed," and then Onoki backpacks him.  Highly implied V2.

VS Minato his headband kept his hair down, but what wasn't pinned to his forehead still sticking up.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The same question could be asked of this match. He can already chase Tsunade down and attack with enough force in V1, why go V2?
> 
> Did he go V2 against Minato?
> 
> ...



You failed to answer my question. Why would he need to go V2 against Madara when he can do it in V1. 

Why would he go V2 here? I'd assume because he faces a bigger risk in CQC against Tsunade then Madara when he did go into CQC against Madara.

Yes he did, he even said that Minato evaded his full speed.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 10, 2013)

Bonly said:


> You failed to answer my question. Why would he need to go V2 against Madara when he can do it in V1.
> 
> Why would he go V2 here? I'd assume because he faces a bigger risk in CQC against Tsunade then Madara when he did go into CQC against Madara.



Because Madara is not one of those opponents you decide to just go "good enough" with, he's far too dangerous, far more than Tsunade, which is why I don't see him immediately going V2 against her.

Though if he does it doesn't change how I see this match going.



> Yes he did, he even said that Minato evaded his full speed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2013)

> @TPOW, I always thought that was just him saying he needed to go to V2. His hair never spikes until his combo with Onoki.



It kind of does.  But if you don't think it's V2 that's okay.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Because Madara is not one of those opponents you decide to just go "good enough" with, he's far too dangerous, far more than Tsunade, which is why I don't see him immediately going V2 against her.
> 
> Though if he does it doesn't change how I see this match going.



Mei has two kekkei genkai which means she can use at least three element. She only used water and her lava. Does this mean she won't ever use the other elements because she didn't use them against MADARA who is likely stronger then anyone else she will face? 

Onoki's kekkei touta mixes three elements together IIRC. Does this means Onoki will only use Earth and Jinton since he didn't use the others against MADARA!?

Tsunade can summon Katsuyu. Does this mean Tsunade won't summon her unless she's fighting someone else with a boss summon or a man who just lost his arms (when it comes to fighting) because she didn't do it against MADARA!?

Just because he is Madara that doesn't mean they are going to use everything in their arsenal to attack. A had no reason to go V2 when V1 can get the job the few times he went into CQC against Madara. Its fine if you don't think A would go into V2 against Tsunade but that logic of "ITS MADARA!!!!!!" doesn't really fit as well.


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## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> V2's striking speed is no different than V1's. The only difference between V1 and V2 is the amount of chakra Ay pumps into his _Shunshin_ to increase the speed at which he can close in on an opponent. Tsunade won't mind this as a close-quarters combatant herself. His strike on the other hand gets no faster, and we've seen Tsunade match his striking speed on-panel when they appeared on the battlefield.



But if he does that his attack will still be faster than in V1. This is not a diference. She should mind because she cannot react to a V2 shunshin.



> Ehhh. . . . .he'll blitz and she'll survive while he meets with the dire consequence of taking one of her blows.


How is she surviving a blitzing cutting attack that would surely cut for example, the neck and behead her? Tsunade cannot tank Ei's cutting attack, let alone reacting to that and counter attacking.

Also the Raikage implied that he could move fast just after attacking against an instantaneous jutsu. 

If the Raikage considered the option of moving fast after he attacked to Minato's new instantaneous location and take him down. Then he surely can attack and dodge that fast. Much, but MUCH faster than Tsunade's linear punches.



> I never said Ay couldn't counterattack. You never claimed he would. Dodging and counter-attacking are two different things with one taking more movement and time to do than the other. And he can try and use the method she will, but it does nothing but get them both wrecked while she gets better and he doesn't. He doesn't have any other choice than to go into close-quarters with her though, and if he hesitates and backs up she'll take the chance to bring out the slug and divide her across the field.



I still don't know what makes us believe that she can counter attack to his speed. Like i said, she cannot shrug off the damage of Ei's attacks and she cannot react to his blitz. If she's hit and survives, she cannot counter attack right away, therefore she will be doing nothing.



> Ay's striking speed is no greater than her own, V2 or not.



His V2 speed makes up for that easily leaving Tsunade's field of vision and hitting her before she can react.



> Minato and Sasuke's inability to physically counter V2 has not a thing to do with reflexes or their ability to strike quickly, it has to do with power. They cannot do what Tsunade can for the same reason Ay can't- they can't tank or regenerate from Ay's strike. Meanwhile Ay would tank whatever they dished out.



They couldn't. I'm talking about dodging. Because if Ei goes with piercing power there's nothing Tsunade can do to save herself from that. Her reflexive feats are far from reacting to his speed to assume she can counter attack and Ei has proven to be able to cut her with ease if he wants to. Minato, who has better reflexes, barely saw Ei before teleporting. If this was Minato, then Tsunade can be clearly blitzed all over the fight.



> It isn't that they _couldn't_ do it, it's that doing such would serve to do nothing more than _get *themselves* and *themselves only* killed_.


They couldn't dodge and that's my point since it's Tsunade's only choice considering the Raikage could go for her head and finish her off quick.



> I know it is, and it is one I will stand by. I personally think it ridiculous to assume Byakugo no Jutsu can be circumvented by two seconds of thought and aiming a little higher than usual.



Not everyone can cut the head of a tank with a one hit kill attack. If her head is cut, the brain would not be able to send signals to her body and Byakugo would be useless. Unless Katsuyu helps her here, of course. And that's if she is not dead.



> If that were the case then Kishimoto has no reason whatsoever to make her regeneration run out before she's ever in danger of being killed, yet he always does- and against people who have no more of a problem aiming for someone's head than Ay does.



He has no reason to kill Tsunade either. 



> I'm not on board with this "feats only" way of doing things that a lot of members here seemingly are.



It's because the jutsu hasn't shown that and the databook is flawed. Kabuto's genjutsu is shown as unbreakable. Amaterasu is as hot as the sun. It's just doesn't fit.



> No, he did something: Onoki activated _Kajugan no Jutsu_ before Ay landed his strikes. Otherwise Ay's strikes would have been light as a feather like Kabuto expected them to be.



That is before Ei attacked.When he stopped. That also has nothing to do with Tsunade's reflexes since Oonoki is the one with the feat. Ei's attacks have been too fast for even Minato to notice up until he was a few inches from his nose.



> Two times he made Ay light and then put him back at the last second, with a jutsu that isn't automatic, meaning he reacted.



Before Ei hit. And again, the feat is Oonoki's. Nothing to do with Tsunade.



> So again, Ay does not strike so fast in any state that he's impossible to simply _react_ to.
> 
> *Dodging* is a different story, and it's totally not what I'm claiming Tsunade can do.



Even if he's not. His speed will allow him to get her blindspots. And Tsunade is not that fast to predict, move and counter if Ei appears behind her before he launches an attack. And that's assuming he doesn't shunshin ready to do it without stopping. Like he was going to do to Minato.

Therefore he still gets clean shots at her.



> Yes she should know where he's going to attack. I knew this much?



She should. But she can't.



> Except nothing says Minato and Sasuke couldn't, they simply don't have the option of trading blows because they lack super resilience and regeneration, as well as enough power to actually hurt Ay.



KArin shows that Sasuke couldn't follow his movements. If Sasuke couldn't keep up then Tsunade can't either. And Minato's expression says it all.

And assuming he will stop and attack. The Raikage charged at Minato with his punch without stopping to attack.



> If he does that he just gets back-kicked. I place more faith in Tsunade's ability to predict such an attack than I place in Ay outsmarting Tsunade.



She's going to react to his V2 speed and hit him before he chops her head off blitzing her? I have not seen such feats of her. Inteligence and launching lucky punches or kick might not be useful here.



> _Reacting_ to Ay's wound up, wide strike does not require Tsunade to be a speed beast.



IF Ei is dumb having manga knowledge and stabs her chest. Something he won't do. The best is going for the head. And if she cannot track his movements then she's having her head chopped. Or her arms if she magically somehow puts them up before Ei gets there.



> She's matched his striking speed already when they intercepted Madara/Mu.



They both appeared at the same time and dramatically intercepted them. It's like saying that Kakashi is as fast as Gated Gai because they both moved in tanden.



> V2 does not increase Ay's _striking speed_, V2 is nothing more than Ay pumping maximum chakra into his _Shunshin_.



Some says it just increases his reflexes. It doesn't matter. We are assumng that he will move, get in front of her, stop and then attack. He's not going to do that. He moved against Minato and was attempting to attack without stopping. Tsunade cannot take that.



> Ay cannot attack her and then dodge because she will attack _when he does_, and he will get hit _when she does_. If he dodges out of the way at the last second he will have missed his chance to strike her. He doesn't have the option of cover-punching or something either because he only has one arm (not that it would matter since she'd go right through his guard anyway).



She will attack when he does IF she reacts to him. But she's not reacting to his speed and would likely notice once he had landed his hit. Like i said, Tsunade has not shown those reflexes. Not even in her dreams. The OP didn't specify if he only had one arm or two. 

And i already showed why he can attack and dodge before she can hit him.



> No he did not. Tsunade, Gaara, and Onoki were busy with heals, Mei was nowhere near him after her attack.



And he wasn't attacking and none of them went serious. Once they went serious he used his speed.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 10, 2013)

@ TheIronMan, I'm tired. 

So I'll have to reply to you in the morning, but we're going to keep going in circles when I do, from what I can see. 



Bonly said:


> Mei has two kekkei genkai which means she can use at least three element. She only used water and her lava. Does this mean she won't ever use the other elements because she didn't use them against MADARA who is likely stronger then anyone else she will face?
> 
> Onoki's kekkei touta mixes three elements together IIRC. Does this means Onoki will only use Earth and Jinton since he didn't use the others against MADARA!?
> 
> ...



Suiton and Yoton were the most effective things she could use there. Her Katons and Futons could contribute nothing, her Suitons could at least put out Madara's Katon and carry things such as Gaara's sand and Ay's electricity.

Jinton and Doton were the most effective things he could use there. Once again Katons and Futons contribute nothing, they don't have the defensive or offensive measures needed in this fight.

Katsuyu would be the least effective thing Tsunade could use there, it would do nothing but get in everyone's way and it can't contribute offensively. Tsunade's punch does more to Susano'o than Katsuyu's acid will.

Ay breaks that chain because V2 is the most effective thing he can use. Yet he didn't use it, he used V1 instead.

He's likely to do the same with Tsunade.

Ay not using V2 is like Tsunade pulling her punch while trying to bust Susano'o as opposed to not summoning.

But if you disagree, then just ignore me, because once again I see the match going the same way.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Suiton and Yoton were the most effective things she could use there. Her Katons and Futons could contribute nothing, her Suitons could at least put out Madara's Katon and carry things such as Gaara's sand and Ay's electricity.
> 
> Jinton and Doton were the most effective things he could use there. Once again Katons and Futons contribute nothing, they don't have the defensive or offensive measures needed in this fight.
> 
> ...



How is V2 the most effective thing he can do to an edo that regen's from his attacks? I'd like to hear this, also it looks like A was in V2 here and here so I wouldn't he didn't use it. 



> He's likely to do the same with Tsunade.
> 
> Ay not using V2 is like Tsunade pulling her punch while trying to bust Susano'o as opposed to not summoning.
> 
> But if you disagree, then just ignore me, because once again I see the match going the same way.



As I already said you can think he won't use V2 at the start, I personally don't care about that.


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## trance (Jun 10, 2013)

Why would Ei not use V2 right off the bat? He's up against someone ALOT stronger than him and with a broken regeneration jutsu, and the personal trusted summon and weapon of a former Hokage, who was known as the strongest Kage of his time. He has no reason not to go all out, even if it's just against Tsunade.


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## Winchester Gospel (Jun 10, 2013)

Pirate, with your first post you created a false dilemma saying that either I'd have to believe that Bee was ridiculously, impossibly fast, or admit that my own argument wasn't sound. You've completely ignored the potential for those panels from Minato vs. A to be interpreted in any way other than your own in order to force that dichotomy onto me, and you're still doing it in your first paragraph here.

I honestly cannot understand what you're trying to say with your second and third paragraphs, but if the panel or counter-evidence that I'm ignoring is in fact the one you've cited in your first post, then it seems to me that you've responded to my first paragraph without reading my second where I posted my alternative theory.

And really, my interpretation is quite simple: neither you nor I know how much time occurred between the panel of A readying himself to attack Minato and the panel of Minato appearing behind Bee. I'm claiming that a brief amount of time has passed because there was an exchange of dialogue and a chance for Bee to reposition himself in that time, and you've claimed that this explanation is too 'nitpicky'.

However, I don't find it any more 'nitpicky' than you bringing up the hand position of a peripheral character from one panel in the first place, and most importantly, you haven't offered me another explanation. Your one and only interpretation of the panel suggests that we must 'give kid Bee god-hand speed' and it doesn't seem like you agree with that, so... what are you doing then? Are you just ignoring the panel? I thought that's what I was doing.

I think your final paragraph is finding too much offence where there wasn't any intended. I'm not talking about the Battledome, nor am I talking about anything other than the post with which you've addressed me, which claims that either I'm deliberately 'fudging canon' or ignoring counter-evidence (both of which are accusations equivalent to the ones you've accused me of making) because the explanation I gave was too 'nitpicky' for your tastes.

You gave me two choices, I picked a third, you disagreed with it, and now tell me that I've only the ability to see two possible explanations when really, I'm just addressing those two because one's yours and one's mine. If you have another, feel free to share, but I'm not closing myself to other possibilities simply because I've rejected the one you've given me.


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## tanman (Jun 10, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> IIRC, A was able to "stand his ground" against one of Bee's lariats.
> 
> *Tsunade is stronger than he is.* If they clash in a match of power - which will happen if he tries to lariat her - she will win.



How do you figure? I would claim the opposite _because_ A could stand his ground.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 10, 2013)

tanman said:


> How do you figure? I would claim the opposite _because_ A could stand his ground.



Tsunade has a boss slug that Ei has no way of harming. Its ability to overwhelm him and launch such wide AoE attacks indisputably make Tsunade the stronger Kage. 

If you're talking physical strength, Madara bluntly stated she was the physically stronger Kage. Her ability to wield Gamabunta's tanto and smash through Madara's Susano'o should have made that fairly obvious anyway.

____

The majority saying Ei wins here seem to ignore Katsuyu's presence on the battlefield. The biggest claim here is that Ei's prior knowledge of Tsunade's regeneration mean he will go V2 off the bat and aim for the head, but no one takes into consideration that Tsunade's prior knowledge of Ei's V2 speed mean she can summon Katsuyu off the bat and aim to _overwhelm_ him.

Its not as though Tsunade has never used her slug off the bat either. The moment she overcame her blood phobia and began to fight Orochimaru, summoning Katsuyu was the first thing she did. 

Against Madara Tsunade probably chose to save Katsuyu for support purposes in the event that he managed to kill her somehow. Katsuyu's colossal size also would have served as a hindrance on the battlefield in some cases. In this scenario Tsunade has seen Ei's entire arsenal, and knows he can't even put a scratch on her summon. And since its a 1v1 the slug's size won't matter. 

Whether or not Tsunade can defeat him in straight CQC doesn't matter, with Katsuyu's help her victory is guaranteed.​​


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## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade has a boss slug that Ei has no way of harming. Its ability to overwhelm him and launch such wide AoE attacks indisputably make Tsunade the stronger Kage.
> 
> If you're talking physical strength, Madara bluntly stated she was the physically stronger Kage. Her ability to wield Gamabunta's tanto and smash through Madara's Susano'o should have made that fairly obvious anyway.
> 
> ...



It just depends if Tsunade can form the handseals, Summon Katsuyu (KAtsuyu should be aware of what's happening) and get inside Katsuyu before Ei is on her face with intent of beheading her.

In a battle of who does their move first, i'd say Ei would with his superior reflexes and almost instant speed. He's faster than Mifune by a mile and the guy's speed prevents you of forming handseals, of course, depending on the distance. But 40 meters is not something big for a Shinobi. Let alone Ei.

I also don't think that Katsuyu can hit Ei at all. (Tsunade either if she's inside the slug). But this is  another thing since i believe Ei would get to her faster than Tsunade can bite her finger, form the handseals and put her hands in the floor.

And since a cutting attack from Ei would surely cut her (Calling it head or even arms)...


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 10, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> It just depends if Tsunade can *form the handseals*, Summon Katsuyu (KAtsuyu should be aware of what's happening) and get inside Katsuyu before Ei is on her face with intent of beheading her.



She doesn't need to form seals [1] So it comes down to biting/scratching herself/gaining blood in some other way and tapping any kind of surface. It takes very little time at all, and Ei is clueless to how quickly she can summon. Tsunade doesn't need to get inside Katsuyu the moment she's summoned either, she can just sit on top of her head - which she ICly does.



> I also don't think that Katsuyu can hit Ei at all. (Tsunade either if she's inside the slug). But this is  another thing since i believe Ei would get to her faster than Tsunade can bite her finger, form the handseals and put her hands in the floor.



Katsuyu can divide into enough divisions to heal an entire village of people. That's an awful lot of divisions. Ei's difficulty will be such that he's trying to evade countless divisions flooring him, spitting acid at him, and trying to  around him. He will have to rely solely on evasion because if he tries chopping a division in half it divides and sticks to him. And while he's chopping it half other divisions are sticking to him - soon enough he's becoming slower and having to try and chop off all these divisions from his body, giving other divisions ample time to attack and surround him. Furthermore, since he has no knowledge of Katsuyu divisions, he won't know not to engage them in CQC.

Now, this is ignoring Tsunade. Who could inflict critical damage while the slugs are giving him trouble or holding him in place.



> And since a cutting attack from Ei would surely cut her (Calling it head or even arms)...



I don't believe he would get that opportunity, especially not whenever Tsunade has full knowledge on him.​​


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## FlamingRain (Jun 10, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> But if he does that his attack will still be faster than in V1.



No, the attack itself (the only thing relevant to my stance on this battle) is not going to still be faster. He will get to Tsunade's position faster, that is all. How fast he closes the distance has no bearing on what I'm saying. She can react to his actual chop and that's all she needs to do to end his life.



> If she's hit and survives, she cannot counter attack right away, therefore she will be doing nothing.



And you've missed what I'm saying again if you're trying to argue this.

For one Hiraishin's disappearance sequence is instantaneous, as well as his appearance sequence- there is however a small time frame between the actual appearance and disappearance- which is why Ay was trying to guess which Kunai Minato would go to in order to surprise him and get him there.

You keep wording your replies as if I'm saying she'll take his strike and then strike him back. Even on the off chance that isn't what you think I mean, I'll clarify anyway just to be sure. I'm saying she strikes him _at the same time he strikes her_.

I don't care if me moves fast _after_ he attacks, which he doesn't anyway, because whatever the mess Raikage does _after_ he attacks Tsunade is not concerned with, she only has to concern herself the time _during_ his strike.

Raikage will not avoid what I'm proposing unless he were to attack and dodge _at the exact same time_, which is impossible for him to do.

She will counter _as_ she's hit, not after, I've said this multiple times, and his _actual attack _is something she _can_ react to regardless of however fast his Shunshin is to get there.

What you're proposing is suggesting that Raikage can attack and dodge faster than he can throw his attack- which makes zero sense.



> His V2 speed makes up for that



It doesn't make up for that at all, as his striking speed never changes. Movement and striking speed are not synonymous and they won't become synonymous because you keep repeating that he can leave her field of vision. He does not throw his attacks so fast that people are unable to react to them, and that's why he will get tagged by Tsunade. His Shunshin isn't good for anything other than getting in close and backing away no matter how fast it is, neither of which will accomplish anything without him throwing strikes- strikes Tsunade can register and match. So she'll react unless you're going to tell me Tsunade can't react to her own punch- in which case: .



> I'm talking about dodging.



And I'm not.

She's as reflexive as she needs to be to react to his strike and she throws her own strikes at the same speed, his Shunshin does not matter at this point. Ay wasn't going to Shunshin _into_ Minato, he Shunshin'd to his position. Minato saw him despite being surprised by having seen his speed _for the first time_, and threw his punch like he normally does. Had he been about to Shunshin into Minato he would have continued far past the point at which he did after throwing the punch. And the Fourth reacted with absolute calm expressed on his face the second time Ay tried to attack him, meaning Minato's initial expression was nothing more than a surprise factor and in no way implies he could only barely keep up with Ay's speed- Tsunade has seen Ay's full speed before, she faces no surprise factor like Minato, and she also has an anticipation factor that Minato lacked in her favor as well.



> They couldn't dodge and that's my point



Tsunade does not need to dodge and that's _my_ point. Whether she blocks (if her head is a problem for you) she'll pull a ready-stance with her forearm meeting his and stopping his chop as she hits him with her other fist or foot, or whether she skips that and just throws her attack at him as soon as he appears rearing his back and relies on regen, Ay is going to get hit _when_ he hits her, but Ay doesn't regenerate after they get wrecked.

Whether he could and would are two different things anyway: he was facing a regenerator in Madara as well and went for a punch instead of a slice- Ay seemingly thinks Tsunade has to be exhausted before she can be killed anyway (in some translations- the first ones I read, and since the others say "eventually" or "if you keep that up" it's just as likely to mean the same as exhaust as it is anything else).

Once Byakugo goes up he may very well just not figure decapitation be any more effective than anything else he could do. Because it would take Madara a second to regrow his head as well, seconds they could use to seal him, but apparently a punch was more favored here.



> If her head is cut, the brain would not be able to send signals to her body and Byakugo would be useless.



Byakugo is not a conscious technique- once activated it automatically maintains itself without Tsunade's conscious input. In addition to that Byakugo's seal (not the Infuin) covers her entire body, not just her head, which leads me to believe the rest of that seal would send the required chakra to her head to restore it. So I will disagree that Byakugo would be useless.



> He has no reason to kill Tsunade either.



I know, and that much is irrelevant to my point. He's portraying Tsunade as being in grave danger, so if a headshot could bypass her regeneration there is no point in Kishimoto going out of his way to waste panels explaining that she used all of her chakra up before the attack.



> the databook is flawed.



The databook isn't why I believe what I do, though. Even then, the databook is no more inconsistent than the manga itself, and it's an official source of information written by Kishimoto. Unless you can definitively prove it wrong, it's your word versus the author's, and I would side with the latter.



> the feat is Oonoki's.



Um, that's the issue. Ay always does that, if it grants Onoki the time to activate a jutsu it will grant Tsunade the time to throw a punch or kick.

This kind of transitive logic _does _work here because outside of that Tsunade has actually been _more_ impressive in the speed department than Onoki has, and even from just a logic perspective Tsunade- as the taijutsu master Kage, would possess greater reflexes/prediction ability than Onoki- the long-range ninjutsu specialist Kage. So we can do the same thing here we do with Jugo and Suigetsu versus Kages against V1. Ay's tendency against Madara will also be present against Tsunade, and they'll trade shots as a result of that.



> Even if he's not. His speed will allow him to get her blindspots.



She'll pay attention to her blindspots then. Ay at her from a blindspot will be no harder to predict than Sasori coming at Sakura's blindspots was- and her anticipation ability, vastly inferior to Tsunade's, alerted her to this threat and allowed her to do something about it. Tsunade does not have to spend the time trying to analyze Ay's style either as she already knows it, and it isn't like she has to turn around and then throw her strike- she can just perform a back-kick in his direction and achieve the same result she would if he were coming from the front. And again he didn't Shunshin without stopping against Minato, his punch simply carried him forward after it failed to meet with any resistance.

Ay will be getting no clean shots from this woman, sorry.



> she can't.



She can, again because Ay is no more unpredictable than Sasori's myriad of puppets coming from multiple directions which Sakura was just getting used to whereas Tsunade will not be new to Ay's style, and Tsunade has reacted to attacks coming from out of her line of sight before against Kabuto.



> And Minato's expression says it all.



Karin says "even _if _he can't" not "even _though_ he can't", he was able to put up this defense to allow himself leeway _because_ he could react to Ay's appearance at least that time. Though she's referring to his enhanced Shunshin, which I'm not, so it really doesn't matter.

Minato's expression is one of surprise and nothing more, because he had never seen Ay's speed before (which Tsunade has). The second time Ay charges Minato is absolutely calm, Minato could follow his movements.

No, Ay did the same thing against Minato that he always does, but he missed his target and got tripped forward by his heavy swing.



> She's going to react to his V2 speed



She's going to react to his V2 strike as he performs it, yes.

Intuitive anticipation is always useful here.



> IF Ei is dumb



You're implying that if he aims for her head it's somehow going to go faster than if he were to aim for anywhere else. Ay's attack will be going at the same speed regardless of where he hits her, she'll react to a strike towards her neck like she would a strike anywhere else. It's rather ridiculous to think Tsunade couldn't put her arms up when young Bee sent a freaking Hachibi tentacle well over a dozen meters to stop someone with similar striking to Ay's own.



> They both appeared



I frankly don't care if it's a "dramatic interception" or not, they were attacking different opponents and had no reason to coordinate their attacks together to do so. They appeared at the same time and struck two different targets at the same time, which is not comparable to Kakashi and Gai _running_ alongside each other.



> We are assumng that he will move, stop and then attack.



Yes we are because that is what he always does.

And again he did the same thing against Minato that he always does, which is why he lags and stays in pretty much the same spot after the punch, otherwise he'd have run a couple dozen more feet.



> She will attack when he does IF she reacts to him.



She's reacting to his strike, forget his Shunshin. She has shown the reflexes to strike as he does because they did so on-panel, and she's been better than Onoki in that department who was also able to react to Ay's strikes.

If the OP didn't specify I'd assume he only has one since that's what _current_ Ay has.



> And i already showed why he can attack and dodge before she can hit him.



No you have not.



> none of them went serious.



Yes they were serious, he used his speed because if Onoki lightened him and he only reached V2 level speed it wouldn't change anything, the difference wasn't enough to get Ay through Susano'o.

To think any of the Kage would go up against Madara without being serious is ridiculous, regardless of how many allies they have, but especially here when the others are pre-occupied.


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## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> She doesn't need to form seals [1] So it comes down to biting/scratching herself/gaining blood in some other way and tapping any kind of surface. It takes very little time at all, and Ei is clueless to how quickly she can summon. Tsunade doesn't need to get inside Katsuyu the moment she's summoned either, she can just sit on top of her head - which she ICly does.​




I think that is because Kishi stopped drawing handseals a long time ago. But since i'm not Kishi... I think getting inside Katsuyu would be faster unless of course, she summons it below her. And if she makes Katsuyu divide (That's assuming it be that fast before Ei reaches). She won't be safe. There's not much time to summon, get on top, make it divide and get inside a mini clone before V2 gets there. Also, if it's a mini clone, Ei's cutting attack should be able to confortably cut mini Katsuyu, or the one that is covering Tsunade.



> Katsuyu can divide into enough divisions to heal an entire village of people. That's an awful lot of divisions. Ei's difficulty will be such that he's trying to evade countless divisions flooring him, spitting acid at him, and trying to  around him. He will have to rely solely on evasion because if he tries chopping a division in half it divides and sticks to him. And while he's chopping it half other divisions are sticking to him - soon enough he's becoming slower and having to try and chop off all these divisions from his body, giving other divisions ample time to attack and surround him. Furthermore, since he has no knowledge of Katsuyu divisions, he won't know not to engage them in CQC.



That is if there's enough time for them to do so. By the time Tsunade summons Katsuyu, Ei would be on her face. And Katsuyu would have to see Ei for that.



> Now, this is ignoring Tsunade. Who could inflict critical damage while the slugs are giving him trouble or holding him in place.



She would have to grab him distracted, and that's hard.



> I don't believe he would get that opportunity, especially not whenever Tsunade has full knowledge on him.


​
Having full knowledge won't stop him, though. She cannot follow his movements and Katsuyu either. We'll have to agree to disagree though, because i think that Ei will be on her shoes faster than she can summon and get inside Katsuyu or make it multiply.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 10, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> I think that is because Kishi stopped drawing handseals a long time ago.



Or that Tsunade has mastered the Kuchiyose to the point that she doesn't need hand seals. This is completely plausible since other shinobi with enough mastery in their field can reduce the number of handseals needed for techniques (see Tobirama avec Water Dragon technique). During the Pein arc Kishimoto also chose not to show her using any handseals for kuchiyose [1] And again during the Sannin fight [2] Every single time Katsuyu has been conjured no visible handseals were needed. Granted during the Sannin fight Tsunade did make one handseal, but by Part II (where she's back in shape and stronger) no such seal is needed.



> But since i'm not Kishi... I think getting inside Katsuyu would be faster unless of course, she summons it below her. And if she makes Katsuyu divide (That's assuming it be that fast before Ei reaches). She won't be safe. *There's not much time to summon, get on top*, make it divide and get inside a mini clone before V2 gets there. Also, if it's a mini clone, Ei's cutting attack should be able to confortably cut mini Katsuyu, or the one that is covering Tsunade.



You make it sound like summoning Katsuyu and getting on top of her head would require two seperate actions, when in fact she can summon the slug below her and subsequently appear on her head simultaneously. As for dividing, I'm going to go ahead and assume the match-up plays out like it did in the Sannin fight - Katsuyu _spits acid_, and Ei dodges (albeit with difficulty given the scale of the attack). He then comes in close to _attack Tsunade_ while she's on top of Katsuyu. Katsuyu then divides while Ei is on top of the slug and he goes _flying through the air_ with countless divisions. The slugs then stick to him in mid-air, and begin to reform into the larger Katsuyu with Ei stuck inside.

Tsunade remains untouched.

Bare in mind Katsuyu doesn't need to divide her entire body up either, she can select specific parts to break off or divide [1] Tsunade can stay on top of Katsuyu while she breaks apart/absorbs whatever part of her body Ei is on. 



> That is if there's enough time for them to do so. By the time Tsunade summons Katsuyu, Ei would be on her face. And Katsuyu would have to see Ei for that.



Unless she lacks the ability to feel, she'll know if Ei is scaling her body or running up her back. And yes, she'll definitely have enough time to divide since Ei can in no way pressure her in battle. The only one he can pressure is Tsunade, but she's at no risk as long as Katsuyu is on the field.



> She would have to grab him distracted, and that's hard.



Its not hard to distract him at all whenever she has literally thousands of distractions. Its quite the contary.



> Having full knowledge won't stop him, though. She cannot follow his movements and Katsuyu either. We'll have to agree to disagree though, because i think that Ei will be on her shoes faster than she can summon and get inside Katsuyu or make it multiply.



I think you're under-rating Tsunade's ability to bite her thumb and tap the ground/her arm/wrist/abdomen/any other part of her body then. To assume Ei could boost up his chakra shroud, shunshin, and then hit her before she can perform such a simple feat is pushing it an awful lot. I'm afraid I see no validity in your argument. But agree to disagree if you wish.​​


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## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> No, the attack itself (the only thing relevant to my stance on this battle) is not going to still be faster. He will get to Tsunade's position faster, that is all. How fast he closes the distance has no bearing on what I'm saying. She can react to his actual chop and that's all she needs to do to end his life.



Proof that she can't react? You're assuming she can react to that punch (Of course assuming that Ei's striking speed doesn't increase) when she cannot see him. I think you should know what a blitz is. If their speed was equaled, then yeah, but they are not. By having absolute advantage in speed, even if his attack is slower than hers (It's not, it's faster still), he will have the upper advantage because *she cannot see him when he appears*. I seriously don't know when Tsunade got these godly reflexes as to figure out where Ei is going to appear and attack him and hitting him at the same time he appears to launch his attack. He doesn't need to stop to do it.

And you've missed what I'm saying again if you're trying to argue this.



> For one Hiraishin's disappearance sequence is instantaneous, as well as his appearance sequence- there is however a small time frame between the actual appearance and disappearance- which is why Ay was trying to guess which Kunai Minato would go to in order to surprise him and get him there.



Of course there is not a small frame of the actual appearance. This is why it's called instant. He instantly appears on the targeted destination. And Ei was about to move there just after he moved. But this has nothing to do since you're implying that Tsunade will attack at the same time as him. Something i don't see happening if she can't see where he is going to attack and cannot react to his speed, therefore giving him a much bigger advantage and chances to initiate his attack first than her.



> You keep wording your replies as if I'm saying she'll take his strike and then strike him back. Even on the off chance that isn't what you think I mean, I'll clarify anyway just to be sure. I'm saying she strikes him _at the same time he strikes her_.



Something impossible _unless_ she can see him. It doesn't matter if his attacks are even slower than hers. She cannot attack at the same time as him if she's blitzed.



> I don't care if me moves fast _after_ he attacks, which he doesn't anyway, because whatever the mess Raikage does _after_ he attacks Tsunade is not concerned with, she only has to concern herself the time _during_ his strike.



He implied that with Minato. If he planned to take him down knowing that Minato can instantly teleport out of the battlefield then he is more than capable of attacking (Something he will do first than Tsunade because she cannot see him) and moving away pretty fast.



> Raikage will not avoid what I'm proposing unless he were to attack and dodge _at the exact same time_, which is impossible for him to do.



Of course he cannot attack and dodge at the same time. What i'm implying is that Tsunade cannot attack at the same time as him. She's not that good.



> She will counter _as_ she's hit, not after, I've said this multiple times, and his _actual attack _is something she _can_ react to regardless of however fast his Shunshin is to get there.



Let's see. If he shunshin before she can react leaving her field of vision, how will she attack at the same time as him? Launching lucky punches to the air? This makes no sense. She will have to initiate her attack guessing where he would be BEFORE Ei moves. Because after he moves she will not see him. This makes no sense at all. I doubt that even a sensor can do that.



> What you're proposing is suggesting that Raikage can attack and dodge faster than he can throw his attack- which makes zero sense.



That doesn't make sense. I implied that Ei will attack, hit her before her and dodge before she can attack. And that's a given. She's not attacking at the same time as him.


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## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2013)

Had to cut the post in two.



> It doesn't make up for that at all, as his striking speed never changes. Movement and striking speed are not synonymous and they won't become synonymous because you keep repeating that he can leave her field of vision. He does not throw his attacks so fast that people are unable to react to them, and that's why he will get tagged by Tsunade. His Shunshin isn't good for anything other than getting in close and backing away no matter how fast it is, neither of which will accomplish anything without him throwing strikes- strikes Tsunade can register and match. So she'll react unless you're going to tell me Tsunade can't react to her own punch- in which case: .



For this to work Tsunade should have the same striking speed as him. Naruto could barely block it, Madara as well, both with much better reflexes than her. AND Tsunade should know where Ei will attack and launch a funny guessing punch. Tsunade has her limits. Even if Tsunade could register his striking speed (I don't believe that Tsunade has the same striking speed as Ei), if she can't see where he is going to attack, how will she attack at the same time?



> And I'm not.
> 
> She's as reflexive as she needs to be to react to his strike and she throws her own strikes at the same speed, his Shunshin does not matter at this point.



Of course it matters. It matters to blitz her. You're assuming he will blitz her, step before her, look at her breasts for one second and will attack. No. He will blitz her and attack. If she's blitzed how the fuck can she attack at the same time? . This doesn't make sense at all.

She's not that reflexive and hasn't shown anything near that.



> Ay wasn't going to Shunshin _into_ Minato, he Shunshin'd to his position. Minato saw him despite being surprised by having seen his speed _for the first time_, and threw his punch like he normally does. Had he been about to Shunshin into Minato he would have continued far past the point at which he did after throwing the punch. And the Fourth reacted with absolute calm expressed on his face the second time Ay tried to attack him, meaning Minato's initial expression was nothing more than a surprise factor and in no way implies he could only barely keep up with Ay's speed- Tsunade has seen Ay's full speed before, she faces no surprise factor like Minato, and she also has an anticipation factor that Minato lacked in her favor as well.



No, Ei was running towards him just like he did to Naruto. This is why he kept momentum and crashed with a rock. And nothing suggest he stopped into Minato's position to launch a punch. This is assumption and an stupid move in his part because if his striking speed was like Tsunade, he would be wasting the shunshin. He clearly attempted to hit Minato at the same time he moved towards him.





> Tsunade does not need to dodge and that's _my_ point. Whether she blocks (if her head is a problem for you) she'll pull a ready-stance with her forearm meeting his and stopping his chop as she hits him with her other fist or foot, or whether she skips that and just throws her attack at him as soon as he appears rearing his back and relies on regen, Ay is going to get hit _when_ he hits her, but Ay doesn't regenerate after they get wrecked.



Again, assuming she will attack at the first time, Ei will attack in front of her and that he will stop to say hello to her. Because even if he stops, he should be more ready than Tsunade to launch a punch, therefore he will still hit her first. 



> Whether he could and would are two different things anyway: he was facing a regenerator in Madara as well and went for a punch instead of a slice- Ay seemingly thinks Tsunade has to be exhausted before she can be killed anyway (in some translations- the first ones I read, and since the others say "eventually" or "if you keep that up" it's just as likely to mean the same as exhaust as it is anything else).
> 
> Once Byakugo goes up he may very well just not figure decapitation be any more effective than anything else he could do. Because it would take Madara a second to regrow his head as well, seconds they could use to seal him, but apparently a punch was more favored here.



Yet, Madara not killing her has nothing to do with her not being able to die in battle with Byakugo. She hasn't shown to regrow a new head.

That has to do nothing with Tsunade since Madara's regeneration is instant and the head will regrow it doesn't matter what happens. Edo regeneration is of course superior to Byakugo. If she keeps that up she will die doesn't imply she can regrow a new head and that she's unkillable with it.

We're taking Raikage for a stupid guy here not to figure out that beheading would deal much more damage than stabbing her. Something he saw didn't work.



> Byakugo is not a conscious technique- once activated it automatically maintains itself without Tsunade's conscious input. In addition to that Byakugo's seal (not the Infuin) covers her entire body, not just her head, which leads me to believe the rest of that seal would send the required chakra to her head to restore it. So I will disagree that Byakugo would be useless.



Regrowing a new head?



> I know, and that much is irrelevant to my point. He's portraying Tsunade as being in grave danger, so if a headshot could bypass her regeneration there is no point in Kishimoto going out of his way to waste panels explaining that she used all of her chakra up before the attack.



If Tsunade couldn't die then Kishi could've made Madara cut her head as well. It doesn't matter since she will regrow it. Kishi not doing it doesn't imply she can.



> The databook isn't why I believe what I do, though. Even then, the databook is no more inconsistent than the manga itself, and it's an official source of information written by Kishimoto. Unless you can definitively prove it wrong, it's your word versus the author's, and I would side with the latter.



Battledome is where feat prevails. Yeah the jutsu description in the databook has been proven wrong over and over again. If we take that for granted, we can say that Amaterasu burns as hot as the sun. If we follow the "impossible to die by any means" we can say that Tsunade can regenerate from being completely disintegrated.



> Um, that's the issue. Ay always does that, if it grants Onoki the time to activate a jutsu it will grant Tsunade the time to throw a punch or kick.



If Galactus can Tsunade can? I battled with this If Kyuubi can Susano'o can. Onoki made something that didn't asked him to move at all. Tsunade has to see the Raikage AND move. And, she's not that reflexive. 



> This kind of transitive logic _does _work here because outside of that Tsunade has actually been _more_ impressive in the speed department than Onoki has, and even from just a logic perspective Tsunade- as the taijutsu master Kage, would possess greater reflexes/prediction ability than Onoki- the long-range ninjutsu specialist Kage. So we can do the same thing here we do with Jugo and Suigetsu versus Kages against V1. Ay's tendency against Madara will also be present against Tsunade, and they'll trade shots as a result of that.



No they would not. You're comparing activating something without moving when he doesn't need to keep sight on Ei than moving and launching a punch SEEING where Ei would appear. I mean, if it's gated Gai whose striking speed makes Ei's movement speed shit, then yeah. But Tsunade? Hell no.



> She'll pay attention to her blindspots then. Ay at her from a blindspot will be no harder to predict than Sasori coming at Sakura's blindspots was- and her anticipation ability, vastly inferior to Tsunade's, alerted her to this threat and allowed her to do something about it. Tsunade does not have to spend the time trying to analyze Ay's style either as she already knows it, and it isn't like she has to turn around and then throw her strike- she can just perform a back-kick



Sasori's attacks are not as fast as Ei. She cannot see Ei and she doesn't have Byakugan. She cannot cover all her blindspots and again, she cannot attack at the same time as Ei not even having the same striking speed if she cannot see him.

Assuming Tsunade will guess Ei's presence, launch a kick to the air is more likely than he doing it. I don't buy it. Knowledge works both sides.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 10, 2013)

_*TheIronMan*_, I'm sorry, but we're not going to reach an agreement on this topic  and I am not replying to all of that. My perception of Ay's speed, and seemingly speed in general, is simply too different than yours. We'll just have to agree to disagree, but here's my standing view of this match.

Ay's beast-mode Shunshin is excellent for him _because_ it serves the purpose of getting him into close range, and that purpose only as his Shunshin does not increase how quickly he strikes.

However, his strikes are not so fast that they're impossible to react to no matter which form he takes, as he only uses his speed to get into range to use his gigantic, wide, strength-focused swings to crush his foe. He doesn't concern himself with being countered because most of the time whatever his opponent counters with won't stop him and won't hurt him. That is his style.

I firmly believe that Tsunade's Taijutsu style is a good counter for Ay's own, as she has the cards in her favor that 99% of his opponents don't: she possesses the power to bust through his defense (Madara Susano'o busting strength, etc); she possesses the reflexes and anticipatory skills to throw strikes at targets moving at incredibly high speeds (matched his striking speed against Madara/Muu, noticed him begin his punch and called for him to stop before he landed it against Naruto, etc); and finally she possesses the ability to do this even at the cost of sustaining heavy injury herself thanks to her resilience and regeneration (which I don't believe can be circumvented by removing her head).

That out of the way, I simply do not see Ay winning this and at least at this point in time, your points do not sway the confidence I have in my position on this match- just as I can see I have not swayed yours. So this is going to be my last reply to this topic of debate.


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## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Or that Tsunade has mastered the Kuchiyose to the point that she doesn't need hand seals. This is completely plausible since other shinobi with enough mastery in their field can reduce the number of handseals needed for techniques (see Tobirama avec Water Dragon technique). During the Pein arc Kishimoto also chose not to show her using any handseals for kuchiyose [1] And again during the Sannin fight [2] Every single time Katsuyu has been conjured no visible handseals were needed. Granted during the Sannin fight Tsunade did make one handseal, but by Part II (where she's back in shape and stronger) no such seal is needed.​




Fair enough.



> You make it sound like summoning Katsuyu and getting on top of her head would require two seperate actions, when in fact she can summon the slug below her and subsequently appear on her head simultaneously.



Bitting her finger and placing her hand on the floor are two separate actions. Not summoning it and getting in the head.



> As for dividing, I'm going to go ahead and assume the match-up plays out like it did in the Sannin fight - Katsuyu _spits acid_, and Ei dodges (albeit with difficulty given the scale of the attack). He then comes in close to _attack Tsunade_ while she's on top of Katsuyu. Katsuyu then divides while Ei is on top of the slug and he goes _flying through the air_ with countless divisions. The slugs then stick to him in mid-air, and begin to reform into the larger Katsuyu with Ei stuck inside.
> 
> Tsunade remains untouched.



We have no evidence of Katsuyu?s superb reaction feats as to assume the slug will divide faster than Ei will strike Tsunade after he gets there.



> Bare in mind Katsuyu doesn't need to divide her entire body up either, she can select specific parts to break off or divide [1] Tsunade can stay on top of Katsuyu while she breaks apart/absorbs whatever part of her body Ei is on.



But the slug will have a hard time doing so if Ei is constantly moving at high speed with his V2 shunshin in Katsuyu towards Tsunade.



> Unless she lacks the ability to feel, she'll know if Ei is scaling her body or running up her back.



How big is Katsuyu? As big as the monument of the Kages in Konoha? Because Hiruzen, who is physically weaker than Ei landed on top of that with a single jump. Ei should have no problems replicating that.



> And yes, she'll definitely have enough time to divide since Ei can in no way pressure her in battle. The only one he can pressure is Tsunade, but she's at no risk as long as Katsuyu is on the field.



I still don't see Katsuyu's reaction feats to assume it won't be pressured by V2 Ei.



> Its not hard to distract him at all whenever she has literally thousands of distractions. Its quite the contary.



I thought Tsunade was going to be on top of Katsuyu and not thousands of distractions. Katsuyu has to react to Ei in order to do something to him. Ei can run and step on the summon while running and if it doesn't have the necesary reflexes and speed in order to grab him bfore he moves then it's not doing it.



> I think you're under-rating Tsunade's ability to bite her thumb and tap the ground/her arm/wrist/abdomen/any other part of her body then. To assume Ei could boost up his chakra shroud, shunshin, and then hit her before she can perform such a simple feat is pushing it an awful lot. I'm afraid I see no validity in your argument. But agree to disagree if you wish.


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I find insulting that you say that to me when you said Katsuyu won't be pressured by Ei's speed .

But anyway, we both don't se validity on our arguments then. If Ei is not in Tsunade's face by the time Katsuyu is on the field, he will be too dam close and he can close that gap (after he's closer) relatively faster than anything Katsuyu would do. Simply saying katsuyu wont be pressured by Ei's speed is underrating it a lot as well. But i respect your diferent opinion.

*@Flamingrain*: it's the best though. I see Ei's speed diferent considering that he has shown not to stop when he's attacking (Naruto's example) and i don't see Tsunade as a reflexive beasts.


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