# Tsunade vs Sage Mode Naruto(Pre-War Arc)



## reiko96 (Jul 30, 2016)

Basically, the naruto following the pain arc in sage mode


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 30, 2016)

He feints Tsunade and hits her in the back of the skull with FRS and kills her.

Not only he has better feats, he was clearly portrayed stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Jul 30, 2016)

SM Naruto wins mid- high Diff I believe. I don't know if she could regenerate fast enough to survive Rasen Shuriken.

Are Ma and Pa here? Frog song GG

Gama Trio? GG

In the Pain fight Naruto was portrayed as being the only one in the entire village left who could stop Pain, so by that, we can basically agree SM Naruto Pre War arc>Tsunade.

But Tsunade isn't weak either, as she has shown great speed and (obviously) insane physical strength. 
But Naruto is just too fast for her, too intelligent (in battle) and also...this is the Naruto who defeated Pain, an insane feat.

My vote is Naruto, mid-high diff


----------



## Jay2016 (Jul 30, 2016)

Yea she's way to slow. She'll eventually be hit by a Rasen Shuriken.
This is Mid Difficulty at most.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 30, 2016)

Lol'd at gamatrio.

Tsunade can fodderize each with 1 hit.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## Mercurial (Jul 30, 2016)

SM Naruto is much faster and with better reflexes than Tsunade, her linear, slower and predictable physical attacks aren't touching someone who could easily dodge the 3rd Raikage's Jigokuzuki even at the very last moment. Naruto dodges Tsunade and breaks her neck with Kawazu Kumite or kills her by slamming a Cho Oodama Rasengan on her face.

Or Naruto just throws a Fuuton Rasenshuriken and Tsunade dies, she isn't fast enough to dodge it, she can't stop it, and she can't even tank it.

Anyway, Naruto wins this easily, low diff.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 2


----------



## Troyse22 (Jul 30, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Naruto dodges Tsunade and breaks her neck with Kawazu Kumite or kills her by slamming a Cho Oodama Rasengan on her face.



Naruto is just too smart in battle to get close to someone as strong as Tsunade, he'd stay mid distance, until he was sure he could end it with a Rasengan or one of its variants. No way he's going to try to engage her in Taijutsu.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## hbcaptain (Jul 30, 2016)

Tsunade can dodge long range and even surprise FRS, she is more reflexive than Tendo I guess. If Naruto plays it smart he would touch here elsewhere she dodges both of FRS and then beats Naruto in base . I favorise Naruto more times than not .


----------



## Troyse22 (Jul 30, 2016)

If Naruto can stay mid distance from Tsunade, Ma and Pa trap her in Genjutsu, and i'm not sure she'd have time to summon Katsuyu AND dodge Rasengans and Rasen Shruikens AND the Gamatrio. But it's never shown if Katsuyu can break Tsunade free of genjutsu that I can recall (unless i'm having some sort of super brain fart).

But I picture the fight going like this.

Naruto enters like he did against Pain. Ma and Pa start sage art frog song after generating enough sage chakra. Gamatrio and Naruto keep her busy until they can start, Ma and Pa start sage art frog song. She's trapped in genjutsu, Naruto slams a Rasengan in her face.


----------



## Sapherosth (Jul 30, 2016)

rasenshuriken will GG once it lands, which it will. Naruto's KB game is too strong for Tsunade's run and smash style and Rasenshuriken counters her healing hard.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 30, 2016)

Only thing that Naruto has that can put her down would be FRS upon which he only has two shots with and Tsunade has knowledge on it as well which gives her a better shot at avoiding getting hit and once Naruto goes back to base he's gonna lose so it depends on whether he can land FRS upon which I'd say this match could go either way


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jul 30, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> SM Naruto is much faster and with better reflexes than Tsunade, her linear, slower and predictable physical attacks aren't touching someone who could easily dodge the 3rd Raikage's Jigokuzuki even at the very last moment. Naruto dodges Tsunade and breaks her neck with Kawazu Kumite or kills her by slamming a Cho Oodama Rasengan on her face.
> 
> Or Naruto just throws a Fuuton Rasenshuriken and Tsunade dies, she isn't fast enough to dodge it, she can't stop it, and she can't even tank it.
> 
> Anyway, Naruto wins this easily, low diff.



I think you're oversimplifying things a lot; Naruto "_easily_" dodged the Sandaime Raikage's attack only after having spent time observing his movements, being assisted by the various members of the Shinobi Alliance and getting advice from the Hachibi. In fact, without the latter two, Naruto would have probably died, either from getting killed when he was burned out and vulnerable to attacks _1_ or because he took too long figuring out his weakness.

He might have figured out a way eventually, but there's no doubt in my mind that Naruto would have had a far rougher time against the Sandaime Raikage if he didn't have that battalion soaking up his attention and attacks for so long. An entire chapter (which is roughly how long it took for him to finally reach Naruto) is a long time to spend observing.

Besides that, War Arc Naruto also had the benefit of being able to use Sage Mode more or less instantly and, presumably, use it for longer. This one doesn't have that. Either way, Naruto isn't beating a Kage-level opponent with low difficulty, and this fight is nowhere near as simple as him dodging Tsunade's attack, breaking her neck with a single hit and hitting her with a big Rasengan. Do you have any idea how unfeasible that scenario would even be?

For one thing, it'd require Tsunade to have a body as frail as Preta Realm (the only person in the manga to have ever been taken out by a single hit with the frog katas), which isn't possible unless she's completely exhausted herself with regeneration. And for another thing, it'd also require Tsunade to stand completely still while Naruto raises his hands in the air and gathers chakra for his Rasengan.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 30, 2016)

Naruto Mid Diffs her,and it is Mid because of Byakugo.

He has advantage in every aspect except Healing and Physical Power,but he sure has good Durability,Recovery and good enough Physical capabilities thanks to SM,not to mention Kawazu Kumite and Speed quite above Tsunades slightly above average Speed!


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Jul 30, 2016)

Tsunade will win mid diff if it's SM Naruto by himself, but if he has the assistance of Ma, Pa, and the whole Gamatrio then he wins with mid difficulty.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Veracity (Jul 30, 2016)

8-10% Katsuyu lmao. I wonder how that would deal with FRS.


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 30, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> 8-10% Katsuyu lmao. I wonder how that would deal with FRS.


She could possibly tank it but Katsuyu would be eaten by Yatai Kuzushi & Gamabunta in one bite. Toad > Slug.

Naruto takes this mid-high difficulty. He was portrayed to have surpassed Minato & Jiraiya which is hardly true but whatever. He has enough feats to put Tsunade down. FRS takes her out sooner or later. She'd need full knowledge to win and even then it's iffy.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Veracity (Jul 30, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> She could possibly tank it but Katsuyu would be eaten by Yatai Kuzushi & Gamabunta in one bite. Toad > Slug.
> 
> Naruto takes this mid-high difficulty. He was portrayed to have surpassed Minato & Jiraiya which is hardly true but whatever. He has enough feats to put Tsunade down. FRS takes her out sooner or later. She'd need full knowledge to win and even then it's iffy.


I'm not saying she wins, but Katsuyu isn't being eaten by Bunta lol. It can split and shoot acid..... Also 5% Katsuyu might be weaker than bunta, but 8-10% is much different.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 30, 2016)

SM Naruto should win, easily, not only is he faster she has no feasible way of landing a hit.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 30, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> SM Naruto should win, easily, not only is he faster she has no feasible way of landing a hit.


Not necessarily. Terrain manipulation can throw him off balance and give Tsunade a possible opening. Not that it isn't a longshot but it's definitely possible.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 30, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Not necessarily. Terrain manipulation can throw him off balance and give Tsunade a possible opening. Not that it isn't a longshot but it's definitely possible.


Given SM Naruto's Sage Sensing, I don't see it being a possibility.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Jul 30, 2016)

what gets me is their notion of ''terrain manipulation'' like its some sort of slick, pinpoint, do'ton jutsu that will stun/corner-off individual targets, instead of acknowledging the desperate, lackluster act of random _chaos en masse_ that it really is, smh...

they talk like its an analog of senpo: yomi numa or sumthn, lol

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 30, 2016)

Perhaps I should change my phrasing. If Tsunade uses Terrain Manipulation to throw Naruto off balance she _might_ be able to create an opening. It's a longshot though I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Jul 30, 2016)

where did sakura calculate _anything_ in that instance?
is not the purpose of it to create tactical diversion, intimidation & interference, slowing an advance to allow safe retreat & healing ops?

how ''might'' that be a plausible tactic against a _perfectly heightened_ sage who has a colossal toad w/ _unparalleled_ mobility. a transcendant wind jutsu that wipes _just as much_ AoE. and a horde of _indistinguishable_ dopplegangers?

I genuinely am at a loss for your reasoning


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 30, 2016)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> where did sakura calculate _anything_ in that instance? is not the purpose of it to create tactical diversion, intimidation & interference, slowing an advance to allow safe retreat & healing ops? how ''might'' that be a plausible tactic against a _perfectly heightened_ sage who has a colossal toad w/ _unparalleled_ mobility. a wind jutsu that wipes _just as much_ AoE. and a horde of _indistinguishable_ dopplegangers? I genuinely am at a loss for your reasoning


I was just looking at this simply. Terrain manipulation works as a distraction while Tsunade closes in with another monster strength punch. My money is on Naruto countering. Clones aren't going to work against terrain manipulation it will eliminate all of them. Toads are a good counter to this offensive tactic. Also FRS isn't the same AOE at all.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Jul 30, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I was just looking at this simplly


 too simply indeed


> Terrain manipulation works as a distraction


 not ITT thread, where it would hinder her vision, amount to a ''missed punch'' & leave her open for a blindside haymaker from a next-level taijutsu sniper.


> while Tsunade closes in with another monster strength punch


. this is antithetical. ''closing in'' and ''terrain manipulation'' are oil & water. even if she wanted to close naruto on her own terms and we pretend she is capable of doing so, she wouldnt create a mutual barrier between them just before.
I'm sorry that U can't correctly grasp the context of the panel u've posted





> My money is on Naruto countering


 conveniently assuming he'd be  threatened either way...





> Clones aren't going to work against terrain manipulation it will eliminate all of them.


 again w/ the phantom precision & misrepresentation. even in the panel you posted....nope


> Toads are a good counter to this offensive tactic.


 you don't say! but ''offensive'' tactic in the most vague sense, sure


> Also FRS isn't the same AOE at all.


No, if naruto threw it in a ditch or sammed it vertically into the ground, ala shannaroooo, thats exactly what the AoE would look like. And Frs also travels the horizontally which adds more potential AoE, hence it can ''wipe'' a path thru opposition


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 30, 2016)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> too simply indeed
> not ITT thread, where it would hinder her vision, amount to a ''missed punch'' & leave her open for a blindside haymaker from a next-level taijutsu sniper. this is antithetical. ''closing in'' and ''terrain manipulation'' are oil & water. even if she wanted to close naruto on her own terms and we pretend she is capable of doing so, she wouldnt create a mutual barrier between them just before. I'm sorry that U can't correctly grasp the context of the panel u've posted conveniently assuming he'd be  threatened either way... again w/ the phantom precision & misrepresentation. even in the panel you posted....nope


So what you're suggesting is that if Tsunade used Terrain Manipulation, she'd be creating a wall between herself and her enemy? Terrain Manipulation works in a lot of ways. The scan I posted was to show the sheer strength and size of her terrain manipulation.





> you don't say! but ''offensive'' tactic in the most vague sense, sure. No, if naruto threw it in a ditch or sammed it vertically into the ground, ala shannaroooo, thats exactly what the AoE would look like. And Frs also travels which adds more potential AoE


Bring some proof. Show me that Futon Rasenshuriken pounded into the ground could create an AOE that large. 

Whatever though, I've already agreed that Naruto wins this.


----------



## Ashi (Jul 31, 2016)

Tsunade's not some slow poke guys, she's held her own against Madara when it came to CQC and even intercepted an attack that Mei couldn't react to


Do I think she wins? No, but it's a toss up for sure

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 31, 2016)

FRS lands sooner than later naruto wins

he is faster, has better sensing and can 1 shot with a jutsu she will be hard pressed to avoid considering naruto doesnt use them directly


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> Tsunade's not some slow poke guys, she's held her own against Madara when it came to CQC and even intercepted an attack that Mei couldn't react to
> 
> Do I think she wins? No, but it's a toss up for sure


Yeah, you guys keep saying that but that was 5 vs 1, sure I give her credit for taijutsu, but even if she's up close in taijutsu 1 vs. 1 against SM Naruto, I don't think she's going to land a hit.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ashi (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, you guys keep saying that but that was 5 vs 1, sure I give her credit for taijutsu, but even if she's up close in taijutsu 1 vs. 1 against SM Naruto, I don't think she's going to land a hit.




That's a bit of a stretch, if Naruto focuses on dodging sure


But the second he goes in for a counter attack he's doomed


His only chance is to hit her with a long range Rasenshuriken which should work out

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> That's a bit of a stretch, if Naruto focuses on dodging sure
> 
> 
> But the second he goes in for a counter attack he's doomed
> ...


You're forgetting that he technically doesn't have to hit her at all, he can miss her and that's the beauty of the Frog Katas, however if and when he does connect, her body bounces just like Deva's did, except she doesn't have that level of durability or agility.


----------



## Ashi (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> You're forgetting that he technically doesn't have to hit her at all, he can miss her and that's the beauty of the Frog Katas, however if and when he does connect, her body bounces just like Deva's did, except she doesn't have that level of durability or agility.




She's pretty resilient, more so than Pain at least


Not even too Susanoo swords in the gut can stop her


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> She's pretty resilient, more so than Pain at least
> 
> 
> Not even too Susanoo swords in the gut can stop her


Yeah, she doesn't have the durability so she'll have to heal the damage if Naruto doesn't flat out TKO her, but given how well-versed Naruto is with Frog Katas, that'll happen sooner or later.


----------



## Ashi (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, she doesn't have the durability so she'll have to heal the damage if Naruto doesn't flat out TKO her, but given how well-versed Naruto is with Frog Katas, that'll happen sooner or later.




You're either wanking SM Naruto or downplaying Tsunade if you think He can win with just CQC and katas

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## reiko96 (Jul 31, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Are Ma and Pa here? Frog song GG. Gama Trio? GG


No. This is strictly a 1v1 fight.



Raikiri19 said:


> Or Naruto just throws a Fuuton Rasenshuriken and Tsunade dies, she isn't fast enough to dodge it, she can't stop it, and she can't even tank it.



I thought it was practically impossible to kill her due to the rebirth regen jutsu?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> You're either wanking SM Naruto or downplaying Tsunade if you think He can win with just CQC and katas


How is it wank though? I'm still trying to figure out how Tsunade, a slower and less durable shinobi manages to defeat SM Naruto. It's one thing if she was faster and Naruto could compensate with his sensing, however, Naruto is clearly faster with SM and has sensing to boot. In close range quarters, Tsunade doesn't even know about Frog Katas, I'd be shocked if Naruto didn't clinch it with just CQC/Frog Katas. FRS is a given auto-win but he could win with CQC/Katas.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Ashi (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> How is it wank though? I'm still trying to figure out how Tsunade, a slower and less durable shinobi manages to defeat SM Naruto. It's one thing if she was faster and Naruto could compensate with his sensing, however, Naruto is clearly faster with SM and has sensing to boot. In close range quarters, Tsunade doesn't even know about Frog Katas, I'd be shocked if Naruto didn't clinch it with just CQC/Frog Katas. FRS is a given auto-win but he could win with CQC/Katas.




What has Naruto shown in CQC that Tsunade can't handle? Her physical prowess is on par with Ay's

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> What has Naruto shown in CQC that Tsunade can't handle? Her physical prowess is on par with Ay's


A clone of Naruto was able to take down 3rd Raikage in SM, I'd say that qualifies, if you're looking for more, SM Naruto took out Hungry Ghost Realm w/a Frog Kata attack. No way Tsunade is going to be able to sense an attack coming like that when Nagato/Pain couldn't.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Ashi (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> A clone of Naruto was able to take down 3rd Raikage in SM, I'd say that qualifies, if you're looking for more, SM Naruto took out Hungry Ghost Realm w/a Frog Kata attack. No way Tsunade is going to be able to sense an attack coming like that when Nagato/Pain couldn't.




SM Naruto had A LOT of things going for him in that fight


Ghost realm is pretty weak physically, doesn't really compare to the hardest hitter in the manga bar the gods

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> SM Naruto should win, easily, not only is he faster she has no feasible way of landing a hit.


 SM Naruto's Frog Kata isn't going to do anything to someone as durable and resilient as Tsunade, especially with her Byakugo activated. Even without her Byakugo she can survive being cut in half and still remain conscious long enough to save the other Kage and keep herself alive. With it, she can survive being impaled through her whole abdomen multiple times and keep fighting despite multiple organs being ruptured, her spinal cord being severed, ect, she did state that the Jutsu made her pretty much immortal while it was active and she can regenerate organs as well as severed limbs. She is not going down to a punch to the head, that's just flat-out stupid.

Naruto engaging in CQC against Tsunade is suicide on his part, he cannot harm her and she can one-shot him. It's debatable and unlikely whether or not he can easily avoid her attacks anyway, but even if he can once she punches or kicks the ground then SM Naruto is sent flying like a ragdoll across the whole landscape and is now disoriented: leaving him open to be immediately hit by a follow-up that will end him.

Someone who can quickly cross a large distance to attack Edo Madara prompting him to use Susanoo to defend, can immediately attack Madara again (even after he was sent far away from her by Mei's Suiton) right after a flying/lightened V2 A did, can corner him prompting him to use a Mokuton Bunshin to avoid being sealed, can survive an encounter with five V3 legged Susanoos and even briefly overwhelm one of them using pure CQC skill alone, and can cross a large distance again and intercept a high-speed Katon from Madara in the same timespan it takes for Mei to form one hand seal while the other Kage all stand there looking helpless is not getting overwhelmed and one-shoted by Sage Mode Naruto in CQC.

His best bet is to stay away from her and rely on Kage Bunshins, that he can only make a handful of, and use smoke bombs as well as Kawarimis to get FRS to land. But with her having knowledge on Naruto's FRS she won't let him get a chance to do so, once he shrouds himself in a smoke cloud she can just punch the ground to decimate the entirety of the area disrupting him from doing whatever it is he is doing and dispersing his Kage Bunshin if not also causing his FRS to disperse while he's charging it. Even if he manages to fire it, Tsunade is fast enough to avoid it without a problem. These are all ways that Tsunade can deal with him, and this is excluding Katsuyu who would make this even easier. We're talking about Pain Arc SM Naruto here, not War Arc SM Naruto who has clearly gotten much stronger and can use Senjutsu much better.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 2


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 31, 2016)

As someone else said, the collateral damage of one of her strikes colliding with the ground after it misses Naruto could blow him into the air. At that point his evasion is meaningless. 

The only way he wins is if he gets a direct hit with FRS, which he might do. But even a non-direct hit can be regenerated from imo. If it's just an arm or part of her body caught in the explosion, she should still be able to recover because she has functional chakra tubes elsewhere in her body. But if her entire body is eaten in the blast, she's done. So I guess it depends on whether or not you think she can dodge (or at least partially dodge) FRS, which the Pein bodies, besides Animal Path, all managed to do. That includes the weaker Naraka Path, which even Konohamaru managed to hit.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Veracity (Jul 31, 2016)

Sage Naruto isn't winning in CQC Against Tsunade, like what ¿ His best bet is to keep his distance and connect with FRS.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Itachі (Jul 31, 2016)

SM Naruto is infinitely more versatile and resourceful than Tsunade, he tags her with a Rasenshuriken and ends it with low-medium difficulty.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> someone as durable


Let me stop you there, she's not durable by any stretch of the imagination. She gets cut and bleeds just as easily as the next shinobi. And for the rest of your assessment, the biggest flaw is that you don't account for the speed and sensing boosts Naruto gets in Sage Mode, plain and simple. She has no means of countering that, let alone attacking him head on would not only be a poor strategy, it's literally, suicide. He can move faster than her, perceive danger faster than her and has the SM-enhanced physical strength to push her back. He's demonstrated these feats against the Rhino-summon of Pain when he sent it flying. That alone should be enough to indicate that he can volley at her level, you guys are senile if you think SM Naruto is losing in CQC, especially after mastering Frog Katas.



NinjaTensa said:


> SM Naruto had A LOT of things going for him in that fight
> 
> 
> Ghost realm is pretty weak physically, doesn't really compare to the hardest hitter in the manga bar the gods


Yeah, it doesn't change the fact that he was able to sense and react to a faster opponent, who is excessively stronger than him physically, in close range combat.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Let me stop you there, she's not durable by any stretch of the imagination. She gets cut and bleeds just as easily as the next shinobi. And for the rest of your assessment, the biggest flaw is that you don't account for the speed and sensing boosts Naruto gets in Sage Mode, plain and simple. She has no means of countering that, let alone attacking him head on would not only be a poor strategy, it's literally, suicide. He can move faster than her, perceive danger faster than her and has the SM-enhanced physical strength to push her back. He's demonstrated these feats against the Rhino-summon of Pain when he sent it flying. That alone should be enough to indicate that he can volley at her level, you guys are senile if you think SM Naruto is losing in CQC, especially after mastering Frog Katas.


 A superior word would be resilience then, but that doesn't change the rest of what I said. I do account for what Naruto gets in SM, and what he has gotten does not indicate that he is beating Tsunade in CQC at all. I've literally posted Tsunade's superior CQC feats compared to Pain Arc SM Naruto's. You've pretty much ignored the entirety of my argument and haven't really given a good response, his strength is not comparable to her own. She can one-shot him, he cannot one-shot her, she can decimate the landscape and send him flying away and leave him stunned, and he has no way of countering her leaping right at him and punching/kicking him into oblivion afterwards.




> Yeah, it doesn't change the fact that he was able to sense and react to a faster opponent, who is excessively stronger than him physically, in close range combat.


 War Arc SM Naruto is not Pain Arc SM Naruto, stop giving them the same feats and viewing them as the same.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

Smoke bomb FRs feint 
1 FRs lands 
Easy win really 

Tsunade option is jump and punch or try punch an enemy who will be making every effort to keep away from her with clones and distractions 

Yh not seeing how tsunade wins based on how each of them fight


----------



## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Tsuande can tank Madara's Yasaka Magamata. She's plenty durable. I don't think Naruto is doing much with Kata's, especially when Tsuande has chakra to the feet technique and especially when Naruto knows she has a skill advantage and can obliterate him with a single blow.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Tsuande can tank Madara's Yasaka Magamata. She's plenty durable. I don't think Naruto is doing much with Kata's, especially when Tsuande has chakra to the feet technique and especially when Naruto knows she has a skill advantage and can obliterate him with a single blow.



What chakra to feet technique don't get u there 

But agreed Naruto won't win a cqc battle 

But doesn't need to actually engage in direct taijutsu 

Coming at her with cho Odama as a distraction to set up FRs however allows FRs to land 

All he needs to do is get her in the air she can't change her direction mid air without summoning which I guess would work 

But as far as resourcefulness and trickery Naruto has always been able to out think his enemy 
This is the guy that in base still could play the 5 second ST gap something Kakashi with assistance still didn't manage to do


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> A superior word would be resilience then, but that doesn't change the rest of what I said. I do account for what Naruto gets in SM, and what he has gotten does not indicate that he is beating Tsunade in CQC at all. I've literally posted Tsunade's superior CQC feats compared to Pain Arc SM Naruto's. You've pretty much ignored the entirety of my argument and haven't really given a good response, his strength is not comparable to her own. She can one-shot him, he cannot one-shot her, she can decimate the landscape and send him flying away and leave him stunned, and he has no way of countering her leaping right at him and punching/kicking him into oblivion afterwards.


I haven't ignored anything, it's just not possible for her to hit someone with superior speed and sage-sensing. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> War Arc SM Naruto is not Pain Arc SM Naruto, stop giving them the same feats and viewing them as the same.


How is it any different? Does Pain Arc Naruto not have sage sensing or superior speed than Tsunade?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> What chakra to feet technique don't get u there
> 
> But agreed Naruto won't win a cqc battle
> 
> ...



She used a chakra to the feet technique to negate the effects of ST.

And I don't necessarily think Tsuande wins.  I just see her winning CQC. Naruto would win if he utilized bunshin and summonings to create and opening for FRS.


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 1, 2016)

Tsunade has no way of hitting Naruto with SM sensing and he probably one-shots her with one punch or FRS, so it's mid/high diff for Naruto since she can still give him some trouble.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 1, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Tsunade has no way of hitting Naruto with SM sensing and* he probably one-shots her with one punch* or FRS, *so it's mid/high diff* for Naruto since she can still give him some trouble.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> She used a chakra to the feet technique to negate the effects of ST.
> 
> And I don't necessarily think Tsuande wins.  I just see her winning CQC. Naruto would win if he utilized bunshin and summonings to create and opening for FRS.



that's something fodder anbu could do. so that's not really noteworthy

I could see her win taijutsu obviously but cqc, perhaps not. cuz Naruto got clones, distrations and giant swirling rasegans he could use

I agree he will create an opening and that's how he wins.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Aug 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I haven't ignored anything, it's just not possible for her to hit someone with superior speed and sage-sensing.


 I literally told you what she did against Madara during the Gokage vs. Madara fight, and you're still saying that she cannot touch him. Nothing that Pain Arc SM Naruto has shown indicates that he can beat Tsunade in CQC, he will lose unless you can prove otherwise.




> How is it any different? Does Pain Arc Naruto not have sage sensing or superior speed than Tsunade?


 In the War Arc Naruto can pretty much go SM instantly, use an Odama Rasenshuriken, use a new Jutsu derived from Frog Kata, and now has reflexes superior to KCM Naruto who can dodge point-blank V2 A's Shunshin and you're saying that Pain Arc SM Naruto is the same. They are clearly quite different, even if it's only been a little bit of time Naruto got a whole lot stronger real fast.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I literally told you what she did against Madara during the Gokage vs. Madara fight, and you're still saying that she cannot touch him. Nothing that Pain Arc SM Naruto has shown indicates that he can beat Tsunade in CQC, he will lose unless you can prove otherwise.


Okay if you want to play it that way, with the other Gokage helping Tsunade, she'll be able to land a hit on SM Naruto. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> In the War Arc Naruto can pretty much go SM instantly, use an Odama Rasenshuriken, use a new Jutsu derived from Frog Kata, and now has reflexes superior to KCM Naruto who can dodge point-blank V2 A's Shunshin and you're saying that Pain Arc SM Naruto is the same. They are clearly quite different, even if it's only been a little bit of time Naruto got a whole lot stronger real fast.


Overall, in SM, Naruto is faster than her by a full tier at the very least and has the ability to sense and react to attacks quicker than normal. She is going to have to work very hard to land a single hit is all I'm getting at. Tsunade is doesn't have the juice to take on any SM-infused character (e.g. Jiraiya, Kabuto, Naruto).


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 1, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


>


Lol deep down you know it's true, there are literally NONE, ZERO (0) feats of Tsunade tanking something like FRS or SM punch.

Her strongest form, War Arc Tsunade, tanked Yasaka Magatama and Susanoo sword and those two attacks are probably even in force to SM punch, let alone SM FRS. And I am not even wanking here, I don't like this incarnation of Naruto and I love Madara but this is simple truth.

Seriously her portayal is one of the best, it literally speaks for itself, she is a medical ninja that created a technique which allows her to go in the front row of battle for a while because she can heal herself automatically while using her strong fists and kicks. Here, there it is. This is her character in few words and there's nothing more to it. She isn't immortal, just fucking admit it.

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 1, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Lol deep down you know it's true, there are literally NONE, ZERO (0) feats of Tsunade tanking something like FRS or SM punch. Her strongest form, War Arc Tsunade, tanked Yasaka Magatama and Susanoo sword and those two attacks are probably even in force to SM punch, let alone SM FRS. And I am not even wanking here, I don't like this incarnation of Naruto and I love Madara but this is simple truth. Seriously her portayal is one of the best, it literally speaks for itself, she is a medical ninja that created a technique which allows her to go in the front row of battle for a while because she can heal herself automatically while using her strong fists and kicks. Here, there it is. This is her character in few words and there's nothing more to it. She isn't immortal, just fucking admit it.


I agree FRS takes her out. A SM punch though? At its best it'll send her flying away, its not anything Sozo Saisei can't heal. Fact is if Naruto gets CQC he's taking an unnecessary risk, one that is likely to get him one-shotted.

Edit: I mean actually one-shotted. All of Tsunade opponents are people that can tank her punches (Orochimaru/Edo Madara). If she lands one punch on anyone who isn't close to immortal then its going to do _serious one-shotting damage._

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Mithos (Aug 1, 2016)

There is no chance a SM punch is taking her out. 

Deva Path got kicked and didn't get taken out, and SM Jiraiya, who should be of similar strength, succeeded in blinding a Path with a direct kick to the face. Tsunade is more durable and resilient than the Paths, and Byakugou will quickly patch her up from such relatively inconsequential damage. 

Naruto shouldn't attempt CQC like that to begin with though because she is more skilled than he is by a long shot. If she blocks, she can retaliate before he can get away. Or she may be able to grab his arm/leg and punch him. Sage sensing does not mean he can't be hit when he leaves himself open while attacking.

Reactions: Like 3 | Disagree 2


----------



## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> that's something fodder anbu could do. so that's not really noteworthy
> 
> I could see her win taijutsu obviously but cqc, perhaps not. cuz Naruto got clones, distrations and giant swirling rasegans he could use
> 
> I agree he will create an opening and that's how he wins.



Yeah so¿ it just means she can eat a Frog Kata without being pushed back 15 m.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Aug 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Okay if you want to play it that way, with the other Gokage helping Tsunade, she'll be able to land a hit on SM Naruto.


 The other Kage had very minimal effect on her ability to perform two of the feats I listed, and none on the rest of what I listed. But if you wanna act ignorant, then be my guess. 




> Overall, in SM, Naruto is faster than her by a full tier at the very least and has the ability to sense and react to attacks quicker than normal. She is going to have to work very hard to land a single hit is all I'm getting at. Tsunade is doesn't have the juice to take on any SM-infused character (e.g. Jiraiya, Kabuto, Naruto).


 So basically, what you're saying is Tsunade can do all of the feats I listed a dozen times such as engaging in CQC against Madara and his five V3 legged Susanoos and hold her own as well as overwhelm them a certain points but she can't land a single hit on SM Naruto. Simply because you say so. If you're gonna continue to argue like this, I think I'm done here.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The other Kage had very minimal effect on her ability to perform two of the feats I listed, and none on the rest of what I listed. But if you wanna act ignorant, then be my guess.


Minimal effect? 



The caused a fucken distraction big enough for her to land her hits on Madara, when they engaged in 5 vs. 1 Susano'o combat, the fact that her target was large and slow, i.e. in Susano'o doesn't really equate to much. Did she defeat any of the clones? No. Did she reach any of the clone bodies? No. Was she in a shittier position after the start of the fight? Yes. Her feats didn't amount to anything in the greater scheme of things. She's a horrible tactician, actually I'd be shocked if any of the Gokage (bar Oonoki) could actually form a plan on their own.



Isaiah13000 said:


> So basically, what you're saying is Tsunade can do all of the feats I listed a dozen times such as engaging in CQC against Madara and his five V3 legged Susanoos and hold her own as well as overwhelm them a certain points but she can't land a single hit on SM Naruto. Simply because you say so. If you're gonna continue to argue like this, I think I'm done here.


She cannot replicate those feats against a senjutsu user capable of sensing, that's the point. She cannot blitz Naruto, she gets in close, Naruto will just avoid her because he is faster. It's simple as that. You're more than welcome to disagree, I don't buy into this bullshit by cutting her breaks when she performed like shit.

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Wow that is crazy. Did you just doubt that the other 4 Kage could form strategic plans? What  Genin Naruto and Sakura can form strategic plans, but now Tsuande is dumb ? Wow


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Wow that is crazy. Did you just doubt that the other 4 Kage could form strategic plans? What  Genin Naruto and Sakura can form strategic plans, but now Tsuande is dumb ? Wow


I'm going by performances, Oonoki was the shot-caller and when he asked the others, they were either thinking about giving up or fresh out of ideas. He's was the clear driving force with their performance and a reason why they last as long as they could. There was an easy mountain of difference in strategy and intelligence among him, the Raikage, Tsunade, Gaara and Mei. Don't even get me started on how much of a shit Mei was.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I'm going by performances, Oonoki was the shot-caller and when he asked the others, they were either thinking about giving up or fresh out of ideas. He's was the clear driving force with their performance and a reason why they last as long as they could. There was an easy mountain of difference in strategy and intelligence among him, the Raikage, Tsunade, Gaara and Mei. Don't even get me started on how much of a shit Mei was.



None of that makes them horrible tacticians. Someone like Shika was buckling underpressure, and I think the sight of PS would do that to a lot of characters.  Onoki is the most strategic out of all of them, but that stems from his wealth of experience and most importantly his other interactions with Madara. People in the Naruto verse just don't become Kages for no reason.  Jirayia thought Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi was hardly worth the title of Kage.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> None of that makes them horrible tacticians. Someone like Shika was buckling underpressure, and I think the sight of PS would do that to a lot of characters.  Onoki is the most strategic out of all of them, but that stems from his wealth of experience and most importantly his other interactions with Madara. People in the Naruto verse just don't become Kages for no reason.  Jirayia thought Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi was hardly worth the title of Kage.


The difference with Shika is he was still strategizing and coming up with a plan, the other kages just stood there with a dumb look on their face. I mean they couldn't come up with a single plan or strategy. None of them had any special techniques or secret forbidden jutsus. It was a sad performance through and through, outside of Oonoki and Gaara, the rest were just hopeless.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Veracity (Aug 2, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> The difference with Shika is he was still strategizing and coming up with a plan, the other kages just stood there with a dumb look on their face. I mean they couldn't come up with a single plan or strategy. None of them had any special techniques or secret forbidden jutsus. It was a sad performance through and through, outside of Oonoki and Gaara, the rest were just hopeless.



That whole entire battle you seriously think Tsuande was just hopeless lol? Like wow. 

And when we're the Kage just looking dumb? I mean When Madara went to swing his PS Sword, Raikage said he wasn't giving up, and Tsuande was in the middle of seals. If anything the most you could say is that Onoki has the strongest will of the Kage. When it's comes to strategy, it's implied that they ALL worked together to create combinations. 

I mean strategy is nice and all, but a certain level of power is just overwhelming. There was really nothing they would have done against PS.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> That whole entire battle you seriously think Tsuande was just hopeless lol? Like wow.
> 
> And when we're the Kage just looking dumb? I mean When Madara went to swing his PS Sword, Raikage said he wasn't giving up, and Tsuande was in the middle of seals. If anything the most you could say is that Onoki has the strongest will of the Kage. When it's comes to strategy, it's implied that they ALL worked together to create combinations.
> 
> I mean strategy is nice and all, but a certain level of power is just overwhelming. There was really nothing they would have done against PS.


If SM Jiraiya was there he would have won with Gama Rinsho, if Orochimaru was there he would have won with ET. Tsunade just prolonged the inevitable and was unable to stop it. Please stop with wanking the Gokage, the previous generation of kages were all stronger and would have done much better than them. That was the weakest Gokage class ever.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 2, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> If SM Jiraiya was there he would have won with Gama Rinsho, if Orochimaru was there he would have won with ET. Tsunade just prolonged the inevitable and was unable to stop it. Please stop with wanking the Gokage, the previous generation of kages were all stronger and would have done much better than them. That was the weakest Gokage class ever.



Why are you moving so far away from the conversation. I don't care about you thinking the Kage are weak. That doesn't even matter . You said the Kage werent even able to formulate strategic plans and I said that makes zero sense when that's easily a prerequisite for the title of Kage.

The Kage not being strong enough to stop PS is an entirely different conversation..

You can take 2 Kage away and replace them with Kakashi and Gai, and Madara still wipes them off the map with PS regardless. Madara is no push over clearly.


----------



## Kyu (Aug 2, 2016)

Naruto is faster and has pseudo pre-cog, there's no way Tsunade is _dominating_ a cqc exchange between the two. Can she eventually tag him if he slips up by going to the well one too many times? Most definitely. There's simply a higher chance of him(or a concealed clone) tossing her in the opposite direction given his clear speed advantage.

This is essentially Striking versus Grappling.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## UltraVioletJoseph (Aug 2, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Okay if you want to play it that way, with the other Gokage helping Tsunade, she'll be able to land a hit on SM Naruto.
> 
> 
> Overall, in SM, Naruto is faster than her by a full tier at the very least and has the ability to sense and react to attacks quicker than normal. She is going to have to work very hard to land a single hit is all I'm getting at. Tsunade is doesn't have the juice to take on any SM-infused character (e.g. Jiraiya, Kabuto, Naruto).



Last time I checked Madara gave each Kage 5 "Semi" Perfect Susano'os. Tsunade while being impaled by 2 blades, took one down with 1 punch. What I'm trynna say is she hardly relied on the Kage to hit Madara. They relied on HER frontal attacks to even perform a single move. When she demolished a good portion of his clone, then they reacted. When she cracked his semi perferct rib cage, then they reacted. Reacted when Tsunade gave Ohnoki chakra. Tsunade CAN be fast, but slows her self down as she can be a hot head and rely on brute strength. I agree she'll have a hard time getting to Naruto in SM, but she will get him. Did you forget her Yin Seal is sort of a sage mode as well? Sakura may have "perfected" it far better than Tsunade, but when she released it all her abilities were increased(Medical Ninjutsu, Strength & maybe speed cause she got Kaguya off guard and she has all three dojutsu). When she punched the hell out of that ten tail spawn. If she can't keep up with his speed she summons Katsuyu and relays her to fixed locations around their battlefield. A Katsuyu on her shoulder with four others around & in turn being able to pinpoint his next move because of her linked vision between her slugs. Now FRS, you mean the Jutsu that destroys a person on a cellular level? What a coincidence Tsunade's 100 Healings jutsu increases the mitosis process(duplication of cells) and regenerating anything damaged, especially organs. If it is pre war, then Tsunade hasn't exhausted a ton chakra. She'd be able to use the 100 Healings jutsu for longer than she did with Madara. Meaning if she were hit with a FRS she would outlast the duration that FRS remains cutting her for. Thanks to her mitotic regeneration it is stated she gained a form of emmortality. PHYSICAL attacks will not work on the princess. Haha. In order to kill her he'd have to turn her to ash. Even if he went Six Tails against her, his blasts would cause severe damage, but she was blasted by Yasaka Magatama by Madara and survived with hardly any damage. Long story he can use his speed & lucky techniques all he wants, but if he can't kill her he'll exhaust his sage mode and she gains the upper hand and let us see him resist her strength then. Tsunade can use Chakra scalpels as well and can damage his muscles. Tearing them, or rupturing an organ. Similar to the Gentle fist. But the GF can seal the chakra network.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah so¿ it just means she can eat a Frog Kata without being pushed back 15 m.



Agreed but I don't believe Naruto would take that approach to begin with he isn't so limited as to fight tsunade on her turf . Basic ninja strategy fight with an advantage , he knows what she is good at and where she lacks fight her where she lacks 

Notice he only use frog kata's against preta because preta trolls ninjutsu . 

Naruto got no reason to use kata's here


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 2, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I agree FRS takes her out. A SM punch though? At its best it'll send her flying away, its not anything Sozo Saisei can't heal. Fact is if Naruto gets CQC he's taking an unnecessary risk, one that is likely to get him one-shotted.
> 
> Edit: I mean actually one-shotted. All of Tsunade opponents are people that can tank her punches (Orochimaru/Edo Madara). If she lands one punch on anyone who isn't close to immortal then its going to do _serious one-shotting damage._


I don't see him getting hit by Tsunade when SM Naruto was able to easily evade 3rd Raikage's point-blank attack and also managed to block Alive Madara's blitz (although it sent him flying). And if Naruto manages to hit Tsunade's head in their close combat exchange, I could argue for her not surviving it, although it's not needed since we both agreed on FRS ending her.



Mithos said:


> There is no chance a SM punch is taking her out.
> 
> ...
> 
> Naruto shouldn't attempt CQC like that to begin with though because she is more skilled than he is by a long shot. If she blocks, she can retaliate before he can get away. Or she may be able to grab his arm/leg and punch him. Sage sensing does not mean he can't be hit when he leaves himself open while attacking.


Check my reply to HoN above (tl;dr4u=Naruto isn't gonna get hit since he managed to react to both Sandaime Raikage and Alive Madara who have better speed/close combat feats than Tsunade and also direct hit to head would prove to be troublesome even for someone like Tsunade imo, but the last point is up to you if you agree since it's just speculation, the points before are facts).


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Why are you moving so far away from the conversation. I don't care about you thinking the Kage are weak. That doesn't even matter . You said the Kage werent even able to formulate strategic plans and I said that makes zero sense when that's easily a prerequisite for the title of Kage.


It's because they were shown to not be able to think of strategies on their own, you'd think that they would have some battle sense, outside of Oonoki, none of the others were actually 



Likes boss said:


> The Kage not being strong enough to stop PS is an entirely different conversation..


It's not so much lack of strength as it is lack of effort, Gaara was the specialist with sealing sand, I find it surprising he couldn't come up with a strategy to seal away one or two of the Susano'o clones. Oonoki was really doing the heavy lifting there.



Likes boss said:


> You can take 2 Kage away and replace them with Kakashi and Gai, and Madara still wipes them off the map with PS regardless. Madara is no push over clearly.


Kakashi Kamui's Madara away.
Gai enters 7th Gate and tosses Susano'o into the side of the mountain.

Overall, those two are much stronger than any of the Gokage individually and unlike the Gokage, they would come up with a plan to take down Madara. Whether it involved the usage of Gai's taijutsu to get close which he in 7th Gate would be able to do. He'd actually be faster than Madara, much faster than ET Madara that it's possible he could put a seal on him on his own. 

Maybe you're right, the Gokage were just shit because they didn't have anything else to show. I thought for sure some of them would have some type of genjutsu or sealing jutsu outside of Gaara's sand.

Reactions: Dislike 2


----------



## UltraVioletJoseph (Aug 2, 2016)

This is focusing on pre war Naruto, so why is the fight against the Third Raikage being brought up? I think you forgot to mention his SM was infused with Nine Tails chakra.


----------



## Mithos (Aug 2, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> I don't see him getting hit by Tsunade when SM Naruto was able to easily evade 3rd Raikage's point-blank attack and also managed to block Alive Madara's blitz (although it sent him flying). And if Naruto manages to hit Tsunade's head in their close combat exchange, I could argue for her not surviving it, although it's not needed since we both agreed on FRS ending her.
> 
> 
> Check my reply to HoN above (tl;dr4u=Naruto isn't gonna get hit since he managed to react to both Sandaime Raikage and Alive Madara who have better speed/close combat feats than Tsunade and also direct hit to head would prove to be troublesome even for someone like Tsunade imo, but the last point is up to you if you agree since it's just speculation, the points before are facts).



Evading them doesn't mean he won't ever be hit by Tsunade in an extended bout of CQC. When ninja go on the offensive, they leave themselves open to potential counterattacks: getting blocked and hit, getting parried and left in a vulnerable position, getting their fist/leg grabbed, having the opponent throw themselves into the attack to trade blows. As a taijutsu master, Tsunade is certainly capable of all of the above - sure, she may not pull them off right away, and she may take a couple hits before she does, but the longer Naruto stays within her preferred range, the more likely it becomes.

Arguments such as "he evaded x character that is faster than y so he won't get hit by y" are faulty, and they are not supported by how fights go in the manga. Characters dodge some attacks from fast characters and get hit by others, while they do the same with slower characters. Superior speed has never meant not being able to be hit by slower characters, despite what the BD seems to think. 

I'd be perfectly willing to believe SM Naruto can avoid getting hit by Tsunade if he uses clones, summons, and limits his time in CQC with her. But I just don't believe he can challenge her to CQC and survive.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2016)

Naruto feinted Pain, who had knowledge and Shared vision.

Naruto feints Tsunade and kills her with FRS. I think Naruto was portrayed stronger.


----------



## Jad (Aug 2, 2016)

SM Naruto should comfortably win. Tsunade is lacking in the offensive department as SM physically dominates her in most fields - ala CQC. She'd have to rely on Katsuya to do most of the leg work to have any chance in winning. Not sure how fast Tsunade can think on her feet to control her Pokemon, since these summons usually work almost always on command.


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 3, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Evading them doesn't mean he won't ever be hit by Tsunade in an extended bout of CQC. When ninja go on the offensive, they leave themselves open to potential counterattacks: getting blocked and hit, getting parried and left in a vulnerable position, getting their fist/leg grabbed, having the opponent throw themselves into the attack to trade blows. As a taijutsu master, Tsunade is certainly capable of all of the above - sure, she may not pull them off right away, and she may take a couple hits before she does, but the longer Naruto stays within her preferred range, the more likely it becomes.
> 
> Arguments such as "he evaded x character that is faster than y so he won't get hit by y" are faulty, and they are not supported by how fights go in the manga. Characters dodge some attacks from fast characters and get hit by others, while they do the same with slower characters. Superior speed has never meant not being able to be hit by slower characters, despite what the BD seems to think.
> 
> I'd be perfectly willing to believe SM Naruto can avoid getting hit by Tsunade if he uses clones, summons, and limits his time in CQC with her. But I just don't believe he can challenge her to CQC and survive.


So even P1 Konohamaru has a good chance in hitting Itachi in CQC going with your view? And if, for an example, that incarnation of Konohamaru could one-shot with a punch, he would actually be able to beat Itachi, right?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 3, 2016)

Why are you comparing Part I Konohamaru to Tsunade.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 3, 2016)

Yh why compare tsunade to konohamaru
Unlike tsunade konohamaru got the feats of feint and path and getting behind said path

Tsunade needed to get skewered to mount a strike on a faster opponent 

I don't know konohamaru feat seems abit better

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Aug 3, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Minimal effect?
> 
> 
> 
> *The caused a fucken distraction big enough for her to land her hits on Madara, when they engaged in 5 vs. 1 Susano'o combat, the fact that her target was large and slow, i.e. in Susano'o doesn't really equate to much. *Did she defeat any of the clones? No. Did she reach any of the clone bodies? No. Was she in a shittier position after the start of the fight? Yes. *Her feats didn't amount to anything in the greater scheme of things. She's a horrible tactician, actually I'd be shocked if any of the Gokage (bar Oonoki) could actually form a plan on their own.*



Dude, I'm not going to type what she did against Madara on her own *again*, I've already explained why what most of she did was due to her overall ability in CQC. We've argued it on this thread and the other one, I'm done reiterating myself since you clearly don't understand. As for your last bold comment, that was enough to make me stop debating with you. The only one of the Kage that isn't a good tactician is A, but saying that all of them (Tsunade and Gaara) except for Onoki are bad and cannot think of a single plan on their own shows how lowly you view them to the point that you're too set in your mindset to change.



> She cannot replicate those feats against a senjutsu user capable of sensing, that's the point. She cannot blitz Naruto, she gets in close, Naruto will just avoid her because he is faster. It's simple as that. You're more than welcome to disagree, I don't buy into this bullshit by cutting her breaks when she performed like shit.


 Just because you're faster doesn't mean she is not a threat in CQC, you can easily avoid all of her attacks, and go completely unharmed: the speed gap is not that significant between them. You're both wanking SM Naruto and downplaying Tsunade to an unbelievable level, I'm just done here if you're going to be this ignorantly stubborn.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yh why compare tsunade to konohamaru
> Unlike tsunade konohamaru got the feats of feint and path and getting behind said path
> 
> Tsunade needed to get skewered to mount a strike on a faster opponent
> ...



Tsunade would destroy Naraka.

However, i think the example goes, because Mithos talked about speed in general. But i disagree with that considering Naruto was schooling Sasuke in valley of the end when he was faster, for example. Same thing with Ei or Gai. These guys are so fast that most opponents wouldn't be able to hit them and become sand-bags.

Therefore i would say her example is valid if the other doesn't have some kind of precog, or speed difference is not as big.


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 3, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Why are you comparing Part I Konohamaru to Tsunade.


Why?

When ninja go on the offensive, they leave themselves open to potential counterattacks: getting blocked and hit, getting parried and left in a vulnerable position, getting their fist/leg grabbed, having the opponent throw themselves into the attack to trade blows. As skilled taijutsu user, Konohamaru is certainly capable of all of the above - sure, he may not pull them off right away, and he may take a couple hits before he does, but the longer Naruto stays within his preferred range, the more likely it becomes.

Arguments such as "he evaded x character that is faster than y so he won't get hit by y" are faulty, and they are not supported by how fights go in the manga. Characters dodge some attacks from fast characters and get hit by others, while they do the same with slower characters. Superior speed has never meant not being able to be hit by slower characters, despite what the BD seems to think.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 3, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Why?
> 
> When ninja go on the offensive, they leave themselves open to potential counterattacks: getting blocked and hit, getting parried and left in a vulnerable position, getting their fist/leg grabbed, having the opponent throw themselves into the attack to trade blows. *As skilled taijutsu user, Konohamaru* is certainly capable of all of the above - sure, he may not pull them off right away, and hhe may take a couple hits before hhe does, but the longer Naruto stays within her preferred range, the more likely it becomes.
> 
> Arguments such as "he evaded x character that is faster than y so he won't get hit by y" are faulty, and they are not supported by how fights go in the manga. Characters dodge some attacks from fast characters and get hit by others, while they do the same with slower characters. Superior speed has never meant not being able to be hit by slower characters, despite what the BD seems to think.





Are you trying to troll?


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 3, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Are you trying to troll?


No, I am not. I am just using Mithos' arguments. In his theory, power gaps between characters are nothing when speaking of CQC, because there are still going to be blocks, counters and stuff like that which enables you to make sneaky hit onto any character here and there regardless of how fast you really are, that's how it works in manga.

And because this theory has no actual way of knowing what is the limit of all CQC containing succesful hits from both parties of the fight because superior speed doesn't mean being able to avoid all attacks with 100% possibility, then even Konohamaru from P1 has a decent chance of winning against Itachi in CQC.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Aug 3, 2016)

konohamaru does have a 1-shot tech in rasengan. 
only a select type of ninja would get up from it & Itachi isn't one of'em

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Amol (Aug 3, 2016)

Naruto surpassed Sannin with SM.
Manga wasn't exactly subtle about that.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 3, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> No, I am not. I am just using Mithos' arguments. In his theory, power gaps between characters are nothing when speaking of CQC, because there are still going to be blocks, counters and stuff like that which enables you to make sneaky hit onto any character here and there regardless of how fast you really are, that's how it works in manga.
> 
> And because this theory has no actual way of knowing what is the limit of all CQC containing succesful hits from both parties of the fight because superior speed doesn't mean being able to avoid all attacks with 100% possibility, then even Konohamaru from P1 has a decent chance of winning against Itachi in CQC.



No, you're twisting Mithos's argument into something it isn't by ignoring blindingly obvious key factors of CQC battles. Konohamaru could never, ever win in a battle against Itachi because the speed gap is _colossal_, so is the taijutsu skill difference. Adding to that is Konohamaru's inability to tank attacks and retaliate. 

Tsunade is a taijutsu master. She has a 3.5 in speed, blitzed Manda, blitzed Orochimaru, blitzed a Mokuton Susano'o clone, is a trained evasion expert. She's so resilient that she can be chopped in half for several hours and still use jutsu. And on top of that, she can regenerate. 

So a faster opponent can run circles around her all they want, but unless they're dishing out OHKO attacks and blitzing her with them, they won't beat her in CQC because, sooner or later, they're going to be in a position where dodging her blows simply isn't possible.

Reactions: Like 2 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Bringer (Aug 4, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> No, I am not. I am just using Mithos' arguments. In his theory, power gaps between characters are nothing when speaking of CQC, because there are still going to be blocks, counters and stuff like that which enables you to make sneaky hit onto any character here and there regardless of how fast you really are, that's how it works in manga.
> 
> And because this theory has no actual way of knowing what is the limit of all CQC containing succesful hits from both parties of the fight because superior speed doesn't mean being able to avoid all attacks with 100% possibility, then even Konohamaru from P1 has a decent chance of winning against Itachi in CQC.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Tsunade would destroy Naraka.
> 
> However, i think the example goes, because Mithos talked about speed in general. But i disagree with that considering Naruto was schooling Sasuke in valley of the end when he was faster, for example. Same thing with Ei or Gai. These guys are so fast that most opponents wouldn't be able to hit them and become sand-bags.
> 
> Therefore i would say her example is valid if the other doesn't have some kind of precog, or speed difference is not as big.


you didn't get my point 
My point is konohamaru has the means of closing the speed gap between him and someone faster via using clones 

Tsunade means of closing gap against a faster opponent is to tank their attack and hit them

Naraka isn't faster than tsunade hence why she destroys


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 4, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No, you're twisting Mithos's argument into something it isn't by ignoring blindingly obvious key factors of CQC battles. Konohamaru could never, ever win in a battle against Itachi because the speed gap is _colossal_, so is the taijutsu skill difference.


And based on what exactly are Tsunade's CQC traits closer to SM Naruto's, than Konohamaru's to Itachi's? I mean the guy has shown evading Third Raikage's (VERY fast ninja!) point-blank attack at the last second and counter-attacking at the same time, he has blocked Alive Senju DNA Madara's blitz - two feats that Tsunade could fucking dream of, yet you're acting like the gap between SM Naruto and Tsunade isn't just as huge as between Konohamaru and Itachi.

And I still don't see how her regeneration plays a role here tbh. If Naruto ever engages into CQC, he will surely start with Kawazu Kumite if he's serious and Tsunade's neck will get broken in seconds without her ever realizing she needs to activate Sozo Saisei.

And even if she has activated it before the fight, what exactly would it do if her bones were broken? I didn't actually ever think about that.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 4, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> And based on what exactly are Tsunade's CQC traits closer to SM Naruto's, than Konohamaru's to Itachi's?



Tsunade has a higher DB taijutsu stat than Itachi, she's physically stronger, has more stamina, she's more resilient, she can regenerate. His higher speed is all he has going for him and even then, its not enough to do anything significant to her in a CQC battle. So if Tsunade > Itachi in CQC, then _obviously_ her CQC prowess is closer to SM Naruto's than to Konohamaru's, who is complete fodder by comparison.



> I mean the guy has shown evading Third Raikage's (VERY fast ninja!) point-blank attack at the last second and counter-attacking at the same time, he has blocked Alive Senju DNA Madara's blitz - two feats that Tsunade could fucking dream of, yet you're acting like the gap between SM Naruto and Tsunade isn't just as huge as between Konohamaru and Itachi.



Sai also threw a hand to cover his face, and statistically speaking he's just as fast as Tsunade is. I would pay no attention to random panels like that - both he and Naruto may have thrown hands to protect themselves after Madara hit them, or their hands may have just naturally assumed that position as they were thrown backwards. Had they been legitimate blocks, they shouldn't have been knocked so far backwards; that incarnation of Madara didn't have super strength like the Raikage or Tsunade after all.

Regarding his ability to react to the Sandaime Raikage, I don't doubt that that is impressive .. but then the Sandaime Raikage isn't a top tier speedster either. While certainly very fast, his speed is still at a level were the likes of Dodai, and even some fodders could react from close-mid range:

CS2
CS2

Temari was able to strike him with a fuuton at close range too.

Tsunade is more skilful than any of those ninja, so I don't doubt that she could have reacted too, probably even more effectively than they did.



> And I still don't see how her regeneration plays a role here tbh. If Naruto ever engages into CQC, he will surely start with Kawazu Kumite if he's serious and Tsunade's neck will get broken in seconds without her ever realizing she needs to activate Sozo Saisei.
> 
> And even if she has activated it before the fight, what exactly would it do if her bones were broken? I didn't actually ever think about that.



She's durable enough to endure Chou Shinra Tensei without breaking anything serious - or at least, if she did break something, she was alive to heal herself afterwards. She took a Yasaka Magatama to the chest, which threw her into a boulder with such magnitude that said boulder exploded. She recovered quickly from that too. Kawaku Kumite isn't going to kill her. Furthermore, Tsunade knows and has seen Sage Mode in use before, so there's no way she's going to engage him up close without Byakugou activated.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2016)

Swear tsunade and itachi have 5 in taijutsu in DB3


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Swear tsunade and itachi have 5 in taijutsu in DB3


Itachi has a 4.5 in taijutsu, just like Kakashi, Neji, Hidan and Kisame.
Only shinobi that I remember that have a 5 are Rock Lee, Gai and Tsunade.


Godaime Tsunade said:


> She took a Yasaka Magatama to the chest, which threw her into a boulder with such magnitude that said boulder exploded. She recovered quickly from that too.


This is what I call grasping at straws.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 4, 2016)

I'm sorry you feel that way.


----------



## Jad (Aug 4, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi has a 4.5 in taijutsu, just like Kakashi, Neji, Hidan and Kisame.
> Only shinobi that I remember that have a 5 are Rock Lee, Gai and Tsunade.
> 
> This is what I call grasping at straws.


Hiashi and Hiruzen too. But Gai was the only one stated to be the top Taijutsu user in Konoha. And by the time The Last movie or after Naruto becomes Hokage, databook said Rock Lee is the best Taijutsu user in Konoha. Fun fact

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 4, 2016)

Jad said:


> Hiashi and Hiruzen too. But Gai was the only one stated to be the top Taijutsu user in Konoha. And by the time The Last movie or after Naruto becomes Hokage, databook said Rock Lee is the best Taijutsu user in Konoha. Fun fact


Yeah, after the War Arc, Gai's injury probably limited his shinobi days, I don't see Gai being able to move like he did in the War Arc.


----------



## Mithos (Aug 4, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> And even if she has activated it before the fight, what exactly would it do if her bones were broken? I didn't actually ever think about that.



Breaking her bones - if he's even strong enough to do it - won't stop her. She's repaired a severed spine on panel, and healed deep lacerations that definitely penetrated bone. Souzou Saisei/Byakugou can repair her bones just fine, and quickly too.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Lord Aizen (Aug 4, 2016)

Sage Art: Many Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan, followed by FRS and shes dead


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 5, 2016)

Mithos said:


> She's repaired a severed spine on panel, and healed deep lacerations that definitely penetrated bone. Souzou Saisei/Byakugou can repair her bones just fine, and quickly too.


Can you post pages where she repaired severed spine? Or do you mean when she had her body in half from Madara's fight?


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Can you post pages where she repaired severed spine? Or do you mean when she had her body in half from Madara's fight?



Yes that 
If u split in half of course your spine would be severed


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yes that
> If u split in half of course your spine would be severed


Well yeah, but her spine could be just severed and undamaged, so when Suigetsu brought her other half, she just had to repair the tissue around it or whatever, there's just no proof she could ever actually do anything if her spine got crushed during the fight.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Well yeah, but her spine could be just severed and undamaged, so when Suigetsu brought her other half, she just had to repair the tissue around it or whatever, there's just no proof she could ever actually do anything if her spine got crushed during the fight.



How can her spin her severed yet not damaged 
Something cut forcefully by definition would mean it is damaged


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> How can her spin her severed yet not damaged
> Something cut forcefully by definition would mean it is damaged


By undamaged I mean it's just a perfect cut and the tissue needs to be just "connected", therefore the situation is different than if the spine was actually crushed and not just broken in half.

It's the same thing as if you dropped glass and just one piece would be broken, so you could easily glue it back together, but if the whole glass shattered you would be doomed.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> By undamaged I mean it's just a perfect cut and the tissue needs to be just "connected", therefore the situation is different than if the spine was actually crushed and not just broken in half.
> 
> It's the same thing as if you dropped glass and just one piece would be broken, so you could easily glue it back together, but if the whole glass shattered you would be doomed.



Cut spine = death 
In normal situations 

Would depend on the time of material nerve damage doesn't just heal . Same way brain cells don't regen 

Perfect cut or not her spine was split in half and she healed it 

Spine crushed would not make any difference at all 

Also I would imagine s sword several times her size would do more crushing than cutting 

Imagine trying to cut an ant with a butter knife 

Would actually do more crushing than cutting based on the surface area 

Applied on her


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> ...


Okay, thanks for explanation and the example lol.

Do you think then that Tsunade could survive even something like this?


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Okay, thanks for explanation and the example lol.
> 
> Do you think then that Tsunade could survive even something like this?



Well I don't know of anytbing bar perhaps PS susanoo and up which could actually generate enough force to crush. Her like that 

So no she won't survive PS susanoo trying to crush her because she isn't physically stronger than it 

However replace her with danzo and she simply breaks out of there or at most gets a crushed rib

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Veracity (Aug 6, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It's because they were shown to not be able to think of strategies on their own, you'd think that they would have some battle sense, outside of Oonoki, none of the others were actually
> 
> It's not so much lack of strength as it is lack of effort, Gaara was the specialist with sealing sand, I find it surprising he couldn't come up with a strategy to seal away one or two of the Susano'o clones. Oonoki was really doing the heavy lifting there.
> 
> ...



So again, you don't think A KAGE LEVEL Shinobi could think of a plan on their own? Not being able to form a plan against fucking Madara =/= not being able to form plans at all. Having battle tactic is a prerequisite to winning the God damn Chunnin exams, let alone being a Kage.

When Madada pulled out PS, what plan was Onoki making there? 

The Kage were overwhelmed. That was the point. Tactic wasn't even exploitable there when they were separated and at a disadvantage.  

If you think the Kage aren't as strategic and powerful as let's say Kakashi, then just say that. But saying they lack battle tactic as a whole is just ridiculous. 

The masters has Naruto and Killer Bwe both of which are perfect jin, and couldn't take down Madara without PS. If you seriously think that Kakashi or Gai are ANYWHERE close to Madara then you are tripping. 

How does a comparison between Kakashi/Gai and the Gokage prove that the Gokage can't form strategic plans. I'm pretty positive that was the initial argument right. But shit, I'll make a Edo Madara vs the Masters thread and we'll see who wins. Or shit... I'll make a Onoki and Raikage vs the Masters thread lok.

You not think the Kage are powerful doesn't prove that they cant form tactics.


----------



## Saru (Aug 8, 2016)

UltraVioletJoseph said:


> Last time I checked Madara gave each Kage 5 "Semi" Perfect Susano'os. Tsunade while being impaled by 2 blades, took one down with 1 punch. What I'm trynna say is she hardly relied on the Kage to hit Madara. They relied on HER frontal attacks to even perform a single move. When she demolished a good portion of his clone, then they reacted. When she cracked his semi perferct rib cage, then they reacted. Reacted when Tsunade gave Ohnoki chakra. Tsunade CAN be fast, but slows her self down as she can be a hot head and rely on brute strength. I agree she'll have a hard time getting to Naruto in SM, but she will get him. Did you forget her Yin Seal is sort of a sage mode as well? Sakura may have "perfected" it far better than Tsunade, but when she released it all her abilities were increased(Medical Ninjutsu, Strength & maybe speed cause she got Kaguya off guard and she has all three dojutsu). When she punched the hell out of that ten tail spawn. If she can't keep up with his speed she summons Katsuyu and relays her to fixed locations around their battlefield. A Katsuyu on her shoulder with four others around & in turn being able to pinpoint his next move because of her linked vision between her slugs. Now FRS, you mean the Jutsu that destroys a person on a cellular level? What a coincidence Tsunade's 100 Healings jutsu increases the mitosis process(duplication of cells) and regenerating anything damaged, especially organs. If it is pre war, then Tsunade hasn't exhausted a ton chakra. She'd be able to use the 100 Healings jutsu for longer than she did with Madara. Meaning if she were hit with a FRS she would outlast the duration that FRS remains cutting her for. Thanks to her mitotic regeneration it is stated she gained a form of emmortality. PHYSICAL attacks will not work on the princess. Haha. In order to kill her he'd have to turn her to ash. Even if he went Six Tails against her, his blasts would cause severe damage, but she was blasted by Yasaka Magatama by Madara and survived with hardly any damage. Long story he can use his speed & lucky techniques all he wants, but if he can't kill her he'll exhaust his sage mode and she gains the upper hand and let us see him resist her strength then. Tsunade can use Chakra scalpels as well and can damage his muscles. Tearing them, or rupturing an organ. Similar to the Gentle fist. But the GF can seal the chakra network.



Tsunade's healed from a lot of things for sure, but FRS? That jutsu did damage that Tsunade said even her medical ninjutsu couldn't heal--although in fairness she was talking about treating other people not using Byakugou [1]. The FRS that Sage Mode Naruto uses is even stronger than the one Tsunade saw, and he can use it more than once.



t0xeus said:


> Okay, thanks for explanation and the example lol.
> 
> Do you think then that Tsunade could survive even something like this?



Why wouldn't Tsunade be able to overpower V2 Susano'o when she was knocking V3 Susano'o around like punching bags?


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> knocking V3 Susano'o around like punching bags?


I'll need panels of this before I answer, unless you mean her knocking it back one or two times without cracking it.


----------



## Saru (Aug 8, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> I'll need panels of this before I answer, unless you mean her knocking it back one or two times without cracking it.



Why would she need to _crack_ the Susano'o to prove she can overpower it?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Bringer (Aug 8, 2016)

How do we know she didn't crack V3 Susanoo? 

We really can't tell from the angle whether there were no cracks or not.


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 8, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> I'll need panels of this before I answer, unless you mean her knocking it back one or two times without cracking it.


Well that's like saying Susanoo isn't taking legitimate damage unless it cracks which we know isn't true:
*Spoiler*: _Susanoo Damage_ 







Just because they didn't show us the damage Tsunade delivered to Susanoo with a crack doesn't mean it recieved no damage. My understanding was that it took a lot of damage, it was completely slammed into the ground with a single punch from Tsunade after all, it would make no sense for it to go on completely undamaged after that hit.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 9, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> I'll need panels of this before I answer, unless you mean her knocking it back one or two times without cracking it.




Is her breaking susanoo's weapons in half not good enough for you?


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2016)

Odd she could break the weapons yet her punch didn't show any visible damage to V3 . 

So not sure what she does to V4 here except die


----------



## Troyse22 (Aug 9, 2016)

Ofc Naruto was portrayed as stronger, he was portrayed to have surpassed everybody in the village when he achieved Sage Mode....I don't know why this is a discussion....

Naruto was portrayed as the only one left alive who could take on Pein left in the village

By that measure alone, SM naruto>Pein>Tsunade

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> Why would she need to _crack_ the Susano'o to prove she can overpower it?



You're actually right, even if she did crack it, that still wouldn't mean she can overpower Susanoo's grip, since while punching she is using the chakra punch technique which is irrelevant to her normal strength without using jutsus.
In order to get from Susanoo's grip, she will be using only her natural strength so it's even more likely she won't be able to do it.



BringerOfChaos said:


> How do we know she didn't crack V3 Susanoo?
> 
> We really can't tell from the angle whether there were no cracks or not.


It would be shown if she did any serious damage, Kishimoto isn't that shitty mangaka that he would skip such important part unless it would play role later in the manga, lol. Stop it.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> XD


Again, if it did any damage besides slamming it down few times, it would have been shown. Thinking "it surely had to do a lot of damage looking at all that force on this panel!" is a fanfic logic and Kishimoto didn't want to give us that impression - if he did want to, he would have shown the damage in the manga.
And yeah, obviously it's not gonna crack when applying acid on it or blowing the chakra from Susanoo away, but when applied blunt force - it has always shown the damage in cracking (Sasuke vs A fight for an example, or even Tsunade breaking Madara's ribcage Susanoo with her kick).



NinjaTensa said:


> Is her breaking susanoo's weapons in half not good enough for you?


If she's not able to manifest the same amount of force when punching and slamming the Susanoo around, then it's useless. But yeah, it's a cool feat nonetheless.


----------



## Bringer (Aug 9, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> It would be shown if she did any serious damage, Kishimoto isn't that shitty mangaka that he would skip such important part unless it would play role later in the manga, lol. Stop it.





We literally can't see the spot she punched from this angle.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> We literally can't see the spot she punched from this angle.



Actually I noticed on that scan there is a crack close to susanoo head 
Not bad


----------



## Troyse22 (Aug 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Actually I noticed on that scan there is a crack close to susanoo head
> Not bad



So around its upper back, back of its neck?...Jeez I had that wrong for a long time, always thought she hit around the middle of its back :S


----------



## Ashi (Aug 10, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> So around its upper back, back of its neck?...Jeez I had that wrong for a long time, always thought she hit around the middle of its back :S




I think that's just some chakra flaring out

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Aug 10, 2016)

Leave to NBD to argue this when the Manga made it clear that SM Naruto surpassed any of the Sannin.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Ashi (Aug 10, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Leave to NBD to argue this when the Manga made it clear that SM Naruto surpassed any of the Sannin.




Not really to point he steamrolls them without putting forth his best


----------



## Troyse22 (Aug 10, 2016)

Yeah implying that Naruto would stomp any of the Sannin is a little bit crazy (SM Naruto that is)
And I think Oro would actually beat SM Naruto, due to poison, as Naruto has no poison resistance. Edit: Oro would beat him in a room or building**
And the Sannin still hold certain specific strengths over Naruto, so at the Pein arc, he hasn't surpassed them completely. (Oro and Tsunade durability, Jiraiya's expansive Ninjustsu arsenal)
SM Naruto would beat any of the Sannin in a wide open area, such as destroyed Konoha, but in close quarters, Tsunade and Oro kick his head in.

And that's not to say that he beats Oro and Jiraiya without MAXIMUM difficulty


----------



## Ashi (Aug 10, 2016)

No Orochimaru is so outclassed during the second part of part II it's not even funny



He's a cockroach, hard to kill but overall non threatening 

If people wanted him dead he would be, no question about it


----------



## Troyse22 (Aug 10, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> No Orochimaru is so outclassed during the second part of part II it's not even funny
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So a group as powerful as the Akatsuki considered him extremely dangerous and too strong to go after, but he's "not threatening"

The Akatsuki consisted of extremely powerful Shinobi, they all wanted Oro dead, but why didn't they just hunt him down an do it? Because he was too strong.

And...who didn't want Oro dead...? Everyone did besides a tiny handful of people, even Hiruzen was extremely troubled to have to fight Oro.

A ton of people wanted Oro dead, but NONE of them posessed the capability to do so, Oro will either kill them or some how get away.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 10, 2016)

The Akatsuki were more focused on hunting the tailed beast, it's not like they have free time to hunt him down


He wasn't considered dangerous because he was strong, but because of all his resources and knowledge 

You really think Pain was afraid of Orochimaru? Please, Deidara was only pissed he didn't give it to him


----------



## Troyse22 (Aug 10, 2016)

I do honestly believe Pein was afraid of Oro, i'm sure he knew of Edo Tensei. Not even Pein was strong enough to take that on. The only one I see beating Oro in the Akatsuki is Obito, and even then, Oro would instantly GTFO if he saw Obito, I will admit he's outmatched there.

But he backhands Pein with Edo Tensei.


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 10, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> We literally can't see the spot she punched from this angle.


? That's what I'm saying, stop assuming she did any serious damage just because it fell down - if her being able to defeat V3 Susanoo was the case, Kishimoto would show it. Or do you think he would have hided such a great feat from his fans for fun?

I agree that Tsunade definitely can overpower Susanoo for a small portion of fight, or smash it to the ground few times - but since before this moment and after it - the rest of the fight was her getting smashed by it and even during this moment, all she really did was punch it few times and change its position.



Icegaze said:


> Actually I noticed on that scan there is a crack close to susanoo head
> Not bad


Where? On its face?


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> ? That's what I'm saying, stop assuming she did any serious damage just because it fell down - if her being able to defeat V3 Susanoo was the case, Kishimoto would show it. Or do you think he would have hided such a great feat from his fans for fun?
> 
> I agree that Tsunade definitely can overpower Susanoo for a small portion of fight, or smash it to the ground few times - but since before this moment and after it - the rest of the fight was her getting smashed by it and even during this moment, all she really did was punch it few times and change its position.
> 
> ...



Yh I think so


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 12, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yh I think so


Possible, but hard to tell from all the rocks flying around and the Susanoo's pattern that looks like cracking as well.


----------

