# Sarutobi.



## Edward Newgate (Sep 7, 2011)

So... how exactly was Sarutobi regarded as the strongest Kage when he still had this guy running around? 

Sarutobi obviously didn't know Shiki Fujin back then, over 17 years ago, which is the only technique that could take out the Raikage. Plus, I very much doubt he could compete with him when it comes to speed, as well.


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## Gabe (Sep 7, 2011)

maybe in this prime sarutobi was a beats. to bad he can be brought back as a zombie in his prime. to see how he compares to this kages like the 3rd raikage, the 2nd mizukage, onoki and muu


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## Recal (Sep 7, 2011)

I have the funniest feeling the Cloud village didn't exist when Kishimoto first began writing Sarutobi in part one.  Back then, before Kishi had invented the other villages, Sarutobi was the strongest in his prime because the Raikage didn't exist to compete with him.  Not that I'm belittling Sarutobi, of course...


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 7, 2011)

He wasn't.
Kabuto said Sarutobi was the strongest kage when he said it.
Period.
Or Kabuto was just really trying to confort Oro.
Anyway, I think it was A the Raikage when Kabuto said it.

And, yes, Kumo did exist. Kakashi mentioned the Raikage when during Wave Country Arc.
I guess Sarutobi aging did really weakened him.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 7, 2011)

Gabe said:


> maybe in this prime sarutobi was a beats. to bad he can be brought back as a zombie in his prime. to see how he compares to this kages like the 3rd raikage, the 2nd mizukage, onoki and muu


I doubt his elemental techniques were stronger than Rasenshuriken. Even a Bijuu-dama left only a lightning-shaped scar on his chest (lol)



> Kabuto said Sarutobi was the strongest kage when he said it.
> Period.
> Or Kabuto was just really trying to confort Oro.


And we still have guys like Ei and Onoki who seem stronger than Sarutobi.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 7, 2011)

Enma made him top tier


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## Trent (Sep 7, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> So... how exactly was Sarutobi regarded as the strongest Kage when he still had this guy running around?
> 
> Sarutobi obviously didn't know Shiki Fujin back then, over 17 years ago, which is the only technique that could take out the Raikage. Plus, I very much doubt he could compete with him when it comes to speed, as well.



I had the exact same thought. 

The only thing I can think off is that that the other Kages are very *specialized *and are *uber outstanding in just a few fields* whereas Sarutobi, thanks to his Senju heritage and vast jutsu knowledge, was *extremely good in a vast array of jutsus and abilities*, which allowed to create greatly efficient counters against most types of enemies.

Or something.


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## Fay (Sep 7, 2011)

To see a fight with Sarutobi in his prime...that would be awesome, and then things will make sense I'm sure


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## Kuromaku (Sep 7, 2011)

Power scaling.  It burnses us.

To be fair to Kishimoto though, he always has an out in the form of everyone and their mother claiming that Sarutobi's last fight was nothing compared to his prime.


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## dream (Sep 7, 2011)

It's a shame that the power levels skyrocketed in Part 2 and Sarutobi is seen as some guy who really has nothing impressive.  :/


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## PikaCheeka (Sep 7, 2011)

He's not an ET.

Therefore, he can not by hyped to further hype the living characters.

No Kin/Gin or Sandaime Raikage treatment for him. He's no longer important.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 7, 2011)

Trent said:


> I had the exact same thought.
> 
> The only thing I can think off is that that the other Kages are very *specialized *and are *uber outstanding in just a few fields* whereas Sarutobi, thanks to his Senju heritage and vast jutsu knowledge, was *extremely good in a vast array of jutsus and abilities*, which allowed to create greatly efficient counters against most types of enemies.
> 
> Or something.


Yes, Sarutobi is more varied. But it still doesn't make him above 3rd Raikage. The guy tanked Rasenshuriken. Sarutobi's Katon and his other elemental won't do shit to him. This is also the guy who can dodge Rasenshuriken. Even in Sarutobi's legendary prime, I can't see him being able to fight with the Raikage.


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## Han Solo (Sep 7, 2011)

Power inflation.


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## Daddy43205 (Sep 7, 2011)

sarutobi must have really been adept to sealing techniques. since i beleieve all 3 of his students are proficient with it. meaning sarutobi must be a god with sealing techniques which made him the strongest.


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## Thor (Sep 7, 2011)

Sarutobi is a god. Fuck the haters. Fuck power inflation. Minato is perfect.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 7, 2011)

Daddy43205 said:


> sarutobi must have really been adept to sealing techniques. since i beleieve all 3 of his students are proficient with it. meaning sarutobi must be a god with sealing techniques which made him the strongest.


That's why he had to sacrifice himself against Edo Tensei, right?


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## Nimander (Sep 7, 2011)

Sarutobi, very likely, had

>at least technical knowledge, if not the outright ability, to use jutsu in all five elements
>training from Hashirama and Tobirama, two of the strongest mofos to ever walk the pages of the Naruto manga
>sealing techs, most likely at the level of those used by the Uzumaki clan, if not the same ones
>a ridiculously strong summon in Enma

Now that we're seeing what all the other Kages of Hiruzen's time were capable of (Raikage, Oonoki, Yondaime Kazekage), I think we can say that if there's one Kage with the potential to counter any of the others' attacks, it's Hiruzen.


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## Synn (Sep 7, 2011)

We would still have to see Hiruzen fight in his prime.


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## Sasukethe7thHokage (Sep 7, 2011)

HE NEEDS A FLASHBACK! otherwise hes gonna just keep looking weaker each chap lol


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## auem (Sep 7, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> So... how exactly was Sarutobi regarded as the strongest Kage when he still had this guy running around?
> 
> Sarutobi obviously didn't know Shiki Fujin back then, over 17 years ago, which is the only technique that could take out the Raikage. Plus, I very much doubt he could compete with him when it comes to speed, as well.



translation seems only say 3rd as strongest raikage till his time(i.e stronger than former 2)...so sarutobi could still be strongest kage...


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 7, 2011)

Hiruzen wouldve just used mind-body transfer with the assistance of Kage mane jutsu. Then allow the fodders to commence the sealing as he returns to his real body.

He could perform all jutsu in Konoha after all


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## Daddy43205 (Sep 7, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> That's why he had to sacrifice himself against Edo Tensei, right?


well he was like 70, brain over brawn aint that how it usually goes?


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## Thor (Sep 7, 2011)

6th coffin is Hiruzen.


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 7, 2011)

Hiruzen's chakra pool sucked when he fought Oro.
He probably just barely had enough chakra to do a KB then Shiki Fuujin.
We were told countless times that old hiruzen had an abysmal stamina.


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## HInch (Sep 7, 2011)

Without a part II scaled Sarutobi, we cannot even begin to try and figure it out. This is his fate for being seen so early in the series.


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## geminis (Sep 7, 2011)

If old Sarutobi can take on Hashirama, tobirama, and orochimaru....then the 3rd raikage would be done in as well.


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## vagnard (Sep 7, 2011)

Power inflation. 

If Sarutobi was revived he would have 8 elemental kekkai genkai (including lava release of course), 3 or 4 magical items and probably a Mangekyo Sharingan.


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## Gunners (Sep 7, 2011)

More to winning a battle than brute strength alone.


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## Kourti (Sep 7, 2011)

I honestly don't think Kishi was thinking that far ahead when he wrote that scene.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 7, 2011)

vagnard said:


> Power inflation.
> 
> If Sarutobi was revived he would have 8 elemental kekkai genkai (including lava release of course), 3 or 4 magical items and probably a Mangekyo Sharingan.




I can actually see it turn out like that.


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## GunX2 (Sep 7, 2011)

He is the God of all shinobi.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 7, 2011)

To be technical, Kabuto said that Hiruzen was the strongest of the Kages at the time: 

Hiruzen
Ei
Onoki
Yagura
Gaara's dad



vagnard said:


> Power inflation.
> 
> If Sarutobi was revived he would have 8 elemental kekkai genkai  (including lava release of course), 3 or 4 magical items and probably a  Mangekyo Sharingan.



I agree with your point, though not the specifics. If Hiruzen were shown fighting again, he'd get a pt. 2 treatment.


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## Trent (Sep 7, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> Yes, Sarutobi is more varied. But it still doesn't make him above 3rd Raikage. *The guy tanked Rasenshuriken. Sarutobi's Katon and his other elemental won't do shit to him*. This is also the guy who can dodge Rasenshuriken. Even in Sarutobi's legendary prime, I can't see him being able to fight with the Raikage.



That's the thing, he wouldn't _try _to overpower him when the 3rd Raikage has his raiton armor to protect him. 

My guess, to be able to imagine him as strong as his reputation claimed he was, is that he'd be using different strategies, using genjutsu/immobilizing jutsu and setting a trap to make him drop his perfect defense and be vulnerable.

Sarutobi would basically always have in his arsenal the weapons his opponent is weak against _*and *_would be expert at devising strategies and using them effectively.

On top of potentially being a master strategist, he'd be a jack-of-all-trades _and_ master of all without being THE best in each/certain fields as the 3rd Raikage is in durability for example.


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## Reddan (Sep 7, 2011)

vagnard said:


> Power inflation.
> 
> If Sarutobi was revived he would have 8 elemental kekkai genkai (including lava release of course), 3 or 4 magical items and probably a Mangekyo Sharingan.



Power inflation is exaggerated by people on this forum. In part 1 we saw Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, Edo Tensei and Shika Fujin. Then before the time skip we saw Hiraishin. Even after the times skip these techniques are in the top 10 best we have seen in the manga.

Sarutobi was impressive enough, but his best attribute was being a genius and knowing a counter to pretty much every jutsu out there. I would have thought the recent fights have highlighted the importance of intelligence.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 7, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> To be technical, Kabuto said that Hiruzen was the strongest of the Kages at the time:
> 
> Hiruzen
> Ei
> ...


Yeah, but some people say that he referred to his prime.


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## Frostman (Sep 7, 2011)

There is probably a certain trick to fighting the third Raikage. Similar to how there is a certain trick to fighting Madara that Minato had. Sarutobi probably had it.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Sep 7, 2011)

arednad said:


> Power inflation is exaggerated by people on this forum. In part 1 we saw Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, Edo Tensei and Shika Fujin. Then before the time skip we saw Hiraishin. Even after the times skip these techniques are in the top 10 best we have seen in the manga.
> 
> Sarutobi was impressive enough, but his best attribute was being a genius and knowing a counter to pretty much every jutsu out there. I would have thought the recent fights have highlighted the importance of intelligence.



This.
Even in his prime, it is unlikely that his physical ability would have surpassed that of his son, asuma, who was strong for a normal guy, but not... Outstanding.

Raikage's biggest failure in life was being hurt by a BIJUU.
He didn't even acknowledge humans as a threat at that time.

And this prime stuff... Raikage is obviously out of his thirties in his current incarnation. Hell, saying he is in his fifties, when we look at his son is suspect. He might as well be 60, which means that is HIS 60, while sarutobi's 60 makes him look like an old geezer.

Sarutobi is acclaimed for his academic mastery of ninjutsu.
Nothing more.
That alone makes him dangerous, knowing thousands upon thousands of jutsu, but he runs into the "KAKASHI PARADOX".

The posession of many weapons, without any way to apply them.


Feat-wise, he is shitty, and without shiki fuujin, konoha would have been destroyed. Oro's cockiness also proved to be his downfall.
If he would have went straight for the kill without playing games, konoha would have been destroyed.


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## Harbour (Sep 7, 2011)

Teoretically Hiruzen was very strong, but there are few "BUT":
Iruka and Kabuto even havent born when Hiruzen was "Prime". They both just heard it from old crazy mens and womens, where living in the Hiruzen's era.
There is very different levels between 1st and 2nd seasons. 10 years ago Kishi thought that Hiruzen was srongest, but what he thinking now?
Sarutobi think, that he was weaker in 68 years than Orochimaru, but think that Minato can defeat him.
Be honest - practically Sarutobi show(in 68): C and B rang Doton and Katon, staff and...thats all. In his prime he didnt know Shiki Fuujin. Okay, also he+some his guard was defeating by Orochimaru with one technique(yeah, check flashback during theit fight. I think Hiruzen was about 40+ years), when he even used Enma(so he was serious). What else? Yeah, Kuybi invasion. There was Kishi's chance to show us greatness of Hiruzen(he was about 50 - sannins years). And...nothing. He has just prayed for Minato's help. And, at last, Danzo's flashback(he was look like 20+). Nothing. He+Kage+5 elite jonins(Tobirama wasnt take genins, huh?) couldn't deal anything with Kinkaku force.
So we see, that Kishi has many chances to show us epicness of Hiruzen... Sarutobi did nothing in 20+, 40, 50 years. What did  he with Orochimaru+ET without Shiki Fuujin? Nothing. *So teoretically he might be a strongest kage in his 25-40 years in that moment.*
But practically... we saw 3RK, 3TK(Onoki), 4RK(sannins years) and they are all looking fcking good shinobis no matter how old there was.


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## Lelouch71 (Sep 7, 2011)

If Sandaime Raikage is this much of a beast makes me wonder how powerful Hiruzen was in his prime. Hell this Raikage pretty much makes all 4 hokages look jounin level.


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## Infinite Xero (Sep 7, 2011)

Sarutobi was said to be stronger than the Kages at the time (Onoki, Ei, Yagura or Mei, and Gaara's pops).


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 7, 2011)

temari can damage him but you dont think hiruzen can? ok.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2011)

Maybe back in part 1(around 10 years ago) Kishimoto never considered he'd introduce the previous kages and pit them against current characters.

Seriously. The power levels back than and power levels now are worlds apart.

How well do you think Edo Sarutobi would fare ? Going by the arsenal he has shown ?


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## Reddan (Sep 7, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Maybe back in part 1(around 10 years ago) Kishimoto never considered he'd introduce the previous kages and pit them against current characters.
> 
> Seriously. The power levels back than and power levels now are worlds apart.
> 
> How well do you think Edo Sarutobi would fare ? Going by the arsenal he has shown ?



Like I said before. Literally a couple of chapters after Hiruzen died Itachi showcased Tsukiyomi. That is enough to put down every kage that has been revived. A few chapters after that he showcased Amaterasu. 

Ignoring that you claim to be an Itachi fan. Genjutsu and a kunai is all he needs to take out elite jounins. All Minato needs is Hiraishin and a kunai. These were all there before part 2.

The power levels are not far apart at all. In part 2 we just mostly saw kids fight. The jutsu we saw from the elite ninjas are still the best we have seen in the manga. What is Sandaime Raikage going to do against an Orochimaru, who summons regenerating Hashirama and Tobirama?

What makes you think Sandaime Raikage could get past the Enma cage?


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## auem (Sep 7, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Maybe back in part 1(around 10 years ago) Kishimoto never considered he'd introduce the previous kages and pit them against current characters.
> 
> Seriously. The power levels back than and power levels now are worlds apart.
> 
> How well do you think Edo Sarutobi would fare ? Going by the arsenal he has shown ?


yet 2 of the most powerful jutsus till date was introduced back then(edo tensei and shiki fujin)...
though i admit kishi never foresaw this far,otherwise he would have given hiruzen some crazy jutsus...


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## Neptun (Sep 7, 2011)

just goes to show how fucking awesome hiruzen must have been


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## ovanz (Sep 7, 2011)

I will copy/paste the same i write in other thread about this character:

"All the hype in naruto part 1 is destroyed in part 2."

Kishi probably didn't thought at that time about the other kages powers or villages, the only kage we saw was gaara's father who was defeated offscreen by orochimaru.


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 7, 2011)

with hiruzen kishi just put himself into a blind alley
so he'll probably just pretend that nothing happened and will never give us a flashback


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 7, 2011)

arednad said:


> Like I said before. Literally a couple of chapters after Hiruzen died Itachi showcased Tsukiyomi. That is enough to put down every kage that has been revived. A few chapters after that he showcased Amaterasu.
> 
> Ignoring that you claim to be an Itachi fan. Genjutsu and a kunai is all he needs to take out elite jounins. All Minato needs is Hiraishin and a kunai. These were all there before part 2.
> 
> ...



You gotta prove that about Tsukiyomi. 

Kurenai would solo this war then. 

Actually the very reason Hiruzen didn't show off any possibly hax jutsu besides the Reaper Death Seal is because he was fighting 3 immortal opponents and didn't have alot of chakra to waste. He used his intelligence and skill to use what was necessary: Mudslide Wall for defense, Enma for support, Shadow Clones to grab the Senju bros., and Reaper Death Seal to kill them all. Short and sweet. But that in turn blemished Hiruzen compared to other characters because he didn't show any DBZ feats like all of these other characters are getting.



Udontard4ever said:


> with hiruzen kishi just put himself into a blind alley
> so he'll probably just pretend that nothing happened and will never give us a flashback



Well in the last fanbook Kishimoto released, he said that Hiruzen even had counters to the MS and EMS. So he hasn't forgotten about Hiruzen and updated him.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 7, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> But that in turn blemished Hiruzen compared to other characters because he didn't show any DBZ feats like all of these other characters are getting.



which is weird since minato has no dbz jutsu and is treated as unbeatable by most fans.


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## CrazyMoronX (Sep 7, 2011)

Sarutobi Prime knew all of Konoha's jutsu. Think about it.


He had a lot of genjutsu (Raikage's potential weakness), ridiculous amounts of fodder katons, suitons, dotons, fuutons, raitons, probably knew lava release since everyone did, had bijuu-level chakra in his prime like everyone does, could summon a Godzilla-sized monkey god, and had a plethora of high-level defensive techniques.

He should potentially have a counter to every single jutsu ever shown in the entire manga.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 7, 2011)

cbark42 said:


> which is weird since minato has no dbz jutsu and is treated as unbeatable by most fans.



Well Kishimoto gave Minato a simple jutsu that is just too abusable, whether he realized that at the time is questionable. Then went and said that Minato's faster than Ei who's a Super Saiyan.


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## BXisAWOL (Sep 7, 2011)

Because Hiruzen is stronger than all you haters make him out to be.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2011)

arednad said:


> Like I said before. Literally a couple of chapters after Hiruzen died Itachi showcased Tsukiyomi. That is enough to put down every kage that has been revived. A few chapters after that he showcased Amaterasu.


We didn't see Itachi use Amaterasu tho, we only what was left of it after it was used.
It was like teaser trailer of a movie. Not the real thing.



> Ignoring that you claim to be an Itachi fan. Genjutsu and a kunai is all he needs to take out elite jounins. All Minato needs is Hiraishin and a kunai. These were all there before part 2.


Thats why Minato did nearly everything off-panel.



> The power levels are not far apart at all. In part 2 we just mostly saw kids fight. The jutsu we saw from the elite ninjas are still the best we have seen in the manga. What is Sandaime Raikage going to do against an Orochimaru, who summons regenerating Hashirama and Tobirama?


Actually they are.
What could Sarutobi( a kage level shinobi) hope to accomplish against any kage level nin of part 2 solely with the stuff he has shown in his battle against Orochimaru(save shiki fuuin which is basically a suicide tech).
Pretty much every akatsuki stomps him, with the exception of hidan.



> What makes you think Sandaime Raikage could get past the Enma cage?


Grab it and toss it to the orbit ? 



auem said:


> yet 2 of the most powerful jutsus till date was introduced back then(edo tensei and shiki fujin)...
> though i admit kishi never foresaw this far,otherwise he would have given hiruzen some crazy jutsus...



They aren't the strongest jutsus.

Shiki Fuuin is perhaps the strongest sealing jutsu, but you have to sacrifice yourself to use it. 

Also do you realize how Kishimoto had to Buff Edo tensei so that it could meet the standarts of part 2 ?
I mean Kabuto literally revived everyone died so far, and he is fighting a war with it.


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## arokh (Sep 7, 2011)

For Sarutobi's character to make sense now, the story would have to be rewritten. Actually, the 1st and 2nd hokage seemed like fodder too, can't really see Edo Hashirama battling kyuubi or prime Madara.

Power levels seem different now.


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## Judecious (Sep 7, 2011)

Because in his prime he was capable of doing anything+with emma

Even Emma said he isn't the shinobi he once was.


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## Reddan (Sep 7, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We didn't see Itachi use Amaterasu tho, we only what was left of it after it was used.
> It was like teaser trailer of a movie. Not the real thing.


Perhaps, but we did get a description of how it is used and saw it's power. Itachi would one shot Sandaime Raikage with that alone.



> Thats why Minato did nearly everything off-panel.


Not true when he killed the rock jounin we saw him place the seal and then teleport back to him. Again that is more than enough for virtually all the characters. Haku's ice mirrors are top tier as well. They are pretty much a poor mans Hiraishin.


> Actually they are.
> What could Sarutobi( a kage level shinobi) hope to accomplish against any kage level nin of part 2 solely with the stuff he has shown in his battle against Orochimaru(save shiki fuuin which is basically a suicide tech).
> Pretty much every akatsuki stomps him, with the exception of hidan.


With the stuff he has shown in battle not much. All we know is he has top level taijutsu skills and was able to disarm Orochimaru. However, he gave us a good indication of his skill. He was able to place exploding tages on the kages whilst being hit. He is skilled enough to find purely with his nose when blind. Due to the situation he did not use his best jutsu, but he still has one of the best weapons in the series. Just look at what Mifune can accomplish with a sword. 


> Grab it and toss it to the orbit ?


Possible, but how would this kill someone like Sarutobi, who knows so many jutsu. Itachi and Sasuke have demonstrated the power of using a genjutsu.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 7, 2011)

arednad said:


> Not true when he killed the rock jounin we saw him place the seal and then teleport back to him. Again that is more than enough for virtually all the characters. Haku's ice mirrors are top tier as well. They are pretty much a poor mans Hiraishin.



Haku's ice mirrors got the part 2 power inflation treatment. Originally we saw that Haku leaped from mirror to mirror at great speeds when they were in close proximity to each other. But when Haku was revived in part 2, we saw that Haku can make ice without a source of water, can make the mirrors hundreds of feet away from himself, and can actually teleport between them.


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## Hasan (Sep 7, 2011)

Scaling Hiruzen by part 2 standards isn't really hard as one might think. I mean it's a given that Saru was the best of the 5 Kage. All other Kages have shown what they're truly capable of. 

I mean A/Ei, Onoki displayed impressive feats and now Kishi shows us Sandaime Raikage. It's pretty easy to think that Hiruzen had something which put him above everyone else.

Like UltimateDeadPool said, Kishi recently told us that Hiruzen even had counters to MS & EMS. It was released in December 2009; I think Pain Invasion arc was nearly finished. So, Kishi hasn't forgotten about Sarutobi given how recent it is.


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## Reddan (Sep 7, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Haku's ice mirrors got the part 2 power inflation treatment. Originally we saw that Haku leaped from mirror to mirror at great speeds when they were in close proximity to each other. But when Haku was revived in part 2, we saw that Haku can make ice without a source of water, can make the mirrors hundreds of feet away from himself, and can actually teleport between them.



We never had any indication of how far he could jump, because he never needed to jump far. However, we saw he was fast enough to intercept a charging Kakashi.


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## Judecious (Sep 7, 2011)

cbark42 said:


> which is weird since minato has no dbz jutsu and is treated as unbeatable by most fans.



That's because Minato doesn't need super level jutsu to beat anyone.  All he needs is a special kunai.


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## Taijukage (Sep 7, 2011)

Flying Thunder god isnt a dbz jutsu? lol. 

I think the fact that he was hailed as God of Shinobi even when this Sandaime Raikage was around is proof he had abilities far beyond anyone, and can even counter EMS.


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## Lightysnake (Sep 7, 2011)

The fact is, we saw Sarutobi fight...once. When he was very old, long past his prime, low on strength, stamina and chakra and against immortla zombies when he decided to use Shiki Fuuin very quickly.

We don't know how he'd fight against opponents like the Sandaime Raikage or Mu. Hiw hype indicates he has a ton more up his sleeve, though.


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 7, 2011)

Prime Hiruzen was a beast.

As soon as he gets a relevant fight in part II, the rest of the forums will realize this. Powerscaling does seem like it's leaving him behind, but we just have to wait until he's seen in combat. That may be against the Kin-Gin brothers, for example.


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## Skaddix (Sep 7, 2011)

Lightysnake said:


> The fact is, we saw Sarutobi fight...once. When he was very old, long past his prime, low on strength, stamina and chakra and against immortla zombies when he decided to use Shiki Fuuin very quickly.
> 
> We don't know how he'd fight against opponents like the Sandaime Raikage or Mu. Hiw hype indicates he has a ton more up his sleeve, though.



oonki and sandaime raikage ei and the sannin don't suck while old


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 7, 2011)

arednad said:


> We never had any indication of how far he could jump, because he never needed to jump far. However, we saw he was fast enough to intercept a charging Kakashi.



He would have had to jump hundreds of feet straight up at speeds quicker than the eye can see to be able to just appear above Sai like that with no warning other than making the air cold.



Skaddix said:


> oonki and sandaime raikage ei and the sannin don't suck while old



Hiruzen remember is 69-70 when he died, even Danzo was using a cane to walk at 72-73. Ei and the Sannin are in their 50's. We don't know how old Raikage is, but even then he's unnaturally durable, has Lightning Armor to make him faster, and has Bijuu level chakra while Hiruzen was never said to be a chakra freak. Onoki can fly fast and has the most powerful offense in the series so it doesn't really matter what his stats are besides chakra; I think his has at least a 2.5.

Hiruzen at the very least would benefit greatly from how much farther chakra goes in pt. 2. Like Kakashi's chakra in both pt. 1 and pt. 2 is listed as a 3, but in pt. 1 ran out of chakra after using 6 abilities and now he can use 9 before running out... and most of them used alot of chakra.


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## general-david (Sep 7, 2011)

Lol, the 3rd defeated the 1st hokage and 2nd hokage at the same time!!!!

And then went on to injure Orochimaru as well.

We dont need any flashbacks for him....he's already on the top tier!

(He took out the guy who took down Madara, defeated the guy who took on Kinkaku force, and also took on the guy who was literally a monster)


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## Skaddix (Sep 7, 2011)

orochi wasn't trying and edos were mind less


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## Reddan (Sep 7, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> He would have had to jump hundreds of feet straight up at speeds quicker than the eye can see to be able to just appear above Sai like that with no warning other than making the air cold.



Meant how far he could jump/teleport in between mirrors. He never had a reason to jump far. He only ever showed us his speed by stopping Kakashi.


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## stevensr123 (Sep 7, 2011)

Well looking at the datebook stats, sarutobi was an allaround type of fighter, great at ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu.

And looking at the fight vs orochimaru he was extremely intelligent, add in the fact he was insanely fast : remember when the kyubi was attacking? he was suddenly able to catch up to where minato and the kyubi was, within a few minutes/seconds despite it being such a large distance away.

We still haven't see a lot of feats by sarutobi, but the fact


many ninja said he was the most powerful and greatest homage that ever existed
the fact they said he was the most powerful kage of his time.
The fact the 2nd hokage had enough confidence in him to make him kage at a young age.
and the fact sarutobi himself thought he was stronger than the second and the rest (danzo etc)

Makes me believe he was truly powerful and hax.

Also this is kasha's manga and he HAS blatantly said many times hiruzen was the strongest.


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## stevensr123 (Sep 7, 2011)

Skaddix said:


> oonki and sandaime raikage ei and the sannin don't suck while old



How the fuck did he suck 

In terms of taijutsu combat, he was able to compete with the 1st and second at the same time, and come up with a simple yet effective plan and blew up there legs.

He was able to quickly summon enima to counter mouton easily.

He was able to seal up TWO OF THE MOST POWERFUL NINJA EVER, on his own, while fighting them at the same time. In this manga it's taking a whole squad to do the same feat.


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## biar (Sep 8, 2011)

Well Sarutobi immediately used Shiki Fujin so that he can seal the Kages along with killing Orochimaru before draining more stamina from fighting immortal zombies. He knew he can't win a war of attrition at his age, not to mention that he was stuck in a barrier with little place to escape, no one else in Konoha except for himself was able to kill Orochimaru.


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## Harbour (Sep 8, 2011)

All statements about his power was made in first season. In second season - nothing. And Kishi already has a many chances to show us the power of Sarutobi.
You people truely believe, that Kishi will show Hiruzen's power?
So naive.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2011)

arednad said:


> Perhaps, but we did get a description of how it is used and saw it's power. Itachi would one shot Sandaime Raikage with that alone.



Yeah but still, Amaterasu was left in the dark. We didn't know how big it was, how it was executed, how fast it was or other technicalities. 
We only knew it was a powerful tech.


> Not true when he killed the rock jounin we saw him place the seal and then teleport back to him. Again that is more than enough for virtually all the characters. Haku's ice mirrors are top tier as well. They are pretty much a poor mans Hiraishin.


He simply appeared behind him. It was later on explained in the databook, but I don't remember any exclusive knowledge given on Hirashin in the manga.
Minato was off panelling fodder as he went without showing much.


> With the stuff he has shown in battle not much. All we know is he has top level taijutsu skills and was able to disarm Orochimaru. However, he gave us a good indication of his skill. He was able to place exploding tages on the kages whilst being hit. He is skilled enough to find purely with his nose when blind. Due to the situation he did not use his best jutsu, but he still has one of the best weapons in the series. Just look at what Mifune can accomplish with a sword.


True, sarutobi has shown that he had great basic skill and knowledge. Which is also backed up by the databook.
But that was about it. Sadly, in part 2, those alone won't allow you to win a fight.
Aside from Shikifuuin, Sarutobi hasn't shown any jutsu that could compete with the top tier stuff we have now.

Kagebunshin shuriken  ?
Come on...




> Possible, but how would this kill someone like Sarutobi, who knows so many jutsu. Itachi and Sasuke have demonstrated the power of using a genjutsu.



I am pretty sure Sarutobi didn't battle simply by hiding inside a cage. If he did so, his opponent would find a way to deal with it eventually. 
Especially a guy like Sandaime Raikage, who dukes it out with bijuus on daily basis.

Lets admit it. Part 2 is more like DBZ where really big and fancy jutsu are required to compete. 

But thats only natural. This manga couldn't have gone for 10 years if it stayed the same. You have to meet the expectations of the reader. You get used to something, and it doesn't satisfy you anymore. You expect more.
Just like the life itself.


edit :



cbark42 said:


> which is weird since minato has no dbz jutsu and is treated as unbeatable by most fans.



Teleportation is not DBZ level ? 

I mean Minato's arsenal is based on STJ which is basically the highest level stuff you can get.


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## Hasan (Sep 8, 2011)

Harbour said:


> All statements about his power was made in first season. In second season - nothing. And Kishi already has a many chances to show us the power of Sarutobi.
> You people truely believe, that Kishi will show Hiruzen's power?
> So naive.





> Hiruzen was able to counter every jutsu in existence *including MS & EMS.*





> Rikoudo Sennin is also known as the 'God of Shinobi'. *Sarutobi* must have been godly.



That's the most recent information about Hiruzen. It was released around the time Pain Invasion Arc was ending. Kishi remains consistent with his words even after hyping Hashirama and Madara.


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## arokh (Sep 8, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Hiruzen remember is 69-70 when he died, even Danzo was using a cane to walk at 72-73.



Did you miss the part about Danzo using appearences to seem old and weak, while it was exactly the opposite? Once the bandages came off he was pretty much going on a rampage against Sasuke.

Anyways, we all know Hiruzen was called God of shinobi, the professor, etc. If Kishi would give us a prime Hiruzen flashback, we would see something completely different from the Orochimaru fight and more along today's power levels. The problem is that he is neither connected with Uchiha or Senju, or any of the other main characters for that matter. He probably won't get the spotlight again. It would purely be fanservice.


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## Kazekage Gaara (Sep 8, 2011)

We still don't know how strong Sarutobi was in his prime, so you can't really know.


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## Turrin (Sep 8, 2011)

Hiruzen was not the strongest Kage. Kabuto simply said it was his reputation, which is basically Kishi's clue word to readers that this statement is BS hype. I mean Kisame states that him and Itachi combined pale in comparison to legendary Sannin based on reputation, right after Itachi had just finished saying he could essentially draw with Jiriaya and Orochimaru admitting inferiority to Itachi, which just shows how BS reputation is. 

Aside from that I would really like to see the original Japanese to see if the word Saikyo is used, since that would mean Hiruzen was never called the de facto strongest Hokage in the first place.


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## cloudsymph (Sep 8, 2011)

bad power scaling.


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## Hero of Shadows (Sep 8, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> I doubt his elemental techniques were stronger than Rasenshuriken. Even a Bijuu-dama left only a lightning-shaped scar on his chest (lol)
> 
> 
> And we still have guys like Ei and Onoki who *seem stronger* than Sarutobi.



 That right there is your problem OP.


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## Harbour (Sep 8, 2011)

Hasan said:


> That's the most recent information about Hiruzen. It was released around the time Pain Invasion Arc was ending. Kishi remains consistent with his words even after hyping Hashirama and Madara.


Okay, tell me plz from where you take this? You are sure, that you read not a fake interview?


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## Reddan (Sep 8, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah but still, Amaterasu was left in the dark. We didn't know how big it was, how it was executed, how fast it was or other technicalities.
> We only knew it was a powerful tech.
> 
> He simply appeared behind him. It was later on explained in the databook, but I don't remember any exclusive knowledge given on Hirashin in the manga.
> Minato was off panelling fodder as he went without showing much.


The databook explained these two detail in more detail, but it is true we only got teasers. However, it shows these moves were always there. Secondly the data book split up jutsu into ranks. Look at how few S and A rank jutsu were actually shown in part 1. Kishimoto purposely ranked most jutsu at B-rank indicating there was more to come.


> True, sarutobi has shown that he had great basic skill and knowledge. Which is also backed up by the databook.
> But that was about it. Sadly, in part 2, those alone won't allow you to win a fight.
> Aside from Shikifuuin, Sarutobi hasn't shown any jutsu that could compete with the top tier stuff we have now.
> 
> ...


Mifune manages just fine with his sword. Even in part 2 Zabuza was a serious threat with his mist and silent assassination technique (something Hiruzen would counter with ease). In part 1 Temari showed on of the flashiest jutsu, but no one thought she was one of the strongest genin. 


> I am pretty sure Sarutobi didn't battle simply by hiding inside a cage. If he did so, his opponent would find a way to deal with it eventually.
> Especially a guy like Sandaime Raikage, who dukes it out with bijuus on daily basis.


That is just one example of how he could fight based on what we saw. However, he probably used Enma which can alter his shape. If Mifune can cope with just a sword think what Hiruzen can do with an adamantine, shape changing staff.


> Lets admit it. Part 2 is more like DBZ where really big and fancy jutsu are required to compete.


Itachi, Mifune, Zabuza, Shikamaru and Minato all cope fine without resorting to flash jutsu. 

However, if you want to see flash jutsu then have a look at these from part 1.
Genjutsu counter
Genjutsu counter
Genjutsu counter
Genjutsu counter
Genjutsu counter
Genjutsu counter



> But thats only natural. This manga couldn't have gone for 10 years if it stayed the same. You have to meet the expectations of the reader. You get used to something, and it doesn't satisfy you anymore. You expect more.
> Just like the life itself.


This is true for most stories and there has been slight power inflation most notable in the number of jutsu a ninja can use, without exhaustion. However, he has been very consisted about power.

Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, Hiraishin, Edo Tensei, Shiki Fujin are still the best moves about. In part 1 we saw most chunin, genin, a couple of jounin, and the handicapped Sannin. In part 2 we are seeing the best the shinobi world has to offer.


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## Skaddix (Sep 8, 2011)

True those 5 moves are still top tier even now.

Joined by Susanno, Pein's Chikbaki Tensei, Menacing Balls, Kirin and Rasenshuriken.


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## Haloman (Sep 8, 2011)

Recalcitrant Funkasaur said:


> I have the funniest feeling the Cloud village didn't exist when Kishimoto first began writing Sarutobi in part one.  Back then, before Kishi had invented the other villages, Sarutobi was the strongest in his prime because the Raikage didn't exist to compete with him.  Not that I'm belittling Sarutobi, of course...



Eh? Every village existed. Kakashi points them out to Naruto when they're leaving on their Zabuza mission. That was in like chapter 6? Earlier?  Then there was the Hinata kidnapper (from the Cloud) who was ultimately responsible for the death of Neji's father.

This is just power inflation. It's true not just for shonen, but pretty much every story out there. You can see it in anything from movies such as Harry Potter or Iron Man all the way to TV shows like Lost or House. Everything has to get more powerful/dramatic/scandalous/dangerous/whatever than before or else it stagnates. You can see this stagnation in many canceled TV shows.


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## Hasan (Sep 8, 2011)

Lightysnake said:


> The fact is, we saw Sarutobi fight...once. When he was very old, long past his prime, low on strength, stamina and chakra and against immortla zombies when he decided to use Shiki Fuuin very quickly.
> 
> We don't know how he'd fight against opponents like the Sandaime Raikage or Mu. Hiw hype indicates he has a ton more up his sleeve, though.



Agreed. 



Turrin said:


> Hiruzen was not the strongest Kage. Kabuto simply said it was his reputation, which is basically Kishi's clue word to readers that this statement is BS hype. I mean Kisame states that him and Itachi combined pale in comparison to legendary Sannin based on reputation, right after Itachi had just finished saying he could essentially draw with Jiriaya and Orochimaru admitting inferiority to Itachi, which just shows how BS reputation is.
> 
> Aside from that I would really like to see the original Japanese to see if the word Saikyo is used, since that would mean Hiruzen was never called the de facto strongest Hokage in the first place.



Reputation comes off from feats, I believe. Sure, the other Kages are all impressive and have extremely strong techniques but Kishimoto has been consistent with Hiruzen being the strongest. Onoki has dust release and vast experience yet Kishi never indicated him to be Hiruzen's superior.

In other words, the feats of other Kages including Hashirama and recently Sandaime Raikage indirectly point out what beast Hiruzen was.





Harbour said:


> Okay, tell me plz from where you take this? You are sure, that you read not a fake interview?



Official Fanbook 2 was released on Naruto's 10th Anniversary. It was in December 2009 which is around the time Pain Invasion arc was ending, I think. Don't get deceived by the name; Kishi himself provided details such as the names of Kages...Minato battling Madara 16 years ago; it was before the chapters were even released.


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## Marsala (Sep 8, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Official Fanbook 2 was released on Naruto's 10th Anniversary. It was in December 2009 which is around the time Pain Invasion arc was ending, I think. Don't get deceived by the name; Kishi himself provided details such as the names of Kages...Minato battling Madara 16 years ago; it was before the chapters were even released.



We need the exact translation. Some vague statement about "being able to handle every jutsu in Konoha" being extrapolated by crazy fans to "OMG HE COULD COUNTER TEH MS AND EMS AND DOUBLE SPECIAL BYAKUSHARINNEGAN!" isn't enough.


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## auem (Sep 8, 2011)

i simply don't understand how someone can doubt sarutobi's fighting ability,who supposed to have mastered all jutsus of konoha....


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## Clearmoon (Sep 8, 2011)

I personally think that after Minato took over, Hiruzen probably let himself go a bit in his retirement (maybe smoking too much, not keeping up active training). Enma was shocked at Hiruzen's lack of stamina compared to the last time he was summoned.

Also, Hiruzen appeared to be holding back against Orochimaru for a large portion of the fight. He was able to easily blitz and disarm an aware Orochimaru in a split second once he had decided to use Edo Tensai (and by extension, to kill Oro) and had dealt with the Edo Hokage's.


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## Skaddix (Sep 8, 2011)

auem said:


> i simply don't understand how someone can doubt sarutobi's fighting ability,who supposed to have mastered all jutsus of konoha....



Simple because its fraking impossible. He cannot use any KKG unless he was body snatching. So he has no Wood Justus, No Sharingan Justsu and no Byukagan Jutsus. Clearly he does not have any space time either or at least not Minato's or Madara's or whatever the Second had. And we already know that without cheating its impossible to have every single element. And I doubt he access to all summons either. Oh and he clearly cannot use Sage Mode either. So we know that is clearly false.


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## Superstars (Sep 8, 2011)

The Professor?!

Death God?

Nizzle please.


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## Skaddix (Sep 8, 2011)

Death God was not even his jutsu. Its Minato's so Prime Hiruzen does not even have his best move.


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## Superstars (Sep 8, 2011)

^Doesn't matter, the Professor still can use it!


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## T-Bag (Sep 8, 2011)

Eternal Goob said:


> It's a shame that the power levels skyrocketed in Part 2 and Sarutobi is seen as some guy who really has nothing impressive.  :/



exactly this. If kishimoto were to re-introduce hiruzen in todays timelike he'd be godlike. too bad kishi did him during part 1.


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 8, 2011)

Skaddix said:


> Death God was not even his jutsu. Its Minato's so Prime Hiruzen does not even have his best move.



in his prime he WAS the death god


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## Chibason (Sep 8, 2011)

Sarutobi <10,000 Fodders?...

I'm guessing he had a shit load of S class jusu that we just never got to see...


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## Harbour (Sep 8, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Official Fanbook 2 was released on Naruto's 10th Anniversary. It was in December 2009 which is around the time Pain Invasion arc was ending, I think. Don't get deceived by the name; Kishi himself provided details such as the names of Kages...Minato battling Madara 16 years ago; it was before the chapters were even released.



okay, but  was no statement about sarutobi in Fanbook2 thread on Nforums, nor in Fb2-thread on mh. 
but okay, what if i belive that hiruzen may counter to ems and ms. But in hiruzen era was neither Madara with EMS(was "dead"), nor Itachi with MS. 
So practically he didnt fight with EMS/Ms user. So he can "counter EMS/MS" only in theory.


And even when manga/book state that he can perform all konoha's jutsu - we must to believe in it without any doubts? I can easily said, that Sarutobi cant use techniqued of elements, which he didnt has, he didnt use a bugs  like Aburame, didnt has a dog like Inuzuka, he cant to use a Yamanaka's techniques(if he can - he may to take an orochimaru mind and command edo tensei do everything he want) etc. So, if he can to handle with all Konoha jutsu, why he cant to handle with ET? Why he cant to handle with violet barrier, which obviosly was konoha's tecnhique(Dan tell konoha's shinobi to use this barrier)? And what we have after that? 
So, in fact - Sarutobi the most hyped character in whole manga. But we didn't see any of his own feats(Death God, which take out Hashi and Tobirama was Minato's tech). Onoki was older, but show us a tremendous power. Hiruzen show B - Doton and Katon, staff. Thats good for jonins. But for "God of shinobi"? Ridiculously. I understand, that manga said about Hiruzen power, but like a statements "Sharingan have a bounds with Byakugan", "Sasuke killed Zabuza", "3RK was ONE, who can faced with bijuu" - this is not the ultimate truth.


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## auem (Sep 8, 2011)

Skaddix said:


> Simple because its fraking impossible. He cannot use any KKG unless he was body snatching. So he has no Wood Justus, No Sharingan Justsu and no Byukagan Jutsus. Clearly he does not have any space time either or at least not Minato's or Madara's or whatever the Second had. And we already know that without cheating its impossible to have every single element. And I doubt he access to all summons either. Oh and he clearly cannot use Sage Mode either. So we know that is clearly false.



i never considered bloodline jutsus, which can't be 'learned'...
i don't know what databook said about it,but so far we only know that nidai could do S/T jutsu and minato surpassed him...that doesn't imply that saruto didn't 'know' how to do it..
i admit even then mastering 'all' other jutsus is simple overstatement,but still it shows his versatility..


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## Skaddix (Sep 8, 2011)

Please the old man was begging for Minato to come back and save his ass. Clearly he could not redirect a menacning ball via space time.


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## Turrin (Sep 8, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Reputation comes off from feats, I believe. Sure, the other Kages are all impressive and have extremely strong techniques but Kishimoto has been consistent with Hiruzen being the strongest. Onoki has dust release and vast experience yet Kishi never indicated him to be Hiruzen's superior.
> 
> In other words, the feats of other Kages including Hashirama and recently Sandaime Raikage indirectly point out what beast Hiruzen was.



1. Hiruzen is called 最強 by Kabuto. 最強 from my understanding is more ambigous in Japanese than its English counter part ["strongest"], so I believe the statement is more like Hiruzen has the reputation of being a powerful Kage even among the other 5, rather than thee de facto strongest. However I'm asking translators about this so we'll see if i'm correct or not.

2. Yes reputation comes from feats, but reputation can be blown out of proportion. I already showed this in reference to a Sannin, which if we go by rep than Itachi should pale in comparison to Orochimaru yet he defeated him. I'm sure Hiruzen did some impressive shit to get his rep, but I don't think it should be used to say Hiruzen is thee de facto strongest Kage, especially in his old age.

3. In terms of Kishi doing things to contradict the fact that Old Hiruzen was the strongest of the 5 Kages, I think the performances of the other Kages compared to Hiruzen act as a contradiction in and off itself. A, Onoki, and Yondaime Kazekage all have better feats than old Hiruzen. 

4. Or Hiruzen just wasn't the strongest Hokage/Kage, which I think is the more rational assumption at this point.


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 8, 2011)

meh, i don't see how yondaime kazekage has better feats


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## Turrin (Sep 8, 2011)

Udontard4ever said:


> meh, i don't see how yondaime kazekage has better feats


What Jutsu has Old Hiruzen showed that compares to Yondaime Kazekage's Gold Dust Avalanche that matched Gaara's Desert Avalanche in width and height? You could argue Shikki Fuuijin, but Hiruzen has to sacrifice his life to use it.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 8, 2011)

Turrin said:


> 1. Hiruzen is called 最強 by Kabuto. 最強 from my understanding is more ambigous in Japanese than its English counter part ["strongest"], so I believe the statement is more like Hiruzen has the reputation of being a powerful Kage even among the other 5, rather than thee de facto strongest. However I'm asking translators about this so we'll see if i'm correct or not.
> 
> 2. Yes reputation comes from feats, but reputation can be blown out of proportion. I already showed this in reference to a Sannin, which if we go by rep than Itachi should pale in comparison to Orochimaru yet he defeated him. I'm sure Hiruzen did some impressive shit to get his rep, but I don't think it should be used to say Hiruzen is thee de facto strongest Kage, especially in his old age.
> 
> ...



Except the most obvious answer is power scaling.

When Kishi gave Hiruzen a battle in part I and made that statement he most likely did not implement the idea of other Kages of the same era battling trough Edo Tensei

If Hiruzen would get a battle now with Part II standards/powerscaling he would no doubt have more impressive feats

But for now his reputation should do. Hiruzen > other Kages


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 8, 2011)

Turrin said:


> What Jutsu has Old Hiruzen showed that compares to Yondaime Kazekage's Gold Dust Avalanche that matched Gaara's Desert Avalanche in width and height? You could argue Shikki Fuuijin, but Hiruzen has to sacrifice his life to use it.




yeah, flashy, but quite ineffective


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## Turrin (Sep 8, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> Except the most obvious answer is power scaling.
> 
> When Kishi gave Hiruzen a battle in part I and made that statement he most likely did not implement the idea of other Kages of the same era battling trough Edo Tensei
> 
> If Hiruzen would get a battle now with Part II standards/powerscaling he would no doubt have more impressive feats


I'm not sure I buy the power scaling excuse entirely. Itachi fought in Part I and the skills he showed in Part I are still consider incredibly powerful even by current Part II standards. For example Hand-seal speed, Tsukuyomi, Exploding KB, and Amaterasu. Like wise the skills Orochimaru showed in Part I also remain incredibly powerful even by Part II standards. For example Edo Tensei, Fuushi Tensei, and Manda. 

So if Kishi wanted old Hiruzen to be seen as stronger than the rest of the Kages he could have easily given him skills like these that would still remain relevant even by Part II standards, so why didn't he? The only explanation I can think of is that Kishi didn't want Old Hiruzen to be able to compete with the monsters were seeing in Part II. A younger Hiruzen's another story because we still haven't seen him fight, but I think its fairly clear that Old Hiruzen can't compete with the other Kages, except for maybe Mei, but Mei hasn't gotten her chance to fight all out yet.



> But for now his reputation should do. Hiruzen > other Kages


Itachi pails in comparison to Jiriaya according to Jiriaya's reputation, yet your constantly arguing Jiriaya isn't even in the same league as Itachi and couldn't even injure him, due to your opinion of Itachi's feats. Yet in the case of Hiruzen you say that we should blindly believe the rep he got from other random nameless people? What a huge double standard. 

All I ask if for some consistency. If you believe we should go with rep, than you have to believe Itachi pails in comparison to Jiriaya. If you think rep is just pure hype like the Itachi being invincible comment than you should be open to the idea that there were other Kage stronger than Old Hiruzen.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Sep 8, 2011)

Lets say that hiruzen in his prime had 5's all around.
That would give him the best base scores ever, however the problem lies in his lack of supplementary jutsu.

It isn't enough to an extraordinary human. You have to become super human.
Just spamming attacks doesn't increase your personal performance. That is what the whole problem was about. Sarutobi had nothing to increase his physical and mental performance. 

Tsunade for example, uses a transformation jutsu to actually become young, which only runs out when she is about to die, but for all intended purposes, she has the health of a 29< year old woman. And the tits of a cow.
Aside from that, she uses chakra to enhance her strength, and then a yin seal to keep a reserve of chakra around just for lulz.

Orochimaru has a physical age of whomever he posesses, thus never feels aged.

Since jiraya is a horrible example, Fukusaku is a 900 year old magic frog. And his body shows it. Geezer of a frog, him. However, by using sage mode, his body becomes invigorated and he can perform tasks far outside of usual capability.



You can't just go around being a badass normal all the time.
It's kind of shitty. Now, No matter how badass Hiruzen was, not a soul can tell me he wouldn't be MORE badass with a decent supplement.

They are like seat belts. You could drive without them, but it's stupid.
You could fight without supplementary jutsu, but it's stupid.



Only way prime hiruzen could even come close is through use of the gates, something he may have undoubtedly mastered, but that is what he would have needed to put himself on that level. He would have to be like... Gai level at taijutsu, Itachi level at genjutsu(at finger casting level), and have access to the gates for casting ninjutsu.


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## cant i guest post (Sep 8, 2011)

remember that scroll naruto stole in chapter 1 containing all those forbidden jutsus.  yeah he probably knew those.

also i'm guessing that's where oro found the secrets for edo tensei.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 8, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Lets say that hiruzen in his prime had 5's all around.
> That would give him the best base scores ever, however the problem lies in his lack of supplementary jutsu.
> 
> It isn't enough to an extraordinary human. You have to become super human.
> ...



Gai did say in the Chuunin exams that if you open all 8 Gates that you temporarily become stronger than the Hokage, and Hiruzen was the Hokage when he said that. We've also seen how powerful Gai got when he opened 6 and 7 gates. So that's something to consider.



Turrin said:


> I'm not sure I buy the power scaling excuse  entirely. Itachi fought in Part I and the skills he showed in Part I are  still consider incredibly powerful even by current Part II standards.  For example Hand-seal speed, Tsukuyomi, Exploding KB, and Amaterasu.  Like wise the skills Orochimaru showed in Part I also remain incredibly  powerful even by Part II standards. For example Edo Tensei, Fuushi  Tensei, and Manda.



Pt.1 Orochimaru showed: 

Curse Mark Seal
Edo Tensei
Five Elemental Seal
Great Breakthrough
Hidden Shadow Snakes
Kusanagi
Leech All Creation
Living Corpse Reincarnation
Slithering Snake Tail
Snake Summoning
Soften Body Modification
Vanishing Facial Copy

Great jutsus, but compare their "power" to what he showed in pt. 2:

Many Hidden Shadow Snakes
Myriad Snake Net Formation
Orochi Kawarimi
Snake Authority Spell
Triple Rashoumon
True Form
White Snake Power
Yamata no Orochi

If pt. 1 Orochimaru only had those jutsus, and pt. 2 Orochimaru only had   those jutsus, pt.2 Orochimaru would likely win; his poison   would probably even paralyze the Edo Tenseis like Hanzo's poison did to   himself and then Orochimaru 2 would kill Orochimaru 1.



Turrin said:


> Itachi pails in comparison to Jiriaya according  to Jiriaya's reputation,  yet your constantly arguing Jiriaya isn't even  in the same league as  Itachi and couldn't even injure him, due to your  opinion of Itachi's  feats. Yet in the case of Hiruzen you say that we  should blindly believe  the rep he got from other random nameless  people? What a huge double  standard.



The majority of people on these boards argue whatever proves them right, consistency is irrelevant.

But I do agree with him that Kishimoto would give Hiruzen more impressive feats. Kishimoto even went out of his way in the last fanbook to say that Hiruzen even had counters to the MS and EMS.


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## Turrin (Sep 8, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Pt.1 Orochimaru showed:
> 
> Curse Mark Seal
> Edo Tensei
> ...


I disagree with you man. I think Part I Oro would win due to Edo Tensei. Part I Oro can bring back 3 warriors perfectly suit to exploit Part II Oro's weaknesses which he would know since he's well Oro. And I think Edo Tensei is still by far Oro's best Jutsu which he showed in Part I. I also think Part I Oro's performance against Hiruzen was by far his best performance in the manga only slightly sullied by his over confidence. 



> The majority of people on these boards argue whatever proves them right, consistency is irrelevant.


This I totally agree with


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## SaVaGe609 (Sep 8, 2011)

Yikes. You people are knee deep in this stuff.

IMO, it's simply a matter of power inflation. Kishi saved his ass, however, by not showing us _Prime_ Hiruzen, who is left to our imagination.

Kishi lives in the moment. The character he's currently trying to hype is the strongest character in the Narutoverse


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 9, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I disagree with you man. I think Part I Oro would win due to Edo Tensei. Part I Oro can bring back 3 warriors perfectly suit to exploit Part II Oro's weaknesses which he would know since he's well Oro. And I think Edo Tensei is still by far Oro's best Jutsu which he showed in Part I. I also think Part I Oro's performance against Hiruzen was by far his best performance in the manga only slightly sullied by his over confidence.



I do agree that Edo Tensei is unbelievably hax. Anyone Orochimaru brings back would be hard enough to deal with one-on-one while alive, but having to fight multiple high-level ninjas at the same time, especially immortal ones? Simply suicide. 

But still, the point I was hoping to elaborate upon was that (Edo Tensei aside) Orochimaru became substantially more powerful in pt.2. He became literally immortal with incredible regenerative abilities via White Snake Power, True Form, and Oro Kawarimi. Those are two things he was never established to have in pt.1. Ultimately Living Corpse Reincarnation was only his method to remain young forevever, while his other abilities allowed him to be virtually unkillable. In addition to that he was given poisonous blood which makes wounding him suicidal. The other abilities he was given was the ability to spit a tidal wave of snakes with swords in their mouths, extend two poisonous boa constrictors from his body, and he was given the imposing and frightful Yamata no Orochi jutsu that even Manda's scared of. Or his meager Hidden Shadow Snakes, which launched 3 snakes, was upgraded to Many Hidden Shadow Snakes which launches about a dozen. Lastly, Triple Rashoumon allows him to defend himself from almost anything and Kusanagi was given the ability to extend vast distances and strike with rock crushing force.

As for Orochimaru's performance against Hiruzen in pt. 1, he really didn't do much, he mostly let the Senju bros. fight for him. His fight with KN4 was probably his most impressive battle.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 9, 2011)

Alot of things people don't seem to understand about Hiruzen is that he clearly didn't show us all he has to offer in his fight with Orochimaru. For instance, he has never displayed Genjutsu before but the databook gives him a 5 in it. He obviously has a lot more to offer than what he has shown.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 9, 2011)

Louis-954 said:


> Alot of things people don't seem to understand about Hiruzen is that he clearly didn't show us all he has to offer in his fight with Orochimaru. For instance, he has never displayed Genjutsu before but the databook gives him a 5 in it. He obviously has a lot more to offer than what he has shown.



Agreed. With his chakra levels suffering from old age and facing three immortal opponents, he only used what was necessary. Flowing Earth Wall for defense, Enma for support, and Reaper Death Seal for the kill. Using any hax jutsus he likely had would had just wasted chakra, he had to finish it quickly before they killed him. And besides, that was still only old Hiruzen's feats that we saw.


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## Turrin (Sep 9, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> I do agree that Edo Tensei is unbelievably hax. Anyone Orochimaru brings back would be hard enough to deal with one-on-one while alive, but having to fight multiple high-level ninjas at the same time, especially immortal ones? Simply suicide.
> 
> But still, the point I was hoping to elaborate upon was that (Edo Tensei aside) Orochimaru became substantially more powerful in pt.2. He became literally immortal with incredible regenerative abilities via White Snake Power, True Form, and Oro Kawarimi. Those are two things he was never established to have in pt.1. Ultimately Living Corpse Reincarnation was only his method to remain young forevever, while his other abilities allowed him to be virtually unkillable. In addition to that he was given poisonous blood which makes wounding him suicidal. The other abilities he was given was the ability to spit a tidal wave of snakes with swords in their mouths, extend two poisonous boa constrictors from his body, and he was given the imposing and frightful Yamata no Orochi jutsu that even Manda's scared of. Or his meager Hidden Shadow Snakes, which launched 3 snakes, was upgraded to Many Hidden Shadow Snakes which launches about a dozen. Lastly, Triple Rashoumon allows him to defend himself from almost anything and Kusanagi was given the ability to extend vast distances and strike with rock crushing force.
> 
> As for Orochimaru's performance against Hiruzen in pt. 1, he really didn't do much, he mostly let the Senju bros. fight for him. His fight with KN4 was probably his most impressive battle.


But basically your argument seems to be that Part II Oro is better if we ignore Edo Tensei which doesn't make sense to me. Oro in Part I had a better performance and better Jutsu due to Edo Tensei, of course if we restrict it for some reason than Part II Oro is better, but my point is that people are saying power scaling is why Old Hiruzen comes off as weaker than the other Kage, but if Kishi really wanted him to be above the other Kage than why didn't he give him a jutsu like Edo Tensei or Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu for that matter. Its because of this that I don't see power scaling as an excuse.


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## Skaddix (Sep 9, 2011)

Please Real Gods Counter Old Age or ignore it.

The Sannin, 3rd Raikage, Ei, Oonki, Danzo, Chiyo, Sasori, and Kakazu are all shown to be quite effective in old age. Using various methods to stay combative.


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## Lelouch71 (Sep 9, 2011)

Skaddix said:


> Please Real Gods Counter Old Age or ignore it.
> 
> The Sannin, 3rd Raikage, Ei, Oonki, Danzo, Chiyo, Sasori, and Kakazu are all shown to be quite effective in old age. Using various methods to stay combative.


With the exception of the two Raikages, Oonoki, and Jiraiya everyone else are ashame of their old age. Even then Oonoki is weaker than his prime. Jiraiya, Ei, and 3rd Raikage are likely in their 50s. There's a big difference between your 50s and your late 60s.


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## Eisenheim (Sep 9, 2011)

We just haven't seen prime Hiruzen that's the main problem. He was hype to be the strongest but so far with the introduction of other Kage's with their new powerful abilities he now being overshadowed. Kishi should make a Sarutobi Gaiden now.


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 9, 2011)

but is this prime hiruzen thing debated in japanese forums? just curious


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 9, 2011)

Turrin said:


> But basically your argument seems to be that Part II Oro is better if we ignore Edo Tensei which doesn't make sense to me. Oro in Part I had a better performance and better Jutsu due to Edo Tensei, of course if we restrict it for some reason than Part II Oro is better, but my point is that people are saying power scaling is why Old Hiruzen comes off as weaker than the other Kage, but if Kishi really wanted him to be above the other Kage than why didn't he give him a jutsu like Edo Tensei or Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu for that matter. Its because of this that I don't see power scaling as an excuse.



Trying to use the abilities Orochimaru gains in pt.2 in contrast to pt.1 to show the powerscaling in effect. There are plenty of other examples though, like Kisame or Hashirama. Hashirama's showings are worse than Hiruzen's, yet he gets MAJOR hype in pt.2. The body and yang chakra of Rikudou, trees big enough to bind 100% Kyuubi, could use Suiton and Doton too, had Bijuus for pets, was the most powerful guy in the world with people like Muu running around and beat up the guy that was more powerful than Itachi. How's that for powerscaling?

I understand what you're saying about Hiruzen not showing anything impressive like all of the others. But at the same time, they did use the excuse that he didn't have alot of chakra anymore and it was pointless to try to kill any of them without Reaper Death Seal. Orochimaru even commented that it's part of Hiruzen's normal fighting style to test out the opponent with Shadow Clones, which he wasn't doing because of his diminished chakra.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2011)

arednad said:


> The databook explained these two detail in more detail, but it is true we only got teasers. However, it shows these moves were always there. Secondly the data book split up jutsu into ranks. Look at how few S and A rank jutsu were actually shown in part 1. Kishimoto purposely ranked most jutsu at B-rank indicating there was more to come.



Yeah I mean they were there, but they weren't being actively used. Amaterasu was used as an escape mechanism off panel.

Kishimoto did a successfull job I agree, he introduced those super haxxed jutsu, but kept their essentials hidden. We didn't see them on action, we only knew such jutsu existed.



> Mifune manages just fine with his sword. Even in part 2 Zabuza was a serious threat with his mist and silent assassination technique (something Hiruzen would counter with ease). In part 1 Temari showed on of the flashiest jutsu, but no one thought she was one of the strongest genin.


Based on what ? His display against Hanzou ? Hanzou was pretty much fodder in his edo state.
Mifune would get destroyed by most high tier shinobi. 

Zabuza was taken down in 2 panels by Kakashi with some support in the current arc.
Zabuza is wave arc Kakashi level and Kakashi defeated him fairly easily the second time around.

Temari only showed flash jutsu when she came in to rescue Shikamaru, and she was basically a plot device @ that point. So noone gave a fuck. 



> That is just one example of how he could fight based on what we saw. However, he probably used Enma which can alter his shape. If Mifune can cope with just a sword think what Hiruzen can do with an adamantine, shape changing staff.


We've already seen what he can do, when he was fighting for his life.
But you know, after seeing shit like Frog Katas, Gates, Raiton Armor etc, sole taijutsu comes off as rather, insignificant.
Enma is cool and all but, didn't Orochimaru dispatch him easily with hidden snake hands ? 


> Itachi, Mifune, Zabuza, Shikamaru and Minato all cope fine without resorting to flash jutsu.


Um...
Both Minato's and Itachi's high tier arsenal consist of flash jutsus, which are the things that put them on top tier.

Mifune, Zabuza and Shikamaru are small players. They are good in their own game. But you don't want to pit them against Kage level shinobi.
I wouldn't put them in the same tier as Itachi and Minato.
Because when I start comparing Susano'o, STJ variants to kage mane, hidden mist and IAI, the gap between them becomes very visible.



> However, if you want to see flash jutsu then have a look at these from part 1.
> this does
> this does
> this does
> ...


Compare them to Susano'o, CT, Jinton, Kisame's 300m shark tsunami, frog song, Gedou MAzou, Kirabi V2, C3, C4 etc.



> This is true for most stories and there has been slight power inflation most notable in the number of jutsu a ninja can use, without exhaustion. However, he has been very consisted about power.


I respectfully disagree.
Most people thought Kisame to be roughly Kakashi level in part 1. 
And I still am behind my argument that Hirzuen would stand absolutely no chance against any high tier shinobi right now.



> Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, Hiraishin, Edo Tensei, Shiki Fujin are still the best moves about. In part 1 we saw most chunin, genin, a couple of jounin, and the handicapped Sannin. In part 2 we are seeing the best the shinobi world has to offer.



I agree that in part 1, it was more about chuunin and genins.
And that is why it wasn't so impressive based on power levels.
However, it doesn't change my views on the 'kage level' battle we witnessed between Hiruzen and Orochimaru. 

That battle would be mediocre @ best by part 2's standarts.


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## stevensr123 (Sep 9, 2011)

Skaddix said:


> Please Real Gods Counter Old Age or ignore it.
> 
> The Sannin, 3rd Raikage, Ei, Oonki, Danzo, Chiyo, Sasori, and Kakazu are all shown to be quite effective in old age. Using various methods to stay combative.



Chiyo's battle style doesn't require moving about, much chakra, and she probably get's stronger with age because her puppet jutsu gets more experience etc.

Danzou had hashirama's DNA, aka part of the body of the sage and the DNA of one of the greatest ninja ever. his DNA alone gives danzo the ability to use shisui's genjutsu MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY instead of a year. It's pretty clear why he didn't get weaker with age 

Sasori isn't even a human, enough said. 

onoki has obviously been effected by old age, he can't even move about any more, and HAS to resort to flying. Old age has probably effected him most.

Jiraiya is in his 50's, not even 60 yet. and he is a sage of course.

Kakuza isn't even human either, It's obvious his body is not old, because he would be a pathetic, old, unable to move man.


Hiruzan's fighting style was obviously greatly effected,  however his performance back in part 1 and his performance if he was alive today, would differ greatly.

Its obvious the power scaling has greatly changed in part 2.


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## Kotoamatsukami (Sep 9, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> So... how exactly was Sarutobi regarded as the strongest Kage when he still had this guy running around?
> 
> Sarutobi obviously didn't know Shiki Fujin back then, over 17 years ago, which is the only technique that could take out the Raikage. Plus, I very much doubt he could compete with him when it comes to speed, as well.



Was it really Kage? Or just Hokage?


But yeah, I feel the same tbh. Sandaime wasnt extremely impressive against Oro and neither was he 12 years before when they fought Kyuubi. I?m still wondering what he really had up his sleeves.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 9, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I'm not sure I buy the power scaling excuse entirely. Itachi fought in Part I and the skills he showed in Part I are still consider incredibly powerful even by current Part II standards. For example Hand-seal speed, Tsukuyomi, Exploding KB, and Amaterasu. Like wise the skills Orochimaru showed in Part I also remain incredibly powerful even by Part II standards. For example Edo Tensei, Fuushi Tensei, and Manda.



Yess these showed powerful jutsus indeed, but I meant that Hiruzen did not show any "flashy" jutsus like current battles like to show. For part II standards Hiruzen would have showed some more jutsus and his fight would have been extended.
I know very well Orochimaru's ET were not as powerful as the originals, but is doesn't diminish the fact that Hiruzen took on on 2 of them. Of course he was barely getting by, but the did not get raped on the spot. Its almost like Muu taking on 2 Kages (Gaara & oonoki). And Shiki Fuin was his only option to SEAL 3!!! Kage level characters
Also I'd like to point out that when Hiruzen did activate his jutsu he was easily pawning Orochimari in CQC allowing him to grab him for the SEAL

There is also the argument that Oro was being arrogant and toying with him. Which is true, but Orochimaru ALWAYS has that arrogant attitude and creepy smile no matter who his opponent it. See KN4 Battle

Seriously Hiurzen:
- was holding his own against ET Shodai & Nidaime
- was pawning Oro in CQC
- Only choice to seal 3 Kage level persons was Shiki Fuin
- Sofar Hiruzen was the only character to be able to stop a ET from being summoned. Doesn't matter if the coffin wouldn't be summoned anyway, but Hiruzen recognized it and knew how to stop it

Even at Old age Hiruzen was impressive. 




> So if Kishi wanted old Hiruzen to be seen as stronger than the rest of the Kages he could have easily given him skills like these that would still remain relevant even by Part II standards, so why didn't he? The only explanation I can think of is that Kishi didn't want Old Hiruzen to be able to compete with the monsters were seeing in Part II. A younger Hiruzen's another story because we still haven't seen him fight, but I think its fairly clear that Old Hiruzen can't compete with the other Kages, except for maybe Mei, but Mei hasn't gotten her chance to fight all out yet.



Ecxept Kishi didn't give much thought to the other Kages. Yondaime Kazekage was off paneled for god sakes. Not to mention he used the same fighting style as Gaara. You'd guess that at least some one would make a comment about that. But it was clear Kishi didn't have a background/jutsus for other Kages back then

From all the current Kages I can see OLD Hiruzen holding his own against Mei, Oonoki & Gaara. A is probably more troublesome

Mei has KG, which is cool and all, but not something thats gonna win you a battle. Hiruzen had a great ninjutsu knowledge/display himself. Not to mention full marks for taijusu & Genjtusu & Intelligence. From what we have seen he could take Mei. But like you said Mei hasn't gone all out so..
Oonoki the same. Jinton is cool, but not unavoidable. Flying is troublesome, but not something that should put him on another tier. 
Gaara is impressive, but like Deidara did, I can see genius Hiruzen figuring out the Sans shield and bypass it. Of course Hiurzen would need something to survive massive Sand onslaught. But he has shown some great Doton walls/protection. So I'm guessing he has some mastery over Doton which allows  for a good defense. But the key for Gaara is outsmarting him
A...massive stamina,speed,taijutsu,physcial strength. Only option is to outsmart him, which I can see Hiruzen do. Except that he might not live long enough. Not sure Enma would be much of a help either against such speed and strength. Unless Enma's defense really is "diamond" stuff which could give Hiurzen some protection




> Itachi pails in comparison to Jiriaya according to Jiriaya's reputation, yet your constantly arguing Jiriaya isn't even in the same league as Itachi and couldn't even injure him, due to your opinion of Itachi's feats. Yet in the case of Hiruzen you say that we should blindly believe the rep he got from other random nameless people? What a huge double standard.



Where does Itachi pale in Jiraya rep? I never ever once bought that Jiraya rep > Itachi rep. Jiraya has the rep of a Sannin, the same rep Itachi shitted on at age 11



> All I ask if for some consistency. If you believe we should go with rep, than you have to believe Itachi pails in comparison to Jiriaya. If you think rep is just pure hype like the Itachi being invincible comment than you should be open to the idea that there were other Kage stronger than Old Hiruzen.



Of course there were other Kage > Old Hiruzen. It was not until he battles Oro that he figured out how much he declined. Even Enma called him a shadow or pathetic or something. I'm saying that Hiruzen would not get utterly raped by current Kages. He would hold his own against Mei, Oonoki, Gaara. Not saying he would win on the spot but he would not get raped either. its a 50/50 for me with the above mentioned Kages. Only A I can see being more adept at beating him quickly 

But Hiruzen was also alive during the reign of Sandaime Raikage. And that dude  was also a beast. He has shown a lot of things Yondaime Raikage had (except Lightning Armor V2 - I'm guessing that kinda speed level is exclusive to A). But he has shown also a massive stamina, Black Lightning and also the nin-taijutsu A uses, except a bit different
And Prime Hiruzen was said > Sandaime Raikage. So I'm guessing Hiruzen would have some ninjutsu or genjutsu which allows him to take on Sandaime Raikage. Cuz no way Hiruzen had the speed or stamina or physical strength to outclass Sandaime Raikage.
That same ninjutsu or genjutsu would no doubt also work against A. So even against A Hiruzen should have a good chance, except not on anything he has shown in terms of feats, but in terms of reputation


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## Ghost of Madara (Sep 9, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> But I do agree with him that Kishimoto would give Hiruzen more impressive feats. Kishimoto even went out of his way in the last fanbook to say that Hiruzen even had counters to the MS and EMS.



Please desist from promoting this blatant falsehood.  The Naruto Fanbook 2 never states such a thing.


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## Hasan (Sep 9, 2011)

Harbour said:


> okay, but  was no statement about sarutobi in Fanbook2 thread on Nforums, nor in Fb2-thread on mh.
> but okay, what if i belive that hiruzen may counter to ems and ms. But in hiruzen era was neither Madara with EMS(was "dead"), nor Itachi with MS.
> So practically he didnt fight with EMS/Ms user. So he can "counter EMS/MS" only in theory.
> 
> ...



It's the same case as Kakashi. Kishi simply said that Hiruzen knows every jutsu in Konoha. He doesn't need to waste panels just to show those techniques. His only fight in the manga was when he was old. Like _UltimateDeadPool_ said, he needed to end the fight as quickly as possible. Even ANBU noted that his chakra and stamina had decreased a great degree due to his old age.

It's a given that Hiruzen > Every other Kage, so it's pretty easy to power scale him by part 2 standards:

*1.* Hashirama stood at the top of the world during his time; had bijuu under his command and was a formidable fighter. There was something about Hiruzen that put him leagues above Hashirama.

*2.* Onoki, A/Ei; they're ridiculously overpowered. Again, one has to think Hiruzen was that much of a beast.

*3.* Hiruzen was Hokage during Sandaime Raikage's reign too. Yet again, Hiruzen was stronger.

*4.* Minato thought Hiruzen was capable of fighting Kyuubi. It doesn't matter others helped Hiruzen.

*5.* During the Chuunin exams, Gai mentions that opening the 8 gates temporarily gives you power rivalling Hiruzen's.

My point is, Kages' strength indirectly point to what Hiruzen was truly capable of. Even though, Hiruzen isn't mentioned.


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## Skaddix (Sep 9, 2011)

Please he cannot do anything to Ei lets get Real. Sasuke with MS  cannot keep up at all old Hiruzen gets killed before he even finishes his summon.

Oonki flies wtf is Hiruzen going to do.

Hype alone is not enough. Because lets face it others have not really lived up to there hype either.


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## CA182 (Sep 9, 2011)

Skaddix said:


> Please he cannot do anything to Ei lets get Real. Sasuke with MS  cannot keep up at all old Hiruzen gets killed before he even finishes his summon.
> 
> Oonki flies wtf is Hiruzen going to do.
> 
> Hype alone is not enough. Because lets face it others have not really lived up to there hype either.



The issue is when kage like Muu exist. He would have happily taken advantage of Konoha's weakness after tobirama died and attacked them to gain more power if Hiruzen was as feeble as you imply.

The fact Konoha never lost it's status as the strongest village while he was hokage says an awful lot about his power when he was in his prime.

Also it's logical, Kishi is never gonna make any of the past Hokages weak or Naruto surpassing them all becomes less dramatic.


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## auem (Sep 9, 2011)

who knows,hiruzen may fought against sandaime raikage(high chance considering both were old when they died)...he must had match him to come out unscathed...


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## Turrin (Sep 9, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Trying to use the abilities Orochimaru gains in pt.2 in contrast to pt.1 to show the powerscaling in effect. There are plenty of other examples though, like Kisame or Hashirama. Hashirama's showings are worse than Hiruzen's, yet he gets MAJOR hype in pt.2. The body and yang chakra of Rikudou, trees big enough to bind 100% Kyuubi, could use Suiton and Doton too, had Bijuus for pets, was the most powerful guy in the world with people like Muu running around and beat up the guy that was more powerful than Itachi. How's that for powerscaling?
> 
> I understand what you're saying about Hiruzen not showing anything impressive like all of the others. But at the same time, they did use the excuse that he didn't have alot of chakra anymore and it was pointless to try to kill any of them without Reaper Death Seal. Orochimaru even commented that it's part of Hiruzen's normal fighting style to test out the opponent with Shadow Clones, which he wasn't doing because of his diminished chakra.


Sure Prime Hiruzen may have been stronger, but i'm talking about old Hiruzen. Like I said if Kishi wanted Old Hiruzen to be the strongest of the 5 kages he could have given him a jutsu like Edo Tensei, Tsukuyomi, or Amaterasu. Orochimaru doesn't really prove the power scaling effect since he showed his strongest Jutsu in Part I.

Kisame also isn't a good example because Kisame never actually fought all out in Part I and Kisame is not so old he couldn't have become stronger over the Time-skip. Its hard to say anything about Hashirama since we haven't seen him fight yet, but there are reasons aside from powerscaling for his poor performance in the Orochimaru battle.


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## Skaddix (Sep 9, 2011)

CA182 said:


> The issue is when kage like Muu exist. He would have happily taken advantage of Konoha's weakness after tobirama died and attacked them to gain more power if Hiruzen was as feeble as you imply.
> 
> The fact Konoha never lost it's status as the strongest village while he was hokage says an awful lot about his power when he was in his prime.
> 
> Also it's logical, Kishi is never gonna make any of the past Hokages weak or Naruto surpassing them all becomes less dramatic.



Muu was probably already dead. And sure wars would be quicker if Kages like Muu just flew direct and tried to nuke but u have to move your army first. 

Do u read databooks? They rank both Kumo and Iwa as stronger. Kumo also has the highest rated economy.

The fact remains. Hiruzen's best shown Justu was copied from Minato who is at least half Hiruzen's age so really he is not that impressive. The fact its a suicide technique does not help either. Also important his Prime Version would not have it. So really that leaves him with his staff not that great. 

Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Itachi all had and showed impressive techniques in Part 1.


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## CA182 (Sep 9, 2011)

Skaddix said:


> Muu was probably already dead. And sure wars would be quicker if Kages like Muu just flew direct and tried to nuke but u have to move your army first.
> 
> Do u read databooks? They rank both Kumo and Iwa as stronger. Kumo also has the highest rated economy.
> 
> ...



The databooks only show Konoha as weaker than Iwa and Kumo after Konoha was assaulted by both the sand-sound war and pains invasion.
Before the sound-sand war under Hiruzen they were the strongest village. (When I find the quote from Databook 1 I'll post it here.)

Also Hiruzen held off the first and second hokage along with Orochimaru afterwards, far past his prime.

Honestly Hiruzen's greatest strength isn't his jutsu but his knowledge imo. Most shinobi battles are determined by knowledge. Recognising an attack to be a certain nature, knowing a weakness etc. Hiruzen obviously knew enough that even Orochimaru's immortality technique was known to him.

I still don't get why people don't want to believe that Hiruzen could actually be strong. Only Hiruzen and the rikudou sennin held the nickname "God of Shinobi." 
Also does anyone actually believe Kishi will make any Hokage weak?
If he did it'd defeat Naruto's goal/dream of becoming stronger than them all when he's Hokage.


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## Turrin (Sep 9, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> Yess these showed powerful jutsus indeed, but I meant that Hiruzen did not show any "flashy" jutsus like current battles like to show. For part II standards Hiruzen would have showed some more jutsus and his fight would have been extended


There are flashy Jutsu in Part I, so why didn't Kishi give Hiruzen a flashy Jutsu? Power scaling is not an excuse when there were Ninja in Part I who had Jutsu flashy and strong enough that they are still some of the strongest Jutsu in Part II



> I know very well Orochimaru's ET were not as powerful as the originals, but is doesn't diminish the fact that Hiruzen took on on 2 of them. Of course he was barely getting by, but the did not get raped on the spot. Its almost like Muu taking on 2 Kages (Gaara & oonoki). And Shiki Fuin was his only option to SEAL 3!!! Kage level characters


Basically what happened was: Orochimaru toyed with Hiruzen which allowed him to activate a suicide technique which allowed him to defeat the significantly weaker ET Hokage at the cost of his life.

To me that diminishes his feat.



> Also I'd like to point out that when Hiruzen did activate his jutsu he was easily pawning Orochimari in CQC allowing him to grab him for the SEAL


Hiruzen didn't pawn him he just managed to grab Orochimaru after a long struggle and its not like Orochimaru is a CQC beast anyway.



> There is also the argument that Oro was being arrogant and toying with him. Which is true, but Orochimaru ALWAYS has that arrogant attitude and creepy smile no matter who his opponent it. See KN4 Battle


Orochimaru is always arrogant, but in that battle he was toying with his opponent like none other. Oro was basically sitting back and eating popcorn while ordering the Hokage to toy with Hiruzen for his own amusement.



> Sofar Hiruzen was the only character to be able to stop a ET from being summoned. Doesn't matter if the coffin wouldn't be summoned anyway, but Hiruzen recognized it and knew how to stop it


The coffin stopped because Minato wasn't a viable Tensei, who knows if Hiruzen's Jutsu would have stopped it if it were.



> Even at Old age Hiruzen was impressive.


Impressive but not the strongest of the 5 Kages, not by a long shot.



> Ecxept Kishi didn't give much thought to the other Kages. Yondaime Kazekage was off paneled for god sakes. Not to mention he used the same fighting style as Gaara. You'd guess that at least some one would make a comment about that. But it was clear Kishi didn't have a background/jutsus for other Kages back then


If Kishi didn't know how powerful he was going to make the other Kages when he gave Hiruzen his hype that just makes the statement even more dubious



> Mei has KG, which is cool and all, but not something thats gonna win you a battle. Hiruzen had a great ninjutsu knowledge/display himself. Not to mention full marks for taijusu & Genjtusu & Intelligence. From what we have seen he could take Mei. *But like you said Mei hasn't gone all out so..*


The bold is all that matters so there is no point in even discussing this further



> Oonoki the same. Jinton is cool, but not unavoidable. Flying is troublesome, but not something that should put him on another tier.


Onoki only need to touch Hiruzen to turn him to stone or one hit with Jinton, do you really think Hiruzen can prevent this with his 3 in speed. 



> Gaara is impressive, but like Deidara did, I can see genius Hiruzen figuring out the Sans shield and bypass it. Of course Hiurzen would need something to survive massive Sand onslaught. But he has shown some great Doton walls/protection. So I'm guessing he has some mastery over Doton which allows for a good defense. But the key for Gaara is outsmarting him


Shouldn't we be discussing Yondaime Kazekage? Anyway Hiruzen has no way to survive Gold Dust Avalanche and I don't see him being able to avoid even Yondaime Kazekage's lesser Gold Dust attacks considering they move as fast as Garaa's gourd sand and he's got a 3 in speed. Also how is he going to even get past the Gold Dust to damage Yondaime Kazekage?



> A...massive stamina,speed,taijutsu,physcial strength. Only option is to outsmart him, which I can see Hiruzen do. Except that he might not live long enough. Not sure Enma would be much of a help either against such speed and strength. Unless Enma's defense really is "diamond" stuff which could give Hiurzen some protection


Hiruzen can't damage A and he can't land an attack on A. If A uses his speed Hiruzen gets easily blitz. Hiruzen stands zero chance against A.



> Where does Itachi pale in Jiraya rep? I never ever once bought that Jiraya rep > Itachi rep.



_Kisame: "It was great finally finding him at the Ramen Shop, But... his babysitter is one of the three great shinobi of Konoha legend"

Kisame: "With him as our enemy, even the titles Konoha's Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison."_



> Jiraya has the rep of a Sannin, the same rep Itachi shitted on at age 11


So you admit Rep can be wrong than?



> Of course there were other Kage > Old Hiruzen. It was not until he battles Oro that he figured out how much he declined. Even Enma called him a shadow or pathetic or something. I'm saying that Hiruzen would not get utterly raped by current Kages. He would hold his own against Mei, Oonoki, Gaara. Not saying he would win on the spot but he would not get raped either. its a 50/50 for me with the above mentioned Kages. Only A I can see being more adept at beating him quickly


Onoki and Gaara would rape Old Hiruzen based on what each has shown. Mei he wouldn't get rapped by but she hasn't even gotten a real fight yet in the manga so big deal. A would break him in half over his knee like a stick.

Old Hiruzen does not compare to any of the Kage.



> But Hiruzen was also alive during the reign of Sandaime Raikage. And that dude was also a beast. He has shown a lot of things Yondaime Raikage had (except Lightning Armor V2 - I'm guessing that kinda speed level is exclusive to A). But he has shown also a massive stamina, Black Lightning and also the nin-taijutsu A uses, except a bit different
> And Prime Hiruzen was said > Sandaime Raikage. So I'm guessing Hiruzen would have some ninjutsu or genjutsu which allows him to take on Sandaime Raikage. Cuz no way Hiruzen had the speed or stamina or physical strength to outclass Sandaime Raikage.
> That same ninjutsu or genjutsu would no doubt also work against A. So even against A Hiruzen should have a good chance, except not on anything he has shown in terms of feats, but in terms of reputation


Prime Hiruzen was never said to be stronger than Sandaime Raikage.


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## B.o.t.i (Sep 9, 2011)

Is not up to par with these previous kages at all.

all he had was enma that aint gonna cut it now


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## Harbour (Sep 9, 2011)

Hasan said:


> It's the same case as Kakashi. Kishi simply said that Hiruzen knows every jutsu in Konoha. He doesn't need to waste panels just to show those techniques. His only fight in the manga was when he was old. Like _UltimateDeadPool_ said, he needed to end the fight as quickly as possible. Even ANBU noted that his chakra and stamina had decreased a great degree due to his old age.
> 
> It's a given that Hiruzen > Every other Kage, so it's pretty easy to power scale him by part 2 standards:
> 
> ...



Yeah, Kishi simply said that Hiruzen knows  every techniques of Konoha. But didnt said, that he can *use* every techniques. I tell about this in above post(he cant use Clan's techniques, suiton/fuuton/raiton techniques. Cant use techiniques of other strong characters(Toad tech, S/T, medicine nin, snake's tech and other)). So logilacally we have that Hiruzen can use his own tech and tech on Doton+Katon.
I seriosly doubt that Hiruzen might to have smth that makes him>>>>Hashirama+Bijuus in 30 years, but which cant use in 50. I remind, that he did nothing against one Fox, even with all of village shinobi. In sannins years. And with stamina 3(its like Orochimaru's and above than Itachi's) he use shadow surikens instead of smth great and powerfull. Or you really think that all best techniques of Hiruzen need a stamina 3+? All fight he begin with only staff. He combined taijutsu with elemental ninjutsu. Nothing more. He didnt have any KG, any dojutsus - main cheats in Narutoverse. 
Gai in 7 gates even didnt kill a Kisame which was, said honestly, weak S-rank(without Samehada). On 8 gates he wont jump above the head. Not on the level of "God of shinobi" or even top-tier i mean.

Okay i understood you.


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## Hasan (Sep 9, 2011)

Harbour said:


> Yeah, Kishi simply said that Hiruzen knows  every techniques of Konoha. But didnt said, that he can *use* every techniques. I tell about this in above post(he cant use Clan's techniques, suiton/fuuton/raiton techniques. Cant use techiniques of other strong characters(Toad tech, S/T, medicine nin, snake's tech and other)). So logilacally we have that Hiruzen can use his own tech and tech on Doton+Katon.
> I seriosly doubt that Hiruzen might to have smth that makes him>>>>Hashirama+Bijuus in 30 years, but which cant use in 50. I remind, that he did nothing against one Fox, even with all of village shinobi. In sannins years. And with stamina 3(its like Orochimaru's and above than Itachi's) he use shadow surikens instead of smth great and powerfull. Or you really think that all best techniques of Hiruzen need a stamina 3+? All fight he begin with only staff. He combined taijutsu with elemental ninjutsu. Nothing more. He didnt have any KG, any dojutsus - main cheats in Narutoverse.
> Gai in 7 gates even didnt kill a Kisame which was, said honestly, weak S-rank(without Samehada). On 8 gates he wont jump above the head. Not on the level of "God of shinobi" or even top-tier i mean.
> 
> Okay i understood you.



Kakashi said most elite ninjas are proficient with two elements. Kakashi himself uses 3 but given what Sarutobi was capable of, it shouldn't be a surprise if he can use up to 4 or 5 or even all six elements.

He is said to have known all the jutsus that existed in Konoha. He should be able to utilize them in battle but showing only few doesn't mean he can't use them at all. I don't see a reason why not. Kakashi has displayed about 25 of his 1000 jutsu arsenal. Does it mean he can't use the other 975?

It's Kyuubi we're talking about, the strongest of the 9 beast. I only pointed out that Minato thought Hiruzen was capable of dealing with the fox. He had help which doesn't matter. Hiruzen did push the fox out of the village.

The stamina point '3' only implies that it's average. Itachi having a stamina '3' and Sarutobi having the stamina '3' are two different things. Itachi is a young man and Hiruzen is 69 years old man. The two ANBU standing outside noted that Hiruzen's stamina *greatly* declined due to old age. 

To use stronger techniques, you have to make it sure that it hits the target and in Hiruzen's case it was extremely necessary and failure wasn't an option.
Nothing suggests he couldn't perform any high level technique.

Edos are said to be equal to their living counterparts and stronger in some cases, as in Itachi. Given Hashirama's hype in part 2, everyone seems to have a notion that Edos were weaker when they fought Hiruzen but nobody seems to think that:

*1.* Hiruzen, even in his old age was a beast.
*2.* They used few techniques. Hiruzen didn't let them use more.

Hiruzen was very impressive even though he was the one at disadvantage and wasn't in a very good shape. Even Enma said it was *pathetic* compared to his prime. But impressive nonetheless.

7 Gated Gai beat the hell out of Kisame. 8 Gates is an overkill.

Kishimoto is always careful about his words regarding Kages. In this chapter, he said "The strongest past _Raikage_". He didn't say Kage. Sandaime Raikage is impressive. We need a* Hiruzen Gaiden*.

You're new here, I suggest you go through threads about Hiruzen. There are tons of such threads.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 9, 2011)

Turrin said:


> There are flashy Jutsu in Part I, so why didn't Kishi give Hiruzen a flashy Jutsu? Power scaling is not an excuse when there were Ninja in Part I who had Jutsu flashy and strong enough that they are still some of the strongest Jutsu in Part II
> 
> The coffin stopped because Minato wasn't a viable Tensei, who knows if Hiruzen's Jutsu would have stopped it if it were.
> 
> ...



To be technical, Hiruzen did get a flashy jutsu- Reaper Death Seal. That was his trump card. And that's really what flashy jutsus used to be, trump cards that you'd use if more conventional options failed, particularly since the trump cards used to have drawbacks. The more powerful they were, the more of a drawback there was. Now jutsus seem to be getting more and more powerful without any drawbacks which is part of the pt.2 powerscaling. Chakra even goes farther than it used to, using the Sharingan used to really take a toll on Kakashi's chakra and he used to only have enough chakra to use Raikiri a few times a day in pt.1, now the Sharingan doesn't bother him at all and he spams Raikiri along with other jutsus like Kamui and Lightning Shadow Clone. And Kakashi's chakra stat hasn't changed between pt.1 and pt.2, which is the same as Old Hiruzen's.  

That was a farcical retcon. Orochimaru had to summon Minato before the battle and stored him in that coffin, so he should had already known it didn't work. 

Kishimoto knew that he was going to make the Kages Kage-level, and they are. That's all I need to know. But I do think the hype was for Hiruzen Prime. 



Harbour said:


> Yeah, Kishi simply said that Hiruzen knows  every techniques of Konoha. But didnt said, that he can *use* every techniques. I tell about this in above post(he cant use Clan's techniques, suiton/fuuton/raiton techniques. Cant use techiniques of other strong characters(Toad tech, S/T, medicine nin, snake's tech and other)). So logilacally we have that Hiruzen can use his own tech and tech on Doton+Katon.
> I seriosly doubt that Hiruzen might to have smth that makes him>>>>Hashirama+Bijuus in 30 years, but which cant use in 50. I remind, that he did nothing against one Fox, even with all of village shinobi. In sannins years. And with stamina 3(its like Orochimaru's and above than Itachi's) he use shadow surikens instead of smth great and powerfull. Or you really think that all best techniques of Hiruzen need a stamina 3+? All fight he begin with only staff. He combined taijutsu with elemental ninjutsu. Nothing more. He didnt have any KG, any dojutsus - main cheats in Narutoverse.
> Gai in 7 gates even didnt kill a Kisame which was, said honestly, weak S-rank(without Samehada). On 8 gates he wont jump above the head. Not on the level of "God of shinobi" or even top-tier i mean.
> 
> Okay i understood you.



Hiruzen still knows a thousand jutsus, so it's not much of a matter of where he learned them from. And I wouldn't be surprised if Hiruzen could use numerous elements, Kakashi can use 3 and he's only 30, Hiruzen was such a genius that he learned a thousand jutsus without a Sharingan and was 40 years older than Kakashi. 

We don't know what he did to the Kyuubi, but the Kyuubi also didn't apparently do anything to him either. It was all off-panel. Besides, it was the full-powered Kyuubi, the most powerful and terrifying of all the Bijuu. 

His chakra was below Orochimaru's and above Itachi's. Fights used to start with smaller jutsus like Shuriken Shadow Clone to poke at the opponent and test them, bigger jutsus used to not be used until the smaller jutsus had failed and were used as trumps. But lately Kisihmoto is having characters spam powerful jutsus. Like I said to Turrin, chakra even goes farther than it used to, using the Sharingan used to  really take a toll on Kakashi's chakra and he used to only have enough  chakra to use Raikiri a few times a day in pt.1, now the Sharingan  doesn't bother him at all and he spams Raikiri along with other jutsus  like Kamui and Lightning Shadow Clone. And Kakashi's chakra stat hasn't changed between pt.1 and pt.2, which is the same as Old Hiruzen's. 

Kisame couldn't do jack against 6-Gated Gai or 7-Gated Gai, Samehada changes nothing. Gai used 6-Gates and split the sea apart and moved his fists so fast that he pummeled Kisame into submission. Then when he used 7-Gates, Gai punched so hard that the force from it destroyed Kisame's Giant Shark Missile and k.o.'d Kisame. It's scary that you need 8-Gates to be in Hiruzen Prime's league.


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## Skaddix (Sep 9, 2011)

No he cannot use all elements point blank Kakashi said it was impossible so no. 

We have already said why he cannot use all before obviously no KKG and clearly he does not Know space time. 

All happened off panel and he had help. Hiruzen was literally begging for Minato to save his ass. 

So what Itachi also has a crippling disease. So I think that balances just fine. And Itachi was still way more impressive feats using limited Stamina. 

Okay.

Because those Edos were mindless and did not do much. Orochimaru was pretty much just having fun. 

He used a few B and C rank jutsus. His best moves were summon, shadow clone, and his finisher. What Enma says means nothing. 

Yes because Gai is the perfect Counter. The point being though Kisame did not take any crippling injuries.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 9, 2011)

Skaddix said:


> No he cannot use all elements point blank Kakashi said it was impossible so no.
> 
> All happened off panel and he had help. Hiruzen was literally begging for Minato to save his ass.
> 
> ...



It's impossible to have an affinity for all 5 elements. Look at Kakashi, he can use Suiton and Doton, but his affinity is Raiton. Hiruzen was also 40 years older and was such a genius that he learned a thousand jutsus without the Sharingan. 

Two things to remember:
1. It was the full-powered Kyuubi, the most powerful and terrifying Bijuu and the power Naruto is using now it only half of it's power. 
2. Even Minato needed help and to kill himself to beat the Kyuubi. 

An alleged disease that Sasuke seemed to have gotten after getting the MS too. And Kimimaro was minutes away from death and his chakra was vastly greater. 

Ok, then what Madara said means nothing and Sasuke did beat Itachi. 

The point being that Kisame got his ass whooped. And so what if Kisame couldn't absorb Gai's chakra? He was still a powerhouse with impressive jutsus and still lost when Gai used the gates.

The manga says Hiruzen's the Chuck Norris of the Narutoverse.


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## Hasan (Sep 9, 2011)

Skaddix said:


> No he cannot use all elements point blank Kakashi said it was impossible so no.
> 
> We have already said why he cannot use all before obviously no KKG and clearly he does not Know space time.
> 
> ...



Kakashi himself can use three elements. Hiruzen was genius and given his status, it shouldn't be a surprise that he was capable of using 4 or 5 or even 6 elements.

He didn't have any KG but could still counter MS and EMS. Tobirama was a S/T user, so who knows. I'm not saying he definitely knows it but he probably had a counter for it (even Hiraishin).

It doesn't matter if he had help against the fox. Minato believed that Hiruzen was capable of dealing with Kyuubi on rampage.

You can't really compare Itachi's feats with Hiruzen's. Itachi was a young man and Hiruzen was an old man and pretty much retired. A young man definitely has more stamina than an old man.

Come on, you're arguing this.  Hiruzen's chakra was limited and he needed to end the fight quickly.

No one is arguing that Gai was a perfect counter to Kisame. We're just talking about what Gai said that 8 gates temporarily grant powers rivalling Hiruzen's.


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 9, 2011)

Hasan said:


> He didn't have any KG but could still counter MS and EMS.



that's a fake
but i still think prime hiruzen was a beast
i mean madara did shit during his first reign


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 9, 2011)

Udontard4ever said:


> that's a fake
> but i still think prime hiruzen was a beast
> i mean madara did shit during his first reign



It's true, Hiruzen can counter MS and EMS.


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 9, 2011)

and where did you read that?


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 9, 2011)

Udontard4ever said:


> and where did you read that?



The last Fanbook, was from around the Pein invasion.


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 9, 2011)

Yeah I've also read about that in some forums, but it seems those infos are fake
would be cool if someone who has actually read the fanbook and is fluent in japanese could confirm


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## Senjuclan (Sep 9, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> The last Fanbook, was from around the Pein invasion.



The last fanbook did not once mention Hiruzen. This is misinformation bro. Unless it came from the first fanbook but even then I have never heard Shounensuki, who is pretty active on naruto wiki forums mention it. I think it is safe to say that Hiruzen having a counter to EMS is fanfiction


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## Turrin (Sep 9, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> To be technical, Hiruzen did get a flashy jutsu- Reaper Death Seal. That was his trump card.
> .



Like I said Shikka Fuujin is the only Jutsu Hiruzen has that could put him in the same ball park as the other Kage, but it's a suicide technique like gates. Gai with  8th gate is suppose to be above the "level" of Kages, but is it fair to say that he's above the kages simply because he can briefly reach that level due to a suicide technique?



> And that's really what flashy jutsus used to be, trump cards that you'd use if more conventional options failed, particularly since the trump cards used to have drawbacks. The more powerful they were, the more of a drawback there was. Now jutsus seem to be getting more and more powerful without any drawbacks which is part of the pt.2 powerscaling.


I disagree, not all Triumph cards in Part I had drawbacks and not all Triumph Cards in Part II don't have draw backs. In Part I Edo Tensei and Mangekyo techniques had no draw backs other than chakra consumption, and it's only in Part II that these techniques are actually being given serious drawbacks.



> hakra even goes farther than it used to, using the Sharingan used to really take a toll on Kakashi's chakra and he used to only have enough chakra to use Raikiri a few times a day in pt.1, now the Sharingan doesn't bother him at all and he spams Raikiri along with other jutsus like Kamui and Lightning Shadow Clone. And Kakashi's chakra stat hasn't changed between pt.1 and pt.2, which is the same as Old Hiruzen's.


Kakashi increased his mastery over the Sharingan significantly during the time-skip, this was explained in Part II and the reason for his greater feats of stamina in Part II.



> hat was a farcical retcon. Orochimaru had to summon Minato before the battle and stored him in that coffin, so he should had already known it didn't work.


Who says that Orochimaru has to summon Minato before the battle? He could have performed the ritual before the battle, but just never tried the summoning. 



> Kishimoto knew that he was going to make the Kages Kage-level, and they are. That's all I need to know. But I do think the hype was for Hiruzen Prime.


From takL



takL said:


> hiruzen _was reputed_ to be the best ever hokage _then_.
> it's what people said.
> maybe some thought otherwize.
> maybe that has changed since then.



This basically applies to both comments, Hiruzen being reputed to be the strongest Hokage or the strongest Kage when old just means that some people thought this its not a definitive statement on Kishi's part.

Personally I don't believe Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage, since it conflicts with statements made about Minato and Hashirama also has better feats. I just think many people believed him to be because he was as DB III states very popular during his first reign as Hokage.

As for Old Hiruzen being the strongest Kage, I also don't think so since he's been vastly outperformed by all of the Kages he's suppose to be stronger than at this point.

Also lets face it reputation in this manga has been indicated to be a hyperbolic. The entire Uchiha Clan were stated to pail in comparison to Jiriaya's title of legendary sannin according to reputation, but in reality Itachi alone defeated Orochimaru who holds the title of legendary sannin and could probably draw with Jiriaya or perhaps even defeated him, albeit with injuries but still. 

Due to Hanzo's reputation Jiriaya thought it was impossible that someone could defeat him, yet Nagato defeated him and from what we saw of his Tensei self plenty of people could have defeated him. 

Reputation is not credible in this manga in any sense other than to tell the reader that X character is pretty powerful.


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## Harbour (Sep 9, 2011)

*Hasan*,
Hm, why i have a thoughts, that you try to troll me? Or just said, that you like Hiruzen and i will stop to debating.
Hiruzen show two elements and in the manga didnt said, that he has more. 
About "all jutsu" - "know" doesnt mean "can use". Its illogicaly for him can to use clans hijutsus, dojutsu, kkg tech and personal tech of some strong chatacters. He doesnt have a bugs, dogs, shadows, byakugan or sharingan, or snake body or toad contract, or s/t, or mokuton etc.  So this statement= hype lie, like a "Only Uchiha can beat Ichiha", "RK is one who can faced with biju" etc. 
Statement that he can counter for any leaf nin=probably lie, because its never been stated in such resources like mh, where is good translators or even here, on NF. Also this statement  conflict with reality. Sarutobi cant to held with ET(Konoha's tech), without DGod, Sarutobi cant to held with violet barrier(konoha's tech). 
3 in stamina allows Orochimaru use kawarimi, use good nin and use massive summons. 2.5 in stamina allows Itachi use Tsuki, few Ama, and Susano. Why Hiruzen cant use his rikudo-lvl tech immediately, before the ET? If he so Godly, why he cant to stomped Orochimaru by one tech? 
About Minato - he prefer to kill Madara and than immediately return to Konoha. If not him - 2 bijuudama - no Konoha, no Hiruzen. Look at emotions on the Hiruzen face, when he see Fox and bijuudama...
Hmmm, in the old he was not such a beast as 3RK or Onoki. 2 B and C rank tech, small summon-staff and Minato's tech=too weak for God.



UltimateDeadpool said:


> Hiruzen still knows a thousand jutsus, so it's not much of a matter of where he learned them from. And I wouldn't be surprised if Hiruzen could use numerous elements, Kakashi can use 3 and he's only 30, Hiruzen was such a genius that he learned a thousand jutsus without a Sharingan and was 40 years older than Kakashi.
> 
> We don't know what he did to the Kyuubi, but the Kyuubi also didn't apparently do anything to him either. It was all off-panel. Besides, it was the full-powered Kyuubi, the most powerful and terrifying of all the Bijuu.
> 
> ...


Proof on "many thousands" plz. He can use Leaf Tech minus (all of Clan's tech, KG tech, dojutsu tech, Fuu/Rai/Suiton tech, snake tech, toad tech, medical tech, s/t tech and other). And what we have in the end? "Cut-paper-without-scissors-no jutsu"? "Sennen Goroshi"? Or smth else god's tech"? 

Ofc, because Hiruzen very wisely send own people in the close range combat with Fox, instead of use smth God tech.

Yeah, the fact that with samehada Kisame can to regenerate fast is nothing.
And even with samehada kisame stay to be an average S-rank.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 9, 2011)

Kabuto stated Hiruzen was the strongest because he was Hokage. Being Hokage means your the strongest kage apparently for Kabuto.


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## lucky (Sep 9, 2011)

Recalcitrant Funkasaur said:


> I have the funniest feeling the Cloud village didn't exist when Kishimoto first began writing Sarutobi in part one.  Back then, before Kishi had invented the other villages, Sarutobi was the strongest in his prime because the Raikage didn't exist to compete with him.  Not that I'm belittling Sarutobi, of course...




you're right.  the powerscaling was much different 5 years ago.  but i also have the feeling that if he was to somehow bring sarutobi back, he would bust out moves never shown that would prove how he was the strongest kage back then.


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## AoshiKun (Sep 9, 2011)

Man we had power inflation, most likely Sarutobi would be more awesome than any of those Kages nowadays.


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## BXisAWOL (Sep 9, 2011)

Just wait until Hiruzen gets a good flashback that shows his feats.  Then all you non-believers will understand his greatness.


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## Skaddix (Sep 9, 2011)

He is not getting a flashback, he is not relevant. Danzo was our best shot, maybe we get one From Tsuande. After that really no one to give us a flashback.


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## Raiden (Sep 9, 2011)

I know I made a post in this thread. I guess it was hard deleted....

Personally, it's not an issue. Unlikely Kishimoto thought the manga through to now. It's meaningless hype.


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## Naru-Ichi (Sep 9, 2011)

I think people should just accept that he wasn't the strongest Kage/Hokage...


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## Skaddix (Sep 9, 2011)

President Goobang said:


> I know I made a post in this thread. I guess it was hard deleted....
> 
> Personally, it's not an issue. Unlikely Kishimoto thought the manga through to now. It's meaningless hype.



Pretty much the central point to believe this u have to believe Kishi planned the Manga way in advance.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 10, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> The last fanbook did not once mention Hiruzen. This is misinformation bro. Unless it came from the first fanbook but even then I have never heard Shounensuki, who is pretty active on naruto wiki forums mention it. I think it is safe to say that Hiruzen having a counter to EMS is fanfiction



animesuki

I don't know if there's anything on this site, but you can follow the link and check out it's validity.


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## jimbob631 (Sep 10, 2011)

Naru-Ichi said:


> I think people should just accept that he wasn't the strongest Kage/Hokage...



Or we can go with the manga statements and say he was the strongest.  Its everyone else whose in denial, its been stated in the manga and databook that he was the strongest hokage.


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## Harbour (Sep 10, 2011)

In databook also state that temperature of Ama burning - 15000 degrees. Sure? Karin's coat, RK arm, samurai armor said "Hello".


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## Naru-Ichi (Sep 10, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Or we can go with the manga statements and say he was the strongest.  Its everyone else whose in denial, its been stated in the manga and databook that he was the strongest hokage.



What's there to be in denial about? His feats in the Oro fight was shit compared to top-tiers now. I mean people can try the old age excuse, but we see the Tsuchikage still performing great at a comparable age.

And from what I read, there was some questioning on the translations of that as to whether they plainly stated he was strongest or that he was "considered"/"said to be" the strongest (there's a difference). The latter would make SO much sense given Minato feats and Hashirama's hype.


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## slickcat (Sep 10, 2011)

I dont think the kid that this manga is aimed for care about it as much as you guys do. Basically because we re much older than the targeted audience, we are able to spot these things in an instant, but they are easily dismiss-able. 

Power levels suck, In the end the main character is either un par with the final villain or stronger.Yet ppl waste time creating matches to suit themselves. AND NOW WE HAVE SOMEONE WHO CAN TANK FRS, even worse debunking all sarutobis moves against both hokages.

 Anyways to each their own


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## stevensr123 (Sep 10, 2011)

Naru-Ichi said:


> What's there to be in denial about? His feats in the Oro fight was shit compared to top-tiers now. I mean people can try the old age excuse, but we see the Tsuchikage still performing great at a comparable age.
> 
> And from what I read, there was some questioning on the translations of that as to whether they plainly stated he was strongest or that he was "considered"/"said to be" the strongest (there's a difference). The latter would make SO much sense given Minato feats and Hashirama's hype.



Listen, stop it with the fanboy argument and all that bollocks. your clearly in denial and trying to worm your way out of the facts.

Simple fact is the another is specifically states multiple times that sarutobi was the strongest hokage and surpassed all those before him. those are the facts the author presented us with. yet your, a simple reader, clearly think otherwise and clearly think you know more than the author himself.


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 10, 2011)

Naru-Ichi said:


> What's there to be in denial about? His feats in the Oro fight was shit compared to top-tiers now. I mean people can try the old age excuse, but we see the Tsuchikage still performing great at a comparable age.



debatable, he just showed one haxxed ability he kept spamming

in a tai exchange even old sarutobi would own him


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## mareboro (Sep 10, 2011)

there is more than one way to skin a cat.... being able to tank a potent jutsu is not the same same as being able to defend against a sealing jutsu/ genjutsu, yada yada.

the clan of a 1000 jutsus was strong due to versatility rather than pure tanking ability


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## Ghost of Madara (Sep 10, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> animesuki
> 
> I don't know if there's anything on this site, but you can follow the link and check out it's validity.



Once again, desist from promoting this falsehood.  The Fanbook 2 says no such thing regarding Hiruzen, much less mention that he can counter MS or EMS techniques.

A forum named "saiyan island" is not a valid source, especially when you're debating against people who've seen the fanbook themselves.


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## stevensr123 (Sep 10, 2011)

Ghost of Madara said:


> Once again, desist from promoting this falsehood.  The Fanbook 2 says no such thing regarding Hiruzen, much less mention that he can counter MS or EMS techniques.
> 
> A forum named "saiyan island" is not a valid source, especially when you're debating against people who've seen the fanbook themselves.



Was it not said though, that he had a counter to all jutsu in the leaf? or are you just disputing the fact it wasn't in fan book 2?


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 10, 2011)

Turrin said:


> There are flashy Jutsu in Part I, so why didn't Kishi give Hiruzen a flashy Jutsu? Power scaling is not an excuse when there were Ninja in Part I who had Jutsu flashy and strong enough that they are still some of the strongest Jutsu in Part II



He got Shiki Fuin. Which was flashy enough. Other high level character such as Itachi also got a limited display of flashy stuff, like Susanoo
Even Minato didnt rely much on "flashy" stuff. His Hiraishin+Rasengan combo being utilized in a godly way was enough to cripple Madara back then




> Basically what happened was: Orochimaru toyed with Hiruzen which allowed him to activate a suicide technique which allowed him to defeat the significantly weaker ET Hokage at the cost of his life.
> 
> To me that diminishes his feat.
> 
> Hiruzen didn't pawn him he just managed to grab Orochimaru after a long struggle and its not like Orochimaru is a CQC beast anyway.



But Oro is always arrogant. He was even toying with KN4 and continuously taunting him even though he had an imperfect body
Even when facing Itachi for the second time he STILL got his arrogant mode on. So Oro toying with Hiruzen and being arrogant is his personality. Its not something that would discredit Hiruzens defeat



> Orochimaru is always arrogant, but in that battle he was toying with his opponent like none other. Oro was basically sitting back and eating popcorn while ordering the Hokage to toy with Hiruzen for his own amusement



Yess, and I've always wondered about this. And Kabuto confirmed this. Oro was basically controlling the other 2 Kages. Sure he could join the fight, but he would not be able to go 100%
Like Kabuto is doing now with Sandaime Raikage, fully controlling him and _focusing his attention_ on Sandaime (while also trying to summon another). Since Oro's ET was even less perfect then Kabuto's he was probably doing the same
Not saying Oro is place-bound and can only focus on ET, but some of his attention has to go the the ET summoning, which means hen can't go 100%



> The coffin stopped because Minato wasn't a viable Tensei, who knows if Hiruzen's Jutsu would have stopped it if it were.



No, Hiruzen could. When Hiruzen saw the coffins being summoned he performed seals the stop the 3rd coffin. He *recognised* the jutsu and reacted accordingly. He even made a comment about it. It also falls in line that Hiruzen can counter/knows every jutsus in Konoha since ET was Nidaime's jutsu. His own sensei.
It doesn't matter if Yondaime couldn't be summoned, Hiurzen would have stopped it anyway 



> Onoki only need to touch Hiruzen to turn him to stone or one hit with Jinton, do you really think Hiruzen can prevent this with his 3 in speed



Defnesive ninjutsu, genjutsu, Enma



> Shouldn't we be discussing Yondaime Kazekage? Anyway Hiruzen has no way to survive Gold Dust Avalanche and I don't see him being able to avoid even Yondaime Kazekage's lesser Gold Dust attacks considering they move as fast as Garaa's gourd sand and he's got a 3 in speed. Also how is he going to even get past the Gold Dust to damage Yondaime Kazekage?



Like I said before, with defensive Doton. He already used it to defend himself against Nidaime's Suiton. Could do the same to Sand Avalanche
Also Yondaime Kazekage does not have the auto-defense that Gaara has.
Seriously, Yondaime Kazekage was a filler Kage and a stepping stone for Gaara. 



> Hiruzen can't damage A and he can't land an attack on A. If A uses his speed Hiruzen gets easily blitz. Hiruzen stands zero chance against A.



At one point (prime) Hiruzen was the Hokage, and he was > other Kages. Kabuto statement from part I after Oro got soul ripped. This would not apply to Old Hiruzen, so it has to be about Prime Hiruzen
And Prime Hiruzen was also a Kage when A or Sandaime Raikage was in charger. And he was still considered the most powerful Kage. So even if did not show it, Prime Hiruzen had the counter to Sandaime Raikage or A



> _Kisame: "It was great finally finding him at the Ramen Shop, But... his babysitter is one of the three great shinobi of Konoha legend"
> 
> Kisame: "With him as our enemy, even the titles Konoha's Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison."_
> 
> ...



Kisame did not even mention Itachi crippling Orochimaru. 


Also Turrin, you had some translation from TakL about Hiruzens position as the strongest Hokage. Where was that from? Was it from Iruka's statement about Hiruzen as the most powerful Hokage?
Cuz I do believe prime Hiurzen was a beast, but I can't see him > Shodai or Yondaime either



UltimateDeadpool said:


> animesuki
> 
> I don't know if there's anything on this site, but you can follow the link and check out it's validity.





Ghost of Madara said:


> Once again, desist from promoting this falsehood.  The Fanbook 2 says no such thing regarding Hiruzen, much less mention that he can counter MS or EMS techniques.
> 
> A forum named "saiyan island" is not a valid source, especially when you're debating against people who've seen the fanbook themselves.



I'm with DP on this on. The Fanbook got translated and every other thing that was in there was true. So why wouldn't the statement about Hiruzen not be true?

We need a translator for this


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## stevensr123 (Sep 10, 2011)

Oh and turrin 
"The coffin stopped because Minato wasn't a viable Tensei, who knows if Hiruzen's Jutsu would have stopped it if it were."

This does not make sense, we already saw the method on which you have to perform the ritual of edo tensei, Orochimaru would have known prior to the fight that the third coffin would not work, considering he had to perform and prep the edo before the fight.

The only logical explanation is hiruzen stopped the jutsu.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 10, 2011)

stevensr123 said:


> Oh and turrin
> "The coffin stopped because Minato wasn't a viable Tensei, who knows if Hiruzen's Jutsu would have stopped it if it were."
> 
> This does not make sense, we already saw the method on which you have to perform the ritual of edo tensei, Orochimaru would have known prior to the fight that the third coffin would not work, considering he had to perform and prep the edo before the fight.
> ...



Not really. Kabuto already confirmed ET can't summon those in the Death God, and that was the reason why Yondaime wasn't summoned

But either way Sarutobi would have stopped the coffin. He recognized the jutsus and already made the seals for it


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## stevensr123 (Sep 10, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> Not really. Kabuto already confirmed ET can't summon those in the Death God, and that was the reason why Yondaime wasn't summoned
> 
> But either way Sarutobi would have stopped the coffin. He recognized the jutsus and already made the seals for it



Then kishi fails at writing, I mean he SHOWED us the method in which you have to summon some via edo tensei.

He showed us the ritual, and since orochimaru would have had to do the same ritual, he would have known the ritual failed BEFORE the fight begun.

See what i am trying the say? Edo tensei is simply not Summoning a coffin, The coffin is just a simple vessel to keep the edo tensei in.

Orochimaru, just like kabuto, would have had to do the ritual, then place the edo in the coffin. If the ritual failed then he would not have tried to summon the coffin in battle.


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## *uzumaki-naruto* (Sep 10, 2011)

AoshiKun said:


> Man we had power inflation, most likely Sarutobi would be more awesome than any of those Kages nowadays.



Haha no way....plus everyone knows kishi has forogotten that old geezers arse.


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 10, 2011)

stevensr123 said:


> Then kishi fails at writing, I mean he SHOWED us the method in which you have to summon some via edo tensei.
> 
> He showed us the ritual, and since orochimaru would have had to do the same ritual, he would have known the ritual failed BEFORE the fight begun.
> 
> ...



maybe i'm reading too much into this, but what if oro knew he couldn't summon yondaime but decided anyway to try to "bluff" hiruzen in focusing on stopping the fourth empty coffing and therefore letting the 1st and the 2nd being summoned?
this would imply that oro knew that sarutobi could stop et


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## Ghost of Madara (Sep 10, 2011)

stevensr123 said:
			
		

> Was it not said though, that he had a counter to all jutsu in the leaf? or are you just disputing the fact it wasn't in fan book 2?



Nothing of the sort was ever stated anywhere, much less Fanbook 2.  The only statement that was made in reference to that was Orochimaru's statement during their battle that Hiruzen knew and could perform every jutsu coming from Konoha.



hitokugutsu said:


> I'm with DP on this on. The Fanbook got translated and every other thing that was in there was true. So why wouldn't the statement about Hiruzen not be true?



It's fake.  There is nothing in the fanbook which says anything about him "countering" anything, much less MS or EMS techniques.



> We need a translator for this



I am one.


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## Turrin (Sep 10, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> He got Shiki Fuin. Which was flashy enough. Other high level character such as Itachi also got a limited display of flashy stuff, like Susanoo


The difference is Shiki Fuujin is a suicide technique.



> Even Minato didnt rely much on "flashy" stuff. His Hiraishin+Rasengan combo being utilized in a godly way was enough to cripple Madara back then


Your the one complaining that Hiruzen suffered from power-scaling due to lack of flashy Jutsu in Part I, now your saying that a shinobi can beat Madara w/o them. So your arguing against your own point.



> But Oro is always arrogant. He was even toying with KN4 and continuously taunting him even though he had an imperfect body
> Even when facing Itachi for the second time he STILL got his arrogant mode on. So Oro toying with Hiruzen and being arrogant is his personality. Its not something that would discredit Hiruzens defeat


Orochimaru's arrogance has nothing to due with the fact that the ET Kages were significantly weakened, which does discredit Hiruzen's victory.



> Yess, and I've always wondered about this. And Kabuto confirmed this. Oro was basically controlling the other 2 Kages. Sure he could join the fight, but he would not be able to go 100%
> Like Kabuto is doing now with Sandaime Raikage, fully controlling him and focusing his attention on Sandaime (while also trying to summon another). Since Oro's ET was even less perfect then Kabuto's he was probably doing the same
> Not saying Oro is place-bound and can only focus on ET, but some of his attention has to go the the ET summoning, which means hen can't go 100%


It's not a matter of Orochimaru not going 100%, Orochimaru went 0%.



> No, Hiruzen could. When Hiruzen saw the coffins being summoned he performed seals the stop the 3rd coffin. He recognised the jutsu and reacted accordingly. He even made a comment about it. It also falls in line that Hiruzen can counter/knows every jutsus in Konoha since ET was Nidaime's jutsu. His own sensei.
> It doesn't matter if Yondaime couldn't be summoned, Hiurzen would have stopped it anyway


Dude a-lot of people think they can counter different Jutsu in this manga only for them to be proven wrong. So this isn't proof of anything.



> Defnesive ninjutsu, genjutsu, Enma


1. Hiruzen has shown no defensive Ninjutsu capable of blocking Dust Release
2. Hiruzen has shown no Genjutsu
3. Enma can't block Dust Release




> Like I said before, with defensive Doton. He already used it to defend himself against Nidaime's Suiton. Could do the same to Sand Avalanche


Nindaime's Suiton is not even comparable to Yondaime's Gold Dust Avalanche in size. Where is the proof that Hiruzen can create a Doton large enough to counter Gold Dust Avalanche? Also where is the proof that he can create this huge Doton consistently with his piss poor chakra supply?



> Also Yondaime Kazekage does not have the auto-defense that Gaara has.


No he doesn't but he was shown able to defend against something as fast as Gaara's gourd Sand with his Gold Dust, so how is Hiruzen going to get past that?



> At one point (prime) Hiruzen was the Hokage, and he was > other Kages. Kabuto statement from part I after Oro got soul ripped. This would not apply to Old Hiruzen, so it has to be about Prime Hiruzen


No Kabuto's comment refers to Old Hiruzen, ask translators if you want



> And Prime Hiruzen was also a Kage when A or Sandaime Raikage was in charger. And he was still considered the most powerful Kage. *So even if did not show it, Prime Hiruzen had the counter to Sandaime Raikage or A*


So like I said you hold double standard because in the case of Hiruzen even if he didn't show the Jutsu that makes him stronger than the Raikage, you believe he has one due to his reputation, yet when it comes to Jiriaya you believe his reputation is BS.



> Kisame did not even mention Itachi crippling Orochimaru.


I don't know what this means.



> Also Turrin, you had some translation from TakL about Hiruzens position as the strongest Hokage. Where was that from? Was it from Iruka's statement about Hiruzen as the most powerful Hokage?
> Cuz I do believe prime Hiurzen was a beast, but I can't see him > Shodai or Yondaime either


No I asked takl and a few other translators about Saikyo, Saikou, etc... and if Kishi contradicts himself with all the statements about strongest Hokage, considering that Hiruzen is called the strongest, but Kakashi and Raikage indicated that Minato was stronger. So what I posted was takl's reply, I.E. that Hiruzen is just reputed to be the strongest Hokage and that makes the statement not definitive.

Basically Hashirama and Tobirama are called the Saikou Shinobi, which means they are the best examples of Shinobi since they founded the village and crap. Hiruzen is reputed to be the strongest Hokage, but its not a definitive statement. Minato is supposed to be the ultimate Shinobi in skill with Jutsu, intelligence, etc.... and Minato is indicated to be stronger or equal to Shodai, Nindaime, and Hiruzen by Raikage's comment that he thought Minato would never be surpassed.


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## CA182 (Sep 10, 2011)

Turrin said:


> No I asked takl and a few other translators about Saikyo, Saikou, etc... and if Kishi contradicts himself with all the statements about strongest Hokage, considering that Hiruzen is called the strongest, but Kakashi and Raikage indicated that Minato was stronger. So what I posted was takl's reply, I.E. that Hiruzen is just reputed to be the strongest Hokage and that makes the statement not definitive.
> 
> Basically Hashirama and Tobirama are called the Saikou Shinobi, which means they are the best examples of Shinobi since they founded the village and crap. Hiruzen is reputed to be the strongest Hokage, but its not a definitive statement. Minato is supposed to be the ultimate Shinobi in skill with Jutsu, intelligence, etc.... and Minato is indicated to be stronger or equal to Shodai, Nindaime, and Hiruzen by Raikage's comment that he thought Minato would never be surpassed.



I think everyone's looking at this wrong (including me.) Hiruzen is regarded as the strongest ever hokage. The hokage is tasked with protecting the leaf village and it's citizens. Out of all the hokage the leaf village was best protected under him. It doesn't mean he's stronger than the other kage though, just that it's believed Konoha was best protected under him.

Example even in his old age, Konoha's citizens all survived the sound/sand attack, and managed to rebuild fairly quickly afterwards.

Hiruzen is the strongest ever hokage. It's never been said he was the strongest _shinobi_.

Before people counter saying that Minato saved the village from the kyuubi, Hiruzen successfully navigated Konoha through three shinobi world wars without Konoha being destroyed. That's a feat far surpassing any bijuu attack and something no other hokage can claim.


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## Turrin (Sep 10, 2011)

CA182 said:


> I think everyone's looking at this wrong (including me.) Hiruzen is regarded as the strongest ever hokage. The hokage is tasked with protecting the leaf village and it's citizens. Out of all the hokage the leaf village was best protected under him. It doesn't mean he's stronger than the other kage though, just that it's believed Konoha was best protected under him.
> 
> Example even in his old age, Konoha's citizens all survived the sound/sand attack, and managed to rebuild fairly quickly afterwards.
> 
> ...


I honestly just think some people believe he was the strongest back in the day, but he wasn't actually the de facto strongest.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 10, 2011)

This dude was never called the strongest kage or Hokage in the manga (unless you consider Iruka saying he was the *past* strongest Hokage).


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## Naru-Ichi (Sep 10, 2011)

stevensr123 said:


> Listen, stop it with the fanboy argument and all that bollocks. your clearly in denial and trying to worm your way out of the facts.
> 
> Simple fact is the another is specifically states multiple times that sarutobi was the strongest hokage and surpassed all those before him. those are the facts the author presented us with. yet your, a simple reader, clearly think otherwise and clearly think you know more than the author himself.



There was no "fanboy argument" in that post, so please miss me with that. If you're not going to actually address what I posted then your quote wasn't truly needed.

As for what the author stated, he's pretty much retconned that whole thing though. Minato's hype alone (being called unsurpassable multiple times) beats out being called strongest Hokage. I mean it isn't necessary for Kishi to come out and say that Hiruzen wasn't the strongest Hokage or that Minato (or Hashirama) was the strongest. The way he presented them to us is proof enough.



Udontard4ever said:


> debatable, he just showed one haxxed ability he kept spamming
> 
> in a tai exchange even old sarutobi would own him



None of that changes the fact that he's wayyyy more impressive than Sarutobi though.


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## jimbob631 (Sep 10, 2011)

Naru-Ichi said:


> What's there to be in denial about? His feats in the Oro fight was shit compared to top-tiers now. I mean people can try the old age excuse, but we see the Tsuchikage still performing great at a comparable age.
> 
> And from what I read, there was some questioning on the translations of that as to whether they plainly stated he was strongest or that he was "considered"/"said to be" the strongest (there's a difference). The latter would make SO much sense given Minato feats and Hashirama's hype.



Of course they were shit he's a 70 year old man for crying out loud, and they were stated to be miserable compared to his prime.  He was also fighting three kage level opponents at once if you don't remember.  Tsuchikage hasn't done anything that puts him above Hiruzen, Muu was kicking his ass, Hituzen went and fought three guys who are very likely stronger than Muu, Hashirama at least is.  

There is no questioning Iruka's statement and the databook statements, those are very clear translations as far as I know, its the Kabuto one thats sorta murky.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 10, 2011)

If you seriously think Shodai and Nidaime were actually like the originals..then


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 10, 2011)

Naru-Ichi said:


> None of that changes the fact that he's wayyyy more impressive than Sarutobi though.



still debatable and subjective

in one corner i see an old man with an haxxed KG that needed the help of two high level shinobis to defeat his master

in the other i see an old man that pretty much owned his two masters alone with only his senses, some kunais and explosive tags

you tell me which one is more impressive


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## Udontard4ever (Sep 10, 2011)

pretty much ninjaed, but still


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## jimbob631 (Sep 10, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> If you seriously think Shodai and Nidaime were actually like the originals..then



Of course they were.  The only differences are Hashirama in his prime wielded bijuu, and Tobirama in his prime had edo tensei himself and possibly some sort of space time item like Minato.  It doesn't change the fact that Hiruzen took both on along with Oro.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 10, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Of course they were.  The only differences are Hashirama in his prime wielded bijuu, and Tobirama in his prime had edo tensei himself and possibly some sort of space time item like Minato.  It doesn't change the fact that Hiruzen took both on along with Oro.



That is like saying that Kakashi schooled shouten Itachi and therefore is stronger than him. Having not one but several bijuu under perfect control is HUGE!!! It makes the difference between being strong and being godly. Look at Naruto and how much stronger  he has become with incomplete control over one bijuu. As for nidaime hokage, edo tensei does make a HUGE difference because you don't have to put yourself in danger. Furthermore, space-time ninjutsu can even beat high-tier ninjas one on one. Now, to be fair, Hiruzen was limited as well but I have a hard time thinking that he was that much more stronger based on his poor showing against the kyuubi


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 10, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Of course they were.  The only differences are Hashirama in his prime wielded bijuu, and Tobirama in his prime had edo tensei himself and possibly some sort of space time item like Minato.  It doesn't change the fact that Hiruzen took both on along with Oro.



So Hiruzen should be stronger than EMS Madara, Orochimaru, and Tobirama


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## MizMan (Sep 10, 2011)

Umm.. Wasn't it 'the strongest 'hokage' ever'?


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 10, 2011)

Turrin said:


> The difference is Shiki Fuujin is a suicide technique.
> 
> Your the one complaining that Hiruzen suffered from power-scaling due to lack of flashy Jutsu in Part I, now your saying that a shinobi can beat Madara w/o them. So your arguing against your own point.



I'm saying that if Hiurzen would get a part II battle he would get something that would be "flashy" but not his trump card per se. Like Oonoki has Jinton, or Sandaime Raikge Black Lightning. These things are there to build hype, not some OHKO jutsus that makes them top tier



> Orochimaru's arrogance has nothing to due with the fact that the ET Kages were significantly weakened, which does discredit Hiruzen's victory



How were those ET performing differently then the current ET's who are fully under Kabuto's control. Shodai & Nidaime were doing fine and continuously pressuring Hiruzen. The old geezer had no chance and basically on the defense the whole time until he realized he had to pull out Shiki Fuin

I know they were definitely not the Shodai or Nidaime if they were alive, but you're acting like Hiruzen was fighting a 10% Shouten Clone or something



> It's not a matter of Orochimaru not going 100%, Orochimaru went 0%.



Not really. Oro went out of his way to summon his Kusanagi sword and aim for the cheap shots when Hiruzen was distracted. However when Hiruzen used KB and let the clones handle the ET he 2 paneled Orochimaru in CQC, even when the latter had Kusanagi. 



> Dude a-lot of people think they can counter different Jutsu in this manga only for them to be proven wrong. So this isn't proof of anything.



Oro summons casket from the ground. Hiruzen recognizes it and comments on it, but 2 are already out. He starts forming seals before the 3rd one comes out. Not to mention this is a jutsu Hiruzen know, his sensei Tobirama had it. I seriously doubt Hiruzen would be casting seals for the lulz.
Also first or second DB actually describes this jutsu iir. 



> 1. Hiruzen has shown no defensive Ninjutsu capable of blocking Dust Release
> 2. Hiruzen has shown no Genjutsu
> 3. Enma can't block Dust Release



Hiruzen has 5/5 for genjutsu and countered Hashirama's genjutsu. He knows it and quite skilled at it. 
And nothing sofar can block Jinton. Doesn't mean he can't dodge it or put out a Doton wall in front of him, so the Jinton will get rid of that instead of him



> Nindaime's Suiton is not even comparable to Yondaime's Gold Dust Avalanche in size. Where is the proof that Hiruzen can create a Doton large enough to counter Gold Dust Avalanche? Also where is the proof that he can create this huge Doton consistently with his piss poor chakra supply?



He had 3/5 for stamina. Thats even better then Itachi, and Kakashi level. He won't be spamming high chakra level jutsu (like Kakashi does Kamui, Raikiri etc), but I'm pretty sure a Kage level character should be able to get along for a while
Also his stamina only came into play when he used Kage Bunshin. He was doing decent before that



> No he doesn't but he was shown able to defend against something as fast as Gaara's gourd Sand with his Gold Dust, so how is Hiruzen going to get past that?



Its not that Hiruzen has only way of defeating Yondaime Kazekage. His 5/5 intelligence and 5/5 genjutsu should be some help against some filler Kage. Who according to Kabuto wasn't even on Old Hiruzens level



> No Kabuto's comment refers to Old Hiruzen, ask translators if you want



So Old Hiruzen > Onooki, A, Yagura and Yondaime Kazekage.....



> So like I said you hold double standard because in the case of Hiruzen even if he didn't show the Jutsu that makes him stronger than the Raikage, you believe he has one due to his reputation, yet when it comes to Jiriaya you believe his reputation is BS.



Trust me, I can make up a shitload battledome scenarios were Jiraya > Itachi. And I would have gladly believed so IF Itachi didn't cripple Orochimaru at fucking age 11 with regular genjutsus and a kunai
And I don't care if Jiraya > Orochimaru (cuz he probably is), but the gap between them has never been displayed as big as the gap between Itachi & Orochimaru



> No I asked takl and a few other translators about Saikyo, Saikou, etc... and if Kishi contradicts himself with all the statements about strongest Hokage, considering that Hiruzen is called the strongest, but Kakashi and Raikage indicated that Minato was stronger. So what I posted was takl's reply, I.E. that Hiruzen is just reputed to be the strongest Hokage and that makes the statement not definitive.
> 
> Basically Hashirama and Tobirama are called the Saikou Shinobi, which means they are the best examples of Shinobi since they founded the village and crap. Hiruzen is reputed to be the strongest Hokage, but its not a definitive statement. Minato is supposed to be the ultimate Shinobi in skill with Jutsu, intelligence, etc.... and Minato is indicated to be stronger or equal to Shodai, Nindaime, and Hiruzen by Raikage's comment that he thought Minato would never be surpassed.



Thanks, this is actually quite helpful. Do you also happen to know if translators revisited that Iruka statement from part I? Was that more Iruka's opinion or rather the general consensus regarding Hiruzen?


----------



## Naru-Ichi (Sep 10, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Of course they were shit he's a 70 year old man for crying out loud, and they were stated to be miserable compared to his prime.  *He was also fighting three kage level opponents at once if you don't remember.*



This is so laughable. Orochimaru was just an on-looker most of the fight. And Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama were toying with him the whole time.

I mean he had to use a suicide jutsu to even win....which in itself is kind of sad considering how the Edo's are being dealt with in a better manner than that...and seeing as he was this so called "Professor", he should have had something better suited for that situation...especially since he should have known about the technique...

Seriously, he was shit. Now I do agree that "Prime" Sarutobi would have done MUCH better since he would be faster, stronger, etc. but the fact that we see other people at a comparable age doing better things suggest that he wasn't this "all-powerful" kage that he was made out to be in Part 1.

Like Shikaku said, "Legends from the distant past are always exaggerated..."



> Tsuchikage hasn't done anything that puts him above Hiruzen, Muu was kicking his ass, Hituzen went and fought three guys who are very likely stronger than Muu, Hashirama at least is.



Are you serious? 

Nothing Hiruzen has shown could compete with Onoki at this point.

And as far as I can tell, Edo Muu >>>>>> Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama.



> There is no questioning Iruka's statement and the databook statements, those are very clear translations as far as I know, its the Kabuto one thats sorta murky.



Admittedly, I don't remember much of the databook's statement; however, Iruka's statement fits in with what I said earlier



Udontard4ever said:


> still debatable and subjective
> 
> in one corner i see an old man with an haxxed KG that needed the help of two high level shinobis to defeat his master
> 
> ...



I really love how people try to word things in a way to fit their point.

Anyway, Onoki's feats are more impressive. Sarutobi was getting his ass handed to him by two shinobi that were just "toying" with him (hell, Tobirama didn't even use his S/T jutsu). Onoki on the other hand was putting up a fight with a more dangerous opponent.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Sep 10, 2011)

Naru-Ichi said:


> *I really love how people try to word things in a way to fit their point.*
> 
> Anyway, Onoki's feats are more impressive. *Sarutobi was getting his ass handed to him* by two shinobi that were just "toying" with him (hell, Tobirama didn't even use his S/T jutsu). Onoki on the other hand was putting up a fight with a more dangerous opponent.



wp sir

obviously edo muu = dangerous opponent
edo tobirama+shodai = shit


and about the whole "he had to die to seal'em, he could have found a better way" argument, come on, it's called plot
hiruzen had to die for a million reasons and it's cool this way.


----------



## jimbob631 (Sep 10, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> That is like saying that Kakashi schooled shouten Itachi and therefore is stronger than him. Having not one but several bijuu under perfect control is HUGE!!! It makes the difference between being strong and being godly. Look at Naruto and how much stronger  he has become with incomplete control over one bijuu. As for nidaime hokage, edo tensei does make a HUGE difference because you don't have to put yourself in danger. Furthermore, space-time ninjutsu can even beat high-tier ninjas one on one. Now, to be fair, Hiruzen was limited as well but I have a hard time thinking that he was that much more stronger based on his poor showing against the kyuubi



As you stated though, Hiruzen was severely limited as well, while fighting three kage level opponents.  I don't believe for a second that a hashirama with bijuu or tobirama with edo tensei/space time isn't leagues ahead of where they were in that fight.  I think the difference in strength between Hashirama and Hiruzen both in primes is miniscule.  




Elite Uchiha said:


> So Hiruzen should be stronger than EMS Madara, Orochimaru, and Tobirama



Individually I think Hiruzen is stronger than all of them.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> This is so laughable. Orochimaru was just an on-looker most of the fight. And Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama were toying with him the whole time.



Sure but we're talking about a 70 year old Hiruzen.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> I mean he had to use a suicide jutsu to even win....which in itself is kind of sad considering how the Edo's are being dealt with in a better manner than that...and seeing as he was this so called "Professor", he should have had something better suited for that situation...especially since he should have known about the technique...



Yeah again your talking about a 70 year old facing off against three kage level fighters.  




Naru-Ichi said:


> Seriously, he was shit. Now I do agree that "Prime" Sarutobi would have done MUCH better since he would be faster, stronger, etc. but the fact that we see other people at a comparable age doing better things suggest that he wasn't this "all-powerful" kage that he was made out to be in Part 1.



No, the closest we see to people doing things at a comparable age are the sannin as they fight in their 50's.  Lets take a look though at each one, Orochimaru uses younger bodies negating aging, Tsunade has the body of a 20 year old, and Jiraiya has a specific mode which increases his overall attributes.  Hiruzen doesn't have these kinds of things which is why age has affected him far more than these other characters at close ages.  



Senjuclan said:


> Like Shikaku said, "Legends from the distant past are always exaggerated..."



Sure, Minato is a legend of the past, he must be overrated too.  Madara also, Hashirama is overrated too.  The statement is meaningless.  





Senjuclan said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Nothing Hiruzen has shown could compete with Onoki at this point.
> 
> And as far as I can tell, Edo Muu >>>>>> Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama.



Give me an example, I've yet to see Onoki take anyone down yet.  He fought a kage with help from Gaara and Naruto, Hiruzen fought three kage level fighters by himself.  





Senjuclan said:


> Admittedly, I don't remember much of the databook's statement; however, Iruka's statement fits in with what I said earlier



Its funny though how Kishimoto has gone out of his way numerous times with statements from Iruka, databook statements, Kabuto's statement, to show that Hiruzen is the strongest hokage/kage.  Why do you think he's stated it so many times?  He must not know what he's talking about right?


----------



## Odlam (Sep 10, 2011)

Alot of it's just powerscaling guys.

If we were to see Orochimaru and a revived Shodai and Nidaime versus Old Sarutobi in the series now, it'd look ten times more epic than it did in part 1. Not because the characters are any stronger or weaker, but just because that's how these things go.



> Give me an example, I've yet to see Onoki take anyone down yet. He fought a kage with help from Gaara and Naruto, Hiruzen fought three kage level fighters by himself.



Taking power scaling into consideration, this is a fair point. Not quite fair because Oro was clearly playing around and having the kages do the same, but still valid.


----------



## HighLevelPlayer (Sep 10, 2011)

Recalcitrant Funkasaur said:


> I have the funniest feeling the Cloud village didn't exist when Kishimoto first began writing Sarutobi in part one.  Back then, before Kishi had invented the other villages, Sarutobi was the strongest in his prime because the Raikage didn't exist to compete with him.  Not that I'm belittling Sarutobi, of course...



The Cloud village was mentioned at some point during Part 1. When they were talking about Hinata's kidnapping at the hands of the Cloud village diplomat.



Trent said:


> I had the exact same thought.
> 
> The only thing I can think off is that that the other Kages are very *specialized *and are *uber outstanding in just a few fields* whereas Sarutobi, thanks to his Senju heritage and vast jutsu knowledge, was *extremely good in a vast array of jutsus and abilities*, which allowed to create greatly efficient counters against most types of enemies.
> 
> Or something.



What makes you think Hiruzen was a Senju?


----------



## Enclave (Sep 10, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> Yes, Sarutobi is more varied. But it still doesn't make him above 3rd Raikage. The guy tanked Rasenshuriken. Sarutobi's Katon and his other elemental won't do shit to him. This is also the guy who can dodge Rasenshuriken. Even in Sarutobi's legendary prime, I can't see him being able to fight with the Raikage.



If the Raikage there was alive rather than an Edo Zombie then the fight would have been over.  You can see that the Rasenshuriken cracked him and he had to regenerate and completely destroyed his raiton armour.  Odds are that he would have taken the same kind of damage as Kakuzu did, which is to say that he wouldn't have been disintegrated like Human Path was but rather his chakra pathways would have been severed.

To somebody alive that's pretty much fatal damage.  To an Edo Zombie?  It's fairly small amounts of damage that can be regenerated quickly.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 10, 2011)

MizMan said:


> Umm.. Wasn't it 'the strongest 'hokage' ever'?



The only person t even remotely say that was Iruka 

He said Sarutobi "was" the strongest. Then Sarutobi scolded him.


----------



## Enclave (Sep 10, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The only person t even remotely say that was Iruka
> 
> He said Sarutobi "was" the strongest. Then Sarutobi scolded him.



Heh, Sarutobi scolded him because he used past tense which was quite funny.  See, because he used past tense that could easily be interpreted as "strongest until Minato" which obviously one group of people spout and another claim it's strongest hokage of all.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 10, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Heh, Sarutobi scolded him because he used past tense which was quite funny.  See, because he used past tense that could easily be interpreted as "strongest until Minato" which obviously one group of people spout and another claim it's strongest hokage of all.



Yes, Minato is the strongest Hokage. However I would never go off what a chuunin says. I would rather go off what a Legendary Sannin or Kage from another village states. Both of those guys said this ninja was unsurpassable.


----------



## Ghost of Madara (Sep 10, 2011)

Enclave said:


> If the Raikage there was alive rather than an Edo Zombie then the fight would have been over.  You can see that the Rasenshuriken cracked him and he had to regenerate and completely destroyed his raiton armour.  Odds are that he would have taken the same kind of damage as Kakuzu did, which is to say that he wouldn't have been disintegrated like Human Path was but rather his chakra pathways would have been severed.
> 
> To somebody alive that's pretty much fatal damage.  To an Edo Zombie?  It's fairly small amounts of damage that can be regenerated quickly.



Incorrect.  They made special note to mention that Rasenshuriken did absolutely no damage.



Enclave said:


> Heh, Sarutobi scolded him because he used past tense which was quite funny.  See, because he used past tense that could easily be interpreted as "strongest until Minato" which obviously one group of people spout and another claim it's strongest hokage of all.



The implication of the past tense remark in Japanese was that Iruka was relating the Third's reputation as if he were a historical figure...as if he was already dead.  The issue was not about whether he was or still wasn't considered the strongest.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 11, 2011)

Stop with the bs. He said it because he "was" the strongest Hokage. That was when Minato was floating around in a nutsack.


----------



## Ghost of Madara (Sep 11, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Stop with the bs. He said it because he "was" the strongest Hokage. That was when Minato was floating around in a nutsack.



Incorrect.  Someone who cannot understand Japanese has no valuable input into this issue.

By the way, another matter you neglect to mention is that Raikage said that he "thought" Minato "was unsurpassable"  He no longer thinks that else he would have used the present tense, and yes any knowledgeable translator will agree with me on that.  Your "past tense" arguments applies to both Jiraiya's and Raikage's statements regarding Minato, an irony which I believe escapes your comprehension.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 11, 2011)

Ghost of Madara said:


> Incorrect.  Someone who cannot understand Japanese has no valuable input into this issue.
> 
> By the way, another matter you neglect to mention is that Raikage said that he "thought" Minato "was unsurpassable"  He no longer thinks that else he would have used the present tense, and yes any knowledgeable translator will agree with me on that.  Your "past tense" arguments applies to both Jiraiya's and Raikage's statements regarding Minato, an irony which I believe escapes your comprehension.



There is a reason it was translated to english. I trust translators over some random like you anyday. You understand Japense about as much as I do. So stop trying to act like you do.

The Raikage never said thought anywhere. So please refresh your memory before posting false claims. 

None of the statements below as in past tense:

"I believe that only you [naruto] can surpass the Fourth Hokage.
~ *Kakashi, The Legendary Copy Ninja of the Leaf*

"There was never a man that could surpass him [Fourth Hokage] "
~ *The Legendary Raikage, fastest man in the world*.

"That unrivalled strength [Minato], that carefree smile.."
~ *Masashi Kishimoto, Creator of Naruto*

Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind.
~*Jiraiya, the Legendary Sannin *


----------



## Untitled (Sep 11, 2011)

All I have to say about this, is.


----------



## Enclave (Sep 11, 2011)

Ghost of Madara said:


> Incorrect.  They made special note to mention that Rasenshuriken did absolutely no damage.



So we're supposed to ignore the cracked up skin that signified damage and the steam signifying regeneration?  Sorry, not going to happen.



> The implication of the past tense remark in Japanese was that Iruka was relating the Third's reputation as if he were a historical figure...as if he was already dead.  The issue was not about whether he was or still wasn't considered the strongest.



If that was the case then I suspect somebody who translates Japanese would have cleared it up by now.  This argument has been going on for YEARS and nobody has bothered clearing it up.


----------



## Uchiha Brother (Sep 11, 2011)

People constantly forget that Hiruzen supposedly knew "all of Konoha's jutsu" and had a lot more chakra in his prime, where using kage bunshin was actually a viable option for him. This makes him MUCH more versatile, and stronger. 

For example, Hiruzen makes two shadow clones, uses Yamanaka, Nara, and Akimichi techniques creating a de facto 'Ino-Shika-Cho' where each member is capable of using all three sets of jutsu, thats a powerful combo. 

Hiruzen casts genjutsu (the databook gives him a 5/5 in this category), uses bunshin to finish off opponent with elemental ninjutsu, rasengan, mind-body transefer etc.

Hiruzen casts bunshin, combines elemental attacks, wind feeding fire, water and wind, earth and fire etc. 

Hiruzen opens gates, uses taijutsu, Akimichi techniques, Enma staff etc for physical attacks

What supposedly makes Hiruzen so uber is NOT his own unique set of specific skills, as is typical of kages (ex. black lightening, jinton, mokuton, etc.) but rather his access to a huge variety of techniques, and the use of a few bunshins. Basically a few Hiruzen clones can impersonate most konoha ninja, but have the added benefit of knowing several skill sets, ex. a Hiruzen bunshin knows the Yamanaka skillset, but can also use Akimichi skills when the situation requires.


----------



## HighLevelPlayer (Sep 11, 2011)

Uchiha Brother said:


> People constantly forget that Hiruzen supposedly knew "all of Konoha's jutsu" and had a lot more chakra in his prime, where using kage bunshin was actually a viable option for him. This makes him MUCH more versatile, and stronger.
> 
> For example, Hiruzen makes two shadow clones, uses Yamanaka, Nara, and Akimichi techniques creating a de facto 'Ino-Shika-Cho' where each member is capable of using all three sets of jutsu, thats a powerful combo.
> 
> ...



He truly deserved the titles of "Professor" and "The God of Shinobi".



Elite Uchiha said:


> So Hiruzen should be stronger than EMS Madara, Orochimaru, and Tobirama



Orochimaru said that had Hiruzen been 10 years younger, Hiruzen would have killed him. So yes, prime Hiruzen>>>>>>>Orochimaru.


----------



## jimbob631 (Sep 11, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Yes, Minato is the strongest Hokage. However I would never go off what a chuunin says. I would rather go off what a Legendary Sannin or Kage from another village states. Both of those guys said this ninja was unsurpassable.



And do databook statements not mean anything?


----------



## Zerst?ren (Sep 11, 2011)

Kishi's pulling shit out of his ass, don't look too much into it.


----------



## Ghost of Madara (Sep 11, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:
			
		

> There is a reason it was translated to english. I trust translators over some random like you anyday. You understand Japense about as much as I do. So stop trying to act like you do.



If you were fluent in Japanese, then yes in that case you would understand as much as me.  That is not the case however.  It's not necessary for me to prove myself to the likes of you regardless, but my translations speak for themselves and those who understand Japanese understand that I know of what I speak.



> The Raikage never said thought anywhere. So please refresh your memory before posting false claims.



Incorrect.  But then again this is typical of those ignorant of what they speak and who are using inferior translations:



And every worthwhile translator would confirm that it was past tense.



> None of the statements below as in past tense:
> 
> "I believe that only you [naruto] can surpass the Fourth Hokage.
> ~ Kakashi, The Legendary Copy Ninja of the Leaf



This is the only one that's present/future tense.



> "There was never a man that could surpass him [Fourth Hokage] "
> ~ The Legendary Raikage, fastest man in the world.



Inferior translation.



> "That unrivalled strength [Minato], that carefree smile.."
> ~ Masashi Kishimoto, Creator of Naruto



A chapter side-cover text.  There was also one calling Neji an "unrivalled shinobi" as well.  



> Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind.
> ~Jiraiya, the Legendary Sannin



Was past tense.



Enclave said:


> So we're supposed to ignore the cracked up skin that signified damage and the steam signifying regeneration?  Sorry, not going to happen.



You can choose to believe whatever you want.  Your beliefs are irrelevant to what's stated directly in the manga which states that it caused no damage.



> If that was the case then I suspect somebody who translates Japanese would have cleared it up by now.  This argument has been going on for YEARS and nobody has bothered clearing it up.



The "argument" is a creation of this forum.  Much like your refusal to accept the manga statement and fact of Rasenshuriken not causing any damage to Raikage.

And I do translate Japanese.


----------



## Helios (Sep 11, 2011)

Kishimoto had this one chance to establish Hiruzen's superiority during the flashback with the nine tails.He did not.


----------



## Hasan (Sep 11, 2011)

Helios said:


> Kishimoto had this one chance to establish Hiruzen's superiority during the flashback with the nine tails.He did not.



It's was Minato's show anyway and driving the most powerful bijuu on rampage out of the village is nothing, you say?  Minato believed that Hiruzen was capable of dealing with Kyuubi. It speaks masses about Sarutobi. It doesn't matter that others came to help. The point is Minato thought that he was capable.


----------



## Santoryu (Sep 11, 2011)

Untitled said:


> All I have to say about this, is.



lol                                      .


----------



## goldendriger (Sep 11, 2011)

Well duh. Obviously Sarutobi is faster than the Raikage, unless you'd like to prove me wrong with actual feats and scans not just "How can he be?"

Sarutobi was the strongest of the 5 Kages in his prime, meaning he'd make Oonki bite the dust, he'd speed blitz the Raikage and he'd...*Insert water pun here* The Mizukage...OH! He'd CLAMp down on him =D


----------



## Ezekial (Sep 11, 2011)

Kishi Obviously had never created this guy when he said Saru was the strongest ever.


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 11, 2011)

Uchiha Brother said:


> People constantly forget that Hiruzen supposedly knew "all of Konoha's jutsu" and had a lot more chakra in his prime, where using kage bunshin was actually a viable option for him. This makes him MUCH more versatile, and stronger.
> 
> For example, Hiruzen makes two shadow clones, uses Yamanaka, Nara, and Akimichi techniques creating a de facto 'Ino-Shika-Cho' where each member is capable of using all three sets of jutsu, thats a powerful combo.



The only problem with that scenario is that the same Kishi said in the databook that those clan jutsu were exclusive to the members of the clan. Plus, he can't use Akimichi jutsu because he does not have the calories to use them. So, no those jutsu are out



Uchiha Brother said:


> Hiruzen casts genjutsu (the databook gives him a 5/5 in this category), uses bunshin to finish off opponent with elemental ninjutsu, rasengan, mind-body transefer etc.



The only problem with that is that the author has already given us a list of people who use rasengan and Hiruzen was not one of them. Plus, mind-body transfer is out. It is a clan SECRET jutsu EXCLUSIVE to Yamanaka. Finally, having a 5 out 5 in genjutsu does not mean shit. Look at Kurenai and Tayuya and how far their 5 out 5 in genjutsu has gotten them



Uchiha Brother said:


> Hiruzen casts bunshin, combines elemental attacks, wind feeding fire, water and wind, earth and fire etc.



Yeah but there is a small problem with that. Jiraiya, a student of Hiruzen, said the only person who mastered all six affinities was Nagato. We already know that Hiruzen was mastered yin(=genjutsu), so he can't use all five elements otherwise Kishi would be wrong about Nagato. Furthermore, to combine those elements he needs a kekkei tota, which he does not have. Sorry bro



Uchiha Brother said:


> Hiruzen opens gates, uses taijutsu, Akimichi techniques, Enma staff etc for physical attacks



See above



Uchiha Brother said:


> What supposedly makes Hiruzen so uber is NOT his own unique set of specific skills, as is typical of kages (ex. black lightening, jinton, mokuton, etc.) but rather his access to a huge variety of techniques, and the use of a few bunshins. Basically a few Hiruzen clones can impersonate most konoha ninja, but have the added benefit of knowing several skill sets, ex. a Hiruzen bunshin knows the Yamanaka skillset, but can also use Akimichi skills when the situation requires.



I wish this was true it is simply wrong. Plus, kage bunshin are so easy to get rid of. Just hit them and they are gone.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Sep 11, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> The only problem with that is that the author has already given us a list of people who use rasengan and Hiruzen was not one of them.




Where's this list? Databook?


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 11, 2011)

Wow I know of all the Pokemon Cards. Does that mean I have everyone of them


----------



## Udontard4ever (Sep 11, 2011)

please, try to make some sense
ty


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 11, 2011)

Basically Kabuto is saying the Hokage is the strongest Kage.

Shodai is the strongest 1st
Nidaime is the strongest 2nd
Sarutobi the strongest 3rd
Minato strongest 4th

Sounds right


----------



## Turrin (Sep 11, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> I'm saying that if Hiurzen would get a part II battle he would get something that would be "flashy" but not his trump card per se. Like Oonoki has Jinton, or Sandaime Raikge Black Lightning. These things are there to build hype, not some OHKO jutsus that makes them top tier


And I'm saying Kishi could have given Hiruzen as flashy Jutsu to build up his hype in Part I, considering that he did exactly that with Itachi in Part I.



> How were those ET performing differently then the current ET's who are fully under Kabuto's control. Shodai & Nidaime were doing fine and continuously pressuring Hiruzen. The old geezer had no chance and basically on the defense the whole time until he realized he had to pull out Shiki Fuin
> 
> I know they were definitely not the Shodai or Nidaime if they were alive, but you're acting like Hiruzen was fighting a 10% Shouten Clone or something


When it comes to Hashirama a 10% clone is being generous considering what we know about living Hashirama, I.E. having multiple Bijuu under his command, able to create a Mokuton forest the size of the Kyuubi, and having defeated EMS Madara.

When it comes to Tobirama a 10% clone also seems generous considering that he when alive he was able to hold of the entire Kinkaku force by himself. 



> Not really. Oro went out of his way to summon his Kusanagi sword and aim for the cheap shots when Hiruzen was distracted. However when Hiruzen used KB and let the clones handle the ET he 2 paneled Orochimaru in CQC, even when the latter had Kusanagi.


Dude Orochimaru didn't attack Hiruzen, even once, the entire time that Hiruzen was fighting the ET Hokage. That's why I said Orochimaru didn't do shit, because he literally didn't do anything the entire battle against the ET Hokage except stand their and occasionally defend. 



> Oro summons casket from the ground. Hiruzen recognizes it and comments on it, but 2 are already out. He starts forming seals before the 3rd one comes out. Not to mention this is a jutsu Hiruzen know, his sensei Tobirama had it. I seriously doubt Hiruzen would be casting seals for the lulz.


I'm not saying he was doing it for the lolz, I'm saying we don't know if his counter would have worked, since there are plenty of times in this manga where a Shinobi tries to counter another Shinobi's Jutsu and fails.



> Also first or second DB actually describes this jutsu iir.


I have never seen a description of the Jutsu Hiruzen tries to stop ET with in the DBs, I'd be interested in seeing it if it actually exists.



> Hiruzen has 5/5 for genjutsu and countered Hashirama's genjutsu. He knows it and quite skilled at it.
> And nothing sofar can block Jinton. Doesn't mean he can't dodge it or put out a Doton wall in front of him, so the Jinton will get rid of that instead of him



1. The Genjutsu stat measures knowledge and proficiency. Hiruzen could have a 5 simply due to knowledge, rather than proficiency. Now I agree with a 5 he probably has a some Genjutsu techniques, but where is the proof that any of these Genjutsu techniques would work or be enough to defeat a Kage Class Shinobi like Muu? The answer is you have none because we haven't seen Hiruzen use a single Genjutsu in the manga.

2. Hiruzen is not going to be able to dodge Onoki's attacks with his 3 in speed

3. Jinton would easily bust through a Doton wall. Onoki is able to bust the entire turtle island with his Jinton remember?



> He had 3/5 for stamina. Thats even better then Itachi, and Kakashi level. He won't be spamming high chakra level jutsu (like Kakashi does Kamui, Raikiri etc), but I'm pretty sure a Kage level character should be able to get along for a while


Can you show me a character with a 3 in Stamina that is capable of spamming a Doton wall large enough to block Yondaime Kazekage's Gold Dust Avalanche.



> Also his stamina only came into play when he used Kage Bunshin. He was doing decent before that


How about the fact that he was huffing and puffing after his short Jutsu exchange with the ET Hokage commenting on how heavy Enma had become. 



> So Old Hiruzen > Onooki, A, Yagura Madara and Yondaime Kazekage.....


Fixed and according to reputation he is.



> Trust me, I can make up a shitload battledome scenarios were Jiraya > Itachi. And I would have gladly believed so IF Itachi didn't cripple Orochimaru at fucking age 11 with regular genjutsus and a kunai
> And I don't care if Jiraya > Orochimaru (cuz he probably is), but the gap between them has never been displayed as big as the gap between Itachi & Orochimaru


So again your saying that reputation can be wrong and are arguing that it is based on your interpretation of the portrayal of Jiriaya, Oro, and Itachi. So tell me why its so hard to believe that Old Hiruzen's reputation is wrong considering the portrayal of Old Hiruzen vs the Kage that he was suppose to be stronger than?



> Thanks, this is actually quite helpful. Do you also happen to know if translators revisited that Iruka statement from part I? Was that more Iruka's opinion or rather the general consensus regarding Hiruzen?


The statement I posted from Takl was about all the Hiruzen statements. When it comes to Iruka's statement in particular this is Shounensuki's translation:

Originally Posted by *ShounenSuki * 
Iruka, Ch.94
「三代目は　特に歴代の中でも最強と言われポロフェッサーと呼ばれた天才だったんだぞ！」
"The sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and *was **called* the strongest of all the Hokage".​
The two things to note and that Takl makes note of in his comment I posted before is that Iruka says he was "called", so we don't know who was calling him the strongest Hokage and we don't know if everyone agreed with this or not, its just the rep that some unknown people have given him. The second thing to take note of is the was, so the statement only applies to the past tense, which leaves the door open for Yondaime or Godaime to have been stronger than Hiruzen. 

So there are only two options

1. Hiruzen's rep is BS and he wasn't the strongest Hokage in his prime
2. Hiruzen's rep is true and he was the strongest Hokage in his prime, but he was surpassed or at least equaled by Minato, considering the statement made by Yondaime Raikage.

If 1 is true than Hashirama and Minato will probably be the strongest Hokage. If 2 is true than Minato and Hiruzen will probably be the strongest Hokage.

Right now option 1 to me makes more sense, since its hard to image Hiruzen being stronger than someone who defeated EMS Madara, however unlike the statement about Old Hiruzen being stronger than the other Kage, I can't say for sure since we don't know anything about Prime Hiruzen's abilities and we still know very little about Hashirama's and Tobirama's abilities.


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## Reddan (Sep 11, 2011)

Turrin said:


> 1. Hiruzen's rep is BS and he wasn't the strongest Hokage in his prime
> 2. Hiruzen's rep is true and he was the strongest Hokage in his prime, but he was surpassed or at least equaled by Minato, considering the statement made by Yondaime Raikage.



I agree with this, but have always felt it was no 2. Hiruzen surpassed the previous kages, but in turn Minato surpassed him. 

Kishimoto had Sarutobi take out both previous kages. Then he had Kin/Ginkaku kill Tobirama. We have yet to learn how those two met their deaths. Now we are seeing the monstrous strength of Sandaime Raikage. Konoha was always the strongest village and Kishimoto is likely to leave the Sandaime Hokage as stronger than the respective Raikage and Tsuchikage.


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## Cromer (Sep 11, 2011)

With higher chakra and speed, even what Sandaime showed us at the end of his life : the likes of Jutsu Sho or the Enma summon, would still kick ass. I guess aging really DID take it out of him. Arthritis?


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## Deadway (Sep 11, 2011)

Author said he's the shit so he's the shit. Keep it at that. If we get a flashback of him scrapping someone in his prime he's gonna destroy anus with OP crap to put him back up there with the power inflation.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 11, 2011)

The author has implied that alot of ninja were the "best". We just have to go off by who says it in the manga. When Iruka states something, it should be used very lightly compared to if a Legendary Sannin or Kage says it.


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## Deadway (Sep 11, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The author has implied that alot of ninja were the "best". We just have to go off by who says it in the manga. When Iruka states something, it should be used very lightly compared to if a Legendary Sannin or Kage says it.



Kabuto said the same thing, look where he is now. Regardles who said it, It's the author who writes it. He can chose who he wants it to be said by but it's still his opinion and it's his Narutoverse.


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## αce (Sep 11, 2011)

Apparently authors are infallible and can't change their powerscaling. Kishi, in my opinion, went in the direction of making Hashirama the strongest hokage.


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## tgm2x (Sep 11, 2011)

Sasukethe7thHokage said:


> HE NEEDS A FLASHBACK! otherwise hes gonna just keep looking weaker each chap lol



Yeah


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## BlueDemon (Sep 11, 2011)

You guys really think he also mastered the "hiden" techs of the Konoha Clans? Wouldn?t that be a trust breach right there?
As for his might, I wouldn?t underestimate him at all. He probably would have figured the right tactics to fight anyone ( if he could?ve avoided getting blitzed right at the start...)

Also, I hope Konohamaru somehow will be able to summon Enma! Would be cool!


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## Naru-Ichi (Sep 11, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Sure but we're talking about a 70 year old Hiruzen.
> 
> Yeah again your talking about a 70 year old facing off against three kage level fighters.



You're just repeating what you said in the post to which I responded....and not even TRYING to come up with some type of argument against what I said 



> No, the closest we see to people doing things at a comparable age are the sannin as they fight in their 50's.  Lets take a look though at each one, Orochimaru uses younger bodies negating aging, Tsunade has the body of a 20 year old, and Jiraiya has a specific mode which increases his overall attributes.  Hiruzen doesn't have these kinds of things which is why age has affected him far more than these other characters at close ages.



1. The Sannin are not comparable in age to Hiruzen. There was at least a 10 year difference between the age Hiruzen died and the age of the Sannin in Part 2. Onoki, Chiyo, and Danzou are the only ones who are truly comparable to him age-wise, and ALL of them have better feats than him...

2. Trying to downplay the Sannin because of their abilities/techniques does NOT help your argument in any way. It just shows they have the means to stay as strong as they are, unlike Hiruzen.



> Sure, Minato is a legend of the past, he must be overrated too.  Madara also, Hashirama is overrated too.  The statement is meaningless.



Minato is not so much from the distant past like Hiruzen and the others you mentioned. However, the other two possibly could be overrated...hell, Minato could be "overrated" in a sense. But the difference is that all the ones you mentioned have some type of feats that give credit to their hype. Hiruzen doesn't.



> Give me an example, I've yet to see Onoki take anyone down yet.  He fought a kage with help from Gaara and Naruto, Hiruzen fought three kage level fighters by himself.



1. You don't NEED to kill someone to have better feats than someone else. What Onoki showcased (flight speed, strength {well I think this is partly a strength feat but it doesn't matter either way}, Jinton, etc) is greater than anything Hiruzen was shown to do.



> Its funny though how Kishimoto has gone out of his way numerous times with statements from Iruka, databook statements, Kabuto's statement, to show that Hiruzen is the strongest hokage/kage.  Why do you think he's stated it so many times?  He must not know what he's talking about right?



Honestly, Turrin and Senjuclan have pretty much taken care of this.

But Kishi clearly doesn't care for that any more considering how he's hype up Minato as being unsurpassable. And unlike Hiruzen, Minato's hype did not end in Part 1; it's lasted into recent chapters.


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## Turrin (Sep 11, 2011)

arednad said:


> I agree with this, but have always felt it was no 2. Hiruzen surpassed the previous kages, but in turn Minato surpassed him.
> 
> Kishimoto had Sarutobi take out both previous kages. Then he had Kin/Ginkaku kill Tobirama. We have yet to learn how those two met their deaths. Now we are seeing the monstrous strength of Sandaime Raikage. Konoha was always the strongest village and Kishimoto is likely to leave the Sandaime Hokage as stronger than the respective Raikage and Tsuchikage.


I don't think anyone has a problem believing that Hiruzen could have surpassed Tobirama, the issue is with all the hype Kishi has given Hashirama, is its really possible that Hiruzen was stronger than someone who defeated EMS Madara? The answer is that its possible, but it seems unlikely. 

And the reason it seems unlikely is that Hiruzen does not have the plot importance of Hashirama. Hashirama's story-line is tied to the final villain and Naruto/Sasuke, which means he will probably get a flashback much like Minato's, while Hiruzen would be lucky if he had a character or two mention him or a 1 ch flashback revolving around him.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 11, 2011)

Deadway said:


> Kabuto said the same thing, look where he is now. Regardles who said it, It's the author who writes it. He can chose who he wants it to be said by but it's still his opinion and it's his Narutoverse.



Kabuto never said Hiruzen was the strongest 

He said the Hokage is the strongest Kage. Please refresh on your manga.


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## Reddan (Sep 11, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I don't think anyone has a problem believing that Hiruzen could have surpassed Tobirama, the issue is with all the hype Kishi has given Hashirama, is its really possible that Hiruzen was stronger than someone who defeated EMS Madara? The answer is that its possible, but it seems unlikely.
> 
> And the reason it seems unlikely is that Hiruzen does not have the plot importance of Hashirama. Hashirama's story-line is tied to the final villain and Naruto/Sasuke, which means he will probably get a flashback much like Minato's, while Hiruzen would be lucky if he had a character or two mention him or a 1 ch flashback revolving around him.



In the case of Hashirama we really do not know the circumstances of his victory. We do not know how strong EMS Madara was withouth the Senju cells. If all his power was in his ability to summon the Kyubi then, Hashirama would be the perfect opponent to beat him despite being much weaker.

I agree we will get flash backs about Hashirama, but he really has not had much hype when it comes to his strength. He was the strongest ninja of his time and that is all the praise he gets. No one considers him the best of all time. No one thinks he is unsurpassed. Never has he been called the strongest Hokage, or Konoha's strongest ninja.

Once we know 
1) What jutsu did EMS Madara have
2) How exactly did Hashirama use the Bijuu
3) Who killed Hashirama

Then we will be better placed to say he is stronger than Hiruzen. I personally think he is going to be FAR weaker than most people expected.

EDIT

Here is an example. Tobirama was hyped and praised for his suiton skills. At the time he was probably the best in the world. However, Darui and Kakashi can do the same thing. Kisame completely blows him out of the water. What was impressive for past ninjas is not so for the newer generation.


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## jimbob631 (Sep 11, 2011)

Naru-Ichi said:


> You're just repeating what you said in the post to which I responded....and not even TRYING to come up with some type of argument against what I said



What you were doing was criticizing 70 year old Hiruzen, whose feats have little bearing on prime Hiruzen.  Thats why I repeated myself.  His own summon told him he was miserable compared to his prime after a brief couple page skirmish.  That right there indicates his elder self is nothing compared to what he can do in his prime.  Notice his stats to, all 5s aside from physical ones, clearly lower because of his age.  Just a two more point increase, which is not that farfetched to think he would get in his prime, puts him above every other character that has databook stats.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> 1. The Sannin are not comparable in age to Hiruzen. There was at least a 10 year difference between the age Hiruzen died and the age of the Sannin in Part 2. Onoki, Chiyo, and Danzou are the only ones who are truly comparable to him age-wise, and ALL of them have better feats than him...



I'm aware, however we've seen Hiruzen at a comparable age briefly fight in the Minato flashback which is why I brought it up.  Chiyo has worse stats than elder Hiruzen and heavily used Sakura's strength, without it she would have done much poorer against Sasori.  Again your talking about Chiyo with help taking one kage level opponent, Hiruzen fought three.  Clearly less impressive than Hiruzen. 

Onoki has literally done nothing, he flied around with Deidara and looked lost fighting Muu.  

Danzo I will say does have better feats than Hiruzen, however there are a couple of things to note:

1.  Danzo has augmented his body with Hashirama's cells, the strongest genjutsu in the manga and a specific technique (izanagi) which allows him to be invulnerable.  Its safe to say Danzo with these abilities are his prime, not when he was younger.

2.  Everything in the Danzo fight pointed to Danzo being inferior to Hiruzen and still being one step behind him.  

strength
strength
strength

The most important one is the last one where Danzo says No matter how far I went I could never catch up to you.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> 2. Trying to downplay the Sannin because of their abilities/techniques does NOT help your argument in any way. It just shows they have the means to stay as strong as they are, unlike Hiruzen.



In no way am I downplaying them, in fact I'm praising that they had ways to counteract aging where Hiruzen did not.  Doesn't make Hiruzen in his prime weaker.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> Minato is not so much from the distant past like Hiruzen and the others you mentioned. However, the other two possibly could be overrated...hell, Minato could be "overrated" in a sense. But the difference is that all the ones you mentioned have some type of feats that give credit to their hype. Hiruzen doesn't.



So use the statement for everyone else but your favorite, cuz 16 years ago or so doesn't count as the past.  Hashirama has not one feat for his hype, nor does Madara really, we rely on there hype to give us an idea that they were leagues ahead of everyone else.  






Naru-Ichi said:


> 1. You don't NEED to kill someone to have better feats than someone else. What Onoki showcased (flight speed, strength {well I think this is partly a strength feat but it doesn't matter either way}, Jinton, etc) is greater than anything Hiruzen was shown to do.



He hasn't touched anyone in a battle, I want him to have a battle feat before I say he's superior to someone who took on three kage level fighters at once.  




Naru-Ichi said:


> But Kishi clearly doesn't care for that any more considering how he's hype up Minato as being unsurpassable. And unlike Hiruzen, Minato's hype did not end in Part 1; it's lasted into recent chapters.



Clearly he does as he's never disputed the statement, in fact he's made a clear distinction between Hashirama and Minato's hype and Hiruzen's hype.  Hashirama is called the greatest ninja of his time, Minato is given general statements about his genius and skills which are similar to other ninjas hype such as Itachi.  

He also has had part 2 hype as Danzo said he could never catch up to him.  The same Danzo who has izanagi, the strongest genjutsu, and hashiramas cells/mokuton.  Hiruzen was called not once, not twice, but three times the strongest kage/hokage.  Once by Iruka, once by Kabuto, and once by Kishimoto in the databook, clearly the evidence is on Hiruzen's side.


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## Turrin (Sep 11, 2011)

arednad said:


> In the case of Hashirama we really do not know the circumstances of his victory. We do not know how strong EMS Madara was withouth the Senju cells. If all his power was in his ability to summon the Kyubi then, Hashirama would be the perfect opponent to beat him despite being much weaker.


I really doubt EMS Madara's only powerful technique is Kuchiyose: Kyuubi. EMS Madara should at least have 2 MS techniques [if not 3+]: 1 from Izuna's Mangekyo and 1 from his own Mangekyo. Now even if we assume that Kuchiyose: Kyuubi is 1 of those Mangekyo Techniques, he should still have another incredibly powerful Mangekyo Technique. Than there is the fact that Onoki considers Madara unstoppable in his prime, even w/o the Kyuubi. 



> I agree we will get flash backs about Hashirama, but he really has not had much hype when it comes to his strength. He was the strongest ninja of his time and that is all the praise he gets. No one considers him the best of all time. No one thinks he is unsurpassed. Never has he been called the strongest Hokage, or Konoha's strongest ninja.


Hashirama being the strongest ninja of his time is huge hype considering that there were monsters like Madara running around who even Kages like Onoki are afraid of.



> I personally think he is going to be FAR weaker than most people expected.


I don't know what most people expect, but I'd be willing to bet you that he's stronger than you expect him to be.



> Here is an example. Tobirama was hyped and praised for his suiton skills. At the time he was probably the best in the world. However, Darui and Kakashi can do the same thing. Kisame completely blows him out of the water.


Darui and Kakashi have not shown superior Suiton to Tobirama. Kisame is the only character that has and really Kisame being more proficient in Suiton than Tobirama isn't saying much. 



> What was impressive for past ninjas is not so for the newer generation.


After recent chapters haven't you realized that the Younger Generation surpassing the older generation ether 

A) Only applies to the rookie generation 
or 
B) Only applies to the younger generation as a whole surpassing the older generation rather than there being a specific shinobi from the younger generation which surpasses a specific shinobi from the older generation. For example Sandaime Raikage > Yondaime Raikage, but B + A > Sandaime Raikage, making this generation of Kumo stronger than the last generation of kumo.

Or another example: Rikudo Sannin > younger brother or older brother, but probably Younger Brother + Old Brother + the other apprentices of Rikudo Sannin > Rikudo Sannin.


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## Reddan (Sep 11, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I really doubt EMS Madara's only powerful technique is Kuchiyose: Kyuubi. EMS Madara should at least have 2 MS techniques [if not 3+]: 1 from Izuna's Mangekyo and 1 from his own Mangekyo. Now even if we assume that Kuchiyose: Kyuubi is 1 of those Mangekyo Techniques, he should still have another incredibly powerful Mangekyo Technique. Than there is the fact that Onoki considers Madara unstoppable in his prime, even w/o the Kyuubi.


Madara's MS technique was almost cetainly a genjutsu. Kakashi knew of the MS and expected Itachi to use a genjutsu. Onoki had fought Madara previously and praised him for his genjutsu. 

EMS Madara did not have Amaterasu, Susano'o, his phasing ability or teleportation. 

Onoki said Madara could accomplish his plan, but that was taken into account he had 7 of the tailed beast. Onoki constantly brought up this fact. He never once says Madara is unstoppable.


> Hashirama being the strongest ninja of his time is huge hype considering that there were monsters like Madara running around who even Kages like Onoki are afraid of.


Onoki was never afraid of Madara and was just a young teen when they met. He was more afraid of the 7 Bijuu. As I said read the chapter again and he constantly brings up their fearsome power.


> I don't know what most people expect, but I'd be willing to bet you that he's stronger than you expect him to be.


I expect him to be weaker than Hiruzen, Tobirama, Minato, Orochimaru, Jiraiya and Itachi.


> Darui and Kakashi have not shown superior Suiton to Tobirama. Kisame is the only character that has and really Kisame being more proficient in Suiton than Tobirama isn't saying much.


You added a word there which I never used. I never once said Darui and Kakashi showed superio Suiton to Tobirama. I said they showed Suiton on the same level. Something he was praised for as being the best in the world can be done by a couple of kage candidates at the present, even though suiton is not their elemental affinity.


> After recent chapters haven't you realized that the Younger Generation surpassing the older generation ether
> 
> A) Only applies to the rookie generation
> or
> B) Only applies to the younger generation as a whole surpassing the older generation rather than there being a specific shinobi from the younger generation which surpasses a specific shinobi from the older generation. For example Sandaime Raikage > Yondaime Raikage, but B + A > Sandaime Raikage, making this generation of Kumo stronger than the last generation of kumo.


I disagree with this completely. Sandaime Raikage has shown himself to be a tank, but what makes you think he is stronger than his son? Have you not noticed that the Raikage is being held back. How easily do you think Bee would thrash the Raikage when he uses Samehada to absorb his chakra?

Not to mention the Youngest Generation of the 7 Swordsmen were the strongest, Gaara seems to be the strongest kazekage, Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru and the recent revelations about Shishui.


> Or another example: Rikudo Sannin > younger brother or older brother, but probably Younger Brother + Old Brother + the other apprentices of Rikudo Sannin > Rikudo Sannin.



Rikoudo Sennin is the exception since he is the God, who started the ninja world. The younger generation build on the techniques of the older ones and become stronger.

For instance genius Kakashi invents chidori,  genius Sasuke makes several variations, new generation genius adds to this further. Edo Tensei is another example. Tobirama develops it, Orochimaru improves, then Kabuto perfects it.


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## jimbob631 (Sep 11, 2011)

Naru-Ichi said:


> I don't think you understand. NO ONE denies that Prime Hiruzen could/would have done MUCH better. I even admitted that.



And I already explained how other people at comparable ages did not do as well.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> 1. It may not be farfetched, but it's still speculation at best



Is it really speculation?  Lets look at his stats, he has a 5 in everything aside from strength, speed, and stamina.  His stamina specifically was mentioned as piss poor compared to his prime with the clone comments.  His strength was clearly less as well as he was surprised he couldn't wield enma better.  That only warrants at the very least a two point increase.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> 2. Do we know for a fact that those stats were of his old self and not his prime?



Are we talking about child Itachi with his stats, or teenage Orochimaru?  This is your weakest argument yet.  Lets take Chiyo's stats which shows a 2 in stamina, clearly these stats are talking about their elder state, just like Itachi's are referring to his sick self.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> 3. Even if we give him all 5s, it still wouldn't mean that he is more "powerful" than someone who doesn't have that. We KNOW that it has more do with that person's skill and jutsu arsenal than anything (i.e. some jutsus negate any "advantage" one would have in a given area).



I would agree, however its added info that helps establish Hiruzen's place as the strongest hokage.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> And yet her feats were somewhat more impressive. I mean at least she fought someone who was actually trying to kill her.



Wasn't trying to kill him?  Go back and read the fight, there's a difference between not going all out and not trying to kill him.  better than someone who decided to give up at the end of the fight and let Chiyo kill him.  







Naru-Ichi said:


> Please stop using that argument. For one, he didn't "fight" three opponents at the same time. Secondly, you can't even really call it "fighting" if they are playing around with you.



Why, he did fight all three, Orochimaru was using his sword, Tobirama was using suitons, and Hashirama was using mokuton and his genjutsu (two of the most haxxed abilities in the manga which Hiruzen showed he could deal with).  









Naru-Ichi said:


> Though still his abilities. He, unlike Hiruzen, didn't let age slow him down. At least he wasn't "wasting away" (not as in dying but getting weaker).



Theres been multiple references to his age hindering him and his fight against Muu has indicated this even more.  Muu would have killed him easily without Gaara.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> If you read that whole speech/thought, he was never really referring to strength (or at least not solely).



But he clearly was, the whole chapter seemed to indicate Hiruzen's superiority and that even with all his modifications he still wasn't superior to Hiruzen.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> And Madara and Hashirama do have feats...although they both pertain to fighting each other, but Onoki already gave insight on Madara's power.



No they don't, we have one page with them fighting which indicates absolutely nothing.  Onoki's hype statement about Madara is not as impressive as the various statements claiming Hiruzen is the strongest hokage.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> 1. He doesn't NEED to touch some in battle though. If you can't clearly see how Old Hiruzen would get raped by Old Onoki then that's sad since Old Hiruzen has shown absolutely NOTHING that would be effective against Onoki (besides Minato's jutsu).



Your right, I clearly can't see why, you've yet to explain how this happens though.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> 2. If it was Onoki in Hiruzen's place then (from what was shown), he would have done MUCH better. Hell, Orochimaru would have more than likely been killed too (although, this is all dependent on Orochimaru toying around with Onoki like he did with Hiruzen).



Again your not explaining how this is so.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> 1. He "disputed" that statement as soon as he starting giving Minato as much hype as he did. You seem to want him to say "Minato (or Hashirama) was the strongest Hokage, not Hiruzen" when that is completely unnecessary.



He's yet to say either are the strongest Hokage and the statements about them have been used about others, your ignoring my argument.  Itachi has similar hype statements, but I doubt you think Itachi is superior to Minato and Hashirama.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> 2. He's never made any distinction between their hype  You don't say someone is "unsurpassable" just to have someone else being stronger than them.



Yes he has, he's used hyperbole comments on Minato, the same which Itachi has received, whereas he has straight up called Hiruzen the strongest hokage.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> Danzou never admitted inferiority to Hiruzen, power/strength-wise though.



Again, the whole chapter was about Danzo not being able to catch up to Hiruzen.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> Hiruzen "was said" to be the strongest Hokage/Kage. We KNOW for a fact that what "is said" to be does not necessarily mean it was, e.g. "The sharingan is said to be derived from the Byakugan"



When its mentioned three times by three sources it tends to mean its true.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> And again, going back to the past hype doesn't mean anything when he has pretty much made it clear that Minato (and Hashirama I guess) were stronger with the unsurpassable statements. Newer feats/hype > old ones.



Already explained this, Hiruzen's hype is clearer and definite, your deciding Minato is stronger im guessing because he's your fav, reverse the scenario and I'd bet you'd be arguing for Hiruzen.  I'm just using the clearer statement.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 11, 2011)

I would like to butt in for a minute



arednad said:


> Madara's MS technique was almost cetainly a genjutsu. Kakashi knew of the MS and expected Itachi to use a genjutsu. Onoki had fought Madara previously and praised him for his genjutsu.



Itachi said that Madara was the strongest Uchiha, the strongest Uchiha with EMS must have mastered mangekyou sharingan, which means he has three jutsu not one



arednad said:


> EMS Madara did not have Amaterasu, Susano'o, his phasing ability or teleportation.



How can one be the strongest Uchiha and not master mangekyou sharingan? If he mastered mangekyou sharingan, he has susano'o. It is pretty clear that he had tsukuyomi as well since he plans to use it



arednad said:


> Onoki said Madara could accomplish his plan, but that was taken into account he had 7 of the tailed beast. Onoki constantly brought up this fact. He never once says Madara is unstoppable.



False. Oonoki said with your strength, you can accomplish anything. This is the strength of his sharingan. When he talks about him a second time, he mentions Madara's sharingan



arednad said:


> Onoki was never afraid of Madara and was just a young teen when they met. He was more afraid of the 7 Bijuu. As I said read the chapter again and he constantly brings up their fearsome power.



Actualy, it looks like you are the one who needs to read the chapter again


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## Turrin (Sep 11, 2011)

arednad said:


> Madara's MS technique was almost cetainly a genjutsu. Kakashi knew of the MS and expected Itachi to use a genjutsu. Onoki had fought Madara previously and praised him for his genjutsu.


Possibly



> EMS Madara did not have Amaterasu, Susano'o, his phasing ability or teleportation.


And this is based on what exactly?



> Onoki said Madara could accomplish his plan, but that was taken into account he had 7 of the tailed beast. Onoki constantly brought up this fact. He never once says Madara is unstoppable.Onoki was never afraid of Madara and was just a young teen when they met. He was more afraid of the 7 Bijuu. As I said read the chapter again and he constantly brings up their fearsome power.


He brings up Madara's power not the Bijuu's. Onoki, _"with your power"_.  The clear point of that entire scene was to indicate that currently Madara was not as powerful as he was when he faced Hashirama, hence Madara's response that he's, _"little more than a shell of my former self."_



> I expect him to be weaker than Hiruzen, Tobirama, Minato, Orochimaru, Jiraiya and Itachi.


Itachi beat Orochimaru and is stronger than Orochimaru. Itachi and Kisame indicate that Jiriaya is roughly around the same "level" as Itachi, yes I know you'll probably disagree and i'm not here to debate that i'm just using this to show that at best Jiriaya is roughly around Itachi's "level".

Itachi clearly states that he needs EMS to surpass Madara. Considering Itachi used the present tense, he is probably referring to current Madara who is much weaker than EMS Madara, but even if we assume he was referring to EMS Madara it would mean he could only surpass EMS Madara by obtaining an EMS of his own, which in turn means that Itachi at the very best is as strong as EMS Madara and its stated that Hashirama is stronger than EMS Madara. 

So everything in the manga indicates Hashirama > Jiriaya, Orochimaru, and Itachi and personally I don't see anything that would indicate any of them are stronger than him.

When it comes to Tobirama, the only way Tobirama could have surpassed him is after Hashirama's death, but that seems highly unlikely based on Hashirama's hype as the strongest Senju ever, whose DNA everyone is after not Tobirama's. So honestly I see nothing that indicates Tobirama is stronger and everything seems to indicate he is not.



> You added a word there which I never used. I never once said Darui and Kakashi showed superio Suiton to Tobirama. I said they showed Suiton on the same level. Something he was praised for as being the best in the world can be done by a couple of kage candidates at the present, even though suiton is not their elemental affinity.


They did not show Suiton on the same level. None of them have created such a large Suiton w/o a water source. 



> I disagree with this completely. Sandaime Raikage has shown himself to be a tank, but what makes you think he is stronger than his son?


\
The fact that so far Sandaime Raikage has shown a greater offense and defense than his son between his natural endurance, Raiton Armor, Four Finger Hell Bringer, and the fact that he commanded the 5th treasure. All that and we still haven't seen his black lightning yet. 



> ave you not noticed that the Raikage is being held back. How easily do you think Bee would thrash the Raikage when he uses Samehada to absorb his chakra?


I doubt B could land a hit on him to absorb his chakra with Samehada and we already know that Sandaime Raikage can defeat B's strongest form with only a minor scar to show for it. So I'm not going to say Sandaime Raikage's is for sure stronger than B, but I doubt B has surpassed him ether.



> Not to mention the Youngest Generation of the 7 Swordsmen were the strongest, Gaara seems to be the strongest kazekage, Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru and the recent revelations about Shishui.
> For instance genius Kakashi invents chidori, genius Sasuke makes several variations, new generation genius adds to this further. Edo Tensei is another example. Tobirama develops it, Orochimaru improves, then Kabuto perfects it.


Sure their are examples of the younger generation surpassing the older generation, but this clearly does not apply to everyone, I can list the various examples if you want.



> Rikoudo Sennin is the exception since he is the God, who started the ninja world. The younger generation build on the techniques of the older ones and become stronger.


You can't say Rikudo-Sannin is the exception, if their is an exception than the rule does not always apply and therefore can not be used in a credible debate. 

Kishi stated that the Younger Generation surpasses the Older Generation, that statement merely means the Younger Generation as a whole > Older Generation as a whole, it does not mean that every member of the younger generation surpasses their older generation counter part, that's something you and most of the forum add to the text, which is not present.

My model which I explained in my last post, makes more sense than yours since it doesn't rely on adding shit to the text and their are no exceptions or contradictions.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Sep 11, 2011)

That statement is incredibly outdated Hiruzen obviously isn't the strongest Kage, honestly that title goes to Hashirama for beating the Kyuubi + EMS Madara at the same time.

This is how I rank the Hokage's, 

Hashirama>Minato>Hiruzen>=Tobirama>Tsunade


----------



## namezox (Sep 11, 2011)

Because the author ruined part 2. and plus the FACT he stated it. Not the fans but the author. The author didnt anticipate this far.


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## Naru-Ichi (Sep 11, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> And I already explained how other people at comparable ages did not do as well.





When? 

All you done was state "he fought 3 kage level ninjas" while ignoring key parts of that fight.



> Is it really speculation?  Lets look at his stats, he has a 5 in everything aside from strength, speed, and stamina.  His stamina specifically was mentioned as piss poor compared to his prime with the clone comments.  His strength was clearly less as well as he was surprised he couldn't wield enma better.  That only warrants at the very least a two point increase.



Yes, it would still be speculation. How do you know his strength, speed, stamina wouldn't only go up by 1 or 1.5? You don't.



> Are we talking about child Itachi with his stats, or teenage Orochimaru?  This is your weakest argument yet.  Lets take Chiyo's stats which shows a 2 in stamina, clearly these stats are talking about their elder state, just like Itachi's are referring to his sick self.



Why would we talk about child Itachi or teenage Orochimaru? My whole point was his prime self, so why would their prime self also be taken into account? See how that wasn't an effective "counter"? 

And how do we know Chiyo didn't always have a 2 in stamina? I mean it's not like it mattered that much to her fighting style.

As for the Itachi part, you're implying that there was some other form of Itachi that existed.



> Wasn't trying to kill him?  Go back and read the fight, there's a difference between not going all out and not trying to kill him.  better than someone who decided to give up at the end of the fight and let Chiyo kill him.



If someone is toying with you the whole fight (or at least most of it), then they are clearly not trying to kill you.

As for the last part, no. At least Sasori was attacking to kill them at first, then ending really has no bearing on that...



> Why, he did fight all three, Orochimaru was using his sword, Tobirama was using suitons, and Hashirama was using mokuton and his genjutsu (two of the most haxxed abilities in the manga which Hiruzen showed he could deal with).



1. You are making it seem like he fought all three at the same time, which is false. Orochimaru just stood there most of the fight.

2. Again, there is a difference between "fighting three kage level ninjas" who are trying to kill you instead of two kage level ninjas toying with you and one kage level ninja just looking.

3. I will give you the genjutsu being "haxxed" (I guess); however, Mokuton is nowhere near haxxed 



> Theres been multiple references to his age hindering him and his fight against Muu has indicated this even more.  Muu would have killed him easily without Gaara.



That's not my point. He was still far more impressive in his old age than Hiruzen was in his...



> But he clearly was, the whole chapter seemed to indicate Hiruzen's superiority and that even with all his modifications he still wasn't superior to Hiruzen.



It had nothing to do with Hiruzen's superiority in strength (although I do believe that Hiruzen was more than likely stronger than that Danzou). If you read again, you can clearly see it had not so much to do with strength, but other things. I mean look at where Danzou calls himself weak, it was not because he was physically weak but rather mentally weak.



> No they don't, we have one page with them fighting which indicates absolutely nothing.  Onoki's hype statement about Madara is not as impressive as the various statements claiming Hiruzen is the strongest hokage.



1. You seem to be under the impression that feats only pertain to the battles we see on-screen, but that's not what they are. Go look up the definition of "feat" and then come back

2. Admittedly, I don't remember exactly what Onoki said; however, IIRC, didn't he say that Madara was capable of taking on all of the kages by himself? If so, then those truly do outweigh Hiruzen's hype statement.



> Your right, I clearly can't see why, you've yet to explain how this happens though.
> 
> Again your not explaining how this is so.



The explanation was given in that post 



			
				Naru-Ichi said:
			
		

> Old Hiruzen has shown absolutely NOTHING that would be effective against Onoki (besides Minato's jutsu).



As for Onoki doing better than Old Hiruzen, him flying up and using Jinton in that confined spaced would more than likely fuck Orochimaru and the Edo up (and considering they didn't show anything truly capable of defending against that...).



> He's yet to say either are the strongest Hokage and the statements about them have been used about others, your ignoring my argument.  Itachi has similar hype statements, but I doubt you think Itachi is superior to Minato and Hashirama.
> 
> Yes he has, he's used hyperbole comments on Minato, the same which Itachi has received, whereas he has straight up called Hiruzen the strongest hokage.



This is truly going ot be my last time repeating this. Kishi does NOT have to plainly state that Minato or Hashirama were the strongest Hokage. That is completely unnecessary. Minato's hype statements (being called unsurpassable more than once...) clearly contradicts that whole "Sarutobi was called the strongest Hokage" statement. Simple reading comprehension should tell you that.

And please show me where Itachi got the same level of hype of Minato 



> Again, the whole chapter was about Danzo not being able to catch up to Hiruzen.



Already covered this so....



> When its mentioned three times by three sources it tends to mean its true.



It was only mentioned in the manga and databook. That's only two source. And the ones in the manga were not definite statements.

And since we're using that logic, Minato was called unsurpassable in the manga. And that Naruto is the only one capable of surpassing him. And that everyone pales in comparison to him...and that his capacity as a shinobi was unparalled. Given that, you do agree that Sarutobi never surpassed him and that he pales in comparison to Minato, right? (Please note that these statements were made AFTER the Sarutobi statements, meaning they were not contradicted by statements about Sarutobi...and are more so meant to override Sarutobi's if anything...



Already explained this, Hiruzen's hype is clearer and definite, your deciding Minato is stronger im guessing because he's your fav, reverse the scenario and I'd bet you'd be arguing for Hiruzen.  I'm just using the clearer statement.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jimbob631 (Sep 11, 2011)

Naru-Ichi said:


> When?
> 
> All you done was state "he fought 3 kage level ninjas" while ignoring key parts of that fight.



With you ignoring Hiruzen having good feats in the fight like tagging the edos, fighting through Hashirama's genjutsu, dealing with Mokuton, fighting Oro with enma, showing the durability of the enma cage, etc.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> Yes, it would still be speculation. How do you know his strength, speed, stamina wouldn't only go up by 1 or 1.5? You don't.



All I said was his strength warrants a one point increase at the very least and his stamina warrants a one point increase at the very least putting him up two points and ahead of every character stat wise.  thats by me using manga fact, speculation would be me increasing his strength, speed, and stamina way more, what I did was reasonable.  







Naru-Ichi said:


> And how do we know Chiyo didn't always have a 2 in stamina? I mean it's not like it mattered that much to her fighting style.



I guess your right, I have no clue if its prime or elder, if you had to guess though which do you think the databook is talking about?



Naru-Ichi said:


> As for the Itachi part, you're implying that there was some other form of Itachi that existed.



There is, we just saw it.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> If someone is toying with you the whole fight (or at least most of it), then they are clearly not trying to kill you.



Three kage level fighters toying with a 70 year old man...



Naru-Ichi said:


> As for the last part, no. At least Sasori was attacking to kill them at first, then ending really has no bearing on that...



Without that Sakura and Chiyo would have died, it had everything to do with the fight.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> 1. You are making it seem like he fought all three at the same time, which is false. Orochimaru just stood there most of the fight.



Again though we're talking about a 70 year old.  Im kinda tired of defending old Hiruzen anyone as my main point is his superiority in his prime.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> 2. Again, there is a difference between "fighting three kage level ninjas" who are trying to kill you instead of two kage level ninjas toying with you and one kage level ninja just looking.



Except if you read the chapter you'll see Oro did participate at times.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> 3. I will give you the genjutsu being "haxxed" (I guess); however, Mokuton is nowhere near haxxed



I think your being sarcastic about mokuton.  The only known ability to control bijuu seems fairly haxxed if your not being sarcastic.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> That's not my point. He was still far more impressive in his old age than Hiruzen was in his...



Give me an actual example





Naru-Ichi said:


> It had nothing to do with Hiruzen's superiority in strength (although I do believe that Hiruzen was more than likely stronger than that Danzou). If you read again, you can clearly see it had not so much to do with strength, but other things. I mean look at where Danzou calls himself weak, it was not because he was physically weak but rather mentally weak.



Not gonna go through this again, he says couldn't catch up to him, it seems to indicate strength to me.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> 1. You seem to be under the impression that feats only pertain to the battles we see on-screen, but that's not what they are. Go look up the definition of "feat" and then come back



Not gonna do that, explain it to me.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> 2. Admittedly, I don't remember exactly what Onoki said; however, IIRC, didn't he say that Madara was capable of taking on all of the kages by himself? If so, then those truly do outweigh Hiruzen's hype statement.



I would agree Madara can take all of them out in his prime, doesn't mean Hiruzen can't and it has no bearing on Hiruzen being the strongest hokage.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> As for Onoki doing better than Old Hiruzen, him flying up and using Jinton in that confined spaced would more than likely fuck Orochimaru and the Edo up (and considering they didn't show anything truly capable of defending against that...).



Orochimaru has shown numerous counters to jutsu like that, like his counter to bijuudama.  He is easily one of the most resilient characters.  Edos don't need counters they can just regen but genjutsu is a perfect counter and mokuton could be as well.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> This is truly going ot be my last time repeating this. Kishi does NOT have to plainly state that Minato or Hashirama were the strongest Hokage. That is completely unnecessary. Minato's hype statements (being called unsurpassable more than once...) clearly contradicts that whole "Sarutobi was called the strongest Hokage" statement. Simple reading comprehension should tell you that.



He does when he's already said one is better than the other.  His statement is clear, Minato's is a hyperbole.  



Naru-Ichi said:


> And please show me where Itachi got the same level of hype of Minato



sharingan

The unsurpassable Minato vs the Invincible Itachi.  Who will win the battle of hyperbole statements.  





Naru-Ichi said:


> It was only mentioned in the manga and databook. That's only two source. And the ones in the manga were not definite statements.



Yeah its been stated in the only two important sources....

When I said three I meant Kabuto, Iruka, and the databook. 



Naru-Ichi said:


> And since we're using that logic, Minato was called unsurpassable in the manga. And that Naruto is the only one capable of surpassing him. And that everyone pales in comparison to him...and that his capacity as a shinobi was unparalled. Given that, you do agree that Sarutobi never surpassed him and that he pales in comparison to Minato, right? (Please note that these statements were made AFTER the Sarutobi statements, meaning they were not contradicted by statements about Sarutobi...and are more so meant to override Sarutobi's if anything...



Already covered the unsurpassable statement, Hiruzen's is more definite and its been said three times, what I'm doing is using the clearer statement, your using the statement thats about your favorite character.


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## Naru-Ichi (Sep 12, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> With you ignoring Hiruzen having good feats in the fight like tagging the edos, fighting through Hashirama's genjutsu, dealing with Mokuton, fighting Oro with enma, showing the durability of the enma cage, etc.



The only feat of those worth mention is him tagging the edos (admittedly, this is my personal favorite from him).

He didn't fight through Shodai's genjutsu...at least not in the manga. The only noteworthy thing he did was find and grab the their bodies (although he took damage in the process).

As for him fighting Oro with Enma, how is that a great feat? I mean don't get me wrong, he did good for his age I guess, but it's not like Oro has shown to be some great swordsman. And all he really had to do was make it so that he could grab Oro (seeing as he already had the suicide jutsu ready).

The part about Enma's cage's durability is pretty meaningless (though it never really showed any "durability") considering all it did was save him from Mokuton...

Though you know going back over that fight in the manga, it was even worse than I remembered. Shodaime and Nidaime barely did anything.



> All I said was his strength warrants a one point increase at the very least and his stamina warrants a one point increase at the very least putting him up two points and ahead of every character stat wise.  thats by me using manga fact, speculation would be me increasing his strength, speed, and stamina way more, what I did was reasonable.



I actually thought that you said he would get a two point increase in strength, stamina, and speed. My bad. However, it's still speculation. Reasonable of course, but speculation nonetheless.



> I guess your right, I have no clue if its prime or elder, if you had to guess though which do you think the databook is talking about?



I would prefer if it was talking about his old self to be honest. Hiruzen is my second favorite kage (well he's kinda tied with Tobirama), so it would be nice if those were only his old stats, meaning he was even stronger than that.



> There is, we just saw it.



We saw Edo Itachi who pretty much has a infinite amount of chakra. It's hardly the same thing.

However, it's not like Edo Itachi showed anything different from this "sick" Itachi (besides the Susanoo jutsu of course).



> Three kage level fighters toying with a 70 year old man...



Reading the chapter again, it's not even toying with him...just barely fighting him at all.



> Without that Sakura and Chiyo would have died, it had everything to do with the fight.



Umm...ok.

And no, Sasori choosing to die had nothing to do with my point.



> Except if you read the chapter you'll see Oro did participate at times.



All Oro did was defend himself from the staff attack...



> I think your being sarcastic about mokuton.  The only known ability to control bijuu seems fairly haxxed if your not being sarcastic.



It having the ability to suppress bijuu has nothing do with it being a haxxed ability against shinobi.



> Give me an actual example



I've given you links before.



> Not gonna go through this again, he says couldn't catch up to him, it seems to indicate strength to me.



And I've already responded to that argument.



> Not gonna do that, explain it to me.



Why would I? If you want to know what a word means then go look it up yourself or remain ignorant. Your blissful ignorance, however, does not help your argument or hurt mine.



> I would agree Madara can take all of them out in his prime, doesn't mean Hiruzen can't and it has no bearing on Hiruzen being the strongest hokage.



At the same time (which is what I think the Madara statement was referring to if I'm not mistaken, though I could be completely wrong)? There is no way in hell that is happening.



> Orochimaru has shown numerous counters to jutsu like that, like his counter to bijuudama.  He is easily one of the most resilient characters.  Edos don't need counters they can just regen but genjutsu is a perfect counter and mokuton could be as well.



Would Kuchiyose: Sanjū Rashōmon  even fit in that confined space?

Neither that genjutsu or Mokuton would be an actual counter to that technique. Mokuton would be destroyed and the genjutsu doesn't do nothing but turn everything dark so it wouldn't stop the attack.

But you know, if Oro did have to summon the gates and they had to do all that to block the attack, that would mean Onoki still did better than Old Hiruzen.



> He does when he's already said one is better than the other.  His statement is clear, Minato's is a hyperbole.



There is no ambiguity with Minato's statement. And you can't deem one and exaggeration yet another one definitive just because you want to. Minato's hype statement were made as clear as Sarutobi's...



> I'm pretty sure he remained certain that he killed Sasuke in that explosion.
> 
> The unsurpassable Minato vs the Invincible Itachi.  Who will win the battle of hyperbole statements.





I don't know if you're serious or not. Because those two statements are nothing alike. Itachi's statement was referring to a jutsu that makes him seemingly untouchable for as long as he can hold it up (although we know that there are ways around it, e.g. S/T jutsu). 

The statement about Minato is about is overall strength and skill as a shinobi.



> Yeah its been stated in the only two important sources....
> 
> When I said three I meant Kabuto, Iruka, and the databook.



And Minato has three: Jiraiya, Kakashi, and Raikage. All of which were said after the statement of Sarutobi, pretty much negating his whole hype.



> Already covered the unsurpassable statement, Hiruzen's is more definite and its been said three times, what I'm doing is using the clearer statement, your using the statement thats about your favorite character.



No you did not. And stated one was an exaggeration yet gave no reason as to why it is such (even though it was stated more than once).

And even if you did, you should have still answered my questions. The fact that you did not tells me that you know that your argument does not hold up (whether you answered 'yes' or 'no').


----------



## Udontard4ever (Sep 12, 2011)

man, the dotons of text
i guess we'll just have to wait and see if kishi wants to give us a flashback
still i can't see how hiruzen could not have learned rasengan

even konohamaru with fucking naruto as a sensei was able to learn it

i'm pretty sure he could use it, at least at kakashi's level


----------



## Helios (Sep 12, 2011)

Hasan said:


> It's was Minato's show anyway and driving the most powerful bijuu on rampage out of the village is nothing, you say?  Minato believed that Hiruzen was capable of dealing with Kyuubi. *It speaks masses about Sarutobi.* It doesn't matter that others came to help. The point is Minato thought that he was capable.



The whole village came to help actually.The villager's themselves did not seem to believe so much in Sarutobi sensei.Besides the plan was to delay the Fox till Minato arives.

Of course the Fourth would say that he trusts Sarutobi.Isn't this exactly the dominant dogma in Konoha?The will of fire?At its core it is an emotional structure and therefore it lacks credibility.


----------



## jimbob631 (Sep 12, 2011)

@Ghost of Madara-I hope you realize the neji cover your using is very likely an editor's writing and not Kishimoto's.  Anything to promote that uchiha are superior to all though am I right?

Also Hiruzen being the strongest hokage means its very likely he does have counters to MS/EMS

@Naru-ichi-Fear not I will have a response tomorrow, I already started but I gotta get some sleep.  Congrats tho, you kept me away from completing my North Atlantic history, silent film, and screenwriting homework


----------



## Ghost of Madara (Sep 12, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> @Ghost of Madara-I hope you realize the neji cover your using is very likely an editor's writing and not Kishimoto's.  Anything to promote that uchiha are superior to all though am I right?
> 
> Also Hiruzen being the strongest hokage means its very likely he does have counters to MS/EMS



Those who wish to jump in on a debate should first know of what they speak.  Literally every statement in the above is composed of logical fallacies and has no relevance to this argument.


----------



## Hasan (Sep 12, 2011)

Helios said:


> The whole village came to help actually.The villager's themselves did not seem to believe so much in Sarutobi sensei.Besides the plan was to delay the Fox till Minato arives.
> 
> Of course the Fourth would say that he trusts Sarutobi.Isn't this exactly the dominant dogma in Konoha?The will of fire?At its core it is an emotional structure and therefore it lacks credibility.



Yes, the whole village fought against the fox. It was Sarutobi & Co who drove it out of the village. The moment Kyuubi was summoned in Konoha, Hiruzen was confident enough to order the ANBU to protect the villagers while _*he handles the fox*_.

Minato knows Hiruzen well and what he's capable of. Hiruzen was ready to counter the second Bijuudama when Minato arrived. This, in no way, says that Sarutobi couldn't have handled the fox himself.


----------



## Helios (Sep 12, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Yes, the whole village fought against the fox. It was Sarutobi & Co who drove it out of the village. The moment Kyuubi was summoned in Konoha, Hiruzen* was confident enough* to order the ANBU to protect the villagers while he handles the fox.
> 
> Minato knows Hiruzen well and what he's capable of. Hiruzen *was ready to counter *the second Bijuudama when Minato arrived. This, in no way, says that Sarutobi couldn't have handled the fox himself.



Honestly does the fact that you have to resort to such kind of arguments to back Sarutobi up not concern you at all?


----------



## Hasan (Sep 12, 2011)

Helios said:


> Honestly does the fact that you have to resort to such kind of arguments to back Sarutobi up not concern you at all?



What are you trying to say? 



_I know! I'll hold it back, gather and protect civilians._



_Not Again...!_

I'm just saying that he was confident enough to take on the fox. 'Not Again...!' notion seems to imply he countered it before.

Resort to such arguments?  I'm just giving Saru the credit he deserves, nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Helios (Sep 12, 2011)

Hasan said:


> What are you trying to say?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What i mean is that there are no satisfying factual evidence.Just statements.


----------



## Hasan (Sep 12, 2011)

Helios said:


> What i mean is that there are no satisfying factual evidence.Just statements.



Ah! I agree. It gives rise to a lot of 'if' scenarios. We seriously need a Hiruzen Gaiden.  But for now, Kishi has left it for our imagination. I mean he has hyped other Kages but he never, even for once, destroyed Hiruzen's hype.


----------



## Lord Stark (Sep 12, 2011)

Sarutobi is the strongest.  I have gone over this several times.  The Databooks all say the same thing.  Minato is the 最大 (Saidai) Hokage.  Which means the greatest, meanwhile Sarutobi is the 最強 (Saikyou) Hokage.  That means the strongest.  Edo Muu is not stronger than Edo Nidaime or Shodai Hokage individually.  Manga fact also states Shodai and Nidaime were hailed as the strongest shinobi _of their era_.  Meaning there is no Shodai or Nidaime more powerful then they are.  It is possible that we can infer that there were Sandaime (Sandaime Raikage, Ooniki of the Twin Scales, and perhaps even the Saidame Kazekage) who were more powerful.  No one in this series bar perhaps Naruto and Sasuke have more raw potential than the Konoha Yellow Flash; The Yondaime Hokage Minato, but alas he never reached his prime.  Thus he never surpassed the Sandaime in raw power.

Furthermore.  Kabuto says nothing about Sarutobi being the strongest because he is the Hokage.  He says that the Hokage is hailed as being the strongest in the 5 great shinobi nations.  That is all.  
Let's review Sarutobi's feats.  While the jutsu he displayed were rather feeble compared to the power inflation of Part II, he did battle against Shodai and Nidaime at the same time for 45 minutes.  That's 3 times as long as Danzou's battle with Sasuke.  Shodai and Nidaime are confirmed to be > Muu, Nidaime Mizukage.  
There is also a statement that Yamato makes which I find rather interesting.  
 believe
"Do not forget that you _exist_ because of our precious sacrifices."
That sounds to me like under Sarutobi, with no Jinnchuriki for Konoha at the time, their military strength>>Kumo's with Kiribi.  
Let's not forget for those who doubt Sarutobi's competency as a Kage that under the Sandaime Hokage Konoha's military strength was undoubtedly the strongest.
Hero's of the last war:
Minato 
Konoha's White Fang
The Sannin
All from Konoha.
In it's prime Konoha had
Minato, Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Hatake Sakumo, Minato, Orochimaru, Kushina all Kage-level or damned close to it.  Also count, the Uchiha Clan, Hyuuga Clan, Akamichi Clan.  
Konoha was at its prime under Sarutobi, it's strongest leader.


----------



## Olympian (Sep 12, 2011)

Helios said:


> Honestly does the fact that you have to resort to such kind of arguments to back Sarutobi up not concern you at all?



Is he lying, though? 

What Sarutobi said, it`s pretty easy to follow. So i don`t see what attacking that line of reasoning gets at.

Fandom needs to get a grip. We know how Edo tensei is. We know Hiruzen was over 70 years old and stated to be weaker because of that, and we know how good the 1st and 2nd were at least suppose to be. 

Even if he fought former shades of those two, he was also fighting Oro. In no way this makes him stronger than everyone at everything, but to massively downplay Hiruzen is rubbish.


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## Kenpachi_Uchiha (Sep 12, 2011)

4th Raikage is how old? 3rd Raikage is how old? Apparently being old doesnt always mean you can be a badass. What's Sarutobi's excuse?


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## Lord Stark (Sep 12, 2011)

Kenpachi_Uchiha said:


> 4th Raikage is how old? 3rd Raikage is how old? Apparently being old doesnt always mean you can be a badass. What's Sarutobi's excuse?



The 4th is Sannin age.  In his prime as a Shinobi.  The Third Raikage is an Edo Tensei, who when he died was likely in his 50s.  Sarutobi was in his late _60s_ and still kicking ass.


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## Olympian (Sep 12, 2011)

Kenpachi_Uchiha said:


> 4th Raikage is how old? 3rd Raikage is how old? Apparently being old doesnt always mean you can be a badass. What's Sarutobi's excuse?



Sarutobi was never an Edo.

He was a living and likely over 60 years old man when he fought Oro and died.


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## Kenpachi_Uchiha (Sep 12, 2011)

Olympian said:


> Sarutobi was never an Edo.
> 
> He was a living and likely over 60 years old man when he fought Oro and died.



Being an Edo doesn't increase the power, but makes it easier to display the power you once held before you died....so 3rd Raikage looking at least in his 50s to 60s had monstrous power still.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 12, 2011)

Kenpachi_Uchiha said:


> Being an Edo doesn't increase the power, but makes it easier to display the power you once held before you died....so 3rd Raikage looking at least in his 50s to 60s had monstrous power still.



He was in his 50s.
Sannin age.


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## Kenpachi_Uchiha (Sep 12, 2011)

Proof and Ill back off.


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## Olympian (Sep 12, 2011)

Kenpachi_Uchiha said:


> Being an Edo doesn't increase the power, but makes it easier to display the power you once held before you died....so 3rd Raikage looking at least in his 50s to 60s had monstrous power still.



It`s not about increasing power. The were younger than Sarutobi when they died, both of them. 12 years before Sarutobi died, he wasen`t Hokage on duty any longer when the Fox stormed the village.


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## Helios (Sep 12, 2011)

Hiruzen was 68 years old.Danzo was 72 and i did not see any problem with his case.


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## Olympian (Sep 12, 2011)

Helios said:


> Hiruzen was 68 years old.Danzo was 72 and i did not see any problem with his case.



What kind of problems are we talking? Danzo never fought two former Hokage plus a Michael Jackson empersonateur.

I am not saying he *needs* to be stronger than Danzo and co, Perhaps in his old age, he wasen`t, as it was cleanly stated by the Anbu about him not being the same shinobi he used to be, but what he did does not strike me as being low level either. Even in part II.

Would old Danzo do much better in the same situation? Maybe. Maybe not.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 12, 2011)

Helios said:


> Hiruzen was 68 years old.Danzo was 72 and i did not see any problem with his case.



the old age thing is an overexeggeration. Perhaps a mistake on Kishi's part.

Chiyo was older than hiruzen and she had tier 4 speed. She seemed more fit than Sakura. And the hag spent all day fishing with her brother.


Danzou was an old fart too and he never complained. But that could be attributed to him possessing Hashirama's cells.



Olympian said:


> What kind of problems are we talking? Danzo never fought two former Hokage plus a Michael Jackson empersonateur.



he fought someone stronger.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 12, 2011)

Kenpachi_Uchiha said:


> Proof and Ill back off.



Assuming the Sandaime's are all the same age.  (Hiruzen 68 at the start of the series.)  The last shinobi war (Third Shinobi war) was about 12-13 years prior to the current events.  (Kakashi 26 at the start of the show, 13 during the Gaiden)
The Sandaime Raikage died during the Third Great Shinobi War, meaning around 13 years before.  At the very least 9 years before the start because we know Ei was Raikage at the time of the Hyuuga affair
He's anywhere from 55-59 years of age.


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## Olympian (Sep 12, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> he fought someone stronger.



Who? Sasuke?

Naw.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 12, 2011)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Sarutobi is the strongest.  I have gone over this several times.  The Databooks all say the same thing.  Minato is the 最大 (Saidai) Hokage.  Which means the greatest, meanwhile Sarutobi is the 最強 (Saikyou) Hokage.  That means the strongest.  Edo Muu is not stronger than Edo Nidaime or Shodai Hokage individually.  Manga fact also states Shodai and Nidaime were hailed as the strongest shinobi _of their era_.  Meaning there is no Shodai or Nidaime more powerful then they are.  It is possible that we can infer that there were Sandaime (Sandaime Raikage, Ooniki of the Twin Scales, and perhaps even the Saidame Kazekage) who were more powerful.  No one in this series bar perhaps Naruto and Sasuke have more raw potential than the Konoha Yellow Flash; The Yondaime Hokage Minato, but alas he never reached his prime.  Thus he never surpassed the Sandaime in raw power.
> 
> Furthermore.  Kabuto says nothing about Sarutobi being the strongest because he is the Hokage.  He says that the Hokage is hailed as being the strongest in the 5 great shinobi nations.  That is all.
> Let's review Sarutobi's feats.  While the jutsu he displayed were rather feeble compared to the power inflation of Part II, he did battle against Shodai and Nidaime at the same time for 45 minutes.  That's 3 times as long as Danzou's battle with Sasuke.  Shodai and Nidaime are confirmed to be > Muu, Nidaime Mizukage.
> ...


Well... I can't disagree with you. Just one correction, though: The Sannin didn't participate in the 3rd Great War, didn't they? Atleast Tsunade didn't, as she left after Dan's and Nawaki's deaths during the 2nd Great War. The same goes for Kakashi's father, he died a few years before Kakashi Gaiden.


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## Helios (Sep 12, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Danzou was an old fart too and he never complained. But that could be attributed to *him possessing Hashirama's cells*.



According to Tobi Hashirama's cells augmented his physical energy something that enabled him to control all these Sharingans.The said DNA is not related to anything else.

Good example the one with Chiyo.I had completely forgotten about her.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 12, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> Well... I can't disagree with you. Just one correction, though: The Sannin didn't participate in the 3rd Great War, didn't they? Atleast Tsunade didn't, as she left after Dan's and Nawaki's deaths during the 2nd Great War. The same goes for Kakashi's father, he died a few years before Kakashi Gaiden.



That's true.  Anime threw me off, they attributed Hanzou and the Sannin's feats to the 3rd.  It was the second.  It doesn't change that Konoha was a monster back in the day.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 12, 2011)

Olympian said:


> Who? Sasuke?
> 
> Naw.



Ms Sasuke vs Hiruzen. battledome naw !


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

If Hiruzen was so strong, why did he look so pathetic during the kyuubi attack when he was in his 50's? The same age that sandaime and yondaime raikage? Same age as Jiraiya and the other sannin? Much much Younger than Chiyo? The guy was utterly pathetic. He could not seal the kyuubi. He could not drive it out of the village. He could not protect the people. He could not do anything. He had to ask fodder to sacrifice until Minato showed up. Pretty pathetic for the supposedly strongest hokage.


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## Olympian (Sep 12, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ms Sasuke vs Hiruzen. battledome naw !



I`ll be there, brotha 



Senjuclan said:


> If Hiruzen was so strong, why did he look so pathetic during the kyuubi attack when he was in his 50's? The same age that sandaime and yondaime raikage? Same age as Jiraiya and the other sannin? Much much Younger than Chiyo? The guy was utterly pathetic. He could not seal the kyuubi. He could not drive it out of the village. He could not protect the people. He could not do anything. He had to ask fodder to sacrifice until Minato showed up. Pretty pathetic for the supposedly strongest hokage.



Trade Hiruzen with each one of those in his place against the Fox. You really see a lot of difference? I mean, really, Chiyo?

And least i recall, he did managed to keep the Fox out of the village, didn`t he?


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

Olympian said:


> I`ll be there, brotha
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually I do. 

1. Jiraiya -- Gamabunta can keep kyuubi down for a minute while Jiraiya applies his bijuu seal on the kyuubi
2. Tsunade -- She may not get rid of the kyuubi but she will protect all the villagers
3. Orochimaru -- Summon shodai and sip coffee while shodai takes care of shit
4. Sandaime raikage -- Use amber purifying pot and seal kyuubi

Chiyo and yondaime raikage would do better than Hiruzen but not as well as the others. See, Hiruzen is fodder


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## Lord Stark (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> If Hiruzen was so strong, why did he look so pathetic during the kyuubi attack when he was in his 50's? The same age that sandaime and yondaime raikage? Same age as Jiraiya and the other sannin? Much much Younger than Chiyo? The guy was utterly pathetic. He could not seal the kyuubi. He could not drive it out of the village. He could not protect the people. He could not do anything. He had to ask fodder to sacrifice until Minato showed up. Pretty pathetic for the supposedly strongest hokage.



He was up against the Kyuubi, 50 percent of the Kyuubi's power and it's still>>>>the other Jinnchuriki, even the Hachibi.  Let's see Ei attempt to Lateral Bolt of Pain the Kyuubi at 50 percent, let alone 100 percent Ying and Yang Kyuubi. 
Let's also not forget that he did manage to drive it back, albeit with the help of the rest of the village.  But from what's implied Hiruzen had at least dealt with one Bijuudama before.  When he says 
'Not again'.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> He was up against the Kyuubi, 50 percent of the Kyuubi's power and it's still>>>>the other Jinnchuriki, even the Hachibi.  Let's see Ei attempt to Lateral Bolt of Pain the Kyuubi at 50 percent, let alone 100 percent Ying and Yang Kyuubi.
> Let's also not forget that he did manage to drive it back, albeit with the help of the rest of the village.  But from what's implied Hiruzen had at least dealt with one Bijuudama before.  When he says
> 'Not again'.



1. No such thing was implied. The only thing that was implied was that kyuubi used a bijuudama. 
2. See my post above yours


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## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't know anything about Prime Hiruzen, but I do know that during the time Hiruzen ruled Konoha, the village was at its strongest ever. During his time, he had Minato, Kushina, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Tsunade, Sakumo, Gai, Kakashi and Uchiha Clan.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 12, 2011)

Imma w8 patiently for Hiruzen to get his well deserved feats cause if he lives up to his reputation of knowing and being able to perform the majority of jutsus known in Konoha...even in the slightest...he will be one of the most haxx characters.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> Actually I do.
> 
> 1. Jiraiya -- Gamabunta can keep kyuubi down for a minute while Jiraiya applies his bijuu seal on the kyuubi


5 Element seal is used on top of another seal.  No proof it'd work against the full Kyuubi.


> 2. Tsunade -- She may not get rid of the kyuubi but she will protect all the villagers


No...I doubt it.  One Bijuu Dama and Katsuyu and Tsunade will be blown to bits.  


> 3. Orochimaru -- Summon shodai and sip coffee while shodai takes care of shit


That's all fine and good.  But you forget the only 4 people _in shinobi history_ who could control the Bijuu were Hashirama Madara Yagura and Kiribi.  Yagura is questionable.


> 4. Sandaime raikage -- Use amber purifying pot and seal kyuubi


We don't know how the pot works. 
"Because the pot sealed the 8 tails it'll be able to seal the 9 tails at 100 percent." That my friend is no limits fallacy.  We also don't know how the pot works.  


> Chiyo and yondaime raikage would do better than Hiruzen but not as well as the others. See, Hiruzen is fodder


Why? Because you said so?
Chiyo's puppets would be swatted away.  And the Yondaime Raikage would die after 1 Bijuu dama


Senjuclan said:


> 1. No such thing was implied. The only thing that was implied was that kyuubi used a bijuudama.
> 2. See my post above yours


Then why would he say not again?  He didn't see the first one get repelled, he was suiting up for battle.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> 5 Element seal is used on top of another seal.  No proof it'd work against the full Kyuubi.



Who said I was speaking of the five element seal bro? I was speaking of the chakra seal? You know that seal he gave to Kakashi to seal the kyuubi's chakra if Naruto transformed



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> No...I doubt it.  One Bijuu Dama and Katsuyu and Tsunade will be blown to bits.



I doubt that too. Chou shira tensei caused as much damage as a bijuu dama



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> That's all fine and good.  But you forget the only 4 people _in shinobi history_ who could control the Bijuu were Hashirama Madara Yagura and Kiribi.  Yagura is questionable.



Does not change what I said. If Orochimaru was hokage, he would be sipping coffee with the rest of the village while the kyuubi is taken care of. Hell, if the nidaime was still hokage the same thing would be done



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> We don't know how the pot works.
> "Because the pot sealed the 8 tails it'll be able to seal the 9 tails at 100 percent." That my friend is no limits fallacy.  We also don't know how the pot works.



LOL. It is more likely than not to seal the kyuubi. Even if it sealed 8 tail worth of the kyuubi chakra, the rest of the kyuubi would be so weak that the rest of the village would defeat it



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Why? Because you said so?
> Chiyo's puppets would be swatted away.  And the Yondaime Raikage would die after 1 Bijuu dama



Sure. Yondaime raikage would stand there and wait for the bijuu dama to hit him. LOL. Let's just forget how insanely fast he is. The reason I say they would do better is because they have better feats than hiruzen. With the same level of help, they should do better



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Then why would he say not again?  He didn't see the first one get repelled, he was suiting up for battle.



He said not again because kyuubi was getting ready to use the bijuu dama not because he had repelled the first one.


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## Olympian (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> Actually I do.
> 
> 1. Jiraiya -- Gamabunta can keep kyuubi down for a minute while Jiraiya applies his bijuu seal on the kyuubi
> 
> ...



I can see you are being really serious with this answer. Tsunade, Chiyo and Oro. 

Yes, sir.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> Who said I was speaking of the five element seal bro? I was speaking of the chakra seal? You know that seal he gave to Kakashi to seal the kyuubi's chakra if Naruto transformed


You do remember how Jiraiya got destroyed by 4 tails naruto right?  I'd love to see him try sealing up the 100 percent 9 tailed beast.  




> I doubt that too. Chou shira tensei caused as much damage as a bijuu dama


That's a lie.  A Bijuudama from a bijuu much weaker than Kyuubi was a mountain buster.  CST is a town buster.  




> Does not change what I said. If Orochimaru was hokage, he would be sipping coffee with the rest of the village while the kyuubi is taken care of. Hell, if the nidaime was still hokage the same thing would be done


With prep.  Sandaime also had no prep.




> LOL. It is more likely than not to seal the kyuubi. Even if it sealed 8 tail worth of the kyuubi chakra, the rest of the kyuubi would be so weak that the rest of the village would defeat it



Uhh no. 
27
This is the difference between half and full Kyuubi and yet even the half of Kyuubi's chakra sealed within Naruto vastly surpasses
the full Hachibi.  Even if the pot seals half the Kyuubi away you are still left with the single greatest chakra monster in the Narutoverse sans the Juubi.


> Sure. Yondaime raikage would stand there and wait for the bijuu dama to hit him. LOL. Let's just forget how insanely fast he is. The reason I say they would do better is because they have better feats than hiruzen. With the same level of help, they should do better


AOE is massive.  Raikage won't be able to shushin no jutsu away from that one.



> He said not again because kyuubi was getting ready to use the bijuu dama not because he had repelled the first one.



No he said not again because he likely countered the second one and didn't have a lot of energy to counter the next one.


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> You do remember how Jiraiya got destroyed by 4 tails naruto right?  I'd love to see him try sealing up the 100 percent 9 tailed beast.



LOL. You do remember how Gamabunta kept 100% of kyuubi in check for a couple of minutes while Minato transported him, right? Well, the same Gamabunta can be used and the kyuubi sealed



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> That's a lie.  A Bijuudama from a bijuu much weaker than Kyuubi was a mountain buster.  CST is a town buster.



Do you think a power that destroys an entire village would not destroy a mountain? 



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> With prep.  Sandaime also had no prep.



What prep. Once summoned, edo tensei can be summoned on and off any time




Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Uhh no.
> 27
> This is the difference between half and full Kyuubi and yet even the half of Kyuubi's chakra sealed within Naruto vastly surpasses
> the full Hachibi.  Even if the pot seals half the Kyuubi away you are still left with the single greatest chakra monster in the Narutoverse sans the Juubi.



How do you determine that half the kyuubi surpasses the hachibi again?



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> AOE is massive.  Raikage won't be able to shushin no jutsu away from that one.



Sure. Because we have not seen ninjas shunshin across the area of a mountain, right?



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> No he said not again because he likely countered the second one and didn't have a lot of energy to counter the next one.



That is bullshit. He was reacting to the kyuubi using the bijuu dama. 

1. We see kyuubi form a bijuu dama
2. Sandaime says not again

So, not what again? Not what the kyuubi is about to do. What is kyuubi about to do? Fire a bijuu dama. The rest of what you are saying is not logical and not implied in the sentence.


----------



## Hasan (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> That is bullshit. He was reacting to the kyuubi using the bijuu dama.
> 
> 1. We see kyuubi form a bijuu dama
> 2. Sandaime says not again
> ...



Yes, he was reaction to the Bijuu. 'Not _again_' only implies that Kyuubi fired a bijuudama before and it's only logical to assume Hiruzen countered it.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Sep 12, 2011)

Turrin said:


> And I'm saying Kishi could have given Hiruzen as flashy Jutsu to build up his hype in Part I, considering that he did exactly that with Itachi in Part I.



Except Itachi's introduction in part I was to set a new level of threat, one that even Orochimaru feared. 
As for Hiruzen not having much flashy stuff; he simply not that important. He does not hold the plot importance such as Itachi or being main villain for whole part I like Orochimaru

Hiruzen hype were not the jutsus he displayed, but the statements made about him. 



> When it comes to Hashirama a 10% clone is being generous considering what we know about living Hashirama, I.E. having multiple Bijuu under his command, able to create a Mokuton forest the size of the Kyuubi, and having defeated EMS Madara.
> 
> When it comes to Tobirama a 10% clone also seems generous considering that he when alive he was able to hold of the entire Kinkaku force by himself



So Hiruzen fought ET's less then 10% skills of the originals 
I hardly doubt Kishi would actually intend such a power scale with Nidame & Shodai when Oro summoned them
As for Hashirama making a forest full of Mokuton: who cares? Itachi was able to set half the Uchiha dome on fire with Amaterasu, does it matter much when fighting an opponent; hardly. Same for Hashirama, unless he plans on fighting BOSS sized summons I don't see why the scale of his Mokutons is important. Hiruzen defended himself with Enma's cage form anyway. Also Hashirama was limited due to the Violet Flame Barrier
As for Nidaime taking on the Kinkaku Force. The only notable shinobi were Gin/Kin. The other were no doubt other Jonin level or something, or perhaps even some members specific for tracking and scouting. Either way, manga has implied Gin/Kin were the "real opponents" for Nidaime. Also from statements from Gin/Kin they were beating his ass hard 



> Dude Orochimaru didn't attack Hiruzen, even once, the entire time that Hiruzen was fighting the ET Hokage. That's why I said Orochimaru didn't do shit, because he literally didn't do anything the entire battle against the ET Hokage except stand their and occasionally defend.



Chapter 280

3 pages or Old Hiruzen being a BOSS . Orochimaru literally looked like shit when his ET's were gone

But you're right that Oro merely defended when it was actually Shodai & Nidaime that did the attacking. 

As for Hiruzen vs the ET. It was hardly a battle. There was a short ninjutsu exchange, in which Hiruzen barely got by and had to summon Enma
A short taijutsu exchange in which he got beat (but still managed to set spell traps on their legs)

And after that Hiruzen immediately knew that this would led to nothing so his only choice was Shiki Fuin



> I'm not saying he was doing it for the lolz, I'm saying we don't know if his counter would have worked, since there are plenty of times in this manga where a Shinobi tries to counter another Shinobi's Jutsu and fails.





Chapter 280

How can you even doubt this? Hiruzen sees the caskets, knows who they are and starts forming seals for the third one. Hiruzen already *recognised* the jutsus and *knew* who were in the coffins before they opened
And you doubt that could stop the summoning? He even mentions that he was able to stop the third one (although Minato could be summoned anyway)

This is not an example of a shinobi *trying* to counter a jutsu. Hiruzen *knows* what the jutsu entails



> I have never seen a description of the Jutsu Hiruzen tries to stop ET with in the DBs, I'd be interested in seeing it if it actually exists.



So am I. I'll get back to you for this one. Need some other people for this



> 1. The Genjutsu stat measures knowledge and proficiency. Hiruzen could have a 5 simply due to knowledge, rather than proficiency. Now I agree with a 5 he probably has a some Genjutsu techniques, but where is the proof that any of these Genjutsu techniques would work or be enough to defeat a Kage Class Shinobi like Muu? The answer is you have none because we haven't seen Hiruzen use a single Genjutsu in the manga.
> 
> 2. Hiruzen is not going to be able to dodge Onoki's attacks with his 3 in speed
> 
> ...



So here you doubt Hiruzen would stand a chance against any Kage based on battledome logic



> Fixed and according to reputation he is.



Yet manga states that he _is_ or _was_ able to

That being said, Kabuto's statement applied more to Hiruzen in general as Hokage then Old Hirzen. Because nobody knew how much he declined (not even Hiruzen himself until he started battling), so I hardly doubt Kabuto knew



> So again your saying that reputation can be wrong and are arguing that it is based on your interpretation of the portrayal of Jiriaya, Oro, and Itachi. So tell me why its so hard to believe that Old Hiruzen's reputation is wrong considering* the portrayal of Old Hiruzen vs the Kage* that he was suppose to be stronger than?



Old Hiruzen did _nothing_ wrong. He battled 2 ET's who were clearly > him. He barely survived ninjutsu exchange and got beat at CQC. After this he immediately went Shiki Fuin. Why would he battle further if he couldn't damage them/win against them anyway? The fact that he was able to seal them at all is still impressive and after that he went after Oro and almost got him too.
And don't say Orochimaru was playing around, because after his ET's were gone, Orochimaru got serious. The dude started to see how serious Hiruzen was and how he underestimated him and payed for it dearly

So to me there is not much wrong with Hiruzens rep. I do believe he is up there with Shodai & Minato (not saying he is superior). And even at Old age he was still impressive



> Originally Posted by *ShounenSuki *
> Iruka, Ch.94
> 「三代目は　特に歴代の中でも最強と言われポロフェッサーと呼ばれた天才だったんだぞ！」
> "The sandaime, in particular, was a genius nicknamed the 'Professor,' and *was **called* the strongest of all the Hokage".​
> ...



I can see Hiruzen being in EMS Madara's league. Espicially now that the power scaling has moved up again

Madara has reached new height with his Rinnegan/Sharingan. And there is still a level above this: Rikudou Sennin level, which Madara will also achieve

So currently I see 2 "levels" above EMS Madara/Shodai/Minato

One currently that holds people like Rinnegan Madara, possibly Kabuto, Naruto and Sasuke after they achieve a power up during their final fight (something that makes them resemble Elder brother/Younger brother

And final level that hold Rikudou Sennins skill set. Only Madara will achieve this and most likely Naruto


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Yes, he was reaction to the Bijuu. 'Not _again_' only implies that Kyuubi fired a bijuudama before and it's only logical to assume Hiruzen countered it.



It is illogical to assume HIRUZEN countered it. It is more logical to assume the VILLAGE of Konoha countered it


----------



## Hasan (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> It is illogical to assume HIRUZEN countered it. It is more logical to assume the VILLAGE of Konoha countered it



Yeah but Hiruzen seems the more capable one.


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Yeah but Hiruzen seems the more capable one.



To you maybe but not to me. At any rate, it looks like you and I have found an agreement. Hiruzen alone could not deal with the kyuubi. Great


----------



## Lord Stark (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> LOL. You do remember how Gamabunta kept 100% of kyuubi in check for a couple of minutes while Minato transported him, right? Well, the same Gamabunta can be used and the kyuubi sealed


A couple of minutes? It was a panel.  Gamabunta kept Shukkaku busy for a couple of minutes.  Gama kept him busy for a few seconds.  Again, no proof Jiraiya can seal the Kyuubi's full power.




> Do you think a power that destroys an entire village would not destroy a mountain?



CST is not a mountain buster.  Try again.



> What prep. Once summoned, edo tensei can be summoned on and off any time


You need prep in order to summon them in the first place though.





> How do you determine that half the kyuubi surpasses the hachibi again?


Hype, the fact that Naruto is the main character so of course his beast is the strongest.  And Hachibi hasn't demonstrated the ability to perform Chou Bijuudama.  



> Sure. Because we have not seen ninjas shunshin across the area of a mountain, right?


No.  We haven't aside from space time ninjutsu.  



> That is bullshit. He was reacting to the kyuubi using the bijuu dama.
> 
> 1. We see kyuubi form a bijuu dama
> 2. Sandaime says not again
> ...



This thought pattern is very convoluted.  Please reorganize your thoughts and post it again.  I honestly cannot respond to that.


----------



## Reddan (Sep 12, 2011)

Turrin said:


> And this is based on what exactly?


The second Fanbook confirms that Madara did not have his phasing jutsu or teleportation when he fought Hashirama.

Amaterasu is constantly referred to as just Itachi's technique. Very knowledgeable shinobi like Jiraiya and Kakashi had no clue about its existence.

The same with Susano'o not even Madara's right hand man, Zetsu, knew about it. Madara fought Hashirama with eveything he had several times. The techniques he used would have been famous.


> He brings up Madara's power not the Bijuu's. Onoki, _"with your power"_.  The clear point of that entire scene was to indicate that currently Madara was not as powerful as he was when he faced Hashirama, hence Madara's response that he's, _"little more than a shell of my former self."_


Statements need to put into the context of what happened. 
*"Yeh I can't even imagine the strength he has amassed by capturing the 7 of the Bijuu."*


> Itachi beat Orochimaru and is stronger than Orochimaru. Itachi and Kisame indicate that Jiriaya is roughly around the same "level" as Itachi, yes I know you'll probably disagree and i'm not here to debate that i'm just using this to show that at best Jiriaya is roughly around Itachi's "level".
> 
> Itachi clearly states that he needs EMS to surpass Madara. Considering Itachi used the present tense, he is probably referring to current Madara who is much weaker than EMS Madara, but even if we assume he was referring to EMS Madara it would mean he could only surpass EMS Madara by obtaining an EMS of his own, which in turn means that Itachi at the very best is as strong as EMS Madara and its stated that Hashirama is stronger than EMS Madara.


Itachi was clearly lying. He was a spy and had a hidden agenda. Orochimaru and all the Sannin have been said to be on the same level time and time again. Itachi thrashed Orochimaru.

Not only that, but SM Naruto was stronger than Jiraiya. RM Naruto was much stronger than Jiraiay. Itachi showed he was around that level and far superior to SM Jiraiya.

Further more SM Naruto was around equal to MS Sasuke. Like I said before SM Naruto was stronger than Jiraiya, whilst Itachi was stronger than MS Sasuke.

Itachi was not speaking the entire truth. He said that he needed MS to surpass current Madara, who still had the EMS and the powers of the Senju. Never once did he say he needed EMS to surpass the old Madara. He made a point of saying Madara still had the EMS.

Not only that, but he deduced Madara was immortal just like Tsunade did. He even called him the ultimate shinobi. Itachi was comparing his power to the current Madara and not the one, who lost to Sasuke.


> So everything in the manga indicates Hashirama > Jiriaya, Orochimaru, and Itachi and personally I don't see anything that would indicate any of them are stronger than him.


Not really the story indicates a general progress of power. Hiruzen surpassed his teachers, who in return was surpassed by his students. The Minato came along and was surpassed by the Sannin, followed by Itachi. After Itachi came Sasuke and Naruto.


> When it comes to Tobirama, the only way Tobirama could have surpassed him is after Hashirama's death, but that seems highly unlikely based on Hashirama's hype as the strongest Senju ever, whose DNA everyone is after not Tobirama's. So honestly I see nothing that indicates Tobirama is stronger and everything seems to indicate he is not.


This is not completely true. Kabuto has confirmed that Orochimaru's special DNA and chakra is needed to have a better control of Edo Tensei. Consequently his chakra is probably special too.


> They did not show Suiton on the same level. None of them have created such a large Suiton w/o a water source.


Not true at all. The Suitons they created were about the same size. Kakashi' may have been slightly smaller than the other two.
Tobirama's
Kakashi's
Darui's


> The fact that so far Sandaime Raikage has shown a greater offense and defense than his son between his natural endurance, Raiton Armor, Four Finger Hell Bringer, and the fact that he commanded the 5th treasure. All that and we still haven't seen his black lightning yet.


Does not matter since the fifth treasure is useless since A knows how it works and can use it himself. After all it was in his possession. His son is much faster and possess devastating Nintaijutsu attacks, which would probably finish his father over time. As Minato has demonstrated. If you are too fast to be hit then you are going to win.


> I doubt B could land a hit on him to absorb his chakra with Samehada and we already know that Sandaime Raikage can defeat B's strongest form with only a minor scar to show for it. So I'm not going to say Sandaime Raikage's is for sure stronger than B, but I doubt B has surpassed him ether.


LOL B is fast enough to counter Hiraishin. He has speed at the same level as Sasuke. Sasuke can easily counter Level 1 Lightning shroud, which is all Sandaime Raikage has shown. Even ignoring that fact, Samehada is incredibly fast itself and was able to react to V2 Bee. Samehada would have no problem draining the Raikage.


> Sure their are examples of the younger generation surpassing the older generation, but this clearly does not apply to everyone, I can list the various examples if you want.


It applies to the majority and it is the message Kishimoto wants to send out.


> You can't say Rikudo-Sannin is the exception, if their is an exception than the rule does not always apply and therefore can not be used in a credible debate.


No, because Rikoudo Sannin was the one, who started the ninja age. He was the beginning. One outlier does not mean there is a general rule in place.


> Kishi stated that the Younger Generation surpasses the Older Generation, that statement merely means the Younger Generation as a whole > Older Generation as a whole, it does not mean that every member of the younger generation surpasses their older generation counter part, that's something you and most of the forum add to the text, which is not present.
> 
> My model which I explained in my last post, makes more sense than yours since it doesn't rely on adding shit to the text and their are no exceptions or contradictions.


Of course not every generation of the Younger will surpass their Older Generation counterpart. However, the Chunin of the New Generation will be stronger than the last, the Jounin stronger than the ones before, the kages stronger than the previous, and the elites even stronger than those before them.


Senjuclan said:


> I would like to butt in for a minute
> Itachi said that Madara was the strongest Uchiha, the strongest Uchiha with EMS must have mastered mangekyou sharingan, which means he has three jutsu not one


Itachi was talking present tense about Madara, who stole Hashirama cells, gained teleportation, phasing ability and still has his EMS somewhere.

Shishui had the MS and only had one jutsu. The only jutsu associated with Madara is genjutsu and being able to summon the Kybui. The sharingan requires Senju powers to maximise it's power, which Madara at the VOTE did not have.


> How can one be the strongest Uchiha and not master mangekyou sharingan? If he mastered mangekyou sharingan, he has susano'o. It is pretty clear that he had tsukuyomi as well since he plans to use it


VOTE Madara was not the strongest Uchiha. I doubt he was stronger than even Shishui. If he had Susano'o then the world would know about it. Every other jutsu is famous. Everyone knows about Edo Tensei, Hydra, SM Mode, Hiraishin etc. If Madara used Susano'o or Amaterasu then people would know about it.


> False. Oonoki said with your strength, you can accomplish anything. This is the strength of his sharingan. When he talks about him a second time, he mentions Madara's sharingan


Nope he quite clearly says the power Madara has amassed due to collecting the 7 Biju is unimaginable.

The second quote is about his ability to use genjutsu. Madara has praise for two things 
1. Genjutsu
2. Summoning Kybui.
Nothing else.


> Actualy, it looks like you are the one who needs to read the chapter again


No read the chapter again and you find out why Onoki thinks Madara is so powerful at the moment.


----------



## Olympian (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> It is illogical to assume HIRUZEN countered it. It is more logical to assume the VILLAGE of Konoha countered it



How it is illogical when Hiruzen was on the lead? He was the only actually named by the author as that powerful among that squad that was facing the Fox.


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> A couple of minutes? It was a panel.  Gamabunta kept Shukkaku busy for a couple of minutes.  Gama kept him busy for a few seconds.  Again, no proof Jiraiya can seal the Kyuubi's full power.



I am tired of arguing someone who does not read what I say. I never mentioned shukaku. This is the second time where you respond to stuff I did not mention



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> CST is not a mountain buster.  Try again.



And you know this how? Please do tell. Actually, scratch that do not tell




Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> You need prep in order to summon them in the first place though.



Once he has summoned them once, he can summon them on and off. I think my point remains. I have no desire to keep this up



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Hype, the fact that Naruto is the main character so of course his beast is the strongest.  And Hachibi hasn't demonstrated the ability to perform Chou Bijuudama.



You mean, you made it up. Great. Moving on 




Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> No.  We haven't aside from space time ninjutsu.



Maybe you need to reread Sasuke vs. Kirabi



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> This thought pattern is very convoluted.  Please reorganize your thoughts and post it again.  I honestly cannot respond to that.



You know that is bullshit. I actually made it pretty clear for you. At any rate, I am not sure that keeping this up makes sense. I would rather argue other people bro



arednad said:


> Itachi was talking present tense about Madara, who stole Hashirama cells, gained teleportation, phasing ability and still has his EMS somewhere.



1. Actually, Itachi did not know about Hashirama's abilities. Madara never used any jutsu in front of akatsuki (according to Kishi himself) except his phasing. 
2. Plus, when Itachi Madara is an invincible immortal, he pictures old Madara not Tobi. So, it is quite clear he was referring to Madara not Tobi



arednad said:


> Shishui had the MS and only had one jutsu. The only jutsu associated with Madara is genjutsu and being able to summon the Kybui. The sharingan requires Senju powers to maximise it's power, which Madara at the VOTE did not have.



1. Bullshit. We have not seen Shisui in battle to know how many jutsu his MS afforded him. We have seen one of his jutsu and that is all. 
2. Controlling the kyuubi is a common MS ability. Read Sasuke's entry in the databook about controlling Manda



arednad said:


> VOTE Madara was not the strongest Uchiha. I doubt he was stronger than even Shishui. If he had Susano'o then the world would know about it. Every other jutsu is famous. Everyone knows about Edo Tensei, Hydra, SM Mode, Hiraishin etc. If Madara used Susano'o or Amaterasu then people would know about it.



1. Itachi thinks he is the strongest. He pictured him and called him invincible immortal
2. I guess you have interviewed the narutoverse and they told you that they did not know Madara had susano'o, right? LOL



arednad said:


> Nope he quite clearly says the power Madara has amassed due to collecting the 7 Biju is unimaginable.



Dude, last panel on the left he says with YOUR strength you can accomplish any plan. NOWHERE does he say the shit you attribute to him



arednad said:


> The second quote is about his ability to use genjutsu. Madara has praise for two things
> 1. Genjutsu
> 2. Summoning Kybui.
> Nothing else.



So? Does this mean he is limited to those two? Hardly. It just means that he is not developped as of yet. Kishi himself says so in the databook



arednad said:


> No read the chapter again and you find out why Onoki thinks Madara is so powerful at the moment.



I read the chapter. I attached the page. Can you do the same? Of course not



Olympian said:


> How it is illogical when Hiruzen was on the lead? He was the only actually named by the author as that powerful among that squad that was facing the Fox.



It is illogical to credit him alone when you don't know the extent of his contribution. Let's say he was leading them and contributed 20% while the rest of the village did 80% of the work and no one shinobi besides him did more than 5% of the work. It is wrong to give him 100% for 20% of the work. Get my point?


----------



## Hasan (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> So? Does this mean he is limited to those two? Hardly. It just means that he is not developped as of yet. Kishi himself says so in the databook



You know, the same can be said for Hiruzen.


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

Hasan said:


> You know, the same can be said for Hiruzen.



Of course. I think Hiruzen is stronger than what we have seen in the manga. I just simply doubt that he is the strongest because that hype has been supplanted by Minato's hype. Without bijuu, without shiny eyes, without space-time ninjutsu, without edo tensei tensei, I don't think Hiruzen could have been that strong. Now, I don't think he was as weak as say Tsunade () but he was strong nonetheless


----------



## Reddan (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Actually, Itachi did not know about Hashirama's abilities. Madara never used any jutsu in front of akatsuki (according to Kishi himself) except his phasing.
> 2. Plus, when Itachi Madara is an invincible immortal, he pictures old Madara not Tobi. So, it is quite clear he was referring to Madara not Tobi


1. Itachi already confirmed he knows more about Akatsuki than Nagato. He already knows how Senju DNA helps power up the sharingan.
2. He never once said Madara was invincible. He said he was immortal, which Tsunade comes to the same conclusion. She does so after finding out he has the DNA of Hashirama. 


> 1. Bullshit. We have not seen Shisui in battle to know how many jutsu his MS afforded him. We have seen one of his jutsu and that is all.
> 2. Controlling the kyuubi is a common MS ability. Read Sasuke's entry in the databook about controlling Manda


1. We have seen what both Shishui's eye could offer and they are both genjutsu. 
2. Yes, but being able to summon the Kyubi is quite different and that is what Madara is specifically famous for.


> 1. Itachi thinks he is the strongest. He pictured him and called him invincible immortal
> 2. I guess you have interviewed the narutoverse and they told you that they did not know Madara had susano'o, right? LOL


1. Itachi never called him invincible. You are quoting a poor translation. He only confirmed Madara was immortal.
2. No it is obvious from the fact, that ninjas are surprised when they see Susano'o and the only comparison it has it with Itachi's.


> Dude, last panel on the left he says with YOUR strength you can accomplish any plan. NOWHERE does he say the shit you attribute to him


Read the OFFICIAL Version.
sharingan


> So? Does this mean he is limited to those two? Hardly. It just means that he is not developped as of yet. Kishi himself says so in the databook


No, but they are his two storngest jutsu and what he was famous for. It is telling that no one mentions Amaterasu or Susano'o. Those techniques are associated solely with Itachi/Sasuke.


> I read the chapter. I attached the page. Can you do the same? Of course not


Already have.
sharingan


----------



## Turrin (Sep 12, 2011)

arednad said:


> The second Fanbook confirms that Madara did not have his phasing jutsu or teleportation when he fought Hashirama.


I know this I was referring to Ama and Susano'o



> Amaterasu is constantly referred to as just Itachi's technique. Very knowledgeable shinobi like Jiraiya and Kakashi had no clue about its existence.


No its not, even the DB indicates that other Shinobi have learned Amaterasu:

_"However, the MangekyouSharingan is necessary to activate this jutsu, and for this reason there are* not many who* have learned this jutsu."_

It doesn't say only 1 it says not many which indicates more than 1 and the only prerequisite is MS. 



> The same with Susano'o not even Madara's right hand man, Zetsu, knew about it. Madara fought Hashirama with eveything he had several times. The techniques he used would have been famous.


Zetsu didn't know about a-lot of things, this is hardly confirmation Madara didn't have Susano'o. 



> Statements need to put into the context of what happened.


I put the statement into context and the context was that Madara is weaker now than he once was. Your pulling a statement that happened pages later and saying that was the context.



> Itachi was clearly lying. He was a spy and had a hidden agenda. Orochimaru and all the Sannin have been said to be on the same level time and time again. Itachi thrashed Orochimaru.
> 
> Not only that, but SM Naruto was stronger than Jiraiya. RM Naruto was much stronger than Jiraiay. Itachi showed he was around that level and far superior to SM Jiraiya.
> 
> Further more SM Naruto was around equal to MS Sasuke. Like I said before SM Naruto was stronger than Jiraiya, whilst Itachi was stronger than MS Sasuke.


Like I said i'm not here to debate this. My sole point was that at best Jiriaya = Itachi.



> Itachi was not speaking the entire truth. He said that he needed MS to surpass current Madara, who still had the EMS and the powers of the Senju. Never once did he say he needed EMS to surpass the old Madara. He made a point of saying Madara still had the EMS.
> 
> Not only that, but he deduced Madara was immortal just like Tsunade did. He even called him the ultimate shinobi. Itachi was comparing his power to the current Madara and not the one, who lost to Sasuke.


And current Madara is much weaker than EMS Madara, so yeah.



> Not really the story indicates a general progress of power. Hiruzen surpassed his teachers, who in return was surpassed by his students. The Minato came along and was surpassed by the Sannin, followed by Itachi. After Itachi came Sasuke and Naruto.


If Hiruzen is actually stronger than Hashirama than he is clearly stronger than any of the Sannin individually.



> Not true at all. The Suitons they created were about the same size. Kakashi' may have been slightly smaller than the other two.


look at the next page:

sharingan

Tobirama's suiton is about the size of Hiruzen's Doton Wall which is larger than any of suitons that Darui or Kakashi produced.



> Does not matter since the fifth treasure is useless since A knows how it works and can use it himself. After all it was in his possession. His son is much faster and possess devastating Nintaijutsu attacks, which would probably finish his father over time. As Minato has demonstrated. If you are too fast to be hit then you are going to win.


Are we discussing who is a better/stronger Ninja or who would win in a fight between an A and Sandaime Raikage? Because if its the latter considering that Sandaime Raikage tanked FRS w/o a scratch A doesn't have anyway to even damage him, so he looses hands down.



> LOL B is fast enough to counter Hiraishin. He has speed at the same level as Sasuke. Sasuke can easily counter Level 1 Lightning shroud, which is all Sandaime Raikage has shown. Even ignoring that fact, Samehada is incredibly fast itself and was able to react to V2 Bee. Samehada would have no problem draining the Raikage.


When has Samehada even shown it can absorb internal chakra w/o directly latching onto that person? This is what I doubt Samehada would be able to. Sandaime Raikage should be fast enough where Samehada doesn't get the chance to latch onto him the way it did with B when it absorbs his chakra. 

Anyway perhaps B can win and perhaps he can't, I think we need to see more to decide.



> It applies to the majority and it is the message Kishimoto wants to send out.


No it really doesn't.



> No, because Rikoudo Sannin was the one, who started the ninja age. He was the beginning. One outlier does not mean there is a general rule in place.


Its means that your argument is not credible though



> Of course not every generation of the Younger will surpass their Older Generation counterpart. However, the Chunin of the New Generation will be stronger than the last, the Jounin stronger than the ones before, the kages stronger than the previous, and the elites even stronger than those before them.


Again your still adding words to the text, nothing says that each generation of Jonin > old generation of Jonin, all the text says is overall. So  Generation 1 Jonin could be stronger than Generation 2, but Generation 2 is overall better because the Hokage and Chuunin/Genin are stronger. 

So really you can't use Younger Generation > Older Generation to say anyone is stronger than anyone else the way that your trying to use it.


----------



## shintebukuro (Sep 12, 2011)

Arednad said:
			
		

> Itachi was talking present tense about Madara, who stole Hashirama cells, gained teleportation, phasing ability and still has his EMS somewhere.



Why would Itachi take the majority of the chapter to explain EMS, and then say that a current and different Madara, one which Sasuke has zero knowledge of his powers, is the one that is stronger than himself? 

And what makes you think Itachi knew about the nature of his powers? 



> VOTE Madara was not the strongest Uchiha. I doubt he was stronger than even Shishui.



Your only evidence to claim such nonsense is the "new gen > old gen" concept which you've misinterpreted.

Claiming EMS Madara was weaker than Shisui and not the strongest Uchiha just makes me speechless.


----------



## Reddan (Sep 12, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> Why would Itachi take the majority of the chapter to explain EMS, and then say that a current and different Madara, one which Sasuke has zero knowledge of his powers, is the one that is stronger than himself?
> 
> And what makes you think Itachi knew about the nature of his powers?


Itachi was setting up Sasuke to kill Madara. He told him Madara was his accomplice knowing full well Sasuke would go after him. He wanted to inform Sasuke about the powers, how to gain EMS and just how strong he would need to be to take out the CURRENT threat.

Itachi knows about Nagaot and the powers of the Sage. Itachi knows about how the Senju DNA helps improve the sharingan. Itachi knows that Madara is immortal. 


> Your only evidence to claim such nonsense is the "new gen > old gen" concept which you've misinterpreted.
> 
> Claiming EMS Madara was weaker than Shisui and not the strongest Uchiha just makes me speechless.


No evidence comes from Shishui having the best genjutsu and being the best user of the Shunshin jutsu. The new generation surpassing the old is another reason.


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## Turrin (Sep 12, 2011)

@hitokugutsu

Basically what this comes down to is that Old Hiruzen has not shown himself to be superior to Yondaime Kazekage, Madara, Yondaime Raikage, and Onoki as his reputation indicates. We have seen that reputation can be exaggerated in this manga, the legendary sannin's and Hanzo's reputation being prime examples of this. Now I'm saying that I believe Old Hiruzen's reputation was also in correct. There are good reasons for it being incorrect too, considering that even Hiruzen himself didn't know how much his strength had decreased due to age, so how would these random shinobi giving him his rep as the strongest Kage know this? Also no one but the mist knew that someone was actually controlling Yagura and even less people actually knew that person was Madara, so how would the random people giving Hiruzen his rep actually properly evaluate Old Hiruzen's strength against Madara's who they didn't even know was alive.

Now maybe there was a time when Hiruzen was less effected by age where his rep would make sense, but I do not believe it makes sense for the time that Kabuto stated, I.E. referring to the Hiruzen that Orochimaru fought. The Hiruzen Orochimaru fought to me is the weakest of the Kage, based on how powerful the Kages have shown themselves to be and how much age was shown to effect Hiruzen, which again no one, even Hiruzen himself, knew would effect him to such a degree until the actual battle itself.

Now you can say that you are going to ignore all this and just go with Hiruzen's rep, but that seems pretty hypocritical considering that you evaluate outside factors when it comes to Jiriaya's rep, but if your going to do that than there is not much more for me to say to you except we'll have to agree to disagree until more information comes to light.

As for a Prime Hiruzen or a younger Hiruzen than the one that faced Orochimaru being stronger than the 5 Kages or being stronger than Hashirama and Tobirama, Idk since we haven't seen that Hiruzen fight, but as the chapter go by Hashirama keeps getting more hype and importance, which to me makes it seem less and less likely that Hiruzen will actually prove himself to be stronger than him, but at least in this case I feel like his rep has a chance of being true.

Anyway that's pretty much all I have to say on the subject.


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## Sniffers (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't really think it's hard to believe that Sarutobi was the strongest. We never did see him in his prime and he does have his hype. Of course I don't really think Sarutobi being known as "_history's strongest_" has much bearing on the Kage after him. Additionally Kabuto might've just wanted to cheer up Orochimaru, so there's that consideration as well.

In the end all I know is that Sarutobi was awesomely powerful. I guess Kishimoto wanted that to stick more than who exactly he exceeded. The goal was simply to hype him after all for the setting of the story.


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

arednad said:


> 1. Itachi already confirmed he knows more about Akatsuki than Nagato. He already knows how Senju DNA helps power up the sharingan.



Baseless speculation. Itachi knowing more about akatsuki, which by the way he never said, is irrelevant to knowing about Madara's abilities



arednad said:


> 2. He never once said Madara was invincible. He said he was immortal, which Tsunade comes to the same conclusion. She does so after finding out he has the DNA of Hashirama.



LOL. Maybe you missed this or just that. LOL



arednad said:


> 1. We have seen what both Shishui's eye could offer and they are both genjutsu.
> 2. Yes, but being able to summon the Kyubi is quite different and that is what Madara is specifically famous for.



1. We have seen Itachi use his left and his right eye for amaterasu. Your argument is baseless
2. Madara summons the kyuubi without his mangekyou sharingan 



arednad said:


> 1. Itachi never called him invincible. You are quoting a poor translation. He only confirmed Madara was immortal.



Fine. Provide the proper translation then



arednad said:


> 2. No it is obvious from the fact, that ninjas are surprised when they see Susano'o and the only comparison it has it with Itachi's.



Did those ninjas fight Madara? NOPE



arednad said:


> Read the OFFICIAL Version.
> that



How does this "official" version change what this official version I attached earlier say? Oonoki credits Madara's strength for being enough to take the kage captive. He does credit the power of the bijuu though for his war waging power. Two different things



arednad said:


> No, but they are his two storngest jutsu and what he was famous for. It is telling that no one mentions Amaterasu or Susano'o. Those techniques are associated solely with Itachi/Sasuke.



1. Susano'o is associated with ANYONE who masters the MS
2. Madara's sharingan power has not been delved into. The author himself said so in the databook. To pretend otherwise is silly



arednad said:


> Already have.
> that



Refer to my post above


----------



## Reddan (Sep 12, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I know this I was referring to Ama and Susano'o
> 
> No its not, even the DB indicates that other Shinobi have learned Amaterasu:
> 
> ...


Well considering the first MS user was Madara and he fought aroudn 60 years ago then the techinque would be famous. What is the exact translation.


> Zetsu didn't know about a-lot of things, this is hardly confirmation Madara didn't have Susano'o.


Not really Zetsu seems to know almost everything about Madara. The very least he should know is about the techniques Madara would have used during his most famous battle. Not only, that, but surely Hashirama would have recorded the techniques in scrolls so future ninjas would know about the technique.


> I put the statement into context and the context was that Madara is weaker now than he once was. Your pulling a statement that happened pages later and saying that was the context.


No the context is clear. Onoki claims Madara should have the power to do accomplish any plan he sets out. Madara says he is a shadow of his former self. However, Onoki wants again says the power Madara has is unimaginable and the reason he gives is the 7 Bijuu. He has fought Madara previously before and lived.


> Like I said i'm not here to debate this. My sole point was that at best Jiriaya = Itachi.


Maybe, but there is no reason why this means he is not stronger than Hashirama.


> And current Madara is much weaker than EMS Madara, so yeah.


There is no way EMS Madara is stronger than the current Madara with Rinnegan, teleportation and his phasing jutsu.


> If Hiruzen is actually stronger than Hashirama than he is clearly stronger than any of the Sannin individually.


Why? The databook storngly implies that Orochimaru surpassed Hiruzen. If Orochimaru did then likely Jiraiya did the same. There is no reason to think the Three Legendary Ninjas of Konoha did not surpass Hiruzen.


> look at the next page:
> 
> official
> 
> Tobirama's suiton is about the size of Hiruzen's Doton Wall which is larger than any of suitons that Darui or Kakashi produced.


That is a different technique he used altogether. I compared all three using the water wall technique to defend themselves. Also the attack Tobirama used is nothing special size wize.


> Are we discussing who is a better/stronger Ninja or who would win in a fight between an A and Sandaime Raikage? Because if its the latter considering that Sandaime Raikage tanked FRS w/o a scratch A doesn't have anyway to even damage him, so he looses hands down.


Consistent high level attacks will eventually put down Sandaime Raikage.


> When has Samehada even shown it can absorb internal chakra w/o directly latching onto that person? This is what I doubt Samehada would be able to. Sandaime Raikage should be fast enough where Samehada doesn't get the chance to latch onto him the way it did with B when it absorbs his chakra.


It has shown to be able to absorb the lightning shroud and elemental jutsu.
Here the Samehada shows it is fast enough to dodge 7 tails Bee and then effortlessly absorb all his chakra too. The samething would happen to Sandaime Raikage.
official 


> Anyway perhaps B can win and perhaps he can't, I think we need to see more to decide.


Think it is fairly evident Bee would win easily with Samehada.


> No it really doesn't.
> Its means that your argument is not credible though


One anomaly does not mean a general rule is wrong. If so then we can dismiss the results of most experiments.


> Again your still adding words to the text, nothing says that each generation of Jonin > old generation of Jonin, all the text says is overall. So  Generation 1 Jonin could be stronger than Generation 2, but Generation 2 is overall better because the Hokage and Chuunin/Genin are stronger.
> 
> So really you can't use Younger Generation > Older Generation to say anyone is stronger than anyone else the way that your trying to use it.


Training improves, more techniques are developed and tactics of how to counter them are developed. You tell me if the Young Generation eventually catch up to and surpass the previous why there jounin would be weaker?


Senjuclan said:


> Baseless speculation. Itachi knowing more about akatsuki, which by the way he never said, is irrelevant to knowing about Madara's abilities


Nope it is an accurate reading of the evidence we have been provided with.


> LOL. Maybe you missed this or just that. LOL


Get better translations so you won't be confused by mistakes like that. He never once called him invincible.


> 1. We have seen Itachi use his left and his right eye for amaterasu. Your argument is baseless
> 2. Madara summons the kyuubi without his mangekyou sharingan


1. This maybe a mistake and Shishui on the other hand has only been noted for having one MS jutsu.
2. DO we get a close up of his eyes/


> Fine. Provide the proper translation then


Will do, in a bit.


> Did those ninjas fight Madara? NOPE


Ninja techniques get passed down. Did every ninja fight Tobirama to realise he had Edo Tensei? Did they fight Itachi to know he used Amaterasu? Kishimoto does not do this by accident.


> How does this "official" version change what this official version I attached earlier say? Oonoki credits Madara's strength for being enough to take the kage captive. He does credit the power of the bijuu though for his war waging power. Two different things


No Onoki claims Madara has enough to power at the moment to accomplish any goal he wants. Later he states how Madara has this unimaginable power due to the 7 Bijuu he posses.


> 1. Susano'o is associated with ANYONE who masters the MS
> 2. Madara's sharingan power has not been delved into. The author himself said so in the databook. To pretend otherwise is silly


Yes, but Madara's techniques would be famous. He is known for his genjutsu and that is. Kishimoto said he would explain what happened to his EMS, which Itachi said clearly he still had, but we had yet to see.


----------



## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

arednad said:


> Nope it is an accurate reading of the evidence we have been provided with.



LOL. You can't prove a fact by referring to an unrelated fact. Knowing more about akatsuki is not relevant to what we are discussing. Knowing that Senju Hashirama jutsu cuts down the recharge time for Shisui genjutsu does not mean that one knows Madara has Hashirama's abilities. LOL. Try again



arednad said:


> Get better translations so you won't be confused by mistakes like that. He never once called him invincible.



Show me the better translation then. Still the point remains that he was referring to VoTE Madara 



arednad said:


> 1. This maybe a mistake and Shishui on the other hand has only been noted for having one MS jutsu.
> 2. DO we get a close up of his eyes/



1. Where did Kishi say Shisui only had ONE MS jutsu?
2. If this is not a close up, I don't know what is



arednad said:


> Will do, in a bit.



OK



arednad said:


> Ninja techniques get passed down. Did every ninja fight Tobirama to realise he had Edo Tensei? Did they fight Itachi to know he used Amaterasu? Kishimoto does not do this by accident.



Sure. Like when Orochimaru first used edo tensei, Hiruzen and the ANBU said Jeez that is the nidaime jutsu, right? 



arednad said:


> No Onoki claims Madara has enough to power at the moment to accomplish any goal he wants. Later he states how Madara has this unimaginable power due to the 7 Bijuu he posses.



NOPE. False. He says he is surprized Madara is still alive however, he does not understand that Madara has to use round about tactics given his power. 



arednad said:


> Yes, but Madara's techniques would be famous. He is known for his genjutsu and that is. Kishimoto said he would explain what happened to his EMS, which Itachi said clearly he still had, but we had yet to see.



Hence the reason I don't think you can say he ONLY has such and such jutsu. I don't know which other jutsu Madara had. However, I am pretty confident that he would have susano'o. You can't be the strongest Uchiha and not master the MS. Plus, I think it is pretty safe to assume that he had tsukuyomi as well


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## Odlam (Sep 12, 2011)

He only seems as strong as he does because Kishi is on a time limit to make these kages look impressive. When they are only going to last an issue or two, and you want to make them look like respectably powerful kages, you've got to make them break out top tier jutsus.

Sarutobi would win. But he wouldn't have easy fights against any of these kages. People misunderstand Sarutobi being the strongest of the kages to mean he'd roll them, which wouldn't be the case.


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## Reddan (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> LOL. You can't prove a fact by referring to an unrelated fact. Knowing more about akatsuki is not relevant to what we are discussing. Knowing that Senju Hashirama jutsu cuts down the recharge time for Shisui genjutsu does not mean that one knows Madara has Hashirama's abilities. LOL. Try again


Knowing about the Rikoudo existed, knowing about the relationship between Hashirama's cells and the sharingan, knowing Madara was immortal amongst many other things suggest he does know.


> Show me the better translation then. Still the point remains that he was referring to VoTE Madara


*Itachi: He was the first man to use these eyes to tame the Kyuubi. // He was my partner, my master, and he is immortal. // And he is the only man to discover the one other secret of the Mangekyou Sharingan. // That is Uchiha Madara.*
Cnet

*Itachi: Using his eyes, he was the first man able to tame the Kyuubi

オレの相棒であり師であり　不滅の男
Itachi: He is my accomplice and mentor; an immortal man

そしてこの万華鏡写輪眼のもう一つの秘密を暴いた唯一の男
Itachi: And he is the only man who was able to disclose *the other secret of Mangekyou Sharingan**
Tora-chan

The Viz agrees with it.


> 1. Where did Kishi say Shisui only had ONE MS jutsu?
> 2. If this is not a close up, I don't know what is


1. Both his eyes have the same jutsu, please provide some evidence to suggest he did not only have one jutsu.
2. This was after he had the powers of the sharingan and Senju DNA. Hashirama's power could control Bijuu as well. The combination changes things.


> Sure. Like when Orochimaru first used edo tensei, Hiruzen and the ANBU said Jeez that is the nidaime jutsu, right?


Tobirama recognised the technique and praised Orochimaru for being able to use it. Hiruzen was also aware of the technique suggesting that it was known to shinobi beforehand. In the case of Amaterasu nobody knows of its use beforehand and 300 chapters later it is still solely attributed to Itachi/Sasuke.


> NOPE. False. He says he is surprized Madara is still alive however, he does not understand that Madara has to use round about tactics given his power.


Yes the power of the 7 Bijuu, which he later says he cannot even fathom the power of.


> Hence the reason I don't think you can say he ONLY has such and such jutsu. I don't know which other jutsu Madara had. However, I am pretty confident that he would have susano'o. You can't be the strongest Uchiha and not master the MS. Plus, I think it is pretty safe to assume that he had tsukuyomi as well


Madara was the strongest Uchiha of his time. Things change. Madara had to steel the powers of Hashirama to keep up with the times. If Madara had used Susano;o then it would have been in the records. Kakashi, Jiraiya, etc would have known about it. Instead it took everyone by surprise even Zetsu. Why would Madara have a fight to death with his most hated rival and withhold his best move?


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## Lord Stark (Sep 12, 2011)

Senjuclan said:


> I am tired of arguing someone who does not read what I say. I never mentioned shukaku. This is the second time where you respond to stuff I did not mention


I brought up Shukaku because Bunta held him off for a few minutes.  You completely ignored my point.  Literally Bunta landed on top of the Kyuubi due to Minato.




> And you know this how? Please do tell. Actually, scratch that do not tell


It's pretty simple.  A Mountain buster>Town Buster.  Go to the OBD for calcs.  



> Once he has summoned them once, he can summon them on and off. I think my point remains. I have no desire to keep this up


Orochimaru has the perfect counter to the Kyuubi.  Unless you can summon/ are Madara or Hashirama, you can not control the Kyuubi, period.




> You mean, you made it up. Great. Moving on


Are you seriously going to debate on whether or not the Kyuubi inside Naruto is the strongest Bijuu?   
Seriously?




> Maybe you need to reread Sasuke vs. Kirabi


Re-read, they never cross entire mountains.  




> You know that is bullshit. I actually made it pretty clear for you. At any rate, I am not sure that keeping this up makes sense. I would rather argue other people bro


Concession accepted.


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## shintebukuro (Sep 12, 2011)

arednad said:
			
		

> Itachi was setting up Sasuke to kill Madara. He told him Madara was his accomplice knowing full well Sasuke would go after him. He wanted to inform Sasuke about the powers, how to gain EMS and just how strong he would need to be to take out the CURRENT threat.



I'm aware Itachi wanted him to take out current Madara, but he hyped him by describing his past level of strength.

He wanted Sasuke to think that Madara still had EMS.


> Itachi knows about Nagaot and the powers of the Sage. Itachi knows about how the Senju DNA helps improve the sharingan. Itachi knows that Madara is immortal.



None of that points to him knowing about Madara's new powers.



> No evidence comes from Shishui having the best genjutsu and being the best user of the Shunshin jutsu. The new generation surpassing the old is another reason.



Having the best genjutsu and best shunshin does not make him stronger...

Look, your entire viewpoint hinges on that "new gen>old gen" concept, and you just mold and twist everything to fit with it.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2011)

arednad said:


> Knowing about the Rikoudo existed, knowing about the relationship between Hashirama's cells and the sharingan, knowing Madara was immortal amongst many other things suggest he does know.



Danzou knew the rikudou existed. He knew about the relationship between Hashirama's cells and the sharingan. He knew Madara was immortal. Did he know Madara had izanagi? NOPE



arednad said:


> *Itachi: He was the first man to use these eyes to tame the Kyuubi. // He was my partner, my master, and he is immortal. // And he is the only man to discover the one other secret of the Mangekyou Sharingan. // That is Uchiha Madara.*
> Cnet
> 
> *Itachi: Using his eyes, he was the first man able to tame the Kyuubi
> ...



Great. Still does not change the fact that Itachi said Madara was the strongest Uchiha



arednad said:


> 1. Both his eyes have the same jutsu, please provide some evidence to suggest he did not only have one jutsu.



Itachi used both his left and right eye for amaterasu. So, what proof do you have that Shisui could not use both eyes for koto amatsukami



arednad said:


> 2. This was after he had the powers of the sharingan and Senju DNA. Hashirama's power could control Bijuu as well. The combination changes things.



Speculation without proof. 



arednad said:


> Tobirama recognised the technique and praised Orochimaru for being able to use it. Hiruzen was also aware of the technique suggesting that it was known to shinobi beforehand. In the case of Amaterasu nobody knows of its use beforehand and 300 chapters later it is still solely attributed to Itachi/Sasuke.



Yet Hiruzen and the ANBU captain did not attribute edo tensei to Tobirama. It took 400 chapters for anyone to mention it. Your argument is laughable



arednad said:


> Yes the power of the 7 Bijuu, which he later says he cannot even fathom the power of.



Baloney. He said "for a man of your strength" not some other strength. Uchiha Madara strength



arednad said:


> Madara was the strongest Uchiha of his time. Things change. Madara had to steel the powers of Hashirama to keep up with the times.



Baloney. Itachi said he needed to get the EMS to supplant Madara as the strongest Uchiha. Stop bullshiting



arednad said:


> If Madara had used Susano;o then it would have been in the records. Kakashi, Jiraiya, etc would have known about it. Instead it took everyone by surprise even Zetsu. Why would Madara have a fight to death with his most hated rival and withhold his best move?



LOL. Sure just like there was a record of Tobirama using edo tensei when he was raised. What about his space-time ninjutsu? Was that mentioned? NOPE. How about shodai's bijuu? Were they mentioned? NOPE. The author mention things as he goes to after delving into a character. Madara's powers have not been delved into. Kishi promised us he would, therefore i am not shocked that his susano'o has not been mentioned. However, as the strongest Uchiha in history, there is no way he could have mastered the MS and even the EMS and not have susano'o


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## Turrin (Sep 13, 2011)

arednad said:


> Well considering the first MS user was Madara and he fought aroudn 60 years ago then the techinque would be famous. What is the exact translation.


Are Rikudo Sannin's Jutsu famous? Its been like 90 years or something, people are going to forget about a Jutsu they have never seen since then. And that is the exact translation. Also the MS is said to be an Uchiha clan secret, so it's not famous ether, yet we know that Madara had MS, so clearly fame is not a good way to decide what Madara did or didn't have.



> Not really Zetsu seems to know almost everything about Madara. The very least he should know is about the techniques Madara would have used during his most famous battle. Not only, that, but surely Hashirama would have recorded the techniques in scrolls so future ninjas would know about the technique.


Zetsu was created after Madara's duel with Hashirama, so how would he know about Madara's powers before then? 



> No the context is clear. Onoki claims Madara should have the power to do accomplish any plan he sets out. Madara says he is a shadow of his former self. However, Onoki wants again says the power Madara has is unimaginable and the reason he gives is the 7 Bijuu. He has fought Madara previously before and lived.


You don't seem to get it, it doesn't matter if Onoki is talking about Madara with the Bijuu or w/o the Bijuu, because ether way we are told Pre-Rannigan Madara is much weaker than EMS Madara.

EMS Madara + Kyuubi > Pre-Rannigan Madara + 7 Bijuu Hell God Statue

Now unless you believe Kyuubi is a-lot stronger than 7 Bijuu, that obviously means that EMS Madara is stronger than Pre-Rannigan Madara for reasons aside from the Bijuu. This is supported by the fact that Madara mentions him being weakened due to suffering injuries at the hands of Hashirama not a lack of Bijuu power.



> Maybe, but there is no reason why this means he is not stronger than Hashirama.


Yes it does because Itachi admitted inferiority to Madara.



> There is no way EMS Madara is stronger than the current Madara with Rinnegan, teleportation and his phasing jutsu.


I mean Pre-Rannigan Madara. Itachi ether admitted inferiority to EMS Madara or Pre-Rannigan Madara, ether way he is weaker than EMS Madara, who is in turn weaker than Hashirama.



> Why? The databook storngly implies that Orochimaru surpassed Hiruzen. If Orochimaru did then likely Jiraiya did the same.


The Data-book doesn't imply anything like that. 



> There is no reason to think the Three Legendary Ninjas of Konoha did not surpass Hiruzen.


If Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama, who in turn is stronger than EMS Madara, who in turn is stronger than Itachi, it's pretty hard for me to imagine that Orochimaru is superior to Hiruzen. 



> That is a different technique he used altogether. I compared all three using the water wall technique to defend themselves. Also the attack Tobirama used is nothing special size wize.


Tobirama used Water Wall and than converted that water into a large Water Dragon Missile, show me when Kakashi or Darui have done anything like that w/o a water source. If you can't than Tobirama is still only surpassed in Suiton by Kisame.



> Consistent high level attacks will eventually put down Sandaime Raikage.


That makes no sense, if FRS didn't even scratch Sandaime Raikage, Yondaime Raikage's blows aren't going to do shit to him and Sandaime Raikage has the endurance to last 3 days, how many times do you think Yondaime Raikage can amp up his shroud to Bijuu levels in-order to dodge Sandaime Raikage's attacks.



> It has shown to be able to absorb the lightning shroud and elemental jutsu.
> Here the Samehada shows it is fast enough to dodge 7 tails Bee and then effortlessly absorb all his chakra too. The samething would happen to Sandaime Raikage


Yes Samehada can absorb all the chakra in the Raiton Armor i'm not talking about that, i'm referring to Sandaime Raikage's internal chakra. 



> Think it is fairly evident Bee would win easily with Samehada.


I love how your so confident even though we haven't seen all of Sandaime Raikage's capabilities yet. And to be honest I think Sandaime Raikage could beat B with the 5th treasure fairly easily since B is some-one who can't keep his mouth shut.



> One anomaly does not mean a general rule is wrong. If so then we can dismiss the results of most experiments.


This isn't an experiment, this is a statement which your trying to pass of as fact. 



> Training improves, more techniques are developed and tactics of how to counter them are developed. You tell me if the Young Generation eventually catch up to and surpass the previous why there jounin would be weaker?


Look at the current generation of Konoha. Their Jonin are Kurunai [pregers], Gai, Kakashi, and that's pretty much it. Do you honestly think that's as strong selection of Jonin than in Hiruzen's generation where the Jonin where the Legendary Sannin, White Fang, and Dan? Do you honestly think that's as strong a selection of Jonin as in Tobirama's generation when the Jonin were Uchiha Kagami, Hiruzen, Danzo, etc....?

Anyway my point is that Kishi only says overall Younger Generation > Old Generation he never says each younger generation surpasses their old generation counter part. Some times it happens and some times it doesn't.


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## GucciBandana (Sep 13, 2011)

it is because Hiruzen had better skills than 3rd Raikage, and they prob fought, Hiruzen came up on top.


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## Reddan (Sep 13, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Are Rikudo Sannin's Jutsu famous? Its been like 90 years or something, people are going to forget about a Jutsu they have never seen since then. And that is the exact translation. Also the MS is said to be an Uchiha clan secret, so it's not famous ether, yet we know that Madara had MS, so clearly fame is not a good way to decide what Madara did or didn't have.


It has been like 70 years since Madara fought. People, who fought him are still alive. The jutsu of his compatriots are stil famous like Edo Tensei or Hashirama's Mokuten. The weapons Kinkaku and Ginkaku used are famous. Madara using summoning the Kyubi is well known as is his genjutsu. It is fair to assume he did not have Amaterasu and Susano'o.


> Zetsu was created after Madara's duel with Hashirama, so how would he know about Madara's powers before then?


This is true, but Zetsu has a great deal of knowledge about Madara. He knows about his plan for Eye of the Moon. He has seen many fights and seems to have knowledge about lots of things. Him being unaware of Susano;o is telling.


> You don't seem to get it, it doesn't matter if Onoki is talking about Madara with the Bijuu or w/o the Bijuu, because ether way we are told Pre-Rannigan Madara is much weaker than EMS Madara.


No we are told he is a shadow of himself. We don't know what exactly that means, because he wanted Nagato to use the ressurection jutsu on him.


> EMS Madara + Kyuubi > Pre-Rannigan Madara + 7 Bijuu Hell God Statue


This is true, but the Kyubi is the key factor there.


> Now unless you believe Kyuubi is a-lot stronger than 7 Bijuu, that obviously means that EMS Madara is stronger than Pre-Rannigan Madara for reasons aside from the Bijuu. This is supported by the fact that Madara mentions him being weakened due to suffering injuries at the hands of Hashirama not a lack of Bijuu power.


I think there is a good chance the Kyubi maybe stronger than all the other Biju. It had to be sealed last since it's chakra would unbalance the stature. Other Bijuu can be harmed by normal jutsu, but not even the Kusanagi sword could pierce 4 tails Naruto.


> Yes it does because Itachi admitted inferiority to Madara.


Itachi said he was weaker than the CURRENT Madara, with EMS and the powers of the Senju. He said nothing about the Madara of the past.


> I mean Pre-Rannigan Madara. Itachi ether admitted inferiority to EMS Madara or Pre-Rannigan Madara, ether way he is weaker than EMS Madara, who is in turn weaker than Hashirama.


Not true at all. Itachi made a point of saying the current Madara still had his eyes. It was this \Madara he was talking about and the one he wanted Sasuke to kill. The current Madara with EMS and the powers of the Senju.


> The Data-book doesn't imply anything like that.


MS has been around for 70 years and there are no other Amaterasu users noted.


> If Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama, who in turn is stronger than EMS Madara, who in turn is stronger than Itachi, it's pretty hard for me to imagine that Orochimaru is superior to Hiruzen.


 More like Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru, who is stronger than Hiruzen, who is stronger than Hashirama, who was stronger than EMS Madara back then. What would EMS Madara do when Orochimaru summoned both Senju brothers against him?


> Tobirama used Water Wall and than converted that water into a large Water Dragon Missile, show me when Kakashi or Darui have done anything like that w/o a water source. If you can't than Tobirama is still only surpassed in Suiton by Kisame.


Darui's water attack on Sasuke produced just as much water as Tobirama's.
_implied_


> That makes no sense, if FRS didn't even scratch Sandaime Raikage, Yondaime Raikage's blows aren't going to do shit to him and Sandaime Raikage has the endurance to last 3 days, how many times do you think Yondaime Raikage can amp up his shroud to Bijuu levels in-order to dodge Sandaime Raikage's attacks.


He does not need to amp his shroud to dodge Sandaime Raikages attacks. He already has faster reflexes and could dodge with his raiton shroud. He may even be strong enough to simply get around his father and choke him out.


> Yes Samehada can absorb all the chakra in the Raiton Armor i'm not talking about that, i'm referring to Sandaime Raikage's internal chakra.


Well it did manage to absorb Naruto's when he tried to use the Kybui. However, after that he would simply drown Sandaime Raikage.


> I love how your so confident even though we haven't seen all of Sandaime Raikage's capabilities yet. And to be honest I think Sandaime Raikage could beat B with the 5th treasure fairly easily since B is some-one who can't keep his mouth shut.


Bee is can be serious in battle and would recognise what the fifth treasure was and how it would work. Therefore he would not answer. Besides Hachibee would inform him of this.


> This isn't an experiment, this is a statement which your trying to pass of as fact.


No this is how you judge if something should be used as a rule. If 99% percent of the New Generation surpass the Old then it can be used  as rule.


> Look at the current generation of Konoha. Their Jonin are Kurunai [pregers], Gai, Kakashi, and that's pretty much it. Do you honestly think that's as strong selection of Jonin than in Hiruzen's generation where the Jonin where the Legendary Sannin, White Fang, and Dan? Do you honestly think that's as strong a selection of Jonin as in Tobirama's generation when the Jonin were Uchiha Kagami, Hiruzen, Danzo, etc....?


Yes I have no doubt that Kakashi is much stronger than the Sannin, who fought against Hanzo. Chouza seemed to have not much trouble against Dan. When Gai goes 7 gates or Kakashi used Kamui I dout the past jounin could stand. LOL How can you even mentioned Uchiha Kagami when we have no feats about him? 


> Anyway my point is that Kishi only says overall Younger Generation > Old Generation he never says each younger generation surpasses their old generation counter part. Some times it happens and some times it doesn't.


Not every counter part will surpass their older teacher, but the best of the NEW will surpass the best of the Old.


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## GucciBandana (Sep 14, 2011)

I grantee Hiruzen and 3rd Raikage encountered each other during either the 3rd Shinobi war or the 2nd Shinobi war.


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## Yasaka Magatama (Sep 14, 2011)

I think it's due to aging that he's weakened alot. He was very old at the time. The Prime Hiruzen would be the strong one. But I also doubt that he is the strongest, maybe he is the strongest at his time.


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## Taijukage (Sep 14, 2011)

Maybe we will see a Hiruzen vs Raikage flashback


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## Turrin (Sep 15, 2011)

arednad said:


> It has been like 70 years since Madara fought. People, who fought him are still alive. The jutsu of his compatriots are stil famous like Edo Tensei or Hashirama's Mokuten. The weapons Kinkaku and Ginkaku used are famous. Madara using summoning the Kyubi is well known as is his genjutsu. It is fair to assume he did not have Amaterasu and Susano'o.



 I think that point is very weak considering that it seems like all the information pertain to Mangekyo was kept hush hush by the clan and that's why very few people even know about the Mangekyo let alone techniques it was used for years ago. 



> This is true, but Zetsu has a great deal of knowledge about Madara. He knows about his plan for Eye of the Moon. He has seen many fights and seems to have knowledge about lots of things. Him being unaware of Susano;o is telling.


Zetsu didn't know what Susano'o was by its appearance, but why would he when he was created after Madara had already lost the ability to use Susano'o, so there is no way that he could have seen it used before than anyway.



> No we are told he is a shadow of himself. We don't know what exactly that means, because he wanted Nagato to use the ressurection jutsu on him.


Madara states that he has little power left when compared to his EMS self due to injuries he got when fighting Hashirama. This means that Pre-ranningan Madara is weaker than EMS Madara, there are no if ands or buts about it.



> This is true, but the Kyubi is the key factor there.



A) It doesn't matter because Hashirama is stronger ether way
B) The key factor was stated to be injuries Madara received at the valley of the end not the bijuu/kyuubi



> I think there is a good chance the Kyubi maybe stronger than all the other Biju. It had to be sealed last since it's chakra would unbalance the stature. Other Bijuu can be harmed by normal jutsu, but not even the Kusanagi sword could pierce 4 tails Naruto.


It doesn't matter why EMS Madara was stronger since ether way Hashirama is stronger than EMS Madara.



> Itachi said he was weaker than the CURRENT Madara, with EMS and the powers of the Senju. He said nothing about the Madara of the past.


Itachi never said anything about being weaker than Pre-rannigan Madara *+ EMS powers*. Your totally making that up. Itachi is ether talking surpassing pre-rannigan Madara [as he actually was at that point in the manga not some made up version with EMS] or he was talking about surpassing Madara's legacy as the strongest Uchiha, I.E. surpassing Madara at his strongest which was EMS Madara. Ether way this statement means Hashirama > Itachi, since Hashirama > EMS Madara > Pre-Rannigan Madara.



> Not true at all. Itachi made a point of saying the current Madara still had his eyes. It was this \Madara he was talking about and the one he wanted Sasuke to kill. The current Madara with EMS and the powers of the Senju.


Itachi just says Madara lives along with his ocular power, that does not mean he still has EMS, it just means that he still has some of his ocular power. You are adding words to the text here, to make it fit your meaning.

Plus its fricken laughable that you think Itachi with EMS would surpass a Madara who has EMS + Senju Hashirama's powers. 



> MS has been around for 70 years and there are no other Amaterasu users noted.



Someone other than Itachi obviously had Amaterasu since its stated that the clan knew of the Jutsu and the clan didn't know Itachi had the mangekyo and they didn't see his techniques. So who else other than Izuna and Madara could have possessed amaterasu? I guess shisui could have had Amaterasu on top of Kotoamatsukami or maybe there was another MS user after Madara, but if anyone who activates Mangekyo can achieve Amaterasu it seems unlikely that Madara or Izuna didn't.



> More like Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru, who is stronger than Hiruzen, who is stronger than Hashirama, who was stronger than EMS Madara back then.


The problem with your conclusion is that there is nothing that states Orochimaru > Prime Hiruzen.



> What would EMS Madara do when Orochimaru summoned both Senju brothers against him?


He would rape him considering that the Senju Brothers are not nearly as strong as they were when they were alive.



> Darui's water attack on Sasuke produced just as much water as Tobirama's.
> *1 tail Naruto*


No it didn't. Darui's water wave was not the size of a large doton wall like Tobirama's. 



> He does not need to amp his shroud to dodge Sandaime Raikages attacks. He already has faster reflexes and could dodge with his raiton shroud. He may even be strong enough to simply get around his father and choke him out.


I think its fricken ridicouls that you think Yondaime Raikage is stronger than Sandaime Raikage still, based on what we have seen in recent chapters. 



> Well it did manage to absorb Naruto's when he tried to use the Kybui. However, after that he would simply drown Sandaime Raikage.


Drown Sandaime Raikage what are you talking about?



> Bee is can be serious in battle and would recognise what the fifth treasure was and how it would work. Therefore he would not answer. Besides Hachibee would inform him of this.


Sandaime Raikage can seal things w/o them answering we saw him do this in the flashback fight against the Hachibi. But I still think Sandaime Raikage could trick B into answering fairly easily.



> No this is how you judge if something should be used as a rule. If 99% percent of the New Generation surpass the Old then it can be used as rule.


But its not 99%



> Yes I have no doubt that Kakashi is much stronger than the Sannin, who fought against Hanzo. Chouza seemed to have not much trouble against Dan. When Gai goes 7 gates or Kakashi used Kamui I dout the past jounin could stand. LOL How can you even mentioned Uchiha Kagami when we have no feats about him?


Why are you restricting the Legendary Sannin to their performance against a Prime Hanzo? Thats when they just first started out and became much stronger since then. I really doubt Gai and Kakashi could defeat Dan, Jiriaya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, and White Fang.



> Not every counter part will surpass their older teacher, but the best of the NEW will surpass the best of the Old.


This was never stated in the text and thus your making it up. Again the manga just said that overall the new generation would surpass the older generation. Nothing their states that if shinobi Y is the best of the old their will be a shinobi X whose the best of the new who is better than Shinobi Y. 

Going by what the text actually says, their might be a Shinobi Y in the older generation that was never individually surpassed by a single Shinobi X of the younger generation, but the new generation is still better due to Shinobi X, W, Z together being a great fighting force than Shinobi Y.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 15, 2011)

So this thread is about how unimpressive a 70 year old man was in a fight against a high tier opponent who had prep...OK...Orochimaru alone trolled the 4 tails while near death here he had 2 previous hokage's for backup and he only just managed to get out alive against this 70 year old man!!!...and Sarutobi is not as powerful as some moron who falls on his own attack and runs after bouncy balls...OK...


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## Skaddix (Sep 15, 2011)

orochi could simply have slit the old mans throat and not have wasted time so not recognising anything wrong i would call pretty pathetic


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## Reddan (Sep 15, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I think that point is very weak considering that it seems like all the information pertain to Mangekyo was kept hush hush by the clan and that's why very few people even know about the Mangekyo let alone techniques it was used for years ago.


The thing is Kakashi did know about the MS. In fact he was prepared for the Super MS genjutsu Itachi was about to use. This is why he told the others to shut their eyes. However, he had no idea about Amaterasu. 


> Zetsu didn't know what Susano'o was by its appearance, but why would he when he was created after Madara had already lost the ability to use Susano'o, so there is no way that he could have seen it used before than anyway.


He did not know what it was at all. Susano'o is the strongest move of an MS user. If Madara used it against Hashirama (which he would been stupid not to) it would have been famous. 


> Madara states that he has little power left when compared to his EMS self due to injuries he got when fighting Hashirama. This means that Pre-ranningan Madara is weaker than EMS Madara, there are no if ands or buts about it.


Little power compared to his complete form. When he gains the power of the Juubi. Or do you think EMS Madara was complete too? He managed to have a close fight with Minato. Nothing suggest EMS Madara could do better. Minato actually seemed very confident in taking out EMS Madara.


> A) It doesn't matter because Hashirama is stronger ether way
> B) The key factor was stated to be injuries Madara received at the valley of the end not the bijuu/kyuubi


Madara says there is much more him having little power than his fight with Hashirama.


> It doesn't matter why EMS Madara was stronger since ether way Hashirama is stronger than EMS Madara.


Yes and Hiruzen surpassed Hashirama. Orochimaru is implied to have surpassed Hiruzen as did Minato. Hashirama is not praised anywhere as the strongest ninja. In addition Kishimoto repeats the Young Generation surpass the old. Madara on the other hand has been busy stealing as many powers as possible from everyone to keep up. Though, no matter what powers he steals the New Generation of Heroes are still stronger.


> Itachi never said anything about being weaker than Pre-rannigan Madara *+ EMS powers*. Your totally making that up. Itachi is ether talking surpassing pre-rannigan Madara [as he actually was at that point in the manga not some made up version with EMS] or he was talking about surpassing Madara's legacy as the strongest Uchiha, I.E. surpassing Madara at his strongest which was EMS Madara. Ether way this statement means Hashirama > Itachi, since Hashirama > EMS Madara > Pre-Rannigan Madara.


Itachi says Madara will not become the ULTIMATE shinobi, he will. Considering what Madara has said about becoming the ultimate shinobi this should be a clear hint.

Itachi says Madara' eyes and their power still exist. He then says he will surpass Madara. If he was talking about Pre Rinnegan Madara, why would he emphasise that Madara's eye power still exist? 

Itachi had a hidden meaning in everything he said to Sasuke. He was trying to influence Sasuke to kill Madara. So he was talking the version of Madara, Sasuke would have to face.


> Itachi just says Madara lives along with his ocular power, that does not mean he still has EMS, it just means that he still has some of his ocular power. You are adding words to the text here, to make it fit your meaning.


No once again you are purposely you using a poor translation to further your point. Itachi made a point of saying Madara is still alive and his eye powers are still there. It is obvious he meant EMS and not some random sharingan he stole.


> Plus its fricken laughable that you think Itachi with EMS would surpass a Madara who has EMS + Senju Hashirama's powers.


At this point I think it is fairly obvious that Sasuke and Itachi are descendants from the Senju as well. Thus there importance to Madara, Orochimaru and Kabuto. Or do you think it is laughable Sasuke is definitely going to surpass Nagato and Itachi was at least on his level.


> Someone other than Itachi obviously had Amaterasu since its stated that the clan knew of the Jutsu and the clan didn't know Itachi had the mangekyo and they didn't see his techniques. So who else other than Izuna and Madara could have possessed amaterasu? I guess shisui could have had Amaterasu on top of Kotoamatsukami or maybe there was another MS user after Madara, but if anyone who activates Mangekyo can achieve Amaterasu it seems unlikely that Madara or Izuna didn't.


Who said the clan did not know Itachi had Amaterasu or the MS? Itachi had MS for at least 2 years before he wiped out the clan. If Shishui had the MS then other people would have known about it. They all knew about his MS genjutsu. You refuse to accept all the evidence that Amatersu requires massive amounts of Yang energy.


> The problem with your conclusion is that there is nothing that states Orochimaru > Prime Hiruzen.


This is true, but it is the most probable answer. The databook makes it clear Orochimaru had more potential and would eventually surpass his teacher. Was reading through the VIZ and Sarutobi did not even believe he could face Orochimaru let alone win. He was desperately looking for Jiraiya. 


> He would rape him considering that the Senju Brothers are not nearly as strong as they were when they were alive.


Says who. The manga disagrees. Sarutobi specifically says they are JUST as strong as their primes. Non of the Edo Tensei' have been weaker than they were in during their lifetime.


> No it didn't. Darui's water wave was not the size of a large doton wall like Tobirama's.


We have to disagree.


> I think its fricken ridicouls that you think Yondaime Raikage is stronger than Sandaime Raikage still, based on what we have seen in recent chapters.


Yes recent chapters should make it very clear Yondaiem Raikage would beat his father. We still have no indication of how tough A is. 


> Drown Sandaime Raikage what are you talking about?


Simple after constantly absorbing his chakra he would then flood the place to drown him. There are many ways to take out someone invulnerable.


> Sandaime Raikage can seal things w/o them answering we saw him do this in the flashback fight against the Hachibi. But I still think Sandaime Raikage could trick B into answering fairly easily.


We saw a small part of the flash back. A explained to use exactly how jar worked. It requires someone to answer back hence why Ino had to get involved.


> But its not 99%


Yes it is. Apart from RS, every ninja generation has consistently become stronger than the one before.


> Why are you restricting the Legendary Sannin to their performance against a Prime Hanzo? Thats when they just first started out and became much stronger since then. I really doubt Gai and Kakashi could defeat Dan, Jiriaya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, and White Fang.


Where does this hype for Dan come from? Chouza handled him. Gai and Kakashi are beast. You neglect that the two of them are not done yet and are still getting stronger.

The Sannin at 30 were much weaker than when the manga started. 
Orochimaru did not have Edo Tensei, his body transfer, the sword of Kusanagi and possibly even Hydra Mode.

Tsunade did not have Genesis Rebirth.

Jiraiya may or may not have had Sennin Mode. He probably did not have the Rasengan.


> This was never stated in the text and thus your making it up. Again the manga just said that overall the new generation would surpass the older generation. Nothing their states that if shinobi Y is the best of the old their will be a shinobi X whose the best of the new who is better than Shinobi Y.


The manga says one by one the New Generation will Surpass the Old. The Manga says Old Legends are exaggerated.  


> Going by what the text actually says, their might be a Shinobi Y in the older generation that was never individually surpassed by a single Shinobi X of the younger generation, but the new generation is still better due to Shinobi X, W, Z together being a great fighting force than Shinobi Y.


This is not the way the story has been written. Kishimoto has made a point of the increase in strength of the top tier characters. Hence why Minato was the best of the best and thought to be chosen one. This is why Bee is the only Perfect Jinchuriki in history.


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## GucciBandana (Sep 15, 2011)

arednad said:


> The manga says one by one the New Generation will Surpass the Old. The Manga says Old Legends are exaggerated.
> 
> This is not the way the story has been written. Kishimoto has made a point of the increase in strength of the top tier characters. Hence why Minato was the best of the best and thought to be chosen one. This is why Bee is the only Perfect Jinchuriki in history.



if that IS the case, Nagato would be creating Jupiter using Chibaku Tensei, everyone from the Uchiha clan should be having EMS, Tenzo can hold the 10 tail with Wood Release, and Onoki be killing Mu in few seconds, A be taking Chidori and Sasuke's hand would be bleeding.

of course there are cases like Choji surpassing Choza, Gaara surpassing 4th Kazekage, and very likely in the future Lee surpassing Gai, Neji surpassing Hiashi and so on, the Konoha 11 are the main characters and they are the generation the author is focusing on, but clearly great Legends are styll Legends because everyone looks "up" to them


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## Reddan (Sep 15, 2011)

GucciBandana said:


> if that IS the case, Nagato would be creating Jupiter using Chibaku Tensei, everyone from the Uchiha clan should be having EMS, Tenzo can hold the 10 tail with Wood Release, and Onoki be killing Mu in few seconds, A be taking Chidori and Sasuke's hand would be bleeding.
> 
> of course there are cases like Choji surpassing Choza, Gaara surpassing 4th Kazekage, and very likely in the future Lee surpassing Gai, Neji surpassing Hiashi and so on, the Konoha 11 are the main characters and they are the generation the author is focusing on, but clearly great Legends are styll Legends because everyone looks "up" to them



RS is the exception as he started the whole ninja series. Do you doubt that Nagato is stronger than any ninja, who came before him?

Just, because the subsequent generations get stronger does not mean fodder can beat the legends. Only the elite of this generation will be able to beat the elite of the past. Nor does it mean they will be able to smash them in a fight, but in the end they would be victorious.


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## GucciBandana (Sep 15, 2011)

arednad said:


> RS is the exception as he started the whole ninja series. Do you doubt that Nagato is stronger than any ninja, who came before him?
> 
> Just, because the subsequent generations get stronger does not mean fodder can beat the legends. Only the elite of this generation will be able to beat the elite of the past. Nor does it mean they will be able to smash them in a fight, but in the end they would be victorious.



yes I doubt Nagato is stronger than every ninja came before him, according to Madara, he's the 3rd part of RS, I don't see the first 2 parts: Hashirama or Madara losing to him at all. unless you believe Itachi surpassed EMS Madara, I don't see how Madara would lose to Nagato.

new generation would be able to beat the old ones if people bring back the older people and fight, because the new ones have the information about the old ones, and know how to counter them better, the old generation don't even know most of the new ninjas exist.


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## Reddan (Sep 15, 2011)

GucciBandana said:


> yes I doubt Nagato is stronger than every ninja came before him, according to Madara, he's the 3rd part of RS, I don't see the first 2 parts: Hashirama or Madara losing to him at all. unless you believe Itachi surpassed EMS Madara, I don't see how Madara would lose to Nagato.
> 
> new generation would be able to beat the old ones if people bring back the older people and fight, because the new ones have the information about the old ones, and know how to counter them better, the old generation don't even know most of the new ninjas exist.



This is a mistranslation. Nagato was the 3rd Rikoudo. The 3rd man to have the Rinnegan and powers of the Senju and Uchiha.

AS for your second point that is another reason why the new generation surpass the old. They are able to build on the tactics and work of the old. For instance Gaara learnt many techniques from his father like the third eye. Whilst A copied the lightning shroud from his father and took it a step further. Or the way Gai has passed down a way to fight the sharingan, which did not exist before for taijutsu experts.


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## GucciBandana (Sep 15, 2011)

arednad said:


> This is a mistranslation. Nagato was the 3rd Rikoudo. The 3rd man to have the Rinnegan and powers of the Senju and Uchiha.
> 
> AS for your second point that is another reason why the new generation surpass the old. They are able to build on the tactics and work of the old. For instance Gaara learnt many techniques from his father like the third eye. Whilst A copied the lightning shroud from his father and took it a step further. Or the way Gai has passed down a way to fight the sharingan, which did not exist before for taijutsu experts.



Im pretty sure he's the 3rd part of RS, only 2 people we know that has the power of both Senju and Uchiha are Madara and Danzo, but Danzo doesn't have the 3rd part, which is Rinnegan.

yes new generation can come up with some new jutsus, but at the same time a lot of skills are lost and couldn't be passed down, such as Wood Release, EMS, Nano bugs, complete invisibility, Mirage skills and so on. like A had his father's skills, and he improved a part of it, at the same time, he lost some of the skills too, such as black lightning, the finger jutsu. Gai has a new skill for Sharingan, but during Hashirama's time, Im sure there are MANY ways fighting Sharingan, at least Senju clan' style against Sharingan wasn't something got passed down.


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## Turrin (Sep 15, 2011)

arednad said:


> The thing is Kakashi did know about the MS. In fact he was prepared for the Super MS genjutsu Itachi was about to use. This is why he told the others to shut their eyes. However, he had no idea about Amaterasu.
> He did not know what it was at all. Susano'o is the strongest move of an MS user. If Madara used it against Hashirama (which he would been stupid not to) it would have been famous.


Alright I'll admit that these are valid enough points and Madara may not have had Amaterasu or Susano'o. My only problem with your argument is that you saying Madara w/o a doubt didn't have them, which I don't think is a wise thing to say at this point. Quite honestly your fame argument makes sense after the provided explanations, but I believe their is a strong possibility that Kishi did not think things out to the extent that you did with your explanation. So i'm not going to discount the possibility even though you have presented a fairly solid argument.

With that said I honestly don't think it matters what MS Jutsu Madara had because all of the Jutsu we have seen so far have been incredibly powerful. So to me any shinobi with 2+ MS Jutsu + EMS already possess quite powerful techniques.



> Little power compared to his complete form. When he gains the power of the Juubi. Or do you think EMS Madara was complete too? He managed to have a close fight with Minato. Nothing suggest EMS Madara could do better. Minato actually seemed very confident in taking out EMS Madara.
> Madara says there is much more him having little power than his fight with Hashirama.


Fact of the matter is Madara was not talking about having little power compared to his complete form, he was talking about having little power compared to his EMS self. We can tell this because Madara says, _"I am little more than a shell of *my former self*."_ and he attributes that not to Bijuu, but to injuries that Hashirama gave him at the valley of the end.

So Pre-Rannigan Madara was not as strong as EMS Madara, that's all there is too it. 



> Yes and Hiruzen surpassed Hashirama. Orochimaru is implied to have surpassed Hiruzen as did Minato. Hashirama is not praised anywhere as the strongest ninja. In addition Kishimoto repeats the Young Generation surpass the old. Madara on the other hand has been busy stealing as many powers as possible from everyone to keep up. Though, no matter what powers he steals the New Generation of Heroes are still stronger.
> This is true, but it is the most probable answer. The databook makes it clear Orochimaru had more potential and would eventually surpass his teacher. Was reading through the VIZ and Sarutobi did not even believe he could face Orochimaru let alone win. He was desperately looking for Jiraiya.


See the problem with this whole argument is that there is literally nothing definitive in the entire manga saying that Orochimaru is stronger than Prime Hiruzen, you have just decided that since Orochimaru had the potential to surpass Hiruzen that he actually did, which is a jump in logic which can't be supported with any kind of facts until we actually see how strong Prime Hiruzen was. 

The second flaw is that its not even clear Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama. Prime Hiruzen has the rep of being greater than Hashirama, but who gave him this rep and does everyone agree? Once upon a time it was said that Itachi and Kisame paled in comparison to Jiriaya due to his rep as a legendary sannin, but  that turned out to be wrong, so I don't think its wise to rest your entire argument on rep, with no other evidence to support it.



> Itachi says Madara will not become the ULTIMATE shinobi, he will. Considering what Madara has said about becoming the ultimate shinobi this should be a clear hint.
> 
> Itachi says Madara' eyes and their power still exist. He then says he will surpass Madara. If he was talking about Pre Rinnegan Madara, why would he emphasise that Madara's eye power still exist?
> 
> ...



So once again you accuse me of using a poor translation to further my point, even though I have already proved that I don't do that? Fact of the matter is i'm using the Viz translation same as you, where it states:

_"Madara lives on along with his ocular power."_

"his ocular power" or doka is none descriptive. Itachi never states what ocular powers he's referring to, he could be referring to all EMS Madara's ocular powers [though that wouldn't make sense based on what we know about Madara], he could be referring to specific ocular powers, or even new ocular powers. However most likely Itachi is referring to Madara's ocular powers that allowed him to control and summon the demon fox, since that is the ocular powers of Madara that everyone always refers to when talking about Madara, which he still retained even after his duel with Hashirama [proven by the Minato flashback].

That's just a guess, but its a far more likely one than to assume Itachi was talking about a Madara who never existed, I.E. one with both EMS and Senju Hashirama's powers. 



> At this point I think it is fairly obvious that Sasuke and Itachi are descendants from the Senju as well. Thus there importance to Madara, Orochimaru and Kabuto.


I don't think that's fairly obvious at all and I'm not going to sit here and debate theories with you that have little to no proof supporting them.


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## Turrin (Sep 15, 2011)

> Or do you think it is laughable Sasuke is definitely going to surpass Nagato and Itachi was at least on his level.


When and if Sasuke surpasses Nagato, it will be due to Sasuke mastering EMS to the highest level and not being a crippled. I.E. a perfect Uchiha will surpass an imperfect Rikudo. 



> Who said the clan did not know Itachi had Amaterasu or the MS? Itachi had MS for at least 2 years before he wiped out the clan. If Shishui had the MS then other people would have known about it. They all knew about his MS genjutsu. You refuse to accept all the evidence that Amatersu requires massive amounts of Yang energy.


Itachi did not have MS 2 years before he wiped out the clan he had MS for like a couple of days before he wiped out the clan and no one seemed to know he had it.



> Says who. The manga disagrees. Sarutobi specifically says they are JUST as strong as their primes.


When does Sarutobi say this? Proof please.



> Non of the Edo Tensei' have been weaker than they were in during their lifetime.


Sasori who didn't have any of his 298 puppets including Sandaime Kazekage wasn't weaker as a tensei than he was in life? Gin, Kin, and Sandaime Raikage who didn't have the Amber Sealing pot weren't weaker than they were in life? Asuma who didn't have his signature chakra knives wasn't weaker than he was in life? Fuguki who didn't have Samehada wasn't weaker than he was in life?



> We have to disagree.


There is nothing to disagree about your simply wrong. You can clearly see that Tobirama's suiton left a considerable amount of water on the battlefield after it had been used:



Darui's Suiton did not leave an amount of water even close to that 



> Yes recent chapters should make it very clear Yondaiem Raikage would beat his father. We still have no indication of how tough A is.


How could recent chapters possibly have made it clear that Yondaime Raikage would beat his father LOL. 



> Simple after constantly absorbing his chakra he would then flood the place to drown him. There are many ways to take out someone invulnerable.


When did B gain the ability to use Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha



> We saw a small part of the flash back. A explained to use exactly how jar worked. It requires someone to answer back hence why Ino had to get involved.


The part of the flashback we saw was when the Jar was used and Sandaime by creating a Hand-seal was able to use it w/o Hachibi having to respond and do you honestly think Sandaime Raikage said Hachibi and Hachibi said yeah what's up lol.

Basically we saw one way the Amber pot can be used, nothing says it can't be used another way as well and clearly that is what we saw in the flashback.



> Yes it is. Apart from RS, every ninja generation has consistently become stronger than the one before.


Even including Rikudo Sannin every generation has become stronger than the one before it * overall*. 



> Where does this hype for Dan come from? Chouza handled him. Gai and Kakashi are beast. You neglect that the two of them are not done yet and are still getting stronger.


Chouza + others were handling him, but it was made clear they would be fucked if he got serious and used Ghost Mode. 



> The Sannin at 30 were much weaker than when the manga started.
> Orochimaru did not have Edo Tensei, his body transfer, the sword of Kusanagi and possibly even Hydra Mode.
> 
> Tsunade did not have Genesis Rebirth.
> ...


The Sannin were weaker, but I see no reason to believe that them + White Fang + Dan would loose to Kakashi, Gai, and Chouza were are essentially the only Jonin around that have any type of good feats.



> The manga says one by one the New Generation will Surpass the Old. The Manga says Old Legends are exaggerated.


Yes and was Kinkaku defeated by a single person? Or was he defeated by the combined might of the new generation possessing a greater fighting force than he could produce? 



> This is not the way the story has been written. Kishimoto has made a point of the increase in strength of the top tier characters. Hence why Minato was the best of the best and thought to be chosen one. This is why Bee is the only Perfect Jinchuriki in history.


No Kishi hasn't made this point. Who are the strongest Shinobi in the verse right now? Rikudo Sannin and Uchiha Madara, who solo out of all the many generations that have come after them could hope to defeat them? The answer is nobody. The same thing is going to happen with Naruto and Sasuke as well, do you honestly think there is going to be a single shinobi from the generation after them that will be stronger than them? 

Kishi has indicated that some times the top tier shinobi of a certain generation is surpassed by the next generations top tier shinobi, but he has also indicated that some-times this does not happen and the new generation isn't better due to a single person being better than the older generation's top tier shinobi, but due to the younger generation overall possessing a greater fighting force.


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## batman22wins (Sep 15, 2011)

Wait you guys have been avging if pre Rinnegan Madara is stronger then EMS Madara for 3 pages? EMS:S>>>Pre Madara. You guys can't be serious right? Also lol at lakashi,Gai beating the white gang and sennins.lmfao White fang solos on powerscaling alone.


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## GucciBandana (Sep 15, 2011)

did someone say Orochimaru surpassed Hiruzen? lol Orochimaru denied it, he even said himself a 60 years old Hiruzen would kill him.

I don't think Nagato is any closer than Ridoku than the leader of Uchiha and Senju.


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## jimbob631 (Sep 15, 2011)

batman22wins said:


> Wait you guys have been avging if pre Rinnegan Madara is stronger then EMS Madara for 3 pages? EMS:S>>>Pre Madara. You guys can't be serious right? Also lol at lakashi,Gai beating the white gang and sennins.lmfao White fang solos on powerscaling alone.



I would say its not that absurd to think prerinnengan Madara could be in a sense stronger than EMS Madara.  He specifically says he fought Hashirama to gain his powers, enabling him to use what I believe is the best jutsu in the manga, Izanagi.  Couple izanagi with intangibility and Madara is immortal for 20 minutes (20 minutes is because he has 5 minutes of izanagi for each eye and 5 minutes of intangibility).  He becomes even more broken when you factor in the ability to instantly teleport someone and his likely very high level genjutsu.  

People often say its manga fact that EMS Madara is stronger because he says he's a shell of his former self but he contradicts himself later when he speaks to Konan about fighting Hashirama for his powers.  Also he is technically a shell of his former self, it would be hard for him to go around capturing bijuu or taking down hoards of ninja like his old self probably could (which is why he founded Akatsuki)  but in a one on one fight I don't think there's a single ninja that could best him aside from Kabuto because of edo tensei (Minato did it but Madara didn't use izanagi).


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## GucciBandana (Sep 16, 2011)

in a sense, pre-rinnegan Tobi can be stronger than EMS Madara, but in a sense ONLY.
we don't know when Madara gained his S/T jutsu, but what we know is he lost all of his offensive jutsu and most of his Sharingan power, he only gained Hashirama's cell, which he used for 2 things: White Zetsu, Izanagi, he doesn't know Wood Release himself, he lost way more than he gained.

plus I don't understand why people keep saying Minato did Madara? in what sense? if in a sense of he stopped Madara, then Hiruzen beat Orochimaru too. in a sense of landing a hit? then Konan beat him, Itachi beat him after his death, Danzo's body guards beat him too.


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## Harbour (Sep 16, 2011)

If we compare Pre-Rin Madara and EMS Madara, we will go to this conclusions:
Pre-Rin Madara can use Mugen Tsu(as he said) and S/T MS(or even EMS) Tech, Izanagi, genjutsu(Fuu and Torune) He didnt show Susano and Ama. Seemed he lost large part of own body, but he replaced their with new parts made ​​from cells of Hashirama. Kyubi he can to control.
EMS Madara may be has Ama and Susano, but couldnt pass atacks through his own body. Also he didnt has Izanagi, hashirama's body. Possible, he also didnt has S/T tech(some fanbook2 sources tell about this, but this may be false).  
So, as we can see, Madara lost his eye(maybe with Ama and smth else 1 tech) and some parts of own body, but gain hashirama's cells and ability to pass atacks through himself.


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## Reddan (Sep 16, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Alright I'll admit that these are valid enough points and Madara may not have had Amaterasu or Susano'o. My only problem with your argument is that you saying Madara w/o a doubt didn't have them, which I don't think is a wise thing to say at this point. Quite honestly your fame argument makes sense after the provided explanations, but I believe their is a strong possibility that Kishi did not think things out to the extent that you did with your explanation. So i'm not going to discount the possibility even though you have presented a fairly solid argument.
> 
> With that said I honestly don't think it matters what MS Jutsu Madara had because all of the Jutsu we have seen so far have been incredibly powerful. So to me any shinobi with 2+ MS Jutsu + EMS already possess quite powerful techniques.


In my argument I am not saying it is without a doubt, just by far the most probable option at the moment.

MS jutsu may all be quite powerful, but they are not equally so.


> Fact of the matter is Madara was not talking about having little power compared to his complete form, he was talking about having little power compared to his EMS self. We can tell this because Madara says, _"I am little more than a shell of *my former self*."_ and he attributes that not to Bijuu, but to injuries that Hashirama gave him at the valley of the end.
> 
> So Pre-Rannigan Madara was not as strong as EMS Madara, that's all there is too it.


Madara at the moment did not have his body or his EMS eyes. 


> See the problem with this whole argument is that there is literally nothing definitive in the entire manga saying that Orochimaru is stronger than Prime Hiruzen, you have just decided that since Orochimaru had the potential to surpass Hiruzen that he actually did, which is a jump in logic which can't be supported with any kind of facts until we actually see how strong Prime Hiruzen was.


An argument does not have to be definitive to be a good one or accepted. I am arguing that this is the most reasonable and logical conclusions so should be the one, which is accepted.

Orochimaru was touted as having more potential than Hiruzen. Hiruzen did not even think he could FACE Orochimaru let alone defeat him. Instead he was desperately seeking for Jiraiya. Orochimaru killed Hiruzen, whilst not even taking the fight seriously. There is no jump of logic. It follows perfectly on from one another.


> The second flaw is that its not even clear Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama. Prime Hiruzen has the rep of being greater than Hashirama, but who gave him this rep and does everyone agree? Once upon a time it was said that Itachi and Kisame paled in comparison to Jiriaya due to his rep as a legendary sannin, but  that turned out to be wrong, so I don't think its wise to rest your entire argument on rep, with no other evidence to support it.


This is even more clear than Orochimaru surpassing Hiruzen. Sarutobi was said to have superlative strength even compared to the other Hokages. Sarutobi in his prime was called the strongest Hokage. In his old age he was still able to defeat Hashirama. In their fight he showed counters to Mokuten and most likely Hashirama's best genjutsu. 

As for Itachi and Jiraiya, it should have been obvious from the start there was something going on with Itachi. The Sannin were implied to be equal with Orochimaru marginally ahead of Jiraiya. Before Itachi makes his appearance, Kishimoto has Orochimaru say Itachi was stronger than him. Jiraiya starts to sweat after witnessing Itachi's power. Itachi never shows any fear or concern to Jiraiya and Kisame still thinks a tired Itachi could take Jiriaya. These things should have tipped people off even as the chapters came out.


> So once again you accuse me of using a poor translation to further my point, even though I have already proved that I don't do that? Fact of the matter is i'm using the Viz translation same as you, where it states:
> 
> _"Madara lives on along with his ocular power."_
> 
> "his ocular power" or doka is none descriptive. Itachi never states what ocular powers he's referring to, he could be referring to all EMS Madara's ocular powers [though that wouldn't make sense based on what we know about Madara], he could be referring to specific ocular powers, or even new ocular powers. However most likely Itachi is referring to Madara's ocular powers that allowed him to control and summon the demon fox, since that is the ocular powers of Madara that everyone always refers to when talking about Madara, which he still retained even after his duel with Hashirama [proven by the Minato flashback].


The most likely scenario is Itachi is referring to the occular powers Madara had at his best. Or else what would be the point of the build up?


> That's just a guess, but its a far more likely one than to assume Itachi was talking about a Madara who never existed, I.E. one with both EMS and Senju Hashirama's powers.


Let's find out how Madara created the Rinnegan first before we say Madara with EMS and Senju Hashirama's powers never existed.


> I don't think that's fairly obvious at all and I'm not going to sit here and debate theories with you that have little to no proof supporting them.


The evidence is overwhelming. Looks, Itachi being the sole Uchiha who could infiltrate the ranks, Itachi's rapid rise up Konoha's system, Madara/Orochimaru/Kabuto's desire to gain them, Susano'o and Onmyoton technique, Amaterasu a Yoton technique


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## Reddan (Sep 16, 2011)

Turrin said:


> When and if Sasuke surpasses Nagato, it will be due to Sasuke mastering EMS to the highest level and not being a crippled. I.E. a perfect Uchiha will surpass an imperfect Rikudo.


We saw a non crippled Nagato and he was in Itachi's league, let alone Sasuke's with EMS.


> Itachi did not have MS 2 years before he wiped out the clan he had MS for like a couple of days before he wiped out the clan and no one seemed to know he had it.


Yes he did. The timeline is quite clear. Shishui died when Itachi was 11, this was around the same age he infiltrated Akatsuki and defeated Orochimaru. Itachi gained MS around 6 months after he became a Chunin at 10.5


> When does Sarutobi say this? Proof please.


I admit I was wrong there. I was recalling the anime. Checked the VIZ and all Hiruzen says is they look more like their old selves.


> Sasori who didn't have any of his 298 puppets including Sandaime Kazekage wasn't weaker as a tensei than he was in life? Gin, Kin, and Sandaime Raikage who didn't have the Amber Sealing pot weren't weaker than they were in life? Asuma who didn't have his signature chakra knives wasn't weaker than he was in life? Fuguki who didn't have Samehada wasn't weaker than he was in life?


Sasori lost Sandaime Kazkage before he died. Same with Gin/KIn. It was taken from them before they died. As for Sandaime Raikage and the sealing pot, we don't know when he passed it on. I admit you have a point here and the ninjas without weapons were weaker. However, Edo's are copies of the originals and most of them are just as strong as the originals.


> There is nothing to disagree about your simply wrong. You can clearly see that Tobirama's suiton left a considerable amount of water on the battlefield after it had been used:
> 
> 
> 
> Darui's Suiton did not leave an amount of water even close to that


Like I said there were different techniques used. Orochimaru and the Anbu make their comments after seeing the water all. Which is precisely the same size as the ones Kakashi and Darui used.


> How could recent chapters possibly have made it clear that Yondaime Raikage would beat his father LOL.


It shows brains, plus superior speed and reflexes would take down Sandaime Raikage.


> When did B gain the ability to use Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha


My fault there. I lost tract and thought we were talking about Kisame. Bee would simply hit him with Bijuu blast. We still do not know if that would be enough to wound him or not. However, after constantly stealing his chakra Bee should be able to outlast him anyway. The 8 tails could fight him to mutual exhaustion. With Samehada actively stealing Raikage's chakra to give to Bee, Sandaime Raikage would lose the battle of attrition.


> The part of the flashback we saw was when the Jar was used and Sandaime by creating a Hand-seal was able to use it w/o Hachibi having to respond and do you honestly think Sandaime Raikage said Hachibi and Hachibi said yeah what's up lol.


We do not know what conditions had to be invoked. We only had one description of how the pot works. Considering the other items had rules I see no reason to think the pot would be special. Perhaps they just beat the Hachibee into submission.


> Basically we saw one way the Amber pot can be used, nothing says it can't be used another way as well and clearly that is what we saw in the flashback.


No we saw that it was used once and got a description of how it was used. A gave us the mechanics now we know.


> Even including Rikudo Sannin every generation has become stronger than the one before it * overall*.
> 
> Chouza + others were handling him, but it was made clear they would be fucked if he got serious and used Ghost Mode.


Nope it was implied it took him time to use Ghost Mode hence Chouza could take him out beforehand.


> The Sannin were weaker, but I see no reason to believe that them + White Fang + Dan would loose to Kakashi, Gai, and Chouza were are essentially the only Jonin around that have any type of good feats.


Inoichi appears to be the most famous and best telepathic around. You forget Yamato, Fuu and Torune. Ignore Shizune's medical skills. She is the second best in Konoha and probably the world.


> Yes and was Kinkaku defeated by a single person? Or was he defeated by the combined might of the new generation possessing a greater fighting force than he could produce?


Did Kinkaku go up against the likes of Bee, Gaara, Raikage, Tsunade, Itachi etc? No. A seemed very confident he would take them down if he entered the fray and I have no reason to doubt him.


> No Kishi hasn't made this point. Who are the strongest Shinobi in the verse right now? Rikudo Sannin and Uchiha Madara, who solo out of all the many generations that have come after them could hope to defeat them? The answer is nobody. The same thing is going to happen with Naruto and Sasuke as well, do you honestly think there is going to be a single shinobi from the generation after them that will be stronger than them?


RS is an exception. Madara is a pitiful failure constantly stealing powers to become the strongest, but always failing. In his youth he stole his brothers eyes, but Hashirama was too strong. He then stole Hashirama's powers, gained teleportation/phasing, but Minato was too strong. He somehow gained or created the Rinnegan and is going to fight the Hero again. Guess how that is going to turn out.


> Kishi has indicated that some times the top tier shinobi of a certain generation is surpassed by the next generations top tier shinobi, but he has also indicated that some-times this does not happen and the new generation isn't better due to a single person being better than the older generation's top tier shinobi, but due to the younger generation overall possessing a greater fighting force.


Simply from following the manga the younger generation have constantly surpassed the old. Look at the Sandaime Raikage surpassing his predecessors, the same with Hiruzen, or Sandaime Kazekage, Gaara, Sasori with Chiyo, 7 swordsmen of the Mist, Kimimaro, Kabuto, Sasuke, Naruto, Neji, Nagato with Hanzo, Mifune etc.


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## Brian (Sep 16, 2011)

monkey mode    .


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## arokh (Sep 16, 2011)

GucciBandana said:


> plus I don't understand why people keep saying Minato did Madara? in what sense?



In every sense. He stopped him physically, took away his weapon (kyuubi) and foiled his plan. Madara pretty much ran away to fight another day, but as we all know Minato has foiled his future plan too, by sealing kyuubi inside Naruto.

Please tell me in what way Minato lost? He 100% defeated Madara with some truly incredible feats. What exactly did Madara succeed in?



> if in a sense of he stopped Madara, then Hiruzen beat Orochimaru too.



Actually, I believe Orochimaru's main goal was to off Hiruzen. Mission accomplished.



> in a sense of landing a hit? then Konan beat him, Itachi beat him after his death, Danzo's body guards beat him too.



No, of course not in the sense of landing a hit. Do you actually believe anybody decides a winner for landing a hit? Come on.


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## Seraphiel (Sep 16, 2011)

trondah said:


> In every sense. He stopped him physically, took away his weapon (kyuubi) and foiled his plan. Madara pretty much ran away to fight another day, but as we all know Minato has foiled his future plan too, by sealing kyuubi inside Naruto.
> 
> Please tell me in what way Minato lost? He 100% defeated Madara with some truly incredible feats. What exactly did Madara succeed in?



Minato sure didn't think he won, in fact he was sure he would never again win against Madara, also Madara had a casual chat with him after Minato stabbed him in the gut and was not the least bit worried. I don't see how he ran away, he flat out left because he had nothing to accomplish there anymore.

Minato is the one who chose suicide as to not face him again.


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## batman22wins (Sep 16, 2011)

trondah said:


> In every sense. He stopped him physically, took away his weapon (kyuubi) and foiled his plan. Madara pretty much ran away to fight another day, but as we all know Minato has foiled his future plan too, by sealing kyuubi inside Naruto.
> 
> Please tell me in what way Minato lost? He 100% defeated Madara with some truly incredible feats. What exactly did Madara succeed in?
> 
> ...



Minato beat a weaken Madara with one jutsu. He never faced prime Madara with all his jutsu and fan.


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## titantron91 (Sep 16, 2011)

He might have feats. Only he didn't use it on Oro because they won't work on Oro the haxregenerator man.

I hope Sarutobi can use Quake Bubbles (contained seismic chaos inside bubbles) and Terrain Gravity Manipulation.


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## Harbour (Sep 16, 2011)

yeah, and he didnt use all-destruction technique on Fox because he was the member of Greenpeace.
and yeah, he+kage+five jonins was<<<<<20 Kumo shinobies. So, 20:7=~3 shinobi on each of them. Hiruzen in his Prime was<3 Kumo shinobi.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2011)

People rank Hiruzen based on part 1 hype only. For me I don't see him as the proclaimed God of shinobi, even though that was his nickname in the days...
I can easily place 5 or 6 kage (not only from the Leaf) who could be considered stronger than he was.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2011)

arednad said:


> In my argument I am not saying it is without a doubt, just by far the most probable option at the moment.


Okay



> MS jutsu may all be quite powerful, but they are not equally so.


The MS Jutsu that are unique from the triad of Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano'o all seem to be super strong, for example Kamui and Kotoamatsukmai.



> Madara at the moment did not have his body or his EMS eyes.


So he was weaker 



> An argument does not have to be definitive to be a good one or accepted. I am arguing that this is the most reasonable and logical conclusions so should be the one, which is accepted.


I disagree that its thee most logical conclusion.



> Orochimaru was touted as having more potential than Hiruzen. Hiruzen did not even think he could FACE Orochimaru let alone defeat him. Instead he was desperately seeking for Jiraiya. Orochimaru killed Hiruzen, whilst not even taking the fight seriously. There is no jump of logic. It follows perfectly on from one another.


The jump in logic is that Orochimaru having the potential doesn't mean he achieved it and Orochimaru defeating Old Hiruzen does not mean he is stronger than Prime Hiruzen.



> This is even more clear than Orochimaru surpassing Hiruzen. Sarutobi was said to have superlative strength even compared to the other Hokages. Sarutobi in his prime was called the strongest Hokage.


It's not clear. This is what Takl had to say about the Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage statement:



takL said:


> hiruzen _was reputed_ to be the best ever hokage _then_.
> it's what people said.
> maybe some thought otherwize.
> maybe that has changed since then.



We don't know if everyone agree Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage, we just know some random people thought he was. Some random people thought only a Sannin could defeat a Sannin. Rep is not that great of an argument.



> In his old age he was still able to defeat Hashirama. In their fight he showed counters to Mokuten and most likely Hashirama's best genjutsu.


And clearly he faced a watered down version of Hashirama



> Sasori lost Sandaime Kazkage before he died. Same with Gin/KIn. It was taken from them before they died. As for Sandaime Raikage and the sealing pot, we don't know when he passed it on. I admit you have a point here and the ninjas without weapons were weaker. However, Edo's are copies of the originals and most of them are just as strong as the originals.


I also believe Hashirama did not have his weapons and was thus much weaker. Allow me to explain:



In this picture we can clearly see that Hashirama is carrying two scrolls which he uses to fight. We don't know what these scrolls do but they must be fairly strong if Hashirama was preparing to use them against the kyuubi or EMS Madara.  

Also in that picture we see a bunch of different swords and weapons next to Hashirama, I believe these could also be Hashirama's weapons, considering the scene of Madara's demise is with a sword being jammed through his gut:



Finally in that picture we see Hashirama has create a forest the size of the demon fox, with enormous branches, in the Hiruzen fight he was no able to do this since the Barrier Jutsu limited the amount of space he could use his Jutsu within.

Aside from that we also have Madara's statement that Hashirama had collected a few of the tailed beasts and kept them under his control and Orochimaru states Hashirama had total control over tailed beasts. Furthermore during Hashirama's fight with Madara it's stated he gained control of the Kyuubi. So Hashirama at his best had several Bijuu under his command. 

So basically the weapons I believe Hashirama lacked are

1. His Scrolls
2. His Bijuu
3. Potentially his Swords

And Hashirama was also restricted by the sound 4's barrier. This is to not even mention the fact that Hashirama's intellect, will, etc... were all restricted by the fact that Orochimaru wiped his mind with his fuda tags, which would also weaken him or the fact that Orochimaru was only having the kages toy around with Hiruzen. 

So yeah Old Hiruzen was facing a pathetic version of Hashirama. Granted Old Hiruzen is a pathetic version of Hiruzen, but we simply don't know who is stronger imo.



arednad said:


> As for Itachi and Jiraiya, it should have been obvious from the start there was something going on with Itachi. The Sannin were implied to be equal with Orochimaru marginally ahead of Jiraiya. Before Itachi makes his appearance, Kishimoto has Orochimaru say Itachi was stronger than him. Jiraiya starts to sweat after witnessing Itachi's power. Itachi never shows any fear or concern to Jiraiya and Kisame still thinks a tired Itachi could take Jiriaya. These things should have tipped people off even as the chapters came out.


I'm not here to argue Itachi vs Jiriaya, I'm just using that as an example to show how rep can be wrong and is not really credible to use as the sole basis of your argument



> The most likely scenario is Itachi is referring to the occular powers Madara had at his best. Or else what would be the point of the build up?


The build up was to the fact that Madara was still alive and some how survived his defeat at the hands of Senju Hashirama



> Let's find out how Madara created the Rinnegan first before we say Madara with EMS and Senju Hashirama's powers never existed.


So your argument is once again an unsubstantiated theory?



> The evidence is overwhelming. Looks, Itachi being the sole Uchiha who could infiltrate the ranks, Itachi's rapid rise up Konoha's system, Madara/Orochimaru/Kabuto's desire to gain them, Susano'o and Onmyoton technique, Amaterasu a Yoton technique


Sigh...

Itachi rose in the ranks because he was willing to be double agent for the Elders, Danzo, and Hiruzen, this was already explained in the manga. Madara/Orochimaru/Kabuto desire to gain them for their eye power and Uchiha power, there is never any mention of Senju power.

I have already told you Amaterasu is a Yin technique. Fire falls under Yin in Yin/Yang mythology and Amaterasu is female goddess which is also Yin related, as well as the black flames.

Susano'o is more arguable, but Susano'o is always dark like Yin in the manga. 

But overall i'm not going to debate based on your theories. 



> We saw a non crippled Nagato and he was in Itachi's league, let alone Sasuke's with EMS.


Nagato was still crippled and he was above Itachi's league



> Yes he did. The timeline is quite clear. Shishui died when Itachi was 11, this was around the same age he infiltrated Akatsuki and defeated Orochimaru. Itachi gained MS around 6 months after he became a Chunin at 10.5


Where does it say Shisui died when itachi was 11?



> Like I said there were different techniques used. Orochimaru and the Anbu make their comments after seeing the water all. Which is precisely the same size as the ones Kakashi and Darui used.


My point never was that Tobirama's Water Wall was large, my point was that Tobirama's suiton abilities w/o a water source were overall better than Darui's or Kakashi's and I proved that.



> It shows brains, plus superior speed and reflexes would take down Sandaime Raikage.


1. When has A ever shown brains?
2. In Ch 554 is explicitly stated that A didn't know how Raikage got his scar



> My fault there. I lost tract and thought we were talking about Kisame. Bee would simply hit him with Bijuu blast. We still do not know if that would be enough to wound him or not. However, after constantly stealing his chakra Bee should be able to outlast him anyway. The 8 tails could fight him to mutual exhaustion. With Samehada actively stealing Raikage's chakra to give to Bee, Sandaime Raikage would lose the battle of attrition.


Like I said Maybe B could beat him or maybe he couldn't, but even if B could beat him I don't think it really makes him a better ninja than Sandaime Raikage. B only has a chance to win because he has thee ultimate counter to Sandaime Raikage's Raiton Shroud in the former of Samehada. 

B is a horrible match up for Sandaime Raikage. I think Sandaime Raikage could very well out perform B against mutual opponents. 



> We do not know what conditions had to be invoked. We only had one description of how the pot works. Considering the other items had rules I see no reason to think the pot would be special. Perhaps they just beat the Hachibee into submission.
> No we saw that it was used once and got a description of how it was used. A gave us the mechanics now we know.


Fact of the matter is we saw it used another way in the flashback. Sure we don't know the specifics but that doesn't change the fact that we saw it used another way.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2011)

> Nope it was implied it took him time to use Ghost Mode hence Chouza could take him out beforehand.


It was never implied it took time, Dan just hadn't used it yet.



> Inoichi appears to be the most famous and best telepathic around. You forget Yamato, Fuu and Torune. Ignore Shizune's medical skills. She is the second best in Konoha and probably the world.


Still don't think they are better than the Sannin, White Fang, and Dan. Not to mention the village obviously had other Jonin which could handle people like Shizune, Inoichi, Fuu, and Torune who were never that amazing.



> Did Kinkaku go up against the likes of Bee, Gaara, Raikage, Tsunade, Itachi etc? No. A seemed very confident he would take them down if he entered the fray and I have no reason to doubt him.


You miss the point. Kinkaku is an example where the new generation overcomes the older not through a specific shinobi being stronger, but through a greater fighting force.



> RS is an exception. Madara is a pitiful failure constantly stealing powers to become the strongest, but always failing. In his youth he stole his brothers eyes, but Hashirama was too strong. He then stole Hashirama's powers, gained teleportation/phasing, but Minato was too strong. He somehow gained or created the Rinnegan and is going to fight the Hero again. Guess how that is going to turn out.


The problem with your argument is for your argument to be correct there would need to be a person from each generation after Madara's that are stronger than Madara currently is now, but their isn't. So Madara is another example of where this rule doesn't apply.



> Simply from following the manga the younger generation have constantly surpassed the old. Look at the Sandaime Raikage surpassing his predecessors, the same with Hiruzen, or Sandaime Kazekage, Gaara, Sasori with Chiyo, 7 swordsmen of the Mist, Kimimaro, Kabuto, Sasuke, Naruto, Neji, Nagato with Hanzo, Mifune etc.


And I think there are plenty of examples where this doesn't happen as well, but you and I disagree with whose strong or the better shinobi so what's the point? And I don't need to argue X > Y or anything like that because all I have to say is that your adding shit to the text which was never stated. All that was stated is the Younger Generation overall > Older Generation. If you can show me one statement that shows all the younger generation top tier shinobi always > all the old generations top tier shinobi, than i'll concede, but that never appears in the manga, not once.


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## Reddan (Sep 18, 2011)

Turrin said:


> The MS Jutsu that are unique from the triad of Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano'o all seem to be super strong, for example Kamui and Kotoamatsukmai.


Not as strong as the triad. Nor as complete. The triad gives an incredibly powerful spiritual attack and an incredibly powerful physical attack.


> So he was weaker


However, when Itachi spoke of him he mentioned how his eyes were still around.


> I disagree that its thee most logical conclusion.


That's fine, but it is foolish to dismiss an argument if you think it is 90% likely to be true on the 10% chance it is not. If you don't think it is the most logical then that is fine.


> The jump in logic is that Orochimaru having the potential doesn't mean he achieved it and Orochimaru defeating Old Hiruzen does not mean he is stronger than Prime Hiruzen.


No, because Orochimaru worked as hard as possible. He never slacked off and he himself invented 2 S-rank jutsu, perfected a third (reputed to be one of the strongest jutsu ever), trained a boss summon stronger than Gamabunta, gained a sword of Kusanagi and spent ages mastering jutsu. Even before Hiruzen realised the full extent of his deterioration he felt he was no much for his pupil


> It's not clear. This is what Takl had to say about the Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage statement:
> 
> We don't know if everyone agree Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage, we just know some random people thought he was. Some random people thought only a Sannin could defeat a Sannin. Rep is not that great of an argument.


Kishimoto would not throw that line in to say Hiruzen was so popular people overrated him. He also has the feats ton show he was stronger than Tobirama and Hashirama.


> And clearly he faced a watered down version of Hashirama


This is baseless. He faced a stronger version of Hashirama in my opinion since he could regenerate from every attack, forcing Hiruzen to seal him up, rather than defeat him with taijutsu.


> I also believe Hashirama did not have his weapons and was thus much weaker. Allow me to explain:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will entertain Hashirama may have used special swords, but there have been no mention of them. If they were a huge part of his power then he would have been credited for using them. Instead he is renowned for Mokuten and controlling the tailed beast.

The size of the arena would have effected Hiruzen more, since he would have less space to move about. Still he showed he could easily smash the Mokuten to pieces with Enma.


> Aside from that we also have Madara's statement that Hashirama had collected a few of the tailed beasts and kept them under his control and Orochimaru states Hashirama had total control over tailed beasts. Furthermore during Hashirama's fight with Madara it's stated he gained control of the Kyuubi. So Hashirama at his best had several Bijuu under his command.


This still does not stop Hiruzen from killing him. Dealing with the tailed beast after maybe a problem. We do not know which Tailed Beast Hashirama had under his control. Nor could he fully control the Kyubi. Madara claims only the powers of the Uchiha could fully control the beast and Mito Uzumaki had to seal the beast to help Hashiram control it.

Nor do we know if he could make the beast fight for him or just restrain and b ring them under control. If the latter then he could not really use them to fight a single opponent since they would be attack everything in their paths until he restrained them again.


> So basically the weapons I believe Hashirama lacked are
> 
> 1. His Scrolls
> 2. His Bijuu
> ...


This is all speculation though. At the end of the day Hashirama was said to be weaker than Hiruzen in the manga and the databook. The in addition Hiruzen was shown to easily counter his moves and defeat him. He only managed to survive due to being a zombie, but even then Sarutobi managed to defeat him.

The tags may have played some part, but the size of the barrier helped him, since a bigger space would enable Sarutobi to dodge him with great ease.


> So yeah Old Hiruzen was facing a pathetic version of Hashirama. Granted Old Hiruzen is a pathetic version of Hiruzen, but we simply don't know who is stronger imo.


The manga never once says Edo Hashirama was a pathetic version of his old self, like it does for Hiruzen. However, we know who is stronger. Hiruzen was said in 3 different places to be stronger. This supports the theme of the Younger Generation Surpassing the Old and nothing in the manga has contradicted it.


> I'm not here to argue Itachi vs Jiriaya, I'm just using that as an example to show how rep can be wrong and is not really credible to use as the sole basis of your argument


Rep can indeed be wrong especially about the legends of the past like Hashirama and Madara.


> The build up was to the fact that Madara was still alive and some how survived his defeat at the hands of Senju Hashirama


No the build up to was that he would have to face someone incredibly strong. He wanted Sasuke to take his eyes to ensure victory.


> So your argument is once again an unsubstantiated theory?


This as much evidence as your theory on Edo Hashirama being much weaker. Madara's eyes are said to still exist. Madara claims the Rinnegan was his to beging with and he gave them to Nagato. We have yet to see Madara's EMS.


> Itachi rose in the ranks because he was willing to be double agent for the Elders, Danzo, and Hiruzen, this was already explained in the manga. Madara/Orochimaru/Kabuto desire to gain them for their eye power and Uchiha power, there is never any mention of Senju power.


No this is where you are wrong. Itachi's rise in the ranks was not due to him being a double agent. Do you think someone like Danzo would trust an Uchiha on his word alone. Shishui had to give up his eye. Nor does this explain why Fugaku was so confident Itachi would be the pipe to connect them to the village. Fugaku did not plan for Itachi to become a double agent, but for some reason he thought his son would be able to infiltrate right into the centre of the government. 


> I have already told you Amaterasu is a Yin technique. Fire falls under Yin in Yin/Yang mythology and Amaterasu is female goddess which is also Yin related, as well as the black flames.


We can discuss this elsewhere, but it is not a Yin technique.


> Susano'o is more arguable, but Susano'o is always dark like Yin in the manga.


Discuss elsewhere


> But overall i'm not going to debate based on your theories.


Yet you bring up theories like Hashirama swords being a huge part of his power, or him unleashing the tailed beast in fights. Neither of which have been said and the swords have not even once been mentioned as anything significant. Looks like you have a double standard.


> Nagato was still crippled and he was above Itachi's league


No he just was not as fast as the other two. Itachi possible could have finished him with Amaterasu, probably Tsukiyomi and did finish him with Susano'o. The only small bone of contention is whether Itachi could have broke CT by himself. If we find out he could then he is without doubt stronger than fit Nagato.


> Where does it say Shisui died when itachi was 11?


Shishui died 6 months after Itachi joined ANBU. The timeline makes perfect sense. We just do not have all the details. Itachi gained MS and joined Akatsuki at 11.
*Mu..*
Itachi joins ANBU at 10.5, 6 months later Shishui dies. It is even more clear in the VIZ version.


> My point never was that Tobirama's Water Wall was large, my point was that Tobirama's suiton abilities w/o a water source were overall better than Darui's or Kakashi's and I proved that.


No, because they used different jutsu. When they used the same jutsu of the same level it was the same size. Implying they had the same level of skill.


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## Reddan (Sep 18, 2011)

Turrin said:


> 1. When has A ever shown brains?
> 2. In Ch 554 is explicitly stated that A didn't know how Raikage got his scar


1. A was voted the leader of the shinobi alliance. A was able to work out how Hiraishin worked after seeing it just once. True Minato was even smarter and a step ahead, but A was still able to deduce everything about the jutsu. A was able to find a way to avoid Amaterasu.
2. Yes, but as shown he is intelligent and would try it. However as SM showed someone with A's reflexes would never be hit by his father.


> Like I said Maybe B could beat him or maybe he couldn't, but even if B could beat him I don't think it really makes him a better ninja than Sandaime Raikage. B only has a chance to win because he has thee ultimate counter to Sandaime Raikage's Raiton Shroud in the former of Samehada.


To be honest Samehada is the ultimate counter to a lot of things including Jinchuriki and people, who like to fire off flash elemental attacks. Bee also has more devastating attacks in the Bijuu blast, at least as much stamina, but probably more ( he has his own stamina + 8 tails, Sandaime Raikage only had equal to 8 tails.) He is one of the best swordsmen if not the best swordsman in the world and is stronger than A.


> B is a horrible match up for Sandaime Raikage. I think Sandaime Raikage could very well out perform B against mutual opponents.


Not really at all. For instance Sandaime Raikage has no defense against genjutsu. Bee has faster reflexes, better taijutsu skills, more devastating attacks, generally faster, stronger, more stamina. Bee is also very intelligent in battle countering Amaterasu and Hiraishin. We don't know about Raikage's intelligence granted, but the only thing he has over Bee is durability.


> Fact of the matter is we saw it used another way in the flashback. Sure we don't know the specifics but that doesn't change the fact that we saw it used another way.


No we are told how it works. We had a brief flash and then an explanation later.


> It was never implied it took time, Dan just hadn't used it yet.


Why do you think Dan was asking him them to finish him before he used it, if he was not charing it up?


> Still don't think they are better than the Sannin, White Fang, and Dan. Not to mention the village obviously had other Jonin which could handle people like Shizune, Inoichi, Fuu, and Torune who were never that amazing.


This is a baseless claim. To put Dan above Kakashi and Gai is without any foundation. Why did the village obviously have other jounin on the level of Fuu, Shizune and Torune? Shizune is the second best medical ninja in the entire world. Inoichi is best telepath in the world. Fuu and Torune were the best in root and able to deduce the weaknesses of Madara's jutsu. Touching Torune is deadly whilst Fuu can lay traps to capture the likes of Ao.


> You miss the point. Kinkaku is an example where the new generation overcomes the older not through a specific shinobi being stronger, but through a greater fighting force.


Kinkaku was an example of how with team work you can defeat a stronger opponent hence enough coppers being worth more than gold. However, KIn/Gin were the best of their generation and never faced the best of the new.


> The problem with your argument is for your argument to be correct there would need to be a person from each generation after Madara's that are stronger than Madara currently is now, but their isn't. So Madara is another example of where this rule doesn't apply.


Nope, because with each subsequent generation Madara gains strength. He steals more powers. During the time of Hashirama he had his brothers eyes, but was still too weak to win. Then in the time of Minato he had Hashirama's powers, but was once again too weak. Now he has added the Rinnengan, but is still going to be too weak in the end.


> And I think there are plenty of examples where this doesn't happen as well, but you and I disagree with whose strong or the better shinobi so what's the point? And I don't need to argue X > Y or anything like that because all I have to say is that your adding shit to the text which was never stated. All that was stated is the Younger Generation overall > Older Generation. If you can show me one statement that shows all the younger generation top tier shinobi always > all the old generations top tier shinobi, than i'll concede, but that never appears in the manga, not once.


There is never an outright statement, but there are many which carry this sentiment. 

A the future Raikage claiming Bee had more potential than he did.
Hiruzen the worlds strongest man thinking that not even he could compete with Orochimaru's talent.
Countless statements about how Naruto can do things Minato can't or wil surpass him, the old saviour of the world.
Statements about how Sasori surpassed the previous limit of 10 and can control 100 puppets.
7 swordsmen of the Mist latest generation are stronger than the previous one.
Orochimaru a guy, who killed two kages mentions how Sasuke's talent makes him average in comparison.
Sasori taking out the strongest Kazekage of the time Sandaime Kazkeage.
Hiruzen was said to be stronger than the previous strongest men in the world; Tobirama and Hashirama.


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## lathia (Sep 18, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> Minato sure didn't think he won, in fact he was sure he would never again win against Madara, also Madara had a casual chat with him after Minato stabbed him in the gut and was not the least bit worried. *I don't see how he ran away, he flat out left because he had nothing to accomplish there anymore.*
> 
> *Minato is the one who chose suicide as to not face him again*.



I'm sorry, but what is this nonsense? Do you know what plot is? The fact that Minato outright outclassed Madara in every field during their battle, is nothing but proof that Madara pose absolutely no threat to him at that time. Or that Kishimoto strokes to Minato more than to Madara :ho

This is where plot played a role. Madara fled because, his "attack on konoha" plan was completely halted by Minato. What stopped Minato from teleporting to Madara after he fled? Plot. What killed Minato? Plot. Not even the aftermath of Madara's plan could kill Minato (The Kyubi). Plot chose him to sacrifice himself to seal half of the Kyubi in him and the other into his son. 

You don't see how he ran away, but flat out left because he had nothing left to accomplish anymore? Are you serious? The reason he ran away, was because he had no back up plans. Everything came to a halt when Minato got involved, and thus ran away/fled/escaped/left/or whatever you want to perceive it as. Also, show me were Minato thought he could never win again, against Madara please.


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## jimbob631 (Sep 18, 2011)

lathia said:


> This is where plot played a role. Madara fled because, his "attack on konoha" plan was completely halted by Minato. What stopped Minato from teleporting to Madara after he fled? Plot. What killed Minato? Plot. Not even the aftermath of Madara's plan could kill Minato (The Kyubi). Plot chose him to sacrifice himself to seal half of the Kyubi in him and the other into his son.



People who blame plot tend to do it so their favorite character seems better than they are.  Plot is canon, your opinion isn't.

Watch me do what you did.  Madara didn't use genjutsu and izanagi because of plot.


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## hellohi (Sep 18, 2011)

Hashirama who was hyped beyond belief and even had the help of Tobirama(both young and in their assumed 'prime') still could not beat an old Sarutobi(+ Enma lol) who hasn't displayed any abilities worth while despite a double edged sword technique??

Doesn't make sense at all, so I'm gonna go with what Kabuto said when he stated that he surpassed Edo Tensei's previous users and assume that Orochimaru could not use them to their full potential.


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## Larry Uchiha (Sep 18, 2011)

This is kinda like when Freeza says he is the strongest in the galaxy!...


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## lathia (Sep 18, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> People who blame plot tend to do it so their favorite character seems better than they are.  Plot is canon, your opinion isn't.
> 
> Watch me do what you did.  Madara didn't use genjutsu and izanagi because of plot.




Exactly. I'm not blaming plot nor I'm I justifying Minato through it. The way Madara vs Minato played out is simple. Kishi wanted to portray Minato did his job and a well damn one at that. No, I'm not using MY opinion to justify anything. I hate "IF" scenarios, the plot is there for a reason. 

You either didn't read his post, or didn't understand what I was trying to say. 



			
				Seraphiel said:
			
		

> Minato sure didn't think he won, in fact he was sure he would never again win against Madara, also Madara had a casual chat with him after Minato stabbed him in the gut and was not the least bit worried. I don't see how he ran away, he flat out left because he had nothing to accomplish there anymore.
> 
> Minato is the one who chose suicide as to not face him again.



Plot is canon, Minato beat Madara and fled. To say Minato chose suicide as to not face him again is well....


*Spoiler*: __


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## Turrin (Sep 18, 2011)

arednad said:


> Not as strong as the triad. Nor as complete. The triad gives an incredibly powerful spiritual attack and an incredibly powerful physical attack.


This is totally opinion based, I'd take Kotoamatsukami over the triad hands down. I'll grant you that even I believe the triad is better than Kamui by itself, however Kamui is being used by a none poor blood Uchiha, so that may be the reason it has under performed to the triad. 



> That's fine, but it is foolish to dismiss an argument if you think it is 90% likely to be true on the 10% chance it is not. If you don't think it is the most logical then that is fine.


Except I didn't dismiss it, I just said I don't think its very likely that Orochimaru > Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama > EMS Madara and I think most fans of the manga would agree with me.



> No, because Orochimaru worked as hard as possible. He never slacked off and he himself invented 2 S-rank jutsu, perfected a third (reputed to be one of the strongest jutsu ever), trained a boss summon stronger than Gamabunta, gained a sword of Kusanagi and spent ages mastering jutsu. Even before Hiruzen realised the full extent of his deterioration he felt he was no much for his pupil


And the culmination of Orochimaru's work was Uchiha Sasuke's body, which he never obtained, which I why I don't think he achieved his true potential. Now if you think differently that's fine, because that's not my point.

My point is that there is nothing in the manga stating that he did, so there is no way to use the Orochimaru having greater potential argument to *factually* prove Orochimaru > Prime Hiruzen. 



> Kishimoto would not throw that line in to say Hiruzen was so popular people overrated him. He also has the feats ton show he was stronger than Tobirama and Hashirama.


Why is it so hard for you to imagine that people could have possibly overrated him? People overrated the Sannin and Hanzo.



> I will entertain Hashirama may have used special swords, but there have been no mention of them. If they were a huge part of his power then he would have been credited for using them. Instead he is renowned for Mokuten and controlling the tailed beast.


Dude nothing says Hashirama is not famous for his swords or scroll usage. We didn't even know he was famous for Bijuu control until late into Part II, Kishi doesn't reveal things about characters all at once.

The fact that we see Hashirama defeated Madara with a sword, implies his Kenjutsu is fairly good. The fact that Hashirama pulls out his scroll to use against an enemy of Madara + Kyuubi's caliber also suggest his scrolls have fairly potent abilities.



> The size of the arena would have effected Hiruzen more, since he would have less space to move about.


How can you possibly say it would effect Hiruzen more. We have seen Hashirama use Mokuton to create a forest nearly the size of the Kyuubi, what giant techniques has Old Hiruzen shown?



> Still he showed he could easily smash the Mokuten to pieces with Enma.


If Hashirama created branches the size of the ones he used to bind Kyuubi, there is no evidence that Enma could break through them.



> This still does not stop Hiruzen from killing him. Dealing with the tailed beast after maybe a problem. We do not know which Tailed Beast Hashirama had under his control. Nor could he fully control the Kyubi. Madara claims only the powers of the Uchiha could fully control the beast and Mito Uzumaki had to seal the beast to help Hashiram control it.
> 
> Nor do we know if he could make the beast fight for him or just restrain and b ring them under control. If the latter then he could not really use them to fight a single opponent since they would be attack everything in their paths until he restrained them again.



1. Obviously Hashirama having several tailed beast and/or the Kyuubi attacking Hiruzen and defending for him would make it dam hard for an old man to actually land a death blow on him

2. Orochimaru states Hashirama had full control, which obviously suggest he could command them in battle. Also Hashirama is stated to have full control of a the tailed beast just like B, Madara, and Yagura, which also suggests this



> This is all speculation though. At the end of the day Hashirama was said to be weaker than Hiruzen in the manga and the databook.


I think you missing the point, so let me try to sum it up for you.

1. We have seen Tensei be weaker than they were alive: Example Sasori
2. There are potential reason [whether speculative or not] that Hashirama could be weaker as a Tensei than when alive
3. Prime Hiruzen was reputed to be, by random people, stronger than Hashirama not Old Hiruzen

Therefore you are just making an assumption that Old Hiruzen could beat living Hashirama like he did Edo Hashirama an assumption which can not be factually supported by the manga cannon, considering that we have yet to see living Hashirama fight, in-order to tell us whether or not he's strong than his Tensei self, something we need to know to factually support your assumption.

Furthermore your use of Hiruzen hype as the strongest Hokage, doesn't factually support your assumption ether since the statement [even if we accept its correct] because it refers to prime Hiruzen, not old Hiruzen.

I hope I explained my point well enough this time 



> The manga never once says Edo Hashirama was a pathetic version of his old self, like it does for Hiruzen. However, we know who is stronger. Hiruzen was said in 3 different places to be stronger. This supports the theme of the Younger Generation Surpassing the Old and nothing in the manga has contradicted it.


It never said Sasori was a pathetic version of his living self ether, but we know living Sasori is stronger. Same thing for Gin, Kin, Sandaime Raikage, Asuma, etc...



> No the build up to was that he would have to face someone incredibly strong. He wanted Sasuke to take his eyes to ensure victory.


Itachi did not want Sasuke to face Madara, he wanted to keep Madara away from Sasuke that was the whole point of Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu



> This as much evidence as your theory on Edo Hashirama being much weaker. Madara's eyes are said to still exist. Madara claims the Rinnegan was his to beging with and he gave them to Nagato. We have yet to see Madara's EMS.


My "theory" [which was really just part of an example to make a point] has a shit ton more proof than yours which rests on a vague comment made by Madara.



> No this is where you are wrong. Itachi's rise in the ranks was not due to him being a double agent. Do you think someone like Danzo would trust an Uchiha on his word alone. Shishui had to give up his eye. Nor does this explain why Fugaku was so confident Itachi would be the pipe to connect them to the village. Fugaku did not plan for Itachi to become a double agent, but for some reason he thought his son would be able to infiltrate right into the centre of the government.


Make a theory thread and I'll discuss this with you, this really isn't the time or place



> No he just was not as fast as the other two. Itachi possible could have finished him with Amaterasu, probably Tsukiyomi and did finish him with Susano'o. The only small bone of contention is whether Itachi could have broke CT by himself. If we find out he could then he is without doubt stronger than fit Nagato.


Nagato's above Itachi's level imo since Nagato has the strongest Dojutsu, Uchiha and Senju powers, better Jutsu, and better feats than Itachi. I don't expect you to change my opinion on this, but your free to try, however the argument needs to be a-lot better than I think Itachi could win with X and I think Itachi could break CT

Though honestly I don't even really want to get into it.

[


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## Turrin (Sep 18, 2011)

QUOTE]Shishui died 6 months after Itachi joined ANBU. The timeline makes perfect sense. We just do not have all the details. Itachi gained MS and joined Akatsuki at 11.
chakra
Itachi joins ANBU at 10.5, 6 months later Shishui dies. It is even more clear in the VIZ version.[/QUOTE]
Where does it say Shisui died 6 months after Itachi joined the Anbu, it just says Itachi's actions got stranger. 



> No, because they used different jutsu. When they used the same jutsu of the same level it was the same size. Implying they had the same level of skill.


If Tobirama has shown a large water Jutsu how does that imply the same level of skill? You can't just assume Darui has a large water Jutsu of his own.

Also by the way Tobirama having the same suiton skills as someone with a suiton Kekkai Genkai isn't that bad ether.



> 1. A was voted the leader of the shinobi alliance. A was able to work out how Hiraishin worked after seeing it just once. True Minato was even smarter and a step ahead, but A was still able to deduce everything about the jutsu. A was able to find a way to avoid Amaterasu.
> 2. Yes, but as shown he is intelligent and would try it. However as SM showed someone with A's reflexes would never be hit by his father.


1. A was not voted Shinobi alliance leader for his brains
2. I don't think he would figure it out w/o knowledge. Your free to disagree, but nothing I have seen suggest he is that intelligent



> Not really at all. For instance Sandaime Raikage has no defense against genjutsu. Bee has faster reflexes, better taijutsu skills, more devastating attacks, generally faster, stronger, more stamina. Bee is also very intelligent in battle countering Amaterasu and Hiraishin. We don't know about Raikage's intelligence granted, but the only thing he has over Bee is durability.


And Sandaime Raikage has the ultra Hax Sealing Pot, which few people have knowledge of. 



> No we are told how it works. We had a brief flash and then an explanation later.


We saw how Sandaime used it in the flashback with hand-seal, than we saw Darui use it completely differently. How is it having two different usages so hard to accept?



> Why do you think Dan was asking him them to finish him before he used it, if he was not charing it up?


Because he wasn't in control of his own body



> This is a baseless claim. To put Dan above Kakashi and Gai is without any foundation. Why did the village obviously have other jounin on the level of Fuu, Shizune and Torune? Shizune is the second best medical ninja in the entire world. Inoichi is best telepath in the world. Fuu and Torune were the best in root and able to deduce the weaknesses of Madara's jutsu. Touching Torune is deadly whilst Fuu can lay traps to capture the likes of Ao.


I didn't put Dan above Kakashi and Gai, I said the overall combination of Sannin, Dan, White Fang seem stronger by Hype than the current generation of Jonin. Your free to disagree, because my overall point is that we don't know, enough to say for sure 



> Nope, because with each subsequent generation Madara gains strength. He steals more powers. During the time of Hashirama he had his brothers eyes, but was still too weak to win. Then in the time of Minato he had Hashirama's powers, but was once again too weak. Now he has added the Rinnengan, but is still going to be too weak in the end.


Madara gaining new powers does not negate the fact that he's from an older generation.



> There is never an outright statement, but there are many which carry this sentiment.


This is all that needs to be said, there is never an outright statement therefore your implying your own meaning to the text which is flawed. My interpretation of the text that it means overall makes farm more sense because their is no flaw in it even when it comes to Rikudo.


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## Reddan (Sep 19, 2011)

Turrin said:


> This is totally opinion based, I'd take Kotoamatsukami over the triad hands down. I'll grant you that even I believe the triad is better than Kamui by itself, however Kamui is being used by a none poor blood Uchiha, so that may be the reason it has under performed to the triad.


Kotoamatsukami can be used once every 10 years. Tsukiyomi can be used several times a day and can take out ninjas just as easily.


> Except I didn't dismiss it, I just said I don't think its very likely that Orochimaru > Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama > EMS Madara and I think most fans of the manga would agree with me.


This is because, they are used to reading stories where the legends of the past are much stronger than the current heroes right until the end. Kishimoto is not writing such a manga.


> And the culmination of Orochimaru's work was Uchiha Sasuke's body, which he never obtained, which I why I don't think he achieved his true potential. Now if you think differently that's fine, because that's not my point.


No the culmination of Orochimaru's work was Hydra Mode. Taking Sasuke was always impossible for him. He simply did not have the willpower to control Sasuke.


> My point is that there is nothing in the manga stating that he did, so there is no way to use the Orochimaru having greater potential argument to *factually* prove Orochimaru > Prime Hiruzen.


Not everything in the manga has to be directly stated. Kishimoto probably thinks people can infer these things.


> Why is it so hard for you to imagine that people could have possibly overrated him? People overrated the Sannin and Hanzo.


Yes he could have been overrated, but then he defeated Hashirama and Tobirama in his old age. He still won all the wars he participated in.


> Dude nothing says Hashirama is not famous for his swords or scroll usage. We didn't even know he was famous for Bijuu control until late into Part II, Kishi doesn't reveal things about characters all at once.


Not true at all. We learn about his Bijuu control right at the start of part II when we are introduced to Yamato.


> The fact that we see Hashirama defeated Madara with a sword, implies his Kenjutsu is fairly good. The fact that Hashirama pulls out his scroll to use against an enemy of Madara + Kyuubi's caliber also suggest his scrolls have fairly potent abilities.


Yes he was probably good with a sword, but there not his stand out powers. In the same way Muu is probably great with earth jutsu, but what makes him stand out is invisibiity and Jinton. Hashirama had his Mokuten and was easily countered by Hiruzen.


> How can you possibly say it would effect Hiruzen more. We have seen Hashirama use Mokuton to create a forest nearly the size of the Kyuubi, what giant techniques has Old Hiruzen shown?


It is hard to dodge attacks in a small enclosed area that in a wide open space. Yes Hashirama could use more Mokuten, but Hiruzen would have a far wide range to dodge. He does not need giant techniques, just to keep avoiding the Mokuten long enough to crack Hashirama on the head. Though, your point goes both ways. If the barrier stopped Hashirama using flashy jutsu then it probably did the same for Hiruzen.


> If Hashirama created branches the size of the ones he used to bind Kyuubi, there is no evidence that Enma could break through them.


Nothing suggest he cannot since Enma is said to be made of indestructible metal. 


> 1. Obviously Hashirama having several tailed beast and/or the Kyuubi attacking Hiruzen and defending for him would make it dam hard for an old man to actually land a death blow on him


Again it depends how he controlled them. It is implied he could bring make them heel to him, but not direct their attacks and make them fight for him.


> 2. Orochimaru states Hashirama had full control, which obviously suggest he could command them in battle. Also Hashirama is stated to have full control of a the tailed beast just like B, Madara, and Yagura, which also suggests this


No Orochimaru says he could control them like pets.


> I think you missing the point, so let me try to sum it up for you.
> 
> 1. We have seen Tensei be weaker than they were alive: Example Sasori
> 2. There are potential reason [whether speculative or not] that Hashirama could be weaker as a Tensei than when alive
> 3. Prime Hiruzen was reputed to be, by random people, stronger than Hashirama not Old Hiruzen


1. Sasori was said to be weaker. Unless said to be weaker should assume they are at their normal strength as Kabuto told us.
2. All other Tensei's that are weaker have been confirmed by Kishimoto. Sasori weaker due to becoming a puppet, Swordsmen due to lack of swords.
3. Old Hiruzen STILL beat Hashirama. They probably were not random people, but ninjas who saw both fight. In addition no where is Hashirama praised as being the strongest ninja of all time. He was merely the strongest of his era, implying that after his death he was indeed surpassed.


> Therefore you are just making an assumption that Old Hiruzen could beat living Hashirama like he did Edo Hashirama an assumption which can not be factually supported by the manga cannon, considering that we have yet to see living Hashirama fight, in-order to tell us whether or not he's strong than his Tensei self, something we need to know to factually support your assumption.


In the few cases where Edo zombies are weaker, Kishimoto has told us the reason and when this is the case like the swordsmen or Sasori. Edo Hashirama had the added bonus of being immortal et he still lost to Hiruzen.


> Furthermore your use of Hiruzen hype as the strongest Hokage, doesn't factually support your assumption ether since the statement [even if we accept its correct] because it refers to prime Hiruzen, not old Hiruzen.


Yes Prime Hiruzen was said to have surpassed the other Hokages, but even old Hiruzen was able to defeat them.


> It never said Sasori was a pathetic version of his living self ether, but we know living Sasori is stronger. Same thing for Gin, Kin, Sandaime Raikage, Asuma, etc...


No it did say Sasori was weaker.
*This pressure*
Sandaime Raikage, Kin/Gin were not weaker. Just, because they did not have weapons they had at some point in their lives does not make them weaker. 


> Itachi did not want Sasuke to face Madara, he wanted to keep Madara away from Sasuke that was the whole point of Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu


Of course Itachi wanted Sasuke to face Madara? Do you think Itachi was stupid enough to think Madara would play nice and not going after the Kyubi when he died? He wanted Sasuke to be the hero of Konoha and purposely set Madara up as his next target. He did not want Sasuke listening to Madara.


> My "theory" [which was really just part of an example to make a point] has a shit ton more proof than yours which rests on a vague comment made by Madara.


Not really, because there is not one comment about Hashirama being weaker.


> Make a theory thread and I'll discuss this with you, this really isn't the time or place


OK.


> Nagato's above Itachi's level imo since Nagato has the strongest Dojutsu, Uchiha and Senju powers, better Jutsu, and better feats than Itachi. I don't expect you to change my opinion on this, but your free to try, however the argument needs to be a-lot better than I think Itachi could win with X and I think Itachi could break CT
> 
> Though honestly I don't even really want to get into it.
> [


No point getting into this, but Itachi showed he had three techniques very capable of taking down Nagato. At best Nagato only had one technique to take down Itachi. Itach's two techniques are much faster and can be done almost immediately. But don't feel like getting into that.


----------



## Reddan (Sep 19, 2011)

Turrin said:


> QUOTE]Shishui died 6 months after Itachi joined ANBU. The timeline makes perfect sense. We just do not have all the details. Itachi gained MS and joined Akatsuki at 11.
> *This pressure*
> Itachi joins ANBU at 10.5, 6 months later Shishui dies. It is even more clear in the VIZ version.


Where does it say Shisui died 6 months after Itachi joined the Anbu, it just says Itachi's actions got stranger. 
[/QUOTE]
This is what the policeman says the day after Shishui's death.

*"It has been 6 months since you entered Anbu what you've said and done since then is too strange to overlook."*

Shishui had died and Itachi had been at Anbu for 6 months. He joined the ANbu at 10.5 making him 11. Like I said the timeline adds up.


> If Tobirama has shown a large water Jutsu how does that imply the same level of skill? You can't just assume Darui has a large water Jutsu of his own.


Tobirama then used a different water jutsu. However, when all three used the same jutsu it was the same size. We can only compare the three on the one jutsu they had in common. We have no idea how big Darui's water attack would.


> Also by the way Tobirama having the same suiton skills as someone with a suiton Kekkai Genkai isn't that bad ether.


Darui's forte is in his Storm Release and Black Lightning.


> 1. A was not voted Shinobi alliance leader for his brains
> 2. I don't think he would figure it out w/o knowledge. Your free to disagree, but nothing I have seen suggest he is that intelligent


It played a part. The way he intelligent and systematically analysed the situation was one of the reasons Mifune changed his mind.
I see you have changed your mind about A not showing a high level of intellect.


> And Sandaime Raikage has the ultra Hax Sealing Pot, which few people have knowledge of.


A does and A also has the same pot.
[QOTE]
We saw how Sandaime used it in the flashback with hand-seal, than we saw Darui use it completely differently. How is it having two different usages so hard to accept?[/QUOTE]
No we saw a glimpse of Sandaime Raikage using it. We then got an explanation on how it works. It is foolhardy to say Sandaime could use it differently when the all 5 of the weapons relied on word play.


> Because he wasn't in control of his own body


Wrong Dan was in control of his attacks. He had a general command to attack and kill, but how he did so was up to him. Asuma had no problem using the two best techniques he had available.


> I didn't put Dan above Kakashi and Gai, I said the overall combination of Sannin, Dan, White Fang seem stronger by Hype than the current generation of Jonin. Your free to disagree, because my overall point is that we don't know, enough to say for sure


You don't pay attention to Shikaku's words. Legends of the past are overrated. A quick comparison of the powers the Sannin had show that Gai and Kakashi are stronger than any individual member. There is no reason to assume Dan is better than Yamato. Fuu and Torune are very impressive as well. I even forgot to factor in Asuma and Kurenai. Kurenai is the best genjutsu user in Konoha.


> Madara gaining new powers does not negate the fact that he's from an older generation.


No, but in his own time he was at the top of the world. The fact that he must keep constantly stealing new powers to remain there is proof enough that the ninja world is evolving.


> This is all that needs to be said, there is never an outright statement therefore your implying your own meaning to the text which is flawed. My interpretation of the text that it means overall makes farm more sense because their is no flaw in it even when it comes to Rikudo.


Your interpretation of the text has little evidence and ignores how the strongest people in the world have constantly been surpassed by the next generation. Implying that even the best of the old generation eventually are surpassed.


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## shintebukuro (Sep 19, 2011)

Arednad said:
			
		

> The fact that he must keep constantly stealing new powers to remain there is proof enough that the ninja world is evolving.



Until he implanted the Rinnegan, he was actually weaker than his prime self.


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## Turrin (Sep 19, 2011)

arednad said:


> Kotoamatsukami can be used once every 10 years. Tsukiyomi can be used several times a day and can take out ninjas just as easily.


Again its a matter of opinion. The reason I would prefer Kotoamtsukami is because if I had MS I would not want not be spamming it anyway, I'd happy not use it for over a decade due to its drawbacks. So to me the 10 year recharge time wouldn't bother me.

In terms of abilities granted I'd also take Kotoamatsukami since with it, I could take control of other powerful Ninja to fight for me and getting these ninja to fight for me would not have the draw backs of spamming MS.



> This is because, they are used to reading stories where the legends of the past are much stronger than the current heroes right until the end. Kishimoto is not writing such a manga.


No its because its hard for people to imagine that EMS Madara who could summon the kyuubi is weaker than Orochimaru let alone to the degree you suggest he is.



> No the culmination of Orochimaru's work was Hydra Mode. Taking Sasuke was always impossible for him. He simply did not have the willpower to control Sasuke.


I disagree all of Orochimaru's work for many years was to obtain a shinobi who could be his vessel and polish that Shinobi into thee ultimate vessel through training him and imbuing him with powers such as CS. First this vessel was Kimmimaru which he failed to obtain and than he failed to obtain Sasuke as well. In the end Orochimaru was stuck with inferior vessels and never achieved the true potential of his master piece Jutsu Fuushi Tensei or even his work with CS.



> Not everything in the manga has to be directly stated. Kishimoto probably thinks people can infer these things.


Most Fans have inferred the exact opposite of what your stating. In-fact I haven't heard anyone else but you assert that Orochimaru > Prime Hiruzen > Old Hiruzen > Hashirama > EMS Madara.

So if Kishimoto is couting on his fans to infer this, he has done a horrible job, making it something that is easily infered, I.E. something like Itachi > Tenten.



> Yes he could have been overrated, but then he defeated Hashirama and Tobirama in his old age. He still won all the wars he participated in.


I don't see how Old Hiruzen defeating a Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama, proves he is stronger than them in his Prime, when we don't know how strong those 2 are when alive.



> Not true at all. We learn about his Bijuu control right at the start of part II when we are introduced to Yamato.


Yes we learn about it the second arc into Part II. Hashirama's character was introduced in the second arc of Part I, that means 3 arcs + Kakashi Gaiden Mini arc went by before we ever heard he was famous for Bijuu control.

Nothing is stopping Kishi from having Hashirama end up famous for something else, later down the line.



> Yes he was probably good with a sword, but there not his stand out powers. In the same way Muu is probably great with earth jutsu, but what makes him stand out is invisibiity and Jinton. Hashirama had his Mokuten and was easily countered by Hiruzen.


Hashirama stands out for his Bijuu control and his Mokuton. Due to the nature of the battle Hiruzen never faced Hashirama's greatest level of Mokuton and since Hashirama didn't have any of his Bijuu, Hiruzen never had to deal with his Bijuu control ether.

Scrolls and Swords may also be stand out powers for Hashirama we just haven't heard about them yet. In-fact it seems hinted at that Hashirama's scrolls are a major part of his fighting style since he is always depicted with at least one of them in flashbacks.



> It is hard to dodge attacks in a small enclosed area that in a wide open space. Yes Hashirama could use more Mokuten, but Hiruzen would have a far wide range to dodge. He does not need giant techniques, just to keep avoiding the Mokuten long enough to crack Hashirama on the head.


Hashirama can create an entire forest of Mokuton so he can create a scenario were there is no where to run regardless of if their is a barrier present or not. The only difference is w/o a barrier Hashirama can make the branches of his trees much thicker and thus logically harder to break.



> Though, your point goes both ways. If the barrier stopped Hashirama using flashy jutsu then it probably did the same for Hiruzen.


The difference is Hashirama is someone noted for his incredible stamina, while Old Hiruzen is noted for having relatively poor stamina. Furthermore Hashirama has shown he can create massive Mokuton forest, while Hiruzen hasn't shown anything on that scale. So there really is nothing that says if Hiruzen was outside the barrier he'd be able to create large scale flashy Jutsu.



> Nothing suggest he cannot since Enma is said to be made of indestructible metal.


1. I don't think its been stated that Enma is indestructible 
2. It's not a matter of Enma's durability, it's a matter of needing enough strength to snap a gigantic tree branch in half



> Again it depends how he controlled them. It is implied he could bring make them heel to him, but not direct their attacks and make them fight for him.


It's stated by Orochimaru he had total control over the tailed beast. His control of the tailed beast is also remarked to be true control over the tailed beast compared to Madara's, B's, and Yagura's. Finally DB III states that his,  _"bijuu-manipulating skills made him truly unparalleled in the shinobi world."_. I don't see how just being able to tel Bijuu's to sit would make him unrivaled in the Shinobi world.

You talk about how people should be able to infer basic concepts from the text, yet its pretty easier to infer that Kishi is implying Hashirama could manipulate the Bijuu to greater extent than just telling them to sit and that this ability made Hashirama harder to defeat in battle.

But again you can believe what you want, since that's not really even my point.



> No Orochimaru says he could control them like pets.


I'm looking at the official Viz translation and Orochimaru says this:

_"There was a time I sought the power of the shinobi who was not only the ultimate wood style ninjutsu master, but also...the one person who had *total control* over tailed beasts. Namely, the first hokage
_




> 1. Sasori was said to be weaker. Unless said to be weaker should assume they are at their normal strength as Kabuto told us.
> 2. All other Tensei's that are weaker have been confirmed by Kishimoto. Sasori weaker due to becoming a puppet, Swordsmen due to lack of swords.
> 3. Old Hiruzen STILL beat Hashirama. They probably were not random people, but ninjas who saw both fight. In addition no where is Hashirama praised as being the strongest ninja of all time. He was merely the strongest of his era, implying that after his death he was indeed surpassed.



1. When did Kabuto tell us that? 
2. Gin/Kin, Sandaime Raikage, and Asuma have been confirmed by Kabuto?
3. They are random people since we don't know who they are. 



> In the few cases where Edo zombies are weaker, Kishimoto has told us the reason and when this is the case like the swordsmen or Sasori. Edo Hashirama had the added bonus of being immortal et he still lost to Hiruzen.


No Kishimoto hasn't told us this in the case of every tensei that was weaker.

Basically what this comes down to is you can't prove living Hashirama is weaker than or equal to Edo Hashirama? W/o that proof this is basically just your opinion, one that I and like 90% of the fan base disagree with.



> No it did say Sasori was weaker.
> to block B's attack


It was implied Sasori was weaker, but never outright stated. If implications count than I think Hashirama going from beating EMS Madara to having his leg easily blown off by Old Hiruzen is an even more obvious implication that he was weaker as a Tensei.



> Sandaime Raikage, Kin/Gin were not weaker. Just, because they did not have weapons they had at some point in their lives does not make them weaker.


Yes it does make them weaker. 



> Of course Itachi wanted Sasuke to face Madara? Do you think Itachi was stupid enough to think Madara would play nice and not going after the Kyubi when he died? He wanted Sasuke to be the hero of Konoha and purposely set Madara up as his next target. He did not want Sasuke listening to Madara.


It's stated in the manga that he wanted to keep Sasuke away from Madara, so I don't even see the point of debating this.


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## Turrin (Sep 19, 2011)

> No point getting into this, but Itachi showed he had three techniques very capable of taking down Nagato. At best Nagato only had one technique to take down Itachi. Itach's two techniques are much faster and can be done almost immediately. But don't feel like getting into that.


So your argument is that in your opinion Itachi could beat Nagato with X, yeah there is no point in getting into this.



> This is what the policeman says the day after Shishui's death.
> 
> "It has been 6 months since you entered Anbu what you've said and done since then is too strange to overlook."
> 
> Shishui had died and Itachi had been at Anbu for 6 months. He joined the ANbu at 10.5 making him 11. Like I said the timeline adds up.


When was it stated he was 10 1/2 when he entered the Anbu?



> Tobirama then used a different water jutsu. However, when all three used the same jutsu it was the same size. We can only compare the three on the one jutsu they had in common. We have no idea how big Darui's water attack would.


LOL this makes no sense. Darui not showing a bigger suiton than Tobirama's means as things stand Tobirama has better feats of none water source suiton its as simple as that.



> Darui's forte is in his Storm Release and Black Lightning.


Yes and Storm Release is Suiton + Raiton



> It played a part. The way he intelligent and systematically analysed the situation was one of the reasons Mifune changed his mind.
> I see you have changed your mind about A not showing a high level of intellect


A has shown good leadership qualities, not high intellect their is a big difference. 



> A does and A also has the same pot.


A doesn't use the pot in battle



> No we saw a glimpse of Sandaime Raikage using it. We then got an explanation on how it works. It is foolhardy to say Sandaime could use it differently when the all 5 of the weapons relied on word play.


A glimpse yet their was no break in the flashback.



> Wrong Dan was in control of his attacks. He had a general command to attack and kill, but how he did so was up to him. Asuma had no problem using the two best techniques he had available.


We are told the edo's automatically respond to threats accordingly, if Dan was pushed far enough it stands to reason his body would respond to the threat and automatically enter Ghost Mode. That's why Dan wanted Chouza to seal him before that happened.



> You don't pay attention to Shikaku's words. Legends of the past are overrated. A quick comparison of the powers the Sannin had show that Gai and Kakashi are stronger than any individual member. There is no reason to assume Dan is better than Yamato. Fuu and Torune are very impressive as well. I even forgot to factor in Asuma and Kurenai. Kurenai is the best genjutsu user in Konoha.


Prove that the newer generation Jonin > older generation Jonin. You can't do it because we don't know enough. That's my main point.



> No, but in his own time he was at the top of the world. The fact that he must keep constantly stealing new powers to remain there is proof enough that the ninja world is evolving.


Madara is steeling powers because he wants to surpass or equal a Shinobi from a generation before his: Rikudo Sannin. It has nothing to do with being at the top of the newer generation or not.



> Your interpretation of the text has little evidence and ignores how the strongest people in the world have constantly been surpassed by the next generation. Implying that even the best of the old generation eventually are surpassed.


My interpretation of the text is what's stated in the text. The text just says Younger Gen > Older Gen, it does not make the distinctions your trying to make.


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## principito (Sep 19, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> So... how exactly was Sarutobi regarded as the strongest Kage when he still had this guy running around?
> 
> Sarutobi obviously didn't know Shiki Fujin back then, over 17 years ago, which is the only technique that could take out the Raikage. Plus, I very much doubt he could compete with him when it comes to speed, as well.



Power inflation dude..... power inflation


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## Reddan (Sep 19, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Again its a matter of opinion. The reason I would prefer Kotoamtsukami is because if I had MS I would not want not be spamming it anyway, I'd happy not use it for over a decade due to its drawbacks. So to me the 10 year recharge time wouldn't bother me.
> In terms of abilities granted I'd also take Kotoamatsukami since with it, I could take control of other powerful Ninja to fight for me and getting these ninja to fight for me would not have the draw backs of spamming MS.


We will disagree on this.


> No its because its hard for people to imagine that EMS Madara who could summon the kyuubi is weaker than Orochimaru let alone to the degree you suggest he is.


Madara summons Kyubi, Orochimaru summons Hashirama and Tobirama.


> I disagree all of Orochimaru's work for many years was to obtain a shinobi who could be his vessel and polish that Shinobi into thee ultimate vessel through training him and imbuing him with powers such as CS. First this vessel was Kimmimaru which he failed to obtain and than he failed to obtain Sasuke as well. In the end Orochimaru was stuck with inferior vessels and never achieved the true potential of his master piece Jutsu Fuushi Tensei or even his work with CS.


Not true at all. Orochimaru's initial intention with his body transfer was to gain immortality and nullify the effects of age. He was not obsessed with gaining a stronger body. He would never have been able to take over someone as strong as Sasuke. That was the limit of the jutsu. 


> Most Fans have inferred the exact opposite of what your stating. In-fact I haven't heard anyone else but you assert that Orochimaru > Prime Hiruzen > Old Hiruzen > Hashirama > EMS Madara.


Yes, because they like to cling to old heroes being stronger than they are. 


> So if Kishimoto is couting on his fans to infer this, he has done a horrible job, making it something that is easily infered, I.E. something like Itachi > Tenten.


People had no problem believing Orochimaru was stronger than Hashirama and Tobirama in part 1. People just leap onto every new feat they see. Just like until SM Naruto beat Sandaime Raikage people were claiming SM Naruto was not weaker than the kages. I remember people here thinking that Bee was way above Itachi's league, though Kishimoto had made the opposite very clear.


> I don't see how Old Hiruzen defeating a Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama, proves he is stronger than them in his Prime, when we don't know how strong those 2 are when alive.


We are not told they are weaker than they were alive. In fact it is implied they are stronger since they are now immortal. If Old Hiruzen was stronger than them then you can bet he was stronger in his prime too.


> Yes we learn about it the second arc into Part II. Hashirama's character was introduced in the second arc of Part I, that means 3 arcs + Kakashi Gaiden Mini arc went by before we ever heard he was famous for Bijuu control.


This is true, but that has been emphasised constantly from then on. Still no mention of swords. It is possible it may come up, but they I doubt they will be on the level you expect.


> Nothing is stopping Kishi from having Hashirama end up famous for something else, later down the line.


This is true, but it is just not likely. 


> Hashirama stands out for his Bijuu control and his Mokuton. Due to the nature of the battle Hiruzen never faced Hashirama's greatest level of Mokuton and since Hashirama didn't have any of his Bijuu, Hiruzen never had to deal with his Bijuu control ether.
> 
> Scrolls and Swords may also be stand out powers for Hashirama we just haven't heard about them yet. In-fact it seems hinted at that Hashirama's scrolls are a major part of his fighting style since he is always depicted with at least one of them in flashbacks.


Again this is possible, but he was never said to be weaker. If he was then Hiruzen would have commented on it.


> Hashirama can create an entire forest of Mokuton so he can create a scenario were there is no where to run regardless of if their is a barrier present or not. The only difference is w/o a barrier Hashirama can make the branches of his trees much thicker and thus logically harder to break.


Not true in an open field Hiruzen always has somewhere to run. Not to mention the Enma cage perfectly protected him from Mokuten.


> The difference is Hashirama is someone noted for his incredible stamina, while Old Hiruzen is noted for having relatively poor stamina. Furthermore Hashirama has shown he can create massive Mokuton forest, while Hiruzen hasn't shown anything on that scale. So there really is nothing that says if Hiruzen was outside the barrier he'd be able to create large scale flashy Jutsu.


Hiruzen gave up on using flash jutsu, because he was facing Edo Tensei. The earth wall he used was fairly impressive considering he spat it out. In an open field he would be able to use natural earth.


> 1. I don't think its been stated that Enma is indestructible
> 2. It's not a matter of Enma's durability, it's a matter of needing enough strength to snap a gigantic tree branch in half


It is Hiruzen tells to transform to his indestructible staff.


> It's stated by Orochimaru he had total control over the tailed beast. His control of the tailed beast is also remarked to be true control over the tailed beast compared to Madara's, B's, and Yagura's. Finally DB III states that his,  _"bijuu-manipulating skills made him truly unparalleled in the shinobi world."_. I don't see how just being able to tel Bijuu's to sit would make him unrivaled in the Shinobi world.
> 
> 
> You talk about how people should be able to infer basic concepts from the text, yet its pretty easier to infer that Kishi is implying Hashirama could manipulate the Bijuu to greater extent than just telling them to sit and that this ability made Hashirama harder to defeat in battle.
> ...


 I did not have that volume with me. Fair enough he could control the Biju.


> 1. When did Kabuto tell us that?
> 2. Gin/Kin, Sandaime Raikage, and Asuma have been confirmed by Kabuto?
> 3. They are random people since we don't know who they are.


1. Meant Kankuro
2. They were not weaker. Edo Tensei regeneration made up for any loss of weapon.
3. Just, because we do not know who it was does not mean they are random. They could be Danzo and the Elders.


> No Kishimoto hasn't told us this in the case of every tensei that was weaker.


He told us Sasori was weaker and that the 7 swordsman of the Mist were weaker without their swords.


> Basically what this comes down to is you can't prove living Hashirama is weaker than or equal to Edo Hashirama? W/o that proof this is basically just your opinion, one that I and like 90% of the fan base disagree with.


Kabuto explained the technique and said the brough back zombies are as strong as the original. Unless stated otherwise there is no real reason to doubt this.


> It was implied Sasori was weaker, but never outright stated. If implications count than I think Hashirama going from beating EMS Madara to having his leg easily blown off by Old Hiruzen is an even more obvious implication that he was weaker as a Tensei.


No it just shows how incredibly skilled Hiruzen is. 


> Yes it does make them weaker.


No, because they can regenerate.


> It's stated in the manga that he wanted to keep Sasuke away from Madara, so I don't even see the point of debating this.


Where? It is stated he wanted Sasuke to be the hero of Konoha and protect it. Do you think Itachi really believed Madara would never attack Konoha again?


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## Reddan (Sep 19, 2011)

Turrin said:


> So your argument is that in your opinion Itachi could beat Nagato with X, yeah there is no point in getting into this.


I have more arguments, but don't want to get into now.


> When was it stated he was 10 1/2 when he entered the Anbu?


Itachi became a Chunin at 10. 

Fugaku says this

*"it's been six months since your promotion to Chunin. You've already come so far."*

Couple of pages later he says.
*
"If this mission is succesful, entrance into the Anbu black ops will be assured.*"


> LOL this makes no sense. Darui not showing a bigger suiton than Tobirama's means as things stand Tobirama has better feats of none water source suiton its as simple as that.


When they used the same technique they created the same level of water. Tobirama then used another water technique on top of that. Of course two water techniques are going to produce more water than one.


> Yes and Storm Release is Suiton + Raiton


Yes and so he has to spend time mastering his KG, his swordsmanship and black lightning. 


> A has shown good leadership qualities, not high intellect their is a big difference.


Working out how Hiraishin works after seeing it just once is a very high level of intellect. 


> A doesn't use the pot in battle


Either does Sandaime Raikage. Did you see him use it in his final battle?


> A glimpse yet their was no break in the flashback.


We are told how the pot works. To ignore that is to make up whatever you want. 


> We are told the edo's automatically respond to threats accordingly, if Dan was pushed far enough it stands to reason his body would respond to the threat and automatically enter Ghost Mode. That's why Dan wanted Chouza to seal him before that happened.


The truth is we don't fully know why Dan did not use it yet and it's not an important enough point to keep arguing about.


> Prove that the newer generation Jonin > older generation Jonin. You can't do it because we don't know enough. That's my main point.


I already showed you Gai and Kakashi are better than the Sannin were.


> Madara is steeling powers because he wants to surpass or equal a Shinobi from a generation before his: Rikudo Sannin. It has nothing to do with being at the top of the newer generation or not.


Then why does he keep losing to the New Generation?


> My interpretation of the text is what's stated in the text. The text just says Younger Gen > Older Gen, it does not make the distinctions your trying to make.


No the text says one by one the Younger Generation will surpass the Old.


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## GucciBandana (Sep 19, 2011)

trondah said:


> In every sense. He stopped him physically, took away his weapon (kyuubi) and foiled his plan. Madara pretty much ran away to fight another day, but as we all know Minato has foiled his future plan too, by sealing kyuubi inside Naruto.
> 
> Please tell me in what way Minato lost? He 100% defeated Madara with some truly incredible feats. What exactly did Madara succeed in?
> 
> ...



yes Minato stopped Madara's plan, that is what he did, Hiruzen stopped Orochimaru's invasion to Konoha as well. both of them save Konoha, and died. Minato fears Madara, and couldn't really do anything to *him* to prevent him from coming back in the future, giving up his life so his son will have a chance in the future. while Hiruzen managed to seal Orochimaru's arms. I don't see how if people say Minato beat Madara, then how did Hiruzen "lose" to Orochimaru??


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## Turrin (Sep 19, 2011)

arednad said:


> We will disagree on this.


Which is my point its a matter of opinion



> Madara summons Kyubi, Orochimaru summons Hashirama and Tobirama.


Kyuubi > Edo Hashirama and Tobirama against 99% of the enemies Madara or Orochimaru could face. And its not just summoning the Kyuubi, that makes people not believe this it's also that he had a highest level of the Sharingan Dojutsu a Dojutsu which the Data-book states had a power Orochimaru could not comprehend. 




> Not true at all. Orochimaru's initial intention with his body transfer was to gain immortality and nullify the effects of age. He was not obsessed with gaining a stronger body. He would never have been able to take over someone as strong as Sasuke. That was the limit of the jutsu.


I don't care what Orochimaru's initial intentions was or if he could have actually got Sasuke's body or not.

What I care about is that Orochimaru never achieved his full potential. With Fuushi Tensei Orochimaru should have been able to get a stronger vessel than the genryoumaru and he should have been able to prep that vessel by giving him CS [Kimmimaru for example]. The fact that he didn't achieve this says to me that Orochimaru never achieved his full potential.



> People had no problem believing Orochimaru was stronger than Hashirama and Tobirama in part 1. People just leap onto every new feat they see. Just like until SM Naruto beat Sandaime Raikage people were claiming SM Naruto was not weaker than the kages. I remember people here thinking that Bee was way above Itachi's league, though Kishimoto had made the opposite very clear.


So your saying people should ignore Part II feats, statements, hype? 



> This is true, but that has been emphasised constantly from then on. Still no mention of swords. It is possible it may come up, but they I doubt they will be on the level you expect.
> This is true, but it is just not likely.


I don't think you can say its not likely when the same thing has already happened with Hashirama, I.E. he was said to be famous for his Mokuton in Part I, than in Part II [3+ arcs later] he's said to also be famous for his Bijuu controlling abilities. The fact that its already happened before should show that it's at least just as likely to happen as anything else.



> Not true in an open field Hiruzen always has somewhere to run. Not to mention the Enma cage perfectly protected him from Mokuten.


Hashirama can turn said open field into a giant forest, so Hiruzen would have no where to run. Even the DB comments on how Yamato if he,_ "he feels like it, he can even turn a desert into a forest!!"_ and Yamato is the poor man's Hashirama.



> Hiruzen gave up on using flash jutsu, because he was facing Edo Tensei. The earth wall he used was fairly impressive considering he spat it out. In an open field he would be able to use natural earth.


Again you seem to miss my point. We know for a fact that Hashirama has a large scale Jutsu he could have used if not for the barrier, your just speculating that Hiruzen could do the same. The difference being fact vs speculation.



> It is Hiruzen tells to transform to his indestructible staff.


Okay, though i'm pretty sure that's a hyperbola just like when Itachi was called invincible thanks to Susano'o, than later Itachi himself states ever Jutsu has a weakness, implying even he is not invincible due to Susano'o.



> I did not have that volume with me. Fair enough he could control the Biju.


So if you agree he could control Bijuu and we know he had multiple Bijuu under his command, how can you say Edo Hashirama wasn't weaker than living prime Hashirama?



> Kabuto explained the technique and said the brough back zombies are as strong as the original. Unless stated otherwise there is no real reason to doubt this.


When did Kabuto say this? 



> No, because they can regenerate.


I don't think regeneration makes up for the loss of several tailed beasts and I think most people would agree with me



> Where? It is stated he wanted Sasuke to be the hero of Konoha and protect it. Do you think Itachi really believed Madara would never attack Konoha again?


Madara, _"In order to kill me, Itachi placed a jutsu in you...or at least to keep me away from you."_

Madara,_ "Do you know why Itachi inserted the Amaterasu into your eye? It's because Itachi never wanted us to meet, to talk."_

Madara,_ "And just in case I did know he planned to silence me with Amaterasu."_

There that's three times that it's stated that Itachi didn't want Madara and Sasuke to meet, talk, or fight. As for Madara attacking Konoha he believed that Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu would be enough to defeat Madara. And if that failed if he was going to rely on anyone to protect the village from Madara it would be Naruto and not Sasuke, just like the DB states:

DBIII, _"while carrying out his task as a member of Akatsuki, Itachi became certain of one thing: Naruto would be able to save Sasuke, as well as the village. This is why he entrusts his feelings to him, together with a great hope..."_



> Itachi became a Chunin at 10.
> 
> Fugaku says this
> 
> ...


I don't have the time to check out the time line right now, but I'll check up on this when I get the chance.



> When they used the same technique they created the same level of water. Tobirama then used another water technique on top of that. Of course two water techniques are going to produce more water than one.


True, but once again Darui has not shown a water technique on the scale of water dragon missile w/o a water source, so Tobirama still has the better feats.

But honestly I don't care, so think what you will



> Yes and so he has to spend time mastering his KG, his swordsmanship and black lightning.


What does this have to do with anything? My point was that having a Suiton type Kekkai Genkai automatically means Darui has a very high affinity for water, therefore him being able to pull of a Suiton w/o a water source on the same scale as Tobirama's isn't that big of a deal imo.



> Working out how Hiraishin works after seeing it just once is a very high level of intellect.


Looking back Raikage didn't figure out anything, the fodder shinobi with him tells Raikage that FTG formula is written on the yellow paper wrapped around the Kunai:
this attack



> Either does Sandaime Raikage. Did you see him use it in his final battle?


Okay yes Sandaime does use it, we saw him use it in the manga, jesus. As for his final battle we saw 1 panel of that before it even started, how the F can you tell what he used or not from that 1 panel.



> We are told how the pot works. To ignore that is to make up whatever you want.


And we are shown it working another way which involves hand-seals, to ignore that is to ignore cannon.



> The truth is we don't fully know why Dan did not use it yet and it's not an important enough point to keep arguing about


Finally, thank you for admitting that you don't know.



> I already showed you Gai and Kakashi are better than the Sannin were


No you didn't. You argument was that since the Sannin lost to Prime Hanzo before they even became famous for their strength and Kakashi/Gai could beat old rusty Hanzo, Kakashi and Gai are therefore better than the Sannin. Please tell me you see the flaws in that argument.



> Then why does he keep losing to the New Generation?


He lost to the new generation once and his enemy was Fing Minato and he was in a weaker condition than he was in his Prime. Since than he has defeated Yagura, Fuu + Torune, Toyed with Team 7 and Team Hinata, Toyed with Sasuke and Naruto multiple times, and defeat Konan. So don't make it sound like the newer generation keeps beating his ass.



> No the text says one by one the Younger Generation will surpass the Old.


The statement your referring to was just in reference to Kakuzu.

Kakashi says,_ "One by One the new generation will catch up to *you* [Kakuzu] and they will all surpass *you* [Kakuzu] in the end"_

So basically Kakashi was saying that he felt all the Rookies had the potential to surpass Kakuzu specifically.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 19, 2011)

Anyone who believes Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage stopped reading the manga after Part 1. We all should have done that so I cant blame them for not knowing he was greatly surpassed.


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## Larry Uchiha (Sep 19, 2011)

Cant you guys just accept that the manga is inconsistent, and that Kishi as no qualms what so ever about retconning it to suit his plot needs


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## shintebukuro (Sep 19, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Anyone who believes Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage stopped reading the manga after Part 1. We all should have done that so I cant blame them for not knowing he was greatly surpassed.



Or maybe they think Kishimoto will reprise and fulfill something that he initially said?

It would be just as easy to retcon his strength back up if he wanted. It just depends on the author's will.


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## GucciBandana (Sep 19, 2011)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Anyone who believes Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage stopped reading the manga after Part 1. We all should have done that so I cant blame them for not knowing he was greatly surpassed.



Kishi stopped reading the manga after Part 1 as well I assume lol.


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## wstickman (Sep 19, 2011)

He has a monkey


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