# King versus Katakuri



## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2021)

Location: Rooftop


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## Soca (Aug 27, 2021)

Katakuri.

King gotta show something to prove he can even touch him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 12 | Winner 1


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## Eustathios (Aug 27, 2021)

King, if he pushes Zoro to his limit.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 27, 2021)

By hype, you'd say King.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Klue (Aug 27, 2021)

Soca said:


> Katakuri.
> 
> King gotta show something to prove he can even touch him.



His name is King though. Gangsta ass name. He don't gotta show shit.

Reactions: Funny 10 | Winner 3


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## Mickey Mouse (Aug 27, 2021)

To early for this topic. @A Optimistic

Reactions: Agree 7


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## Ezekjuninor (Aug 27, 2021)

King needs more feats but when he pushes post rooftop Zoro to his limits it'll look a lot more impressive Katakuri losing to WCI Luffy unless anyone really thinks start of Wano Luffy is as strong as current Zoro.


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## Sonatra (Aug 27, 2021)

Yeah too early but I'd say the signs point to King for now. 

Based on what was shown by Marco against King, I don't think Katakuri has the firepower to bring him down. Yeah he's got FS, speed, and logia intangibility; but as we saw with Marco, even if you blitz King it doesn't mean much...

I'd like to see more from King's offence and his hellfire, but i'm leaning to King.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2021)

It’s never to early to discuss powerlevels

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 5 | Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Soca (Aug 27, 2021)

Vs threads have come a long way from what I remember. Instead of concrete answers to the guy who has feats we have a lot of ifs to the guy who barely has any. Sheesh. It's ok to choose Katakuri for now guys, King is gonna get feats

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 27, 2021)

Mochi man until we actually know more about King's haki and other abilities.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Alex Payne (Aug 27, 2021)

Not trying to stir shit up but genuinely pondering - did we ever have Luffy's Previous Arc Boss being stronger than Zoro's Current Arc Boss?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Amol (Aug 27, 2021)

Katakuri for now.
Regardless of who wins I put both of them to the same general level anyway.

Reactions: Agree 8


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## Brian (Aug 27, 2021)

i dunno Katakuri was more impressive this chapter

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mickey Mouse (Aug 27, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> It’s never to early to discuss powerlevels


 


Soca said:


> Vs threads have come a long way from what I remember. Instead of concrete answers to the guy who has feats we have a lot of ifs to the guy who barely has any. Sheesh. It's ok to choose Katakuri for now guys, King is gonna get feats


Your right......this is your fault.


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## Yonatan (Aug 27, 2021)

Katakuri based on his mastery of CoO and his Paramecia DF. I feel like Zoan fruit users can't compare.


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## Mylesime (Aug 27, 2021)

Katakuri is underrated.
He threw the fight, Brulee was miraculously at the right place, at the right time when Gear4 boundman ended, he had to take a break to go eat before that....
Could match Snakeman after future sight was acquired by Luffy, but somehow didn't stab him with Mogura in the head while in base for 12 hours.
Both commanders should be close anyway. King's fight just started. So if one uses Katakuri's feats against him without context, at least be consistent....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## charles101 (Aug 27, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Katakuri is underrated.
> He threw the fight, Brulee was miraculously at the right place, at the right time when Gear4 boundman ended, he had to take a break to go eat before that....
> Coulld match Snakeman after future sight was acquired by Luffy, but somehow didn't stab him with Mogura in the head while in base.
> Both commanders should be close anyway. King's fight just started. So if one uses Katakuri's feats against without context, at least be consistent....


He's shet on because he's BM's FM

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Aug 27, 2021)

This guy?


He'd take King high to extreme diff. Assuming he isn't held back by plot and just.....not using his powers and weapon for any discernible reason.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## Soca (Aug 27, 2021)

Mickey Mouse said:


> Your right......this is your fault.


I ain't do nuffin


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## Ren. (Aug 27, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> Location: Rooftop


For now Katakuri.


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## Perrin (Aug 27, 2021)

Alex Payne said:


> Not trying to stir shit up but genuinely pondering - did we ever have Luffy's Previous Arc Boss being stronger than Zoro's Current Arc Boss?


Most of the time isn’t it?
Buggy > Mihawk
Don Krieg > Hatchan
Crocodile > Ohm
Enel > Kaku
Lucci > Ryuma zombie
Moria > Pacifista

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## charles101 (Aug 27, 2021)

Ren. said:


> For now Katakuri.


Missed that. He'll breath this rooftop air faster than King covered up with that leather


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## Perrin (Aug 27, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> This guy?
> 
> 
> He'd take King high to extreme diff. Assuming he isn't held back by plot and just.....not using his powers and weapon for any discernible reason.


That’s an avatar in the making. What a beast.
Look at him using gura bubble too.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## Ren. (Aug 27, 2021)

charles101 said:


> Missed that. He'll breath this rooftop air faster than King covered up with that leather


Twist, Katakuri arrives to assist Luffy vs Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soca (Aug 27, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Twist, Katakuri arrives to assist Luffy vs Kaido.


I am on board for that show.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ren. (Aug 27, 2021)

Soca said:


> I am on board for that show.


I want all the high tiers to do a mob Rush on Kaido.



And Kaido be like: more, I need more.  @Duhul10

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## ~Avant~ (Aug 27, 2021)

My boy Katakuri got this one.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Aug 27, 2021)

Perrin said:


> That’s an avatar in the making. What a beast.
> Look at him using gura bubble too.


For fucking sure. I was  just waiting for the Viz scans to cut out him, Law and Oden.


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## Perrin (Aug 27, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> For fucking sure. I was  just waiting for the Viz scans to cut out him, Law and Oden.


To replace ur current one with naruto / someone / sasuke?


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## Perrin (Aug 27, 2021)

Katakuri: 
Fights main opponent for 12 hours, takes dozens of hits, only once he concedes defeat does he himself choose to fall on his back.
King:
Main opponents first hit on him.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 2


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Aug 27, 2021)

Perrin said:


> To replace ur current one with naruto / someone / sasuke?


Or a dope Sakura avy.


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## Draffut (Aug 27, 2021)

King hasn't done anything near Katakuri's level yet.

Really it won't even be close until we see hybrid form.


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## Soca (Aug 27, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Katakuri:
> Fights main opponent for 12 hours, takes dozens of hits, only once he concedes defeat does he himself choose to fall on his back.
> King:
> Main opponents first hit on him.


King reminded me of Tupac here, just annoyed as hell

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## Angrel-San (Aug 27, 2021)

Mickey Mouse said:


> To early for this topic. @A Optimistic


Agreed.

King is just starting.


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## Yumi Zoro (Aug 27, 2021)

If King stand there for a week, katakuri still wont be able to make him bleed. like the fuck katakuri is very overrated. what is mochi compared to a god?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Mickey Mouse (Aug 27, 2021)

Soca said:


> I ain't do nuffin


THATS THE POINT!!!!!!!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Perrin (Aug 27, 2021)

Mickey Mouse said:


> THATS THE POINT!!!!!!!


Savage

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Brian (Aug 27, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Twist, Katakuri arrives to assist Luffy vs Kaido.



he replaces Yamato as the 'dog'


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## Lawliet (Aug 27, 2021)

Probably King


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## blueWaves (Aug 27, 2021)

Realistically, this is a close fight. I'm going to give to Katakuri of the caveat that King needs to show more. I wouldn't be surprised if King is stronger of the two, let's just see him more in action, that's all.


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## MrPopo (Aug 27, 2021)

I like Katakuri more so he wins


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Aug 27, 2021)

Due to the nature of the mink medicine, King is going to lose to Zoro on a time limit, he's not gonna be as impressive as Katakuri.


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## Ezekjuninor (Aug 27, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> Due to the nature of the mink medicine, King is going to lose to Zoro on a time limit, he's not gonna be as impressive as Katakuri.


The time limit doesn't matter. A battle between swordsmen has been shown to be short. If King wanted to he could just fly and stall out Zoro's time limit and if anything Katakuri failing to kill base Luffy after several hours is unimpressive.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Stilzkin (Aug 27, 2021)

The length of fights has to be ignored.

Katakuri and Luffy fighting for hours makes no sense. Are Luffy and Kaidou going to fight for hours?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sonatra (Aug 27, 2021)

Soca said:


> King reminded me of Tupac here, just annoyed as hell



The Plot Thickens:  King is actually Tupac behind the mask.


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## Ruse (Aug 27, 2021)

King extreme diff


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## Great Potato (Aug 27, 2021)

Need to see more from King. Have to with Katakuri from what we've seen so far, but King still has hybrid up his sleeve.

Only thing I can say is King is more durable at this point. Damage soak seems to be the bread and butter of the Calamities and I wouldn't see Katakuri looking so clean if a Purgatory Onigiri landed, but the trade-off is Katakuri is much more evasive and King isn't really showing anything so far to work around that.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## xenos5 (Aug 27, 2021)

I want to see what King can do with his Haki. It was kinda embarrassing how most of the F6 (except Ulti and Who’s Who) didn’t show any Haki before going down. Queen actually being shown blocking with Armament on his arm this chapter gives me some hope the Calamities will be better in that regard. But just having Haki and being exceptional at one of the Haki types are two different things of course. For now while King may have better base durability than Kata I still favor Block Mochi for its density.

Reactions: Like 3


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## juju15112 (Aug 27, 2021)

King would body him

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## Moldrew (Aug 27, 2021)

It’s likely that they’re comparable. Leaning toward King based on hype, but we’ll probably never know for sure. Might as well vote based on popularity 

They do have some interesting parallels in their roles and design elements. Whoever wins, it would be close.


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## blueframe01 (Aug 27, 2021)

Its hard to judge especially since Kata was bullying Luffy until he stabbed himself with his trident. The results would undoubtfully been different had he gone 100% from the start


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 27, 2021)

Alex Payne said:


> Not trying to stir shit up but genuinely pondering - did we ever have Luffy's Previous Arc Boss being stronger than Zoro's Current Arc Boss?


Not really.


charles101 said:


> He's shet on because he's BM's FM


That boy Katakuri wakes up in the morning, stands up out of his chair and HOISTS the whole goddamn Big Mom Pirates organization on his back, and CARRIES those muthafuckas until he gets ready to sit down and sleep again.


Perrin said:


> Most of the time isn’t it?
> Buggy > Mihawk
> Don Krieg > Hatchan
> Crocodile > Ohm
> ...


Buggy>Mihawk, excuse me sir? Besides the previous boss was Kuro.

So Mihawk is an extreme outlier that's Zoro's Final Boss passing through.



Perrin said:


> That’s an avatar in the making. What a beast.
> Look at him using gura bubble too.


That's the effect for Peerless Donuts mang.


redboy776 said:


> If King stand there for a week, katakuri still wont be able to make him bleed. like the fuck katakuri is very overrated. what is mochi compared to a god?


We're dealing with a gimp not a god.


Great Potato said:


> Need to see more from King. Have to with Katakuri from what we've seen so far, but King still has hybrid up his sleeve.
> 
> Only thing I can say is King is more durable at this point. Damage soak seems to be the bread and butter of the Calamities and I wouldn't see Katakuri looking so clean if a Purgatory Onigiri landed, but the trade-off is Katakuri is much more evasive and King isn't really showing anything so far to work around that.


That's the thing about Katakuri, the Onigiri's gotta land first.


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## Fel1x (Aug 27, 2021)

to answer this question we need King to fight someone really strong 

right now he is fighting some one-eyed YC2 guy. this fight won't help battledome thread like that

Reactions: Funny 2


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> to answer this question we need King to fight someone really strong
> 
> right now he is fighting some one-eyed YC2 guy. this fight won't help battledome thread like that



quoting this for future reference when king gets his ass whooped by a one-eyed YC2

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Fel1x (Aug 27, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> quoting this for future reference when king gets his ass whooped by a one-eyed YC2


yeah, that will happen. YC2 guy will reach YC1 level. just like Luffy in WCI

I even want to bet with you about ZKK thing. I want to see Kaido in your avatar and "Kaido is the strongest ever" in signature if you lose. Why not? You seem pretty sure that ZKK will happen


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> yeah, that will happen. YC2 guy will reach YC1 level. just like Luffy in WCI
> 
> I even want to bet with you about ZKK thing. I want to see Kaido in your avatar and "Kaido is the strongest ever" in signature if you lose. Why not? You seem pretty sure that ZKK will happen



katakuri was landing a lot of blows on luffy during the fight. Remember when katakuri kicked luffy easily in the face? Now look at zoro dodging king’s kicks. No reason to assume zoro is weaker than king when king hasn’t landed a blow yet. I think you should at least be fair and wait until king starts overwhelming zoro before you say zoro is only yc2 now.

how long do you want me to wear that for? And can i pick your sig and avatar as well for the same amount of length if i win?


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## Fel1x (Aug 27, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> katakuri was landing a lot of blows on luffy during the fight. Remember when katakuri kicked luffy easily in the face? Now look at zoro dodging king’s kicks. No reason to assume zoro is weaker than king when king hasn’t landed a blow yet. I think you should at least be fair and wait until king starts overwhelming zoro before you say zoro is only yc2 now.
> 
> how long do you want me to wear that for? And can i pick your sig and avatar as well for the same amount of length if i win?


the battle hasn't even started tbh. we will see. but , yeah, Zoro is much closer to YC1 level than Luffy in WCI vs Katakuri

for a month I guess. you mean some specific avatar? or , for example, just random Zoro's (if you chose him as my avatar)? cause im not forcing you to wear some specific avatar of Kaido. as for signature: pick anything comparable you like

and as for avatar: not some gag Kaido one. like him crying or drunk Dragon form. same goes for me, I won't pick some gag one

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> the battle hasn't even started tbh. we will see. but , yeah, Zoro is much closer to YC1 level than Luffy in WCI vs Katakuri
> 
> for a month I guess. you mean some specific avatar? or , for example, just random Zoro's (if you chose him as my avatar)? cause im not forcing you to wear some specific avatar of Kaido. as for signature: pick anything comparable you like
> 
> and as for avatar: not some gag Kaido one. like him crying or drunk Dragon form. same goes for me, I won't pick some gag one



alright deal. You wear any zoro avatar you want for a month and your sig has to say “zoro > kaido”

ill wear a kaido avatar of my choosing for a month and a “kaido is the strongest ever” sig if i lose for a month

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## convict (Aug 27, 2021)

Why isn't there a poll  

Anyway to me you just have to look at the individuals these 2 are fighting. Katakuri fought WCI Luffy to a standstill. Someone who was barely developing future site had no advanced armament. Had no advanced conquerors. Had no physical training in Udon. Basically someone who is a complete fodder to current Luffy. An ant. He would get demolished almost as bad as he was by Kaido. And say what you want about Katakuri throwing the fight. But you can't read chapter 895 and say with a straight face that the two are very different in power. At the most Katakuri was just a bit stronger.

And who is King fighting? Post-Rooftop Zoro. The man who hung with post-Udon training Luffy and even surpassed him in many aspects. The man who made Big Mom shit her pants and tell Kaido to dodge. Who blocked a combined Yonkou attack. Who permanently scarred Kaido. This Zoro would obliterate Whole Cake Island Luffy. This Zoro's attacks completely eclipse Whole Cake Island Luffy. This Zoro's defensive capacity demolishes anything Katakuri throws his way. And if King can give this zoro a high/extreme difficulty fight then he mauls Katakuri.

Not to mention taking out a fatigued Marco in base without injury. Someone who has bonafide feats againt admirals and Emperors. Completely tanking a Rengoku Onigiri from current Zoro with barely any injury means he has far far far more durability than Katakuri. Current Zoro Rengoku onigiri is much stronger than WCI Kong Gun or King Cobra by a landslide and those attacks had very significant impact against Katakuri.

Katakuri has nothing in his arsenal that can tickle King. If King stood still and let Katakuri wail maybe after 30 minutes Katakuri has made some progress. And King hasn't even gone hybrid yet.

The only way this fight is even is if Zoro systematically dismantles King. Which won't happen. Zoro is going to have to go all out and transcend himself to put this friggin tank, this behemoth down. Katakuri gets his ass beat. Future sight will keep him in the game but as with Luffy it is not full-proof. King will get him eventually and while the match will be long King's victory is inevitable. It is not even close overall. King will come out of it with barely any wounds.

Reactions: Like 7 | Tier Specialist 3


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## MO (Aug 27, 2021)

convict said:


> Katakuri has nothing in his arsenal that can tickle King. If King stood still and let Katakuri wail maybe after 30 minutes Katakuri has made some progress. And King hasn't even gone hybrid yet.


King isn't tanking a mogura to the face.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## convict (Aug 27, 2021)

MO said:


> King isn't tanking a mogura to the face.



He'll get a nosebleed sure

Reactions: Funny 4


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## MO (Aug 27, 2021)

convict said:


> He'll get a nosebleed sure


He'll get half his face ripped off sure.

Reactions: Like 3


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## convict (Aug 27, 2021)

MO said:


> He'll get half his face ripped off sure.



I'll give it to you that maybe his leather mask gets ripped off

Reactions: Funny 4


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## MO (Aug 27, 2021)

convict said:


> I'll give it to you that maybe his leather mask gets ripped off


Along with a side of his brain yes.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2021)

convict said:


> Why isn't there a poll



i fucked up! won't happen in the katakuri vs king thread part 2 the next time we get new feats

Reactions: Like 2


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## convict (Aug 27, 2021)

Seriously someone did a calculation and Katakuri gave Luffy over 90 blows in that match compared to 12 or something received. That speaks well to his ability to evade but incredibly poor on his ability to tank and wound. His offense won't do much to King.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2021)

actually added a poll now


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## MO (Aug 27, 2021)

First to vote for Katakuri.  


Katakuri > any of the calamities.


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2021)

Going to vote for King. No way a former arc villain is stronger than a current arc villain.

King high difficulty would be my guess. He'll have trouble getting past Katakuri's future sight but he should win eventually.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Nardoguey (Aug 27, 2021)

You guys are overthinking it 
It's shonen and by shonen rules, power inflates exponentially regardless of logic 
King is stronger than Katakuri simply by virtue of that fact

And it's okay, everybody is affected by it
Crocodile looks like an ant nowadays, Doflamingo seems now more like a coackroach in the grand scheme of things, Big Mom and Laido will also look super  weak compared to whatever spirit bomb/final flash shit Shanks/Blackbeard/Akainu/Eos luffy are going to dish out in fights

Dont overanalyze manga or overestimate Oda, he's not that intelligent or subtle

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## El Hit (Aug 28, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> I want to see what King can do with his Haki. It was kinda embarrassing how most of the F6 (except Ulti and Who’s Who) didn’t show any Haki before going down. Queen actually being shown blocking with Armament on his arm this chapter gives me some hope the Calamities will be better in that regard. But just having Haki and being exceptional at one of the Haki types are two different things of course. For now while King may have better base durability than Kata I still favor Block Mochi for its density.




Charlotte counter solos the flying cucks with His haki feats

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Breadman (Aug 28, 2021)

Alex Payne said:


> Not trying to stir shit up but genuinely pondering - did we ever have Luffy's Previous Arc Boss being stronger than Zoro's Current Arc Boss?



Crocodile was stronger than Omoi or whatever his name was.

Enel was stronger than Kaku.

Lucci was stronger than Ryuma.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Perrin (Aug 28, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Buggy>Mihawk, excuse me sir?


Didn’t the last chapter confirm it?


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## Mihawk (Aug 28, 2021)

convict said:


> Seriously someone did a calculation and Katakuri gave Luffy over 90 blows in that match compared to 12 or something received. That speaks well to his ability to evade but incredibly poor on his ability to tank and wound. His offense won't do much to King.


This is what I been saying too lol.

Katakuri would try to dodge them Marco knee caps and kicks but if he was to take them he’d be in much worse shape than King.

They are built different, and Katakuri has barely shown much from his previous performance for a convincing argument to significantly damage King if we were going the feats route..


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## RossellaFiamingo (Aug 28, 2021)

Lets be real. Luffy's opponent will always be > Zoro or Sanji's opponent. 

King literally has to show off multiple things before we can even say he is equal to Katakuri.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Eustathios (Aug 28, 2021)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> *Lets be real. Luffy's opponent will always be > Zoro or Sanji's opponent.*
> 
> King literally has to show off multiple things before we can even say he is equal to Katakuri.


*in the same arc. 

That's important.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ezekjuninor (Aug 28, 2021)

Even if Katakuri happened to be equal to King which I doubt he is. King would have the matchup advantage. He has a whole fire technique arsenal to choose from. He could cover his sword in flames melting Katakuri's mochi.


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## Zern227 (Aug 28, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Even if Katakuri happened to be equal to King which I doubt he is. King would have the matchup advantage. He has a whole fire technique arsenal to choose from. He could cover his sword in flames melting Katakuri's mochi.


Katakuri literally sets his own mochi on fire.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Dunno (Aug 28, 2021)

King has better speed, durability and endurance feats than Katakuri, and he's not even gone hybrid yet. He's also fighting a vastly stronger opponent than Katakuri did. King takes this with low to mid diff.

Reactions: Like 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ezekjuninor (Aug 28, 2021)

Zern227 said:


> Katakuri literally sets his own mochi on fire.


I'm referring more so to the long-range techniques that he used to trap Luffy. They'd be easily countered by King's flames.


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## TheWiggian (Aug 28, 2021)

King's fire renders the majority of Katakuri's mochi attacks useless. He's a durability and endurance beast, which seems to be a massive counter against guys with inferior stamina and attack potency. Let's not act like WCI Luffy is anywhere close to current Zoro. King takes it and it's not looking too rosy for Katakuri since we haven't even seen him fight seriously yet. His hype is in the middle of development currently.


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## Karma (Aug 28, 2021)

Breadman said:


> Enel was stronger than Kaku.


Enel is still stronger than most post ts villains, homeboy can deatroy islands

Reactions: Winner 1


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## xenos5 (Aug 28, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> I'm referring more so to the long-range techniques that he used to trap Luffy. They'd be easily countered by King's flames.


Except Kata countered Luffy’s Red Hawk with a basic armament covered Mochi Punch. Showing heat/flame resistance with just basic Mochi + Armament.

And Power Mochi, one of Kata’s best ranged techniques, is the enlarged version of the same Block Mochi Kata purposely set on fire for an attack with Grilled Mochi. So it’s definitely not getting melted either.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MO (Aug 28, 2021)

lets break this tie. @charles101 vote for katakuri bro.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MO (Aug 28, 2021)

Dunno said:


> King has better speed,


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## itsxtray (Aug 28, 2021)

We can't properly rank people who fight strawhats cause the strawhats have to live. It makes no sense why Katakuri didn't just end Luffy with Mogura in 5 seconds instead of punching him a billion times. Our understanding of Katakuri's true level/lethality is skewed by Luffy becoming an inhuman damage sponge and the pis of Kata not just stabbing him in the face immediately.

So if he fought someone like King without those artificial narrative constraints he should look a lot better.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Informative 1


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## charles101 (Aug 28, 2021)

MO said:


> lets break this tie. @charles101 vote for katakuri bro.


I swear to god i thought I voted

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bobybobster (Aug 28, 2021)

still gotta see how much diff king gives zoro, if it's extreme then king > kata, since I believe current zoro > wci luffy

though king is looking incredibly tanky with a lot of stamina, so kata will already have issues here.


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## Dunno (Aug 28, 2021)

MO said:


>


Keeping up with current Zoro >> Keeping up with WCI Luffy. King has better speed feats than Katakuri in the same way that Kaku has better speed feats than Kuro.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 5


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## Mylesime (Aug 28, 2021)

Katakuri lack of AP is complete BS.
Katakuri stabbed Luffy one time with Mogura.... he ripped off a part of his stomach.
Punched Luffy countless times, put his knee on his nose despite Snakeman + Future Sight. Could hurt G4 but not significantly more the base form, barely used his spear.
This had nothing to do with abilities but plot shield thickness.
This shit should have ended immediatly,  just like Kaido should have already won currently...
Plot>Feat.
Or are we supposed to think that Sengoku lacks AP too since he failed to hurt pre timeskip Luffy at Marineford ?
Luffy is invincible/immortal.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 5 | Winner 2


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## Oda Report (Aug 28, 2021)

King > Kat

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 28, 2021)



Reactions: Like 8 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Brian (Aug 28, 2021)

Zoro should, at the most, high diff King if he's at 100%. Rooftop Zoro was tangling with 2 yonkos 


I knew that King pose looked familiar


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## MO (Aug 28, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Keeping up with current Zoro >> Keeping up with WCI Luffy. King has better speed feats than Katakuri in the same way that Kaku has better speed feats than Kuro.


Snake man speed >> zoro.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 28, 2021)

convict said:


> Seriously someone did a calculation and Katakuri gave Luffy over 90 blows in that match compared to 12 or something received. That speaks well to his ability to evade but incredibly poor on his ability to tank and wound. His offense won't do much to King.


Did that include how many blows Luffy threw at him that he countered by Rabbit punching him matching blow for blow head on. That also speaks to Katakuri's durability.

Part of the challenge of Katakuri is landing a blow and all and doing significant damage. It's like fighting a Slime in Dragon Quest, half of the battle is getting around their high ass evasion. Nevermind that Luffy won after Katakuri did serious damage to himself. And even with that handicap Luffy barely won.


Perrin said:


> Didn’t the last chapter confirm it?


No.


Ezekjuninor said:


> Even if Katakuri happened to be equal to King which I doubt he is. King would have the matchup advantage. He has a whole fire technique arsenal to choose from. He could cover his sword in flames melting Katakuri's mochi.


You guys seem to be confusing Katakuri's Mochi with Perospero's candy. The candy melts easily against fire. This was showcased in the return to the Sunny where Luffy's Red Hawk annihilated Perospero's Candy and then was nullified in turn by Katakuri matching the technique. And it isn't a matter of force either, as Luffy's Gear Third attacks with no fire and no Haki were later easily stopped by Perospero's Candy.


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## Dunno (Aug 28, 2021)

MO said:


> Snake man speed >> zoro.


Human Kaido is too fast for WCI Luffy to dodge. Current Zoro is too fast for Hybrid Kaido to dodge. Hybrid Kaido is faster than Human Kaido. Current Zoro's speed >>> WCI Luffy's.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Perrin (Aug 28, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> No.


Would mihawk rip his throat out with his teeth?


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## MO (Aug 28, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Human Kaido is too fast for WCI Luffy to dodge. Current Zoro is too fast for Hybrid Kaido to dodge. Hybrid Kaido is faster than Human Kaido. Current Zoro's speed >>> WCI Luffy's.


Hybrid Kaido hasn't attempted to dodge zoro

Luffy never used snake man against Kaido either.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Brian (Aug 28, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Part of the challenge of Katakuri is landing a blow and all and doing significant damage. It's like fighting a Slime in Dragon Quest, half of the battle is getting around their high ass evasion. Nevermind that Luffy won after Katakuri did serious damage to himself. And even with that handicap Luffy barely won.



hope you mean the metal slimes


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 28, 2021)

Bruh the Katakuri lacks AP thing is absolute nonsense.

Luffy chose to avoid his blows rather than take them head on in Gear 4 Boundman.

And all the Katakuri was hitting Base Luffy and doing nothing is pure shit because Kaido has even worse feats now. After knocking out Luffy with his Thunder Bagua, Plot proceeded to adjust his power level.

Hybrid Kaido landed a double handed Ragnarok infused with CoC after an overhead spin on Base Luffy's nuts and couldn't even knock him out for 5 minutes. Base Luffy hadn't even recovered his Haki

Kaido who had previously demonstrated he could knock out Fresh YC1 G4 Luffy with his Base Thunder Bagua failed to even K.O. a broken bones and completely exhausted Zoro who was actually YC2 as his fight with King is showing us.

Kaido despite having knocked out Kinemon and YC3 scabbards like Sulongs dukes previously with nameless strikes that apparently lacked CoC, failed to even knock out Kinemon after, talkless of kill him with a double handed strike infused with CoC.

Oda has characters display AP according to the demands of the plot and hype.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## ~Avant~ (Aug 28, 2021)

Mogura would do the same damage to Kaido that Luffy’s ryou did tbh.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 28, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Would mihawk rip his throat out with his teeth?


I'm sure that Mihawk has a blunt force attack that Buggy can't separate past. Buggy may be an unskinnable cat, but we can always fry him. Because Mihawk finessed Buggy with his own bombs on Marineford.

Consider the logic. Are people going to assert that Zoro still can't beat Buggy?


Brian said:


> hope you mean the metal slimes


Yes Sir. I was never a DQ player, but one of my best friends ate it up like morning cereal. Those Metal Slimes are some scary shit. Great AP though, if you can beat them before they haul ass.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 28, 2021)

~Avant~ said:


> Mogura would do the same damage to Kaido that Luffy’s ryou did tbh.


The scary thing is the possibility that using Future Sight and his analytical skills that Katakuri would figure out Haoshoku Haki infusion fighting Luffy now.


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## Brian (Aug 28, 2021)

~Avant~ said:


> Mogura would do the same damage to Kaido that Luffy’s ryou did tbh.



if Katakuri ever figures out how to use advanced CoC he would be a nightmare to deal with



Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Yes Sir. I was never a DQ player, but one of my best friends ate it up like morning cereal. Those Metal Slimes are some scary shit. Great AP though, if you can beat them before they haul ass.



DQ 8 was my first experience and it ended up being one of my favorite games for the PS2. It's like running into a rare pokemon w those slimes

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## ~Avant~ (Aug 28, 2021)

Katakuri will probably learn advance conquerors once he takes over as leader of the crew once Big Mom abdicates.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ezekjuninor (Aug 28, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> And all the Katakuri was hitting Base Luffy and doing nothing is pure shit because Kaido has even worse feats now.


He doesn't.


Kagutsutchi said:


> Hybrid Kaido landed a double handed Ragnarok infused with CoC after an overhead spin on Base Luffy's nuts and couldn't even knock him out for 5 minutes. Base Luffy hadn't even recovered his Haki


He KO'd Luffy, Luffy recovered after Zoro and Law covered for him. whether it was 5 minutes or 1 hour doesn't really matter, Luffy was defeated and this Luffy is far stronger than the Luffy Katakuri fought.


Kagutsutchi said:


> Kaido who had previously demonstrated he could knock out Fresh YC1 G4 Luffy with his Base Thunder Bagua failed to even K.O. a broken bones and completely exhausted Zoro who was actually YC2 as his fight with King is showing us.


Zoro was unable to move before thunder bagua and unable to move after thunder bagua I don't see how you're trying to use this as a negative feat for Kaidou to justify Katakuri's terrible AP. There's no way to measure how much damage thunder bagua did to Zoro. And again Zoro is easily above what Katakuri demonstrated especially in endurance and AP. How is this fight showing that Zoro is weaker than YC1?


Kagutsutchi said:


> Kaido despite having knocked out Kinemon and YC3 scabbards like Sulongs dukes previously with nameless strikes that apparently lacked CoC


This is headcanon where is it stated or shown that Kaidou isn't using CoC, we see black sparks when he hits Kinemon too.


Kagutsutchi said:


> failed to even knock out Kinemon after, talkless of kill him with a double handed strike infused with CoC.


Obviously, due to the plot, Kinemon got to have his cool moment and was defeated in the next panel. And nobody dies in One Piece.

Katakuri hit Luffy endlessly and couldn't manage to keep him down once. That is terrible AP. Oda does not draw Kaidou landing multiple hits on Luffy and failing to put him down. He draws Kaidou landing thunder bagua and Luffy is KO'd he draws Kaidou landing ragnarok and Luffy is KO'd. He shows Kaidou defeating Luffy after a couple of minutes, not failing to after several hours. How is Katakuri going to put down an awakened hybrid King who can shrug off onigiri in base without him landing 100 of hits. Meanwhile, Katakuri went down in just 10 hits from Luffy. The only attack from Katakuri which actually demonstrated impressive AP is Mogura which Katakuri couldn't even land on a pre-fs base Luffy.


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## Corax (Aug 28, 2021)

King might edge Kata in the end due to scaling. Even mid. for post roof Zoro should translate into win for King via Okobore town post WCI G4 stomp. Base Kaido just flexed on G4 and no diffed it,while Kata had a fight of his life.


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## cry77 (Aug 28, 2021)

~Avant~ said:


> Katakuri will probably learn advance conquerors once he takes over as leader of the crew once Big Mom abdicates.


Dude, Katakuri is a minor character. We are never gonna see him again outside maybe of a scattered panel here and there.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Mihawk (Aug 28, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Would mihawk rip his throat out with his teeth?


Yes. He's a vampire.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## El Hit (Aug 28, 2021)

By obd rules king's feats Will make kata look like shit, but knowing Oda, they should be on the same lvl AND extreme diff one another similar to kaido vs mom. They are billion Bounty xharacters AND right hands of those yonkou. With that in mind, my vote Will be for mihawk solos them AND he Is >= Shanks.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 28, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> He doesn't.


First of all, this will be my only reply because I'm no longer doing back and forth. Secondly, He does.




Ezekjuninor said:


> He KO'd Luffy, Luffy recovered after Zoro and Law covered for him. whether it was 5 minutes or 1 hour doesn't really matter, Luffy was defeated and this Luffy is far stronger than the Luffy Katakuri fought.


Was he so strong that he was more durable than Gear 4 Boundman in Base? That would be a good feat if you can provide sufficient evidence of that happening.

It's not being K.O.ed that's the point, Luffy shouldn't even be alive after Ragnarok. Unless you want to argue Base Luffy>Gear 4 Boundman (in which case we disagree so much we can't even debate together), Kaido not killing Luffy is a clear case of plot.

Besides are you claiming that length of time of being K.O'ed from a hit doesn't matter?



Ezekjuninor said:


> Zoro was unable to move before thunder bagua and unable to move after thunder bagua I don't see how you're trying to use this as a negative feat for Kaidou to justify Katakuri's terrible AP.


Zoro being unable to move before and after TB is a negative feat for Kaido because Kaido could easily one shot a full power Luffy before, but couldn't in his hybrid and most powerful state kill a completely exhausted and heavily injure Zoro who is now fighting King.

That's worse AP than Katakuri who had Gear 4 Luffy choosing to dodge his hits rather than blocking with Haki.




Ezekjuninor said:


> There's no way to measure how much damage thunder bagua did to Zoro.


It doesn't matter what you measure. Zoro should be dead is what I'm saying.




Ezekjuninor said:


> And again Zoro is easily above what Katakuri demonstrated especially in endurance and AP.


You're only correct in AP and even then it was Asura Zoro using CoC coating to augment his attack. Apart from that, Zoro hasn't shown more AP than Katakuri. Katakuri blew a hole in Luffy with Mogura, Zoro only left a scar at best on Killer.

And in endurance, Katakuri fought Luffy for hours with a massive hole in his gut, while Zoro was out of commission with broken bones and needs magic medicine to be able to fight.



Ezekjuninor said:


> How is this fight showing that Zoro is weaker than YC2?


I never said this. I said Zoro is actually a YC2. Which is probably true because he isn't portrayed to be as strong as King and he himself states he will need to go all out and unconventional to beat King.




Ezekjuninor said:


> This is headcanon where is it stated or shown that Kaidou isn't using CoC, we see black sparks when he hits Kinemon too


I said "apparently", I wasn't sure. But still, Kaido could knock out the scabbards with one hit one handed.

He couldn't knock out a weakened Kinemon with a double handed overhand strike with more power behind it.



Ezekjuninor said:


> Obviously, due to the plot, Kinemon got to have his cool moment and was defeated in the next panel. And nobody dies in One Piece.


You've just rendered this entire debate meaningless and proven my point.

Due to the plot and Oda's unwillingness to kill people, Kaido and Katakuri's blows were not as lethal as they should have been on their targets.




Ezekjuninor said:


> Katakuri hit Luffy endlessly and couldn't manage to keep him down once. That's terrible AP


Hybrid Kaido hit base Luffy who was recharging Haki with a Ragnarok and couldn't even kill him. That's terrible AP.




Ezekjuninor said:


> Oda does not draw Kaidou landing multiple hits on Luffy and failing to put him down.


I can show the scans proving this wrong.





And besides, what does number of hits have to do with anything anyway? Kaido is an Emperor and Katakuri is a YC1, the Latter's superior attacks should automatically be greater than Katakuri's multiple attacks.




Ezekjuninor said:


> He draws Kaidou landing thunder bagua and Luffy is KO'd he draws Kaidou landing ragnarok and Luffy is KO'd


Except in one, Luffy is in Gear 4 and in the other, he is in his base form without even that much Haki to defend himself. There is a huge disparity in durability and endurance there that should have resulted in base Luffy's death from getting hit with Ragnarok.

But hey, perhaps Gear 4 Luffy=Base Luffy in durability and endurance.




Ezekjuninor said:


> He shows Kaidou defeating Luffy after a couple of minutes, not failing to after several hours


Not my argument. Kaido should be killing the dude after what he initially did to his strongest form.




Ezekjuninor said:


> How is Katakuri going to put down an awakened hybrid King who can shrug off onigiri in base without him landing 100 of hits.


First of all, we don't even know if King has awakening.

Secondly, Onigiri's only feat is putting down nerfed Killer with no lethal damage and doing nothing else to Kaido and King. So I don't know what you think you're doing bringing it up. Katakuri's Mogura already did more damage to Luffy.





Ezekjuninor said:


> Meanwhile, Katakuri went down in just 10 hits from Luffy.


Yeah, let's ignore that Luffy is the fucking MC so King doesn't benefit from this privilege

Let's ignore Katakuri basically throwing the fight to Luffy by stabbing himself and choosing to give up after Luffy promises to beat BM.

Let's ignore that this in no way proves anything in favor of King. King was never stated to be equal to Gear 4 Luffy, he wasn't stated to be superior or even comparable, we just have to assume he is because reasons I guess.




Ezekjuninor said:


> The only attack from Katakuri which actually demonstrated impressive AP is Mogura which Katakuri couldn't even land on a pre-fs base Luffy.


And let's assume that wasn't thanks to Plot when Katakuri was landing hits on Gear 4 Luffy and Future Sight Snakeman Luffy.

As I've said before, this is my only reply to you on this. Let's agree to disagree since I can see I can't convince you.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ezekjuninor (Aug 28, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> As I've said before, this is my only reply to you on this. Let's agree to disagree since I can see I can't convince you.


I'll agree to disagree, Katakuri never seemed impressive to me in the grand scheme of things

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 28, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> I'll agree to disagree, Katakuri never seemed impressive to me in the grand scheme of things


I can't understand why, but I can respect your opinion.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## ShadoLord (Aug 28, 2021)

King's fire counters Kata's mochi

he high-diffs Katakuri.


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## MO (Aug 28, 2021)

Fire doesn't counter Mochi. How many times does that need to be said.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 4 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Oda Report (Aug 28, 2021)

MO said:


> Snake man speed >> zoro.



traveling speed? yeah

 however combat speed? nah.


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## MO (Aug 28, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> traveling speed? yeah
> 
> however combat speed? nah.


Both


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## Mrdude (Aug 28, 2021)

Kaido's normal speed when he's not using Thunder Bagua is not that impressive. Even base Luffy has managed to hit him multiple times.
Katakuri especially seems to be hard to hit and it took a G4 Snakeman+ Future Sight+ Plot armor to take him out. It's not a fair comparison.

I suspect Katakuri and King are around the same level.
However based on feats I'd have to give it to Katakuri for now.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Maruo (Aug 28, 2021)

This is not as complex as some people here are making it out to be.

Before the latest chapters, Marco was considered to be on a completely different level when compared to King. Now, while most people still place Marco above King, they appear much closer to each other in power level than previously thought. The prevailing idea here is that King is simply stronger than we thought. Another simpler explanation, however, is that all YC1s are *gasp* actually near the same level.

Ultimately, this is how I believe the power scaling works in Oda's mind. Feats in One Piece are not the most consistent. This has actually been referenced in a way by Nami in-story when Lucci and Kaku initially defeated Luffy and Zoro. People also sometimes ignore things in the manga to exaggerate inconsistencies to support their agendas. For example, the fact that Luffy was not YC1 in his initial clash with Kaido due to not using FS (as well as his questionable victory over Katakuri) is often ignored.

Marco >= King >= Katakuri with the gaps being very small. Each would take at least very high diff, if not extreme, to defeat one of the others.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 2 | Neutral 1


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 28, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> It’s never to early to discuss powerlevels


What do you think A? Zoro of the current story line vs Luffy of 100 or so chapters ago? 

I see a clear winner here.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 28, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Katakuri is underrated.


Katakuri is very overrated.

Imagine he looked like this:



He'd be brushed aside like his brother Cracker.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## A Optimistic (Aug 28, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> What do you think A? Zoro of the current story line vs Luffy of 100 or so chapters ago?
> 
> I see a clear winner here.



This pic that Seraphoenix posted earlier sums up my thoughts. Zoro > WCI Luffy. Of course current Luffy > current Zoro.


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## xenos5 (Aug 28, 2021)

Something to take into account whether or not Zoro’s 100% or not. It matters more if he’s using Enma the way he was at the start of the Kaido fight where he and Killer could hit Kaido at the same time and it’d have no effect. Or if he’s using it like he was when it was pouring out Haki that gave off a vibe similar to Oden.

That Haki boost from Enma drawing out his Latent Haki is the boost that let him accomplish anything against Kaido. If he’s either not using Enma for some reason or unable to use it the same way he did during the Kaido fight it would be a different weaker version of Zoro that King is fighting. Not the one that scarred Kaido. But the one that lost consciousness from Kamazo/Nerfed Killer’s scythe stab after beating him (I still don’t buy that hunger excuse honestly lol).

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 28, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Something to take into account whether or not Zoro’s 100% or not. It matters more if he’s using Enma the way he was at the start of the Kaido fight where he and Killer could hit Kaido at the same time and it’d have no effect. Or if he’s using it like he was when it was pouring out Haki that gave off a vibe similar to Oden.
> 
> That Haki boost from Enma drawing out his Latent Haki is the boost that let him accomplish anything against Kaido. If he’s either not using Enma for some reason or unable to use it the same way he did during the Kaido fight it would be a different weaker version of Zoro that King is fighting. Not the one that scarred Kaido. But the one that lost consciousness from Kamazo/Nerfed Killer’s scythe stab after beating him (I still don’t buy that hunger excuse honestly lol).


It's Zoro, the guy who reminds Kawamatsu of a legendary Wano samurai and the literal sword God Ryuma.

That's the guy King's about to take the distance.

This is all the evidence we need.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 28, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> This pic that Seraphoenix posted earlier sums up my thoughts. Zoro > WCI Luffy. Of course current Luffy > current Zoro.


Zoro's about to get some Oden feats. We all know it.

Kaido as much as foreshadowed it:



Zoro needs to be reminiscent of Ryuma and Oden to defeat King. Not ZKK. King.

Katakuri's out of his depth boys.


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## Oda Report (Aug 28, 2021)

MO said:


> Both



incorrect.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Shuyakuu (Aug 28, 2021)

Kuri for now. I'll pick King only if he manages to push Zoro to his absolute limits.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 28, 2021)

The thing is, King doesn't even have to push Zoro to the extent Katakuri pushed Luffy.

Zoro will be bounds stronger than WCI Luffy when he does defeat King. Just being able to fight that Zoro puts King above Katakuri by default.


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## xenos5 (Aug 28, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> It's Zoro, the guy who reminds Kawamatsu of a legendary Wano samurai and the literal sword God Ryuma.
> 
> That's the guy King's about to take the distance.
> 
> This is all the evidence we need.


Nah. His technique or fighting style or whatever reminding him of guys like that doesn’t mean much for his strength if he doesn’t get the Enma Latent Haki Boost like he did when he fought Kaido. Zoro with and Zoro without that boost are in entirely different tiers of power. If Zoro had that boost when he fought Apoo then he wouldn’t have even needed to use a technique to slice through his tonfas, they’d get sliced through by a basic slash when Apoo tried to block.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Brian (Aug 28, 2021)

so ZKK is still happening after being pushed to the limits by King?

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 28, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Nah. His technique or fighting style or whatever reminding him of guys like that doesn’t mean much for his strength if he doesn’t get the Enma Latent Haki Boost like he did when he fought Kaido. Zoro with and Zoro without that boost are in entirely different tiers of power. If Zoro had that boost when he fought Apoo then he wouldn’t have even needed to use a technique to slice through his tonfas, they’d get sliced through by a basic slash when Apoo tried to block.


Enma's just allowing him to bring out that haki & strength. Once he's fully mastered Enma, then he should be as strong without it as he is with it. It's training him.

And why do you think he won't use his full strength here? Did this chapter not convince you?


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## Kroczilla (Aug 28, 2021)

At the moment, I will have to go with Katakuri. FS is just something King doesn't appear to have a good answer to.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## xenos5 (Aug 28, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Enma's just allowing him to bring out that haki & strength. Once he's fully mastered Enma, then he should be as strong without it as he is with it. It's training him.
> 
> And why do you think he won't use his full strength here? Did this chapter not convince you?


If anything with King disarming Zoro this chapter and Zoro talking about how he'd win even if he had to bite King's throat (or something like that iirc) it's seeming plenty possible Zoro won't get the chance to utilize Enma properly and will have to fight in a different way than when he fought Kaido.

He can still try to use his "full strength" but without Enma drawing out his latent Haki it won't be the same.


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## Canute87 (Aug 28, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> Location: Rooftop


King has high endurance and defense, Katakuri has high speed and avoidance.

It's really hard to put these two against each other.

Oda gave Katakuri a very limited weapon.


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## ClannadFan (Aug 29, 2021)

Feats will say King Mid-High Diff.

Plot says roughly equal.

So I gotta give the edge to King.


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## featherine augustus (Aug 29, 2021)

For now kata going by feats ; King mostly going to end up being stronger though. His  race is God race after all


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 29, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Katakuri is very overrated.


I have him placed as the Rob Lucci of the New World, a character who pushed Luffy to his absolute limits and forced his evolution.



Shunsuiju said:


> Imagine he looked like this:
> 
> 
> 
> He'd be brushed aside like his brother Cracker.



I wonder why he changed it up. Because it does leave Katakuri as a visual outlier. It was a good call and allows him to stand out as Luffy's final boss in that arc, but it is odd.



A Optimistic said:


> This pic that Seraphoenix posted earlier sums up my thoughts. Zoro > WCI Luffy. Of course current Luffy > current Zoro.


OK so start of Wano Zoro vs Cracker, who ya got?


Shunsuiju said:


> The thing is, King doesn't even have to push Zoro to the extent Katakuri pushed Luffy.
> 
> Zoro will be bounds stronger than WCI Luffy when he does defeat King. Just being able to fight that Zoro puts King above Katakuri by default.


Alright, same type of question then Post Enma Training Zoro vs Katakuri, who ya got?


Canute87 said:


> King has high endurance and defense, Katakuri has high speed and avoidance.
> 
> It's really hard to put these two against each other.
> 
> Oda gave Katakuri a very limited weapon.


And Katakuri a highly variable devil fruit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Canute87 (Aug 29, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I have him placed as the Rob Lucci of the New World, a character who pushed Luffy to his absolute limits and forced his evolution.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But king still has yet to show his true power.

Not only if he a ancient zoan he can do some shit with fire.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 29, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Alright, same type of question then Post Enma Training Zoro vs Katakuri, who ya got?


Zoro, of course. Large air slashes will be harder to dodge for Katakuri, and Enma is probably just as powerful if not more than G4 and it's far more lethal. Not to mention, Ashura.

After Zoro opens his eye or does some fucky shit in this fight, Katakuri doesn't even stand a chance anymore.


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## Great Potato (Aug 29, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Kaido who had previously demonstrated he could knock out Fresh YC1 G4 Luffy with his Base Thunder Bagua failed to even K.O. a broken bones and completely exhausted *Zoro who was actually YC2 as his fight with King is showing us*.





Kagutsutchi said:


> I never said this. I said Zoro is actually a YC2. Which is probably true because *he isn't portrayed to be as strong as King* and he himself states he will need to go all out and unconventional to beat King.



Where is this coming from? King hasn't accomplished anything against Zoro so far.

Disarming Zoro was a good feat, but his sucker punch to capitalize on that was blocked without much trouble, and the blade trick isn't something his opponent would fall for twice. He tried cutting Sanji and Zoro blocked it, he tried kicking Zoro and it was avoided. King is good at soaking hits, but I didn't see anything to suggest that Zoro is fighting an uphill battle here, and he should be finishing this fight within 15 minutes.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Dellinger (Aug 29, 2021)

I’ll say something else about this topic

Katakuri easily has one of the top 5 fighting styles in the entire series. King seems to be on that tier just from a single chapter 

Both are freaking awesome

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 29, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Where is this coming from? King hasn't accomplished anything against Zoro so far.
> 
> Disarming Zoro was a good feat, but his sucker punch to capitalize on that was blocked without much trouble, and the blade trick isn't something his opponent would fall for twice. He tried cutting Sanji and Zoro blocked it, he tried kicking Zoro and it was avoided. King is good at soaking hits, but I didn't see anything to suggest that Zoro is fighting an uphill battle here, and he should be finishing this fight within 15 minutes.


King hasn't used Hybrid or even his awakening (which he might not have) on Zoro yet and he's still looking good against him. I feel like Oda will have Zoro have to grow during his fight and reach another level in power. That's why I said YC2 Zoro. You can disagree if you want.


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## Dead Precedence (Aug 29, 2021)

So do we take the whole Luffy getting one shotted by Kaido early on as outlier? Or do we no longer use that as a reason why Katakuri would get BTFOD by Kaido? I remember people were predicting Zoro to mid diff King, so unless King is on some whole other level against Katakuri the powerscaling is all out of wack.


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## juju15112 (Aug 29, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> King hasn't used Hybrid or even his awakening (which he might not have) on Zoro yet and he's still looking good against him. I feel like Oda will have Zoro have to grow during his fight and reach another level in power. That's why I said YC2 Zoro. You can disagree if you want.


Looking good? He hasn't done anything to Zoro.  You acting like Zoro pulled out Ashura or his highest levels moves lmao.


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## Kagutsutchi (Aug 29, 2021)

juju15112 said:


> Looking good? He hasn't done anything to Zoro.  You acting like Zoro pulled out Ashura or his highest levels moves lmao.


Zoro has done nothing to him as well and he is willing to go to any length to win against King.

That's good hype for King


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## Maruo (Aug 29, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> So do we take the whole Luffy getting one shotted by Kaido early on as outlier? Or do we no longer use that as a reason why Katakuri would get BTFOD by Kaido? I remember people were predicting Zoro to mid diff King, so unless King is on some whole other level against Katakuri the powerscaling is all out of wack.



Katakuri was significantly stronger than the Luffy who was one-shot by Kaido. Luffy did not use FS and his victory over Katakuri was questionable.

With FS, Katakuri would evade Kaido's attacks even easier than post-Udon Luffy did. It would take a while for Kaido to put Katakuri down, though Katakuri would struggle to do any damage. He would give solid low diff to Kaido. This makes sense as aCoC Luffy, who I now have as noticeably above Marco, gave Kaido mid diff.


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## Dead Precedence (Aug 29, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Katakuri was significantly stronger than the Luffy who was one-shot by Kaido. Luffy did not use FS and his victory over Katakuri was questionable.
> 
> With FS, Katakuri would evade Kaido's attacks even easier than post-Udon Luffy did. It would take a while for Kaido to put Katakuri down, though Katakuri would struggle to do any damage. He would give solid low diff to Kaido. This makes sense as aCoC Luffy, who I now have as noticeably above Marco, gave Kaido mid diff.


What diff do you have King giving his captain, genuinely curious, does he also get low diffed? And do you believe he can also leave a mark on him like Zoro did?


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 29, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Zoro, of course. Large air slashes will be harder to dodge for Katakuri, and Enma is probably just as powerful if not more than G4 and it's far more lethal. Not to mention, Ashura.



Why would large air slashes be harder to dodge? Nothing is hard for Katakuri to dodge, he knows where an attack is going before it's launched. You have to be counter acting his predictions with your own to hit him.

Now Katakuri trying to block Enma with Block Mochi is definitely something that's going to get him cut, but he would also see the result of trying to block that and evade. 

Defeating Katakuri is as much about overcoming his HAX as it is outpowering him.

Note that Luffy shifted to a speed form in his final clash with Katakuri because he knew that speed was more valuable than power. Katakuri knows that evading attacks is safer than tanking them.



Shunsuiju said:


> After Zoro opens his eye or does some fucky shit in this fight, Katakuri doesn't even stand a chance anymore.


I can't possibly give any credence to that.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Wosu (Aug 29, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Keeping up with current Zoro >> Keeping up with WCI Luffy. King has better speed feats than Katakuri in the same way that Kaku has better speed feats than Kuro.


Zoro gaining an edge in lethality in no way shows that he has gotten an edge in speed. What? No zoro feats even compare to Snakeman which Kata was able to keep up with. What are yall on?

Reactions: Like 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Maruo (Aug 29, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> What diff do you have King giving his captain, genuinely curious, does he also get low diffed? And do you believe he can also leave a mark on him like Zoro did?



Low-diff (possibly upper-end), and probably not. Zoro used both aCoA and aCoC in Asura to do permanent damage to Kaido. He likely could have done the same solo based on how Oda wrote the clash, even if Kaido would defeat Zoro fairly quickly afterwards. That's nothing less than mid diff. I don't see King having the tools to accomplish the same.

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## Dunno (Aug 29, 2021)

Wosu said:


> Zoro gaining an edge in lethality in no way shows that he has gotten an edge in speed. What? No zoro feats even compare to Snakeman which Kata was able to keep up with. What are yall on?


Not being instantly blitzed by Kaido shows that he's not only got an edge in speed, but that they aren't even comparable. Zoro reacted to all of Kaido's and BM's attacks without trouble, never being outsped by either of them. Start of Wano Luffy was too slow to even react to human Kaido.

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## LaniDani (Aug 29, 2021)

Kuri has way better feats and portrayal.When Luffy used fs with base form even dodged Kaido's tb in chapter 1001 and thats just base Luffy.Katakuri has a speed that can blitz a Snakeman+ who can see the future.His speed>>King.This episode proved it even more.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 29, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Why would large air slashes be harder to dodge? Nothing is hard for Katakuri to dodge, he knows where an attack is going before it's launched. You have to be counter acting his predictions with your own to hit him.
> 
> Now Katakuri trying to block Enma with Block Mochi is definitely something that's going to get him cut, but he would also see the result of trying to block that and evade.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Katakuri's strong because of that. Not taking it away from him. But his actual strength is way off top-tier levels. The fact that Kaido can tag Luffy and with the ease he did in Kuri, then Katakuri's hittable also. We haven't seen him fight someone who is tiers above him in physical strength, and King might be that. Imagine he is half way between G4 and G5 or Kaido and Admirals (just as an example). Katakuri is a notch below G4 already and making up for that with future sight.

EDIT:

Katakuri is super strong. His future sight, overall skills and even power is great. I just don't like when people act like he has everything - he doesn't. The point of 884 was to present Katakuri as someone who could counter G4 with his future sight, but he was never presented as someone who was a brute who could just topple G4 on his own fighting prowess like Kaido, or other top-tiers.

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## LaniDani (Aug 29, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Not being instantly blitzed by Kaido shows that he's not only got an edge in speed, but that they aren't even comparable. Zoro reacted to all of Kaido's and BM's attacks without trouble, never being outsped by either of them. Start of Wano Luffy was too slow to even react to human Kaido.


Because Luffy thought Tama and his crew were dead, he got angry and couldn't use observation.Observation is something that works when person is calm.Even Kinemon did react to Kaido.Base Luffy in the roof fight could react to the hybrid Kaido too.And thats before even coc p.up.Base Luffy dodged Kaido's tb chapter  in 1001 too.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Dunno (Aug 29, 2021)

LaniDani said:


> Because Luffy thought Tama and his crew were dead, he got angry and couldn't use observation.Observation is something that works when person is calm.Even Kinemon did react to Kaido.Base Luffy in the roof fight could react to the hybrid Kaido too.And thats before even coc p.up.Base Luffy dodged Kaido's tb chapter  in 1001 too.


Yeah, rooftop Luffy could dodge Kaido, but barely. WCI Luffy could not. "Did not use FS" is just an excuse for Luffy being a slowpoke. There's no reason to assume that he didn't use it, especially since we saw that even on the rooftop, when we know for a fact he used it, he was too slow to completely avoid the attack. Luffy was just as pissed when he walked to the KOed Scabbards when they arrived on the rooftop, and that didn't stop him from FSing. Any way you slice it, Luffy got blitzed, Zoro did not. Thus, Zoro's speed is far above WCI Luffy's.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## xenos5 (Aug 29, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Yeah, rooftop Luffy could dodge Kaido, but barely. WCI Luffy could not. "Did not use FS" is just an excuse for Luffy being a slowpoke. There's no reason to assume that he didn't use it, especially since we saw that even on the rooftop, when we know for a fact he used it, he was too slow to completely avoid the attack. Luffy was just as pissed when he walked to the KOed Scabbards when they arrived on the rooftop, and that didn't stop him from FSing. Any way you slice it, Luffy got blitzed, Zoro did not. Thus, Zoro's speed is far above WCI Luffy's.


Just as pissed as when he thought his crewmates, the people who are like a family to him, might’ve been killed? Cmon you can’t really believe that. He does not care about the scabbards in anywhere near the same way.

Heck why would Luffy be surprised FS didn’t let him completely dodge Thunder Bagua if he used it the first time? He would already know from experience if he had been able to use FS back then.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Useful 1


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 29, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Not being instantly blitzed by Kaido shows that he's not only got an edge in speed, but that they aren't even comparable. Zoro reacted to all of Kaido's and BM's attacks without trouble, never being outsped by either of them. Start of Wano Luffy was too slow to even react to human Kaido.


No. Both Luffy and Zoro were laid out by the same technique from Kaido. Raimei Hakke. That said, Kaido only uses that speed with that technique, similar to Zoro and Shishi Sonson. Both Zoro and Luffy were able to deal with Kaido's base speed generally outside of that.


Shunsuiju said:


> Yeah, Katakuri's strong because of that. Not taking it away from him. But his actual strength is way off top-tier levels. The fact that Kaido can tag Luffy and with the ease he did in Kuri, then Katakuri's hittable also. We haven't seen him fight someone who is tiers above him in physical strength, and King might be that. Imagine he is half way between G4 and G5 or Kaido and Admirals (just as an example). Katakuri is a notch below G4 already and making up for that with future sight.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Katakuri is super strong. His future sight, overall skills and even power is great. I just don't like when people act like he has everything - he doesn't. The point of 884 was to present Katakuri as someone who could counter G4 with his future sight, but he was never presented as someone who was a brute who could just topple G4 on his own fighting prowess like Kaido, or other top-tiers.


As Gear Fifth doesn't exist I cannot speculate how King would fit there. It's also difficult to ascertain how King compares to Gear Fourth as he's never fought it.

I also disagree with your assessment of Katakuri's strength against Gear Fourth. He fought Luffy for eleven hours and stood strong against multiple bursts of Gear Fourth.

Don't forget that when Katakuri regained control he did this to Gear Fourth Boundman.





I will not concede the Shonen logic of the later villains are automatically orders of magnitude stronger than previous villains, it hasn't held up in One Piece when Crocodile and Doflamingo can square off evenly. King and Katakuri by rank and position are peers. It's not like one is in a Yonko crew and another is some Paradise level big wig. On a battlefield these two would be standing eye to eye.

I also don't think it's appropriate to not think of Katakuri as a brute.



He's got the goods in that regard.

That said, I agree he doesn't have *everything* he and King are built different-ly. We don't even know what kind of Haki King is working with. It would be extremely odd at this juncture if King wasn't packing a special Haki variation of his own. Unless his fire is supposed to be the difference maker. While Katakuri is the gold standard of evasion, King and the Calamities have toughness that'll put fear in the hardest beasts. King can fly and control the sky, while Katakuri can make the ground a living sticky nightmare.

I don't think we have to worry about Katakuri casually binding King, Pedro showed that a skilled swordsman can cut his mochi, so if Katakuri restricts him it will be through skillful application and he'll need to capitalize swiftly. It should be a top caliber match no matter how you look at it.

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## Shunsuiju (Aug 29, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> As Gear Fifth doesn't exist I cannot speculate how King would fit there. It's also difficult to ascertain how King compares to Gear Fourth as he's never fought it.


Yeah sorry, just used it as an example assuming Luffy with whatever powerup he gains (codenamed "G5") will be around Kaido's ballpark. my logic is that since Zoro is facing King and Luffy is facing Kaido, they are all not that far apart.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I also disagree with your assessment of Katakuri's strength against Gear Fourth. He fought Luffy for eleven hours and stood strong against multiple bursts of Gear Fourth.
> 
> Don't forget that when Katakuri regained control he did this to Gear Fourth Boundman.


Can we please for a second look at the details? Sure, Katakuri did well against G4 when it was used, but you are willfully or ignorantly ignoring _why_.

And I guess it's because Katakuri's cool and Cracker's not, because they fared almost the exact same against the form

At the start of the fight, Luffy was being dominated by Katakuri in *strength *and *speed:*





That was until he pulled out G4, for the first time





"Your tough Armament defense from before can't stand up to G4"

This was when Luffy figured out after all the fighting that had gone on, Katakuri was not invincible, it's his observational powers that make him so powerful. Which is what I'm arguing. It's right there, on the page.

We get more fighting, we go away from the fight, and in the end when Luffy unlocks the future sight, he can match Katakuri, not with a strength form, but with a speed form in Snakeman.

So I think what I've established here is that Katakuri is not actually that strong. What makes him so powerful is his ability to evade attacks.

Now obviously Katakuri's the strongest sibling, but I want to draw the comparison to Cracker again, because I think the Big Mom pirates had a theme: They were not muscular tanky baddasses, they were tricky and smart. The exact opposite of Kaido's henchmen. Cracker dominated Luffy at the start of their fight, then Luffy pulled out Boundman, sent Cracker flying with his suit, just like Katakuri and just like Doflamingo. Cracker used his expert skill with his devil fruit to make his biscuit army and Luffy couldn't beat him, not even in G4. There is very little difference in the actual performance of Katakuri and Cracker vs Luffy.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I will not concede the Shonen logic of the later villains are automatically orders of magnitude stronger than previous villains, i*t hasn't held up in One Piece*


It's always held up. Do you not think Luffy would roll over Arlong come the end of the timeskip? They (the Strawhats) are always getting stronger, and in an arc where Luffy is facing Kaido, I'd think the guy Zoro's facing would be pretty damn powerful, given the two Strawhat's closeness to each other.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> when Crocodile and Doflamingo can square off evenly.


Did I miss that part? Dofy was playing around Croc. The guy who lost to Alabasta Luffy.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> King and Katakuri by rank and position are peers. It's not like one is in a Yonko crew and another is some Paradise level big wig. On a battlefield these two would be standing eye to eye.


Whitebeard and Roger's crews were presented as equal, yet no one says Marco sees eye to eye with Rayleigh. Especially when they had their big fights and rivalry before Roger became the Pirate King.

This is just terribly faulty logic. Is Bepo equal to Zoro? They are both the second men to Supernova captains.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I also don't think it's appropriate to not think of Katakuri as a brute.
> 
> 
> 
> He's got the goods in that regard.


He's not top-tier in brute strength or combat ability. He floats around the bottom of it due to his top-tier observational skills making him a disaster fight for many.


Amatérasu’s Son said:


> That said, I agree he doesn't have *everything* he and King are built different-ly. We don't even know what kind of Haki King is working with. It would be extremely odd at this juncture if King wasn't packing a special Haki variation of his own. Unless his fire is supposed to be the difference maker. While Katakuri is the gold standard of evasion, King and the Calamities have toughness that'll put fear in the hardest beasts. King can fly and control the sky, while Katakuri can make the ground a living sticky nightmare.
> 
> I don't think we have to worry about Katakuri casually binding King, Pedro showed that a skilled swordsman can cut his mochi, so if Katakuri restricts him it will be through skillful application and he'll need to capitalize swiftly. *It should be a top caliber match no matter how you look at it.*


We don't know that at all. There is a pretty big gap between Katakuri and the strongest fighters, one that King could fill. Given his later introduction in the story and gradual power escalation.

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## LightningForce (Aug 30, 2021)

Katakuri high-diffs. King has already bled from Marco’s basic attacks and Katakuri has equally devastating attacks to that with his superior flame-like BH (similar to Boundman and BM’s BH application).

King hasn’t shown any feats to imply he can bypass FS either.


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## Klarionan (Aug 30, 2021)

So far still Katakuri except King borrows Luffy's plot-armour, but that might change if King finally gets good feats soon.


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## Dunno (Aug 30, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> No. Both Luffy and Zoro were laid out by the same technique from Kaido. Raimei Hakke. That said, Kaido only uses that speed with that technique, similar to Zoro and Shishi Sonson. Both Zoro and Luffy were able to deal with Kaido's base speed generally outside of that.


Zoro wasn't laid bare by that technique. He was already incapacitated when he was hit by that attack. Law was also not laid bare by that attack. He was fast enough to react to it and block it, and he also took minimal damage from it. The only one who was knocked out by it was pre-Udon Luffy. And Luffy couldn't keep up with Kaido's speed outside of that attack either. He was hit by and knocked out by Ragnarok as well. Is that also an exception? I see lots of exceptions when it comes to Luffy's speed.



xenos5 said:


> Just as pissed as when he thought his crewmates, the people who are like a family to him, might’ve been killed? Cmon you can’t really believe that. He does not care about the scabbards in anywhere near the same way.
> 
> Heck why would Luffy be surprised FS didn’t let him completely dodge Thunder Bagua if he used it the first time? He would already know from experience if he had been able to use FS back then.


Just as pissed might be an exaggeration, but he was very pissed in both scenarios, meaning FS can be used while you're mad. 

Perhaps because he had improved his FS and reaction speed from before, and was still too slow. Perhaps because he couldn't really remember what happened last time because of his concussion. Perhaps because he's read posts from people wanking his speed, so he thought he'd be faster than he was.

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## trance (Aug 30, 2021)

42-44 

this is much closer than i thought it'd be


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 30, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Yeah sorry, just used it as an example assuming Luffy with whatever powerup he gains (codenamed "G5") will be around Kaido's ballpark. my logic is that since Zoro is facing King and Luffy is facing Kaido, they are all not that far apart.
> 
> Can we please for a second look at the details? Sure, Katakuri did well against G4 when it was used, but you are willfully or ignorantly ignoring _why_.
> 
> ...


I'm not ignoring anything, Cracker did indeed have Gear Fourth mostly boxed in. That's when Luffy noted his Buso was harder than Doflamingo's. I've always maintained that was a type matchup issue. A blunt force attack going against a clone fighter with a shield. I've even said that Zoro would do better in that fight than Luffy.

But we're talking Katakuri here.

You've already conceded that Katakuri has power, why do you insist that it's greatly inferior to King's though? And yes, his observation powers are his crowning glory, but his offense and defense were nothing to fuck with either. And part of Luffy's victory was Katakuri doing critical damage to himself.



Shunsuiju said:


> We get more fighting, we go away from the fight, and in the end when Luffy unlocks the future sight, he can match Katakuri, not with a strength form, but with a speed form in Snakeman.
> 
> So I think what I've established here is that Katakuri is not actually that strong. What makes him so powerful is his ability to evade attacks.


Then why would Luffy go to speed if he could overpower him with brute force? Because brute force isn't the answer to defeating Katakuri for anyone. His future sight isn't just about evasion, he can counterattack before the attack launches nullifying it before it comes out, he can use it to plan and launch perfect attacks.




Shunsuiju said:


> Now obviously Katakuri's the strongest sibling, but I want to draw the comparison to Cracker again, because I think the Big Mom pirates had a theme: They were not muscular tanky baddasses, they were tricky and smart. The exact opposite of Kaido's henchmen. Cracker dominated Luffy at the start of their fight, then Luffy pulled out Boundman, sent Cracker flying with his suit, just like Katakuri and just like Doflamingo. Cracker used his expert skill with his devil fruit to make his biscuit army and Luffy couldn't beat him, not even in G4. There is very little difference in the actual performance of Katakuri and Cracker vs Luffy.


Well they're certainly more reliant on skill and technique than their raw strength and durability, durability of which Cracker had none. But Kaido's men have craftiness of their own, especially Queen. Cracker proved himself an excellent stall fighter, halting Luffy's progress and trapping him.




Shunsuiju said:


> It's always held up. Do you not think Luffy would roll over Arlong come the end of the timeskip? They (the Strawhats) are always getting stronger, and in an arc where Luffy is facing Kaido, I'd think the guy Zoro's facing would be pretty damn powerful, given the two Strawhat's closeness to each other.


What the hell are you talking about? Luffy rolled over Arlong the first damn time.

I don't necessarily follow with all that Luffy and Zoro are close to each other in strength thing. It's not the type of thing where Luffy is gonna steamroll Zoro, or Sanji or Jinbe for that matter, but Luffy always has a substantial edge. 

At this juncture I place King, Katakuri, and Zoro in the same class. This is Zoro's time to pass them.



Shunsuiju said:


> Did I miss that part? Dofy was playing around Croc. The guy who lost to Alabasta Luffy.


If that's the case then Crocodile had no business at Marineford at all. He had clearly lost some of his strength after his loss to Whitebeard because before that he was also a New World Pirate. Strength is not set in stone, not even over short periods of time.



Shunsuiju said:


> Whitebeard and Roger's crews were presented as equal, yet no one says Marco sees eye to eye with Rayleigh. Especially when they had their big fights and rivalry before Roger became the Pirate King.


Well was Marco first mate of the Whitebeard Pirates when they were contemporaries?

The Yonko have always been presented as standing equally alongside one another and stalemating each other. That's not something the Roger and Whitebeard Pirates ever had. It was a friendly rivalry. Not the fourway deadlock that came after, so you're comparing apples and oranges. While Marco would be expected to stand shoulder to shoulder with King, Katakuri, and Beckman, the Roger pirates were ultimately established as the superior crew. Before his performance here people were underestimating Marco's capacity in battle. They were proven wrong, he has the goods.




Shunsuiju said:


> This is just terribly faulty logic. Is Bepo equal to Zoro? They are both the second men to Supernova captains.


That's also different based on the details, as Zoro is also a Supernova.



Shunsuiju said:


> He's not top-tier in brute strength or combat ability. He floats around the bottom of it due to his top-tier observational skills making him a disaster fight for many.


Those observational skills that make him a disaster fight IS Top Tier Combat Ability.



Shunsuiju said:


> We don't know that at all. There is a pretty big gap between Katakuri and the strongest fighters, one that King could fill. Given his later introduction in the story and gradual power escalation.


This is an unbridgeable opinion difference between us. That gap to my eye isn't large at all.


Dunno said:


> Zoro wasn't laid bare by that technique. He was already incapacitated when he was hit by that attack. Law was also not laid bare by that attack. He was fast enough to react to it and block it, and he also took minimal damage from it. The only one who was knocked out by it was pre-Udon Luffy. And Luffy couldn't keep up with Kaido's speed outside of that attack either. He was hit by and knocked out by Ragnarok as well. Is that also an exception? I see lots of exceptions when it comes to Luffy's speed.


But what evidence do you have that he would've dodged it clean when full health? I think Law simply had the benefit of Zoro eating most of the hit. Also Law didn't catch it in the head. 

Also, are you insinuating that Law is more physically durable than Gear Fourth Boundman?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dunno (Aug 30, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> But what evidence do you have that he would've dodged it clean when full health? I think Law simply had the benefit of Zoro eating most of the hit. Also Law didn't catch it in the head.
> 
> Also, are you insinuating that Law is more physically durable than Gear Fourth Boundman?


I'm arguing that TB isn't that fast, since only Luffy and Law have had the opportunity to react to it, and Law managed to do so without much trouble. The only one who has been blitzed by the attack has been pre-Udon Luffy, which puts that version of him far below Law in terms of combat speed. I'm insinuating that Law has significantly faster reaction speed than pre-Udon Luffy, since he was able to react to an attack that pre-Udon Luffy didn't even see. How well he would have done if he hadn't blocked it is hard to say, but he couldn't have done much worse than Luffy. What we can say is that Zoro with a broken body took the attack far better than Luffy did, so his endurance is far above pre-Udon Luffy's. 

Being one-shot by an attack that did little to both a half-dead man and a guy who's not known for being tanky is a really bad showing. No matter how to try and twist it, that Luffy was a scrub compared to his current contemporaries.


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## TheRealSJ (Aug 30, 2021)

convict said:


> Seriously someone did a calculation and Katakuri gave Luffy over 90 blows in that match compared to 12 or something received. That speaks well to his ability to evade but incredibly poor on his ability to tank and wound. His offense won't do much to King.


A bit late but here




Katakuri has a lot of versatility and a lot in general as a part of his arsenal but his lack of endurance is disappointing.


Maybe because he is used to never being defeated and relies on future sight.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Useful 1


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## TheRealSJ (Aug 30, 2021)

MO said:


> Fire doesn't counter Mochi. How many times does that need to be said.


I mean I don't know it's pretty obvious in real life that fire does "counter" dough.



However you're Probably right, small scale fire attacks like red hawk won't be able to counter Katakuri's Mochi.


Although on a full scale attacks from the Mera Mera no mi like Hiken would probably be bad news for Katakuri. 




Fire hardens mochi, Katakuri needs his mochi to be fluid for it to be as useful. It's as simple as that.


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## TheRealSJ (Aug 30, 2021)

Dunno said:


> I'm arguing that TB isn't that fast, since only Luffy and Law have had the opportunity to react to it, and Law managed to do so without much trouble. The only one who has been blitzed by the attack has been pre-Udon Luffy


Rooftop Luffy who claimed he was reading the future as well still couldn't fully dodge the attack because "it's so fast".

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## AmitDS (Aug 30, 2021)

They are supposed to be equals judging from them being the top commanders on Big Mom and Kaido's crews however I prefer Katakuri so I think it goes either way but if I have to choose 1 person I'd chose him.

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Aug 31, 2021)

Thats hilarious. Katakuri landed 123 hits to Luffy on panel not counting the off panel hours while he fell to only 13 hits?


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## Mihawk (Aug 31, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> A bit late but here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While this does illustrate his lack of durability/endurance (not his style anyways) 

it also shows how much of a Bullshit fight it was and that Luffy should've never walked away the victor. 

*Ran away: 0:4 Luffy
Overpowered/Lost power struggle: 0:15 Luffy 
Brutally attacked/coughed blood: 10:27 Luffy
Landed punches: 9:99 Katakuri*

Also *Helped/Given advantages* being a ratio of 0:6 in favour of Luffy is wrong considering Katakuri impaled his own gut with his trident lol.

but yeah fight was plot

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Sablés (Aug 31, 2021)

King is too much of a tank for Katakuri.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 31, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> when Crocodile and Doflamingo can square off evenly


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## Draghensalk (Aug 31, 2021)

King already defeated the old hag superior of Katakuri 

He wins with low diff as per canon


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 31, 2021)

Dunno said:


> I'm arguing that TB isn't that fast, since only Luffy and Law have had the opportunity to react to it, and Law managed to do so without much trouble. The only one who has been blitzed by the attack has been pre-Udon Luffy, which puts that version of him far below Law in terms of combat speed. I'm insinuating that Law has significantly faster reaction speed than pre-Udon Luffy, since he was able to react to an attack that pre-Udon Luffy didn't even see. How well he would have done if he hadn't blocked it is hard to say, but he couldn't have done much worse than Luffy. What we can say is that Zoro with a broken body took the attack far better than Luffy did, so his endurance is far above pre-Udon Luffy's.
> 
> Being one-shot by an attack that did little to both a half-dead man and a guy who's not known for being tanky is a really bad showing. No matter how to try and twist it, that Luffy was a scrub compared to his current contemporaries.


It can't really be called slow though since even with Future Sight fully active Luffy felt it was too fast to evade completely.

It's hard to say that Luffy took it better since he was completely incapacitated. He was talking again by the time Sanji was done wrapping him up, but it's a poor view of how long he was out. Luffy was still broadcasting Haoshoku Haki before and was awake before he made it to prison.

Second, Law didn't block at all. He raised his sword to attack, then he *and* Zoro got lit up before he could even swing.



If you're trying to give them any shine you might say that Gear Fourth Luffy was defeated by Kaido in base, and Zoro and Law were laid out by Kaido in hybrid, but I feel like the Haohshoku Haki behind the attack would be the same either way.



TheRealSJ said:


> A bit late but here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But I mean...that doesn't account for something like ten hours of the fight where Luffy barely made any progress. Katakuri didn't even show signs of fatigue until he stabbed himself.


TheRealSJ said:


> I mean I don't know it's pretty obvious in real life that fire does "counter" dough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not, bread per say. It's more of a starchy gel like a tough pudding.

_*Mochi*_ (: , もち) is a Japanese  made of _mochigome_, a short-grain  , and sometimes other ingredients such as water, sugar, and . The rice is pounded into paste and molded into the desired shape.

_Mochi_ is a multicomponent food consisting of , , , and water. _Mochi_ has a heterogeneous structure of  gel,  grains, and air bubbles.  This rice is characterized by its low level of  starch, and is derived from short- or medium-grain japonica rices. The protein concentration of the rice is higher than that of normal short-grain rice, and the two also differ in amylose content. In _mochi_ rice, the amylose content is negligible, and the  level is high, which results in its gel-like consistency.

Katakuri's Mochi likely has high water content, considering Jinbe was able to easily blow it apart. There's also the fact that fire has been shown to have no effect.



Red Hawk here is shown to be hot enough to no diff Perospero's candy which is vulnerable to fire. The same attack however-


Is immediately stopped by Katakuri's mochi copy. Luffy continues his attack with this.



Hawk Gatling being an attack that still uses flames, hit Katakuri right in the Mochi and did nothing.


TheRealSJ said:


> Rooftop Luffy who claimed he was reading the future as well still couldn't fully dodge the attack because "it's so fast".


This.


Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Thats hilarious. Katakuri landed 123 hits to Luffy on panel not counting the off panel hours while he fell to only 13 hits?


But that's something like ten hours of off panel action.


Strobacaxi said:


>


Marineford. Because seriously, the way people judge around here even playing with Crocodile he should've blown him out the frame.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 3


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 31, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Marineford. Because seriously, the way people judge around here even playing with Crocodile he should've blown him out the frame.


Mate, DD could've literally one shotted him at any point and you know it. Crocodile attacked DD and DD blocked his attack with no effort. When DD cut his head off, he could've used CoA and killed him right there and then.

Crocodile is far weaker than DD, but even he wouldn't get blown away by getting his attack blocked lol


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## convict (Aug 31, 2021)

We haven't even had spoilers yet but just in case we do reminder please don't mention anything here until sunday. We have had to give short bans to people even first time offenders as that is a hardline policy now.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 31, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Mate, DD could've literally one shotted him at any point and you know it. Crocodile attacked DD and DD blocked his attack with no effort. When DD cut his head off, he could've used CoA and killed him right there and then.
> 
> Crocodile is far weaker than DD, but even he wouldn't get blown away by getting his attack blocked lol


I don't know it, actually. Crocodile didn't survive in the New World off of people's kindness. I'm sure plenty of people came for his head with Haki in their blades.


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## deltaniner (Aug 31, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I don't know it, actually. Crocodile didn't survive in the New World off of people's kindness. I'm sure plenty of people came for his head with Haki in their blades.


Seems clear to me that Crocodile got soft after heading back to Paradise. Too used to effortlessly curbstomping everyone.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 31, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> I don't know it, actually. Crocodile didn't survive in the New World off of people's kindness. I'm sure plenty of people came for his head with Haki in their blades.


A lot of people survive in the NW without haki and without being particularly strong

Besides, MF Croc was definitely not as strong as the Croc who went after WB he lost his touch in paradise. Post TS Croc will probably be a different story tho

Reactions: Agree 1


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## deltaniner (Aug 31, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> A lot of people survive in the NW without haki and without being particularly strong
> 
> Besides, MF Croc was definitely not as strong as the Croc who went after WB he lost his touch in paradise. Post TS Croc will probably be a different story tho


This.

Croc who tried for WB>>>Marineford Croc>>Alabasta Croc

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dunno (Aug 31, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> It can't really be called slow though since even with Future Sight fully active Luffy felt it was too fast to evade completely.
> 
> It's hard to say that Luffy took it better since he was completely incapacitated. He was talking again by the time Sanji was done wrapping him up, but it's a poor view of how long he was out. Luffy was still broadcasting Haoshoku Haki before and was awake before he made it to prison.
> 
> ...


Oh, I was certain Law's sword was in front of him, blocking the attack. In that case, TB is faster than I previously though, but weaker. Zoro wasn't laid out by Kaido though, he was laid out by Hakai.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1 | Optimistic 1


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## TheRealSJ (Aug 31, 2021)

Amatérasu’s Son said:


> Katakuri's Mochi likely has high water content, considering Jinbe was able to easily blow it apart. There's also the fact that fire has been shown to have no effect.


I mean I'm not familiar really with mochi since I've never used it but I assumed it to be similar to dough.



However if it has a property of high water content doenst that prove my point?

Katakuri mostly needs mochi to an fluid like, to be as effective and versatile.

Extreme heat would dry up the mochi mochis liquified sort of state and make it brittle wouldn't it?

Personally I think it's clear the *mera* *mera no mi's flames > red hawk* or any fire based attack Luffy should be able to output.

We have some nice heat feats for it after all.


Aces flames were said to be strong enough to burn cities and turn them to "hell on earth".



- In the Ace Novel he made a winter island stop snowing just because of his presence, due to the mera mera.

- His flames were powerful and hot enough to neutralise Kuzans Ice and turn it into steam



*Note that Kuzans Ice has some good heat resistant feats as it was durable enough to last for 10 days in a tropic region of the sea:

*


Sabo's first fire fist was strong enough to destroy the ring and *burn underwater.

*

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## trance (Aug 31, 2021)

123 attacks compared to 13

LMAO


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## Dead Precedence (Aug 31, 2021)

trance said:


> 123 attacks compared to 13
> 
> LMAO


Katakuri seems to be like Floyd Mayweather if the latter had a glass chin.


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 31, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> Katakuri seems to be like Floyd Mayweather if the latter had a glass chin.


Plot infused attacks have 1000% critical hit damage tho

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Captain Altintop (Sep 1, 2021)

By now I'd put them equal and together with Marco I'd scale all of the YC1 slightly bit higher.


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## Oda Report (Sep 2, 2021)

King stomps kat.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Sep 3, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> I mean I'm not familiar really with mochi since I've never used it but I assumed it to be similar to dough.


It's not dough, it's more of a candy. Look up Non-Newtonian Liquid, that stuff you can mix up from starch and if you stand on it you sink like quicksand, but if you run across it it looks like running on water.



TheRealSJ said:


> However if it has a property of high water content doenst that prove my point?
> 
> Katakuri mostly needs mochi to an fluid like, to be as effective and versatile.
> 
> ...


That's fair, but it would still require the actual Mera mera or Magu Magu no Mis to even approach that. Devils Fruits aren't going to purely align with logic. Luffy's rubber should've melted or burned under Enel's Lightning otherwise. It's still magic Mochi.

That said, Katakuri's Haki is way above Ace's.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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