# How strong is Base Naruto?



## Itachі (Oct 19, 2013)

I mean, in Part 1 he was quite strong.

The parts where he really shined were when he used Kyuubi's chakra though.

How strong do you think Naruto is currently in base mode?

He'll probably be strong but I'm not sure what to think.

I miss seeing Nardo in base form, battles were more tactical.

Still the same Kage Bunshin + Rasengan/FRS feint though.


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## ToadFlameBomb (Oct 19, 2013)

well, base naruto was weaker than hebi sasuke.

Kyubi is cheap, naruto didn't shine for me till he achieved sage mode. Thats all his power


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## Bonly (Oct 19, 2013)

Naruto is a Kage level ninja in base IMO. Huge Rasengan's, FRS, can make hundreds of clones, ability to summon four boss sized toads, can summon Ma+Pa, and his increased taijutsu skills should place him comfortably as a Kage Level ninja.


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## Itachі (Oct 19, 2013)

He can't use FRS in Base, I thought.

He can only throw it in SM or BM can't he?

It's arguably his strongest technique against a single foe.

I have never seen a Rasengan kill anybody in this Manga though IIRC.


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## Jak N Blak (Oct 19, 2013)

Stronger than all the Kage's except Onoki.


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## ueharakk (Oct 19, 2013)

back in the immortals arc he was stated on multiple occasions to had been at least kakashi's equal after his fuuton training.

That means he's at least immortal's arc kakashi level and therefore at least kage level.  Since then he's improved a lot with taijutsu, speed, reactions, physical strength in addition to gaining abilities like chou oodama rasengan.  In the war, just one of his base clones was fighting at the kage level and was deemed more valuable than anyone else in the alliance (bar gaara and oonoki).

I'd put current Base Naruto around the lower end Gokage's level.



Itachi☆Uchiha said:


> He can't use FRS in Base, I thought.
> 
> He can only throw it in SM or BM can't he?
> 
> It's arguably his strongest technique against a single foe.


He can use FRS in base.  He's only forbidden from using it because it will do damage to his arm.  It's naruto's equivalent of an MS jutsu in that if he continues to use it a lot, he'll eventually suffer chronic repercussions.  That doesn't mean he isn't allowed to use it.

And of course that's also if you don't go full battledome and allow naruto to use the technique through a clone (which would negate FRS's ill effects to naruto completely).



Itachi☆Uchiha said:


> I have never seen a Rasengan kill anybody in this Manga though IIRC.


Have you seen a PS slash kill anyone in the manga?  Or kirin?  Does that mean raikiri > those techniques?  But anyways, rasengan killed asura and deva path, double rasengan killed animal and naraka path, kcm rasengan 'killed' that edo magnet release user.  Unless rasengan is up against a person who's significantly more durable than those guys, it kills them.


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## Krippy (Oct 19, 2013)

He's low kage level, comparable to people like Tsunade, Konan, Base Kakashi and Base Itachi. Just under Base Sasuke and Base Kirabi.


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## Bonly (Oct 19, 2013)

Itachi☆Uchiha said:


> He can't use FRS in Base, I thought.
> 
> He can only throw it in SM or BM can't he?
> 
> ...



Yes he can.

There's nothing suggesting he can't throw it in base currently but he has only thrown it in SM or KCM.

Indeed.

We haven't seen Amaterasu kill anyone in the manga either.


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## Itachі (Oct 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> back in the immortals arc he was stated on multiple occasions to had been at least kakashi's equal after his fuuton training.
> 
> That means he's at least immortal's arc kakashi level and therefore at least kage level.  Since then he's improved a lot with taijutsu, speed, reactions, physical strength in addition to gaining abilities like chou oodama rasengan.  In the war, just one of his base clones was fighting at the kage level and was deemed more valuable than anyone else in the alliance (bar gaara and oonoki).
> 
> ...



I meant that he wouldn't be able to use it in base without damaging himself.

I didn't say that Rasengan was weak.

It just isn't a mostly guaranteed lethality like Raikiri or FRS.

Against Kabuto it didn't kill him, not sure as to whether he healed himself though.


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## ueharakk (Oct 19, 2013)

Itachi☆Uchiha said:


> I meant that he wouldn't be able to use it in base without damaging himself.
> 
> I didn't say that Rasengan was weak.
> 
> It just isn't a mostly guaranteed lethality like Raikiri or FRS.


if a rasengan is used at full power, it's as lethal as chidori or raikiri.  In fact SM Naruto's rasengan was proven to be significantly stronger than raikiri when it one-shotted asura path while raikiri, chouza's punch, shinra tensei and a full body electrocution couldn't put down asura path. 



Itachi☆Uchiha said:


> Against Kabuto it didn't kill him, not sure as to whether he healed himself though.


- that was part 1 naruto's first rasengan, his rasengans of the same size have become much more powerful since then
- kabuto used his entire chakra reserves (that were boosted 3 folds by the soldier pill) to heal himself and he still was defeated by the technique, he just didn't die


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## Itachі (Oct 19, 2013)

Great explanations guys.

Thanks Ueharakk too.


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## Enki (Oct 19, 2013)

High Jonin or Low Kage level.


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## Panther (Oct 19, 2013)

Mid-Kage lvl.

If we compare him to the Gogake, then he's stronger than Mei - Gaara - Tsunade, but weaker than A and Ohnoki.

He is comfortably above Base Kakashi - Base Itachi and Base Sasuke, they would just get wrecked against a guy which has the taijutsu feats and speed to keep up with them and can easily spam thousand of Chou Odama wielding KB's.


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## Lace (Oct 19, 2013)

my guess is he's probably at about Kakashi's level


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## Ersa (Oct 19, 2013)

Wind Arc Naruto is roughly on par with Immortals Arc Kakashi. Since then he's gained more summons, better physical stats, Chou Odama Rasengan in base and Kyuubi's cooperation for genjutsu/chakra lending. He's at the very least mid-Kage level, stronger than the likes of Mei and Tsunade I feel.


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## Jagger (Oct 19, 2013)

Kage level. 

Huge amount of clones, big chakra reserves, the ability to summon large and powerful summons, FRS (he might able to throw it using a clone), a powerful barrage of rasengans that were capable of stopping Madara's Jukai Koutan.


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## Luftwaffles (Oct 19, 2013)

Kage-level


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## Rindaman (Oct 19, 2013)

We should also consider how having the  complete cooperation of Kurama effects his abilities in base, for example can he now do a rasengan without a clone? Does his sensing abilities remain even without KCM on? It seems like he can Summon whomever as far his toads are concerned, but most important imo,will  he be able to do partial transformations & chakra arms from base , like Bee?

If it's yes to all of these questions , then I think it puts him at High Kage level.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 19, 2013)

Wind arc Naruto needed kyuubi chakra to make a frs.  He needed kyuubi chakra to make an oodama rasengan.  In fact, sm Naruto said he couldn't beat the severely weakened Sasuke that every kage spent a turn beating up on.  Now he doesn't even attempt to fight any one low kage or higher without some power up mode, and even then he hasn't stomped any of them even when he had kage level support.  He's strong enough, but not super.


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## Rindaman (Oct 19, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Wind arc Naruto needed kyuubi chakra to make a frs.  He needed kyuubi chakra to make an oodama rasengan.  In fact, sm Naruto said he couldn't beat the severely weakened Sasuke that every kage spent a turn beating up on.  Now he doesn't even attempt to fight any one low kage or higher without some power up mode, and even then he hasn't stomped any of them even when he had kage level support.  He's strong enough, but not super.



He used Odama- Rasengan in base vs Madara.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 19, 2013)

Not strong enough to be relevant.

Naruto had been relying on power ups ever since. There is no such thing as base Naruto imo.


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## ueharakk (Oct 19, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Wind arc Naruto needed kyuubi chakra to make a frs.


What is this based on?



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He needed kyuubi chakra to make an oodama rasengan.


yeah, at the beginning of part 2, some 400 chapters ago.  His base clone of a base clone is able to make Chou oodama rasengan, and that was 100 chapters ago.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> In fact, sm Naruto said he couldn't beat the severely weakened Sasuke that every kage spent a turn beating up on.


Where's elia with his viz link that shows naruto wasn't talking about power.  And that doesn't really matter considering at that time, naruto was seconds away from passing out due to the poison.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Now he doesn't even attempt to fight any one low kage or higher without some power up mode, and even then he hasn't stomped any of them even when he had kage level support.  He's strong enough, but not super.


So you are saying that Naruto opting not to purposefully gimp himself by fighting kage level opponents in base means that he isn't kage level?

Didn't stomp any of them even when he had kage level support?  Are you talking about a single KCM Naruto clone?  That obviously has nothing to do with how a full powered KCM Naruto would do against those opponents if mere clones are able to take them down.  Evaluate gaara, mei and oonoki by that same logic and none of them stomp any kage level ninja despite having kage level support.


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## kaminogan (Oct 19, 2013)

i think he is jounin level/high jounin level,

imo,


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## LogiaMaster666 (Oct 19, 2013)

Base mode Naruto is quite powerful. He almost beat Pain with Sage Mode, and yes, I more or less consider that base mode, but maybe base mode is considered him without sage mode. If you basically just mean Naruto without any Kyuubi influence then he's kage levelish. Don't know if he'd beat Oonoki without Kyuubi, but he is Naruto after all...


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## kaminogan (Oct 19, 2013)

base naruto is far from sage mode naruto,

the aura abilities,

ORT,

and throwable rasen shuriken, 

the only advantage base naruto has is clones,


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 19, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> In fact, sm Naruto said he couldn't beat the severely weakened Sasuke that every kage spent a turn beating up on.



... are you serious with this post? You believe that Sage Naruto, who was hyped to be stronger than Sasuke following the Killer Bee fight (ergo, having attained the Mangekyo Sharingan and Amaterasu), is inferior to a blind, half-dead version of his rival whose physical strikes were so slow at that point that even* Base* Naruto could intercept and snatch Sakura from his arms when the former's blade was but a few inches from the kunoichi's neck?

Christ, I thought this issue had been largely rid of and agreed under a consensus, but the deluded opinions of some of the NBD never cease to amaze.


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## Ersa (Oct 20, 2013)

It's the Tsunade fanboys crying because Naruto has surpassed her in base. 

Cause the Sannin are so strong.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2013)

Well the frogs alone put him on kage level. He has all of their arsenal (Water Balls, Oil Spit, Syrup Gun, Katons, Futons, Tongue Cutter, Tongue Scent, Tongue Wrapping, Dust Cloud, Frog Call, Frog Song, Frog Kata) and food cart destroyer. Three of his frogs can enter sage mode on panel increasing their strength, speed, durability and sensory. 

When we add in Deva Path level Taijutsu, 1,000 clones, deceptive transformation techniques, Twin Rasengan, Omeda Rasengan, Chou Omeda Rasengan, and Wind Rasengan he's comfortably mid-kage level. Of course, everyone's definition of "kage level" varies.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 20, 2013)

He's Low-Kage in strength, about equal to Hebi Sasuke.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 22, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Stronger than all the Kage's except Onoki.


A too? Without SM, I doubt it.



Krippy said:


> He's low kage level, comparable to people like Tsunade, Konan, Base Kakashi and Base Itachi. Just under Base Sasuke and Base Kirabi.


Definitely not. Naruto was low kage level in chapter 343. Improved chakra pool/stamina, better physical stats, better taijutsu, Chou Oodama Rasengan, auto genjutsu defense, and a wealth of knowledge from Kurama means this guy is Mid Kage level now. Base Sasuke is still low kage level btw. Tsunade is more mid kage level too.



GreenDBM90 said:


> High Jonin or Low Kage level.


Much too low. He was Kakashi level 300 chapters ago. He didn't regress from low kage level. He only improved.



Panther said:


> Mid-Kage lvl.
> 
> If we compare him to the Gogake, then he's stronger than Mei - Gaara - Tsunade, but weaker than A and Ohnoki.
> 
> He is comfortably above Base Kakashi - Base Itachi and Base Sasuke, they would just get wrecked against a guy which has the taijutsu feats and speed to keep up with them and can easily spam thousand of Chou Odama wielding KB's.


Basically this.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Wind arc Naruto needed kyuubi chakra to make a frs.  He needed kyuubi chakra to make an oodama rasengan.  In fact, sm Naruto said he couldn't beat the severely weakened Sasuke that every kage spent a turn beating up on.  Now he doesn't even attempt to fight any one low kage or higher without some power up mode, and even then he hasn't stomped any of them even when he had kage level support.  He's strong enough, but not super.


No he didn't. He did it without Kyuubi chakra as well. He was saying at full power if they fought they would draw. Why would Naruto have a drawn out battle against a low-mid kage level by staying in base when he can just enter a more powerful form to end it quickly? Why would Goku fight a long drawn out battle against Piccollo in SSJ when he can just go SSJ3 to end it quickly? Basically your logic doesn't confirm any conclusion about him being weaker. Nor does it have anything to do with Base Naruto's strength.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> i think he is jounin level/high jounin level,
> 
> imo,



That is why your opinion is bad, and we laugh at you behind your back.

Easy Kage level!


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## Arles Celes (Oct 22, 2013)

Elite Jounin-Low kage.

He had spent plenty of time powering his new super modes instead of improving his base. So his base is probably still the same as it was after the Wind Arc IMO.

Sasuke and Kakashi probably hadn't improved their base forms much either. Its all about powering their eyes.


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## Trojan (Oct 22, 2013)

According to some of Itachi's fans part1 Naruto was stronger than Itachi & Kisame.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Panther said:


> Mid-Kage lvl.
> 
> If we compare him to the Gogake, then he's stronger than Mei - Gaara - Tsunade, but weaker than A and Ohnoki.
> 
> He is comfortably above Base Kakashi - Base Itachi and Base Sasuke, they would just get wrecked against a guy which has the taijutsu feats and speed to keep up with them and can easily spam thousand of Chou Odama wielding KB's.



I would have to agree with this.

Put naruto up agains each kage 100 times, and he would win at least 50% of the fights I bet.


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## Krippy (Oct 22, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Definitely not.



Indeed he is.



> Naruto was low kage level in chapter 343. Improved chakra pool/stamina,



So?



> better physical stats



Nope.



> better taijutsu,



Barely.



> Chou Oodama Rasengan



Meh.



> auto genjutsu defense, and a wealth of knowledge from Kurama means this guy is Mid Kage level now.



Nope.



> Base Sasuke is still low kage level btw. Tsunade is more mid kage level too.



Nope. Base Sauce > Base Naruto. He kept up with KCM Naruto just fine and his portrayal in Base has always been better.

Tsunade is debatable.



ATastyMuffin said:


> ... are you serious with this post? You believe that Sage Naruto, who was hyped to be stronger than Sasuke following the Killer Bee fight (ergo, having attained the Mangekyo Sharingan and Amaterasu), is inferior to a blind, half-dead version of his rival whose physical strikes were so slow at that point that even* Base* Naruto could intercept and snatch Sakura from his arms when the former's blade was but a few inches from the kunoichi's neck?
> 
> Christ, I thought this issue had been largely rid of and agreed under a consensus, but the deluded opinions of some of the NBD never cease to amaze.



Nah, naruto himself admitted he needed KCM to fight Sasuke, so the only "consensus" that he was superior or even equal to him is mostly fanbased.


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## ueharakk (Oct 22, 2013)

Arles Celes said:


> Elite Jounin-Low kage.
> 
> He had spent plenty of time powering his new super modes instead of improving his base. So his base is probably still the same as it was after the Wind Arc IMO.
> 
> Sasuke and Kakashi probably hadn't improved their base forms much either. Its all about powering their eyes.



Except naruto's base will always continue to improve even if he works on making his other modes better.  He's got better speed, taijutsu, reactions, chakra feats than his wind arc base mode in addition to the ability to use things like chou oodama rasengan with a base clone of a clone.



Krippy said:


> Nope. Base Sauce > Base Naruto. He kept up with KCM Naruto just fine and his portrayal in Base has always been better.



Wait so base Sasuke = KCM Naruto?  When was the last time his portrayal in base > Naruto's base?  If you want to go portrayal then Base Naruto = KCM Naruto since they both *'kept up' with sasuke.*  Actually, by your portrayal Base Naruto > KCM Naruto = Base sasuke considering Naruto was keeping up with base sasuke using only punches and kicks while sasuke had to use a sword.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 22, 2013)

Probably about the same level as Kakashi without MS and Gai without Gates. Maybe a little bit stronger.


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## Jak N Blak (Oct 22, 2013)

How strong is Base Naruto?

Go ahead - Act like Naruto can't bring 4 Boss Toads to any battle in an instant.
Go ahead - Act like Base Naruto didn't counter Birth of Trees from Edo Madara with an exhausted clone. Something, only Onoki out of the current Kages, could deal with. Who might I add is considered a High Level Kage.
Go ahead - Act like Naruto didn't deal with Deva Path and Kakuzu in Base, who both placed massive pressure on Kakashi.
Go ahead - Act like Naruto wasn't one of the people who closed the distance and got past Juubi's clones to get a hit on him with just ONE of his summons despite the likes of Gai, Kitsuchi, Darui, Bee and other Mid-High Tier Kage contenders being present.
Go ahead - Act like facing Juubi, Madara Uchiha and Juubi Jinchuuriki Obito wouldnt expand Naruto's skills and intelligence in all areas.

GO AHEAD.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Indeed he is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





This has to be a troll.



Jak N Blak said:


> How strong is Base Naruto?
> 
> Go ahead - Act like Naruto can't bring 4 Boss Toads to any battle in an instant.
> Go ahead - Act like Base Naruto didn't counter Birth of Trees from Edo Madara with an exhausted clone. Something, only Onoki out of the current Kages, could deal with. Who might I add is considered a High Level Kage.
> ...



Don't be bringing facts here bro!
They can ride on his shoulders and have super powered ninjutsu easily kage level, probably higher.

You forgot the sage mode frogs though.


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## Itachі (Oct 22, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> How strong is Base Naruto?
> 
> Go ahead - Act like Naruto can't bring 4 Boss Toads to any battle in an instant.
> Go ahead - Act like Base Naruto didn't counter Birth of Trees from Edo Madara with an exhausted clone. Something, only Onoki out of the current Kages, could deal with. Who might I add is considered a High Level Kage.
> ...



I agree with you for most points except this.

All Nardo did was do some Kage Bunshin feints with Kakuzu and finish him off while Kakashi did the real work in my opinion.

All Naruto did with Deva path is get there before Deva's ability returned.

He did to an awesome job in that fight but the defeat wasn't anything spectacular.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Itachi☆Uchiha said:


> I agree with you for most points except this.
> 
> All Nardo did was do some Kage Bunshin feints with Kakuzu and finish him off while Kakashi did the real work in my opinion.
> 
> ...



Kakuzu was kicking Kakashi's ass!

Stop smoking shit.
No one else at the time could have defeated pain.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 22, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Indeed he is.
> 
> So?
> 
> ...



He isn't.

This is called an improvement. So you can't counter it. I already know.

Yes indeed. He has been training and fighting. Thus improving his physical abilities. The second thing you can't counter.

Not barely. He learned an entire new style. So the third thing you can't counter. I am sensing a pattern for you.

I presume you acknowledge I am correct and instead of giving someone credit like a mature adult you refuse to give said acknowledgement. That's okay.

He doesn't have genjutsu defense thanks to Kurama and Kurama does not have a wealth of experience and strategy to offer Naruto in combat? So you disagree with the manga.

Ha good logic. Just simply stating the inverse of what I said. Base Naruto >  Base Sasuke. See how easy it is? You mean the time when they drew on the rooftop in base form? That's the fair only base vs base fight they have had and it was draw. So no you are incorrect sir. When Naruto all injured ran in and attacked a juubi clone Sasuke was side by side in his base form cutting one too. Only when Naruto unleashed KCM did Sasuke unleash his EMS to save Sakura. And Naruto had KCM active fighting side by side with EMS Sasuke. The correlation is Base v. Base and KCM v. EMS. You don't know what you are talking about. Clearly. And just to bring it back, since Naruto was low kage level 300 chapters ago and had multiple improvements than guess what? He is now mid kage level.

She is mid kage level.

'kept up' with sasuke.
Naruto does not want to draw with Sasuke. He wants to beat him. Naruto says he would draw with Sasuke and that he can't defeat him. That is the same thing. He needs Kurama to outright defeat him. SM alone at that time would just force a draw which he doesn't want.


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## Itachі (Oct 22, 2013)

@Johnsuwey

Did you even read my post?

I said Nardo beat Pain's ass.

But the defeat was kind of boring.

Kakuzu was kicking Kakashi's ass but he still managed to take away 3 of his hearts.

While Naruto came right at the end and took away two with one attack.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

No, Kakashi killed 1 heart via an ambush.  

Shikamaru got the other.


Naruto took out 3, kakashi just finished him off when he was going to die any damn way.


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## Itachі (Oct 22, 2013)

Seriously.

I know that.

Kakuzu was stronger than Kakashi.

I'm just saying the _ending_ of the battle wasn't spectacular.

Nardo basically did nothing but jump in at the end with Kakuzu.

Edit: He edited his post btw.


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## Jak N Blak (Oct 22, 2013)

Frankly, what happened in the Kakuzu fight doesn't even matter. With the feats Naruto currently has...Kakuzu would be defeated in 5 panels maximum.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Ok, I agree.  The ending was meh.


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## Itachі (Oct 22, 2013)

Sorry, I forgot about the hearts thing.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 22, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> How strong is Base Naruto?
> 
> Go ahead - Act like Naruto can't bring 4 Boss Toads to any battle in an instant.
> Go ahead - Act like Base Naruto didn't counter Birth of Trees from Edo Madara with an exhausted clone. Something, only Onoki out of the current Kages, could deal with. Who might I add is considered a High Level Kage.
> ...



Go ahead - Act like this isn't half-baked information that you're bringing to the table. Especially the point with Kakuzu and Pain. 

Base Naruto (assuming without Kurama's help) is high Jounin-low Kage level at best.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 22, 2013)

Kakashi was low kage level at the time of Kakuzu fight. Naruto was his equal or better. He has improved in 300 chapters. Thus making him above low kage level. Very simple.


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## Psp123789 (Oct 22, 2013)

Naruto has 6 toad summons and 3 of them can use sage mode. With this along with COR barrage, Rasenshuriken and enough skill to match people like deva and Itachi in taijutsu, he should definitely be mid kage lvl.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Go ahead - Act like this isn't half-baked information that you're bringing to the table. Especially the point with Kakuzu and Pain.
> 
> Base Naruto (assuming without Kurama's help) is high Jounin-low Kage level at best.



How is any of that half baked?
Jounin?  Jounin are fodder anymore!

Naruto is easily Kage level.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 22, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> How is any of that half baked?
> Jounin?  Jounin are fodder anymore!
> 
> Naruto is easily Kage level.



It's half baked because if you take his statements out of the context of what happened in the story, they would be two completely different scenarios. For example:

"Go ahead - Act like Naruto didn't deal with Deva Path and Kakuzu in Base, who both placed massive pressure on Kakashi."

If Naruto in base beat Deva Path, both fresh, then we would have something to talk about. However, Deva Path had used Chou Shinra Tensei on Konoha before he arrived, and Naruto wore him down with Sage Mode, summons, Chibaku Tensei and 6TK. Would base Naruto have dealt with Deva Path had he been fresh on Chakra and pre-Chou Shinra Tensei? Even post-CST when he had his ability back, he could still do this casually. He didn't even come close to using that amount of power against base.

Hence, half baked information.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> It's half baked because if you take his statements out of the context of what happened in the story, they would be two completely different scenarios. For example:
> 
> "Go ahead - Act like Naruto didn't deal with Deva Path and Kakuzu in Base, who both placed massive pressure on Kakashi."
> 
> ...


Deva path with all the chakra focused in him!  Lets not forget that huge important factor shall we.
Lets not forget he was tangoing with the nearly released kyuubi a few minutes prior to the ending either shall we.

Who else was going to stand up to deva path?  
Ohh wait, no one!

You are just a lil fanboy of some other character trying to downplay his accomplishments/abilities.


We all know the story, so we all know the context.  
His points were more than valid!
He didn't even include the sage mode frogs!


I will take Base Naruto with some summons over any Kage!


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 22, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Deva path with all the chakra focused in him!  Lets not forget that huge important factor shall we.
> Lets not forget he was tangoing with the nearly released kyuubi a few minutes prior to the ending either shall we.
> 
> Who else was going to stand up to deva path?
> ...



You would take Base Naruto over Hashirama? And you call ME a fanboy? I feel bad for the Naruto fans who have to sit back and watch this pathetic display.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> You would take Base Naruto over Hashirama? And you call ME a fanboy? I feel bad for the Naruto fans who have to sit back and watch this pathetic display.



Current Kage obviously!
Obviously I didn't mean the past kage!

This just further proves you are a fanboy.  
Strawman is the only thing you can argue with.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 22, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Current Kage obviously!
> Obviously I didn't mean the past kage!
> 
> This just further proves you are a fanboy.
> Strawman is the only thing you can argue with.



It would have been a strawman if you had said current Kage from the beginning. 

Do you seriously think though that base Naruto would have beaten Deva Path pre-Chou Shinra Tensei or even Pre-Chibaku Tensei? If your answer is yes, explain. If no, then his point is half-baked.


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> It would have been a strawman if you had said current Kage from the beginning.
> 
> Do you seriously think though that base Naruto would have beaten Deva Path pre-Chou Shinra Tensei or even Pre-Chibaku Tensei? If your answer is yes, explain. If no, then his point is half-baked.



You might have a point if any current Kage could have done it.
The answer is no, so there ya go.

You are also trying to dismiss a ton of points on the basis of 1 that is arguable!


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Oct 22, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> You might have a point if any current Kage could have done it.
> The answer is no, so there ya go.
> 
> You are also trying to dismiss a ton of points on the basis of 1 that is arguable!



1: Naruto has never been shown to summon 4 giant toads at the same time.

2: That "exhausted clone" was given Chakra by Kurama to counter Jukai Koutan.

3: Naruto and Sasuke were the only ones that went for the Juubi while the others purposefully fought the fodder...

4: Facing the top tier Shinobi have only increased his proficiency in using mass destruction lol.


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> 1: Naruto has never been shown to summon 4 giant toads at the same time.
> 
> 2: That "exhausted clone" was given Chakra by Kurama to counter Jukai Koutan.
> 
> ...



1)  Who cares?  He could easily do it, that is obvious.
2)  True.   Doesn't change the fact he did it though.
3)  The others are fodder by comparison.
4)  Nonsense.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Oct 22, 2013)

Do not come before the Jak with goat level responses like these.



Master Sephiroth said:


> 1: Naruto has never been shown to summon 4 giant toads at the same time.
> 
> 2: That "exhausted clone" was given Chakra by Kurama to counter Jukai Koutan.
> 
> ...



Look at this.
I could respond to and shut down your responses so EASILY. But that's exactly it. It's TOO easy to shut down your arguments & you're probably aware of this. I've been here too many times.
Just the typical way of stringing me out for multiply useless responses trying desperately to 'prove my point.'

I have no interest in it. What I have said is done. I'm more of a,'take it or leave it' guy in the Dome now. Its way too easy to get caught up in troll responses that can have you running in never ending circles.

Too many wise men have unfortunately fallen for this sick, gutter shit.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Oct 22, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Do not come before the Jak with goat level responses like these.



I'm glad you think the Master Sephiroth is the goat (greatest of all time). The Master Sephiroth is happy. 



> Look at this.
> I could respond to and shut down your responses so EASILY. But that's exactly it. It's TOO easy to shut down your arguments & you're probably aware of this. I've been here too many times.
> Just the typical way of stringing me out for multiply useless responses trying desperately to 'prove my point.'
> 
> ...



I see. Well then, I wouldn't want to waste your precious time.


----------



## Tarot (Oct 22, 2013)

High Jonin-low kage(w/summons)


----------



## Krippy (Oct 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Wait so base Sasuke = KCM Naruto?



Sauce can hold his own against him, sure. 



> When was the last time his portrayal in base > Naruto's base?



Since his feats in base were better.



> If you want to go portrayal then Base Naruto = KCM Naruto since they both *'kept up' with sasuke.*  Actually, by your portrayal Base Naruto > KCM Naruto = Base sasuke considering Naruto was keeping up with base sasuke using only punches and kicks while sasuke had to use a sword.



they were attacking in tadem there, nowhere in the 20 or so chapters Naruto was in KCM was he portrayed better. If you really think a using a sword is not part of someone's base taijutsu then I don't know what to tell you.

It's simple. Sasuke has naturally high base stats and hax in his arsenal. Naruto has meh base stats which he uses modes like SM, KCM, and BM to buff himself and create bigger rasengans/more clones. 

If Naruto's base was stronger that would mean SM and KCM Naruto would steamroll Sauce and alot of other high/top tiers in a taijutsu fight which obviously isn't the case when people like Itachi can keep up with him just fine.


----------



## jacobsmith (Oct 24, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Sauce can hold his own against him, sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



KCM Naruto = Base Sasuke?!?  Dafuq?

Where are these Sasuke base feats at exactly?



> If Naruto's base was stronger that would mean SM and KCM Naruto would steamroll Sauce


No, it means the Sharingan is so hacks that he is basically shit without it.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 24, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Sauce can hold his own against him, sure.


So you believe that base Sasuke as in with just the three tomoe sharingan can hold his own against KCM Naruto?




Krippy said:


> Since his feats in base were better.


and when was that?  250 chapters ago? Since this is current base Sasuke and current base naruto, comparing their past standings don't in anyway apply.  



Krippy said:


> they were attacking in tadem there, nowhere in the 20 or so chapters Naruto was in KCM was he portrayed better. If you really think a using a sword is not part of someone's base taijutsu then I don't know what to tell you.


During those 20 or so chapters when he was portrayed against a battleworn KCM Naruto who was saving up chakra for BM, he used enton and V3 susanoo, that's not base sasuke in any way.

Using a sword isn't someone's base taijutsu, swords are classified as kenjutsu.

And hold up, right before this you make a feat-based argument, which means you can't use portrayal unless you want to cater to a double standard. 



Krippy said:


> It's simple. Sasuke has naturally high base stats and hax in his arsenal. Naruto has meh base stats which he uses modes like SM, KCM, and BM to buff himself and create bigger rasengans/more clones.


Naruto using other modes in order to boost his base stats in no way shape or form leads to the conclusion that he's weaker than sasuke without those boosts.  You'd have to compare his actual abilities and stats in base to reach that conclusion.  

Sasuke's answer to SM, KCM and BM is his different levels of susanoos and his MS/EMS jutsu, and exactly what base stats is sasuke superior in?  the only thing I can think of is speed and reaction due to teh sharingan.  Strength is a no, taijutsu is a no, naruto craps on sasuke's chakra reserves, craps on sasuke's durability.  So no naruto has just as much super base stats as sasuke, just in different areas and I hope you don't mean hax as in enton attacks and EMS genjutsu since that's obviously not base Sasuke.



Krippy said:


> If Naruto's base was stronger that would mean SM and KCM Naruto would steamroll Sauce and alot of other high/top tiers in a taijutsu fight which obviously isn't the case when people like Itachi can keep up with him just fine.


  Just what the hell man?  Are you saying that a base fight where ninjutsu and genjutsu are restricted is in some way indicative of showing who is stronger in base?

How about this, base sandaime raikage vs base hashirama, restrict both to only taijutsu, and who wins?   does that mean that base sandaime raikage > base hashirama? Don't waste my time.

what opponent has SM Naruto not steamrolled in a taijutsu fight?  He absolutely dominated deva path while kakashi who fights exactly on par with MS sasuke got the short end of the stick in their exchange.

Finally, since you don't dispute base naruto being greater than base sasuke if restricted to only taijutsu, then logically KCM and SM Naruto would dominate him.


----------



## jacobsmith (Oct 24, 2013)

Wait did I just read that Itachi is keeping up with KCM naruto?  Dafuq?  No, just no.   That 10 second skirmish in which naruto was only trying to question EDO Itachi does not in any way imply that.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Oct 24, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Sauce can hold his own against him, sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Since his feats in base were better.




KCM Naruto would demolish Base Sasuke. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. You're high off your rocker if you think Base Sasuke is on par with KCM Naruto.

Not really. Naruto can summon boss frogs. Sasuke has one boss snake to speak of. Sasuke can summon a Hawk for flight. Naruto's toads can leap so damn high its basically flight. Naruto's frogs can actually use jutsu though. Naruto 350-400 chapters ago could put a kunai to a 3 tomoe sharingan user's back, draw with Yamato's taijutsu with a single Kage Bunshin, and force back Chiyo's formidable taijutsu with 1 Kage Bunshin. Kakashi also calls him clever after their engagement. He dodges Itachi's katon jutsu. He managed to sneak up on an Akatsuki as well (Deidara) and briefly held off Orochimaru while already almost out of chakra and extremely exhausted. This is all pre wind training. Post wind training he matched wits with an Akatsuki (Kakuzu), tricking him on multiple occasions. Kakashi was extremely impressed with his tactics and Chouji even compared him to Shikamaru. With three Kage Bunshins and already beaten up and tired from training, he managed to make an opening on an Akatsuki and landed a blow. He tricked him again after that and put him down for good. Kakashi claims Naruto is his equal after this or even better. He later shows to force back Kabuto in a taijutsu scuffle and coordinates team attacks with Yamato and Kiba pretty well. I'll stop at post wind training.

Sasuke's base feats? Tactically he tricked Deidara and Danzou. Impressive. But no more impressive than Naruto tricking Kakuzu (and later Nagato) as well as Kakashi's subsequent praise. He impressed Deidara with his speed and managed to sneak up on him. He was able to stave off Killer Bee's kenjutsu onslaught for a brief amount of time. At least managed to block 15-20 strikes. Pretty impressive as well. Dodged A's elbow from point blank range. However, both Juugo and Suigetsu reacted to A's attacks and blocked. I find Post Wind Training Naruto to be at least as fast as them if not faster. Sasuke avoided a Kage using his sharingan and made an opening while Naruto used 3 Kage Bunshins to make an opening on an S-Class Shinobi. Both are equally impressive. Blocking those swords is also impressive but so is pushing back Chiyo's taijutsu with a Kage Bunshin, pushing back Kabuto's taijutsu, and putting a kunai to Kakashi's back. After all, the end result was Sasuke getting run through. Naruto faced no outcome remotely similar. These are some of base Sasuke's best feats. The thing is you can't confuse having more feats, with having better feats.

This alone makes Post Wind Training Base Naruto on par with Base Sasuke. Naruto shows he can counter the 3 tomoe sharingan through Kage Bunshins. He can counter his skill with taijutsu/kenjutsu with his own taijutsu and Kage Bunshins. Katons can be avoided as shown against a faster shinobi. Thanks to Chiyo, Naruto knows the key to beating genjutsu is through numbers i.e. Kage Bunshins. He has the tactical ability to match wits with Sasuke. Chidori eisou was reacted to by a bed ridden, lying down, half dead, not paying attention Orochimaru. Naruto reacts just fine and avoids/bunshin feints it. Chidori Nagashi can be countered with fuuton. Fuuton: Rasengan could get through and wreck Sasuke or potentially building up fuuton chakra in the hands to cancel it out. Chidori sword can be caught and with fuuton in the hands, cancel out the raiton. Chidori loses to Fuuton: Rasengan. Frogs counter snakes. 

That's why the two were on par in base. However, Naruto has now acquired a gigantic chakra pool from Kurama, his wealth of knowledge and experience, Chou Oodama Rasengan, Frog Katas, improved physical stats, and more experience and knowledge from all of this fighting. With these improvements, Base Naruto is above Base Sasuke as of right now.



Krippy said:


> If Naruto's base was stronger that would mean SM and KCM Naruto would steamroll Sauce and alot of other high/top tiers* in a taijutsu fight* which obviously isn't the case when people like Itachi can keep up with him just fine.



Umm no. It just means that this manga isn't Bleach. Most fights aren't stomps. Base Naruto is stronger than Base Sasuke. Let's say without any Kurama influence at all (meaning he doesn't even talk to him or lend ANY chakra), they are roughly equals in base. Naruto got SM and Sasuke got MS and they were compared. Zetsu said Naruto was superior before he saw Susano. Then once Susano comes out in full force we find out they are equals and would kill each other. Naruto goes for Kurama training and Sasuke gets Itachi's eyes. So then the portrayal is KCM Naruto is on par with EMS Sasuke. Now Naruto uses BM and Sasuke starts feeling really inadequate. Sasuke then gets Perfect Susano to match Naruto's BM. 

And at the bold, there is a lot more to a shinobi's strength than just taijutsu. By that logic you think Base Itachi can actually stand a chance against KCM Naruto. And let me give you a hint: if I made that thread, it would be locked within the hour due to sheer stupidity. And just to tell you again, KCM Naruto was holding back. He punched as fast as Killer Bee swung Samehada, and his kick matched Itachi's 3.5 tier strength. He held back strength wise and speed wise.

P.S. You claim you want to use feats but also argue portrayal. You seem to be contradicting on this point.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Oct 24, 2013)

Lol.
Krippy.
Hahahaha.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 25, 2013)

Low-Kage level

Kage Bunshin, Rasengan and formidable summons
Access to Kurama's chakra is helpful, too...


----------



## jacobsmith (Oct 25, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Low-Kage level
> 
> Kage Bunshin, Rasengan and formidable summons
> Access to Kurama's chakra is helpful, too...



You forgot some stuff,


Huge Chakra capacity by himself!

Top tier taijutsu.  Very high Strength & Speed.

Odama Rasengan.

FRS.  Yes he can use it in base, even if it's only an incomplete version, but likely the real deal too.  There really is no reason why he couldn't, though his shots would be very limited.

Sage frogs give him top tier wind & fire ninjutsu.(Probably water too, but that was only in anime.)

Sage frogs give him top tier Genjutsu.

Genjutsu immunity via Kurama

*Mid kage easily imo.*


If you want to give him access to Kurama's chakra, then we need to up this to the next level.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 25, 2013)

jacobsmith said:


> You forgot some stuff,
> 
> 
> Huge Chakra capacity by himself!
> ...



Thanks for clarifying that.


----------



## Krippy (Oct 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> So you believe that base Sasuke as in with just the three tomoe sharingan can hold his own against KCM Naruto?



Umm.... yeah. I don't see why not. Unless you are talking about KCM clones then he would obviously need his Mangekyo



> and when was that?  250 chapters ago? Since this is current base Sasuke and current base naruto, comparing their past standings don't in anyway apply.



Sasuke's barely done anything in this war so far and he still looks better in base than Naruto who almost never utilizes his base for direct combat.



> During those 20 or so chapters when he was portrayed against a battleworn KCM Naruto who was saving up chakra for BM, he used enton and V3 susanoo, that's not base sasuke in any way



They both used Enton and FRS to tag Obito, there's nothing that suggest Sasuke couldn't (or had trouble with) physically keep up



> Using a sword isn't someone's base taijutsu, swords are classified as kenjutsu.
> 
> And hold up, right before this you make a feat-based argument, which means you can't use portrayal unless you want to cater to a double standard.



It's still his base. Just like all weapons like Kunai and Shuriken 



> Naruto using other modes in order to boost his base stats in no way shape or form leads to the conclusion that he's weaker than sasuke without those boosts.  You'd have to compare his actual abilities and stats in base to reach that conclusion.



I did. And I concluded that his base is weaker. The databook and feats agree with me



> Sasuke's answer to SM, KCM and BM is his different levels of susanoos and his MS/EMS jutsu, and exactly what base stats is sasuke superior in?



Nah, Susano'o isn't needed for SM and KCM unless Naruto spams clones. 

Speed, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and handseals. Taijutsu is around the same I guess



> the only thing I can think of is speed and reaction due to teh sharingan.  Strength is a no, taijutsu is a no, naruto craps on sasuke's chakra reserves, craps on sasuke's durability.  So no naruto has just as much super base stats as sasuke, just in different areas and I hope you don't mean hax as in enton attacks and EMS genjutsu since that's obviously not base Sasuke.



the Hax thing was in regards to his whole arsenal, not his Base



> Just what the hell man?  Are you saying that a base fight where ninjutsu and genjutsu are restricted is in some way indicative of showing who is stronger in base?



No, i'm saying his base isn't as good as you're implying



> How about this, base sandaime raikage vs base hashirama, restrict both to only taijutsu, and who wins?   does that mean that base sandaime raikage > base hashirama? Don't waste my time.







> what opponent has SM Naruto not steamrolled in a taijutsu fight?  He absolutely dominated deva path while kakashi who fights exactly on par with MS sasuke got the short end of the stick in their exchange.



lel. He didn't dominate shit, he barely put a scratch on deva path. And Kakashi (who was in no place to avoid getting stabbed) barely got the upperhand on an exhausted Sasuke



> Finally, since you don't dispute base naruto being greater than base sasuke if restricted to only taijutsu, then logically KCM and SM Naruto would dominate him.



Base Sasuke > Base Naruto


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2013)

SM Naruto wold beat Sasuke in a Taijutsu fight because Sasuke cannot see the ghost punches. He would dodge a blow, and his neck would subsequently break.

KCM Naruto would beat Sasuke in a Taijutsu fight because of Chakra arms that the Sharingan cannot predict.


----------



## Sans (Oct 26, 2013)

Sasuke's base form at the Valley of the End beat Naruto's jinchuriki transformations, I see no reason for that to have changed.


----------



## DCI Kurusu (Oct 26, 2013)

Base Nardo with 100% access to Kurama chakra is, if you will allow things to go OOC, at least High Kage level. Near-infinite shadow clone spam, each w/ Giant Rasengan is enough to destroy nations..

It acts as an impenetrable defense (see Nardo vs. Madara prior to the Gokage vs. Madara fight) and amazing offense..


----------



## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Umm.... yeah. I don't see why not. Unless you are talking about KCM clones then he would obviously need his Mangekyo
> 
> 
> Sasuke's barely done anything in this war so far and he still looks better in base than Naruto who almost never utilizes his base for direct combat.
> ...



KCM Naruto is KCM Naruto with ALL of his jutsu. Don't try to change the statement now that you realize your own ridiculousness and fanboyism. That's like saying, "OHHHH I meant Nagato WITHOUT his rinnengan! What did you think I meant?" It's laughable, just stop.

Feats and character statements tend to disagree with you. But you ignore those clearly. Kind of sad.

Weird how Sasuke needed EMS jutsu to keep up with Naruto's KCM jutsu. Hmm... couldn't be an obvious parallel or anything cause we all know Kishimoto HATES parallels 

Actually I already went over feats. Kept up with people superior to Sasuke in taijutsu. Kunai to the back of a three tomoe sharingan user just as fast as him Sasuke. Learned method for dealing with sharingan genjutsu from Chiyo. Shown to dodge katons from Itachi. So pre wind training Naruto can deal with Sasuke genjutsu wise, taijutsu/speed wise, and katon ninjutsu but loses to his raiton ninjutsu/tactics. Post fuuton training, Naruto shows to trick an Akatsuki multiple times and impresses Kakashi with his tactics. Tactically he becomes on par. Ninjutsu wise, he has Fuuton: Rasengan to beat any raiton in his arsenal. Frogs to counter snakes. Logically he has become his equal at this point. Kakashi confirms. Kakashi at this time is roughly on par with Base Sasuke. He uses raitons with a superior one in the form of raikiri, he has better taijutsu, on par speed, a 3 tomoe sharingan, and sharingan genjutsu. Doesn't have katons but he has suitons, dotons, and clones to make up for it as well as being a superior strategist. I did not even mention the Mangekyou Sharingan. Kakashi is roughly on par with Base Sasuke at this time (maybe better) and Naruto was said to be on par with Kakashi. Kakashi and Sasuke's similar fighting styles makes it easy to see Base Naruto being on par with Base Sasuke. 

Off topic, but for one, Naruto always uses clones, so that is a dumb stipulation, "if Naruto spams clones." And secondly, considering Naruto can dodge Amaterasu with KCM, no he would need Susano to handle KCM Naruto with or without clones.

Databook doesn't help you either really. I'll ignore the fact that it is 300 chapters out of date for the sake of argument because I have already informed you that post fuuton training Naruto is on par with Base Sasuke. When Naruto fought Sasuke on the rooftop when both were in base form Sasuke had his sharingan activated. Per the databook, Sasuke had an advantage in speed, taijutsu, ninjutsu, genjutsu, intelligence, and seals. They were tied in strength. Naruto had an advantage in stamina. Oh and a sharingan added to help him that isn't included in databook stats. By your logic, Sasuke should have DOMINATED Naruto because of all of his advantages. But Sasuke had all of those advantages and yet the battle on the rooftop was a draw. So per the databook and according to you, Sasuke gets the same advantages (ninjutsu, genjutsu, speed, hand seals, etc) and now he is superior? Part 1 already taught you that if you try to measure out stats like that, you will be wrong, but now you are attempting to use logic Kishi debunked years ago and apply it here? Silly.

Naruto while exhausted fended off Deva's strikes. Sasuke while also exhausted had his sharingan active and was clearly sent flying back by Kakashi who didn't have his sharingan active. Sasuke fought a lesser opponent in a shorter taijutsu scuffle and was knocked backwards. 

Not based on anything you have said. You just seem to ignore people's arguments. A concession in and of itself.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Sasuke's base form at the Valley of the End beat Naruto's jinchuriki transformations, I see no reason for that to have changed.



Umm no he didn't. He beat KN0 that did not use ninjutsu. He beat one form. So he defeated one jinchuriki transformation 450 chapters ago. Instead of me posting 450 chapters of information, perhaps you should just read the manga. Sasuke defeated KN0 through his 3 tomoe sharingan precognition, Naruto's lack of clone/summon usage, and his inability to recognize that just charging straight at him with his new sharingan could not get it done. Naruto now knows that Kage Bunshins are needed and shows his learning from Sasuke in his first encounter with a sharingan user after, by putting a clone to his backside and out of his LoS to counter the precog.

These shinobi have developed and changed constantly. Give a little more respect to Sasuke's and Naruto's  (I know that's hard for you) development and actually post something of substance or don't at all. Thanks.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 26, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Umm.... yeah. I don't see why not. Unless you are talking about KCM clones then he would obviously need his Mangekyo


I'll make the thread then.  KCM Naruto vs base sasuke.



Krippy said:


> Sasuke's barely done anything in this war so far and he still looks better in base than Naruto who almost never utilizes his base for direct combat.


Again, what is this based on?  What did he do in the war that makes his base look better than naruto's?  




Krippy said:


> They both used Enton and FRS to tag Obito, there's nothing that suggest Sasuke couldn't (or had trouble with) physically keep up


Um, first off you weren't talking about physicality, you were talking about base sasuke being on the same level as KCM Naruto.
Second, if it's a combination attack between KCM Naruto and Sasuke obviously naruto's not going to run at full speed if.... he needs to be right next to sasuke in order to power the combo attack.



Krippy said:


> It's still his base. Just like all weapons like Kunai and Shuriken [//qute]


Sure, but it's not taijutsu....




Krippy said:


> I did. And I concluded that his base is weaker. The databook and feats agree with me


You've surely STATED that his base is weaker, and stated that by feats his base is weaker, but you've given zero manga evidence to support that statement.  And the last databook came out in 2008 back when naruto's base was indeed weaker, in addition to the fact that simply adding up the stat totals is a fallacious way of showing the general levels of characters since databook stats are capped and they sometimes contradict manga feats.




Krippy said:


> *Nah, Susano'o isn't needed for SM and KCM unless Naruto spams clones. *
> 
> Speed, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and handseals. Taijutsu is around the same I guess


Bolded is an assertion, back that assertion up with an argument.  And em, by your very portrayal argument sasuke was utilizing susanoo to keep up with a battleworn KCM Naruto who didn't use any clones.  So no.



Krippy said:


> the Hax thing was in regards to his whole arsenal, not his Base


Well, since you don't disagree with the rest of my post, then you concede then that their bases are equal due to naruto's chakra reserves and stamina making up the difference in speed and reactions.




Krippy said:


> No, i'm saying his base isn't as good as you're implying


Which isn't implied by a 1 vs 1 taijutsu fight in base, which means that the arguments you've used to support your assertion are illogical and hold no water.




Krippy said:


>


since that isn't a counterargument then I guess you concede the point.



Krippy said:


> lel. He didn't dominate shit, he barely put a scratch on deva path. And Kakashi (*who was in no place to avoid getting stabbed*) barely got the upperhand on an exhausted Sasuke


Deva path got completely dominated.  They went up in taijutsu on 2 occasions, the first time, he got sent flying and couldn't even stand up after blocking a kick.  The next time he got kicked into a boulder 30 meters away by a naruto who's was more focused on getting deva's chakra rod than trying to kill him.  

I don't understand what you mean by the bolded.  Sasuke wasn't exhausted at that point, if you read the manga you'd see that he got a full heal from karin after he stabbed danzou.  Since he bit her and his spar against kakashi, he used just 2 jutsus: chidori and chidori spear.  So no, not exhausted and performance obviously not hindered.




Krippy said:


> Base Sasuke > Base Naruto


seeing as that doesn't address the post you've quoted then you've conceded that base naruto can fight base sasuke in taijutsu and that KCM and SM Naruto would beat him.


----------



## Etherborn (Oct 26, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Umm.... yeah. I don't see why not. Unless you are talking about KCM clones then he would obviously need his Mangekyo



KCM Naruto would beat base Sasuke with taijutsu alone. Clones would be overkill. Hell, sage Naruto could beat base Sasuke. I don't even understand why you're comparing the two. 



> Sasuke's barely done anything in this war so far and he still looks better in base than Naruto who almost never utilizes his base for direct combat.



I'll give you that. If all you're arguing is that base Sasuke beats base Naruto, then that's reasonable, but current base Naruto and base Sasuke are featless, so it's hard to say. 



> Nah, Susano'o isn't needed for SM and KCM unless Naruto spams clones.



Why wouldn't he spam clones? Is he supposed to hold back?



> Base Sasuke > Base Naruto



If you're just stating your opinion, then that's fine, but you seem really sure of yourself for some reason. We haven't seen base Sasuke fight anyone worth mentioning for a while now. Whether he's gotten any stronger is anyone's guess. Naruto on the other hand actually has some new feats in base if I'm not mistaken. If you ask me, it's something like this...

Base Naruto=Base Sasuke<SM Naruto=Hidden Cloud Sasuke<Kage Summit Sasuke<KCM Naruto=EMS Sasuke<BM Naruto=Current Sasuke<Current Naruto. But like I said, one can't be sure. 



Komnenos said:


> Sasuke's base form at the Valley of the End beat Naruto's jinchuriki transformations, I see no reason for that to have changed.



You mean CM2 Sasuke? He beat one tailed Naruto, which can hardly even be called a jinchuriki transformation. It was more like Naruto getting pissed and flailing angrily. The strength of Naruto's transformations grows exponentially the more chakra he gets, and his current transformations put his old ones to shame. 

It's not that you don't see reason for it to have changed. It's that you don't want to. Either that or you're really behind on the manga.


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## Sans (Oct 26, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Umm no he didn't. He beat KN0 that did not use ninjutsu. He beat one form. So he defeated one jinchuriki transformation 450 chapters ago. Instead of me posting 450 chapters of information, perhaps you should just read the manga. Sasuke defeated KN0 through his 3 tomoe sharingan precognition, Naruto's lack of clone/summon usage, and his inability to recognize that just charging straight at him with his new sharingan could not get it done. Naruto now knows that Kage Bunshins are needed and shows his learning from Sasuke in his first encounter with a sharingan user after, by putting a clone to his backside and out of his LoS to counter the precog.
> 
> These shinobi have developed and changed constantly. Give a little more respect to Sasuke's and Naruto's  (I know that's hard for you) development and actually post something of substance or don't at all. Thanks.



I actually haven't read the manga lol.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

So you're proud of your ignorance? Putting lol at the end of the sentence doesn't make what you say any more intelligent or witty. Kind of sad.


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## Sans (Oct 26, 2013)

I definitely don't put lol on the end of my posts to sound more intelligent, lol.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

Ah I see so it's there for decoration. Now it's just cute.


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## Sans (Oct 26, 2013)

Thank you.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 26, 2013)

You're welcome.


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## Etherborn (Oct 26, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> I actually haven't read the manga lol.



Why are you even here then? To get spoiled?


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## TheGreen1 (Oct 26, 2013)

Rindaman said:


> He used Odama- Rasengan in base vs Madara.



Correction! An exhausted clone summoned shadow clones who all used Odama-Rasengan in base vs Madara.

At that point, the clone was in base mode. The Clone, not Naruto himself, but a CLONE.

Also, I don't give a darn if Sasuke has a hundred Perfect Susano'o, he's not killing a serious BM Naruto who can fire multiple Bijudama's. Also, there are BM Clones, those are scarier than fuck. KCM Clones like DAT CLONE were scary as fuck, BM Clones make Sauce shit his pants.


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## Krippy (Oct 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I'll make the thread then.  KCM Naruto vs base sasuke.


 
ur so funny, twisting words like that



> Again, what is this based on?  What did he do in the war that makes his base look better than naruto's?



The fact that he's actually uses his base and still kept up fine with KCM Naruto.



> Um, first off you weren't talking about physicality, you were talking about base sasuke being on the same level as KCM Naruto.



No, I was talking about physically.



> Second, if it's a combination attack between KCM Naruto and Sasuke obviously naruto's not going to run at full speed if.... he needs to be right next to sasuke in order to power the combo attack.



And obviously if Sasuke can't keep up there would be an indication of such. You cant say he couldn't keep up without any proof.




> Sure, but it's not taijutsu....



Tomato, Tomahto 



> You've surely STATED that his base is weaker, and stated that by feats his base is weaker, but you've given zero manga evidence to support that statement.  And the last databook came out in 2008 back when naruto's base was indeed weaker, in addition to the fact that simply adding up the stat totals is a fallacious way of showing the general levels of characters since databook stats are capped and they sometimes contradict manga feats.



Please tell me what Base Naruto has done that Sasuke can't do. Naruto sure cant tango with Kirabi in a weakened state.



> Bolded is an assertion, back that assertion up with an argument.  And em, by your very portrayal argument sasuke was utilizing susanoo to keep up with a battleworn KCM Naruto who didn't use any clones.  So no.



He used Susano'o to protect Naruto, and it was the weakest form. So no.



> Well, since you don't disagree with the rest of my post, then you concede then that their bases are equal due to naruto's chakra reserves and stamina making up the difference in speed and reactions.



Nahhhhhh




> Which isn't implied by a 1 vs 1 taijutsu fight in base, which means that the arguments you've used to support your assertion are illogical and hold no water.



Taijutsu is only one element of one's base. 



> since that isn't a counterargument then I guess you concede the point.



Dont even know what the point was to begin with.



> Deva path got completely dominated.  They went up in taijutsu on 2 occasions, the first time, he got sent flying and couldn't even stand up after blocking a kick.  The next time he got kicked into a boulder 30 meters away by a naruto who's was more focused on getting deva's chakra rod than trying to kill him.



Blocking a kick and getting kicked while exhausted after fighting Kurama isn't domination.



> I don't understand what you mean by the bolded.  Sasuke wasn't exhausted at that point, if you read the manga you'd see that he got a *full heal*from karin after he stabbed danzou.  Since he bit her and his spar against kakashi, he used just 2 jutsus: chidori and chidori spear.  So no, not exhausted and performance obviously not hindered.



Karin healed his wounds, there's nothing about healing wounds that replaces one's stamina after fighting 5 kages in a day. He was dog tired, this isn't even an arguable point. Not to mention he was distracted by the rest of his team and Kakashi still couldn't get in a clean hit.



> seeing as that doesn't address the post you've quoted then you've conceded that base naruto can fight base sasuke in taijutsu and that KCM and SM Naruto would beat him.



lol. Keep dreaming



> Why wouldn't he spam clones? Is he supposed to hold back?



Does he start out every fight spamming clones? Of course not.



> If you're just stating your opinion, then that's fine, but you seem really sure of yourself for some reason. We haven't seen base Sasuke fight anyone worth mentioning for a while now. Whether he's gotten any stronger is anyone's guess. Naruto on the other hand actually has some new feats in base if I'm not mistaken. If you ask me, it's something like this...



Because my opinion is sound. Like I said, if Base Naruto's stats were really as high as Sasuke's then SM and KCM would be unstoppable in CQC. Imagine KCM Sasuke with his Shunshin and Sharingan with Town level Raitons and Chakra arm Kenjutsu. 

Fuck.


Hax + High stats = Buffs + Mid stats

Hax + High stats =/= Buffs + High stats


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2013)

Krip, Sauce isn't as fast as KCM Naruto. Sauce isn't even as fast as Raikage.


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## Sans (Oct 26, 2013)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Why are you even here then? To get spoiled?



I read lots of Naruto fanfiction, and base my opinions and arguments on that.

I think it works pretty well, I see nothing wrong with my earlier position in this thread.


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## Alita (Oct 26, 2013)

He's upper mid tier/upper jonin level IMO.


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## Sans (Oct 26, 2013)

People saying that Naruto is a mid-tier to upper-tier Jounin realise that Asuma was a relatively famous and accomplished jounin lol?


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## kaminogan (Oct 26, 2013)

i dont read manga, 

i watch anime,


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## ueharakk (Oct 27, 2013)

Krippy said:


> ur so funny, twisting words like that


I don't understand how i am twisting anything.  I asked you this:

and you responded with this:


ueharakk said:


> So you believe that base Sasuke as in with just the three tomoe sharingan can hold his own against KCM Naruto?





Krippy said:


> Umm.... yeah. I don't see why not. Unless you are talking about KCM clones then he would obviously need his Mangekyo



If you really think i am twisting words then there's got to be some kind of misunderstanding going around here.



Krippy said:


> The fact that he's actually uses his base and still kept up fine with KCM Naruto.


um....when?  When Naruto activated KCM, sasuke activated his EMS, that's no longer base sasuke.  KCM Naruto isn't always doing stuff that base naruto can't do, just because EMS Sasuke isn't always using EMS jutsu, doesn't mean that he's now the equivalent of three tomoe sasuke.




Krippy said:


> No, I was talking about physically.


well then, do you think base sasuke is physically as fast as EMS Sasuke?




Krippy said:


> And obviously if Sasuke can't keep up there would be an indication of such. You cant say he couldn't keep up without any proof.


Um... the proof is that KCM Naruto is canonically faster than V2 Ei, the same guy who's canonically faster than V1 Ei who is faster than Sasuke in movement speed.  Gaara and oonoki were able to keep up with KCM Naruto, does that mean that because there wasn't a speed statement that they are as fast as KCM Naruto?  Of course not.





Krippy said:


> Tomato, Tomahto


it's really not since you later go on to say that base taijutsu is somehow indicative of base overall vs base overall.




Krippy said:


> Please tell me what Base Naruto has done that Sasuke can't do. Naruto sure cant tango with Kirabi in a weakened state.


Sasuke didn't tango with killer bee in a weakened state, as I don't consider getting shanked by 5 swords and needing juugo and suigetsu to land a hit "tangoing".

And base naruto with his clone spamming and super rasengans have a very good chance of soloing base bee.  Finally, I'm not asserting that base naruto is above base sasuke, only that the alternative isn't true either, thus I don't need to defend the point that base naruto can do something that base sasuke can't do.




Krippy said:


> He used Susano'o to protect Naruto, and it was the weakest form. So no.


Really?  Sasuke wasn't using susanoo *here*?  *or here?*




Krippy said:


> Taijutsu is only one element of one's base.


which means you cede the point that a taijutsu fight is not indicative of a character vs character overall comparison.




Krippy said:


> Dont even know what the point was to begin with.


look it up, if you don't then you know what it means.




Krippy said:


> Blocking a kick and getting kicked while exhausted after fighting Kurama isn't domination.


It is domination if the result of blocking the kick is deva sent flying through the ground and unable to even stand up, and the result of getting kicked is getting sent flying into a boulder and unable to move your face off of the ground.  Deva path's physical strength wasn't implied to be weaker in fact since he was close to nagato he was more powerful than ever.



Krippy said:


> Karin healed his wounds, there's nothing about healing wounds that replaces one's stamina after fighting 5 kages in a day. He was dog tired, this isn't even an arguable point. Not to mention he was distracted by the rest of his team and Kakashi still couldn't get in a clean hit.


Um... what?  Biting karin gives one a full heal, it brought sasuke back from 5 mortal wounds and before the danzou fight, he got restored by zetsu, and full restored by karins healing and rest while in tobi's dimension.  So he was definitely closer to full chakra and stamina that running on empty at that point.  It really doesn't matter though since shinobi's physicality don't decrease linearly with chakra quantity anyways, a base naruto with 100% of his chakra isn't faster, more reflexive, or physically stronger than a base naruto with 80% or 50%.


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## Itachі (Oct 27, 2013)

Sasuke is still powerful without the Sharingan.

He is excellent with lightning and he has Kirin, which is an S class Jutsu.

His Katon isn't too bad either but we don't get to see much of it.

He is also pretty efficient at using his sword.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 27, 2013)

Alita54 said:


> He's upper mid tier/upper jonin level IMO.


So Part 1 Kakashi level or weaker when he surpassed part 2 Kakashi 300 chapters ago?




Krippy said:


> ur so funny, twisting words like that
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You do realize all of your arguments are baseless right? Instead of using feats, scans, or any intelligent arguments you just say Base Sasuke is superior because he has to be and if he wasn't it wouldn't make sense. I know you are a poor debater because I still have your silliness in my sig but at least learn to debate with feats, scans, or some sense of evidence. I know you have ignored my posts multiple times now. Which is unfortunate because you could definitely model your own after them, and they wreck any semblance of any argument that you have concocted if I could be so bold to call what you've written "arguments."

Learn to debate dude. It's gotten embarrassing for you. And I would hate for the state of the battledome to continue to erode because of posts like the ones you have in this thread. Thanks dude. Good luck to you.


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