# Itachi in the same situation as Kakashi



## Itachі (Nov 25, 2014)

Can Itachi knock out two ANBU fodders that Kakashi was able to with 3 Tomoe Genjutsu? My friend IchLiebe thinks that he can't, interested to see the opinions of others.


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2014)

He can obviously.


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## RBL (Nov 25, 2014)

a 'yes and no' option in an itachi's poll?

fix it please, it should be,

a)yes
b)yes


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## Nikushimi (Nov 25, 2014)

We've never seen Itachi do this, but if Kakashi could do it then it stands to reason that Itachi probably could as well. Supposedly he was capable of controlling multiple shinobi at once, according to Ao, so it's not farfetched to believe he might be capable of casting it on more than one at a time--especially if they are low-level shinobi and he takes them by surprise.


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## Jagger (Nov 25, 2014)

There's no reason of why he can't.

You can say "Oh, but he never showed the ability to do such". Does he need when we have other pieces of evidence, helping us to extrapolate the, already, obvious answer? Kakashi's mastery with the Sharingan during the series' first half isn't exactly stellar, so why wouldn't a Sharingan expert known for his fearsome genjutsu abilities be capable of replicating such feat?


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## IchLiebe (Nov 25, 2014)

Controlling someone and knocking them out is two different things (Aimed at Nikushimi). Not to mention they only said that because they couldn't think of anyone with that good of genjutsu and just threw out a name famous for genjutsu.

I'm not going to state he can or he can't. I'm just saying he hasn't. He hasn't even knocked one person out with genjutsu. Kakashi took tsukiyomi and stayed conscious for a while. All I'm saying is that by FEATS, Kakashi has better BASE genjutsu than Itachi.


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## JuicyG (Nov 25, 2014)

*Anything Kakashi can do with genjutsu, Itachi can to.*


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## IchLiebe (Nov 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *Anything Kakashi can do with genjutsu, Itachi can to.*



Anything Sasuke can do with Chidori, Kakashi can too.


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *Anything Kakashi can do with genjutsu, Itachi can to.*




*Anything Naruto can do with Rassengan, Minato can to.*


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## Nikushimi (Nov 25, 2014)

Anything Kishimoto can do with this manga, Itachi can too.


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## Jagger (Nov 25, 2014)

Hussain said:


> *Anything Naruto can do with Rassengan, Minato can to.*


He failed to use Rasenshuriken.

Checkmate.


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## Jagger (Nov 25, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Controlling someone and knocking them out is two different things (Aimed at Nikushimi). Not to mention they only said that because they couldn't think of anyone with that good of genjutsu and just threw out a name famous for genjutsu.
> 
> I'm not going to state he can or he can't. I'm just saying he hasn't. He hasn't even knocked one person out with genjutsu. Kakashi took tsukiyomi and stayed conscious for a while. All I'm saying is that by FEATS, Kakashi has better BASE genjutsu than Itachi.


Is there any reason of why we should believe he can't do the most basic act of Genjutsu? Knocking out someone?

It's like saying Madara can't use Shinra Tensei because we haven't seen him do so.


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## ki0 (Nov 25, 2014)

Anything Sasuke can do with the Sharingan, Itachi can too :amazed


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## IchLiebe (Nov 25, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Is there any reason of why we should believe he can't do the most basic act of Genjutsu? Knocking out someone?



Because he has no hype of knocking someone out, no feats, etc. He's a genjutsu master. So was Shisui. Shisui was a master because he could control people so good. Itachi's lacking in base genjutsu feats.



> It's like saying Madara can't use Shinra Tensei because we haven't seen him do so.



I'm not saying he has it. Giving him feats he don't have is reaching. He doesn't have hype for it or anything. Same way I don't give Kakashi amaterasu.


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2014)

Jagger said:


> He failed to use Rasenshuriken.
> 
> Checkmate.



It does not matter. Itachi failed to do Kamui.


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## JuicyG (Nov 26, 2014)

*You people know I'm not an Itachi fan, but even I know that Itachi > Kakashi in the genjutsu category. This may not be an argument so to speak, but at least it shows my total unbias here. Truth is Itachi hasn't shown that many spectacular feats with genjutsu when considering that he's suppose to be the genjutsu master of the series. But neither did Jiraiya show that he can use frog kata and have sage sensing, which I tend to believe and accept, so I will do the same for Itachi and accept his lack of showings as nothing more than plot (aka Kishi no jutsu)*


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## Akitō (Nov 26, 2014)

He should be able to. He's well versed in genjutsu, and has shown genjutsu that is of a higher caliber than what Kakashi did in that scene. Controlling people like he did with the female that was used to distract Jiraiya should be harder to do than simply knocking someone out.


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## Flappy (Nov 26, 2014)

With ease.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Supposedly he was capable of controlling multiple shinobi at once, according to Ao



No. He said Itachi was the most likely candidate, then quickly dismissed him saying that he couldn't.


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2014)

^ From such a large range...


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## Hachibi (Nov 26, 2014)

Obviously.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 26, 2014)

He can knock them out with his dick.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 26, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Anything Sasuke can do with Chidori, Kakashi can too.



Kakashi would do it with Raikiri, and it would be better.

OT I think he can.  When you beat someone up in genjutsu verse, they seem to pass out.  I'm pretty sure Itachi can beat up dudes in genjutsu.


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## Empathy (Nov 26, 2014)

There's no difference from wave-arc Kakashi's _Raikiri_ and Part II Sasuke's _Chidori_. The distinction was made in Part I to differentiate CE Sasuke's variant from wave-arc Kakashi's. Deidara and A both called Sasuke's technique _Raikiri_, to which Sasuke corrected them, saying he prefers to call it _Chidori_. If they saw each others' variants, then they'd probably be able to copy most. Part II Sasuke (all incarnations) being unable to use raiton as proficiently as wave-arc Kakashi, or Sasuke's _Chidori_ still being at the level of Gaiden Kakashi, is absurdity.


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## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Vice said:


> No. He said Itachi was the most likely candidate, then quickly dismissed him saying that he couldn't.



As always, Vice takes the chance to say something negative about Itachi instead of positive. :ignoramus


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## Freechoice (Nov 26, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> dudes in genjutsu.



In genjutsu? 

Why is that friendo


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> As always, Vice takes the chance to say something negative about Itachi instead of positive. :ignoramus



Am I required to say something positive about a character I don't like or something?

If you don't like what I said then blame the author for putting it in there.


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## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Vice said:


> Am I required to say something positive about a character I don't like or something?
> 
> If you don't like what I said then blame the author for putting it in there.



Nah, I just think that you go out of your way to say something negative about him and avoid saying anything positive. 

I'm not basing what I'm saying of only your post in this thread either. I respect your opinion, but I find you kind of odd.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 26, 2014)

If Kakashi could knock two anbu out, 3-T Itachi could do it with a genjutsu. 

That's not Itachi wank, that's just a fact. And I dislike Itachi.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Nah, I just think that you go out of your way to say something negative about him and avoid saying anything positive.
> 
> I'm not basing what I'm saying of only your post in this thread either. I respect your opinion, but I find you kind of odd.



If it makes you feel any better, I do believe he can easily replicate Kakashi's feat.


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## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

Vice said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I do believe he can easily replicate Kakashi's feat.



It does make me feel better, Vice. It does.


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## JuicyG (Nov 26, 2014)

_*I will say this though, I am not sure that Itachi can still cast better 3T genjutsu than Kakashi if he too was limited to one sharingan and was a non-uchiha*_


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## Itachі (Nov 26, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> _*I will say this though, I am not sure that Itachi can still cast better 3T genjutsu than Kakashi if he too was limited to one sharingan and was a non-uchiha*_



How does that change anything? Uchiha aren't naturally good at Genjutsu, it's easier for them with Sharingan but it doesn't mean that they are all good at it. Itachi is actually good at using Genjutsu.


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> _*I will say this though, I am not sure that Itachi can still cast better 3T genjutsu than Kakashi if he too was limited to one sharingan and was a non-uchiha*_



Failing to see the logic in here. Probably because there is none.


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## JuicyG (Nov 26, 2014)

Saikyou said:


> Failing to see the logic in here. Probably because there is none.



*Not sure how I can state what I  was implying any clearer, by making things between Kakashi & Itachi completely identical. And there is a generic use of genjutsu among the Uchiha, almost naturally more gifted with it than non-Uchiha members. By establishing direct eye contact with the intended opponents, the user can lock them within a genjutsu of their choosing in order to achieve various effects. These effects range from inducing instantaneous, but temporary, unconsciousness in an opponent to forcefully extract any valuable information that they possess controlling their actions or to show memories.The Sharingan's commonly-used ability is capable of inducing a unique brand of hypnosis that involves suggesting actions and thoughts to the opponent through genjutsu cast by simple eye contact between both parties.More advanced Sharingan users can take the hypnosis ability even further to the point where a powerful summon like Manda or even a tailed beast may be controlled, the latter considered a defining trait . This makes being an Uchiha a direct inherent of genjutsu usage as long as they posses the sharingan.  *​


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## Bonly (Nov 26, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Can Itachi knock out two ANBU fodders that Kakashi was able to with 3 Tomoe Genjutsu?





Yes. Yes he can.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 26, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> _*I will say this though, I am not sure that Itachi can still cast better 3T genjutsu than Kakashi if he too was limited to one sharingan and was a non-uchiha*_



Yes he would, given he has tier 5 genjutsu skilled as opposed to Kakashi's tier 4.


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## JuicyG (Nov 26, 2014)

@ Grimm

*As stated before, that may be associated with the fact that he has 2 eyes instead of 1 & is a natural born Uchiha who are generic sharingan genjutsu users*


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 26, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> @ Grimm
> 
> *As stated before, that may be associated with the fact that he has 2 eyes instead of 1 & is a natural born Uchiha who are generic sharingan genjutsu users*



itachi put part 2 naruto in a finger genjutsu he couldn't break, that feat is above kakashi's feat with sharingon genjutsu, itachi is clearly the better genjutsu user


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## JuicyG (Nov 26, 2014)

*Never was implying that Kakashi > Itachi in the genjutsu category. I was making a "what if" case with stating I was uncertain if that would still following Itachi was a not an Uchiha & had only one implanted Sharingan like Kakashi.*


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 26, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *Never was implying that Kakashi > Itachi in the genjutsu category. I was making a "what if" case with stating I was uncertain if that would still following Itachi was a not an Uchiha & had only one implanted Sharingan like Kakashi.*



ok kool my bad then i don't think being a uchiha is what gives itachi his genjutsu prowess, as we've seen many uchiha in the manga but none as good as him with the exception of maybe shisui.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 26, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> itachi put part 2 naruto in a finger genjutsu he couldn't break, that feat is above kakashi's feat with sharingon genjutsu, itachi is clearly the better genjutsu user



Chunnin Naruto vs ANBU root ninja tasked to keep SM Naruto in the village. Naruto who stay conscious vs two people who went out instantly.

LOL Kakashi's feat>>>Itachi's.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 26, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Chunnin Naruto vs ANBU root ninja tasked to keep SM Naruto in the village. Naruto who stay conscious vs two people who went out instantly.
> 
> LOL Kakashi's feat>>>Itachi's.



poor arguement




are you asserting 2 anbu fodders is better then Wind arc naruto? you do realize sm naruto was chuunin as well right? Feats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ninja rank



naruto had full knowledge and knew how to counter it yet still couldn't break it.
Kakashi clearly surprised the two anbu fodders, and again they where "fodder" since when did fodders mean anything? sasuke could beat 1000 of them with no killing intent.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 26, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> are you asserting 2 anbu fodders is better then Wind arc naruto? you do realize sm naruto was chuunin as well right? Feats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ninja rank



Wind arc Naruto never tried to break Itachi's genjutsu. He talked like Itachi wanted. And the fodder are more competent.

SM Naruto wasn't chunnin. Wind arc Naruto wasn't either. They were gennin. However beginning of part 2 Naruto was Chunnin in power. Wind Arc was Jounin. SM Naruto was Kage level.



> naruto had full knowledge and knew how to counter it yet still couldn't break it.
> Kakashi clearly surprised the two anbu fodders, and again they where "fodder" since when did fodders mean anything? sasuke could beat 1000 of them with no killing intent.



Every single ANBU member broke Kabuto genjutsu. Considering they are ANBU, I hold them to a higher standard than beginning of part 2 Naruto. (Naruto may be stronger, but ANBU should be better all around).


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 26, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Wind arc Naruto never tried to break Itachi's genjutsu. He talked like Itachi wanted. And the fodder are more competent.
> 
> SM Naruto wasn't chunnin. Wind arc Naruto wasn't either. They were gennin. However beginning of part 2 Naruto was Chunnin in power. Wind Arc was Jounin. SM Naruto was Kage level.
> 
> ...



that moment when manga panels destroy your argument 


directly

directly

directly


with access to odama rasengon, shadow clones, and a small portion of the kyubi chakra, naruto was def jounin level. wind arc is high jounin level and sm was kage




naruto with knowledge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no knowledge anbu fodder


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## IchLiebe (Nov 26, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> that moment when manga panels destroy your argument
> 
> 
> directly
> ...



I didn't say Naruto didn't know how to break genjutsu. I'm saying he's chunnin and he is. He and Sakura were getting their ass handed to them all day by Kakashi. Kakashi wasn't even tired. They was chunnin level. It wasn't til Naruto got FRS that he got jounin level.




> naruto with knowledge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no knowledge anbu fodder



Chunnin<<<<ANBU root. Remember two ANBU Root made Obito lose a fucking arm.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 27, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I didn't say Naruto didn't know how to break genjutsu. I'm saying he's chunnin and he is. He and Sakura were getting their ass handed to them all day by Kakashi. Kakashi wasn't even tired. They was chunnin level. It wasn't til Naruto got FRS that he got jounin level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You just stated naruto didn't try to break itachi's genjutsu which is false.
You make it seem like Naruto tried his very best to kill kakashi, and as i stated  naruto with a small portionof kyubi chakra and odama rasengon is easily jounin level.


All of the anbu memebers are not equal and those where danzo personal guards, not some fodder, you think kakashi could one shot them with genjutsu?


Naruto with knowledge >>>> fodder anbu


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## trance (Nov 27, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *Anything Kakashi can do with genjutsu, Itachi can to.*



More like anything Kakashi can do with genjutsu, Itachi can do three times better. 

Anyway, that was achieved with the standard, base Sharingan. Itachi mastered that version of the Sharingan by the time he was 7 or 8. So, on top of his mastery of it by then, he has 13-14 more years of added experience with it. Not only that but Kakashi has outright acknowledged Itachi as a true prodigy and master of the Sharingan. He also achieved mastery of Tsukuyomi, one of the highest level genjutsu in the world.

Honestly, it'd make zero literal sense to hype up Itachi's genjutsu and Sharingan prowess if he couldn't _at least_ do this much.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 27, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> @ Grimm
> 
> *As stated before, that may be associated with the fact that he has 2 eyes instead of 1 & is a natural born Uchiha who are generic sharingan genjutsu users*



No, sharingan doesn't increase skill in genjutsu. It amps the strength of illusions. 
Skillwise, Itachi is greater, regardless of his sharingan.

And to our knowledge, having 1 or 2 sharingan doesn't change anything regarding the potency of sharingan genjutsu. Even if it did, then like I said, Itachi'd still be a better genjutsu user simply because he has more skill in that area.


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## JuicyG (Nov 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, sharingan doesn't increase skill in genjutsu. It amps the strength of illusions.
> Skillwise, Itachi is greater, regardless of his sharingan.
> 
> And to our knowledge, having 1 or 2 sharingan doesn't change anything regarding the potency of sharingan genjutsu. Even if it did, then like I said, Itachi'd still be a better genjutsu user simply because he has more skill in that area.




*So I don't have to re-type my whole point regarding this----


there is a generic use of genjutsu among the Uchiha, almost naturally more gifted with it than non-Uchiha members. By establishing direct eye contact with the intended opponents, the user can lock them within a genjutsu of their choosing in order to achieve various effects. These effects range from inducing instantaneous, but temporary, unconsciousness in an opponent to forcefully extract any valuable information that they possess controlling their actions or to show memories.The Sharingan's commonly-used ability is capable of inducing a unique brand of hypnosis that involves suggesting actions and thoughts to the opponent through genjutsu cast by simple eye contact between both parties.More advanced Sharingan users can take the hypnosis ability even further to the point where a powerful summon like Manda or even a tailed beast may be controlled, the latter considered a defining trait . This makes being an Uchiha a direct inherent of genjutsu usage as long as they posses the sharingan.  *​


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## Icegaze (Nov 27, 2014)

Typical ichi nonesense 
Sasuke and Kakashi 2 lesser genjutsu users have knocked out people using genjutsu
Yet itachi can't 
I guess madara can't either 
Please try argue that 
Kakashi used basic genjutsu to make them sleep he has also done something that that to Sakura before 
Think it was without sharingan 

Saying itachi can casually replicate such isn't remotely the same as remotely the same as giving kakashi Amaterasu which he would need a specific MS for which he doesn't have


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## IchLiebe (Nov 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> You just stated naruto didn't try to break itachi's genjutsu which is false.
> You make it seem like Naruto tried his very best to kill kakashi, and as i stated  naruto with a small portionof kyubi chakra and odama rasengon is easily jounin level.



I said Wind arc Naruto never tried to break it. You showed beginning of part 2 Naruto. Kakashi even told them to come at him with intent to kill or they wouldn't get anywhere.



> All of the anbu memebers are not equal and those where danzo personal guards, not some fodder, you think kakashi could one shot them with genjutsu?



I put them all being able to break genjutsu.



> Naruto with knowledge >>>> fodder anbu



Beginning of part 2 Naruto<ANBU root members. Sai would wreck his shit.



Icegaze said:


> Typical ichi nonesense
> Sasuke and Kakashi 2 lesser genjutsu users have knocked out people using genjutsu
> Yet itachi can't
> I guess madara can't either
> ...



Madara has knocked out someone with genjutsu. I don't think Sasuke has with base genjutsu. I can only recall his MS genjutsu doing so.

So can Kakashi control people? You're just throwing feats to people who ain't got 'em.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 27, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I said Wind arc Naruto never tried to break it. You showed beginning of part 2 Naruto. Kakashi even told them to come at him with intent to kill or they wouldn't get anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




ok i didn't see naruto work on his genjutsu resistance but either way, beginning of part 2 naruto with knowledge >>>>>>> fodder with no knowledge.


based on what, what substantial evidence do you have that 2 fodders could break genjutsu? 
sai who was considered a genus even among anbu almost shyt his pants when sasuke put him in one had kabuto not asked him to stopped sai would of more then likely passed out



directly






so no clearly all anbu cannot break genjutsu and fodder certainly are at the bottom of the list.
if sasuke made sai almost pass out, the more skilled itachi can easily replicate the feat and do it much much worst


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## SSMG (Nov 27, 2014)

Its stated Itachi can fully control multiple shinobi at once. Full control allows for one to easily knock them out as he'd just shut off their brains. So yes Itachi should be able to KO a couple fodder shinobi with genjutsu.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> ok i didn't see naruto work on his genjutsu resistance but either way, beginning of part 2 naruto with knowledge >>>>>>> fodder with no knowledge.



Chunnin level<<<ANBU Level



> based on what, what substantial evidence do you have that 2 fodders could break genjutsu?
> sai who was considered a genus even among anbu almost shyt his pants when sasuke put him in one had kabuto not asked him to stopped sai would of more then likely passed out



That every single ANBU has broken genjutsu in the Chunnin exam arc.

When was Sai considered a genius? I don't think that's ever been said except maybe anime.

And Sasuke didn't put him in a genjutsu. That was Sai being scared. 

Same thing happened to Sakura and Sasuke except they pictured themselves dying and it was from nothing but fear.



> so no clearly all anbu cannot break genjutsu and fodder certainly are at the bottom of the list.
> if sasuke made sai almost pass out, the more skilled itachi can easily replicate the feat and do it much much worst



Sai was never in genjutsu. Every ANBU member broke Kabuto's genjutsu.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 27, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Chunnin level<<<ANBU Level
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ok you can repeat your point all you want, still doesn't make it correct, beginning of part 2 naruto is not chunin level.




that was kabuto's genjutsu 
all genjutsu are not the same, you have a serious problem generalizing things.



sai claiming he's scared was from the result of him being genjutsued, if he wasn't in a genjutsu why did kabuto yell out sasuke's name ? and sai ddn't see any images of his death, he saw sharingon symbols which is typically related to genjutsu, nice try tho :ignoramus


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 27, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *So I don't have to re-type my whole point regarding this----
> 
> 
> there is a generic use of genjutsu among the Uchiha, almost naturally more gifted with it than non-Uchiha members. By establishing direct eye contact with the intended opponents, the user can lock them within a genjutsu of their choosing in order to achieve various effects. These effects range from inducing instantaneous, but temporary, unconsciousness in an opponent to forcefully extract any valuable information that they possess controlling their actions or to show memories.The Sharingan's commonly-used ability is capable of inducing a unique brand of hypnosis that involves suggesting actions and thoughts to the opponent through genjutsu cast by simple eye contact between both parties.More advanced Sharingan users can take the hypnosis ability even further to the point where a powerful summon like Manda or even a tailed beast may be controlled, the latter considered a defining trait . This makes being an Uchiha a direct inherent of genjutsu usage as long as they posses the sharingan.  *​



Makes sense, considering part 1 sasuke was hypnotizing everyone with a glance, right ? 


Anyways this doesn't contradict what I said, so not sure what the point is.

Also it doesn't say anything about having 1 sharingan as opposed to 2.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> ok you can repeat your point all you want, still doesn't make it correct, beginning of part 2 naruto is not chunin level.



Prove it. He with Sakura couldn't do anything to Kakashi. He never fought or did anything put him jounin level. Sai, Zabuza, Asuma, and any jounin would have a field day against him.



> that was kabuto's genjutsu
> all genjutsu are not the same, you have a serious problem generalizing things.



Breaking genjutsu=breaking genjutsu. You do know Itachi's never broken a genjutsu.



> sai claiming he's scared was from the result of him being genjutsued, if he wasn't in a genjutsu why did kabuto yell out sasuke's name ? and sai ddn't see any images of his death, he saw sharingon symbols which is typically related to genjutsu, nice try tho :ignoramus



Sasuke put off that killer intent. Same way Orochimaru stood in a room with 50 people and no one was affected. Same way Hashirama is bringing down random buildings like he did against Tobirama. Same way Hiruzen is ripping apart building like him and Orochimaru were doing when they were just staying at each. It's not something that just happens, they have to do it.

There was no genjutsu, sorry.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 27, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Prove it. He with Sakura couldn't do anything to Kakashi. He never fought or did anything put him jounin level. Sai, Zabuza, Asuma, and any jounin would have a field day against him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you seriously believe part 2 naruto with a little access to kyubi chakra, summons and odama rasengon, is the same level as sound 4 arc shikamaru?

He is clearly jounin level just not high jounin.


This is idiotic, kakashi broke kabutos genjutsu and then went on to be hospitalized by tsukiyomi, every genjutsu is different and has different effects.

Itachi has reversed multiple genjutsu's threwout the manga let's try and pay attention



Wait what???

You literally just ignored my arguement and failed to answer the following


Why did kabuto call out sasuke's name and why did sai see sharingons and a bunch of other shyt instead of his own death


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## IchLiebe (Nov 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> So you seriously believe part 2 naruto with a little access to kyubi chakra, summons and odama rasengon, is the same level as sound 4 arc shikamaru?
> 
> He is clearly jounin level just not high jounin.



Show me one panel of Naruto willingly using Kurama's chakra and I'll admit he's jounin level. As it stands, Everyone jounin would wreck that Naruto's shit.



> This is idiotic, kakashi broke kabutos genjutsu and then went on to be hospitalized by tsukiyomi, every genjutsu is different and has different effects.
> 
> Itachi has reversed multiple genjutsu's threwout the manga let's try and pay attention



Tsukiyomi is an MS genjutsu.

He's reversed one, and never broke any (he needed partner method for Kabuto's)



> Wait what???
> 
> You literally just ignored my arguement and failed to answer the following
> 
> Why did kabuto call out sasuke's name and why did sai see sharingons and a bunch of other shyt instead of his own death



Because Sasuke put off killer intent. It's not the same. Hashirama's killer intent was destroying a building and no one saw anything. Orochimaru's killer intent made people see their death. Sasuke's made the sharingan shit happen.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 27, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Show me one panel of Naruto willingly using Kurama's chakra and I'll admit he's jounin level. As it stands, Everyone jounin would wreck that Naruto's shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reread kakashi vs shouten itachi, naruto willingly used the kyubi chakra when he used odama rasengon on itachi.


Didn't you just say genjutsu is genjutsu 

Orochimaru couldn't escape itachi's base sharingon genjutsu either, next your going to tell me root fodder >>>> sanin right? 




Nah bruh it was definitley genjutsu


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 1, 2014)

Itachі said:


> Can Itachi knock out two ANBU fodders that Kakashi was able to with 3 Tomoe Genjutsu? My friend IchLiebe thinks that he can't, interested to see the opinions of others.


He should be able to, but i can understand why some people would want him restricted in the battledome (considering it goes by feats, not by what you think he may or may not be able to do). Although, it should be painfully clear, that Itachi should be able to (given his expertise) not so much that just because Kakashi did it, he should be able to do it.


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## Bloo (Dec 2, 2014)

Yes, Itachi can do it. Anyone saying otherwise is insane.



IchLiebe said:


> Controlling someone and knocking them out is two different things (Aimed at Nikushimi). Not to mention they only said that because they couldn't think of anyone with that good of genjutsu and just threw out a name famous for genjutsu.
> 
> I'm not going to state he can or he can't. I'm just saying he hasn't. *He hasn't even knocked one person out with genjutsu*. Kakashi took tsukiyomi and stayed conscious for a while. All I'm saying is that by FEATS, Kakashi has better BASE genjutsu than Itachi.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 2, 2014)

Kabuto wasn't unconscious. He's even standing. He was just in a genjutsu.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Dec 2, 2014)

I would certainly think so.  We've seen him knock someone out with genjutsu (the gate guards when he walked into Konoha at his first appearance).  We've also seen that he was able to put Naruto in a genjutsu despite Naruto using his massive chakra to try and break it.


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## sabre320 (Dec 2, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Show me one panel of Naruto willingly using Kurama's chakra and I'll admit he's jounin level. As it stands, Everyone jounin would wreck that Naruto's shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lets be reasonable here give credit to itachi he was a specialist in genjutsu....capable of genjutsu that kept hebi sauke on his toes...without ms....2 anbu fodders with no sharingan...comeon man itachi could just tell them to collapse and they would comply ....controlling people is harder then knocking them out..


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## Empathy (Dec 2, 2014)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> I would certainly think so.  We've seen him knock someone out with genjutsu (the gate guards when he walked into Konoha at his first appearance).



Was that filler? Of course Itachi can replicate Kakashi's feat here, and I thought of Itachi knocking out the guard for this thread too, but I couldn't find it anywhere.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 2, 2014)

Itachi never knocked out any guards. That was in the anime. In the manga him and Kisame was shown first on top of Konoha's gate. Then the next time we see them they are in the village.


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## Bloo (Dec 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kabuto wasn't unconscious. He's even standing. He was just in a genjutsu.


He looks pretty unconscious.

I don't know why you're putting so much effort into this thread. You saying Itachi can't do it because he's never shown it is like claiming Madara can't walk on water because he's never shown that.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 3, 2014)

Madara has walked on water. Gotta know your manga or you make claims that are wrong.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 3, 2014)

There has to be some sort of leeway in order to interpret the manga, I mean, room for application and extrapolation (otherwise discussions are useless). Feats are great to talk about but by limiting ourselves just to that, we cannot explore and fruitfully discuss other possibilities. It's one of the "unspoken" rules I dislike the most.


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## Icegaze (Dec 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Madara has walked on water. Gotta know your manga or you make claims that are wrong.



no ichi he is just standing he hasnt shown the ability to continuously walk on water therefore he cant 


i guess tsunade cant either cuz she hasnt walked on water. oh wait Muu defo cant cuz he hasnt shown it. nor has onoki. All these high level ninja cant do something even karin can do wow!!

madara has never knocked out anyone with genjutsu, i.e put them to sleep. 

guess he cant despite beign >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than kakashi in genjutsu

and yes ichi kakashi can control people. he already controlled zabuza, considering your a fan you should know that. guess you didnt 

madara didnt knock out anyone. Ei wasnt put to sleep


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## Bloo (Dec 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi never knocked out any guards. That was in the anime. In the manga him and Kisame was shown first on top of Konoha's gate. Then the next time we see them they are in the village.


That's standing, not walking. Even then, I could extend your logic by saying Madara only had the ability of Susano'o with his MS because it was the only jutsu he showed.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 3, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> no ichi he is just standing he hasnt shown the ability to continuously walk on water therefore he cant





Bloo said:


> That's standing, not walking. Even then, I could extend your logic by saying Madara only had the ability of Susano'o with his MS because it was the only jutsu he showed.



Are...Are you people really that fucking dense? How about you check the next three pages where HE FUCKING WALKS ON WATER. Here's a tip, when someone posts a scan check the surrounding pages for context. Here's another tip, KNOW THE MANGA.

And no, Madara has other MS abilities but guess what? Every MS comes with an ability. However you can't say Madara has Amaterasu, or koto, because he never showed us.



> i guess tsunade cant either cuz she hasnt walked on water. oh wait Muu defo cant cuz he hasnt shown it. nor has onoki. All these high level ninja cant do something even karin can do wow!!



LOL. Walking on water is simple chakra control. Any ninja with good chakra control can do it. Genjutsu is a whole different thing. We've seen Itachi try and put Naruto out, he couldn't do it before Chiyo and Sakura broke the genjutsu. Kakashi istantly put two out instantly. Here they both have feats of trying to knock someone out and Kakashi's instantly knock out of two people>>>>Itachi's attempt at knocking Naruto out.



> madara has never knocked out anyone with genjutsu, i.e put them to sleep.



Genjutsu feats still better than Itachi's. Itachi paralyzed Orochimaru and still had to prevent him from breaking it. Madara's paralyzed Ei and Ei couldn't do anything.



> guess he cant despite beign >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than kakashi in genjutsu



Despite people thinking he's>>>>>>Kakashi.



> and yes ichi kakashi can control people. he already controlled zabuza, considering your a fan you should know that. guess you didnt



He put a suggestion in Zabuza's mind, he didn't control him. 



> madara didnt knock out anyone. Ei wasnt put to sleep



Did I ever say that?


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## IchLiebe (Dec 3, 2014)

I literally just thought about this, every body with sharingan (ones with actual battle feats) have better genjutsu feats than Itachi.

Kakashi knocked out two people instantly. Itachi couldn't knock out beginning of part 2 Naruto out after several seconds had passed. Tsukiyomi didn't even knock Kakashi out instantly, they had a whole fucking conversation afterwords despite Kakashi being tortured for 72 hours. 

Madara paralyzed Ei and Ei couldn't do anything and Oonoki had to break it. Itachi paralyzed Orochimaru and still had to cut off his hand to stop him from breaking the genjutsu (and Orochi still broke it as he lived).

Sasuke paralyzed Shi and took him out of the fight.

Shisui LOL.

Obito controlled a perfect jin...Itachi controlled a civilian who had 0% chakra control (only ninja's have control control).

Hate to say it, but Itachi has SHIT genjutsu feats besides small perception changes and I say Sasuke has him beat there (Deidara, and Danzo fights). GUESS WHAT? HYPE=FUCKING HYPE. Guess what hype means, Jiraiya stomps Itachi, Kisame, and back up. It means amaterasu is as hot as the sun, and that means Karin can walk on the fucking sun because we all know what went down there. It means Hiruzen punks Hashirama, and we all know what happened when Hashi flexed, Hiruzen has a mini panic attack. Don't come at me with you're dumb ass EMPTY STATEMENTS. Actions>words Feats>hype And every single fucking character>>>>>>>>>Itachi.


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## Bloo (Dec 4, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I literally just thought about this, every body with sharingan (ones with actual battle feats) have better genjutsu feats than Itachi.
> 
> Kakashi knocked out two people instantly. Itachi couldn't knock out beginning of part 2 Naruto out after several seconds had passed. Tsukiyomi didn't even knock Kakashi out instantly, they had a whole fucking conversation afterwords despite Kakashi being tortured for 72 hours.
> 
> ...


You must live a sad life if you go home and try to think of way to discredit Itachi's character and strength to this extent. I'll give you an A for effort and leave it at that. Any sensible poster knows this post reeks of biased, horse shit logic.


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## Skywalker (Dec 4, 2014)

The fact this thread has gone on past one page is concerning.

Obviously Itachi can replicate the feat easily.


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## JuicyG (Dec 4, 2014)

You got to give Ichliebe credit. He's got his points even when most don't agree, and you its hard to beat them when their backed up by canon feats. In a situation like this a debater must realize the limitations of feats and the importance of hype & portrayal and find a way to balance it out.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

Bloo said:


> You must live a sad life if you go home and try to think of way to discredit Itachi's character and strength to this extent. I'll give you an A for effort and leave it at that. Any sensible poster knows this post reeks of biased, horse shit logic.



Pretty happy actually. And most the shit comes to when reading posts and it reminds me of shit. 

How was any of it biased? I used manga feats. You just can't counter anything I said so you say bullshit. 



JuicyG said:


> You got to give Ichliebe credit. He's got his points even when most don't agree, and you its hard to beat them when their backed up by canon feats. In a situation like this a debater must realize the limitations of feats and the importance of hype & portrayal and find a way to balance it out.



That's horseshit. Itachi has tried to knock someone out and failed. If he didn't have that feat then I would wholeheartedly agree that he could knock someone out the way Kakashi did. BUT HE HAS A FEAT THAT DON'T HOLD UP! You got to throw the hype out of the window because we've seen the extent of that hype. The same way we know amaterasu isn't as hot as the sun despite hype. How can you say he can do something when we seen him try and he couldn't?

And where is this hype on Itachi genjutsu? Can I get some manga scans? All I remember that was hyped was Tsukiyomi and the Ao thing. Not much else.

And thank you for the "credit". I always use manga canon and if someone proves me wrong then I'll admit it. People hardly ever try to disprove me though once I put it on them and just resort to saying I'm bias. And as you can see above, if you have to resort to saying I'm bias to discredit my points then you can't do it with manga.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 5, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> You got to give Ichliebe credit. He's got his points even when most don't agree, and you its hard to beat them when their backed up by canon feats. In a situation like this a debater must realize the limitations of feats and the importance of hype & portrayal and find a way to balance it out.



I already beat the dog shyt out of his illogical point 
2 folders mean jack shyt we don't care about fodders, sasuke beat 1000 fodders without killing them, do we care? Fuk no 





Kakashi was still trying his very best to avoid eye contact with non ms shouten itachi, if he was as good as liebe claims he was in genjutsu, he wouldn't have to do that.
Itachi comfortably replicates the feat and probably does it way better at that. :ignoramus


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I already beat the dog shyt out of his illogical point
> 2 folders mean jack shyt we don't care about fodders, sasuke beat 1000 fodders without killing them, do we care? Fuk no



LOL, genjutsu doesn't care about fodder or not. It's the same from person to person. Trollkages genjutsu did the same thing to Oonoki and Gaara as it did to the fodders. Madara's paralyzing genjutsu did the same thing to a fodder that it did to Ei. People can put up a better fight, but against Kakashi's genjutsu they instantly went out, they didn't have time to break it or fight it.



> Kakashi was still trying his very best to avoid eye contact with non ms shouten itachi, if he was as good as liebe claims he was in genjutsu, he wouldn't have to do that.
> Itachi comfortably replicates the feat and probably does it way better at that. :ignoramus



Because of Tsukiyomi. Itachi never told Kakashi he couldn't use MS so don't act like Kakashi had that knowledge. 
Itachi already tried knocking someone out, he failed.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> LOL, genjutsu doesn't care about fodder or not. It's the same from person to person. Trollkages genjutsu did the same thing to Oonoki and Gaara as it did to the fodders. Madara's paralyzing genjutsu did the same thing to a fodder that it did to Ei. People can put up a better fight, but against Kakashi's genjutsu they instantly went out, they didn't have time to break it or fight it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it most certainly does, you have to have a certain skill level to be able to resist genjutsu.
except trollkage's genjutsu works quite different.
madara genjutsu is on a different level, he can knock out E or a fodder same with sasuke.




If genjutsu results the same across the board everybody would of been caught by kabuto's genjutsu at the chunin exam but that clearly wasn't the case.



*TBB doesn't require the rotation of a rasengan in order to form while a bijuudama rasengan does because the user makes it while in human form.*
then theres also the fact that aside from the 2 fodder, you have no other feats of kakashi's excellent genjutsu mastery, why is that? why hasn't kakashi beaten any notable opponent with genjutsu if he is so skilled at it?


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## Vice (Dec 5, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> then theres also the fact that aside from the 2 fodder, you have no other feats of kakashi's excellent genjutsu mastery, why is that? why hasn't kakashi beaten any notable opponent with genjutsu if he is so skilled at it?



Beat Obito's genjutsu and Obito's capable of putting perfect jinchuurikis under.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> it most certainly does, you have to have a certain skill level to be able to resist genjutsu.
> except trollkage's genjutsu works quite different.
> madara genjutsu is on a different level, he can knock out E or a fodder same with sasuke.



Resist means you have time. They didn't. They went out instantly. There was no time to fight it. And if it effected them that quickly then everyone else gets affected that quick. Who is that battle ready even in a battle that when they are in genjutsu they instantly go to break it. Even Kakashi and Gai who was already on alert took time to break Kabuto's genjutsu. Kakashi's genjutsu was too quick. It was basically Tsukiyomi except without 72 hours lasting an instant.




> If genjutsu results the same across the board everybody would of been caught by kabuto's genjutsu at the chunin exam but that clearly wasn't the case.



It did except people who broke it. There's a reason Naruto went out like the fodder. Guess who broke it, Kakashi, Gai, some leaf nin, and ANBU ninja.



> * max V3*
> then theres also the fact that aside from the 2 fodder, you have no other feats of kakashi's excellent genjutsu mastery, why is that? why hasn't kakashi beaten any notable opponent with genjutsu if he is so skilled at it?



You post him telling Naruto that he can't use MS and somehow translate that into Kakashi knowing. I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are.

It's the manga. Kakashi went toe to toe with Obito (who controlled perfect bijuu) in genjutsu. He's actually knocked people out while Itachi the "genjutsu master" tried and failed.


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2014)

Itachi is better than kakashi at genjutsu.  This wasn't some special kakashi-only sharingan genjutsu, it was simple knockout, if kakashi can do it, so can itachi unless shown otherwise.


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## Bloo (Dec 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Pretty happy actually. And most the shit comes to when reading posts and it reminds me of shit.
> 
> How was any of it biased? I used manga feats. You just can't counter anything I said so you say bullshit.


It was just a biased reach to degrade Itachi's strength, because Itachi has almost infinitely more impressive genjutsu feats than Kakashi. But, you do you. Hate on Itachi. I don't care to further this discussion (or future ones) with you. I'm not a fan for Kakashi, but I can give him credit where he deserves it. If you can't do the same for Itachi then there is no point to try to have a discussion with you.

However, I will say I find it hilarious that you very blatantly point out your hatred of Itachi (*points to your location on your profile*) and I see you pop up and debate for days in every Itachi thread, even more than I or other Itachi fans.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

Bloo said:


> It was just a biased reach to degrade Itachi's strength, because Itachi has almost infinitely more impressive genjutsu feats than Kakashi. But, you do you. Hate on Itachi. I don't care to further this discussion (or future ones) with you. I'm not a fan for Kakashi, but I can give him credit where he deserves it. If you can't do the same for Itachi then there is no point to try to have a discussion with you.
> 
> However, I will say I find it hilarious that you very blatantly point out your hatred of Itachi (*points to your location on your profile*) and I see you pop up and debate for days in every Itachi thread, even more than I or other Itachi fans.



Show me those feats then. Please. The fact of the matter is Itachi has tried to knock someone out and he FAILED. Kakashi instantly knocked two people out. "but they were fodder" Don't cut it. Rasengan does the same damage to 3rd raikage as it does to fodder, raikage just has better durability. And durability in genjutsu don't matter.


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## Bloo (Dec 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Show me those feats then. Please. The fact of the matter is Itachi has tried to knock someone out and he FAILED. Kakashi instantly knocked two people out. "but they were fodder" Don't cut it. Rasengan does the same damage to 3rd raikage as it does to fodder, raikage just has better durability. And durability in genjutsu don't matter.


I could list out the many examples but it won't matter with you. I'm through with this discussion.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

See, I know every fucking example. I don't think YOU do. You're little,"that's like saying Madara can't walk on water" and just like how I proved you wrong there, you're wrong again.

Here's the fucking feats for you.
1. Tsukiyomi on baby Sasuke. Sasuke who was fucking 8 got up and chased him STILL.
2. Genjutsu on Kurenai. She fucking broke it.
3. Tsukiyomi on Kakashi, they had a conversation afterwords.
4. Controlling a civilian. NOT SHIT.
5. Paralyzing Orochimaru, still had to cut off his hand from breaking it. And Orochimaru still got away.
6. Tsukiyomi on 13 yo Sasuke. Sasuke was already done as he had the shit beat out of him.
7. Making Deidara think he had his exploding centipede on Itachi when he had on him self. A simple illusion jutsu.
8. The shit in the Sasuke fight that Sasuke saw through and broke.
9. The genjutsu on Bee. Bee broke it.

His feats aren't shit compared to other genjutsu users. His hype in genjutsu is almost non existent outside of tsukiyomi. This is where we discuss matches. And in a base genjutsu match Kakashi fucking shit on Itachi in feats.


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## JuicyG (Dec 5, 2014)

I do have to agree with Ichliebe to a certain extent. For being a supposed "Genjutsu master", Kishi didn't write very many feats to uphold his seemingly like God-like genjutsu master portrayal. Koto was of course given to him, so that's not really that impressive, Izanami & Izanagi was explored by even Danzo. But going strictly on hype & portrayal Itachi is the better genjutsu user. Going by strictly feats, theres not much difference. Itachi has casted genjutsu on higher level opponents, yes, but each one of them were able to break it, like Orochimaru was about to break out of Itachi's genjutsu, thats the whole reason why he cut his hands off. Why not just knock him out altogether with his God-like genjutsu mastery ? Not saying Kakashi could do it either, but it certainly makes us wonder.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Itachi is better than kakashi at genjutsu.  This wasn't some special kakashi-only sharingan genjutsu, it was simple knockout, if kakashi can do it, so can itachi unless shown otherwise.



It's been shown. Itachi has a feat of trying to knock someone out (beginning of part 2 naruto), he couldn't do it before Chiyo and Sakura broke him out. The ANBU root ninja instantly went out. They didn't struggle like Naruto, they didn't have time for someone or themselves to break. They went out in one panel.

I'm going to make this as simple as can be.

Hype- Tobirama can walk on water.
Reasoning- He's a kage, almost every ninja can do it.
Feats- NONE.
Discussion- Everyone assumes he can. It's a smart thing to think. No one is going to disagree. 

HOWEVER when it looks like this-

Hype- Tobirama can walk on water.
Reasoning- He's a kage, almost every ninja can do it.
Feats- He tried to, and couldn't do it.
Discussion- He can't walk on water because he hasn't shown it. He failed when he tried so he can't do it. Hype says so, but we've seen so. 

In that situation everyone would agree that Tobirama can't walk on water because he tried and couldn't do it.

Hype- Itachi can knock someone out with genjutsu
Reasoning- He's a genjutsu master.
Feats- He tried to and couldn't knock them out before outside interference broke Naruto out of the genjutsu.
Discussion- Itachi can knock someone out (I'll agree he CAN), but he cannot knock out two people at once in an instant like Kakashi did. Kakashi tried it and succeeded whereas Itachi tried on one person and not only could he not knock him out instantly, he failed to altogether. 

Kakashi has hype of cutting lightning in half,  and NOT ONE OF YOU WOULD GIVE HIM THAT FEAT! Yet Itachi gets his feat off hype despite us clearly seeing the opposite. It's fucking ridiculous.


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## JuicyG (Dec 5, 2014)

Kakashi was still talking after the infamous Tsukuyomi though....what about Itachi's Tsukuyomi on Sasuke didn't really do much considering the hype around that genjutsu ? Diedara is probably his best feat, because Orochimaru was able to break it, he didn't act fast enough though. Diedara on the other hand may have been just weak against genjutsu. Just because your a low-kage-mid kage level shouldn't mean that your genjutsu defense is superb.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Itachi was able to use genjutsu into tricking Deidara to the point where he was going to blow himself up. Itachi was able to use a genjutsu to stall Orochi long enough to cut off his hand when he tried to Kai out. With the thought of genjutsu he made part one Kakashi tell two other Jounin to close their eyes then was pretty much done before he was unconscious until Tsunade healed him(and Sasuke) which means Kakashi was unconscious for over a week. Those are just some examples of him using genjutsu(which he has more) so I'm not seeing how Kishi didn't write many feats to uphold the genjutsu master portrayal thing.



He used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi. I'm not disputing Tsukiyomi. I agree it can knock someone out. Killing them is a stretch as we've never seen genjutsu do that. Everything else is true. 



> Deidara didn't break out of it. Naruto couldn't break out the multiple times he was put under and needed someone to save him one of the times. Kakashi didn't break out of it. So no everyone of them were not able to actually break it.



Deidara never tried to break it. He didn't know he was in it til Itachi told him and he admitted (or knew he lost) and it was over. And guess what that means Naruto is weak against genjutsu. Kakashi was in tsukiyomi, he couldn't break it I agree.

I'm talking base sharingan genjutsu here.


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## Bonly (Dec 5, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Kakashi was still talking after the infamous Tsukuyomi though....



So but was he not pretty much done as I said? Did he not shortly after fall down then sink into the water? Was he not knock out unconscious for over a week? Yet him being able to talk for a little bit is suppose to take away from Itachi's genjutsu master portrayal some how?



> what about Itachi's Tsukuyomi on Sasuke didn't really do much considering the hype around that genjutsu ?



What about it? He used it to knocked out Sasuke twice then when Sasuke was older Sasuke who had what it took to break it and was much stronger then when he was a kid was able to do such. Should I also doubt MT because it didn't do much to Sasuke considering the hype that genjutsu had as well?



> Diedara is probably his best feat,



I don't know who Diedara is so maybe that feat is the best 



> because Orochimaru was able to break it, he didn't act fast enough though.



Indeed he was but the genjutsu was good enough to allow Itachi to cut off a hand like child play.



> Diedara on the other hand may have been just weak against genjutsu. Just because your a low-kage-mid kage level shouldn't mean that your genjutsu defense is superb.



Diedara might be weak but nothing suggest that Deidara was all that weak to genjutsu.


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## Bonly (Dec 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> He used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi. I'm not disputing Tsukiyomi. I agree it can knock someone out. Killing them is a stretch as we've never seen genjutsu do that. Everything else is true.



I never tried to imply he didn't use Tsukiyomi on Kakashi but at least we agree.



> Deidara never tried to break it. He didn't know he was in it til Itachi told him and he admitted (or knew he lost) and it was over. And guess what that means Naruto is weak against genjutsu. Kakashi was in tsukiyomi, he couldn't break it I agree.



Sure but then that means he's wrong in saying everyone can break out of Itachi's genjutsu.



> I'm talking base sharingan genjutsu here.



I replied to JuicyG when he said "For being a supposed "Genjutsu master", Kishi didn't write very many feats to uphold his seemingly like God-like genjutsu master portrayal." and the portrayal of Itachi comes from more then just base Sharingan genjutsu so while you may only be talking about base Sharingan genjutsu, I'm talking about all forms of genjutsu when it comes to Itachi's genjutsu portrayal


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Sure but then that means he's wrong in saying everyone can break out of Itachi's genjutsu.



I wouldn't say everyone. But don't hold beginning of part 2 Naruto up to the standards of Gai, Asuma, etc.



> I replied to JuicyG when he said "For being a supposed "Genjutsu master", Kishi didn't write very many feats to uphold his seemingly like God-like genjutsu master portrayal." and the portrayal of Itachi comes from more then just base Sharingan genjutsu so while you may only be talking about base Sharingan genjutsu, I'm talking about all forms of genjutsu when it comes to Itachi's genjutsu portrayal



His base genjutsu portrayal isn't that great for how people treat him. Saying he can knock out two people at once instantly like Kakashi did because he has better hype is nonsense when Itachi couldn't knock Naruto out before someone broke the genjutsu. Everyone in this thread used portrayal and hype but not one of them has a feat to back up Itachi doing it. There is a feat saying the exact opposite and it's ridiculous to ignore it at the extent people are.


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## Bloo (Dec 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> 1. Tsukiyomi on baby Sasuke. Sasuke who was fucking 8 got up and chased him STILL.


Yes, because Itachi being able to hold back in a genjutsu means he sucks at genjutsu. If you believe he went bloodlusted into that use of Tsukuyomi, then I can't help you.


> 2. Genjutsu on Kurenai. She fucking broke it.


Actually he just reflected her own genjutsu on herself (he's the only one to do this in the manga). I'm proud that she could break her on genjutsu.


> 3. Tsukiyomi on Kakashi, they had a conversation afterwords.


And the latter stated that Itachi very easily could have killed him with it and was confused as to why he held back. Right before he passes out for over a week.


> 4. Controlling a civilian. NOT SHIT.


Yet you say the "fodder" argument is irrelevent.


> 5. Paralyzing Orochimaru, still had to cut off his hand from breaking it. And Orochimaru still got away.


Itachi most likely let Orochimaru go away. And Orochimaru has a 5 in genjutsu and Itachi still very easily had the ability to kill him at that moment. Kakashi's feats are limited to a genin Sakura and two fodder. This feat alone trumps both of those.


> 6. Tsukiyomi on 13 yo Sasuke. Sasuke was already done as he had the shit beat out of him.


What does this prove? He knocked out Sasuke for over a week immediately after the genjutsu ended. What does that do to disprove his proficiency in genjutsu?


> 7. Making Deidara think he had his exploding centipede on Itachi when he had on him self. A simple illusion jutsu.


A simple illusion genjutsu that was used to the proficiency that it would have killed Deidara if Itachi had not stopped it.


> 8. The shit in the Sasuke fight that Sasuke saw through and broke.


The same fight Itachi planned on losing and held back throughout.


> 9. The genjutsu on Bee. Bee broke it.


Bee is a perfect Jin. And Itachi caught him in one for a while. Still impressive feat.

You left out him casting a genjutsu on a sage that doesn't have eyesight and many other feats.



> His feats aren't shit compared to other genjutsu users. His hype in genjutsu is almost non existent outside of tsukiyomi. This is where we discuss matches. And in a base genjutsu match Kakashi fucking shit on Itachi in feats.


Okay. It's fine if you believe that, I and many others strongly disagree. But it's fine if you believe that. Let's agree to disagree because neither of us are changing the other's opinion today (or any day in the future).


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## Bonly (Dec 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> His base genjutsu portrayal isn't that great for how people treat him.



Wait. So which is it? First you said "I'm talking *base sharingan* genjutsu here." and now you say "His *base genjutsu* portrayal"?



> Saying he can knock out two people at once instantly like Kakashi did because he has better hype is nonsense when Itachi couldn't knock Naruto out before someone broke the genjutsu.Everyone in this thread used portrayal and hype but not one of them has a feat to back up Itachi doing it. There is a feat saying the exact opposite and it's ridiculous to ignore it at the extent people are



That was a finger genjutsu which isn't a Sharingan genjutsu. So if you are talking about the portrayal of base Sharingan genjutsu then this doesn't matter. 

If your talking about base genjutsu in general as in without the MS then I wouldn't say it's nonsense but more so a 'it's obvious it could be done" type of thing that people would say Itachi could do such. Look at the state Naruto was in right before he was freed from the genjutsu. Had Chiyo and Sakura not freed him then Naruto would've been knocked out soon, so it's basically the same case as Orochi in a way. 

Technically Orochi failed to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. But as we saw it wasn't a case of Orochi being unable to break the genjutsu due to lack of ability, it was a case of Itachi being faster on the strike. Take Itachi attacking out of the picture and Orochi would've broke it which I'm sure pretty much everyone would agree. Welp the Itachi knocking out Naruto is the same deal. Take away outside help and Naruto would've been knocked out just like Orochi would've broken out of Itachi's genjutsu if Itachi didn't attack. 

So while he didn't knock out Naruto fast enough, he would've knocked out Naruto eventually and that is why people would say Itachi can knock people out. Bringing up hype and portrayal about his genjutsu mastery is basically a bonus


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Yes, because Itachi being able to hold back in a genjutsu means he sucks at genjutsu. If you believe he went bloodlusted into that use of Tsukuyomi, then I can't help you.



Itachi made Sasuke watch his clan get murdered for 72 (or 24?) hours at 8 years old. He should've been out.



> Actually he just reflected her own genjutsu on herself (he's the only one to do this in the manga). I'm proud that she could break her on genjutsu.



It was actually a sharingan genjutsu, it got a page in the 



> And the latter stated that Itachi very easily could have killed him with it and was confused as to why he held back. Right before he passes out for over a week.





> Yet you say the "fodder" argument is irrelevent.



Seeing as a civilian can't break genjutsu and has no control control then yeah. It was a controlling genjutsu, plenty of time to break it. Kakashi's genjutsu doesn't have time to break it.



> Itachi most likely let Orochimaru go away. And Orochimaru has a 5 in genjutsu and Itachi still very easily had the ability to kill him at that moment. Kakashi's feats are limited to a genin Sakura and two fodder. This feat alone trumps both of those.



Just let a person who wanted to destroy the leaf get away...yeah sure.



> What does this prove? He knocked out Sasuke for over a week immediately after the genjutsu ended. What does that do to disprove his proficiency in genjutsu?



Tsukiyomi is different from base genjutsu, I'm not arguing tsukiyomi.



> A simple illusion genjutsu that was used to the proficiency that it would have killed Deidara if Itachi had not stopped it.



Yep, but that doesn't prove Itachi can knock someone out purely with genjutsu the way Kakashi did.



> The same fight Itachi planned on losing and held back throughout.



Prove Tsukiyomi was less powerful. If Itachi let him out Sasuke would know.



> Bee is a perfect Jin. And Itachi caught him in one for a while. Still impressive feat.
> 
> You left out him casting a genjutsu on a sage that doesn't have eyesight and many other feats.



Not really. Itachi's shuriken couldn't cross 5 yards before Bee broke it.

Izanami is not something to bring up. Itachi even admitted it was basically useless in a fight. The sheer amount you have to do to activate it is ridiculous. Itachi can't catch but few people in it. And he loses an eye if he does it. 

And what one's did I leave out. The one where he got Naruto in the Sasuke vs ITachi arc, where Naruto didn't even attempt to break it and talked to him. Nothing happened there worth note. Or the one where Shouten Itachi put a bunshin Kakashi under genjutsu in which Kakashi didn't break it because that was what he wanted and used that moment to trap Itachi and beat him.



> Okay. It's fine if you believe that, I and many others strongly disagree. But it's fine if you believe that. Let's agree to disagree because neither of us are changing the other's opinion today (or any day in the future).



You can change my mind. Just use a good arguement not,"Saying Itachi can't knock out two people instantly is like saying Madara can't walk on water" where a feat turns out that you're wrong. You haven't addressed anything. You say a little thing here and there and then call me bias. If this is such a fact that he could do it then prove these points wrong.

1. Genjutsu changes from person to person. Such as show me why that genjutsu wouldn't do the same to Oonoki. Show me that being fodder means instant knock out, while kage level means you get more time. "just because" don't cut it. Come with a solid reason why Oonoki would get more time to break it than the ANBU root ninjas did.

2. Show me Itachi knocking someone out instantly. As the Naruto feat showed. He can't do it IMO. Chiyo and Sakura had plenty of time to break it and they did.

Those two points you can't counter with calling me bias because you don't agree. I need evidence, I need feats, Hype is out the window because Itachi has a feat.


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## Bloo (Dec 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> It was actually a sharingan genjutsu, it got a page in the





			
				Databook said:
			
		

> One decrypts a genjutsu that has been applied onto them, and *casts back a jutsu with identical effects onto the opponent!!* It's a form of illusion reversal, but in order to instantly read through a jutsu and cast it in return, the Sharingan's power is necessary.


Kurenai was hit with a carbon copy of her own genjutsu. Thank you for proving that point right.

I'm not responding to the rest of your archaic interpretations of the manga. This discussion is over. I have more important things to do.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Wait. So which is it? First you said "I'm talking *base sharingan* genjutsu here." and now you say "His *base genjutsu* portrayal"?
> p



Same thing. I'm talking about non MS genjutsu.



> That was a finger genjutsu which isn't a Sharingan genjutsu. So if you are talking about the portrayal of base Sharingan genjutsu then this doesn't matter.



It matters overall because Itachi, outside MS, has tried to knock someone out and couldn't do it before Chiyo and Sakura broke it.



> If your talking about base genjutsu in general as in without the MS then I wouldn't say it's nonsense but more so a 'it's obvious it could be done" type of thing that people would say Itachi could do such. Look at the state Naruto was in right before he was freed from the genjutsu. Had Chiyo and Sakura not freed him then Naruto would've been knocked out soon, so it's basically the same case as Orochi in a way.



Again, I'm not arguing he couldn't knock Naruto out. I'm arguing he can't do it the way Kakashi did.

Two panels of Kakashi's sharingan, Two people, and the next panel is black with a sfx, the next panel their on the ground. He knocked them out instantly while Itachi took time to do the same against Naruto and ultimately couldn't because people had time to break it and did.



> Technically Orochi failed to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. But as we saw it wasn't a case of Orochi being unable to break the genjutsu due to lack of ability, it was a case of Itachi being faster on the strike. Take Itachi attacking out of the picture and Orochi would've broke it which I'm sure pretty much everyone would agree. Welp the Itachi knocking out Naruto is the same deal. Take away outside help and Naruto would've been knocked out just like Orochi would've broken out of Itachi's genjutsu if Itachi didn't attack.



I agree.



> So while he didn't knock out Naruto fast enough, he would've knocked out Naruto eventually and that is why people would say Itachi can knock people out. Bringing up hype and portrayal about his genjutsu mastery is basically a bonus



Saying he can the way Kakashi did is ridiculous. Kakashi's base genjutsu>>>Itachi's base genjutsu.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Kurenai was hit with a carbon copy of her own genjutsu. Thank you for proving that point right.
> 
> I'm not responding to the rest of your archaic interpretations of the manga. This discussion is over. I have more important things to do.



A sharingan genjutsu overall though. It simply does whatever the other genjutsu did except stronger. That's what the databook says.


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## Bonly (Dec 5, 2014)

> It matters overall because Itachi, outside MS, has tried to knock someone out and couldn't do it before Chiyo and Sakura broke it.



If you was talking about purely Sharingan based genjutsu then no it wouldn't have mattered since you were using a non Sharingan feat.



> Again, I'm not arguing he couldn't knock Naruto out. I'm arguing he can't do it the way Kakashi did.
> 
> Two panels of Kakashi's sharingan, Two people, and the next panel is black with a sfx, the next panel their on the ground. He knocked them out instantly while Itachi took time to do the same against Naruto and ultimately couldn't because people had time to break it and did.



Who the fuck cares dude lol? If Itachi can knock out someone with genjutsu and Kakashi can knock out someone with genjutsu then what the fuck does it matter if he's not doing it at the speed? The OP said "Can Itachi knock out two ANBU fodders that Kakashi was able to with 3 Tomoe Genjutsu" and so far others in the thread are saying Itachi can knock out the two Anbu so what's the problem? 



> Kakashi's base genjutsu>>>Itachi's base genjutsu.



I know you like to hate on Itachi and all but lets stop the BS with me please. Kakashi knocking out two fodder with his Sharingan genjutsu while Shōten Itachi didn't knock out Naruto faster enough with a finger genjutsu doesn't warrant Kakashi to be ">>>" over Itachi in the genjutsu department.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 6, 2014)

Bonly said:


> If you was talking about purely Sharingan based genjutsu then no it wouldn't have mattered since you were using a non Sharingan feat.



Sharingan genjutsu is normal genjutsu. It hasn't shown to be more effective than base genjutsu, sound genjutsu or anything. MS genjutsu like Tsukiyomi and Koto are the only things hyped more than that.



> Who the fuck cares dude lol? If Itachi can knock out someone with genjutsu and Kakashi can knock out someone with genjutsu then what the fuck does it matter if he's not doing it at the speed? The OP said "Can Itachi knock out two ANBU fodders that Kakashi was able to with 3 Tomoe Genjutsu" and so far others in the thread are saying Itachi can knock out the two Anbu so what's the problem?



Because of how fast Kakashi did it. No one would have time to break that genjutsu. It happened instantly. No one has ever broke a genjutsu that fast, by the time they even realize it's a genjutsu it's over. Do you not realize how good of a genjutsu feat that is.



> I know you like to hate on Itachi and all but lets stop the BS with me please. Kakashi knocking out two fodder with his Sharingan genjutsu while Shōten Itachi didn't knock out Naruto faster enough with a finger genjutsu doesn't warrant Kakashi to be ">>>" over Itachi in the genjutsu department.



How not? If you can knock out two people with genjutsu in an instant you are better than someone who takes 20 seconds to knock them out.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Resist means you have time. They didn't. They went out instantly. There was no time to fight it. And if it effected them that quickly then everyone else gets affected that quick. Who is that battle ready even in a battle that when they are in genjutsu they instantly go to break it. Even Kakashi and Gai who was already on alert took time to break Kabuto's genjutsu. Kakashi's genjutsu was too quick. It was basically Tsukiyomi except without 72 hours lasting an instant.



  


Liebi they where fodder, that's what fodders do they lose quickly in every scenerio.

I wanna see scans of kakashi beating someone notable with genjutsu.
Both sasuke and itachi have beaten notable opponents with genjutsu, kakashi has never done so.




IchLiebe said:


> It did except people who broke it. There's a reason Naruto went out like the fodder. Guess who broke it, Kakashi, Gai, some leaf nin, and ANBU ninja.




ok thank you for proving my point         naruto went out like the fodder, because he wasn't skilled enough at this point, every notable jounin broke out of the genjutsu


just because kakashi knocked out anbu fodder, like kabuto, doesn't mean he is going to knock out anyone notable with genjutsu.




IchLiebe said:


> You post him telling Naruto that he can't use MS and somehow translate that into Kakashi knowing. I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are.



 he still had a mangekyo sharingon himself, why was he so scared to look into itachi's eyes?
sasuke resisted tsukiyomi with a 3 tomoe sharingon, kakashi didn't even want to make eye contact while he had  mangekyo.



IchLiebe said:


> It's the manga. Kakashi went toe to toe with Obito (who controlled perfect bijuu) in genjutsu. He's actually knocked people out while Itachi the "genjutsu master" tried and failed.



ok who said obito was the genjutsu king of the manga? he had to weaken konan before he could even use a genjutsu on her.

Itachi has done more impressive things then both kakashi and obito when it comes to genjutsu.

Kakashi defeats fodder with genjutsu.

Itachi defeats sanin with genjutsu nuff said


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## Vice (Dec 6, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> ok who said obito was the genjutsu king of the manga? he had to weaken konan before he could even use a genjutsu on her.
> 
> Itachi has done more impressive things then both kakashi and obito when it comes to genjutsu.
> 
> ...



Except Obito kept a perfect jin under his genjutsu for years, something Itachi was not able to replicate.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 6, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Liebi they where fodder, that's what fodders do they lose quickly in every scenerio.
> 
> I wanna see scans of kakashi beating someone notable with genjutsu.
> Both sasuke and itachi have beaten notable opponents with genjutsu, kakashi has never done so.



You're pathetic trolling isn't working. Show me proof of genjutsu not being the same. By that I mean show me that the genjutsu would last longer on Oonoki than it would fodder. No genjutsu work that way. You don't magically get more time in the genjutsu because you're not fodder, the genjutsu can't tell and it doesn't discriminate. 




> ok thank you for proving my point         naruto went out like the fodder, because he wasn't skilled enough at this point, every notable jounin broke out of the genjutsu



Except they took time to notice they were in genjutsu and then broke it. No one has ever broken a genjutsu as fast as you are suggesting they do. The ANBU nin went out instantly. They were literally one paneled by Kakashi.



> just because kakashi knocked out anbu fodder, like kabuto, doesn't mean he is going to knock out anyone notable with genjutsu.



Except every single ANBU nin broke Kabuto's genjutsu. And Kabuto's genjutsu had plenty of time to break.




> he still had a mangekyo sharingon himself, why was he so scared to look into itachi's eyes?
> sasuke resisted tsukiyomi with a 3 tomoe sharingon, kakashi didn't even want to make eye contact while he had  mangekyo.



Because Itachi said you need Uchiha blood to break it, why would Kakashi risk it? Tsukiyomi isn't something to play around with and take a chance because you think you might be able to break it. To Kakashi, it was impossible to break unless you're an Uchiha.



> ok who said obito was the genjutsu king of the manga? he had to weaken konan before he could even use a genjutsu on her.
> 
> Itachi has done more impressive things then both kakashi and obito when it comes to genjutsu.
> 
> ...



He is. He held a perfect jin under genjutsu for a long period of time, days, weeks, maybe fucking months. He didn't have to weaken Konan, she just put up a fight.

No he hasn't. He had to stop Orochimaru from breaking the genjutsu and as we know Orochimaru lived there.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 6, 2014)

since we can't seem to agree i'll just make a thread and see what everyone else has to say


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## iJutsu (Dec 6, 2014)

So what's stopping genjutsu from knocking people out? It's like Sasuke stabbing Sakura in the chest, if she thought she died, then her natural response would be to keel over and pass out.

Itachi's tsukuyomi wasn't mean to make Kakashi pass out. It was meant to torture him.


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## Ashi (Dec 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Controlling someone and knocking them out is two different things (Aimed at Nikushimi). Not to mention they only said that because they couldn't think of anyone with that good of genjutsu and just threw out a name famous for genjutsu.
> 
> I'm not going to state he can or he can't. I'm just saying he hasn't. He hasn't even knocked one person out with genjutsu. Kakashi took tsukiyomi and stayed conscious for a while. All I'm saying is that by FEATS, Kakashi has better BASE genjutsu than Itachi.



Didn't he do that to one of the coastguard in part 1?


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## IchLiebe (Dec 6, 2014)

Itachi tried to knock Naruto out and couldn't do it before someone broke him out. I made the claim that Kakashi is better because he can knock out not just one, but two people instantly and there is no time to break the genjutsu. People then overreacted because they can't prove me wrong.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 6, 2014)

No, him knocking the guard out was in the anime. In the manga him and Kisame just appeared on the wall, and the next time we see them they're standing on a tree. The next time we see them, they're in the coffee shop.


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## Ashi (Dec 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> No, him knocking the guard out was in the anime. In the manga him and Kisame just appeared on the wall, and the next time we see them they're standing on a tree. The next time we see them, they're in the coffee shop.



... You read that the same time I did?


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## IchLiebe (Dec 6, 2014)

What do you mean? I've known it for a long time if that's what you're asking.


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## Ashi (Dec 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> What do you mean? I've known it for a long time if that's what you're asking.



Are you uncomfortable with gay people?


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## IchLiebe (Dec 6, 2014)

I don't like where this is going.


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## Bonly (Dec 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Sharingan genjutsu is normal genjutsu. It hasn't shown to be more effective than base genjutsu, sound genjutsu or anything. MS genjutsu like Tsukiyomi and Koto are the only things hyped more than that.



Sharingan genjutsu has the potential to make Bijuu a persons pet as well as it being able to use different methods to it such as being a binding genjutsu, or altering reality, ect. all in one while other genjutsu can do one thing(as in putting someone to sleep or binding them) so yeah I would say it has been shown to be more effective then normal genjutsu. 



> Because of how fast Kakashi did it. No one would have time to break that genjutsu. It happened instantly.



Again who the fuck cares dude lol. This thread is about can Itachi knocked them out upon which you agreed that Itachi can knock out a person with genjutsu. I don't care for your hard on for the speed of the genjutsu Kakashi used, it was irrelevant to the question of the thread and irrelevant to my original reply to JuicyG which you replied to and talked only about Base genjutsu when I had already said "the portrayal of Itachi comes from more then just base Sharingan genjutsu so while you may only be talking about base Sharingan genjutsu, *I'm talking about all forms of genjutsu when it comes to Itachi's genjutsu portrayal*" yet only base genjutsu from you. 




> No one has ever broke a genjutsu that fast, by the time they even realize it's a genjutsu it's over. Do you not realize how good of a genjutsu feat that is.



Do you have proof that someone who's not fodder without an unknown level of genjutsu resistance can't break out of it by any chance? We saw Tsukiyomi, an MS jutsu, actually be used and we saw that while it was an instant in the real world, it wasn't the same way in the genjutsu world and we saw Sasuke broke out of it thus he broke out in an instant. So what's to suggest that someone can't break out of Kakashi's genjutsu depending on what goes on in the actually genjutsu he uses when an MS jutsu that happens in an instant can be broken?



> How not? If you can knock out two people with genjutsu in an instant you are better than someone who takes 20 seconds to knock them out.



No not really. If both people where to use the same exact genjutsu then you'd have a point but using two people using different types of genjutsu doesn't warrant such a thought and when Itachi has many more ways and methods of using genjutsu which has helped him get the upper hand on actual note worthy people compared to knocking out random fodder. But actually no need to reply back as this is my last reply to you since I know this won't go anywhere with you when I just saw you type "Kakashi can instantly knock out Hashirama" sooooooooooooooooooooooo

​


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## IchLiebe (Dec 6, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Sharingan genjutsu has the potential to make Bijuu a persons pet as well as it being able to use different methods to it such as being a binding genjutsu, or altering reality, ect. all in one while other genjutsu can do one thing(as in putting someone to sleep or binding them) so yeah I would say it has been shown to be more effective then normal genjutsu.



MS is whole different ballpark than base sharingan.



> Again who the fuck cares dude lol. This thread is about can Itachi knocked them out upon which you agreed that Itachi can knock out a person with genjutsu. I don't care for your hard on for the speed of the genjutsu Kakashi used, it was irrelevant to the question of the thread and irrelevant to my original reply to JuicyG which you replied to and talked only about Base genjutsu when I had already said "the portrayal of Itachi comes from more then just base Sharingan genjutsu so while you may only be talking about base Sharingan genjutsu, *I'm talking about all forms of genjutsu when it comes to Itachi's genjutsu portrayal*" yet only base genjutsu from you.



The reason this thread was started was out of spite for me saying Itachi couldn't do what Kakashi did which was instantly knock two people out.



> Do you have proof that someone who's not fodder without an unknown level of genjutsu resistance can't break out of it by any chance? We saw Tsukiyomi, an MS jutsu, actually be used and we saw that while it was an instant in the real world, it wasn't the same way in the genjutsu world and we saw Sasuke broke out of it thus he broke out in an instant. So what's to suggest that someone can't break out of Kakashi's genjutsu depending on what goes on in the actually genjutsu he uses when an MS jutsu that happens in an instant can be broken?



Tsukiyomi is the only genjutsu that can do that. That's the reason it's so powerful, because 72 hours happens in an instant. That's also the reason it's so hard to break and the only people can break it is people who have sharingan (and I say perfect jins). When Itachi put Naruto in finger genjutsu Kakashi and Itachi had an offpanel skirmish, Chiyo and Sakura saw Naruto was in genjutsu and broke it. So the time genjutsu takes in the real world is how long it lasts in the genjutsu, except for Tsukiyomi which is hyped that only Itachi can do. How you don't know that, is beyond me.

NOW, if you want to say Kakashi has a base genjutsu as strong as Itachi's tsukiyomi then I have no problems with. Just realize that Itachi's Tsukiyomi has less than 8 people who can break it.



> No not really. If both people where to use the same exact genjutsu then you'd have a point but using two people using different types of genjutsu doesn't warrant such a thought and when Itachi has many more ways and methods of using genjutsu which has helped him get the upper hand on actual note worthy people compared to knocking out random fodder. But actually no need to reply back as this is my last reply to you since I know this won't go anywhere with you when I just saw you type "Kakashi can instantly knock out Hashirama" sooooooooooooooooooooooo



Itachi paralyzes someone, they can still break the genjutsu as Orochimaru was about to do. Kakashi knocks them out, kills them. Kakashi>Itachi.

Itachi changes their perception like he did against Deidara. They possibly notice and break it. Kakashi knocks them out, kills them. Kakashi>Itachi.

Itachi controls someone, they or someone else breaks it. Kakashi knocks them out. Kakashi>Itachi.

Prove Hashirama can break a genjutsu that fast. Killer Bee hasn't even broke one that fast. Itachi hasn't, even against Kurenai he took time to reverse it and realize it was genjutsu.


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## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

this thread is just silly 
Kakashi knocked out fodder 
Kakashi also tends to do that even did it against Sakura without his sharingan 
While it's obvious he isn't the only One who can do that I think he prefers his genjutsu that way 

When Kakashi knocks out an actual opponent then this thread would have a point 

Of all the sharigan users Kakashi has the lowest genjutsu level 

When kakashi can have someone commit suicide using just genjutsu then this thread might have a point 

Till then mods you are enabling silliness


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> this thread is just silly
> Kakashi knocked out fodder
> Kakashi also tends to do that even did it against Sakura without his sharingan
> While it's obvious he isn't the only One who can do that I think he prefers his genjutsu that way
> ...



Here's the thing, prove that the genjutsu against the ANBU want be the same against Hashirama. They were instantly knocked out and had no time to break the genjutsu. So the same would happen to Hashi. 

You do know someone can break illusion genjutsu so it'd be better for Kakashi to instantly knock them out as it's 100%.

This isn't silliness. Well, no one being able to counter my points which are backed by manga canon and still disagreeing is a bit silly but I don't think you're talking about that.


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## Itachі (Dec 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Here's the thing, prove that the genjutsu against the ANBU want be the same against Hashirama. They were instantly knocked out and had no time to break the genjutsu. So the same would happen to Hashi.



I wish Kisih expanded on how Kakashi used that Genjutsu. One could say "if it could knock anyone out why didn't Kakashi use it later" but the enemies that Kakashi went up against later were Sharingan and Rinnegan wielders and Edo Tensei.


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## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Here's the thing, prove that the genjutsu against the ANBU want be the same against Hashirama. They were instantly knocked out and had no time to break the genjutsu. So the same would happen to Hashi.
> 
> You do know someone can break illusion genjutsu so it'd be better for Kakashi to instantly knock them out as it's 100%.
> 
> This isn't silliness. Well, no one being able to counter my points which are backed by manga canon and still disagreeing is a bit silly but I don't think you're talking about that.



So your theory is Kakashi >>hashirama now ?
Wow Husain take lessons form ichi he is a boss wanker 
Kudos men!! Just for that I'll rep u

Knocking out fodder isn't the same as knocking out an actual ninja 
It's like me saying because gai can speed blitz and kill 100 fodder in base that means he can speed blitz Kakashi

Sasuke in canon defeat 1000 fodder yet was still slower than sick itachi 

Fodder are just that fodder 
Knocking them out isn't even a feat at all 

He did the same to Sakura . So what you are now implying is because he can knock out Sakura he can do the same to hashirama ?? Hashirama will look directly in his eyes and slap him to death 

Hashirama broke ET control this is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hold on >>>>>> kakashi weak sharingan genjutsu

Which has zero hype and it's best feat is knocking out fodder . Being anbu means nothing if u are a nameless ninja


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> So your theory is Kakashi >>hashirama now ?
> Wow Husain take lessons form ichi he is a boss wanker
> Kudos men!! Just for that I'll rep u



I never said Kakashi>>Hashirama. I said Kakashi's genjutsu can knock him out. Hashirama is still way stronger.



> Knocking out fodder isn't the same as knocking out an actual ninja



Prove it. PROVE IT. Not one of you can. Because genjutsu=genjutsu. It doesn't last longer because you aren't fodder. Hashirama has the same amount of time to break it before he goes out. NO ONE HAS BROKE A GENJUTSU THAT FAST. It's impossible, by the time they realize it's genjutsu, if they even realize, they're out. Basically what Sasuke did to Sakura.



> It's like me saying because gai can speed blitz and kill 100 fodder in base that means he can speed blitz Kakashi



Nope, taijutsu has all kinds of factors. Speed, reactions, skill, distance. Genjutsu is the same against everyone. Tayuya's genjutsu does the same against Shikamaru that it does against ITachi. The only thing is, can you break it? And Kakashi's genjutsu has no time to break it.



> Sasuke in canon defeat 1000 fodder yet was still slower than sick itachi



Taijutsu=/=speed.



> Fodder are just that fodder
> Knocking them out isn't even a feat at all



Genjutsu against fodder is genjutsu. And as I've said several time genjutsu doesn't change because you're stronger. Rasengan isn't weaker against Raikage than it is against fodder. It's just that Raikage has better durability. And durability doesn't matter against genjutsu. It's simple, can you break it? No one will be able to break it that fast so they are fucked.



> He did the same to Sakura . So what you are now implying is because he can knock out Sakura he can do the same to hashirama ?? Hashirama will look directly in his eyes and slap him to death



Sakura's genjutsu knockout took quite a while to happen so no.



> Hashirama broke ET control this is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hold on >>>>>> kakashi weak sharingan genjutsu



Prove Kakashi's sharingan genjutsu is weak. He knocked out two people instantly when Itachi couldn't knock out Naruto.



> Which has zero hype and it's best feat is knocking out fodder . Being anbu means nothing if u are a nameless ninja



Except Genjutsu is the same. It doesn't matter if your fodder.

Prove that genjutsu would be different against Hashirama than against the ANBU.

Tsukiyomi against part 1 Sasuke (basically fodder) and against Kakashi did the same exact thing.


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## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

If Kakashi could knock out hashirama with his genjutsu that would make him stronger cuz he can knock him out before hashirama can do anything 

I honestly did not read the rest . Sorry I honestly could not give a darn about the wank post



Ninjutsu equals ninjutsu so I guess if Amaterasu which u hate so much can kill Sakura it can kills kaguya 
Correct ?

Taijutsu is taijutsu so I guess gai can kill everyone with a kick since he can kill fodders with a kick 


FFS seriously .

Prove genjutsu is the same 

Cuz the person resistance to genjutsu comes into play I love how you forgot that . Anywayz will no longer post on this thread 

Diedara genjutsu resistance isn't the same as hidan genjutsu resistance love how all those obvious things are forgotten 

honestly if I keep looking at this thread I'll get banned I can't deal with extreme stupidity


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> If Kakashi could knock out hashirama with his genjutsu that would make him stronger cuz he can knock him out before hashirama can do anything



No. Same way Kamui doesn't make KAkashi stronger than him.



> Ninjutsu equals ninjutsu so I guess if Amaterasu which u hate so much can kill Sakura it can kills kaguya
> Correct ?



Except Kaguya can counter it. The genjutsu has to be broke or you're fucked. Kakashi's genjutsu doesn't have time to break.



> Taijutsu is taijutsu so I guess gai can kill everyone with a kick since he can kill fodders with a kick



Nope, people have different durability. Durability isn't a factor in genjutsu.



> Prove genjutsu is the same



LOL, why would it be different. Kabuto's genjutsu had the same effect on everyone.



> Cuz the person resistance to genjutsu comes into play I love how you forgot that . Anywayz will no longer post on this thread
> 
> Diedara genjutsu resistance isn't the same as hidan genjutsu resistance love how all those obvious things are forgotten
> 
> honestly if I keep looking at this thread I'll get banned I can't deal with extreme stupidity



Resistance to genjutsu? Sharingan users are the only people with genjutsu resistance because the sharingan is able to see through it. 

Deidara has a counter to genjutsu, same as Kabuto. A completely different thing.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> this thread is just silly
> Kakashi knocked out fodder
> Kakashi also tends to do that even did it against Sakura without his sharingan
> While it's obvious he isn't the only One who can do that I think he prefers his genjutsu that way
> ...



Thank you 

Since when did fodder mean anything?

If kakashi was good at genjutsu he would of used it against more notable opponents, he made direct eye contact with oro and didn't attempt it i mean it's really that simple his feats are inconsistent and the databook doesn't back him either


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## IchLiebe (Dec 7, 2014)

Madara's paralyzing genjutsu had the same effect against fodder as it did against Ei.
Tayuya's genjutsu paralyzed Shikamaru the same way it did EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi.
Gengetsu's genjutsu affect fodder the same way it affected Gaara and Oonoki.
Itachi is better at genjutsu than Sasuke but they both used the same genjutsu against Orochimaru and did the same thing.


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## Jυstin (Dec 7, 2014)

Anything Kakashi can do in Genjutsu, Itachi can make look like child's play.

If we're to believe Itachi isn't a better Genjutsu master, we're to believe that Kakashi could have butt fucked Orochimaru with his eye alone.

Pretty sure Kakashi wasn't shitting himself at the thought of _giving_ said butt fucking.

The reason behind why this thread even exists is the same reason it's on ignore.


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## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

I finally get the point of this thread 
Sorry ichi

Itachi did try to put naruto to sleep with genjutsu and failed 

Kakashi succeed with fodder who have had no actual genjutsu training unlike naruto 

Hence why Kakashi succeeded and itachi did not 

Itachi attempted it we have the whole scenario play out while Kakashi could have been off paneled or happened quicker cuz they didn't put up a fight 

Naruto did put up a fight and tried to break it but couldn't you would notice the whole thing played out in naruto mind 

And he didn't physically move. They said he just stopped moving so they knew and they rescued him 

I do not understand how the 2 are comparable one was used against someone with training the other against people without 

Sasuke later did the same thing to a fodder with MS

Knocking out weak people is something any sharingan user can pull off


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