# The NARUTO Plotholes Thread



## NO (Aug 18, 2014)

Let's have some fun here. You prove that there is a plothole in Naruto and I add it to this list. We'll keep the list going forever until we've finally hit a wall.

This definition of "plothole" is from wikipedia. I reviewed it with my friends who are scholars in language arts - they agreed with it.  We're gonna use this definition.


> A plot hole, or plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that creates a *paradox *in the story that cannot be* reconciled with any explanation*. These include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.





*Plothole List:*
1. "..." cited by [username] | post: 
2. "..." cited by [username] | post: [link]
3. "..." cited by [username] | post: [link]


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## Dr Black (Aug 18, 2014)

Kakashi mentions passing the Chunin Exam at age 6.



That friend is not 6.

Also from that chapter is Obito standing in front of Hokage Rushmore with Minato's head on it.



Even though Obito "died" during the war while Minato was a Jonin.



Either the sculptors have precognition or its a continuity error.

Also, is this thread exclusively plot holes or can ass pulls be added as well?


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## CrazyAries (Aug 18, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> It's not a rule, it's really just common sense. We need to verify translations because of the language barrier before we start calling out Kishimoto out on literary failures.
> 
> I also didn't say you had to use specific translations. Any 3 will work and they need to agree with each other



All right. Still, I would prefer a fan translation, provided the one doing it has an excellent grasp of Japanese. The manga pages are only a starting point, but we can get far more information from the raws. If I take up your challenge, I might drop by the Translations sections to check on a few pages. There is one issue in particular I would like a perspective on.



> And I did use at least 3 sources for "asspull", plothole, inconsistency – whatever you wanna call it.  My own recognition of the definition (I majored in English), wikipedia's public editors who stalk that page for bad edits and have already argued for years to come to that specific definition, 2 of my friends, and a few NF members. At this point, if you don't agree with this definition, you never really knew what a plothole was.



You walked right into that. 



Dr Black said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 





It is my understanding that Kishimoto cleaned up the page with Obito standing in from of the Hokage monument. That was a noted mistake.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2014)

Dr Black said:


> Kakashi mentions passing the Chunin Exam at age 6.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The seconds one wasn't a plot hole, just an art error

Heck he even corrects it in a later chapter


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## tari101190 (Aug 18, 2014)

Databook information is fine.


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## NW (Aug 18, 2014)

Dr Black said:


> Kakashi mentions passing the Chunin Exam at age 6.
> 
> 
> 
> That friend is not 6.


He can still be 6 at that size.



> Also from that chapter is Obito standing in front of Hokage Rushmore with Minato's head on it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Art error. Kishi fixed it in the tankoban.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2014)

CrazyAries said:


> Still, I would prefer a fan translation, provided the one doing it has an excellent grasp of Japanese. The manga pages are only a starting point, but we can get far more information from the raws. If I take up your challenge, I might drop by the Translations sections to check on a few pages. There is one issue in particular I would like a perspective on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If he said I incontinense I would've


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## Dr Black (Aug 18, 2014)

CrazyAries said:


> It is my understanding that Kishimoto cleaned up the page with Obito standing in from of the Hokage monument. That was a noted mistake.



Don't recall that, but if so whatever. I'll keep it in my post because it's one of my favorite things about Ch.599


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2014)

Fusion said:


> He can still be 6 at that size.
> 
> Art error. Kishi fixed it in the tankoban.



He's fudging huge

Plus those clothes were the ones he wore as a teen

I'm sorry but that man does not look six


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## -Ziltoid- (Aug 18, 2014)

Can't we just nominate the entire shinobi world war and be done with it?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Aug 18, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> He's fudging huge
> 
> Plus those clothes were the ones he wore as a teen
> 
> I'm sorry but that  man  *kid *does not look six





tenchar


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## Addy (Aug 18, 2014)

hinata's boobs. no other girl got the same amount of boobage from part 1 to part 2. i call plothole


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 18, 2014)

Dr Black said:


> Also from that chapter is Obito standing in front of Hokage Rushmore with Minato's head on it.



Do you even read the tankobons? Do you even know what a tankobon is? There are a ton of corrections in every tankobon. Want to check some? Just ask me. So Shonen Jump DOESN'T COUNT, only errors in tankobons count. For example, that Hogage panel got fixed in the tankobon. So stop posting Shonen Jump panels as if they count. They are completely irrelevant. The official manga is tankobon version, not Shonen Jump


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## NO (Aug 18, 2014)

tari101190 said:


> Databook information is fine.


No, it's not supplied with manga chapter publications (volumes/SJ) and it's arguably canon to begin with.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2014)

Addy said:


> hinata's boobs. no other girl got the same amount of boobage from part 1 to part 2. i call plothole



Ino

And Tenten(kinda)


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## Dr Black (Aug 18, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Do you even read the tankobons? Do you even know what a tankobon is? There are a ton of corrections in every tankobon. Want to check some? Just ask me. So Shonen Jump DOESN'T COUNT, only errors in tankobons count. For example, that Hogage panel got fixed in the tankobon. So stop posting Shonen Jump panels as if they count. They are completely irrelevant. The official manga is tankobon version, not Shonen Jump



No I don't read the tankobon. I'm not going to pay to read Naruto, the fuck? The issue has been addressed. Let it go.

Also, why should the original publication not count?


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2014)

t0xeus said:


> It was never stated that after you awaken MS and Susanoo, you still have to psychically have MS in your eyeholes to be able to use Susanoo.



Then How does blindness affect your MS 

Or maybe it's a side affect of "losing your light"


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## t0xeus (Aug 18, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Then How does blindness affect your MS
> 
> Or maybe it's a side affect of "losing your light"



Maybe I am wrong, but it was never said that it affects Susanoo as well? It was stated just about amaterasu&tsukoyumi.


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## LesExit (Aug 18, 2014)

....so no plot holes yet proved yet :0?


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## ziemiak11 (Aug 18, 2014)

Classic. Naruto failing few times on final examine in the accademy, but it's just impossible because 
1. Pictures when he first meet Sasuke, it looks like it's Naruto first time too.
2. He didn't know TenTen, RockLee, Neji, but if he had to repeat the year they should be his original classmates since they are only one year older


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## LesExit (Aug 18, 2014)

ziemiak11 said:


> Classic. Naruto failing few times on final examine in the accademy, but it's just impossible because
> 1. Pictures when he first meet Sasuke, it looks like it's Naruto first time too.
> 2. He didn't know TenTen, RockLee, Neji, but if he had to repeat the year they should be his original classmates since they are only one year older


Ya that is something I still don't get....


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## Foxve (Aug 18, 2014)

How bout asspulls? Like how way back in part one lee busted his ass to get his speed with weights. And in one month Sasuke went from being casually manhandled by lee to, not only being as fast as lee was WITHOUT his weights and in primary loutis. But unlike Lee, who's speed in that form came at the costs of pained mobility after a short period of use, Sasuke only got "tired"? He never even learned how used the primary loutis. Also his little fit of "fatigue" didn't exactly hamper him in his match aside from panting a little. One of the manga's ways of saying fuck you to hard workers. Lee seriously didn't deserve that


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## t0xeus (Aug 18, 2014)

Was Sasuke in the beginning of Part II using 3T sharingan to disrupt Kurama that was trying to give Naruto a bit of his chakra plot-hole/asspull since he never used it afterwards? It was neither mentioned. I've already made a new topic about it here in Konoha Library.


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## Jon Snow (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxve said:


> How bout asspulls? Like how way back in part one lee busted his ass to get his speed with weights. And in one month Sasuke went from being casually manhandled by lee to, not only being as fast as lee was WITHOUT his weights and in primary loutis. But unlike Lee, who's speed in that form came at the costs of pained mobility after a short period of use, Sasuke only got "tired"? He never even learned how used the primary loutis. Also his little fit of "fatigue" didn't exactly hamper him in his match aside from panting a little. One of the manga's ways of saying fuck you to hard workers. Lee seriously didn't deserve that



Lee during ura renge is faster than weightless Lee who equals sasuke. also sasuke can't perform ura renge i dont know what you're insinuating


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## Foxve (Aug 18, 2014)

Jon Snow said:


> Lee during ura renge is faster than weightless Lee who equals sasuke. also sasuke can't perform ura renge i dont know what you're insinuating



I was saying in one month of training, Sasuke got Lee's speed without weights(anime said wits so I messed up there my bad). Still, it's one of the biggest fuck yous in the manga.....


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2014)

t0xeus said:


> Maybe I am wrong, but it was never said that it affects Susanoo as well? It was stated just about amaterasu&tsukoyumi.



Itachi never specifically said Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi



Foxve said:


> How bout asspulls? Like how way back in part one lee busted his ass to get his speed with weights. And in one month Sasuke went from being casually manhandled by lee to, not only being as fast as lee was WITHOUT his weights and in primary loutis. But unlike Lee, who's speed in that form came at the costs of pained mobility after a short period of use, Sasuke only got "tired"? He never even learned how used the primary loutis. Also his little fit of "fatigue" didn't exactly hamper him in his match aside from panting a little. One of the manga's ways of saying fuck you to hard workers. Lee seriously didn't deserve that



A characters development isn't an asspull

An asspull would be achieving an absurd power through unexplained mean

(Like Sakura all of sudden having sage mode)


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## Foxve (Aug 18, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> A characters development isn't an asspull
> 
> An asspull would be achieving an absurd power through unexplained mean
> 
> (Like Sakura all of sudden having sage mode)



That's exactly what happened. Lee trained for like two or so years and used heavy weights for his speed. Sasuke achieves the same speed in *one month by only copying lee's taijutsu*? Dispite getting his ass handed to him by a weighted Lee a month ago? How is that not an asspull?


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## Raventhal (Aug 18, 2014)

Obito's real arm melts like its Zetsu goo.



Not to mention that you were supposed to die when even if you reabsorbed the Bijuu.


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## CrazyAries (Aug 18, 2014)

My basic issue is with what Obito stated in Chapter 688. Obito tells Rin that chakra connects the two worlds. Hasan provided the image and takL confirmed the dialogue.



This alone would not be a problem, provided that Edo Tensei can pull souls right out of the pure world in order to tie that sould to a host body. However, this seems to contradict what was established in previous chapters, particularly in terms of Madara's and then Kaguya's goals.

Let's start with a few pages from Chapter 647:

Link removed
Link removed

The dialogue was rewritten .

Here is takL's translation (with the important parts bolded):



takL said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Madara stated here that no man knew of or could use chakra before Kaguya ate the Shinju fruit. Furthermore, Hagoromo (and his brother, who was omitted from this account, to be fair) had to be the first two individuals born with chakra. Hagoromo would later pass on chakra to others for Ninshuu. Madara wants to take chakra from everyone and be the only one to wield it.



takL said:


> Raikiri19 said:
> 
> 
> > Please, chapter 670, this page:
> ...





Hagoromo confirms parts of Madara's story (while adding to it), namely that the Shinju wanted to reclaim its chakra.

Chapter 671:
Hagoromo would later pass on chakra to others for Ninshuu.

I believe takL's translation was meant for that page: 

Chapter 680:
Hagoromo would later pass on chakra to others for Ninshuu.
Hagoromo would later pass on chakra to others for Ninshuu.

*Edit: from 
*



> Kaguya: chakra is...
> only mine(/unique to me).





> Kaguya: Once again I'll bring Chakras together!!



In Chapters 672 and 680, there is talk by Hagoromo and Kaguya, respectively, talking of all chakra's becoming one.

It seems that all chakra originated with the Shinju, which brings up a number of issues. One is how anyone survived without chakra before if the total loss of chakra was said to kill someone. Another is how a spirit could have chakra at all. This harkens back to the earliest chapters of the manga, where it was said that chakra was formed in two parts.

Beyond that, does Kaguya wants to take spiritual energy from souls, and can she do that?


Another issue is presented by Danzo.

chakra was formed in two parts
chakra was formed in two parts

Here, he pretty much insinuates that it was Itachi's choice to spare Sasuke and that in so doing, made his biggest mistake.

However, here..

chakra was formed in two parts

It is clear that Danzo brought up the issue of sparing Sasuke in order to get Itachi's cooperation in wiping out the rest of the Uchiha.


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## Black Apple (Aug 18, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> chakra was formed in two parts
> 
> Blind eyes. No sharingan.



I don't think he was completely blind yet, just nearly there. Otherwise, how would he have known where Sasuke was?

Besides that, when Sasuke was going blind Susano'o flickered out.


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## spiritmight (Aug 18, 2014)

CrazyAries said:


> My basic issue is with what Obito stated in Chapter 688. Obito tells Rin that chakra connects the two worlds. Hasan provided the image and takL confirmed the dialogue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I've never been a fan of the whole Shinju situation, but this certainly raises some important questions.

I think the idea is that post-Hagoromo, humanity as a whole simply developed the ability to mold/fashion chakra out of the two components. As in, they became integral parts of human biology through the chakra-network.

Think of it as a mass mutation.

If not that, IDK


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## Raventhal (Aug 18, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> I've never been a fan of the whole Shinju situation, but this certainly raises some important questions.
> 
> I think the idea is that post-Hagoromo, humanity as a whole simply developed the ability to mold/fashion chakra out of the two components. As in, they became integral parts of human biology through the chakra-network.
> 
> ...



It was stated somewhere that he basically handed out the chakra to everyone like Naruto did.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxve said:


> That's exactly what happened. Lee trained for like two or so years and used heavy weights for his speed. Sasuke achieves the same speed in *one month by only copying lee's taijutsu*? Dispite getting his ass handed to him by a weighted Lee a month ago? How is that not an asspull?



Sasuke's just a faster learner and had more intense training than Lee did

Fast development is a trend in the series anyway


How come Naruto can learn a Jonin Level technique while he could barely pull off Academy level technique?

Your opinion isn't grounds for a writing 

"I don't think this makes sense" doesn't equal asspull




CrazyAries said:


> My basic issue is with what Obito stated in Chapter 688. Obito tells Rin that chakra connects the two worlds. Hasan provided the image and takL confirmed the dialogue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have to remember the definition of chakra itself

It's the manifestation of Physical and Spiritual Energy

Which exists in every living being

Kaguya/ Shinju were the just first ones to discover it

Hence why people unrelated to The Otsutsuki's were also able to use ninjutsu

So when Kaguya speak of chakra she doesn't mean the chakra in every living being but only when it's manifested fully(like in any jutsu user)


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## Foxve (Aug 18, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Sasuke's just a faster learner and had more intense training than Lee did
> 
> Fast development is a trend in the series anyway
> 
> ...



Your kidding right? You can't compare a jutsu to learning something you have to exercise for. And bullshit he had "harder" training then Lee did. All Sasuke did during that month to get Lee's speed was envision Lee's moves. That's all. It's stated in the manga. Lee busted his ass with training for _years_ with heavy as hell weights to get that speed. And sasuke does it in just one month? That's like going from just barely lifting 130 pounds to in one month to lifting like 600 or so.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2014)

The Akatsuki Rings.
One if the few true plot holes.

That is all


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## Milliardo (Aug 18, 2014)

an easy one would be the timeline. kishi obviously fucked up on that.

another one would be susanoo without eyes. it doesn't make sense for them to even turn on their sharingan if they don't need it for susanoo.

kakashi graduating to chunin at age of six yet he shown to be older in later chapters.


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## Nathan Copeland (Aug 18, 2014)

also don't forget Kurenai being a new Jounin who didn't know anyone but apparently grew up with asuma, kakashi, guy and the others


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## Milliardo (Aug 18, 2014)

kyuubi worring about death in part one yet biju never stay dead which is revealed in part two.


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## Foxve (Aug 18, 2014)

Kurama was never really worried about death. He just ether never expirenced it before (I mean really, who back then could even kill him) or didn't understand what was going on during Naruto's brush with death.....


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## CrazyAries (Aug 18, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> I've never been a fan of the whole Shinju situation, but this certainly raises some important questions.
> 
> I think the idea is that post-Hagoromo, humanity as a whole simply developed the ability to mold/fashion chakra out of the two components. As in, they became integral parts of human biology through the chakra-network.
> 
> ...



Oh, I think that a mass mutation could be reasonably inferred. However, the problem arises when we have Kaguya's plan to take back chakra from everyone. That would mean that anyone with chakra have diluted levels of it from the Shinju, but a mutation would mean that everyone completely builds up their own.

Kaguya's plan definitely makes the most sense if she is targeting the bijuu, Hagoromo, his sons, and anyone Hamura's chakra source. Since Naruto and Sasuke are transmigrant hosts for Ashura and Indra and now have powers granted to them by Hagoromo, it makes sense that they are targeted, as well.


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## Jagger (Aug 18, 2014)

Nathan Copeland said:


> also don't forget Kurenai being a new Jounin who didn't know anyone but apparently grew up with asuma, kakashi, guy and the others


Do you even know what is a "plothole" in the first place?

That's just called lazy character development, not plot.


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## Milliardo (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxve said:


> Kurama was never really worried about death. He just ether never expirenced it before (I mean really, who back then could even kill him) or didn't understand what was going on during Naruto's brush with death.....



yea, he was just refer to Naruto vs Kabuto in part one which happened between the sanin battle.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxve said:


> Your kidding right? You can't compare a jutsu to learning something you have to exercise for. And bullshit he had "harder" training then Lee did. All Sasuke did during that month to get Lee's speed was envision Lee's moves. That's all. It's stated in the manga. Lee busted his ass with training for _years_ with heavy as hell weights to get that speed. And sasuke does it in just one month? That's like going from just barely lifting 130 pounds to in one month to lifting like 600 or so.



He didn't copy lee's speed he copied his fighting style and attacks

He gained his speed on his own while training with Kakashi

Who's to say he didn't work just as hard

Because of the time? Even though he's an Uchiha


This still doesn't constitute as an asspull move


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## Foxve (Aug 18, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> He didn't copy lee's speed he copied his fighting style and attacks
> 
> *He gained his speed on his own while training with Kakashi*
> 
> ...



That is the issue. Lee trained for years for that speed and sasuke got it in one month. Don't recall it saying anywhere that Uchiha are have better bodys than others. Just that they are fast learners. Sasuke only envisioned lee's moves for a month while Lee worked his ass of with insane work-outs for years to get to that point. It was big FU to poor Lee.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2014)

Foxve said:


> That is the issue. Lee trained for years for that speed and sasuke got it in one month. Don't recall it saying anywhere that Uchiha are have better bodys than others. Just that they are fast learners. Sasuke only envisioned lee's moves for a month while Lee worked his ass of with insane work-outs for years to get to that point. It was big FU to poor Lee.



Nothing says you have to work as long as someone to get their skill

Just as hard

We don't know how hard Sasuke worked nor is this a writing error


You just think it's not fair to lee


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## spiritmight (Aug 18, 2014)

People calling Sasuke gaining Lee's speed in a month a plothole 


The whole point of Sasuke's character is that he just shits on everyone else, besides maybe Naruto


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## Iruel (Aug 18, 2014)

Kurama dying isnt a plothole.. dying would still be painful and shitty even if he does revive... plus we have no idea how long he is dead for before he'd revive.

Plotholes-Akatsuki Rings. I figured it was some kind of power ring that were required for Nagatos sealing jutsu of Bijuu into the GM. But it was never stated... important enough for Oro to keep his (probably as a big fuck you to them; they'd have one less artifact to help the sealing process; I believe Kisame said it took far less time when oro was their; possibly having to do with his ring.), and important enough for Zetsu being sent to retrieve them off of the dead members.

Kabuto's "old blood" 
Unless that was different in the manga/mistranslation, i didnt read the manga back then.


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## Nathan Copeland (Aug 18, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Do you even know what is a "plothole" in the first place?
> 
> That's just called lazy character development, not plot.



no it's a plot hole. ...


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## Trojan (Aug 19, 2014)

Madara.

He is basically the definition of polthole, asspulls....etc whatever the terms may be...
just to name a few

1- Using Susanoo without eyes. Like was already mentioned in the last page and how Sasuke couldn't even 
keep his susanoo when he was nearly blind, how the heck did this guy used that? Yeah, the plot shield was strong.

Both Sasuke and itachi with tiny Susanoo compared to Madara's were showing to suffer a lot of pain, then how
come madara's susanoo does not have any side effects at all? Wasn't it stated the stronger the jutsu is, the higher
the risks are? 

2- How the heck did he get ET'd in his prime when he died as an old geezer? 
3- He was not able to move without the GM, how did he then controlled the ANBU to kidnap Rin? 
4- a Tine piece of Hashirama made him able to have access to all of Hashirama's power? Really now? 
when Obito, Zetsu, Yamato, and Danzo with way more cells couldn't do a fraction of that? 

5- He gained the Rinnegan shortly before he died, and can't move without GM, yet he somehow new about
Nagato and went to his village, and gave him his Rinnegan without his parents ever noticing a thing?  

6- Even without eyes, he was able to absorb Sasuke's Amatersu? Yeah, cool story kishi!

...etc 
I already get bored.. that disgusting character is the worst thing has ever happened to the manga, yes, even
worst than obito himself, and that saying a lot.


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## Foxve (Aug 19, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Nothing says you have to work as long as someone to get their skill
> 
> Just as hard
> 
> ...



The point is that sasuke DIDN'T work as long as lee. Speed (unless it's a body flicker in this manga) is a physical characteristic. You don't learn a physical strength. Unless you were born with some kind of abnormal genetics in a fiction (being born a god, demon, kryptonion, etc), you have to work for it. You don't just remember how someone else moved, imagine yourself moving at that speed for a month and suddenly your that fast.


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## fakkiha (Aug 19, 2014)

obito coming back from the dead to give kakashi a sharingan


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## Kaix (Aug 19, 2014)

Foxve said:


> The point is that sasuke DIDN'T work as long as lee. Speed (unless it's a body flicker in this manga) is a physical characteristic. You don't learn a physical strength. Unless you were born with some kind of abnormal genetics in a fiction (being born a god, demon, kryptonion, etc), you have to work for it. You don't just remember how someone else moved, imagine yourself moving at that speed for a month and suddenly your that fast.



Everyone has a different body. Bodies are not equal, not even in the real world. Two seemingly equal people can work equally hard and equally long and one of them can have massive gains while the other does not.

Training is not the only factor. Genetics plays a large role, as does body development, which itself includes a number of environmental factors throughout one's life even before training ever begins. Caloric consumption, nutrients, the type of work outs, and not over working your body, which can be worse than not working out at all.

I have experience with this because in spite of being one of the harder working players on my football team, I got to watch a lot of my teammates jump up 50lbs every few months on their bench press, while I was lucky to get 20lbs in the same time span, and doing the same workouts, but at an arguably higher intensity.

Lee was a no talent loser. He wasn't even talented in taijutsu. He had to work for everything. Sasuke is talented in every aspect of being a ninja.

Here is a bit of a news flash: life isn't fair. People are not equal in any way shape or form. Hard work means nothing in an unfair world because there will always be someone more talented working hard enough, not necessarily as hard, and they will be better. In some cases people will be better without working at it at all. Some people can roll out of bed with no preparation and succeed physically and mentally.

If Sasuke developing physical speed comparable to Lee in one month, in a world where magic can assist in everything, is a plothole or a buttpull, then real life is also a plothole and a buttpull.


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## RockyIII (Aug 19, 2014)

The time line is completely messed up after Obito is revealed (self explanatory).

Kakashi unlimited stamina using kamui countless countless times despite having extreme and devastating consequences (death) in past arcs.

Kakashi learning to use his new eye, mastering both eye techniques, mastering susanoo, forming perfect susanoo in  3 seconds. C'mon sasuke went through the skeleton susanoo and went through so much strife to go to skinned susanoo and went through so much to get armored susanoo and got the sage powerup to get perfect susanoo. Itachi is the greatest genius in the manga and he still only got armored susanoo.

Kakashi using susanoo and not dropping dead on the spot (susanoo has been shown to be extremely taxing on an Uchiha. Kakashi doesn't have senju DNA or Uchiha blood or anything. Wtf? This was very clearly an old author bad writing trick of "I have no use for this character let's make him useful again."

Itachi having the stupidest god awful plan ever created even though he is touted as a genius ninja. This isn't a plot hole really it's just a contradiction/ bad writing.

There are more but those are off the top of my head


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## Krippy (Aug 19, 2014)

Somebody explain why Susano'o w/o eyes is an asspull. Its not a technique that relies on vision so the most not having the eyes should do is restrict the stabilized version's of Susano'o. Not to mention lolshodaicells.


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## Dr Black (Aug 19, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Somebody explain why Susano'o w/o eyes is an asspull. Its not a technique that relies on vision so the most not having the eyes should do is restrict the stabilized version's of Susano'o. Not to mention lolshodaicells.



By this logic, you don't need Sharingan for Izanami, Izanagi or Kotoamatsukami.


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## Smoke (Aug 19, 2014)

The only one that ever bugged me, was that even tho there were only 27 students in that class, they were still able to pull out 10 teams of 3.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 19, 2014)

Can somebody explain to me the following? The whole scenario of Kushina telling Minato that she will seal Kyuubi inside her so that it will die along with her. 

chakra was formed in two parts

So basically sealing back Kyuubi inside her will not save her life, she is going to die anyways. She intends to die with Kyuubi inside her. 

The general rule is that every Jinchuuriki dies if the tailed beast is extraced from them. However, the exception to the general rule is that only the Juubi Jinchuuriki will not die from the extraction. 

chakra was formed in two parts

But then we suddenly have Kurama telling Gaara to have Minato seal his other half inside Naruto so that he will be saved. 

chakra was formed in two parts

Another exception to the general rule? Naruto was dying till Obito sealed Yin Kurama inside Naruto, and he's no Juubi Jinchuuriki. Possible explanations? I considered having only half of Kurama inside him wouldn't mean death compared to full Kurama extraction that Kushina went through... But he was dying anyways.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 19, 2014)

CrazyAries said:


> how anyone survived without chakra before if the total loss of chakra was said to kill someone.


Chakra is used to connect physical and spiritual energies. The three of them become one. If you run out of that one "mixture", you run out of both physical and spiritual energy. Then of course you die. Before they had chakra they had both physical and spiritual energies, and they could NOT connect them to use jutsu.



> Another is how a spirit could have chakra at all. This harkens back to the earliest chapters of the manga, where it was said that chakra was formed in two parts.


Chakra is the THIRD part that connects those two. That's why they say "to knead chakra". It's like using milk to make a cake and mix flour and eggs



Black Apple said:


> I don't think he was completely blind yet, just nearly there. Otherwise, how would he have known where Sasuke was?


How could Shiryu fight if he was blind? I bet you don't know who Shiryu is. You really think that ninjas can't feel their enemies just because they can't see? Have you ever heard about "sensor" ninjas? Maybe he was not completely blind, but his eyes were WHITE and the sharingan was DEACTIVATED. So you don't need sharingan to use Susanoo



> Besides that, when Sasuke was going blind Susano'o flickered out.


He was ill so his Susanoo started losing chakra. Same for Itachi when he coughed blood and his Susanoo shrank. He was already blind



Dr Black said:


> By this logic, you don't need Sharingan for Izanami, Izanagi or Kotoamatsukami.


Those 3 are genjutsu. Is Susanoo a genjutsu? Susanoo is just a warrior made of chakra


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## NO (Aug 19, 2014)

Bahamut Slayer said:


> Can somebody explain to me the following? The whole scenario of Kushina telling Minato that she will seal Kyuubi inside her so that it will die along with her.
> 
> chakra was formed in two parts
> 
> ...


I think the half-Kyuubi thing is the main issue here. He had half taken out, enters a dying state, then has half given back, so it evens out. Makes sense to me. Also, we never really found out why a jinchuuriki dies if their TB gets extracted. Could it be stamina? Chakra depletion?


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## Milliardo (Aug 19, 2014)

Iruel said:


> Kurama dying isnt a plothole.. dying would still be painful and shitty even if he does revive... plus we have no idea how long he is dead for before he'd revive.


 how would it be painful? kurama has been around for hundreds of years  time is on his side bro. even if you want to say it isn't its very misleading compared to part two info.


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## Dr Black (Aug 19, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Those 3 are genjutsu. Is Susanoo a genjutsu? Susanoo is just a warrior made of chakra



Does it matter? Amaterasu might as well just burn anything you can think of. Sight be damned!

What's the point of making these jutsu Sharingan exclusive if you don't actually need a Sharingan to do it?

That's like if Naruto had the Kyuubi extracted but was able to go Kyuubi mode anyway because fuck it.

It's like for every inconsistency, there's a Kishi fan out there willing to defend it with nonsense logic.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 19, 2014)

Dr Black said:


> Does it matter?


Of course. They are completely different jutsu. To use genjutsu you need eyes. To summon a warrior made of chakra you don't need eyes. I don't see any connection between eyes and a warrior made of chakra



> What's the point of making these jutsu Sharingan exclusive if you don't actually need a Sharingan to do it?


It's Uchiha. You need Uchiha chakra. When you feel deep anger you unlock 2 jutsu in your 2 eyes PLUS Susanoo, which is not connected to your 2 eyes. Let's say it's the eye of the mind. Hence you can use it with blind eyes and without sharingan (Itachi) or with no eyeballs (Madara).


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## KibaforHokage (Aug 19, 2014)

Dr Black said:


> By this logic, you don't need Sharingan for Izanami, Izanagi or Kotoamatsukami.



Why? All those justus require the eye. Susano is unlocked once you use both your MS eye justus


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## NO (Aug 19, 2014)

Dr Black said:


> It's like for every inconsistency, there's a Kishi fan out there willing to defend it with nonsense logic.


You could just be civilized, cut it out with the labels, acknowledge (a) there are reasonable explanations here that fans have derived, and (b) that maybe Kishimoto doesn't need to walk us through every little questionable detail, but nooo, let's just adopt your destructive mindset that the author has "plotholes" instead of "mysteries that the author can still explain or fans can rationalize."


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 19, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> *Conditions*:
> 1. If it requires the use of a databook, your proof is null. Databooks are not apart of the manga and some are rumored to be authored by Kishimoto's editors. Because they create so many inconsistencies and are generally not read by fans, they can not be used.



Just saying, this is a really stupid rule.

The manga has just as many, if not more inconsistencies than the databook does, yet we still use it as a canon source of information. The databook is also a canon source of information, so tossing it aside is hypocritical.

Also, for a thread that is supposed to be based solely on the foundations of _evidence_, I found this line particularly interesting OP:

_" Databooks are not apart of the manga and some *are rumored to be* authored by Kishimoto's editors "_

You have no proof of this, or of what parts of the DB are editor-influenced and what parts aren't. Even if you did have evidence, again I say to you, the manga is equally as influenced by editors as the databook might be.

All in all, the databook really shouldn't be excluded.​​


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 19, 2014)

Kishimoto doesn't have time to write databooks. It's 18 pages every week. You want him to write databooks also? He sleeps like 3 hours a day


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## LesExit (Aug 19, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Kishimoto doesn't have time to write databooks. It's 18 pages every week. You want him to write databooks also? He sleeps like 3 hours a day


...but aren't there only like two databooks anyways?


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 19, 2014)

3 or 4 IIRC. That's the typical product which is NOT written by the mangaka. The informations which are written on the Japanese databooks can be easily handled by the editors. I'm not saying what is written on databooks is BULLSHIT, I'm just saying it's not written by Kishimoto. Just like the anime, the movies and everything else. Kishimoto writes and draws the manga 18 hours a day. You have no idea how hard is that job


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## t0xeus (Aug 19, 2014)

3 databooks exactly. Even if Kishimoto doesn't exactly write it (even though you didn't confirm that yet..), he at least reads it and approves it, otherwise there would be no point of even releasing it.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 19, 2014)

Kishimoto is an employee, he doesn't have the freedom you think he has. It's not like he has to "approve". Shueisha basically does whatever it wants, it's a HUGE company. Kishimoto "approved" movies but they are not canon and they have crappy screenplay. Databooks are just for the younger bracket of readers. Older readers don't give a darn about databooks, they provide laughable informations. Like the "pentagons" or what's the favorite food of X or Y. Who gives a fuck about that shit, only middle school kids. Besides they are full of games and stupid stuff, they are not something Kishimoto wastes time with.

By the way I don't see which plot hole may be addressed by the databook. Let's see.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 19, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Kishimoto doesn't have time to write databooks. It's 18 pages every week. You want him to write databooks also? He sleeps like 3 hours a day



Of course he has time, you do know he has shit load of editors for creating his chapters, right? It's not as if Kishi creates the whole chapter by himself...he probably just sketches it out and the rest fill it up.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 19, 2014)

Maybe it's the opposite, he makes the manga and editors make the databooks and other crap. He has assistants which make things like these (God you guys are ignorant about mangas):

- fill the white spaces with black ink
- draw the backgrounds
- draw background characters when Kishimoto has little time (you can see the difference)
- paste the halftone screens
- scrape them
- etc etc


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## αce (Aug 19, 2014)

Well not sure if it was mentioned but the biggest glaring plot hole is how Naruto failed his academy exams three times and still ended up in Sasuke's graduating class


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## CrazyAries (Aug 19, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Chakra is used to connect physical and spiritual energies. The three of them become one. If you run out of that one "mixture", you run out of both physical and spiritual energy. Then of course you die. Before they had chakra they had both physical and spiritual energies, and they could NOT connect them to use jutsu.



This has not been expressly stated in the manga or by Kishimoto himself. This is a just a conclusion that a few readers have come to due to the changing parameters introduced by Obito in Chapter 688. 

My problem is that it looks like Kishimoto has changed the rules here and late in the game. When the concept of chakra was first introduced, it was very simple and logical. Shinobi combined spiritual and physical energies in order to create chakra. That was it. More layers were added as Jiraiya came into the picture and revealed how Kurama’s chakra boosted Naruto’s already large reserves. Then even more layers were added with the developments during the Pain Arc. Naruto was able to combine Kakashi died due to chakra depletion and Tsunade fell into a coma after using nearly all of her chakra. (This concept was essentially established before, as Kage Bunshin was listed as a forbidden technique.) There was no problem there. Gaara then showed that he had retained some abilities from hosted Shukaku from the time he was born. Still, I found no issue with that. But now, we are told that chakra connects the two worlds and spiritual energy may be the essence of chakra? That should have been established much earlier and it contradicts Kaguya’s plans to take back all chakra.



Za Fuuru said:


> Chakra is the THIRD part that connects those two. That's why they say "to knead chakra". It's like using milk to make a cake and mix flour and eggs



You are kind of contradicting yourself here. How can chakra connect the two if it is the final product of the two?



Za Fuuru said:


> 3 or 4 IIRC. That's the typical product which is NOT written by the mangaka. The informations which are written on the Japanese databooks can be easily handled by the editors. I'm not saying what is written on databooks is BULLSHIT, I'm just saying it's not written by Kishimoto. Just like the anime, the movies and everything else. Kishimoto writes and draws the manga 18 hours a day. You have no idea how hard is that job



Do you know that Kishimoto has found the time to consult on and create designs for the “Road to Ninja” and “The Last” movies, as well as a novel based on Sasuke? He could make the time to consult on a databook even if he would be to busy to write it himself.



Za Fuuru said:


> Kishimoto is an employee, he doesn't have the freedom you think he has. It's not like he has to "approve". Shueisha basically does whatever it wants, it's a HUGE company. Kishimoto "approved" movies but they are not canon and they have crappy screenplay. Databooks are just for the younger bracket of readers. Older readers don't give a darn about databooks, they provide laughable informations. Like the "pentagons" or what's the favorite food of X or Y. Who gives a fuck about that shit, only middle school kids. Besides they are full of games and stupid stuff, they are not something Kishimoto wastes time with.
> 
> By the way I don't see which plot hole may be addressed by the databook. Let's see.



People read the databooks to see character profiles, jutsu descriptions, and to find tidbits of Konoha and Narutoverse history. The little quirks of the characters are cute, but unnecessary.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 19, 2014)

CrazyAries said:


> This has not been expressly stated in the manga or by Kishimoto himself.


That's what Madara said and even Hagoromo IIRC. That was NINSHUU. Go check the chapters, I already linked the panels on this forum. I'm tired of repeating the same things 26489 times. How could chakra come from humans if humans didn't have chakra and it came from a Holy Fruit?



> You are kind of contradicting yourself here. How can chakra connect the two if it is the final product of the two?


But who the fuck said it is the final product of the two? YOU said that. I said it's a THIRD part added by the Holy Tree and Otsutsuki family



> Do you know that Kishimoto has found the time to consult on and create designs for the ?Road to Ninja? and ?The Last? movies


"Design" what? What's "design"? You think he wrote the script? LOL



> People read the databooks to see character profiles, jutsu descriptions, and to find tidbits of Konoha and Narutoverse history. The little quirks of the characters are cute, but unnecessary.


Kids buy databooks. Personally I don't give a darn about them, they are terrible products. They are clearly for kids with games and stuff. I don't see how a plot hole may be addressed by databook


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## Blu-ray (Aug 19, 2014)

My own list.


Susano'o without eyes. There is no excuse for this one. If the eyes weren't necessary, why the hell would Obito or Kakashi need both eyes to use it? Why would Sasuke's deactivate when his sight dimmed?

Resealing a Bijuu. This is just utter bullshit. Why would Kushina resealing Kurama cause her to die along with it if this was the case?

Bijuu dying. Another bullshit. Kurama was fearful of death in part 1, yet it's common knowledge Bijuu come back once they're dead.

Obito can't use Kamui as a Jin but Mads can. I tried to rationalize this, but even if he can't phase, what the hell is stopping him from teleporting normally.

Characters with absorption techniques not using them. Madara getting owned by YRS, Chidori Eiso, Nagato not absorbing Itachi's Susano'o, Naruto's chakra claw ripping Kaguya's arm off, etc.

Kaguya's character.




Hussain said:


> Madara.
> 
> He is basically the definition of polthole, asspulls....etc whatever the terms may be...
> just to name a few
> ...



First part is true. Second part is meh, considering Sasuke never showed pain with EMS, and Itachi never showed pain as an Edo. No inconsistency there.



> 2- How the heck did he get ET'd in his prime when he died as an old geezer?



Kabuto experimented on his Edo body.



> 3- He was not able to move without the GM, how did he then controlled the ANBU to kidnap Rin?



This is what I wanna know too. If Kishi actually bothered to explain the _how,_ we wouldn't have so many people calling asspull.



> 4- a Tine piece of Hashirama made him able to have access to all of Hashirama's power? Really now?
> when Obito, Zetsu, Yamato, and Danzo with way more cells couldn't do a fraction of that?



Not only do cells multiply and increase in number naturally via mitosis, it's outright said that Madara used the Gedo Mazo as a catalyst to cultivate and make _another living mindless Hashirama._ There is no way anyone had more cells than him when he had as much as the original person.

Not to mention the others were weak not because of cell count, but compatibility issues.



> 5- He gained the Rinnegan shortly before he died, and can't move without GM, yet he somehow new about
> Nagato and went to his village, and gave him his Rinnegan without his parents ever noticing a thing?



He had Zetsu servants for a reason. Ordinary people noticing would be ridiculous. Even fodder shinobi pride themselves in stealth. Genjutsu is also a thing.



> 6- Even without eyes, he was able to absorb Sasuke's Amatersu? Yeah, cool story kishi!



This was legit bullshit.



> ...etc
> I already get bored.. that disgusting character is the worst thing has ever happened to the manga, yes, even
> worst than obito himself, and that saying a lot.



Probably because 80% of what you called bullshit wasn't actually bullshit.



αce said:


> Well not sure if it was mentioned but the biggest glaring plot hole is how Naruto failed his academy exams three times and still ended up in Sasuke's graduating class



Was it said it could only be taking once per year or he would be held back? If not, then nothing was stopping him from taking it three times in a row and failing.


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## Milliardo (Aug 19, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> How could Shiryu fight if he was blind? I bet you don't know who Shiryu is. You really think that ninjas can't feel their enemies just because they can't see? Have you ever heard about "sensor" ninjas? Maybe he was not completely blind, but his eyes were WHITE and the sharingan was DEACTIVATED. So you don't need sharingan to use Susanoo



dude that is total bullshit and you know it. i don't care how itachi did it, it could have been his lasting affects of his eyes similar to electronic device once being unplugged. the point being is they always had sharingan on when using susanoo before this retarded war. it makes no fucking sense to have the sharingan activated if it isn't needed. especially since it makes them lose their sharingan because they go blind.. why the fuck does it affect the eyes if it doesn't come from the eyes? no one on this forum can apparently explain this to me. in fact it seems most run from the argument. 


this thread doesn't erase the bad writing of kishi no matter what people think is solved or not. i don't care about the definition of plothole or asspull, all it is to me is some strict rule to help defend the author. people making up explanations themselves for unexplained events doesn't solve it because they are not kishimoto. it amazes lengths you guys will go to defend this manga. i have never seen that with other manga and fans...


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 19, 2014)

1. You need to UNLOCK Susanoo along with other 2 jutsu. Once it's unlocked you can use it with no eyes. Obito has never used Susanoo without being fused with Kakashi

2. Probably Kushina stayed too much time without Kyuubi (full Kyuubi) and her body got damaged beyond point of no return. Naruto's case was different (half Kyuubi out, half Kyuubi in), and he got saved by Sakura. Without Sakura he would be dead

3. Bijuu are immortal. They die and stay dead for X time, then they revive (just like Sanbi which was inside Yagura). Why do you think Kaguya can regenerate? She is immortal, you have to seal her. You can't kill her

4. Obito was trying to phase through, not teleport. He was talking about phasing

5. Probably those are like physical attacks. Kurama's claw acts like a tiger's claw in that case. Some attacks are too hard to absorb



Milliardo said:


> i don't care how itachi did it


You don't care what? You should care because that's how Susanoo works. You don't need eyes. Itachi was blind and his sharingan was OUT. Pay more attention



> this thread doesn't erase the bad writing of kishi no matter what people think is solved or not



Bad writing is subjective, it's your opinion. Plot holes are objective, they are facts


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## Milliardo (Aug 19, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> 1. You need to UNLOCK Susanoo along with other 2 jutsu. Once it's unlocked you can use it with no eyes. Obito has never used Susanoo without being fused with Kakashi


this doesn't refute anything i said. try again please. 




> 3. Bijuu are immortal. They die and stay dead for X time, then they revive (just like Sanbi which was inside Yagura). Why do you think Kaguya can regenerate? She is immortal, you have to seal her. You can't kill her


exactly so it doesn't make sense why kyuubi was scared to die in part one.


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## CrazyAries (Aug 19, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> That's what Madara said and even Hagoromo IIRC. That was NINSHUU. Go check the chapters, I already linked the panels on this forum. I'm tired of repeating the same things 26489 times. How could chakra come from humans if humans didn't have chakra and it came from a Holy Fruit?



It would help if you could provide the links again.

I know that Madara and Hagoromo (and Kaguya) talked about united all CHAKRA, not the components of it.



> But who the fuck said it is the final product of the two? YOU said that. I said it's a THIRD part added by the Holy Tree and Otsutsuki family



Sakura did in Chapter 17 and Kakashi pretty much agreed with her.



> "Design" what? What's "design"? You think he wrote the script? LOL



Really?  You couldn’t look this up. There were threads posted on this very site about the “Road to Ninja” Movie. Here are some articles:



> *Naruto the Movie: Road to Ninja – Story, Design by Kishimoto*
> 
> Posted by Natalie Robinson on March 21, 2012 at 6:41 AM
> 
> ...





> *Masashi Kishimoto Road to Ninja: Naruto the Movie Interview*
> 
> Posted by Natalie Robinson on July 6, 2012 at 5:54 AM
> 
> ...





> *Masashi Kishimoto: Sakura Interview (Road to Ninja: Naruto the Movie)*
> 
> Posted by Natalie Robinson on July 13, 2012 at 3:19 AM
> 
> Last week the legendary creator if Naruto, Masashi Kishimoto,


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 19, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> this doesn't refute anything i said. try again please.


That answer was NOT for you.



> exactly so it doesn't make sense why kyuubi was scared to die in part one.


She was scared to die because she actually dies and stays dead for a period of time, then it revives. Why do you think Naruto could regenerate from wounds? Because Kyuubi can regenerate



CrazyAries said:


> It would help if you could provide the links again.


Man, it's simple. They said chakra was meant to connect spiritual energies of different people, so they could understand each other and use telepathy. But they used it to FIGHT, so they connected physical and spiritual energies inside them. What does it mean? That chakra cannot be the product of those two. It came from the Holy Tree: It really wasn't all that clear

Chakra is magic, it's the Third Ingredient which allows normal people to spit fire and throw hadouken


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## Dr Black (Aug 19, 2014)

KibaforHokage said:


> Why? All those justus require the eye. Susano is unlocked once you use both your MS eye justus



How does Izanagi require the eye? Izanagi cast genjutsu on oneself. What would someone need the eye for? It's not like they have to look in a mirror for the shit to work.

If someone unlocks Izanagi, and then their eye closes from blindness, "No-eyes Susanoo" logic says they can just open the eye again using Izanagi because they unlocked it.



Za Fuuru said:


> Of course. They are completely different jutsu. To use genjutsu you need eyes. To summon a warrior made of chakra you don't need eyes. I don't see any connection between eyes and a warrior made of chakra
> 
> It's Uchiha. You need Uchiha chakra. When you feel deep anger you unlock 2 jutsu in your 2 eyes PLUS Susanoo, which is not connected to your 2 eyes. Let's say it's the eye of the mind. Hence you can use it with blind eyes and without sharingan (Itachi) or with no eyeballs (Madara).



Why would you need eyes to use genjutsu? Especially one that you only cast on yourself (Izanagi)? Also, Tayuya used sound based genjutsu and Itachi was able to cast genjutsu on people with his finger. So needing your eyes to use genjutsu is false. Hell I don't see any connection between eyes and a warrior made of chakra either. Makes you wonder why Kishimoto decided it should be a technique for people who gained a certain eye technique.

And if you need to feel "deep anger" then how did Kakashi do it? He wasn't angry at all. And Obito was feeling just fine before he ghost transferred jutsu into Kakashi.



jayjay32 said:


> You could just be civilized, cut it out with the labels, acknowledge (a) there are reasonable explanations here that fans have derived, and (b) that maybe Kishimoto doesn't need to walk us through every little questionable detail, but nooo, let's just adopt your destructive mindset that the author has "plotholes" instead of "mysteries that the author can still explain or fans can rationalize."



A) Some of these explanations are hardly reasonable.

B) Kishimoto seems pretty deadset on solving all the mysteries for us. Who the Sage of 6 Paths is, the origin of chakra, how ninjutsu started, etc. The problem arises when Kishimoto attempts to solve these mysteries for us but it just opens up more questions.

Kishimoto has this habit of being unintentionally inconsistent, then later backtracks and on it by "fixing" the inconsistency. For example, Kakashi mentioned during the Chunin Exams that the Sharingan derived from the Byakugan. Then Kishimoto later tells us that the Rikudo Sennin, ancestor of the Uchiha had the Rinnegan. To "fix" this inconsistency, Kishimoto introduces us to Kaguya, who has Byakugan for seemingly no other reason than to say "No no, it's not a retcon, see?!"

Another example is when Shukaku was originally revealed, he was the living spirit of a sand priest. Then when Kishimoto revealed that all the Bijuu were split from the Juubi and that they were sad monsters, Kishimoto "fixed" that inconsistency by saying that the priest was actually a Jinchuriki, hosting Shukaku, and that people feared him so rumor got around that Shukaku was actually his spirit.

Kishimoto essentially retcons his retcons because he's constantly reminded that the stuff he comes up with does not coincide with what he had originally wrote. He's too fond of just making shit up on the fly as opposed to actually planning and foreshadowing plot elements.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 19, 2014)

Dr Black said:


> For example, Kakashi mentioned during the Chunin Exams that the Sharingan derived from the Byakugan.


That's not what he says.


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## Black Apple (Aug 19, 2014)

Doctor Crane said:


> That's not what he says.



"They say the Uchiha clan's origins lie with the Hyuga clan."

That would mean that the Uchiha are a derivative of the Hyuga. Which would also mean the Sharingan is a derivative of the Byakugan. Not a very good example.

If you look at Kaguya, you can see the Byakugan came first anyway. Well, that and the Rinnegan.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 19, 2014)

Black Apple said:


> "They say the Uchiha clan's origins lie with the Hyuga clan."
> 
> That would mean that the Uchiha are a derivative of the Hyuga. Which would also mean the Sharingan is a derivative of the Byakugan.


That's one way of interpreting it, yes.
It could be read as the two sharing a common ancestor with one becoming a "branch" house.


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## Milliardo (Aug 19, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> You don't care what? You should care because that's how Susanoo works. You don't need eyes. Itachi was blind and his sharingan was OUT. Pay more attention


i gave you an example explaining what could have happened with itachi. i mean you guys love doing that shit anyways making up shit and all. besides itachi still had his eyes anyways. the very same eyes sasuke is using now... never have we seen someone use it without eyes until this war arc and it was very much convenient.


 the most crucial point that hurts you naruto defenders and kishi is the fact that they use sharingan while susanoo is up. that doesn't make sense for a mangekyo user to do. if i'm an uchiha and i have ms i'm going to try and reserve it the best i can. so if sharingan isn't needed then why would i have it on when i have a gigantic spiritual warrior to defend me? i know using it apparently with ms makes me go blind. which is another thing that doesn't make sense because supposedly it isn't tied to the eyes... 

dude kishi fucked up its ok to admit that. hes been writing this manga for over 15 years so there are bound to be mistakes here and there.




> Bad writing is subjective, it's your opinion. Plot holes are objective, they are facts


no actually there is a such a thing is poor writing in literature.


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## PopoTime (Aug 19, 2014)

1. Hashirama.

From the VotE to Baby Tsunade's birth, he hasnt aged.




2. Madara's Eyeless Sharingan tech's, nuff said.


3. Minato being able to move as an Edo Tensei with Kurama within him


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## Trojan (Aug 19, 2014)

^

1- the first scan is filler as far as I know.
3- there is no asspulls about that.


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## gabzilla (Aug 19, 2014)

Why didn't Obito kidnap or send somebody to kidnap Naruto's ass a couple of months or years after his parents died? It seems he didn't even keep tags on him. Kakashi is good, but even he would have problems with one Akatsuki team during the Waves arc, especially after fighting Zabuza.


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## Krippy (Aug 19, 2014)

Dr Black said:


> By this logic, you don't need Sharingan for Izanami, Izanagi or Kotoamatsukami.



All three of these are ocular genjutsu techniques. Try again.


----------



## PopoTime (Aug 19, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> 
> 1- the first scan is filler as far as I know.
> 3- there is no asspulls about that.



the first scan is definitely in the manga somewhere, i remember seeing it 


Well, if living Minato's body was going numb, (with some translations saying it made it difficult to move), why was Edo Minato's body different?


----------



## Abanikochan (Aug 19, 2014)

PopoTime said:


> the first scan is definitely in the manga somewhere, i remember seeing it



That was from anime filler.


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## Trojan (Aug 19, 2014)

PopoTime said:


> the first scan is definitely in the manga somewhere, i remember seeing it
> 
> 
> Well, if living Minato's body was going numb, (with some translations saying it made it difficult to move), why was Edo Minato's body different?



1- the scan from the manga is the one with Hashirama spoiling Tsunade with gambling. 
so I guess your point can still stand.

2- Minato's body was going numb from just at the moment of sealing, after the did move when he saved his child from Kurama. Also, you can say it's the same deal with the Curse Seal, Sasuke was
not able to stand after Oro bite him. However, after some time his body got used to it.

In addition to the fact that the Edo body does not even feel pain to begin with, so that's a plus...


----------



## Ashi (Aug 19, 2014)

Hussain said:


> 1- the scan from the manga is the one with Hashirama spoiling Tsunade with gambling.
> so I guess your point can still stand.
> 
> 2- Minato's body was going numb from just at the moment of sealing, after the did move when he saved his child from Kurama. Also, you can say it's the same deal with the Curse Seal, Sasuke was
> ...



Pain =\= not able to move


----------



## CrazyAries (Aug 19, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Man, it's simple. They said chakra was meant to connect spiritual energies of different people, so they could understand each other and use telepathy. But they used it to FIGHT, so they connected physical and spiritual energies inside them. What does it mean? That chakra cannot be the product of those two. It came from the Holy Tree: That's not what he says
> 
> Chakra is magic, it's the Third Ingredient which allows normal people to spit fire and throw hadouken



Thank you for the scan. I needed to be reminded of what Madara said shortly before facing Gai.

From Madara's words, chakra was it's own entity, granted to others by Hagoromo, and augmented by their spiritual and physical energies. There, it appears that Kishimoto was tying together the new information with what we were told in Chapter 17. However, it leaves more questions still.

For one, even with this new information, it appears that anyone could produce their own chakra, but are they really kneading it with diluted chakra that originated from Hagoromo distributed? 

Secondly, and this is regardless of the answer to the first question, why would Kaguya need everyone's chakra? The most important sources are those from Hagoromo, his sons, and the bijuu. The sealing powers from Hagoromo himself are what are needed to defeat Kaguya at this point, so she would want to eliminate that threat and take that energy at the same time.

Overall, I think Kishimoto retconned the origin of chakra and made it overly complicated in the process.



Dr Black said:


> Another example is when Shukaku was originally revealed, he was the living spirit of a sand priest. Then when Kishimoto revealed that all the Bijuu were split from the Juubi and that they were sad monsters, Kishimoto "fixed" that inconsistency by saying that the priest was actually a Jinchuriki, hosting Shukaku, and that people feared him so rumor got around that Shukaku was actually his spirit.
> 
> Kishimoto essentially retcons his retcons because he's constantly reminded that the stuff he comes up with does not coincide with what he had originally wrote. He's too fond of just making shit up on the fly as opposed to actually planning and foreshadowing plot elements.



I generally agree with your conclusion, as seen above, but I'm not bothered by Shukaku's connection to the Sand priest. I think that was a reasonable explanation, and not just relatively speaking. Suna was not as progressive when dealing with bijuu or jinchuriki (no one village was, except for Kumo) and Shukaku was nuts, so it stands to reason that there would be a fear toward him and his host.


----------



## Milliardo (Aug 19, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> 
> 1- the first scan is filler as far as I know.
> 3- there is no asspulls about that.



i remember the first scan in the manga too hussain. i believe jiraiya is the one who talks about it to tsunade.


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## NO (Aug 19, 2014)

I'll update the OP soon.


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Aug 19, 2014)

This Plothole thread will be the logical reason why there should be part 3 or a next arc.


----------



## Memory (Aug 19, 2014)

The biggest pothole of all
Saying Sakura is useless
A big fuck you to all who say it to
1. She's low Kage level
2. She has the byakugo
3. Can summon Katsuya 
4. Tsunade inherited super strength from Hashirama meaning that Sakura has Hashirama super strength
5. Healed lots of ninja who almost died with out her in the pain arc.  Even though it wouldn't make a difference  

Yep.  She's useless alright.


----------



## GKY (Aug 20, 2014)

How about those 3 guys being Minato's body guards, yet only being Kakashi's age (since they were in the same graduating class).

Also Itachi beating Oro the first time. He was 19 at the start of the series, and Oro said pre-skip that he left the Akatsuki 8 years ago because he lost to Itachi. That means Itachi was 11, even though he didn't leave Konoha until he was 13. Plus he looks older than 13 in the actual panels depicting the fight.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 20, 2014)

Dr Black said:


> Why would you need eyes to use genjutsu?


Because a genjutsu is cast directly from the eye or requires an eye as a sacrifice. Tsukuyomi requires eyeball. Izanagi requires a working sharingan as a sacrifice. Susanoo doesn't require working sharingan or eyeball at all.



> And if you need to feel "deep anger" then how did Kakashi do it? He wasn't angry at all


What you mean? I said you need to feel "deep anger" to unlock Mangekyo. You unlock 2 ocular jutsu (1 per eye) + Susanoo, which is NOT ocular jutsu. Susanoo is the third eye, the eye of the mind.


----------



## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 20, 2014)

You mean to tell me that this mothafcka eluded the all-seeing eyes of  Hyuuga Clan (whom he shared a village with) for years, and Ao was the first to discover the abnormalities of his eye and arm?


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 20, 2014)

He discovered it because he fought Shisui and knew his color. Other Hyuugas fought Shisui? I don't know


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## CrazyAries (Aug 20, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> You mean to tell me that this mothafcka eluded the all-seeing eyes of  Hyuuga Clan (whom he shared a village with) for years, and Ao was the first to discover the abnormalities of his eye and arm?



There are some serious questions raised when it comes to the Byakugan. The Hyuuga could theoretically use their powers on the whole village and perhaps see any traps laid in it or investigate those with sealed arms like Danzo, but don't?

There is another issue with that panel, too. Ao saw and made note of Shisui's arm and eye, but ignored the eyes  on Danzo's arm and Hashirama's face on his shoulder (albeit, that was shown)? I guess we can chalk that up to Kishimoto hiding information for future chapters, but still, wtf?


----------



## Ashi (Aug 20, 2014)

CrazyAries said:


> There are some serious questions raised when it comes to the Byakugan. The Hyuuga could theoretically use their powers on the whole village and perhaps see any traps laid in it or investigate those with sealed arms like Danzo, but don't?
> 
> There is another issue with that panel, too. Ao saw and made note of Shisui's arm and eye, but ignored the eyes  on Danzo's arm and Hashirama's face on his shoulder (albeit, that was shown)? I guess we can chalk that up to Kishimoto hiding information for future chapters, but still, wtf?



Byakugan can't see through clothes


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## CrazyAries (Aug 20, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Byakugan can't see through clothes



Um...Yes it can. Byakugan can see through clothes and skin to see chakra coils. And in the panel mentioned above, Ao's Byakugan did all of the above to figure out that Danzo had Shisui's arm and eye.


----------



## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 20, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> He discovered it because he fought Shisui and knew his color. Other Hyuugas fought Shisui? I don't know




You're right - Ao knew the color of Shisui's chakra.

But look at the picture.
The chakra network (which an activated byakugan detects)  on Danzou's arm forms that of a face...
Face.

Faces don't usually belong on our arms, do they?


----------



## RockyIII (Aug 21, 2014)

Why did obito declare the great ninja war? It doesn't make sense why didn't he just go around capturing naruto and bee. When naruto Sakura Kakashi were battling with sasuke that was the perfect time for instance. Capturing bijuu has nothing to do with declaring war...

And even so he could have carried out the same plan without declaring war. He could have made the army etc rt and attacked in secret


----------



## NO (Aug 21, 2014)

RockyIII said:


> Why did obito declare the great ninja war? It doesn't make sense why didn't he just go around capturing naruto and bee. When naruto Sakura Kakashi were battling with sasuke that was the perfect time for instance. Capturing bijuu has nothing to do with declaring war...


This is not a plothole...


----------



## RockyIII (Aug 21, 2014)

Why? What's the explanation? Did I miss something? It doesn't make any sense at all.


----------



## Milliardo (Aug 21, 2014)

CrazyAries said:


> Um...Yes it can. Byakugan can see through clothes and skin to see chakra coils. And in the panel mentioned above, Ao's Byakugan did all of the above to figure out that Danzo had Shisui's arm and eye.



didn't neji do that in the written test part of the chunin exams?


----------



## Za Fuuru (Aug 21, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> The chakra network (which an activated byakugan detects)  on Danzou's arm forms that of a face



That's not really a "face" and it's pretty hard to see. You are assuming Hyuuga must suspect something about Danzo and activate their Byakugan to go nitpicking on Danzo's arm. Pretty farfetched to be honest. Without activating the Byakugan you won't see anything, and Hyuuga activate Byakugan only in fights against enemies.

Even if they by chance see a "face" I don't see many reasons to... call the police? Having a face on an arm is illegal? Danzo is too important in Konoha, he is not really an enemy to fight

Finding Shisui's chakra is a bit different, since Shisui is dead


----------



## Blaze Release (Aug 21, 2014)

I don't buy the viz (not worth it), however due to many viz threads i have managed to read and remember roughly what some say.


Anyway my issue is:


Minato's jinckruci form (KCM/BM)
Madara's eyeless Susanoo feat
10 Host and Kamui
MS blindness (kakashi/obito)

If i can get explanations for these i would be glad. 

Jin Minato

*Spoiler*: __ 



Hiruzen uses the shiki fujin.
As we know the demon's hands enters the user's body and uses the body as a medium. 
When hiruzen pulled the 2 hokage's souls out this is what happened.
2
2

Some might say he sealed their souls in his body.

But we all know that it isn't true because a few pages later, after getting orochimaru's soul we also see the hokage's souls (faces), along with oro's and hiruzen's attacked to the death gods
2

He then takes out his knife and cuts out the souls and eats them
2

Prior to the link above hiruzen said

"With this jutsu the one whose soul is sealed will suffer for all eternity in the belly of death"
2

So hiruzen at first appeared to have sealed the hokage's in himself, but rather he was merely a medium and the hokage's were actually tagged to his soul which is also tagged to the death god. When it took its knife out, he eat their souls.

Same thing happened with minato


Majority think this scan shows that he sealed kurama in himself, but actually its the same thing hiruzen did at first.
2

Few chapters later we saw his the portion of kurama attached to minato's soul which is attached to the death god
2

On that same page you'd note that the death god has taken its knife from his mouth and is about severe the link and devour both minato's and that portion of kurama.

To put it simple the exact same thing that happened with hiruzen happened with minato.
That portion of kurama along with minato's soul was devoured by death god. He didn't or should i say was not supposed to die a jinchrucki.

Lets put naruto becoming the saviour of the world to one side.
The other reason for minato disagreeing with kushina sealing the beast in herself and dying a jin is because it will be revived with out a host.
2
2

Ai and Tsunade say the same thing
2

Same reason akatskui are very careful not to kill the host or else they risk waiting till the beast is revived

To prevent that from happening he used the shiki fujin to seal it (not in himself because then he is doing the exact same thing that kushina proposed), but rather seal it somewhere that cannot be accessed, the belly of the death god.

Conclusion I came to was that his soul in the death gods stomach gained control of this portion of chakra and when he was summoned by the edo tensei, his soul and that of this portion of kurama were intertwined therefore by summoning his soul into a body via edo tensei he became a jin that way. Reason perhaps we didn't see kurama and his soul intertwined the way he saw it when he used the shiki fujin is because in that instance he hadn't gained control over it.

But if that is case, why doesn’t the same logic apply to Hiruzen. When oro summoned the hokage’s there were 4 spirits (the hokage’s). Why is it that with minato his soul and kurama’s intertwined as one, but in hiruzen’s case, shodaime and nindaime’s soul were separated from him. Also I know this is an anime, however why would minato even bother trying to gain control of the yin kurama. Both himself and Hiruzen stated that, the shiki fujin was a permanent seal, meaning it cannot be broken. Why bother trying to perfect and harness this power (yin kurama) if you know they is no need to, you aren’t going to use it. Clearly he felt there may be a need for it lol and that is why he mastered it whilst in the belly of the death god. Others say he didn’t master it there but once he became an edo tensei, he quickly learnt how to harness it and become a perfect jin, which in itself is BS.




Mad's eyeless susanoo


*Spoiler*: __ 



We all know that, susanoo and the E/MS are intertwined. You must master both eyes to use it. SO from the start they is a connection between the two. Some have tried to distinguish techniques like, amaterasu, tsukuyomi to susanoo by claiming the former are specifically need the eyes to work, but not susanoo because it consumes the users life force. It more to do with the body, than the eyes. Susanoo does affect the body, but it also affects the eyes no different to tsukuyomi/amaterasu, with continues use of susanoo alone we can say that, an ms user will suffer the same issue of blindness as somebody who only uses tsukuyomi/amaterasu.

Or are they telling me that, even though mastery of the MS awakens susanoo, it has absolutely nothing to do with the MS, therefore you do not need the MS to use it, but also continues usage of the technique will not affect the users eye sight. Again obvious that, susanoo does require the E/MS and has just as much detrimental effect on the users eyesight as amaterasu/tsukuyomi.
If Madara doesn’t need the E/MS to use susanoo and can use it without it, why is that he went from 3T sharingan to EMS?. He has been fighting with 3T sharingan all this while. If the E/MS isn’t needed to use susanoo, he shouldn’t need to have went from 3T sharingan to EMS. The only logically explanation for him going to EMS was to use susanoo and he did just that. Someone please explain why he activated the EMS if not for susanoo?

Others have claimed itachi used susanoo when blind. Firstly there is a difference between Itachi and Madara. Itachi firstly still has his eyes in their socket. Madara has none. Secondly itachi initially used susanoo, to protect him from kirin, he still had his MS then. After that susanoo was supposedly destroyed by kirin, he may still have had it the susanoo flair around him to still go through its other levels even though by that time he was blind. No eyes Madara’s susanoo feat and itachi’s are not the same.




10 tails host and kamui


*Spoiler*: __ 



Obito in the viz noted that he cannot use intangibility anymore, one aspect of his kamui. 
His kamui main ability it his intangibility which he can pass onto weapons he wields. His intangibility is basically teleporting parts of his body into his dimension, okay fine.
It also allows the person to absorb themselves and others to either their dimension or another location. 
So intangibility basically means obito teleporting parts of his body into his dimension. The other is that he teleports his whole body into his dimension. So could somebody explain to me, why it makes sense that 10 tails obito cannot warp part of his body into his dimension, but madara can warp his whole body into this same dimension? It is basically the same shit, and as kakashi rightfully said the same technique. 

It wasn’t explained why obito cannot warp parts of his body, if I remember correctly he said something along the lines of, this is the weakness of being the 10 tails host and that he cannot go intangible. That was it, no explanation why.

Seriously what is the difference between warping part of your body (intangibility) and warping your whole body that appears to be a limitation? Is just that people have tried to find a gap (as usually), to get kishi out of sticky situations. Personally the logically reason isn’t trying to distinguish and as much as possible amplify slight differences in the application of the same jutsu, but rather it may be the forms of the host. Perhaps madara being a more natural host than obito was the reason he didn’t face this limitation and nothing else.




MS & Blindness

*Spoiler*: __ 



There is also kakashi not going blind. The rate that kakashi used kamui in this war, was at the very least equal to how sasuke burn’t his, in a relatively short time. Heck kakashi surpasses this because if I remember correctly, awakening the MS alone starts the blindness process. Continues usage increases this process. Kakashi awakened the MS before sasuke. Secondly his usage was as bad as sasuke’s if not worse, yet much much later did he finally go blind in that eye. Oh then we have obito, lol. People have given up on a canon explanation and just said hashirama’s juice is what has allowed him to break the rules, so much that it is actually funny when discussing obito and the MS, as is the whole Naruto timeline issue lol.


----------



## CrazyAries (Aug 21, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> didn't neji do that in the written test part of the chunin exams?



Indeed he did. In Chapter 41, Neji looks completely through one test taker to see his answers.



Za Fuuru said:


> That's not really a "face" and it's pretty hard to see. You are assuming Hyuuga must suspect something about Danzo and activate their Byakugan to go nitpicking on Danzo's arm. Pretty farfetched to be honest. Without activating the Byakugan you won't see anything, and Hyuuga activate Byakugan only in fights against enemies.
> 
> Even if they by chance see a "face" I don't see many reasons to... call the police? Having a face on an arm is illegal? Danzo is too important in Konoha, he is not really an enemy to fight
> 
> Finding Shisui's chakra is a bit different, since Shisui is dead



Actually, a number of members suspected that Danzo had a face on his shoulder immediately after seeing the scans. The chakra coils do indicate a face.

Also, if a Hyuuga happened to see Hashirama's face on Danzo's arm, which can be done since the Hyuuga can see as far as they want within a certain range, the Hokage most likely would be alerted to this. There might not have been common knowledge of Orochimaru's experiments, but the Hokage would know about the experimentation with Hashirama's DNA and should put 2 and 2 together.


----------



## Za Fuuru (Aug 21, 2014)

CrazyAries said:


> Actually, a number of members suspected that Danzo had a face on his shoulder immediately after seeing the scans. The chakra coils do indicate a face.


Members? Scans? They are not in the manga. Did Ao see a face? Did Ao talk about seeing a face? No, he just said "I know Shisui's color". I don't get how readers seeing a thing can create a plot hole in a fictional work. Makes no sense

Fans often suspect things that not even the authors remotely thought. We are talking about how the "face" is seen in the manga by the characters, not by the readers. I don't think having two channels of chakra linked in a different way is considered illegal, but whatever


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## CrazyAries (Aug 21, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Members? Scans? They are not in the manga. Did Ao see a face? Did Ao talk about seeing a face? No, he just said "I know Shisui's color". I don't get how readers seeing a thing can create a plot hole in a fictional work. Makes no sense
> 
> Fans often suspect things that not even the authors remotely thought. We are talking about how the "face" is seen in the manga by the characters, not by the readers. I don't think having two channels of chakra linked in a different way is considered illegal, but whatever



If you saw an earlier response of mine in this thread, I did not expressly call that a plothole...



CrazyAries said:


> There are some serious questions raised when it comes to the Byakugan. The Hyuuga could theoretically use their powers on the whole village and perhaps see any traps laid in it or investigate those with sealed arms like Danzo, but don't?
> 
> There is another issue with that panel, too. Ao saw and made note of Shisui's arm and eye, but ignored the eyes  on Danzo's arm and Hashirama's face on his shoulder (albeit, that was shown)? *I guess we can chalk that up to Kishimoto hiding information for future chapters, but still, wtf?*



...but it's funny that Ao would make no mental note of the face on Danzo's shoulder, nor the eyes on his arm. I say this because, clearly, Ao could see through Danzo's clothes and the bolts on the arm that covered everything. That meant that Ao should have been able to see everything there.

As it turns out, Danzo DID IN FACT have Hashirama's face grafted on his shoulder, so the speculation was right at that time. There was just no indication from Ao's thoughts. This is an example of Kishimoto hiding future details, but it looks odd in hindsight.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 21, 2014)

Fans are mostly high school kids with nothing to do, so they analyze every single panel and think too much about every irrelevant detail. They like to write "theories" and a lot of bullshit on forums (just look here on NF)

I repeat, that's barely a "face". Ao saw no face at all. He just said "I see Shisui color". The "face" is just a tiny detail for the most careful readers. But has no involvement in the plot


----------



## Nathan Copeland (Aug 21, 2014)

lets not forget Sasuke being completely out of chakra, summoning Manda to escape from Dei's Co blast


----------



## Frostman (Aug 22, 2014)

To explain the eyeless Susanoo. Tobirama explains that the sharingan is a result of special chakara produced from the brain. (ch619)

So that would mean that the chakara produced by their brain is what makes them special, not just the sharingan. Though the sharingan is required to cast certain doujutsus like Amateratsu and Kamui. They are techniques cast directly from the eye. 

Now consider this, Sasuke swapped his eyes with Itachi, yet he was still able to use his own original technique(the one that shapes amateratsu). If the eyes were the sole source of the Uchiha power, then Sasuke with Itachi's eyes would be limited to Itachi's techniques. And keep in mind the design change of the EMS. 

Its the same with kakashi, he gained the sharingan the moment Obito delivered his chakara to him. 

Now Susanoo is different from the other doujutsu. It is not cast from the eyes. Susanaoo is pure chakara that enveloped the user. Its the same special chakara that evolves the eyes into the sharingan.

tl;dr

The special chakara that the Uchiha produce is what makes them special not the eyes. In fact its the chakara that causes the eyes to change. It evolves the eyes coding  them with the ability to use special eye techniques. So when someone uses susanoo, if they have eyes, they just naturally change into the MS because that chakara is pumping throughout their own bodies.


---

Danzou and Ao

Ao was looking at the chakara networks he probably couldn't pick up the other eyes because they were not being used or activated. They were not producing chakara.

--

Kakashi and chunning exam

Its not a plot hole because you can not get an accurate judgment of someones age in this manga solely on their looks. That is just the way Kishimotto decided to draw them.


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## Jagger (Aug 22, 2014)

For those saying that Kakashi needing Obito's eyes to unlock makes the theory "Madara doesn't need eyes to use Susano'O" invalid, let me remind you Kakashi is not a natural Uchiha. 

Therebefore, he can't naturally produce the special chakra segregated in their brain like, for example, Madara.


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 22, 2014)

I don't think it's a plothole, but the Susanoo thing is badly executed at the very least, Madara has tons of way to escape Gaara's sand but no, he must use no eye Susanoo. 

To me the biggest plothole is Obito, all his actions are left unexplained for the sake of Friendship (Bloody Mist, Obsession on Sauce, Sharingan lab, Trade with Danzo, Kamui dimension mystery etc).


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## Frostman (Aug 22, 2014)

Having a persons DNA in you also allows you to produces their chakara. Evident from Madara stealing Hashirama cells. AS well as Danzou. Also all of the DNA splice Kabuto did(Karin noted that his chakra changed). It would also explain all the non uchiha sharingan users. As well as EMS haveing a hybrid of both Uchiha's eyes.

And i believe Sakura explain that chakara is produced by the cells in your body in the early chapters.


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## Ashi (Aug 22, 2014)

CrazyAries said:


> Indeed he did. In Chapter 41, Neji looks completely through one test taker to see his answers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Notice how he didn't see any skin tho?


He was only able to see through to get to his test answers


----------



## Edward Newgate (Aug 22, 2014)

2nd Mizukage bit his finger for the summoning technique, even though Edo Tensei don't bleed.

Naruto failed to pass the exams three times in the past, yet he doesn't know Neji's group who are just a year older than him.

What's the deal with the Bloody Mist? It was said to be during Yagura's reign as the Mizukage. Not the previous one's, but his. But he was portrayed as a nice guy when not controlled by Obito. Then again, Obito could not be responsible for the Bloody Mist because he came only later. Remember Rin died with the Sanbi inside her after Obito's "death", but the Bloody Mist era was as far as Zabuza's academy days (about 18 years ago, when he was roughly the same age as Naruto)


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## NO (Aug 22, 2014)

RockyIII said:


> Why? What's the explanation? Did I miss something? It doesn't make any sense at all.


A plothole has to create a paradox in the story. If there's any room for explanation (and I can come up with multiple), it's not a plothole.


----------



## Shinryu (Aug 22, 2014)

The biggest plothole right now is Kaguya being the Juubi

Madara stated she ate the fruit which implies she was seperate from the Juubi.Yep for some reason Kaguya is the Juubi no the SHinju.The biggest plothole is Kaguya being inside the God Tree because it made no sense at all.Where did she come from? Why didnt she remanifest her human form the instant the Juubi was formed if she is the Juubi? How can she be mindless if she is a human? How is it possible to even control the Juubi if its is her? How did Hagoromo even defeat her if she is the Juubi?


----------



## X Pain X (Aug 22, 2014)

Itachi used Susano'o when he was blind.


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Aug 22, 2014)

Zetsu army
Other rvillages
MYM
Hamura
The first narvoverse humans


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## t0xeus (Aug 22, 2014)

I've never understood how Shisui was able to use Kotoamatsukami with both eyes, even when the other eye should have another power.


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## Frostman (Aug 22, 2014)

Naruto taking the test multiple times ca be explained if the test is done multiple times a year like the chunnin exams. It says he took the test three times, it doesn't say he took the classes three times.



t0xeus said:


> I've never understood how Shisui was able to use Kotoamatsukami with both eyes, even when the other eye should have another power.



Actually the anomaly is Itachi. He is the only only know user to have completely different abilities in his eyes.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 22, 2014)

Nathan Copeland said:


> lets not forget Sasuke being completely out of chakra, summoning Manda to escape from Dei's Co blast


Who said Sasuke was "completely" out of chakra? What proof do we have?



Shinryu said:


> The biggest plothole right now is Kaguya being the Juubi


What are you talking about? Kaguya absorbed the Tree and turned into Juubi. There is nothing hard to understand, it's pretty simple


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 24, 2014)

Here's one:

After the Edo Hokages wrapped up their discussion with Sasuke, Minato grabbed Hiruzen's shoulder, and Tobirama grabbed Hashirama's and they all teleported to the Hokage Monument.

My question:
How the f!ck was Tobirama able to teleport there without any seals/markings placed beforehand?


----------



## fakkiha (Aug 24, 2014)

RockyIII said:


> Why did obito declare the great ninja war? It doesn't make sense why didn't he just go around capturing naruto and bee. When naruto Sakura Kakashi were battling with sasuke that was the perfect time for instance. Capturing bijuu has nothing to do with declaring war...
> 
> And even so he could have carried out the same plan without declaring war. He could have made the army etc rt and attacked in secret



 It was the excuse of Kishimoto to surpass himself and create the worst arc in the Manga up to date, the mission would be several times more succesful without any war involved.


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## Palm Siberia (Aug 24, 2014)

Not asspull rather something that was not explained if you think about it once Tobi got the jars with the gold and silver bros he could have just went somewhere and started the process. As we saw he did this anyway despite the Jubii not being complete.


----------



## Milliardo (Aug 24, 2014)

Frostman said:


> To explain the eyeless Susanoo. Tobirama explains that the sharingan is a result of special chakara produced from the brain. (ch619)
> 
> So that would mean that the chakara produced by their brain is what makes them special, not just the sharingan. Though the sharingan is required to cast certain doujutsus like Amateratsu and Kamui. They are techniques cast directly from the eye.


 so why would it matter that they switched eyes then? wouldn't any eye do? that doesn't make sense. if chakra is the most important element here then why would madara even care to get his original eyes back? like say when he stole kakashi's(obito's) sharingan.

no offense to you personally but this doesn't counter what i posted. the susanoo affects the eyes and makes them go blind. so obviously they are tied to the eyes. if it doesn't come from the eyes there is no reason it should affect the eyes. you are using speculation to claim that the chakra use for susanoo forces them to use sharingan. that was never stated. that is your opinion alone until kishimoto proves it as a fact. that seems forced and out of place from technique that doesn't require the eyes. the damage to the body makes more sense like when sasuke said every cell in his body hurt.





> Now consider this, Sasuke swapped his eyes with Itachi, yet he was still able to use his own original technique(the one that shapes amateratsu). If the eyes were the sole source of the Uchiha power, then Sasuke with Itachi's eyes would be limited to Itachi's techniques. And keep in mind the design change of the EMS.
> 
> Its the same with kakashi, he gained the sharingan the moment Obito delivered his chakara to him.


yet when you take other uchiha's sharingan you get their abilities like obito's or shisui's for example. sasuke only ever really used amaterasu anyways.

so basically anybodies eyes will do right? yet madara wanted his original eyes. kishi likes to pick and choose.




> Now Susanoo is different from the other doujutsu. It is not cast from the eyes. Susanaoo is pure chakara that enveloped the user. Its the same special chakara that evolves the eyes into the sharingan.


once again your speculation.(basically saying that the sharingan is required when using susanoo) it doesn't make sense why it would affect the eyes at all(since thy are not needed) nor was it explained that way at first. the explanation you are going off of was well into the war when asspulls started so at best its a retcon. it makes more sense to call it a separate kekkai genkai altogether for the uchiha if the eyes technically aren't required. it also means that they wouldn't have to worry so much about going blind because they could still use susanoo. i think there is a clear contradiction there. 




> The special chakara that the Uchiha produce is what makes them special not the eyes. In fact its the chakara that causes the eyes to change. It evolves the eyes coding  them with the ability to use special eye techniques. So when someone uses susanoo, if they have eyes, they just naturally change into the MS because that chakara is pumping throughout their own bodies.


kishi contradicts himself on this with multiple times as i explained. by your definition it wouldn't matter if they had two eyes because its only the chakra is needed so technically obito could have used susanoo way back when. hell, he should have been able to use other kamui power kakashi used with a different sharingan.

not only that they don't even need uchiha eyes they should be able to use any person's eyes to use uchiha jutsu. why exactly were uchiha killing one another to get another sharingan for izanagi when any eye ball will do? 

i don't think anybody can explain this without opening another can of worms tbh. i'm not trying to be an asshole here i'm just saying kishi flipflops on his rules within this manga. your argument has been the best i've seen so i'll give you that frost. i'm done after this because i'm tired of trying to figure it out. i quit once it stops being fun to me. you guys want to explain for kishi be my guest i don't care.


----------



## RockyIII (Aug 24, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> A plothole has to create a paradox in the story. If there's any room for explanation (and I can come up with multiple), it's not a plothole.





Tell me one. That's the absolute most strict definition of a plot hole. A plot hole is usually when there is a paradox/contradiction that's not explained or strongly implied by the author.


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## Iruel (Aug 24, 2014)

Edward Newgate said:


> 2nd Mizukage bit his finger for the summoning technique, even though Edo Tensei don't bleed.
> 
> Naruto failed to pass the exams three times in the past, yet he doesn't know Neji's group who are just a year older than him.
> 
> *What's the deal with the Bloody Mist? It was said to be during Yagura's reign as the Mizukage. Not the previous one's, but his. But he was portrayed as a nice guy when not controlled by Obito. Then again, Obito could not be responsible for the Bloody Mist because he came only later. Remember Rin died with the Sanbi inside her after Obito's "death", but the Bloody Mist era was as far as Zabuza's academy days (about 18 years ago, when he was roughly the same age as Naruto)*



It was before Yaguras time..and when he became Mizukage (which probably happened before Obito came about) he was probably a benevolent leader, and then Obito took over and he was probably using him to start the Bloody Mist again.


----------



## Blu-ray (Aug 24, 2014)

Nathan Copeland said:


> lets not forget Sasuke being completely out of chakra, summoning Manda to escape from Dei's Co blast



If you're completely out of chakra, you die. This was established ever since Kakashi taught Sasuke Chidori. He was alive, hence he had more.

Even Kabuto way back in part one said he had no chakra left after taking Naruto's first complete Rasengan, to the point he could not walk, yet had enough to summon Manda.


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## Shadow050 (Aug 24, 2014)

Dr Black said:


> Kakashi mentions passing the Chunin Exam at age 6.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




umm... about kakashi's age... i myself explained this:


so that's not actually a plothole...


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 24, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> if chakra is the most important element here then why would madara even care to get his original eyes back?


Because it took 50 years to unlock Rinnegan. Limbo is cast by eye. You see a zoom on the eye when the move is used 

Susanoo is not cast by eyeballs, we have never seen the move getting out of the eyes like Cyclops laser beam.

Casting Amaterasu without mangekyo is impossible. Using Susanoo is completely different. Have you ever seen a zoom on their eyes during the use of Susanoo? Do you understand of a comic works? The direction is very important, a mangaka is like the director of a movie. These details are important


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## Nathan Copeland (Aug 24, 2014)

how the fuck did obito create multiple rinnegans for edo jins


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 24, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> If you're completely out of chakra, you die. This was established ever since Kakashi taught Sasuke Chidori. He was alive, hence he had more.
> 
> Even Kabuto way back in part one said he had no chakra left after taking Naruto's first complete Rasengan, to the point he could not walk, yet had enough to summon Manda.




Yeah but that's not all....

The kid summoned a *boss*  summon - when he was already low on stamina to begin with.
Not only that, but he managed to place him under genjutsu, jump into his mouth, and be reverse-summoned. He accomplished all these tasks when he was only a few meters away from an explosion that was said to be capable of leveling 10km worth of real estate.


Definitely a Deus ex Machina  of considerable levels.


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## Shinryu (Aug 24, 2014)

> What are you talking about? Kaguya absorbed the Tree and turned into Juubi. There is nothing hard to understand, it's pretty simple



How the fuck did Hagoromo defeat her then if she was stronger than her?


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 24, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> Definitely a Deus ex Machina  of considerable levels.


You are talking as if someone forced Kishimoto to draw a giant explosion and he had to find a solution. Use your brain, would ya? It's a TRICK to deceive the reader. If Sasuke did what he did, it's just because:

- he had enough chakra
- he had enough time

The huge explosion was created by Kishimoto, not by someone else. There is a hidden TIME GAP between the panels, that's the trick to make the reader think there was no time. So the reader thinks "OMG Sasuke is dead" and you make a cliffhanger. How to draw a comic, lesson 1



Shinryu said:


> How the fuck did Hagoromo defeat her then if she was stronger than her?


First thing first, they were TWO. Hamura helped. Second he didn't kill her, he sealed her inside himself.


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## Milliardo (Aug 25, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Because it took 50 years to unlock Rinnegan. Limbo is cast by eye. You see a zoom on the eye when the move is used
> 
> Susanoo is not cast by eyeballs, we have never seen the move getting out of the eyes like Cyclops laser beam.
> 
> Casting Amaterasu without mangekyo is impossible. Using Susanoo is completely different. Have you ever seen a zoom on their eyes during the use of Susanoo? Do you understand of a comic works? The direction is very important, a mangaka is like the director of a movie. These details are important


do you not understand what you read? 

going off frostman's explanation you should easily understand what i'm getting at...

again i'm not going to go on some 10 page argument over this shit. i get it you're pro kishi have fun trying to explain his flaws for him.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 25, 2014)

Nathan Copeland said:


> how the fuck did obito create multiple rinnegans for edo jins



The same way Nagato created Rinnegan in all the Six Paths of Pain bodies. Well in Obtio's case, the chakra receivers are implanted into the Edo Jinchuuriki bodies even though they're made of ash. 

We saw Animal Path's body being analyzed by Shizune and appeared again when Preta Path was ambushed by Kiba and Tsume. The body still retains the Rinnegan look despite being dead. Don't know the workings behind that though. I thought the eye would at least revert back to normal upon lost connection or something....


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 25, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> Here's one:
> 
> After the Edo Hokages wrapped up their discussion with Sasuke, Minato grabbed Hiruzen's shoulder, and Tobirama grabbed Hashirama's and they all teleported to the Hokage Monument.
> 
> ...


Because Tobirama and Hiruzen still have their respective markings on the statues.


VolatileSoul said:


> If you're completely out of chakra, you die.


Not quite. Dying from loss of chakra is a worst-case scenario.


Nathan Copeland said:


> how the fuck did obito create multiple rinnegans for edo jins


Same way Nagato "creates" multiple Rinnegan and similar to how Obito "creates" Sharigan in Kakashi, sharing chakra and imparting power.


Quikdraw7777 said:


> The kid summoned a *boss*  summon - when *he was already low on stamina* to begin with.


Now does Sasuke say this? Or does Deidara assume this? 


Bahamut Slayer said:


> I thought the eye would at least revert back to normal upon lost connection or something....


Unfortunately we never see the eyes of Nagato's fallen Paths after all of their piercings are removed.


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## tari101190 (Aug 25, 2014)

The tattoo on Sasuke's arm is what he used to summon Manda. It probably had chakra sealed in the tattoo.

Kabuto did the same for Orochimaru when they fought Jiraiya & Tsunade. Orochimaru had the tattoo on his arm too.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 25, 2014)

So.... any explanation as to how God Realm Pain manages to perform the Chibaku Tensei that totally gravitates a vast range (its sheer size emphasized in is a worst-case scenario and such) with KN6 Naruto along with it BUT somehow God Realm Pain himself doesn't get pulled in too?

KN6 was just a few feet behind him, and yet he doesn't get pulled in when the earth beneath KN6 gets pulled in?


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 25, 2014)

Doctor Crane said:


> Because Tobirama and Hiruzen still have their respective markings on the statues.
> Not quite. Dying from loss of chakra is a worst-case scenario.
> Same way Nagato "creates" multiple Rinnegan and similar to how Obito "creates" Sharigan in Kakashi, sharing chakra and imparting power.
> Now does Sasuke say this? Or does Deidara assume this?
> Unfortunately we never see the eyes of Nagato's fallen Paths after all of their piercings are removed.




About Tobirama:
What you said there raises even more questions....

If he had already placed a seal on his face on the Hokage Monument, why didn't he just teleport his students there when they were being stalked by the Kinkau Force?

It doesn't seem intelligent to sacrifice yourself, when you could have just brought everyone (yourself included) back to Konoha in the blink of an eye.

Hairaishin is so hax in the sense that it's instant, and apparently ignores parameters regarding distance. And Minato & Tobirama reveal that you can take anything that's in direct contact with your person - with seemingly no trouble at all.

So it's either:

A) he didn't mark Hokage Monument = plot hole as to how he got there unassisted.
B) he DID mark it = plot hole (or at least heavy dose of CIC/PIS) as to how he couldn't escape Kinkaku Force.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 25, 2014)

Milliardo said:


> again i'm not going to go on some 10 page argument over this shit



You don't need 10 pages, a couple of lines is enough. Explain why you think that's wrong PLZ. Amaterasu and Susanoo are two completely different techniques. The first requires the eye physically in your skull, the second requires only to be unlocked with the other two. Then you can use it without sharingan like Itachi did


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 25, 2014)

Nathan Copeland said:


> lets not forget Sasuke being completely out of chakra, summoning Manda to escape from Dei's Co blast



I remember asking the same question until someone gave a somewhat reasonable explanation to this situation. 

Sasuke was low on chakra, but he wasn't completely out of chakra. His state of exhaustion wasn't really that bad since Sasuke actually tried jumping away in trying to escape from the explosion. If he was really exhausted, he wouldn't have stamina to move in the first place, pushed to the point of having no stamina (for physical energy) and spiritual energy to make chakra.

The lowest point of Sasuke having no chakra and thoroughly exhausted is when he fought Itachi. He was out of chakra that Orochimaru was no longer suppressed. From that moment on, he was no longer using fancy Ninjutsu, all he did was throw a kunai with explosion tags. After Itachi dies, he passes out.

is a worst-case scenario 

So he wasn't completely out of chakra. Having enough chakra to summon a boss summoning and perform Genjutsu? Well that's.... uh.... I guess he has enough chakra to do both? Shrugs.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 25, 2014)

Bahamut Slayer said:


> So.... any explanation as to how God Realm Pain manages to perform the Chibaku Tensei that totally gravitates a vast range (its sheer size emphasized in is a worst-case scenario and such) with KN6 Naruto along with it BUT somehow God Realm Pain himself doesn't get pulled in too?


Tendo throws it away back behind himself. He could use his gravity powers to pull/push himself along.

Also, _Chibaku Tensei_ should grow in power as its size increases, giving Tendo time to escape its area of effect.



Quikdraw7777 said:


> If he had already placed a seal on his face on the Hokage Monument, why didn't he just teleport his students there when they were being stalked by the Kinkau Force?


Because his _Hiraishin no Jutsu_ seems to have been more limited than Minato's.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 25, 2014)

Sure God Realm threw it behind him, but KN6 was still chasing after him anyways. The short distance between them and the vast area that was sucked into the Chibaku Tensei just doesn't seem to justify just how easily God Realm manages to escape the range. It's not S/T Jutsu like Sasuke did with Deidara's blast. It's outrunning this more limited than Minato's

Likely scenario for this too.

more limited than Minato's

It's like Edo Nagato throws the Chibaku Tensei into the air and yet only Naruto, Itachi, and Killer Bee are affected by it. Nagato was right there, he wasn't running (being Edo under control and all) and the gravitational pull on seems to affect Naruto, Itachi, and Killer Bee's place. Nagato was just standing there till he got ambushed by Itachi's Sword of Totsuka. No effect on him at all.


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## Esket (Aug 25, 2014)

What about when KN6 was sucked into chibaku tensei and went up to 8 tails but when he came out he had no burnt skin or any injured at all like when he first went 4 tails but was seriously injured from the whole thing.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 25, 2014)

Esket said:


> What about when KN6 was sucked into chibaku tensei and went up to 8 tails but when he came out he had no burnt skin or any injured at all like when he first went 4 tails but was seriously injured from the whole thing.



Who knows? Burnt skin and all injured collapsing after KN4, Yamato proposed leaving him behind yet he's all fine fighting against God Realm without the slightest hitch after he went up to 8 tails. If I'm not mistaken, even the number on Yamato's palm went up to nine as he says 'Damn it, it's too late.'


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## Blu-ray (Aug 25, 2014)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> Yeah but that's not all....
> 
> The kid summoned a *boss*  summon - when he was already low on stamina to begin with.



As Nesha said:



> Now does Sasuke say this? Or does Deidara assume this?







> Not only that, but he managed to place him under genjutsu, jump into his mouth, and be reverse-summoned. He accomplished all these tasks when he was only a few meters away from an explosion that was said to be capable of leveling 10km worth of real estate.
> 
> 
> Definitely a Deus ex Machina  of considerable levels.




That isn't a Dues Ex Machina though. That would be bringing in an entirely new plot device that was never foreshadowed to solve a situation that couldn't be otherwise.

Summoning, genjutsu control, and Sasuke's insane speed was nothing new. At best, it was just readers having an extremely low willing suspension of belief. He didn't even escape the explosion. Manda was still caught in it and died.



Bahamut Slayer said:


> So.... any explanation as to how God Realm Pain manages to perform the Chibaku Tensei that totally gravitates a vast range (its sheer size emphasized in _http://www.mangapanda.com/93-236-6/naruto/chapter-231.html_ and such) with KN6 Naruto along with it BUT somehow God Realm Pain himself doesn't get pulled in too?
> 
> KN6 was just a few feet behind him, and yet he doesn't get pulled in when the earth beneath KN6 gets pulled in?



I imagine for the same reason Mei doesn't get melted by her acid or Sasuke doesn't get burned by his Amaterasu. Your techniques don't always affect you negatively because you have control over it.



Doctor Crane said:


> .
> Not quite. Dying from loss of chakra is a worst-case scenario.



Noted.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 25, 2014)

Doctor Crane said:


> Tendo throws it away back behind himself. He could use his gravity powers to pull/push himself along.
> 
> Also, _Chibaku Tensei_ should grow in power as its size increases, giving Tendo time to escape its area of effect.
> 
> Because his _Hiraishin no Jutsu_ seems to have been more limited than Minato's.



But I can't understand how so if it's the same jutsu.... He admits that Minato is faster with it than he is. Other than that, he never really specifies these "limitations".


In the amount of time it took him to:

1) use a jutsu to detect 20 enemies around him.
2) listen to his students lament how they are outmatched and need a decoy to drive them away
3) listen to Danzou chastise Hiruzen for volunteering to be said decoy.
4) Give a rousing last speech to his students about being the "bright young flames" of the Village and then selecting Hiruzen to be his successor.

He could have very well marked the very ground they stood on and made 6 trips - 3 if he was able to bring a student in each hand.

He had more than enough time to do what needed to be done there.

The story of the Gold & Silver Brothers ambushing him and the 2nd Raikage would've seemed more believable for his death than this.


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## eepdoodle (Aug 25, 2014)

?	Itachi encourages Sasuke to kill his best friend to gain mangekyo. Why would Itachi, the loving brother and Konoha patriot, do this?

?	Itachi torments Sasuke with Tsukuyomi for a second time. This was simply excessive and irrational in that situation.

?	Part 1 Gaara thinks Shukaku is the spirit of a Suna monk. Why would his father have not explained the bijuus to his precious jinchuuriki?

?	We were told QB had to be sealed in the GM last. Why did Obito apparently go after him first?

?	Kakashi knew that Naruto was his beloved sensei?s son but consciously decided to remain a stranger to him.

?	Jiraiya was Naruto?s actual godfather, but waits until the orphan is 12 before introducing himself.

?	Kakashi knows the rasengan, but insists on using the power comparable chidori in spite of its massive physical drawbacks.

?	Kage bunshin experiences are relayed to the original, but Naruto never noticed this after years of using it.

?	Ao could use byakugan to recognize Shisui?s chakra in Danzo?s transplanted sharingan, but Hinata didn?t notice that unmasked Obito had the same chakra as Kakashi?s transplanted sharingan?


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## Pyre's Plight (Aug 25, 2014)

Based on the definition in the first post, there aren't any plotholes in Naruto. You can just make assumptions to fill the gaps or Kishi could just explain something away later on. I'm surprised nobody mentioned the gravity dimension thing with Obito and Kakashi.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 25, 2014)

eepdoodle said:


> Itachi encourages Sasuke to kill his best friend to gain mangekyo


Itachi wanted Sasuke to be stronger, and he didn't want him to know the truth about the clan. Don't forget the automatic Amaterasu that started when he saw Obito's sharingan. So how could Sasuke unlock the mangekyo if Obito didn't tell him the truth? How could Sasuke fight Obito-Madara without having mangekyo? He could unlock mangekyo at the VotE fight against Naruto. BTW Itachi knew that killing Naruto wasn't an easy task. It was all about training and getting stronger. You'll get stronger only by fighting VS strong opponents



> We were told QB had to be sealed in the GM last. Why did Obito apparently go after him first?


This is a bit tricky. Let's say because the seal was weak because of the childbirth. Plus he wanted to use Kyuubi to crush Konoha



> Jiraiya was Naruto?s actual godfather, but waits until the orphan is 12 before introducing himself


Do you remember what you did when you were 6 years old? I don't. Plus Jiraiya didn't even live in the village



> Ao could use byakugan to recognize Shisui?s chakra in Danzo?s transplanted sharingan, but Hinata didn?t notice that unmasked Obito had the same chakra as Kakashi?s transplanted sharingan?


They knew the masked man had the sharingan. Kakashi knew it. I don't think it's easy to recognize the chakra color. How many colors you think you can recognize? Shisui was an exception probably (a strange color), or maybe Ao was shocked by his power and his color stayed imprinted in his memory for some reason



Pyre's Plight said:


> I'm surprised nobody mentioned the gravity dimension thing with Obito and Kakashi.


Gravity stopped working when Kaguya was running out of chakra. So she was controlling the gravity and probably there were some areas with lower gravity, for example in front of her so that she could shoot the bones which were affected by gravity. This may be an explanation. But I think Gravity Dimension will be used again in the future. It's too early to tell.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 26, 2014)

Not sure if this is even a plot hole, but basically Kabuto is a Leaf-nin with a made up background that he was found at the Battle of Kikyo Pass, taken in and is the son of a medic-nin, who has repeatedly taken the Chuunin exams several times. Pretty much the Kabuto that Danzo wanted him to be assassinated (the initial of having Nonou and Kabuto kill one another, and even have Orochimaru kill the survivor of that battle)? Danzo deems Kabuto to be too good of a spy who knows too much, ordered him to be killed, and yet this doesn't cause problems that this is the same Genin who is part of the Konoha shinobi system taking missions and Chuunin exams? Danzo just sits back? 

Surely Kabuto would pop out in Danzo's radar. This is the same guy who has shinobi giving Sai the background of all the ANBU under the command of the Hokage as a gift of good will to Orochimaru. A 'Yakushi Kabuto' with his picture in the registry? They just leave him alone?


----------



## Escargon (Aug 27, 2014)

Obito has ripped both his arms in this manga yet only half of his body is made of Zetsu 

PLOTHOLEZ


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## Eylandos (Aug 27, 2014)

The SO6P coming out of Madara's legs
Obito using kamui in death
Kakashi getting a pair of sharingun.

And this is only from the last 12 chapters


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 27, 2014)

Escargon said:


> Obito has ripped both his arms in this manga yet only half of his body is made of Zetsu
> 
> PLOTHOLEZ



I don't really remember any panel that shows Obito losing both arms. However, I do remember Obito losing his right arm twice, during his fight against Fu and Torune, then against Konan. Those are from half of his body made of Zetsu as you put it, his right side, so he has no problem replacing it again and again.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 27, 2014)

Obito lost left hand against Minato IIRC. BTW it's not a problem, even if it's the left half of the body


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 27, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Obito lost left hand against Minato IIRC. BTW it's not a problem, even if it's the left half of the body



May be Obito is like Sponge Bob Square Pants in 'King Neptune's Spatula', he has two left hands. The one you saw during the Fourth Hokage fight was a left hand that just happens to be on his right side.


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## eepdoodle (Aug 27, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Itachi wanted Sasuke to be stronger, and he didn't want him to know the truth about the clan. Don't forget the automatic Amaterasu that started when he saw Obito's sharingan. So how could Sasuke unlock the mangekyo if Obito didn't tell him the truth? How could Sasuke fight Obito-Madara without having mangekyo? He could unlock mangekyo at the VotE fight against Naruto. BTW Itachi knew that killing Naruto wasn't an easy task. It was all about training and getting stronger. You'll get stronger only by fighting VS strong opponents


Sorry, but it was made clear that Itachi?s hope was to make Sasuke a hero of Konoha. Having him murder one of its citizens is 180 degrees from that goal. Also, there was no way for Itachi to have imagined who this ?friend? would wind up being at the time of his instruction.



Za Fuuru said:


> This is a bit tricky. Let's say because the seal was weak because of the childbirth. Plus he wanted to use Kyuubi to crush Konoha


The ?sealed last? requirement was the excuse we were given for Akatsuki not pursuing Naruto during the time-skip. What was Obito going to do with Kurama for however long it took to get the other 8? Whatever the answer, it would then invalidate the time-skip scenario. Paradox.



Za Fuuru said:


> Do you remember what you did when you were 6 years old? I don't. Plus Jiraiya didn't even live in the village


I remember having a grandfather. I remember not seeing him much but knowing that the guy existed. He made a promise to look after the kid, but we have zero evidence he ever made the tiniest effort to check on him during the first decade of life. You don?t have to live in the same town as someone to pay a visit. It?s not necessarily a plot-hole though, Jiraiya might just be an asshole.



Za Fuuru said:


> They knew the masked man had the sharingan. Kakashi knew it. I don't think it's easy to recognize the chakra color. How many colors you think you can recognize? Shisui was an exception probably (a strange color), or maybe Ao was shocked by his power and his color stayed imprinted in his memory for some reason


Or Hinata is just a fail as per usual. This is just a nitpick more than a plot-hole.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 27, 2014)

eepdoodle said:


> Sorry, but it was made clear that Itachi?s hope was to make Sasuke a hero of Konoha


Yeah but he didn't want him to know the truth about the clan. So how could Sasuke unlock mangekyo? If he didn't know the truth about Itachi, he would have never unlocked mangekyo. He unlocked mangekyo only because Obito told him the truth. It was not part of Itachi's plan



> Also, there was no way for Itachi to have imagined who this ?friend? would wind up being at the time of his instruction.


Not the first time but when he came back with Kisame he knew he was going to fight VS Naruto. Probably he was fine with that? Anyway, Sasuke without the mangekyo was fodder. And Itachi knew that Obito existed because he said "there is another mangekyo user". He knew Sasuke had to fight against Obito, soon or later



> What was Obito going to do with Kurama for however long it took to get the other 8?


I don't know. As I said, the seal was weak due to the childbirth, so he took advantage of that. He decided to crush Konoha also. What about after the destruction of Konoha? I don't know, probably they were going to store Kyuubi somewhere (NOT IN THE GEDO MAZO) so that they could control it with the sharingan and use it to get the other 8? Maybe getting the other 8 with Kyuubi would have been easier, since Obito didn't have the help from other Akatsuki members. He was alone at that time



> I remember having a grandfather


I don't remember what I did when I was at kindergarten, to be honest. You may remember your grandpa because you kept seeing him for some time. Jiraiya didn't live in the village



> we have zero evidence he ever made the tiniest effort to check on him during the first decade of life


But we have zero evidence that he NEVER went to visit Naruto when Naruto was 5-6 years old. Honestly it's not an important point, don't overrate it. Anyway, Jiraiya was a bit mad also so it's not out of character



> Or Hinata is just a fail as per usual. This is just a nitpick more than a plot-hole.



Well we don't know how this color thing works, it's not clear. Let's say there are 1 million people in Naruto Universe, I don't think there are 1 million different colors. Maybe Obito had a color similar to other ninjas also, so who knows. It's a bit hard to recognize 1 million colors LOL. I can barely see 16 colors ahahah


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## eepdoodle (Aug 27, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Yeah but he didn't want him to know the truth about the clan. So how could Sasuke unlock mangekyo? If he didn't know the truth about Itachi, he would have never unlocked mangekyo. He unlocked mangekyo only because Obito told him the truth. It was not part of Itachi's plan


That?s where the plot-hole comes in. The two concepts negate one another. Itachi wanted to give Sasuke a righteous path to follow, but the means he gave to walk it were corrupt. No one willing to take the life of the one dearest to them for the sake of power can claim their pursuit as noble. It?s especially bothersome considering murder isn?t even the exact requisite.



Za Fuuru said:


> Not the first time but when he came back with Kisame he knew he was going to fight VS Naruto. Probably he was fine with that? Anyway, Sasuke without the mangekyo was fodder. And Itachi knew that Obito existed because he said "there is another mangekyo user". He knew Sasuke had to fight against Obito, soon or later


I guess it comes down to accepting whether the Itachi we were ultimately presented with would knowingly sacrifice a purely innocent life in order to make his brother stronger (while also making him a murderer). Maybe. He butchered his own family after all.



Za Fuuru said:


> I don't know, probably they were going to store Kyuubi somewhere (NOT IN THE GEDO MAZO) so that they could control it with the sharingan and use it to get the other 8?


That?s the paradox. If there was a way to keep Kurama without sealing him then they would have had no reason to leave his jin alone during the time-skip. Jiraiya was no slouch, but the guy couldn?t have stopped the whole group had they decided to nab Naruto.



Za Fuuru said:


> I don't remember what I did when I was at kindergarten, to be honest. You may remember your grandpa because you kept seeing him for some time. Jiraiya didn't live in the village


I didn?t live in the same town as my grandfather either. He would visit from time to time though. You know, so I knew he was alive, that he still gave a shit. I would have expected at least this much from Jay. Maybe write him some letters? He only spends his spare time writing soft-core porn I guess.



Za Fuuru said:


> But we have zero evidence that he NEVER went to visit Naruto when Naruto was 5-6 years old. Honestly it's not an important point, don't overrate it. Anyway, Jiraiya was a bit mad also so it's not out of character


All we have to go by is what?s been shown and we haven?t been shown that. Maybe we?ll get a scene of that later. As of now, it didn?t happen. Yeah, he was presented with questionable character so, no, it?s not farfetched. Just disappointing.



Za Fuuru said:


> Well we don't know how this color thing works, it's not clear. Let's say there are 1 million people in Naruto Universe, I don't think there are 1 million different colors. Maybe Obito had a color similar to other ninjas also, so who knows. It's a bit hard to recognize 1 million colors LOL. I can barely see 16 colors ahahah


On its face, we have a non-Hyuga doing something the clan leader?s daughter couldn?t. There?s countless variables at play so plenty of ways to excuse it, but it?s always something that?s struck me as an oversight.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 27, 2014)

eepdoodle said:


> Itachi wanted to give Sasuke a righteous path to follow, but the means he gave to walk it were corrupt


Nah. Itachi wanted to make him a hero but also he knew Obito-Madara was going to rape him. He needed that fucking mangekyo. We are dealing with fucking GODS here. No joke. Who cares about the village when the world is gonna end. The village is part of the world. If it wasn't for Obito, he would still be with no mangekyo. If he kills Naruto at VotE he gets mangekyo, kills Itachi and would still be a hero. At least not less than he currently is LOL



> If there was a way to keep Kurama without sealing him then they would have had no reason to leave his jin alone during the time-skip


As I said, 16 years ago Obito was alone, Madara was dead and the Kyuubi would have helped a lot in crushing Konoha and recover the other 8 through force. Recently they were in 9, they had an overpowered Nagato etc etc. They didn't need to use Kyuubi in fight. They only need to capture them in order and seal them. They started from Gaara, then the 2 tails etc etc. It's not PERFECT, but it makes sense



> All we have to go by is what?s been shown and we haven?t been shown that. Maybe we?ll get a scene of that later. As of now, it didn?t happen. Yeah, he was presented with questionable character so, no, it?s not farfetched. Just disappointing.


If he didn't show it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's just irrelevant, I don't give a darn about seeing Jiraiya visiting Naruto when he was in kindergarten. Anyway, Jiraiya knew Naruto was fine, because he was in contact with the Hokage. It's not like he knew NOTHING about Naruto. Naruto wasn't all alone, he was inside a village and protected by the Hokage. It's not like he was a homeless LOL. This is nitpicking to be honest


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## eepdoodle (Aug 27, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> If he kills Naruto at VotE he gets mangekyo, kills Itachi and would still be a hero. At least not less than he currently is LOL


Well, he certainly wouldn?t have been a village hero after killing Naruto or any other Konohan. I guess we?ll have to agree to disagree.



Za Fuuru said:


> As I said, 16 years ago Obito was alone, Madara was dead and the Kyuubi would have helped a lot in crushing Konoha and recover the other 8 through force. Recently they were in 9, they had an overpowered Nagato etc etc. They didn't need to use Kyuubi in fight. They only need to capture them in order and seal them. They started from Gaara, then the 2 tails etc etc. It's not PERFECT, but it makes sense


I can pull numerous theories out of the air as well. However, the simple fact though is that Akatsuki HAD to wait to capture Naruto. It wasn?t strategy, it was necessity. If they could have grabbed him first and put QB on ice somehow then they would have.



Za Fuuru said:


> If he didn't show it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's just irrelevant, I don't give a darn about seeing Jiraiya visiting Naruto when he was in kindergarten. Anyway, Jiraiya knew Naruto was fine, because he was in contact with the Hokage. It's not like he knew NOTHING about Naruto. Naruto wasn't all alone, he was inside a village and protected by the Hokage. It's not like he was a homeless LOL. This is nitpicking to be honest


If Naruto being raised alone, never knowing the bond of a parental figure wasn?t a MAJOR element to the premise of this story, then I?d agree to be ?nitpicking?. It?s a quintessential component of the main character?s development though. He was, by his own multiple accounts, friendless and alone. J promised the kid?s parents to be there and wasn?t. Jiraiya The Gallant was anything but. So why not? We weren?t given a reasonable explanation for it.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 27, 2014)

eepdoodle said:


> Well, he certainly wouldn?t have been a village hero after killing Naruto or any other Konohan


He is going to save the world. I think that's a bit more important than saving a single life or a single village. The "becoming a hero" thing was related to killing Itachi, killing Naruto would have been part of his life as a warrior. It's not like you are a hero if you don't kill anyone. They are fucking warriors, not dancers. He needed mangekyo to save the world. Without mangekyo he would be dead at this point.



> If they could have grabbed him first and put QB on ice somehow then they would have.


Obito did it. Either he was going to seal it and use it again or use it to capture the other 8 one after the other. Your point doesn't make much sense, if they don't need Kyuubi's power why risk by getting it at first? Was Nagato able to control the Kyuubi like Obito did? I don't know, anyway they didn't need to RUSH because the situation was completely different compared to 16 years ago. They were NINE, while Obito was alone and couldn't do anything without Kyuubi's help



> If Naruto being raised alone, never knowing the bond of a parental figure wasn?t a MAJOR element to the premise of this story, then I?d agree to be ?nitpicking?. It?s a quintessential component of the main character?s development though. He was, by his own multiple accounts, friendless and alone. J promised the kid?s parents to be there and wasn?t. Jiraiya The Gallant was anything but. So why not? We weren?t given a reasonable explanation for it.



Hey man, this is a fucking battle shonen. Not a shojo. That's irrelevant, who cares about Jiraiya visting Naruto at the kindergarten. Seriously. It's not a plot hole and it's not important either. He visited Naruto for sure, it's likely that he did, but I don't need to watch a 40 pages long shojo-like flashback for such a thing. And BTW he wasn't his father nor his uncle. He was nothing to Naruto. He was not his relative


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## Skull007 (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm not an expert regarding plot-holes but I wanna ask this anyway because what kishi did was disgusting IMO, but maybe there's a sensible explanation and I didn't realize about it

_Why did Kabuto fall into an izanami if he'd never changed his destiny with izanagi?_

I'm not taking a "he was pretending to be someone else" for an answer, because that means the destiny of every single fucking ninja is written in stone and you can't do anything about it


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## Qtekk (Aug 27, 2014)

One plothole would be the kages struggling when they had unlimited chakra.


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## eepdoodle (Aug 27, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> He is going to save the world. I think that's a bit more important than saving a single life or a single village. The "becoming a hero" thing was related to killing Itachi, killing Naruto would have been part of his life as a warrior. It's not like you are a hero if you don't kill anyone. They are fucking warriors, not dancers. He needed mangekyo to save the world. Without mangekyo he would be dead at this point.


Murdering a comrade would not have been overlooked. He?d be labeled a criminal no different than Itachi. If you seriously believe Itachi was expecting his 8 year old brother to ?save the world? then anything else I write on this will most definitely be a wasted effort.



Za Fuuru said:


> Obito did it. Either he was going to seal it and use it again or use it to capture the other 8 one after the other. *Your point doesn't make much sense*, if they don't need Kyuubi's power why risk by getting it at first? Was Nagato able to control the Kyuubi like Obito did? I don't know, anyway they didn't need to RUSH because the situation was completely different compared to 16 years ago. They were NINE, while Obito was alone and couldn't do anything without Kyuubi's help


The concept is very simple. The reason we were given for Naruto?s safety during the time-skip is in direct conflict with the events of the Kyuubi attack. Plain as that. Kishi came up with two different scenarios that don?t agree with each other.



Za Fuuru said:


> Hey man, this is a fucking battle shonen. Not a shojo. That's irrelevant, who cares about Jiraiya visting Naruto at the kindergarten. Seriously. It's not a plot hole and it's not important either. He visited Naruto for sure, it's likely that he did, but I don't need to watch a 40 pages long shojo-like flashback for such a thing. And BTW he wasn't his father nor his uncle. He was nothing to Naruto. He was not his relative


I feel I?ve engaged in a serious conversation with someone who?s only interested in trolling. I?m pretty embarrassed that?ve completely fallen for it. You got me, guy. Good job.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 28, 2014)

Naruto basically detects people by their chakra while he's in Sage Mode. He couldn't sense Kakashi because he was dead. So how come he could sense the corpses of those dead shinobi and the Zetsu clones?


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## Invictus-Kun (Aug 28, 2014)

he can sense someone who is existing...
kakashi had no spirit in his dead body.
Zetsus and Edo Kages had thier spirit inside those edo bodies.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Aug 28, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> he can sense someone who is existing...
> kakashi had no spirit in his dead body.
> Zetsus and Edo Kages had thier spirit inside those edo bodies.



Those panels showing ninjas and White Zetsu corpses on the ground have spirit inside them? If it was about sensing someone who exists, there wouldn't be panels showing corpses on the ground.


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## Shinryu (Aug 28, 2014)

Madara giving Nagato his eyes is by far the most retarded thing I have ever come across in this manga.I dont even know the level of drugs Kishi was on when he made this nonsense.I mean Nagato had two rinnegan eyes so where did they come from? By the time Obito could have given him Madara's eyes they would have rotted away.


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## John Connor (Aug 28, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Madara giving Nagato his eyes is by far the most retarded thing I have ever come across in this manga.I dont even know the level of drugs Kishi was on when he made this nonsense.I mean Nagato had two rinnegan eyes so where did they come from? By the time Obito could have given him Madara's eyes they would have rotted away.


Madara gave Nagato his Rinnegan before Obito was in the picture and important eyes are preserved through ninja science so they wouldnt rot anyways because there are jutsu to stop that


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 28, 2014)

eepdoodle said:


> Murdering a comrade would not have been overlooked. He?d be labeled a criminal no different than Itachi. If you seriously believe Itachi was expecting his 8 year old brother to ?save the world? then anything else I write on this will most definitely be a wasted effort.


So if Naruto kills Sasuke by chance what happens? Naruto becomes a murderer and gets banned from the village? It's a fight, death can happen. It may even be accidental. Being Konoha hero is not more important than killing Madara and save the world. Itachi knew that Sasuke couldn't stand a chance against Madara without mangekyo. Naruto's life is not more important than the whole Shinobi World. Your line of reasoning is severely flawed. Itachi didn't know about Kaguya but he knew about Madara



> The concept is very simple. The reason we were given for Naruto?s safety during the time-skip is in direct conflict with the events of the Kyuubi attack. Plain as that. Kishi came up with two different scenarios that don?t agree with each other.


I told you 3 times. The situations were completely different. You are comparing a non-existent Akatsuki to an Akatsuki lead by an overpowered Nagato and formed by 9 members. I don't know why they should have done the same things if the circumstances were completely different. We know you can't seal the Kyuubi into the Gedo Mazo without having the other 8, but probably Obito's plan was NOT to seal Kyuubi into the Gedo Mazo. He wasn't retarded. Probably he was going to use Kyuubi to start a war (his words "start a war to bring peace") and try to retrieve the other 8. He took advantage of the childbirth which weakened the seal on Kushina's stomach



> I feel I?ve engaged in a serious conversation with someone who?s only interested in trolling. I?m pretty embarrassed that?ve completely fallen for it. You got me, guy. Good job.


Is there an evidence in the manga that Jiraiya NEVER visited Naruto? No, so what the fuck are we talking about? A plot hole without any evidence? Where is the proof that Jiraiya didn't care at all about Naruto? Naruto was a kid, he couldn't remember who visited him. Did your father abandon you when you were a kid?


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## Invictus-Kun (Aug 28, 2014)

Can Orochimaru store something else inside his stomach.


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## eepdoodle (Aug 28, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> So if Naruto kills Sasuke by chance what happens? Naruto becomes a murderer and gets banned from the village? It's a fight, death can happen. It may even be accidental. Being Konoha hero is not more important than killing Madara and save the world. Itachi knew that Sasuke couldn't stand a chance against Madara without mangekyo. Naruto's life is not more important than the whole Shinobi World. Your line of reasoning is severely flawed. Itachi didn't know about Kaguya but he knew about Madara


You can try to change the subject all you want, but I?m speaking specifically to Itachi?s instruction for his 8 year old brother to murder an unknown ?friend?. Such an act would be criminal no matter how you spin it. That?s counter to Itachi?s stated desire for Sasuke. Itachi took steps to protect Sasuke from ?Madara? but never made mention of wanting him to actually fight him or ?save the world?. That?s something you?ve invented on your own in order to manufacture a counter-argument.



Za Fuuru said:


> I told you 3 times. The situations were completely different. You are comparing a non-existent Akatsuki to an Akatsuki lead by an overpowered Nagato and formed by 9 members. I don't know why they should have done the same things if the circumstances were completely different. We know you can't seal the Kyuubi into the Gedo Mazo without having the other 8, but probably Obito's plan was NOT to seal Kyuubi into the Gedo Mazo. He wasn't retarded. Probably he was going to use Kyuubi to start a war (his words "start a war to bring peace") and try to retrieve the other 8. He took advantage of the childbirth which weakened the seal on Kushina's stomach


You seem to be deliberately missing the point. If there was a method of safely containing the Kyuubi after extraction without the GM then the whole premise for leaving Naruto be then immediately evaporates. Either capturing Kurama out of order is a problem or it isn?t. Simple as that.



Za Fuuru said:


> Is there an evidence in the manga that Jiraiya NEVER visited Naruto? No, so what the fuck are we talking about? A plot hole without any evidence? Where is the proof that Jiraiya didn't care at all about Naruto? Naruto was a kid, he couldn't remember who visited him. Did your father abandon you when you were a kid?


Again, the only way you wouldn?t be able to recognize the validity is if you were intentionally deciding not to. After Jiraiya was revealed to be Naruto?s godfather, we received no additional details regarding him honoring this role. There?s a gap in content here. A *hole *in the *plot*. The fact that we?re forced to speculate without certainty is all the evidence needed.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 28, 2014)

eepdoodle said:


> You can try to change the subject all you want, but I?m speaking specifically to Itachi?s instruction for his 8 year old brother to murder an unknown ?friend?.


Now what? Killing Naruto or killing another friend are the same concept.



> Such an act would be criminal no matter how you spin it


Yeah better to get raped by Madara



> That?s counter to Itachi?s stated desire for Sasuke


The situation was complicated, if you don't understand this I don't know what to say. The fact that he wanted to get killed by Sasuke doesn't imply that he didn't want him to get stronger by unlocking mangekyo. You can kill a Konohan, kill Itachi, kill Madara and become a hero. This manga seems too deep for your understanding. You only see black and white. Try to see fucking grey, would you? You know the grey color? This is not Masters of the Universe, it's a bit more complex



> Itachi took steps to protect Sasuke from ?Madara? but never made mention of wanting him to actually fight him or ?save the world?


He wanted him to get stronger because he knew Madara was evil and was strong as hell. He even met Obito and asked him not to touch Sasuke blahblahblah. Obito wanted to slaughter Uchiha's clan. Itachi had to make Sasuke stronger in any way



> That?s something you?ve invented on your own in order to manufacture a counter-argument.


It's on the fucking manga, read it.



> You seem to be deliberately missing the point. If there was a method of safely containing the Kyuubi


I DON'T KNOW IF THERE WAS A METHOD, I never said I'm sure there was a method. Probably there was a method, maybe there was NOT a method. Maybe he wanted to use Kyuubi to get the other 8 one after another, without sealing the Kyuubi. He could control the Kyuubi, so theoretically he could do it. It was hard, but he could try it.



> then the whole premise for leaving Naruto be then immediately evaporates


NO, because catching Kyuubi at last would be better than catching it at first and sealing it anywhere. If you don't need Kyuubi's power to catch the other 8, there is no reason to catch it at first like Obito did. You understand that Obito's situation was completely different than Nagato's? This is the FOURTH time I fucking write the same thing. Enough?



> Again, the only way you wouldn?t be able to recognize the validity is if you were intentionally deciding not to. After Jiraiya was revealed to be Naruto?s godfather, we received no additional details regarding him honoring this role. There?s a gap in content here. A *hole *in the *plot*. The fact that we?re forced to speculate without certainty is all the evidence needed.



A "plot hole" is a PARADOX that cannot be reconciled with any explanation, not something never showed. How many books have you read in your life? You don't even understand what a plot hole is. So not showing a Mizukage or a Raikage would be a plot hole? You are wasting my time. Go read at least two hundred books and then come back talking to me, you don't even have the basics.


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## eepdoodle (Aug 28, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> Now what? Killing Naruto or killing another friend are the same concept.


I don’t recall stating otherwise. Itachi instructed Sasuke to kill his friend at a point in the story where he had none. So any reference to Naruto specifically is irrelevant. His victim could have potentially been anyone in Konoha at that point.



Za Fuuru said:


> The fact that he wanted to get killed by Sasuke doesn't imply that he didn't want him to get stronger by unlocking mangekyo.


Again, I don’t recall stating otherwise. Only that the proposed method (premeditated murder) is inconsistent with his desire for Sasuke to be respected in the village.



Za Fuuru said:


> You can kill a Konohan, kill Itachi, kill Madara and become a hero.


I respectfully disagree. The ninjas of this story are depicted as soldiers in a regimented military system. Konohans are also depicted to be especially reverential of comradeship. The wanton murder of a compatriot wouldn’t have been consequence free. Sasuke would be maligned in the village and killing Itachi wouldn’t change that. Just one criminal killing another.



Za Fuuru said:


> He wanted him to get stronger because he knew Madara was evil and was strong as hell. He even met Obito and asked him not to touch Sasuke blahblahblah. Obito wanted to slaughter Uchiha's clan. Itachi had to make Sasuke stronger in any way


Itachi wishing to secure Sasuke’s safety isn’t in question. Your assertion that he expected his little brother to grow up and one day defeat “Madara” is very questionable however.



Za Fuuru said:


> It's on the fucking manga, read it.


I can guarantee you that ‘Itachi wanting 8 year old Sasuke to develop mangekyo with the intent of battling and defeating “Madara”’ is not in the manga.



Za Fuuru said:


> NO, because catching Kyuubi at last would be better than catching it at first and sealing it anywhere. If you don't need Kyuubi's power to catch the other 8, there is no reason to catch it at first like Obito did. You understand that Obito's situation was completely different than Nagato's? This is the FOURTH time I fucking write the same thing. Enough?


You can write it as many times as you like and it won’t change the fact that it’s entirely irrelevant to the argument. Obito needed Kyuubi. He waited to capture it because he *had to*. If there was an alternative, then that would mean he *didn’t have to*. The information we were given then would be false.


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## Za Fuuru (Aug 28, 2014)

eepdoodle said:


> I don’t recall stating otherwise


You said that at that time Sasuke didn't know Naruto. It's the same thing, not important.



> Itachi instructed Sasuke to kill his friend at a point in the story where he had none


1. It's not "instructed". Itachi didn't give "instructions". That's the wrong term. He said how he unlocked mangekyo and how to unlock mangekyo. He never said "go to kill this and this, these are the orders". It was up to him to decide. It's not like Itachi ORDERED Sasuke to do something
2. The fact that at that time he had no friends (are we sure?) is irrelevant. He would have had them in the future. Sasuke haven't seen Itachi for MANY years.



> So any reference to Naruto specifically is irrelevant. His victim could have potentially been anyone in Konoha at that point


Yeah. Now what? Are you even following the discussion? Or maybe you keep responding for the sake of responding, without having anything to say? You look out of arguments



> Again, I don’t recall stating otherwise. Only that the proposed method (premeditated murder) is inconsistent with his desire for Sasuke to be respected in the village.


Do you know another method to unlock mangekyo? The method he used was to know that Uchiha clan was a load of crap. Itachi didn't want him to know the truth about the COUP d'ETAT



> I respectfully disagree. The ninjas of this story are depicted as soldiers in a regimented military system. Konohans are also depicted to be especially reverential of comradeship. The wanton murder of a compatriot wouldn’t have been consequence free. Sasuke would be maligned in the village and killing Itachi wouldn’t change that. Just one criminal killing another.


1. you kill a Konohan, get mangekyo, kill Itachi, kill Madara, kill Kaguya and save the world
2. you don't kill a Konohan, don't get mangekyo and get killed by Itachi. The world ends

Which is better?



> Itachi wishing to secure Sasuke’s safety isn’t in question. Your assertion that he expected his little brother to grow up and one day defeat “Madara” is very questionable however.


No. Minato gave Kyuubi to Naruto because he expected his son to use Kyuubi's power to beat Madara-Tobi. Itachi wanted his brother to be able to defend himself against Madara and try to stop him



> I can guarantee you that ‘Itachi wanting 8 year old Sasuke to develop mangekyo with the intent of battling and defeating “Madara”’ is not in the manga


It's there, Itachi already met Obito and knew his evil intentions. Obito was representing Madara. Itachi didn't even know that Tobi was not Madara. He knew Madara was immortal



> You can write it as many times as you like and it won’t change the fact that it’s entirely irrelevant to the argument. Obito needed Kyuubi. He waited to capture it because he *had to*. If there was an alternative, then that would mean he *didn’t have to*. The information we were given then would be false.


OK the FIFTH time. Obito didn't wait the first time because his plan was NOT to seal Kyuubi (he couldn't), but to use Kyuubi as an ALLY to get the other 8. TIME SKIP. Akaktsuki is HUGE, there is Nagato with full power Rinnegan, Hidan, Kakuzu etc etc. They have to take the bijuu and SEAL them. They don't need to USE them as weapon (it's a bit risky). So it's OBVIOUS that they started from the first. They didn't need Kyuubi as a weapon, they needed to seal Kyuubi in the Gedo Mazo. Obito did NOT need to seal Kyuubi in the Gedo Mazo. He needed to USE Kyuubi to crush other villages and start a war


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## NO (Aug 29, 2014)

Sorry guys, I got joke-banned by a mod and missed a lot here.

Do we have any plotholes unanimously agreed on? If so, quote the posts and I'll add it.


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## John Connor (Aug 29, 2014)

Foxve said:


> That's exactly what happened. Lee trained for like two or so years and used heavy weights for his speed. Sasuke achieves the same speed in *one month by only copying lee's taijutsu*? Dispite getting his ass handed to him by a weighted Lee a month ago? How is that not an asspull?


Sasuke had a demigod inside him that gave Rikudo chakra


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## Escargon (Aug 29, 2014)

Bahamut Slayer said:


> I don't really remember any panel that shows Obito losing both arms. However, I do remember Obito losing his right arm twice, during his fight against Fu and Torune, then against Konan. Those are from half of his body made of Zetsu as you put it, his right side, so he has no problem replacing it again and again.



Versus Minato, he ripped off his other arm, and it showed traces of both Zetsugoop and blood.

The blood doesnt make much sense as one time Tobi broke his arm, other time he just hit a wall and it turned into Zetsugoop instantly. I guess Kishi doesnt give a darn about this.


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## Memory (Oct 11, 2014)

*Crazy Plotholes.....*

So I've decided to come up with a list of the Plotholes. 

#1. Gai not dying after eighth gate. 
#2. Obito gets friendzoned=4th shinobi war
#3.  Kaguya

I can go on but 2 lazy.  Feel free to list yours.


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