# Sannin vs. Kakashi, Ōnoki, and Ei



## StickaStick (May 11, 2015)

*Distance*: 25m
*Location*: Mads vs Gokage
*Knowledge*: Full for both
*Mindset*: IC; To Kill
*Condtions*: 
- No ET outside of PTI Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama
- Tsunade can summon up to 5% Katsuyu
- Jiraiya starts in SM
- Tsunade starts with her Byakugō released.

This is War-Arc Kakashi (no DMS obviously).


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

Clusterfucks are difficult to analyse. These guys are all around the same level though, and since the Sannin are the ones with the famed teamwork it's likely that they win here.


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## FlamingRain (May 11, 2015)

Is manga knowledge for the Sannin somehow not full knowledge?


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## Rocky (May 12, 2015)

It wouldn't be unless the knowledge is pooled. Orochimaru & Jiraiya don't know War Arc Kakashi, for example.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Why restrict orochimaru? Not fair to restrict his best Jutsu and leave the others unrestricted 

Kakashi has no reason to not off the bat kamui the person he is fighting . So vexingly team Kakashi wins 

Though at the same time jiriaya has no reason not to summon a giant toad on their head . I don't see onoki avoiding that . Kyuubi certainly didn't and kyuubi can actually sense things . 

While kakashi can kamui Escape and A use his speed onoki would be forced to make the toad lighter or something along those lines 

Also giving team kakashi full knowledge is just unfair yet you give the Sannin only manga knowledge 

Unrestrict orochimaru and give full knowledge for both teams and then you would have a match on your hands

As for this match up a restricted Sannin team loose. Unrestricted they would however win 

Their plan of attack should be FCD to disperse the team initally while following up with orochimaru attack , since the Sannin know their team mate Jutsu follow up attacks are far more likely . This could mean onoki dying quickly after he just made bunta super light , with oro coming underground with a kusanagi 

Tsunade sets up remote healing though she can easily be picked off by kakashi , or kakashi could pick off any other Sannin really while they are attacking onoki . 

A could do the same less effectively . Depends on kakashi willingness to use Kamui with the kind of back up he has 

Perhaps to prevent this all Sannin should summon off the bat giving the other team huge targets to focus on . Oro has been known to hide in his summon so coming to close to that summon could allow a successful ambush attack 

Really tough match .


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## Sorin (May 12, 2015)

Team 2 with medium difficulty. I would argue the other way if you didn't give Kakashi of all people full knowledge. He doesn't need extensive teamwork experience. I would argue the 7 swordsmen had way better teamwork that the whole of third division. Kakashi used his men's abilities flawlessly in the spur of the moment. 

He didn't have teamwork with Naruto and Sasuke when they brought down Kaguya. And before people bring part 1, i mean that Kakashi has never fought with both of them at the same time while they had Kamui, rinnegan and all the crap Naruto had. Yet, he devised a plan involving all 3 of them and the rest is history.

So yeah, full knowledge on the Sanin for Kakashi means game over. And it's not like Kakashi, Onoki and A are fodder. You could argue that they are at the same level and even stronger individually.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Yes you could argue that though team kakashi only win because it's skewed in their favor 
Full knowledge plus orochimaru is restricted 

To me team Sannin first move would be to try take out kakashi while team kakashi first move would be to take out tsunade . Kakashi is obviously the brains of his team and the one with the most dangerous jutsu . So throwing large summons in his face if he doesn't use kamui off the bat is a good way to prevent him from being a threat 

Bar kamui he is by far the weakest . So making kamui unlikely to use due to large summons coming at him would be a way to neutralize him


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (May 12, 2015)

War arc Kakashi with full knowledge? 

It's a stomp for team two. Give manga knowledge to both teams and it's a much better fight. Team two probably wins by a hair... but it would be much closer and more interesting.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 12, 2015)

Onoki and Ay chops Base Jiraiya head off in instant, Jinton and Kamui take the other 2.

Team 2 stomps and it's not even close.


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## Sorin (May 12, 2015)

Well tbf, if you don't restrict ET, Orochimaru could take on the entire alliance. Other than that i'm not sure what is restricted here. 

The only advantage the OP gave to team 2 is full knowledge and they have Kakashi. Admittedly that's enough to tip the odds way in their favour. 

And i'd argue that base Kakashi can fight anyone of the sanin bar SM Jiraya. Not win but fight on equal footing for some time. his speed and sharingan gives him a fair chance. Sure he'd eventually lose to all of them but he's not fodder to them from he get go.

Edit: Forgot what Onoki and A are capable of lol. They can't hope to react and evade that kind of speed. And with Kakashi in the background this is seriously a one way battle.


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## Mercurial (May 12, 2015)

Team 2 rapes. Either one is definitely stronger than the opponents, they can't do nothing to avoid Kakashi to GG them with Kamui nor cut straight their lines with Raikiri or Raiden, they can't stop Ei's speed blitz with Raiton Chakra Mode because their reactions and physical speed don't come even close, they can't fight Jinton because they lack the speed or the hax to do it. Katsuyu it's not a problem, it's not going to be even remotely a problem for speedsters as Ei and Kakashi, nor for a flying character like Onoki; Kakashi can fry his water-made body with Raiju Hashiri, Onoki can atomize it with "rolling" Jinton. Kakashi solos them with Kamui spam, he has definitely show the feats to warp two of them one after another, or simply with a quick giant warp, then fight and defeat the third with clone feints and other jutsu tricks, cleverness and versatility, speed + Sharingan precognition, unblockable Raiton piercing and cutting attacks. Onoki + Ei also would solo this, neither Jiraiya nor Tsunade can defend themselves from the backpack combo nor survive that (Ei could cut Tsunade's head off with his Raikiri-like punch that cut Hachibi's horn) and then Onoki will Jinton Orochimaru while Ei is kicking his ass.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Raiden is useless against Orochimaru though 
Why bring it up 

Also FCD is a summon so it's jnstant as well . Why one earth would one assume jiriaya can be snipped before the toad crushes kakashi

We saw kamui performance against summoning . It only managed to wrap gedo arm meanwhile kakashi was trying to wrap the whole thing 

So here once the match starts 3 summons pop up kamui GG off the bat isn't happening. Katsuyu and manda can survive a chunk of them being taken off with kamui . Manda sheds , and katsuyu splits . Bunta appears above kakashi basically ensuring if kakashi snipes jiriaya he died under bunta foot 

Even Kcm naruto uses FCD on the fly no reason jiriaya can't open with that . Considering it's a default team Sannin opening move . 

Anywayz everyone has their opinion . I just gotta  when I hear kakashi can take 2 Sannin by himself . It's a little funny


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## Ghost (May 12, 2015)

Sannin get stomped. Ei immediately kills either Tsunade or Jiraiya while Kakashi Kamuis one. Then they rape fleeing Oro.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Really since when were the Sannin that weak ?
What A was impressed about was dodging his fastest punch he said nothin about reacting to it 
I don't see why on earth jiriaya or tsunade can't summon before A punches them . Or how A punches through jiriaya steel like hair when sakura who hits harder failed to break iron sand structures with her punch 

But I guess the jiriaya and oro feats are too far back for most to remember that's prolly why 

it's silly to think A can move from A to B before any Sannin fan form 1 seal to perform a summon . Unless their hand seal speed is super slow


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## Sorin (May 12, 2015)

From the get go no. They probably can't blitz. They are all going to make their moves. After Onoki hops on A's back though...


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## Legendary Itachi (May 12, 2015)

What the fuck can summon do here when Onoki trolls it easily with the weight jutsu or just fly and troll the summoner.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

@legendary itachi 
Maybe landing on onoki for example FCD 
Kyuubi didn't avoid it despite being a sensor so it's not like it's some fodder Jutsu 
Onoki will light weight it but that leaves him open to a follow up attack so it's not as easy as onoki trolls with Jinton 

Also considering the distance gamaken and Bunta have been shown to jump no reason Jinton hits 

gamakichi jumped over 100 boss size juubiling and got to the juubi 

Bunta should be able to do the same 

Btw that one jump horribly outdoes Jinton AoE by very far 

Manda sheds and goes underground 

Katsuyu unless it's entire body is within Jinton IT survives while laughing 

So no Jinton isn't an auto end to the Sannin 

Also sanju rashomon will disperse the attack before you argue read what it does .

As for heavy weight Jutsu that only works on bunta . Manda barfs itself out , katsuyu splits . 
Not saying summons can beat onoki but onoki isn't trolling them cadually without leaving himself open to the summoner attack


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 12, 2015)

Team 2 wins the sannin cannot handle the one-shots.

Kakashi snipes tsunade upper half off and A sticks his arm through jiraiya's neck after a short chase leaving the restricted oro all alone to get chased down and jinton eventually. I do not buy tsunade and jiraiya summoning animals to somehow stop A and kakashi's trumps(when they don't even got full knowledge while team 2 does) before war arc kamui and max shunshin A happen(two techs that sit up near the pinnacle of top tier speed).


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Team 2 wins the sannin cannot handle the one-shots.
> 
> Kakashi snipes tsunade upper half off and A sticks his arm through jiraiya's neck leaving the restricted oro all alone to get chased down and jinton eventually. I do not buy tsunade and jiraiya summoning animals to somehow stop A and kakashi's trumps(when they don't even got full knowledge while team 2 does) before war arc kamui and max shunshin A(two techs that sit up near the pinnacle of top tier speed).



Summoning also sits up the top tier of speed 
And why on earth would you assume kakahsi with backup uses kamui off the bat and A who isn't bloodlusted uses max speed off the bat when he didn't even do so against sasuke who he thought killed his brother 

It's simple if u want to assume kakashi and A start with their fastest Jutsu then so would tsunade and jiriaya 

The knowledge difference here doesn't make jiriaya or tsunade forget the opening move when fighting in team setting . Even the new gen Sannin once they decided to use team work opted to use their summons off the bat . It's obvious from the get go tsunade will summon to use remote healing to support her team . The others knowing this will use their summons 

Remmember team Sannin got the better team work and know each other Jutsu .

tsunade is the most likely target of team 2 attack since she is afterall the medical ninja in said team. kakashi will know this. I strongly doubt kakashi will have A rushing in when he got full knowledge of the sannin. A could rush straight into toad gourd prison and be out of the match for good. 

The most likely course of action is kakashi attempting a kamui while A waits for that attack and follows up depending on how the sannin react. 

Since they will use summons to at least prevent kamui GG. I doubt again kakashi will then have A rush in just to get himself stopped. Easier to follow said attack with onoki jinton 

maybe am reading too much into it but kakashi is smart enough to not have his team blindly run into obvious traps. i.e toad gourd prison or jiriaya silhouette technique, or be bound by snakes after hitting orochimaru 

note: A was impressed with both KCm Naruto and minato avoiding his attack not reacting to it. Killer bee also expressed the same surprise when sasuke avoided his 3 tails attack. Avoiding takes a lot more speed and better reactions than to simply block or summon

despite the speed gap between HM jiriaya and animal path as well as their respective reactions and jiriaya using his fastest possible HM jutsu. hair needle barrage
Animal path using a simple summon was enough to block jiriaya fastest attack

I doubt the speed and reaction gap between A and all the sannin vastly exceeds the speed and reaction gap between HM and animal path


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Summoning also sits up the top tier of speed


Dude kamui could take a piece of a summoning getting transported through instant summoning. Forming a hand seal and then slamming it to the ground to summon is not fucking with that feat in speed. 


> And why on earth would you assume kakahsi with backup uses kamui off the bat and A who isn't bloodlusted uses max speed off the bat when he didn't even do so against sasuke who he thought killed his brother


Because they have full knowledge on them and that is the most effective way(and smartest) to kill these guys. A used his max shunshin out the gate against madara because he knew the threat he posed he didn't have to be bloodlusted. Kakashi spammed kamui with the army of shinobi backing him because it was best thing to do.



> It's simple if u want to assume kakashi and A start with their fastest Jutsu then so would tsunade and jiriaya


Even if they did they still lose in a speed battle.



> The knowledge difference here doesn't make jiriaya or tsunade forget the opening move when fighting in team setting . Even the new gen Sannin once they decided to use team work opted to use their summons off the bat . It's obvious from the get go tsunade will summon to use remote healing to support her team . The others knowing this will use their summons
> 
> Remmember team Sannin got the better team work and know each other Jutsu .


They won't get to do anything going off feats of kamui and A's shunshin. Even if they did when A starts flying around at V2+lightened speed only slowing down to knock the shit out of whoever is near him with super weighted blows it still goes downhill for team sannin. Kakashi also got multiple kamui's.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Dude kamui could take a piece of a summoning getting transported through instant summoning. Forming a hand seal and then slamming it to the ground to summon is not fucking with that feat in speed.



they don't need to slam to the ground though. also orochimaru doesn't need to form seals. he already has the seal up his sleeve. do go back to part 1 if you don't know what am talking about 
yes it took the arm off a summoning while aiming for the entire thing. which is my point. the summon jutsu which is instant was still fast enough to get gedo out of there. 

also summon has been shown more than once to require just 1 hand seal



> Because they have full knowledge on them and that is the most effective way(and smartest) to kill these guys. A used his max shunshin out the gate against madara because he knew the threat he posed he didn't have to be bloodlusted. Kakashi spammed kamui with the army of shinobi backing him because it was best thing to do.



ok and the sannin are fighting in a team default is summoning. so they will summon. even without full knowledge. makes no sense for tsunade not to opt for remote healing in a team setting


> Even if they did they still lose in a speed battle.



kamui lost in a speed battle against gedo being summoned 



> They won't get to do anything going off feats of kamui and A's shunshin. Even if they did when A starts flying around at V2+lightened speed only slowing down to knock the shit out of whoever is near him with super weighted blows it still goes downhill for team sannin. Kakashi also got multiple kamui's.



A isn't amping up and onoki isn't getting on his back quicker than any sannin can summon. 
kamui again failed to wrap gedo mazo completely showing its slower than summoning which is instant 

also mind showing me the hand seals for FCD, cuz Naruto, jiriaya and minato have all used said jutsu no hand seals required .

kakashi got multiple kamui true. however if the sannin pull of their summoning, clones, and distractions make kamui a moot point. if it isn't used off the bat. no sannin who knows how to use clones wont be using it in this match up

remember they got manga knowledge here its not a no knowledge vs full knowledge scenario


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## Alex Payne (May 12, 2015)

Jiraiya starting in base is too much of a disadvantage for his team. Raikage's speed, Onoki's mobility+Jinton and Kakashi's Kamui are available from the get go. Either Jiraiya runs away while his teammates get murdered or tries to fight in Base and gets quickly killed due to being the weakest here. Full knowledge for Team Kakashi seals the deal.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

@Alex jinton AoE is much much smaller than the distance bunta can cover in 1 jump though. 
gamakichi jumped through 100's of juublings which were boss sized and got to juubi

he did so in 1 jump. jinton AoE isn't hitting bunta if he makes a jump for it. the distance they can cover is ridiculous 

can post a link if you want. 

so jiriaya isn't some push over here

though would be more balanced if it was full knowledge for both teams


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2015)

A can potentially solo.
Throwing in Onoki and Kakashi makes this an ungodly stomp. And Full knowledge for team A on top of that 

Team A via no - low dif.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (May 12, 2015)

Hahaha... arguing that summons are faster than Kamui. 

Do people read the manga before they come here? Kamui GG... love it or hate it... exists for a reason. It's basically instant. It allows Kakashi to win battledome fights that he couldn't or would barely win without it.

He warped Naruto's entire body faster than the blink of an eye. It was so fast it fooled one of the best Sharingan users in the manga that it was just a disappearing clone. It stopped Pain's nail and Sasuke's arrow instantly. Two incredibly fast attacks. It devoured Deidara's explosion when he was just getting the hang of the technique. It stopped Kaguya's portal spike before Naruto AND Sasuke moved an *inch* in real time... going FULL SPEED.

You're also wrong about him attempting to Kamui the entire Gedo summon. He was aiming for it's head and it hit its arm. An arm that is much... much larger than all of the Sannin's summons by the way. Even if they did get the summon's off... a fully rested Kakashi would have no trouble warping all of them away and still having enough energy to fight. 

This is war arc Kakashi. Not Part 1 Kakashi.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Hahaha... arguing that summons are faster than Kamui.
> 
> Do people read the manga before they come here? Kamui GG... love it or hate it... exists for a reason. It's basically instant. It allows Kakashi to win battledome fights that he couldn't or would barely win without it.
> 
> ...



oh your one of those who fail to read

summons aren't faster than kamui. no one ever said that. the act of summoning is. gedo being summoned partially avoided kamui because it was faster than the kamui wrap

so using summons to shielf themselves works just fine. its like everyone assumes the sannin will wait for kakashi to attack then attack. this isn't pokemon. 

if it was a race all the summoners need to do is 1 seal and the summon instantly appears. that's faster than kamui. 

he hit the arm because it was summoned away so all he could get was the arm. hence summoning is faster. 


 hahahahahaaaha omg!!! gedo arm is larger than a boss summon, scans show the exact opposite 

summons are the same size as gedo mazo though.  so at best kakashi takes out a portion of katsuyu or manda 

while bunta drops on his head. FCD is also a summoning btw. 

the only reason its debatable is kakashi has shown better reactions. kamui isn't instant summoning is and has always been. that's the basis of hirashin, he is summoning himself to a location. 

notice doing that avoided kamui mid wrap from obito.


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## StickaStick (May 12, 2015)

Edited the conditions to try and even it up.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Perfect Susano'o

that is clearly bigger than gedo arm. 

thanks for evening the sides up

the sannin take it  high diff

I still think all sannin summon off the bat. Team effort and all, also that being the whole sannin hype as well. 

as shown in the link above FCD can be casually used, no seals to speak off. so I don't see kakashi taking them out only to get himself killed. What knowledge does kakashi have on his team members though? that's important. does he know onoki can deal with FCD pretty easily? if he does then that shouldn't stop him and he will proceed with kamui

none of them have the speed to avoid it so ill never mention such however nothing stops either orochimaru or tsunade from summoning. so kamui would most likely take a chunk out of either katsuyu or manda. with not much consequence 

upon seeing such a haxx jutsu no sannin in their right mind would ever stay within kakashi LOS. 

A coming for sage jiriaya full speed, means he is getting himself frog called and giant rasengan'd to the face so I hope he doesn't choose to do that. since its sound as well its omnidirectional 

though I see him more likely going for tsunade, same for kakashi and his kamui. taking out tsunade would be the team priority 

kakashi focus will be on tsunade
A is more likely to focus on jiriaya
and onoki will pick on orochimaru 

could go either way really when I think more about it but its far from a stomp. also note if orochimaru gets ET out even if he is dead they are still very much operational


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (May 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oh your one of those who fail to read
> 
> summons aren't faster than kamui. no one ever said that. the act of summoning is. gedo being summoned partially avoided kamui because it was faster than the kamui wrap
> 
> ...



The act of summoning is not faster. Most of the Kamui examples I listed were far faster than even a single hand movement. Unless you think that the Sannin can summon faster than the blink of an eye... I bet you do, judging by your posts.

I don't even know why you're assuming they would even use their summons off the bat with manga knowledge. They never use their summons right away. You're talking like Kamui off the bat is out of character? At least it's actually happened (against Tobi, for example). When have the Sannin ever started off with a summon? This is Kakashi with full knowledge. It's perfectly reasonable to expect him to go for Kamui knowing his opponents here. Now that the Sannin have full knowledge... sure, they might go for the bosses right away now. But again... not fast enough for Kamui. It's not even a debate... Kamui is factually faster than 99.9% of actions in the manga by the end of the series. 

It might as well be instant for almost every opponent in the Naruto universe. The Kamui on Naruto's clone and the Kamui on Kaguya's dimensional attack are all the evidence you need to see that Kamui is taking out at least one Sannin right out of the gate here.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> The act of summoning is not faster. Most of the Kamui examples I listed were far faster than even a single hand movement. Unless you think that the Sannin can summon faster than the blink of an eye... I bet you do, judging by your posts.



gedo head wasn't removed. summoning vs kamui right there. try again 



> I don't even know why you're assuming they would even use their summons off the bat with manga knowledge. They never use their summons right away. You're talking like Kamui off the bat is out of character? At least it's actually happened (against Tobi, for example). When have the Sannin ever started off with a summon? This is Kakashi with full knowledge. It's perfectly reasonable to expect him to go for Kamui knowing his opponents here. Now that the Sannin have full knowledge... sure, they might go for the bosses right away now. But again... not fast enough for Kamui. It's not even a debate... Kamui is factually faster than 99.9% of actions in the manga by the end of the series.



the same reason you assume kakashi uses kamui off the bat when he got A and onoki as support. tell me when has kakashi used kamui off the bat when not fighting obito? 
ill wait. he didn't use it against deva, didn't use it on the swordsmen didn't use in on the jin's so if u want to assume he uses kamui off the bat then they summon off the bat. its that simple



> It might as well be instant for almost every opponent in the Naruto universe. The Kamui on Naruto's clone and the Kamui on Kaguya's dimensional attack are all the evidence you need to see that Kamui is taking out at least one Sannin right out of the gate here.



its still slower than summoning. again from the point where the summoner forms 1 seal the summon is already there. if this wasn't the case, gedo would have lost its head. 

kaguya dimensional attack was DMS kakashi. not MS kakashi, I don't see how u can bring up somepone with So6P chakra and compare it to someone without. nice try though


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2015)

With the new conditions, I'd say team A will still wins with low-mid difficulty.

Both Jinton and Kamui can make short work of tsunade(kamui can just put her in Kakashi's pocket dimension and Jinton can simply erase her whole body), A can basically mow down Jiraiya like grass whether he is in SM or not, given Jiraiya can't do anything about V2 A and he is certainly not more durable than RibCage Susano'o, and Orochimaru can be gang raped afterwards.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (May 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> its still slower than summoning.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

yup It is 
want the gedo vs kamui scan again 
cuz kakashi wasn't aiming for the arm which you  exaggerated to be larger than boss summons 
need  a scan showing the contrary or you just gonna keep makig stuff up


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (May 12, 2015)

[YOUTUBE]VteUqEuiQIU[/YOUTUBE]


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## Mercurial (May 12, 2015)

The funny thing that the summoning issue is non sense to begin with. Summoning maybe faster, slower, as fast than long range Kamui warp, let's say we don't care. Funny thing, is that one has to react to Kamui warp and summon then, before Kamui warp is completed. No one here is even reacting to Kamui warp. Obito with full knowledge and far better reflexes and vision they may dream to have couldn't see an entire human body warped in front of his eyes. KCM Minato couldn't see if Kakashi did warp the entire Gedo Mazo or not or what the fuck happened. And yet people who are slow as nails in comparison, both in reflexes and body speed, should be able not only to react and process what to do but also to do it. Good fanfiction.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> The funny thing that the summoning issue is non sense to begin with. Summoning maybe faster, slower, as fast than long range Kamui warp, let's say we don't care. Funny thing, is that one has to react to Kamui warp and summon then, before Kamui warp is completed. No one here is even reacting to Kamui warp. Obito with full knowledge and far better reflexes and vision they may dream to have couldn't see an entire human body warped in front of his eyes. KCM Minato couldn't see if Kakashi did warp the entire Gedo Mazo or not or what the fuck happened. And yet people who are slow as nails in comparison, both in reflexes and body speed, should be able not only to react and process what to do but also to do it. Good fanfiction.



why must one react to kamui. who says kakashi attacks first or gets first dibs?
 that's fan fic right there don't you think? 

so till u can prove kakashi will act before they do you got nothing but air....and empty lines

at least you didn't go into claiming summoning which has been emphasized as instant is somehow slow. you sir have improved


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## Mercurial (May 12, 2015)

Lol. I have to prove nothing. Manga proves me.



Prove you to me that Jiraiya, Orochimaru or Tsunade have attacked even remotely as fast, when Minato of all people (yeah Minato didn't have an arm, not a problem at all when he could use KCM to make chakra arms and still use all his jutsu with Hiraishin, Rasengan and so on) couldn't to anything other that ask Kakashi if he could do something (and gaining Madara's sincere praise with the feat). Throw in Onoki and Ei on Kakashi's side. It's a rape.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Lol. I have to prove nothing. Manga proves me.
> 
> 
> 
> Prove you to me that Jiraiya, Orochimaru or Tsunade have attacked even remotely as fast, when Minato of all people (yeah Minato didn't have an arm, not a problem at all when he could use KCM to make chakra arms and still use all his jutsu with Hiraishin, Rasengan and so on) couldn't to anything other that ask Kakashi if he could do something (and gaining Madara's sincere praise with the feat). Throw in Onoki and Ei on Kakashi's side. It's a rape.



  omg
what is minato rasengan supposed to do 

do tell me sir. please humour me

who has the better technique to get rid of a giant target kakakshi or minato. the answer is kakashi so why would minato attempt anything? hence him asking kakashi to kamui it. which he tried to do and only got the arm because summoning is faster than kamui. 

 

again your empty scan shows him using kamui on a target not even looking or concerned about kakashi and doesn't answer my question 

what proof is there that kakashi attacks first. are the sannin playing on counter attack. why are they not attacking the second they see kakashi? or in ur fan fic must they wait for lord kakashi?

jiriaya in that situation not that it would do much could have decided to use FCD and drop bunta on gedo to no avail. the others can summon but again I am not saying they can attack kakashi quicker than he can attack them or that their attack is quicker than kakashi's. 

I am saying all they have to do is summon infront of them to not be trolled by kamui which they can do

all sannin during that time kakashi and minato were having a chat can summon. now the summon would be useless against gedo but they would still be able to summon


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## Turrin (May 12, 2015)

SM-Jiraiya is beating anyone on the opposing team much more often than not, with his biggest threat being Onoki, but he still should win more times overall. Orochimaru is also beating both Ei and Kakashi, more often than not especially with Edo's [even despite them being P1]. Tsunade, assuming War-Arc Byakugo supplies, is the only one who I feel the members of the other team have better odds at winning than she does, though she could still pull it out especially against Ei, it's just that conditions and enemies are bad for her.

So basically we'll have more often than not SM-Jiriaya, Orochimaru, and potentially Edos versus whoever is left, and that is a stomp.  The Sannin take this with around High-diff more times than not. Granted if everything goes perfectly for Team 2, they could win, if Onoki goes up against Orochimaru, and wins, and EI or Kakashi beats Tsunade, leaving SM-Jiriaya to face two of them alone. However in the best case scenario where Tsunade has 2.5 Years Byakugo supply the Sannin take it with Low-Diff if not outright stomp.


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## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

Ei alone can give them a hell of a fight. With Kakashi's speed and Kamui, Onoki's Jinton, the team slaughter stomps.


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## Rocky (May 14, 2015)

The Sannin working together would no diff A.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

Replace Minato with Sannin and 1 of them dies off the bat, perhaps with the exception of Orochimaru unless A decapitates him or some shit.

But A can take out Jiraiya or Tsunade right from the start and I don't see them no diffiing A from that point on.


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## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Sannin working together would no diff A.



They cant compete with Ei's V2 speed.


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

Or A runs into toad gourd prison and looses because he can't escape 
No reason jiriaya can't use 1 summon . Again A is impressed by being able to avoid his Max speed not react to it 
Which is far easier 

Sasuke could still react to it . I dont know why jieiaya would be unable to use 1 summon to drag A in. Which doesn't help A as he is running full speed into it


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## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Or A runs into toad gourd prison and looses because he can't escape
> No reason jiriaya can't use 1 summon . Again A is impressed by being able to avoid his Max speed not react to it
> Which is far easier
> 
> Sasuke could still react to it . I dont know why jieiaya would be unable to use 1 summon to drag A in. Which doesn't help A as he is running full speed into it



Or Ei speedblitz Jiraya before he can make Toad Prison. Or at the moment when Jiraya summons Toad.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Replace Minato with Sannin and 1 of them dies off the bat, perhaps with the exception of Orochimaru unless A decapitates him or some shit.
> 
> But A can take out Jiraiya or Tsunade right from the start and I don't see them no diffiing A from that point on.



The only Sannin Minato could take down quickly is Jiriaya as the other two can regenerate through all of his attacks. However Incidentally Jiraiya has knowledge of Minato's speed and mechanics of FTG, so he is unlikely to allow Minato to get a Kunai near him easily, and it's just plain not happening with all the Sannin there to defend, same thing with Ei, but even more so.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The only Sannin Minato could take down quickly is Jiriaya as the other two can regenerate through all of his attacks. However Incidentally Jiraiya has knowledge of Minato's speed and mechanics of FTG, so he is unlikely to allow Minato to get a Kunai near him easily, and it's just plain not happening with all the Sannin there to defend, same thing with Ei, but even more so.



I was talking about A vs Sannin. Imagine if its Tsunade or Jiraiya in Minato's place, either of them is going to die off the bat.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I was talking about A vs Sannin. Imagine if its Tsunade or Jiraiya in Minato's place, either of them is going to die off the bat.


No they aren't. Tsunade would take Ei's punch and regenerate with Byakugo. In-fact in the Tsunade scenario Ei most likely dies as he thinks he's killed Tsunade to only get super-punched in the face and the shit beaten out of him from there. Jiraiya survived Tsunade punch sending him flying 200meters and being attacked by KN4, so he would survive Ei's punch as well. Now what condition Jiraiya would be in, IDk. 

But Tsunade or Jiraiya being in Minato's situation is highly unlikely anyway.

Edit: And if it's against all three Sannin, than even if Ei is lucky enough to launch his attack against Jiraiya first. Jiraiya survives and Tsunade heals him and than the Sannin stomp from there.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No they aren't. Tsunade would take Ei's punch and regenerate with Byakugo. In-fact in the Tsunade scenario Ei most likely dies as he thinks he's killed Tsunade to only get super-punched in the face and the shit beaten out of him from there. Jiraiya survived Tsunade punch sending him flying 200meters and being attacked by KN4, so he would survive Ei's punch as well. Now what condition Jiraiya would be in, IDk.


If the fight goes just as it went against Minato, Tsunade will be hit before she can activate Byakugou. Why would she activate Byakugou as soon as the fight starts ?

And no, Jiraiya isn't surviving A's punch, who broke through ribcage Susano'o and punched through multiple layers of CS armor, the same armor Juugo used to casually deflect Zabuza's cleaver.



> But Tsunade or Jiraiya being in Minato's situation is highly unlikely anyway.


Why not ? 



> Edit: And if it's against all three Sannin, than even if Ei is lucky enough to launch his attack against Jiraiya first. Jiraiya survives and Tsunade heals him and than the Sannin stomp from there.


Why would A be lucky enough to launch his attack ? He did it against Minato, someone fuckloads faster than the Sannin.

Again no, Jiraiya isn't surviving a regular punch from A, let alone a punch with the momentum of V2 shunshin. A basically punches through him like a cardboard.
Tsunade would consider herself lucky if she can recognize Jiraiya's corpse.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If the fight goes just as it went against Minato, Tsunade will be hit before she can activate Byakugou.


Okay and than she activates Byakugo to recover from the damage. She isn't dying from one punch.



> And no, Jiraiya isn't surviving A's punch, who broke through ribcage Susano'o and punched through multiple layers of CS armor, the same armor Juugo used to casually deflect Zabuza's cleaver.


Tsunade is stated to be stronger, and he survived Tsunade's punch. Also hitting someone 200m is way beyond anything Ei ever showed. 



> Why not ?


Ei isn't likely to start with R2. Most matches don't start at that close of range. Even against Minato, Minato had time to throw one Kunai, talk, than scatter more Kunai, so chances are they would get a Jutsu in before Ei attempted to blitz them.



> Why would A be lucky enough to launch his attack ? He did it against Minato, someone fuckloads faster than the Sannin.


I said against Jiraiya. Basically he has a 2 in 3 shot of hitting Oro or Tsunade, and a 1 in 3 chance of hitting J-man. So he needs to be lucky to hit J-man over one of the other two.



> Again no, Jiraiya isn't surviving a regular punch from A, let alone a punch with the momentum of V2 shunshin. A basically punches through him like a cardboard.
> Tsunade would consider herself lucky if she can recognize Jiraiya's corpse.


Jiraiya is just that durable.


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

> Tsunade would take Ei's punch and regenerate with Byakugo.



He can cut her head off with his Chop. 



> Jiraiya survived Tsunade punch sending him flying 200meters and being attacked by KN4, so he would survive Ei's punch as well. Now what condition Jiraiya would be in, IDk.



He can send him flying away the same way he sent Jugo. Or Liger Bomb him and hit Jiraya with few chops after that. 



> And if it's against all three Sannin, than even if Ei is lucky enough to launch his attack against Jiraiya first. Jiraiya survives and Tsunade heals him and than the Sannin stomp from there.



He can speedblitz them around. They cannot operate on a speed level of Raikage's V2. Tsunade is gonna be the first victim, Jiraya is gonna be the second - Raikage can dodge any of his attacks and hit him with barrage of Raiton-enchanced attacks. Or Liger Bomb Jiraya and then send few chops to his head. But can he beat Orochimaru after that - is a good quastion. So yeah - Raikage alone can give Sannin a hell of a fight. It wont be a stomp in any way.



> Ei isn't likely to start with R2. Most matches don't start at that close of range. Even against Minato, Minato had time to throw one Kunai, talk, than scatter more Kunai, so chances are they would get a Jutsu in before Ei attempted to blitz them.



Without V2, against 3 Sannin? Raikage is not stupid enough to go against 3 of them at once without V2.


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

What are the odds of AY using a linear chop on his first attack ? Very low odds. If Tsuande survives the first attack, she activates Byakago, KATSUYU armors up and murders Ay. Chakra to the feet method, or a FRS level ground shockwave lead to Ay's death.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> KATSUYU armors up and murders Ay. Chakra to the feet method, or a FRS level ground shockwave lead to Ay's death.



None of this stuff would beat him.

For that to happen, Tsunade would need to punch him (likely more than once), and hitting him isn't going to be easy in the first place. It'd be a long, tiring battle, and probably be determined by how many chakra Tsunade has stored away.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 15, 2015)

Team 2 has this one more times than not.

Any of their summons are atomized with Jinton or turned into sitting ducks via weight manipulation, and the former is also quite a good way of eliminating Orochimaru/Tsunade - assuming it connects - so that's always an option. Ei and Kakashi can play around with any of them while Oonoki goes to town, in which case they get overwhelmed eventually. If Kakashi manages to warp Ni Dai Sennin with Kamui, Sannin stand absolutely no chance of winning.


EDIT: I might change my mind about this fight, actually. Bringer of Darkness could be a factor. 
Didn't realize ET was unrestricted.


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> None of this stuff would beat him.
> 
> For that to happen, Tsunade would need to punch him (likely more than once), and hitting him isn't going to be easy in the first place. It'd be a long, tiring battle, and probably be determined by how many chakra Tsunade has stored away.



Of course chakra to the feet method wouldn't kill him lol it's not even lethal...  But chakra to the feet gives Tsuande the ability to strike in response. Which is really my only point.

Ground pounds send human+ Juubi clones flying like bullets. It also can be used to create openings. 

She also doesn't need more than one punch ? A single punch digs deeply into Madaras Sussano which is already far more durable than Ay himself. She would punch through Ay, and her kick would turn him into meat chunks.


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> What are the odds of AY using a linear chop on his first attack ? Very low odds. If Tsuande survives the first attack, she activates Byakago, KATSUYU armors up and murders Ay. Chakra to the feet method, or a FRS level ground shockwave lead to Ay's death.



He knows about Tsunade's healing abilities. And she is the only medical ninja among the Sannin. So i dont think the odds are low.


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

> Of course chakra to the feet method wouldn't kill him lol it's not even lethal... But chakra to the feet gives Tsuande the ability to strike in response. Which is really my only point.
> 
> Ground pounds send human+ Juubi clones flying like bullets. It also can be used to create openings.
> 
> She also doesn't need more than one punch ? A single punch digs deeply into Madaras Sussano which is already far more durable than Ay himself. She would punch through Ay, and her kick would turn him into meat chunks.



That "ground pound" was Sakura's ground pound and she is stronger than Tsunade. Tsunade cant react to V2 speed. Raikage can easily chop her head off before she can punch the earth, or do anything else.


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He knows about Tsunade's healing abilities. And she is the only medical ninja among the Sannin. So i dont think the odds are low.



It's still debatable. Ay doesn't necessarily fight tactically all the time considering he rushed an MS user like sasuke without a plan and in V1.


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> That "ground pound" was Sakura's ground pound and she is stronger than Tsunade. Tsunade cant react to V2 speed. Raikage can easily chop her head off before she can punch the earth, or do anything else.



Why is sakura stronger than Tsuande? Tsuande actually has immense physical strength as well as chakra enhanced strength unlike sakura. They are definitely close.

Katsuyu armor would negate bladed attacks, and considering Tsuande can strike just as fast as Ay, all she has to do is strike in immediate response to his attack.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> But chakra to the feet gives Tsuande the ability to strike in response. Which is really my only point.



The might catch A off guard once, but it isn't going to be that effective over the course of the fight. Tsunade doesn't actually posses the ability to block A once he starts switching to lightning chops. She's just going to get cut in half. 



> Ground pounds send human+ Juubi clones flying like bullets. It also can be used to create openings.



If Tsunade tries to get A in the air, he could probably just flip over her punch like Sasuke did to B's Lariat. A's combat reflexes are Minato level _before _any Raiton enhancement. Tsunade isn't even _close_ in that aspect. 



> She also doesn't need more than one punch ? A single punch digs deeply into Madaras Sussano which is already far more durable than Ay himself. She would punch through Ay, and her kick would turn him into meat chunks.



Not necessarily.

Flesh ≠ Susano'o. I think of it like this: you hit a wall with a hammer, you crack it or put a hole in it. You hit a human with a hammer, you..uh.._don't_ crack him.

I don't actually know what would happen if Tsunade hit him. However, Shinobi tend to handle blunt attacks better than they handle cutting ones, and A has eaten up his fair share of slicing attacks without taking _any_ injuries, so I think he'd be okay after one of Tsunade's punches.


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> It's still debatable. Ay doesn't necessarily fight tactically all the time considering he rushed an MS user like sasuke without a plan and in V1.



Sasuke havent used MS at that moment. And i dont remember Raikage knowing that Sasuke is a MS user before that battle happened. But when he used it, Raikage emmediately turn on his V2 Raiton armor. 



Plus, Sasuke at that moment wasnt as legendary and famous as the Sannin. Do you realy think Raikage wont use V2 from the start against 3 kage-level ninjas as legendary as the sannin, one of which is the best medical ninja in the world? Raikage knows what Tsunade is capable of. And she has another 2 sannin on her side. Raikage is not a complete idiot, so of course he will use V2 from the start and attack Tsunade. And the bad thing for The Sannin is that they cant do anything about that, because they cant react to V2 speed. Raikage is gonna hit Tsunade's neck with his chop, thats for sure.



> Why is sakura stronger than Tsuande?



Because she broke one of Kaguya's horns and seemingly had more destructive power in her attacks than Tsunade. Plus, Hashirama, who sensed Tsunade on that battlefield and was there for a while, said she is stronger than Tsunade, as i remember. 



> Tsuande can strike just as fast as Ay



Do you have any proof?


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The might catch A off guard once, but it isn't going to be that effective over the course of the fight. Tsunade doesn't actually posses the ability to block A once he starts switching to lightning chops. She's just going to get cut in half.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All she needs is one time rocky lol, she's Tsuande. & Katusyu patches can negate his lighting blades.

When was stated that his reflexes were minato level before Raiton enhancement ? Maybe I missed something. But I'm more on the impression that the Intial explosion would blast Ay horizontally across the battlefield but maybe that's just me . Having high reactions doesn't necessarily mean he is agile enough to flip over a punch. Especially considering he would be mid-air and not actually be able to flicker. His mid-air non Shunshin self shouldn't be that quick, especially when caught off the fly after being flung like a bullet I suppose.

But Ay is less durable than Madaras ribcage Sussano. I mean his Sussano outright tanked ays strongest vertical chop: Link removed
While Tsunade reduced that Sussano to nothing. She also punched Madaras body so hard that she could fly through the opening in his body, and that same Madara isn't effected by Ays V2 flash step punches. I just think the gap is to big... Worst case scenario, she completely opens his chest and ruptures organs. I don't think Ay is so much more durable than Madara, where a punch that turns him and his Sussano into bits wouldn't at the very least put him out of battle.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> All she needs is one time rocky lol, she's Tsuande. & Katusyu patches can negate his lighting blades.



I don't accept "she's Tsunade" as an argument. 

I don't know what "Katsuyu patches" or how they would stop A's chops.



> When was stated that his reflexes were minato level before Raiton enhancement ? Maybe I missed something.







> But I'm more on the impression that the Intial explosion would blast Ay horizontally across the battlefield but maybe that's just me . Having high reactions doesn't necessarily mean he is agile enough to flip over a punch. Especially considering he would be mid-air and not actually be able to flicker. His mid-air non Shunshin self shouldn't be that quick, especially when caught off the fly after being flung like a bullet I suppose.



Well if A goes flying Tsunade isn't going to have much of an opening. If he goes straight up into the air, he's just going to flip over her when she goes to hit him. He's fast without his flicker, and even faster with his Raiton cloak. Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed. 



> don't think Ay is so much more durable than Madara, where a punch that turns him and his Sussano into bits wouldn't at the very least put him out of battle.



You literally ignored my post dude. I just brought up why Susano'o can't necessarily be compared to flesh when the flesh is also durable. She hit through Madara, but Madara is _nowhere near_ A. Madara _even with Hashirama's sage durability_ was stabbed by Sasuke's sword clean through the arm, and that same sword when ehanced by lightning bounced off A's neck.


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Sasuke havent used MS at that moment. And i dont remember Raikage knowing that Sasuke is a MS user before that battle happened. But when he used it, Raikage emmediately turn on his V2 Raiton armor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's implied he knew he had the MS prior.  He was at the very least told that Sasuke could spit black flames out his Ay( Kumo ninja we're watching the battle) and considering he already had prior info on MS, he could have easily tied that to Itachi . Even if he didn't , point is that he knew Sasuke had taken down his brother... A perfect Bjuii, and still resorted to V1 first. I see no reason for him to immediately amp V2 and go for a cutting attack, when he has never been that serious in the past. I actually was only assuming he was fighting Tsuande lol . But even then , Ay still has to activate his armor and build the chakra to release his shushin . And ASSUMING he starts off at a measly 10m, all the Sannin have the chance to get of a single Justu . Most likely a LoS blocker. From there on, Jiaryias the only one he can one shot, and he's screwed.

? Tsunade never had the chance to punch the ground like sakura or punch Kaguya. Those are bad examples. It's like saying sakura is weaker because she hasn't obliterated Madaras Mokuton Bunshin like Tsuande. 

Do you know how old Tsuande was when Hashirama died ? If anything that actually would help my case ..... + the only real person there who could compare them was Shizune, and she completely overlooked the strength feat and was more worried about her seal. So I doubt she is stronger than Tsuande. 

Ays raiton cloak doesn't increase his striking speed( just his shunshin speed, reflexes, and durabilty) and Tsuande and Ay strike at the same speed: Link removed
Tsunade actually strikes faster than that considering her muscles were ripped.


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't accept "she's Tsunade" as an argument.
> 
> I don't know what "Katsuyu patches" or how they would stop A's chops.
> 
> ...




Do you realy think C's opinion can be taken as a good proof? Can you remind me when C saw Minato in action?


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## Rocky (May 15, 2015)

I have no reason to doubt C.


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

> It's implied he knew he had the MS prior. He was at the very least told that Sasuke could spit black flames out his Ay( Kumo ninja we're watching the battle) and considering he already had prior info on MS, he could have easily tied that to Itachi . Even if he didn't , point is that he knew Sasuke had taken down his brother... A perfect Bjuii, and still resorted to V1 first. I see no reason for him to immediately amp V2 and go for a cutting attack, when he has never been that serious in the past. I actually was only assuming he was fighting Tsuande lol . But even then , Ay still has to activate his armor and build the chakra to release his shushin . And ASSUMING he starts off at a measly 10m, all the Sannin have the chance to get of a single Justu . Most likely a LoS blocker. From there on, Jiaryias the only one he can one shot, and he's screwed.



He thought Sasuke is a little brad, as i remember. Sasuke didnt have the reputation of the Sannin. Plus, as soon as Sasuke activated MS, Raikage activated V2. In Sannin situation, we have 3 kage level famous ninjas, one of which is the best medical ninja in the world. Ei is not an idiot and for sure he will attack Tsunade first. He can build up V2 chakra emmideately (as seen in his confrontation with KCM Naruto and Bee) and then speedblitz Sannin around. 



> ? Tsunade never had the chance to punch the ground like sakura or punch Kaguya. Those are bad examples. It's like saying sakura is weaker because she hasn't obliterated Madaras Mokuton Bunshin like Tsuande.
> 
> Do you know how old Tsuande was when Hashirama died ? If anything that actually would help my case ..... + the only real person there who could compare them was Shizune, and she completely overlooked the strength feat and was more worried about her seal. So I doubt she is stronger than Tsuande.



He sensed Tsunade on the battlefield and was there for a while. 



> Ays raiton cloak doesn't increase his striking speed( just his shunshin speed, reflexes, and durabilty) and Tsuande and Ay strike at the same speed: Link removed
> Tsunade actually strikes faster than that considering her muscles were ripped.



Since when Raiton cloak does not increase striking speed? Since when Tsunade can hit as fast as V2 Ei? At that moment when they hit at the same time, Ei's Raiton armor wasnt activated. I dont know why have you brought that as an example.


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I have no reason to doubt C.



C has never seen Minato in action. Thats why his words about Ei's reaction speed compare to Minato's reaction speed cant be taken as a good proof.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 15, 2015)

Minato seems to be highly revered in Kumogakure and even had many battles with Ei, in which he'd never outright defeated the latter. I'm sure this kind of information would be passed down and spread across the village as legend.


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't accept "she's Tsunade" as an argument.
> 
> I don't know what "Katsuyu patches" or how they would stop A's chops.
> 
> ...



Because Katsuyu + Tsuande + Byakago is more than durable enough to stop from being split in half. That's my point .

Maybe I interpreted differently ? But I definitely read it as his reaction with RNY were equal to Minato. That would make far more sense as Ays reactions aren't that much higher than someone like Sage Naruto for example. 

He's still not only in free-fall, but in a far worse position as he cannot actually move while Tsuande can shunshin off the damn ground . I also don't see why being hit with a massive explosion to the face, sending you hurling several meteors wouldn't put you in the absolute worse position ever? Ay in free fall after being hurled away, would be the perfect time for Tsuande to capitalize on. The DB stat for speed doesn't include shunshin btw.

Naw I see what you are saying, I just said that the gap was too large to bridge basically. It's like Kaguya chakra arm destroying Sasukes PS, but not being able to harm the Raikage because his skin isn't solid. But the example you posted is actually pretty good .

I was hoping for Ay to have cut his amaterasu covered arm off while in RnY mode, but he seemed to have done so in base. The only stretch I could make is that the durability gap between RnY and Base Ay isn't large enough for Ay to not be able to atleast dig his chakra blade into his skin in RNY mode seeing as he can cut through his base arm like butter. That same enchnaced chop couldn't scratch Sussano, but Tsuande could outright go through it with a kick. Then we have the fact that base chidori could actually pierce Ay, while something like this being pushed on both sides into Madaras Sussano could hardly scratch it : Link removed
Even though Resengan and chidori do different types of Damage, the difference between base Chidori and that are tremendous. Enough that Sasukes chidori wouldn't do a damn thing. I'm really digging deep for this lol, but I feel like just because there isn't a direct connection between Tsuandes stroking power and Ays durabilty doesn't mean he would survive it. I mean Ays strongest slicing attack couldn't do anything to Sussano yet Tsuande turns around and obliterates it. Ays direct punch couldn't do anything to Madara yet she turned him into almost nothing from a punch. Ay surviving a punch just doesn't seem right at all. But if it makes you feel better, Tsuande can reverse mystical Palm his ass, or concentrate the chakra at the points of her fingers and go arm deep in his ass.


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He thought Sasuke is a little brad, as i remember. Sasuke didnt have the reputation of the Sannin. Plus, as soon as Sasuke activated MS, Raikage activated V2. In Sannin situation, we have 3 kage level famous ninjas, one of which is the best medical ninja in the world. Ei is not an idiot and for sure he will attack Tsunade first. He can build up V2 chakra emmideately (as seen in his confrontation with KCM Naruto and Bee) and then speedblitz Sannin around.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn't matter if he thought Sasuke was a brat, he prolly also thinks ORO is a piece of shit too. Facts are, Sasuke defeated a perfect jin. He should have taken him seriously but didn't. Which is what I see happening here, he prolly wouldn't open up with V2 and would activate it the more the battle increased. But for the sake of the argument, I will assume he opens in V2, but I already explained how that doesn't really do anything ..

Can you link me to any time where Ay has immediately activated his shroud from base, then built up the chakra for V2 , and then covered the distance to strike before a ninja can cast a single seal?

In case you forgot, Hashirama made the statement when Tsuande was literally in two pieces far away from Konoha or the SA.

It's never been stated too.... It's only been stated to increase his shunshin, and up his reactions. It's never been stated or implied to increase his arm speed, nor would it ? It increase his shunshin because it Amps the chakra to he applies to his flash step. He doesn't use chakra to augment his arm speed so therefore his RnY doesn't do so. Ays arm speed isn't that quick. It's actually the reason Sasuke was able to activate amaterasu before being thrashed. Ay usually just throws his punch as he flash steps.. But that still leaves him open for a counterattack, considering he has to build chakra to flash step away. But then again he usually aims to end the fight with a single V2 flicker so...


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Okay and than she activates Byakugo to recover from the damage. She isn't dying from one punch.


I'm 100% certain she is. She doesn't have the durabilty to withstand A's punch without any kind of regen backing her up.



> Tsunade is stated to be stronger, and he survived Tsunade's punch. Also hitting someone 200m is way beyond anything Ei ever showed.


It was off panel, and most likely it wasn't Tsunade's strongest punch and she wasn't trying to kill Jiraiya. 
Again, based on feats, Jiraiya doesn't have the durability to take a hit from A.
But I'll concede if  you can prove that Jiraiya is more durable than CS2 Juugo or Ribcage Susano'o.



> Ei isn't likely to start with R2. Most matches don't start at that close of range. Even against Minato, Minato had time to throw one Kunai, talk, than scatter more Kunai, so chances are they would get a Jutsu in before Ei attempted to blitz them.


A started against Minato with V2. And actually most fights start from fairly close distances than the ones we use in BD. Most fights have 3-10 meters starting distance.



> I said against Jiraiya. Basically he has a 2 in 3 shot of hitting Oro or Tsunade, and a 1 in 3 chance of hitting J-man. So he needs to be lucky to hit J-man over one of the other two.


Fair enough.



> Jiraiya is just that durable.


No he isn't. Not even in SM.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

> Doesn't matter if he thought Sasuke was a brat, he prolly also thinks ORO is a piece of shit too. Facts are, Sasuke defeated a perfect jin. He should have taken him seriously but didn't. Which is what I see happening here, he prolly wouldn't open up with V2 and would activate it the more the battle increased. But for the sake of the argument, I will assume he opens in V2, but I already explained how that doesn't really do anything ..



Sasuke defeated perfect jin, whom Raikage fought many times and could beat by himself. And in this situation, its not a 1 on 1 fight - its 3 on 1. And all those 3 shinobi are legendary kage level Sannin. Raikage is not stupid enough to not use V2 from the start in order to kill the best medical ninja in the world. 

After V2 activation, he cuts Tsunade's head off and beats Jiraya with Liger Bomb and few chop to his face. Its debatable if he can beat Orochimaru after that.



> Can you link me to any time where Ay has immediately activated his shroud from base, then built up the chakra for V2 , and then covered the distance to strike before a ninja can cast a single seal?
> 
> In case you forgot, Hashirama made the statement when Tsuande was literally in two pieces far away from Konoha or the SA.



Realy? When she still was there? Maybe. But nevertheless, i dont remember such an aftermath after Tsunade's hits. Sakura's hits appear to be a lot stronger, seeing what she has done with theground there. 

He can activate V1, dodge few Sannin attempts to hit him and then activate V2. After that, 2 sannin are gonna die. 



> It's never been stated too.... It's only been stated to increase his shunshin, and up his reactions. It's never been stated or implied to increase his arm speed, nor would it ? It increase his shunshin because it Amps the chakra to he applies to his flash step. He doesn't use chakra to augment his arm speed so therefore his RnY doesn't do so. Ays arm speed isn't that quick. It's actually the reason Sasuke was able to activate amaterasu before being thrashed. Ay usually just throws his punch as he flash steps.. But that still leaves him open for a counterattack, considering he has to build chakra to flash step away. But then again he usually aims to end the fight with a single V2 flicker so...



Here is a scan where KCM Naruto commented on Raikage's striking speed.



And few more scans.







It seems his Raiton armor increases his striking speed. ANd the reason Sasuke activated black flames there was his MS precognition.

As for Tsunade, she had problems with Orochimaru and Kabuto, as i remember. She is poor in terms of striking speed feats.


----------



## LostSelf (May 15, 2015)

If Ei grabs his backpack quick enough, this match easily becomes a 3 vs 2. In wich we know who would win.


----------



## Turrin (May 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'm 100% certain she is. She doesn't have the durabilty to withstand A's punch without any kind of regen backing her up.
> .


She withstood being sliced and diced by the Ksunagi sword and her body strength is rated a 5 in the DB. There is no reason to assume she dies in one hit.



> It was off panel, and most likely it wasn't Tsunade's strongest punch and she wasn't trying to kill Jiraiya.


Tsunade's not strongest punch is still superior to Ei's. Hitting someone 200m is a better feat than Ei. Jiraiya already having lost blood also tanked having his throat ripped, stabbed by chakra disrupting blades 5 times, and basically willing himself back to life. He also tanked an attack from KN4. All of this is worse than a single hit from Ei.



> But I'll concede if you can prove that Jiraiya is more durable than CS2 Juugo or Ribcage Susano'o.


Tsunade's strike blew through a stronger Susano'o, but failed to kill J-man and Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'o was blow away by Kabuto's Suiton. 



> A started against Minato with V2. .


Because he knew of Minato's speed, otherwise he wouldn't have, and like I said even there was a gap in time where any of the Sannin could cast Jutsu, considering there was time for Minato to throw one Kunai, talk, throw more Kunai, and drop yet another Kunai. 

Against Sasuke who he thought beat B he started in V1. That should tell you all you need to know about the chances of him going V2 right off the bat.



> And actually most fights start from fairly close distances than the ones we use in BD. Most fights have 3-10 meters starting distance


No they don't. Most fights start with one or both of the fighters becoming aware of the others presence well before short. Demon-Bros, Zabuza, and Haku were aware off Team 7 before short in their two initial battles. All of the Sannin arc and rescue Sasuke Arc battles were this way. All of the Gaiden battles had oneside knowing they were going to face the enemy before short. All of the Sungakuru arc battels were this way as well. All of the Rescue Sasuke Arc battles were this way. All of the Immortals arc battles were this way. All of the Uchiha Brothers arc battles were this way. And so on.

Pretty much every arc ether the heroes or the villains or both know they are going to be facing an opponent long before the match comes into Short-Range. Outside of rare instances like the Chunin Exams, this by far the more likely case. And specifically here the chance of Ei getting into point-blank range of the Sannin w/o them detecting him is slim to none. Ei doesn't have any amazing steal abilities in-fact he is the anthesis of stealthy and the Sannin have a number of detection abilities. 



> No he isn't. Not even in SM.


Yet he survived two people whose strikes are well beyond Ei's


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## FlamingRain (May 15, 2015)

I'm pretty sure Tsunade only blew Jiraiya back 100m.


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Sasuke defeated perfect jin, whom Raikage fought many times and could beat by himself. And in this situation, its not a 1 on 1 fight - its 3 on 1. And all those 3 shinobi are legendary kage level Sannin. Raikage is not stupid enough to not use V2 from the start in order to kill the best medical ninja in the world.
> 
> After V2 activation, he cuts Tsunade's head off and beats Jiraya with Liger Bomb and few chop to his face. Its debatable if he can beat Orochimaru after that.
> 
> ...



Cutting Tsunades head doesn't kill her, and she already may be standing 100m atop Katsuyu by the team he fully activates his RnY and dashes. Even if we assume that all the Sannin don't do a Damn thing, and watch Ay charge his shunshin and activate his cloak and cover the distance, in the moment of striking Tsunade, Jirayia and oro both boss summon putting them 100m into the air. From there on Jirayia uses Shadow Justu which negates physical contact, create a KB to Bunshin feint, and hides among the battlefield prepping Sage Mode. Oro can actually tank Raikage punches via resilience and oral rebirth. He goes hydra mode and Ay gets outright exposed to poison via contact. As hes slowly dying, Jirayia appears in sage mode, and Tsuande regenerates her head. There is no way he beats the Sannin at all. I don't think you actually know the Sannins abilities lol.

That doesn't matter at all? Sakura " appearing " to strike the ground harder does not matter AT ALL. Tsuande has never been given the same feat to replicate. It's illogical.  They are around the same power level by logic and statements.

If Ay goes V1, he's fucked. The Sannin aren't going to rush a speedster, they are going to all support each others Justu and prep with boss summonings. I suppose a Byakago enhanced Yomi Nomi followed by FCD, or diamond neck stab would end Ay right on the spot. Or the best tactic would he to Byakago enchnace a Yomi Nomi, and catch Ay in free fall where he can't use his super speed. Ay gets wrecked.

His flicker is fast. That's movement speed not striking. If Ay stood in one place and threw a god damn punch, then nobody would really think it's that impressive. All of those feats don't really show impressive striking feats. He usually just punches And flickers at the same time, literally appearing in his opponents and not giving them a chance to react. There's not proof that speed enhances as it's not really logical or proven. 

And that's not the reason. The whole point of Raikage showcasing his speed was to show that he could move faster than the Sharingan could register . And that's exactly what happened as Ay arrived beside Sasuke before he had even noticed he had moved. He then activated amaterasu as Ay was moving: Hiruzen

Which honestly just enhances my entire point of him not punching all that fast but moving really fast. 

Lol you don't know enough about Tsuande even in the war arc to make those claims. Re-read fight cause you don't know what you are talking about .


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> She withstood being sliced and diced by the Ksunagi sword and her body strength is rated a 5 in the DB. There is no reason to assume she dies in one hit.


Her face isn't withstanding this : Hiruzen
And  thats just V1.
If she loses consciousness, then she can't activate any jutsu.



> Tsunade's not strongest punch is still superior to Ei's. Hitting someone 200m is a better feat than Ei.


It is 100% an exaggeration. 
Its like you walk into a crowded room and say "omg there are like a 1000 people in here." Even if there aren't literally 1000 people in there

Its offpaneled anyways, not a legit "feat."



> Jiraiya already having lost blood also tanked having his throat ripped, stabbed by chakra disrupting blades 5 times, and basically willing himself back to life. He also tanked an attack from KN4. All of this is worse than a single hit from Ei.



None of them are even comparable to a hit from A though. Also none of them are durability feats, they are mostly endurance feats.  If Jiraiya just shrugged them off, then you could call them durability feats. But those hits pretty much ended him. 
As for Ribcage Susano'o.... It wouldn't even be dented by any of those so, it doesn't prove anything.

Kn4 was off-panel btw, there is absolutely no way of knowing what kind of a hit Jiraiya "tanked."



> Tsunade's strike blew through a stronger Susano'o, but failed to kill J-man and Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'o was blow away by Kabuto's Suiton.


Tsunade's strike* cracked *a stronger Susano'O, she blew through that Susano'o later on with help from A.

I'm actually puzzled by that bit about Kabuto's suiton. Because when the suiton connects with Sasuke, there is no visible Susano'o around him, or susano'o pieces flying around(assuming it was broken). Also later on when he launches the same suiton on Sasuke, it doesn't do anything to his Susano'O.



> Because he knew of Minato's speed, otherwise he wouldn't have, and like I said even there was a gap in time where any of the Sannin could cast Jutsu, considering there was time for Minato to throw one Kunai, talk, throw more Kunai, and drop yet another Kunai.


But thats how Minato starts his battles, like If the plot doesn't allow him to spread those Kunai then what the fuck is he going to do ? 

And even if we grant Sannin time to talk and think and cast a signature jutsu before A makes his move, I don't see them casting anything that saves them from A's blitz, especially in Jiraiya's case. I also don't see Tsunade activating Byakugou off the bat preemptively, unless she has full knowledge.



> Against Sasuke who he thought beat B he started in V1. That should tell you all you need to know about the chances of him going V2 right off the bat.


Why would he refrain from using V2 in an overwhelming situation ?
I am also talking about a specific scenario, where I mentioned "if the fight goes as it went against Minato."

Also countering A's V2 isn't just dependant on insane reaction speed, but also quick jutsu activation.
So far Sasuke & Minato barely saved their skin by the virtue of being able to instantly activate a jutsu. As far as we know, neither of them sannin have such jutsu.



> No they don't. Most fights start with one or both of the fighters becoming aware of the others presence well before short. Demon-Bros, Zabuza, and Haku were aware off Team 7 before short in their two initial battles. All of the Sannin arc and rescue Sasuke Arc battles were this way. All of the Gaiden battles had oneside knowing they were going to face the enemy before short. All of the Sungakuru arc battels were this way as well. All of the Rescue Sasuke Arc battles were this way. All of the Immortals arc battles were this way. All of the Uchiha Brothers arc battles were this way. And so on.
> 
> Pretty much every arc ether the heroes or the villains or both know they are going to be facing an opponent long before the match comes into Short-Range. Outside of rare instances like the Chunin Exams, this by far the more likely case. And specifically here the chance of Ei getting into point-blank range of the Sannin w/o them detecting him is slim to none. Ei doesn't have any amazing steal abilities in-fact he is the anthesis of stealthy and the Sannin have a number of detection abilities.



This isn't true, unless one of the parties is ambushing the other, all fights start around conversation distance, which isn't more than 10 meters.



> Yet he survived two people whose strikes are well beyond Ei's


Jiraiya has no on panel durability feats that suggest he is even remotely close to Susano'O(makes no sense either), so no, Jiraiya isn't surviving a punch from A.

Jiraiya gets knocked out by this(ends up with broken bones) : Hiruzen

Ribcage Susano'o can tank this : Hiruzen

Jiraiya gets liquified under similar force.


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## Turrin (May 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Her face isn't withstanding this : Hiruzen
> And  thats just V1.
> If she loses consciousness, then she can't activate any jutsu.


Dude base B withstood Ei's physical attacks w/o issue. Tsunade is one of the greatest physical monsters in this manga, she is above Juugo and much closer to B in that regard.



> It is 100% an exaggeration.
> Its like you walk into a crowded room and say "omg there are like a 1000 people in here." Even if there aren't literally 1000 people in there


It's not an exaggeration that Tsunade's blows are much stronger than Ei's and Jiraiya survived them.



> Its offpaneled anyways, not a legit "feat."


Hiruzen

That may or may not have been the instance, but who cares if it was off paneled, it's still a legit feat that he could survive Tsunade beating him half to death, because we are told it happened.



> None of them are even comparable to a hit from A though. Also none of them are durability feats, they are mostly endurance feats. If Jiraiya just shrugged them off, then you could call them durability feats. But those hits pretty much ended him


And were not just talking about durability, were talking about Jiriaya's ability to survive a hit from Ei long enough for Tsunade to heal him.



> Kn4 was off-panel btw, there is absolutely no way of knowing what kind of a hit Jiraiya "tanked."


Off paneled is not a reason to discount it. We've seen KN4's strength and we saw Jiraiya's scar, so we know it was a serious blow.



> Tsunade's strike cracked a stronger Susano'O, she blew through that Susano'o later on with help from A.


That still very clearly shows Tsunade is well above Ei in strength. 



> I'm actually puzzled by that bit about Kabuto's suiton. Because when the suiton connects with Sasuke, there is no visible Susano'o around him, or susano'o pieces flying around(assuming it was broken). Also later on when he launches the same suiton on Sasuke, it doesn't do anything to his Susano'O.


We didn't see the moment of contact and the other instance your referring to was in an Izanami world.



> But thats how Minato starts his battles, like If the plot doesn't allow him to spread those Kunai then what the fuck is he going to do ?


So than if the plot doesn't allow Jiriaya to go SM, Tsunade to go Byakugo, etc... 



> And even if we grant Sannin time to talk and think and cast a signature jutsu before A makes his move, I don't see them casting anything that saves them from A's blitz, especially in Jiraiya's case.


Tsunade activates Byakugo. Jiraiya uses an LOS blocker. Orochimaru is fine ether way



> I also don't see Tsunade activating Byakugou off the bat preemptively, unless she has full knowledge.


Tsunade must know of RCM and it's potency



> Why would he refrain from using V2 in an overwhelming situation ?


If he doesn't consider someone who was able to caputre B and overwhelming situation, than I don't see him considering going up against a Sannin an overwhelming situation



> I am also talking about a specific scenario, where I mentioned "if the fight goes as it went against Minato."


I know, and I was saying it's unlikely that any Sannin finds themselves in that situation.



> Also countering A's V2 isn't just dependant on insane reaction speed, but also quick jutsu activation.
> So far Sasuke & Minato barely saved their skin by the virtue of being able to instantly activate a jutsu. As far as we know, neither of them sannin have such jutsu.


Scatter Kunai and talking is not some insane activation time. There is more than enough time for the Sannin to use a Jutsu.



> his isn't true, unless one of the parties is ambushing the other, all fights start around conversation distance, which isn't more than 10 meters.


Where they actually exchange blows is irrelevant. What matters is when they become aware of the enemy and the enemy's threat. If Tsunade, Jiraiya, or Orochimaru become aware of Ei at 100m, they are going to take preemptive precautions, even if the first time the exchange blows is at short. 



> Jiraiya has no on panel durability feats that suggest he is even remotely close to Susano'O(makes no sense either), so no, Jiraiya isn't surviving a punch from A.


It doesn't matter if it's on panel or not. On panel Rib-Cage Susano'o has hardly been impressive ether.



> Jiraiya gets knocked out by this(ends up with broken bones)


He was poisoned....



> Ribcage Susano'o can tank this : Hiruzen


That's really not impressive. SPII Sakura could create environmental damage like that. So could basic Rasengan. Fuck Shinra-Tensei has done similar colteral damage and character less physical capable than Jiriaya have survived it time and time again. Asuma while certainly damage heavily wasn't torn apart or liquified as you say Jiraiya would be when hit by Cho Baik Butterfly Choji whose eons about Ei in strength. Orochimaru whose less physical fit than Jiraiya took hits from Tsunade and KN1 w/o being obliterated and we saw him before he regenerated. None of which I see killing Jiraiya, a man with nigh rough tier physical strength and the ability to survive Tsunade's blows and KN4.


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2015)

MuU could take A punch and get up though
Didn't know Muu was more durable than tsunade 
Worse Muu was undamaged
While Muu straight dashed into said punch 

I don't see why on earth A hits Tsunade once and she looses conciousness when 2 swords in her and she still very concious and fighting back


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Dude base B withstood Ei's physical attacks w/o issue. Tsunade is one of the greatest physical monsters in this manga, she is above Juugo and much closer to B in that regard.
> 
> 
> It's not an exaggeration that Tsunade's blows are much stronger than Ei's and Jiraiya survived them.
> ...




Yeah well, I am not buying "Jiraiya survived getting beat up by Tsunade off panel god knows how many years ago" as a credible argument on Jiraiya's durability. I don't think anyone here would either. You can create a thread about this(Jiraiya's durability vs Ribcage Susano'o) and see for yourself. 

"Izanami world" is the exact same replica of our world, so there is no way you can discard Sasuke's susano'o not sustaining any damage because of that. 

And show me shinra tensei creating a similar crater to A's liger bomb and I'll concede. Also take into consideration that Jiraiya was taken out of comission briefly by a much weaker attack, I guess I have to post this again : body was rejecting him
body was rejecting him

Also Orochimaru is by no means "normal" in terms of physiology(you can consider him inhuman), so his durability feats don't transfer to Jiraiya or Tsunade, who are just regular strong shinobi and by all means "human."


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## Thunder (May 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> MuU could take A punch and get up though
> Didn't know Muu was more durable than tsunade
> Worse Muu was undamaged
> While Muu straight dashed into said punch
> ...



That was a punch from _base_ A. Raiton Chakra Mode wasn't activated. 

Despite that Mū was still blown back and couldn't move for a bit.

Unlike Mū though, Tsunade comes back from anything A does to her thanks to Byakugō. Unless her head is chopped off which is debatable.


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2015)

Thunder said:


> That was a punch from _base_ A. Raiton Chakra Mode wasn't activated.
> 
> Despite that Mū was still blown back and couldn't move for a bit.
> 
> Unlike Mū though, Tsunade comes back from anything A does to her thanks to Byakugō. Unless her head is chopped off which is debatable.



But that was A who instantly appeared infront of Muu and hit him 
His momentum there counts for something doesn't it ?

Tbh A cannot chop people or heads in half his raiton isn't sharp while his cloak is active 

Hachibi horn broke off due to impact force . Not because it was cut through due to the nature of raiton 

He uses Taijutsu strikes . I think he is more likely to break tsunade neck which she will heal from easily than cut her head off 

Could be my bias . Though I think most exaggerate his speed if they think he is impossible for them to react to 

To avoid yes no doubt . Reacting is a lot easier .


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## StarWanderer (May 15, 2015)

> Cutting Tsunades head doesn't kill her, and she already may be standing 100m atop Katsuyu by the team he fully activates his RnY and dashes. Even if we assume that all the Sannin don't do a Damn thing, and watch Ay charge his shunshin and activate his cloak and cover the distance, in the moment of striking Tsunade, Jirayia and oro both boss summon putting them 100m into the air. From there on Jirayia uses Shadow Justu which negates physical contact, create a KB to Bunshin feint, and hides among the battlefield prepping Sage Mode. Oro can actually tank Raikage punches via resilience and oral rebirth. He goes hydra mode and Ay gets outright exposed to poison via contact. As hes slowly dying, Jirayia appears in sage mode, and Tsuande regenerates her head. There is no way he beats the Sannin at all. I don't think you actually know the Sannins abilities lol.



She cant grow her head back. Thats why she'd be dead after her head is chopped off. Raikage can run on Katsuyu up to Tsunade so he can kill her. 

And the thing is - scenario can be different. He can attack Jiraya first to nerfe teams offensive capabilities and while he is flying away from Raiton punch, Raikage can cut Tsunade's head off. Orochimaru isnt a factor in this fight. 

I am not saying that Ei can alone beat Sannin, but he definetely can give them lots of trouble. 



> That doesn't matter at all? Sakura " appearing " to strike the ground harder does not matter AT ALL. Tsuande has never been given the same feat to replicate. It's illogical. They are around the same power level by logic and statements.
> 
> If Ay goes V1, he's fucked. The Sannin aren't going to rush a speedster, they are going to all support each others Justu and prep with boss summonings. I suppose a Byakago enhanced Yomi Nomi followed by FCD, or diamond neck stab would end Ay right on the spot. Or the best tactic would he to Byakago enchnace a Yomi Nomi, and catch Ay in free fall where he can't use his super speed. Ay gets wrecked.



That shockwave Sakura created - i've never seen Tsunade doing the same.

I want you to show me Tsunade doing anything as good as this. Those little, tiny things are Juubi clones, by the way. 



Raikage can emmediately go from V1 to V2 and after that Sannin wont be able to react to his movements. I dont think they are fast enough to do anything to Raikage before he activates V2.



> His flicker is fast. That's movement speed not striking. If Ay stood in one place and threw a god damn punch, then nobody would really think it's that impressive. All of those feats don't really show impressive striking feats. He usually just punches And flickers at the same time, literally appearing in his opponents and not giving them a chance to react. There's not proof that speed enhances as it's not really logical or proven.



I just brought the scans that proves his hand speed is insane, when he can tag both Bee and KCM Naruto with his strikes. Tsunade doesnt have striking speed feats comparable to those of Raikage.



> And that's not the reason. The whole point of Raikage showcasing his speed was to show that he could move faster than the Sharingan could register . And that's exactly what happened as Ay arrived beside Sasuke before he had even noticed he had moved. He then activated amaterasu as Ay was moving: Raiton Chakra Mode wasn't activated



Sasuke had MS precognition. 



> Which honestly just enhances my entire point of him not punching all that fast but moving really fast.
> 
> Lol you don't know enough about Tsuande even in the war arc to make those claims. Re-read fight cause you don't know what you are talking about .



And you know enough to say she can heal her head after its been chopped off. Nice.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2015)

Can you use spoiler tags or hyperlinks please.


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## Thunder (May 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> But that was A who instantly appeared infront of Muu and hit him
> His momentum there counts for something doesn't it ?



We would've seen more momentum from top speed A (Raiton: Shunshin). After all, A _teleported _in front of Mū as if he used Hiraishin. 

The surprise factor of that attack does count for something though.



> Tbh A cannot chop people or heads in half his raiton isn't sharp while his cloak is active
> 
> Hachibi horn broke off due to impact force . Not because it was cut through due to the nature of raiton


A severed his own hand with that same Raiton. Slicing off limbs is not an issue for A. If A goes in for a chop then he'll just sharpen the Raiton chakra in his hand like you said. 

And in the case of Gyūki's horn it was _combination_ of impact force and Raiton. A's fighting style is a perfect blend of ninjutsu and taijutsu. You can't just ignore the ninjutsu aspect. It's always present.



> He uses Taijutsu strikes . I think he is more likely to break tsunade neck which she will heal from easily than cut her head off


A incorporates strikes, chops _and_ wrestling moves. Whatever is most appropriate for the situation as we've seen. Against someone with a powerful healing factor A would be much more inclined to try everything in his arsenal which is limited to begin with. But like I said, it's debatable if a chop to the neck would put Tsunade down for good.

If Tsunade grabs hold of A it could end badly for him.


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2015)

Thunder said:


> We would've seen more momentum from top speed A (Raiton: Shunshin). After all, A _teleported _in front of Mū as if he used Hiraishin.
> 
> The surprise factor of that attack does count for something though.
> 
> ...



Hey thunder first off haven't said hi 
Been a while 
A cannot use raiton to chop things while his cloak is active . do note he deactivated it to chop his hand and the only time he has chopped anytbing

He broke Susanoo rib cage he didn't cut through it 

I know he can cut things just not when his cloak is active. That a different and separate jutsu to using raiton to cut things 

Hachibi horn attack was no different from what he tried with madara rib cage . Lightning Horizontal drop. A karate chop . Not a cutting attack . 

What do you think ?


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## Thunder (May 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Hey thunder first off haven't said hi
> Been a while



Nice to you around again, Icegaze. 



> A cannot use raiton to chop things while his cloak is active . do note he deactivated it to chop his hand and the only time he has chopped anytbing
> 
> He broke Susanoo rib cage he didn't cut through it
> 
> ...



I think what I said before still applies man: A's arm is coated in Raiton chakra thus all of his attacks (including chops) are going to be enhanced by that chakra. Basically I'm saying A's physical strength is a factor _along_ with the Raiton. It's how A put his fist through Jūgo without any momentum. His arm was sharpened. To say the same can't be done with his chops is kinda silly don't you think? 

As for why A deactivated shroud in order to cut off his arm, he probably did that so his arm would be easier to cut through. Makes more sense for A to deactivate Raiton Chakra Mode (which increases his defenses) before attempting to sever his a Raiton coated arm with the same element.


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> She cant grow her head back. Thats why she'd be dead after her head is chopped off. Raikage can run on Katsuyu up to Tsunade so he can kill her.
> 
> And the thing is - scenario can be different. He can attack Jiraya first to nerfe teams offensive capabilities and while he is flying away from Raiton punch, Raikage can cut Tsunade's head off. Orochimaru isnt a factor in this fight.
> 
> ...



You say this as a fact ? Do you have anything to prove this. Feats and statements actually say otherwise, and the burden of proof is on you to prove she dies from her head being separated from her neck even though Byakago restores any injury without her the to  be conscious. So yeah prove something here.

Katsuyu is 100m higher, meaning she has just about 10x the amount of time to react to Ays charge as minato did. She reacts comfortably, and can either phase into Katsuyu or Katsuyu can split up. She can even just summon 5% Katsuyu and outlast comfortably.

Assuming he starts in V2, and is 10m away from jiraiyia, then yeah he bliztes. But if he starts in base( like most Shinobi do) then he summons Bunta underneath him, and then has 10x the amount of time to react. He can also avoid the intial blitz, atop Bunta with his shadow Justu. 

Why isn't oro a factor when Raikage can't injure him, and he can turn into a auto regenerating hydra that's far bigger than Manda ?

That's neat and all. But when has War Arc Tsuande ever hit the ground ? I know what happened in the feat, as that's initially the feat I was talking about when I said she can create and FRS level explosion.  Sakura may be stronger than kid Tsunade by statements, so war arc Tsunade should atleast be able to match that.

At 50+m, the Sannin can comfortably react to his V2 movements. And as long as they force him into free fall, they beat him decisively.

Those feats didn't prove anything? In one feat  he hit an off guard killer bee, and in the other two he hit KCM Naruto with his flicker, which is indeed really fast . Tsunade has equal striking feats compared to that, she just doesn't flicker nearly as fast, which would allow bee and Naruto to avoid her movements. If she instantly appeared in their faces and punched they would be fucked.

Yes he reacted because of ms pre cog, but he could only react to his arm swing. Not his movement speed.

Cause she can.


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## Turrin (May 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah well, I am not buying "Jiraiya survived getting beat up by Tsunade off panel god knows how many years ago" as a credible argument on Jiraiya's durability. I don't think anyone here would either. You can create a thread about this(Jiraiya's durability vs Ribcage Susano'o) and see for yourself.


It's not my problem if someone wishes to discount events stated to happen in the manga. 



> "Izanami world" is the exact same replica of our world, so there is no way you can discard Sasuke's susano'o not sustaining any damage because of that.


Where was this ever stated.



> And show me shinra tensei creating a similar crater to A's liger bomb and I'll concede.


Here it creates a deep crater and while it's not as big as Liager Bomb's, Kakashi tanks it w/ zero issue and Kakashi is much less physical fit than Jiraiya [2 tier difference in the DB]:
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."

He also uses a Shinra Tensei big enough to destroy the ground bury Kakashi in huge chunks of earth and Kakashi survived:
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."

Or how about the fact that Asuma took Butterfly-Choji's Punch:
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."

Yes he was beaten the fuck out of we can see that from his Edo-Tensei cracking and stuff, but he wasn't annihlated the way you describe Jiraiya being by Ei and was certainly in condition where he could healed by Tsunade, despite the fact that even Part I-Choji is eons above Ei in striking force considering how easily he over-powered CS2-Jirobo, who tossed Chou Baika Choji, and this was Part II-Choji in Butterfly form with Chou Baika added on top of that.

Or how about what Kakuzu did to Kakashi:
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."

And he got back up just fine.

Or Part 1 Choji Surviving blows from CS1 and CS2 Jirobo:
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."

Yah know the man with a 5 in Str in Base and enhanced with CS to the point where in CS2 he could blow away Chou Baika Choji.

Or the untold amount of times characters too hits from JuubiJinchuuriki's and not showing the type of damage you expect Jiraiya to receive from Ei, despite the Juubijins being eons above Ei in striking force. 

Look at Sasuke, Juubito grab shattered his EMS Susano'o like nothing as oppose to Ei's liager bomb only cracking a rib of MS-Sasuke's Susano'o, yet his face is fucking fine form that impact:
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."

Minato and Gaara taking little damage from the force of Juubidara's kick:
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."

Kisame surviving Hirodora and than Gai's follow up attack.:
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."
"...There was never a man that could surpass him."

Need I go on?



> Also take into consideration that Jiraiya was taken out of comission briefly by a much weaker attack, I guess I have to post this again


Again he was physically weakened from poison, that's all that was.



> Also Orochimaru is by no means "normal" in terms of physiology(you can consider him inhuman), so his durability feats don't transfer to Jiraiya or Tsunade, who are just regular strong shinobi and by all means "human."


Orochimaru doesn't have freakish durability he has freakish regen. His actual physical ability is beneath Jiriaya's by 2 Tiers according to the DB. Again Jiriaya is suppose to be a physical monster


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## Rocky (May 16, 2015)

I wouldn't bring up the Jubi jinchuriki. Their strength feats are all over the place. Tsunade can blow through people, yet Minato got right up after getting kicked by Jubi Madara. Tsunade isn't > Madara via common sense though.


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## StarWanderer (May 16, 2015)

> You say this as a fact ? Do you have anything to prove this. Feats and statements actually say otherwise, and the burden of proof is on you to prove she dies from her head being separated from her neck even though Byakago restores any injury without her the to be conscious. So yeah prove something here.



She has never sustained that kind of injury. She was at a brink of death after Madara cut off her lower body part. Head, chopped off, is a much more lethal injury. But even if she can somehow survive, she would be able to rely only on summoned Katsuyu, if there will be such. Without Katsuyu, she wont be able to do anything because her brain will be separated from her body nervous system. She will be like Shinnok from MK10 after Raiden took off his head. 

And wait, feats and statements? Bring them here.



> Katsuyu is 100m higher, meaning she has just about 10x the amount of time to react to Ays charge as minato did. She reacts comfortably, and can either phase into Katsuyu or Katsuyu can split up. She can even just summon 5% Katsuyu and outlast comfortably.



When he will be on top of Katsuyu, he can attack from different directions and his reaction speed allows him to dodge any of Tsunade's attacks. She cant react to V2 Ei, at all. She doesnt have feats comparable to those of Ei. As soon as she summons Katsuyu, V2 Ei will be near her and try to attack her. The speed difference is too high.



> Assuming he starts in V2, and is 10m away from jiraiyia, then yeah he bliztes. But if he starts in base( like most Shinobi do) then he summons Bunta underneath him, and then has 10x the amount of time to react. He can also avoid the intial blitz, atop Bunta with his shadow Justu.



Starts in base, but emmediately goes for V2, which is almost instantenious. After that, Jiraya gets blitzed. The speed difference is too high.

I want you to show me Jiraya's speed feats good enough to say all those things about 10x amount of time to react.



> Why isn't oro a factor when Raikage can't injure him, and he can turn into a auto regenerating hydra that's far bigger than Manda ?



Because he cant hit Ei.



> That's neat and all. But when has War Arc Tsuande ever hit the ground ? I know what happened in the feat, as that's initially the feat I was talking about when I said she can create and FRS level explosion. Sakura may be stronger than kid Tsunade by statements, so war arc Tsunade should atleast be able to match that.



She hit Madara's Susanoo and never created the shockwave as strong as that of Sakura. She kicked Madara and didnt break his bones. She is definetely not as strong as Byakugo Sakura. Take a look at here:

*Spoiler*: __ 










Her Byakugo chakra was released there.

*Not even close to what Sakura was capable of.*



> At 50+m, the Sannin can comfortably react to his V2 movements. And as long as they force him into free fall, they beat him decisively.



Prove that. Bring here their speed feats. I wanna see them. 



> Those feats didn't prove anything? In one feat he hit an off guard killer bee, and in the other two he hit KCM Naruto with his flicker, which is indeed really fast . Tsunade has equal striking feats compared to that, she just doesn't flicker nearly as fast, which would allow bee and Naruto to avoid her movements. If she instantly appeared in their faces and punched they would be fucked.



In order to punch you have to move your hand, dont you think? Why KCM Naruto couldnt do anything about Ei's speed at the moments when Raikage was moving his hands? Why could he grab Bee's 8 Tails tail and use his hands + body muscles (hands, first of all) to throw Bee at KCM Naruto, who could easily block that (at least put his hands in front to block) but didnt? 

Equal striking speed feats? Bring them here.



> Yes he reacted because of ms pre cog, but he could only react to his arm swing. Not his movement speed.
> 
> Cause she can.



He was staying there because he knew that he cant hit Ei and then he came up with an idea of protecting himself with Black Flames. How about that?


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## FlamingRain (May 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> She hit Madara's Susanoo and never created the shockwave as strong as that of Sakura.



Much of that "shockwave" Sakura caused is dust and dirt settled on the ground being sent flying upwards when the ground was busted open- that's why there's no comparable "shockwave" when Sakura tries to strike Madara (because she didn't strike _the ground_). Tsunade hit Susano'o _up into the air_ from the top of a Mokuton branch.

The Ōkashō Sakura performed against the Jūbling fodders that provoked Hashirama's remark that Sakura _might_ hit harder than Tsunade apparently failed to convince Shizune that the distance healing technique was a given. Tsunade'd been the only one to perform the distance healing technique prior, so if Shizune was more impressed by _it_ than that explosion she'd seen earlier, it implies that Tsunade is capable of the same earth-shattering feat because she is capable of pulling off _more_ challenging feats than that.

Sakura _at best_ strikes _marginally_ harder than Tsunade _if at all_.


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## Veracity (May 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> She has never sustained that kind of injury. She was at a brink of death after Madara cut off her lower body part. Head, chopped off, is a much more lethal injury. But even if she can somehow survive, she would be able to rely only on summoned Katsuyu, if there will be such. Without Katsuyu, she wont be able to do anything because her brain will be separated from her body nervous system. She will be like Shinnok from MK10 after Raiden took off his head.
> 
> And wait, feats and statements? Bring them here.
> 
> ...



She was at the brink of the death because she almost exhausted from chakra, Ya know ... The thing that usual outright kills ninja. How effective Byakago is stems from the amount of chakra she has. If she's beheaded with 0 chakra then I agree that she dies. Like I said. She doesn't need to be conscious to regenerate nor does her nervous system have to actually work. All she needs is chakra and Byakago activated, and it automatically heals her without having to activate anything. That's the big difference between that and SS.

Intercostal lungs and muscles severed, any major signs of pain? Having your intercostal lungs severed actually supersedes the effects of drowning, and she could still blitz Kabuto depsite that. 
(1)
Midsection destroyed, any signs of inability to fight?. She blizted ORO off the ground after being in they condition. 
(1)
Notice how all those feats were Tsuande prior to actually training and without Byakugo or any regeneration actually active. 
Being stabbed and Yasaka'd, any signs of real pain ?No: (1)
Being split in half, and still taking the pain like a bad ass. She did so with her spinal cord snapped, her spilled on the ground, heart and lungs destroyed, and without chakra OR REGENERATION.
(1)
Are you telling me Byakago enhanced fresh Tsunade is gonna die from a separated head but chakra exhausted Tsuande without regeneration survives that? 

It's also stated in the DB that Tsuande will never die in a battle, and she even claims so her self: (1)
So yeah, I'm pretty sure anyone would take all those feats, statements and claims over what you have proven here. Which is pretty much just your opinion at this point.

By the time he's already on top of Katsuyu Tsuande will have already activated Byakago and prepped a plan. Or she could simply tell Katsuyu to split up, as Ays running up Katsuyu, putting them both in free fall. Or morph into Katsuyu to outlast Ay, or wear mini Katsuyu so that Ays chop doesn't go completely through her body. ~ She has more than 10 times the amount of time Minato did to react to Ays intial charge. Ay is fast, but considering he has to charge every shunshin up, he can only get one attack off at a time before Tsuande. 

That's the thing you don't understand, having to activate his cloak, enter V2 and then pump the chakra for his flicker isn't instant or even close. It may not be a large time frame, buts more than enough for Jirayia to touch the ground one time and up the distance by 10. From there, assuming Ay immediately flickers, Jirayia has 10 times the time to react as Minato did in his encounter with Ay. He can get off any fucking Justu he wants. Atleast creating a Bunshin, and escaping with the other.

But that's Ay going to do a giant hydra snake? Ays eventually going to get hit, he might hit oro 100 times to one , but eventually he's going to trip up similarly to how he tripped up against the Buddah. He's not a god. He has to pump chakra for everyone of his flickers, he's eventually going to get tagged while oro can get hit as much as he wants basically.

You act like I don't know both of their feats? When an opponent tends to hit something extremely durable, it doesn't normally create shockwaves. That's usually an effect of punching the ground, because the rock tends to be less durable than people in the manga. It's why sakura doesn't create any big shockwaves here:  (1)
(1)
So yeah....
And Tsunade surely obliterated his Sussano If you mean here: (1)
She actually kicked him hard enough to send him out his own Sussano which is rare.

Why would the Sannin have reactions 5x worse than Minato ? They react to Bjuui enhanced ninja, and even a speedster like Madara himself. They might have lesser reactions to Minato and will definitely get blizted at 10m. But at 50m+? No..

Yes, but Naruto and bee are only fast enough to put up guards when Ay is right in there faces( same with Tsuande), and Ays flicker is so fast that he appears in his opponents face instantly. He also throws his punch as he flickers, so it's like reacting to half the speed of his strike as he appears instantly in your face. Tsuande would be the same way if her flicker was god like. She'd be blitzing everyone. 

The moment when Ay was just moving his hands ? When was this. If you mean this: (1)
Then they were already in mid air, there was nothing Naruto could do but block.

What's the bee feat you are talking about ?

I mean Naruto could actually react to his strike up close to form a seal, and bee could intercept his punch: Link removed
Link removed

And I've always proved the Tsunade feat that shows they are equal.

He came up with the entire idea during Ays flicker ? Is narutos thought process godlike now ? I mean like wayyyyy higher than Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto or Minato ? He already had that plan thought, he just wasnt quick enough to activate the flames until Ays flicker came to a stop and he had to swing his arm to actually attack Sasuke.


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## StarWanderer (May 16, 2015)

> She was at the brink of the death because she almost exhausted from chakra, Ya know ... The thing that usual outright kills ninja. How effective Byakago is stems from the amount of chakra she has. If she's beheaded with 0 chakra then I agree that she dies. Like I said. She doesn't need to be conscious to regenerate nor does her nervous system have to actually work. All she needs is chakra and Byakago activated, and it automatically heals her without having to activate anything. That's the big difference between that and SS.



So her head is gonna be flying up to her body to attach itself to it so Tsunade can regenerate? Or what? Even if she can survive that, she needs Katsuyu to attach her chopped off head back to her body. And even if Katsuyu regenerate that injury, Tsunade will be out of the batle for a long time period, during which Raikage can kill Jiraya. Also, Raikage can cut Tsunade to peaces so she cant regenerate at all, tear apart her head and later her body etc. 



> It's also stated in the DB that Tsuande will never die in a battle



Databook contains some realy stupid statements. I remember myself giving example of those in Battledome. Tsunade can be killed if her body is completely obliterated. She is not completely unkillable. 



> By the time he's already on top of Katsuyu Tsuande will have already activated Byakago and prepped a plan. Or she could simply tell Katsuyu to split up, as Ays running up Katsuyu, putting them both in free fall. Or morph into Katsuyu to outlast Ay, or wear mini Katsuyu so that Ays chop doesn't go completely through her body. ~ She has more than 10 times the amount of time Minato did to react to Ays intial charge. Ay is fast, but considering he has to charge every shunshin up, he can only get one attack off at a time before Tsuande.



Until you can provide Tsunade's speed feats, all of that is just your theory. She is not Minato. And that fight with Minato happened when Ei was not even close to what he became later. Tsunade cant react to V2 Ei's movement. She cant react to so his V2 speed at all. 



> That's the thing you don't understand, having to activate his cloak, enter V2 and then pump the chakra for his flicker isn't instant or even close. It may not be a large time frame, buts more than enough for Jirayia to touch the ground one time and up the distance by 10. From there, assuming Ay immediately flickers, Jirayia has 10 times the time to react as Minato did in his encounter with Ay. He can get off any fucking Justu he wants. Atleast creating a Bunshin, and escaping with the other.



The thing is - they can do some jutsu until he activated V2, but after he activates it, their attacks are gonna be useless and he will speedblitz. Jiraya cant do any jutsu he wants after Raikage went V2, because he is gonna be blitzed. I'll wait for you to bring here Jiraya's speed feats.



> But that's Ay going to do a giant hydra snake? Ays eventually going to get hit, he might hit oro 100 times to one , but eventually he's going to trip up similarly to how he tripped up against the Buddah. He's not a god. He has to pump chakra for everyone of his flickers, he's eventually going to get tagged while oro can get hit as much as he wants basically.



Orochimaru may be veyr hard to kill, he may outlust Ei, but he cant react to V2 speed. Thats why he wont be a factor while Ei will be speedblitzing Tsunade and Jiraya.



> You act like I don't know both of their feats? When an opponent tends to hit something extremely durable, it doesn't normally create shockwaves. That's usually an effect of punching the ground, because the rock tends to be less durable than people in the manga. It's why sakura doesn't create any big shockwaves here: Link removed
> Link removed
> So yeah....
> And Tsunade surely obliterated his Sussano If you mean here: Link removed
> She actually kicked him hard enough to send him out his own Sussano which is rare.



She created a shockwave which shattered rock masses 100x of times larger than Madara's Susanoo. That hit of Sakura was almost mountain busting. Raikage's chops were not 100x times weaker than Tsunade's punches and they were not more destructive than Raikage's Liger Bomb, yet Liger Bomb never shattered the ground like that. If Tsunade's hits were as strong as Sakura's, there would have been a shockwave after she shattered Madara's ribcage, which was damaged even by Naruto's Rasengan. 



> Why would the Sannin have reactions 5x worse than Minato ? They react to Bjuui enhanced ninja, and even a speedster like Madara himself. They might have lesser reactions to Minato and will definitely get blizted at 10m. But at 50m+? No..
> 
> Yes, but Naruto and bee are only fast enough to put up guards when Ay is right in there faces( same with Tsuande), and Ays flicker is so fast that he appears in his opponents face instantly. He also throws his punch as he flickers, so it's like reacting to half the speed of his strike as he appears instantly in your face. Tsuande would be the same way if her flicker was god like. She'd be blitzing everyone.



Young Ei has never demonstrated the speed level of Raikage Ei and tailed beast chakra level. So i dont realy care about his fight with Minato.

Tsunade never reacted to Edo Madara. There were just another 4 kage level ninjas on her side. But in fact, she has never reacted to Edo Madara.

Nobody among the Sannin possesses reaction speed good enough to react to V2 Ei, unless you can bring here their feats that are good enough to suggest otherwise.

Do not compare Tsunade, who is poor in terms of speed feats, to KCM Naruto and Bee. Even in Databooks, she has a low speed stat.



> The moment when Ay was just moving his hands ? When was this. If you mean this: Link removed
> Then they were already in mid air, there was nothing Naruto could do but block.



Naruto was on the ground sometimes, yet couldnt counter-attack, or dodge and had to just block his punches. And Tsunade is not in KCM Naruto's speed class.



> I mean Naruto could actually react to his strike up close to form a seal, and bee could intercept his punch: Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> And I've always proved the Tsunade feat that shows they are equal.
> ...



He could activate it from the start and not risk of getting hit.


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## Veracity (May 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> So her head is gonna be flying up to her body to attach itself to it so Tsunade can regenerate? Or what? Even if she can survive that, she needs Katsuyu to attach her chopped off head back to her body. And even if Katsuyu regenerate that injury, Tsunade will be out of the batle for a long time period, during which Raikage can kill Jiraya. Also, Raikage can cut Tsunade to peaces so she cant regenerate at all, tear apart her head and later her body etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No. Her body would regenerate a new head considering the Byakago seal is completely on her body . It wouldn't incapacitate her for any more than like 30 seconds. The only way I can see him putting her out for awhile is if he decapitated her and proceeded to chop her body up into small sections. Which gives the other Sannin a giant gap to capitalize on. And that's only assuming Ays initial strike is aimed for beheading, or if Tsunade attempts to to engage him head on instead of supporting the team or outlasting him.

She can be killed I do agree, but she has the feat and statements to assume she wouldn't die from being decapitated and that was my initial point.

Are you gonna prove that Ay got faster or are you just gonna make that statement? And I don't have to provide feats, cause clearly she isn't as reflexive as Minato. But you seem to think she's 5x less reflexive? Tf? Do you comprehend how much slower that is? That's like Part 1 Shikamaru reactions lol. If you honestly thinking Ay is blitzing anyone from 150 feet away than we're just gonna have to disagree to agree.

He doesn't need speed feats? Stop asking for shit that's irrelevant. If Ay is in free fall, than Jirayia can attack him with any attack from the floor. And getting Ay free fall isn't hard. It's as simple as casting Yomi Nomi or de summoning Bunta once he's on top. You act like Ay has never once been hit, this is kinda the biggest over estimation I've ever seen.

Except he's not going to be speedblizting anyone when Tsunade can Morph into Katusyu, and Jirayia can use Kage Bunshin and phase into the ground. They all can outlast him, or atleast get him airborne.

Lolol. Raikage's chop did even scratch Madaras Sussano, and Tsuande went right through it. Raikage's V2 shunshin punch didn't even scratch Madara, while Tsuande obliterated his body. There is a very large gap between Tsuande and Raikage.

What are you talking about like damn ? If she kicked Madaras Sussano, a large part of the impact goes straight into the Sussano, him flying out and creating a sakura level shockwave would mean she kicked the Sussano with city level punching force. The damage also travels through Madara as he's the enemy and reduces the crater. It's why Riduko Naruto can punch Madara dead on and not make a huge ass crater.

Madaras Sussano was hardly damaged by narutos car sized resengan. A base resengan carves through stone and mountains like butter. So a resengan of that size, being enhanced by Onnoki pushing Madara into it would pack a shit Ton of power. But clearly still weaker than Tsuande or sakura.

Do you got the evidence to prove Ay actually is faster when he's close to 50 as opposed to in his 20's. I mean that's not even logical...

She reacted to his 5 clones attacking her for hours... She also landed a clean hit on his Mokuton Bunshin so....

Reacting to Raikage at 50m+ isn't impressive. Any low kage + can do it. Now once he closed the gap it depends on versatility.

I don't think you actually know what makes Naruto in KCM a speedster. His CQC ability isn't that great. If he wasn't using dashes or flickers, he would get wrecked by Tsuande in a taijjstu match. He's not that fast in CQC, he just has a really fast flicker and can activate his flicker real quick.

But you claim the DB is trash ? Her DB stat is from the Pain Arc, and the speed stat doesn't cover how fast a ninja can flicker. It's raw speed.

I mean I asked for the feat .. So can you provide it?

Activate what?


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## Rocky (May 16, 2015)

The effort it must take to write all that on a cell.

Damn kid.


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## Veracity (May 16, 2015)

It's actually not too bad considering I don't multi quote( and can't on a cell) and just type everything from my notes. Its way easier than waiting for the slow ass Internet browser to register how fast I type. It would probably take like close to 2 hours to type something as long as my last post if I didn't use my notes. But it also means I have hundreds of essay length notes that I cant actually delete on my iPhone.


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## Rocky (May 16, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> and just type everything from my notes.



Mother of god. I never thought of this.

I would probably type in a messenger though (to avoid making a note), but it doesn't really matter to me either way.


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## StarWanderer (May 16, 2015)

> No. Her body would regenerate a new head considering the Byakago seal is completely on her body . It wouldn't incapacitate her for any more than like 30 seconds. The only way I can see him putting her out for awhile is if he decapitated her and proceeded to chop her body up into small sections. Which gives the other Sannin a giant gap to capitalize on. And that's only assuming Ays initial strike is aimed for beheading, or if Tsunade attempts to to engage him head on instead of supporting the team or outlasting him.
> 
> She can be killed I do agree, but she has the feat and statements to assume she wouldn't die from being decapitated and that was my initial point.



Prove that she can grow back her head in a 30 seconds time period. 

He can chop off her head and then vertically cut her body in 2 parts with another chop. With V2 speed, he can do that before any of other Sannin can react. And of course his initial strike will be to her neck, because the knowledge is full in this thread.



> Are you gonna prove that Ay got faster or are you just gonna make that statement? And I don't have to provide feats, cause clearly she isn't as reflexive as Minato. But you seem to think she's 5x less reflexive? Tf? Do you comprehend how much slower that is? That's like Part 1 Shikamaru reactions lol. If you honestly thinking Ay is blitzing anyone from 150 feet away than we're just gonna have to disagree to agree.
> 
> He doesn't need speed feats? Stop asking for shit that's irrelevant. If Ay is in free fall, than Jirayia can attack him with any attack from the floor. And getting Ay free fall isn't hard. It's as simple as casting Yomi Nomi or de summoning Bunta once he's on top. You act like Ay has never once been hit, this is kinda the biggest over estimation I've ever seen.



Young Ei has no impressive feats at all. Raikage Ei has lots of feats. Its up to you to prove that during 17 years time period, Raikage didnt train and stayed the same. Show me at least one instance where young Ei uses tailed beast level chakra.

Will you bring here some of Tsunade's feats? I am waiting. 

Thats *IF* he is in a free fall. If he is not, he is gonna speedblitz Jiraya without any problem at all. He is gonna travel on Gamabunta up to Jiraya to speedblitz him there. Or he can attack Jiraya first to nerfe teams offensive potential. If so, then Jiraya has no chance of surviving. 

I act like there is a speed gap so huge that neither Sannin can react to Raikage's V2 speed.



> Except he's not going to be speedblizting anyone when Tsunade can Morph into Katusyu, and Jirayia can use Kage Bunshin and phase into the ground. They all can outlast him, or atleast get him airborne.
> 
> Lolol. Raikage's chop did even scratch Madaras Sussano, and Tsuande went right through it. Raikage's V2 shunshin punch didn't even scratch Madara, while Tsuande obliterated his body. There is a very large gap between Tsuande and Raikage.



Raikage can speedblitz Tsunade before she can morph into Katsuyu, or speedblitz Jiraya before he can make a shadow clone and phase into the ground. Even if Jiraya can make a shadow clone, then both his clone and himself will get speedblitzed. He doent need to go airborne - he can shunshin on their summonings, or just on the ground. 

Raikage cracked his Susanoo, as i remember. And Tsunade never obliterated Madara's body - that was his Wood clone.



> What are you talking about like damn ? If she kicked Madaras Sussano, a large part of the impact goes straight into the Sussano, him flying out and creating a sakura level shockwave would mean she kicked the Sussano with city level punching force. The damage also travels through Madara as he's the enemy and reduces the crater. It's why Riduko Naruto can punch Madara dead on and not make a huge ass crater.



A lot of impact must have gone out of Susanoo and create a shockwave comparable to the one Sakura created. But that didnt happen. Hell, Naruto's Rasengan can damage Madara's ribcage yet it cant damage the ground the same way Sakura's punch can. Sakura's punch was stronger then anything Tsunade has ever shown.



> Madaras Sussano was hardly damaged by narutos car sized resengan. A base resengan carves through stone and mountains like butter. So a resengan of that size, being enhanced by Onnoki pushing Madara into it would pack a shit Ton of power. But clearly still weaker than Tsuande or sakura.



If Tsunade's hits are as strong as Sakura's, then she would have created shockwaves from hitting Madara's Susanoo's ribcage, which was damaged even by Naruto's rasengan, which cant produse the same kind of power as Sakura's punch.



> Do you got the evidence to prove Ay actually is faster when he's close to 50 as opposed to in his 20's. I mean that's not even logical...



He trained, improved his chakra control, chakra levels, gained experience. His Shunshin depends on his chakra. In his 40's, he had tailed beast level chakra. He never demonstrated that chakra level when he was young. 



> She reacted to his 5 clones attacking her for hours... She also landed a clean hit on his Mokuton Bunshin so....



Which  Madara created to fool 5 Kage.

And she would have been dead if not for her regeneration in a fight against Madara's clones.



> Reacting to Raikage at 50m+ isn't impressive. Any low kage + can do it. Now once he closed the gap it depends on versatility.



To V2 Raikage? LOL.



> I don't think you actually know what makes Naruto in KCM a speedster. His CQC ability isn't that great. If he wasn't using dashes or flickers, he would get wrecked by Tsuande in a taijjstu match. He's not that fast in CQC, he just has a really fast flicker and can activate his flicker real quick.



He was capable of fighting in CQC with Edo Itachi, for example. 



> But you claim the DB is trash ?



Not trash, but cant be trusted completely. 



> I mean I asked for the feat .. So can you provide it?



What feat?

I am still waiting for Tsunade's and Jiraya's speed feats.



> Activate what?



Black Flames.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Nice to you around again, Icegaze.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If A punches are sharp due to raiton element why didn't Madara hand get cut when he blocked A punch 

A forced his arm in Jugo , he didn't cut through the meat shield

Also if it had a sharp nature to it would be said in DB

Nice to be back and discuss with someone like you can't lie . Refreshing


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## Veracity (May 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Prove that she can grow back her head in a 30 seconds time period.
> 
> He can chop off her head and then vertically cut her body in 2 parts with another chop. With V2 speed, he can do that before any of other Sannin can react. And of course his initial strike will be to her neck, because the knowledge is full in this thread.
> 
> ...



She healed having her midsection destroyed by a Dimond cutting sword almost instantly: _killed_
With an inferior just back in part 1. She heals her head back in 10 seconds . I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying 30.

Katsuyu attached to Tsuandes body wouldn't allow Ays arm to go through Tsuande and everyone can react to 2 Ay swings + a flicker. But the flicker is the speedy part , not the arm swings . Tsuande can also just Morph into Katusyu and negate the whole interaction. From there on she splits Katusyu up and Ay is still in free fall considering he was atop Katsuyu to begin with .

? Old Ay has two impressive V2 feats and that's almost blitzing KCM Naruto and moving out of Sasukes field of vision . Young Raikage put Minato in the same position as KCM Naruto , and base Minato already has high level reactions soooo? 

That's not up to me are at all tf? You made the statement first , thus the burden of proof is one you to prove with panel statements or logic that Ay got any faster. Even though he trained, he was in peak condition during his interaction with Minato. Old is Ay is an old man nearing 50. His body movements would slow down logically. It's also up to you to prove that Ays chakra grew Higher in his old age . It's never been stated that a Shinobi's chakra capacity grows after they mature into an adult . 

Tsunade feats for what ? You're pulling at straws if you think the Sannins reactions are 5 TIMES inferior than Minato's.  I don't have to prove that . If you really want me to prove that with feats( which is actually impossible ) then you better get ready to prove every single obvious thing you have said since.

It's easy to get him in free fall when all the Sannin posses boss summoning and AOE moves. Is Jirayia gonna watch as Ay his cloak and flicker and then travels horizontally 30 feet and then vertically 300 feet ? Do you not think Jirayia can react at all? You seem to ignore that Ay doesn't do all that instantly. Jirayia can de-summon Bunta as Ays traveling up it , and put him in free fall.

No he cannot because all the Sannin have the reactions to react to Raikage at 100m away. Especially if he starts in base. Ay cannot tell the difference between a shadow clone which leaves a huge opening for the others to attack .

You remember wrong because he didn't at all: _killed_
Why would he damage his Sussano but not his body ? Wood clones have the same durabilty as the user so yeah .

Because the Sussano stopped all the impact ? Concession accepted or what? Cause you ignored my entire argument. Let me end this shit rn . Why didn't sakura create shockwave here: _killed_
Cause you seem to think punching extremely hard objects still creates shook waves when it doesn't. All the force has to go through that object so the shockwave is negated.

Prove all that with panel evidence. Prove his control got better. Prove his chakra levels got higher. And prove that his body didn't get weaker via old age.

It doesn't matter if she would have been dead. She still reacted to Edo Madara, which was my point. Of course she's going to get hit vs 5 Madaras when her flicker isn't that fast.

Yes.

That actually lowers your argument as edo Itachi doesn't have fast hands or good taijjstu skill. He would get wrecked by a taijustu master like Tsuande.

I agree though. The DB cannot be trusted .

The feats of Naruto reacting to Ay on ground.

But that wasn't the point .... The point was that Sasuke could only activate his flames in response to Ays arm speed and not his flicker speed.


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## Thunder (May 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> If A punches are sharp due to raiton element why didn't Madara hand get cut when he blocked A punch



Because Madara wears rubber gloves.  



> A forced his arm in Jugo , he didn't cut through the meat shield



The Raiton surrounding A's fist helped him accomplish that.



> Also if it had a sharp nature to it would be said in DB


It doesn't have to be said because it was shown, and we already know how the Raiton element works.



> Nice to be back and discuss with someone like you can't lie . Refreshing


Likewise.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2015)

Lol thunder maybe it is because madara can 

Tsunade would force Her arm through Jugo meat shield though . No raiton needed , any scans suggesting it helped 

If so why didn't it help against madara or when he grabbed Sasuke ? Should have cut Sasuke by just grabbing him


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## Thunder (May 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol thunder maybe it is because madara can



Exactly.



> Tsunade would force Her arm through Jugo meat shield though . No raiton needed , any scans suggesting it helped


Agreed. Tsunade did punch through Edo Madara who wears samurai armor. She's stronger than A though. Well, the databook does say Raiton Chakra Mode increases A's power, if I remember correctly.



> If so why didn't it help against madara or when he grabbed Sasuke ? Should have cut Sasuke by just grabbing him


If Raiton Chakra Mode worked like that A wouldn't be able to pick up anything while clad in it.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2015)

Yes it does say it increases A power
No cutting ability of raiton chakra cloak mentioned though which is my point


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## Thunder (May 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Yes it does say it increases A power
> No cutting ability of raiton chakra cloak mentioned though which is my point



Yet we've _seen_ A manipulate the Raiton chakra that surrounds his body to a high degree. 

A expresses shock here that Sasuke was able to _touch_  him while he's got Raiton Chakra Mode active. Yet Ōnoki rides on his  back. Clearly A can control if the armor damages you or not.

A made a very clean cut in Kubikiribōchō here which wouldn't have been possible if the Raiton chakra around his arm wasn't blade like. 

Right  when A is about to use Raigyaku Suihei on ribcage Susano, you can see  how the Raiton chakra is shaped into an extended blade here while his other arm isn't. 

As we already discussed A sent Raiton chakra into one hand, formed it into a blade, and sliced off his other arm here. It resembles a very _fine_ version of the chakra that surrounds his body in Raiton Chakra Mode. Almost like Chidori. 

A send a current of electricity through Suiton: Suriyūdan here.


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## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

> She healed having her midsection destroyed by a Dimond cutting sword almost instantly: ūinjutsu _at all_
> With an inferior just back in part 1. She heals her head back in 10 seconds . I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying 30.



That proves nothing. Regenerating after a midsection stab and a cut is nothing compared to growing back your head and a part of the neck. She needs to grow back a neck part of her spinal cord, a skull, a brain, which she has never regenerated in Manga and which could probably be the hardest thing to regenerate. 

So, i'll wait for you to give me a proof. 



> Katsuyu attached to Tsuandes body wouldn't allow Ays arm to go through Tsuande and everyone can react to 2 Ay swings + a flicker. But the flicker is the speedy part , not the arm swings . Tsuande can also just Morph into Katusyu and negate the whole interaction. From there on she splits Katusyu up and Ay is still in free fall considering he was atop Katsuyu to begin with .



Everyone? Give me a proof. KCM Naruto had problems of dodging Ei's hits, or running away from them. Lots of people had problems with that. 

Tsunade's head is gonna be chopped off. She cant do anything about V2 Ei doing that. The speed difference is way too high.



> ? Old Ay has two impressive V2 feats and that's almost blitzing KCM Naruto and moving out of Sasukes field of vision . Young Raikage put Minato in the same position as KCM Naruto , and base Minato already has high level reactions soooo?



Also, V2 Raikage Ei dodged Amaterasu.

Base Minato does not have reactions as good as KCM Naruto. His feats are not realy all that impressive. His speed level is at Sage Mode Naruto's speed level at max. 

V2 Raikage Ei is above young Ei.



> That's not up to me are at all tf? You made the statement first , thus the burden of proof is one you to prove with panel statements or logic that Ay got any faster. Even though he trained, he was in peak condition during his interaction with Minato. Old is Ay is an old man nearing 50. His body movements would slow down logically. It's also up to you to prove that Ays chakra grew Higher in his old age . It's never been stated that a Shinobi's chakra capacity grows after they mature into an adult .



Ok, young Ei is not as fast as Raikage Ei because he has never demonstrated that kind of speed and chakra level. See? 

His body may be old, but his Shunshin depends on his chakra. Young Ei has never demonstrated tailed beast chakra level. Young Ei has never demonstrated the kind of speed Raikage Ei demonstrated. There is nothing in the manga to suggest that young Ei is at the same level, or above Raikage Ei.



> Tsunade feats for what ? You're pulling at straws if you think the Sannins reactions are 5 TIMES inferior than Minato's. I don't have to prove that . If you really want me to prove that with feats( which is actually impossible ) then you better get ready to prove every single obvious thing you have said since.



What have you wrote to me? *"You made the statement first , thus the burden of proof is one you to prove"*. You made so many statements about *"10x time to react"*, about *"Jiraya can do any jutsu he wants"* and so on, and so on, but never gave me a proof of that. Give me a proof that The Sannin have good enough reaction speed to react in any way to Raikage's V2 speed. 



> It's easy to get him in free fall when all the Sannin posses boss summoning and AOE moves. Is Jirayia gonna watch as Ay his cloak and flicker and then travels horizontally 30 feet and then vertically 300 feet ? Do you not think Jirayia can react at all? You seem to ignore that Ay doesn't do all that instantly. Jirayia can de-summon Bunta as Ays traveling up it , and put him in free fall.



1. Ei does not emmediately slows down after a jump. 2. He can shunshin on their boss summons up to them. Raikage's body flicker even in V1 is so fast that KCM Naruto had problems of countering it. They may be fast enough to summon their summons before Raikage activates V2, but after that, on of The Sannin is gonna be blitzed.

Thats if he is fast enough to de-summon Bunta.




> No he cannot because all the Sannin have the reactions to react to Raikage at 100m away. Especially if he starts in base. Ay cannot tell the difference between a shadow clone which leaves a huge opening for the others to attack .



Both KCM Naruto and Bee couldnt overcome his V1 Shunshin (KCM Naruto did that only in the end). Neither Sannin possesses KCM Naruto's reaction speed. 

He speedblitz both Jiraya and a shadow clone. 



> You remember wrong because he didn't at all: ūinjutsu _at all_
> Why would he damage his Sussano but not his body ? Wood clones have the same durabilty as the user so yeah .



Oh, he damaged his Susanoo with Onoki's help. 



> Because the Sussano stopped all the impact ? Concession accepted or what? Cause you ignored my entire argument. Let me end this shit rn . Why didn't sakura create shockwave here: ūinjutsu _at all_
> Cause you seem to think punching extremely hard objects still creates shook waves when it doesn't. All the force has to go through that object so the shockwave is negated.



You are trying to use a *Juubidara* situation as a proof (thats a bad example). But you forget about the fact that her punch on the panel i have shown was almost mountain busting. Naruto's Rasengan, which has no chance of creating that much destruction and breaking those kind of rock masses, damaged Madara's ribcage. If Tsunade's hits were as strong as Sakura's, she would have created such a shockwave after breaking Madara's Susanoo.

Also, Sakura broke Kaguya's horn. 



> Prove all that with panel evidence. Prove his control got better. Prove his chakra levels got higher. And prove that his body didn't get weaker via old age.



Raikage Ei demonstrated plenty of speed feats and tailed beast level chakra. Young Ei demonstrated neither of those. Here you go. 



> It doesn't matter if she would have been dead. She still reacted to Edo Madara, which was my point. Of course she's going to get hit vs 5 Madaras when her flicker isn't that fast.



Edo Madara was playing with all 5 kage and there were 4 kage level shinobi helping her. She has never reacted to Edo Madara. I'd say that Edo Madara easily reacted to her.

Edo Madara can easily, effortlessly react to her sriking speed. He can, without any effort at all, avoid all her taijutsu moves. If she couldnt regenerate, Edo Madara would have easily knock her out in a taijutsu match under few moments.



> That actually lowers your argument as edo Itachi doesn't have fast hands or good taijjstu skill. He would get wrecked by a taijustu master like Tsuande.



Sick Itachi easily countered Hebi Sasuke's moves. So of course his hands are fast. Plus, he has MS precognition. 



> The feats of Naruto reacting to Ay on ground.



KCM Naruto, who's reaction speed is a lot better than any Sannin's reaction speed.



> But that wasn't the point .... The point was that Sasuke could only activate his flames in response to Ays arm speed and not his flicker speed.



He could activate them because he came up with a plan of protecting himself with Black Flames at that moment. If he thought about that earlier, he would activate flames earlier so Raikage has no chance of hitting him at all.

Anyway, the Sannin loses, badly.


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## Veracity (May 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> That proves nothing. Regenerating after a midsection stab and a cut is nothing compared to growing back your head and a part of the neck. She needs to grow back a neck part of her spinal cord, a skull, a brain, which she has never regenerated in Manga and which could probably be the hardest thing to regenerate.
> 
> So, i'll wait for you to give me a proof.
> 
> ...



Ok I'm gonna start debating like you are from now on so I don't waste my time 

Are you kidding me ? The damage is more severe but Tsuande regenerated that damage back with a inferior Justu back in part 1. What do I need to prove ? That she can't regenerate a head like she regenerates every single thing on her body ? You're grasping at straws here. I'm gonna start asking for you to PROVE EVERYTHING , and I guess we aren't going to be able to prove anything here .

Everyone at 10 times the distance? Yeah . 
Lots of people like who? 

The speed difference is too high? You say that all the time yet you still ignore that this is 10 times the distance as when he normally flickers. Do you not know that speed is distance x time ? Up the distance, and the time is lowered. It's common sense.

Okay that's cool. Provide some reaction feats from KCM Naruto to prove he's superior to Minato. Cause if Minato is in the Sage Naruto tier by your own admission, than his CQC reactions are better than KCM Naruto.

Nope. That's not proof at all? That's your own statement which doesn't mean anything cause it's not proof remember ? You say he didn't have Bjuii level chakra based on What? I don't rememeber Karin being there to say that. If it has to be said than Ay didn't have Bjuii chakra when he battled Madara because it wasn't stated. Prove that shunshin is only a result of a chakra since you made that statement.

10 times the distance = 10 times the time to react. Last time I checked, Minato's reactions werent 10 times better a legendary Sannin so nope. They all have the ability the touch the ground and cast one seal. It's as simple as that.

What does the first thing have to do with anything ? 

Jirayia has 10 times the amount of time to react . He can do those two things comfortably and get Ay in free fall easily.

Feats from bee and KCM Naruto that prove their reactions at that time were superior to a Sannin members ?

Because Jirayia and his KB are going to be right beside eachother ? lol

Concession accepted again .
She punches the ground = mountain buster. Punches Madara ? She gets no shockwave. Has Tsunade ever punched the ground  or Kaguya ?So what's the damn point?

Resengan does a different type of damage than a punch sooo...

Raikage developed more chakra ? Panels ? Evidence ?

That's not providing the feat and you still have to prove that that KCM Naruto has better reactions than the Sannin.

That's still my point ? He still couldn't activate the flames in response to his flicker but only his arm speed. 

You gotta alotta proving to do lmao.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Yet we've _seen_ A manipulate the Raiton chakra that surrounds his body to a high degree.
> 
> A expresses shock here that Sasuke was able to _touch_  him while he's got Raiton Chakra Mode active. Yet Ōnoki rides on his  back. Clearly A can control if the armor damages you or not.
> 
> ...



A was surprised Sasuke jutsu by passed his armor . He wasn't surprised about someone being able to be in physical contact with him. Ask a translator to help there . But he was surprised to be harmed when clad in armor not touched 

If not he won't have or need grappling techniques 

Sending raiton current again is a separate jutsu and has nothing to do with his RCM mode .

A broke suigetsu sword because Bee had already chipped half of it . The force of his arm swinging did the rest . It had nothin to do with his arm being sharp due to raiton 

Take a cracked piece of metal and swing and a hammer on it . It would break wouldn't it


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## LostSelf (May 17, 2015)

Ei can make his arm sharp... The man cleanly cut his own freaking durable arm. As well as Hachibi's horn. He has cutting properties.

With Onoki here it's just a matter of time before either Jiraiya or Tsunade goes down IMO.


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## Thunder (May 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> A was surprised Sasuke jutsu by passed his armor . He wasn't surprised about someone being able to be in physical contact with him. Ask a translator to help there . But he was surprised to be harmed when clad in armor not touched



I'm not sure what the correct translation is here. I can see how that interpretation would fit though.



> Sending raiton current again is a separate jutsu and has nothing to do with his RCM mode .


Do you have any proof of this? Because all of A's Raiton feats involve Raiton Chakra Mode. A sent a current of electricity through the water. Just like he sends electric currents through his own body to charge his synapse. 

The databook doesn't say it's a separate jutsu.



> A broke suigetsu sword because Bee had already chipped half of it . The force of his arm swinging did the rest . It had nothin to do with his arm being sharp due to raiton


You completely ignored the scan I posted which shows how A's arm is clearly shaped into an _extended blade_ _of Raiton_ when he performs chopping motions. 

My point is the cut on the sword was very _precise_. If you snap off a piece of metal it's probably not going to look like a _another sword_ did the damage. Bee sliced through roughly half of the blade with his_ Raiton_ coated sword while A finished it off with his _Raiton_ coated hand.

But it's not like my entire argument rides on this proof. I've shown you how A cut his own _flesh_ off with Raiton. He can do the same in battle.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2015)

Lol grim I've reported for flambait 
If I reply you 
You will cry to mods as usual 
Please don't quote or respond to my post 
Thanks 

For all A cutting ability madara arm was fine , rib cage was cracked by impact not cutting ability 

But hey a troll will always be a troll

@thunder sorry just saw your post I got caught up with some insect 
Maybe A IC doesn't use said cutting ability . Otherwise like I said madara arm would have Been cut clean through 

He wouldn't need to have forced his arm in jugo . Rakiri will run straight through . However you would notice A actually forcing his arm , if it were sharp it wouldbt require that much force now would it


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Raiton and Futon are both implied to have penetrative forces.

 Therefore, Ei's Raiton Armor has piercing qualities. The reason why Edo Madara wasn't pierced through is obviously because he has high physical strength which is clear based on the fact that his Alive self can push back SM Naruto with ease. Granted, that was him in his physically superior body, but if he lacked high physical strength as an Edo, that would not have mattered when he was Alive. His Edo self also managed to block Base Tsunade's kick while Muu was sent flying from Base Ei's hit despite intercepting it.

 Well, that, and the fact that Ei was relying on sheer force rather than just piercing through his body. If he wanted to pierce through Madara, he would've resorted to jabbing him like he did against Sasuke's Susano'o instead of a direct punch.


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## Thunder (May 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @thunder sorry just saw your post I got caught up with some insect
> Maybe A IC doesn't use said cutting ability . Otherwise like I said madara arm would have Been cut clean through



Madara blocked Tsunade's kick and Tsunade is canonically stronger than A. Madara's fist wasn't cut through for the same reason Tsunade's flying kick failed to damage Madara. The block reduced the damage and A didn't have his fist there for long.

A's fist wasn't shaped into a blade there anyway.



> He wouldn't need to have forced his arm in jugo . Rakiri will run straight through . However you would notice A actually forcing his arm , if it were sharp it wouldbt require that much force now would it


With Chidori / Raikiri you must stab your hand through the target. It doesn't just cut shit with no force behind it like any blade. And let's not forget A had to punch through several layers of CS2 armor _and_ Jūgo's tough body. Notice how there's a blast of electrical energy when A puts his fist though Jūgo.


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## Veracity (May 17, 2015)

Thunder no just no.

Tsuandes muscles were ripped apart during the transfer. It worked similar to this: 2

It doesn't matter if Madara would have blocked or not. She obliterated his Sussano, and turned his body into particles with a punch. It's clear that Madara could never survive a full powered strike from Tsuande.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Thunder no just no.
> 
> Tsuandes muscles were ripped apart during the transfer. It worked similar to this: 2
> 
> It doesn't matter if Madara would have blocked or not. She obliterated his Sussano, and turned his body into particles with a punch. It's clear that Madara could never survive a full powered strike from Tsuande.



 So suddenly Tsunade isn't invincible?

 Good to know, good to know.


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## Veracity (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So suddenly Tsunade isn't invincible?
> 
> Good to know, good to know.



But that still doesn't mean she was even close to death.... I don't see the logic behind your post lol but to each his own .


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> But that still doesn't mean she was even close to death.... I don't see the logic behind your post lol but to each his own .



 Your logic:

 "Tsunade can still function and fight with her head chopped off, but she can't fight at full strength when her muscles are being torn even with Genesis Rebirth."


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## StarWanderer (May 17, 2015)

> Ok I'm gonna start debating like you are from now on so I don't waste my time



Fine.



> Are you kidding me ? The damage is more severe but Tsuande regenerated that damage back with a inferior Justu back in part 1. What do I need to prove ? That she can't regenerate a head like she regenerates every single thing on her body ? You're grasping at straws here. I'm gonna start asking for you to PROVE EVERYTHING , and I guess we aren't going to be able to prove anything here .



She has never regenerated her brain and the brain is probably the hardest thing to regenerate. She has never regenerated such an injury.




> Everyone at 10 times the distance? Yeah .
> Lots of people like who?



Like MS Sasuke and his team, KCM Naruto, Bee.

And i am still waiting for your proof about "everyone" part.



> The speed difference is too high? You say that all the time yet you still ignore that this is 10 times the distance as when he normally flickers. Do you not know that speed is distance x time ? Up the distance, and the time is lowered. It's common sense.



Neither Sannin has precognition, neither Sannin has reaction speed good enough to react to V2 Ei, neither Sannin has movement speed good enough. 



> Okay that's cool. Provide some reaction feats from KCM Naruto to prove he's superior to Minato. Cause if Minato is in the Sage Naruto tier by your own admission, than his CQC reactions are better than KCM Naruto.



He reacted to Raikage Ei, who is a lot faster then young Ei and dodged his V2 fastest hit via Shunshin, not Hiraishin. Plus his other fights, including Edo Itachi. KCM Naruto surpassed base Minato by a good margin. 

Maybe i was wrong and Minato is not even at that tier. Minato is poor in terms of speed feats. He is overrated.



> Nope. That's not proof at all? That's your own statement which doesn't mean anything cause it's not proof remember ? You say he didn't have Bjuii level chakra based on What? I don't rememeber Karin being there to say that. If it has to be said than Ay didn't have Bjuii chakra when he battled Madara because it wasn't stated. Prove that shunshin is only a result of a chakra since you made that statement.



Based on the fact that he never demonstrated that kin dof chakra level. It was confirmed that Raikage Ei had tailed beast level chakra. And not only by Karin, but by Kishimoto himself. At the same time, there is no proof Ei had such a chakra level 17 years ago. 

Shunshin is a ninjutsu, so of course it depends on chakra. And only on chakra. Raikage's body was extremely fit got his age and he had tailed beast level chakra. Young Ei has never demonstrated that chakra level.



> 10 times the distance = 10 times the time to react. Last time I checked, Minato's reactions werent 10 times better a legendary Sannin so nope. They all have the ability the touch the ground and cast one seal. It's as simple as that.



Minato has nothing to do with this unless you can prove young Ei was as fast, or faster then Raikage Ei. 

And casting one seal wont save either Jiraya, or Tsunade. Either of them will be blitzed.



> What does the first thing have to do with anything ?



Free Fall for a very short time period wont give The Sannin an emmediate victory.



> Jirayia has 10 times the amount of time to react . He can do those two things comfortably and get Ay in free fall easily.



Ei can comfortably save his speed if those free falls are on a very short distances. And i am waiting for Jiraya's reaction speed feats.



> Feats from bee and KCM Naruto that prove their reactions at that time were superior to a Sannin members ?



Bee fought MS Sasuke and his team, KCM Naruto could react to V1 Ei, which itself is a good feat and later he fought with Edo Itachi while his numerous clones were active. 

I asked you to give me Sannin's feats before. So bring them here.



> Because Jirayia and his KB are going to be right beside eachother ? lol



Close to each other. And Jiraya will make himself weaker because in order to make a shadow clone, he has to split his chakra.



> Concession accepted again .



You cant beat me in this debate yet you are talking about some concessions. Whatever.



> She punches the ground = mountain buster. Punches Madara ? She gets no shockwave. Has Tsunade ever punched the ground or Kaguya ?So what's the damn point?



What is more durable? Edo Madara's imperfect Susanoo or his Limbo clones?

What is more durable? Kaguya's horn, or Edo Madara's imperfect Susanoo?



> Resengan does a different type of damage than a punch sooo...



Sakura's hit has a lot more force then Rasengan, seeing how strong her hits were. 



> Raikage developed more chakra ? Panels ? Evidence ?



I asked you for young Ei's feats yet you cant bring here anything. Raikage Ei is a lot better then young Ei with chakra unless you can bring here young Ei's feats.



> That's not providing the feat and you still have to prove that that KCM Naruto has better reactions than the Sannin.



You still have to bring here Sannin's reaction speed feats. 



> That's still my point ? He still couldn't activate the flames in response to his flicker but only his arm speed.



It would have been smarter for him to activate flames right after Raikage started to Shunshin around. 



> You gotta alotta proving to do lmao.



The same i can tell about you. And, you gotta bring here alotta feats lmao.


----------



## Veracity (May 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Your logic:
> 
> "Tsunade can still function and fight with her head chopped off, but she can't fight at full strength when her muscles are being torn even with Genesis Rebirth."





Go ahead and directly quote exactly where I said that. I'll wait for it. And you should probably realize she activated  SS after the transfer and after she kicked Madara. 

Tsuande surviving being torn completely in half with her guts destroyed + spilled on the ground with close to 0 chakra without any active regeneration for hours PLUS the hype that she will basically never die in battle easily leads the reader to believe Tsuande won't die from decapitation. Especially wondering Byakago regenerates instantly without seals and is placed all across her body.


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## UchihaX28 (May 17, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Go ahead and directly quote exactly where I said that. I'll wait for it. * And you should probably realize she activated  SS after the transfer and after she kicked Madara.  *
> 
> Tsuande surviving being torn completely in half with her guts destroyed + spilled on the ground with close to 0 chakra without any active regeneration for hours PLUS the hype that she will basically never die in battle easily leads the reader to believe Tsuande won't die from decapitation. Especially wondering Byakago regenerates instantly without seals and is placed all across her body.





 This is what I get for posting without thinking.

 Let me get back to you when my stupidity wears off.


----------



## Veracity (May 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Fine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not a single panel provided I see.

She never has had the chance to. She has regenerated injuries just as bad with 0 chakra and without active regeneration. She can regenerate her Brain.

You don't need pre cog to react to everything. Ay, Minato , Naruto , bee, all don't have it yet they still react to stuff. They can't react to Ay up close. But at a distance ? Yeah.

Young Ay isn't slower than older Ay unless you provide panel evidence of such. Provide scans for all those KCM Naruto feats you just mentioned.

Minato the fastest ninja during his time is poor in speed feats ?

Nor was it stated he didn't ? Ay was claimed to have had Bjuii level chakras before that flashback came out. It's redundant to say he has Bjuii level chakra EVERYTIME he fights. But that's still not actual proof btw.

Not all Ninjustu relies solely on chakra. And even if it did, can you prove Ays chakra control got better with panel evidence ? 

Actually the burden of proof is on you tons who that young Ay is slower than older Ay and you haven't done that yet. One seal does wonders. It's enough time to deactivate said summon, or to morph into Katsuyu. Or to turn Jirayia into a shadow thus negating physical contact.

It also them to attack Ay which helps a victory. It also allows them to block his LoS and lose track of them.

That's too vague. That's literally as vague as me saying Jirayia fought pain or Tsuande fought Edo Madara. You're gonna have to specific and actually provide panels. Base jugo  intercepts V1 Ay with his speed. I'm pretty sure a Sannin member can cast a seal in that time frame.

Jirayia has enough chakra to become a sage. Splitting his chakra once doesn't fuck him up. And the distraction of a clone is so he can get away. They clearly won't be close .

Did sakura create a shockwave when she punched a limbo clone ? Yes or no ? 

What's more impressive, not budging a limbo clone or obliterating Sussano ?

What feats does Kaguyas horn have ? Itachi who has no strength feats casually cut off kabutos horn.

AoE doesn't matter if the mechanics of the Justu are different. What's stronger, an explosive tag or chidori ?

You can't ask me for young Ays feats because the burden of proof is on your first.

But he couldn't because he couldn't react to the flicker.


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## StickaStick (May 17, 2015)

Read some of the replies and I'm surprised some people are suggesting that Kakashi I.C. would opt to Kamui-blitz at the start of the match. Even during the War-Arc where Kakashi's control over the S-T barreir was noticeably improved, he never opted to use Kamui aggressively, but rather more as defensive resort and as a method of deduction (such as against Rinnegan Obito). 

If we're going to be fair, why wouldn't SM Jiraiya opt to Kawazu Naki-blitz at the opening bell, which he would be able to pull off even faster then Kakashi could his Kamui?


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


>



In terms of *combat speed* feats. There are lots of shinobi with reflexes and striking speed better than that of Minato. Take a look at EMS Madara, Hashirama, prime Obito, Tobirama, Might Gai, EMS Sasuke, BM Naruto, BSM Naruto. 



> Not a single panel provided I see.
> 
> She never has had the chance to. She has regenerated injuries just as bad with 0 chakra and without active regeneration. She can regenerate her Brain.



Just as bad? No, she has never regenerated injuries "just as bad". The only injury, very close to "just as bad", was when Madara cut her in 2 halfs. And there, she had to summon Katsuyu in order to regenerate.



> You don't need pre cog to react to everything. Ay, Minato , Naruto , bee, all don't have it yet they still react to stuff. They can't react to Ay up close. But at a distance ? Yeah.



I'd like to see Sasuke creating those flames just in time without his MS against V2 Ei. 



> Young Ay isn't slower than older Ay unless you provide panel evidence of such. Provide scans for all those KCM Naruto feats you just mentioned.



Young Ei is slower then Raikage Ei until you can prove that after 17 years gap, Ei stayed the same, or became slower. Bring here proofs, bring here young Ei's *feats*. I'll wait.

Scans for what? For him fighting Edo Itachi at a lot weaker state then when he fought Ei because of active shadow clones? For him reacting to V1 speed? I am sure you know about those facts already. I dont think i need to bring scans of that.

By the way. KCM Naruto dodged *Raikage Ei*'s fastest punch. With a *Shunshin*. Base Minato dodged *young Ei*'s fastest punch. With a *space-time ninjutsu which allows the user to teleport*. See the difference? 



> Minato the fastest ninja during his time is poor in speed feats ?



What highly-profiled ninja were alive during Minato's time? Old, past his prime Hiruzen? Young Ei? Young teenager Obito? All those shinobi were not in their prime at the moment. 

And yes - base Minato is poor in terms of striking speed feats, reaction speed feats, general reflexes, if we compare him with, lets say, alive Tobirama, who's Edo self has shown himself to be faster then KCM Minato. Or Hashirama, who, in his Sage Mode, can easily blitz base Minato without any trouble at all. Or EMS Sasuke, BM Naruto, BSM Naruto, EMS Madara. Even base Might Gai proved himself to be faster *in close combat* then Minato. 

His Shunshin is incredible, but his combat speed? Well, not bad, but not in a top-5 among shinobi thats for sure. 



> Nor was it stated he didn't ? Ay was claimed to have had Bjuii level chakras before that flashback came out. It's redundant to say he has Bjuii level chakra EVERYTIME he fights. But that's still not actual proof btw.



But that Ei was Raikage at that time and, probably, in his prime. Minato was a sensor yet he wasnt impressed with young Ei's chakra level at all. And there was no statement from Kishimoto about his chakra as when Raikage Ei faced KCM Naruto. 

*Feats*, dude. Let me speak the truth in a simplest way possible - *feats* rule the debates. Young Ei is completely featless and there is completely nothing that proves young Ei is at his later kage-self level. 



> Not all Ninjustu relies solely on chakra. And even if it did, can you prove Ays chakra control got better with panel evidence ?



There was a 17 years time gap. You cant just put them in the same level, when there are no statements about young Ei, no feats - nothing. Ei's chakra got better because Raikage Ei has a lot better feats with it. 

And of course his Shunshin depends a lot on chakra.



> Actually the burden of proof is on you tons who that young Ay is slower than older Ay and you haven't done that yet. One seal does wonders. It's enough time to deactivate said summon, or to morph into Katsuyu. Or to turn Jirayia into a shadow thus negating physical contact.



Ok, the proof is simple - young Ei is not at Raikage Ei's level because we can see impressive statements and feats from Ei after those 17 years, when he was Raikage, but see nothing about young Ei. Ei wasnt sitting on his chair doing nothing during those 17 years and his feats proves that. 

Its a big quastion if aithe rof the sannin has reaction speed good enough to do that. You havent brought any feats for the Sannin.



> It also them to attack Ay which helps a victory. It also allows them to block his LoS and lose track of them.



I will repeat myself - i agree that combined Sannin are above Ei, but a fight with Ei will be very hard for them because of the speed difference. 



> That's too vague. That's literally as vague as me saying Jirayia fought pain or Tsuande fought Edo Madara. You're gonna have to specific and actually provide panels. Base jugo intercepts V1 Ay with his speed. I'm pretty sure a Sannin member can cast a seal in that time frame.



Tsunade never reacted to Edo Madara in a direct confrontation. There were another 4 kage to help her. 

Aither Sannin can make 1 seal during Ei's V2 transformation. But after that, he will speedblitz The Sannin around. 

Pain is slower then Raikage Ei, and Jiraya has to activate his imperfect Sage Mode in order to become as fast as in his fight with Pain.



> Jirayia has enough chakra to become a sage. Splitting his chakra once doesn't fuck him up. And the distraction of a clone is so he can get away. They clearly won't be close



Ei can kill him before he becomes a Sage. 

And i want you to prove that 1 clone is enough to hold V2 Raikage and give Jiraya enough time to escape. 



> Did sakura create a shockwave when she punched a limbo clone ? Yes or no ?



I was the first one to ask you a quastion, you know. 



> What's more impressive, not budging a limbo clone or obliterating Sussano ?



And you didnt answer my quastion. Fine.



> What feats does Kaguyas horn have ? Itachi who has no strength feats casually cut off kabutos horn.



That horn is her bone which possesses her chakra, right?

With a *sword*.



> AoE doesn't matter if the mechanics of the Justu are different. What's stronger, an explosive tag or chidori ?



Her punch was almost mountain-busting. It had a mechanics of combined Chidori and explosive tag.



> You can't ask me for young Ays feats because the burden of proof is on your first.



Read what i wrote above. 



> But he couldn't because he couldn't react to the flicker.



The flicker has nothing to do with him just activating his flames. It would have been smarter for him to create flames around him from the start.


----------



## Thunder (May 18, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Thunder no just no.
> 
> Tsuandes muscles were ripped apart during the transfer. It worked similar to this: changed
> 
> It doesn't matter if Madara would have blocked or not. She obliterated his Sussano, and turned his body into particles with a punch. It's clear that Madara could never survive a full powered strike from Tsuande.




I'm not going to pretend like I know the exact nature of Tsunade's injuries there as if those details are privy to us, but I agree: it's certainly possible Tsunade's biceps muscles and abdomen muscles were torn during the transfer.

Still, we know Tsunade's flying kick was powerful because there was an explosion where the hit connected and Madara was _thrown back _several meters. We see similar explosions whenever Kishi wants to show how powerful strikes are (1) (2) (3) (4) (5). There's a lot of examples of this with A, I'm too lazy to look for others.

Tsunade has a 5 in strength and the databooks don't seem to account for that sort of chakra enhancement considering Sakura has only has 3 in strength. An even lower score than _Yamato_ (3.5). So even with her muscles torn Tsunade packs a wallop. 

Madara shrugs off A's full power punches as well, and while A is weaker than Tsunade he still hits_ very _hard. This is something Kyūbi Chakra Mode Naruto noted. Whereas Madara never expresses any discomfort when he blocks A's punch. Madara was more impressed by A's speed.

Whether Tsunade was weakened there or not doesn't change the overall point I was making with that post Likes boss, which is Madara handles impact damage when he blocks quite well. Clearly his physical condition is excellent. Remove Tsunade from the equation and my point still stands.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 18, 2015)

Madara did something like five back flips in the air to dissipate the force of Tsunade's kick.  That's both a tribute to the power of Tsunade's hit, and Madara's ability to handle impact damage and recover.

EDIT:  There were three loop de loops on panel, starting from off panel.  Maybe that's why I added a couple in my head.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

Sorry thunder whats the debate?
is anyone questioning how much stronger tsunade is than A?
in terms of physical strength I mean. she absolutely shits on him


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## Thunder (May 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry thunder whats the debate?
> is anyone questioning how much stronger tsunade is than A?
> in terms of physical strength I mean. she absolutely shits on him



My bad. I'll try to break this down. 

The core of our debate is still whether or not A can slice shit with Raiton. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you maintain that A _can't_  (despite there being plenty of evidence to the contrary), because you  think it's all strength related and Raiton isn't a factor. Your stance  on this doesn't fly with me because it's akin to claiming "Yōton Chakra Mode" doesn't retain all the properties of lava. That doesn't make a lick of sense.

My argument is it's a bit of both: strength is a factor and the Raiton is a factor.

We  got pulled into discussing strength because you noted how Madara took  A's hit without any damage. I also mentioned how Madara took Tsunade's  hit as well (Tsunade may have been weakened there though, which is where  Likes boss came in).

My point is Madara absorbs damage well when  he blocks regardless of who's attacking him. A's chops are more geared  towards slicing stuff, however A's fists can be "sharpened" to some  degree if he wants to break though strong barriers. I say this because A  demonstrated how good he is at manipulating the Raiton around his body  for a variety of purposes.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

Thunder said:


> My bad. I'll try to break this down.




thank you. 



> The core of our debate is still whether or not A can slice shit with Raiton. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you maintain that A _can't_  (despite there being plenty of evidence to the contrary), because you  think it's all strength related and Raiton isn't a factor. Your stance  on this doesn't fly with me because it's akin to claiming "Yōton Chakra Mode" doesn't retain all the properties of lava. That doesn't make a lick of sense.



no I didn't say he cant slice with ration. 

I said he cannot use ration to slice things while RCM is active since so far he has utterly failed to do so. Even the rib cage susanoo example. that was a simple karate chop 

yoton chakra mode retains its properties true, this was shown on panel the mode is used as an auto heat defense. 

A mode is too boost his physicality, clearly his RCM retains no shocking properties or he would have shocked sasuke as he grabbed him which would actually help or shocked madara when he punched him 



> My argument is it's a bit of both: strength is a factor and the Raiton is a factor.



I agree ration mode boost speed and strength 



> We  got pulled into discussing strength because you noted how Madara took  A's hit without any damage. I also mentioned how Madara took Tsunade's  hit as well (Tsunade may have been weakened there though, which is where  Likes boss came in).



tsunade without byakuyo though. when she had it she blew him in pieces 



> My point is Madara absorbs damage well when  he blocks regardless of who's attacking him. A's chops are more geared  towards slicing stuff, however A's fists can be "sharpened" to some  degree if he wants to break though strong barriers. I say this because A  demonstrated how good he is at manipulating the Raiton around his body  for a variety of purposes.



yes madara could block tsunade holding back her chakra, who is probably equal in strength to A

however with byakuyo she is far above. 

note once she activated it, madara opted for susanoo he didn't attempt a physical block. he must have realized, he cant be physically blocking after her first weakened kick 

to let you know how much tsunade is before byakuyo ill use sakura as an example to illustrate 

sakura before byakuyo cant even damage a juubling with her punch yet her punch is strong enough to kill a summon 

after byakuyo well you saw what she did, basically shockwave with a punch sending 100's flying 

tsunade will basically be doing that level of damage depending on how much she got stored in byakuyo 

in BD I assume 2.5 years. 

so ill say she is easily several times stronger than A. whereby I feel A cant kill her with a punch but she murders him with a back hand slap


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## Thunder (May 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> no I didn't say he cant slice with ration. I said he cannot use ration to slice things while RCM is active since so far he has utterly failed to do so. Even the rib cage susanoo example. that was a simple karate chop



And why do you claim that karate chop wasn't _also_ sharpened by Raiton chakra when we clearly see an extended blade of Raiton chakra around A's hand whenever he goes to chop something? I already showed you the panel. And does his father not do that same when he uses Kumite? Form a sharp blade _using_ the chakra that's already encasing his body? 

What you're basically saying is A cannot perform a _wannabe_ Chidori while Raiton Chakra Mode is active when that's exactly what his father does with Kumite, a jutsu _beyond_ Chidori power wise. Explain to me how that adds up. 



> yoton chakra mode retains its properties true, this was shown on panel the mode is used as an auto heat defense.


The same holds true for _every_ elemental chakra mode. Including A's. 



> A mode is too boost his physicality, clearly his RCM retains no shocking properties or he would have shocked sasuke as he grabbed him which would actually help or shocked madara when he punched him


_All_ chakra modes boost physicality. But when you add an element to the mix? You can damn well expect that chakra mode to function like the element its mixed with. Common fucking sense bro.

Sasuke is a Raiton user. Shocking him would do nothing. Darui already tried that and Sasuke displayed no visible signs when he molded chakra to diffuse Darui's Suiton enhanced Raiton: Kangekiha. It failed to accomplish anything. A having just gained that intel wouldn't attempt the same thing later on. It'd be pointless.

A's fist wasn't connected with Madara's body long enough to shock him. It seems to be something A controls anyway. As we saw when A channeled Raiton into Mei's Suriyūdan, A can shock someone if he desires. That's a most a basic application of Raiton chakra.

A _constantly_ stimulates his nervous system with electricity after all. 



> tsunade without byakuyo though. when she had it she blew him in pieces
> 
> yes madara could block tsunade holding back her chakra, who is probably equal in strength to A
> 
> ...


I agree. Byakugō Tsuande is stronger than base Tsunade.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

Thunder said:


> And why do you claim that karate chop wasn't _also_ sharpened by Raiton chakra when we clearly see an extended blade of Raiton chakra around A's hand whenever he goes to chop something? I already showed you the panel. And does his father not do that same when he uses Kumite? Form a sharp blade _using_ the chakra that's already encasing his body?



because it showed no effect of being sharpened. the impact on susanoo was due to physical strength. if the chop was sharpened why wasn't his punch. A father uses nikute. 

A father jutsu was also clearly emphasized as a cutting and piercing jutsu. A jutsu however wasn't 

yes you did shop the extended cloak when he went for the chop. 

My reply to that is why didn't his karate chop do anything against rib cage susanoo, also why did A talk about increasing his speed to *crush!!!* his defence which is quite indicative of him using physical force vs it being a piercing attack 

where he would have said pierce or cut through. sharp objects don't crush things



> What you're basically saying is A cannot perform a _wannabe_ Chidori while Raiton Chakra Mode is active when that's exactly what his father does with Kumite, a jutsu _beyond_ Chidori power wise. Explain to me how that adds up.



no he cannot while using his cloak because he hasn't and if he could he would. why on earth would you shunshin punch someone when you could go at them with a super speed piercing attack? think about it. madara would have been straight one shotted if A fought that way or could fight that way 

A father way of fighting in inherently different to A's and that's what I am saying. its not so much that its impossible for A to actually perform a cutting attack or piercing attack its that its not his style at all 

or like I said super speed chidori would be 100 times better than him punching madara and talking about crushing his defence with a chop



> The same holds true for _every_ elemental chakra mode. Including A's.
> 
> _All_ chakra modes boost physicality. But when you add an element to the mix? You can damn well expect that chakra mode to function like the element its mixed with. Common fucking sense bro.



not doubting that so much as how A uses it. which again I think you ignore, proven by your bringing up A dad who fights very differently to A



> Sasuke is a Raiton user. Shocking him would do nothing. Darui already tried that and Sasuke displayed no visible signs when he molded chakra to diffuse Darui's Suiton enhanced Raiton: Kangekiha. It failed to accomplish anything. A having just gained that intel wouldn't attempt the same thing later on. It'd be pointless.



shocking him didn't do nothing. sasuke was immobilized, he diffused the raiton, therefore wasn't numbed for long. however it did do something. hence why sasuke stood there to eat the genjutsu then be attacked by A. notice he made no physical movement to try to save himself 



> A's fist wasn't connected with Madara's body long enough to shock him. It seems to be something A controls anyway. As we saw when A channeled Raiton into Mei's Suriyūdan, A can shock someone if he desires. That's a most a basic application of Raiton chakra.



but it was long enough to pierce him so why didn't it. again flowing raiton chakra is something every raiton user can do. 

darui flowing raiton through his sword is a separate raiton jutsu from his others. same goes for sasuke and kakashi



> A _constantly_ stimulates his nervous system with electricity after all.
> 
> I agree. Byakugō Tsuande is stronger than base Tsunade.



true A does 

yes she is by a huge margin


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## Thunder (May 19, 2015)

Bro, I've tried all my jutsu here. My chakra is used up now. If all my rambling wasn't enough to convince you on this I don't think anything will. 

I just want to point out something real quick though. A's chop may have been sharpened by Raiton but that doesn't mean a great deal of force wasn't required to cut through a defense as sturdy Susano. Doesn't matter how sharp a blade is. You still need to swing it. Ask Mifune.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

this isn't exactly true though 

a sharp object wouldn't need a lot of force to pierce susanoo if its sharp enough. I don't see A dad having issues cutting through rib cage susanoo like butter, nor do I see raikiri having difficulties with it either 

A going on about crushing a defence with a chop vs cutting the defence led me to my conclusion. kakashi has never failed to pierce something with raikiri and then complain he wasn't moving fast enough to *crush the defence vs pierce said defence*



eitherway we will leave it as it is. what A got going for him is that he can chop his own arm off.


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## Thunder (May 19, 2015)

We're discussing A though, and A's chop isn't sharp enough to cut though strong  defenses like butter. He needs to put a lot of strength behind the chop as  well.

A dehorned Gyūki as well so I'm not sure why we're only focusing on A's feats verses Susano here. You don't make a *clean* *cut* like this if your attack isn't blade like.

If A was able to slice off the hardest part of Gyūki's body he can cut through _flesh_. Doesn't matter _how_ it happens.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

Thunder said:


> We're discussing A though, and A's chop isn't sharp enough to cut though strong  defenses like butter. He needs to put a lot of strength behind the chop as  well.
> 
> A dehorned Gyūki as well so I'm not sure why we're only focusing on A's feats verses Susano here. You don't make a *clean* *cut* like this if your attack isn't blade like.
> 
> If A was able to slice off the hardest part of Gyūki's body he can cut through _flesh_. Doesn't matter _how_ it happens.



ok is A chop sharper than kusanagi? if so why is it

yes he dehorned featless Gyūki horn. how durable is it? any claim of its durability 

maybe its only a little harder than his tentacles which everything can cut 

you could make a cut like that by hitting it with force. though, wooden board to a karate man. hope you don't need a youtube link

youtube karate chop on wooden board. notice how they split evenly in half 

how are we sure the hardest part of Gyūki is his horn?

are we assuming kusanagi wouldn't cut through the horn? because note kusanagi which can damage enma a diamond staff couldn't cut clean through tsunade

thunder this video explains what A does 

*clean* *cut*

speed and power to break the concrete notice how evenly split they are. 

*speed and power* guess what jutsu he has which increases both? raiton chakra mode. so now why would a person who can increase his speed and power to break something with force use cutting attacks instead, that entirely defeats the purpose of him being a physical monstrosity that he is. 

look at how tiny kakashi is by comparison. kakashi raikiri cutting and piercing. that's not what A does at all. At least not when using RCM


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## Thunder (May 19, 2015)

Why does A's chop need to be sharper than Kusanagi? Do you think flesh  is harder than the gigantic horn of a bijū? The horn of a creature that  size is far more durable than a tentacle. Do you really need feats for _everything_? We can make an educated guesses on how durable certain objects are based on their composition. Especially when we have _real life_ examples of the sturdiness of horns to draw from.

Aside from his horn the rest of Gyūki's body appears _fleshy_. It's definitely one of the hardest parts of Gyūki's body if not _the_ hardest. Horns usually are.

But like I said man, I'm ready to agree to disagree so this is probably my last response here. I just love arguing with you.


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## Icegaze (May 19, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Why does A's chop need to be sharper than Kusanagi? Do you think flesh  is harder than the gigantic horn of a bijū? The horn of a creature that  size is far more durable than a tentacle. Do you really need feats for _everything_? We can make an educated guesses on how durable certain objects are based on their composition. Especially when we have _real life_ examples of the sturdiness of horns to draw from.
> 
> Aside from his horn the rest of Gyūki's body appears _fleshy_. It's definitely one of the hardest parts of Gyūki's body if not _the_ hardest. Horns usually are.
> 
> But like I said man, I'm ready to agree to disagree so this is probably my last response here. I just love arguing with you.



if A is using a cutting attack it would need to be. though he doesn't do such. just entertaining your ideas here

the guy in the video below can break concrete. 

stated

concrete is harder than bone. 

do you think that guy can chop a person In half? or cut a person head off with a chop?

concrete is more durable than any human. sadly the karate man here cant cut humans in half 
the same cant be said about the concrete now can it 

 

come at me bro.

no don't go. just try to see my point that a physical monster like A has no reason to use cutting attacks when his entire principle is to attack with speed and power to crush his enemies. why be such a physical brute looking person with such speed if all you are going to do is pull wannabe raikiri?

cutting hachibi horn doesn't slightly mean he can cut tsunade. same way am sure that karate man cant cut me in half


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## Veracity (May 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> In terms of *combat speed* feats. There are lots of shinobi with reflexes and striking speed better than that of Minato. Take a look at EMS Madara, Hashirama, prime Obito, Tobirama, Might Gai, EMS Sasuke, BM Naruto, BSM Naruto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Naw. Tsuande only needed Katusyu because she wanted to heal the other Kage and because she didn't have the chakra to have Byakago activated. She would have healed those injuries casually with Byakago. And those injuries are pretty close to decapitation. Pretty sure you can see how being split in half for hours with no chakra is comparable to decapitation with full chakra.

Sasuke cannot create those flames without MS... And Sharingan users don't have that good of reactions without the Sharingan activated. They heavily rely on it.

Not my job to prove it actually. You still need to provide panels and DB statements that prove that young Ay is faster. Considering you expect me to provide a panel of Tsuande surviving decapitation. On the flip side, I've actually provided many panels that lead to Tsuande surviving decapitation while you haven't provided a single panel for this older ay > younger Ay stuff.

You do though because that's how debates work. If you make a claim that's not obvious, you should provide feats. Also hard pressed to find out what makes you think Itachi is that fast...

The only difference is that KCM Naruto is physically faster than minato... They posses the same reactions, but Minato's flicker is inferior to narutos hence the reason he needed FTG to escape. That's Beyond obvious.

But all those ninja you named are in terms of reflexes far above Ay and anyone in those discussion. Minato beat Ay and bee on multiple occasions as well as reacted to a V2 flicker, and almost took Ay out in a single panel. His reactions and arm speed are pretty damn fast. He also slams a Resengan in Obito's back outspeeding his Kamui warp.

His Shunshin isn't that spectacular.. It's clearly below Ay's. What makes him a speedster is his reactions, his ability to get off FTG, and his arm speed. I think you forget to include Taijustu ability when speaking CQC. Which Madara, Hashirama and Gai all excel at.

Minato doesn't have automatic sensing, and even if he did, what's the point of making the statement if it was already previously made in the past? Kishi doesn't need to make the statement EVERY TIME Ay is shown. That's redundant. Kishi made the statement in the Ay fight which was before the Minato flashback. Why would he need to make the statement more than once in the small space between those chapters ? Young Ay has far less feats than older Ay which you seem to not incorporate. His younger feats are simply being fast enough to overwhelm Minato in the same manner he did to KCM naruto. The parallelization is pretty damn obvious there. So because the Sage of the Six paths doesn't have on panel feats, does that make him weak? 

Older Ay has more feats not better. I wouldn't say any of his older feats are better than almost taking Minato's nose off with a flicker.

That still doesn't prove anything. I'm gonna ask for scans just like you ask for scans. Panel evidence bruh.

I actually don't need scans as its obvious that's the Sannins reactions aren't 1/5 of MS Sasukes or KCM Naruto. That's common sense.

Ays a hard match for them each clearly, but all together ? 3 mid tiered KAGE with more hype than Ay ? No.

The 4 KAGE werent helping her when she was defending herself from Sussano clones that could keep up with Ay.

As long as you agree that they can summon before he bliztes them that's fine. & Jirayia needed sage mode because pain was overwhelming. It had nothing to do with speed, I don't think they ever even Cqc confronted.

I was saying that he becomes a sage, just that because he has he chakra to become a sage, kage Bunshin doesn't effect him much. 

It's one clone + probably up to 5 boss summonings + 2 other Sannin + massive AoE techniques. Yes that's enough to hold off Ay. He's isn't 8th gate gai.

Your questions aren't really important though... It doesn't matter if limbo is > to Ribcage Sussano as sakura didn't budge limbo and Tsuande Tore right through his Sussano.

Bones aren't necessarily chakra enhanced.

Itachi didn't even chakra flow the sword. Pains chakra rods( which are 3 times more durable than steel) break on Sage Narutos skin and your telling me that Itachi can cut off his horn just because he's using a non flow sword ? No.

Do you know what mechanics are?

It would have been smarter, but he didn't he the reactions too...


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## Ryuzaki (May 20, 2015)

Well, to be quite honest, I don't see a valid counter to Dust Element and/or Raikage's speed, having Kakashi there just makes it an unfair curbstomp. Any of the three can engage any of the sannin and keep them occupied for a short period of time. The biggest problem to overcome is the Dust Element, knowing how dangerous Jiraiya can be, I can see Oonoki resorting to Dust Element rather quickly, furthermore he has an aerial advantage and he works well with the Raikage.  

I can see Tsunade being beheaded by either Raikage or Kakashi and the moment she falls, the rest of her team does as well. There's no possible way she can regenerate her brain. Once that happens, it becomes an unfair advantage.

The Edo Tensei Hashirama and Tobirama can be sent to Kamuiland if necessary.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

> concrete is more durable than any human. sadly the karate man here cant cut humans in half
> the same cant be said about the concrete now can it
> 
> 
> ...



Bone is tougher than concrete.



> Bone is extraordinarily strong — ounce for ounce, bone is stronger than steel, since a bar of steel of comparable size would weigh four or five times as much. A cubic inch of bone can in principle bear a load of 19,000 lbs. (8,626 kg) or more — roughly the weight of five standard pickup trucks — making it about four times as strong as concrete.







> youtube karate chop on wooden board. notice how they split evenly in half
> 
> thunder this video explains what A does
> 
> ...



Karate men use dry pine boards, which are soft and brittle.  They attack along the grain, which causes the even split.  If you fold a piece of paper in half, and bend it back and forth a bunch of times to form a line through the middle, you can pull on both ends and it'll split evenly in half. Similar principle of something breaking along the line of least resistance.  It looks like a cut, but it's not.  Don't get excited and say this is your point, we'll get back to it.

The concrete breaking is possible because concrete is similarly brittle.  Moreover, it's possibly because bone is tougher than concrete per square inch, and because of the "fault line" principle with the paper.  The concrete is suspended on both sides with bricks, and is unsupported in the center.  This makes all the weight fall in a straight line down the center, giving it a weak point.  Kind of like how if you put a board over a hole, it bends the most when you step in the center.  That board won't bend at all if you laid it over flat earth and walked across.  Now you deliver a quick shock with your superior bone to the center, which you've made weak, and it splits down the middle.  The power of your shot gets combined with the falling of the block, which falls onto the next block, and you get a chain reaction.

Now here's why Ei isn't doing what you're saying.  The people and horns Ei chops aren't brittle, and they aren't carefully arranged to form structural weaknesses for their flesh and bone to split along.

Also, Ei  without using speed and power.  He kind of gently placed it there and turned on his lighsaber and it fell off.  So I could have just posted this scan, but then I wouldn't get to show off all my cool board and brick and bone breaking knowledge.


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## Thunder (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> if A is using a cutting attack it would need to be. though he doesn't do such. just entertaining your ideas here
> 
> the guy in the video below can break concrete.
> 
> ...



*How karate chops break concrete blocks:*



Answer me this now: _why_ are we comparing concrete and wood to the horn of a bijū in the first place? Show me Karate Kid cleanly chopping a *thick animal horn* in half. Concrete and wood are _flexible_ materials to some extent. They _bend_ under pressure. A martial artist can exploit that weakness. For them it's more a matter of technique than pure power.

Horns are much tougher.

*Edit:* See Pirate's post too. He explained the whole thing much better than I did.



> Also, Ei   without using speed and power.  He kind of gently placed it there and  turned on his lighsaber and it fell off.  So I could have just posted  this scan, but then I wouldn't get to show off all my cool board and  brick and bone breaking knowledge.


I showed Icegaze this as well, but he doesn't think A can do that while Raiton Chakra Mode is active for some reason.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Thunder said:


> *How karate chops break concrete blocks:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



horns are harder than concrete? really  
why wont the horn be as flexible as concrete, and why assume A has no knowledge on how to perform a proper karate chop considering he is a martial artist 



> *Edit:* See Pirate's post too. He explained the whole thing much better than I did.
> 
> I showed Icegaze this as well, but he doesn't think A can do that while Raiton Chakra Mode is active for some reason.



my reason is simple he hasn't cut anything using slicing properties of raiton with his shroud active


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Bone is tougher than concrete.



false depends on the volume of concrete vs the volume of bone we are talking about. though if u believe it is stronger than concrete punch a concrete block and lemme know how u feel after it 

or yet these same karate guys, have a block moving towards their leg at the same speed they are chopping the block and 100000% of the time it would shatter their leg bone entirely 



nice link 



> Karate men use dry pine boards, which are soft and brittle.  They attack along the grain, which causes the even split.  If you fold a piece of paper in half, and bend it back and forth a bunch of times to form a line through the middle, you can pull on both ends and it'll split evenly in half. Similar principle of something breaking along the line of least resistance.  It looks like a cut, but it's not.  Don't get excited and say this is your point, we'll get back to it.



the youtube vid I sent. was them breaking concrete. so I don't know why u bring up pine board. 

your last line is basically my point. 


> The concrete breaking is possible because concrete is similarly brittle.  Moreover, it's possibly because bone is tougher than concrete per square inch, and because of the "fault line" principle with the paper.  The concrete is suspended on both sides with bricks, and is unsupported in the center.  This makes all the weight fall in a straight line down the center, giving it a weak point.  Kind of like how if you put a board over a hole, it bends the most when you step in the center.  That board won't bend at all if you laid it over flat earth and walked across.  Now you deliver a quick shock with your superior bone to the center, which you've made weak, and it splits down the middle.  The power of your shot gets combined with the falling of the block, which falls onto the next block, and you get a chain reaction.



bone is brittle as well. so I don't see why u claim bone is harder. 

hachibi horn was unsupported in its center and was basically there for A to jump and chop at it. 
hachibi horn is no different than those concrete blocks waiting to be chopped 



> Now here's why Ei isn't doing what you're saying.  The people and horns Ei chops aren't brittle, and they aren't carefully arranged to form structural weaknesses for their flesh and bone to split along.



prove hachibi horn isn't brittle 
you do realize horn is basically bone right. and bone is brittle. google is your friend buddy use it 



> Also, Ei  without using speed and power.  He kind of gently placed it there and turned on his lighsaber and it fell off.  So I could have just posted this scan, but then I wouldn't get to show off all my cool board and brick and bone breaking knowledge.



I never said A couldn't use raiton to cut things. I said he doesn't or cant do so while in RCM as it defeats the purpose of RCm which is to increase his speed and power so he can deliver powerful taijutsu strikes 

raiton users with piercing cutting attacks don't need to amp their speed or power to run through things. the properties of their jutsu does that for them


Also A going on, on more than 1 occasion about *CRUSHING!* his enemy not cutting his enemy illustrates my point. but  do show me A cutting jutsu with a name to it and then ull have a point

A wouldn't need to be a physical monster if his strategy was to use raiton to cut people. look at skinny sasuke and kakashi. 

A doesn't have any raiton cutting jutsu to speak of.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

If you have brittle bones, you have osteoporosis.  Bones flex.  



Have a browse of a sight, appropriately named bonesbasics.  



Here are some experiments you can do at home!

Here's something good.  If an elephant's bones were made of concrete, 

We of the NBD are here to give you the biology and physics lessons relevant to you magical ninja battles they failed to teach you in school.

Also, all of those karate breaks require you to stop your hit, with focus.  No follow-through.  Ei follows through so hard he crashes through mountains.  His arm makes a full chopping arc.  At least follow your own logic if you're not going to listen to biology and physics.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

> youtube karate chop on wooden board. notice how they split evenly in half





> the youtube vid I sent. was them breaking concrete. so I don't know why u bring up pine board.



I don't know why I bothered to read or remember what you typed when you won't....



> Don't get excited and say this is your point, we'll get back to it.





> your last line is basically my point.



....even bother to read or remember mine either...



> hachibi horn was unsupported in its center and was basically there for A to jump and chop at it.
> hachibi horn is no different than those concrete blocks waiting to be chopped



Was it evenly weighted and supported on both ends but not the center?

Did Ei break it at exactly the center of mass?  

Do you understand that you've invented and substituted a complex off-panel explanation for Ei's angry-man chop when Kishi drew a chop hand with a blade on it that makes things go in half?

Did you notice that things only got halved when he chopped, and not when he speed punched, despite you saying he's doing the same thing for all his hits?


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## Thunder (May 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> horns are harder than concrete? really
> why wont the horn be as flexible as concrete, and why assume A has no knowledge on how to perform a proper karate chop considering he is a martial artist



Brittle bones tend to break easily. 

I never said A doesn't have the skill to to perform a proper karate chop. Of course he does. I'm saying proper karate chops don't _slice_ horns _clean_ in half. 

There's no "sweet spot" in that horn unlike in the case of those wooden or cement blocks which are arranged _perfectly _so the martial artist can break them. Pirate explained this to you. 



> my reason is simple he hasn't cut anything using slicing properties of raiton with his shroud active


I get that, but I explained why A turned off his should there. Why the hell would you keep your armor on if you wanted to cut your own arm off? 

The databook doesn't say it's a separate jutsu either.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

> The Pirate on Wheels said:
> 
> 
> > If you have brittle bones, you have osteoporosis.  Bones flex.
> ...


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Brittle bones tend to break easily.



I know that. 



> I never said A doesn't have the skill to to perform a proper karate chop. Of course he does. I'm saying proper karate chops don't _slice_ horns _clean_ in half.



it did with concrete. why is hachibi horn different. its entirely possible kishi didn't get into the science of it all. since he mentioned A using horizontal karate chop on hachibi. 

*actually just read up a rhino horn is normally made up of the same thing that makes hair and finger nail. so clearly hachibi horn being brittle isn't a stretch and would explain why its easy to karate chop it in half *



> There's no "sweet spot" in that horn unlike in the case of those wooden or cement blocks which are arranged _perfectly _so the martial artist can break them. Pirate explained this to you.



odd a rhino horn usually breaks around the same point in most cases or gets chipped when it runs into things. so there is a sweet spot. possible A just aimed for that


> I get that, but I explained why A turned off his should there. Why the hell would you keep your armor on if you wanted to cut your own arm off?



I know. no need to have cloak on to chop your arm. but again you are pirate are utterly failing to understand that A uses taijutsu strikes not cutting or piercing techniques. this much is obvious based on every single named jutsu he has. 

someone who relies on piercing or cutting techniques would not shunshin straight at madara god by comparison and speed punch them or then proceed to karate chop them, and say he cant crush his guard 



> The databook doesn't say it's a separate jutsu either.



like I said I never said he cant do it

what I said is it isn't at all his fighting style, or kishi wont have gone through the trouble of naming 2 karate chop jutsu. why not just give those jutsu some other name and emphasized their piercing and cutting abilities

A even when going up against madara a god he decided to go for a punch first something that can be blocked, why didn't A just go for a piercing jab like raikiri or slice clean through madara with this magical cutting ration chakra he got when in RCM?

also the jutsu used on sasuke. the karate chop this is how its described by THE AUTHOR!



and the one against madara 



please tell me where this cutting or piercing Is described cuz I don't see it. when he chopped at madara susanoo madara got pushed further into the ground. that's due to the physical strike, if it was a cutting technique it wouldn't do that.


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## Thunder (May 20, 2015)

I'm gonna go chop bones clean in half with my bare hands now. If I don't come back I seriously injured myself.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

> all bones have some degree of brittleness you cant tell me bone is 100% not brittle now can u?



I can 100% tell you that a non-brittle bone is not brittle by definition.

I can assert this with the same 100% confidence I have in stating that all bachelors are unmarried males.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

fair enough 
hachibi horn isn't bone its close to finger nails or hair since its made up of keratin the same stuff that makes up a rhino horn 

and well animal horns generally. is that brittle?  I dunno you tell me 

in any case as per my post to thunder. lightning oppression horizontal is a simple karate chop! 

now a karate chop is used to break things with speed and power, not cut through them as if it is raikiri 

further more its not even A style to use ration in that manner. or he would have against madara a god vs punching the guy. I mean A has no reason to not go all out against an all healing madara who even without healing is much much stronger 

my main point here is in a fight against tsunade A will not be beheading her or going for cutting attacks as it is not his style at all

suggesting he does that is no differenf from suggesting gai gets a kunai and chops tsunade head off vs trying to use gated techniques to put her down. 

the kunai option is a lot easier yet no doubt he will go for gates and try and break her bones as that's his style 

this Is simple to counter the assertion some poster made that tsunade looses her head off the bat


@thunder the extended armour during the swing is no different from the ration cloak on A shoulders which are always shown to be spiky 

I hope you don't think if a person fell on his armour around his shoulder that they would be impaled


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

> raiton users with piercing cutting attacks don't need to amp their speed or power to run through things. the properties of their jutsu does that for them



Actually that's false.

Hashirama fought Kakuzu and didn't kill him

Hashirama fought Kakuzu and didn't kill him

Hashirama fought Kakuzu and didn't kill him

Hashirama fought Kakuzu and didn't kill him

It's the speed and the technique that form the all piercing power of chidori.  That's why Sasuke was specifically trained to heighten his speed.



> and well animal horns generally. is that brittle?  I dunno you tell me



Much like bones, neither horns nor fingernails should be brittle.  Horns also usually have a bone inner structure, with keretene over them.  Bee is an oxtopus, and bovine horns are used as an offencive weapon to bash and smash enemies, and impact the horns of other bulls.  So they have to be exceedingly strong, as well as flexible in order to not snap on impact.  We're talking two 1500 pound bulls cracking skulls at full charge.  

Bull horns also have a dense bone core, with the nail coating over them, so we're talking about Ei's hand bone breaking a much denser reinforced bone that's 600,000,000x the size of his hand bones.  One that's built to take the impact of the Hachibi himself charging and slamming thing with them.  That would be like you punching a solid house sized block of steel with a steel gauntlet and expecting it to split in half.  At no point could you perfectly split that block in half, no matter how fast or how hard you punched it.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Actually that's false.
> 
> Hashirama fought Kakuzu and didn't kill him
> 
> ...



are u implying if sasuke doesn't run full speed he cant pierce and kill with chidori?
because he actually creates a hole in Naruto while standing still when he stabbed him with it 

though I agree, using speed to stab the enemy helps 

how about power? something A specifically emphasizes as well. Also the DB does when it talks about his karate chop. 

A is a taijutsu user who uses martial arts attacks I don't get why we are going on about this like A goes into fights cutting things. when his default is strike with taijutsu while cloaked which basically just makes his hits faster and stronger that's it


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

By the way, likeaboss, explain to me why RT SM Madara, who's healing abilities were as good as those of Byakugou Tsunade, couldnt heal his hand and replaced it with Zetsu's hand.


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## Veracity (May 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> By the way, likeaboss, explain to me why RT SM Madara, who's healing abilities were as good as those of Byakugou Tsunade, couldnt heal his hand and replaced it with Zetsu's hand.



Did you respond to the other post ? 

And Madara's regeneration isn't even close to Tsuandes. Not even close. What proof do you have ? Pretty sure you misinterpreted them.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Did you respond to the other post ?
> 
> And Madara's regeneration isn't even close to Tsuandes. Not even close. What proof do you have ? Pretty sure you misinterpreted them.



Oh, it seems i havent noticed that post. I'll answer it. 

Surviving being pierced with sand and that same sand inside of his body. A pretty good healing feat.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> are u implying if sasuke doesn't run full speed he cant pierce and kill with chidori?
> because he actually creates a hole in Naruto while standing still when he stabbed him with it
> 
> though I agree, using speed to stab the enemy helps
> ...



It's speed plus the raiton manipulation that makes chidori pierce all.  It's a really good piercing technique without the speed.  If Kakashi were as physically strong as Ei, that would help him stab better as well.  

Ei's raiton manipulation during his chop probably isn't as good as Kakashi's raikiri, or his father's nukite, but he makes up for that by running faster than his father and chopping harder and faster than Kakashi.    

IC with no knowledge he usually tries to punch first, but against people he has knowledge on, or whom his punches fail on, he goes to chops.  Which is evident when he started spamming chops on Madara and Sasuke's Susano.  If he's fighting someone he knows he needs to chop, or it becomes evident, he's going to do it.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> Naw. Tsuande only needed Katusyu because she wanted to heal the other Kage and because she didn't have the chakra to have Byakago activated. She would have healed those injuries casually with Byakago. And those injuries are pretty close to decapitation. Pretty sure you can see how being split in half for hours with no chakra is comparable to decapitation with full chakra.



She has never healed such an injury casually. She has never grow half of her body back, or her head. She has never, ever, sustained such an injury all by herself. So you havent proved she can grow back her head. 



> Sasuke cannot create those flames without MS... And Sharingan users don't have that good of reactions without the Sharingan activated. They heavily rely on it.



Sasuke's MS was active the whole time after Ei activated his V2. And of course, MS was one of the reasons why Sasuke activated flames at that moment. He had precognition. 

Anyway, it is very debatable if Sasuke reacted to his attacking speed or not. He may be thinking about how to counter V2 speed and then came up with an idea of covering his Susanoo ribcage right at the moment when Ei wanted to hit him.

You are trying to use an assumption in this debate. 



> Not my job to prove it actually. You still need to provide panels and DB statements that prove that young Ay is faster. Considering you expect me to provide a panel of Tsuande surviving decapitation. On the flip side, I've actually provided many panels that lead to Tsuande surviving decapitation while you haven't provided a single panel for this older ay > younger Ay stuff.



There is no panel statement about young Ei that he had tailed beast level chakra. Minato wasnt surprised about his chakra level at all. although he is a sensor. And young Ei is featless. But there are some statements about 17 years older Ei. And Raikage Ei has feats.

So here you go - young Ei is slower then Raikage Ei because there is no proof that he is as good as a 17 years older vertion of himself.



> You do though because that's how debates work. If you make a claim that's not obvious, you should provide feats. Also hard pressed to find out what makes you think Itachi is that fast...



I proved that to be true. No feats, no statements - no power. And thats how debates work. We cant put those characters in the same level when there was a 17 years gap between them. Maybe we should put Gaiden kakashi and part 1 Kakashi at the same level too?



> The only difference is that KCM Naruto is physically faster than minato... They posses the same reactions, but Minato's flicker is inferior to narutos hence the reason he needed FTG to escape. That's Beyond obvious.



They do not possess the same reactions. KCM Naruto reacted to Edo Itachi while being slower then when he fought Ei and reacted to Raikage Ei, who's faster then his younger self due to tailed beast level chakra and better feats with his flicker.



> But all those ninja you named are in terms of reflexes far above Ay and anyone in those discussion. Minato beat Ay and bee on multiple occasions as well as reacted to a V2 flicker, and almost took Ay out in a single panel. His reactions and arm speed are pretty damn fast. He also slams a Resengan in Obito's back outspeeding his Kamui warp.



LOL what? The shinobi i mentioned have a lot faster reflexes then either base Minato, or young Ei, or young Obito, or out of his prime Hiruzen.

Also, i want you to prove that young Ei's V2 flicker is as fast as Raikage Ei's V2 flicker.

In that panel, Minato outspeed young Obito's reaction speed, not his warp. He could escape Kamui thanks to his FTG. which is an instant, and young Obito grabbed his arm, which adult Obito couldnt do to base Might Gai, for example.

I want you to prove that young teenager Obito is as fast as adult Obito. I also want you to prove that young Bee is as fast as older Bee. And comment please, why young Bee could react to Minato on 2 occasions.



> His Shunshin isn't that spectacular.. It's clearly below Ay's. What makes him a speedster is his reactions, his ability to get off FTG, and his arm speed. I think you forget to include Taijustu ability when speaking CQC. Which Madara, Hashirama and Gai all excel at.



His arm speed is not even close to that of EMS Madara and prime Hashirama Senju. Sage Mode Hashirama can easily wreck base Minato in a close distance because of huge attack speed, movement speed and general reflexes gap.

And taijutsu completely depends on users speed and reflexes. Gai, Madara and Hashirama are so good in CQC thanks to their reaction speed and movement speed. 



> Minato doesn't have automatic sensing, and even if he did, what's the point of making the statement if it was already previously made in the past? Kishi doesn't need to make the statement EVERY TIME Ay is shown. That's redundant. Kishi made the statement in the Ay fight which was before the Minato flashback. Why would he need to make the statement more than once in the small space between those chapters ? Young Ay has far less feats than older Ay which you seem to not incorporate. His younger feats are simply being fast enough to overwhelm Minato in the same manner he did to KCM naruto. The parallelization is pretty damn obvious there. So because the Sage of the Six paths doesn't have on panel feats, does that make him weak?



Sage of The Six Paths has "feats through other characters", as i call it. Remember how fast and strong both Naruto and Sasuke became after recieving Hagoromo's chakra? Remember how fast was RT Madara, a physical equal of alive Hashirama, without his EMS (without precognition), after he recieved Edo Hashirama's SM? 

Ei was 17 years younger right there. It is nonsense to think that after 17 years, he could stay the same. Also, there was no reason for Minato to not use his sensing against such a speedster. 

Young Ei is below Raikage Ei because there is no proof that Ei stayed the same, or became slower. Raikage Ei proved himself to be faster through feats and statements.



> Older Ay has more feats not better.I wouldn't say any of his older feats are better than almost taking Minato's nose off with a flicker.



Older Ei gave lots of troubles to KCM Naruto, dodged Amaterasu and showed tailed beast level chakra. Young Ei doesnt have feats as good as those. Young Ei fought Minato, who himself fought either fodders, or characters without many good feats.



> That still doesn't prove anything. I'm gonna ask for scans just like you ask for scans. Panel evidence bruh.



No feats, no statements - no power. Its that simple.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> I actually don't need scans as its obvious that's the Sannins reactions aren't 1/5 of MS Sasukes or KCM Naruto. That's common sense.



Their reactions are low compare to V2 Raikage's, very low. And they dont have precognition.



> Ays a hard match for them each clearly, but all together ? 3 mid tiered KAGE with more hype than Ay ? No.



They beat Ei with mid/high difficulty. Thats what i am talking about.



> The 4 KAGE werent helping her when she was defending herself from Sussano clones that could keep up with Ay.



Defended herself? Her healing abilities saved her there. 



> As long as you agree that they can summon before he bliztes them that's fine. & Jirayia needed sage mode because pain was overwhelming. It had nothing to do with speed, I don't think they ever even Cqc confronted.



They summon, right after that V2 is on top of their summons and Sannin gets blitzed. At least either Jiraya, or Tsunade. 



> I was saying that he becomes a sage, just that because he has he chakra to become a sage, kage Bunshin doesn't effect him much.



But still effect him. If there are only Jiraya and 1 clone, V2 Ei blitz them both.



> It's one clone + probably up to 5 boss summonings + 2 other Sannin + massive AoE techniques. Yes that's enough to hold off Ay. He's isn't 8th gate gai.



Jiraya wont summon lots of summonings, because he is not fast enough to do that. 



> Your questions aren't really important though... It doesn't matter if limbo is > to Ribcage Sussano as sakura didn't budge limbo and Tsuande Tore right through his Sussano.



That doesnt prove Tsunade is stronger then Sakura though.



> Bones aren't necessarily chakra enhanced.



Are you sure?



> Itachi didn't even chakra flow the sword. Pains chakra rods( which are 3 times more durable than steel) break on Sage Narutos skin and your telling me that Itachi can cut off his horn just because he's using a non flow sword ? No.



Kabuto doesnt have durability feats by the way.



> Do you know what mechanics are?



Yes i do.



> It would have been smarter, but he didn't he the reactions too...



What? So a flicker somehow effects Sasuke's ability to turn black flames on?


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

@pirate he had knowledge on madara 
He knew Madara was the strongest he has ever faced and still opted for a punch . After said punch was blocked he opted for a simple karate chop. So implying he Cuts things if he has knowledge is false 

He made a hole in Jugo , Jugo surbived it . The next thing was to elbow Jugo. A doesnt cut things it's not his style 

He karate chops them though . And that jutsu isn't described in the slightest as having a cutting effect due to raiton 

His karate chop has shown no ability to cut tisnade head off . Break her neck sure but cut it with a Karate chop . Nope 

Who actually has he cut . He cut a brittle horn big whoop. Fought madara didn't cut , Jugo didn't cut , sasuke didn't cut 

I see a pattern here


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @pirate he had knowledge on madara
> He knew Madara was the strongest he has ever faced and still opted for a punch . After said punch was blocked he opted for a simple karate chop. So implying he Cuts things if he has knowledge is false
> 
> He made a hole in Jugo , Jugo surbived it . The next thing was to elbow Jugo. A doesnt cut things it's not his style
> ...



He made a whole in Jugo, cut Hachibi's horn and crushed Sasuke's Susanoo ribcage. Maybe he cant cut her head off, but what about tearing her head off?


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

he pushed his hand through jugo. what does that have to do with piercing ability. he used a balled fist and forced his hand through. he karate chopped a brittle horn with horizontal press a jutsu specifically made stronger by falling on the horn

 he could try that. wont lie, however. after making a hole in jugo A still thought why don't I elbow his back. vs let me rip his head off

A doesn't even fight that way. its like saying someone survives gai morning peacock and his next solution is to grab a kunai and cut their head off. would certainly be an easier option however he is far more likely to try hirudora


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