# KL's Popularity Poll [140]: Itachi Uchiha



## Immortal (Aug 4, 2013)

​
One-hundred and fourtieth poll, Itachi Uchiha Vote on 1-10 based on how much you like the character including plot relevance, jutsu, design etc. Voting 1 or 10 to change the average is frowned upon and only votes in the poll will count. This poll will be closed a week from now.

Check out what polls are up and what previous characters scored here.

This poll will be open for the next 7 days.




*Keep this thread civil. Any voters who are reprimanded by the moderators or myself in this thread are subject to having their vote nullified.​*


----------



## Overhaul (Aug 4, 2013)

1/10


----------



## RBL (Aug 4, 2013)

part 1 itachi 10/10 (cool character) 

part 2 ... 10/10 as well


----------



## Danzio (Aug 4, 2013)

Itachi is, without a doubt, the most flawed, complex, contradictory, conflicted, illogical, mind-boggling character ever written in fiction. There’s absolutely nothing about his character that makes sense, other than his impressive skill set and the fact he’s suppose to be viewed in extremely positive light by the author himself; you can tell this by no one I mean, no one calling Itachi out in-universe, despite his more than questionable actions in the past . Instead he’s constantly praised, applauded, which, ironically, makes said character more confusing for the readers. Not to mention, Kishi loves to make everyone look stupid and/or ineffective next to him, regardless of power level.

He sees himself as a pacifist, yet committed genocide. He killed off his whole clan his own parents his own flesh and blood - something he later admits could’ve been avoided. He also helped capture and kill off innocent jinchūriki  after joining the biggest terrorist organization in the world that did massive amount of damage around the world. Even as a spy, his intelligence was garbage e.g.  Jiraiya went blindly into his death. He’s so noble, that he had no issue with Kisame chopping off Naruto’s leg or getting rid of Kurenai and Asuma.

Sasuke is the most important thing in his life, and is, supposedly, the main explanation for his dubious actions, yet he made him into the bi-polar, confused, tortured, young psychopath we know and love today.He mentally, and physically, tortured his little brother; literally beat him up and showed him images of the infamous massacre again and again. He, selfishly, severed any bond the parent-less kid made in Konoha, which were hard to make in the first place, even suggested he should kill off his best friend just so Sasuke could build his hatred, seek him out and rid him of the guilt he carried for his sins. 

Uchiha Itachi should have stayed a mysterious, remorseful villain.


----------



## Rios (Aug 4, 2013)

1

its simple, I hate when authors play favorities


----------



## -JT- (Aug 4, 2013)

I've decided on 3/10.

He is undoubtedly relevant to the plot, with a detailed backstory, and he has arguably one of the best panels in the manga.
But his infamous retcon was awfully shoehorned in to add some twist in the tale, and Kishimoto always desperately tries to ram him down our throats at every opportunity.
His more militant fans are also incredibly insufferable.


----------



## Daxter (Aug 4, 2013)

Danzio said:


> Uchiha Itachi should have stayed a mysterious, remorseful villain.






Another one of whom which I don't understand the wank overkill.

I'll give him a 5/10 as well; I found him in part one to be rather interesting and cool, but everything changed after Sasuke killed him, or, when he set himself up to be killed by Sasuke anyway.

Kishi ruins him with his blatant favoritism, I feel like it adds to the problem that he's brought up and wanked so much even within the context of the manga.

Anyways, he's allright I suppose.


----------



## Amanda (Aug 4, 2013)

This is a question of pure personal preference and chemistry, but Itachi is just completely bland and blank to me. I can't register him as a human being, he feels like a cardboard cutout.

Kishi wanking him day and night is annoying, though.

5/10 I guess.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 4, 2013)

10.10.

One of the best characters in the series, and easily the second-most (or most; I won't argue) complex. He fulfills his purpose very well.

tl;;dr done.



> “Itachi, Itachi, Itachi….Even in death, he never ceases to amaze me.”



Was he a villain? Yes. Was he a good guy? Yes. Was he the most well-crafted and complex character in the series? Yes. Was he a “retcon”? No. Itachi was not a villain who changed his ways, thus suddenly becoming a good guy, as is often the case. Instead, he was a sort of hero who lived his life a villain, one whose true motives were not revealed until after his death. Itachi was both brutal and loving to the end.

One of the most refreshing things about Itachi’s character is that he does not have your traditional villain or tragic hero sob story. While his (richly detailed) life itself was tragic, it was not pitiful. Itachi accepted what came his way, carried out his horrific duties, and suffered in silence with what can only be seen as a sort of grace:



> For the sake of Konoha's peace, and, more than anything, for you...Uchiha Sasuke, he wanted to die a criminal, a traitor. Accepting dishonor in payment for honor...and hatred in payment for love. Even then, Itachi died smiling, entrusting the Uchiha name to you, while deceiving you forever...



Itachi sacrificed everything for the village and, most of all, his brother. Although he remained alive after the massacre for some years, he was already destroyed as a human being. He gave his own humanity up that night, killing not only his clan but his own parents, on their own request, and continued to live on for Sasuke's sake. Despite living a horrifically miserable life, both in what happened to him and in what he did, Itachi never attempted to justify his actions to anyone, though he of all people had a powerful reasoning behind his actions. Selfless to the end, he brought his secrets with him to the grave, preferring to die a criminal, hated by the one person he loved most in the world, in order to protect his brother and the honor of the clan. 

When Itachi was unexpectedly revived, he had the chance to make amends with his brother, to have a "last time" beyond the "last time", and though he fought alongside Sasuke and saved his life physically, his greatest action was telling his brother what he had longed to hear for so much of his life. He told him the truth, and in telling him the truth, he saved them both. Because finally, he himself was freed from his pain; he was able to be a brother again. Itachi stripped away the mirage with a few words, and in doing so, he ultimately saved his brother's life.



			
				Itachi said:
			
		

> "I always kept you far away, with my own hands...I didn't want...to involve you... But now I think...That maybe you would have been able to change our father, mother, the Uchiha...if I had faced you fromthe start...tried to see things from your point of view and taked with you about the truth... But I failed, and no matter what I say now, it still won't reach you. That's why I'm finally going to say what I really think. *You don't have to forgive me. No matter what you decide to do from now on, I will love you forever.*"




Itachi's impact on all of the characters, indeed many of the readers as well, will stay with us for a long time yet. No matter what you may say of him, he was a character that the author clearly put extensive time and thought into, and he is a character who most of us won't forget so easily.



			
				Itachi said:
			
		

> "No matter what you’ve done, you never know what sort of person you are until the end…The moment of death is when you know what sort of person you are. That’s what death is, don’t you think?"





			
				Itachi said:
			
		

> "People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be merely "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts...Their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"


----------



## Vice (Aug 4, 2013)

1/10 only because I can't vote in the negatives. His fanclub only makes me hate him more.


----------



## Prototype (Aug 4, 2013)

9/10 from me.


----------



## Scarlet Ammo (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10 because itachi


----------



## eurytus (Aug 4, 2013)

7/10 His character does have depth and charm, but way toooo many plot holes


----------



## The Faceless Man (Aug 4, 2013)

Voted 9

- cool character and nice pesonality
- teached others from his mistakes
- killed his clan for the greater good
- admited that he fucking failed..... with sasuke and trying all on his own
- nice jutsu and skillful
- Izanami asspull , WTF really kishi ? 

The strongest reason i gave a 9 is that he is good but kishi made him to mary sue.... i give props that in the end he said that ha failed but still......


----------



## Ernie (Aug 4, 2013)

1/10

Danzo pissed on him!


----------



## Addy (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10 

wetehr you like him or hate him, he is by far THE ONLY character that kishi has put  A LOT of effort in writing as his story was over a few 100 chapters, the god like spreads he got, the vol cover, the izanami treatment, the back story, his impact on the manga's story and tune.

he might not be the main character but he has more effect on the plot than the main character


----------



## Magician (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10

Cause fuck it.


----------



## Cord (Aug 4, 2013)

Ah, the best character in the series.


----------



## Shattering (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10 best developed/written character in the series


----------



## Trojan (Aug 4, 2013)

1 

1- by far the worst character AFTEAR obito. 
2- Too many plothole in the manga because of him. 
3- overrated too much! 
4- I hate how his fans say he's > God. 
5- he's killed children, women and old men! 

And maybe some other reasons!


----------



## Nic (Aug 4, 2013)

worst written character in the series by far, and that's saying something considering how many poorly written characters there are. 1/10


----------



## Moeka (Aug 4, 2013)

8/10
cares for his brother a LOT <3


----------



## SLB (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10

Only Uchiha I like.


----------



## Frawstbite (Aug 4, 2013)

5/10

I simply don't believe the character we had at the beginning was ever supposed to be the character we have now. Either that or everything surrounding the Itachi is pretty poorly written.

In my opinion.


----------



## Black☆Star (Aug 4, 2013)

Worst character in the manga

1/10


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 4, 2013)

Itachi is not the best because he is powerful.

Characterization, background, and personality in alignment with his interactions with others and the fulfillment of his role in the manga are what makes him worth a 10.


----------



## santanico (Aug 4, 2013)

He's my top favorite character, his design, his story.. 10/10



Vice said:


> 1/10 only because I can't vote in the negatives. His fanclub only makes me hate him more.


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Aug 4, 2013)

1/10 for starting all this Sasuke mess.


----------



## Naiad (Aug 4, 2013)

-JT- said:


> d Kishimoto always desperately tries to ram him down our throats at every opportunity.
> His more militant fans are also incredibly insufferable.



^
this + this whole 'itachi soloes'-shit was too annoying all those years! i am glad the manga is probaply finally over with him! 

i wont miss him! 1/10


----------



## CrazyVulpine (Aug 4, 2013)

Hmm a hard one. I don't hate him but I don't love him either.But he is certainly  likable and I liked his interactions ,how he cared his brother ,the backstory etc and his words with other characters such as Naruto were interesting.So he gets a 6/10 from me.


----------



## C-Moon (Aug 4, 2013)

2/10

A walking contradiction whose crimes have either been whitewashed or ignored entirely. You can't call yourself a spy for your village while torturing your own brother and having no problem with the ninja you once served with dying. You can't call yourself loving your brother while wanting him to stew in his own anger. You can't be a pacifist while helping an organization that later went on to slaughter half the ninja world in a day.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 4, 2013)

Itachi is one of the most complex character in the manga, he was the plot. By Kishi's own admission, Itachi was too perfect, which is why he had to get rid off him otherwise he would have solo'ed all the remaining villains. Twice he died by his way, both fights that eventually ends up with his death was planned by him. His story in the manga is the best imo. He could have easily taken over the main character role. 

Itachi story was perfect until he came back to life in Edo. The part I did not like is his explanation of letting Sasuke live was because he was a kid, at that moment, I was like, what about the other Uchiha kids? Then we find out he could have avoided the massacre if he listened to Sasuke, that part did not make sense to me at all. These two part imo ruined some aspect of his character. First time he died, we find out that he let Sasuke live so he can one day die by his brother, Uchiha hand so then he can be seen as a hero. That was the perfect explanation.

Overall, his skillset is the best. Kishi has shown that Itachi is very adaptable, he can hang around with top tier shinobi's with no problem. His parallel, Minato has never got the same portrayal as Itachi. 

I could go on forever lol

10/10


----------



## eluna (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10 because he owns everyone


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10; best character in the series.

Haters gon' hate...'cause he stylin' on 'em.


----------



## dynasaur (Aug 4, 2013)

I was never a huge fan of Itachi. I haven't really began to like him until the War arc, I voted 10/10 because he has become one of my favourites now.


----------



## Revolution (Aug 4, 2013)

Immortal said:


> ​



GREAT PICTURE!  

Immortal, what made you finally choose this one? I'm sure it was hard.

Itachi _is_ *the *most controversial character I know of in existence.


I don't know what to rate him.

I loved him. 

I learned he went to war against his own clan because he hated war and I hated him.  I quit Naruto and gave all my Naruto dvds away.

Somehow I wanted to know what becomes of Sasuke with all of it and the possibility that Tobi was lying and Itachi was set up and took the blame to protect Sasuke (possibly Sasuke was inflicted with a genjutsu that made him kill everyone and none of the other Uchiha had it in themselves to kill a 8 year old boy), so I kept reading Naruto through the horribly boring war arc.

Itachi made everything intersting, and when he was gone, Sasuke made everything interesting.

Itachi was wrong in almost everything he did.  But the more I learn about him (Naruto 619), the less I find it his fault, the less Itachi seemed in control of the entire coup and even his own decision of being a double agent seemed out of his control.  

Itachi said to Sasuke "I am still Uchiha of the Leaf" after he was afflicted with Kotoamtsukami, so was that true to Itachi's heart or is that because of the genjutsu he accidentally pulled himself under?  There is no way to know that.


For design *10*

For personality *4* because he was an abusive brother and too distant from his family.  I should make it *6* because the Uchiha are very stoic and hiding of their feelings, true to the Japanese way.

For character in the story ? because I still wait to see how everything plays out and if Kishimoto intends to ride the wave of "genocide is good if it keeps current politicians in power" all the way to the end, I would give Itachi a traitorous 1.   If things are different and there is something special about Sasuke as Itachi said "If only I had told you the truth from the begining, you would have saved father and mother and the Uchiha", or is it just that simple that it could have been Sasuke as Fugaku started the coup?

He is sexy and beautiful.

He is a genius at fighting.

He has no idea how to treat another human being.

I don't know if I have it in me to actually vote in the poll, but maybe writing this will help someone make up their own mind after putting these into perspective.


----------



## BlinkST (Aug 4, 2013)

Super god.


----------



## Klue (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10

Written fairly well, and his name alone tends to stir up the boards quite a bit.



Frawstbite said:


> 5/10
> 
> I simply don't believe the character we had at the beginning was ever supposed to be the character we have now. Either that or everything surrounding the Itachi is pretty poorly written.
> 
> In my opinion.



I don't know bro, these pages tend to stick out to me a bit more now:


*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 









I believe everything here fits along with:


----------



## ed17 (Aug 4, 2013)

so much hate in this thread 

10/10 for the king


----------



## Ernie (Aug 4, 2013)

It has nothing to do with hate, but Itachi is like some kind of Maru Sue. I hate that. 

I would have give a 5/10, but sorry, due to some of his fans, it's a 1.


----------



## KingBoo (Aug 4, 2013)

he's a 1010. i mean 10/10

+fulfilled the mysterious evil-doer role quite well.

+master of the basics. feinting and shurikens, just how i imagined a ninja would fight.

+the ace or the skilled one. can easily mix and match tai, nin, and genjutsu for amazing effects.

+introduced the readers to the sharingan/uchiha history. also dropped hints on uchiha madara (other hints being the valley, and kurama's comments on sauske's energy)

+introduced the readers to akatsuki, which was another big mysterious entity. and later you learn sasori, HIDAN, deidara, nagato are all part of this cool club for cool people.

+he is the story mover. sauske left the village because of him. orochimaru wanted a great uchiha, but not too great because of him. his words even made sauske bring orochimaru back, which lead to the hokages helping out right now. thanks to him, madara has a chance to deploy his trap card on hashirama (maybe) for greater power.

+the mentor. taught sauske hatred. taught naruto the dangers of genjutsu. later taught naruto on what it means to be hokage, and that every jutsu has a weakness. even taught kabuto a lesson instead of murdering him...and maybe he taught orochimaru indirectly!

+one of the few characters to have faced an actual serious....sadistic problem. his family or his village. his brother's life or his clan's honor. kill the "few" to save the many type situation. he was a character that can't enjoy the privileges of being in a kid's comic of having everything go his way and coming up on top with no real harm done (ex: chouji kills his sensei...who is already dead. 5 countries uniting to fight plants so it's ok to kill them. etc.). 

+his partner was kisame, and he was pretty badass too.








*Spoiler*: __ 



 according to the 3rd, he was hokage level at 7. even hashirama acknowledges that itachi is better than him


----------



## Yachiru (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10, because...

- He solos.
- He always wins his fights.
- Most complex personality in the manga, ever. Doesn't whine over a crush (Obito) or any bullshit like that.
- Mindfuckery x1000.
- Handsome.
- Best threads and shitstorms for your time here.
- Beautiful fanarts


----------



## Default (Aug 4, 2013)

I voted 10/10 for the written character in the manga, the almighty King


----------



## punisher223 (Aug 4, 2013)

4/10

To me his character is complex, detailed, ambiguous, and interesting yet irrational, conflicted, contradicted, and illogical. He comes off as unremorseful of his actions besides fucking up "sauske" Plus it annoys me when he is praised by some of the characters in the manga and fans, this man committed genocide on his entire clan (men,women,children, elders......minus sauske)

Though he could have been written better he does have a cool design and fighting style.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 4, 2013)

Itachi, Itachi, Itachi.

His demeanor, his stealthiness, his secretiveness, his almost everything draws you to want to find out everything about him.
He's a true genius burdened with such massive expectations only to find out he's really a peaceful person trapped in a shinobi system where he's one who's able to take that next step in keeping peace in his village.
His willingness to sacrifice himself to protect the Uchiha name and his brother is mind-blowing.
You add all this up and no wonder he's ill.  One can only take on so much before breaking down.

He comes off as your best friend in battle ensuring victory no matter how bleak your situation is.  Calm, cool and collective fits him to a tee.

Replace Madara with him as Hashi's friend and all's well. 

But still, killing your own parents and making your lil' bro go nuts is a bit over the top.  Then depending on Naruto to clean up your mess with Sasuke, hmmm.

9/10. Great character. Worst fans.


----------



## Lolitalush (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10


----------



## Kisame (Aug 4, 2013)

Itachi was always an interesting character to me, him turning out to be a good guy in the end made him *extremely* interesting.

What I also really like about him is that he embraces some gestures of the Uchiha (fighting style/looks) so you can tell he emits "Uchiha!", but at the same time, he is not as similar in their flawed ideologies as his drive was "love" as opposed to the Uchiha's "hate". It's like his paying homage but he's still unique in some cool way.

8/10.


----------



## Golden Circle (Aug 4, 2013)

Itachi and Nagato are the only 10/10 people in this manga, and I have voted accordingly.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 4, 2013)

*Personality*
Initially his personality was pretty original and twisted, being willing to kill off his own family to test his strength. However with the extremely obvious plot twist coming to fruition with Itachi becoming "good", he kind of just became a Shonen manga archetype. You know the one where the bishi character who seems evil turns out to be "good", whose also usually a family member. It's not a horrible archetype, but it's not too great ether. 

Itachi's intelligence, composure, and some of his dialog lines are good though. So while his personality isn't great, it isn't horrible ether, for me he's average.

*Back Story*
I used to respect Itachi's character for the difficult situation he was put in where he had to choose between the village and his clan, but Kishi ruined that when he suggested all Itachi had to was talk to Sasuke. At least Kishi did have Itachi realize his mistakes, which gave him some credit back in my eyes.

*Fighting Style*
I enjoy Itachi's fighting style when it focus on his quick hand-seals, throwing weapons skill, and basic Ninjutsu. I also like the idea of naming his strongest Jutsu after the Japanese Gods and his usage of crows. 

However to me Itachi's/Sharingan's Genjutsu style has always missed the point of what Genjutsu should be. Genjutsu should be about deception like how Kakashi used it vs Zabuza or Sasuke used it against Danzo, not about hax. And what's sad is Itachi kind of marked the end of good Genjutsu in this manga. I also thinmk MS shouldn't have been developed since it totally changed the premise of the Sharingan, from a copy bloodline to it just giving hax abilities. Sharingan evolutions should have just allowed the user to copy higher level copying abilities.

I also think Koto Crow is the biggest Deus Ex Machina moment in any work of fiction i've ever seen.

So overall I don't really care for Itachi's fighting style.

*Conclusion*
Itachi's an average character for me, there's somethings I like about him, but other things hold him back. 5/10


----------



## Cord (Aug 4, 2013)

Ernie said:


> It has nothing to do with hate, but Itachi is like some kind of Maru Sue. I hate that.
> 
> I would have give a 5/10, but sorry, due to some of his fans, it's a 1.



Then you shouldn't have voted in this poll in the first place if you're just basing your vote on the character's fan base, instead of the character itself.


----------



## dungsi27 (Aug 4, 2013)

8/10.

He possesses a vast arsenal,through most of which Im not really interested in. His jutsus are cool however they fit more to a type of powerful boss who just stands still in battle (part 1 Itachi to the Sasukes fight),more than good guys taking out big boss. Only his genjutsu looks cool (that is, when panels still show use inside the genjutsu world, outside of that, again two people standing still,not much)

His personality is that of a complex,mysterious,wise & quiet yet tough-minded guy, whos willing to commit evils for greater good. However potraying this kind of character maybe a task too much for Kishi,leading him to write Itachi doing some weird & unreasonable things sometimes, which kinda ruins him as a whole for me. Itachi is no where near the level of Rowlings Snape

His backstory is what shines the most for him. Cruel, tragic, mysterious, and what a twist (still based on an unreasonable action with controversial moral though)

His appearance design is nothing special, with those weird long,well, marks, on his face. All I can say is that he looks cool in the Akatsuki cloak,and the cloak somehow visually supports his fighting style more than other Akatsuki members.


----------



## ImSerious (Aug 4, 2013)

10/10


one of my favs


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 4, 2013)

He gains a 10/10 from me due to finding out what were his true colors all along after his death. I liked him since that point.


----------



## Alita (Aug 4, 2013)

1 out of 10.

Worst character in the manga by far. Him and sasuke are the only things about this manga I truly hate with a passion.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 5, 2013)

Itachi is that sort of character... I don't agree with many of his decisions, but I understand his feelings and what he longs for, so he's one of the most interesting characters to read. Well, everything has already been said by others about that, background, personality, goals... Furthermore, there is the sort of feeling, he may not drive the plot, that's Sasuke. However, Itachi is the car Sasuke drives the plot with. Not sure about what kind of car Itachi would be IRL, I'm fond of Lancia Stratos myself but who knows. Regardless, 10 / 10 from me.


----------



## Kisame (Aug 5, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Then you shouldn't have voted in this poll in the first place if you're just basing your vote on the character's fan base, instead of the character itself.


What if the fans caused him to dislike the character?


----------



## Cord (Aug 5, 2013)

Shark said:


> What if the fans caused him to dislike the character?



He already said that he dislike the character because he's a Mary Sue and would've given him a 5. But because of his fan base that might have apparently annoyed him, he decided to give him 1 instead and based the vote solely on that. He let the fandom completely influence his vote and threw away his standards.

That can hardly ever be considered a genuine vote, but I guess that's to be expected in these popularity polls anyway.


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10. Strong, one of the few characters who isn't one-dimensional. Good dialog lines.


----------



## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10

It has already been said. Plus, Itachi is a character who kind of challenged my mind, some stuff that he said i keep to this day


----------



## Abz10 (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10
Amazing character 
Amazing techniques
I didnt like his izanami asspull
and the genocide of his clan but he acknowledged his mistakes.
That final speech to sasuke :'(


----------



## KevKev (Aug 5, 2013)

JPongo said:


> Itachi, Itachi, Itachi.
> 
> His demeanor, his stealthiness, his secretiveness, his almost everything draws you to want to find out everything about him.
> He's a true genius burdened with such massive expectations only to find out he's really a peaceful person trapped in a shinobi system where he's one who's able to take that next step in keeping peace in his village.
> ...



Jumpin' Jesus on a pogo stick. JPongo speaking well of Itachi? Well, my bricks shat bricks. 

If only Vice could do the same. 

His Soloiness. The GOAT. The Solo King. 10/10


----------



## Nep Nep (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10 This is going to be interesting. This character is going to have an amusing balance of 10's and 1's.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Aug 5, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



*People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be merely "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts...Their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs? *

*We don't know what kind of people we truly are until the moment before our deaths. As death comes to embrace you, you will realize what you are. That's what death is, don't you think?*

2 of the deepest quotes from Naruto, spoken by the wise man who is considered as genius even in the elite Uchiha clan, the man who experiences and abides too much as a human.

He has overwhelming power. He tricks 3 elite Konoha Jonin as dolls, he is admitted to be stronger than 1 of the Legendary Sannin, he is praised to be the best Genjutsu user during his era, he shows excellent Ninja skills, he possesses Imperial Regalia, his Dojutsu controls time and space freely. 

But what makes him formidable is his intelligence. Being hyped to have Hokage's mind in 7-year-old, he reads people's mind easily and uses it for weapon in battle. His plan is nearly perfect that it even surprises the true Akatsuki leader after his death. He foresees his little brother may be manipulated and has prepared for solutions. He hates the ignorance of his clan, he fully understands how contradictory a life of Shinobi is that he must make decisions. 

He is marked as traitor, S-rank criminal by the Shinobi world. The man who sacrifices all to protect the Shinobi world, the beloved village and the repetition of his clan, is treated as a villain. None understands the burden he carries, the pain he suffers. But he accepts it, he kills his heart and dirt his hands with blood from relatives, he shows no regret to his acts and he wants the truth to be hidden within darkness forever. Though does he peacefully die? No, he lies, he hasn't fulfill his duty as brother. He doesn't keep his promise.

He is revived through Edo Tensei afterward. He decides to end the Great Ninja War by stopping Edo Tensei. Surprisingly, he meets his little brother again. He chooses another path after he finds Kabuto, who has similar past life. We learn Itachi more as human, he gives sense of humor, he admits his failure. As he says, human nature stays the same until he dies, so he changes, he performs the role as brother instead of a Konoha Shinobi, he leaves his last words with nothing more but his love to his little brother.
*
I always lied to you, telling you to forgive me. I used this hands to keep you far, far away from me...... I did not want...... you to get involved...... But now...... I think maybe...... you could have changed father and mother...... changed the Uchiha. If I would have faced you from the start, stood at the same viewpoint as you, and spoke to you about the truth...... But I failed, and speaking to you now like this isn't going to tell you anything. That's why, I just wanted to show you the truth, even just a little.*

The first and last, he doesn't poke his forehead and express his true feelings:

*You never have to forgive me...... No matter what happens to you from here on out, I will always love you.*

His final words spoken with a smile. Finally he is relieved from pain, he has no more attachments to the world and can rest in peace. 

You hate war, but you love your little brother more. Itachi Uchiha, you will be forever in our hearts. 




10/10 for the greatest Uchiha, the most complex character in Narutoverse.


----------



## Language of Life (Aug 5, 2013)

I gave him a 4/10.

Design - best thing about him, but then again all Uchiha are designed pretty well with a few exceptions (Sauskes chicken hair)

Personality - Extremely freaking complex. Complex to a fault because Kishi got so far into it that he really started to contradict himself and make Itachi about as hard to follow and read as Sauske. Im pretty convinced that all the Uchiha are bipolar. 

Character - he played his part well enough, with the exception of the whole Sauske fuck up which he may have fixed at the end here. But being the biggest mary sue in the manga is a huge negative. I don't like it when authors play favorites. 

Abilities - it is common routine for me to take off a point just for the MS. Stupid, convenient, spoonfed power ups is all the MS is. Thankfully Itachi was one of the few that did not spam the MS to death and i usually enjoyed watching him fight with the exception of the beginning of his fight against Sauske and most of his fight against Kabuto.


----------



## zuul (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10

I like his design the best out of all the character.
I also like his backstory with his clan and bro the best out of all the storyline.
I absolutelly adore the fact this godly dude is humble enough to praise someone as weak as Kurenai...
He was also getting laid at 14. 

he's perfect (despite having made fucked up decisions regarding sasuke ). 
My fav character.


----------



## Dr Black (Aug 5, 2013)

1/10. Kishi wanks the shit out of him for no good reason. He should've stayed the stoic, sociopathic badass that Kishi made him out to be in Part 1. The retarded twist that he was the good guy all along is just retarded. Also he made the Akatsuki way more disappointing than expected. When he and Kisame strolled into Konoha and owned everyone we thought Akatsuki was beast. Turns out Itachi was just one of the best in the organization. Plus he's full of ass pulls and plot holes.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Also he's incetuous. Can't fade that.


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 5, 2013)

Soooooo damn boring
1/10


----------



## Final Jutsu (Aug 5, 2013)

7.  He would have been a 9 or 10 if he was left dead.  Went down hill after he became an Edo.


----------



## auem (Aug 5, 2013)

no _chudur budur_.....simply 10/10.....


----------



## Rain (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10 the best written character in naruto.


----------



## Annabella (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10 for Itachi.

-Intriguing personality. He makes me want to write and try to work out his complex character that way xD
-He has had a significant impact on the story and we've learned a lot of important info from him.
-Well written, Kishi really made me care for his character.
-Amazing quotes.
-Compelling backstory, it's easily one of the best.
- interesting interactions with other characters and the affect he has on them.
-fighting style and techniques (I remember when I first saw his susanoo and i was like  )are amazing.
-intelligent, calm, humble, selfless, loving, honest at the end. I like all that.
-He has a great design  it's really fun to draw Itachi :33


----------



## Yagami1211 (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10 for the king.


----------



## Rosi (Aug 5, 2013)

5/10.

He was once my fave, one of the few reasons I got interested in this manga in the first place. But some things unfortunately change though.
I'm on the fence between heavily disliking him and feeling indifferent these days.

I'm pretty sure if I never joined the fandom though, my opinion of him would've remained quite the same. Well, almost. I'd still hate what Kishi has done to him all the way through after "whitewashing" him(which I originally loved as a nice plot twist). He eventually became such a boring and awful character 

Horrible, cringe-worthy fanbase and author's obsession with him doesn't help either(the same as with Minato).


----------



## Vargas (Aug 5, 2013)

Villain Itachi 11/10
Mary Sue Hero  Itachi -1/10


----------



## -JT- (Aug 5, 2013)

Damn, just remembered Izanami. Maybe I should have knocked an extra point off for that heck of an asspull...


----------



## Dr Black (Aug 5, 2013)

Laxus Dreyar said:


> Villain Itachi 11/10
> Mary Sue Hero  Itachi -1/10



Honestly this is the only rational opinion


----------



## shibunari (Aug 5, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> 10/10 for the greatest Uchiha, the most complex character in Narutoverse.





Itachi is the BEST! 10/10


----------



## azurelegance (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10. Itachi is a thought-provoking character that grew on me over time. My favorite character alongside another.


----------



## Bonly (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10.

Love everything about him. He did what was best for peace and saved a shitload of lives by prevent the civil war followed by FGNW at that time while dealing with all the heart ache. I love his badass ways of part one, his design, his intelligence, his wisdom, the screen time he gets and his jutsu. Always trying to help the village out in his own way which in the end usually works out decently most of the time.


----------



## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Aug 5, 2013)

Fanboys vs haters again. I like him. 10/10. Cant imagine a manga without him. If it's not for him, sasuke would have sucked bigtime


----------



## Saru (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10.

I can appreciate a character who is so carefully developed. Such a complex character. Not totally transparent like many other characters and has one of the flyest skillsets. I also like his nigh unparalleled level of intelligence and his wisdom. He's someone who's brain I would like to pick.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 5, 2013)

Probably the best character in the manga behind Kakashi. He's a Mary Sue, but ultimately for the sake of the story. Sasuke's motivation and Naruto's chase, the main plot point of the story, is (mainly) because of him. His own story is also one of the most complex, although at times convoluted and even nonsensical, but that's true for the entire story. Still, a character that has driven the plot for the longest time with the most interesting story warrants a 10/10 for me.

To quote the databook entry on Itachi:
"_As the one who holds the tangled strings of relationships that connect the past and future, when he moves, the wheels of destiny turns._"​


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 5, 2013)

Pros:

>Nice design (though the nail polish diminishes it a bit for me) and fighting style
>Helped defeat Kabuto thus ending the edo tensei jutsu
>Genius intellect
>Always fought for the sake of the village
>Very strong/skilled shinobi

Cons:


>His actions during the Uchiha Massacre. (I don't nor will I ever condone killing innocent children, even if it is for the sake of the village)
>Bad brother. Torturing your brother and fueling him with hate is despicable. And we've all seen what Sasuke turned into because of those actions.
>Hardly any personality

Result: 8/10


----------



## slickcat (Aug 5, 2013)

9/10 , that cool calculated demeanor, genjutsu specialist( I hate genjutsu) regardless hes a cool badass,who knows what to say when to say it. Oh and quite speedy too.


----------



## FoxxyKat (Aug 5, 2013)

8/10. Liked him as a villian, though.


----------



## AvengeRpro (Aug 5, 2013)

Undeniably the most complex character, who happens to have the best panels and lines in the manga.




The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Cons:
> >His actions during the Uchiha Massacre. (I don't nor will I ever condone killing innocent children, even if it is for the sake of the village)
> >Bad brother. Torturing your brother and fueling him with hate is despicable. And we've all seen what Sasuke turned into because of those actions.
> >Hardly any personality



Itachi is not a person. It's a character.


----------



## lathia (Aug 5, 2013)

I'm not going to judge Itachi based on his character (lolKishi) that would force me to give him a 4 or so. Instead, I'll vote based on his looks and fighting style.


----------



## Magicbullet (Aug 5, 2013)

9 because I like him, but wouldn't put him among the best.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Aug 5, 2013)

#theKING   #itachisoloZ   #getinmybottle


----------



## Mako (Aug 5, 2013)

I'm going to be completely honest and give Itachi an 8.5/10.


----------



## Lolitalush (Aug 5, 2013)

Fruit Monger said:


> #theKING   #itachisoloZ   *#getinmybottle*



Laughed.


----------



## Black Sheep (Aug 5, 2013)

Vice said:


> 1/10 only because I can't vote in the negatives. His fanclub only makes me hate him more.



This

1/10 from me as well. Worst. Uchiha. Ever.


----------



## Dr Black (Aug 5, 2013)

Jayaraman MinatoItachi said:


> Fanboys vs haters again. I like him. 10/10. Cant imagine a manga without him. If it's not for him, sasuke would have sucked bigtime



Ironic because Sasuke DOES suck bigtime


----------



## Jagger (Aug 5, 2013)

5/10 at best. I don't hate him nor I like him.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 5, 2013)

Itachi was Hokage level at the age of 7. 10/10


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 5, 2013)

6.

I dislike his reasons for torturing Sasuke and causing hell on him. I like the idea of character but I hate how Kishimoto tries to justify genocide.

It's a bit get and go situation for me but I'm giving above average for making me cry with his last words.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

I don't understand why anybody would judge a character based on their fandom.

Like, that has nothing to do with the character; it's not like Itachi or even Kishimoto has a say in who he appeals to. That's like judging a political candidate based on their constituency (which would automatically make every single politician, anywhere, ever, a bad one). And beside that, it's not like every single person in the entire fandom is bad; people aren't defined by their like or dislike of Itachi.

It's such a shitty excuse. What about YOU? Do YOU like Itachi? Your answer shouldn't depend on someone else's answer. Have some God damned individuality.


----------



## Revolution (Aug 5, 2013)

Ernie said:


> It has nothing to do with hate, but Itachi is like some kind of Maru Sue. I hate that.
> 
> I would have give a 5/10, but sorry, due to some of his fans, it's a 1.



Itachi - gets manipulated into betraying his family

- rapes his brother metaphorically twice

- fails to protect Sasuke, instead turns him into a criminal

- won't listen to Kabuto on making situations worse and makes things worse

- gets labeled a Mary Sue for his fighting ability


----------



## Revolution (Aug 5, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Itachi was Hokage level at the age of 7. 10/10



Yeah, "so we placed an unfathomable burden on his shoulders"

Konoha gets a 0/10 from me.


----------



## Vice (Aug 5, 2013)

He wasn't hokage-level at 7. This is one of the many ways that people can hate the character because of the fans. Intentionally taking shit out of context just to wank the guy.


----------



## Kakashisauce (Aug 5, 2013)

I gave Itachi a 5/10 because, although he had good intentions and was forced to make a ridiculously hard decision so young in life, I feel like he hurt a lot of people for absolutely no reason. He's made out to be incredibly smart, yet he makes intensely flawed decisions. Which, hey; we all make bad decisions. But Itachi's bad decisions send certain people stark raving mad for half their lives to seemingly no advantage. I also don't see why he had to make Kakashi friggen suffer for 72 hours or however the hell long it was if he wasn't actually an enemy of Konoha -_- And more along those lines.


----------



## Shakar (Aug 5, 2013)

6, because I liked evil Itachi a lot, as a "good guy" he's fairly boring and preachy though.


----------



## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2013)

man, evil Itachi days were the days...the ItaSasu fanfics were way more thrilling


----------



## -JT- (Aug 5, 2013)

Evil Itachi was actually a good character


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Vice said:


> He wasn't hokage-level at 7. This is one of the many ways that people can hate the character because of the fans. Intentionally taking shit out of context just to wank the guy.



Itachi was Hokage-level in terms of his judgment/wisdom/insightfulness; that was literally what Hiruzen stated and the entire point of him stating it.

If you're upset because some people twist it around to hype Itachi's combat prowess instead, you may as well go burn a cross on the front lawn of a mental hospital, because what you are doing is fundamentally tantamount to that.

Hating retards isn't going to fix their condition; it's just going to worsen yours.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 5, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> man, evil Itachi days were the days...the ItaSasu fanfics were way more thrilling



yeah they're now too fluffy and sweet :/


----------



## Dr Black (Aug 5, 2013)

Sarahmint said:


> Itachi - gets manipulated into betraying his family
> 
> - rapes his brother metaphorically twice
> 
> ...



More like gets labeled Mary Sue because even after all of this, everyone paints him in a perfect light. He's basically the shining example of shinobi according to everyone in the series. You can hardly say he was manipulated because he was even given a choice between his family and the village. He murders his family and then still gets away with being the good guy. What? Also his Sharingan is so hax it's hardly even a fighting skill, it's basically a plot devoce which allows him to do whatever the fuck so long as Kishi has a Shinto god to name it after.

Hokage level wisdom at the age of 7? And you want to argue that he's not a mary sue?


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 5, 2013)

I have been advocating Itachi almost longer than anyone on NF and that won't change today. Itachi is by far one of my favorite characters, right next to Minato, Fugaku, and Shino. 

People claim he is a Sue, but even Itachi admitted he failed multiple times. Itachi is one of the few ninja that could handle such a huge burden at such a young age. 

If this had been Pre Skip Itachi it would be a 10/10, but I give current Itachi a 9/10.


----------



## Dr Black (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't understand why anybody would judge a character based on their fandom.
> 
> Like, that has nothing to do with the character; it's not like Itachi or even Kishimoto has a say in who he appeals to. That's like judging a political candidate based on their constituency (which would automatically make every single politician, anywhere, ever, a bad one). And beside that, it's not like every single person in the entire fandom is bad; people aren't defined by their like or dislike of Itachi.
> 
> It's such a shitty excuse. What about YOU? Do YOU like Itachi? Your answer shouldn't depend on someone else's answer. Have some God damned individuality.



The way I see it, what it mainly is being neutral towards the character but then their fandom makes simply hearing about that character unbearable. Doesn't help if the fandom is stupid. For example, when I started Soul Eater, I couldn't care less about Death the Kid. Unfortunately, half of Soul Eater's fandom consists of retarded Kid fans. This, coupled with the fact that I find Kid uninteresting and not worth even thinking about makes me hate Kid. It's actually a fairly simple concept. It's almost like hype backlash.


----------



## Shattering (Aug 5, 2013)

Sarahmint said:


> Itachi - gets manipulated into betraying his family



Nobody manipulated Itachi, Danzo gave him 2 options, join the Uchiha against Konoha or kill them and save his brother, considering that he knew Obito was around attempting to revive the flames of war he chose the best option by far.



Sarahmint said:


> - won't listen to Kabuto on making situations worse and makes things worse



What?


----------



## Lolitalush (Aug 5, 2013)

Dr Black said:


> The way I see it, what it mainly is being neutral towards the character but then their fandom makes simply hearing about that character unbearable. Doesn't help if the fandom is stupid. For example, when I started Soul Eater, I couldn't care less about Death the Kid. Unfortunately, half of Soul Eater's fandom consists of retarded Kid fans. This, coupled with the fact that I find Kid uninteresting and not worth even thinking about makes me hate Kid. It's actually a fairly simple concept. It's almost like hype backlash.



I don't think they were saying it wasn't a simple concept, seems they were simply saying it's stupid either way and shows a lack of individuality.

I'm inclined to agree.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 5, 2013)

Sarahmint said:


> Itachi - gets manipulated into betraying his family
> 
> - rapes his brother metaphorically twice
> 
> ...



There was no way in hell that Itachi could possibly have predicted that canceling Edo Tensei would make Madara immortal.

And Kabuto didn't know it could happen, either, so I don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## Addy (Aug 5, 2013)

am i the only one who started to like itachi AFTER we knew he was not a villain?


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 5, 2013)

Addy said:


> am i the only one who started to like itachi AFTER we knew he was not a villain?



I thought it was rather obvious from the beginning that he wasn't a villain, so I guess I am sort of in that category. I liked him when I knew he was not a villain, even though that was in Part 1 for me.


----------



## Rios (Aug 5, 2013)

Addy said:


> am i the only one who started to like itachi AFTER we knew he was not a villain?



never pictured you as a fan of the good guys


----------



## Emo_Princess (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10.  
Much better in part one though.


----------



## Lolitalush (Aug 5, 2013)

I saw E-touch not really being evil coming from a mile away, so I always kind of knew he was good anyway when I started liking him.

I never really saw him as a villain, nor have I ever really seen the other Akatsuki members as villains in the typical sense. 

I think I read somewhere that Kishi tries to show their POV/reasoning as well/so it's not so black and white, so that was his intention anyway.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Dr Black said:


> The way I see it, what it mainly is being neutral towards the character but then their fandom makes simply hearing about that character unbearable. Doesn't help if the fandom is stupid. For example, when I started Soul Eater, I couldn't care less about Death the Kid. Unfortunately, half of Soul Eater's fandom consists of retarded Kid fans. This, coupled with the fact that I find Kid uninteresting and not worth even thinking about makes me hate Kid. It's actually a fairly simple concept. It's almost like hype backlash.



Makes no sense to me.

How other people choose to conduct themselves only determines how I feel about them. My likes and dislikes are my own, and they aren't going to change simply because someone I don't like shares them.

All I can figure is that people who think in such a way aren't really thinking at all. It sounds like Pavlovian conditioning, wherein exposure to a certain stimulus leads to an unpleasant experience and a subsequent association made between the two.


----------



## Vice (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi was Hokage-level in terms of his judgment/wisdom/insightfulness; that was literally what Hiruzen stated and the entire point of him stating it.



Yeah, except that's not what is being implied here and you and I both know it.



> If you're upset because some people twist it around to hype Itachi's combat prowess instead, you may as well go burn a cross on the front lawn of a mental hospital, because what you are doing is fundamentally tantamount to that.



What in the flying fuck does this even mean? 



> Hating retards isn't going to fix their condition; it's just going to worsen yours.



My main problem is why they have to act like retards in the first place.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Vice said:


> Yeah, except that's not what is being implied here and you and I both know it.



_Who cares?_



> What in the flying fuck does this even mean?



It means you are basically hating the mentally-handicapped for being mentally-handicapped. Don't know how I could've illustrated that any more clearly; burning a cross on the front lawn of a mental hospital is some pretty profound hyperbole.



> My main problem is why they have to act like retards in the first place.



Some people were not fortunate enough to be born possessing normal human cognitive faculties. What are you achieving by holding it against them?


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 5, 2013)

Who cares if people hate characters because of their fandom. That goes on in every manga. It's natural. You hate hearing how they're great at this or how they're strong as fuck and you start to resent the character because you're tired of hearing it. 

It's no different than having to constantly listen to people talk about how great LBJ, Tom Brady, Pujols, etc ,etc  are. People finally get sick of it and start to resent them. Not me, though. LeBron's easily my favorite player in the NBA.


----------



## Alaude (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10 

He's one of my favorite characters.


----------



## Toonz (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10 

I mean.....come on who doesn't like crazy faces...??


----------



## Blur (Aug 5, 2013)

The King could get only a 10/10.


----------



## Shiny (Aug 5, 2013)

itachi soloes


----------



## queenofepic (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10!

I absolutely LOVE Itachi. He's been my second favorite character for a long time. He's awesome.


----------



## Miyoshi (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10 because Narutoforums said so.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Aug 5, 2013)

10 out of 10 just because Dragonus Nesha is deleting the butthurt posts.
I've... I... I've never seen so many posts deleted before...



I don't like Itachi's choices. He was nothing more than a pawn of the Leaf.
He died like a dog all for his own sense of honor.
Honor serving a village that shitted on the Uchiha Clan since Tobirama's hokagehood.
Itachi is so flawed, but I guess that is Kishimoto's way of having a good story.
I accept it for what it is.


----------



## Ernie (Aug 5, 2013)

Itachi WAS a good char during part 1, one of the best. During part 2 he was a lame mofo. I don't gave a shit about his story (was that supposed to be sad, the cunt killed children ) and his fight with Kabuto was fucking terrible.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Itachi never killed any children, unless you're talking about the Uchiha who _may have been_ around his age and involved in the coup like he was himself.

On that subject, we don't actually know of any Uchiha around Itachi's age at the time, let alone younger; he had a lover, apparently, but we don't know how old she was.

The criteria Itachi gave for sparing Sasuke were literally:

1) He's an Uchiha; I want to ultimately be defeated by an Uchiha to restore the clan's honor.
2) He was too young to be involved in the coup.


----------



## Ernie (Aug 5, 2013)

He killed his clan, right? Pretty sure there were children, woman and elderly people in it too...


Believing Sasuke was the only young one...


----------



## Divinstrosity (Aug 5, 2013)

0/10.

For me to rate Itachi is to imply his awesomeness can be quantified and defined within the contextual parameters of a poll.


----------



## Vice (Aug 5, 2013)

The manga confirmed that there were innocent children.


----------



## Daenerys Stormborn (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10 of course.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Ernie said:


> He killed his clan, right? Pretty sure there were children, woman and elderly people in it too...
> 
> 
> Believing Sasuke was the only young one...



It interests me that the people who say this are never able to provide evidence of the existence of any children Itachi allegedly slaughtered, let alone that he slaughtered them.



Vice said:


> The manga confirmed that there were innocent children.



Show me?


----------



## Daenerys Stormborn (Aug 5, 2013)

Vice said:


> The manga confirmed that there were innocent children.



Actually, one trait of the Japanese language is that there's no distinction between the singular and plural forms of a word--for example, the correct plural of "ninja" is "ninja", not "ninja*s*."  Thus, Danzou's "including the innocent children" line could have originally meant either "including the innocent children [plural]" or "including the innocent *child* [singular, presumably referring to Sasuke]."


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2013)

^ OWNED




Vice said:


> The manga confirmed that there were innocent children.



Who cares this is a manga about ninjas for crying out loud

Everyone who goes to the academy is trained to kill at 6-7 in this manga and some even younger but for some reason the truth seems to escape certain members of the forum

He was a GODDAM NINJA. 

By the way IT WAS NEVER CONFIRMED STOP TROLLING.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Yeah, that particular translation has been discussed before (at great length; I actually have the thread bookmarked ).

The word Danzou used was "子供" ("kodomo"), which is ambiguously "child/children."

He doesn't specifically say or imply that there was more than one. When he confronts Itachi about the decision later, Sasuke is the only one he says can be spared.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Yeah, that particular translation has been discussed before (at great length; I actually have the thread bookmarked ).
> 
> The word Danzou used was "子供" ("kodomo"), which is ambiguously "child/children."
> 
> He doesn't specifically say or imply that there was more than one. When he confronts Itachi about the decision later, Sasuke is the only one he says can be spared.



I don't know why people harp on this one so much, either. 

1) It isn't impossible to think that Sasuke was the youngest Uchiha at the time.
2) Kids went to ninja academy at age 8 _or earlier_. That means that while they are training, they are still technically already soldiers at a very young age.
3) Worst-case scenario: Everyone is right and he killed a dozen kids under the age of eight. Did Itachi have a choice in the matter? Yea, I guess he could have just made TWELVE Sasukes instead of one...

You'd think after we learned that Fugaku and Mikoto told him to kill them, and that they understood exactly why he was doing it, people would lay off the "OMG HE KILLED INNOCENTS???" mantra, but I guess attempting to understand his actions from within the story won't be happening any time soon.


----------



## CtrlAltPwn (Aug 5, 2013)

Its almost impossible to imagine for 8 years the Uchiha's stop producing children. Seems highly unlikely Sasuke was the youngest Uchiha. 

We would be assuming the entire Uchiha clan all of a sudden become sterile after the birth of Sasuke or a law was passed for them not to reproduce. That long of a drought is unlikely, especially of a clan who always aimed to grow in numbers and prideful of their lineage.

Uchiha comes off as a clan who would encourage more of their people to produce kids so they can preserve and expand their clan. If no kids were born for such a long time, it sounds like this clan was already a dying breed before Itachi even tried to exterminate them.

Nobody can say for sure Itachi killed innocent kids without witnessing it, but considering the final outcome its more likely he did. Although I'd like to consider he killed them gently perhaps by poisoning them with a painless death.

Also nobody knows how big or small the clan was at the time, but I have no reason to believe it was any less than the other clans like the Hyuuga. If the clan had only a handful of families then the chances of Sasuke being the youngest would be believable.


----------



## santanico (Aug 5, 2013)

stupid move on kishi, showing us _one_ uchiha child


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2013)

Itachi was 13 sasuke was 7 they could of very well currently been the youngest members.

Did you see any other kids get pointed out by the other kids as a Uchiha in class? why did they act like sasuke was the only one? and had never seen Uchiha before? 

Obito was also the only Uchiha at school in his generation at the academy why do people forget this? 

Did wee see Sasuke play with other kids? why was only sasuke walking home at night from school? COMMON SENSE he was the only one who was a child.

Uchiha clan had gotten smaller compared to the past plain and simple.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 5, 2013)

Yeh and this is why the Itachi fandom minus a few (only me actually) cling on to anything and everything to try and make Itachi perfect when he stated he himself was a failure.


If you don't believe that Uchihas banged for eight years please leave the forums. Itachi killed innocent kids. Deal with it.


----------



## santanico (Aug 5, 2013)

I'm sure there were other uchiha children, they were killed by both Obito and Itachi, sad truth unless we're told otherwise in the future but I hardly doubt it...

And you guys need to stop with this "itachi is a monster", other shinobi's you so admire killed children too, they're shinobi. So if you think your favorite character is innocent of wrong doing, _you _need to leave the forums as well


----------



## Lolitalush (Aug 5, 2013)

Itachi was imperfectly perfect!


----------



## Cybore (Aug 5, 2013)

11/10

Itachi Solos


----------



## Rai (Aug 5, 2013)

1/10
Black hair.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Funny how many people say this yet not a single one of them has ever been able to provide evidence.
> 
> You are all wrong. Deal with it.



Its not on me to provide evidence, especially when it was specifically stated in the manga Itachi killed children. 

Oh wait, your an expert in the Japanese language now aren't you. Fuck outta here


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Its not on me to provide evidence, especially when it was specifically stated in the manga Itachi killed children.



Except it wasn't; I spent literally the entire last two pages explaining that.



> Oh wait, your an expert in the Japanese language now aren't you. Fuck outta here



No, but , so take your foot out of your mouth and educate yourself.

They disagreed with each other on the meaning, but both agreed that it was ambiguous wording.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi never killed any children, unless you're talking about the Uchiha who _may have been_ around his age and involved in the coup like he was himself.
> You would not concede that it is truly absurd to think the Uchiha women were not sexing without protection
> On that subject, we don't actually know of any Uchiha around Itachi's age at the time, let alone younger; he had a lover, apparently, but we don't know how old she was.
> Lover was female? Proof please.
> ...


The bit about Sasuke is true, although he did put his bro ABOVE the village.  Not Hokage level if you ask me.



Nikushimi said:


> It interests me that the people who say this are never able to provide evidence of the existence of any children Itachi allegedly slaughtered, let alone that he slaughtered them.


So to support Itachi's battle prowess, his fans say he slaughtered the Uchiha clan himself.
But now that we are talking about right and wrong, there is no direct proof he slaughtered any children, let alone the rest of the clan.

WTF is that all about?  Make up your damn mind.



Shattering said:


> Itachi said he didn't killed Sasuke because he was a kid and didn't know a shit so I find more absurd your attempt to prove the opposite without nothing to support it bar subjetive translations when the logic way to go is that Captain Pedo (Obito) killed them or simply there were not more children.


Itachi basically admitted he killed the clan, heck we have him offing his parents in front of Sasuke.
Whether you like it or not, there were children that got hacked and slashed by this quasi-hero named Itachi.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Except it wasn't; I spent literally the entire last two pages explaining that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh shit what did I read there? Child *or *Children. Guess I'll listen to VIZ and the other translators who state children because thats what they are paid to do. Fuck outta here again


----------



## Wendson (Aug 5, 2013)

1/10
Worst character of the series, and his fandom is so fucking annoying.


----------



## Bloo (Aug 5, 2013)

10/10

Easily the most conflicted and developed character in the manga. His struggles with the perfection that his clan and his village viewed him as attaining, along with the different conflicting views of these two parties, sums him up to be a very well-developed character in my book.


----------



## Jad (Aug 5, 2013)

Nothing personal Itachi Uchiha.

Damn - Itachi is going to bump Gai out of 10th position by the looks of it.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 6, 2013)

There's no "right" way to translate it, strictly speaking, because like Dany explained, it could mean child OR children.

*It's entirely up to the interpretation of the translator. 
*
Just think of the "lover" situation. Most translators had that translated as "girlfriend", even though the word used in Japanese clearly had no gender.



Anyway I think people are nitpicking at this point.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 6, 2013)

Best character, imo!!

10/10


----------



## Rios (Aug 6, 2013)

Even if he eats babies he will still have the same amount of fans because Kishimoto will somehow justify his actions by making the babies evil and  rebellious. There is no point fighting it.


----------



## Deleted member 206107 (Aug 6, 2013)

1/10 

constantly get pimped. he dead but his ass still mentionned. 

he ugly as fuck too with his bags .


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 6, 2013)

Itachi is a great character. Excellently developed and was a *very* relevant character to the plot. But unfortunately, I'm not going to give him a 10 because his fanbase has made my likeness for him drop drastically. However, I will always love this character. So he gets a 6/10.


----------



## Dr Black (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Makes no sense to me.
> 
> How other people choose to conduct themselves only determines how I feel about them. *My likes and dislikes are my own, and they aren't going to change simply because someone I don't like shares them.*
> 
> All I can figure is that people who think in such a way aren't really thinking at all. It sounds like Pavlovian conditioning, wherein exposure to a certain stimulus leads to an unpleasant experience and a subsequent association made between the two.



That's what I'm talking about. If you don't like or dislike them the fandom makes it unbearable. It's like if everyone is talking about a movie that just came out and you haven't seen it yet, but everyone's talking about how great it is. Then you go and see the movie and it's good but not as good as everyone has been saying. It wouldn't piss you off that everyone overrates this movie like hell?


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

A character can be compelling even if he eats babies, I don't see why Itachi's fans feel they have to deny what he did. Sasuke is the only uchiha kid? what next? Mikoto is the only uchiha woman?

It's not about "innocence" or being "a child", Sasuke is simply special to him. When Itachi said "Sasuke is still "uncolored" (or "pure"), Sasuke was neither a child nor innocent, he left Konoha for Orochimaru. Even when Sasuke told him in his face he'd destroy konoha, Itachi still thought it's not sasuke's fault, it's his own failure (which it is). Even if the massacre had happened when Sasuke was 16, he would've been spared.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> A character can be compelling even if he eats babies, I don't see why Itachi's fans feel they have to deny what he did. Sasuke is the only uchiha kid? what next? Mikoto is the only uchiha woman?
> 
> It's not about "innocence" or being "a child", Sasuke is simply special to him. When Itachi said "Sasuke is still "uncolored" (or "pure"), Sasuke was neither a child nor innocent, he left Konoha for Orochimaru. Even when Sasuke told him in his face he'd destroy konoha, Itachi still thought it's not sasuke's fault, it's his own failure (which it is). Even if the massacre had happened when Sasuke was 16, he would've been spared.



My opinion on him wouldn't change if there were no kids killed or if there were fifty, but people should stop acting like the Japanese word definitely meant plural when it clearly does not.

I think it's weird how some seem to be completely okay with all the murder and massacre in this series, but when it comes to Itachi potentially killing "innocent" kids, suddenly it's a problem. They were all going to end up being soldiers, anyway. 

Kids in this manga are not innocent. Ironically, once shinobi had a chance to live in peace after Konoha was founded, pretty much every kid we have ever seen in this manga, no matter what their age was, has aspired to be a ninja (is there even a civilian option? It's been implied but never explained or even remotely portrayed). 

In Narutoverse, you start daydreaming about killing people when you're four.


----------



## Addy (Aug 6, 2013)

Rios said:


> Even if he eats babies he will still have the same amount of fans because Kishimoto will somehow justify his actions by making the babies evil and  rebellious. There is no point fighting it.



no, he simply does it this way:

1- kills babies.
2- had no choice or world goes into war 

idk what scenario that requires you to kill babies and stop a war but that is how uchiha were treated. kill and prevent war.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> My opinion on him wouldn't change if there were no kids killed or if there were fifty, but people should stop acting like the Japanese word definitely meant plural when it clearly does not.
> 
> I think it's weird how some seem to be completely okay with all the murder and massacre in this series, but when it comes to Itachi potentially killing "innocent" kids, suddenly it's a problem. They were all going to end up being soldiers, anyway.
> 
> ...



I think it's pretty ridiculous to claim Sasuke was the only child in the clan...which is what Itachi's fans are doing. 

Most people are ok with mass murderers if they're villains like Danzo, if they're portrayed as hero, it's kinda annoying. daydreaming about killing people when your're 4? well not Itachi, we're supposed to believe he's a pacifist....


----------



## zuul (Aug 6, 2013)

Addy said:


> no, he simply does it this way:
> 
> 1- kills babies.
> 2- had no choice or world goes into war
> ...



Baby zombies maybe.


----------



## Jad (Aug 6, 2013)

Guys - all Itachi fans should be voting 1.

You know, Itachi is #1


----------



## Ernie (Aug 6, 2013)

Lol at people ignoring the fact Itachi murdered children, woman and elders.


----------



## Ersa (Aug 6, 2013)

By far Kishimoto's greatest triumph, whether you like the character or not it's a level of depth he has only come close to in a few other characters (Jiraiya, Kakashi, Part I Naruto). Not to mention he's badass and a quotable sob.

10/10.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2013)

Best character Kishimoto created without a doubt.
One of the best characters in the world of fiction.

Dat King 




Ernie said:


> Lol at people ignoring the fact Itachi murdered children, woman and elders.



Itachi didn't murder children. 

Danzo was an elder.

Mei is a woman.

What'd be wrong in killing them ?

Not that he had a choice.


----------



## Ernie (Aug 6, 2013)

Itachi did murder children. Lol, you really think Sasuke was the only young one in that clan? 

He even killed his own girlfriend, dat love!


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2013)

Ernie said:


> Itachi did murder children. Lol, you really think Sasuke was the only young one in that clan?
> [


as far as we know yeah he was.

I mean guys like Kakashi graduated from the academy @ the age of 6 and started going on missions.

Childkilling is not a crime in Narutoverse, unless the child is like an infant and in no position to defend himself.




> He even killed his own girlfriend, dat love!



Who says Itachi's girlfriend was a child ?


----------



## PostNoJutsu (Aug 6, 2013)

6/10 If only to fight against the reverse bell-curve.

NF logic:  
I like him any amount = 10
I dislike him any amount = 1


----------



## Divinstrosity (Aug 6, 2013)

If he killed those little crumb snatchers and old geezers, I'm sure they deserved it!


----------



## Ernie (Aug 6, 2013)

Dil, he killed innocent people. That is not cool. Yet the story wants to make like he is some kind of Mary Sue. 

If he killed everyone, he should have also killed Sasuke. But no, he acted selfish on that. 

"Hey, it's his little brother", yeah so, it were also "his parents and family members"...


Itachi is a very good ninja AND soldier. But the fact he killed innocent people can't be forgiven.  Minato should never do that!


----------



## -JT- (Aug 6, 2013)

Why are people so determined to see Itachi as flawless?
He said himself that he failed.
Plus, where is the enjoyment in a perfect character? Flaws make them relatable.


----------



## Ernie (Aug 6, 2013)

-JT- said:


> Why are people so determined to see Itachi as flawless?
> He said himself that he failed.
> Plus, where is the enjoyment in a perfect character? Flaws make them relatable.



Yes, but the story wants us to believe that he's a perfect character. I hate that. The wank about him is ridiculous and unbelievable. 

Where is the time Itachi was a cool character! (part 1)


----------



## Divinstrosity (Aug 6, 2013)

Why is everyone hung up on Itachi killing kids and old people?

Some of you can't differentiate between the Narutoverse and the world we live in. 

Old people and children are trained killers in the Narutoverse. 

Hell, when Naruto was 12 or 13, Kishimoto told him, 'In this world, there are shinobi stronger than me, and younger than you.' 

I'm pretty sure if Itachi felt they were no threat at all, he would've left them alive. You saw how far he was willing to go to protect Sasuke. 

Sasuke was kept in the dark about everything, and it's possible the other kids weren't. 

Either way, I'm sure there was a logical reason for them being killed, whether you agree with it or not. 

Not to mention, ONCE AGAIN, stop mixing our world and that one. 

If we saw someone walk on water in this world, they'd have 3 billion Twitter followers by midnight. 

In that world, that's nothing. 

I'm a little disturbed by the fact that it was even necessary to say ANY of this.


----------



## -JT- (Aug 6, 2013)

Ernie said:


> Yes, but the story wants us to believe that he's a perfect character. I hate that. The wank about him is ridiculous and unbelievable.
> 
> Where is the time Itachi was a cool character! (part 1)



I agree with you. 
Authors blatantly playing favourites... 



Divinstrosity said:


> Why is everyone hung up on Itachi killing kids and old people?
> 
> Some of you can't differentiate between the Narutoverse and the world we live in.
> 
> ...



And your argument if the children were in fact babies and toddlers?


----------



## Ernie (Aug 6, 2013)

Divinstrosity said:


> I'm pretty sure if Itachi felt they *were no threat at all,* he would've left them alive.
> .



Sasuke says Hy. 




-JT- said:


> I agree with you.
> Author's blatantly playing favourites...


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 6, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> There's no "right" way to translate it, strictly speaking, because like Dany explained, it could mean child OR children.
> 
> *It's entirely up to the interpretation of the translator.
> *
> ...


Yeah, here you see how people _trying_ to hate on Itachi. We are told the translation is ambiguous and still they hold on to the translation which means that Itachi did something bad, while the author has been doing his best to portray him as doing good. Since the first reason Itachi gave for sparing Sasuke was that he was an "_innocent child_" the proper translation has become clear enough as well. Not sure why people resist so much against it.

I mean, sure, call it bad or convenient writing, but that's how it is.​


----------



## -JT- (Aug 6, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Yeah, here you see how people _trying_ to hate on Itachi. We are told the translation is ambiguous and still they hold on to the translation which means that Itachi did something bad, while the author has been doing his best to portray him as doing good. Since the first reason Itachi gave for sparing Sasuke was that he was an "_innocent child_" the proper translation has become clear enough as well.
> 
> *I mean, sure, call it bad or convenient writing, but that's how it is.*​



Said writing is about Itachi, so therefore one must deduce that at least some aspects of his character are poorly written, no?


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Divinstrosity said:


> Why is everyone hung up on Itachi killing kids and old people?
> 
> Some of you can't differentiate between the Narutoverse and the world we live in.
> 
> ...



When Sasuke became a threat to Konoha, Itachi told him I'll love you no matter what you do 
it's never about being a threat,  get over it.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 6, 2013)

-JT- said:


> Said writing is about Itachi, so therefore one must deduce that at least some aspects of his character are poorly written, no?


Oh definitely. Sadly this story has become quite contrived as a whole. There conveniently being no innocent children other than Sasuke is nothing compared to other issues though.​


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 6, 2013)

Itachi

Character Design

6.5/10

nothing too special it just plays into his personality as the unassuming power house,

Personality

5/10

Typical Aloof Big Brother you see in most manga, I liked some of his dialogue in. The Sasuke fight but outside of that nothing too special as he just fits the perfect older brother archetype we've seen in many works of fiction


Jutsu Set

4/10

In my opinion out of all the major characters he's had the worst fights, Hebi Sasuke fight was ruined due to genjutsu, and Izanami was just more contrived bullshit by Kishi , genjutsu is just a hard fighting style to pull off and make exciting within the manga

Backstory

7.5/10

Up until the Hebi Sasuke fight this was a 10 for me, as when Itachi was introduced as a villain for killing his own family he immediately became the most interesting character ninth manga for me, but after his meeting with Naruto is was plain to see he was taking the character to the typical aloof/cold big brother arctype which kindof took away from his luster , his role within the war was also terribly done, I mean koto other than the Madara vs Hashirama flashbacks was one of the low points of the entire manga, but I still give him a 7.5 due to how intrical the Uchiha Massacre is to the central plot of the story and there's still more we don't know.


Overall 

5.5 pretty much avg character for me, I don't really hate him nor do I hate his fans as I think most are just joking around and are getting their fix, I mean if wanking Itachi makes their day then more power to them , and to be honest he's one of the few characters where a majority of his wank is justified to to his role in the story, but for me he's just the middle of the road typical aloof/cold big brother who is the Bishi unassuming powerhouse.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2013)

-JT- said:


> And your argument if the children were in fact babies and toddlers?



Your argument if your grandmother had dick and balls ?


----------



## Divinstrosity (Aug 6, 2013)

-JT- said:


> And your argument if the children were in fact babies and toddlers?



Unfortunate - like the entire situation - but done with reason. 

Once again, I'm not looking at this from the standpoint of someone who lives in the real world. 

Killing a baby and toddler in this world is obviously only somthing the lowest form of life on earth would do. 

In that world, those babies and toddlers will possibly grow up to take revenge on the village. 

Furthermore, if Itachi didn't kill them, they possibly would've been killed, anyway. 

Don't forget that Itachi had to threaten Danzou in order for Sasuke to go untouched.

The Uchiha had a target on their backs, and it was left to Itachi to handle the situation. 

If he didn't do it, they would have...

...and Sasuke, and all of those babies and toddlers you all are injecting into the story would've been killed too.


----------



## Mr Hayk (Aug 6, 2013)

My favorite character in Naruto, but still not perfect. 9/10.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

with the exception of Obito not kidnapping Naruto when he's a kid, the others simply make the characters less likable, or less sensible. They're not in the same category of the silliness as saying oh btw, it's so happened Sasuke was the only kid in a clan which was supposed to be so powerful they could cause a civil war. And it's something Itachi fans made up anyway, it's not stated in the manga he's the only kid. 

Jiraiya and Minato believe in Naruto will change the world is just something like Itachi said maybe Sasuke could have changed the uchihas.

Obito accepted Itachi's condition of not attacking Konoha makes little sense as the examples you listed too. Obito didn't need Itachi, he and Pein could just kamui to the Jins and kidnap them, Zetsu could infiltrate the village to gather intelligence of the exact whereabout of the jins for them. Why recruit some goody two shoes who's more likely to hinder your plan and even kill you than help you? and accept a condition that slowed the progress of your plan?


----------



## -JT- (Aug 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Your argument if your grandmother had dick and balls ?







Divinstrosity said:


> Unfortunate - like the entire situation - but done with reason.
> 
> Once again, I'm not looking at this from the standpoint of someone who lives in the real world.
> 
> ...



I understand what you're saying about this being a 'different world', but they're all still supposed to be humans like us. 
Additionally, Orochimaru kidnapping and experimenting on children is still seen as ghastly in the Narutoworld, so why should Itachi's murder of them be seen any differently? Because he's a 'good guy'?


----------



## Divinstrosity (Aug 6, 2013)

-JT- said:


> I understand what you're saying about this being a 'different world', but they're all still supposed to be humans like us.
> Additionally, Orochimaru kidnapping and experimenting on children is still seen as ghastly in the Narutoworld, so why should Itachi's murder of them be seen any differently? Because he's a 'good guy'?



...because the village and Itachi deemed it justifiable. 

Just sayin'. 

It depends on who you ask. 

Sasuke clearly doesn't deem it justifiable...

...the village does.


----------



## Ryan Ensign (Aug 6, 2013)

Solo king 11/10.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Plot holes related to a character is off topic in a character discussion thread? >.>


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> with the exception of Obito not kidnapping Naruto when he's a kid, the others simply make the characters less likable, or less sensible. They're not in the same category of the silliness as saying oh btw, it's so happened Sasuke was the only kid in a clan which was supposed to be so powerful they could cause a civil war. And it something Itachi fans made up anyway, it's not stated in the manga he's the only kid.
> 
> Obito accepted Itachi's condition of not attacking Konoha makes little sense as the examples you listed too. Obito didn't need Itachi, he and Pein could just kamui to the Jins and kidnap them, Zetsu could infiltrate the village to gather intelligence of the exact whereabout of the jins for them. Why recruit some goody two shoes who's more likely to hinder your plan and even kill you than help you? and accept a condition that slowed the progress of your plan?


I disagree with the first part. I think those other issues are plenty more absurd than Sasuke being the youngest of a clan at age 7 or 8, which is possible, though not likely. Besides, this isn't an issue significant to the story. It's heavily implied Sasuke was the only innocent kid, because that was the first reason given for Sasuke being spared. Also, Itachi being portrayed as a good guy for doing what he did should warrant him to be given the benefit of the doubt. Stating Itachi definitely killed kids would be something that was made up.

Yeah, Obito's reasons and actions make very little sense.

EDIT: Oh apparently we strayed too far off-topic or something.​


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> I disagree with the first part. I think those other issues are plenty more absurd than Sasuke being the youngest of a clan at age 7 or 8, which is possible, though not likely. Besides, this isn't an issue significant to the story. It's heavily implied Sasuke was the only innocent kid, because that was the first reason given for Sasuke being spared. Also, Itachi being portrayed as a good guy for doing what he did should warrant him to be given the benefit of the doubt. Stating Itachi definitely killed kids would be something that was made up.
> 
> Yeah, Obito's reasons and actions make very little sense.​



I've said this before. Sasuke was spared because he's Itachi's brother, Itachi thinks Sasuke's innocent no matter what he does. He said Sasuke was still "uncolored/ pure", which was not true, cos by that time, he's betrayed the leaf and went to Orochimaru. Even when Sasuke said he'd destroy the leaf, Itachi made no effort to stop him or repproach him, he instead told him it's ok, I will love you no matter what.

Kishi sacrificed a bit of Obtio's intelligence so that Itachi could play the role of double agent, but this is quite ok for me, making him an akatsuki keeps his connection to Konoha and the plot. but making sasuke the only kid in the entire clan adds nothing to the plot, it's just dumb


----------



## chibihana (Aug 6, 2013)

10/10

cause his my hubby


----------



## Danzio (Aug 6, 2013)

Genocide is genocide.

Itachi saved Sasuke because he loved  him more than both Konoha and his clan, not because Sasuke  was the only innocent. 

Seeing a blossoming relationship drown due to Itachi's death was unfortunate.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Aug 6, 2013)

10/10.

One of the most complex, well thought out and important characters in the series.


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Aug 6, 2013)

10/10
Itachi was a pretty interesting character.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> Sasuke was spared because he's Itachi's brother


That was also a reason to spare him, but not the first one given.

Honestly, the story is full of badly written parts, and Itachi's story is no different, but his story does lie at/near the heart of the entire manga. Considering its significance and magnitude, it is one of the best handled plots. If you compare Obito's story, which is also at the heart of the manga, it is just a massive mess of bad writing. His decisions/actions simply cannot be excused at all.​


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You are so bloody ignorant in this matter...
> 
> Translators choose to translate it as "children" arbitrarily; I don't know the reason they did so, but the wording is ambiguous in spite of that, so the interpretations of the translators don't actually mean dick.



Actually its completely the opposite. Every major paid translators including VIZ, who I trust more than most, stated children. Comparing your interpretations to a paid translators interpretations is like trying to compare your interpretation of law to a Harvard Law Graduate's interpretation. 

Eat a Snickers Niku. Your embarrassing yourself again


----------



## happiholic (Aug 6, 2013)

10/10

But, why are his nails so long in that picture? They look better than mine!


----------



## Default (Aug 6, 2013)

Itachi will have the higher amount of 10s, and 1s aswell

mfw itachi wont be in the top 3 because of bitch haters


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 6, 2013)

If you have Itachi in a thread title, the haters flood in from Itachi's haters fanclub.  

I really don't see anything wrong with Itachi's character apart from one of his reasoning. It makes sense when you look at it in manga point of view and not relating it to reality. This is where kid are sent to wars and kill other shinobi's.


----------



## Vice (Aug 6, 2013)

Default said:


> mfw itachi wont be in the top 3 because of bitch haters



Oh well. The world will keep on spinning.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> That was also a reason to spare him, but not the first one given.
> 
> Honestly, the story is full of badly written parts, and Itachi's story is no different, but his story does lie at/near the heart of the entire manga. Considering its significance and magnitude, it is one of the best handled plots. If you compare Obito's story, which is also at the heart of the manga, it is just a massive mess of bad writing. His decisions/actions simply cannot be excused at all.​



This is like Obito sayin it's not about Rin, his actions contradicted it. To Itachi, Sasuke is always innocent, not because it's true, just because he's his little brother. I don't want to repeat myself, but you seem to have ignored it in my previous post. I've already explained how he still considered Sasuke innocent despite the fact the he'd betrayed the leaf. 

Itachi thinks Sasuke will always be 5 or something. He's surprised Sasuke noticed the uchiha emblem at the police headquarter, he didn't think Sasuke should notice or concern himself with these grownup stuff. He made a scene when the 3 uchihas came to his house, he even argued with his own father and went on to rant about this pathetic clan, but when he realised Sasuke was watching, he immediately apologised so that Sasuke wouldn't be exposed to clan politics. 

When Itachi said Sasuke is innocent, it's just an older brother wishing his baby brother would never grow up. It doesn't mean there aren't other kids in the clan. There's no evidence sasuke was the only kid in the clan. I don't see why Itachi fans feel the need to deny this, it's not like killing elderly couple who sell rice crackers is a lot better than killing kids.

Obito is a mess, but his actions need not to be excused, he's a villain.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> This is like Obito sayin it's not about Rin, his actions contradicted it. To Itachi, Sasuke is always innocent, not because it's true, just because he's his little brother. I don't want to repeat myself, but you seem to have ignored it in my previous post. I've already explained how he still considered Sasuke innocent despite the fact the he'd betrayed the leaf.
> 
> Itachi thinks Sasuke will always be 5 or something. He's surprised Sasuke noticed the uchiha emblem at the police headquarter, he didn't think Sasuke should notice or concern himself with these grownup stuff. He made a scene when the 3 uchihas came to his house, he even argued with his own father and went on to rant about this pathetic clan, but when he realised Sasuke was watching, he immediately apologised so that Sasuke wouldn't be exposed to clan politics.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Itachi saw Sasuke as a little brother who(se "_innosence_") he needed to protect. He is biased towards his brother. Not entirely sure how this relates to the topic though.

There's no evidence that there were other kids either. The eldery couple most likely supported the coup.

Obito's actions need not be excused morally, but they should be excusable from a logical perspective. His story/actions just don't make sense or seem incredibly stupid at times. It's just bad writing.​


----------



## Vice (Aug 6, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> There's no evidence that there were other kids either.



Except the manga which said there were other kids.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 6, 2013)

Real world logic vs fairy tale logic

Is that better nesha


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Yeah, Itachi saw Sasuke as a little brother who(se "_innosence_") he needed to protect. He is biased towards his brother. Not entirely sure how this relates to the topic though.
> 
> There's no evidence that there were other kids either. The eldery couple most likely supported the coup.
> 
> Obito's actions need not be excused morally, but they should be excusable from a logical perspective. His story/actions just don't make sense or seem incredibly stupid at times. It's just bad writing.​



it's related to the topic because some people are arguing Sasuke was spared because he's the only innocent kid in the clan, which means either the other kids were not innocent or there were no other kid. What I'm trying to say is the statement by Itachi means nothing, cos he's Sasuke to him, kid or not, will always be innocent.

Mostly likely??? how do you know? What about his lover? she/he was mostly likely sympathetic to Itachi's views, I can't imagine him dating someone who held opposing views. Nonetheless he killed him/her. anyway it's not like killing people who hold different beliefs than you is commendable anyway.

A clan with only one kid? does it make any sense? and this is a clan which is supposed to be the most powerful in the village. If there's no evidence on either side, common sense will say a clan has more than one kid.

Are you using obito, the biggest mess, to make Itachi's plot holes look better? and this isn't even a plot hole, cos it's made up by itachi fans.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 6, 2013)

Vice said:


> Except the manga which said there were other kids.


You were already informed about the ambiguity of the translation within this thread. What is this? Guilty unless proven innocent?

Like I said, everyone talks about Itachi's actions being good in the manga and we know that the first reason for sparing Sasuke was his innocense. That leaves little room for the translation most translators interpreted as most likely being correct at the time. . 

Not sure why you still pretend it's definitely plural despite translators saying it's ambiguous.​



eurytus said:


> it's related to the topic because some people are arguing Sasuke was spared because he's the only innocent kid in the clan, which means either the other kids were not innocent or there were no other kid. What I'm trying to say is the statement by Itachi means nothing, cos he's Sasuke to him, kid or not, will always be innocent.
> 
> Mostly likely??? how do you know? What about his lover? she/he was mostly likely sympathetic to Itachi's views, I can't imagine him dating someone who held opposing views. Nonetheless he killed him/her. anyway it's not like killing people who hold different beliefs than you is commendable anyway.
> 
> ...


Sasuke being Sasuke to Itachi doesn't mean his statement isn't reliable. He didn't have to give the "_innocent child_" reason in the first place if it wasn't true. He could've just kept to letting Sasuke live to kill him. So to write off that statement as meaning nothing isn't right.

Who says Itachi's lover was from the Uchiha clan? For all we know Itachi lied to him/her the same way he lied to his beloved brother. Maybe he simply abondened him/her. Not sure why all the assumptions are made _against_ Itachi.

Common sense says what is most likely. I gave the two reasons before. Also, the clan being strong doesn't mean it is big, i.e. quantity vs quality. It is a little strange for Sasuke to be the youngest, but not impossible in the slightest. It is, however, hard to believe that Kishimoto would write Itachi killing innocent children as an admirable act.

I used Obito's story as a foil so that there would be no discussion. It merely helped illustrate my reasoning more clearly.​


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

When they say Itachi knew the origins of the ninja, secrets, and knowledge from past ancestors and showed great interest in them at the age of 7. You know this guy will kill most jounin at that age... But due to racism he could never be Hokage and instead had to do the dirty work.

Everyone else on the tier list had support to develop their skills, Itachi had none. He also had debilitating disease before he can even hit his prime and died at 21.. Minato died in his early 30s with support and his love one, Kakashi is in his 30s and still alive and arguably he will rape both. Imagine if he was given the same oppurtunities as everyone else.. it's no contest he will have been the greatest Hokage that ever lived and the youngest probably at age 14.


----------



## Vice (Aug 6, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> You were already informed about the ambiguity of the translation within this thread. What is this? Guilty unless proven innocent?​




No, you guys desperately cling to this claim to ambiguity as if it has any meaning despite every translation, including the official Viz one, directly referencing more than one child. 



> Like I said, everyone talks about Itachi's actions being good in the manga



Of course, they white-wash his actions and hold him accountable for nothing. That's why people who don't like him justifiably treats him as a mary sue.



> and we know that the first reason for sparing Sasuke was his innocense.



His reasoning was that he loved Sasuke more than the village. 



> That leaves little room for the translation most translators interpreted as most likely being correct at the time. .



How does "it could go either way" means it was definitely singular? Are you guys incapable of reading anything other than what you want to read?



> Not sure why you still pretend it's definitely plural despite translators saying it's ambiguous.



Because logic and common sense would dictate that a clan full of hundreds, if not thousands of people aren't going to stop having children for eight years no matter how desperately you want to cling to that possibility being feasible. 

We also have no reason for Danzo to not just flat-out name Sasuke as the innocent child if he's the only one in the entirety of the clan.


----------



## Sage (Aug 6, 2013)

Nagato obliterated an entire village, I don't recall seeing a dead child on panel in the aftermath (I did see one before the implosion though) but that doesn't mean I believe he spared them just because I didn't see it, same applies for Itachi. It leaves a bad impression on the character, Kishi does a terrible job at reconciling the wrong deeds of all his characters, he could have a character rape someone then give the victim a bowl of ice cream and tell us its all good, the perpetrator is a good guy now... it is what it is  

I don't remember anyone referring or labeling Sasuke as the 'youngest Uchiha' during pre-massacre, so there is no reason to believe he was. People awed at him for being talented at such a young age, but nobody pointed him out as being the only remaining child of the Uchiha during that time. Sasuke being the 'prince' of the Uchiha also most likely added to his celebrity status back then and was focused on while the other Uchiha kids weren't mentioned. 

Danzo was speaking about eradicating the Uchiha (plural) and not of one single Uchiha during the meeting, when he mentioned 'children' we are to assume he was still in the same line of thought as them being plural even if the word is ambiguous in that language. It wasn't until later on Danzo and Itachi had their private meeting did Danzo single out Sasuke and spoke of him in singular.

Not all Uchiha children were prodigies, Obito was proof of that. None of the other Uchiha were skilled as Sasuke at that age so they didn't stand out, they were fodder just like every other kid blending in, Kishi had no reason to show them or bring them up. The Uchiha population had to have been a fair amount, it was by no means small. In charge of the police division monitoring a village the size of Konoha requires a lot of man power, its not a small family owned business. The Uchiha was a community big enough to have their own district in the village, so more than likely there were other kids. Plus I saw maybe 2-3 female Uchiha's while I have seen dozens of men, there is no way I am to believe that was the only remaining females of that clan either.

Now that I think about it, I have not seen or heard anyone mention younger kids of the Nara, Akimichi, Yamanaka, Inuzuka, and Aburame clan, so I am to assume the Konoha 11 members are the youngest of their clans too simply because Kishi didn't bother to point out the younger generation?

fodders are people too, just because you don't see them and the author doesn't care to mention them doesn't mean they don't exist


----------



## Edward Nygma (Aug 6, 2013)

9/10

He is by far my favorite character, but he is not without flaws.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 6, 2013)

Vice said:


> No, you guys desperately cling to this claim to ambiguity as if it has any meaning despite every translation, including the official Viz one, directly referencing more than one child.


The translation is good, but it could be translated differently. Not ignoring such facts is a bad thing now? We should all blindly follow the interpretation of others? That's what you are arguing here.​ 


Vice said:


> His reasoning was that he loved Sasuke more than the village.


So you'll ignore the reason that was given in the manga?



Vice said:


> How does "it could go either way" means it was definitely singular? Are you guys incapable of reading anything other than what you want to read?


Did I say it was definitely singular? The second sentence ironically applies to you rather than me with that remark.



Vice said:


> Because logic and common sense would dictate that a clan full of hundreds, if not thousands of people aren't going to stop having children for eight years no matter how desperately you want to cling to that possibility being feasible.


I was unaware of the clans size. Do you have a link to this indication? 



Vice said:


> We also have no reason for Danzo to not just flat-out name Sasuke as the innocent child if he's the only one in the entirety of the clan.


Threatening someone indirectly actually happens a lot in stories.


----------



## narutoish (Aug 6, 2013)

Vice said:


> His reasoning was that he loved Sasuke more than the village.



Actually that is what obito told him, itachi said that he didn't kill Sasuke because he was too young and didn't know about the coup.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Sasuke being Sasuke to Itachi doesn't mean his statement isn't reliable. He didn't have to give the "_innocent child_" reason in the first place if it wasn't true. He could've just kept to letting Sasuke live to kill him. So to write off that statement as meaning nothing isn't right.​




sasuke specifically asked why him alone was spared, but not his parents. Itachi said Sasuke was innocent, it meant his parents were not innocent cos they're adults, they had stupid views about the clan. It has nothing to do with whether there were other kids in the clan. He's only talking about his own family. 

*He could've just kept to letting Sasuke live to kill him.* 

It doesn't answer sasuke's question, he could've let another uchiha kill him too. Why not kill Sasuke and let Fugaku live and kill him? he'd be "released" that night, no need to wait 8 years for Sasuke to get strong enough to kill him.




> Who says Itachi's lover was from the Uchiha clan? For all we know Itachi lied to him/her the same way he lied to his beloved brother. Maybe he simply abondened him/her. Not sure why all the assumptions are made _against_ Itachi.



Obito said he killed his lover that night too, so she/he must have been a uchiha, if not, it'd mean Itachi went completely pyscho and killed other clans too



> Common sense says what is most likely. I gave the two reasons before. Also, the clan being strong doesn't mean it is big, i.e. quantity vs quality. It is a little strange for Sasuke to be the youngest, but not impossible in the slightest. It is, however, hard to believe that Kishimoto would write Itachi killing innocent children as an admirable act.



nope, common sense says a clan has more than 1 kid. I don't care if Sasuke was the youngest which isn't important. To say uchiha had no other kid means no babies had been born for the last 12 years, that's absurd. Kishi didn't write killing innocent children as an admirable act, Itachi was blackmailed by Danzo, if Kishi considered what Itachi did was nothing disgraceful, he wouldn't have made Danzo blackmail him. Kishi felt the need to make excuse for Itachi, because it's a bloody massacre that included women and children.​


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

Dr Black said:


> That's what I'm talking about. If you don't like or dislike them the fandom makes it unbearable. It's like if everyone is talking about a movie that just came out and you haven't seen it yet, but everyone's talking about how great it is. Then you go and see the movie and it's good but not as good as everyone has been saying. It wouldn't piss you off that everyone overrates this movie like hell?



Yeah. I would be mad at the people who overrated it (not really "mad";I would disagree with them and maybe make fun of them for being dumb); I would feel about the movie however the movie made me feel. The two have nothing to do with each other. 



Cordelia said:


> How a fandom annoys you >>> your own standards, apparently.
> 
> It's sad and silly, but that's just how it is.



This thread is giving me cancer.



Ernie said:


> Lol at people ignoring the fact Itachi murdered children, woman and elders.



Lol at people continuing to assert this after evidence has been asked for and no evidence has been provided.

Get out.



Ernie said:


> Itachi did murder children. Lol, you really think Sasuke was the only young one in that clan?



Yes, I do. Based on the fact that he was spared for being uninvolved in the coup, and the fact that he was the only survivor, the only conclusion that is consistent is that Sasuke was the only child, which is not impossible or even unlikely.



> He even killed his own girlfriend, dat love!



If she was even Itachi's age, she could have been involved in the coup just like he was.



Dil said:


> He did kill children and women, there's no way in hell there could have only been one Uchiha child in the spam of 8 years, why the hell would they stop reproducing and only make Sasuke? Doesn't make sense.



No, that entire argument doesn't make sense. Families stop producing children after a while (insert racist joke about your demographic of choice here: ___); there are periods between generations during which they aren't productive. That's normal.



> Also all of this nitpicking on the translation is stupid, we might aswell nitpick every single damn word in the manga from chapter 1 and see what is right and what is wrong.



It's not even nitpicking; it's idiots who only understand the English language who think the wording is exactly the same with no difference in nuance between it and the original language. I wouldn't be surprised if every single one of them were fundamentalist Christians.



Ernie said:


> Dil, he killed innocent people. That is not cool. Yet the story wants to make like he is some kind of Mary Sue.
> 
> If he killed everyone, he should have also killed Sasuke. But no, he acted selfish on that.
> 
> "Hey, it's his little brother", yeah so, it were also "his parents and family members"...



Itachi explained why he spared Sasuke and not their parents:

As we can see here Orochimaru is gaining his chakra back from Kabuto, thus meaning he can use Sage mode.

As we can see here Orochimaru is gaining his chakra back from Kabuto, thus meaning he can use Sage mode.

As we can see here Orochimaru is gaining his chakra back from Kabuto, thus meaning he can use Sage mode.



Danzio said:


> Genocide is genocide.
> 
> Itachi saved Sasuke because he loved  him more than both Konoha and his clan, not because Sasuke  was the only innocent.



As we can see here Orochimaru is gaining his chakra back from Kabuto, thus meaning he can use Sage mode.



Elite Uchiha said:


> Actually its completely the opposite. Every major paid translators including VIZ, who I trust more than most, stated children. Comparing your interpretations to a paid translators interpretations is like trying to compare your interpretation of law to a Harvard Law Graduate's interpretation.



I just linked you to a thread where a couple of well-known, highly-reputable translators agreed that the wording was ambiguous despite a difference in their personal interpretations. Just because the English translation doesn't have the same nuance to it doesn't mean it isn't there. This isn't a matter of translation, which you would know if your entire universe was not built on assumptions of the English language.



> Eat a Snickers Niku. Your embarrassing yourself again



*You're.

You barely speak your own language; you aren't qualified to argue about another, so take your own advice.



Vice said:


> Oh well. The world will keep on spinning.



Yeah, and the obstinance of the human race is unfortunately one of the few constants. You can throw evidence in peoples' faces and point out to them, word-for-word, why their argument is shitty...and it simply won't register with them if they don't want it to; they will block it out, like a repressed memory, and continue spouting the same ignorant nonsense that you already showed to be misinformed.

It's like watching a car crash and knowing you have the power to stop it, but the driver just won't listen because he's too prideful to admit he's in the wrong. There's no evidence Itachi killed any innocent children, yet so many people have said this and will continue to say it in spite of every effort I've made to prove them wrong.



Vice said:


> Except the manga which said there were other kids.



Except it doesn't.



Vice said:


> No, you guys desperately cling to this claim to ambiguity as if it has any meaning despite every translation, including the official Viz one, directly referencing more than one child.



That's only the English translation.

I'm dangerously tempted to make a personal attack on your intelligence in the wake of every hoop I've jumped through to try to convince you rationally, but I think my point is sufficiently made without it. Your entire argument is based around an arbitrary translation of ambiguous wording; this is not a claim, it is a FACT which has been pointed out to you. Don't believe it? Here's the raw:



Here's the text:

何も知らぬ子供も含めてな
Nani mo shiranu kodomo mo fukumete na.

If you're so skeptical, find a translation site on Google or something and look up "子供" (kodomo, hiragana こども). Or go to a translator, any translator, and ask them what it means.

Then come back here and apologize for libeling Itachi.

I can do little more than this; I suppose I could go out and get translators to come here and tell you you're wrong, but I've pretty much already done that.

I don't know... You can acknowledge that all this just happened or you can deny it, like people who deny the Holocaust happened. if that's too complicated and you need me to put it in simpler terms for you to understand, it boils down to "*you are wrong*."



> Of course, they white-wash his actions and hold him accountable for nothing. That's why people who don't like him justifiably treats him as a mary sue.



Nobody whitewashes anything; none of you guys have any evidence that Itachi committed the crime you accuse him of. Your entire argument is based around semantics in a language the manga/author doesn't actually speak.



> His reasoning was that he loved Sasuke more than the village.



You're wrong again. Here:

As we can see here Orochimaru is gaining his chakra back from Kabuto, thus meaning he can use Sage mode.

I can only lead the horse to water...and hold its head under until it either drinks or drowns. I'm the one who holds your fate, but you are the one who will decide it.



> How does "it could go either way" means it was definitely singular? Are you guys incapable of reading anything other than what you want to read?



Nobody said it was "definitely singular"; the smart people in this thread keep pointing out to you that it's ambiguous. Do you know what the word "ambiguous" means, or do I need to explain that as well?



> Because logic and common sense would dictate that a clan full of hundreds, if not thousands of people aren't going to stop having children for eight years no matter how desperately you want to cling to that possibility being feasible.



Except there is no evidence of the Uchiha clan numbering in the hundreds, let alone the thousands. Itachi said they had dwindled in number and we scarcely saw around a dozen of them at the time of the massacre.

There is no indication how big the clan was, but we know its population had shrunk considerably and a "clan" is really just extended family anyway. As I've testified personally (several times, in this thread alone), my own "clan" has not produced a child in the last 15 years. Out of a pool of like 30-40 people, which is about how big I personally think the Uchiha clan was at the time of the massacre- if that.



> We also have no reason for Danzo to not just flat-out name Sasuke as the innocent child if he's the only one in the entirety of the clan.



Again, you're basing your judgment on semantics in the English language, which isn't the one originally spoken. Danzou used the word "子供" to refer to the subject of his proposal; no particular person or quantity of persons is implied. I have personally inferred that he was referring to Sasuke based on Itachi's given reasoning for sparing Sasuke's life and the assumptions that 1) he wasn't lying about it and 2) they didn't only apply to Sasuke.


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> sasuke specifically asked why him alone was spared, but not his parents. Itachi said Sasuke was innocent, it meant his parents were not innocent cos they're adults, they had stupid views about the clan. It has nothing to do with whether there were other kids in the clan. He's only talking about his own family.
> 
> *He could've just kept to letting Sasuke live to kill him.*
> 
> It doesn't answer sasuke's question, he could've let another uchiha kill him too. Why not kill Sasuke and let Fugaku live and kill him? he'd be "released" that night, no need to wait 8 years for Sasuke to get strong enough to kill him.


Yeah, their parents weren't innocent and Sasuke was.. he "_was just a kid_" (quote Itachi chapter 576). Therefore he was spared because he was an innocent kid.

Fugaku was the man behind the coup. Letting him live and be killed by him would mean he failed the mission. It only makes sense if he is punished by an innocent, unknowing Uchiha, i.e. Sasuke.​


eurytus said:


> Obito said he killed his lover that night too, so she/he must have been a uchiha, if not, it'd mean Itachi went completely pyscho and killed other clans too


Ah, you're right. Most likely his lover was an Uchiha. I guess Itachi loved her despite the disagreement. Love isn't rational.​


eurytus said:


> nope, common sense says a clan has more than 1 kid. I don't care if Sasuke was the youngest which isn't important. To say uchiha had no other kid means no babies had been born for the last 12 years, that's absurd. Kishi didn't write killing innocent children as an admirable act, Itachi was blackmailed by Danzo, if Kishi considered what Itachi did was nothing disgraceful, he wouldn't have made Danzo blackmail him. Kishi felt the need to make excuse for Itachi, because it's a bloody massacre that included women and children.


No births for 8 years isn't that weird depending on the size of the clan, which we/I don't know.​


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

There were like 100 sharingans at Obito's lab, that's 50 sharingan users who died at the massacre. Sharingans are supposed to be rare among uchiha, let's say 1 in 10 have sharingans (I'm being generous), that's 500 people. and only one kid??

no where in the manga says there're no other kids, what kinda fantasy is that? It's a massacre, it's killing indiscriminately, of course it included women and children, probably pregnant women too.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> There were like 100 sharingans at Obito's lab, *that's 50 sharingan users who died at the massacre.*


That's a rather large assumption. There is no mention from where all of those eyes came.


----------



## αce (Aug 6, 2013)

It's not unbelievable that Sasuke was the youngest one in the clan. It's fairly obvious that there were people around Itachi's age that were already shinobi (like Shisui and his "lover") but I have yet to see any reason to believe that Sasuke wasn't the youngest. It's not as if the clan would go extinct if they simply had teenagers and young adults. Itachi was 13 and was already a child himself. Some of you are acting as if this is a 50 year old walking around shanking 3 year olds. Any assumptions that the clan had younger people than Sasuke is just that - an assumption. There's no evidence of it especially since Danzou's statement is regarded as ambiguous by most of the translators on this forum. 

The manga also implied that Sasuke was the first Uchiha in the academy since Itachi so unless some of these kids sat on their asses and did nothing (unlikely for Uchiha) there couldn't have been anyone between the ages of 6-13 (Sasuke and Itachi's ages). 



The only possible children that Itachi slaughtered must have been younger than Sasuke but there's still no evidence that those children existed. Again, someone elaborate on why Sasuke being the youngest person in the clan is so unbelievable. Sure, there were other kids. But the only confirmed ones are the people around Itachi's age, which was 11-13.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Yeah, their parents weren't innocent and Sasuke was.. he "_was just a kid_" (quote Itachi chapter 576). Therefore he was spared because he was an innocent kid.​




well, yes, compared with his parents. But other people didn't even feature in Itachi's mind cos they weren't even his family.



> Fugaku was the man behind the coup. Letting him live and be killed by him would mean he failed the mission. It only makes sense if he is punished by an innocent, unknowing Uchiha, i.e. Sasuke.



i think it's just equally poetic to have the leader of the clan to kill him, no? after all, he said it's the right judgment for what he did to his *clan*



> Ah, you're right. Most likely his lover was an Uchiha. I guess Itachi loved her despite the disagreement. Love isn't rational.



you guess? you're just assuming they had different views. Seeing how his best friend had similar views to him, it's way more likely his lover shared the same views too.




> No births for 8 years isn't that weird depending on the size of the clan, which we/I don't know.



oh really? have you been collecting birth data of clans or what? how do you judge what's weird? no 12 years, before you graduate from shinobi academy, you're a kid. no where in the manga said Sasuke was the youngest.​


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> There were like 100 sharingans at Obito's lab, that's 50 sharingan users who died at the massacre. Sharingans are supposed to be rare among uchiha, let's say 1 in 10 have sharingans (I'm being generous), that's 500 people. and only one kid??
> 
> no where in the manga says there're no other kids, what kinda fantasy is that? It's a massacre, it's killing indiscriminately, of course it included women and children, probably pregnant women too.



What the hell? This is Naruto, not Game of Thrones. 

And we have no idea where all those Sharingan came from; some were probably harvested after the massacre, I'll grant you, but the Uchiha clan has been around for a long damn time and so has the Sharingan. Obito had access to all of Madara's resources and Madara has also been around for a long damn time.

Even the Sharingan in Danzou's arm, according to the man himself, were suggested to have come from somewhere/sometime other than the Uchiha massacre Sasuke knew.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> That's a rather large assumption. There is no mention from where all of those eyes came.



where else but the uchiha clan? that's like sayin Danzo could've collected his sharingans from somewhere else.


----------



## αce (Aug 6, 2013)

tl;dr

- no evidence of there being anyone younger than sasuke in the clan
-there were no uchiha born between itachi and sasuke's birthdates and thus the only possible children must have been younger than sasuke
-again, no evidence of those kids 
-people on this forum don't know what the burden of proof is and are just making assumptions to bash itachi


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> There were like 100 sharingans at Obito's lab, that's 50 sharingan users who died at the massacre. Sharingans are supposed to be rare among uchiha, let's say 1 in 10 have sharingans (I'm being generous), that's 500 people. and only one kid??
> 
> no where in the manga says there're no other kids, what kinda fantasy is that? It's a massacre, it's killing indiscriminately, of course it included women and children, probably pregnant women too.


Who says Obito started collecting Sharingan at the time of the massacre and not during the war? Heck, who says Madara didn't start the collection? He somehow obtained a new Sharingan, why not more? After all, Obito inherited lots of stuff/weapons from Madara.​


eurytus said:


> well, yes, compared with his parents. But *other people didn't even feature in Itachi's mind cos they weren't even his family.*


What? Where does this baseless assumption come from? =/



eurytus said:


> i think it's just equally poetic to have the leader of the clan to kill him, no? after all, he said it's the right judgment for what he did to his *clan*


It makes no sense to purposely get killed by the leader of the coup. That's just an outright mission failure. The entire idea was to keep the operation under wraps. What happens the next morning?​


eurytus said:


> you guess? you're just assuming they had different views. Seeing how his best friend had similar views to him, it's way more likely his lover shared the same views too.


Then I would imagine that Itachi would ask her to help as well and run away with him. Since that didn't happen and she was killed, she was likely opposed.​


eurytus said:


> oh really? have you been collecting birth data of clans or what? how do you judge what's weird? no 12 years, before you graduate from shinobi academy, you're a kid. no where in the manga said Sasuke was the youngest.


A clan doesn't have to be big. Just 20 people could be a clan. No surprise if there is no-one younger than 8 among such a small clan. We don't know how big the Uchiha clan was though.

Kids can easily be innocent no more before they reach 12 in Naruverse.​


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I just linked you to a thread where a couple of well-known, highly-reputable translators agreed that the wording was ambiguous despite a difference in their personal interpretations. Just because the English translation doesn't have the same nuance to it doesn't mean it isn't there. This isn't a matter of translation, which you would know if your entire universe was not built on assumptions of the English language.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry,but I did ask all the translators who are paid to do what they do. They all stated it was children, including the VIZ translation which is the official. 

Official > you.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Even the Sharingan in Danzou's arm, according to the man himself, were suggested to have come from somewhere/sometime other than the Uchiha massacre Sasuke knew.



according to the man himself, Itachi allowed him to collect....>.>

isn't it a nice coincidence that both Danzo and Obito who had a collection of sharingans happen to be involved in the massacre?


----------



## Addy (Aug 6, 2013)

you know? i am happy that oro didn't wank to itachi after he was revived. god knows what the poll would have been if we heard "he was kidnapped by kumo at 4. two days later, we saw him standing alone in the battlefield with the 3rd raikage dead...... and everyone else........ with a bloody kunai in itachi's hands " 


itachi's wank is so aweosme 

juse like hashirama's new powers pretty much shitting on naruto and sasuke :rofl


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Who says Obito started collecting Sharingan at the time of the massacre and not during the war? Heck, who says Madara didn't start the collection? He somehow obtained a new Sharingan, why not more? After all, Obito inherited lots of stuff/weapons from Madara.​



who said he did? I'm theorizing, sue me. So are your theories about Sasuke is the only kid in the clan, which has even less supporting evidence.


----------



## Addy (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> according to the man himself, Itachi allowed him to collect....>.>
> 
> isn't it a nice coincidence that both Danzo and Obito who had a collection of sharingans happen to be involved in the massacre?



you know, i really want to know how obito, danzo and itachi's relationship worked 

danzu had 10 sharingans and it seems that itachi knew about that and danzu using izanagi. tobi had akatsuki behind him too. i want to know what secret porn video itachi had of these two


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

αce said:


> tl;dr
> 
> - no evidence of there being anyone younger than sasuke in the clan
> -there were no uchiha born between itachi and sasuke's birthdates and thus the only possible children must have been younger than sasuke
> ...



Is there any evidence sasuke was the only kid?
Challenging evidence less assumption is bashing?
Only 7 or 8 fodders are shown in the massacre, I suppose there're only like 8 people in the clan uh?


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

αce said:


> tl;dr
> 
> - no evidence of there being anyone younger than sasuke in the clan
> -there were no uchiha born between itachi and sasuke's birthdates and thus the only possible children must have been younger than sasuke
> ...



Pretty much a perfect summary.



Elite Uchiha said:


> Sorry,but I did ask all the translators who are paid to do what they do. They all stated it was children, including the VIZ translation which is the official.



Your entire argument is based on semantics in the wrong language.



> Official > you.



The official wording is ambiguous, and that's what I support, so...



eurytus said:


> according to the man himself, Itachi allowed him to collect....>.>



That was only in the anime.



> isn't it a nice coincidence that both Danzo and Obito who had a collection of sharingans happen to be involved in the massacre?



There is no proven connection between that and the Sharingan seen in the room you pointed out earlier.


----------



## αce (Aug 6, 2013)

Although this is stupid anyways. You don't think Itachi knew that Uchiha were susceptible to being mentally raped at the loss of loved ones? What do you think would happen if children younger than Sasuke lost everyone in a single night without an explanation? This is amplified* 1000 *fold with mere children. If he didn't kill these supposed kids, you'd just end up with *100 more Obito's* and deranged Sasuke's that turn into the Madara's that Tobirama feared would arise after he founded the village. You think Hiruzen and the elders wanted any part of that shit? No. Neither did Itachi.

And if that happened, you'd all be criticizing Itachi for *not* killing those children. Either way, he get's blamed. Itachi is basically the _"Thanks Obama"_ of the manga. There's no win.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Addy said:


> you know, i really want to know how obito, danzo and itachi's relationship worked
> 
> danzu had 10 sharingans and it seems that itachi knew about that and danzu using izanagi. tobi had akatsuki behind him too. i want to know what secret porn video itachi had of these two



I think Danzo really hated Obito for collecting more Sharingans than him, after all Danzo was really the mastermind, and Obito just joined the party for the lulz, yet went home with the most sharingans. 

Itachi must've known about Danzo collected some sharingans, he also knew he stole shisui's eye. Yet when Sasuke told him he saw izanagi when he fought Danzo, Itachi's all nonchalant and casual, "I'm impressed you're alive" LOL


----------



## Sniffers (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> who said he did? I'm theorizing, sue me. So are your theories about Sasuke is the only kid in the clan, which has even less supporting evidence.


Oh, you can theorise, just be careful not to theorise something bad about a character and then hold it against him/her.​


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

αce said:


> If he didn't kill these supposed kids, you'd just end up with *100 more Obito's* and deranged Sasuke's that turn into the Madara's that Tobirama feared would arise after he founded the village. ... And if that happened, you'd all be criticizing Itachi for *not* killing those children.



The sad, unseen truth-that-never-was.

It'd be the exact same people doing it, too.



> Either way, he get's blamed. Itachi is basically the _"Thanks Obama"_ of the manga. There's no win.





Pretty much.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

αce said:


> Although this is stupid anyways. You don't think Itachi knew that Uchiha were susceptible to being mentally raped at the loss of loved ones? What do you think would happen if children younger than Sasuke lost everyone in a single night without an explanation? This is amplified* 1000 *fold with mere children. If he didn't kill these supposed kids, you'd just end up with *100 more Obito's* and deranged Sasuke's that turn into the Madara's that Tobirama feared would arise after he founded the village. You think Hiruzen and the elders wanted any part of that shit? No. Neither did Itachi.
> 
> And if that happened, you'd all be criticizing Itachi for *not* killing those children. Either way, he get's blamed. Itachi is basically the _"Thanks Obama"_ of the manga. There's no win.




are you guys serious? are you saying Itachi was sooo right to kill the kids cos they're emo uchihas anyway, and they would've turned into an army of Obito, so better kill them now. I see, Itachi is the biggest fan of Tobirama's policies backed by psedo scientific psychology analysis 



Sniffers said:


> Oh, you can theorise, just be careful not to theorise something bad about a character and then hold it against him/her.​



why? is it against forum rules?


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 6, 2013)

αce said:


> tl;dr
> 
> - no evidence of there being anyone younger than sasuke in the clan



No evidence of anyone younger than Konohamaru and his teammates pre skip. Seems legit 



> -there were no uchiha born between itachi and sasuke's birthdates and thus the only possible children must have been younger than sasuke



Can you please provide a manga scan of this? Considering I doubt the Uchiha's stopped banging for eight years. 



> -again, no evidence of those kids



Manga states children from every reputable translator who gets paid to do what they do. Evidence is on you.



> -people on this forum don't know what the burden of proof is and are just making assumptions to bash itachi



Burden of proof? No the burden of proof seems to fall on anyone who doesn't believe what you say



Nikushimi said:


> The official wording is ambiguous, and that's what I support, so...



The official VIZ are the best translators that VIZ Media can find. Their opinion far exceeds that if someone of your caliber.


----------



## Addy (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> I think Danzo really hated Obito for collecting more Sharingans than him, after all Danzo was really the mastermind, and Obito just joined the party for the lulz, yet went home with the most sharingans.
> 
> Itachi must've known about Danzo collected some sharingans, he also knew he stole shisui's eye. Yet when Sasuke told him he saw izanagi when he fought Danzo, *Itachi's all nonchalant and casual, "I'm impressed you're alive" LOL*



this whole "so what? " attitude kishi has been doing with characters is getting on my nerves 

minato is naruto's dad? no shits given.

minato came back from the dead? naruto doesn't give a shit cause he knew about it.

hiruzen tells everyone that oro is back = no one gives a shit.

the only real reaction is madara's rape face


----------



## Danzio (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> this page



Are you disputing the fact that Itachi loved Sasuke more than his precious village? More than his clan? That he did  what he did because Danzo, boldy, threatened him re: Sasuke's safety. 

Where does it say on that panel that Sasuke was the only innocent one?


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

Danzio said:


> Are you disputing the fact that Itachi loved Sasuke more than his precious village? More than his clan? That he did  what he did because Danzo, boldy, threatened him re: Sasuke's safety.
> 
> Where does it say on that panel that Sasuke was the only innocent one?



Sasuke: Why only me?!

Itachi: You were just a kid. You had nothing to do with the coup.


It's literally right there on the page.


----------



## Danzio (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke: Why only me?!
> 
> Itachi: You were just a kid. You had nothing to do with the coup.
> 
> ...




Sasuke is talking about his family, specifically.

I will ask again:

"Are you disputing the fact that Itachi loved Sasuke more than his precious village? More than his clan? That he did what he did because Danzo, boldy, threatened him re: Sasuke's safety. "


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

Danzio said:


> Sasuke is talking about his family, specifically.



The Uchiha clan is Sasuke's family. 

What do you think "clan" means? Why do you think they all have the same surname?



Danzio said:


> I will ask again:
> 
> "Are you disputing the fact that Itachi loved Sasuke more than his precious village? More than his clan? That he did what he did because Danzo, boldy, threatened him re: Sasuke's safety. "



I don't dispute any of that.

But that doesn't change anything.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Addy said:


> this whole "so what? " attitude kishi has been doing with characters is getting on my nerves
> 
> minato is naruto's dad? no shits given.
> 
> ...



yea...instead of giving fodders panel time, he should've done character interaction properly. well at least Sasuke reacted to Edo Itachi flying in the woods and Kakashi reacted to Obtio's mask coming off, after that, everyone has adopted this "no fuck given" attitude.
Madara hasn't reacted to anything after the rape face LOL


----------



## Danzio (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The Uchiha clan is Sasuke's family.
> 
> What do you think "clan" means? Why do you think they all have the same surname?



His _household_ hence mentioning his parents. Nowhere does it state Sasuke was the only innocent one.



Nikushimi said:


> I don't dispute any of that.
> 
> But that doesn't change anything.



K.

What's the problem then.


----------



## KnightGhost (Aug 6, 2013)

Danzio said:


> His _household_ hence mentioning his parents. Nowhere does it state Sasuke was the only innocent one.



It doesn't have to if they aren't shown you can't go saying there more.

thats like me saying there are more uzumaki kids with blonde hair out there.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

Danzio said:


> His _household_ hence mentioning his parents. Nowhere does it state Sasuke was the only innocent one.



That's true. But if Itachi spared Sasuke for being innocent and Sasuke is the only one left alive...what are we supposed to infer, here? It wasn't stated that Itachi just spared Sasuke for being Sasuke and killed all the other innocent Uchiha kids, either.

There simply isn't confirmation one way or the other, but the evidence we have thus far implies Sasuke was the only innocent Uchiha unless you treat Itachi's reasoning as something uniquely applicable to Sasuke and no one else, which I don't see a substantive reason to do. Not saying it's wrong or impossible, but I don't see a reason for that assumption, which is why I go with the alternative.



Danzio said:


> K.
> 
> What's is the problem then?



There isn't one; I have no clue why you asked me those questions.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That's true. But if Itachi spared Sasuke for being innocent and Sasuke is the only one left alive...what are we supposed to infer, here? It wasn't stated that Itachi just spared Sasuke for being Sasuke and killed all the other innocent Uchiha kids, either.
> 
> There simply isn't confirmation one way or the other, but the evidence we have thus far implies Sasuke was the only innocent Uchiha unless you treat Itachi's reasoning as something uniquely applicable to Sasuke and no one else, which I don't see a substantive reason to do. Not saying it's wrong or impossible, but I don't see a reason for that assumption, which is why I go with the alternative.
> 
> ...



He's only saying Sasuke is innocent and a kid as opposed to his parents. He's only saying what's the difference betwee sasuke and his parents.


----------



## CtrlAltPwn (Aug 6, 2013)

SolidusSnake said:


> Nagato obliterated an entire village, I don't recall seeing a dead child on panel in the aftermath (I did see one before the implosion though) but that doesn't mean I believe he spared them just because I didn't see it, same applies for Itachi. It leaves a bad impression on the character, Kishi does a terrible job at reconciling the wrong deeds of all his characters, he could have a character rape someone then give the victim a bowl of ice cream and tell us its all good, the perpetrator is a good guy now... it is what it is
> 
> I don't remember anyone referring or labeling Sasuke as the 'youngest Uchiha' during pre-massacre, so there is no reason to believe he was. People awed at him for being talented at such a young age, but nobody pointed him out as being the only remaining child of the Uchiha during that time. Sasuke being the 'prince' of the Uchiha also most likely added to his celebrity status back then and was focused on while the other Uchiha kids weren't mentioned.
> 
> ...



This puts certain things into perspective, and brings up an intriguing concept.

I also can't recall the manga showing younger children of the other clans throughout the existence of this manga. If the case is being argued of no Uchiha children existing during the genocide then the same can be said of all the other clans who also have yet to show their young.

I am curious to know if the people who believe there were no Uchiha children also believe the other clans also don't have young ones for the same reason. There is no evidence to prove that there are kids either but I feel its a safe assumption to make that there are.

Its better to have clear evidence to prove something, but in this case neither side has clear evidence, both sides making assumptions based on probability, odds and speculations since no one really knows for sure. Based on probability, I would say there probably was some Uchiha children other than Sasuke.

Everyone basically agrees Itachi is an anti-hero, his sin is that he had to sacrifice some innocent for the greater good. Thats why he can't be considered a true hero or a villain. I think he should be praised for the burden he carried with him, very few characters in this manga could have done what he did and not fall apart or breakdown. What he did is difficult to grade as good or bad, right or wrong... its a moral dilemma, the job had to be done one way or another and someone had to do it... Itachi was the only person who could do it. I can't blame him for what he did nor can you praise him for his actions... but I can respect how he handled such a difficult choice and carried himself. 

Although the torment of Sasuke I felt was a bit much, he didn't have to torture him like that. Is he batman? kinda...


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> He's only saying Sasuke is innocent and a kid as opposed to his parents. He's only saying what's the difference betwee sasuke and his parents.



That's...one interpretation.

But even if we accept that premise for the sake of argument, this was still Itachi's reason for sparing Sasuke; if that's the case, why would he kill all those other children, allegedly? If the reason he didn't kill Sasuke was because he was innocent, and he would have done so otherwise, then for what POSSIBLE reason would he have killed other innocent Uchiha children?


----------



## Dr Black (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke: Why only me?!
> 
> Itachi: You were just a kid. You had nothing to do with the coup.
> 
> ...



The truth as to why Itachi didn't kill Sasuke was actually mentioned in Part 1. Itachi was testing his strength and Sasuke wasn't worth killing.

But Kishimoto and retcons go hand in hand like PBnJ sandwiches so...

Besides, whether he killed children or not shouldn't even be up for debate. He killed his family but every character and their mother still thinks of him as ninja jesus. That's why he's terrible.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That's...one interpretation.
> 
> But even if we accept that premise for the sake of argument, this was still Itachi's reason for sparing Sasuke; if that's the case, why would he kill all those other children, allegedly? If the reason he didn't kill Sasuke was because he was innocent, and he would have done so otherwise, then for what POSSIBLE reason would he have killed other innocent Uchiha children?



but he's only saying this regarding his family, why do you think he ever considered sparing other uchihas? Sparing others isn't even part of the deal with Danzo. Danzo explicitly said you could at least save Sasuke if you killed the rest of your clan


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> but he's only saying this regarding his family, why do you think he ever considered sparing other uchihas? Sparing others isn't even part of the deal with Danzo. Danzo explicitly said you could at least save Sasuke if you killed the rest of your clan



...And why do you think Danzou said that?

Sasuke didn't know about the coup; this is also the reason Danzou said he could be spared. The condition was that Itachi had to take the blame for it so that Sasuke wouldn't go after the village.

If there were other innocent Uchiha children...then what the hell? Why couldn't they be spared under the same condition? Why only Sasuke?


----------



## ch1p (Aug 6, 2013)

Itachi only made an exception out of Sasuke because he loves him and he was innocent (both things). There is no way people can sit there and say that a man who decided killing the parents he loved had more problems killing a random child then them. If there had been more children in the Uchiha, he would have killed them, innocent or not. That was what he believed.


----------



## Danzio (Aug 6, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> It doesn't have to if they aren't shown *you can't go saying there more.*
> 
> thats like me saying there are more uzumaki kids with blonde hair out there.



I never said there were.Which is why I simply stick to genocide, which is a fact.



Nikushimi said:


> That's true. But if Itachi spared Sasuke for being innocent and Sasuke is the only one left alive...what are we supposed to infer, here? It wasn't stated that Itachi just spared Sasuke for being Sasuke and killed all the other innocent Uchiha kids, either.
> 
> There simply isn't confirmation one way or the other, but the evidence we have thus far implies Sasuke was the only innocent Uchiha unless *you treat Itachi's reasoning as something uniquely applicable to Sasuke and no one else*, which I don't see a substantive reason to do. Not saying it's wrong or impossible, but I don't see a reason for that assumption, which is why I go with the alternative.



I do. Sasuke was basically his life, which Danzo was well-aware of.

There may or may not have been other innocent people besides Sasuke, true, but I can say Sasuke wasn't spared solely because he was the only innocent one based on Itachi's actions throughout this manga- coupled with statements made by other characters. Sasuke was always viewed in a different light.... why Itachi came back to Konoha to check on Danzo. Obito said as much, when he stated his life was more important than the whole village. 



Nikushimi said:


> There isn't one; I have no clue why you asked me those questions.



Because I felt like you were being a little dishonest by implying Itachi didn't do the things he did because of his love for Sasuke, regardless of how he showed it. Besides the fact he also wanting to  rid himself of his guilt by letting Sasuke kill him.Was part of it because he was innocent? Sure...


----------



## JPongo (Aug 6, 2013)

Itachi is a complicated character, yes, and is far from perfect.  The guy basically admitted failure and hopes Naruto can right his wrong and be a better brother to Sasuke.  He found that he made mistakes and tried to redeem himself in edo.  He couldn't find the answer to the shinobi system just like everyone else.  Naruto is the chosen one to find that answer and many have put their faith in him to do so, including Itachi.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> ...And why do you think Danzou said that?
> 
> Sasuke didn't know about the coup; this is also the reason Danzou said he could be spared. The condition was that Itachi had to take the blame for it so that Sasuke wouldn't go after the village.
> 
> If there were other innocent Uchiha children...then what the hell? Why couldn't they be spared under the same condition? Why only Sasuke?



naw..Danzo said that cos he knew Itachi had a soft spot for his brother. He's using Sasuke as a leverage to make him accept the mission. Why didn't Danzo offer to spare other innocent kids? why he only said sasuke? Danzo made the threats twice, both time, he mentioned specifically Sasuke. Danzo said it himself in his fight with sasuke, Sasuke was special to Itachi

If being innocent was the reason he's spared, why did Itachi make no attempt to kill sasuke after he turned against the Leaf? He's stopped being innocent for how long? ever since he left the village. Sasuke even told Itachi in his face I'm fucking gonna destroy this village you love so much. Sasuke sided with his father and his clan, he's neither a child nor innocent, yet Itachi didn't do shit, instead he said sorry.


----------



## Shin Megami Tensei (Aug 6, 2013)

itachi was amazing. 9/10

i took off one point for dying so crappily. plus he was selfless to a fault, which i think is inhuman.


----------



## Lolitalush (Aug 6, 2013)

He did want to free himself of his guilt. Also, he said what he wanted at the end, rather than what he was "supposed" to say. 
That's human. He has plenty of human qualities actually.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

Danzio said:


> I do. Sasuke was basically his life, which Danzo was well-aware of.
> 
> There may or may not have been other innocent people besides Sasuke, true, but I can say Sasuke wasn't spared solely because he was the only innocent one based on Itachi's actions throughout this manga- coupled with statements made by other characters. Sasuke was always viewed in a different light.... why Itachi came back to Konoha to check on Danzo. Obito said as much, when he stated his life was more important than the whole village.



But see, that's an assumption. Sure, we know Itachi had special feelings for Sasuke, but whether or not those feelings influenced him to judge Sasuke selectively remains to be proven.



> Because I felt like you were being a little dishonest by implying Itachi didn't do the things he did because of his love for Sasuke, regardless of how he showed it. Besides the fact he also wanting to  rid himself of his guilt by letting Sasuke kill him.Was part of it because he was innocent? Sure...



No dishonesty intended; I am just going by the reasoning Itachi gave for sparing Sasuke.



JPongo said:


> You Itachi fans need to use some common sense



"Common sense" is just another way of saying "popular consensus," which is as inconstant as it is unconscionable.



> instead of zealously clinging to ambiguity to support your argument.



I was using ambiguity to refute other peoples' arguments, actually, not to support my own. I've given my own reasoning, independent of that, several times over the course of the discussion in this thread. And many times before, in other threads, consistently.



> It's become laughable to read pages of this sh*t.
> 
> This is what irks me of his fans, using any and all "ambiguity" to show Itachi in the best possible light.
> 
> When it comes to bashing and just loling at other characters, you really know how to nitpick any and every little thing to make say, Minato, look like a bad guy, a bad father, a bad sensei.  The story totally depicts him as a genius, a hero, a hokage and a savior.  Such wasted talent I must say.



The manga does the same for Itachi, yet the exact same thing is happening here.



> Itachi is a complicated character, yes, and is far from perfect.  The guy basically admitted failure and hopes Naruto can right his wrong and be a better brother to Sasuke.  He found that he made mistakes and tried to redeem himself in edo.  He couldn't find the answer to the shinobi system just like everyone else.  Naruto is the chosen one to find that answer and many have put their faith in him to do so, including Itachi.
> 
> I'd say the polls for Itachi are a bit more honest and tardish at the same time. Many 10s, few 1s.
> The Minato poll appears to be honest and haterish. 10s and 1s are not too far apart.
> ...



Maturity/immaturity is based on individual conduct, not alliance.



eurytus said:


> naw..Danzo said that cos he knew Itachi had a soft spot for his brother. He's using Sasuke as a leverage to make him accept the mission. Why didn't Danzo offer to spare other innocent kids? why he only said sasuke?



That's exactly my point, actually; other innocent children could've been spared for the same reasons Sasuke was. The fact that there weren't any after the massacre leaves me to wonder if there were ever any _before_ the massacre. Since there's no actual evidence that there were...what am I supposed to think, hm?



> Danzo made the threats twice, both time, he mentioned specifically Sasuke. Danzo said it himself in his fight with sasuke, Sasuke was special to Itachi
> 
> If being innocent was the reason he's spared, why did Itachi make no attempt to kill sasuke after he turned against the Leaf? He's stopped being innocent for how long? ever since he left the village. Sasuke even told Itachi in his face I'm fucking gonna destroy this village you love so much. Sasuke sided with his father and his clan, he's neither a child nor innocent, yet Itachi didn't do shit, instead he said sorry.



Didn't you listen to Itachi? He realized that the massacre had been the wrong solution. He put his faith in Naruto instead and believes that Naruto can redeem Sasuke because he possesses the same will as Shisui.

Kishimoto hasn't exactly been subtle about any of this.


----------



## Vice (Aug 6, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> It doesn't have to if they aren't shown you can't go saying there more.



But the manga directly states that there were more.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That's exactly my point, actually; other innocent children could've been spared for the same reasons Sasuke was. The fact that there weren't any after the massacre leaves me to wonder if there were ever any _before_ the massacre. Since there's no actual evidence that there were...what am I supposed to think, hm?



no, they couldn't have been spared cos Danzo didn't offer them to be spared, he didn't see the value in it, cos Sasuke was enough to make Itachi killed the entire clan.



> Didn't you listen to Itachi? He realized that the massacre had been the wrong solution. He put his faith in Naruto instead and believes that Naruto can redeem Sasuke because he possesses the same will as Shisui.
> 
> Kishimoto hasn't exactly been subtle about any of this.



oh really? that's funny, cos Naruto didn't seem to think the massacre was wrong, he thanked Itachi for saving the village, and he's alarmed the uchiha was planning a coup.

Itachi didn't mean the massacre was wrong, he only meant Sasuke "might" have changed his parents mind. anyway, I don't see how this translate to Sasuke is innocent even if he destroys the leaf.


----------



## Shattering (Aug 6, 2013)

After Itachi's last flashback it has been pretty obvious there was no way to avoid the massacre, if Itachi didn't accept to do it Danzo + Hiruzen + Anbu would have done it by themselves so...

Let's not forget Tobi, Itachi  was the only one that knew he was around, lot of shit happened in no time and diplomacy failed. If Sasuke could have changed his parent's mind crying in front of them is something we will never know.


----------



## Rios (Aug 6, 2013)

Lolitalush said:


> That's human. He has plenty of human qualities actually.



Like stumbling upon "Madara" in the woods, finding some magical items, which grant perfect offense and defense, having the perfect jutsu to get himself out of mind control, then another one to completely defeat a villain, who supposedly knew everything about him. Thats not even touching the fact that every character reveres him and tries their best to shower him with the most obscene compliments. The rest? They are just angry he one shots them.

He is currently way above human.


----------



## Rios (Aug 6, 2013)

a) the Sharingan makes you sterile
b) Uchihas were so evil they killed their unworthy children


----------



## The Inevitable Llama (Aug 6, 2013)

10/10 no doubt.

Most likely the best character in the series.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 6, 2013)

eurytus said:


> I think it's pretty ridiculous to claim Sasuke was the only child in the clan...which is what Itachi's fans are doing.
> 
> Most people are ok with mass murderers if they're villains like Danzo, if they're portrayed as hero, it's kinda annoying. daydreaming about killing people when your're 4? well not Itachi, we're supposed to believe he's a pacifist....



*Any* kid who wants to be a shinobi (which is every kid in this manga) is daydreaming about killing people.

So as far as I am concerned, there are no innocent kids in this manga.

Not even 8-year-old Sasuke, going to ninja school, where he was being trained to kill people.

Even if Itachi killed 50 kids under the age of 8, he was just killing 50 future soldiers.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 6, 2013)

^The ramen guy should've been offed when he was a kid.

He feeds killers.  Now I understand.


----------



## Lolitalush (Aug 6, 2013)

Rios said:


> Like stumbling upon "Madara" in the woods, finding some magical items, which grant perfect offense and defense, having the perfect jutsu to get himself out of mind control, then another one to completely defeat a villain, who supposedly knew everything about him. Thats not even touching the fact that every character reveres him and tries their best to shower him with the most obscene compliments. The rest? They are just angry he one shots them.
> 
> He is currently way above human.



I wasn't talking power levels.


----------



## Rios (Aug 6, 2013)

Lolitalush said:


> I wasn't talking power levels.



So what? You think him admitting his failure will change a thing, while his brother, the one who resisted every attempt at conversion from Jesus Naruto, got ready to bent over for buttsecks just because he was exposed to Saint Itachi's aura? 

What Itachi says means jack shit when the whole universe is on his junk. Again, this is not a human character but a martyr, who died for the sins of this so so bad ninja world.


----------



## Addy (Aug 6, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> *Even if Itachi killed 50 kids under the age of 8, he was just killing 50 future soldiers*.



the hell is weong with you, people? 

look, whether he killed children or not is irrelevant because kishi himself has yet to even HINT at that and the fact that:

1- itachi told sasuke he spared him because he didn't know meaning that there were no other uchiha children.

2- we have yet to see other uchiha children in the same age group as sasuke.

3- sasuke's ONLY friend was itachi and as a boy myself, that is very unlikely if you have family members from the same group.

listen, we assume there are children because it is a clan but kishi never hinted at it or addressed it because he is either too dump or didn't want baby killer rep for itachi. 

for fuck's sake, NO CHILD deserves to be killed. that was the point of the flashback hashirama had, pika. 

yes, they are still soldiers but that is NOT something kishi has shown so far. konoha 9 as children had the same problems and interactions every normal child has. yeah, they kill people or trained to do it in the future BUT KISHI NEVER ADDRESSES IT.

that is how kishi's manga worked so far. the same applies to itachi and uchiha children. however, kishi avoids that subject all together by not showing us other uchiha children. 

deer god, pika. you are as bad as that one guy who justified obito's pedophilia


----------



## Epicpudding (Aug 6, 2013)

Itachi used to be my favorite character, but not really anymore.

Still a good character, though.


----------



## Cybore (Aug 6, 2013)

So I saw a  lot of posts on the muder of children. Here's my 2c on the issue:

So what if Itachi killed children? Darth Vader did the same and people love him.  Different characters in different stories, but my point still stands. Not saying that killing children is cool or right, but this is not RL where sympathizing with a child killer would be a considered a unimaginable. Itachi's orders were to vanquish the Uchiha and that's more or less what he did. Danzou would not have had it any other way. Had the truth be known, the remaining Uchiha's would have been a threat and Danzou would not have allowed that.

Yes, if there were children killed (and more than likely there were), they were killed for plot purposes and to develop Sasuke's story.  Aside from Itachi, the last known remnant of the Uchiha clan was Sasuke. The whole Uchiha Massacre and Sasuke's growth would've been less impactful had there been a bunch of Uchiha brats remaining. Other than changing the story, there's nothing the author could've done about it other than reveal Itachi had them transferred to lala land on the fateful night.

Honestly, the massacre of the clan is one of the things that makes Itachi a better character IMO. His flaws and failures ironically tend to make him the better character if you hate sue like characters.  In the manga the term "Shinobi" has lately been defined pretty consistently as "one who endures" and there's arguably no one that has endured as much as Itachi. He did not kill his clan on a whim with a smile on his face, but with tears rolling down his cheeks.  

Aside from character, there are many reasons to love Itachi. Who can resist liking a character who can kill you a myriad of ways without lifting a single finger (or at least make it appear so). His ability to troll is also over 9,000, which to me is always a plus.


----------



## Jeαnne (Aug 6, 2013)

technically, its implied that Itachi commited the massacre to save Sasuke 


He had to choose between commiting the massacre and making sure that Sasuke would live, or not do it, and eventually die with everybody, including Sasuke.

It was what pushed him over the edge to make the decision, he saw that no mather what he chose, the Uchihas were gone...he just chose the option where he could save his brother.


----------



## narutoish (Aug 6, 2013)

Cybore said:


> So I saw a  lot of posts on the muder of children. Here's my 2c on the issue:
> 
> So what if Itachi killed children? Darth Vader did the same and people love him.  Different characters in different stories, but my point still stands. Not saying that killing children is cool or right, but this is not RL where sympathizing with a child killer would be a considered a unimaginable. Itachi's orders were to vanquish the Uchiha and that's more or less what he did. Danzou would not have had it any other way. Had the truth be known, the remaining Uchiha's would have been a threat and Danzou would not have allowed that.
> 
> ...



Nice post dude 

I think this should put an end to the uchiha clan masscare debate that has been going in for so many pages.


----------



## Yachiru (Aug 6, 2013)

Addy said:


> dude, there are like 50 uchiha and only one is not fodder named itachi and he soloed with obito the entire clan at night without them makign a huss and he was only 13
> 
> i doubt other uchiha would have grown to be something special



He solo'd 3 Jounin Uchiha all by himself, not breaking a sweat. Tell me why this guy needed Obito's help?


----------



## Closet Pervert (Aug 6, 2013)

Well let's look at the flaws first. There were many character/plot inconsistencies, too much wank, too much panel time and feats considering the lack of plot relevance, and some serious Mary Suing.

However, i give her 7/10 because the design is pretty cool, and her story was genuinely touching. I almost cried at the part where 
*Spoiler*: __ 



nah i'm fucking with you, 1/10 complete and utter shit character.


----------



## Default (Aug 6, 2013)

Addy said:


> dude, there are like 50 uchiha and only one is not fodder named itachi and he soloed with obito the entire clan at night without them makign a huss and he was only 13
> 
> i doubt other uchiha would have grown to be something special



Sasuke is the living proof, but maybe sasuke's genius comes from the genes he share with the King, who knows 



Yachiru said:


> He solo'd 3 Jounin Uchiha all by himself, not breaking a sweat. Tell me why this guy needed Obito's help?



mugen plot no jutsu


----------



## narutoish (Aug 6, 2013)

Closet Pervert said:


> Well let's look at the flaws first. There were many character/plot inconsistencies, too much wank, too much panel time and feats considering the l*ack of plot relevance*, and some serious Mary Suing.
> 
> However, i give her 7/10 because the design is pretty cool, and her story was genuinely touching. I almost cried at the part where
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





Lack of plot relevance? Which manga have u been reading?


----------



## Yachiru (Aug 6, 2013)

Default said:


> mugen plot no jutsu



Check my theory, Itachi's been holding back for a loooooong time now


----------



## Yachiru (Aug 6, 2013)

I wanna see his full power. I could die happily then.


----------



## Jeαnne (Aug 6, 2013)

Yachiru said:


> Check my theory, Itachi's been holding back for a loooooong time now


Itachi already managed to break the 4th wall and cast Izanami on us, if he uses his full power he will destroy the world


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 6, 2013)

Addy said:


> the hell is weong with you, people?
> 
> look, whether he killed children or not is irrelevant because kishi himself has yet to even HINT at that and the fact that:
> 
> ...



I never said he did kill others. I said EVEN IF, which implies that I don't necessarily believe it but am providing arguments in the case that that was the situation. Read my earlier posts.

Personally, I agree that it is irrelevant. 



> for fuck's sake, NO CHILD deserves to be killed. that was the point of the flashback hashirama had, pika.



I'm not saying they "deserve" to be killed. I'm merely pointing out that they were just going to grow up and kill others anyway. That's how Narutoverse works. For some reason a lot of people here think the life of a child is infinitely more valuable than the life of someone older because somehow they are "innocent" even though from what we have seen, all the children in this series want to kill people when they are older.

Ironically, the only kids who have ever expressed a desire to _not_ be a warrior were the kids in Hashirama's flashback. 



> yes, they are still soldiers but that is NOT something kishi has shown so far. konoha 9 as children had the same problems and interactions every normal child has. yeah, they kill people or trained to do it in the future BUT KISHI NEVER ADDRESSES IT.



So because they have stupid teenage angst, that exempts them from being killed like the soldiers they are?

Kishimoto has absurdly idealized murder from the beginning, whether he realizes it or not, by having the hero of the manga aspire to be the greatest shinobi of all time. 

The Konoha kids, even as genin, were soldiers in training from the moment they sat down in that classroom. Any kid who dreamed of being a shinobi was another soon-to-be-soldier. And from what Kishi has shown us, EVERYONE wants to be a shinobi. Supposedly there are civilians but we have never learned anything about how they live, nor have we ever met any child characters who are content being one.


----------



## Arctic Fox (Aug 6, 2013)

10/10.


----------



## Yachiru (Aug 6, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> Itachi already managed to break the 4th wall and cast Izanami on us, if he uses his full power he will destroy the world



He would be in the same league as Madara, which is ironic... yeah, he lied about surpassing Madara and all that shit, but you see how it would be ironic.

I don't care if it destroys the world, I wanna see it


----------



## eurytus (Aug 6, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> *Any* kid who wants to be a shinobi (which is every kid in this manga) is daydreaming about killing people.
> 
> So as far as I am concerned, there are no innocent kids in this manga.
> 
> ...



that's only you. If there's no one innocent in this manga, there would be no villains and no heroes. But that's not how it's portrayed in the manga. If violence and wars are just part of live, there would be no quest to create peace. But the manga IS about creating peace. Konoha was founded by two guys who thought their little innocent brothers going to wars and dying was unacceptable. And you think there's no one innocent in this manga? If Itachi was some cynical realist who saw every kid as future solider, then i'd have no problem with his character. But he's not, he loves peace, he despise wars, he thinks his brother is innocent and he's portrayed as a hero. He's like the antitheses of your view of this manga.

you take a cynical view of the manga, yet you like this mary sue character? I don't get it.



Cybore said:


> So I saw a  lot of posts on the muder of children. Here's my 2c on the issue:
> 
> So what if Itachi killed children? Darth Vader did the same and people love him.  Different characters in different stories, but my point still stands. Not saying that killing children is cool or right, but this is not RL where sympathizing with a child killer would be a considered a unimaginable. Itachi's orders were to vanquish the Uchiha and that's more or less what he did. Danzou would not have had it any other way. Had the truth be known, the remaining Uchiha's would have been a threat and Danzou would not have allowed that.
> 
> ...



the argument isn't about if a child killer can be a likable character, of course he can, people can like whatever they like. The problem is there're Itachi fans who've come up with bizarre scenarios where the Uchiha stopped having sex and babies all together to whitewash their favorite character.


----------



## Tony Lou (Aug 7, 2013)




----------



## Cybore (Aug 7, 2013)

eurytus said:


> that's only you. If there's no one innocent in this manga, there would be no villains and no heroes. But that's not how it's portrayed in the manga. If violence and wars are just part of live, there would be no quest to create peace. But the manga IS about creating peace. Konoha was founded by two guys who thought their little innocent brothers going to wars and dying was unacceptable. And you think there's no one innocent in this manga? If Itachi was some cynical realist who saw every kid as future solider, then i'd have no problem with his character. But he's not, he loves peace, he despise wars, he thinks his brother is innocent and he's portrayed as a hero. He's like the antitheses of your view of this manga.
> 
> you take a cynical view of the manga, yet you like this mary sue character? I don't get it.



I think if Itachi was a sue character he probably would have been able to stop the coup with talk no jutsu. But  we would not have a story then..

I do not believe he thinks his brother is innocent nor left him unchecked prior to leaving.  Remember that he left Naruto in charge of Sasuke. Naruto is destined to take care of him one way or another.  He already screwed up Sasuke's life by attempting to mold his destiny via his lies; he's not going to kill him before disappearing when he didn't do it before. 

Itachi IS a hero to me. Not a hero to some readers, nor the Uchiha clan, but he was definitively a  Hero to Konoha.  His sacrifice ultimately prevented a greater war that would have ensued if Itachi had not taken care of the clan (unless you wish you to make up your own story on how Danzo and the elders were lying or that something else could have been done). Regarldess of Itachi's move, the clan would have been wiped out along with him.  By utilitarian standards, Itachi maximized utility through the least amount of sacrifice.

There are some unexplained things with the character such as him working with Akatsuki and apparently not doing much about to stop the organization, but you can blame the author for failing to make it clear.


----------



## eurytus (Aug 7, 2013)

Cybore said:


> I think if Itachi was a sue character he probably would have been able to stop the coup with talk no jutsu. But  we would not have a story then..



he's still a sue character. he only fails when the plot absolutely demands it, he's wanked even when it contributes nothing to the plot. 



> I do not believe he thinks his brother is innocent nor left him unchecked prior to leaving.  Remember that he left Naruto in charge of Sasuke. Naruto is destined to take care of him one way or another.  He already screwed up Sasuke's life by attempting to mold his destiny via his lies; he's not going to kill him before disappearing when he didn't do it before.



in charge? no one's in charge of sasuke's life. 

I don't understand how he asked Naruto to take care of his brother has anything to do with if he thinks his brother is innocent. He said sasuke is innocent twice, what makes you think Itachi doesn't believe what he said?



> Itachi IS a hero to me. Not a hero to some readers, nor the Uchiha clan, but he was definitively a  Hero to Konoha.  His sacrifice ultimately prevented a greater war that would have ensued if Itachi had not taken care of the clan (unless you wish you to make up your own story on how Danzo and the elders were lying or that something else could have been done). Regarldess of Itachi's move, the clan would have been wiped out along with him.  By utilitarian standards, Itachi maximized utility through the least amount of sacrifice.



I was replying to pika who doesn't believe in there's any hero in this manga. I know he's portrayed as a hero.



> There are some unexplained things with the character such as him working with Akatsuki and apparently not doing much about to stop the organization, but you can blame the author for failing to make it clear.



no, I did not blame Kishi. It's really minor compared to other plot holes.


----------



## Cybore (Aug 7, 2013)

eurytus said:


> he's still a sue character. he only fails when the plot absolutely demands it, he's wanked even when it contributes nothing to the plot.



I guess we'll just have to disagree on what constitutes a sue. As for the wanking, you can blame the author for that but I find it hilarious.



> in charge? no one's in charge of sasuke's life.
> I don't understand how he asked Naruto to take care of his brother has anything to do with if he thinks his brother is innocent. He said sasuke is innocent twice, what makes you think Itachi doesn't believe what he said?



If he said Sasuke is innocent, my bad.  I just don't recall the panels.

By leaving him in charge of Sasuke, I meant Itachi trusted Naruto would deal with Sasuke one way or another and that he felt that the Sasuke was in good hands. By this I meant to say, he did not just leave Sasuke knowing his malice towards Konoha without some sort of backup plan (Naruto).



> no, I did not blame Kishi. It's really minor compared to other plot holes.


Care to name a few?


----------



## eurytus (Aug 7, 2013)

Cybore said:


> I guess we'll just have to disagree on what constitutes a sue. As for the wanking, you can blame the author for that but I find it hilarious.



that's like saying we shouldn't judge any character, cos it's always the author's fault. Let me rephrase, kishi made him a marry sue, sounds better?






> leaving him in charge of Sasuke, I meant Itachi trusted Naruto would deal with Sasuke one way or another and that he felt that the Sasuke was in good hands. By this I meant to say, he did not just leave Sasuke knowing his malice towards Konoha without some sort of backup plan (Naruto).



It's not some backup plan, he could only hope Sasuke turned out ok, it's completely out of his control. anyway he already said he'll always love sasuke no matter what he decides to do, he wasn't even bothered if sasuke's a threat to Konoha anymore.




> Care to name a few?



the most infamous one being Obito didn't kamui to kidnapp Naruto when he's a kid. Itachi wanted Sasuke return to konoha where Danzo would definitely try to kill him


----------



## Cybore (Aug 7, 2013)

eurytus said:


> that's like saying we shouldn't judge any character, cos it's always the author's fault. Let me rephrase, kishi made him a marry sue, sounds better?



Do I have to repeat myself? "I guess we'll just have to disagree on what constitutes a sue".  I do not think he is a Sue.  Sure some of the "wanking", like Hashirama saying itachi is the better Shinobi is a bit unecessary, but that doesn't make him a Sue IMO.  As for never failing, failing to stop sasuke and do something bout the Akatsuki are pretty big failures IMO. Fighting wise he is a bit unstoppable if you want to call him sue because of that, but he did falter a bit against Kabuto.



> It's not some backup plan, he could only hope Sasuke turned out ok, it's completely out of his control. anyway he already said he'll always love sasuke no matter what he decides to do, he wasn't even bothered if sasuke's a threat to Konoha anymore.



Ok so I used the wrong wording. Its not a backup plan. regardless, he did not leave Sasuke unchecked.  Threat or not threat he left Naruto to take care of him since he admitted to have failed. He loved his brother perhaps even more than Konoha and loved him unconditionally. Again, a blemish on his record as a sue/perfect shinobi.



> the most infamous one being Obito didn't kamui to kidnapp Naruto when he's a kid. Itachi wanted Sasuke return to konoha where Danzo would definitely try to kill him



I thought you meant plotholes regarding itachi. I don't recall Danzo trying to kill Sasuke until he confronted him. When and why would Danzo try to kill him again? After his fight with Itachi? If anything he'd be hailed a hero for killing the man who murdered the Uchiha clan. Danzo never had much interest in Sasuke before, so I don't know why that would change.


----------



## efmp1987 (Aug 7, 2013)

1/10. He the most perfect character. Smart. Talented. Good. Powerful. Everything positive can be used to describe that. And i dont liket!.


----------



## JPongo (Aug 7, 2013)

Danzo gave him a choice for him (save Sasuke) or Konoha (annihilate everyone) to do it.

Itachi killed his clan so that his theory of "Only Uchiha can beat Uchiha" will stand.


----------



## Magician (Aug 7, 2013)

I 100% guarantee that people would like these characters more if this forum didn't exist.


----------



## Xeogran (Aug 7, 2013)

BD said:


> I 100% guarantee that people would like these characters more if every Naruto forum didn't exist.



fixed for truth


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 7, 2013)

Alive Itachi = Hebi Sasuke level

Edo Itachi = MS Sasuke level, maybe weaker considering he was almost off'd by Tayuya.


----------



## Saturnine (Aug 7, 2013)

Itachi is stoic, serious, has great control over his emotions and can end fights without even moving an inch. I find that kind of badassery likeable. He will utterly stomp someone, then casually and emotionlessly tell them they're about to get pwned or already have been (like he nonchalantly told Nagato that he "better impart his final words"). I like watching people being humilated by other people, so I enjoy Itachi's showings.

His disadvantages include his excessive wisdom and intelligence, a portrayal that makes readers believe that he can prevail in any situation - actually no conclusive proof was given that he cannot, and him being the one to deliver the coup de grace to Nagato only exacerbated it.

Stil, a stu is a stu, so with all my sympathy for Itachi's character I can't go over 7. He's a stu, but I do like him.


----------



## efmp1987 (Aug 7, 2013)

For a wise man one said "Those who did no wrong to someone but is hated by that someone, is simply because he is acknowledged as great, for men do not detest others by virtue of being inferior.


----------



## Saturnine (Aug 7, 2013)

Oh, and I actually don't think Itachi was retconned. If you read his dialogue in flashbacks closely you can clearly see hints.

And the speech he made to the three Uchiha policemen was later validated by Hiruzen as "Hokage-level wisdom". So actually the writing of his character convinces me fully. The author's favoritism is fucking striking, though.


----------



## Seiji (Aug 7, 2013)

at the deleted posts.

10/10 for the solo king.


----------



## GaijanGeisha (Aug 7, 2013)

10/10 for one of my favorite characters in all of fiction


----------



## Njaa (Aug 8, 2013)

Oh boy where to start, he's probably the closest character i got to hating. Yes he was important to the plot of the series but some of the fucked up things he did were just so...ugh, and the fact that he never got called out on them is even worse.

Lets take Sasuke for example, Itachi said he loved his little brother so much that he was unable to kill him when killing the rest of this clan. But how does he show that? By mind raping him twice with the 2nd time making him relive the death of his parent over and over again. He goaded and prodded his little brother to the point of making him throw away the life he was making with team 7 and join a very dangerous individual. And in the end what does Itachi say for himself when Sasuke finally asked him for the truth...

"hey remember those times i mind raped you and utterly destroyed your life *twice!!*.......yeah you don't have to forgive me cause _i wuuuv you!!_.....bye "

An absolute shit excuse for a brother.

Then there's the wanking, and i'm not talking about fan wanking, cause while that can be annoying it is also understandable. I'm talking about the author wanking him again and again. He's hokage material at age 7  Hashirama saying he's a better shinobi than him . All that and he's never called out on all the fucked up things he did, especially to Sasuke.

2/10 mainly cause he, at one time, had unique jutsus.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 8, 2013)

Njaa said:


> He's hokage material at age 7  Hashirama saying he's a better shinobi than him .



Kishimoto hyping him up to have Hokage qualities at age 7 was when I busted out laughing hard!!! I was like people really can't say he will lose in this manga and then Hashirama said he is better than him was like no more debates.


----------



## Kamikorosu (Aug 8, 2013)

The King... Best char ever...

Voted 10/10 Of course


----------



## Veo (Aug 8, 2013)

I liked the character before his "true story" was revealed. A true story that was unnatural, forced and unimpressive. He is a murderer yet Naruto called him a hero. He loved his brother yet he completely ruined his life.

Obviously Itachi is one of Kishimoto's favorite character, but he wrote him awfully.

1/10


----------



## Ernie (Aug 8, 2013)

I actually didn't give a shit about his story, sorry. I liked him way more in part 1.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Aug 8, 2013)

BD said:


> I 100% guarantee that people would like these characters more if this forum didn't exist.



Yep, because the most dumb or should I say, ignorant? people read posts like these and decide to change their minds:



Danzio said:


> Itachi is, without a doubt, the most flawed, complex, contradictory, conflicted, illogical, mind-boggling character ever written in fiction. There?s absolutely nothing about his character that makes sense, other than his impressive skill set and the fact he?s suppose to be viewed in extremely positive light by the author himself; you can tell this by no one I mean, no one calling Itachi out in-universe, despite his more than questionable actions in the past . Instead he?s constantly praised, applauded, which, ironically, makes said character more confusing for the readers. Not to mention, Kishi loves to make everyone look stupid and/or ineffective next to him, regardless of power level.
> 
> He sees himself as a pacifist, yet committed genocide. He killed off his whole clan his own parents his own flesh and blood - something he later admits could?ve been avoided. He also helped capture and kill off innocent jinchūriki  after joining the biggest terrorist organization in the world that did massive amount of damage around the world. Even as a spy, his intelligence was garbage e.g.  Jiraiya went blindly into his death. He?s so noble, that he had no issue with Kisame chopping off Naruto?s leg or getting rid of Kurenai and Asuma.
> 
> ...



Even though it's true in a lot of ways.


----------



## Danzio (Aug 8, 2013)

↑ While Intelligent and well-versed people read, "Itachi solos, 10/10 " and change their minds.


----------



## Sabi (Aug 8, 2013)

10/10




Because.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 8, 2013)

So who is the most popular character? I heard Sasuke have the most votes and I looked at his and have 209 10s and 59 1s.. I actually want Sasuke to win


----------



## Kage (Aug 8, 2013)

Terrible waste of an antagonist.

Complete train wreck of a character.

1/10


----------



## Default (Aug 10, 2013)

Poll is still open, Itachi pls.


----------



## Chibason (Aug 10, 2013)

10/10 (only because I can't give him an 11)

So cool and mysterious when he first appeared and, even with subsequent revelations, he's still that same badass we first knew. A ninja genius of the highest caliber, with remarkable techniques and unparalleled skills. 

When all is said and done, he's one of the greatest all around shinobi in history. 

Uchiha Itachi: The badass other badasses admire-


----------



## Kaix (Aug 10, 2013)

Itachi is a tragic character. A genuinely good stoic who in his youth, believed it best to wholeheartedly fill the role he was given by his superiors. Despite his own feelings and opinion he followed the will of those above him perfectly (though not quite the orders to the letter) and devoted his entire life to this. He had the best of intentions, but did not have wise superiors and in his ignorant youth made a bad decision that he had to live with for the rest of his life.

His jutsu are pretty awesome. Crows and Mangekyo. Very simple and elegant no matter how used they've become by other characters. Of course his Susanoo is too hyped and then Izanami is overpowered but still.

He isn't my cup of tea, but he is cool enough. 7


----------



## Ƶero (Aug 10, 2013)

Started off as a cool, mysterious character in part 1 and at one point I was a fan but then part 2 comes along and he is so horrendously written that it's actually funny. Also it doesn't help that his fan base has the average intelligence of a peanut.

I'd give him a solid 5.


----------



## Nic (Aug 10, 2013)

yeah that's one of my issues with his character, used to love him in part 1, knew that he was going to be a good guy in the end, but the whole ET moments and retcons ruined his character for me.  Kishi tried to make everyone swallow the idea that a mass murderer of children, women, elderly was some sort of sue and a great shinobi even though all he ever did was actually make things worse, go figure.


----------



## eyeknockout (Aug 10, 2013)

10/10

he basically made the manga for me. without him in part 1 I probably would have stopped naruto a long time ago. After he died, my interest in the manga greatly plummeted


----------



## AvengeRpro (Aug 12, 2013)

still open, right?


----------



## Addy (Aug 12, 2013)

Ernie said:


> I actually didn't give a shit about his story, sorry. I liked him way more in part 1.



i didn't give a shit about him in part 1. i think, like most people, i began liking him after his death.


----------



## Rios (Aug 12, 2013)

Villain Itachi was so good. Why it had to turn this way >.>


----------



## Vice (Aug 12, 2013)

Addy said:


> i didn't give a shit about him in part 1. i think, like most people, i began liking him after his death.



That's when he, and by extension this manga, went to complete shit.


----------



## Rios (Aug 12, 2013)

Dil said:


> Mysterious cases always get solved at the end



Nothing was stopping Kishimoto from solving it the Uchihahaha way with crazy Itachi snatching an eye and running away to rejoin the bad guys. The possibility of Kakashi/Sasuke one eyed combos T_T


----------



## Addy (Aug 12, 2013)

Vice said:


> That's when he, and by extension this manga, went to complete shit.



the manga went to shit because:

1- sasuke continued on vengeance.
2- naruto jesus complex.
3- war arc.

itachi made all that possible


----------



## Yachiru (Aug 12, 2013)

Addy said:


> the manga went to shit because:
> 
> 1- sasuke continued on vengeance.
> 2- naruto jesus complex.
> ...



Itachi made the manga shit cus the manga is shit without him. Just like you can't have Bleach without Aizen, you can't have Naruto without Itachi


----------



## Rios (Aug 12, 2013)

Or Iruka. If it wasnt for him this manga would have been a one shot.


----------



## Rios (Aug 12, 2013)

Longer than Nagato.


----------

