# Mei compared to other Gokage



## IchLiebe (Dec 28, 2013)

Alright I was just in a thread and Kyokan said as others repeat that Mei is the weakest Gokage...thats false.

Im not just going to say she isn't the weakest, but the strongest when compared to the capabilities of the other Gokages and in a fight against them.

She's rather dumb,, im not going to lie and that does hurt her in combat.

Location: Forest
Distance: 25meters
Knowledge: None
Restrictions: None
Mindset: Bloodlusted, conservative(meaning they are going for the kill but aren't going to be reckless unless they have to).

Gaara- Is the only Kage with sensing abilities, and can fly...Possibly the only counter to Mei just depends on how high her mist can reach in the air and how fast it can go through his sand. We have seen it melt through Susanoo before Sasuke was saved. Gaara might be able to turtle up and grind sand the locate but Mei could be creating her own terrain as well to avoid sand. He can lose to Onoki, and maybe Raikage.

Onoki- He has nothing defensive to block against the mist except for burying himself with moving earth core, I don't know if jinton would get rid of the mist that is an unknown. And as with Gaara depends on how high the mist would reach, but I Onoki was shown above the clouds...but I would count that as surpassing the flight ceiling and a draw. Onoki would lose to Raikage, and possibly to Gaara.

Tsunade- She gets wasted in the mist. Loses to Raikage, Onoki, and Gaara.

Raikage- Same with Tsunade he has a good defense per say but doesn't have sensing capabilities thus wouldn't be able to find her in time. Could lose to Gaara.


So the only 2 losses that Mei could get would be by Gaara and Onoki depending on how certain mechanics would work, Gaara may win but I would say it would be 5/10



And most characters in the verse have no counter to Mei, she can almost solo more people than Naruto. Im not even going to say Jyuubito or Madara...Or Raikagenaut(3days of continuous linear slaughter it must've been a river of blood flowing). I think we should get a calc on raikagenaut, figure out what was the least possible amount he killed when he busted through the wall and first attack the army and get an average number and average time frame and scale it up to 3 days.


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## Ersa (Dec 28, 2013)

Hm, well alright. I'm actually think Mei is underrated but as it stands Kishimoto has treated her like shit. She was the only one of the Gokage who looked incompetent against the rather weak wood clones. Gaara saved her, Tsunade was punting her Susanoos, Onoki stalled his with Weighted jutsu and Raikage was managing until he got distracted. Add on little in the way of speed and reaction feats and she just looks even worse. Her offense is deadly however, that is her saving grace.

You bring up some good points but Mei rarely goes for Hidden Mist off the bat. Plus as you noted she's not the most tactical fighter.

Tsunade - This is the only member of the Gokage who I think Mei can beat, despite Tsunade being generally higher power-wise. Mei's a bad match-up for her, if she isn't stupid and puts mist up before Tsunade can find her then she should win more times then not. Yoton and Acid Mist are better then conventional attacks against regeneration as well I feel.

Onoki - Mei stands no chance, he's far too versatile and experienced. Flight will allow him to dodge Yoton jutsu, Rock Golems for defense against her Suiton and he'll find the chance to blast her with Jinton.

Ei - He just dodges most of her arsenal and chops her in two. Her lack of speed feats really hurts here. 

Gaara - Yoton will get through his defense eventually but Gaara will have her on the defensive with his sand. Once he builds up enough sand then it's game over. She has a chance here however.

So I think, loses to Onoki and Ei, has a chance against Gaara and beats Tsunade more times then not.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 28, 2013)

I think how its been portrayed Mei is the 4th strongest 

Gaara>Onoki/Tsunade>Mei>Raikage


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 28, 2013)

The problem with people saying Mei is the weakest of the Gokage is that they tend to base this conclusion on a comparison of her performance against Madara with the other Kage. People ignore her corrosive mist which has the potential to be really hax. She can alter the potency of the technique at will, and with what _presumably_ wasn't even the full extent of her acid's potency, she could melt Sasuke's Susano'o ribs with only a short period of exposure. 

Factor in that she can set up Hidden Mist and corrosive mist at the same time, as well as spit lava and enormous suitons around the battlefield haphazardly while her opponents are blinded. Also consider that Mei has access to doton and katon - two elements she has yet to use in battle. 

With all that in mind, Mei is a beast in 1 v 1's.

In terms of where she fares against the other Gokage, it mostly depends on the circumstances. At a range she would defeat Ei quite handily, but likewise in close quarters Ei would make short work of her. In most non desert fields I would argue that she has a shot at beating Gaara, but on a desert field he would kill her. Tsunade and Onoki would beat Mei in most circumstances, but there are plausible situations where she could kill them - such as if Tsunade didn't have much chakra stored in her seal, or if Onoki fought her inside an enclosed room where he couldn't fly.

In terms of general tiering she and her Gokage peers are all around the same strength level (as it should be), but she is undoubtedly below Onoki and Tsunade, who are portrayed as the stronger two of the Five Kage.​​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 28, 2013)

Mei would lose to all of them imo with the exception of Tsunade and that still can go eitherway.

Onoki > Raikage > Gaara > Tsunade >= Mei


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## ARGUS (Dec 28, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think how its been portrayed Mei is the 4th strongest
> 
> Gaara>Onoki/Tsunade>Mei>Raikage



Why is Raikage last in your list


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## ARGUS (Dec 28, 2013)

Mei can only beat Tsunade 1v1 
The thing is how u count strength 
If we go by overall strength than I believe the strongest would be someone who could defeat the most opponents in the naruto verse 
If we go by that then the strongest currently are either onoki or gaara


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## Veracity (Dec 28, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Mei would lose to all of them imo with the exception of Tsunade and that still can go eitherway.
> 
> Onoki > Raikage > Gaara > Tsunade >= Mei



That is just awful.


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2013)

I think she can defeat Gaara, and has a fair chance against Tsunade.
I don't see her defeating Onoki or A.


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## tanman (Dec 28, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> That is just awful.



It's also true.


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## Bonly (Dec 29, 2013)

While Mei may be underrated quite often, when it comes to comparing her to the other Gokage members people usually place her correctly imo. She's overall weaker then Onoki,Tsunade and Gaara so the best she could do is be the fourth strongest(or second weakest depending on how one looks at it). I used to think she was the weakest but after seeing a members post over the last few months(forgot his name sadly) I've come to think that it's a toss up between her and A, while I now slightly favor Mei>A.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2013)

I think the author cares about her the least, but I think her abilities are better than A and Tsunade.​


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## LeafShinobi (Dec 29, 2013)

She can beat only Tsunade.


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## Veracity (Dec 29, 2013)

tanman said:


> It's also true.



Not even close. Especially with all the hype Tsunade gets.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Alright I was just in a thread and Kyokan said as others repeat that Mei is the weakest Gokage...thats false.


She's tied for bottom feeder along with Tsunade.(And the later is unrivaled in the healing department)



> Im not just going to say she isn't the weakest, but the strongest when compared to the capabilities of the other Gokages and in a fight against them.


Bold claim Mr. Liebe sir. Let's see the argument utilized to support such a claim.



> She's rather dumb,, im not going to lie and that does hurt her in combat.


Rather dumb? How so? She's not done much to depict her lacking in the intel department. I'd say she's lacking in another very prominent area that I think you're.........



> Gaara- Is the only Kage with sensing abilities, and can fly...Possibly the only counter to Mei just depends on how high her mist can reach in the air and how fast it can go through his sand. We have seen it melt through Susanoo before Sasuke was saved. Gaara might be able to turtle up and grind sand the locate but Mei could be creating her own terrain as well to avoid sand. He can lose to Onoki, and maybe Raikage.


Rookie mistake.

First and foremost she'd get stomp, period. There's a little aspect of battle I'd like to call defense, and she's severely lacking in that department.(Hence is why she's clearly the bottom feeder of the group)

Note that MELTING SASUKE'S STAGE ONE SUSANO'O required here to be in an enclosed area. Suffice to say Mei's problem is that she doesn't really excel at anything. Gaara has his defense/support. Onoki his offense/support. Raikage speed/strength/durability. Tsunade strength/healing. Mei simply got what? There's nothing special about Mei, and here boil release or lava release weren't hyped to be anything special.(Melting a ribcage Susano'o from a chakara depleted Sasuke isn't nothing to write home about)

If you want to really add fuel to the fire, she proved to be the weakest link against Madara.(She did next to nothing outside of countering his Katon)

Mei has nothing under here belt. Average offense combine with LACK THEREOF defense = bottom feeder not worthy of the Kage mantle IMO.  



> Onoki- He has nothing defensive to block against the mist except for burying himself with moving earth core, I don't know if jinton would get rid of the mist that is an unknown. And as with Gaara depends on how high the mist would reach, but I Onoki was shown above the clouds...but I would count that as surpassing the flight ceiling and a draw. Onoki would lose to Raikage, and possibly to Gaara.


He can fly and again her mist hasn't been showcase outside of an enclosed area. Meanwhile Onoki can dust release her from the stratosphere, and there's nothing the poor girl can do  about it.

The trouble back with this argument is that relies on SPECIFIC circumstances. Mei's mist doesn't have enough stripes for you to argue in favor of it outside of the location in which it was presented. In order to even start to affect Sasuke's arm she required quite a bit of time, and the zetsu that surrounded her wasn't melted immediately. Thus your argument doesn't work EITHER WAY YOU SLICE IT, and I guarantee you Jinton is able to one shot here before her Mist does anything.



> Tsunade- She gets wasted in the mist. Loses to Raikage, Onoki, and Gaara.


LMAO, you really are riding this Mist thing a little too much. Another specific circumstances, right? Anyways Tsunade would likely knock her block off before her mist even begins to do any major damage.

Word of advice Mr. Ichi before making argument for something. Please oh please, know the facts behind said technique. You cosigned an attack that's only been showcased once, and doesn't have much to back up the way you are utilizing it. Mei's mist isn't a instant kill, period. 



> Raikage- Same with Tsunade he has a good defense per say but doesn't have sensing capabilities thus wouldn't be able to find her in time. Could lose to Gaara.


You're exactly right. Same as Tsunade. He'd knock the block out of little miss princess before she'd have a chance too...........



> So the only 2 losses that Mei could get would be by Gaara and Onoki depending on how certain mechanics would work, Gaara may win but I would say it would be 5/10


No. You clearly do not know what you're talking about.
Mei's mist isn't ON THAT LEVEL. It doesn't have the strips of any GG jutsu that exist, and more importantly she's just as open to others attacks.(Hence is why everyone one of your arguments starts off in a favorable condition for Mei)

Word to the wise, you can't do this. You can' arbitrate that Mei isn't something, yet your argument relies on MANIPULATING the circumstances in favor of the person you are arguing for.

Mei's problem is that she has next to nothing on the defensive end, and a very "MUCH TO BE DESIRED" offensive, game. He claim to fame is that she wields TWO KAKEI GENKAI'S, but they both are lacking.

Mei's hype fight was against a WEAKENED SASUKE, what does that tell you? Mei's best SOLO showcasing was against a WEAKENED SASUKE.
Mei with a group couldn't take out black zetsu.(The same black zetsu that claimed to be too afraid to kill Obito out of fear of being killed by Kakashi and Minato)

I'm sorry, but you really do your research before sticking your neck out for characters who............If you're the first one ON RECORD to defend Mei since her debut, that's not because you're the genius while everyone else is overlooking.......



> And most characters in the verse have no counter to Mei, she can almost solo more people than Naruto. Im not even going to say Jyuubito or Madara...Or Raikagenaut(3days of continuous linear slaughter it must've been a river of blood flowing). I think we should get a calc on raikagenaut, figure out what was the least possible amount he killed when he busted through the wall and first attack the army and get an average number and average time frame and scale it up to 3 days.


No counter to Mei? One needs a counter to Mei? No, Mei needs a counter to most characters in the verse.

She's the most lacking in the defensive department among the KAGE, OR ANY KAGE for that matter. I've never seen a Kage not deserving of the title since.........

I'm sorry but Mei is BOTTOM OF THE BARREL. Mei's mist isn't killing anyone if it couldn't kill white zetsu spawn. It isn't killing anyone if Sasuke's only injury from it was a rash. You put too much fate in attack that you clearly didn't do enough homework on.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 29, 2013)

Raikage blitzes Mei before she can do anything.

Oonoki Jintons through everything she throws at him and deconstructs her.

Gaara can defend from her Jutsu with his sand and use it to find her in the mist.

Tsunade can heal all damage with Byakugou, outlast Mei, and take her down with one successful hit. She can use Katsuyu's dividing ability to find Mei if she hides in the mist; Katsuyu also provides a rather secure defense.


Mei is the weakest.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 29, 2013)

Ei does not blitz Mei before she does anything. If they start 10 meters apart, and Ei goes V2 immediately before deciding to chop her head off at the match's start (conditions that massively favor Ei), _then_ he blitzes and ultimately beats her. However when has Ei ever done that ICly? Even when facing against Madara Uchiha Ei started off in V1 and didn't use V2 until later.

Furthermore, Mei has successfully attacked in unison with V1 Ei before. That doesn't make her as fast as V1 Ei, but it means she at least has the reaction speed to follow his movements and respond accordingly. In other words, V1 Ei will not be able to outright blitz Mei every single time he throws a strike at her, especially not if he has to cover sizable distance gaps first.

Mei also has the durability to take quite a few hits from Ei before being defeated. She was struck by giant Susano'o clones at least twice (probably more than that considering that she's very beaten up before she's been hit a second time) and managed to get up after being assaulted by Perfect Susano'o's sword slash. A few strikes from the Raikage won't put her down.

At a range Mei will screw Ei over massively. If she creates a Hidden Mist Ei has no way of finding her. Conversely, Mei doesn't need to find Ei because her ninjutsu have such huge AoE's that they can swamp the battlefield and hit Ei even without pinpoint accuracy. If Mei manages to survive one of Ei's blows, she can spew corrosive mist or another ninjutsu in his face afterwards.

In any normal circumstance Tsunade clobbers Mei. Unlike with Ei, one strike and its finished. Mei cannot afford to get hit at all, and while Tsunade is not as fast as a V1 Ei, she is still faster than Mei. If they started at 10 meters Tsunade would destroy Mei, but even at greater distances such as 20 or 30 meters, Tsunade's smashy smashy tactics would still give Mei a lot of problems. Even if Mei spews boiling mist in Tsunade's face at close range, Byakugou will sustain her while she pummels the fuck out of the Mizukage.

However even in the event that Mei manages to use both hidden mist and corrosive mist, Tsunade could have Katsuyu melt herself all over the battlefield to find out where Mei is treading her footsteps, and then report back to the Godaime. With Byakugou active Tsunade can sustain herself inside the corrosive mist until she locates the Mizukage. 

The only way I see Mei beating Tsunade is if Tsunade has very little chakra stored in her seal. That way she may not be able to sustain herself for very long inside the corrosive mist, and die before she finds Mei.​​


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## Jad (Dec 29, 2013)

Tsunade cannot just stand in the corrosive mist, because it was able to melt Sasunoo. Tsunade has much, much, much lesser durability compared to Sasunoo. And she took a while to heal an injury to her abdomen given by Madara when he stabbed her [1][2] (notice the amount of pages and the healing aura still around her in the last reference). Her healing simply won't keep with the amount of injuries she sustains within the corrosive mist.

Second of all, Madara, with sage chakara, was unable to heal his head wound. Illustrated by the fact the blood did not disappear off his forehead, while his arms and torso IN THE SAME SCENE, disappeared. Signifying the healed state. On top of that, there was no _healing aura on his head_ [3]. So without feats that Tsunade can heal head injuries, evident by Madara, and Tsunade's healing taking a few pages to close a gap wound, makes me believe standing in corrosive mist is a no go.

Also, Mei got hit by a jellified Sasunoo arm, what makes you believe she can take a blow from a serious Ei? Who casually backhanded his brother some meter's away, and treats walls like cup cake houses. On top of RM Naruto being sent some meter's away and complaining about the hit. I mean being dazzed by such a punch is a possibility for Ei to capitalize ON, considering she was unable to get right back up with a counter for the Sasuno that hit her. Hell, in this panel there was no exclamation mark on her recognizing a Sasuno behind her. She in-fact _looks_ like she could be unconscious slightly.​


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## Veracity (Dec 29, 2013)

Jad said:


> Tsunade cannot just stand in the corrosive mist, because it was able to melt Sasunoo. Tsunade has much, much, much lesser durability compared to Sasunoo. And she took a while to heal an injury to her abdomen given by Madara when he stabbed her [1][2] (notice the amount of pages and the healing aura still around her in the last reference). Her healing simply won't keep with the amount of injuries she sustains within the corrosive mist.
> 
> Second of all, Madara, with sage chakara, was unable to heal his head wound. Illustrated by the fact the blood did not disappear off his forehead, while his arms and torso IN THE SAME SCENE, disappeared. Signifying the healed state. On top of that, there was no _healing aura on his head_ [3]. So without feats that Tsunade can heal head injuries, evident by Madara, and Tsunade's healing taking a few pages to close a gap wound, makes me believe standing in corrosive mist is a no go.
> 
> Also, Mei got hit by a jellified Sasunoo arm, what makes you believe she can take a blow from a serious Ei? Who casually backhanded his brother some meter's away, and treats walls like cup cake houses. On top of RM Naruto being sent some meter's away and complaining about the hit. I mean being dazzed by such a punch is a possibility for Ei to capitalize ON, considering she was unable to get right back up with a counter for the Sasuno that hit her. Hell, in this panel there was no exclamation mark on her recognizing a Sasuno behind her. She in-fact _looks_ like she could be unconscious slightly.​



Huh? Mei had to absolutely drench Sussano in acid mist for it to take effect. Not only that, but it took a good amount of time to take effect regardless : this panel
If Tsunade has Byakago activated, and instantly Shunshins out of the acid, then she survives just fine. Don't underestimate her resilience and durabilty. She took no evident damage from Yasaka Beads, and was merely scarred by the instant teleportation tech. Between a mixture of being cautious and regeneration, she should survive acid mist pretty fine.

Also Sage healing does not equal Byakago. Hashirama having regeneration like Tsunades, does not mean they are equal or even the same. That's just IMO.


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## Jad (Dec 29, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Huh? Mei had to absolutely drench Sussano in acid mist for it to take effect. Not only that, but it took a good amount of time to take effect regardless : this panel
> If Tsunade has Byakago activated, and instantly Shunshins out of the acid, then she survives just fine. Don't underestimate her resilience and durabilty. She took no evident damage from Yasaka Beads, and was merely scarred by the instant teleportation tech. Between a mixture of being cautious and regeneration, she should survive acid mist pretty fine.



I have no qualms with Tsunade escaping the corrosive mist once in it, I have a problem with her just standing in it as long as she has her regenerative ability awakened. Also, that scan you posted is her lava technique, not her corrosive mist technique she used on Sasuke.​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 29, 2013)

Jad said:


> Tsunade cannot just stand in the corrosive mist, because it was able to melt Sasunoo. Tsunade has much, much, much lesser durability compared to Sasunoo. And she took a while to heal an injury to her abdomen given by Madara when he stabbed her [1][2] (notice the amount of pages and the healing aura still around her in the last reference). Her healing simply won't keep with the amount of injuries she sustains within the corrosive mist.​




She can if she's regenerating from the damage. As for the injury Madara inflicted to her abdomen - it was a critical hit to her stomach, and it dealt far more damage as well as damage that is harder to heal than Mei's corrosive mist inflicts. I should add, by page 6 it is very clear that Tsunade had already regenerated the damage Madara inflicted to her abdomen, it was being thrown into a rock with such brute force that required her to keep healing. The aura is coming from the bruises all over her body - not just that wound. Her healing is extremely fast, and considering _the rate_ at which Sasuke was being burned by Mei's mist there is no reason that Byakugou shouldn't be able to keep up. 



> Second of all, Madara, with sage chakara, was unable to heal his head wound. Illustrated by the fact the blood did not disappear off his forehead, while his arms and torso IN THE SAME SCENE, disappeared. Signifying the healed state.



I've had this argument with you before. Regeneration heals wounds, it doesn't magically make blood from wounds that have already been bleeding disappear. When Tsunade regenerates blood doesn't always disappear [1] Maybe it does sometimes, but its just an insignificant art inconsistency. You're reading way too much into this. Madara could obviously heal a flesh wound on his head, its just under-rating him to say otherwise.



> On top of that, there was no _healing aura on his head_ [3]. So without feats that Tsunade can heal head injuries, evident by Madara, and Tsunade's healing taking a few pages to close a gap wound, makes me believe standing in corrosive mist is a no go.



Probably just an art inconsistency. There was no healing aura around Tsunade at all when she pulled the two swords out of her abdomen when fighting the Susano'o clone [1] [2] And there was no healing aura around Tsunade when she _pulled out_ Madara's Susano'o sword. Heck, Madara could have just regenerated his head off panel, who knows. Its clearly not giving him any difficulties in battle.



> Also, Mei got hit by a jellified Sasunoo arm, what makes you believe she can take a blow from a serious Ei? Who casually backhanded his brother some meter's away,



The Susano'o clone evidently had the ability to replicate that feat [1] Mei gets sent flying.



> and treats walls like cup cake houses.



So do smaller, weaker variations of the same Susano'o that punched Mei [1] [2]



> On top of RM Naruto being sent some meter's away and complaining about the hit.



Right - because Mei screaming in pain doesn't stand as a testament of the Susano'o clone's might?



> I mean being dazzed by such a punch is a possibility for Ei to capitalize ON, considering she was unable to get right back up with a counter for the Sasuno that hit her. Hell, in this panel there was no exclamation mark on her recognizing a Sasuno behind her. She in-fact _looks_ like she could be unconscious slightly.



Except that by that stage Mei had already been beaten up pretty badly. When we see Mei before the wood clones use Susano'o, her hair and attire are still looking pretty _immaculate_, but we can see that even before that Susano'o clone punches her she looks a mess and far more bruised than before. She had clearly taken another hit(s) off panel. She was also hit by a giant Susano'o _on-panel_ and got back up immediately to _retaliate Madara's katon_ (it was the pollen that knocked her out).​​


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## Senjuclan (Dec 29, 2013)

Mei is the weakest of the current kages. Her offensive jutsus are great but can be easily countered with advantageous element (doton vs. suiton) or simple shunshin. Now, her real problem is lack of defensive jutsus. She has no means to protect herself against top shelf Justus.

The order of the gokage goes something like this:

1. Oonoki: superlative offense and good defense with ability to fly. Above average in battle strategies and iron determination. His only weakness is age and chakra.
2. Gaara: strong offense and legendary defense coupled with incredible chakra. Amazing support jutsus. His only weakness is that he is overall immobile 
3. Tsunade: incredible offensive tai juts with regeneration. Most useful summon. However, somewhat range limited. She is a monster in cqc but less so from long range
4. Ei: legendary shunshin and good physical strength but very range limited. Furthermore, his power is based on an element, raiton, which means a good fuuton user can rock him easily. Also, dude is dumb
5. Mei: see reasons above and she does not have heart. Gave up against Madara when Oonoki and co had not


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## IchLiebe (Dec 29, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Mei would lose to all of them imo with the exception of Tsunade and that still can go eitherway.
> 
> Onoki > Raikage > Gaara > Tsunade >= Mei



Well not like I care what you say, everything you say is usually udder bullshit.



Mei vs Madara was heavily disadvantaged because she couldn't use her acid mist over a large area due to the other kages.

NOt to mention her lava release also release a large amount of smoke that obscures vision.

Her water formation pllar is a good defensive suiton that blocked Madara's katon and only takes 1 handseal.



Why Mei is the strongest.

Defense- Gaara wins here, but Mei's offensive capabilties with boil release  evens up the defense, also she has a 1 handseal suiton able to block Madara's katon.

Offense- Boil Release, having another KG Lava Release, and high powered Suitons. Boil Release alone puts here above almost anything the other kage can dish out other than Onoki and I give it to Mei due to AoE, chakra consumption, and versatility.

She has good reactions, She is very observation of people(able to notice when Ao was being controlled).

I believe she is the most well rounded Kage other than Gaara, but I give that fight a 5/10 to both sides.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 29, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Mei is the weakest of the current kages. Her offensive jutsus are great but can be easily countered with advantageous element (doton vs. suiton) or simple shunshin. Now, her real problem is lack of defensive jutsus. She has no means to protect herself against top shelf Justus.


She blocked Madara's katon on a moments notice effectively with a suiton. How would Doton help against an enveloping mist that takes 1 handseal. Shunshin is stopped by lobbing lava at the opponent or just using the water formation pillar(1 handseal). We have seen Tobirama's Suiton eat through Hiruzens like it was candy.





> The order of the gokage goes something like this:
> 
> 1. Oonoki: superlative offense and good defense with ability to fly. Above average in battle strategies and iron determination. His only weakness is age and chakra.


His only defense is flying, and has no sensing abilities. You are going to need a large AOE or sensing methods to defeat Mei. And plus her mist should be able to reach him, unless he goes to far and then its a draw in my eyes. He is the most offensive powered kage but not the most well rounded which in a battle against varying opponents really matters.



> 2. Gaara: strong offense and legendary defense coupled with incredible chakra. Amazing support jutsus. His only weakness is that he is overall immobile


But how would he defend against the mist and lava spam? The mist would eventually eat through his chakra saturated sand and he can just keep applying layers because the mist would still be enveloped in sand and eating it faster because of more pressure built up. He is the most well rounded, but if someone can deal with the sand and evade it then he is fucked. His speed is non-existant and has to be constantly using chakra. Gaara could win with knowledge but thats not the stipulations.





> 3. Tsunade: incredible offensive tai juts with regeneration. Most useful summon. However, somewhat range limited. She is a monster in cqc but less so from long range


I agree she is very supplemental with allies but here she doesn't, its a 1v1. She literally has nothing that can stop Mei, unless the started face to face. Mei is a long distance to mid range figher. Gaara and Onoki wipe her off the map so she loses to 3 of other 4 Gokage...She is arguably the weakest


> 4. Ei: legendary shunshin and good physical strength but very range limited. Furthermore, his power is based on an element, raiton, which means a good fuuton user can rock him easily. Also, dude is dumb


Ive seen rocks smarter than him. He can win with intial Shunshin, but if acid mist ever goes up and Mei runs around he is fucked, time will be running out for him as he can defend with his lightning shield.





> 5. Mei: see reasons above and she does not have heart. Gave up against Madara when Oonoki and co had not


And what was the end result of that fight. Mei knew they couldn't win and was the only one to accept that...that could say something about her intelligence on how situations play out. Mei strongest Jutsus, Lava and mist would be made obsolete by Perfect Susanoo and Jinton would be by Preta path. They just couldn't win and she knew that. So the reason you discredit her fighting abilties is that she is realistic, she would've broke Izanami.

And she was able to intercept black zetsu and kick a fairly good distance.


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2013)

Mei is the fourth best Gokage, imo. I believe this because if you look at things objectively Mei's arsenal is more diverse and thus more effective against a number of opponent's than Ei. Mei can actually take down durability beasts through the usage of Lava and Acid Release, while Ei commands no such ability and be forced to turn things into a stamina contest. Mei has command over 3 elements which allows her to pull out the elemental advantage over every Jutsu but Doton & Suiton (but her suiton release is so advanced she'll have the upper hand against any Suiton user we've seen so far san Kisame), while Ei only has Raiton and the elemental advantage over Doton. Mei w/ her absolutely massive Suiton Ninjutsu also commands Mid to Long range options, but she is also strong in Short CQC due to Acid and Demonic Mist, while Ei can only attack through CQC. Ei and Mei could both defeat each other depending on the scenario and their are certainly scenario's where Ei will do better than Mei, which makes this a close call, but Mei's overall diversity puts her above Ei. And since both have similarly the weakest portrays among the Gokage, I think the two being placed roughly around each other makes sense from a Manga Cannon perspective. 

Above Mei there is Gaara and Tsunade. Gaara is at least equal as versatile as Mei, but also brings a better defense to the table. Tsunade also has a great deal of versatility (most thanks to Katsuya), but  she has a better defense w/ Byakugo (& again Katsuya) + is far superior in support functions. Gaara and Tsunade have also both been given better portrayals than Mei and Ei in the war, with Tsunade receiving the second best portrayal in the Madara battle and Gaara receiving much praise throughout the war for his potential and how far he has thus develop that potential.

Than coming in as the strongest is Onoki. Onoki has great versatility than Mei, Gaara, and Tsunade, and commands a defense that is at least comparable to Tsunade and Gaara's w/ Massive Dotons, Flight, Iwa-bushin, and weight alteration. But than Onoki also brings the hax of Kekkai Tota to the table and greater exp/knoweldge than any of the other Gokage. Onoki also undoubtably received thee best portrayal in the war in my mind, stopping a meteor w/ minimal assistance, countering one of Hashirama's Strongest Jutsu, nuking the 25 Susano'o Clones, being praised by Madara, and Madara clearly indicating that Onoki was the biggest hindrance to him among the Gokage.

So to me it's

1. Onoki
2. Tsunade
3. Gaara
4. Mei
5. Ei


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 29, 2013)

Turrin said:


> 1. Onoki
> 2. Tsunade
> 3. Gaara
> 4. Mei
> 5. *Ei*




A is definitely stronger than Tsunade, Gaara & Mei.




IchLiebe said:


> Well not like I care what you say, everything you say is usually udder bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Total and utter horse crap ladies and gentleman.


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## Mercurial (Dec 29, 2013)

In power ranking, I see them as:

1/2) Onoki / Ei
3) Gaara

4/5) Tsunade / Mei


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## LostSelf (Dec 29, 2013)

Mei is by no means stronger than the Raikage. The girl is slower than Tsunade, who is by a lot slower than Ei. And Ei's attacks are deadly enough to easily cut his own arm, who is much more durable than her body. And was able to cut Hachibi's giant horn with a Karate Chop.

Raikage dodges all her attacks, closes the distance and kills her. If she has the mist up, Ei just waits outside, she's not outlasting him.

She might beat Gaara depending on the location and if he doesn't have his Biju. But that's a big maybe, or Tsunade, if she plays her cards right (I don't buy Tsunade tanking acid mist or her lava jutsus and moving like nothing happened). But i still favor Tsunade here. 

Yes, she's the weakest.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> She blocked Madara's katon on a moments notice effectively with a suiton. How would Doton help against an enveloping mist that takes 1 handseal. Shunshin is stopped by lobbing lava at the opponent or just using the water formation pillar(1 handseal). We have seen Tobirama's Suiton eat through Hiruzens like it was candy.



1. You are making my point, you can counter an element with an advantageous element as she did against Madara. Her jutsus are almost all elemental, therefore easy to defend against. Even the great Madara had his elemental Justus countered
2. Your reading comprehension sucks. Doton counters suiton, which was used as an example of how one can counter elemental attacks
3. Lava? You mean that thing that Karin, yes fodder Karin, jumped over? 

Her Justus can be jumped over or evaded. Mist? A jounin can fight just listening to air sound as Kakashi showed against Zabuza and the Iwa jounin with invisibility 



IchLiebe said:


> His only defense is flying, and has no sensing abilities. You are going to need a large AOE or sensing methods to defeat Mei. And plus her mist should be able to reach him, unless he goes to far and then its a draw in my eyes. He is the most offensive powered kage but not the most well rounded which in a battle against varying opponents really matters.



1. Guess someone did not see his doton golem as defense
2. Her mist can't reach as far as he flies. He can avoid the mist by going underground with doton
3. Regardless of distance, jinton can kill her 



IchLiebe said:


> But how would he defend against the mist and lava spam? The mist would eventually eat through his chakra saturated sand and he can just keep applying layers because the mist would still be enveloped in sand and eating it faster because of more pressure built up. He is the most well rounded, but if someone can deal with the sand and evade it then he is fucked. His speed is non-existant and has to be constantly using chakra. Gaara could win with knowledge but thats not the stipulations..



Garaa can fly out of the range of Hashirama's forest, what will fodder mist and lava do? Furthermore, lava and mist can't burn through his defense. The only question is how would she defend against imperial 



IchLiebe said:


> I agree she is very supplemental with allies but here she doesn't, its a 1v1. She literally has nothing that can stop Mei, unless the started face to face. Mei is a long distance to mid range figher. Gaara and Onoki wipe her off the map so she loses to 3 of other 4 Gokage...She is arguably the weakest.



1. If you go back to read my comments, they are about the overall strength of the gokages not the one on one result of potential fights. In Naruto, match ups can make it so a weaker fighter can defeat a stronger one. So, please don't come back to me with questions about one on one fight outcomes
2. Katsuya and Tsunade can team up to rock her. Katsuya's acid makes it so Mei will be jumping out of the way and that means Tsunade can close the distance with shunshin. She can use her strength to unsettle her footing. 
3. Tsunade can survive any attack from Mei and just land one hit to finish her. Would it be easy? No but mid difficulty with katsuya's help



IchLiebe said:


> Ive seen rocks smarter than him. He can win with intial Shunshin, but if acid mist ever goes up and Mei runs around he is fucked, time will be running out for him as he can defend with his lightning shield.



What are the chances she survives the initial shunshin? 



IchLiebe said:


> And what was the end result of that fight. Mei knew they couldn't win and was the only one to accept that...that could say something about her intelligence on how situations play out. Mei strongest Jutsus, Lava and mist would be made obsolete by Perfect Susanoo and Jinton would be by Preta path. They just couldn't win and she knew that. So the reason you discredit her fighting abilties is that she is realistic, she would've broke Izanami.
> 
> And she was able to intercept black zetsu and kick a fairly good distance.



The result does not matter. Lack of heart means low determination, which means given the same situation and same Justus, someone with more heart will do better than her. It does not matter that one loses but how one loses. Madara acknowledged Oonoki's strength even though he considered them all to be flies. He did not acknowledge her because she was giving up


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## Shinryu (Dec 29, 2013)

Mei is a glass cannon and the worst kage ever.Kishi gave her two kekkei tota to make it amount to shit.


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## Thunder (Dec 29, 2013)

Mei looks bad to some because the only opponents she's fought thus far  (Sasuke and Madara) can defend against her acid. The same people arguing  that Mei sucks would probably also argue that Kisame sucks if the only  person he ever fought was Preta Path.

As for Mei verbally declaring her defeat against Madara's Perfect Susano'o . . . was she wrong? The only one who remained _consistently_  resolute during the fight was Ōnoki; everyone else doubted themselves  at some point until he raised their morale. Hence why Madara felt he  needed to crush Ōnoki's will and his alone. Because he knew that if Ōnoki fell the rest of the Gokage would soon follow.

Despite  Mei's words she never once tried to flee the match. She kept standing  alongside her teammates until the very end. Actions speak louder than words.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 29, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. You are making my point, you can counter an element with an advantageous element as she did against Madara. Her jutsus are almost all elemental, therefore easy to defend against. Even the great Madara had his elemental Justus countered
> 2. Your reading comprehension sucks. Doton counters suiton, which was used as an example of how one can counter elemental attacks
> 3. Lava? You mean that thing that Karin, yes fodder Karin, jumped over?


1. How? Plenty of ninja have been hit with elemental jutsus including top tiers. So are you saying that elemental jutsu are null? She has 2 KGs, one is a constant with a large area of effect that only uses 1 handseal.
2. Tobirama's suiton>Hiruzens' doton. We have seen elements win even though they are weak against the other one. Thats why we have ranks and chakra input. So if she countered Madara's katon with her suiton we either have to suggest that her's was of a higher rank or she put more chakra behind her attack.
3. They was in an enclosed space with allies around she couldn't just spew lava all over the place like she did against Madara. And even so, how is someone supposed to evade the acid mist. And Madara even noted the lava releases offensive capabilities.


> Her Justus can be jumped over or evaded. Mist? A jounin can fight just listening to air sound as Kakashi showed against Zabuza and the Iwa jounin with invisibility


And what other ninja has shown that ability? Not to mention that they are pressed for time as the acid mist is corroding their defenses and themselves. None of the gokage other than Gaara have a sensing method.





> 1. Guess someone did not see his doton golem as defense
> 2. Her mist can't reach as far as he flies. He can avoid the mist by going underground with doton
> 3. Regardless of distance, jinton can kill her


1. Won't block the mist.
2. Why can't it go that high? Is there a limit, not to mention once you get that high in the atmosphere its hard to breathe and everyone agrees that above 8000meters is the "death" zone and plus visibility would be null for Onoki and he would be able to locate her. 
3. How does he know her location?





> Garaa can fly out of the range of Hashirama's forest, what will fodder mist and lava do? Furthermore, lava and mist can't burn through his defense. The only question is how would she defend against imperial


What's Imperial? Gaara is the only one that can effectively deal with Mei but not an absolute win. Unless Gaara turtles up before the mist is cast then he is fucked, even if he goes up into the air the mist can reach him, he has never shown to go above the clouds. His best chance is to go underground which is rather out of character for Gaara to do. ALso the stipulations is no knowledge.





> 1. If you go back to read my comments, they are about the overall strength of the gokages not the one on one result of potential fights. In Naruto, match ups can make it so a weaker fighter can defeat a stronger one. So, please don't come back to me with questions about one on one fight outcomes


1. I wasn't talking about one on one specifically I stated that. Your reading comprehension is terrible.





> 2. Katsuya and Tsunade can team up to rock her. Katsuya's acid makes it so Mei will be jumping out of the way and that means Tsunade can close the distance with shunshin. She can use her strength to unsettle her footing.


So she can summon Katsuya, then Katsuya to use acid while Tsunade is shunshin toward Mei. What do you think Mei is doing? If she throws up mist then there is nothing Katsuya can do and Tsunade can heal for a while but she can't find Mei.





> 3. Tsunade can survive any attack from Mei and just land one hit to finish her. Would it be easy? No but mid difficulty with katsuya's help


Lava and Mist prove to much for someone who has no armor of any sorts and is heavily reliant on CQC.





> What are the chances she survives the initial shunshin?


Depends on what she chooses to do. She has multiple ways to counter. Water formation pillar would push Raikage back, Lava pushes him back and mist makes his speed null.





> The result does not matter. Lack of heart means low determination, which means given the same situation and same Justus, someone with more heart will do better than her. It does not matter that one loses but how one loses. Madara acknowledged Oonoki's strength even though he considered them all to be flies. He did not acknowledge her because she was giving up


He acknowledge Mei's lava release and mist. The end result would've been the same. I don't see how this plays into her combat capabilities and her ability to quickly overwhelm a variety of opponents that have a broad spectrum of offensive and defensive capabilities.

Mei can beat:

Itachi, Jiraiya, Obito, Konan, Sasuke, Minato(pre-Edo), Hidan, Sasori, Kakuzu, and many many more characters that would give all the other kages trouble.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 29, 2013)

Thunder said:


> Mei looks bad to some because the only opponents she's fought thus far  (Sasuke and Madara) can defend against her acid. The same people arguing  that Mei sucks would probably also argue that Kisame sucks if the only  person he ever fought was Preta Path.



Actually she was melting Sasuke's Susanoo and would've killed him if he wasn't saved.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 29, 2013)

In Sasuke's defence, he had barely any chakra, and as far as I'm aware it costs him chakra to sustain and repair his Susano'o shield when its damaged. Also that was just the ribs, not a higher form of Susano'o. Mei's mist corroded pretty slowly.

That being said she can probably increase the potency of the mist if she exerts more chakra into the mist.​​


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## Ersa (Dec 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Actually she was melting Sasuke's Susanoo and would've killed him if he wasn't saved.


To be fair this was a heavily weakened Sasuke running on fumes. He tried to punch a wall to escape and failed because he had nothing left. Hardly representative of how a true fight between the two would play out.


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## Thunder (Dec 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Actually she was melting Sasuke's Susanoo and would've killed him if he wasn't saved.



Indeed; my overall point was Sasuke needed Susano'o in order to survive the mist there. If he didn't have it activated we all know what would've happened.


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## Gondoteph (Dec 29, 2013)

The outcome of a battle doesn't seem to me appropriate to judge a character's strength. Since the result of a fight is variable depending on the conditions and the amount of advantages or disadvantages provided by them. Strength is a "stable" concept and should be judged based on stable characteristics ( Level of Ninjutsu , Gen, Tai, Intelligence etc ... In this case).
To clarify my point I'll give an exmple :  Imagine that we have an archer and a swordsman fighting eachother. And the big distance between them puts the first one in a very high advantage due to his fighting style , and the outcome of the fight will most likely be on the archer's favor. That doesn't necessarily mean that the archer is stronger than the swordsman , since the latter can just be as good , when it comes to using his sword , as the archer ( when it comes to using his arc and bow).


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## Nikushimi (Dec 29, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Ei does not blitz Mei before she does anything. If they start 10 meters apart, and Ei goes V2 immediately before deciding to chop her head off at the match's start (conditions that massively favor Ei), _then_ he blitzes and ultimately beats her. However when has Ei ever done that ICly? Even when facing against Madara Uchiha Ei started off in V1 and didn't use V2 until later.
> 
> Furthermore, Mei has successfully attacked in unison with V1 Ei before. That doesn't make her as fast as V1 Ei, but it means she at least has the reaction speed to follow his movements and respond accordingly. In other words, V1 Ei will not be able to outright blitz Mei every single time he throws a strike at her, especially not if he has to cover sizable distance gaps first.



The Raikage can very easily blitz Mei; the only thing stopping him would be CIS/PIS. We know he's fast enough to blitz Sasuke, so there's really nothing to argue about here.



> Mei also has the durability to take quite a few hits from Ei before being defeated. She was struck by giant Susano'o clones at least twice (probably more than that considering that she's very beaten up before she's been hit a second time) and managed to get up after being assaulted by Perfect Susano'o's sword slash. A few strikes from the Raikage won't put her down.



Nah, Mei doesn't have the durability to withstand a single hit from the Raikage. He took off the Hachibi's horn with one shot; there goes her entire midsection. Getting hit by a Susano'o clone doesn't compare to that at all.



> At a range Mei will screw Ei over massively. If she creates a Hidden Mist Ei has no way of finding her. Conversely, Mei doesn't need to find Ei because her ninjutsu have such huge AoE's that they can swamp the battlefield and hit Ei even without pinpoint accuracy. If Mei manages to survive one of Ei's blows, she can spew corrosive mist or another ninjutsu in his face afterwards.



None of Mei's Jutsu can get through the Raikage's Raiton armor, and with his Shunshin speed, she isn't hitting him anyway.


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## Thunder (Dec 29, 2013)

Yeah, Mei isn't tanking anything from Ē. She doesn't have any sort of special durability that would suggest otherwise.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The Raikage can very easily blitz Mei; the only thing stopping him would be CIS/PIS. We know he's fast enough to blitz Sasuke, so there's really nothing to argue about here.



V2 Ei was blitzing Sasuke, V1 wasn't. 



> Nah, Mei doesn't have the durability to withstand a single hit from the Raikage. He took off the Hachibi's horn with one shot; there goes her entire midsection. Getting hit by a Susano'o clone doesn't compare to that at all.



Didn't he slice off the Hachibi horn? He could certainly cut her up, but taking a regular blunt hit from him is definitely feasible, and I think damage from Susano'o clones definitely compare, unless he Liger Bombs her, or something.



> None of Mei's Jutsu can get through the Raikage's Raiton armor, and with his Shunshin speed, she isn't hitting him anyway.



Hidden Mist screws him over if used at a range. Prolonged periods inside a corrosive mist will kill him eventually.



Thunder said:


> Yeah, Mei isn't tanking anything from Ē. She doesn't have any sort of special durability that would suggest otherwise.



I think taking a few hits from those giant Susano'o clones was enough to suggest she can take a few punches from him without dying.​​


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## Nikushimi (Dec 29, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> V2 Ei was blitzing Sasuke, V1 wasn't.



A does not have V1 or V2 forms; you're thinking of Killer B. And B never used V2 against Sasuke.



> Didn't he slice off the Hachibi horn? He could certainly cut her up, but taking a regular blunt hit from him is definitely feasible, and I think damage from Susano'o clones definitely compare, unless he Liger Bombs her, or something.



The Raikage put his fist through Juugo's armored arm and chest in his second Juin state with a blunt attack, so no, Mei is not walking away from that if he means business.

And let's not forget the full-speed punch that supposedly could've killed KCM Naruto.



> Hidden Mist screws him over if used at a range. Prolonged periods inside a corrosive mist will kill him eventually.



I don't see how unless he breathes it in, but the Raikage's not THAT stupid.

If used at a distance, he doesn't have to enter the mist in the first place.



> I think taking a few hits from those giant Susano'o clones was enough to suggest she can take a few punches from him without dying.



It isn't; Oonoki also took a hit from those Susano'o and the guy can barely lift his own camping gear without hurting himself.

Madara's Susano'o clones were just weak as shit, and he was dicking around with the five Kage anyway.


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## Thunder (Dec 29, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I think taking a few hits from those giant Susano'o clones was enough to suggest she can take a few punches from him without dying.



Mei took one punch from a Susano'o clone (mind you we don't know how that punch stacks up to Ē's, but I'll bite). Gaara did cushion her fall with sand, however. Whenever Ē gets a clean hit off on someone they usually wind up in a wall after getting thrown back several meters: [1] [2]. If the punch itself doesn't kill her outright she'll still be incapacitated. 

And if you don't think a couple of punches are enough to bring her down, a Raiton chop should. 

Mei can defeat Ē under the right conditions (large starting distance + knowledge). If the distance is short enough though, she likely gets blitzed before she can set up Hidden Mist.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> A does not have V1 or V2 forms; you're thinking of Killer B. And B never used V2 against Sasuke.



No, I'm not talking about Bee. Labeling his shroud forms _V1_ and _V2_ is simply a more succinct and convenient way of saying that he moves faster in his raiton shroud when he exerts more chakra into it. He normally starts off without exerting much chakra into the shroud (hence V1) and should that fail he pumps more chakra into his shroud, causing his hair to raise and his movement speed to increase dramatically (V2).

With that in mind, it is far easier to just call them V1 and V2 (even though its not strictly canonically true).



> The Raikage put his fist through Juugo's armored arm and chest in his second Juin state with a blunt attack, so no, Mei is not walking away from that if he means business.



And yet when he hits _Muu_, _Madara_ and _Bee_ they all seem to still remain in tact afterwards. The bottom line is, Ei can punch through concrete and rock, so can Susano'o clones. Mei was hit repeatedly by Susano'o clones and lived to tell the tale - she will do the same with Ei unless he drops a Liger bomb or decides to start chopping her up.



> And let's not forget the full-speed punch that supposedly could've killed KCM Naruto.



Supposedly. But you know, and I know, that it wouldn't have.



> I don't see how unless he breathes it in, but the Raikage's not THAT stupid.



Its boiling steam, why _wouldn't_ it kill him? Ei is durable, but he isn't invincible. Prolonged periods inside an invisible corrosive mist that Mei can spew in abundance over the battlefield will wreck him just as it would wreck anyone. If he can't find her, he can't kill her, and if he can't kill her, then he's gonna boil.

Actually, Ei won't know what's even happening until he starts to feel pain, and by that stage he may have already began to breathe in the corrosive mist. 



> If used at a distance, he doesn't have to enter the mist in the first place.



If he doesn't enter the mist then he's just standing there. Furthermore its a mist - it hazy and it moves and spreads, its not so easy to maneuver around or dodge.



> It isn't; Oonoki also took a hit from those Susano'o and the guy can barely lift his own camping gear without hurting himself.



Onoki was crushed by part of a freaking meteor, he was beaten up as hell and he still stood up and fought on. If that isn't resilience I don't know what is.



> Madara's Susano'o clones were just weak as shit, and he was dicking around with the five Kage anyway.



They were physically very strong, reasonably quick, and highly durable. I don't know how that equates to being weak as shit.



Thunder said:


> Mei took one punch from a Susano'o clone, but Gaara did cushion her fall with sand. Whenever Ē gets a clean hit off on someone they usually wind up in a wall after getting thrown back several meters: [1] [2]. If the punch itself doesn't kill her outright she'll still be incapacitated.
> 
> And if you don't think a couple of punches are enough to bring her down, a Raiton chop should.
> 
> Mei can defeat Ē under the right conditions (large starting distance + knowledge). If the distance is short enough though, she likely gets blitzed before she can set up Hidden Mist.



Mei had already been beaten up pretty badly even before that Susano'o clone hit her. When we see Mei before the wood clones use Susano'o, her hair and attire are still looking pretty _immaculate_, but we can see that even before that Susano'o clone punches her she looks a mess and far more bruised than before. She had clearly taken another hit(s) off panel. She was also hit by a giant Susano'o _on-panel_ and got back up immediately to _retaliate Madara's katon_ (it was the pollen that knocked her out). 

Her durability is sufficient to handle a few physical strikes from Ei. 

I otherwise agree with you, I'm contesting the notion that Ei will kill Mei when she's at a large starting distance and has the time to set up a hidden mist and corrosive mist.​​


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## Thunder (Dec 29, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Mei had already been beaten up pretty  badly even before that Susano'o clone hit her. When we see Mei before  the wood clones use Susano'o, her hair and attire are still looking  pretty _immaculate_,  but we can see that even before that Susano'o clone punches her she  looks a mess and far more bruised than before. She had clearly taken  another hit(s) off panel.



We have no idea what happened off-panel. Mei could've been struck by  rubble kicked up from Susanō's swords (Madara seemed to be using them  more than the fists throughout the fight). She could've been grabbed and  thrown before being saved by Gaara. The way I see it, Kishimoto  switched back to Mei and Gaara when the situation became more dire than it already was for them.



> She was also hit by a giant Susano'o _on-panel_ and got back up immediately to _retaliate Madara's katon_ (it was the pollen that knocked her out).


It looks to me like Madara _slapped_ them. I say this because Susanō's palms are wide open, not balled into fists like they should be if it threw a punch. 



> Her durability is sufficient to handle a few physical strikes from Ei.


I'm  sorry, but I disagree. While you've proven Mei isn't as much of as a  glass cannon as we've been lead to believe, that still doesn't mean she  can tank a punch from Ē. Unless you can prove the Susanō clone has  comparable strength to him.



> I otherwise agree with you, I'm contesting the notion that Ei  will kill Mei when she's at a large starting distance and has the time  to set up a hidden mist and corrosive mist.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 30, 2013)

Mei is not weak, but she is the weakest of the five Kages. Do we even know how well Mei can navigate in the mist? Her reactions are the slowest, which is detrimental in a high level fight.

Tsunade is too tanky and a Taijutsu master and is faster. Overall more suited to battle than Mei.

A is just too fast and powerful with NinTaijutsu. 

Gaara's sand is too versatile.

Oonoki is Oonoki.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 30, 2013)

Aww shit looks like we got another one.




*OT:* At a considerable distance, Mei can actually be a pretty damn tough opponent. And she's a pretty good counter for tanks. But, comparatively, she still hasn't shown to be quite as strong as her Gokage counterparts mainly due to her intelligence being pretty damn low. If she put up mist as soon as she could against any opponent, and tried to be a bit more strategic, her double Kekkei Genkai could be extremely formidable.

*So the Gokage go something like:*
_Ōnoki
Tsunade/Ē
Gaara (No Shukaku due to lack of feats)
Mei_


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## tracytracy22 (Dec 30, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Aww shit looks like we got another one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What makes you think her intelligence is "pretty damn low"? Her plan to block any possbile exits by taking advantage of the characteristics of her yoton and trap sasuke in an enclosed space to increase the potency of her mist, while protecting the other kage at the same time shows pretty good forward thinking/planning. She maybe no itachi but she aint stupid.


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## Thunder (Dec 30, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Mei is not weak, but she is the weakest   of the five Kages. Do we even know how well Mei can navigate in the   mist? Her reactions are the slowest, which is detrimental in a high   level fight.



She's the Mizukage and actually knows the jutsu.  You gotta admit it  would be pretty odd if she of all people couldn't navigate the mist  well. But if you don't think she can do it that's fine.



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Aww shit looks like we got another one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think there's sufficient evidence to conclude that Mei is that  much dumber than her fellow Kage, if at all.  Not sure where this is  coming from. Maybe because she hasn't had as much  panel time as the  others? 

Mei is running Kirigakure well  despite being relatively new at her  post, and took over during a  critical time. Her predecessor, Yagura,  was responsible for the policies  that gave birth to the Bloody Mist. Mei put a stop to that stuff once she  became Mizukage in order to better their image. There must of  been some strategy involved. She hasn't been portrayed as some brilliant  battle tactician, but she's very observant nonetheless.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 30, 2013)

Well, mainly because she never really tried any sort of tactics against Madara, she just kinda went along with what the other Kage were doing. If she was as intelligent in battle as say the Tsuchikage, we'd probably get more input from her. I'm not saying she's stupid, though, just not quite as smart as, at the very least, the Tsuchikage and Hokage. 

I did phrase that a bit wrong, though. She is less intelligent comparatively would be a better term.


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## tracytracy22 (Dec 30, 2013)

Thunder said:


> She's the Mizukage and actually knows the jutsu.  You gotta admit it  would be pretty odd if she of all people couldn't navigate the mist  well. But if you don't think she can do it that's fine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When you think about it (and I know this is off topic), out of all the kages, she is one of the most worthy (if not the most worthy) of that title - she's verry underrated in terms of accomplishments, as well as combat prowess.

Despite her lack of experience,  she was able to put an end to the bloody mist era and stop the persecution of those with kekkei genkai (she's got 2!), as well as become the village's first female kage. This just goes to show what great leadership skills she has. She's undeniably kage material!


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## tracytracy22 (Dec 30, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Well, mainly because *she never really tried any sort of tactics against Madara,* she just kinda went along with what the other Kage were doing. If she was as intelligent in battle as say the Tsuchikage, we'd probably get more input from her. I'm not saying she's stupid, though, just not quite as smart as, at the very least, the Tsuchikage and Hokage.
> 
> I did phrase that a bit wrong, though. She is less intelligent comparatively would be a better term.



Interesting, I dont seem to remember Gaara or Ei making use of any tactics against Madara either! The only sort of tactic (I dont really consider it a tactic) that I remember Tsunade using was when she attempted to catch madara off guard after he stabbed her...


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 30, 2013)

Thunder said:


> We have no idea what happened off-panel. Mei could've been struck by  rubble kicked up from Susanō's swords (Madara seemed to be using them  more than the fists throughout the fight). She could've been grabbed and  thrown before being saved by Gaara. The way I see it, Kishimoto  switched back to Mei and Gaara when the situation became more dire than it already was for them.



Granted, there is no way of seeing how she had been beaten up, but she had taken a fair beating off panel , and it was obviously as a result of engaging the clones in combat. I doubt she was thrown though - being thrown wouldn't knock your hair loose from a bobble and rip off part of your dress when being smacked by an even bigger Susano'o failed to do so. I would imagine she was being smacked around by Susano'o clones, even if that only means back-handed, sword slapped or head-butted. Sustaining a lot of damage and then taking a direct punch from a Susano'o clone and living to tell the tale is impressive durability no matter how you look at it.



> It looks to me like Madara _slapped_ them. I say this because Susanō's palms are wide open, not balled into fists like they should be if it threw a punch.



I agree, he smashed them with open palms, but they still were sent flying and subsequently smashed into the ground with great might. The bottom line is, even if this particular attack isn't as strong as one of Ei's punches (though I question to what extent that is true), this attack still inflicted a notable amount of damage, which when added to the damage she sustained against the Susano'o clones, clearly highlights her endurance.



> I'm  sorry, but I disagree. While you've proven Mei isn't as much of as a  glass cannon as we've been lead to believe, that still doesn't mean she  can tank a punch from Ē. Unless you can prove the Susanō clone has  comparable strength to him.



Smaller, weaker variations of the same Susano'o that punched Mei can do the same thing that Ei does to walls when he punches them [1] [2] The larger and physically stronger Susano'o used by Madara would quite naturally have more power behind them.​​


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## Thunder (Dec 30, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Well, mainly because she never really tried any sort of tactics against Madara, she just kinda went along with what the other Kage were doing. If she was as intelligent in battle as say the Tsuchikage, we'd probably get more input from her. I'm not saying she's stupid, though, just not quite as smart as, at the very least, the Tsuchikage and Hokage.



Ōnoki ended up becoming de facto leader of the Gokage during the fight. He came up with the plan to break through Madara's defense, as well as the plan to blind him iirc. It makes sense that the other Kage would take a more supportive role as Ōnoki was guiding them. 

I suspect that Mei wasn't able to do much without placing everyone else in danger. Her jutsu aren't really made for team battles. She did think to launch Madara upwards with Suiton: Suiryūdan so that Ē and Tsunade could pummel him, at least.



> I did phrase that a bit wrong, though. She is less intelligent comparatively would be a better term.


Gotcha. 



tracytracy22 said:


> When you think about it (and I know this is off topic), out of all the kages, she is one of the most worthy (if not the most worthy) of that title - she's verry underrated in terms of accomplishments, as well as combat prowess.
> 
> Despite her lack of experience,  she was able to put an end to the bloody mist era and stop the persecution of those with kekkei genkai (she's got 2!), as well as become the village's first female kage. This just goes to show what great leadership skills she has. She's undeniably kage material!



I do think Mei is pretty underrated sometimes. Too bad Kishimoto didn't reveal the other Kage sooner than he did.


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## tracytracy22 (Dec 30, 2013)

Thunder said:


> I do think Mei is pretty underrated sometimes. Too bad Kishimoto didn't reveal the other Kage sooner than he did.



Yes its a shame. And its unlikely we will see any more from her given the manga is coming to an end. She had a lot of potential! I do hope kishi reveals who the 3rd Mizukage was - it should be very interesting. Perhaps that way we could get some of Mei's backstory - she's the only current kage we know nothing about with regards to her past.


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## Ersa (Dec 30, 2013)

All Mei really needs to be dangerous is speed and brains really, melting Susanoo ribcages already puts her offense as one of the best in the manga, Hidden mist is amazing for hit and run especially if you can combine it with Acid Mist. That's not even factoring the fact she probably has a bunch of A/B-rank Doton, Katon and Suiton. Kishimoto really missed an opportunity to show why having more then one Kekkai Genkai could have been absurdly hax.


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## Thunder (Dec 30, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Granted, there is no way of seeing how  she had been beaten up, but she had taken a fair beating off panel , and  it was obviously as a result of engaging the clones in combat. I doubt  she was thrown though - being thrown wouldn't knock your hair loose from  a bobble and rip off part of your dress when being smacked by an even  bigger Susano'o failed to do so. I would imagine she was being smacked  around by Susano'o clones, even if that only means back-handed, sword  slapped or head-butted. Sustaining a lot of damage and then taking a  direct punch from a Susano'o clone and living to tell the tale is  impressive durability no matter how you look at it.



To be honest I'm not sure if Mei was really thrown either. The point is, we can't use one scene to try and determine _exactly_  what occurred off-panel like you're doing here. All we know for sure is  Mei fought Susanō clones with Gaara and looked worse for ware  afterwards. We don't know _how_ she was hit (was it a glancing blow?) and we don't know _what_  hit her (was it debris, a punch, a sword slash?). I doubt Mei was  punched multiple times because Madara consistently used his swords more  than his fists to attack. In fact, that's why Madara punched her in the  first place: so he could follow up with a _sword_ slash. 

And  I'm not questioning whether or not it's an impressive durability feat,  I'm questioning whether or not it's impressive enough for us to conclude  that Mei can tank punches from one of the most physically strongest  characters in the manga. Even KCM Naruto expressed concern over getting  hit by Ē's strikes. Mei is obviously not more durable than him.



> I  agree, he smashed them with open palms, but they still were sent flying  and subsequently smashed into the ground with great might. The bottom  line is, even if this particular attack isn't as strong as one of Ei's  punches (though I question to what extent that is true), this attack  still inflicted a notable amount of damage, which when added to the  damage she sustained against the Susano'o clones, clearly highlights her  endurance.


Characters have been shown to be more durable than their environment since Part I. 



> Smaller,  weaker variations of the same Susano'o that punched Mei can do the same  thing that Ei does to walls when he punches them [1] [2] The larger and physically stronger Susano'o used by Madara would quite naturally have more power behind them.


The  problem with that comparison is Ē has destroyed far more durable  material than concrete before. Like Sasuke's ribcage Susanō. If you  still doubt who's stronger check out this panel. There we see Ē preventing Susanō from overpowering him by using his _non-dominate_ hand. That's impressive. 

You  must also take this into account: Ē is going to be moving much faster  than the Susanō clone when he goes to connect his fist. 

Ē has more raw power and speed behind each hit which means he can inflict more damage.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 30, 2013)

Mei needs some kind of a hax defensive technique to move on to strong shinobi tier imo.

Her offense is ok, not great, but she seriously lacks supplementary jutsus and defense.

Gaara = Ultimate defense, great mobility and area control.
A = Extremely durable and with his speed and reactions he is almost impossible to hit.
Tsunade = Not as durable as A but her regen is hax, she is hard to kill nontheless
Onoki = Can fly, great mobility and has a 1 shot technique.

These people are all beyond Mei's capabilities imo. She isn't nearly as impressive as any of them.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 30, 2013)

Thunder said:


> To be honest I'm not sure if Mei was really thrown either. The point is, we can't use one scene to try and determine _exactly_  what occurred off-panel like you're doing here. All we know for sure is  Mei fought Susanō clones with Gaara and looked worse for ware  afterwards. We don't know _how_ she was hit (was it a glancing blow?) and we don't know _what_  hit her (was it debris, a punch, a sword slash?). I doubt Mei was  punched multiple times because Madara consistently used his swords more  than his fists to attack. In fact, that's why Madara punched her in the  first place: so he could follow up with a _sword_ slash.



To reiterate what I said before, I appreciate that we cannot examine exactly how she was hit, that is not what I am trying to do. I am merely pointing out that for Mei to go from a pristine condition to looking like a complete mess she would need to have taken a good beating. Again: she was smacked by a giant Susano'o and crashed into the earth afterwards, and her hair and clothes managed to stay in tact. I would therefore imagine that for Mei to have been in the condition that she was she would have been sustaining heavy damage - you don't get into that condition in this manga by glancing blows and bits of rock hitting you. If she was _slashed_ by a sword she would have cuts and blood on her, which she doesn't. She was clearly taking a fair amount of blunt force trauma, in whatever form it may have come.

I understand why you would be hesitant to using off panel feats to suggest anything in an argument, but if we can put 2 and 2 together using bits of on panel evidence to understand what happened off panel there's no need for concern. Especially since what I'm suggesting is completely within reason and doesn't exactly require any suspension of disbelief. 



> And  I'm not questioning whether or not it's an impressive durability feat,  I'm questioning whether or not it's impressive enough for us to conclude  that Mei can tank punches from one of the most physically strongest  characters in the manga. Even KCM Naruto expressed concern over getting  hit by Ē's strikes. Mei is obviously not more durable than him.



The problem I have there is that Madara, Muu and Killer Bee were all hit by Ei before and, although clearly damaged, they were not rendered unconscious or even phased that much (even whenever they were smashed into a rock face/the ground afterwards). There is a danger in getting hit by Ei's strikes, if you get by enough of them you're going to be poorly. Ei is one of the physically strongest fighters in the manga - where most shinobi require dozens of punches/kicks to knock their opponent out, Ei only needs a few. However he isn't Tsunade, he doesn't one-shot foes.



> Characters have been shown to be more durable than their environment since Part I.
> 
> The  problem with that comparison is Ē has destroyed far more durable  material than concrete before. Like Sasuke's ribcage Susanō. If you  still doubt who's stronger check out this panel. There we see Ē preventing Susanō from overpowering him by using his _non-dominate_ hand. That's impressive.



As I said, characters without any outstanding durability took attacks from Ei and shrugged off the damage fairly easily - Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o shattering before Ei's strength stands as a testament of how weak it is was a defence just as much as it shows how strong Ei is. I would place any money on Madara's giant Susano'o being able to punch through Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o as well.



> You  must also take this into account: Ē is going to be moving much faster  than the Susanō clone when he goes to connect his fist. Ē has more raw power and speed behind each hit which means he can inflict more damage.



Eh. He was moving pretty fast when he punched Madara, and he was alright lol Even in base he's pretty fast, where he still managed to blitz Muu, who also recovered from the strike just fine.​​


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 30, 2013)

Thunder said:


> She's the Mizukage and actually knows the jutsu.  You gotta admit it  would be pretty odd if she of all people couldn't navigate the mist  well. But if you don't think she can do it that's fine.



Of course knowing Hidden Mist is probably a basic requirement to be a high level Ninja in Kiri. But the problem is that we have no idea how good she is at sensing or any type of heightened natural senses (like Zabuza and hearing, Kakashi and his sense of smell). I'm sure she has her ways of moving through the mist, but how well is the question. I'd be impressed if she could do it better than Zabuza, who could do it with his eyes closed.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 30, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> In Sasuke's defence, he had barely any chakra, and as far as I'm aware it costs him chakra to sustain and repair his Susano'o shield when its damaged. Also that was just the ribs, not a higher form of Susano'o. Mei's mist corroded pretty slowly.
> 
> That being said she can probably increase the potency of the mist if she exerts more chakra into the mist.​​



Susanoo bones are made of the same thing the armor is...chakra. It is suggested that susanoo rib cage is stronger than steel, yet if Mei's acid mist was corroding through it then that means that it corrodes at a higher capacity as hydrochloric acid or the same capacity. There is nothing to suggest that it can't melt through final Susanoo despite its capacity to melt through ribcage Susanoo because of their chemical make up.


Mei's defense is that she has a good versatile, overwhelming offense. She isn't fast speed wise but she has shown to cast lava quickly, a great suiton(blocked MADARA's katon, only take ONE handseal), and the corrosive mist.

Even against an army of ETs she can win out since the corrosive mist continuously damages the opponent.



Its like alot of people ignore that her mist is very corrosive as has been shown and its a constant, not to mention she can survive in it.

I live in MS, and on humid days someone will inhale a shit load of water vapor. So I see no reason why someone would be safe from breathing it in.


@Master Sephiroth:

She doesn't need sensing abilities, she is already attacking her opponent constantly, and she doesn't need to thicken the mist as much as Zabuza did. Zabuza trained his entire life on that technique. And how long did it take Kakashi to find Zabuza, Zabuza could have killed Kakashi, and Kakashi heard his movements to evade never to attack...But then how did he find Zabuza? His dogs, a sensing device and still needed the scent of Kakashi's blood on Zabuza's sword to track him. Mei don't use weapons shes uses acid, and lava both which produce chemical that could be poisoning and deadly when you inhale them.



A has never killed no one in 1 hit, Naruto blocked his attack, Sasuke defended, killer Bee evened it out. I just believe that Mei will be able to keep the Raikage at bay with Lava long enough to get the mist up, but its a 50/50 shot.. Depends on how he moves in accordance to her medium sized area of effect lava.

Onoki has no sensing method, and depends on flight ceiling. Mist can reach almost as high as the clouds so can he reach the clouds and even then his visibility would be non-existent. How does he know about the mist's abilities and its capacity. This is no-knowledge for both sides.


Tsunade gets wrecked.

Gaara- Can effectively defend against it, but when will he notice? I believe he wouldn't notice until he either breathed it in or he skin started burning.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> @Master Sephiroth:
> 
> She doesn't need sensing abilities, she is already attacking her opponent constantly, and she doesn't need to thicken the mist as much as Zabuza did. Zabuza trained his entire life on that technique. And how long did it take Kakashi to find Zabuza, Zabuza could have killed Kakashi, and Kakashi heard his movements to evade never to attack...But then how did he find Zabuza? His dogs, a sensing device and still needed the scent of Kakashi's blood on Zabuza's sword to track him. Mei don't use weapons shes uses acid, and lava both which produce chemical that could be poisoning and deadly when you inhale them.



She doesn't have the AoE to blindly attack fast opponents. Not thickening the mist works both ways obviously. If Mei can see well, so can the opponent. Anyone with the slightest bit of intel on Mei will assume that the mist is only pre-empting a stronger attack. It's a major telegraph to get the hell out of the way.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 30, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> She doesn't have the AoE to blindly attack fast opponents. Not thickening the mist works both ways obviously. If Mei can see well, so can the opponent. Anyone with the slightest bit of intel on Mei will assume that the mist is only pre-empting a stronger attack. It's a major telegraph to get the hell out of the way.



Why does she need to see?


Do you not grasp the mechanics of acid mist? The mist is the attack, and it quickly encompasses the battlefield everytime its been shown.

Not to mention since its corroded Susanoo and people on here generally agree that Susanno ribs are stronger than a kunai so its corrosive properties can corrode metal so human flesh would be quickly eaten through. Now if we assume the person is capable of breathing the mist in(I see no reason to think otherwise given real world mechanics) then she is damn near unstoppable.

She might be able to give Pain a run for its money by her self in these stipulations.

6v1 She is going to quickly use acid mist(blocks rinnegan vision) all paths other than deva and preta are destroyed.

Only people that have sensing capabilities a constant defense of high capacity and are very fast with a large AoE attack can defeat Mei. And even then its up in the air as her Corrosive mist is a constant attack. Not to mention spitting Lava at 1000degrees Celsius, with unknown doton and katon abilities(im not factoring them in, but it gives credence to her chakra control when we also factor in that she is the only shinobi ever shown to have two KG naturally(no physical enhancements like Orochimaru, Kabuto, Madara, Danzo, Etc)) and high level suitons...she is high kage level.


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## Garcher (Dec 30, 2013)

She's the weakest


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 30, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Why does she need to see?
> 
> Do you not grasp the mechanics of acid mist? The mist is the attack, and it quickly encompasses the battlefield everytime its been shown.



I was talking about Hidden Mist...not Acid Mist. Acid Mist doesn't obscure visibility that much at all and can be dodged by anyone fast, not to mention its potency is completely reliant on the area (i.e it would be less effective outside).



> Not to mention since its corroded Susanoo and people on here generally agree that Susanno ribs are stronger than a kunai so its corrosive properties can corrode metal so human flesh would be quickly eaten through. Now if we assume the person is capable of breathing the mist in(I see no reason to think otherwise given real world mechanics) then she is damn near unstoppable.



Once again, this is reliant on the location. And mist can be dodged. 



> She might be able to give Pain a run for its money by her self in these stipulations.



LOL no Preta Path and Asura Path would be enough. Preta destroys any Ninjutsu she has and then Asura finishes off with missiles. 



> 6v1 She is going to quickly use acid mist(blocks rinnegan vision) all paths other than deva and preta are destroyed.



Learn the difference between Hidden Mist and Acid Mist.



> Only people that have sensing capabilities a constant defense of high capacity and are very fast with a large AoE attack can defeat Mei. And even then its up in the air as her Corrosive mist is a constant attack. Not to mention spitting Lava at 1000degrees Celsius, with unknown doton and katon abilities(im not factoring them in, but it gives credence to her chakra control when we also factor in that she is the only shinobi ever shown to have two KG naturally(no physical enhancements like Orochimaru, Kabuto, Madara, Danzo, Etc)) and high level suitons...she is high kage level.



She is not high Kage level. She is Kage level, but not well above most Kages. Anyone fast can dodge her Suitons, Futtons and Yotons. Any strong Fuuton can take out Acid Mist. Any strong Suiton can stop Yoton from reaching them. Doton blocks Suiton, etc. She has poor reactions compared to someone as average + as Tsunade and no strong defensive techniques that we're aware of.


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## Jagger (Dec 30, 2013)

Elia said:


> I think she can defeat Gaara, and has a fair chance against Tsunade.
> I don't see her defeating Onoki or A.


No, I don't really believe she can defeat Gaara. That's just too far for her.

However, people tend to underrate her and it isn't surprising when Kishi puts her below shit-level (no offense to any fan out there). Aginast Madara, she barely did anything and was scared most of time while the likes of Onoki, Tsunade and A were still fighting with their hearts on the line. After that, she was barely shown and off-paneled by Madara along with the other Kage.

But I'd place her as the weakest, though.


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## Turrin (Dec 30, 2013)

Jagger said:


> No, I don't really believe she can defeat Gaara. That's just too far for her.
> 
> However, people tend to underrate her and it isn't surprising when Kishi puts her below shit-level (no offense to any fan out there). Aginast Madara, she barely did anything and was scared most of time while the likes of Onoki, Tsunade and A were still fighting with their hearts on the line. After that, she was barely shown and off-paneled by Madara along with the other Kage.
> 
> But I'd place her as the weakest, though.


I don't think Kishi puts her on shit-level. In the Kages battle she attacked Madara alongside Ei, and both of their attacks provide futile. So to me Ei was just as ineffectual as Mei. Ei only became somewhat effectual when Onoki was comboing w/ him or oddly enough when Mei was providing her Water Dragon to combo w/ his Raiton. In-fact Mei individually was more useful than Ei in the sense that she at least was countering Madara's Katons (which is no small feat) and blowing Madara back w/ her Suitons; and Kishi giving Mei that display of ridiculous scale Suitons was better than any new feats or portrayal Ei got individually (all he got was Raiton flow). 

Sure Mei was the first Kage to go down to the Susano'o-Clones, but no Kage, but Onoki really faired any better than Mei in that regard. Additionally Mei's skills when fighting individually are not good when team-members are around as she could not use her Acid or Demonic Mists as they would blind and in the case of Acid mist potentially threaten the lives of her teammates. So her fighting style would have been more limited and her going down to Susano'o-Clones a second or so before them despite this really isn't much to be ashamed of. 

In terms of the Kage Summit, we only saw her briefly, but in that brief instance she was rather casually decimating Sasuke's Rib-Cage Susano'o defense, to at least a similar extent that Ei did, forcing Sasuke to up his MS-game further than that; only difference here is that Sasuke than ran out of chakra and we didn't get to see how Mei would handle herself when Sasuke started up his game beyond the typical Susano'o Rib-Cage, but Ei didn't handle himself so well when Sasuke started upping his game past Rib-cage, so anything beyond getting instant raped, which Kishi didn't indicate she would be, would have matched Ei's portrayal against Sasuke to a certain extent.

As for her giving up hope, i'm under the impression that all of the Gokage (sans Onoki) were giving up hope at different times in the battle and even in that moment, and it was only due to Onoki's Will of Stone that he was able to rally them in these instances, which is why Madara very clearly implied that it was Onoki's will holding up the Gokage and by crushing Onoki they would fall apart like a house of cards. So to me I more see Kishi elevating Onoki rather than diminishing Mei.

Anyway to me it seems like Mei and Ei's portrayal has been very similar in the manga and nether has been shit on by the author, they just haven't received as good of portrayal as; Gaara, Tsunade, and Onoki. Which honestly is to be expected since Gaara and Tsunade have greater plot relevance than those 2 & for some reason Kishi decided to make Onoki the strongest of the Gokage, which leaves Mei & Ei the odd man/women out.

Ei has gotten more screen time though, so there is that, but i don't think if anything less screen time helps Mei cases as if her feats are able to match or come close to Ei's with less screen time, than chances are decent that w/ more she have even better standings in regards to him


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## IchLiebe (Dec 30, 2013)

There is as much mist as Mei can produce, and she changes the PH level of the mist, its the same substance but she is able to change the PH from the mist that is probably lets say neutral at first but she makes it more acidic then that of hydrochloric acid.

hit


And not even Susanoo can stop air
hit


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## kaminogan (Dec 30, 2013)

mei is a support/defence character, she is supposed to make it so that the other gokage have an easier time landing hits, dodging etc,

her lava style and acid mist is also good for trapping opponents, there also good defensively, as well as her hidden mist,

shes not the weakest of the gokage, she can handle all of them, except gaara since he has counters to all of her attacks,


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## tracytracy22 (Dec 30, 2013)

Jagger said:


> No, I don't really believe she can defeat Gaara. That's just too far for her.
> 
> However, people tend to underrate her and it isn't surprising when Kishi puts her below shit-level (no offense to any fan out there). Aginast Madara, she barely did anything and was scared most of time while the likes of Onoki, Tsunade and A were still fighting with their hearts on the line. After that, she was barely shown and off-paneled by Madara along with the other Kage.
> 
> But I'd place her as the weakest, though.



I think she could defeat Gaara if the location is advantageous to her eg. in the middle of an ocean or an enclosed space.

And I think your trying to make her out to be weaker than she actually is, and she's not even weak! She actually contributed more than Ei did against Madara. Ei was pretty pathetic when you think about it - he could not do anything without the assistance of Onoki's weight manipulating abilities eg. breaking Madara's rib cage susanoo, something Tsunade could do by herself. Mei (along with Onoki) was the only one who damaged Madara's susanoo clones so her attacks to have some power behind them, although this isnt really being disputed.


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## Thunder (Dec 30, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> To reiterate what I said before, I appreciate that we cannot examine exactly how she was hit, that is not what I am trying to do. I am merely pointing out that for Mei to go from a pristine condition to looking like a complete mess she would need to have taken a good beating. Again: she was smacked by a giant Susano'o and crashed into the earth afterwards, and her hair and clothes managed to stay in tact. I would therefore imagine that for Mei to have been in the condition that she was she would have been sustaining heavy damage - you don't get into that condition in this manga by glancing blows and bits of rock hitting you. If she was _slashed_ by a sword she would have cuts and blood on her, which she doesn't. She was clearly taking a fair amount of blunt force trauma, in whatever form it may have come.
> 
> I understand why you would be hesitant to using off panel feats to suggest anything in an argument, but if we can put 2 and 2 together using bits of on panel evidence to understand what happened off panel there's no need for concern. Especially since what I'm suggesting is completely within reason and doesn't exactly require any suspension of disbelief.



What you're suggesting is completely within reason only if you believe Mei has special durability. She's not durable (in my eyes) because she doesn't have enough feats to suggest that she is, and her durability has not been emphasized by the author. 

1. How many punches did Mei get hit with?
2. How much time passed between the first scene with Mei and the next?

If you can tell me this information (and how you got it), I'd be much more willing to accept your claim. You've got to meet me halfway here. Normally I would say its off-panel and that's that, but I have a lot of respect for you as a debater. I _want_ you to convince me.



> The problem I have there is that Madara, Muu and Killer Bee were all hit by Ei before and, although clearly damaged, they were not rendered unconscious or even phased that much (even whenever they were smashed into a rock face/the ground afterwards). There is a danger in getting hit by Ei's strikes, if you get by enough of them you're going to be poorly. Ei is one of the physically strongest fighters in the manga - where most shinobi require dozens of punches/kicks to knock their opponent out, Ei only needs a few. However he isn't Tsunade, he doesn't one-shot foes.


1. Madara _reacted_ to the hit and _blocked_ it. Something Mei is unable to do. She doesn't possess a visual dōjutsu to track Ē's movements and she doesn't possess Madara's top-tier speed / reactions, either. 

2. Mū (he didn't block the hit) was sent flying into a wall and was left incapacitated for a bit. Long enough for Ē to follow up with more strikes and turn Mei into mincemeat. As you know PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity) is turned off in the Battledome so that's exactly what he'll do. Mei suffers the same fate as Mū since she doesn't have Gaara to catch her this time, as I highlighted previously. 

3. Base Kirābī tanked a full powered Lariat amongst other things, so it's no surprise he could walk away from Ē's strike, which still did knock the wind out of him. Kirābī is a proven durability freak. Mei is not.


This is a fallacious argument anyhow. Their durability ≠ Mei's. If you want to prove that _Mei _can handle Ē's punch then you need to provide a panel of Mei tanking said punch. Or a punch that's comparable in strength to Ē's. A punch that's comparable in strength to Ē's is _one that has similar feats_. 



> As I said, characters without any outstanding durability took attacks from Ei and shrugged off the damage fairly easily - Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o shattering before Ei's strength stands as a testament of how weak it is was a defence just as much as it shows how strong Ei is. I would place any money on Madara's giant Susano'o being able to punch through Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o as well.


Do you believe Mei is more durable than KCM Naruto?



> Eh. He was moving pretty fast when he punched Madara, and he was alright lol Even in base he's pretty fast, where he still managed to blitz Muu, who also recovered from the strike just fine.


.
Well it's . . . _the_ Madara. He's able to counter Ē's speed. Kishimoto felt the need to relay this information to us through one of his characters, so it's a big deal. 

Actually, there wasn't any momentum behind that punch because Ē was _teleported_ directly in front of Mū. This only solidifies my point: if Mei were to be hit by a punch with Ē's full power and speed behind it she winds up plastered into a wall like Ē's other victims, at best.


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## LostSelf (Dec 30, 2013)

Something i would like to add, without getting in the middle of your debate, is that Mu was an Edo, therefore he might've regenerated or healed any damage Ei could've done to him.


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## Thunder (Dec 30, 2013)

Don't worry about getting in the middle of our debate. Fresh opinions are always appreciated. 

Anyway, I was going to mention that as well, but I figured Godaime already knows the counter that argument.

Typically when Edos are badly damaged Kishimoto takes the time to show them regenerating. We only saw Mū get back up. Of course, Mū could've regenerated off-panel. There's no way to know for sure. 

Personally I think he did probably regenerate.


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## LostSelf (Dec 30, 2013)

Actually, when Edos are badly hit, they stop for a while, regenerating. Nagato was down for a while (Even though it can be said that Kabuto stopped using him), and Itachi requested Sasuke's help when he was cut in half.

A lot of pages passed since Ei hit Mu. And when Kishi shows him again he is barely standing up. In my eyes he was badly injured and was regenerating. There was no reason for him to be down for so long if Kabuto was using him along with Madara before and after Mu was hit.

P.D: Itachi, when cut in half, was not shown regenerating, even if it was because of the steam produced by the clash of Kabuto's suiton and Sasuke's Katon. With Madara being in the spotlight, there was no reason to show Mu regenerating. Or at least that's what i think.


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## Thunder (Dec 30, 2013)

I agree with that. I'm saying Godaime probably won't. Whether Mū was merely incapacitated or "dead" after that strike doesn't really change my overall argument.


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## tracytracy22 (Dec 30, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> A lot of pages passed since Ei hit Mu. And when Kishi shows him again he is barely standing up. In my eyes he was badly injured and was regenerating. There was no reason for him to be down for so long if Kabuto was using him along with Madara before and after Mu was hit.



You do have to take into account that Mu at the time was split. His power was cut in half so even the smallest injuries would take a long time to heal.


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## Mithos (Dec 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> None of Mei's Jutsu can get through the Raikage's Raiton armor



I don't see how Raiton armor can defend against her lava or her acid mist.


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## tracytracy22 (Dec 30, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> I don't see how Raiton armor can defend against her lava or her acid mist.



Wow did you draw that yourself?


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## LostSelf (Dec 30, 2013)

Thunder said:


> I agree with that. I'm saying Godaime probably won't. Whether Mū was merely incapacitated or "dead" after that strike doesn't really change my overall argument.



Got it.



tracytracy22 said:


> You do have to take into account that Mu at the time was split. His power was cut in half so even the smallest injuries would take a long time to heal.



Edo Tensei automatically heals ignoring every issue. Weak or strong doesn't affect it since it doesn't depend on the chakra the edo has.


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## Thunder (Dec 30, 2013)

*@Matto*

It won't. 

Ē's best defense against Futton: Kōmu and Yōton: Yōkai  is his speed, not Raiton no Yoroi. But if the former is allowed to  spread too far Ē will have no where left to run. He has to breathe. Adding Hidden Mist just adds insult to injury.

Mei can defeat a whole list of characters with the above combo. The only problem is setting it up.


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## Mithos (Dec 30, 2013)

tracytracy22 said:


> Wow did you draw that yourself?



haha no. Sadly I have no artistic talent whatsoever


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 31, 2013)

Thunder I replied to your message but it either didn't send for some reason or I accidentally shut down my laptop before it had sent. So I'm gonna have type it up again. If its not up later on it will be up early tomorrow.​​


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## Veracity (Dec 31, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Got it.
> 
> 
> 
> Edo Tensei automatically heals ignoring every issue. Weak or strong doesn't affect it since it doesn't depend on the chakra the edo has.



Madara  was completely obliterated by his meteor, and healed almost instantly. Edo regeneration literally is just random.


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## Shinryu (Dec 31, 2013)

Well in a fight

*Tsunade*
Tsunade could summon Katsuyu to set up acid traps.However Mei is a mid range fighter and could set up lava traps instead.Her lava is slow if Sasuke can react to it so her lava wont hit Tsunade.Her suitons also dont pose a threat since Tsunade can survive bisection.Any of Tsunade's punches would kill her.However if she surrounds herself in acid mist it could lead to Tsunade commiting suicide unless Katsuyu gets rid of it

*A*
He blitzes her of the bat

*Onoki*
He can fly out of range then jinton her

His golems are pretty durable and he can reinforced their durability by making them heavier so her youton or sutiton wont help either

On a sidenote Onoki could be oneshotted by any of her Jutsu.

*Gaara*
This is just pure rape.

Gaara's sand can tank A's blows and Amaterasu there is nothing she can do to that sand at all.

Gaara can create a desert  and unless you can fly you  are dead


So in the end any of the Gokage could own her


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## Thunder (Dec 31, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Thunder I replied to your message but it either didn't send for some reason or I accidentally shut down my laptop before it had sent. So I'm gonna have type it up again. If its not up later on it will be up early tomorrow.​



Were you drunk again?

But seriously, something similar happened to me the other day so don't worry about it. I hit Preview Post and . . . it was _all_ gone. Of course this happened like twice in a row. 

On topic: Ē solos.


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## tracytracy22 (Dec 31, 2013)

Shinryu said:


> Well in a fight
> 
> *Tsunade*
> Tsunade could summon Katsuyu to set up acid traps.However Mei is a mid range fighter and could set up lava traps instead.Her lava is slow if Sasuke can react to it so her lava wont hit Tsunade.Her suitons also dont pose a threat since Tsunade can survive bisection.Any of Tsunade's punches would kill her.However if she surrounds herself in acid mist it could lead to Tsunade commiting suicide unless Katsuyu gets rid of it
> ...



You have to take into account several factors, particularly location and starting distance.

If Gaara and Mei were to fight in an enclosed space or in the middle of an ocean (where Gaara has no earth to grind into sand), you have to give Mei the advantage.

Against Onoki she was no chance unless its in an enclosed space - with a ceiling, Onoki cant fly out of her range and her large suitons would be perfect in this kind of a situation. Onoki would have to avoid them thus eliminating the threat of jinton.  And like you said, Onoki would be out shotted by her jutsu.

With Ei is all about starting distance. Given a short staring distance, Ei blitzes her immediately and its off with her head. Given a sufficiently large starting distance, this is where things can get interesting and could go either way.

Against Tsunade, I'm not entirely sure. I'd say its 50/50. It would be difficult for both of them. I dont think location or starting distance will have as much of an impact on this match up. It would come down to how much chakra Tsunade has in that seal of hers.

Mei has the tools to defeat her fellow kage but location and starting distance can play a major role in the outcome.


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## LostSelf (Jan 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Madara  was completely obliterated by his meteor, and healed almost instantly. Edo regeneration literally is just random.



We don't know how many time Mu was down even though we know how many pages. Everything after that could've happened fast. Like when Gai sent Madara out of an entire chapter with Hirudora, and said chapter only lasted as much as the blast.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 1, 2014)

Just remember everyone that her acid mist is more corrosive than hydrofloric acid- the most corrosive substance known to man.


If someone is trying to blitz her and she sprays her acid mist then that person is completely corroded very quickly.



Also for people who say she can onlly use Acid mist and that it is different than hidden mist. Well since they are both mist and the she is able to change the PH of her mist as well to make it more or less acidic. So why wouldn't she just be able to use hidden mist and change the PH of that mist when that is actually her ability not breathing acid mist, but changing the PH of already existent mist.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 1, 2014)

Don't see Mei beating Ei.
I'd say even in V1 there's a handful of people Ei can't blitz.

Ei can go from base / at rest / no shroud activated, to punching w/ his shroud on in the very next moment.
He does this against Obito at the kage summit: [1] and against Naruto [1]->[2]
So basically he can do that before any jutsu requiring seals takes place.

Sasuke w/ sharingan precognition and Naruto w/ sage sensing slightly beat out V1 speeds
[3][4]

So even in V1, Ei can preempt most people from using any technique that requires seal weaving (assuming both sides have knowledge and the starting distance isn't irregular from how fights usually start in manga). 

Then when he does preempt you, you have to have reaction speeds near sharingan precog or sage sensing to survive that first attack and continue the fight. 

tldr: Mei starts weaving ninjutsu seals and raikage teleports into her face unless starting distance is fictional (40m~50m)


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 1, 2014)

The only reason Mei looks weak compared to the other kage is because she's a lot less experienced than the other kage, who have decades on her, and because her jutsu cost a lot of stamina, while she herself only has normal kage stores.  She also had to spend a lot more of that chakra spitting up enough water to save everyone from Madara's mountain sized katons off panel, and as an exclusive long ranged ninjutsu based fighter, she's going to be burning her stores faster than everyone else anyway.

Then the only times we saw her was when there was a change in status quo, which means when she runs low on chakra and the fight starts going south, or she fails to launch a suiton in time, which is just going to happen if the battle drags on for hours.  Meaning we didn't see her do okay or successfully fend off the Madara clones for hours, we just saw her get punched.  We didn't really see the 99% of Madara's fireballs she stopped, we just saw the two she didn't, which makes people overlook the times she tag-teamed with the Raikage, washed away Madara's Susano flowing suitons into suitons, and otherwise partnered fluidly with the other 4 strongest, fastest, most experienced, and versatile ninja in the world.  

Oh, the last thing is that Mei's defence is really in her lethal offence, so when you survive that and reach her, ala Susanos, she gets hit.  Where Gaara's defence is defence on top of defence, and Raikage is tanky and armored, and Tsunade is tanky and regenerates.  So when anyone else gets hit, it doesn't look bad for them as it does for her, because she will take lasting damage.  Which if you think about it, also means that during the 5 Madaras fight, she basically had to avoid and repel everything lethal they threw at her, because she doesn't have a Plan B to heal, negate, or reduce the damage.

--------------------------------

In a straight fight, Tsunade and Ei depend more on starting distance for me.  I think Acid Mist will eventually get to either of them despite their resistance, so it depends on if they can reach and find her in time to counter a hidden mist/acid mist combo.  But that's classic close rangers have an edge over long rangers up close, and vice-versa far away, and that's nothing to be ashamed of.  Onoki stomps, but he probably beats everyone anyway since he's got crazy disco jinton streams, and Gaara counters her with Sand Cocoon defence and sand-sational offence.  His defence beats her offence.


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## Santoryu (Jan 1, 2014)

Gaara has even less experience so that's not a valid point.

And Onoki was indeed portrayed to be above the other Kages, but where does this Tsunade being up there with him rubbish come from? Nothing in the manga supports this.


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## Danzio (Jan 1, 2014)

Onoki> Gaara>  Raikage >  Tsunade > Mei


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