# Hyuuga Clan or the Uchiha Clan



## Bart (Jun 14, 2009)

*Please read before posting or voting.*

Who's stronger? Personally, I believe that the Hyuga Clan are stronger becuase they are underrated in comparsion to the Uchiha Clan, but the other factor is that they have both the Byakugan and Jyuuken.

What many seem to forget is that many of the Uchiha had not the Sharingan, and even if they had not all had achieved the three tamoe, and only a few had unlocked the Mangekyo, whereas every single member of the Hyuga Clan, including the branch family, had the Byakugan.

On a side note, I believe if Itachi and Madara had attempted to massacre the Hyuga Clan that they would have a little more difficulty in doing so. You remember when Itachi killed Shinsui alone, which means he had to isolate what the others called one of the strongest members of the Uchiha Clan. I don't think he could do the same to Hiashi or Neji, considering that the Sharingan would be unable to copy their Jutsu since they rely on bloodline techniques.

Please back up your arguments or opinions, and debate logically. All comments are most appreciated. Thank you


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## Yondaime (Jun 14, 2009)

Are yo suggesting that an Uchiha doesn't have a chance against a Hyuuga unless they have the MS?


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## Bart (Jun 14, 2009)

Yondaime said:


> Are yo suggesting that an Uchiha doesn't have a chance against a Hyuuga unless they have the MS?



Hey, Yondaime  Not at all. I'm merely suggesting that the Byakugan is a little stronger than the base form of the Sharingan.


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## Sunabozu (Jun 14, 2009)

To be fair to Hyuuga they were the original dojutsu users before Sharingan existed
EDIT: The Cloud village wanted the Byakugan so much i have to wonder why they were so interested in finding out its secrets


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## LordUchiha (Jun 14, 2009)

Uchiha. Not all of them may unlock sharingan but unlike the byakugan the sharingan evolves with its user. They are also skilled with katon ninjutsu and kenjutsu where as the Hyuuga are limited to close range special taijutsu. MS is kind of overkill because all known MS techniques are an instant kill. If used that way anyway its still up to the user whether to kill the opponent or not.


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## Yondaime (Jun 14, 2009)

サソリ said:


> To be fair to Hyuuga they were the original dojutsu users before Sharingan existed


And Jiraiya was a Sage before Naruto, but look what happened..........


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## Mio (Jun 14, 2009)

The Uchiha clan was already confirmed to be the strongest Clan along with Senju.


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## seastone (Jun 14, 2009)

The Uchiha clan is the most powerful. Kakashi stated in chapter 7, that the Uchiha clan is the most powerful clan in Konoha. Also that the Uchiha clan along with the Senju were feared as the strongest should make it more clear.


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## Bart (Jun 14, 2009)

サソリ said:


> To be fair to Hyuuga they were the original dojutsu users before Sharingan existed
> EDIT: The Cloud village wanted the Byakugan so much i have to wonder why they were so interested in finding out its secrets



I totally forgot about that. There was obviously a reason as to why the Raikage wished to possess the Byakugan.


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## Yondaime (Jun 14, 2009)

サソリ said:


> EDIT: The Cloud village wanted the Byakugan so much i have to wonder why they were so interested in finding out its secrets


Because the Hyuuga were still out in about and making a name for themselves on missions and such. It's only natural for the name of the Uchiha to be faded away when they are sectioned off into a corner in Konoha and watched constantly. They were made police and given fewer missions to do. I mean, "Konoha's Noble Clan" would draw more attention than those who are wished to be eradicated and shunned by Konoha.


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## Csdabest (Jun 14, 2009)

Overrall Hyuuga might be stronger since they all gain the byakugan. But the Uchiha members who unlockl sharingan and master it are most likely stronger


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## Bart (Jun 14, 2009)

Csdabest said:


> Overrall Hyuuga might be stronger since they all gain the byakugan. But the Uchiha members who unlockl sharingan and master it are most likely stronger



Hey  Cool, yeah I agree that once a Uchiha gains the three tamoe eye variation of the Sharingan, then they will be stronger and at a point in which they are able to rival certain members of the Hyuga Clan.


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## LordUchiha (Jun 14, 2009)

Hey could someone please explain how the Senju are so strong. Not trying to bash but what else can they do besides well use wood? I'm still on topic I just want to know this.


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## Bart (Jun 14, 2009)

LordUchiha said:


> Hey could someone please explain how the Senju are so strong. Not trying to bash but what else can they do besides well use wood? I'm still on topic I just want to know this.



Hey LordUchiha  Not all members of the Senju Clan could use Mokuton, which was the wood you were refering to, well not any that we know of. The Senju Clan were supposidely really brilliant in the art of Genjutsu, as well as Ninjutsu and Taijutsu.

Basically they were allrounders which amazing talent, which was why many of the five countries use to get Senju to stop Uchiha, or Uchiha to stop Senju.


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## Csdabest (Jun 14, 2009)

LordUchiha said:


> Hey could someone please explain how the Senju are so strong. Not trying to bash but what else can they do besides well use wood? I'm still on topic I just want to know this.



We have no idea really. Its somewhat hinted that it was Mainly Hashirama that gave them their fame. Do to his ability to control wood. Which could instantly change the battle field. Tobirama could also most likely flood an entiire area. And that chick who was stated to be extremely nice at genjutsu. So who knows. They probably just had some exceptional key players.


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## Mio (Jun 14, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Basically they were allrounders which amazing talent, which was why many of the five countries use to get Senju to stop Uchiha, or Uchiha to stop Senju.


I wonder why they didn't use Hyuga. 

That pretty much confirms that the Hyuga weren't as powerful as neither the Uchiha or Senju.


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## TheEndingDay (Jun 14, 2009)

From what I've always understood, in terms of battle, the Uchiha Clan and their powers are beyond compare.

The Byakugan is much better suited for reconnaissance, in terms of scouts given their ability to see over spectacular distances and their penchant for impeccably close quarters combat, should they be ambushed. This is why in the manga Hinata was paired with Shino and Kiba, two different reconnaissance-geared Genin. Kiba the tracker, Shino the bug-planter. Their teacher was a genjutsu specialist, whose moveset could also be employed in this method.

Neji was considered a cornerstone of their clan for his prowess and his abilities as a branch family member leaking into the main family skill set. This is why he was considered a genius. But we can't forget that he is in a taijutsu-centric team. And within that team, he is their primary recon man.

I've had enough of this debate over the years, so I finally took the time to explain why the Hyuugas gained hype in the early days of the anime, and what they're really meant to do given their skills and moveset. I hope most of you can agree.


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## Nagato Sennin (Jun 14, 2009)

We only really know about 3 Sharingan users, The rest could suck really bad for all we know.


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## Damoss (Jun 14, 2009)

EMS Uchiha said:


> I wonder why they didn't use Hyuga.
> 
> That pretty much confirms that the Hyuga weren't as powerful as neither the Uchiha or Senju.



This ended thread!

Nice thread though Bart mate!


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## Bart (Jun 14, 2009)

EMS Uchiha said:


> I wonder why they didn't use Hyuga.
> 
> That pretty much confirms that the Hyuga weren't as powerful as neither the Uchiha or Senju.



That's merely assumption. The Senju and the Uchiha had an emense rivalry, plus we don't know how many members of the Hyuga Clan were in existance within Konoha during that period, which was almost 70-80 years before the events of Part II. 

Alot of pieces of information have not been given by Kishimoto about the Hyuga Clan during that particular period. The Hyuga weren't, as we know of, being oppressed as the Uchiha were, so why involve themselves in affairs which don't concern them?


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## Mio (Jun 14, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> That's merely assumption. The Senju and the Uchiha had an emense rivalry, plus we don't know how many members of the Hyuga Clan were in existance within Konoha during that period, which was almost 70-80 years before the events of Part II.
> 
> Alot of pieces of information have not been given by Kishimoto about the Hyuga Clan during that particular period. The Hyuga weren't, as we know of, being oppressed as the Uchiha were, so why involve themselves in affairs which don't concern them?


Do i need to show you a page where Kishimoto clearly states the Uchiha are the strongest Clan of the two?


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## Bart (Jun 14, 2009)

EMS Uchiha said:


> Do i need to show you a page where Kishimoto clearly states the Uchiha are the strongest Clan of the two?



Hey EMS  The Uchiha were the strongest clan, but that title has obviously been passed onto the Hyuga Clan. Kishimoto did put fourth the idea, in the Second Databook, that the Hyuga were the strongest Clan within Konoha.


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## Sunabozu (Jun 14, 2009)

Bartallen i think the Hyuugas are under rated by some and the Uchihas are over rated


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## Mio (Jun 14, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Hey EMS  The Uchiha were the strongest clan, but that title has obviously been passed onto the Hyuga Clan. Kishimoto did put fourth the idea, in the Second Databook, that the Hyuga were the strongest Clan within Konoha.


Thats when the Uchiha died. Even when Sasuke was the only survivor they where still considered the strongest. The Hyuga are only the strongest currently living clan.


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## Krix (Jun 14, 2009)

The Hyuuga Clan <3


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## First Tsurugi (Jun 14, 2009)

Nah, based on what we've seen the Uchiha are stronger.

If there were more focus on the Hyuuga, and if they had equivalents to Itachi or Madara, then maybe it would be different.


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## TheEndingDay (Jun 14, 2009)

I'll repeat this again, in short form.

The Hyuuga are not a "fighting" clan, despite what some of you seem to think. Their focus is in recon, and the ability to defend themselves should they get caught.


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## Undertaker (Jun 14, 2009)

Confrontation of Uchiha and Senju Clans is a fact of narutoverse history. These 2 clans were on their own level. That`s why others feared them.

Where was Hyuuga clan? They were senju dogs long before Uchihas, probably.

Says a lot about the clans power.


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## Attor (Jun 14, 2009)

The Senju simply diluted into the other clans..


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## Khazzar (Jun 14, 2009)

Uchiha are ofcourse leagues above the Hyuga. Even their base 3 tomoe form. This is the strongest level of the base Sharingan - and as we have seen - it allows one to learn almost every jutsu,even those of the element kind (this ofcourse if one has the affinity) with no or little effort.
Sharingan is the bloodline of a warrior - it increases Taijutsu ( due to prediction ),Ninjutsu ( due to being able to copy things ) and grants almost irresistable Genjutsu feats.
What can Byakugan do? Except see beyond hills,walls and doors? It can see chakra? Nice feat but for a scholar not a warrior. And Jyuken is not that impressive if you ask me. Many forms of Taijutsu are more powerfull then Jyuken is.
In general,considering the facts - Uchiha and it's Sharingan are > Hyuga. I will not even count MS into all of this.


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## Yakkai (Jun 14, 2009)

Well consider that there's only two Uchiha left, one is an old man and one is gay. So really there isn't an Uchiha clan left. Hyuuga wins by default.


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## R00t_Decision (Jun 14, 2009)

TheEndingDay said:


> I'll repeat this again, in short form.
> 
> *The Hyuuga are not a "fighting" clan,* despite what some of you seem to think.* Their focus is in recon,* and the ability to defend themselves should they get caught.


Manga proof please.  (Considering they are elite Taijitsu users)


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## axellover2 (Jun 14, 2009)

Well they could be equally strong in a way.Ive always thought it was kinda like:

Rinnengan- (focus)ninjutsu
Sharingan-(focus)Genjutsu
Byakugan-(focus) taijutsu

Although we havent seen many hyyuga feats,it seems like they focus on taijutsu which is seen as weak against something like the sharingan,but who knows they might have a strategy around that.Although all the other Uchiha are dead so the Hyyuga kind of win by default.Unless Sasuke and Neji ever decide to fight.

also- Rinnengan>both


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## Lelouch71 (Jun 14, 2009)

Sasuke, Itachi, and Madara>>>>>the entire Hyuuga clan. So I will give it to the Uchihas.


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## Stringer Bell (Jun 15, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> What many seem to forget is that many of the Uchiha had not the Sharingan, and even if they had not all had achieved the three tamoe, and only a few had unlocked the Mangekyo, whereas every single member of the Hyuga Clan, including the branch family, had the Byakugan.



This is terrible argument and you are overestimating the Hyuuga Clan.  You are right about one thing, there are definitely more Byakugan users that Sharinagan users (since the Sharingan appears in a select few members of the Uchiha Clan). Its doesn't matter how many people in either of the two clans can use their dojutsu.  When it comes to dojutsu the skill of the ninja is based on how well they can use their eyes.  

Example lets just say there is 200 members in the Hyuuga Clan and they have the skill level of Hinata.  The Uchiha has 5 members but all 5 members can use there eyes like Itachi.  Obviously the Hyuuga Clan is weaker in this scenario.  It doesn't matter that all Hyuuga's can use the Byakugan, it depends on how well they can use their eyes.



Bartallen2 said:


> On a side note, I believe if Itachi and Madara had attempted to massacre the Hyuga Clan that they would have a little more difficulty in doing so. *You remember when Itachi killed Shinsui alone, which means he had to isolate what the others called one of the strongest members of the Uchiha Clan. I don't think he could do the same to Hiashi or Neji, *considering that the Sharingan would be unable to copy their Jutsu since they rely on bloodline techniques.



This is utter blasphemy!  Even the biggest Itachi hater would admit that he would poop all over Hiashi and Neji...at the same time!


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## Tachi67 (Jun 15, 2009)

Idk where, But I was reading this one topic a while back of how the Uchiha was created. A Demon Made Babies With A Hyuuga. So That's How Uchiha Started.... So Sharingan = Byakugan W/ Demon Powers? I hope I'm not the only one that read that thread :[


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## Mintaka (Jun 15, 2009)

Hyuuga.

They aren't weak against doton moves.  Rocks>uchiha afterall.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Jun 15, 2009)

As much as I hate the vast majority of the Uchihas (based from Sasuke's flashbacks....they seem cold, except for his mom).....I would say Uchiha......

Because I like Obito !


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## Nic (Jun 15, 2009)

I'm sorry but until I see the Hyuuga clan do something worthy I have to say the Uchiha clan is stronger.


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## Sine (Jun 15, 2009)

Uchiha stand at the top of the world


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## Hazell (Jun 15, 2009)

until the hyuuga or a byakugan user is noted for doing anything mentionable in the history of the narutoverse, i'll go with the uchiha


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## Mickey Mouse (Jun 15, 2009)

The Uchiha clan


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## Elias (Jun 15, 2009)

Hyuuga's were hyped up in part 1. With all we've seen in part two with The Sharingan it makes them look veryyy mediocre. Kishi could still have something yet to be revealed about the byakugan but I doubt he'll focus on the Hyuuga clan much more in the manga.


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## Attor (Jun 15, 2009)

I voted Uchiha.


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## SpeKtoR (Jun 15, 2009)

The Uchiha can steal nearly any jitsu  (so they will be well prepared), predict movements, and even the normal sharingan can hypnotize. 

Uchiha wins.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jun 15, 2009)

I have no Idea what Kishimoto has to do for some people to accept the Uchiha clan is better. After all this time any normal person would think the answer is quite obvious but meh, denial is a strong drug.


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## Daisho (Jun 15, 2009)

In strict canon terms, the Uchiha are the stronger clan, and the Byakugan the stronger doujutsu.


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## Rock1337 (Jun 15, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> *Please read before posting or voting.*
> 
> Who's stronger? Personally, I believe that the Hyuga Clan are stronger becuase they are underrated in comparsion to the Uchiha Clan, but the other factor is that they have both the Byakugan and Jyuuken.
> 
> ...



Shisui was only known for his speed (I think). Plus, he took him out long before he embarked on his quest to slaughter his clan (at least six months).

I voted Uchiha because of the Mangekyo and its destructive power. 

With that said, I would think Itachi wouldn't have a lot of trouble dealing with a Hyuuga; why? Because, Neji has shown to be pretty much the strongest of his clan members thus far shown, meaning that the current members aren't really that strong and can't even fully ultilize their powers, as evidenced by Neji learning not only their most advance techniques, but also improving upon him, to the point where he surpassed the 64 palms technique with his own 128 palms, which further believes me to believe that Itachi could easily handle a Hyuuga. Also, they all have a blind spot (above the third theocratic vertebrae, I think), only Neji has been shown to go to great lengths to cover it up, meaning that Itachi could exploit it to easily dispatch them, provided that the target isn't join by other Hyuugas looking every which way to cover up their common blind spots but even then, they would have to be fast enough to react.



Hazell said:


> until the hyuuga or a byakugan user is noted for doing anything mentionable in the history of the narutoverse, i'll go with the uchiha



How about because the Hyuuga deserve praise; why? Because, they can (theoretically) control their opponents chakra flow as well as take them out in one hit, provided that they aim for a vital organ. Furthermore, Neji can now strike from a distance, whose to say that he can't hit vital organs from that distance well (in addition to anyone he teaches his techniques to)?

I really think they're even but put me down for the Uchiha clan. 

On a side note, if the Uchiha have an advanced form of their bloodline and the Sharingan really is an offshoot of the Byakugan, whose to say that the Byakugan doesn't have its own evolution as well?


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## Missing_Nin (Jun 15, 2009)

Endurance 117 said:


> We only really know about 3 Sharingan users, The rest could suck really bad for all we know.



yea... but those 3 sharingan users can pretty much solo the entire hyuuga clan.


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## Kazekage Gaara (Jun 15, 2009)

Uchiha wins, just because of Sharingan. Neji is one of my best characters, and i hate Sasuke, but Uchiha are something


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## TienSensei (Jun 15, 2009)

I think alot of people are relying too heavily on preconceived notions that were never fully delved into and basing assumptions on what Kishimoto has decided to focus on, in terms of the story, instead of what is clearly apparent and not.

The only fact is that the Uchiha are/were considered the strongest clan, aside the Senju, because of the sharingan. The assumptions are why? The idea that anything is instant kill is ridiculous, seeing as the Senju were par for the course alongside the Uchiha. Outside of one member, the clan consisted of talented shinobi who specialized in kicking ass. Any thought that the Hyuuga clan would be outmatched is based on assumptions alone.

At the very least, the Hyuugas have complete control over a powerful doujutsu, strong work ethic, but also a desire to be stronger for themselves and their clan without any recognition needed. They are clan that lives and dies together, and would only seek battle when necessary for the pillars to stay standing. Quite contrary to the Uchiha.

Battle? Thats what the Uchiha do and only know. Its why they were relegated to quarantine. Its why Madara had a hissy fit. Its why they killed eachother and Itachi killed them. The clan cant figure out how to better themselves without taking that which another possesses. Its what the clan wanted and Madara couldnt handle. Power was necessary to him and the ones that couldnt let it go. Its similar to the samurai without a war to fight. It doesnt take a genius to recognize this, Kishi pretty much laid it out as the inherent problem as a clan. Quite the contrary to the Hyuuga, who couldnt care less about what any outsider thinks about their practices.

Im not going to debate skillset because thats connected to the user and Kishi. But for anyone to think that Kishi couldnt draw up an Hyuuga in the league of the main characters and not seem like it came out of left field, youre views may be too far gone. The skills, the talent, insane doujutsu, chakra control, room to be expanded upon, and work ethic are already apparent.

Its up to Kishi to focus on it, but a boy can dream (...within reason). Cant he?


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## Bart (Jun 15, 2009)

pkp033 said:


> This is terrible argument and you are overestimating the Hyuuga Clan.  You are right about one thing, there are definitely more Byakugan users that Sharinagan users (since the Sharingan appears in a select few members of the Uchiha Clan). Its doesn't matter how many people in either of the two clans can use their dojutsu.  When it comes to dojutsu the skill of the ninja is based on how well they can use their eyes.
> 
> Example lets just say there is 200 members in the Hyuuga Clan and they have the skill level of Hinata.  The Uchiha has 5 members but all 5 members can use there eyes like Itachi.  Obviously the Hyuuga Clan is weaker in this scenario.  It doesn't matter that all Hyuuga's can use the Byakugan, it depends on how well they can use their eyes.



Excellent post, Pkp. But I'd like to say thanks to everyone who's posted, as I have read all you're comments and they are utterly brilliant. 

I liked how you mentioned that the Sharingan is only present within a select few and not all the Uchiha have the Sharingan, hence why I stated that that Madara and Itachi would of had a little more difficulty. True, it doesn't matter that they all have the Byakugan, but depends on how they use it, but having the Byakugan still means alot.



pkp033 said:


> This is utter blasphemy!  Even the biggest Itachi hater would admit that he would poop all over Hiashi and Neji...at the same time!



Oh. Eeeek


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## Stringer Bell (Jun 15, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> I liked how you mentioned that the Sharingan is only present within a select few and not all the Uchiha have the Sharingan, hence why I stated that that Madara and Itachi would of had a little more difficulty. *True, it doesn't matter that they all have the Byakugan, but depends on how they use it, but having the Byakugan still means alot.*



Reread what you just wrote.  

You are preaching quantity over quality about something that "doesn't matter" yet "means alot" at the same time



Bartallen2 said:


> Oh. Eeeek



What does this mean? So you agree that Itachi can poop on Hiashi and Neji simultaneously?


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## Saiko (Jun 15, 2009)

Susano'o is enough to destroy the whole Hyuuga Clan.


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## JjEm (Jun 15, 2009)

Uchiha CLan??
coz i liked byakugan than sharingan!!


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## buffbeast1450 (Jun 15, 2009)

Yea we really only know of the genius family of geniuses in the Uchiha. I mean the hyuuga clan has more members so you also see the week. All the sharigan users we know are genuies you got madera itachi susake kakashi. Then you got sombody like obito who isent a genuies. Then wehn itachi when he took out 3 members of his clan with out even breaking a sweat they are not genuies ethier what people tend to forget is all the shariagans arent that powerfull we just see the story of the best of the best. I belive when the uchiha were a big clan like the hyuuga it would be very similar powerfull and weak members.    ps. i wonder if there was a sharigan and byugukan on the same 3 man squad together


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## Bart (Jun 15, 2009)

pkp033 said:


> Reread what you just wrote.
> 
> You are preaching quantity over quality about something that "doesn't matter" yet "means alot" at the same time



Hey  I'm merely stating that you were correct in that it depends how much skill you have with the Byakugan, considering it requires alot of training whereas the Sharingan is something in which you unlock, though many have not unlocked it in the past. However, having such a thing, like the Byakugan, whether or not you are proficient in wielding it, will still have it's benefits.

It would be intriguing to find out what skill the other members of the Hyuga Clan have with the Byakuagn, especially the likes of Hanabi.



pkp033 said:


> What does this mean? So you agree that Itachi can poop on Hiashi and Neji simultaneously?



Well it was merely a spur of the moment kind of remark  We havien't really seen what Hiashi is capible of except that he was able to use Hakke Kaiten to a remarkable degree within Part II.


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## TheEndingDay (Jun 15, 2009)

I think we can all agree that the Hyuuga powers are more of a defensive moveset, given the function of the Byakugan? Yes?


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## fr3dle (Jun 15, 2009)

i vote hyuga clan,

but the only reason why is because there are only two uchiha left.

50+ Hyuga > 2 Uchiha


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## Euraj (Jun 15, 2009)

Uchiha are prolly stronger. Even if people of the likes of Sasuke and Itachi are extremely rare, they are still members of the clan and as far as we know, there are no Hyuuga that have ever been as strong as they are.


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## Mio (Jun 15, 2009)

fr3dle said:


> i vote hyuga clan,
> 
> but the only reason why is because there are only two uchiha left.
> 
> 50+ Hyuga > 2 Uchiha


Madara can solo them.


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## biar (Jun 15, 2009)

Hyuuga clan's story just went poof after Naruto's and Neji's fight. Again both the majority Uchiha and Hyuga seem to be on par (if Uchiha's clan that uber strong Itachi wouldn't have slaughtered all of them unscathed within a night.) Uchiha's got strong representatives like Itachi however Hyuga also has Hyuga Hiashi, but then again we don't know how good Hiashi is due to his limited fights (only one against sand ninjas). I'd say a draw.


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## MR T (Jun 15, 2009)

What an exelent thread this must be the first one. 
Combat wise Sharingan > Byakugan that what it comes down to, not Uchiha vs Hyuuga.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 15, 2009)

uchiha clan was much better. Aside from the plethora of manga evidence stating it.

you have to realize that just because a hyuuga member has byakugan it doesnt make them a master at jyuuken and the same can be said about the uchiha.

But the sharingan is a better tool than the byakugan which gives the advantage to the uchiha's.


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## R00t_Decision (Jun 15, 2009)

TheEndingDay said:


> I think we can all agree that the Hyuuga powers are more of a defensive moveset, given the function of the Byakugan? Yes?


No. Just well rounded. Kishi barely gives a character like Asuma moveset, making fans think he's less bad ass than he's suppose to be. When Kishi makes his characters to be more bad ass than he actually shows. 

Kishi's is a manipulating bitch.


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## DisgustingIdiot (Jun 15, 2009)

well the uchihas with ms would surely shit all over the strongest hyuugas, i don't see anyway around that

for the rest however i really have no idea who would win


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## Hitomi (Jun 15, 2009)

Uchiha clan sharingan has more power variation imo


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## Topher (Jun 15, 2009)

This isn't the fanfic section.


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## Federer (Jun 15, 2009)

*Hyuuga* Hinata is Naruto's bitch. 

Wood > Rock > Uchiha > Naruto > Hyuuga. 

9000% confirmed.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Anyone with braincells would obviously know that the Uchiha equalled the "unbeatable" Senju, referred many times in the manga, as Konoha's number 1 clan. 

Apparantly they had enough firepower to take on Konoha all by themselves, that's why Itachi was _forced_ to kill his clan with the aid of Madara, in order to maintain peace. 

The Hyuuga are Konoha's bitch, they even sacrifice one of their own, in order to maintain peace, although the cloud tried to kidnapp one of the Hyuuga. 

The Raikage isn't stupid enough to kidnapp one of the Uchiha, they won't listen to the Hokage, and they hell won't listen to the Raikage and shitstomp it's village. 

The rival of the maincharacter is an Uchiha not a filler Hyuuga, there are just tooo many indications that the Uchiha were superior, this "contest" is not even a contest.


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## S H A R D (Jun 15, 2009)

Dark Uchiha said:


> But the sharingan is a better tool than the byakugan which gives the advantage to the uchiha's.



Is it really?? I have to admit, if i was a ninja in their world, i would much rather have the Byakugan than the sharingan. Firstly, people only associate the byakugan's powers with the jyuuken, they never really think of how powerful a shinobi with a variety of jutsus would be if they possessed the byakugan. Secondly, Byakugan weilders will always have the advantage of forseight against their opponent, in the sense that, they can always know the where abouts of their enemy if they need to run away or they need to scout an area. This also means they always have the advantage of trapping their opponent or setting up traps for their opponent. And thirdly, attemps of an abush are virtually impossible, a Byakugan user will always know what tricks are being set up, whether they are traps, or secrets within a jutsu.



Rob` said:


> well the uchihas with ms would surely shit all over the strongest hyuugas, i don't see anyway around that
> 
> for the rest however i really have no idea who would win


But who are the strongest Hyuugas? From the manga we've only seen Hiashi and Neji who is an up and coming. We dont know anything.


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## αce (Jun 15, 2009)

There's a reason why people feared the Uchiha. Raikage freaks out over Sasuke, but lawlz over the Hyuuga.

Lol,Hyuuga.


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## Mai♥ (Jun 15, 2009)

As much as I like the Hyuuga, I think its pretty obvious that the Uchiha clan are stronger.


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## HyuugaProdigy (Jun 15, 2009)

this is a hard 1 to decide. kishi states that the uchiha where considered 2b the strongest clan in konoha, but also states that the hyuuga had konoha's finest KG. this also explains why the uchiha where a clan feared by all, however the cloud village was willing 2 go in2 a costly war with konoha in order 2 gain the KG of the byakugan. i think that in  all fairness the uchiha clan are stated 2b the strongest second only 2 the senju clan, however i still think we haven't seen the full strength of the hyuuga clan. we haven't even yet even seen what their ninjutsu is like yet we know that they do have ninjutsu and are good at it so i think it's unfair 2 say that the hyuuga would b defeated by the uchiha so easily.


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## TienSensei (Jun 15, 2009)

The Uchiha and Senju were the strongest mercenary groups, of course thatd be recognized if they participate in every single battle. To still be standing with their sheer amount of numbers, could be a testament to their ability to withstand any challenge.

Not too mention Itachi soloed the entire clan by his lonesome. There is no manga canon evidence that the Uchiha would shit on anyone and everyone. A select few can, but to not even consider Hiashi or a tempered Neji is blasphemy.


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## Pervy Fox (Jun 15, 2009)

Hyuuga cause there not extict, and cause it has Hinata :risu


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## Bart (Jun 16, 2009)

Topher said:


> This isn't the fanfic section.



Topher, that's a most formidable point you have there, in the link that you provided. When I first read that Chapter i was a little surpised that the Hyuga Clan was not mentioned.

However, there is a possibility that the Hyuga Clan hasn't inhabited Konoha as yet, and the other possible fact that they didn't wish to enter the whole conflict between the Uchiha and Senju. Don't forget that the information was Madara's point of view. Just becuase he says certain things, doesn't mean them to be true.

For example, Jiraiya called Yondaime the most gifted Shinobi that Konoha had produced. Jiraiya knew nothing about Itachi at a young age and his potential, yet he made such a claim.


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## Dokiz1 (Jun 16, 2009)

whats a Hyuuga?


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## Bart (Jun 16, 2009)

Dokiz1 said:


> whats a Hyuuga?



I meant 'Hyuga' but I mispelt it by accident


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 16, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Topher, that's a most formidable point you have there, in the link that you provided. When I first read that Chapter i was a little surpised that the Hyuga Clan was not mentioned.
> 
> *However, there is a possibility that the Hyuga Clan hasn't inhabited Konoha as yet, and the other possible fact that they didn't wish to enter the whole conflict between the Uchiha and Senju. *Don't forget that the information was Madara's point of view. Just becuase he says certain things, doesn't mean them to be true.
> 
> For example, Jiraiya called Yondaime the most gifted Shinobi that Konoha had produced. Jiraiya knew nothing about Itachi at a young age and his potential, yet he made such a claim.



hyuuga is the oldest clan in konoha and also thats the only way for clans to survive back then unless you think they were all farmers


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## Namikaze Naruto (Jun 16, 2009)

Yakkai said:


> Well consider that there's only two Uchiha left, one is an old man and one is gay. So really there isn't an Uchiha clan left. Hyuuga wins by default.



There is too much proof in statement above so no one could counter it.



pkp033 said:


> This is terrible argument and you are overestimating the Hyuuga Clan.  You are right about one thing, there are definitely more Byakugan users that Sharinagan users (since the Sharingan appears in a select few members of the Uchiha Clan). Its doesn't matter how many people in either of the two clans can use their dojutsu.  When it comes to dojutsu the skill of the ninja is based on how well they can use their eyes.
> 
> Example lets just say there is 200 members in the Hyuuga Clan and they have the skill level of Hinata.  The Uchiha has 5 members but all 5 members can use there eyes like Itachi.  Obviously the Hyuuga Clan is weaker in this scenario.  It doesn't matter that all Hyuuga's can use the Byakugan, it depends on how well they can use their eyes.
> 
> ...



You ask too much. One itachi is already God's gift for uchiha, and you ask another 4?OMG,,one itachi is MORE than enough to soloed the entire clan, and you compare it with hinata? You are cheating this game, dude..

Let do some more fair comparison, sasuke's father Vs hinata's one on one, since they are the leader. Who will be the winner? I bet for hiashi..



Shiner said:


> Uchiha stand at the top of the world



Lol's.. Uchiha is going down, unless sasuke change his motafaking mind.


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## TheEndingDay (Jun 16, 2009)

"Who's stronger? Personally, I believe that the Hyuga Clan are stronger becuase they are underrated in comparsion to the Uchiha Clan, but the other factor is that they have both the Byakugan and Jyuuken."

I have to highlight this in OP's post.

He believes the Hyuuga are greater because
1) They're underrated.
2) They have the Byakugan
3) Paired with the Byakugan is their knowledge in Jyuuken.

In a sentence, the Hyuuga Clan is primarily based around Taijutsu, the Jyuuken acting as a martial art revolving around an absolute defense, with the ability to render an opponents' chakra junctions into a section of dams. Through this, they can easily immobilize any opponent. The main, and what we understand as the only Byakugan function, is the ability to see in a full spectrum of vision, up to 395 degrees, save for a blind spot. They also have the function of having telescopic focus, able to see great distances away. Their primary function in their ocular upgrade is one of surveillance, ideal for scouting and recon. They could easily spot an ambush miles away, with the ability to visualize the battlefield before taking any action.

My second response.
1) This is irrelevant. Being an underdog doesn't give anything, ever, the edge in decision making in the Naruto Forums.
2) & 3) The Byakugan is an amazing upgrade, but it can't hold up against the long-range attack capabilities of the Sharingan. Not only can the Sharingan user employ a variety of moves, in its upgraded state, but it has the ability to "predict" an opponent's movements. This is one of the best counters you could have against a taijutsu-specialized opponent. Of similar use would be their ability to copy the style of their opponent's taijutsu, though in this case probably not to the exact proficiency. We've seen Sharingan jack taijutsu, but it was hardly anything special. Through Kakashi's use of the Sharingan, he was literally able to hypnotize his opponents into executing likely attack patterns, giving him the edge.

Unfortunately, all Uchiha are known for their proficiency in Katon ninjutsu, and if used correctly, one wonders how long a Hyuuga could defend from this. It would be a matter of chakra expenditure. 

I resubmit my point that the Byakugan isn't meant for offensive attacking. It's a pure firewall of defense, and if pressed to a certain point in battle, taijutsu and almost absolute vision of one's surroundings can only really go so far.

Not to mention the sheer possibility that the Sharingan user in question might have decent genjutsu.


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## Bart (Jun 16, 2009)

Dark Uchiha said:


> hyuuga is the oldest clan in konoha and also thats the only way for clans to survive back then unless you think they were all farmers



Hey Dark Uchiha 

Firstly, the Hyuga Clan is not the oldest Clan, but among the oldest. There are many other Clans within Konoha. True, but not all Clans were as such though.


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## MS81 (Jun 16, 2009)

I wish that Kishi would make a Taijutsu Uchiha and Ninjutsu specialist Hyuuga!!!


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## D-7 (Jun 16, 2009)

Jounin Hyuuga vs jounin Uchiha with normal sharingan (3 tomoes) = Uchiha win

2 Jounin Hyuuga vs jounin Uchiha with normal sharingan = Hyuuga win

Jounin Hyuuga vs jounin Uchiha without sharingan = Hyuuga win



All Hyuugas develop Byakugan with of course power difference in terms of level, however they ALL got it & is a clan of good reputation. 

The elite of the Uchiha's, which I do think stand for atleast 1/3 part of the fairly large Uchiha clan possesses the Sharingan. Just like with the Byakugan the Sharingan comes in different powerlevels depending on the user. 
Let's not remember that Uchiha's without Sharingan are very skilled ninjas aswell.

If the two clans would clash in an open battlefield during Part 1-time without the whole murder-Uchiha-scheme Itachi had going on making him fight along with his clan against the Hyuuga - I believe the Uchiha would end up winning the battle.

Hyuuga
    * Very efficient & well developed close-combat skills & unique Taijutsu
    * Can shut off the enemy's chakra circulatory-system = enemy out
    * Random Juuken/Byakugan jutsu's the skilled jounins & elders of the clan
       has developed through out the years.
    * Good automatic Genjutsu-defence because of the Byakugan's ability
       to see chakra. Even through hallucinations it can still see the chakra
       off the enemy & follow his movements, etc. 
     * NOTE: THESE ARE ALL DEFAULT PROPERTIES & ABILITIES OF A HYUUGA
            We can only speculate about there exisitng geniuses of Kakashi-level
            for example within the clan during this time.

Uchiha 
     * bla bla whatever got tired of thinking. Uchiha wins in the end because of
        the abilities of the Sharingan, battle prowess & features of the clan
        as whole. Geniuses like Shisui, Itachi, other promising young talents +
        the more experienced middle-age part off clan being advised by Uchiha
        Elders. WATCHU GONNA DO WHEN SHISUI & ITACHI IS AFTER U?


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## The777Man (Jun 16, 2009)

At their full power, the Uchiha Clan was said to be the strongest clan in the world along with the Senjuu. The Hyuuga's were never even considered the strongest clan in Konoha until its 2 most powerful members became Missing-Nin and the only one left in the village was Chuunin Level. Besides, in a 1 on 1 match, no Hyuuga could defeat Itachi, Madara, or Sasuke. It's just common sense.


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## D-7 (Jun 16, 2009)

THE ULTIMATE said:


> Besides, in a 1 on 1 match, no Hyuuga could defeat Itachi, Madara, or Sasuke. It's just common sense.



I Believe it's a 50/50 go between current Sasuke & Hizashi/Hiashi whoever the one currently lives is.


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## αce (Jun 16, 2009)

There's a reason why Senju and Uchiha were feared as the strongest.
No one gave a shit if Hyuuga attacked them.

This "debate" isn't a debate. The sharingan outclasses the byakugan in almost every way.

The hyuugas base their fighting style off of close range. Sharingan gives the user the ability to read movements. Close range is automatically negated.


And considering Itachi and Madara could've solo'd the hyuuga clan means alot.


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## Bart (Jun 16, 2009)

THE ULTIMATE said:


> At their full power, the Uchiha Clan was said to be the strongest clan in the world along with the Senjuu. The Hyuuga's were never even considered the strongest clan in Konoha until its 2 most powerful members became Missing-Nin and the only one left in the village was Chuunin Level. Besides, in a 1 on 1 match, no Hyuuga could defeat Itachi, Madara, or Sasuke. It's just common sense.



Firstly, I'd like to thank TheEndingDay, D-7, The Ultimate and MS81 for you're recent contributions to this thread on this page.

True, the Uchiha Clan were at that stage. We don't know alot about the Hyuga Clan in terms of the past, only when the Raikage wished to obtain the Byakugan. We also don't know alot about the other Hyuga Clan members.


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## αce (Jun 16, 2009)

Lol, even the academy students were in awe when Uchihas walked through.

Sharingan gives more combat ability, while the byakugan gives more scouting ability.
Combat wise, sharingan rapes the byakugan.



It tells you a lot when the Hyuuga prodigy was beaten by an punch.


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## Bart (Jun 16, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Lol, even the academy students were in awe when Uchihas walked through.
> 
> Sharingan gives more combat ability, while the byakugan gives more scouting ability. Combat wise, sharingan rapes the byakugan. It tells you a lot when the Hyuuga prodigy was beaten by an punch.



Uchiha's? You mean Sasuke. I was under the impression that they were in awe due to the fact Sasuke was the only known survivor of the Uchiha Clan, to them.

Neji beaten by one punch? Not exactly, considering that the battle was not to the death and Neji was not aiming for Naruto's heart or head. Neji was overconfident, but I liked how you refered to the Chunin Examinations rather than the SRA and Part II.

You do recall what Hiruzen says about Neji?


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## Stringer Bell (Jun 16, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> You do recall what Hiruzen says about Neji?



Who cares what he said.  The genius of the Hyuuga Clan is nothing compared to the genius of the Uchiha Clan.


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## HyuugaProdigy (Jun 16, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Topher, that's a most formidable point you have there, in the link that you provided. When I first read that Chapter i was a little surpised that the Hyuga Clan was not mentioned.
> 
> However, there is a possibility that the Hyuga Clan hasn't inhabited Konoha as yet, and the other possible fact that they didn't wish to enter the whole conflict between the Uchiha and Senju. Don't forget that the information was Madara's point of view. Just becuase he says certain things, doesn't mean them to be true.
> 
> For example, Jiraiya called Yondaime the most gifted Shinobi that Konoha had produced. Jiraiya knew nothing about Itachi at a young age and his potential, yet he made such a claim.



when i read chapter 398 i thought a lot about the what the hyuuga where doing 80 years ago. if u look at the clan symbols on page 17 u will see that there is no symbol 4 the hyuuga clan anywhere 
Quick Medical Treatment/Skill 
however we also know that it's cannon that the hyuuga are the oldest and most respected clan in konoha which means that they must have been there b4 the uchiha joined with the senju 2 create the hidden leaf.
Quick Medical Treatment/Skill

we also know that the senju clan where originally not a clan "per se," but a collection of talented geniuses formed in2 an organized fighting unit. 

*(taken from databook 3)
Senju symbol
Caption: The Senju clan of the Forest
Text: Dreaded as "the thousand-handed clan", they gathered prodigies in all kinds of ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu techniques. The first among them was Senju Hashirama of the Mokuton. In a world of belligerent countries, he's a legendary shinobi who pushed the way to the zenith to extreme heights.*

IMO i think that the hyuuga clan where probably the 1st of the small groups assimilated in2 the the senju way before the union of the senju and the uchiha roughly 70-60 years ago.thi would explain why they are the oldest and most respected of the clans in konoha and also why there's no mention of them in chapter 398.


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## N120 (Jun 16, 2009)

in terms of clan vs clan then its hyuuga, they are born with the byakugan and dont need their kekkai genkai to be awakened.

but in terms of individuals from each clan, then the uchiha have produced some of the best fighters in konoha (that we know of) like itachi, his friend i forget his name and madara, who could slaughter a significant number of hyugas solo in any mismatched contest.


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## Leon (Jun 16, 2009)

The average Hyuuga would defeat the average Uchiha.

However the most powerful members of the Uchiha are in another league compared to Hyuuga.

I would think this to be obvious.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 16, 2009)

HyuugaProdigy said:


> when i read chapter 398 i thought a lot about the what the hyuuga where doing 80 years ago. if u look at the clan symbols on page 17 u will see that there is no symbol 4 the hyuuga clan anywhere
> Link removed
> however we also know that it's cannon that the hyuuga are the oldest and most respected clan in konoha which means that they must have been there b4 the uchiha joined with the senju 2 create the hidden leaf.
> Link removed
> ...



alot of stretching you did


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## ソラのシン-사마 (Jun 16, 2009)

My god man, do you not see what you've done?

You've just opened the door for Flame-Ware Iraq. May Allah have mercy on your soul

____________________________________________

On topic.

Sharingan 3 Tomoe is better than Byakugan in my eyes.

Seeing after images, copying Jutsu like nothing, it's the shit. Again we've seen 100 times more Sharingan than Byakugan so it's not really fair.

I venture Byakugan will enter the story fairly soon, I mean they both have direct ties. One is for Greed, the other is Divine.


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## olehoncho (Jun 16, 2009)

Well, one of them is still a clan, this makes the argument a little moot at this point.

Copying Juuken with Sharingan is doubly problematic.  One it requires the sharingan, which exists in varying degrees amongst the members of Uchiha.  Hyuuga on the other hand seem to be born with their eyes requiring a simple activation, and the chakra demands of Byakugan seem to be less than those of the Sharingan.
Second, Juuken is pointless if you can't see the... whatever they're called, Chakra points.


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## Romanticide (Jun 16, 2009)

Well, both are pretty messed up, but Byakugan doesn't leave the user blind. And most of the Hyuuga seen are pretty nice,and not conceited. Plus their taijutsu cannot be copied.


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## Kumomaru (Jun 16, 2009)

clearly the clan that isn't an endangered species 

In all seriousness Hyuuga are better 1 vs many, Uchiha are better 1 vs 1. (exceptions may occur)

We have to take into account that not all Hyuuga know the Main family's Hakkeshio Kaiten or 68 palms (forget the Japanese for it xD), and there's only been five people we know of to have Mangekyou. 

So take away those items and we have an amazing scouter to which there will be very little if any surprises against many foes, and a tactician who can read your every move and counter your jutsus. 

The jyuuken(sp?) is almost impossible to counter and is insanely deadly. There's almost no defense against an attack that goes through into your organs and vitals. The Sharingan's genjutsu is effortless and spammable against any single foe it would be intensely dangerous. 

It definitely comes down to the individual and their skill with their traits... 

Neji vs Sasuke would be epic....


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## boohead (Jun 16, 2009)

uchiha are clearly stronger, but hyuuga are more fun and better to watch in a fight.


lets see, hax staring contests vs real fighting.


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## GangWarlord (Jun 16, 2009)

Normally I wouldn't like the Hyuga, but the fact that they have Hinata makes it a no-contest.

Hinata would rapestomp all the Uchihas.


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## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 16, 2009)

if you remove madara, then i think the hyuuga are stronger.

IMO the average hyuuga ninja is better than the average uchiha ninja. And the skill gap put up by the uchiha geniuses wouldnt be enough to cut it.


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

I say that the Hyuuga had the stronger clan and the Uchiha had the strongest individual. The Byakugan would make it much to hard to take out the entire clan and we don't know how well genjutsu would even work on a Hyuuga. Another point that I would like to make is the underestimation of Hiashi. Everyone said that he was weak and that the nin from the land of thunder was just fodder, yet we have learned that the land of thunder is very strong and he took out their number 1 jounin.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Windwaker said:


> if you remove madara, then i think the hyuuga are stronger.
> 
> IMO the average hyuuga ninja is better than the average uchiha ninja. And the skill gap put up by the uchiha geniuses wouldnt be enough to cut it.



Very good comment, Windwaker. And thanks for your awesome comment, Hamaru.

Windwaker, I believe that the Hyuga far more genius than the likes of the Uchiha, considering that unlike the Uchiha then don't unlock their abilities through certain circumstances, but have to train relentlessly.

Do you remember what Zetsu said? It was about the Sharingan, but I believe this statement is very much closer to that of the Hyuga Clan and the training of the Byakugan.

"It's just another tool some ninja can use. A tool is only as powerful as the shinobi who uses it. An expert with a stone, can still beat a novice with a shuriken. All he needs is more skill and more power." - Zetsu, Chapter 388, page 15


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## Namikaze Naruto (Jun 17, 2009)

I agree with OP idea, and i appreciate bartallen2 effort to make this thread alive.
I myself considering hyuuga as the stronger clan than uchihas. And the hyuugas didn't seem to love the war so it will be one possibility why their name wasn't that famous back then like senju and uchiha.

Hyuugas member is bigger than uchihas, and they are united even in some bad way, which will be the one that naruto changes after he become the hokage.
Yeah, some uchihas prodigy is owning, but how much sasuke-itachi-madara you can expect to be born within uchihas? That was pure a gift from the God. Without three of them, hyuuga is no match for uchiha. Tough, i don't really know about uchihas power. But, i certainly doubt that even itachi+madara can soloed entire hyuuga clan like they did at uchihas.

Hyuuga clan is stronger than uchiha clan.


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## Namikaze Naruto (Jun 17, 2009)

I agree with the OP and i appreciate his effort to make this thread alive.
I think hyuuga clan is stronger than uchiha clan due to their power and their way of think. First, the hyuuga didn't seem have many prodigy like neji, but their power relatively similar thus will strengthen their overall power. On the other hand, uchiha have alot of prodigy like sasuke, itachi, and madara. Without them, uchiha clan is no match for hyuuga. How much prodigy could you expect to pop up? Not much, isn't it? So, hyuuga will win by my judging.


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## Susano-o (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> *Please read before posting or voting.*
> 
> Who's stronger? Personally, *I believe that the Hyuga Clan are stronger becuase they are underrated* in comparsion to the Uchiha Clan, but the other factor is that they have both the Byakugan and Jyuuken.
> 
> ...



Your reason for thinking one is stronger than the other is because you think one is underrated? That doesn't make sense (logically).


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## Z.:M:.Z (Jun 17, 2009)

Hyuuga, fuck all them Uchiha bastards.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Susano-o said:


> Your reason for thinking one is stronger than the other is because you think one is underrated? That doesn't make sense (logically).



Such a claim are neither in the realm of logical, but within subjectivity  There are many variables, some unlisted, that I find, personally, magnetic in the Hyuga Clan.

In regard to you're statement, I always tend to approach the underdog placement, considering that most would have went for the Uchiha Clan. Futhermore, the term underrated also, for me,  included unknownness as we do not know of alot of other prominent Hyuga Clan members, unlike that of the Uchiha Clan.


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## Susano-o (Jun 17, 2009)

not knowing anything about A and knowing about B does not mean A > B


it's like saying we don't know if God exists, so he exists
we also don't know if invisible leprechauns spray paint my anus with semen when I sleep, but that doesn't mean they do


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## HyuugaProdigy (Jun 17, 2009)

Dark Uchiha said:


> alot of stretching you did



true, but that's why i said it's IMO not cannon. the reason why my opinon is that the hyuuga where assimulated in2 the senju is because of the cannon data in the manga and the databooks.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Susano-o said:


> not knowing anything about A and knowing about B does not mean A > B
> 
> it's like saying we don't know if God exists, so he exists
> we also don't know if invisible leprechauns spray paint my anus with semen when I sleep, but that doesn't mean they do



Hey, Susano-o  Thanks for your post. True, and I certainly agree with you there.

Kakashi himself stated that the Byakugan surpasses the Sharingan in terms of insight. Theoretically, the Hyuga may have not been concerned with the affairs of the Uchiha and Senju as, naturally, they would have been monitoring the Branch Family. Afterall, the Hyuga Clan was and still is a very secretive and proud clan.

Futhermore, I stand by what I said earlier. If Madara and Itachi took on the Hyuga Clan then it would be more difficult than compared to the Uchiha Clan. Why? Because against a true Sharingan master, Genjutsu is almost useless. Ninjutsu is also useless due to the fact all your techniques will be copied. The only possible thing which could work against the Sharingan is the Taijutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 17, 2009)

Uchiha clan takes this without a doubt. Hyuugan clan can be superior taijutsu users, but thats it. Uchiha clan is superior in overall.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> The only possible thing which could work against the Sharingan is the Taijutsu.



You're joking, right?


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> You're joking, right?



Against a true Sharingan master, with the intent to kill of course, possibly so. When I said Taijutsu I was being a little vague. With the combination of Gentle Fist and the Byakugan of course.


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## TheEndingDay (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> You're joking, right?



Taka, you are a gentleman and a scholar. I couldn't agree more. 

I can't begin to understand how people could think that the Sharingan is weak against taijutsu. They're probably basing this off the Lee fight with Sasuke, of course, but my God, isn't that so irrelevant these days?

But it appears this is more of a subjective "Why I like one or the other" clan dueling thread.

The lapse of truths, and invocation of pure bias tends to underline that. Gotta say though, Taka, you just made my lulz.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Against a true Sharingan master, with the intent to kill of course, possibly so. When I said Taijutsu I was being a little vague. With the combination of Gentle Fist and the Byakugan of course



Even if those things were added, Hyuugas fighting style is to straight forward. There attacks and there stance are very linear, not unorthodox at all. Anyone who can adeptly use the sharingan would have no problem reading their movements.


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## A.E.G.I.S (Jun 17, 2009)

Hyuuga have been retconned into fodder.
The genius of the clan is kinda worthless compared to the top tier (Naruto Sasuke Akatsuki) and the clan's symbol wasn't among the symbols of the major clans in Madara's story ...

Now, it's everything for the Nara. Shikamaru is the only rookie to hold his own against Akatuski bar the main characters, his father is the head jounin, they own land (a freaking forest) and their logo was close of the Uchiha and senju on that pic. (while we were led to believe the Nara were just Shika and his parents in Pt1)


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## Evil (Jun 17, 2009)

It's painfully obvious that the Uchiha were the strongest of Konoha, Chiyo reveals that other ninja's are told not to face an Uchiha one on one. During the Chuunin exam they actually break the rules and postpone Sasuke's fight because they want to see the last of the Uchiha's fight. Kakashi during the Gaiden says that he heard all the Uchiha were elite ninja's.

Madara's description of the past is that the Uchiha and the Senju were the strongest, and that they reigned in all the other clans with that strength. And Itachi says that the Uchiha were the police of Konoha and only superior shinobi can enforce the law on other shinobi.

Uchiha were the strongest, since there isn't an Uchiha clan in Konoha currently though, then the Hyuga are the strongest.

Though if Sasuke returned, the Uchiha would be the strongest again.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Evil said:


> *Though if Sasuke returned, the Uchiha would be the strongest again*.



Lol, made my day.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Even if those things were added, Hyuugas fighting style is to straight forward. There attacks and there stance are very linear, not unorthodox at all. Anyone who can adeptly use the sharingan would have no problem reading their movements.



True, but the Hyuga's style of Taijutsu is not at all linear, if you take into account Gentle Fist and Hakke Kaiten. Plus, I don't think there is anything linear about Neji's various Gentle Fist deviations.

The Byakugan's insight would be rather useful within this battle. You'd have to be skilled and fast enough to change your movements so that Sharingan wouldn't have the time to make a second "prediction" of the movement. Simply being faster than the user is enough to make Sharingan's observation fail.

Within Part I, Naruto was charging towards Sasuke in a linear motion. Therefore, I believe the Sharingan needs to see you coming to predict your movements. If you appear out of nowhere in front of the user, I doubt Sharingan has enough time to acknowledge your movements and therefore predict it.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 17, 2009)

idk it just seems arbitrary to argue what the manga has clearly decided by kishi words.

the retelling of the past puts it down clearly.

If one nation hired the senju there rival would hire the uchiha. Two clans declared the most powerful.

and when the story of the uchiha clan was told, you here of them putting down other clans to make there way to the top. the only time we hear hyuuga the strongest clan in konoha is when there is no more uchiha clan in konoha..

one ninja does not make a clan. hence why sasuke say "the revival of the uchiha clan"


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

^Yeah, but Sasuke>Hyuuga clan and Madara>Hyuuga clan.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Dark Uchiha said:


> idk it just seems arbitrary to argue what the manga has clearly decided by kishi words.
> 
> the retelling of the past puts it down clearly. If one nation hired the senju there rival would hire the uchiha. Two clans declared the most powerful.
> 
> and when the story of the uchiha clan was told, you here of them putting down other clans to make there way to the top. the only time we hear hyuuga the strongest clan in konoha is when there is no more uchiha clan in konoha.. one ninja does not make a clan. hence why sasuke say "the revival of the uchiha clan"



Hey Dark Uchiha. I'm putting fourth such a point due to the fact that the Hyuga Clan weren't mentioned, and the omission of such a thing on Kishimoto's part may indeed be due to other reasons.

As I stated, does Madara's statement of the only person he feared and respected being Shodia mean that Yondaime is not as great? Don't forget that the statement regarding the Uchiha and Senju was Madara's view and almost memoir of what had occured.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> ^Yeah, but Sasuke>Hyuuga clan and Madara>Hyuuga clan.



yea but not a clan anymore, but it is still sad that neji is the strongest hyuuga


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Dark Uchiha said:


> yea but not a clan anymore, but it is still sad that neji is the strongest hyuuga



Lol, the hyuuga prodigy was beaten by a punch.

Yea, Neji being the strongest destroyed any Hyuuga hype that they had going for em. If they had any at all.



Senju was the only match for Uchiha. Uchiha was the only match for Senju. If you're going by manga logic, and you should, then hyuuga were no match for the uchiha clan.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Hey Dark Uchiha. I'm putting fourth such a point due to the fact that the Hyuga Clan weren't mentioned, and the omission of such a thing on Kishimoto's part may indeed be due to other reasons.



kishi didnt mention any other clan in the past either?
Are we to speculate that nara or akamachi are stronger than the uchiha?
When in the telling of the past that honor was bestowed mutally on the senju and uchiha?
and the reference to other clans were that they were defeated if they engaged the uchiha


> As I stated, does Madara's statement of the only person he feared and respected being Shodia mean that Yondaime is not as great? Don't forget that the statement regarding the Uchiha and Senju was Madara's view and almost memoir of what had occured.


it doesnt mean that yondaime wasnt great it just means he didnt fear him. This is evident that yondaime himself couldnt do anything against madara.

itachi gave the same view. Kakashi gave that same view. Chiyo point to that same view Thats two people cementing that point.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Hey Dark Uchiha. I'm putting fourth such a point due to the fact that the Hyuga Clan weren't mentioned, and the omission of such a thing on Kishimoto's part may indeed be due to other reasons.
> 
> As I stated, does Madara's statement of the only person he feared and respected being Shodia mean that Yondaime is not as great? Don't forget that the statement regarding the Uchiha and Senju was Madara's view and almost memoir of what had occured.



It doesn't mean Yondaime wasn't great. It's just that Madara>Yondaime.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Dark Uchiha said:


> yea but not a clan anymore, but it is still sad that neji is the strongest hyuuga



Why is it sad? Is it sad that Neji, being a Branch Family member, developed the Byakugan with no such training or intervention from the Main Family? Basically what he did was utterly amazing and incredible.

It would be similar to someone learning and mastering Calculus on their own without having prior knowledge of Algebra or Mathematics at that as a whole.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Why is it sad? Is it sad that Neji, being a Branch Family member, developed the Byakugan with no such training from the Main Family? Basically what he did was utterly amazing and incredible.
> 
> It would be similar to someone learning and mastering Calculus without having prior knowledge of Algebra or Mathematics at that as a whole.



Just because someone accomplished something doesn't mean that them being the best at it isn't sad.

The fact that the Hyuuga has no elders or shinobi that can match Neji means Uchiha would destroy them.

There really isn't a "debate" here. Kishi has made it painfully obvious that Uchiha>Hyuuga.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Just because someone accomplished something doesn't mean that them being the best at it isn't sad.
> 
> The fact that the Hyuuga has no elders or shinobi that can match Neji means Uchiha would destroy them.
> 
> There really isn't a "debate" here. Kishi has made it painfully obvious that Uchiha>Hyuuga.



But, that's merely Hiashi's point on Neji. It doesn't exactly mean that Neji is the most powerful member of the Hyuga Clan. 

Jiraiya made the point of Yondaime being the most gifted and powerful Ninja within Konoha, yet Jiraiya had not seen Shodia, Nidaime or presumably Hiruzen at their prime, also he didn't seen what Itachi was capible or too what Nagato had to shown when he made that statement.

Shisui was presumed the strongest member of the Uchiha Clan, yet Itachi killed him. We have seen only a few of the Hyuga.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jun 17, 2009)

> Shisui was presumed the strongest member of the Uchiha Clan, yet Itachi killed him. We have seen only a few of the Hyuga.



That's never been said. You read a lot of Leafninja huh


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> But, that's merely Hiashi's point on Neji. It doesn't exactly mean that Neji is the most powerful member of the Hyuga Clan.
> 
> Jiraiya made the point of Yondaime being the most gifted and powerful Ninja within Konoha, yet Jiraiya had not seen Shodia, Nidaime or presumably Hiruzen at their prime, also he didn't seen what Itachi was capible or too what Nagato had to shown when he made that statement.
> 
> Shisui was presumed the strongest member of the Uchiha Clan, yet Itachi killed him. We have seen only a few of the Hyuga.



1) Jiraiya obviously had bias towards Minato
2) Hokage are on a different class then normal shinobi, debates can be made
3) If Neji is considered around the level of top Hyuuga, it's still sad.

Also, it was never confirmed that Shisui was top of the Uchiha clan. And I think you're forgetting Itachi had help from Madara.


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## Sniffers (Jun 17, 2009)

If I remember correctly, Madara said the two major clans were Senju and Uchiha. Notice that Hyuga aren't noted. So it seems to me that anything other than Uchiha > Hyuga is fanfic.


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## gallantJiraiya (Jun 17, 2009)

im pretty sure that sharingan is stronger then byakugan but , well they havent fought eachother yet so what if byakugan negates the genjutsu of sharingan and what if there is more releases to byakugan they just havent shown yet why would the other eye techs only have one stage and the sharingan three or more


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> That's never been said. You read a lot of Leafninja huh



Leafninja? Personally, I only use and acquire my Naruto knowledge from Manga, or acquire it on these forums if I had not obtained it through Manga. As Itachi would say, "It's unwise to judge others".

I admit that I the fault was mine; I had meant to say 'gifted'.

"He was feared as Shushu of the Mirage, and one of the most talented Uchiha... He was someone who'd do any mission for the Clan. I doubt a man like him would leave something like this behind and die." - Naruto Chapter 222, Page 7.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> 1) Jiraiya obviously had bias towards Minato
> 2) Hokage are on a different class then normal shinobi, debates can be made
> 3) If Neji is considered around the level of top Hyuuga, it's still sad.
> 
> Also, it was never confirmed that Shisui was top of the Uchiha clan. And I think you're forgetting Itachi had help from Madara.



Yeah, certainly he must have, if he had not mentioned the other great Shinobi of Konoha. I agree that Hokage are on a different class. Why is it sad that Neji is considered around the level of such?

As I stated to Sasuke Bateman, the word in which I had meant to use was 'gifted'.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jun 17, 2009)

Heh you got strongest out of that. 

 

Any who let the denial continue....


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> Heh you got strongest out of that.  Any who let the denial continue....



Yeah, certainly did. If you look on previous topics on this page, I used the words gifted combined with powerful for Yondaime and Neji, and the mistake came when bringing up Shisui of the Mirage. Simple mistake.


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## Mikaveli (Jun 17, 2009)

Lol why is this even being debated, seriously?


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Super Mike said:


> Lol why is this even being debated, seriously?



That's what I'm wondering.

The author of the story has flat out shown and said who is the strongest.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> That's what I'm wondering.
> 
> The author of the story has flat out shown and said who is the strongest.



But yet Kishimoto put fourth the idea of the Byakugan surpassing the Sharingan in terms of insight. Plus, as I said previously, not all of the Uchiha Clan gain the Sharingan, whereas all members of the Hyuga Clan gain theirs at birth.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> But yet Kishimoto put fourth the idea of the Byakugan surpassing the Sharingan in terms of insight. Plus, as I said previously, not all of the Uchiha Clan gain the Sharingan, whereas all members of the Hyuga Clan gain theirs at birth.



Not having the sharingan doesn't mean anything. Sasuke graduated with straight A's and was the rookie of the year, prior to gaining the sharingan. His marks were better than Shikamaru's.

Also, being born with the byakugan doesn't mean they're automatically elite with it. They have to train.


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## Trivub (Jun 17, 2009)

they are stronger because they are underrated? that doesn't sound right. 

anyway, no they are not stronger. Yes hyuuga clan is older and more noble but wasn't it stated that Uchiha and Senju were the top? in while reading the main story, I get the idea Uchiha is a lot stronger. Yes, Sasuke, Itachi and Madara are exceptions, but where are Hyuuga's fighters? Hanabi, Hinata, Hinata's guard, the guy from the barrier team, all are or are as weak as: fodder. Only Hyuuga's worth something are Neji and Hiashi. We don't know hiashi's full powers but i guess he's pretty elite, although not legendary, like the uchiha's.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Not having the sharingan doesn't mean anything. Sasuke graduated with straight A's and was the rookie of the year, prior to gaining the sharingan. His marks were better than Shikamaru's.
> 
> Also, being born with the byakugan doesn't mean they're automatically elite with it. They have to train.



Exactly, that's the point in which I had made previously, as I tend to use Zetsu's insightful quote to make such a point. I can't see a correlation between intelligence and the use of a Kekkei Genkai. True, Sasuke was rather impressive at such an age, but don't forget that Shikamaru was very lazy during that period, as stated by Asuma.

You've had opponents without Kekkei Genkai who've manged to challenge the wielders of such, take Yondaime, Shodia, Killer Bee, Sarutobi, Rock Lee, Gaara, Sasori, Naruto, Deidara, Kiba, and Kankuro.

I agree entirely, it's how you train you're bloodline ability that counts.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Trivub said:


> they are stronger because they are underrated? that doesn't sound right.



Hey, Trivub 

As I stated to Susano-o, I always tend to gravitate towards the underdog placement, considering that most would have went for the Uchiha Clan within this thread, as many did. The term underrated, for me, included the vagueness in explanation and appearance of the prominent Hyuga Clan members.


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## Mikaveli (Jun 17, 2009)

Yeah. Uchiha and Senju were the top two. Hyuuga were not even mentioned. I guess thats it.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> But yet Kishimoto put fourth the idea of the Byakugan surpassing the Sharingan in terms of insight. Plus, as I said previously, not all of the Uchiha Clan gain the Sharingan, whereas all members of the Hyuga Clan gain theirs at birth.



yes in terms of insight because the sharingan can not see the tenketsu.
That makes no difference in battle.
What advantage does that give one in battle being able to see tenketsu when a uchiha  or any other ninja doesnt use jyuuken.
Its like telling a track and field star that he cant play baseball.

Just because i can see 360 degrees does that grant me the ability dodge the attack?
its the same analogy with lee and sasuke when even though sasuke can see lees next movement he could not dodge because he lacked the speed to move.

The point is no different.

The manga has decreed it. just like we try and make opinionated threads about such and such about so and so using manga pages.

senju clan and uchiha clan were the strongest clan
itachi said it
kakashi said it
madara said it
chiyo made statements to the degree of how terrifying they are.

Are you trying to attack the validity of what itachi, kakashi and madara said?

Are you trying to say "nah madara was wrong"? "it was the hyuuga that the uchiha were really rivals with"?


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Dark Uchiha said:


> yes in terms of insight because the sharingan cant not see the tenketsu. That makes no difference in battle.
> What advantage does that give one in battle being able to see tenketsu when a uchiha or any other ninja doesnt use jyuuken.
> Its like telling a track and field star that he cant play baseball.



Hey, Dark Uchiha. Brilliant post as always 

The insight point is rather vague by Kakashi, however the definition of insight is 'the ability to see clearly and intuitively into the nature of a complex person, situation, or subject' or 'the ability of somebody to understand and find solutions to his or her personal problems'

The ability to see one's Tenketsu has it's advantages when combined with Gentle Fist, that is if the Hyuga member is able to preform such precison that is.



Dark Uchiha said:


> Just because i can see 360 degrees does that grant me the ability dodge the attack? its the same analogy with lee and sasuke when even though sasuke can see lees next movement he could not dodge because he lacked the speed to move. The point is no different.



No it certainly doesn't, but the ability to sense all offenses within a specific area and to see the inner coins does give one the advantage of preparation, that is if that Byakugan wielder is relatively skilled of course.



Dark Uchiha said:


> The manga has decreed it. just like we try and make opinionated threads about such and such about so and so using manga pages.
> 
> senju clan and uchiha clan were the strongest clan. itachi said it. kakashi said it. madara said it. chiyo made statements to the degree of how terrifying they are.
> 
> Are you trying to do is attack the validity of what itachi, kakashi and madara said? Are you trying to say nah madara was wrong? it was the hyuuga that the uchiha were really rivals with?



I'm not questioning the powerfulness of either the Senju or the Uchiha Clan, neither the validity, I'm merely wishing to initiate people's opinions on the matter and possibility of such Clans colliding.

But on a side note, would you yourself be questioning the validity of Kishimoto when he put the reference of Jyuuken being the strongest force within Konoha or the Hyuga being the strongest Clan in Konoha?


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Uchiha clan takes this without a doubt. Hyuugan clan can be superior taijutsu users, but thats it. Uchiha clan is superior in overall.



Not really. The Uchiha fighting style is not the same for each member. Sasuke used his sharingan mainly for taijutsu and he gained more ninjutsu from his training with Oro and Kakashi. Kakashi on the other hand (though not a Uchiha) used his sharingan to learn more Ninjutsu. So in other words, if the Uchiha fighting is one that uses more taijutsu than Nin jutsu, he goes down. If he uses Ninjutsu it would help him, but that does not guarantee any kind of win since the Hyuuga can cut/destroy attacks made of chackra. Nehi has shown this ability in the fight with Kidomaru and in the fight with Kisame's clone. Genjutsu may be a non factor for all we know so that isn't even worth talking about.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> But on a side note, would you yourself be questioning the validity of Kishimoto when he put the reference of Jyuuken being the strongest force within Konoha or the Hyuga being the strongest Clan in Konoha?



I dont test the validty of what the author says but try to understand of what he meant by what he said.

i.e madara was defeated by shodai.
i dont dispute the fact of madara being defeated, but try to understand "how" and speculate the reason how he lost. Was it 1 vs 1 or did some konoha members help, list can go on and on.

Also i believe it was said "jyuuken being the strongest taijutsu style in konoha".
and about the hyuuga strongest clan in konoha whats there to dispute.

Uchiha are no longer a clan in konoha after the massacre. In which the comment was said many yrs after them being wiped to sasuke.

Its one of his ambitions after all the revival of the uchiha clan.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 17, 2009)

Hamaru said:


> Not really. The Uchiha fighting style is not the same for each member. Sasuke used his sharingan mainly for taijutsu and he gained more ninjutsu from his training with Oro and Kakashi. Kakashi on the other hand (though not a Uchiha) used his sharingan to learn more Ninjutsu. So in other words, if the Uchiha fighting is one that uses more taijutsu than Nin jutsu, he goes down. If he uses Ninjutsu it would help him, but that does not guarantee any kind of win since the Hyuuga can cut/destroy attacks made of chackra. Nehi has shown this ability in the fight with Kidomaru and in the fight with Kisame's clone. Genjutsu may be a non factor for all we know so that isn't even worth talking about.



alot of mischaracterization and the logic you used in this instance is questionable.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Dark Uchiha said:


> I dont test the validty of what the author says but try to understand of what he meant by what he said.
> 
> i.e madara was defeated by shodai.
> i dont dispute the fact of madara being defeated, but try to understand "how" and speculate the reason how he lost. Was it 1 vs 1 or did some konoha members help, list can go on and on.



Ah, intriguing, that's indeed a rather good motive. On a side note, regarding the defeat of Madara, there is stong proof, which I view somewhat incontrovertable, that Madara was defated in 1 vs 1 by Shodia's usage of a Katana.

It is rather evident, especially with the quote made by Madara himself,  Anyone guessing we'll see something similar to this?



Dark Uchiha said:


> Also i believe it was said "jyuuken being the strongest taijutsu style in konoha". and about the hyuuga strongest clan in konoha whats there to dispute.



Ok kk I see 



Dark Uchiha said:


> Uchiha are no longer a clan in konoha after the massacre. In which the comment was said many yrs after them being wiped to sasuke. Its one of his ambitions after all the revival of the uchiha clan.



Ah, ok kk, brilliant comment. Yeah such a comment was made after, but what many forget is that the comment Madara made was made around 60-70 before the Uchiha Massacre.


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## principito (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> I totally forgot about that. There was obviously a reason as to why the Raikage wished to possess the Byakugan.




Sharingan has been widely explored and evolved within the manga, unlije Byakugan. Everything that could be said about the later would be all hype and assumptions.

As for base sharingan vs base byakugan, it would be close. Personally I don't know how genjutsu affects ie Neji. I think this would be the thing thet determined the outcome. Katons etc would just be fodder.


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

> i.e madara was defeated by shodai.
> i dont dispute the fact of madara being defeated, but try to understand "how" and speculate the reason how he lost. Was it 1 vs 1 or did some konoha members help, list can go on and on.



What are you talking about? Nothing in the manga even hints that Shodai had any help at all.



> alot of mischaracterization and the logic you used in this instance is questionable.



Do you mind pointing out the flaw in the logic I used? Sasuke and Kakashi used the sharingan in the way that I stated, did they not? Byakuugan does not see the person's eyes but their insides, so genjutsu working against it is questionable, is it not? Was I wrong about Neji's statment and then his showings?


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Lol, still being debated?

You can use the "raikage wanted byakugan" argument, but it's irrelevant because then I can just say that Orochimaru wanted sharingan.

It's pretty clear which clan and which kekkai genkai is superior, but there are a lot of haters


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

principito said:


> Sharingan has been widely explored and evolved within the manga, unlije Byakugan. Everything that could be said about the later would be all hype and assumptions.
> 
> As for base sharingan vs base byakugan, it would be close. *Personally I don't know how genjutsu affects ie Neji*. I think this would be the thing thet determined the outcome. Katons etc would just be fodder.



Genjutsu isn't needed. Neji's fighting style is based on close range. Anyone with any remote logic on how to use the sharingan can easily avoid the jyuukens linear movements.


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## Koroshi (Jun 17, 2009)

Personally we haven't seen much from the Hyuuga if we are to judge who is really stronger, but judging from hype I'd say Uchiha are stronger.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Koroshi said:


> Personally we haven't seen much from the Hyuuga if we are to judge who is really stronger, but judging from hype I'd say Uchiha are stronger.



Uchiha was the only match for Senju. Senju was the only match for Uchiha.


We really don't have to go into how much has been seen, the author is making it blatantly clear that only Senju matched Uchiha. No mention of Hyuuga.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 17, 2009)

Hamaru said:


> What are you talking about? Nothing in the manga even hints that Shodai had any help at all.


madara challenged konoha. Thats a Fact, thats what the manga said, thats what the databook said.

For all we know he couldve defeated countless shinobi then finally made it to battle shodai and lost.
i.e pain kinda fight or kakuzu kinda fight
where in pain fight, he took on konoha and was defeated by naruto
or
kakuzu taking on team kakashi/asuma and was defeated by naruto

As i said, one can only speculate "how" madara lost, not the fact that he did.



> Do you mind pointing out the flaw in the logic I used? Sasuke and Kakashi used the sharingan in the way that I stated, did they not? Byakuugan does not see the person's eyes but their insides, so genjutsu working against it is questionable, is it not? Was I wrong about Neji's statment and then his showings?



the over arching claim that if a uchiha is taijutsu concentric they lose. When the sharingan has predictive ability towards taijutsu. In which it will come down to that shinobi taijutsu skill and speed and intelligence to win, and with the sharingan, it gives the user a extra bonus if hes equal to that person in taijutsu/speed and intelligence w/o using the sharingan. 

So in turn for a hyuuga to be better they must be significantly better than the uchiha in taijutsu/speed and intelligence.

But you see the catch 22? If a uchiha is centric around that his tai/speed skill would be high.

Also to claim sasuke is a taijutsu type is a w/e moment, one can argue hes more nin. This can be seen with the many variations of chidori he gained over the time skip.

then the statement about cutting/destroy attacks made of chackra. As if neji will look at a Katon jutsu and stick his hand out and make it nonexistent. 

Then you use selective examples about neji doing it with kidou and breaking out of the water prison. But at the same time dont question the fact of him dodging a giant tsunami water attack _if by your assesment_ can destroy any justu "as if a snap of his fingers" which is made of chakra.

As i said mischaracterization.

now to your statement above.
The byakugan *can see* a person pupils by the fact neji has seen it while the byakugan active looking at hinata looking down to the left and etc etc during the chuunin prelims.


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## kalunga (Jun 17, 2009)

Well, it seems that Uchiha clan is the strongest, stated by a lot of persons...


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

> Not having the sharingan doesn't mean anything. Sasuke graduated with straight A's and was the rookie of the year, prior to gaining the sharingan. His marks were better than Shikamaru's.



lol, his marks were better than Shikamaru's because Shika didn't even try in school. Sasuke also got his a$$ handed to him by Lee when he only had 2 tomoe sharingan and then loss to Naruto on the roof top. To make the Uchiha seem even weaker, Sasuke needed to take drugs in order to gain the 2nd curse seal level and had to fall back on Oro's power even in part 2 of the manga. Once he didn't have Oro's power anymore, he got beat up with his back up in his first fight with only his Uchiha power to lean on. If that isn't enough, Itachi had to give him MS. This is the same Sasuke who is supposed to have more potential than Itachi. That makes him at least the 3rd-5th strongest Uchiha that we know about and he has not been impresssive when using his own power. 

It goes back to what I said about the Hyuuga having the stronger clan and the Uchiha had the strongest individual.



> You can use the "raikage wanted byakugan" argument, but it's irrelevant because then I can just say that Orochimaru wanted sharingan.
> 
> It's pretty clear which clan and which kekkai genkai is superior, but there are a lot of haters



I am not talking about the Raikage wanting the Byakugan. I am talking about Hiashi killing the strongest Jounin in the land of thunder with one hit. We already know that the land of thunder produce some very powerful nin. As for Madara's story, it seems like a half truth to get Sasuke's head pumped so that he can be used. Part 1 said that the Hyuuga was the oldest clan in the leaf, so Madara's story does not add up with that at all.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

^If Hyuuga had the strongest Clan then how come it was stated, by the author, that only Senju were a match for them?

I also love how you used individual failures as proof, and then went on to say Uchiha had the best individuals.

Nice contradictions.


Having the best individuals should = having the best clan. Logic obviously doesn't apply to some people though.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Genjutsu isn't needed. Neji's fighting style is based on close range. Anyone with any remote logic on how to use the sharingan can easily avoid the jyuukens linear movements.



I disagree, due to the fact Neji's palm divination are very far from linear and orthodox, considering there have been very few who have shown the speed to block, let alone counter, such an amount of offenses coming at them simultaneously within seconds.

The same principle in which Rock Lee stated comes to mind,

"Even if you can read my moves with your eyes, your body does not have the speed to react to my Taijutsu. Basically, even if you can see it, if your body can't move, then it's useless." - Rock Lee, Chapter 37, Page 19.


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## Lord Bishop (Jun 17, 2009)

Itachi > Sasuke. (Willful suicide. )

Sasuke > Neji.

Neji > Blind Sasuke & Blind Itachi (*Not* renowned NF user. He wins at everything.)

It evens out rather well.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> I disagree, due to the fact Neji's palm divination are very far from linear and orthodox, considering there have been very few who have shown the speed to block, let alone counter, such an amount of offenses coming at them simultaneously within seconds.
> 
> The same principle in which Rock Lee stated comes to mind,
> 
> "Even if you can read my moves with your eyes, your body does not have the speed to react to my Taijutsu. Basically, even if you can see it, if your body can't move, then it's useless." - Rock Lee, Chapter 37, Page 19.



1) Every time we see a Hyuuga fight, their movements are very linear.
2) You can't compare palm diviations to a high speed full body movement. Dodging hands would be easier than dodging an entire body.


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## Whip Whirlwind (Jun 17, 2009)

Btw, i think its important we determine WHICH uchiha clan we are talking about.

I think pre konoha Uchiha clan (Even without madara) were fucking beasts through necessity. Konoha uchiha clan? I dont think they had as many sharingans or mega skilled shinobi.


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

> madara challenged konoha. Thats a Fact, thats what the manga said, thats what the databook said.
> 
> For all we know he couldve defeated countless shinobi then finally made it to battle shodai and lost.
> i.e pain kinda fight or kakuzu kinda fight
> ...



That is nothing more than a fan fiction. Madara challenged Shodai, but he never said anything about having to fight other people before the fight. Your just trying to make up something that would give Shodai the advantage. Did you forget that Madara could summon Kyuubi and Kyuubi could pretty much solo the village while Madara fights Shodai?



> the over arching claim that if a uchiha is taijutsu concentric they lose. When the sharingan has predictive ability towards taijutsu. In which it will come down to that shinobi taijutsu skill and speed and intelligence to win, and with the sharingan, it gives the user a extra bonus if hes equal to that person in taijutsu/speed and intelligence w/o using the sharingan.
> 
> So in turn for a hyuuga to be better they must be significantly better than the uchiha in taijutsu/speed and intelligence.


Was it not stated that the Hyuuga had the strongest Taijutsu in the village? Even Orochimaru talked about their ability. We are also talking about the adverage clan member not people like Itachi and Madara. We already seen how Sasuke did against Lee who has weaker taijutsu than Neji. Itachi easily beat about 3 Uchiha that had their sharingan activated in a few secs, yet Kakashi alone was able to react to Itachi and keep up until Kurenai got in the way. That alone shows that the adverage Uchiha does not have the speed that is needed to give them the edge in taijutsu.



> Also to claim sasuke is a taijutsu type is a w/e moment, one can argue hes more nin. This can be seen with the many variations of chidori he gained over the time skip.



You didn't understand what I said. I said that Sasuke used his sharingan to learn taijutsu more than ninjutsu. The ninjutsu that he did learn came from Kakashi and Orochimaru. The only thing he really did himself was mix up Chidori a bit. Without Kakashi and Orochimaru, Sasuke was going the direction of a taijutsu user who could also use fire attacks.



> then the statement about cutting/destroy attacks made of chackra. As if neji will look at a Katon jutsu and stick his hand out and make it nonexistent.
> 
> Then you use selective examples about neji doing it with kidou and breaking out of the water prison. But at the same time dont question the fact of him dodging a giant tsunami water attack if by your assesment can destroy any justu "as if a snap of his fingers" which is made of chakra.



You are the one who took that Neji comment over the top. I didn't say anything about Neji doing so in the manner in which you are making it out to be. If you can dodge an attack instead of blocking or using chakra, why wouldn't you? Neji can stop physical attacks as well, but he still dodges them for the most part, so saying that he dodged a chakra attack does not mean much.



> now to your statement above.
> The byakugan can see a person pupils by the fact neji has seen it while the byakugan active looking at hinata looking down to the left and etc etc during the chuunin prelims.


You do have a point there. However, the Byakugan can also see chakra. So they will be able to see the chakra when the genjutsu is used.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Windwaker said:


> Btw, i think its important we determine WHICH uchiha clan we are talking about.
> 
> I think pre konoha Uchiha clan (Even without madara) were fucking beasts through necessity. Konoha uchiha clan? I dont think they had as many sharingans or mega skilled shinobi.



Well considering Itachi asked Madara to help him with the process, they were still beasts and a half.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> 1) Every time we see a Hyuuga fight, their movements are very linear.
> 2) You can't compare palm diviations to a high speed full body movement. Dodging hands would be easier than dodging an entire body.



Hey  We've seen Hiashi preform Hakke Kaiten, I wouldn't call that particular ability linear at all considering that the Sharingan cannot see through phyiscal objects or one's Tenketsu system, thus it would be unorthox, similar to Kimimaro release of bones you could say.

Hinata preformed Juuho Soushiken, which was possibly linear, but one could object due to the momentum behind the offense and the fact that she was spinning, thus hiding her hands for a moment.

Dodging hands would be easier, agreed, but dodging 64 palm-based offenses simultaneously would be quite impressive, though we havien't seen Sasuke be able to do such a thing, even against Kirabi.


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> ^If Hyuuga had the strongest Clan then how come it was stated, by the author, that only Senju were a match for them?
> 
> I also love how you used individual failures as proof, and then went on to say Uchiha had the best individuals.
> 
> ...



Don't be dense. The Uchiha had the strongest individuals in Madara and most likely Sasuke. However that does not make them the strongest clan. If I had an army with 2 of the worlds best soldiers and the rest of them are average, that does not mean that an army with above adverage soldiers could not beat me. I used Sasuke's failures because he is one of the best Uchiha that we know of and he had to lean of other people's power.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Windwaker said:


> Btw, i think its important we determine WHICH uchiha clan we are talking about.
> 
> I think pre konoha Uchiha clan (Even without madara) were fucking beasts through necessity. Konoha uchiha clan? I dont think they had as many sharingans or mega skilled shinobi.



Brilliant comment! I said this earlier that everyone's reference to the Senju and the Uchiha was 60-70 years or so before the Uchiha Massacre.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Hamaru said:


> Don't be dense. The Uchiha had the strongest individuals in Madara and most likely Sasuke. However that does not make them the strongest clan. If I had an army with 2 of the worlds best soldiers and the rest of them are average, that does not mean that an army with above adverage soldiers could not beat me. I used Sasuke's failures because he is one of the best Uchiha that we know of and he had to lean of other people's power.



There's problems with this statement.

Itachi, who is arguably stronger than Sasuke, could not wipe out the Uchiha on his own. He needed Madara's help. If Madara and Itachi are both needed to wipe out Uchiha, what does that say about them? Itachi has the ability to take down Oro. A person who could destroy villages. If the Uchiha are equal to Itachi's level, they can arguably destroy villages on their own.

Which was one of the fears of the elders.

Uchiha>Hyuuga. Obvious to anyone with half a brain



I'm sure you're ignoring the fact that it's been stated several times that the Uchiha clan are superior among Konohas noble houses.


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## principito (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Genjutsu isn't needed. Neji's fighting style is based on close range. Anyone with any remote logic on how to use the sharingan can easily avoid the jyuukens linear movements.



I think Genjutsu would be determinant is possible effect on hyuuga.

Hyuuga would force the battle into a close range one. I dont think long range attacks would have any effect. I don't know if ie Karin would pass by the hyuuga absolute deffense. This hasn't been ever explored in the manga so it would be all especulation.

At close range, while uchiha's might move fast overall and land a few punches, hyuugas possible fewer punches have devastating effects. Plus I don't know it their speed would be able to counter that 64-hit combo.



Taka Sasuke said:


> ^If Hyuuga had the strongest Clan then how come it was stated, by the author, that only Senju were a match for them?



This might be very arguable in both ways so I'm not even gonna start a discussion here.



Bartallen2 said:


> I disagree, due to the fact Neji's palm divination are very far from linear and orthodox, considering there have been very few who have shown the speed to block, let alone counter, such an amount of offenses coming at them simultaneously within seconds.



This is very true, but as I said before, Hyuuga are vulnerable against long range fighters, and I dont know at what extent does the absolute deffense works against powerful long range ninjutsu.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Brilliant comment! I said this earlier that everyone's reference to the Senju and the Uchiha was 60-70 years or so before the Uchiha Massacre.



The Clan still needed Madara and Itachi to take them down. So there's really no argument, they're still beasts.


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## Isaha (Jun 17, 2009)

The Uchiha Clan. Because they're probably naturally more inclined to fights than the Hyuugas are.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Yeah, certainly did. If you look on previous topics on this page, I used the words gifted combined with powerful for Yondaime and Neji, and the mistake came when bringing up Shisui of the Mirage. Simple mistake.



Yes, pretty simple you've made a lot of mistakes in this thread to be fair.



> The Clan still needed Madara and Itachi to take them down. So there's really no argument, they're still beasts.



Even an Uchiha housewife (Mikoto) was a jounin. The fact people are disputing who's stronger is pretty sad.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/17/
If that's not the proof you need I don't know what is.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> There's problems with this statement.
> 
> Itachi, who is arguably stronger than Sasuke, could not wipe out the Uchiha on his own. He needed Madara's help. If Madara and Itachi are both needed to wipe out Uchiha, what does that say about them? Itachi has the ability to take down Oro. A person who could destroy villages. If the Uchiha are equal to Itachi's level, they can arguably destroy villages on their own.



Itachi could not wipe would the Uchiha Clan on his own, true. Shall I tell you why? Itachi could not have killed the whole Uchiha Clan all by himself even with the use of the Mangekyo Sharingan since he seemed to get very tired after fighting Kakashi briefly when using Kaiton, Kage Bushin and Tsukuyomi, in which he went away with Kisame when Guy said that he summoned the ANBU Black Ops. Plus we don't know if Itachi had health problems during that period either, which he may have.

It has nothing to do with power, but the amount of Uchiha Clan members which may have been there. Not to mention that Itachi's father Fugaku would have been relatively power. Plus, we don't know whether Shisui was killed by a combined effort including Madara.



Taka Sasuke said:


> Uchiha>Hyuuga. Obvious to anyone with half a brain



It doesn't mean that the Uchiha are superior than the Hyuga.


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## Attor (Jun 17, 2009)

Hamaru said:


> Don't be dense. The Uchiha had the strongest individuals in Madara and most likely Sasuke. However that does not make them the strongest clan. If I had an army with 2 of the worlds best soldiers and the rest of them are average, that does not mean that an army with above adverage soldiers could not beat me. I used Sasuke's failures because he is one of the best Uchiha that we know of and he had to lean of other people's power.



But we know that Uchiha's have incredible Chakra, not just among individuals like Madara, but among the clan as a whole. Do you remember Madara's statement: '*Even amongst the Uchiha* my Chakras were especially strong.' The statement seems to be imply that as a whole the Uchiha were great in their power, figures like Madara were just great*er.* But just to say that figures like Madara were greater does not follow that the remainder of the clan were not _great_, see? 

So your 'army' example doesn't really work, the remainders of the Uchiha were also incredibly powerful, they can not be dismissed in the way your soilders can in the example you give, because as Madara points out, the rest of the Uchiha clan had great Chakra too.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> Yes, pretty simple you've made a lot of mistakes in this thread to be fair.



What exactly are you suggesting?



Sasuke_Bateman said:


> Even an Uchiha housewife (Mikoto) was a jounin. The fact people are disputing who's stronger is pretty sad.



Very true, but we havien't seen her within combat. Also, we have no proof that she has unlocked her Sharingan.


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

> Well considering Itachi asked Madara to help him with the process, they were still beasts and a half.


Itachi asking for help does not make them beast. They just had a number advantage.

There's problems with this statement.



> Itachi, who is arguably stronger than Sasuke, could not wipe out the Uchiha on his own. He needed Madara's help. If Madara and Itachi are both needed to wipe out Uchiha, what does that say about them? Itachi has the ability to take down Oro. A person who could destroy villages. If the Uchiha are equal to Itachi's level, they can arguably destroy villages on their own.
> 
> Which was one of the fears of the elders.
> 
> Uchiha>Hyuuga. Obvious to anyone with half a brain



lol, Oro's weakness was the sharingan's genjutsu used by ITACHI who is a master at genjutsu. Sasuke on the other hand had to attack him while he was half dead. Itachi just had a rare advantage that seems clear in the manga. Orochimaru didn't care about the other Uchiha, he only cared about Itachi and Sasuke. Why? Because their eyes had the most potential, that makes it clear that the other sharingan user were  not on the same level or else he could have just gone for one of them. Besides that Itachi made it clear that they are not on his level when he beat the hell out of them when they went to his house.  So no, they are not anywhere close to Itachi's level. 



> I'm sure you're ignoring the fact that it's been stated several times that the Uchiha clan are superior among Konohas noble houses.


Statments made by another Uchiha. I am sure that you are ignoring the pride of an Uchiha that makes them say things that are not true. Like only a sharingan can beat a sharingan.


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

> But we know that Uchiha's have incredible Chakra, not just among individuals like Madara, but among the clan as a whole. Do you remember Madara's statement: 'Even amongst the Uchiha my Chakras were especially strong.' The statement seems to be imply that as a whole the Uchiha were great in their power, figures like Madara were just greater. But just to say that figures like Madara were greater does not follow that the remainder of the clan were not great, see?
> 
> So your 'army' example doesn't really work, the remainders of the Uchiha were also incredibly powerful, they can not be dismissed in the way your soilders can in the example you give, because as Madara points out, the rest of the Uchiha clan had great Chakra too.



Think about the clans in Konoha. How many of them have a lot of chakra other than Uchiha and Hyuga? Neji and equal power to KN in the chunnin exams and Kido also made a comment on how much chakra Neji has, so it is pretty clear that the Hyuga also have a lot of chakra. Besides that, 2 people killed an entire clan. Itachis chakra was not that great, yet he clearly had much more than the rest of the clan. Itachi used a lot of chakra to beat Kakashi and Kakashi has low chakra.


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## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jun 17, 2009)

What's a Hyuuga clan ? is that the ramenshop's name?


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## Way-Man (Jun 17, 2009)

I say the Hyuuga clan because every member is an elite, but I can understand why most people say that the Uchiha are stronger.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/279/03/
The ability to see chakra flow with Byakugan.

_"What a nostalgic face!"_
is the same with sharingan.


The only thing Hyuugas have going for em is their 359 degrees vision and there taijutsu. Taijutsu is automatically useless if it's as linear as the jyuuken against sharingan. Also, 359 degrees vision doesn't mean that you can dodge an attack.


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

> _"What a nostalgic face!"_
> The ability to see chakra flow with Byakugan.
> 
> _"What a nostalgic face!"_
> ...



Wrong again. Lee has shown that high speed can get the job done. Kakuzu has also shown that high speed gets the job done. Kakashi in part one of the manga was able to keep up with Itachi. Itachi blitzed 3 of the Uchiha police without a problem, so that shows that their speed isn't great.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

> Like only a sharingan can beat a sharingan.



I'm pretty sure Chiyo said the same thing

Is this rabid delusion talking? 

You can say shit like "Madara and Itachi as individuals are strong", but the fact that the Uchiha clan can produce these individuals, while the Hyuuga clan produces Neji tells me a lot of their potential as a whole. Your argument about how Uchihas have strong individuals backfires on you. If the Uchiha clan can produce said Shinobi, it tells you a lot about their abilities. 

Also, Hamaru, you say Itachi beat Kakashi? Unless your reading comprehension is that of a 4 year old's, you should realize he was toying with him. Otherwise, Kakashi would be dead.

With Orochimaru, when his ambitions of obtaining sharingan started is unknown. If it happened after the Uchiha massacre, obviously he would only go after Itachi and Sasuke.

The only time we see him going after Itachi is after the massacre. So please don't speculate and say that he wanted the sharingan before the uchiha massacre.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> The ability to see chakra flow with Byakugan is the same with sharingan.



The Byakugan's insight surpasses that of the Sharingan's, as stated by Kakashi. However, the Sharingan can see Chakra flow, just not on the same scale as the Byakugan.



Taka Sasuke said:


> The only thing Hyuugas have going for em is their 359 degrees vision and there taijutsu. Taijutsu is automatically useless if it's as linear as the jyuuken against sharingan. Also, 359 degrees vision doesn't mean that you can dodge an attack.



Yes, also their various other offenses and defences, such as Hakke Kaiten for example. The Hyuga's Taijutsu is not useless if you consider the properties of Gentle Fist and it's deviniatons which are not by any standards linear, considering that it is not a motion in a straight line due to the fact there is sixity four strikes delivered within seconds from several directions and angles, plus no such Shinobi has shown to to be able to prevent such an offense with speed, unless you include Hirishin etc.

Again, the Byakugan allows the user to sense all the movements within a specific radius and to see the Tenketsu system, thus the Byakugan wielder will be aware of the incoming offense and attempt to dodge it.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Hamaru said:


> Wrong again. Lee has shown that high speed can get the job done. Kakuzu has also shown that high speed gets the job done. Kakashi in part one of the manga was able to keep up with Itachi. Itachi blitzed 3 of the Uchiha police without a problem, so that shows that their speed isn't great.



Frist off, Lee versus a two tomoe adolescent Sasuke doesn't represent Uchihas potential at all. That was cute though

Kakashi can't use the sharingan to it's full potential. He doesn't have an Uchiha body, he tires easily. Tiring easily means your speed decreases. Nice try though

Itachi was the greatest genius to ever leave the academy. He became an ANBU squad leader before hitting puberty, him speed blitzing three cops shouldn't be a surprise. As well as it was for hype. Cool story though



If you can find me any proof of Hyuugas having speed like Kakuzu's or Itachi's this, I'd gladly like to see it. I'll be waiting.


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## Attor (Jun 17, 2009)

Hamaru said:


> Think about the clans in Konoha. How many of them have a lot of chakra other than Uchiha and Hyuga? Neji and equal power to KN in the chunnin exams and Kido also made a comment on how much chakra Neji has, so it is pretty clear that the Hyuga also have a lot of chakra.



There's a different between the Uchiha and the other clans. The difference is that the Uchiha are noted (both as individuals _and_ as clan) countless times in the manga for their Chakra. It was even stated that the chief reason Madara has survived so long in such astonishing condition is down to his huge Chakra, and then we also have the Kyuubi noting Sasuke's Chakra when they meet. And if that wasn't enough, we also have quotes (like the one in my original post) that imply the remainder of the clan _also_ had great Chakra.

Now, this doesn't mean that other clans didn't have great Chakra. Notice, how I never said this was the case. But the fact that Uchiha's are constantly mentioned in relation to their Chakra suggests that they are indeed above the other clans. Look at it this way, if a footballer is praised more than others for his skill in taking penalties, this doesn't imply that other footballers have no skill in taking penalties, just that the particular footballer in question outshines them. The same applies here, other clans may also have great Chakra, but the Uchiha's are noted and praised much more. 



> Besides that, 2 people killed an entire clan. Itachis chakra was not that great, yet he clearly had much more than the rest of the clan. Itachi used a lot of chakra to beat Kakashi and Kakashi has low chakra.



You're forgetting Itachi was accompanied by a man praised as having some of the greatest Chakra, Chakra so extraordinary that he claims it is the reason he is still alive and kicking (literally.) And regardless of what you speculate about Itachi's Chakra, you can't change the fact that he was hailed as an Uchiha genius, one of the earliest individuals to awaken the Sharingan.  

So lets get the record straight, being taken out by the most incredibly Uchiha to ever live, and a supernatural genius in skill does _not equal_ a weak clan. Especially as (as far as we can tell) it was an ambush situation.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Yes, also their various other offenses and defences, such as Hakke Kaiten for example. The Hyuga's Taijutsu is not useless if you consider the properties of Gentle Fist and it's deviniatons which are not by any standards linear, considering that it is not a motion in a straight line due to the fact there is sixity four strikes delivered within seconds from several directions and angles, plus no such Shinobi has shown to to be able to prevent such an offense with speed, unless you include Hirishin etc.
> 
> Again, the Byakugan allows the user to sense all the movements within a specific radius and to see the Tenketsu system, thus the Byakugan wielder will be aware of the incoming offense and attempt to dodge it.




*sigh*

For one. Gentle fist *is* linear. Linear doesn't mean it has to be in a straight line. But if the fighting style is orthodox and completely predictable, it can be dodged. This should've been evident when Hinata was blocking some of Neji's attacks.

Secondly, the palm diviations don't come from different angles and directions. The all come from the same place. The user. Sharingan reads movements based on slight muscle tensions released from the body. As well as their ability to see chakra flow, they would easily be able to start a counter to that move. Just get out of the range. Any D-rank shinobi can use a shunshin to leave an area.

Also, being aware of an attack =/=  dodging it.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 17, 2009)

Hamaru said:


> That is nothing more than a fan fiction. Madara challenged Shodai, but he never said anything about having to fight other people before the fight. Your just trying to make up something that would give Shodai the advantage. Did you forget that Madara could summon Kyuubi and Kyuubi could pretty much solo the village while Madara fights Shodai?


What are you talking about. Its in bold print he challege konoha in the manga its in bold print in the databook.
He challenge konoha and was defeated by shodai. thats all it said.
What i said is we dont know how the fight went about and for all we know it could of been a kakuzu situation or it may not.

-did you forgot that there was uchiha in konoha with ms and shodai who could control bijuu? So whats a kyuubi to do against a clan that can control him with ms allied with shodai and konoha.



> Was it not stated that the Hyuuga had the strongest Taijutsu in the village?


Strongest taijutsu style yea?


> Even Orochimaru talked about their ability. We are also talking about the adverage clan member not people like Itachi and Madara.


funny that u mention that. what is a average clan member? because you have to have expert target ability and timing to hit a moving target and insert your chi into them to be great in jyuuken. you make it as if all hyuuga's are on neji level with it.

But my point still stands if you have someone training and trying to be proficient around taijutsu + sharingan they will have the advantage.


> We already seen how Sasuke did against Lee who has weaker taijutsu than Neji.


im not even going to prove you wrong using  the databook facts on this.
But the who aspect of lee and neji, is that lee stopped challenging neji after the speech with gai and point is even made more clearly by the way he wanted to fight neji in the tournament and prove that hardwork will overcome a genius and why neji was surprised that lee had gates or those weights.



> Itachi easily beat about 3 Uchiha that had their sharingan activated in a few secs, yet Kakashi alone was able to react to Itachi and keep up until Kurenai got in the way.


Dude, when your trying to stick to the point stick to it, dont try to bring in points that have no relation.
was itachi and kakashi fighting in taijutsu? NO? ok thanks.
Then why try to compare the instances when discussing taijutsu?



> That alone shows that the adverage Uchiha does not have the speed that is needed to give them the edge in taijutsu.


you made no point, all you did was through out disconnected events then say yea i proved it.



> You didn't understand what I said. I said that Sasuke used his sharingan to learn taijutsu more than ninjutsu. The ninjutsu that he did learn came from Kakashi and Orochimaru. The only thing he really did himself was mix up Chidori a bit. Without Kakashi and Orochimaru, Sasuke was going the direction of a taijutsu user who could also* use fire attacks.*


thank you for proving my point.
as i said one can make the point he is ninjutsu centric than taijutsu centric, thus making your point moot.



> You are the one who took that Neji comment over the top. I didn't say anything about Neji doing so in the manner in which you are making it out to be. If you can dodge an attack instead of blocking or using chakra, why wouldn't you? Neji can stop physical attacks as well, but he still dodges them for the most part, so saying that he dodged a chakra attack does not mean much.


the point is, one has to master jyuuken do what neji did, whats average about that? so no, no average hyuuga would be doing that.

next the examples you give make it like he can stop anything made from chakra instantly as if any fire jutsu used by a uchiha would be instantly thwarted. 



> You do have a point there. However, the Byakugan can also see chakra. So they will be able to see the chakra when the genjutsu is used.


i do have a point. you falsely claim the byakugan cant see the pupil, which i proved you wrong.


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> For one. Gentle fist *is* linear. Linear doesn't mean it has to be in a straight line. But if the fighting style is orthodox and completely predictable, it can be dodged. This should've been evident when Hinata was blocking some of Neji's attacks.



Gentle Fist is linear, certainly. However futhered stages of it are certainly not, either due to speed or various degrees of angular motion. Even if the normal stages of Gentle Fist are dodged, Hakke Kaiten will be a problem due to the fact it's outburst will be not predicted by any Uchiha Clan member.

Also, Neji was not wishing to kill Hinata immediately and he was using the basic stages of Gentle Fist.



Taka Sasuke said:


> Secondly, the palm diviations don't come from different angles and directions. The all come from the same place. The user. Sharingan reads movements based on slight muscle tensions released from the body. As well as their ability to see chakra flow, they would easily be able to start a counter to that move. Just get out of the range. Any D-rank shinobi can use a shunshin to leave an area.
> 
> Also, being aware of an attack =/=  dodging it.



True, maybe Gentle Fist is linear, but the speed is surely something. Though, the divination is not directly linear motion. Even so, few have displayed such speed to even block such a thing. Shinshin would be rather brilliant, but Kishimoto said that the divination is unavoidable, or are you questing such a thing? As I stated, the Sharingan's ability to see Chakra is not as powerful as that of the Byakugan's.

Killer Bee's movements were linear, however Sasuke didn't block them, due to the fact of the Chakra present within Killer Bee's weapons and the speed of such strikes.


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## αce (Jun 17, 2009)

Link for when Kishi said Divination is unavoidable?


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## Bart (Jun 17, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Link for when Kishi said Divination is unavoidable?



Hey, Taka 

Kishimoto makes the point in bold, at the right hand side of the panel. 

"Unavoidable! Neji's ultimate technique. 'Hakke Rokuju Yonshou' strikes Kidomaru!" 
The link: _"What a nostalgic face!"_


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## Soul-kun (Jun 17, 2009)

Uchiha clan.


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## Susano-o (Jun 17, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Hey, Taka
> 
> Kishimoto makes the point in bold, at the right hand side of the panel.
> 
> ...



Hey Bartallen2 

the side texts are only there for hyping and should not be taken literally
there are many examples where the side texts are utterly inaccurate


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## Naruto (Jun 17, 2009)

The Uchiha would annihilate the Hyuuga.

Frankly, Itachi would probably solo the Hyuuga.


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## MS81 (Jun 17, 2009)

wow no one wants to see a Hyuuga Ninjutsu specialist or Uchiha Taijutsu specialist???


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

> I'm pretty sure Chiyo said the same thing
> 
> Is this rabid delusion talking?
> 
> You can say shit like "Madara and Itachi as individuals are strong", but the fact that the Uchiha clan can produce these individuals, while the Hyuuga clan produces Neji tells me a lot of their potential as a whole. Your argument about how Uchihas have strong individuals backfires on you. If the Uchiha clan can produce said Shinobi, it tells you a lot about their abilities.



Do you not know the difference between a clan and an individual? Does Kobe Bryant come from a family of all star basketball players? Does Ali come from a family of world class boxers? Does Tiger Woods come from a family full of world class golf players? No. You theory about being stronger because of 2 people who have made a good name for themself fails. You call truth and logic contradiction because you can't understand it. Try to sit down and ask for some help.



> Also, Hamaru, you say Itachi beat Kakashi? Unless your reading comprehension is that of a 4 year old's, you should realize he was toying with him. Otherwise, Kakashi would be dead.


Did I say that Kakashi was stronger than Itachi? No. However, Kakashi did far better than this.
Link removed
Link removed

Three sharingan users = trash..They are not kids or nobodies. They are members of the police force and they still got owned bad. Those are the kinds of people that make up the Uchiha Clan, not people like Itachi and Madara. 



> With Orochimaru, when his ambitions of obtaining sharingan started is unknown. If it happened after the Uchiha massacre, obviously he would only go after Itachi and Sasuke.
> 
> The only time we see him going after Itachi is after the massacre. So please don't speculate and say that he wanted the sharingan before the uchiha massacre.


Orochimaru made it clear that all sharingans are not the same. He wanted someone who had eyes on Itachi's level or better. Anyone who rides the Uchiha's sack should know that.



> Frist off, Lee versus a two tomoe adolescent Sasuke doesn't represent Uchihas potential at all. That was cute though



First off, not every Uchiha has 3 tomoe sharingan. Thank you again for showing that you don't know what you are talking about though.



> Kakashi can't use the sharingan to it's full potential. He doesn't have an Uchiha body, he tires easily. Tiring easily means your speed decreases. Nice try though


lol, the side effect may be true, but he is one of the best Sharingan users ever talked about. He is the only sharingan user to gain MS without killing his best friend as well. He also used his sharingan to keep up with Itachi's movments and to counter Itachi's genjutsu (the clone). Itachi also stated that the genjutsu used while fighting with his clone would not work on Kakashi. Itachi also praised Kakashi for his ability to use the sharingan. So even though Kakashi isn't a Uchiha, he sure as hell is a lot better than those who are of the Uchiha bloodline. If I am wrong, show me a scan.



> Itachi was the greatest genius to ever leave the academy. He became an ANBU squad leader before hitting puberty, him speed blitzing three cops shouldn't be a surprise. As well as it was for hype. Cool story though
> 
> 
> 
> If you can find me any proof of Hyuugas having speed like Kakuzu's or Itachi's this, I'd gladly like to see it. I'll be waiting.



Thank you for prooving my point. Itachi had not problem beating the 3 cops because _*Itachi*_ is a rare case. However, his clan members are not shown to be anything close to his level. That is the point. This is about the _clan_ not the strongest member.

You also lack reading comprehsion. The average Hyuuga don't need anyone with Kakuzu's speed since the average Uchiha is many times slower than part 1 Kakashi. 



> There's a different between the Uchiha and the other clans. The difference is that the Uchiha are noted (both as individuals and as clan) countless times in the manga for their Chakra. It was even stated that the chief reason Madara has survived so long in such astonishing condition is down to his huge Chakra, and then we also have the Kyuubi noting Sasuke's Chakra when they meet. And if that wasn't enough, we also have quotes (like the one in my original post) that imply the remainder of the clan also had great Chakra.
> 
> Now, this doesn't mean that other clans didn't have great Chakra. Notice, how I never said this was the case. But the fact that Uchiha's are constantly mentioned in relation to their Chakra suggests that they are indeed above the other clans. Look at it this way, if a footballer is praised more than others for his skill in taking penalties, this doesn't imply that other footballers have no skill in taking penalties, just that the particular footballer in question outshines them. The same applies here, other clans may also have great Chakra, but the Uchiha's are noted and praised much more.



The other clans don't have that much chakra. The Uchiha, Hyuuga, Shino's clan, and the Shinji clan are the only clans that have shown good chakra compacity. Then there are  just random nin from random clans that have a lot of chakra. The only 2 people we have to really compare is Neji and Sasuke's chakra since they are around the same age. With that being said, Neji easily had more chakra before Oro gave Sasuke the curese mark.


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## Hamaru (Jun 17, 2009)

> You're forgetting Itachi was accompanied by a man praised as having some of the greatest Chakra, Chakra so extraordinary that he claims it is the reason he is still alive and kicking (literally.) And regardless of what you speculate about Itachi's Chakra, you can't change the fact that he was hailed as an Uchiha genius, one of the earliest individuals to awaken the Sharingan.
> 
> So lets get the record straight, being taken out by the most incredibly Uchiha to ever live, and a supernatural genius in skill does not equal a weak clan. Especially as (as far as we can tell) it was an ambush situation.



Your forgetting that Madara was not even noticed by anyone so that shows that he did not use much chakra when helping out Itachi. There were no huge explosions or massive attacks either. So the Uchiha chakra compacity goes unjustified by the beat down that they were given.



> What are you talking about. Its in bold print he challege konoha in the manga its in bold print in the databook.
> He challenge konoha and was defeated by shodai. thats all it said.
> What i said is we dont know how the fight went about and for all we know it could of been a kakuzu situation or it may not.
> 
> -did you forgot that there was uchiha in konoha with ms and shodai who could control bijuu? So whats a kyuubi to do against a clan that can control him with ms allied with shodai and konoha.



1) The fight took place at the Valley of the end.

2) The only scans shown are Shodai vs Madara and Kyuubi. Anything else holds no weight.



> funny that u mention that. what is a average clan member? because you have to have expert target ability and timing to hit a moving target and insert your chi into them to be great in jyuuken. you make it as if all hyuuga's are on neji level with it.
> 
> But my point still stands if you have someone training and trying to be proficient around taijutsu + sharingan they will have the advantage.



Of course not everyone is on Neji's level. However, Hiashi and Hisashi are the two strongest while Neji is just a kid. It is the same with how you can use Sasuke to hold a bit of a candle to what a Uchiha can do and can't do. The exact skill level for the average Hyuga may differ, but the ability is stilll there. That is what their clan does.



> im not even going to prove you wrong using the databook facts on this.
> But the who aspect of lee and neji, is that lee stopped challenging neji after the speech with gai and point is even made more clearly by the way he wanted to fight neji in the tournament and prove that hardwork will overcome a genius and why neji was surprised that lee had gates or those weights.



The weights did no catch Neji off gaurd at all. He just looked as if nothing happend. The only thing Neji didn't know abou was gates. Yet in the end he still wasn't that impressed and is still ranked higher than Lee till this day. Besides, Lee Beat Sasuke with the weights on.



> Dude, when your trying to stick to the point stick to it, dont try to bring in points that have no relation.
> was itachi and kakashi fighting in taijutsu? NO? ok thanks.
> Then why try to compare the instances when discussing taijutsu?


You missed the point. It was comparing the amount of speed a sharingan user can keep up with. 



> you made no point, all you did was through out disconnected events then say yea i proved it.



Conect the dots. 3 sharingan users can not keep up with Itachi's speed at all. Kakashi with only one sharingan and without Uchiha blood was able to keep up with Itachi until Kurenai got in the way and Itachi needed MS. What does this mean?

Kakashi's sharingan's ability to track speed >>>>>>>>>> The 3 cop's sharingan.

Itachi being faster than Kakashi means that in terms of speed, Itachi >> Kakashi >>>>>>>> The 3 cops.  The cops represent the adverage Uchiha. 



> thank you for proving my point.
> as i said one can make the point he is ninjutsu centric than taijutsu centric, thus making your point moot.




The point was how each person uses their sharingan in a different way. Sasuke used his mainly for taijutsu as he did in almost every fight in part one. If he uses a fire based attack (though you were talking about a taijutsu fight), kaiten would stop it, so the point still stands.



> the point is, one has to master jyuuken do what neji did, whats average about that? so no, no average hyuuga would be doing that.
> 
> next the examples you give make it like he can stop anything made from chakra instantly as if any fire jutsu used by a uchiha would be instantly thwarted.



What are you talking about? Chakra control is the Hyuuga's way of fighting. The only thing Neji did that was shown to be a shocker was when he used kaiten and the 64 strikes. That was only because it is for the main house hold and not the branch. 



> *i do have a point. *you falsely claim the byakugan cant see the pupil, which i proved you wrong.



Do you not know how to read? I said that in my last reply to you. However, that is only one thing that you proved me wrong on, and it does not change much.


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## Vanity (Jun 17, 2009)

I don't like the Uchiha clan but they are obviously stronger. If they weren't, the manga wouldn't be hyped around them as much as it is.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 18, 2009)

Hamaru said:


> 1) The fight took place at the Valley of the end.
> 
> 2) The only scans shown are Shodai vs Madara and Kyuubi. Anything else holds no weight.


i guess i need to type clearer
1. is anyone saying it didnt
2. it seems like im typing too many words and your only reading the first and the last. let me bold key words for you. "_What i said is we dont know *how the fight went about* and for all we know it could of been a kakuzu situation or *it may not.*"_



> Of course not everyone is on Neji's level. However, Hiashi and Hisashi are the two strongest while Neji is just a kid. It is the same with how you can use Sasuke to hold a bit of a candle to what a Uchiha can do and can't do. The exact skill level for the average Hyuga may differ, but the ability is stilll there. That is what their clan does.


And in terms of abilities the sharingan offers more.



> The weights did no catch Neji off gaurd at all. He just looked as if nothing happend. The only thing Neji didn't know abou was gates. *Yet in the end he still wasn't that impressed and is still ranked higher than Lee till this day. Besides, Lee Beat Sasuke with the weights on.*


 that which is in bold has nothing to do with anything about the previous quote of mine in question. you made a claim that lee had weaker taijutsu than neji when nothing said that he did. What was said was in the past he got beasted by neji. He worked hard and wanted to fight neji in the tournament to see if hardwork has surpassed a genius.

So for you to state that neji tai > lee tai is unsubstantiated. What is known is neji style is deadlier and thats w/o questions since you can not train your organs and a point no one is even contesting.

then try to connect sasuke and his sharingan to the instance when sasuke isnt a taijutsu centric ninja, hes a mix of nin and tai and later became nin/tai/gen



> You missed the point. It was comparing the amount of speed a sharingan user can keep up with.
> 
> Conect the dots. 3 sharingan users can not keep up with Itachi's speed at all. Kakashi with only one sharingan and without Uchiha blood was able to keep up with Itachi until Kurenai got in the way and Itachi needed MS. What does this mean?
> 
> ...


you have no idea what your talking.

You make a allegation you have no evidence of.  Again another attempt at gross mischaracterization. Then used deduced logic on a erroneous level.

First off your comparing itachi using ninjutsu, to itachi actually using taijutsu. Then make assumptions on the cops to fit w/e point _your attempting_ to make. How do you know whether or not the uchiha cops did or didnt see itachi movements but maybe were too slow to react? you have kakashi stating in the manga that his eyes couldnt keep up with itachi hand seals. So really wtf are you talking about? you just flatly stated a error then made a baseless assumption and ran with it.

Then just simple ignore databook and manga facts that those uchiha's who belong in the first division were nothing but average and were in fact elites within the clan.



> The point was how each person uses their sharingan in a different way. Sasuke used his mainly for taijutsu as he did in almost every fight in part one. If he uses a fire based attack (though you were talking about a taijutsu fight), kaiten would stop it, so the point still stands.


 no the point is, you have no point.
They use there sharingan as supplement to the way they fight. Sasuke was both a taij/nin user. So fought accordingly. The laughable sight that since he copied half of lee's lotus, that he must be taijutsu centric. He would be taijutsu centric if most of repertoire was taijutsu based, but in part 1 even after the sharingan it wasnt. What jutsus were he privy to see to have a chance at copying in part 1? oh right.. just lee move and a whole punch of bloodlines. What ninjutsu used against him? kage bunshin when fighting naruto? perhaps you will see how retarded the allegetion is to say sasuke used his sharingan taijutsu centric like, when he read through tai, nin and gen in part 1.

Which goes to the point i was making to begin with. _If_ a uchiha was training to be taijutsu centric his skill in taijutsu would be high adding the sharingan to his skill set would make him dangerous, so to say hyuuga *automatic win* in taijutsu is a farce. The hyuuga would have to be better than their opponent in taijutsu to win.




> What are you talking about? Chakra control is the Hyuuga's way of fighting. The only thing Neji did that was shown to be a shocker was when he used kaiten and the 64 strikes. That was only because it is for the main house hold and not the branch.


 yea chakra control a hyuuga is good at, but neji excelled and was above average. 
-releasing chakra through all points not average
-kaiten not average
-64 strike is not average

The only thing average is jyuuken. so the thought a hyuuga can simply do what neji did against kidoumaru and kisame is not sound. Thats what im talking about. Its like me bring up Ms techs as if thats the norm or sasuke busting out lee tai move after just seeing it. Thats the point i was making and saying it was a mischaracterization of how you represent it. To go back to the whole debate me and you are having you listed stuff that a hyuuga could do as if that normality when its not.



> Do you not know how to read? I said that in my last reply to you. However, that is only one thing that you proved me wrong on, and it does not change much.


no i proved you wrong on a whole host of issues. i also didnt reply to what you said about genjutsu because it was just simple speculation, because pain wasnt able to break out of genjutsu even though he can see three different angles in turn and can see chakra. genjutsu fucks your brain and makes you see what your opponent wants you to see, so to say the byakugan is immune is pure speculation where one can make a case for either side.


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## poiuy (Jun 18, 2009)

considering there's only like

2 uchiha left in the clan vs. like 100 hyuuga

it's safe to say hyuuga will own uchiha


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## Evil (Jun 18, 2009)

poiuy said:


> considering there's only like
> 
> 2 uchiha left in the clan vs. like 100 hyuuga
> 
> it's safe to say hyuuga will own uchiha



Considering one of those Uchiha are stronger than Naruto and the other is probably as strong, and Naruto was the only ninja who could compete with Pain even though the Hyuga clan was there- I think those 2 ninja > all of the Hyuga.

Unless you think Hiashi and Neji are some secret super ninja's.

Which is laughable at best since Sarutobi said there was no one in Konoha who could even stand up to Orochimaru other than himself, which includes Hiashi. Kakashi, Danzou, and Tsuande were all up for Hokage before any of the Hyuga and all of those people are conceivably weaker than Naruto by a good deal- save for Danzou.


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## Hamaru (Jun 18, 2009)

> i guess i need to type clearer
> 1. is anyone saying it didnt
> 2. it seems like im typing too many words and your only reading the first and the last. let me bold key words for you. "What i said is we dont know how the fight went about and for all we know it could of been a kakuzu situation or it may not."



I know what you are trying to say. The problem is that it does not mean anything. What may have happend in your mind does not matter. The only thing that matters is what was shown so there really isn't a point in talking about what could have happend. 



> And in terms of abilities the sharingan offers more.


No, the sharingan is something that is based on the user and can have a HUGE gap depending on who is using it. 
thunder dragon

We already seen how unimpressive the basic sharingan user is. All Byakugan users have a 359 degree feild of vision, they all have high chakra control. Hinata is the weakest known Hyuuga and even she can easily shape chakra and she took a shinra tensei.
thunder dragon

She may have been out after one hit but she was hit by a Pain's shinra tensei, while the Uchiha cops had their sharingan out and needed help after Itachi rushed them without a weapon or a jutsu. It was also a much younger Itachi at that.  So tell me this, which is more impressive? The weakest Hyuga getting hit by the most powerful person shown in the manga so far or 3 average Uchiha who could not even take being hit with a basic hit from Itachi?




> that which is in bold has nothing to do with anything about the previous quote of mine in question. *you made a claim that lee had weaker taijutsu than neji when nothing said that he did*. What was said was in the past he got beasted by neji. He worked hard and wanted to fight neji in the tournament to see if hardwork has surpassed a genius.


In the flash backs Neji was beating Lee without using his Byakugan or gentle fist.
thunder dragon

Lee also made a comment about Neji being stronger as well. 



> So for you to state that neji tai > lee tai is unsubstantiated. What is known is neji style is deadlier and thats w/o questions since you can not train your organs and a point no one is even contesting.
> 
> then try to connect sasuke and his sharingan to the instance when sasuke isnt a taijutsu centric ninja, hes a mix of nin and tai and later became nin/tai/gen


Now Sasuke is a mix, but before Oro and Kakashi he was *mainly* tai. Either way this is not just about Sasuke but the adverage clan member.



> you have no idea what your talking.
> 
> You make a allegation you have no evidence of. Again another attempt at gross mischaracterization. Then used deduced logic on a erroneous level.
> 
> First off your comparing itachi using ninjutsu, to itachi actually using taijutsu. Then make assumptions on the cops to fit w/e point your attempting to make. *How do you know whether or not the uchiha cops did or didnt see itachi movements but maybe were too slow to react?* you have kakashi stating in the manga that his eyes couldnt keep up with itachi hand seals. So really wtf are you talking about? you just flatly stated a error then made a baseless assumption and ran with it.



That is the point 

If you can't react, you are slow. Itachi heard about Kakashi before their fight and tried to trick him. Unlike those fodder cops, he could not just blindly rush him head on. Kakashi even managed to get a water clone in without Itachi seeing it happen. The difference in skill between Kakashi and those cops are very clear. Kakashi has better reaction speed, speed, and sharingan.



> Then just simple ignore databook and manga facts that those uchiha's who belong in the first division were nothing but average and were in fact elites within the clan.


It those guys were elite Uchiha clan members, that really makes the clan look bad.



> no the point is, you have no point.
> They use there sharingan as supplement to the way they fight. Sasuke was both a taij/nin user. So fought accordingly. The laughable sight that since he copied half of lee's lotus, that he must be taijutsu centric. He would be taijutsu centric if most of repertoire was taijutsu based, but in part 1 even after the sharingan it wasnt. What jutsus were he privy to see to have a chance at copying in part 1? oh right.. just lee move and a whole punch of bloodlines. What ninjutsu used against him? kage bunshin when fighting naruto? perhaps you will see how retarded the allegetion is to say sasuke used his sharingan taijutsu centric like, when he read through tai, nin and gen in part 1.



You really need to take Sasuke's happy place out of your mouth. Sasuke isn't the average Uchiha. We are talking about them as a clan. You also don't know what the hell you are talking about half the time. I NEVER said that Sasuke didn't use ninjutsu. I said that he used his sharingan MAINLY not only for taijutsu. He didn't use sharingan for his fire attacks did he? Kakashi had to teach him chidori. Yet he used his sharingan to stay alive while fighting Haku, used it to fight Lee in taijutsu, used it to learn lee's taijutsu, used it to fight Naruto on the roof with taijutsu, used it against the sound 4 with taijutsu, used it to fight KN with taijutsu.  Then you have someone like Kakashi who uses his sharingan to copy hand seals and learn ninjutsu. They both use the sharingan but favor using it in different ways.  But this will most likely fly over your head and you will go back to saying Sasuke uses ninjutsu.



> Which goes to the point i was making to begin with. If a uchiha was training to be taijutsu centric his skill in taijutsu would be high adding the sharingan to his skill set would make him dangerous, so to say hyuuga automatic win in taijutsu is a farce. The *hyuuga would have to be better than their opponent in taijutsu to win*.


Gee who would have thought 

So what Uchiha has shown the taijutu ability to fight hand to hand and not get hit? Taijustu is what the Hyuga spend their life using and a Uchiha has never been stated to be better than them in the taijutsu area.



> yea chakra control a hyuuga is good at, but neji excelled and was above average.
> -releasing chakra through all points not average
> -kaiten not average
> -64 strike is not average
> ...



The chakra control that Neji used in the Kido fight is part of the Jyuuken style. It is nothing that the average Hyuga can't do. 
thunder dragon



> *no i proved you wrong on a whole host of issues.* i also didnt reply to what you said about genjutsu because it was just simple speculation, because pain wasnt able to break out of genjutsu even though he can see three different angles in turn and can see chakra. genjutsu fucks your brain and makes you see what your opponent wants you to see, so to say the byakugan is immune is pure speculation where one can make a case for either side.


It seems like you are under a genjutsu right now. I already said that the genjutsu talk was pointless. However, Pain and they Hyuga are not the same.


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## Silenius (Jun 18, 2009)

Though I really have no answer one way or the other, here is some food for thought.

Produced by the Uchiha: 

Produced by the Hyuuga: 

Just some good clean fun.


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## Bart (Jun 18, 2009)

Susano-o said:


> Hey Bartallen2
> 
> the side texts are only there for hyping and should not be taken literally
> there are many examples where the side texts are utterly inaccurate



Perhaps, but I thought that the hyping was included within the Databook. Evertheless, Kishimoto included such a state within the Chapter. There is some evidence to proof that it may be especially, considering what Neji first said when he used it against Naruto:

"You're within range of my Divination..." - Neji Hyuga

Maybe it means once his opponents is inside that particular area that it is unavoidable? The definition is divination is also intriguing. But the fact is that no current character within manga has shown incredible speed, in terms of blocking or countering, to deflect the offenses of the divination.


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## Namikaze Naruto (Jun 18, 2009)

I can see some hole in kishi's state about uchiha being the strongest;

First, that statement always come up from uchiha themselves which mean it was self-proclaimed statement. Tough, the hyuuga themselves made similar self-proclaimed about hyuuga being the strongest. 

Second, some statements are made for hype and of course it was hyperbole as always. For your information, kishi's statement of hiruzen as the strongest hokage ever, if i don't mistaken, is as controversial as 'uchiha is the strongest in konoha' issue. Is there anybody here who certainly believe that sarutobi is stronger than shodai or yondi?

Third, about senju and uchiha were called the strongest, it was part from madara's speech, and we already know about his _bullshit_ing skill.. Example: 'kyuubi's appearances was part from natural freak disaster' which he told it to sasuke. Om the other hand, minato and j-man clearly stated that they thought of it as someone's plan, that someone is refer to madara, of course.. And i believe minato and j-man more than madara, i don't bother to explain the reasons since it was obvious after all.

Thus, all argumentation which including:
1. Uchiha was the strongest, said by kishi* himself.
2. Uchiha and senju  were the strongest, said madara himself.

are losing its validation in my point of view.

*I prefer to use word 'self-proclaimed' tough, since that statement wasn't told by kishi directly, it just for our information and, if i don't mistaken, the source of that information is an uchiha. 

If i do mistaken, than i am sorry, and please just show me the proof and i will eat my words if it must be.


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## Bart (Jun 18, 2009)

Evil said:


> Which is laughable at best since Sarutobi said there was no one in Konoha who could even stand up to Orochimaru other than himself, which includes Hiashi. Kakashi, Danzou, and Tsuande were all up for Hokage before any of the Hyuga and all of those people are conceivably weaker than Naruto by a good deal- save for Danzou.



When exactly did Sarutobi make that statement? Could you provide a Manga chapter reference? Though, if Sarutobi did indeed make such a statement, it was due to the fact he knew Orochimaru better than anyone else did. Not even Sasuke during Part II would have attempted to attack Orochimaru at full health, hence why he attacked him at such a damaging state.

Firstly, your assuming that the Hyuga were not considered, which we have no proof. Plus, the Hyuga are a rather secretive and proud Clan, which could possibly, if not partially, explain their lack of involement for such a thing as Hokage status.


----------



## Stringer Bell (Jun 18, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> When exactly did Sarutobi make that statement? Could you provide a Manga chapter reference? Though, if Sarutobi did indeed make such a statement, it was due to the fact he knew Orochimaru better than anyone else did. Not even Sasuke during Part II would have attempted to attack Orochimaru at full health, hence why he attacked him at such a damaging state.
> 
> Firstly, your assuming that the Hyuga were not considered, which we have no proof. Plus, the Hyuga are a rather secretive and proud Clan, which could possibly, if not partially, explain their lack of involement for such a thing as Hokage status.



I think he is talking about this page (Chap 94, Pg 8):


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## Bart (Jun 18, 2009)

pkp033 said:


> I think he is talking about this page:



Thanks for the scan Pkp. I had to edit this reply due to the size of the image


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## MS81 (Jun 18, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Thanks for the scan Pkp.



but the funny thing is that Kakashi stood up against 2 pains!!!


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## Undaunted (Jun 18, 2009)

I'll probably get hated on for this, but I believe that the current Uchiha clan (consisting of two members ) is still far more powerful than the Hyuuga clan. Madara would stomp-rape them with little effort alone, and Sasuke could probably take on most of them all together, and all of them one vs. one.

But discounting Sasuke, Madara and Itachi I believe that the Hyuuga clan would be stronger.


----------



## Lord Bishop (Jun 18, 2009)

Undaunted said:


> I'll probably get hated on for this, but I believe that the current Uchiha clan (consisting of two members ) is still far more powerful than the Hyuuga clan. Madara would stomp-rape them with little effort alone, and Sasuke could probably take on most of them all together, and all of them one vs. one.
> 
> But discounting Sasuke, Madara and Itachi I believe that the Hyuuga clan would be stronger.



Agreed. They are the avatars, effectively, of the clan.

For all we know, the rest of the clan may not have mastered the Sharingan to the extent that the Hyuugas mastered the Byakugan.


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## Undaunted (Jun 18, 2009)

Lord Bishop said:


> Agreed. They are the avatars, effectively, of the clan.
> 
> For all we know, the rest of the clan may not have mastered the Sharingan to the extent that the Hyuugas mastered the Byakugan.


And besides, Hyuuga got slaves.


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## G-Man (Jun 18, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> *Please read before posting or voting.*
> 
> Who's stronger? Personally, I believe that the Hyuga Clan are stronger becuase they are underrated in comparsion to the Uchiha Clan, but the other factor is that they have both the Byakugan and Jyuuken.
> 
> ...



What really would have made slaughtering the Hyuuga more difficult is that most of them can all see through walls for quite some distance.  They would have noticed their kin being killed and could have called for back-up (including help from the village when they realized they couldn't touch Madara), plus they don't trust Itachi so he doesn't get the ambush advantage either like he did with his clan.


As for all Hyuuga having Byakugan.  Has this ever actually been confirmed?  

All of the Hyuuga we've seen the faces of in the manga have Byakugan but that's what?  Koh, Hinata, Hanabi, Neji, Hiashi, Hizashi, and the elder who suggested sacrificing Hizashi (maybe a few others in that room, my exact memories of that scene are blurry).  We never actually saw the faces of the others in the manga during Neji's flashback, only in the anime.  

That's seven out of a whole clan vs the Uchiha's eight (Itachi, Sasuke, the three policemen who fought with Itachi, Obito, Madara, and Madara's brother).  It's also a safe bet that Fugaku had his (it'd be weird if the clan head didn't at least have his active), so that's nine we know of.  More than we've seen from the Hyuuga actually.

While its probably more commonly occuring than Sharingan, simply because it appears to not require any special conditions to activate, we've never actually been given any statement that Byakugan always occurs in every Hyuuga.  People just seem to assume that it does for some reason.

As for which clan is stronger.  Uchiha.  You never heard jack about the Hyuuga during Madara's explanation of the past.  It was Uchiha and Senju who dominated things (though to be fair, I got the impression that the Uchiha were much stronger in the past than they were by Itachi's time).

Not to mention the best example we've seen of the Hyuuga are Neji and Hiashi, and that's probably as far as any Hyuuga will ever go as long as they restrict themselves to just Jyuuken.  The strongest Uchiha we've seen blow the strongest Hyuuga out of the water (Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, hell, Kakashi isn't even an Uchiha, just an organ transplantee, and he'd likely smoke Neji or Hiashi), so even if such Uchiha are rare, they alone can turn the tide of a battle between the clans.

Not to mention if push comes to shove, the Uchiha can just go back to killing their best friends for the sake of gaining Mangekyou, then a mere handful of them would rape face all over the Hyuuga.

Personally, though, I'd rather not be a part of either clan.  If your Hyuuga you're either a slave or a jerk who is hated by at least half your family and judged critically by the other half.  If you're an Uchiha, you're a target for Orochimaru, Madara, Itachi, possibly Danzou, and maybe even Sasuke (at the very least he'll expect you to side with him or else).

No thanks to both choices.  I'd rather be an Akimichi, Nara, or an Inuzuka, or hell, even being a Yamanaka is preferable.  Just because Ino fails doesn't mean they'd all have to suck.


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## seastone (Jun 18, 2009)

afiandi said:


> First, that statement always come up from uchiha themselves which mean it was self-proclaimed statement.



So Kakashi is an Uchiha now?

During the bell training he said the Uchiha clan is most powerful clan.


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## G-Man (Jun 18, 2009)

Lord Bishop said:


> Agreed. They are the avatars, effectively, of the clan.
> 
> For all we know, *the rest of the clan may not have mastered the Sharingan to the extent that the Hyuugas mastered the Byakugan.*



This.  Who says the Hyuuga have mastered their Byakugans to the extent that Neji and Hiashi have?

The weakest Hyuuga we've seen is pre-skip Hinata, who apparently couldn't beat her little sister (though we have no idea exactly how that went and it could just be Hinata didn't have the heart and ruthlessness to explouit her obviosu height and reach advantage), and the strongest we know of is Hiashi, or possibly post-skip Neji.  That's a pretty big gap, nowhere near as big as the gap between the weakest Uchiha (some random member who was a civilan) and Madara (the strongest Uchiha so far), but still a pretty big gap.

We've seen only Hinata, Neji and Hiashi in action.  There's no way in hell we can jude the entire clan just by those three.  In that sense, we actually know far less about the Hyuuga than we do the Uchiha, so I don't know where everyone gets this "there are more Hyuuga who have mastered their Byakugan than there are Uchiha who have mastered their Sharingan" deal from.  Maybe you can make that argument now that the Uchiha clan has been reduced to two people (though Madara can likely solo the entire Hyuuga clan and it'd be funny to watch them try to use Jyuuken on someone whose intangible), but before we have absolutely no basis for this statement.  None.  It's never stated anywhere, nor do we even know how many Hyuuga are active ninja and not civilians!

So on strength, even accepting that the likes of Itachi and Madara are exceptions, and not the rule, they are still exceptions that exist and are members of said clan.  Madara alone turns it into a rape for the Uchiha, adding Sasuke and Itachi just makes it a baby-shake.


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## Sunabozu (Jun 18, 2009)

This page ends this thread debate ...


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## Bart (Jun 18, 2009)

G-Man said:


> What really would have made slaughtering the Hyuuga more difficult is that most of them can all see through walls for quite some distance. They would have noticed their kin being killed and could have called for back-up (including help from the village when they realized they couldn't touch Madara), plus they don't trust Itachi so he doesn't get the ambush advantage either like he did with his clan.



Hey, G-Man  Fantastic post! That's another point, which is rather sound if you ask me. But also, it's the fact that initiating into close combat against a Hyuga is most unwise, for obvious reasons.

The majority of the Uchiha, during the Uchiha Massacre, would have been using Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and possibly Taijutsu. Against Sharingan masters such as Madara and Itachi, most Ninjutsu and Genjutsu is useless, especially considering the Clan's Sharingan tamoe. We've seen Itachi reverse Genjutsu and copying opponents handseals. However, the Byakugan's Ninjutsu cannot be copied, and the Hyuga pride themselves in Taijutsu, which has much more chance than Ninjutsu and Genjutsu.

Kakashi himself has said the Byakugan surpasses the Sharingan and I quote from Hizashi's Databook: "As the family head of the strongest bloodline in Konoha, the Hyuuga house" and "The mastered Jyuuken is the pride of the Hyuuga clan! The force said to be Konoha's strongest is here!" 



G-Man said:


> As for all Hyuuga having Byakugan. Has this ever actually been confirmed?  All of the Hyuuga we've seen the faces of in the manga have Byakugan but that's what?  Koh, Hinata, Hanabi, Neji, Hiashi, Hizashi, and the elder who suggested sacrificing Hizashi (maybe a few others in that room, my exact memories of that scene are blurry).  We never actually saw the faces of the others in the manga during Neji's flashback, only in the anime.



I believe it was stated somewhere, but I can't exactly remember if it was from Manga or Kishimoto's Databook's. Yeah, I totally agree on your point regarding the rest of the Hyuga.



G-Man said:


> While its probably more commonly occuring than Sharingan, simply because it appears to not require any special conditions to activate, we've never actually been given any statement that Byakugan always occurs in every Hyuuga.  People just seem to assume that it does for some reason.



The Sharingan does need special conditions to unlock, considering that Obito unlocked his when saving Rin, and Sasuke when battling Haku, and saving Naruto, if I remember correctly. I personally believe that there is a correlation between danger plus emotions when unlocking it.

G-Man, you should ask someone exactly about the occurance of the Byakugan and where it was quoted.



G-Man said:


> As for which clan is stronger. Uchiha. You never heard jack about the Hyuuga during Madara's explanation of the past.  It was Uchiha and Senju who dominated things (though to be fair, I got the impression that the Uchiha were much stronger in the past than they were by Itachi's time).



True, but there could be many reasons for such a thing. You didn't hear anything about Yondaime when Madara was speaking to Sasuke, as he stated he feared and admired Shodia, yet Jiraiya and Tsunade stated that Yondaime was the most talented Ninja that Konoha had ever produced.

But yeah, the Uchiha may have been stronger in the past.



G-Man said:


> No thanks to both choices. I'd rather be an Akimichi, Nara, or an Inuzuka, or hell, even being a Yamanaka is preferable.  Just because Ino fails doesn't mean they'd all have to suck.



Ah  Initially, I was going to mention those Clans, but I thought that the Hyuga and Uchiha would be a better choice.



サソリ said:


> This page ends this thread debate ...



Very subtle, but yet most effective. Hakke Kaiten is as unpredictable as bloodline techniques come, unless you are able to see the inner coils on par with that of the Byakugan.


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## Naruto (Jun 18, 2009)

サソリ said:


> This page ends this thread debate ...



A Hyuuga killing fodder and claiming *his *clan is the strongest? Surely this is evidence.


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## Yakkai (Jun 18, 2009)

How can anyone say Uchiha clan? There IS no Uchiha clan anymore!


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## Sunabozu (Jun 18, 2009)

Naruto said:


> A Hyuuga killing fodder and claiming *his* clan is the strongest? Surely this is evidence.



No disrespect, but i don't think they are fodders ... those are perhaps jounins from either sound or sand village. Look at their attires


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## Naruto (Jun 18, 2009)

サソリ said:


> No disrespect, but i don't think they are fodders ... those are perhaps jounins from either sound or sand village. Look at their attires



Names? No?

Fodder.

*P.S.: *The bulk of a village's army is Chuunin, so I sincerely doubt all of those people were Jounin.


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## Evil (Jun 18, 2009)

サソリ said:


> No disrespect, but i don't think they are fodders ... those are perhaps jounins from either sound or sand village. Look at their attires



Chuunin's and Jounin's wear the same attire, and if you want to go with that then I could claim Sasuke owned a field of Jounin's.



Bartallen2 said:


> Though, if Sarutobi did indeed make such a statement, it was due to the fact he knew Orochimaru better than anyone else did. Not even Sasuke during Part II would have attempted to attack Orochimaru at full health, hence why he attacked him at such a damaging state.



Really? Sarutobi barely knew anything of Orochimaru at that point since he hadn't seen him in 10 years and didn't even know he could change bodies.

It's unlikely that Sarutobi had any idea of Orochimaru's true strength and was making a gross estimation of how strong he might have become. 



Bartallen2 said:


> Firstly, your assuming that the Hyuga were not considered, which we have no proof. Plus, the Hyuga are a rather secretive and proud Clan, which could possibly, if not partially, explain their lack of involement for such a thing as Hokage status.



There is plenty of proof, it never comes up in conversation. Immediately after Sarutobi dies they decide they want Jiraiya, but when he declines and offers up Tsunade they are perfectly fine with that.

So they felt that Jiraiya and Tsunade > Any Hyuga.

Later on at this point Kakashi is nominated as the new Hokage, no one else says anything about nominating a Hyuga and then Danzou goes "Nominate me".

Maybe a Hyuga was considered for a second, but it wasn't voiced and they were far enough on the bottom of the ring to not even be mentioned.

The Hyuga aren't any more secretive than any other clan, they just happen to have a caste system and as for being proud. What Proud clan would refuse to take the greatest seat of power in the village that they live in?


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## VoDe (Jun 18, 2009)

サソリ said:


> This page ends this thread debate ...



Then how about this page.

And of course Hyuuga clan is strongest in Konoha because Uchihas was annihilated.


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## House (Jun 18, 2009)

Hyuuga are just a bunch of pricks that think they are strong.

There was no indication that they are really powerful.


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## Bart (Jun 18, 2009)

VoDe said:


> Then how about this page.
> 
> And of course Hyuuga clan is strongest in Konoha because Uchihas was annihilated.



Hey, VoDe  True, but we've already stated that we don't know if the Uchiha Clan during the Uchiha Massacre was stronger or weaker than that of the generation in which you were refering to.

Madara's statement was referring to an event almost 60-70 years, or so, before the Uchiha Massacre.


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## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

Lol, is this still being debated?

Anyone with half a brain and any reading comprehension can tell that Uchiha are superior in every aspect of combat.

When it comes to scouting and such, Hyuuga take it. But in sheer shinobi ability, Uchiha reign supreme.

For gods sake, they're clan died out and people still had positive views of them.


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## Bart (Jun 18, 2009)

Evil said:


> Really? Sarutobi barely knew anything of Orochimaru at that point since he hadn't seen him in 10 years and didn't even know he could change bodies. It's unlikely that Sarutobi had any idea of Orochimaru's true strength and was making a gross estimation of how strong he might have become.



True, Sarutobi didn't know about Orochimaru changing bodies, as so Orochimaur didn't know that Yondaime taught Sarutobi Shiki Fujin. However, the fact that Enma knew that the Kusanagi would hurt him, somewhat suggests that they were both familiar with Orochimaru's skills.



Evil said:


> There is plenty of proof, it never comes up in conversation. Immediately after Sarutobi dies they decide they want Jiraiya, but when he declines and offers up Tsunade they are perfectly fine with that.
> 
> Maybe a Hyuga was considered for a second, but it wasn't voiced and they were far enough on the bottom of the ring to not even be mentioned.
> 
> The Hyuga aren't any more secretive than any other clan, they just happen to have a caste system and as for being proud. What Proud clan would refuse to take the greatest seat of power in the village that they live in?



Those are some rather strong points I must admit. However, there are still elements which Kishimoto has yet to explore regarding the Hyuga. Perhaps it's becuase Neji's father sacrificed himself to protect Konoha, it may be a possible factor.


----------



## Dark Uchiha (Jun 18, 2009)

Hamaru said:


> I know what you are trying to say. The problem is that it does not mean anything. What may have happend in your mind does not matter. The only thing that matters is what was shown so there really isn't a point in talking about what could have happend.


But you see hamaru, before you started quoting me, that was the entire point i was making about this thread.
You cant dispute manga facts the only thing you can dispute is the meaning what kishi meant by something.

you cant dispute naruto being at or is stronger than kakashi, but you can dispute the reasons on _how_ that can be.
you cant dispute madara being defeated at vote by shodai, but you can dispute and make conjecture on _how_ it may have happened.

Thats what i was doing and in this case
YOU CANT DISPUTE WHAT THE MANGA HAS SAID
"Uchiha of the Sharingan and Senju of the thousand arms were rivals for Strongest clan" 
Databook confirms, manga confirms, kakashi, itachi, madara confirmed.
nothing has contradicted that information.



> No, the sharingan is something that is based on the user and can have a HUGE gap depending on who is using it.
> page



Thats all doujutsu users. not all byakugan users can see the tenketsu.
The sharingan offers more abilities than the byakugan thats a plain fact.




> We already seen how unimpressive the basic sharingan user is. All Byakugan users have a 359 degree feild of vision, they all have high chakra control. Hinata is the weakest known Hyuuga and even she can easily shape chakra and she took a shinra tensei.
> page


 
im sure anyone reading this paragraph thought to themeselves. "wow this guy wrote one big fallacy"
1.you have no idea what a basic sharingan user is, WTF is a basic sharingan user. 
-The uchiha cops described as elite sharingan users?
-Itachi
-madara
-sasuke in part 1 after awakening his sharingan?
-fugaku
-shisui
-obito after awakening his sharingan
-Random guy A-F shown on link

2. "_All Byakugan users have a 359 degree feild of vision, they all have high chakra control. "_
all have byakugan 359; yes
all have high chakra control; no

3. " Hinata is the weakest known Hyuuga"
in part 1 she was most _likely_ the weakest "known" hyuuga to us
was she actually the weakest, thats unknown.
your statement borders on "obito/sasuke is the weakest known uchiha"
one of those baseless sentence, just thrown out there

4. _"even she can easily shape chakra and she took a shinra tensei."_
ok? 
So your basis of your argument is using hinata who has grown over the time skip? Then make a baseless assumption that she is the weakest hyuuga "known"*funny *, then try and to prove some kinda point saying that she is something because she formed something with chakra and got owned by shinra tensei? Ridiculousness. 



> She may have been out after one hit but she was hit by a Pain's shinra tensei, while the Uchiha cops had their sharingan out and needed help after Itachi rushed them without a weapon or a jutsu.


Logical fallacy at its best. I mean why do you have to make stuff up to try and make point?
1. Comparing a scene we watch to something that happened off screen
2. the only uchiha that needed help up was the old one, the other two got up.



> It was also a much younger Itachi at that.  So tell me this, which is more impressive? The weakest Hyuga getting hit by the most powerful person shown in the manga so far or 3 average Uchiha who could not even take being hit with a basic hit from Itachi?


lmfao im sure whoever read this little gem of information face palm themselves into a coma at the innateness of it.



> In the flash backs Neji was beating Lee without using his Byakugan or gentle fist.
> link
> 
> Lee also made a comment about Neji being stronger as well.


ah so lee never got stronger i c i c.
Dude, man, woman, w/e
The point is the reader doesnt know how the fight would have gone, if they fought.
lee had greatly increased both his speed/tai and was waiting to see how he will do against neji in the chuunin exam.
lee also said "most likely the strongest person in the exam is on my team"

Which goes to my point that, _if _ a uchiha training specifically on taijutsu and add the sharingan in the mix there is no "automatic win" for a hyuuga in the realm of taijutsu.



> Now Sasuke is a mix, but before Oro and Kakashi he was *mainly* tai. Either way this is not just about Sasuke but the adverage clan member.


 sasuke was a mix before kakashi. he had fire jutsus under his belt before going to team 7.
So the assertion is still absurb no matter how much you try and clean it up.



> That is the point
> 
> If you can't react, you are slow. Itachi heard about Kakashi before their fight and tried to trick him. Unlike those fodder cops, he could not just blindly rush him head on. Kakashi even managed to get a water clone in without Itachi seeing it happen. The difference in skill between Kakashi and those cops are very clear. Kakashi has better reaction speed, speed, and sharingan.


As the point ive been trying to convey is WE DONT KNOW
the uchiha cops could of block 1 punch and got hit with another
you are trying to compare
1. a taijutsu and ninjutsu sitiutation
2. something that happened off sreen to on screen.

nonsensical logic

everything else you said that i didnt quote bordered on nonsense.
im just gonna stop by saying releasing chakra from your points isnt average jyuuken, its when one masters the art of jyuuken. No average hyuuga masters jyuuken genius.

Because i dont want to end up writing 3 page replys on someone who has no idea what they're talking about then uses baseless assumptions as if they are facts.

Just deal with it. Manga has said the uchiha and senju were the strongest. Hyuuga was not mentioned aside the fact that "uchiha defeated _other clans_" Were the hyuuga those other clans? who knows but i tell you one thing, they were not the strongest.

Which pretty much answers this threads question


----------



## Sunabozu (Jun 18, 2009)

Lol this is getting out of hand ...  bartallen i think the majority of the fans here support the Uchihas  Perhaps this debate will not end until the next databook confirms it


----------



## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

Lol, anyone who thinks the basic sharingan is crap has no memory. 

Sasuke's first time using the sharingan saw Haku moving at near light speed. Haku moved so fast, the people looked  like they were standing still.

If a basic sharingan can dodge Haku, it can dodge the jyuuken easily.


----------



## Bart (Jun 18, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Lol, anyone who thinks the basic sharingan is crap has no memory.
> 
> Sasuke's first time using the sharingan saw Haku moving at near light speed. Haku moved so fast, the people looked  like they were standing still.
> 
> If a basic sharingan can dodge Haku, it can dodge the jyuuken easily.



Dodge? Definitely, Haku had such speed, with that Ninjutsu, but yet Sasuke could not dodge Lee with training-weights which had occured after Team Kakashi's encounter with Zabuza and Haku.

And shortly after, Lee, with his weights, had problems against Dosu's speed of sound offenses.


----------



## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Dodge? Definitely, Haku had such speed, with that Ninjutsu, but yet Sasuke could not dodge Lee with training-weights which had occured after Team Kakashi's encounter with Zabuza and Haku.
> 
> And shortly after, Lee, with his weights, had problems against Dosu's speed of sound offenses.



Ever hear of inconsistencies?

He dodged Haku and kept up with Orochimaru but couldn't do shit to Lee. It was Lee hype and inconsistency on Kishi's part.


----------



## Namikaze Naruto (Jun 18, 2009)

MaskedMenace said:


> So Kakashi is an Uchiha now?
> 
> During the bell training he said the Uchiha clan is most powerful clan.



Is this the scans you are refer at?


Hm, i wonder.. Why don't kakashi said "village second most powerful clan since the senjus is the most powerful one? -according to madara-
Btw, he already know how it feels when using sharingan's power, he was called copy ninja for reason. But, he still don't know about byakugan's power, at leasy he never even try to use it. I wanna say that his statement might be biassed.One i recall is, kakashi didn't give that high praise for uchiha when tobi was still alive.

NB: I am sorry my bad, i wrote tobi, but i mean obito for real. Thank you..




Naruto said:


> Names? No?
> 
> Fodder.
> 
> *P.S.: *The bulk of a village's army is Chuunin, so I sincerely doubt all of those people were Jounin.



They are jounin from Oto and Suna, kakashi confirmed it. Hundreds jounins, to be exact were attacking konoha.



VoDe said:


> Then how about this page.
> 
> And of course Hyuuga clan is strongest in Konoha because Uchihas was annihilated.



Again, it was according to madara's statement, right? i prefer to not believe in him. that's my choice, you are all free with yours.. 



Taka Sasuke said:


> Lol, is this still being debated?
> 
> Anyone with half a brain and any reading comprehension can tell that Uchiha are superior in every aspect of combat.
> 
> ...



Combat isn't the only thing that matter in clan clash. Scouting and abilities to gaining more view luke byakugan is extremely useful. Btw, byakugan is superior in close range combat, IMO.

Uchiha just luck for have some damn prodigies, beside that, they aren't that strong. 
Furthermore, because they're died out that makes people fascinated about them. They are filled with their mighty name from the past. If they still alive, i don't think people will praise them like that. That's what we called as hype. That's why maradona still popular still now, more than his popularity at the past.

That's also called 'my opinion'.


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## Bart (Jun 18, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Ever hear of inconsistencies?
> 
> He dodged Haku and kept up with Orochimaru but couldn't do shit to Lee. It was Lee hype and inconsistency on Kishi's part.



My point exactly  But I do feel that there may have too been a hyperbole on Sasuke's Sharingan being awoken, as seen against Killer Bee and Itachi. I do recal Naurto being able to connect blows with Sasuke at the VotE.


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## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

afiandi said:


> Combat isn't the only thing that matter in clan clash. Scouting and abilities to gaining more view luke byakugan is extremely useful. Btw, byakugan is superior in close range combat, IMO.
> 
> Uchiha just luck for have some damn prodigies, beside that, they aren't that strong.
> Furthermore, because they're died out that makes people fascinated about them. They are filled with their mighty name from the past. If they still alive, i don't think people will praise them like that. That's what we called as hype. That's why maradona still popular still now, more than his popularity at the past.
> ...



Combat is the only thing that matters in a fight. The 359 degrees is overrated. They may be able to see and know where their opponent is at all times, but knowing =/= dodging.

They have those prodigies because they are Uchiha. If Uchiha can produce Madara, Shisui, Itachi and Sasuke, it tells you a lot of their potential. Who does the Hyuuga have? Neji?

It's not because people are fascinated. It's been stated several times within the manga that Uchiha are the strongest clan. 

"*Even among Uchiha*, my chakra was especially strong". - Madara. Enough said.

And it's also called, youre opinion doesn't matter. The author, Kakashi, Madara, Orochimaru, Itachi, Deidara, half of the people that attended the chuunin exam finals all agree that Uchiha is the strongest.

Who thinks Hyuuga are? Hiashi? Bartallen? Hamaru?

Yea, like that matters.


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## Naruto (Jun 18, 2009)

サソリ said:


> Lol this is getting out of hand ...  bartallen i think the majority of the fans here support the Uchihas  Perhaps this debate will not end until the next databook confirms it



What the heck are you talking about? I'm no uchiha fan but it's still obvious which clan is the strongest.


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## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> My point exactly  But I do feel that there may have too been a hyperbole on Sasuke's Sharingan being awoken, as seen against Killer Bee and Itachi. I do recal Naurto being able to connect blows with Sasuke at the VotE.



Naruto got utterly pwned up until he went into KN mode. The only time he landed any sort of damage is when his rasengan and Sasuke's chidori went head on.

The kyuubi's chakra moved on it's own, and so did Naruto's. The movements were unorthodox, that's why even a three tomoe sharingan had trouble keeping up.

Hyuuga movements can't be compared to KN movements.


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## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

Naruto said:


> What the heck are you talking about? I'm no uchiha fan but it's still obvious which clan is the strongest.



Well, since there are mixed opinions, who do you think is stronger?


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## Namikaze Naruto (Jun 18, 2009)

Forgive me to interupt your conversation, but i think Hyuuga clans is the stronger one.


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## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

afiandi said:


> Forgive me to interupt your conversation, but i think Hyuuga clans is the stronger one.



You're part of the conversation now

Anyways, your opinion is your opinion. I'm not gonna get pissed, but get ready to get debated to hell.


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## Bart (Jun 18, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Naruto got utterly pwned up until he went into KN mode. The only time he landed any sort of damage is when his rasengan and Sasuke's chidori went head on.
> 
> The kyuubi's chakra moved on it's own, and so did Naruto's. The movements were unorthodox, that's why even a three tomoe sharingan had trouble keeping up.
> 
> Hyuuga movements can't be compared to KN movements.



Hey Taka  Definitely, it was not until Naruto had entered such a Kyuubi state that he managed to gain control of the battle at VotE and that Sasuke purposely did not block the first offense by Naruto.

But yet Killer Bee's movements were linear, yet Sasuke couldn't dodge such offenses. Kakashi manged to capture Sasuke using wire, yet he didn't dodge. Also, when Kidomaru caught Sasuke with he's web and also when Jirobo punched him shortly after.

You stated earlier that Kishimoto stated that the Uchiha Clan is the strongest, but why did he then make references of the Hyuga Clan being the strongest? It is confuses me.


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## seastone (Jun 18, 2009)

afiandi said:


> Is this the scans you are refer at?
> Hm, i wonder.. Why don't kakashi said "village second most powerful clan since the senjus is the most powerful one? -according to madara-



Maybe because both feared as the strongest as Madara said earlier on. So maybe they were consider to be equals. 

Also by your logic why didn't Hiashi say they were the second strongest?

It could be that Kishi at the time did not think of the Senju/Uchiha founding during part 1. 

Either way it is clear to me which clan is stronger. 



> Btw, he already know how it feels when using sharingan's power, he was called copy ninja for reason. But, he still don't know about byakugan's power, at leasy he never even try to use it



How the hell can kakashi use the byakugan's power or even have the option of doing so? 

Also what do you think Kakashi is bias? That Kakashi thinks the Uchiha clan is better then the Hyuuga because he has a sharingan? Kakashi is not that vain of a person.


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## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Hey Taka  Definitely, it was not until Naruto had entered such a Kyuubi state that he managed to gain control of the battle at VotE and that Sasuke purposely did not block the first offense by Naruto.
> 
> But yet Killer Bee's movements were linear, yet Sasuke couldn't dodge such offenses. Kakashi manged to capture Sasuke using wire, yet he didn't dodge. Also, when Kidomaru caught Sasuke with he's web and also when Jirobo punched him shortly after.
> 
> You stated earlier that Kishimoto stated that the Uchiha Clan is the strongest, but why did he then make references of the Hyuga Clan being the strongest? It is confuses me.



KillerBee's movements were not linear. When he wielded the 7 swords, it was impossible for Sasuke to read the movements. But when he did "#8", Sasuke ssaid he had no problem reading the movements.

Also, I don't think Kishi has ever blatantly said that Hyuuga was the strongest. Just Hiashi sayingg that.

Also, the whole Raikage and Hyuuga thing can be interpreted as the reader see's fit.


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## Namikaze Naruto (Jun 18, 2009)

Yes, of course, every act and opinion has its own risk.

And a debate always welcome, since here is a forum which we supposed to have some nice debate and discussion.

           I believe all hyuuga mastered their byakugan, tough in different scale. Even hinata part 1, the one who had been called as a loser could mastered jyuuken, and made her own version of kaiten. If such a clan member could mastered byakugan and still being called as a loser, then mastered byakugan wasn't a big deal, which lead to conclusion that all of them can do the same thing eventually. I never dare to dreaming a uchiha who could mastered his sharingan being called a loser in his clan.

Furthermore, its very hard for uchiha to mastered even their 2 tomoe sharingan. Sasuke, as he was a genius, mastered his sharingan with life-death situation as the trigger. So, it will be very hard for uchihas to mastered 2 tomoe sharingan, most of them wouldn't able to dreaming about MS or EMS.

If hyuuga and uchiha are fighting, it will be very interesting.
It will depend on will madara+itachi join or not. If they are foghting too, that will guarantee uchiha's win. But, if they aren't, then uchiha will lose. Those 3 man, sasuke-madara-itachi are beyond uchiha. I bet they are three strongest uchiha ever. If you could add them, it will be as funny as said namikaze as the strongest clan -if it was a clan- and add naruto and minato to their list. They will simply owned some clan because their Godstrength even if the rest of member are konohamaru's level.

How about that, my friend?


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## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

@afiandi - 

Uchiha don't just have to master their sharingan to be good shinobi. Sasuke, before gaining sharingan, was top of his class. He even had enough chakra to produce a katon goukakyuu, when Kakashi said he shouldn't have enough chakra to be able to. 

Also, we saw a flashback of Itachi's supreme abilities with the shuriken, and he wasn't using the sharingan. These are indications that Uchihas can still be average-above average ninja without the sharingan. 

But the opposite is true with Byakugan. Hyuugas have to be able to use their byakugan to be effective in battle. Without it, they're basically fodder. Uchiha don't need the sharingan to be good in battle.


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## Bart (Jun 18, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> KillerBee's movements were not linear. When he wielded the 7 swords, it was impossible for Sasuke to read the movements. But when he did "#8", Sasuke ssaid he had no problem reading the movements.
> 
> Also, I don't think Kishi has ever blatantly said that Hyuuga was the strongest. Just Hiashi sayingg that.
> 
> Also, the whole Raikage and Hyuuga thing can be interpreted as the reader see's fit.



Hey. Ermm, when Killer Bee wielded those swords, in your opinion, why was it impossible for Sasuke to read his movements? It's awesome that you included "#8" into this debate  

Well, he did include a similar quote in Hiashi's Databook. I agree with such interpretation on the point of Raikage and the Hyuga.


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## Namikaze Naruto (Jun 18, 2009)

MaskedMenace said:


> Maybe because both feared as the strongest as Madara said earlier on. So maybe they were consider to be equals.
> 
> Also by your logic why didn't Hiashi say they were the second strongest?



That's what i called a self-proclaimed thing. madara too just self-proclaimed about his clan being one of most powerful clan. I would suggest that any opinion of character simply didn't count, because everybody seemingly have their own belief.



> It could be that Kishi at the time did not think of the Senju/Uchiha founding during part 1.
> 
> Either way it is clear to me which clan is stronger.
> 
> ...



It makes sense, so why not?
I will simply said that Mercedes Benz is the best car because i already got my E-class luxury car. By logic, i may won't even consider ferrari or BMW as the best car. That's one part of human being.
And biassed is part from human being too.
Even myself realize i might have some biassed in this discussion, for expample: 'i like hyuuga and hate sauce' thing will count as a biassed too..



Taka Sasuke said:


> KillerBee's movements were not linear. When he wielded the 7 swords, it was impossible for Sasuke to read the movements. But when he did "#8", Sasuke ssaid he had no problem reading the movements.
> 
> Also, I don't think Kishi has ever blatantly said that Hyuuga was the strongest. Just Hiashi sayingg that.
> 
> Also, the whole Raikage and Hyuuga thing can be interpreted as the reader see's fit.



Just realize that hyuuga and uchiha just did some self-proclaimed thing back then. If we want to discuss thing, let put characters opinion down, and start to use our logic and reasonable skill with their -uchiha&hyuuga- powers as food of tought.

I still think hyuuga is the stronger one..


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## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

The Madara self proclamation argument really doesn't work. Madara hated the Uchiha and Senju. There really is no reason for him to gloat about the people he loathes.

I still think Uchiha are stronger


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## αce (Jun 18, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Hey. Ermm, when Killer Bee wielded those swords, in your opinion, why was it impossible for Sasuke to read his movements? It's awesome that you included "#8" into this debate
> 
> Well, he did include a similar quote in Hiashi's Databook. I agree with such interpretation on the point of Raikage and the Hyuga.



Well, the sharingan reads the tiny signals the body gives off to predict the next movements, right?

So when Bee held the 8 swords, they were spread out throughout his body. Each of them in a different place, and each of them facing a different direction. The swords themselves don't give off any indication of movement, and each of his body parts had to move in different directions for the swords to be swung differently.

I really can't say why he couldn't read the movements, but it had something to do with those.


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## Namikaze Naruto (Jun 18, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> @afiandi -
> 
> Uchiha don't just have to master their sharingan to be good shinobi. Sasuke, before gaining sharingan, was top of his class. He even had enough chakra to produce a katon goukakyuu, when Kakashi said he shouldn't have enough chakra to be able to.




So was neji too.. Again, sasuke is a different thing. I will use obito as example, which i believe by the way kakashi treat him, he wasn't at top tier in his class. How about some 'aunt and uncle' in sasuke memories who seemingly wasn't even a ninja. 



> Also, we saw a flashback of Itachi's supreme abilities with the shuriken, and he wasn't using the sharingan. These are indications that Uchihas can still be average-above average ninja without the sharingan.
> 
> But the opposite is true with Byakugan. Hyuugas have to be able to use their byakugan to be effective in battle. Without it, they're basically fodder. Uchiha don't need the sharingan to be good in battle.



That doesn't matter, in my opinion. Why? because those hyuugas could activate their byakugan in no time.  The 'hyuuga have to be able...' didn't change thing a lot. 

Uchiha's power list:
Katon ninjutsu -their trade mark, after all-
Sharingan -just a few/elite member can master it, for additional information-
Genjutsu master -thanks to sharingan-
Ninjutsu copier -again, thanks to their sharingan-
Taijutsu predict -sharingan again-
MS -the decisive factor-

Hyuuga's power list:
Gentle taijutsu -gentle but hust-
<=360 degree of vision -so powerful and useful-
Range of divination -maybe just some member could use, but since hinata could do it, i will assume most of the members could too-
Jyuuken -OMG, it will kill non-sharingan user 

So, it clear that it will depend on their eyes. Which hyuuga have alot advantages since they could activaye their 'eye' with ;ess effort and of course, isn't draining their chakra.
About MS, that was high technique that i doubt common uchiha even know about that, not mentioning its pre-requisites.

Okay, i will leave for now and rejoin again tomorrow, if this thread still alive.
Thanks for the discussion, i love it.



Bartallen2 said:


> Hey. Ermm, when Killer Bee wielded those swords, in your opinion, why was it impossible for Sasuke to read his movements? It's awesome that you included "#8" into this debate
> 
> Well, he did include a similar quote in Hiashi's Databook. I agree with such interpretation on the point of Raikage and the Hyuga.



I agree with you.


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## Attor (Jun 18, 2009)

Wow... 13 pages debating a canon fact. Maybe i'll make a thread tomorrow about who Naruto's father is. 



Hamaru said:


> The other clans don't have that much chakra. The Uchiha, Hyuuga, Shino's clan, and the Shinji clan are the only clans that have shown good chakra compacity. Then there are  just random nin from random clans that have a lot of chakra. The only 2 people we have to really compare is Neji and Sasuke's chakra since they are around the same age. With that being said, Neji easily had more chakra before Oro gave Sasuke the curese mark.



 When did I say _every_ other Clan had great Chakra? I simply said there are examples, other than the Uchiha, of clans with great Chakra (like the ones you mentioned) Uchiha, however, as implied in the Manga, have the greatest (perhaps alongside the Senju.)  




Hamaru said:


> Your forgetting that Madara was not even noticed by anyone so that shows that he did not use much chakra when helping out Itachi.



Making claims about a massacre you know nothing about.  



> There were no huge explosions or massive attacks either. So the Uchiha chakra compacity goes unjustified by the beat down that they were given.



Of course not, but that means *nothing.* There are other factors involved, involving Chakra capacity that justify the Uchiha-clan defeat in the massacre entirely. Itachi had his MS activated, a formidable weapon that would obviously help him immensely by provided an advantage above other clan members that didn't have the technique. Also, Itachi was 'crying tears of blood' we known blood occurs from the eyes when the techniques are used, (there would be no blood to cry if he was not using MS tchniques ) which would have also helped him against the clan. 

Furthermore, Madara was present. Why _wouldn't_ he use his S+T Jutsu? And possibly other EMS techniques to his advantage against the clan while he was there? Of course he would have, you would naturally use the skills you have to your advantage in crucial situations like those, and like Itachi's MS, that would have helped immensely with wiping out the clan. 

So, let us summarise once again: Being wiped out by an individual using MS techniques, and an Uchiha God with the powers we know he has available (EMS, S+T Justu), in an ambush situation, does not = a weak clan, and do you honestly think the Hyuuga would have faired any better?


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## Shadow050 (Jun 18, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Well, the sharingan reads the tiny signals the body gives off to predict the next movements, right?
> 
> So when Bee held the 8 swords, they were spread out throughout his body. Each of them in a different place, and each of them facing a different direction. The swords themselves don't give off any indication of movement, and each of his body parts had to move in different directions for the swords to be swung differently.
> 
> I really can't say why he couldn't read the movements, but it had something to do with those.



beofre i make my REAL post... i just to point out that sasuke wasn't using the sharingan when he was blocking kiraabee's swords. he only activates it when he's about to be kileld for the first time, and he gets a scratch on the face.

sharignan not on:
This?
sharingan on for the first time to just barely escape death:
This?
gets scratch on the face - proving that it's not perfect:
This?

but it doesn't help him THAT much when he goes to attack again, and kirabee blocks chidori sword, and then turns sasuke into a pin cushion... except using his swords.

blocks chidori sword
This?
pin cushion:
This?

later in the fight, when sasuke deflects the lariat attack, sasuke says that because bee is moving in linear movements, he has not trouble reading him with his sharingan.

claim about linear movement and prediction:
This?

shadow knows his stuff!


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## Shadow050 (Jun 18, 2009)

Attor said:


> Wow... 13 pages debating a canon fact. Maybe i'll make a thread tomorrow about who Naruto's father is.
> 
> Of course not, but that means *nothing.* There are other factors involved, involving Chakra capacity that justify the Uchiha-clan defeat in the massacre entirely. Itachi had his MS activated, a formidable weapon that would obviously help him immensely by provided an advantage above other clan members that didn't have the technique. Also, I*tachi was 'crying tears of blood' we known blood occurs from the eyes when the techniques are used*, (there would be no blood to cry if he was not using MS tchniques ) which would have also helped him against the clan.
> 
> ...



umm.... itachi did NOT use MS techniques on his clansmen. if he did he would have been CRAZY tired... and does the 13 year old appear to be? NOPE.
he wasn't crying tears of blood....
Blocking Cero
that ain't blood.... it would have been dark, not light... it was an actual tear.
there was nothing burning, and we know tsukuyomi can't be spammed, so he didn't use that to kill an entire clan either.

i'm not saying it necessarily means the clan was weak... but NO it wouldn't have happened to the hyuuga - certainly not like that - yeah, the would have done far batter. 13 year itachi isn't beating someone like hiashi without using MS techs....


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## Naruto (Jun 18, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Hyuugas have to be able to use their byakugan to be effective in battle. Without it, they're basically fodder. Uchiha don't need the sharingan to be good in battle.



Okay now I'm gonna have to say something in favor of the hyuuga here.

Sasuke was top of his class. K. Granted, Sasuke was always gifted. He had slightly above average chakra and he was naturally talented in the ninja arts.

But you know what? Lee kicked his ass. Lee has BELOW average talent. Lee shouldn't even be a ninja. But he trained so hard, he was faster and stronger than Sasuke.

And why did Sasuke eventually catch up to him? That's right. The sharingan.

When Sasuke fought against Killerbee, what happened? He got his ass handed to him REALLY BAD. Until he activated his mangekyo sharingan. 

Do you see a pattern here? It's not that Sasuke is a bad ninja, by any means. Sasuke is a great shinobi, but his SHARINGAN is what really sets him apart. And frankly, it's really lame. He would have lost countless battles by now if it wasn't for his sharingan.

Same with Itachi. In fact, in Itachi's case, it's even worse. Itachi is very good on paper, but when it comes down to it, who has he ever beaten without his MANGEKYO sharingan? Nobody that's relevant. Not one named shinobi. Itachi might as well have been a walking corpse with a sentient mangekyo sharingan.

Itachi was a one trick pony.

Now look at the Hyuuga. Despite the fact that they incorporate the Byakugan into their fighting style, they actually HAVE TO FIGHT. It takes SKILL to use the Jyuuken. It's not just *"oh hai look at my byakugan I win"*.

So please, do understand that while the Uchiha were stronger, they were stronger ONLY because of their bloodline limit, which is fucking ridiculously broken.


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## Attor (Jun 18, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> umm.... itachi did NOT use MS techniques on his clansmen. if he did he would have been CRAZY tired... and does the 13 year old appear to be? NOPE.
> he wasn't crying tears of blood....
> Blocking Cero
> that ain't blood.... it would have been dark, not light... it was an actual tear.
> there was nothing burning, and we know tsukuyomi can't be spammed, so he didn't use that to kill an entire clan either.



Actually, Madara said he was crying tears of blood.  Unless you think he was _lying_, but what motive would he have to lie about that?  

Blood = MS usage, and if not, why would he activate his MS for no reason? 



> i'm not saying it necessarily means the clan was weak... but NO it wouldn't have happened to the hyuuga - certainly not like that - yeah, the would have done far batter. 13 year itachi isn't beating someone like hiashi without using MS techs....



Lol what? The only reason it wouldn't happen to the Hyuuga is because of their position in the village (Uchihas were in the corner so would be easier to be more stealthy, with no interference.)

And why are you glorifying Hyuuga individuals, but not taking into account the great Uchiha that had to be defeated like Uchiha Fugaku? Seems like you're not taking enough into account here. Both Hyuuga are Uchiha had great Ninja, and Uchiha were the damn police you know. 

And it wasn't just '13 year old Itachi' it was 'eighty year old Madara' as well.


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## principito (Jun 18, 2009)

Naruto said:


> Sasuke was top of his class. K. Granted, Sasuke was always gifted. He had slightly above average chakra and he was naturally talented in the ninja arts.
> 
> So please, do understand that while the Uchiha were stronger, they were stronger ONLY because of their bloodline limit, which is fucking ridiculously broken.



Let me jump in too.

Orochimaru was talented with no bloodline limit, So this Sasuke was top of his class goes out the window. 



Attor said:


> And why are you glorifying Hyuuga individuals, but not taking into account the great Uchiha that had to be defeated like Uchiha Fugaku? Seems like you're not taking enough into account here. Both Hyuuga are Uchiha had great Ninja, and Uchiha were the damn police you know.
> 
> And it wasn't just '13 year old Itachi' it was 'eighty year old Madara' as well.




Uchiha were police for political reasons, nothing to do with their power


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## Attor (Jun 18, 2009)

principito said:


> Uchiha were police for political reasons, nothing to do with their power



They still carried out the duties and dealt with problems like a police force which requires skill it itself.


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## principito (Jun 18, 2009)

Attor said:


> They still carried out the duties and dealt with problems like a police force which requires skill it itself.



yeah, nobody questions that. But this fact by any means tells that they were stronger than the hyuuga.

My opinion on this matter is, that a reasonable solid fact comparison is impossible since the white clan has never been explores properly in the manga, BUT the fact that byakugan actually needs trainning and each individual might take it to its own personal level, makes me beleive that they are stronger. Red clan might have Itachis or Sasukes, but 2 or 3 ninja don't make a clan.

The fact that Itachi killed his clan with or without help tells you how big the gap between genious and fodder was. This doesnt happen in the white clan.


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## Attor (Jun 18, 2009)

principito said:


> The fact that Itachi killed his clan with or without help tells you how big the gap between genious and fodder was. This doesnt happen in the white clan.



You think the Hyuuga would have faired better? Imagine the Hyuuga faced the same threat in the same conditions, would they have a better chance? Also, don't forget Itachi had Madara helping him and we don't yet know just how powerful this man is and just how much he helped, we know he has EMS and we have seen a glimpse of his power (S+T Justu) and if he has other techniques like that then he is going to be insane.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 18, 2009)

there are far too many pages with long detailed explanations for me to read through and sit through reading before i'd want to respond, and if i did then i'd be directly responding to too-old stuff... so i'll start from scratch.

technically... going by the manga and databook they'd be EVEN.. both would be "the strongest" and neither would be "stronger"

first i'll state who's stronger as a clan... *the hyuuga*.

people have already mentioned that ALL hyuugas get the byakugan and ALL have great chakra control (yes, they ALL do... as they ALL use gentle fist - some better than others). these are facts. 

people think that the byakugan's abilities don't expand, but they do -we know the distance it can see expands... the area the baykguan covers expands too. we know that with "higher byakugan levels" one can see more than the others... such as tenketsu... and we know that there are more abilties in the potential for the byakugan and therefore the hyuuga.

obviously the sharingan's abiltiies expand and evolve and stuff, but no one denies that so there's no need to cover that right now.

the hyuuga clan is called the strongest numerous times throughout the databooks. i've only seen the uchiha clan called "the strongest" in the latest databook in sasuke's bio - it's said twice and the first time there's quotes around it. in that same databook, on neji's bio it says "from the clan 'styling themselves as the strongest clan'" - also in quotes. 
in the previous databook entries... 
for the hyuuga
1) -in hiashi's bio
neji's bio
it's said 3 times on his page. notice, they have HIM quoted the first time, but the next time is said as "the force said to be the konoha's strongest is here" and the last time it's just flat out said that he is "the head of the strongest bloodline in konoha"

for the uchiha
1) - on sasuke's databook 2 bio
neji's bio
_but the thing here is that it's in quotes, and is worded very weird. it says "even in the 'strongest' uchiha, itachi is still the stronger."_

in the manga... i checked the raw to see what kakashi ACTUALLY said because i've seen a translation where he called the uchiha the "greatest" clan, not the strongest - actually... he didn't say it here either, he says most powerful. i've posted MANY times that there is a difference between power and strength, despite how people tend to use them interchangably. 

here's what he says word for word in japanese:
"*sato no ichban ERIITO uchiha ichizoku no chikara...[/B]" 
(yeah, that "eriito" means elite. it's writte in katakana, which is for foreign words and sometimes names)
then he says:
 "tanoshimi da naa..."

which means:
"the village's number one elite, the uchiha clan's power..." 
the second part means:
"it should be fun, right...[?]" or "I'm looking forward to it..."
(the second part is a common way to translate that sentence. the first opinion i put is more of a literal one. yes, i can provide ways for you all to double check everything i've translated)

he's being sarcastic lol. the uchiha ARE supposed to be elite... and he's taking sasuke very lightly... which is why moments later, he's like he'll acknowledge that sasuke is different from the other two...  
Blocking Cero
after commenting on how he didn't have time to read come come paradise lol. 

note - i only tend to translate when it's controversey of things said in the manga/databook to clear things up with a more accurate, less confusing or controversey inspiring translation. it's common knowledge that translators who do the scans of the manga we read online, OFTEN "take liberty" in translating things - similar to how things happen on english dubs sometimes... just less corny. 

other than that... jsut about everyone else's comments can be reduced to them being biased. or can be understood as people fearing the uchiha or knowingthem to be strong due to the uchiha clan being extremely prideful and boasting their power whenever they could lol. 

madara's story isn't iron clad.
he doesn't even include the hyuuga in his story about the formation of the leaf... but in the databook it already confirmed that they are a noble family and that they were involved with the founding of the leaf village. in madara's story, notice how the hyuuga symbol isn't even seen.... it'd be easier to actually believe everything in his story if their symbol (SOMETHING... the ying/yang symbol or the flame on hinata's jacket... something related tot he hyuuga)was there.... but like i said, it wasn't.

i'll type more when i can...*


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## principito (Jun 18, 2009)

Attor said:


> *You think the Hyuuga would have faired better?* Imagine the Hyuuga faced the same threat in the same conditions, would they have a better chance? Also, don't forget Itachi had Madara helping him and we don't yet know just how powerful this man is and just how much he helped, we know he has EMS and we have seen a glimpse of his power (S+T Justu) and if he has other techniques like that then he is going to be insane.




I don't really understand your point here, but what I mean is that given that all hyuuga members are very strong, no 1-man army could've whiped the entire clan.

You could make Naruto, choiju, ten-ten and konohamaru be clan Uzimaki and even though Naruto kicks ass that doesn't make his clan the strongest.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 18, 2009)

Attor said:


> Actually, Madara said he was crying tears of blood.  Unless you think he was _lying_, but what motive would he have to lie about that?
> 
> Blood = MS usage, and if not, why would he activate his MS for no reason?



when did he say that again? mind posting a link? (no sarcasm intended)


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## Attor (Jun 18, 2009)

^ It's on the second page. You said he wasn't crying tears of blood, and didn't use MS techniques on his clansmen. 



principito said:


> I don't really understand your point here, but what I mean is that given that all hyuuga members are very strong, no 1-man army could've whiped the entire clan.
> 
> You could make Naruto, choiju, ten-ten and konohamaru be clan Uzimaki and even though Naruto kicks ass that doesn't make his clan the strongest.



Well this thread is comparing the strengths of Hyuuga and Uchiha, it is only relevant to mention the massacre as a weakness of the Uchiha clan in comparison if you think the Hyuuga would have faired better in that situation.


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## principito (Jun 18, 2009)

Attor said:


> Well this thread is comparing the strengths of Hyuuga and Uchiha, it is only relevant to mention the massacre as a weakness of the Uchiha clan if you think the Hyuuga would have faired better in that situation.



As a clan? yes; here's my line of thinking:

- A clan's strength is not given by the individual, but as a group
- Hyuuga's might not have god-like shinobi like Itachi (I prefer to think that it hasn't been shown)
- Hyuugas individuals are all strong. Their red counterpart have a big gap (appearently) between weak and strong
- One single Hyuuga wouldn't be able to kill an entire clan, not even if this individual was the strongest.
- This would resume to: Uchiha's few individuals might be stronger (Itachi, Sasuke, Madara) but as a clan Hyuuga's are more powerful:

Example:
50 uchiha's vs 50 Hyuuga's: People like Itachi or Sasuke would require the attention of at least 3 powerful hyuugas to even things out, but eventually it would be like 30 hyuuga's vs 3 Uchiha's. Hyuuga win

Sasuke vs Neji: based on what we've seen Sasuke hands Neji his own ass before he poses for the 64-strike combo.


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## AuxunauxiaNoname (Jun 18, 2009)

Current clan versus current clan all status considered. If Sasuke came back with all the power he has now, do you believe he has the power to just slaughter the entire Hyuuga clan? 

Why of course! Sasuke is UBER. He can defeat any amount of people anytime anywhere, because he is UBER. No one and nothing can kill him except maybe Naruto in full Kyuubi mode. All the Hyuugas would just die. 

Itachi is also UBER. He killed his entire clan. He can kill any amount of people anywhere and anytime except for Sasuke who became more uber than him through training by Orochimaru who taught Sasuke too well and got himself killed. Itachi is dead. If he was alive however, he would be able to genjutsu an indefinitely large amount of clan members and then kill them all very quickly before any of the Hyuugas can figure out it is a genjutsu. This is because Hyuugas are dumb and don't know anything about genjutsu and whenever stuck in a genjutsu cannot get out at all. Also, Itachi's genjutsu is the Uchiha uber genjutsu, which can beat any amount of people, anywhere, anytime and even if all of Konoha came to Hyuuga clan's aide it wouldn't matter. Itachi was just that uber, and Sasuke is now even more uber than him.

Yes. Uchiha clan is uber. The Hyuugas have no ubers... and Fate seems to hate Hyuugas.

000



^Wow I forgot Madara in that shpeel. How COULD I?


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## Sango-chan (Jun 18, 2009)

All I have to say is without The Hyuga clan the Uchiha clan would be nothing!


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## Evil (Jun 18, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*

Databook 3

With their overwhelming doujutsu, they subdued the other clans one by one.

Sole opposition to the proudly unrivaled Senju clan

Caption: The two clans feared as the strongest

Among the shinobi crowd, there were two clans all nations would unanimously employ. The Senju clan and the Uchiha clan. Should a country hire Senju, the opposing country would hire the Uchiha: before anyone knew, it became a recognizable pattern, as both sides were endowed with outstanding power. Undoubtedly, the latter periods of the war era had become a conflict between the two of them.

Databook 2

Furthermore, their ability which possessed the foremost power in Konoha, saying that they brought present Konoha's prosperity would not be an overstatement.


Those were some of the items I found after a 5 minute search, Uchiha were the strongest and the two Uchiha that are left are alone stronger than the Hyuga as a whole.*


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 18, 2009)

firstly, I must say this test of strength should NOT be used with established characters or clan strength. there are a few reasons why


Each clan has members that range from genin to jounin. also, all uchiha jounin have sharingan, but all jounin hyuuga do not have potent byakugan on the level of the main branch.


The uchiha have the potential to have EXTREMELY varied jutsu lists, so it is unfair to reference the shown uchiha since they have not shown their potential. it is unfair to reference shown hyuuga since each one we have seen in action is apart of the head family, and are the strongest of their kind.


*Spoiler*: __ 



now. using the clans is unfair since most people feel compulsed to use the fourth generation uchiha (people who were alive after the fourth ninja war.).
these uchiha were at their weakest, were in a peacefull enviroment so only the shinobi had the sharingan. it still took an uchiha to beat them so that is something.

third generation uchiha were not police or free to choose a non-shinobi profession. EVERY ONE was a shinobi, so every one who fought had the sharingan, since it powers up during need in battle, or emotional stress.
also uchiha can share jutsu, so obviously uchiha in constant battle are FAR stronger than uchiha confined to a ghetto. when one gets stronger, all of them could.




now. the hyuuga do not have the same potential for growth. they all have to spend long times practicing, and do not instantly understand their arts. they spend far more time learning than an Uchiha would and for less.

so the only fair way to test this is to have an uchiha and a hyuuga raised in a vacuum. both in a stark room. 

both the uchiha and the hyuuga have enhanced their kekkei genkai to its highest natural level. both are physically equal in speed, strength, and stamina. 

both are using the same generic martial art. lets say something similar to... pankration, so that they have knowledge of all hand strikes, kicks, grapples, throws, and counters. nothing fancy, just a solid military style of hand to hand.


 now lets see what they have from their kekkei genkai. 

*Uchiha*

copying any form of jutsu. (useless in this fight since no jutsu will be used.)

"clairity of perception". this is every different form of sight the sharingan has.(chakra sight, movement tracking, movement precognition, sight through genjutsu, enhanced eyesight, ect.)


optical genjutsu. through this an uchiha can simply glance once at someone and initiate genjutsu with eye-contact. the higher the chakra, the more powerful and complex the genjutsu.

*hyuuga*


telescopic sight.

359 degree sight.

"x-ray" sight. really penetrating would be a better term.

chakra sight.

kirakakuei sight.

tenketsu sight... (only extremely strong branch members and main family members should have this, but it is most likely possible that even the weakest blooded hyuuga can strengthen their byakugan with training. uchiha can train their sharingan, and so can hyuuga. (I just don't know the hyuuga's extent.)


with those as kekkei genkai powers, the uchiha wins almost every time. the uchiha can track all of the hyuuga's movement and evade it since they are of similar physical strength. 

before they even get into physical combat, the uchiha has the ability to use a genjutsu. most might argue that the hyuuga could still see the uchiha without looking eye to eye, but without knowledge they would not know to look away or even what happened. one paralyisis jutsu and the uchiha is free to set up a coup-de-gras.

the hyuuga cannot really win, because in a straight up hand to hand fight, without using any secret knowledge, the only advantage they may have is acurate pressure point striking (no jyuuken) and spacial awareness, which is invalid in a plain open gymnasium-type setting.

hyuuga may get a 2/10 win due to luck. the natural benefits of an uchiha are just greater than a hyuuga's in a fight.


so I hope people read and reflect upon this. there is no way that a hyuuga could win against an uchiha of equal stats in a fist-fight. using nothing but their kekkei genkai and their fists. if you allowed a plot developed hyuuga and uchiha fight, the uchiha would kill the hyuuga mercilously

with plot, a hyuuga MAY know the hakke jyuuken style and have the average amount of jutsu including summons, and kinjutsu.

with plot an uchiha will have a LARGE amount of jutsu preformable (kakashi has at least 1000 and he is a hakumo), a mastered sharingan, summons, kinjutsu, the possibility to own a bijuu, mangekyou sharingan and eien mangekyou sharingan.

so yeah... UCHIHA WIN.


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## AuxunauxiaNoname (Jun 18, 2009)

You forgot chakra manipulation for Hyuugas. They have that twirly swirly chakra ultimate defense thing. Maybe it's moot, but add that anyway.

Don't ignore the coolest jutsu Hyuugas have! That's not fair at all...

Hyuugas can spin! See sig ^_^


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## olehoncho (Jun 18, 2009)

People really like to underestimate the strength of the Byakugan vision.

Zabuza pointed out the great weakness of the Sharingan, it's useless if you can't see in the first place.  Dust, Mist, Smoke, Darkness, even Exceptional light for that matter.  It's like Karate Kid III all over again, "If a man can't see, he can't fight."
No sight = no insight, no copying, and no genjutsu.

Not so with the Hyuuga.  The only way to take them out at long range is with freaking pinpoint accuracy seeking missiles (arrows as the case happened to be).

Get a couple of smoke bombs, or have the Uchiha use their coveted fire jutsus, and the Uchiha effectively shoot themselves in the foot.

So which fatal flaw is more crippling?


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## Izumi (Jun 18, 2009)

Ain't the Hyuugas ancestors of the Uchihas?


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 18, 2009)

Izumi said:


> Ain't the Hyuugas ancestors of the Uchihas?



rumored, so they could be and at the same time not


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 18, 2009)

AuxunauxiaNoname said:


> You forgot chakra manipulation for Hyuugas. They have that twirly swirly chakra ultimate defense thing. Maybe it's moot, but add that anyway.
> 
> Don't ignore the coolest jutsu Hyuugas have! That's not fair at all...
> 
> Hyuugas can spin! See sig ^_^



all of that is apart of hyuuga-ryu jyuuken. that is a learned technique and not truely apart of the kekkei genkai, so it is unfair to use it.

 the reason being, with one hour of a hyuuga learning the kindergarden basics of jyuuken, an uchiha could learn one jutsu per minute, ending up with sixty new jutsu. in the years it takes for a hyuuga to learn how to perfect jyuuken, an uchiha could be a monster.

see what I mean? in that time an uchiha could also learn how to use chakra scalpels offensively, and make jyuuken look silly. uchiha's are nerfed to hell. always remember that.




olehoncho said:


> People really like to underestimate the strength of the Byakugan vision.
> 
> Zabuza pointed out the great weakness of the Sharingan, it's useless if you can't see in the first place.  Dust, Mist, Smoke, Darkness, even Exceptional light for that matter.  It's like Karate Kid III all over again, "If a man can't see, he can't fight."
> No sight = no insight, no copying, and no genjutsu.
> ...



keep in mind. kirigakure no jutsu is not normal mist. it is enhanced by chakra, so the ability to see chakra through it is negated. for example, it is like trying to see a specific blue dot in a background of the same color. they can still see through normal mist because of their enhanced sight.


hyuuga have the fatal flaw of not being able to copy jutsu instantly or track movement as well as the sharingan.

that sucks ALOT.


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## AuxunauxiaNoname (Jun 18, 2009)

Isn't the kaiten possible because of the whole 360 degree vision? I thought it was, but maybe I'm wrong. If not then he wouldn't need Byakugan to use it right? And then it wouldn't be a bloodline jutsu... it would just be a jutsu. From my understanding the ability to perform kaiten stems from bloodline ability.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 19, 2009)

AuxunauxiaNoname said:


> Isn't the kaiten possible because of the whole 360 degree vision? I thought it was, but maybe I'm wrong. If not then he wouldn't need Byakugan to use it right? And then it wouldn't be a bloodline jutsu... it would just be a jutsu. From my understanding the ability to perform kaiten stems from bloodline ability.



no. kaiten is a hijutsu (secret art) of the hyuuga clan. it is actually a taijutsu ability, since it relies on the use of chakra without the need for hand seals and emits from the body directly.

also you are right for the second one. you do not need a byakugan to use it. it is simply emiting chakra from every pore and spinning around quickly. the thing is it is maximized just like jyuuken with the byakugan. one who has a byakugan would be able to get the timing down FAR better for sneak attacks.

jyuuken on a whole is usable by anyone who trains their chakra pores. you can hit someone in a general area and cause damage. the byakugan just makes it easier to do so. rediculously easier.

tenketsu strikes are damn near impossible though. the points are so small that without a byakugan, one would need to be a medical genius to hit the pinhead sized spots. and a damn good shot too.

tenketsu are ONLY able to be seen nakedly by strong hyuuga, that is why they train in jyuuken. because it is convenient and powerful. and childeren can dominate at it if they are trained properly since it does not take strength.


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## AuxunauxiaNoname (Jun 19, 2009)

Aren't all jutsus learned techniques? If you don't learn something you can't possibly use it right?

And as for jutsu copying. Knowing how to use the jutsu is one thing, but isn't being able to actually perform to perfection that particular jutsu a different thing? Mental knowledge does not equal body capability. In order to perfect the new jutsu the Uchiha would have to practice it. 

You seem to have the understanding that a ninja with Sharingan automatically just gets all the jutsus he wants with no effort.

Also, you can't copy jutsus in a vacuum where other people who use other jutsus can't be copied from.

Aside from that. Tracking down ninja with advanced techniques and copying their techniques either forcibly or with their expressed permission also can't be that easy. A ninja in general would not want you to just copy their technique, especially if they're from a different village or a different clan. If the jutsu was valuable enough that you would want this jutsu, you would have to expend some effort in obtaining it.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 19, 2009)

AuxunauxiaNoname said:


> Aren't all jutsus learned techniques? If you don't learn something you can't possibly use it right?



yes, but keep in mind, kekkei genkai are not jutsu. they are jutsu like abilities that use the bodies chakra to create powerful, unique effects.
needless to say, you CAN preform unique jutsu with a kekkei genkai as a medium.
for example, mokuton allows the manipulation of wood and chakra, and it can be preformed without seals. however complex jutsu can be preformed by adding seals to the mokuton element. things that were not possible before. 






> And as for jutsu copying. Knowing how to use the jutsu is one thing, but isn't being able to actually perform to perfection that particular jutsu a different thing? Mental knowledge does not equal body capability. In order to perfect the new jutsu the Uchiha would have to practice it.



that is why I disabled jutsu in the fight scenario. because they come from outside knowledge. also, to correct you slightly. all e-d rank jutsu would be preformable to an uchiha with a sharingan. they naturally have strong bodies, and all ninjutsu until c-rank are NINPOU. those are non-elemental jutsu.

also, jutsu are preformed by using chakra and seals. after copying it, regardless of the ability of the person preforming the jutsu, the uchiha would preform it to his best ability since jutsu success is determined by chakra amount and skill with manipulation. once the bare minimum is learned the uchiha is either better or worse than the first preformer due to those two stats. increase those and ALL jutsu are preformed stronger.





> You seem to have the understanding that a ninja with Sharingan automatically just gets all the jutsus he wants with no effort.



as long as the sharingan is on and he sees the seals, yes. that is absolutely right. although the effort lies in the miniscule amount of chakra needed to power the sharingan.




> Also, you can't copy jutsus in a vacuum where other people who use other jutsus can't be copied from.



I don't understand... the uchiha isn't copying anything. he is just fighting the hyuuga. VALE TUDO style. (think mma, but any natural ability is allowed.)




> Aside from that. Tracking down ninja with advanced techniques and copying their techniques either forcibly or with their expressed permission also can't be that easy. A ninja in general would not want you to just copy their technique, especially if they're from a different village or a different clan. If the jutsu was valuable enough that you would want this jutsu, you would have to expend some effort in obtaining it. Why would this be easier than practicing a skill you already have and perfecting that skill?



there is no need to copy secret jutsu. simply e-c rank. every jutsu one needs to dominate is within that realm. an uchiha who knows every genin rank skill is EXTREMELY variable, uses jutsu that aren't extremely complicated to preform, cost less chakra to successfully complete, and needs less chakra manipulation to pull off.

not only that but genin rank skills are really easy to come across, and not anything so powerfull that it would cause a stir if you learned them all. not only that but it would be nothing to pay someone to do it. ninja are for hire after all. that thar is a C-rank mission. show off all of the C-rank jutsu you know.

all one would need to do is hire one jounin a day for maybe a month, or ten for a few days.



an uchiha with all c-rank and below jutsu would DESTROY a hyuuga who has basic level jyuuken. even high level jyuuken users would still fall prey to a c-rank ninjutsu using uchiha of similar strength.


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## AuxunauxiaNoname (Jun 19, 2009)

Are C-rank jutsu really powerful? 

Oh yah, and I just thought of something. Do Sharingan users need to have another person perform the jutsu in order to use it? Could they use Sharingan to learn a technique from something like, say a video, scroll, or a book? Just out of curiosity that question. I don't remember that ever happening in the manga. I've read it in fanfiction though... that doesn't count at all though lmao X3

And why would pitting an Uchiha who has had the time to learn all C-rank and below jutsus against a Hyuuga who has been only learning jyuuken be fair? 

I don't know if I'm interpreting correctly, but it seems you're saying that in the time that a Hyuuga can learn only basic jyuuken an Uchiha would have already learned all C-rank and below jutsus.

So all C-rank and below jutsus besides jyuuken are really really easy to learn, but combined are more affective against a Hyuuga opponent using only what he has practiced of jyuuken. 

Is jyuuken really that hard to get?

Umm, so in your point of view, how many jutsus could an Uchiha genius learn in the time it takes for an equally intelligent and capable Hyuuga to perfect the Jyuuken?


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## Missing_Nin (Jun 19, 2009)

too bad the main house also keeps the branch house down.  and there are a whole lot more hyuuga's that are branch members.  so they suck balls.  plus, no one can even match up to itachi, madara, or sasuke.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 19, 2009)

AuxunauxiaNoname said:


> Are C-rank jutsu really powerful?


yes. c-rank jutsu are just when jutsu become REALLY usefull without being signature jutsu that people use. elemental jutsu make their debut in c-rank.
some other good c-rank jutsu are:

sen'ei jashu
puppet string jutsu
body switch jutsu
senbon rain jutsu

they are jutsu that average ninja are capable of using.



> Oh yah, and I just thought of something. Do Sharingan users need to have another person perform the jutsu in order to use it? Could they use Sharingan to learn a technique from something like, say a video, scroll, or a book? Just out of curiosity that question. I don't remember that ever happening in the manga. I've read it in fanfiction though... that doesn't count at all though lmao X3



they can only learn from video since they need to see the movement, but once completing any jutsu while the sharingan is on it is automatically scanned and copied. so you would only need to get the hang of a jutsu learned with a scroll, do it while the sharingan is on, and now you never forget how to do it.




> And why would pitting an Uchiha who has had the time to learn all C-rank and below jutsus against a Hyuuga who has been only learning jyuuken be fair?


it isn't fair, that is why I took all jutsu away in my scenario. because the growth rate of an uchiha dwarfs that of a hyuuga. only using the most generic examples were fair and even then the hyuuga is blown away.






> I don't know if I'm interpreting correctly, but it seems you're saying that in the time that a Hyuuga can learn only basic jyuuken an Uchiha would have already learned all C-rank and below jutsus.



that is right. jyuuken is a jounin level style. the hyuuga get started early with their training so that it is more time effecient though. even so. one year of constant copying and training would wield results that were FAR higher than with a hyuuga training with the byakugan and jyuuken for one year.

the hyuuga would become decent with jyuuken, but the hyuuga would be full of genjutsu,taijutsu, and ninjutsu.






> So all C-rank and below jutsus besides jyuuken are really really easy to learn, but combined are more affective against a Hyuuga opponent using only what he has practiced of jyuuken.



yes, hyuuga are confined to a certain range with jyuuken only having one ranged attack, and it is a hakke taijutsu, which means it is main branch only.

every uchiha would have the opportunity to horde jutsu like no tommorow. 
with the e-c jutsu shown that would give them a much higher tactical advantage.




> Is jyuuken really that hard to get?


emmiting chakra from the pores in the hands is a jounin level technique. so yeah. it is. also, most weak to intermediate hyuuga would NEVER be able to see tenketsu OR use kaiten. so yeah... you have to be strong and smart to use it.



> Umm, so in your point of view, how many jutsus could an Uchiha genius learn in the time it takes for an equally intelligent and capable Hyuuga to perfect the Jyuuken?



hmm. an uchiha instantly learns a jutsu as soon as they see the handseals and read the chakra flow, so,  they could learn one jutsu per ten seconds.

there are 31,000,000 seconds in one year. roughly cut that in half for rest time and it is 15,000,000. divide it into 2/3 so the uchiha can learn elemental manipulations so it is now 10,000,000. divide that by the number of seconds it takes to learn one jutsu. ten.

1,000,000 an uchiha can theoretically learn one million jutsu in one year.

a hyuuga takes years to master jyuuken. technically the master would be hiashi who is forty one. I will go easy and say neji's thirteen years of training with the branch family should do it. and he is the prodigy of the branch family.

uchiha are nerfed by the plot. they are always couped up somewhere, unable to horde jutsu. in dank hideouts, in ghettoes. anywhere but where the action is.


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## Bart (Jun 19, 2009)

AuxunauxiaNoname said:


> You forgot chakra manipulation for Hyuugas. They have that twirly swirly chakra ultimate defense thing. Maybe it's moot, but add that anyway.
> 
> Don't ignore the coolest jutsu Hyuugas have! That's not fair at all... Hyuugas can spin! See sig ^_^



I presume you're refering to Hakke Kaiten  Here's Hiashi's example of the usage of such a technique:


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## Attor (Jun 19, 2009)

principito said:


> As a clan? yes; here's my line of thinking:
> 
> - A clan's strength is not given by the individual, but as a group
> - Hyuuga's might not have god-like shinobi like Itachi (I prefer to think that it hasn't been shown)
> ...



Alright I appreciate that in a battle situation, with 50 Uchiha vs 50 Hyuuga that only a portion of those Uchiha would have the Sharingan, but you are seriously underestimating Ninjas' like Itachi and Sasuke. 

Don't you remember the scene where Sasuke completely owned countless fodder Nin' effortlessly? Even more so, he made the job more difficult for himself by not aiming for vital organs. So he killed, precisely, with no visible effort, a huge amount of fodder Nin's. Now, I appreciate Hyuuga aren't fodder level by the same token, but Sasuke did this effortlessly, it's hard to believe that now, with his MS, he couldn't do the same to the Hyuuga, without limiting himself to not killing the opponent. And, don't forget, Itachi is even stronger than Sasuke. And your saying it would only take three or so powerful Hyuuga's attention to even things out?  No chance, they would make an incredible difference to the battle and would, without a single doubt, be enough to defeat the Hyuuga with a good portion of 48 other decent Uchiha by their sides, including the likes of Fugaku. Uchiha would take this pretty easily.

EDIT: And if we allow Madara to be in this battle situation, it would be even more of a blood-bath. He can't be defeated with conventional means, in fact, the Kyuubi is needed to defeat him (according to Minato conversation) so he'd actually be un-defeatable.  Thus owning even more.


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## AuxunauxiaNoname (Jun 19, 2009)

In jutsu evaluation, should the time and effort it takes to first activate the Sharingan be considered? From what I understand of the manga, the first activation of Sharingan requires some intense emotional stimulus in the heat of battle. The MS sharingan, which is one of the ultimate techniques requires you to first kill a close friend.

Byakugan doesn't require this stimulus but is just there from birth. So then, by the time an Uchiha has achieved the ability to use Sharingan, wouldn't a Hyuuga have slight advantage over Uchiha?

From what I've read in the manga, it seems that not all Uchiha are even capable of obtaining the Sharingan. If they ever get it and use it to maximum capacity they become pretty much unbeatable by anyone, Hyuuga or any ninja. However in terms of entire clan, there would only be one or two members who've obtained even close to the full use... and those members don't seem to like their clan much


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## Bart (Jun 19, 2009)

AuxunauxiaNoname said:


> In jutsu evaluation, should the time and effort it takes to first activate the Sharingan be considered? From what I understand of the manga, the first activation of Sharingan requires some intense emotional stimulus in the heat of battle. The MS sharingan, which is one of the ultimate techniques requires you to first kill a close friend.



Quite so.



AuxunauxiaNoname said:


> Byakugan doesn't require this stimulus but is just there from birth. So then, by the time an Uchiha has achieved the ability to use Sharingan, wouldn't a Hyuuga have slight advantage over Uchiha?



It's assumed to be quite true. I believe that the vigorous amount of effort and training that a Hyuga puts into the unlocking of the Byakugan's techniques should be duly noted, yes. 

We also know that unlike the Sharingan, not all techniques of the Byakugan are granted to the user, hence why Hiashi was surpised when seing what Neji was able to achieve on he's own and how Sasuke displayed two Mangekyo techniques when shortly acquiring the MS. You must train to unlock the tecniques.

I always state that what Neji achieved with the Byakugan would be similar to a someone without a mathematical background or someone not knowing Alegebra mastering Calculus.



AuxunauxiaNoname said:


> From what I've read in the manga, it seems that not all Uchiha are even capable of obtaining the Sharingan. If they ever get it and use it to maximum capacity they become pretty much unbeatable by anyone, Hyuuga or any ninja. However in terms of entire clan, there would only be one or two members who've obtained even close to the full use... and those members don't seem to like their clan much



Indeed so. This was discussed yesterday, quite vigoriously I might add. True, not all of the Uchiha have the Sharingan. Not that their incapable of acquiring it, but perhaps due to the lack of such an experience as you so eloquently put above.

Don't forget that, even if one has unlocked the Sharingan, they are different stages. I'm preparing to bet that during the Uchiha Massacre, Clan had many who were at different stages of the Sharingan.


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## On and On (Jun 19, 2009)

If the Hyuuga moved beyond JUST taijutsu, they'd still be second best :


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## HyuugaProdigy (Jun 19, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> yes. c-rank jutsu are just when jutsu become REALLY usefull without being signature jutsu that people use. elemental jutsu make their debut in c-rank.
> some other good c-rank jutsu are:
> 
> sen'ei jashu
> ...



i understand what u are saying however a common mistake people make about the hyuuga is that they only have taijutsu, however this is untrue. the hyuuga can also use ninjutsu and they're pretty good at it check out neji and hiashi's stats

*hyuuga neji*
Ninjutsu: 4
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 2
Knowledge: 3
Power: 2.5
Speed: 4.5
Stamina: 3.5
Seal: 3 

*Hyuga Hiashi:* 
Ninjutsu: 3.5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 2
Knowledge: 3
Strength: 3.5
Speed: 4
Stamina: 4
Seal: 5 

u can see that both neji and hiashi have a jonin level of ninutsu, it's not that the hyuuga don't have ninjutsu- 'cause they do- it's not even that the hyuuga can't use ninjutsu- 'cause they can- it's just that kishi has never bothered 2 draw them using ninjutsu but instead chooses 2 focus on them using taijutsu. however we do know that all the hyuuga are considered 2b geniuses and that some1 like neji graduated as the number 1 rookie in the academy- which automatically means that he must have been damn good at basic ninjutsu. i guess we just have 2 wait and see if kishi bothers 2 delve a bit more in2 what the hyuuga are capable of, at the moment the uchiha are getting all the limelight because they have more 2 do with the plot, however kishi makes it clear that th hyuuga are genius clan of equal status 2 the uchiha so they won't b a push over 4 any1.


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## UchihaBlossom (Jun 19, 2009)

i personally  believe that the  Uchihas are  stronger  than the  Hyuugas.


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## Hikui (Jun 19, 2009)

I voted Hyuuga clan, it needed votes and for me the Uchiha clan is a little bit more emo. 
Oh, and I'm biased.


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## olehoncho (Jun 19, 2009)

Hyuuga = Underdogs (In the analysis of Uchiha v Hyuuga)
Naruto = Cliche'd manga.
Cliche'd Manga = Underdogs win

Therefore: Hyuuga = Winners


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## Shadow050 (Jun 19, 2009)

Attor said:


> ^ It's on the second page. You said he wasn't crying tears of blood, and didn't use MS techniques on his clansmen.



second page of what? (this forum or a chapter? because i didn'tsee it on the second page of that chapter)

nevermind.... i found it.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/164/13/

I truly believe he's not talking about using MS techniques and that he's speaking figuratively...
i'll translate again because it DOES NOT say the word "crying" in japanese. starting from the bottom right-side panel... on page 10 of chapter 401

_In japanese Madara says_:
*da ga korosenakatta... ototou dake wa*

*chi no namida wo nagashi-nagara kanjou no issai wo koroshite sato no tami ni douhou wo koroshimakutta otoko ga....*

(page 11)
*doushitemo omae wo korosenakatta*

*sono imi ga omae ni wakararu ka?*

*aitsu ni totte omae no inochi wa*

(page 12)
*sato yorimo omokatta noda*


*which, in English,  "more literally" (not EXACTLY literally because the sentence will be weird as hell.... even though i can give you literal word for word if you want) translates into*:
"*but he was unable to kill... his little brother only.*
(IBE - "the only one he was couldn't kill.... was his little brother")

*sinking into tears of blood as he killed all that was his emotions, for the village the man who killed his brethen with reckless abandon was...*
(notice... nothing said about crying. the word used was nagashi, which is defined like this *"(n) (1) sink; (adj-no) (2) cruising (e.g. taxi)*;")

(page 11)
*for some reason, couldn't kill you*

*that meaning , do you understand?*
(IBE - do you understand/know why?)

*that guy, as far as he was concerned you life was *
(because as far as he was concerned, your life)

(page 12)
*even more heavy than the village.*"
(outweighed the that of village)

please, don't make have to disect each sentence and define each word in order for people to accept this truth. especially if you're gonna just disbelieve anyway. if anyone is seriously disbelieving, please take the words you see above, then go to jim breen's japanese page and use the dictionary there to confirm or disaffirm what i've said. just make sure you chose the "romaji"  "key type" so it translates words to english instead of giving you japanese texts.

anyway... i translated mainly just for that first page. madara never mentioned the word "cry/crying"... the word for that would have "naku/naiteiru" or another word for it liek weeping or something.... not "sink". furthermore, we know we NEVER saw any blood coming from his either of his eyes when the massacre is flashed back to. we also know it makes no sense that he would have been using MS jutsus but still had all of that energy to move around like he did. he used MS jutsu once that night - to show sasuke what he did. if he would have used MS jutsu before that, he would have been ridiculously tired and in bad shape at least after he used it on sasuke. also, as i've pointed out, there was nothing burning so he didn't use amaterasu... and that's the one that we've seen make blood run from his eye. 

we knwo nothing was burning because the clan was wiped out by the time sasuke returns from trainning/school.... and there was no smoke or anything. the thing he noticed was the blood splatters and the signs of battle (shuriken and kunai and things cut up and destroyed).

so again... itachi and madara killed the entire clan in a single night. itachi killed his mother, and his father (who was the head ofthe clan) withoout using MS jutsus (like tsukuyomi and amaterasu).

also, isn't it crazy to assume he used MS jutsu against he reasoning i just laid out... but at the same time act like there's no way other person in the village could have gained the MS?

what i'm saying is that these two claims are equally crazy.

lastly, for this post...
this is why the uchiha clan is so "feared" and well known.... 
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/164/13/
because they fluantedtheir power everywhere.

and oh yeah... the other reason we can't take the entirty of madara's story as true is because it's already been proven that he's lied about at least one thing... he was behind the kyuubi attack - confirmed by the 4th hokage.


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## principito (Jun 19, 2009)

Attor said:


> Don't you remember the scene where Sasuke completely owned countless fodder Nin' effortlessly? Even more so, he made the job more difficult for himself by not aiming for vital organs. So he killed, precisely, with no visible effort, a huge amount of fodder Nin's.* Now, I appreciate Hyuuga aren't fodder level by the same token, but Sasuke did this effortlessly, it's hard to believe that now, with his MS, he couldn't do the same to the Hyuuga, without limiting himself to not killing the opponent. And, don't forget, Itachi is even stronger than Sasuke.* And your saying it would only take three or so powerful Hyuuga's attention to even things out?  No chance, they would make an incredible difference to the battle and would, without a single doubt, be enough to defeat the Hyuuga with a good portion of 48 other decent Uchiha by their sides, including the likes of Fugaku. Uchiha would take this pretty easily.



Being fair:

By the time when Neji actually was part of the Series along with Sasuke in part 1, their power levels where about the same. Its unfair/ridiculous/dumb to think that the gap between their powers right now is big. They both have powerful bloodlines. Neji has gotten no attention in part two, but to assume that is power is far behind Sasuke's its nonsense. He was the first jounin of their generation, etc... so there are many arguments that contradict this.

All this being said, I stand by my point. 3 powerful hyuugas can stand their ground agains a single Uchiha monster. 

Remember there's a scene during Orochimaru's invasion where Hiashi kills a lot of fodder with ease too in no time.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 19, 2009)

Attor said:


> Lol what? The only reason it wouldn't happen to the Hyuuga is because of their position in the village (Uchihas were in the corner so would be easier to be more stealthy, with no interference.)
> 
> And why are you glorifying Hyuuga individuals, but not taking into account the great Uchiha that had to be defeated like Uchiha Fugaku? Seems like you're not taking enough into account here. Both Hyuuga are Uchiha had great Ninja, and Uchiha were the damn police you know.
> 
> And it wasn't just '13 year old Itachi' it was 'eighty year old Madara' as well.



it wouldn't have happened tot he hyuuga because, like was said... if one fought the others would have been alerted and turned on their byakugans, aand no way in hell is even itachi (esp at 13 years old) defeating a whole clan.... _even with madara's help_... without anyone knowing (besides the higher ups).

fugaku was the head... i assume he had to be strong... but itachi kileld both him and his wife without much of a problem it seems. (maybe they let it happened, but i doubt it).

and the uchiha were made the police because nidaime wanted to keep tabs on them, according to madara.... and that actually something i believe might be true.

especially considering that EVERYONE with even half a mind knows the hyuuga would make better police of the village since they can be all up in everyone's private business via the byakugan's ability to see through walls and read people so well lol. i always identified that as "funny" lol. when madara mentioned that i was like " it all makes sense now" lol.

aside for that... i know both are great ninja. i just think the hyuuga abilities are better than the uchihas, as more hyuugas would end up strong by default than uchihas since the hyuugas get the byakugan by default, and ALL learn gentle fist - and tus all have great chakra control even from their youth, as gentle fist uses +(at least average)jounin level chakra control (yes... that _is_ a fact lol)... which would _logically_ make them good against genjutsu... and the byakugan can apparently see through that as well. 

the main abilties the sharingan has over the byakugan is the ability to copy, and ability to "predict"... even though the byakugan doesn't reqire copying and is better at analyzing from the beginning, and can also read movement VERY well.

the databook also bluntly and blatantly says that the hyuuga, thanks to the byakugan, are "praised as the clan with the most outstanding ability". the manga also confirmed that the insight was beyond the sharingan's.... and insight is the main strength of a doujutsu.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 19, 2009)

principito said:


> Being fair:
> 
> By the time when Neji actually was part of the Series along with Sasuke in part 1, their power levels where about the same. Its unfair/ridiculous/dumb to think that the gap between their powers right now is big.



actually... neji's strength was far beyond sasuke's when he was first introduced. kakashi knew this too.

it was still far beyond sasuke's strength at the end of part two, despite a loss to naruto (and i think most people know what _that_ was ).

sasuke had to "catch up" to neji from the start.... so in part two, it's ridiculous/etc, as you said, to act like there would be this big gap in skill or strength in part two - especially when _we've just happened to not see neji or even lee in action_.... even more so when people notice that the series has been focusing on naruto and sasuke and showing them in a light were most people will think they're "ZOMG POWERFUL!!" lol... so of course they're not going to be all quick to show people that rival them. has other people questioned how or why _team gai just happened to be away from the village when pein attacked?_


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## Hamaru (Jun 19, 2009)

Wow, This is still going on? Let me break it down like this. The Uchiha clan says that the Uchiha clan is the strongest clan in the village. A Uchiha (Madara) said that his clan was the oldest and strongest. That is nothing more than pride for the clan. The Hyuga clan does not even need to talk about themselvs. Why? because other people who are not bias or part of their clan speak for them.

Kakashi says that the Hyuga is Konoha's oldest and greatest clan
Link removed

Sarutobi says that Neji is a genius _*even*_ among the Hyuga clan, hinting that they are a clan full of very smart people.
Link removed

Neji then tells us that there are many people after the Byakugan.
Link removed

As for being the police, the Hyuga clan can do the same job. If you are looking for claims made about a clan from its own clan members.
Link removed


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## olehoncho (Jun 19, 2009)

When it boils down to a Sasuke vs Neji fight, the cliches can go in either of two directions.

1. Sasuke is at heart still a good guy.
Therefore all of the techniques we have seen him use will be used at the start of his fight vs Neji.
Cliches dictate that strong attacks used at the start of a fight are useless.
Neji, not having had as much time in the manga will then show the powerful technique(s) he has developed in secret and mangle Sasuke with them.

Winner = Neji and the Hyuuga.

2. Sasuke is a villain by nature.
Neji will reveal his hand first, his attacks will be useless before the eyes of Sharingan (blah blah blah).
Sasuke will then use his mega attack, that we haven't seen before (or an attack he got from Itachi).
Neji will lose.
Anime cliche laws say then that either:
a. Neji survives to tell Naruto the secret to defeat Sasuke (giving naruto two aces in the hole against Sasuke).
b. Neji dies (so sad) and Naruto avenges him.

Winner = Uchiha... but they lose in the end anyways.
So... real Winner = Uzumaki


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 19, 2009)

Attor said:


> Alright I appreciate that in a battle situation, with 50 Uchiha vs 50 Hyuuga that only a portion of those Uchiha would have the Sharingan, but you are seriously underestimating Ninjas' like Itachi and Sasuke.
> 
> Don't you remember the scene where Sasuke completely owned countless fodder Nin' effortlessly? Even more so, he made the job more difficult for himself by not aiming for vital organs. So he killed, precisely, with no visible effort, a huge amount of fodder Nin's. Now, I appreciate Hyuuga aren't fodder level by the same token, but Sasuke did this effortlessly, it's hard to believe that now, with his MS, he couldn't do the same to the Hyuuga, without limiting himself to not killing the opponent. And, don't forget, Itachi is even stronger than Sasuke. And your saying it would only take three or so powerful Hyuuga's attention to even things out?  No chance, they would make an incredible difference to the battle and would, without a single doubt, be enough to defeat the Hyuuga with a good portion of 48 other decent Uchiha by their sides, including the likes of Fugaku. Uchiha would take this pretty easily.
> 
> EDIT: And if we allow Madara to be in this battle situation, it would be even more of a blood-bath. He can't be defeated with conventional means, in fact, the Kyuubi is needed to defeat him (according to Minato conversation) so he'd actually be un-defeatable.  Thus owning even more.



gaining the sharingan

*Spoiler*: __ 



firstly, it is very inacurate to use non-shinobi uchiha in a fight against fully trained hyuuga. you seem to be in the group that misunderstood the statement about uchiha not having the sharingan. the fact is as long as you have kekkei genkai blood, you can use the kekkei genkai.

 ALL uchiha had the potential to use sharingan. the problem was this. they were confined to a peacefull ghetto in konoha. they had an option to stay in the village and becom civilians or become konoha military police. you see uchiha like auntie who lived by selling pastries. of course she wouldn't have the sharingan... she would have never had to fight for her life protected by all the shinobi in konoha and the uchiha MP. not to mention in itachi's memories uncle had the sharingan as well, showing that he may have been in a good fight during his life.


 EVERYONE in the military police had the sharingan. having it was proof of adulthood and strength. you can see groupshots with all of the uchiha having their sharingan activated. those were the uchiha that fought. the shinobi.

also, there is a very quick way to activate the sharingan. being jumped in. that is a common practice in gangs, militaries, and even some police forces.
it would be nothing to tie an uchiha to a chair and whip him until the sharingan manefested. tell him that he will die unless he manefests the sharingan. 

it manefests during emotional stress, anger, or need. if you really force it open it will open. the sharingan is often described as when uchiha blood boils to the surface the sharingan manefests in their time of need.

also keep 


this however is why using established characters to fight in a clan war is stupid. because we do not know the true capabilities of those clans. we have seen eight characters each from both, out of hundreds. 
that is why it is better to just take the powers of the kekkei genkai and compare using two soldiers of equal strength to see who is the strongest.

sharigan fighter vs byakugan fighter. the sharingan always wins.








*what everyone "forgot" about the byakugan*.

*Spoiler*: __ 



you all love to somehow use uchiha who haven't been trained to kill and survive, or who have never been in a risky fight and become bloodlusted.
(thus unable to use even the basic sharingan and unable to train)

however you never truely say the facts about the byakugan. the fact most often omited is that the byakugan is constantly fed chakra while on, it takes concentration to keep it on, and it takes training to use it without... HANDSEALS!   hinata during the chuunin exams had poor chakra so she had to weave hand seals to turn it on. neji who is on par with an experienced main branch hyuuga shinobi had enough to simply force it open.

 so this arguement that all hyuuga are born with the byakugan is moot. they still need lots of training to use it well. the chakra amount is directly related to the skill of the hyuuga using the byakugan.

 the more chakra the user has to invest, the longer it stays on, the more it sees, and the farther it sees.






AuxunauxiaNoname said:


> In jutsu evaluation, should the time and effort it takes to first activate the Sharingan be considered? From what I understand of the manga, the first activation of Sharingan requires some intense emotional stimulus in the heat of battle. The MS sharingan, which is one of the ultimate techniques requires you to first kill a close friend.
> 
> Byakugan doesn't require this stimulus but is just there from birth. So then, by the time an Uchiha has achieved the ability to use Sharingan, wouldn't a Hyuuga have slight advantage over Uchiha?
> 
> From what I've read in the manga, it seems that not all Uchiha are even capable of obtaining the Sharingan. If they ever get it and use it to maximum capacity they become pretty much unbeatable by anyone, Hyuuga or any ninja. However in terms of entire clan, there would only be one or two members who've obtained even close to the full use... and those members don't seem to like their clan much



the thing is the sharingan awakens as soon as 
A. the uchiha has enough chakra.
B. they understand the mechanics of the sharingan
C. they are in need of the sharingan OR they experience enough trauma that they become "bloodlusted".

the sharingan only needs these three things to manefest. B isn't even really needed since the sharingan CAN manifest through sheer fighting instinct alone. however one can train themselves to use the sharingan without them having to go totally crazy. sometimes it manefests when you need to see something but can't. 

it is like if you had four eyes, but only used the second set after the first didn't work. the sharingan awakens when the agressive instincts of an uchiha peak. it's like the super saiyan, but far easier to achieve. to awaken a sharingan an uchiha needs to fight and loose because the fustration and battle-lust they need cannot be met in a school for ninja or playing . unless you have an extremely cruel sibling.







HyuugaProdigy said:


> i understand what u are saying however a common mistake people make about the hyuuga is that they only have taijutsu, however this is untrue. the hyuuga can also use ninjutsu and they're pretty good at it check out neji and hiashi's stats
> 
> *hyuuga neji*
> Ninjutsu: 4
> ...



I am not saying they don't have ninjutsu nor they don't have a special insight into their mechanics. I am saying that jyuuken takes a LONG time to get to neji's level for a branch hyuuga. neji was a genius among hyuuga. this was shown when hinata who had trained extremely hard was using kindergardener level jyuuken compared to neji. she couldn't even see the tenketsu. he could see them while the enemy was moving at high speeds.

also keep in mind, neji, hanabi, and hiashi have the strongest concentration of hyuuga blood in the whole clan. so using high stats from the best of the best does not reflect the rest who may only have hinata's skill level in jyuuken and byakugan, AND the rest of the skills.


also, I would like to say I think all kekkei genkai heirs have higher stats in all fields naturally since thier bodies are evolved into the specific trait to excel at the use of chakra, jutsu, and fighting . it is just some have the option to take advantage of their naturally evolved genetics, and some gain personalities that counteract their blood.

 for example, hyuuga hinata developed an inferiority complex and meekness. that made her less inclined to fight and train to do so.

uchiha obito was a coward. he was always afraid to fight and had problems shedding his weakness and fear, and resolving himself to fight. because of this his uchiha blood was never agitated since he didn't act on his agressive instincts.

being scared does not manefest the sharingan. having the intent to kill, fight, survive, and win boils their blood and awakens the sharingan.




to anyone who thinks otherwise, I am not a tard. I like all doujutsu and kekkei genkai, and bijuu. ALL OF THEM.

it's just some are naturally better than others. to deny that is... denial.


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## Wade (Jun 19, 2009)

EMS Uchiha said:


> The Uchiha clan was already confirmed to be the strongest Clan along with Senju.



This should close that pointless thread.


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## biar (Jun 19, 2009)

If Uchiha Clan is so great how come Itachi slaughtered the entire clan unscathed? If the Uchiha clan is so great how come they produced some crybaby / non-genius like Obito? Sasuke's family is just superior, but Uchiha and Hyuga Clan in general are equal.


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## omgbbq (Jun 19, 2009)

the uchiha are MUCH more powerful


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 19, 2009)

biar said:


> If Uchiha Clan is so great how come Itachi slaughtered the entire clan unscathed? If the Uchiha clan is so great how come they produced some crybaby / non-genius like Obito? Sasuke's family is just superior, but Uchiha and Hyuga Clan in general are equal.



1. itachi did not slaughter the whole clan. itachi slaughtered his share. he knew that even though he was the prodigy of the uchiha clan at that moment he could not do it alone. he was human after all and subject to fatigue and chakra loss. so he asked THE penultimate uchiha, Uchiha Madara to help. help he did. we do know he killed at least... 20 at once and killed his parents. I'd say he probably killed... 60- 100. that is about twenty immediate families.

also, remember, madara and itachi had preptime and mangekyou sharingan, which had been outlawed and nearly forgoten because its requirements were not told to all but the highest ranking uchiha.

and they attacked during the night time. people were not expecting it, and probably watching tv or playing monopoly or sumthin, and then the two strongest uchiha started going door to door and spree killing people.

2. because he is his own man. obito was still thirteen regardless, so it isn't hard to see that he was immature. also, fourth generation uchiha (after the forth war) did not have as many responsibilities. they had wellfare from the city and the ability to trade and to become military police and shinobi. 

they were not all strict as the hyuuga clan with their self-imposed slavery. uchiha were basicly free, and were only really enslaved by their restrictions.
they all had to live in the uchiha ghetto and they could not take positions of power and office. 

the citizenship clause of puerto rico comes to mind. anyhow, Obito wasn't really pushed to become a great ninja at all. so he had no motivation.

also, with hinata, isn't it really unfair to call out crybabies? obito got REAL badass after that uchiha blood got hot.


3. of course sasuke's family is superior. he is basicaly the prince of the uchiha. his father was the chief. he probably had the highest concentration of uchiha blood, so his chakra is stronger than most of his clansmen. the sharingan doesn't really get any better or worse, but the chakra... that varies between uchiha greatly.

(chakra is required to power and enhance the sharingan, just like the byakugan, so the quality of ones chakra directly effects how strong their sharingan is. the sharingan itself does not lessen in quality because it is a medium.)


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## olehoncho (Jun 19, 2009)

Makes me wonder if there is anything else to the Byakugan though, what with all the goodies the Sharingan and Rinnegan get at their highest levels.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 19, 2009)

olehoncho said:


> Makes me wonder if there is anything else to the Byakugan though, what with all the goodies the Sharingan and Rinnegan get at their highest levels.



do you voluteer hinata to kill her whole family and eat their eyes to find out?
the byakugan's thing is that it is basicaly limitless as long as you have the chakra to use it.

with a bijuu, it wouldn't be a stretch to see them using byakugan to scry the whole world and be able to read minds by translating the electron signals to the brain into thought.


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## αce (Jun 19, 2009)

Lol, Hyuuga clan.

If Hyuuga is so great, why is Neji their best shinobi?


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 19, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Lol, Hyuuga clan.
> 
> If Hyuuga is so great, why is Neji their best shinobi?



he isn't... he is the best branch hyuuga. the best hyuuga is hiashi. who regularly pwns neji without breaking a sweat... cause he is his jyuuken sensei.

also, neji is seen as strong because he has the tallents of a main branch member... which he technically is. there are just some legality issues within the hyuuga clan... 

inslaving their brethren is nothing to lol about... they should all have curse seals if keeping the bloodline safe is that important. dummies.


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## Attor (Jun 19, 2009)

Madara could actually solo the Hyuuga. A special technique, involving the Kyuubi is needed to beat him. Hyuuga's don't have this so it would be impossible for them to beat him.


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## Milkshake (Jun 19, 2009)

I heard in some way, the Hyuuga & the Uchiha are somewhat related ; the only clan with eye techniques and all but in terms of strength, I believe it goes to the Uchihas. 

The Sharingan has upgrades to it that enable tons of power, while it seems like the Byakugan can't evolve into another state. Neji was the protegee' of the entire clan, with Hiashi at possible higher stats while Itachi, Sasuke, Madara all have high tires that orginate from this clan, who knows if any of the other members were as powerful in past? However, the fact that they all were massacred by Itachi in only one night makes things a bit fuzzy - however I still think this may go to the Uchiha clan.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 19, 2009)

Attor said:


> Madara could actually solo the Hyuuga. A special technique, involving the Kyuubi is needed to beat him. Hyuuga's don't have this so it would be impossible for them to beat him.



Im sure madara is actually harder to beat than just having kyuubi with you. I am thinking he and hashirama's battle was alot longer than what people think. DAYS. I think madara was only defeatable after he ran out of chakra.

this would make since because only hashirama had what it took to really push madara to the brink. THEN when hashirama decended apon madara who was exhausted to nearly nothing he preformed the coup-de-gras, which he thought killed madara. but didn't.

oh, and yes. madara could solo every hyuuga. with his density jutsu alone. the hyuuga don't hit anything but air, but madara could pull a shadowcat and directly crush organs from the inside. all he really has to do is harden only his hand while in their brains. insta kill.

and if he can phase other things at will (since his clothes stay on I say yes), there is nothing stopping him from removing whole organs without effort.


and that is why I only use generic uchiha and hyuuga in a battledome type setting. because once you start using established characters and jutsu rather than just kekkei genkai, rapes start.

 and that makes everyone mad. well just the loser, but the bitching makes the winners mad so they are even.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 19, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> so yeah... UCHIHA WIN.



(i chose not to show the entire post, but my comment applies to the entire post that quote is from)

you set it up very interestingly, but you also "ganked", i think is the proper word, the hell out of the hyuugas by taking away juuken. THAT is completely unfair, especially considering the uchiha still had genjutsu in that fight.

not that it REALLY matters, because you forget that for ANY ninjutsu, there MUST be a chakra molding and such... so even if they fall into a genjutsu from the gaze of an uchiha they can _logically_ know that "something" has occured... and then _easily_ break out of the genjutsu with their far superior chakra control. 

you also forget that a highly skilled hyuuga will probably not be able to hit as long as you're attacking within the range covered by his/her byakugan. maybe it's sort of unfair, but we've never seen neji actualy get hit by any offensive attack while his byakugan has been on.... while the predictive ability of the sharingan has been shown to _not_ be quite as reliable. the byakugan _does_ exceed the sharingan in terms of insight after all... remember?

you're also wrong about potential. the hyuuga have a very deep potential. do they get quick rewards as fast as the uchiha? not at all... but as with anything that you actually work for - it's better than something that just lands in you lap. the person who works to reach a leve ALWAYS is better at it than the copycat. case in point - sasuke copied lee's taijutsu, but his skill with it and in taijutsu was still very much inferior to rock lee's. there are also limits to this copying ability.

you said that hyuugas don't understand how things work the way that uchihas do... and to a degree you're right... but there are also things the uchiha can  NEVER understand like the hyuuga does about chakra... and that's supported by the databook as well. the hyuuga hav the capacity to jhave the GREATEST understanding of chakra and all it's works since they can see the chakra network.

also, when we consider abilities... the ones we know of the hyuuga trump the ones we know of the uchiha. if you bring knowledge into the scenerio - something the hyuuga would EASILY have on the uhciha because they were prideful fools who brandished their power all the time - the hyuuga can't be easily beaten by a uchiha. they'd simply turn on the byakugan, close their eyes (ruining ALL genjutsu attempts), they'd keep an eye on the users chakra flow, and they'd fight the uchiha using kaiten only when needed and avoiding all other attacks as they move to finish the uchiha - who would quickly deplete their chakra in failed attempts at ninjutsu because they'd know taijutsu would be a really bad decision.

you were also wrong about the tenketsu thing. logically there are quite a few branch members who can see tenketsu... they just still can't do things like 64 points, which is a special attack. byakugans naturally will mature and increase in strength. and the ability to see tenketsu is based on the strength of the users byakugan.

in any case... the sharingan DOES have more "powers it simply grants, without effort"... but the hyuuga's potential is virtually limitless so long as they are driven to work hard.

in the end.... HYUUGA ClAN WINS


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## Attor (Jun 19, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Im sure madara is actually harder to beat than just having kyuubi with you. I am thinking he and hashirama's battle was alot longer than what people think. DAYS. I think madara was only defeatable after he ran out of chakra.



Yeah it probably isn't just a case of 'I have Kyuubi, I win.' But the Kyuubi is deff needed.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 19, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Im sure madara is actually harder to beat than just having kyuubi with you. I am thinking he and hashirama's battle was alot longer than what people think. DAYS. I think madara was only defeatable after he ran out of chakra.
> 
> this would make since because only hashirama had what it took to really push madara to the brink. THEN when hashirama decended apon madara who was exhausted to nearly nothing he preformed the coup-de-gras, which he thought killed madara. but didn't.
> 
> ...



you're entire post here is based off highly unlikely assumptions. their battle was never implied to be days or anything, and you're assuming madara had the ability to teleport the way he does now, back then in that fight, and doubt that. IF he did, then it just means that shodai figured his trick out... which is only waiting to happen in the series.

when you bring imagination into the mix, that's when things get out of control... the thing about madara insta-killing people is beyond farfetched. you nor i know that much about his jutsus and how they work exactly because they haven't been revealed yet.

madara wouldn't have so easy a time with hyuuga memebers as you think. their vision can reveal things that other people's can't. and hinata isn't exactly the holy grial in terms of proving what the hyuuga are capable of so don't even think about it. i'm not saying people are all correct, but many feel like she's a benchmark to a degree to say "_if even hinata can do it then you know the other members can_" and they use her as a starting point lol. i'm not gonna lie, i have said things similar, but ONLY regarding neji (and that was only in regards to her seeing over 10 KILOMETERS with _her byakugan_... which made me say... she can see 10... logically, neji can see that much if not more... then i go on to say that the manga has confirm him being able to see over at least 1 kilometer though...)

anyway, the byakugan, at least a strong could possibly reveal things about madara that make him able to be dealt with more than you can imgine.

in any case... we shouldn't be basing much on him atm, since we know SOOO little, and he's wrapped in mystery


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## Griever (Jun 19, 2009)

Hyuuga's are a let down the only one to impress was Neji, as much as i fucking hate the Uchiha and there cheap little blood line i will have to say Uchiha are the stronger.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 19, 2009)

olehoncho said:


> Makes me wonder if there is anything else to the Byakugan though, what with all the goodies the Sharingan and Rinnegan get at their highest levels.



well... we do know that the cloud country sought the byakugan so badly they tried to use trickery to kidnap a 3 year old!
then, once that failed, they were ready to basically go to war to try to get their hands on it.

idk if they have over the top upgrades and that like... but they honestly don't even need it. they have perfect vision for the most part, a highly deadly fighting style, and defenses that can force you to fight their kind of fight. the reason they don't keep adding on to the byakugan, but keep adding on to the sharingan might be so that they more on the same level lol.

side note - i thought of something funny.... remember the anime? the scene that flashes back to when the guy from the cloud tried to kidnap hinata? remember how he thought he was sneaking away and hiashi casually walks outside right in front of him.... i just imagined itachi sneaking around the hyuuga premises and hiashi walking out and being like "itachi wtf do you think you're doing?" lol


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## Attor (Jun 19, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> when you bring imagination into the mix, that's when things get out of control... the thing about madara insta-killing people is beyond farfetched. you nor i know that much about his jutsus and how they work exactly because they haven't been revealed yet.
> 
> madara wouldn't have so easy a time with hyuuga memebers as you think.
> 
> in any case... we shouldn't be basing much on him atm, since we know SOOO little, and he's wrapped in mystery



Madara would slaughter them... He can't be beaten by a Hyuuga. This is a canon fact. A special technique is needed to beat Madara involving the Kyuubi which the Hyuuga don't possess. So, as he would be _unbeatable_, he'd have a very easy time indeed. 

And as DMV pointed out, Madara has already shown in the Manga a formidable Jutsu that pretty much grants him immunity from attacks, and allows him to travel at speeds comparable to the speed of light. I agree with DMV that this alone could beat the Hyuuga, _humiliate_ them, in fact. And even with that in mind, we don't yet know what other techniques Madara has (he's bound to have more than one!) We could just be scraping the surface of Madara's ocean of power .


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## Shadow050 (Jun 19, 2009)

Attor said:


> EDIT: And if we allow Madara to be in this battle situation, it would be even more of a blood-bath. He can't be defeated with conventional means, in fact, the Kyuubi is needed to defeat him (according to Minato conversation) so he'd actually be un-defeatable.  Thus owning even more.



y'know... i actually have  theory on madara's powers being connected with the kyuubi and that's why he's even still alive and kicking lol. 

but i really don' think this version of madara even counts. i doubt he's really powerful right now... especially considering itachi words on him. it's just that he's beyond difficult to kill for some reason. i think the sealing has something to do with it.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 19, 2009)

Attor said:


> Madara would slaughter them... He can't be beaten by a Hyuuga. This is a canon fact. A special technique is needed to beat Madara involving the Kyuubi which the Hyuuga don't possess. So, as he would be _unbeatable_, he'd have a very easy time indeed.
> 
> And as DMV pointed out, Madara has already shown in the Manga a formidable Jutsu that pretty much grants him immunity from attacks, and allows him to travel at speeds comparable to the speed of light. I agree with DMV that this alone could beat the Hyuuga, _humiliate_ them, in fact. And even with that in mind, we don't yet know what other techniques Madara has (he's bound to have more than one!) We could just be scraping the surface of Madara's ocean of power .



you do realize that if that were the case madara could single handedly walk to konoha right now and kill the entire village right? but he's not. because he's not what ya'll think he is.

the part about speed of light was a hyperbole... it was even written as translators note before.


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## PushMeAway (Jun 19, 2009)

Sharingan is beyond compare. COmparing Uchiha and Hyuuga is like comparing a Volkswagen Beetle and an F1 Ferrari. Its pretty obvious that Uchiha is far superior clan. Even Kishi pointed it out. I have no doubt that Sasuke can even wipe-out all the Hyuugas now. Or even the revered Itachi can do that.

Dont despair my friend. An inferior and underdog Uzamaki will dispose all that Uchiha one by one for you...


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## Shadow050 (Jun 19, 2009)

PushMeAway said:


> Sharingan is beyond compare. COmparing Uchiha and Hyuuga is like comparing a Volkswagen Beetle and an F1 Ferrari. Its pretty obvious that Uchiha is far superior clan. Even Kishi pointed it out. I have no doubt that Sasuke can even wipe-out all the Hyuugas now. Or even the revered Itachi can do that.
> 
> Dont despair my friend. An inferior and underdog Uzamaki will dispose all that Uchiha one by one for you...



lol what?
kishi pointed that out how and when?

sasuke isn't THAT strong my friend... look up the terms Plot-no-jutsu and "character preservation" and you'll see him lol.

anyway... i really would like to see when and where kishi did those things you state. the simple fact that we've gone so far comparing something considered "side" and something considered "main" shows you who's really the strongest...  because the "side" has barely been shown and focused on like that, yet all this support exists. and the uchiha have had numerous chapters dedicated to them because they are a part of the "main" considering that the one of the last of them is so closely connected with THE main character.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 19, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> (i chose not to show the entire post, but my comment applies to the entire post that quote is from)



I shall break yours up into spoilers to adress each point without taking up too much space.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> you set it up very interestingly, but you also "ganked", i think is the proper word, the hell out of the hyuugas by taking away juuken. THAT is completely unfair, especially considering the uchiha still had genjutsu in that fight.
> 
> not that it REALLY matters, because you forget that for ANY ninjutsu, there MUST be a chakra molding and such... so even if they fall into a genjutsu from the gaze of an uchiha they can _logically_ know that "something" has occured... and then _easily_ break out of the genjutsu with their far superior chakra control.



well, since hyuuga are not naturally capable of jyuuken nor that level of chakra manipulation, then when comparing kekkei genkai in a combat scenario they are invalid. it is absolutely fair since the uchiha is not capable of using that one million jutsu. 

also, without knowledge of the sharingan they would have no idea what was coming since genjutsu usually take seals to use, and would simply know something was coming. also without knowledge of the jyuuken the hyuuga is just as succeptable to the sharingan as anyone else... if jyuuken helps at all.

also one can break out of sharingan genjutsu, but only if they use kai, or naruto's genjutsu dispel method (which is most likely the standard one)

we have seen why both usually fail with uchiha genjutsu. (see naruto and orochimaru )
 the more chakra invested the higher the effects. and they can get HIGH.





*Spoiler*: __ 






> you also forget that a highly skilled hyuuga will probably not be able to hit as long as you're attacking within the range covered by his/her byakugan. maybe it's sort of unfair, but we've never seen neji actualy get hit by any offensive attack while his byakugan has been on.... while the predictive ability of the sharingan has been shown to _not_ be quite as reliable. the byakugan _does_ exceed the sharingan in terms of insight after all... remember?



the byakugan helps because it has a spacial awareness of sorts. it kind of "feels" more than sees, it just feels everything. so there would be no suprise attacks coming, but remember, the uchiha can predict how the hyuuga is going to defend and get under the defence.

also the only time the the uchiha is beat, is when the enemy has a SUBSTANTIAL advantage over the uchiha. also, killa bee was using swords with sasuke which do not have chakra, so prediction is less acurate. the movement tracking is the only defence against inanimate objects, and obviously eight simultanious attacks was just to much to evade. he didn't make it. happened with rock lee, happened with killa bee (rhyme).

the eyes are faster than the user. 





*Spoiler*: __ 






> you're also wrong about potential. the hyuuga have a very deep potential. do they get quick rewards as fast as the uchiha? not at all... but as with anything that you actually work for - it's better than something that just lands in you lap. the person who works to reach a leve ALWAYS is better at it than the copycat. case in point - sasuke copied lee's taijutsu, but his skill with it and in taijutsu was still very much inferior to rock lee's. there are also limits to this copying ability.



not one of these... only idiots and envious people make statements like this.
there is NO downside to being able to completely learn something quickly. there are piano protegies that will ALLWAYS be better than those who train for decades. that hard work philosophy is to pacify tallentless people.
general jutsu need three things. chakra, seals, and fitness.

uchiha have trancendant chakra, can memorize seals and chakra movement perfectly, and have some of the strongest bodies. they meet all of the requirements.

secondly, sasuke's taijutsu was not as good as lee's because he copied three minutes of it while getting his ass beat. he has not seen the entirety of the jutsu, just the very basics. if he spent time with lee and was shown his WHOLE style, sasuke would have copied it perfectly.






*Spoiler*: __ 






> you said that hyuugas don't understand how things work the way that uchihas do... and to a degree you're right... but there are also things the uchiha can  NEVER understand like the hyuuga does about chakra... and that's supported by the databook as well. the hyuuga hav the capacity to jhave the GREATEST understanding of chakra and all it's works since they can see the chakra network.



wrong. uchiha's have perfect insight into the movement of chakra. after all it is half of the copying method. they are only incapable of seeing tenketsu. the byakugan wins with reading emotion, seeing tenketsu, seeing 359 degrees, and piercing telescopic sight. that is all.







*Spoiler*: __ 






> also, when we consider abilities... the ones we know of the hyuuga trump the ones we know of the uchiha. if you bring knowledge into the scenerio - something the hyuuga would EASILY have on the uhciha because they were prideful fools who brandished their power all the time - the hyuuga can't be easily beaten by a uchiha. they'd simply turn on the byakugan, close their eyes (ruining ALL genjutsu attempts), they'd keep an eye on the users chakra flow, and they'd fight the uchiha using kaiten only when needed and avoiding all other attacks as they move to finish the uchiha - who would quickly deplete their chakra in failed attempts at ninjutsu because they'd know taijutsu would be a really bad decision.



1. the hyuuga wer equally prideful and I should say are. they obsessed so much over maintaining the purity of the bloodline that they enslaved their weaker kindred. this still goes on. the uchiha grew out of fratricide. hyuuga still inforce it to keep order. also, yes the sharingan is more famously known.

but that is because it is more famous. 

2. if you want to introduce knowledge the uchiha knows all about hyuuga as well. and their synergistic taijutsu _hyuuga ryu-jyuuken_. now he can make sure those hands don't touch. also, while he copies jyuuken effortlessly and dodges, he makes a mockery of it activating chakra scalpels and cutting the tendons of the hyuuga. can't shake that off.






*Spoiler*: __ 






> you were also wrong about the tenketsu thing. logically there are quite a few branch members who can see tenketsu... they just still can't do things like 64 points, which is a special attack. byakugans naturally will mature and increase in strength. and the ability to see tenketsu is based on the strength of the users byakugan.



wrong again. the reason that branch members cannot use hakke jyuuken is because they are not taught because they are hijutsu. they cannot use 64 palms because they usually lack the strength in blood to do so. this CAN be increased by training only, but the amount would be immence.






> [
> in any case... the sharingan DOES have more "powers it simply grants, without effort"... but the hyuuga's potential is virtually limitless so long as they are driven to work hard.
> 
> in the end.... HYUUGA ClAN WINS



wrong for the last time. the sharingan does have more powers it grants without effort, and they are of better quality. the byakugan sees things that can't be seen and can progress that skill to their personal limits. 

the sharingan sees things that can't be seen, can instantly understand and permanently copy things seen, can make other people see things that shouldn't be seen, and can make people do things that shouldn't be done.

the byakugan undisputedly does one thing better than sharingan, but cannot even begin to do three things that the sharingan can... INSTANTLY.

I will not delve into its higher realms because that would be mean... although totally fair. 


finally a hard working uchiha is something scary. sasuke worked hard... later. itachi worked hard. madara worked as a shinobi 24/7 until people thought he got killed. then he rezzed himself and started working sum more.



Attor said:


> Yeah it probably isn't just a case of 'I have Kyuubi, I win.' But the Kyuubi is deff needed.



I think its because the sheer war of attrition needed is so high, you need bijuu chakra just to win. you need inhuman stamina, chakra, and strength to even get to the point when he is tired.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 19, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> you're entire post here is based off highly unlikely assumptions. their battle was never implied to be days or anything, and you're assuming madara had the ability to teleport the way he does now, back then in that fight, and doubt that. IF he did, then it just means that shodai figured his trick out... which is only waiting to happen in the series.



the battle never had a time implyied but it was not a rape-stomp. madara DID imply that both were taken to the brink. also it is quite fair to assume that the battle lasted days. the two were the sole possessors of bijuu in the world.

and to clear things up, I didn't say he had the teleportation OR the density jutsu. just hashirama thought he killed him, but he didn't. a suspended animation jutsu would work perfectly. there is a body that shows all the signs of being dead, and even is burried... but it isn't. just waiting till everyone is gone to breathe again...







> when you bring imagination into the mix, that's when things get out of control... the thing about madara insta-killing people is beyond farfetched. you nor i know that much about his jutsus and how they work exactly because they haven't been revealed yet.



firstly this whole exersise is based on imagination. especially for the hyuuga. you act if they can spam kaiten all day. an uchiha can spam plenty jutsu all day however. they will not be stronger than... c-rank though. but c-rank is enough to kill. and its also imaginative that the hyuuga closes his eyelids and can still see. until that is shown it doesn't work.

finally, madara can become intangible, and become extremely hard. therefore becoming hard while touching an organ that would fail instantly if touched (heart, brain) would kill the person. this is common sense. we have seen those mechanics in TONS of media. not only that but it is the scientifically logical. touching the brain with anything hard causes concussions and penetrating it causes death or irreversable brain damage





> madara wouldn't have so easy a time with hyuuga memebers as you think. their vision can reveal things that other people's can't. and hinata isn't exactly the holy grial in terms of proving what the hyuuga are capable of so don't even think about it. i'm not saying people are all correct, but many feel like she's a benchmark to a degree to say "_if even hinata can do it then you know the other members can_" and they use her as a starting point lol. i'm not gonna lie, i have said things similar, but ONLY regarding neji (and that was only in regards to her seeing over 10 KILOMETERS with _her byakugan_... which made me say... she can see 10... logically, neji can see that much if not more... then i go on to say that the manga has confirm him being able to see over at least 1 kilometer though...)anyway, the byakugan, at least a strong could possibly reveal things about madara that make him able to be dealt with more than you can imgine.



now you are using your imagination saying that madara has some grand weakness to reveal AND that a hyuuga would be apt to deal with it. for now he doesn't. it is a one way street with madara. he can only get stronger with more revelations.



> in any case... we shouldn't be basing much on him atm, since we know SOOO little, and he's wrapped in mystery



it is all hypothetical. no one is using anything as SOLID FACT. we are just saying... with what madara has shown he could unrelentingly massacre the hyuuga. hell that was probably the method he used to kill the uchiha.

they had nothing to harm him, and he had EVERYTHING to harm them.


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## olehoncho (Jun 20, 2009)

One of the problems with this exchange is that where on the Uchiha side we have clearly establish boss level characters to provide a perspective on how the powers work and by extension the clan.

On the Hyuuga side we only have two characters, both of which specialize in Tiajutsu (or at the very least that's all we really ever see them do).  Without knowing how Hyuuga use Ninjutsu or Genjutsu in concert with their other abilities (again something we haven't seen thus far) this whole debate is presumptuous.

The Absence of Evidence is not the Evidence of Absence.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 20, 2009)

DMV 
post 323

juuken is something that's as taught in the hyuuga clan as katon jutsu are taught to uchihas. genjutsu is something that uchihas MUST LEARN to use as well. they're not good at it without learning. case and point, neji was better at genjutsu than sasuke was until part 2 began... if i'm not mistaken. so taking away juuken, the style that is the pride of the clan and one of if not THE main reason they're seen as so strong is indeed ganking them. juuken is essential for this match up.

hyuugas DO naturally have ridiculou levels of chakra control. otherwise they wouldn't be able to learn and use juuken - *from the academy ages*. and mind you, it's clear that "back in the day" they graduated from the academy even earlier.

the byakugan senses and see just about all attacks within it's range. the uchiha can predict, but their prediction is, as i said, limited. kakashi was seen hit before. sasuke has been hit. and sasuke wasn't using the sharingan when bee first started to roll with the swords. he only used it to avoid a death blow - which ended in a scratch - but still proved that it wasn't perfect prediction and evasion. then moments later he gets screwed. it's not because the opponnet uses swords. the sharingan supposedly reads from the muscle movements so as long as the sword isn't moving indepently he should have read the movements. he did, but it wasn't enough... mostly due to his lack of skill in the area though... not speed - which the prediction is aimed at compensating for.

gettting back to the byakugan and what it sees and senses... there's a reason why neji was able to whip lee's butt, but sasuke got a kick in the face. because the byakugan can follow movement better than the sharingan and it can read the opponent too - just not see previews before the hit lol.

you also misunderstood me. it wasn't about people learning things fast. it's about people just being given things... and the sharingan just gives power... not the skil lthat comes with it. sasuke could have copied everything that lee knows, but without the inner knowledge of things he'd never be better at it. this has been by the example i gave earlier... and by i think his name was raido in yu yu hakushou... the guy who was stealing techniques. it's a fact that a copycat, 9/10 isn't as good as the original

regardless of how much insight the sharingan has... the byakugan's is better... especially when it comes to chakra related issues.

the branch members aren't merely weaker. they're JUST limited. nothing more nothing less. and even with knowledge an uchiha can't hope to merely evade _all day_ from the byakugan and juuken... on little graze and it's the beginning of a downward sent. chakra scalpels? tha's not a common thing you know. and we've never seen an uchiha with the needed chakra expertise and/or know how that hyuugas or medic ninjas have. so no, that wouldn't happen. 

the main probelm you're making is the same as many others... you think that the prediction ability is great than it is...._because_ of the vote fight... even though the ONLY reason naruto was kicking sasuke's ass is because of the speed he had. the sharingan cancelled that, and then sasuke superior taijutsu did the rest. even at equal taijutsu levels, as the hyuuga use a stronger style, they'll win a close quarters fight. the style is so substaintial... that it allowed neji to whip lee despite speed AND taijutsu (skill) disadvantages.

but it's no question that the sharingan just grants more power than the byakugan. but that doesn't mean it's better. there are reasons that the byakguan is so sought after. you're merely denying them... and you're denying the databooks blantant statements about "outstanding ability"


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 20, 2009)

olehoncho said:


> One of the problems with this exchange is that where on the Uchiha side we have clearly establish boss level characters to provide a perspective on how the powers work and by extension the clan.
> 
> On the Hyuuga side we only have two characters, both of which specialize in Tiajutsu (or at the very least that's all we really ever see them do).  Without knowing how Hyuuga use Ninjutsu or Genjutsu in concert with their other abilities (again something we haven't seen thus far) this whole debate is presumptuous.
> 
> The Absence of Evidence is not the Evidence of Absence.



I only use kekkei genkai, because with... the 10 years of training hinata had an uchiha could theoretically copy an endless amount of jutsu. they would be able to preform most if not all of them by her age. itachi was a squad leader. yes he was already a genius, but most of his prowress came from gaining the sharingan early.

two years after he graduated the academy, he was in a fight that hightened his survival instincts and or bloodlust enough to awaken his sharingan.

so it is ALWAYS better to start an uchiha off early. I have seen two year olds read effortlessly, so training an uchiha to the same degree hanabi and hinata were trained would DEFINATELY make them manefest the sharingan.

that is why the uchiha did not all have the sharingan. they didn't get trained at home by strict sensei. they mostly went to konoha academy which exposes them to little to no danger.

it is good to learn the fundamentals but there is nothing like torture to make a sharingan manefest.


so. if you gave an uchiha a head start like the hyuuga have, alowing a sharingan user to instruct them on its use I have no doubt that by thirteen the said uchiha would be a terror. they would most likely be at the same level as uchiha during the third war. UBER.

It is not fair to use hyuuga that automatically have jyuuken training and not have uchiha being trained in the same manner. instead of just jyuuken forms they learn every jutsu that isn't a secret in the village.

the fact is most... hyuugatards... try to nerf the uchiha, only giving them the sharingan and possibly goukyaku no jutsu, while every hyuuga magically has full knowledge and capability in using jyuuken, a style that normally takes years to master, and byakugan with enough chakra to force it open without seals, have it see to the maximum amount, and it is able to use methods never shown in the manga. the hyuuga also has maxed out his chakra control.


how is that fair? just use the pure specs with sharingan and byakugan. attach them to generic brawlers, let them only use the kekkei genkai, and see who wins.

the uchiha every time.


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## Legendary Madara (Jun 20, 2009)

I say Uchiha mainly because of Amaterasu.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 20, 2009)

post 324

what is this destiny jutsu you've been talking about?

madara can phase.... but idk where you go the hardening ability from.

the point on madara is that he DOES have something to be revealed that will make him vulnerable. maybe it's based on the kyuubi. maybe not... but either way... he's not invincible. that is a fact.

i did use some imagination to prove a point... that when both sides use that it works more so in the hyuuga favor.

i didn't act like the hyuuga can spam kaiten. they can just dodge. they've show themselves to be quite flexable, and with the byakugan... dodging attacks - even from behind - is quite feasible. and uchihas can't spam jutsus unless they have particularly large chakra capacities. but against a skilled hyuuga, even that would fail in most cases, and the uchiha would be exhausted.

you have some points in your argument... but so do i in mine. there is points to be made for both sides... but i think the hyuuga make the most sense. not based merely on the events nor the databook... but a combination of those plus logic and reasoning.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 20, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I only use kekkei genkai, because with... the 10 years of training hinata had an uchiha could theoretically copy an endless amount of jutsu. they would be able to preform most if not all of them by her age. itachi was a squad leader. yes he was already a genius, but most of his prowress came from gaining the sharingan early.
> 
> two years after he graduated the academy, he was in a fight that hightened his survival instincts and or bloodlust enough to awaken his sharingan.
> 
> ...



you're making some serious assumptions. you speak of strict senseis... the uchiha were the most prideful of clans and the most power hungry. do you logically think they'd just leave their people to fend for themselves. hell... sasuke didn't learn grandfireball at the academy lol. you'r emaking excuses for the uchihas.

when it came to the closing the eyes things and the eyelids. the byakugan def sees through eyelids... other wise they'd have more than one blind spot.

maybe you were refering to me... but i don't do those things you claimed. i don't act like all hyuugas are super strong - which is why i specify "skilled hyuuga" so often. i don't act like the range is maxed. for all either. nor the other things.

in the end... the uchiha are more powerful for the most part, as they are power based. the hyuuga are more skillful, as they are skill based.. but that's also what makes them stronger... because in regards to strength... when not at extreme levels, skill weighs more heavily than power does.


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## olehoncho (Jun 20, 2009)

I'll relent and say the Uchiha would win; but only because the majority of their genjutsu would be flashbacks of their angst-ridden pasts and the Hyuuga would sit there for a good two chapters until the plot gets back on track.


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## Mintaka (Jun 20, 2009)

The yamanaka clan.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 20, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> post 324
> 
> what is this destiny jutsu you've been talking about?


density. the property of tightness of molecular bonds. it is how hard you are or how intangible you are.

gasses have loose molecules so they are easy to scatter and very light. they have low density.

solids have strong tight molecular bonds so they take far more effort to seperate the molecules.

the lower the density, the more intangible, the higher the density the harder the object.





> madara can phase.... but idk where you go the hardening ability from.


not only can he just turn himself back to normal, which would still kill someone if in their brains, but he can become harder. this was shown when suigetsu charged him with the executioners sword. a sword that has cut rock, was simply... stoped in its' tracks. and from a swing made by a master swordsman who inhances his strength with suigowan no jutsu.





> the point on madara is that he DOES have something to be revealed that will make him vulnerable. maybe it's based on the kyuubi. maybe not... but either way... he's not invincible. that is a fact.


wel,l know hyuuga shown has it in their powerset to stop him.



> i did use some imagination to prove a point... that when both sides use that it works more so in the hyuuga favor.



wha???


i





> didn't act like the hyuuga can spam kaiten. they can just dodge. they've show themselves to be quite flexable, and with the byakugan... dodging attacks - even from behind - is quite feasible. and uchihas can't spam jutsus unless they have particularly large chakra capacities. but against a skilled hyuuga, even that would fail in most cases, and the uchiha would be exhausted.


good. cause to many tards do. dare to be different.

remember, they have equalized chakra. also I have never seen a overtly flexible hyuuga. they're style is based on balance when striking. that is why they seem very ground based. it was based off of baguazhang. a chinese martial art in the nejia family that translates to hakke in japanese.

eight trigrams palm.

also, the uchiha can see the hyuuga dodge before he does. so that... isn't going to last long.



> you have some points in your argument... but so do i in mine. there is points to be made for both sides... but i think the hyuuga make the most sense. not based merely on the events nor the databook... but a combination of those plus logic and reasoning.



hmm. I have no problem with hyuuga. I actually like them very much, but in pure specs... uchiha win. they just do. it's like rock,paper, scissors. and the sharingan pulls out a devil for the win.




shadow050 said:


> you're making some serious assumptions. you speak of strict senseis... the uchiha were the most prideful of clans and the most power hungry. do you logically think they'd just leave their people to fend for themselves. hell... sasuke didn't learn grandfireball at the academy lol. you'r emaking excuses for the uchihas.



technically they were only the second most powerhungry. the senju beat them for first. also, it is an assumption to say the uchiha are the most pridefull clan. they took scraps from the senju, shirked their pride for safety and comfort, and ended the beef by conseeding the win to the senju.

the uchiha only had self pride. they were proud to be uchiha, but I have only seen one disrespectful uchiha. I have only seen one bigoted uchiha. I have only seen one uchiha that gloats. Uchiha Sasuke. the rest are VERY humble, and are well mannered.

even fugaku who wanted to start an uprising tried to do it by taking over internally instead of rounding up the troops and destroying konoha. they wanted itachi to gain the highest seat of power in konoha and then use him to liberate the uchiha and have their turn at ruling a country that they rightfully split ownership with the senju.





> when it came to the closing the eyes things and the eyelids. the byakugan def sees through eyelids... other wise they'd have more than one blind spot.



as far as I know the byakugan needs the pupils to be exposed to use it. there has been nothing to lead the belief of the contrary. eyes just must be open to use doujutsu. period. that is a fact.




> maybe you were refering to me... but i don't do those things you claimed. i don't act like all hyuugas are super strong - which is why i specify "skilled hyuuga" so often. i don't act like the range is maxed. for all either. nor the other things



I generalized. wasn't aimed at you specificly. just some people who do that.



> in the end... the uchiha are more powerful for the most part, as they are power based. the hyuuga are more skillful, as they are skill based.. but that's also what makes them stronger... because in regards to strength... when not at extreme levels, skill weighs more heavily than power does.



wha??? uchiha are more powerful and skillfull at all but one thing.

byakugan vision. they cannot see all around them just all in front. they cannot see through objects. they cannot see tenketsu.

those are the only things hyuuga are proven better at.

they are worse at EVERYTHING else since the sharingan basicaly is born to make you awesome at each facet of ninjutsu and allows for each one to be enhanced. with the sharingan, taijutsu is enhanced, genjutsu is enhanced, and ninjutsu is learned faster.

the byakugan enhances vision and jyuuken use. that is all.


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## Attor (Jun 20, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> you do realize that if that were the case madara could single handedly walk to konoha right now and kill the entire village right? but he's not. because he's not what ya'll think he is.



You need to re read that conversation between Naruto and Minato. He sealed the fox within Naruto to protect the village and prevent from you just described happening. Because only an individual with the Kyuubi can stop Madara. 



> the part about speed of light was a hyperbole... it was even written as translators note before.



That's why I said comparable........


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## Bart (Jun 20, 2009)

Anbu Tenzou said:


> I say Uchiha mainly because of Amaterasu.



You do realise that not all of the Uchiha Clan have unlocked the Mangekyo Sharingan, right? 

We've stated earlier, that not all the Uchiha have unlocked the Sharingan, and most of the Clan during the period of the Uchiha Massacre would of had various stages such as the two tamoe, three tamoe or no Sharingan at all.


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## Bart (Jun 20, 2009)

Attor said:


> Madara could actually solo the Hyuuga. A special technique, involving the Kyuubi is needed to beat him. Hyuuga's don't have this so it would be impossible for them to beat him.



Hey, Attor 

I am not doubting Madara Uchiha's abilities, but you stated that the Hyuga Clan doesn't possess a special technique? They have Gentle Fist, which is very powerful when used accordingly.


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## Federer (Jun 20, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> You do realise that not all of the Uchiha Clan have unlocked the Mangekyo Sharingan, right?
> 
> We've stated earlier, that not all the Uchiha have unlocked the Sharingan, and most of the Clan during the period of the Uchiha Massacre would of had various stages such as the two tamoe, three tamoe or no Sharingan at all.



True,

but you should also mention that not every Hyuuga is as "good" as Neji. Most of them are like Hinata or less level, that's not impressive at all. Neji is like the "tensai" of the clan, the others aren't that much. 

I mean no Hyuuga is ever been a Hokage, or even considered as a Kage level shinobi. The same goes for the Uchiha, but they did have those shinobi, but they were just discriminated, because the Senju simply never trust them.


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## G-Man (Jun 20, 2009)

I love how pro-Hyuuga debaters point out very few Uchiha were ever at Itachi/Sasuke/Madara's level while ignoring that most Hyuuga are nowhere near Hiashi and Neji's level.


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## Bart (Jun 20, 2009)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> True,
> 
> but you should also mention that not every Hyuuga is as "good" as Neji. Most of them are like Hinata or less level, that's not impressive at all. Neji is like the "tensai" of the clan, the others aren't that much.
> 
> I mean no Hyuuga is ever been a Hokage, or even considered as a Kage level shinobi. The same goes for the Uchiha, but they did have those shinobi, but they were just discriminated, because the Senju simply never trust them.



Hey, Juracule  I have to say awesome avatar and signature  Federer is one of my favourites as well  True, not all have been shown to be good, but yet we've seen Uchiha such as Obito. I wouldn't say that Hinata's level is low, considering that her technique against Deva Pain was most impressive.

I do believe that they are other members of the Main House of the Hyuga Clan who may be stronger than Neji, but nonetheless what Neji has shown is extraordinary given that he had no training or guidance from the Main House.

I always say this, but what Neji had achieved with the Byakugan would be equivalent to someone mastering Calculus without learning Algebra or even having a Mathematical background. Which is why Hiashi was so surpised. I entirely agree with you're statement about the Uchiha, but there could potentially be a change, as Naruto plans to change the Hyuga and the Ninja System.


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## Mickey Mouse (Jun 20, 2009)

Everyone knows Kishi dropped the Hyuuga after Neji's fight all the way back in part 1. I mean thats all the ability your giving them?

 hell while we are at it we might as well also say Sharingan>Rinnegan


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## Attor (Jun 20, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Hey, Attor
> 
> I am not doubting Madara Uchiha's abilities, but you stated that the Hyuga Clan doesn't possess a special technique? They have Gentle Fist, which is very powerful when used accordingly.



Eh? No you've misunderstood. The special technique must involve the Kyuubi, according to Minato. Obviously Gentle Fist doesn't involve the Kyuubi.


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## Bart (Jun 20, 2009)

Attor said:


> Eh? No you've misunderstood. The special technique must involve the Kyuubi, according to Minato. Obviously Gentle Fist doesn't involve the Kyuubi.



Attor, thanks alot for the reply  Yondaime did not state that the special power must involve the Kyuubi, if I recall correctly.

"He too was a Shinobi of unfathomable power. No one could ever face him without a very unique set of abilities." - Yondaime, Chapter 440, Page 8.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 20, 2009)

*afternoon, bart.*



Bartallen2 said:


> True, not all have been shown to be good, but yet we've seen Uchiha such as Obito. I wouldn't say that Hinata's level is low, considering that her technique against Deva Pain was most impressive.




this is why using named individuals for this fight is always a bad idea. the two characters you named were weak because of their non-shinobi like behavior and aversion to fighting. so how are they going to give a good fight?

also, obito rocked hard for the last ten minutes of his life, and sacrificed it for his nakama. therefore regardless of slander, obito was win. secondly it is kind of unfair to compair a hyuuga who had REALLY tough training since she was three, to an uchiha who was brought up in the academy, AND only used the kekkei genkai for the last ten minutes of his life (which during he kicked silly amounts of ass.).

uchiha cannot florish without real battle, so it is unfair to use one who was uniquely cowardly. its like saying there are more meek hyuuga just like hinata.
she is unique and so was obito. their personalities are the ONLY reason they fail at being the best with their kekkei genkai.

so... please, consider using generic "battle dolls" with the kekkei genkai. it takes out CIS, PIS, and a plethora of other jutsu, atributes, and personality qwirks that destract people from the kekkei genkai's real power.

PS. all adult shinobi in the uchiha clan had the sharingan fully matured. this is supported by the pictures of the clan shinobi. the uchiha citizens did NOT have the sharingan because they never got into fights that made their blood boil with killer instinct.

It's like super-saiyan (for lack of a better example.) it can be trained into, but without any provocation or fighting, the sharingan stays dormant.





> I do believe that they are other members of the Main House of the Hyuga Clan who may be stronger than Neji, but nonetheless what Neji has shown is extraordinary given that he had no training or guidance from the Main House.
> 
> I always say this, but what Neji had achieved with the Byakugan would be equivalent to someone mastering Calculus without learning Algebra or even having a Mathematical background. Which is why Hiashi was so surpised. I entirely agree with you're statement about the Uchiha, but there could potentially be a change, as Naruto plans to change the Hyuga and the Ninja System.



There probably are. it is.

also, neji's achievement with the byakugan and jyuuken would be more like a child learning how to read after they heard the sounds of the alphabet for the first time. he didn't skip anything like learning calculus first. he just had what he knew and was possibly shown once or twice, worked out a theory and applied it.

also, neji did not just come up with it on his own. he knew and understood the mechanics of the jutsu. it was just supprising that he mastered them in one month. hakke jyuuken is shown by the hyuuga elite, it just isn't taught.

so neji probably saw someone do it, worked out how it was preformed, since with a strong byakugan, jyuuken taijutsu would be easy to understand.

"kaiten is a spin with all of your chakra points active, and rokujouyonsho is a strike to these sixty four tenketsu."

neji was amazing because with that vague knowledge he made it work, unlike average branch members who can't see tenketsu, let alone in battle.




Bartallen2 said:


> Attor, thanks alot for the reply  Yondaime did not state that the special power must involve the Kyuubi, if I recall correctly.
> 
> "He too was a Shinobi of unfathomable power. No one could ever face him without a very unique set of abilities." - Yondaime, Chapter 440, Page 8.



that is true, but there is NO power shown of the hyuuga clan that would even begin to work. Madara evades all physical harm. from chakra, from kinetic energy. all of it. he's like a ghost.

and emmiting unworked chakra from your fingers would never be a counter.


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## ☆ (Jun 20, 2009)

I believe so too, because everyone in their clan aren`t stupid idots.
I also think (imo) that Uchihas need a higher sharingan to beat the hyuuga. This brings them into fighting each other for the MS, or EMS.

While as the hyuuga are much more loyal, and established.

This is my opinion, and i dont have any manga proof. Dont bug me about it.


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## αce (Jun 20, 2009)

Uchiha clan-
Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, Shisui

Hyuuga clan-
Neji


Lol, it's over, we won.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 20, 2009)

Glowpop said:


> I believe so too, because everyone in their clan aren`t stupid idots.
> I also think (imo) that Uchihas need a higher sharingan to beat the hyuuga. This brings them into fighting each other for the MS, or EMS.
> 
> While as the hyuuga are much more loyal, and established.
> ...



I am sorry, but I can't help it... its outlandish. hyuuga are more loyal??? are you serious?! 80% of them are enslaved by their own family! they cannot disobey under the pain of death. they have no choice but to be loyal because one wrong move and... melty brains.

and jyuuken is not a kekkei genkai, so you can't say uchiha need a better sharingan to beat a jyuuken using hyuuga. you are taking away all of the uchiha's potential jutsu. jyuuken was made for the hyuuga so there has to be some balance. both are trained to the brink, or neither is. otherwise you are weighing the fight in your favor.

finally the uchiha were the strongest clan in the village, until they died. official. hyuuga were the best at hand to hand because of jyuuken. official.

so saying that the hyuuga were more established, when they don't even really have their own jobs, unlike the uchiha military police, is jive. 
they are alive. that is why they seem more established. because the uchiha establishment was destroyed with konoha's whim. it was implied that konoha could do the same to hyuuga if need be.

finally, until further notice uchiha genjutsu work like a charm.


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## principito (Jun 20, 2009)

PushMeAway said:


> Sharingan is beyond compare. *COmparing Uchiha and Hyuuga is like comparing a Volkswagen Beetle and an F1 Ferrari.* Its pretty obvious that Uchiha is far superior clan. Even Kishi pointed it out. I have no doubt that Sasuke can even wipe-out all the Hyuugas now. Or even the revered Itachi can do that.
> 
> Dont despair my friend. An inferior and underdog Uzamaki will dispose all that Uchiha one by one for you...



This is the worst half-assed comparison I've ever seen


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 20, 2009)

principito said:


> This is the worst half-assed comparison I've ever seen



I'll give a better comparison. hyuuga are to satilite tracking systems, as uchiha are to super computers.

the satilite can see anything anywhere, but that is all it can do.

the supercomputer can copy and paste information at staggering amounts, do complex computations faster than the human brain can send signals, and it can induce abnormal effects and control on the human brain... with porn. and the internet. and imagehosting sights

genjutsu if I ever saw it


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## αce (Jun 20, 2009)

Comparing Uchiha and Hyuuga is like comparing God to men. It's an insult.


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## principito (Jun 20, 2009)

I wasn't going to reply here, but you really screwed in every sentence of this post.



Glowpop said:


> I believe so too, because everyone in their clan aren`t stupid idots..



Neji before Naruto's fight was a jerk. Hiashi's brother wasn't a charm either. Hinata's personality is far from normal. So there.



> I also think (imo) that Uchihas need a higher sharingan to beat the hyuuga. This brings them into fighting each other for the MS, or EMS.



3 tomoe Sharingan would be a perfect match for any hyuuga. No siblings-killing there. MS might be a little too much.



> While as the hyuuga are much more loyal, and established.



Yeah, half the clan enslaves the other half. Thats how loyal they are, needing a cursed seal to keep the slaves at doing their job. As for the stablishment, Uchiha's where the police and had their rules within them, like a mini estate within Konoha (reason they got vanished by the way)



> This is my opinion, and i dont have any manga proof. Dont bug me about it



I do have manga proof for what I posted so don't bug me either.

But... its your opinion so I respect it as such.


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## principito (Jun 20, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Comparing Uchiha and Hyuuga is like comparing God to men. It's an insult.



I admire thy determination dear friend.

Its more like comparing men (hyuuga) to very powerful men (Uchiha), but I got your back any time.


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## αce (Jun 20, 2009)

principito said:


> I admire thy determination dear friend.
> 
> Its more like comparing men (hyuuga) to very powerful men (Uchiha), *but I got your back any time*.



That's all I needed to hear


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## Sarry (Jun 20, 2009)

The Uchiha is stronger, granted not all males get the Sharingan, but the Uchiha were a warrior clan; the Hyuuga(as used by Konoha) ninjas are scouts and mini mobile radars, they are good at close range, but I doubt that they are any good at long range.

Uchiha's fighting style is more diverse in the sense that they could copy their enemies' move, and predict their movements, while the Hyuuga's style revolved around close range fighthing, and they don't use any elemental jutsu.


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## Bart (Jun 20, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> this is why using named individuals for this fight is always a bad idea. the two characters you named were weak because of their non-shinobi like behavior and aversion to fighting. so how are they going to give a good fight?
> 
> PS. all adult shinobi in the uchiha clan had the sharingan fully matured. this is supported by the pictures of the clan shinobi. the uchiha citizens did NOT have the sharingan because they never got into fights that made their blood boil with killer instinct.
> 
> It's like super-saiyan (for lack of a better example.) it can be trained into, but without any provocation or fighting, the sharingan stays dormant.



Good post  Indeed, but not all adult Shinobi within the Uchiha Clan have been confirmed to have fully matured their Sharingan. Obviously, there would be different tamoe variations etc.

I agree that comparisons between such characters is very unwise.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> There probably are. it is. also, neji's achievement with the byakugan and jyuuken would be more like a child learning how to read after they heard the sounds of the alphabet for the first time. he didn't skip anything like learning calculus first. he just had what he knew and was possibly shown once or twice, worked out a theory and applied it.
> 
> so neji probably saw someone do it, worked out how it was preformed, since with a strong byakugan, jyuuken taijutsu would be easy to understand. neji was amazing because with that vague knowledge he made it work, unlike average branch members who can't see tenketsu, let alone in battle.



I beg to differ. Considering what Neji stated within Part I, him being shown or watching the Main House would be out of the question. Not to mention that the Branch House would possibly be segregated from the Main House, as Lee stated that rules were established to put the Main House at an advantage.

Jyuuken would be easy to understand? Kakashi even stated that the Hyuga Clan possesses the greatest bloodline of Konoha, so I somewhat doubt that, considering the reaction from Hiashi and especially what the Third Hokage said when watching Neji. 

"No wonder why he's called a genius even among the Hyuga Clan." - Hiruzen Sarutobi, Third Hokage, Chapter 79, Page 16.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> that is true, but there is NO power shown of the hyuuga clan that would even begin to work. Madara evades all physical harm. from chakra, from kinetic energy. all of it. he's like a ghost and emmiting unworked chakra from your fingers would never be a counter.



Yondaime stated that a Shinobi needs a special power in order to contend with the power of Madara Uchiha. A Kekkei Genkai is a special technique, which is passed down from one generation to a next via genetics, for example Mokuton.

Theoretically, why shouldn't Gentle Fist? You're also forgetting that such Chakra is able to be released from any part of one's body, and it's strength against Chakra-based substances.


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## αce (Jun 20, 2009)

Lol, even Mikoto was a jounin. It's over we won.


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## Bart (Jun 20, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Lol, even Mikoto was a jounin. It's over we won.



Yeah, Mikoto is at that level. However, we don't know what tamoe she had, or if she actually possessed the Sharingan. Afterall, the Sharingan is unlocked through certain circumstances.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 20, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Good post  Indeed, but not all adult Shinobi within the Uchiha Clan have been confirmed to have fully matured their Sharingan. Obviously, there would be different tamoe variations etc.
> 
> I agree that comparisons between such characters is very unwise.


every adult shinobi who was shown in a group shot had sharingan. MASTERED.
it can be trained, remember that. it is not all tragedy that causes it to mature, it can that way, but training it like a muscle upgrades it too.





> I beg to differ. Considering what Neji stated within Part I, him being shown or watching the Main House would be out of the question. Not to mention that the Branch House would possibly be segregated from the Main House, as Lee stated that rules were established to put the Main House at an advantage.
> 
> Jyuuken would be easy to understand? Kakashi even stated that the Hyuga Clan possesses the greatest bloodline of Konoha, so I somewhat doubt that, considering the reaction from Hiashi and especially what the Third Hokage said when watching Neji.



remember, neji watched over hinata when she trained with hiashi. he always has. also to think it is impossible to watch the members of the main branch far away with the byakugan... it's almost too easy.

and yes, the theory of jyuuken was explained in one minute to genin. it is easy to understand. the theory is quite simple, it is the application that is hard. emit chakra and spin. that is kaiten, but you need to have good momentum, balance, and be able to emit chakra from your whole body.

all are dificult to DO but easy to understand.




> "No wonder why he's called a genius even among the Hyuga Clan." - Hiruzen Sarutobi, Third Hokage, Chapter 79, Page 16.





> it is because his growth rate, and his skill with the byakugan. he does things that branch members are not able to.
> 
> Yondaime stated that a Shinobi needs a special power in order to contend with the power of Madara Uchiha. A Kekkei Genkai is a special technique, which is passed down from one generation to a next via genetics, for example Mokuton.
> 
> Theoretically, why shouldn't Gentle Fist? You're also forgetting that such Chakra is able to be released from any part of one's body, and it's strength against Chakra-based substances.



so why didn't he just make sure that naruto got with hinata??? why didn't the hyuuga clan use their eyes to look for madara, and use jyuuken on an intangible being. the body cannot touch him, and the highest shaped jutsu made of raw chakra made him lol.

uchiha have nothing on him... also, jyuuken is used to interupt the flow of chakra between things being fed chakra. it blocked the web's flow turning it into regular web. madara is not a web. and he is not feeding himself with a wave of chakra, otherwise rasengan, which has a higher concentration of chakra would have destroyed it.

chakra inhanced items are not indestructible, there just needs to be something with higher chakra to destroy it. so that point is null.




Bartallen2 said:


> Yeah, Mikoto is at that level. However, we don't know what tamoe she had, or if she actually possessed the Sharingan. Afterall, the Sharingan is unlocked through certain circumstances.


anger, bloodlust, survival instinct. when any of those overrides the rest of your senses, the sharingan comes out. as a ninja, unless she pwned all opposition, she would have manefested the sharingan. as a jounin, she would have used it long enough to open the third tomoe set.

it took sasuke six months to open the 3-6 tomoe. to be a jounin you have to be a genin, chuunin,  and then you get elected for jounin rank if you are highly decerated. if she was a blood uchiha (I think so.)

she would have had the sharingan.


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## Attor (Jun 20, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Yondaime stated that a Shinobi needs a special power in order to contend with the power of Madara Uchiha. A Kekkei Genkai is a special technique, which is passed down from one generation to a next via genetics, for example Mokuton.
> 
> Theoretically, why shouldn't Gentle Fist? You're also forgetting that such Chakra is able to be released from any part of one's body, and it's strength against Chakra-based substances.



No dude, you didn't read the whole thing. He then goes onto to say that _that_ is why he sealed the fox within Naruto, because the Kyuubi power is the _special power_ needed to prevent the village from destruction 

The point I am trying to make is made very clear if you read the conversation from the page below:


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## Shadow050 (Jun 20, 2009)

Evil said:


> Databook 3
> 
> With their overwhelming doujutsu, they subdued the other clans one by one.
> 
> ...



the hyuuga didn't even appear to be present in that story by madara - and the databook seems to be restating the story he told - whioch we know he lied about some parts in (such as not causing the kyuubi attack... revealed that he did by the 4th hokage in naruto's mind).

and as i showed, there are statements in the manga and databook claiming the hyuuga to be the strongest and have the most outstanding ability too. 

like i said, as far as sources are concerned, they're basically equal. but once we start considering OTHER things, the hyuuga appear stronger. 


are you crazy? sasuke isn't even stronger than "what we know" of neji... which is less than that of sasuke... are the remain two stronger than the whole hyuuga? long story short, all of sasuke's jutsu would be ineffective against neji. amaterasu is the only possiblity and even that can be "blocked" by kaiten (since amaterasu would burn chakra itself). eventually a worn out sasuke would be defeated by tired neji. or sasuke's arrogance would get him killed. we saw the fool fight kirabee and almost get killed due to his ever consistent arrogance (existing since the first chapter he appeared in). he'd make that same stupid mistake against neji and get killed early... unless he magically receives info on the hyuuga.

madara will be figured out sooner or later. we just don't know much about him atm.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 20, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> more power equals better. it is a universal law. the sharingan can instantly copy all knowledge of movement seen. knowledge is power.
> 
> and yes the byakugan is a hot item. it is a sweet kekkei genkai, I never denied this. the problem is that isn't what this is about.
> 
> the sharingan is better than the byakugan. just like an ferrari is better than a hooptie.



that's not true. 
more power isn't necessarily "better" especially when it's just handed to you.

the powers granted by the two make the byakugan better... so long as one practices and strengthens it.

the hyuuga don't have "evolutions" so far, but their is strength differences. there isn't a huge difference between strength differences and evolutions, and evolutions of the sharingan lead it to be stronger and open new abilities... and the stronger byakugan provides new abilities.

to you.. it'd be better to have something that just works automatically... to me something you can train and strengthen is better... cause YOU control how strong it is and gets. something like kaiten has been proven to block EVERY single uchiha non-genjutsu attack we've seen - including amaterasu (oh... one exception to susanoo... but that's a grey area considering itachi fitted it with mystic weapons lol).

and i've been over the genjutsu... which can be seen through by the byakugan unless the manga just did something assinine. (the hinata confriming something is not genjutsu event).

in the end... the most important thing is that the hyuuga are stronger


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## Attor (Jun 20, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> in the end... the most important thing is that the hyuuga are stronger



One Uchiha individual could solo the entire Hyuuga clan. Madara. Now, if we are going to add other Uchiha's like Sasuke and Itachi into the equation, it's just going to be insult to injury.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 20, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> that's not true.
> more power isn't necessarily "better" especially when it's just handed to you.
> 
> 
> ...


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## αce (Jun 20, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> in the end... the most important thing is that the hyuuga are stronger



I lawled at this.

Madara>Hyuuga clan.


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## -= Ziggy Stardust =- (Jun 20, 2009)

holyshit this actully went on for 19 pages ,i'm impressed yet dissapointed that people actully need to argue this .

Uchiha >> Hyuuga , sorry to break the  bubble


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## olehoncho (Jun 20, 2009)

Tenjin said:


> holyshit this actully went on for 19 pages ,i'm impressed yet dissapointed that people actully need to argue this .
> 
> Uchiha >> Hyuuga , sorry to break the  bubble



Oh noes, the bubble is broken.
Quick, President Obama needs to appoint a Clan Czar.


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## Bart (Jun 21, 2009)

Attor said:


> No dude, you didn't read the whole thing. He then goes onto to say that _that_ is why he sealed the fox within Naruto, because the Kyuubi power is the _special power_ needed to prevent the village from destruction
> 
> The point I am trying to make is made very clear if you read the conversation from the page below:
> 
> ...



Yondaime stated that he sealed the Kyuubi within Naruto becuase, firstly, he thought that he could learn to use it someday and, secondly, no one could ever face Madara without a very unique set of abilities.

Kekkei Genkai are a unique set of abilities. Why do you think Shodia stood toe-to-toe with Madara? Or the fact that Itachi would have killed Madara, had it not been for Madara hiding several secrets away from him?


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## kiss me! (Jun 21, 2009)

Uchiha's are the *shiz* they make up half the story line...


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## αce (Jun 21, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Yondaime stated that he sealed the Kyuubi within Naruto becuase, firstly, he thought that he could learn to use it someday and, secondly, no one could ever face Madara without a very unique set of abilities.
> 
> Kekkei Genkai are a unique set of abilities. Why do you think Shodia stood toe-to-toe with Madara? Or the fact that Itachi would have killed Madara, had it not been for Madara hiding several secrets away from him?



Shodai never had kekkai genkai. But he did have the ability to bend bijuu's will to his own. It's not unreasonable to think that Shodai negated any effect kyuubi had on the battle.


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## Bart (Jun 21, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Shodai never had kekkai genkai. But he did have the ability to bend bijuu's will to his own. It's not unreasonable to think that Shodai negated any effect kyuubi had on the battle.



Shodai had a Kekkei Genkai - it's called Mokuton. Similar to Yamato. Why do you think that Orochimaru was experimenting with such a thing? Do you remember what Jiraiya stated?

"Uchiha Madara having been defeated by the First Hokage at the Valley of the End is something known by all." - Jiraiya, Chapter 370, Page 16.


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## αce (Jun 21, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Shodai had a Kekkei Genkai - it's called Mokuton. Similar to Yamato. Why do you think that Orochimaru was experimenting with such a thing? Do you remember what Jiraiya stated?
> 
> "Uchiha Madara having been defeated by the First Hokage at the Valley of the End is something known by all." - Jiraiya, Chapter 370, Page 16.



Kekkai genkai is passed down through blood lines.

If it was a kekkai genkai, Nidaime and Tsuande would have it. But they don't.

Yamato is made up of the first's D.N.A.. Moukuton is the combination of suiton and doton, it's not really a bloodline limit, but the first and yamato are the only peeople who could do it.

And the "special abilities" don't have to be bloodline limits.


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## HyuugaProdigy (Jun 21, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> lies. prejudiced lies. anyone who isn't trolling would see that in a straight up comparison, there is no way that a byakugan user would beat a sharingan user straight up.  there would always be some kind of outside advantage that they would HAVE. to have.
> 
> enviroment that benefits the byakugan only.
> 
> ...



^ this is total BS. show me the scans or the quotes from kishi that confirm this- otherwise it's just your opinion on the subject and not cannon. not every fight is going 2b face 2 face, infact if there was a clan war betten uchiha and hyuuga a lot of the fights would b a couple of clan members hiding and trying 2 ambush of sniper a couple of other clan members- in which case the hyuuga would have a clear advantage.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> wrong. the byakugan has the same moveset the whole time. it only gets enhanced more and more. they do not get new abilities. abilities are just revealed one at a time. they are always there.



once again post the scans or the quotes from kishi that confirm this- otherwise it's just your opinion. we haven't been told how the byakugan progresses or if there are any further levels 2 it. all we do know is that neji was able 2 train his byakugan so that it considerably increased in range and strength.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> what? you control how strong it gets.... what the hell does that mean?
> *"I can see across the planet!" yet they don't know how to do simple jutsu.* remember, all of that training takes time. you cannot become great at everything... unless you are an uchiha.



where does it say that the hyuuga don't have ninjutsu???? once again u are making stuff up that's not cannon. infact if u look at the databook stats u will see that all the hyuuga have ninjutsu stats and that neji and hiashi both have a jonin level of ninjutsu

*Neji:* Nin 4 - Tai 4.5 - Gen 2 - Int 3 - Str 2.5 - Spe 4.5 - Sta 3.5 - Sea 3

*Hyuuga Hiashi:* Nin- 3.5- Tai- 5 Gen 2- Int 3- Str 3.5- Spe 4- Sta 4- Sea 5

as far as we know the only shinobi without ninjutsu in rock lee

*Rock Lee:* Nin 0 - Tai 5 - Gen 1 - Int 2 - Str 4.5 - Spe 4.5 - Sta 3.5 - Sea 1

u 4get that like the uchiha the hyuuga are also a genius clan so their members in the acadeny must all b able 2 have mastered the basic ninjutsu skills. lt's also false that the uchiha are good at eveything this is just pure bias; even itachi- the uchihas pride and joy- didn't think too highly of his own clans ability
Link removed
Link removed



dark messiah verdandi said:


> hyuuga waste time doing all that training.



the uchiha also have 2 train as well otherwise they too like any other shinobi will end up being fail. look at every uchiha who was worth mentioning and u will see that they had 2 train hard , they may have had lots of natural talent, but that talent would get nowhere without training, the same goes 4 the hyuuga. the hyuuga are a genius clan like the uchiha  and the hyuga are also fast learners because of their byakugan. they may not instantly understand a jutsu like a well trained uchiha with 3 tommo sharingan, however the insight of the byakugan helps them understand chakra and it's flow 2 a level that makes them able 2 control it like no other clan can and that can only speed up the time in learning a jutsu.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> I do not remember this event. please provide scans.



i think shadow was refering 2 this scan
Link removed
the scan stongly implies that the byakugan has the ability 2 see through genjutsu. this hasn't yet been confirmed however the fact that the byakugan's insight is so powerful and that the byakugan can see chakra would stongly suggest that the byakugan can see through genjutsu; this wouldn't be surprising at all because the main reason why the sharingan can see through genjutsu is because of it's remarkable insight:

(taken from the naruto databook)
*Sharingan translation:  
Kekkei Genkai: Sharingan
Users: Hatake Kakashi, Uchiha Sasuke
Support, Short, Mid, Long ranges. Rank: none.

Main text

The Kekkei Genkai held in the blood of Konoha's finest lineage, the Uchiha clan. This unique ability, manifested only in a mere fraction [of people] even within the clan, is characterized by comma*-shaped markings in one's pupils. On top of an all-encompassing insight and powerful hypnosis, these eyes are hosts to a jutsu-copying ability that memorizes the techniques their gaze falls upon in an instant, and replicates them. Just like Kakashi who, in his fight against Zabuza, used it in such a way as to look like he could predict the future; according to their methods of use, the field of variations the caster can apply to their offense and defense expands indefinitely!!

The power of insight hidden inside these eyes discerns the mechanics of all ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu without restriction, putting it above the crowd even by doujutsu standards...* 

however it's been stated by the kakashi that the byakugan's insight is even greater than that of the sharingans
Link removed
this means that the byakugan should also have the ability 2 see through genjutsu like the shringan; hinata's statement in chapter 394 all but confirmed this to b true.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> also, there are paralyisis jutsu and hypnotic jutsu. those are the more potent of the rest, so... can a hyuuga naturally dispel that? hell no.



that depends on the level of the hyuuga's chakra control. if they have mastered the jyuuken it's more than likely that they would have the chakra control needed 2 dispel sharingan genjutsu as long as it's not tsukiyomi.




dark messiah verdandi said:


> *hyuuga are weaker and that is supported by the manga.* you keep on about how the byakugan has no limits. it does. the limit is the user. unless they can continue on with higher and more potent chakra, then they have a ceiling.



please show me the manga scans that confirm this, otherwise it's just your bias opinion.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> *the sharingan works the same way. the more chakra you use to fuel it, the better your eyes.* it sees quicker, casts more potent genjutsu, predicts better and sees more. yet, as soon as the user cannot beat their personal best, the sharingan becomes stagnant at its level of power.



no the sharingan doesn't work that way that's just your opinion on the way the sharingan works and isn't cannon, show me the scans that say this is true or at least a statement made by kishi that confirms this. from what we have seen even uchiha's with low stamina- like itachi- have the potential 2 progress 2 the highest level of the sharinagans abiliy.

*Itachi Uchiha:* Nin 5 - Tai 4.5 - Gen 5 - Int 5 - Str 3.5 - Spe 5 - Sta 2.5 - Sea 5

infact when  itachi was speaking 2 sasuke he implied that the level 1 can attain with the sharingan is down 2 your genetic inheritance of how much of the uchiha bloodline your eyes are born with 
natural
this is further implied by statements made by tobi/madara
Link removed
this is also implied by the fact that very few uchiha have sharingan and even then their level of sharingan isn't equal.


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## Attor (Jun 21, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Yondaime stated that he sealed the Kyuubi within Naruto becuase, firstly, he thought that he could learn to use it someday and, secondly, no one could ever face Madara without a very unique set of abilities.
> 
> Kekkei Genkai are a unique set of abilities. Why do you think Shodia stood toe-to-toe with Madara? Or the fact that Itachi would have killed Madara, had it not been for Madara hiding several secrets away from him?



That's a bad translation you have pointed out. Several others translators phrase it in a more appropriate way: 'special power.' Now, look at Minato's reasoning:

-Minato, the genius he is, worked out that night that a *special* power is needed to beat him.

-Knowing this, he sealed the fox within Naruto so that when Madara strikes again, he can used it (the special power) to protect the village. See the pattern? He worked out the special power _is_ the fox and that is why he sealed it.

As you can see, it will take more then a set of skills unique to clans to beat Madara. It isn't that simple.. Gentle Fist would do nothing when Madara can have attacks like that phrase through him.. And you saw what a failure Shino's bugs were.  To beat Madara you need a specific power, a _special power_ different to want we have seen, that is found in the Kyuubi. I can't actually think of any Clan abilities that would work on Madara's phasing ability.


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## HyuugaProdigy (Jun 21, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Kekkai genkai is passed down through blood lines.
> 
> If it was a kekkai genkai, Nidaime and Tsuande would have it. But they don't.
> 
> ...



actually bartallen is right, moukuton is a kekkai genkai
very bad man.
very bad man.
very bad man.

that's why only yamato and shodai b4 him can use it. it's a KG that only hashirama senju possesed natuarally and wasn't passed on 2 any of his desendants
very bad man.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 21, 2009)

Hyuuga, there are only two Uchiha left.


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## αce (Jun 21, 2009)

WraithX959 said:


> Hyuuga, there are only two Uchiha left.



Madara>Hyuuga clan.

And if that's not enough,

Sasuke+Madara>Hyuuga clan.


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## axellover2 (Jun 21, 2009)

In the end we all know how much Kishi loves the Uchiha and their sharingan.So they most likely are stronger.Lol look at what he did to the rinnengan when it looked like something could one up it.Although the Hyuuga clan seems to have less drawbacks with their power,the way the sharingan can advance just puts the other clan at a disadvantage.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

wow... somebody is losing they're cool and with it their sensibility.

*DMV post 363*

the abilities always exist with teh byakugan?
WRONG.
they always exist. a weak byakugan - one that CAN'T see tenketsu WILL NEVER be able to pull a technique like 64 palms. EVER. and this is why, though the byakugan doesn't actually evolve, persay, it DOES have different strength levels (for lack of a better term) that open new abilities or possibilities h/e you'd like to put it.

hyuuga can't do "simple jutsu". 
idiotic.
Neji was the "number one rookie"... only an idiot assumes neji could be the number one rookie without being able to do "simple jutsu". 

sure, kaiten has never been seen blocking an uchiha jutsu.... but umm... that's because they haven't fought. anyone reading the description on kaiten will deduce that it will block something like a katon.

anyone who actually read and saw the itachi vs sasuke chapters KNOWS that amaterasu BURNED FIRE. tell me... how could amaterasu burn fire, but _not burn a solid rotating wall of chakra_? that's why one using logic as opposed to the "wow" factor posed by amaterasu will understand that amaterasu would burn up the chakra of kaiten - which is constantly being emitted during the spin, and as long as the chakra is there to be burn, that chakra will be burned instead of the user and the technique will work effectively as a "block" to amaterasu. 

jutsu COPIED by an uchiha DO NOT COUNT AS UCHIHA JUTSU! but i'm fair enough to be like w/e let them use their copied jutsu in this mock fight. so long as the hyuuga can use everything they can do as well. juuken kills the uchiha EVERYTIME. 

in a stright up fight, there isn't anyway that the uchiha wins. juuken is a better fighting style and it's the BASIS of the hyuuga fighting style. EVERY SINGLE MEMBER IS TAUGHT JUUKEN. and  it can only be done by the hyuuga. so whether it's a "byakugan ability" or not, it's an ability there oly because of the byakugan... just like a copied ability - be it taijutsu, ninjutsu or genjutsu is only able to be done due to the sharingan coping it... meaning the sharingan didn't automatically come and allow it to be done.

the sharingan alone does these things:
1) copy - nin, gen, and taijutsu - and understand their workings
2) allow chakra to be seen
3) hypnotize people who stare into the eyes like idiots
4) cast genjutsu from the eyes
5) predict movements RIGHT BEFORE they occur

it DOES NOT
- grant equal mastery over the jutsu that the original user had/has (proven in the manga)
- predict things so perfectly that it provides a perfect untouchable defense

the byakugan allows:
1) nearly 360 degree vision
2) the ability to "sense" attacks/movement within the byakugan's radius
3) allow chakra, the chakra network, and chakra flow to be seen and understood with ease
4) clearly, one way or another, it allows the user to have great chakra control (maybe due to their ability to see the networks and gain understanding of them idk, but the fact remains)
5) "penetrating" (as you like to put it) vision

the sharingan is not as superb nor superior as you'd  like to make it out to be.

the hyuuga don't need some convenient enviornmental advantge for a win either. idon't know how you came up with that.

can the hyuuga naturally dispel something based COMPLETELY on maniputaling/controlling the victim's chakra? HELL YES. like i said, they understand that better than anyone and control it better than anyone, so it's illogical to suggest that they won't be able to break out of something like that due to how impressed you are with what you've seen the jutsus do. which haven't been much. paralysis was on orochi - HOW DOES NOT POSSESS HYUUGA CHAKRA CONTROL, but he was going to break it too until itachi cut off his hand (because the paralysis isn't quite as serious the word's meaning is). the hypnotism is not big deal. zabuza figured it out after just a couple of events _even while he was freaking out_ over what kakashi was doing... and zabuza doesn't possess the eyes of a hyuuga which allows makes it easier to figure out such things, as the analytical ability it imbues has been noted.

hyuuga being "weaker" is NOT supported by the manga. the uchiha are depicted as a power hungry clan who met their demise at the hand of their own people. they're called tragic and such. were they strong? certainly. but were/is the hyuuga? certainly, without all the extra BS. do they have their own issues? yup, to protect their blood they had made a pretty extreme system. but guess what? they still live. and, the manga supports them being stronger equal if not more - EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE A SUPPORTING SIDE OF THE STORY. why doens't that set off any alarms in the heads of more people?

it's simple... if I am the main character, and you are a side character... and we look quite close in terms of strength... when truth be told, you're more than likely, _actually_ the one who's stronger.

and more power isn't always better i nthe way you make it out to be. if i copy something with the sharingan from you, you mostly likely will still use it more skillfully than me. it's that simple. due to that, at mature levels with skill individuals, my eye wouldn't necessarily be better than yours - if you have the byakugan, because you can make all the crap i've copied useless. 

here's a way for to clear this power issue up. a desert eagle gun being handed to you without learning anything about how to use it. a person given a pistol they've learned EVERYTHING about. the user with the pistol would be FAR more skilled with everything they did with the pistol, but the person with the desert eagle would possess the a highly destructive weapon that they don't know much about or how to properly use/handle. the first person possess MORE POWER but the second person is by far the stronger/better gunman, is he not? of course he is... due to skill. 

or... maybe i was wrong is saying the sharingan is more powerful at the beginning or w/e it was i initially said in that statement. because BOTH require _something else_ in order to be made significant anyway. BOTH require trianning and experiences to be made useful/good/better/etc. the main point i wanted to express anyway, was that the sharingan seems better at first (to people) but it actually isn't. the same way it seems like a person just giving some fish, instead of teaching you to fish for youself seems better at first. people feel the sharingan is more instant gratification and therefore it's better, but logical mature people know that it's rare that instant gratification is better in the end.


*kaiten couldn't even block kyuubi chakra.*

i can't believe you said that.
1) that chakra is the strongest substance we've seen in the entire series.
2) it did block it... it just resulted in it cancelling out which caused and explosion which wound have defeated naruto by itself if he didn't have that same chakra protecting/healing him similtaneously.

*I do not remember this event. please provide scans.*
[/SPOILER]
there it is. sakura asked hinata if it could be a genjutsu. the simple fact that she asked her proves that she could determine if it was or if it wasn't via her byakugan. 99/100 the reason that would be able to be determined by a doujutsu (especially one that sees the way the byakugan does and has been said to be able to see through everything,etc) that means they can see through it. but we also know kakashi is there and she didn't ask him... instead she asked the byakugan user, which implies she would know even better than a possessor of your seemingly viewed godly sharingan eye.

being that all of them were witnessing the same things, it also means implies that sakura would have been asking if it was genjutsu while believe hinata to be in it too, which says hinata would have been able to se through it to determine that they weren't in one. instead though, they happened to not be in one and she ended up only confirming that they weren't.

i hope to god my next post here makes this all more clear.

and *taka post 364*

how many people are going to tell you one person doesn't equal the clan. i was saying the hyuuga clan is still stronger than the uchiha clan was.


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## AugustFlame (Jun 22, 2009)

Ok so your asking us.............Uchiha Clan,The hyuuga Clan has no chance against the Sharingan but considering ther all dead....But still Uchiha all the way!and plus neji is a snob some times


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## Bart (Jun 22, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Kekkai genkai is passed down through blood lines.
> 
> If it was a kekkai genkai, Nidaime and Tsuande would have it. But they don't.
> 
> ...



You think that Shodai didn't have a Kekkei Genkai?  The combination of such elements can be classed as a Kekkei Genkai, according to Kakashi, as he made the following statement:

"That's what's called a Kekkei Genkai. You've atleast heard of this term, right? The boy, Haku, you once fought had that too. He was able to use the bloodline limit of Hyouton. He controlled two elements, Wind and Water, to create Ice. That's a special Jutsu which can only be used by those born into a Clan with a bloodlimit." - Kakashi, Chapter 316, Page 8.


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## LikeMike23 (Jun 22, 2009)

until hinata or neji can evolve their byakugan.... uchiha all the way.


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## zuul (Jun 22, 2009)

Hyuga, the Uchiha clan doesn't exist anymore, unless Sasuke find a way to reproduce with his clones via buttsex, which I would approve.


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## Zabuza (Jun 22, 2009)

Uchiha clan is the weakest.
Beeing decimated by only one person? 

Something is wrong with this poll results.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 22, 2009)

When people speak of the uchiha clan they are speaking about the time when the clan was around.


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## Gunners (Jun 22, 2009)

Where do people get the idea that they don't fully mature their sharingan? 3 tome sharingan seemed standard amongst the older Uchiha members. 

Anyway without going into it too much. One Uchiha (Itachi) could likely annihilate the Hyuuga clan single handily.


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## Bart (Jun 22, 2009)

Recca said:


> Where do people get the idea that they don't fully mature their sharingan? 3 tome sharingan seemed standard amongst the older Uchiha members.



Not all the Uchiha have Sharingan, which was suggested within Part I. And, even out of those, not every Uchiha had the three tomoe, and of those, Itachi was the only one that achieved Mangekyo, apart from Madara and Izuna. It almost works like a pyramid, whereas every single Hyuga has the Byakugan.



Recca said:


> Anyway without going into it too much. One Uchiha (Itachi) could likely annihilate the Hyuuga clan single handily.



First and foremost, the only reason that the Uchiha Clan was killed is because everyone was surprised, he caught them all by surprise. Not to mention that Madara was involved in such execution. Suprising a Byakugan wielder is rather difficult.

Importantly, Itachi is not a member of the Hyuga Clan. The Hyuga would have their guards up.

He wouldn't be able to take them 1 on 1, considering it would be 20+ all going up against him. The Hyuga all have Byakugan which let them see all around them, even Gashir wasn't able to quitely sneak in without being unnoticed. So in an all out battle, either Hyuuga clan overwhelms Itachi instantly, or they just wear him out. A bunch of Hyugas would be able to land Jyuuken blows on Itachi. Imgaine the force of 20+ Hakke Kaiten? Kishimoto did state it was the strongest force in Konoha


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## Kazekage Gaara (Jun 22, 2009)

Hyuuga are awesome! And at least, Hyuuga aren't saying that they are strongest and have a cocky eyes like Uchiha's... They think that they are the strongest, while Hyuuga develop from time to time...


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 22, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Not all the Uchiha have Sharingan, which was suggested within Part I. And, even out of those, not every Uchiha had the three tomoe, and of those, Itachi was the only one that achieved Mangekyo, apart from Madara and Izuna. It almost works like a pyramid, whereas every single Hyuga has the Byakugan.



- A good majority had them. Mostly one would say all those that were fighers had them. As described. All the uchiha's belonging to the first division had the sharingan. They were the elite of the elite so there high probabilty they had 3 tomoe sharingan as those cops that went to ask itachi questions had 3 tomoe sharingan. 
Also there a good case to be made why majority of the uchiha may not have had sharingan may be because they are not of uchiha blood *mikoto maybe* or were not fighters.

-Also it was told that many others have acheived ms aside from madara and his brother and itachi. This can be implied by fugaku/databook discussing ms to sasuke in which he said a few uchiha's in the past unlocked ms and this was before fugaku knowing of itachi. -chpt_224 

Also  the tale itachi told of the uchiha killing brothers to make the eyes permenent and using deduced logic, it would imply that those brothers had been kkilled by their brothers had ms. -chpt_386


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## HyuugaProdigy (Jun 22, 2009)

Recca said:


> Where do people get the idea that they don't fully mature their sharingan? 3 tome sharingan seemed standard amongst the older Uchiha members.
> 
> Anyway without going into it too much. One Uchiha (Itachi) could likely annihilate the Hyuuga clan single handily.



the sharingan is only found in a small number of uchihas:

(taken from naruto databook)
*Sharingan translation:  
Kekkei Genkai: Sharingan
Users: Hatake Kakashi, Uchiha Sasuke
Support, Short, Mid, Long ranges. Rank: none.

Main text

The Kekkei Genkai withheld in the blood of Konoha's finest lineage, the Uchiha clan. This unique ability, manifested only in a mere fraction [of people] even within the clan, is characterized by comma*-shaped markings in one's pupils.*

and even then the level of strength of the users sharingan isn't equal
this page that's why a 13 year old itachi can knock down 3 fully grown uchihas. it's also why madara and his brother where considered as geniuses in the uchiha clan.
this page


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

**



dark messiah verdandi said:


> this is why using named individuals for this fight is always a bad idea. the two characters you named were weak because of their non-shinobi like behavior and aversion to fighting. so how are they going to give a good fight?
> 
> also, obito rocked hard for the last ten minutes of his life, and sacrificed it for his nakama. therefore regardless of slander, obito was win. secondly it is kind of unfair to compair a hyuuga who had REALLY tough training since she was three, to an uchiha who was brought up in the academy, AND only used the kekkei genkai for the last ten minutes of his life (which during he kicked silly amounts of ass.).
> 
> ...




battle dolls make sense for this battle as you said...
but fully mature battle dolls, who possess the powers and abilities we've to date are the types to use.... otherwise to be honest i think the chances for the uchiha are low and unfair - because as you said, the uchihas rely on intense battle situations and such to get strong.
so even as strong/skilled battle dolls with equal everything the hyuuga seem to have an advantage.
why? because i imagine if they're skilled all there stats will be equal and a 3 or higher (going by the stat guide). 

ninjutsu works in the hyuuga favor. 
why?
because if their ninjutsu skill is equal then any jutsu the uchiha tries will fail, and nay jutsu the hyuuga tries will be copied (but probably won't be QUITE as good... i mean the strength will be equal, but _how_ they use it will be different)... but even thoug hit's copied, it will NOT hit the hyuuga. it won't hit the hyuuga becuase the fact that a ninjutsu attack is coming will be telegraphed to the hyuuga via the ability to read chakra and it's flow. the attack will be seen/sensed and the hyuuga will be able to evade it - wuite easily might i add - or use kaiten to block/deflect it. so ninjutsu will be out of the question cause some will be simply evaded (meaning the uchiha WASTES chakra) and some will be blocked with kaiten (which will result in either similar chakra used or less chakra used to block it - yeah, defense tends to use less energy than offense does, unless of course a powerful defense is used for a not-so-powerful attack)

genjutsu will fail too.
why?
because we've made the genjutsu stat the same. i assume hyuuga typically have lower genjutsu stats than uchiha do (mind you, the only way to really reason for this is because they simply don't put the effort in or they naturally have a deficiency in genjutsu *usage* so they don't waste the time  but that's seems improbable to me). will equal gen stats, combined with the hyuuga's elite chakra control, the genjutsu will definitely be broken without difficulty. and again, the chakra flow will tell the hyuuga that a ninjutsu of genjutsu attack is coming before hand. mind you, after getting caught once or maybe even twice, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to learn "i can't make eye contact wit hthis enemy... but i can see in all directions to see him without looking in his eyes... so i'll make sure i don't anymore either by averting my eyes of closing them while still using the byakugan" (and yes, this does work, otherwise they hyuuga would have more than one blind spot and it those would be in the path of the eyelids.)

taijutsu would be in the hyuuga favor.
why?
because of juuken. sure the uchiha can see pre-images but lets remember that speed and strenght are equal. so though they can dodge, it's not like they're evading simply becauase they're too fast/quick to hit... speaking of quickness... quickness of attacks... with the quickness of attacks considered it becomes more difficult for the uchiha to dodge. both are skilled in taijutsu in this part but with that said, it's not like the hyuuga misses an attack and is all off balance and open to any attack. they're style is still different and the hyuuga style is still better/stronger. at some point the hyuuga wiull start to grave the uchiha and things would begin to fall apart from there. if the hyuuga can do 64 points, the uchiha doesn't have a chance - because there will be no dodgin of _that_ attack. also, if the hyuuga has kuushou, it opens up more trouble fothe uchiha because kuushou violently hits with air - not chakra, so it will still be invisible to the uchiha. one surprising hit, feasibly opens the uchiha to attacks that lead to death.

intelligence is in the hyuuga favor too.
why?
not because the hyuuga wll outsmart the uchiha... but because even with the intelligence stat in the favor of the uchiha, tricks and such won't work because the byakugan would reveal them before they're even set up - unless BS is pulled and the uchiha is allowed to set up traps outside the range of the byakugan (and mind you, this is a strong/skilled hyuuga so they range will be quite long), that somehow fly the whole way in the blindspot to hit the hyuuga lol.

hand seal... is in the uchiha favor
why?
well cause they read them as their done unless it's done incredibly fast... but idk how much this helps them in this fight anyway....

strength... is equal but this works out bad for the uchiha.
why?
because gentle fist strikes (minus the chakra) usually don't hit _that_ hard as they usually lack a degree of strength. but with equal strength at higher levels, the hits will physically carry more force too.


so in the end... the hyuuga do really come out on top. one must think of MS or EMS to put the sharingan above the byakugan, in and of themselves. i say this to make it clear that i'm not saying that "just because one has the MS of EMS, that it means they're better or stronger than a hyuuga" - as that depends on the skills of the user because as far as i can see/guess, MS only adds 2-3 possibly unique-to-the-possessor jutsus, and EMS is still quite the mysetery to me. with that said, the hyuuga clan is still the stronger clan as a whole because the cases of MS or EMS is extremely rare, and even they are not invincible.. madara is the closest thing to invincible and that's only due to the sheer amount of mystery and lack of information we currently have on him and his abilities.... because WE ALREADY KNOW HE IS NOT INVINCIBLE.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 22, 2009)

People are mistaken if they think the *whole* Uchiha Clan > the *whole* Hyuuga Clan. Why? Not every Uchiha is born with the Sharingan, however every Hyuuga is born with the Byakugan, it's as simple as that. The Uchiha with Sharingan would be out-numbered by the Hyuuga with Byakugan. And how do you defeat Sharingan, with numbers. Mangekyou Sharingan is stronger than both the Sharingan and Byakugan, but there are currently only two individuals with the doujutsu.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jun 22, 2009)

WraithX959 said:


> People are mistaken if they think the *whole* Uchiha Clan > the *whole* Hyuuga Clan. Why? Not every Uchiha is born with the Sharingan, however every Hyuuga is born with the Byakugan, it's as simple as that. The Uchiha with Sharingan would be out-numbered by the Hyuuga with Byakugan. And how do you defeat Sharingan, with numbers. Mangekyou Sharingan is stronger than both the Sharingan and Byakugan, but there are currently only two individuals with the doujutsu.



Huh?

So when themselves and Senju were in conflicted and the two were hailed as the two strongest clan at the time did they have that limitation then? 

It's thread about people who would WANT Hyuugan to be better than The Uchiha clan them actually are. All the manga evidence is suggest Uchihas were greater everything else is retarded theories and denial.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> Huh?
> 
> So when themselves and Senju were in conflicted and the two were hailed as the two strongest clan at the time did they have that limitation then?
> 
> It's thread about people who would WANT Hyuugan to be better than The Uchiha clan them actually are. All the manga evidence is suggest Uchihas were greater everything else is retarded theories and denial.



that's not true. 
it's not about what people "want"... it's about what people think/believe/feel and why (plus their ability to support those thoughts/beliefs/feelings, and doing so as logically/reasonably as possible).

the manga evidence does not point to the uchiha being stronger. most if not all of the "evidence" exists or can be as be said of the hyuuga as well. then when we look closer at the abilities and pit them against each other, the hyuuga come out on top.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jun 22, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> that's not true.
> it's not about what people "want"... it's about what people think/believe/feel and why (plus their ability to support those thoughts/beliefs/feelings, and doing so as logically/reasonably as possible).
> 
> the manga evidence does not point to the uchiha being stronger. most if not all of the "evidence" exists or can be as be said of the hyuuga as well. then when we look closer at the abilities and pit them against each other, the hyuuga come out on top.



I added denial in there as well, It can be that also


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## xxAkasunaxx (Jun 22, 2009)

Byagukan doesn't really DO anything...

xD

Uchihas, hands down.


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## Zabuza (Jun 22, 2009)

If uchiha clan was really that strong Itachi would have a lot of trouble to kill all members besides Sasuke (Cause of sympathy by then, otherwise he would have also been killed).

So as a whole Uchiha clan can't be any strong.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 22, 2009)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> Huh?
> 
> So when themselves and Senju were in conflicted and the two were hailed as the two strongest clan at the time did they have that limitation then?
> 
> It's thread about people who would WANT Hyuugan to be better than The Uchiha clan them actually are. All the manga evidence is suggest Uchihas were greater everything else is retarded theories and denial.




That has more to do with story relevance, than the actual abilities from each clan. Also, we know nothing of the whereabouts of the Hyuuga Clan during that time period. 

From an impartial perspective, this should be the advantages and weaknesses of each clan.

Uchiha excel at Ninjutsu.
Hyuuga excel at Taijutsu.
Uchiha excel at Genjutsu.

Of the three pillars of Ninjutsu, The Uchiha hold the advantage in two out of three, however the Hyuuga's Byakugan can nullify that advantage. Byakugan can see through ninjutsu, taijustu and genjutsu. Although it should be noted that in some cases seeing through a type of ninjutsu might be pointless, just because you understand it, that doesn't mean you can defend against it.

The weakness of the Sharingan is Taijutsu, as shown to us by Rock Lee Vs. Sasuke. Especially, the Hyuuga's Jyuuken fighting style which can not be copied by the Sharingan. The only problem here for the Hyuuga is that only Main Branch family members learn Kaiten: The Heavenly Spin and the Eight Trigam: Sixty-Four Palms techniques. Also, before anyone tries to imply that the Sharingan's ability to predict movement would negate the Hyuuga's Jyuuken, let me remind you that Neji was able to fight evenly with KN0 Naruto at the Chuunin Exams, while Sasuke was being blown away by him prior to receiving his third Sharingan tomoe. Both Doujutsu can predict enemy attack patterns.

The Sharingan(minus the MS & EMS) and Byakugan are virtually even in terms of ability. Sharingan can copy ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu techniques, but that's useless against KKG based techniques. Byakugan can see through ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu based attacks and has a near 360 degree range.

If the abilities of the two doujutsu are on par with each other, the battle will come down to numbers, as I stated before. There are far more Hyuuga clan members with the Byakugan then there are Uchiha clan members with Sharingan. All of the Uchiha Clan's strongest offensive techniques are limited to the MS and EMS. To our knowledge there are no Sharingan specific techniques that can work against a Hyuuuga clan member. 

Why was the whole Uchiha Clan wiped out by two individuals with MS? Because they had no way to counter the MS doujutsu and there weren't nearly enough Uchiha with the three tomoe Sharingan.


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## Attor (Jun 22, 2009)

Chuck Norris said:


> If uchiha clan was really that strong Itachi would have a lot of trouble to kill all members besides Sasuke (Cause of sympathy by then, otherwise he would have also been killed).
> 
> So as a whole Uchiha clan can't be any strong.





Chuck Norris said:


> Uchiha clan is the weakest.
> Beeing decimated by only one person?
> 
> Something is wrong with this poll results.



. Madara, the immortal Uchiha God with EMS was helping him do it all. And Itachi was using his MS, which provided a huge advantage above other clan members. AND it was an ambush situation.


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## Zabuza (Jun 22, 2009)

Attor said:


> . Madara, the immortal Uchiha God with EMS was helping him do it all. And Itachi was using his MS, which provided a huge advantage above other clan members. AND it was an ambush situation.



Well Itachi is only one guy. Not the whole clan.

If one guy makes a clan then Naruto makes the Uzumaki clan and kicks the ass out of Uchiha and Hyuuga as we've seen before, and will see very soon.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jun 22, 2009)

WraithX959 said:


> That has more to do with story relevance, than the actual abilities from each clan. Also, we nothing of the whereabouts of the Hyuuga Clan during that time period.
> 
> From an impartial perspective, this is should be the advantages and weaknesses of each clan.
> 
> ...




 I stopped reading half way through, the fact you said the sharingan weakness was taijutsu was very funny. It seems the case is because you don't know nothing about the Hyuuga clan makes them somehow stronger than the Uchiha,

The poteinal final villaina and the main chharacter's rival are both Uchihas as well you saying  it has more to do with "story relevance"  point is simple they have more "story relevance" because they were/are a lot stronger than Hyuugans. If the Hyuugan clan were stronger it would have been Senju and the Hyuugan not the Uchiha. But meh think what you want....I think the poll is right for once....


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jun 22, 2009)

Chuck Norris said:


> Well Itachi is only one guy. Not the whole clan.
> 
> If one guy makes a clan then Naruto makes the Uzumaki clan and kicks the ass out of Uchiha and Hyuuga as we've seen before, and will see very soon.



Lol It's like you're being stupid on purpose.


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## Attor (Jun 22, 2009)

Chuck Norris said:


> Well Itachi is only one guy. Not the whole clan.
> 
> If one guy makes a clan then Naruto makes the Uzumaki clan and kicks the ass out of Uchiha and Hyuuga as we've seen before, and will see very soon.



There are plenty of Uchiha worth noting other than Itachi. He does not make the clan. In fact, there are stronger Uchiha alive: Madara. And I suspect it wont be long until Sasuke joins the list as well. Especially if he gains EMS.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 22, 2009)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> I stopped reading half way through, the fact you said the sharingan weakness was taijutsu was very funny. It seems the case is because you don't know nothing about the Hyuuga clan makes them somehow stronger than the Uchiha,
> 
> The poteinal final villaina and the main chharacter's rival are both Uchihas as well you saying  it has more to do with "story relevance"  point is simple they have more "story relevance" because they were/are a lot stronger than Hyuugans. If the Hyuugan clan were stronger it would have been Senju and the Hyuugan not the Uchiha. But meh think what you want....I think the poll is right for once....



You know Bateman, you're one of the few Uchihatards I don't mind usually. At least I know where your allegiances are. However, you're still wrong on this one.

The Sharingan's weakness _IS_ taijutsu.

Link removed
Link removed

Sasuke lost to Killer Bee(with his Sharingan active, I might add), because it didn't matter if he could see through his sword style. Bee's sword style was too unpredictable.

Link removed

Sasuke was able to keep up with Bee later when he went to his eight-tailed shroud. However, that was only because Bee's movements had become more predictable. If two fighters can predict each others movements, then the one with the better visual perception will win. This was demonstrated during the Chuunin exams when Neji fought Hinata.

Also why are you counting Madara, Sasuke and Itachi in with the Uchiha Clan? They may be Uchiha Clan members, but they are special cases. The MS & EMS are KKG within a KKG. Sharingan doesn't equal MS or EMS. Itachi said it best, only someone with MS could defeat him. No one else in the Uchiha clan had MS or EMS(besides the deceased Izuna), therefore you can't count that as apart of the Uchiha Clan's abilities.


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## Attor (Jun 22, 2009)

^ There is no such thing as a Sharingan weakness.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 22, 2009)

Attor said:


> ^ There is no such thing as a Sharingan weakness.



Keep telling yourself that.


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## TheGreen1 (Jun 22, 2009)

Sigh... I'm torn on this to be honest.

Alright, here it goes.

There are two ways we can look at this. (And yes, I'm deviating from the OP's post a bit.)

_1. The strength of the Clan as a whole, in the present time._

_2. Strength of individual members._

In *Scenario 1*, the Hyuuga combined, even when most of the Uchiha were alive, were stronger as a whole clan, than the Uchiha were. I go with the Original Author's statement that while the Uchiha carried the Sharingan Bloodline, not all were able to activate it. On the other hand, I've never seen a blood born Hyuuga clan member without the Byakugan. 

Every normal Hyuuga (and by normal, I mean without any birth defects like blindness or mental retardation etc.) could use the Byakugan. Out of all the Doujutsu shown so far, it was the most basic. You were born to a Byakugan user and your eyes came out pale looking? You had the Byakugan, period. 

The Uchiha's natural eye color was black of course, but that didn't mean that all could use the Sharingan. Hell, you had to be in some sort of life or death situation for the damn thing to activate. (Well, half the time I suppose.) 

Sure, the Sharingan for a ninja and especially a ninjutsu and genjutsu user, was a helluva lot more valuable than the Hyuuga's Byakugan. However, any Hyuuga could activate and use their bloodline at any time. And due to that, the Hyuuga clan is stronger than the Uchiha clan as a whole.

It's in *Scenario 2* where things change...

Basically, it wasn't uncommon to see powerful Uchiha clan members. There were more than one incredibly powerful Sharingan user that were from the Uchiha clan.

Shisui was powerful, though he was killed by Itachi.

Itachi, who killed his best friend, was probably the Second most powerful Uchiha ever. The dude was able, with help I suppose, to kill off his ENTIRE clan in one night. That's something that no two Hyuuga could ever hope to accomplish with their own clan.

Madara, arguably the strongest Uchiha member ever known. He could control the fucking Kyuubi, not to mention he's immortal and has a from of MS which doesn't harm his eyes.

and finally, we have Sasuke. Sasuke is powerful as well. Despite not being as naturally talented as his older brother, Sasuke is still a powerful shinobi in his own right. Especially since he was at the very least, able to fight S-Ranked missing-nin on somewhat equal ground. That's far more than what I can say about any Hyuuga, even Neji who is the genius of the Hyuuga clan.

So, in Scenario 2, the Uchiha reigns supreme in that they have some of the most powerful ninja coming out of their clan.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jun 22, 2009)

Using Sasuke's fight with Lee is a bad example because Sasuke didn't have the three tomoe back then which enable him to predict movements. The reason Sasuke was caught off guard was due to the fact Bee had the same "chakra flow" as Sasuke. I don't know but in a taijutsu battle being able to predict the movement of the person you're fighting seems pretty useful. I  don't think it's a weakness...


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## WraithX959 (Jun 22, 2009)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> Using Sasuke's fight with Lee is a bad example because Sasuke didn't have the three tomoe back then which enable him to predict movements. The reason Sasuke was caught off guard was due to the fact Bee had the same "chakra flow" as Sasuke. I don't know but in a taijutsu battle being able to predict the movement of the person you're fighting seems pretty useful. I  don't think it's a weakness...



I know this already, but we're discussing the Byakugan vs. the Sharingan. The Byakugan has an even better ability to predict movement. Which is why as I stated Neji could keep up with KN0 Naruto, while Sasuke with two tomoe couldn't.

What does it take to defeat the Sharingan? A taijutsu opponent whose movements can't be predicted or copied. Don't forget that Sasuke was also unable to predict KN1 at the valley of the End. Sasuke could predict Naruto's first attack, but not the attack from Naruto's Kyuubi shroud. If a Sharingan user faced a Byakugan user, they'd be predicting each others attacks. However, the Byakugan's abilities of insight surpasses those of the Sharingan. If this is the case, the Byakugan user would have the advantage in a battle of taijutsu. Especially, when you consider the Jyuuken technique doesn't even need to fully connect to cause damage. You can be injured simply by trying to block an attack.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 22, 2009)

WraithX959 said:


> You know Bateman, you're one of the few Uchihatards I don't mind usually. At least I know where your allegiances are. However, you're still wrong on this one.
> 
> The Sharingan's weakness _IS_ taijutsu.
> 
> ...



this is insanity at its best.

The sharingan has no weakness.

What your looking at is the weakness in the user.

you might as well say the sharingan is weak to ninjutsu since sasuke couldnt read itachi handseals when he popped off that kage bunshin.

or say that its weak to genjutsu when any of them fall in genjutsu i.e kakashi, sasuke, itachi, etc etc.

Are you saying part 1 neji could take gai in taijutsu? or kakashi?

its simple fact that as you would say neji would need to train and eventually would get better and would be able too. 

The same with any uchiha who would had decided in that step, which makes the clan terrifying since they can master all three fields. Where as hyuuga only fame of proficiency, seems to be in taijutsu


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## TheGreen1 (Jun 22, 2009)

WraithX959 said:


> I know this already, but we're discussing the Byakugan vs. the Sharingan. The Byakugan has an even better ability to predict movement. Which is why as I stated Neji could keep up with KN0 Naruto, while Sasuke with two tomoe couldn't.
> 
> What does it take to defeat the Sharingan? A taijutsu opponent whose movements can't be predicted or copied. Don't forget that Sasuke was also unable to predict KN1 at the valley of the End. Sasuke could predict Naruto's first attack, but not the attack from Naruto's Kyuubi shroud. If a Sharingan user faced a Byakugan user, they'd be predicting each others attacks. However, the Byakugan's abilities of insight surpasses those of the Sharingan. If this is the case, the Byakugan user would have the advantage in a battle of taijutsu. Especially, when you consider the Jyuuken technique doesn't even need to fully connect to cause damage. You can be injured simply by trying to block an attack.



Excuse me. But I think you're quite confused. The Byakugan gives telescopic vision, as well as a form of X-Ray vision as well as the ability to see nearly 360 degrees, but the Byakugan does NOT allow one to predict attacks. The Sharingan on the other hand, actually does have prediction abilities. Though, I suppose they are somewhat mislabeled. In reality, I believe that the regular Sharingan allows the user to slow down the action that they are seeing with their eyes, while still allowing them to fight in real time. If Sasuke sees Naruto's fist coming at him, and Sasuke has a 3 tomoe Sharingan activated, then Sasuke would see it as the fist moving slower than it really is, allowing him to react to it and use an appropriate counter-measure be it dodging or a counter-attack. While the Sharingan user sees the attack moving slower than it actually is, the opponent is still moving in real time. So when Sasuke makes a counter to Naruto's "slow" attack, Sasuke's counter is actually in real-time. 

In short, the ability seems to be a way to dramatically increase reaction time as well as allowing the user to perceive attacks as moving slower than they really are. Of course, this ability only affects the mind, not the body. As Lee showed, it's possible to defeat a Sharingan user if their body is not fast enough to react to the signals the brain is giving them.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

Attor said:


> . Madara, the immortal Uchiha God with EMS was helping him do it all. And Itachi was using his MS, which provided a huge advantage above other clan members. AND it was an ambush situation.



i already told people plenty of times....
Itachi DID NOT use MS technqiues. i know people like to think he did because then it would have "made more sense" but no, it's not the case, and no, it actually wouldn't have made more sense.

-we've seen how ridiculously tired MS techniques make the user. on top of that, itachi was only 13 years old and just recently gained the MS. 
-*if itachi used tsukuyomi on just 3 people, he'd be deathly tired.* so he definitely didn't use that on the members he took out from the clan - which is expected to be quite a substaintial number. remember how he needed a rest after one usage against kakashi (after he used a bunshin, did a water technique, and made the bunshin explode)? 
-he didn't use amaterasu because NOTHING WAS BURNING... and certainly not for 7 days and nights lol... and if he would have quelled the flames that would have only tired him out more.... making it make even less sense. 
-ALSO, we saw him use tsukuyomi on sasuke, so he had chakra to spare lol.
-we already saw itachi PWN the hell out of 3 members _without using the MS_ who were members with 3 tomoe sharignan, AND they were jounin AND they were "police" lol.... so we know itachi was just on a different level than his uchiha brethren COMPLETELY... yet people think itachi can be used to gauge uchiha strength lol. that's called "itachi strength... not uchiha streangth"
-and we knwo damn well he didn't use susanoo either. i don't even see the need to explain _this one_ any further..... nor reason to justify the possibility of this way-off thought with further explanation...

that should close this case. so please just let it.


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## principito (Jun 22, 2009)

Link removed

This makes me think both clans have equal power. I thought Uchiha's individuals were overall stronger than Hyuuga's, but as a clan hyugga could take it, but after reading this, my mind changed.

The way Raikage says this drives me to think that both clans represented an equal threat to Konoha.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> Using Sasuke's fight with Lee is a bad example because Sasuke didn't have the three tomoe back then which enable him to predict movements. The reason Sasuke was caught off guard was due to the fact Bee had the same "chakra flow" as Sasuke. I don't know but in a taijutsu battle being able to predict the movement of the person you're fighting seems pretty useful. I  don't think it's a weakness...



actually... sasuke was first used his sharingan to narrowly escape death... resulting in a scratch on his face - but he was still hit. 
the next time he's hit, using "surprise" as an excuse isn't that good because it would have meant he was QUITE surprised for quite a long time. if that could surprise him so much, kaiten would surely surprise him for an even longer time lol j/k. but yeah, the dude is a ninja that peopel view to be very strong.... so a surprise that last that long is not much of an excuse when the foe is rapping while kicking your ass.... showing that he's still not even that serious yet.

the abilty to predict movement isn't perfect to the point it allows the user to dodge and evade all attacks. doesn't work like that. if it did, sasuke would have read deidara's movements so well, he would have just narrowly evaded the explosions from him bombs - he would have moved WELL before the bomb was thrown.

the reason sasuke looked uber against _naruto_ once he got the ability to predict movement is because naruto wasn't good at taijutsu to being with. his hits were powwerful but if he missed he'd ALWAYS be way off balance because he lunges and such... in short his taijutsu skill sucked. sasuke's was better than his, and the sharingan took care of the speed issue which made sasuke get beat up earlier in the fight.


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## principito (Jun 22, 2009)

Attor said:


> ^ There is no such thing as a Sharingan weakness.



Hey fellow, you know i'm on your side most of the times, but I had to call you on this one. While Sharingan might not have a "declared" weakness such as Byakugans blind spot, it sure is not perfect or flawwless.

1. If the user can detect movement but can't actually react to it, its useless.
2. MS comes at a very high cost. In a 1vs1 battle its haxxed but when fighting multiple opponents its a let down.
3. The fact that you need to kill clan members to get stronger versions of it weakens the clan overall.

There are some more, but this is just to widen your perspective, or at least to show u what I think.


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## Dark Uchiha (Jun 22, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> i already told people plenty of times....
> Itachi DID NOT use MS technqiues. i know people like to think he did because then it would have "made more sense" but no, it's not the case, and no, it actually wouldn't have made more sense.
> 
> -we've seen how ridiculously tired MS techniques make the user. on top of that, itachi was only 13 years old and just recently gained the MS.
> ...


1

2

3

Clearly the kishimoto disagrees with you.
Clearly your making *assumptions* on what your perceive to be itachi chakra level then to what it was in the uchiha fight or when he fought kakashi.


principito said:


> 2
> 
> This makes me think both clans have equal power. I thought Uchiha's individuals were overall stronger than Hyuuga's, but as a clan hyugga could take it, but after reading this, my mind changed.
> 
> The way Raikage says this drives me to think that both clans represented an equal threat to Konoha.




"The two clans feared as the strongest"
"Among the shinobi crowd, there were two clans all nations would unanimously employ. The Senju clan and the Uchiha clan. Should a country hire Senju, the opposing country would hire the Uchiha: before anyone knew, it became a recognizable pattern, as both sides were endowed with outstanding power. Undoubtedly, the latter periods of the war era had become a conflict between the two of them."

""In Konoha, we have the Uchiha" 

1 clan proficiently praised for taijutsu

another clan proficiently praised in all 3 fields of jutsu.


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## Attor (Jun 22, 2009)

principito said:


> Hey fellow, you know i'm on your side most of the times, but I had to call you on this one. While Sharingan might not have a "declared" weakness such as Byakugans blind spot, it sure is not perfect or flawwless.
> 
> 1. If the user can detect movement but can't actually react to it, its useless.
> 2. MS comes at a very high cost. In a 1vs1 battle its haxxed but when fighting multiple opponents its a let down.
> ...



I meant it had no weakness in comparison to a normal eye. Base Sharingan, of course. Some have argued 'Sharingan has a weakness as it couldn't handle Killer Bee taijutsu.' But unless a normal eye could have done better (which of course it couldn't) it doesnt constitute a valid weakness in my view. 



shadow050 said:


> i already told people plenty of times....
> Itachi DID NOT use MS technqiues. i know people like to think he did because then it would have "made more sense" but no, it's not the case, and no, it actually wouldn't have made more sense.
> 
> -we've seen how ridiculously tired MS techniques make the user. on top of that, itachi was only 13 years old and just recently gained the MS.
> ...



Right....... So Itachi activated his MS on the roof for fun?


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

Dark Uchiha said:


> this is insanity at its best.
> 
> The sharingan has no weakness.
> 
> ...



you took wraith's post out of context.... did you do it on purpose? for now i assume you didn't.

both have phantom weaknesses.
the byakugan's tiny blindspot is called a "weakness" even though almost no one could hope to take advantage of it lol.

the sharnigan's "weakness" _if anything_ is taijutsu. genjutsu is their best category. ninjutsu can be matched so long as the sharingan possessor has the chakra and/or element to use.  but taijutsu is different... because you can't copy skill. given, the skill a ninjutsu is used with can't be copied eitehr, but if they are in battle they can merely just do the same jutsu to match you if you don't have a nice set up before hand, which won't be easy to set up. 

so with that said, taijutsu is the "weakness".

sasuke missing the hand seals shows the sharingan is limited. and that if fast enough seals and sthings can be performed before the possessor can read/copy them. it happened with kaakshi too... it's a testament to how fast itachi does those damn seals. sasuke's sharingan is supposedly pretty powerful... and it missed it. so anyone else's might would probably miss it too. so that's not sasuke's fault... instead it's the sharingan's. unless sasuke can strengthen it _even more_ which he should need to.

you wereright about the taijutsu point being the user/possessor's fault, and not he sharingan's.

taijutsu is all that's needed when you can nullify genjutsu. and can evade or defelct or see though (99% of) ninjutsu (save kagebunshin.... the main jutsu the main character _just happened_ to have during the finals ).


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## Koori (Jun 22, 2009)

Hmm... if I recall correctly, Kakashi said something about a rumour that links both clans, right?


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## principito (Jun 22, 2009)

Attor said:


> I meant it had no weakness in comparison to a normal eye. Base Sharingan, of course. Some have argued 'Sharingan has a weakness as it couldn't handle Killer Bee taijutsu.' *But unless a normal eye could have done better *(which of course it couldn't) it doesnt constitute a valid weakness in my view.



There is no point in arguing about normal eye since we're comparing it against byakugan. The questions would be if Byakugan would've done better.

As I see it Byagugan has no high-tax on the user, you dont have to kill anybody to get "upgrades", etc. The thing would be if a Hyuuga can get as strong with its Byakugan as we've seen the Uchihas such as Itachi or SAsuke.  I prefer to think yes.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

Dark Uchiha said:


> 1
> 
> 2
> 
> ...



dude.... you do know you posted:
1 pic of itachi using the MS on SASUKE... which i said he did.
1 pic of itachi JUST SHOWING sasuke the MS
and 
1 pic of itachi talking about the fateful day he killed shisui to attain the MS... or maybe... you think he acquired his MS techniques that night while killig his brethen... while he didn't even appear to be pressured, and he used MS to show sasuke what happened... which shows that he already knew what he was doing and how to do it.

-_-....

like i said... ALL logic goes against him using the MS to kill his clan. you know it makes absolutely no sense when you consider what we know about the signature MS techniques we've seen itachi use.


ALSO
it doesn't matter if the uchiah are praised for 3 categories... because the hyuuga make only the category where trump in, become an issue in this fight lol. genjutsu negated (excellent chakra control, plus the ability to see throguh genjutsu as well... possibly even better than the sharingan). ninjutsu negated (abilty to see through and understand things via the baykugan, also ability to read chakra flow, and our favorite "kaiten" ).  so it comes down to taijutsu, where the uchiha faces juuken and more than likely loses.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

Attor said:


> Right....... So Itachi activated his MS on the roof for fun?



i've already said he may have used the MS.... but he didn't use the MS techniques we've come to know such as tsumuyomi, amatareasu and susanoo. or did you see somethign that made it seem like he did?

the MS is a stronger sharingan, even when it's not using it's signature technqiues. if you recall itachi even put it one to see sasuke better while talking to him.


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## αce (Jun 22, 2009)

Lol, Uchiha>Hyuuga. 

Anyone who reads the manga can comprehend this. It's been hinted that they are the strongest clan like a million times.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Lol, Uchiha>Hyuuga.
> 
> Anyone who reads the manga can comprehend this. It's been hinted that they are the strongest clan like a million times.



heh 

nice try taka, but it's also been hinted at numerous times that the hyuuga are the strongest


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## Ryuk (Jun 22, 2009)

Hyuga owns Uchiha anyday .


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## Kitsukaru (Jun 22, 2009)

Where is the Uchiha clan you speak off


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## αce (Jun 22, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> heh
> 
> nice try taka, but it's also been hinted at numerous times that the hyuuga are the strongest



Uchiha clan produces:
Madara, Sasuke, Itachi, Shisui.

Hyuuga clan produces:
Hiashi, Neji, Hanabi and Hinata.

It's over, we won.


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## αce (Jun 22, 2009)

> Where is the Uchiha clan you speak off



Madara+Sasuke>>>Hyuuga clan.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> Uchiha clan produces:
> Madara, Sasuke, Itachi, Shisui.
> 
> Hyuuga clan produces:
> ...



mwahahaha!! you're wrong...

the hyuuga clan prodcues
Hiashi, Neji, hinata, hinabi, and *hizashi (who was basically equal strength to hiashi) *

HA! we won! 

lol jokes aside... you don't know what neji will become. and the other hyuugas haven't "bugged out" which is why they haven't done things like those main two have done lol. we know next to nothing shisui lol, and sasuke... can beat 2 out of those 5 i mentioned 

and hinabi will be amazing when she grows up lol just watch lol


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## tsukyomeitachi (Jun 22, 2009)

Wow what a sexy bundle of madness we have here...

Uchiha Clan and Sharingan are stronger than Hyuuga and Byakugan

Uchiha is not weak to taijutsu, it depends on the body of the user, if your body can only move so slow, you cant depend on the eye to make you move faster. Also, as seen from the sasuke perspective, in the following link, the sharingan literally see's your next movements  Killerbee

The byakugan may see a lot more than the average eye, but that doesnt seem like an advantage against an Uchiha.


Chapter 259

Just to add as a note, I dont really thing the Hyuuga can be called the original doujutsu users, Madara was one of the two founders of Konoha, he has his sharingan all the way up to EMS, which is of course doujutsu.

Simply spelled out
Killerbee

I dont think the fact that all hyuuga have the byakugan is enough support to make their entire clan able to defeat Uchiha. For one, when portrayed in Madaras perspective, there seem to be a good deal of Uchiha who still have the sharingan (they said only the Elite Uchiha gained sharingan, but sasuke pretty much said the average uchiha is a genius) 

lots of uchihas w/ the sharingan:
Killerbee

besides, just because the byakugan is present in the user does not mean that they're good at fighting, Hinata was considered to be shit in comparison to Neji in their first fight. 

UCHIHA IS BEST, even the kids know what sup

Kids knowing whatsup
Killerbee


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## Attor (Jun 22, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> i've already said he may have used the MS.... but he didn't use the MS techniques we've come to know such as tsumuyomi, amatareasu and susanoo. or did you see somethign that made it seem like he did?
> 
> the MS is a stronger sharingan, even when it's not using it's signature technqiues. if you recall itachi even put it one to see sasuke better while talking to him.



 How do you explain the blood then? Madara said Itachi was 'crying tears of blood' and we have only see blood emerge when MS techniques are being used. There would be no blood to cry if he didn't use techniques.


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## αce (Jun 22, 2009)

shadow050 said:


> mwahahaha!! you're wrong...
> 
> the hyuuga clan prodcues
> Hiashi, Neji, hinata, hinabi, and *hizashi (who was basically equal strength to hiashi) *
> ...



But Uchiha have Mikoto

Mikoto is a jounin


And Hanabi and Neji will never be on Itachi and Madara level, never.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

Attor said:


> How do you explain the blood then? Madara said Itachi was 'crying tears of blood' and we have only see blood emerge when MS techniques are being used. There would be no blood to cry if he didn't use techniques.



no he didn't say "*crying *tears of blood" he said sinking into tears of blood. i translated the page for you all.

the word cry is NEVER said by madara.

and you've NEVER seen any blood in his eye from back then.

blood in his eye implies amaterasu.... and NOTHING WAS BURNING... remember? lol. certainly not for 7 days and nights.

ou'd think they would have mentioned the "black flames from the night the uchiha were slaughtered"  somewhere if it was true, but they don't.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

tsukyomeitachi said:


> Wow what a sexy bundle of madness we have here...
> 
> Uchiha Clan and Sharingan are stronger than Hyuuga and Byakugan
> 
> ...



sasuke also talks shit and is just as prideful and foolhardy as any uchiha we've witnessed.

he also said he was stronger than orochimaru LOL... even though orochi could have killed him while he was paralyzed, but instead tried to take his body and lost.

hinata being considered shit is because she was considered to suck from the get go, and then, neji is the most talented hyuuga ever. other hyuuga are stronger than hinata. esepcially other branch members. 

lol @ the kids statement... 

speed is one thing... taijtusu and taijtusu skill is a completely other thing. the predictions are mainly for speed compensation.


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## αce (Jun 22, 2009)

KillerBee=God.
An immature sharingan on Sasuke when he fought Rock Lee hardly counts as a representation of the clans strength.


The Hyuuga prodigy was beaten by a punch.... from Naruto.

Kick from Rock Lee>Punch from Naruto.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

Taka Sasuke said:


> KillerBee=God.
> An immature sharingan on Sasuke when he fought Rock Lee hardly counts as a representation of the clans strength.
> 
> 
> ...



EDIT
The *EXHAUSTED* Hyuuga prodigy was beaten by a *BS unguarded unbraced for* punch.... from Naruto *who has always hit pretty hard*.

Kick from Rock Lee*<*Punch from Naruto after the hyuuga kid was tired


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## Muah (Jun 22, 2009)

lol every body has such bad attitudes and plz remember it all depends on the ninja.There really is no best but since we have limited knowledge on both clans i got to say uchiha who have just wonderful ninja abilitys are the most hax. Let me finish at base i think that the capabilities of the bykugan reign over the sharigan but if u train the sharigan and get the thrid wheel then it would enhance your abilty to fight. So it all depends on the users style and ability.  

Heres an alternative if both of the ninjas only use their clans traditional way of fighting ie fireballs vs saoft fist then well.. u get an awesome fight with a lot of pwned moments. I dont know who would when then i say its a tie.


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## Shadow050 (Jun 22, 2009)

KnivesTaichou said:


> lol every body has such bad attitudes and plz remember it all depends on the ninja.There really is no best but since we have limited knowledge on both clans i got to say uchiha who have just wonderful ninja abilitys are the most hax. Let me finish at base i think that the capabilities of the bykugan reign over the sharigan but if u train the sharigan and get the thrid wheel then it would enhance your abilty to fight. So it all depends on the users style and ability.
> 
> Heres an alternative if both of the ninjas only use their clans traditional way of fighting ie fireballs vs saoft fist then well.. u get an awesome fight with a lot of pwned moments. I dont know who would when then i say its a tie.



i see you took the nice and diplomatic road...i can respec that i guess


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 22, 2009)

Any member of the Uchiha clan could solo the Hyuuga.

Except maybe that auntie shopkeeper.


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## principito (Jun 22, 2009)

PradaBrada said:


> *I'm sorry I was gone for a long time, I think the mods don't want me here, but after see this I cant remain silent anymore!*



Your bias and lack of judgement might have something to do with that dont you think?

Posting pics of Sasuke getting kicked by Lee, and not posting Sasuke being as fast as Lee after a two week training owning Gaara is just not fair, bias or whatever you call it. 

Posting pics of Sasuke getting owned by the 8-tail Jinchuuriki and not posting pict of Neji getting owned by 30%-Kisame-clone is bias again.

Sasuke's shinobi abilities have been shown all over the manga while Neji's are limited to part 1. Trying to base your argument of Hyuuga being stronger only by comparing Sasuke vs Neji is plain non-sense


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## TheGreen1 (Jun 22, 2009)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> Any member of the Uchiha clan could solo the Hyuuga.
> 
> Except maybe that auntie shopkeeper.



You think that Chuunin Exam's Sasuke could take on Neji, even if Sasuke had Chidori?

I don't.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 22, 2009)

TheGreen1 said:


> You think that Chuunin Exam's Sasuke could take on Neji, even if Sasuke had Chidori?
> 
> I don't.



Chuunin Exam Sasuke would absolutely steamroll TS Neji.


Meh, ignoring Neji's utter weakness and uselessness.


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## TheGreen1 (Jun 22, 2009)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> Chuunin Exam Sasuke would absolutely steamroll TS Neji.
> 
> 
> Meh, ignoring Neji's utter weakness and uselessness.



...

Are you shitting me?

Are you seriously fucking shitting me?

Sasuke only had Chidori and CS1, along with two tomoe. This is against the Genius of the Hyuuga clan, who had a near impenetrable defense, and repeatedly kicked the ass of an opponent who mopped the floor with Sasuke. (I'm talking about Lee here people.)

Not to mention, Sasuke can't re-open his tenkutsu. Something about lacking a demon sealed inside him or something. I dunno.


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## principito (Jun 22, 2009)

TheGreen1 said:


> ...
> 
> Are you shitting me?
> 
> ...



Link removed

See the panel with Gai speaking?

You are claiming Sharingan's weakness is Taijutsu, yet it isn't. It would be its weakness as long as the Uchiha is not fast. On top of this, Sasuke's speed has been praised for a while. It would be fair to assume that he's faster then Neji. 

I'm not saying Neji is weak, just stop this non-sense bullshit about Sharingan's weakness when clearly if any, its a shared weakness. And who wouldn't be weak towards super-high speed taijutsu? blood-line or no blood-line you're gonna get your ass handed to you if you can't even see the opponent punching your face.


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## HyuugaProdigy (Jun 22, 2009)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> Chuunin Exam Sasuke would absolutely steamroll TS Neji.
> 
> 
> Meh, ignoring Neji's utter weakness and uselessness.



chuunin exam sauske wouldn't even stand a chance against chuunin exam neji let alone TS neji. 
Link removed


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## scerpers (Jun 22, 2009)

ITT: Trolls trolling trolls trolling noobs trolling ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


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## HyuugaProdigy (Jun 22, 2009)

principito said:


> Link removed
> 
> See the panel with Gai speaking?



sasuke can't do hidden lotus, so all the above scan shows us is that sasuke isn't fast enough 2 beat neji in taijutsu- which we already knew
Link removed



principito said:


> You are claiming Sharingan's weakness is Taijutsu, yet it isn't. It would be its weakness as long as the Uchiha is not fast. On top of this, *Sasuke's speed has been praised for a while. It would be fair to assume that he's faster then Neji.*



u assumed wrong

*Hyuuga Neji*Pre-chuunin exam->Post-chuunin exam (21->25 = +4)
Ninjutsu: 2.5 -> 3.5
Taijutsu: 3.5 -> 4.5
Genjutsu: 2 -> 2
Knowledge: 2.5 -> 3
Strength: 2.5 -> 2.5
*Speed: 3 -> 4*
Stamina: 2 -> 2.5
Seal: 3 -> 3
Improvements: Ninjutsu/Taijutsu/Speed = +1, Knowledge/Stamina = +0.5.

*Uchiha Sasuke*
Pre-chuunin exam->Post-chuunin exam(18.5->22.5 = +4)
Ninjutsu: 2.5 -> 3.5
Taijutsu: 2.5 -> 2.5
Genjutsu: 1.5 -> 1.5
Knowledge: 2 -> 2.5
Strength: 2 -> 3
*Speed: 3 -> 3.5*
Stamina: 2 -> 3
Seal: 3 -> 3
Improvements: Ninjutsu/Strength/Stamina = +1, Knowledge/Speed = +0.5

neji is both faster and better at taijutsu which is why pre timeskip sauske < pretimeskip neji.



principito said:


> I'm not saying Neji is weak, just stop this non-sense bullshit about Sharingan's weakness when clearly if any, its a shared weakness. And who wouldn't be weak towards super-high speed taijutsu? blood-line or no blood-line you're gonna get your ass handed to you if you can't even see the opponent punching your face.



it's not that the sharingan is weak against taijutsu it's just that from what we've seen the best way 2 combat the sharingan is with taijutsu
Link removed
Link removed

this is why gai trains so havily on taijutsu, because he's so intent on beating his rival- sharingan kakashi.
Link removed
3

so the green1 is correct when he talks about using taijutsu 2 defeat the sharingan. this is also further confirmed by fights between a sharingan user and a taijutsu master, like killerbee vs sauske, or the begining taijutsu fight between zabuza and kakashi
Link removed
Link removed


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## principito (Jun 22, 2009)

HyuugaProdigy said:


> sasuke can't do hidden lotus, so all the above scan shows us is that sasuke isn't fast enough 2 beat neji in taijutsu- which we already knew
> Link removed



Well, that panel was showed 300 chapters away. Assuming that remains, is Asumming wrong too.



> *Hyuuga Neji*Pre-chuunin exam->Post-chuunin exam (21->25 = +4)
> Ninjutsu: 2.5 -> 3.5
> Taijutsu: 3.5 -> 4.5
> Genjutsu: 2 -> 2
> ...



We'll have to wait for next DB to confirm your theory. I'm basing my "wrong assumptions" on black-white manga pages, while you are assuming that everything the DB says will be exactly transfered into manga facts, which we both know doesn't happen at all.

Link removed

Here's a picture of post time-skip Neji getting owned by 30% Itachi's weak partner fairly easy. His speed and better taijutsu were off that day I think.


Its true what you say about using taijutsu against Sharingan and that it might work, but against byakugan you can use taijutsu, genjutsu and ninjutsu.


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## Yondaime (Jun 22, 2009)

Well, this thread has been reduced to shit.


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