# Once-And-For-All: Raikiri Is Better Than Chidori



## Mad Scientist (Nov 10, 2019)

Tags: Mad Scientist, Raikiri, Chidori, Kakashi, Sasuke, Raikiri vs Chidori, Raiton, Gamabunta, Once-And-For-All

​
*Once-And-For-All:*
_Raikiri Is Better Than Chidori_

_In this short essay, I outline why Raikiri is a better version of Chidori. They are in fact the same jutsu, fundamentally and technically, though Raikiri is stronger; this deduction is derived from arguments I propose and subtle clues. It would be best to read this from a PC or other device where you can open links efficiently, however, it would be fine to read on a hand-held. Either way, you should be signed into your account._​
*Objectives:*

Explain why Raikiri is a better version of Chidori.
Highlight distinctions between the two.
*Notes*:

If you are going to point out flaws in the arguments presented, please only discuss once you have actually read the material. It's not difficult. If you would like a list of references, I have 70+.
By the way, I'm not officially back to the NBD. You would be hard-pressed if you're hoping for me to respond to your points at this current time. For the time being, I can provide ratings and rep  As such, I still want to hear what you have to say. 

​


WorldsStrongest said:


> Chidori = Raikiri


It is inaccurate to state that they are equal and the same, when the author of the manga has went out of his way, on numerous occasions, to make distinctions between the two.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Its stated the second we see Sasuke use Chidori for the first time that Chidori and Raikiri are one in the same...Raikiri is legit just a nickname and is STATED to be the only distinction between the 2.
> 
> This is stated by Gai, *Link Removed*, stated by The Third Hokage, stated by Deidara *Link Removed*, and further implied by Kakashi when he teaches Naruto about Nature/Shape manipulation.
> 
> ...


From that first page, it is evidently true that:

Hiruzen quickly recognised Sasuke's Chidori as being Kakashi's jutsu (implying Chidori = Raikiri).
Lightning Blade (Raikiri) is a nickname of the formal jutsu named Chidori (implying Raikiri = Chidori).
One would, therefore, naturally assume that Chidori _is_ Raikiri and that Raikiri _is_ Chidori. And this is completely true... except for one little thing...

...Whilst they _are_ fundamentally and technically the same jutsu (as noted and/or implied by Gai,  and , Hiruzen, *Link Removed*, and ...) there are some very subtle, real differences between them, which results in "Kakashi's Chidori" being a more potent technique in his hands --> Raikiri.
[/SPOILER="Chapter 114: Gai and Hiruzen's statement"]
*Link Removed*​[/SPOILER]


WorldsStrongest said:


> Raikiri is legit just a nickname and is STATED to be the only distinction between the 2.


Careful with your wording. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but just in case you still don't get it... No one in the manga has ever stated that the _only_ difference between Raikiri and Chidori is their nickname. To say so would be factually incorrect because it was _*never*_ stated that the _only _difference between them is their nickname.



WorldsStrongest said:


> They are the same Jutsu
> 
> The ONLY "conflicting" evidence to this is the DB saying Raikiri is "S-Ranked"...Which tells you right there that the idea that they are separate jutsu is bullshit because the only evidence backing that theory is secondary canon.


They are not separate jutsu, but Raikiri is a more refined version of Chidori. It possesses higher quality. That only makes sense, after all...

Kakashi had learned Chidori by the time he was 9-10 years old and, for decades, honed _his use_ of the technique (, common sense), such that it  became *Link Removed*. Compare that to Sasuke who learned Chidori at 13 during the Chūnin Exams; he was 16 for most of Part II and 17 by the end of Shippuden. Naturally, Kakashi would have improved in chakra output, chakra control, physical finesse and dexterity, and through raw physical experience.
*Chakra output*. For Chidori, it is stated that it brings forth "a great amount of chakra and concentrated into one ". For Raikiri, it is "a huge amount of chakra that is a wonder even to the eyes of the !! It predicts a hopeless future." The difference in portrayal could not be clearer. Evidently, the range of action and power level are variable .
*Chakra control*. Obviously. This leads to finer concentration of the jutsu and heightened piercing potential.
*Physical finesse and dexterity of the actual technique*. Comes with the years of experience.

*Physical experience overall*. Obviously. This leads to stronger synchronisation of the jutsu with the body and mind.


*Spoiler*: _Chapter 314: Kakashi explaining Chidori_ 




​




As opposed to Kakashi, Sasuke instead diversified his Chidori into different types of attacks such as Chidori Stream, Chidori Spear, Chidori Senbon etc. Whereas Sasuke diversified the technique (divergence), Kakashi used the same jutsu to the extent it became famous, largely increasing his skill in using the formal jutsu (convergence).
Here're more differences:
For Chidori, it is "That chirping penetrates even the most tenacious ," but for Raikiri, it is "this huge amount of chakra (note re-emphasis on huge chakra) is gathered in the hand, Kakashi's arm becomes a famous blade that can cut through ."
For Chidori, it is "Furthermore, by running a long distance, this turns into a high-speed stab of destructive !!" but for Raikiri it is "In one swing, this swift stab turns into a famous blade that can even cut lightning!!"


*Spoiler*: _Databook: Chidori, Raikiri_ 




​





WorldsStrongest said:


> Also...In CANON, *Link Removed* *Link Removed*...Implying he doesnt have one  Implying Raikiris rank in the DBs is BS...


He never said nor implied that "the idea of an _S-ranked jutsu_ is potentially unobtainable to _him_." He simply stated that "the jutsu which [Naruto] is aiming for is an S-ranked level of difficulty... or possibly beyond. It might even be unachievable..."



WorldsStrongest said:


> Id love to see the evidence to the fucking contrary tho
> 
> Fun fact there isnt any


Actually, it does not state that "the two jutsu are the exact same." Instead, it reads 'When Kakashi uses [Chidori], "Chidori" is known as "Raikiri".' Which is true. Kakashi's "Chidori" is in fact called "Raikiri" as is implied and/or noted numerous times. While they are the same _jutsu_, fundamentally and technically, Kakashi's skill in using it is better, naturally (and obviously). If you still don't understand this concept, let me explain with an example:

The Temporary Paralysis Technique (a D-rank jutsu) states: "This is a basic ninjutsu usable even by genin classes, but *its intensity will vary greatly according to the caster’s .*" Easily, you can see how in the hands of someone powerful such as Orochimaru (who has a 5 for ninjutsu), the technique can quickly become a higher rank _for him_. The reason Orochimaru doesn't have a dedicated rank profile for the technique is because Kishimoto wanted Kakashi to have Raikiri and specifically aimed to differentiate between them in many instances and in subtler ways, whereas he felt no need nor drive to do the same for this less cooler technique; it is partly why Kakashi's Raikiri is specifically named "Lightning Blade" and this is its primal name for when he uses it. @Hasan put it best.

*Spoiler*: _Databook: Temporary Paralysis Technique_ 




​





WorldsStrongest said:


> Raikiri = Chidori
> 
> We are explicitly told this several times
> 
> ...





Siskebabas said:


> There is literally No reason for sasuke to use weaker version of jutsu for whole, sasuke Even had way better mastery of raiton, its baseless that he for some reason uses weaker version of same jutsu
> 
> 
> Hasan said:
> ...



*Two more (minor) differences*
Variations in Appearance
If you compare Kakashi's Raikiri usage, for the most part, it appears to be larger than Sasuke's. Here are numerous examples from teen Sasuke. For the purposes of this illustration, we will not examine Sasuke while in the Cursed Seal (CS) state as his Chidori actually changes slightly during it (discussed soon), and since, for the most part, he doesn't use CS; more importantly, it wouldn't be a true comparison to what we're evaluating. Feel free to check it out in your own time though (e.g. vs Deidara, Itachi, Naruto P1).

Finally, it should be noted that the size of Chidori and Raikiri can vary, and does vary, depending on the volume of chakra put into the technique. This is very trivial though; I'm sure everyone knows this since it's common sense - one can make a jutsu bigger by putting more chakra into it. For an example of Chidori, compare *Link Removed* to *Link Removed*. The case _I'm_ putting forward is that, given the above constraints of our sample space, _most_ of Kakashi's Raikiri I've found to be subtly more different than Sasuke's Chidori, and overall slightly more striking.

In short, we will disregard outliers and be looking at many normal/typical examples. (In the following images, none of the original dimensions have been altered.)

*Spoiler*: _Variations in Appearance_ 




​



From this, if you are looking really closely, you can tell that Raikiri:

Is generally drawn bigger.
Generally has more sparks/electricity.
More often than Chidori tends to have electricity streaming upwards.
Even if you disagree that Raikiri is generally drawn larger than Chidori, consider:

The points mentioned above this 'minor differences' section.
You might take this with a grain of salt... but in my estimation, a good number of the Chidoris in the "close-up" panels appear smaller than the "further-away" Raikiris. Additionally, the further-away Chidoris look smaller than a good number of the further-away Raikiris, though the distinction is perhaps more difficult to tell due to subjectivity.
Variations in Sound Effect
From all the evidence available, it is observable that, most of Sasuke's Chidori makes the _Chirp Chirp_ SFX, whereas next to all of adult Kakashi's Raikiri makes _Zap/Bzz/Bzk/Bzp/Krackle_ (etc.) SFX. This age distinction is important because next to all of _young_ Kakashi's Chidori have _Chirp Chirp_ SFX. This suggests a very subtle evolution of the jutsu unique only to adult Kakashi in Naruto. It _is_ shown that Sasuke _does_ sometimes emit the Bzk (etc.) sound effects, _however_, a lot of this is _while_ *Link Removed* is in _*Link Removed*_ or during *Link Removed* into a variant *Link Removed*, or if his jutsu is clashing with something else. Generally speaking, Chidori for early adopters (e.g. Sasuke, kid Kakashi), let's say, has reserved for it the _Chirp Chirp_ SFX, whereas Kakashi's matured Raikiri has reserved for it electrifying sounds, explainable by points discussed above. Finally, I should note that perhaps an *Link Removed* in intensity may *Link Removed* the *Link Removed* from _Chirp_ to _*Link Removed*_ SFX, though the latter sound may also be seen when the *Link Removed* is *Link Removed*.

*Spoiler*: _Variations in Sound Effect_ 




​



Thanks for tuning in 

Please discuss.

Tagging:
@Blu-ray @MaruUchiha @Ayala @Hasan @LostSelf @Crimson Flam3s @Sufex @Ryuzaki @KisaitaParadise @ZmkSc @MShadows @Reddan @Naemlis Orez @ShinAkuma @charm @Zembie @Artistwannabe @t0xeus @Hi no Ishi @SakuraLover16 @~Kakashi~ @trocollo @Maverick04 @J★J♥ @Draco Bolton @Orochimaru op @riousrain @Shark @Matto @MarF @Siskebabas @Edogawa @Turrin @WorldsStrongest @Grinningfox @Santoryu @wooly Eullerex @Sage light

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 10, 2019)

@jesusus @Hina uzumaki @Hussain @BlackHeartedImp @Obito16 @oiety @Djomla @Anikee @Skilatry @Orochimaruwantsyourbody @Kamalu @blk get in here too

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisaitaparadise (Nov 10, 2019)

You are really a man of science. Even I can't right a college essay on this. Mad respect, Scientist. I'll m**der anybody that disagrees with you

Reactions: Like 2


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## Reddan (Nov 10, 2019)

I think you are generally right.

Though, I am sure Adult Sasuke is using what he calls chidori to the same if not a greater level than Kakasi's raikiri.

Reactions: Like 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 10, 2019)

They are the same Jutsu

We are told they are the same Jutsu frim the moment of their introduction 

Kakashi states they are the same Jutsu

Wankers like you are the only fucking reason we have to have this asininely basic conversation 

You can pad it with all the sad word vomit you want, doesnt change a damn thing 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Chidori = Raikiri
> 
> Its damn near 2020 now so itd be great if people could finally graduate to 20/20 vision when reading information on this subject
> 
> ...


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## BlackHeartedImp (Nov 10, 2019)

You tagged me and expected me to read all of that? You truly are a mad scientist. 

Anyhow, they're the exact same technique. The only difference is the proficiency with which one wields the technique. Kakashi's chidori> Sasuke's until part II. Kakashi implied that there are different  to the chidori, and since he is the creator of the technique, he has obviously made use of and seen these different levels. 

I think this thread is all a big misunderstanding about semantics, anyhow. Saying the chidori IS raikiri isn't wrong.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 10, 2019)

KisaitaParadise said:


> You are really a man of science. Even I can't right a college essay on this. Mad respect, Scientist. I'll m**der anybody that disagrees with you


Bring it

Youre also gonna have to ax a millionaire cuz Kishi disagrees too


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## Kisaitaparadise (Nov 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Bring it
> 
> Youre also gonna have to ax a millionaire cuz Kishi disagrees too


you seem pretty optimistic, brother


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 10, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> You tagged me and expected me to read all of that? You truly are a mad scientist.
> 
> Anyhow, they're the exact same technique. The only difference is the proficiency with which one wields the technique. Kakashi's chidori> Sasuke's until part II. Kakashi implied that there are different  to the chidori, and since he is the creator of the technique, he has obviously made use of and seen these different levels.
> 
> I think this thread is all a big misunderstanding about semantics, anyhow. Saying the chidori IS raikiri isn't wrong.


Wait, why are you commenting on the topic if you haven't read what my arguments were? And where is your basis for the supposition that the Raikiri of Kakashi (who's had Chidori for _much, much_ longer than Sasuke has) is not > Sasuke's Chidori when we get to Part II? I agree with you that "saying the chidori IS raikiri isn't wrong."


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## Siskebabas (Nov 10, 2019)

I'll say it again, its completely baseless that Sasuke who is atleast two tiers above kakashi in raiton mastery uses somehow less refined chidori then kakashi. Doesnt help either that he has better piercing feats then kakashi

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 10, 2019)

KisaitaParadise said:


> you seem pretty optimistic, brother


No not optimistic 

Just informed 

Cuz I read the manga unlike a few folk in here apparently


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## Kisaitaparadise (Nov 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No not optimistic
> 
> Just informed
> 
> Cuz I read the manga unlike a few folk in here apparently


Do you want beef? Cause I keep a spatula on me at all times


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 10, 2019)

KisaitaParadise said:


> Do you want beef? Cause I keep a spatula on me at all times


Beef?

Honey, youre the one who proposed death to people who dont buy Mads bullshit


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## Siskebabas (Nov 10, 2019)

And there is panel if want argue sizes of chidoris, this feats puts sasuke above everything kakashi shown


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## Kisaitaparadise (Nov 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Beef?
> 
> Honey, youre the one who proposed death to people who dont buy Mads bullshit


If you have beef with Maddie, you got beef with me.


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## Grinningfox (Nov 10, 2019)

In summation ,are you asserting that the only difference is skill and power of the user??


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 10, 2019)

The only argument one can make about Chidori being greater than Raikiri or Chidori being greater than Raikiri is INDIVIDUAL ABILITY

THAT IS IT

THAT IS THE ONLY METRIC IN WHICH THE TECHNIQUES CAN DIFFER

WANNA KNOW WHY?

CUZ OUTSIDE IF THAT FACTOR, THEY ARE THE SAME TECHNIQUE

And, taking personal skill into account, Chidori (Sasuke) blows Raikiri (Kakashi) out of the water

Literally every waking moment of the series post timeskip

TLDR, you cant argue Raikiri > Chidori

Cannot be done


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 10, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> In summation ,are you asserting that the only difference is skill and power of the user??


Thanks for the good question. There appear to me to be more differences than just skill/power, but if you want a short answer, it is indeed mainly skill and power (though even this is subtle). For example, Orochimaru's Paralysis technique would not be D-rank in terms of its potency - the intensity is variable (stated in the DB), as suggested by the DB because the caster would be (in this case Orochimaru) of a high level. If a genin used it, one would expect it to be of D-rank potency. I would think that Adult Sasuke's Chidori is at least on par with WA Kakashi's, if not greater, considering all his power-ups and his experience of using it. I've also outlined information on why I believe Raikiri is a subtle evolution from Chidori.



WorldsStrongest said:


> The only argument one can make about Chidori being greater than Raikiri or Chidori being greater than Raikiri is INDIVIDUAL ABILITY
> 
> THAT IS IT
> 
> ...


That's not how it works. Read. Then post. I've mentioned more than once that they are fundamentally the same technique, though there exists subtle differences. There is a reason Kishimoto consistently distinguished them, to the extent he even made one S-rank early on. I go with the facts, evidence and logic. Provide evidence and reasoning instead of filling up the first page with useless information.


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## Grinningfox (Nov 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Thanks for the good question. There are appear to me to be more differences than just skill/power, but if you want a short answer, it is indeed mainly skill and power (though even this is subtle). For example, Orochimaru's Paralysis technique would not be D-rank in terms of its potency - the intensity is variable (stated in the DB), as suggested by the DB because the caster would be (in this case Orochimaru) of a high level. If a genin used it, one would expect it to be of D-rank potency. I would think that Adult Sasuke's Chidori is at least on par with WA Kakashi's, considering all his power-ups and his experience of using it.
> 
> 
> That's not how it works. Read. Then post. I've mentioned more than once that they are fundamentally the same technique, though there exists subtle differences. There is a reason Kishimoto consistently distinguished them, to the extent he even made one S-rank early on. I go with the facts, evidence and logic. Provide evidence and reasoning instead of filling up the first page with useless information.



Id need you to substantiate Kakashi having a Chidori/Raikiri  on par with Adult Sasuke . Especially since Sasuke’s Chidori feats blow him out of the water( blowing up a meteor for example.)

MS/EMS Sasuke honestly matches him in feats


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 10, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Id need you to substantiate Kakashi having a Chidori/Raikiri on par with Adult Sasuke


@Mad Scientist said fucking what?


Grinningfox said:


> MS/EMS Sasuke honestly matches him in feats


Try basically any version of post timeskip

MS exceeds him

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## BlackHeartedImp (Nov 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Wait, why are you commenting on the topic if you haven't read what my arguments were? And where is your basis for the supposition that the Raikiri of Kakashi (who's had Chidori for _much, much_ longer than Sasuke has) is not > Sasuke's Chidori when we get to Part II? I agree with you that "saying the chidori IS raikiri isn't wrong."


You still have that habit of taking everything I say seriously, I see. Of course I read your post, dude, lmao. Lighten up.

When I say part II, I mean the whole of it.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 10, 2019)

Its
Fucking
Nickname
Its
Same
Fucking
Technique
Different
Fucking
Name
Its been two decades and some people still cant read with their eyes instead of assholes.


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## MaruUchiha (Nov 10, 2019)

One is an A rank jutsu while the other is an S rank, there's really no discussion to be made

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## blk (Nov 10, 2019)

There could be a difference in the way Kishi portrayed them, but if there is any it is marginal at best tbh. 

The evidence presented isn't _that _strong, so i don't anything more than a small, almost inconsequential, difference can be justified.

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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 10, 2019)

Chidori, Raikiri and Hell Stab are the same jutsu with minor differences that don't change much outside of strength which is variable for all of them anyway.
Thinking Part one Kakashi's Raikiri would be stronger than MS Sasuke's Chidori would be silly even from looking at the size of them. If one factors in better chakra than CS2 being dumped into that huge ass Chidori as well the gulf widens. 

The rest is just skill of the user and that doesn't make something into a different jutsu really.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 10, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Id need you to substantiate Kakashi having a Chidori/Raikiri  on par with Adult Sasuke . Especially since Sasuke’s Chidori feats blow him out of the water( blowing up a meteor for example.)
> 
> MS/EMS Sasuke honestly matches him in feats


I don't have an issue with Adult Sasuke's standard Chidori being subtly > WA Kakashi's standard Raikiri, just as how WA Kakashi's Raikiri is subtly > MS Sasuke's Chidori (in my view)...

...but we know that rocks easily break to Chidori even if they're super strong (stated in DB for Chidori). A meteor is a strong version of a rock, and so essentially a huge rock (which would be inherently weak to Chidori) was busted by Adult Sasuke, who may or may not also have increased the energy in his Chidori (like how he did against A4), not to mention Adult Sasuke being super strong already works in his favour. His standard Chidori may be > WA Kakashi's, even if only by small margins (according to the four metrics I've outlined in the OP), but as I indicated in this thread, there isn't _that_ much difference between Kakashi's standard Raikiri and, let's say, FKS Sasuke's standard Chidori. The difference is subtle, yet enough to make one S-rank and the other not. I'm not really seeing how Adult Sasuke's Chidori would be much more potent than WA Kakashi's standard Raikiri - if that is what you believe - unless Adult Sasuke's Chidori is S-Rank+... because A) WA Kakashi's honed his Raikiri for a long time and B) They're both the same jutsu, but they've only ever had subtle differences - WA Kakashi is super strong himself (in the past, we had people that actually rated him fairly.) Finally, let me pose this question for thought... If Adult Sasuke's Chidori is S-Rank+, then what would that make, say, an Amaterasu-infused Chidori? You can see that the scaling may get out of hand if we're only using subtle differences.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Chidori, Raikiri and Hell Stab are the same jutsu with minor differences that don't change much outside of strength which is variable for all of them anyway.
> Thinking Part one Kakashi's Raikiri would be stronger than MS Sasuke's Chidori would be silly even from looking at the size of them. If one factors in better chakra than CS2 being dumped into that huge ass Chidori as well the gulf widens.


Certain CS2 Chidori feats have intense energy, but not all. Anyway, I'm not really discussing CS2 Sasuke's Chidori. I only referenced it because it had something interesting regarding the SFX. I don't think it would be silly to reason that Kakashi's Raikiri in P1 (which was pretty big actually), a technique he's had for years that he's honed to the extent it became famous, would be greater by a small margin than MS Sasuke, who by comparison only had Chidori for like 3 years in P2 (by the end of Shippuden, 4 years).



Hi no Ishi said:


> The rest is just skill of the user and that doesn't make something into a different jutsu really.


Sure. Just note that I don't think anyone (in this thread anyway) claimed that they're different jutsu.

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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 10, 2019)

they are the *exact* same jutsu, lightning cutter & 1,000 birds.

There is no difference - saying it is used by two different people or has two names changes nothing.

this will always be the most ridiculous discussion & only exists/resurfaces from time to time bcuz people think the databook has merit and/or purpose.


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## jesusus (Nov 10, 2019)

Raikiri is stronger. It has a cooler name too.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 10, 2019)

wooly Eullerex said:


> they are the *exact* same jutsu, lightning cutter & 1,000 birds.


They're the same jutsu, but they differ in potency. Why have you not addressed any of my arguments or provided any useful insight?



wooly Eullerex said:


> There is no difference - saying it is used by two different people or has two names changes nothing.
> 
> this will always be the most ridiculous discussion & only exists/resurfaces from time to time bcuz people think the databook has merit and/or purpose.


I see you've edited your post. Alright let me respond please... I've identified other differences though, not just the name or whom its used by. The Databook does have merit and/or purpose, as long as you can extract meaningful information from it. It may not be entirely accurate (due to missing details or otherwise), but most of it, by putting aside the hyperbole only for portrayal, we can say is pretty useful, especially if it largely aligns with the manga. For example, the Databook entries can be useful as a short summary or a technique or a reminder of who the jutsu is listed for. It should be taken with a grain of salt, of course, but everyone knows that. And yes, you may well be correct that _only_ using the DB for one's argument might provide a shortcoming, but people rarely do that - probably only when it _is_ the only thing that can provide insight.


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> *They're the same jutsu, but they differ in potency.* Why have you not addressed any of my arguments or provided any useful insight?


u just contradicted urself

no they don't differ in potency, there is no distinction between.

i didnt read  ur arguments becuz i already know what the manga entails


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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 10, 2019)

I agree for the most part, however EMS Sasuke and beyond should have the Chidori potency as Raikiri.

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 10, 2019)

wooly Eullerex said:


> u just contradicted urself
> 
> no they don't differ in potency, there is no distinction between.
> 
> i didnt read  ur arguments becuz i already know what the manga entails


It's not a contradiction. Orochimaru can use Paralysis tech, but genin can do it as well. It's explicitly made clear that the intensity varies according to the caster's level. Same jutsu, different potency.

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## Blu-ray (Nov 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> By the way, I'm not officially back to the NBD.


You're not back? By the look of things you never even left.


Mad Scientist said:


> It is inaccurate to state that they are equal and the same, when the author of the manga has went out of his way, on numerous occasions, to make distinctions between the two.


This same author is the one who wrote that Raikiri was just an alternative name for the same technique in the first place, so chances are it's our own perception of his intent that's flawed, rather than him actually making distinctions.



Mad Scientist said:


> Careful with your wording. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but just in case you still don't get it... No one in the manga has ever stated that the _only_ difference between Raikiri and Chidori is their nickname. To say so would be factually incorrect because it was _*never*_ stated that the _only _difference between them is their nickname.


His wording might be technically off and thus wrong, but that doesn't really negate the overall point. People don't go around stating negatives. You're supposed to think what you see is what you get unless indicated otherwise. No one said the Rasengan_ doesn't_ has an alternative nickname for instance, but that doesn't mean we go around assuming that it _might _have one. That's just basic logic, especially given that this is a work of fiction. If we were meant to believe something, the author would at the very least hint at it.



Mad Scientist said:


> They are not separate jutsu, but Raikiri is a more refined version of Chidori. It possesses higher quality. That only makes sense, after all...
> 
> Kakashi had learned Chidori by the time he was 9-10 years old and, for decades, honed _his use_ of the technique (, common sense), such that it  became *Link Removed*. Compare that to Sasuke who learned Chidori at 13 during the Chūnin Exams; he was 16 for most of Part II and 17 by the end of Shippuden. Naturally, Kakashi would have improved in chakra output, chakra control, physical finesse and dexterity, and through raw physical experience.
> *Chakra output*. For Chidori, it is stated that it brings forth "a great amount of chakra and concentrated into one ". For Raikiri, it is "a huge amount of chakra that is a wonder even to the eyes of the !! It predicts a hopeless future." The difference in portrayal could not be clearer. Evidently, the range of action and power level are variable .
> ...


You're comparing the users of the techniques, not the techniques themselves, and your not even comparing them in a way that would imply which is better than which. Kakashi had the technique longer and had more renown, but neither of those things necessarily implies that he is _better. _



Mad Scientist said:


> As opposed to Kakashi, Sasuke instead diversified his Chidori into different types of attacks such as Chidori Stream, Chidori Spear, Chidori Senbon etc. Whereas Sasuke diversified the technique (divergence), Kakashi used the same jutsu to the extent it became famous, largely increasing his skill in using the formal jutsu (convergence).


Saying _"as opposed to Kakashi"_ would imply that Kakashi did something equivalent in the opposite direction when he did not. Sasuke having a bunch of variants speaks only for his skill when it comes to applying shape manipulation and his overall mastering of Chidori and Raiton, and cannot be compared to something abstract like renown, when that comes from becoming famous over years of use, not necessarily being more skilled. Besides, it's not like Kakashi doesn't have variants like Raiden and other Raiton like his Lightning Hound.


Mad Scientist said:


> Actually, it does not state that "the two jutsu are the exact same." Instead, it reads 'When Kakashi uses [Chidori], "Chidori" is known as "Raikiri".' Which is true. Kakashi's "Chidori" is in fact called "Raikiri" as is implied and/or noted numerous times.


That's like saying _"it does not state the glass is half empty, but that it's half full." _It's different wording that conveys the same exact meaning. As the saying goes, _"A rose by any other name is just as sweet/still a rose, yadda yadda yadda." _Saying that something is also known by something else inherently means they're the same thing. People who have nicknames aren't suddenly different people judging by which name you choose to call them. Same logic applies here.



> While they are the same _jutsu_, fundamentally and technically, Kakashi's skill in using it is better, naturally (and obviously). If you still don't understand this concept, let me explain with an example:
> 
> The Temporary Paralysis Technique (a D-rank jutsu) states: "This is a basic ninjutsu usable even by genin classes, but *its intensity will vary greatly according to the caster’s .*" Easily, you can see how in the hands of someone powerful such as Orochimaru (who has a 5 for ninjutsu), the technique can quickly become a higher rank _for him_. The reason Orochimaru doesn't have a dedicated rank profile for the technique is because Kishimoto wanted Kakashi to have Raikiri and specifically aimed to differentiate between them in many instances and in subtler ways, whereas he felt no need nor drive to do the same for this less cooler technique; it is partly why Kakashi's Raikiri is specifically named "Lightning Blade" and this is its primal name for when he uses it. @Hasan put it best.


At this point you're not even arguing about the techniques themselves being different, but the users themselves, and their prowess. Even then though, you'd still be wrong. Or at the very least, you have nothing to actually back up your claim that Kakashi's is more refined or anything of the sort.

You cited him knowing the technique for years and him being more famous with it, but as I said before, this doesn't indicate which of the two is actually better. Jiraiya had Sage Mode for years before Naruto did and was renowned for it, yet Naruto's Sage Mode was flat out better. Kakashi's Raikiri has no actual feat of being superior to Sasuke's, nor any indication of the sort.



Mad Scientist said:


> *Two more (minor) differences*
> Variations in Appearance
> If you compare Kakashi's Raikiri usage, for the most part, it appears to be larger than Sasuke's. Here are numerous examples from teen Sasuke. For the purposes of this illustration, we will not examine Sasuke while in the Cursed Seal (CS) state as his Chidori actually changes slightly during it (discussed soon), and since, for the most part, he doesn't use CS; more importantly, it wouldn't be a true comparison to what we're evaluating. Feel free to check it out in your own time though (e.g. vs Deidara, Itachi, Naruto P1).
> 
> ...


Why even post this something this nitpicky, especially when you yourself debunk it by pointing out the size and sound effects can vary?

As for Kakashi's being more striking or whatever, it's in your head. If there was more definition like A3's nukite I'd understand, but they all like an amorphous discharge of electricity surrounding the hand.

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## Grinningfox (Nov 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I don't have an issue with Adult Sasuke's standard Chidori being subtly > WA Kakashi's standard Raikiri, just as how WA Kakashi's Raikiri is subtly > MS Sasuke's Chidori (in my view)...
> 
> ...but we know that rocks easily break to Chidori even if they're super strong (stated in DB for Chidori). A meteor is a strong version of a rock, and so essentially a huge rock (which would be inherently weak to Chidori) was busted by Adult Sasuke, who may or may not also have increased the energy in his Chidori (like how he did against A4), not to mention Adult Sasuke being super strong already works in his favour. His standard Chidori may be > WA Kakashi's, even if only by small margins (according to the four metrics I've outlined in the OP), but as I indicated in this thread, there isn't _that_ much difference between Kakashi's standard Raikiri and, let's say, FKS Sasuke's standard Chidori. The difference is subtle, yet enough to make one S-rank and the other not. I'm not really seeing how Adult Sasuke's Chidori would be much more potent than WA Kakashi's standard Raikiri - if that is what you believe - unless Adult Sasuke's Chidori is S-Rank+... because A) WA Kakashi's honed his Raikiri for a long time and B) They're both the same jutsu, but they've only ever had subtle differences - WA Kakashi is super strong himself (in the past, we had people that actually rated him fairly.) Finally, let me pose this question for thought... If Adult Sasuke's Chidori is S-Rank+, then what would that make, say, an Amaterasu-infused Chidori? You can see that the scaling may get out of hand if we're only using subtle differences.
> 
> ...




Man what Sasuke did goes beyond just elemental superiority , it’s a feat Kakashi couldn’t dream of replicating as indicated by his war arc feats. As you’ve lain out in op the USER is what’s going to make the most difference and Sasuke’s chakra is Six Paths enhanced . Just not seeing Kakashi replicating this

Also why are we thinking that Kakashi kept trying to refine Raikiri ? He’s out of shape in PT1 and  rusty so obviously he’s not increasing his jutsu.

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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Certain CS2 Chidori feats have intense energy, but not all. Anyway, I'm not really discussing CS2 Sasuke's Chidori. I only referenced it because it had something interesting regarding the SFX. I don't think it would be silly to reason that Kakashi's Raikiri in P1 (which was pretty big actually), a technique he's had for years that he's honed to the extent it became famous, would be greater by a small margin than MS Sasuke, who by comparison only had Chidori for like 3 years in P2 (by the end of Shippuden, 4 years).


You're missing what I said. 

MS Sasuke has better chakra than CS2 Sasuke. So his jutsu are more potent. And it's even larger vs the Raikage.
It make no sense to think Kakashi's Raikiri would be stronger especially in part 1.

And the amount of time someone has a jutsu means Jack nothing in this manga. 16 year old Naruto is better with Rasengan than Kakashi will ever be and flat out tells us Naruto is better at Ninjutsu. The author clearly does not care about how long someone just had a jutsu.


Mad Scientist said:


> Sure. Just note that I don't think anyone (in this thread anyway) claimed that they're different jutsu.


It's that the premise is incorrect is my issue.

Raikiri isnt a better jutsu than itself. Raikiri is Chidori. 
Like most jutsu it just depends on the power and skill of the user.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 10, 2019)

Only difference is the ranking.

Shouldn’t matter though,

A-Rank:
*
Rasen Chō Tarengan (Many Rasengan)

Ōdama Rasen Tairengan (Many Big Ball Rasengan)

Senpō: Chōōdama Rasen (Many SM Ultra Big Ball Rasengan)*

*Tarengan **Rendan (1,000 punches, 1,000 kicks)

Sabaku Sōtaisō Fūin (Desert Sealing Pyramid)

Hirudora

GFK (Thousands of Cloning Enlarging Explosive Tags) 

Kami no Shisha no Jutsu (600 billion paper explosives)

Hachimon Tonkō no Jin (Death Gate)

Hiraishin — Ni no Dan (FTG 2nd Step) 

Naruto Ittai Rendan (RSM Naruto Many Clone Taijutsu Combo) 

Kongō Fūsa (Kushina Sealing Chains) 


Shisekiyōjin (4 Red Yang Barrier)

Sekizō (Evening Elephant)

It would not be overreaching to imply these A-rank techniques are literally superior to most of the S-rank bracket. *

*B rank: *

*Shinku Renpa (Danzo Susano Cutting Futon)*
*Shinranshin (Yamanaka Body Control [not to be confused with mind switch, this one is straight up god level broken]) *
*Daikodan *
*Nukite*
*Domu*
*Mujin Meisai (Bewildering Cover)*
*Kajūgan no Jutsu (Heavy Weight)*
*Raiton Chakura Mōdo *

*These jutsu alone are all more powerful than Raikiri. There are C-rank techniques that are superior:*



*

Heavenly Foot of Pain (CES)

Kawazu Kumite (Frog Kata)
*
*There are others more powerful, I just don’t feel like looking them all up. So the rank = power thing isn’t very legitimate. *

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## Architect (Nov 10, 2019)

Raikiri is an S rank technique, that is also "honed to its limits" and is "an artisan's technique" as per databook that Kakashi spent up to 14 years to perfect. So, Raikir is like a metamagic'ed Chidori. Whether Sasuke also perfected it in 3 years is questionable.

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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> It is inaccurate to state that they are equal and the same


No

No it isnt

Kishimoto from the second they 2 were introduced in the manga straight up says, VERBATIM

"Chidori, ALSO KNOWN AS RAIKIRI"

They are introduced as one on the same

Do you not know what "also known as" means?

It means the 2 techniques are synonymous

Ive also gotten a concession out of you on this topic in the past

So Im real fucking curious why youd make a thread arguing against that concession

Seems to me like youre just trying to appeal to popularity to cover your own ass and wank Kakashi a tad, and youre failing to get even that


Mad Scientist said:


> the author of the manga has went out of his way, on numerous occasions, to make distinctions between the two.


No

No he didnt actually

He introduces them as synonymous Jutsu, and they do the exact same thing, and at no point in this manga is there ever any voiced or shown difference made between either Jutsu

They are the same

Even kakashi uses them interchangeably


Mad Scientist said:


> From that first page, it is evidently true that:
> 
> Hiruzen quickly recognised Sasuke's Chidori as being Kakashi's jutsu (implying Chidori = Raikiri).
> Lightning Blade (Raikiri) is a nickname of the formal jutsu named Chidori (implying Raikiri = Chidori).


Which is all you need to stuff your argument

Really dont get how you can look at that scan, and arrive at those conclusions independently, which youve done, and then state "Yeah but they are A LITTLE different tho"

You literally just stated that Kishi tells us otherwise and you are aware of that

You dont see an issue with this?


Mad Scientist said:


> One would, therefore, naturally assume that Chidori _is_ Raikiri and that Raikiri _is_ Chidori. And this is completely true... except for one little thing...


No

Not one little thing

And also...Its not an "assumption" that they are the same...Its a GIVEN that they are as we are TOLD as much VERBATIM


Mad Scientist said:


> Whilst they _are_ fundamentally and technically the same jutsu (as noted and/or implied by Gai,  and , Hiruzen, *Link Removed*, and ...) there are some very subtle, real differences between them


No actually there arent

Not in the techniques themselves

The only differences would have to do with individual capability

Just like Naruto/Jiraiya/Minato/Boruto/Konohamarus Rasengans


Mad Scientist said:


> "Kakashi's Chidori" being a more potent technique in his hands --> Raikiri.


This is flat out bullshit 

You have no evidence for this claim whatsoever as there is none to be found in the manga

The only argument for "potency of Raikiri" being above Chidori would be to distinguish between Kakashi and Sasuke as individuals, in which case, yes, there is a point in the story where Kakashis Chidori hits harder than Sasukes (see what I did there?) but that has nothing to do with what fucking name is attached to it...It has to do with the fact kakashi is a 30 year old man and a veteran with the technique and Sasuke was a 12 year old who learned it yesterday

Kakashi could call his Chidori the fucking "Wet noodle" or "Applesauce Penguin" or "Nail gun" or "Taco motherfucking tiesday" and it wouldnt make a difference....The only difference between a Chidori in Sasukes hands and a Taco Tuesday in Kakashis is the user...THATS IT

PERIOD

And there comes a day (immedaitely post timeskip) where Sasukes potency exceeds Kakashis Taco Tuesday regardless


Mad Scientist said:


> Careful with your wording. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but just in case you still don't get it... No one in the manga has ever stated that the _only_ difference between Raikiri and Chidori is their nickname


Yes actually they have

The second we saw them in fact

When Gai said "AKA" he was doing EXACTLY THIS 

*Link Removed*

*Link Removed* (you quoted literally every one of these scans in your OP and just legit ignored all 3)

So there are 3 instances in this manga of something you claim never happened...One of which come directly from its creator...Not a good look buddy


Mad Scientist said:


> To say so would be factually incorrect because it was _*never*_ stated that the _only _difference between them is their nickname.


Minus Gai, and Kakashi, and Sasuke   


Mad Scientist said:


> They are not separate jutsu, but Raikiri is a more refined version of Chidori


Nope

They are the same, and stated to be the same by legit everyone who ever talks about both of them

Tell you what?

You find even ONE SYLLABLE in this manga even remotely implying Raikiri is "more refined" in ANY WAY and we'll call it my mistake

Till then?

Calling headcanon horseshit on this 


Mad Scientist said:


> It possesses higher quality


Based on legit nothing

Or else you post something aside from word vomit and head canon to back this 


Mad Scientist said:


> That only makes sense


No

Nothing about your stance makes sense

Youre flat out ignoring a mountain of evidence that Chidori = Raikiri including testimony from ITS CREATOR, THE LIFELONG RIVAL OF ITS CREATOR, AND THE CREATORS ONLY STUDENT

Not to mention a handful of others

And youre ignoring all of that in favor of literally nothing but personal conjecture at best


Mad Scientist said:


> after all...
> 
> Kakashi had learned Chidori by the time he was 9-10 years old and, for decades, honed _his use_ of the technique (, common sense), such that it  became *Link Removed*. Compare that to Sasuke who learned Chidori at 13 during the Chūnin Exams; he was 16 for most of Part II and 17 by the end of Shippuden. Naturally, Kakashi would have improved in chakra output, chakra control, physical finesse and dexterity, and through raw physical experience.


None of this?

Legit none of it?

Yeah none of it has anything to do with technique differences

Youre getting into individual ability and experience here, which, as Ive already said like 20 times now, is not indicative of anything

And this logic also flips on you if you try and argue Raikiri > Chidori as Sasuke takes Chidori HILARIOUSLY further than Kakashi and has WAY BETTER showings and hype with it


Mad Scientist said:


> Chakra output


You are NOT about to make a fucking reserves based argument for KAKASHIS favor here are you 

Already disproved this bullshit with testimony from the man himself anyway

KAKASHI STATES their chakra expenditure is EQUAL

So you can eat this argument too 


Mad Scientist said:


> For Chidori, it is stated that it brings forth "a great amount of chakra and concentrated into one ". For Raikiri, it is "a huge amount of chakra that is a wonder even to the eyes of the !! It predicts a hopeless future." The difference in portrayal could not be clearer.


This is literally just DB flavor text and is you doing teh definitiuon of arguing semantics

Ive said it once, Ive said it a hundred times to you now, but you can continue to spew all the word vomit here you want, cuz Kakashi already told us their cost is equal 

But by all means continue the semantics based mental gymnastics

SUPER good argument



Mad Scientist said:


> Chakra control


You dont wanna go here to argue for Raikiris superiority either bud 

This is, again, NOT a technical difference but an INDIVIDUAL one, and one where Kakashi ALSO gets shat on Post Timeskip 

Sasukes chakra control is hilariously better even during his Pre MS development, *Link Removed* *Link Removed*

What does Kakashi have on that level?

Especially by Sasukes age?

Oh thats right...Nothing...Ever...Good chat

Not even getting into when Sasuke gains SAGE OF SIX PATHS LEVEL CHAKRA CONTROL


Mad Scientist said:


> Obviously. This leads to finer concentration of the jutsu and heightened piercing potential.


Yep

Which again, is individual skill

Not a difference in the Jutsu themselves

And is a skill Kakashi false behind in VERY EARLY

Debunking your argument again


Mad Scientist said:


> *Physical finesse and dexterity of the actual technique*. Comes with the years of experience.


Physical stats...Are not...Technical differences between the techniques...

How are you sitting there and typing thsi right now?

Dude...99% of your post isnt even advocating for the right premise

Youre trying, and failing miserably btw, to advocate that "Raikiri>Chidori" meanwhile what youre ACTUALLY advocating for is "Kakashis physical attributes > PART 1 SASUKES, therefore Raikiri > Chidori"

Which...Yeah no shit?

But spinning that as a way to prove Raikiris superiority to Chidori IN GENERAL is dishonest as fuck...And what youve spent the entire thread doing


Mad Scientist said:


> *Physical experience overall*. Obviously. This leads to stronger synchronisation of the jutsu with the body and mind.


See?

You just did it again

How can a JUTSU have "overall experience"???

Thats how you know your premise is garbage 


Mad Scientist said:


> As opposed to Kakashi, Sasuke instead diversified his Chidori into different types of attacks such as Chidori Stream, Chidori Spear, Chidori Senbon etc. Whereas Sasuke diversified the technique (divergence), Kakashi used the same jutsu to the extent it became famous, largely increasing his skill in using the formal jutsu (convergence).


This is now you suggesting because Sasuke literally DEVELOPED CHIDORI MORE THAN KAKASHI DID thats somehow a point AGAINST Sasukes use of it


Thats literally what came tumbling out of your mouth just now

Deidara himself states that Sasukes use of Eiso is worth praising over Kakashis basic Raikiri and gives him props for doing what kakashi didnt or couldnt 

So youre wrong here too

All these points do is serve to illustrate Sasukes own creativity and ingenuity and skill

These are points to Sasukes SUPERIORITY over KAKASHi, not Chidoris INFERIORITY to RAIKIRI

How you manage to spin it that way takes a lot of bias tho...


Mad Scientist said:


> Here're more differences


You say "heres more"

Which implies youve presented some so far...And you havent 


Mad Scientist said:


> For Chidori, it is "That chirping penetrates even the most tenacious ," but for Raikiri, it is "this huge amount of chakra (note re-emphasis on huge chakra) is gathered in the hand, Kakashi's arm becomes a famous blade that can cut through ."


Addressed this all already


Mad Scientist said:


> For Chidori, it is "Furthermore, by running a long distance, this turns into a high-speed stab of destructive !!" but for Raikiri it is "In one swing, this swift stab turns into a famous blade that can even cut lightning!!"


Fun fact buddy boy

Raikiri isnt what it was called when it cut the lightning

CHIDORI WAS

CHIDORI is what the feat of cutting the lighning comes from

So, if you insist on differentiating them, you could at least get your facts straight


Mad Scientist said:


> He never said nor implied that "the idea of an _S-ranked jutsu_ is potentially unobtainable to _him_."


He did tho


Mad Scientist said:


> He simply stated that "the jutsu which [Naruto] is aiming for is an S-ranked level of difficulty... or possibly beyond. It might even be unachievable..."


He states he failed at combining his Chakra nature with Rasengan which is an S ranked task

He states he can handle up to A ranked Jutsu and then he runs into a wall

A wall that he states he failed to climb as even his mentor had

Its very clear what hes implying


Mad Scientist said:


> Actually, it does not state that "the two jutsu are the exact same


It does tho

Thats what "also known as" does

Watch

Your username is "Mad Scientist" but do I fundamentally change something about who you are or how you operate if I say "Youre also known as "Insane Researcher" ?

No

No I dont

Same shit here



Mad Scientist said:


> it reads 'When Kakashi uses [Chidori], "Chidori" is known as "Raikiri"


Which is literally them telling you aside from the name, there isnt a difference

Raikiri doesnt even have its own entry in those DBs ffs


Mad Scientist said:


> Which is true. Kakashi's "Chidori" is in fact called "Raikiri"


And thats the only difference


Mad Scientist said:


> While they are the same _jutsu_, fundamentally and technically, Kakashi's skill in using it is bette


Yes

Until its not

And again, this is individual skill...You LITERALLY JUST USED THE PHRASE

That is NOT how you argue that "Raikiri in general > Chidori in general"

Thats how you argue "Grown ass man Kakashi > 12 year old Sasuke"

It is inane to think those conclusions are interchangeable


Mad Scientist said:


> The Temporary Paralysis Technique (a D-rank jutsu) states





Mad Scientist said:


> "This is a basic ninjutsu usable even by genin classes, but *its intensity will vary greatly according to the caster’s .*"


THATS EVERY TECHNIQUE IN THE SERIES BUD

AND THATS ALSO INDIVIDUAL ABILITY AGAIN


Mad Scientist said:


> Variations in Appearance





Mad Scientist said:


> Finally, it should be noted that the size of Chidori and Raikiri can vary


Why bother debunking this argument when you literally just stated in your own words it has no merit and is just remarkably inconsistent 




Mad Scientist said:


> Variations in Sound Effect Sasuke's Chidori makes the _Chirp Chirp_ SFX, whereas next to all of adult Kakashi's Raikiri makes _Zap/Bzz/Bzk/Bzp/Krackle_


Sound effects?

Really?

Fucking sound effects?

THATS what your argument is based on now?

Semantics strike again

But hey lets follow this line of thinking through a bit more

How do you know that Raikiris differing sound effects arent a point toward its INFERIORITY? How do you know the bird chirping isnt indicative of it being more powerful?

Gai is the one who states that the chirping sound only occurs when your phsyical capabilities with teh Jutsu are high enough, so how do you know Kakashi as an adult just isnt garbage at it now?

*Link Removed* *Link Removed* of Sasuke *Link Removed* *Link Removed*...*Link Removed* times...Loads of different sounds...

Debunking this inane argument regardless


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 11, 2019)

I'm still under the impression that raikiri requiring less hand seals(raikiri needing 3, chidori 9) is the reason for it's higher rank, given hand seals were originally supposed to matter in this manga, even though that got thrown out as time went on.

Hand seals are meant to help the shinobi mold the chakra needed for the technique, and jutsu rank is based off the difficulty of performing the technique/skill required. Being able to perform the technique with less hand seals would require a higher level of skill/chakra control(thus making the technique harder to perform), thus the upgrade in rank. 

So when Sasuke is able to perform chidori with lesser hand seals(or not at all as turns out to be the case for both him and Kakashi), he has officially moved up to an s-ranked version of chidori, just doesn't have the nickname, as Kakashi cut lightning with it and earned the nickname, something Sasuke doesn't do.

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## Serene Grace (Nov 11, 2019)

Raikiri has a higher rank but that only indicates its more difficult to learn rather then it being stronger. You can make an argument that the 2 abilities became equal the moment Sasuke perfected Chidori, but there are hints to the 2 jutsus being the same thing


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 11, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> I'm still under the impression that raikiri requiring less hand seals(raikiri needing 3, chidori 9) is the reason for it's higher rank, given hand seals were originally supposed to matter in this manga, even though that got thrown out as time went on.


I know I already brought this up in the other thread to you, but Im just doing it again here for those who may not have participated in the other thread


Chidori/Raikiri can be performed using the exact same hand seals, even with the skill disparity between Part 1 Sasuke and Kakashi


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed* *Link Removed*





*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 11, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I know I already brought this up in the other thread to you, but Im just doing it again here for those who may not have participated in the other thread
> 
> 
> Chidori/Raikiri can be performed using the exact same hand seals, even with the skill disparity between Part 1 Sasuke and Kakashi
> ...



I didn't see that, but not surprising given how scuffed notifications are.

Yeah, I dunno. That's the only explanation I could figure for a rank difference, given what rank is supposed to signify in the series, and the likelihood that Sasuke mastered it in that short of a time seems unlikely, but who knows.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 11, 2019)

The argument doesn't really make sense.

We are told that Kakashi's chidori is called Riakiri. Great he gave his chidori a special name. That's cool but it doesn't make them *different*.

If the argument is Raikiri is somehow better than chidori, then Sasuke's "chidori" should be a "Raikiri" once he surpassed Kakashi's usage of it. There is no denying that at some point adult Sasuke's mastery of Raiton progressed passed Kakashi. Even in the extreme case of Rinnegan Sasuke as the benchmark.

The point is Sasuke's chidori, even when surpassing Kakashi's version, never became a Raikiri. Therefore the potency/power/mastery/whatever metric you use to judge greatness is *NOT THE REASON FOR THE DIFFERENCE IN NAME*.

It's just a nickname unrelated to power/mastery/dick size/whatever.

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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 11, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> There is no denying that at some point adult Sasuke's mastery of Raiton progressed passed Kakashi


OP has legit said to my face he thinks Lightning Beast Running is a greater showing of Raiton ability than kirin is


Mad Scientist said:


> Kakashi's demonstration of shape manipulation using the Lightning Hound far exceeds Sasuke's Kirin, though that's an impressive jutsu.


So apparently anything can be denied if you wank something else hard enough or theres enough downplay involved


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 11, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> OP has legit said to my face he thinks Lightning Beast Running is a greater showing of Raiton ability than kirin is
> 
> So apparently anything can be denied if you wank something else hard enough or theres enough downplay involved



So making a doggo out raiton is superior to controlling nature itself. (and shape manipulating it to look like a dragon no less)

I don't know what to say. This is wack.

EDIT: My point is still valid however as part 1 Kakashi's called his generic as fuck chidori a Raikiri. There is NO DOUBT that Adult Sasuke surpassed part 1 Kakashi in raiton manipulation and his chidori still never became Raikiri.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 11, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> So making a doggo out raiton is superior to controlling nature itself. (and shape manipulating it to look like a dragon no less)
> 
> I don't know what to say. This is wack.
> 
> EDIT: My point is still valid however as part 1 Kakashi's called his generic as fuck chidori a Raikiri. There is NO DOUBT that Adult Sasuke surpassed part 1 Kakashi in raiton manipulation and his chidori still never became Raikiri.



Well by definition it can't become raikiri until he cuts lightning with it, as raikiri means lightning cutter and that's the reason it was given that name.

So in summary, yes, earlier than P1 Kakashi > Adult Sasuke cause Kakashi can cut lightning and he can't

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## ShinAkuma (Nov 11, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Well by definition it can't become raikiri until he cuts lightning with it, as raikiri means lightning cutter and that's the reason it was given that name.
> 
> So in summary, yes, earlier than P1 Kakashi > Adult Sasuke cause Kakashi can cut lightning and he can't



Well that is the actual reason for the name. The point remains that the difference has nothing to do with power or mastery. Kakashi just told kids bedtime stories of cutting lightning bolt in half while Sasuke went and got lighting bolts to do his bidding.

I prefer my theory to the rank difference to be honest. Chidori for Kakashi will always be S-rank because *it is more difficult for him to execute because he only has one sharingan*. Sasuke has two as such if "sharingan insight" is the catalyst to perform the jutsu.....well Sauce has double the insight, making the jutsu easier for him to perform.


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## MShadows (Nov 11, 2019)

@Mad Scientist just so you know, you can’t tag more than 8 people in a single post. The ninth person and forth won’t receive a notification (I didn’t either).

Nice thread tho. It should be common sense that Raikiri is an upgraded Chidori.


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## Blaze Release (Nov 11, 2019)

One of the ways a jutsu's power can be increased is by pouring more chakra into the technique.
That's what raikiri is and that is why its the stronger of the two.

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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 11, 2019)

Blaze Release said:


> One of the ways a jutsu's power can be increased is by pouring more chakra into the technique.
> That's what raikiri is and that is why its the stronger of the two.


This logic makes literally no sense as nothing stops Chidori from doing the exact same thing

Kakashi also flat out states their chakra expenditures are equal

So youre wrong regardless


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## Hasan (Nov 11, 2019)

Raikiri _is_ Chidori. Everyone realizes that, but the idea was that author maintained a distinction. The 'two techniques' are perceived differently.

Chidori is Kakashi's technique.
Raikiri is its nickname.
But Sasuke does not use Raikiri.

My point was that these kind of issues are far better explained from an author's perspective. None of us are not expected to read Kishimoto's mind, but we can certainly make reasonable assumptions that authors generally make: This is most likely a case of the author associating particular ideas with some characters, so as to distinguish them. When Sasuke uses the technique, it should not overshadow Kakashi, so he marks a distinction. It's Kakashi's techinque, his signature, he is renowned for it — there's no reason to take away that is a _part_ of what makes the character. Every character has recognized it as his technique, and Kakuzu recognized who the assailant was on account of said assailant's powerful Raiton.

... Basically what many people have already said it (in here, as well in the past), and what the Databook states: Raikiri is Chidori honed to perfection. All other characters have their own charms; there is absolutely no need to argue who is a better taijutsu-user between Naruto and Rock Lee or Sasuke and Rock Lee or who is faster between Tobirama and Hashirama. Similarly Raikiri is uniquely Kakashi's.

_"An uncommon shinobi wielding a divine spear that surpasses the lightning"_ _~ Databook 4_.

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## Dano (Nov 11, 2019)

They are the same. Raikiri is just a honed Chidori because Kakashi honed his own Chidori to make Raikiri. Which is just the same technique, and Kakashi added a nice nickname for it. Sasuke’s technique started with Chidori because it was an amateur one at first but then evolved thru part 1 and part 2. Just because Kakashi’s Raikiri > Kakashi’s Chidori doesn’t mean Kakashi’s Raikiri > Every Chidori out there. In Sasuke case there are significant differences between SunaInvasionSasuke’s, VoteSasuke’s, BoS Sasuke’s , Hebi Sasuke’s, Taka Sasuke’s, War Arc Sasuke’s, etc Chidori. And by feats Sasuke’s Chidori at some point overcame Kakashi’s Raikiri.

I subscribe to the notion Kishi had different nicknames so as to not confuse signature moves between Sasuke and Kakashi. So much even Sasuke corrected foes alike.


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 11, 2019)

Well while we are on this topic does piercing lightning attacks paralyze? It seems to be that they just pierce or cut if that is their purpose...


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2019)

I thought you left....


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## Dano (Nov 11, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Well while we are on this topic does piercing lightning attacks paralyze? It seems to be that they just pierce or cut if that is their purpose...


Chidori or Raikiri is inconsistent in that regard. It theorically should also paralyze, demonstrated when Yamato said the chidori running thru Sasuke's blade is what made him numb (unless I read the wrong translation all the time). So it attributes to Chidori being the cause.

It's said infused chakra nature to an object adquires piercing feats. But the best of them all should be wind release, not Lightning one. I guess Chidori infused or lightning infused blade should have another property such as paralysis.

There is just one occasion Chidori indeed made the user numb and that was when Sasuke used Chidori on himself. That's the only occasion Chidori actually behaved as more than just piercing capability making sense of element nature.

But then Chidori piercing feats are strange tho, sometimes Sasuke needs momentum with all his body to pierce something. Then other time he only just needs to swing his arm and pierce Naruto like butter as Vote display. But there was one off-screened clash that Chidori didn't pierce at all, which was in Sasuke vs Itachi fight. It behaved as Sasuke vs Naruto vote 2 display except Itachi doesn't have any Kyuubi mode. It was more like a Chidori slap or punch.

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## Speedyamell (Nov 11, 2019)

Wow. Ok I'm disappointed.. I really read that large wall of text only for you to not actually end up bringing up a feasible reason for why those two are indeed different techniques. All you did was compare kakashi and sasuke's use of it. Which does not equate to the technique itself being different..
Take away the Nickname and the two techniques are literally "chidori".
Jiraiya almost certainly had a more powerful version of rasengan than naruto when he first learned it, but that doesn't change the fact that the two techniques are still "rasengan" and the same thing.

I don't know why you brought up DB rank either. Rank does not denote power.. but rather the difficulty to achieve a tech. A tech can have higher rank/difficulty and still be weaker then techniques of lower rank.. so that doesn't help your argument either


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## BlackHeartedImp (Nov 11, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> No it isnt
> 
> ...


Insane researcher, LMFAO. 
Even your rants and tirades are entertaining, Worlds.

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## MaruUchiha (Nov 11, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> I'm still under the impression that raikiri requiring less hand seals(raikiri needing 3, chidori 9) is the reason for it's higher rank, given hand seals were originally supposed to matter in this manga, even though that got thrown out as time went on.
> 
> Hand seals are meant to help the shinobi mold the chakra needed for the technique, and jutsu rank is based off the difficulty of performing the technique/skill required. Being able to perform the technique with less hand seals would require a higher level of skill/chakra control(thus making the technique harder to perform), thus the upgrade in rank.
> 
> So when Sasuke is able to perform chidori with lesser hand seals(or not at all as turns out to be the case for both him and Kakashi), he has officially moved up to an s-ranked version of chidori, just doesn't have the nickname, as Kakashi cut lightning with it and earned the nickname, something Sasuke doesn't do.





Cherry said:


> Raikiri has a higher rank but that only indicates its more difficult to learn rather then it being stronger. You can make an argument that the 2 abilities became equal the moment Sasuke perfected Chidori, but there are hints to the 2 jutsus being the same thing


These both sound like reaches out of in denial of Raikiri being superior.. Since when does a Jutsu move up to S rank simply off the hand signs? Or it being "more difficult to learn" but it's not superior?


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 11, 2019)

Clearly if Adult Sasuke & Part 1 Kakashi clashed with Chidori & Raikiri, the latter would win out. Raikiri is S-rank bro. While Chidori destroyed a meteor, Raikiri would destroy close to a dozen. 

Part 1 Raikiri > meteor busting Chidori > Rinnegan Sauce’s Chidori > EMS/MS Sauce’s Chidori = 3 year old Kakashi’s Chidori


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## J★J♥ (Nov 11, 2019)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Clearly if Adult Sasuke & Part 1 Kakashi clashed with Chidori & Raikiri, the latter would win out. Raikiri is S-rank bro. While Chidori destroyed a meteor, Raikiri would destroy close to a dozen.
> 
> Part 1 Raikiri > meteor busting Chidori > Rinnegan Sauce’s Chidori > EMS/MS Sauce’s Chidori = 3 year old Kakashi’s Chidori


Tbh exploding shit with something that is supposed to be a concentrated chakra blade is just bad writing.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 11, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> These both sound like reaches out of in denial of Raikiri being superior.. Since when does a Jutsu move up to S rank simply off the hand signs? Or it being "more difficult to learn" but it's not superior?


Look at the example Davizwiz posted, you clearly don’t know shit about ranks and strength of jutsu at all


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## MaruUchiha (Nov 11, 2019)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Clearly if Adult Sasuke & Part 1 Kakashi clashed with Chidori & Raikiri, the latter would win out. Raikiri is S-rank bro. While Chidori destroyed a meteor, Raikiri would destroy close to a dozen.
> 
> Part 1 Raikiri > meteor busting Chidori > Rinnegan Sauce’s Chidori > EMS/MS Sauce’s Chidori = 3 year old Kakashi’s Chidori


You're doing a bad job at trying to be a smartass.. Nobody said Part 1 Kakashi's Raikiri > Adult Sasuke's Chidori, but Adult Sasuke's Raikiri > Adult Sasuke's Chidori, pretty simple


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 11, 2019)

J★J♥ said:


> Tbh exploding shit with something that is supposed to be a concentrated chakra blade is just bad writing.


Welcome to Naruto


MaruUchiha said:


> You're doing a bad job at trying to be a smartass.. Nobody said Part 1 Kakashi's Raikiri > Adult Sasuke's Chidori, but Adult Sasuke's Raikiri > Adult Sasuke's Chidori, pretty simple


As usual you make no sense & don’t know what you’re talking about. Thanks for the neg though ya manchild


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 11, 2019)

Jutsu tank is not dependent on strength but difficulty to learn.


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## Blaze Release (Nov 11, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This logic makes literally no sense as nothing stops Chidori from doing the exact same thing
> 
> *Kakashi also flat out states their chakra expenditures are equal*
> 
> So youre wrong regardless



My manga knowledge is gone so please upload the bold.


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## Grinningfox (Nov 11, 2019)

Blaze Release said:


> My manga knowledge is gone so please upload the bold.


I think it’s when Kakashi is talking to Sasuke about how many Chidori he can do a day

Sasuke’s limit is two and Kakashi’s four

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## ZmkSc (Nov 11, 2019)

Welcome back bro. I admit that there is a bit of confusion made by information provided in DB and ,sometimes, in manga in regards to Chidori and raikeri. In that case, i prefer to revert to feats. From feats perspective, one could find it hard to make a distinction between their output power due to not having a scenario where one succeeds in doing what the other failed to do . So even if both jutsu aren't exactly equal, you wouldn't be able to precisely estimate how much difference there is. However, Raikeri kunai is obviously superior to both by channelling same amount of chakra through smaller and more pointy edge which is the concept behind A3's Hell stab, but that is another argument.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Nov 11, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> These both sound like reaches out of in denial of Raikiri being superior.. Since when does a Jutsu move up to S rank simply off the hand signs? Or it being "more difficult to learn" but it's not superior?



I explained in my post why that theory made sense to me, dunno why you're asking those questions when the answer is in what you quoted.

And it was pretty much debunked by what @WorldsStrongest posted anyway, so it's irrelevant.

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 11, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> You're not back? By the look of things you never even left.


That's not too good then...



Blu-ray said:


> This same author is the one who wrote that Raikiri was just an alternative name for the same technique in the first place, so chances are it's our own perception of his intent that's flawed, rather than him actually making distinctions.


It's not just the name/user that's distinguished, it's also the:

Clear differences in DB description and rank, leading to the idea that Raikiri > Chidori.
​There is actually another time a distinction was maintained. By referring to Kakashi's jutsu, "Chidori", as his _"original"_ technique, yet again goes hand-in-hand with the motion.
​
Portrayal ("Lightning Blade" is famous, Chidori is a formal name.)
Sound effect (90% of Chidori early adopters [Sasuke, kid Kakashi] = _Chirp_ _sounds_ [with explainable exceptions], 100% of Raikiri = _electric sounds_.) This suggests an evolution of the jutsu where one has learned it and one has mastered it, as hinted at in the DB.

*Spoiler*: _Chirp Chirp_ 









*Spoiler*: _Electricity_ 








Appearance (I've re-examined the images; Raikiri consistently appears larger + streams up more often than Chidori.)

*Spoiler*: _Visual Evidence: Raikiri consistently appears larger + streams up more often than Chidori_ 











Retained distinctions (Sasuke, Naruto, Boruto, SFX).



Blu-ray said:


> His wording might be technically off and thus wrong, but that doesn't really negate the overall point. People don't go around stating negatives. You're supposed to think what you see is what you get unless indicated otherwise. No one said the Rasengan_ doesn't_ has an alternative nickname for instance, but that doesn't mean we go around assuming that it _might _have one. That's just basic logic, especially given that this is a work of fiction. If we were meant to believe something, the author would at the very least hint at it.


The DB descriptions clearly portray that Raikiri > Chidori. There's hype too; Raikiri is the famous "Lightning Cutter" whereas Chidori is just... Chidori, One Thousand Birds.



Blu-ray said:


> You're comparing the users of the techniques, not the techniques themselves, and your not even comparing them in a way that would imply which is better than which. Kakashi had the technique longer and had more renown, but neither of those things necessarily implies that he is _better._


The DB implies that Raikiri:

Holds more chakra.
Has stronger piercing potential.
Is faster.
Kakashi having the technique longer would naturally indicate a more adept usage (skill) of it; this natural presupposition is steeled by the fact the DB states he honed it to perfection, together further strengthened by the three implications above, not to mention the raw differences and fact the distinctions have been retained, all function to establish it as the true superior.



Blu-ray said:


> Saying _"as opposed to Kakashi"_ would imply that Kakashi did something equivalent in the opposite direction when he did not. Sasuke having a bunch of variants speaks only for his skill when it comes to applying shape manipulation and his overall mastering of Chidori and Raiton, and cannot be compared to something abstract like renown, when that comes from becoming famous over years of use, not necessarily being more skilled. Besides, it's not like Kakashi doesn't have variants like Raiden and other Raiton like his Lightning Hound.


By "opposed", I mean there's a contrast. Kakashi honed it within 18+ years (natural assumption, plus DB) and only showed/talked about Raikiri (as opposed to Sasuke who showed various different variant jutsu alongside). I believe it was commonly held in belief that Lightning Hound and Raiden etc., were techniques he later developed over the course of his own diversification in training. In the 3 years Sasuke had Chidori, however, his divergence was very clear: He had produced numerous different Chidori-style techniques and/or techniques that originate from focusing Raiton chakra into the hands based on the principles of Chidori.

Furthermore, his Chidori doesn't exhibit the intensity of power that Raikiri establishes; this is, on average, highly discernible by the difference in appearance, sound effect, and is heavily implied by the DB and fact Kakashi had it for much longer than him to the extent he honed it to perfection. If the question is _could_ Sasuke have mastered it in 3 years since inception... perhaps, though the evidence points towards a focus on divergence rather than convergence, therefore clearly suggesting he didn't hone it to perfection like Kakashi did.



Blu-ray said:


> That's like saying _"it does not state the glass is half empty, but that it's half full." _It's different wording that conveys the same exact meaning. As the saying goes, _"A rose by any other name is just as sweet/still a rose, yadda yadda yadda." _Saying that something is also known by something else inherently means they're the same thing. People who have nicknames aren't suddenly different people judging by which name you choose to call them. Same logic applies here.


I agree with you. But WS said "it also states the two jutsu are the exact same." Firstly, and I know you already noted the deflection on this... that poster is technically incorrect. More importantly, the reason I pointed out that while they are the same fundamentally, Kakashi's skill in using Raikiri is better, is because of the reasons provided above. I understand you pointed out that this would be referring to the user's technique, not the jutsu itself, but I did also mention elsewhere that there are real differences in the jutsu itself - they're listed above too.



Blu-ray said:


> At this point you're not even arguing about the techniques themselves being different, but the users themselves, and their prowess. Even then though, you'd still be wrong. Or at the very least, you have nothing to actually back up your claim that Kakashi's is more refined or anything of the sort.


I have provided evidence above to reinforce the idea that Raikiri is more refined. I also do believe that Kakashi's skill in using it is stronger. In truth, I believe these go hand-in-hand. Think of it like this... In my view, BoS Sasuke can't use Chidori at the same level that BoS Kakashi can use Raikiri, despite Raikiri being fundamentally the same jutsu as Chidori. There are inherent upgrades to Raikiri _because_ of Kakashi's honing (such as piercing potential), but his ability in its execution is coupled with his skill and experience that allows for such improvement.

_If it's the case_ that my argument that _Raikiri_ as a jutsu is stronger than Chidori is flawed, then I would at least commit to arguing that _Kakashi's_ Raikiri is stronger than _Sasuke's_ Chidori (bar Rikudo/variants etc.) due to variations in chakra concentration and technical skill, for example. If it's the case that the argument _is_ flawed, we shouldn't rule out this being due to a difference in our expectations/definition i.e. throughout calling Raikiri > Chidori, it can be said that it's in essence _Kakashi's_ Raikiri vs _Sasuke's_ Chidori e.g. if I were referring to Daikodan, everyone'd know I'm referring to Kisame's Daikodan.



Blu-ray said:


> You cited him knowing the technique for years and him being more famous with it, but as I said before, this doesn't indicate which of the two is actually better. Jiraiya had Sage Mode for years before Naruto did and was renowned for it, yet Naruto's Sage Mode was flat out better. Kakashi's Raikiri has no actual feat of being superior to Sasuke's, nor any indication of the sort.


Mm, it's not just the fact he had it for much longer, it's the fact this natural presupposition of mastery goes hand-in-hand with the DB's statement that he honed it _and_ the fact he likely didn't focus too much on _divergence_ because he was still not very adept at using his S_haringan_, improvements largely coming in during the BoS and Raikiri variations shortly after. With Jiraiya and Naruto, we do have statements suggesting Naruto's SM > Jiraiya's. Even then, the difference would've been marginal considering how Jiraiya is portrayed in the *Link Removed* and in the  too.



Blu-ray said:


> Why even post this something this nitpicky, especially when you yourself debunk it by pointing out the size and sound effects can vary?
> 
> As for Kakashi's being more striking or whatever, it's in your head. If there was more definition like A3's nukite I'd understand, but they all like an amorphous discharge of electricity surrounding the hand.


I point out the differences in size because some cannot be used to compare standard versions of Raikiri and Chidori, which is what I was focused on. Most of the standard versions of Raikiri are larger than Chidori, as far as I can tell; I reasoned this was one of the inherent improvements Kakashi made during his honing of the technique, or in other words, he can concentrate a larger amount of chakra more finely. I've explained the SFX near the beginning of this reply.

The reason I went to this depth was to attempt to see if they actually are different in other ways aside from just what the DB clearly states and portrays. It turned out not only were the naming distinctions retained, but SFX were (outside of outliers/the sample space) _consistently_ different as well between the early adopters (Sasuke, kid Kakashi) and the seasoned user (adult Kakashi). In my view, appearance too.



Grinningfox said:


> Man what Sasuke did goes beyond just elemental superiority , it’s a feat Kakashi couldn’t dream of replicating as indicated by his war arc feats. As you’ve lain out in op the USER is what’s going to make the most difference and Sasuke’s chakra is Six Paths enhanced . Just not seeing Kakashi replicating this
> 
> Also why are we thinking that Kakashi kept trying to refine Raikiri ? He’s out of shape in PT1 and  rusty so obviously he’s not increasing his jutsu.


I have no issue with Adult Sasuke's Chidori >= WA Kakashi's Raikiri. Me originally noting this was just for illustration; I was echoing Reddan's words.

As for the second point:

The DB states that Kakashi honed the jutsu to perfection. The DB has a number of implications too that Raikiri > Chidori. You can find these in images above.
We only see Raikiri variants _after_ he's more adept at using the Sharingan, suggesting that, with (1), he had first honed, and perfected his Raikiri rather than diverging into variant jutsu creation like Sasuke had done.

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 11, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You're missing what I said.
> 
> MS Sasuke has better chakra than CS2 Sasuke. So his jutsu are more potent. And it's even larger vs the Raikage.


That's clearly an outlier which is why it's in none of the comparison-based images. Sasuke knew the Raikage was durable so he obviously wanted to pierce him with a chakra-enhanced Chidori. Ask yourself why do we basically never see him do that again with a standard Chidori?

What are you trying to imply by suggesting MS Sasuke's Chidori is more potent than CS2 Sasuke's?




Hi no Ishi said:


> It make no sense to think Kakashi's Raikiri would be stronger especially in part 1.


You may well be correct.



Hi no Ishi said:


> And the amount of time someone has a jutsu means Jack nothing in this manga. 16 year old Naruto is better with Rasengan than Kakashi will ever be and flat out tells us Naruto is better at Ninjutsu. The author clearly does not care about how long someone just had a jutsu.


The time goes hand-in-hand with the DB's statement conveying he mastered it. Chidori clearly has a less boisterous portrayal by comparison. Your Naruto example is moot; I didn't just say it was how long someone had a jutsu for, but what they did with that time.


Mad Scientist said:


> Kakashi had learned Chidori by the time he was 9-10 years old





Mad Scientist said:


> *and*, for decades, honed _his use_ of the technique (, common sense), such that it  became *Link Removed*.





Hi no Ishi said:


> It's that the premise is incorrect is my issue.
> 
> Raikiri isnt a better jutsu than itself. Raikiri is Chidori.
> Like most jutsu it just depends on the power and skill of the user.


I may be willing to concede on the contention with the premise, but what you should note is that when I mention Raikiri it is with consideration that it's (for example take their BoS versions) _Kakashi's_ "Raikiri" which is stronger than (Sasuke's) Chidori. I mean, the difference in the DB is quite stark. If I were to mention Daikodan, everyone'd know I would be referring to _Kisame's_ Daikodan.



DaVizWiz said:


> Only difference is the ranking.
> 
> Shouldn’t matter though,
> 
> ...


I've got Daikodan as A-rank...

Anyway, there are at least three important points I should make here:

We should consider the author's intention at the time. Since the DB's rankings for various jutsu may well be erratic and ill-considered, we can at least consider two (one) techniques that were released at the same time, in the same book, in consideration of the same chapter range, and take the author's intention here. He clearly wanted Raikiri to be portrayed higher than Chidori because there are several implications in the .
For jutsu that may be lowly ranked where one may reason that it should be higher, consider that they may actually be stronger in the hands of a strong caster (thus a higher rank _for them_). This idea of intensity is made explicitly clear in the description of the paralysis .
For most of the A-rank techniques listed here, it matches what Narutopedia indicates. 
*Spoiler*: _Definition 1_ 



  or jōnin-level techniques. Require great control over one's chakra and may be .


 
*Spoiler*: _Definition 2_ 



*A-rank* (Aランク, _Ē ranku_) is one of the six classifications. It is preceded by  and followed by . It is typically used when classifying  intended for ninja of the  and  levels. A-rank techniques are often very useful, but need extensive training before they can be mastered. Some A-rank techniques also pose a risk to the user, resulting in their classification as . 


 For most of the following A-rank jutsu listed above, I believe they match the above description(s). I do believe that there's a correlation between the power of a jutsu and its difficulty to learn/acquire in regards to how said jutsu is ranked.
On another note, I don't think the two C-rank examples are better than Raikiri. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Tsunade's kick is just a kick to the ground and was way less powerful than Sakura's attack. On the other hand, Raikiri is "a huge amount of chakra that is even a wonder to the eyes!!" and "a famous blade that can cut anything, even lightning!" Something to that effect. I agree with you that rank does not necessarily equal power, but for Raikiri there are many other factors involved that indicate its prowess over Chidori. And by Raikiri and Chidori, I may well have been referring to _Kakashi's_ Raikiri > _Sasuke's_ Chidori as these are whom the two techniques are essentially exclusively known for. Kakashi's is Raikiri. Sasuke's is Chidori. Like if I was comparing Daikodan to a random Suiton, one would naturally assume that I was talking about _Kisame's_ Daikodan vs a random Suiton (and should that Suiton be named and belong to only one user, the same principle would follow).






WorldsStrongest said:


> "Chidori, ALSO KNOWN AS RAIKIRI"


Why do you keep stating the obvious and wasting space on my thread, stating things everyone's already been informed of numerous times - are you incapable of actually tackling the arguments made, or do you need the word count and spacing to make your post appear stronger?

Here's more waste...


WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> No it isnt


I'm going to guess you're going to continue this habit? Let's see if I'm correct...



WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> No he didnt actually


Sigh...

It's incredibly ironic how you berate people for repeating things...

Examples of Your Hypocrisy


WorldsStrongest said:


> Like dude...Youre making no fucking sense here at all
> 
> Youre repeating yourself ad nauseaum





WorldsStrongest said:


> Matter of fact ive dealt with this amazing "retort" both ways already
> 
> Not repeating myself





WorldsStrongest said:


> Stop repeating yourself ad nauseam please





WorldsStrongest said:


> Please stop repeating your points ad nauseam as if I havent already addressed them





WorldsStrongest said:


> No he isnt
> 
> Just went over why
> 
> ...


Oh, and here's the killer.



WorldsStrongest said:


> People this consistently shit at debating shouldnt be allowed to post





WorldsStrongest said:


> Ive also gotten a concession out of you on this topic in the past
> 
> So Im real fucking curious why youd make a thread arguing against that concession
> 
> Seems to me like youre just trying to appeal to popularity to cover your own ass and wank Kakashi a tad, and youre failing to get even that


Why would I want to appeal to popularity lol? An overwhelming number of people think Minato under unfavourable conditions somehow magically keeps repeatedly tagging _and_ hurting the Fourth Raikage to the point of death. Did I argue for Minato? Hell no. And Minato's a well-characterised and likeable character too. Heck, a startling number of people think _base_ Minato takes _Kisamehada_ on the _Pacific Ocean_ separated by _30 metres_. Good lord.



Mad Scientist said:


> It is inaccurate to state that they are equal and the same, when the author of the manga has went out of his way, on numerous occasions, to make distinctions between the two.
> 
> 
> WorldsStrongest said:
> ...


Okay now you are just either lying, trolling or _*heavily*_ misinformed. Please admit you're wrong on this and we can continue.



~Kakashi~ said:


> I'm still under the impression that raikiri requiring less hand seals(raikiri needing 3, chidori 9) is the reason for it's higher rank, given hand seals were originally supposed to matter in this manga, even though that got thrown out as time went on.
> 
> Hand seals are meant to help the shinobi mold the chakra needed for the technique, and jutsu rank is based off the difficulty of performing the technique/skill required. Being able to perform the technique with less hand seals would require a higher level of skill/chakra control(thus making the technique harder to perform), thus the upgrade in rank.
> 
> So when Sasuke is able to perform chidori with lesser hand seals(or not at all as turns out to be the case for both him and Kakashi), he has officially moved up to an s-ranked version of chidori, just doesn't have the nickname, as Kakashi cut lightning with it and earned the nickname, something Sasuke doesn't do.


Do you believe *Link Removed* reached the level of perfection Kakashi was stated to ? I don't think kid 2T Sasuke, who was able to form it with 3 hand seals reached what Kakashi reached with 18+ years. I would however agree that by Part II, Sasuke had managed to master the Chidori to the point of not needing a single hand seal to invoke it - though that still doesn't mean it's on the level of Raikiri.

Since we know that hand seals aid a character in properly summoning and moulding chakra necessary to perform a *Link Removed*, reducing hand seals is a common indication that said individual is becoming increasingly adept at controlling and manipulating chakra for said technique, and this can continue to the point they no longer even need to use any hand seals (such as in Kakashi and Sasuke's case). Remember, hand seals _help_ them; they're not necessarily _needed_ for certain jutsu and certain users.

You may ask why did P1 Kakashi use three for Raikiri? That would probably be because he was *Link Removed*.



ShinAkuma said:


> The argument doesn't really make sense.
> 
> We are told that Kakashi's chidori is called Riakiri. Great he gave his chidori a special name. That's cool but it doesn't make them *different*.
> 
> ...


Why would Sasuke's Chidori be called Raikiri? Raikiri is the name Kakashi personally gave to his Chidori. Anyway, it's not just the name and backstory that makes the difference, there are statements strongly  that Raikiri is an enhanced version of Chidori. The distinction between the two is further reinforced in the manga and DB.



oMeGa1904 said:


> They are the same. Raikiri is just a honed Chidori because Kakashi honed his own Chidori to make Raikiri.


I agree.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Well while we are on this topic does piercing lightning attacks paralyze? It seems to be that they just pierce or cut if that is their purpose...


Yes. Though you wouldn't expect it to if it goes through the body and out. We saw Sasuke's Raiton paralyse Killer *Link Removed*, Kakashi's Lightning , Darui's lightning water ... Electricity travels dangerously fast and even in this short moment Bee was instantly electrocuted. As such, it is in my estimation that large animals with a nervous system would be paralysed too if Sasuke, for example, dug his Chidori into their flesh.



oMeGa1904 said:


> Chidori or Raikiri is inconsistent in that regard. It theorically should also paralyze, demonstrated when Yamato said the chidori running thru Sasuke's blade is what made him numb (unless I read the wrong translation all the time). So it attributes to Chidori being the cause.
> 
> It's said infused chakra nature to an object adquires piercing feats. But the best of them all should be wind release, not Lightning one. I guess Chidori infused or lightning infused blade should have another property such as paralysis.
> 
> ...


We know  Raiton  certainly *Link Removed*. What I would say about using jutsu on people's self... in this manga, people's own jutsu/powers don't always seem to hurt them much. Take Mei Terumi, the Raikages, Sasuke, Kakashi etc., as examples.



Speedyamell said:


> Wow. Ok I'm disappointed.. I really read that large wall of text only for you to not actually end up bringing up a feasible reason for why those two are indeed different techniques. All you did was compare kakashi and sasuke's use of it. Which does not equate to the technique itself being different..
> Take away the Nickname and the two techniques are literally "chidori".
> Jiraiya almost certainly had a more powerful version of rasengan than naruto when he first learned it, but that doesn't change the fact that the two techniques are still "rasengan" and the same thing.
> 
> I don't know why you brought up DB rank either. Rank does not denote power.. but rather the difficulty to achieve a tech. A tech can have higher rank/difficulty and still be weaker then techniques of lower rank.. so that doesn't help your argument either


Why are you focusing on my brief mention of the rank when there are numerous other factors I mentioned. It's as if you either lied about reading it or didn't understand it. Anyway, if you want an answer regarding the technique itself, read my replies above in this/above post.



Jackalinthebox said:


> Clearly if Adult Sasuke & Part 1 Kakashi clashed with Chidori & Raikiri, the latter would win out. Raikiri is S-rank bro. While Chidori destroyed a meteor, Raikiri would destroy close to a dozen.
> 
> Part 1 Raikiri > meteor busting Chidori > Rinnegan Sauce’s Chidori > EMS/MS Sauce’s Chidori = 3 year old Kakashi’s Chidori


Why would P1 Kakashi's Raikiri clearly win against Adult Sasuke's Chidori? If you're joking, you haven't really added anything new to the discussion, so... what exactly is the point you're making, if any?



SakuraLover16 said:


> Jutsu tank is not dependent on strength but difficulty to learn.


That certainly seems to be part of it. I think another part is how powerful the jutsu is. There's a correlation between these two factors in how the resultant jutsu is factored into a rank.


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 11, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Why would P1 Kakashi's Raikiri clearly win against Adult Sasuke's Chidori? If you're joking, you haven't really added anything new to the discussion, so... what exactly is the point you're making, if any?


Was me poking fun at your claims of Kakashi’s Raikiri being equal to or only marginally weaker than adult Sauce’s Chidori


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 11, 2019)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Was me poking fun at your claims of Kakashi’s Raikiri being equal to or only marginally weaker than adult Sauce’s Chidori


I know I've indicated/stated Adult Sasuke's being >= WA Kakashi's for sure. If I said P1 Kakashi anywhere, I take that back lol. Now, instead of poking fun, why not take me on, with the subject matter at hand?

​


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 11, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Why would Sasuke's Chidori be called Raikiri?



Why are you asking me? It's your premise Raikiri is the graduated form of chidori. I'm simply pointing out if that were the case *then at some point Sasuke's chidori should have become Raikiri*.

If you feel it's simply a naming issue and nothing more, then there isn't anything to discuss.



> Anyway, it's not just the name and backstory that makes the difference, there are statements strongly  that Raikiri is an enhanced version of Chidori.



So is it only a nickname or not?

If not then why are all of Sasuke's enhancements to chidori not make it Raikiri?

And if the power isn't related to the nickname then there is no point in making a distinction between the two other than Kakashi gave his a cool name.



> The distinction between the two is further reinforced in the manga and DB.



But the manga tells us they are the same.

Anyway my point is Raikiri is not *inherently superior to chidori*.

Of course Kakashi's Raikiri is superior to some variants of chidori. Part 1 Kakashi vs part 1 Sasuke for example. Conversely some variants of chidori are superior to Raikiri. Rinnegan Sasuke vs part 1 Kakashi for example.

The name is unrelated to the power.


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 11, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I know I've indicated/stated Adult Sasuke's being >= WA Kakashi's for sure. If I said P1 Kakashi anywhere, I take that back lol. Now, instead of poking fun, why not take me on, with the subject matter at hand?
> 
> ​


You claimed the gap between Adult Sauce’s Chidori & WA Kakashi’s Chidori was equal to the gap between MS Sauce’s & WA Kakashi’s lol. That’s whack


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 11, 2019)

Jackalinthebox said:


> You claimed the gap between Adult Sauce’s Chidori & WA Kakashi’s Chidori was equal to the gap between MS Sauce’s & WA Kakashi’s lol. That’s whack


i didn't. ur taking it out of context / you must not read my posting style. quote me.



ShinAkuma said:


> Why are you asking me? It's your premise Raikiri is the graduated form of chidori. I'm simply pointing out if that were the case *then at some point Sasuke's chidori should have become Raikiri*.


Because Raikiri is just a nickname............ adult sauce > BoS kakashi Raikiri for example, it's still not called raikiri.....


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 11, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Because Raikiri is just a nickname............ adult sauce > BoS kakashi Raikiri for example, it's still not called raikiri.....



Ok.

So one is not inherently superior to the other.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 11, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok.
> 
> So one is not inherently superior to the other.


Raikiri > Chidori inherently and due to the user were two of my main arguments.
Perhaps I should have made it clearer, but in my argument that "Raikiri > Chidori", I was never referring to, for example, Rikudo Sasuke's or kid Sasuke's being compared to a typical, standard Raikiri from Kakashi. In the image below, you'll see the standard/typical examples of the technique i was referring to.

*Quote*: "In short, we will disregard outliers and be looking at many normal/typical examples. (In the following images, none of the original dimensions have been altered.)"

*Spoiler*: __


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 11, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> i didn't. ur taking it out of context / you must not read my posting style. quote me





Mad Scientist said:


> I don't have an issue with Adult Sasuke's standard Chidori being subtly > WA Kakashi's standard Raikiri, just as how WA Kakashi's Raikiri is subtly > MS Sasuke's Chidori (in my view)...


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 11, 2019)

@Jackalinthebox
I can see why you'd take it that way, but sometimes when I use the phrase "just as how..." I can mean it somewhat abstractly. Even then, even subtle differences can themselves differ. Anyway, do you have something to say on topic or have any questions?


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 11, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Raikiri > Chidori inherently and due to the user were two of my main arguments.



Well for one, *it's not inherently better if it's just a nickname*.

Secondly the user argument isn't accurate either as Sasuke surpassed Kakashi's ability with the jutsu at some point.



> Perhaps I should have made it clearer, but in my argument that "Raikiri > Chidori", I was never referring to, for example, Rikudo Sasuke's or kid Sasuke's being compared to a typical, standard Raikiri from Kakashi. In the image below, you'll see the standard/typical examples of the technique i was referring to.



I understand the arugment. The point of those examples - Rinnegan Sasuke vs PT 1 Kakashi, illustrate that the naming convention has nothing to do with the jutsu potency. As a result any argument based on the *name* is flawed.


*



			Quote
		
Click to expand...

*


> : "In short, we will disregard outliers and be looking at many normal/typical examples. (In the following images, none of the original dimensions have been altered.)"
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Ok here's the deal - If Kakashi and Sauke both put the same chakra into the jutsu, with the same level of mastery and the same preparation, and attack the exact same target successfully - Chodori and Raikiri will have the *exact same results*.

If you want to argue that at different points in the story Kakashi was superior than Sasuke with the jutsu then sure. I believe they overlapped each other at some point in the contest for supreme mastery of Chidori.


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 11, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Yes. Though you wouldn't expect it to if it goes through the body and out. We saw Sasuke's Raiton paralyse Killer *Link Removed*, Kakashi's Lightning , Darui's lightning water ... Electricity travels dangerously fast and even in this short moment Bee was instantly electrocuted. As such, it is in my estimation that large animals with a nervous system would be paralysed too if Sasuke, for example, dug his Chidori into their flesh.


By jutsu I meant hell stab, chidori, and rainier.


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 11, 2019)

Raikiri I meant.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

It does give me solace when I check those who voted for Raikiri > Chidori and realize they are all known trolls tho

Outside of Mshad and troco theyre all kind of a mess of posters


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

So...The OP quotes me...And literally addresses NOTHING I said to him...And accuses me of wasting space in this thread

If it wasnt your thread Id tell you to get out



Mad Scientist said:


> Why do you keep stating the obvious and wasting space on my thread


I keep stating the obvious because this entire fucking thread was made by your biased brain to ARGUE AGAINST THE OBVIOUS

The obvious here is that Chidori = Raikiri

And I will continue to state it, and will continue to post every scan in the manga indicating just that 

And you all will continue to ignore it and post zero contradictory evidence because you have none

All you have done is argue Part 1 Kakashi > Part 1 Sasuke in physical attributes and moronically apply that to a difference between Chidori and Raikiri to somehow indicate Raikiris general superiority as a Base technique...Amd youre blind as fuck for doing so


Mad Scientist said:


> are you incapable of actually tackling the arguments made,


Are you fucking kidding me?

Dude


WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> No it isnt
> 
> ...


You addressed LITERALLY none of that

And you have the gall to sit behind "aRe YOu EvEV CapAbLE oF cOUntEring ARguMentS" 

Wow youre deluded as fuck


Mad Scientist said:


> It's incredibly ironic how you berate people for repeating things...


I berate people for repeating things Ive already addressed and debunked

YOU, as I just went over, havent addressed let alone debunked ANYTHING in my post

Learn what that means before you try to use it on other people


Mad Scientist said:


> Why would I want to appeal to popularity lol?


Because youre incapable of arguing anything by yourself and retaining any credibility so you want to get other people to do it for you

Its what an appeal to popularity is


Mad Scientist said:


> An overwhelming number of people think Minato under unfavourable conditions somehow magically keeps repeatedly tagging _and_ hurting the Fourth Raikage to the point of death


UNBELIEVABLY off topic

Derailing your own thread with nonsense...Nice

Regardless tho...

Sasukes chidori was capable of harming A4 through his shroud, Minatos Rasengan is much larger and much more powerful than NArutos Base Rasengan and Narutos rasengan = Sasukes chidori 

I honestly wouldnt find it hard to believe that Minato can accumulate damage on A4, meanwhile A4 is incapable of ever tagging Minato

He can also use SM to amp his attack if needed


Mad Scientist said:


> Did I argue for Minato?


I truly do not give a darn

Are you seriously trying to state simply because you disagreed with someone in the past that is evidence against you EVER ONCE IN YOUR LIFE appealing to popularity?

Do you have any idea how stupid that logic is?


Mad Scientist said:


> Heck, a startling number of people think _base_ Minato takes _Kisamehada_ on the _Pacific Ocean_ separated by _30 metres_. Good lord.


Probably because he blitzes him


Mad Scientist said:


> Okay now you are just either lying, trolling or _*heavily*_ misinformed.


No bud thats you

Cuz theres no explanation for how someone can read this manga, read all the evidence dumped in this thread by JUST ME personally let alone everyone else, and arrive at the conclusion that Raikiri and Chidori are any different

We are told FROM JUMP STREET they are the same technique and Chidori is its FORMAL designation and Raikiri is a NICKNAME 

THATS IS

They have the same hand seals, the same nature/shape manipulation, the same chakra expenditure, the same function in battle, the same size/physical appearance and the same sounds...I have provided LITERALLY A DOZEN OR MORE SCANS PROVING ALL OF THIS AND YOUVE ADDRESSED NONE OF IT

Aside from that, the only room one has to argue for one being better than the other is the individual ability of the USERS and their individual FEATS...Which is fallacious to apply that to a general level of superiority between either technique over the other.

Dude...Chidori has blown up METEORS, stalemated RIKUDO BIJU BOMBS cut JJs in half in a NERFED FORM, fucked up fused Otsutsukis...And even with all of that you dont fucking see me over here claiming Chidori > Raikiri...

Wanna know why?

Cuz those arent Chidoris feats...THEY ARE SASUKES

Be great if you could earn the difference and stop saying because Part 1 Kakashi is capable of lifting more weight than PArt 1 Sasuke or whatever, that suddenly means Raikiri is always and forever > CHidori

Reactions: Like 2


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## Speedyamell (Nov 12, 2019)

There's very few things more frustrating than arguing with someone who has confused themselves right from the basics..
@Mad Scientist you're putting too much stock in the fact that kakashi's jutsu is called "raikiri", while blatantly ignoring the fact that the raikiri name change wasn't because it's an advancement of chidori. But rather a "NICKNAME" given due to what was accomplished with the CHIDORI.
Remove the nickname, and all you have been saying in this thread is "Chidori is not Chidori" see how stupid that sounds?
If you calm yourself long enough, you'll realize that all you've really been doing is trying to argue how kakashi's "CHIDORI" is better than sasuke's.
And there's no problem with that. Eos naruto's rasengan is >>> P1 naruto's, but they are both still the exact same technique. And that wouldn't change even if one of them nicknamed theirs mountain buster because they busted a mountain with it..
It's clear at this point that you just want to make it seem kakashi's chidori is better than sasuke's. Make a thread about that and it's an actual debate. Instead of wasting time arguing sth that has already been clarified by the manga and using kakashi's chidori getting a nickname to justify your claims

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (Nov 12, 2019)

Chidori has too many useful variants, is less chakra taxing and still gets the job done(assassination). Raikiri can't compare to that if I'm being honest.



It is beyond Chidori which is why it's S rank. If I find the Chidori(A rank) databook entry once again I will post it.

Edit: forgot to mention Sasuke has the Uchiha powerful chakra, so his jutsu power would be stronger than what would normally be possible for the average Joe.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

@Mad Scientist 

Money where your mouth is time

I want you to create one single argument, JUST ONE, arguing for Raikiri being a different technique than Chidori using evidence from this manga that isnt based on individual performances.

So I dont wanna hear about "Oh but Kakashi is more experienced with it" or "Kakashi has better physical capability" or "something something bullshit about chakra control" or "Kakashi has more potent chakra than a 12 year old" as none of those types of arguments speak to a difference between CHIDORI and RAIKIRI

So Im asking you, in like...One paragraph so its short and to the point, *hit me up with something in this manga* indicating they are any different in any way aside from name. Give me one single instance of a character saying "Raikiri and Chidori differ in THIS way" or "Raikiri can do THIS and Chidori cant" etc

Oh and by the way, make sure when you formulate this argument it doesnt pertain to...

*Link Removed* *Link Removed* (as Chidori and Raikri use the same seals)  
*Link Removed* (as they are equal here as well)
*Link Removed* (as they are equal here too) 
Anything to do stupid fucking *Link Removed* (cuz its stated to not matter)

Cuz fun fact it cant be done or else youd have done so by now 

But ya know, fucking dazzle me


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> @Mad Scientist
> 
> Money where your mouth is time
> 
> ...


This request is open to literally anybody btw

Help your boy Mad scientist out

Cuz lord knows he aint making any sense on his own

Reactions: Like 1


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## Azula (Nov 12, 2019)

Jiraiya's senjutsu rasengan >>> MInato's rasengan > Base Naruto's rasengan.

Hell Stab >>> Raikiri > Chidori.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

Azula said:


> Jiraiya's senjutsu rasengan >>> MInato's rasengan > Base Naruto's rasengan


This is debatable

As Minato is stronger in general than even SM jiraiya, wouldnt be out of the question for a training wheel NE amp to not put Jiraiya ahead of Minato

Minatos base rasengans are also way bigger than either Narutos or Jiraiyas


Azula said:


> Raikiri > Chidori.


Nope


Azula said:


> Hell Stab >>> Raikiri = Chidori


FTFY

and @ bold, depends on what Hell Stab exactly

1 Finger obviously blows them out of the water, but Id say Chidori/Raikiri are equal to 4 fingered based on dialogue


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## Azula (Nov 12, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This is debatable
> 
> As Minato is stronger in general than even SM jiraiya, wouldnt be out of the question for a training wheel NE amp to not put Jiraiya ahead of Minato
> 
> Minatos base rasengans are also way bigger than either Narutos or Jiraiyas



I am refering to the giant one he used against pain. That is very clearly stronger than Minato's. Rasengan is easy to distinguish in strength because of their size.



WorldsStrongest said:


> 1 Finger obviously blows them out of the water, but Id say Chidori/Raikiri are equal to 4 fingered based on dialogue



Even 4 finger should be stronger than both Sasuke and Kakashi's because A3 has more chakra than either. Same goes for Sasuke and Kakashi. They both can't have the exact same chakra especially in P1.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

Azula said:


> I am refering to the giant one he used against pain.


Well thats a COR

Not Rasengan

But regardless my b then, thats obviously much stronger


Azula said:


> Even 4 finger should be stronger than both Sasuke and Kakashi's because A3 has more chakra than either


Thats a weird argument tho

Someones Jutsu isnt stronger than anyone sleses simply due to having larger reserves

If that was the case than Part 1 Narutos Rasengan would be stronger than SM Jiraiyas...And we know thats bullshit


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## Architect (Nov 12, 2019)

@Mad Scientist 
Haven't read thoroughly through OP or thread, but I think you left out this

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

Architect said:


> Haven't read thoroughly through OP or thread, but I think you left out this



Obvious hyperbole
The exact same shit is said about Chidori

Gai: "The Name is CHIDORI...Its secrets lie in the nearly impossible speed of its stroke and the immense chakra focused inthe arm *Link Removed*

Wanna know another reason why "cut through anything" applies to Chidori?

Cuz when one talks about Raikiri, they are also talking about Chidori  

Thats what "synonymous" means


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## Architect (Nov 12, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Obvious hyperbole
> The exact same shit is said about Chidori
> Gai: "The Name is CHIDORI...Its secrets lie in the nearly impossible speed of its stroke and the immense chakra focused inthe arm *Link Removed*
> 
> ...


believe whatever you want dude

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

Architect said:


> believe whatever you want dude


Thats a direct statement from the manga dude

Be asspained about it all you want but Kakashi doesnt have some special snowflake Jutsu separate from Chidori

He just has Chidori

He himself states this....Several times...

Reactions: Like 3


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## Architect (Nov 12, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats a direct statement from the manga dude
> 
> Be *asspained* about it all you want but Kakashi doesnt have some special snowflake Jutsu separate from Chidori
> 
> ...



I realize you've got a butthurt and want to tell others about it or maybe to project it on others because you don't want to suffer alone but I can clearly see it myself and not interested anyway


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

Architect said:


> I realize you've got a butthurt and want to tell others about it or maybe to project it on others because you don't want to suffer alone but I can clearly see it myself and not interested anyway


Concession accepted then kiddo


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## dergeist (Nov 12, 2019)

Architect said:


> I realize you've got a butthurt and want to tell others about it or maybe to project it on others because you don't want to suffer alone but I can clearly see it myself and not interested anyway



His go to move, lol.


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## ShinAkuma (Nov 12, 2019)

dergeist said:


> His go to move, lol.



It's a strong anti wank move.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

People who bitch about their internet points are so cute


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

dergeist said:


> His go to move, lol.


I neg people who say stupid shit and try to pass it off as fact

Improve yourself and you get to keep your internet points kiddo 

Apparently they mean a great deal to you and @Architect

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Nov 12, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Concession accepted then kiddo


accept the butthurt as a part of current you lol


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

Architect said:


> accept the butthurt as part of current you lol


This isnt even english

Good chat tho kiddo

Hmu again when you can actually argue for Kakashi without ignoring the manga and making things up out of sheer bias


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## dergeist (Nov 12, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I neg people who say stupid shit and try to pass it off as fact
> 
> Improve yourself and you get to keep your internet points kiddo
> 
> Apparently they mean a great deal to you and @Architect



Nah, you neg people after your handed an L. Purely for trying to push head canon as fact. Not that I care, but it was funny to see how unstable you actually are.

Perhaps, a name change is in order from Worlds strongest, to Worlds Triggered, no? 

Any how I've no intention of hijacking @Mad Scientist thread so I'm out.


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## Architect (Nov 12, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> *This isnt even english*
> 
> Good chat tho kiddo
> 
> Hmu again when you can actually argue for Kakashi without ignoring the manga and making things up out of sheer bias


*kay*
my only dream is to have debates with people here again and again especially with such a clown pretending to be serious, yup


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2019)

Architect said:


> *kay*
> my only dream is to have debates with people here again and again especially with such a clown pretending to be serious, yup





WorldsStrongest said:


> Good chat tho kiddo
> 
> Hmu again when you can actually argue for Kakashi without ignoring the manga and making things up out of sheer bias





dergeist said:


> Nah, you neg people after your handed an L


I dont get handed Ls from people like you or architect or mad scientist who cant even tell their ass from a manga panel they are so deluded and utterly uniformed on the basics

You tried your hand at debating me earlier this week and you got rocked

Couldnt even come up with an answer to one simple question I posed to you (which I asked you to answer multiple times and was ignored each time) and dipped


dergeist said:


> Purely for trying to push head canon as fact.


Funny cuz thats what you were doing the last time we had a chat

Never backed anything you said either

Also

> States Im trying to push headcanon as fact
> There hasnt been a single point in this entire thread where I havent posted at least 1 scan for evidence to back it

But sure man

"Headcanon"

People who dont know how to debate are hilarious


dergeist said:


> it was funny to see how unstable you actually are.


I love how deluded people who get their panties in a bunch about internet points look at ME like Im the crazy one

Like...Thats some grade A delusion right there


dergeist said:


> Perhaps, a name change is in order from Worlds strongest, to Worlds Triggered


Ah yes of course

Now we devolve into insulting my scree name...Oh the fucking humanity 

And this kid suggested I was unstable? Meanwhile hes bitching about internet poiunts and screen names like some kind fo moral authority? 

Anyway...Nah "Worlds Triggered" doesnt have nearly as good of a ring to it

Nor is it a reference like my current name is


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## Speedyamell (Nov 12, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> There's very few things more frustrating than arguing with someone who has confused themselves right from the basics..
> @Mad Scientist you're putting too much stock in the fact that kakashi's jutsu is called "raikiri", while blatantly ignoring the fact that the raikiri name change wasn't because it's an advancement of chidori. But rather a "NICKNAME" given due to what was accomplished with the CHIDORI.
> Remove the nickname, and all you have been saying in this thread is "Chidori is not Chidori" see how stupid that sounds?
> If you calm yourself long enough, you'll realize that all you've really been doing is trying to argue how kakashi's "CHIDORI" is better than sasuke's.
> ...


My boy couldn't do shit but go for underground negging and commentary. 

We both know the end point of your argument is to show that kakashi's raikiri is > sasuke's chidori.
And that's not a bad thing. But raikiri isn't a different technique. It is chidori with a fancier nickname. If only you had the balls admit it


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 12, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> My boy couldn't do shit but go for underground negging and commentary.
> 
> We both know the end point of your argument is to show that kakashi's raikiri is > sasuke's chidori.
> And that's not a bad thing. But raikiri isn't a different technique. It is chidori with a fancier nickname. If only you had the balls admit it



Literally one of the first things I posted was that they're fundamentally the same jutsu. This has been noted numerous times. Why are you repeating this......

I will be debunking WorldsWrongest's BS soon. Stay tuned.


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## Speedyamell (Nov 12, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Literally one of the first things I posted was that they're fundamentally the same jutsu. This has been noted numerous times. Why are you repeating this......
> 
> I will be debunking WorldsWrongest's BS soon. Stay tuned.


And it's still hard for you to properly admit it.
No need to add "fundamentally". They ARE simply the same jutsu.
Both bos Sakura and tsunade use the same jutsu - CES. Because tsunade's is better or more refined doesn't change the fact that they are still the same jutsu.
That's what I want you to admit

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Nov 12, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Stay tuned.


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## Tri (Nov 12, 2019)

They’re the same thing, your post is basically just semantics and comparing the users instead of the actual technique.

Reactions: Like 7


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 12, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Fun fact buddy boy
> Raikiri isnt what it was called when it cut the lightning
> CHIDORI WAS
> CHIDORI is what the feat of cutting the lighning comes from
> So, if you insist on differentiating them, you could at least get your facts straight


Wow... I knew your logic was bad, but not _this_ bad! *Why on Earth would Chidori be called a nickname that was never given to it at the time?* Raikiri is Kakashi's honed version of Chidori; it is explicitly _stated_ that it's a nickname given _after_ the legendary event.



WorldsStrongest said:


> He states he can handle up to A ranked Jutsu and then he runs into a wall


When did Kakashi state he can only "handle up to A-ranked jutsu"?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sound effects?
> Really?
> Fucking sound effects?


Are you actually naive? SFX are a large component of the manga. They're in _every_ chapter and often cover huge portions of pages etc., and help the reader to understand the energy, aesthetic and power of an attack or movement. It helps us sometimes _differentiate_ between attacks/movements that perhaps aren't immediately obvious. The author has paid very careful attention to detail in establishing that early adopters of Chidori overwhelmingly exhibit the _Chirp_ SFX (with explainable outliers/exceptions) whereas seasoned users of the technique (last-fight Sasuke, Adult Kakashi) next to 100% (if not 100%) exhibit electrical sounds effects.



WorldsStrongest said:


> So...The OP quotes me...And literally addresses NOTHING I said to him...And accuses me of wasting space in this thread


Oh, the amount of unnecessary repetitions you used to make your post look better is disgraceful. Incessantly repeating yourself despite berating other users for the same thing (this, you repeat too. It's almost as if _you're_ the one who's repeating shit. Crazy idea, right?)



WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> Kishimoto from the second they 2 were introduced in the manga straight up says, VERBATIM
> "Chidori, ALSO KNOWN AS RAIKIRI"
> They are introduced as one on the same
> ...


Chidori _is_ also known as Raikiri, but they're not exactly the same when it comes to jutsu output. From looking at the following comparisons, it's clear that Raikiri > Chidori. 


Raikiri is stated to be a technique honed to perfection. Compared to Chidori, A) its piercing power is depicted as stronger, B) its chakra volume as larger, C) its speed swifter, and to top it off, D) it is denoted a rank higher (and why not? A, B, and C suggest by all means that it _should_ be a rank higher.) The idea of it being honed to perfection is further accentuated in the manga:

Early adopters such as kid Kakashi, kid Sasuke and still teen Sasuke (bar outliers etc.) all have 90% of the time or so _Chirp_ , whereas 100% of the time Raikiri is used, it has electricity . This suggests an evolution of the jutsu. The small 10% of times Chidori has been shown to have electric SFX, there is a common theme running among them. For instance, most if not all of CS2 teen Sasuke's Chidori don't have C_hirp_ SFX. Ask yourself, why is that? What does that have in common to when Kakashi's made the electric SFX? Ask yourself, why does kid Kakashi's Chidori largely, like Sasuke, have _Chirp_ SFX even though we know that 100% of Kakashi's Raikiri has had electric SFX throughout the entire manga? If the difference in SFX were solely due to the user in maintaining that consistency, then by all means, most of kid Kakashi's Chidori SFX should have had electricity SFX. But they don't. 
In the manga, Gai describes the nickname, "Raikiri" (aka Lightning Blade). But as he does, it is from the perspective of his reference point — his memories of Kakashi's Raikiri/Chidori usage (note how Gai looks up at Kakashi). Gai describes the impossible speed (C) and immense chakra of the jutsu (B); preceding this is the mentioned example of _Kakashi_ slicing lightning. To contrast this with Chidori... Chidori isn't portrayed as having as much chakra emission (i.e. not B) as Raikiri, nor is its speed depicted on the same level (i.e. not C). If you don't buy into this simple reference point idea, consider this... When A claimed he was the fastest man since the Fourth's death, was he correct? Hell no. Unbeknown to him, Gai at the time he stated this was faster than him. So was A just speaking BS? Again, no. He was only speaking from what he knew to presumably be true to him at the time. And if you _still_ don't buy this argument, consider this... Why would Gai describe Chidori's stroke speed as of impossible levels while having _kid Sasuke_ as his reference point? Yes, it is true Gai was surprised that Sasuke could learn the jutsu and it is true that Sakura could see the *Link Removed*, however, these two are trivial points since we already know Chidori exhibits a large amount of chakra and we already know Uchiha skills are exemplary; P1 Kakashi is _much_ faster than CE Sasuke, so, if anything, it should be (Kakashi's) Raikiri that is the reference point from which Gai describes "Chidori". In short, Gai's description largely is in truth describing his memories of Kakashi's use of Raikiri, not Sasuke's current use of Chidori, again indicating a degree of progress that had to have occurred (Kakashi had Chidori/Raikiri for 18+ years.)
BoS Sasuke faces a distinction too. He cut the hand seals down to 0, indicating a certain level of mastery over the technique. Whilst reducing the hand seals may instead simply indicate that he's refined his chakra moulding and/or control in general, and thus not the proficiency with which the technique is used itself, it should be emphasised that hand seals are specific to a jutsu; even Itachi used hand seals for certain jutsu and he is much more proficient in chakra formation and manipulation than P1 Sasuke. This difference in association would explain why casters still required *Link Removed* *Link Removed* for certain jutsu, and why this number can decrease with their proficiency and/or overall power *Link Removed*. In short, the idea of honing the technique is reinforced by Sasuke too.
More evidence of progression of honing the technique... *Link Removed* to *Link Removed* why *Link Removed* of a *Link Removed* Sasuke's Chidori _*only now*_ have the electricity SFX despite 95% (excluding outliers/explainable instances) of his being  before?



> No
> He introduces them as synonymous Jutsu, and they do the exact same thing, and at no point in this manga is there ever any voiced or shown difference made between either Jutsu


He describes them with a clear difference in portrayal . If you want shown differences, here you go.




​


> Even kakashi uses them interchangeably


"Uses them interchangeably" - like once or twice? And only during the context of teaching? The Databook certainly suggests Raikiri is superior, and the huge consistent difference in SFX in the manga suggest a distinction between early adopters and those who have honed it to perfection. Also re-read point (1) and (4) above.



> You have no evidence for this claim whatsoever as there is none to be found in the manga
> 
> The only argument for "potency of Raikiri" being above Chidori would be to distinguish between Kakashi and Sasuke as individuals, in which case, yes, there is a point in the story where Kakashis Chidori hits harder than Sasukes (see what I did there?) but that has nothing to do with what fucking name is attached to it...It has to do with the fact kakashi is a 30 year old man and a veteran with the technique and Sasuke was a 12 year old who learned it yesterday


Plenty of differences noted above. 



> Yes actually they have
> The second we saw them in fact
> When Gai said "AKA" he was doing EXACTLY THIS
> *Link Removed*
> ...


Still didn't refute my point. No one said Raikiri's only difference was the nickname. Show me one statement which reads "The only difference between Raikiri and Chidori is the nickname." We have the DB outright depicting the disparity in power.



> Minus Gai, and Kakashi, and Sasuke


Why are you repeating yourself incessantly? You literally made this point just above. 



> Nope
> They are the same, and stated to be the same by legit everyone who ever talks about both of them
> Tell you what?
> You find even ONE SYLLABLE in this manga even remotely implying Raikiri is "more refined" in ANY WAY and we'll call it my mistake
> ...


Why would I restrict secondary canonical sources which align with the manga's depiction of *Link Removed* and common sense (i.e. Kakashi had numerous years to hone it which is reflected in the DB )?



> And youre ignoring all of that in favor of literally nothing but personal conjecture at best
> 
> None of this?
> 
> ...


It's beyond obvious that I'm referring to Kakashi's Raikiri. Who else uses "Raikiri"? If I were to refer to Daikodan, everyone would know I'd be referring to Kisame's Daikodan. If I were to refer to Chidori, most people would assume that I'd be referring Sasuke's Chidori. If I were to refer to 8 Gates, despite it being used by Dai, everyone would know I am referring to Gai. My argument is that, say, BoS Kakashi's honing of the technique means that his Raikiri is an enhanced version of Chidori, and that this makes it inherently stronger than, say, BoS Sasuke's. I outlined several factors that went into this enhancement and they're all common sense and align with canon. 



> You are NOT about to make a fucking reserves based argument for KAKASHIS favor here are you
> 
> Already disproved this bullshit with testimony from the man himself anyway
> 
> ...


Quote me the exact speech bubble(s) which say "Raikiri and Chidori chakra expenditures are equal," or something extremely close to that. If you can't, then explain the text you _are_ referring to. Keep in mind this... let's say, for argument's sake, that Chidori is a 0.9 in chakra cost and Raikiri is a 1. Let's say Kakashi's limit is 4 Chidori/Raikiri. Here, Kakashi can still only use 4 Chidori (3.6 cost) or Raikiri (4 cost).



> You dont wanna go here to argue for Raikiris superiority either bud
> This is, again, NOT a technical difference but an INDIVIDUAL one, and one where Kakashi ALSO gets shat on Post Timeskip
> Sasukes chakra control is hilariously better even during his Pre MS development, *Link Removed* *Link Removed*
> What does Kakashi have on that level?
> ...


In my initial analysis and responses, nowhere have I compared the power of Raikiri to a Chidori from Rinnegan etc., Sasuke, so that's irrelevant, in the same way I wouldn't compare it to kid Sasuke's (aside from SFX differences, as that deals with something a little different). The only time I have brought further versions of Sasuke into consideration was A) to note how a jutsu's rank for a caster can be considered higher for them if their level is accordingly higher (read Paralysis Technique DB) and B) to bring up new evidence on SFX which, with all the other evidence (DB Raikiri vs Chidori, SFX consistent differences and explainable outliers [which adds to the idea of intensity fluctuations], appearance, manga statements, retained distinctions) completely cements the idea that Chidori can be honed. 



> Which again, is individual skill
> Not a difference in the Jutsu themselves
> And is a skill Kakashi false behind in VERY EARLY


Why would I _not _be referring to Kakashi's skill behind Raikiri? When I say there's an inherent different, I mean it - but of course it's due to the caster.......



> Youre trying, and failing miserably btw, to advocate that "Raikiri>Chidori" meanwhile what youre ACTUALLY advocating for is "Kakashis physical attributes > PART 1 SASUKES, therefore Raikiri > Chidori"
> 
> Which...Yeah no shit?
> 
> But spinning that as a way to prove Raikiris superiority to Chidori IN GENERAL is dishonest as fuck...And what youve spent the entire thread doing


It's not dishonest; you've simply not understood my premise in the first place. Raikiri > Chidori is obviously a reference to Kakashi's Raikiri > Sasuke's Chidori (a point I've noted above). 



> This is now you suggesting because Sasuke literally DEVELOPED CHIDORI MORE THAN KAKASHI DID thats somehow a point AGAINST Sasukes use of it


I didn't say it's a point against Sasuke's use of it (LOL). He simply focused on divergence (i.e. utility) - nothing wrong with that. His training speaks to his honing of Chidori too. Simple stuff. Doesn't mean he honed it on Kakashi's level though. Evidence for that is above.



> Deidara himself states that Sasukes use of Eiso is worth praising over Kakashis basic Raikiri and gives him props for doing what kakashi didnt or couldnt


Sadly your logic is folly.
A) Deidara did not praise Sasuke for something Kakashi didn't/couldn't do (i.e. he didn't say, "Wow, even Kakashi couldn't do that!" - he praised him for something Sasuke _did_ do. 
B) If anything, Deidara's knowledge of the famed jutsu and mention of _Kakashi_ speaks to Kakashi's/Raikiri's portrayal. 



> He did tho


Is that why he had an S-rank jutsu at the time...? He himself wasn't trying to reach Rasenshuriken so obviously your statement that he thought "the idea of an _S-ranked jutsu_ is potentially unobtainable to him," is completely baseless.



WorldsStrongest said:


> It does tho
> Thats what "also known as" does
> Watch
> Your username is "Mad Scientist" but do I fundamentally change something about who you are or how you operate if I say "Youre also known as "Insane Researcher" ?


Yes, Mad Scientist = Hououin Kyouma and "Insane Researcher" is a huge understatement. Anyway, I didn't say Raikiri and Chidori are fundamentally different (said the opposite in fact); they operate in the same way - just not in the *exact* same way - see what I did there?



> Which is literally them telling you aside from the name, there isnt a difference


No it's not literally saying that........
A) Kakashi's Chidori may in fact be called Raikiri, but there could be more to it. What you're doing is saying this suggests a totality or an absolute conclusion - based on the evidence, it doesn't.
B) From the same Databook collection which houses Chidori, Raikiri has clear differences. 



> Raikiri doesnt even have its own entry in those DBs ffs


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 12, 2019)

> THATS EVERY TECHNIQUE IN THE SERIES BUD
> 
> AND THATS ALSO INDIVIDUAL ABILITY AGAIN


So? Helps explain why Raikiri (Kakashi's, _obviously_) can be higher ranked than Chidori (from Sasuke).



> Why bother debunking this argument when you literally just stated in your own words it has no merit and is just remarkably inconsistent


Many of Kakashi's Raikiri's are big, many of Sasuke's Chidori are not as big. 100% of Raikiri have electricity SFX, 95% of early adopters of Chidori use the _Chirp_ SFX, exceptions/outliers actually have a good explanation that _adds_ to the idea of _why_ Raikiri consistently makes the electricity SFX, and it's to do with intensity, which is again tied to the idea that casters well-equipped to execute a certain jutsu, such as due to the honing for perfection, would have a more powerful output and execution.



> Sound effects?
> THATS what your argument is based on now?
> Semantics strike again
> But hey lets follow this line of thinking through a bit more
> How do you know that Raikiris differing sound effects arent a point toward its INFERIORITY? How do you know the bird chirping isnt indicative of it being more powerful?


Read above.



> Gai is the one who states that the chirping sound only occurs when your phsyical capabilities with teh Jutsu are high enough, so how do you know Kakashi as an adult just isnt garbage at it now?


Two possible explanations.
A) Recall that his mention of the sound was in the previous page where he first saw Sasuke use it. At this point, his frame of reference may well have been Sasuke, rather than his memory of Kakashi's Raikiri/Chidori usage.
B) What he's saying _is_ the truth. _He_ hears or was hearing _chirping_ sounds.
C) Even if (A) or (B) is not the case, what he's saying could be true in his memory of Kakashi's usage of Chidori. 



> *Link Removed* *Link Removed* of Sasuke *Link Removed* *Link Removed*...*Link Removed* times...Loads of different sounds...


Some of those are examples that fall outside the sample space of examples that I had discussed. Why are you comparing Kirin to Chidori, for example...? CS2 is more intense, that explains why largely it shifts from chirping to electricity sounds. The other examples are either initiations or are transmissions into variant Chidori jutsu. These examples are overwhelmingly overshadowed by the consistency with which Kishimoto applies _Chirping_ SFX to all the other times. There's also last-fight Sasuke's example to be considered - his absence of chirping sounds goes hand-in-hand with what I've been saying all along, that there's an evolution/mastery/honing-to-perfection of the jutsu. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> I know I already brought this up in the other thread to you, but Im just doing it again here for those who may not have participated in the other thread
> 
> 
> Chidori/Raikiri can be performed using the exact same hand seals, even with the skill disparity between Part 1 Sasuke and Kakashi
> ...


Hand seals help mould/control chakra. P1 Kakashi was rusty. This is not a valid indication of the power of the technique, especially in light of all the evidence for the motion.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasukes chidori was capable of harming A4 through his shroud, Minatos Rasengan is much larger and much more powerful than NArutos Base Rasengan and Narutos rasengan = Sasukes chidori


Haha. Are you serious? FKS Sasuke's _*chakra-enhanced*__* Chidori which narrowly pierced *__*V*_*1 A* (and it's _designed to pierce_) somehow magically means base Minato's Rasengan which wasn't even that big against Tobi is somehow going to damage Raikage A all that much? Funny. Besides dodges the question of why base Minato doesn't get his face punched in at the start of the match (stipulation was manga knowledge).

*Spoiler*: _Minato's Rasengan is more impressive than this. Haha._ 












WorldsStrongest said:


> This logic makes literally no sense as nothing stops Chidori from doing the exact same thing
> 
> Kakashi also flat out states their chakra expenditures are equal
> 
> So youre wrong regardless


No. Raikiri is a technique whereby Kakashi _can_ output and concentrate more chakra into it (as seen in many visual examples) _because_ he's honed it to perfection and is so skilled in using it. Keep in mind we are comparing all standard/typical uses, not outliers such as when Sasuke used a chakra-enhanced Chidori against the Raikage, or Rinnegan Sasuke, kid Sasuke etc., when taking into account the visual disparities.



WorldsStrongest said:


> It does give me solace when I check those who voted for Raikiri > Chidori and realize they are all known trolls tho
> 
> Outside of Mshad and troco theyre all kind of a mess of posters


A worthless and unnecessary opinion that you contradict yourself. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> I keep stating the obvious because this entire fucking thread was made by your biased brain to ARGUE AGAINST THE OBVIOUS
> The obvious here is that Chidori = Raikiri
> And I will continue to state it, and will continue to post every scan in the manga indicating just that
> And you all will continue to ignore it and post zero contradictory evidence because you have none


Repeating yourself won't make your points stronger.



WorldsStrongest said:


> All you have done is argue Part 1 Kakashi > Part 1 Sasuke in physical attributes and moronically apply that to a difference between Chidori and Raikiri to somehow indicate Raikiris general superiority as a Base technique...Amd youre blind as fuck for doing so


Look at the images. Then look five more times. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Are you fucking kidding me?
> 
> Dude


Oh, no! Considering the number of repetitions you've made and useless points, I _wouldn't_ be kidding when I ask if you are incapable of actual debate...!



Useless Garbage said:


> You addressed LITERALLY none of that
> 
> And you have the gall to sit behind "aRe YOu EvEV CapAbLE oF cOUntEring ARguMentS"
> 
> ...





> I honestly wouldnt find it hard to believe that Minato can accumulate damage on A4, meanwhile A4 is incapable of ever tagging Minato
> 
> He can also use SM to amp his attack if needed
> 
> ...


I don't appeal to popularity. End of story. Next time, excrete your BS accusations where they belong. Don't post irrelevant details on my threads.



Speedyamell said:


> And there's no problem with that. Eos naruto's rasengan is >>> P1 naruto's, but they are both still the exact same technique.


P1 Kakashi's Raikiri > BoS Sasuke's Chidori, but they are both still the exact same technique. And there's no problem with that... See what I did there? 



WorldsStrongest said:


> @Mad Scientist
> 
> Money where your mouth is time
> 
> ...


Addressed.



WorldsStrongest said:


> This request is open to literally anybody btw
> 
> Help your boy Mad scientist out
> 
> Cuz lord knows he aint making any sense on his own





WorldsStrongest said:


> Obvious hyperbole
> The exact same shit is said about Chidori
> 
> Gai: "The Name is CHIDORI...Its secrets lie in the nearly impossible speed of its stroke and the immense chakra focused inthe arm *Link Removed*
> ...


Addressed.



ShinAkuma said:


> It's a strong anti wank move.


That hypocrite insults others for showing concern over their reputation points, yet goes out of his way to neg multiple _posters_ multiple _times_ and then goes something like "Oh, they're just _internet points_...!" In other words, this is his face below.

*Spoiler*: __ 











WorldsStrongest said:


> I dont get handed Ls from people like you or architect or mad scientist who cant even tell their ass from a manga panel they are so deluded and utterly uniformed on the basics


Don't talk about basics when you have no debating manners and regularly post asinine opinions such as Hebi Sasuke being as fast as 7G Gai.




Speedyamell said:


> They ARE simply the same jutsu.
> Both bos Sakura and tsunade use the same jutsu - CES. Because tsunade's is better or more refined doesn't change the fact that they are still the same jutsu.


That's what I'm saying: "Because [Kakashi's] is better or more refined doesn't change the fact that they are still the same jutsu." See what I did there?



Tri said:


> They’re the same thing, your post is basically just semantics and comparing the users instead of the actual technique.


You've provided no evidence to back up your claim.


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## Cognitios (Nov 12, 2019)

@Mad Scientist I love you


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 13, 2019)

i should do a _once-and-for-all:_
_'' theres only ever been 1 sword of kusanagi/sasuke is very proud of his rai'ton equips''_


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## Speedyamell (Nov 13, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> P1 Kakashi's Raikiri > BoS Sasuke's Chidori, but they are both still the exact same technique. And there's no problem with that... See what I did there?


So are you finally admitting that all you really wanted to do was prove kakashi's raikiri is > sasuke's chidori?
but that they are still the same technique?


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 13, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> So are you finally admitting that all you really wanted to do was prove kakashi's raikiri is > sasuke's chidori?
> but that they are still the same technique?


They're the same technique insofar as how the jutsu is created and executed, but not in the subtle differences caused by a seasoned user of the technique (such as last-fight Sasuke, adult Kakashi). They _make_ the technique different. And if you're going to object with "well that's not Raikiri > Chidori then," remember that the power differences I'm comparing were not from Rinnengan etc. Sasuke, but from before then (excluding kid Sasuke).

So yes, "all you really wanted to do was prove kakashi's raikiri is > sasuke's chidori?". Raikiri > Chidori. Who else is Raikiri mainly associated with? Who is Chidori mainly remembered for? Of course I'm referring to Kakashi's Raikiri vs Sasuke's Chidori - that's implicitly obvious.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 13, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> That's clearly an outlier which is why it's in none of the comparison-based images.


Clearly an outlier? Or simply that people can put more or less chakra into a jutsu by choice like we have been told and shown before?


Mad Scientist said:


> Sasuke knew the Raikage was durable so he obviously wanted to pierce him with a chakra-enhanced Chidori.


This kinda stuff is why people feel like you make things up sometimes btw. 

You have 0 proof Sasuke knew anything about any of the Kage. The first person to actually land a hit that we saw was Sasuke himself.


Mad Scientist said:


> Ask yourself why do we basically never see him do that again with a standard Chidori?


Because Kishimoto doesn't measure every jutsu he draws nor would he have time for shit like that.
He wanted it to look epic so he drew it crazy.

What you're doing is like assuming Rasengan is different based on the number of swirls drawn inside. 


Mad Scientist said:


> What are you trying to imply by suggesting MS Sasuke's Chidori is more potent than CS2 Sasuke's?


That assuming a Sasuke that has vastly better chakra and feats of chakra control than Kakashi somehow has a weaker Chidori than Kakashi's is pretty backward.


Mad Scientist said:


> The time goes hand-in-hand with the DB's statement conveying he mastered it. Chidori clearly has a less boisterous portrayal by comparison. Your Naruto example is moot; I didn't just say it was how long someone had a jutsu for, but what they did with that time.


Yes but the implication that it changes much in getting famous is extremely flawed.
More people knowing about a jutsu over time has nothing to do with its power improving either.

Kakashi himself got better but that's not saying the jutsu changes at all. That's just an assumption.

We have no hard evidence of any of that stuff, just your conjecture added to vagaries.


Mad Scientist said:


> I may be willing to concede on the contention with the premise, but what you should note is that when I mention Raikiri it is with consideration that it's (for example take their BoS versions) _Kakashi's_ "Raikiri" which is stronger than (Sasuke's) Chidori. I mean, the difference in the DB is quite stark. If I were to mention Daikodan, everyone'd know I would be referring to _Kisame's_ Daikodan.


It's not quite stark at all. 

They don't say one is better they talk about what Kakashi has done with it but still tell us it's the same jutsu. 
Kakashi gaining fame using a jutsu or having more feats with a jutsu dont change the fact thang it's just the same jutsu used at different levels at different points.

It's like making a thread to say Itachi's Grand Fireball > 7 year old Sasuke's grand fireball. Its obviously not because of the jutsu itself because it's the same jutsu. Just used by a better opponent. 

If you said "Sasuke's Chidori is worse than Kakashi's Chidori, which is nicknamed Raikiri, when he first learns it" you would have a point but it doesn't sound like that all you meant

And of that's what you actually meant your title and OP are both phrased in such a misleading AF manner that saying you are just trying to compare the jutsu between specific points in time seems like massive goal post shifting, but sure. Now I see why you have to spend so much time accusing people of strawmaning you, at least.


Both Deidara and A4 see the jutsu from Sasuke and recognize it as Raikiri so obviously Kishimoto doesn't give a darn about what ever art changes you can point out. The characters in the show clearly dont think there's any important audio or visual differences, so there isnt.

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 13, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Clearly an outlier? Or simply that people can put more or less chakra into a jutsu by choice like we have been told and shown before?


If Raikiri were to be amped by that same amount, it would still be stronger due to reasons stated in OP and other posts. 




Hi no Ishi said:


> This kinda stuff is why people feel like you make things up sometimes btw.
> 
> You have 0 proof Sasuke knew anything about any of the Kage. The first person to actually land a hit that we saw was Sasuke himself.


Are you serious? This is the _one_ instance where Chidori/Raikiri from a user looks purposefully huge (bar Susano'o Chidoris etc.) Why? Because he _knew_ the Raikage looked durable as hell and is covered in a Raiton manifestation of chakra, so _*obviously*_ he would try a little harder. Kishimoto would reflect both this and Sasuke's intelligence in his response, in his manga. Sigh...




Hi no Ishi said:


> He wanted it to look epic so he drew it crazy.


Haha. Chidori and Raikiri (outside of Susano'o etc.) had numerous other epic moments, if not more epic. He never made them look crazy like that (outside of similar circumstances where the intensity factor was _also_ involved - in some of those scenes, they weren't even as epic either). Also consider the shift in SFX on that set of pages; Kishimoto was clearly concerned with the accuracy of the scene as a whole.



Hi no Ishi said:


> What you're doing is like assuming Rasengan is different based on the number of swirls drawn inside.


Wrong again. If I were to have done what you just suggested right now, I would have examined every single electrical spark and more. What I actually did was examine the size differences (which wasn't all that difficult - for the most part, you simply use your eyes.) 



Hi no Ishi said:


> That assuming a Sasuke that has vastly better chakra and feats of chakra control than Kakashi somehow has a weaker Chidori than Kakashi's is pretty backward.


Him having more chakra is completely irrelevant. Clearly you haven't understood what I've been arguing for. And it's not backward. What's backward is, given all the evidence (clear shift in SFX for early adopters [kid Sasuke, kid Kakashi, teen Sasuke] vs seasoned users [last-fight Sasuke, adult Kakashi], Databook outright explicit statement, Databook blatant difference in portrayal, common sense in that Kakashi had Raikiri for much longer than Sasuke, fact that jutsu level can vary greatly depending on the caster, and indicative evidence in that Sasuke _clearly_ focused more on divergence/utility than convergence/one technique), you still claim, without much valid counter-evidence, if at all, that MS Sasuke's standard Chidori is stronger than a standard Raikiri from adult Kakashi.




Hi no Ishi said:


> Yes but the implication that it changes much in getting famous is extremely flawed.
> More people knowing about a jutsu over time has nothing to do with its power improving either.


That's not entirely accurate. More people knowing about a jutsu could easily be due to that jutsu being used more and more. 




Hi no Ishi said:


> Kakashi himself got better but that's not saying the jutsu changes at all. That's just an assumption.
> 
> We have no hard evidence of any of that stuff, just your conjecture added to vagaries.


Yes we do have hard evidence.

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Databook hard evidence*


 

*Visual Hard Evidence*
 




*Shift in SFX hard evidence (showing all early adopters of Chidori exhibit chirp SFX 100% of the time [outside of explainable exceptions/outliers which actually adds to the idea there's an evolution of the jutsu], and all seasoned users of Chidori exhibit electricity SFX 100% of the time)*


*Link Removed* 
*Link Removed* 
*Link Removed* 
*Link Removed* 
*Link Removed* 







Hi no Ishi said:


> It's not quite stark at all.
> 
> They don't say one is better they talk about what Kakashi has done with it but still tell us it's the same jutsu.


Nope. 

It's literally stated that the technique (_"it"_) is perfected by having it honed to the limit. There's a clear difference in  between the two; Kishimoto's intention was to establish Raikiri as superior to Chidori, whilst simultaneously having them established as still the same jutsu, which doesn't contradict anything.




Hi no Ishi said:


> Kakashi gaining fame using a jutsu or having more feats with a jutsu dont change the fact thang it's just the same jutsu used at different levels at different points.


It's the same jutsu insofar as how the jutsu is created and executed, but not in the subtle differences caused by a seasoned user of the technique (such as last-fight Sasuke, adult Kakashi). They _make_ the technique different. And if you're going to object with "well that's not Raikiri > Chidori then," remember that the power differences I'm comparing were not from Rinnengan etc. Sasuke, but from before then (excluding kid Sasuke).




Hi no Ishi said:


> It's like making a thread to say Itachi's Grand Fireball > 7 year old Sasuke's grand fireball. Its obviously not because of the jutsu itself because it's the same jutsu. Just used by a better opponent.


I never compared adult Kakashi's Raikiri power to kid Sasuke's Chidori though. I understand your analogy, however, the evidence is there to clearly depict Raikiri as the superior even in regards to BoS+ Sasuke's Chidori, for example, which is what I've been comparing all along. Look at the images on the OP. Read my paragraph above too if you haven't already.



Hi no Ishi said:


> If you said "Sasuke's Chidori is worse than Kakashi's Chidori, which is nicknamed Raikiri when he first learns it" you would have a point but it doesn't sound like that all you meant


That's obvious. It's not what I'm arguing. I'm not comparing kid Sasuke's Chidori power level - get that out of your thoughts. 




Hi no Ishi said:


> And of that's what you actually meant your title and OP are both phrased in such a misleading AF manner that saying you are just trying to compare the jutsu between specific points in time seems like massive goal post shifting, but sure. Now I see why you have to spend so much time accusing people of strawmaning you, at least.


I didn't try to shift anything. I've been consistent all the way through. It's you who still doesn't understand. If I said Raikiri > Chidori, _*obviously*_ I'm referring to Kakashi's and Sasuke's. But did I ever compare adult Kakashi's Raikiri to _kid Sasuke's_ (outside of SFX) which you've brought up quite frequently now? No. I already explained in my OP _exactly why_ (Kakashi's) Raikiri is more powerful than (Sasuke's) Chidori. It's you who is mis-framing my premise or trying to make it what _you_ think it should be. I'm arguing that Raikiri is a stronger jutsu than Chidori _because_ of the caster who makes it stronger; this notion is consistent throughout my OP post, which I suggest you read again. Quite important, read my recent  to  too - it will clarify some things.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Both Deidara and A4 see the jutsu from Sasuke and recognize it as Raikiri so obviously Kishimoto doesn't give a darn about what ever art changes you can point out. The characters in the show clearly dont think there's any important audio or visual differences, so there isnt.



Where's the evidence that A4 ever recognised Sasuke's Chidori as "Raikiri"/"Lightning Blade"? Assuming you have cited the evidence, answer this... why would that be relevant?
If Kishimoto didn't care about them being different, he wouldn't have made the DB so contrasting and he wouldn't have retained the distinctions several times (DB, Gai, Naruto, Sasuke) and kept such close attention to detail towards the consistency with which c_hirping_ SFX are applied to early adopters (kid Sasuke, kid Kakashi, teen Sasuke) and _electricity_ SFX are applied to seasoned users (last-fight Sasuke, adult Kakashi).
Since when is "_the characters in the show clearly don't think there's any important audio differences, so there isnt_" a good argument by any means? Have they _ever_ distinguished the sounds of Rasengan variations, or that of fireball jutsu variations etc.?


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## The Only Deer Alive (Nov 14, 2019)

Ummmm, we are told as soon as we see Sasuke using Chidori that its the same as Raikiri. This seems like a really silly discussion if you paid attention to the manga! Kakashi himself even refers to the Jutsu interchangeably! When explaining how Raikiri works, he uses the name "Chidori" we are never given a separate explanation for how Raikiri might work or is formed and we are in fact told they are identical in this manner multiple times! Deidara, the Raikage, Naruto, Sasuke, Hiruzen, Guy, Kakashi all state they are the same Jutsu in essence. Sure a jutsu can be stronger when used in the hands of a stronger person, but that doesnt mean teh Jutsu itself is any different in a general sense simply because it has a stronger user. Narutos raengan doesnt differ from Konohamarus after all! Narutos is just much stronger because he is much stronger!

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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

The Only Deer Alive said:


> Ummmm, we are told as soon as we see Sasuke using Chidori that its the same as Raikiri. This seems like a really silly discussion if you paid attention to the manga! Kakashi himself even refers to the Jutsu interchangeably! When explaining how Raikiri works, he uses the name "Chidori" we are never given a separate explanation for how Raikiri might work or is formed and we are in fact told they are identical in this manner multiple times! Deidara, the Raikage, Naruto, Sasuke, Hiruzen, Guy, Kakashi all state they are the same Jutsu in essence. Sure a jutsu can be stronger when used in the hands of a stronger person, but that doesnt mean teh Jutsu itself is any different in a general sense simply because it has a stronger user. Narutos raengan doesnt differ from Konohamarus after all! Narutos is just much stronger because he is much stronger!


Posters in this thread have already discussed _every single point_ you've just made. I've refuted/clarified every single claim. Please read the thread in full to understand properly what my actual argument is and what the counterarguments are so that you may refrain from repetition - there is absolutely no need to duplicate content which has been discussed over and over again already.


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## PrimeRichard (Nov 14, 2019)

Kakashi's Chidori gained the name "*Lightning Cutter" when he used it to split a bolt of lightning*. Although this indicates greater finesse with Kakashi's Lightning Cutter than exists with the standard Chidori, it isn't clear how they differ because they are performed in fundamentally the same way: both concentrate lightning chakra in the hand; both are used to rapidly pierce targets; both cannot be safely used without the Sharingan


Source: naruto wiki

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## The Only Deer Alive (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Posters in this thread have already discussed _every single point_ you've just made.


Its really the only point anyone should ever make on this topic if they read the material! Im not surprised to see others also coming to those conclusions independently considering its what we are outright shown and told several times over.


Mad Scientist said:


> I've refuted/clarified every single claim.


You really cannot refute what kishimoto himself pushed over half a dozen times throughout both part 1 and part 2 of Naruto. Even the databook refers to them as identical in an entry or two!


Mad Scientist said:


> Please read the thread in full to understand properly what my actual argument is and what the counterarguments are so that you may refrain from repetition


Ive read them, and your counter arguments all hinge on exactly what I went over in the last sentence of my post, which is physical difference between each user of the technique. And again these differences have nothing to do with Chidori and Raikiri being different! Nothing! Kakashi having more chakra control over Part 1 Sasuke is not an indicator that Raikiri and Chidori are any different. Thats just silly!


Mad Scientist said:


> there is absolutely no need to duplicate content which has been discussed over and over again already.


Well apparently there is considering you didnt get it the first time! Im curious tho, what exactly are you basing your stance on? Can you sum it up on a single paragraph?


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

The Only Deer Alive said:


> Its really the only point anyone should ever make on this topic if they read the material! Im not surprised to see others also coming to those conclusions independently considering its what we are outright shown and told several times over.


Posters already made the points and more. You've not added anything new so far.



> You really cannot refute what kishimoto himself pushed over half a dozen times throughout both part 1 and part 2 of Naruto. Even the databook refers to them as identical in an entry or two!


Why are you repeating points other's have already made? You're still not adding anything new to the thread. And the DB doesn't say they are identical; it says "When Kakashi uses it, Chidori is known as Raikiri" and then his Databook entry for Raikiri shows that Kishimoto clearly meant to establish it as > Chidori.



> Ive read them, and your counter arguments all hinge on exactly what I went over in the last sentence of my post, which is physical difference between each user of the technique. And again these differences have nothing to do with Chidori and Raikiri being different! Nothing! Kakashi having more chakra control over Part 1 Sasuke is not an indicator that Raikiri and Chidori are any different. Thats just silly!


You claim you read the posts. Alright, explain:

What did I argue for last-fight Sasuke?
What are all the evidence and arguments (briefly note) that I provided for Raikiri > Chidori?
In what ways have I claimed Raikiri (as a jutsu) as being better than Chidori?
What did I argue in regards to Gai's statement when he was describing Raikiri?
What did I argue concerning the Paralysis technique?
What did I argue regarding the visual appearances?
What did I argue regarding the sound effect differences and what it suggests?
Explain why you are referring to P1 Sasuke when I *NEVER* compared the power of Raikiri to his?



> Well apparently there is considering you didnt get it the first time! Im curious tho, what exactly are you basing your stance on? Can you sum it up on a single paragraph?


No, I completely understand everyone's arguments. I've responded to them adequately. You have added _nothing_ new to the thread. I'm not summarising anything for you. Read the thread like you're supposed to. Don't expect to be spoon-fed.


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## PrimeRichard (Nov 14, 2019)

@The Only Deer Alive why the disagreement


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## The Only Deer Alive (Nov 14, 2019)

PrimeRichard said:


> @The Only Deer Alive why the disagreement


Because I dont agree with what you said? Specifically this part


PrimeRichard said:


> Kakashi's Chidori gained the name "*Lightning Cutter" when he used it to split a bolt of lightning*. *Although this indicates greater finesse with Kakashi's Lightning Cutter than exists with the standard Chidori*


You are aware that Chidori is what cut the lightning correct? Raikiri is what the name is changed to after Chidori accomplished the task! So its impossible for Raikiri to have "greater finesse" because it cut lightning! As Raikiri has, ironically, never cut lightning! Only chidori has!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 14, 2019)

Your databook entry says that Kakashi's Chidori is called Raikiri. It is literally the same jutsu. Chidori = Raikiri = Chidori = Raikiri.


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## The Only Deer Alive (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Why are you repeating points other's have already made?


Because they are correct and I agree with them? Are you sure you know how an open discussion works?


Mad Scientist said:


> the DB doesn't say they are identical; it says "When Kakashi uses it, Chidori is known as Raikiri"


Thats the databook calling the 2 one in the same, in black and white, arguing against that much is silly. Period!


Mad Scientist said:


> then his Databook entry for Raikiri shows


Nothing! It shows nothing! Raikiri, despite being introduced into the story before Chidori was, doesnt even have its own databook entry separate from Chidori! It isnt mentioned until after CHidori is introduced despite being in the manga well before the first databook came out! That should tell you something. 


Mad Scientist said:


> Kishimoto clearly meant to establish it as > Chidori.


Your entire argument rests on the databook which contradicts itself at every turn even on just this subject matter! In the manga, which Kishimoto authored in case it escaped your notice, the two are pointed out several times to be synonymous 


Mad Scientist said:


> You claim you read the posts. Alright, explain:
> 
> What did I argue for last-fight Sasuke?
> What are all the evidence and arguments (briefly note) that I provided for Raikiri > Chidori?
> ...


You honestly expect me to argue your own points for you? Thats truly unreasonable! Especially when I asked you for a brief summary of your points politely already and you wont do it and are just being unreasonable! But fine.


Mad Scientist said:


> What did I argue for last-fight Sasuke?


What do you mean by "last fight" Sasuke? If you mean Sasuke from the movie "The Last" then you claimed that despite the fact he blew up a meteor the size of the entire village like it was nothing, that it only made his technique MARGINALLY better than kakashis Raikiri! 


Mad Scientist said:


> I have no issue with Adult Sasuke's Chidori >= WA Kakashi's Raikiri


Youre not being logical or objective even in the lightest is what that tells me! You have to be quite the dishonest person to believe that scene is indicative of only subtle superiority!


Mad Scientist said:


> What are all the evidence and arguments (briefly note) that I provided for Raikiri > Chidori?


Ive already covered this! Your arguments are all mostly pertaining to individual skill. Which is a very dishonest way to argue that Raikiri and Chidori are different and that premise is actually impossible to argue for that way I might add! Further, when you arent talking about chakra control, physical experience, or physical capabilities (all of which NOT having anything to do with Raikiri vs Chidori and instead is you arguing Sasuke vs Kakashi by the way!) you are getting hung up on mere databook flavor texts and wording! Which isnt actual evidence of anything and is semantics at most, and they dont even imply different things or capabilities! You cited the following...





Mad Scientist said:


> "That chirping penetrates even the most tenacious ," but for Raikiri, it is "this huge amount of chakra (note re-emphasis on huge chakra) is gathered in the hand, Kakashi's arm becomes a famous blade that can cut through ."


Which is just ridiculous! As chidori is also told to be able to *Link Removed* right here! Thats not a difference at all!


Mad Scientist said:


> In what ways have I claimed Raikiri (as a jutsu) as being better than Chidori?


Honestly you are very unclear about this. Far as I can tell, its just databook flavor text regarding it being "honed to the limit" which is nonsense! The manga, which trumps the databook, goes over that the two Jutsu are performed in the exact same way multiple times! The rest is again just you citing personal differences between users as evidence, which is dishonest.


Mad Scientist said:


> What did I argue in regards to Gai's statement when he was describing Raikiri?


Just this


Mad Scientist said:


> No one in the manga has ever stated that the _only_ difference between Raikiri and Chidori is their nickname.


Which is proven wrong by simply looking at Guys words and not lying to yourself! Guy states that "Also known as Raikiri but that is a nickname, Chidori is formal" in practically those exact words! That is precisely us being told the only difference between them!


Mad Scientist said:


> What did I argue concerning the Paralysis technique?


Your tangent on the paralysis technique is you not seeing how your point makes no sense honestly. You acknowledge the following...





Mad Scientist said:


> The Temporary Paralysis Technique (a D-rank jutsu) states: "This is a basic ninjutsu usable even by genin classes, but *its intensity will vary greatly according to the caster’s .*"


That the only difference the paralysis technique can show is indicative of one thing and one thing only and that is individual skill of the users! You cite this as some kind of evidence of Raikiri being different than Chidori while not even realizing that you arent arguing that at all with this evidence and are landing back on Kakashi > Sasuke again!


Mad Scientist said:


> What did I argue regarding the visual appearances?


You yourself state the visual appearances vary too often to reliably mean anything. Its also a useless argument regardless considering there are instances of*Link Removed*and *Link Removed* and very likely vice versa. I agree with you when you say this isnt a good argument, citing this is a headache to say the least.


Mad Scientist said:


> What did I argue regarding the sound effect differences and what it suggests?


Your sound effects argument was very silly. As pointed out by others in this thread, both techniques are shown making a wide variety of noises with plenty of overlap, this is also idnciative of nothing! You yourself state that Chidoris sounds also vary to the same as Raikiris! You are arguing with your points at almost every turn.


Mad Scientist said:


> Explain why you are referring to P1 Sasuke when I *NEVER* compared the power of Raikiri to his?


You do it subconciously with your arguments. Like here for instance...


Mad Scientist said:


> *Chakra output*. For Chidori, it is stated that it brings forth "a great amount of chakra and concentrated into one ". For Raikiri, it is "a huge amount of chakra that is a wonder even to the eyes of the !! It predicts a hopeless future." The difference in portrayal could not be clearer. Evidently, the range of action and power level are variable .
> *Chakra control*. Obviously. This leads to finer concentration of the jutsu and heightened piercing potential.
> *Physical finesse and dexterity of the actual technique*. Comes with the years of experience.
> 
> ...


These are all you comparing and contrasting a young Sasuke to Kakashis peak of experience and physical ability, none of these points are able to be attributed to Raikiri itself and are instead abilities a person hones whether they know Raikrii or not and factor into the power of every Jutsu they learn! But these are individual differences! And having nothing to do with Jutsu power on its own! What you should be arguing like is the following format..."If we had two shinobi equal in every single way, and we had one using Chidori and the other using Raikiri, where there be any difference in performance?" And the answer, as told to us in the manga several times when the two techniques are highlighted to be identical, is "No there wouldnt because its the same Jutsu" You should not be going on about what you brought up here at all, ever, as thats not how you argue the proposed premise in the title at all.


Mad Scientist said:


> No, I completely understand everyone's arguments. I've responded to them adequately


I never accused you of not responding to them or failing to understand their arguments. It seems you dont even understand your own or what they imply however. If you did, youd never bring up things like above.


Mad Scientist said:


> I'm not summarising anything for you. Read the thread like you're supposed to. Don't expect to be spoon-fed


Thats a very rude way of discussing something


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## PrimeRichard (Nov 14, 2019)

The Only Deer Alive said:


> Because I dont agree with what you said? Specifically this part
> 
> You are aware that Chidori is what cut the lightning correct? Raikiri is what the name is changed to after Chidori accomplished the task! So its impossible for Raikiri to have "greater finesse" because it cut lightning! As Raikiri has, ironically, never cut lightning! Only chidori has!


I stated it was from the wiki. I didn't edit that one out


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## The Only Deer Alive (Nov 14, 2019)

PrimeRichard said:


> I stated it was from the wiki. I didn't edit that one out


And I cannot disagree with the wiki? I never said you said it, still disagree with the information you presented regardless of where you got it from.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Your databook entry says that Kakashi's Chidori is called Raikiri. It is literally the same jutsu. Chidori = Raikiri = Chidori = Raikiri.


SM Jiraiya's Rasengan is also called Rasengan. But it's stronger than IA Naruto's, for example. Not just because SM Jiraiya is a lot faster in using it (i.e. momentum increases), but because the actual chakra and rotation mechanics are enhanced. Since you're a pretty good poster, it would be useful if you can find some flaws in my argument, but of course I recommend reading my opening post plus my reply to Blu-Ray (great poster) and replies to WorldsStrongest (bad poster). If you skip everyone else, it shouldn't be too long a read.


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## Grinningfox (Nov 14, 2019)

Okay

I think I may understand your premise

you’re asserting that Both Kakashi’s and Sasuke’s Chidori operate similar to how Minato and Naruto’s Rasengan operate?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> SM Jiraiya's Rasengan is also called Rasengan. But it's stronger than IA Naruto's, for example. Not just because SM Jiraiya is a lot faster in using it (i.e. momentum increases), but because the actual chakra and rotation mechanics are enhanced. Since you're a pretty good poster, it would be useful if you can find some flaws in my argument, but of course I recommend reading my opening post plus my reply to Blu-Ray (great poster) and replies to WorldsStrongest (bad poster). If you skip everyone else, it shouldn't be too long a read.



Since you asked nicely, I read. 

I have to admit the points re Raikiri's potrayal, size and the sfx are compelling and do make you think. @Hasan's point re how Kishi always went out of his way to distinguish the jutsu is also a thinker. 

However, a few things I can't make sense of re your points. 

1. Even though Naruto compared the Nuke to both Raikiri and Chidori, Naruto still described those jutsu as if they did the exact same thing and produced the same effects. This works with cases like Deidara who confused the 2 jutsu and Gai/Hiruzen who seemed to think the names were interchangeable. 

2. The last lines in Chidori and Raikiri's DB entry seem to reference each other 

*Chidori*_: When Kakashi uses it, Chidori is known as Raikiri.
_
*Raikiri*_: Kakashi’s Chidori cut lightning…that legend is the origin of the name Raikiri.
_​Both databook entries seem to want us to think Chidori = Raikiri.

How does your point get around the fact that a Chidori feat is used to exemplify Raikiri's hype?



blk said:


> There could be a difference in the way Kishi portrayed them, but if there is any it is marginal at best tbh.
> 
> The evidence presented isn't _that _strong, so i don't anything more than a small, almost inconsequential, difference can be justified.



Even though the evidence isn't super strong, what about the clear effort to distinguish the jutsu?



MShadows said:


> Nice thread tho. It should be common sense that Raikiri is an upgraded Chidori.




Explain, please. 

[QUOTE="Hasan, post: 60866778, member: 75070"]Raikiri [I]is[/I] Chidori. Everyone realizes that, but the idea was that author maintained a distinction. The 'two techniques' are perceived differently.

Chidori is Kakashi's technique.
Raikiri is its nickname.
But Sasuke does not use Raikiri.

My point was that these kind of issues are far better explained from an author's perspective. None of us are not expected to read Kishimoto's mind, but we can certainly make reasonable assumptions that authors generally make: This is most likely a case of the author associating particular ideas with some characters, so as to distinguish them. When Sasuke uses the technique, it should not overshadow Kakashi, so he marks a distinction. It's Kakashi's techinque, his signature, he is renowned for it — there's no reason to take away that is a [I]part[/I] of what makes the character. Every character has recognized it as his technique, and Kakuzu recognized who the assailant was on account of said assailant's powerful Raiton.

... Basically what many people have already said it (in here, as well in the past), and what the Databook states: Raikiri is Chidori honed to perfection. All other characters have their own charms; there is absolutely no need to argue who is a better taijutsu-user between Naruto and Rock Lee or Sasuke and Rock Lee or who is faster between Tobirama and Hashirama. Similarly Raikiri is uniquely Kakashi's.

[I]"An uncommon shinobi wielding a divine spear that surpasses the lightning"[/I] [I]~ Databook 4[/I].

:kkchidori[/QUOTE]

This this pertain to Raikiri's power relative to Chidori?


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Okay
> I think I may understand your premise
> you’re asserting that Both Kakashi’s and Sasuke’s Chidori operate similar to how Minato and Naruto’s Rasengan operate?


Can you explain what you mean?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Since you asked nicely, I read.
> 
> I have to admit the points re Raikiri's potrayal, size and the sfx are compelling and do make you think. @Hasan's point re how Kishi always went out of his way to distinguish the jutsu is also a thinker.


Thanks 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However, a few things I can't make sense of re your points.
> 
> 1. Even though Naruto compared the Nuke to both Raikiri and Chidori, Naruto still described those jutsu as if they did the exact same thing and produced the same effects. This works with cases like Deidara who confused the 2 jutsu and Gai/Hiruzen who seemed to think the names were interchangeable.


That's because they are the same jutsu insofar as them fundamentally working in the same way. It's the same reason why Hiruzen notes P1 kid Sasuke's Chidori with "That's Kakashi's..." even though Kishimoto intended to portray Raikiri as the .



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 2. The last lines in Chidori and Raikiri's DB entry seem to reference each other
> 
> *Chidori*_: When Kakashi uses it, Chidori is known as Raikiri.
> _
> *Raikiri*_: Kakashi’s Chidori cut lightning…that legend is the origin of the name Raikiri._​Both databook entries seem to want us to think Chidori = Raikiri.


You _could_ see it in that way, or you might notice this... Chidori's DB entry never just states "Chidori is known as Raikiri." Instead, it states "_When_ Kakashi uses it......" and Raikiri's DB specifically uses the possession form of Chidori i.e. Not "Chidori cut lightning..." but rather, "_Kakashi's_ Chidori cut lightning......"

I think what Kishimoto clearly tried to portray is that Kakashi's use of Chidori is called Raikiri, but that Raikiri is a rank higher as it's a technique honed to perfection.

​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How does your point get around the fact that a Chidori feat is used to exemplify Raikiri's hype?


1) It's _Kakashi's_ Chidori and it is specifically worded in this way.
2) Kakashi's Chidori is only called Raikiri _because_ of that legendary feat's hype i.e. Raikiri is an evolution of Chidori (which is subtly hinted at and can be reasoned with in more ways than one).


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## Grinningfox (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Can you explain what you mean?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> ...



Minato’s regular Rasengan is bigger


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Minato’s regular Rasengan is bigger


How do we know for sure that's his "regular" Rasengan? I mean, it could well be. That's not really my premise but that could be an interesting analogy...


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## Grinningfox (Nov 14, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> How do we know for sure that's his "regular" Rasengan? I mean, it could well be. That's not really my premise but that could be an interesting analogy...



[/URL]
it’s consistently shown to be big and it just called Rasengan for him


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 14, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> it’s consistently shown to be big and it just called Rasengan for him


Well, what do you think...? Do you think that could have some relevance to my points, or not really? I haven't examined Minato's Rasengan so I'm not going to make a point on it here (but I think I've made a mistake on another thread/post so thanks for bringing it up). Is it possible that from that point onward, the author just made most Rasengans that big?


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## Soul (Nov 14, 2019)

Siskebabas said:


> I'll say it again, its completely baseless that Sasuke who is atleast two tiers above kakashi in raiton mastery uses somehow less refined chidori then kakashi. Doesnt help either that he has better piercing feats then kakashi



Sasuke didn't focus on that kind of attack though. He preferred practicing and improving his level of spatial recomposition to create Chidori variants that are far more useful. Nagashi and Eisou are way better for CQC than Raikiri.


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## Siskebabas (Nov 14, 2019)

Soul said:


> Sasuke didn't focus on that kind of attack though. He preferred practicing and improving his level of spatial recomposition to create Chidori variants that are far more useful. Nagashi and Eisou are way better for CQC than Raikiri.


I dont know what exactly do you mean by this post, that by managing to chidori to many diffrent but somehow doesnt manage increase its attack power? Does that make sense?


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## Soul (Nov 15, 2019)

As for the poll, neither option is accurate.
Chidori can be stronger than Raikiri if the user has a better chakra poll, is more proficient in Ninjutsu or if he/she more efficient with chakra.



Siskebabas said:


> I dont know what exactly do you mean by this post, that by managing to chidori to many diffrent but somehow doesnt manage increase its attack power? Does that make sense?



Raikiri is a more efficient version of Chidori that took Kakashi years to master.
Sasuke, realizing that Raikiri is a pointless move because of its limited range, decided to create different Chidori variants to have better offensive firepower (Chidori Eisou + blossoming), range (Chidori Senbon) and defense (Chidori Nagashi) instead of just sticking with a borderline useless move (Chidori is almost as good as Raikiri) in a high level fight.

Chidori Nagashi isn't the same as Raikiri, Sasuke has to manipulate his chakra differently to make that happen, which is why I mentioned spatial recomposition. For more info on it re-read Naruto's training with Kage Bunshins that Kakashi suggests to him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> That's because they are the same jutsu insofar as them fundamentally working in the same way. It's the same reason why Hiruzen notes P1 kid Sasuke's Chidori with "That's Kakashi's..." even though Kishimoto intended to portray Raikiri as the .



Surely that portrayal would be consistent with Hiruzen, someone knowledgeable on Konoha's jutsu and Gai, someone who is Kakashi's rival?




> You _could_ see it in that way, or you might notice this... Chidori's DB entry never just states "Chidori is known as Raikiri." Instead, it states "_When_ Kakashi uses it......" and Raikiri's DB specifically uses the possession form of Chidori i.e. Not "Chidori cut lightning..." but rather, "_Kakashi's_ Chidori cut lightning......"
> 
> I think what Kishimoto clearly tried to portray is that Kakashi's use of Chidori is called Raikiri, but that Raikiri is a rank higher as it's a technique honed to perfection.



It states when Kakashi uses it i.e. Kakashi's Chidori is Raikiri. That's consistent with Hiruzen and Gai's remarks as well as consistent with Deidara mistaking the 2 jutsu. 

We don't know what "honed to perfection" means in this case. If you look at both their 6 Paths Chidori/Raikiri, it is pretty identical which is damning as the same "buff" would enhance the same jutsu in the same way.



> ​



This seems more like DB hype. Or if you wanted to draw meaning from it you could say Raikiri is Chidori capped out? Even then I'm not 100% as by this point (DB1-3) the databooks were pretty precise with how one jutsu is better than another, in this case it doesn't. 



> 1) It's _Kakashi's_ Chidori and it is specifically worded in this way.
> 2) Kakashi's Chidori is only called Raikiri _because_ of that legendary feat's hype i.e. Raikiri is an evolution of Chidori (which is subtly hinted at and can be reasoned with in more ways than one).



In essence it is still equating Raikiri and Chidori, even if it is _Kakashi's Chidori, _it is still _Chidori_. Regardless of the owner. There are defo compelling points, but weighing everything up, it seems like we're meant to think they possess the same power even though Kishi distinguished them simply by their user. 

In fact, Chidori _and _Raikiri have precisely the same drawbacks which necessitates the user to have the Sharingan. If anything, you could argue that Shiden is better as it has the power of Raikiri/Chidori, perhaps even more, whilst being versatile and being able to shoot out and trigger lightning storms when it hits the sky.


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## Artistwannabe (Nov 16, 2019)

They are legit the same jutsu dudes and dudettes, Kakashi just called it Raikiri cuz he supposedly cut a Lightning bolt with it, that's all there is to it.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Surely that portrayal would be consistent with Hiruzen, someone knowledgeable on Konoha's jutsu and Gai, someone who is Kakashi's rival?


I think it's the fact that the jutsu is one of a kind and so famously attached to Kakashi's character that anyone (e.g. in that case Hiruzen) attributes the technique to Kakashi. Take Deidara as an example. Chidori is impressive even if "kids" like kid Sasuke and kid Chidori use it and it looks pretty identical to Raikiri so I'm not surprised.

*Spoiler*: _Deidara_ 




*Link Removed*






Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It states when Kakashi uses it i.e. Kakashi's Chidori is Raikiri. That's consistent with Hiruzen and Gai's remarks as well as consistent with Deidara mistaking the 2 jutsu.
> 
> We don't know what "honed to perfection" means in this case. If you look at both their 6 Paths Chidori/Raikiri, it is pretty identical which is damning as the same "buff" would enhance the same jutsu in the same way.


What I pointed out was that Kishimoto made it clear that Kakashi's Chidori is not just a normal Chidori. A) The DB show that Raikiri > Chidori and B) Kishimoto could have just as easily said "Chidori is a technique that can even cut lightning" and plastered that on Chidori's DB entry. In fact, why go through the effort of making an entire page dedicated to Raikiri? I understand it could be to give Kakashi more character, but a short section could have simply been appended onto the Chidori entry instead, and they could have been treated the same as they're fundamentally the same jutsu.

Regardless of what exactly honing means, it's clear Kishimoto meant it. But I do have an explanation. One of the factors that would be involved is chakra control. Now people say "Hebi Sasuke has demonstrated better chakra control bla bla bla" but the evidence suggests a standard Raikiri encompasses more chakra finely concentrated than a standard Chidori from Sasuke (obviously not comparing Rinnegan+ etc.). And if we're talking about Rikudo Sasuke, I only mentioned him to illustrate the shift in SFX that's consistently different between early adopters and seasoned ones.

And even WA Sasuke who I haven't analysed (because of his spread out Chidori usage) _all_ are consistent with my substantiations.


*Spoiler*: _WA/beyond WA Sasuke Chidori_ 




*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*




Now obviously some of those above aren't "standard" Chidori to this Sasuke (I just included them for good measure), but the rest essentially are, and we of course know that all of last-fight Sasuke's Chidori's SFX are consistent too. There's a reason why Sasuke in CS2 mostly exhibited electricity SFX and he overwhelmingly didn't before and after.

It seems even clearer than ever to me that the early adopters of Chidori exhibit _Chirp_ SFX and the more intense Chidori exhibited by seasoned/intense users exhibit _electricity_ SFX.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This seems more like DB hype. Or if you wanted to draw meaning from it you could say Raikiri is Chidori capped out? Even then I'm not 100% as by this point (DB1-3) the databooks were pretty precise with how one jutsu is better than another, in this case it doesn't.


Perhaps it didn't need to be as clear-cut since it already had the parallel for Chidori here, and also Kishimoto already gave it S-rank so in his eyes, at the time, should have been enough, I believe. I mean, I think the DB portrayal here is consistent with everything else we've seen in regards to Chidori and Raikiri.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In essence it is still equating Raikiri and Chidori, even if it is _Kakashi's Chidori, _it is still _Chidori_. Regardless of the owner. There are defo compelling points, but weighing everything up, it seems like we're meant to think they possess the same power even though Kishi distinguished them simply by their user.


I don't think so. Not only are distinctions retained, but DB1 clearly portrays Raikiri > Chidori and careful attention seems to be paid to the SFX differences mentioned above, pertaining to early adopters and seasoned users. Plus the visual differences. Plus the fact Sasuke had 3-4 years with it and during that time focused heavily on variant techniques whereas Kakashi had 18+ years with it and seemingly didn't focus on variant techs (its honing is at least stated by the DB and we shouldn't discount that.)



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In fact, Chidori _and _Raikiri have precisely the same drawbacks which necessitates the user to have the Sharingan.


Well, they _are_ the same jutsu fundamentally.


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## Soul (Nov 16, 2019)

What are you trying to accomplish, new MS? You are arguing that Raikiri> Chidori, but how powerful either is depends on the user.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 16, 2019)

Soul said:


> What are you trying to accomplish, new MS? You are arguing that Raikiri> Chidori, but how powerful either is depends on the user.


Well, I'm mainly focusing on the standard/typical power difference between a Raikiri (naturally from adult Kakashi, as he's the only one who we see use "Raikiri") vs Sasuke's Chidori ranging from BoS to pre-WA. My argument is that a standard Raikiri from adult Kakashi is stronger than a standard Chidori from the above versions of Sasuke because:

Kakashi's technique with it is better as it has been honed to its limit (DB1), which isn't suggested for Sasuke's Chidori (SFX and Visual differences, DB, natural progression, suggestion through divergence). By technique, this includes:
Being able to add more chakra more effectively (DB, Ch.90) (visual differences, more erratic).
Being able to concentrate said chakra more finely (DB, Ch.90) (increasing piercing power).
Being able to execute the speed of the technique more effectively (increased success rate and piercing potential).
Being able to strike harder (increases damage).

The first two make a standard Raikiri > than a standard Chidori. As the DB notes for Orochimaru's Paralysis Technique, the intensity of a jutsu can vary greatly depending on the caster's level. The second two are due to the user's skill, indeed - think of them as supplementary bonuses.
That should be the crux of my argument.


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## Soul (Nov 16, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Well, I'm mainly focusing on the standard/typical power difference between a Raikiri (naturally from adult Kakashi, as he's the only one who we see use "Raikiri") vs Sasuke's Chidori ranging from BoS to pre-WA. My argument is that a standard Raikiri from adult Kakashi is stronger than a standard Chidori from the above versions of Sasuke because:
> 
> Kakashi's technique with it is better as it has been honed to its limit (DB1), which isn't suggested for Sasuke's Chidori (SFX and Visual differences, DB, natural progression, suggestion through divergence). By technique, this includes:
> Being able to add more chakra more effectively (DB, Ch.90) (visual differences, more erratic).
> ...



This is disregarding Sasuke's stats (speed, power, etc) which might be better than Kakashi's.
Theoretically the strongest one could be a full power Chidori by Hebi Sasuke with the Cursed Seal Lv. 2 improvement of speed and power.

If Kakashi's strength is 15 in a scale of power and he is using it at full efficiency, it would still be weaker than Sasuke's at 85-90% if his stats were 20 with the Cursed Seal power-up. While your initial point, in my opinion, is accurate (Raikiri is more efficient than Chidori), your conclusion is misguided because you aren't considering every possible factor.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 16, 2019)

Soul said:


> This is disregarding Sasuke's stats (speed, power, etc) which might be better than Kakashi's.
> Theoretically the strongest one could be a full power Chidori by Hebi Sasuke with the Cursed Seal Lv. 2 improvement of speed and power.
> 
> If Kakashi's strength is 15 in a scale of power and he is using it at full efficiency, it would still be weaker than Sasuke's at 85-90% if his stats were 20 with the Cursed Seal power-up. While your initial point, in my opinion, is accurate (Raikiri is more efficient than Chidori), your conclusion is misguided because you aren't considering every possible factor.


That's not quite right. Throughout this entire thread, I've tried to make clear or indicate (at the least) that I've left CS Sasuke out the equation for a specific reason. It's that _CS Sasuke's_ standard Chidori _are_ actually stronger than his CS-less self, similar in mechanics to how Kakashi's is better than CS-less Sasuke's. The SFX shift and visual difference matches my theory too: because CS Sasuke's Chidori are more intense than before, they make _electricity_ SFX rather than Chirp; for example, *Link Removed*, *Link Removed*, *Link Removed*, *Link Removed* and *Link Removed*. You can see for yourself how large _and_ erratic his Chidori became [, , , ] - pretty crazy, right? Not sure if you want to count CS1 Sasuke's *Link Removed*. 

Now you may point out *Link Removed*. Here, his Chidori was literally "bzp"ing a moment ago, so why is it _chirping_ now? I have three points to make on this:

The SFX is still huge. It's clear the Chidori became more intense. We can excuse the _chirping_ sound because as far as we're aware, Sasuke's Chidori is still from an early adopter position.
Even if this _isn't_ an outlier _and_ the above point is _unaccepted_, it is still overwhelmed by all the other examples. 
This could be an outlier. Outlier is still overwhelmed by all the other examples.
I should perhaps re-emphasise that I'm comparing the _power_ of _standard_ iterations of Raikiri/Chidori between the aforementioned character versions. I should also mention that transitions into various Chidori variants can somewhat frequently exhibit electricity SFX - the thing is, it seems quite consistent, meaning we shouldn't use it against the motion; I've tried to hint at this in my OP too I believe.


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## Soul (Nov 17, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> That's not quite right. Throughout this entire thread, I've tried to make clear or indicate (at the least) that I've left CS Sasuke out the equation for a specific reason. It's that _CS Sasuke's_ standard Chidori _are_ actually stronger than his CS-less self, similar in mechanics to how Kakashi's is better than CS-less Sasuke's. The SFX shift and visual difference matches my theory too: because CS Sasuke's Chidori are more intense than before, they make _electricity_ SFX rather than Chirp; for example, *Link Removed*, *Link Removed*, *Link Removed*, *Link Removed* and *Link Removed*. You can see for yourself how large _and_ erratic his Chidori became [, , , ] - pretty crazy, right? Not sure if you want to count CS1 Sasuke's *Link Removed*.
> 
> Now you may point out *Link Removed*. Here, his Chidori was literally "bzp"ing a moment ago, so why is it _chirping_ now? I have three points to make on this:
> 
> ...



You are missing the point.
Cursed Seal Sasuke is just an example. War Sasuke is probably faster and stronger by then, which would make his attack more powerful than Kakashi's even without the Cursed Seal amplifying Chidori. It's more about the character's strength.

Also, supposedly the Raikiri nickname came from hitting an actual thunder with Chidori. If Sasuke did that, would it be renamed Raikiri? Just food for thought.


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> You are missing the point.
> Cursed Seal Sasuke is just an example. War Sasuke is probably faster and stronger by then, which would make his attack more powerful than Kakashi's even without the Cursed Seal amplifying Chidori. It's more about the character's strength.
> 
> Also, supposedly the Raikiri nickname came from hitting an actual thunder with Chidori. If Sasuke did that, would it be renamed Raikiri? Just food for thought.


1. I did say BoS Sasuke to pre-WA  
2. Raikiri was just a nickname. By all means, at some point, Sasuke's standard Chidori became just as strong.


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## Soul (Nov 17, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> 1. I did say BoS Sasuke to pre-WA
> 2. Raikiri was just a nickname. By all means, at some point, Sasuke's standard Chidori became just as strong.



Then we are in agreement and this is a fairly simple matter.
How did this thread hit +100 replies? Technical differences?


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## Mad Scientist (Nov 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> Then we are in agreement and this is a fairly simple matter.


So do you agree that adult Kakashi's Raikiri is, on average, stronger than BoS—pre-WA Sasuke's Chidori due to physical differences in the jutsu and in some part due to his skill?



Soul said:


> How did this thread hit +100 replies? Technical differences?


I swear it was due to the amount of people that were not only repeating themselves but also repeating others' points, acting as if they had brought something new to the table. Unlike a certain minority of posters who were actually tackling specifics (e.g. Blu-Ray, you, Dracule, and some others), the rest largely consisted of those who had technical issues (as you described, which was totally fine btw), but _then_ we also had _many_ who I described as the duplicators.


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## Siskebabas (Nov 17, 2019)

You can actually make an argument that kid sasukes chidori has same power as kakashis, its just that sasukes chidori is being wielded by gennin. Something akin to giving kid pistol its still going to kill you if its hits you but at same time not so dangerous as giving it to sharshooter


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## Soul (Nov 17, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> So do you agree that adult Kakashi's Raikiri is, on average, stronger than BoS—pre-WA Sasuke's Chidori due to physical differences in the jutsu and in some part due to his skill?



It's hard to disagree with what the manga has showed.



> I swear it was due to the amount of people that were not only repeating themselves but also repeating others' points, acting as if they had brought something new to the table. Unlike a certain minority of posters who were actually tackling specifics (e.g. Blu-Ray, you, Dracule, and some others), the rest largely consisted of those who had technical issues (as you described, which was totally fine btw), but _then_ we also had _many_ who I described as the duplicators.



Ah of course.
That checks out.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 17, 2019)

Who cares the power depends on the user regardless


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## Symmetry (Nov 17, 2019)

I have avoided this thread for so long and have just lurked, and it was fun but now it's getting old. The two functions the same, was created the same by the same person, they never show any differences, and no point is this made a big deal, and we already know the reason for the name change which is not due to the properties nor base power being different. It's the same thing, Kakashi just yells a different name. This isn't needed, idk why this thread has lasted so long.

Reactions: Like 1


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