# Uzumaki vs Uchiha



## itachi sennin (Sep 21, 2013)

Representing the Uzumaki are: Uzumaki Naruto(BSM)
: Uzumaki Nagato
: Uzumaki Karin

Representing the Uchiha are: Uchiha Sasuke(EMS)
: Uchiha Itachi(MS, Healthy, Not Edo)
: Uchiha Madara(EMS, No Moukuton, No Rinnegan, No Kurama, Not Edo)

Location: Madara vs Kages
Distance: 90m
Intel: Full for both teams
Mindset: To kill


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## crisler (Sep 21, 2013)

Representing the Uzumaki are: Uzumaki Naruto(BSM)
: Uzumaki Nagato
: Uzumaki Karin

Representing the Uchiha are: Uchiha Sasuke(EMS)
: Uchiha Itachi(MS, Healthy, Not Edo)
: Uchiha Madara(EMS, No Moukuton, No Rinnegan, No Kurama, Not Edo)


Uchiha would win with ease...

Madara alone is a threat to the Uzumaki team. You've given Sasuke/Itachi as well...who are individually strong enough to fight Nagato


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 21, 2013)

Madara solos.



EDITidn't see Naruto. Uzumaki should win.


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## trance (Sep 21, 2013)

Exactly what the fuck is Karin supposed to do in this matchup?


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## Laozy (Sep 21, 2013)

Uzumaki stomp so hard it's laughable.. How can you not see that?


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## Panther (Sep 21, 2013)

BSM Naruto can solo.... or Naruto gives Nagato a Chakra cloack and lets him solo.

BM Naruto takes down Madz, while Nagato without cloak deals with the uchiha bro's.

Or Naruto give's Nagato a chakra cloack and have him inside his BM cloack spamming all sort of rinnegan jutsu's, which are gonna be on a ridiculous scale because of the buff that comes from the cloack.


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## Katana King (Sep 21, 2013)

Uchiha's go extinct...again.


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2013)

Yeah BSM Naruto can potentially solo.

Current Sasuke is not even remotely in the same tier, and itachi isn't even in the same tier as sasuke since he's not an edo.

Naruto makes a couple of KSM clones to destroy the uchiha brothers while he proceeds to wreck a Madara who would probably lose to BM Naruto let alone BSM Naruto.

KSM clones destroy itachi and sasuke's susanoo with guided KSM FRS or guided SM bijuurasengan.  Everything in their arsenal is dodged via super sage sensing and ridiculous speed.  even if amaterasu hits they just make a chakra arm and cancel it.  V3 susanoo gets blown open by a fuuton far weaker than FRS, a FRS powered by both SM and Kyuubi powers is going to wreck a V4 susanoo if it hits.  Then there's the SM bijuurasengan which is on another level of power.

Madara's PS has less durability than BM Naruto's avatar as BM Naruto's tails (the weakest part of a bijuu) blocked the juubi's laser beam while madara's PS has no defensive feats that come close to that kind of durability.  The actual firepower that we know busted PS was achievable by BM Naruto already, adding BSM which greatly increases the power of Naruto's attacks makes it overkill.  PS sword slashes only possess as much power as a normal bijuudama (at most), they get easily blocked by naruto's tails, or just flat out tanked by the avatar.

Adding nagato makes it a clear win.

Not restricting chakra sharing makes it a stomp.


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## Chad (Sep 21, 2013)

Madara needs more feats with his "sage mode".

Current Naruto can likely beat Edo Madara with extreme difficulty. An highly concentrated nuke along with sharing nature chakra to Madara might do the trick.

Itachi himself could put up a good fight against Nagato, adding Sasuke is a rape.

Karin is almost irrelevant, we all know what happens to Karin when she's in a 10 meter radius from Sasuke.


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## itachi sennin (Sep 21, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Exactly what the fuck is Karin supposed to do in this matchup?



I could not think of any other uzumaki who displayed some actual feats.


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## Ghost (Sep 21, 2013)

How is EMS Madara giving Naruto any troubles?


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## Chad (Sep 21, 2013)

itachi sennin said:


> I could not think of any other uzumaki who displayed some actual feats.



Kushina was able to restrain the Kyuubi on the verge of death.


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## trance (Sep 21, 2013)

itachi sennin said:


> I could not think of any other uzumaki who displayed some actual feats.



Ah, ok.

Anyway, BSM Naruto nukes Sasuke and Itachi in half a second then he and Nagato obliterate Madara. Karin likely dies in one of the explosions.


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## PopoTime (Sep 21, 2013)

Kushina holds the Uchiha's down with chakra chains whilst Naruto wipes them from existance with a Bijuudama


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## Psp123789 (Sep 21, 2013)

BSM naruto solos. Naruto sends some BSM clones or KM or KSM clones to deal with itachi and sasuke. EMS madara isn't going to cause current naruto much trouble at all and is going to get vaporized by a super TBB. Adding nagato makes this a terrible stomp because kyuubi cloak nagato would destroy itachi and sasuke with ease and allow naruto to rape madara with his full abilities.


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## Lawrence777 (Sep 21, 2013)

It remains to be seen whether Naruto can actually break through perfect susanoo, although it is frequently (arbitrarily) assumed that he indeed can. If Naruto can't break through Perfect Susanoo, then EMS Madara will solo / protect the weaker Uchihas. 

Sasuke and Naruto WILL be equals before this manga ends. Sasuke will probably have a powerful Susanoo. Naruto is not going to be  one-shotting Sasuke through his Susanoo when that day comes. I don't see why EMS Madara's Susanoo would be any different.


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## Krippy (Sep 21, 2013)

Uchiha win.

Madara takes out Naruto while Sauce and Itachi double team Nagato.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 21, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Uchiha win.
> 
> Madara takes out Naruto while Sauce and Itachi double team Nagato.


 
EMS madara gets destroyed by BM naruto let alone BSM naruto. BSM naruto vaporizes him with a super TBB. Itachi and sasuke beating nagato with a chakra cloak and with help from BSM clones?


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## Addy (Sep 21, 2013)

karin? seriously?  

and why does nagato have madara uchihas eye while madara doesnt have it? 

also, itachi soloes this one.


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## Cromer (Sep 21, 2013)

If you replaced Karin with Kushina this might be worth debating. As it is, hilarious Uchiha stomp.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 21, 2013)

Shrouded Nagato is probably on the same Tier as the current Madara 
Adding BSM Naruto and.... well Naruto they rape stomp.


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## LostSelf (Sep 21, 2013)

Edo Itachi needed diversions and a mistake to beat a crippled Nagato. Shrouded Nagato takes him AND Sasuke ,at least for enough time for Naruto to take down Madara . And i dare to say that one of them would be dead by the time this happens.

BSM Naruto is too haxxed. And we are giving someone with the power of Nagato a shroud. Should we remember what Rock Lee and Hinata managed to do with this.


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## Krippy (Sep 21, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> EMS madara gets destroyed by BM naruto let alone BSM naruto.



Nope. EMS Madara is in the same tier as SM Hashirama, a tier that Naruto has yet to reach. He's portrayed at a higher level and has only shown a fraction of his arsenal.



> BSM naruto vaporizes him with a super TBB.



Madara destroys it as it's charging with PS sword slashes. Then gets up close and cuts him in half.



> Itachi and sasuke beating nagato with a chakra cloak and with help from BSM clones?



>Implying Naruto can share chakra before Madara is in his ass
>Implying Naruto will give chakra to someone like Nagato with insane chakra levels
>Implying clones are as strong as/perform as well as the original

Get the fuck out.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 21, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Nope. EMS Madara is in the same tier as SM Hashirama, a tier that Naruto has yet to reach. He's portrayed at a higher level and has only shown a fraction of his arsenal


.
What? No madara needed kurama to even fight hashirama and he still lost. Nope By feats naruto was already on hashirama's tier before BSM.





> Madara destroys it as it's charging with PS sword slashes. Then gets up close and cuts him in half


.
You're acting like madara in PS has good speed feats, Look how fast naruto can charge one using the MS to warp it away was his only option
PS is going to get destroyed and Madara is going to get vaporized.
Naruto tanked the juubi's Laser with his tails, Mere sword strikes won't really even hurt him. He blocks the sword with his tails or dodges, and destroys Madara with a TBB. 




> >Implying Naruto can share chakra before Madara is in his ass


All naruto has to do is touch nagato, Oh please dude Madara isn't going to blitz the fastest guy in the manga before he can touch nagato who's right beside him. Stop wanking madara's PS speed.


> >Implying Naruto will give chakra to someone like Nagato with insane chakra levels


Naruto has given chakra cloaks to people like bee and hashirama using the MS to warp it away was his only option, so why not?


> >Implying clones are as strong as/perform as well as the original
> 
> Get the fuck out.


The clones were taking out kages and they have all the abilities of the original. Itachi and sasuke still get destroyed by them. EMS madara gets destroyed by just BM naruto, it's laughable how you think without the rinnegan and mokuton, madara can challenge BSM naruto.
.


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## Garcher (Sep 21, 2013)

Itachi solos this


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> It remains to be seen whether Naruto can actually break through perfect susanoo, although it is frequently (arbitrarily) assumed that he indeed can. If Naruto can't break through Perfect Susanoo, then EMS Madara will solo / protect the weaker Uchihas.


dude, it's not arbitrarily assumed that naruto can.

BM Naruto already makes bijuudamas the size of PS.  We see that adding hermit mode powers to a rasengan massively increases the size (and thus power) of the technique.

We also know the size of the raw explosion that destroyed PS, and it's smaller and weaker than the explosion of Naruto's Super bijuudama.

Then we also can do scaling like scaling the defensive feats of smaller susanoos to explosion ratio to the size of madara's susanoo.

So it's not at all arbitrarily assumed that he can, it's based on reasoning and evidence, if you want to say that super bijuudama destroying susanoo is an arbitrarily assumed stance, then you can pretty much say that for any stance that you can't 100% prove.

Finally, if you want to argue that a super bijuudama in fact DOESN'T destroy PS, then the burden of proof is on you to do so.



Lawrence777 said:


> Sasuke and Naruto WILL be equals before this manga ends. Sasuke will probably have a powerful Susanoo. Naruto is not going to be  one-shotting Sasuke through his Susanoo when that day comes. I don't see why EMS Madara's Susanoo would be any different.


You don't know how powerful sasuke's susanoo will be.  Sasuke's susanoo unlike madara's has a shield and it possibly has Yaata now that he has itachi's eyes.  Sasuke might have other ways of defending against a bijuudama, or plot might have it that Naruto never fires a super at sasuke.

So you can't use this portrayal A>B>C logic because you don't know what sasuke will have in order to contend with naruto, nor do you know if PIS will prevent Naruto (or Sasuke) from using things in their arsenal that would insta-win the match for them.



Krippy said:


> Nope. EMS Madara is in the same tier as SM Hashirama, a tier that Naruto has yet to reach. He's portrayed at a higher level and has only shown a fraction of his arsenal.


reread the thread, EMS Madara w/ Kurama is in the same tier as SM Hashirama  EMS Madara doesn't have kurama in this thread.  And wheres your argument that BSM Naruto has yet to reach that tier?  Has BSM Naruto ever fought or been compared to those two?  

Portrayal?  I guess V1 Lee is portrayed as stronger than Rinnegan Madara since he killed him.




Krippy said:


> Madara destroys it as it's charging with PS sword slashes. Then gets up close and cuts him in half.


Since when can a PS sword slash destroy a bijuudama?  Naruto can fire bijuudamas just as fast as Madara can slash, and he just blockes the PS slashes with his tails until his super is charged.




Krippy said:


> >Implying Naruto can share chakra before Madara is in his ass


Madara is going to summon his giant susanoo, stabalize it and somehow pressure the fasted living guy in the manga before naruto can give chakra to someone who's standing right next to him which only requires a touch?  Not only that naruto doesn't even have to directly touch the guy, he can touch him with his chakra arms or with a clone.



Krippy said:


> >Implying Naruto will give chakra to someone like Nagato with insane chakra levels


implying naruto didn't give chakra to bee. 



Krippy said:


> >Implying clones are as strong as/perform as well as the original


the only difference between clones and the original is that clones are less durable and have less chakra reserves.  Performance has no weight as that's the equivalent of bringing in PIS and thus since V1 lee solos a stronger madara than the one in this thread V1 nagato solos madara without any difficulty.


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## Datakim (Sep 21, 2013)

Its worth pointing out, that Madara in this is the EMS version. That means no huge chakra-boost from having Hashiramas face on his chest, and no unlimited chakra from being an Edo Tensei.

As such it barely matters if Naruto could break PS or not. BSM Naruto is easily fast enough to avoid the swordswings, and living human non-Senju Madara will run out of chakra far sooner than Naruto who is powered by Kurama and Natural Energy.

Though I do agree that BSM bijuudama will breach Perfect Susanoo. I think it would breach even edo!Rinnegan!Madaras Susanoo, but it will certainly break through the Susanoo of living Madara.

Ofcourse, it might be more efficient for Naruto to just go into his fox-mode, grab Nagato with one of his tails, erasing Nagatos problems with movement, and have Nagato use Preta Path to just absorb the chakra from Susanoo by moving the tail&Nagato to touch the Susanoo (the way Naruto used KCM clones inside the BM-tails to grab the rods of the edo!jinchuuriki).


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## Lawrence777 (Sep 21, 2013)

> dude, it's not arbitrarily assumed that naruto can.
> 
> BM Naruto already makes bijuudamas the size of PS. We see that adding hermit mode powers to a rasengan massively increases the size (and thus power) of the technique.


Yes.



> We also know the size of the raw explosion that destroyed PS, and it's smaller and weaker than the explosion of Naruto's Super bijuudama.


When was PS destroyed?



> Then we also can do scaling like scaling the defensive feats of smaller susanoos to explosion ratio to the size of madara's susanoo.
> 
> So it's not at all arbitrarily assumed that he can, it's based on reasoning and evidence, if you want to say that super bijuudama destroying susanoo is an arbitrarily assumed stance, then you can pretty much say that for any stance that you can't 100% prove.



The only objective conclusion to reach is Madara's Susanoo's defensive capabilities are greater than the destruction of kurama bijuu bombs and kurama bijuu bomb barrages.

It is some indeterminable amount of defense superior to those two attacks.

Naruto's senjutsu enhanced bijuu dama is either weaker, equal to, or greater than the Kurama multi-bijuu bomb barrage Madara tanked.

So, AT BEST, both the offense and defense of the two techniques are some indeterminable amount greater than anything these two characters have shown. How can anyone conclude BSM dama will break susanoo in that case? Or that Madara would tank BSM Dama?



> Finally, *if you want to argue that a super bijuudama in fact DOESN'T destroy PS, then the burden of proof is on you to do so.*


if you want to argue that a super bijuudama in fact DOES destroy PS, then the burden of proof is on you to do so.



> You don't know how powerful sasuke's susanoo will be. Sasuke's susanoo unlike madara's has a shield and it possibly has Yaata now that he has itachi's eyes. Sasuke might have other ways of defending against a bijuudama, or plot might have it that Naruto never fires a super at sasuke.
> 
> So you can't use this portrayal A>B>C logic because you don't know what sasuke will have in order to contend with naruto, nor do you know if PIS will prevent Naruto (or Sasuke) from using things in their arsenal that would insta-win the match for them.


I'll drop this point to condense the argument. Kishi isn't going to make sasuke or naruto have an insta-win in their arsenal against the other by the end of the manga. Super unlikely. I bet Sasuke will be able to tank a bijuu dama in the future if he can't already now. Guaranteed.


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> When was PS destroyed?


at VoTe




Lawrence777 said:


> The only objective conclusion to reach is Madara's Susanoo's defensive capabilities are greater than the destruction of kurama bijuu bombs and kurama bijuu bomb barrages.


Why?  And do not make me refute the blatantly obvious.  Generalizing "Kurama bijuubombs" is fallacious as the bijuubombs immensly vary in size and power.  

WHICH bijuubombs did PS tank?  Did PS actually get directly hit by any of those bombs?  No.



Lawrence777 said:


> It is some indeterminable amount of defense superior to those two attacks.
> 
> Naruto's senjutsu enhanced bijuu dama is either weaker, equal to, or greater than the Kurama multi-bijuu bomb barrage Madara tanked.


madara didn't tank the multi-bijuu bomb barrage.  And we know the size of the raw explosion that the multi-bomb barrage generated, and thus we can compare the two attacks either by size of explosion or collective size of damas.  And thus by doing that we get a super bijuudama is enough to bust PS, a BSM Bijuudama isoverkill.



Lawrence777 said:


> So, AT BEST, both the offense and defense of the two techniques are some indeterminable amount greater than anything we've seen. How can anyone conclude BSM dama will break susanoo in that case? Or that Madara would tank BSM Dama?


Shown above.  You also have ignored the fact that PS is taking a bijuudama that's roughly the same size as the construct.




Lawrence777 said:


> I'll drop this point to condense the argument. Kishi isn't going to make sasuke or naruto have an insta-win in their arsenal against the other by the end of the manga. Super unlikely. I bet Sasuke will be able to tank a bijuu dama in the future if he can't already now. Guaranteed.


Well none of this is supported by any evidence and none of this has any correlation to the current fight since you don't know how strong sasuke will get or what he'll need in order to do what you think he'll be able to do.

Finally, you once again try to dishonestly generalize "bijuudama" when the power of bijuudamas radically vary and you know we are talking about the largest of bijuudamas.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 21, 2013)

Lol Uchiha's rape.

Karin doesn't contribute anything to the team what's so ever, and since when is "current" Naruto been depicted over PS Madara? He's currently being paired with a "Fullbody" completed Susano'o Sasuke.

BSM Naruto has hardly shown or done anything besides get his chakara sucked from him.


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## Lawrence777 (Sep 21, 2013)

You are basically taking whatever destroyed a small part of Madara's Susanoo in this panel [1] and assuming it is weaker than super bijuu dama.

_For all you know_, this attack, completely focused into one small area, repeatedly pounding that same area of Perfect Susanoo, exerts more force and damage than a super bijuu dama would. 

And super bijuu dama being the size of PS is irrelevant. What matters is force applied per square meter. It probably has substantially less force applied per square meter than SM Hashirama's Mokuton construct  punching the same area of Susanoo a 100 times. Bijuu damas are explosions, it wouldn't make sense for them to be as concentrated as an attack such as a punch.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 21, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Lol Uchiha's rape.
> Karin doesn't contribute anything to the team what's so ever, and since when is "current" Naruto been depicted over PS Madara? He's currently being paired with a "Fullbody" completed Susano'o Sasuke..


They don't need Karin to win, By feats BM naruto was already able to destroy Madara. Sasuke just got that and he hasn't shown anything that naruto can't handle so I don't see how the helps madara's or sasuke's case.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 21, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> They don't need Karin to win, By feats BM naruto was already able to destroy Madara. Sasuke just got that and he hasn't shown anything that naruto can't handle so I don't see how the helps madara's or sasuke's case.



What feats? BM Naruto has not accumilated any amount of success offensively.

All of Naruto's TBB's have failed miserably last I checked.


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> You are basically taking whatever destroyed a small part of Madara's Susanoo in this panel [1] and assuming it is weaker than super bijuu dama.


Nope, regardless if it only started as a small portion of susanoo, that attack forced madara's susanoo to disappear, thus that's what it takes to destroy it.  And please show me how a small portion of susanoo was removed?  From what I saw, at least 50% of the armor was gone.

And i'm not assuming, i've given an argument for it.



Lawrence777 said:


> _For all you know_, this attack, completely focused into one small area, repeatedly pounding that same area of Perfect Susanoo, exerts more force and damage than a super bijuu dama would.


For all you know statements mean nothing.  You could post a "for all you know" statement against any argument that anyone can generate in the battledome no matter how convincing or compelling as you are simply playing on the position of skepticism which is that there is always another possible explanation.  

So no, a 'for all you know' argument isn't a positive argument thus holds no water.



Lawrence777 said:


> And super bijuu dama being the size of PS is irrelevant. What matters is force applied per square meter. It probably has substantially less force applied per square meter than SM Hashirama's Mokuton construct  punching the same area of Susanoo a 100 times. Bijuu damas are explosions, it wouldn't make sense for them to be as concentrated as an attack such as a punch.


A super bijuudama being the size of PS is totally relevant to its power versus PS's defenses.  Take any susanoo we've seen in the manga and hit it with a bijuudama of the same size and that susanoo gets vaporized.  So it's by that scaling logic that PS would be destroyed.

Next, if PS gets hit by a super, it's going to take at least 50% of the total energy of the super bijuudama.  Sure the bijuudama might have less force applied per square meter than a barrage of SM punch, but that'd only be true if the collective forces of the SM punches were equal to the force of the bijuudama.  And of course, you'd have to give an argument for the punches being only focused on a small portion of PS.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 21, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> What feats? BM Naruto has not accumilated any amount of success offensively.
> 
> All of Naruto's TBB's have failed


What do you mean all of his TBB's failed? He countered the combined power of 5 tailed beasts. He also tanked the juubi's TBB. Nobody in the manga besides the juubi has shown raw destructive power like that.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 21, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> He countered the combined p wer of 5 tailed beasts. He also tanked the juubi's TBB. Nobody in the manga besides the juubi has shown raw destructive power like that.



The feat in question is so far from what you're allocating it's not even funny.

What does countering the "combined power of five bijumas" have to do with breaching Susano'o?

And note, I was discussing Naruto's offensive potential not his defensive potential. Madara's swords were hyped to slice all creation, and so far they've done just that.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 21, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The feat in question is so far from what you're allocating it's not even funny.
> 
> What does countering the "combined power of five bijumas" have to do with breaching Susano'o?


You were implying that naruto can't destroy ems madara's PS. Naruto has enough power to counter the combined power of 5 tailed beasts. Madara's PS has not shown the defensive capabilities required to tank that kind of power and neither has sasuke's "full body susano'o". So therefore Madara's PS is going to get destroyed by a super TBB and so is sasuke's full body one.



> And note, I was discussing Naruto's offensive potential not his defensive potential. Madara's swords were hyped to slice all creation, and so far they've done just that.


I just threw in a random feat since you were downplaying naruto's power. Madara's PS slashes do not compare to the juubi's laser in power.


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## Lawrence777 (Sep 21, 2013)

> For all you know statements mean nothing. You could post a "for all you know" statement against any argument that anyone can generate in the battledome no matter how convincing or compelling as you are simply playing on the position of skepticism which is that there is always another possible explanation.
> 
> So no, a 'for all you know' argument isn't a positive argument thus holds no water.



Ueharakk, your the one saying Susanoo will DEFINITELY be destroyed. I'm saying: _maybe_ it will be, _maybe_ it won't be, we have incomplete information to determine. There is no way you can prove Naruto is going to blow apart his susanoo.  If dama barrage broke it and super dama is > than that then okay, you'd have a point. That's _not_ the case. My dubious stance is more valid than your definitive approach which for all you know can be wrong. 



> A super bijuudama being the size of PS is totally relevant to its power versus PS's defenses. *Take any susanoo we've seen in the manga and hit it with a bijuudama of the same size and that susanoo gets vaporized*. So it's by that scaling logic that PS would be destroyed.


Disregarding the fact there's no way you can possibly know the bolded, your not accounting for the fact that Susanoo has various different stages of armor. For all you know stage 4 and beyond can tank a dama the same size. Madara's partial bony susanoo tanked a focused, concentrated mountain buster rasengan from Naruto with no damage. 



> Next, if PS gets hit by a super, it's going to take at least 50% of the total energy of the super bijuudama. *Sure the bijuudama might have less force applied per square meter than a barrage of SM punch, but that'd only be true if the collective forces of the SM punches were equal to the force of the bijuudama*. And of course, you'd have to give an argument for the punches being only focused on a small portion of PS.


Hence my point, we have incomplete information. You can be right - - but for all you know I can be right, and Super Bijuu dama would be tanked.

My argument for it focusing on a specific part of  Susanoo was the only removed parts were close to each other. genjutsu in general It wouldn't make sense for Hashi to focus all over the susanoo when he needed Kurama's head to seal him anyway.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 21, 2013)

Yeah, I can see the Uzumaki team easily taking this.

_Tailed Beast Sage Mode_ Naruto can tank *anything* Madara throws at him, including the strength of_ Perfect Susano'o's_ slash; not to mention the former is obviously much faster. While the Uchiha's chakra construct overpowers Naruto in sheer physical strength (from what we've seen),_ Tailed Beast Bombs_ render that advantage essentially moot. At 90 metres, Naruto can charge a super-powered blast far above what _Perfect Susano'o_'s greatest feat of durability (that is, surviving a _Tailed Beast Bomb_ from 100% Kurama). 

Nagato against Itachi and Sasuke? The mindset is that of intent to kill - meaning, the strongest techniques to most effectively wipe out the enemy as quickly as possible, will be employed, meaning _Chou Shinra Tensei_ gets pulled from the sleeve right from the get-go. The Uchiha brothers have nothing to stand up against that scale of attack. They get obliterated.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 21, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> You were implying that naruto can't destroy ems madara's PS. Naruto has enough power to counter the combined power of 5 tailed beasts. Madara's PS has not shown the defensive capabilities required to tank that kind of power and neither has sasuke's "full body susano'o". So therefore Madara's PS is going to get destroyed by a super TBB and so is sasuke's full body one.


Again, how is matching the power of 5 tail beasts bombs related to breaching Susano'o?

Perfect Susano'o tanked a TBB from a YIN AND YANG Kurama, quite easily. So where oh where, are you getting your "facts" from?



> I just threw in a random feat since you were downplaying naruto's power. Madara's PS slashes do not compare to the juubi's laser in power.


And what you threw in, doesn't support what you're allocating, period.

Naruto's Bijudama hasn't DESTROYED ANYTHING. It's only failed, miserably time and time again.

When you can explain how countering the power of 5 tailed beasts has anything to do with breaching Susano'o, maybe, maybe your "Random feats" would hold some merit,.


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Ueharakk, your the one saying Susanoo will DEFINITELY be destroyed.


The hell? when did I say Susanoo will definitely be destroyed?  No argument that I or anyone on NF makes caters to Definitely, they are all about something being more plausible than not.  

On the other hand you were the one who fallaciously accused people who take the stance of susanoo being destroyed by SB of arbitrarily assuming that it does which is flat out false since we base our reasoning on arguments which i've given you.



Lawrence777 said:


> I'm saying: _maybe_ it will be, _maybe_ it won't be, we have incomplete information to determine. There is no way you can prove Naruto is going to blow apart his susanoo.  If dama barrage broke it and super dama is > than that then okay, you'd have a point. That's _not_ the case. My dubious stance is more valid than your definitive approach which for all you know can be wrong.


Yeah no you are straight up misrepresenting my stance by making it out to be "definitely" in order to boot the entire argument out as "we don't know" since you don't like that the arguments I've given make it much more plausible than not that susanoo gets busted.

What you've just done is 'not wanting to concede in a debate for beginners'.  You try to paint your opponent's arguments as saying they KNOW their arguments are correct and thus you can assert a burden of proof for them to prove it with 100% certainty else, we end up with the conclusion that 'we don't know' thus instead of conceding the actual stance: that your opponent's stance is more plausible or the best explanation, you boot out the entire debate with "we don't know."



Lawrence777 said:


> Disregarding the fact there's no way you can possibly know the bolded, your not accounting for the fact that Susanoo has various different stages of armor. For all you know stage 4 and beyond can tank a dama the same size. *Madara's partial bony susanoo tanked a focused, concentrated mountain buster rasengan from Naruto with no damage.*


I'm not claiming to know the bolded with 100% certainty, every claim I make is an assertion that I believe is backed up by the most evidence.  

Like I've shown before, for all you know statements mean nothing as you have not given a positive argument for it.

There is so much wrong with the bolded that it's sickening.

CHou oodama rasengan was never stated or implied to be a mountain buster.  The databook stated states that Jiraiya's SM Chou oodama rasengan can HOLLOW OUT a mountain which in no way equals a mountain buster.

In addition to that Madara's bony susanoo didn't tank it either, it disrupted the technique before it could inflict its full force or explode so no.




Lawrence777 said:


> Hence my point, we have incomplete information. You can be right - - but for all you know I can be right, and Super Bijuu dama would be tanked.


That's just the super skeptic position that could be applied to any argument anyone can generate about the manga, and it's the position that the person who doesn't want to concede that the alternative argument is much more plausible than theirs takes in order to cop out.



Lawrence777 said:


> My argument for it focusing on a specific part of  Susanoo was the only removed parts were close to each other. genjutsu in general It wouldn't make sense for Hashi to focus all over the susanoo when he needed Kurama's head to seal him anyway.


Well, then that would mean the punches were spread across half of kurama as I see half of the armor on kurama removed.  In addition to that, Hashiama couldn't have been aiming at just kurama's head as we'd see equal spread out damage to kurama with the head at he center however there is no susanoo on the left of kurama's body while the right is fine which shows the head was not the primary target.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> CHou oodama rasengan was never stated or implied to be a mountain buster.  The databook stated states that Jiraiya's SM Chou oodama rasengan can HOLLOW OUT a mountain which in no way equals a mountain buster.



Not to mention the Massive Rasengan that Madara's ribcage Susano'o shrugged off was done while Naruto was in Base; the databook entry specifically states that Sage Jiraiya adds *natural energy* to it in its formation.


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## Jagger (Sep 21, 2013)

Lol at EMS Madara being considered on the same tier as SM Hashirama when he needed the Kyuubi that raised his power levels considerably to stand a chance against Shinsuusenju. Hell, even Hashirama's Mokujin was seen to be handling Madara's Perfect Susano'O which is his trump card. Stop forgetting the Kyuubi, guys.

BSM Naruto >= EMS Madara. What is Madara's best feat with his Perfect Susano'O without the Kyuubi? Oh, I know. Slicing mountains which is something Naruto can do as well by blowing them up too, the only reason why EMS Madara was stronger back then is because the bond between Naruto and Kurama was too 'young' and thus, the time of transformation was short. Now, it's increased. Naruto has speed, quantity, raw power and chakra reserves on his side. 

Now, add Senjutsu on top of that and, according to Fugasaku, Senjutsu enhances Ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 21, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Lol at EMS Madara being considered on the same tier as SM Hashirama when he needed the Kyuubi that raised his power levels considerably to stand a chance against Shinsuusenju. Hell, even Hashirama's Mokujin was seen to be handling Madara's Perfect Susano'O which is his trump card. Stop forgetting the Kyuubi, guys.



I'd say that Base Hashirama and Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Madara were roughly equal with one another in terms of power; however, the former did indeed lack the firepower to break through Perfect Susano'o without Sage Mode. By that same token, however, Madara also couldn't touch Hashirama without having his attacks effortlessly blocked.

So I'd say it'd be a stalemate. The Nine-Tails made all the difference.



> Slicing mountains which is something Naruto can do as well by blowing them up too,



It's something Tailed Beast Mode Naruto can do much better considering his blasts vaporize the mountains, which take exponentially more energy than just slicing them.


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## Laozy (Sep 21, 2013)

If PS is so indomitable, how the hell did Hashi defeat Madara?

I don't see Hashi having more offensive capabilities than Naruto _or_ Nagato.

A Shinra Tensei that can flatten a city, or a Chibaku Tensei large enough to hold Kyuubi 600 ft up in the air wouldn't have many problems taking out or at least immobilizing PS. Nagato's would be even stronger than the Tendo casting it, anyway.

Additionally, it's been stressed Naruto is the fastest character in the series atm.


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## Lawrence777 (Sep 21, 2013)

> The hell? when did I say Susanoo will definitely be destroyed? No argument that I or anyone on NF makes caters to Definitely, they are all about something being more plausible than not.
> 
> On the other hand you were the one who fallaciously accused people who take the stance of susanoo being destroyed by SB of arbitrarily assuming that it does which is flat out false since we base our reasoning on arguments which i've given you.


It was your first post 


> The actual firepower that we know busted PS was achievable by BM Naruto already, adding BSM which greatly increases the power of Naruto's attacks makes it overkill.



And, yeah, it is arbitrarily being decided that Naruto's attack is > or =  SM Hashirama's concentrated hundred fists.



> Yeah no you are straight up misrepresenting my stance by making it out to be "definitely" in order to boot the entire argument out as "we don't know" since you don't like that the arguments I've given make it much more plausible than not that susanoo gets busted.
> 
> What you've just done is 'not wanting to concede in a debate for beginners'. You try to paint your opponent's arguments as saying they KNOW their arguments are correct and thus you can assert a burden of proof for them to prove it with 100% certainty else, we end up with the conclusion that 'we don't know' thus instead of conceding the actual stance: that your opponent's stance is more plausible or the best explanation, you boot out the entire debate with "we don't know."


lol, you must mean more plausible in your own opinion. Of course, I think my own argument is more plausible than yours otherwise I wouldn't be debating. And I'm not asserting or forcing anything on anyone. I'd be the first to admit the Uchiha's lose if Naruto can bust susanoo. If you were truly objective, you would say "you know, if naruto can't bust susanoo then the uchiha win". 



> There is so much wrong with the bolded that it's sickening.
> 
> CHou oodama rasengan was never stated or implied to be a mountain buster. The databook stated states that Jiraiya's SM Chou oodama rasengan can HOLLOW OUT a mountain which in no way equals a mountain buster.
> 
> In addition to that Madara's bony susanoo didn't tank it either, it disrupted the technique before it could inflict its full force or explode so no.


Sorry about sickening  you. How exactly do you know the rasengan didn't exert its full force? Unless it spontaneously disappeared the susanoo obviously tanked it. 

I'll concede the mounter buster bit though as I thought it referred to all rasengan the size of which Naruto made. That being said, Naruto's small rasengan in the beginning of part II, the one used on shoten Itachi, had a ridiculous explosion IIRC, so scale those two rasengans for however much damage the susanoo took.



> Well, then that would mean the punches were spread across half of kurama as I see half of the armor on kurama removed. In addition to that, Hashiama couldn't have been aiming at just kurama's head as we'd see equal spread out damage to kurama with the head at he center however there is no susanoo on the left of kurama's body while the right is fine which shows the head was not the primary target.


If the attack was  spread out than all parts of susanoo would have an equal amount of damage. There wouldn't be parts missing here and there but other parts that retained susanoo on.


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## Bansai (Sep 21, 2013)

Team Uzumaki has the advantage that one member can be completely recovered by Karin's heal bite, which means that one of them can fight twice. The other one could also fight again after being defeated, but as Sasuke has proven, biting Karin a second time in one day won't recover a person completely.  
Considering that Nagato has the Rinnegan with which he can nullify the most troublesome Ninjutsus, I think it would be a wise decision to let him be recovered completely instead of Naruto. Naruto may be stronger, but two Amaterasu users alone are too much to handle. Nagato could serve as a shield with his ability to disable Ninjutsu in this fight. That way Naruto could fight the opponents without having to deal with the overpowered Ninjutsu abilities himself. Nagato will of course fight too. And with the advantages the Uzumaki Clan has (Someone to restore Chakra and Health [Karin] and someone to disable Ninjutsu abilities [Nagato]) Naruto would certainly be able to defeat Sasuke and Nagato would certainly be able to defeat Itachi.
The only one left would be EMS Madara. But that guy is WAY too strong. Even without Rinnegan or Mokuten this man is a beast. Thanks to him, Team Uchiha will of course win.
If we talked about Pre-Rinnegan Obito (the Obito who fought Konan) instead of Madara though, I'd give it to Team Uzumaki.



Cromer said:


> If you replaced Karin with Kushina this might be worth debating. As it is, hilarious Uchiha stomp.



Sure. Why not adding someone with even less feats? Kushina wouldn't be able to do much based on what we know about her abilities. She'll probably be able to hold one character down for a few minutes, and that's it. Karin can at least use a high quality Medical Ninjutsu, which lets one character fight again after being defeated.


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## Psp123789 (Sep 21, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Again, how is matching the power of 5 tail beasts bombs related to breaching Susano'o?


Are you serious? Obviously what I'm saying is that since Naruto's super TBB is stronger than the combined power of 5 tailed beasts and since Madara's PS hasn't shown the defensive capabilities required to tank that kind of power, it most likely gets destroyed or at least most of it gets destroyed. 



> Perfect Susano'o tanked a TBB from a YIN AND YANG Kurama, quite easily. So where oh where, are you getting your "facts" from?


Madara was blocking it with his sword and it was a weak casual TBB and besides any damage wouldn't be seen as Madara was creating PS as that happened. Besides how does that compare to this? having his attacks effortlessly blocked.




> And what you threw in, doesn't support what you're allocating, period.


Naruto tanking the juubi's laser doesn't help prove that he's superior to madara? Huh?



> Naruto's Bijudama hasn't DESTROYED ANYTHING. It's only failed, miserably time and time again.


So was this a figure of my imagination? 
having his attacks effortlessly blocked. It countered the full power of 5 tailed beasts each capable of destroying mountains on their own. Again stop trying to downplay Naruto. His TBB's haven't "failed miserably" Even KN4's TBB was capable of doing this 
having his attacks effortlessly blocked.




> When you can explain how countering the power of 5 tailed beasts has anything to do with breaching Susano'o, maybe, maybe your "Random feats" would hold some merit,.


Creating an explosion this big 
having his attacks effortlessly blocked.
has nothing to do with breaching PS? I'm proving that Naruto is superior to EMS madara, all you're doing is downplaying Naruto's power by saying "His TBB's are miserable" over and over again.


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## klutchii (Sep 21, 2013)

uzumakis would win. Naruto could tank everything except a DIRECT slash from perfect susanoo( shockwaves wouldn't even phaze him) and just nuke the field with a super bijuudama(unless ps really did tank those quadruple juubidamas) and thats gg


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## SLB (Sep 21, 2013)

Fairly certain this new powerup puts Naruto over EMS Madara.

Uzumakis win this. Karin's "one-bite" heal is unbelievably cheap in battle. I'm sure she'd be killed on instant considering these Uchihas are fairly intelligent. But if she isn't, one of these Uzumakis just got another shot at the fight.


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## Wolfstein (Sep 21, 2013)

The word "VS" suggest that there is a fight to be had. What this really  is, is man slaughter.


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> It was your first post


1) I'm not using know as 100% know, it's just another way of saying that 'i believe it's the most supported' instead of typing that out over and over again as I assumed that most people who have experience in debates understand that we aren't trying to 100% prove anything since we don't have the means to do so.
2) I'm using 'we know' in reference to the attack hashirama used to destroy PS and then asserting that attack is comparable or whatnot to what naruto can do.



Lawrence777 said:


> And, yeah, it is arbitrarily being decided that Naruto's attack is > or =  SM Hashirama's concentrated hundred fists.


That's a baseless assertion which in fact is ironically arbitrary as you've given no positive argument to support it while I on the other hand have given an argument to support my own.



Lawrence777 said:


> lol, you must mean more plausible in your own opinion. Of course, I think my own argument is more plausible than yours otherwise I wouldn't be debating. And I'm not asserting or forcing anything on anyone. I'd be the first to admit the Uchiha's lose if Naruto can bust susanoo. If you were truly objective, you would say *"you know, if naruto can't bust susanoo then the uchiha win"*.


Of course I mean more plausible in my own opinion and thus I support my own opinion with arguments.  If you don't agree with my opinion that it's more plausible, then you have a burden of proof to back your own opinion up with some kind of argument.  If you can't do that, then your own opinion is baseless and holds no water.  This is debating 101.

And no, the bolded isn't even true either because that can be true yet at the same time the statement that the uchiha's can't bust BSM avatar can be true as well, thus you'd have to see which can either outlast the other or if they have different ways of forcing the other out of that form besides force.



Lawrence777 said:


> Sorry about sickening  you. How exactly do you know the rasengan didn't exert its full force? Unless it spontaneously disappeared the susanoo obviously tanked it.


Because we see madara disrupted the technique by hitting the two clones...  And we've seen that rasengans get disrupted before exerting their full force if you hit the users.

And of course, i'm not asserting 100% knowledge just that it's more probable that the rasengan was disrupted.  Now what proof do you have that the rasengan didn't get disrupted and did exert its full force on susanoo.



Lawrence777 said:


> I'll concede the mounter buster bit though as I thought it referred to all rasengan the size of which Naruto made. That being said, Naruto's small rasengan in the beginning of part II, the one used on shoten Itachi, had a ridiculous explosion IIRC, so scale those two rasengans for however much damage the susanoo took.


The one he made at the beginning of part 2 was created by concentrated kurama chakra and it's called "oodama rasengan".  We see naruto's current oodama rasengans are much much larger than that one which either means that it's a retcon on the technique or that you can't scale the size to power of that technique to naruto's own.



Lawrence777 said:


> If the attack was  spread out than all parts of susanoo would have an equal amount of damage. There wouldn't be parts missing here and there but other parts that retained susanoo on.


The statement that the attack wasn't focused on the head does not mean that I am saying the attack was spread out on all parts of susanoo.  So I don't know why you're bringing up this point.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 21, 2013)

naruto hasnt fired a bijudama that is capable of carving an entire valley like chojo kebetsu can. if he cant create valley level destruction in one shot, then he cant destroy madaras susano. nagato still gets erased from existence by a PS slash. karin is worthless. 

madara solos this.


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## Lawrence777 (Sep 21, 2013)

> 1) I'm not using know as 100% know, it's just another way of saying that 'i believe it's the most supported' instead of typing that out over and over again as I assumed that most people who have experience in debates understand that we aren't trying to 100% prove anything since we don't have the means to do so.
> 2) I'm using 'we know' in reference to the attack hashirama used to destroy PS and then asserting that attack is comparable or whatnot to what naruto can do.





> That's a baseless assertion which in fact is ironically arbitrary as you've given no positive argument to support it while I on the other hand have given an argument to support my own.


How is Naruto's Bijuu bomb spread out splash damage explosions comparable to SM Hashirama's hundreds fists in a reasonably concentrated area?



> Because we see madara disrupted the technique by hitting the two clones... And we've seen that rasengans get disrupted before exerting their full force if you hit the users.
> 
> And of course, i'm not asserting 100% knowledge just that it's more probable that the rasengan was disrupted. Now what proof do you have that the rasengan didn't get disrupted and did exert its full force on susanoo.


Well, this is easy to determine. Has a rasengan ever evaporated after the user was interrupted? I'm not familiar enough with the jutsus feats to know this but maybe you can provide a scan you remember.



> The one he made at the beginning of part 2 was created by concentrated kurama chakra and it's called "oodama rasengan". We see naruto's current oodama rasengans are much much larger than that one which either means that it's a retcon on the technique or that you can't scale the size to power of that technique to naruto's own.


Overthinking this. We know that giant rasengan Naruto made is powerful. My point was Madara tanked it in bones form.



> The statement that the attack wasn't focused on the head does not mean that I am saying the attack was spread out on all parts of susanoo. So I don't know why you're bringing up this point.


Why is Kurama's right shoulder less armored than his left shoulder after hashirama's attack in this scan   ?


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> How is Naruto's Bijuu bomb spread out splash damage explosions comparable to SM Hashirama's hundreds fists in a reasonably concentrated area?


1) bijuudama's explosion >>>> raw explosion of same size (see SM FRS vs standard bijuudama)
2) bijuudama inflicts 50% of its power if it hits the target directly and isn't larger than said target



Lawrence777 said:


> Well, this is easy to determine. Has a rasengan ever evaporated after the user was interrupted? I'm not familiar enough with the jutsus feats to know this but maybe you can provide a scan you remember.


Yes, it happened when kabuto kicked naruto and happened when Kurama roared naruto away.



Lawrence777 said:


> Overthinking this. We know that giant rasengan Naruto made is powerful. My point was Madara tanked it in bones form.


he didn't though, he resisted it long enough to disrupt the technique.



Lawrence777 said:


> Why is the right shoulder less armored than the left shoulder after hashirama's attack in this scan   ?
> 
> Now that we know it was focused


and when did i ever say it wasn't focused?  I only stated it wasn't focused on the head which is what you've claimed.  Now on how large an area do you think the attack was focused on?



Shinobi no Kami said:


> naruto hasnt fired a bijudama that is capable of carving an entire valley like chojo kebetsu can. if he cant create valley level destruction in one shot, then he cant destroy madaras susano. nagato still gets erased from existence by a PS slash. karin is worthless.
> 
> madara solos this.


Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama created a* valley that can house the V2 juubi* before the bomb even went off.

VoTe* valley level destruction* is childsplay to BM Naruto, let alone BSM Naruto.  Thus since you have stated that valley level destruction is all it takes to destroy PS, then BM Naruto solos PS and BSM Naruto stomps it.


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## Jagger (Sep 21, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I'd say that Base Hashirama and Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Madara were roughly equal with one another in terms of power; however, the former did indeed lack the firepower to break through Perfect Susano'o without Sage Mode. By that same token, however, Madara also couldn't touch Hashirama without having his attacks effortlessly blocked.
> 
> So I'd say it'd be a stalemate. The Nine-Tails made all the difference.
> 
> ...


I agree with you in that statement about EMS Madara = Base Hashirama, but SM Hashirama is superior to EMS Madara and it's been shown in canon that is indeed truth to the point Madara decided to use the Kyuubi to put himself on equal grounds with his rival who surpassed him with SM, I said "SM Hashirama is vastly superior to EMS Madara" in my post, not "Base Hashirama is vastly superior than EMS Madara" because that's not true. I agree with the Kyuubi part.

Yeah, people underrate BM Naruto lately, but going by the same token, they also overrate it sometimes.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> *Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama *created a* valley that can house the V2 juubi* before the bomb even went off.


im hoping that you can already see the problem with the bold. this isnt relevant to narutos own capabilities. thats not a valley. thats a trench.
the valley at VOTE casually housed shinsuusenju(which is multiple times bigger than the juubi), mokujin and the kyuubi. the mokujin can be scaled to the body of the V2 juubi in size based on this scan.



> VoTe* valley level destruction* is childsplay to BM Naruto, let alone BSM Naruto.  Thus since you have stated that valley level destruction is all it takes to destroy PS, then BM Naruto solos PS and BSM Naruto stomps it.


why does the naruto fanbase always lie?

valley level destruction is childs play to BM naruto yet he has never done anything comparable to that with any of his bijudamas? nonsense.

madaras PS protected him from 4 juubidamas.


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im hoping that you can already see the problem with the bold. this isnt relevant to narutos own capabilities.


Well how much of the power of that bijuudama did you think naruto contributed?



Shinobi no Kami said:


> thats not a valley. thats a trench.


what's the difference?  Doesn't really matter though since that trench is clearly magnitudes larger than the valley that we saw madara and hashirama standing inside.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> the valley at VOTE casually housed shinsuusenju(which is multiple times bigger than the juubi), mokujin and the kyuubi. the mokujin can be scaled to the body of the V2 juubi in size based on this scan.


Er, the valley at VoTe in no way housed any of that as this is *the height of the VoTe valley compared to the size of madara and hashirama.*



Shinobi no Kami said:


> why does the naruto fanbase always lie?
> 
> valley level destruction is childs play to BM naruto yet he has never done anything comparable to that with any of his bijudamas? nonsense.


He's made a valley far larger than the one at VoTe with the help of a being who's way less powerful than him, and he accomplished that with just the traveling force of the bijuudama.  How is that nonsense?



Shinobi no Kami said:


> madaras PS protected him from 4 juubidamas.


Prove it.  Wait hold on, does that mean you are saying that VoTe's power was > 4 super Juubidamas?


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## Trojan (Sep 21, 2013)

BM Naruto was already capable of defeating Madara Or Hashirama. 
 BSM Naruto is stronger than edo madara IMO. And when he give some of his chakra to Nagato
Sasuke & itachi will be part of the next moon.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Well how much of the power of that bijuudama did you think naruto contributed?


it depends on how much power the hachibi has compared to the kyuubi. the only possible conclusion is that naruto couldnt pull off something of that magnitude on his own.



> what's the difference?  Doesn't really matter though since that trench is clearly magnitudes larger than the valley that we saw madara and hashirama standing inside.


the valley was big enough to fit shinuusenju, mokujin and the kyuubi. in the scan where we see hashirama and madara inside it, they arent even standing at the bottom of the valley.



> Er, the valley at VoTe in no way housed any of that as this is *the height of the VoTe valley compared to the size of madara and hashirama.*


this is just perspective. you cant even see the top of the valley in the section that hashirama and madara are standing in. they arent even standing in the most bottom part of it.



> He's made a valley far larger than the one at VoTe with the help of a being who's way less powerful than him, and he accomplished that with just the traveling force of the bijuudama.  How is that nonsense?


i already proved this to be erroneous.



> Prove it.


madara only had a diminished susano after the blast and his fan was still intact which shows that the juubidamas didnt completely penetrate PS.


> Wait hold on, does that mean you are saying that VoTe's power was > 4 super Juubidamas?


if you want to argue explosion size, then the juubi bijudama was 20+ mountains wide.


the explosion from hashirama and madaras clash was 50+ mountains wide.

*Spoiler*: __ 








you could argue that that wasnt a super juubidama but you dont know how much stronger a super juubidama is than a regular juubidama since there isnt a scan that clearly shows the explosion of a super juubidama.


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## Jagger (Sep 21, 2013)

For all we know, Madara's PS got eradicated by the 4 Bijuudama just like Hashirama's Mokujin.


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## Bonly (Sep 21, 2013)

itachi sennin said:


> Representing the Uzumaki are: Uzumaki Naruto(BSM)
> : Uzumaki Nagato
> : Uzumaki Karin
> 
> ...



I'd go with team Uchiha to lose more times then not. Nagato is strong enough to beat Itachi and Sasuke as well as can put up a god fight against Madara which he might possibly win. Now add in Naruto who can beat any of the three and things aren't looking to good for team Uchiha. Now add in the fact that Naruto can give some of his chakra to Nagato as well lol, yeah team Uzumaki should win this more times then not handily unless you do some restricting.


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## ueharakk (Sep 21, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> it depends on how much power the hachibi has compared to the kyuubi. the only possible conclusion is that naruto couldnt pull off something of that magnitude on his own.


Yeah no one is arguing that BM Naruto could do that on his own.  So, had Naruto been alone, how would his compare to that Bijuudama?  

The hachibi was amazed at how powerful naruto's bijuudama is so at the very least he contributed he majority of that attack's power.  The attack was much larger than what would be required for the V2 juubi to sit within it.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> the valley was big enough to fit shinuusenju, mokujin and the kyuubi. in the scan where we see hashirama and madara inside it, they arent even standing at the bottom of the valley.


yeah, and from that scan we see the height of the valley is not even close to what it would take to fit any of those things you've listed within them . It's not even wide enough to fit those things within.

And I want to see what scan leads you to believe all those three things can fit in the valley they created.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> this is just perspective. you cant even see the top of the valley in the section that hashirama and madara are standing in. they arent even standing in the most bottom part of it.


oh you can't see the top of the valley?  

*Well how about in this scan.*  here we can clearly see how high the valley is compared to madara and hashirama, and it doesn't come anywhere close to being tall enough to house even *100% Kurama* let alone shinsuusenjuu.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> i already proved this to be erroneous.


er no you haven't.  You simply stated "it depends on how much kurama added to the bijuudama" you haven't made a statement about how big a valley BM Naruto can actually do by himself.

Next, the scans straight up falsify your ridiculous notion that the valley created by their battle could house 100% Kurama let alone shinsuusenjuu.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> madara only had a diminished susano after the blast and his fan was still intact which shows that the juubidamas didnt completely penetrate PS.


Madara was shown more than a chapter after the blast, so none of that means anything.  The fan is a legendary uchiha fan that has an innate ability to absorb and reflect attacks and even the rocks below Madara and Hashirama weren't damaged by the juubidama so kishi simply left out that destruction.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> if you want to argue explosion size, then the juubi bijudama was 20+ mountains wide.
> 
> 
> the explosion from hashirama and madaras clash was 50+ mountains wide.
> ...


What are you talking about, the explosion Hashirama and madara's clash didn't envelope 50+ mountains, and those mountains that were next to both of them were tiny in comparison to the mountains that the juubi'dama destroyed.  The mountains the juubidama destroyed were comparable to the area bee cleared out with his whirlwind in size, the mountains that were at *VoTe were tiny in comparison.*

Not only that, but the explosion we see at VoTe is the combined explosion of hashirama and madara's attacks.  thus you'd cut that blast in half to see how big the actual explosion is.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> you could argue that that wasnt a super juubidama but you dont know how much stronger a super juubidama is than a regular juubidama since there isnt a scan that clearly shows the explosion of a super juubidama.


I don't need to argue that as a normal juubidama is much much stronger than what we've seen at VoTe.  Look at the scan you posted of the V2 juubidama.  Notice how the mountains that the dama blew up are substantially larger than the mountains in the bottom right hand corner.  The ones in the bottom right hand corner are the ones comparable in size as the ones at VoTe and the juubidama would encompass hundreds of those mountains in its explosion.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 21, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Are you serious? Obviously what I'm saying is that since Naruto's super TBB is stronger than the combined power of 5 tailed beasts and since Madara's PS hasn't shown the defensive capabilities required to tank that kind of power, it most likely gets destroyed or at least most of it gets destroyed.


(At my own computer let's play)

Naruto's super TBB is stronger than the combined power of 5 tailed beats?(Yep, that's why they canceled each other out)

The feat in question by no means support your thesis.

Madara's PS has never been damaged by a TBB, and Naruto's POWER HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWCASED TO BE ON THIS LEVEL.



> Madara was blocking it with his sword and it was a weak casual TBB and besides any damage wouldn't be seen as Madara was creating PS as that happened. Besides how does that compare to this? *VoTe were tiny in comparison.*


Madara's sword is composed of the same material as his Susano'o, thus your point has no merit here.

And what are you talking about? Madara's Susano'o clearly tanked TBB from a YIN AND YANG KYUUBI.



> Naruto tanking the juubi's laser doesn't help prove that he's superior to madara? Huh?


Why would it? Has Madara's PS been pitted against the Juubi's lasers? You are aware that Hachibi manage to tank the very laser in question right, and then some. 

You are aware that Hachibi manage to tank his own TBB, right?

Stop putting TBB on a pedestal, as it's TRACK RECORD doesn't depict or showcase it as a PS stopper.




> So was this a figure of my imagination?
> *VoTe were tiny in comparison.* It countered the full power of 5 tailed beasts each capable of destroying mountains on their own. Again stop trying to downplay Naruto. His TBB's haven't "failed miserably" Even KN4's TBB was capable of doing this
> *VoTe were tiny in comparison.*


Destroying mountains and destroying Susano'o is TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, mate.

Perfect Susano'o has already TANKED A MOUNTAIN BUSTER.
Hell, Suigetsu and Hachibi have both tanked a "MOUNTAIN BUSTER"

How, how, do you translate the feat above into an argument against PS.

Better yet, have you read the latest chapter?

You Naruto fans sound silly, as Naruto was paired with.....

How is Naruto supposed to be stronger than Madara's PS, if he's being PAIRED WITH A NONE PERFECT SUSANO'O, AT HIS PEAK "Currently"?



> Creating an explosion this big
> *VoTe were tiny in comparison.*
> has nothing to do with breaching PS? I'm proving that Naruto is superior to EMS madara, all you're doing is downplaying Naruto's power by saying "His TBB's are miserable" over and over again.


Does the size of an explosion dictate it's damage?

Do I have to pull out my FRS vs. "Hell Stab" argument?
Please note the different is THE SCALE OF THE ATTACK.

Yet the later did more damage.

And no ones is downplaying anything, I'm kicking facts Psp.

And the fact is Naruto has nothing, nothing under his belt to suggest he's above PS. 

And the fact is Naruto is currently, currently being paired with a NONE PS user.

But Iphr0z3nI is just getting started.

Note you keep referring back to the same FEAT, to support your case, but you ignore Naruto's LATER PERFORMANCES.

Naruto hasn't been that impressive on the offensive.

Failure 1, 2, Failure 1, Failure 1, Failure 1

Oh I almost forgot.

LMAO, Naruto being on the level of EMS Madara/Hashirama. On what Merit? Naruto just recovered from a "situation" as soon as last chapter. A situation in which only he needed saving from. How, how, do you make an argument for his "Current" level based of NEXT TO NOTHING. How do you overlook the significance of this panel?(That panel doesn't suggest on "PS" Susano'o level in the slightest)


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Yeah no one is arguing that BM Naruto could do that on his own.  So, had Naruto been alone, how would his compare to that Bijuudama?


idk. if i were to guess, narutos bijudama would be 65% of the combined bijudama.


> The hachibi was amazed at how powerful naruto's bijuudama is so at the very least he contributed he majority of that attack's power.  The attack was much larger than what would be required for the V2 juubi to sit within it.


the hachibis contribution was still significant, otherwise there would be no point to the combined bijudama.



> yeah, and from that scan we see the height of the valley is not even close to what it would take to fit any of those things you've listed within them . It's not even wide enough to fit those things within.


the valley already did fit all of those things in it the moment after shinsuusenju carved it out.


> And I want to see what scan leads you to believe all those three things can fit in the valley they created.


after chojo kebetsu was used, the ground under shinsuusenju and the kyuubi collapsed. both of them fit just fine inside VOTE.


the mokujin has enough space to jump off and reach the kyuubi.





> oh you can't see the top of the valley?
> 
> *Well how about in this scan.*  here we can clearly see how high the valley is compared to madara and hashirama, and it doesn't come anywhere close to being tall enough to house even *100% Kurama* let alone shinsuusenjuu.


but it already did the moment, th moment after it was carved out by chojo kebetsu.



> er no you haven't.  You simply stated "it depends on how much kurama added to the bijuudama" you haven't made a statement about how big a valley BM Naruto can actually do by himself.


the combined bijudama didnt make a valley. do you think that 50% kyuubi can replicate VOTE with this?



> Next, the scans straight up falsify your ridiculous notion that the valley created by their battle could house 100% Kurama let alone shinsuusenjuu.


its not falsified since the valley already housed them in canon. just replace the strip of area that shinsuusenju and the kyuubi are in with a valley, and you have VOTE.




> Madara was shown more than a chapter after the blast, so none of that means anything.  The fan is a legendary uchiha fan that has an innate ability to absorb and reflect attacks and even the rocks below Madara and Hashirama weren't damaged by the juubidama so kishi simply left out that destruction.


the fan cant absorb or reflect anything if madara isnt channeling chakra or using jutsu through it. what do you mean, "the rocks below Madara and Hashirama weren't damaged". 90% of the earths crust is rock. after the juubidamas explosion is done vaporizing anything in the immediate vicinity including the ground, what would be exposed? more rock obviously.



> *What are you talking about, the explosion Hashirama and madara's clash didn't envelope 50+ mountains,* and those mountains that were next to both of them were tiny in comparison to the mountains that the juubi'dama destroyed.  The mountains the juubidama destroyed were comparable to the area bee cleared out with his whirlwind in size, the mountains that were at *VoTe were tiny in comparison.*


@bold-



> Not only that, but the explosion we see at VoTe is the combined explosion of hashirama and madara's attacks.  thus you'd cut that blast in half to see how big the actual explosion is.


25+ mountain wide explosion for each going by your logic. the explosion itself doesnt matter anyway. the actual damage to the area is what matters.



> I don't need to argue that as a normal juubidama is much much stronger than what we've seen at VoTe.  Look at the scan you posted of the V2 juubidama.  Notice how the mountains that the dama blew up are substantially larger than the mountains in the bottom right hand corner.  The ones in the bottom right hand corner are the ones comparable in size as the ones at VoTe and the juubidama would encompass hundreds of those mountains in its explosion.


you're just assuming the mountains at VOTE were smaller, because you want them to be.
you can only see the tops in the mountains that are closer by in the scan due to how high the pic is and you can see the mountains in the back in full view due to how far back they are. there isnt any difference between the mountains.

its the same high perspective here, where the the building at the front looks to be shorter than the other buildings in the back merely due to the height of the shot.


----------



## Psp123789 (Sep 21, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> (At my own computer let's play)
> 
> Naruto's super TBB is stronger than the combined power of 5 tailed beats?(Yep, that's why they canceled each other out)
> 
> ...


Matching the power of 5 tailed beasts with a TBB is still enough to damage Madara's PS. What? The explosion that naruto and the tailed beasts made and the combined TBB Naruto and Bee created were above that lvl. How is that way above naruto's lvl? SM enhances techniques so it's going to be even more powerful. First of all the attack destroyed madara's PS, second of all Super TBB's definitely match that in power, Even if Madara survives one naruto can just make another one and finish the job. I also forgot that naruto has clones and can also use COFRS to damage to PS. PS is not tanking COFRS and super TBBB spam.




> Madara's sword is composed of the same material as his Susano'o, thus your point has no merit here.


The sword is protecting Madara who is in it, blocking it with the sword is protecting Madara and again any damage wouldn't be shown as Madara was constructing PS at this point.



> And what are you talking about? Madara's Susano'o clearly tanked TBB from a YIN AND YANG KYUUBI.


Again a casual un charged TBB doesn't compare to a super one.




> Why would it? Has Madara's PS been pitted against the Juubi's lasers? You are aware that Hachibi manage to tank the very laser in question right, and then some.
> 
> You are aware that Hachibi manage to tank his own TBB, right?


So now you're assuming it can tank it now? Pretty sure he was being teleported while that happened, and again the TBB exploded inside the juubi and pushed Hachibi back. Again you're comparing something that is far less powerful than a super TBB and why are you trying to use Bee for Madara's PS tanking feats? Sword strikes aren't more powerful than the juubi's laser, so naruto can tank them while PS can't tank multiple super TBB's. That was my point.



> Stop putting TBB on a pedestal, as it's TRACK RECORD doesn't depict or showcase it as a PS stopper.


Until you show me PS tanking something comparable to a super TBB, it's most likely getting destroyed and even if you argue it tanks 1, it isn't tanking 2 or 3.





> Destroying mountains and destroying Susano'o is TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, mate.


When did I ever compare the 2 and look at the mountains in comparison to this explosion 
*VoTe were tiny in comparison.*



> Perfect Susano'o has already TANKED A MOUNTAIN BUSTER.
> Hell, Suigetsu and Hachibi have both tanked a "MOUNTAIN BUSTER"


Again I said a super TBB is what destroys PS. They aren't comparable to what Naruto can do.



> How, how, do you translate the feat above into an argument against PS.


That wasn't against PS, that was to prove your silly point wrong that naruto's TBB hasn't destroyed anything. 



> Better yet, have you read the latest chapter?
> 
> You Naruto fans sound silly, as Naruto was paired with.....


How is that even remotely involved with PS tanking a TBB? You're acting like Naruto standing next to Sasuke is suppose to mean something.



> How is Naruto supposed to be stronger than Madara's PS, if he's being PAIRED WITH A NONE PERFECT SUSANO'O, AT HIS PEAK "Currently"?


Again not even a reasonable argument as to how PS tanks a super TBB.....




> Does the size of an explosion dictate it's damage?
> 
> Do I have to pull out my FRS vs. "Hell Stab" argument?
> Please note the different is THE SCALE OF THE ATTACK.
> ...


One is not an explosive attack at all so I fail to see your point, Hell stab is a piercing technique, it pierces not explodes so your point doesn't really prove anything. Besides Naruto's TBB dwarfed the mountains, the same which were destroyed by casual TBB's. So mountain lvl destructive power is achievable just with a normal TBB and they can be spammed along with super TBB's.



> And no ones is downplaying anything, I'm kicking facts Psp.
> 
> And the fact is Naruto has nothing, nothing under his belt to suggest he's above PS.
> 
> ...


Sying Naruto's TBB is miserable isn't downplaying? Saying that because naruto is standing next to sausuke, Madara is stronger isn't downplaying?
PS hasn't shown anything that proves it's above Naruto while Naruto has shown power above PS. Sasuke standing next to naruto doesn't prove PS is stronger than BSM naruto. Matching 5 tailed beasts in power is one of Naruto's best TBB"s feats, along with him and bee's combined TBB. You keep relying on that casual Kyuubi TBB scan which doesn't compare to what naruto can make.



> Naruto hasn't been that impressive on the offensive.
> 
> Failure 1, 2, Failure 1, Failure 1, Failure 1


So failing against the strongest being in the manga who the sage of six paths struggled to defeat, who could own Madara without breaking a sweat proves Naruto can't destroy PS?



> Oh I almost forgot.


I guess you also forgot how Naruto escapes out of the technique likes 2 seconds later right?



> LMAO, Naruto being on the level of EMS Madara/Hashirama. On what Merit? Naruto just recovered from a "situation" as soon as last chapter. A situation in which only he needed saving from. How, how, do you make an argument for his "Current" level based of NEXT TO NOTHING. How do you overlook the significance of this panel?(That panel doesn't suggest on "PS" Susano'o level in the slightest)


Naruto is on their lvl because he matched 5 tailed beasts in power, tanked the juubi's TBB, knocked away 5 multi mountain busters with ease, moved faster than the 4th raikage, beat kages with his clones, and a lot more. No I'm basing my argument off of what naruto already shown in BM which is enough to beat EMS madara. Again why the hell are you suggesting that since Naruto is standing near sasuke, Madara is above him? What the hell kind of logic is that? Seriously dude.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 21, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Lol at EMS Madara being considered on the same tier as SM Hashirama when he needed the Kyuubi that raised his power levels considerably to stand a chance against Shinsuusenju. Hell, even Hashirama's Mokujin was seen to be handling Madara's Perfect Susano'O which is his trump card. Stop forgetting the Kyuubi, guys.


But their depiction here suggest....

There continued stalemate, with Madara using solely EMS powers suggest....

This panel suggest......

The Kyuubi was an asset, but I question it's significance in regards to Madara's overall power level, as it essentially brought to the table the very thing in which PS already provided, more raw power than one knew what to do with.

Seeing as Kurama is the least versatile of the tailed beast. This, is all he brought to the table for Madara.  And the attack in question essentially does this here, in a different manner. 



> BSM Naruto >= EMS Madara. What is Madara's best feat with his Perfect Susano'O without the Kyuubi? Oh, I know. *Slicing mountains which is something Naruto can do as well by blowing them up too*, the only reason why EMS Madara was stronger back then is because the bond between Naruto and Kurama was too 'young' and thus, the time of transformation was short. Now, it's increased. Naruto has speed, quantity, raw power and chakra reserves on his side.


What is BSM Naruto's best feat? Getting soloed by a "Chakara sucking" tree?


*Spoiler*: __ 




Ironically, your point in bold validate my earlier assessment. If Kurama simply brought to the table the ability to BLOW UP MOUNTAINS OPPOSED TO SLICING THEM IN HALF, what is the significance of it to EMS Madara's overall power? Isn't Kurama essentially serving the same task?




And I think you're underestimating PS.

As judging from Sasuke's showing this chapter, a Susano'o with legs  can really move. 

You also cannot diminish the advantage one has with a sword in regards to certain situation.

Kyuubi alone vs. Mokuton dragon. 

Naruto also had similar trouble.

Now Observe how Kurama handled the situation after gaining access to the cutting power of Madara's PS.

You cannot diminish the size gap between a perfect Susano'o and a BM.(Which is the same issue Sasuke had prior to this chapter)

Speaking of this chapter, this panel doesn't suggest Perfect Susano'o level yet, as Sasuke isn't using PS, but he will likely match "Current" Naruto's showcasing, regardless.



> Now, add Senjutsu on top of that and, according to Fugasaku, Senjutsu enhances Ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu.


But Senjutsu outside of NARUTO BEING ABLE TO HARM OBITO, hasn't shown to add anything to Naruto's bag of tricks, yet.

This thread is premature, this discussion could take a left turn as soon as next week. 

What happens to many of the current post, if Sasuke proves to be capable of keeping up with "current" Naruto, next chapter?

Not only would that allocate PS Madara to be stronger, but that would turn this already one sided affair, into a joke.

Karin is a none factor, and thus you have a two on one situation with Itachi and Sasuke vs. Nagato(Rape stomp taking into account Sasuke's current and near future feats), or a Madara and Sasuke vs. Naruto.(Again rape stomp, if the later proves to be on Naruto's level next week)


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 22, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> idk. if i were to guess, narutos bijudama would be 65% of the combined bijudama.


65%?  How did you get 65%? And guess what, if BM Naruto contributes 65% of the power, then BSM Naruto is going to be able to make a blast larger than the combined since adding Sennin powers* to an attack* *massively increases the strength and size of the attack.*



Shinobi no Kami said:


> the hachibis contribution was still significant, otherwise there would be no point to the combined bijudama.


sure, but how significant?



Shinobi no Kami said:


> the valley already did fit all of those things in it the moment after shinsuusenju carved it out.
> 
> after chojo kebetsu was used, the ground under shinsuusenju and the kyuubi collapsed. both of them fit just fine inside VOTE.
> 
> ...


um, none of that shows that the valley fit kurama, shinsuusenjuu, or mokujin in it.  We don't see any of the ground, we don't see any valley surrounding the constructs.  




Shinobi no Kami said:


> but it already did the moment, th moment after it was carved out by chojo kebetsu.


yet none of the scans you give show any type of valley, they simply show the constructs and kurama fighting, no valley is seen.  And here you simply ignore the scans that conclusively disprove your argument as we see how tall the valley actually is compared to madara and hashirama.  So no, you can't ignore scans that pretty much refute your entire argument especially if your argument simply pressuposes that it's true without giving any evidence (you pressupose they are fighting in a valley that the explosion created yet give no evidence for that).



Shinobi no Kami said:


> the combined bijudama didnt make a valley. do you think that 50% kyuubi can replicate VOTE with this?


BM NAruto =/= 50% Kurama and most definitely =/= 50% Kurama after it's chakra gets ripped out of itself.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> its not falsified since the valley already housed them in canon. just replace the strip of area that shinsuusenju and the kyuubi are in with a valley, and you have VOTE.


Yeah, the scans you show exhibit no valley at all, they simply show those constructs. 



Shinobi no Kami said:


> *the fan cant absorb or reflect anything if madara isnt channeling chakra or using jutsu *through it. what do you mean, "the rocks below Madara and Hashirama weren't damaged". 90% of the earths crust is rock. after the juubidamas explosion is done vaporizing anything in the immediate vicinity including the ground, what would be exposed? more rock obviously.


please support the bolded with an argument.

At the unbolded, if the rocks were indeed vaporzed, then the elevation of he ground in the barrier would be significantly lower than the surrounding elevation, yet none of that happens.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> @bold-
> 
> 
> 25+ mountain wide explosion for each going by your logic. the explosion itself doesnt matter anyway. the actual damage to the area is what matters.


yeah no, what you called a mountain is not a mountain especially if pieces of elevated rock at VoTe are so short and small that normal bijuudamas are half the height of them.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> you're just assuming the mountains at VOTE were smaller, because you want them to be.
> you can only see the tops in the mountains that are closer by in the scan due to how high the pic is and you can see the mountains in the back in full view due to how far back they are. there isnt any difference between the mountains.


No im not assuming they are smaller.  VoTe mountains are right next to the ocean, the mountains that the bijuudama destroyed were far into the continent.  Canonically the mountains next to the ocean are much smaller than the ones far inland.  In addition to that, we see how tiny those mountains are in multiple instances: 
-* mountain height compared to bijuudama/PS sword length* as you can see the mountains are shorter than the length of a PS sword.  Also mountain heights compared to rashoumon gates
- *size of the mountains compared to trees and such*
- *size of mountains close to the ocean compared to a standard bijuudama explosion*

Now compare those mountains to* the high end mountains that dwarf PS* despite being miles upon miles in the background.

All of those scans show that the mountains at VoTe were tiny compared to the high end mountains that bijuudamas have vaporized.  



Shinobi no Kami said:


> its the same high perspective here, where the the building at the front looks to be shorter than the other buildings in the back merely due to the height of the shot.


um what are you talking about?  I don't see a building in the front looking shorter than the building in the back.


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Sep 22, 2013)

Madara could solo this.

BSM naruto > EMS Madara? :lol EMS Madara already casually blocked a Yin + Yang Kyuubi Blast. Prove that adding Sage Mode to BM makes up for losing the other half, and EVEN THEN, we already saw that it didn't even scratch PS.

So you need to prove that adding Sage Mode much much much more than doubles BM Naruto's power, and quite frankly Naruto's sage chakra doesn't even come close to Kyuubi's.

Oh, and feats or gtfo.

Itachi and Sasuke gank Nagato.

why the hell is Karin there?


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 22, 2013)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Madara could solo this.
> 
> BSM naruto > EMS Madara? :lol EMS Madara already casually blocked a Yin + Yang Kyuubi Blast. Prove that adding Sage Mode to BM makes up for losing the other half, and EVEN THEN, we already saw that it didn't even scratch PS.


a bijuudama being fired form yin + yang kurama is irrelevant.  What determines the power of a bijuudama is not who fires it but the size of the bijuudama and the blast radius of the explosion.

None of the bijuudamas that kurama fired at VoTe came remotely close to the power of BM Naruto's bijuudama he used against the 5 jinchurikis (which wasn't even his max bijuudama).

Next, we know that adding sennin mode at least doubles (more like triple/quadruples) the size and thus power of techniques used by BM Minato, thus naruto's sennin mode bijuudamas would be at least double the size and power of his BM bijuudamas.



Gin Ichimaru said:


> So you need to prove that adding Sage Mode much much much more than doubles BM Naruto's power, and quite frankly Naruto's sage chakra doesn't even come close to Kyuubi's.


nobody needs to prove this.


----------



## Jagger (Sep 22, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But their depiction here suggest....
> 
> There continued stalemate, with Madara using solely EMS powers suggest....
> 
> ...


What is basically your point, lol? You're just running in circles now and confusing me with vague points. 

If it wasn't for Kyuubi, Madara would have got bitchslapped by Shinsuusenju. That's a canon fact no one should deny. Why do you think Madara brought the beast to the fight? For the lulz? Obviously no. He did because he knew that it was necessary to match Hashirama's powers, Madara is an arrogant person, but he's intelligent. 

Kurama is the strongest Bijuu by far compared to the other. Even 50% Kurama is doing much more than the Hachibi is doing and it was shown multiple times that, specially at chapter 571 when BM Naruto bitchslapped around those 5 Bijuu while Hachibi had troubles with them.

100% Kurama >>> The rest of the other Bijuu. Not Madara's fault Mokuton is the kryptonite to every Bijuu. 



> What is BSM Naruto's best feat? Getting soloed by a "Chakara sucking" tree?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


BSM Naruto is, theorically, much stronger than BM Naruto as it adds Senjutsu to the techniques. Proof of that is how BM Minato's Rasengan with Natural energy almost broke Juubito's shield and sent him flying like a fly. It is true he lacks feats currently, but the same goes for Edo Madara. He hasn't shown any impressive Mokuton feat nor any other Rinnegan power besides Preta Path and Rinne Tensei, yet, people put him in a much higher scale than EMS Madara when the feats are on the Madara with the Kyuubi by his side.

Yay, it can move! Congratulations, what is going to do? Run away from the battlefield to save himself? That barely proves anything, it's not even on Naruto's speed. Heck, even Sasuke's Susano'O is around the size of BSM Naruto's head. Just because they're standing together on the same panel rarely proves anything, honestly.

Sakura, Sasuke and Naruto has been put in a same panel. Does that mean Sakura catched up with Sasuke and Naruto?  Stop bringing such things as evidence.

BM Naruto is far more versatile than a rampaging Kyuubi who doesn't know how to focus his power unlike what Naruto is doing. This was canonically proved by Hachibi's statement about how Juubi seems 'stronger' than the Juubi alone.

You're underestimating Naruto here as well. But I do agree Madara and Hashirama get underrated as well.



> But Senjutsu outside of NARUTO BEING ABLE TO HARM OBITO, hasn't shown to add anything to Naruto's bag of tricks, yet.
> 
> This thread is premature, this discussion could take a left turn as soon as next week.
> 
> ...


Fugasaku outright told us Senjutsu enhances the user's abilities, that is a canon fact that can't be ignored. BSM Naruto should have enhanced speed as Asura was able to kill Asura Path without being seen, stronger physical strength since it killed Preta Path with once punch using Frog Kata and enhanced ninjutsu such as Bijuudama or Ransengan as shown with Minato.

That, I can agree. Neither Naruto nor Sasuke has been given a chance to go full out due circumstances. But EMS Madara have showed everything but maybe what he used to survive at VOTE. Edo Madara is what it needs to show more.

That will be BS on Kishi's part considering the huge gap between Naruto's and Sasuke's power currently. Even PS alone might not stand a chance against BSM Naruto, he needs more unless, somehow, Sasuke's PS is way far stronger than Madara's and I can't see that happening.

Naruto transfers his chakra to Nagato, without it, he might give the brothers problem, with it, he can put a stalemale or even win against them. BSM Naruto >= EMS Madara without the Kyuubi.


----------



## Psp123789 (Sep 22, 2013)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Madara could solo this.


EMS madara soloing BSM naruto and kyuubi cloak nagato?:rofl



> BSM naruto > EMS Madara? :lol EMS Madara already casually blocked a Yin + Yang Kyuubi Blast. Prove that adding Sage Mode to BM makes up for losing the other half, and EVEN THEN, we already saw that it didn't even scratch PS.


First of all that was a casual un charged TBB and second of all where did you get the idea that Madara tanked it without a scratch? He was constructing PS at that time so any damage shown would be repaired anyway. Super TBB spam and COFRS destroys PS and madara.



> So you need to prove that adding Sage Mode much much much more than doubles BM Naruto's power, and quite frankly Naruto's sage chakra doesn't even come close to Kyuubi's.


Nope not reall, BM by feats was already enough to destroy EMS madara. Nope nothing suggests that full kyuubi's chakra>sm infused kyuubi chakra. Kurama's TBB's don't even compare to what Naruto did with his super TBB.



> Oh, and feats or gtfo.
> 
> Itachi and Sasuke gank Nagato.
> 
> why the hell is Karin there?


Kyuubi cloak Nagato and KSM clones rape itachi and sausuke.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Sep 22, 2013)

Jagger said:


> I agree with you in that statement about EMS Madara = Base Hashirama, but SM Hashirama is superior to EMS Madara and it's been shown in canon that is indeed truth to the point Madara decided to use the Kyuubi to put himself on equal grounds with his rival who surpassed him with SM, I said "SM Hashirama is vastly superior to EMS Madara" in my post, not "Base Hashirama is vastly superior than EMS Madara" because that's not true. I agree with the Kyuubi part.
> 
> Yeah, people underrate BM Naruto lately, but going by the same token, they also overrate it sometimes.



I was agreeing with you, just adding to your points. 

Also, it's fine and dandy for people in this thread to use Perfect Susano'o shrugging off a Tailed Beast Bomb from full-sized Kurama as a solid durability feat, but* don't *go extrapolating it to form claims that it can now tank _anything_ and _everything_ from the likes of Tailed Beast Mode Naruto.

The power of Tailed Beast Bombs lie within their size, and the one that Perfect Susano'o was left unscratched by, is far smaller than even the one Naruto materialized within moments and fired to counter the other Tailed Beasts' own.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> 65%?  How did you get 65%? And guess what, if BM Naruto contributes 65% of the power, then BSM Naruto is going to be able to make a blast larger than the combined since adding Sennin powers* to an attack* *massively increases the strength and size of the attack.*


if you can show a said bijudama that BSM naruto threw out that is greater than what his BM counterpart created, then it will be accounted for. its the same way that people dont talk about a sage mode powered flower world when talking about an sm hashirama. BSM naruto only has senjutsu in his attacks. the power is no greater than BM unless his feats show otherwise.



> sure, but how significant?


significant enough that naruto cant do anything comparable to that on his own.



> um, none of that shows that the valley fit kurama, shinsuusenjuu, or mokujin in it.  We don't see any of the ground, we don't see any valley surrounding the constructs.



because of the smoke.



> yet none of the scans you give show any type of valley, they simply show the constructs and kurama fighting, no valley is seen.  And here you simply ignore the scans that conclusively disprove your argument as we see how tall the valley actually is compared to madara and hashirama.  So no, you can't ignore scans that pretty much refute your entire argument especially if your argument simply pressuposes that it's true without giving any evidence (you pressupose they are fighting in a valley that the explosion created yet give no evidence for that).


VOTE was created in the exact area that shinsuusenju hit. what was in the area that shinsuusenju hit? the kyuubi and shinsuusenju.



> BM NAruto =/= 50% Kurama and most definitely =/= 50% Kurama after it's chakra gets ripped out of itself.


naruto hasnt shown a bijudama better than the kyuubi which makes sense.



> Yeah, the scans you show exhibit no valley at all, they simply show those constructs.


smoke is surrounding the area. the valley was where shinsuusenju hit. the kyuubi and shinsuusenju were in the hit area therefore, both were in the valley.



> please support the bolded with an argument.


the only times it has reflected anything is when madara used jutsus through it.


> At the unbolded, if the rocks were indeed vaporzed, then the elevation of he ground in the barrier would be significantly lower than the surrounding elevation, yet none of that happens.


the elevation of the ground wasnt any different after the hachibi fired its bijudama at suigetsu.



> yeah no, what you called a mountain is not a mountain especially if pieces of elevated rock at VoTe are so short and small that normal bijuudamas are half the height of them.



yes, thats a mountain. thats just to show how large hashirama and madaras scale is.


> No im not assuming they are smaller.  VoTe mountains are right next to the ocean, the mountains that the bijuudama destroyed were far into the continent.  Canonically the mountains next to the ocean are much smaller than the ones far inland.


where did this nonsense come from?


> In addition to that, we see how tiny those mountains are in multiple instances:
> -* mountain height compared to bijuudama/PS sword length* as you can see the mountains are shorter than the length of a PS sword.


this doesnt show that a PS blade is bigger than a mountain. the PS blade is far higher than the base of the mountain. at most due to the levation and perspective, you can only say that the top of the mountain isnt as shorter than the PS blade.


> Also mountain heights compared to rashoumon gates
> - *size of the mountains compared to trees and such*


hashirama can summon mountain sized rashoumon. so what?


> - *size of mountains close to the ocean compared to a standard bijuudama explosion*


the mountains being close to the ocean is irrelevant. kuramas tbb didnt destroy a mountain close to the ocean anyway. hashirama and madaras fight wasnt close to the ocean until hashirama decided to go there.


> Now compare those mountains to* the high end mountains that dwarf PS* despite being miles upon miles in the background.
> all the mountains are pretty much the same size.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 22, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Matching the power of 5 tailed beasts with a TBB is still enough to damage Madara's PS. What? The explosion that naruto and the tailed beasts made and the combined TBB Naruto and Bee created were above that lvl. How is that way above naruto's lvl? SM enhances techniques so it's going to be even more powerful. First of all the attack destroyed madara's PS, second of all Super TBB's definitely match that in power, Even if Madara survives one naruto can just make another one and finish the job.


Based on what? How is matching the power of 5 tailed beasts with TBB related to damaging PS? You cannot explain such, such is why you're clinging to some nonchalant argument to validate your case.

SM enhances techniques, but it hasn't proven to enhance anything of BM Naruto's yet.

Current Naruto has yet to demonstrate much of anything, please oh please, wait to next chapter.



> The sword is protecting Madara who is in it, blocking it with the sword is protecting Madara and again any damage wouldn't be shown as Madara was constructing PS at this point.


LMAO, what?

PS was already fully materialized prior to taking on TBB

If TBB was effective in the slightest, we would have seen it here.



> Again a casual un charged TBB doesn't compare to a super one.


Really? Because I could have sworn...

Just read the panel. 

Note, the the above was hype to be of a higher potency than this, despite the size differentiation. 

Note, that I don't have much fate in any TBB, at this point, because despite the differentiation of size, charge level, user, etc, etc. Several shinobi's have survived head on assaults with the jutsu in question, here we're discussing if it's capable of damaging what is probably the second most durable thing in the manga.





> Uncharged "Juubi Bijudama" was cited too.now you're assuming it can tank it now? Pretty sure he was being teleported while that happened, and again the TBB exploded inside the juubi and push Hachibi back. Again you're comparing something that is far less powerful than a super TBB and why are you trying to use Bee for Madara's PS tanking feats? Sword strikes aren't more powerful than the juubi's laser, so naruto can tank them while PS can't tank multiple super TBB's. That was my point.


Charged, not charged, what's the difference? Failure exist for both. What's the difference, none of them have demonstrated the potency needed to damage a PS.

And while you may be right in regards to the first instance, Bee wasn't pushed back until after the explosion.(Note he's even missing a tooth following, the attack)

And no, the Juubi's Bijudama charged or not was cited to be on a different level, period.

And oh no, PS is far more durable than Hachibi. Hachibi was about to get killed by stage two/three Susano'o.

Hachibi isn't that durable, as we've seen on several occasions. But he has tanked Bijuudama, along with a few others.

As far as PS not being able to harm Naruto, uh no. Naruto didn't tank the Bijuu lasers smoothly, and Sasuke's feat this chapter also hypes Madara's Susano'o.



> Until you show me PS tanking something comparable to a super TBB, it's most likely getting destroyed and even if you argue it tanks 1, it isn't tanking 2 or 3.


Lol, until you can tell me what TBB has done, please oh please don't arbitrate it to be the answer to PS.




> When did I ever compare the 2 and look at the mountains in comparison to this explosion
> hypes Madara's Susano'o


Then please oh please stop allocating it to be the solution of anything. 

Naruto's TBB's don't have much going for them outside of destroying mountains.



> Again I said a super TBB is what destroys PS. They aren't comparable to what Naruto can do.


And super TBB hasn't the same merits as traditional TBB. Hell, super TBB doesn't even exist.

Not comparable to what Naruto can do? What has Naruto done? What Susano'o has he destroyed? What bodies has he copped with TBB? Better yet who has he harmed with a TBB?

Matching the output of five Biju's? Who have those Biju's harmed with a TBB? 

No matter the source, no matter the "Charge" level, TBB has a abysmal track record.



> That wasn't against PS, that was to prove your silly point wrong that naruto's TBB hasn't destroyed anything.


But Naruto hasn't destroyed anything.

He didn't destroy the 5 biju's with it did he? Much less a Susano'o.




> How is that even remotely involved with PS tanking a TBB? You're acting like Naruto standing next to Sasuke is suppose to mean something.


Oh it will, just wait to next chapter.

And please keep up with the discussion. Were not just debating in regards to TBB destroying PS. We're discussing Naruto's power level, currently.




> Again not even a reasonable argument as to how PS tanks a super TBB.....


Again, we're discussing more than just the former.

Again, it's you who needs to prove Naruto could destroy PS.
My case will either be made or broken, next chapter.



> One is not an explosive attack at all so I fail to see your point, Hell stab is a piercing technique, it pierces not explodes so your point doesn't really prove anything. Besides Naruto's TBB dwarfed the mountains, the same which were destroyed by casual TBB's. So mountain lvl destructive power is achievable just with a normal TBB and they can be spammed along with super TBB's.


And the one without an explosion did more damage, right?

What you should take from it, is that SIZE OF EXPLOSION MEANS NOTHING. What you should take for it, is that "Dwarfing Mountains" means little against tanking on a defensive constructs.

You seem to be presenting your case as if Naruto is free to do what he pleases against PS. Again, Sasuke's feat this chapter makes a strong case for Madara being able to damage Naruto, easily.

Note that you're focusing entirely on Naruto tanking on a Biju laser. Please read all the facts, buddy. Naruto was knock back by a far less potent attack. And note that Madara's swords were cited to slice through all creation.



> SAying Naruto's TBB is miserable isn't downplaying? Saying that because naruto is standing next to sausuke, Madara is stronger isn't downplaying?


No, saying Naruto's TBB is miserable based off it's performance in the manga isn't downplaying. And alluding to Naruto not being on PS Susano's level due to him being paired with a NONE PS SASUKE IS A VALID ARGUMENT.

The problem is that you can't seem to keep up with iphr0z3ni.



> PS hasn't shown anything that proves it's above Naruto while Naruto has shown power above PS. Sasuke standing next to naruto doesn't prove PS is stronger than BSM naruto. Matching 5 tailed beasts in power is one of Naruto's best TBB"s feats, along with him and bee's combined TBB. You keep relying on that casual Kyuubi TBB scan which doesn't compare to what naruto can make.


Lol, EMS Madara is depicted to be on the level of Hashirama.

Naruto is currently being paired with a NONE PS SASUKE,.
If Sasuke matches his performance next chapter, that essentially bodies your entire stance, right? As Sasuke with a none PS, would be on the level of Naruto.

I shouldn't have to point out the obvious to you, but seeing as you can't keep up with the discussion, it's obvious that I need to spell everything out for you to comprehend what I'm saying.

Matching 5 tails beasts in power is one of Naruto's best TBB feat, but it has nothing to do with PS. Matching 5 5tails bests in power has nothing to do with Naruto's current situation, in which is being paired with a none PS Sasuke.



> So failing against the strongest being in the manga who the sage of six paths struggled to defeat, who could own Madara without breaking a sweat proves Naruto can't destroy PS?


It wasn't the fact that he failed, he was the only one to fail. 
It wasn't the fact that he failed, it's to get you Naruto fans to HOLD ON, as Naruto's BSM showcasing thus far doesn't put him on the level of EMS Madara or Hashi, yet.

Note that, I'm attempting to downplay Naruto being on the level of EMS Madara, without the Kyuubi. Hence my reference to OTHER THINGS OUTSIDE OF DESTROYING PS. Please learn to debate, as you seems to have miss the point on many things.



> I guess you also forgot how Naruto escapes out of the technique likes 2 seconds later right?


I guess you miss the fact that it drained his chakara, and kept his BM in check.

Naruto could escape, but he'd have to power down to do so. Naruto could escape, but it took far longer than two seconds. Madara changed his target, and had a mini conversation with Naruto/Obito in that time span.



> Naruto is on their lvl because he matched 5 tailed beasts in power, tanking the juubi's TBB, knocking away 5 multi mountain busters with ease, moved faster than the 4th raikage, beat kages with his clones, and a lot more. No I'm basing my argument off of what naruto already shown in BM which is enough to beat EMS madara. Again why the hell are you suggesting that since Naruto is standing near sasuke, Madara is above him? What the hell kind of logic is that? Seriously dude.


Lol, the same tailed beast in which were captured by the Akatsuki?

I'm sorry but the manga doesn't depict Naruto to be on the level of Hashirama or Madara just yet, and his performance throughout the war supports that.

And it isn't about just Naruto standing next to Sasuke, it's what's implied.

Madara and Hashirama are here.

Naruto and Sasuke are here. Madara is certainly above Sasuke, right? Hence if Sasuke is able to keep up with current Naruto next chapter, it'll prove Naruto isn't yet on the level of Madara and Hashi.

I shouldn't have to spell out something for you.


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Sep 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> a bijuudama being fired form yin + yang kurama is irrelevant.  What determines the power of a bijuudama is not who fires it but the size of the bijuudama and the blast radius of the explosion.


So you're saying, being at half power makes no difference? Nope.



> None of the bijuudamas that kurama fired at VoTe came remotely close to the power of BM Naruto's bijuudama he used against the 5 jinchurikis (which wasn't even his max bijuudama).


Really? Prove it.



> Next, we know that adding sennin mode at least doubles (more like triple/quadruples) the size and thus power of techniques used by BM Minato, thus naruto's sennin mode bijuudamas would be at least double the size and power of his BM bijuudamas.


How do we know it doubles? You're saying sage mode by itself grants power equal to the 9 tails?

And if BSM Bijuudama = 2x BM Bijuudama, well then that pretty much means it is equal to the Bijuudama from Yin + Yang Kyuubi which PS DIDNT EVEN GET SCRATCHED BY.



> nobody needs to prove this


concession accepted


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 22, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> if you can show a said bijudama that BSM naruto threw out that is greater than what his BM counterpart created, then it will be accounted for. its the same way that people dont talk about a sage mode powered flower world when talking about an sm hashirama. BSM naruto only has senjutsu in his attacks. the power is no greater than BM unless his feats show otherwise.


Er, if we don't have any feats for naruto's bijuudama getting more powerful when he adds sennin mode to it, then we BOTH have a burden of proof to support that claim.  

And I have fullfilled my burden of proof to do so by showing you how much stronger a rasengan (which is just another form of bijuudama) gets when he empowers it with sennin mode.  

So unless you have some kind of argument for naruto's bijuudama not getting stronger when he adds sennin chakra to it, then my argument is the only supported one.

It doesn't matter if people don't take sage mode powers for flower tree world into account, that doesn't mean that what they argue is right.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> significant enough that naruto cant do anything comparable to that on his own.


Evidence?  arguments?  Reasoning?  And if not how CLOSE does he get?




Shinobi no Kami said:


> because of the smoke.


yeah no, smoke being present on the battlefield in no way shape or form means they are fighting in a valley that was created by the dama.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> VOTE was created in the exact area that shinsuusenju hit. what was in the area that shinsuusenju hit? the kyuubi and shinsuusenju.


Yet we see no valley around there and when we actually do see the valley that was created, it can't even fit kurama in it let alone shinsuusenjuu.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> naruto hasnt shown a bijudama better than the kyuubi which makes sense.


No it doesn't, Naruto's bijuudama that he quickly and casually made against neo pain is bigger than the one Kurama was about to use.  

It took naruto much longer to use his max one with bee, so we know that he can increase the size of the one he used against neo pain.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> smoke is surrounding the area. the valley was where shinsuusenju hit. the kyuubi and shinsuusenju were in the hit area therefore, *both were in the valley.*


the bolded in no way logically follows from the unbolded so nope.  Kishi explicitly showed us how big the valley actually was an it's nothing compared to what it requires to house those monstrocities.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> the only times it has reflected anything is when madara used jutsus through it.
> 
> the elevation of the ground wasnt any different after the hachibi fired its bijudama at suigetsu.


And how many times has it had an opportunity to reflect anything?  2 times?

and show me the ground that wasn't cratered by bee's bijuudama.  Was that ground in the AoE of the bijuudama?

It's irrelevant though since it has nothing to do with the point that the juubi's bijuudama did not destroy what it logically should have destroyed (the ground) and therefore we should expect it to logically destroy the fan (if it can even do that).




Shinobi no Kami said:


> yes, thats a mountain. thats just to show how large hashirama and madaras scale is.
> 
> where did this nonsense come from?


how about from any of the scans showing mountains close to the ocean and mountains far inland?  How about the scan of the V2 juubi's dama going off on mountains far larger than the ones in the foreground?



Shinobi no Kami said:


> this doesnt show that a PS blade is bigger than a mountain. the PS blade is far higher than the base of the mountain. at most due to the levation and perspective, you can only say that the top of the mountain isnt as shorter than the PS blade.


This does show the PS blade is TALLER than the mountain.  We can see the bottom of the ground in that very scan.  If you stand the blade on the ground, it's higher than the surrounding mountains plane and simple.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> hashirama can summon mountain sized rashoumon. so what?


rashoumons which are only 3 times taller than a normal bijuudama are mountain-sized?  That means the mountains are tiny.

Oh and since you completely ignored the scan you quoted, then i guess you concede then that based on the scan the mountains are tiny.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> the mountains being close to the ocean is irrelevant. kuramas tbb didnt destroy a mountain close to the ocean anyway. hashirama and madaras fight wasnt close to the ocean until hashirama decided to go there.


Flew right over your head didn't it?  Kurama's bijuudama explosion is far FAR larger than the mountains close to the ocean as you can see there.  That explosion was just a standard bijuudama which would mean a normal bijuudama can encompass a small mountain range if we call those mountains close to the ocean mountains.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> > Now compare those mountains to* the high end mountains that dwarf PS* despite being miles upon miles in the background.
> > all the mountains are pretty much the same size.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 22, 2013)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> So you're saying, being at half power makes no difference? Nope.


Of course the notion that every bijuudama fired from a bijuu with half the chakra of another is false.  The 2 tails fired a bijuudama that contained more power than one of the damas that BM Naruto fired against the juubi.  So unless you want to say that the 2 tails > BM Naruto, then no the power of the entity firing the dama's is irrelevant to the power of the dama.

Nope, I said that the power in general of a being who first a bijuudama is irrelevant to the power of the dama, as the only way to measure the dama's power is either by size of the dama or blast radius.

Now if you have any kind of argument that you want to use to rebut what I've just said, then please use it else it's would be you ignoring my arguments and thus a concession on your part.



Gin Ichimaru said:


> Really? Prove it.


okay.

*Size of Naruto's bijuudama compared to size of bijuu.  *

*Size of Kurama's bijuudama at VoTe.*

*Blast radius of* a *standard bijuudama.*

*Blast radius of Kurama's bijuudama at VoTe.*

As you can see BM Naruto's super dama is substantially larger than the dama Kurama fires at mokujin, and the blast radius of the dama that was fired at mokujin is comparable to the blast radius of the standard bijuudamas that neo pain were firing at Naruto.



Gin Ichimaru said:


> How do we know it doubles? You're saying sage mode by itself grants power equal to the 9 tails?


nope, I'm saying that SM ENHANCES any technique it's power is added to by at least 2 fold.  And we know it doubles by how much more powerful it makes naruto's or minato's techniques when the chakra is added to it.



Gin Ichimaru said:


> And if BSM Bijuudama = 2x BM Bijuudama, well then that pretty much means it is equal to the Bijuudama from Yin + Yang Kyuubi which PS DIDNT EVEN GET SCRATCHED BY.


Yeah you would have to either never read the Naruto manga or be mentally impaired in order to believe that any bijuudama fired form a more powerful bijuu is going to be stronger than any bijudama fired from a less powerful bijuu.





Gin Ichimaru said:


> concession accepted


Concession are only tacitly accepted when you have given a positive argument and the opponent ignores the argument.  You've given no positive argument for the argument that you are saying i have to prove therefore there you don't have a leg to stand on either, so there are no concessions to be accepted as neither of us have supported our side of the argument.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Er, if we don't have any feats for naruto's bijuudama getting more powerful when he adds sennin mode to it, then we BOTH have a burden of proof to support that claim.


umm, no. you are the only one burdened with proof as you actually need feats to support your stance.


> And I have fullfilled my burden of proof to do so by showing you how much stronger a rasengan (which is just another form of bijuudama) gets when he empowers it with sennin mode.


this is completely and utterly irrelevant. you cant post a feat of BSM naruto using any greater than what he could use in BM, so your argument isnt manga supported at all. 


> So unless you have some kind of argument for naruto's bijuudama not getting stronger when he adds sennin chakra to it, then my argument is the only supported one.


if your argument was manga supported, you would be able to show BSM naruto using a stronger bijudama than BM naruto.


> It doesn't matter if people don't take sage mode powers for flower tree world into account, that doesn't mean that what they argue is right.


in the battledome, only feats matter. if you want to extrapolate, go here: 





> Evidence?  arguments?  Reasoning?  And if not how CLOSE does he get?


stop trying to shift the burden of evidence. you are basically implying that naruto can replicate his combined bijudama with bee by himself.




> yeah no, smoke being present on the battlefield in no way shape or form means they are fighting in a valley that was created by the dama.


so you are basically saying that the valley was formed in the area that shinsuusenju hit, the kyuubi and shinsuusenju where in the hit area that collapsed but they werent in valley, purely due to your skepticism? nonsense.



> Yet we see no valley around there and when we actually do see the valley that was created, it can't even fit kurama in it let alone shinsuusenjuu.


the smoke the covered the battlefield removed the valley from view.



> No it doesn't, Naruto's bijuudama that he quickly and casually made against neo pain is bigger than the one Kurama was about to use.


you cant even prove this.


> It took naruto much longer to use his max one with bee, so we know that he can increase the size of the one he used against neo pain.


in both instances it took 3 panels.


> the bolded in no way logically follows from the unbolded so nope.  Kishi explicitly showed us how big the valley actually was an it's nothing compared to what it requires to house those monstrocities.


you are just playing the role of the extreme skeptic. the valley already housed those entities.



> And how many times has it had an opportunity to reflect anything?  2 times?


doesnt matter. the fan doesnt have feats of reflecting anything unless a jutsu is used through it. it doesnt get that ability.


> and show me the ground that wasn't cratered by bee's bijuudama.  Was that ground in the AoE of the bijuudama?



also, im pretty sure that tbbs have only been shown to make craters when the bombs directly hit the ground.


> It's irrelevant though since it has nothing to do with the point that the juubi's bijuudama did not destroy what it logically should have destroyed (the ground) and therefore we should expect it to logically destroy the fan (if it can even do that).



tbbs have only been shown to make craters when the bomb directly hits the ground.



> how about from any of the scans showing mountains close to the ocean and mountains far inland?  How about the scan of the V2 juubi's dama going off on mountains far larger than the ones in the foreground?


the scans dont show what you're saying.



> This does show the PS blade is TALLER than the mountain.  We can see the bottom of the ground in that very scan.  If you stand the blade on the ground, it's higher than the surrounding mountains plane and simple.


 of course you dont want to take perspective into account. 



> rashoumons which are only 3 times taller than a normal bijuudama are mountain-sized?  That means the mountains are tiny.


again, perspective. as seen in the bottom left panel, when the bijudama are actually shown making contact with the gates, the gates are far bigger than 3x larger than the PS blade. 
PS is mountain sized btw and the blade is about half the height of its body. you dont seem like you are taking into account that we are talking about 100% kurama. you dont seem to know about how big PS is.


> Oh and since you completely ignored the scan you quoted, then i guess you concede then that based on the scan the mountains are tiny.


the scan you posted was irrelevant. you only showed a scan of trees growing on a mountain, not a mountain being comparable to trees.



> Flew right over your head didn't it?  Kurama's bijuudama explosion is far FAR larger than the mountains close to the ocean as you can see there.  That explosion was just a standard bijuudama which would mean a normal bijuudama can encompass a small mountain range if we call those mountains close to the ocean mountains.



you still havent proved that the mountains close to the ocean are smaller than the ones inland.


> Really now?  So PS *not being even taller than mountains many miles in the background* while the shorter Kurama *rivals the height of VoTe mountains while on all fours* = mountains pretty much the same size?


PS is comparable to mountains. PS is comparable to the mountains seen in this scan.



> cmon now debate honestly.


 you should follow your own advice.



> debate honestly.



follow your own advice.


> does my post in anyway imply that there isn't a building at the front of the picture?


yes it does.


----------



## Stermor (Sep 22, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> It remains to be seen whether Naruto can actually break through perfect susanoo, although it is frequently (arbitrarily) assumed that he indeed can. If Naruto can't break through Perfect Susanoo, then EMS Madara will solo / protect the weaker Uchihas.
> 
> Sasuke and Naruto WILL be equals before this manga ends. Sasuke will probably have a powerful Susanoo. Naruto is not going to be  one-shotting Sasuke through his Susanoo when that day comes. I don't see why EMS Madara's Susanoo would be any different.



naruto can make bijuudama's so large that even if ps woudl survive that.. it would die from the fall damage to the bottem of the crater alone...........


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 22, 2013)

Jagger said:


> What is basically your point, lol? You're just running in circles now and confusing me with vague points.


Did allow me to spell it out for you then.

The Kyuubi may not been as much of a impact to Madara's arsenal as you are suggesting, you even hint at that in one of your points.



> If it wasn't for Kyuubi, Madara would have got bitchslapped by Shinsuusenju. That's a canon fact no one should deny. Why do you think Madara brought the beast to the fight? For the lulz? Obviously no. He did because he knew that it was necessary to match Hashirama's powers, Madara is an arrogant person, but he's intelligent.


Just like the previous times he fought Hashirama, oh wait.

I think you misunderstand how this manga works. Depiction is and will always be above any form of JUTSU. Thus, performances.......

Performances, will always be based on what Kishi want's to depict.

Madara was given the Kyuubi because he didn't have anything outside of PS, and Kishi wasn't willing to take the time.....

Note, that current Madara still uses the same trump card, but instead of the Kyuubi, he has the Rinnegan/Mokuton, which have not come into play against Hashi.



> Kurama is the strongest Bijuu by far compared to the other. Even 50% Kurama is doing much more than the Hachibi is doing and it was shown multiple times that, specially at chapter 571 when BM Naruto bitchslapped around those 5 Bijuu while Hachibi had troubles with them.


 Did you even read what I was arbitrating prior to getting in a "Defensive" stance?

Kurama is the least versatile of the nine Bijuu, as it's only shown BIJUUDAMA, hence is why VERSATILITY from the Rinnegan/Mokuton is considered above the RAW POWER from a 100% Kurama.

And note that Naruto needed some assistance against the 5 Bijuu's as well.

Finally, BM Naruto is vastly different from a 100% Kurama. Kurama without Naruto's aid cannot perform anything beyond Bijuudama, which is why it's significance to Madara's arsenal should be diminished. 



> 100% Kurama >>> The rest of the other Bijuu. Not Madara's fault Mokuton is the kryptonite to every Bijuu.


In raw power, sure. But PS already grants Madara all the raw power he'll ever need. Which is my point.




> BSM Naruto is, theorically, much stronger than BM Naruto as it adds Senjutsu to the techniques. *Proof of that is how BM Minato's Rasengan with Natural energy almost broke Juubito's shield and sent him flying like a fly.* It is true he lacks feats currently, but the same goes for Edo Madara. He hasn't shown any impressive Mokuton feat nor any other Rinnegan power besides Preta Path and Rinne Tensei, yet, people put him in a much higher scale than EMS Madara when the feats are on the Madara with the Kyuubi by his side.


Theoretics, A? How so? 

Raw power isn't an area in which BM Naruto lacked in, it's versatility that's keeping him from the top spot. And how does the "BOLD" prove anything? Senjutsu attacks are the only attacks capable of working against Obito.

And did you just suggest Madara hasn't shown any impressive Mokuton.
Please note, that he has about HALF of Mokuton's best feats.

It was Madara that established Mokuton as................

And Preda path was the most useful ability among Nagato's powers, it's the one that cripples several top tiers arsenal, it's what keeps him ahead of Itachi and a few others.

Again it's VERSATILITY THAT KEEPS HIM BELOW HASHIRAMA, AND EDO MADARA.

Edo Madara has options, and all of his options compliment each other. He has Susano'o to tank physical attacks, preda path to deal with Ninjutsu that are too much for Susano'o to handle. He has Large scale Katons, Meteors, and Mokuton for crowd control in addition to PS.

He also possesses the CLONE HAX, card.



> Yay, it can move! Congratulations, what is going to do? Run away from the battlefield to save himself? That barely proves anything, it's not even on Naruto's speed. Heck, even Sasuke's Susano'O is around the size of BSM Naruto's head. Just because they're standing together on the same panel rarely proves anything, honestly.


What's Naruto's speed going to do? Run away from the battlefield to save itself? I was alluding to the fact that PS, can MOVE TOO.

And No buddy. Sasuke's Susano'o is about the size of BSM Naruto. 



> Sakura, Sasuke and Naruto has been put in a same panel. Does that mean Sakura catched up with Sasuke and Naruto?  Stop bringing such things as evidence.


But Sakura never...

Let's revisit facts. Mr. Jagger good sir.

Where's Sakura here, here, here, here, here, here
(Naruto and Sasuke side by sides comparisons allude to equality)

This doesn't look good, as correlation alludes too.......

The fact that you believe Naruto is as big as Sasuke's FULL BODY SUSANO'O showcases just how much you're currently in denial you are to this possibility. 




> BM Naruto is far more versatile than a rampaging Kyuubi who doesn't know how to focus his power unlike what Naruto is doing. This was canonically proved by Hachibi's statement about how Juubi seems 'stronger' than the Juubi alone.


BM Naruto is far more versatile than rampaging Kyuubi simply because he can utilize jutsu that are not BIJUDAMA. It isn't that Kurama is unable to focus his power, it's because he only has one jutsu to his repertoire. 



> You're underestimating Naruto here as well. But I do agree Madara and Hashirama get underrated as well.


How so? Naruto isn't a versatile is Madara or Hashirama.

How so? Naruto hasn't been depicted on the level of Madara or Hashirama?

What's Naruto done? Has he soloed Obito, yet? Did he solo, Madara? Juubi? Juubito? 



> Fugasaku outright told us Senjutsu enhances the user's abilities, that is a canon fact that can't be ignored. BSM Naruto should have enhanced speed as Asura was able to kill Asura Path without being seen, stronger physical strength since it killed Preta Path with once punch using Frog Kata and enhanced ninjutsu such as Bijuudama or Ransengan as shown with Minato.


BMS Naruto "SHOULD" have allot of things, but there's a difference between "Should" and reality.

Naruto "should" have been running circles around MOST TOP TIERS, yet he hasn't.

Naruto "should" have been able to solo Obito, without the Juubi, but he didn't. 

Naruto "should" have been able to abuse clones in the same manner in which his fans "allude" too.

When will it sink in? You Naruto fans have been HIT WITH ENOUGH REALITY CHECKS, to start predicting in the manner of the manga.



> That, I can agree. Neither Naruto nor Sasuke has been given a chance to go full out due circumstances. But EMS Madara have showed everything but maybe what he used to survive at VOTE. Edo Madara is what it needs to show more.


But EMS Madara still has something over Sasuke.



> That will be BS on Kishi's part considering the huge gap between Naruto's and Sasuke's power currently. Even PS alone might not stand a chance against BSM Naruto, he needs more unless, somehow, Sasuke's PS is way far stronger than Madara's and I can't see that happening.


No, it wouldn't be BS, as you do not write the manga.

The difference between current Naruto's power and Sasuke's was the difference in the scale of their attacks. Sasuke's BEST SUSANO'O WAS MUCH SMALLER, than Naruto's BM.

Naruto was able to too.

Here, Kishi's seems to have remedied the size difference.(Hence the significance of the side by side comparison)

And Sasuke has just got his sea legs in the RAW POWER DEPARTMENT this chapter.(He may be just getting started, as he alludes too)

You don't know the full potential of Madara's Susano'o it's only been showcased for a few panels before being dismissed. 





> Naruto transfers his chakra to Nagato, without it, he might give the brothers problem, with it, he can put a stalemale or even win against them. BSM Naruto >= EMS Madara without the Kyuubi.


I disagree, but I need another a week to make a stronger case.


Please oh please be here next week. I have a feeling that you and your conglomerates are going to be using the KISHI BS card real soon.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 22, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> umm, no. you are the only one burdened with proof as you actually need feats to support your stance.


no, i don't strictly need direct feats of doing so support my stance, i need EVIDENCE or REASONING to support my stance which I have given.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but in this case we DO have evidence for the notion that Naruto's bijuudamas will get powered up at least 2 folds by adding senjutsu to it.  Thus if you don't agree you have a burden of proof to support your own stance with such.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> this is completely and utterly irrelevant. you cant post a feat of BSM naruto using any greater than what he could use in BM, so your argument isnt manga supported at all.
> 
> if your argument was manga supported, you would be able to show BSM naruto using a stronger bijudama than BM naruto.
> 
> in the battledome, only feats matter. if you want to extrapolate, go here:


In no way shape or form is any of what you just typed true.  The battledome isn't about only using feats, its basing arguments on feats, reason, evidence, hype and logic.  If Kakashi jutsu is stated to get a triple boost from kurama's chakra, then does that mean if another person gets the boost that their jutsu wouldn't get triple boosted as well unless it's stated or they actually get the feats of them doing so?  Of course not.

I can use your own logic against you: Has PS ever taken a super bijuudama from BM Naruto?  No. Then by your logic since it doesn't have the feats to do so, it wouldn't be able to do so, and thus it can't do so.  Yet why do you believe it can do so despite it not going up against a bijuudama?  Due to other feats and using reason, logic and evidence. Same applies to naruto's abilities as well.

Naruto doesn't need the feats of powering up his bijuudama with SM powers in order for him to be granted the ability to do so if we can show that when he does add SM powers to his jutsu, it becomes much stronger (a jutsu that is just a variant of the bijuudama at that).  

So no, naruto being able to do so is supported by the manga and my argument.  Now if you do not believe he can do so, you need to erect an argument to support your stance else your assertion is baseless.





Shinobi no Kami said:


> stop trying to shift the burden of evidence. you are basically implying that naruto can replicate his combined bijudama with bee by himself.


I'm not trying to shift the burden of evidence. I'm asking you to take a stance on how close naruto comes to doing so.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> so you are basically saying that the valley was formed in the area that shinsuusenju hit, the kyuubi and shinsuusenju where in the hit area that collapsed but they werent in valley, purely due to your skepticism? nonsense.


No, i'm basing it purely by what is shown in the manga.  We are shown how large the valley is so we know none of that stuff could have fit in the valley.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> the smoke the covered the battlefield removed the valley from view.


And when the valley came into view, we saw that none of that stuff could have fit in it, thus they couldn't have been in the valley.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> you cant even prove this.
> 
> in both instances it took 3 panels.


The one naruto made with bee took much longer than the one naruto made against the bijuus.  Naruto had been creating it offpanel during kakashi's talk and by the first time they showed the bijuudama on panel, it was already gigantic. 

Against the bijuus, naruto only started making it after neo pain had succeeded in making a gigantic one yet he still fired it off at the same moment they did.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> you are just playing the role of the extreme skeptic. the valley already housed those entities.


What in the world?  I'm in no way being skeptical, you are assuming that they are in the valley with no evidence, yet my arguments are backed up with CLEAR manga scans of how big the valley is.  That isn't the position of skepticism, I'm asserting a point and saying that my point is far more plausible than yours.  You are simply ignoring my own argument and evidence over and over since it completely and utterly dismantles your arguments, and then claim that i'm just playing super skeptic.  

now if i didn't propose any kind of counterargument, then sure I'd be playing the pure skeptic card, but I'm not.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> doesnt matter. the fan doesnt have feats of reflecting anything unless a jutsu is used through it. *it doesnt get that ability.*


The bolded does not logically follow from the unbolded, so no.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> also, im pretty sure that tbbs have only been shown to make craters when the bombs directly hit the ground.


Yeah so your scan does not show what you set out to prove: that the AoE of bee's bijuudama didn't make a crater in the ground it came into contact with.

In addition to that, if you want to argue that TBBs regardless of their power don't produce a crater unless they hit the ground, the burden of proof is on you to do so.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> tbbs have only been shown to make craters when the bomb directly hits the ground.


again, show burden of proof.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> the scans dont show what you're saying.


So you are saying that the mountains in the bottom right corner of *this scan* are not any smaller than the mountains all the way by the horizon?  Or that the mountains in the foreground are not far smaller than the mountains next to the bijuudama in *this scan?*



Shinobi no Kami said:


> of course you dont want to take perspective into account.


perspective most definitely has been taken into account.  Both the mountains in the foreground and background are shorter than the PS sword.  We are shown where the ground is by the animations of kicking up dust and the PS sword is taller than the mountains by a significant amount to account for any type of error so no.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> again, perspective. as seen in the bottom left panel, when the bijudama are actually shown making contact with the gates, the gates are far bigger than 3x larger than the PS blade.
> PS is mountain sized btw and the blade is about half the height of its body. you dont seem like you are taking into account that we are talking about 100% kurama. you dont seem to know about how big PS is.


The gates vs the blades are irrelevant we are comparing the mountains to the blades and it's clear as day to anyone looking at that scan honestly and objectively that the blade is easily taller than the surrounding mountains and PS thus by your own statement would be at least 2 times taller than those mountains while we see the mountains inland are even taller than PS.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> the scan you posted was irrelevant. you only showed a scan of trees growing on a mountain, not a mountain being comparable to trees.


I never said mountains are comparable in height to trees, I showed the trees compared to the surrounding mountains in order to gauge how big the mountains are by using the trees as a reference and the scan that you ignored clearly showed how small those surrounding mountains are.  So are you going to argue that PS is significantly shorter than* the mountains in this scan?*  If not then concede the point.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> you still havent proved that the mountains close to the ocean are smaller than the ones inland.


yes i most definitely have, you've basically stooped to flat out ignoring the scans that i've posted.  No one in their right mind can honestly and objectively say that the mountains pointed to by the blue arrows are as large as the mountains the yellow arrows are pointing to.


If you can't even accept that, then there's really no point in arguing anything in this thread with you as you've pretty much stooped to he level of ignoring anything you want to ignore in a scan.  And thus no type of argumentation based on scaling or sizing of any kind can be accomplished by that level of dishonesty.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> PS is comparable to mountains. PS is comparable to the mountains seen in this scan.


well since your post has nothing to do with what my argument you've just quoted, then you would agree that the mountains at VoTe are much smaller than the ones that are inland since PS is shorter than the ones inland, yet Kurama is almost as tall as the mountains at VoTe while on all fours.  

Your post of PS being comparable to mountains has nothing to do with the logic of what I've just posted, so it would be you agreeing with my post and accepting its conclusion.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> you should follow your own advice.


- says the guy who wholeheartedly asserts Sasuke's V2 susanoo can take 13 FRS without even getting scratched
- says the guy who 



Shinobi no Kami said:


> yes it does.


Oh well, then show me, go back quote my post and show me where I implied that there are/is NO buildings in the foreground.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 22, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Vaporizing mountains has nothing to do wtih breaking PS? Seriously you're still clinging to your weird logic.


It doesn't unless you're suggesting mountains represent Susano'o? Kirin vaporized a mountain, yet was only marginally successful against a lower scale Susano'o.



> It enhanced minato's rasengan.


Lol, it did? Looks the same to me



> Lol those two versions are not the same. You can clearly see the difference between the 2 in the scans you showed me.


But the later is clearly the former manifested upon Kurama. I don't think the former would have been capable of doing the later, had TBB been a success. 



> Hype doesn't matter and since when was a casual 100% TBB hyped up to be more powerful than the combined TBB with Naruto and Bee? Kurama hasn't shown power equal to what BM naruto has and 50% kyuubi with his chakra sucked is still capable of doing this * the mountains in this scan?*. BSM Naruto should have lots of more power than this. Naruto's BSM cloak by feats is more durable than PS.


Hype supported by facts > Some fanboys opinion.

The Juubi's TBB was hyped to be above Naruto and Bee's.....

And note you are suggesting Kurama hasn't show power equal to himself with the panel in question, right?

Naruto's BSM cloak by feats isn't more durable than PS, as they've not been pitted against the same kinds of attacks.



> This is a casual un charged TBB * the mountains in this scan?* Now see what happens when they're charged * the mountains in this scan?* Pretty big difference to me. The super TBB has. The TBB exploded in the juubi. He only tanked a bit of it.


I don't care about a charged TBB, THEY'VE ALL FAILED.

What is your evidence to support it being capable of damaging Susano'o?




> Uhh where did I say the juubi's TBB wasn't on another lvl? I was comparing Naruto's super TBB to Bee's TBB not the juubi's............


Uh where did I suggest or even hint was was pitting Naruto's TBB against Bee's?



> Wait how do you know the attack would have killed the hachibi when it didn't kill him?


You serious? 

There's a reason why Naruto came to the rescue.



> Doesn't matter, the cloak was still intact after the juubi's laser so he tanked it. Those durable tailed combined with Naruto's reactions would easily protect him from PS strikes. All he did was jump and cut a big branch in half.


The cloak clearly wasn't intact, no more than Sasuke's Susano'o after doing this.

Naruto lost his tails attempting to tank an attack of that magnitude, the chances of him surviving an addition attack aren't very high.

Are you alluding to NARUTO BEING ABLE TO HIT MADARA'S SUSANO'O WITH A SECOND OR THIRD Bijudama? Why can't Madara chop down Naruto's BM? As far as easily protecting Naruto from Madara's strikes, I doubt it.

You alluded to Bijudama being able to disintegrate a mountain, well Madara's Susano'o cut several in half.

That's as good as any Bijudama feat, and Sasuke's feat this chapter only strengthens Madara's own.



> What it destroyed multiple mountains and forests easily. Idk what else to show you. PS hasn't tanked power on that lvl so it's most likely going to get damaged or destroyed. The charge time obviously decides how powerful the TBB is. I'm not going to debate this terrible point as following this logic you can't prove that a TBB can destroy a regular human or a frog. They destroyed multiple mountains with ease. That's all that is needed.


PS has tanked a TBB.

Stop picking and choosing feats, stop avoiding double standards. If your argument is TBB can disintegrate a mountain therefore it could damage PS. Then PS can cut a mountain therefore it can damage BM Naruto.

TBB has destroyed mountain ranges, but failed to replicate just that against several individuals. Which is my point.

TBB is no more the answer for PS, than it was Hachibi, Orochimaru, Deva, Suigetsu, etc. etc.



> Why do you say it has an "abysmal" track record? It has destroyed countries and multiple mountain ranges. I don't see why you're trying to prove it's a miserable technique. He didn't want to kill them he wanted to free them so why would he shoot a TBB directly at them. I don't even know what you're trying to prove anymore............


It has failed to kill hardly anyone on panel.

Destroying a country? So did Sasori's army. Yet it was bested by two people.

Mountains ranges are cute, but they've BEEN UTILIZED TO HYPE EVERYTHING. Kirin was the first jutsu to start this "DESTROYING MOUNTAIM" trend, but it failed miserably against Susano'o. TBB would go on to repeat this failing against MERE MORTALS time and time again.

And what is this "didn't want to kill them" babble you're reciting? He wanted to kill Obito, Madara, and the Juubi, but thus far that hasn't manifested into anything productive.

Naruto's TBB has an lest than stellar track record, which is why you keep bringing up the same feats.

Mountains do not represent PS.
Other TBB do not represent PS.

PS was only destroyed by something IN WHICH TANKED SEVERAL TBB.



> One is a piercing technique tech and one is an explosive one. It's like rasegan and chidori dude. That's not always the case so I don't know what you're trying to prove. Are you saying that the size of the explosion has nothing to do with the power? What? Dude it was not only large but it vaporized mountains as well. All he did was cut a big branch in half lol. What does that prove?


And the explosive one failed, right, despite having a larger AOE.

What I'm trying to prove is simple. The size of attack doesn't measure it's effectiveness against a jutsu.

Tsunade legs had far more success against Stage two/thee Susano'o than the Juubi's nuke.




> All it did was knock him back, he was perfectly fine and fired off Tbb's after that like nothing. So now you're trying to say Madara can destroy the universe with his PS??


Hence another blemish of TBB resume.



> Vaporizing Mountain ranges is pathetic? Seriously dude. No it's not a valid argument, I don't even know where you got the idea that it is.


It's not pathetic, it's just WELL...OLD.

Overall, overall, OVERALL, Naruto's success with TBB has been sub-par. 




> No I'm not having any trouble with keeping up with you at all.........also why are you talking in the third person about yourself? Seriously that's not needed and you're starting to freak me out.


You are, as you portray arguments in which is not being presented.(Naruto's Bijudama vs. Hachibi's?)

I talk in third person because I'm Iphr0z3nI, and such is what I do.



> With Kurama, without it he's not on his lvl.


I disagree, and unfortunately for you the manga supports me.

Naruto hasn't been hinted or depicted to be above EMS Madara.

EMS Madara is depicted to be on par with the GOD of SHINOBI AS WE SPEAK.



> But the next chapter hasn't come out yet now has it? I'm basing this off of current feats dude and sakura was also paired with naruto and sasuke so I guess all 3 are equal. Again terrible logic.


See my response to the other poster.

You're comparing Sakura to Sasuke, seriously?

Sasuke being paired with Naruto has always equated to equality, thus is why my stance here is significant.




> Can't keep up with the discussion? Are you trolling? Seriously all you have been doing is trying to use complete BS like Naruto being paired with sasuke as a logical argument when it really doesn't mean anything. Please stop using this shitty logic and then act like you proved something.


And all you have been doing is wasting my times with the same sing and dance. 

You seeks to defend Naruto, but you don't have the appropriate tools to do so. Naruto hasn't been hinted to be above PS, his feats have not showcased him to be.

You cite the Next chapter hasn't arrived in regards to my Sasuke argument, but the same can be said for your Naruto argument. BSM Naruto as of now, was the only relevant character soloed by the tree last chapter.

What performances of BSM Naruto are you using to support your thesis? Why do you keep referring to BSM Naruto yet still forced to utilize the feat from BM Naruto? 

And the pairing argument is a logical one, as it alludes to the possibility of Naruto being showcased to on the same level as his PARTNER, who is currently below PS Madara. I've spelled this out quite vividly.




> Again you're still claiming that this naruto sasuke pairing means anything. It really doesn't.


It has in the past.
As recent as 641.

Sasuke even took "Daddy's Place"



> Naruto has shown feats that put him on hashirama's and madara's lvl. Period.


The same Hashirama that soloed PS and Kyuubi? Who has Naruto soloed? 



> No all you've been doing is using shitty logic to try and prove something. You're the one that needs to learn how to debate if you think any of your arguments make any sense at all.


Shitty logic, yet you don't add up.

What's your argument thus far? "Vaporized Mountains" "Matched 5 Biju's
But yet he hasn't matched Madara or Hashirama.

But yet he seems to be struggling between looking like a god and a child.
It was Sasuke who needed to give him a pep talk this chapter. It was Sarutobi who needed to save him last chapter.

Hashirama and Madara have never stopped being depicted as GODS, as recent as 




> So what, it didn't capture Naruto so therefore it failed and Now that Naruto has knowledge he can destroy it with a simple chakra roar.


And Naruto's TBB failed to kill anything but mountain ranges, therefore it failed SEVERAL TIMES. 

And destroy it with a simple chakara roar? Yea, that's not happening.

He was attacked by wood again last chapter, did he destroy that with a simple "Chakara roar"?


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 22, 2013)

> By feats Naruto is on Madara's and hashirama's lvl. You're trying to use bullshit like Naruto getting owned by a god and him standing near sasuke as logical arguments. I still don't see why you're trying to use this to back up your argument. It still doesn't make any sense.


How so, when so many of his feats have resulted in failure?

Naruto has a excellent support system, and he's a very powerful shinobi, however on Madara and Hashirama lvl ATM, he is not. How, how can I believe Naruto to be on the level of Hashirama and Madara, if things like this is still happening to him.(All that speed, all the hype in the previous chapter brought to a whopping halt in the span of a chapter)

Naruto fans hype Naruto to be on the level of Madara and Hashirama in 645, but weren't able to be SEEN OR HEARD FROM IN 646. Even now, much of your presence exist in the battledome, you wouldn't dream of posting a Naruto is on Hashirama/Madara level in the library.(That's because you know you are alone in this belief, atm)



 And note it isn't just him standing next to Sasuke, it's him being paired with a person who doesn't possess a PS, and the possibility of being portrayed as equal to that partner.

Naruto standing next to Sasuke in KCM resulted in comparable showcasing with Sasuke. This ROUND TWO, this WHAT MAY HAPPEN AS SOON AS NEXT CHAPTER is very relevant. Far more relevant than some feats Naruto performed almost a hundred chapters ago. 



> I need you to spell out your arguments out because of how terrible and weird they are, honestly I don't even know what you're trying to prove ever since you strayed away from Madara tanking a super TBB.


But you can't dispute them outside of the "Bash" tactic.

Note, I've been doing this far to long, I know the tricks and trades.

My arguments aren't weird just because you can't dispute them.

Standing next to Sasuke was never my argument to begin with, that's that questionable reading comprehension lvl on your part. It's being paired with a person who doesn't have PS, yet. If Naruto fails to outperform Sasuke, as he did in his KCM state, the idea of him being above someone who is ABOVE SASUKE IS LUDICROUS. It's not  a hard message to comprehend it's just a reality you don't want to face at the moment. Hence is why you cite "Next chapter hasn't come" yet, cling to possibilities in which BSM Naruto hasn't displayed.


----------



## Psp123789 (Sep 22, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> t doesn't unless you're suggesting mountains represent Susano'o? Kirin vaporized a mountain, yet was only marginally successful against a lower scale Susano'o.


 It didn't vaporize an entire mountain first of all and what kirin did is more comparable to a FRS not a TBB. Again PS never showed the feats required to be able to tank such power.




> Lol, it did? Looks the same to me


You can clearly see the size difference.




> But the later is clearly the former manifested upon Kurama. I don't think the former would have been capable of doing the later, had TBB been a success.


The susano'o wasn't covering kurama in armor, it was still a lvl 4 susano'o not PS. PS was shown directly after the blast.




> Hype supported by facts > Some fanboys opinion.
> 
> The Juubi's TBB was hyped to be above Naruto and Bee's.....
> 
> ...


Feats and hype>hype. I never said the juubi's TBB wasn't above naruto's and bee's. I was talking about a casual 100% kurama TBB. Jinchuriki and bijuu>bijuu. No I said the power that kurama has showed doesn't compare to what Naruto has shown with his TBB's in BM. Unless you can show me PS tanking something like the juubi's laser, not it's not. No again ridiculous logic, I already said by current feats you can't use that as an excuse to why naruto isn't more durable than Madara.




> I don't care about a charged TBB, THEY'VE ALL FAILED.
> 
> What is your evidence to support it being capable of damaging Susano'o?
> 
> ...


Again your logic is terrible, they haven't failed against anything. It's a mountain range buster and PS never tanked something like that. So he's not walking off 1 or 2 or 3. You were using bee's TBB tanking feats for Madara when he hasn't tanked anything near what naruto can use. He could have been damaged not killed for all you know.




> The cloak clearly wasn't intact, no more than Sasuke's Susano'o after doing this.
> 
> Naruto lost his tails attempting to tank an attack of that magnitude, the chances of him surviving an addition attack aren't very high.
> 
> Are you alluding to NARUTO BEING ABLE TO HIT MADARA'S SUSANO'O WITH A SECOND OR THIRD Bijudama? Why can't Madara chop down Naruto's BM? As far as easily protecting Naruto from Madara's strikes, I doubt it.


 Naruto blocked it with his tails to protect the part of the cloak he was in. He's also able to grow them back. Naruto has great agility even in his cloak. All he has to do is dodge or block the swords strikes and use a super TBB. The 1st one would have done enough damage anyway.



> You alluded to Bijudama being able to disintegrate a mountain, well Madara's Susano'o cut several in half.
> 
> That's as good as any Bijudama feat, and Sasuke's feat this chapter only strengthens Madara's own.
> 
> ...


Except Naruto has shown the ability to tank that kind of power while Madara hasn't. No it doesn't mean anything, he hasn't shown anything besides cutting a big branch in half.




> Stop picking and choosing feats, stop avoiding double standards. If your argument is TBB can disintegrate a mountain therefore it could damage PS. Then PS can cut a mountain therefore it can damage BM Naruto.


That's not my argument. My argument is by current feats PS has never tanked something like a super TBB so it's most likely going to get destroyed and since Naruto tanked a mountain range buster and has great speed, mere swords would not kill him. What don't you understand about that?



> TBB has destroyed mountain ranges, but failed to replicate just that against several individuals. Which is my point.
> 
> TBB is no more the answer for PS, than it was Hachibi, Orochimaru, Deva, Suigetsu, etc. etc.
> 
> ...


What am I reading???? Seriously again you're using this same stupid argument. If an attack destroys the moon but failed to destroy the sun and Jupiter and the galaxy and the universe would you say because of this it is a miserable technique? That it wouldn't work against PS because it failed against all of these despite PS no showing the ability to tank it? The TBB destroyed the country in an instant not over time.



> Mountains ranges are cute, but they've BEEN UTILIZED TO HYPE EVERYTHING. Kirin was the first jutsu to start this "DESTROYING MOUNTAIM" trend, but it failed miserably against Susano'o. TBB would go on to repeat this failing against MERE MORTALS time and time again.
> 
> And what is this "didn't want to kill them" babble you're reciting? He wanted to kill Obito, Madara, and the Juubi, but thus far that hasn't manifested into anything productive.
> 
> Naruto's TBB has an lest than stellar track record, which is why you keep bringing up the same feats.


Actually it completely destroyed it. Not even going to waste my time reading this, TBB destroys mountain ranges PS can't tank it by feats so it gets damaged or destroyed. No he didn't want to kill the tailed beasts which was what I was talking about. I'm bringing up the same feats because they prove that it can destroy madara's PS which you have yet to counter.



> Mountains do not represent PS.
> Other TBB do not represent PS.
> 
> PS was only destroyed by something IN WHICH TANKED SEVERAL TBB.


Yeah the mountains represent what's going to happen to PS after it gets hit. Naruto can match the amount of power that destroyed PS, why does it matter that it tanked TBB's?




> And the explosive one failed, right, despite having a larger AOE.
> 
> What I'm trying to prove is simple. The size of attack doesn't measure it's effectiveness against a jutsu.
> 
> Tsunade legs had far more success against Stage two/thee Susano'o than the Juubi's nuke.


Again one is a piercing attack and one isn't. Never said it did I'm just saying that's not always the case. The juubi's nuke wasn't even directed at Madara..........





> It's not pathetic, it's just WELL...OLD.
> 
> Overall, overall, OVERALL, Naruto's success with TBB has been sub-par.


What do you mean old?? TBB destroy mountain ranges so since da PS cant survive dat it get da broken. Seriously I can't make that point any simpler. Doesn't really matter it destroyed mountains ranges



> You are, as you portray arguments in which is not being presented.(Naruto's Bijudama vs. Hachibi's?)


Nope you were using bee's tanking feats for Madara and since that power doesn't compare to what Naruto can do it doesn't prove much.





> I disagree, and unfortunately for you the manga supports me.
> 
> Naruto hasn't been hinted or depicted to be above EMS Madara.
> 
> EMS Madara is depicted to be on par with the GOD of SHINOBI AS WE SPEAK.


Nope the manga clearly shows that Madara needed kurama to fight against Hashirama and he still lost. By feats he is so it doesn't really matter. No you mean edo madara.




> You're comparing Sakura to Sasuke, seriously?
> 
> Sasuke being paired with Naruto has always equated to equality, thus is why my stance here is significant.


They were all standing next to each other so by your logic.... Seriously you're still talking bullshit. That has nothing to do with breaking PS.





> And all you have been doing is wasting my times with the same sing and dance.
> 
> You seeks to defend Naruto, but you don't have the appropriate tools to do so. Naruto hasn't been hinted to be above PS, his feats have not showcased him to be.
> 
> You cite the Next chapter hasn't arrived in regards to my Sasuke argument, but the same can be said for your Naruto argument. BSM Naruto as of now, was the only relevant character soloed by the tree last chapter.


You're wasting my time with your terrible arguments. Nope I already proved Naruto can destroy PS and can tank PS strikes while you keep bringing up sasuke and naruto standing next to each other. Already said by current feats. You mean the GOD tree right? 



> What performances of BSM Naruto are you using to support your thesis? Why do you keep referring to BSM Naruto yet still forced to utilize the feat from BM Naruto?
> 
> And the pairing argument is a logical one, as it alludes to the possibility of Naruto being showcased to on the same level as his PARTNER, who is currently below PS Madara. I've spelled this out quite vividly.


BSM Naruto is still BM naruto but enhanced by senjutsu. No it's not, I don't give a shit about who he is paired with, by current feats Naruto destroys ems madara. Period.





> It has in the past.
> As recent as 641.
> 
> Sasuke even took "Daddy's Place"


 again I don't care about the pairings. They don't prove anything and yet you're still clinging to them.




> The same Hashirama that soloed PS and Kyuubi? Who has Naruto soloed?


Idk 5 bijuus. 




> Shitty logic, yet you don't add up.
> 
> What's your argument thus far? "Vaporized Mountains" "Matched 5 Biju's
> But yet he hasn't matched Madara or Hashirama.
> ...


My argument is that since Naruto can destroy mountain ranges and since PS can't tank that, it most likely gets destroyed. I really don't care about all that right now because it isn't relevant to what I'm debating.



> Hashirama and Madara have never stopped being depicted as GODS, as recent as


Doesn't matter by feats EMS madara loses to Naruto.





> And Naruto's TBB failed to kill anything but mountain ranges, therefore it failed SEVERAL TIMES.
> 
> And destroy it with a simple chakara roar? Yea, that's not happening.
> 
> He was attacked by wood again last chapter, did he destroy that with a simple "Chakara roar"?


I don't know what you're trying to prove with this, it still destroyed mountain ranges and is powerful technique. How is the Wood dragon equal to the god tree??


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## Psp123789 (Sep 22, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> How so, when so many of his feats have resulted in failure?
> 
> Naruto has a excellent support system, and he's a very powerful shinobi, however on Madara and Hashirama lvl ATM, he is not. How, how can I believe Naruto to be on the level of Hashirama and Madara, if things like this is still happening to him.(All that speed, all the hype in the previous chapter brought to a whopping halt in the span of a chapter)


He's matched 5 tailed beasts, his clones took out kages, he tanked the juubi's laser, he beat the wood dragon, he stopped madara from killing bee, he figured out how to damage obito, ect. 
You're still relying on Naruto's bad feats when he has more good ones.



> Naruto fans hype Naruto to be on the level of Madara and Hashirama in 645, but weren't able to be SEEN OR HEARD FROM IN 646. Even now, much of your presence exist in the battledome, you wouldn't dream of posting a Naruto is on Hashirama/Madara level in the library.(That's because you know you are alone in this belief, atm)


Actually he was on their lvl before it. Lol ok whatever, I really don't give a shit about what you're talking about here.




> And note it isn't just him standing next to Sasuke, it's him being paired with a person who doesn't possess a PS, and the possibility of being portrayed as equal to that partner.
> 
> Naruto standing next to Sasuke in KCM resulted in comparable showcasing with Sasuke. This ROUND TWO, this WHAT MAY HAPPEN AS SOON AS NEXT CHAPTER is very relevant. Far more relevant than some feats Naruto performed almost a hundred chapters ago.


Possibility. Again what will you do if sasuke shows he stronger then Madara and hashirama next chapter? Then what will you say If naruto shows he's stronger or equal to him?




> But you can't dispute them outside of the "Bash" tactic.
> 
> Note, I've been doing this far to long, I know the tricks and trades.
> 
> My arguments aren't weird just because you can't dispute them.


They're weird because they don't make any sense and aren't relevant to what we're debating.



> Standing next to Sasuke was never my argument to begin with, that's that questionable reading comprehension lvl on your part. It's being paired with a person who doesn't have PS, yet. If Naruto fails to outperform Sasuke, as he did in his KCM state, the idea of him being above someone who is ABOVE SASUKE IS LUDICROUS. It's not  a hard message to comprehend it's just a reality you don't want to face at the moment. Hence is why you cite "Next chapter hasn't come" yet, cling to possibilities in which BSM Naruto hasn't displayed.


It was your argument once you strayed away from PS vs super TBB. I don't give a shit who he's paired with again I'm debating with current feats , if you're going to keep relying on that same bullshit portrayal argument then it's a waste of my time debating with you. I'm using things that have already happened while you're using assumptions that might happen. There's a difference that YOU can't seem to comprehend.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 22, 2013)

HOLY SHIT.
Uchiha fans have lost all dignity and have hit rock bottom. The arguments made by them in this thread prove it.

All I see is scrambling. Like fucking rats.

Only what...2 more days left? Haha! Allow them to have their final days before BSM Naruto destroys their minds. Its the least we can do.


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## Jagger (Sep 22, 2013)

Man, I'd reply to you (IpHr0z3nI), but I honestly hate walls of text.  I might reply later, but I won't keep replying in this thread until the new chapter and show new feats.


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