# EMS Madara vs Prime Nagato



## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 10, 2014)

Location: Valley of the end

Starting distance: 150 meters

MindSet: Cool

Restrictions: Neither Opponents can summon any beasts and Madara doesn't have any of the powers he stole from Hashirama.

Clarification: Both opponents are fully rested before the fight. They are both alive.

Edit: Neither opponents have knowledge. Since they both lived in different eras. Also I am letting Nagato be able to summon beasts. Due to the constant one liner PS swings it's sword.

Madara still can't summon Kurama.


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## Kyu (Jan 10, 2014)

PS swings its sword.


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## Ersa (Jan 10, 2014)

Madara makes his 2km Perfect Susanoo. 

-He swings.
-Nagato repels it with CST.
-Madara nods in approval.
-He swings again.
-Nagato dies.

Seriously I'd consider Nagato borderline top tier but he simply is outgunned here. Perfect Susanoo just shits all over him.


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## adeshina365 (Jan 10, 2014)

Perfect Susanoo ends this.


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## Chad (Jan 10, 2014)

Madara is superior in every stat.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 10, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> Madara makes his 2km Perfect Susanoo.
> 
> -He swings.
> -Nagato repels it with CST.
> ...



How does Nagato lose all of his chakra after deflecting it once? Im pretty sure their chakra reserves are very similar. Don't forget Madara doesn't have 1st hokage cells and Nagato by genetics has tons and tons of chakra. 

Also if Madara swung again im pretty sure Nagato could just deflect it again. Sure there is the 5 second limit but im pretty sure Madara will get flung back by CST giving Nagato more time to block the next attack.


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## adeshina365 (Jan 10, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> *How does Nagato lose all of his chakra after deflecting it once?* Im pretty sure their chakra reserves are very similar. Don't forget Madara doesn't have 1st hokage cells and Nagato by genetics has tons and tons of chakra.
> 
> Also if Madara swung again im pretty sure Nagato could just deflect it again. Sure there is the 5 second limit but im pretty sure Madara will get flung back by CST giving Nagato more time to block the next attack.


It isn't an issue of chakra reserves; CST is a technique which shortens Nagato's lifespan and left Deva path's abilities unusable for an extended duration of time. Even for a healthy Nagato, CST isn't a technique that can be spammed.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 10, 2014)

adeshina365 said:


> It isn't an issue of chakra reserves; CST is a technique which shortens Nagato's lifespan and left Deva path's abilities unusable for an extended duration of time. Even for a healthy Nagato, CST isn't a technique that can be spammed.


Oh I thought the other guy was talking about the regular almighty push.


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## Bonly (Jan 10, 2014)

As always in the Nagato vs EMS Madara(without Kurama) thread I always see it that with PS Madara would eventually win, actually that is Madara's only way of winning. So if PS+Kurama is aloud then Madara wins, without both then he loses so yeah Madara wins more times then not here.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 10, 2014)

Nothing suggest that Nagato still has that interval that his 6 paths of pains had and Nagato should take this because even if Madara puts up PS Nagato can just BT him out of it and from their his only hope of winning is out the door


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## LostSelf (Jan 10, 2014)

Nagato dominates until Madara brings out PS.

After that happens Nagato CST PS's feets, sending it to the floor and absorbs it. He becomes Omega Nagato and ends this with Spirit Bomb.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 10, 2014)

EMS Madara even without PS still had Kuchiyose: Kyuubi as his personal summon.

EMS Madara also solo'd both Mu and young Onoki without apparently over exerting himself either.

I don't see Madara being "dominated" or worried at any juncture in this battle. 

Not to say Nagato isn't going to pressure him... but IC Madara's going to play down to his competition here.


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## LostSelf (Jan 10, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> EMS Madara even without PS still had Kuchiyose: Kyuubi as his personal summon.
> 
> EMS Madara also solo'd both Mu and young Onoki without apparently over exerting himself either.
> 
> ...



Madara cannot summon in this fight since Kyuubi is restricted. Therefore without PS nothing Madara throws will be effective against Nagato.

Susano'o would be absorbed, Katon would be absorbed, genjutsu is not happening with Nagato's sensing, and CqC is suicidal with Asura and Human path.

Nagato will be dominating everything Maddy throws at him until he uses PS.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 10, 2014)

> Madara cannot summon in this fight since Kyuubi is restricted. Therefore without PS nothing Madara throws will be effective against Nagato.
> 
> Susano'o would be absorbed, Katon would be absorbed, genjutsu is not happening with Nagato's sensing, and CqC is suicidal with Asura and Human path.
> 
> Nagato will be dominating everything Maddy throws at him until he uses PS.



Madara may need Perfect Susanoo, but the point I was trying to get at is he's not going to act as if his life is in any real danger. His unseen non-perfect Susanoo arsenal was still powerful enough to subdue Mu/Onoki without him losing any noticeable degree of composure after it was all said and done. 

I don't _think_ no-PS Madara will solo Nagato, even if his non-PS arsenal can solo the likes of Mu + young Onoki; He may need PS and if he does need it he'll swing it twice and not as rapidly as he did so against Hashirama. Madara's not going to consider the fight a death match or anything though.


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## ARGUS (Jan 10, 2014)

Madara wins this high diff

but Nagato is being severely underestimated here,,,,,,,
Madara has only one thing that works against Nagato and that's the shockwaves of the PS 
Logically speaking the mindset is cool,, therefore chances are Madara will only use PS as a last resort 
Technically speaking  Nagato can only win this if he can manage to BT soul rip Madara before he brings out PS,,, after all Nagato can pull Madara out of his earlier susanoo forms

As for the PS slash shockwaves,, what ppl seem to think is that Nagato needs a CST to completely negate the slash,, that isn't how it works since Nagato only needs a sufficient enough ST to only protect HIMSELF,,, like a small ST barrier,,, Nagato can protect himself about 3-5 times MAX I think,,,, seeing as how a normal ST from Nagato destroyed an entire forest,,, so I think he should survive about 3-5 times
There is also a possible theory that BT can be used to pull Madara out of his PS though I dnt see that happening

You have restricted ANIMAL path for Nagato here,, seriously cerebrus was one hope for Nagato but that aint happening anymore either
On top of that Madara has more chakra reserves,, better Taijutsu skills and obviously a better defense and offense

Madara obviously wins this but not as easily as ppl are claiming it to be



Lawrence777 said:


> Madara may need Perfect Susanoo, but the point I was trying to get at is he's not going to act as if his life is in any real danger. His unseen non-perfect Susanoo arsenal was still powerful enough to subdue Mu/Onoki without him losing any noticeable degree of composure after it was all said and done.
> 
> I don't _think_ no-PS Madara will solo Nagato, even if his non-PS arsenal can solo the likes of Mu + young Onoki; He may need PS and if he does need it he'll swing it twice and not as rapidly as he did so against Hashirama. Madara's not going to consider the fight a death match or anything though.



The fight of Madara vs Muu  and ONoki seems abit unexplained 
since there is a possibility that they both could have jintond PS 

Umm seeing as how nothing bar PS will work against Nagato then yes Madara would start to worry,, as Deva and Preta will counter everything he throws,, and taijutsu will be quite dangerus for him due to asura and human,,,,,, 
Madara definitely needs PS to win this


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## Jagger (Jan 10, 2014)

Madara wins if he pulls out Perfect Susano'O.

Period. All his other techniques are either absorbed, repelled or countered. Simple as that. Madara can't get anywhere close with Taijutsu when Nagato is capable of keeping his disntace with the summons and even if that fails, Asura Path does the trick.

Unfortunely for Nagato, when Madara pulls out PS, it's game over for the Uzumaki.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 10, 2014)

HKCD
I didn't say Madara wouldn't need his PS. I'm not sure if he would or wouldn't; If he _does_ use it though he'll casually swing it twice, probably without even moving his PS around, and call it a day. Mads and Hashi are just that powerful.

We don't know how powerful Non-Perfect Susanoo, Non-Kyuubi EMS Madara is, we just know he's so superior to Mu + Young Onoki that the author chose to depict him as not being fatigued at all after he thrashed the kage fighters. Him being depicted in such a manner by the author leads me to believe he is insanely powerful even without his trumps.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 11, 2014)

why is evry1 saying its over as soon as Madara brings out PS? whats stopping Nagato from Bansho Ten'ining him out of PS?


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## LostSelf (Jan 11, 2014)

There's actually a good chance that Madara dies before resorting to PS, but that depends on the knowledge they get. Being EMS Madara means he doesn't have knowledge on Rinnegan's abilities.

Or unless this be an incarnation of Madara after awakening Rinnegan, but only using EMS.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 11, 2014)

As soon as PS, comes out, it's over. Nagato gets bisected.


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## genii96 (Jan 11, 2014)

PS is still susanoo,and can be absorbed,and unless you say that the amount of chakra in PS is greater than a v2 form of a jin,then it gets absorbed pretty easily.

People saying nagato needs CST to deflect a shockwave are absurd,pain who is much weaker than nagatao sent 3 bijuu sized toads flying out of konoha and landing a far distance away,that was not even a focused one,as it spread all round to hit them,Nagato's version is much more powerful and he wil focus it. Those shockwaves couldnt kill a single gokage,yet it kills nagato?.

CT also end this. PS is moutain sized,CT is thrown high into the sky,madara has no long ranged attacks that can reach.

Nagato's rinnegan is too powerful for an ems opponent


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## tkpirate (Jan 11, 2014)

madara will have to use a strong enough PS slash to kill nagato.


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## genii96 (Jan 11, 2014)

You guys know that madara's dog will tank the slash and just multiply right?


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## Psp123789 (Jan 11, 2014)

When PS comes out there is nothing Nagato can do to stop Madara when he starts spamming those mountain busting shockwaves. Nagato will be destroyed by it just like the gokage were. Nagato's only way to win is to defeat Madara before he brings out PS.


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## tkpirate (Jan 11, 2014)

genii96 said:


> You guys know that madara's dog will tank the slash and just multiply right?



nagato's dog never tanked anything as strong as PS sward slash.and he should have amaterasu as well.


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## ARGUS (Jan 11, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> nagato's dog never tanked anything as strong as PS sward slash.and he should have amaterasu as well.



I dnt think madara has Amaterasu 
Seeing as when sasuke used it on him.. He judged it as a techinque that he has seen for the first time...,, so no madara has not shown any feats nor claimed that he has Amaterasu


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## genii96 (Jan 11, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> When PS comes out there is nothing Nagato can do to stop Madara when he starts spamming those mountain busting shockwaves. Nagato will be destroyed by it just like the gokage were. Nagato's only way to win is to defeat Madara before he brings out PS.



the shockwaves are not mountain busters,they just end up cutting off the mountain tops,and none of the gokage were killed.



tkpirate said:


> nagato's dog never tanked anything as strong as PS sward slash.and he should have amaterasu as well.



physical attacks make the dog multiply,so it dosent matter,the power of the slash will end up making dozens of the dogs. More slashed end up producing more dogs and so on

Madara either cant or dosent use amaterasu at all,even when serious,dont you think an amaterasu blast would be of use in hitting hashirama?

Also these shockwaves you people hype do much,they couldnt even kill a gokage. Nagato can fly like against konoha,he can deflect them back at madara,he can have his dog tank and multiply or can have gedo tank it. CT ends this


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## The World (Jan 11, 2014)

Nagato summons Deva Realm who sets up CT while Nagato uses CST downward on Madara who cannot interrupt CT

then Nagato has Animal Realm run far away and reverse summons himself


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## tkpirate (Jan 11, 2014)

genii96 said:


> the shockwaves are not mountain busters,they just end up cutting off the mountain tops,and none of the gokage were killed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



madara never used his PS sward slash on gokage.and his PS sward slash should be as strong as bijuu bombs which are big island level to country level.and if itachi is right he should have amaterasu.and a strong enough PS sward slash will overpower ST and CST.



xxHKCDxx said:


> I dnt think madara has Amaterasu
> Seeing as when sasuke used it on him.. He judged it as a techinque that he has seen for the first time...,, so no madara has not shown any feats nor claimed that he has Amaterasu



if itachi is right,he should have amaterasu.madara has too many abilities to use them all.


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## ARGUS (Jan 11, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> if itachi is right,he should have amaterasu.madara has too many abilities to use them all.



Itachi never stated that madara had Amaterasu 
All he said that he had MS and EMS


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## tkpirate (Jan 11, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Itachi never stated that madara had Amaterasu
> All he said that he had MS and EMS



itachi said something like 'you need to awaken amaterasu and tsukuyomi in both eyes to use susanoo'.


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## crisler (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm about the PS swing, can't nagato just use shinra tensei?

I used to think the same and believed Madara would easily win, but then again, can't nagato just use shinra tensei to destroy that part o the swordslash that is about to hit him? that attack is very big but all nagato needs to remove is that part which is about to hit him

There's also the fact that nagato doesn't need to destroy the slash, but rather 'push' it aside and change the direction like hashirama did with that rashomon.

3 rashomon was destroy by 4 tails kyuubi bijuudama. 
5 rashomon changed the direction of full kyuubi bijuudama + PS swordslash
shinra tensei destroyed FRS easily, which I would say is probably betwee the above two attacks.

I think normal ST would be enough to change the attacks' direction, thus protecting nagato. 

I actually think Nagato has a good chance. His powers come from rinnegan, one that is formed when fusing the two godlike powers of senju and uchiha


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## tkpirate (Jan 11, 2014)

crisler said:


> Hmm about the PS swing, can't nagato just use shinra tensei?



PS swings are stronger than ST.and even if he can do that,he wouldn't be able to use another ST for 5 seconds.and madara can spam PS swings.


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## ARGUS (Jan 11, 2014)

crisler said:


> Hmm about the PS swing, can't nagato just use shinra tensei?
> 
> I used to think the same and believed Madara would easily win, but then again, can't nagato just use shinra tensei to destroy that part o the swordslash that is about to hit him? that attack is very big but all nagato needs to remove is that part which is about to hit him
> 
> ...



I agree +rep
Nagato only needs a ST barrier like thing to only prevent his slash
He doesn't need to completely negate the slash since the surroundings are of no concern to him 
One normal ST from nagato destroyed an entire forest
So yeah he can do it


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 11, 2014)

Madara oneshots with PS.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 11, 2014)

Eh, Prime Nagato should be able to pull him out of PS before it's even animated with BT, the same way he pulled KCM Naruto and a fucking meteor from space. 

Madara cannot perceive the Chameleon or destroy the Cerberus. 

Then you have a randomized CST coming in somewhere between the distraction of Cerberus (and other summons), the inability to locate the Chameleon (and Nagato himself), and the fact Madara is unwillingly being pulled around.

Biggest problem being the fact that Madara doesn't know ANYTHING about Nagato or his powers. So the element of complete underestimation comes into play. Look at the way he was playing with Onoki and Mu, two kage-level opponents that he had knowledge on. 

Prime Nagato should kill Madara with these stipulations.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 11, 2014)

Zenith said:


> ^ it is almost neg worthy that you mention that Nagato summoned a meteor from space( when it was just a human sized boulder at best) and forget that Madara's made Kage level shinobi(including Naruto who had already fought Nagato and witnessed Chibaku Tensei) if the dude was a God
> 
> didn't even read the read the rest of your post after that, fuck outta here with the Nagato wank
> 
> Madara camps in Perfect Susano'o and Nagato's blood gets smeared like paint across the landscape


Your opinion means nothing to me. Neg me if you want, I could give two shits for electronic social scoring. 

*me?te?or
ˈmētēər,-ēˌ?r/Submit
noun
noun: meteor; plural noun: meteors
1.
a small body of matter from outer space that enters the earth's atmosphere, becoming incandescent as a result of friction and appearing as a streak of light.
synonyms:	falling star, shooting star, meteorite, meteoroid, bolide More*

Prime Nagato easily pulls ninja out of Susanos for breakfast. This is no real challenge for him. He pulled rocks from outside the atmosphere to his own body in the matter of two seconds. 

Madara has no knowledge, evoking Perfect Susano against a stranger, when he didn't even bother against Onoki and Mu, two kage-level opponents he had knowledge on, is a hilarious thought.

He likely shunshins directly into a boss-sized ST, that kills him.


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## Sans (Jan 11, 2014)

People are having a laugh if they think Madara is under any kind of threat here.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 11, 2014)

Zenith said:


> this is not my opinion, what i mentioned were manga facts whether you want to accept them or not, is up to you, i can't be bothered with readers in denial
> 
> Nagato never summoned anything from space, you are mixing the characters up. Madara did, Nagato at best summoned a rock the size of a human, too bad it's irrelevant here and wasn't even coming from space. And if you mean Chibaku Tensei, the dome was formed from pre-existing rock too, so you really need to read the manga
> 
> ...


Nagato and Madara did not summon anything from space, they both pulled them.

Are you suggesting they had rocks with summoning seals on them?

It was clear what I meant. Nagato pulled a rock from outer space as he was pulling KCM Naruto. Madara pulled a rock from outer space in V3 Susano. 

Madara had absolutely no knowledge on the Rinnegan when he had only the EMS, from this distance it doesn't matter- he wouldn't be able to see Nagato's oculars regardless. Jiraiya treated the Rinnegan as a simple challenge, nobody in the verse knew of it's power scale until Nagato began milking it. Madara knew of it later in life when he erected it, but that Madara is not the Madara in this matchup. 

This is not a matter of power scaling, this is a matchup scenario. Madara does not have any knowledge on Nagato, are you honestly suggesting he enters any variant of Susano against a randomized individual when canonically he was playing with Onoki and Mu?


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## tkpirate (Jan 11, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Eh, Prime Nagato should be able to pull him out of PS before it's even animated with BT, the same way he pulled KCM Naruto and a fucking meteor from space.
> 
> Biggest problem being the fact that Madara doesn't know ANYTHING about Nagato or his powers. So the element of complete underestimation comes into play. Look at the way he was playing with Onoki and Mu, two kage-level opponents that he had knowledge on.
> 
> Prime Nagato should kill Madara with these stipulations.


not really,since madara is faster than nagato.and once he activates PS,it will be very hard for him to damage madara.you need greater power than bijuu's to cause any damage to PS.
and if madara has no knowledge of rinnegan then how did he use RH a better and stronger version of ST ?


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 11, 2014)

Zenith said:


> now, DaVizWiz, my dear friend  let's not get caught up with semantics and lose track of the core. Nagato "pulled" a _nearby_ rock, that is not a meteor by any stretch of the imagination. Madara instead, "pulled" 2 authentic meteors from the stratosphere, not from the vicinity, you still with me?. . .it's not that hard really
> 
> Madara might not have any knowledge but he's not blind, he can see the dude with the Rinnegan and go "fuck this guy is powerful". Madara is arrogant, not stupid, he's not Obito. So he's just not going to randomly charge in and die in the process as you think
> 
> Mu and Onoki are ants, Nagato is just lucky enough to have been gifted with powerful eyes unlike the other 2, else he would have fared exactly like them


Where did you see anyone say he pulled a 'nearby rock'? The Rock is clearly dropping from the sky covered in splashing heat.

A meteor, by definition is matter being from out of space, moving into the atmosphere. It is, and was a meteor. 

He cannot see him. He's 150m away, I can't see someone's eye color from 20m away. Regardless, he doesn't know what it is. The Rinnegan is a foreign concept to EMS Madara, he awakened it after obtaining the DNA of Hashirama, by which he had no intention of manifesting the Rinnegan- it just happened. He knew nothing before that battle with Hashirama, he was nothing more than a leader of clan warfare at that point. 

Jiraiya knew his opponent had the Rinnegan, yet he remained calm and attacked him with lowly Lion's Mane and Katon variants. The guy didn't even bother summoning Gamabunta. 

You're wrong, that's just the bottom line. He treated Onoki and Mu as inferior even knowing they were kage-level. He knows nothing of this man, and will treat him as nothing more than alliance fodder- you know, the ARMY that he shunshin'd in against unarmed?


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## tkpirate (Jan 11, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nagato and Madara did not summon anything from space, they both pulled them.
> 
> Are you suggesting they had rocks with summoning seals on them?
> 
> It was clear what I meant. Nagato pulled a rock from outer space as he was pulling KCM Naruto.



what ?nagato never pulled anything from outer space.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nagato and Madara did not summon anything from space, they both pulled them.
> 
> Are you suggesting they had rocks with summoning seals on them?



Haha what? They both used the force of attraction but Nagato did not pull his from out space, they where a nearby LAKE which he pulled it from. The rock HERE  was clearly covered in water. 



> Madara had absolutely no knowledge on the Rinnegan when he had only the EMS, from this distance it doesn't matter- he wouldn't be able to see Nagato's oculars regardless. Jiraiya treated the Rinnegan as a simple challenge, nobody in the verse knew of it's power scale until Nagato began milking it. Madara knew of it later in life when he erected it, but that Madara is not the Madara in this matchup.



That's not true at all, he had the tablet, something even Kabuto and Orochimaru where able to decipher despite lacking the Sharingan. 



> This is not a matter of power scaling, this is a matchup scenario. Madara does not have any knowledge on Nagato, are you honestly suggesting he enters any variant of Susano against a randomized individual when canonically he was playing with Onoki and Mu?



You have no clue how he played with them, but it was clear that he used some variant of Susanoo as all the surroundings where broken. Madara is not stupid, if Nagato uses Banshō Tenin Madara will obviously counter with Susanoo. The only real threat to Madara here is Deva path, but once Madara witnesses it he will start to use Susanoo, at least starting off with the basic stages and gradually going up.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 11, 2014)

> Haha what? They both used the force of attraction but Nagato did not pull his from out space, they where a nearby LAKE which he pulled it from. The rock HERE  was clearly covered in water.


Yes he did. The rock is falling from the sky, why would he pull a rock from a lake above him, then drop it on Naruto instead of just side-swiping him with it?

Moreover, that's not water. That's splashing heat, you know, what happens when something goes through the atmosphere and comes out. The same animation covers Madara's meteor [1].

Deva Path created a CT the size of several mountains which loomed above cloud coverings [1], are you honestly suggesting Edo Nagato could not pull a tiny rock from space? 



> That's not true at all, he had the tablet, something even Kabuto and Orochimaru where able to decipher despite lacking the Sharingan.


There's absolutely no proof suggesting he read or understood it at that point. There are several Uchiha who have not deciphered it up to this point. 



> You have no clue how he played with them, but it was clear that he used some variant of Susanoo as all the surroundings where broken. Madara is not stupid, if Nagato uses Banshō Tenin Madara will obviously counter with Susanoo. The only real threat to Madara here is Deva path, but once Madara witnesses it he will start to use Susanoo, at least starting off with the basic stages and gradually going up.


He did not use Perfect Susano, which is why Onoki was shitfaced when he saw it.

EMS Madara's Perfect Susano shits on the rest of his arsenal, if he does not use that, then he is playing with his opponent. 

The idea is that Nagato doesn't let him counter in time. Do you understand? Like, Madara shunshins in and is hit with a boss-sized ST that knocked 3 frog summons several kilometers away and put them out of the battle immediately.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes he did. The rock is falling from the sky, why would he pull a rock from a lake above him, then drop it on Naruto instead of just side-swiping him with it?



Because if he try's to side-swiping him there would be a much better chance of Naruto tanking it with ease. 



> > Moreover, that's not water. That's splashing heat, you know, what happens when something goes through the atmosphere and comes out. The same animation covers Madara's meteor [1].



I could see a clear distinction between the two, splashing heat does not look like the heat that was on the rock that Nagato pulled. There where water droplets coming from the end of the rock. 




> Deva Path created a CT the size of several mountains which loomed above cloud coverings, are you honestly suggesting Edo Nagato could not pull a tiny rock from space?



That's not it, its the context that bothers me, it was clearly pulled from the water they where next to, but I'm not denying that he can't pull a rock from space. 



> There's absolutely no proof suggesting he read or understood it at that point. There are several Uchiha who have not deciphered it up to this point.



He knew about it because he could have not read the Uchiha tablet after his fight with Hashirama. He summoned the Gedo Mazu to keep himself alive but could not go very far. But he clearly knew what was written on the tablet about the Rinnengan. 





> He did not use Perfect Susano, which is why Onoki was shitfaced when he saw it.



Does not mean he did not use any other stages of Susanoo. 



> EMS Madara's Perfect Susano shits on the rest of his arsenal, if he does not use that, then he is playing with his opponent.



That's not true at all as he only used it near the end of his battle with Hashirama. THIS  is not PS. 



> The idea is that Nagato doesn't let him counter in time. Do you understand? Like, Madara shunshins in and is hit with a boss-sized ST that knocked 3 frog summons several kilometers away and put them out of the battle immediately.



Yeah that's not going to happen, Madara will at least start off with Ribcage Susanoo. He knows he is not facing a fodder,


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 11, 2014)

Zenith said:


> now, DaVizWiz, my dear friend  let's not get caught up with semantics and lose track of the core. Nagato "pulled" a _nearby_ rock, that is not a meteor by any stretch of the imagination. Madara instead, "pulled" 2 authentic meteors from the stratosphere, not from the vicinity, you still with me?. . .it's not that hard really
> 
> Madara might not have any knowledge but he's not blind, he can see the dude with the Rinnegan and go "fuck this guy is powerful". Madara is arrogant, not stupid, he's not Obito. So he's just not going to randomly charge in and die in the process as you think
> 
> Mu and Onoki are ants, Nagato is just lucky enough to have been gifted with powerful eyes unlike the other 2, else he would have fared exactly like them


He might not be stupid but arrogance can make a guy stupid



Destiny Monarch said:


> Haha what? They both used the force of attraction but Nagato did not pull his from out space, they where a nearby LAKE which he pulled it from. The rock HERE  was clearly covered in water.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you drunk? How do you counter Bansho Tenin with a susanoo if at all? he uses susanoo it still wouldn't matter because he's coming flying out of that susanoo


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## tkpirate (Jan 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Are you drunk? How do you counter Bansho Tenin with a susanoo if at all? he uses susanoo it still wouldn't matter because he's coming flying out of that susanoo



no he isn't drunk.because madara is faster than nagato,he will be able to swing his sward before nagato can use BT.and when madara is in PS nagato's BT probably wouldn't work.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Are you drunk? How do you counter Bansho Tenin with a susanoo if at all? he uses susanoo it still wouldn't matter because he's coming flying out of that susanoo



There are four ways to counter Banshō Tenin for EMS Madara, two of them involve Susanoo;

1. You do realize that Susanoo can grab Madara right? This is why Gaara COVERED  Susanoo's arm joints. Nagato cannot do that, if he uses Banshō Tenin Susanoo can easily just grab Madara in mid-air. 
2. If Madara does not have Susanoo active and Nagato pulls him with Banshō Tenin, Madara can simply activate Susanoo once he is near Nagato and skewer him with Susanoo's sword. 
3. Madara can use Genjutsu on Nagato if Nagato pulls him towards him and without intel Nagato would likely fall for it. 
4.  Katon Haijin-Gakure No Jutsu requires no hand seals so he can use it even while being pulled by Banshō Tenin, Preta path has to be activated first, without intel Nagato won't know to activate Preta path as he will be caught off guard.

I also wonder how Nagato will react to someone who is significantly faster than V1 3rd Raikage


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## fior fior (Jan 11, 2014)

Nagato can deal with Perfect Susanoo. It is being severely overestimated, while Nagato is being severely underestimated. I will give the reasons why in diagrammatic form.

*Perfect Susanoo's Capacity*

There is a common misconception about just how big Perfect Susanoo really is. Yes, it is huge. Yes, it has an incredible damage capacity. Unfortunately for all those that are Madara fans - myself included - these factors are not so great that they dwarf the showings of other characters.





Upon inspection, it becomes clear that Perfect Susanoo is roughly the size of a mountain; my scrutiny would have me say that it is smaller, in fact. Its damage capacity, with one swing of its sword, is roughly that of two mountains.



*Nagato's Capacity*

Nagato has shown capability far and beyond anything that Perfect Susanoo can compete with. First of all, there is Shinra Tensei: a multiple mountain buster, with the force to create an impact crater several mountains deep and a diameter of hundreds of mountains.



Nagato has more than enough power to destroy the Perfect Susanoo, or at least severely damage it and kill Madara from within. The fact that he can not 'spam' this ability is not an issue for Nagato. The Shinra Tensei displayed in the scan below is strong enough to take out multiple boss summons and leave a mountain-sized impact crater, but Pain - whom Nagato is stronger than - uses it again after the five second interval. What this means is that the below Shinra Tensei classes as an ordinary Shinra Tensei, and can be used on a regular basis by Nagato. He should have no problems deflecting the blows of Perfect Susanoo.




Finally, of course, there is Nagato's trump card: Chibaku Tensei. The diagram is self-explanatory.



I'm sorry to all ye Madara fans, but Nagato is just out of anybody's league bar Hashirama.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

fior fior said:


> *Nagato's Capacity*
> 
> Nagato has shown capability far and beyond anything that Perfect Susanoo can compete with. First of all, there is Shinra Tensei: a multiple mountain buster, with the force to create an impact crater several mountains deep and a diameter of hundreds of mountains.
> 
> [sp][/sp]



That is in fact Chou Shinra Tensei, afte which he cannot use Deva path (CT included) for what is basically the rest of the match. A Nagato without Deva path can be dealt with by Madara rather easily. 



> Nagato has more than enough power to destroy the Perfect Susanoo, or at least severely damage it and kill Madara from within. The fact that he can not 'spam' this ability is not an issue for Nagato. The Shinra Tensei displayed in the scan below is strong enough to take out multiple boss summons and leave a mountain-sized impact crater, but Pain - whom Nagato is stronger than - uses it again after the five second interval. What this means is that the below Shinra Tensei classes as an ordinary Shinra Tensei, and can be used on a regular basis by Nagato. He should have no problems deflecting the blows of Perfect Susanoo.



No that's not how it would work, Madara cannot be killed if PS is not destroyed. CST is strong, but you have to remember that small Katsuyu tanked it with the help of some debris. It has enough force to push PS back, but It does not have enough power to destroy PS. Boss summons a rather small compared to PS, in fact, Gambunta is probably only just bigger then PS's head and obviously *A LOT* less durable. 




> Finally, of course, there is Nagato's trump card: Chibaku Tensei. The diagram is self-explanatory.



CT starts off as a small black orb, which can easily be destroyed by PS's slash. You also have to remember that even if PS is trapped within CT, Kurama managed to comfortably nearly break out, I don't see why PS, who is is severally Ike's bigger and more powerful cannot do the same.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 11, 2014)

> Because if he try's to side-swiping him there would be a much better chance of Naruto tanking it with ease.


What the fuck? Kabuto's intention wasn't to kill them. 

There is no argument suggesting he'd pull it out of the lake, hover it above him, then drop it on Naruto. There is no canon evidence he did this.



> I could see a clear distinction between the two, splashing heat does not look like the heat that was on the rock that Nagato pulled. There where water droplets coming from the end of the rock.


Are you suggesting water would visually remain on a boulder that was pulled out of the lake from who knows what distance, hovered above Nagato, then dropped down? 

There is no argument that would make that look more like water than heat. Where are you getting this from?



> That's not it, its the context that bothers me, it was clearly pulled from the water they where next to, but I'm not denying that he can't pull a rock from space.


It was not clearly pulled from anywhere. It randomly appears in a panel dropping down with some type of matter streaking off it. 

What made you believe it was CLEARLY pulled from a lake? Are boulders the size of mini vans commonly in lakes? 



> He knew about it because he could have not read the Uchiha tablet after his fight with Hashirama. He summoned the Gedo Mazu to keep himself alive but could not go very far. But he clearly knew what was written on the tablet about the Rinnengan.


The tablet does not describe the powers of the Rinnegan, it describes a story about God Tree, a dumbass who utilized it to obtain political power, and the child of said dumbass who destroyed the Tree's manifested retribution for the sin of acquiring it's power. 

This is what Madara described. Nothing in the story leads to the physical color of Rinnegan, the way it looks, it's powers or power scale.

Now, tell me how reading or not reading that tablet would influence his decision in an initial attack against a man who is 150m (out of the visual range to determine ocular color/shape)?



> Does not mean he did not use any other stages of Susanoo.


I did not say he didn't. I said he played with Mu and Onoki, which he canonically said he did. 



> Yeah that's not going to happen, Madara will at least start off with Ribcage Susanoo. He knows he is not facing a fodder


Ribcage Susano is obliterated by a boss-sized ST, no difficulty. Or, It's Preta'd, and his soul is ripped out. 

Raikage put his arm through Sasuke's. 

You haven't presented anything that makes me believe Madara, against a randomized individual, would start out utilizing Susano, the strongest technique in his arsenal, when he literally blitzed in unarmed against a platoon of ninja he had absolutely no knowledge on.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> What the fuck? Kabuto's intention wasn't to kill them.



Yes it was, his intention was to kill him and revive him via Edo Tensei, as he refers to his Edo Tensei as his "cards".Or at the very least, intended to beat them to a bloody pulp. Though I'm inclined to say its the former. 



> There is no argument suggesting he'd pull it out of the lake, hover it above him, then drop it on Naruto. There is no canon evidence he did this.
> 
> Are you suggesting water would visually remain on a boulder that was pulled out of the lake from who knows what distance, hovered above Nagato, then dropped down?
> 
> There is no argument that would make that look more like water than heat. Where are you getting this from?



Do you not see the water droplets on the back of the boulder? Heat does not do that. LOOK  how close the lake was, there is not much distance to cover for the boulder. 



> It was not clearly pulled from anywhere. It randomly appears in a panel dropping down with some type of matter streaking off it.



With a lake right next to them and water dripping off..........



> What made you believe it was CLEARLY pulled from a lake? Are boulders the size of mini vans commonly in lakes?



Yes, actually there are a lot of boulders that size in lakes. The water held no other relevance other than taking the rock out of it, otherwise it would have not been drawn. The fact that Nagato pulled it from the side of the lake and not from above the same way Madara did does not help your case either. 



> The tablet does not describe the powers of the Rinnegan, it describes a story about God Tree, a dumbass who utilized it to obtain political power, and the child of said dumbass who destroyed the Tree's manifested retribution for the sin of acquiring it's power.



It has enough written about the Rinnengan to even state how to unlock the Rinnengan. 



> This is what Madara described. Nothing in the story leads to the physical color of Rinnegan, the way it looks, it's powers or power scale.



It mentions how to unlock the Rinnengan. 



> Now, tell me how reading or not reading that tablet would influence his decision in an initial attack against a man who is 150m (out of the visual range to determine ocular color/shape)?



You do realize that Madara was able to see the 5 Kages from WAY more then that distance right? 



> I did not say he didn't. I said he played with Mu and Onoki, which he canonically said he did.
> 
> Ribcage Susano is obliterated by a boss-sized ST, no difficulty.



ST does not specialize in destroying things like Susanoo, it simply blows it away farther then it did Gambunta, but does not actually destroy it, Madaras rib cage Susanoo tanked Ay's lightning chop and Mei's lava at the same time, do not confuse his Ribcage Susanoo with Sasuke's who's ironically was bypassed by just one of those. 



> Raikage put his arm through Sasuke's.



But Madara's easily tanked it. 



> You haven't presented anything that makes me believe Madara, against a randomized individual, would start out utilizing Susano, the strongest technique in his arsenal, when he literally blitzed in unarmed against a platoon of ninja he had absolutely no knowledge on.



Knowing that Nagato has the Rinnengan should be enough for him to consider Nagato at least Kage level. So he would use Susanoo, just like he did against all the Kage level opponents he faced. Besides, its mo like Nagato to use BT then ST from the start, to which Madara uses one of the counters I listed before.


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## fior fior (Jan 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:
			
		

> That is in fact Chou Shinra Tensei, afte which he cannot use Deva path (CT included) for what is basically the rest of the match. A Nagato without Deva path can be dealt with by Madara rather easily.


After it's used, Madara won't have PS. If you're telling me that Nagato can't handle Madara in this scenario then prove it. There is nothing I can think of to indicate that Nagato won't wipe the floor with him once PS is out of the picture.



> No that's not how it would work, Madara cannot be killed if PS is not destroyed. CST is strong, but you have to remember that small Katsuyu tanked it with the help of some debris. It has enough force to push PS back, but It does not have enough power to destroy PS. Boss summons a rather small compared to PS, in fact, Gambunta is probably only just bigger then PS's head and obviously A LOT less durable.


Madara crashing to the ground from hundreds of meters up in the air, after being hit by a city-busting, multiple mountain-destroying attack, is not enough to kill him? Can you expand on that for me, please?

Katsuyu did not 'tank' CST conventionally, the same way that PS would have to. Katsuyu's bodily structure allows it to liquify, as well as bend and absorb the attack differently. It's similar to batting a sweater with a baseball bat. While a piece of wood, or even metal, is definitely stronger than the shirt, it would fare much worse upon a heavy beating. PS would be shattered.

Of course Gamabunta is less durable. That's besides the point. Pain, who is leagues weaker than Nagato - the real thing, could send three boss summons flying for miles and miles and broke every bone in their bodies. That amount of force is enough to push PS's sword around; Nagato could defend himself with ST.



> CT starts off as a small black orb, which can easily be destroyed by PS's slash. You also have to remember that even if PS is trapped within CT, Kurama managed to comfortably nearly break out, I don't see why PS, who is is severally Ike's bigger and more powerful cannot do the same.


Kurama didn't look very 'comfortable'. It was writhing about and screaming its head off, and only a little of its head and the tip of its tails were protruding from the CT orb. The only reason Naruto got out of that alive was plot and the fact that he transformed back into his human self. PS could possibly break out, although even that is doubtful, but there won't be a PS: CST will have smashed it to pieces, or at least flattened it for long enough.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 11, 2014)

> Yes it was, his intention was to kill him and revive him via Edo Tensei, as he refers to his Edo Tensei as his "cards".Or at the very least, intended to beat them to a bloody pulp. Though I'm inclined to say its the former.


That was at the end of the battle when they began to become a nuisance.

It's clear he started the battle out attempting to beat them into submission, otherwise he would have utilized Amaterasu or CST at start battle- instead of ass boss summons and fucking fireballs. 



> Do you not see the water droplets on the back of the boulder? Heat does not do that. LOOK  how close the lake was, there is not much distance to cover for the boulder.


Yes it does, that is the remnants of dying flames. 

Do these white flames (drawn that color in this black/white manga) animation not look like what is scaling off of that boulder?[/URL] [3], and Madara's [4]. 



> Yes, actually there are a lot of boulders that size in lakes. The water held no other relevance other than taking the rock out of it, otherwise it would have not been drawn. The fact that Nagato pulled it from the side of the lake and not from above the same way Madara did does not help your case either.


Oh, there's mini-van sized boulders inside remote lakes located in the middle of forest area? Really now?

It's not water. What aren't you understanding? It's HEAT. FLAMES.

It did help my case. There is no logical person that would pull a boulder above their bodies, then drop it with force instead of simply pulling it toward the target initially. 



> It has enough written about the Rinnengan to even state how to unlock the Rinnengan.


It does not at all. What the balls are you talking about?



> It mentions how to unlock the Rinnengan.


No it does not. Moreover, knowing how to unlock it doesn't mean he will recognize it when someone else is using it. There is no canon evidence suggesting EMS Madara knew the physical attributes of the Dojutsu. 



> You do realize that Madara was able to see the 5 Kages from WAY more then that distance right?


What does this prove? That he can see the eye color of Nagato from 150m? 

Is he part hawk?



> ST does not specialize in destroying things like Susanoo, it simply blows it away farther then it did Gambunta, but does not actually destroy it, Madaras rib cage Susanoo tanked Ay's lightning chop and Mei's lava at the same time, do not confuse his Ribcage Susanoo with Sasuke's who's ironically was bypassed by just one of those.


CST doesn't specilize in destroying things? You're fucking joking right?

Gravity is the most destructive force in existence. I guarantee everything that occurs in the manga under the definition of destruction doesn't even begin to amount to the force that is responsible for destroying and creating planets. 



> But Madara's easily tanked it.


Irrelevant. 



> Knowing that Nagato has the Rinnengan should be enough for him to consider Nagato at least Kage level. So he would use Susanoo, just like he did against all the Kage level opponents he faced. Besides, its mo like Nagato to use BT then ST from the start, to which Madara uses one of the counters I listed before.


He doesn't know he has it. What aren't you understanding?

1. He does not know what it looks like
2. He's never seen it before
3. He knows nothing about Nagato
4. He's 150m away at start battle

Nagato will CLEARLY identify his opponent as Madara Uchiha as he'll recognize the chakra power scale and recognize that it's similar to Itachi's, aside from recognizing his physical appearance.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> There are four ways to counter Banshō Tenin for EMS Madara, two of them involve Susanoo;
> 
> 1. You do realize that Susanoo can grab Madara right? This is why Gaara COVERED  Susanoo's arm joints. Nagato cannot do that, if he uses Banshō Tenin Susanoo can easily just grab Madara in mid-air.
> 2. If Madara does not have Susanoo active and Nagato pulls him with Banshō Tenin, Madara can simply activate Susanoo once he is near Nagato and skewer him with Susanoo's sword.
> ...


When has Susanoo ever grabbed Madara? If Nagato is to Bansho Tenin him when is the Susanoo going to grab him before or after he's already out of the Susanoo because when hes out the Susanoo its rendered useless and disappears correct? And if he's in the Susanoo about to get pulled out of it the Susanoo was never shown to put its hands inside its body. So Bansho Tenin ultimately take him out the susanoo. While Nagato is pulling him and he uses Susanoo again the Bansho Tenin is still active so the same thing would happen he would just go flying out of that Susanoo and with out Susanoo Nagato wipes the floor with him. Then just soul rip him and as was shown when he fought bee and naruto the use of arms was not needed to absorb ninjutsu


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jan 11, 2014)

Madara crushes Nagato. Nagato is just using some borrowed power, he's only strong because Madara gave him his eyes. 

Nagato can counter everything Madara does, until PS, and he can't charge CST/CT in time to block a single slash, let alone multiple. Not that CST/CT could harm PS anyway.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 11, 2014)

and with out izuna's eyes Madara wouldn't be that strong either he would just be regular


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## fior fior (Jan 11, 2014)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Madara crushes Nagato. Nagato is just using some borrowed power, he's only strong because Madara gave him his eyes.
> 
> Nagato can counter everything Madara does, until PS, and he can't charge CST/CT in time to block a single slash, let alone multiple. *Not that CST/CT could harm PS anyway*.



No, the ability that left a mountain deep crater, hundreds of mountains wide, in the earth would _never_ hurt PS.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

fior fior said:


> After it's used, Madara won't have PS. If you're telling me that Nagato can't handle Madara in this scenario then prove it. There is nothing I can think of to indicate that Nagato won't wipe the floor with him once PS is out of the picture.



If Nagato cannot use Deva path? Il explain it if that's what you mean. 




> Madara crashing to the ground from hundreds of meters up in the air, after being hit by a city-busting, multiple mountain-destroying attack, is not enough to kill him? Can you expand on that for me, please?



PS WON'T be destroyed by CST, its not meant to deal devastating damage like Bijudamas do. Katsuyu is like Susanoo, she can only be destroyed by heavy hitting attacks which is why even she was able to survive a CST. Unless you can prove to me that Katsuyu, scratch that, a human sized Katsuyu is more durable then PS then CST won't be destroying PS. 



> Katsuyu did not 'tank' CST conventionally, the same way that PS would have to. Katsuyu's bodily structure allows it to liquify, as well as bend and absorb the attack differently. It's similar to batting a sweater with a baseball bat. While a piece of wood, or even metal, is definitely stronger than the shirt, it would fare much worse upon a heavy beating. PS would be shattered.



This is not true at all, if this was the case, the human inside would have died. But I have a better example, 6-tailed Naruto was not only able to tank, but to re-direct ST right back at Pain, 6-tailed Naruto's durability is actually very similar to Ribcage Susanoo's. PS is not only countless times bigger then 6-tailed Naruto but it has stabilized chakra (which essentially makes it more durable). Of course CST is on another level then a regular ST but PS is also, at best the force would push PS back as it cannot exactly "shatter". 



> Of course Gamabunta is less durable. That's besides the point. Pain, who is leagues weaker than Nagato - the real thing, could send three boss summons flying for miles and miles and broke every bone in their bodies. That amount of force is enough to push PS's sword around; Nagato could defend himself with ST.



"Leagues" weaker? That's a baseless assumption, Naruto simply said he was more powerful, how much more powerful is unknown, there was not even a single feat that put his Jutsu feats above Peins. But that's besides the point, the point is, the frogs did not get damaged much from the initial ST, it was the aftermath of crashing and rolling on the ground that broke their bones. Ribcage Susanoo will tank the initial ST without much difficulty but the aftermath would be the problem, however, in Madara's case it will be Ribcaged Susanoos bones that would be breaking, not his. Though it would break Ribcage Susanoo Madara himself would be mostly unharmed except with perhaps several bruises. Agaisnt the force of an attack that can cut two mountains Nagato would have to use a ST more potent then the one he used agaisnt the Boss summons, and then PS slashes again...............



> Kurama didn't look very 'comfortable'. It was writhing about and screaming its head off, and only a little of its head and the tip of its tails were protruding from the CT orb. The only reason Naruto got out of that alive was plot and the fact that he transformed back into his human self. PS could possibly break out, although even that is doubtful, but there won't be a PS: CST will have smashed it to pieces, or at least flattened it for long enough.



That was Naruto who was screaming, and Kurama was not even at 50% power then. PS should easily be able to break out of some rubble. 



DaVizWiz said:


> That was at the end of the battle when they began to become a nuisance.
> 
> It's clear he started the battle out attempting to beat them into submission, otherwise he would have utilized Amaterasu or CST at start battle- instead of ass boss summons and fucking fireballs.



Is not that, Kabuto is simply horrible at controlling Edos, he somehow managed to make someone who has stalemated Hachibi before lose horribly to SM Naruto. His intents where clear. 





> Do these white flames (drawn that color in this black/white manga) animation not look like what is scaling off of that boulder?[/URL] [3], and Madara's [4].



No, they look like Madara's but not Nagato's, those remnants are far to small and numerous to be of that of flames. 



> Oh, there's mini-van sized boulders inside remote lakes located in the middle of forest area? Really now?



Yes I live near a lake, there are plenty. 



> It did help my case. There is no logical person that would pull a boulder above their bodies, then drop it with force instead of simply pulling it toward the target initially.



He pointed his hand towards the lake, pulled out a rock, stopped when it was higher then his person while perfectly timed with Narutos body speed moving towards him and threw it. Even the Anime sees what happened, they portray pretty clear what happened. 



> It does not at all. What the balls are you talking about?
> 
> No it does not. Moreover, knowing how to unlock it doesn't mean he will recognize it when someone else is using it. There is no canon evidence suggesting EMS Madara knew the physical attributes of the Dojutsu.



He knew that you needed Senju and Uchiha DNA to unlock the Rinnengan, and Kabuto knew this too from deciphering the Uchiha tablet. Jiraiya recognized the Rinnengan and yet you think someone like Madara would not? 



> What does this prove? That he can see the eye color of Nagato from 150m?
> 
> Is he part hawk?



Ninjas in the Narutoverse have far more acute senses then normal people so I would be surprised if he did. 



> CST doesn't specilize in destroying things? You're fucking joking right?
> 
> Gravity is the most destructive force in existence. I guarantee everything that occurs in the manga under the definition of destruction doesn't even begin to amount to the force that is responsible for destroying and creating planets.



CST can destroy but not in the same way that a Bijudama can. It was not able to even destroy the houses completely, it simply knocked them down and pushed the rubble away, while a Bijudama would completely eradicate the houses. That's the kind of damage that is needed to take down PS, not the kind that can only knock a house down and push it away. That's essentially what would happen to PS, he would get knocked down and pushed back but it would not be destroyed. 




> He doesn't know he has it. What aren't you understanding?
> 
> 1. He does not know what it looks like
> 2. He's never seen it before
> ...



1. Are you serious? Why did Jiraiya know what it looked like? How did both Madara and Kabuto know that you need Uchiha AND Senju DNA to unlock the Rinnengan?  
2. Does not matter, its obviously been described otherwise Jiraiya would not have known it when he saw it. 
3. Irrelevant, he knows that the Uzamaki are a dangerous clan. And he will notice Nagato's huge chakra. That should be reason enough for him to start with Susanoo in itself.
4. How long do you think he will be? Do you seriously think he will be at that distance for the duration of the battle?



> Nagato will CLEARLY identify his opponent as Madara Uchiha as he'll recognize the chakra power scale and recognize that it's similar to Itachi's, aside from recognizing his physical appearance.



Nagato thinks Madara is Obito, he won't identify anything.


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## Chad (Jan 11, 2014)

PS only tanked a bijuudama that's twice as big as what Nagato has ever output without a scratch. I'm sure that Nagato's attacks that are on a much smaller scale than the Kyuubi can harm PS. 

Plus, your size comparisons were turrible.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> and with out izuna's eyes Madara wouldn't be that strong either he would just be regular



Without Madara's eyes Nagato would be a nobody with a lot of chakra.but I fail to see why this matters when most characters have gotten a power-up from someone else.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 11, 2014)

PS that's all to the fight


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 11, 2014)

Nagato had no problem Absorbing Naruto's Tailed Beast Rasengan barrage or are many of you implying that Madara (Without any help from HAshirama's powers) has more chakra then the nine tailed fox and Susanoo can withstand all of Nagato's most powerful attack's?

I don't think so. Because remember when the 5th hokage broke through Perfect Susanoo? And im pretty sure Nagato's punches(best attacks) are FAR stronger then anything the 5th hokage can dish out.

Normally I try not to be bias when im the OP but you people are severely underestimating Nagato's feats. And remember no one can summon anything and Madara has no knowledge of the powers of the Rinnegan.\

One more thing...for all you people saying Nagato can't dodge PS? Um......did you not see how he could run away from the nine tails at insane speeds when he attacked the hidden leaf. Yes he was in an avatar but im pretty sure his real body could do the same thing.


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## Jagger (Jan 11, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Eh, Prime Nagato should be able to pull him out of PS before it's even animated with BT, the same way he pulled KCM Naruto and a fucking meteor from space.
> 
> Madara cannot perceive the Chameleon or destroy the Cerberus.
> 
> ...


But, you're quite wrong with your assumption. Nagato's small meteor was never shwon to come from the outer space like the one Madara pulled down (or just created out of thin air) because of the traces of water within the giant rock's structure, which heavily implies the rock comes from the river that was at Nagato's right when the fight the started.

Nagato has never shown to absorb an incredible amount of chakra that is distributed like that. Of course, he sucked away all the chakra that covered Bee in his VS form, but because all that chakra was concentrated in one single human body, thus, allowing him to take it much easier than trying to absorb the chakra of a chakra structure as big as a Bijuu or even bigger.


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## Psp123789 (Jan 11, 2014)

genii96 said:


> the shockwaves are not mountain busters,they just end up cutting off the mountain tops,and none of the gokage were killed.


Doesn't matter since that's still enough to kill Nagato. The gokage weren't killed because Madara was playing around with them and PS was deactivated when edo tensei was released. Madara was also just trying to show off his power so that gokage would realize how inferior they are to him. If he had stayed in PS another direct slash would have destroyed the gokage.


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## Jagger (Jan 11, 2014)

Also, Madara wasn't aiming at the Gokage, so it's no surprise the attack didn't kill them.


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## Krippy (Jan 11, 2014)

Are nagato fans arguing that he stands a chance here? 

PS swings it's sword.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> When has Susanoo ever grabbed Madara? If Nagato is to Bansho Tenin him when is the Susanoo going to grab him before or after he's already out of the Susanoo because when hes out the Susanoo its rendered useless and disappears correct? And if he's in the Susanoo about to get pulled out of it the Susanoo was never shown to put its hands inside its body. So Bansho Tenin ultimately take him out the susanoo. While Nagato is pulling him and he uses Susanoo again the Bansho Tenin is still active so the same thing would happen he would just go flying out of that Susanoo and with out Susanoo Nagato wipes the floor with him. Then just soul rip him and as was shown when he fought bee and naruto the use of arms was not needed to absorb ninjutsu



It does not have to have feats to grab Madara to say it can, if Susanoo can grab people I don't see why the user of Susanoo cannot will Susanoo to grab him from danger. Hence, why Gaara immobilized Susanoo's joints before taking Madara out. And no Susanoo does not disappear until its either destroyed or the user wills it to dissapear (or the user does not have enough chakra to sustain it). If Madara uses Susanoo right next to Nagato Susanoo can attack Nagato, wether Madara is in Susanoo or not and given the close distance Nagato would get screwered. If Nagato gets ahold of him Madara Gejutsus him, without intel I don't see why Nagato won't meet Madara's gaze. Or the Katon I mentioned is also a valid counter, as it will both burn Nagato and act as a smoke screen for Madara to regain a comfortable position.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 11, 2014)

Anybody with an iota of understanding of literary intent should be able to tell that the two are leagues apart in both feats and portrayal. Madara has been acclaimed as the greatest shinobi of all time, save for Hashirama - who was basically the closest thing Naruto had to a God at the time the two were alive, and the only reason Nagato has his powers to begin with is because Madara gave him his eyes. 

Save for two jutsu, Nagato has no jutsu comparable in scale to Madara's techniques, and even then, the large scale shinra tensei and chibaku tensei are easily countered and destroyed in this case. The former hasn't shown the capacity to destroy something like perfect Susano'o and leaves Nagato heavily weakened, while the latter has been destroyed by weaker attacks. 

In regards to:



> Madara has no knowledge of the powers of the Rinnegan.



This is false, since Madara clearly fought Hashirama with the purpose of integrating his cells afterwards (be it via loss or victory) for the sake of attaining the Rinnegan in mind.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 11, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Anybody with an iota of understanding of literary intent should be able to tell that the two are leagues apart in both feats and portrayal. Madara has been acclaimed as the greatest shinobi of all time, save for Hashirama - who was basically the closest thing Naruto had to a God at the time the two were alive, and the only reason Nagato has his powers to begin with is because Madara gave him his eyes.
> 
> Save for two jutsu, Nagato has no jutsu comparable in scale to Madara's techniques, and even then, the large scale shinra tensei and chibaku tensei are easily countered and destroyed in this case. The former hasn't shown the capacity to destroy something like perfect Susano'o and leaves Nagato heavily weakened, while the latter has been destroyed by weaker attacks.
> 
> ...



This is a make believe scenario I created, as I said above Madara has no knowledge you are actually incorrect.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> This is a make believe scenario I created, as I said above Madara has no knowledge you are actually incorrect.



It does not change the outcome of this match.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> It does not have to have feats to grab Madara to say it can, if Susanoo can grab people I don't see why the user of Susanoo cannot will Susanoo to grab him from danger. Hence, why Gaara immobilized Susanoo's joints before taking Madara out. And no Susanoo does not disappear until its either destroyed or the user wills it to dissapear (or the user does not have enough chakra to sustain it). If Madara uses Susanoo right next to Nagato Susanoo can attack Nagato, wether Madara is in Susanoo or not and given the close distance Nagato would get screwered. If Nagato gets ahold of him Madara Gejutsus him, without intel I don't see why Nagato won't meet Madara's gaze. Or the Katon I mentioned is also a valid counter, as it will both burn Nagato and act as a smoke screen for Madara to regain a comfortable position.


The user can not use Susanoo when he is not in it where are u getting your information from? 75% of the things you told me have been false or not proven true. And when Nagato BTs Madara over he can just charge his asura gun which would blow Madara to pieces. If not a BT to counter Susanoo he can just absorb the Sword when its about to make a direct hit and if u notice when Nagato absorbs ninjutsu he not only sucks it up but he stops the momentum of the attack like when it makes contact with the absorption the attack stops and get sucked up so no momentum no strong shockwave. And if those won't work u are forgetting Nagato can fly can a shockwave honestly affect a person in mid air? Most Nagato would get out of the shockwave in mid air is a good breeze. And i doubt a shockwave that failed to kill any of the gokage can actually kill Nagato who i believe can solo the gokage aswell


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## Jagger (Jan 11, 2014)

Again. The swing of Madara's PS sword didn't kill the Gokage because they were not in the way of the attack.

Madara stated multiple times he wanted to break the Gokage's morale before killing them. That was another proof of that, he wanted to show them they're no better than ants in comparison with his power,


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## Bonly (Jan 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> The user can not use Susanoo when he is not in it where are u getting your information from?



Actually they can. Read this. Itachi used his Susanoo to seal Nagato while he wasn't inside of it.


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## ARGUS (Jan 11, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Actually they can. Read this. Itachi used his Susanoo to seal Nagato while he wasn't inside of it.



The totsuka had already hit Nagato by then 
possibly while he was still inside of it 
therefore we  still don't know if users can use susano without being in it


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## Bonly (Jan 11, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> The totsuka had already hit Nagato by then
> possibly while he was still inside of it
> therefore we  still don't know if users can use susano without being in it



From the time Itachi stabbed Nagato while standing next to Naruto and B, the three of them had been shown to be standing in the same spot without moving. Nothing suggest any one of the three moved


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 11, 2014)

Bonly said:


> From the time Itachi stabbed Nagato while standing next to Naruto and B, the three of them had been shown to be standing in the same spot without moving. Nothing suggest any one of the three moved


and nothing suggest they didnt move you don't know if Itachi stabbed him with totsuka then got out of it



Jagger said:


> Again. The swing of Madara's PS sword didn't kill the Gokage because they were not in the way of the attack.
> 
> Madara stated multiple times he wanted to break the Gokage's morale before killing them. That was another proof of that, he wanted to show them they're no better than ants in comparison with his power,


But if hes in air a shckwave would not affect him it would feel like a gust


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## Bonly (Jan 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> and nothing suggest they didnt move you don't know if Itachi stabbed him with totsuka then got out of it



Kishi makes it that they stand still not moving ever since they were shown yet nothing suggest they didn't move?  Good say sir


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> The user can not use Susanoo when he is not in it where are u getting your information from?



Wrong, HERE  we clearly see that Itachi was standing outside of Susanoo when he sealed Nagato. Saying that he was in Susanoo when he stabbed Nagato and then moved out is only an assumption. 




> 75% of the things you told me have been false or not proven true


.

Like what? Don't make such bold statements when you are not willing to prove your claim. 



> And when Nagato BTs Madara over he can just charge his asura gun which would blow Madara to pieces



When Nagato pulls Madara within range Madara will activate Susanoo and chop Nagato in half, Susanoo easily tanks Asura Cannon. 



> If not a BT to counter Susanoo he can just absorb the Sword when its about to make a direct hit and if u notice when Nagato absorbs ninjutsu he not only sucks it up but he stops the momentum of the attack like when it makes contact with the absorption the attack stops and get sucked up so no momentum no strong shockwave


. 

Absorb the sword? As in the PS sword? The PS sword will not be hitting Nagato directly, it will hit the ground which will cause a fast shockwave to hit Nagato who will have to resort to a strong enough Shinra Tensei, and then PS swings again............If Nagato is close enough to litteraly be under the sword it would mean he is also close enough to get squashed like a bug under PS's foot. 



> And if those won't work u are forgetting Nagato can fly can a shockwave honestly affect a person in mid air? Most Nagato would get out of the shockwave in mid air is a good breeze. And i doubt a shockwave that failed to kill any of the gokage can actually kill Nagato who i believe can solo the gokage aswell



Madara cut mountains with a PS slash without actually hitting the ground, not to mention if Nagato resorts to flying on the a bird his mobility will depend on that of the birds. In which case he gets swatted down like a fly. Madara was not aiming for the Gokage, the first slash was simply to demonstrate his power and the shockwave was large enough to hit the Gokage. As for Nagato soloing the Gokage, I doubt it, mainly due to Ay but its not out of question. However beating Madara is defenetally out of question.


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## fior fior (Jan 12, 2014)

Just going to post this here again.



Until somebody explains to me why the strongest attack shown in the manga so far, besides maybe Naruto's Super Bijuu Dama, would not kill Madara and destroy Perfect Susanoo, there is no reason to believe that Nagato would lose.


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

fior fior said:


> Just going to post this here again.
> 
> [sp][/sp]
> 
> Until somebody explains to me why the strongest attack shown in the manga so far, besides maybe Naruto's Super Bijuu Dama, would not kill Madara and destroy Perfect Susanoo, there is no reason to believe that Nagato would lose.



naruto's super bijuu bomb is FAR stronger than nagato's CT.infact super BB's from all the bijuu's are far stronger from nagato's CT.and madara's PS is easily scalable to those bijuu super bijuu bomb.and nagato dosen't have any durability feat.


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## fior fior (Jan 12, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> naruto's super bijuu bomb is FAR stronger than nagato's CT.infact super BB's from all the bijuu's are far stronger from nagato's CT.and madara's PS is easily scalable to those bijuu super bijuu bomb.and nagato dosen't have any durability feat.



The size of that impact crater is a mountain deep and multiple mountains across. That statement is utterly groundless until you give me proof. The size of the impact crater left by Naruto's Super Bijuu Dama was roughly the same size as the one left by Nagato's CST.


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

fior fior said:


> The size of that impact crater is a mountain deep and multiple mountains across. That statement is utterly groundless until you give me proof. The size of the impact crater left by Naruto's Super Bijuu Dama was roughly the same size as the one left by Nagato's CST.



well,those feats have been calced many times in OBD.since i'm posting from my phone i can't link you the calcs.nagato's CT is calced at 69 gigaton it's island level+.and naruto super bijuu bomb is 8 teraton,it's country level.all the bijuu's have teraton level fire power.and nagato dosen't have any good durability feat so madara will need to hit him only once.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> naruto's super bijuu bomb is FAR stronger than nagato's CT.infact super BB's from all the bijuu's are far stronger from nagato's CT.and madara's PS is easily scalable to those bijuu super bijuu bomb.and nagato dosen't have any durability feat.



Just because it has a large AoE does not make it any more potent then a Bijudama, it lacks the sheer destructive power to destroy something like PS.


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Just because it has a large AoE does not make it any more potent then a Bijudama, it lacks the sheer destructive power to destroy something like PS.



yes it depends on the type of destruction.AOE isn't that relevant.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> This is a make believe scenario I created, as I said above Madara has no knowledge you are actually incorrect.



Your scenario doesn't stipulate that Madara has no knowledge of the Rinnegan. It was clear that, even before he lost against Hashirama, he knew of it and presumably what it was capable of doing since he was so knowledgeable about the lore of Naruto. Again, the only thing Nagato has in his repertoire that's remotely capable of inflicting harm upon Madara are the large scale shinra tensei and chibaku tensei, but it's doubtful either of them would be effective here.

Shinra tensei hasn't shown to be able to inflict enough damage to destroy perfect Susano'o; it has a large area of effect, yes, but all it did was blow up a lot of buildings. Regardless of the fact that everyone else had Katsuyu, nobody died; if the attack was strong enough to blast through Susano'o, it would have ripped through Katsuyu and killed everyone. But it didn't. On top of that is the fact that Nagato needs to shut down all the other paths before using it, which leaves him open to ninjutsu spam from Madara, and even after using it, his Deva Realm needs a huge cool-down meaning he's limited to summons, missiles, lasers and what ever else once the attack is executed. 

Chibaku tensei probably wouldn't do it either; a six/eight tailed Naruto survived inside, and perfect Susano'o is just as big as the real thing and probably a lot stronger than eight tailed of half-Kurama; it's fairly obvious it wouldn't contain it. Combined with that, is the fact that it's been destroyed by a yasaka no magatama, bijū-dama and rasenshuriken combination before and one of Madara's perfect Susano'o swings has a damage output equal to the Kyūbi's bijū-dama (casually destroyed two mountains with a swing). Unless you think that the three attacks had equal power to one another, it's laughable to think Madara wouldn't be able to destroy it. Then, when you consider that Nagato needs to get some distance away first before using it (otherwise he gets pulled in and smashed into pieces) too, it's just really not all that conceivable.

And that's not even considering his uchihagaeshi, which took a small scale bijū-dama from Naruto and returned it back at him.


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## fior fior (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Just because it has a large AoE does not make it any more potent then a Bijudama, it lacks the sheer destructive power to destroy something like PS.



Is a mountain-deep, miles long crater not 'destructive' enough for you? It destroyed a city. How is it not 'destructive' enough to destroy Perfect Susanoo?



tkpirate said:


> yes it depends on the type of destruction.AOE isn't that relevant.



How do you measure destruction, then?

PS slash = destroys two mountains
CST = crater as deep as a mountain and as wide as a city

I think that's pretty self-explanatory.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

i can't believe we are still debating about this Nagato BT's him and if the Susanoo tries to grab him he can just kick up the power or move Madara out of the Susanoo's way im sure Susanoo cannot walk by himself.
And why can't Nagato just absorb PS?


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> i can't believe we are still debating about this Nagato BT's him and if the Susanoo tries to grab him he can just kick up the power or move Madara out of the Susanoo's way im sure Susanoo cannot walk by himself.



Susano'o can move without the user being directly inside of it, and it's more than likely Madara would just use the pull to fire off a jutsu at him and have it gravitate towards the main body instead to either hit Nagato or force him to cancel the jutsu.



> And why can't Nagato just absorb PS?



Because he's never shown the ability to absorb something of such a colossal size, maybe?


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## fior fior (Jan 12, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:
			
		

> Because he's never shown the ability to absorb something of such a colossal size, maybe?



He sucked up all of B's chakra in a matter of seconds. What makes you think that he can't absorb PS? Alternatively, he could absorb the Susano'o before it even reaches a greater size.


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## Sans (Jan 12, 2014)

Preta struggled with Rasenshuriken.

Preta was pinned down by Jiraiya's katon.

Preta will absorb Perfect Susano'o.

One of these things is not like the other.


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## fior fior (Jan 12, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> Preta struggled with Rasenshuriken.
> 
> Preta was pinned down by Jiraiya's katon.
> 
> ...



That's Pain, not Nagato.

Nagato effortlessly sucked B dry and absorbed all of Naruto's attacks and chakra arms.

The 'cool' mindset is the only thing keeping Madara alive in this fight. Nagato has the capability to simply one shot with CST before Madara even starts to build PS.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> Preta struggled with Rasenshuriken.
> 
> Preta was pinned down by Jiraiya's katon.
> 
> ...


That was Pain that was being controlled by a weakened Nagato don't compare the two Nagato's attacks are on a whole different level. And a chibaku Tensei can end this and for the shockwave part can't Nagato can fly so the shockwave wont be affective


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

fior fior said:


> He sucked up all of B's chakra in a matter of seconds. What makes you think that he can't absorb PS? Alternatively, he could absorb the Susano'o before it even reaches a greater size.



I don't think he can absorb perfect Susano'o because absorbing version two isn't the same as absorbing a bijū-sized power and structure. It's obvious he didn't absorb all of Bee's chakra because he was still entering version two and the Hachibi mode for literally hundreds of chapters after that. To begin with, version two is just a condensed version of the full Hachibi form.

Also, the absorption process isn't fast enough to absorb Susano'o before it can completely stabilize. In the time it would take Nagato to absorb a leg, he'll already have the sword down on him. 



fior fior said:


> The 'cool' mindset is the only thing keeping Madara alive in this fight. Nagato has the capability to simply one shot with CST before Madara even starts to build PS.



It takes Madara maybe one or two seconds to use perfect Susano'o. Do you think Nagato can fly up in the air, shut down five paths and then use that jutsu in a couple of seconds? I'm extremely dubious.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I don't think he can absorb perfect Susano'o because absorbing version two isn't the same as absorbing a bijū-sized power and structure. It's obvious he didn't absorb all of Bee's chakra because he was still entering version two and the Hachibi mode for literally hundreds of chapters after that. To begin with, version two is just a condensed version of the full Hachibi form.
> 
> Also, the absorption process isn't fast enough to absorb Susano'o before it can completely stabilize. In the time it would take Nagato to absorb a leg, he'll already have the sword down on him.
> 
> ...


Why does Nagato have to fly up in the air and where the hell did u get paths from as i recall this has nothing to do with his paths its just Nagato. ST is basically instant


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

fior fior said:


> How do you measure destruction, then?
> 
> PS slash = destroys two mountains
> CST = crater as deep as a mountain and as wide as a city
> ...



first,CST didn't make that crater,CT did.PS destroying two mountains was a casual swing to show off it's power.and it wasn't even a direct hit,but only shockwaves.and i told you before as well PS get's super BB scaling.though a teraton attack isn't needed to kill nagato because he has no good durability feat.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Why does Nagato have to fly up in the air and where the hell did u get paths from as i recall this has nothing to do with his paths its just Nagato. ST is basically instant



He needs to fly into the air to drop the attack like a bomb, otherwise the resulting shockwave of using it on the land would reach him as well.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> first,CST didn't make that crater,CT did.PS destroying two mountains was a casual swing to show off it's power.and it wasn't even a direct hit,but only shockwaves.and i told you before as well PS get's super BB scaling.though a teraton attack isn't needed to kill nagato because he has no good durability feat.


PS did not destroy two mountains stop saying that! He only chopped the top of the two mountains off. everyone boosts Madara up more than he truly is


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> PS did not destroy two mountains stop saying that! He only chopped the top of the two mountains off. everyone boosts Madara up more than he truly is



That's sort of rich, considering there are also people basically saying Nagato can one shot Madara with a single jutsu off the bat. Madara overestimation here isn't the problem; it's the _under_estimating him and overestimating Nagato to be leagues above his actual strength that is. 

Do you think Nagato can fight against something of this scale? Does he have an attack as large as this? Because that's what it takes to remotely threaten Madara and his perfect Susano'o.


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## Sans (Jan 12, 2014)

fior fior said:


> That's Pain, not Nagato.
> 
> Nagato effortlessly sucked B dry and absorbed all of Naruto's attacks and chakra arms.



Point is that that Preta has displayed the jutsu does indeed have a limit.

Samehada was capable of eating Kirabi's chakra to the point of exhaustion, which Nagato clearly didn't do, considering he went on to fight Nagato and the Juubi. So do you think Samehada could also make quick work of Madara's Perfect Susano'o?

*Edit:* Naruto had split his chakra multiple times with Tajuu Kage Bunshin. Nagato's absorption was far less than you state, considering his shroud remained active, he used chakra arms to defend against soul rip and then went on to fight Obito. Nagato absorbed a Rasengan, he didn't chakra drain Naruto enough to inhibit continued combat at all.

Preta isn't on the same scale as Perfect Susano'o, it was made very clear that Madara and Hashirama far surpassed anything shown previously in the manga. Nagato can strain himself to the utmost to reach the same scale that Madara and Hashirama fight in casually.



fior fior said:


> The 'cool' mindset is the only thing keeping Madara alive in this fight. Nagato has the capability to simply one shot with CST before Madara even starts to build PS.



Yeah, Kishi would definitely draw Madara getting one-shot. 

Madara pre-empted a combined Gokage assault that was already underway with his Perfect Susano'o formation.

Deva's Shinra Tensei was reflected back on it by Kyuubi Naruto as well. That's more likely to happen here than anything else.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> That's sort of rich, considering there are also people basically saying Nagato can one shot Madara with a single jutsu off the bat. Madara overestimation here isn't the problem; it's the _under_estimating him and overestimating Nagato to be leagues above his actual strength that is.
> 
> Do you think Nagato can fight against something of this scale? Does he have an attack as large as this? Because that's what it takes to remotely threaten Madara and his perfect Susano'o.


Actually the problem is how you are accusing me of saying something i never said if you can just refer to the earlier post you would see your blind ignorance and dumb accusations


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Actually the problem is how you are accusing me of saying something i never said if you can just refer to the earlier post you would see your blind ignorance and dumb accusations



Yeah, I misread and got you mixed up with fior fior because of your similar avatars. My mistake, but it doesn't really change the fact that there is gross overestimation of Nagato taking place here. Everything said in support of Madara has been substantiated with scans and canon; the same cannot be said for your arguments.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

fior fior said:


> How do you measure destruction, then?
> 
> PS slash = destroys two mountains
> CST = crater as deep as a mountain and as wide as a city
> ...



Again, potency=/=AoE. 

If CST was just as potent as a Bijudama and had that AoE all the rubble would be eradicated, as would Katsuyu and all the people that where there. PS slash concentrates its power on a single target making it much more likely to destroy that specific target while CST concentrates its power on AoE. PS slash would be able to destroy any rubble in its path while CST cannot, it simply pushes it aside. What do you think is more potent, Jinton or Bijudama? The obvious answer is Jinton as it eradicates everything on a moleculer level. 



fior fior said:


> Is a mountain-deep, miles long crater not 'destructive' enough for you? It destroyed a city. How is it not 'destructive' enough to destroy Perfect Susanoo?



Because it did not destroy any of the specific targets, like rubble or Katsuyu. By your logic a Bijudama is more potent then a Jinton because it has a greater AoE. 



fior fior said:


> That's Pain, not Nagato.
> 
> Nagato effortlessly sucked B dry and absorbed all of Naruto's attacks and chakra arms.



Nagato effortlessly sucked Bee dry because his chakra was comepletly out in the open, he was literally covered in chakra while Ninjutsu is a byproduct of chakra, it makes it harder to absorb. 



sanninme rikudo said:


> i can't believe we are still debating about this Nagato BT's him and if the Susanoo tries to grab him he can just kick up the power or move Madara out of the Susanoo's way im sure Susanoo cannot walk by himself.
> And why can't Nagato just absorb PS?



Nagato will not have enough power to pull Madara out of Susanoo's grip, the more owner he uses the longer he has to wait till he can use it again. What counter Nagato would have to THIS  if he pulls him in with BT? What makes you think Nagato won't be looking directly at Madara, which would make him vulnerable to Genjutsu? What makes you think Madara won't simply use Susanoo when near Nagato and crush him?


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

fior fior said:


> How do you measure destruction, then?
> 
> .



i'm not a specialist in this matter,but as far as i know AOE is one thing,but the type if destruction is very importent.vaporization or pulverisation of some rocks will have higher DC value than breaking some rocks.i think there are technical ways to know the type of destruction.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> i'm not a specialist in this matter,but as far as i know AOE is one thing,but the type if destruction is very importent.vaporization or pulverisation of some rocks will have higher DC value than breaking some rocks.i think there are technical ways to know the type of destruction.



I'm pretty sure that no matter how you define the types of destruction, having enough concentrated energy output to slice the tops off of mountains with shockwaves alone is more than anything Nagato can pull out immediately.


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> PS did not destroy two mountains stop saying that! He only chopped the top of the two mountains off. everyone boosts Madara up more than he truly is



i used the word 'destroy' because the person i was replying to had used that word.the feat was city level anyway,and it enough to kill nagato.and madara has teraton level DC with PS,so destroying mountains dosen't even matter to him.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Again, potency=/=AoE.
> 
> If CST was just as potent as a Bijudama and had that AoE all the rubble would be eradicated, as would Katsuyu and all the people that where there. PS slash concentrates its power on a single target making it much more likely to destroy that specific target while CST concentrates its power on AoE. PS slash would be able to destroy any rubble in its path while CST cannot, it simply pushes it aside. What do you think is more potent, Jinton or Bijudama? The obvious answer is Jinton as it eradicates everything on a moleculer level.
> 
> ...


I never said he should BT him when susanoo has him in his grip i said he should BT him then try to move him away from susanoo so he doesn't grip him and if he spawns it again it be already to late because Nagato can have the asura gun charged already and just blow him to pieces And why can't Nagato just CT him?


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm pretty sure that no matter how you define the types of destruction, having enough concentrated energy output to slice the tops off of mountains with shockwaves alone is more than anything Nagato can pull out immediately.


And btw can u tell me this How can Nagato get affected by the shockwave if he's in mid air? he wouldn't really be that affected would he?


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> And btw can u tell me this How can Nagato get affected by the shockwave if he's in mid air? he wouldn't really be that affected would he?



That's why I said he needs to be in the air, actually.


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## Sans (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I never said he should BT him when susanoo has him in his grip i said he should BT him then try to move him away from susanoo so he doesn't grip him and if he spawns it again it be already to late because Nagato can have the asura gun charged already and just blow him to pieces And why can't Nagato just CT him?



Madara blocks the Asura path with his gunbai.

If Nagato survives long enough to use Chibaku Tensei, the core gets sliced in half well before it can accumulate enough debris to make it a contest.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> Madara blocks the Asura path with his gunbai.
> 
> If Nagato survives long enough to use Chibaku Tensei, the core gets sliced in half well before it can accumulate enough debris to make it a contest.


With out the proper intel Madara wont know to slice the core which means thats game over and if he blocks the asura gun with his gunbai then nagato soul rips him


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> That's why I said he needs to be in the air, actually.


No i meant Madara's PS shockwave


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> With out the proper intel Madara wont know to slice the core which means thats game over and if he blocks the asura gun with his gunbai then nagato soul rips him



Madara is a veteran shinobi who has basically been fighting for all his time. Attacking the core which seems to facilitate the attraction of the jutsu would be common sense.



sanninme rikudo said:


> No i meant Madara's PS shockwave



The shockwave travels through air, I guess? I mean, he doesn't exactly need to use the shockwave either. Madara could probably just attack him with the actual sword.


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## Sans (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> With out the proper intel Madara wont know to slice the core which means thats game over and if he blocks the asura gun with his gunbai then nagato soul rips him



So Madara will just stare at the sky in amazement while it consumes him?

Kabuto reflected to himself that Nagato's issue was his mobility. How is he outmaneuvering someone who just reflected his own attack back at him, has a giant weapon to massively extend his range, Sharingan precognition and superior taijutsu skill plus speed?


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm pretty sure that no matter how you define the types of destruction, having enough concentrated energy output to slice the tops off of mountains with shockwaves alone is more than anything Nagato can pull out immediately.



yes indeed.and nagato dosen't have good durability feat.so he will get killed by one of those.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Madara is a veteran shinobi who has basically been fighting for all his time. Attacking the core which seems to facilitate the attraction of the jutsu would be common sense.
> 
> 
> 
> The shockwave travels through air, I guess? I mean, he doesn't exactly need to use the shockwave either. Madara could probably just attack him with the actual sword.


Yes a shockwave can travel through air but to make a great effect it needs a stronger medium


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I never said he should BT him when susanoo has him in his grip i said he should BT him then try to move him away from susanoo so he doesn't grip him and if he spawns it again it be already to late because Nagato can have the asura gun charged already and just blow him to pieces And why can't Nagato just CT him?



How would he mo him away? BT is pretty straight forward, it pulls Madara towards him, Susanoo can easily grab him. Asura cannons won't hit Madara, thanks to Susanoo. And Madara has his own techniques he can use. CT gets broken out of, if a Kurama with only 30-40% percent power was able to so can PS. Or it simply get destroyed via PS slash.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yes a shockwave can travel through air but to make a great effect it needs a stronger medium



Air served just fine as a medium the last two times Madara decided to slice through a few mountains.


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## Sans (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yes a shockwave can travel through air but to make a great effect it needs a stronger medium



Actually all it needs is a scan of slicing through an entire mountain range.

Which it has.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 12, 2014)

Madara kills Nagato with violence.

They're not even in the same class.

Madara can just flail his PS sword around in the air willy nilly and it will kill Nagato and scar the planet with shockwaves.  At the cost of his own life, Nagato might be able to block one of them with his strongest defensive technique.

CT is really simple.  Madara has a giant sword that can blow up a mountain and cut the earth asunder for miles, and an ever growing thing in front of him he doesn't like.  Using his unsurpassed genius, he will apply one to the other one and solve his problem.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 12, 2014)

Madara can overpower CT pretty casually.

either destroying it from a range with sword slashes during its formation ,or he can jump towards the core and hit it with his swords. His own momentum + strength + the gravitational pull = CT gets destroyed regardless of which state it is in.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 12, 2014)

Madara wins with difficulty. 
If you factor in Nagato's Ninjutsu hype, then how easily (or if Madara wins at all) depends on what you feel is the extent of Nagato's mastery.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Air served just fine as a medium the last two times Madara decided to slice through a few mountains.


The shockwave did not use air as the medium as u can see it scraped the ground which gave it much more force in air u won't feel a shockwave because its air you would just feel a gust of wind so a shockwave from Madara killing Nagato isn't happening



Destiny Monarch said:


> How would he mo him away? BT is pretty straight forward, it pulls Madara towards him, Susanoo can easily grab him. Asura cannons won't hit Madara, thanks to Susanoo. And Madara has his own techniques he can use. CT gets broken out of, if a Kurama with only 30-40% percent power was able to so can PS. Or it simply get destroyed via PS slash.


I said it multiple times he can move Madara away from the Susanoo hand so the Susanoo doesn't  grab him. Hows Madara suppose to use Susanoo when he was just pulled out of it So the asura attack will blow him away still. And again why the hell are comparing Pain with Nagato and it wasn't even a full power Pain it was a pain that was being controlled by a frail weakened Nagato and he just finished using Shinra Tensei which messed him up even more so if he could acually do that with all those disadvantages and limits imagine what the actual Nagato would do especially now that he's at his prime. And Madara would not know to slice the core he'd probably slice the rocks getting sucked up to the center which wouldn't really do much



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Madara can overpower CT pretty casually.
> 
> either destroying it from a range with sword slashes during its formation ,or he can jump towards the core and hit it with his swords. His own momentum + strength + the gravitational pull = CT gets destroyed regardless of which state it is in.


Yea not at all! Madara won't know to destoy the core he would probably just cut everything around it. And it would really mater because if Madara tries to slash Nagato his sword would come to a stop and get absorbed and with all that Chakra imagine the ST he'd pull off


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> The shockwave did not use air as the medium as u can see it scraped the ground which gave it much more force in air u won't feel a shockwave because its air you would just feel a gust of wind so a shockwave from Madara killing Nagato isn't happening



Well firstly, that's not how shockwaves work. The shockwave of an attack that produces enough energy to destroy mountain tops would do a sizable level of damage regardless of mediums. 



> I said it multiple times he can move Madara away from the Susanoo hand so the Susanoo doesn't  grab him. Hows Madara suppose to use Susanoo when he was just pulled out of it



I don't know. Ask Itachi, since his Susano'o seems to operate perfectly fine when he's not in it. 



> So the asura attack will blow him away still.



It really won't, since his gunbai would be more than capable of reflecting it back at him.



> And Madara would not know to slice the core he'd probably slice the rocks getting sucked up to the center which wouldn't really do much



Madara isn't stupid. He's a hardened war veteran who has spent his entire lifetime fighting. Attacking the thing that seems to facilitate the entire jutsu is common sense, not a battle tactic. 



> get absorbed and with all that Chakra imagine the ST he'd pull off



Firstly, that's not how the chakra absorption works. Fūjutsu kyūin doesn't absorb it into the body and keep it there; it gets dispersed. The only reason Nagato managed to use Bee's to rejuvenate himself was because he was quick enough to capitalize on the few moments it had before it was dispersed; this is not a luxury he would have with Madara. Secondly, fūjutsu kyūin has not shown the ability to absorb anything like perfect Susano'o.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yea not at all! Madara won't know to destoy the core he would probably just cut everything around it. And it would really mater because if Madara tries to slash Nagato his sword would come to a stop and get absorbed and with all that Chakra imagine the ST he'd pull off



Nagato can't stop a PS sword slash with absorbtion. It is a physical impact(not talking about the sword itself). He may hope to stop it with a bigass ST but Madara can then send another and atomize him.

As for CT, he doesn't need to attack the core right away. PS has plenty of strength and attack power to overpower it.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Well firstly, that's not how shockwaves work. The shockwave of an attack that produces enough energy to destroy mountain tops would do a sizable level of damage regardless of mediums.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shockwaves need mediums to travel in. They do not affect until it reaches an endpoint meaning it will not do any damage or dissipate unless it reaches where ever solid or liquid it touches. which is why his shockwave scraped the ground and sliced the mountain. In air the Shockwave has a medium to travel through but no endpoint so with out an end point its nothing more than a strong wind until it reaches its endpoint. and unfortunately for Madara with distance and time taking affect on the shockwave its power will decrease and weaken.
Nagato doesn't need to use the asura gun he can just soul rip him
And where have you seen susanoo walk around by itself i would like to see that
Doesn't matter if he's a veteran Madara has never come in contact with something like a CT when he was fighting during his days so you don't know if he would actually be smart to do that
i Why is that not a luxury he would have with Madara? If he was able to use the chakra he got from bee he should be able to use the one he would get from Madara Plus he can BT Madara into his absorption barrier and Madaras chakra would be sucked up aswell


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato can't stop a PS sword slash with absorbtion. It is a physical impact(not talking about the sword itself). He may hope to stop it with a bigass ST but Madara can then send another and atomize him.
> 
> As for CT, he doesn't need to attack the core right away. PS has plenty of strength and attack power to overpower it.


If its the shockwave your talking about that won't work if Nagato is in mid air so his only hope is to try to attack with the sword and thats just going to get absorbed 
And what do you mean overpower how do you over power a CT? please explain


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## DeK3iDE (Jan 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> As always in the Nagato vs EMS Madara(without Kurama) thread I always see it that with PS Madara would eventually win, actually that is Madara's only way of winning. So if PS+Kurama is aloud then Madara wins, without both then he loses so yeah Madara wins more times then not here.


realistically, Nagato might still be at a disadvantage since Rinnegan does nothing for Nagato in regards to anticipating an incoming atk. Arguably, Madara could just speed blitz him to death really, especially if he fodderized SM Naruto with 1 speed blitz tour.


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## Jagger (Jan 12, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> Preta struggled with Rasenshuriken.
> 
> Preta was pinned down by Jiraiya's katon.
> 
> ...


If you take Madara's statement, I really doubt Madara was specifically[ about the amount of chakra he absorbed.

In fact, the Path itself has never shown to struggle with anything. Moving on from that, though, I don't think he can absorb Preta Path.

It's not really about the amount of chakra it can absorb, but the huge size of the structure that it needs to be absorbed. Nagato was able to suck away VS Bee's chakra because it was all concentrated in one single point instead of a huge radius.

Even then, let's assume Nagato can absorb the chakra. What is Madara going to do? Stay there and watch Nagato deal with his strongest jutsu? Lolno.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I said it multiple times he can move Madara away from the Susanoo hand so the Susanoo doesn't  grab him. Hows Madara suppose to use Susanoo when he was just pulled out of it So the asura attack will blow him away still. And again why the hell are comparing Pain with Nagato and it wasn't even a full power Pain it was a pain that was being controlled by a frail weakened Nagato and he just finished using Shinra Tensei which messed him up even more so if he could acually do that with all those disadvantages and limits imagine what the actual Nagato would do especially now that he's at his prime. And Madara would not know to slice the core he'd probably slice the rocks getting sucked up to the center which wouldn't really do much



And I've said it multiple times before, BT is simply attractive force, he cannot sike out Susanoo using Madara as a ragdoll, that's not how it works. I was taking into account the scenario if Madara does not use Susanoo off the bat. How much better he could do it in his prime is unknown, you cannot speculate on those kinds of things. Peins feats are just as good as the normal Nagatos if not a bit worse, that's all we can say. Madara would know to slice the core, it does not take a genius to figure out that if you destroy the black orb that is pulling everything towards it the gravitational pull will stop and Madara is smart.  Besides, like I said PS can break out of CT.


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## ARGUS (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> And I've said it multiple times before, BT is simply attractive force, he cannot sike out Susanoo using Madara as a ragdoll, that's not how it works. I was taking into account the scenario if Madara does not use Susanoo off the bat. How much better he could do it in his prime is unknown, you cannot speculate on those kinds of things. Peins feats are just as good as the normal Nagatos if not a bit worse, that's all we can say. Madara would know to slice the core, it does not take a genius to figure out that if you destroy the black orb that is pulling everything towards it the gravitational pull will stop and Madara is smart.  Besides, like I said PS can break out of CT.



I agree with you here,, but u know it is possible that Nagato can BT madara out of his susanoo if the distance from PS to himself isnt that much,,,, afterall it is an attractive force


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> I agree with you here,, but u know it is possible that Nagato can BT madara out of his susanoo if the distance from PS to himself isnt that much,,,, afterall it is an attractive force



PS is very big,nagato never used BT from such a long distance.and we don't know if nagato can BT madara out of his PS or not.and madara is faster,so he can swing his sward casually when nagato is trying to BT him.


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> If its the shockwave your talking about that won't work if Nagato is in mid air so his only hope is to try to attack with the sword and thats just going to get absorbed
> And what do you mean overpower how do you over power a CT? please explain



it will work and madara's PS can use those big swards in both it's hand.


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## ARGUS (Jan 13, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> PS is very big,nagato never used BT from such a long distance.and we don't know if nagato can BT madara out of his PS or not.and madara is faster,so he can swing his sward casually when nagato is trying to BT him.



You do know that if madara tries to use PS slash while hes being BT out of it then he is also harming himself from the shockwave 
moreover if he wants to cast the PS slash,,, then he also has to resist the force of BT 
well didnt  nagato use ST from long distances,
its the same force but instead of repelling its attracting,, and nagato can fly as well,,, therefore he can fly near the PS height and immediately try to BT Madara out of it 
Im not saying it will definitely work but its possible,,, i guess we'll find out


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## tkpirate (Jan 13, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> You do know that if madara tries to use PS slash while hes being BT out of it then he is also harming himself from the shockwave
> moreover if he wants to cast the PS slash,,, then he also has to resist the force of BT
> well didnt  nagato use ST from long distances,
> its the same force but instead of repelling its attracting,, and nagato can fly as well,,, therefore he can fly near the PS height and immediately try to BT Madara out of it
> Im not saying it will definitely work but its possible,,, i guess we'll find out



because madara is faster than nagato he can swing his sward before getting out of PS.ST and BT are not same,nagato dosen't have a long range BT feat.and nagato can't fly,he can jump.but as high as PS ?i don't know.also,PS is a sort of ultimate defence,much stronger than gaara's sand defence.so,i don't think nagato can pull madara out of PS.


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## ARGUS (Jan 13, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> because madara is faster than nagato he can swing his sward before getting out of PS.ST and BT are not same,nagato dosen't have a long range BT feat.and nagato can't fly,he can jump.but as high as PS ?i don't know.



If Deva can fly,  then  so can Nagato 
he can also use his bird  summon to fly 
Umm The arc that the PS  slash makes is huge,,, ST is jus the opposite of BT reallly its obviious,,, ST and BT are instant it  was actually stated in the manga
It is very possible for Nagato to use a long range BT,,, and pull madara  out  of  his PS  
This is debatable,,, and also possible since Kishi has made the Rinnegan to be superior to EMS,,, and i believe this could be one of  the counters to PS,, possibly??
The BT just has to be timed correctly before the slash destroys him


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## tkpirate (Jan 13, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> If Deva can fly,  then  so can Nagato
> he can also use his bird  summon to fly
> Umm The arc that the PS  slash makes is huge,,, ST is jus the opposite of BT reallly its obviious,,, ST and BT are instant it  was actually stated in the manga
> It is very possible for Nagato to use a long range BT,,, and pull madara  out  of  his PS
> This is debatable,,, and also possible since Kishi has made the Rinnegan to be superior to EMS,,, and i believe this could be one of  the counters to PS,, possibly??



deva can't fly either.he jumped up high when he used ST on those frogs.he can't stay in the air for a long time.and he would surely get hit by a PS slash if he tries to summon the bird.and if BT is oposite of ST with same power then he wouldn't be able to pull madara out of PS,because CT or even CST is nowhere near strong enough to damage PS.


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## ARGUS (Jan 13, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> deva can't fly either.he jumped up high when he used ST on those frogs.he can't stay in the air for a long time.and he would surely get hit by a PS slash if he tries to summon the bird.and if BT is oposite of ST with same power then he wouldn't be able to pull madara out of PS,because CT or even CST is nowhere near strong enough to damage PS.



I didnt  say anythingg about damaging PS,,, all i said that he has the means to  pull him out of it 
how is it jumping when Deva flew to destroy konoha,,, he was in the air for quite some time 
He can fly,,,, that should be established by now 
Why wouldnt he be able to pull madara out of his PS???? 
he can specify his attractiive force so what would be the problem in that..... 
pulling madara out of his PS,, is different from damaging it


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## tkpirate (Jan 13, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> I didnt  say anythingg about damaging PS,,, all i said that he has the means to  pull him out of it
> how is it jumping when Deva flew to destroy konoha,,, he was in the air for quite some time
> He can fly,,,, that should be established by now
> Why wouldnt he be able to pull madara out of his PS????
> ...



if you can't push something with the same power,you can't pull that same thing with that power either.and he would have to stay in the air longer than that to even try to pull madara out of PS,it wouldn't be as easy as pulling kakashi.but he dosen't have enough power to pull madara anyway.again all this pulling and pushing will give madara morethan enough time to swing his sward once.


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## The World (Jan 13, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Anybody with an iota of understanding of literary intent should be able to tell that the two are leagues apart in both feats and portrayal. Madara has been acclaimed as the greatest shinobi of all time, save for Hashirama - who was basically the closest thing Naruto had to a God at the time the two were alive, and the only reason Nagato has his powers to begin with is because Madara gave him his eyes.
> 
> Save for two jutsu, Nagato has no jutsu comparable in scale to Madara's techniques, and even then, the large scale shinra tensei and chibaku tensei are easily countered and destroyed in this case. The former hasn't shown the capacity to destroy something like perfect Susano'o and leaves Nagato heavily weakened, while the latter has been destroyed by weaker attacks.
> 
> ...



This is a somewhat restricted Madara

and leagues apart? please

EMS Madara is only 1 tier above Prime Nagato


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## ARGUS (Jan 13, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> deva can't fly either.he jumped up high when he used ST on those frogs.he can't stay in the air for a long time.and he would surely get hit by a PS slash if he tries to summon the bird.and if BT is oposite of ST with same power then he wouldn't be able to pull madara out of PS,because CT or even CST is nowhere near strong enough to damage PS.



IM pretty sure summoning all these animals  is one of the first things that nagato always does when in battle,,,, 
what im trying to say is that u  dont large amounts of power to pull him out of his PS
u need large amounts of power to negate the slash 
furthermore his attractive force only needs to be accurrate and timed perfectly before madara can slash him,,,, 
CST isnt,,, CT can be if the core develops to higher extent


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## tkpirate (Jan 13, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> IM pretty sure summoning all these animals  is one of the first things that nagato always does when in battle,,,,
> what im trying to say is that u  dont large amounts of power to pull him out of his PS
> u need large amounts of power to negate the slash
> furthermore his attractive force only needs to be accurrate and timed perfectly before madara can slash him,,,,
> CST isnt,,, CT can be if the core develops to higher extent



you are forgetting the speed factor.i'm understanding what you're trying to say,but there are no proof in the manga that says nagato can do that.if ST can't push him out of PS, BT can't pull him out either.and i say again madara is FASTER THAN nagato.


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## ARGUS (Jan 13, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> you are forgetting the speed factor.i'm understanding what you're trying to say,but there are no proof in the manga that says nagato can do that.if ST can't push him out of PS, BT can't pull him out either.and i say again madara is FASTER THAN nagato.



What does speed have to do in this.... 
The manga does state.... That ST or BT is instant... It's jus the charge time for the extremely strong variants.... ST can push him out of it and so can BT it's jus that ST won't be the suitable way since he's jus increasing the distance 
It's jus the attack has to be focused specifically on madara and not on his PS 
Cus We know PS can tank ST quite easily


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## tkpirate (Jan 13, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> What does speed have to do in this....
> The manga does state.... That ST or BT is instant... It's jus the charge time for the extremely strong variants.... ST can push him out of it and so can BT it's jus that ST won't be the suitable way since he's jus increasing the distance
> It's jus the attack has to be focused specifically on madara and not on his PS
> Cus We know PS can tank ST quite easily


speed is important in every fight.madara being faster than nagato means he will be able to make his attacks faster and before nagato's attacks.and even if BT is instant it won't be able to pull madara out instantly.and it's not about ST increasing the distance,it's about ST not being strong enough.and if ST isn't strong enough to push him then BT can't be strong enough to pull either.you can stop making these fanfictions.


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## Jagger (Jan 13, 2014)

I feel people forget Madara can do something while its giant jutsu is being absorbed.

If Nagato stays too close, he can die by a swing of Madara's sword or being stepped on. But, if he tries to create some distance between both, he wouldn't be capable of using Preta Path.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Shockwaves need mediums to travel in. They do not affect until it reaches an endpoint meaning it will not do any damage or dissipate unless it reaches where ever solid or liquid it touches. which is why his shockwave scraped the ground and sliced the mountain. In air the Shockwave has a medium to travel through but no endpoint so with out an end point its nothing more than a strong wind until it reaches its endpoint. and unfortunately for Madara with distance and time taking affect on the shockwave its power will decrease and weaken.
> Nagato doesn't need to use the asura gun he can just soul rip him
> And where have you seen susanoo walk around by itself i would like to see that
> Doesn't matter if he's a veteran Madara has never come in contact with something like a CT when he was fighting during his days so you don't know if he would actually be smart to do that
> i Why is that not a luxury he would have with Madara? If he was able to use the chakra he got from bee he should be able to use the one he would get from Madara Plus he can BT Madara into his absorption barrier and Madaras chakra would be sucked up aswell



Yeah, this isn't going to work. The fact that you actually think Nagato stands a chance of not being smashed into pieces shows that we have wildly different opinions here. At this point it's best to agree to disagree, because it's obvious I'm not getting through to you.

There's a reason why you're more or less one of few people who think Nagato can win here.


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## fior fior (Jan 13, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:
			
		

> I don't think he can absorb perfect Susano'o because absorbing version two isn't the same as absorbing a bijū-sized power and structure.


Why not, exactly? There is no evidence for this. Bijuu are hyped to have monstrous chakra capacity and Nagato sucked Bee dry, then going on to absorb all of his and Naruto's attacks. Madara himself compared his PS to the 'power of a Bijuu'. If Nagato has shown the capability to absorb such huge amounts of chakra, there is no reason to believe that he wouldn't be able to absorb PS.



> It's obvious he didn't absorb all of Bee's chakra because he was still entering version two and the Hachibi mode for literally hundreds of chapters after that.


That's an inconsistency on Kishi's part. It's pretty evident by now that chakra reserves can be replenished almost instantly. One panel, Kurama is 'out of chakra'; skip two pages and Naruto's back up and running without any assistance.

In any case, if this were true, Bee would have entered Bijuu mode after the initial attack. He did not, which obviously infers that he was out of chakra. Unless you can give me a logical explanation for why he would not fight at full strength against the opponent who just got god-level hype from Naruto, as he had done mere seconds ago.



> Also, the absorption process isn't fast enough to absorb Susano'o before it can completely stabilize. In the time it would take Nagato to absorb a leg, he'll already have the sword down on him.


Your argument holds no weight. Nagato absorbed B's chakra as he tanked a skyscraper-busting lariat. The V1-3 Susano'o sword hasn't shown any great damage capacity than that. Moreover, Nagato could simply absorb the sword just as he absorbed Naruto's chakra arms and mini-TBB and Rasengan attack. They came from behind, but Nagato's chakra bubble effortlessly drank them up.
Nagato eats Susanoo for breakfast. Anything less than PS is a walk in the park for him to deal with.



> It takes Madara maybe one or two seconds to use perfect Susano'o. Do you think Nagato can fly up in the air, shut down five paths and then use that jutsu in a couple of seconds? I'm extremely dubious.


One or two seconds is pushing it. I'd say more like ten. While he doesn't have to shut down any paths, I will admit that the time it takes for Nagato to fly up into the air and use CST is too long; Madara will have built PS by then.
However, let me give a perfectly logical alternative. Nagato most likely flew up into the air in order to aim his attack at the entire village (he needs to get further away to get a visual scope) and keep himself out of the way, as he was going to make the attack radiate out from the center. It makes sense that he could just use it in Madara's direction rather than use it as a radiating attack.


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## Gino (Jan 13, 2014)

I'm not understanding how Madara wins in here Rinnegan Madara Sure But EmS madara All the scenerio's here are not cutting it It took 3 strong as fuck peeps who can mess up more than half the Naruto verse to beat a  Kabuto controlled who had no idea what he was doing (kishi knows what's up) Nagato I'll say if anything there's severe underestimation going on here. Seriously what can he do Perfect Susanno? Give me  a Break.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 13, 2014)

Gino said:


> I'm not understanding how Madara wins in here Rinnegan Madara Sure But EmS madara All the scenerio's here are not cutting it It took 3 strong as fuck peeps who can mess up more than half the Naruto verse to beat a  Kabuto controlled who had no idea what he was doing (kishi knows what's up) Nagato I'll say if anything there's severe underestimation going on here. Seriously what can he do Perfect Susanno? Give me  a Break.



Kill him.........is that not enough?


----------



## Gino (Jan 13, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Kill him.........is that not enough?




Nothing EMS Madara has showed is doing shit to prime Nagato sorry brah.......


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 13, 2014)

The World said:


> This is a somewhat restricted Madara
> 
> and leagues apart? please
> 
> EMS Madara is only 1 tier above Prime Nagato



I actually put EMS Madara & Prime Nagato in the same tier 
Madaara with kyuubi is definitely a tier above though


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 13, 2014)

Gino said:


> Nothing EMS Madara has showed is doing shit to prime Nagato sorry brah.......



What exactly does 'prime Nagato' have that would allow him to survive a strike from a mountain-destroying slash?


----------



## RedChidori (Jan 13, 2014)

Madara could lose if he doesn't pull out Perfect Susano'o in time. Nagato is a powerhouse and has some insane firepower. He can nullify and deflect most of Madara's arsenal and Taijutsu would be suicide. The only way for Madara to win this is Perfect Susano'o, which he may not be able to use before he gets killed .


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 13, 2014)

Gino said:


> Nothing EMS Madara has showed is doing shit to prime Nagato sorry brah.......



When Nagato shows something that would allow him to counter 2 PS slashes one after another we can talk.

@RedChidori 

Genjutsu can work, especially when Nagato has a tendency to look straight at people.


----------



## Gino (Jan 13, 2014)

Like I said severe underestimation


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 13, 2014)

Are you willing to give any substance to these claims?


----------



## Klona (Jan 13, 2014)

Nagato BTs Madara out of PS and stabs him in the eye with a rod.


----------



## Gino (Jan 13, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Are you willing to give any substance to these claims?



Six paths of Nagato>EMS Madara pretty self explanatory


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 13, 2014)

Yeah I could see where this thread is going


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jan 13, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> When Nagato shows something that would allow him to counter 2 PS slashes one after another we can talk.
> 
> @RedChidori
> 
> Genjutsu can work, especially when Nagato has a tendency to look straight at people.


Like i said before he can just fly up in the air and the shockwave won't affect him if you can refer to my latter post you would see why and no shockwave = its looking SLOW for madara


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Like i said before he can just fly up in the air and the shockwave won't affect him if you can refer to my latter post you would see why and no shockwave = its looking SLOW for madara



Well, this is probably a complete waste of time because AS and Kom couldn't convince you in pages and pages of talking, but, if a shockwave can tear up miles and miles of ground as some sort of air blade, then it's going to rip Nagato into pieces, or cut him in half.  Not gently push him around just because he's in the air.  Even if it just pushed him, it would push him with all the impact it uses to decapitate mountains and form canyons, which means he'd be blasted backward until he hits the ground or a mountain, and then he'd be exploded through the mountain, along with the mountain and everything behind the mountain.  Or blasted miles down into the earth.  But maybe I misread your post, who knows.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jan 13, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Well, this is probably a complete waste of time because AS and Kom couldn't convince you in pages and pages of talking, but, if a shockwave can tear up miles and miles of ground as some sort of air blade, then it's going to rip Nagato into pieces, or cut him in half.  Not gently push him around just because he's in the air.  Even if it just pushed him, it would push him with all the impact it uses to decapitate mountains and form canyons, which means he'd be blasted backward until he hits the ground or a mountain, and then he'd be exploded through the mountain, along with the mountain and everything behind the mountain.  Or blasted miles down into the earth.  But maybe I misread your post, who knows.


You need to read my earlier post to actually understand because what your saying now is as if you never taken i science course before


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## Katana King (Jan 13, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> What exactly does 'prime Nagato' have that would allow him to survive a strike from a mountain-destroying slash?



What does EMS Madara have that would allow him to survive a city destroying CST or CT?

See what I did there.


----------



## Chad (Jan 13, 2014)

Madara stomps really hard.
-None of Nagato's arsenal can even put a dent on PS.
-Madara is much faster.
-Madara can casually output more DC than Nagato's max power ST.
-CT is only deadly in it's final stage. When early, the center orb is very vulnerable to attacks.

lol nbd


----------



## Sans (Jan 13, 2014)

Katana King said:


> What does EMS Madara have that would allow him to survive a city destroying CST or CT?
> 
> See what I did there.



Be not very smart?


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 13, 2014)

Katana King said:


> What does EMS Madara have that would allow him to survive a city destroying CST or CT?
> 
> See what I did there.



Yeah you have a point, PS is non-existent...............


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jan 13, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Yeah you have a point, PS is non-existent...............


Madara's PS can't pass Nagato's absorption barrier


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## Katana King (Jan 13, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Yeah you have a point, PS is non-existent...............



Just as Non Existent as Nagato's arsenal apparently to you.


----------



## Jagger (Jan 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Madara's PS can't pass Nagato's absorption barrier


Exactly why, good sir? Has Preta Path ever shown an incredible level of absorption rate capable of stopping the same attack that cut down several mountains with one swing despite Madara was just showing off his ultimate power to the Gokage?

It can pass. Besides, the shockwave isn't something created out of chakra. Sure, it's the product of the destruction caused by a technique based on chakra, but the impact itself can't be absorbed.


----------



## Katana King (Jan 13, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Exactly why, good sir? Has Preta Path ever shown an incredible level of absorption rate capable of stopping the same attack that cut down several mountains with one swing despite Madara was just showing off his ultimate power to the Gokage?
> 
> It can pass. Besides, the shockwave isn't something created out of chakra. Sure, it's the product of the destruction caused by a technique based on chakra, but the impact itself can't be absorbed.



Has Nagato ever shown a limit to absorbing chakra? I'm sure if I told you that Nagato could absorb V2 Bee's cloak before the chapter was released you probably would have said not a chance.

It has no limit....


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jan 13, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Exactly why, good sir? Has Preta Path ever shown an incredible level of absorption rate capable of stopping the same attack that cut down several mountains with one swing despite Madara was just showing off his ultimate power to the Gokage?
> 
> It can pass. Besides, the shockwave isn't something created out of chakra. Sure, it's the product of the destruction caused by a technique based on chakra, but the impact itself can't be absorbed.


I didn't mean the shockwave i meant his sword! and Man i explained why a shockwave would not affect him many times already so im not going to bother explaining again


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## tkpirate (Jan 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I didn't mean the shockwave i meant his sword! and Man i explained why a shockwave would not affect him many times already so im not going to bother explaining again



those shockwaves will pulverize nagato's body.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 13, 2014)

Katana King said:


> Just as Non Existent as Nagato's arsenal apparently to you.



Except Nagato's arsenal has hardly anything to counter PS slashes while PS can conveniently tank CST and decoy CT.


----------



## Chad (Jan 13, 2014)

> It has no limit....



That is no limits fallacy. Read here for more detail.

Also, Edo Madara has hinted the limits of preta path by saying that a sage powered FRS is already a lot to absorb. So the limit as to how much preta path can absorb at once should be around the power of sage FRS.


----------



## Ashi (Jan 13, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Nonsense
> Preta has no limit what so ever
> Madara meant sage FRS to be too much for susanoo that's why he used preta
> No where in manga has it ever been stated that preta has a limit
> Nagato absorbed an entire cloak instantly



Wank and speculation

OT: Madara Raises PS

There goes nagato


----------



## Ersa (Jan 13, 2014)

Nagato would be lucky to absorb the toenail of Perfect Susanoo before he gets erased from existence by Madara. It's a massive chakra construct that dwarfed his meteor.


----------



## Sans (Jan 13, 2014)

Jagger said:


> If you take Madara's statement, I really doubt Madara was specifically[ about the amount of chakra he absorbed.
> 
> In fact, the Path itself has never shown to struggle with anything. Moving on from that, though, I don't think he can absorb Preta Path.



Naruto's Rasenshuriken was shown to be forcing its way through the barrier before it was destroyed. Jiraiya successfully pinned down Preta with a large Katon. If you compare Kirabi's condition after being subjected to Preta and (admittedly multiple exposures) of Samehada, Samehada was more effective in draining him.



Jagger said:


> It's not really about the amount of chakra it can absorb, but the huge size of the structure that it needs to be absorbed. Nagato was able to suck away VS Bee's chakra because it was all concentrated in one single point instead of a huge radius.



It's not necessarily size that is the issue. Preta absorbed Jiraiya’s oil attack, which extended far beyond the barrier it erects. The bigger problem is that there is an established limit to the rate at which Preta can absorb chakra. If Jiraiya can pin down Preta with a katon, I'm fairly certain Perfect Susano'o is well outside its ability.



fior fior said:


> Why not, exactly? There is no evidence for this. Bijuu are hyped to have monstrous chakra capacity and Nagato sucked Bee dry, then going on to absorb all of his and Naruto's attacks. Madara himself compared his PS to the 'power of a Bijuu'. If Nagato has shown the capability to absorb such huge amounts of chakra, there is no reason to believe that he wouldn't be able to absorb PS.



Nagato did not suck Kirabi dry. 



fior fior said:


> That's an inconsistency on Kishi's part. It's pretty evident by now that chakra reserves can be replenished almost instantly. One panel, Kurama is 'out of chakra'; skip two pages and Naruto's back up and running without any assistance.
> 
> In any case, if this were true, Bee would have entered Bijuu mode after the initial attack. He did not, which obviously infers that he was out of chakra. Unless you can give me a logical explanation for why he would not fight at full strength against the opponent who just got god-level hype from Naruto, as he had done mere seconds ago.



That’s not an inconsistency on Kishi’s part, it’s him drawing battles in a way different from how you think they should proceed. Kirabi literally transformed into the full Hachibi moments later to destroy Chibaku Tensei and then proceeded to face both Obito and the Juubi using his strongest techniques.



fior fior said:


> Your argument holds no weight. Nagato absorbed B's chakra as he tanked a skyscraper-busting lariat. The V1-3 Susano'o sword hasn't shown any great damage capacity than that. Moreover, Nagato could simply absorb the sword just as he absorbed Naruto's chakra arms and mini-TBB and Rasengan attack. They came from behind, but Nagato's chakra bubble effortlessly drank them up.
> Nagato eats Susanoo for breakfast. Anything less than PS is a walk in the park for him to deal with.



Nagato didn't absorb all of Kirabi's chakra as already stated, he was only capable of disrupting his attack.

Naruto's Kyuubi shroud was intact after extended exposure to Preta, while he used his chakra arms to combat an attempted soul rip. Preta may have also absorbed an extra Rasengan, but I'm seeing nothing that even remotely suggests a scale similar to Perfect Susano'o.



fior fior said:


> One or two seconds is pushing it. I'd say more like ten. While he doesn't have to shut down any paths, I will admit that the time it takes for Nagato to fly up into the air and use CST is too long; Madara will have built PS by then.
> However, let me give a perfectly logical alternative. Nagato most likely flew up into the air in order to aim his attack at the entire village (he needs to get further away to get a visual scope) and keep himself out of the way, as he was going to make the attack radiate out from the center. It makes sense that he could just use it in Madara's direction rather than use it as a radiating attack.



And then Madara used Perfect Susano'o as it's enroute. Nagato's Deva powers are now on cool-down, leaving him to be quickly erased by Madara.

Madara and Hashirama were so obviously placed above any previously shown ninja. Can everyone in this thread please stop vastly overhyping Nagato.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 13, 2014)

Once PS comes out madara just start dual wielding his blades and it's over. Simple as that.

Preta path absorbing shockwaves not made from chakra is fanfiction.

Nagato absorbing PS(big ass mountain sized construct) before madara can swing his sword is fanfiction.

Nagato using multiple CST's in a row when a recharge time has been noted(not to mention the toll it takes on him) to defend from casual mountain range carving PS slashes is fanfiction.


----------



## Chad (Jan 13, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Nonsense
> Preta has no limit what so ever



Not limits fallacy.



> Madara meant sage FRS to be too much for susanoo that's why he used preta



Ok, then you should give proof that Madara was talking about Susanoo. 
(you can't because he didn't say such a thing)



> No where in manga has it ever been stated that preta has a limit



No where in manga has it ever been stated that preta doesn't have a limit.



> Nagato absorbed an entire cloak instantly



So does a v2 cloak have more chakra than the explosion of a senjutsu powered FRS? :33


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 14, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Wank and speculation
> 
> OT: Madara Raises PS
> 
> There goes nagato



Did I say that madara loses no i ddnt 
All I'm sayin is that preta has no limit and has never been told to have a limit 
It's an absorption technique where he himself uses no chakra,,, it's not like ST 
U say I'm a wanker but all I'm sayin is that preta has no limit


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 14, 2014)

Astral said:


> Not limits fallacy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since Madara resorted to using preta,,,, he knew that's the best way of countering
And it quickly absorbed sage FRS 
If u think that preta has a limit bcz the manga hasn't stated that it doesn't 
Then that's like sayin PS doesn't take chakra since the manga hasn't stated it


----------



## Sans (Jan 14, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Did I say that madara loses no i ddnt
> All I'm sayin is that preta has no limit and has never been told to have a limit
> It's an absorption technique where he himself uses no chakra,,, it's not like ST
> U say I'm a wanker but all I'm sayin is that preta has no limit



Pretty sure I've covered several limits to Preta several times over already.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 14, 2014)

Katana King said:


> What does EMS Madara have that would allow him to survive a city destroying CST or CT?
> 
> See what I did there.



Are you being sarcastic? Perfect Susano'o is perfectly viable.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 14, 2014)

Gino said:


> Or........ Or just maybe What I seen feat wise from EMS Madara is maybe not that impressive compared to a guy who was fucking handicapped and still raping villages spare me the bullshit please. Like I said anytime someone disagrees  that doesn't mean it's wanking or fanfiction or any other dumbshit to make yourself feel superior in a debate if anything It seems like some of you are disappointed this entire thread isn't a Madara wankfest see I can do it
> too.


madara's PS feats are far>nagato's rinnegan feats.if you can't understand it on your own you should have a look at calcs.all these feats are calced.and not giving any proof,yet claiming stuff is fanfiction.


----------



## Sans (Jan 14, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> May I know what those limits are??



Basically made the same post several times over in this thread.

I suggest you go back and read the posts that came before your own.


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 14, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> Basically made the same post several times over in this thread.
> 
> I suggest you go back and read the posts that came before your own.



Those posts are incorrect since they don't prove anything 
I dnt see wat convinces u that preta has a limit 
U can use it to absorb ninjutsu as many times as yu want


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Jan 14, 2014)

Madara uses PS, GG

Nagato uses CT - gets destroyed by PS casual swing and the resulting shockwave takes out Nagato as well

Nagato uses CST - gets blocked by PS, now Nagato is out of Deva path's power for a few minutes

Nagato tries to absorb using Preta - it can't absorb all of PS and it can't absorb a shockwave of the sword which wiped out 2 mountains that were easily miles away


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 14, 2014)

Katana King said:


> Has Nagato ever shown a limit to absorbing chakra? I'm sure if I told you that Nagato could absorb V2 Bee's cloak before the chapter was released you probably would have said not a chance.
> 
> It has no limit....



Hashirama's wood dragon couldn't eat the 9 tails form of bijuu mode Naruto, and it's explicitly as good or better at absorption than Madara's preta powers, since it nullified it.  For in order to nullify Madara's preta path, it must have an equal or greater draw.

So the thing that drains chakra as fast or faster that Preta couldn't didn't finish eating a gigantic chakra construct, even though it was wrapped around Naruto sucking away for quite awhile.

Preta may not have a limit on the total amount of chakra it can drain if held indefinitely, but it certainly has shown a limit on the amount of chakra it can drain in a set period of time.  Which means Madara's PS sword and PS won't just instantly vanish when it touches the bubble.


----------



## Sans (Jan 14, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Those posts are incorrect since they don't prove anything
> I dnt see wat convinces u that preta has a limit
> U can use it to absorb ninjutsu as many times as yu want



Why don't they prove anything? Because you say so?

What convinces me that Preta has a limit, is the fact that it has canonically struggled with various jutsu in different ways, because it hasn't demonstrated infallibility.

Regardless, even if had demonstrated infallibility in all its uses in the manga, that wouldn't make leaping to " ~ unlimited power ~" reasonable. If I break a dandelion with no effort, does that mean I can break apart a tank with my hands? It's the same logic, I haven't demonstrated any limit, so I must not have one, right?


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jan 14, 2014)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Madara uses PS, GG
> 
> Nagato uses CT - gets destroyed by PS casual swing and the resulting shockwave takes out Nagato as well
> 
> ...


Shockwave won't take out Nagato if you refer back to my earlier post you'd know why 
He won't need to CST when he can just BT him out the PS
Last time i checked Preta as no absorption limits and PS can't get pass the absorption barrier due to the fact that it slows down attacks when in contact with the barrier 
So no PS does not solo not at all


----------



## Katana King (Jan 14, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Are you being sarcastic? Perfect Susano'o is perfectly viable.



Very. Since CST or CT arent viable apparently.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hashirama's wood dragon couldn't eat the 9 tails form of bijuu mode Naruto, and it's explicitly as good or better at absorption than Madara's preta powers, *since it nullified it*.  For in order to nullify Madara's preta path, it must have an equal or greater draw.
> 
> So the thing that drains chakra as fast or faster that Preta couldn't didn't finish eating a gigantic chakra construct, even though it was wrapped around Naruto sucking away for quite awhile.
> 
> Preta may not have a limit on the total amount of chakra it can drain if held indefinitely, but it certainly has shown a limit on the amount of chakra it can drain in a set period of time.  Which means Madara's PS sword and PS won't just instantly vanish when it touches the bubble.



Would you mind showing me a scan of that?

Of course it wouldn't vanish instantly but neither would it be able to cause damage in the process of being absorbed.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jan 14, 2014)

Katana King said:


> Very. Since CST or CT arent viable apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Finally!! a person with some sense PS won't do damage while getting absorbed when something touches that absorption barrier it gets halted and absorbed in the process


----------



## Brooks (Jan 14, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Shockwave won't take out Nagato if you refer back to my earlier post you'd know why
> He won't need to CST when he can just BT him out the PS
> Last time i checked Preta as no absorption limits and PS can't get pass the absorption barrier due to the fact that it slows down attacks when in contact with the barrier
> So no PS does not solo not at all



How can Nagato BT Madara out of the Perfect Susanoo when the height difference makes it impossible for such thing to happen?

You know what.....how can Nagato BT anyone from their Susanoo for that matter? 

The Bansho Tenin was said to have the ability to pull and push things from the user's center and the center thing in this case is the Susanoo itself and not the user.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 14, 2014)

Katana King said:


> Very. Since CST or CT arent viable apparently..



No they a not, PS counters both of them.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 14, 2014)

Katana King said:


> Very. Since CST or CT arent viable apparently.



They're not; Perfect Susano'o already takes attacks of a much greater strength that even Chou Shinra Tensei, unscratched.

Nagato has absolutely nothing to breach Madara's defenses.


----------



## The Prodigy (Jan 14, 2014)

Pain is strong, yeah... however Madara is a completely different kind of beast, Rinnegan or not.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 14, 2014)

Gino said:


> So now we're at the point where people start making shit up?............I take my leave.



Are you referring to my post? If you're going to try making a rebuttal, actually specify who you're disparaging instead of doing so in a passive-aggressive manner.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jan 14, 2014)

Brooks said:


> How can Nagato BT Madara out of the Perfect Susanoo when the height difference makes it impossible for such thing to happen?
> 
> You know what.....how can Nagato BT anyone from their Susanoo for that matter?
> 
> The Bansho Tenin was said to have the ability to pull and push things from the user's center and the center thing in this case is the Susanoo itself and not the user.


What do you mean you just said the users center Nagato doesn't have PS so how is PS the center? When he said center he meant pull things towards him not the opponent


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 14, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> They're not; Perfect Susano'o already takes attacks of a much greater strength that even Chou Shinra Tensei, unscratched.
> 
> Nagato has absolutely nothing to breach Madara's defenses.



You are talking about a Chou Shinra Tensei form a God Realm who was far away from Nagato. That's weaker than a CST when God Realm is close to Nagato. Something which is much weaker than a CST from Nagato himself; it would be especially stronger if Nagato was using his own body while it *isn't* in a chakra deprived state.

Now the Rinnegan's full power cannot be used with an Edo Tensei body, so if you want to play it that way, then it would imply prime Nagato's CST would be something extremely powerful. 

So it is still possible for CST breach PS. Especially since it is silly to claim because of tanking the Bijuu Dama, PS can tank ST. ST and Bijuu Dama are two different jutsu which attack in very different ways. One is designed to explode and destroy and the other is a repulsion force which can vary in power. 

It might take a lot of power to breach PS, but it is certainly plausible to assume prime Nagato has the firepower to do so.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 14, 2014)

Katana King said:


> Very. Since CST or CT arent viable apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This wood dragon absorbs your chakra.  This way, the ninjutsu you're using to absorb chakra is rendered useless!

In other words, you're unable to move..  Or use any other absorbing absorbing ninjutsu!!


Now here's a scan of Naruto's giant Kyuubi form getting its chakra absorbed by the wood dragon, and Naruto still being able to physically damage and rip into it.

Here too, and it even says it's been absorbing.  Still absorbing.  And then Naruto can still bust out and use jutsu through the absorption.

So yeah, from that I gathered that not only did he not vanish, but, that Naruto was still able to cause damage with a chakra construct while being sapped by something as good or better at absorption than Preta Path's power.

Anyway, thank you for asking nicely.  I never mind grabbing scans for genuinely interested people.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jan 14, 2014)

How do you know the wood dragon is better than Preta? please explain


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You are talking about a Chou Shinra Tensei form a God Realm who was far away from Nagato. That's weaker than a CST when God Realm is close to Nagato. Something which is much weaker than a CST from Nagato himself; it would be especially stronger if Nagato was using his own body while it *isn't* in a chakra deprived state.



Good point, but - 



> Now the Rinnegan's full power cannot be used with an Edo Tensei body, so if you want to play it that way, then it would imply prime Nagato's CST would be something extremely powerful.



But above the level of a Tailed Beast Bomb? OBD calcs have Chou Shinra Tensei at least twenty times weaker in terms of sheer yield; I'm not sure that's a gap that even Prime Nagato can cross, especially when you take into consideration that Perfect Susano'o shrugged one off scratchless from the likes of Kurama (the aforementioned yield above is derived from regular blasts of Tailed Beasts 2-7).



> So it is still possible for CST breach PS. Especially since it is silly to claim because of tanking the Bijuu Dama, PS can tank ST. ST and Bijuu Dama are two different jutsu which attack in very different ways. One is designed to explode and destroy and the other is a repulsion force which can vary in power.



Shinra Tensei is brute force. Tailed Beast Bombs at least involve heat given they vaporize the mountains they hit.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 14, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> But above the level of a Tailed Beast Bomb? OBD calcs have Chou Shinra Tensei at least twenty times weaker in terms of sheer yield; I'm not sure that's a gap that even Prime Nagato can cross, especially when you take into consideration that Perfect Susano'o shrugged one off scratchless from the likes of Kurama (the aforementioned yield above is derived from regular blasts of Tailed Beasts 2-7).



OBD calcs... that's probably why we'll differ in stance. I tend to believe most of their calculations are purely subjective and speculative, so I - along with a few others here, I believe - will disregard them.



> > Shinra Tensei is brute force. Tailed Beast Bombs at least involve heat given they vaporize the mountains they hit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jan 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> OBD calcs... that's probably why we'll differ in stance. I tend to believe most of their calculations are purely subjective and speculative, so I - along with a few others here, I believe - will disregard them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> OBD calcs... that's probably why we'll differ in stance. I tend to believe most of their calculations are purely subjective and speculative, so I - along with a few others here, I believe - will disregard them.



What's with the bright blue? 

And I certainly don't disregard them; they're pretty damn useful for comparing attacks with similar methods of destruction; both Chou Shinra Tensei and Tailed Beast Bombs yielded a measurable crater. Then, it's only a matter of comparing radii and depth of said craters - I don't see anything remotely subjective or speculative about that.

But if you'd like, elaborate more on why this specific case of calculations doesn't work.



> Shinra Tensei is a repulsion force which varies in power, depending on how much chakra the user puts in the jutsu.
> Shinra Tensei has the potential to be a lot more concentrated* than the Bijuu-Dama, so there is that to consider.



Shinra Tensei is concentrated now? Perfect Susano'o would be about only a kilometer or so tall; Chou Shinra Tensei spans at least a few given what it did to Konoha.

So most of the attack's energy would be as widespread as your typical Tailed Beast Bomb. :oh


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 14, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> How do you know the wood dragon is better than Preta? please explain



Preta path sucks in energy.

Wood dragon sucks in energy.

So if they get into a sucking war, the better sucker will win, and the loser won't be able to absorb jutsu.  Just like when you play tug of war, the weaker sides gets pulled towards the stronger side.

So since Madara couldn't absorb any jutsu with Preta because the dragon was absorbing his chakra, that means Preta was either stalemated by the dragon, or lost to the dragon in absorption.  

Did I explain it well enough?

If you click on the underlined words, and read the scans I linked, they explain how the wood dragon is beating Madara's preta absorption as well.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 14, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> How do you know the wood dragon is better than Preta? please explain



Pirate made a very good post explaining it right above you with links and everything. Maybe you should read that?


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 14, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Preta path sucks in energy.
> 
> Wood dragon sucks in energy.
> 
> ...


Doesn't the dragon need to make contact with you first? If thats the case then In order to do so he's going to get absorbed by the chakra barrier because preta absorbs all types of ninjutsu correct?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 14, 2014)

If you look at the scan, the dragon is touching Madara, and not getting absorbed.





It's pretty clear.  The wood dragon is just better at absorbing than Preta.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 14, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> And I certainly don't disregard them; they're pretty damn useful for comparing attacks with similar methods of destruction; both Chou Shinra Tensei and Tailed Beast Bombs yielded a measurable crater. Then, it's only a matter of comparing radii and depth of said craters - I don't see anything remotely subjective or speculative about that.



Except they've got no actual way of readily saying they made accurate calculations. 
To really compare jutsu it is better to use their feats and qualities, not subjective calculations. Calculations which are subjective because there is no objective methodology used to carry out the calculations.

Without resorting to OBD calcs you could see a Bijuu Dama could do more damage than what a far away God Realm did to Konoha. 
That however is not the greatest if you're comparing it to another Shinra Tensei (in this case from Nagato himself) which is most likely going to be a directional one as opposed to an omnidirectional one (different quality to what the OBD attempts to calculate).



> Shinra Tensei is concentrated now? Perfect Susano'o would be about only a kilometer or so tall; Chou Shinra Tensei spans at least a few given what it did to Konoha.
> 
> So most of the attack's energy would be as widespread as your typical Tailed Beast Bomb. :oh



Directional Shinra Tensei would be concentrated on a particular spot, as suggested when Madara used his Shinra Tensei to get out of his Edo Tensei coffin. Or when Naruto looked like he got hit in the face; much like how it looked like Gamahiro got hit in the face and Bunta+Ken got hit in their mid section [link].

It like an inverted Banshou Tenin which can target a spot on the target and pull -- in ST's case its push. Same power, so not really a stretch to assume this, especially with the feats to back the notion up.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> This wood dragon absorbs your chakra.  This way, the ninjutsu you're using to absorb chakra is rendered useless!
> 
> In other words, you're unable to move..  Or use any other absorbing absorbing ninjutsu!!
> 
> ...



You're using one wood dragon jutsu to support the case for a completely different wood dragon jutsu. One works like Preta Path (the one used on Madara) and other specifically works on Bijuu (used on Kurama, twice).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 14, 2014)

*@Munboy*

In my opinion, wood dragons just absorb chakra.  

Just like Preta absorbs chakra.  There isn't a special preta for absorbing jin chakra, another for sage chakra, and another for regular chakra.  It's just preta, and it just absorbs.

If anything I'd say the one used on Madara is way tinier, and would therefore absorb less than the giant one with more surface area, but I don't really care.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Shinra Tensei is a repulsion force which varies in power, depending on how much chakra the user puts in the jutsu.
> Shinra Tensei has the potential to be a lot more concentrated* than the Bijuu-Dama, so there is that to consider.
> 
> *The directional Shinra Tensei variant.



Just because CST has a larger AoE does not make it more potent then a Bijudama. A Bijudama has more constructive and concentrated release of energy that is meant to destroy anything within its blast Radius. CST does not work like that, it does not have that level of energy concentration, gusts of wind cannot be made into such violent releases of energy, its just not naturally possible, proof? It was able to flatten a house but did not have enough release energy to completely destroy the rubble where as a Bijudama would eradicate said rubble out of existence. The two comparisons are comparable to a big TNT explosion and a Hurricane, though the Hurricane has a lot more energy it spreads out that energy for its large AoE and would not be able to fully destroy a single wooden house while a TNT bomb has less but more concentrated power........the wooden house would be gone. Furthermore, Madara's PS tanked 4 Jubidamas for Madara (though PS itself was mainly destroyed): 



Here we see on the bottom that Madara's Edo cracks on in such formation, the same formation as in the following:



Usually when an Edo regenerates his Edo cracks change as shown here:


 After meteor hit:


His chin crack and his forehead crack changed/appeared, but you can make an arguement saying that Kishi is not always consistent with mere cracks so I will supply more evidence that he tanked those 4:



Here we also see that his has small bruises, you have to remember that if Edos get substantially damaged they regenerate. Once they regenerate any previous damage/strain on the body dissapears as they return to there formal form. So once regenerated, any bruise, dirt stain or strain on the body is gone. If he had indeed been injured to the point of regeneration those marks would have not been there. Furthermore as an add on for those people that I know will deny all this no matter what, they regenerated way to quickly if they indeed had to regenerate, not only did they regenerate but Madara had a formational Susanoo glob (that usually turns to that state once a form of Susanoois destroyed BTW), while it took Tobirama several whole battle sequences to regenerate.

Now if you (not specifically directed at you Dracule O'Brien) think that CST has a larger output damage then 4 Jubidamas I simply do not know what to say.............

Conclusion: Madara has ways to kill Nagato, while Nagato, in front of PS has virtually nothing in his arsenal that can destroy it, even his strongest attack(CST) cannot as explained above. Please stop with this Nagato beats Madara with CST nonsense (not directed specifically at you O'Brien) the winner here is clear cut.

Reactions: Like 1


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 14, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If you look at the scan, the dragon is touching Madara, and not getting absorbed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea obviously its touching Madara but as you can see Madara did not have the absorption barrier up


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 14, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yea obviously its touching Madara but as you can see Madara did not have the absorption barrier up



Because the wood dragon rendered it useless.

It negated it.

It stopped it.

Hashirama says it right there.  It's not up and running because the wood dragon broke it by absorbing better.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 14, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Because the wood dragon rendered it useless.
> 
> It negated it.
> 
> ...


He didn't have it up to begin with


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## tkpirate (Jan 14, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> He didn't have it up to begin with



prove it.i see people are still making fan fictions.


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## tkpirate (Jan 15, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Without resorting to OBD calcs you could see a Bijuu Dama could do more damage than what a far away God Realm did to Konoha.
> That however is not the greatest if you're comparing it to another Shinra Tensei (in this case from Nagato himself) which is most likely going to be a directional one as opposed to an omnidirectional one (different quality to what the OBD attempts to calculate).
> six tailed naruto tanked a directional ST from deva very easily.how much stronger do you think a directional ST from nagato would be ?


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## Sans (Jan 15, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> He didn't have it up to begin with



Hashirama seemed to make a big deal about nullifying Preta.


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## LostSelf (Jan 15, 2014)

The dragon nullifying Preta could've been because Madara wasn't using it before the dragon started sucking Madara's chakra first.

It doesn't need to be because it's better however. It couldn't drain Madara completely, while Madara defeated Hashirama instantly with it, and he has more chakra than BM Naruto. 

So we know who's faster.


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## tkpirate (Jan 15, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> The dragon nullifying Preta could've been because Madara wasn't using it before the dragon started sucking Madara's chakra first.
> 
> It doesn't need to be because it's better however. It couldn't drain Madara completely, while Madara defeated Hashirama instantly with it, and he has more chakra than BM Naruto.
> 
> So we know who's faster.



madara defeated Hashirama by those black rods.the same way he defeated tobirama.


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## LostSelf (Jan 15, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> madara defeated Hashirama by those black rods.the same way he defeated tobirama.



He stole fast enough to take all his natural energy with one touch and 

Spoiler alert:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama's words kind of implies that he doesn't have much chakra left therefore Preta path probably took a huge amount of chakra out of him outside of only senjutsu.




However i agree that Madara defeated Hashi with the black rods, i am talking about how fast preta path worked here.


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## tkpirate (Jan 15, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> He stole fast enough to take all his natural energy with one touch and
> 
> Spoiler alert:
> 
> ...



yes madara took Hashirama's senjutsu chakra.didn't Orochimaru took senjutsu chakra from kabuto same way ?and madara didn't had rinnegan,how would he use preta?i think he was able to take that senjutsu chakra because of those black rods,and Hashirama's DNA in his body.


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## Ghost (Jan 15, 2014)

I think this would be an entertaining fight. Madara would have to be serious against Nagato but he never would be in the danger of losing. 

PS > Nagato's trump cards (CST, CT). Chou Shinra Tensei is tanked with Susano'o and Chibaku Tensei gets butchered.

Madara's physical stats are also superior to Nagato's. Well, Asura gives Nagato the strength and durability advantage, but Madara easily dodges Nagato in CQC and pummels Asura with Susano'o.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> six tailed naruto tanked a directional ST from deva very easily.how much stronger do you think a directional ST from nagato would be ?



He tanked a ST from a Deva that's far away from Nagato. We've seen the difference in ST quality when God Realm is closer to Nagato. 
Also ST can vary in power.



Destiny Monarch said:


> Usually when an Edo regenerates his Edo cracks change as shown here:
> 
> 
> After meteor hit:
> ...



You're talking about a Juubi-Dama which PS *couldn't* tank. 
When I said PS tanked a Bijuu-Dama, I referenced Kurama's.



> Conclusion: Madara has ways to kill Nagato, while Nagato, in front of PS has virtually nothing in his arsenal that can destroy it, even his strongest attack(CST) cannot as explained above. Please stop with this Nagato beats Madara with CST nonsense (not directed specifically at you O'Brien) the winner here is clear cut.



What has EMS Madara got other than PS to kill Nagato?

All the arguments saying CST can't do much ignore that they use a CST from a God Realm who was far away from Nagato. The output will be immensely greater from Nagato himself; more so as he's not in a chakra deprived state ITT.

The only case for Perfect Susanoo is the shock waves it can generate with its slashes. The jutsu itself, however is absorbent like the rest of Madara's Ninjutsu. So the entire PS stance relies on Madara keeping Nagato away from PS so he can spam slashes.

Of course, the reason the Gokage couldn't do much after the slash was obviously because they were low on chakra. Nagato isn't low on chakra reserves _and_ has a Senju body. So a shock wave isn't going to just keep him down.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 15, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> He didn't have it up to begin with



No, I don't think you're comprehending. He didn't have it up because the wood dragon negated it, as Hashirama said. If it was just a matter of Madara not activating it, Hashirama would have never specifically mentioned his jutsu nullifying Madara's.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 15, 2014)

Most likely the Mokuryu and Preta Path were equal in the rate of Chakra absorption. But because the Mokuryu doesn't JUST absorb, and it constricts as well, Madara loses that battle.


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## KyuubiFan (Jan 15, 2014)

I can't belive this argument spanned on over 12 pages.

Nagato is one of the very few who can stand up against EMS Madara, but he'd lose. Impressive as his display was against his enemies, particularly against KCM Idioto and Bee and adding the fact he was probably pretty nerfed due to Edo Tensei's imperfection is still not enough to win here.

Once Perfect Susano'o goes up - and it will, there's nothing Nagato can do to prevent that - it's over for Nagato. It can be argued whether a directed CST could damage PS or not the fact remains Nagato will be on cooldown for a while after that, and that time is more than enough for Madara to FINISH HIM! with a PS slash, even if he has to reform it.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 15, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> prove it.i see people are still making fan fictions.


Well to be straight foward did u see the preta absorption barrier? or did i just miss it because last time i checked he didn't put it up the dragon just came at him


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 15, 2014)

KyuubiFan said:


> I can't belive this argument spanned on over 12 pages.
> 
> Nagato is one of the very few who can stand up against EMS Madara, but he'd lose. Impressive as his display was against his enemies, particularly against KCM Idioto and Bee and adding the fact he was probably pretty nerfed due to Edo Tensei's imperfection is still not enough to win here.
> 
> Once Perfect Susano'o goes up - and it will, there's nothing Nagato can do to prevent that - it's over for Nagato. It can be argued whether a directed CST could damage PS or not the fact remains Nagato will be on cooldown for a while after that, and that time is more than enough for Madara to FINISH HIM! with a PS slash, even if he has to reform it.


Reforming PS is not that quick as your making it out to be Nagato should have some time for his interval


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 15, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Well to be straight foward did u see the preta absorption barrier? or did i just miss it because last time i checked he didn't put it up the dragon just came at him



No, I don't think you're comprehending. He didn't have it up because the wood dragon negated it, as Hashirama said. If it was just a matter of Madara not activating it, Hashirama would have never specifically mentioned his jutsu nullifying Madara's.


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## Jagger (Jan 15, 2014)

As for the Wooden Dragon vs Preta Path debate, I believe their chakra absorption rate is the same. 

They just negated each other or the Dragon started to absorb first.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2014)

Hashirama just said that the dragon would stop Madara from absorbing jutsu. That doesn't necessarily mean it is superior to the Preta Path, it just means something happened during that off-panel time that we don't know about. For instance maybe the dragon got Madara before he could use the Preta Path.


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## Jagger (Jan 15, 2014)

Is that directed to me or in general?


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 15, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> No, I don't think you're comprehending. He didn't have it up because the wood dragon negated it, as Hashirama said. If it was just a matter of Madara not activating it, Hashirama would have never specifically mentioned his jutsu nullifying Madara's.


Well i didn't show that he had the absorption barrier up? so hashi could have meant that he won't be able to use preta while constricted by it


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 15, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He tanked a ST from a Deva that's far away from Nagato. We've seen the difference in ST quality when God Realm is closer to Nagato.
> Also ST can vary in power.



ST can clearly vary in power, some are more powerful then others, this is very clear. 





> You're talking about a Juubi-Dama which PS *couldn't* tank.
> When I said PS tanked a Bijuu-Dama, I referenced Kurama's.



PS *tanked * the 4 Jubidama, it served its purpose in tanking the 4 Jubidama for Madara even if it got destroyed in the process, Madara had no need to regenerate. 




> What has EMS Madara got other than PS to kill Nagato?



That's all he needs, without intel I can make a counter arguement for him beating Nagato without PS. 



> All the arguments saying CST can't do much ignore that they use a CST from a God Realm who was far away from Nagato. The output will be immensely greater from Nagato himself; more so as he's not in a chakra deprived state ITT.



This is speculation, you can't assume how much larger it gets when we do not have a single thing to compare. Everything Nagato had shown was nothing that any of the paths did not. In fact, if anything, his human path was worse, at least based on feats. 



> The only case for Perfect Susanoo is the shock waves it can generate with its slashes. The jutsu itself, however is absorbent like the rest of Madara's Ninjutsu. So the entire PS stance relies on Madara keeping Nagato away from PS so he can spam slashes.



PS would take a very long time to absorb, and its not like Madara will idly wait for him to do so. He can create shock waves even if Nagato is close, Nagato won't ansorb PS instantly. 



> Of course, the reason the Gokage couldn't do much after the slash was obviously because they were low on chakra. Nagato isn't low on chakra reserves _and_ has a Senju body. So a shock wave isn't going to just keep him down.



Really? Then what could have they possibly done even if they had full chakra other then Ōnoki lightning Ay and dodging.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Is that directed to me or in general?



In general.



Destiny Monarch said:


> ST can clearly vary in power, some are more powerful then others, this is very clear.



Naruto made the important distinction between Rinnegan powers used from Nagato's body and Pain's body; Nagato showed he can't use the Rinnegan to such a high standard if a body is too far from him.

That is an important detail to note as all (C)ST arguments mostly hinge on the standard Pain was capable of.



> PS *tanked * the 4 Jubidama, it served its purpose in tanking the 4 Jubidama for Madara even if it got destroyed in the process, Madara had no need to regenerate.



Tanking would mean it endured the hit and didn't let Madara get destroyed. The opposite happened, it got destroyed along with Hashirama and Madara. Hence Madara's Edo Tensei looked like it was regenerating. Compare the Edo Tensei pattern here to the other times Madara took attacks that destroyed or partially destroyed him.




> That's all he needs, without intel I can make a counter arguement for him beating Nagato without PS.



I'm unsure how seeing as every EMS Madara vs prime Nagato thread consistently tends to use PS to support the former, nothing more.



> This is speculation, you can't assume how much larger it gets when we do not have a single thing to compare. Everything Nagato had shown was nothing that any of the paths did not. In fact, if anything, his human path was worse, at least based on feats.



We have statements and feats to back up the speculation. Assuming his CST would be at the weakest standard he could generate is worse speculation as it ignores evidence. What evidence? Well the fact that God Realm, among other Paths, aren't at their most powerful when they're far from Nagato _and_ the fact that the jutsu's output is stronger when used Nagato himself. There's also the fact that ITT he isn't as chakra deprived, suggesting he could put more power into his CST.



> PS would take a very long time to absorb, and its not like Madara will idly wait for him to do so. He can create shock waves even if Nagato is close, Nagato won't ansorb PS instantly.



If chakra shrouds, Susanoo and Jinton (all massive chakra constructs) are absorbed quickly, then PS will join the club too. The "slow absorption" theory died when the Rinnegan showed its stuff in the war arc. There's a reason the Gokage and Jiraiya chose to _continuously_ use chakra attacks to keep the power busy rather than take advantage of alleged slow absorption.



> Really? Then what could have they possibly done even if they had full chakra other then Ōnoki lightning Ay and dodging.



More chakra means more energy, for starters they'd try to at least move rather than get blown away. Someone whose not tired and has a Senju body (Nagato), whose capable of moving under pressure (while is legs are on fire; dodging V2 Bee as a cripple is something to note too) wouldn't really be stopped by a shock wave. 

It all points down to Madara trying to keep Nagato away from PS and hoping he can land a slash on him. Nagato would be trying to get to PS to absorb it so he could try to take Madara again. 

Madara could get lucky and hit Nagato when during a cool down assuming the latter couldn't dodge with his speed aided by God Realm flight. Or Nagato could get lucky and absorb PS and make things CQC, where his powers grant him an advantage.

If Nagato does absorb PS, he could always do the CST game again given the quantity of chakra PS has... maybe even more powerful if you believe PS>CST in chakra quantity.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 15, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto made the important distinction between Rinnegan powers used from Nagato's body and Pain's body; Nagato showed he can't use the Rinnegan to such a high standard if a body is too far from him.



Did we see the distinction, I fail to see how we can somehow incorporate such hype into a Vs battle. It really means nothing here if we do not have an estimate on exactly how much stronger he is, it could have been by the most minuscule margin we simply do not know.  Don't see people saying Hiruzen wins a battle because it was said he knew all Konoha's Jutsu and therefore can use Jutsu A and Jutsu B despite not having the feats to support this. 




> Tanking would mean it endured the hit and didn't let Madara get destroyed. The opposite happened, it got destroyed along with Hashirama and Madara. Hence Madara's Edo Tensei looked like it was regenerating. Compare the Edo Tensei pattern here to the other times Madara took attacks that destroyed or partially destroyed him.



But it did not let Madara get destroyed, I have already explained why. That did not look like he was regenerating, that looked like he got bruised in some way. You have to remember, if an Edo gets damaged to the point having to regenerate, it regenerates to its original Edo state, this means that there would be none of those bruise marks on his face, as those where not there when he was originally resurrected.  





> I'm unsure how seeing as every EMS Madara vs prime Nagato thread consistently tends to use PS to support the former, nothing more.



Make an argument on how Nagato wins without using CST or CT and I will give, or at least try to give you a way that Madara wins without using PS. If the OP restricts CST, CT and PS then we can form this into a much more debatable scenario.





> We have statements and feats to back up the speculation. Assuming his CST would be at the weakest standard he could generate is worse speculation as it ignores evidence. What evidence? Well the fact that God Realm, among other Paths, aren't at their most powerful when they're far from Nagato _and_ the fact that the jutsu's output is stronger when used Nagato himself. There's also the fact that ITT he isn't as chakra deprived, suggesting he could put more power into his CST.



Statements don't cut it when it comes to VS threads, this is common practice in every forum, otherwise people like Hanzo, and Hiruzen would be dominating the VS threads in a non-Trollish manner. I'm not denying that Nagato's Jutsu are stronger then the Peins, I'm simply saying that we do not know HOW much stronger and therefore cannot make a case for him winning because of this. We have to use the feats that are given to use and if the Manga supports hype in some way we can use said statements, but in Nagatos case there was not enough details, the statement was simply way to vague to be of any use here. 




> If chakra shrouds, Susanoo and Jinton (all massive chakra constructs) are absorbed quickly, then PS will join the club too. The "slow absorption" theory died when the Rinnegan showed its stuff in the war arc. There's a reason the Gokage and Jiraiya chose to _continuously_ use chakra attacks to keep the power busy rather than take advantage of alleged slow absorption.



None of those equate to anything near the level of PS. Jinton is simply complicated to deconstruct, there is nothing harder about absorbing it then absorbing a high level elemental Jutsu. They her had the chance to take advantage of its slow absorption, they had a nasty combo going on at one point that denied anything the paths could have done. 




> More chakra means more energy, for starters they'd try to at least move rather than get blown away. Someone whose not tired and has a Senju body (Nagato), whose capable of moving under pressure (while is legs are on fire; dodging V2 Bee as a cripple is something to note too) wouldn't really be stopped by a shock wave.



Mei, Tsunade, Gaara and Ōnoki are too slow to dodge them even at full health. Nagato does NOT have a Senju body, I have seen this misconception a lot where people state that Uzamaki's like Naruto have Senju DNA when that's not in the slightest way true, Uzamaki's and Senju's where friends and similar in some ways but do not have the exact same blooda as Senju.. Last time I checked Nagato never dodged Bee V2, he got hit by it and started absorbing the chakra. Then once Base Bee tried to attack from his blind spot Nagato reacted because he had that thing looking behind him. The walking with brined legs is will power, nothing to do with speed.  



> It all points down to Madara trying to keep Nagato away from PS and hoping he can land a slash on him. Nagato would be trying to get to PS to absorb it so he could try to take Madara again.



Again, Nagato won't absorb PS fast, it would take time and PS can swing its sword fairly fast. 



> Madara could get lucky and hit Nagato when during a cool down assuming the latter couldn't dodge with his speed aided by God Realm flight. Or Nagato could get lucky and absorb PS and make things CQC, where his powers grant him an advantage.



No, Nagato won't be dodging a PS slash, not sufficient speed feats to even assume he can.



> If Nagato does absorb PS, he could always do the CST game again given the quantity of chakra PS has... maybe even more powerful if you believe PS>CST in chakra quantity.



But he won't so all this is irrelevant.


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## tkpirate (Jan 15, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He tanked a ST from a Deva that's far away from Nagato. We've seen the difference in ST quality when God Realm is closer to Nagato.
> Also ST can vary in power
> 
> yes i know that,but do you have a feat for strongest ST ?how 6 tailed naruto overpowered that ST,those ST look very weak.


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## tkpirate (Jan 15, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Well to be straight foward did u see the preta absorption barrier? or did i just miss it because last time i checked he didn't put it up the dragon just came at him



we didn't see the entire fight how would we see that ?do you think that madara is a retard,why wouldn't he do that ?but what we are talking here isn't really relevant to this fight,because madara's shockwaves will kill nagato anyway.also madara has a good speed advantage.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 15, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> we didn't see the entire fight how would we see that ?do you think that madara is a retard,why wouldn't he do that ?but what we are talking here isn't really relevant to this fight,because madara's shockwaves will kill nagato anyway.also madara has a good speed advantage.


I told you countless times reasons why his shockwaves won't affect Nagato!


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## tkpirate (Jan 15, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I told you countless times reasons why his shockwaves won't affect Nagato!



but you're wrong,madara PS swing and mihawks air slash are almost same.if those shockwaves go through nagato's body his body will be pulverized,dosen't matter if he is in the air or on ground.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jan 16, 2014)

What affect will a CT have on PS?


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## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2014)

PrazzyP said:


> What affect will a CT have on PS?



basically nothing.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 16, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> but you're wrong,madara PS swing and mihawks air slash are almost same.if those shockwaves go through nagato's body his body will be pulverized,dosen't matter if he is in the air or on ground.


Mihawks came out as energy not a shockwave and i never compared mihawks shockwaves and if you take a science course you'd know that shockwaves won't affect you in air


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## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Mihawks came out as energy not a shockwave and i never compared mihawks shockwaves and if you take a science course you'd know that shockwaves won't affect you in air



no i'm very sure you need take a science course,because the shockwaves that can pulverize huge rocks,will pulverize a human.and you didn't provide any proof to support your claim.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 16, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> no i'm very sure you need take a science course,because the shockwaves that can pulverize huge rocks,will pulverize a human.and you didn't provide any proof to support your claim.


What are you talking about i gave a paragraph of why it won't work and if you don't take that either your failing science or your just ignorant how will a shockwave do damage with a medium but no endpoint?


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## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> What are you talking about i gave a paragraph of why it won't work and if you don't take that either your failing science or your just ignorant how will a shockwave do damage with a medium but no endpoint?



this isn't a shockwave in real life.in fiction shockwaves do destroy flying things.as i said if the shockwaves go through nagato's body,his body will be pulverized or it will slam nagato in to the ground with great power.and also madara has two PS swards,so even if you were right,nagato won't be able to stay in the air for long and will get hit by shockwaves when he is in the ground.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 16, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> this isn't a shockwave in real life.in fiction shockwaves do destroy flying things.as i said if the shockwaves go through nagato's body,his body will be pulverized or it will slam nagato in to the ground with great power.and also madara has two PS swards,so even if you were right,nagato won't be able to stay in the air for long and will get hit by shockwaves when he is in the ground.



Have you not realized its comepletly pointless to continue arguing with him? Just stop and move on.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 17, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Have you not realized its comepletly pointless to continue arguing with him? Just stop and move on.


You not comprehending basic knowledge like that is only showing your stupidity and ignorance so please do some studying first


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 17, 2014)

Keep away from personal attacks, please.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 17, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> You not comprehending basic knowledge like that is only showing your stupidity and ignorance so please do some studying first



I won't bother wasting my time with you.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 17, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Keep away from personal attacks, please.


my bad lol!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Did we see the distinction, I fail to see how we can somehow incorporate such hype into a Vs battle. It really means nothing here if we do not have an estimate on exactly how much stronger he is, it could have been by the most minuscule margin we simply do not know.  Don't see people saying Hiruzen wins a battle because it was said he knew all Konoha's Jutsu and therefore can use Jutsu A and Jutsu B despite not having the feats to support this.



Actually it means a lot. Unless the OP limits Nagato's jutsu output to the level of Pain's, then we're free to speculate how strong it could be. We have more than enough to infer this, for instance Nagato had a village destroying ST when all his chakra was channeled into a God Realm far away from himself.

That is very different to the Hiruzen hype which we have nothing to support. However the lack of support doesn't mean that it is something we should ignore.



> But it did not let Madara get destroyed, I have already explained why. That did not look like he was regenerating, that looked like he got bruised in some way. You have to remember, if an Edo gets damaged to the point having to regenerate, it regenerates to its original Edo state, this means that there would be none of those bruise marks on his face, as those where not there when he was originally resurrected.



You say it didn't let Madara get destroyed, yet Madara's ET looks like it was recovering after being destroyed. Hashirama was pretty convinced the Bijuu-Dama would destroy himself and Madara. The latter acknowledged that but disregarded it saying it was meaningless as they were ET shinobi. In other words notice Madara did not think PS would prevent him from being destroyed as you think it did.

We've seen patterns of ET shinobi when they've recovered from being destroyed, it pretty much indicated that Madara was destroyed. In fact, the man himself acknowledged that the four Juubi-Dama would destroy him.




> Make an argument on how Nagato wins without using CST or CT and I will give, or at least try to give you a way that Madara wins without using PS. If the OP restricts CST, CT and PS then we can form this into a much more debatable scenario.



Not sure about CT, but CST is the natural argument to be brought up in response to PS. However PS with EMS Madara always enters the picture, as such CST will enter the picture too.

I agree with you on the restriction on CST/PS/CT point.



> Statements don't cut it when it comes to VS threads, this is common practice in every forum, otherwise people like Hanzo, and Hiruzen would be dominating the VS threads in a non-Trollish manner. I'm not denying that Nagato's Jutsu are stronger then the Peins, I'm simply saying that we do not know HOW much stronger and therefore cannot make a case for him winning because of this. We have to use the feats that are given to use and if the Manga supports hype in some way we can use said statements, but in Nagatos case there was not enough details, the statement was simply way to vague to be of any use here.



Depending on how you use them, they do cut it. If you hinge on them alone, then your case is shaky. If you're using them to support something shown in the manga, it works more perfectly than a feats only argument. For instance we have a statement of Nagato's jutsu output being stronger, we've seen two examples of Pain's jutsu output being superior when he's either closer to Nagato or has Nagato's chakra in one body... Naruto gave us a statement which was logical: Nagato's jutsu output is greater than Pain's when he's using his own body. It would make sense given that the extra chakra used on functioning Pain is put into the Rinnegan jutsu. 

Furthermore saying the Pain jutsu are stronger when Nagato uses them is anything but vague. I would go as far as to say that it is pretty straightforward.



> None of those equate to anything near the level of PS. Jinton is simply complicated to deconstruct, there is nothing harder about absorbing it then absorbing a high level elemental Jutsu. They her had the chance to take advantage of its slow absorption, they had a nasty combo going on at one point that denied anything the paths could have done.



That assumes we know the quantity of chakra in PS. We've seen Madara absorb Susanoo and Jinton at the same time, at a large speed. We've seen Nagato absorb a chakra arm and Rasengan at the same time. We've even seen Obito absorb Kakashi's chakra shroud the moment he touched Kakashi. 
In other words we've seen consistently that chakra quantity is meaningless to the Preta Path, it will absorb quickly regardless. Other absorption techniques, like the one used by Samehada fit the criterion you're talking about.

Slow absorption has _never_ been an issue with the Preta Path. There's a reason that many, including the Shinobi Alliance's best strategist never commented on it.



> Mei, Tsunade, Gaara and Ōnoki are too slow to dodge them even at full health. Nagato does NOT have a Senju body, I have seen this misconception a lot where people state that Uzamaki's like Naruto have Senju DNA when that's not in the slightest way true, Uzamaki's and Senju's where friends and similar in some ways but do not have the exact same blooda as Senju.. Last time I checked Nagato never dodged Bee V2, he got hit by it and started absorbing the chakra. Then once Base Bee tried to attack from his blind spot Nagato reacted because he had that thing looking behind him. The walking with brined legs is will power, nothing to do with speed.



We saw that they're hardly slow. Nagato is from Senju lineage as Zetsu clearly stated, which would generally mean he has a Senju body. He just so happens to have Uzumaki characteristics too. 

Check again, Nagato was underneath Bee, _dodged_ *then* got hit. Still not bad for a cripple. Nagato had fast enough reflexes to react to Bee, if he saw Bee but had horrible reflexes, he wouldn't have dodged Bee. Refer to Sasuke vs Rock Lee about how inadequate reflexes render seeing a fast foe meaningless.



> Again, Nagato won't absorb PS fast, it would take time and PS can swing its sword fairly fast.



We've seen time and time again that when a jutsu is being absorbed, it is hopeless. PS swinging its sword towards the barrier which is absorbing it isn't a good idea.



> No, Nagato won't be dodging a PS slash, not sufficient speed feats to even assume he can.



We've seen him outpace a ST and dodge Bee _while crippled_. Couple that with his Hanzo feat and Senju genetics and you've got a good case.



> But he won't so all this is irrelevant.



Weak point for several reasons. Mainly because it involves severely underestimating the Preta Path.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually it means a lot. Unless the OP limits Nagato's jutsu output to the level of Pain's, then we're free to speculate how strong it could be. We have more than enough to infer this, for instance Nagato had a village destroying ST when all his chakra was channeled into a God Realm far away from himself.



That means nothing, that's what we refer to as CST. We cannot infer what his abilities can be, that's giving him a free powerup for nothing. CST is his largest attack. He had not shown any impressive ST when he was in his prime. I guess, since Susanoo can vary in size, Madara can make him as big as the Budha GG. That's what happenes when you start inferring on Characters power-ups. 



> That is very different to the Hiruzen hype which we have nothing to support. However the lack of support doesn't mean that it is something we should ignore.



We have nothing to support Nagato's hype either, he had shown nothing better when facing Naruto and Bee then he did with the paths. The only thing that was better was how he used the paths all in quick succession, in other words, the efficiency of having all paths in one body as opposed to 1 path every 6 bodies. 





> You say it didn't let Madara get destroyed, yet Madara's ET looks like it was recovering after being destroyed. Hashirama was pretty convinced the Bijuu-Dama would destroy himself and Madara. The latter acknowledged that but disregarded it saying it was meaningless as they were ET shinobi. In other words notice Madara did not think PS would prevent him from being destroyed as you think it did.



How does it look like he is recovering? It does not, the shockwave that Juubito created in pulling out the Jubi is what might have made you think so. Like I said. How was Hashirama convinced? He wanted to stop the fight?



> We've seen patterns of ET shinobi when they've recovered from being destroyed, it pretty much indicated that Madara was destroyed. In fact, the man himself acknowledged that the four Juubi-Dama would destroy him.



Don't make assumptions like that, he never said that he would be destroyed, he simply said there is no reason to stop fighting because they are Edo so if worst comes to worst they can regenerate. *Like I said, when an Edo has to regenerate, they regenerate to the state they where revived in, Madara was not revived with those marks on his face (the dirt/stain/bruise marks), therefore, he did not regenarate. Unless you can show me a picture where Madara regenerates and still has those marks, this remains a fact. *






> Not sure about CT, but CST is the natural argument to be brought up in response to PS. However PS with EMS Madara always enters the picture, as such CST will enter the picture too.



Yes but CST cannot destroy PS, so it does not matter whether it is brought to the picture or not. Once PS comes out Nagato looses, this has been widely accepted already. 





> Depending on how you use them, they do cut it. If you hinge on them alone, then your case is shaky. If you're using them to support something shown in the manga, it works more perfectly than a feats only argument. For instance we have a statement of Nagato's jutsu output being stronger, we've seen two examples of Pain's jutsu output being superior when he's either closer to Nagato or has Nagato's chakra in one body... Naruto gave us a statement which was logical: Nagato's jutsu output is greater than Pain's when he's using his own body. It would make sense given that the extra chakra used on functioning Pain is put into the Rinnegan jutsu.



Like I said, it make sense, but we cannot speculate on how much stronger it really is, since we do not have enough feats. Speculations like these should be avoided, I have made a speculation above concerning PS, its just as viable as this speculation. 




> That assumes we know the quantity of chakra in PS. We've seen Madara absorb Susanoo and Jinton at the same time, at a large speed. We've seen Nagato absorb a chakra arm and Rasengan at the same time. We've even seen Obito absorb Kakashi's chakra shroud the moment he touched Kakashi.
> In other words we've seen consistently that chakra quantity is meaningless to the Preta Path, it will absorb quickly regardless. Other absorption techniques, like the one used by Samehada fit the criterion you're talking about.



When has Madara absorbed Susanoo at all? He deactivates his Susanoo when he uses Preta path to absorb Jinton. He did not absorb the rasengan quick though. When has Obito absorbed Kakashis chakra shroud? That never happened. Preta path takes time if the quantity is big enough, Preta path took time in absorbing the large burning soup that Jiraiya, Ma and Pa made. It did not absorb Rasengan instantly either, and it did not instantly absorb Bee's chakra either despite him literally being covered in it. 



> Slow absorption has _never_ been an issue with the Preta Path. There's a reason that many, including the Shinobi Alliance's best strategist never commented on it.



It took some time to absorb Bee's chakra, it would take hundread times more then that to absorb PS. 





> We saw that they're hardly slow. Nagato is from Senju lineage as Zetsu clearly stated, which would generally mean he has a Senju body. He just so happens to have Uzumaki characteristics too.



Fair point here, did not notice that, I concede this part. 



> Check again, Nagato was underneath Bee, _dodged_ *then* got hit. Still not bad for a cripple. Nagato had fast enough reflexes to react to Bee, if he saw Bee but had horrible reflexes, he wouldn't have dodged Bee. Refer to Sasuke vs Rock Lee about how inadequate reflexes render seeing a fast foe meaningless.



He jumped back once Bee turned V2, once V2 Bee charged he was helpless. 





> We've seen time and time again that when a jutsu is being absorbed, it is hopeless. PS swinging its sword towards the barrier which is absorbing it isn't a good idea.



PS slash is a physically natural attack, its not chakra based. Nagato would get hit by it and get eradicated like the two mountains. No one in the manga has shown multiple mountain level durability.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> That means nothing, that's what we refer to as CST. We cannot infer what his abilities can be, that's giving him a free powerup for nothing. CST is his largest attack. He had not shown any impressive ST when he was in his prime. I guess, since Susanoo can vary in size, Madara can make him as big as the Budha GG. That's what happenes when you start inferring on Characters power-ups.



That's giving him a benefit he's stated to have in canon. 
If you can argue Madara has the chakra reserves, go head. However that notion lacks the support that the Nagato notion has.



> How does it look like he is recovering? It does not, the shockwave that Juubito created in pulling out the Jubi is what might have made you think so. Like I said. How was Hashirama convinced? He wanted to stop the fight?



Compare the patterns in the links I provided. Read Hashirama's words. 


> Yes but CST cannot destroy PS, so it does not matter whether it is brought to the picture or not. Once PS comes out Nagato looses, this has been widely accepted already.




You assume it can't destroy PS, but haven't given any adequate reasoning. You could make a case that maybe a distanced God Realm level CST can't do the job, but you've not even factored in the in-manga factors which indicate a CST from Nagato would be far more powerful. 

Widely accepted only when the aforementioned factors are completely ignored. Need an example? Look no further than your case, which relies on capping Nagato's CST level to a distanced God Realm's level.



> When has Madara absorbed Susanoo at all? He deactivates his Susanoo when he uses Preta path to absorb Jinton. He did not absorb the rasengan quick though. When has Obito absorbed Kakashis chakra shroud? That never happened. Preta path takes time if the quantity is big enough, Preta path took time in absorbing the large burning soup that Jiraiya, Ma and Pa made. It did not absorb Rasengan instantly either, and it did not instantly absorb Bee's chakra either despite him literally being covered in it.



When Oonoki was going to do a surprise Jinton attack. You could say he deactivated it first, but you'd have to prove it since the panels suggest he used the Preta Path on the whole lot.
The Rasengan and arm were absorbed fast enough to the point that Naruto (faster than the Raikage) couldn't do anything.

Compare the panels with Kakashi's shroud and the lack of it. 

The manga shows panels of an ability being used. Unless something like slow absorption is a stated disadvantage, you've got a weak case. If Shikaku won't even acknowledge it as a legit drawback, why should we?



> It took some time to absorb Bee's chakra, it would take hundread times more then that to absorb PS.



It absorbed it so fast that Bee _couldn't_ do anything whilst it happened. The same thing will happen with Susanoo.




> He jumped back once Bee turned V2, once V2 Bee charged he was helpless.



You do realise this _is_ an amazing feat for a cripple. ITT he isn't a cripple.




> PS slash is a physically natural attack, its not chakra based. Nagato would get hit by it and get eradicated like the two mountains. No one in the manga has shown multiple mountain level durability.



The slashes are natural based, but the chakra construct making them isn't. 
Who said he'd be hit, he could quite easily dodge seeing as ITT he doesn't start out tired, chakra deprived* or crippled.

*In this state he was still able to dodge V2 Bee's attack.

On top of that, he has God Realm flight abilities.


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## tkpirate (Jan 18, 2014)

nagato can't dodge PS slash.madara is faster than nagato,so his attack speed is faster than nagato's reaction speed.and those PS slash have decent AOE.and madara has two PS swards,he can spam many PS slash.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> nagato can't dodge PS slash.madara is faster than nagato,so his attack speed is faster than nagato's reaction speed.and those PS slash have decent AOE.and madara has two PS swards,he can spam many PS slash.



How can you tell Nagato can't dodge a slash... because exhausted Gokage couldn't?

Why does attack speed mean anything to ST and Preta Path which can be activated on will? Also how did you work out Madara's attack speed was superior by such a large margin insofar that it would make a difference?

Sure he could try and spam them, but then the debate will boil down to what it always boils down to: what if Nagato uses a powerful CST? Obviously due to manga evidence we are forced to assume Nagato's CST would be more powerful than a distanced God Realm who used chakra from a Nagato who was quite chakra deprived.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 18, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> nagato can't dodge PS slash.madara is faster than nagato,so his attack speed is faster than nagato's reaction speed.and those PS slash have decent AOE.and madara has two PS swards,he can spam many PS slash.


Where has it been stated that Madara's speed was far greater than Nagato's that a difference can actually be shown? And what speed are you talking about because agile speed is far different than attack speed?


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## tkpirate (Jan 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How can you tell Nagato can't dodge a slash... because exhausted Gokage couldn't?
> 
> Why does attack speed mean anything to ST and Preta Path which can be activated on will? Also how did you work out Madara's attack speed was superior by such a large margin insofar that it would make a difference?
> 
> Sure he could try and spam them, but then the debate will boil down to what it always boils down to: what if Nagato uses a powerful CST? Obviously due to manga evidence we are forced to assume Nagato's CST would be more powerful than a distanced God Realm who used chakra from a Nagato who was quite chakra deprived.



because nagato dosen't have enough good speed feats to dodge PS slash.he can't blitz even SM naruto,and blind madara can blitz SM naruto.and if he uses ST or CST then he can't use it for 5 seconds.and CST isn't strong enough to do anything.


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## tkpirate (Jan 18, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Where has it been stated that Madara's speed was far greater than Nagato's that a difference can actually be shown? And what speed are you talking about because agile speed is far different than attack speed?



madara has fought against the fastest people in verse and never got blitz.nagato failed to blitz SM naruto.that's enough.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> because nagato dosen't have enough good speed feats to dodge PS slash.he can't blitz even SM naruto,and blind madara can blitz SM naruto.and if he uses ST or CST then he can't use it for 5 seconds.and CST isn't strong enough to do anything.



Pain Rikudou _did_ match SM Naruto's speed. Nagato had good enough reflexes to react to the faster KCM Naruto and V2 Killer B... the latter whilst he was crippled. 

You say CST won't be strong to do anything, but don't say why. One could argue because the "CST won't do anything" has no real backing. Especially when we've seen countless times that ST can be concentrated to a single point/target i.e. it has the potential to do worse than the omnidirectional ST we saw Tendo perform.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How can you tell Nagato can't dodge a slash... because exhausted Gokage couldn't?
> 
> Why does attack speed mean anything to ST and Preta Path which can be activated on will? Also how did you work out Madara's attack speed was superior by such a large margin insofar that it would make a difference?
> 
> Sure he could try and spam them, but then the debate will boil down to what it always boils down to: what if Nagato uses a powerful CST? Obviously due to manga evidence we are forced to assume Nagato's CST would be more powerful than a distanced God Realm who used chakra from a Nagato who was quite chakra deprived.



What do you mean how can you tell? Dude, if he has not shown the feats required to dodge a PS slash then he can't. Preta path and Deva path are not instant, especially Preta which actually needs some time for the barrier to go up. Hence he was stabbed by Totsuka. Madaras speed is much better, he can blitz SM Naruto and Sai at the Same time, 3rd Raikage in V1 was not able to blitz SM Naruto alone. Madara should be faster then V2 Bee, seeing as how V2 Bee is only slightly faster then 3rd Raikage in V1. This is of course, talking about physical speed. PS slash are fast enough to cut down mountains in an instant, and he can do it consecutively, not to mention a regular ST won't be enough to repel the attack, he would need quiet the large one which entails a larger time gap between the next.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's giving him a benefit he's stated to have in canon.
> If you can argue Madara has the chakra reserves, go head. However that notion lacks the support that the Nagato notion has.



No it does not, your purely speculating based off of Naruto's words, if it was not for his words, no one would ever think that Nagatos powers are stronger then they are in Deva path. Meanwhile, Madara has huge chakra reserves, Susanoo has shown to vary in size and PS is very large. But I'm not using this arguement cause its still too vague, as is your Nagato argument. 





> Compare the patterns in the links I provided. Read Hashirama's words.



What of them? Madara had the exact same patterns after his PS tanked the 4 Jubidamas and before. 




> You assume it can't destroy PS, but haven't given any adequate reasoning. You could make a case that maybe a distanced God Realm level CST can't do the job, but you've not even factored in the in-manga factors which indicate a CST from Nagato would be far more powerful.



LOL no, stop making assumptions, your whole case is purely based on assumptions. Until you show me a more powerful CST then what the god realm did all of this is pure speculation and thus have no say in what Nagato would do. Your speculations don't mean anything here, you either give sufficient evidence to support your claims (a character statement is to vague) or yo do not bring this point up at all. Your purely making a decisive factor on speculation. This line of thinking is extremely flawed. 




> Widely accepted only when the aforementioned factors are completely ignored. Need an example? Look no further than your case, which relies on capping Nagato's CST level to a distanced God Realm's level.



Sigh............your whole argument is based on a power scale we do not know. Until you show me exactly how much stronger CST of Nagatos is you cannot say its far stronger then Deva paths. 




> When Oonoki was going to do a surprise Jinton attack. You could say he deactivated it first, but you'd have to prove it since the panels suggest he used the Preta Path on the whole lot.
> The Rasengan and arm were absorbed fast enough to the point that Naruto (faster than the Raikage) couldn't do anything.



No, deactivating Susanoo is just as instant as activating it. Couldn't do anything about it? Yeah , maybe because he w held down and was covered in pure chakra.............What could he have done? 




> The manga shows panels of an ability being used. Unless something like slow absorption is a stated disadvantage, you've got a weak case. If Shikaku won't even acknowledge it as a legit drawback, why should we?



Its not slow, its fast compared to other variations of absorption. But its far from instant, if it took time to fully absorb Bee's chakra then it will take way more time to absorb PS. The very thought of him absorbing it in an instant is ridiculous.  





> It absorbed it so fast that Bee _couldn't_ do anything whilst it happened. The same thing will happen with Susanoo.



It was fast but not extremely fast. PS is a chakra being hundreds times larger then Bee is, it will take far more time to absorb it. If he try's he gets killed by a nearly instant PS slash. 





> You do realise this _is_ an amazing feat for a cripple. ITT he isn't a cripple.



Jumping back? Yes I guess it is amazing for a cripple, does not mean much though. If a Man in a wheel chair got up and started slowly walking around the house does that make him a. Faster walker then a non-crippled person? No.






> The slashes are natural based, but the chakra construct making them isn't.
> Who said he'd be hit, he could quite easily dodge seeing as ITT he doesn't start out tired, chakra deprived* or crippled.



No he can't, more speculating from you. This is really getting ridiculous. What's Nagato's best speed feat? Ya that's right, he did not have any. 



> *In this state he was still able to dodge V2 Bee's attack.
> 
> On top of that, he has God Realm flight abilities.



He was never able to dodge V2 Bee's attack, he CLEARLY got hit by it. Jumping back is good for a cripple, its not any better then fodder standards, want me to show you a fodder jumping backwards? 

Flight abilities? He stayed in the air for a little time and then fell back down. If he had flight abilities he would not need his bird. Yet again more speculating from you.


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## tkpirate (Jan 18, 2014)

only the fact that a EMS madara came very close to defeating prime Hashirama is enough to say who will win this match.


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## tkpirate (Jan 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Pain Rikudou _did_ match SM Naruto's speed. Nagato had good enough reflexes to react to the faster KCM Naruto and V2 Killer B... the latter whilst he was crippled.
> 
> You say CST won't be strong to do anything, but don't say why. One could argue because the "CST won't do anything" has no real backing. Especially when we've seen countless times that ST can be concentrated to a single point/target i.e. it has the potential to do worse than the omnidirectional ST we saw Tendo perform.



keeping up and blitzing isn't same.edo nagato fought KCM,and naruto wasn't trying to kill him.ST can be concentrated to a single target.there are no feats that says CST can be.and a six tailed naruto can overpower a concentrated ST.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> What do you mean how can you tell? Dude, if he has not shown the feats required to dodge a PS slash then he can't. Preta path and Deva path are not instant, especially Preta which actually needs some time for the barrier to go up. Hence he was stabbed by Totsuka. Madaras speed is much better, he can blitz SM Naruto and Sai at the Same time, 3rd Raikage in V1 was not able to blitz SM Naruto alone. Madara should be faster then V2 Bee, seeing as how V2 Bee is only slightly faster then 3rd Raikage in V1. This is of course, talking about physical speed. PS slash are fast enough to cut down mountains in an instant, and he can do it consecutively, not to mention a regular ST won't be enough to repel the attack, he would need quiet the large one which entails a larger time gap between the next.



We've got manga evidence suggesting his prime should be capable of decent enough speed feats. However you're ignoring that whilst overestimating the scale of a PS slash, by that logic Hashirama should've been screwed when Madara used a double Kyuubi PS slash on Hashirama.

The Totsuka feat isn't generalisable here because Nagato is in control of his own body, _wants to fight_ and isn't crippled. So whilst ignoring some manga evidence you're using a Nagato subject to different restrictions to support your case in a thread where said restrictions don't exist.

Every time we've seen ST the time limit has just been five seconds, any longer applied to God Realm Pain only. Furthermore where are you getting the information that the PS slash can't be blocked by ST? That's a point you've been stating several times without actually supporting it.

Also how did you work out Bee's speed relative to the Raikage? 


> No it does not, your purely speculating based off of Naruto's words, if it was not for his words, no one would ever think that Nagatos powers are stronger then they are in Deva path. Meanwhile, Madara has huge chakra reserves, Susanoo has shown to vary in size and PS is very large. But I'm not using this arguement cause its still too vague, as is your Nagato argument.



"Since he's not using human puppets, the power and speed of his jutsu are completely on another level"... Tell me in what world that _isn't_ straightforward. 

It is your choice to assume Nagato's jutsu isn't stronger than the Deva Path. However as per canon, you'd be wrong. More so as you're disagreeing with the guy (Naruto) who fought Pain and Nagato.

You'd have to prove Madara's chakra reserves are at least as large as Hashirama's for that Susanoo case to have any water. 

The Madara point you made (huge chakra reserves without saying it is equal to Hashirama's) is vague; the Nagato point is as straightforward as you can get.



> What of them? Madara had the exact same patterns after his PS tanked the 4 Jubidamas and before.



Tanking isn't equal to getting destroyed. Compare the patterns and you'll notice his patterns are consistent with the ET regeneration patterns.



> LOL no, stop making assumptions, your whole case is purely based on assumptions. Until you show me a more powerful CST then what the god realm did all of this is pure speculation and thus have no say in what Nagato would do. Your speculations don't mean anything here, you either give sufficient evidence to support your claims (a character statement is to vague) or yo do not bring this point up at all. Your purely making a decisive factor on speculation. This line of thinking is extremely flawed.



You mean I'm using a manga statement whilst you're telling me PS getting destroyed means it tanked a jutsu. 

Who needs to show you a more powerful ST when the manga outright tells you Nagato's jutsu output >>> Pain's. More so when it shows you God Realm needs to be closer to Nagato to use powerful jutsu like CT. 

Your argument relies on pure speculation without a shred of credible canon. Whilst you're ignoring a canon statement from the manga. That is a flawed line of thinking. 

Care to explain why I should believe speculation that PS tanked a Juubi-Dama and disregard a canon statement of Nagato's jutsu>>>Pain's?



> No, deactivating Susanoo is just as instant as activating it. Couldn't do anything about it? Yeah , maybe because he w held down and was covered in pure chakra.............What could he have done?



Susanoo has never deactivated instantly. So the only logical assumption is that he absorbed the whole lot. Madara had no time to deactivate one jutsu (which takes time to deactivate) then activate another.



> Its not slow, its fast compared to other variations of absorption. But its far from instant, if it took time to fully absorb Bee's chakra then it will take way more time to absorb PS. The very thought of him absorbing it in an instant is ridiculous.




You're assuming it is slow enough for a shinobi to take advantage of the process. Yet strategies used by those who know the power well don't consider that as a viable drawback to try and exploit. The logical assumption is the speed of the absorption is meaningless and it can't be exploited. Otherwise the smarted guy in the alliance would've said it is possible.

Note no-one thought of ever stating that they should use a jutsu with a massive amount of chakra.



> Jumping back? Yes I guess it is amazing for a cripple, does not mean much though. If a Man in a wheel chair got up and started slowly walking around the house does that make him a. Faster walker then a non-crippled person? No.



False analogy.

As a cripple whose mobility was stated to be a large problem, he showed very decent speed feats. He was able to even move quickly almost instantaneously when his legs were burning - something Hanzo himself said was no small feat.

Couple that with him being a Senju and the fact that through Pain he was able to show off amazing speed feats... and the fact he mastered all basic Ninjutsu (including the Shunshin no jutsu).

It is *very* easy to make a case for his speed.



> Flight abilities? He stayed in the air for a little time and then fell back down. If he had flight abilities he would not need his bird. Yet again more speculating from you.



God Realm flew before he destroyed Konoha, are you going to tell me that Nagato lacks the powers *he gave Pain*?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> keeping up and blitzing isn't same.edo nagato fought KCM,and naruto wasn't trying to kill him.ST can be concentrated to a single target.there are no feats that says CST can be.and a six tailed naruto can overpower a concentrated ST.



You're thinking about Itachi. Naruto was actually trying to defeat Nagato.

Look up every directional Shinra Tensei feat, you'll notice the patten.

CST is just a big ST, so if a ST can be directional/concentrated, so can a CST.

6 tailed Naruto's special chakra shroud probably has properties which could offset and rebound a distanced God Realm's ST. Though you'd need to prove that Perfect Susanoo has the same properties as Kurama's chakra.


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## tkpirate (Jan 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're thinking about Itachi. Naruto was actually trying to defeat Nagato.
> 
> Look up every directional Shinra Tensei feat, you'll notice the patten.
> 
> ...



that was edo nagato,he had unlimited chakra.even prime nagato wouldn't have unlimited chakra.and KCM naruto made 13 clones before fighting nagato.so he probably wasn't at his best speed.any feat of a directional CST ?i don't accept things without feat.but this time i will believe you.PS tanked a bijuu bomb from 100% kyuubi.naruto with 50% kyuubi can match a combined BB from 5 bijuu's.and PS tanked it very casually.PS is big chakra construct same as naruto's bijuu cloak,but probably much stronger.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 18, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> madara has fought against the fastest people in verse and never got blitz.nagato failed to blitz SM naruto.that's enough.


That was Deva we are talking about Nagato


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 18, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> only the fact that a EMS madara came very close to defeating prime Hashirama is enough to say who will win this match.


That was EMS Madara with Kurama don't forget.


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## tkpirate (Jan 18, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> That was Deva we are talking about Nagato



so what ?we are talking about feats not assumptions.


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## tkpirate (Jan 18, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> That was EMS Madara with Kurama don't forget.



kyuubi didn't made any difference in that fight.Hashirama just activated SM and took out the kyuubi.madara on his own almost defeated Hashirama.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 18, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> so what ?we are talking about feats not assumptions.



That's what these people don't understand. 



sanninme rikudo said:


> That was Deva we are talking about Nagato



What's your point? Naruto was talking about the paths themselves, he never said anything up improvements in physical attributes. Nagato failed to blitz Pein arc SM Naruto, Madara blitzed SM Naruto and Sai at the same time.

You guys really gotta learn not to base your arguments around assumption and speculation.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 18, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> That's what these people don't understand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As you have said you are wasting your time so its pointless arguing with you i stopped a while ago


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## Fiiction (Jan 26, 2014)

Madara throws 2 susanoo boomerang swords then blitz. gg


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## Odie Esty (Jan 26, 2014)

Is Susano'o made of chakra? Because if it is, then Nagato could just absorb it and Madara's biggest advantage is lost. If that's the case I think Nagato could win. if not, I'm honestly not sure.


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## Fiiction (Jan 26, 2014)

I doubt Nagato can absorb Madara's ps In a matter of seconds..


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jan 27, 2014)

Jiraiya preoccupied Preta with a single Katon long enough for him to take out the other 2 paths, Nagato isn't absorbing even 1% of PS before it slashes its sword.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 27, 2014)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Jiraiya preoccupied Preta with a single Katon long enough for him to take out the other 2 paths, Nagato isn't absorbing even 1% of PS before it slashes its sword.


That was Preta Pain we are talking about Nagato who absorbed V2 bee in a matter of secs


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## Jagger (Jan 27, 2014)

Nagato's absorption rate is faster while he's on solo mode.

However, Madara is not going to stand there and let Nagato do the work.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 27, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> That was Preta Pain we are talking about Nagato who absorbed V2 bee in a matter of secs



And perfect Susano'o is on a completely different scale to that. I'm not seeing your point.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 28, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Nagato's absorption rate is faster while he's on solo mode.
> 
> However, Madara is not going to stand there and let Nagato do the work.


What is Madara going to do? try to slice him with his sword that would be pretty senseless and stupid since his sword won't even get passed the absorption barrier


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (Jan 29, 2014)

People saying Nagato can absorb PS because he absorbed Bee's V2 cloak are certainly incorrect. Not only does the PS contain more chakra than an ordinary V2 cloak, there's quite a difference in volumes as well. Preta won't be able to absorb such huge volume quick enough before Nagato gets bisected with shockwave, seeing as how an oil katon combination already kept Preta busy enough. It can absorb large amount of chakra quickly, but can only do so with concentrated chakra in a small area like Bee's body. PS has been shown to be 10x+ the size of a Bijuu, Nagato isn't absorbing anything, Madara takes this comfortably.


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## Joakim3 (Jan 29, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> And perfect Susano'o is on a completely different scale to that. I'm not seeing your point.



_Fujutsu Kuyin_'s absorption rate is on par with _Mokuton: Mokuryū no Jutsu_ which deactivated Naruto's BM within *seconds* (you know, the _Super Bijdama_ spamming one that can give chakra to the entire alliance), so theoretically yes it should be *very* capable of leeching PS given enough time (and if Madara did nothing about it)

Where the problem lies is Madara knows what _Fujutsu Kuyin_ can do, and would never let Nagato within a mile of PS. It would be sword slashing heaven until Madara was satisfied Nagato and his portion of landscape where removed from the planet


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 30, 2014)

EMS Madara isn't going get very far if he's going to rely on jutsu Nagato can simply absorb. Rinnegan Madara, even Mokuton Madara has more versatility that Madara could use to get by Nagato's absorption.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 30, 2014)

Cheeky Nayrudo said:


> People saying Nagato can absorb PS because he absorbed Bee's V2 cloak are certainly incorrect. Not only does the PS contain more chakra than an ordinary V2 cloak, there's quite a difference in volumes as well. Preta won't be able to absorb such huge volume quick enough before Nagato gets bisected with shockwave, seeing as how an oil katon combination already kept Preta busy enough. It can absorb large amount of chakra quickly, but can only do so with concentrated chakra in a small area like Bee's body. PS has been shown to be 10x+ the size of a Bijuu, Nagato isn't absorbing anything, Madara takes this comfortably.


I did not come to the conclusion that Nagato can absorb PS based on him absorbing V2 Bee. PS is chakra right? So  Preta would be able to absorb it since he can absorb Chakra in any form. You saying he can't absorb PS because is too big is really not going to cut it its still chakra no matter how big it is like everything else that comes in contact with Preta it will get absorbed. And the Susanoo attacking while getting absorbed is not very wise because his sword will just come to a stop and get absorbed when in contact with the absorption barrier


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## genii96 (Feb 10, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> madara never used his PS sward slash on gokage.and his PS sward slash should be as strong as bijuu bombs which are big island level to country level.and if itachi is right he should have amaterasu.and a strong enough PS sward slash will overpower ST and CST.



his ps slash is not going to do anything but get absorbed. I was reffering to the shockwave.Only the juubi bijudama can bust a country,the rest are mountain busters. A casual ST from pain was able to repel 3 bijuu sized targets kilometres away,the gokage were knocked off their feet only by the shockwave.


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## Lord Aizen (Feb 10, 2014)

I think what everyone is forgetting is that what madara did with perfect sasunoo was simply a casual slash. He made PS JUst take out it's sword if madaras PS used a full power slash at Nagato he would be obliterated into nothing


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## Kyuuzen (Feb 10, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I did not come to the conclusion that Nagato can absorb PS based on him absorbing V2 Bee. PS is chakra right? So  Preta would be able to absorb it since he can absorb Chakra in any form. You saying he can't absorb PS because is too big is really not going to cut it its still chakra no matter how big it is like everything else that comes in contact with Preta it will get absorbed. And the Susanoo attacking while getting absorbed is not very wise because his sword will just come to a stop and get absorbed when in contact with the absorption barrier



So, by your argument, if I were to take a sponge to the beach and drop it in the water it would absorb the ocean?

ABSOLUTELY NOT.  That is a ridiculous argument and is less fact and more wank.  

At the end of the day, Nagato's destructive capability is a village, possibly more on his own.  Madara wipes out mountain ranges.  Nagato failed to blitz Naruto.  Madara had no problem doing so.  

Madara takes this.


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## T-Bag (Feb 11, 2014)

Madara is too much for nagato. Too experienced and just too strong


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Feb 11, 2014)

For the love of fuck, this thread is old. After 15 pages, no one's gonna change their arguments or their view, no matter how biased and stupid.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 11, 2014)

ST can make PS losing balance and fall to the ground, CT can trapped Madara and his PS, and what can stop Nagato from absorbing PS which entirely made of chakra? Seriously ems madara is overrated, the guy needed kyuubi to fight on equal ground with hashirama.


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## Dominus (Feb 11, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> ST can make PS losing balance and fall to the ground



He would need CST for that which means he wouldn't be able to use ST for a long time afterwards and I don't see what good would making PS lose balance/fall do.



> CT can trapped Madara and his PS



He can destroy CT's sphere with PS slashes, Yasaka Magatama, fire techniques...



> what can stop Nagato from absorbing PS which entirely made of chakra?



PS is enormous so it will take a lot of time to absorb it and what makes you think Madara would just let him do it.



> Seriously ems madara is overrated, the guy needed kyuubi to fight on equal ground with hashirama.



You're talking as if Hashirama is a weakling.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 11, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> So, by your argument, if I were to take a sponge to the beach and drop it in the water it would absorb the ocean?
> 
> ABSOLUTELY NOT.  That is a ridiculous argument and is less fact and more wank.
> 
> ...


First off that was a useless comparison that made no sense in this matter why would a sponge absorb the ocean the ifference between a sponge and preta is that Preta was said to have no asborption limits so please keep your nonsensical comparisons to a minimal 
Second that was a Deva path who was being controlled by a weakened Nagato from a far distance so im sure Nagato him self in his prime would do way more than that 
Third Nagato wasn't fully mobilized and he still mopped the floor with two jinchuriki 
And last Nagato takes this


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 11, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> He would need CST for that which means he wouldn't be able to use ST for a long time afterwards and I don't see what good would making PS lose balance/fall do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I doubt Madara would know to strike the center so he ends up getting trapped.
If PS is on the floor Nagato can just BT him out easier then soul rip him
Nagato can just BT him in general so no PS for him
and what is Madara going to do while Nagato is absorbing him try to attack him with PS sword which wouldn't be wise since he's just giving him more chakra to absorb
And can't a fully charged Asura Gun break PS? not sure about this but since this is prime Nagato it should


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## Dominus (Feb 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I doubt Madara would know to strike the center so he ends up getting trapped.



Madara is intelligent, I don't see why wouldn't he try it. 



> If PS is on the floor Nagato can just BT him out easier then soul rip him
> Nagato can just BT him in general so no PS for him



How can he get him out of PS when it's closed.



> and what is Madara going to do while Nagato is absorbing him try to attack him with PS sword which wouldn't be wise since he's just giving him more chakra to absorb



How can PS slashes be absorbed when it's not ninjutsu?



> And can't a fully charged Asura Gun break PS? not sure about this but since this is prime Nagato it should



He can block Kurama's Bijūdama yet he can't survive Asura Path's explosions.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 11, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Madara is intelligent, I don't see why wouldn't he try it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not as intelligent as itachi was so no unless we see him do something like that
PS is closed to outsiders but the person inside can get out so gravity pulls him out
What does he use to make the slash a Susanoo sword made out of chakra so yea it gets absorbed
And yea your right on this but we havent really gotten to see Nagato use it on full scale


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## Dominus (Feb 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Not as intelligent as itachi was so no unless we see him do something like that



You don't have to be as smart as Itachi to figure it out, only an idiot would wait to get crushed, he would either attack CT's sphere or Nagato, if he attacks the sphere it will be destroyed, if he attacks Nagato, the sphere will pull the attack and it will be destroyed.



> PS is closed to outsiders but the person inside can get out so gravity pulls him out



The problem with BT is the same as with CT, it pulls all of the enemy's attacks.



> What does he use to make the slash a Susanoo sword made out of chakra so yea it gets absorbed



It doesn't matter what he uses when the slash isn't made of chakra.



> And yea your right on this but we havent really gotten to see Nagato use it on full scale



It certainly isn't on the level of a Bijūdama.


It's as simple as this, Nagato can't destroy PS nor can he defend against it.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 11, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> You don't have to be as smart as Itachi to figure it out, only an idiot would wait to get crushed, he would either attack CT's sphere or Nagato, if he attacks the sphere it will be destroyed, if he attacks Nagato, the sphere will pull the attack and it will be destroyed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He would most likely attack Nagato the core however i doubt but attacking Nagato wont do him any good
Actually The whole attack wont be pulled becasue In the invasion of pain pain pulled a nail off the wood with out pulling the whole thing
If he absorbs the sword what slash would be made?
And why would he need to waste his time breaking susanoo he can just pull him out of it


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I doubt Madara would know to strike the center so he ends up getting trapped.
> If PS is on the floor Nagato can just BT him out easier then soul rip him
> Nagato can just BT him in general so no PS for him
> and what is Madara going to do while Nagato is absorbing him try to attack him with PS sword which wouldn't be wise since he's just giving him more chakra to absorb
> And can't a fully charged Asura Gun break PS? not sure about this but since this is prime Nagato it should



Only an idiot would not know to attack the black thing that is attracting everything towards it  everything. BT and ST work under the same path, which requires a 5 second interval. Besides, using BT on him would only get Nagato killed. What is he going to do? Maybe slash the ground? LOLOLOLOLOLOL a fully charged Asura gun breaking PS. It would not be able to break Ribcage Susanoo.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 11, 2014)

Susanoo is useless when there is Preta Path.
The "absorbing time" is something *no-one* in this thread as adequately proved. 

So it really comes down to a Madara who can't use chakra attacks vs Nagato.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 11, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Susanoo is useless when there is Preta Path.
> The "absorbing time" is something *no-one* in this thread as adequately proved.
> 
> So it really comes down to a Madara who can't use chakra attacks vs Nagato.



There has been more then adaquite proof here that Nagato won't be able to absorb PS fast enough. Wether you choose to ignore it or not is up to you.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> There has been more then adaquite proof here that Nagato won't be able to absorb PS fast enough. Wether you choose to ignore it or not is up to you.



There has been *no proof*. Just speculation.


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## Jagger (Feb 11, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> ST can make PS losing balance and fall to the ground, CT can trapped Madara and his PS, and what can stop Nagato from absorbing PS which entirely made of chakra? Seriously ems madara is overrated, the guy needed kyuubi to fight on equal ground with hashirama.


Because:

1. It'd require much chakra than Nagato usually uses to make one as Perfect Susano'O it's too big. It'd require something even more powerful than the ST used against Naruto's toads.

2. That if Madara doesn't try to destroy the defendless core.

3. That'd take way too long than you think. Something of that size can't be easily absored and getting too close it is pretty dangerous and risky as Madara can just swing his sword and push Nagaro back or straight out kill him.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Only an idiot would not know to attack the black thing that is attracting everything towards it  everything. BT and ST work under the same path, which requires a 5 second interval. Besides, using BT on him would only get Nagato killed. What is he going to do? Maybe slash the ground? LOLOLOLOLOLOL a fully charged Asura gun breaking PS. It would not be able to break Ribcage Susanoo.


Did you know when you first saw CT that the black core was the weakness?
Nothing suggests he stills has the interval
How would BT get Nagato killed? if anything it gets Madara killed (this made no sense)
If Madara has gone mental then he probably would slash the ground but other than that he would otherwise try to slash Nagato in which his attept would just get absorbed
And please show the evidence that u call adequate of Nagato not being able to absorb PS fast enough


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 11, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There has been *no proof*. Just speculation.



On the contrary. The people who think Nagato can are speculating. And you like speculating quiet a lot yourself............



sanninme rikudo said:


> Did you know when you first saw CT that the black core was the weakness?
> Nothing suggests he stills has the interval
> How would BT get Nagato killed? if anything it gets Madara killed (this made no sense)
> If Madara has gone mental then he probably would slash the ground but other than that he would otherwise try to slash Nagato in which his attept would just get absorbed
> And please show the evidence that u call adequate of Nagato not being able to absorb PS fast enough



Yes its common sense. Though comparing a normal person who is just casually reading the manga to a person who has superior IQ to Albert Einstein by at least 50 and is in the moment getting affected and sees it first hand is pointless. There is nothing that suggests that there isn't, BT and ST clearly fall under the same path which has a 5second cool down. Because Madara casually blasts him with his smoke bomb like Katon and blitzes him while he is burned and unaware of what's happening, or simply uses Genjutsu on him. lol if Madara has gone mental he will try to slash the ground? So doing the right thing makes you mental? No reason to slash Nagato when even Naruto knew that direct Ninjutsu is pointless. Evidence? Was there not enough already shown? The fact that he was not able to absorb Bee's human compacted chakra in an instant is more then enough proof that he would not be able to absorb PS, something that is litterally thousands times bigger then Bee fast enough.


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## Dominus (Feb 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> He would most likely attack Nagato the core however i doubt but attacking Nagato wont do him any good



Did you not see what I just said, even if he attacks Nagato, CT's sphere will pull the attack to itself and it will be destroyed.



> Actually The whole attack wont be pulled becasue In the invasion of pain pain pulled a nail off the wood with out pulling the whole thing



Nothing is stopping Madara from using jutsu while Nagato is pulling him.



> If he absorbs the sword what slash would be made?



And why would Madara get close to him if he's going to use slashes, he can create another one and he doesn't have only one sword.



> And why would he need to waste his time breaking susanoo he can just pull him out of it



Why do you assume Nagato will be the one who's attacking and like I've said nothing is stopping Madara from using jutsu while Nagato is pulling him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> On the contrary. The people who think Nagato can are speculating. And you like speculating quiet a lot yourself............



Actually those who say Nagato can absorb a Ninjutsu follow a fact established and continuously supported by the manga *and* databook. You have no actual basis for your "absorption speed" claim at all. The fact no character in the manga (even geniuses and strategists!) felt it was a legit counter to the Preta Path heavily dents your point.


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## Jagger (Feb 12, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Susanoo is useless when there is Preta Path.
> The "absorbing time" is something *no-one* in this thread as adequately proved.
> 
> So it really comes down to a Madara who can't use chakra attacks vs Nagato.


Except, you know, it's common sense.

For Nagato to absorb such quantity of chakra in mere seconds without Madara stopping him or doing anything? Don't you think it's a bit too speculative?

I don't need to do a very extensive research to realize Kirin can kill SM Naruto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 12, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Except, you know, it's common sense.
> 
> For Nagato to absorb such quantity of chakra in mere seconds without Madara stopping him or doing anything? Don't you think it's a bit too speculative?
> 
> I don't need to do a very extensive research to realize Kirin can kill SM Naruto.



Tell me, why has such "common sense" escaped people in the manga who know about the power and who have fought the power?

Since we saw the Preta Path absorb large quantities of chakra very quickly - before the users of the chakra could do anything - when it absorbed large chakra constructs such as:
- FRS
- V2 Cloak
- Naruto's Kyuubi Rasengan and the chakra arms around it
- Jinton
- Jinton + Susanoo
- Jiraiya's Katon+Fuuton+Oil combo

When all those massive chakra products have been absorbed and not a single person who knew about the Preta Path felt its absorption time could be exploited... Well that tells us this "common sense" you purport isn't sensible. Otherwise someone as smart as Shikaku - who had Jiraiya+Konoha's intel - would have advised people to exploit that limit rather than opt for CQC.

Kirin vs SM Naruto's tanking ability is very different to saying Preta Path can absorb a jutsu.


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## Larcher (Feb 12, 2014)

Nagato gets easily overwhelmed by Perfect Susano. Madara takes this.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 12, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Did you not see what I just said, even if he attacks Nagato, CT's sphere will pull the attack to itself and it will be destroyed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea i saw what you said and i said attacking Nagato would be useless what is he going to use A PS sword that would get absorbed?
Actually Preta is stopping him from using a justu when he is getting pulled any justu he uses would get absorbed and all Nagato has to do is just soul rip him
I never said Madara needed to get close to him its a slash coming from a sword he's going to absorb the sword
And like i said Preta path nullifies that so either way he pulls him out


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Feb 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> On the contrary. The people who think Nagato can are speculating. And you like speculating quiet a lot yourself............
> 
> 
> 
> Yes its common sense. Though comparing a normal person who is just casually reading the manga to a person who has superior IQ to Albert Einstein by at least 50 and is in the moment getting affected and sees it first hand is pointless. There is nothing that suggests that there isn't, BT and ST clearly fall under the same path which has a 5second cool down. Because Madara casually blasts him with his smoke bomb like Katon and blitzes him while he is burned and unaware of what's happening, or simply uses Genjutsu on him. lol if Madara has gone mental he will try to slash the ground? So doing the right thing makes you mental? No reason to slash Nagato when even Naruto knew that direct Ninjutsu is pointless. Evidence? Was there not enough already shown? The fact that he was not able to absorb Bee's human compacted chakra in an instant is more then enough proof that he would not be able to absorb PS, something that is litterally thousands times bigger then Bee fast enough.


If its real common sense why didn't Bee or Naruto think about it? (not so common)
Naruto did say his attacks are faster now Madara won't be blitzing anyone especially if u think a katon will work on Nagato.
Nagato is a sensor so he will be able to sense chakra build up so i doubt genjutsu would work he can fight with his eyes closed for all he cares and still know what is going on
Why would he slash the ground? that would be the easiest dodge for Nagato he can fly
Wont need to absorb it he can pull him out of it


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## Kyuuzen (Feb 12, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> If its real common sense why didn't Bee or Naruto think about it? (not so common)
> Naruto did say his attacks are faster now Madara won't be blitzing anyone especially if u think a katon will work on Nagato.
> Nagato is a sensor so he will be able to sense chakra build up so i doubt genjutsu would work he can fight with his eyes closed for all he cares and still know what is going on
> Why would he slash the ground? that would be the easiest dodge for Nagato he can fly
> Wont need to absorb it he can pull him out of it


Alright, you know what?  Just answer one question for me.


If Nagato would be able to beat Madara so easily, then how did he lose to Itachi?


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 12, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually those who say Nagato can absorb a Ninjutsu follow a fact established and continuously supported by the manga *and* databook. You have no actual basis for your "absorption speed" claim at all. The fact no character in the manga (even geniuses and strategists!) felt it was a legit counter to the Preta Path heavily dents your point.



Ya right. Sow me this "fact" of where Nagato can absorb PS near instantly, don't give me this BS. 



sanninme rikudo said:


> If its real common sense why didn't Bee or Naruto think about it? (not so common)
> Naruto did say his attacks are faster now Madara won't be blitzing anyone especially if u think a katon will work on Nagato.
> Nagato is a sensor so he will be able to sense chakra build up so i doubt genjutsu would work he can fight with his eyes closed for all he cares and still know what is going on
> Why would he slash the ground? that would be the easiest dodge for Nagato he can fly
> Wont need to absorb it he can pull him out of it



Because they where restricted by PIS........have you ever heard of it? Madara won't be blitzing anyone especially if u think a Katon will work on Nagato? You do realize that phrase does a not tie at all and makes no sense right? Are you 12? And yes, a Katon that is nearly instant and requires no hand seals would work on Nagato, if he is using BT to pull Madara towards him he will never see it coming. Genjutsu does not require the build up of chakra, and Nagatos Sensorary skills seem to be more of a activated effect. Why would he slash the ground? Because its the obvious thing to do if you see that the guy is absorbing your monster creation.........I don't even see why this is being debated, seeing as how Madara won't let him come close in the first place, and all it would take is 2 PS slashes to kill him. If he starts flying his movment speed gets restricted to the birds, he would get swatted down like a fly.


----------



## Kyuuzen (Feb 12, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> I dont wna start a fan war
> but he didnt lose to JUST itachi
> he lost to KCM Naruto Killer Bee & Itachi
> 2 perfect jinchuurikis, a edo MS user, while Nagato was crippled and controlled by someone who didnt know how to properly use Nagato
> no way did he just lose to Itachi



The point is even though he was a "sensor type" & can fight "with his eyes closed" and would apparantly absorb the PS sword which is several times larger than the Totsuka, he was still cut and absorbed while standing still.

How does someone like that beat Madara?


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Ya right. Sow me this "fact" of where Nagato can absorb PS near instantly, don't give me this BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Because they where restricted by PIS........have you ever heard of it? Madara won't be blitzing anyone especially if u think a Katon will work on Nagato? You do realize that phrase does a not tie at all and makes no sense right? Are you 12? And yes, a Katon that is nearly instant and requires no hand seals would work on Nagato, if he is using BT to pull Madara towards him he will never see it coming. Genjutsu does not require the build up of chakra, and Nagatos Sensorary skills seem to be more of a activated effect. Why would he slash the ground? Because its the obvious thing to do if you see that the guy is absorbing your monster creation.........I don't even see why this is being debated, seeing as how Madara won't let him come close in the first place, and all it would take is 2 PS slashes to kill him. If he starts flying his movment speed gets restricted to the birds, he would get swatted down like a fly.


Tbh you calling me 12 either means your a kid or your frustrated and are losing the argument (thats a weak thing to say bro). Katon won't work on him we been over this several times it will just get absorbed and im pretty sure while he's pulling him Nagato won't sit there and expect him to do nothing he would be prepared for an attack
What do you mean by activated effect? And what do you mean that it doesn't require the build up of chakra? who said that?
He can fly by him self and if the sword is getting absorbed im pretty sure he cant move it
Tbh i dont why this is getting debated either a BT out of PS and Madara is done thats his whole arsenal basically


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 12, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> Alright, you know what?  Just answer one question for me.
> 
> 
> If Nagato would be able to beat Madara so easily, then how did he lose to Itachi?


Maybe because he didn't have full mobility and was being controlled by Kabuto and i guarantee that Nagato knows how to utilize his moves alot better than kabuto


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## Kyuuzen (Feb 13, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> like i said he was controlled by someone like Kabuto who didnt know how to use him





sanninme rikudo said:


> Maybe because he didn't have full mobility and was being controlled by Kabuto and i guarantee that Nagato knows how to utilize his moves alot better than kabuto



Incorrect.  The Ressurcted shinobi are forced to fight and respond to attacks, but the only time where he fully controlled a shinobi directly was with Muu.  Every other Edo Tensei moved and responded to attacks exactly as they normally would.

So no, he got stabbed because he failed to dodge, block, or absorb the strike.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 13, 2014)

Keep the debate civil, please.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Tbh you calling me 12 either means your a kid or your frustrated and are losing the argument (thats a weak thing to say bro). Katon won't work on him we been over this several times it will just get absorbed and im pretty sure while he's pulling him Nagato won't sit there and expect him to do nothing he would be prepared for an attack
> What do you mean by activated effect? And what do you mean that it doesn't require the build up of chakra? who said that?
> He can fly by him self and if the sword is getting absorbed im pretty sure he cant move it
> Tbh i dont why this is getting debated either a BT out of PS and Madara is done thats his whole arsenal basically



lol no. I never said you where a 12 year old kid, however I did ask you if you where based on your writing style which should be more coherent for someone who is above that kind of age. And no, I'm far from a kid, and no I'm the one that is winning the argument. The people who have said Nagato wins have been pushed into a corner on like the 5th page of this thread and choose to keep on repeating the same points for some reason. It won't be absorbed if he does not expect it, not many people can use Jutsu without hand seals. And even if he does, it still acts as a smoke screen for Madara to either blitz Nagato or stab him with Susanoo, the same way Itachi did. What I mean is he has to attempt to sense, he does not have natural sensing abilities, and he would not attempt to sense if he does not know that Madara can use Jutsu without handseals. Genjutsu does not require the build up of chakra, go read how Genjutsu works. Nagato can't fly by himself LOL. And no, Nagato attempts to BT him out of Susanoo, Madara gets the job done easier. BT will only make things quicker for Madara. Madara uses PS, Madara slashes once, Nagato repels it with a strong ST, Madara slashes again, Nagato dies.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yea i saw what you said and i said attacking Nagato would be useless what is he going to use A PS sword that would get absorbed?
> Actually Preta is stopping him from using a justu when he is getting pulled any justu he uses would get absorbed and all Nagato has to do is just soul rip him
> I never said Madara needed to get close to him its a slash coming from a sword he's going to absorb the sword
> And like i said Preta path nullifies that so either way he pulls him out



You aren't very bright, you wouldn't understand me even if I drew you a picture. I won't waste my time on this.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 13, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> lol no. I never said you where a 12 year old kid, however I did ask you if you where based on your writing style which should be more coherent for someone who is above that kind of age. And no, I'm far from a kid, and no I'm the one that is winning the argument. The people who have said Nagato wins have been pushed into a corner on like the 5th page of this thread and choose to keep on repeating the same points for some reason. It won't be absorbed if he does not expect it, not many people can use Jutsu without hand seals. And even if he does, it still acts as a smoke screen for Madara to either blitz Nagato or stab him with Susanoo, the same way Itachi did. What I mean is he has to attempt to sense, he does not have natural sensing abilities, and he would not attempt to sense if he does not know that Madara can use Jutsu without handseals. Genjutsu does not require the build up of chakra, go read how Genjutsu works. Nagato can't fly by himself LOL. And no, Nagato attempts to BT him out of Susanoo, Madara gets the job done easier. BT will only make things quicker for Madara. Madara uses PS, Madara slashes once, Nagato repels it with a strong ST, Madara slashes again, Nagato dies.


Im just going to ignore that 12 year old comment moving on
You certainly havent won this argument the only argument you guys stated that you supposedly think pushed us in a corner was PS sword and GG and i have given a flawless reason as to why that wouldn't work but you guys refused to accept it and so you still put up that same useless argument
Doesn't Nagato already know a little about eye genjutsu since he was roaming around with Itachi and he has animals, to see there vision and he has Mastered Yin release so im sure with all this being said genjutsu won't work. Im sure if Nagato sees Madara's techniques he's going to be very cautious especially if he finds out Madara is an Uchiha he would most likely sense chakra often
And if i doesn't requre the build up of chakra then why is it that when Itachi used Koto he got a wierd feeling?
Nagato cant fly by himself? that comment alone makes me want to stop replying he BT's him then he can just pull a meteorite down and crush him he won't even need him to get close.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 13, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> Incorrect.  The Ressurcted shinobi are forced to fight and respond to attacks, but the only time where he fully controlled a shinobi directly was with Muu.  Every other Edo Tensei moved and responded to attacks exactly as they normally would.
> 
> So no, he got stabbed because he failed to dodge, block, or absorb the strike.


If they are forced to respond to attacks why didn't he respond to the Totsuka?


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> You aren't very bright, you wouldn't understand me even if I drew you a picture. I won't waste my time on this.


Maybe its not me who isn't bright probably due to the way you are explaining it if you actually understand your own comments you'd see the nonsense your writing aswell


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Maybe its not me who isn't bright probably due to the way you are explaining it if you actually understand your own comments you'd see the nonsense your writing aswell



I won't explain something 5 times, if you don't get it it's your problem not mine.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I won't explain something 5 times, if you don't get it it's your problem not mine.


i have no problem only problem i see here are your explaining skills


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> i have no problem only problem i see here are your explaining skills



Or it's simply you being a delusional fanboy or lacking intelligence . You think that Itachi is stronger than EMS Madara.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Or it's simply you being a delusional fanboy or lacking intelligence . You think that Itachi is stronger than EMS Madara.


Well of course he can Madara can't get passed Yata can get beat with Totsuka and will succumb to Koto if you think he can get passed all these then we know who the true fanboy is
Back to this thread. Ive given you several facts that you could not counter and you say im the one lacking intelligence? Just because you can't comprehend correctly and don't have very good explaining skills doesn't mean im the non intellectual one


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Well of course he can Madara can't get passed Yata can get beat with Totsuka and will succumb to Koto if you think he can get passed all these then we know who the true fanboy is
> Back to this thread. Ive given you several facts that you could not counter and you say im the one lacking intelligence? Just because you can't comprehend correctly and don't have very good explaining skills doesn't mean im the non intellectual one


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## Edo Madara (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> He would need CST for that which means he wouldn't be able to use ST for a long time afterwards and I don't see what good would making PS lose balance/fall do.



You understimated ST powers, it defeated 3 boss summons and throw them very far in one shot.

what good would making PS lose balance/fall do? seriously, you're asking this question? If I make you losing your balance and fall into the ground you will be vulnerable to another attack from me, fiction or not, it still applied.



> He can destroy CT's sphere with PS slashes, Yasaka Magatama, fire techniques...



It took the combined power of FRS, Bijuudama and Magatama to destroyed the sphere. The only technique in Madara arsenal that can destroy it is probably PS slashes.



> PS is enormous so it will take a lot of time to absorb it and what makes you think Madara would just let him do it.



and what makes you think Nagato will just stand around letting Madara touched him? Unlike his Pain, Nagato can do more than one jutsu at once. He can counter Madara with any weapons from robo path, ST of deva, or rip soul of human path, 



> you're talking as if Hashirama is a weakling.



I'm talking about how everyone overrated ems Madara's strength, they're acted like Hashirama is the only one who can defeated him.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> You understimated ST powers, it defeated 3 boss summons and throw them very far in one shot.
> 
> what good would making PS lose balance/fall do? seriously, you're asking this question? If I make you losing your balance and fall into the ground you will be vulnerable to another attack from me, fiction or not, it still applied.



Yeah, he falls down, but he still has PS on so Nagato still wouldn't be able to do anything.



> It took the combined power of FRS, Bijuudama and Magatama to destroyed the sphere. The only technique in Madara arsenal that can destroy it is probably PS slashes.


 
We don't know how much power it takes to destroy that sphere. A Bijūdama could have been enough to destroy it, but like us they didn't know how much it takes to destroy it so they used their strongest attacks because they didn't want to risk losing their lives. I'm pretty sure the techniques I listed are enough to destroy it.



> and what makes you think Nagato will just stand around letting Madara touched him? Unlike his Pain, Nagato can do more than one jutsu at once. He can counter Madara with any weapons from robo path, ST of deva, or rip soul of human path,



Why would Madara need to get close to attack him?



> I'm talking about how everyone overrated ems Madara's strength, they're acted like Hashirama is the only one who can defeated him.



Before Obito became the Jūbi's jinchūriki, Hashirama most likely was the only one who could certainly defeat him, since then there are more people who are around the same level or stronger like BSM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, BM Minato and Jūbito.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Yeah, he falls down, but he still has PS on so Nagato still wouldn't be able to do anything.



After PS falls, Nagato then process to used CT or absorbing jutsu against it.




> Why would Madara need to get close to attack him?



What he can do to stop Nagato. Katon? get absorbed, projectile weapons? ST and robo path deal with it.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> After PS falls, Nagato then process to used CT or absorbing jutsu against it.



Madara can simply destroy the sphere if Nagato uses CT, that's why I don't see what CST could change, it will just push Madara and he will lose balance, but like we've seen in Nagato's fight against Itachi, Naruto and Killer Bee, CT can't crush its opponents instantly so Madara will have time to do something.



> What he can do to stop Nagato. Katon? get absorbed, projectile weapons? ST and robo path deal with it.



He can swing PS's sword.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> He can swing PS's sword.



Get absorbed, and if Nagato used ST to made PS losing balance / fall beforehand, PS can't swing it's sword since it's in vulnerable position.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Ya right. Sow me this "fact" of where Nagato can absorb PS near instantly, don't give me this BS.



The the Preta Path limitation "fact" you claim is BS because no genius or strategist who actually fought the power. In other words by failing to acknowledge this you're saying you know better than the manga's established facts.

Instantly, probably not. But Madara's not going to be able to do anything once it is being absorbed. Just like *everyone* who had their jutsu absorbed couldn't do anything.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> Get absorbed, and if Nagato used ST to made PS losing balance / fall beforehand, PS can't swing it's sword since it's in vulnerable position.



 isn't ninjutsu.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 13, 2014)

Man, Prime Nagato not even at his full power since summon is banned.



Authoritah said:


> isn't ninjutsu.





> If Nagato used ST to made PS losing balance / fall beforehand, PS can't swing it's sword since it's in vulnerable position.



To convince you I give you some example: How can you swing your sword if you fall to the ground or losing balance, especially against tiny opponent.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> If Nagato used ST to made PS losing balance / fall beforehand, PS can't swing it's sword since it's in vulnerable position.



Why would he be able to get up  and Madara won't be the one falling just his PS so it will be even easier for him to get up.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Why would he be able to get up  and Madara won't be the one falling just his PS so it will be even easier for him to get up.



PS is massive, like giant robot, it won't back on it's feet that quick.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> PS is massive, like giant robot, it won't back on it's feet that quick.



Madara doesn't need physical strength to make PS get up, it's an eye technique.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Madara doesn't need physical strength to make PS get up, it's an eye technique.



So you think his magical eyes will just make PS instantly standing again like nothing ever happened.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> So you think his magical eyes will just make PS instantly standing again like nothing happened.



Not instantly like Hiraishin, but in a similar fashion Bee did it.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Not instantly like Hiraishin, but in a similar fashion Bee did it.



Didn't I say that PS is very big thing before.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> Didn't I say that PS is very big thing before.



We're running around in circles, It doesn't matter how big it is because Madara won't be using his physical strength to get up. Even if Madara is on the ground and he stays there for like 5 seconds, by the time Nagato gets there and activates Preta Path, he'll manage to absorb a bit of its chakra, but Madara can simply recreate it and will already be up. This is all speculative and depends on the distance CST would create when it pushes Madara, it also depends on whether Nagato would use CST before Madara swings his PS sword, however it happens I just don't see Nagato being above Madara.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2014)

So Madara will keep wasting chakra whilst Nagato keeps gaining chakra*. O.o



*Technically more mental and physical energies since the Path reverses the chakra flow process.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So Madara will keep wasting chakra whilst Nagato keeps gaining chakra*. O.o
> 
> 
> 
> *Technically more mental and physical energies since the Path reverses the chakra flow process.



Like I've said, it's all speculative, we don't even know whether Nagato would make it in time before Madara gets up.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Like I've said, it's all speculative, we don't even know whether Nagato would make it in time before Madara gets up.



Then why not consider both scenarios? One for if Nagato makes it in time, another in the event he doesn't.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Then why not consider both scenarios? One for if Nagato makes it in time, another in the event he doesn't.



I have and already explained it to Edo Madara. If he makes it in time he won't be able to absorb PS instantly because  either. Madara will get up, get away from him, recreate PS and defeat him.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 13, 2014)

As always, Madara pulps him in a single swing with PS.

Or, if Nagato manages to deflect it with Shinra Tensei, then it takes two swings.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I have and already explained it to Edo Madara. If he makes it in time he won't be able to absorb PS instantly because  either. Madara will get up, get away from him, recreate PS and defeat him.



Doesn't this assume that Nagato will stand still to absorb the jutsu? Why wouldn't he make his way to Madara whilst having the Preta barrier up?

Bee is a very fast shinobi, yet he couldn't just simply "get away" whilst the chakra was being absorbed. No-one is claiming instant. 

If Madara recreates PS, then Nagato can just set himself up to absorb it again.

Each time that happens Madara will get more exhausted and Nagato will not be because of the Preta Path.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Doesn't this assume that Nagato will stand still to absorb the jutsu? Why wouldn't he make his way to Madara whilst having the Preta barrier up?



When has he show the ability to move and use Preta Path at the same time?



> Bee is a very fast shinobi, yet he couldn't just simply "get away" whilst the chakra was being absorbed. No-one is claiming instant.



He noticed that his chakra was being absorbed when about 70% of his v2 cloak was alread sucked.



> If Madara recreates PS, then Nagato can just set himself up to absorb it again.
> 
> Each time that happens Madara will get more exhausted and Nagato will not be because of the Preta Path.



I said he gets away from him first and then recreates it.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> When has he show the ability to move and use Preta Path at the same time?



By this logic no-one can use the Asura Path's multiple arms and move at the same time. 



> He noticed that his chakra was being absorbed when about 70% of his v2 cloak was alread sucked.



Noticing only when more than half the shroud was absorbed is still a big thing to note.



> I said he gets away from him first and then recreates it.



Crippled, emaciated Nagato outpaced his own Shinra Tensei and dodged Bee's attack. He also mastered mainstream Ninjutsu (which includes the Shunshin no jutsu), which has implications for speed. Bearing in mind Nagato isn't crippled or emaciated ITT.


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## Dominus (Feb 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> By this logic no-one can use the Asura Path's multiple arms and move at the same time.



He has only used it in that way, why would that change now and I don't see how would in this situation using Preta Path while moving be any different from when he's not moving.



> Noticing only when more than half the shroud was absorbed is still a big thing to note.



PS is a bigger chakra construct and Bee didn't know about Preta Path.



> Crippled, emaciated Nagato outpaced his own Shinra Tensei and dodged Bee's attack. He also mastered mainstream Ninjutsu (which includes the Shunshin no jutsu), which has implications for speed. Bearing in mind Nagato isn't crippled or emaciated ITT.



How does that change the fact that Madara is faster and can get away.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 13, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> He has only used it in that way, why would that change now and I don't see how would in this situation using Preta Path while moving be any different from when he's not moving.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This whole Preta debate isn't even needed because Nagato doesn't even need to absorb all of PS he can just absorb the legs and watch it collapse then what is Madara going to do rebuild it again if you are saying PS is a crapload of chakra then Madara using it more than twice when he's alive and doesn't have Hashi's cells isn't likely at all


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Im just going to ignore that 12 year old comment moving on
> You certainly havent won this argument the only argument you guys stated that you supposedly think pushed us in a corner was PS sword and GG and i have given a flawless reason as to why that wouldn't work but you guys refused to accept it and so you still put up that same useless argument
> Doesn't Nagato already know a little about eye genjutsu since he was roaming around with Itachi and he has animals, to see there vision and he has Mastered Yin release so im sure with all this being said genjutsu won't work. Im sure if Nagato sees Madara's techniques he's going to be very cautious especially if he finds out Madara is an Uchiha he would most likely sense chakra often
> And if i doesn't requre the build up of chakra then why is it that when Itachi used Koto he got a wierd feeling?
> Nagato cant fly by himself? that comment alone makes me want to stop replying he BT's him then he can just pull a meteorite down and crush him he won't even need him to get close.



Flawless? Its hardly flawless if this has been going on for this long, and its basically a 20 V 3. Wether he knows a little about Sharingan Genjutsu is yet to be confirmed, wether he can incorporate a fighting style specifically to counter Genjutsu is out of our knowledge. Nagato will not expect a sealless Katon when using BT. Itachi never got a weird feeling, the build up was for Ametarasu. Where has Nagwto shown to fly by himself? Was it when he jumped in the air and used CST? Because in case you did not know that was a jump. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The the Preta Path limitation "fact" you claim is BS because no genius or strategist who actually fought the power. In other words by failing to acknowledge this you're saying you know better than the manga's established facts.
> 
> Instantly, probably not. But Madara's not going to be able to do anything once it is being absorbed. Just like *everyone* who had their jutsu absorbed couldn't do anything.



Instantly, for sure not. Quickly, depends on what your definition of quick is. However Madara will defenetally have enough time to swing his PS sword and kill Nagato.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Feb 13, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Flawless? Its hardly flawless if this has been going on for this long, and its basically a 20 V 3. Wether he knows a little about Sharingan Genjutsu is yet to be confirmed, wether he can incorporate a fighting style specifically to counter Genjutsu is out of our knowledge. Nagato will not expect a sealless Katon when using BT. Itachi never got a weird feeling, the build up was for Ametarasu. Where has Nagwto shown to fly by himself? Was it when he jumped in the air and used CST? Because in case you did not know that was a jump.
> 
> 
> 
> Instantly, for sure not. Quickly, depends on what your definition of quick is. However Madara will defenetally have enough time to swing his PS sword and kill Nagato.


If someone can counter that argument then yea its not flawless but so far seems pretty flawless to me
He has summonings that he can see from there view.
Like i said once Nagato sees Madara's moveset he's bound to be cautious and use his sensing more often
If Nagato was to BT him what is stopping him from just pulling a meteorite down right when he BT's him and crush him
Itachi never got that wierd feeling Nagato did and know it was when he used Koto
He must have a massive amount of hang time he used when he supposedly jumped into the air and hang time that long is impossible


----------



## Kyuuzen (Feb 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> If they are forced to respond to attacks why didn't he respond to the Totsuka?



Now you're asking the right questions.  Why didn't Nagato respond to the Totsuka?  Because he COULDN'T.  He was not fast enough.  Just like he isn't fast enough to respond to Madara.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Feb 13, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> Now you're asking the right questions.  Why didn't Nagato respond to the Totsuka?  Because he COULDN'T.  He was not fast enough.  Just like he isn't fast enough to respond to Madara.


Lol and thats what im saying he couldn't dodge because he wasn't fully mobile!


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Feb 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> If someone can counter that argument then yea its not flawless but so far seems pretty flawless to me
> He has summonings that he can see from there view.
> Like i said once Nagato sees Madara's moveset he's bound to be cautious and use his sensing more often
> If Nagato was to BT him what is stopping him from just pulling a meteorite down right when he BT's him and crush him
> ...



No, nearly everyone has countered *every * argument that you Nagato fans have made. There is probably a good 10 people who have one after the other, attempted to stick it in your thick heads but you guys simply continue on. And what makes you think Madara will spit out his move set from the get-go? Nagato's arsenal has a lot less variety so the chances are that Nagato dishes out everything he has before Madara does. What's stopping Madara from using Susanoo to block? And if Susanoo is already in use what's stopping Susanoo from grabbing Madara before he goes any further? And since when did Nagato start using Meteors every time he uses BT? And what makes you think that the meteor will get there so fast? And No, Nagato in fact did NOT know what was going on, he was confused that Itachi did not use Ametarasu. Sorry I do not know what "hang time" is.........if you mean Deva going in the air, then there was hardly any time, he said something short and used CST, the pressure of CST from both sides caused him to remain stationary in the air.


----------



## Kyuuzen (Feb 14, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Lol and thats what im saying he couldn't dodge because he wasn't fully mobile!



Yes, he was.  He literally was not good enough to evade, and not because Kabuto was restricting him, and not because he wasn't at full mobility.  He got stabbed because HE.  IS NOT.  FAST.  ENOUGH.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I have and already explained it to Edo Madara. If he makes it in time he won't be able to absorb PS instantly because  either. Madara will get up, get away from him, recreate PS and defeat him.



Let's see, so Madara cancelled PS while Nagato absorbed it,  get away from him to create more distances and re-created PS again.

In this battle, Nagato not crippled, he can move right?  So he won't just standing around letting Madara do his thing, he will chase Madara, attacking him with robo path projectiles (missiles and stuff) or spamming ST on him.

Madara can't created PS in instant either, it took time to stabilize it and stuff, and Nagato will keep distracting him with his Rinnegan arsenals. Like the other guy said, Madara will keep losing chakra in this battle, it just matter of time until he no longer have enough chakra to create PS.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> Let's see, so Madara cancelled PS while Nagato absorbed it,  get away from him to create more distances and re-created PS again.
> 
> In this battle, Nagato not crippled, he can move right?  So he won't just standing around letting Madara do his thing, he will chase Madara, attacking him with robo path projectiles (missiles and stuff) or spamming ST on him.
> 
> Madara can't created PS in instant either, it took time to stabilize it and stuff, and Nagato will keep distracting him with his Rinnegan arsenals. Like the other guy said, Madara will keep losing chakra in this battle, it just matter of time until he no longer have enough chakra to create PS.



Madara fought Hashirama for a full day, so Nagato stealing some chakra from him won't be a problem for Madara. He has shown better speed feats than Nagato and he doesn't even need to wait for Nagato to absorb the entire PS, he can just deactivate it, kick Nagato like he kicked SM Naruto and like Bee kicked Nagato and then use his speed to get away. Madara is a very experienced and intelligent, he can certainly find a way to use PS again.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Madara fought Hashirama for a full day, so Nagato stealing some chakra from him won't be a problem for Madara. He has shown better speed feats than Nagato and he doesn't even need to wait for Nagato to absorb the entire PS, he can just deactivate it, kick Nagato like he kicked SM Naruto and like Bee kicked Nagato and then use his speed to get away. Madara is a very experienced and intelligent, he can certainly find a way to use PS again.



Madara is not the only experienced and intelligent one in this fight, I can see you run out of argument when you said Madara "will find a way"

Nagato is different kind of opponent than Hashirama, Hashirama using brute force whereas Nagato can draining his opponent jutsu, and massive chakra construct like PS is like "all you can eat buffet" for Nagato. 

With the combo of ST and Preta, Nagato will keep draining and weakening PS whereas Madara will keep pumping chakra to repaired it.  Madara won't survive all day against Nagato.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> Madara is not the only experienced and intelligent one in this fight, I can see you run out of argument when you said Madara "will find a way"
> 
> Nagato is different kind of opponent than Hashirama, Hashirama using brute force whereas Nagato can draining his opponent jutsu, and massive chakra construct like PS is like "all you can eat buffet" for Nagato.
> 
> With the combo of ST and Preta, Nagato will keep draining and weakening PS whereas Madara will keep pumping chakra to repaired it.  Madara won't survive all day against Nagato.



Did you not see what I just wrote, he doesn't need to give his chakra to Nagato, he can simply deactivate PS,  like when , then use his superior speed to get away and activate PS again.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Did you not see what I just wrote, he doesn't need to give his chakra to Nagato, he can simply deactivate PS,  like when , then use his superior speed to get away and activate PS again.



You realize Madara using SM in those panels right? SM enhanced strength, speed, and perceptions.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> You realize Madara using SM in those panels right? SM enhanced strength, speed, and perceptions.



[sp=No, he isn't][/sp]


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> [sp=No, he isn't][/sp]



That's still enhanced Madara with hashirama dna besides Nagato can use ST.


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 14, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> Yes, he was.  He literally was not good enough to evade, and not because Kabuto was restricting him, and not because he wasn't at full mobility.  He got stabbed because HE.  IS NOT.  FAST.  ENOUGH.



His vision was clouded and Kabuto had no idea of his sensing powers. Not because he wasn't fast enough, despite being cripple. Prime Nagato would dodge Totsuka without much problems. The same Nagato that fought Itachi would with Asura's rocket boost.

The reason he was stabbed lies in Kabuto's cockyness and lack of knowledge, plus a probably worse way of fighting, not in Nagato


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> That's still enhanced Madara with hashirama dna besides Nagato can use ST.



Since when do Hashirama's cells increase speed, anyway we are talking about a scenario in which Nagato used CST, he won't be able to use ST again so quickly.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Since when do Hashirama's cells increase speed, anyway we are talking about a scenario in which Nagato used CST, he won't be able to use ST again so quickly.



You're understimated Prime Nagato again, I said it before that Pain's ST can defeated 3 boss summons and pushed them very far in one shot while Nagato's version is obviously more powerful, it enough to make PS losing balance and fall to the ground.

Here, if you don't believe me.


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> You're understimated Prime Nagato again, I said it before that Pain's ST can defeated 3 boss summons and pushed them very far in one shot while Nagato's version is obviously more powerful, it enough to make PS losing balance and fall to the ground.
> 
> Here, if you don't believe me.
> 
> ...



I'm not talking about power, I'm talking about the interval when ST is unusable after being used.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2014)

6/6 Deva path with all of nagato's power funneled into had it's point-blank ST repelled by Naruto's KN6 form.
inmense
Naruto mind you only had 1/2 of the Kyuubi.

Madara's Perfect Susanoo is large enough to completely coat undiluted 100% Kyuubi in armor. It is also much physically stronger than KN6 Naruto w/ only 1/2 Kyuubi.

It's doubtful anything short of CST would topple Madara's PS. Kn6, an ant compared to PS, not even the size of PS's boot, repelled fully powered Deva.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I'm not talking about power, I'm talking about the interval when ST is unusable after being used.



Nagato used ST, PS fall to the ground, Nagato then process to absorb it, Madara cancelled PS, run away to make PS again while Nagato will chase him and attack him . All of that took more than 5 seconds.

5 seconds are very very short time you know, even for these super ninja.




Lawrence777 said:


> 6/6 Deva path with all of nagato's power funneled into had it's point-blank ST repelled by Naruto's KN6 form.
> inmense
> Naruto mind you only had 1/2 of the Kyuubi.
> 
> ...



Size doesn't matter, Read my post in previous page.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> 6/6 Deva path with all of nagato's power funneled into had it's point-blank ST repelled by Naruto's KN6 form.
> inmense
> Naruto mind you only had 1/2 of the Kyuubi.
> 
> ...



Size doesn't matter, Read my post in previous page.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> Nagato used ST, PS fall to the ground, Nagato then process to absorb it, Madara cancelled PS, run away to make PS again while Nagato will chase him and attack him . All of that took more 5 seconds.
> 
> 5 seconds are very very short time you know, even for these super ninja.



[sp=The interval isn't always five seconds][/sp]


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2014)

Ofcourse size matters.
If shinra tensei were used on the earth, it would not move, because its size and inertia are huge.

Something as massive as Madara's perfect Susanoo is going to be much harder to move than something smaller.

Madara's susanoo is so heavy it stepping forward made the ground the kage were standing on tremble.

Not only would ST have to overcome the weight of PS, 
it would have to overcome the strength of PS. PS's strength is capable of slicing apart mountain ranges.

Basically, I dont think anyone believes ST would work of Kurama.
PS is bigger than Kurama and heavier than Kurama and is physically stronger than Kurama. It completely covered Kurama's body.

1/2 of Kurama's 6/9th form resisted fully powered deva. I'm interested to hear how any ST bar CST will topple it.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> [sp=The interval isn't always five seconds][/sp]



5-10 secs or even more are enough time for all the things that I said before to happened, This is not speedblitz fight like Minato vs A / Obito. And I said again and again, you understimated Nagato's capabilities and overstimated Madara's. Your fanboyism is showing.


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 14, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Basically, I dont think anyone believes ST would work of Kurama.
> PS is bigger than Kurama and heavier than Kurama and is physically stronger than Kurama. It completely covered Kurama's body.
> 
> 1/2 of Kurama's 6/9th form resisted fully powered deva. I'm interested to hear how any ST bar CST will topple it.



Six tailed Naruto never resisted a full powered Shinra Tensei, he resisted a basic one launched by an overconfident Deva path. Actually, the one he used on the summons was notably stronger than the one he used on Kyuubi.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> 5-10 secs or even more are enough time for all the things that I said before to happened, This is not speedblitz fight like Minato vs A / Obito. And I said again and again, you understimated Nagato's capabilities and overstimated Madara's. Your fanboyism is showing.



We are talking about CST (the ST he used to destroy the village), did you not see how long he had to wait to use it again?


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2014)

> Six tailed Naruto never resisted a full powered Shinra Tensei, he resisted a basic one launched by an overconfident Deva path. Actually, the one he used on the summons was notably stronger than the one he used on Kyuubi.


Two things:

The one he used on KN6 was sustained and he had the power to increase it, just like the power of BT's pull can be increased mid way through the jutsu.

The one he used on the toads was done in an aoe manner. The one he used on KN6 Naruto was fully focused on only KN6 Naruto.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> We are talking about CST (the ST he used to destroy the village), did you not see how long he had to wait to use it again?



And I said it again for million times, you understimated Prime Nagato, his ST is enough to made PS losing balance / fall.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2014)

^Can you show some of the evidence for why you believe Prime Nagato's generic ST would be able to topple something larger than Kurama?


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Two things:
> 
> The one he used on KN6 was sustained and he had the power to increase it, just like the power of BT's pull can be increased mid way.
> 
> The one he used on the toads was done in an aoe manner. The one he used on KN6 Naruto was fully focused on only KN6 Naruto.



Nagato's ST is stronger than Pain. i think PS is roughly equal in powers to 50% Kyuubi regardless it's size, people reliant on size so much when it rarely matter in shonen like this.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> And I said it again for million times, you understimated Prime Nagato, his ST is enough to made PS losing balance / fall.



I'm saying that he won't be able to use ST for a long time after he uses CST, after he gets to Madara, after Madara deactivates PS, after he kicks him, after he gets away from him, because of the interval. DO YOU GET WHAT I AM SAYING NOW?

Man, you're worse than sanninme rikudo.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2014)

> Nagato's ST is stronger than Pain.* i think PS is roughly equal in powers to 50% Kyuubi regardless it's size*, people reliant on size so much when it rarely matter in shonen like this.


Nagato ST is stronger than Pain, whose ST is comparable to 50% KN6, which PS is stronger than.
Nagato's ST being stronger than Pains =/= it being able to topple PS or Kurama. It just means it can do what whatever Pain could do.

Can you please prove the bolded statement.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

This is not speedblitz fight, Authoriah, They're all not do things at speed of light that everything happened in just mere seconds. Read my post again.




Edo Madara said:


> Nagato used ST, PS fall to the ground, Nagato then process to absorb it, Madara cancelled PS, run away to make PS again while Nagato will chase him and attack him . All of that took more than 5 seconds.
> 
> 5 seconds are very very short time you know, even for these super ninja.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2014)

In terms of speed, this is how many times Madara can manifest a PS sword in a time period of less than 5 seconds.
inmense

He could literally form one, have it occupy preta, form another, have it blocked by ST, then form a third, and have it kill nagato with it's swing's shockwave.

edit: Ofcourse, since I'm underplaying the rate at which he can manifest PS swords, if he needs to he can make 5 and have them occupy preta if 1 isnt already enough. Then he uses the 6th and 7th swords to shock-wave blast kill nagato.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> This is not speedblitz fight, Authoriah, They're all not move at speed of light that everything happened in just mere seconds. Read my post again.



What I said won't happen in a matter of seconds but it will happen in a minute, Nagato still won't be able to use ST. Four chapters have passed before he could use ST again, so Madara will manage to activate PS again and defeat Nagato.

We've been discussing only one scenario. Madara could swing his sword before Nagato even uses CST.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> What I said won't happen in a matter of seconds but it will happen in a minute, Nagato still won't be able to use ST.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I said it again and again, Nagato's ST is stronger than Pain, I'm sure it took less than a minute interval to use ST against PS, there will be enough time for Nagato to use it again besides Madara have no knowledge and he will act cooky as usual.

PS slash can be blocked by ST, stop understimating Nagato.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> I said it again and again, Nagato's ST is stronger than Pain, I'm sure it took less than a minute interval to use ST against PS, there will be enough time for Nagato to use it again besides Madara have no knowledge and he will act cooky as usual.
> 
> PS slash can be blocked by ST, stop understimating Nagato.



I'm not underestimating him. We just have different opinions, you think something will happen, but I don't.

Yes PS slash can be blocked by ST, then Madara uses another one with his other sword and Nagato will be defeated.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I'm not underestimating him. We just have different opinions, you think something will happen, but I don't.
> 
> Yes PS slash can be blocked by ST, then Madara uses another one with his other sword and Nagato will be defeated.



Which sword? his regular sword? it can be blocked by asura / robot path.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> Which sword? his regular sword? it can be blocked by asura / robot path.



I'm talking about his PS swords.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I'm talking about his PS swords.



Madara have no knowledge and going by IC he won't pull PS at the start of the fight.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> Madara have no knowledge and going by IC he won't pull PS at the start of the fight.



Nagato won't use CST at start of the battle either. I think that Madara would use PS quickly after seeing that it's the best and most likely the only way he can win this, I don't see him being very cocky after he sees that Nagato has the Rinnegan.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Nagato won't use CST at start of the battle either. I think that Madara would use PS quickly after seeing that it's the best and most likely the only way he can win this, I don't see him being very cocky after he sees that Nagato has the Rinnegan.



ST is enough, but ofc you doubted that.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> ST is enough, but ofc you doubted that.



It didn't do anything to Bee and it didn't do anything to Kakashi, by the time he decides to use CST, Madara will decide to use PS.


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 14, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Two things:
> 
> The one he used on KN6 was sustained and he had the power to increase it, just like the power of BT's pull can be increased mid way through the jutsu.
> 
> ...



It was omnidirectonal, yes. But it was more powerful if you compare both.

Boss sized

Kyuubi's sized.

Both shows dust in the floor due to the force the attack creates before Deva used more power. However, Deva got that full power ST at himself and he wasn't sent flying as far as the summons, nor was too much damaged like the frogs.

That might mean he could be more durable than them too, but i don't think that.

But Deva still didn't use his strongest ST if we compare it with the one he used on the village.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> It didn't do anything to Bee and it didn't do anything to Kakashi, by the time he decides to use CST, Madara will decide to use PS.



You know they're protected by plot, right? Pain's ST can defeated 3 boss summons and push them far away. Nagato's version is stronger than that.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> You know they're protected by plot, right? Pain's ST can defeated 3 boss summons and push them far away. Nagato's version is stronger than that.



He won't use a ST as strong as the one he used on the toads at the beginning of their battle. I see him using it when Madara starts using the first stages of Susanoo, so it wouldn't do much. We've seen Bee getting hit by Nagato's version and getting up like nothing happened.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> He won't use a ST as strong as the one he used on the toads at the beginning of their battle. I see him using it when Madara starts using the first stages of Susanoo, so it wouldn't do much. We've seen Bee getting hit by Nagato's version and getting up like nothing happened.



You get what I'm saying? They're protected by plot, the same plot that made Hinata survived ST.
The ST he used on toads are the same ST with 5 secs interval.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> You get what I'm saying? They're protected by plot, the same plot that made Hinata survived ST.
> The ST he used on toads are the same ST with 5 secs interval.



So I'm supposed to ignore the fact that a regular ST never killed anyone and I don't see why couldn't Madara just use Susanoo to protect himself.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2014)

@ Lostself


> It was omnidirectonal, yes. But it was more powerful if you compare both.
> 
> Boss sized
> 
> ...


Just eyeballing it the KN6 ST _initially_ didn't seem to have been as strong as the one used on the toads to be fair.

However, could Deva not raise the push being exerted, midway through the shinra tensei, once he realized that KN6 was too powerful? Towards the latter half of the ST, the force exerted *increased* and the floor below both KN6 and Deva started to crumble. KN6 still overpowered him despite the power of the push increasing.

Additionally, the ST used by Deva against KN6 was one of his highest end ones. 6/6th Deva, with all power focused into him, should be nearly as powerful as Nagato using it himself. Nagato shouldn't be absurdly far away from him, like twice or thrice as strong.

The difference between the shinra tensei power exerted by Nagato and 6/6 Deva
is likely smaller than the difference in size, mass, and strength of 1/2 6/9th  Kyuubi and 100% Kyuubi. 

PS is bigger than 100% Kyuubi by virtue of being able to cover it. It also has better physical strength feats.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> So I'm supposed to ignore the fact that a regular ST never killed anyone and I don't see why couldn't Madara just use Susanoo to protect himself.



We're talking about the jutsu feats and capabilities not how many people killed by it which obviously depend on plot of this manga. If that's the case, I can use your statement against you: How many people killed by Susanoo? See, that doesn't have to do with our discussion.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 14, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> We're talking about the jutsu feats and capabilities not how many people killed by it which obviously depend on plot of this manga. If that's the case, I can use your statement against you: How many people killed by Susanoo? See, that doesn't have to do with our discussion.



PS was used only against Hashirama and the Gokage.  while the Gokage were left in  state to die, he didn't even bother finishing them off and we don't know how he did it, he probably didn't even use PS swings to kill them because all of them would be cut in half. We've never seen PS actually hitting someone, but since it can casually slice mountains it can kill people, we've seen people getting hit by ST a lot of times, but they didn't die.


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 14, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> @ Lostself
> 
> Just eyeballing it the KN6 ST _initially_ didn't seem to have been as strong as the one used on the toads to be fair.
> 
> However, could Deva not raise the push being exerted, midway through the shinra tensei, once he realized that KN6 was too powerful? Towards the latter half of the ST, the force exerted *increased* and the floor below both KN6 and Deva started to crumble. KN6 still overpowered him despite the power of the push increasing.



I don't think he could've raised the force of the jutsu if he has an interval between uses. It's like a shot, otherwise he would've ended up overpowering the Kyuubi with the highest power of ST. Even if he did, because it how it looks like, Kyuubi could've sent the force towards him before he could exert enough power in ST.

The main problem with that ST being stronger than the one he used on the summons is that Deva path got hit with it and was unscathed. He might be more durable than the frogs, but not that much more.



> Additionally, the ST used by Deva against KN6 was one of his highest end ones. 6/6th Deva, with all power focused into him, should be nearly as powerful as Nagato using it himself. Nagato shouldn't be absurdly far away from him, like twice or thrice as strong.



Nagato, with a fake Rinnegan was said to have his powers in another level than his paths, if we use Son Goku's surprise that Madara could summon Gedo Mazo with a fake Rinnegan while Deva was summoning it without troubles... Then we can be sure that Prime Nagato's attacks would be cannonically stronger than the Deva Path, wich is weaker than Edo Nagato, who had a fake Rinnegan.

His _Shinra Tensei_ would be absurdly powerful.



> The difference between the shinra tensei power exerted by Nagato and 6/6 Deva
> is likely smaller than the difference in size, mass, and strength of 1/2 6/9th  Kyuubi and 100% Kyuubi.



If we use the example above. Deva Path with a real Rinnegan summoning Gedo Mazo, being weaker than Edo Nagato, who had a fake Rinnegan (Twisted logic, because if Nagato couldn't summon GM then he should be weaker than Deva, but it was stated he wasn't) was said to be stronger, then a Prime Nagato's high end _Shinra Tensei_'s difference from the non village busting a tired Deva path used would be bigger than the difference in strenght that full Kyuubi had with KN6.

To put it more simple:

Deva path is weaker than Edo Nagato.
Edo Nagato is stronger than Deva path by a whole new level
Living - Prime Nagato would be canonically stronger than Edo Nagato, who is stronger than Deva path.

So, we are comparing a _Shinra Tensei_ from Deva path with a _CST_ from Prime nagato.

If we count all those powerups that Nagato gets, it's not a crazy thing to assume that Prime Nagato can take down PS with his stronger version of _Shinra Tensei_. Plus, his absorbing techniques would still be pretty fast.



> PS is bigger than 100% Kyuubi by virtue of being able to cover it. It also has better physical strength feats.



I agree with this.

*Edit:* By taking down i mean making it fall, not destroying it.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2014)

Okay, I could potentially agree with most of what your saying. 

Prime Nagato w/ a real, non edo rinnegan should be quite a ways more powerful than 6/6 focused deva path.
So therefore, there's room to speculate whether the difference would be as big as 1/2 6/9th kyuubi / 100% kyuubi.

However, bare in mind a big detail of that argument is assuming deva path's rinnegan was real; Deva path's rinnegan was not real though.  Nagato's rinnegan/ old Madara's eyes are the only authentic copy of rinnegan's baring RS. Consequently, Nagato was stronger than a deva whom also had a fake rinnegan.

Doing the math briefly, the form of kyuubi that successfully repelled Deva was at 33% of its full power. 

Consequently, Prime Nagato would have to be roughly 77% stronger than 6/6 focused Deva _just_ for him to get blown back by 100% Kyuubi like in canon. He'd have to be some unknown amount greater than 78%~ stronger to successfully blow back the Kyuubi.

In order to blow back Madara's Susanoo, which is a harder target than 100% Kyuubi, he'd have to be _even stronger_. 

With all of what your saying, (assuming you can rectify the deva path having real rinnegan bit)  I understand Prime Nagato being substantially stronger than 6/6 focused deva. _But 78%+ stronger_ ?  That's really big.


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## LostSelf (Feb 14, 2014)

It is. Deva path could summon the _Gedo Mazo_, you cannot do that without the true Rinnegan. Also, it's not only a comparison between 6/6 Deva and Prime-Living Nagato. It's a comparison between 6/6 Deva's _Shinra Tensei_, after fighting a village, Naruto, used CST, etc, vs Prime-Living Nagato's_ Chou Shinra Tensei_ (Wich is _Shinra Tensei_ still, but at it's highest power.

Not only 6/6 Deva could level a village, Prime-Living Nagato would do much more than that himself.

Therefore, PS is not fighting against a much stronger version than the one KN6 fought and without being exhausted, but is meeting a much stronger version of _Shinra Tensei_. Deva path used the latter against Kyuubi, Nagato would be using the City Bustin one.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2014)

I have to clarify though.
Because I do believe a CST from Nagato can potentially topple PS.

I was mainly arguing that Nagato's non-CST ST would have great difficulty toppling it.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> PS was used only against Hashirama and the Gokage.  while the Gokage were left in  state to die, he didn't even bother finishing them off and we don't know how he did it, he probably didn't even use PS swings to kill them because all of them would be cut in half. We've never seen PS actually hitting someone, but since it can casually slice mountains it can kill people, we've seen people getting hit by ST a lot of times, but they didn't die.


Why would Nagato even need to ST him in the first place absorbing the PS would mean Madara will have to make another one and he doesn't even have to absorb the whole PS he can just absorb the legs and watch the rest crumble if then as u stated Madara can just summon a new one. Things like this take chakra and considering the fact that you said Nagato would struggle to absorb PS means that it takes aot of chakra so absorbing it would mean his end if he keeps trying to rebuild it. And if he doesn't rebuild it Nagato easily mops the floor with him so either way Nagato is taking this Lets not for get he has BT


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 14, 2014)

Nagato is stronger than Preta Realm, but I doubt he can absorb a mountain sized chakra structure before it can swing it's arm, considering it took Preta Realm a good few seconds to absorb a katon. Also, assuming he's able to absorb it, he isn't able to do the same to the shockwaves that its sword swings can produce.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> No, nearly everyone has countered *every * argument that you Nagato fans have made. There is probably a good 10 people who have one after the other, attempted to stick it in your thick heads but you guys simply continue on. And what makes you think Madara will spit out his move set from the get-go? Nagato's arsenal has a lot less variety so the chances are that Nagato dishes out everything he has before Madara does. What's stopping Madara from using Susanoo to block? And if Susanoo is already in use what's stopping Susanoo from grabbing Madara before he goes any further? And since when did Nagato start using Meteors every time he uses BT? And what makes you think that the meteor will get there so fast? And No, Nagato in fact did NOT know what was going on, he was confused that Itachi did not use Ametarasu. Sorry I do not know what "hang time" is.........if you mean Deva going in the air, then there was hardly any time, he said something short and used CST, the pressure of CST from both sides caused him to remain stationary in the air.


If you can go back and tell me what page they countered my argument in that be really helpful because last time i checked no one has. And the only argument you guys tried to get into our "Thick Heads" was he swings PS sword once then twice and game over thats a good argument.
Well the only thing out of his moveset that would work on Nagato is PS and seeing as PS is as big as it is he would be very cautious
rebuilding Susanoo whille the BT is happening is not smart at all he will just get pulled out of that one and waste more chakra
If Nagato sees Susanoo reaching he just adds more power to the BT or he pushes the susanoo back while he drags Madara
Well the meteor didn't really take time to come down
Well when he hopped up to as high as he got he would have immediately started falling down before he used CST staying in the air for that long is impossible he had to have manipulated gravity to do that they were actually able to show the other paths getting deactivated and we still saw pain in mid air


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 14, 2014)

Madara being pulled out of perfect Susano'o wouldn't mean anything, as the structure can operate without a person inside it. Itachi already showed that.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Nagato is stronger than Preta Realm, but I doubt he can absorb a mountain sized chakra structure before it can swing it's arm, considering it took Preta Realm a good few seconds to absorb a katon. Also, assuming he's able to absorb it, he isn't able to do the same to the shockwaves that its sword swings can produce.


He won't need to absorb all of it he can just absorb the legs and watch it crumble
If PS swings his sword at him that would just get stopped at the absorption barrier then get absorbed


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## Jagger (Feb 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tell me, why has such "common sense" escaped people in the manga who know about the power and who have fought the power?


Because it's not the first time it happens. Don't you think about it as well? I mean, common sense escaped from Juubito when he didn't try to directly nuke Naruto or just killed him with the Juubi's malleable chakra. 



> Since we saw the Preta Path absorb large quantities of chakra very quickly - before the users of the chakra could do anything - when it absorbed large chakra constructs such as:
> - FRS
> - V2 Cloak
> - Naruto's Kyuubi Rasengan and the chakra arms around it
> ...


Except you're forgetting about one important factor while listing all these techniques: They're not even close to to Perfect Susano'O in terms of size. The latter can easily dwarf mountains, none of those attacks can do. I agree the motion Preta Path is capable of absorbing big amounts of chakra, but it's easier to absorb something that is compressed (for example, Bee's chakra cloak) rather than something as bigger than a mountain in seconds.



> When all those massive chakra products have been absorbed and not a single person who knew about the Preta Path felt its absorption time could be exploited... Well that tells us this "common sense" you purport isn't sensible. Otherwise someone as smart as Shikaku - who had Jiraiya+Konoha's intel - would have advised people to exploit that limit rather than opt for CQC.


Already addressed above.



> Kirin vs SM Naruto's tanking ability is very different to saying Preta Path can absorb a jutsu.


It was just a comparison. Also, I am not saying Nagato can't absorb Susano'O as it'd be a nonsensical statement, I'm just saying that throwing yourself to the wolf's mouth isn't the most effective thing to do.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 14, 2014)

> If PS swings his sword at him that would just get stopped at the absorption barrier then get absorbed



The shockwave won't get absorbed. I think you're overestimating the strength of the absorption barrier; it takes time to absorb things.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Madara being pulled out of perfect Susano'o wouldn't mean anything, as the structure can operate without a person inside it. Itachi already showed that.


I know we went over that already the point of that is to get Madara out of it to make him more vulnerable


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> The shockwave won't get absorbed. I think you're overestimating the strength of the absorption barrier; it takes time to absorb things.


I made an counter to the shockwave awhile back forgot what page
And no i know that but being as he can just absorb his legs then that reduces the tim alot


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## Chad (Feb 14, 2014)

Seeing as how Madara can reform dozens of PS swords in such a short time frame while at the same time controlling the Kyuubi proves that regenerating his Susanoo is not chakra consuming at all.

Nagato gets wasted. Speed, DC and intelligence level is too far apart.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2014)

Astral said:


> Seeing as how Madara can reform dozens of PS swords in such a short time frame while at the same time controlling the Kyuubi proves that regenerating his Susanoo is not chakra consuming at all.
> 
> Nagato gets wasted. Speed, DC and intelligence level is too far apart.


He doesn't have to absorb the swords he can just absorb the legs of PS absorbing the sword is just incase Madara will try to attack him while absorbing


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## Jagger (Feb 14, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> He doesn't have to absorb the swords he can just absorb the legs of PS absorbing the sword is just incase Madara will try to attack him while absorbing


The problem is that you assume Madara is just a mindless robot that will slash one in a decade while Nagato is moving around attacking him from all the angles. That assumption alone is stupid as, shown in canon already, Madara is more than capable of firing several chakra swords in seconds, even more faster than the amount of time Nagato needs to recover.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Because it's not the first time it happens. Don't you think about it as well? I mean, common sense escaped from Juubito when he didn't try to directly nuke Naruto or just killed him with the Juubi's malleable chakra.



How does Juubito help your case? Also you are saying geniuses and people who fought Preta Path have missed something vital that Kishimoto himself failed to outline.



> Except you're forgetting about one important factor while listing all these techniques: They're not even close to to Perfect Susano'O in terms of size. The latter can easily dwarf mountains, none of those attacks can do. I agree the motion Preta Path is capable of absorbing big amounts of chakra, but it's easier to absorb something that is compressed (for example, Bee's chakra cloak) rather than something as bigger than a mountain in seconds.



The size of susanoo is meaningless, if it so much as touches the barrier, it is useless. We've seen this happen with jutsu again and again.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 15, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> PS was used only against Hashirama and the Gokage.  while the Gokage were left in  state to die, he didn't even bother finishing them off and we don't know how he did it, he probably didn't even use PS swings to kill them because all of them would be cut in half. We've never seen PS actually hitting someone, but since it can casually slice mountains it can kill people, we've seen people getting hit by ST a lot of times, but they didn't die.



Seriously what's your point? Comparing which jutsu is stronger by counting on how many people it killed? LOL what that have to do with our discussion?

I told you before that the deaths in this manga is dependent on plot, what the creator (Kishimoto) wanted. The characters can survive any situations, even the most ridicoulous one, when the creator of the story wanted them to survive.


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## Dominus (Feb 15, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> Seriously what's your point? Comparing which jutsu is stronger by counting on how many people it killed? LOL what that have to do with our discussion?
> 
> I told you before that the deaths in this manga is dependent on plot, what the creator (Kishimoto) wanted. The characters can survive any situations, even the most ridicoulous one, when the creator of the story wanted them to survive.



I already have 35 posts in this thread, it's all just a matter of opinion and it's obvious none of us will change our opinion.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 15, 2014)

Jagger said:


> The problem is that you assume Madara is just a mindless robot that will slash one in a decade while Nagato is moving around attacking him from all the angles. That assumption alone is stupid as, shown in canon already, Madara is more than capable of firing several chakra swords in seconds, even more faster than the amount of time Nagato needs to recover.


But what is Madara going to do while he's absorbing PS attack him with his sword?
Thats not going to happen when anything comes in contact with that barrier its rendered useless


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 15, 2014)

> ST blocked it, it defeated 3 boss summons and pushed them far away in one shot, it destroyed FRS which way stronger than Jiraiya's Cho Odama Rasengan which is mountain buster according to databook, and that's just Pain ST which inferior to Nagato ST.


Okay, I agree, ST bounces the sword before it can generate the swing's shockwave.
Then he manifests another sword and swings with that one while ST is on cooldown.



> as to why that won't work and according to what Edo Madara said Cho Odama is mountain buster according to DB
> and pains ST destroyed FRS which is stronger than it and remember that was only pain who was far away from Nagato so imagine Nagato himself


CHo Odama is only a mountain buster if it explodes, its not a mountain buster if it evaporates or is negated. For reference, see what happened to FRS when it was absorbed.
Ok, so Nagato blocks one sword and madara swings with another instead.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 15, 2014)

if you would have saw my earlier explanation you'd know that shockwaves wont affect Nagato and you won't even bring it up in this matter


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## Edo Madara (Feb 15, 2014)

@Lawrence777
I'm already argued this with Autoritah, seeing that Madara is IC and probably don't have knowledge about rinnegan, he won't pull PS at the start of the fight, then Nagato will raped him before he can resort to PS.

If he decided to use PS at early fight, it need time to stabilized and stuff and Nagato  is certainly will attack him while he do that.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 15, 2014)

> if you would have saw my earlier explanation you'd know that shockwaves wont affect Nagato and you won't even bring it up in this matter


You can quote it if you want though I doubt Nagato is somehow going to just be unaffected by shockwaves.



> I'm already argued this with Autoritah, seeing that Madara is IC and probably don't have knowledge about rinnegan, he won't pull PS at the start of the fight, then Nagato will raped him before he can resort to PS.
> 
> If he decided to use PS at early fight, it need time to stabilized and stuff and Nagato is certainly will attack him while he do that.


This statement by implication basically means Nagato can't compete with Madara once Perfect Susanoo comes out, which is really my main point at least .
edit: Though to be completely fair basically nobody else can either.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 15, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> This statement by implication basically means Nagato can't compete with Madara once Perfect Susanoo comes out, which is really my main point at least .



This is not DBZ where the two sides waiting for each others to achieved their respective full powers  in fight.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 15, 2014)

I never considered this Madara's full power, he's restricted here.

This is EMS Madara's full power:   

Even PS though, is in a different league than pretty much most the verse though, considering each swing is like a mini CST. 

But anyway, if Madara fights less intelligently or Nagato fights more intelligently and the result is  Madara is killed before he can use his true power, then Nagato can potentially win I agree. 

If Kakashi sneak-attacks somebody before they reach their full potential he can kill people stronger than him. It's a valid battle tactic though I'm not sure that's how Nagato acts IC( he basically acted like a juggernaut IC).

There not going to go head to head in a battle of absolute power and be anywhere near each other though, which is my only point of contention.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 15, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I never considered this Madara's full power, he's restricted here.
> 
> This is EMS Madara's full power:
> 
> ...


I like arguing with people like you because unlike the others you actually consider different scenarios


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## Edo Madara (Feb 15, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I never considered this Madara's full power, he's restricted here.
> 
> This is EMS Madara's full power:



Kyuubi is not Madara's original powers, it's more like additional powers and it's different condition than Jinchuriki who bijuu sealed inside their bodies. If you want to talking about character who don't used his full powers in this fight, it's obviously Nagato, his summons restricted.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 15, 2014)

> Kyuubi is not Madara's original powers, it's more like additional powers and it's different condition than Jinchuriki who bijuu sealed inside their bodies. If you want to talking about character who don't used his full powers in this fight, it's obviously Nagato, his summons restricted.


Well there both restricted to be fair but Madara's summon is the Kyuubi.

As for it being a part of his power, it seemed to be a free wild animal until Madara found it, kept it subdued and forced it into a contract that enabled him to call upon it whenever he wanted like any other Kuchiyose.
He tried it to summon it when he came back as an Edo: [1]

Madara also referred to it as my Kyuubi [1] .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2014)

So I must ignore Nagato's speed displays (and apply them in context of this thread) and say Susanoo's slashes help Madara because 5 tired Kage couldn't dodge them or do much against them?


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## Jagger (Feb 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How does Juubito help your case? Also you are saying geniuses and people who fought Preta Path have missed something vital that Kishimoto himself failed to outline.


I'm going to ask you very simple:

Do you believe Nagato can completely absorb the entire Susano'O in matter of nothing?




> The size of susanoo is meaningless, if it so much as touches the barrier, it is useless. We've seen this happen with jutsu again and again.


Even if we decide to follow the logic that Nagato is somehow capable of absorbing the entire thing before it kills him, what happens to him if Madara decides to swing his sword around instead of throwing it at him?


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 17, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I'm going to ask you very simple:
> 
> Do you believe Nagato can completely absorb the entire Susano'O in matter of nothing?
> 
> ...


Go to my earlier post ( lots of pages back) i made a flawless argument of how the shockwave won't affect him


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## Krippy (Feb 17, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So I must ignore Nagato's speed displays (and apply them in context of this thread) and say Susanoo's slashes help Madara because 5 tired Kage couldn't dodge them or do much against them?



Considering the tops of the mountains several km away were lopped off by the end of the sword stroke, I'm gonna take a leap of faith and say nagato won't dodge them.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 17, 2014)

How has this thread gone in for this long


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Considering the tops of the mountains several km away were lopped off by the end of the sword stroke, I'm gonna take a leap of faith and say nagato won't dodge them.



So again because it destroyed those mountains, and tired Gokage couldn't dodge it. I am meant to believe that someone with a Senju body who showed pretty decent feats (most of them as a cripple) won't be able to do anything? 



Jagger said:


> I'm going to ask you very simple:
> 
> Do you believe Nagato can completely absorb the entire Susano'O in matter of nothing?



Rephrase this.



> Even if we decide to follow the logic that Nagato is somehow capable of absorbing the entire thing before it kills him, what happens to him if Madara decides to swing his sword around instead of throwing it at him?



Or as canon shows, the jutsu is nullified and absorbed. This is supported by the databook. Unless Susanoo chakra is formed differently to Ninjutsu chakra, Senjutsu chakra and Bijuu chakra. Then yes, Madara is screwed the moment Nagato starts absorbing Susanoo.


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## Jagger (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm asking you if you think Nagato would absorb a very large portion of Madara's Perfect Susano'O the moment he gets close enough to use Preta Path.

Wait, are you telling me the wind pressure is now classified as chakra? Because, if I remember correctly, it doesn't.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 17, 2014)

I always love how I don't visit this site for a month and it turns out some of my threads become some of the most popular.  Greetings from a deployed location


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## αce (Feb 17, 2014)

Unless Madara's sword magically teleported and cut off the top of those mountains, he's just going to swing his sword and the force is going to turn Nagato into molecular paste.

No contact with PS required.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I'm asking you if you think Nagato would absorb a very large portion of Madara's Perfect Susano'O the moment he gets close enough to use Preta Path.
> 
> Wait, are you telling me the wind pressure is now classified as chakra? Because, if I remember correctly, it doesn't.



Wind pressure doesn't, but you're telling me Susanoo is different to all jutsu, in that it will not be useless upon the Fuuinjutsu REVERSING the chakra flowing process? 

That answers your initial question with: it doesn't matter. The moment the chakra flowing process has been reversed, Fūjutsu Kyūin has already beaten the opposing Ninjutsu. Its the same reason why no extra bits from Jiraiya's oil-Fuuton-Katon combo got to touch the other Pain bodies.


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## Rob (Feb 17, 2014)

Nagato wins because he's cooler than emo-bitch-fagchiha 

/Thread.


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## Jagger (Feb 17, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Wind pressure doesn't, but you're telling me Susanoo is different to all jutsu, in that it will not be useless upon the Fuuinjutsu REVERSING the chakra flowing process?
> 
> That answers your initial question with: it doesn't matter. The moment the chakra flowing process has been reversed, Fūjutsu Kyūin has already beaten the opposing Ninjutsu. Its the same reason why no extra bits from Jiraiya's oil-Fuuton-Katon combo got to touch the other Pain bodies.


It seems you've misunderstood my point, Munboy. I never said Nagato can't absorb Susano'O. I said the amount of time it'd take to absorb the entire structure of Perfect Susano'O will take more than you seem to believe. Have you  seen the size of it? The Gokage were nothing but ants in comparison to it and I honestly doubt Nagato's height dwarfs any of them. 

Some other people have argued that Nagato could destabilize the entire thing with Shinra Tensei, but it'd take more chakra from normal. Not to mention Madara isn't going to stand here like a potato and let Nagato roam free.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2014)

Jagger said:


> It seems you've misunderstood my point, Munboy. I never said Nagato can't absorb Susano'O. I said the amount of time it'd take to absorb the entire structure of Perfect Susano'O will take more than you seem to believe. Have you  seen the size of it? The Gokage were nothing but ants in comparison to it and I honestly doubt Nagato's height dwarfs any of them.
> 
> Some other people have argued that Nagato could destabilize the entire thing with Shinra Tensei, but it'd take more chakra from normal. Not to mention Madara isn't going to stand here like a potato and let Nagato roam free.



I'm saying it doesn't matter. Once the chakra's being reversed, Susanoo is going to be useless; it doesn't matter how much of it is left to be absorbed. We've seen this a number of times in the manga. 

You say Madara's not going to just stand there. Yet all the Madara stances assume Nagato will stand still tired Gokage still... That's ignoring the fact he's healthy and has a Senju body.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 17, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> If you can go back and tell me what page they countered my argument in that be really helpful because last time i checked no one has. And the only argument you guys tried to get into our "Thick Heads" was he swings PS sword once then twice and game over thats a good argument.
> Well the only thing out of his moveset that would work on Nagato is PS and seeing as PS is as big as it is he would be very cautious
> rebuilding Susanoo whille the BT is happening is not smart at all he will just get pulled out of that one and waste more chakra
> If Nagato sees Susanoo reaching he just adds more power to the BT or he pushes the susanoo back while he drags Madara
> ...



Dude, everyone has. Your simply too ignorant to accept the truth. No, Genjutsu can also "work" on Nagato and Nagato does not have anything that can "work" on Madara anyways. Activating Susanoo when 10m of range is plenty smart because that would allow for Susanoo to stab Nagato. By the time he sees Susanoos hand reaching Madara will already be in Susanoos hands. At that point there will be nothing Nagato can do to pull him. Yes it did, the one that Nagato pulled was a big rock from the water source beside them while the one that Madara pulled, despite being so big, gave Ōnoki enough time to fly all the way up and stop it in its tracks. No, because he said one phrase and activated CST which allowed him to stay in the air thanks to the enormous amounts of chakra going from both sides at the same time.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 17, 2014)

What the fuck am I hearing that Nagato can evade the attacks of Perfect Susano'o?

Madara doesn't even need to make contact with him; he swings once, and the vast, kilometer-wide shockwave of the swing reduces Nagato to a fine paste. The Rinnegan user won't even see the massive wave coming his way; he gets blown to kingdom come before he considers avoiding it (which he can't in the first place).


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## Pitbull00000 (Feb 18, 2014)

madara wins this hands down


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 18, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Dude, everyone has. Your simply too ignorant to accept the truth. No, Genjutsu can also "work" on Nagato and Nagato does not have anything that can "work" on Madara anyways. Activating Susanoo when 10m of range is plenty smart because that would allow for Susanoo to stab Nagato. By the time he sees Susanoos hand reaching Madara will already be in Susanoos hands. At that point there will be nothing Nagato can do to pull him. Yes it did, the one that Nagato pulled was a big rock from the water source beside them while the one that Madara pulled, despite being so big, gave Ōnoki enough time to fly all the way up and stop it in its tracks. No, because he said one phrase and activated CST which allowed him to stay in the air thanks to the enormous amounts of chakra going from both sides at the same time.


No one has countered it at all!! they didn't even come close im not ignorant your just making up nonsense 
If he tries to stab him it will be absorbed 
So your saying Nagato won't be able to see the Susanoo grab him?
in the manga it kinda looked like it came from the sky rather than from the water 
If he wasn't flying the second he hopped up he wouldn't stay there and be able to say shinra tensei without falling while saying it


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 18, 2014)

Madara's PS does not attack at speeds comparable to Kurama Minato's best Shunshin. Just throwing that out there i.e. Nagato, a guy who showed decent speed feats and has a Senju body, isn't incapable of dodging.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Location: Valley of the end
> 
> Starting distance: 150 meters
> 
> ...



Allow me to show you newbies something. When knowledge isn't stated, it's manga. Now what does that say? 

Madara, in the mindset "cool" won't pull his ultimate jutsu out until WELL into the fight, most likely too late.

So what happens? Madara uses katon, absorbed. Madara tries taijutsu, asura path, hell path, animal path or ST. Madara tries shurikens, Nagato laughs. Madara uses susanoo, absorbed, animal path or blown away by ST.

Perfect susanoo is the ONLY chance Madara has and nothing he showed without Hashi's DNA suggest he can do the mountain busting swings. He will be dead before it even comes out. The second he goes for taijutsu he dies.


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## Dominus (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Perfect susanoo is the ONLY chance Madara has and nothing he showed without Hashi's DNA suggest he can do the mountain busting swings.



[sp][/sp]


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> [sp][/sp]



PS fused with Kurama? Yeah, Madara doesn't get that.


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## Dominus (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> PS fused with Kurama? Yeah, Madara doesn't get that.



Why would the swords be stronger when PS is fused with Kurama? 

Anyway, you said without Hashirama's DNA, he didn't have it then.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Why would the swords be stronger when PS is fused with Kurama?



Because it's fused with a TAILED BEAST. Naruto and Sasuke did the same thing to match Juubi Jin Obito. It's obviously a power-up.



> Anyway, you said without Hashirama's DNA, he didn't have it then.



Ok. It's still a feat EMS Madara can't do without Hashi's DNA or Kurama.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 18, 2014)

It's not fused with Kurama; it's just serving as an extra layer of armour. I'm not sure why you're bothering with this - it's almost universally agreed that Madara, with perfect Susano'o, can casually destroy mountains.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> It's not fused with Kurama; it's just serving as an extra layer of armour. I'm not sure why you're bothering with this - it's almost universally agreed that Madara, with perfect Susano'o, can casually destroy mountains.



Call it what you want, it definitely makes him stronger. The same way Naruto and Sasuke did. 

Almost universally agreed means nothing. It's happened before and still been proven wrong. Madara does not have a feat of destroying mountains without Kurama or Hashi's DNA.


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## Dominus (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Because it's fused with a TAILED BEAST. Naruto and Sasuke did the same thing to match Juubi Jin Obito. It's obviously a power-up.



Or they are simply stronger because Naruto's BSM now has an armor and a sword.

You can see that when Naruto and Sasuke did it,  so that could make the swings stronger. However when Madara did it, , PS was the one doing the swings so it had nothing to do with Kurama.



> Ok. It's still a feat EMS Madara can't do without Hashi's DNA or Kurama.



Madara said that his PS rivals the power of the bijū, I'm pretty sure he didn't mean *only* his PS when he has Hashirama's DNA, are you saying that those who have that kind of power can't destroy mountains?


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## Kyuuzen (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Allow me to show you newbies something. When knowledge isn't stated, it's manga. Now what does that say?
> 
> Madara, in the mindset "cool" won't pull his ultimate jutsu out until WELL into the fight, most likely too late.
> 
> ...



Manga knowledge Madara has full information about the Rinnegan.  Why would.he use attacks he KNOWS wouldn't work?


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Or they are simply stronger because Naruto's BSM now has an armor and a sword.
> 
> You can see that when Naruto and Sasuke did it,  so that could make the swings stronger. However when Madara did it, , PS was the one doing the swings so it had nothing to do with Kurama.



Yeah, you're wrong. Kurama with armor and sword would obviously be stronger.



> Madara said that his PS rivals the power of the bijū, I'm pretty sure he didn't mean *only* his PS when he has Hashirama's DNA, are you saying that those who have that kind of power can't destroy mountains?



I'm saying he doesn't have the feat. Nagato has the power of bijuu's, yet he's never destroyed a mountain. Kisame has the power of bijuu and is even called the tailless beast and never destroyed a mountain. 7th gate Gai has the power of bijuu and never destroyed a mountain.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> Manga knowledge Madara has full information about the Rinnegan.  Why would.he use attacks he KNOWS wouldn't work?



EMS Madara is the one who fought Hashi at Valley of the end, he hasn't shown to know the rinnegan jutsu. He may know legends but so did Kakashi, Jiraiya, and others and they didn't the powers of it.


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## Kyuuzen (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> EMS Madara is the one who fought Hashi at Valley of the end, he hasn't shown to know the rinnegan jutsu. He may know legends but so did Kakashi, Jiraiya, and others and they didn't the powers of it.



That's not what OP says.  This isn't blast from the past Madara.  It's Madara with his Hashi resticted.  And even if it was, why would Madara continue to recklessly attack after watching his Katon get absorbed?  In character, everytime Madara underestimated the Gokage he responded with overwhelming force.  Katon doesn't work?  Tsukuyomi.  Tsukuyomi doesn't work?  Yaksha Magatama.  YM doesn't work?  PS sword.  At this point, if he is somehow able to absorb the whole sword, he then uses a huge bombardment as a distraction before cutting Nagato in half.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> That's not what OP says.  This isn't blast from the past Madara.  It's Madara with his Hashi resticted.  And even if it was, why would Madara continue to recklessly attack after watching his Katon get absorbed?  In character, everytime Madara underestimated the Gokage he responded with overwhelming force.  Katon doesn't work?  Tsukuyomi.  Tsukuyomi doesn't work?  Yaksha Magatama.  YM doesn't work?  PS sword.  At this point, if he is somehow able to absorb the whole sword, he then uses a huge bombardment as a distraction before cutting Nagato in half.



EMS Madara is just that. Madara before he got Hashi DNA, rinnegan, etc. As rinnegan isn't restricted then there's no reason to assume any other version then VoTE Madara without Kurama.

Nagato, absorb katon, BT Madara then soul rip. Nagato uses Cerberus and that would fuck with Madara pretty bad. He's just too much for Madara until PS comes out and Madara would be dead before then.


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## Dominus (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yeah, you're wrong. Kurama with armor and sword would obviously be stronger.



Who said it isn't stronger, it obviously is, that's why Madara covered Kurama with PS in the first place. I'm saying that those swings have nothing to do with Kurama, I already showed you that it was the PS doing the swings, not Kurama.



> I'm saying he doesn't have the feat. Nagato has the power of bijuu's, yet he's never destroyed a mountain. Kisame has the power of bijuu and is even called the tailless beast and never destroyed a mountain. 7th gate Gai has the power of bijuu and never destroyed a mountain.



Hashirama never used his wooden gates in life, I guess he can use it only as an Edo Tensei, because he was never shown using them in life. 
[sp][/sp]


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Who said it isn't stronger, it obviously is, that's why Madara covered Kurama with PS in the first place. I'm saying that those swings have nothing to do with Kurama, I already showed you that it was the PS doing the swings, not Kurama.



They do though. Kurama fused with Madara MAKES HIM STRONGER. He's using Kurama as a medium for susanoo. If he does a fucking katon in that, he doesn't get the feat. It's a boost, a powerup, and not one he has here. 



> Hashirama never used his wooden gates in life, I guess he can use it only as an Edo Tensei, because he was never shown using them in life.
> [sp][/sp]



That logic . Hashirama didn't show them in the Madara fight so he might not have had them. He lived after that and could've learned them then. However he did not learn a jutsu from the time he was revived to getting to the battlefield. So it's perfectly acceptable he had them in life as it's the only reason he would have them. Same with Sarutobi using all 5 elements. He didn't show them in life, but he didn't learn them after being revived meaning he had them in life. HOWEVER Madara has NEVER busted a mountain without Hashi DNA or Kurama and has no reason to other than power lvl which doesn't mean much as shown with 7th gate Gai, Kisame, Nagato, SM Naruto, Obito. They can be extremely strong but that doesn't mean they automatically get to bust mountains.


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## The Prodigy (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Allow me to show you newbies something. When knowledge isn't stated, it's manga. Now what does that say?
> 
> Madara, in the mindset "cool" won't pull his ultimate jutsu out until WELL into the fight, most likely too late.



Think once Madara sees his opponent has the Rinnegan, he'll know to take him serious.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

The Prodigy said:


> Think once Madara sees his opponent has the Rinnegan, he'll know to take him serious.



>Man sees 5 kages
>"This should be enough of a challenge"
>Cocky Uchiha
>Taking someone serious at the beginning of a fight
>LOLOLOLOL


----------



## Dominus (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> They do though. Kurama fused with Madara MAKES HIM STRONGER. He's using Kurama as a medium for susanoo. If he does a fucking katon in that, he doesn't get the feat. It's a boost, a powerup, and not one he has here.
> 
> That logic . Hashirama didn't show them in the Madara fight so he might not have had them. He lived after that and could've learned them then. However he did not learn a jutsu from the time he was revived to getting to the battlefield. So it's perfectly acceptable he had them in life as it's the only reason he would have them. Same with Sarutobi using all 5 elements. He didn't show them in life, but he didn't learn them after being revived meaning he had them in life. HOWEVER Madara has NEVER busted a mountain without Hashi DNA or Kurama and has no reason to other than power lvl which doesn't mean much as shown with 7th gate Gai, Kisame, Nagato, SM Naruto, Obito. They can be extremely strong but that doesn't mean they automatically get to bust mountains.





Since you like every little detail to be shown in the manga, where was it stated that Kurama will make every jutsu Madara uses stronger?


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Since you like every little detail to be shown in the manga, where was it stated that Kurama will make every jutsu Madara uses stronger?





Authoritah said:


> Who said it isn't stronger, it obviously is, that's why Madara covered Kurama with PS in the first place.



As you agree, common sense tells us.


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## Dominus (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> As you agree, common sense tells us.



It's stronger overall, the swings are the same because PS is the one doing them. 
What I said is common sense and it is supported by the manga, I already showed you the panel of PS using it without being on Kurama's limbs. On the other hand you don't have any *fact* to support your claim.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> It's stronger overall, the swings are the same because PS is the one doing them.
> What I said is common sense and it is supported by the manga, I already showed you the panel of PS using it without being on Kurama's limbs. On the other hand you don't have any *fact* to support your claim.



SM Naruto's punch>Base Naruto's punch yet Naruto is doing the punch. It's the powerup that makes it stronger. Being in Kurama's BM chakra cloak made Kakashi's jutsu 3x stronger. Madara was actively using it. You can't give that feat to base Madara.


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## Dominus (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> SM Naruto's punch>Base Naruto's punch yet Naruto is doing the punch. It's the powerup that makes it stronger. Being in Kurama's BM chakra cloak made Kakashi's jutsu 3x stronger. Madara was actively using it. You can't give that feat to base Madara.



It's not the same because  like it was stated in the manga. It wasn't stated anywhere that Kurama makes every jutsu Madara uses stronger.


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## Brooks (Feb 18, 2014)

25 pages? Lmao!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 18, 2014)

I still don't see how PS is different from other Ninjutsu, in that I don't see why it should still have its normal properties after being nullified and reversed by Preta Path.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> It's not the same because  like it was stated in the manga. It wasn't stated anywhere that Kurama makes every jutsu Madara uses stronger.



And Sasuke did the same thing BECAUSE IT'S A POWERUP. It's not just defense, it's offense too. 

Madara wasn't strong enough to beat Hashi. Fused with Kurama.
Sasuke and Naruto wasn't strong enough to beat Obito. Susanno fused with Kurama. 
There's a reason.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I still don't see how PS is different from other Ninjutsu, in that I don't see why it should still have its normal properties after being nullified and reversed by Preta Path.



The battledome listen to common sense? Nonsense!


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## Kyuuzen (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> EMS Madara is just that. Madara before he got Hashi DNA, rinnegan, etc. As rinnegan isn't restricted then there's no reason to assume any other version then VoTE Madara without Kurama.
> 
> Nagato, absorb katon, BT Madara then soul rip. Nagato uses Cerberus and that would fuck with Madara pretty bad. He's just too much for Madara until PS comes out and Madara would be dead before then.



So Madara is just standing there waiting for it to happen?  The second Katon gets absorbed, he's on Nagato's ass.  And you're forgetting that you can still move during BT, it was done by Kakashi.  Nagato uses it and he pulls a YM or another Katon to his face, and pulling up a Susano'o doesn't require handseals.  BT is the worst thing Nagato can do here.

Also, summoning is restricted.  There won't be any Cerberus, and if summoning wasn't banned, Kurama comes out.

Madara forces Nagato to stay on the defense until he eventually wipes him out.  If Nagato could Soul Rip top tiers so easily he would have done it already.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> So Madara is just standing there waiting for it to happen?  The second Katon gets absorbed, he's on Nagato's ass.  And you're forgetting that you can still move during BT, it was done by Kakashi.  Nagato uses it and he pulls a YM or another Katon to his face, and pulling up a Susano'o doesn't require handseals.  BT is the worst thing Nagato can do here.



YM or katon get absorbed as they are chakra attacks. Susanoo is chakra, it gets absorbed. BT is the best thing to do here. Madara can't protect against it, any attack he does get's cancelled, and Nagato can do anything from animal path crushing him to asura realm blowing him to pieces to soul ripping him.



> Also, summoning is restricted.  There won't be any Cerberus, and if summoning wasn't banned, Kurama comes out.



Summoning tailed beasts is banned, not summoning.



> Madara forces Nagato to stay on the defense until he eventually wipes him out.  If Nagato could Soul Rip top tiers so easily he would have done it already.



Literally damn near solo'd two high tiers with little dif.

Madara has nothing to do here. Nagato's just too much.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 18, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> So Madara is just standing there waiting for it to happen?  The second Katon gets absorbed, he's on Nagato's ass.



Why will someone whose sensory skills surpassed the entire Shinobi Alliance's sensory team and that of Muu's not be able to see Madara coming?



> And you're forgetting that you can still move during BT, it was done by Kakashi.  Nagato uses it and he pulls a YM or another Katon to his face, and pulling up a Susano'o doesn't require handseals.  BT is the worst thing Nagato can do here.



You're basing that on God Realm limited to God Realm powers, only; powers which are inferior than Nagato's application in terms of power and speed. Ninjutsu would be absorbed by Preta during the BT, this includes jutsu like Katon along with those like Susanoo and derivatives such as YM.



> Madara forces Nagato to stay on the defense until he eventually wipes him out.  If Nagato could Soul Rip top tiers so easily he would have done it already.



With the game plan that you pitched, applied to the fight with the actual facts: Nagato will stomp because of the BT combo in which you suggested a horrible counter for.

Nagato won't be staying on the defensive, if anything: Madara will be _forced_ to stay away from Nagato. He doesn't want his Susanoo to be absorbed, after all. 
A mind controlled, crippled Nagato _was_ soul ripping a top tier! His name is Naruto. He was also about to soul rip a Sennin who was saved only because _a comrade_ saw him coming. 

Though, Madara should have knowledge on Human Realm and powers such as Demon and Hell Realms, so he will probably avoid CQC.


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## Kyuuzen (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> YM or katon get absorbed as they are chakra attacks. Susanoo is chakra, it gets absorbed. BT is the best thing to do here. Madara can't protect against it, any attack he does get's cancelled, and Nagato can do anything from animal path crushing him to asura realm blowing him to pieces to soul ripping him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why will someone whose sensory skills surpassed the entire Shinobi Alliance's sensory team and that of Muu's not be able to see Madara coming?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hold on a minute.  I'm on my phone browser, otherwise I would do it myself, can one of you guys show me a dcan of Nagatu using two paths at once?  I legitimately didn't know he could do that


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## Dominus (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And Sasuke did the same thing BECAUSE IT'S A POWERUP. It's not just defense, it's offense too.
> 
> Madara wasn't strong enough to beat Hashi. Fused with Kurama.
> Sasuke and Naruto wasn't strong enough to beat Obito. Susanno fused with Kurama.
> There's a reason.



Like I've said a thousand times already, it is overall stronger because it grants Kurama/BSM Naruto an armor and a sword.


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## Bonly (Feb 18, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> Hold on a minute.  I'm on my phone browser, otherwise I would do it myself, can one of you guys show me a dcan of Nagatu using two paths at once?  I legitimately didn't know he could do that



Nagato is using *Human path* to rip out Naruto soul at first then when Naruto goes to use a Rasengan, Nagato uses *Preta path* to absorb it and we still see *Human path in effect*. Nagato was still using Human path when he used *Asura path* to catch B.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 18, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> Hold on a minute.  I'm on my phone browser, otherwise I would do it myself, can one of you guys show me a dcan of Nagatu using two paths at once?  I legitimately didn't know he could do that



Here you go: _link_; _link 2_; _link 3_; _link 4_.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Call it what you want, it definitely makes him stronger. The same way Naruto and Sasuke did.
> 
> Almost universally agreed means nothing. It's happened before and still been proven wrong. Madara does not have a feat of destroying mountains without Kurama or Hashi's DNA.



Madara's perfect Susano'o casually destroyed two mountains without even directly touching them. I severely doubt Hashirama's cells boosted his jutsu up from the level where it's not able to destroy a single one to the point where it can produce enough power to easily slice through two from a distance. This is just silly.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 18, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> No one has countered it at all!! they didn't even come close im not ignorant your just making up nonsense
> If he tries to stab him it will be absorbed
> So your saying Nagato won't be able to see the Susanoo grab him?
> in the manga it kinda looked like it came from the sky rather than from the water
> If he wasn't flying the second he hopped up he wouldn't stay there and be able to say shinra tensei without falling while saying it



No. Mostly everyone has had a say in it, but you continue with the same things that get beaten, this is called ignorance. If he tries to stab him in that moment the outcome will be the same as it was when Nagato got stabbed by Totsuka. Like I said, Madara has way to many counters to BT, Nagato would simply be digging his own grave. And then what? So he saw it, what is he going to do? No, it even had little water droplets going off of it, it clearly came from the water source. Why not? Naruto does not follow the same rules of gravity as real life.


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2014)

Yeah I'm gonna have to go with Madara here for sure. PS to end all. Especically with movement speed that can casually overwhelm SM Naruto and reactions that can react to V2 Ay. ST meets meets Sussano variations, CST meets PS slashes, and summonings also meet the PS wave. 

It's pretty evident that Kishi entends for PS to be something that Nagato can't handle.


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## Fiiction (Feb 18, 2014)

it's obvious whose better at their best, that's why kurama was restricted, if not it would be a total curb stomp.


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## FutarimeNoRikudo (Feb 18, 2014)

Ems Madara...  Its unfair, Nagato eyes are Madara's eyes so don't compare , he's not and will never be at his level.. A  real fight would be Prime Nagato vs Ms Obito. Nagato has nothing to counter Perfect Susanoo shockwaves and Meteors . In taijutsu Madara  will beat him , Genjutsu .. Do I even have to Argue on that point ? Plus , kishi didnt fully showed All madara ems skills and even futher his rinnegan use, there are techs we didnt know ( rinbo hengoku ) so we can suppose he has even more secret techs in his arsenal . Uchiha Kaenjin neg any summon , and he will easily beat them bare hands if he wants as Naruto did .


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## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 18, 2014)

Nagato tries to block a PS slash with CST and gets turned into nothing from the subsequent one.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 18, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> No. Mostly everyone has had a say in it, but you continue with the same things that get beaten, this is called ignorance. If he tries to stab him in that moment the outcome will be the same as it was when Nagato got stabbed by Totsuka. Like I said, Madara has way to many counters to BT, Nagato would simply be digging his own grave. And then what? So he saw it, what is he going to do? No, it even had little water droplets going off of it, it clearly came from the water source. Why not? Naruto does not follow the same rules of gravity as real life.


I just went back to it no everyone who has had a say in it was either irrelevant or just said suppose it did happen and gave me another BS attack from Madara that would easily get countered
And no it won't his sword would come to a stop when in contact with the absorption barrier then get absorbed
He really doesn't have alot of ways to counter it the only plausible way is Susanoo catching him but even that can get stopped if he just Asura guns him in time
And yea i saw it your right
That being said tells me that this part of the argument is over


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 18, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> It's not the same because  like it was stated in the manga. It wasn't stated anywhere that Kurama makes every jutsu Madara uses stronger.


Doesn't matter slash or not once PS is getting absorbed it cant do anything what so ever


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## Fiiction (Feb 19, 2014)

I simply don't see how people think Nagato wins. Just because he loses to EMS Madara doesn't mean he's weak. Only God tiers have defeated Madara. 
And PS can get absorbed? It's swings fodderizes mountains.


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## Fiiction (Feb 19, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I just went back to it no everyone who has had a say in it was either irrelevant or just said suppose it did happen and gave me another BS attack from Madara that would easily get countered
> And no it won't his sword would come to a stop when in contact with the absorption barrier then get absorbed
> He really doesn't have alot of ways to counter it the only plausible way is Susanoo catching him but even that can get stopped if he just Asura guns him in time
> And yea i saw it your right
> That being said tells me that this part of the argument is over



Or he can swing his other sword then throw boomerang swords and while Nagato is busy absorbing that Madara drops a meteor (which is suicide lol, I wanna see Nagato absorb that) or he can create shockwaves. Yasaka magantama?
What I'm trying to get at is that while Nagato is absorbing a large technique, that's an opening for Madara to land a hit on him.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 19, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Or he can swing his other sword then throw boomerang swords and while Nagato is busy absorbing that Madara drops a meteor (which is suicide lol, I wanna see Nagato absorb that) or he can create shockwaves. Yasaka magantama?
> What I'm trying to get at is that while Nagato is absorbing a large technique, that's an opening for Madara to land a hit on him.


Everything you mentioned can be absorbed except the meteor but thats suicide and i doubt EMS Madara can do it im pretty sure he needs rinnegan
Nagato was shown to use two paths together then use another path ability right after so he's not really much vulnerable and while he's absorbing Susanoo Madara is going to have to land a hit not the Susanoo and Madara coming out of his Susanoo to attack Nagato is a quick and easy death for him


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## Fiiction (Feb 19, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Everything you mentioned can be absorbed except the meteor but thats suicide and i doubt EMS Madara can do it im pretty sure he needs rinnegan
> Nagato was shown to use two paths together then use another path ability right after so he's not really much vulnerable and while he's absorbing Susanoo Madara is going to have to land a hit not the Susanoo and Madara coming out of his Susanoo to attack Nagato is a quick and easy death for him



You're underestimating madara with out his susanoo right now. He managed to go toe to toe with SM hashirama without it. And he's undoubtedly more skilled than Nagato in taijutsu.
Though I do agree he needs PS to win, he can simply fight on par with Nagato without it ( and can't he use genjutsu on him if it really came down to it? Rinnegan hasn't shown great resistance to genjutsu) so I don't see Nagato killing him that easy ( madara is quick enough to blitz sai and SM Naruto) and Nagato has no extraordinary speed feats so yah madara won't go down that easily.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 19, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> You're underestimating madara with out his susanoo right now. He managed to go toe to toe with SM hashirama without it. And he's undoubtedly more skilled than Nagato in taijutsu.
> Though I do agree he needs PS to win, he can simply fight on par with Nagato without it ( and can't he use genjutsu on him if it really came down to it? Rinnegan hasn't shown great resistance to genjutsu) so I don't see Nagato killing him that easy ( madara is quick enough to blitz sai and SM Naruto) and Nagato has no extraordinary speed feats so yah madara won't go down that easily.


Munboy was listing all the speed feats he had and that was when he wasn't mobile 
He could fight on par with Nagato if it was just a match of pure taijutsu but no it isn't
Nagato is a sensor so if he was in a genjutsu he'd know


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## Fiiction (Feb 19, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Munboy was listing all the speed feats he had and that was when he wasn't mobile
> He could fight on par with Nagato if it was just a match of pure taijutsu but no it isn't
> Nagato is a sensor so if he was in a genjutsu he'd know



I didn't know that if you're a sensor you could break out/resist genjutsu ( not trying to start an argument, I just didn't know)
he's still more skilled than Nagato, paths can only get him so far until madara pulls out susanoo. And please someone explain to me how Nagato absorbs to swings of PS simultaneously they're as big as the meteors madara dropped so how. And if he can absorb the first swing ( I don't see how it's too big ), how is he absorbing the other swing ( it took Edo Madara a couple seconds to absorb RS which is not even comparable to the size of a PS sword, Preta path a couple seconds to absorb an ultra-big ball rasengan to absorb) so it's leaving Nagato open more than a couple seconds open.


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## fior fior (Feb 19, 2014)

> I didn't know that if you're a sensor you could break out/resist genjutsu ( not trying to start an argument, I just didn't know)
> he's still more skilled than Nagato, paths can only get him so far until madara pulls out susanoo. And please someone explain to me how Nagato absorbs to swings of PS simultaneously they're as big as the meteors madara dropped so how. And if he can absorb the first swing ( I don't see how it's too big ), how is he absorbing the other swing ( it took Edo Madara a couple seconds to absorb RS which is not even comparable to the size of a PS sword, Preta path a couple seconds to absorb an ultra-big ball rasengan to absorb) so it's leaving Nagato open more than a couple seconds open.





Nagato absorbed all of Bee's Hachibi chakra in seconds.



I doubt that PS is manifested from so much chakra that Nagato can't absorb it given 20-30 seconds. While this would be difficult, it's not an impossible task -especially considering the jutsu at Nagato's disposal.

Please make note of the sheer power of CST.



A jutsu which has an impact crater that large is going to have some effect on PS, whether you like it or not. A standing PS would be knocked over, if not shattered, by an attack like that.

The Buddha destroyed PS with Kurama, which is obviously stronger than a free-standing PS alone.



Hashirama's Buddha fits comfortably inside of the crater made by CST and Madara's battle with Hashirama wrecks the landscape on similar proportions to Nagato's strongest jutsu.

Another important thing to take note of is that Nagato - in prime condition - can most likely use the ability several times in quick succession and on a greater scale.


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## adeshina365 (Feb 19, 2014)

"PS is getting absorbed"

Keep on fighting the good fight.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 19, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> I didn't know that if you're a sensor you could break out/resist genjutsu ( not trying to start an argument, I just didn't know)
> he's still more skilled than Nagato, paths can only get him so far until madara pulls out susanoo. And please someone explain to me how Nagato absorbs to swings of PS simultaneously they're as big as the meteors madara dropped so how. And if he can absorb the first swing ( I don't see how it's too big ), how is he absorbing the other swing ( it took Edo Madara a couple seconds to absorb RS which is not even comparable to the size of a PS sword, Preta path a couple seconds to absorb an ultra-big ball rasengan to absorb) so it's leaving Nagato open more than a couple seconds open.


If you are a sensor it doesn't necessarily mean you can break out of genjutsu but you would be able to know that you are under one to to break it. keep in mind that to break a genjutsu their are several ways
The ninja needs to stop or distrupt the flow of chakra in their body.
Another is through intense pain not caused by the genjutsu and utilizing the resulting pain to bring their senses back in order
So being that he's a sensor he could find out if he is in a genjutsu or not and use one of these methods probably the chakra disrupt one since he can form chakra disruptor blades
He isn't going to be able to once absorbed he's not bringing out anything its going to be rendered useless and nullified like all ninjutsu Munboy has been saying that over and over
And Nagato almost instantly absorbed V2 bee's chakra


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## Super Chief (Feb 19, 2014)

Is the Gedō Mazō considered a beast? If not, Nagato stomps the shit out of Madara with that soul sucking dragon of his, regardless of PS.


*Spoiler*: __


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## Strict (Feb 19, 2014)

The Chakra cloak which covers the Jinchuriki possesses in fact only a fraction of a Bijuu's full Chakra, so the amount of Chakra absorbed by him in that gap wasn't considerably huge. 

When even Hanzou escaped the attack of this dragon, it's not far fetched that someone of Madara's calibre will dodge that with ease. Nagato however will self k.o. himself. 

Nagato can't match the power of the perfect Susanoo.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 19, 2014)

adeshina365 said:


> "PS is getting absorbed"



Unless one can prove PS isn't a Ninjutsu, its fair game.


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## TheGreen1 (Feb 19, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Madara cannot summon in this fight since Kyuubi is restricted. Therefore without PS nothing Madara throws will be effective against Nagato.
> 
> Susano'o would be absorbed, Katon would be absorbed, genjutsu is not happening with Nagato's sensing, and CqC is suicidal with Asura and Human path.
> 
> Nagato will be dominating everything Maddy throws at him until he uses PS.



Here's a question. Why does regular Susano'o get absorbed, but not Perfect Susano'o? Pretty sure it would still work for Nagato. Preta and Soul Rip, and Nagato Wins. Or perhaps, Almighty Pull, Soul Rip, and Nagato Wins. He's much more powerful by himself than with the Paths.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 19, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> Here's a question. Why does regular Susano'o get absorbed, but not Perfect Susano'o? Pretty sure it would still work for Nagato. Preta and Soul Rip, and Nagato Wins. Or perhaps, Almighty Pull, Soul Rip, and Nagato Wins. He's much more powerful by himself than with the Paths.


Thats what these people don't understand even if Nagato starts absorbing PS is rendered useless


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 19, 2014)

Strict said:


> The Chakra cloak which covers the Jinchuriki possesses in fact only a fraction of a Bijuu's full Chakra, so the amount of Chakra absorbed by him in that gap wasn't considerably huge.
> 
> When even Hanzou escaped the attack of this dragon, it's not far fetched that someone of Madara's calibre will dodge that with ease. Nagato however will self k.o. himself.
> 
> Nagato can't match the power of the perfect Susanoo.


Can Madara Teleport? as long as Madara is still on that field the dragon isn't going anywhere
It really wouldn't matter anyway because im pretty sure by beast he ment Gedo Mazo aswell


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2014)

Wow this is still going?

I thought fior's CST calcs would have ended this debate by now.

It's obvious CST > PS if you look at those calcs.

Read through the thread, no evidence was presented that would suggest Madara would even understand Nagato had Rinnegan from this distance (150m). You cannot perceive ocular color or shape from a mile out. 150 meters is .0993 miles. 

Not even sure why PS is even being considered. He had no knowledge on Rinnegan's physical features while he was EMS, and even then from a mile out he wouldn't recognize them. Again, he just blitzes in and is destroyed by CST.

There is no counter to this logic. The dome just wasted time debating 20+ pages of a scenario that wouldn't escalate past ribcage Susano obliteration.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 19, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Wow this is still going?
> 
> I thought fior's CST calcs would have ended this debate by now.
> 
> ...


See if only people can understand this but the refuse and are blind to reason


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 19, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Is the Gedō Mazō considered a beast? If not, Nagato stomps the shit out of Madara with that soul sucking dragon of his, regardless of PS.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



The same soul sucking dragon that take 3 days to seal something only as big as a tailed beast? The same soul sucking that was dodged by Hanzō's Shunshin? Either way, its restricted. 



sanninme rikudo said:


> I just went back to it no everyone who has had a say in it was either irrelevant or just said suppose it did happen and gave me another BS attack from Madara that would easily get countered
> And no it won't his sword would come to a stop when in contact with the absorption barrier then get absorbed
> He really doesn't have alot of ways to counter it the only plausible way is Susanoo catching him but even that can get stopped if he just Asura guns him in time
> And yea i saw it your right
> That being said tells me that this part of the argument is over



lol no, every attack you said Nagato does has been countered. Yet you have yet to counter PS slashes. And he won't hit the barrier with his sword when he sees Nagato is absorbing Susanoo (this is assuming Nagato even gets close, which he won't), he will hit next to him causing a shockwave that give Nagato a burial. I have told you plenty of ways to counter it, Susanoo catchi him, Smoke screen Katon, Susanoo Skewer, Genjutsu etc.......and no, by the time Nagato even has the thought of using missiles Madara will be safe in Susanoos hand. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Wow this is still going?
> 
> I thought fior's CST calcs would have ended this debate by now.
> 
> ...



PS is tanking CST with little to no damage. I already proved this. 150 meters is like 1/9 of a mile, not even close to a mile so you wasted your time. Also, its funny how you say Madara won't start off with PS but say Nagato starts off with CST, that shows just how biased and a Madara hater you really are.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 19, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> The same soul sucking dragon that take 3 days to seal something only as big as a tailed beast? The same soul sucking that was dodged by Hanzō's Shunshin? Either way, its restricted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First pretty much the attacks ive said were absorption and BT both have not been countered 
The Susanoo is not going to save him before he's obliterated to pieces thats very doubtful 
If Nagato even begins to start absorbing PS its useless nullified and can't do anything so him swinging anything is not happening
He is a sensor so smoke screen isn't happening
Why won't Nagato get close to Madara? what is Madara going to do use useless Katons that will only be feeding Nagato chakra with all the argument your giving its telling me Nagato won't even need to land a finishing blow Madara is just going to drop due to lack of chakra
My argument pretty much stands tall not unless you can go against common physics?


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 19, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> First pretty much the attacks ive said were absorption and BT both have not been countered
> The Susanoo is not going to save him before he's obliterated to pieces thats very doubtful
> If Nagato even begins to start absorbing PS its useless nullified and can't do anything so him swinging anything is not happening
> He is a sensor so smoke screen isn't happening
> ...



Actually they both have been countered, I've given multiple counters for both, so I don't know what your taing about. Why can't he do anything if Nagato starts absorbing? He can swing his sword, nothing is stopping him. Just like how sensing helped him against Totsuka right? Either way, it would still work, it would burn him and Madara will get the chance to blitz him. Why won't he? Becuase PS would destroy him. Nagato won't know to absorb a tech inquest that does not require hand seals and works near instantly, try again. I have ripped your arguement to shreds LONG time ago, but you insist on continuing, so I will continue to shred your arguement until you finally learn. Common physics? Your kidding right? Stop trying to act smart, that attempt right there in attempting to act smart has just made you look like a fool. Common physics? What's that even supposed to mean here LOLOLOLOLOLOL, that's like having a debate about technology and saying you can't go agasint common biology.


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Wow this is still going?
> 
> I thought fior's CST calcs would have ended this debate by now.
> 
> ...



Lol do you even know how many meters are in a mile ? 150 meters is more like less then a tenth if a mile.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 19, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Actually they both have been countered, I've given multiple counters for both, so I don't know what your taing about. Why can't he do anything if Nagato starts absorbing? He can swing his sword, nothing is stopping him. Just like how sensing helped him against Totsuka right? Either way, it would still work, it would burn him and Madara will get the chance to blitz him. Why won't he? Becuase PS would destroy him. Nagato won't know to absorb a tech inquest that does not require hand seals and works near instantly, try again. I have ripped your arguement to shreds LONG time ago, but you insist on continuing, so I will continue to shred your arguement until you finally learn. Common physics? Your kidding right? Stop trying to act smart, that attempt right there in attempting to act smart has just made you look like a fool. Common physics? What's that even supposed to mean here LOLOLOLOLOLOL, that's like having a debate about technology and saying you can't go agasint common biology.


How do you counter absorption? your counter for BT was nearly pathetic and you had to make up nonsense to actually argue 
Im not repeating it again either go to my or Munboy's earlier posts
He was being controlled by Kabuto
PS wont destroy when being absorbed
Ripped them to shreds as in make up more nonsense and BS to counter before arguing with someone like me please get facts and don't make up stuff
The only person who looks like a fool around here seems to be you i can see you failed many times in school if deny that btw you still haven't proved me wrong on it 

-snip-


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (Feb 19, 2014)

CST is barely bigger than full-sized PS, what idiotic argument is being used here? In fact I'm not sure if CST is bigger than PS at all​​


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2014)

Lol caught me on the deceiving distance feat.

Oh well, let the shitstorm continue.



> CST is barely bigger than full-sized PS, what idiotic argument is being used here? In fact I'm not sure if CST is bigger than PS at all


Considering it nearly wiped out an entire city, that logic is blatantly idiotic. 

PS is barely the size of an average mountain.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 20, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> How do you counter absorption? your counter for BT was nearly pathetic and you had to make up nonsense to actually argue
> Im not repeating it again either go to my or Munboy's earlier posts
> He was being controlled by Kabuto
> PS wont destroy when being absorbed
> ...



How did we counter absorption? Maybe the fact that it does not absorb instantly. Pathetic counters? Now I know you know we are right but your inner fanboyism does not allow you to say Nagato looses. You know the truth and simply try to deny it. I countered BT easily, and you soly can't counter them back. PS will still be able to destroy if a little part of it is being absorbed, nothing suggests otherwise. No, I do not look like a fool, I'm not the one who says "common physics" in a Naruto debate LOL, and you failed to explain to me why "common physics" even applies here which further proves to Don't know what you are talking about, I was never good at physics so I did not take it after grade 10 was finished, and never used it since, but no matter how rusty my physics knowledge gets, I know that "common physics" does not apply to a Shonen battle manga, I also know that the gravitational law holds absolutely no relevance to Madaras counters to BT. The one who lacks knowledge here is you kid, to have the mere thought of saying "common physics" in a thread about 2 Shonen manga characters is ridiculously stupid, I have said nothing wrong, and instead of countering what I say, you just repeat the same thing over and over again. Sorry, but I was able to comprehend on a grade 5 level about 9 years ago, and your level of thinking does not surpass grade 5 standards. I'm not blind to reason, your fanboyism over Nagato is the thing that is blinding you, as well as your lack of informaty of the manga and your basic thinking and understanding skills. When your one of them only ones of about 20 people, you know your wrong, but you continue nevertheless, just shows how truly ignorant and missinformative you really are.



sage of the six madara said:


> LMFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOO you sound like such a child you really should start learning about physics because to be honest you sound like the dumb one in this argument for saying something like that



Really? Explain to me how physics apply's to the scenario then? Explain  how it holds any significant say in why Madara can't beat Nagato. If you don't answer me this, your going to look like a dumbas*.


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## Jagger (Feb 20, 2014)

I still want someone to explain to me why would Nagato use his strongest technique right at the start of a match? He fought the entire village of Konoha and only resorted to use it to finally call out Naruto. 

He isn't going to waste a large time of recovery like that.


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## LostSelf (Feb 20, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I still want someone to explain to me why would Nagato use his strongest technique right at the start of a match? He fought the entire village of Konoha and only resorted to use it to finally call out Naruto.
> 
> He isn't going to waste a large time of recovery like that.



He was looking for Naruto, and he needed him alive. Destroying the village would've killed the Jiinchuriki.

Also, if Madara doesn't know about the Rinnegan, there's good chances that he is killed before resorting to PS. As is the only thing in his arsenal that can beat Nagato. Every other thing is badly countered. But this is something i hardly see happening in the manga.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> How did we counter absorption? Maybe the fact that it does not absorb instantly. Pathetic counters? Now I know you know we are right but your inner fanboyism does not allow you to say Nagato looses. You know the truth and simply try to deny it. I countered BT easily, and you soly can't counter them back. PS will still be able to destroy if a little part of it is being absorbed, nothing suggests otherwise. No, I do not look like a fool, I'm not the one who says "common physics" in a Naruto debate LOL, and you failed to explain to me why "common physics" even applies here which further proves to Don't know what you are talking about, I was never good at physics so I did not take it after grade 10 was finished, and never used it since, but no matter how rusty my physics knowledge gets, I know that "common physics" does not apply to a Shonen battle manga, I also know that the gravitational law holds absolutely no relevance to Madaras counters to BT. The one who lacks knowledge here is you kid, to have the mere thought of saying "common physics" in a thread about 2 Shonen manga characters is ridiculously stupid, I have said nothing wrong, and instead of countering what I say, you just repeat the same thing over and over again. Sorry, but I was able to comprehend on a grade 5 level about 9 years ago, and your level of thinking does not surpass grade 5 standards. I'm not blind to reason, your fanboyism over Nagato is the thing that is blinding you, as well as your lack of informaty of the manga and your basic thinking and understanding skills. When your one of them only ones of about 20 people, you know your wrong, but you continue nevertheless, just shows how truly ignorant and missinformative you really are.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Explain to me how physics apply's to the scenario then? Explain  how it holds any significant say in why Madara can't beat Nagato. If you don't answer me this, your going to look like a dumbas*.


Thats not a perfect counter at all considering the fact that once it is absorbed PS is rendered useless like any other ninjutsu
You keep saying PS grabs him but he can just Asura Gun him before it happens BT then an Asura Gun is all that is needed
When being absorbed PS cannot do anything
You honestly do is you are bringing up shockwaves in this matter then it should apply
You only say this because you lost this argument
At least i was right about something you do suck at physics i took a physics course when i was in 9th
If you are talking about shockwaves then it should apply 
You do know if there wasn't common physics put into Naruto you guys measurements and calcs would be irrelevant 
i never said gravitational law had anything to do with your counter BT but you are blind to both sides of the argument Im prettey sure Susanoo won't grab him before the Asura path shoots him. 
I don't believe in fanboy saying fanboy is so childish you won't see me using it
I was 8 in the 5th grade never got anything less than A whats your point?
This has to be a joke!!! This tells me you lied about having a 5th grade level at 9 This statement has so many flaws in it i can't even begin to tell because i'd be here all day
If anything you have lost this argument if you think physics doesn't come in to Naruto at all


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (Feb 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Lol caught me on the deceiving distance feat.
> 
> Oh well, let the shitstorm continue.
> 
> ...



Manga begs to differ

- Size of the toad compared to crater [x]
- Size of toad compared to Myoujinmon [x]
- Size of PS compared to Myoujinmon [x]

Because that Myoujinmon the toad was standing on was a bit bigger than the others, it would be reduced to around 5-6 toads to cover the length of the small ones? And PS is a lot bigger than those myoujinmons shown, like 15x? Now count up the toads needed to cover PS and the number needed to cover the crater.​


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## sage of the six madara (Feb 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> How did we counter absorption? Maybe the fact that it does not absorb instantly. Pathetic counters? Now I know you know we are right but your inner fanboyism does not allow you to say Nagato looses. You know the truth and simply try to deny it. I countered BT easily, and you soly can't counter them back. PS will still be able to destroy if a little part of it is being absorbed, nothing suggests otherwise. No, I do not look like a fool, I'm not the one who says "common physics" in a Naruto debate LOL, and you failed to explain to me why "common physics" even applies here which further proves to Don't know what you are talking about, I was never good at physics so I did not take it after grade 10 was finished, and never used it since, but no matter how rusty my physics knowledge gets, I know that "common physics" does not apply to a Shonen battle manga, I also know that the gravitational law holds absolutely no relevance to Madaras counters to BT. The one who lacks knowledge here is you kid, to have the mere thought of saying "common physics" in a thread about 2 Shonen manga characters is ridiculously stupid, I have said nothing wrong, and instead of countering what I say, you just repeat the same thing over and over again. Sorry, but I was able to comprehend on a grade 5 level about 9 years ago, and your level of thinking does not surpass grade 5 standards. I'm not blind to reason, your fanboyism over Nagato is the thing that is blinding you, as well as your lack of informaty of the manga and your basic thinking and understanding skills. When your one of them only ones of about 20 people, you know your wrong, but you continue nevertheless, just shows how truly ignorant and missinformative you really are.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Explain to me how physics apply's to the scenario then? Explain  how it holds any significant say in why Madara can't beat Nagato. If you don't answer me this, your going to look like a dumbas*.


If you honestly can't answer this question your self you have lost this argument completely trust me i like Madara to but once you go to far and say mental things like this you shouldn't argue in the first place (you do know if physics wasn't applied here almost every single one of your arguments would be invalid
To be honest this argument should have ended with Absorption 
You seem not to know about Preta once it starts absorbing thats the end of PS its then useless 
By the way he won't even need to absorb the whole PS he can just absorb the legs and let it destroy that definitely  won't take him long at all 
You need to stop going on forums and arguing and start learning more about physics
then you say "When your one of them only ones of about 20 people, you know your wrong, but you continue nevertheless, just shows how truly ignorant and missinformative you really are"
Oh god i can see physics isn't the only thing you need to start hitting you need to start hitting the books aswell
Oh yea and please stop making this too EASY!!!!! please educate yourself first visit a library or something and go do some studying


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 20, 2014)

If you're going to make a duplicate account, at least change your posting style and name a bit more. As well as not post in the same thread.


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## Foxsikes (Feb 20, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> well,those feats have been calced many times in OBD.since i'm posting from my phone i can't link you the calcs.nagato's CT is calced at 69 gigaton it's island level+.and naruto super bijuu bomb is 8 teraton,it's country level.all the bijuu's have teraton level fire power.and nagato dosen't have any good durability feat so madara will need to hit him only once.



Lmfaooooo who the fuck calculated this????? How can a tbb destroy a whole country .  When Naruto caused several tbb to fly away they destroed mountains that were nnearwhere kakashi and gai were otherwise they wouldnt have seen it.  If it could have destroyed countries then they would have been wiped out.  Dont give me the crap where you say Naruto's tbb is stronger because even if it was 10 times stronger thag would equate to destroying about 10 mountains in a row .  Youre pretty much saying that a tbb can destroy all of usa when in reakity , it would barely dextroy all of new york city


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 20, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Thats not a perfect counter at all considering the fact that once it is absorbed PS is rendered useless like any other ninjutsu
> You keep saying PS grabs him but he can just Asura Gun him before it happens BT then an Asura Gun is all that is needed
> When being absorbed PS cannot do anything
> You honestly do is you are bringing up shockwaves in this matter then it should apply
> ...





sage of the six madara said:


> If you honestly can't answer this question your self you have lost this argument completely trust me i like Madara to but once you go to far and say mental things like this you shouldn't argue in the first place (you do know if physics wasn't applied here almost every single one of your arguments would be invalid
> To be honest this argument should have ended with Absorption
> You seem not to know about Preta once it starts absorbing thats the end of PS its then useless
> By the way he won't even need to absorb the whole PS he can just absorb the legs and let it destroy that definitely  won't take him long at all
> ...



Wait, this guy made a duplicate account? HAHAHAHAHA, this guy right here  
"if physics was not applied here my pints would be invalid" HA, this guy does not know what he is talking about.
"Never got anything less then an A in grade 5" Good job kid, you know what's funny? You don't know how to lie, if your going to lie at least count before you do it. 
"Flawed argument" the guy does not, even once, attempt to counter it and tells me it is flawed 
"Took physics course when in 9th" Its a goddamn mandatory course in grade 9 and its not called physics, a separate physics course is only available starting at grade 11, in grade 9 its general science. so again, try lying a little better next time.
"Asura guns him before that happens" implying that taking out, charging and firing a cannon is faster then moving an arm a couple meters 
"When being absorbed PS cannot do anything" I said in my post prove to me why it can't, you failed to do so, you concede. 
Brings in Asura path again, but this time says "I'm pretty sure". At that point he realized he was wrong but continues to argue. 
And then on your duplicate account "When your one of them only ones of about 20 people, you know your wrong, but you continue nevertheless, just shows how truly ignorant and missinformative you really are oh god, you need to start hitting up the books" what do the books have anything to do with this? Yet again, you spout absolute none sense. The fact that you had to make another account to try and support yourself shows how truly desperate you are to take down my argument, but you can't. Adios amigos.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 20, 2014)

the nonsense about preta path needs to stop. perfect susano steps on nagato and kills him. PS isnt needed to beat someone on the level of nagato anyway.


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## Strict (Feb 20, 2014)

Bijuu are smaller than the perfect Susanoo; though they possess more Chakra, it is compressed into more density. Think about Gakido as consuming water. The Bijuu-Cloak in which Killerbee was covered, possesses a high density of Chakra, though being compressed into a small form. Compare it to a small glass of cola which possesses a chunk of calories (Choji even titled Kyuubi's Chakra cloak as a calorie bomb) and is consumed like a drink of water. The time you would need to consume a bottle of 2 liters which is filled with water, would, despite it has no calories, need by far more time.

That is how absorbing the Bijuu cloak and the perfect Susanoo can be compared. It's not about quality but quantity that is consumed. And aside from that, the Bijuu-Chakra cloak which a Jinchuriki wears, possesses only a small portion of a Bijuu's Chakra. 

Not to mention that the perfect Susanoo's size can reach twice the size of 100% Kyuubi and slices a mountain range with one blow and is not disadvantaged by something like a cooldown.

Seeing what distance Sasuke's Susanoo is covering while jumping, you can imagine what happens if Madara's PS does the same and jumps at a height of 200 meters (what isn't a considerably high distance related to the PS' own height) and swings its mountain busting swords in the direction of Nagato. 

It's just that Nagato can't match the power of the perfect Susanoo.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 21, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Wait, this guy made a duplicate account? HAHAHAHAHA, this guy right here
> "if physics was not applied here my pints would be invalid" HA, this guy does not know what he is talking about.
> "Never got anything less then an A in grade 5" Good job kid, you know what's funny? You don't know how to lie, if your going to lie at least count before you do it.
> "Flawed argument" the guy does not, even once, attempt to counter it and tells me it is flawed
> ...


Not sure where you live but where i live when i was in 9th the regular course was biology for honors it was physics


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## Fiiction (Feb 21, 2014)

Has Nagato ever absorb something as big as an PS sword? If not, quit saying he absorbs it and that Madara can't do anything while he does.


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## Super Chief (Feb 21, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> The same soul sucking dragon that take 3 days to seal something only as big as a tailed beast? The same soul sucking that was dodged by Hanzō's Shunshin? Either way, its restricted.



You're assuming this dragon is the same as the Phantom Nine Dragon Seal. We know that this dragon absorbs human souls instantaneously. Also, context is key. A focused Nagato is going to be much more adept at controlling it than a Nagato who was out of his mind with grief and rage and was killing everything insight and didn't even specifically target Hanzo when he fled. Madara would inevitably use Susano and make himself a big target anyway.

Either you didn't think this through or you're being purposefully obtuse.


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## Fiiction (Feb 21, 2014)

Don't any summoning are allowed, other wise PS coated kyuubi stomps.


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## Fiiction (Feb 21, 2014)

Don't think any summonings are allowed, other wise PS coated kyuubi stomps.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 21, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Don't any summoning are allowed, other wise PS coated kyuubi stomps.



Summoning the beasts is restricted. Animal path can still summon.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 21, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Summoning the beasts is restricted. Animal path can still summon.


Wait Nagato can Summon? Then he takes this shouldn't be debated


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## Fiiction (Feb 21, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Wait Nagato can Summon? Then he takes this shouldn't be debated



What he said ( only because of animal path )


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## genii96 (Feb 22, 2014)

Nagato beats madara,no debate


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 22, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> You're assuming this dragon is the same as the Phantom Nine Dragon Seal. We know that this dragon absorbs human souls instantaneously. Also, context is key. A focused Nagato is going to be much more adept at controlling it than a Nagato who was out of his mind with grief and rage and was killing everything insight and didn't even specifically target Hanzo when he fled. Madara would inevitably use Susano and make himself a big target anyway.
> 
> Either you didn't think this through or you're being purposefully obtuse.



They are the same soul sucking dragons, its you who is assuming they are not. Its already been shown that fodders sous get absorbed instantly, but more powerful people take longer. And Hanzō escaped it with a simple Shunshin, there is nothing more to it. Your simply speculating.


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## genii96 (Feb 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> They are the same soul sucking dragons, its you who is assuming they are not. Its already been shown that fodders sous get absorbed instantly, but more powerful people take longer. And Hanz?☻ escaped it with a simple Shunshin, there is nothing more to it. Your simply speculating.



the one he used against hanzo took the sould of everyone and didnt touch their chakra,but the ones he used against the jins,didnt touch their souls but took their bijuus chakra from them. They might be the same dragons,but they were used for different purposes,and he can make 9 of these dragons now. Hamzo escaped because he ran away from the entire battle,unless madara does the same,and hanzo had only one to face. Assuming gedo is aloud,madara would have 9,and if he dosent have intel on them,he would be dead pretty quickly


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## LostSelf (Feb 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> They are the same soul sucking dragons, its you who is assuming they are not. Its already been shown that fodders sous get absorbed instantly, but more powerful people take longer. And Hanzō escaped it with a simple Shunshin, there is nothing more to it. Your simply speculating.



Only Naruto's soul took longer, and that's why the mechanics of the attack were the same as the Tug-o-war Naruto had with Kyuubi, like Bee comments. Aside from that, it looks like Naruto's chakra arm was grabbing the soul from the very beggining, and it began to be seen after Nagato pulled it out along with the soul, but that last part is just an assumption.

Madara doesn't have or hasn't shown to have such power as to resist Nagato's soul ripping.

P.D: Soul sucking dragons and Human Path should be different by the way.


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## Jagger (Feb 22, 2014)

genii96 said:


> Nagato beats madara,no debate


This threads proves the contrary.

EMS Madara's firepower is as good as Nagato's with his Perfect Susano'O. One slash is all Madara needs and, no, it isn't going to be absorbed since it's just the pressure of wind breaking Nagato's bones (it even sliced mountains without the sword itself even touching them).

Not to mention people assume Madara can only use Perfect Susano'O for a while? Where did that come from? Madara's chakra reserves aren't that far behind from Nagato's.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Jagger said:


> This threads proves the contrary.
> 
> EMS Madara's firepower is as good as Nagato's with his Perfect Susano'O. One slash is all Madara needs and, no, it isn't going to be absorbed since it's just the pressure of wind breaking Nagato's bones (it even sliced mountains without the sword itself even touching them).
> 
> Not to mention people assume Madara can only use Perfect Susano'O for a while? Where did that come from? Madara's chakra reserves aren't that far behind from Nagato's.


Preta can absorb the Susanoo rendering the ninjutsu ineffective thats what it does


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 22, 2014)

There's no point in saying PS if you are not going to consider how the Preta Path works i.e. its nullifying effect.


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## Jagger (Feb 22, 2014)

I understand quite well how Preta Path works. It's a absorption technique capable of absorbing most of jutsu when they make contact with the barrier created by the caster.

If no jutsu touches the barrier, no effect would be shown. A shockwave is an effect caused by the chakra sword, but it's not chakra itself.

That's what I understand of it and that's what the manga has shown to me. Also, the speed which the jutsu is absorbed varies depending on the caster.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I understand quite well how Preta Path works. It's a absorption technique capable of absorbing most of jutsu when they make contact with the barrier created by the caster.
> 
> If no jutsu touches the barrier, no effect would be shown. A shockwave is an effect caused by the chakra sword, but it's not chakra itself.
> 
> That's what I understand of it and that's what the manga has shown to me. Also, the speed which the jutsu is absorbed varies depending on the caster.


I know that a shockwave cannot be absorbed but im saying Nagato if starts absorbing the PS and bringing out the sword is not happening


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## Jagger (Feb 22, 2014)

So you're telling me Nagato can absorb Susano'O completely faster than Madara can throw his sword at him or just slash it around?

Despite Madara was shown to create several blades at once while fighting Shinsuusenju's barrage of punches?


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 22, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Only Naruto's soul took longer, and that's why the mechanics of the attack were the same as the Tug-o-war Naruto had with Kyuubi, like Bee comments. Aside from that, it looks like Naruto's chakra arm was grabbing the soul from the very beggining, and it began to be seen after Nagato pulled it out along with the soul, but that last part is just an assumption.
> 
> Madara doesn't have or hasn't shown to have such power as to resist Nagato's soul ripping.
> 
> P.D: Soul sucking dragons and Human Path should be different by the way.



Madara's Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fodder soul. Madara won't be caught by Nagato anyways, I don't even know where Human path came from and the Soul dragons are restricted because Gedo Mazu is, not that Madara can't dodge them either. 



genii96 said:


> the one he used against hanzo took the sould of everyone and didnt touch their chakra,but the ones he used against the jins,didnt touch their souls but took their bijuus chakra from them. They might be the same dragons,but they were used for different purposes,and he can make 9 of these dragons now. Hamzo escaped because he ran away from the entire battle,unless madara does the same,and hanzo had only one to face. Assuming gedo is aloud,madara would have 9,and if he dosent have intel on them,he would be dead pretty quickly



Hanzō escaped with Shunshin, he could have easily simply dodged it with Shunshin but he knew he would have lost if he stayed so he left. Madara is many times faster then Hanzō, dodged those dragons is as simple as side stepping for him. When Nagato attempted to suck out Narutos soul with Human path it to a considerable while he instantly did it with Shizune (because she is near fodder), this proves that it takes longer for the stronger people.


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## SharinganKisame (Feb 22, 2014)

Maybe nagato can't absorb madara's PS sword, but I'm sure he could block it with ST/CST.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 22, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Madara's chakra reserves aren't that far behind from Nagato's.



His reserves aren't behind at all. Fighting hashirama for a day with zero rest. Maintaining PS and kyuubi summon with no visible strain. Nagato got some beast stamina feats but none like that.


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## genii96 (Feb 22, 2014)

Jagger said:


> This threads proves the contrary.
> 
> EMS Madara's firepower is as good as Nagato's with his Perfect Susano'O. One slash is all Madara needs and, no, it isn't going to be absorbed since it's just the pressure of wind breaking Nagato's bones (it even sliced mountains without the sword itself even touching them).
> 
> Not to mention people assume Madara can only use Perfect Susano'O for a while? Where did that come from? Madara's chakra reserves aren't that far behind from Nagato's.



nope,madara and hashirama fighting for a whole day created VOTE,pain alone created the konoha crater,not even nagato. Madara's PS shockwaves didnt destroy the entire mountain,it only cut the tops off,and it didnt kill the kages either. Nagato can levitate,ot eflect the shockwave with a shinra tensei,or have his dog tank it and multiply.

Actually madara cant hold hold PS for long,at the VOTE fight,he activated it first when he fused it with the kyubi,then couldnt even turn on the sharingan after the budha's attack which wasnt that long,as an edo the same thing happened,he never had it on for long,he was shown using it against sm hashi first,then later never used it again. When was it stated that madara had huge levels of chakra when alive?,he just had powerful chakra IIRC.



Destiny Monarch said:


> Madara's Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fodder soul. Madara won't be caught by Nagato anyways, I don't even know where Human path came from and the Soul dragons are restricted because Gedo Mazu is, not that Madara can't dodge them either.
> 
> 
> 
> Hanz?☻ escaped with Shunshin, he could have easily simply dodged it with Shunshin but he knew he would have lost if he stayed so he left. Madara is many times faster then Hanz?☻, dodged those dragons is as simple as side stepping for him. When Nagato attempted to suck out Narutos soul with Human path it to a considerable while he instantly did it with Shizune (because she is near fodder), this proves that it takes longer for the stronger people.



as i said,there are 9 of them,madara sidestepping one dosent save him from the other 8,and he dosent have a byakugan to see all around him,however i guess gedo is restricted so no need going further to argue,and if ure going to use madara's speed feats,use the ones he had when he was alive and had only ems,cuz edo madara was tweaked beyond his prime. Nagato was a lot weaker against hanzo than now,and even as a cripple,he gave bee an ST,and appeared behind him before he hit the ground,essentially outrunning his own ST all while crippled.

Naruto not getting his soul ripped out may have something to do with his uzumaki lineage,or because he was in a kcm shroud or just pnj,he also resisted obito's chakra chains,the same ones he used to hold down the 4 tails. I honestly dont see what power has to do with your soul,but even if ure right,even if it takes longer to absorb his sould,it will still get taken,seeing as the victim cant even move once it starts.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Jagger said:


> So you're telling me Nagato can absorb Susano'O completely faster than Madara can throw his sword at him or just slash it around?
> 
> Despite Madara was shown to create several blades at once while fighting Shinsuusenju's barrage of punches?


Your not understanding Preta's ability


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

For the people saying madara doesn't have massive chakra reserves/more chakra than Nagato, I suggest you re-read the manga.


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## αce (Feb 22, 2014)

> nope,madara and hashirama fighting for a whole day created VOTE,pain  alone created the konoha crater,not even nagato. Madara's PS shockwaves  didnt destroy the entire mountain,it only cut the tops off,and it didnt  kill the kages either. Nagato can levitate,ot eflect the shockwave with a  shinra tensei,or have his dog tank it and multiply.


You do realize that a single perfect Susano-o sword swing would level Konoha right?





You see those small rock structures?





yeah....
It took 2 Tsuchikage's with their strongest ability, Jinton, to destroy those things and that was supposed to be impressive. Perfect Susano-o could replicate those feats by stepping on those structures and would do more notable damage. 









Perfect Susano-o destroyed a meteor in point blank range and it *still *had a shockwave powerful enough to travel what must have been more than a couple kilometers and *still* had the power to lob off the top of those mountains after that entire travel. And that was just him flexing his muscles. Something tells me that the people in this thread don't realize just how powerful Madara's perfect Susano-o is. Madara doesn't need to make contact with Nagato. A slash in his general direction will either kill him or severely injure him.


2-3 swings in Nagato's direction would absolutely devastate the battlefield they are on. In what world would Nagato be able to keep his composure after being exposed to that type of destruction? This preta argument is just laughable. Madara gets in perfect Susano-o and literally could kill Nagato from half a mile away.


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2014)

I also think the size of the meteor is being underestimated here. The meteor is absolutely gigantic ; *told him to close his eyes*
Towering over mountains. 

And here is PS which is at very least 4/3 the size of the meteor. Basically dwarfing it; *told him to close his eyes*

Then the impact of simply swinging his sword is atleast 10x the total size of PS, and notice how small those desert blocks are compared to the wave ; *told him to close his eyes*

Madara and Muu could completely stand and were dwarfed by the size of a single pillar ; *told him to close his eyes*
*told him to close his eyes*

And all this talk about PS being obliterated by CST? Really? If 8 tailed Naruto who is way weaker then full Kyuubi was able to easily break out of CST; *told him to close his eyes*
Then why would full PS which is confirmed to have the power of the full Kyyubi , be crushed by it ? Even IF Madara gets caught in that Justu, PS simply breaks out,

Not to mention that a wave that can destroy mountain ranges, and is probabaly equal to that of a Kurama TBB( said to have power of Kyuubi) should have the power to singularly destroy the ct Core. But if some people want to argue that one can't, you have to remember that Madara was able to create 10 PS sword( speed of sword slash logically) before the Buddha statue was able to even touch Kurama; *told him to close his eyes*
Itachi was able to explain the mechanics of CT and have a conversation with Itachi and bee before they were even close to to being caught by CT. Madara should EASILY be able to swing 10 times before he gets even caught. And it's also to note that PS has 4 arms.

Also regarding this soul sucking dragon thingy. It doesn't even matter tbh. Hanzo was able to evade the entire area and escape the dragon with a snipe simple shunshin, and Madara possess a a top tier shunshin( blitzing SM Naruto) 

Nagato was also only able to do such after being connected to the Gedo Mazo, and it's heavily implied that he can only used that specific Justu in that mode. So he gives up defense for offense. Madara basically can just shunshin away , then barrage the area with PS swings. Simple.


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## genii96 (Feb 22, 2014)

??ce said:


> You do realize that a single perfect Susano-o sword swing would level Konoha right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what the heck r u talking about?,who says they used jinton throughout,onoki could obliterate an island with his jinton,he could make rock golems the size of a susanoo,if they used jinton throughout,there wouldnt be a single  one standing.

Even when madara was erious against hashirama,his shockwaves did the same thing,it cut the moutain tops off,and it only hit the mountains in it's immediate surroundings,the other ones werent affected. The same shockwave that couldnt kill any kage or an unprotected hashirama is gonna kill nagato?. Hell all it did was destroy the ground beneath the kages,and knock them off their feet,hashirama also was worried that the ground,not himself would be destroyed by the attacks.

Nagato would simply summon his cerberus,a shockwave attack makes it multply,a second one makes it multiply more and so on,after 4 or so slashes,there would be at least dozens of those dogs.

Worse comes to worse nagato fires a CT which ends the fight


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## genii96 (Feb 22, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I also think the size of the meteor is being underestimated here. The meteor is absolutely gigantic ; Link removed
> Towering over mountains.
> 
> And here is PS which is at very least 4/3 the size of the meteor. Basically dwarfing it; Link removed
> ...



PS is mountain sized,if those meteors actually dwarfed mountains,then they would dwarf PS as well,which clearly isnt the case. You could fit several mountains into the crater that chibaku tensei made. That was from pain alone who was already weakened,one from nagato will be worse.

Naruto never faces CST. He faced CT,and 8 tails didnt break out,it just grew rapidly in size and was able to break out from the rocks underneath the core,and it was still trapped by the CT,just not fully covered. When was PS said to be the power of 100% kyubi? Kyubi was said to flatten a mountain and cause tsunamis with a swipe of it's tail.

CT is thrown into the sky,by the time PS gets close enough to actually cut it,it would be too late


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## Jagger (Feb 22, 2014)

Nagato can absorb Madara's PS sword, but not the effects created by it.


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## genii96 (Feb 22, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Nagato can absorb Madara's PS sword, but not the effects created by it.



if u mean madara attacking from afar with the shockwaves then no,but those wont kill him and he has several ways of dealing with it.


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 22, 2014)

genii96 said:


> nope,madara and hashirama fighting for a whole day created VOTE,pain alone created the konoha crater,not even nagato. Madara's PS shockwaves didnt destroy the entire mountain,it only cut the tops off,and it didnt kill the kages either. Nagato can levitate,ot eflect the shockwave with a shinra tensei,or have his dog tank it and multiply.
> 
> Actually madara cant hold hold PS for long,at the VOTE fight,he activated it first when he fused it with the kyubi,then couldnt even turn on the sharingan after the budha's attack which wasnt that long,as an edo the same thing happened,he never had it on for long,he was shown using it against sm hashi first,then later never used it again. When was it stated that madara had huge levels of chakra when alive?,he just had powerful chakra IIRC.



Nagato's Dogs are not tanking shit, that's absurd. CST created a creator but it also failed to destroy some house debris, its a bunch of wasted energy spread out on a large volume. Madara can hold PS for extremely long, not that he needs it for long. 





> as i said,there are 9 of them,madara sidestepping one dosent save him from the other 8,and he dosent have a byakugan to see all around him,however i guess gedo is restricted so no need going further to argue,and if ure going to use madara's speed feats,use the ones he had when he was alive and had only ems,cuz edo madara was tweaked beyond his prime. Nagato was a lot weaker against hanzo than now,and even as a cripple,he gave bee an ST,and appeared behind him before he hit the ground,essentially outrunning his own ST all while crippled.



Madara has enough speed to blitz SM Naruto. The dragons can't catch Hanzō, dodging the dragons is equivalent to dodging 9 fodders running at him. This is useless talk anyways, the thing is restricted. 



> Naruto not getting his soul ripped out may have something to do with his uzumaki lineage,or because he was in a kcm shroud or just pnj,he also resisted obito's chakra chains,the same ones he used to hold down the 4 tails. I honestly dont see what power has to do with your soul,but even if ure right,even if it takes longer to absorb his sould,it will still get taken,seeing as the victim cant even move once it starts.



Madara is from Uchiha lineage.......even better.


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

genii96 said:


> PS is mountain sized,if those meteors actually dwarfed mountains,then they would dwarf PS as well,which clearly isnt the case. You could fit several mountains into the crater that chibaku tensei made. That was from pain alone who was already weakened,one from nagato will be worse.
> 
> Naruto never faces CST. He faced CT,and 8 tails didnt break out,it just grew rapidly in size and was able to break out from the rocks underneath the core,and it was still trapped by the CT,just not fully covered. When was PS said to be the power of 100% kyubi? Kyubi was said to flatten a mountain and cause tsunamis with a swipe of it's tail.
> 
> CT is thrown into the sky,by the time PS gets close enough to actually cut it,it would be too late



Like Yasaka magantama can't just destroy the core of CT. And PS was compared to the power of a tailed beast. Can't you tell?


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

genii96 said:


> if u mean madara attacking from afar with the shockwaves then no,but those wont kill him and he has several ways of dealing with it.



What's wrong with you dude? Nagato absorbing several slashes of PS swords is like him absorbing a tbb it's not happening.


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## genii96 (Feb 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Nagato's Dogs are not tanking shit, that's absurd. CST created a creator but it also failed to destroy some house debris, its a bunch of wasted energy spread out on a large volume. Madara can hold PS for extremely long, not that he needs it for long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



nagato's dogs divide when hit with physical force,cutting them in half or smashing them with a PS shockwave will make them divide,thats common sense,physical attacks wont work on them. The houses that werent turned to paste were the ones a good distance away,everything in the immediate radius of the CST was wiped out,and nagato wont have to focus it all round,all he has to do is focus it on madara alone. That crater was from deva path alone,not even nagato who is leagues stronger. Madara can hold PS for extremely long?,prove it,cuz he didnt hold it for that long against hashirama,and he literarily couldnt activate his sharingan again,even as an edo he didnt hold it for that long.

Madara with senju enhancements and being tweaked past his prime blitzed sm naruto,not regular ems madara.

Uchiha clan is nowhere near uzumaki clan when it comes to lifeforce or longetivity. Uchiha's are known for powerful chakra and sharingan. There is a reason why every jin in konoha has been an uzumaki. Nagato.after making the konoha crater,CT crater,summoning boss summons and fighting the entire konoha,naruto and kyubi was able to ressurect everyone he killed,which numbered at least hundreds,and only died because his chakra was low.obito,who is an uchiha and had senju dna on top,would die by just reviving madara.


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## LostSelf (Feb 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Madara's Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fodder soul. Madara won't be caught by Nagato anyways, I don't even know where Human path came from and the Soul dragons are restricted because Gedo Mazu is, not that Madara can't dodge them either.



Sure, Madara's soul >>> fodder's soul. But that doesn't indicate he would resist the soul ripping like Naruto did.

Madara can dodge the soul dragons, but not if he is pulled. Madara _might_ be catched by Nagato just like Killer Bee was if he fights the way he fought with the Gokage and lacks knowledge.

I am not saying Nagato wins, but if Madara doesn't bring PS out, he is fucked.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> What's wrong with you dude? Nagato absorbing several slashes of PS swords is like him absorbing a tbb it's not happening.


well for one Nagato's wild Dogs can tank it then multiply or if thats not good Nagato can levitate and stay in air shockwave won't affect him in air


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## genii96 (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Like Yasaka magantama can't just destroy the core of CT. And PS was compared to the power of a tailed beast. Can't you tell?



it took a tailed beast,a susanoo user and a jinckuuri attacking at the same time to destroy the core,and that was a tiny CT compared to what he made as pain. Where did you get that yasaka alone could destroy it



Fiiction said:


> What's wrong with you dude? Nagato absorbing several slashes of PS swords is like him absorbing a tbb it's not happening.



nagato absorbed a v2 cloak in a few seconds,nothing in madara's arsenal has that much chakra,and you are kidding if you think ps swords has as much chakra as a tbb


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

PS Yasaka magantama > susanoo Yasaka magantama ( wait logic doesn't apply here does it )
And you're kidding if you think Nagato is tanking/absorbing two + swings from PS it's sword fodderizes mountains. I give up here this has been going on for too long.  Kyuubi should be unrestricted so this argument can be over with. But obviously that would be a stomp so have fun Nagato fans


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> PS Yasaka magantama > susanoo Yasaka magantama ( wait logic doesn't apply here does it )
> And you're kidding if you think Nagato is tanking/absorbing two + swings from PS it's sword fodderizes mountains. I give up here this has been going on for too long.  Kyuubi should be unrestricted so this argument can be over with. But obviously that would be a stomp so have fun Nagato fans


His Dogs can tank the shockwaves for him or he can just levitate in air


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

Ok guess we're forgetting how big PS really is ^^^^^


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Ok guess we're forgetting how big PS really is ^^^^^


what does size have to do with it?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Ok guess we're forgetting how big PS really is ^^^^^



It is still Ninjutsu. Upon contact, it is going to be nullified; the size is meaningless.


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

LOL (my immaturity),  You act as if PS wouldn't be able to hit Nagato while he's levitating. And he's haven't shown to levitate at high speeds so he's better off on the ground.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> LOL (my immaturity),  You act as if PS wouldn't be able to hit Nagato while he's levitating. And he's haven't shown to levitate at high speeds so he's better off on the ground.



You are assuming Nagato will remaining idle waiting to be hit. That is what your argument seems to assume, at least.

We can't really say either way, how fast he can levitate. Though it isn't irrational to say he can move reasonably fast whilst levitating. Denying that stance for the sake of PS' convenience is questionable, though. Nagato's shown to be decently fast, esp for a handicapped shinobi; it isn't a stretch to assume this will extend to his levitation.

Even then, the ground isn't such a bad option for Nagato. Nagato who has a Senju-Uzumaki body, with decent speed feats and isn't a tired Kage.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> LOL (my immaturity),  You act as if PS wouldn't be able to hit Nagato while he's levitating. And he's haven't shown to levitate at high speeds so he's better off on the ground.


The shockwave can't affect him while he's levitating


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is still Ninjutsu. Upon contact, it is going to be nullified; the size is meaningless.



I understand absorbing the first slash or shock wave, but what about another slash/shock wave from a different angle or from behind? (He's been able to throw boomerang swords).


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> The shockwave can't affect him while he's levitating



Guess multiple sword slashes won't either, I'm done talking to you .
say nomo.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Guess multiple sword slashes won't either, I'm done talking to you .
> say nomo.


By sword slashes do you mean attack him directly with the sword or just let the shockwave hit him?


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> By sword slashes do you mean attack him directly with the sword or just let the shockwave hit him?



It doesn't matter either way it still gets absorbed right? 
Say nomo.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> I understand absorbing the first slash or shock wave, but what about another slash/shock wave from a different angle or from behind? (He's been able to throw boomerang swords).



Shock waves, probably aren't absorbent. However no matter how many slashes he sends towards Nagato, if they are chakra constructs, they will be absorbed. It is that simple. We saw a weaker and slower application of Preta Path absorb multiple jutsu from all angles; it wouldn't change.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> It doesn't matter either way it still gets absorbed right?
> Say nomo.


I never said they will get absorbed you can't absorb a shockwave i said if he's in the air he won't get affected by them


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I never said they will get absorbed you can't absorb a shockwave i said if he's in the air he won't get affected by them



Just say nomo.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Just say nomo.


What ever you say


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## Fiiction (Feb 22, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> What ever you say



Say nomo.   :/


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## Veracity (Feb 22, 2014)

genii96 said:


> PS is mountain sized,if those meteors actually dwarfed mountains,then they would dwarf PS as well,which clearly isnt the case. You could fit several mountains into the crater that chibaku tensei made. That was from pain alone who was already weakened,one from nagato will be worse.
> 
> Naruto never faces CST. He faced CT,and 8 tails didnt break out,it just grew rapidly in size and was able to break out from the rocks underneath the core,and it was still trapped by the CT,just not fully covered. When was PS said to be the power of 100% kyubi? Kyubi was said to flatten a mountain and cause tsunamis with a swipe of it's tail.
> 
> CT is thrown into the sky,by the time PS gets close enough to actually cut it,it would be too late



Show me where it's stated or shown that PS is mountain sized? PS is larger then Kurama and Kurama towers over mountains ; *trip her up*

You can fit several mountains in the CST crater ? The crater is the size of Konoha basically, and you are saying that Konoha is how big ? It's not even as big as people are making it seem; *trip her up*

The one Nagato used wasn't really that impressive also btw; *trip her up*
That's about the amount of time Nagato has before Madara had already PS slashed 5 times.

What's the difference between CST and CT?

Yeah no. 8 tails was clearly breaking out of it; *trip her up*
That's why pain even says that it's impressive that Naruto was forcing his way out of CT with brute force....


It's as powerful as a Bjuii...; *trip her up*
Kurama is the only Bjuii that Madara had seen, more importantly Madara is incorporated directly to the Kyuubi many times through out the manga. It's only sensible to assume that's it's the Kyyubi.

And so what ? Madara obliterated a mountain range from the SHOCKWAVE of his Sussano sword. That's like you drawing a sword and destroying your entire house. The power behind his PS is easily on the level of lord Kurama.

PS doesn't have to get close to it at all. The shockwave of it's sword packs as much power as a TBB.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 22, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Show me where it's stated or shown that PS is mountain sized? PS is larger then Kurama and Kurama towers over mountains ; Link removed
> 
> You can fit several mountains in the CST crater ? The crater is the size of Konoha basically, and you are saying that Konoha is how big ? It's not even as big as people are making it seem; Link removed
> 
> ...


He said the crater made by CT not CST and if you don't know the difference between CT and CST then you shouldn't be arguing here
PS cut off the mountain tops Kurama was said to destroy mountains with the swipe of his tails
If Nagato is absorbing it already then bringing out PS aint happening


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## genii96 (Feb 23, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> PS Yasaka magantama > susanoo Yasaka magantama ( wait logic doesn't apply here does it )
> And you're kidding if you think Nagato is tanking/absorbing two   swings from PS it's sword fodderizes mountains. I give up here this has been going on for too long.  Kyuubi should be unrestricted so this argument can be over with. But obviously that would be a stomp so have fun Nagato fans



right,so ps magatamas now equals a tbb,yasaka and frs right?,you want to talk about logic. Ps sword is chakra,what it does is meaningless to preta,and madara has no where the chakra of a v2 jin,which nagato stripped in seconds. If kyubi is urestricted,gedo will be too,we know what happend when chakra chains and kyubi meet now dont we?:imao



Fiiction said:


> Ok guess we're forgetting how big PS really is ^^^^^



what does size have to do with the dog dividing?:imao


Likes boss said:


> Show me where it's stated or shown that PS is mountain sized? PS is larger then Kurama and Kurama towers over mountains ; small amount of time
> 
> You can fit several mountains in the CST crater ? The crater is the size of Konoha basically, and you are saying that Konoha is how big ? It's not even as big as people are making it seem; small amount of time
> 
> ...



PS is roughly the same size as a mountain,,when maddy used PS on the kages,the mountains whose tops he slices were around the size of PS. 
I said CT crater,not CST crater,learn the difference.
Naruto went from 6tk which was human sized to 8tk which was bijuu sized,clearly the rocks surrounding him would be destroyed,if kyubi actually broke the entire CT,then he would be falling back down,but he was still stuck there and pain also said he would make it bigger,so that he would be covered completely.

Who says kurama is the only bijuu madara knows?,if it was kurama,he would gave been specific. His PS slashes only cut mountain tops off,a tbb from a weaker bijuu than kurama can vapourize a mountain,100% kurama can flatten a mountain with one swipe. Madara never obliterated a mountain range,he only cut the mountain tops off,all the mountains were still standing,infact even the small rock formations were only cut in half,but were still standing,one tbb would leave nothing standing,and i am pretty sure none of the kages would take a tbb and live,yet none were killed by the shockwave.


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## Fiiction (Feb 23, 2014)

genii96 said:


> right,so ps magatamas now equals a tbb,yasaka and frs right?,you want to talk about logic. Ps sword is chakra,what it does is meaningless to preta,and madara has no where the chakra of a v2 jin,which nagato stripped in seconds. If kyubi is urestricted,gedo will be too,we know what happend when chakra chains and kyubi meet now dont we.



Oops my bad I forgot Nagato can use chakra chains via gedo mazo or was that Madara?


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (Feb 23, 2014)

Shockwave from PS ends it, Nagato can't absorb all of the sword either. Because 1: it isn't concentrated in one small place like v2, it's a gigantic sword and preta can't cover the whole sword to absorb, which makes it impossible to drain out. And 2: it's also a lot of chakra. People bring up the v2 argument but forget that the shroud is only a fragment of the Bijuu's chakra. Either way shockwave bisects Nagato


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## Veracity (Feb 23, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> He said the crater made by CT not CST and if you don't know the difference between CT and CST then you shouldn't be arguing here
> PS cut off the mountain tops Kurama was said to destroy mountains with the swipe of his tails
> If Nagato is absorbing it already then bringing out PS aint happening



I know what it is now. Doesn't change much at all. 

No not at all, the mountain range and meteor are destroyed here, not just the "mountain tops" ; small amount of time
Notice how the meteor and the mountains Directly surrounding PS are reduced to nothing. Only the mountain tops literally miles away are split in half. And this by the shockwave of the sword, not even the actual sword.

A shit is not given on what is "said" that Kurama can do. Feats are feats. If Kurama hasn't destroyed a mountain with his tail then that's just a claim that hasn't been backed up .

What is this shit ? Nagato can absorb something that is the size of a damn meteor in a moment? It took him more then a panel to absorb a tv sized resengan. Madara isn't going to sit there and watch as Nagato starts to absorb his freaking toenail. He has 4 damn arms, and can create and swing 10 Sussano swords in one panel time. Nagato gets scrapped of this earth.

@geni96

Cannot see that picture btw. And it's to note that we obviously have different interpretations of a mountains size. Obviously mountains vary in size, so saying that the CT crater is "several mountains wide" is not a good claim without specifying how big said mountain is.

Yeah no. 8k Naruto was breaking out of it, of course he's not going to break out the CT in .5 seconds. He was interrupted by the Yondaime Kage, and if he wasn't interrupted he would have easily broke out. This is backed up by the fact that pain clearly said that he was breaking out of his CT. How much more evidence do you need then a direct comment ?

A bigger CT means a longer cool time in all scenarios. Pain saying he needs to make it bigger even supports my claim  . If Naruto was actually trapped by the CT, then why would he need to make a bigger one ?

The post a damn panel of him saying he knows others? It's pretty obvious Kishi directly compares the Kyuubi to PS. Hence why it was wrapped around Kurama twice lol. That's a strong indication. Not only this, but Madara basically is known for summoning Kurama, so why would they compare PS to the fucking 4 tailed beast and not the one that Madara is mostly incorporated with ? Not only this but the tailed beasts vary heavily in power. Which Bjuii would you scale Madara on besides the one he's been partnered with already ? 

The AoE a TBB is far lower then a PS slash. A TBB had an AoE of about this; small amount of time
While Madara's PS might not literally vaporize an entire mountain( air slash compared to an explosion lol) but it reduced a mountain range( mountain range> mountain) to rubble with the AIR PRESSURE. Not even the actual sword.

Kurama can destroy a mountain range with a tail swipe ? Can I get a feat ? Or is just a claim that isn't backed up ? Yeah lol.

Lol look at this panel. The Kage were on front of Madara at his feet; small amount of time

Madara swings Completley to the right of the Kage in an opposite direction. He wasn't even trying to kill them. He was fucking with them lol. Same reason why after when he found out the Kages weren't dead, he wasn't surprised in the least bit.


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## genii96 (Feb 23, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Oops my bad I forgot Nagato can use chakra chains via gedo mazo or was that Madara?



hmm,madara can do it,obito can do it,but nagato cant?,yea right. And seeing as it is done through the gedo,which nagato can control,and summon with deva path,wow,yea your bad!imao. I see you couldnt counter anything else.



Cheeky Nayrudo said:


> Shockwave from PS ends it, Nagato can't absorb all of the sword either. Because 1: it isn't concentrated in one small place like v2, it's a gigantic sword and preta can't cover the whole sword to absorb, which makes it impossible to drain out. And 2: it's also a lot of chakra. People bring up the v2 argument but forget that the shroud is only a fragment of the Bijuu's chakra. Either way shockwave bisects Nagato



i dont know where u guys get this stuff from,what does concentratio have to so with it?,preta absorbed gaemon bt simply touching one part.
If v2 is only a small portion of a bijuus chakra,then madara has even less. Cuz i am sure a v2 jin trumps madara in every way in chakra. The size of susanoo dosent have anything to so with chakra levels,itachi's susanoo size was the same as ms sasuke's,yet itachi had much smaller chakra.
People keep saying PS shockwaves kill nagato,but it couldnt kill a single kage. Anyhow there have already been counters to the shockwave.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I know what it is now. Doesn't change much at all.
> 
> No not at all, the mountain range and meteor are destroyed here, not just the "mountain tops" ; crater
> Notice how the meteor and the mountains Directly surrounding PS are reduced to nothing. Only the mountain tops literally miles away are split in half. And this by the shockwave of the sword, not even the actual sword.
> ...


but first off your not understanding Preta's ability he doesn't need to absorb everything once he is absorbing its rendered useless and he doesn't need to absorb all of it he can absorb the legs then watch it crumble
As for the shockwave he has several ways of dealing with it he can let his dogs tank it and just multiply or he can just levitate in air he 
and he didn't even destroy a mountain range he slashed the ground and cut the top off of a  couple of mountains
It didn't even destroy Hashi when he in plain sight and you expect it to destroy Nagato the man out ran his own ST while being crippled


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## klutchii (Feb 23, 2014)

They would be relatively even til ps comes out. Nagato isn't surviving a shockwave thats slices through multiple mountains cleanly and raises these several thousand tons of rock high into the air and thats after travelling serveral kilometers. A CST could likely deflect one, but madara proceeds the swing his other sword and thats all she wrote.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2014)

klutchii said:


> They would be relatively even til ps comes out. Nagato isn't surviving a shockwave thats slices through multiple mountains cleanly and raises these several thousand tons of rock high into the air and thats after travelling serveral kilometers. A CST could likely deflect one, but madara proceeds the swing his other sword and thats all she wrote.


His dogs can tank the shockwave or he can levitate in the air shockwave's won't be a problem


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## klutchii (Feb 23, 2014)

If your saying the cerberus is gonna be used as a shield for nagato then no,  the shockwaves split in in half  and proceeds to pulverize his body... Levitating  in the air wouldn't help either as  shockwaves travel through air, and these aren't normal shockwaves that that merely push  objects away, it's a very sharp air blade that cuts. I will say nagato has a chance if he makes contact with the susanoo and absorbs with preta but honestly I don't see that happening...


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2014)

klutchii said:


> If your saying the cerberus is gonna be used as a shield for nagato then no,  the shockwaves split in in half  and proceeds to pulverize his body... Levitating  in the air wouldn't help either as  shockwaves travel through air, and these aren't normal shockwaves that that merely push  objects away, it's a very sharp air blade that cuts. I will say nagato has a chance if he makes contact with the susanoo and absorbs with preta but honestly I don't see that happening...


Cerberus will just split into more and your right Shockwaves can travel through air but it won't be able to affect things in air unless it has a solid end point that has connection with earth or a plate


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2014)

I don't understand why we are assuming Nagato will just stand in one spot, waiting to be beaten by the Susanoo slashes.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't understand why we are assuming Nagato will just stand in one spot, waiting to be beaten by the Susanoo slashes.


Because apparently these people think that Nagato isn't fast enough to dodge it then when they want to give us what they call the benefit of the doubt they say Nagato dodges the first then PS swings his sword a second time. Its quite stupid but thats what we can expect


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## Veracity (Feb 23, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> but first off your not understanding Preta's ability he doesn't need to absorb everything once he is absorbing its rendered useless and he doesn't need to absorb all of it he can absorb the legs then watch it crumble
> As for the shockwave he has several ways of dealing with it he can let his dogs tank it and just multiply or he can just levitate in air he
> and he didn't even destroy a mountain range he slashed the ground and cut the top off of a  couple of mountains
> It didn't even destroy Hashi when he in plain sight and you expect it to destroy Nagato the man out ran his own ST while being crippled



What you you don't understand is that basically is useless lol. By the time he absorbs a single leg( atleast 50 times his body height, and it took a panel to absorb something smaller then him , while Madara could create 10 Sussano swords in a panel) Madara already has 7 shockwaves in Nagatos eyebrows. I'm basically saying that Nagatos preta path takes time to absorb , and Madara can get off a comfortable amount of slashes.

Yeah no , just no. Placing a single object in front of a shockwaves will not block Nagato from anything. Same way the meteor in front of PS did not block the mountains behind it from getting sliced half by pure air pressure. That's like standing behind a car in a nuclear explosion and hoping to survive. Basically , is Nagato is in the AoE( which is several kilometers) then he is getting killed.

What will levitating do ? If you look at the AoE of the PS then you'd realize it's several times the height of PS itself which is the size of mountains. Unless Nagato is literally hovering like 4 miles in the air, then he's getting obliterated. Even if he was floating that high, then Madara simply aims his sword slash high lol.

How did he not destroy a mountain range? The mountain and meteor beside PS are literally reduced to nothing, the mountains MILES away are split in half by air pressure, and everything between the meteor and the mountains miles away is destroyed; *half of his chakra left*
Regardless if it actually destroyed a mountain range in your eyes, it's still More then enough to destroy CT, and FAR more then enough to destroy Nagato. And it's EASILY spamable. Madara could replicate that feat 5 times in a panel.

Hashirama also survived a Kyyubi TBB at the epicenter. Let's not compare the God of Shinobi, who is atleast a tier above Nagato in base, to just Nagato.

Nagato could not walk. Hence the reason Itachi had to carry him to the battlefield. That was most likely a summoning that helped him.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What you you don't understand is that basically is useless lol. By the time he absorbs a single leg( atleast 50 times his body height, and it took a panel to absorb something smaller then him , while Madara could create 10 Sussano swords in a panel) Madara already has 7 shockwaves in Nagatos eyebrows. I'm basically saying that Nagatos preta path takes time to absorb , and Madara can get off a comfortable amount of slashes.
> 
> Yeah no , just no. Placing a single object in front of a shockwaves will not block Nagato from anything. Same way the meteor in front of PS did not block the mountains behind it from getting sliced half by pure air pressure. That's like standing behind a car in a nuclear explosion and hoping to survive. Basically , is Nagato is in the AoE( which is several kilometers) then he is getting killed.
> 
> ...


You do know that if Nagato starts absorbing the PS its nullified
The comparisons you made are not relevant in this case because the meteor and the car are just blown away or destroyed but his Dog summonings won't get destroyed when hit they split and duplicate so the more shockwaves the more opponents
If he levitates and he's in the air a shockwave cannot affect a shockwave in the air unless its an end point with connection to earth or plates 
It CT bring in mountains boulders and huge trees to form it and your saying that that slash that cliced of the top of the mountain can destroy it. Plus look at the CT a Pain made that was already exhausted that used a CST to level Konoha and plus he was being controlled by a emaciated skinny and weakened Nagato but this time its just Nagato him self he's not emaciated or exhausted so the CT he'll use will be Huge
And we already saw him put the Chakra he steals into good use so just incase he's weakened or beat he can just absorb some of the chakra PS throws at him and revitalize him

But realistically speaking Madara is not going to bring out PS until its to late because he thinks the only person who can stand up to him is Hashi so ST can end this or if he doesn't resort to that an Asura Gun will obliterate him but this is just a realistic scenario however we are going with your PS scenario


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## Veracity (Feb 23, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> You do know that if Nagato starts absorbing the PS its nullified
> The comparisons you made are not relevant in this case because the meteor and the car are just blown away or destroyed but his Dog summonings won't get destroyed when hit they split and duplicate so the more shockwaves the more opponents
> If he levitates and he's in the air a shockwave cannot affect a shockwave in the air unless its an end point with connection to earth or plates
> It CT bring in mountains boulders and huge trees to form it and your saying that that slash that cliced of the top of the mountain can destroy it. Plus look at the CT a Pain made that was already exhausted that used a CST to level Konoha and plus he was being controlled by a emaciated skinny and weakened Nagato but this time its just Nagato him self he's not emaciated or exhausted so the CT he'll use will be Huge
> ...



Yeah no not at all. That has never once happened in the manga. If Nagato absorbs PS's leg then his arms are to move freely. Unless you want to provide a scan that supports your claim ?

The shockwave is not an attack that pin points a single area, it destroys everything in it's AoE. Nagato is still getting hit. And the dog may have good regeneration feats, but it's durabilty feats aren't that impressive. The wave would send the dog miles away, and would eat the shit out of Nagato.

What? That's not even how it works. The shockwave is simply airpressure. If Nagato is in the air he still gets hit the shockwave.

Okay? At most Nagato can make a CT double the size of the one against Naruto. 8k naruto himself could bust that CT with brute force alone lol. PS actually has a chance to bust out of a Nagato CT based on the fact that's it's been compared to full Kurama. And regardless of that, Madara can can create and swing 10 shockwaves in a single panel. Itachi , Bee and, Naruto were able to complete an entire conversation before they were even close to getting killed. PS slashes get forced into the core and bust it with ease.

Madara can survive a ST blast. A weakened Kakashi could, and Madara could survive a point blank V2 Ay hit. And his chakra blast is most certainly not going to connect with Madara. Madara could PHYSICALLY react to a V2 at almost point blank range. Sussano activation is even faster, he simply brings a Sussano body over himself to block both ST and chakra blasts.

If Madara gets caught in CT, he has MORE then enough time to activate PS and start swinging away.

And both opponents have zero knowledge, so it's harms both of them. Nagato will not expect a Sussano to produce air waves strong enough to split mountains in half.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah no not at all. That has never once happened in the manga. If Nagato absorbs PS's leg then his arms are to move freely. Unless you want to provide a scan that supports your claim ?
> 
> The shockwave is not an attack that pin points a single area, it destroys everything in it's AoE. Nagato is still getting hit. And the dog may have good regeneration feats, but it's durabilty feats aren't that impressive. The wave would send the dog miles away, and would eat the shit out of Nagato.
> 
> ...


So your telling me that PS isn't ninjutsu all things that Preta absorbed were rendered useless
If Nagato stands behind the Dog the dog is taking the hit for him the Dog duplicates when hit so its not going right through the Dog and hitting him.
Yes that is how they work ive learned about shockwaves more than i can count Shockwaves travel through air but isnt as powerful so it gets reduced to wind unless in contact with an endpoint that is touching a plate. If only traveling through air then the shock wave reduces drastically during a short period time so realistically speaking the further away Nagato is in the air the less gust of wind he will feel
How do you know that it will only be double the size? And since the core is pure dense gravity a shockwaves won't do the trick shockwaves can't work with gravity the gravity would only weaken the strength of the shockwave he'd be better off actually using the PS sword along with a Yasaka  Magatama but even that is doubtful 

Im talking about the one he used on the Toad team it sent all 3 of them flying basically out of the crater made by the CST and it injured them a great deal
Madara isn't just going to bring out Susanoo he's going to try some Katons and by the time i realizes they won't work it would be too late he can just BT him bring him over then just Asura Gun him ore Soul rip him


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## Krippy (Feb 23, 2014)

Stop posting in this thread. 

PS oneshots.


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## ZE (Feb 23, 2014)

31 pages? I can't believe this. C'mon guys. Madara wins one way or another. I know I'm a Nagato and rinnegan hater, but anyone can see Nagato has nothing on Madara.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 23, 2014)

Why the fuck is this thread so long?

Please, some pro-Nagato poster tell me exactly what the Rinnegan user can accomplish against Perfect Susano'o. He's not breaching it with any sort of offensive technique. He won't be getting nearly close enough to the construct to absorb it. His summons are complete dogshit in comparison. There is precisely nothing anybody supporting Nagato can put forward that would give him even the slightest chance of surviving against Madara's full power.

If we're talking Madara without his strongest technique, an argument can be made. But as of now, the Uchiha is a full tier beyond his predecessor.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Why the fuck is this thread so long?
> 
> Please, some pro-Nagato poster tell me exactly what the Rinnegan user can accomplish against Perfect Susano'o. He's not breaching it with any sort of offensive technique. He won't be getting nearly close enough to the construct to absorb it. His summons are complete dogshit in comparison. There is precisely nothing anybody supporting Nagato can put forward that would give him even the slightest chance of surviving against Madara's full power.
> 
> If we're talking Madara without his strongest technique, an argument can be made. But as of now, the Uchiha is a full tier beyond his predecessor.



Madara, the cocky uchiha, won't use PS at the beginning of a fight. Nagato however will BT and soul rip. What does Madara do to that? Susanoo, katons, and everything gets absorbed. If he tries taijutsu, good luck against Asura path grabbing you with 3 arms.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Madara, the cocky uchiha, won't use PS at the beginning of a fight. Nagato however will BT and soul rip. What does Madara do to that? Susanoo, katons, and everything gets absorbed. If he tries taijutsu, good luck against Asura path grabbing you with 3 arms.


Thank you!
One less ignorant annoyance to respond to


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Stop posting in this thread.
> 
> PS oneshots.


You need a drug test!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Please, some pro-Nagato poster tell me exactly what the Rinnegan user can accomplish against Perfect Susano'o. He's not breaching it with any sort of offensive technique. He won't be getting nearly close enough to the construct to absorb it. His summons are complete dogshit in comparison. There is precisely nothing anybody supporting Nagato can put forward that would give him even the slightest chance of surviving against Madara's full power.



Why isn't CST going to do anything?

Why is Nagato unable to get close enough to absorb it?

Why are summons obsolete here, when Nagato has the amplification summoning jutsu?


Of course pro-Madara arguments will see Nagato as outmatched. The arguments rely on severely underestimating Nagato and proportionally overestimating Perfect Susanoo!


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (Feb 23, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Madara, the cocky uchiha, won't use PS at the beginning of a fight. Nagato however will BT and soul rip. What does Madara do to that? Susanoo, katons, and everything gets absorbed. If he tries taijutsu, good luck against Asura path grabbing you with 3 arms.


Cocky even against a Rinnegan user? You're saying Madara thinks Nagato is some fodder while he obviously has Rinnegan, which was what EMS Madara was chasing his entire life, and he's going to act cocky against that? This is just speculation but the tablet should give him all the info about Rinnegan already, and even if it didn't, Hashirama not being able to read it still had knowledge about Rinnegan and Rinne Tensei.

Madara going serious means PS, which is bigger than CT and around the same size of CST. 8-tailed *half Kyuubi* broke through it with physical strength alone, and PS is *tiers* above that considering it's size. 

Concerning Preta: Don't even make comparison between PS, which is many many times bigger than a Bijuu and V2 Bee, which is only a portion of the Bijuu's chakra. Sasuke's chakra alone was more powerful than Kyuubi and able to suppress it, Madara being the one with most powerful chakra ever should be above that, making his Susanoo's (manifested from his chakra) chakra quality on the level or above Bee's V2. Not only does Madara have chakra quality, he also has quantity in PS's size. Preta is not good at absorbing large scale like that since it's limited to a shield around his body. Nagato was only able to absorb Bee's V2 since the shroud is small and fits around Bee's body nicely, not talking about chakra quality absorbed, but obviously for the quantity part it's lacking. He can Absorb PS but only a tiny portion due to him only able to absorb through the small shield around his body, which does absolutely nothing and he gets obliterated.

Offense: Madara was able to react to V2 Ay's attack *last second* when his fist was inches away from Madara'a face. EMS  also enabled Sasuke to follow Jin Obito, Madara having EMS would allow him to be able to track speed of that level, which is tiers above Nagato's levitating ability. And he also fought the fastest ninja at the time (Tobirama) many times, who possessed Hiraishin. Staying on target and hitting Nagato shouldn't be a problem to Madara. Something that can obliterate everything in it's way for miles can never be defended by Nagato, doesn't matter which summon or trick he uses. PS ends it. 

Madara wins.​


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 23, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why isn't CST going to do anything?



Because it fails to even approach the destructive yield of a regular Tailed Beast Bomb, let alone that of an *original-sized* Kurama? Taking into account calculations from the Outskirts Battledome, Pain's full-power Shinra Tensei was estimated at 220 megatons - normal Tailed Beast Bombs from Matatabi through Chomei, in turn, were 4 gigatons apiece.

Whereas Perfect Susano'o's swing almost matches a full-power Shinra Tensei on its own - *133 *megatons. You could argue that Nagato is here in person instead of through a medium such as Pain, and his destructive output would accordingly be much greater - but I doubt it's enough to warrant a boost of twenty times.

And even if it did, it's irrelevant because Perfect Susano'o came out of Kurama's blast unscratched. It took eleven more, along with thousands of punches from Hashirama's Artifacts of the Buddha - each blow _extremely_ likely to be much more powerful than a slash from Perfect Susano'o itself.

Take all my points into consideration. You should reach a logical conclusion: Nagato simply can't muster enough firepower to harm Madara.



> Why is Nagato unable to get close enough to absorb it?



Perfect Susano'o swings. Nagato is *pulverized*.

Or heck, the chakra construct just takes a single step back, and the Rinnegan user has to travel another several hundred meters just to catch up. 



> Why are summons obsolete here, when Nagato has the amplification summoning jutsu?



Because they can't remotely hurt Madara's defenses.

Every single one is useless but the Multi-Headed Dog, which would only be appropriate for distractions. Not to mention it'd be a no-limits fallacy to suggest it could survive an attack from Perfect Susano'o since Wind Style: Rasenshuriken is far below it in sheer destructive capacity.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 23, 2014)

It pains me to my core how this thread is still going on


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Because it fails to even approach the destructive yield of a regular Tailed Beast Bomb, let alone that of an *original-sized* Kurama? Taking into account calculations from the Outskirts Battledome, Pain's full-power Shinra Tensei was estimated at 220 megatons - normal Tailed Beast Bombs from Matatabi through Chomei, in turn, were 4 gigatons apiece.
> 
> Whereas Perfect Susano'o's swing almost matches a full-power Shinra Tensei on its own - *133 *megatons. You could argue that Nagato is here in person instead of through a medium such as Pain, and his destructive output would accordingly be much greater - but I doubt it's enough to warrant a boost of twenty times.
> 
> ...



We've seen a CST from a God Realm who was at a distance from a chakra malnourished Nagato. We know that is no where near the scale Nagato can produce his CST.

I can take your points and reach the same conclusion you did if we are capping Nagato's CST capability at a distanced God Realm's. However I believe Nagato can utilise a greater CST than Pain, esp a prime Nagato.



> Perfect Susano'o swings. Nagato is *pulverized*.
> 
> Or heck, the chakra construct just takes a single step back, and the Rinnegan user has to travel another several hundred meters just to catch up.


Why can't the guy who mastered Shunshin (among other jutsu), with a large chakra capacity, decent speed feats and a Senju body along with the ability to fly not get close to Susanoo?



> Because they can't remotely hurt Madara's defenses.
> 
> Every single one is useless but the Multi-Headed Dog, which would only be appropriate for distractions. Not to mention it'd be a no-limits fallacy to suggest it could survive an attack from Perfect Susano'o since Wind Style: Rasenshuriken is far below it in sheer destructive capacity.



We can't impost NLF on anything we deem unfair... remember how that worked out in the end when we applied that to Preta?

Madara isn't getting rid of any summons imbued with the multiplication condition.


----------



## genii96 (Feb 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @geni96
> 
> Cannot see that picture btw. And it's to note that we obviously have different interpretations of a mountains size. Obviously mountains vary in size, so saying that the CT crater is "several mountains wide" is not a good claim without specifying how big said mountain is.
> 
> ...



it dosent matter if pd is the size of a big mountain,if you put 4-5 medium sized mountains together they'd be bigger than a single big mountain.
If madara believed his PS was the same power as the kyubi,he would say so,since the kyubi is the strongest,but he just said bijuu. I dont know what you mean by mountain range,only 2 mountains were sliced,the rest were just those little rock formations and the ground,those rock formations were still standing too,as were the mountains,so you dont have much there,here too,against hashi,the mountains were much closer,only tops were cut off,*four Raikiri*. 
Aoe?,a bijuu can choose to fire it is a beam,*four Raikiri* and can fill up a mountain range,*four Raikiri*. That will do more damage than that slash too. This is just from hachibi,who is weaker than 50 percent kurama,not to mention the full one. It dosent matter if they vary in power,each one can casually vapourize a mountain,thats much more than cutting the tops of mountains. Also hachibi can even use a continous tbb attack which can fire off about 4 tbbs at once like what they did to the juubi,that's 4 vapourized mountains. So yea, full kyubi is out the question.

The scan you gave was of hashirama and madara,nothing about a shockwave or kage position.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (May 28, 2014)

I still think Nagato could easily counter PS with his absorb/ gravity technique.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 28, 2014)

Nagato dies horribly


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 28, 2014)

Lol it was make in 2014 but it feels like forever since this thread happened. Boy 32 pages...smh first crappy thread i had to put in my sig.


----------



## trance (May 28, 2014)

Nothing's changed. EMS Madara wins. He's just superior. Madara has claimed his Perfect Susanoo is equivalent to a bijuu and has tanked a bijudama from Kurama, so nothing Nagato can damage it.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (May 28, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Nothing's changed. EMS Madara wins. He's just superior. Madara has claimed his Perfect Susanoo is equivalent to a bijuu and has tanked a bijudama from Kurama, so nothing Nagato can damage it.



Im pretty sure Nagato can absorb tailed beast attacks... therefore he can absorb PS.  Or do you not recall him fighting six tails enraged nine tails and he wasnt even at full power he was weakened by doing almighty push.


----------



## Fiiction (May 28, 2014)

Shockwave gg. Genjutsu gg.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 28, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Shockwave gg. Genjutsu gg.



Nagato CST the shockwave deflecting it and then dash in and absorb the entire PS leaving madara defenseless. After that it is asura path rockets GG.

Not only does nagato has madara's eyes he also should be resistant to genjutsu having the higher eye power.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (May 28, 2014)

Yeah, Nagato isn't pushing Madara past mid diff. I'm willing to say that with his monstrous chakra reserves, insane hax and the rinnegan, Madara certainly won't roll him over, but I'd like to see his answer to Madara's strongest techs, not to mention PS...PS pretty much answers any questions Nagato would ask him.

Nagato is hella strong, massively underrated in the BD in general, but he isn't beating Indra's reincarnate that pushed Shodai to extreme diff.


----------



## Kyuuzen (May 28, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Im pretty sure Nagato can absorb tailed beast attacks... therefore he can absorb PS.  Or do you not recall him fighting six tails enraged nine tails and he wasnt even at full power he was weakened by doing almighty push.



No he wasn't.  He even says it himself that his power returned.  He uses Shinra Tensei to deflect a Rasen Shuriken, showing that his strength has fully returned.

The only Tailed Beast attack he absorbed was Bee's lariat.  What you're listing aren't feats.  It's conjecture.



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Nagato CST the shockwave deflecting it and then dash in and absorb the entire PS leaving madara defenseless. After that it is asura path rockets GG.
> 
> Not only does nagato has madara's eyes he also should be resistant to genjutsu having the higher eye power.



What am I reading?

I'm not even gonna touch PS Sword, because frankly, that argument goes on forever.

But how the Hell does he have Madara's eyes?  Wrong.  He has the Rin'negan.  Madara has the Eternal Mangekyou.  Nagato has NO counter for genjutsu.



Somebody lock this thread.  Jesus Christ.


----------



## trance (May 28, 2014)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> Yeah, Nagato isn't pushing Madara past mid diff. I'm willing to say that with his monstrous chakra reserves, insane hax and the rinnegan, Madara certainly won't roll him over, but I'd like to see his answer to *Madara's strongest techs*, not to mention PS...PS pretty much answers any questions Nagato would ask him.
> 
> Nagato is hella strong, massively underrated in the BD in general, but he isn't beating Indra's reincarnate that pushed Shodai to extreme diff.



Strongest tech*s* as in several? To my knowledge, without Kurama, Perfect Susanoo is the only thing EMS Madara has that can trump Nagato.


----------



## Fiiction (May 28, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Nagato CST the shockwave deflecting it and then dash in and absorb the entire PS leaving madara defenseless. After that it is asura path rockets GG.
> 
> Not only does nagato has madara's eyes he also should be resistant to genjutsu having the higher eye power.



Show me a rinnegan genjutsu resistant feat. Rinnegan is completely different. Does it even have precognition?

PS has 2 swords. 2 shockwaves, one after the other. CST has a cool down limit. Try again.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (May 28, 2014)

Actually nagato deosn't even need to block PS he can just run circles around Madara. You people give Madara to much credit. Yes he is a legendary ninja but he is not going to smack around a Rinnegan User when Rinnegan > EMS


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 28, 2014)

I Am Anarchy said:


> What am I reading?


The truth.



> I'm not even gonna touch PS Sword, because frankly, that argument goes on forever.


It touches preta path barrier it is useless.



> But how the Hell does he have Madara's eyes?


Madara put his rinnegan in him as a kid.



> Wrong.


I am right.



> He has madara's Rin'negan.


Fix'd



> Madara has the Eternal Mangekyou.


So?



> Nagato has NO counter for genjutsu.


Except having madara's ocular powers, the higher level dojutsu and he can fight without looking at madara he is in the top 5 sensors.


*Spoiler*: __ 



You are being trolled i know madara would win


----------



## trance (May 28, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Im pretty sure Nagato can absorb tailed beast attacks... *therefore he can absorb PS*.



That's a pretty bold claim. Not gonna argue whether he can or not but he won't even be able to since one swing is all that's needed to kill Nagato.



> Or do you not recall him fighting six tails enraged nine tails and he wasnt even at full power he was weakened by doing almighty push.



PS >>>>>>>> KN6.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (May 28, 2014)

You should have let this just die.


----------



## Fiiction (May 28, 2014)

Maybe I'm overrating EMS Madara.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (May 28, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> You should have let this just die.



Please don't lock it just yet we still have room for debate.


----------



## trance (May 28, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> You should have let this just die.



Please lock this.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 28, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Please don't lock it just yet we still have room for debate.


----------



## Kyuuzen (May 28, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Please lock this.



Pretty please.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (May 28, 2014)

There are still so many variables. What does madara have to counter Nagato summoning the GM and using his soul dragon technique? Oh thats right nothing at all.
How fast is Madara compared to Nagato? Oh yeah t hats right Nagato is faster.

Im pretty sure Nagato has more stamina then Madara due to his Uzamaki ancestery. Remember this is not enhanced madara with hashi cells.

Even if MAdara blitzed Nagato with PS swings one after the other NAgato could just dodge them. Madara doesn't have infinite chakra he would tire eventually. Yes that means I think NAgato has a greater chakra pool then Madara...


----------



## Kyuuzen (May 28, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> There are still so many variables. What does madara have to counter Nagato summoning the GM and using his soul dragon technique? Oh thats right nothing at all.



So are you saying PS Sword couldn't destroy the statue, or...?



> How fast is Madara compared to Nagato? Oh yeah t hats right Nagato is faster.



Show proof or I'm disregarding.  Also, if he uses the statue he can no longer move.



> Im pretty sure Nagato has more stamina then Madara due to his Uzamaki ancestery. Remember this is not enhanced madara with hashi cells.



Madara had enough chakra to subdue the Nine Tails and then go on to battle Hashirama, who was a stamina MONSTER.  He's shown enough reserves to hang with the big boys, at least anyone below Naruto's freakish stamina.



> Even if MAdara blitzed Nagato with PS swings one after the other NAgato could just dodge them. Madara doesn't have infinite chakra he would tire eventually. Yes that means I think NAgato has a greater chakra pool then Madara...



Show PROOF.  This is just conjecture.  Show me a scan of Nagato's greater speed or greater chakra pool.  Don't just throw around things you _think_ you know and expect everyone to take it as fact.


This is what I'm talking about.  People are saying there's still room for debate, but all of their claims are entirely baseless.


----------



## trance (May 28, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> How fast is Madara compared to Nagato? Oh yeah t hats right Nagato is faster.



Prove he's faster.



> Im pretty sure Nagato has more stamina then Madara due to his Uzamaki ancestery. Remember this is not enhanced madara with hashi cells.



Madara pushed Hashirama to his limit. Hashirama's chakra quantity has been compared to Naruto with 50% of Kurama's chakra. Even at 50%, Kurama has _at least_ as much chakra as five other biju. Nagato doesn't have shit on Madara in stamina.


----------



## Thunder (May 28, 2014)

This fight will be a struggle of dōjutsu powers and Madara's not about to lose such a contest to Nagato anytime soon. 

Mainly because Madara mastered the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan to its  fullest extent, while Nagato was unable to achieve similar mastery over his  _borrowed_ Rinnegan; they weren't his eyes originally. Plus, both  Senju and Uchiha energies are  needed to awaken the Rinnegan's true  potential. Hence Nagato's inability  to control Gedō Mazō or use things  like Limbo: Hengoku.

The difference between Madara and Nagato *— *regarding their level of ocular mastery *—* may not seem like a huge deal at first, but it is. Zetsu explained what I mean perfectly with his analogy of a expert stone thrower beating a novice shuriken thrower. It's no different here. Nagato possesses better tools on paper but Madara is the better shinobi. 

Perfect  Susano is the ultimate expression of a Eternal Mangekyō  Sharingan wielders  visual prowess. And Madara will use it to wipe  Nagato off the map. Though the match will be interesting before Madara  unleashes his trump card.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (May 28, 2014)

I would have locked the thread a while ago, but I decided to keep it open since it seems to still be a source of actual discussion.


----------



## Thunder (May 28, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I would have locked the thread a while ago, but I decided to keep it open since it seems to still be a source of actual discussion.



It's like those old Itachi vs. Nagato threads. Those were kind of fun because of the good debates (and drama). Keep it running boss.

Geese know what's best.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (May 28, 2014)

My only question is why every one keeps saying PS sword this and that as if it wont get voided the second it touches Nagato's absorption barrier


----------



## trance (May 28, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> My only question is why every one keeps saying PS sword this and that as if it wont get voided the second it touches Nagato's absorption barrier



Because it casually cut apart a mountain range from many kilometres away [x].


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (May 28, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> My only question is why every one keeps saying PS sword this and that as if it wont get voided the second it touches Nagato's absorption barrier



Thats exactly what I said but no aparently Madara's susanoo is immune lol? Nagato easily sucked all of Killer bee's V2Jinchuriki form in like what 2 seconds I believe?

Yes Madara is far stronger then killer bee but his susanoo teqnique by itself is not tiers above the 8 tails jinchuriki... the destruction level is simliar. Killer bee can easily blow up mountains with a full power tailed beast bomb.


----------



## Bonly (May 28, 2014)

Man I thought this was a new thread for a second but it's a thread that's been dead for slightly over 3 months . Nagato still loses once PS comes out.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (May 28, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Because it casually cut apart a mountain range from many kilometres away [x].


Oh so now just because a move has great power Preta's technique does work give me a break! once chakra comes in contact with the absorption barrier its nullified


----------



## trance (May 28, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Oh so now just because a move has great power Preta's technique does work give me a break! once chakra comes in contact with the absorption barrier its nullified



It's not chakra. It's just an airslash generated by the sword swing.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (May 28, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> It's not chakra. It's just an airslash generated by the sword swing.


Oh i meant if the sword makes contact with him in that case he has Cerberus to tank it or he can stay in air


----------



## trance (May 28, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Oh i meant if the sword makes contact with him in that case he has Cerberus to tank it or he can stay in air



*If* it makes contact and I, for one, would not debate for Cerberus being able to tank a sword slash that hacked apart a mountain range.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (May 28, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> *If* it makes contact and I, for one, would not debate for Cerberus being able to tank a sword slash that hacked apart a mountain range.


Well if hit it doesn't die it multiplies


----------



## Fiiction (May 28, 2014)

Summonings are restricted, if not, what are we still debating about? Kyusanoo GG.

And and i still haven't found the counter to madara's genjutsu. You got one transcendent shinobi?


----------



## Fiiction (May 28, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Well if hit it doesn't die it multiplies



11 bijuudama obliterates it.


----------



## trance (May 28, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Well if hit it doesn't die it multiplies



He's _never_ been hit by something of the same caliber as Perfect Susanoo, not even close. You're skirting awfully close to a no limits fallacy.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (May 28, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> He's _never_ been hit by something of the same caliber as Perfect Susanoo, not even close. You're skirting awfully close to a no limits fallacy.


BT out of PS


----------



## sanninme rikudo (May 28, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Summonings are restricted, if not, what are we still debating about? Kyusanoo GG.
> 
> And and i still haven't found the counter to madara's genjutsu. You got one transcendent shinobi?


Why did  transcendent shinobi use GM as an argument then?


----------



## Bonly (May 28, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Why did  transcendent shinobi use GM as an argument then?



Either he forgot or he doesn't consider GM a beast.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Location: Valley of the end
> 
> Starting distance: 150 meters
> 
> ...


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (May 28, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Either he forgot or he doesn't consider GM a beast.



Yeah sorry I forgot it has been months since I made this


----------



## sanninme rikudo (May 28, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Ok then.. Genjutsu GG.


he doesn't need to look to fight hes a sensor


----------



## ARGUS (May 29, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Ok then.. Genjutsu GG.



Although i agree that maddara wins this,,, but definitely,,, not through genjutsu,,,
PS is the game changer,,,,, genjutsu is countered through

shared vision
chakkra rods,, 
chakra that is much stronger  than the sharingan,,, (thereby allowing nagato to break it),,, 
nagato being a sensor,,,


----------



## Icegaze (May 29, 2014)

why cant nagato use CT and have meteors maybe 3 at the most fall of PS? 
but yh i think PS wins in any case


----------



## The Prodigy (May 29, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> why cant nagato use CT and have meteors maybe 3 at the most fall of PS?
> but yh i think PS wins in any case



Nagato hasn't shown an ability to create meteors. In fact edo Madara's first meteor against the alliance was the first time we've seen anything of that level. 

But regardless like you said perfect susano ends it.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (May 29, 2014)

The Prodigy said:


> Nagato hasn't shown an ability to create meteors. In fact edo Madara's first meteor against the alliance was the first time we've seen anything of that level.
> 
> But regardless like you said perfect susano ends it.


BT out of PS


----------



## Fiiction (May 30, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Although i agree that maddara wins this,,, but definitely,,, not through genjutsu,,,
> PS is the game changer,,,,, genjutsu is countered through
> 
> shared vision
> ...



Shared vision with what? Summonings are restricted.
Chakra rods? What are they gonna do if he's caught in genjutsu?
Show me a scan of Nagato breaking out of a genjutsu on a level of a sharingan genjutsu. If not one, that reason is just baseless.
He can sense it yeah, but he's not gonna fight closing his eyes the whole fight. and can he fight while blind? Just saying he's a sensor isn't gonna cut it.


----------



## Fiiction (May 30, 2014)

The Prodigy said:


> Nagato hasn't shown an ability to create meteors. In fact edo Madara's first meteor against the alliance was the first time we've seen anything of that level.
> 
> But regardless like you said perfect susano ends it.



Nagato has made a meteor before, it's just a size of a  basketball compared to PS.


----------



## LeBoyka (May 31, 2014)

I'll go with the guy that was able to summon then put a susano over the kyuubi.

*Madara wins mid-dif. *


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (May 31, 2014)

LeBoyka said:


> I'll go with the guy that was able to summon then put a susano over the kyuubi.
> 
> *Madara wins mid-dif. *



People say nagato can't absorb PS in time with Madara hacking and slashing away but since you all made the argument PS attack's are shock waves then can't Nagato just reflect it with Deva path? Granted he can't hold it back forever but so what? He could reflect PS then dodge Madara's next swipe and just counter attack with Asura path and reapeat every five seconds.

Another thing Nagato is almost on par with Madara is stamina. He has the freaking RINNEGAN > EMS. Any person who has insane amounts of chakra and can master the rinnegan should be able to fight just as long as EMS Madara.


----------



## Bonly (May 31, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> People say nagato can't absorb PS in time with Madara hacking and slashing away but since you all made the argument PS attack's are shock waves then can't Nagato just reflect it with Deva path? Granted he can't hold it back forever but so what? He could reflect PS then dodge Madara's next swipe and just counter attack with Asura path and reapeat every five seconds.



Best Nagato could do would be to try and stop one of the slashes. Madara's PS has four swords and Nagato has a 5 second interval where he can't use it. Nagato's gonna get destroyed after the first shot of trying to stop it more or less.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Best Nagato could do would be to try and stop one of the slashes. *Madara's PS has four swords* and Nagato has a 5 second interval where he can't use it. Nagato's gonna get destroyed after the first shot of trying to stop it more or less.



Doesn't it only have 2? The things its other set of arms are holding are sheathes, not swords.


----------



## Bonly (May 31, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Doesn't it only have 2? The things its other set of arms are holding are sheathes, not swords.



Does it have 2? Either that or 4 arms, I tend to mix the two up but I know it has four of something lol


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Does it have 2? Either that or 4 arms, I tend to mix the two up but I know it has four of something lol



Yea those are arms, not swords lol. It has 4 arms, 2 swords and 2 sheathes in which the swords are kept.


----------



## Jagger (May 31, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Doesn't it only have 2? The things its other set of arms are holding are sheathes, not swords.


I don't see why he can't create more chakra swords quickly.

After all, he was able to use them along with the Kyuubi's Bijuudama in a very rapid sucession.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I don't see why he can't create more chakra swords quickly.
> 
> After all, he was able to use them along with the Kyuubi's Bijuudama in a very rapid sucession.



I'm not saying he can't, I'm simply saying what the form naturally comes equipped with, which is only 2 swords.


----------



## Jagger (May 31, 2014)

Oooh, I misunderstood.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (May 31, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Best Nagato could do would be to try and stop one of the slashes. Madara's PS has four swords and Nagato has a 5 second interval where he can't use it. Nagato's gonna get destroyed after the first shot of trying to stop it more or less.


He can always BT Madara out of PS


----------



## Bonly (May 31, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> He can always BT Madara out of PS



Madara can always have Susanoo grab him to hold him if he starts to get taken out. Kinda like how Kakashi used a chain to stop the pull for a while but PS won't give out as easily.


----------



## Fiiction (Jun 1, 2014)

Nagato will take about an hour to absorb PS


----------



## αce (Jun 1, 2014)

The idea that Nagato is absorbing PS shouldn't even be taken seriously. Did Madara's sword extend the entire way to the mountain range he casually sliced while flexing his muscles? No. Madara's sword _literally_ doesn't have to be within 200 feet of Nagato to kill him with a collateral shock wave of multiple perfect Susano-o swings. It takes more effort for Nagato to counter them with a CST than it does for Madara to swing a sword in perfect Susano-o. _One swing_ (which was simply a display of power) devastated an entire landscape and left two mountain tops completely sliced in half. Three-four swings and Nagato would just laugh and accept his death.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jun 1, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Madara can always have Susanoo grab him to hold him if he starts to get taken out. Kinda like how Kakashi used a chain to stop the pull for a while but PS won't give out as easily.


Before the Susanoo is grabbed he can always make an attempt to attack him while hes unprotected if not then Preta 's absorption barrier makes contact with PS and its nullified


----------



## Bonly (Jun 1, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Before the Susanoo is grabbed he can always make an attempt to attack him while hes unprotected



As we have seen a Susanoo user can still use Susanoo while outside of it and Madara when in PS is usually in the the head. Unless Nagato is as high up PS head as in a few meters in front of it, there is no chance that Nagato can actually do anything that would land on Madara before he can move one of it's very fast hands to grab him.



> if not then Preta 's absorption barrier makes contact with PS and its nullified



Madara PS still has four arms and two swords(ha ha got it right this time), if Nagato starts wasting his time using Preta path to try and absorb PS, PS can still use one of it's extra arms to take a swords and slash away. Nagato isn't absorbing shockwaves.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Jun 1, 2014)

Bonly said:


> As we have seen a Susanoo user can still use Susanoo while outside of it and Madara when in PS is usually in the the head. Unless Nagato is as high up PS head as in a few meters in front of it, there is no chance that Nagato can actually do anything that would land on Madara before he can move one of it's very fast hands to grab him.
> 
> 
> 
> Madara PS still has four arms and two swords(ha ha got it right this time), if Nagato starts wasting his time using Preta path to try and absorb PS, PS can still use one of it's extra arms to take a swords and slash away.* Nagato isn't absorbing shockwaves*.



No he isn't but he sure can deflect/counter it with his gravitational powers.


----------



## Bonly (Jun 1, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> No he isn't but he sure can deflect/counter it with his gravitational powers.



Sure he can try to deflect one swing but then he's open for about 5 second upon which comes another sword to end him.​​


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Jun 1, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Sure he can try to deflect one swing but then he's open for about 5 second upon which comes another sword to end him.​​



You have seen the battle of him running from naruto in enraged six tail state right? Your telling me if he can run that fast he cant dodge PS?


----------



## Bonly (Jun 1, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> You have seen the battle of him running from naruto in enraged six tail state right? Your telling me if he can run that fast he cant dodge PS?



He won't be doing much running if he stops to use Preta path and then use Deva path to try and block a slash and even then he isn't outrunning the sheer AoE and speed of the slash.​​


----------



## Joakim3 (Jun 1, 2014)

Dear god this thread is still going on 

The *ONLY* way Madara would loose this match is if he idiotically attempted CqC and got himself caught in the _Shurado_ + _Fujustu Kuyin_ combo hax the way Killer B was (thus not being able to use _Sasuno'o_)

But seeing Madara isn't stupid and happens to be facing a man wielding his eyes, he won't do that. He'll immediately go V3 Sasuno'o dance to test Nagato, realize he going to get overwhelmed and then proceed to bring out PS at which point he 2 shots Nagato 

/thread


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jun 1, 2014)

Bonly said:


> As we have seen a Susanoo user can still use Susanoo while outside of it and Madara when in PS is usually in the the head. Unless Nagato is as high up PS head as in a few meters in front of it, there is no chance that Nagato can actually do anything that would land on Madara before he can move one of it's very fast hands to grab him.
> 
> 
> 
> Madara PS still has four arms and two swords(ha ha got it right this time), if Nagato starts wasting his time using Preta path to try and absorb PS, PS can still use one of it's extra arms to take a swords and slash away. Nagato isn't absorbing shockwaves.


Your not understanding the concept of Preta's ability. Once a ninjutsu comes in contact with that barrier its voided..


----------



## Bonly (Jun 1, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Your not understanding the concept of Preta's ability. Once a ninjutsu comes in contact with that barrier its voided..



You're not understanding the process of Preta path. It'll take some time to absorb something that big.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 2, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Your not understanding the concept of Preta's ability. Once a ninjutsu comes in contact with that barrier its voided..



You're not understanding the mechanics of his abilities. It doesn't absorb instantly. Nagato's variation may be stronger than Pain's, but it still took the Preta Realm body a significant amount of time to absorb a small katon from Jiraiya. It isn't absorbing anything near the scale of perfect Susano'o.


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## T-Bag (Jun 2, 2014)

Lol say he did absorb perfect susano, madara will just materialize another. the thought of nagato beating madara is laughable, i think kishit made it pretty clear uchiha madara and hashirama senju are in a league of their own.. and no one else could oppose them. these guys are legends, they even have their own statues in valley of the End for fucks sake


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 2, 2014)

Bonly said:


> You're not understanding the process of Preta path. It'll take some time to absorb something that big.



When has the _time_ of absorption ever been cited or exploited? Surely stategists like Shikaku would have referenced it as a legit strategy, it would have been mentioned. Never before have jutsu with large quantities ever been off-putting. 

If it was a plausible strategy, why would Itachi focus on attacking last minute rather than making Nagato waste time absorbing Susanoo whilst taking advantage of that?

This reminds me of the time when people were saying chakra shrouds and elemental fusions weren't absorbent. 



Atlantic Storm said:


> You're not understanding the mechanics of his abilities. It doesn't absorb instantly. Nagato's variation may be stronger than Pain's, but it still took the Preta Realm body a significant amount of time to absorb a small katon from Jiraiya. It isn't absorbing anything near the scale of perfect Susano'o.



Jutsu get nullified upon contact. We've seen jutsu such as FRS and chakra armours/shrouds get absorbed very quickly. 

Perfect Susanoo would just get absorbed after being nullified.



T-Bag said:


> Lol say he did absorb perfect susano, madara will just materialize another. the thought of nagato beating madara is laughable, i think kishit made it pretty clear uchiha madara and hashirama senju are in a league of their own.. and no one else could oppose them. these guys are legends, they even have their own statues in valley of the End for fucks sake



Materialise another while giving Nagato more physical+physical energy is a decent strategy?

Your only argument are statues whilst acknowledging PS is absorbent.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2014)

The problem with absorbing P-Susano'o is the shockwave it creates cuts mountains in half. Nagato may absorb the thing, though certainly Fujutsu Kyuuin has no feats of absorbing anything on that level, but Nagato would still be killed off by the shock-wave. Nagato would be better off evading like the Gokage did rather than taking the sword straight on, but that still leaves the issue of how he deals with P-Susano'o. He could probably blow it back-wards with CST, but than he's one cool-down and Madara finishes him. Nagato simply can't defeat P-Susano'o with what he's shownl. Granted we've never seen the full strength of Nagato with Rinnegan, as his Rinnegan was hampered as an Edo, but still nothing indicates he's at that level.


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## Cognitios (Jun 2, 2014)

Didn't it take a few seconds to absorb Bee's cloak in v2?
Nagato isn't absorbing anything mountain sized before it does some extremely serious damage, if not outright kills him
But Madara can probably just regen the Susanoo as fast, if not faster than nagato can absorb it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 2, 2014)

Tbh, a lot of posters doubted Preta could absorb chakra shrouds and Kekkei Genkai chakra prior the war. The entry of Preta Path actually suggested that it could absorb all jutsu, regardless. Naturally the war showed this to be true.
Susanoo is just a big chakra construct, it can be absorbed, it is just logical. Lets note the _consistent_ trend wherein the jutsu has always been *nullified* prior being absorbed.

About the time it takes to absorb, I challenge any poster to show where absorbing time was ever a problem (certainly isn't suggested in the DB entry). 

Though about the shock wave, I'm unsure why we haven't considered why Nagato can't evade whilst simultaneously keeping the Preta barrier up (as and when he needs it). 

I don't see why Madara would decide to use Perfect Susanoo against a Rinnegan user. Using close combat with well timed Ninjutsu/Genjutsu is far more likely to be effective. Especially when Madara himself, just like Nagato, has the ability to end the fight with a touch (his chakra absorption). The fact Madara can predict Nagato's movements helps things too.

If Madara's going to win this, he's not going to waste precious stamina and mental energy on Perfect Susanoo. He's better off using his chakra for more productive uses. Even a smaller scale Susanoo would be more productive.

As we've seen, the rules of combat in this series tend to change when foes have certain abilities such as advanced chakra absorption and if they have particular abilities such as Gudou-Dama or Kamui.


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## T-Bag (Jun 2, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Materialise another while giving Nagato more physical+physical energy is a decent strategy?
> 
> Your only argument are statues whilst acknowledging PS is absorbent.



dont be ridiculous

nagato does not stand a chance against a legendary old wolf like madara


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## Jagger (Jun 2, 2014)

No one doubted whether Susano'O is capable of being absorbed by Preta Path. It's a chakra construct, it's just the time it'd take to absorb all of it. It did take a couple of seconds for Nagato to take the chakra away from Bee's V2 chakra cloak and it's extremely small while compared to a gigantic thing such as Preta Path, so there's that.

The conclusion Nagato taking more than a couple of seconds to suck away PS' chakra is based on a logical conclusion.

But I agree with Munboy that Madara could end this with a Genjutsu followed by another attack to end this. The problem is that Nagato is not a fighter that slacks such as Madara (let's be honest, he might underestimate Nagato because he'd only see him as someone that can't awaken the Rinnegan's true potential) and, if things go from bad to worse to the Uchiha, he might need to use his strongest jutsu to escape from grasp of Nagato's jutsu (for example, CST).


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jun 2, 2014)

I know we have all been arguing about the PS vs Nagato's absorbing and deflection techniques but does Madara have anything to counter CT?

He has PS and he can swing his sword but are PS shockwaves >  CT? imo no.

Don't forget when Itachi,Bee, and Naruto destroyed the CT gravity well/core Nagato was not at full power because Madara said himself when you are edo your rinnegan is quite inferior.

What do we know that is fact that living EMS madara has that can destroy a full power CT?


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## Cognitios (Jun 3, 2014)

If 8th Tail Naruto is able to break out of it I see no reason why PS can't.
PS has been shown to be around Kyuubi level in just about everything, I doubt durability is left out of this.


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## trance (Jun 3, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> If 8th Tail Naruto is able to break out of it I see no reason why PS can't.
> PS has been shown to be around Kyuubi level in just about everything, I doubt durability is left out of this.



Especially since it's shown to tank a bijudama from Kurama without so much as a scratch.


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## Fiiction (Jun 3, 2014)

Why is this not locked? No one has came up with a valid answer to Nagato winning except him having preta and asura path.


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## trance (Jun 3, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Why is this not locked? No one has came up with a valid answer to Nagato winning except him having preta and *asura path*.



Why would Shurado matter at all against Madara?


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## ARGUS (Jun 3, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Why would Shurado matter at all against Madara?



Apart from CQC yes it doesn't really matter as anything above V2 tanks all of its attacks


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## Fiiction (Jun 3, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Why would Shurado matter at all against Madara?





ARGUS said:


> Apart from CQC yes it doesn't really matter as anything above V2 tanks all of its attacks



I just read people's posts. Imo it wouldn't even damage susanoo let alone v3, but idk.


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## trance (Jun 3, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Apart from CQC yes it doesn't really matter as anything above V2 tanks all of its attacks



Even in CQC, I'd still give the edge to Madara even without Susanoo. With his gunbai, Madara can do some pretty impressive shit like form a barrier that completely shielded himself and Obito from the chakra stakes that was able to pierce Gyuki and his famous "Uchihagaeshi".


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## sanninme rikudo (Jun 3, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> You're not understanding the mechanics of his abilities. It doesn't absorb instantly. Nagato's variation may be stronger than Pain's, but it still took the Preta Realm body a significant amount of time to absorb a small katon from Jiraiya. It isn't absorbing anything near the scale of perfect Susano'o.


You keep wasting your time saying the time it takes Nagato to absorb it but no thats not the point im getting at once the PS is in contact with the barrier its not doing much its all ready nullified


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## sanninme rikudo (Jun 3, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> Lol say he did absorb perfect susano, madara will just materialize another. the thought of nagato beating madara is laughable, i think kishit made it pretty clear uchiha madara and hashirama senju are in a league of their own.. and no one else could oppose them. these guys are legends, they even have their own statues in valley of the End for fucks sake


If Madara would attempt something that trivial then i can't even begin to see why your gasing him up with all that legendary this legendary that mumbo jumbo or begin to see how he wins this. Im sure Madara won't bring PS out again that be really stupid of a guy who been around for awhile and knows a load of battle techniques


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> dont be ridiculous
> 
> nagato does not stand a chance against a legendary old wolf like madara



In other words you have no substantive argument.



Jagger said:


> it's just the time it'd take to absorb all of it. It did take a couple of seconds for Nagato to take the chakra away from Bee's V2 chakra cloak and it's extremely small while compared to a gigantic thing such as Preta Path, so there's that.
> 
> The conclusion Nagato taking more than a couple of seconds to suck away PS' chakra is based on a logical conclusion.



Lets think about this, Preta Path simply reverses chakra flow. If it takes Preta Path more than a few seconds to absorb PS, then it must mean it takes more than a few seconds for PS to materialise (exposing Madara to the same time-gap problem).

It took Naruto a few seconds to form FRS and FRS was absorbed in a few seconds; it took a few seconds to make the chakra flow, so it took the same time to reverse said flow.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I know we have all been arguing about the PS vs Nagato's absorbing and deflection techniques but does Madara have anything to counter CT?
> 
> He has PS and he can swing his sword but are PS shockwaves >  CT? imo no.
> 
> ...



That's true. 

It doesn't help that we've not seen what _Nagato_ was truly capable of. His CT size should be at least somewhere between God Realm and Madara's. Either way we know with CT capability it is: Madara>Nagato>God Realm.
Only Nagato's limit is unknown, maybe he can make the giant CT Madara create (only just one compared to Madara's multiple)?

*But* Perfect Susanoo's slash is still far superior to Yasaka's Magatama. Going by Sasuke, we could say that PS could slash through CT relatively easily. (Sasuke and Madara's PS have the *exact same* functions.)
Obviously its no Bijuu-Dama, or FRS Bijuu-Dama, but it can casually take apart structures larger than God Realm's CT. If we assume Nagato's CT capability is lower than Madara's, then it PS should be able to take CT.

The only way I see CT being a problem (though this is arguably OOC) is if CT touches Madara _directly_. Then there are certain combinations (such as CSTing the orb to the sky) which can be used. But Madara can absorb chakra, so there is also that to consider.

----

One thing we can consider is Nagato's Ninjutsu hype, we know all the generic Ninjutsu and elements can be used by him (similar to Hiruzen's elements and other jutsu like clones etc). However now you can arguably add in Ninjutsu such as fusions and Yin/Yang style because we saw Madara use such powers with his Rinnegan; the eye has that jutsu hype. Obviously things like Gudou-Dama would be out of the picture (mixing 4+ elements was suggested to be beyond any bloodline capability).

I'm just saying, this debate boiled down to PS vs Preta Path *without* considering Nagato's Ninjutsu abilities. To add perspective to how good they are, Nagato was able to sense Kabuto who took measures not to be detected. In other words Nagato's sensory ability surpassed sensors such as Muu and the entire shinobi alliance's sensor ninja. Something that is consistent with his jutsu mastery hype.


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## Ninjaalex2 (Jun 3, 2014)

I'd say Nagato would have the upper hand until PS comes out, then it's just a couple sword swings.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jun 3, 2014)

Ninjaalex2 said:


> I'd say Nagato would have the upper hand until PS comes out, then it's just a couple sword swings.


And when Preta's absorption barrier makes contact with it, its rendered useless so thats not a problem


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## JuicyG (Sep 30, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Location: Valley of the end
> 
> Starting distance: 150 meters
> 
> ...




I'm giving it to EMS Madara due to PS and haxx Katon's. He is also portrayed higher than Nagato


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Sep 30, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I'm giving it to EMS Madara due to PS and haxx Katon's. He is also portrayed higher than Nagato



I cannot believe you dugg this up lol but ok. Nagato barrages Madara with asura abilities then uses CT unto which Madara uses Susanoo ultimate attack to counter  however CT ripps the earth underneath madara then Nagato precedes to use max speed to go underneath madara and soul rips him gg


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## Ashi (Sep 30, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I cannot believe you dugg this up lol but ok. Nagato barrages Madara with asura abilities then uses CT unto which Madara uses Susanoo ultimate attack to counter  however CT ripps the earth underneath madara then Nagato precedes to use max speed to go underneath madara and soul rips him gg



He's never show to be able to use that many abilities at once


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## Dominus (Oct 1, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> He's never show to be able to use that many abilities at once



Against Naruto and Killer Bee he used  at the same time, then he used  and then .


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Oct 8, 2014)

Alot of people think that Nagato can't absorb PS attacks fully and that is debatable. HOWEVER. I have a different question.? Can Nagato soften the PS blow with ST and Preta absorbing technique combo so it would do minimal damage?


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## Jagger (Oct 8, 2014)

I think it's more smart for him to try to absorb as much as he can from the blade than try to "soften" the blow with ST since not only it won't stop the attack, but Nagato would need around five seconds to use the attack once more.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Oct 8, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I think it's more smart for him to try to absorb as much as he can from the blade than try to "soften" the blow with ST since not only it won't stop the attack, but Nagato would need around five seconds to use the attack once more.



This may be a dumb question but when in the manga has EMS madara used mountain destroying range PS several times in a matter of seconds? I could be very wrong but I only remember him using PS mountain busters as a one time slice deal?


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## Dominus (Oct 9, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> This may be a dumb question but when in the manga has EMS madara used mountain destroying range PS several times in a matter of seconds? I could be very wrong but I only remember him using PS mountain busters as a one time slice deal?



 he tries to kill Hashirama with a Perfect Susanoo slash, but when the First Hokage blocks and attacks him, Madara uses the other hand of the Perfect Susanoo to .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 9, 2014)

Just sayin' Nagato's Ninjutsu mastery has been left to the imagination now and we've seen snippets that Rinnegan master can cover a wide array of jutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 9, 2014)

Yeah that C rank fuuton would come in handy here


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah that C rank fuuton would come in handy here



Except were were canonically told the mastery was more than that. Madara showed us how far the mastery extends. The fact Nagato outclassed an entire sensing team helps matters too.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 9, 2014)

Madara swings his ps sword, nagato uses a amped up st to defend from the attack, madara swings his sword again


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## Hachibi (Oct 9, 2014)

This thread is gogol tier in number of page compared to non-convo thread 

Anyways Madara win with Perfect Susano.


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## Katana King (Oct 9, 2014)

An exhausted Nagato said he could have made an even bigger CT. Nagato easily swallows PS.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 9, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Madara swings his ps sword, nagato uses a amped up st to defend from the attack, madara swings his sword again


Or Nagato starts absorbing PS and voids the whole thing


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 9, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Madara swings his ps sword, nagato uses a amped up st to defend from the attack, madara swings his sword again



Nagato can keep ST as a barrier as he's done three times in the manga. 
Madara will need to get closer... problem with that is he'll just have PS absorbed.



Katana King said:


> An exhausted Nagato said he could have made an even bigger CT. Nagato easily swallows PS.



To be fair, PS should be capable of slashing CT. Unless Nagato keeps making CT orbs.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 10, 2014)

Madara know's exactly how pretha path works, probably more so then nagato, he simply attacks the ground next to nagato, and the shockwave/debris kills nagato


madara wins mid difficulty


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## Thdyingbreed (Oct 10, 2014)

Nagato can't absorb Perfect Susanoo shockwaves because they aren't Ninjutsu and even if he counters with a Shinra Tensei he has a cool down and Madara can simply swing his sword again and Nagato dies.

Also for Nagato too absorb Perfect Susano he actually has too get close too it which will lead too hi death Nagato can't beat Perfect Susanoo it's just too much for the guy.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 10, 2014)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Nagato can't absorb Perfect Susanoo shockwaves because they aren't Ninjutsu and even if he counters with a Shinra Tensei he has a cool down and Madara can simply swing his sword again and Nagato dies.
> 
> Also for Nagato too absorb Perfect Susano he actually has too get close too it which will lead too hi death Nagato can't beat Perfect Susanoo it's just too much for the guy.


What if by the time Madara brings out PS (cuz if he doesn't he gets soloed quickly) Nagato is already in absorption range than what Nagato absorbs PS and voids it entirely


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## Veracity (Oct 11, 2014)

Madara has the reaction and speed to start forming PS after a TBB went off in his face, finish forming PS and jump on the kyuubis forehead. His PS formation speed is far faster then anything Nagato can do .  ASSUMING Nagato absorbs PS( fucking lol) then Madara instantly reforms his PS, distances hisself, and vaporizes Nagato.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 11, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Madara has the reaction and speed to start forming PS after a TBB went off in his face, finish forming PS and jump on the kyuubis forehead. His PS formation speed is far faster then anything Nagato can do .  ASSUMING Nagato absorbs PS( fucking lol) then Madara instantly reforms his PS, distances hisself, and vaporizes Nagato.


When PS is gone before he distances himself Nagato can CST him


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Oct 11, 2014)

I still don't understand how EMS eyes > Rinnegan. When the Rinnegan is the ultimate visual jutsu....

This is Madara with no Hashi cells. Surely Nagato can find a opening. A feat that some many people forget Nagato has is he can Fly. Whats stopping him from playing jump rope with PS shock waves?

Nagato has more feats then madara in this fight... And he has the chakra reveres and stamina to match Madara. I will not concede defeat to madara unless his supporters can give more data concerning his abilities besides PS.

Because dozens and dozens of posts already proved how Nagato at the very least can cancel out PS swings.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 11, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Madara know's exactly how pretha path works, probably more so then nagato, he simply attacks the ground next to nagato, and the shockwave/debris kills nagato
> 
> 
> madara wins mid difficulty



Madara himself says you have to go CQC or for sealing jutsu to get past the Preta Path. So your strategy falls apart because it fails to comprehend Madara's own Rinnegan thoughts. Furthermore Shinra Tensei makes your strategy completely invalid; Madara would know that too.


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## Veracity (Oct 11, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> When PS is gone before he distances himself Nagato can CST him



Madara has a Shunshin that can blitz NARUTO Sage mode. He can clear a distance before Nagato can do anything. And like I just said, Madara can reform PS faster then Nagato can even react to ... So ?


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 12, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Madara has a Shunshin that can blitz NARUTO Sage mode. He can clear a distance before Nagato can do anything. And like I just said, Madara can reform PS faster then Nagato can even react to ... So ?


Then Nagato uses BT and drags him over by force


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 12, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara himself says you have to go CQC or for sealing jutsu to get past the Preta Path. So your strategy falls apart because it fails to comprehend Madara's own Rinnegan thoughts. Furthermore Shinra Tensei makes your strategy completely invalid; Madara would know that too.



So why are we ruling out susano as cqc?


a shockwave will surely kill nagato as he wouldn't be able to absorb it



madara will swing his giant sword again once nagato uses st, nagato isn't blowing away ps with a st


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 12, 2014)

Some Nagato supporter please enlighten me as to how Nagato can get past mountain-cleaving shockwaves.

I beg to know that.


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## Ashi (Oct 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara himself says you have to go CQC or for sealing jutsu to get past the Preta Path. So your strategy falls apart because it fails to comprehend Madara's own Rinnegan thoughts. Furthermore Shinra Tensei makes your strategy completely invalid; Madara would know that too.



Madara can't coordinate Susanoo and Preta Path


Hashirama stopped Preta via wood dragon


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 13, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Some Nagato supporter please enlighten me as to how Nagato can get past mountain-cleaving shockwaves.
> 
> I beg to know that.


Once he starts absorbing PS he doesn't need to worry about them. Also he can BT him out of PS and the second he's out of PS CST him


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 13, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> So why are we ruling out susano as cqc?
> 
> 
> a shockwave will surely kill nagato as he wouldn't be able to absorb it
> ...



Why would Madara use something that would be absorbed? Is he in the mood to donate chakra?

A shock wave that can be repelled very easily. I like how you forget the ST variants that can be held up.

Furthermore why haven't we seen Hashirama, Kayuga, Juubidara and Six Paths Naruto not being beaten by these almighty slashes?



TensaXZangetsu said:


> Madara can't coordinate Susanoo and Preta Path
> 
> Hashirama stopped Preta via wood dragon



What the hell are you talking about?

Madara ITT has no Preta Path. Furthermore Preta Path was used while he had Susanoo.

Hashirama used a dragon which works exactly like Preta Path to stop Madara prior Madara doing his absorbing business.

I asked what the hell you're talking about because you cannot make what you said relevant to this thread.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Oct 13, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Some Nagato supporter please enlighten me as to how Nagato can get past mountain-cleaving shockwaves.
> 
> I beg to know that.



Nagato can fly..........................................................the most overlooked ability he has that people tend to forget in every single thread including him.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why would Madara use something that would be absorbed? Is he in the mood to donate chakra?



Nagato has to make it pass the shockwaves to absorb PS with pretha path and that's not happening.

 

madara knows exactly how pretha functions and he will easily exploit it's weakness.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A shock wave that can be repelled very easily. I like how you forget the ST variants that can be held up.





A shock wave probably can be repelled, but shock *waves* are going to kill nagato, nagato cannot spam st's as easily as mads can spam the shock waves by swinging his sword, nagato is simply out gunned.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Furthermore why haven't we seen Hashirama, Kayuga, Juubidara and Six Paths Naruto not being beaten by these almighty slashes?





nagato would be low diffed by every character you just named.




Hashirama can heal and has his own megazords to stand up to ps, everybody else on this list has specific  chakra and it should be self explanatory so im not going to entertain this by stating the numerous differences between them and nagato, everyone on that list would low diff nagato.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 13, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Nagato has to make it pass the shockwaves to absorb PS with pretha path and that's not happening.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Once PS makes contact with the absorption barrier its useless he doesn't need to worry about shockwaves


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Once PS makes contact with the absorption barrier its useless he doesn't need to worry about shockwaves



 


how is nagato making contact with PS before it swings it's sword? 


and since when has nagato displayed the ability to absorb something the size of ps so fast?


we all know pretha has the ability to absorb chakra, yet you guys cannot logically explain how nagato is getting the opportunity to approach ps before it changes the landscape he is standing on, he's not exactly mobile, as noted by kabuto.


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## Veracity (Oct 13, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Then Nagato uses BT and drags him over by force



Kakashi could pull a fucking chain out his pocket and toss it around a stone and forcibly work against the force of BT. Kakashi is less reflexive, physically inferior, and doesn't have the ability to instantly manifest a Sussano. Madara manifests a Sussano to stop himself, levels up to PS and cleaves Nagato in two.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Kakashi could pull a fucking chain out his pocket and toss it around a stone and forcibly work against the force of BT. Kakashi is less reflexive, physically inferior, and doesn't have the ability to instantly manifest a Sussano. Madara manifests a Sussano to stop himself, levels up to PS and cleaves Nagato in two.


Yea but that was a pain being controlled by an emaciated Nagato. i doubt there would be any time to do that if Nagato himself uses BT. And if he forms it while still using BT he'll get dragged out of susanoo from there a CST would do it


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## Veracity (Oct 15, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yea but that was a pain being controlled by an emaciated Nagato. i doubt there would be any time to do that if Nagato himself uses BT. And if he forms it while still using BT he'll get dragged out of susanoo from there a CST would do it



The difference between that version of pain and Nagatos BT is far lower then the physical strength of Sussano and reaction difference between EMS Madara and Pain Arc Kakashi. Nagato isn't BT'ing Madara into a follow up Attack before he can react are you fucking kidding me ? Nagatos BT speed, reactions, and Justu activation would literally have to be on a juubi Jin's level if you assume he's going to outright blitz Madara before he can even think about forming Sussano .

Why would CT drag Madara out of a solid object like PS or any version of Sussano ?


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 15, 2014)

they forget garra had to hold down susano before he was able to pull madara out meaning, nagato would need to anchor down susano and some how pull madara from it, but even then the odds of it working is 0% when, kakashi can stop himself from being pulled with simple chains, susano can obviously stop madara from being pulled


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## Veracity (Oct 16, 2014)

They also forget that the version of Sussano Madara was pulled out of clearly has holes:
5 meters
5 meters
While PS has the same bones, plus skin, plus clothing then plus armor. It has no holes at all.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2014)

There is no need to anchor Madara down when you can directly absorb Susanoo. 

Also it is laughable if we're comparing a distanced Deva BT to a full powered prime Nagato's BT as a counterargument to Nagato winning.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There is no need to anchor Madara down when you can directly absorb Susanoo.
> 
> Also it is laughable if we're comparing a distanced Deva BT to a full powered prime Nagato's BT as a counterargument to Nagato winning.



I already countered this arguement by stating nagato is not mobile enough to get close to ps before madara can swing his sword and change the landscape he is standing on as stated by kabuto.

Kcm naruto also causual reacted to nagato's bt so my point still stands


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I already countered this arguement by stating nagato is not mobile enough to get close to ps before madara can swing his sword and change the landscape he is standing on as stated by kabuto.
> 
> Kcm naruto also causual reacted to nagato's bt so my point still stands



You failed to consider "prime" Nagato who is mobile enough. 
Also when you can tell me why a simple ST barrier doesn't lolfodderise the slashes, that will be brilliant too. 

KCM Naruto reacted by hitting a rock, wow. Now try comprehending why using an emaciated Nagato with a fake Rinnegan isn't comparable to a *prime* Nagato who is healthy.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You failed to consider "prime" Nagato who is mobile enough.



the burden of proof is on you to prove prime nagato is more mobile then the nagato who absorbed V2 bee's chakra, as far as im concerned once nagato absorbed bee's chakra he was in his prime state.

kishi never retconned his speed nor made any comment he would be faster i don't see why we should.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Also when you can tell me why a simple ST barrier doesn't lolfodderise the slashes, that will be brilliant too.



do you have scans of nagato's st barrier and or proof of it repelling something on the scale of perfect susano slashes??



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> KCM Naruto reacted by hitting a rock, wow. Now try comprehending why using an emaciated Nagato with a fake Rinnegan isn't comparable to a *prime* Nagato who is healthy.



kcm naruto reacted, that is my point, madara can easily bust out ps and stop bt from pulling him, if kakashi stopped deva realm with chains, and before you claim nagato is on another scale then deva path which is true i ask you to consider how much of a difference perfect susano is from kakashi's chains.

well as iv'e stated before the burden of proof is on you to provide that "prime nagato" bt is by far stronger then edo nagato's bt.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> the burden of proof is on you to prove prime nagato is more mobile then the nagato who absorbed V2 bee's chakra, as far as im concerned once nagato absorbed bee's chakra he was in his prime state.
> 
> kishi never retconned his speed nor made any comment he would be faster i don't see why we should.



Tell me again why a prime Nagato was born immobile. I'm interested because supposedly the fact alone isn't enough to sway you, despite us seeing via flashbacks that Nagato wasn't always immobile. 

Kishi said Nagato wasn't mobile enough. That in-itself says a mobile Nagato, with the very impressive speed feats he had while being deemed immobile, would be faster than his crippled self. (Hint: he'd actually move more!)



> do you have scans of nagato's st barrier and or proof of it repelling something on the scale of perfect susano slashes??



Read the my replies in previous pages; replies to *you* IIRC.



> well as iv'e stated before the burden of proof is on you to provide that "prime nagato" bt is by far stronger then edo nagato's bt.



The onus is on you, actually. We know that chakra deprived shinobi aren't as capable as their rejuvenated selves. We know Edo Tensei gives fake Rinnegan; Rinnegan isn't properly replicated with ET. We were told Nagato's Six Paths>>>Pain's. 

Yet you still think a prime Nagato is going to be the same as a weakened Nagato's BT. That's a big claim on your end, not a logical one at that. Thus you should be proving this.


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## Veracity (Oct 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There is no need to anchor Madara down when you can directly absorb Susanoo.
> 
> Also it is laughable if we're comparing a distanced Deva BT to a full powered prime Nagato's BT as a counterargument to Nagato winning.



Pretty sure we both agreed Nagato has a better gravity pull. It doesn't matter though as he's not pulling EMS Madara of all people into a blitz when he can manifest a solid chakra defense by thought .


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tell me again why a prime Nagato was born immobile. I'm interested because supposedly the fact alone isn't enough to sway you, despite us seeing via flashbacks that Nagato wasn't always immobile.
> 
> Kishi said Nagato wasn't mobile enough. That in-itself says a mobile Nagato, with the very impressive speed feats he had while being deemed immobile, would be faster than his crippled self. (Hint: he'd actually move more!)




ok so in other words you have no proof other then your own interpretation ok got it.

Nagato is cripple and needs people to help him walk, after absorbing bee's chakra he was able to move around on his own, as a child nagato was never labeled to be fast in particular so it's a stretch to say he can cross over to madara all before madara can swing his susano sword, a big stretch especially when we consider the fact that madara doesn't need to be in immediate range of nagato because of ps great range but ima leave it up to you to provide the scans of prime nagato's amazing speed feats 





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Read the my replies in previous pages; replies to *you* IIRC.



read them and answered them.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The onus is on you, actually. We know that chakra deprived shinobi aren't as capable as their rejuvenated selves. We know Edo Tensei gives fake Rinnegan; Rinnegan isn't properly replicated with ET. We were told Nagato's Six Paths>>>Pain's.



it was never stated that having a fake rinnengon makes st or bt any less potent, as this was never noted when nagato used any of his moves so the burden of proof is on you.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yet you still think a prime Nagato is going to be the same as a weakened Nagato's BT. That's a big claim on your end, not a logical one at that. Thus you should be proving this.



yet the manga never once claimed edo nagato's moves to be inferior to alive nagato, i suggest you reread the context of madara's comment and stop trying to generalize it across the board, until then the burden of proof is on you claiming something that the manga has never mentioned


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 16, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> they forget garra had to hold down susano before he was able to pull madara out meaning, nagato would need to anchor down susano and some how pull madara from it, but even then the odds of it working is 0% when, kakashi can stop himself from being pulled with simple chains, susano can obviously stop madara from being pulled


Yea good try but remember when Pain got the Nail from the wood plank did that would plank move or was it only the nail.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 16, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> how is nagato making contact with PS before it swings it's sword?
> 
> 
> and since when has nagato displayed the ability to absorb something the size of ps so fast?
> ...


Well for starters the ST barrier can be held up until he reaches him and when he does it makes contact with the absorption barrier and thats it. 
And did i ever say he absorbs PS instantly. i said it voids it.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 16, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The difference between that version of pain and Nagatos BT is far lower then the physical strength of Sussano and reaction difference between EMS Madara and Pain Arc Kakashi. Nagato isn't BT'ing Madara into a follow up Attack before he can react are you fucking kidding me ? Nagatos BT speed, reactions, and Justu activation would literally have to be on a juubi Jin's level if you assume he's going to outright blitz Madara before he can even think about forming Sussano .
> 
> Why would CT drag Madara out of a solid object like PS or any version of Sussano ?


A BT will drag him out of it. If Gaara's sand did the trick he should do it too. And what do you mean outright blitz him i mean BT him out of the Susanoo then CST him.
I dont know why would CT drag him out of PS how would i know that answer if thats not what i said. Read clearly before coming at someone


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 16, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I already countered this arguement by stating nagato is not mobile enough to get close to ps before madara can swing his sword and change the landscape he is standing on as stated by kabuto.
> 
> Kcm naruto also causual reacted to nagato's bt so my point still stands


The guy was pretty quick while mobile why won't he be quicker when he's completely mobile not to mention in his prime. And why would he put up another PS after getting dragged out of one


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## Veracity (Oct 17, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> A BT will drag him out of it. If Gaara's sand did the trick he should do it too. And what do you mean outright blitz him i mean BT him out of the Susanoo then CST him.
> I dont know why would CT drag him out of PS how would i know that answer if thats not what i said. Read clearly before coming at someone



Gaara dragged Madara out of a Sussano with holes: [4]
[4]
PS has the bones, skin, clothes, and armor. It has no holes at all. Nagato isn't pulling Madara out of that. It's also to note that Gaara can pull Madara out At any angle , while nagato has to pull out at a linear angle.

You're assuming he's going to pull Madara out of Sussano( already proven wrong ) and then land CST without Madara being able to react. That's a blitz, and that's not happening. Even if we assume Nagato manages to pull Madara out of a lower form of Sussano, Madara just realizes this and activates PS, and shockwaves his ass whiles preoccupied with a BT pull.


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## Trojan (Oct 17, 2014)

I'm impressed honestly that his topic lasted 39 pages!
usually it's the nonsensical PS's word that ends everything with 1 hit, and it stops at that.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Gaara dragged Madara out of a Sussano with holes: However, sasuke's statement about two being better than one makes sense in the context of naruto stating he wants to fight her.
> However, sasuke's statement about two being better than one makes sense in the context of naruto stating he wants to fight her.
> PS has the bones, skin, clothes, and armor. It has no holes at all. Nagato isn't pulling Madara out of that. It's also to note that Gaara can pull Madara out At any angle , while nagato has to pull out at a linear angle.
> 
> You're assuming he's going to pull Madara out of Sussano( already proven wrong ) and then land CST without Madara being able to react. That's a blitz, and that's not happening. Even if we assume Nagato manages to pull Madara out of a lower form of Sussano, Madara just realizes this and activates PS, and shockwaves his ass whiles preoccupied with a BT pull.


Its like Madara not having access to leave his own Susanoo.
Why would he form a PS when BT is still in play does he want to leave that Susanoo next then lose more chakra to make another?


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## Veracity (Oct 17, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Its like Madara not having access to leave his own Susanoo.
> Why would he form a PS when BT is still in play does he want to leave that Susanoo next then lose more chakra to make another?



Why would he not have access to leave his Sussano when he can mentally control every aspect of it?

Madara has Bjuu level chakra. If it means not getting himself killed then why not ? Once Madara enters PS, there's nothing Nagato can do to get him out and once it comes out its Nagatos death essentially. Lower level forms of Sussano can be dealt with by Nagato.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 17, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Why would he not have access to leave his Sussano when he can mentally control every aspect of it?
> 
> Madara has Bjuu level chakra. If it means not getting himself killed then why not ? Once Madara enters PS, there's nothing Nagato can do to get him out and once it comes out its Nagatos death essentially. Lower level forms of Sussano can be dealt with by Nagato.


Exactly so why won't he be able to pull him out
But even without BT he still has Preta which will void the PS so it won't matter


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## Veracity (Oct 18, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Exactly so why won't he be able to pull him out
> But even without BT he still has Preta which will void the PS so it won't matter



Exactly what ? You have no point at all. He won't be able to pull Madara out of PS, and that's the only important aspect here.

Why would Madara be close enough for  Nagato to use preta ? And even if he was , He's going to be absorbing PS's toe nail, while the regular body can just swing a shockwave at his feet and kill pain.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Oct 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Exactly what ? You have no point at all. He won't be able to pull Madara out of PS, and that's the only important aspect here.
> 
> Why would Madara be close enough for  Nagato to use preta ? And even if he was , He's going to be absorbing PS's toe nail, *while the regular body can just swing a shockwave at his feet and kill pain*.



First of all its nagato not the six paths of pain and once again Nagato CAN FLY.

I will rant and say it as much as I have to.  NAGATO CAN FLY NAGATO CAN FLY NAGATO CAN FLY NAGATO CAN FLY NAGATO CAN FLY NAGATO CAN FLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Every single Madara supporter ignores this one factor. omfg

Nagato can just play hop skotch with PS shock waves and him flying doesn't have a 5 second time limit. Because I N THE MANGA he was floating over the hidden leaf while talking to himself for like 30 secs to a minute


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 18, 2014)

Unless you can show me panels where Nagato flies at a particularly high speed, I'll have trouble believing he can dodge attacks from a top tier jutsu launched by one of the strongest shinobi in the manga.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Oct 18, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Unless you can show me panels where Nagato flies at a particularly high speed, I'll have trouble believing he can dodge attacks from a top tier jutsu launched by one of the strongest shinobi in the manga.



Yes you speak logic. Nagato's flying ability is kind of vague. However if he has enough chakra to one shot a village and he can run at like 150+ miles an hour whats stopping him from juicing up his chakra and sore into the air extremely fast?

A person who claims to be a god and that has a bunch of abilities to back it up is not one to doubt.

Do I personally have proof of this? No. But like in so many other threads you have to think outside the box and use your imagination.

For example lets say he can levitate like lord muu but he cant go ultra fast? He could still summon his bird which would take him up to beyond madaras reach where he could just hover and snipe madara for awhile...would he get through PS? Who knows? But its a decent strategy.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 18, 2014)

If it was as simple as pumping more chakra into himself, then he would have done that to fly. The fact that Nagato never did that and, instead, relied on a bird summon for transportation suggests that he's incapable of such a feat. 

I'm also apprehensive to believe that the bird can fly high enough at a fast enough pace to avoid Madara's perfect Susanoo, which is so big that it would actually require Nagato to fly to a decent height to even get to the same level of. Compounded with this, its attack are far reaching enough to slice up mountains a good distance away and your flight strategy doesn't look very good.


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## Veracity (Oct 18, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> First of all its nagato not the six paths of pain and once again Nagato CAN FLY.
> 
> I will rant and say it as much as I have to.  NAGATO CAN FLY NAGATO CAN FLY NAGATO CAN FLY NAGATO CAN FLY NAGATO CAN FLY NAGATO CAN FLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...



I chose to call him pain . It doesnt really matter if it's pain or Nagato in that circumstance as they both get obliterated by a shockwave.

You are out of your mind if you think Nagato flying changes a single thing. Madaras PS stands taller then a freaking meteor and his shockwaves level entire mountain ranges casually. Nagato no matter how high he is , is getting obliterated by a sword swing . There is nothing he can.

Not to mention Nagato has never once even utilized flight in actual battle. You are delusional if you think he's going to fly out of Madars range before he can do anything .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 18, 2014)

ITT we're talking about Prime Nagato, not Nagato whose crippled, not Nagato who somehow is capped at Pain level power (looking at you Bkprince33). 

As a cripple he was able to get behind Bee _and_ dodge his initial attack and then get to KCM Naruto before he could react. That was as a cripple; obviously in his prime he'd be more capable. He was even able to save Konan under circumstances Hanzou believed would be impossible. That was with "don't-use-the-Rinnegan-plot-no-jutsu". 

ITT we have no plot to limit the Rinnegan's capacity. So Nagato can take this well. Why do I say this? 
The only thing people have for Madara are attributing qualities to a slash that even the users of Susanoo don't spam. In fact Hashirama, the only guy who wasn't tired (like the Gokage), managed to dodge the slashes. Hashirama didn't have super speed feats like Minato either. 
On top of that Nagato has a barrier Shinra Tensei variant that can be sustained to nullify slashes if it is needed.

Madara has no choice but to go CQC because of the Rinnegan; Madara himself recommends this strategy for fighting the Rinnegan. Now without Susanoo, Madara can't do much.

Though tbh if at this point in the manga we're going to give the Susanoo slashes qualities they don't actually have, then probably nothing will convince you at this point.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Exactly what ? You have no point at all. He won't be able to pull Madara out of PS, and that's the only important aspect here.
> 
> Why would Madara be close enough for  Nagato to use preta ? And even if he was , He's going to be absorbing PS's toe nail, while the regular body can just swing a shockwave at his feet and kill pain.


Exactly as in Madara has access to leave his own Susanoo its not Nagato actually going there and taking him out its BT aka gravity pulling him out.
And just as Munboy said u guys seriously gas the hell out of PS slashes. Why not he has asura jet boosters gravity levitation and ontop of that he has the ST barrier which if held up the slashes arent getting passed then from there he reaches PS and begins absorbing. 
Like i said before i never said its absorbing PS instantly i said once in contact with the Preta barrier its nullified


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## Gamaholic (Oct 18, 2014)

Look guy i really love Nagato but Madara Wins this battle if they would fight


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## Veracity (Oct 18, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Exactly as in Madara has access to leave his own Susanoo its not Nagato actually going there and taking him out its BT aka gravity pulling him out.
> And just as Munboy said u guys seriously gas the hell out of PS slashes. Why not he has asura jet boosters gravity levitation and ontop of that he has the ST barrier which if held up the slashes arent getting passed then from there he reaches PS and begins absorbing.
> Like i said before i never said its absorbing PS instantly i said once in contact with the Preta barrier its nullified



What's your point ? You still have no point at all. Nagato isn't BT'ing shit when Madara can reform PS over himself in a fraction of a second. It's a useless technique in this match and you know it. You keep on rephrasing the same shit over and over again. It doesn't matter if Madara willingly has the ability to leave his Sussano as he has the ability to not leave his Sussano also. Gaara canonically pulled Madara out of an open lower level Susanno. Nagato can do that, cool. But ps has zero holes. If PS comes out, BT is useless.

Jet boasters and gravity don't magically make Nagato fast enough to reach PS before he gets hit by a shockwave. Madara was able to form and throw more then 10 Sussano swords before the Buddah could even throw a punch. His PS formation and striking speed is tremendous. Not only is this insane but his PS formation speed is even crazier.

ST shockwaves don't have the feats to save pain from a multiple mountain destroying slash. And even if it did Nagato has an interval while PS doesn't. Madara can simply keep on slashing until he landscape is virtually non existent. Nagato gets slaughtered.

Why the hell would absorbing PS from the foot nullify the entire structure are you serious ?


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Oct 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What's your point ? You still have no point at all. Nagato isn't BT'ing shit when Madara can reform PS over himself in a fraction of a second. It's a useless technique in this match and you know it. You keep on rephrasing the same shit over and over again. It doesn't matter if Madara willingly has the ability to leave his Sussano as he has the ability to not leave his Sussano also. Gaara canonically pulled Madara out of an open lower level Susanno. Nagato can do that, cool. But ps has zero holes. If PS comes out, BT is useless.
> 
> Jet boasters and gravity don't magically make Nagato fast enough to reach PS before he gets hit by a shockwave. Madara was able to form and throw more then 10 Sussano swords before the Buddah could even throw a punch. His PS formation and striking speed is tremendous. Not only is this insane but his PS formation speed is even crazier.
> s
> ...



Well when Jiraiya fought Pain he filled an entire big room with the boiling oil and if you look closely when the second Preta path started absorbing it none of it magically washed over any of the pains. It is like preta' ability idk nullify's it so it all gets pulled into his absorbing jutsu even though there was ALOT of boiling oil and it looked like the pains should have at least got a little oil bath they didn't lol


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What's your point ? You still have no point at all. Nagato isn't BT'ing shit when Madara can reform PS over himself in a fraction of a second. It's a useless technique in this match and you know it. You keep on rephrasing the same shit over and over again. It doesn't matter if Madara willingly has the ability to leave his Sussano as he has the ability to not leave his Sussano also. Gaara canonically pulled Madara out of an open lower level Susanno. Nagato can do that, cool. But ps has zero holes. If PS comes out, BT is useless.
> 
> Jet boasters and gravity don't magically make Nagato fast enough to reach PS before he gets hit by a shockwave. Madara was able to form and throw more then 10 Sussano swords before the Buddah could even throw a punch. His PS formation and striking speed is tremendous. Not only is this insane but his PS formation speed is even crazier.
> 
> ...


So what? he can reform PS how useful would that be if BT is still being used. Yea you talking about rephrasing give me a break! if he has the ability to leave his Susanoo why can't BT take him out? Its gravity thats taking him not unless theres a magic barrier? 
Yea they don't ut with the ST arrier sustaied he will make it there                                                                                                                                            .
Im not talkig aout that ST im talkig about the st barrier and Know he can sustain it so an interval won't matter
Do you not know the power of Preta Path? You can't be serious


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## Veracity (Oct 18, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> So what? he can reform PS how useful would that be if BT is still being used. Yea you talking about rephrasing give me a break! if he has the ability to leave his Susanoo why can't BT take him out? Its gravity thats taking him not unless theres a magic barrier?
> Yea they don't ut with the ST arrier sustaied he will make it there                                                                                                                                            .
> Im not talkig aout that ST im talkig about the st barrier and Know he can sustain it so an interval won't matter
> Do you not know the power of Preta Path? You can't be serious



If Bt is still in use, forming PS will create a barrier around Madara where he can't be pulled any further. There you go.

Because when he walks out of his Sussano, he creates holes in which he steps through or is pulled through. PS creates a barrier with no holes in which nothing can pull you through. Get it ?

I have no idea what you just typed. It made no sense. Are you assuming Nagato can maintain an infinite ST barrier ? Lol at that.

I know what preta path does. But you're assuming that if Nagato absorbs the toe of PS, Madara won't be able to use the rest ? That's funny shit. Let me get a panel of anything even remotely close to this happening.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> If Bt is still in use, forming PS will create a barrier around Madara where he can't be pulled any further. There you go.
> 
> Because when he walks out of his Sussano, he creates holes in which he steps through or is pulled through. PS creates a barrier with no holes in which nothing can pull you through. Get it ?
> 
> ...


Not true. He will keep getting pulled it is said that anything coming out of Susanoo phases through it. He doesn't make holes lol. It prevents things from going inside not the other way around. So BT would surely pull him out 
Yea ignore that some of my keys were messing up.
Thats what the jutsu does. Nullifies any ninjutsu. Why are you going against what is stated to be the power of the justsu?


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 19, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> The guy was pretty quick while mobile why won't he be quicker when he's completely mobile not to mention in his prime. And why would he put up another PS after getting dragged out of one



We have no way to calculate how quicker he would be, your basically just granting him the speed he would need just to benefit your argument, as i already pointed out, madara wouldn't even have to be that close to nagato due to ps great range so his chance of crossing the distance and using pretha path becomes significantly smaller.




sanninme rikudo said:


> Well for starters the ST barrier can be held up until he reaches him and when he does it makes contact with the absorption barrier and thats it.
> And did i ever say he absorbs PS instantly. i said it voids it.




I would love to see scan's of a ST barrier defending against something on the scale of PS the floor is yours.


The absorption barrier doesn't void the entire ps only the part that it is touching, the barrier would be voided the rest would be active until nagato absorbs the entire thing.

I almost forgot to ask also if where granting madara the gunbai then nagato is never even approaching madara.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 19, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> We have no way to calculate how quicker he would be, your basically just granting him the speed he would need just to benefit your argument, as i already pointed out, madara wouldn't even have to be that close to nagato due to ps great range so his chance of crossing the distance and using pretha path becomes significantly smaller.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you see what he did as a cripple? He was able to get behind Bee basically almost outrun his ST and dodge Bee's attack. Then get too Kcm Naruto. Im not granting him any speed. If a cripple did this then imagine a prime Nagato.
You guys Gas up PS slashes too much its not getting passed the barrier.
Uhh yes it does. Its power is to start absorbing and through that barrier and the Ninjutsu is nullified not just part of it.
I almost forgot to ask as well knowing Madara he won't bring out PS anytime soon so whats stopping Nagato from beating a PS-less Madara?


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 19, 2014)

sanwasn't  rikudo said:


> Do you see what he did as a cripple? He was able to get behind Bee basically almost outrun his ST and dodge Bee's attack. Then get too Kcm Naruto. Im not granting him any speed. If a cripple did this then imagine a prime Nagato.
> You guys Gas up PS slashes too much its not getting passed the barrier.
> Uhh yes it does. Its power is to start absorbing and through that barrier and the Ninjutsu is nullified not just part of it.
> I almost forgot to ask as well knowing Madara he won't bring out PS anytime soon so whats stopping Nagato from beating a PS-less Madara?




Except he wasn't crippled tho, he was mobile the moment he absorbed bees chakra, who is to say he would be that much faster while in his prime state.

In this form he couldn't dodge totsuka yet your trying to argue prime nagato speed is so much more superior to edo nagato after absorbing bee's chakra he could cross a greater distance and absorb madara's ps all before he swongs his sword, and my question is what is this based on?? Your granting him speed based on nothing the manga didn't even hype his speed nor do we have feats. 


Im not gasing anything you have to prove a simple st barrier can stop something that can casually cut down mountains.

Madara will not take a rinnengon user lightly by any means and he has knowledge on pretha path and knows about it's weakness, the gunbai ensures nagato isn't absorbing anything as he won't get close enough


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 19, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Except he wasn't crippled tho, he was mobile the moment he absorbed bees chakra, who is to say he would be that much faster while in his prime state.
> 
> In this form he couldn't dodge totsuka yet your trying to argue prime nagato speed is so much more superior to edo nagato after absorbing bee's chakra he could cross a greater distance and absorb madara's ps all before he swongs his sword, and my question is what is this based on?? Your granting him speed based on nothing the manga didn't even hype his speed nor do we have feats.
> 
> ...


For what he did to Bee he was crippled.
He couldn't dodge Totsuka because he was being controlled by kabuto. If it was him actually controlling himself it would have been a different story
Was Hashi's speed crazily hyped? yet he didn't get blitzed by Madara
Since when do shockwaves affect gravity? wasn't the other way around
This is EMS Madara implying he doesn't know what the rinnegan is
Nagato has Asura path to give him extra arms and other mechanical things so that Gunbai shouldn't be a problem. 
He can then BT him out of PS and like i said before a PS-less Madara gets washed by Nagato


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 19, 2014)

Kyu said:


> PS swings it's sword.



^This.

Madara will probably fuck around for a little while and feel some pressure. But as soon as he activates Perfect Susano'o, Nagato gets wiped off the Earth in one shot.


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## Trojan (Oct 19, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> ^This.
> 
> Madara will probably fuck around for a little while and feel some pressure. But as soon as he activates Perfect Susano'o, Nagato gets wiped off the Earth in one shot.



What would Madara do(?), If Nagato made a clone of him, and made him fight himself though? 

PS< Preta path.


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## Hachibi (Oct 19, 2014)

Hussain said:


> What would Madara do(?), If Nagato made a clone of him, and made him fight himself though?
> 
> PS< Preta path.



No Limit Fallacy.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 19, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> No Limit Fallacy.



Well, too bad that was stated in the DB3. 
+
Why can't Nagato use BT to pull Madara out of his Susanoo?


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 19, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Well, too bad that was stated in the DB3.
> +
> Why can't Nagato use BT to pull Madara out of his Susanoo?



Amaterasu is hotter than the sun 
+
If Nagato use BT he get a Gunbai to the face.

PS: I missed you Hussain. The NBD was boring without you


----------



## Trojan (Oct 19, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Amaterasu is hotter than the sun
> +
> If Nagato use BT he get a Gunbai to the face.
> 
> PS: I missed you Hussain. The NBD was boring without you



- It is, do you not see his fans saying Amatersu GG to every goddamn character, and think itachi is superman or something that can't be defeated? 

- I don't care, my point is about the situation with the PS. 
not to mention he can use extra arms to stop that anyway. 

- eww.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 19, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - It is, do you not see his fans saying Amatersu GG to every goddamn character, and think itachi is superman or something that can't be defeated?
> 
> - I don't care, my point is about the situation with the PS.
> not to mention he can use extra arms to stop that anyway.
> ...



-That's because these character can't dodge it 

-If these arm were ripped off with ease by a Susano Arm form Edo Itachi, then Madara can more than likely do it with either his Gunbai or his Sword/Scyth.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 19, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> -That's because these character can't dodge it
> 
> -If these arm were ripped off with ease by a Susano Arm form Edo Itachi, then Madara can more than likely do it with either his Gunbai or his Sword/Scyth.


BT him out of PS then when gunbai comes out he grows arms and does what he did to Bee then asura gun to face or soul rip and his outta here!


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## Veracity (Oct 19, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Well when Jiraiya fought Pain he filled an entire big room with the boiling oil and if you look closely when the second Preta path started absorbing it none of it magically washed over any of the pains. It is like preta' ability idk nullify's it so it all gets pulled into his absorbing jutsu even though there was ALOT of boiling oil and it looked like the pains should have at least got a little oil bath they didn't lol





sanninme rikudo said:


> Not true. He will keep getting pulled it is said that anything coming out of Susanoo phases through it. He doesn't make holes lol. It prevents things from going inside not the other way around. So BT would surely pull him out
> Yea ignore that some of my keys were messing up.
> Thats what the jutsu does. Nullifies any ninjutsu. Why are you going against what is stated to be the power of the justsu?



Are you serious? That doesn't even logically make sence . That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Why the hell would Madara get pulled out of a solid barrier. Sussano is a solid barrier , that's what it is.  It blocks attacks from the inside and out. Think about what you just said and you'll know underhand how dumb it sounds.

Ittl nullify the area its absorbing as Madara won't be able to use his PS foot. But he still can use his arms and swords.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 19, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> For what he did to Bee he was crippled.
> He couldn't dodge Totsuka because he was being controlled by kabuto. If it was him actually controlling himself it would have been a different story
> Was Hashi's speed crazily hyped? yet he didn't get blitzed by Madara
> Since when do shockwaves affect gravity? wasn't the other way around
> ...



that was more attributed to him sneaking up on bee, not out speeding him.


kabuto said he wasn't mobile enough to dodge totsuka, not he couldn't dodge totsuka because i was controlling him.


who ever said anything about a speed blitz? what im saying is nagato can't get close enough to use his petha path to absorb PS no one is arguing nagato getting blitzed.


gunbai can push him out of range so he wouldn't be able to absorb ps


what if madara just grabs himself with a susano hand? how is nagato going to bt him then???


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Oct 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Are you serious? That doesn't even logically make sence . That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Why the hell would Madara get pulled out of a solid barrier. Sussano is a solid barrier , that's what it is.  It blocks attacks from the inside and out. Think about what you just said and you'll know underhand how dumb it sounds.
> 
> Ittl nullify the area its absorbing as Madara won't be able to use his PS foot. But he still can use his arms and swords.


-snip-

go read up on Susanoo some where and you'll see that it would say anything coming out of Susanoo phases through it
And no it doesn't nullify a part of a ninjutsu it nullifies all of it thats its ability.
But seriously that first sentence that was extremely ignorant go to narutopedia or something and read up on Susanoo or read something about Susanoo immediately.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 19, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> that was more attributed to him sneaking up on bee, not out speeding him.
> 
> 
> kabuto said he wasn't mobile enough to dodge totsuka, not he couldn't dodge totsuka because i was controlling him.
> ...


He basically out ran his own ST while crippled.
Kabuto uses them as pawns so i doubt he would take the blame but rather blame his pawns. If Nagato had his own mind and controlled his own body it wouldn't have went down that way as Nagato knows how to use his body best. 
With ST barrier up he sustains it until he reaches PS then begins to absorb it.
Then if thats the case its all a matter of what happens first a CST or Susanoo's hand grabbing Madara. Since its Prime Nagato his BT would be powerful and plus he can amp up the gravity force more and drag him over quicker in which he CST's him before PS hands reaches him.
And like i said Madara won't bring out PS immediately and his arrogance would end the fight even quicker


----------



## Veracity (Oct 19, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Man now i know your really dumb. go read up on Susanoo some where and you'll see that it would say anything coming out of Susanoo phases through it
> And no it doesn't nullify a part of a ninjutsu it nullifies all of it thats its ability.
> But seriously that first sentence that was extremely ignorant go to narutopedia or something and read up on Susanoo or read something about Susanoo immediately.



Lol no I'm not going to " read up " on Sussano. It's your job to prove your shit, unlike you I've actually proven how Gaara pulled Madara out of a Sussano with holes and how logically Nagato wouldn't be able to pull Madara out of a Sussano without holes. Narutopedia is shit btw.

Just because preta path has been said to nullify all Ninjustu doesn't mean it's canon. As even canonically it's been surpassed by another Ninjustu: wood dragon. I'm not saying it wouldn't nullify the part of Sussano its absorbing but it's extremely far fetched to assume it would nullify the entirety of the Sussano structure when Nagato is the size of a crumb compared to PS.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 20, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> He basically out ran his own ST while crippled.
> Kabuto uses them as pawns so i doubt he would take the blame but rather blame his pawns. If Nagato had his own mind and controlled his own body it wouldn't have went down that way as Nagato knows how to use his body best.
> With ST barrier up he sustains it until he reaches PS then begins to absorb it.
> Then if thats the case its all a matter of what happens first a CST or Susanoo's hand grabbing Madara. Since its Prime Nagato his BT would be powerful and plus he can amp up the gravity force more and drag him over quicker in which he CST's him before PS hands reaches him.
> And like i said Madara won't bring out PS immediately and his arrogance would end the fight even quicker



It's a inconsistent speed feat, because it happened off panel this is further backed up by the fact that we don't see nagato use any more speed feats while he's on panel and we even have kabuto complaining about his mobility.


How would it had wen't differently? nagato's only option at that point would of been to dodge and kabuto stated he lacked the mobility.

look at the way kabuto said it tho, he said it as if he knew nagato wasn't all that fast to begin with, he said "damn as i feared"


what??  


bro, deva path pulled kakashi with bt and kakashi reacted and stopped it by chains, even before so he formed a whole coherent though about how his powers work.

Kcm naruto reacted and stopped nagato's bt.

madara will react and stop the bt nagato isn't using 2 moves before madara can just grab himself with his susano hand.

where does it ever state that prime nagato's bt is stronger then edo nagato's bt?? i don't know where y'all get that from as this was never stated, the mobility part is the only difference between the 2.


but nagato will resort to using a cst first ???


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Oct 20, 2014)

I know this debate has been going on for a while and both parties are likely a little bit frustrated, but let's not try to degenerate this into insults and call others dumb now, eh?


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 20, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> BT him out of PS then when gunbai comes out he grows arms and does what he did to Bee then asura gun to face or soul rip and his outta here!



His arm are gonna get destroyed before he could soul rip Madara, or laser him to the face.


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## Bws5cton (Oct 20, 2014)

Therefore without PS nothing Madara throws will be effective against Nagato.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 20, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> It's a inconsistent speed feat, because it happened off panel this is further backed up by the fact that we don't see nagato use any more speed feats while he's on panel and we even have kabuto complaining about his mobility.
> 
> 
> How would it had wen't differently? nagato's only option at that point would of been to dodge and kabuto stated he lacked the mobility.
> ...


Unless you can prove otherwise that still holds
It would have went differently because he got caught basically due to the smoke screen but due to Kabuto's lack of info on Nagato sensing it cost Kabuto a pawn and what did he do he blamed it on Nagato
Shockwaves don't necessarily affect gravity
It was a path that was far away from Nagato and that got its chakra from an emanciated Nagato so of course he would have time. Plus nagato can amp up the power of the BT
Never said he was going to use 2 moves it was either.
It was said twice by Tobirama and Madara that Edo Tensei is as effective as the real body as the real body can  use its full potential.
Its not in Nagato's character to mess around so its more likely than Madara pulling out his PS immediately or as an alternative he can use the boss size ST.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Oct 20, 2014)

Im sure thats why Sasuke shot several katons out of his Susanoo and it phased right through it.

Thats the ability of Preta Path to absorb then nullify any ninjutsu unless you can prove that wrong?


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 20, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> His arm are gonna get destroyed before he could soul rip Madara, or laser him to the face.


How will his arms get destroyed before he uses the asura laser or soul rips him?


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## Phonas (Oct 20, 2014)

Nagato has no answers to the Perfect Susanoo. Preta Path can't even absorb Madara's Susanoo. Ask both Sasuke and Kaguya.


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## Hachibi (Oct 20, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> How will his arms get destroyed before he uses the asura laser or soul rips him?



Because he had problem soul ripping KCM Naruto and Asura Laser didn't instantly go off against Bee.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 20, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Because he had problem soul ripping KCM Naruto and Asura Laser didn't instantly go off against Bee.


Only because of that Naruto went through that jinchuriki training for Madara it won't be that long. He also has the choice off using his missles. Plus im sure he could have let it blast sooner just that that would mean the end of Bee's life. Through the use of the Asura Path his blast was set off sooner. Plus he can bind him like he did be with those mechanical ropes or whatever those were


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## Hachibi (Oct 20, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Only because of that Naruto went through that jinchuriki training for Madara it won't be that long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Oct 20, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> sanninme rikudo said:
> 
> 
> > Only because of that Naruto went through that jinchuriki training for Madara it won't be that long.
> ...


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 21, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Madara replicating that is unlikely. Naruto was only able to do that because he was in a similar situation Madara being able to do that is again unlikely.
> He won't be dodging it when its happening point blank.
> That im not sure about he said something about storing their souls in the King of Hell but asura path used it quicker and its said that Nagato moves are used on a higher speed than his paths.
> A gunbai or a scyth won't do him much good when he's binded



-Naruto was never treatened by Human Path before the Edo Nagato fight.
-Then Ribcage protect him.
-Asura Path never used laser form his hand.
-It will make Nagato release him.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 21, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Unless you can prove otherwise that still holds
> It would have went differently because he got caught basically due to the smoke screen but due to Kabuto's lack of info on Nagato sensing it cost Kabuto a pawn and what did he do he blamed it on Nagato
> Shockwaves don't necessarily affect gravity
> It was a path that was far away from Nagato and that got its chakra from an emanciated Nagato so of course he would have time. Plus nagato can amp up the power of the BT
> ...



Kabuto sounded like the mobility bothered him alot more then the smoke but i digress


[1]

where gonna have to disagree, as if kn6 withstood a st and reversed it, perfect susano is going to cleave right threw anything less then a CST.




Madara referred to the rinnengon not being able to summon gedo mazo.
even if nagato was not brought back at his full potential, then neither was madara shyt works both ways. 



madara would atleast bust out v3 or v4 susano, and nagato isn't killing him in that form without a ct, all he would do is push madara into ps when madara notices how powerful he is madara can switch in ps the moment he feels any kind of pressure


i already stated madara can counter bt very easily by anchoring himself down or grabbing himself with susano.


feat wise, and portrayal wise madara is alot stronger then nagato.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 21, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Kabuto sounded like the mobility bothered him alot more then the smoke but i digress
> 
> 
> [1]
> ...


I would kinda understand if he made an attempt to move but he literally stood there in the same position then Kabuto says mobility it seemed more like an anticipation problem because of the smoke.
That was a worn the heck out path recieving its chakra from a emaciated Nagato that was far away. This is a prime Nagato
He said something else regarding potential but i forgot. Tobirama also said that your potential is greater when in an alive body. And yea same can go for Madara but this is an EMS Madara and we saw how PS operated already. PS is all we need to see from him because like i said before a PS-less Madara gets cleaned by Nagato.
He would absorb both v3 and v4 and is Madara is smart he won't try doing that again since it was absorbed and he would only be feeding him more chakra by then Nagato would have already taken him out with like a boss sized ST
Can't he move Madara while BTing him?
And any Ninjutsu is nullified when in contact with Preta's barrier


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 21, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> -Naruto was never treatened by Human Path before the Edo Nagato fight.
> -Then Ribcage protect him.
> -Asura Path never used laser form his hand.
> -It will make Nagato release him.


I was referring to his training.
Ribcage gets absorbed easily and swiftly 
He used it from his head and that was a path getting chakra channeled to him by an emaciated Nagato
If anything Madara would release his weapons as that is what happen to Bee when Nagato had him in that position.


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## Veracity (Oct 21, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Im sure thats why Sasuke shot several katons out of his Susanoo and it phased right through it.
> 
> Thats the ability of Preta Path to absorb then nullify any ninjutsu unless you can prove that wrong?



Madara has too because they willingly can fire chakra out of their Sussano. They can let certain things pass through and certain things not.

Preta path negates Ninjustu yeah I know this. But it's extremely far fetched to say it's going to stop Madara from using the arms of PS when the absorption barrier is far below that. The burden of proof is actually on you to prove that absorbing the toe of PS is going to stop Madara himself from moving the Arms several hundred meters above.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 21, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Madara has too because they willingly can fire chakra out of their Sussano. They can let certain things pass through and certain things not.
> 
> Preta path negates Ninjustu yeah I know this. But it's extremely far fetched to say it's going to stop Madara from using the arms of PS when the absorption barrier is far below that. The burden of proof is actually on you to prove that absorbing the toe of PS is going to stop Madara himself from moving the Arms several hundred meters above.


When has that been stated or shown?
Any ninjutsu in contact with Preta's barrier is nullified unless u think PS isn't a ninjutsu?


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## Veracity (Oct 21, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> When has that been stated or shown?
> Any ninjutsu in contact with Preta's barrier is nullified unless u think PS isn't a ninjutsu?



I'll let you slide on this. If Madara gets pulled out of PS, then he an just manifest PS to grab him. Simple as that.

Like I've said a million times I know exactly what Preta path does. And yes, it will nullify PS's foot. The thing it's in contact with, but the rest of the structure will not be nullified. And if you think it will then the burden of proof is on you to prove why it will.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 22, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I'll let you slide on this. If Madara gets pulled out of PS, then he an just manifest PS to grab him. Simple as that.
> 
> Like I've said a million times I know exactly what Preta path does. And yes, it will nullify PS's foot. The thing it's in contact with, but the rest of the structure will not be nullified. And if you think it will then the burden of proof is on you to prove why it will.


Lmaoo wow thats a first


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## Veracity (Oct 22, 2014)

Conession accepted


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 22, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I would kinda understand if he made an attempt to move but he literally stood there in the same position then Kabuto says mobility it seemed more like an anticipation problem because of the smoke.
> That was a worn the heck out path recieving its chakra from a emaciated Nagato that was far away. This is a prime Nagato
> He said something else regarding potential but i forgot. Tobirama also said that your potential is greater when in an alive body. And yea same can go for Madara but this is an EMS Madara and we saw how PS operated already. PS is all we need to see from him because like i said before a PS-less Madara gets cleaned by Nagato.
> He would absorb both v3 and v4 and is Madara is smart he won't try doing that again since it was absorbed and he would only be feeding him more chakra by then Nagato would have already taken him out with like a boss sized ST
> ...



Totsuka is not slow by any means i don't know where people get that notion from, i have to take the manga as canon and conclude nagato was not fast enough to dodge totsuka.


this is false, as deva was the only path left and as it was already stated and shown, deva is alot more powerful when nagato focuses his all on this one path, remember to use CST he had to shut down the other paths, prime nagato maybe a bit stronger then a full focused deva, but PS is a hell of alot stronger then kn6 so the same logic should apply.

we seen a alive madara fight against hashirama, these 2 shinobi's are way ahead of nagato and i could make the same exact argument for nagato without ct or cst madara baby shakes him mid difficulty. 

you seem to think nagato is some sort of speed god, if this was the case why didn't he absorb bee's chakra and immediately take him out with a boss size st? nagato doesn't even fight that way and even so your forgetting the gunbai can push him out of absorption range, and i didn't even bring up genjutsu yet .........


what im trying to show you is if chains can stop deva from bting kakashi, even if nagato is stronger then deva, susano >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kakashi's chains, he's not pulling the man with a simple bt


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 22, 2014)

While I agree that Madara wins however I do not see no "stomp" happening. When you need your strongest power to beat your opponent that does not indicate a stomp at all lol

Hell if Nagato plays his cards right he could pull off an upset....granted the stars would need to align and etc


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 22, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Totsuka is not slow by any means i don't know where people get that notion from, i have to take the manga as canon and conclude nagato was not fast enough to dodge totsuka.
> 
> 
> this is false, as deva was the only path left and as it was already stated and shown, deva is alot more powerful when nagato focuses his all on this one path, remember to use CST he had to shut down the other paths, prime nagato maybe a bit stronger then a full focused deva, but PS is a hell of alot stronger then kn6 so the same logic should apply.
> ...


I never said Totsuka was slow all im saying is that if Nagato was in control of his own body he would have dodged it. It was mainly due to the dust cloud. He did say that he thought the eyes of the extra summonings would be enough. But Itachi stopped that. Also he didn't even know Nagato was a sensor that would of helped tons.
Yea that was a Deva path after using CST who was still far away from Nagato and still recieving chakra from an emaciated Nagato. That cannot be compared to a Prime Nagato in any way
A PS-less Madara still loses to a CST-less and CT-less Nagato theres nothing he can do against him.
Nope don't think he's a speed god just that you keep underestimating his speed. That was Kabuto controlling him not Nagato. Like i said before Nagato doesn't mess around he utilizes his arsenal well. if he tries to use the gunbai Nagato uses Asura path and does exactly what he did to Bee
Im sure nagato has info on the sharingan and its genjutsu capabilities plus he's a sensor so he should know not to look into his eyes and due to him being a sensor he can fight that way if needed
Never said PS won't stop Madara from getting BT'ed im saying that when he does BT he can move him.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Oct 22, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I never said Totsuka was slow all im saying is that if Nagato was in control of his own body he would have dodged it. It was mainly due to the dust cloud. He did say that he thought the eyes of the extra summonings would be enough. But Itachi stopped that. Also he didn't even know Nagato was a sensor that would of helped tons.
> Yea that was a Deva path after using CST who was still far away from Nagato and still recieving chakra from an emaciated Nagato. That cannot be compared to a Prime Nagato in any way
> A PS-less Madara still loses to a CST-less and CT-less Nagato theres nothing he can do against him.
> Nope don't think he's a speed god just that you keep underestimating his speed. That was Kabuto controlling him not Nagato. Like i said before Nagato doesn't mess around he utilizes his arsenal well. if he tries to use the gunbai Nagato uses Asura path and does exactly what he did to Bee
> ...



I find it hard to believe kabuto didn't have any info on nagato being a sensor, especially when nagato sensed the chakra build up of amatarasu and kabuto was paying attention.

the summons where to help him from being blind sided, totsuka happened directly infront of his face, im not seeing how the summons would of changed that.


we have to agree to disagree as your using a no limits fallacy on "prime nagato", im at the opinion nagato absorbing bee's chakra was kishi's way of showing us prime nagato, kishi normally retcons a bad performance for a character as he did with itachi vs sasuke, yet there was no mention of this.


kn6 also cannot be compared to perfect susano, the difference between a full concentrated deva and nagato should be the same difference between, kn6 and perfect susano.


im not underestimating his speed, im giving you feats and scans for my examples,  your kinda just going off your imagination of what you feel prime nagato should be like.


enlighten me on what asura path is doing to the gunbai when madara can casually deflect attacks like this with it shown 
                 shown 


nagato having info on the sharingon will not save him from genjutsu, alot of people had info on itachi and was caught numerious times in genjutsu, even take the raikage for example he had knowledge and the means to counter it yet he still fell to madara's genjutsu, we have no proof nagato can fight effectively with only sensing, if that was the case i don't see why he heavily relies on shared vision so much.

i also highly doubt he has info on the gunbai or susano, seeing as how itachi had to explain what the totsuka sword was to him.


ok he can move him? what does that accomplish?


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 24, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I find it hard to believe kabuto didn't have any info on nagato being a sensor, especially when nagato sensed the chakra build up of amatarasu and kabuto was paying attention.
> 
> the summons where to help him from being blind sided, totsuka happened directly infront of his face, im not seeing how the summons would of changed that.
> 
> ...


I guess thats why he was surprised after Itachi told him it wasn't him who sensed his location it was Nagato. Plus he said i thought shared vision would be enough but the field of vision was negated by Itachi and at this point he still didn't resort to his sensory even though it would have really came in handy. 
That already questioning Kabuto's credibility. The way i see it is that Kabuto doesn't know crap about Nagato but rather only some rinnegan techniques preferably the six path techs
Well look like we do have to disagree. It was already stated twice that an edo potential isnt comparable to an alive body's potential
How am i going off my imagination about his speed? I literally referred to his feat of out running his own ST and easily running up on Bee and even surprising him.
Im not talking firepower-wise im talking about if he utilizes it the same way he did on Bee then he doesn't need to worry about the Gunbai
That's the Raikage not Nagato. plus he has sensing so due to him knowing about the prowess of the sharingan he'd be smart to rely mainly on his sensing skills for anticipation.
what does having knowledge on the Gunbai have to do with it he gives him the Bee treatment.
Move him out of Susanoo's grasp.


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## Altair21 (Oct 24, 2014)

I'm surprised this thread is still going. One swing from PS is all it's going to take to end Nagato.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 30, 2014)

If Nagato summoned the Gedo soul dragon how could Madara defend against that?


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## Corax (Nov 30, 2014)

He cant. It absorbs biju lvl chakra on contact (Databook 4). PS  will get absorbed (as it has only a fragment of Madara s chakra,fragment that isnt even near V2 Bee) and rest 8 dragons will hunt and kill Madara. Also they are incorporeal.If necessarily Nagato can use bansho-tennin to pull Madara towards them. Gedo is just a power of another lvl (Juubi lvl if you wish). Nagato is comfortably stronger up to rinnegan Madra lvl. Juubidara is comfortably stronger than both.


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## Corax (Nov 30, 2014)

He easily can get into range. Chameleon is invisible,doujutsu users can t find it (as Itachi ate ST in their fight,and didnt even notice it). Nagato is muscle+ hax,Madara is just muscle. Hax>>>>muscle. Also IC Madara will never  use PS from the start,while for Nagato it is IC to summon first.


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## sabre320 (Nov 30, 2014)

If nagato gets on his bird and out of range how long does madara hold out ps because the moment he goes to v4 sussano nagato nukes with cst another funny argument is that ps has much more chakra then v2 bee this is just false as when the god trees branches were there bee was in canon recieving much more attention because of his chakra then madara nagato absorbed the cloak in 1 sec..


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 30, 2014)

Nagato cannot stop ps shockwaves and due to the lenght of the sword he won't even get close enough to absorb it, he loses this


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## sabre320 (Nov 30, 2014)

cant nagato dodge the shockwawes on the giant bird? by flying out of range?


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 30, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> cant nagato dodge the shockwawes on the giant bird? by flying out of range?



if he's on his giant bird during the time ps comes out sure, but then he's still open to magatama, katons, and ps slashes in general.


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## Altair21 (Nov 30, 2014)

People seem to also forget that PS is capable of flight (confirmed by the DB). And if Madara's is anywhere near as fast as Sasuke's then Nagato really isn't doing shit.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 30, 2014)

The thing I don't understand about the arguments for Madara. Is first of all character wise madara is not going to just use his best move right off the bat. Unlike Pain/Nagato Madara loves to F around with his prey/opponent. That in itself is a huge disadvantage that everyone has been ignoring.

People saying Madara swings PS right off the bat is total BS. Thats like saying Itachi goes into Susanoo right off the bat vs Kakashi in p1. Or Jiriaya going into SM for anyone.

In your defense yes Nagato has the rinnegan so he is a big threat but still old habits die hard.

Im sorry but I still see Nagato winning this with high difficulty. He has ways to dodge PS and he has moves then can one shot Madara even inside his PS.

And I don't see how Madara is going to hit Nagato if he is on his bird. Madara hasn't shown us any impressive katons. Also Madara can't fly. And just because he has PS doesn't mean he can reach accurately thousands and thousands of feet above him with his sword...

And there is also the argument that Nagato can parry the PS shockwaves with ST. The argument is still there. Nagato is manipulating gravity Madara is not. Shock waves can still be neutralized by ST and heres why.

"Shock waves are a sharp change of pressure in a narrow region traveling through a medium, especially air, caused by explosion or by a body moving faster than sound."

However. The big question. Does gravity affect sound?

It affects sound by creating the air pressure needed for transmitting sound. Further, that air pressure determines the speed of sound. (It's faster at significantly higher altitudes).

So with ST Nagato can change the air pressure thus canceling out PS shock waves. Or he could always just dodge them.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 30, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> While I agree that Madara wins however I do not see no "stomp" happening. When you need your strongest power to beat your opponent that does not indicate a stomp at all lol
> 
> Hell if Nagato plays his cards right he could pull off an upset....granted the stars would need to align and etc



If you do not see no stomp happening, does not that mean you see a stomp happening? 

or did I understand that wrong?


----------



## Altair21 (Nov 30, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> The thing I don't understand about the arguments for Madara. Is first of all character wise madara is not going to just use his best move right off the bat. Unlike Pain/Nagato Madara loves to F around with his prey/opponent. That in itself is a huge disadvantage that everyone has been ignoring.
> 
> People saying Madara swings PS right off the bat is total BS. Thats like saying Itachi goes into Susanoo right off the bat vs Kakashi in p1. Or Jiriaya going into SM for anyone.
> 
> ...



Uh PS can fly buddy so your entire point is null.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 30, 2014)

Do people not think Gedou Mazou can at least tango with PS? Granted, I'd still favor PS overcoming them, but it's hardly a "one-slash, two-slash, die" scenario.​


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## Altair21 (Nov 30, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Do people not think Gedou Mazou can tango with PS?



Without the bijuu? No it certainly can't.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 30, 2014)

Altair21 said:


> Uh PS can fly buddy so your entire point is null.



Please show me a panel of EMS Madara flying with PS.


----------



## Dominus (Nov 30, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Madara hasn't shown us any impressive katons.



If this Katon isn't impressive, which one is?

[sp][/sp]



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> If Nagato summoned the Gedo soul dragon how could Madara defend against that?



[sp][/sp]


----------



## Altair21 (Nov 30, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Please show me a panel of EMS Madara flying with PS.



It's been confirmed in the DB that it can fly. 



> Complete( literally full body)Susano'o
> 
> Ninjutsu,all ranges,kekke-genkai,offensive,defensive.
> Users: Uchiha Madara
> ...


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Nov 30, 2014)

I cant see madara in the picture is that EMS only madara or does he have rinnegan aswell?


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## Dominus (Nov 30, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I cant see madara in the picture is that EMS only madara or does he have rinnegan aswell?



What does it matter?


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## Altair21 (Nov 30, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I cant see madara in the picture is that EMS only madara or does he have rinnegan aswell?



It doesn't matter what version of Madara it is. The entry is about PS and it confirms that it can fly.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 30, 2014)

with no knowledge on ps a mobile nagato isn't going to camp on his bird and try to run anyway.


even if he did the katon, magatama, shyt regular ninja tools can snipe the bird right out of the sky, it's a big ass target.


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## TheGreen1 (Dec 1, 2014)

Well it all really depends on if Madara tries to get up close and personal with Nagato, or if he camps in PS. If Madara goes in close combat, he's a dead Uchiha, period. Nagato's going to get him close and soul rip.


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## sabre320 (Dec 1, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> with no knowledge on ps a mobile nagato isn't going to camp on his bird and try to run anyway.
> 
> 
> even if he did the katon, magatama, shyt regular ninja tools can snipe the bird right out of the sky, it's a big ass target.



And madara will use ps right off the bat knowing him the cocky bastard will go cqc with nagato to analyse whether he can dance well lol and cqc against nagato gets him killed....giant shinra tensei being just one example of why .He knows he is facing uchiha madara against killerbee and naruto he summoned the bird  and katons are absorbed magatama absorbed or deflected and ninja tools u kiddin?...once he takes off he is not  gettin sniped question is can ps swings take out the bird at very long range i dont think that accuracy has been displayed the moment ps is  down cst nukes madara...


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## Flappy (Dec 1, 2014)

Madara wins mid diff.

-PS slashes cause shockwaves that can cut mountains. CT is slashed into half by PS.
-CST is tanked by PS which tanked Biju Dama that can vaporise mountains.

All around Nagato can't do anything to the firepower of PS and neither does he have the firepower to breach it.


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## ShadowReaper (Dec 1, 2014)

Nagato gets destroyed, as soon as Madara becomes angered and counterattacks Chibaku Tensei with his Perfect Susanoo. 

With Kyuubi it will become a stomp.


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## sabre320 (Dec 1, 2014)

Flappy said:


> Madara wins mid diff.
> 
> -PS slashes cause shockwaves that can cut mountains. CT is slashed into half by PS.
> -CST is tanked by PS which tanked Biju Dama that can vaporise mountains.
> ...



Considering madaras mindstate he will not bust ps out in the beggining of the fight..knowing him the cocky bastard will go cqc with nagato to analyse whether he can dance well lol and cqc against nagato gets him killed....giant shinra tensei being just one example of why ...he dosent need to take ps head on ..once he takes off he is not gettin sniped question is can ps swings take out the bird at very long range i dont think that accuracy has been displayed the moment ps is down cst nukes madara...


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 1, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> And madara will use ps right off the bat knowing him the cocky bastard will go cqc with nagato to analyse whether he can dance well lol and cqc against nagato gets him killed....giant shinra tensei being just one example of why .He knows he is facing uchiha madara against killerbee and naruto he summoned the bird  and katons are absorbed magatama absorbed or deflected and ninja tools u kiddin?...once he takes off he is not  gettin sniped question is can ps swings take out the bird at very long range i dont think that accuracy has been displayed the moment ps is  down cst nukes madara...



i never stated such, madara has knowledge on the rinnengon, i fail to see why he would take it lightly.


nagato has never used cst from jump when not being controlled by kabuto, so i think we can rule that out.


again that bird was used when nagato was still immobile.


how is nagato absorbing these attacks when madara simply targets the bird from underneath? 



genjutsu will also pose a problem for nagato as well.



simply put nagato cannot breach PS and even s4 will give him trouble, the moment madara pulls out PS nagato is simply out classed and he can't do much at that point.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 1, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> with no knowledge on ps a mobile nagato isn't going to camp on his bird and try to run anyway.
> 
> 
> even if he did the katon, magatama, shyt regular ninja tools can snipe the bird right out of the sky, it's a big ass target.


BT Madara right out of PS Boss size ST him and thats it for him. More over Madara isn't pulling PS out right away so he will start with his useless Katons which all get absorbed and if he doesn't use PS right away Madara's chances go right out the window as a PS-less Madara stands no chance against a prime Nagato


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 1, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> BT Madara right out of PS Boss size ST him and thats it for him. More over Madara isn't pulling PS out right away so he will start with his useless Katons which all get absorbed and if he doesn't use PS right away Madara's chances go right out the window as a PS-less Madara stands no chance against a prime Nagato






if kakashi's chains withstood a BT, then madara can just grab himself with a ps hand and he isn't going anywhere.


madara doesn't start with PS as Nagato doesn't start with Boss Size ST and CT

they bring out there trumps more or less at a similar time and V4 will protect madara from anything accept CST and CT.


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## sabre320 (Dec 1, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> i never stated such, madara has knowledge on the rinnengon, i fail to see why he would take it lightly.
> 
> 
> nagato has never used cst from jump when not being controlled by kabuto, so i think we can rule that out.
> ...



nagato has never used cst from jump what kind of argument is that ....deva used cst while levitating from great height...the preta barrier has quite a bit of range look at preta vs jirayias oil lake nagato can position himself to intercept the attacks and them hitting the bird at that range is hard enough...or he can simply st or use asuras missiles and lasers....simply put once nagato gets on the bird and out of range madara cant do anything to nagato while once ps goes down as it takes massive chakra nagato can nuke him with cst... i admit that nagato cannot take ps down head to head but thats not how battles always have to go..


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 1, 2014)

I'm surprised this thread is still open. 
With or without Kyuubi, EMS Madara is so far above Nagato.

Chibaku Tensei is destroyed by Perfect Susano'o with no effort, considering it leveled a mountain range in one second. Chou Shinra Tensei is casually tanked by PS, and Madara destroys him during Tendou's interval. Gakidou is essentially useless against Madara's slashes, as the environment itself and sheer force will cause damage from below. Absorbing Madara's PS takes too long to even make the attempt worthwhile...

The difference is, Nagato's strongest moves are casual ones from Madara. The Rinnegan is only as strong as its wielder, which is more than enough reasoning to explain why beasts like Hashirama/Madara outclass him.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 1, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> nagato has never used cst from jump what kind of argument is that ....deva used cst while levitating from great height...the preta barrier has quite a bit of range look at preta vs jirayias oil lake nagato can position himself to intercept the attacks and them hitting the bird at that range is hard enough...or he can simply st or use asuras missiles and lasers....simply put once nagato gets on the bird and out of range madara cant do anything to nagato while once ps goes down as it takes massive chakra nagato can nuke him with cst... i admit that nagato cannot take ps down head to head but thats not how battles always have to go..



when i say jump i mean the start of the match.
the more the match progresses the more likely madara is to bring out PS, or V4 at the very least.


I know the range is pretty decent but nagato's bird is huge, the range isn't big enough to protect underneath the bird and i doubt nagato can position himself to guard under the bird like what can he do? 


Missiles and lasers get trolled by the gunbai.
If where talking a stamina battle no way is nagato outlasting a person who fought for a entire day, madara's chakra reserves are higher then nagato's.



imo with full knowledge and madara having little knowledge nagato has his chances at victory, but nagato isn't exactly quick to the gun himself in a neutral knowledge scenario.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 1, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> if kakashi's chains withstood a BT, then madara can just grab himself with a ps hand and he isn't going anywhere.
> 
> 
> madara doesn't start with PS as Nagato doesn't start with Boss Size ST and CT
> ...


He can move an opponent with BT
Yea except Boss sized isnt a trump card CST and CT is. Nagato isn't like Madara he won't take as long to use a boss sized ST.
Good joke but V4 gets absorbed Madara with out PS isn't taking a prime Nagato without PS Nagato literally runs through Madara's arsenal


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 1, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> He can move an opponent with BT
> Yea except Boss sized isnt a trump card CST and CT is. Nagato isn't like Madara he won't take as long to use a boss sized ST.
> Good joke but V4 gets absorbed Madara with out PS isn't taking a prime Nagato without PS Nagato literally runs through Madara's arsenal



i don't understand what's so hard to understand about this

he tried to bt kakashi and kakashi anchored himself with chains, why can't madara anchor himself with his ps hand holding his body?



he has to get close to absorb v4 first, the gunbai can create distance or madara can use genjutsu


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 1, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> i don't understand what's so hard to understand about this
> 
> he tried to bt kakashi and kakashi anchored himself with chains, why can't madara anchor himself with his ps hand holding his body?
> 
> ...


He can move an opponent with BT
Madara is going to want to come close because whats going to happen when theres a distance between them Nagato still absorbs any thing Madara throws at him


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 2, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> He can move an opponent with BT
> Madara is going to want to come close because whats going to happen when theres a distance between them Nagato still absorbs any thing Madara throws at him



Ok and that didn't stop kakashi, nor kcm naruto from intercepting it, we all know Nagato can move someone with bt, how does this counter my argument?


Madara stills has options when he's close such as genjutsu, kenjutsu, dude had the speed to blitz sm naruto, he can still pose a threath while close, and the moment Nagato uses st that will only entice madara to bring out ps.




Nagato's entire win conditions relies on the fact that he will use a amped up st at the start of the match before madara uses susano which he has never done while Ic and in control of himself.


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## Icegaze (Dec 2, 2014)

Madara mops the floor with this clown


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## phlogistinator123 (Dec 2, 2014)

If Nagato is allowed Animal Path summons (I know it's not allowed in this thread, but it's kind of ridiculous since it is his ability in the first place), then ...

Keep summoning the dog summon, have Madara go into PS and slash it 1000 times. 1000 hungry dogs to overwhelm him.

People forget, the dog summon is the ultimate counter against Madara, who has not been shown to use Amaterasu. 

Then just get Nagato to pull Madara out to kill him. 

Even better still, get Nagato's prime body to use multiple shadow clones to scatter to deceive Madara.


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## sabre320 (Dec 2, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> when i say jump i mean the start of the match.
> the more the match progresses the more likely madara is to bring out PS, or V4 at the very least.
> 
> 
> ...



In that case the more the match progresses the more nagato realizes madaras level is very dangerous and chakra being a sensor he summons the bird the bird is huge ...but it can manouver in the air its not a static target and im pretty sure he can position himself on the bird hes not a helpless baby hell he can have the bird carry him in his talons what then.....ignoring that nagato cn simply st any projectiles coming towards the bird or use asuras missiles and lasers to deflect said projectiles.....and dont underestimate nagatos reserves please especially when madara will be using a giant chakra construct continuously ...thus he will lose the chakra battle..


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 2, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Ok and that didn't stop kakashi, nor kcm naruto from intercepting it, we all know Nagato can move someone with bt, how does this counter my argument?
> 
> 
> Madara stills has options when he's close such as genjutsu, kenjutsu, dude had the speed to blitz sm naruto, he can still pose a threath while close, and the moment Nagato uses st that will only entice madara to bring out ps.
> ...


Yea because they were moved in a linear motion
Since he's been around Itachi i assume he knows not to look into his eyes and plus he's a sensor so he doesn't need to look directly into his eyes to fight
If Madara is close enough to use kenjutsu then there wont be time to use PS because a Boss size ST ends it 
Nagato isn't going to use CST at the beginning of the match like Madara won't use PS at the beginning but he still has different variants to use which will still end Madara. Like i said with out PS Madara doesn't get far PS is the reason this is still even being debated


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## sabre320 (Dec 2, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yea because they were moved in a linear motion
> Since he's been around Itachi i assume he knows not to look into his eyes and plus he's a sensor so he doesn't need to look directly into his eyes to fight
> If Madara is close enough to use kenjutsu then there wont be time to use PS because a Boss size ST ends it
> Nagato isn't going to use CST at the beginning of the match like Madara won't use PS at the beginning but he still has different variants to use which will still end Madara. Like i said with out PS Madara doesn't get far PS is the reason this is still even being debated[/QUOTE
> ...


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 2, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sanninme rikudo said:
> 
> 
> > Yea because they were moved in a linear motion
> ...


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 3, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> sabre320 said:
> 
> 
> > That would be the case if it was Gaara's sand but its gravity so Nagato can just pull Madara right out. Anchoring itself would only hold PS not Madara. PS doesn't void gravity
> ...


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 3, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sanninme rikudo said:
> 
> 
> > sussano holds madara in his hand...same outcome
> ...


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 3, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> sabre320 said:
> 
> 
> > Like i said he can move opponents with BT so he moves it out of PS's grasp
> ...


----------



## Jagger (Dec 3, 2014)

Whoever revived this thread should be punished.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 3, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sanninme rikudo said:
> 
> 
> > how .....he cant turn either intangible so has to exert a force greater then sussanos strength through bt to pull him that hasnt been remotely displayed there are other arguments for nagato this isnt one of them..
> ...


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 3, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> sabre320 said:
> 
> 
> > I meant he uses BT to move Madara away from PS grabbing him
> ...


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 3, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sanninme rikudo said:
> 
> 
> > madara has good reactions this is very improbable..
> ...


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 3, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> sabre320 said:
> 
> 
> > While moving him away from PS's hand he can amp up the BT power and remember this isnt deva being controlled by a emaciated Nagato from a far distance and this isn't even Edo Nagato this is prime Nagato so if he amps up the BT power the distance between Nagato and PS will be cleared is theres any distance at all and that would give Nagato an oppurtunity to boss size ST him
> ...


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 3, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sanninme rikudo said:
> 
> 
> > Dont take this the wrong way but your kinda overdoing the nagato wank he has abilities that can possibly defeat madara but he isnt straight up bt him to oblivion....madara hasvery good reaction feats guy can materialise sussano almost instantly
> ...


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 3, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> sabre320 said:
> 
> 
> > How is that wank what i proposed was reasonable and logical you guys gas up Madara in a way that debating seems pointless if he's continuously moving Madara out of PS away from PS how will PS grab Madara before the distance (if any) between Nagato and Madara is cleared?
> ...


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 3, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sanninme rikudo said:
> 
> 
> > Me gas up madara...if u saw above i debated on nagatos side that he could win...but ok lets agree to disagree
> ...


----------



## Thunder (Dec 3, 2014)

The only problem here is this thread is still going on. 

I don't see how claiming Madara slashes Nagato to death with Perfect Susano is any different than claiming Nagato completes a 26 hit combo while Madara stands around.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 3, 2014)

Thunder said:


> The only problem here is this thread is still going on.
> 
> I don't see how claiming Madara slashes Nagato to death with Perfect Susano is any different than claiming Nagato completes a 26 hit combo while Madara stands around.


Only if you believe it takes 26 hits rather than a 1 boss sized ST when he's out of PS


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## Thunder (Dec 3, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Only if you believe it takes 26 hits rather than a 1 boss sized ST when he's out of PS



You missed the point bro. I'm saying your side is being unreasonable too. I mean, do you really believe Nagato hard counters _everything_ Madara dishes out? What does Madara have over Nagato in your opinion?


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 3, 2014)

As always, one stroke of PS is all it would take for Madara to win this.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> As always, one stroke of PS is all it would take for Madara to win this.



Your argument is invalid. I could easily counter it with as always one soul rip from Nagato is all it would take for Nagato to win this....

The PS swings one liners are getting really old. Madara isn't going to instantly use his ultimate move right off the bat because kishi made his character to be a *over confident douche* who likes to toy with his opponents.

Being a over confident douche will be Madara's undoing. Nagato's calculating fighting prowess will end Madara.

Just because you have more raw power doesn't give you a auto win. The big guys fall hard.

Nagato is no fool. He will use extreme caution when fighting Madara. There are ways around PS but as always the sharingan loving fan boys of naruto forums don't see reason only what they want to see.


----------



## TheGreen1 (Dec 3, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Your argument is invalid. I could easily counter it with as always one soul rip from Nagato is all it would take for Nagato to win this....
> 
> The PS swings one liners are getting really old. Madara isn't going to instantly use his ultimate move right off the bat because kishi made his character to be a *over confident douche* who likes to toy with his opponents.
> 
> ...



I'm with this. I don't see Madara whipping out Susano'o right off the bat. And since he won't, I don't see him getting out of a Basho T'ienen and Soul Rip.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 3, 2014)

Thunder said:


> You missed the point bro. I'm saying your side is being unreasonable too. I mean, do you really believe Nagato hard counters _everything_ Madara dishes out? What does Madara have over Nagato in your opinion?


Well you just saw what Niku said one of the most common and unreasonable claims in this thread 
and to be honest the only thing Madara has over Nagato is PS but there are several counters for that and like i said the only reason this is being debatable because all other moves get absorbed quickly. I believe PS takes the most effort to counter.
And yea the Nagato side is unreasonable too but c'mon the Madara side is just ridiculous 1 swing and GG the fuck is that? thats why i stopped replying to that BS


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## sabre320 (Dec 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> As always, one stroke of PS is all it would take for Madara to win this.



sigh,,,,,,,See both sides take it to the extreme....yup madara charges up ps at the start of the match ...stabilizes it...it unsheathes it sword and strikes a nagato that will stand right there and not utilise preta or try to get out of range.....


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 4, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sigh,,,,,,,See both sides take it to the extreme....yup madara charges up ps at the start of the match ...stabilizes it...it unsheathes it sword and strikes a nagato that will stand right there and not utilise preta or try to get out of range.....


Thats what im saying they gas up PS's shockwaves as nearly undodgeable meanwhile Hashirama has never shown difficulty in taking on these slashes  because when Madara did make shockwaves he wasn't harmed by them. Plus they act as if Madara or any PS user spams the slashes at all


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## Thunder (Dec 4, 2014)

Madara instantly cut apart three mountains with a casual swing. A serious Madara wouldn't _need_ to spam those slashes if he's capable of that much destruction while not even trying. Nagato becomes a smear on the landscape if those slashes connect. That's the reality of the situation. 

Also, I'm not seeing how _Hashirama's_ feats versus Perfect Susano is relevant here. His fight with Madara was noted to be on a completely different level than anything Kishimoto showed us up to that point in story. When Nagato clashed with Naruto, Itachi, and Killer Bee the maps didn't need to be redrawn. Don't get me wrong — it was very high caliber bout for sure. Still closer in level to the other fights going on around that time period relative to Hashirama verses Madara, however.

You can say the rejuvenated Nagato we saw in canon was just a mindless zombie. Yet his power was still intact. That was made clear when Naruto observed that Nagato was even stronger than Pain. I mean, what do you think Nagato would have done differently if he were alive? Fights in the manga rarely became KC-esque anyway.

And you have to take shōnen logic into account here. The antagonists introduced later on are typically stronger than the ones introduced previously. We didn't witness the full extent of EMS Madara's abilities until _after_ Nagato was sealed away and dealt with. 

Not to say Madara just laughs at everything Nagato has. It will be a good fight until Madara gets serious.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 4, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Madara instantly cut apart three mountains with a causal swing. A serious Madara doesn't need to spam those slashes if he's capable of that much destruction while not even trying. Give me a break.
> 
> Not seeing how Hashirama is relevant, either. Their fight was on a completely different level than what we saw when Nagato clashed with Naruto, Itachi, and Bee. The maps needed to be redrawn afterwards.
> 
> Nagato ends up a smear on the landscape if those slashes connect. That's the reality of the situation.


You still don't make reference as to how Hashirama was unaffected by the slashes and dodged them from a relatively close distance it changed the landscape but did nothing to Madara.
With an argument like that your are right you do need a break


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## Thunder (Dec 4, 2014)

Hashirama is Nagato? They have the same reactions, speed feats, etc.?

What kind of argument is that?


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## JuicyG (Dec 4, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Eh, Prime Nagato should be able to pull him out of PS before it's even animated with BT, the same way he pulled KCM Naruto and a fucking meteor from space.
> 
> Madara cannot perceive the Chameleon or destroy the Cerberus.
> 
> ...




I agree with this right here

On normal conditions with full knowledge for both sides, I see Madara pulling out his PS slash from the get go which would grant him the win eventually. Seeing has how Madara thinks everyone besides Hashirama even deserves his time of day gets him killed by a very powerful and severally underestimated Prime Nagato.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 4, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Hashirama is Nagato? They have the same reactions, speed feats, etc.?
> 
> What kind of argument is that?


If hashi is dodging from that close of range Nagato should be able to dodge from a far distance and i say a far distance because saying that he is close when PS has formed implies that Nagato could have already boss sized ST him. And you are arguing this as if Madara is actually going to pull out PS in time as it's usually his last resort
Also at times Madara would slash with PS and it would only change the landscape and won't do harm to the actual person. In fact i don't recall a slash from PS actually harming some one


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## Thunder (Dec 4, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> If hashi is dodging from that close of range Nagato should be able to dodge from a far distance and i say a far distance because saying that he is close when PS has formed implies that Nagato could have already boss sized ST him.



So, Madara can't ever hit Nagato with his best attack, but Nagato can hit Madara with everything. Oh, and Madara can't counter anything.

What a dishonest way of debating.



> *And you are arguing this as if Madara is actually going to pull out PS in time as it's usually his last resort*
> Also at times Madara would slash with PS and it would only change the landscape and won't do harm to the actual person. In fact i don't recall a slash from PS actually harming some one


No, I'm not. Read my post again. You quoted it while I was still editing.


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2014)

you know there's a clear winner when one shinobi has to be heavily restricted by attempts at "IC" arguments while the other gets to go all out guns-ablazing from the getgo.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 5, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> you know there's a clear winner when one shinobi has to be heavily restricted by attempts at "IC" arguments while the other gets to go all out guns-ablazing from the getgo.





What this guy said


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> you know there's a clear winner when one shinobi has to be heavily restricted by attempts at "IC" arguments while the other gets to go all out guns-ablazing from the getgo.



Less so when it seems the overwhelming majority have a very poor understanding of IC and "guns-ablazing".

Though the unique thing with Madara threads is that people give the PS slashes more weight than the actual PS users did. An example of how this is most "reaching" argument: Madara didn't use it on Hashirama, nor did Sasuke use it to destroy every CT core.


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

people arguing for nagato you do realize he is using madara eyes right 

this is like debating who wins between Ms itachi and hebi sasuke when itachi intends to kill him 

madara can dish out things nagato has no defense for. what is boss sized ST?? seriously it isnt a real thing at all

if KN6 naruto can hold on and reflect ST on deva path why cant PS susanoo do the same to nagato???

ST repulsive force, using chakra if the force isnt enough to move the object nothing happens to said object. 

PS swings nagato dies, he cannot ST it. 

as for bansho tenin, madara uses his susanoo to grab on to himself, he wont be moved at all 

gumbai trolls all nagato attacks anywayz. same way preta path would give madara issues. they cancel each other but madara is just the higher level fighter


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## Jυstin (Dec 5, 2014)

The fight goes decently in Nagato's favor.

Until Madara decides to stop fucking around and summons his Tengu Megazord which squats down and takes a massive shit on Nagato, smothering him.

Its sword is just a formality. It won't be needed.


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

seriously i agree for the most part. ST cannot push that thing away and preta path can get overwhelmed the no limit fallacy on it should stop 

madara said FRS was alot to absorb FRS you know 

PS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FRS in everyway shape and form, most certainly preta cant absorb it. so i recant my last post


madara shits on nagato. this is like minato vs konohamaru fighting


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 5, 2014)

Preta can't abosrb shockwaves either nobody provided a legit reason on how nagato deals with the shockwaves


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2014)

I don't get this new "NLF" trend people have with Preta Path these days. That jutsu is literally that broken, in that it gives the user immunity to Ninjutsu. That's how it was designed, "NLF" in this case is just some of you expressing disinterest that your stance (or a decent chunk of it) falls apart because of that one jutsu.

Shinra Tensei's power has been reinforced several times, several ways. There's no reason to believe it won't overpower all the slashes _and_ knock over Perfect Susanoo right away.
The peculiar thing with those arguing against Shinra Tensei is that no pseudo-logic (let alone real logic) behind the stance like there is with Preta Path.

Face it, in a few aspects:
- Those of you who thought the EMS would be able to challenge the Rinnegan were wrong.
- The Rinnegan's powers were literally too much for most things in the manga.

Seriously a lot of you need to re-evaulate your stance when you claim:
- Some chakra attacks have a chance against a jutsu which absorbs chakra by nullifying Ninjutsu.
- Susanoo can resist an _actual_, not a chakra generated, force.

I mean seriously when saying "slashes" is your only defence for Madara, while forgetting stationary barrier ST variants. It does suggest the EMS Madara side as nothing to stand on.

The arguments against ST had a small amount of weight when there was the idea that it was a chakra generated force... Now we know it controls a very natural force which makes the stance silly now.

Madara's power grew upon gaining the Rinnegan for a reason.

A power to become immune to Ninjutsu (Preta Path), the power to catch foes off-guard (Shinra Tensei)... among others. And the BS says sword slashes and a giant mass of chakra can take that.


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Less so when it seems the overwhelming majority have a very poor understanding of IC and "guns-ablazing".


Good thing that's not the case, what seems to be the case is that people will take situations in the manga which have nothing to do with what the character is facing in this thread and say "it's IC for madara to do that" while ignoring any and all factors that say otherwise.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Though the unique thing with Madara threads is that people give the PS slashes more weight than the actual PS users did. An example of how this is most "reaching" argument: Madara didn't use it on Hashirama, nor did Sasuke use it to destroy every CT core.


This is a perfect example of the sad attempts at restricting a character by claiming "IC" while allowing the other to use their full arsenal, unrestricted. 

 Madara DID use PS slashes against hashirama both while hashi was alive and the page after we saw them begin to fight as edos.  If you want to claim madara didn't use PS slashes against base hashi while he was running away, then I'll ask you why madara didn't fire a barrage of 11+ bijuudamas and wipe base hashi off the map before the later could create the buddah.

Sasuke didn't destroy ever CT with his slashes because his goal was to get to madara, he didn't care about anyone other than the people he thought were essential for victory (Naruto), therefore he only targeted the CTs in front of him.

We've seen the power of the EMS slashes in the manga, we've seen how EMS Sasuke is able to tag people as fast as juubito with direct sword hits, and we've seen the gokage about to get obliterated by madara's second PS slash.  Nagato does not have an answer for them, he's not faster than people that EMS Sasuke has tagged, he's not faster than the gokage members, he doesn't have the defenses to combat more than one of them.  Nagato loses, as both feats and portrayal say he should.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Good thing that's not the case, what seems to be the case is that people will take situations in the manga which have nothing to do with what the character is facing in this thread and say "it's IC for madara to do that" while ignoring any and all factors that say otherwise.



How is it sensible to say Madara IC would spam slashes, a long range strategy, when he went closer to Hashirama (both times with PS) to fight, despite this winning strategy?




> Madara DID use PS slashes against hashirama both while hashi was alive and the page after we saw them begin to fight as edos.  If you want to claim madara didn't use PS slashes against base hashi while he was running away, then I'll ask you why madara didn't fire a barrage of 11+ bijuudamas and wipe base hashi off the map before the later could create the buddah.



I want to know why he didn't *spam *slashes like you claim the logical arguments here do? He used it once, but he didn't use any of those "shockwave slashes" in a spamming manner. 
I'd like to know why he wouldn't do so against the foe he takes the most serious.

We saw Hashirama has jutsu which can tank jutsu like BD, the databook reinfoces this.



> Sasuke didn't destroy ever CT with his slashes because his goal was to get to madara, he didn't care about anyone other than the people he thought were essential for victory (Naruto), therefore he only targeted the CTs in front of him.



But if PS slash spam was actually a think, he could've spammed the slashes anyway. That would've gotten rid of all the meteors (as the Susanoo Slash Spam argument postulates) while giving him a clear path to get to Madara.
For shits and giggles, those slashes should've also been able to get to Madara.

Targeting the CTs in front of him, despite the dire circumstances implies that a lot of you are *wrong* about the SSS strategy. In fact where was it against the strongest villain in the Naruto verse? The fight Sasuke's PS got trolled numerous times... that strategy was no-where in sight.



> We've seen the power of the EMS slashes in the manga, we've seen how EMS Sasuke is able to tag people as fast as juubito with direct sword hits, and we've seen the gokage about to get obliterated by madara's second PS slash.  Nagato does not have an answer for them, he's not faster than people that EMS Sasuke has tagged, he's not faster than the gokage members, he doesn't have the defenses to combat more than one of them.  Nagato loses, as both feats and portrayal say he should.



We've seen the power of the slashes, we've not seen anything that indicates this spam strategy like you all advocate. 

You say Nagato has no answer, yet like I outlined you're among those who ignore the convenient Shinra Tensei variants which can be maintained while Madara chooses to slash forever. 

Portrayal would suggest Nagato's Rinnegan powers do well. In fact who did EMS Sasuke tag; what the hell do you mean by "tag"? I'd like to see where Sasuke managed to hit a Juubito without help.

Apart from A, why shouldn't Nagato be fast enough to take the Gokage? We've seen his cripple speed, we've seen his reflexes via Pain. All of which make a good case.

Well your speed argument is very nonsensical as, unless it is a very low tier vs a very top tier. We have seen time and time again that at a certain tier, character speeds don't matter. A Juubijin going all out is obviously going to require someone with Six Paths power. 

Unlike the other Rinnegan users he's the only one to logically use Rinnegan powers as and when needed. Perhaps second to Rinnegan Madara... *Rinnegan* Madara.

Here's the reality: none of you arguing for the SSS consider in manga events or the logic behind it at all. You're just looking for cop outs to use the faulty argument which is the SSS is. 
You say "but we consider the manga", no you don't. If it was a legit thing, then Madara would've kept his distance and spammed. 

If it was a thing, then Sasuke would've been trolled over and over again by Kayuga. In fact he wouldn't have *closed the distance* between himself and Naruto if he wanted to do it. And Sasuke was going for the kill.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't get this new "NLF" trend people have with Preta Path these days. That jutsu is literally that broken, in that it gives the user immunity to Ninjutsu. That's how it was designed, "NLF" in this case is just some of you expressing disinterest that your stance (or a decent chunk of it) falls apart because of that one jutsu.
> 
> Shinra Tensei's power has been reinforced several times, several ways. There's no reason to believe it won't overpower all the slashes _and_ knock over Perfect Susanoo right away.
> The peculiar thing with those arguing against Shinra Tensei is that no pseudo-logic (let alone real logic) behind the stance like there is with Preta Path.
> ...




because feats show kn6 repelling and overpowering st


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> because feats show kn6 repelling and overpowering st



Once again you ignored that was referencing one of the *weakest* Shinra Tensei in the manga.

You realise you're saying KN6>*KN9*, right? 'Cause Naruto with Kurama's chakra, more than KN6, got blown away by a Shinra Tensei. 
Now admitting that would have to mean admitting you ignored the fact you're citing a showing with one of the weaker ST in the manga.


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't get this new "NLF" trend people have with Preta Path these days. That jutsu is literally that broken, in that it gives the user immunity to Ninjutsu. That's how it was designed, "NLF" in this case is just some of you expressing disinterest that your stance (or a decent chunk of it) falls apart because of that one jutsu.
> 
> Shinra Tensei's power has been reinforced several times, several ways. There's no reason to believe it won't overpower all the slashes _and_ knock over Perfect Susanoo right away.
> The peculiar thing with those arguing against Shinra Tensei is that no pseudo-logic (let alone real logic) behind the stance like there is with Preta Path.
> ...



nice post 
preta failed to absorb wood dragon. so right there it cant absorb or troll all ninjutsu 

madara used preta path and said FRS was alot to absorb

 please try act like those 2 things didnt happen


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> nice post
> preta failed to absorb wood dragon. so right there it cant absorb or troll all ninjutsu
> 
> madara used preta path and said FRS was alot to absorb
> ...



Preta failed to absorb the dragon because it was a jutsu Hashirama made to nullify it. Even then from the looks of it it nullified Preta because it looked like it touched Madara before he could absorb.
Evidence: databook entries for these shaped Mokuton suggest the construct would fall apart after having the chakra taken away. Logical inference being absorb Madara's chakra first. 

So you're just telling me you need to get the user *before* Preta Path can be used. Now what chakra absorbing jutsu can Madara use on Nagato before Nagato uses Preta? 

You should honestly think how your points *actually* link before you make them.

Madara *never* said it was a lot to absorb. He just said it is a lot... yes FRS has a lot of chakra, who knew. 


Your stance doesn't look strong when the points you cited don't actually suggest what you say they suggest.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Once again you ignored that was referencing one of the *weakest* Shinra Tensei in the manga.
> 
> You realise you're saying KN6>*KN9*, right? 'Cause Naruto with Kurama's chakra, more than KN6, got blown away by a Shinra Tensei.
> Now admitting that would have to mean admitting you ignored the fact you're citing a showing with one of the weaker ST in the manga.




Scans please

and you realize PS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kcm naruto in terms of weight raw  and raw power


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## sabre320 (Dec 5, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> The fight goes decently in Nagato's favor.
> 
> Until Madara decides to stop fucking around and summons his Tengu Megazord which squats down and takes a massive shit on Nagato, smothering him.
> 
> Its sword is just a formality. It won't be needed.



If madara decides to dick around he is dying plain and simple...when madara decides to summon his giant tengu nagato notices the huge chakra buildup being a sensor summons the bird and gets his ass out of there from there he rests in its talons deflects or absorbs any projectiles and jutsu with st,preta and asura lasers missiles ect..Madara is using a giant chakra construct which is very chakra consuming he will lose the chakra battle here the moment ps goes down cst nukes him..


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Preta failed to absorb the dragon because it was a jutsu Hashirama made to nullify it. Even then from the looks of it it nullified Preta because it looked like it touched Madara before he could absorb.
> Evidence: databook entries for these shaped Mokuton suggest the construct would fall apart after having the chakra taken away. Logical inference being absorb Madara's chakra first.
> 
> So you're just telling me you need to get the user *before* Preta Path can be used. Now what chakra absorbing jutsu can Madara use on Nagato before Nagato uses Preta?
> ...



sorry when he said it what was he referring to then????? 

clearly if he said it is alot. he referred to FRS i.e it was alot to absorb 

looool wow!!! really your excuse is wood dragon absorbed madara chakra first before he could use preta??

you mean to tell me wood dragon with barely any speed feats got to madara before he could use preta which is a sealess jutus that activates just as quick as ST



preta simply flat out failed to absorb wood dragon


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## sabre320 (Dec 5, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> seriously i agree for the most part. ST cannot push that thing away and preta path can get overwhelmed the no limit fallacy on it should stop
> 
> madara said FRS was alot to absorb FRS you know
> 
> ...



Heres the funny thing nagato in a fraction of a second absorbed all of bees v2 cloak this is all of a bijuus chakra condensed in human form this is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>frs and is comparable to ps madara does not have more chakra then bee he has the gyuuki inside him  ps is bigger yes but in v2 the chakra is condensed into human form// even if we assume ps has much more chakra then v2 bee.....nagato managed to aborb it so fast bee couldnt even land the impact of his v2 lariat...dude has awesome shunshin....he would atleast absorb alot of the ps not take 2min absorbing the ps foot like some of u think..not to mention preta works on the whole jutsu destabilizing its entirity look at jirayias oil lake so the argument that nagato will be absorbing ps pinky while ps will just look down and swing his sword on him isnt valid it would be more like this..ST perhaps not as fast


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

it isnt remotely comparable to madara PS please slap yourself. V2 killer bee isnt comparable to hachibi who will get casually slaughtered by PS. aaagh why sabre i thought you knew your stuff. 

preta cannot absorb PS. its like saying preta absorbs hachibi entirely. if so seriously nagato by himself will troll the 9 bijuu. with just preta path. which we can all agree he certainly cant do 

i mean preta failed to absorb wood dragon. not even sure it will absorb daikodan at this point


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How is it sensible to say Madara IC would spam slashes, a long range strategy, when he went closer to Hashirama (both times with PS) to fight, despite this winning strategy?


....because:
1) he needed direct hits with slashes in order to destroy something as durable as senpou mokujin
2) he fought hashi with kurama



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I want to know why he didn't *spam *slashes like you claim the logical arguments here do? He used it once, but he didn't use any of those "shockwave slashes" in a spamming manner.
> I'd like to know why he wouldn't do so against the foe he takes the most serious.


He DID spam slashes against mokujin when he fought hashi as an edo.  He didn't spam slashes against base hashi at VoTe for the same reason he didn't spam bijuudamas or bijuudamas with PS swords stuck inside of them until hashi brought out something that could actually contend with kyuusanoo: either PIS, or because he wanted to fake his own death, fight hashirama all out, get hashirama's DNA.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We saw Hashirama has jutsu which can tank jutsu like BD, the databook reinfoces this.


Don't waste my time.  Show me a jutsu that you think base hashirama could have used to somehow survive Kyuusanoo firing *this at him.* 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But if PS slash spam was actually a think, he could've spammed the slashes anyway. That would've gotten rid of all the meteors (as the Susanoo Slash Spam argument postulates) while giving him a clear path to get to Madara.
> For shits and giggles, those slashes should've also been able to get to Madara.


Why in the world would the slashes have been able to do that? What suggests they would have even reached the other meteors?  What suggests they would have been powerful enough to cut the other meteors at such a distance?  And why in the world would sasuke who won't lift a finger to save anyone other than naruto waste time doing that?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Targeting the CTs in front of him, despite the dire circumstances implies that a lot of you are wrong about the SSS strategy.* In fact where was it against the strongest villain in the Naruto verse? The fight Sasuke's PS got trolled numerous times... that strategy was no-where in sight.


Why in the world is the bolded true?  What in the world does PS getting trolled by kaguya have to do with whether or not PS can spam slashes?  Go reread Naruto vs Sasuke's final fight.  *Sasuke spams  PS slashes.*  The reason they didn't work against kaguya is because she's so fast she could dodge, and so powerful that she had the offense to destroy susanoo instantly.  Is nagato a juubi jinchuriki speedster?  Does he have offense that can instantly destroy PS?   If not, then kaguya's fight doesn't mean jack when evaluating him.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We've seen the power of the slashes, we've not seen anything that indicates this spam strategy like you all advocate.


...except we kind of do, and we've been given no reason to believe that PS can't spam slashes, especially if you're talking about firing off slashes within 5 second intervals.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You say Nagato has no answer, yet like I outlined you're among those who ignore the convenient Shinra Tensei variants which can be maintained while Madara chooses to slash forever.


The weakest of shinra tenseis has a 5 second interval.  PS slashes aren't jutsu nagato can just dispel, they are actual shockwaves which means he's going to have to outright overpower it with his shinra tenseis which means he stops one with his strongest shinra tensei and gets ended by the next.  

Even if you for some inexplicable reason made it so that a PS slash was like FRS, and nagato could for some reason dispel the shockwave, madara ends him with the second slash while nagato is in his 5 second cooldown.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Portrayal would suggest Nagato's Rinnegan powers do well. In fact who did EMS Sasuke tag; what the hell do you mean by "tag"? I'd like to see where Sasuke managed to hit a Juubito without help.


portraya absolutely does not suggests nagato's rinnegan powers do well.  Madara was using the rinnegan to do even greater things than nagato did such as his meteor drop, yet PS still trumped all of that.  PS is the epitome of the EMS's power, nagato's paths are not the epitome of the rinnegan's powers, the rinnegan's true powers are only expressed when they are in the eye's of the real user.

*Juubito forced to block sasuke's attack because he's unable to dodge*



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Apart from A, why shouldn't Nagato be fast enough to take the Gokage? We've seen his cripple speed, we've seen his reflexes via Pain. All of which make a good case.


he wasn't even able to walk as a cripple, the only way he moves is via his summonings, that's the main reason he was hit by totsuka.  Plus, Ei is part of the gokage...



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Well your speed argument is very nonsensical as, unless it is a very low tier vs a very top tier. We have seen time and time again that at a certain tier, character speeds don't matter. A Juubijin going all out is obviously going to require someone with Six Paths power.


So MS Sasuke is a very low tier and Ei is a very top tier?  Why in the world does speed only apply to a very low tier vs a very top tier?  Is edo madara not a top tier?  Why then did he call Ei fast?  Why then was he unable to defend himself from backpack oonoki +ei?  Gai blitzing juubidara, Naruto blitzing kaguya, sasuke blitzing madara, and guess what?  this is all straight up blitzes, what I'm talking about is nagato's ability to DODGE an attack and that has nothing to do with whether madara can blitz nagato or not.

Since when is it a requirement to have the six paths power to go up against a juubi jin?  Sasuke and Naruto used zero of the six paths powers against the juubi jin, madara and kaguya only used the absolute strongest.  Why?  Because the six path's powers pale in comparison to what they use, they all get countered or overpowered and are just a waste of chakra.  That's why obito doesn't waste his chakra on using the pain's powers on gai and kakashi.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Unlike the other Rinnegan users he's the only one to logically use Rinnegan powers as and when needed. Perhaps second to Rinnegan Madara... *Rinnegan* Madara.


All the other rinnegan users had stuff that completely trumped the rinnegan's powers nagato used.  That's why they never use it.  Oh and by the way, this is the exact same argument you give for Madara not spamming PS slashes.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Here's the reality: none of you arguing for the SSS consider in manga events or the logic behind it at all. You're just looking for cop outs to use the faulty argument which is the SSS is.
> You say "but we consider the manga", no you don't. If it was a legit thing, then Madara would've kept his distance and spammed.
> 
> If it was a thing, then Sasuke would've been trolled over and over again by Kayuga. In fact he wouldn't have *closed the distance* between himself and Naruto if he wanted to do it. And Sasuke was going for the kill.


So basically all of those points you've brought up have been utterly dismantled.  Direct hits from the PS sword are obviously going to be much stronger than the slashes which is why they try to score direct hits on powerful people like kaguya.  Obviously the shockwaves aren't going to do anything to her if direct hits can't even cut naruto's inferior chakra tails.

Madara needed to score direct hits on senpou mokujin, and didn't spam slashes against hashirama for the same reason he didn't nuke base hashirama with the same attack he used to destroy shinsuusenjuu's backpack.

We actually do consider the manga.  The manga has edo madara being a superior version of nagato, yet his trump card is PS.  Portrayal is PS >> edo nagato.  The full power of the rinnegan is obviously > EMS, but the full power is only expressed in the eyes of the original owner, and using its most powerful jutsu like limbo or combining stuff with PS.  The six path's of pain's powers are just downgrades to what's used in the manga which is why the juubi jins only use the most powerful tech: chibaku tensei, the rest they don't even waste chakra on.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 5, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> it isnt remotely comparable to madara PS please slap yourself. V2 killer bee isnt comparable to hachibi who will get casually slaughtered by PS. aaagh why sabre i thought you knew your stuff.
> 
> preta cannot absorb PS. its like saying preta absorbs hachibi entirely. if so seriously nagato by himself will troll the 9 bijuu. with just preta path. which we can all agree he certainly cant do
> 
> i mean preta failed to absorb wood dragon. not even sure it will absorb daikodan at this point



Im talking about the amount of chakra............not talkin about matchups yes the ps slaughters hachibi......ps is a construct that is possible from the peak of the high quality powerfull chakra of the uchiha does not mean that chakra is of greater quantity then the 8tails......The tailed beasts are living things though and the eight tails far surpasses the chakra reserves of ems madara please tell me you dont argue this..im hoping not...wood dragon is a living thing it is a rare case mokuton is a very special case...funny thing about that is multiple wood dragons absorbing madars chakra while madara absorbs the dragons chakra so stalemate..there all the while hashi was in sm but still fighting the control of madaras black rods..and please dont use the feats of a fake pair of rinnegan in an edo  to real ones in an uzumakis body..dojutsu especially the rinnegan was canonically stated to be much inferior to the real thing when in the body of an edo..hell just think about this madara couldn't suck out the chakra from the wood dragons which is nothing compared to sm hashis full reserves but when madara was ressuructed he was capable of absorbing all of sm hashis chakra in a sec and stated this was nothin..while not actually possesing the eyes themselves....which weakens the abilty..


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Scans please
> 
> and you realize PS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kcm naruto in terms of weight raw  and raw power



You really need scans to believe KCM Naruto has more Kyuubi power than KN6..  I'm done with you.

You obviously don't know anything about Shinra Tensei; example you ignore all counters to your argument. A lot of which were presented pages ago; I don't plan to reiterate. 

Reason being that if upon the manga's completion you still don't fathom this, then I can't persuade you.



Icegaze said:


> sorry when he said it what was he referring to then?????
> 
> clearly if he said it is alot. he referred to FRS i.e it was alot to absorb
> 
> ...





He didn't say FRS was too much to absorb i.e. he can't absorb it. He said it is a lot i.e. FRS has a lot of chakra. 

The wood dragon "excuse" has more substance than any argument you presented which is literally just gross misinterpretations of manga facts. Again things I won't spend time clearing up for you at this point... the manga's completion.




ueharakk said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll edit this post with a reply to your points, when I have more time.

Also just to note with the portrayal, which your stance still isn't getting, Edo Madara was only a superior version of Nagato because he was just a mobile Nagato with EMS and Mokuton. 
Show me where EMS along was highlighted; the emphasis was that Madara *beyond his prime* was superior to Nagato. 

How Madara beyond his prime>Nagato means Madara in his prime = Nagato is beyond me.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'll edit this post with a reply to your points, when I have more time.
> 
> Also just to note with the portrayal, which your stance still isn't getting, Edo Madara was only a superior version of Nagato because he was just a mobile Nagato with EMS and Mokuton.
> Show me where EMS along was highlighted; the emphasis was that Madara *beyond his prime* was superior to Nagato.


er, no.  Edo madara was portrayed to be a far superior version of nagato when *he did this.*



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How Madara beyond his prime>Nagato means Madara in his prime = Nagato is beyond me.


edo madara's greatest power that completely trumps all his other stuff including nagato abilities *is still PS.*
That's also still the height of EMS MAdara's power (assuming he doesn't even have the kyuubi).

He's beyond his prime since madara having unlimited chakra, an immortal body, hashirama's techniques, the six paths techniques and PS is obviously above a living madara with just PS.

Nagato is not even on madara's level when he's not using PS.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You really need scans to believe KCM Naruto has more Kyuubi power than KN6..  I'm done with you.
> 
> You obviously don't know anything about Shinra Tensei; example you ignore all counters to your argument. A lot of which were presented pages ago; I don't plan to reiterate.
> 
> ...



you claiming you can clear things up for me yet you arent even able to read my post 
i never said he cant absorb FRS
i said he said on panel FRS was alot to absorb. since it referred to FRS. that doesnt mean he didnt and cant absorb it 

now as for wood dragon you pretty much just copped out. you got zero explanation or defense for why preta didnt absorb it. are you going to try claim madara let him?? or wood dragon is faster than preta path?


----------



## phlogistinator123 (Dec 5, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> people arguing for nagato you do realize he is using madara eyes right
> 
> this is like debating who wins between Ms itachi and hebi sasuke when itachi intends to kill him
> 
> ...


\

Izuna's eyes, actually.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Thunder said:


> So, Madara can't ever hit Nagato with his best attack, but Nagato can hit Madara with everything. Oh, and Madara can't counter anything.
> 
> What a dishonest way of debating.
> 
> No, I'm not. Read my post again. You quoted it while I was still editing.


Nagato can conter almost anything Madara has to throw at him Preta nullifies all his attempts. As For PS Madara doesn't spam his slashes so any chance he had of winning is gone and like i said even when He slashed Hashi with the "shockwaves" it did nothing to Hashi but scrapped away the landscape
Madara can counter some of Nagato's strategies but Nagato literally counters all of his stuff


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> er, no.  Edo madara was portrayed to be a far superior version of nagato when *he did this.*



Tell me you're joking... tell me you're not saying that Rinnegan Madara's capability = EMS Madara's capabilities. 



> edo madara's greatest power that completely trumps all his other stuff including nagato abilities *is still PS.*
> That's also still the height of EMS MAdara's power (assuming he doesn't even have the kyuubi).



That's fine, but it still is a jutsu which can be nullified by one of the Rinnegan's lesser powers; it can be repelled by one of the Rinnegan's more powerful abilities.

What you need to fathom is that the very reason Nagato wins is because his Doujutsu is stronger. The portrayal point you used hinged on Rinnegan Madara, not EMS.

Though initially I argued against it, but there is no denying it: EMS Madara's PS would be weaker than shown. Sasuke confirmed that the Rinnegan does in fact enhance jutsu. That's a point I was forced to see when the manga made it apparent. 



> He's beyond his prime since madara having unlimited chakra, an immortal body, hashirama's techniques, the six paths techniques and PS is obviously above a living madara with just PS.



Wrong. He's beyond his prime because he's restored to his prime state *with a superior power: the Rinnegan.* A supreme eye which enhances all Madara's powers and gives him access to out of this world jutsu.

Now Madara is fighting that eye power... with his lesser self. Madara himself admits the only way to fight the Rinnegan when it uses Preta Path is to go CQC. Your stance doesn't consider the manga when you ignore things like that as well as the other things I outlined.



> Nagato is not even on madara's level when he's not using PS.



We don't really know Nagato's level precisely. He died without ever showing his full capabilities. 
We just know he's not going to be stomping people like Hashirama levels and above.

We know though that the EMS abilities, like the previous eyes, are just things which the Rinnegan can counter. That is what allows Nagato to beat Madara ITT.


----------



## Jυstin (Dec 5, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> If madara decides to dick around he is dying plain and simple...when madara decides to summon his giant tengu nagato notices the huge chakra buildup being a sensor summons the bird and gets his ass out of there from there he rests in its talons deflects or absorbs any projectiles and jutsu with st,preta and asura lasers missiles ect..Madara is using a giant chakra construct which is very chakra consuming he will lose the chakra battle here the moment ps goes down cst nukes him..



Perfect Susano'o is _massive_ and a single swing can cut whole mountain ranges that are far away.

Nagato is fucked.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Perfect Susano'o is _massive_ and a single swing can cut whole mountain ranges that are far away.
> 
> Nagato is fucked.



Nagato is only fucked when we forget a ton of canonical facts.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> people arguing for nagato you do realize he is using madara eyes right
> 
> this is like debating who wins between Ms itachi and hebi sasuke when itachi intends to kill him
> 
> ...


What does using Madara's eyes have to do with any thing i would understand if Madara had the rinnegan in this matchup but no he has EMS so thats useless
Boss sized ST is the one he used to solo the 3 toads
Because that ST was from a worn down Deva taking chakra from an emaciated Nagato who was far away stop comparing Deva to Nagato especially when this is prime nagato
Nagato can move an opponent around with BT so he can move Madara away from PS's grasp
If he brings out the Gunbai then Nagato can utilize Asura the way he did for Bee


----------



## Jυstin (Dec 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nagato is only fucked when we forget a ton of canonical facts.



Well I did forget that Susano'o can just throw Magatama at Nagato's bird and bring him down.

My bad.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Perfect Susano'o is _massive_ and a single swing can cut whole mountain ranges that are far away.
> 
> Nagato is fucked.


Madara's swings changes landscapes but was never seen harming someone like with Hashi Madara hacked off the mountains around him but didnt necessarily harm Hashi


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Well I did forget that Susano'o can just throw Magatama at Nagato's bird and bring him down.
> 
> My bad.


Preta voids that


----------



## Jυstin (Dec 5, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Madara's swings changes landscapes but was never seen harming someone like with Hashi Madara hacked off the mountains around him but didnt necessarily harm Hashi



And your point is?



sanninme rikudo said:


> Preta voids that



Not if Madara is aiming for the bird and not Nagato. Madara can fire a constant string of them. Nagato can't cover the whole bird's body at once.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> And your point is?
> 
> 
> 
> Not if Madara is aiming for the bird and not Nagato. Madara can fire a constant string of them. Nagato can't cover the whole bird's body at once.


My point is what it implies its harmig ladscapes and not opponents
You act as if the bird can't dodge or move at a position where Nagato can absorb it


----------



## Thunder (Dec 5, 2014)

-Preta Path voids everything . . .  except for shockwaves. However, those shockwaves couldn't beat _Hashirama_. So they can't beat Nagato either. 

-Madara dicks around the whole match because he totally wouldn't realize Nagato is using _his own eyes_. The Sharingan can't see chakra or anything like that. And there are so many Rinnegan out there. 

Er.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Dec 5, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Madara's swings changes landscapes but was never seen harming someone like with Hashi Madara hacked off the mountains around him but didnt necessarily harm Hashi



When did Madara ever swing Perfect Susanoo's sword in the general direction of Hashirama when the latter wasn't protected at the same time by some Wood Release technique?

If the backlash of the shockwaves that *weren't even directed* at the Five Kage, but in an entirely different trajectory were strong enough to send the collective group flying and tear the landscape around them to pieces, there's no doubt in my mind that Nagato would be ripped apart, especially if Madara aimed the swing at him. 

It tore up mountains. Seriously, Nagato stands no chance. He could at most deflect the first swing with his strongest Almighty Push, but unlike his adversary, he can't continuously use those and would only wind up weakening himself drastically, leaving him open to being pulverized.

Let's not mention the fact that Madara has likely more stamina that he does and can't be touched by the Rinnegan user, who has to stay on his toes and pull out his big guns just to stay alive.


----------



## Jυstin (Dec 5, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> My point is what it implies its harmig ladscapes and not opponents
> You act as if the bird can't dodge or move at a position where Nagato can absorb it



How does that, in any way, shape, or form, make it incapable of harming opponents when it is clearly powerful enough to destroy entire landscapes?

You're acting as if Madara can't aim or that Nagato can.

Like I said, Madara can fire them off in strings, like a machine gun. If the bird is flying above Madara (though PS is massively tall), he can aim at its underside. Nagato cannot be everywhere at once. That bird is getting hit _somewhere_.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Dec 5, 2014)

I think it's important to note that Kabuto considered Madara far and away his true trump card before he *ever* got the chance to perceive the latter's mastery of the Wood Release.

Which means Kabuto believed Madara was his strongest weapon with just the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, ergo above Nagato.


----------



## Jυstin (Dec 5, 2014)

Yes and also, this here is very much true:



ATastyMuffin said:


> When did Madara ever swing Perfect Susanoo's sword in the general direction of Hashirama when the latter wasn't protected at the same time by some Wood Release technique?
> 
> If the backlash of the shockwaves that *weren't even directed* at the Five Kage, but in an entirely different trajectory were strong enough to send the collective group flying and tear the landscape around them to pieces, there's no doubt in my mind that Nagato would be ripped apart, especially if Madara aimed the swing at him.
> 
> ...





Madara wasn't even aiming for Hashirama with his sword. Harshirama was trying to attack with wood hands and Madara chopped them all to pieces, and the shockwave alone was powerful enough to cut the mountains up in the distance, beyond the range of the sword itself.

Nagato can't absorb shockwaves. Madara just unleashes a flurry of swings and Nagato's toast.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Dec 5, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Madara wasn't even aiming for Hashirama with his sword. Harshirama was trying to attack with wood hands and Madara chopped them all to pieces, and the shockwave alone was powerful enough to cut the mountains up in the distance, beyond the range of the sword itself.



Exactly, one would have to prove that those shockwaves actually made contact with Hashirama and his Wood Golem, and not, say, *above* them where Hashirama would remain unharmed.

You know what, I'll disprove pro-Nagato supporters right here:



If you notice, Wood Golem's hands are *noticeably* smaller than those of the incoming barrage in the top-left panel.

Now, if you observe the bottom panel, you'll see that Wood Golem's hands (the tiny ones) were sliced by Madara's sword, but at the wrist, which are seen above Hashirama's body.

Meaning he wasn't actually touched by the shockwave.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Exactly, one would have to prove that those shockwaves actually made contact with Hashirama and his Wood Golem, and not, say, *above* them where Hashirama would remain unharmed.
> 
> You know what, I'll disprove pro-Nagato supporters right here:
> 
> ...


In the above pic you posted you see the hand stopping PS's sword but the shockwave should still be able to reach Hashi and atleast affect him. You act as if Nagato can't dodge it or use Preta and render PS useless. Moreover before Madara would have brought out PS the match would have been over as his other attempts would have failed


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Yes and also, this here is very much true:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's what im talking about when does Madara ever show to release a frenzy of slashes. Fundamentally you shouldn't be arguing about PS you should be arguing a case of how Nagato doesn't clean Madara before bringing out PS


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Dec 5, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> In the above pic you posted you see the hand stopping PS's sword but the shockwave should still be able to reach Hashi and *atleast affect him*



It did. On the very next page, you see Hashirama flying in mid-air, helpless since he was just tossed by the aftermath of the shockwave.

What is wholly incorrect about your premise and conclusion is that you believe Madara's full-power swing and consequent shockwave *hit Hashirama directl*y. That is patently false, I showed you full proof that the latter was *underneath* the sword swing. There is zero evidence that Hashirama or Nagato could survive a direct-contact hit from Perfect Susanoo's shockwaves.



> You act as if Nagato can't dodge it or use Preta and render PS useless. Moreover before Madara would have brought out PS the match would have been over as his other attempts would have failed



Nagato has zero movement feats to speak of, and how would Preta Path render Perfect Susanoo useless? The absorption field can't negate pressurized air that would rip the Rinnegan user to shreds.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Thunder said:


> -Preta Path voids everything . . .  except for shockwaves. However, those shockwaves couldn't beat _Hashirama_. So they can't beat Nagato either.
> 
> -Madara dicks around the whole match because he totally wouldn't realize Nagato is using _his own eyes_. The Sharingan can't see chakra or anything like that. And there are so many Rinnegan out there.
> 
> Er.


This is EMS Madara before rinnegan so how would he know he's using his eyes?


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> How does that, in any way, shape, or form, make it incapable of harming opponents when it is clearly powerful enough to destroy entire landscapes?
> 
> You're acting as if Madara can't aim or that Nagato can.
> 
> Like I said, Madara can fire them off in strings, like a machine gun. If the bird is flying above Madara (though PS is massively tall), he can aim at its underside. Nagato cannot be everywhere at once. That bird is getting hit _somewhere_.


The bird can't dodge?
And Nagato can levitate so a bird won't be needed an he can have fun firing useless Katons at Nagato he's just going to feed him chakra. 
And since your mentioning summonings then Nagato summons Cerberus and then Madara delivers his frenzy of slashes as u suggested (which he never does btw) and whats left a frenzy of wild rinnegan having dogs Plus Nagato has Preta's absorbing/nullifying effect that he can use on PS and just nullify it


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> It did. On the very next page, you see Hashirama flying in mid-air, helpless since he was just tossed by the aftermath of the shockwave.
> 
> What is wholly incorrect about your premise and conclusion is that you believe Madara's full-power swing and consequent shockwave *hit Hashirama directl*y. That is patently false, I showed you full proof that the latter was *underneath* the sword swing. There is zero evidence that Hashirama or Nagato could survive a direct-contact hit from Perfect Susanoo's shockwaves.
> 
> ...


Nagato outpaced his own ST while crippled and even startled Bee so im sure as being in a prime state he would have better movement then what he displayed.
I said it nullifies PS didn't I? i never said anything about shockwaves when he starts absorbing PS its rendered useless. 
On the next page it would look to seem as the shockwave didn't take a toll on him and it seems as if he moved by him self rather than the shockwave affecting him


----------



## Thunder (Dec 5, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> This is EMS Madara before rinnegan so how would he know he's using his eyes?



Because this is a _restricted_ Madara. With manga knowledge.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Because this is a _restricted_ Madara. With manga knowledge.


that was never specified


----------



## Thunder (Dec 5, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> that was never specified



Manga knowledge is assumed if not specified by the OP.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Manga knowledge is assumed if not specified by the OP.


Well lucky for us the creator ofthis thread also posts in this thread so we can just find out


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Location: Valley of the end
> 
> Starting distance: 150 meters
> 
> ...


Does Madara have manga knowledge or just knowledge up to when he has EMS?


----------



## Thunder (Dec 5, 2014)

Regardless. Doesn't change the fact Madara can see chakra. 

So can we stop pretending Madara will treat someone running around with a piece of his power lightly? Not saying Madara will use Perfect Susano right off the bat. But he's not going to just stand there, either.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 5, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Does Madara have manga knowledge or just knowledge up to when he has EMS?



Madara has no knowledge but neither does nagato


----------



## Jυstin (Dec 5, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> The bird can't dodge?
> And Nagato can levitate so a bird won't be needed an he can have fun firing useless Katons at Nagato he's just going to feed him chakra.
> And since your mentioning summonings then Nagato summons Cerberus and then Madara delivers his frenzy of slashes as u suggested (which he never does btw) and whats left a frenzy of wild rinnegan having dogs Plus Nagato has Preta's absorbing/nullifying effect that he can use on PS and just nullify it



It's a pretty big fucking target, and Madara has the EMS to track with, and as if Madara even has to attack the Cerberus for it to just bounce off PS like one of Megaman's lemon blaster shots against armored enemies. But it's all moot since:



			
				OP said:
			
		

> Restrictions: *Neither Opponents can summon any beasts* and Madara doesn't have any of the powers he stole from Hashirama.




Also Nagato's not getting anywhere close to a position where he can absorb PS, if he can even absorb the whole thing. It's constantly-generated chakra, so absorbing it won't do much but put him in range to get blasted by Madara's fan.

Or chopped to bits before he can get close enough.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 5, 2014)

Location: Valley of the end

Starting distance: 150 meters

MindSet: Cool

Restrictions: Neither Opponents can summon any beasts and Madara doesn't have any of the powers he stole from Hashirama.

Clarification: Both opponents are fully rested before the fight. They are both alive.

*Edit: Neither opponents have knowledge. Since they both lived in different eras. Also I am letting Nagato be able to summon beasts. Due to the constant one liner PS swings its sword.

Madara still can't summon Kurama.*


FYI: The reason why I changed it so Nagato can summon beasts is because if you look through the thread there is like hundreds of posts which just assumed he could summon them any way. So nothing has really changed.

The Intel change isn't a big deal either because EMS Madara never had the rinnegan for most of his life any way. He only unlocked it just before his death.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Location: Valley of the end
> 
> Starting distance: 150 meters
> 
> ...


Much better!


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> It's a pretty big fucking target, and Madara has the EMS to track with, and as if Madara even has to attack the Cerberus for it to just bounce off PS like one of Megaman's lemon blaster shots against armored enemies. But it's all moot since:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol Megaman
Why won't he get close he has we saw how he moved while crippled he can also levitate and ontop of that he has the Asura boosters so one or another he's reaching PS
It was said that V@ is the bjuu but compressed into a humanoid form if nagato absorbed this almost instantly you don't think he would fare well against PS? Plus he doesn't even need to absorb all of it absorb the legs and PS falls Plus Preta nullifies all ninjutsu
Better yet before PS is brought out Nagato places his summonings on the field then hides in the chameleon by te time he gets out Cerberus would probably have multiplied greatly or he can sneak up on Madara in the chameleon then use the Boss size ST and im pretty sure Madara won't survive that


----------



## Jυstin (Dec 5, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Lol Megaman
> Why won't he get close he has we saw how he moved while crippled he can also levitate and ontop of that he has the Asura boosters so one or another he's reaching PS
> It was said that V@ is the bjuu but compressed into a humanoid form if nagato absorbed this almost instantly you don't think he would fare well against PS? Plus he doesn't even need to absorb all of it absorb the legs and PS falls Plus Preta nullifies all ninjutsu
> Better yet before PS is brought out Nagato places his summonings on the field then hides in the chameleon by te time he gets out Cerberus would probably have multiplied greatly or he can sneak up on Madara in the chameleon then use the Boss size ST and im pretty sure Madara won't survive that



Like I said, Susano'o is constantly generated. And PS is MASSIVE. It's comparable to the tailed beasts, so he's not gonna be absorbing it to the point of disappearing. Becoming invisible also doesn't help against an opponent with eyes that can see chakra.

And before you say anything, remember that Obito could see invisible ninjas with a non fully developed Sharingan, because that's what the Sharingan can do.

If normal ninja can withstand ST by concentrating chakra to their feet, no ST is going to be moving Perfect Susano'o. I doubt it could even budge something of that magnitude. Plus, we know Susano'o is capable of resisting powerful pushes/pulls from opponents. One swing of its sword can literally cause comparable destruction to CST, and it has far greater range and immeasurably greater speed and can be used in rapid succession.

All he has to do is go PS and start swinging. It's essentially like Alucard spamming Crissaegrim in SotN.

Madara starts swinging and blows Nagato away.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Dec 5, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Nagato outpaced his own ST while crippled



Maybe you should care to read up on the claims you're spewing.

Nagato didn't appear behind Bee through any *physical* means, we know this because after punching Bee away, his Chameleon materialized almost an instant after to capture Naruto mid-air.

The logical inference is, therefore, that the _Chameleon_ transported Nagato that far a distance in a short time, thus it is the *former*'s speed feat, not the latter's. This statement coincides well with Nagato being barely mobile in the first place and already standing in the Chameleon's mouth when he launched the first Almighty Push.  



> I said it nullifies PS didn't I? i never said anything about shockwaves when he starts absorbing PS its rendered useless.



? How is Nagato going to get close enough to Perfect Susanoo to do so (since Preta Path is short-range), before he gets wiped off the face of the planet?

This is like, the one question pro-Nagato supporters have failed to answer time and time again.



> On the next page it would look to seem as the shockwave didn't take a toll on him and it seems as if he moved by him self rather than the shockwave affecting him



Doesn't matter, it didn't hit him directly.

If it did, he'd end up the same way the mountains did - cleaved in half. As will Nagato.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Dec 5, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Maybe you should care to read up on the claims you're spewing.
> 
> Nagato didn't appear behind Bee through any *physical* means, we know this because after punching Bee away, his Chameleon materialized almost an instant after to capture Naruto mid-air.
> 
> ...


Im not sure of a scenario where Nagato could have appeared like that with the use of the chameleon. He has several methods levitation Asura jet booster all summonings on the field as a distraction or simply hide in the chameleon You act as if Madara spams these things meanwhile in reality he didn't even spam it on the only person he deems worthy of beating him. Plus he has the ST barrier he can keep up so don't act as if it's impossible for Nagato to reach him.
Like i said before the real thing you guys should be debating is how Nagato doesnt clean Madara before PS is brought out until you can prove that all the nonsensical bullshit about PS doing this and PS doing that is trivial
And the shock waves seemed to go out ward everywhere so direct or not direct it wouldn't mater but rather distance would be a deciding factor


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## sabre320 (Dec 6, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Perfect Susano'o is _massive_ and a single swing can cut whole mountain ranges that are far away.
> 
> Nagato is fucked.



Yay its massive but it needs time to get up and stabilizing and if nagato gets on his bird he can dodge the linear strikes miles away i the air..


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## sabre320 (Dec 6, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> And your point is?
> 
> 
> 
> Not if Madara is aiming for the bird and not Nagato. Madara can fire a constant string of them. Nagato can't cover the whole bird's body at once.



You are acting like nagato some helpless jounin magatama isnt threatening nagato dude can st them away absorb them with preta or delet them with asura missiles an lasers considering kn cloaks on the alliance were deflecting them..


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## sabre320 (Dec 6, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Maybe you should care to read up on the claims you're spewing.
> 
> Nagato didn't appear behind Bee through any *physical* means, we know this because after punching Bee away, his Chameleon materialized almost an instant after to capture Naruto mid-air.
> 
> ...



Are you really saying the chameleon has that insane speed feat the slowest animal in the world....one who dosent even move and relies on his invisibilty...


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## sabre320 (Dec 6, 2014)

Im talking about the amount of chakra............not talkin about matchups yes the ps slaughters hachibi......ps is a construct that is possible from the peak of the high quality powerfull chakra of the uchiha does not mean that chakra is of greater quantity then the 8tails......The tailed beasts are living things though and the eight tails far surpasses the chakra reserves of ems madara please tell me you dont argue this..im hoping not...wood dragon is a living thing it is a rare case mokuton is a very special case...funny thing about that is multiple wood dragons absorbing madars chakra while madara absorbs the dragons chakra so stalemate..there all the while hashi was in sm but still fighting the control of madaras black rods..and please dont use the feats of a fake pair of rinnegan in an edo to real ones in an uzumakis body..dojutsu especially the rinnegan was canonically stated to be much inferior to the real thing when in the body of an edo..hell just think about this madara couldn't suck out the chakra from the wood dragons which is nothing compared to sm hashis full reserves but when madara was ressuructed he was capable of absorbing all of sm hashis chakra in a sec and stated this was nothin..while not actually possesing the eyes themselves....which weakens the abilty.........And the argument about getting close to ps it needs to be materialized and then takes time to be stabilized by madara so plz dont act like its some instant process and prime nagato is not static he was capable of outpacing his st and getting behind bee....and if u want to argue it was his chameleon so be it not to mention asura thrusters certainly help


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 6, 2014)

Even with knowledge, you people arguing for Madara still forget a lot of manga facts. Madara with knowledge admits using Ninjutsu against the Preta Path is stupid. 

Without knowledge, he's going to not use Ninjutsu the moment he's useless. There's a reason Hashirama had the Mokuryu absorb Madara's chakra before Madara could react and begin absorbing. 



Jυstin said:


> Well I did forget that Susano'o can just throw Magatama at Nagato's bird and bring him down.
> 
> My bad.



You also forgot that those Magatama are made of pure chakra. 

Face it, Preta Path nullifies any Ninjutsu that Madara has. Madara will also never get through any Shinra Tensei, barrier variants, with his slashes.

Your bad indeed, I've not seen someone neglect so many facts to this extent ITT.


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## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tell me you're joking... tell me you're not saying that Rinnegan Madara's capability = EMS Madara's capabilities.


Obviously I'm not saying that.  Living Rinnegan Madara's capabilities are most likely far beyond his double rinnegan drop he did as an edo, however it's clear that madara w/ his rinnegan abilities he used as an edo was on another level than nagato by portrayal, yet that wasn't his full power, his full power was PS.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's fine, but it still is a jutsu which can be nullified by one of the Rinnegan's lesser powers; it can be repelled by one of the Rinnegan's more powerful abilities.


Since when did nagato have a ST that can repel something as powerful as PS?  Preta path having the ability to absorb PS if it given enough time to absorb it while PS does nothing doesn't mean anything about nagato being superior to PS or not.

Konohomaru can kill madara if he lands a kunai to the head, does that mean anything about konohomaru's level vs madara?  Bee can end hashirama's mokujin wih a single bijuudama if he hits it, does that mean bee is actually on the level of hashirama's mokujin?  Obviously not.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *
> What you need to fathom is that the very reason Nagato wins is because his Doujutsu is stronger. *The portrayal point you used hinged on Rinnegan Madara, not EMS.
> 
> Though initially I argued against it, but there is no denying it: EMS Madara's PS would be weaker than shown. Sasuke confirmed that the Rinnegan does in fact enhance jutsu. That's a point I was forced to see when the manga made it apparent.


Since when is the bolded true?  Since when was stronger doujutsu = autowin?  Naruto doesn't even have doujutsu, does that mean he loses to everyone that has a stronger doujutsu than him?  Kakashi with just the MS could fight kaguya, does that mean pain beats kakashi?  That's an elementary school level argument on your part.  All things equal, yes, stronger doujutsu wins, but nagato is not madara's equal.

EMS Madara's PS would not be any weaker than shown, he confirmed he was capable of using the exact same thing he did against oonoki while alive, and we've seen that the slash his PS generated at VoTe is just as powerful as the slash his PS generated as an edo.  Sure rinnegan makes jutsu more powerful, but at the same time edos depower ubers like madara.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Wrong. He's beyond his prime because he's restored to his prime state *with a superior power: the Rinnegan.* A supreme eye which enhances all Madara's powers and gives him access to out of this world jutsu.
> 
> Now Madara is fighting that eye power... with his lesser self. Madara himself admits the only way to fight the Rinnegan when it uses Preta Path is to go CQC. Your stance doesn't consider the manga when you ignore things like that as well as the other things I outlined.


Madara was an edo, thus his powers were limite to the point where his greatest power he could bring out was PS, the same PS that he could bring out with the EMS which is why oonoki asks why he didn't use that power against him before, which is why we see Madara use that same PS to coat the Kyuubi at VoTe, which is why we see that same PS can only stalemate Hashirama's mokujin, which is why we see the slashes of both constructs are the same power.  Then there's all the statements like his rinnegan being a fake one, his performance immediately after gaining a real body vs when he was an edo.

We've been over about the whole "greater eye = greater shinobi" argument.

Madara never said that the only way to fight preta was to go in CQC for all situations.  The context of the statement was against the shinobi alliance, none of which could fire lethal attacks that didn't consist of chakra such as PS shockwaves.  




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We don't really know Nagato's level precisely. He died without ever showing his full capabilities.
> We just know he's not going to be stomping people like Hashirama levels and above.


Well if you have an argument for nagato being on a certain level, give it.  I don't have to refute a negative, all my arguments have been based on what we've seen and what's been implied by portrayal.  If I'm missing something note it, but don't pull the ol' extrapolate X person's power however much you want just because we don't know the exact limit of his powers.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We know though that the EMS abilities, like the previous eyes, are just things which the Rinnegan can counter. That is what allows Nagato to beat Madara ITT.


Be specific.  Who's using the rinnegan?  Kaguya has the rinnegan, she can counter EMS techs.  Doesn't mean that pain > EMS users.  Kaguya also has the byakugan, does that mean hinata can counter EMS users as well?

Also, being able to counter EMS users doesn't mean anything about beating them.  If countering the other technique requires PS to just stand stil while you run up to it and absorb it, then countering it means nothing since the prerequisits for the counter have an abysmal chance of happening.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

Madara. Faster, smarter, his PS can counter anything Nagato can pull off. And his chakra levels are much higher.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara. Faster, smarter, his PS can counter anything Nagato can pull off. And his chakra levels are much higher.


PS would get nulled by Preta or he can BT madara out of it. Nagato has alot of chakra as well he plus with Madara feeding his ninjutsu then its only Madara who's losing and Nagato who's gaining.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Obviously I'm not saying that.  Living Rinnegan Madara's capabilities are most likely far beyond his double rinnegan drop he did as an edo, however it's clear that madara w/ his rinnegan abilities he used as an edo was on another level than nagato by portrayal, yet that wasn't his full power, his full power was PS.



Yes... Rinnegan Madara, not EMS. Look at Sasuke: Rinnegan improves jutsu. That means whatever PS you're talking about is a Rinnegan enhanced one. 

Of course, PS, Edo Madara's strongest Rinnegan enhanced jutsu is still capable of being nullified by a combo of Preta and Deva Paths.




> Since when did nagato have a ST that can repel something as powerful as PS?  Preta path having the ability to absorb PS if it given enough time to absorb it while PS does nothing doesn't mean anything about nagato being superior to PS or not.
> 
> Konohomaru can kill madara if he lands a kunai to the head, does that mean anything about konohomaru's level vs madara?  Bee can end hashirama's mokujin wih a single bijuudama if he hits it, does that mean bee is actually on the level of hashirama's mokujin?  Obviously not.


Since when is PS so special that it can resist a natual force? There is no time limit for absorption. That's a false rule this forum created when Preta Path was a popular counter to Ninjutsu in general.
PS _can't_ do anything when it is being absorbed: read what Preta Path actually does. 

Your false analogy is pretty silly because with the Nagato-Madara example you're evidently ignoring a shit ton of facts. Such as the jutsu mechanisms of Preta Path. All while you're adding random things that were never in the manga e.g. PS being special enough to resist a repulsion force and Preta Path having a time limit to absorb jutsu.



> Since when is the bolded true?  Since when was stronger doujutsu = autowin?  Naruto doesn't even have doujutsu, does that mean he loses to everyone that has a stronger doujutsu than him?  Kakashi with just the MS could fight kaguya, does that mean pain beats kakashi?  That's an elementary school level argument on your part.  All things equal, yes, stronger doujutsu wins, but nagato is not madara's equal.
> 
> EMS Madara's PS would not be any weaker than shown, he confirmed he was capable of using the exact same thing he did against oonoki while alive, and we've seen that the slash his PS generated at VoTe is just as powerful as the slash his PS generated as an edo.  Sure rinnegan makes jutsu more powerful, but at the same time edos depower ubers like madara.



There are times you get Doujutsu which are too powerful when the user has a certain level of skill. In Nagato's case that's true. 
Stop with your false analogies, they only tell me you don't have a decent enough grasp of the debate in hand. 

Madara's PS is chakra, nullified by a chakra nullifier that the Rinnegan has. Even Madara damn Uchiha himself said Ninjutsu is pointless against Preta. 
Shock waves can be repelled by a ST variant that can be held up.
PS slashes and PS are useless because of 2 Rinnegan abilities. Taijutsu is useless because of several more.

Madara, with a mere EMS, is just outmatched.

The portrayal you hinge on refers to Madara with a more powerful Doujutsu.



> Well if you have an argument for nagato being on a certain level, give it.  I don't have to refute a negative, all my arguments have been based on what we've seen and what's been implied by portrayal.  If I'm missing something note it, but don't pull the ol' extrapolate X person's power however much you want just because we don't know the exact limit of his powers.



You're not in a position to demand evidence when you're the guy claiming PS can resist repulsion forces and has qualities which somehow defy Preta Path's functions. In fact you can't be demanding when your idea of Preta Path's workings contradict the evidence shown.

Nagato being on the level to take EMS Madara has been reiterated in this thread a few times; Madara's proposed cards to victory are countered easily. Yet your side refuses this and uses misinterpretation of facts to keep on going. 

Your portrayal hinges on Rinnegan Madara; you have absolutely nothing for EMS Madara in this case.



> Also, being able to counter EMS users doesn't mean anything about beating them.  If countering the other technique requires PS to just stand stil while you run up to it and absorb it, then countering it means nothing since the prerequisits for the counter have an abysmal chance of happening.



Being able to counter EMS users means everything when your case hinges *entirely* on the EMS power. Not once has your side ever hinged on anything OUTSIDE the EMS powers. Thus saying Nagato can counter the EMS, thus he can beat Madara will be a sufficient stance. 

If it isn't everything just to counter the EMS, then practice what you preach and stop making your argument rely on the EMS.

What's more, going by your post you obviously don't understand how the Rinnegan's powers actually work. For instance you think PS needs to do nothing to be helpless; you don't understand how Preta Path works. 

Here's a good way to make an amazing case for EMS Madara: understand how the opposition's jutsu works. 
Understand what the portrayal you're using actually says i.e. Rinnegan Madara's portrayal =/= EMS Madara's portrayal.

Also portrayal would suggest that the Rinnegan makes jutsu like Susanoo look like nothing considering the countering factors it has. I.E. someone with Nagato's level can do it. That is why it was so fearsome when Madara had it, 'cause we knew he could do so much more.
Of course accepting the portrayal argument in its entirety means you have to admit you're wrong.


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 7, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



In before 50th page



OT: Madara can cause the type of devastation on a whim it takes Nagato to shorten his life span to replicate.
Madara not only operates on that level, but he can continue to fight at that level for a protracted amount of time, unlike Nagato who's only on that level for 2-3 techniques in exchange for being left in a worse, deteriorating physical condition.
Madara wins outside of "prime nagato" being absurdly more powerful than the Nagato were familiar with.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 7, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why would he need to replicate destruction when he can just nullify PS altogether.
And why is everyone constantly arguing about PS as if he brings it out at the beginning of the match. That alone gives Nagato the win.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> PS would get nulled by Preta or he can BT madara out of it. Nagato has alot of chakra as well he plus with Madara feeding his ninjutsu then its only Madara who's losing and Nagato who's gaining.



Nagato does not have the same amount of chakra Madara has. And i am curious if he can pull Madara out of PS. It is much different from another Susanoo. And, since Hashirama never used his Flower World technique against it, i assume Nagato will have problems of pulling him out. Also, Madara doesnt need to slash right at Nagato. Shockwaves from his slashes are immence and can be enough to beat Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 7, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's when he uses ST through God Realm. Of course, Nagato was capable of such a ST when he was chakra deprived relative to his prime state _while_ using Pain which canonically weakens his jutsu output in terms of power and speed.



StarWanderer said:


> Nagato does not have the same amount of chakra Madara has.



How do you know Nagato and Madara's chakra levels? I'm interested.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Nagato does not have the same amount of chakra Madara has. And i am curious if he can pull Madara out of PS. It is much different from another Susanoo. And, since Hashirama never used his Flower World technique against it, i assume Nagato will have problems of pulling him out. Also, Madara doesnt need to slash right at Nagato. Shockwaves from his slashes are immence and can be enough to beat Nagato.


Well i don't see how PS is immune to gravity so Madara will still come right out. Not hitting him directly won't do him any good as when he slashed at Hashirama his shockwave went all around but Hashi was unscathed. Plus he has ST and also an ST barrier that can help from the shockwaves especially there not directly aimed at him Hashi didn't even seemed to be hindered by it so i don't see why a Prime nagato with an ST barrier up would. He also has preta to not only absorb it but void it as well. 
However this argument is pointless seeing as Madara probably won't have time to bring PS out anyway since it's normally his last resort


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## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Well i don't see how PS is immune to gravity so Madara will still come right out. Not hitting him directly won't do him any good as when he slashed at Hashirama his shockwave went all around but Hashi was unscathed. Plus he has ST and also an ST barrier that can help from the shockwaves especially there not directly aimed at him Hashi didn't even seemed to be hindered by it so i don't see why a Prime nagato with an ST barrier up would. He also has preta to not only absorb it but void it as well.
> However this argument is pointless seeing as Madara probably won't have time to bring PS out anyway since it's normally his last resort



Well, inside PS, shinobi is in its forehead, were he is in the air. At least it looks like that. The same thing with imperfect Susanoo btw (look up Sasuke's fight with Danzo). And, well, thats Hashirama. Gokage was flying away from only 1 slash. Plus, he cant use ST all the time. There is a time gap of 5 second when he cant use it. And ST cant do anything to PS that can withstand TBB from Full Kurama like its nothing. 

He brought it from the start in his last fight with Hashirama.

I think Madara can outlast him, or beat him with PS blade shockwaves.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> I think Madara can outlast him



But how do you know the precise chakra levels of EMS Madara and Nagato?


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## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But how do you know the precise chakra levels of EMS Madara and Nagato?



Madara can fight for the whole day. Nagato, as it was shown, cant. He was bleeding in his fight with Naruto. And Konan worried about him. Also, Madara has Indra's chakra.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara can fight for the whole day. Nagato, as it was shown, cant. He was bleeding in his fight with Naruto. And Konan worried about him. Also, Madara has Indra's chakra.



Indra's chakra doesn't make sense in this context.

Nagato was chakra deprived, fought through Pain using Rinnegan jutsu then finally the chakra taxing Rinne Tensei. 

Madara, from what we know just used PS. Nagato used a bunch of jutsu.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara can fight for the whole day. Nagato, as it was shown, cant. He was bleeding in his fight with Naruto. And Konan worried about him. Also, Madara has Indra's chakra.


That was an emaciated Nagato who was constantly channeling power through his paths. He used CST eradicated Konoha into a crater battle SM Naruto captured him if not for Hinata plus capturing is alot harder than just plain killing. Then was battling the 6 tails then used CT and said he could have made it bigger. Then after all that to top it off revives everyone he killed all in his weakened emaciated state. So don't go gassing up Madara only when Nagato did all this in an emaciated state where as in this battle he is in his prime


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## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Indra's chakra doesn't make sense in this context.
> 
> Nagato was chakra deprived, fought through Pain using Rinnegan jutsu then finally the chakra taxing Rinne Tensei.
> 
> Madara, from what we know just used PS. Nagato used a bunch of jutsu.



Dont you think that PS needs a lot of chakra to be made?

Nagato was deprived because of city level ST. Madara could fight with hashirama using his PS that can slash mountains. And he could use it for a long time. He also could re-shape it as he wanted to (see Kurama example). he could use very powerfull chakra techniques and fight for the whole day against Hashirama Senju. Thats why his chakra levels are above those of Nagato.



> That was an emaciated Nagato who was constantly channeling power through his paths. He used CST eradicated Konoha into a crater battle SM Naruto captured him if not for Hinata plus capturing is alot harder than just plain killing. Then was battling the 6 tails then used CT and said he could have made it bigger. Then after all that to top it off revives everyone he killed all in his weakened emaciated state. So don't go gassing up Madara only when Nagato did all this in an emaciated state where as in this battle he is in his prime



Madara used city level attacks on a daily basis against Hashirama. And he fought Hashirama, the strongest shinobi except 8 Gates Might Guy, for the whole day.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Dont you think that PS needs a lot of chakra to be made?
> 
> Nagato was deprived because of city level ST. Madara could fight with hashirama using his PS that can slash mountains. And he could use it for a long time. He also could re-shape it as he wanted to (see Kurama example). he could use very powerfull chakra techniques and fight for the whole day against Hashirama Senju. Thats why his chakra levels are above those of Nagato.
> 
> ...


Your forgetting Nagato was emaciated not in his Prime or a healthy state for that matter like Madara was Plus if an emaciated nagato pulled off stuff like that that can be compared to Madara imagine a prime Nagato


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## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Your forgetting Nagato was emaciated not in his Prime or a healthy state for that matter like Madara was



He was just tired from using ST on such a scale. Thats it.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> He was just tired from using ST on such a scale. Thats it.


Thats far from it Nagato has been emaciated far before he used CST. With him being weakened and able to still constantly channel chakra to all his paths defeat SM Naruto before his tranz use CT that was that huge and stated he could have made it bigger then revive all those people he killed all while in an emaciated form speaks volumes about his reserves. 
Where as Madara just sustained PS as he fought along side Kurama its not even known if he used PS through out the whole battle so thats something to keep in mind as well


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## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Thats far from it Nagato has been emaciated far before he used CST. With him being weakened and able to still constantly channel chakra to all his paths defeat SM Naruto before his tranz use CT that was that huge and stated he could have made it bigger then revive all those people he killed all while in an emaciated form speaks volumes about his reserves.
> Where as Madara just sustained PS as he fought along side Kurama its not even known if he used PS through out the whole battle so thats something to keep in mind as well



Madara fought Hashirama twice. The first time he fought without Kurama the whole day. And i think its safe to say he used many powerfull techniques during his fight with Hashirama that lasted the whole day.

I dont remember anything that proves Nagato was weakened before his invasion of Konoha.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara fought Hashirama twice. The first time he fought without Kurama the whole day. And i think its safe to say he used many powerfull techniques during his fight with Hashirama that lasted the whole day.
> 
> I dont remember anything that proves Nagato was weakened before his invasion of Konoha.


Like i said before its not known whether or not he used PS for the whole 24 hours and only PS can rival emaciated Nagato's reserves feat
Nagato has been emaciated for a while just look at him


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## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Like i said before its not known whether or not he used PS for the whole 24 hours and only PS can rival emaciated Nagato's reserves feat
> Nagato has been emaciated for a while just look at him



I doubt he used weak techniques against such a powerfull shinobi as Hashirama. And that fight lasted longer than any fight nagato participated in all together.


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## Jυstin (Dec 7, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You also forgot that those Magatama are made of pure chakra.
> 
> Face it, Preta Path nullifies any Ninjutsu that Madara has. Madara will also never get through any Shinra Tensei, barrier variants, with his slashes.
> 
> Your bad indeed, I've not seen someone neglect so many facts to this extent ITT.



You're right. You're absolutely right.

Madara can't shoot his Magatama _anywhere_ because Nagato is all-encompassing and can absorb any attack from any position instantly. Wherever his Magatama goes, Nagato will telekinetically absorb it.

It doesn't matter if it's aimed at Nagato or not. He'll just fucking absorb it.

Why, the very chakra in the bodies of his opponents gets absorbed by merely being in his presence. Physical contact? Bitch please. Nagato doesn't have time for that restrictions shit.

And ST will repel anything and everything ever. No force can resist it, at all. Once Madara swings and Nagato repels the shockwave, Madara's fucked. We all know he can only swing once.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> I doubt he used weak techniques against such a powerfull shinobi as Hashirama. And that fight lasted longer than any fight nagato participated in all together.


What other strong tech does he have other than PS that could serve as a reserve feat would be as astonishing as emaciated Nagato's?


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## Jυstin (Dec 7, 2014)

It doesn't need to be as astonishing as CST for it to be able to kill Nagato.

Just the _shock-waves_ from PS's swings are powerful enough to be comparable to Nagato, let alone imagining how powerful that makes the sword itself.

Nagato's only defense against this is ST, but Madara can just keep swinging until Nagato fucks up or drops.

Meanwhile Madara's own offense is also his defense; Perfect Susano'o. Iirc, there were a lot of people in the epicenter of the destruction of Konoha by CST that weren't killed, so Madara inside of Susano'o shouldn't be either.

On top of that, Nagato gets diced as he's jumping up to use CST.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> What other strong tech does he have other than PS that could serve as a reserve feat would be as astonishing as emaciated Nagato's?



The biggest Katon in narutoverse, for example. Uchiha reverse. Sharingan techniques and many others.

Anyway, i'd like to see a fight where Nagato fought for the whole day against a shinobi as powerful as Hashirama.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 7, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> It doesn't need to be as astonishing as CST for it to be able to kill Nagato.
> 
> Just the _shock-waves_ from PS's swings are powerful enough to be comparable to Nagato, let alone imagining how powerful that makes the sword itself.
> 
> ...


Not what we were discussing you missed the whole point or didn't read carefully
But anyways doesn't matter Preta nullifies PS Or he can BT Madara out of the PS.
And like i've been constantly saying Madara isn't going to pull out PS at the beginning as its his last resort so that throws his chances of winning out the window because without PS Madara is done for.


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## sanninme rikudo (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> The biggest Katon in narutoverse, for example. Uchiha reverse. Sharingan techniques and many others.
> 
> Anyway, i'd like to see a fight where Nagato fought for the whole day against a shinobi as powerful as Hashirama.


Katons aren't really as impressive as what Nagato has shown although he hasn't fought for a whole day when he did all those feats he was in a weakened state not a healthy one like Madara so a prime Nagato reserves would prove to be off the charts


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## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Katons aren't really as impressive as what Nagato has shown although he hasn't fought for a whole day when he did all those feats he was in a weakened state not a healthy one like Madara so a prime Nagato reserves would prove to be off the charts



Yeah, he fought for how long? 2 hours? Not impressive.

And where is a proof Nagato was weakened before Konoha's invasion?



> Not what we were discussing you missed the whole point or didn't read carefully
> But anyways doesn't matter Preta nullifies PS Or he can BT Madara out of the PS.
> And like i've been constantly saying Madara isn't going to pull out PS at the beginning as its his last resort so that throws his chances of winning out the window because without PS Madara is done for.



Shockwaves from PS can give Nagato a lot of troubles, especially when he cant use ST all the time since there is a time gap of 5 seconds.

And how can he pull him out of Perfect Susanoo? We already discussed that point, as i remember.

He can pull his PS out in the beginning, like he did in his fight with Hashirama. He can pull it out whenever he wants. And Nagato has nothing to counter PS.


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## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes... Rinnegan Madara, not EMS. Look at Sasuke: Rinnegan improves jutsu. That means whatever PS you're talking about is a Rinnegan enhanced one.
> 
> Of course, PS, Edo Madara's strongest Rinnegan enhanced jutsu is still capable of being nullified by a combo of Preta and Deva Paths.


As explained, there's no difference between edo madara's PS and living EMS Madara's PS.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Since when is PS so special that it can resist a natual force? There is no time limit for absorption. That's a false rule this forum created when Preta Path was a popular counter to Ninjutsu in general.
> PS _can't_ do anything when it is being absorbed: read what Preta Path actually does.
> 
> Your false analogy is pretty silly because with the Nagato-Madara example you're evidently ignoring a shit ton of facts. Such as the jutsu mechanisms of Preta Path. All while you're adding random things that were never in the manga e.g. PS being special enough to resist a repulsion force and Preta Path having a time limit to absorb jutsu.


Wait a second, since when is there no time limit for absorption in that nagato absorbs any jutsu regardless of chakra quantity or size within a set amount of time?

Er, KN6 resists that natural force, base naruto resists it, so does PS something incomparably more powerful.

Tell me why PS can't do anything when it's being absorbed.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *There are times you get Doujutsu which are too powerful when the user has a certain level of skill. In Nagato's case that's true. *
> Stop with your false analogies, they only tell me you don't have a decent enough grasp of the debate in hand.


Based on what is the bolded true?  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara's PS is chakra, nullified by a chakra nullifier that the Rinnegan has. Even Madara damn Uchiha himself said Ninjutsu is pointless against Preta.
> Shock waves can be repelled by a ST variant that can be held up.
> PS slashes and PS are useless because of 2 Rinnegan abilities. Taijutsu is useless because of several more.


Yep, so a bunch of no limits fallacies where one character says something, and the reader takes them out of context and drives the statement through the roof to mean it fulfills its mechanics conditionlessly.  Can raikiri cut through anything?  Does gai's MP burn any target?  Does yaata reflect any attack?  Does onmyouton or jinton turn anything to dust in an instant?  Obviously not, preta path is no different, the strongest thing it's absorbed is a senpou FRS or jinton.  In fact, madara got part of his body erased by jinton. 

Based on what can shockwaves be repelled by a ST variat that can be held up?  THe manga explicitly stated that even the weakest of ST has a 5 second interval.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara, with a mere EMS, is just outmatched.
> 
> The portrayal you hinge on refers to Madara with a more powerful Doujutsu.


Absolutely not, as explained before, EMS MAdara's full power is on a completely different level from edo rinnegan madara's powers that completely outclassed nagato's.  The difference in feats are even crazier.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're not in a position to demand evidence when you're the guy claiming PS can resist repulsion forces and has qualities which somehow defy Preta Path's functions. In fact you can't be demanding when your idea of Preta Path's workings contradict the evidence shown.


KN6 resists the repulsion force, something incomparably greater does it as well.  STrongest thing preta path has ever absorbed is a SM FRS, and has absorbed some attacks quicker than others.  And my goodness, it's completely irrelevant what I have said or argued.  If you want to assert nagato is at a certain level, back that assertion up with an argument you have that buren of proof regardless of whatever anyone else says.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nagato being on the level to take EMS Madara has been reiterated in this thread a few times; Madara's proposed cards to victory are countered easily. Yet your side refuses this and uses misinterpretation of facts to keep on going.
> 
> Your portrayal hinges on Rinnegan Madara; you have absolutely nothing for EMS Madara in this case.


The only way those things work is if you completely ignore my arguments, and give nagato's abilities no limits while blinding yourself from what actually happens in the manga. Portrayal absolutely does not hinge on rinnegan madara, it hinges on edo madara I've literally given you an explicit and lengthy reasoning as to why that is, yet you've just chosen to ignore it.

What suggest that the PS edo madara used is any more powerful than the one EMS Madara uses?  NOTHING! Edo madara was using a fake rinnegan and we know he's far weaker to his living counterpart, therefore the claim that just because he had the rinnegan, his jutsu are all stronger than EMS goes out the window, now you have to support your argument with some other positive evidence.  On the otherhand, in support of my argument we have both the size of his PS being the same and the power of the slashes being the same.  We have madara telling ooonoki that he could have used that exact same jutsu at that exact same level to wipe him out, but didn't because he was a kid.  We have Madara saying it's the full power of uchiha madara, we have him saying statement about how hashirama could stop him and we even have his PS being only on the level of hashirama's mokujin which is exactly where it was with the EMS.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Being able to counter EMS users means everything when your case hinges *entirely* on the EMS power. Not once has your side ever hinged on anything OUTSIDE the EMS powers. Thus saying Nagato can counter the EMS, thus he can beat Madara will be a sufficient stance.


Absolutely not.  Being able to counter EMS users CONDITIONLESSLY means everything, the counters that you are postulating require nagato to somehow touch madara's PS and madara o just stand there and let him absorb the thing.  That's a condition nagato never fulfills, and therefore being able to 'counter' that jutsu means nothing.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If it isn't everything just to counter the EMS, then practice what you preach and stop making your argument rely on the EMS.


My argument doesn't rely on just the EMS, it relies on making comparisons between what the EMS gives Madara, and what Nagato can actually do with the rinnegan vs what EMS Madara can do with the PS, how their abilities stack up and who'd win.  It also takes into account the portrayal of both.  MAdara dominates both by a landslide, nagato has nothing he can do against 2 PS slashes, and he never touches PS nor does madara let him just sit there and absorb the entire construct without ending him.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What's more, going by your post you obviously don't understand how the Rinnegan's powers actually work. For instance you think PS needs to do nothing to be helpless; you don't understand how Preta Path works.
> 
> Here's a good way to make an amazing case for EMS Madara: understand how the opposition's jutsu works.
> Understand what the portrayal you're using actually says i.e. Rinnegan Madara's portrayal =/= EMS Madara's portrayal.
> ...


Show me exactly why preta path works differently than how I'm postulating it does, and CONDITIONLESSLY.  

The rest of the post is you being forced to dishonestly ignore my arguments.  Sure rinengan madara's portrayal =/= EMS MAdara's portrayal, but that's only for LIVING RINNEGAN MADARA.  EDO madara gets massively depowered which is why his PS gets the feats, hype, and portrayal of EMS MAdara's own PS, and that still wrecks all of edo madara's shown abilities that put him on another level than nagato.  You can't counter this, thus you've been forced to ignore it.  

Portrayal absolutely does not suggest that the rinnegan makes susanoo look like nothing, especially when nagato was defeated by a mere MS susanoo, got his arms sliced off by a skeletal susanoo, and  edo madara's strongest power is still PS despite having all of nagato's powers and more.  The only time rinnegan is concretely > EMS is when the rinnegan user is on the same level as the EMS user.  Nagato isn't on the same level as MAdara, take their eyes away, nagato gets roflstomped.  

THAT'S the portrayal argument, and that's why anyone who's not completely biased towards nagato knows that he's not on the level of EMS Madara, and why you're forced to extrapolate the rinnegan's powers to no limits in order to still LOSE this argument we're having.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 12, 2015)

Hmmm, I guess that Nagato has chances in this match.

I will  tell you why:

1? Nagato showed the ability of controlling attractive and repulsive forces and he can increase the scale, if he wants to. (Chou Shinra Tensei it's the prove of that).

He also showed the ability to use the Banshou Ten'in 2 times in a row (against Naruto Kyuubi Mode).

So, what is going to happen if he pulls the Susano'o to the right (for example) and pulls Madara towards him?

If he can increases the scale, he can do it.

Madara will be vulnerable for Shurado path, or Ningendo path.

And I wonder if he can chose to pull ONLY MADARA instead of the entire Susano'o. 

2? Nagato absorved Bee's 2nd version really quickly. He can use all the paths simultaneously.. Because of that, he can try to absorve the entire Susano'o and he can protect himself from Madara attacks, with Shinra Tensei or whatever.

Still, Madara it's levels ahead of Nagato... He had "rivalry" with Hashirama, and hashirama was a beast.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 12, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Hmmm, I guess that Nagato has chances in this match.
> 
> I will  tell you why:
> 
> ...



1. Nagato cant use that ability on a long distance. Plus, against PS, that ability is useless and we dont even know if it will work with imperfect Susanoo. Susanoo will be attracted to Nagatoo too. Its not like Gaara's sand, which worked from the inside. Also, Madara is too fast for Nagato, so is his Susanoo. His mokuton clones could tag V2 Ei with Susanoo. In general, Madara's speed feats are far above those of Nagato. And Madara can keep up with Susanoo which is pulled away by Nagato to stay inside his Susanoo. 
2. Since when Bee's 2 vertion is comparable to Madara's *imperfect* Susanoo, which can easily deflect Planetary Rasengan-level attacks and withstand 50% Kurama's elbow hit? He has never shown feats to suggest he can absorb Madara's Susanoo. Even Edo Madara told about Naruto's Rasen Shuriken that "that's too much power", or something like that, as i remember.
3. Nagato cant withstand series of Madara's PS shockwaves. And his ST has never deflected something *that* powerfull. So its debatable if Nagato can deflect even one PS's shockwave. 

Madara is on a completely different level. Nagato cant beat him in 1 on 1 fight.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 12, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 1. Nagato cant use that ability on a long distance. Plus, against PS, that ability is useless and we dont even know if it will work with imperfect Susanoo. Susanoo will be attracted to Nagatoo too. Its not like Gaara's sand, which worked from the inside. Also, Madara is too fast for Nagato, so is his Susanoo. His mokuton clones could tag V2 Ei with Susanoo. In general, Madara's speed feats are far above those of Nagato. And Madara can keep up with Susanoo which is pulled away by Nagato to stay inside his Susanoo.
> 2. Since when Bee's 2 vertion is comparable to Madara's *imperfect* Susanoo, which can easily deflect Planetary Rasengan-level attacks and withstand 50% Kurama's elbow hit? He has never shown feats to suggest he can absorb Madara's Susanoo. Even Edo Madara told about Naruto's Rasen Shuriken that "that's too much power", or something like that, as i remember.
> 3. Nagato cant withstand series of Madara's PS shockwaves. And his ST has never deflected something *that* powerfull. So its debatable if Nagato can deflect even one PS's shockwave.
> 
> Madara is on a completely different level. Nagato cant beat him in 1 on 1 fight.


Here we go again.

First off, Madara won't pull out his PS to begin with due to him being arrogant. And Nagato mops the floor with a PS-less Nagato  so right their Madara is done for.

Second even if pulling Madara out his PS won't work which it should because it's gravity, Preta path voids PS and Just like above A PS Madara gets done relatively easily.


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## Thunder (Feb 12, 2015)

Nagato absorbs everything. Even Madara himself. His entire body gets absorbed at start battle, the end.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 12, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Here we go again.
> 
> First off, Madara won't pull out his PS to begin with due to him being arrogant. And Nagato mops the floor with a PS-less Nagato  so right their Madara is done for.
> 
> Second even if pulling Madara out his PS won't work which it should because it's gravity, Preta path voids PS and Just like above A PS Madara gets done relatively easily.



Of course.

First off, Madara can pull out his PS the moment he sees Nagato's Rinnegan. And Nagato cant do much to his imperfect Susanoo anyway. Its too durable and too fast for Nagato. Nagato cant pull him out of Susanoo, because thats not how his Deva Path works. Susanoo will be pulled too. And by the way, its very big and with very powerfull chakra. Nagato might not be able to use Deva Path on Madara's imperfect Susanoo, except ST, which wont do anything to Madara's Susanoo. Nagato also hasnt shown feats to suggest he can absorb Madara's Susanoo. His pets are garbage to Madara. And CT can be destroyed with PS slashes.

Second, as i wrote up there, he might be able to pull in Madara *WITH* his Susanoo. Nagato cant pull Madara out of Susanoo, because thats not how his Deva Path works. In fact, Nagato will be pulling Susanoo, where Madara will be, instead of just Madara himself.

Nagato cant absorb PS and cant do anything about PS slashes. One slash and he is done. Plain and simple. 

Madara wrecks Nagato.


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## Thunder (Feb 12, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Second, as i wrote up there, he might be able to pull in Madara *WITH*  his Susanoo. Nagato cant pull Madara out of Susanoo, because thats not  how his Deva Path works. In fact, Nagato will be pulling Susanoo, where  Madara will be, instead of just Madara himself.



I hate to add to the Nagato side . . . but that's _exactly_ how Deva Path works. He pulled a _single_ _nail_ out of a wooden board and threw it at Kakashi [1] [2].

Susano is able to stand alone though [1] [2], so it's not like it matters if Nagato can rip Madara out of it. He'll get diced by perfect Susano slashes either way.

The rest of your post I'm in agreement with.


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## LostSelf (Feb 12, 2015)

I wonder if Nagato can pull out someone's eyes the same way he did to that nail....

It would be a very overpower move if he could do things like that.


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## Thunder (Feb 12, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I wonder if Nagato can pull out someone's eyes the same way he did to that nail....
> 
> It would be a very overpower move if he could do things like that.



Something just doesn't feel right about that lol. Take a rep.

But yeah, it should be theoretically possible I guess considering how easily eyes are ripped out in this manga. Though I imagine something like that would be difficult to pull off in the heat of battle. You'd need, like, perfect accuracy. And the nail wasn't ripped out instantly. 

Instinctively covering the eyes should stop it.


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## LostSelf (Feb 12, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Something just doesn't feel right about that lol. Take a rep.
> 
> But yeah, it should be theoretically possible I guess considering how easily eyes are ripped out in this manga. Though I imagine something like that would be difficult to pull off in the heat of battle. You'd need, like, perfect accuracy. And the nail wasn't ripped out instantly.
> 
> Instinctively covering the eyes should stop it.



In other words and independently of the difficulty, Nagato theoretically can make a person fight without using the eyes with 1) Pulling it out or 2) forcing the enemy to cover their eyes .


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## Thunder (Feb 12, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> In other words, Nagato theoretically can make a person fight without using the eyes with 1) Pulling it out or 2) forcing the enemy to cover their eyes .



*cough* Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi catch 22 *cough*

I see where you're going with this.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 12, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Of course.
> 
> First off, Madara can pull out his PS the moment he sees Nagato's Rinnegan. And Nagato cant do much to his imperfect Susanoo anyway. Its too durable and too fast for Nagato. Nagato cant pull him out of Susanoo, because thats not how his Deva Path works. Susanoo will be pulled too. And by the way, its very big and with very powerfull chakra. Nagato might not be able to use Deva Path on Madara's imperfect Susanoo, except ST, which wont do anything to Madara's Susanoo. Nagato also hasnt shown feats to suggest he can absorb Madara's Susanoo. His pets are garbage to Madara. And CT can be destroyed with PS slashes.
> 
> ...


With Madara's form of arrogance, that's unlikely.
What is that a joke imperfect susanoo gets absorbed by Preta. 
See that would of been a proper argument if he didn't pull the nail out of the wood with out the wood moving so Madara gets his ass dragged out. that is eactly how deva path works.
now why on earth would he use Deva path on an imperfect Susanoo when he can just absorb it relatively quick.
Don't Matter once in contact with Preta's absorption barrier PS is voided. 
Madara can't put down Cerberus who can tank the slashes for Nagato even though Nagato can sustain the ST variant.

Like i said above that's exactly how deva works and no he's only pulling Madara 

An emaciated Nagato can literally outrun his own ST but can't dodge a PS slash? On top of that his dogs can tank them for him and he has the ST barrier that he can  sustain. Ontop of that he has the chameleon he can hide in with out Madara finding him. As soon as he starts absorbing PS it's nulled. 

And more than likely Madara is not bringing out PS at the start of the match it's a last resort and due to it being a last result nagato would also see to it that it's his last move.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 12, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Hmmm, I guess that Nagato has chances in this match.
> 
> I will  tell you why:
> 
> 1? Nagato showed the ability of controlling attractive and repulsive forces and he can increase the scale, if he wants to. (Chou Shinra Tensei it's the prove of that).



 How will that work when Itachi's V3 Susanoo managed to withstand the gravitational pull of Nagato's Chibaku Tensei.



> He also showed the ability to use the Banshou Ten'in 2 times in a row (against Naruto Kyuubi Mode).



 KN6 Naruto is substantially weaker than Madara, esp. with his Susanoo.



> So, what is going to happen if he pulls the Susano'o to the right (for example) and pulls Madara towards him?



 I disproved why he can't as he couldn't pull Itachi out of his Susanoo.



> If he can increases the scale, he can do it.



 Maybe. Nagato's usual powerful Shinra Tensei doesn't compare to a Bijuudama from 100% Kurama which Madara's inferior PS (or V4 Susanoo) tanked.



> Madara will be vulnerable for Shurado path, or Ningendo path.



 How when he has PS which will withstand all of his attacks?



> And I wonder if he can chose to pull ONLY MADARA instead of the entire Susano'o.



 He can't as he can't do it against Itachi with Chibaku Tensei.



> 2? Nagato absorved Bee's 2nd version really quickly. He can use all the paths simultaneously.. Because of that, he can try to absorve the entire Susano'o and he can protect himself from Madara attacks, with Shinra Tensei or whatever.



 He can't defend himself against PS Shockwaves that can chop a mountain range.



> Still, Madara it's levels ahead of Nagato... He had "rivalry" with Hashirama, and hashirama was a beast.



 Indeed.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 13, 2015)

> With Madara's form of arrogance, that's unlikely.



Realy? Even after seeing the Rinnegan?



> What is that a joke imperfect susanoo gets absorbed by Preta.



Nagato has never shown feats to suggest he can absorb something as powerfull as Madara's imperfect Susanoo, which can deflect Planetary Rasengan-level attacks like they are nothing and withstand Tailed Beasts elbow hit.



> See that would of been a proper argument if he didn't pull the nail out of the wood with out the wood moving so Madara gets his ass dragged out. that is eactly how deva path works.



Did he put the nail that was under wood and wood wasnt pulled with nail? Madara's Susanoo covers him completely.



> now why on earth would he use Deva path on an imperfect Susanoo when he can just absorb it relatively quick.



Prove that Nagato can absorb Madara's imperfect Susanoo.



> Don't Matter once in contact with Preta's absorption barrier PS is voided.



Nagato cant absorb PS's slashes and PS's sword. He cant do anything to such a massive chakra. He has never displayed feats to suggest he can do something like that. And even Madara, the real owner of those ayes, sayd that simple Rasen Shuriken was "too much of energy". Am i right? 



> Madara can't put down Cerberus who can tank the slashes for Nagato even though Nagato can sustain the ST variant.



He dont need to. Serberus wont do anything to his imperfect Susanoo, let alone PS, which can tank full Kurama's Bijuu Dama without a scratch. And ST wont do anything with PS. It wont deflect its swords, since it cant even kill people in Konoha under Katsuya's protection, as i remember. The sword will continue to swing and Nagato dies.



> Like i said above that's exactly how deva works and no he's only pulling Madara



Scan please, as a proof of that. My internet right now is too bad to look it up myself. 



> An emaciated Nagato can literally outrun his own ST but can't dodge a PS slash? On top of that his dogs can tank them for him and he has the ST barrier that he can sustain. Ontop of that he has the chameleon he can hide in with out Madara finding him. As soon as he starts absorbing PS it's nulled.



Outrun ST? When did that happened? Scan please. 

PS's swing couldnt be dodged by all 5 Kage. And Hashirama, who outran Kurama's Bijuu Dama, couldnt outrun PS's slashes. Nagato dies.

Madara wont pay attention to those dogs, they wont do anything to his Susanoo anyway, even an imperfect one.

Nagato wont have a time to use Chameleon, since Madara is much faster and his Susanoo is much faster too. Also, Madara has EMS, so he might be able to see Nagato.

And lol at absorbing PS. First of all, Madara can kill him with that PS when Nagato starts to absorb it. Also, there is no way Nagato can absorb something like that. 

Or maybe you will say Nagato can absorb Tailed Beast? Because PS is just like a Bijuu, with comparable chakra amount and size. Nagato has no feats to suggest he can do something like that.



> And more than likely Madara is not bringing out PS at the start of the match it's a last resort and due to it being a last result nagato would also see to it that it's his last move.



Even if he doesnt - he still beats Nagato. He can stab Nagato when he starts to absorb Susanoo. And thats if he can absorb such a thing (i'll wait for proof). He can tire Nagato out with his Susanoo and later PS, since he has much bigger chakra reserves. He can withstand any of Nagato's attacks with his imperfect Susanoo + Nagato cant pull him out of there unless you can give me a proof he can. On top of that, even CT is easily countered with PS's slash. And when PS is out, Nagato has no chance at all. He wont even scratch PS and PS wont care about ST, which isnt powerfull enough to hold off PS's swings.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 13, 2015)

Guys, Madara like I said before, it's one of the strongest ninja even before getting his rinnegan. He was the only one that could give Hashirama some work.

However... You can't forget Nagato abilities at all...

The perfect Susano'o it's really a wonderful technique... But you are underestimating the repulsive and atrative forces.

Do not matter how strong the perfect Susano'o is... If Nagato uses a Chou Shinra Tensei focused in the perfect Susano'o head, for example, he is going to break it.. Or at least, put him on the ground.

After that, it's pretty easy to absorve with Gakido.

Like I said before, Madara is levels ahead of Nagato and is stronger than him... But Nagato has chances in this fight too.

Susano'o it's just chakra... Like we saw, he can't block sound (Hakugeki and Mugen Onsa) .. Because it's chakra.

Chakra it's energy... Spiritual Energy + Physical Energy... And Banshou ten'in it's a technique that pulls MATTER towards the user at will...

I can't understand why can't Nagato pulls Madara, without the entire Susano'o... It works in a different way that Baku (Danzou's Kuchiyose) .. Because it's a attrative force.

And when he used the Banshou Ten'in against the Kyuubi (pain x naruto), u can see that he didn't pull the entire mountain... He pulled the right size to stop the Kyuubi.

Unfortanelly, we will never know if this is possible or not.. Since the manga's over.

Shinra Tensei can repels everything that Nagato wants.. He did it at 360?, at 180?, and he focused it too... He never repelled his own paths because of that. Banshou Ten'in, in my opinion, it's exacly the same thing, he focus what he wants.

But whatever, I can't see How madara could answer when Nagato starts to absorve the entire Susano'o... Katons? Absorved or Repelled... Susano'o sword? Shurado, Shinra Tensei, and he can even use Gedo Mazo to distract it... And I don't see how can he use jutsus when he is getting absorved... Susano'o sword is nothing more than chakra too.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 13, 2015)

> Do not matter how strong the perfect Susano'o is... If Nagato uses a Chou Shinra Tensei focused in the perfect Susano'o head, for example, he is going to break it.. Or at least, put him on the ground.



What technique is more powerfull - full Kurama's Bijuu Dama, or Nagato's Shinra Tensei? Because PS not only withstood Bijuu Dama without any damage (except his nose, but that could be because his PS wasnt 100% stabilised at that moment), but wasnt even pushed back by it.



> After that, it's pretty easy to absorve with Gakido.



Nagato has never displayed feats to suggest he can absorb such a powerfull construct. And even if he tries, he can be easily killed during absorbtion time. Edo Madara sayd about Rasen Shuriken that *it was a little bit too much* after he absorbed it. Keep in mind Madara is the one who awekened Nagato's ayes. And Nagato has never displayed feats to suggest he can absorb even Madara's imperfect Susanoo.



> But Nagato has chances in this fight too.



Well, if Madara completely toys with him and doesnt use his abilities, than yes - Nagato can beat him. But if Madara is serious, Nagato dies. Because Madara is the stronger shinobi.



> Chakra it's energy... Spiritual Energy + Physical Energy... And Banshou ten'in it's a technique that pulls MATTER towards the user at will...



Susanoo is under  the rules of gravity. Its not just a chakra. Nagato can manipulate attractive forces. Do the math.



> I can't understand why can't Nagato pulls Madara, without the entire Susano'o... It works in a different way that Baku (Danzou's Kuchiyose) .. Because it's a attrative force.



Maybe ou'll show some of his feats to say he can pull Madara out of Susanoo? It doesnt matter about the size of attractive force - he cant make it on a molecular level. And Susanoo covers Madara completely.



> But whatever, I can't see How madara could answer when Nagato starts to absorve the entire Susano'o... Katons? Absorved or Repelled... Susano'o sword? Shurado, Shinra Tensei, and he can even use Gedo Mazo to distract it... And I don't see how can he use jutsus when he is getting absorved... Susano'o sword is nothing more than chakra too.



PS sword is too powerfull for Nagato to absorb, and PS's swords shockwaves will cut Nagato down. Nagato cant counter PS's swords swings.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 13, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Guys, Madara like I said before, it's one of the strongest ninja even before getting his rinnegan. He was the only one that could give Hashirama some work.
> 
> However... You can't forget Nagato abilities at all...
> 
> ...



 I'm not going to argue anymore unless you can explain how Nagato can pull Madara out of his Susanoo when his Chibaku Tensei meant to kill KCM Naruto, Bee, and Itachi failed to pull Itachi out of his V3 Susanoo.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'm not going to argue anymore unless you can explain how Nagato can pull Madara out of his Susanoo when his Chibaku Tensei meant to kill KCM Naruto, Bee, and Itachi failed to pull Itachi out of his V3 Susanoo.


Chibaku Tensei pulls up everything. As we saw Nagato has the option to pull one thing without the other. -snip-


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Realy? Even after seeing the Rinnegan?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes you seem to underestimate Madara's arrogance.

Why would Susanoo's durability even matter? He's absorbing the dam thing not attacking it. 
Madara can slip through his Susanoo so either way you have it he's coming out without his PS going with him look it up yourself to lazy to and ontop of that time is of the essence.
You are the one who should be providing proof. We no of Preta's ability and it was not given a limit even through Preta path himself.
Of course he can't absorb slashes tf? Not only does Preta absorbs ninjutsu but it voids it as well. So yea he's absorbing PS. Why is PS an exception in Preta absorption are you suggesting it's not ninjutsu? 
Madara said the rasen Shuriken was a lot of energy. Dam guess rasen Shuriken doesn't contain alot of energy,Weird.. 

Who said Cerberus has to attack? He simply tanks the hit for Nagato. And since you guys are so interested in his PS slash spamming (which never does) if we take that moronic claim into debate he throws a frenzy of slashes in which Cerberus tanks what happens then? Madara is stuck with a frenzy of wild Rinnegan-having Dogs. so yea that would be real smart on Madara's part. 
never said use ST as for an offensive purpose in this case more of a defensive purpose, where he sustains the ST barrier to not get harmed by PS's slashes. ST soloed 3 huge ass toads but can't stop a PS sword slash, You really need a filter on what you write. And no before Madara even realizes and says wow i need PS. Nagato would have already finished him off because like i stated before a PS-less Madara gets obliterated by Nagato. You do realize PS is the only thing stopping Nagato from smoking him out hastily.

Did you not see Pain vs Kakashi? Im not here to educate people about the manga, unfortunately for you i just debate.

Guessing you didn't see Nagato vs Bee either. When he ST'd Bee and as he was flying from the ST he literally came right behind him.

If im correct don't recall anyone getting hurt by Madara's PS slashes. In fact the literally destroy landscapes but don't seem to stagger the opponent. 
That's cool he doesn't need to pay attention to them but when he's swinging their tanking it and multiplying.
Won't have time tf? it's in character for Nagato to bring out chameleons basically at the beginning. And what is Madara gonna do about it? dash to Nagato only for him to get Boss size ST'd In which would most likely kill him or immobilize him greatly. So either way he's getting in that chameleon. It was never stated that EMS gives you that type of superiority to actually see the Chameleon.
You not understanding Preta voids and absorbs ninjutsu so bye bye PS.
Not sure if this means anything but it was stated that V2 is a compressed tailed beast.

Oh, and please explain to me how Madara survives at the beginning of the match the guy will probably start with combat in which he gets Boss sized ST'd or katons in which get absorbed. If PS doesn't come out in the beginning Nagato humiliates the fool. You can tell because everyone's argument is centered around PS disregarding the fact that It's either bring PS out at the beginning of the match or get smoked out for not doing so.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Chibaku Tensei pulls up everything. As we saw Nagato has the option to pull one thing without the other. What type of trash is this?



 So thus, his gravitational pull can't pull Madara out of his Susanoo.

 Please show me the feat that suggests Nagato can pull Madara out of Susanoo. 

 ^ Also, any feats to suggest that Nagato can absorb PS instantaneously? Madara couldn't absorb the mass Jinton produced by Onoki or Mei's Suiton and used an inferior Susanoo to easily break through those jutsus and we all know Madara's usage of the Rinnegan dwarfs Nagato's usage considering they're Madara's eyes. The fact that he couldn't absorb those moves and his inferior Susanoo easily broke through those attacks with ease suggests Nagato can't absorb something like that instantly, not without getting his head chopped off.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So thus, his gravitational pull can't pull Madara out of his Susanoo.
> 
> Please show me the feat that suggests Nagato can pull Madara out of Susanoo.
> 
> ^ Also, any feats to suggest that Nagato can absorb PS instantaneously? Madara couldn't absorb the mass Jinton produced by Onoki or Mei's Suiton and used an inferior Susanoo to easily break through those jutsus and we all know Madara's usage of the Rinnegan dwarfs Nagato's usage considering they're Madara's eyes. The fact that he couldn't absorb those moves and his inferior Susanoo easily broke through those attacks with ease suggests Nagato can't absorb something like that instantly, not without getting his head chopped off.


CT pulls up everything. Nagato has shown us that he can pull the nail out of the wood without pulling the wood. He can just pull Madara out of PS without pulling PS.

Who said anything about it being instantaneous? Doesn't matter how long it takes once in contact with Preta's barrier it get voided and absorbed. 

PS is a ninjutsu so don't act like it's miraculously an exception to Preta Path.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 14, 2015)

> Yes you seem to underestimate Madara's arrogance.



As you seem to overestimate Madara's arrogance.



> Why would Susanoo's durability even matter? He's absorbing the dam thing not attacking it.



Madara's *imperfec*t Susanoo is a chakra construct with chakra more powerfull than anything Nagato has ever absorbed. Nagato lacks feats to suggest he can absorb it. And if Rasen Shuriken is *a little bit too much* for Madara, the real owner of those ayes, than, well, do the math yourself.



> Madara can slip through his Susanoo so either way you have it he's coming out without his PS going with him look it up yourself to lazy to and ontop of that time is of the essence.
> You are the one who should be providing proof. We no of Preta's ability and it was not given a limit even through Preta path himself.
> Of course he can't absorb slashes tf? Not only does Preta absorbs ninjutsu but it voids it as well. So yea he's absorbing PS. Why is PS an exception in Preta absorption are you suggesting it's not ninjutsu?
> Madara said the rasen Shuriken was a lot of energy. Dam guess rasen Shuriken doesn't contain alot of energy,Weird..



1. Prove Nagato can use attractive forse in such a distance.
2. No, it is you who sayd that he can absorb Madara's PS, or imperfect Susanoo with Preta Path. So it is you who should provide proofs. Also, even Madara told about Rasen Shuriken that its a little bit too much.
3. LOL, can you prove slashes are ninjutsu? because they seem to be physical side effects of PS's blade swings (shockwaves).
4. Its a ninjutsu, but it contains too powerfull chakra for Nagato to absorb. Nagato cant absorb a construct with Tailed Beast level chakra. He has never done that, ever. He cant absorb PS. And the moment he tries will be his last because of PS's swings.
5. *A little bit too much, not a lot of energy.* I guess Rasen Shuriken put Madara to his absorbtion limitations.



> Who said Cerberus has to attack? He simply tanks the hit for Nagato. And since you guys are so interested in his PS slash spamming (which never does) if we take that moronic claim into debate he throws a frenzy of slashes in which Cerberus tanks what happens then? Madara is stuck with a frenzy of wild Rinnegan-having Dogs. so yea that would be real smart on Madara's part.
> never said use ST as for an offensive purpose in this case more of a defensive purpose, where he sustains the ST barrier to not get harmed by PS's slashes. ST soloed 3 huge ass toads but can't stop a PS sword slash, You really need a filter on what you write. And no before Madara even realizes and says wow i need PS. Nagato would have already finished him off because like i stated before a PS-less Madara gets obliterated by Nagato. You do realize PS is the only thing stopping Nagato from smoking him out hastily.



Who said Cerberus can damage Madara's imperfect Susanoo, let alone PS?

Cerberus cant react to PS's hits, Nagato cant use him as a protection just in time to block PS's slashes because they are too fast for him. And i highly doubt Cerberus can tank it. It might go through Cerberus, than Cerberus will just split in 2 Cerberuses.

Those huge toads are nothing compared to the sheer forse of PS's blade swings, which can cut mountains in half. Ps's blade swings will continue to go right through ST and will cut Nagato in half. His most powrfull ST cant even kill people in Konoha which were protected by Katsuyu, lol.

I dont care what you stated unless you can bring some logic, commom sense and arguements to back your statements up. Until this moment, you cant. PS-less Madara, with imperfect Susanoo, can withstand Nagato's Deva Path and tank whatever Nagato has, including Cerberus. And Madara is much faster than Nagato, he can aither tire Nagato out, or use pauses between Nagato's techniques, or kill him when Nagato tries to close the distance for Soul Rip.



> Did you not see Pain vs Kakashi? Im not here to educate people about the manga, unfortunately for you i just debate.



I saw that, but i still want to see a proof Nagato can pull Madara out of Susanoo without pulling Susanoo itself.



> Guessing you didn't see Nagato vs Bee either. When he ST'd Bee and as he was flying from the ST he literally came right behind him.



Bee's Tails chakra mode was nothing compared to Madara's *imperfect* Susanoo, and Madara is much faster than Nagato.



> If im correct don't recall anyone getting hurt by Madara's PS slashes. In fact the literally destroy landscapes but don't seem to stagger the opponent.
> That's cool he doesn't need to pay attention to them but when he's swinging their tanking it and multiplying.
> Won't have time tf? it's in character for Nagato to bring out chameleons basically at the beginning. And what is Madara gonna do about it? dash to Nagato only for him to get Boss size ST'd In which would most likely kill him or immobilize him greatly. So either way he's getting in that chameleon. It was never stated that EMS gives you that type of superiority to actually see the Chameleon.
> You not understanding Preta voids and absorbs ninjutsu so bye bye PS.
> Not sure if this means anything but it was stated that V2 is a compressed tailed beast.




AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, so Madara's PS's swings can be tanked by people, although they can cut Hashirama's Wood Constructs and mountains like butter? Thats what are you trying to say? 

Ok, they are multiplying. So what? They still cant damage Madara's PS and even his imperfect Susanoo. Madara will just attack Nagato himself and, since Cerberuses arent as fast as Madara, they wont give him much trouble.

Madara can swing around with his PS's blades, or see Nagato with his EMS (but thats debatable), or hit Nagato before Nagato can use Chameleons. And Nagato didnt use it at the start of his battle with KCM naruto and Bee.

Boss ST gets sh*t on by Madara's imperfect, or perfect Susanoo.

It cant absorb such a construct in a moment and there is no proof he can absorb it in the first place. Thats your fantasy out there.

Thus, V2 has much less chakra than a full Tailed Beast. But ok, you think Nagato can absorb full 8 Tails? Prove it.



> Oh, and please explain to me how Madara survives at the beginning of the match the guy will probably start with combat in which he gets Boss sized ST'd or katons in which get absorbed. If PS doesn't come out in the beginning Nagato humiliates the fool. You can tell because everyone's argument is centered around PS disregarding the fact that It's either bring PS out at the beginning of the match or get smoked out for not doing so.



Susanoo. He fought Shinobi Alliance in that way because there were lots of fodders and because he was an Edo. He fought Hashirama in CQC because he could, but he also actively used his Susanoo against Hashirama.

Also, aside from their character, EMS Madara is clearly more powerfull shinobi.

Anyway, Madara can counter anything Nagato has in his arsenal. Madara can stab him during absorbtion (and there is no proof he can completely absorb something as Madara's Susanoo), Madara can tire him out, Madara can use his PS to stomp Nagato. 

Madara wins.


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## LostSelf (Feb 14, 2015)

Thunder said:


> *cough* Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi catch 22 *cough*
> 
> I see where you're going with this.



Every day we find a new advantage of the Rinnegan compared with the other doujutsus


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> CT pulls up everything. Nagato has shown us that he can pull the nail out of the wood without pulling the wood. He can just pull Madara out of PS without pulling PS.



 You must be desperate if you're comparing the mass of a nail to Madara's PS 



> Who said anything about it being instantaneous? Doesn't matter how long it takes once in contact with Preta's barrier it get voided and absorbed.



 Doesn't refute Madara's inability of absorbing weaker attacks when Madara literally outran the attacks yet he could've absorb the jutsus which Madara's inferior PS managed to break through. 



> PS is a ninjutsu so don't act like it's miraculously an exception to Preta Path.



 PS Shockwaves are Ninjutsu?


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> As you seem to overestimate Madara's arrogance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you recall Madara being humble and not putting everyone below him? Yea me neither.
Since when was it stated Preta Path couldn't absorb all types of chakra? Power of chakra has never stopped it before. Where did he say it was too much for him to absorb? he absorbed it no prob Tf?
How do you know he's going to be far away from it.. Even then if he can get that far a distance while emaciated and sneak up behind bee why can't he hold up the ST barrier and make it to PS.
Your the one who needs to provide proof it was already stated that Preta can absorb any ninjutsu, so wheres your evidence saying PS is any different from ninjutsu? On top of that Madara himself stated it wasn't wise to use ninjutsu against Preta. He absorbed the whole thing pretty quickly so how was it a bit too much? On top of that Nagato absorbed Bee's V2 and nothing ever implied that was his limit. On top of that Preta Path him self absorbed Jariya's ultra big ball rasengan pretty quickly and that was through a Path. 
It's beyond moronic to believe Rasenshuriken can pose as a limit to Preta especially when it was stated to absorb all Ninjutsu.
once he starts absorbing PS is voided so slashes are not a problem.

Yea who did say that i definitely didn't. I said it can be used to tank the slashes. Oh so his speed is so fast that he can attack Nagato while Cerberus is summoned and Nagato is already behind it.
Madara has no way to put down Cerberus so he can keep tanking the slashes and nagato can also sustain the ST barrier. once Madara realizes his slashes aren't getting through theres going to be several dogs on the field. So good luck with that.
Your forgeting this is Nagato and what's more is that this  Prime Nagato. The Deva path who was getting chakra channeled to him by a weakened Nagato that was far away was able to solo those toads and turn Konoha into a crater, so im pretty sure a prime Nagato would to stop that slash. Madara's slashes chopped the tops of the mountain and if i do recall he has never hindered anyone with those slashes.
Your the one talking about common sense/ your here trying to contradict the fact that PS is ninjutsu FOH!
The fuck is an imperfect Susanoo going to do to Nagato anything he throws at him gets absorbed on top of that is PS has no way to put down Cerberus why would an incomplete Susanoo be able to
Where was Nagato or Madara's chakra levels ever calced? You can't say either o them have greater than the other.
If Madara is within a close distance to Nagato he's getting smoked out boss size ST gets him outta here!
He pulled the nail out of the wood with out the wood moving. Madara can slip in and out of his Susanoo so why can't Nagato drag him out?

V2 was said to be a compressed tailed beast. Speed s helping Madara here because Nagato can just send him flying with ST
His shockwaves literally went outwards spreading everywhere it destroyed everything around but didn't even hinder the opponent.
I don't care if they can't harm PS stop bringing that nonsense up because im obviously not debating that. If it multiplies there will be several dogs to tank the slashes for nagato.
Madara himself handle Nagato is that a joke? a boss sized ST ends him PS is the only thing stopping Nagato from ending it ridiculously fast.

That sharingan precognition has stopped being emphasized for a while now.
PS definitely isn't getting brought out before the chameleon. So what's stopping Nagato from getting to his chameleon then disappearing without Madara finding him then reappear and end Madara with a boss sized ST. It's not out of character for Nagato to place his summonings on the field near the beginning of the match.
Notice how i said He gets boss sized ST when out of PS and Madara is trying to close combat him or get close to him in general.

never said it can absorb PS in moments but the thing is once in contact with the absorption barrier it gets voided. And PS is still ninjutsu correct? So it still gets absorbed by Preta unless you can provide a reason of how it isn't ninjutsu. How is that a fantasy when it was stated several times? That's a real fantasy.

I was just stating that it was said didn't wasn't saying he can absorb tailed beast with no problems.

Hashirama is the only person that he deems a worthy opponent, So of course he's going to use Susanoo.

Unless you can prove how PS isn't ninjutsu then that statement is still up for debate.
No it's the other way around Nagato counters Madara's arsenal
Umm No preta voids ninjutsu.
More proof suggesting  he can(as it was stated numerous times how it voids and absorbs any ninjutsu) than there is suggesting he cannot. 
like i said before when were their chakra levels actually calced?
nope Cerberus tanks the slashes for Nagato or sustains the ST barrier then proceeds to absorb and void PS. Unless you believe PS isn't ninjutsu?


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You must be desperate if you're comparing the mass of a nail to Madara's PS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


-snip-
Damn that sucks for Madara but this is Nagato we are talking about. just because he chose not to absorb Ninjutsu doesn't mean he couldn't. It was already stated that all ninjutsu gets absorbed by Preta. On top of that breaking something and absorbing something are radically different

-snip-


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> You must be a moron if that's what you got out of reading that, because i didn't know that Nagato was going to drag PS rather than drag Madara.



 So how does his gravitational pull ignore PS's mass? 



> Damn that sucks for Madara but this is Nagato we are talking about. just because he chose not to absorb Ninjutsu doesn't mean he couldn't. It was already stated that all ninjutsu gets absorbed by Preta. On top of that breaking something and absorbing something are radically different



 Madara is shown to be superior in using the Rinnegan considering they're his eyes. 



> What you can't read clearly or something?



 No, I read everything, it's just that most of it was -snip-


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## StarWanderer (Feb 14, 2015)

> Do you recall Madara being humble and not putting everyone below him? Yea me neither.



But Nagato has the Rinnegan, legendary dodjutsu which was possessed by Hagoromo himself. It'll be stupid for Madara to underestimate such an opponent. So there is a big chance he can pull out PS from the start. And then, Nagato dies.



> Since when was it stated Preta Path couldn't absorb all types of chakra? Power of chakra has never stopped it before. Where did he say it was too much for him to absorb? he absorbed it no prob Tf?



And Nagato has never absorbed something as powerfull as Madara's imperfect Susanoo before, let alone PS.

He sayd it was *"a little bit too much"* after he absorbed it. 



> How do you know he's going to be far away from it.. Even then if he can get that far a distance while emaciated and sneak up behind bee why can't he hold up the ST barrier and make it to PS.



Wow, such a level of fantasy out there. Prove that he can make a ST barrier.

And lol at making it to PS. One shockwave is enough to kill him.



> Your the one who needs to provide proof it was already stated that Preta can absorb any ninjutsu, so wheres your evidence saying PS is any different from ninjutsu? On top of that Madara himself stated it wasn't wise to use ninjutsu against Preta. He absorbed the whole thing pretty quickly so how was it a bit too much? On top of that Nagato absorbed Bee's V2 and nothing ever implied that was his limit. On top of that Preta Path him self absorbed Jariya's ultra big ball rasengan pretty quickly and that was through a Path.



It was never stated Nagato's Preta Path can absorb ninjutsu *no matter how powerfull it is*. And he never absorbed such a powerfull chakra. So, here you go.

I'd be interesting to see a scan from manga where Madara states such a thing. Its not wise to use ninjutsu against Nagato if you are not very strong with it. Madara's Susanoo is too powerfull.

He sayd that. And there was no sense for him to lie. So yeah, a little bit too much.

Ultra Big Ball Rasengan <<< SM Naruto's Rasen Shuriken. V2 Bee is debatable, but V2 Bee is <<<<< Madara's Susanoo.



> It's beyond moronic to believe Rasenshuriken can pose as a limit to Preta especially when it was stated to absorb all Ninjutsu.
> once he starts absorbing PS is voided so slashes are not a problem.



Its moronic to think his Preta Path has no limitations to how much and how powerfull chakra it can absorb. Nagato's body is limitlessly powerfull and can absorb Kaguya's chakra with his Preta Path? And Rasen Shuriken is a very powerfull technique, after all. 

1. Prove that he can absorb PS.
2. Prove that if he tries to absorb it, slashes are not a problem.



> Yea who did say that i definitely didn't. I said it can be used to tank the slashes. Oh so his speed is so fast that he can attack Nagato while Cerberus is summoned and Nagato is already behind it.



Prove it can tank slashes and slashes wont go right through Cerberus.

And his speed is enough to not give Nagato a chance to tank his slashes. Plus, even if Nagato can tank few (which you still have to prove), Madara can slash more. 



> Madara has no way to put down Cerberus so he can keep tanking the slashes and nagato can also sustain the ST barrier. once Madara realizes his slashes aren't getting through theres going to be several dogs on the field. So good luck with that.
> Your forgeting this is Nagato and what's more is that this Prime Nagato. The Deva path who was getting chakra channeled to him by a weakened Nagato that was far away was able to solo those toads and turn Konoha into a crater, so im pretty sure a prime Nagato would to stop that slash. Madara's slashes chopped the tops of the mountain and if i do recall he has never hindered anyone with those slashes.
> Your the one talking about common sense/ your here trying to contradict the fact that PS is ninjutsu FOH!
> The fuck is an imperfect Susanoo going to do to Nagato anything he throws at him gets absorbed on top of that is PS has no way to put down Cerberus why would an incomplete Susanoo be able to
> ...



That doesnt mean slashes cant go right through Cerberus. Prove that Cerberus has a durability high enough to tank PS's slashes.

Prove that Nagato can sustain ST barrier. 

Toads are not even close to the power of PS. They cant cut several mountains in one swing of theirs. They do not have durability on that level. And Konoha's destruction doesnt prove ST will do any damage to PS, or push it back. Full Kurama's Bijuu Dama couldnt push it back.

And you wrote about something moroic? LOL. Its pretty moronic to think Madara, who can cut several mountains in one swing and cut Hashirama's wood constructs, cant cut anyone because he never cut anyone. Thats stupid, moronic and very trolling-like. 

He can cut mountain anyway he wants without effort. Middle, top - it doesnt realy matter due to how easily he could cut them during his fight with Hashirama and with 5 kage.

Ok, lets put it this way. Nagato's Preta Path is limitless and can absorb any amount of chakra no matter how powerfull it is? PS is a tailed beast chakra level construct. Can Nagato absorb 7 Tails? Or 8 Tails? 

Imperfect Susanoo tanks everything Nagato has in his arsenal. PS laughs at Nagato's arsenal. And you still have to prove Cerberus has durability level enough to not be cut through by PS's slashes, because, as i remember, even Amaterasu could take out Cerberus. Also, Madara doesnt need to attack Cerberus - he will attack Nagato himself. 

Madara has better chakra feats. He can use a Susanoo which can compete with Tailed Beasts without any effort. And he can fight for the whole day. Nagato doesnt have such feats. 

It could be very little-sized attactive force to go among woods, ich did not cover nail completely, as Susanoo covers Madara. And i'll wait for a scan of that nail thing.

Boss size ST wont do anything.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 14, 2015)

Why can't Nagato absorve a entire Bijuu? lol

We saw on the manga that when u absorve chakra u revitalize ur own body. Nagato did it himself when absorved the version 2 from Bee.

If Nagato were going to absorve a entire Bijuu (just like Kisame absorved Hachibi's chakra like 3,4 times, tentacles included) he just needs to transform the chakra in Physical Energy.

And forget about that dude.. Hashirama chakra's was the same than the Nine-tails, or almost.. Madara doesn't have more chakra than Hashirama, not the FMS one.

EMS Madara is a beast, i already said it. But Nagato is a beast too.

And answering u... Chou Shinra Tensei focused >>>>>> Bijuu Dama.

Even Shurado strongest attack could damage the Susano'o, if it was spammed like 10 times.

And comparing Chibaku with Banshou Ten'n it's like 

ON Chibaku, Nagato can't choose what he wants to pull. He sends that orb, and gives chakra to sustain it...

Banshou Ten'in it's COMPLETELY different.


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## Thunder (Feb 14, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Every day we find a new advantage of the Rinnegan compared with the other doujutsus



Don't give sanninme rikudo any more ammo dude. 

Seriously though. While the Rinnegan reigns supreme amongst the three great dōjutsu, the shinobi himself is more important than the tool he wields. Zetsu explained this [1].

Nagato never unlocked the full potential of the Rinnegan because the eyes were never his to begin with.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 14, 2015)

> V2 was said to be a compressed tailed beast. Speed s helping Madara here because Nagato can just send him flying with ST
> His shockwaves literally went outwards spreading everywhere it destroyed everything around but didn't even hinder the opponent.
> I don't care if they can't harm PS stop bringing that nonsense up because im obviously not debating that. If it multiplies there will be several dogs to tank the slashes for nagato.
> Madara himself handle Nagato is that a joke? a boss sized ST ends him PS is the only thing stopping Nagato from ending it ridiculously fast.



V2 is nowhere near the chakra level of full Bijuu.

Speed of his imperfect and perfect Susanoo helps him a lot.

Its laughable, realy. Madara cut mountains in half easily and cut Hashirama's wood constructs, but he cant cut a human, because he never did it in Manga? LOL. Maybe i shouldnt take you seriously after that. 

Prove that slashes wont go right through Cerberuses. Prove that they have durability on a level enough to withstand PS's slashes.

No, its not. Because Nagato cant take him down. His imperfect Susanoo is already enough to withstand anything Nagato has. PS is an overkill. And, after seeing the Rinnegan, Madara can make PS from the start.



> That sharingan precognition has stopped being emphasized for a while now.
> PS definitely isn't getting brought out before the chameleon. So what's stopping Nagato from getting to his chameleon then disappearing without Madara finding him then reappear and end Madara with a boss sized ST. It's not out of character for Nagato to place his summonings on the field near the beginning of the match.
> Notice how i said He gets boss sized ST when out of PS and Madara is trying to close combat him or get close to him in general.



Slashes everywhere on battlefield and he'd know where Nagato is. And Madara's PS's making is quick actually. Summoning also takes some time, you know.

And lol at boss sized ST, which will be fart on by PS.

If not out of character for Madara to pull his PS in the beginning.

Prove that Nagato can take him out of PS. PS is different from imperfect Susanoo and you havent prove Nagato can pull him out of imperfect Susanoo.



> never said it can absorb PS in moments but the thing is once in contact with the absorption barrier it gets voided. And PS is still ninjutsu correct? So it still gets absorbed by Preta unless you can provide a reason of how it isn't ninjutsu. How is that a fantasy when it was stated several times? That's a real fantasy.



Nagato gets slashed while trying to absorb it. And Nagato cant absorb such a big and powerfull chakra. The fantasy is that Nagato's Preta Path has no limitations at all. Thats what i am calling a fantasy.



> I was just stating that it was said didn't wasn't saying he can absorb tailed beast with no problems.



Absorbing PS is the same as absorbing full Tailed Beasts. Both are made of chakra. And both have chakra comparable to each other. Thats the thing. Prove that Nagato can absorb PS.



> Hashirama is the only person that he deems a worthy opponent, So of course he's going to use Susanoo.



And someone with SoSP's dodjutsu isnt a worthy opponent. Alright.



> Unless you can prove how PS isn't ninjutsu then that statement is still up for debate.
> No it's the other way around Nagato counters Madara's arsenal
> Umm No preta voids ninjutsu.
> More proof suggesting he can(as it was stated numerous times how it voids and absorbs any ninjutsu) than there is suggesting he cannot.
> ...



Already commented that. And i'll wait a proof from you.
Maara's imperfect Susanoo will give lots of trouble to Nagato. PS is completely uncountarable for Nagato.
Prove that Preta Path has no limitations.
By feats, Madara's chakra reserves are >>>>Nagato's chakra reserves. And on top of that, Madara has Indra's chakra inside of him.
Prove, prove and prove. I dont care about your fantasies.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 14, 2015)

*Keep the debate friendly and don't directly attack your opponent when you're refuting his arguments.*


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## StarWanderer (Feb 14, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Why can't Nagato absorve a entire Bijuu? lol
> 
> We saw on the manga that when u absorve chakra u revitalize ur own body. Nagato did it himself when absorved the version 2 from Bee.
> 
> ...



He has *no feats* to suggest he can absorb a full Bijuu. He *has never, ever* absorbed a chakra that powerfull, the same is for Kisame, who couldnt absorb a full 8 Tails into his Samehada. Also, its kinda debatable if Samehada is better, or worse than Preta Path. 

Shinra Tensei focused >>>> Bijuu Dama... Oh well, now i want you to prove that to me. 

And what is Shurado?


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## Thunder (Feb 14, 2015)

Shuradō is Asura Path. The guy who shoots missiles.

Samehada has more limitations in terms of what can absorb because it's just a sword at the end of the day. A _sentient_ sword. Which might explain why it couldn't stand to absorb Bee's chakra all at once. It began feeling "full" and stopped. 

According to the databook, Fūjutsu Kyūin (Preta Path's jutsu) _disperses_ chakra throughout the body rather than storing it up someplace like Samehada does. So it's a bit different.

Still, absorbing something on the level of perfect Susano may be too much. We can't be completely sure on that.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> But Nagato has the Rinnegan, legendary dodjutsu which was possessed by Hagoromo himself. It'll be stupid for Madara to underestimate such an opponent. So there is a big chance he can pull out PS from the start. And then, Nagato dies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Madara called Nagato and Obito brats, im sure his arrogance will get the best off him.
Preta path was stated to absorb all ninjutsu. PS is still a ninjutsu.
It was too much? meanwhile he absorbed it with no problems and relatively quick.
Man that's 3 in a row you didn't see the Naruto vs Pain fight either. Not when he has several summonings to tank them.
Dam i guess it wasn't stated several times that Preta Path absorbs and voids any ninjutsu.
What do you just skip around in the Manga?
Um no he said it was alot. And he absorbed it easily and quickly.
Prime Nagato>>>>>>>>Preta Path.
Time is the only thing that holds significance in your argument because why can't he absorb all of PS's chakra what's going to happen overload?
Prove that it wasn't stated that preta absorbs and voids all ninjutsu
Even if you think they will go right through them which is unlikely it is brainless to think it can go through all the dogs and then reach Nagato and still hinder him. PS can't put down the dogs so they continue to tank it. 
Read Naruto vs Pain again.
Minato warped away Kurama's Bjuudama and it didn't level the area relative to CST
Let me play your game for a sec. Prove PS slashes hindered Hashi
It was never given a limit was it?
Preta absorbs incomplete Susanoo its chakra is nowhere close to PS stop being nonsensical.
Ama burns things down slashes do not. What type of garbage is this?
It was said that PS's power rivals Tailed beasts not it's chakra.
An emaciated Nagato channeled chakra through 6 of his paths, was far away from the paths, was able to use CST and level Konaha, used a boss sized ST that soloed 3 toads, used ST several other times, captured naruto if not for Hinata, used CT and stated he could have made it bigger then to top it off he revived everyone he killed. Like i said you can't say either has greater chakra.
Laws of gravity apply everywhere and Nagato manipulates it so Madara is going through that Susanoo.
You must be either a fool or on bathsalts to believe a boss sized ST isn't ending Madara when he's attempting to use close combat. And if deep down you truly believe that then don't bother replying.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 14, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Don't give sanninme rikudo any more ammo dude.
> 
> Seriously though. While the Rinnegan reigns supreme amongst the three great dōjutsu, the shinobi himself is more important than the tool he wields. Zetsu explained this [1].
> 
> Nagato never unlocked the full potential of the Rinnegan because the eyes were never his to begin with.


Lol more ammo


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## Thunder (Feb 14, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Lol more ammo



You're holding down the Nagato side on your own and haven't given up yet. I can respect that.

Your pain is clearly greater than ours.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 14, 2015)

I will repeat myself: Madara wins this.

What I wanted you to see is that Nagato has chances too.

Simple this way...

We never saw any limitation from Gakido, he absorved everything (- combine attacks). Why cant him absorve the Susano'o?

But let's forget about the Gakido, tho...

Tell me: 

I took a look on the conditions of this fight..

They have NO KNOWLEDGE about each other. This means that Madara doesn't know about Rinnegan in this fight, right?

I'm asking this because in other foruns it works like this... 

Without any Knowledge, I don't see Madara going on rampage since the start.. If he didn't do that against the 5 KAGES.

StarWanderer, I ask you:

Prove to me, then, why bijuu dama >> CHOU shinra tensei focused ?

If the Chou Shinra Tensei used on Konoha (that wasn't focused and was used by a PATH), did all that damage on Konoha, imagine all the gravity IN ONE POINT.

ALL THE REPULSIVE FORCE in THE SAME point. Dude, he was going to open a hole in the perfect Susano'o, lolol

But ofc i can't prove this.. And ou can't prove urself too.

The manga didn't shw anything about Bijuu dama vs shinra tensei. 

If u talk about the Tenpenchi used by Juubi, i agree that Tenpenchi >> CST focused. But the normal Bijuu dama, nop.


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## LostSelf (Feb 14, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Don't give sanninme rikudo any more ammo dude.
> 
> Seriously though. While the Rinnegan reigns supreme amongst the three great dōjutsu, the shinobi himself is more important than the tool he wields. Zetsu explained this [1].
> 
> Nagato never unlocked the full potential of the Rinnegan because the eyes were never his to begin with.



This is true. And Sasuke is a proof of such a thing, even though his powers were greatly bigger because of the Harogromo Chakra. 

Oh, but i wasn't comparing Rinnegan with Madara, though. I know Nagato cannot counter PS. At best one shot, but not the others.

But i wouldn't use Zetsu as a source. The man saw Madara fighting Hashirama, yet, didn't know what Susano'o was when Itachi used it .


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## StarWanderer (Feb 15, 2015)

> Madara called Nagato and Obito brats, im sure his arrogance will get the best off him.
> Preta path was stated to absorb all ninjutsu. PS is still a ninjutsu.
> It was too much? meanwhile he absorbed it with no problems and relatively quick.
> Man that's 3 in a row you didn't see the Naruto vs Pain fight either. Not when he has several summonings to tank them.
> ...



If we are talking about prime EMS Madara, the one who fought Hashirama in The Valley of The End, than he has never seen The Rinnegan, he never knew Nagato, or Obito. Imagine a situation when he is faced by Nagato, who has the Rinnegan. Madara is not an idiot to underestimate someone with SoSP's dodjutsu, which is legendary.

It is a ninjutsu, but it is up to you to prove Preta Path *has no limits* and can absorb all ninjutsu no matter how powerfull they are. You can repeat that PS is a ninjutsu, and i know it is a ninjutsu, but i'll continue to wait for proofs from you that Preta Path *has no limits at all.*

Yeah, so what? Maybe thats how Preta Path works - absorbs some ninjutsu as powerfull as Rasen Shuriken that much quickly?

Nagato cant absorb ninjutsu with the same speed as Madara and he told about Rasen Shuriken that it was a little bit too much. There was no sense for him to lie. 

Well, itis up to you to bring scans to prove your statements are right. I'll continue to wait for them.

That was before PS was introduced, or after? ANd who stated that? Hiruzen was stated by Iruka to be the strongest Hokage, for example. But Hashirama would have killed Hiruzen easily if they fought.

It is obvious that Pains Preta Path <<<<<<<<<< Nagato. So what?



> Time is the only thing that holds significance in your argument because why can't he absorb all of PS's chakra what's going to happen overload?
> Prove that it wasn't stated that preta absorbs and voids all ninjutsu
> Even if you think they will go right through them which is unlikely it is brainless to think it can go through all the dogs and then reach Nagato and still hinder him. PS can't put down the dogs so they continue to tank it.
> Read Naruto vs Pain again.
> ...



Yeah - overload. Until you proved otherwise, until there is anything to prove Preta Path has no limitations, until you proved Nagato's body can sustain such a level of chakra inside his body.

Well, man, it is up to you to prove Preta Path has no limitations. Nagato has no feats to suggest he can absorb any ninjutsu no matter how powerfull the ninjutsu is.

And if it was stated *by manga character* that Nagato can absorb any ninjutsu with his Preta Path, than i dont care about that statement. 

It is brainless to think it cant go through 3 of those dogs, when they dont have durability feats enough to say that they can withstand PS's slashes and they could be taken out with Amaterasu. If it goes right through Cerberus, it cuts Nagato obviously.

And Deidara had C0. Was it as powerfull as Bijuu Dama? No, it wasnt, although it was big. His C0 couldnt even kill Manda. The same is here. Pain couldnt kill people with his most powerfull ST which were under Katsuya's protection. It is up to you to prove Nagato's ST can be as powerfull as Kurama's Bijuu Dama.

My game is feats, with logic and common sense. Thats not my game you are trying to use. You are trying to troll me, because anyone will understand that if PS can easily cut mountains and Hashirama's wooden constructs, than it can cut a human easily. Thats not even debatable and i wont provide any evidence - its a common sense. Its not the same as situation with Preta Path. Also, PS slashes were given a limit already. Re-read the manga.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 15, 2015)

> Preta absorbs incomplete Susanoo its chakra is nowhere close to PS stop being nonsensical.
> Ama burns things down slashes do not. What type of garbage is this?
> It was said that PS's power rivals Tailed beasts not it's chakra.
> An emaciated Nagato channeled chakra through 6 of his paths, was far away from the paths, was able to use CST and level Konaha, used a boss sized ST that soloed 3 toads, used ST several other times, captured naruto if not for Hinata, used CT and stated he could have made it bigger then to top it off he revived everyone he killed. Like i said you can't say either has greater chakra.
> ...



Well, it is up to you to prove Nagato's Preta Path is powerfull enough to absorb Madara's imperfect Susanoo. 
Amaterasu cant destroy mountains in a moment, like PS's slashes can. 
It is logical that if PS can rival Tailed Beast, than it is a tailed beast level chakra construct. Thats logical. If it didnt have tailed beast level chakra, it wont be able to compete with tailed beasts. And Madara himself has tailed beast level chakra. His chakra reserves are bigger than Nagato's.
So what? Madara fought for the whole day and used chakra construct that can sh*t on everything Nagato has, including CT. 50% Kurama in its 8 Tails form got out from his CT without much of a problem. Madara's chakra feats are superior to those of Nagato. So yeah - he has bigger chakra reserves. And on top of that, he is Indra's reincarnation. Therefore, he has Indra's chakra.
Yeah, exactly - it applies everywhere. Thats why Nagato will pull Madara *AND* Susanoo at the same time. 
Madara has much faster movement speed and reaction speed. He is at least tier above Nagato in that department. Nagato wont react to Madara and wont use any of his paths before Madara breaks his skull in CQC.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> I will repeat myself: Madara wins this.
> 
> What I wanted you to see is that Nagato has chances too.
> 
> ...



 Because his best feat is absorbing V2 Bee who's chakra output doesn't compare to a Bijuu.



> They have NO KNOWLEDGE about each other. This means that Madara doesn't know about Rinnegan in this fight, right?



 That doesn't make sense as Nagato has his eyes, so thus he should have knowledge on it.



> Without any Knowledge, I don't see Madara going on rampage since the start.. If he didn't do that against the 5 KAGES.



 Not against a Rinnegan user.




> Prove to me, then, why bijuu dama >> CHOU shinra tensei focused ?



 Nagato's most powerful focused Shinra Tensei doesn't have feats of destroying a mountain while a Bijuudama from 100% Kurama does as BM Naruto's Bijuudama rivals 5 Bijuudamas and guess what? Madara's inferior PS tanked a Bijuudama.

 Chou Shinra Tensei's best feat is destroying a village which is impressive, but the fact that the buildings weren't completely destroyed suggests it's not as powerful as Kurama's Bijuudama which can at least rival 5 Bijuudamas that completely obliterated a mountain each.



> If the Chou Shinra Tensei used on Konoha (that wasn't focused and was used by a PATH), did all that damage on Konoha, imagine all the gravity IN ONE POINT.



 Nothing suggests he could. His most focused Shinra Tensei from Nagato who's stronger than Pain didn't even completely destroy the area that did get blasted as the trees around him were still intact. Actually, an FRS, Hachibi's Bijuudama, and Yasaka Magatama which don't have output of 100% Kurama's Bijuudama considering the feats I explained earlier and the fact that the explosion was bigger compared to those 3 attacks, had more impressive feats than what the Shinra Tensei from Nagato displayed.

 But no, Nagato has no feats of focusing all that chakra into one point. His more powerful Shinra Tensei's only covered a wide radius, not one spot that focused the entire blast.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Why can't Nagato absorve a entire Bijuu? lol
> 
> We saw on the manga that when u absorve chakra u revitalize ur own body. Nagato did it himself when absorved the version 2 from Bee.
> 
> If Nagato were going to absorve a entire Bijuu (just like Kisame absorved Hachibi's chakra like 3,4 times, tentacles included) he just needs to transform the chakra in Physical Energy.



I believe Naruto vs Pain showed that the Bijuu have flesh too. Maybe they're made of a mix of chakra and natural energy considering the Juubi.



> And answering u... Chou Shinra Tensei focused >>>>>> Bijuu Dama.



Tbh, Preta Path or any Shinra Tensei is > Bijuu Dama. It is just people here have been funny about the fact that since the Rinnegan, there can be powers which lack a limit they're used to.

For instance it took Hashirama inventing a new jutsu to beat Preta Path. Basically only Asura's transmigrates have been able to successfully counter the jutsu.



> Even Shurado strongest attack could damage the Susano'o, if it was spammed like 10 times.



Plausible only because we've not seen a real Rinnegan use Demon Path; not seen Nagato alive using it. Nor have we seen a real Rinnegan user use it, Madara.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 15, 2015)

> Tbh, Preta Path or any Shinra Tensei is > Bijuu Dama. It is just people here have been funny about the fact that since the Rinnegan, there can be powers which lack a limit they're used to.
> 
> For instance it took Hashirama inventing a new jutsu to beat Preta Path. Basically only Asura's transmigrates have been able to successfully counter the jutsu.



Nagato's Preta Path <<<<<< Bijuu Dama. His ST is also <<<<<<< Bijuu Dama. Expecially if its from Kurama, for example. 

And Hashirama just used Wood Dragon. He invented that technique during his lifetime.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Nagato's Preta Path <<<<<< Bijuu Dama. His ST is also <<<<<<< Bijuu Dama. Expecially if its from Kurama, for example.



That makes absolutely no sense. Unless you can prove to me that Bijuu Dama, even Kurama's, isn't made of chakra, you're wrong.



> And Hashirama just used Wood Dragon. He invented that technique during his lifetime.



That wood dragon was different from the other ones Hashirama used. It was used specifically to counter Preta Path.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 15, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That makes absolutely no sense. *Unless you can prove to me that Bijuu Dama, even Kurama's, isn't made of chakra, you're wrong.*
> 
> 
> 
> That wood dragon was different from the other ones Hashirama used. It was used specifically to counter Preta Path.



lol he can't prove anything because per cannon the tailed beast are just chakra entities. If that is so and it is what else would a Bjuu Dama be??


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## StarWanderer (Feb 15, 2015)

> That makes absolutely no sense. Unless you can prove to me that Bijuu Dama, even Kurama's, isn't made of chakra, you're wrong.



Unless you can prove that Nagato's Preta Path has no limits and is powerfull enough to absorb Kurama's Bijuu Dama, you're wrong. 



> That wood dragon was different from the other ones Hashirama used. It was used specifically to counter Preta Path.



No, it wasnt. Thats exactly how Wood Dragon works. It could absorb chakra from Kurama when Madara, an inferior mokuton user, used it. 

Hashirama could counter Madara's Preta Path with Wood Dragons own chakra absorbtion.

And the same dragon couldnt absorb Kurama's Bijuu Dama and got destroyed.

So Nagato wont be able to absorb Kurama's Bijuu Dama with his Preta Path.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> lol he can't prove anything because per cannon the tailed beast are just chakra entities. If that is so and it is what else would a Bjuu Dama be??



Apparently it is something else seeing as a jutsu which nullifies chakra is something that can be overcome by the Bijuu Dama.



StarWanderer said:


> Unless you can prove that Nagato's Preta Path has no limits and is powerfull enough to absorb Kurama's Bijuu Dama, you're wrong.



Manga and databook has stated that the Preta Path absorbs chakra, no exceptions. No limit has ever been put on the jutsu like Kisame's Samehada.

I've got facts, you've got some bizzare speculation. Show me that Kurama's Bijuu Dama is so special that it can get past a jutsu which nullifies Ninjutsu. While you're at it, show it it is so special that it gets past a jutsu which can repel all.



> No, it wasnt. Thats exactly how Wood Dragon works. It could absorb chakra from Kurama when Madara, an inferior mokuton user, used it.
> 
> And the same dragon couldnt absorb Kurama's Bijuu Dama and got destroyed.



The second wood dragon which had a completely different appearance. Don't go by the anime. They were different wood dragon jutsu.



> So Nagato wont be able to absorb Kurama's Bijuu Dama with his Preta Path.



Of course he'll be able to absorb it. Kurama's Bijuu Dama is chakra. The wood dragon needs physical contact prior any absorption. Preta Path just needs a jutsu to touch its barrier or the user to absorb. 
The second wood dragon Hashirama used is the same, except it has the function to absorb Preta Path's barrier.

You have no real stance. Show me that the manga and the databooks are wrong about the Preta Path. That's what you need to do to convince me that the Bijuu Dama isn't absorbent. There's a reason all the Bijuu didn't spam Bijuu Dama towards Madara.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> lol he can't prove anything because per cannon the tailed beast are just chakra entities. If that is so and it is what else would a Bjuu Dama be??



 Wood Dragon is at least on Madara's Preta Path's level in terms of chakra absorption considering it negated Madara's ability to absorb ninjutsu. Madara's ability to use the Rinnegan surpasses Nagato's considering they are his eyes. 

 Wood Dragon also got blown through by Kurama's Bijuudama and as stated, Wood Dragon is at least on par with Madara's Preta Path chakra absorption which means Preta Path from a weaker Rinnegan user isn't stopping a Bijuudama.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Wood Dragon is at least on Madara's Preta Path's level in terms of chakra absorption considering it negated Madara's ability to absorb ninjutsu. Madara's ability to use the Rinnegan surpasses Nagato's considering they are his eyes.
> 
> Wood Dragon also got blown through by Kurama's Bijuudama and as stated, Wood Dragon is at least on par with Madara's Preta Path chakra absorption which means Preta Path from a weaker Rinnegan user isn't stopping a Bijuudama.



The wood dragon needs to touch its target prior absorbing chakra. It absorbs right after it touches the target. It isn't on Preta Path's level because Preta Path can do that, and also it just needs to touch the jutsu itself (unlike the dragon) to absorb chakra.

The other wood dragon works the same, except it can counter Preta Path's barrier.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Well, it is up to you to prove Nagato's Preta Path is powerfull enough to absorb Madara's imperfect Susanoo.
> Amaterasu cant destroy mountains in a moment, like PS's slashes can.
> It is logical that if PS can rival Tailed Beast, than it is a tailed beast level chakra construct. Thats logical. If it didnt have tailed beast level chakra, it wont be able to compete with tailed beasts. And Madara himself has tailed beast level chakra. His chakra reserves are bigger than Nagato's.
> So what? Madara fought for the whole day and used chakra construct that can sh*t on everything Nagato has, including CT. 50% Kurama in its 8 Tails form got out from his CT without much of a problem. Madara's chakra feats are superior to those of Nagato. So yeah - he has bigger chakra reserves. And on top of that, he is Indra's reincarnation. Therefore, he has Indra's chakra.
> ...


Well it has been stated that the Preta path absorbs and voids all ninjtsu and chakra. Bjuudama is chakra correct so it absorbs it. a limit was never placed on it before. All you say is prove this prove that. Now i ask you prove that Preta has limits and can't absorb PS. Not only has it been stated to absorb all Ninjutsu but i don't believe you can even tell a limit it has on it? 

So let me here it? Wheres the proof. At least whatr im defending has been stated numerous times, your just making a make believe story as foundation to your claim. If you can't prove your argument don't ask constantly ask others to show proof of everything that has been stated in Manga Anime and Databooks because that's straight trash on your part..

Yes it does apply everywhere put as we saw Nagato has a way around it as he stopped the movement of the wood while he pulled out the nail. He can manipulate gravity so i would assume keeping things in place won't be out of his abilities. On top of that it was shown.

You don't even know is Madara fought Hashi with his PS activated for the whole day which he most likely didn't so don't assume that he did. Their chakra levels have never been actually stated just referenced to being powerful and plentiful. 

Do you not understand that if Madara comes at Nagato with no Susanoo activated the match is over. Nagato doesn't have to move to activate ST and it has no warnings. Nagato is a sensor so he can see the the build up of chakra just in case Madara wants to try some slick shit.  on top of that Madara isn't seeing anything if Nagato is in his chameleon. If he decides to reappear and use a Boss size ST Madara is done for.

Oh and if you think Madara is blitzing Nagato before he lands an ST in you gotta lay off the drugs.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

> The wood dragon needs to touch its target prior absorbing chakra. It absorbs right after it touches the target. It isn't on Preta Path's level because Preta Path can do that, and also it just needs to touch the jutsu itself (unlike the dragon) to absorb chakra.
> 
> The other wood dragon works the same, except it can counter Preta Path's barrier.



As shown, it is on Madara's Preta Path level, because Hashirama could counter Madara's Preta Path with it. Dragon couldnt absorb Bijuu Dama after touching it. 

Also, i have never seen the difference between those dragons. Show me the scan, please.

Also, i want you to prove that Nagato can absorb any chakra *no matter how powerfull it is*. Nagato can absorb chakra, but *he has no feats at all to suggest he can absorb something as powerfull as Bijuu Dama*.



> Well it has been stated that the Preta path absorbs and voids all ninjtsu and chakra. Bjuudama is chakra correct so it absorbs it. a limit was never placed on it before. All you say is prove this prove that. Now i ask you prove that Preta has limits and can't absorb PS. Not only has it been stated to absorb all Ninjutsu but i don't believe you can even tell a limit it has on it?



All ninjutsu and chakra no matter how powerfull it is? No, there is no such a statement. And he has no feats to suggest he can absorb Perfect Susanoo. He cant even absorb something as Bijuu Dama, which Wood Dragon, capable of countering Madara's Preta Path, couldnt absorb. Also, SM FRS was a little bit too much for Madara.

So no, there is no way Nagato absorbs PS. He has no feats to suggest he can absorb even Madara's imperfect Susanoo, lol. He has never shown limitless absorbtion - his absorbtion isnt limitless. Its up to you to prove by feats Nagato can absorb PS, or Bijuu Dama, or Madara's imperfect Susanoo. You cant prove Nagato can do that - Nagato cant do that. Its that simple.

Or maybe Nagato can absorb Kaguya's ninjutsu attacks? LOL.

Also, bring here those statements you are writing about, please. I want to look at them.



> So let me here it? Wheres the proof. At least whatr im defending has been stated numerous times, your just making a make believe story as foundation to your claim. If you can't prove your argument don't ask constantly ask others to show proof of everything that has been stated in Manga Anime and Databooks because that's straight trash on your part..



Yeah yeah - bring here those statements. Nagato can absorb any chakra no matter how powerfull the chakra is? There is no such a statement. You cant prove Nagato's Preta Path is limitless - it is not limitless. Thats it. Because, first of all, you started to write about his Preta Paths absorbtion to be that powerfull. Second, *i wont believe Nagato can absorb Perfect Susanoo without any evidence that he can*. Bring here those evidences and then i'll believe ya. Because i have never seen any statement in manga or Databooks that Nagato's Preta Path has no limits.



> Yes it does apply everywhere put as we saw Nagato has a way around it as he stopped the movement of the wood while he pulled out the nail. He can manipulate gravity so i would assume keeping things in place won't be out of his abilities. On top of that it was shown.



Did wood cover nail completely? No. He could see nail under wood?

Anyway, i'll wait for scan.



> You don't even know is Madara fought Hashi with his PS activated for the whole day which he most likely didn't so don't assume that he did. Their chakra levels have never been actually stated just referenced to being powerful and plentiful.



Madara can fight for the whole day - he has monstrous chakra levels, because he had to use ninjutsu against Hashirama, who, even in the end of their last fight, used a mokuton clone - a ninjutsu.

Also, Madara could use multiple PS's blades in his fight with Hashirama without any sign of exhaustion.

So yeah - Madara can use it for a long time. And only 1 slash is needed to kill Nagato. Nagato has no feats to suggest he can deflect PS's shockwave even with his most powerfull ST. And he cant absorb it, since it is not a ninjutsu. 



> Do you not understand that if Madara comes at Nagato with no Susanoo activated the match is over. Nagato doesn't have to move to activate ST and it has no warnings. Nagato is a sensor so he can see the the build up of chakra just in case Madara wants to try some slick shit. on top of that Madara isn't seeing anything if Nagato is in his chameleon. If he decides to reappear and use a Boss size ST Madara is done for.



If Madara is in a very close distance, he has a chance to kill Nagato before Nagato uses any technique, because Madara is much faster. He has much faster movement speed and reaction speed. And sensing =/= precognition.

Chameleon will be countered by PS's slashes in all directions. And his most powerfull ST wont do anything even to his imperfect Susanoo.



> Oh and if you think Madara is blitzing Nagato before he lands an ST in you gotta lay off the drugs.



One PS's slash - Nagato gets obliterated. Because Nagato wont be able to do anything about it.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Well it has been stated that the Preta path absorbs and voids all ninjtsu and chakra. Bjuudama is chakra correct so it absorbs it. a limit was never placed on it before. All you say is prove this prove that. Now i ask you prove that Preta has limits and can't absorb PS. Not only has it been stated to absorb all Ninjutsu but i don't believe you can even tell a limit it has on it?



 Is this why Preta Path was latching onto Jiraiya's Oodama Rasengan that actually pushed him back while absorbing it?

 (1)

 You can see he's overwhelmed and actually had to physically touch it.

 (1)

 The absorption process took a while as Jiraiya managed to realize that his Rasengan was being absorbed while still be relatively big.

 It clearly has a limit.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

> Is this why Preta Path was latching onto Jiraiya's Oodama Rasengan that actually pushed him back while absorbing it?
> 
> (1)
> 
> ...



Imagine if it was full Kurama's Bijuu Dama...


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 16, 2015)

For a Bijuu Dama, he just need to use Shinra Tensei... A normal one. That's going to change the direction of it, just like Hashirama did with Gojuu Ranshomon.

And guys, I was searching on the databook, and it is said that Gakido's Jutsu can absorve ALL NINJUTSUS with NO LIMIT of chakra.

Now I don't see any problem on absorving the Perfect Susano'o. And no, the perfect Susano'o has no Senjutsu because Madara FMS doesn't have Senjutsu Chakra. 

Also, I forgot that Nagato has Kage Bunshin. I can show the manga page after getting the 10 posts, but now I can't post .-.

But he doesn't need the Kage Bunshin. While absorving, he just need to repel and defend himself from Perfect Susano'o Ataques EASILY with Shinra Tensei. We saw him absorving the lvl 2 Bee in 3,4 seconds, and not only that. Susano'o swords are made of CHAKRA, he can't use it if he is getting absorved...

BUT, If Nagato doesn't absorve Madara Susano'o, he loses easily. But you are underestimating Nagato. Madara CHOSE HIM to carry the Rinnegan because he HAD POTENCIAL. Why didn't he choose Obito? 

Rinnegan it's next level. This is NAGATO PRIME. He is not someone with 40,5 KG, he is someone that destroyed TWO PERFECT JINCHUURIKIS and Itachi almost went too. If it was Nagato (Kill intention), instead of Kabuto, they were done for.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> For a Bijuu Dama, he just need to use Shinra Tensei... A normal one. That's going to change the direction of it, just like Hashirama did with Gojuu Ranshomon.



 (1)

 It doesn't matter when that Bijuudama will cover a large radius that will blow Nagato into smithereens. 



> And guys, I was searching on the databook, and it is said that Gakido's Jutsu can absorve ALL NINJUTSUS with NO LIMIT of chakra.



 Already disproved. 



> Now I don't see any problem on absorving the Perfect Susano'o. And no, the perfect Susano'o has no Senjutsu because Madara FMS doesn't have Senjutsu Chakra.



 Preta Path had to touch Jiraiya's Oodama Rasengan in order to absorb such a large amount of chakra. Even Preta Path was touching the oil which is weaker in terms of chakra which is why Jiraiya assumed he ate it. So if Nagato has to touch PS's Sword to absorb, then he gets pierced like he was here by an inferior MS user:

 (1) 



> Also, I forgot that Nagato has Kage Bunshin. I can show the manga page after getting the 10 posts, but now I can't post .-.



 Doesn't matter as PS kills him the instant he uses Kage Bushin. 



> But he doesn't need the Kage Bunshin. While absorving, he just need to repel and defend himself from Perfect Susano'o Ataques EASILY with Shinra Tensei. We saw him absorving the lvl 2 Bee in 3,4 seconds, and not only that. Susano'o swords are made of CHAKRA, he can't use it if he is getting absorved...



 Which he can't 



> BUT, If Nagato doesn't absorve Madara Susano'o, he loses easily. But you are underestimating Nagato. Madara CHOSE HIM to carry the Rinnegan because he HAD POTENCIAL. Why didn't he choose Obito?



 Irrelevant. 



> Rinnegan it's next level. This is NAGATO PRIME. He is not someone with 40,5 KG, he is someone that destroyed TWO PERFECT JINCHUURIKIS and Itachi almost went too. If it was Nagato (Kill intention), instead of Kabuto, they were done for.



 Except those Two Perfect Jinchuuriki don't compare to Perfect Susanoo which easily trumps 100% Kurama.

 Checkmate.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Feb 16, 2015)

> Already disproved.



Tell me more about that? Going against Kishimoto own words?



> Preta Path had to touch Jiraiya's Oodama Rasengan in order to absorb such a large amount of chakra. Even Preta Path was touching the oil which is weaker in terms of chakra which is why Jiraiya assumed he ate it. So if Nagato has to touch PS's Sword to absorb, then he gets pierced like he was here by an inferior MS user:



Nop.

He absorbs Susano'o, and because of that, the sword is going to be absorved too. LOGIC DUDE, LOGIC 

It's like Yata and Totsuka. If Susano'o isn't up, u can't use it.

The same goes for the Perfect Susano'o swords. You can't use them if ur susano'o it's absorved 

SURE 

But that was Kabuto controlling him, and he had no mobility to dodge that. But there, Nagato it's on PRIME. 
PRIME
PRIME
PRIME
PRIME

He has mobility 



> Doesn't matter as PS kills him the instant he uses Kage Bushin.



Sure, because Nagato is Konohamaru.



> Except those Two Perfect Jinchuuriki don't compare to Perfect Susanoo which easily trumps 100% Kurama.
> 
> Checkmate.



That doesn't change the fact that Nagato can beat Madara.

Checkmate.

And changed my mind. I'm starting to see even more chances for Nagato


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Tell me more about that? Going against Kishimoto own words?



 Feats >>> Statements.

 That's why 3rd Hokage isn't the strongest of the Hokages. 

 Check. 





> Nop.
> 
> He absorbs Susano'o, and because of that, the sword is going to be absorved too. LOGIC DUDE, LOGIC



 Logic dictates that everything has a limit.

 Check. 



> It's like Yata and Totsuka. If Susano'o isn't up, u can't use it.
> 
> The same goes for the Perfect Susano'o swords. You can't use them if ur susano'o it's absorved
> 
> ...



 Completely irrelevant to the point I made as you completely ignored the evidence I presented.

 Check. 





> Sure, because Nagato is Konohamaru.



 He is. That's why one of his Paths got hammered by Konohamaru's Rasengan.

 Check. 





> That doesn't change the fact that Nagato can beat Madara.



 Yet all your points have been refuted.

 Checkmate, I win.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

> For a Bijuu Dama, he just need to use Shinra Tensei... A normal one. That's going to change the direction of it, just like Hashirama did with Gojuu Ranshomon.



Normal ST? Kurama's Bijuu Dama will continue to go right at Nagato. He needs to use his most powerfull ST to have any chance. But i highly doubt he can change Bijuu Dama's trajectory, which could be changed only by 5 Rashomons. And Kurama's Bijuu Dama could go right through Wood Dragon with no problem at all.



> And guys, I was searching on the databook, and it is said that Gakido's Jutsu can absorve ALL NINJUTSUS with NO LIMIT of chakra.



I'll believe it when i see it. So bring it here.



> Now I don't see any problem on absorving the Perfect Susano'o. And no, the perfect Susano'o has no Senjutsu because Madara FMS doesn't have Senjutsu Chakra.



Edo Madara's Preta Path was countered by Wood Dragon, which couldnt absorb Kurama's Bijuu Dama. And SM FRS was *a little bit too much* for Edo Madara.

Nagato cant absorb PS. Nagato doesnt have any feats to suggest he can. 



> Also, I forgot that Nagato has Kage Bunshin. I can show the manga page after getting the 10 posts, but now I can't post .-.



LOL, as if they are problem for Madara. Kage Bunshin usage will make Nagato weaker, since he needs to split his chakra in order to make Kage Bunshins. In this fight, it will be a suicide. And i doubt Nagato will be able to use Kage Bunshins, because Madara wont give him a chance to do so pressuring him. It may not look in Madara's character to do so. But i dont think he is stupid enough to underestimate someone with SoSP's dodjutsu.



> But he doesn't need the Kage Bunshin. While absorving, he just need to repel and defend himself from Perfect Susano'o Ataques EASILY with Shinra Tensei. We saw him absorving the lvl 2 Bee in 3,4 seconds, and not only that. Susano'o swords are made of CHAKRA, he can't use it if he is getting absorved...



ST has no feats to suggest it can deflect PS's blades, or its shockwaves, which can cut mountains easily. PS's shockwave will go right through ST and obliterate Nagato. One PS's shockwave - Nagato dies.

And Nagato cant absorb PS, because its too powerfull chakra for Nagato to absorb. 

Out of very powerfull chakra. Many times more powerfull than anything Nagato absorbed, or *used*. V2 Bee is no where near as powerfull as PS, and it doesnt have even as much chakra as Madara's imperfect Susanoo.



> BUT, If Nagato doesn't absorve Madara Susano'o, he loses easily. But you are underestimating Nagato. Madara CHOSE HIM to carry the Rinnegan because he HAD POTENCIAL. Why didn't he choose Obito?



Nobody underestimates Nagato. He is just not powerfull enough to beat Madara. And Madara chose him due to Nagato's chakra reserves. He is an Uzumaki, after all.

And lol, he didnt know Obito when he gave his Rinnegan to Nagato.



> Rinnegan it's next level. This is NAGATO PRIME. He is not someone with 40,5 KG, he is someone that destroyed TWO PERFECT JINCHUURIKIS and Itachi almost went too. If it was Nagato (Kill intention), instead of Kabuto, they were done for.



Almost went? I thought Itachi easily countered anything Nagato used there, although there were Naruto and Bee too. Alive Prime Nagato may take out Edo Itachi, but he cant beat KCM Naruto, Bee and Edo Itachi at the same time.

EMS Madara beats Nagato.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Feb 16, 2015)

I don't have 10 posts, so I can't link here.

Answering the super star above, because the other one is playing chess:

Star, Shinra tensei repels everything, do not matter the MASS. A normal one could change the Bijuu Dama trajetory - doing the same that Kyuubi did against the other 5 Bijuus -.

About Gakido, I can send u the databook. Also, Daikoudan no Jutsu and the Wood Dragon counters the Gakido barrier, since the barrier it's chakra himself.

That's why Madara didn't absorve it. Because, the barrier himself was being drained.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> I don't have 10 posts, so I can't link here.
> 
> Answering the super star above, because the other one is playing chess:



 Concession Accepted.



> Star, Shinra tensei repels everything, do not matter the MASS. A normal one could change the Bijuu Dama trajetory - doing the same that Kyuubi did against the other 5 Bijuus -.



 Is this why Deva Path failed to repel KN6 Naruto and he himself got repelled instead? 

 Check. 



> About Gakido, I can send u the databook. Also, Daikoudan no Jutsu and the Wood Dragon counters the Gakido barrier, since the barrier it's chakra himself.



 Same as any other ninjutsu. 



> That's why Madara didn't absorve it. Because, the barrier himself was being drained.



 Hence if Wood Dragon can counter Preta Path's chakra absorption, he should be able to absorb a Bijuudama which did not happen. 

 Checkmate.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> As shown, it is on Madara's Preta Path level, because Hashirama could counter Madara's Preta Path with it. Dragon couldnt absorb Bijuu Dama after touching it.
> 
> Also, i have never seen the difference between those dragons. Show me the scan, please.
> 
> ...


The jutsu was used to specifically stop Preta's ability in top of that it hit before Madara used Preta.

Check the third databook. And i guess Nagato needs to absorb every ninjutsu in Naruto for him to be deemed able to absorb it. Not even the main character Naruto gets that much attention. So show me when a limit was ever put on it, but you can't.

You just finished agreeing with me that the laws of gravity apply eveywhere so If Nagato can manipulate gravity im sure he would be able to do so in PS because of course like you agreed gravity applies everywhere.

How can you calc how much chakra he wasted on PS swinging multiple swords? i would think if he has enough chakra to create the construct he would be able to sustain it for more than multiple swings. Nagato was weakened channeling power to 6 paths able to exert enough force to expunge Konaha from a path that was far away from him, capture Naruto (if not for Hinata) Fight 6 tailed Naruto, Use ST several more times even an ST that soloed the 3 toads Use CT and said he could have made it bigger. Then to top it all off he revives all the people he killed, All in an emaciated state. So if a weakened Nagato can do that a Prime Nagato can do so much more.

Obviously it's not ninjutsu. Nagato can just have multiple Cerberuses stand in front of him and tank the hit they won't be put down by it.

Madara is definitely not blitzing Nagato before he uses an ST. You referred to being at a close distance. If that's the case Nagato doesn't even have to wait for Madara to speed over to him he can just Boss size ST him and he's outta here. if your making him out to be that fast he should have blitzed Naruto when he was fighting the 5 kage. 
PS isn't coming out before or the same time Nagato's chameleon come. When he hides in the chameleon you really think Madara would even bring out PS his last resort move. And when was he known to spam slashes in all directions or better yet, spam slashes at all? If not against hashi and even then we didn't see the full battle so that's still debatable.
And not necessarily, because if you sense the build up of chakra you can potentially act before the move, so it can be used like that.

No, Madara won't be able to see Nagato in his chameleon so when ever he chooses to reappear if he even chooses to reappear a boss sized ST gets him the hell out of here without Madara knowing what hit him


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> The jutsu was used to specifically stop Preta's ability in top of that it hit before Madara used Preta.



 Because it can absorb ninjutsu. Hashirama even specifically stated "* ninjutsu *".

 Check. 



> You just finished agreeing with me that the laws of gravity apply eveywhere so If Nagato can manipulate gravity im sure he would be able to do so in PS because of course like you agreed gravity applies everywhere.



 Is this why he failed to pull Kakashi until Kakashi's grip slipped as shown here:

 (1)

 Check. 



> Nagato was weakened channeling power to 6 paths able to exert enough force to expunge Konaha from a path that was far away from him, capture Naruto (if not for Hinata) Fight 6 tailed Naruto, Use ST several more times even an ST that soloed the 3 toads Use CT and said he could have made it bigger. Then to top it all off he revives all the people he killed, All in an emaciated state. So if a weakened Nagato can do that a Prime Nagato can do so much more.



 That's undeniably true, Nagato does have high chakra reserves due to being an Uzamaki though to be fair, the Demonic Statue is constantly giving Nagato chakra to use.

 Madara can also fight for a whole day against Hashirama and his whole clan.



> Obviously it's not ninjutsu. Nagato can just have multiple Cerberuses stand in front of him and tank the hit they won't be put down by it.



 Not like he's capable of summoning multiple Cerberuses in the first place, esp. against a top-tier ninja like Madara.

 Check. 



> Madara is definitely not blitzing Nagato before he uses an ST. You referred to being at a close distance. If that's the case Nagato doesn't even have to wait for Madara to speed over to him he can just Boss size ST him and he's outta here. if your making him out to be that fast he should have blitzed Naruto when he was fighting the 5 kage.



 Alive Madara is much faster than Edo Madara.

 No, Madara is because he could outright blitz SM Naruto and Sai and if you paid close attention, he pushed Sai back while SM Naruto was still well into the air.

 Boss Size ST couldn't kill Summons. Hell, his Chou Shinra Tensei couldn't blow Katsuyu to smithereens as well as the buildings in the village.

 Check. 




> PS isn't coming out before or the same time Nagato's chameleon come. When he hides in the chameleon you really think Madara would even bring out PS his last resort move. And when was he known to spam slashes in all directions or better yet, spam slashes at all? If not against hashi and even then we didn't see the full battle so that's still debatable.
> And not necessarily, because if you sense the build up of chakra you can potentially act before the move, so it can be used like that.



 Nagato's a Rinnegan user and a superior sensor to Jiraiya. Even Ma/Pa managed to sense the Chameleon and easily dispose of it. Imperfect Susanoo should have no problem

 He spammed multiple slashes against Hashirama.

 Though it is ironic that you're claiming we never saw the whole battle as a means to justify your argument. 

 Is this why Nagato got pierced by Totsuka Blade, hence his surprised reaction.

 Check. 



> No, Madara won't be able to see Nagato in his chameleon so when ever he chooses to reappear if he even chooses to reappear a boss sized ST gets him the hell out of here without Madara knowing what hit him




 Madara's a superior sensor to Jiraiya and Nagato, hence why he could instantly recognize Hashirama's chakra while Nagato couldn't recognize Jiraiya's chakra when he infiltrated his "base".

 Check. 


Even though Madara's Inferior PS can outright tank 100% Kurama's Bijuudama? 

 Check. 


 Chou Shinra Tensei couldn't even destroy Katsuyu or even blow any of the buildings in the village to smithereens.

  Check. 


Which means Madara's Inferior PS easily tanks Chou Shinra Tensei!

 Checkmate, you lose.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 16, 2015)

Nagato win this.

Gravity can't be stopped by objects. If you have a wall and you have a magnet in both sides, they will atrack themselfs even with that object on the middle.

The difference here is that Susano'o isn?t a object, IS CHAKRA. CHAKRA. And we saw Gaara catching him by his feets, and putting him out of the Susano'o, didn't we ? 

Banshou Ten'in is going to pull Madara out of Susano'o, and then, something like Shurado can finish him. 

And for those who say that Chibaku Tensei didn't pull Itachi from his Susano'o, i will just explain this once:

Chibaku Tensei ATTRACTS EVERYTHING.
Banshou Ten'in ATTRACTS WHAT THE USER WANTS.

Proves?

Tendo used Banshou Ten'in on Kakashi and SHurado was on the front and didn't get caught on the gravity. Tendo pulled part of the montain to stop the 6tails Kyuubi. Nagato pulled Naruto and a Rock from the sea.

Actually, Nagato wins here pretty easily. I didn't even expected this 

That's why Madara wanted the Rinnegan so badly. Rinnegan powers are A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.

Nagato sensor >>> Madara.  He recognized Amaterasu and the Edo Tensei controller that was MILES AWAY. He even controlled EVERYONE from Amegakure, he knew who was the intruders just by recognizing their chakra. 

Madara only recognized Hashirama because two things: He had Hashirama cells and he fought Hashirama many times. 

Checkmate


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## Veracity (Feb 16, 2015)

If Madara is pulled from his Sussano, he can manifest Sussano and grab himself with Sussano. It's as simple as that.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 16, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> If Madara is pulled from his Sussano, he can manifest Sussano and grab himself with Sussano. It's as simple as that.



Like he had time to react.

If he could do that, why didn't he do against Gaara in that situation? He didn't know that he had Rinnegan, he wasn't going to risk himself like that if he could react.

Also, databook 4 says: "U MUST OBEY THE GRAVITY PULL"

IN any  case, he just needs to repel Susano'o too


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Like he had time to react.
> 
> If he could do that, why didn't he do against Gaara in that situation? He didn't know that he had Rinnegan, he wasn't going to risk himself like that if he could react.
> 
> ...



 If activating Susanoo is too slow, then how did he activate his PS to break through the Kage's jutsu right before being obliterated.

 While we're on the subject, Itachi also activated his V4 Susanoo faster than Sasuke's Kirin.

 Check.


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## Bonly (Feb 16, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Like he had time to react.



Naruto had enough time react to Nagato's BT and create a chakra arm to avoid a rock crashing into him. Why can't Madara react by forming Susanoo or having Susanoo to grab him?



> If he could do that, why didn't he do against Gaara in that situation?



Preta path? Preta path.



> He didn't know that he had Rinnegan, he wasn't going to risk himself like that if he could react.



What lol? Can you prove that Madara didn't know he had the Rinnegan for some weird reason? 



> IN any  case, he just needs to repel Susano'o too



Can you prove that Nagato can use both BT and ST at the same time?


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because it can absorb ninjutsu. Hashirama even specifically stated "* ninjutsu *".
> 
> Check.
> 
> ...


Yea but Preta wasn't activated when Wood Dragon was used.

He was only pulling Kakashi though, and it doesn't change the fact that gravity applies everywhere as Kakashi wwas still getting pulled so what's your point? If he decided to pull Kakashi and the rock he was holding on to, Kakashi would have been smoked out quicker. Even then he was still able to rip Kakashi's grip.

Exactly, there is no real way to see who has greater reserves unless miraculously you are some kind of prophet, which is highly doubtful after making such faulty points.

As if he never summoned a multi-headed Cerberus before, good try tho

Meanwhile he turned Konaha into a crater with rubble everywhere. Boss sized ST from Tendo soloed 3 huge toads, if you believe a Boss sized ST from Nagato isn't ending an unshielded Madara or completely immobilizing him at the very least then you gotta chill with the crack my dude.

Hashi was the only person he deemed worthy and the only person that made Madara's arrogance not get the better of him.

Didn't know Imperfect Susanoo can sense things.
Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto. Im sure Kabuto doesn't know how to use the full extent of Nagato's ability than Nagato him self, he didn't even know Nagato was a sensor.

i doubt Madara is a sensor. It's most likely because he has Hashi's cells in him. Sensing would have helped him with a lot of stuff.
Pain couldn't sense Jariya not Nagato don't compare them.

Oh so now Madara brings in PS that early into the match? PS isn't coming out the same time or before nagato places his summonings. Not unless you believe CST comes out at the start of the match resulting in like 3 second win.

A Deva Path's CST made Konaha a crater.

Your only argument is PS, meanwhile Madara doesn't even come close to bringing it out at the beginning yet Nagato can hide in his Chameleon with out Madara seeing him, and can Boss size ST him. PS-less Madara gets ended by Nagato. Imperfect Susanoo would be a joke to Nagato as he can absorb it relatively quick and it's not like it has a way to beat Nagato. So please tell me how Madara gets passed this?

Seeing as how you make points that are nothing but straight garbage and proceed to say checkmate at the end, im guessing Chess isn't your best talent.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 16, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Like he had time to react.
> 
> If he could do that, why didn't he do against Gaara in that situation? He didn't know that he had Rinnegan, he wasn't going to risk himself like that if he could react.
> 
> ...



Madara was reflexive enough to jump on Kurama's forehead and manifest perfect Sussano after the explosion of a kyuubidama in its epicenter. Hashirama and Madara are the only non  god tier ninja fast enough to mount defenses after the explosion of a BD. Lol @ him not having enough time to react to slow as BT, when Sage Naruto, KCM Naruto and Kakashi all could. 

He had Preta path against Gaara lol.

Repel Sussano ?


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Feb 16, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Naruto had enough time react to Nagato's BT and create a chakra arm to avoid a rock crashing into him. Why can't Madara react by forming Susanoo or having Susanoo to grab him?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well Madara did seem surprised after he activated the Rinnegan. He said "Kabuto what did you do to my body"

On top of that Nagato has huge summonings as a diversion especially several wild rinnegan having dogs. He pulls Madara and the summonings can go around Madara's general direction blocking him from reach.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Feb 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Is this why Preta Path was latching onto Jiraiya's Oodama Rasengan that actually pushed him back while absorbing it?
> 
> (1)
> 
> ...


The Preta absorbing barrier wasn't activated clearly, as you can see from the Panel. When it was activated it was voided.

Overwhelmed? It came at him so he put his hands to it. He didn't start the absorbing process yet, but when he did you can notice it was voided and absorbed quickly. So how does this prove he has a limit when he clearly absorbed it with no problems?

Just because it isn't instant doesn't mean it poses as a limit.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> The Preta absorbing barrier wasn't activated clearly, as you can see from the Panel. When it was activated it was voided.



 If that were the case, his arms would've been blown off.

 You could also notice that chakra was actually surrounding him, hence his chakra absorption was activated. There'd be no reason for that not to be the case considering Animal Path is watching him as well which means Preta Path clearly had plenty of time to react. There's also the fact that Jiraiya confirms their reactions were perfect.

 Check. 



> Overwhelmed? It came at him so he put his hands to it. He didn't start the absorbing process yet, but when he did you can notice it was voided and absorbed quickly. So how does this prove he has a limit when he clearly absorbed it with no problems?



 Actually, he had to have had the absorption process or his hands would've been blown off. That's common sense. I would Check  you, but this time I won't.

 No, Jiraiya couldn't even detect Preta Path's chakra absorption used on the oil, but could on the Rasengan. He was absorbing at a slow enough rate that Jiraiya easily noticed what was happening even while it was relatively big while he couldn't with the oil.



> Just because it isn't instant doesn't mean it poses as a limit.


 
 It actually does. Preta Path absorbed the oil quickly, but didn't against the Rasengan. It's common sense that the Rasengan had so much chakra condensed that he couldn't process it all as quickly as he could detect him absorbing his chakra when the Rasengan was still relatively large.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

> The jutsu was used to specifically stop Preta's ability in top of that it hit before Madara used Preta.
> 
> Check the third databook. And i guess Nagato needs to absorb every ninjutsu in Naruto for him to be deemed able to absorb it. Not even the main character Naruto gets that much attention. So show me when a limit was ever put on it, but you can't.



Actually, we dont know how it hit Madara, because it happened off-panel. But its a fact Madara's Preta Path was countered by Wood Dragon, which was used as it could be used before that (absorbing Tails chakra, for example). That already proves Preta Path has its limits, which makes your arguements moot. Furthermore, Wood Dragon is a *ninjutsu*. 

Also, Nagato has no feats to suggest he can absorb chakra no matter how powerfull it is. 

I am not the one who needs to check anything - it is you who must prove that Nagato can absorb any chakra no matter how powerfull it is. You sayd Nagato can absorb PS - prove it. Because, until this very moment, you have no proofs to back up your claims.

And lol - can absorb any ninjutsu? Why Madara, the one who awekened The Rinnegan, couldnt absorb Wood Dragon, a ninjutsu, with his Preta Path? 

And realy - that statement can be hyperbole. If there was a statement in Databook, like this: *"Preta Path is limitlessly strong and can absorb any chakra no matter how powerfull it is"*, than i'll believe you. But... any ninjutsu? Maybe that means he could absorb any ninjutsu from any shinobi of that Era?

Anyway, thats statement you have never brought here is moot now. 



> You just finished agreeing with me that the laws of gravity apply eveywhere so If Nagato can manipulate gravity im sure he would be able to do so in PS because of course like you agreed gravity applies everywhere.



The sheer force of his most powerfull ST is not enough to push back PS's shockwaves which can cut mountains 

People under Katsuya's protection withstood his most powerfull ST. PS's chockwave obliterates Nagato.

And he cant even push back PS with his ST. Full Kurama's Bijuu Dama couldnt. PS laughs at ST.



> How can you calc how much chakra he wasted on PS swinging multiple swords? i would think if he has enough chakra to create the construct he would be able to sustain it for more than multiple swings. Nagato was weakened channeling power to 6 paths able to exert enough force to expunge Konaha from a path that was far away from him, capture Naruto (if not for Hinata) Fight 6 tailed Naruto, Use ST several more times even an ST that soloed the 3 toads Use CT and said he could have made it bigger. Then to top it all off he revives all the people he killed, All in an emaciated state. So if a weakened Nagato can do that a Prime Nagato can do so much more.



In every anime/manga/comic book debate, we calculate characters power by their feats and canon statements. Its logical, it makes sense.

Madara could fight for the whole day, Nagato couldnt. Madara could use Bijuu level chakra construct for a long time period, Nagato couldnt. Madara does have Indra's chakra. Nagato doesnt.

6 Tailed Naruto would have been killed by Madara effortlessly. SM naruto gets blitzed by Madara even without PS effortlessly. And Toads are not even close to PS in terms of chakra. The same is with CT. And he died after reviving those people.

Madara still has superior chakra feats.



> Obviously it's not ninjutsu. Nagato can just have multiple Cerberuses stand in front of him and tank the hit they won't be put down by it.



Nagato doesnt have reaction speed to summon Cerberus before PS obliterates him. And even if he do, Cerberus doesnt have durability feats to suggest PS's shockwave cant go through Cerberus and kill Nagato.



> Madara is definitely not blitzing Nagato before he uses an ST. You referred to being at a close distance. If that's the case Nagato doesn't even have to wait for Madara to speed over to him he can just Boss size ST him and he's outta here. if your making him out to be that fast he should have blitzed Naruto when he was fighting the 5 kage.
> PS isn't coming out before or the same time Nagato's chameleon come. When he hides in the chameleon you really think Madara would even bring out PS his last resort move. And when was he known to spam slashes in all directions or better yet, spam slashes at all? If not against hashi and even then we didn't see the full battle so that's still debatable.
> And not necessarily, because if you sense the build up of chakra you can potentially act before the move, so it can be used like that.



Nagato's best speed feat is almost killing KCM Naruto, who was not as good as when he fought Raikage Ei because his chakra was splited multiple times since he made lots of Kage Bunshins with KCM.

Edo Madara blcoked V2 Ei's punch point blank. Outpased SM Naruto and Sai at the same time. Reacted to Naruto's SM FRS effortlessly. Dodged Gaara's sand. And so on. Madara is a lot faster than Nagato and has faster reaction speed. Nagato can be blitzed before he can use ST.

LOL, PS wasnt a last resort against Hashirama. Why would Madara underestimate someone with a legendary dodjutsu that belonged to SoSP himself? 

Nagato cant do anything to Madara when he is under his legged imperfect Susanoo. PS is an overkill.

He could use multiple blades to make multiple PS-enchenced Bijuu Dama in his fight with Hashirama in a very short time period. So its completely irrational to think he cant spam slashes. And only 1 slash can be used to cut anything around Madara, as it was seen during his fight with Hashirama. With one such slash, he'd know where Nagato is, obviously. And then, Nagato gets obliterated.



> No, Madara won't be able to see Nagato in his chameleon so when ever he chooses to reappear if he even chooses to reappear a boss sized ST gets him the hell out of here without Madara knowing what hit him



He might not be able to see Nagato with his EMS, but with PS's slashes, he'd know where Nagato is.

And lol at Madara not knowing what hit him. He has EMS precognition and reaction speed far superior to that of Nagato.

Dude, you got countered. Madara is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nagato, period.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

> He pulls Madara



You have yet to prove he can do that.

Also, Madara himself can absorb ninjutsu. And by the way, his feat of absorbing Hashirama's Senjutsu is very impressive.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 17, 2015)

I already proved on page 53.



> Nagato win this.
> 
> Gravity can't be stopped by objects. If you have a wall and you have a magnet in both sides, they will atrack themselfs even with that object on the middle.
> 
> ...



Banshou Ten'in it's a attrative force, IT'S GRAVITY. 

If u can counter my post, just show me.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

> Gravity can't be stopped by objects. If you have a wall and you have a magnet in both sides, they will atrack themselfs even with that object on the middle.
> 
> The difference here is that Susano'o isn?t a object, IS CHAKRA. CHAKRA. And we saw Gaara catching him by his feets, and putting him out of the Susano'o, didn't we ?
> 
> Banshou Ten'in is going to pull Madara out of Susano'o, and then, something like Shurado can finish him.



Chakra is influenced by gravity as well. The Susanoo will be pulled by gravity, just like Madara. because there is no proof he can pull out Madara who is *completely covered* with Susanoo.

And i dont know how that Gaara thing is gonna help you here.

Plus, Nagato has never shown attractive/repulsive force usage on a large distance. So i highly doubt he can effect Madara with that if he is in PS. And PS is different from the imperfect Susanoo and nobody pulled  the user out of it in Manga.

Plus, i dont know how is his sensor abilities are going to help him here. Madara has something better - EMS precognition. 

By the way, more than 10 posts now. So prove that pulling arguement with scans from manga, bring here those statements from manga. Come on, bring it.

Because up to this moment, every your arguement has been countered.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Chakra is influenced by gravity as well. The Susanoo will be pulled by gravity, just like Madara. because there is no proof he can pull out Madara who is *completely covered* with Susanoo.
> 
> And i dont know how that Gaara thing is gonna help you here.
> 
> ...



In Gaara's case we saw that the user of the susano'o can pass through it if he gets caught. The Banshou Ten'in user can chose what he wants to pull, since he had Asura Path in front of him, and the Banshou Ten'in ONLY FOCUSED Kakashi. Not only that, but the gravity didn't affect the chains, but Kakashi himself.

Link removed
Link removed

Nagato showed that he can use repulsive and attractive forces. He used a weak Shinra Tensei here:

Link removed

To repel a Raiton Jutsu.

He used a medium Shinra tensei here:

Link removed

And repeled 3 frogs.

And the Chou Shinra Tensei when he destroyed the village.

He did the same with Banshou Ten'in:

Link removed

And then he increased the strenght and pulled a rock from the mountain:

Link removed

What is the problem in doing the same? He is the one who chose the target!

He used Shinra tensei to repel everything:

Link removed

And used Shinra Tensei to repel only what he wanted:

Link removed

Gakido COMPLETELY SAFE.

And he did the same with Banshou Ten'in, like I showed to you before, when he didn't pull shurado that was on front of him and he also showed the power to PULL 2 THINGS AT THE SAME TIME (just like he can repel 2 THINGS AT THE SAME TIME) 

Link removed

If you have a wall (imagine that Susano it's the wall), and u have metal in left side and a magnet on the right side, and u move the magnet, the metal is going to move too.

The diference is that Susano'o ISN'T A WALL, since Madara PASSED through it here:

Link removed

Banshou Ten'in >>>>> Susano'o

That's why Nagato wins this. 

And all my arguments got countered? HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

I can see it. 

Banshou Ten'in it's even better than Suna, because it isn't a physical attack.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> IN any  case, he just needs to repel Susano'o too



ST and BT are from the same power, God Path. Both can't be used at the same time. However Nagato could use BT, then use Preta Path to absorb Susanoo.



sanninme rikudo said:


> Well Madara did seem surprised after he activated the Rinnegan. He said "Kabuto what did you do to my body"



He had the Rinnegan before he died. He wasn't surprised. He just wondered why he was a bit more capable than before, as he would be with that Hashirama implant.



> On top of that Nagato has huge summonings as a diversion especially several wild rinnegan having dogs. He pulls Madara and the summonings can go around Madara's general direction blocking him from reach.



Susanoo can work well against the summons. They make a good diversion so that Nagato can use use Preta Path.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

> In Gaara's case we saw that the user of the susano'o can pass through it if he gets caught. The Banshou Ten'in user can chose what he wants to pull, since he had Asura Path in front of him, and the Banshou Ten'in ONLY FOCUSED Kakashi. Not only that, but the gravity didn't affect the chains, but Kakashi himself.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed



Asura Path wasnt in front of him - he was on the right side from Deva Path, as it is seen in the scan you brought here. 

And that Banshou Ten'in had small radius. Thats why it was pulling only Kakashi. Susanoo covers all the user in it, rendering such a trick. 



> Nagato showed that he can use repulsive and attractive forces. He used a weak Shinra Tensei here:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> To repel a Raiton Jutsu.



So what?  

Does that put Nagato anywhere above Madara? 



> He used a medium Shinra tensei here:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> And repeled 3 frogs.



Madara's imperfect Susanoo could repel Planetary Rasengan effortlessly and withstand 50% Kurama's hit. Such a ST will be able to push Madara's imperfect Susanoo to some distance. Thats all .



> And the Chou Shinra Tensei when he destroyed the village.



Which can only push Madara's imperfect Susanoo away without damaging it. CST couldnt kill people in the village under Katsuya's protection, lol.



> And then he increased the strenght and pulled a rock from the mountain:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> What is the problem in doing the same? He is the one who chose the target!



I already explained why he will pull Madara's Susanoo, not just Madara. 



> And used Shinra Tensei to repel only what he wanted:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> Gakido COMPLETELY SAFE.



That was repulsive force usage.

And Gakido cant save Nagato from PS's slashes.



> And he did the same with Banshou Ten'in, like I showed to you before, when he didn't pull shurado that was on front of him and he also showed the power to PULL 2 THINGS AT THE SAME TIME (just like he can repel 2 THINGS AT THE SAME TIME)
> 
> Link removed
> 
> If you have a wall (imagine that Susano it's the wall), and u have metal in left side and a magnet on the right side, and u move the magnet, the metal is going to move too.



Nagato's power isnt magnet.

Also, Nagato can pull only Susanoo, with which Madara will be pulled as well. It completely covers Madara. And thats why Nagato cant pull Madara out of it.



> The diference is that Susano'o ISN'T A WALL, since Madara PASSED through it here:
> 
> Link removed



Gaara's trick is very different from Nagato's abilities. Gaara sank Madara's Susanoo in the sand and used sand under Madara to pull him out of it. Nagato cant ignore the Susanoo and pull just Madara out of it, because it completely covers Madara. If he effects some Susanoo area (Susanoo leg, for example), than again, it will be pulled with Madara inside it. If he uses that ability on the Susanoo area where Madara resides, the Susanoo will be pulled with Madara as well. If you think that in such situation only Susanoo will be pulled, then you are wrong, because Madara will stay there. The user can fly inside his Susanoo and go in any Susanoo area he wants. Madara will stay inside. The Gaara situation was a lot different from Nagato's Deva Path.



> Banshou Ten'in >>>>> Susano'o



Wrong. And i explained why. PS is not even debatable, since Nagato has nothing that can counter it.



> That's why Nagato wins this.



He loses, badly. Madara's imperfect Susanoo can withstand Nagato's abilities. PS is completely uncounterable for Nagato. And Madara is one of the smartest shinobi. He can use his PS from the start against The Rinnegan user.



> And all my arguments got countered? HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA



Yes. 



> Banshou Ten'in it's even better than Suna, because it isn't a physical attack.



Banshou Ten'in is useless against Madara's Susanoo, even an imperfect one. 

PS needs to swing only 1 time to obliterate Nagato, who cant counter.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

> then use Preta Path to absorb Susanoo



Wrong. Because Nagato has no feats to suggest he can absorb even Madara's imperfect legged Susanoo, let alone PS, which can kill Nagato with one blade swing.



> Susanoo can work well against the summons. They make a good diversion so that Nagato can use use Preta Path.



One PS's blade swing and the shockwave made from it goes right through all Nagato's summons, his ST and Preta Path. And guess what happens - Nagato gets obliterated.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> If that were the case, his arms would've been blown off.
> 
> You could also notice that chakra was actually surrounding him, hence his chakra absorption was activated. There'd be no reason for that not to be the case considering Animal Path is watching him as well which means Preta Path clearly had plenty of time to react. There's also the fact that Jiraiya confirms their reactions were perfect.
> 
> ...


Not only do you not see chakra surrounding him, but if it was activated the Rasengan would have already began it's absorption but clearly it didn't

Actually if it was still activated it would have started the absorption process but it didn't.

Oh so just because the time it takes him to absorb things are different this poses to be a limit? Straight Garbage!


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## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Not only do you not see chakra surrounding him, but if it was activated the Rasengan would have already began it's absorption but clearly it didn't
> 
> Actually if it was still activated it would have started the absorption process but it didn't.
> 
> Oh so just because the time it takes him to absorb things are different this poses to be a limit? Straight Garbage!



If it wasnt activated, the Rasengan would have obliterated Preta Path. 

The fact that Madara's Preta Path was countered by Wood Dragon already proves that Nagato's Preta Path has a limit. Because that Rinnegan is Madara's Rinnegan. He is the one who awekened it, so he is the only one who can use full potential of that Rinnegan.

I advice you to read my post up there.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Not only do you not see chakra surrounding him, but if it was activated the Rasengan would have already began it's absorption but clearly it didn't



 Yes you do. If there wasn't, he would've been blown to bits and we all know what happened to one of the Paths when he got hammered by Konohamaru's far weaker Rasengan.

 Check. 

 It clearly didn't because it was too much chakra. Neither of the paths besides Deva Path (alone) has shown the ability to tank a Rasengan. Hell, Preta Path was beat up for most of the match against SM Naruto and all he did was send a Frog Kata towards him which doesn't even compare to any Oodama Rasengan.

 But really, the whole fact that Preta Path was pushed back when he was trying to absorb it implies it was too much chakra. Even if chakra wasn't surrounding him, it's illogical to think he didn't have it up considering Preta Path was still leaning back after the absorption process started. 

 Check. 

 Also, you didn't refute what I said about Jiraiya claiming their reactions were perfect which means he did get up the barrier on time.

 Check  



> Actually if it was still activated it would have started the absorption process but it didn't.



 Because it was too much chakra. Having a barrier isn't any indication of actually starting the absorption process. Nagato while he first started absorbing V2 Bee's chakra didn't have a barrier up, but he clearly was absorbing it.

_Link_

 Check. 



> Oh so just because the time it takes him to absorb things are different this poses to be a limit? Straight Garbage!



 Along with actually being pushed back by the chakra even while clearly absorbing it. Even StarWandered disproved your argument as Preta Path couldn't absorb Wood Dragon, so it clearly has a limit. But hey, it's no surprise you're spewing out complete garbage to prove your point considering you have a Nagato avatar.

 Checkmate.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Actually, we dont know how it hit Madara, because it happened off-panel. But its a fact Madara's Preta Path was countered by Wood Dragon, which was used as it could be used before that (absorbing Tails chakra, for example). That already proves Preta Path has its limits, which makes your arguements moot. Furthermore, Wood Dragon is a *ninjutsu*.
> 
> Also, Nagato has no feats to suggest he can absorb chakra no matter how powerfull it is.
> 
> ...


In a flash back it showed it hit Madara and Hashi said, " This wood dragon absorbs your chakra, this way the ninjutsu your using is rendered useless. So yea tha shows that it didn't literally counter Preta. So keep it coming with the so called proof.
He also has no feats of absorbing a water dragon doesn't mean he can. t was never stated or even shown that powerful chakra nulls Preta.

You say hyperbole because you've ran out of faulty claims. Give Proof not just your mouth running unnecessarily.

A PS's shockwave with Kurama in it didn't even eradicate that it's area. It chopped off the tips of the mountains and called it a day. A Deva Path getting chakra from a weakened Nagato who was far away CST leveled Konaha and left it a crater.
I wasn't talking about  using ST to end PS i was talking about using BT to drag Madara out.

Yea but you are using an emaciated Nagato's feat not a Prime Nagato feat there is no proof stating he can or can't fight for a whole day

Saying it has as much Chakra as a Bjuu is saying Madara has more chakra than a Bjuu seeing as he can maintain it for some time means his reserves are way higher than a Bjuu.

Yea Superior chakra feats to a weakened Nagato if he even does.

Like i said Madara isn't bringing out PS before Nagato's summonings so stop factoring him in. If you think PS's shockwaves would go through several Cerberuses reach Nagato and still hinder him then something's wrong here.

Emaciated Nagato basically outran his ST and and got up to Bee.

Hashi is the only person Madara deems worthy or a threat to him. 
This is EMS Madara and they have no knowledge on each other.

I never said he can't spam slashes i said he never does spam slashes. Hashi was a worthy opponent and Madara didn't even spam slashes like how you guys say he would here.

What don't you get that Madara won't bring PS out before the chameleon comes out.
If he can't see anything how is precognition helping him he can't even pin point his location. Sharingan precognition hasn't been emphaized for years. You can clearly see how it's not even factored in fights anymore.
Madara won't see Nagato or the ST coming so what is Madara going to do? Speed certainly won't get you far without knowing where your destination is.

Yea so much for countered.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 17, 2015)

Yeah, I'm losing my time here.

If you think that Baku suction ability it's the same than Nagato Banshou Ten'in, I can't do anything.

If you don't know the diffenrence between gravity and suction, i can't do anything. 

Stay with your opinion and I stay with mine.

In my opinion, Nagato wins this. Madara has no answer for Banshou Ten'in.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yes you do. If there wasn't, he would've been blown to bits and we all know what happened to one of the Paths when he got hammered by Konohamaru's far weaker Rasengan.
> 
> Check.
> 
> ...


No you don't. If it was up even if it was his limit the absorption should have started. yea the path didn't get blown to pieces did he? he was pushed back because of the angle Jariya came at him from he went from the air then directly down, rather than the oil where it came straight at him so there was no need to position himself.
Jariya did say there reaction time was perfect but does that doesn't prove that he activated Preta at that moment seeing as how It wasn't getting absorbed when Preta was touching it.

Of course not that's not what im saying. In that panel you can see nagato actually absorbing the chakra whereas here no chakra is being absorbed.

The angle he was at caused him to bend back try catching something at that angle and not bending your back. 
The rasengan wasn't even being absorbed.
I already countered Starboy 
once again straight trash.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Yeah, I'm losing my time here.
> 
> If you think that Baku suction ability it's the same than Nagato Banshou Ten'in, I can't do anything.



 Because you can't counter it.



> If you don't know the diffenrence between gravity and suction, i can't do anything.



 Kakashi's explanation implies Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tenin works the same way and using that, we know Shinra Tensei can't suddenly push someone out of a Chakra Construct without enough force to do so. Since that works the same way, we can use Baku's Suction as an example where it failed to suck up an inferior V3 Susanoo.



> Stay with your opinion and I stay with mine.
> 
> In my opinion, Nagato wins this. Madara has no answer for Banshou Ten'in.



-snip-. We have refuted all of your points yet you refuse to accept it and you willingly accept evidence presented from the other side that has already been refuted in order to fuel your bias. You conveniently ignore the fact that despite Oonki pushing up the surface below Madara that he was capable of summoning Susanoo to tank Naruto's Giant Rasengan as well as the fact that Itachi summoned V4 Susanoo faster than Sasuke's Kirin.

 Checkmate.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Wrong. Because Nagato has no feats to suggest he can absorb even Madara's imperfect legged Susanoo, let alone PS, which can kill Nagato with one blade swing.



I'm still waiting for you to tell me how Kurama's Bijuu bomb isn't made of chakra. Thank you for adding Susanoo to that list: tell me why Susanoo isn't made of chakra.

If you can prove that those jutsu aren't made of chakra, then you're correct in assuming that Preta Path won't work. Now since you actually are wrong: you have no basis.

Preta Path owns Susanoo.



> One PS's blade swing and the shockwave made from it goes right through all Nagato's summons, his ST and Preta Path. And guess what happens - Nagato gets obliterated.



Hashirama was able to dodge it just fine. I'm sure Nagato with a Senju body, God Realm flight and Demon Realm enhancements will have no problem.

Also when you show me Perfect Susanoo can slice a repulsive force that disrupts the Shinra Obiki, that will make it look like you have a case for saying PS can get through Shinra Tensei.

If Nagato attacks the multiply condition to his summons, then slicing through the summons is just a stupid idea. 

All your proposals fall short because you're hoping no-one realises that your arguments actually contradict canon. When you consider canon evidence: Nagato will just defeat EMS Madara, plain and simple.

You have no facts to get rid of Preta Path; Madara's Ninjutsu is useless.
You have not addressed Demon Path; Madara's close combat skills are useless.
Any other attacks are countered by Shinra Tensei which you have poorly countered; Madara can't use PS slashes or projectiles to save his ass.

Basically Madara is screwed. 

The EMS is competing against a superior eye, there's no chance Madara's winning here. 
If you cripple Nagato, then Madara stands a better chance. Madara defo wins if you grant him an eye superior to the EMS, the Rinnegan.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 17, 2015)

You aren't refuting my points with images and manga proves. You just say that attrative force it's the same than suction, it's like comparing a Fuuton with Gravity.

Then you think that the Fuuton that repelled Tenten Kunais are the same than Shinra Tensei too?

Please dude. If don't know the difference between Gravity and Fuuton abilities then I've no use for you.

Baku's description:


> When it opens its mouth and inhales, it can create a powerful suction that sucks in everything within a large radius, while at the same time exhaling through its trunk.



Banshou Ten'in description:


> Banshō Ten'in is a technique that manipulates attractive force (引力, inryoku) pull matter towards the user at will.



If you can prove what you said, it's okay. Still, you can't counter the fact that the Tendo Path used Banshou Ten'in with Shurado at front, since Tendo it's the epicenter of the technique and Kakashi WENT TRHOUGH the Shurado's blade.

Images? V?deos?
Link removed
Link removed

You can't even see the difference between prespective. Oh my god.

And u even have this:

Link removed

Why didn't Maw go trough the attrative force if she was here? )))

Link removed

And there. Why did he only pull one rock instead of 2 or more? Because he attracks WHAT HE WANTS. 

And there: Link removed

Baku PULLS EVERYTHING! 

What do u've to say now, bro?

Everything counters Madara. Banshou Ten'in counters Susano'o, Preta Path counters Susano'o (since he counters EVERY NINJUTSU and chakra). 

Ah, Preta Path databook:


Every jutsu it's sucked 

You can't counter my arguments ma browwwwwwwwwwwwww, that's why Nagato wins this 8/10.

And I didn't talk about Gedo Mazo in this fight, because If I did... Was Nagato 10/10.

Only Madara Edo (with Rinnegan Jutsus) or Madara 1 Rinnegan or Madara Juubi Jinchuuriki are better than Nagato. And even tho, I've my doubts about Edo Madara, but since Kabuto said that Nagato was his 2nd best Edo, I will just say that Madara Edo was stronger.

Ah, and I'm waiting your fantastic explanation about attractive force = suction force. If u've 17 years old, u might have a good knowledge about that, so I really want to know


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Regarding pretas limit he absorbed v2 bees entire cloak in one go with a fake rinnegan edo...v2 cloak is all the bijuus chakra concentrated in the densest chakra cloak that chakra amount is far larger then the rasengan jirayia made.....



 Point being made is that Preta Path does have a limit.

 While I'm on the subject, Madara's Preta Path which trumps Nagato's couldn't absorb Mei's Suiton or Oonoki's Massive Jinton for that matter, so clearly there is a limit.



> regarding sussano the chakra quantity composed of sussano is not huge itachi with pathetic reserves on his deathbed was able to make v4 sussano and he does not possess chakra quantity even remotely close to the amount in bees v2 cloak...sussano is a manifestation of the uchiha very powerfull chakra the senju got the huge reserves while the uchiha got the powerfull chakra ....



 That's an assumption that you have to prove. Comparing Itachi's V4 Susanoo to Madara's Susanoo is amusing. You do realize that Madara's chakra output dwarfs EMS Sasuke's to the point where Madara can easily make a Bijuu-sized Susanoo which Nagato's Preta Path has no feats of being able to absorb something that rivals Bijuu-level Chakra Output.

 Even then, PS easily dwarfs the strongest Bijuu there is, 100% Kurama, which V2 Bee doesn't even come close to reaching.

 Madara himself has powerful chakra, but his ability to fight against Hashirama and his whole clan for a whole day along with the fact that he can fight Hashirama using Chakra Constructs that far surpasses 100% Kurama's chakra output suggests his chakra levels are high. Hell, Stabilizing his PS is quite a feat in itself.

 It's safe to say his Chakra levels are high as fuark.


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Point being made is that Preta Path does have a limit.
> 
> While I'm on the subject, Madara's Preta Path which trumps Nagato's couldn't absorb Mei's Suiton or Oonoki's Massive Jinton for that matter, so clearly there is a limit.
> 
> ...



ps does not dwarf kurama...

madara fought hashirama the whole day but never used ps he just got his ems...

-snip- madara has not shown chakra output that far surpasses full kurama not even close how you can say madara has far greater chakra then kurama is beyond me


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 17, 2015)

I'll give you guys one last warning to cut down on all the trash talk that's going on in this debate. If it still persists after this, I'll just be handing out bans. You've been warned enough times.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Just because he is absorbing it doesn't mean the angle of the Rasengan changes.
> I don't seem to see it being absorbed when his hands were on it. if your implying that at first it overwhelmed him to the point where his preta absorption did nothing to the Rasengan then your contradicting yourself, because if it was activated(clearly it wasn't) and it wasn't absorbing his hands still would have been blown off according to you.
> And your calling my argument illogical.



 I've also disproved that a barrier doesn't need to be up to clearly see that Nagato is using Preta Path.

 Why wasn't his Preta Path ability activated when he first grabbed the Rasengan considering Animal Path was used to enhance Preta's reactions which Jiraiya confirmed that all of their reactions are perfect? Looks like you're making baseless claims here.

 And yes, he was still overwhelmed as he was leaning back during the absorption. 

 Did I say he was overwhelmed to the point that his absorption did nothing? I never claimed that, but clearly you like putting words in people's mouth. 

 You haven't showed me feats of Preta Path (when Nagato's chakra is focused on all Paths) can outright grab an Oodama Rasengan without his arms blowing off. He can't even tank a Frog Kata from SM Naruto. 

 Instead of calling me out, tackle all of my points because I can honestly see that you skimmed through a lot of mine.




> When have i ever said that just because the absorption barrier isn't up he can't absorb it? im saying as you can see when his hands were in contact with the rasengan did you see any absorption happen? nothing was getting sucked in at all.



 You were the one who presented the argument. Since you're not sticking with it, I'm assuming I refuted that point. Good, we're finally getting somewhere.

 Because Kishi is clearly showing the moment where Preta Path grabbed the Rasengan. If we want to be technical, we can say Nagato didn't activate Preta Path here:

 Link removed

 Just because he didn't begin absorbing his chakra at that instant even though he did activate Preta Path?



> You answered your own question. "Puny". This Rasengan was huge your not going to tilt back to grasp something small because it's small so it is easier to get a hold of.



 The Rasengan had so much chakra that he tilted back. If it was small, he wouldn't have leaned back during the absorption to absorb it. I don't see how what you stated refutes my argument. 



> Nagato bias? I shouldn't hear bias come out your mouth especially when Im not the one who thinks a PS-less Madara can beat Nagato. The hell outta here with that Garbage!



 I was trying to get a response out of you guys and it worked. That's why I used the  meme as an indication that I was just joking around.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> ps does not dwarf kurama...



 Where's your proof?



> madara fought hashirama the whole day but never used ps he just got his ems...



 Has Nagato fought for a whole day?



> -snip- madara has not shown chakra output that far surpasses full kurama not even close how you can say madara has far greater chakra then kurama is beyond me



 I claimed Chakra output which he does considering his Susanoo Armor could envelop Kurama and the fact that his Inferior PS outright tanked a Bijuudama. Since he can maintain that high Chakra output for a high interval of time, then it's obvious he has high chakra reserves.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 17, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> You aren't refuting my points with images and manga proves. You just say that attrative force it's the same than suction, it's like comparing a Fuuton with Gravity.
> 
> Then you think that the Fuuton that repelled Tenten Kunais are the same than Shinra Tensei too?
> 
> ...



Since u ran from answering me, I'm quoting it again, Naruto-kun.

Can u answer me, please? 

Hashirama said that Naruto KM1 chakra (half Kurama) was almost the same amount than he have. His chakra reserves were stronger than Madara's (do I need to explain this too?), so this means that Madara's chakra reserves might be equal to Hachibi's full form (maximum). 

If this is the case, I don't see Perfect Susano'o using all that chakra from Madara, since he could control Kurama, use Bijuu Damas, and fight for 24 hours with PS up. 

Perfect Susano'o might use chakra equal to 5 tails full form, or 6 tails full form. Nagato absorved a entire v2 from Hachibi without ANY DIFFICULT, I don't see why he can't absorve the entire Perfect Susano'o. 

And also, Gakido can absorve chakra without any limits. Madara has no Natural Energy, Nagato has no risks.

Easy fight.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Feb 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I've also disproved that a barrier doesn't need to be up to clearly see that Nagato is using Preta Path.
> 
> Why wasn't his Preta Path ability activated when he first grabbed the Rasengan considering Animal Path was used to enhance Preta's reactions which Jiraiya confirmed that all of their reactions are perfect? Looks like you're making baseless claims here.
> 
> ...


That was never my point to begin with. Where'd you get that from?
Nothing was being absorbed out of the rasengan as you can clearly see.
if that wasn't your point than your interpreting the manga wrong. You can see that the rasengan wasn't being absorbed.
Taking on something that big at that angle requires that position.

You haven't explained how Preta's absorption was activated when we can see nothing was being absorbed.
There wasn't one point i haven't tackled.

I never presented that argument, you interpreted it that way. I said Preta's absorption was activated because clearly nothing was being sucked out from the Rasengan.
That scan only proves my point. When Nagato was first in contact with Bee no chakra was being absorbed until he said Gakido and then you can see chakra being sucked away. That is apparently not the case here. When Preta was first in contact with the Rasengan nothing was being absorbed.

Not sure what question your asking me.

Not because it had to much chakra it's because of the size of it. If he was to condense that huge rasengan Preta wouldn't lean back because it's small but it would still have the same chakra.

Oh that makes a lot more sense. I don't factor in memes when arguing i can't take them seriously...


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Since u ran from answering me, I'm quoting it again, Naruto-kun.
> 
> Can u answer me, please?
> 
> Hashirama said that Naruto KM1 chakra (half Kurama) was almost the same amount than he have. His chakra reserves were stronger than Madara's (do I need to explain this too?), so this means that Madara's chakra reserves might be equal to Hachibi's full form (maximum).



  I claimed Chakra output, which is completely different from the amount of chakra someone actually has. Chakra output was only relevant considering he managed to maintain such a high chakra output against Hashirama for a high interval time which thus, means his chakra reserves are really high, no?

 You have a lot to prove if you really think Madara's chakra reserves are equal to the Hachibi's Bijuu form. 

 Though actually, since Minato was exerting his chakra when Hashirama made that statement, then wasn't Hashirama also comparing his chakra to Full Kurama?

 There's also the fact that Hashirama stated Chakra Volume, which doesn't mean Chakra Reserves.



> If this is the case, I don't see Perfect Susano'o using all that chakra from Madara, since he could control Kurama, use Bijuu Damas, and fight for 24 hours with PS up.



 Why would he hold back on his PS? 

 Thanks for helping my argument. Constantly controlling Kurama and using chakra to form Bijuudamas (which is Kurama's actual chakra btw) along with PS means his chakra reserves are high.



> Perfect Susano'o might use chakra equal to 5 tails full form, or 6 tails full form. Nagato absorved a entire v2 from Hachibi without ANY DIFFICULT, I don't see why he can't absorve the entire Perfect Susano'o.



 Perfect Susanoo dwarfs the amount of chakra output compared to the Bijuu.

 You want to know why?

* Facts *

 1. 4th Raikage Chakra Output = Hachibi's. This is a fact. The only Bijuu Karin sensed was the Hachibi and thus, when she claimed the Raikage's chakra output is on par with that of a Bijuu, she was referring to the Hachibi.

 2. Onoki himself knows the chakra output of the 4th Raikage quite well, but he literally pissed himself at how Madara can * go as far * as to Stabilize a Chakra construct that already had an unbelievable amount of chakra as it is.

 3. V2 Bee's Chakra output doesn't even compare to the Hachibi's and so thus, Perfect Susanoo has a lot more chakra than a measly V2 Chakra Shroud. 



> And also, Gakido can absorve chakra without any limits. Madara has no Natural Energy, Nagato has no risks.
> 
> Easy fight.



 You haven't proven Preta Path has no limits while we've proven it has, so thus, your argument falls apart right here.

 I'll get to your other post tomorrow, but right now, not in the mood.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 18, 2015)

> In a flash back it showed it hit Madara and Hashi said, " This wood dragon absorbs your chakra, this way the ninjutsu your using is rendered useless. So yea tha shows that it didn't literally counter Preta. So keep it coming with the so called proof.
> He also has no feats of absorbing a water dragon doesn't mean he can. t was never stated or even shown that powerful chakra nulls Preta.
> 
> You say hyperbole because you've ran out of faulty claims. Give Proof not just your mouth running unnecessarily.



Anime flashbacks arent canon. In Manga, we see that Madara was already in Hashirama's Dragon.

And yes - it countered Preta Paths absorbtion with its own absorbtion. And it was Madara's superior Preta Path. That proves Preta Path has its limits.

And Hashirama's Wood Dragon is a ninjutsu. 

Preta Path has no feats to suggest it has no limits at all. 

I already proved why that statement proves nothing. Nagato can absorb all ninjutsu... from shinobi of Naruto's era, for example. 

And Madara's superior Preta Path was useless against a ninjutsu - Wood Dragon. 



> A PS's shockwave with Kurama in it didn't even eradicate that it's area. It chopped off the tips of the mountains and called it a day. A Deva Path getting chakra from a weakened Nagato who was far away CST leveled Konaha and left it a crater.
> I wasn't talking about using ST to end PS i was talking about using BT to drag Madara out.



Chopping a mountain in half >>>>>>> destroying Konoha. Konoha is just a number of buildings, wood constructs, rocks... Some shinobi could destroy rocks with their casual taijutsu hits,lol. Mountain is very dence and Madara's chockwave has gone through mountain as if it was a peace of paper. And Madara cut Hashirama's wood constructs with PS's shockwaves. Nagato's most powerfull Shinra Tensei <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< PS's shockwave.

I already explained why that trick wont work. I advice you to read my other posts in this thread.



> Yea but you are using an emaciated Nagato's feat not a Prime Nagato feat there is no proof stating he can or can't fight for a whole day
> 
> Saying it has as much Chakra as a Bjuu is saying Madara has more chakra than a Bjuu seeing as he can maintain it for some time means his reserves are way higher than a Bjuu.
> 
> ...



Can you prove Nagato can fight for the whole day? No you cant.

Yeah, Madara's reserves are monstrous.

Madara's chakra feats are superior and he has Indra's chakra. Nagato is below Madara in chakra department. 

Nagato's summonings wont do anything to Madara's imperfect Susanoo. And Cerberus has no durability feats to suggest it can withstand PS's shockwave.



> Emaciated Nagato basically outran his ST and and got up to Bee.
> 
> Hashi is the only person Madara deems worthy or a threat to him.
> This is EMS Madara and they have no knowledge on each other.
> ...



And Bee got him with Lariat. Plus, Bee is slower than EMS Madara.

EMS Madara read Uchiha stone tablet. And i highly doubt he is stupid enough to underestimate someone with such ayes. 

But anyway, Nagato cant do anything to Madara if his imperfect Susanoo is up.



> What don't you get that Madara won't bring PS out before the chameleon comes out.
> If he can't see anything how is precognition helping him he can't even pin point his location. Sharingan precognition hasn't been emphaized for years. You can clearly see how it's not even factored in fights anymore.
> Madara won't see Nagato or the ST coming so what is Madara going to do? Speed certainly won't get you far without knowing where your destination is.
> 
> Yea so much for countered.



He will bring it out later when he realises he cant see Nagato. And than, Nagato gets killed.

How can you see EMS precognition is not a factor here, when Sasuke could move so well because of it? 

What is he going to do? Make PS and kill Nagato. 

Yeah - countered. 



> I'm still waiting for you to tell me how Kurama's Bijuu bomb isn't made of chakra. Thank you for adding Susanoo to that list: tell me why Susanoo isn't made of chakra.
> 
> If you can prove that those jutsu aren't made of chakra, then you're correct in assuming that Preta Path won't work. Now since you actually are wrong: you have no basis.
> 
> Preta Path owns Susanoo.



It doesnt matter that its made from chakra - Nagato's Preta Path is not powerfull enough to absorb *that powerfull* chakra. Nagato himself could absorb only Bee's V2 and KCM Naruto's little rasengan. His Preta Path couldnt easily absorb Jiraya's Rasengan. 

And the bomb we are talking about was powerfull enough to destroy Wood Dragon, which could counter Madara's Preta Path. Bijuu Dama connected, but wasnt absorbed. Bijuu Dama connects with Nagato and the result will be the same. 

And i am waiting for proof Nagato can absorb chakra as powerfull as Madara's imperfect legged Susanoo, which could withstand a hit from 50% Kurama, for example.



> Hashirama was able to dodge it just fine. I'm sure Nagato with a Senju body, God Realm flight and Demon Realm enhancements will have no problem.
> 
> Also when you show me Perfect Susanoo can slice a repulsive force that disrupts the Shinra Obiki, that will make it look like you have a case for saying PS can get through Shinra Tensei.
> 
> If Nagato attacks the multiply condition to his summons, then slicing through the summons is just a stupid idea.



Nagato has no reaction speed and movement speed feats to suggest he can dodge Madara's PS's shockwaves. Hashirama is much faster than Nagato.

Ps's shockwave is a non-ninjutsu after-effect from PS's blade swing which could cut Hashirama's wood constructs and mountains easily. Nagato's repulsive force is not powerfull enough to deflect, or stop something as powerfull as PS's shockwave. Because it has no feats to suggest it can.

Stupid idea, when shockwave can go through any ST and any Nagato's summoning, since Nagato's ST and summonings have no feats to suggest they can overpower PS's shockwave? LOL.



> All your proposals fall short because you're hoping no-one realises that your arguments actually contradict canon. When you consider canon evidence: Nagato will just defeat EMS Madara, plain and simple.
> 
> You have no facts to get rid of Preta Path; Madara's Ninjutsu is useless.
> You have not addressed Demon Path; Madara's close combat skills are useless.
> Any other attacks are countered by Shinra Tensei which you have poorly countered; Madara can't use PS slashes or projectiles to save his ass.



How exactly my arguements contradict canon? Explain please.

You have no facts to suggest Nagato's Preta Path has no limits and can absorb Madara's imperfect Susanoo, or PS. What about my facts? Well, Madara's superior Preta Path (he is the true owner of those ayes) was countered with Hashirama's Wood Dragon's absorbtion. That means it has a limit. And that Dragon was destroyed with full Kurama's Bijuu Dama, lol.

Madara is much faster, because he blocked V2 Ei's punch while being an Edo, outpased SM Naruto effortlessly and reacted to Gokage without much of a trouble. Demon Path is the one which absorbes soul? Madara can beat Nagato in a very close distance with taijutsu, avoiding soul absorbtion and can absorb Nagato's chakra as well, just like he absorbed Hashirama's SM and Sasuke's Amaterasu.

Gedo Mazo is useless against PS and there is no proof it can go through Susanoo. Not only that, but Nagato seemingly cant use anything else when Gedo Mazo is summoned and that soul dragon can be easily dodged by Madara, while Nagato will be paralyzed.

ST cant do anything to Madara's imperfect Susanoo, let alone PS. It can only push back his Susanoo. Thats all. And PS's shockwave can go through anything Nagato has in his arsenal. It will go through and obliterate Nagato.



> Basically Madara is screwed.
> 
> The EMS is competing against a superior eye, there's no chance Madara's winning here.
> If you cripple Nagato, then Madara stands a better chance. Madara defo wins if you grant him an eye superior to the EMS, the Rinnegan.



No he is not.

Madara himself is superior to Nagato, plus that Rinnegan is not Nagato's Rinnegan. Thats the thing. Ayes are mere tools. The shinobi's power is more important.

Nagato cant do anything to Madara's imperfect Susanoo, even with CT which Madara's Susanoo can easily withstand when sucked it it (lol, CT couldnt destroy simple rocks sucked in it). Madara can withstand everything Nagato has and he definetely obliterates Nagato with PS.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Feb 18, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> You aren't refuting my points with images and manga proves. You just say that attrative force it's the same than suction, it's like comparing a Fuuton with Gravity.
> 
> Then you think that the Fuuton that repelled Tenten Kunais are the same than Shinra Tensei too?
> 
> ...



U didn't answer me till now 

And btw, I never comparared v2 with perfect susano'o. I said that If he had NO PROBLEMS absorving version 2, he had no problems absorving the perfect susano'o.

Databook:



Can you please read? Where's the limitation?

Did they show any limitation?

Madara said "too much" for a normal rasen shuriken? 6 paths absorved one of them with no problems, AND OFCOURSE that version 2 has more chakra than a Rasen Shuriken. 

What Madara said, was something like: "Too much Energy", because of their tactic with sucessive attacks. 

And yes, u might be right about Kira A = Bijuu Chakra, but I don't think that Karin compared it with hachibi. But this don't change anything. 

Gakido > Ninjutsus
Shinra Tensei > Ninjutsus and Taijutsus
Rinnegan > Madara Genjutsus
Banshou Ten'in > Susano'o

You can't change this FACTS.


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## trance (Feb 18, 2015)

55 pages?



What has changed? Once Perfect Susanoo comes out, Nagato gets bent over.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 18, 2015)

> You aren't refuting my points with images and manga proves. You just say that attrative force it's the same than suction, it's like comparing a Fuuton with Gravity.
> 
> Then you think that the Fuuton that repelled Tenten Kunais are the same than Shinra Tensei too?
> 
> Please dude. If don't know the difference between Gravity and Fuuton abilities then I've no use for you.



You dont understand my point, do you? 

The Susanoo completely covers Madara. There is a Susanoo in a way of Nagato's attractive force. In all your scans, people were not in front of his attractive force. And he can just use small force radius. Thats it.

Pulling trick wont work on Madara, since Susanoo completely covers him. Nagato can attract Susanoo with Madara inside, but he cant pull Madara out. Even if he decides to pull Susanoo from Madara, Madara will stay there, since he can stay there if he wants to. He can fly there and so on.

Countered.



> If you can prove what you said, it's okay. Still, you can't counter the fact that the Tendo Path used Banshou Ten'in with Shurado at front, since Tendo it's the epicenter of the technique and Kakashi WENT TRHOUGH the Shurado's blade.



Already countered. You better look at your scans more attentively. Shurado was on the right side from Deva. Deva used small radius attractive force to pull Kakashi. Thats all.



> Images? V?deos?
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> ...



*Look at the scans attentively. *



> What do u've to say now, bro?
> 
> Everything counters Madara. Banshou Ten'in counters Susano'o, Preta Path counters Susano'o (since he counters EVERY NINJUTSU and chakra).
> 
> ...



*I have to say that you should look at your scans attentively and be sure they prove anything before posting them here. *

No he doesnt. Nagato doesnt have feats to suggest he can absorb Madara's imperfect, or perfect Susanoo.
Madara's Preta Path was countered by Wood Dragon, which is a *NINJUTSU*. 


Deva Path has nothing to Madara's imperfect Susanoo. 

Ah that Databook statement. First of all, it states about chakra properties. And nothing about chakra's strength.

If there was a statement that no matter how powerfull the chakra is, it can suck it, then i'll believe you. But there is no such a statement. The endless whirlpool could be a hyperbole. And... maybe that whirlpool is endless because it endlessly whirls? LOL. 

And explain to me why Madara's Preta Path couldnt absorb Hashirama's Wood Dragon, which is a ninjutsu. 

Countered. Everything you posted was countered. 



> I said that If he had NO PROBLEMS absorving version 2, he had no problems absorving the perfect susano'o.



Nice logic. 



> Can you please read? Where's the limitation?
> 
> Did they show any limitation?
> 
> ...



Wood Dragon. 

And the rest...

Gakido<<<< imperfect, or perfect Susanoo.
Shinra Tensei<<<< PS's shockwave.
Madara with EMS>>>>>> Nagato with Rinnegan.
Susanoo >>>>>>>> Banshou Ten'in.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 18, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> You aren't refuting my points with images and manga proves. You just say that attrative force it's the same than suction, it's like comparing a Fuuton with Gravity.
> 
> Then you think that the Fuuton that repelled Tenten Kunais are the same than Shinra Tensei too?
> 
> ...



You can't even answer my facts.

I like ur logic. Now that i've got 10 posts and proved what I said, you can't answer xD

And one more:

Link removed

Attracting the nail without attracting the rest of the wood.

XD

Energy being affected by gravity, is that what you are trying to say my bro? xD 

Even if u consider that Susano'o has mass, I already proved that Nagato can chose what he wants to pull with that on the post ahead.

Shurado on front of Pain Tendo.
Maw behind Naruto that got pulled.
Nail being pulled.

Gravity it's completely different from suction ma boye. Sorry, lost my time with you.

And that was my last post, since Nagato wins this 8/10. Have a nice day.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Nice logic.



 Yeah, I refuted that logic. I should've Checkmated  him there for that, but chose not to.

 It's hilarious because he's calling us out for no proof and yet he makes assumptions like that and expects everyone to think the same way.

 I'm still confused why he compared Madara's reserves to Hashirama's when Nagato's reserves doesn't even come close to Hashirama's anyways.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 18, 2015)

You don't even know the difference between gravity and suction. 

If you can explain me what those 2 "things" are, I will be thankfull. Because, from what you guys said before, Banshou Ten'in and Baku's ability are exacly the same thing.

And also, saying that Tendo Path isn't behind Shurado Path, makes me laugh.

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

Can't u understand what is the meaning of prespective? O.o 

Also, Pain was the epicenter in *this* technique and Kakashi went through the Shurado's blade.

My bad if u can't even see that Nagato can chose what he wants to pull, like we can see in this image,and because of that he can do the same against someone that is inside the Susano'o, because, like we saw when gaara took out Madara, Susano'o isn't a "wall" (that's why sound and polen are effective ))) , so as gravity.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 18, 2015)

> You can't even answer my facts.
> 
> I like ur logic. Now that i've got 10 posts and proved what I said, you can't answer xD
> 
> ...



Ok, maybe i didnt explain my thoughts properly. I'll do it for you. 

1. Small radius of attractive force.
2. Its range which seemingly got only those items he wanted to pull. Maybe you can prove his attractive force range was long enough to get not only the nail, but the wood as well?

Such a trick wont work with Madara's Susanoo because it completely covers the user and Nagato cant make microscopic attractive force.

Countered. 



> Energy being affected by gravity, is that what you are trying to say my bro? xD
> 
> Even if u consider that Susano'o has mass, I already proved that Nagato can chose what he wants to pull with that on the post ahead.
> 
> ...



Of course it has, lol. Maybe you should re-read the manga so you'd know chakra is effected by gravity? 

And you proved nothing - you have been countered pretty well.

Shurado on the right side, not infront. Have you ever seen that scan? 

The rest is laughable. You should watch your own scans again. 

All of that has been countered. 



pluuuuffff said:


> You don't even know the difference between gravity and suction.
> 
> If you can explain me what those 2 "things" are, I will be thankfull. Because, from what you guys said before, Banshou Ten'in and Baku's ability are exacly the same thing.
> 
> ...



At the scan of pulling, the Path is clearly not in front of Deva Paths attractive force. Again - look your own scans attentively before mosting them here. And of course kakashi got through Shurado's blade - because Deva pulled him there. But that still proves nothing. Watch your scans.

Nagato's gravity cannot pull out only Madara - it will pull out Susanoo as well and i explained why. 

PS is different from other Susanoo's so it is out of it here.

And gravity effects Susanoo, just like pretty much everything in Narutoverse.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 18, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It doesnt matter that its made from chakra - Nagato's Preta Path is not powerfull enough to absorb *that powerfull* chakra. Nagato himself could absorb only Bee's V2 and KCM Naruto's little rasengan. His Preta Path couldnt easily absorb Jiraya's Rasengan.
> 
> And the bomb we are talking about was powerfull enough to destroy Wood Dragon, which could counter Madara's Preta Path. Bijuu Dama connected, but wasnt absorbed. Bijuu Dama connects with Nagato and the result will be the same.
> 
> And i am waiting for proof Nagato can absorb chakra as powerfull as Madara's imperfect legged Susanoo, which could withstand a hit from 50% Kurama, for example.[



Actually when you say a Preta Path, regardless of the user, isn't powerful enough to absorb a jutsu. It shows that you don't know how the jutsu works. 

Now you can only demand proof when you've proved your points first. Otherwise it looks like you can't prove any of your claims and are trying to shift the burden of proof as a result.

Show me that Preta Path cannot absorb chakra like canon says it can.




> Nagato has no reaction speed and movement speed feats to suggest he can dodge Madara's PS's shockwaves. Hashirama is much faster than Nagato.



Nagato has quite a lot of reaction feats and his crippled feats were pretty good. He has a Senju body to top it off.



> Ps's shockwave is a non-ninjutsu after-effect from PS's blade swing which could cut Hashirama's wood constructs and mountains easily. Nagato's repulsive force is not powerfull enough to deflect, or stop something as powerfull as PS's shockwave. Because it has no feats to suggest it can.



All this tells me is you don't know what Shinra Tensei is. 
Force that repels all>a shock wave from a sword.



> Stupid idea, when shockwave can go through any ST and any Nagato's summoning, since Nagato's ST and summonings have no feats to suggest they can overpower PS's shockwave? LOL.



Except you have no proof whatsoever that PS can do anything to ST. 
We've got manga and databook evidence showing that Shinra Tensei can repel all jutsu. 

You're just a poster who claims PS can do it without any reason. You're not going to be taken seriously without evidence on your part. 




> You have no facts to suggest Nagato's Preta Path has no limits and can absorb Madara's imperfect Susanoo, or PS. What about my facts? Well, Madara's superior Preta Path (he is the true owner of those ayes) was countered with Hashirama's Wood Dragon's absorbtion. That means it has a limit. And that Dragon was destroyed with full Kurama's Bijuu Dama, lol.



Preta Path has no limit. Lord knows where you get the notion that it has a limit. That's one thing wrong with your facts: they're lacking. No-one understands where you're getting them from such as a shock wave beating a force that repels all and an absorption jutsu with no limit suddenly having one.

Using a jutsu Hashirama made to counter the jutsu as your point only strengthens mine. The jutsu has no limit hence Hashirama invented a jutsu to beat it.

Also the Kurama point just shows you're reaching hard. The dragon needs to touch the person to absorb. Preta Path doesn't. The dragon needs to hold onto Kurama to absorb, Preta Path doesn't.

This has been repeated to you a number of times.



> Gedo Mazo is useless against PS and there is no proof it can go through Susanoo. Not only that, but Nagato seemingly cant use anything else when Gedo Mazo is summoned and that soul dragon can be easily dodged by Madara, while Nagato will be paralyzed.



So the summon which has a chakra dragon which drains chakra is useless against summon which is made of chakra. Right.

Hanzo's jutsu paralysed Nagato, not Gedo Mazo. Also the jutsu which uses the chakra dragons is what requires synchronisation, nothing else.



> Madara himself is superior to Nagato, plus that Rinnegan is not Nagato's Rinnegan. Thats the thing. Ayes are mere tools. The shinobi's power is more important.



And Madara's power with the EMS is too weak to touch the powerful tool that is the Rinnegan.



> Nagato cant do anything to Madara's imperfect Susanoo, even with CT which Madara's Susanoo can easily withstand when sucked it it (lol, CT couldnt destroy simple rocks sucked in it). Madara can withstand everything Nagato has and he definetely obliterates Nagato with PS.



You see, this would mean a lot more if you actually had actual facts to back it up.

As it stands PS and all Ninjutsu are useless due to Preta Path. All Madara's remaining options are useless due to ST, Asura and the other Paths.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Feb 18, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> At the scan of pulling, the Path is clearly not in front of Deva Paths attractive force. Again - look your own scans attentively before mosting them here. And of course kakashi got through Shurado's blade - because Deva pulled him there. But that still proves nothing. Watch your scans.
> 
> Nagato's gravity cannot pull out only Madara - it will pull out Susanoo as well and i explained why.
> 
> ...



Dude, everything that has MASS is affected by gravity. The problem is that Nagato can control what he wants to pull.

AND AGAIN, can you please see my images?  Ur not seeing things from Kakashi's eyes, what the manga shows you IT'S PRESPECTIVE.

the nature of his attacks

Trace a line between Path TENDO and Kakashi, and u will see that Shurado's on the middle.

3

Can you see now? -.-

AND YES, he got pulled for Shurado's blade BECAUSE NAGATO PULLED HIM FOR THAT.

Now, SEE what Kakashi says AFTER receiving that technique:

the nature of his attacks

FROM WHAT KAKASHI EXPERIMENTED, HE WAS THE EPICENTER.

If Path Tendo was the epicenter and Kakashi went through the Shurado's blade, Shurado's blade = on front of tendo path.

Do u need to be a genious to understand this bro?

It's the same than this:



The left black tower  is behind black peon.. Still, from this perspective, the left black tower it's at the right of the PEON.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 18, 2015)

Nagato isn't blocking a PS attack with ST....

st vs 6k Naruto: the nature of his attacks

And before I hear , Nagato > pain , you have to realize that the gap between Nagato and pain is much smaller then the gap between PS and 6k Naruto .


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 18, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Nagato isn't blocking a PS attack with ST....
> 
> st vs 6k Naruto: Tenpenchii
> 
> And before I hear , Nagato > pain , you have to realize that the gap between Nagato and pain is much smaller then the gap between PS and 6k Naruto .



he has cst....not that he needs to block ps with he has a giant bird on which he can fly out of range while nuking madara from above..


----------



## pluuuuffff (Feb 18, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Nagato isn't blocking a PS attack with ST....
> 
> st vs 6k Naruto: Tenpenchii
> 
> And before I hear , Nagato > pain , you have to realize that the gap between Nagato and pain is much smaller then the gap between PS and 6k Naruto .



Tenpenchii

That's why he resisted. Also, the Shinra Tensei was a normal one. Not even close to the one used on Konoha or frogs.

Also, I don't see why we needs that when he manipulates gravity with banshou, but k


----------



## Veracity (Feb 18, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> he has cst....not that he needs to block ps with he has a giant bird on which he can fly out of range while nuking madara from above..



CST is the only thing in his arsenal that would repel a PS swing nevermind the side effects of the Justu itself. And for every ps swing Nagato is sure as hell not going to block with CST.

Madaras PS stands taller than this meteor: Mushikui
Nagato is not flying out of its range and nuking shit.

Nuke Ps with what exactly ?

@pluff.

It resisted a bit but was still overpowered by a casual attack from 6k Naruto. Nagato will need CST to block a single sword swing, and he isn't casting a CST every sword swing.

I never said anything about his gravity ability, only that he will be hard pressed to block even a single sword strike.. Madara can create more than 10 in a single panel.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Feb 18, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> CST is the only thing in his arsenal that would repel a PS swing nevermind the side effects of the Justu itself. And for every ps swing Nagato is sure as hell not going to block with CST.
> 
> Madaras PS stands taller than this meteor: Mushikui
> Nagato is not flying out of its range and nuking shit.
> ...


 
Yes, that's true. However, in his prime he can abuse more of stronger Shinra Tenseis, or at least, he can do the same used on Bee and Naruto. For me, it's enough to stop the shockwave that is directioned for him.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> You don't even know the difference between gravity and suction.
> 
> If you can explain me what those 2 "things" are, I will be thankfull. Because, from what you guys said before, Banshou Ten'in and Baku's ability are exacly the same thing.
> 
> ...




 You clearly do not know how Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tenin works. 

 4

 Both pushes or pull things away from its center and uses gravity to do so. Based on Kakashi's explanation, we clearly can tell they are quite similar in that they both uses gravity to repel or pull something towards Pain's center. However, using your argument, Shinra Tensei would also ignore the mass of Perfect Susanoo which you know is downright false. Considering Bansho Tenin also works practically the same way, we can conclude that Madara would not be pulled out of his Susanoo.

 Check. 

 Since this is the case, we can use Baku's Suction as an example to display how even an Inferior V3 Susanoo can resist the magnitude of a force that dwarfs Bansho Tenin as it barely pulled Kakashi towards Pain until his grip slipped or that the best Pain could do was pull a boulder that didn't even dwarf KN6 Naruto.

 Check.

 Can you explain to me how Gravity suddenly ignores the mass of Susanoo when Baku's Air Suction did not as logically, Baku's Air Suction would suck up Sasuke like a vacuum would it not?

 Check.

 4

 You yourself have also claimed Preta Path has no limits for Nagato while Madara with a superior Preta Path and the ability to absorb ninjutsu without it was unable to absorb Mei's Lava Release and had to resort to Susanoo to defend against it.

 4

 Why didn't he use Preta Path here? I thought Preta Path had no limits. 

 Check. 


 It's also been disproved about the Sheer Power of Chou Shinra Tensei as Katsuyu managed to protect the villagers under them. It's not as strong as you believe it to be. You also failed to refute why Madara can't activate his Susanoo quickly enough to avoid Nagato's attacks considering Bonly (I believe) presented good evidence for why he should be able to. That's where your argument falls apart. Even if you can support this claim of yours, you can't refute what Bonly said so your argument for Nagato was meaningless. 

 Checkmate.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Feb 18, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Anime flashbacks arent canon. In Manga, we see that Madara was already in Hashirama's Dragon.
> 
> And yes - it countered Preta Paths absorbtion with its own absorbtion. And it was Madara's superior Preta Path. That proves Preta Path has its limits.
> 
> ...


Dam that sucks, too bad it was in the manga. he even said "This wood dragon absorbs your chakra, this way the ninjutsu your using is rendered useless. No where did it say it literally countered Preta or that he used Preta. This neither shows or implies a limit.
You have no feats to suggest it has limits at all. Stop being so stubborn and asking others for proof when you can't prove any of your claims, you gotta take the L son! especially considering the fact it stated in the DB that it can absorb every ninjutsu,why your even trying to debate that is beyond me. Unless your word is higher than the DB the portion of the argument is over.

Im pretty sure eradicating Konaha is greater than chopping off the top of a mountain. Not even a whole mountain and your debating this when the former came from a path receiving chakra from an emaciated Nagato that was far away.

So it seems to me your saying gravity doesn't effect an object when something is in front of it. (That's absurd).
if Shurado wasn't truly in front of Tendo why did Kakashi come flying into Shurado and not Tendo? It's more than likely perspective. 

Can you Prove Madara has greater chakra than a Prime Nagato other than stating feats in which you think have greater value than that of Nagato's? Doubt it.

His summonings won't do anything to PS they're there to help defend Nagato. Madara doesn't have a way to put down Cerberus. If you believe a shockwave is going through multiple Cerberuses and still harming Nagato who can hold up the ST barrier, then that's farcical. 

Nagato was crippled, what's your point? the fact that he made it to Bee before he could recover is ridiculously impressive.
The fool called Nagato and Obito brats. Im sure his arrogance won't fail to get the best of him here.

Meaning you've ran out of arguments. That's fine.
Didn't know people bring out their strongest move almost instantly because they can't see their opponent. Weird. When Nagato is in the chameleon PS won't be on the field yet. There's no way you can say someone of Madara's mindset will bring out PS because of that, that's just plain unreasonable and spurious.

When's the last time we've seen Sharingan precognition drastically help out someone?

Still can't go against the DB PS comes out if he even has time for that,(as Nagato can just hide in the Chameleon and end it there) and Preta nullifies and absorbs it. it be moronic for someone that you guys gas up to literally no ends to bring out PS a second time, as it would just be a second buffet for Nagato.

Face it he's at Nagato's mercy.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 19, 2015)

> Dam that sucks, too bad it was in the manga. he even said "This wood dragon absorbs your chakra, this way the ninjutsu your using is rendered useless. No where did it say it literally countered Preta or that he used Preta. This neither shows or implies a limit.
> You have no feats to suggest it has limits at all. Stop being so stubborn and asking others for proof when you can't prove any of your claims, you gotta take the L son! especially considering the fact it stated in the DB that it can absorb every ninjutsu,why your even trying to debate that is beyond me. Unless your word is higher than the DB the portion of the argument is over.



Too bad we dont see the moment when the Dragon got Madara: 4

By the way, *"i'll negate jutsu you are currently using to drain all of that chakra!"*.

Maybe you will stop to deny obvious manga facts? 

And yes = he countered Preta Path. Because:

1. Naruto's Shuriken wasnt absorbed because it was blown up, if Preta was going to absorb it, it would not detonate.
2. There is no sense for Madara to not use all of his abilities in that fight and in that war in general. Plus, Hashirama was talking exactly about his Preta Path. 

I will put a link to another site with different manga for you: Link removed

Man, *it is up to you to prove it has no limits*. *Manga has never applied it has no limits at all*. And in fact, that Wood Dragon situation proves Preta Path has its limits, since Wood Dragon is a ninjutsu and Madara's Preta Path couldnt absorb it, or render its absorbtion useless.

That Databook statement was rendered useless up there - read my previous posts.



> Im pretty sure eradicating Konaha is greater than chopping off the top of a mountain. Not even a whole mountain and your debating this when the former came from a path receiving chakra from an emaciated Nagato that was far away.
> 
> So it seems to me your saying gravity doesn't effect an object when something is in front of it. (That's absurd).
> if Shurado wasn't truly in front of Tendo why did Kakashi come flying into Shurado and not Tendo? It's more than likely perspective.



No it is not. Because the durability of Konoha's houses and some wooden constructs is not high at all. PS's shockwave could cut multiple mountains in one swing and cut Hashirama's wood constructs.

You see, a one-point pressure of CST isnt all that strong. 8 Gates Guy's Night Guy doesnt have AoE comparable to CST and wont be able to destroy the whole Konoha as CST did. But its power is far greater than CST. Its piercing power.

The same is with PS's shockwave - its piercing power is beyond CST. Its much more powerfull. In fact, its also beyond any of Nagato's abilities. He cant do anything to such a shockwave. He cant protect himself from it, he cant absorb it, he cant dodge it. 

And lol, where are you getting that "emaciated Nagato" thing? Explain that to me.

It affects an object he wants to pull AND something that is in front of his attractive force. Thats the thing. Thats why he wont be able to pull Madara out of Susanoo.

Maybe because he used his attractive force to pierce Kakashi with Shurado's blade? Shurado wasnt in front of his gravity force anyway. he can manipulate attractive and repulsive force as he wants, but all objects in its range will suffer effects from it.



> Can you Prove Madara has greater chakra than a Prime Nagato other than stating feats in which you think have greater value than that of Nagato's? Doubt it.
> 
> His summonings won't do anything to PS they're there to help defend Nagato. Madara doesn't have a way to put down Cerberus. If you believe a shockwave is going through multiple Cerberuses and still harming Nagato who can hold up the ST barrier, then that's farcical.
> 
> ...



Yes. Because:

1. Those ayes are Madara's ayes. Thus only Madara can use their full potential.
2. Madara has better feats with Preta Path.

Why do you want me to prove that anyway? You are the one who is trying to make me believe Preta Path is limitless. One limitless power cant be more powerfull than the other limitless power - they are both limitless. At least according to you. And you cant prove that Preta Path is limitless, by the way. 

He doesnt need to put down Cerberus - he needs only make a shockwave which will go right through Cerberus and kill Nagato. Thats the thing - Cerberus has no durability feats to suggest PS's shockwave cant go through it. If it can cut Hashirama's constructs and multiple mountains, than it can cut any Cerberus and go through any Nagato's ST.

By the way, shockwave will go right through Cerberus before there are many of them. One Cerberus is pierced with shockwave and Nagato is vanished.

The fact Edo Madara, who was physically not as good as alive EMS Madara, blocked V2 Ei's punch point blank is more impressive than anything Nagato has done. And by the way, Bee was in a free fall, as i remember. 

The problem is  - EMS Madara never knew Nagato. And the fact Nagato has such ayes can provoke Madara to use PS from the start. Madara was not an idiot.



> Meaning you've ran out of arguments. That's fine.
> Didn't know people bring out their strongest move almost instantly because they can't see their opponent. Weird. When Nagato is in the chameleon PS won't be on the field yet. There's no way you can say someone of Madara's mindset will bring out PS because of that, that's just plain unreasonable and spurious.
> 
> When's the last time we've seen Sharingan precognition drastically help out someone?



Since i can counter your arguements with ease, i didnt. 

Well, its not typical for a shinobi to become invisible. And since Madara will most likely not be able to see him, he can use his PS. Especially if he saw Nagato's ayes. Anyway, Nagato cant crush even imperfect Susanoo. PS is an overkill.

Sasuke. 



> Still can't go against the DB PS comes out if he even has time for that,(as Nagato can just hide in the Chameleon and end it there) and Preta nullifies and absorbs it. it be moronic for someone that you guys gas up to literally no ends to bring out PS a second time, as it would just be a second buffet for Nagato.
> 
> Face it he's at Nagato's mercy.



Still cant do anything to Madara if he is in his imperfect Susanoo except pushing it back with ST. Or send it flying away. 

LOL at Preta absorbing Madara's imperfect Susanoo. Maybe you can provide evidence that Nagato can do such a thing? He has no feats to suggest that. 

Oh, and two words - Wood Dragon. 



> Dude, everything that has MASS is affected by gravity. The problem is that Nagato can control what he wants to pull.
> 
> AND AGAIN, can you please see my images? Ur not seeing things from Kakashi's eyes, what the manga shows you IT'S PRESPECTIVE.
> 
> ...



I can see that in this scan, Shurado is not in Banshou Ten'in's range and thats why he is not pulled: 4

I hope you can see that now. 

Oh, and this: 4

Can you see that now? 



> AND YES, he got pulled for Shurado's blade BECAUSE NAGATO PULLED HIM FOR THAT.
> 
> Now, SEE what Kakashi says AFTER receiving that technique:
> 
> 4



So what? How is that proving anything in this debate? 



> FROM WHAT KAKASHI EXPERIMENTED, HE WAS THE EPICENTER.



He just used that ability from his center. Because... He is the one who uses that ability. He can manipulate gravitational forces as he wants in some range. But those gravitational forces will effect anything in its range.



> If Path Tendo was the epicenter and Kakashi went through the Shurado's blade, Shurado's blade = on front of tendo path.



Kakashi was in range of his ability and Deva Path manipulated gravitational forces in the way to pull Kakashi to Shurado's blade. But yeah, Deva Path is the centre, because he is the one who uses that ability. He is like a core that manipulates gravity as he wants to attract objects somewhere, or push them back. Just like Nagato pushed back Bee's knife, for example. But such a trick wont work on Madara's Susanoo, because Susanoo will be in Banshou Ten'in's range. Shurado wasnt in that range. See the scans. You can even see that Deva Paths hand is in no way going to Shurado's hands direction. Shurado is not on the way of Banshou Ten'in.

I think its useless to repply to the rest of your post, since it has been countered anyway.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 19, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Yes, that's true. However, in his prime he can abuse more of stronger Shinra Tenseis, or at least, he can do the same used on Bee and Naruto. For me, it's enough to stop the shockwave that is directioned for him.



This: Tenpenchii

Isn't even comparable or EVEN close to this: Tenpenchii
The shockwave dwarfs PS, and ps is bigger than this: Tenpenchii

Like there is no opinion here . That ST isn't blocking anything. He needs his strongest ST, and that just fucks him over. Pains strongest ST put him out the game for several chapters. Give  Nagato The benefit of the doubt and he still can't use his strongest ST back to back . He gets killed by the second wave .


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 19, 2015)

> Actually when you say a Preta Path, regardless of the user, isn't powerful enough to absorb a jutsu. It shows that you don't know how the jutsu works.
> 
> Now you can only demand proof when you've proved your points first. Otherwise it looks like you can't prove any of your claims and are trying to shift the burden of proof as a result.
> 
> Show me that Preta Path cannot absorb chakra like canon says it can.



You dont get that, do you? Preta Path can absorb chakra, but it has its limits. Preta Path is not limitless and cant absorb as much and as powerfull chakra as the user wants. 

Hashirama demonstrated that with his *ninjutsu* - The Wood Dragon, with which he *countered* Preta Paths absorbtion. 

And, well, Nagato has no feats to suggest he can absorb even as powerfull chakra as PS, for example. Its highly doubtfull he can absorb even Madara's imperfect Susanoo.

Because of lack of feats. 



> Nagato has quite a lot of reaction feats and his crippled feats were pretty good. He has a Senju body to top it off.



Such as? KCM naruto was not the same as the one who fought Ei, since lots of KCM clones were active. And Bee got Nagato with his Lariat. But as if that matters - Bee is not as fast as Madara anyway.

Just a Senju body doesnt give you high speed. Ask Tsunade. 



> All this tells me is you don't know what Shinra Tensei is.
> Force that repels all>a shock wave from a sword.



It is up to you to prove it can repulse anything, including such a powerfull and fast kinetic force as PS's shockwave. Nagato's most powerfull ST is not even close to PS's shockwave in terms of destructive capacity. 



> Except you have no proof whatsoever that PS can do anything to ST.
> We've got manga and databook evidence showing that Shinra Tensei can repel all jutsu.
> 
> You're just a poster who claims PS can do it without any reason. You're not going to be taken seriously without evidence on your part.



ST can destroy Konoha, which is not as durable as a single mountain. Houses and some cafe's arent as durable as mountain. Or Hashirama's wood constructs, whoch PS could cut.

Feats >>> your opinion. PS has much better feats. PS's shockwave is a force beyond Nagato's abilities. 

Oh, and in fact, PS's shockwave is not even a jutsu, lol.



> Preta Path has no limit. Lord knows where you get the notion that it has a limit. That's one thing wrong with your facts: they're lacking. No-one understands where you're getting them from such as a shock wave beating a force that repels all and an absorption jutsu with no limit suddenly having one.
> 
> Using a jutsu Hashirama made to counter the jutsu as your point only strengthens mine. The jutsu has no limit hence Hashirama invented a jutsu to beat it.
> 
> ...



You Nagato fanboys are saying Nagato's Preta Path has no limits so it is up to prove that. Because you have no evidence that Preta Path has no limits.

In fact, Hashirama's Wood Dragon countered Preta Path. So it has its limits. And by the way, Wood Dragon is a ninjutsu. 

LOL, the fact Hashirama used his *new* (you cant prove that up to this moment) Wood Dragon on Madara's Preta Path is a proof Preta Path has no limits?

First of all, i want you to prove that Wood Dragon is not the same as before.
Second, that logic is strange at least. Preta Path is limitless because Hashirama invented a jutsu to counter it? Maybe the fact it was countered proves it isnt limitless? 

Preta Path does, if the chakra is too powerfull, as seen when Jiraya attacked Preta Path with Rasengan. 



> So the summon which has a chakra dragon which drains chakra is useless against summon which is made of chakra. Right.
> 
> Hanzo's jutsu paralysed Nagato, not Gedo Mazo. Also the jutsu which uses the chakra dragons is what requires synchronisation, nothing else.



That Gedo Mazo dragon drains souls, not chakra. And there is no proof that dragon can go through Susanoo. Plus, Nagato havent used any of his abilities after it was summoned so i highly doubt he could, especially that he became a cripple after that. Plus, Madara is more than fast enough to dodge that dragon. 

Realy? Nagato havent used any jutsu and was pierced with chakra rods anyway.



> And Madara's power with the EMS is too weak to touch the powerful tool that is the Rinnegan.



No it is not. PS perfectly touches and kills Nagato. I already explained why.



> You see, this would mean a lot more if you actually had actual facts to back it up.
> 
> As it stands PS and all Ninjutsu are useless due to Preta Path. All Madara's remaining options are useless due to ST, Asura and the other Paths.



And i have them. 

No they are not. You still have to prove Preta Path can do anything to PS.

Asura is useless here. Just like ST and other paths.



Likes boss said:


> This: Tenpenchii
> 
> Isn't even comparable or EVEN close to this: Tenpenchii
> The shockwave dwarfs PS, and ps is bigger than this: Link removed
> ...



Even his strongest ST isnt going to protect him from a single PS's shockwave.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 19, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually when you say a Preta Path, regardless of the user, isn't powerful enough to absorb a jutsu. It shows that you don't know how the jutsu works.



 This doesn't refute our argument considering you didn't even try to show us how it works.

 Check. 



> Now you can only demand proof when you've proved your points first. Otherwise it looks like you can't prove any of your claims and are trying to shift the burden of proof as a result.
> 
> Show me that Preta Path cannot absorb chakra like canon says it can.



 It couldn't against Mei's poverty Lava Release that forced Madara to dodge and use Susanoo.

 Check. 




> Nagato has quite a lot of reaction feats and his crippled feats were pretty good. He has a Senju body to top it off.



 Is this why he got pierced by Itachi's poverty Totsuka blade that Orochimaru laughed at.

 Check. 





> All this tells me is you don't know what Shinra Tensei is.
> Force that repels all>a shock wave from a sword.



 Force couldn't even destroy small Katsuyu's while PS Shock Waves sliced a Mountain Range like butter. Hell, his ST only managed to push Base Bee back and couldn't even push KN6 Naruto back.

 Check. 





> Except you have no proof whatsoever that PS can do anything to ST.
> We've got manga and databook evidence showing that Shinra Tensei can repel all jutsu.



 Is that why Shinra Tensei failed to repel KN6 Naruto?

 Check. 



> You're just a poster who claims PS can do it without any reason. You're not going to be taken seriously without evidence on your part.



 You've provided no evidence for your baseless claims. How is Nagato going to survive against an onslaught of multiple Susanoo Swords which were thrown in just one panel against Buddha?

 Check. 




> Preta Path has no limit. Lord knows where you get the notion that it has a limit. That's one thing wrong with your facts: they're lacking. No-one understands where you're getting them from such as a shock wave beating a force that repels all and an absorption jutsu with no limit suddenly having one.



 Shinra Tensei couldn't repel KN6 Naruto. Hell, it failed to repel a bunch of a Weakened Base Naruto's clones.

 If Shinra Tensei was so powerful, then why doesn't Madara use it as it repels all jutsu. 

 Preta Path from Nagato apparently couldn't absorb Amaterasu. 

 Check. 



> Using a jutsu Hashirama made to counter the jutsu as your point only strengthens mine. The jutsu has no limit hence Hashirama invented a jutsu to beat it.





 Is this why Hashirama used Wood Dragon prior to even knowing Preta Path even existed? 

 Check. 



> Also the Kurama point just shows you're reaching hard. The dragon needs to touch the person to absorb. Preta Path doesn't. The dragon needs to hold onto Kurama to absorb, Preta Path doesn't.





 Preta Path can't absorb Kurama without physical contact either. Now you're clearly trolling. Any feats of this so called Preta Path being able to latch onto other jutsus from a far range?




> And Madara's power with the EMS is too weak to touch the powerful tool that is the Rinnegan.



 Yet no evidence was presented that suggests Madara's EMS is inferior to Nagato's Rinnegan. Such a poor baseless claim.



> You see, this would mean a lot more if you actually had actual facts to back it up.
> 
> As it stands PS and all Ninjutsu are useless due to Preta Path. All Madara's remaining options are useless due to ST, Asura and the other Paths.



 Is that why Preta Path barely absorbed Oodama Rasengan or couldn't even be used to absorb Mei's piss poor Lava Release Technique?

 While we're on the subject, can you explain to me why Nagato failed to absorb Amaterasu with his Preta Path while Madara could do it with relative ease without his Preta Path? 

 Checkmate.  

 You can't recover from that last statement.

 Nice try doe.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 19, 2015)

> Shinra Tensei would also ignore the mass of Perfect Susanoo which you know is downright false. Considering Bansho Tenin also works practically the same way, we can conclude that Madara would not be pulled out of his Susanoo.



Shinra tensei indeed is going to affect Susano'o. But there are something that u forgot:

Databook 4, translation:


> Pain Tendou uses this jutsu, utilizing the generated from the users hands repulsive (gravity) force to repel targets away. The number of targets that can be repelled and their size are irrelevant . In addition by stopping the utilization of other Pain paths the amount of chakra put in the jutsu, its strength and area of effect can be greatly increased. With one strike of its power entire Konoha no sato (Konoha village) was turned to smoldering ash. But after this jutsu has been triggered there is a small five second window it can't be used again. *The originating repulsion force generated by the power of all creation”shinra obiki” (something that binds all together,so likely gravitation) forces its targets to collide together with a great force and put out additional damage, combined together with the initial force (shock wave)* it puts up even more damage. Only those who can manipulate all chakra transformation properties (seishitsu) legendary “Rinnegan” wielders are allowed to posses this jutsu that has all rights to be called “crystally perfect”.
> Picture: Its repulsion force is so strong that even ninjutsu and taijutsu are equally ineffective against this jutsu, with an unexpected discharge of the invisible force, it is very easy to catch opponents off guard .
> So it seems that shinra tensei uses natural gravitational force, and only the one who has all chakra transformation (including yin-yang) can manipulate natural gravity field (shinra obiki).




Shinra tensei isn't only GRAVITY. It's the manipulation OF REPULSIVE FORCES + SHOCKWAVE. But, if the user doesn't use the shockwave, yes, he can pass through Susano'o.

Susano'o can't defend the user from non-physical attacks, sound based attacks and polen are examples of that. If it could defend from sound particles, I could agree with you... But that's not the case.

And well, again, lost my time coming here. U say that we are overating Nagato, but it's completely the opposite.
Ur putting Nagato at a low level then he is.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 19, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Shinra tensei indeed is going to affect Susano'o. But there are something that u forgot:
> 
> Databook 4, translation:
> 
> ...



Yeah - repultion force which is created by Narutoverse's analogue of gravity. It will affect Susanoo for sure. Shinra Tensei affected chakra before (KCM naruto's FRS, 8 Tails TBB and Itachi's Yasaka Magatama). Do the math.

Susanoo is affected by gravity anyway, just like other jutsu's.

Its not the opposite - you are overrating Nagato a lot. He is not on EMS Madara's level.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 19, 2015)

> Yeah - repultion force which is created by Narutoverse's analogue of gravity. It will affect Susanoo for sure. Shinra Tensei affected chakra before (KCM naruto's FRS, 8 Tails TBB and Itachi's Yasaka Magatama). Do the math.
> 
> Susanoo is affected by gravity anyway, just like other jutsu's.



Ur misunderstand... Shinra Tensei INDEED IS GOING TO HIT SUSANO'O, because he also uses a shock wave. It's like databook says, if it was only repulsive force the name of technique was "Shira Obiki". What makes she calls "Shinra Tensei" it's the fact that there are a shock wave combine. That's why SHE AFFECTS chakra aswell. 

However, Banshou Ten'in IT'S JUST ATTRATIVE FORCE. I already TOLD YOU that TENDO PATH was BEHIND Shurado Path , LOOK THIS IMAGE:

Link removed

Head with head, legs with legs, body with body. I made that line between Tendo and Kakashi AND EVERY ONE OF THEM PASS THROUGH SHURADO, what proves that THEY ARE BEHIND EACH OTHER in the prespective of Kakashi's eyes. 

Stop runnin from my images.

But, time for the finally checkmate.
*EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*

Water is something that suffer GRAVITY. Nagato attracted a rock that were INSIDE the watter. 

Watter suffers Gravity, Rock suffers Gravity. Nagato controls gravity.

Susano'o suffers Gravity, Madara suffers Gravity. Nagato controls gravity.

If you're going to say that in the manga that rock didn't came from that river, when YOU CAN SEE that the rock was wet, then THERE'S your answer.

Sorry Madara fans.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 19, 2015)

> Ur misunderstand... Shinra Tensei INDEED IS GOING TO HIT SUSANO'O, because he also uses a shock wave. It's like databook says, if it was only repulsive force the name of technique was "Shira Obiki". What makes she calls "Shinra Tensei" it's the fact that there are a shock wave combine. That's why SHE AFFECTS chakra aswell.
> 
> However, Banshou Ten'in IT'S JUST ATTRATIVE FORCE. I already TOLD YOU that TENDO PATH was BEHIND Shurado Path , LOOK THIS IMAGE:
> 
> ...



Susanoo is a chakra mass with weight. Thats why it will be effected by Nagato's attraction and repulsion. The fact the user of Susanoo can go through it doesnt mean it has no mass and is not effected by Shinra Obiki, which Nagato can manipulate. The Susanoo user can go through Susanoo and literally fly in it. But still, the Susanoo is effected by Shinra Obiki, just like the other jutsu's, chakra etc.

Maybe i should give you other scans where it is visible Shurado is not on the way of Deva's attraction? Dont you think Shurado could move away off-panel, because later it is seen it wasnt on the way of Deva's technique?

Maybe you should look much more attentively in your scans before posting them?

Anime is not canon. 

And yeah, the rock was wet, but we cant see the moment where Nagato pulles that rock out. Maybe the water was pulled with the rock as well when Nagato was pulling it from the water. 

You got countered once again.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 19, 2015)

It's even stated that one Path can only use one specific technique.

 Using that, it's obvious that all of those techniques uses gravity, so thus, the force being used should be very similar. Since Deva Path can only use ST, CT, and Bansho Tenin, it's obvious that ST and Bansho Tenin's forces are very similar to Chibaku Tensei which failed to pull Itachi out of his V2 Susanoo.

 Checkmate.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 21, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Too bad we dont see the moment when the Dragon got Madara: 2
> 
> By the way, *"i'll negate jutsu you are currently using to drain all of that chakra!"*.
> 
> ...


Again, he says it'll sap his chakra to negate the jutsu. It's not truly countering it but rather the user to indirectly effect the jutsu. And even if that wasn't the case it would pose as a weakness not a limit, as it wasn't a the fact that it was to much chakra to absorb as you claim with other techs.

As if all characters exploit all their abilities in battle.
No it's up to you to successfully prove that Preta has can't absorb any jutsu, especially when that was stated in the DB have fun going against that. Only you would go with your own word rather than what the DB says. You can't contradict it. The Wood Dragon situation doesn't prove as a limit it proves as a weakness. Hashi sapped Madara's chakra to render the whole technique useless, as he stated. Never was it stated that he attempted to absorb it but to no avail.

Chopping the top of a mountain does not compare to expunging all of Konoha. When you destroy all those buildings and trees in one shot and leave nothing left especially when the feat came from a path that was getting chakra channeled to him by a far away emaciated Nagato.
Obvioisly CST doesn't pierce.
If Shurado wasn't in front why did Kakashi get pulled to Shurado's blade rather then Tendo himself?

How is that even relevant?
That's irrelevant as well.
Because, you are stating claims you can't back up. Both have done great feats you can't compare them and automatically say that Madara has greater chakra than Nagato, and vice versa.
Oh, and your word doesn't have a higher value than the DB by the way. You can't claim things then provide evidence that prove nothing at all and automatically say it's a fact. Evidently debates don't work like that.
Like i said before the shockwave going through numerous Cerberuses and through a Nagato who can hold up an ST barrier is spurious.
That would have been plausible if, He wasn't able to summon them multi-headed. So multiple Cerberus are pierced and Nagato can still hold up the ST barrier which if it does still cause damage it would be minimum.
Still the fact that a cripple was able to pull that off is ridiculously impressive. It's only a testament to what a Prime Nagato can do.
Of course not, Madara was by no means an idiot, but when your arrogance gets the best of you, you can act moronic. But even then Madara puts almost everyone below him. He wasn't the least bit weary about confronting all the tailed beast. He wasn't concerned about putting 100% Kurama under his control, or worried about confronting possibly 2 Kage level Shinobi (Muu and Onoki). So i have my doubts about him immediately bringing out PS straight from the jump especially when it's considered rash and way out of Character for Nagato to hop out a CST at the start of the match.

Well yea, of course it's easy to "counter argument" when you provide evidence that don't prove your claim. If you ask me that's rather simple.

It's not typical to bring out your strongest move when you can't see some one. I doubt you really think Something as Large as PS is coming out because he can't see his opponent. On top of that if PS comes out he still can't see his opponent, and in a match like this it's out of character for PS to slash everywhere until he destroys the surroundings and catches the chameleon. Plus the Cham can move to where he already slashed if it actually got that drastic which it definitely won't. Madara would most likely attempt to discover his location and that attempt would cost him as a boss sized ST would send him long distance like phone calls.
Nothing short of PS can harm Nagato, and he can just absorb it and a boss sized ST would send Susanoo flying as well.
i never asked who i asked when.
Send PS flying and absorb it nothing suggest that it can render PS useless like Wood Dragon because it can't zap the users chakra. And like i said that's a weakness not a limit. You fail to provide evidence of Preta absorption not being able to completely absorb something, that didn't counter the tech by absorbing chakra from the user of course. Their is nothing in the Manga that suggests that Preta can't absorb all types of chakra. especially when the DB specifically states it has the ability to absorb all Ninjutsu.
Maybe you can provide evidence that Preta wasn't stated to be able to absorb all Ninjutsu. That's evidence right there and you still fail to counter it.
Like i previously said Wood Dragon poses as a weakness not as a limit.
oh, and please provide why your word should be chosen over the DB, humor me.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 21, 2015)

I'm finding it very hard to see the points for Madara when a lot of them involve denying a lot of manga facts about the Rinnegan.



NarutoX28 said:


> This doesn't refute our argument considering you didn't even try to show us how it works.
> 
> Check.



Read the manga and databook. By this point it is established how the jutsu works. If you don't know how it works, then it means your claim isn't a good one as it is lacking a key component.


> It couldn't against Mei's poverty Lava Release that forced Madara to dodge and use Susanoo.
> 
> Check.



You didn't read the part where Madara said the jutsu wasn't worth absorbing, obviously.



> Is this why he got pierced by Itachi's poverty Totsuka blade that Orochimaru laughed at.
> 
> Check.



You mean the one Kabuto controlled that didn't know of Nagato's ability to sense chakra? Sensing Susanoo would have been a signal to get up the Preta Path barrier before Susanoo struck.




> Force couldn't even destroy small Katsuyu's while PS Shock Waves sliced a Mountain Range like butter. Hell, his ST only managed to push Base Bee back and couldn't even push KN6 Naruto back.
> 
> Check.



You're comparing a God Realm Shinra Tensei to a Nagato using a fake Rinnegan. 

Bee has proved his durability, so it is a pro for Bee. The KN6 falls apart because it uses a Pain Shinra Tensei when Nagato's chakra isn't totally focused on that distanced Path. That ST is significantly weaker than what the real one can do.

That's why KCM Naruto i.e. *KN9* was just blown away when a reanimated Nagato with a fake Rinnegan used a ST.




> You've provided no evidence for your baseless claims. How is Nagato going to survive against an onslaught of multiple Susanoo Swords which were thrown in just one panel against Buddha?
> 
> Check.



The claims I made are supported by the manga: Shinra Tensei, or simple flight would do the job. 

You need to prove that the Susanoo swords are something worth worrying about to someone with a Senju body which has Rinnegan enhancements like God Realm flight and Demon Realm mods.



> If Shinra Tensei was so powerful, then why doesn't Madara use it as it repels all jutsu.



What did Madara use to break Hashirama's seals when he came back to life? 

Also Madara never needed to use Shinra Tensei.

But you still haven't proved that things like Susanoo's swords aren't going to be fodderised.



> Preta Path from Nagato apparently couldn't absorb Amaterasu.



You mean the Edo Tensei which had a seal banning it from reacting to other Edo Tensei's attacks?

Of course he didn't, Kabuto's seal didn't let him react to his fellow Edo Tensei. There's a reason Madara absorbed Amaterasu easily, using the same power. 



> Is this why Hashirama used Wood Dragon prior to even knowing Preta Path even existed?



He used a different wood dragon than the one you're thinking off against Hashirama. Go ahead and compare them.



> Preta Path can't absorb Kurama without physical contact either. Now you're clearly trolling. Any feats of this so called Preta Path being able to latch onto other jutsus from a far range?



Its been shown countless times that whatever touches the user of the Preta Path, or the Preta Path's barrier just get absorbed.

You need to show me different. 

Also no-one knows where you got absorbing Kurama from. 



> Yet no evidence was presented that suggests Madara's EMS is inferior to Nagato's Rinnegan. Such a poor baseless claim.



Except Nagato's Rinnegan is Madara's Rinnegan and Rinnegan is the stage above the EMS.



> What you're saying is the equivalent of saying it is baseless to assume that the MS is weaker than the EMS.
> 
> Is that why Preta Path barely absorbed Oodama Rasengan or couldn't even be used to absorb Mei's piss poor Lava Release Technique?
> 
> ...



Barely absorbed? Read the manga. 

A lot of this is showing me that you didn't actually read the manga. Why? A lot of what you're asking has already been addressed in the manga.



> You can't recover from that last statement.
> 
> Nice try doe.



There was nothing to recover from. You didn't prove anything. All you've proved is that the stance against Nagato involves denying manga facts, or not even considering manga facts.

All this leads people to infer is that if you need to deny manga facts to argue for Madara, then considering manga facts means that Nagato wins.

The Rinnegan is just too much for a mere EMS user to handle. That's why every EMS user obtained the Rinnegan.


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## Pair (Feb 21, 2015)

Nagato could hardly handle Kyuubi, what makes him stand a chance against EMS Madara? The one that treats Kyuubi as a pet.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 21, 2015)

Pair said:


> Nagato could hardly handle Kyuubi, what makes him stand a chance against EMS Madara? The one that treats Kyuubi as a pet.



There's a big difference between Pain whose a considerable distance from an emaciated Nagato and Nagato (prime) himself.


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## Pair (Feb 21, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There's a big difference between Pain whose a considerable distance from an emaciated Nagato and Nagato (prime) himself.



The difference is much bigger comparing pain to 6-tail Kyuubi. 

The difference is even bigger comparing Nagato to EMS Madara and his Perfect Susanoo.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 21, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Read the manga and databook. By this point it is established how the jutsu works. If you don't know how it works, then it means your claim isn't a good one as it is lacking a key component.



 Naw you provided the argument that it's limitless. Now provide the evidence. 




> You didn't read the part where Madara said the jutsu wasn't worth absorbing, obviously.




2

 He never claimed that. The fact that he had to dodge it, means that statement in context implied that that jutsu was too threatening just to take it head on.




> You mean the one Kabuto controlled that didn't know of Nagato's ability to sense chakra? Sensing Susanoo would have been a signal to get up the Preta Path barrier before Susanoo struck.



 Scan of that? He was completely aware that Nagato was able to sense the pressure building up in Itachi's eye when he was about to use Amaterasu. 

 Good, but Nagato can't absorb Bijuu level chakra. Not when Madara can't absorb Mei's Lava Release.




> You're comparing a God Realm Shinra Tensei to a Nagato using a fake Rinnegan.
> 
> Bee has proved his durability, so it is a pro for Bee. The KN6 falls apart because it uses a Pain Shinra Tensei when Nagato's chakra isn't totally focused on that distanced Path. That ST is significantly weaker than what the real one can do.



 Scan of Nagato not being able to scan when he knew Nagato could sense pressure building up for Itachi's Amaterasu please.

 Nagato > Pain obviously yet you completely ignore that all of Nagato's chakra went to that Path at that point in time. But really, that was an example that ST can't repel everything if there's enough force resisting it. 

 Since when did Base Bee have durability that can tank a PS Sword Slash? That's completely absurd. The 2 times he did get Rocket Fisted by Jugo, he just Shunshin'd to avoid most of the impact. Besides that he has little to no durability feats.




> That's why KCM Naruto i.e. *KN9* was just blown away when a reanimated Nagato with a fake Rinnegan used a ST.



 Even if he was blown away, he clearly only took minimal damage. KCM durability is shat on by Imperfect Susanoo's durability, especially when KCM Naruto took some damage from Obito's Base Jin.




> The claims I made are supported by the manga: Shinra Tensei, or simple flight would do the job.



 Which failed to put down Itachi, Base Bee, and KCM Naruto, all of which are fodder compared to EMS Madara.



> You need to prove that the Susanoo swords are something worth worrying about to someone with a Senju body which has Rinnegan enhancements like God Realm flight and Demon Realm mods.



 And what did those do against Itachi, Base Bee, and KCM Naruto? That's right, completely hard countered.

 Susanoo Swords are clearly worth worrying about as he could summon dozens in a single panel as shown against Buddha. Nagato has nothing to defend himself against that.



> What did Madara use to break Hashirama's seals when he came back to life?
> 
> Also Madara never needed to use Shinra Tensei.
> 
> But you still haven't proved that things like Susanoo's swords aren't going to be fodderised.



 Madara never used ST against a paralyzed Hashirama unless you can show me the scan where he did.

 Madara never needed ST, but needed Perfect Susanoo? Hmmm, so Madara resorted to Perfect Susanoo instead of using ST to repel all of the Kage's jutsus? This means ST cannot repel all jutsus and that Susanoo is far superior. If it wasn't, why would he use it against Hashirama when he could've just repelled his Wood Golem?





> You mean the Edo Tensei which had a seal banning it from reacting to other Edo Tensei's attacks?
> 
> Of course he didn't, Kabuto's seal didn't let him react to his fellow Edo Tensei. There's a reason Madara absorbed Amaterasu easily, using the same power.



 You need to provide a scan to prove that. That doesn't refute the fact that Itachi struck the blind spots of Gedo Mazo for a reason. If Nagato was unable to react to Itachi's attacks, then it clearly would not have mattered, but apparently it did.





> He used a different wood dragon than the one you're thinking off against Hashirama. Go ahead and compare them.



 You have yet to prove that. It still doesn't refute the fact that Hashirama had no knowledge on Preta Path, so thus, his Wood Dragon was not invented to counter Preta Path. You can't deny it. That's a complete fact.





> Its been shown countless times that whatever touches the user of the Preta Path, or the Preta Path's barrier just get absorbed.



 Really? Is that why Madara refused to use it on Mei's Lava Release?



> You need to show me different.
> 
> Also no-one knows where you got absorbing Kurama from.



 I provided evidence that there is no limit yet you haven't refuted it. Go reread the last few pages and come back to me when you're ready to refute this.

 No one knows where you got the whole idea that Preta Path doesn't need to touch the object it's absorbing to absorb it. Preta Path does need physical contact to absorb Kurama, similar to how Wood Dragon needed physical contact with the object it's wanting to absorb like you stated. This is why Preta Path needed physical contact with SM Naruto to absorb his chakra.

 But yeah, claim you don't know where I got my evidence. It's certainly not helping your argument.





> Except Nagato's Rinnegan is Madara's Rinnegan and Rinnegan is the stage above the EMS.



 Haha, yet Nagato can't use it as efficiently as Madara can and even Madara used his EMS powers on SM Hashirama instead of his Rinnegan powers.





> Barely absorbed? Read the manga.
> 
> A lot of this is showing me that you didn't actually read the manga. Why? A lot of what you're asking has already been addressed in the manga.



 He did. In no other showing has Preta Path leaned back to absorb a ninjutsu, especially when it took 3 panels while the other jutsus he's absorbed hasn't shown that. It's obvious that that jutsu was too much for him to handle as there was too much chakra condensed in that attack.





> There was nothing to recover from. You didn't prove anything. All you've proved is that the stance against Nagato involves denying manga facts, or not even considering manga facts.



 I proved plenty. It's you who provided no scans to support your argument.



> All this leads people to infer is that if you need to deny manga facts to argue for Madara, then considering manga facts means that Nagato wins.
> 
> The Rinnegan is just too much for a mere EMS user to handle. That's why every EMS user obtained the Rinnegan.



 Madara only needed the Rinnegan to proceed with his plan, not for actual sheer power. That's why you hardly see him use his Rinnegan against Hashirama as it's completely useless. This is also why Sasuke's Rinnegan was mostly used for his Rinnegan Transportation, not for the powers that Nagato was able to use.

 But hey, this argument is about Nagato's Rinnegan being superior to EMS Madara's and yet you failed to give evidence why.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

> Again, he says it'll sap his chakra to negate the jutsu. It's not truly countering it but rather the user to indirectly effect the jutsu. And even if that wasn't the case it would pose as a weakness not a limit, as it wasn't a the fact that it was to much chakra to absorb as you claim with other techs.



Hashirama clearly countered Preta's absorbtion by its Dragon's own absorbtion. If Madara could absorb it, he would have done it. Because Hashirama was *slowly* absorbing his chakra. It wasnt absorbed to the point Madara couldnt use Preta Path in the first place. He couldnt absorb the Dragon with Preta Path, *although it is a ninjutsu*. "That Wood Dragon will slowly sap your chakra... It'll negate the ninjtsu you're currently using to drain all of that chakra". In other words, he'll negate Preta Path that Madara uses to drain The Wood Dragon with Wood Dragons own absorbtion. Wood Dragon countered Preta Path. And thats a proof Preta Path is not limitless at all. Thats also a proof Preta Path cant absorb any ninjutsu there is. 

So your point has been clearly countered. Preta Path has its limits. But your fanboism has no limits. Well, i can repeatedly counter you all day long. Just warning you.



> As if all characters exploit all their abilities in battle.
> No it's up to you to successfully prove that Preta has can't absorb any jutsu, especially when that was stated in the DB have fun going against that. Only you would go with your own word rather than what the DB says. You can't contradict it. The Wood Dragon situation doesn't prove as a limit it proves as a weakness. Hashi sapped Madara's chakra to render the whole technique useless, as he stated. Never was it stated that he attempted to absorb it but to no avail.
> 
> Chopping the top of a mountain does not compare to expunging all of Konoha. When you destroy all those buildings and trees in one shot and leave nothing left especially when the feat came from a path that was getting chakra channeled to him by a far away emaciated Nagato.
> ...



We deside how powerfull character, or his abilites are, by characters feats and canon statements. Thats how it works. 

And i wanna make something clear:

1. You made a statement Preta Path is limitless and can absorb PS. So it is up to you to prove that. Now, there is literally *no* proof Preta Path is limitless. Nagato has no feats with his Preta Path to suggest that. Madara has no feats with his Preta Path to suggest that as well. Furthermore - his Preta Path was countered by another ninjutsu's absorbtion. Read what i wrote up there at the beginning of my post.
2. Thats a right thing to debate in that way. Something that has not been proved *cant* be taken as truth. 
3. Destroying some buildings, trees and some earth is far weaker than cutting mountains in one swing and cutting Hashirama's chakra constructs. Plus, ST was resisted by Katsuya. PS's shockwave is clearly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ST.
4. That statement was countered by logic and by the manga itself, lol. 
5. Deva Path manipulated gravity in such a way that Kakashi's clone will be pulled to the blade. Its that simple. 



> How is that even relevant?
> That's irrelevant as well.
> Because, you are stating claims you can't back up. Both have done great feats you can't compare them and automatically say that Madara has greater chakra than Nagato, and vice versa.
> Oh, and your word doesn't have a higher value than the DB by the way. You can't claim things then provide evidence that prove nothing at all and automatically say it's a fact. Evidently debates don't work like that.
> ...



I can back up my claims. Preta Path was countered by Wood Dragon, so it is not limitless.

You, on the other hand, *cant prove* Preta Path has no limits. You cant back up your words. You made a statement - it is up to you to prove that statement to be the truth. You cant do that. 

Madara can use tailed beast level chakra construct that has destructive capabilities superior to CST and CT for long time periods without tiring out. Nagato was bleeding from CT. And he was tired because of CST. On top of that, Madara could fight for the whole day and he has Indra's chakra. His chakra reserves are clearly superior to those of Nagato. 

Nagato's ST has no feats to suggest he can deflect PS's shockwave. Cerberus has no feats to suggest it can withstand PS's shockwave. Plus, i have a quastion - are you sure there will be lots of Cerberuses when Madara starts to PS swing around?

You have to prove Madara's arrogance will be there after he sees Nagato's Rinnegan.

And as if Nagato can kill Madara before he creates PS. The only problem for imperfect Susanoo is CT, which is countered by PS with no problem at all.

He was an Edo. And when he fought all tailed beasts, he had Hashirama's Sage Mode that makes the user allmost immortal. Muu and Onoki are below him. And he wasnt holding himself back when he fought Naruto with only 50% of Kurama's chakra.



> Well yea, of course it's easy to "counter argument" when you provide evidence that don't prove your claim. If you ask me that's rather simple.
> 
> It's not typical to bring out your strongest move when you can't see some one. I doubt you really think Something as Large as PS is coming out because he can't see his opponent. On top of that if PS comes out he still can't see his opponent, and in a match like this it's out of character for PS to slash everywhere until he destroys the surroundings and catches the chameleon. Plus the Cham can move to where he already slashed if it actually got that drastic which it definitely won't. Madara would most likely attempt to discover his location and that attempt would cost him as a boss sized ST would send him long distance like phone calls.
> Nothing short of PS can harm Nagato, and he can just absorb it and a boss sized ST would send Susanoo flying as well.
> ...



Did i counter your arguement about Preta Path? Yes i did.

Did i counter your arguement about Deva Path? Yes i did.

Because i provided facts and feats you cant counter.

Something as large as PS can go out when he cant see his opponent he has The Rinnegan. PS swings will help Madara to find Nagato, because his swing will send Nagato and his Chameleon flying away, like the Gokage, for example. And i also dont remember Nagato summoning Chameleon right at the beginning of the fight. And it will take a time to summon.

Boss sized ST cant do anything to Madara's imperfect Susanoo, let alone PS, which he wont even move with his strongest ST.

Also, imperfect Susanoo can counter any technique Nagato has, except CT. Madara will know where Nagato is if he uses CT. And Madara has EMS precognition to know what attack will hit him, from what direction, so he can fidn Nagato with it. 

There is no proof Preta Path can absorb PS. You cant prove that. So stop bringing that here - it wont help you in this debate anyway. Nagato has no feats with Preta Path to suggest he can absorb PS, or even Madara's imperfect Susanoo. 

Thats a limit. Wood Dragon is a ninjutsu, yet Preta Path couldnt absorb it. So, the Manga already made your fantasy useless. Thats just your fantasy, nothing more. 

DB doesnt states it can absorb any ninjutsu no matter how powerfull it is. And that DB statement has been countered anyway. By logic and manga. 

You made a statement that Preta Path is limitless and can absorb PS - so it is up to you to prove that. Thats how the debate works.



> I'm finding it very hard to see the points for Madara when a lot of them involve denying a lot of manga facts about the Rinnegan.



I am accepting the facts about the Rinnegan and Nagato's feats. And i am not overrating him, as you do. 

And you havent repplied to me.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Feb 22, 2015)

Watter suffers gravity and she didn't got pulled with the rock. Shurado path suffers gravity and didn't got pull when he was on the middle of kakashi and Tendo path.

Susano'o it's just another body that suffers gravity effects, he can't block banshou ten'in. IF Madara has fast reactions, he can use his own susano'o to hold him from getting pulled, BUT he can't protect himself from missels, cannons from Shurado Path.

Like I said, this match it's pretty easy just because he can pull madara. If he couldn't, the match was hard, and he could lose (6/10). 

Madara is in a different level, but he gets countered by the rinnegan (rinnegan > FMS), and the prove is nagato gravity control.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

> Watter suffers gravity and she didn't got pulled with the rock. Shurado path suffers gravity and didn't got pull when he was on the middle of kakashi and Tendo path.



Countered. We cant see the moment of rock-pulling in the manga. ANd he could use little-ranged Banshou Ten'in to pull it out. 

Shurado wasnt i the range of Deva Path. He wasnt in front of his arm, with which he performed the technique. See the scans.



> Susano'o it's just another body that suffers gravity effects, he can't block banshou ten'in. IF Madara has fast reactions, he can use his own susano'o to hold him from getting pulled, BUT he can't protect himself from missels, cannons from Shurado Path.



Yeah - thats why it will be pulled as well. 

Shurado Path's cannons cant damage Madara's imperfect Susanoo.



> Like I said, this match it's pretty easy just because he can pull madara. If he couldn't, the match was hard, and he could lose (6/10).



No it is not. And Madara can pull out PS from the start, against which any Nagato's trick is completely useless. 



> Madara is in a different level, but he gets countered by the rinnegan (rinnegan > FMS), and the prove is nagato gravity control.



It doesnt matter that Rinnegan >>>> EMS. Madara >>>> Nagato. And thats why he wins. Nagato's gravity control wont pull out Madara (you cant prove he can do that, your every arguement has been countered). And he cant do anything to Madara's PS, which he can create from the start, because he is not an idiot to underestimate someone with The Rinnegan.


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## pluuuuffff (Feb 22, 2015)

Did u see the sea getting pull against naruto, or just a rock?

Then, the water didn't get pulled  

Also, do u think that putting his arm or not does any difference? He can use it without his arms too, and i can show u.

Sorry, but nagato wins <3


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## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Did u see the sea getting pull against naruto, or just a rock?
> 
> Then, the water didn't get pulled
> 
> ...



1. That rock could have its part outside of water. 

2. I have never seen him using Banshou Ten'in without moving his arms. 

3. Madara can use PS from the start, especially when he sees The Rinnegan in Nagato's ayesockets. PS is different from the other Susanoo vertions. Even Kakashi, whil using Kamui inside of his PS, wasnt phased through it.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 22, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Did u see the sea getting pull against naruto, or just a rock?
> 
> Then, the water didn't get pulled
> 
> ...



 Then why don't you show us then ....


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I am accepting the facts about the Rinnegan and Nagato's feats. And i am not overrating him, as you do.
> 
> And you havent repplied to me.



Aren't you the guy who still thinks Preta Path can't absorb Ninjutsu and that Susanoo's slashes are somehow can overpower Shinra Tensei?

It is hard to argue with you and the other guy when you two clearly deny a lot of manga facts about the Rinnegan. To you considering the facts are overrating Nagato, but yet exaggerating the effects of EMS Madara's capabilities aren't. 

The reason I'm not putting as much effort with my arguments here is that if by this point, that being the end of the manga, you still don't know how some of the powers in this series worked. Then there really is no point in taking the discussion much further as either: you clearly didn't read the relevant databook/manga text. Or you didn't, and still don't, get how they work. 

Either way there's no point. The facts are there, which show that even a Nagato Rinnegan is > the EMS. At this point is your choice on whether you want to accept it.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Aren't you the guy who still thinks Preta Path can't absorb Ninjutsu and that Susanoo's slashes are somehow can overpower Shinra Tensei?
> 
> It is hard to argue with you and the other guy when you two clearly deny a lot of manga facts about the Rinnegan. To you considering the facts are overrating Nagato, but yet exaggerating the effects of EMS Madara's capabilities aren't.
> 
> ...



1. Rinnegan can absorb ninjutsu, but it has its limits. Nagato has *no feats* with his Preta Path to suggest that he can absorb PS. And Madara's *superior* Preta Path got countered by *a ninjutsu* - Hashirama's Wood Dragon. That's a manga fact. 
2. Nagato has *no feats* with his ST to suggest he can repell something as powerfull as PS's shockwave, which can easily cut mountains. He has never repelled something remotively close to PS's shockwave.
3. There is no proofs that Nagato's Preta Path is limitless, that he can repell anything with his ST etc. No facts at all. You keep writing some nonsense. Thats all. You are writing something you cant back up until this very moment. Do you have Databook statements, or manga statements? Facts? Feats? Bring them here. Then, i'll admit i am wrong.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 1. Rinnegan can absorb ninjutsu, but it has its limits. Nagato has *no feats* with his Preta Path to suggest that he can absorb PS. And Madara's *superior* Preta Path got countered by *a ninjutsu* - Hashirama's Wood Dragon. That's a manga fact.
> 2. Nagato has *no feats* with his ST to suggest he can repell something as powerfull as PS's shockwave, which can easily cut mountains. He has never repelled something remotively close to PS's shockwave.
> 3. There is no proofs that Nagato's Preta Path is limitless, that he can repell anything with his ST etc. No facts at all. You keep writing some nonsense. Thats all. You are writing something you cant back up until this very moment. Do you have Databook statements, or manga statements? Facts? Feats? Bring them here. Then, i'll admit i am wrong.


Son, tf you talking about we gave you DB statements already. It said Preta Path can absorb any ninjutsu.
Now admit your wrong.


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## Euraj (Feb 23, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Son, tf you talking about we gave you DB statements already. It said Preta Path can absorb any ninjutsu.
> Now admit your wrong.


You're right, it can. 

And I suppose he could absorb all of PS if Madara waited for a few minutes while he did instead of just hitting him with a few slashes while he tries to take the entire construct.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 23, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Son, tf you talking about we gave you DB statements already. It said Preta Path can absorb any ninjutsu.
> Now admit your wrong.



 Then why didn't Sasuke use it against Naruto's Kurama Avatar?

 Check.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Then why didn't Sasuke use it against Naruto's Kurama Avatar?
> 
> Check.


How is that even a good argument? Especially seeing as how i don't recall Sasuke ever using Preta Path. On top of that it's like saying why didn't Juudara use PS. It's no where near a good argument because just because people don't use certain moves, that doesn't prove anything about the technique's ability.

Oh and im curious on how you plan to go against the DB, because your word is milleniums away from ever becoming as significant.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 24, 2015)

> Son, tf you talking about we gave you DB statements already. It said Preta Path can absorb any ninjutsu.
> Now admit your wrong.



Only 1 DB statement which has been countered by:

1. Manga itself. Madara's Preta Path couldnt absorb *a ninjutsu* - Wood Dragon. That means it has its limits.
2. Common sense. 

I think you should read it more attentively. 

That DB statement rendered useless in this debate already. And Manga canon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DB canon. 

Now admit you are wrong. 



> Oh btw Nagato beats Madara lol



PS - GG.


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## BurningVegeta (Feb 24, 2015)

Honestly. The only way Madara is winning this is if he use taijutsu and we know WITH some luck alongside some serious thought-out tactics. If he doesn't bring his S-game, Madara get's shot in the face.

Nagato will absorb the Chakra construct that is Susanoo. Whilst doing so, he can be firing shots at Madara. 

Now going back to my first sentence, if Madara starts firing air with the slashes of his sword at Nagato. Nagato could face some difficulty but even so, he still has his powers over gravitation.

Nagato wins here, Madara is outmatched, stronger on paper but when it comes down to it and the sunny days are over Nagato defeats him due to versatility.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 24, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Only 1 DB statement which has been countered by:
> 
> 1. Manga itself. Madara's Preta Path couldnt absorb *a ninjutsu* - Wood Dragon. That means it has its limits.
> 2. Common sense.
> ...


Not being able to do something and being stopped from doing something are two different things. Being stop from doing something doesn't show having limits at all.

Not sure why your having a hard time comprehending the Manga even after it has ended but you should take your own advice.

Accept not even Manga has placed a limit on Preta. So at this point in time im sure your just letting your mouth run. And with that being said, DB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your words.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 25, 2015)

> Not being able to do something and being stopped from doing something are two different things. Being stop from doing something doesn't show having limits at all.



No, it was clearly not able to absorb it. Madara could absorb Wood Dragon with his Preta Path, since it was slowly sapping his chakra. He could use his Preta Path because he had enough chakra to do that, but he couldnt absorb Wood Dragon. Thats the thing. Also, you should re-read Hashirama's line in that instance. 



> Not sure why your having a hard time comprehending the Manga even after it has ended but you should take your own advice.



I did read it attentively. And there was nothing to suggest Preta Path has no limits.



> Accept not even Manga has placed a limit on Preta. So at this point in time im sure your just letting your mouth run. And with that being said, DB>>> your words.



Manga >>> DB and your opinion. It was shown in the manga that Preta Path has its limits. And there is nothing in that DB statement that will help you. It has already been countered. By common sense and manga.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 25, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> No, it was clearly not able to absorb it. Madara could absorb Wood Dragon with his Preta Path, since it was slowly sapping his chakra. He could use his Preta Path because he had enough chakra to do that, but he couldnt absorb Wood Dragon. Thats the thing. Also, you should re-read Hashirama's line in that instance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just curious, if Wood Dragon wasn't wrapped around Madara, do you think he could have absorbed it?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Just curious, if Wood Dragon wasn't wrapped around Madara, do you think he could have absorbed it?



 Likewise, Preta Path cannot absorb Wood Dragon without any physical contact either.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Likewise, Preta Path cannot absorb Wood Dragon without any physical contact either.


So are you saying that if it wasn't wrapped around it he could absorb it?
And no if it touches Preta's barrier than it would still get absorbed.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> So are you saying that if it wasn't wrapped around it he could absorb it?
> And no if it touches Preta's barrier than it would still get absorbed.



 I meant both require physical contact which makes your point moot.

 But it doesn't, so thus, Preta Path can't absorb everything. If Preta Path didn't need physical contact, then it wouldn't have needed physical contact with SM Naruto to absorb his chakra which obviously he did, so your point is moot.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I meant both require physical contact which makes your point moot.
> 
> But it doesn't, so thus, Preta Path can't absorb everything. If Preta Path didn't need physical contact, then it wouldn't have needed physical contact with SM Naruto to absorb his chakra which obviously he did, so your point is moot.


Sucking Chakra out of a person is different then just absorbing a ninjutsu, as shown several times in the Manga.

And you still haven't answered my question.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Sucking Chakra out of a person is different then just absorbing a ninjutsu, as shown several times in the Manga.
> 
> And you still haven't answered my question.



 I said both need physical contact which means yes, Wooden Dragon would have to be touching the Preta Path barrier in order to absorb it's chakra. Likewise, Preta Path needs physical contact with chakra of a technique/organism to be able to absorb it's chakra. The example I gave is pretty much a given, so the whole idea of you mentioning the fact that Wooden Dragon needs physical contact to absorb chakra as a way to justify Preta Path's superiority is pointless as Preta Path also needs physical contact to do the same, rendering your entire argument useless.

 Check. 

 He takes blows from Limbo clones and is totally fine.

 Actually Wooden Dragon absorbs chakra. 

 And Hashirama describes Preta Path as a ninjutsu that absorbs chakra. 

 Seriously, it's common sense. You can't absorb a ninjutsu without absorbing chakra, that makes no sense.

 Checkmate.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I said both need physical contact which means yes, Wooden Dragon would have to be touching the Preta Path barrier in order to absorb it's chakra. Likewise, Preta Path needs physical contact with chakra of a technique/organism to be able to absorb it's chakra. The example I gave is pretty much a given, so the whole idea of you mentioning the fact that Wooden Dragon needs physical contact to absorb chakra as a way to justify Preta Path's superiority is pointless as Preta Path also needs physical contact to do the same, rendering your entire argument useless.
> 
> Check.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately for you, you failed to comprehend the point i was making as you completely assumed and of course got it wrong. If your answer is yes then that doesn't pose a limit on Preta, but rather a weakness, as it has the ability to absorb the wood dragon but it prevents it from doing so. That's all i needed to know, thanks.

Why are you stating things that wasn't being debated, getting tired?
Uhh yea it absorbs chakra so what?
Well obviously ninjutsu is chakra, but in most cases if not all cases Nagato has used the absorption barrier for ninjutsu but when actually absorbing a person's chakra like Naruto he needed contact. Don't see why your arguing this this was showned multiple times in the Manga. 

Your literally bringing up points that no one was arguing. Where did all that come from?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Unfortunately for you, you failed to comprehend the point i was making as you completely assumed and of course got it wrong. If your answer is yes then that doesn't pose a limit on Preta, but rather a weakness, as it has the ability to absorb the wood dragon but it prevents it from doing so. That's all i needed to know, thanks.



 It prevents it from doing so because it's a superior jutsu. As I proved that they have the same function, the fact that Wooden Dragon overpowered Preta Path signifies it's superiority. Furthermore, the fact that Wooden Dragon failed to absorb a Bijuudama means that Preta Path does have limits.

 Check.



> Why are you stating things that wasn't being debated, getting tired?
> Uhh yea it absorbs chakra so what?



 You claimed Wood Dragon sucks your chakra while Preta Path absorbs ninjutsu which was misleading as it sounded like your were saying absorbing chakra is different from absorbing ninjutsu.



> Well obviously * ninjutsu is chakra *, but in most cases if not all cases Nagato has used the absorption barrier for ninjutsu but when actually absorbing a person's chakra like Naruto he needed contact. Don't see why your arguing this this was showned multiple times in the Manga.



 Good, we're getting somewhere. The whole fact that Wooden Dragon absorbs ninjutsu means that Preta Path's barrier will still be absorbed even if Madara's not touching the dragon as long as the barrier is making contact with the Wooden Dragon. The only reason Hashirama had Wooden Dragon wrap around Madara is to restrict his mobility.

 But yeah, I didn't read what you were arguing against StarWanderer until now, so I Check  myself there.

 Check. 



> Your literally bringing up points that no one was arguing. Where did all that come from?



 I assumed you were arguing about something else. That doesn't negate the fact that I proved both jutsus have the same function.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It prevents it from doing so because it's a superior jutsu. As I proved that they have the same function, the fact that Wooden Dragon overpowered Preta Path signifies it's superiority. Furthermore, the fact that Wooden Dragon failed to absorb a Bijuudama means that Preta Path does have limits.
> 
> Check.
> 
> ...


How is Wood Dragon superior? as i recalled it was never stated to be able to absorb any ninjutsu like Preta was. Although they possess similar abiliies they are not the same technique. So you can't judge Preta off of Wood Dragon's failure to absorb a bjuudama especially when the former was stated absorb any ninjutsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> How is Wood Dragon superior? as i recalled it was never stated to be able to absorb any ninjutsu like Preta was. Although they possess similar abiliies they are not the same technique. So you can't judge Preta off of Wood Dragon's failure to absorb a bjuudama especially when the former was stated absorb any ninjutsu.



 Wooden Dragon absorbed a ninjutsu that negates all ninjutsu which means it should be able to absorb any ninjutsu yet failed to do that, so logically, Preta Path shouldn't be limitless.

 Common sense.

 Maybe you should bring up the manga scan that says Preta Path can absorb any jutsu and don't bring up the contradictory databook shit either.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Wooden Dragon absorbed a ninjutsu that negates all ninjutsu which means it should be able to absorb any ninjutsu yet failed to do that, so logically, Preta Path shouldn't be limitless.
> 
> Common sense.
> 
> Maybe you should bring up the manga scan that says Preta Path can absorb any jutsu and don't bring up the contradictory databook shit either.


Just because you absorb a technique doesn't automatically mean the move is granted the ability of the technique it absorbed. When the hell did that nonsense start? How is that logical?

If i do recall DB is Canon and why do you use the word contradict? you have yet to provide me with proof of Preta having a limit other than using other techs to base your claims off of.

Wood dragon doesn't miraculously gain the power to absorb any ninjutsu like Preta just because it was able to counter it by absorbing the users chakra. that doesn't even sound remotely logical.

Please provide proof of preta having limits when everything Preta absorbed got absorbed other than Wood Dragon that absorbed the users chakra which like i said doesn't imply a limit but rather a weakness because Preta possesses the ability to absorb it, it's just that with the users chakra being sapped it was rendered useless.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Just because you absorb a technique doesn't automatically mean the move is granted the ability of the technique it absorbed. When the hell did that nonsense start? How is that logical?



 Ignored for not refuting the earlier points I presented.





> If i do recall DB is Canon and why do you use the word contradict? you have yet to provide me with proof of Preta having a limit other than using other techs to base your claims off of.



 I have, you're just too blind to see it. Mangekyo's got your eyes. 



> Wood dragon doesn't miraculously gain the power to absorb any ninjutsu like Preta just because it was able to counter it by absorbing the users chakra. that doesn't even sound remotely logical.



 It does. It means Wood Dragon's chakra absorption is superior to Preta Path's which is supposedly limitless which means, since Wood Dragon absorbs chakra or ninjutsu at a higher rate, than all ninjutsu should be null which is not the case.



> Please provide proof of preta having limits when everything Preta absorbed got absorbed other than Wood Dragon that absorbed the users chakra which like i said doesn't imply a limit but rather a weakness because Preta possesses the ability to absorb it, it's just that with the users chakra being sapped it was rendered useless.



 I have. You've failed to refute my points. Wood Dragon negating Preta Path's chakra absorption means Wood Dragon has a higher rate of chakra absorption and that is required to be able to absorb huge amounts of chakra. As Wood Dragon failed to absorb Bijuudama and was shown to be superior to Preta Path, then Wood Dragon along with the inferior Preta Path has a limit. How simple does it have to be for you to understand?



> Except Madara wasn't rendered useless. He couldn't move or use Preta path due to Wood Dragon absorbing the chakra too quickly.



 So Madara was not rendered useless even though he couldn't move?

 Though you're correct because of this scan:

 He takes blows from Limbo clones and is totally fine.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 26, 2015)

> Just curious, if Wood Dragon wasn't wrapped around Madara, do you think he could have absorbed it?



So they key was to wrap Madara? LOL. Madara could use Preta Path when he was wrapped to absorb Wood Dragon, which is big and thick. Preta Paths range is short, you know. 

But Wood Dragon, again - a ninjutsu, could not be absorbed by Preta Path.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

It's highly likely that Wood Dragon was wrapped around Madara as Madara can deactivate Preta Path at any time, so to ensure his chakra is still being drained, he simply wrapped it around Madara as a countermeasure.

 But overall, Wood Dragon doesn't need to wrap around Madara to absorb Preta Path as long as the barrier is in contact with the dragon.


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## ARGUS (Feb 26, 2015)

Preta is not absorbing wood dragon 
Both the entities (preta and mokuryu) have chakra absorption abilities. And the mokuryu canonically countered preta path hard, since both of their absorptions cancelled each other out, and this process left madara immobilized and unable to cast any more jutsus


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Ignored for not refuting the earlier points I presented.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then i shall ignore as well.

I said proof note claims.

No it doesn't it just countered Preta Path. On top of that we didn't even see how he got caught in it and if he tried to use Preta before the Wood Dragon  got a hold of him. Like i said it's not that Wood Dragon was to much to absorb its that it had a way to cancel out an absorption tech by using its absorption tech. How the PS even come close to meeting that requirement? It's not the jutsu its self that doesn't allow Madara to absorb it, It's the jutsus ability that renders Preta useless. That's hardly a limit, more like a weakness.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Then i shall ignore as well.



 Concession accepted. 



> No it doesn't it just countered Preta Path.



 So thus it does not negate all ninjutsu. 



> On top of that we didn't even see how he got caught in it and if he tried to use Preta before the Wood Dragon  got a hold of him.



 That's a baseless assumption on your part which doesn't help your argument. What is stated by Hashirama is that Wood Dragon > Preta Path. This cannot be ignored.



> Like i said it's not that Wood Dragon was to much to absorb its that it had a way to cancel out an absorption tech by using its absorption tech.



 No, this means Wood Dragon is more efficient at chakra absorption. If that wasn't the case, Preta Path would've been stated to overpower his Wood Dragon which is not implied. What is implied that Wood Dragon is superior to Preta Path yet Wood Dragon failed to absorb a Bijuudama. Can you explain why that is when Wood Dragon's absorption is shown to be superior to a jutsu that you claim negates all ninjutsu?

 I'll wait for your response. 



> How the PS even come close to meeting that requirement?



 Oh god, comparing an absorption technique to a powerful Chakra Construct. You can't be serious, they have 2 completely different functions.



> It's not the jutsu its self that doesn't allow Madara to absorb it, It's the jutsus ability that renders Preta useless. That's hardly a limit, more like a weakness.



 The jutsu renders Preta Path useless due to it's superior chakra absorption which is the main component that determines Preta Path's ability to absorb ninjutsu. As Wood Dragon with superior chakra absorption failed to absorb a Bijuudama, how is Nagato going to absorb a Chakra Construct that can easily tank a Bijuudama?


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

I agree that EMS Madara can be defeated without PS with CT. And probably with CST (that Kurama hit feat was due to his Susanoo being amped with Hashirama's Sage Mode). But the rest of Nagato's arsenal is ineffective against EMS Madara. And he can quickly pull out PS (against which Nagato wont do anything) when he feels that Nagato is too strong. Maybe he will make his PS from the start, after he sees Nagato's Rinnegan. 

One PS shockwave and Nagato dies. He cant absorb it since its not even ninjutsu. He cant deflect, or redirect it with his CST because he has no feats with that to suggest he can do something like that to PS's shockwave, which can slice Hashirama's mokuton constructs and several mountains easily. His summons have no feats to suggest PS's shockwave wont go right through them and cut Nagato. If Nagato is in Chameleon, PS's shockwave will send it flying away, just like Gokage, and than EMS Madara will know where Nagato is. What will happen after that? PS kills Nagato. And, finally, i highly doubt Nagato's reaction speed is good enough to react to PS's shockwave. 

Plus, Nagato has no feats with his Preta Path to suggest he can absorb PS. 

Nagato dies.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 1, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I agree that EMS Madara can be defeated without PS with CT. And probably with CST (that Kurama hit feat was due to his Susanoo being amped with Hashirama's Sage Mode). But the rest of Nagato's arsenal is ineffective against EMS Madara. And he can quickly pull out PS (against which Nagato wont do anything) when he feels that Nagato is too strong. Maybe he will make his PS from the start, after he sees Nagato's Rinnegan.
> 
> One PS shockwave and Nagato dies. He cant absorb it since its not even ninjutsu. He cant deflect, or redirect it with his CST because he has no feats with that to suggest he can do something like that to PS's shockwave, which can slice Hashirama's mokuton constructs and several mountains easily. His summons have no feats to suggest PS's shockwave wont go right through them and cut Nagato. If Nagato is in Chameleon, PS's shockwave will send it flying away, just like Gokage, and than EMS Madara will know where Nagato is. What will happen after that? PS kills Nagato. And, finally, i highly doubt Nagato's reaction speed is good enough to react to PS's shockwave.
> 
> ...


Finally! Im not sure why it took you that long to reach that conclusion. 
If it took you that long to realize how trivial that debate was im not even going to bother with you any further.

Oh and just some stuff i wanted to point out. 
PS's shockwaves aren't going through several Cerberuses and still dealing damage to Nagato.
If he's in the Chameleon i don't PS would come out immediately as soon as he disappears.
Im sure Nagato would be able to react to shockwaves. They weren't emphasized as something that were actually dramaticlly fast.
You said it your self "when he feels Nagato is too strong" that might have already been too late.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Oh and just some stuff i wanted to point out.
> PS's shockwaves aren't going through several Cerberuses and still dealing damage to Nagato.



 You serious? Do you have any feats that suggest his Cerberuses are as durable as mountain ranges?

 Seriously, Madara's PS can effortlessly slice through Base Hashirama's arsenal and those shockwaves easily slice through mountain ranges. The shockwaves will easily slice through Cerberus.



> If he's in the Chameleon i don't PS would come out immediately as soon as he disappears.
> Im sure Nagato would be able to react to shockwaves. They weren't emphasized as something that were actually dramaticlly fast.



 He can't see the color of Nagato's chakra with his Sharingan?



> You said it your self "when he feels Nagato is too strong" that might have already been too late.



 Which is when he pulls out the Rinnegan.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

> Oh and just some stuff i wanted to point out.
> PS's shockwaves aren't going through several Cerberuses and still dealing damage to Nagato.



Yes they do. They have feats to say so. Cerberus has no feats. 



> If he's in the Chameleon i don't PS would come out immediately as soon as he disappears.
> Im sure Nagato would be able to react to shockwaves. They weren't emphasized as something that were actually dramaticlly fast.



The thing is - Madara can pull out PS when he feels he is in danger, or when he feels he cant beat his opponent without it.

Yes they were, they are many times faster than TBB's and are so fast Gokage couldnt react to a single shockwave.



> You said it your self "when he feels Nagato is too strong" that might have already been too late.



Since Nagato will have to use his most powerfull, chakra-draining techniques to deal with PS-less EMS Madara, that wont be too late. And Madara's reaction speed is much higher. Plus, EMS precognition.


----------



## king gogeta (Mar 1, 2015)

How is this thread still going on? When PS comes out Nagato get's decimated. End of story.


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## Alucardemi (Mar 1, 2015)

Sixty pages, when its clear to anyone willing to take a look at the way the author portrays both characters, that EMS Madara would decimate him.


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## Empathy (Mar 1, 2015)

Lots of this thread's traffic comes from posts wondering how this thread's gone on for so long.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You serious? Do you have any feats that suggest his Cerberuses are as durable as mountain ranges?
> 
> Seriously, Madara's PS can effortlessly slice through Base Hashirama's arsenal and those shockwaves easily slice through mountain ranges. The shockwaves will easily slice through Cerberus.
> 
> ...


Extent of Cerberus's durability was never shown. However it's absurd to think that PS's shockwave is going through shitloads of Cerberuses and killing Nagato, if even harming him at all.

Itachi didn't seem to.

Nothing at all suggests Madara especially with his type of character is bringing out PS immediately just because he saw Nagato's Rinnegan. If that's the case i might as well just say as soon as the match starts Nagato uses CST and Madara is resting 6 feet under.



StarWanderer said:


> Yes they do. They have feats to say so. Cerberus has no feats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PS slashes aren't going through shitloads of Cerberus's because each one it goes through and the more distance it travels the weaker it becomes.

Yea but the thing is Madara doesn't have that type of mindset to bring out PS out of know where. And the latter would be too late.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> PS slashes aren't going through shitloads of Cerberus's because each one it goes through and the more distance it travels the weaker it becomes.
> 
> Yea but the thing is Madara doesn't have that type of mindset to bring out PS out of know where. And the latter would be too late.



1. There wont be sh*rload of Cerberus. I have never seen Nagato summoning a whole army of them at once. 
2. Madara can pull out his Susanoo when he sees The Rinnegan. He has the mindset to use PS against strong shinobi, such as Hashirama, for example.
3. Madara can pull out his PS when he sees how powerfull Nagato's techniques are. Especially when he has EMS precognition. And then, he can use PS, which cant be countered by Nagato.



sanninme rikudo said:


> PS slashes aren't going through shitloads of Cerberus's because each one it goes through and the more distance it travels the weaker it becomes.
> 
> Yea but the thing is Madara doesn't have that type of mindset to bring out PS out of know where. And the latter would be too late.



There is a Databook statement that proves Nagato can absorb PS. But he cant deal with PS's shockwaves and as if Madara wont be able to do anything with his PS when it gets slowly absorbed.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 1, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 1. There wont be sh*rload of Cerberus. I have never seen Nagato summoning a whole army of them at once.
> 2. Madara can pull out his Susanoo when he sees The Rinnegan. He has the mindset to use PS against strong shinobi, such as Hashirama, for example.
> 3. Madara can pull out his PS when he sees how powerfull Nagato's techniques are. Especially when he has EMS precognition. And then, he can use PS, which cant be countered by Nagato.


Yea that would have been logical, if Nagato didn't summon multiheaded dogs.
Hashi can't be compared to Nagato like you stated. And Hashi is the only person that he deems worthy and respectable other than 8 gate Gai of course. That is how his mindset is.
It only takes one tech and Madara is out of here so Madara won't have time to see how strong his techs are.



StarWanderer said:


> There is a Databook statement that proves Nagato can absorb PS. But he cant deal with PS's shockwaves and as if Madara wont be able to do anything with his PS when it gets slowly absorbed.


We already provided DB evidence for you and you still refused it earlier. it's about time you accepted it. Seeing as how you and the other guy agree with whatever each other says, as if you guys share a brain or something im assuming he'd accept it too.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yea that would have been logical, if Nagato didn't summon multiheaded dogs.
> Hashi can't be compared to Nagato like you stated. And Hashi is the only person that he deems worthy and respectable other than 8 gate Gai of course. That is how his mindset is.
> It only takes one tech and Madara is out of here so Madara won't have time to see how strong his techs are.



Only Nagato's strongest techniques, such as CST and CT can do damage to Madara's imperfect Susanoo, or he can absorb it, but Madara can pull out his PS and make few shockwaves which Nagato cant counter.

But Nagato cant. And Madara can utilise his techniques much faster then Nagato, since he has better reaction speed.

It wont be too late because:

1. As soon as his imperfect Susanoo gets seriously damaged, or absorbed, PS goes out.
2. Madara casn pull out PS when he sees Nagato's Rinnegan. His mindset is that he respects formidable enemies. He is not stupid enough to underestimate someone with The Rinnegan. 

EMS Madara still beats Nagato.



sanninme rikudo said:


> We already provided DB evidence for you and you still refused it earlier. it's about time you accepted it. Seeing as how you and the other guy agree with whatever each other says, as if you guys share a brain or something im assuming he'd accept it too.



It was differently translated.

And whatever you think, or whatever you privided about Preta Path - PS still kills Nagato because of its shockwaves which Nagato cant counter.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> We already provided DB evidence for you and you still refused it earlier. it's about time you accepted it. Seeing as how you and the other guy agree with whatever each other says, as if you guys share a brain or something im assuming he'd accept it too.



 PS Shockwaves aren't ninjutsu, so they won't get absorbed. 

 CST is stated to dispel all jutsu, but PS Shockwaves aren't a jutsu to begin with, they're simply the magnitude of a force being exerted by a Slash. 

 So thus, PS Shockwaves kill Nagato.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> PS Shockwaves aren't ninjutsu, so they won't get absorbed.
> 
> CST is stated to dispel all jutsu, but PS Shockwaves aren't a jutsu to begin with, they're simply the magnitude of a force being exerted by a Slash.
> 
> So thus, PS Shockwaves kill Nagato.


Your always bringing up points no one was ever arguing. There's no sense in that.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Your always bringing up points no one was ever arguing. There's no sense in that.



 I'm acknowledging your logic and actually explaining why PS Shockwave does not apply to the Databook's statements, so therefore, Databook is meaningless.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'm acknowledging your logic and actually explaining why PS Shockwave does not apply to the Databook's statements, so therefore, Databook is meaningless.


Never knew DB stated that Preta can absorb shockwaves. Since when?


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Never knew DB stated that Preta can absorb shockwaves. Since when?



 I'm hoping you're seriously trolling here.

 Since Databook didn't state Preta can absorb Shockwaves, Nagato dies.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'm hoping you're seriously trolling here.
> 
> Since Databook didn't state Preta can absorb Shockwaves, Nagato dies.


Obviously it never stated it. Know one is stating anything about Preta absorbing PS's shockwaves so stop bringing that crap up


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Obviously it never stated it. Know one is stating anything about Preta absorbing PS's shockwaves so stop bringing that crap up



 So therefore, since Preta and CST according to Databook can't resist PS Shockwaves, Nagato dies.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So therefore, since Preta and CST according to Databook can't resist PS Shockwaves, Nagato dies.


Who says CST can't resist shockwaves? Preta not only absorbs but nullifies ninjutsu.
Plus he has shitloads of Cerberuses to tank it.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Who says CST can't resist shockwaves? Preta not only absorbs but nullifies ninjutsu.
> Plus he has shitloads of Cerberuses to tank it.



Lack of feats says. CST cant resist those shockwaves.

It will take a very loooooong time for Nagato's Preta Path to absorb PS. And while it gets absorbed, it can make shockwaves to kill Nagato. 

The OP didnt say he has lots of them from the start. And Nagato has never summoned a whole army of Cerberuses. And as if they can tank PS's shockwave.


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## Mercurial (Mar 1, 2015)

Madara stomps with Perfect Susanoo.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 1, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Lack of feats says. CST cant resist those shockwaves.
> 
> It will take a very loooooong time for Nagato's Preta Path to absorb PS. And while it gets absorbed, it can make shockwaves to kill Nagato.
> 
> The OP didnt say he has lots of them from the start. And Nagato has never summoned a whole army of Cerberuses. And as if they can tank PS's shockwave.


Nagato can summon multi-headed Cerberuses. It's absurd to think it can travel through shitloads of Cerberuses and actually deal damage to Nagato even when knowing Shockwaves get weaker each thing the go through and the more distance they travel.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Who says CST can't resist shockwaves? Preta not only absorbs but nullifies ninjutsu.
> Plus he has shitloads of Cerberuses to tank it.



 Shockwaves aren't ninjutsu. 

 CST can't even destroy mini Katsuyu's while PS Shockwaves can blow through mountain ranges with ease. 

 Yet you haven't provided any feats of Nagato being able to summon multiple Cerberus's before Madara just chops him in half with PS. 

 That would work Sanninme if Cerberus's are more durable than Mountain Ranges, but they're not, so they easily get sliced through. But I do hope you realize he can just spam more PS Shockwaves considering how fast he was able to attack with his PS against Hashirama's Hotei and that was with his Inferior PS.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Shockwaves aren't ninjutsu.
> 
> CST can't even destroy mini Katsuyu's while PS Shockwaves can blow through mountain ranges with ease.
> 
> ...


Interesting, didn't know gravity only applies to Ninjutsu. Lol you learn something new everyday i suppose.

When not directed at something like slugs and bugs and stuff like that you shouldn't expect them to die many different bugs can survive explosions that can extirpate the human race. If the move was directed towards them then the slugs would have been eliminated.

Like i said previously, it's your job to educate yourself about the Manga, so i suggest you go reread Nagato and Itachi vs Bee and Naruto, or Pain vs Jiraiya.

Like i said shockwaves passing shitloads of cerberuses and still harming Nagato is moronic, especially when Nagato can hold up an ST barrier if it goes through all of them which is highly doubtful.
We haven't even seen the extent of Cerberuses durability so how is it remotely right to say the slashes go through all of them with ease? Especially when shockwaves get weaker the more distance in covers and the more things it goes through.
Tell me now, when has Madara used several PS shockwaves consecutively when his opponent wasn't Hashirama?

Truth of the matter is, Madara isn't bringing out PS from the jump so a Boss Sized ST focused all on him will not only send him flying but grind every bone in his body to dust.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Interesting, didn't know gravity only applies to Ninjutsu. Lol you learn something new everyday i suppose.



 Interesting. Now I see you're putting words in my mouth.



> When not directed at something like slugs and bugs and stuff like that you shouldn't expect them to die many different bugs can survive explosions that can extirpate the human race. If the move was directed towards them then the slugs would have been eliminated.



 Except it was. If it wasn't, why would Tsunade have the slugs protect the villagers if the blast wasn't even going to hit that area to begin with? It's implied Katsuyu tanked the damage for the villagers and that was never contradicted.



> Like i said previously, it's your job to educate yourself about the Manga, so i suggest you go reread Nagato and Itachi vs Bee and Naruto, or Pain vs Jiraiya.



 I've read both fights multiple times which is why I'm wondering what kind of bullshit you've been readying thinking Nagato summons an army of Cerberus's when that has never happened in the manga. 



> Like i said shockwaves passing shitloads of cerberuses and still harming Nagato is moronic, especially when Nagato can hold up an ST barrier if it goes through all of them which is highly doubtful.



 LMAO, shitloads of Cerberus's. You have yet to prove that has ever happened, so .



> We haven't even seen the extent of Cerberuses durability so how is it remotely right to say the slashes go through all of them with ease? Especially when shockwaves get weaker the more distance in covers and the more things it goes through.
> Tell me now, when has Madara used several PS shockwaves consecutively when his opponent wasn't Hashirama?



 I have actually. Boss Summons easily cut through Cerberus which is vastly inferior to the power of PS Slashes and PS Shockwaves. Even only one of Jiraiya's boss summons managed to fend off the Cerberus's until he was hit by a Bird Summon.

 Tell me when Nagato has summoned Multiple Cerberus's. Until then, Madara will use multiple PS Slashes just because. 



> Truth of the matter is, Madara isn't bringing out PS from the jump so a Boss Sized ST focused all on him will not only send him flying but grind every bone in his body to dust.



 Because Nagato always starts with a Boss Sized ST and can destroy Madara who can resist the attacks of multiple Bijuu.  Before you say it was SM Madara, Madara cannot gather or effectively use Sage Chakra.


 But even then, when he sees Nagato pull out his Rinnegan, he's pulling out his Susanoo which easily resists a Boss Sized ST.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Interesting. Now I see you're putting words in my mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then why are you constantly bringing up shockwaves not being a Ninjutsu? when no one is claiming that bullshit.

Last time i checked CST was directed to the village as a whole not just a slug if the latter was the case the slugs would have been out of here.

Obviously you didn't read it mindfully, as you would have realized how in both fights Nagato summoned Multiheaded dogs.

So i say again, the shockwave aren't getting past shitloads of Cerberuses enough of that crap.

If he doesn't use Boss Sized ST he has other variants of ST's to use that will still put down Madara.

Damn if that's the case i guess Nagato brings out CST from the jump as well. Any Susanoo below PS gets absorbed relatively quickly and easily.

Just because he see's Nagato with a rinnegan he isn't bringing out PS from the jump. Hashi was the only person he deems worthy to actually do that to.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Nagato can summon multi-headed Cerberuses. It's absurd to think it can travel through shitloads of Cerberuses and actually deal damage to Nagato even when knowing Shockwaves get weaker each thing the go through and the more distance they travel.



And? Shockwave goes through multi-headed Cerberus and kills Nagato. Its that simple. There wont be an army of those Cerberus. Nagato will summon one, shockwave goes through it and kills Nagato.


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## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2015)

nagato horribly dies. 
he is turned into smear the second PS comes into play. as i am sure too many people have said already


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> nagato horribly dies.
> he is turned into smear the second PS comes into play. as i am sure too many people have said already



Yeayea.

Gakido says "hi".

Banshou Ten'in says "Bye".

Madara got his Rinnegan and didn't use his perfect Susano'o anymore. What does this mean?

And If we look closer, Limbo: Hengoku isn't that great when compared to Perfect Susano'o. Shadows that can only use Taijutsu, even a strong one because of their durability are always worse than that PS Sword (power of all bijuus, like u guys say).

If PS >> Rinnegan, Madara would continue to use it. He has no answer for Rinnegan abilities, 6 paths.


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## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2015)

oh so i guess gakido can absorb juubito BD or a BD as well ??
if you believe so then fine but if u going to argue that then PS murders nagato 

also gakido failed to absorb wood dragon 

He did say i cant use preta path and susanoo at the same time so i guess u are right 

i need consistency. that means you agree nagato would murder stomp kyuubi or any bijuu for that matter. since you know BD means nothing to gakido 

let me be the first to say it. nagato absorbs juubito quad dama


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Yeayea.
> 
> Gakido says "hi".
> 
> ...



Gakido wont help him against PS, which he cant absorb in a short time. PS's shockwave - Nagato dies.

Banshou Ten'in wont pull Madara out of imperfect Susanoo, let alone PS, which is very different from imperfect Susanoo. PS is out - nagato dies.

PS >>>>> Nagato. Nagato is not the true owner of those ayes, so he can use their full potential. PS is the ultimate answer for Nagato's Rinnegan abilities. PS shockwave cant be pushed back, or dodged by him, or blocked in any way, or absorbed. Nagato dies.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oh so i guess gakido can absorb juubito BD or a BD as well ??
> if you believe so then fine but if u going to argue that then PS murders nagato
> 
> also gakido failed to absorb wood dragon
> ...



Nop. He can absorve ONE Bijuu Dama or ONE tenpenchi, but he can't absorve the flash bijuu dama, for example, or the quad tenpenchi from Juubi.

However, he can easily absorve ONE Bijuu Dama. The cinetic energy is not a problem, since the chakra barrier rotates on the inverse direction, just like it did against the Rasen Shuriken without any problems or against the Rasengan and the Gamayudan from Jiraya.

About PS shockwaves, he can absorve the Susano'o and sword, not the shockwaves.

The wood dragon "bitten" the barrier, and absorved it before the effects. Daikoudan would do the same, and I've my doubts about Samehada too. 
Gakido it's a chakra barrier, if u can absorve that chakra from the barrier, u have no problems. However, if u can't, that barrier is going to suck all ur chakra.


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## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Nop. He can absorve ONE Bijuu Dama or ONE tenpenchi, but he can't absorve the flash bijuu dama, for example, or the quad tenpenchi from Juubi.
> 
> However, he can easily absorve ONE Bijuu Dama. The cinetic energy is not a problem, since the chakra barrier rotates on the inverse direction, just like it did against the Rasen Shuriken without any problems or against the Rasengan and the Gamayudan from Jiraya.
> 
> ...



so then there is a limit that you decided upon on what he can absorb 

 

isnt that convenient ? i thought gakido could absorb chakra. so why cant he absorb that. 

what makes that too much and not PS?

i knew u wouldnt stay consistent 

so somehow it cant absorb juubi BD because well u say its too strong but a regular BD from kyuubi u are sure he can absorb. provide proof as to why he can absorb kyuubi BD and not the juubi's


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> About PS shockwaves, he can absorve the Susano'o and sword, not the shockwaves.



He needs lots of times to absorb such a chakra construct. PS swings while it gets absorbed - Nagato dies.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> And? Shockwave goes through multi-headed Cerberus and kills Nagato. Its that simple. There wont be an army of those Cerberus. Nagato will summon one, shockwave goes through it and kills Nagato.


Multiheaded Cerberus can split whenever it wants.  So again the shockwave doesn't go through a shitload of Cerberuses and still harm Nagato.

And Preta nullifies all Ninjutsu when in contact with the barrier.

So Madara's chances are out the window. His only chances of actually tasting a sample of victory was his garbage shockwaves and Nagato has his ST barrier and his Dogs to take that for him. Plus, he can void PS and absorb it with Preta. And like i said PS isn't coming out from the jump and that will cost Madara either his mobility or his life all together.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Multiheaded Cerberus can split whenever it wants.  So again the shockwave doesn't go through a shitload of Cerberuses and still harm Nagato.
> 
> And Preta nullifies all Ninjutsu when in contact with the barrier.
> 
> So Madara's chances are out the window. His only chances of actually tasting a sample of victory was his garbage shockwaves and Nagato has his ST barrier and his Dogs to take that for him. Plus, he can void PS and absorb it with Preta. And like i said PS isn't coming out from the jump and that will cost Madara either his mobility or his life all together.



When it splits, PS strikes, or it can strike faster than Cerberus can split. PS has feats to suggest its swings are faster than Cerberuses split. The shockwave goes through Cerberus and kills Nagato. And how much it could split? Up to 3? LOL. Shockwave goes through 3 of them without any problem. Or it goes through 1 multi-headed Cerberus. Also, Nagato is simply not fast enough to go behind Cerberus, or to summon Cerberus fast enough to block PS's hits with it. Gokage couldnt react to PS's shockwave.

Nagato's Preta Path is not strong enough to nullify PS in an instant. It needs to absorb the entire construct, which can strike while being absorbed. 

LOL, "garbage shockwaves". If these shockwaves are garbage, than Nagato's Rinnegan abilities are whaaaaat? Thats right - little stinky sh*t peaces. 

But seriously, Nagato cant do anything against Madara's PS shockwaves. His ST barrier isnt strong enough to deflect shockwaves. he cant absorb them. he cant dodge them, he cant protect himself against them. PS laughs at Nagato's arsenal and its swing kills Nagato.

EMS Madara's reaction speed is beyond that of Nagato. The moment his imperfect Susanoo gets destroyed, or the moment it gets hot out there in battlefield - he pulls out PS, which is unbeatable for Nagato because of its shockwaves. Or, Madara can pull out PS right away after he sees Nagato's Rinnegan.


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## Bkprince33 (Mar 2, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Multiheaded Cerberus can split whenever it wants.  So again the shockwave doesn't go through a shitload of Cerberuses and still harm Nagato.
> 
> And Preta nullifies all Ninjutsu when in contact with the barrier.
> 
> So Madara's chances are out the window. His only chances of actually tasting a sample of victory was his garbage shockwaves and Nagato has his ST barrier and his Dogs to take that for him. Plus, he can void PS and absorb it with Preta. And like i said PS isn't coming out from the jump and that will cost Madara either his mobility or his life all together.



OOC much? Since when has nagato ever  used cerberous for a meat shield wtf??

And aside from Cerberus being less durable then the mountains that madara cleaved straight threw, why couldn't madara just genjutsu cerberus?


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 2, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> OOC much? Since when has nagato ever  used cerberous for a meat shield wtf??
> 
> And aside from Cerberus being less durable then the mountains that madara cleaved straight threw, why couldn't madara just genjutsu cerberus?


When has Nagato ever needed to do so?
 DB said rinnegan makes you immune to visual genjutsu. Ontop of that they have chakra receivers all over them so  Nagato still has control over them.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> When has Nagato ever needed to do so?
> DB said rinnegan makes you immune to visual genjutsu. Ontop of that they have chakra receivers all over them so  Nagato still has control over them.



Doesnt matter - PS kills Nagato before he can summon any Cerberus, or before there is an army of them.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Doesnt matter - PS kills Nagato before he can summon any Cerberus, or before there is an army of them.


What type of crap was that?  Your frustration is getting the best of you, which is evident by that garbage argument you just made.

Then the same can be said about Nagato, CST kills Madara at the start of the match.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> What type of crap was that?  Your frustration is getting the best of you, which is evident by that garbage argument you just made.
> 
> Then the same can be said about Nagato, CST kills Madara at the start of the match.



That arguement isnt garbage, since you cant counter that. EMS Madara still wins, because Nagato cant do anything about PS's shockwaves.

The thing is - EMS Madara is much faster than Nagato in movement speed and reaction speed. And his PS is much faster than any of Nagato's summons.

CST can damage his imperfect Susanoo, but i highly doubt it can kill Madara. Because of how durable his imperfect Susanoo is. EMS Madara can pull out his PS after his imperfect Susanoo is heavily damaged, or he can pull it out from the start due to Nagato having The Rinnegan.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> That arguement isnt garbage, since you cant counter that. EMS Madara still wins, because Nagato cant do anything about PS's shockwaves.
> 
> The thing is - EMS Madara is much faster than Nagato in movement speed and reaction speed. And his PS is much faster than any of Nagato's summons.
> 
> CST can damage his imperfect Susanoo, but i highly doubt it can kill Madara. Because of how durable his imperfect Susanoo is. EMS Madara can pull out his PS after his imperfect Susanoo is heavily damaged, or he can pull it out from the start due to Nagato having The Rinnegan.


It's not like Madara at all to take that much of a serious measure just because he saw a guy with a Rinnegan. He isn't going to bring PS out from the start of the match Madara is too arrogant to bring out his last resort and strongest move at the start. It is more reasonable to say that he see's none of his other attacks will work on him then PS would be forced to come out.

But if you really think so then Nagato see's his sharingan and uses CST or a Boss Size ST at the start of the match. And even the latter is more plausible then Madara bringing out PS at the start of the match.

And what do you mean counter? you still haven't given me reason to think that the shockwaves can go through a shitload of Cerberuses and still harm Nagato who can also sustain the ST barrier.

On top of the Preta doesn't only absorb ninjtsu but voids it as well so Syonara PS.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> It's not like Madara at all to take that much of a serious measure just because he saw a guy with a Rinnegan. He isn't going to bring PS out from the start of the match Madara is too arrogant to bring out his last resort and strongest move at the start. It is more reasonable to say that he see's none of his other attacks will work on him then PS would be forced to come out.



Yes, just because he saw a guy with a legendary dodjutsu owned by a legendary figure, who was rumored to be the first shinobi and the first human born with ckakra. Madara is arrogant, but he is not stupid. And the thing is - he is going to pull it out anyway. Nagato wont be able to kill Madara with his arsenal, because after his imperfect Susanoo is damaged by CST, or absorbed by CT, he starts to use PS.



> But if you really think so then Nagato see's his sharingan and uses CST or a Boss Size ST at the start of the match. And even the latter is more plausible then Madara bringing out PS at the start of the match.



Which wont kill Madara. It will only damage his impeerfect Susanoo.



> And what do you mean counter? you still haven't given me reason to think that the shockwaves can go through a shitload of Cerberuses and still harm Nagato who can also sustain the ST barrier.
> 
> On top of the Preta doesn't only absorb ninjtsu but voids it as well so Syonara PS.



Why are you still writing about sh*tload of Cerberus when:

1. There wont be an army of Cerberus.
2. Madara can make multiple shockwaves.
3. His shockwaves are much faster than any of Nagato's summons.
4. Nagato doesnt even know about those shockwaves in the first place.

???

Can you show me where Nagato's Preta Path could void ninjutsu instantaneously?


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 2, 2015)

> Yes, just because he saw a guy with a legendary dodjutsu owned by a legendary figure, who was rumored to be the first shinobi and the first human born with ckakra



Then I don't see Madara fighting. Probably he was going to run and say sorry.

Srsly, Madara Perfect Susano'o it's completely fucked by Gakido I don't understand where do u see any chances for Madara man.

10 seconds, or even 15 it's all that he needs to suck that chakra. And, If Madara tries to stop him, he can just Shinra Tensei or absorv the Katon that's coming.


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 2, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Yeayea.
> 
> Gakido says "hi".
> 
> ...



The only times Madara has ever actually used perfect Susano'o is when he's had the Rinnegan active.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Yes, just because he saw a guy with a legendary dodjutsu owned by a legendary figure, who was rumored to be the first shinobi and the first human born with ckakra. Madara is arrogant, but he is not stupid. And the thing is - he is going to pull it out anyway. Nagato wont be able to kill Madara with his arsenal, because after his imperfect Susanoo is damaged by CST, or absorbed by CT, he starts to use PS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The man didn't seem threatened by Kurama the Shinobi Alliance or Muu and Onoki so why would a random boy with a Rinnegan that he has no idea how he obtained it or what his powers might be, actually make him less arrogant in this fight. If anything he'd probably question Nagato first seeing as how baffling it'll be. Yea See that would be a plausible time for him to bring it out, definitely not at the start of the match. 

imperfect Susanoo gets absorbed easily. And when it does. Boss Sized ST will get him outta here. Since PS doesn't come out at the start of the match Madara attempts become futile and during that period of time Nagato ends him before PS comes out. because the rest of his arsenal becomes useless and by the time Madara realizes this he gets dropped.

This also raises the question whether Madara's Susanoo can stabilize while being absorbed. 
Also Nagato has BT to yank him out. of Susanoo

Why won't there be an army i just explained to you why don't deny facts. 
One shockwave won't go through all the dogs and still harm Nagato, so he sends a plethora of them meanwhile he's only increasing the amount of Rinnegan having Mutts on the field thus increasing Nagato's defenses, not smart on Madara's part.
No speed needed just need to sit there and tank.
Madara doesn't know about CST in the first place or a Boss sized ST in the first place.

Apart from the fact that the DB has stated this,all of the attacks that have came in contact with the Preta Barrier have been rendered useless and couldn't effect the user because it voids the jutsu.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> Srsly, Madara Perfect Susano'o it's completely fucked by Gakido I don't understand where do u see any chances for Madara man.



I dont understand why cant you just read the manga and reply to me after you do that?

Nagato cant do *anything* about PS's shockwave. 



> 10 seconds, or even 15 it's all that he needs to suck that chakra.



Its up to you to prove he can suck such a big chakra construct in seconds.



> And, If Madara tries to stop him, he can just Shinra Tensei or absorv the Katon that's coming.



His ST has never, ever repelled something as powerfull as PS's shockwave.



> The man didn't seem threatened by Kurama the Shinobi Alliance or Muu and Onoki so why would a random boy with a Rinnegan that he has no idea how he obtained it or what his powers might be, actually make him less arrogant in this fight. If anything he'd probably question Nagato first seeing as how baffling it'll be. Yea See that would be a plausible time for him to bring it out, definitely not at the start of the match.



He wasnt becaus he was an Edo and because he knew what Kurama is capable of. As for Onoki and Muu, why should he be worried about these two?

Thats the thing - a boy with legendary dodjutsu EMS Madara knows nothing about. Thats the reason to use PS. So yeah - EMS Madara can pull it out from the start.



> imperfect Susanoo gets absorbed easily. And when it does. Boss Sized ST will get him outta here. Since PS doesn't come out at the start of the match Madara attempts become futile and during that period of time Nagato ends him before PS comes out. because the rest of his arsenal becomes useless and by the time Madara realizes this he gets dropped.



While it gets absorbed, PS is pulled out and Nagato gets butchered by PS's shockwave.

Stop writing as if Madara is an idiot. Because he is not. And he is not arrogant to the point he will underestimate someone with The Rinnegan. 



> This also raises the question whether Madara's Susanoo can stabilize while being absorbed.
> Also Nagato has BT to yank him out. of Susanoo



Its up to you to prove it cant be stabilised while being absorbed. It could stay for few moments even after Shinsuusenju's barrage of punches. And its up to you to prove Nagato will get close enough to absorb his PS in the first place.

That was countered long time ago - he cant pull him out of his imperfect Susanoo, let alone Perfect Susanoo, which is very different from imperfect one. Can you show me at least one example where someone was pulled out of PS?



> Why won't there be an army i just explained to you why don't deny facts.
> One shockwave won't go through all the dogs and still harm Nagato, so he sends a plethora of them meanwhile he's only increasing the amount of Rinnegan having Mutts on the field thus increasing Nagato's defenses, not smart on Madara's part.
> No speed needed just need to sit there and tank.
> Madara doesn't know about CST in the first place or a Boss sized ST in the first place.



I dont deny them. There was no army of Cerberuses when Edo Nagato fought KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. No army at all. 

One shockwave can cut multiple mountains and Hashirama's wood constructs easily. It goes even through several Cerberuses and cuts down Nagato, who's ST is not strong enough to repell something like that.

And at the moment when there will be PS, there will be not more than 3 Cerberuses. 

There wont be a lot of Cerberuses, because Nagato has never summoned more than 3 of them. And that multi-headed Cerberus could split only in 3 Cerberuses. Shockwave goes through 3 of them and cuts Nagato.

Plus, they wont be able to cover Nagato from several shockwaves. One shockwave will send them flying away, or cut them. Second/third shockwave cuts Nagato.

Nagato doesnt know about PS in the first place. he doesnt know about shockwaves.



> Apart from the fact that the DB has stated this,all of the attacks that have came in contact with the Preta Barrier have been rendered useless and couldn't effect the user because it voids the jutsu.



Does it voids ninjutsu in an instant? Can he void PS in an instant? No he cant. Nagato, or his Pain, has never voided ninjutsu in an instant. He cant void PS - he needs lots of time to do that. But PS swings and Nagato dies.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He wasnt becaus he was an Edo and because he knew what Kurama is capable of. As for Onoki and Muu, why should he be worried about these two?
> 
> Thats the thing - a boy with legendary dodjutsu EMS Madara knows nothing about. Thats the reason to use PS. So yeah - EMS Madara can pull it out from the start.
> 
> ...


When Madara first went after Kurama he didn't know what it was capable of he only knew it was very powerful.
Madara isn't bringing out PS from the start, especially when he called Obito and Nagato brats then a half dead obito controlled by black Zetsu ended up leading to his demise.

shitloads of Cerberuses Tank his slashes. He has ST barrier a bird and flight along with Asura jet boosters and you believe dodging the shockwave is out of the question.

Stop writing as if Madara will bring out PS from the jump of the match he's not. He saw gai go 8 gates and still didn't bother to use it. If that's the case then i can say, Nagato see's his sharingan and CST gets used from the start of the match.

He pulled a rock from the water so why not from PS?

I have proved why getting up to Madara won't be a problem.

There were no army of them because they didn't split.

Now why isn't ST strong enough to stop the shockwaves? Especially from a Prime Nagato
One shockwave will double the shitload amount there was before another one would only double that amount. the more they double the less effective his shockwaves would get.

Prove that Nagato ca't summon more than 3 headed Cerberuses. A limit was never placed on them stop putting limits on things.

Madara doesn't know about CST

You seem to get Preta's absorbing effect and voiding effect confused. It took time to absorb attacks but when in contact with the barrier the attack was voided.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 2, 2015)

Hey guys... I just remembered something, you know how Madara's shockwave feat is so good? 

Well it only mashed up a mountain face? Nagato is more durable than a mountain. In fact Madara's shockwave thing isn't even a feat, it's nothing. Sasuke got smashed into the side of a canyon rock face and didn't even break a bone? Canyon=Mountain... you're telling me something that can slash a mountain when all it requires is basic part 1 attack strength is enough to defeat Prime Nagato?

I don't think so...


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 2, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Hey guys... I just remembered something, you know how Madara's shockwave feat is so good?
> 
> Well it only mashed up a mountain face? Nagato is more durable than a mountain. In fact Madara's shockwave thing isn't even a feat, it's nothing. Sasuke got smashed into the side of a canyon rock face and didn't even break a bone? Canyon=Mountain... you're telling me something that can slash a mountain when all it requires is basic part 1 attack strength is enough to defeat Prime Nagato?
> 
> I don't think so...


It's mainly beacause people around here just gas up PS's slashes because it's Madara. They say a couple slashes decides the match, when in reality it didn't even eradicate a whole mountain it clipped of the top of the mountain. Just by that feat alone they believe it to be undodgeable or untankable when Madara hasn't killed or severly harmed for that matter, someone with it.
Then when a Pain getting chakra from an emaciated Nagato that was far away uses an ST that soloed 3 huge toads(and wasn't even close to his strongest ST) they want to deem it non effective


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 2, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> It's mainly beacause people around here just gas up PS's slashes because it's Madara. They say a couple slashes decides the match, when in reality it didn't even eradicate a whole mountain it clipped of the top of the mountain. Just by that feat alone they believe it to be undodgeable or untankable when Madara hasn't killed or severly harmed for that matter, someone with it.
> Then when a Pain getting chakra from an emaciated Nagato that was far away uses an ST that soloed 3 huge toads(and wasn't even close to his strongest ST) they want to deem it non effective



People also forget that Pain the avatar of Nagato was running like 100+ miles an hour away from Enraged six tail naruto kurama mode. If the avatar can run that fast im pretty sure a healthy prime nagato can aswell.

The PS slashes are a joke. If you look at all of Nagato's abilties in his arsenal he has at least a dozen ways to avoid PS. And Madara will not be spamming them because when has he ever done that?


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 2, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> It's mainly beacause people around here just gas up PS's slashes because it's Madara. They say a couple slashes decides the match, when in reality it didn't even eradicate a whole mountain it clipped of the top of the mountain. Just by that feat alone they believe it to be undodgeable or untankable when Madara hasn't killed or severly harmed for that matter, someone with it.
> Then when a Pain getting chakra from an emaciated Nagato that was far away uses an ST that soloed 3 huge toads(and wasn't even close to his strongest ST) they want to deem it non effective


Pein's Gravitation Manipulation solo's some shitty wind blown off by Madara's sword swing.

If people could survive the Kyuubi's tales then they can easily survive Madara's wind slices.
 ...gassed.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 2, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> People also forget that Pain the avatar of Nagato was running like 100+ miles an hour away from Enraged six tail naruto kurama mode. If the avatar can run that fast im pretty sure a healthy prime nagato can aswell.



 Because KN6 Naruto is so fast correct? 



> The PS slashes are a joke. If you look at all of Nagato's abilties in his arsenal he has at least a dozen ways to avoid PS. And Madara will not be spamming them because when has he ever done that?



 So basically you just conceded that multiple PS slashes are the way Nagato dies, so you try to conceal his victory by ignoring the fact that he spammed PS Slashes against Hashirama. If you really weren't biased, you would've noticed Sanninme Rikudou mention Nagato summoning an army of Cerberus's which has never happened in the manga.

 But whatever floats your Nagato boat.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 3, 2015)

> When Madara first went after Kurama he didn't know what it was capable of he only knew it was very powerful.
> Madara isn't bringing out PS from the start, especially when he called Obito and Nagato brats then a half dead obito controlled by black Zetsu ended up leading to his demise.



And he knew he could control it with EMS.

Because he knew about them. He knew what they were capable of. In this case, EMS Madara knows nothing about Nagato.

He overestimate his abilities, because he was a Juubi's Jin at that moment. 



> shitloads of Cerberuses Tank his slashes. He has ST barrier a bird and flight along with Asura jet boosters and you believe dodging the shockwave is out of the question.
> 
> Stop writing as if Madara will bring out PS from the jump of the match he's not. He saw gai go 8 gates and still didn't bother to use it. If that's the case then i can say, Nagato see's his sharingan and CST gets used from the start of the match.



How many times will you write about that? There wont be many Cerberuses. Nagato can summon aither 1 Cerberus, or multi-headed Cerberus. He never summoned bigger number of Cerberuses. PS's shockwave is going through even several Cerberuses without any problem, because PS's shockwave can cut mountains and Hashirama's mokuton (with which he can grab Bijuu Dama, or withstand its explosion). Even if Nagato summons 3 multi-headed Cerberuses, PS's shockwave goes through them and cuts Nagato.

He is, because he will fight against someone who possesses The Rinnegan. Also, CST isnt going to do anything to even unstabilised PS.



> He pulled a rock from the water so why not from PS?
> 
> I have proved why getting up to Madara won't be a problem.
> 
> There were no army of them because they didn't split.



1. PS is different from an ordinary Susanoo. There is no proof the same trick Gaara did with Madara's imperfect Susanoo can be done with Madara's PS.
2. A part of that rock could be out of the water. That happened of-panel.
3. They wont split faster than PS swings its blades. PS's shockwave kills Nagato.

Realy? Even if he makes PS's shockwaves?



> Now why isn't ST strong enough to stop the shockwaves? Especially from a Prime Nagato
> One shockwave will double the shitload amount there was before another one would only double that amount. the more they double the less effective his shockwaves would get.



Because it has no feats to say it can stop PS's shockwaves.



> Prove that Nagato ca't summon more than 3 headed Cerberuses. A limit was never placed on them stop putting limits on things.
> 
> Madara doesn't know about CST
> 
> You seem to get Preta's absorbing effect and voiding effect confused. It took time to absorb attacks but when in contact with the barrier the attack was voided.



I have never seen him summoning more than 3 Cerberuses.

But Madara's imperfect Susanoo can withstand CST, although it will be damaged. PS wont even be pushed back with it. 

You still have to prove Madara's PS will be completely voided from its lower part to its hands and head. His foot can be voided to some degree, but its hands will be able to move and slash Nagato with shockwaves.



> Pein's Gravitation Manipulation solo's some shitty wind blown off by Madara's sword swing.
> 
> If people could survive the Kyuubi's tales then they can easily survive Madara's wind slices.
> ...gassed.



PS's slashes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kyuubi's tales. 

As for those shockwaves, they have kinetic force to cut mountains and material, which could withstand Bijuu Damas explosion without any problem. Nagato has no feats with his ST to say he can stop PS's shockwaves.


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## Bkprince33 (Mar 3, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> When has Nagato ever needed to do so?
> DB said rinnegan makes you immune to visual genjutsu. Ontop of that they have chakra receivers all over them so  Nagato still has control over them.



exactly he has never needed to, and never seen PS before, so how would he automatically know to use cerberus as a meat shield????



That hasn't been proven to be 100% accurate.




chakra receivers doesn't negate genjutsu as the 6th paths of pain, was canonically effected by frog song.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 3, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> exactly he has never needed to, and never seen PS before, so how would he automatically know to use cerberus as a meat shield????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same can be said about Madara, his PS isn't coming out from the start of the match and he doesn't know about ST and it's variants. What can Madara possibly do at the beginning of the match if PS isn't coming out?

Yea they don't negate genjutsu but when being controlled to do someones bidding through use of genjutsu im sure they play a role because that's how Nagato controls them i don't believe a genjutsu can alter that.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Same can be said about Madara, his PS isn't coming out from the start of the match and he doesn't know about ST and it's variants. What can Madara possibly do at the beginning of the match if PS isn't coming out?
> 
> Yea they don't negate genjutsu but when being controlled to do someones bidding through use of genjutsu im sure they play a role because that's how Nagato controls them i don't believe a genjutsu can alter that.



The thing is - Nagato has no tools to kill Madara before his PS is out. Madara can withstand his attacks and pull out his PS when it gets dangerous.

And Madara can pull out his PS from the start after he sees Nagato's Rinnegan.


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## Thunder (Mar 4, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Hey guys... I just remembered something, you know how Madara's shockwave feat is so good?
> 
> Well it only mashed up a mountain face? Nagato is more durable than a mountain. In fact Madara's shockwave thing isn't even a feat, it's nothing. Sasuke got smashed into the side of a canyon rock face and didn't even break a bone? Canyon=Mountain... you're telling me something that can slash a mountain when all it requires is basic part 1 attack strength is enough to defeat Prime Nagato?
> 
> I don't think so...



It's funny how some people are trying to downplay Madara's perfect Susano slashes when a mere _warning shot_  cut up _two_ mountains. Right after that Madara remarks the maps  won't have to be redrawn as much because Hashirama isn't there. Comparing that display to a Part I fight is just silly. Let's be serious here.

Sasuke was pressed into a _statue_. Not two mountains. A statue that was erected in honor of the momentous fight between *Madara* and Hashirama.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 5, 2015)

Atlantic Storm;53002033[B said:
			
		

> ]The only times Madara has ever actually used perfect Susano'o is when he's had the Rinnegan active[/B].



If that is true which it isn't then what was Madara using at the valley of the end battle with hashirama?


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 5, 2015)

Thunder said:


> It's funny how some people are trying to downplay Madara's perfect Susano slashes when a mere _warning shot_  cut up _two_ mountains. Right after that Madara remarks the maps  won't have to be redrawn as much because Hashirama isn't there. Comparing that display to a Part I fight is just silly. Let's be serious here.
> 
> Sasuke was pressed into a _statue_. Not two mountains. A statue that was erected in honor of the momentous fight between *Madara* and Hashirama.


Rock is rock, earth is earth.

...mountain's don't mean shit in Naruto.

I don't care if part 1 Sasuke was sent flying through three mountains... he would have got up like nothing happened and continued fighting. 

The fact that a shockwave went through a mountain doesn't mean shit to me and it wouldn't mean anything to Nagato's body either. I mean it's not like these mountains were created by chakra, they were just normal mountain tops, in fact mountain top's are the weakest parts of a mountain you know but that doesn't mean much.


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## Thunder (Mar 5, 2015)

You don't think it was impressive? Like at all?

You're my new favorite BD poster, BV.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 5, 2015)

Cheers m8 


Of course it was impressive, he can move fast enough to create shockwaves. It was a monumental display of the Perfect Susanoo and it was beautiful. However shockwaves, seriously? We don't even know if it was a shockwave? It could have actually been chakra? Either way it broke apart a mountain top... a huge pile of earth and rock. When you come down to reality and you take your head out of Madara's Susanoo sword sheath you'll see it's not that great a feat.

Or air it could have been air?


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## Thunder (Mar 5, 2015)

Whatever is was, it was powerful enough to slice up those mountains and scare the Gokage. Imagine if Madara put a little more strength into the swing. 

I mean, we've seen Shinra Tensei get overpowered by 6-tailed Naruto. Perfect Susano is bijū level.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 5, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Cheers m8
> 
> 
> Of course it was impressive, he can move fast enough to create shockwaves. It was a monumental display of the Perfect Susanoo and it was beautiful. However shockwaves, seriously? We don't even know if it was a shockwave? It could have actually been chakra? Either way it broke apart a mountain top... a huge pile of earth and rock. When you come down to reality and you take your head out of Madara's Susanoo sword sheath you'll see it's not that great a feat.
> ...



 And CST failing to destroy a bunch of mini Katsuyu's is an incredible feat, correct?

 I hope you do realize that Shinra Tensei relies on gravity and that if that force of gravity cannot overcome the magnitude of the Shockwaves, then the Shockwaves completely negates the Shinra Tensei correct?

 I still don't see anything that suggests that PS can't just spam Shockwaves at an incredible rate considering he was able to do so against Hashirama, so eventually, Nagato does get overwhelmed. 

 I don't know where you got mountain range busting as not that great of a feat when Nagato can't bust a mountain to begin with.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 6, 2015)

Shinra tensei reppels everything, it was said. Don't matter the mass and power.

The only thing that can overwhelm the Shinra Tensei, it's a resistant force. Kyuubi 6 tails couldn't resist that shinra tensei in normal conditions. The thing is: He knew about Shinra Tensei and he dragged himself with the solo.

these

Nagato in that case never expected that, and, because of that, the force he used wasn't enough to push out the ground too.

However, a ten tails attack was reppeled by Hyuugas: these
these

And ur saying that Shinra Tensei can't repel susano'o attacks?

pfff

that's why i just gave up on this topic. U talk like Madara Perfect Susano'o can overwhelm people like Nagato just with that perfect susano'o, and that's no sense.

Madara only wins with that if he captures nagato in delay. But that's extremely difficult, because he don't even know about it.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 6, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Shinra tensei reppels everything, it was said. Don't matter the mass and power.



 That sounds illogical. A force of gravity is influenced by the mass of an object and you're telling me that mass does not matter?



> The only thing that can overwhelm the Shinra Tensei, it's a * resistant force *. Kyuubi 6 tails couldn't resist that shinra tensei in normal conditions. The thing is: He knew about Shinra Tensei and he dragged himself with the solo.



 You just said it yourself. Shockwaves are a resistant force.

* Weight * is a * resistant *force. This is basic Physics bruh.

 Perfect Susanoo is a lot more massive than the force of CST, so he's not getting blown away. Especially not when a bunch of buildings couldn't be blown away/ into smithereens.



> these
> 
> Nagato in that case never expected that, and, because of that, the force he used wasn't enough to push out the ground too.



 I honestly can't even pull up the scan though you're likely referring to KN6 Naruto in which that case, Nagato has clearly shown to manipulate the force of gravity while actually using a technique.

 I hope you do realize Susanoo can just stick it's hand into the ground like Sasuke did against Baku and then repel the force back at Nagato considering his Susanoo a lot more massive and durable than KN6 Naruto. If he wanted to, he could make his Susanoo Bijuu-sized without PS and you know a Bijuu level construct is far superior to a V2 Jin.



> However, a ten tails attack was reppeled by Hyuugas: these
> these



 Totally irrelevant. I hope you do realize Kaiten couldn't completely negate the Juubi's attacks as they started to pierce through Kaiten due to not generating enough speed. But still, this was irrelevant to the discussion.



> And ur saying that Shinra Tensei can't repel susano'o attacks?
> 
> pfff



 You're telling me that ST ignores Mass, when * Weight * is influenced by Mass and the constant gravitational force and Weight is a resistant force and you're telling me it's ignored when you're outright saying that the only thing that can counter ST is a resistant force? You dug yourself into a hole with that statement.


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2015)

@narutoX28 you got solid points there. i wouldnt bother though. apparently ST which is gravitational force isnt affected by the mass of the object it is pushing. F=ma


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## StarWanderer (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Cheers m8
> 
> 
> Of course it was impressive, he can move fast enough to create shockwaves. It was a monumental display of the Perfect Susanoo and it was beautiful. However shockwaves, seriously? We don't even know if it was a shockwave? It could have actually been chakra? Either way it broke apart a mountain top... a huge pile of earth and rock. When you come down to reality and you take your head out of Madara's Susanoo sword sheath you'll see it's not that great a feat.
> ...



There is no indication in the manga that it was a chakra. Madara was just swinging and creating shockwaves. It was a physical after-effect of Susanoo blade's swing. 

It could be air, but simple air is not a chakra and Nagato gets killed. 

A huge, dence pile of earth and rock which only limited amount of shinobi could destroy in 1 hit, or easily cut in 1 hit. Also, Madara could cut Hashirama's mokuton constructs with it. 

By the way, you are on the right way to get banned because of your debating style. I wont be surprised if you'll get banned.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> And CST failing to destroy a bunch of mini Katsuyu's is an incredible feat, correct?
> 
> I hope you do realize that Shinra Tensei relies on gravity and that if that force of gravity cannot overcome the magnitude of the Shockwaves, then the Shockwaves completely negates the Shinra Tensei correct?
> 
> ...


Not that i care, but That failing to destroy mini slugs argument you have is really terrible. It wasn't directly focused on them but rather Konoha as a whole. That's like saying an atomic bomb failed to kill a couple ants despite it eradicating everything else.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @narutoX28 you got solid points there. i wouldnt bother though. apparently ST which is gravitational force isnt affected by the mass of the object it is pushing. F=ma



Shinra Tentei isn't a PURE gravity force like Banshou Te'in,.

I already said it once, and took a databook 4 statement.

Banshou ten'in is gg for madara


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## StarWanderer (Mar 6, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Shinra Tentei isn't a PURE gravity force like Banshou Te'in,.
> 
> I already said it once, and took a databook 4 statement.
> 
> Banshou ten'in is gg for madara



Banshou ten'in cant do anything to Madara when he is in imperfect Susanoo. PS is out of the conversation - Nagato cant counter it at all. 

PS's shockwaves are GG for Nagato.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 6, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Shinra Tentei isn't a PURE gravity force like Banshou Te'in,.
> 
> I already said it once, and took a databook 4 statement.
> 
> Banshou ten'in is gg for madara



 Actually, it's largely composed of gravity.

 This is because Deva Path's only ability is the ability to manipulate gravitational forces and Kakashi's statement implies they function in a similar way, so it's only logical that Banshou Tenin and Shinra Tensei uses forces that are heavily composed of gravity.

 Your poor excuse at refuting my points by telling us to look at the Databook statement that has already been contradicted shows your poor sportsmanship. I'm done arguing with you b/c you haven't even bothered to refute all of my points. You also fail to support your position with evidence.

 You claim Banshou Tenin is gg for Madara yet give no reasons why. Why does Banshou Tenin pull Madara out of Susano'o despite Gravity being heavily influenced by mass and has no feats to suggest that it can pull Madara out? All your points have been refuted yet you keep playing it off, ignore evidence that destroys your arguments, and just reuse the same bullshit. I'm totally done because it simply isn't worth it. At least Sanninme Rikudou is more challenging and brings out new discussions to the table. You just keep repeating the same argument even though it has been refuted over and over again which shows your unwilling to change your position and develop as a debater. GG, and good luck to anyone who wants to debate with this guy.


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## Bkprince33 (Mar 7, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Same can be said about Madara, his PS isn't coming out from the start of the match and he doesn't know about ST and it's variants. What can Madara possibly do at the beginning of the match if PS isn't coming out?
> 
> Yea they don't negate genjutsu but when being controlled to do someones bidding through use of genjutsu im sure they play a role because that's how Nagato controls them i don't believe a genjutsu can alter that.



A trump card doesn't = a ooc action so no the same cannot be said, your better off arguing nagato somehow beats madara before ps comes out because fact is, he will die once it happens.



Nagato cannot breach madaras v4 Susano with anything but a super amped up ST like the one that level konoha, or a CT, and if he does breach V4 it will only make madara amp up his susano.




Madara can just paralyze cerberus with the same genjutsu he used against E


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 7, 2015)

Man, keep calm.

I already proved why banshou ten'in works and u ignored. Nagato can pick the target he wants, and Susano'o isn't a wall, he just defend physical attacks. Look what Gaara did with Suna, and Suna is physic. Gravity isn't something physical.

Shinra Tensei it's repulsive force + shockwave, that's the diference. Read databook iv, and u will see that.

Shira Obiki = repulsive forces
Shinra Tensei = Shira Obiki + Shock Wave

Databook 4.

Gakido sucks every ninjutsu. Databook 3.

Ur saying ur arguments without reading the manga. That's ur problem. Kishi said himself, and ur saying that Kishi's a liar.

Zetsu himself, who knew Madara, said that Nagato was so fucking powerfull and NEVER expected him to loose for someone. 

And it was zetsu, the same guy who trolled Madara. He did the entire story, since everything had his hand on. 

It's too hard for Uchiha fans to understand that a non-Uchiha CHOSED BY MADARA is strong enough to deal with them, I understand. 

Nagato wins this since he nulifies everything ^^


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## StarWanderer (Mar 7, 2015)

> I already proved why banshou ten'in works and u ignored.



No you didnt. I countered your every attempt to prove it.



> Nagato can pick the target he wants, and Susano'o isn't a wall, he just defend physical attacks.



Yeah, if they are not completely covered in something. If they are, than they will be pulled with that "something" as well. Susanoo has the mass and is affected by gravity.



> Shinra Tensei it's repulsive force + shockwave, that's the diference. Read databook iv, and u will see that.



You want me to show you Databook statements that are contradicted by manga? I can show them to you.



> Shira Obiki = repulsive forces
> Shinra Tensei = Shira Obiki + Shock Wave



ST cant do anything to his PS.



> Gakido sucks every ninjutsu.



Yet couldnt suck Wood Dragon, a ninjutsu. 



> Ur saying ur arguments without reading the manga. That's ur problem. Kishi said himself, and ur saying that Kishi's a liar.



That statement was contradicted by Manga which Kishimoto himself wrote.



> Zetsu himself, who knew Madara, said that Nagato was so fucking powerfull and NEVER expected him to loose for someone.



Because there was no one on Madara's level at that time.



> Nagato wins this since he nulifies everything ^^



He cant nullify PS's shockwaves. PS shockwave - Nagato dies.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 7, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> A trump card doesn't = a ooc action so no the same cannot be said, your better off arguing nagato somehow beats madara before ps comes out because fact is, he will die once it happens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In some cases Trump cards aren't out of character but in Madara's case PS is. It's his last resort if stating that bringing it out twice is already shameful. He's arrogant.

Oh so you agree Madara doesn't bring out his PS immediately. Good
So he loses tf are you still debating for?
PS-less Madara gets exterminated by Nagato with much less difficulty. The rest of his attempts get voided effortlessly without PS. PS just helps him delay the inevitable a little longer.

DB stated Rinnegan is immune to visual genjutsu. So not happening.


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## Trojan (Mar 7, 2015)

Honestly, the ST Pain used on konoha is MUCH bigger than PS. And we know Nagato is even more powerful than that. Even though there is no reason to believe that the PS can block the gravity, people just give him silly ability because he is "madara", but, yet again, there is no reason to believe that Madara's PS can survive that huge CST, let a lone a stronger one used by Nagato himself.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Honestly, the ST Pain used on konoha is MUCH bigger than PS. And we know Nagato is even more powerful than that. Even though there is no reason to believe that the PS can block the gravity, people just give him silly ability because he is "madara", but, yet again, there is no reason to believe that Madara's PS can survive that huge CST, let a lone a stronger one used by Nagato himself.



Unstabilised PS withstood full Kurama's Bijuu Dama *unscratched*, while CST couldnt kill people under Katsuyu's protection...


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## Euraj (Mar 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Unstabilised PS withstood full Kurama's Bijuu Dama *unscratched*, while CST couldnt kill people under Katsuyu's protection...


If anything, that should be a compliment to Katsuyu. IIRC, nothing has killed any of her clones bar the Shinju itself.

In any case, I don't know why this is still going. Nagato doesn't have the stomach to put out to kind of power to put down Madara and full-body Susanoo for good. Too much effort.


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

He has Preta Path to defeat the Susanoo. That won't take any effort at all...
He can use the Gedu-Mazu as well.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He has Preta Path to defeat the Susanoo. That won't take any effort at all...
> He can use the Gedu-Mazu as well.



It will take lots of effort for him to absorb PS, if he can absorb it at all, because that Databook statement many people brought here was wrong, since Preta Path cant absorb any ninjutsu. And there are lots of Databook statements which were contradicted by Manga - the absolute canon of Narutoverse.

Nagato gets cut down after summoning Gedo Mazou. And that soul-ripping Dragon has no feats to suggest it can go through such a chakra mass as PS.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It will take lots of effort for him to absorb PS, if he can absorb it at all, because that Databook statement many people brought here was wrong, since Preta Path cant absorb any ninjutsu. And there are lots of Databook statements which were contradicted by Manga - the absolute canon of Narutoverse.
> 
> Nagato gets cut down after summoning Gedo Mazou.* And that soul-ripping Dragon has no feats to suggest it can go through such a chakra mass as PS*.



That is the lamest argument I have seen all day. There is absolutely NO facts to back up your claim. If the soul dragon can go thorugh people im pretty sure it can go through PS. Chakra has nothing to do with it.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 9, 2015)

Shinra Tensei used on Bee and Naruto IS ENOUGH to deal with the perfect susano'o. U guys can't see something so easy as this?

There's something called: Momentum.

He doesn't need to repel all the sword, just that part: Link removed

That black design can show u that. A mini-shinra tensei on that, and the tarjetory it's completely changed. The shock wave doesn't hit him, because he changed his trajetory.

Gojuu Ranshomon DIDN'T stop the bijuu dama, but changed is trajetory. Simpel this way.

Madara can't deal with Nagato. Nagato it's the third rikudou. Madara's the 2nd AFTER AWAKING THE RINNEGAN.

Nagato deflects sword, basnhou tenin madara or just absorves susano'o. Madara gets mad and lose.

This match is EASY. U can't compare a Rinnegan wielder (databook said that he used the eyes like the owner), with madara.

Madara's better than Nagato controlling the Outer Path. That's a fact. And it's better than Nagato controlling the Rinnegan, other fact.

But his FMS... Isn't compared with his rinnegan. 

I SAID FACTS. I SHOW MANGA. U SAY "NONO, NOT POSSIBLE - countered". 

lawl

Use manga for ur arguments pls


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## StarWanderer (Mar 9, 2015)

> That is the lamest argument I have seen all day. There is absolutely NO facts to back up your claim. If the soul dragon can go thorugh people im pretty sure it can go through PS. Chakra has nothing to do with it.



Chakra construct, which consist partly of spiritual energy, can be hard for Dragon to go through. 

And even if it can go through PS, EMS Madara can easily avoid it, just like Hanzo did. There is no proof Nagato can use any other technique while using soul Dragon.



> Shinra Tensei used on Bee and Naruto IS ENOUGH to deal with the perfect susano'o. U guys can't see something so easy as this?



Unstabilised PS withstood full Kurama's Bijuu Dama and ST used on Bee and Naruto is enough? That is one of the most stupid statements i have ever seen so far.



> He doesn't need to repel all the sword, just that part: Link removed
> 
> That black design can show u that. A mini-shinra tensei on that, and the tarjetory it's completely changed. The shock wave doesn't hit him, because he changed his trajetory.



First of all - anime is not canon.

Second, please, stop bringing here your fantasy as a proof of something. Wood Golem stopped PS's sword by his hands and took the shockwave on himself. It was strong enough to do something like that. ST has no feats to suggest it can do the same thing.



> Gojuu Ranshomon DIDN'T stop the bijuu dama, but changed is trajetory. Simpel this way.



Bijuu Dama doesnt have the kinetic forse comparable to PS's swing. And PS's blade, although attached to Bijuu Dama, didnt have the same kinetic force as PS's own blade swing, which, unlike Bijuu Dama/PS' blade's combination, created shockwaves capable of cutting mountains and Hashirama's mokuton constructs.



> Madara can't deal with Nagato. Nagato it's the third rikudou. Madara's the 2nd AFTER AWAKING THE RINNEGAN.
> 
> Nagato deflects sword, basnhou tenin madara or just absorves susano'o. Madara gets mad and lose.



Nagato was a puppet of Obito and Madara, he never was The Third Rikudou. That Rinnegan was never his to begin with. And EMS Madara as his PS to deal with Nagato's arsenal. Even if Nagato somehow survives after one PS's shockwave, PS can create multiple shockwaves.


Nagato cant deflect PS's sword unless you can provide a proof he can. You havent provided a proof yet.

Banshou Ten'in cant work on aither imperfect Susanoo, or PS. You have no proof to say something like that.

Its debatable if he can, or cant absorb PS. And even if he can, it will take a very long time for him to do that. While he is absorbing PS, PS can swing its blades multiple times.



> This match is EASY. U can't compare a Rinnegan wielder (databook said that he used the eyes like the owner), with madara.
> 
> Madara's better than Nagato controlling the Outer Path. That's a fact. And it's better than Nagato controlling the Rinnegan, other fact.



Yes - its easy in Madara's favor if he pulls out PS. With PS, EMS Madara is a whole tier above Nagato.

And yes - we can compare The Rinnegan user to EMS user.

And lol, like an owner? Show me a proof Nagato could use their full potential. 



> But his FMS... Isn't compared with his rinnegan.
> 
> I SAID FACTS. I SHOW MANGA. U SAY "NONO, NOT POSSIBLE - countered".
> 
> ...



Not FMS, but EMS. 

And yeah - i use the manga for my arguements. You are trying to use your fantasy as a proof of something.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 10, 2015)

Didn't see a link, Star. Well use of manga.

And isn't EMS, it's FMS. Fuumetsu Mangekyou Sharingan

And ur not getting it. All the shockwave was going to fail Nagato, not because he defends all the shock wave, but because the sword is going to get another trajet.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 10, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Didn't see a link, Star. Well use of manga.
> 
> And isn't EMS, it's FMS. Fuumetsu Mangekyou Sharingan
> 
> And ur not getting it. All the shockwave was going to fail Nagato, not because he defends all the shock wave, but because the sword is going to get another trajet.



My internet was too bad to put here any links.

Ok, you have a point. FMS it is.

PS's hand movements are too powerfull, as the sword itself, for Nagato to change the trajectory. Thats the point - PS is the ultimate Nagato killer. Because its blade swings cant be countered by Nagato's Rinnegan arsenal.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 10, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> My internet was too bad to put here any links.
> 
> Ok, you have a point. FMS it is.
> 
> PS's hand movements are too powerfull, as the sword itself, for Nagato to change the trajectory. Thats the point - PS is the ultimate Nagato killer. Because its blade swings cant be countered by Nagato's Rinnegan arsenal.



Search o ngoogle about "momentum".

Sword is too big, and that's the good thing about her. A mini-repel force on, and it's enough.

Madara can't win this, that's obvious.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Search o ngoogle about "momentum".
> 
> Sword is too big, and that's the good thing about her. A mini-repel force on, and it's enough.
> 
> Madara can't win this, that's obvious.



No it is not because of the sheer physical force of the blade swing. It is not enough. Nagato cant win because he has no counter to PS's blade swing, which is powerfull enough to create mountain-cutting shockwaves.

Also, shockwaves have big AoE. Remember how Gokage were flying away? The same thing gonna happen to Nagato if he somehow avoids the direct hit.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> No it is not because of the sheer physical force of the blade swing. It is not enough. Nagato cant win because he has no counter to PS's blade swing, which is powerfull enough to create mountain-cutting shockwaves.
> 
> Also, shockwaves have big AoE. Remember how Gokage were flying away? The same thing gonna happen to Nagato if he somehow avoids the direct hit.



I know. But that's why changing the trajetory works.

If u look at that montain that got cutted in half, it was the same trajetory than the sword did. Exacly the same, it was like the sword attacked it direcly without doing it. 

But, if the trajetory changes, the shock wave does it too.

And also, Madara has no knowledge about Nagato's jutsu, what includes the rinnegan. That's why, on the first topic, the autor wrote: NO KNOWLEDGE.

So, manga facts here about Rinnegan that Madara saw, doesn't count. Nagato wins before PS, and wins after PS, attracting him from his susano'o without him even knowing that he could do that (like gaara did with suna, but using gravity instead of the ground suna), since PS has legs. However, Polem resulted, Sound-based genjutsus resulted, gravity results too.

My bad if u can't counter my arguments. In overall shinobi, madara is better, but he gets countered here by Nagato's Rinnegan (or should I say, Madara's Rinnegan?).

Madara admitted that Nagato could do a GREAT USE of the Rinnegan, the great doujutsu, because he was a Senju parentesc. Senju + Uchiha (Madara's eyes), and he is stornger than madara FMS (only Uchiha). 

3rd Rikuudou, Obito said it after Nagato's death. Is't about manipulation, he said it:_skid to a stop_

Madara said it indirectly. Madara Edo Tensei, Madara Senjutsu + Rinnegan, Madara Jinchuuriki are versions that can beat Nagato pretty easily. But this one, no. This one can't do shit.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2015)

> I know. But that's why changing the trajetory works.
> 
> If u look at that montain that got cutted in half, it was the same trajetory than the sword did. Exacly the same, it was like the sword attacked it direcly without doing it.
> 
> ...



Well, you have to prove his Banshou Ten'in can move PS's blade at least few inches from its trajectory. Because the sheer physical force was so great mountains were cut in half. The swing will keep going were it was going in the first place.

Imagine if the moon is falling on the Earth (yeah thats impossible, but just imagine) with a speed of, lets say, 20 kilometers per second. Do you think one nuclear explosion will redirect it to the point it wont fall on the Earth? No. The same thing is here. Nagato's Deva powers are too weak to redirect something as powerfull as PS's shockwaves.They can not just cut mountains effortlessly, but they also can cut Hashirama's mokuton constructs, which can catch Bijuu Dama and withstand Bijuu Dama's explosion. 

But ok, its not off-character to create The Susanoo to battle Nagato, especially after he witnesses Nagato's abilities of gravity manipulation and so on. Because of his Susanoo, Nagato cant kill Madara before he feels the battle gets too hot for him and makes PS, which is a surtain death for Nagato.




> So, manga facts here about Rinnegan that Madara saw, doesn't count. Nagato wins before PS, and wins after PS, attracting him from his susano'o without him even knowing that he could do that (like gaara did with suna, but using gravity instead of the ground suna), since PS has legs. However, Polem resulted, Sound-based genjutsus resulted, gravity results too.
> 
> My bad if u can't counter my arguments. In overall shinobi, madara is better, but he gets countered here by Nagato's Rinnegan (or should I say, Madara's Rinnegan?).



1. Prove he can attract Madara from his imperfect Susanoo. Let alone PS. We already had that conversation and you couldnt prove Nagato can do something like that.
2. Is there at least one instance where someone is pulled out of PS? At least one. 
3. No one have knowledge, inclusing Nagato. 

Cant? I counter your arguements on breakfest. 



> Madara admitted that Nagato could do a GREAT USE of the Rinnegan, the great doujutsu, because he was a Senju parentesc. Senju + Uchiha (Madara's eyes), and he is stornger than madara FMS (only Uchiha).
> 
> 3rd Rikuudou, Obito said it after Nagato's death. Is't about manipulation, he said it:_skid to a stop_
> 
> Madara said it indirectly. Madara Edo Tensei, Madara Senjutsu + Rinnegan, Madara Jinchuuriki are versions that can beat Nagato pretty easily. But this one, no. This one can't do shit.



Well, in fact, he wasnt a third SoSP. He was a puppet. Obito couldsay something like that because Nagato had 2 Rinnegans in his aye-sockets.

The Rinnegan is stronger than EMS, but EMS Madara is stronger than Nagato. Because Nagato cant use the full potential of those ayes.

This one beats Nagato as well, because of PS.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Well, you have to prove his Banshou Ten'in can move PS's blade at least few inches from its trajectory. Because the sheer physical force was so great mountains were cut in half. The swing will keep going were it was going in the first place.
> 
> Imagine if the moon is falling on the Earth (yeah thats impossible, but just imagine) with a speed of, lets say, 20 kilometers per second. Do you think one nuclear explosion will redirect it to the point it wont fall on the Earth? No. The same thing is here. Nagato's Deva powers are too weak to redirect something as powerfull as PS's shockwaves.They can not just cut mountains effortlessly, but they also can cut Hashirama's mokuton constructs, which can catch Bijuu Dama and withstand Bijuu Dama's explosion.
> 
> ...


Your only argument is how he brings out PS as soon as he sees Nagato's rinnegan. That's complete nonsense and illogical. 
What you should be arguing is how Madara doesn't get completely deracinated before PS is brought out.

I'm actually curious as to what you would come up with.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Your only argument is how he brings out PS as soon as he sees Nagato's rinnegan. That's complete nonsense and illogical.
> What you should be arguing is how Madara doesn't get completely deracinated before PS is brought out.
> 
> I'm actually curious as to what you would come up with.



He has his imperfect Susanoo, which can be damaged only by Nagato's CST, or CT, and absorbed by Preta Path...

His Susanoo gets realy damaged by CST - Madara is feared and brings out PS.

His Susanoo is going to be sucked in CT - Madara is feared and brings out PS.

His Susanoo is getting absorbed - Madara is feared and brings out PS. 

His reaction speed is a lot faster than Nagato's. He has much better feats. So he can pull out PS realy quick.

And than, Nagato dies.

The OP states no knowledge. But in reality, prime EMS Madara knew about The Rinnegan. So of course he can pull out his best trick in front of such a dodjutsu. Because he is smart enough to do that.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He has his imperfect Susanoo, which can be damaged only by Nagato's CST, or CT, and absorbed by Preta Path...
> 
> His Susanoo gets realy damaged by CST - Madara is feared and brings out PS.
> 
> ...


Oh so there's no knowledge?
Madara is done for.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Oh so there's no knowledge?
> Madara is done for.



In your dreams. In fact, he beats Nagato. Because PS is not restricted.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 12, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> In your dreams. In fact, he beats Nagato. Because PS is not restricted.


Yea and then Madara woke up.

PS isn't coming out at the start of the match and that will cost Madara his life. The outcome would be the same even if PS came out just more effort needed.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 12, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> In your dreams. In fact, he beats Nagato. Because PS is not restricted.



If you were confronted by a unknown enemy would you use your most powerful chakra taxing jutsu in your arensal without any second thought?


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## kingcools (Mar 12, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> If you were confronted by a unknown enemy would you use your most powerful chakra taxing jutsu in your arensal without any second thought?



yes. as its most powerful it will give you the highest chance of winning if you have no knowledge on your enemy.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 12, 2015)

kingcools said:


> yes. as its most powerful it will give you the highest chance of winning if you have no knowledge on your enemy.



Well maybe that's how you think but not Madara lol


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## kingcools (Mar 12, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Well maybe that's how you think but not Madara lol



so why ask what we think when you then resort to what madara would do


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 12, 2015)

kingcools said:


> so why ask what we think when you then resort to what madara would do



Because madara is in this fight?? I would think you would have some logic and reason to come to the conclusion that madara is a arrogant overconfident bully who likes to play with his victims before killing them.

Madara considered himself to be pretty much unbeatable second only to hashirama. If some random dude shows up with the rinnegan who he has never seen before he is going to give himself the benefit of the doubt that he could take him.

There is no knowledge in this fight so its logical to come to the conclusion madara will not just use PS right off the bat.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 13, 2015)

> Yea and then Madara woke up.
> 
> PS isn't coming out at the start of the match and that will cost Madara his life. The outcome would be the same even if PS came out just more effort needed.



It wont, as soon as his imperfect Susanoo is damaged he makes PS.

And Nagato cant counter PS. It cant damage PS, it cant do anything about its shockwaves. One PS's shockwaves and Nagato dies. It is highly debatable if he can absorb PS, to be honest. And even if he can, PS will swing and Nagato dies before fully absorbing PS. 



> If you were confronted by a unknown enemy would you use your most powerful chakra taxing jutsu in your arensal without any second thought?



You dont get it, do you? As soon as his imperfect Susanoo gets realy damaged, absorbed or sucked by CT, Madara makes PS and kills Nagato.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 13, 2015)

And what is the Susano'o for a guy who manipulares gravity forces?

I can't get it, dude. Susano'o and the user were already proved to be 2 different bodys, since the day he passed trough the susano'o.

Kid Hashirama

Then we see Pain attracting some nail without touching the wood where he is nailed.

Here, we see Pain attracting Naruto without attrating the frog:

Link removed

Why did the frog fall? Why didn't he came for Pein's hand too? The frog was like a "shield" for Naruto, since he his body was on the front of him.

And Kakashi analise:

Link removed

He can PULL OR PUSH THINGS WITH HIM AS EPICENTER. What happened here?

Link removed

Stabbed by Shurado's blade when attracted for the epicener. This means Tendo was BEHIND Shurado Path.

If the tendo path wasn't the epicenter in this technique (since following what u said, he is not behind the Shurado Path) why did Kakashi said that he was the epicenter? BEcause he was being attracted for TENDO'S when he got stabbed.

U can't even see that he can manage to attract something not matter if other thing is on the front. WHYYYY can't u see this. Why can't u see this that Tendo Path choses the target!

Even the databook says it, "he attracts EVERYTHING HE WANTS". That jutsu IT'S ATTRATIVE FORCE, the jutsu Danzou used (who attracted ssusano'o) was Baku (suction) + Fuuton (against susano'o) AND ALMOST WORK. But, he was pulling EVERYTHING, completely different from what Nagato can do using attractive forces.

Also, gravity isn't a physical attack. Look this: _"[_I]Susanoo cannot defend against attacks which do not actually deal physical damage to it, such as strong lights and sounds,[18] sound-based genjutsu,[19] and paralysing pollen,[20] all of which can impair the user's ability to sustain it."[/I]

Gravity he can't defend too, it isn't a physical attack. Every body has gravity, Pein targets someone inside of someone, and it's going to do effect.

For example, a a magnet can attract some metal thing even with a paper on the middle. But, because of the papper (that works like wall), the metal can't pass THROUGH the paper. But Susano'o ISN'T a wall, what means that he's going to pass through it.

But u can say: "Well, he just needs to order his susano'o to don't let him getting pulled".

But then I ask u: Why will he do that if he has no knowledge? ANd, if he does that, all his katons, or jutuss the he uses while on the inside of the susano'o ISN'T GOING TO PASS THROUGH.

Guys, if u can't accept a easy thing like this just because u don't know what is attrative forces (DIFFERENT FROM SUCTION FORCES), there is just one answer for that: U don't want to listen other guys opinions and u try to force even Kishimoto's manga in ur own.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 13, 2015)

> And what is the Susano'o for a guy who manipulares gravity forces?
> 
> I can't get it, dude. Susano'o and the user were already proved to be 2 different bodys, since the day he passed trough the susano'o.
> 
> Sharks eat his body



In this scan, he could create a small Banshou Ten'in with a short range to manipulate just a nail.



> Then we see Pain attracting some nail without touching the wood where he is nailed.
> 
> Here, we see Pain attracting Naruto without attrating the frog:
> 
> Link removed



The same in this one. Created a small Banshou Ten'in to affect his neck. By the way, he said "ngh!" as if his neck was affected.



> Why did the frog fall? Why didn't he came for Pein's hand too? The frog was like a "shield" for Naruto, since he his body was on the front of him.
> 
> And Kakashi analise:
> 
> Link removed



He creates Banshou Ten'in from his sentre. Even small ones. Fine. 



> He can PULL OR PUSH THINGS WITH HIM AS EPICENTER. What happened here?
> 
> Link removed



That was already discussed. Asura Path could not be in the way of his Banshou Ten'in.



> Stabbed by Shurado's blade when attracted for the epicener. This means Tendo was BEHIND Shurado Path.
> 
> If the tendo path wasn't the epicenter in this technique (since following what u said, he is not behind the Shurado Path) why did Kakashi said that he was the epicenter? BEcause he was being attracted for TENDO'S when he got stabbed.
> 
> ...



Provide that Databook statement, please.

And prove he can create a microscopic Banshou ten'in to affect Susanoo's user. Sound waves can go through Susanoo, light can go as well, polen as well. But all those things are microscopic. 

He can create The Susanoo from the beginning. 

Or he can create it while being pulled, for example. And he can perfectly react to ST.

Hell, he can see CST with his EMS and make PS from the start. PS is an automatic win for Madara, because 1 shockwave is enough to kill Nagato.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 13, 2015)

Only reason Pain only pulled the nail out of the wooden plank without pulling the plank itself is because Pain only exerted a force that was bigger than the weight of the nail, but still considerably smaller than the weight of the wooden plank.

 StarWanderer, it seriously isn't worth it. He's regurgitating the same argument each and every time despite the fact that it's been refuted several times.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 13, 2015)

> That was already discussed. Asura Path could not be in the way of his Banshou Ten'in.



Again ignoring the manga.

Don't worth discussing with u, indeed. 

Nagato wins, but i'm out of this discussion. Farewell


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 13, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Again ignoring the manga.
> 
> Don't worth discussing with u, indeed.
> 
> Nagato wins, but i'm out of this discussion. Farewell



LOL its not ignoring the manga. Its you overestimating Nagato and his abilities.


----------



## kingcools (Mar 13, 2015)

prime nagato is a beast dude. chou shinra tensei owns pretty much 99.9 % of the narutoverse alone.
he is physically stronger than bee who is stronger than A which is pretty heavy.
TBH without knowledge nagato could potentially one hit KO madara by banshou tennin + immediate soul rip.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 13, 2015)

kingcools said:


> prime nagato is a beast dude. chou shinra tensei owns pretty much 99.9 % of the narutoverse alone.
> he is physically stronger than bee who is stronger than A which is pretty heavy.
> TBH without knowledge nagato could potentially one hit KO madara by banshou tennin + immediate soul rip.



As soon as Nagato makes ST, Madara makes imperfect Susanoo. As soon as he gets attracted, he pulls out his imperfect Susanoo, which prevents soul rip. If his imperfect Susanoo is heavily damaged, or gets absorbed, he pulls out PS and kills Nagato with one swing. Because Nagato cant counter a single PS shockwave.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 13, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> As soon as Nagato makes ST, Madara makes imperfect Susanoo. As soon as he gets attracted, he pulls out his imperfect Susanoo, which prevents soul rip. If his imperfect Susanoo is heavily damaged, or gets absorbed, he pulls out PS and kills Nagato with one swing. Because Nagato cant counter a single PS shockwave.


ST has no warnings. Plus since Nagato isn't hunting a Jinchuriki he isn't capturing Madara. So literally nothing is stopping Nagato from Boss size ST'ing Madara and getting him outta here. ST has no warnings so Madara gets expunged of the field. 

You mentioned PS coming out after his imperfect Susanoo. If Nagato doesn't end Madara before bringing out his Susanoo, He can just absorb the imperfect super easily and then ST him and that's game over

And yes arguing with you is really getting redudant especially with the other guy. As both sides just say they refuted points that they haven't truly refuted.



pluuuuffff said:


> Again ignoring the manga.
> 
> Don't worth discussing with u, indeed.
> 
> Nagato wins, but i'm out of this discussion. Farewell


Yea it really isn't worth discussing both sides aren't going anywhere. No point at all.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> ST has no warnings. Plus since Nagato isn't hunting a Jinchuriki he isn't capturing Madara. So literally nothing is stopping Nagato from Boss size ST'ing Madara and getting him outta here. ST has no warnings so Madara gets expunged of the field.
> 
> You mentioned PS coming out after his imperfect Susanoo. If Nagato doesn't end Madara before bringing out his Susanoo, He can just absorb the imperfect super easily and then ST him and that's game over
> 
> And yes arguing with you is really getting redudant especially with the other guy. As both sides just say they refuted points that they haven't truly refuted.



Powerfull enough ST distorts the earth while going around. EMS Madara can see that with his EMS and predict such a jutsu with his EMS. So Madara will create Susanoo. And if he predicts the Boss sized ST by his EMS he can create PS, which wont even be scratched by CST, or any other Nagato's technique.

Nagato cant end Madara before bringing out his PS, thats the thing. And it will take a time to absorb even Madara's imperfect Susanoo, which allows Madara to create PS.

Your points have been truly refuted.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 14, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Powerfull enough ST distorts the earth while going around. EMS Madara can see that with his EMS and predict such a jutsu with his EMS. So Madara will create Susanoo. And if he predicts the Boss sized ST by his EMS he can create PS, which wont even be scratched by CST, or any other Nagato's technique.
> 
> Nagato cant end Madara before bringing out his PS, thats the thing. And it will take a time to absorb even Madara's imperfect Susanoo, which allows Madara to create PS.
> 
> Your points have been truly refuted.



A quick way for Nagato to win is just summon mass beast army to distract then ST Madara into the air then ST just him and not his susanoo down to earth and soul rip him.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 14, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> A quick way for Nagato to win is just summon mass beast army to distract then ST Madara into the air then ST just him and not his susanoo down to earth and soul rip him.



 What the hell, ST him only when Susanoo is intact?

 Have you learned nothing?


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> A quick way for Nagato to win is just summon mass beast army to distract then ST Madara into the air then ST just him and not his susanoo down to earth and soul rip him.



nagato cant instantly summon an army. And even if he does, Madara can get feared and create PS. And he cant pull Madara out by Banshou Ten'in.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> What the hell, ST him only when Susanoo is intact?
> 
> Have you learned nothing?



I have learned that 95% of all arguments on the NBD are merely speculation and have little to no facts backing them up.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 14, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I have learned that 95% of all arguments on the NBD are merely speculation and have little to no facts backing them up.



 Gravity can't suddenly ignore the mass of Susano'o, so until you do, our point still stands.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Gravity can't suddenly ignore the mass of Susano'o, so until you do, our point still stands.



Nagato can ST snipe. Or did you not remember him targeting Kakashi only with the Nail? Also he targeted Kakashi only with a reverse ST. Mass of Susano? Its just chakra... Nagato could probaly just suck Madara down.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Nagato can ST snipe. Or did you not remember him targeting Kakashi only with the Nail? Also he targeted Kakashi only with a reverse ST. Mass of Susano? Its just chakra... Nagato could probaly just suck Madara down.



All of these arguements have been countered more than once. I wont even comment them. Just read my other posts in this thread.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 14, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> All of these arguements have been countered more than once. I wont even comment them. Just read my other posts in this thread.


I implore you to do the same ...a lot of your time here is spent skipping what people say, read everything even if it isn't directed at you.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 14, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Powerfull enough ST distorts the earth while going around. EMS Madara can see that with his EMS and predict such a jutsu with his EMS. So Madara will create Susanoo. And if he predicts the Boss sized ST by his EMS he can create PS, which wont even be scratched by CST, or any other Nagato's technique.
> 
> Nagato cant end Madara before bringing out his PS, thats the thing. And it will take a time to absorb even Madara's imperfect Susanoo, which allows Madara to create PS.
> 
> Your points have been truly refuted.


That's if he's not aiming directly at something. He can just use his palm and aim the ST directly at Madara like he did several times before. So again what is Madara going to see exactly? 

Imperfect Susanoo would be quick and easy for pain to absorb. When it gets absorbed ST will get Madara outta here.

Always stating nonsense that isn't true. You and that other guy are always the first to state that you've refuted points when in actuality you haven't at all. So stop fronting!


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 14, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> I implore you to do the same ...a lot of your time here is spent skipping what people say, read everything even if it isn't directed at you.


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## Grimsley (Mar 14, 2015)

madara wins obviously


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> That's if he's not aiming directly at something. He can just use his palm and aim the ST directly at Madara like he did several times before. So again what is Madara going to see exactly?
> 
> Imperfect Susanoo would be quick and easy for pain to absorb. When it gets absorbed ST will get Madara outta here.
> 
> Always stating nonsense that isn't true. You and that other guy are always the first to state that you've refuted points when in actuality you haven't at all. So stop fronting!



he is aiming directly at Madara, he puts Susanoo in front of ST and Susanoo takes the ST. Madara has EMS with which he can predict any of Nagato's moves without any problem. And his reaction speed is high above Nagato's reaction speed.

Prove that it will be quick for Nagato to absorb. And while it gets absorbed, PS comes out. One PS's blade swing and it is GG for Nagato.

I did, multiple times. You just continue to repeat things i countered already. 

EMS Madara is above Nagato because of PS. Nagato dies.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Mar 14, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> he is aiming directly at Madara, he puts Susanoo in front of ST and Susanoo takes the ST. Madara has EMS with which he can predict any of Nagato's moves without any problem. And his reaction speed is high above Nagato's reaction speed.
> 
> Prove that it will be quick for Nagato to absorb. And while it gets absorbed, PS comes out. One PS's blade swing and it is GG for Nagato.
> 
> ...


How is Madara going to know whats coming at him Gravity isn't seen. Plus Nagato has his Chameleon to completely mask him.

Incomplete Susanoo is just large not dense. Prove it won't be easy for Nagato to absorb. Nagato already absorbed Bee's V2 cloak almost instantly. 

Didn't know refuting points means countering arguments with arguments that have already been countered. Interesting.

A prime Nagato would end Madara he's outclassed. He can Pull Madara out of Susanoo absorb Susanoo has his Cerberus and ST barrier to tank the shockwaves. Preta also voids ninjutsu.

Oh and prove Madara can form PS while is incomplete is being absorbed.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 14, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> How is Madara going to know whats coming at him Gravity isn't seen. Plus Nagato has his Chameleon to completely mask him.



 Deva Path's powers don't use chakra? 



> Incomplete Susanoo is just large not dense. Prove it won't be easy for Nagato to absorb. Nagato already absorbed Bee's V2 cloak almost instantly.



 Madara can make his Susano'o Bijuu-sized or even bigger considering EMS Sasuke did it. He's not absorbing something the size of a Bijuu considering Kabuto didn't resort to that against Itachi's V4 Susano'o.




> A prime Nagato would end Madara he's outclassed. He can Pull Madara out of Susanoo absorb Susanoo has his Cerberus and ST barrier to tank the shockwaves. Preta also voids ninjutsu.



 Already disproven. 



> Oh and prove Madara can form PS while is incomplete is being absorbed.



 He can just shutdown his Susano'o and karate chop Nagato's head off.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Deva Path's powers don't use chakra?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Madara can sense build up in chakra? Good one.

Incomplete Susanoo may be able to get size comparable to that of a Bjuu but it's not as dense, Not even close. It still gets voided when in contact with the absorption barrier. Size does prevent nullification.
Your comparing Kabuto's use of Nagato's techniques to Nagato's use of his own technique. Good one.

You still haven't countered how PS slashes goes through several Cerberuses and then harms a Nagato who can hold up the ST barrier for precaution. You haven't countered how Nagato in his chameleon can just ST Madara without him knowing and end him.
Nagato pulled a rock out of the water. Madara is coming out of his Susanoo. Laws of gravity applies everywhere. Gravity is probably the only thing in this world that is truly absolute

And then Madara woku up. In reality he shuts off his Susanoo and a Boss size ST extirpates him.

Good argument.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> How is Madara going to know whats coming at him Gravity isn't seen. Plus Nagato has his Chameleon to completely mask him.
> 
> Incomplete Susanoo is just large not dense. Prove it won't be easy for Nagato to absorb. Nagato already absorbed Bee's V2 cloak almost instantly.
> 
> ...



His EMS gives him precognition. He'd know about that gravity jutsu. 

Yeah, EMS Madara would know where is chameleon after Nagato summons that chameleon. If EMS Madara sees such a big summon, he pulls out his incomplete Susanoo. 

You have to prove he can absorb it fast enough to prevent Madara from creating PS. Its up to you. 

And i wanna see Bee's V2 cloak durability feats. Also, i wanna see Nagato's reaction speed feats.

Dude, you proved nothing at all. Your fantasy about Nagato's abilities is just a fantasy which has no base at all.

You havent proved he can pull Madara out of Susanoo. I already countered your every attempt to prove that. 

And you havent proved his ST and Cerberus can stop PS's shockwave, which can cut through hashirama's mokuton constructs and mountains effortlessly. 

Pulls out huge amounts of chakra and stabilise them. He could stabilise PS while withstanding full Kurama's Bijuu Dama. Its up to you to prove Nagato's Preta Path can prevent Madara from stabilising PS.

Oh and Madara can simply use his Shunshin to go out of his imperfect Susanoo and then create PS. He is much faster than Nagato and has far faster reaction speed.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 14, 2015)

> Already disproven.



Where?

I can say it too: Check 

Check :d

Check 

Check Mate :d

This proves something? Nop. U did the same, so u didn't prove ANYTHING.

Naruto SM is sensor and never predicted Shinra Tensei. Itachi MS never saw chameleon and didn't predict ST.

Sorry Madara fans


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 14, 2015)

lol this thread is going absolutely no where. Everyone is just using speculation now. The clear winner is Nagato. PS may be hard to deal with but Nagato has far more weapons then Madara does. If you match both of them up together Nagato would win more times then not. Its just logic. They are both heavy weight contenders but MAdara is a one trick pony because all visual genjutsu doesn't work on Nagato not to mention all ninjutsu is absorbed by Nagato.

Despite having EMS its a bad match up for Madara. Is he really strong? Yes. But like I just said above Nagato has far more options to deal with him. If you refuse to believe that then you are just wanking Madara now and dragging this thread to limbo.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 14, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> His EMS gives him precognition. He'd know about that gravity jutsu.
> 
> Yeah, EMS Madara would know where is chameleon after Nagato summons that chameleon. If EMS Madara sees such a big summon, he pulls out his incomplete Susanoo.
> 
> ...


EMS allows you to see a move before it happens. He can't see the move in general. Good one.

As if the chameleon can't can't just go invisible and move. Tbh if Madara was truly the bitch your making him out to be he most likely wouldn't have been one of the final villain. Every simple thing Madara brings out PS for. That's how you know Nagato has him outclassed.

I wanna see incomplete Susanoo actually being dense. Nagato outpaced his own ST while being emaciated theres your feat.

Says the guy who has ran out of logical and even proper arguments so now has to spout fabricated claims. Good one.

You failed to counter that as BT can manipulate the gravity around Madara. Allowing Nagato to pull him from Susanoo. He pulled the rock from the water and pulled the nail from the wood but still can't pull Madara from PS. Interesting.

You have yet to prove how shockwaves that get significantly weaker the more distance they travel and the more things they go through can actually go through several Cerberuses and Nagato ST barrier and still harm him. Good one.

Thats stabilizing PS im talking about switching from his Susanoo into PS while being absorbed by Preta.

So its in Madara's mindset to start Susanoo hopping? Now that's interesting.

If Madara gets out from the safety of his own Susanoo hes done for. Nagato has a wider field of vision due to his summons.

You definitely shouldn't be the one talking about refuting arguments at all.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 14, 2015)

I bet a lot of those pages would not exist if people actually read what other people said before they actually post.





KeyofMiracles said:


> Lol, 64 pages full of retards who actually think Nagato stands a chance.
> 
> Fucking amazing.


No offense but you know jack-shit, mate. There are usually two people in these Naruto debates, someone who knows how Naruto fights go and those that don't. This thread is filled with those very people. The fact that you're calling some of them retards speaks volumes of how benighted you are to conduct such a debate.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 14, 2015)

The thing is: You are overating shock waves. 

Madara used 3,4 and didn't even touched the 5 Kages. They had NO DEFENDE against it. Nagato has Shinra Tensei, and still, he has no chances? Bitch please.

Also, ur saying that because a weak ST didn't repel Kyuubi 6 tails, it can't repel a sword?

Ok ok, i will just say what u want.

Yea yea, madara win this easy. He uses PS, he balances his sword 1 time, but nagato needs a CST to repel it and then he uses it again and gg nagato.

Nagato leve konohamaru, gg too easy

Madara wins easy easy pizi pizi. Madara's god FMS, he got beaten by Hashirama without even trying. Madara only lost because he wanted to bite Hashirama, all planned.

madara god, PS wins against everything.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 14, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> The thing is: You are overating shock waves.
> 
> Madara used 3,4 and didn't even touched the 5 Kages. They had NO DEFENDE against it. Nagato has Shinra Tensei, and still, he has no chances? Bitch please.
> 
> ...


The fact you're using Konohamaru's little performance which was distraction and underestimation shows you cannot handle a debate of this level.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 15, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> The fact you're using Konohamaru's little performance which was distraction and underestimation shows you cannot handle a debate of this level.



U should've understand that I was being ironic.

But no problem. Those guys got raped by the manga, so they started to refuse manga facts.

I show BT with Asura Path at the front. "He is not at the front"

I show a Databook statement about Gakido Path: "He can't absorve everything"

So, why should I try to argument with those guys am? Nagato wins this FOR SURE.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 15, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> *I bet a lot of those pages would not exist if people actually read what other people said before they actually post.*No offense but you know jack-shit, mate. There are usually two people in these Naruto debates, someone who knows how Naruto fights go and those that don't. This thread is filled with those very people. The fact that you're calling some of them retards speaks volumes of how benighted you are to conduct such a debate.



I agree. If people could read arguments, and the manga, and comprehend it correctly, a topic with an obvious winner wouldn't have gone on for 64 pages. You are probably one of the ones arguing for Nagato. Lol, those are the only people I expected to reply to this post.

And looking back at some of your points. Lol, you are part of the reason why this thread will never end. You keep saying shit like this:



> Hey guys... I just remembered something, you know how Madara's shockwave feat is so good?
> 
> Well it only mashed up a mountain face? Nagato is more durable than a mountain. In fact Madara's shockwave thing isn't even a feat, it's nothing. Sasuke got smashed into the side of a canyon rock face and didn't even break a bone? Canyon=Mountain... you're telling me something that can slash a mountain when all it requires is basic part 1 attack strength is enough to defeat Prime Nagato?
> 
> ...



I don't know if this is trolling, retardation, or a straight up desperate attempt at downplay..but it's sickening. I agree once again. There are those who know how these fights go, and there are those who don't. You are part of the latter.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Thats not very nice.
> 
> Please show us your argument then? And let me guess PS blocks everything right?



I could, but it'd probably literally be the same exact thing that others have said in this post, and since this thread has made it to 64 pages, somebody isn't listening. 



> lol this thread is going absolutely no where. Everyone is just using speculation now. The clear winner is Nagato. PS may be hard to deal with but Nagato has far more weapons then Madara does. If you match both of them up together Nagato would win more times then not. Its just logic. They are both heavy weight contenders but MAdara is a one trick pony because all visual genjutsu doesn't work on Nagato not to mention all ninjutsu is absorbed by Nagato.
> 
> Despite having EMS its a bad match up for Madara. Is he really strong? Yes. But like I just said above Nagato has far more options to deal with him. If you refuse to believe that then you are just wanking Madara now and dragging this thread to limbo.



What's amazing is that you have the nerve to say Nagato is the "clear winner", when feats, hype and portrayal favor Madara by a landslide. Taking out the Gokage w/ little effort at full power is far beyond getting taken out by a gimped KCM Naruto, Killer B, and Edo Itachi a few minutes after the third had joined. 


I could ask you to summarize your argument so I can reply, but that'd be a waste of my time, and a waste of your time, cause the argument will literally go nowhere.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 15, 2015)

Madara Edo was stronger than the FMS without Kyuubi dude.

Madara Edo had Rinnegan, PS, Mokuton, and imortality. Madara FMS has PS ONLY.

Also, u just helped me a lot. Madara Edo used his PS as a last option, why isn't ihm doing the same here? Because of his arrogance, he is going to fall BEFORE of using PS (still, i don't see why ps is a problem).

Madara died at least 2 times against the 5 kages. Imortality for the win.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 15, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Madara Edo was stronger than the FMS without Kyuubi dude.



PS is their strongest technique. Edo Madara is only more well rounded than EMS Madara. He's not stronger. 



> Madara Edo had Rinnegan, PS, Mokuton, and imortality. Madara FMS has PS ONLY.


And since when did more techs mean stronger person? Especially when all the new techs are weaker than your trump.

Not to mention it doesn't even matter since the Gokage were raped by PERFECT SUSANOO. Something EMS and Edo Madara both share, meaning my point stands.



> Also, u just helped me a lot. Madara Edo used his PS as a last option, why isn't ihm doing the same here? Because of his arrogance, he is going to fall BEFORE of using PS (still, i don't see why ps is a problem).



See, now you are assuming that Nagato will be able to finish Madara off before he manages to activate PS, which literally takes an instant, and then another second for stabilization. You are also assuming Madara will play with a Rinnegan user (and Madara does have intel on the Rinnegan in manga canon before he died) the same way he played with the Gokage.

Once PS comes out, Nagato dies a terrible ass death. Feats, hype, and portrayal all agree.




> Madara died at least 2 times against the 5 kages. Imortality for the win.



Yeah, because he played around.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 15, 2015)

There is no knowledge.

Madara knows shit about Nagato, what includes his eye and techniques. Or are u assuming that he knows about Limbo here too? z.z

And yes, PS isn't a problem. Gravity > PS


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 15, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> There is no knowledge.



No knowledge of each other *because they don't know each other as they are from different eras* ,  that shouldn't disregard knowledge of things Madara has during his own era. Madara knows of the Rinnegan's existence in his own era, so once he sees that Nagato has it, he'll put two and two together. Does that amount to him knowing that Nagato is a Rinnegan user beforehand?


No. So stop.



> Madara knows shit about Nagato, what includes his eye and techniques. Or are u assuming that he knows about Limbo here too? z.z



Read above pal. Limbo has shit to do with this.  Not like intel is relevant, not until you can prove that Madara won't be able to call PS before Nagato finishes him.

Empty claims are empty.



> And yes, PS isn't a problem. Gravity > PS



Not really. Nagato has no move that surpasses Kurama's Bijuu Dama in power by such an amount where it'd damage PS since it tanked the former with absolutely no damage. "Gravity>PS" is nothing but an empty claim with pretty much no logical argument backing it.

Based on that line alone, I can pretty much expect nothing but empty, hollow arguments from you from here on out.


When Nagato gets a move that is on par with Madara and Kurama's Bijuu Dama Barrage (12 Bijuu Dama at once) then we can talk about him defeating PS.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 15, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No knowledge of each other *because they don't know each other as they are from different eras* ,  that shouldn't disregard knowledge of things Madara has during his own era. Madara knows of the Rinnegan's existence in his own era, so once he sees that Nagato has it, he'll put two and two together. Does that amount to him knowing that Nagato is a Rinnegan user beforehand?
> 
> 
> No. So stop.
> ...



There's no need for a move stronger than a bijuu dama.

Polen countered Susano'o. Mugen Onsa countered Susano'o.

Do u know what they have in common? They are no physical attacks.

It's the same with gravity. Isn't about CST the Susano'o, it's about pulling out Madara catching him by surprise.

Nagato already pulled a rock from a river, a nail from the wood, Kakashi with Shurado's at front, Naruto with the Frog at the front, Naruto with Maw at back, a Rock without the entire mountain, this all means that he can TARGET what he wants with Banshou Ten'in.

Susano'o it's a Jutsu, but it's not fusionated with the user. It's not like the Samehada Fusion, or like a Bijuu Mode (where the Bijuu is sealed on the Jinchuuriki). Susano'o it's just a mass of chakra, but t's a 2nd body, and has another mass, another gravity, etc. That's why Madara got pulled out by Suna.

There are feats that Banshou Ten'in > Every Susano'o, since the day someone (Madara himself) passed *through it* (not bellow).


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 15, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> There's no need for a move stronger than a bijuu dama.
> 
> Polen countered Susano'o. Mugen Onsa countered Susano'o.
> 
> Do u know what they have in common? They are no physical attacks.



Lol....not even sure if serious.



> It's the same with gravity. Isn't about CST the Susano'o, it's about pulling out Madara catching him by surprise.


Gravity? Shinra Tensei is a repulsive force. Shinra Tensei is intangible, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still physically affecting it's target. Same goes with Bansho Tennin. Not sure why you are comparing it to sound, but it makes zero sense.



> Nagato already pulled a rock from a river, a nail from the wood, Kakashi with Shurado's at front, Naruto with the Frog at the front, Naruto with Maw at back, a Rock without the entire mountain, this all means that he can TARGET what he wants with Banshou Ten'in.



And in all cases, they were exposed to said force, unlike Madara who is encased in a full bodied suit of chakra armor.



> Susano'o it's a Jutsu, but it's not fusionated with the user. It's not like the Samehada Fusion, or like a Bijuu Mode (where the Bijuu is sealed on the Jinchuuriki). Susano'o it's just a mass of chakra, but t's a 2nd body, and has another mass, another gravity, etc. That's why Madara got pulled out by Suna.


It not being fused with the user is irrelevant. They had to hold Susanoo in place to remove Madara, meaning if you pull Madara, you pull the whole Susanoo. Meaning Bansho Tennin will pull Madara with his Susanoo, whether or not he focuses the repulsive force on the Susanoo or Madara himself, assuming that shit is even possible.



> There are feats that Banshou Ten'in > Every Susano'o, since the day someone (Madara himself) passed *through it* (not bellow).


Madara was removed only after his Susanoo was held in place, meaning if the Susanoo isn't held down, it gets pulled along with the user. Simple as that.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 15, 2015)

Sure.

That's why Sasuke's Susano'o passed through him when he was being affected by the suction force. And he wasn't  "hold" by some Suna. The fact is that some pollen passed trhough Susano'o, this means he isn't in a "cage". 

But yea, at least u try to use manga facts. Ur someone that I like to discuss with, not like the Sasuke-kun's avatar, and the other start guy.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 15, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Sure.
> 
> That's why Sasuke's Susano'o passed through him when he was being affected by the suction force. And he wasn't  "hold" by some Suna. The fact is that some pollen passed trhough Susano'o, this means he isn't in a "cage".



The suction wouldn't affect him personally, it'd affect his Susanoo as he is merely inside it. Pollen being able to get through Susanoo doesn't change that fact...and wasn't that only in filler? Cause Sasuke's Susanoo blocked out Mei's Mist before he tried to level up and failed.

[QUOTEBut yea, at least u try to use manga facts. Ur someone that I like to discuss with, not like the Sasuke-kun's avatar, and the other start guy.[/QUOTE]

Thanks man.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 15, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Not really. Nagato has no move that surpasses Kurama's Bijuu Dama in power by such an amount where it'd damage PS since it tanked the former with absolutely no damage. "Gravity>PS" is nothing but an empty claim with pretty much no logical argument backing it.
> 
> * Based on that line alone, I can pretty much expect nothing but empty, hollow arguments from you from here on out. *





 Checkmate. 

 You have just solo'd this thread.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Checkmate.
> 
> You have just solo'd this thread.



Not really you Uchiha wankers just keep using the same arguments over and over again so all the non Uchiha wankers just get sick and tired of the BS and walk away due to your insanity.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 15, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> lol yeah like PS > everything Nagato has even though Rinnegan >>> EMS
> 
> Keep living in your delusional fantasy land.
> 
> Keep sipping the Uchiha cool aid.



 PS >>> Rinnegan. That's why Madara who was anxious to fight Hashirama never used the Rinnegan against Hashirama as well as the fact that Madara needed his PS to bail him out of the Gokage's combination attack instead of resorting to his Rinnegan powers in order to do so.

 Keep sipping your retard juice. That's why no matter what, you make retard threads like UnWeighted Part 1 Lee vs. Kakashi. .


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 16, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> lol yeah like PS > everything Nagato has even though *Rinnegan >>> EMS*
> 
> Keep living in your delusional fantasy land.
> 
> Keep sipping the Uchiha cool aid.



Nagatards, or Rinnegantards in general are quick to fall back on this argument when feats, hype, nor portrayal support their argument.

You cry about "Rinnegan>>>EMS", but you forget two important *facts*.

1. Power of the Dojutsu is dependent on the power of the user. If Konohamaru took Nagato's eyes, would he be stronger than Madara? If we used the shit "Rinnegan>EMS" logic, we'd be saying that he would be. Is Nagato stronger than Indra because Nagato has a superior Dojutsu?

2. Nagato can't use the Rinnegan's full power as he is not the original owner. Madara had the Rinnegan, yet said PS was his strongest tech, his full power. I wonder why?


----------



## Trojan (Mar 16, 2015)

Because he had a fake Rinnegan as it was mentioned in the manga obviously.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Because he had a fake Rinnegan as it was mentioned in the manga obviously.



Lol, and guess what feats Nagato is getting in this thread? Feats from a fake Rinnegan.

Edo Nagato>>Pain, and Edo Nagato has the same fake Rinnegan, and his moves are on a different level than Pain's. That's where people are getting all these Nagato feats from, 

Madara's Fake Rinnegan is no weaker than Nagato's Rinnegan solely because Nagato isn't the real wielder. Madara having a fake Rinnegan puts him closer to the level of people like Nagato, but even then his usage surpasses Nagato's.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Nagatards, or Rinnegantards in general are quick to fall back on this argument when feats, hype, nor portrayal support their argument.
> 
> You cry about "Rinnegan>>>EMS", but you forget two important *facts*.
> 
> ...


What exactly is stopping Nagato from expunging Madara before PS is brought out?

And god the use of your terms is foolish to say the least.(nagatards) That's actually pretty trash.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> What exactly is stopping Nagato from expunging Madara before PS is brought out?



No, here's the question. HOW does Nagato defeat Madara before PS comes out? HOW does Nagato defeat Madara before he can think, and call Susanoo if he's ever in a pinch. That's a question for you to answer as you are the one supporting Nagato. 

The simple fact that Madara can call PS in an instant is reason enough for me to believe that Nagato can't finish him off before it's used.

Nagato literally doesn't stand a chance, the fact that you've started off your post by implying Nagato will finish Madara before he can call PS tells me that you know that once PS is used, Nagato gets slayed.. 

I cannot believe this thread made it to 66 pages. 



> And god the use of your terms is foolish to say the least.(nagatards) That's actually pretty trash.



Tards are called tards because tards use trash logic, like the logic I highlighted above. If you don't use this trash logic, then don't worry about it. Simple as that.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No, here's the question. HOW does Nagato defeat Madara before PS comes out?* HOW does Nagato defeat Madara before he can think*, and call Susanoo if he's ever in a pinch. That's a question for you to answer as you are the one supporting Nagato.
> 
> The simple fact that Madara can call PS in an instant is reason enough for me to believe that Nagato can't finish him off before it's used.
> 
> ...



Easy. Reverse ST/Soul Rip combo = one dead EMS Madara. Nagato supporters can do lame ass one liners to ,its easy. So stop rambling on about how we have no arguments.

And if all your going to do is insult people then please stop posting on this thread its getting really annoying and just makes you look like a scumbag.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No, here's the question. HOW does Nagato defeat Madara before PS comes out? HOW does Nagato defeat Madara before he can think, and call Susanoo if he's ever in a pinch. That's a question for you to answer as you are the one supporting Nagato.
> 
> The simple fact that Madara can call PS in an instant is reason enough for me to believe that Nagato can't finish him off before it's used.
> 
> ...


Boss size ST ends Madara

You fail to realize PS is Madara's very last resort. Only not hesitant to bring it out against Hashi.

Clearly you didn't see my other posts where i told how Nagato deals with PS. Evidently assumptions don't get you far. 
You have still failed to answer the question.

Oh and trust me im not sweating your garbage terms.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Boss size ST ends Madara



The same boss sized ST that only managed to break the bones of the Gama Trio? Toads who are nowhere near as durable as Susanoo? The best Susanoo that'd destroy is Ribcage, and maybe V2. Anything above that tanks it with zero damage.



> You fail to realize PS is Madara's very last resort. Only not hesitant to bring it out against Hashi.


Meaning when he's been forced to use it, he will use it. PS is activated in an instant. Unless you can tell me how exactly Nagato will finish Madara before the latter realizes he's in a pinch and then ups to PS, I have no reason to believe Nagato can finish him off in an instant. Nothing but pure wank.

When the Gokage pushed Madara to PS, did he use it? Yes. Same principle here. The fact that we are even arguing over such a weak point for Nagato only proves that the guy stands no chance against a full power Madara.



> Clearly you didn't see my other posts where i told how Nagato deals with PS. Evidently assumptions don't get you far.


No, I haven't, and I'm not going to sift through them in this 65 page thread. Either you summarize right here, or you stop replying to me as this will just be a waste of time.



> You have still failed to answer the question.


I answered your question, though I'm still waiting for you to actually give me a good reason why Madara won't be able to use PS if he needs it.



> [Oh and trust me im not sweating your garbage terms.



Then you can stop complaining about them.


----------



## Thunder (Mar 16, 2015)

Why would Nagato go all out at start battle against an opponent he knows nothing  about? How does "Prime" Nagato start his fights with no knowledge at  this distance?

No knowledge works both ways. Neither combatant has any information here.

I'm  not seeing how Madara instantly dies from a basic application of  Nagato's Rinnegan powers. Naruto, Bee, and Itachi (three shinobi less  powerful than Madara) didn't. Nor is Madara stupid. He's quite capable  of assessing how dangerous opponents and their jutsu are. That comes from years of  battling a shinobi who's _more powerful than Nagato_. 

Susano  is the only Mangekyō Sharingan technique Madara uses regularly. Thus  it's logical to assume it appears sooner than later. If Nagato starts  upping the ante? Madara will respond in kind. You know that means:  Perfect Susano comes out.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> *The same boss sized ST that only managed to break the bones of the Gama Trio? Toads who are nowhere near as durable as Susanoo*? The best Susanoo that'd destroy is Ribcage, and maybe V2. Anything above that tanks it with zero damage.
> 
> 
> Meaning when he's been forced to use it, he will use it. PS is activated in an instant. Unless you can tell me how exactly Nagato will finish Madara before the latter realizes he's in a pinch and then ups to PS, I have no reason to believe Nagato can finish him off in an instant. Nothing but pure wank.
> ...



Based on what facts? ck

See your just pulling arguments out of your behind rofl. Do I think Susanoo is more durable then the frogs? I would like to think so but who knows for certain?? You keep using such vague arguments for Madara like he can react faster then Nagato can? Show me something written by kishi or subordinates that says Madara can beat Nagato in a stand off? Oh yeah thats right you can't.



Thunder said:


> *Why would Nagato go all out at start battle against an opponent he knows nothing  about*? How does "Prime" Nagato start his fights with no knowledge at  this distance?
> 
> No knowledge works both ways. Neither combatant has any information here.
> 
> ...



When has he not gone all out against a opponent? Unlike Madara Nagato doesn't F around he goes straight for the KO. This battle doesn't have a reason its just happening. Just because we don't have a script for why they are fighting doesn't mean NAgato suddenly changes his fighting mentality.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 16, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Easy. Reverse ST/Soul Rip combo = one dead EMS Madara. Nagato supporters can do lame ass one liners to ,its easy. So stop rambling on about how we have no arguments.



1. Nagato has to be able to touch Madara before he can rip his soul out. Can't do that if Susanoo is active.

2. All he needs to do is burrow a Susanoo limb into the ground. BT countered with ease.

I didn't say you had no arguments. I just asked you a simple question. I suggest we read before we post. Like I said. If you aren't going to post anything of meaning, stop replying to me.



> And if all your going to do is insult people then please stop posting on this thread its getting really annoying and just makes you look like a scumbag.



I've posted more than just insults in this thread. I suggest you stop complaining and start dropping some reasonable points or stop replying to me altogether. What's ironic is that you are whining about insults, yet only 2 posts ago you were crying about Uchiha wankers. So you can dish it but you can't take it?


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> 1. Nagato has to be able to touch Madara before he can rip his soul out. Can't do that if Susanoo is active.
> 
> 2. All he needs to do is burrow a Susanoo limb into the ground. BT countered with ease.
> 
> ...



lol stop trying to be a keyboard warrior and be respectful. If you don't want me saying Uchiha wankers then don't call me and all the nagato supporters retarded. If you can't agree to that then your clearly a child still in adolescence.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 16, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Based on what facts? ck
> 
> See your just pulling arguments out of your behind rofl. Do I think Susanoo is more durable then the frogs? I would like to think so but who knows for certain?? You keep using such vague arguments for Madara like he can react faster then Nagato can? Show me something written by kishi or subordinates that says Madara can beat Nagato in a stand off? Oh yeah thats right you can't.



See, this is how I know a discussion with someone of your caliber is nothing but a waste of time. When your own points have been defeated, you offer useless critique of other people's point. Key word here is useless.

Is Susanoo more durable than the frogs? Going by feats, yes. It takes something on the level of Hirudora to destroy a Complete Susanoo with no lower body, and that's Madara's weakest form of the Complete Susanoo. Ribcage Susanoo was taking hits from from Weighted Ay and Byakugo Tsunade. Now. Where are the feats from the boss toads that'd put their durability on this level?

Oh wait, they don't exist. You are only questioning a point feats have proven because you don't have anything intelligent to add to the discussion.

Madara reacting faster than Nagato? Not only is this not relevant, being fast enough to blitz Sage Mode Naruto, and having a Choku Tomoe EMS which let a slower Uchiha react to Juubito, along with him having feats like reacting to Ay while Nagato has no feats on that level pretty much tells me that Madara's reactions>>Nagato's reactions.

My arguments are vague because I've chosen not to go into extreme detail. No post directed towards me has given me a reason.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> The same boss sized ST that only managed to break the bones of the Gama Trio? Toads who are nowhere near as durable as Susanoo? The best Susanoo that'd destroy is Ribcage, and maybe V2. Anything above that tanks it with zero damage.
> 
> 
> Meaning when he's been forced to use it, he will use it. PS is activated in an instant. Unless you can tell me how exactly Nagato will finish Madara before the latter realizes he's in a pinch and then ups to PS, I have no reason to believe Nagato can finish him off in an instant. Nothing but pure wank.
> ...


Yea you mean a Susanoo that gets absorbed easily. Good one. Once Susanoo is gone Boss size ST ends Madara.

That i agree with. If he is forced to use it he will. I was arguing that he doesn't bring it out at the start.

Yea then don't expect anything from me. I let lazy people do their own work. If you have no info on the other side then take your own advice and don't reply and keep it moving.

Not what im arguing. He obviously will bring it out if he's pressured, but it's definitely not from the start. Normal Susanoos get absorbed easily and don't even get me started on the rest of his arsenal. Nagato counters all that nonsense then a boss size ST leaves Madara resting.
Nagato can also mask him self with the chameleon's invisibility. 

It ended already so stop dragging it.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 16, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> lol stop trying to be a keyboard warrior and be respectful. *If you don't want me saying Uchiha wankers then don't call me and all the nagato supporters retarded. *If you can't agree to that then your clearly a child still in adolescence.



So, not only can you not form coherent arguments, you can't read either. I don't care whether or not you insult me. I just pointed out the irony of you complaining about insults despite throwing them yourselves. So to summarize:

Stop complaining about something you are doing yourself.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> See, this is how I know a discussion with someone of your caliber is nothing but a waste of time. When your own points have been defeated, *you offer useless critique of other people's point.* Key word here is useless.
> 
> Is Susanoo more durable than the frogs? Going by feats, yes. It takes something on the level of Hirudora to destroy a Complete Susanoo with no lower body, and that's Madara's weakest form of the Complete Susanoo. Ribcage Susanoo was taking hits from from Weighted Ay and Byakugo Tsunade. Now. Where are the feats from the boss toads that'd put their durability on this level?
> 
> ...



Isn't that what debating is? What school did you go to?

lol you must be a narcissist because after you post a argument all you do is say any rebuttal by your opponents are worthless lol man and you say my arguments are bad??


----------



## Bonly (Mar 16, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> When has he not gone all out against a opponent?



-Jiraiya. He started off with one path, then three, then all six. That's not going all out.
-Kakashi. He used multiple ST that Kakashi could get back up from and kept his distance until Asura path got to the battle field. That's not going all out.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yea you mean a Susanoo that gets absorbed easily. Good one. Once Susanoo is gone Boss size ST ends Madara.



Nagato has to get close and remain stationary if he wants to absorb Susanoo, and it'll take him a while to absorb it completely considering Madara's Susanoo are this large even w/o the use of Perfect Susanoo. Not to mention he has no way to stop Madara from just jumping away from him, given his mobility feats with Susanoo far surpass anything Nagato has done on his own.

So he tries to absorb it, but is evaded with ease. 



> That i agree with. If he is forced to use it he will. I was arguing that he doesn't bring it out at the start.


And I never said he'd bring it out from the start.



> Yea then don't expect anything from me. I let lazy people do their own work. If you have no info on the other side then take your own advice and don't reply and keep it moving.


The only reason I've replied is because you people keep replying to me. Lol. I didn't come here with the intent to debate, because I already know it'll be a waste of time. 



> Not what im arguing. He obviously will bring it out if he's pressured, but it's definitely not from the start.


Ok, and I never said he'd bring it out from the start. 



> Normal Susanoos get absorbed easily and don't even get me started on the rest of his arsenal.


Easily? He'll never have Susanoo in his grasp for more than 2 seconds let alone long enough to absorb the entirety of it.



> Nagato counters all that nonsense then a boss size ST leaves Madara resting.


Nope. He tanks it with susanoo.



> Nagato can also mask him self with the chameleon's invisibility.



Sharingan sees chakra. Chameleon can hide it's physical form, but nothing implies it can hide it's chakra. 



> [t ended already so stop dragging it.



Ironic coming from the guy who was dragging it out to begin with, but whatever mate.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I*sn't that what debating is?* What school did you go to?
> 
> lol you must be a narcissist because after you post a argument all you do is say any rebuttal by your opponents are worthless lol man and you say my arguments are bad??



Debating is refuting your opponent's viewpoints with a well constructed argument backed by evidence. It isn't you posting useless, junk posts in an attempt to invalidate my claims. That's why I even mentioned that the key word was useless.

I only say your arguments are worthless when they are, and in your case, they are. Me telling you how it is, and you not being able to deal doesn't make me a narcissist. I suggest we learn what narcissism is anyway, cause that isn't it.


----------



## Thunder (Mar 16, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> When has he not gone all out against a opponent? Unlike Madara Nagato doesn't F around he goes straight for the KO. This battle doesn't have a reason its just happening. Just because we don't have a script for why they are fighting doesn't mean NAgato suddenly changes his fighting mentality.



Pain Rikudō _never_ went all out from the start. Re-read those fights.

Prime Nagato only had one fight in the entire manga. In that fight he didn't go all out. 

So again: I'm wondering why people think Nagato would start with a "boss sized" Shinra Tensei so early, or something, against an opponent he doesn't know. And I'm wondering why such an awesome display of power from Nagato wouldn't prompt Madara to bring out Susano, which is clearly his best defensive and offensive option. 

As soon as EMS Madara felt pressured he brought out Susano.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Nagato has to get close and remain stationary if he wants to absorb Susanoo, and it'll take him a while to absorb it completely considering Madara's Susanoo are this large even w/o the use of Perfect Susanoo. Not to mention he has no way to stop Madara from just jumping away from him, given his mobility feats with Susanoo far surpass anything Nagato has done on his own.
> 
> So he tries to absorb it, but is evaded with ease.
> 
> ...


Incomplete Susanoo is not dense just large. On top of that part of Preta's ability is to void ninjutsu.

I never said you did i stated it and you replied argumentatively.

I was curious of what your answer might have been.

Yes easily. incomplete Susanoo isn't dense. On top of that Preta voids ninjutsu.

Susanoo gets absorbed and then he gets ST'd right after.

Itachi didn't seem to notice it.

My second reply was meant to end it but you kept it going. Not really seeing the irony.



Thunder said:


> Pain Rikudō _never_ went all out from the start. Re-read those fights.
> 
> Prime Nagato only had one fight in the entire manga. In that fight he didn't go all out.
> 
> ...


If Pain would have brought out all 6 paths at once against Jiraiya the latter would have discovered his secret quicker.

As for Kakashi, Pain did say he wanted to show the village "true Pain" I don't think going around Boss size ST'ing people unnecessarily would show the true pain he spoke off. Plus Nagato was emaciated enough so the least power he had to use before CST and his fight with Naruto the better.

We aren't talking about normal Susanoo we're talking about PS. And when pressured i agree PS will come out.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Incomplete Susanoo is not dense just large. On top of that part of Preta's ability is to void ninjutsu.



That's a Complete Susanoo, not an Incomplete, and yes, all versions of Susanoo are dense. The only thing that differs is how much chakra there is put into that. It not being as dense as a PS doesn't change the fact that Nagato can't absorb it in an instant due to how much chakra there is. 

And then there's the fact that Preta Path isn't going to stop Susanoo from moving, so if you are implying that...I suggest you drop it or get evidence.




> Susanoo gets absorbed and then he gets ST'd right after.



Orrrr....Susanoo jumps away and Nagato is left trying to chase it. Lol. And then eventually Madara brings out PS and one shots him.



> Itachi didn't seem to notice it.




Itachi wasn't even involved in the fight until he came to save B and Naruto.


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## Thunder (Mar 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> If Pain would have brought out all 6 paths at once against Jiraiya the latter would have discovered his secret quicker.



Wouldn't that go for Madara as well if he were in the same situation as Jiraiya? Pain is just cautious like that. 



> As for Kakashi, Pain did say he wanted to show the village "true Pain" I don't think going around Boss size ST'ing people unnecessarily would show the true pain he spoke off. Plus Nagato was emaciated enough so the least power he had to use before CST and his fight with Naruto the better.


Pain showed the village true pain by destroying it. Killing Kakashi before that wouldn't have changed his plans. Deva Path wasn't playing around there. He even admitted Kakashi was a dangerous opponent that needed to be put down. 

Pain just doesn't seem to use his boss sized Shinra Tensei willy nilly. I do realize Pain has to worry about the distribution of his power, but I don't think Nagato himself fights much differently. When it comes to bringing out the big guns early, at least. 



> We aren't talking about normal Susanoo we're talking about PS. And when pressured i agree PS will come out.


Gotcha. Wasn't sure because some are using Perfect Susano and Susano interchangeably in this thread.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> That's a Complete Susanoo, not an Incomplete, and yes, all versions of Susanoo are dense. The only thing that differs is how much chakra there is put into that. It not being as dense as a PS doesn't change the fact that Nagato can't absorb it in an instant due to how much chakra there is.
> 
> And then there's the fact that Preta Path isn't going to stop Susanoo from moving, so if you are implying that...I suggest you drop it or get evidence.
> 
> ...


I was just saying incomplete isn't dense. Complete isn't dense either their just big. Nagato absorbed V2 Bee almost extremely quick, and it was said to have the chakra of a tailed beast but just condensed. Even with how condensed it was Nagato had no problem sucking it completely.

Preta was said to void Ninjutsu. Susanoo is no exception. Preta was already said to be able to void Ninjutsu and clearly we say ninjutsu voided. You show me evidence of why it can't or your just going to be another cat disrearding the DB and Manga.

Why would Nagato chase it? Madara isn't doing anything effective from that distance. PS isn't coming out as he wouldn't have been pressured yet.

Itachi would have warned Naruto and Bee but evidently it didn't seem like he pinpointed its location.



Thunder said:


> Wouldn't that go for Madara as well if he were in the same situation as Jiraiya? Pain is just cautious like that.
> 
> Pain showed the village true pain by destroying it. Killing Kakashi before that wouldn't have changed his plans. Deva Path wasn't playing around there. He even admitted Kakashi was a dangerous opponent that needed to be put down.
> 
> ...


Yea but the difference is Madara's arrogance gets the best of him in most cases.

I would think him being healthy and actually in his real body would allow him to start dishing out the big guns unhesitatingly. But then again i see what you mean.

And yea i try to distinguish the two so we don't have confusion lol.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> I was just saying incomplete isn't dense. Complete isn't dense either their just big. Nagato absorbed V2 Bee almost extremely quick, and it was said to have the chakra of a tailed beast but just condensed. Even with how condensed it was Nagato had no problem sucking it completely.



"The chakra of a Bijuu" is something many characters possess. That V2 cloak is only a portion of Hachibi's full chakras, nowhere near the full thing, and it took Nagato a few seconds to absorb all of that let alone a near Bijuu Sized Complete Susanoo.



> Preta was said to void Ninjutsu. Susanoo is no exception. Preta was already said to be able to void Ninjutsu and clearly we say ninjutsu voided. You show me evidence of why it can't or your just going to be another cat disrearding the DB and Manga.



I'm not sure where this void Ninjutsu stuff is coming from as I've literally seen no scan from your side backing this claim, nor have I seen evidence backing the claim that Preta Path is magically going to make Susanoo immobile. 

So I suggest we get proof or stop with these posts. It's ironic how you talk about Manga and DB yet have posted no scan. I've just checked the DB and it says nothing that'd imply Susanoo wouldn't be able to move away. 



> Why would Nagato chase it? Madara isn't doing anything effective from that distance. PS isn't coming out as he wouldn't have been pressured yet.


I said eventually, not right then and there. You've failed to tell me how exactly Nagato is going to defeat Madara. All you've done is put Madara in a position where he can't finish Nagato w/o resorting to PS, so that is exactly what he'll do. The only reason this argument is still going is because you are trying your hardest to make it seem like Nagato will one shot Madara before he has a chance to call Perfect Susanoo, even though anyone who is reading this argument and the manga knows how crazy of an idea that is. 

Even if I agree that Preta Path will magically immobilize Susanoo. What does Madara do while his Susanoo is being absorbed? Does he just sit there and twiddle his thumbs while Nagato is about to finish him? Or does he use the one thing in his arsenal that can save his life? Hmm, I wonder how hard a decision this is to make.





> Itachi would have warned Naruto and Bee but evidently it didn't seem like he pinpointed its location.



Itachi wasn't even involved to begin with. I can make the same argument and say that he would've jumped in earlier had he been paying attention, but he only jumped in moments after that.


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## Trojan (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Lol, and guess what feats Nagato is getting in this thread? Feats from a fake Rinnegan.
> 
> Edo Nagato>>Pain, and Edo Nagato has the same fake Rinnegan, and his moves are on a different level than Pain's. That's where people are getting all these Nagato feats from,
> 
> Madara's Fake Rinnegan is no weaker than Nagato's Rinnegan solely because Nagato isn't the real wielder. Madara having a fake Rinnegan puts him closer to the level of people like Nagato, but even then his usage surpasses Nagato's.



Which only means if Nagato were a life, his feats would be even more powerful. 
Madara was only using the Rinnegan as an ET. I.E being able to absorb the Gokage's attacks, yet, when he was revived he became more powerful because of the Rinnegan.  

Madara's usage surpassed Nagato when he became alive, not with his ET self.  
when he returned to life he was able to summon the GM, which is something the Bijuu stated he couldn't have done so if it were fake, and he also got the Limbo thing. 

So, even though the Rinnegan is still power with ET, but it's still weak compared to a real Rinnegan.


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## Thunder (Mar 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Yea but the difference is Madara's arrogance gets the best of him in most cases.



Most villains do tend to fall into that trap. We saw this with Nagato / Pain when he was the central villain of the story. He talked down to Jiraiya and referred to himself as a god. 

I'll admit that Madara is more arrogant than Nagato. The question is, though, how much did his arrogant attitude effect his battle performance? Ask yourself this: _how many battles did Madara lose because of his attitude?_ That arrogance was always present, sure, but it was magnified when Madara obtained more and more power throughout the story. So it wouldn't be fair to say VotE EMS Madara displays the same level of arrogance as his War Arc Rikudō Madara incarnation, for example. I think some people are making that mistake here. 

After noticing Nagato wields a dōjutsu with incredible power I don't think Madara would take him lightly. If Madara charges Nagato and eats a Shinra Tensei, Madara will wonder what the fuck just happened and approach Nagato more cautiously next time. 



> I would think him being healthy and actually in his real body would allow him to start dishing out the big guns unhesitatingly. But then again i see what you mean.


Sure, having a rejuvenated body would allow Nagato to perform those feats whenever he wanted. But that doesn't mean he'll just bring out his trump cards right away. Most characters tend to work their way up. That could change depending on the circumstances as we see all the time in the Battledome, but here there's no knowledge. So Nagato doesn't have anything to be afraid of until he tests the waters first. 

I mean, if Madara brings out Perfect Susano early for whatever reason, I don't think Nagato would hold back either. But that works both ways.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> "The chakra of a Bijuu" is something many characters possess. That V2 cloak is only a portion of Hachibi's full chakras, nowhere near the full thing, and it took Nagato a few seconds to absorb all of that let alone a near Bijuu Sized Complete Susanoo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In most cases Density is more of a problem then size. complete Susanoo isn't dense it's just large. You'll find that things ith high density prove to contain more of something than just something that is large. To say that Nagato can absorb v2 Bee and still take a significant amount of time to absorb a complete Susanoo is moronic. Especially when this is prime Nagato with real Rinnegan eyes.

When a ninjutsu is in contact with the barrier it is voided that's how it works. Don't blame me if your not taking simple facts as facts. DB has stated that and the Manga has shown that several times
Obviously your fronting if you didn't see that Preta nullifies Ninjutusu it's apart of it's ability.

Simple he utilizes Preta absorbs Susanoo and ends him with ST. Plus he has BT to pull him out of PS. I'm interested to see your answer to these because clearly you have no proper argument stating what Madara would do in those cases.
Can Madara use PS while his Susanoo is being absorbed? Provide evidence.

Jumped in earlier? For what? They weren't having any problems until Nagato got into the Chameleon. This doesn't change the fact that he would have warned them. On top of that Shima would have been able to sense the chameleon but she didn't either.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 16, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> I don't know if this is trolling, retardation, or a straight up desperate attempt at downplay..but it's sickening. I agree once again. There are those who know how these fights go, and there are those who don't. You are part of the latter.


No mate, just no. Tell me... something. Are the majority of part two characters like Nagato, Jiraiya and Kirabi... more durable than rocks? 

Yes or no?

I'm not desperate as I'm barely paying attention to this awful debate. How dare you call my attempts that are clearly flooring you; desperate! ...where people like _I said aren't reading things or reading the manga_ correctly. A base Naruto removed himself from CT... base Naruto. Rock is nothing to the majority of Naruto characters. Yet you think a feat that smashed some huge rock will be absolutely fatal.

...like I said yes or no?


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> In most cases Density is more of a problem then size. complete Susanoo isn't dense it's just large. You'll find that things ith high density prove to contain more of something than just something that is large. To say that Nagato can absorb v2 Bee and still take a significant amount of time to absorb a complete Susanoo is moronic. Especially when this is prime Nagato with real Rinnegan eyes.



 It is dense in terms of chakra.

 Madara compared it to the power of a Bijuu (which should logically be 100% Kurama) and seeing as how Onoki commented on Madara stabilizing such a massive Chakra Construct, it's obviously very dense in chakra. 

 Really? Nagato would've been bleeding from a V2 Bee Lariat if it wasn't for the fact that he was an Edo Tensei which means he doesn't feel any pain. 

 Actually, Prime Nagato doesn't really have real Rinnegan eyes considering they're not his eyes. 



> When a ninjutsu is in contact with the barrier it is voided that's how it works. Don't blame me if your not taking simple facts as facts. DB has stated that and the Manga has shown that several times
> Obviously your fronting if you didn't see that Preta nullifies Ninjutusu it's apart of it's ability.



 Preta doesn't nullify ninjutsu, it simply absorbs what it's capable of absorbing, hence why Wood Dragon wasn't nullified which is also a Ninjutsu and hence why Nagato couldn't absorb Amaterasu. 

 Manga feats have proven that Perfect Susano'o >>> Madara's Preta Path >>> Nagato's Preta Path  considering Perfect Susano'o broke through the Gokage's massive jutsu combination while Preta Path could not, the same Preta Path that is superior to Nagato's.

 But you're obviously trolling if your only piece of evidence isn't straight from the manga. 



> Simple he utilizes Preta absorbs Susanoo and ends him with ST. Plus he has BT to pull him out of PS. I'm interested to see your answer to these because clearly you have no proper argument stating what Madara would do in those cases.
> Can Madara use PS while his Susanoo is being absorbed? Provide evidence.





 - Madara would not just sit there as Nagato absorbs his Preta Path.

 - Nagato ends Madara with ST even though Base Bee survived it, the same Madara who tanked multiple hits from the Bijuu? And before you say, "That was SM Madara," considering Madara can't utilize Natural Energy to augment his own chakra effectively, it's safe to say his durability remained mostly the same. That, and he outright stated that was very little chakra.

 - Bansho Tenin Madara out of PS?



 Hope you have evidence that a force of gravity can ignore the mass of an object when the Weight of an object is influenced by it's own mass. Basic Physics brah, but judging by your argument, you clearly couldn't have comprehended the basics even if you tried. .

 - Madara can just swing his other sword and blow Nagato away if he does manage to withstand PS due to Preta Path.

 But hey, tell me, what feats do you have to suggest that Nagato's Preta Path can absorb Madara's PS? Please use evidence straight from the manga.  



> Jumped in earlier? For what? They weren't having any problems until Nagato got into the Chameleon. This doesn't change the fact that he would have warned them. On top of that Shima would have been able to sense the chameleon but she didn't either.



 Nagato only got into an ideal position because he Shinra Tensei'd the crew while they were distracted, hence why he managed to separate Base Bee from the crowd. So in all honesty, Kabuto feeling the need to even separate each one individually implies that Nagato could not have taken them on as a group even with the Chameleon which Itachi should've detected with his Sharingan or KCM Naruto with his sensing capabilities had he not been concerned for Bee (who only got into a compromising situation because he was separated from the gang). Hell, Itachi Kunai'd the Chameleon, so obviously he did.

 This wasn't really meant to refute your argument, just to prove why Nagato is inferior.

 Also, Shima not sensing the Chameleon had more to do with the whole Sage Mode being retconned later on. Shima's a Perfect Sage, so the fact that she can't sense the Chameleon's Chakra clearly was attributed more towards a retcon than Shima's actual sensing capabilities.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It is dense in terms of chakra.
> 
> Madara compared it to the power of a Bijuu (which should logically be 100% Kurama) and seeing as how Onoki commented on Madara stabilizing such a massive Chakra Construct, it's obviously very dense in chakra.
> 
> ...


PS is dense. Complete, not so much.
Yea his PS. We are talking about complete here. Stop coming here with irrelevant arguments it gets time consuming. PS is dense, hence why it had to be stabilized. 
Real doesn't sync with owned at all. Edo Rinne was fake simple as that.

Preta voids Ninjutsu it is a part of its ability. as shown in the Manga and as stated. Wood Dragon wasn't nullified because it could absorb Chakra if it didn't it would have been absorbed. Get better arguments. Your extremely redundant.

Manga feats? Care to explain? Prove that Madara couldn't absorb the attack.

What's he going to do?
Boss size ST ends him. The Madara that took hits from tailed beasts absorbed Hashi. Good one.
How do you know he can't utilize it effectively? He said it will be easy to control. If he can't utilize effectively there was no point in him absorbing it. Good one.

Obviously with BT we see that Nagato can choose what he wants to effect. Like the boulder in the water. Now give better argument to why he can't pull Madara from Susanoo.

Preta voids ninjutsu PS is ninjutsu clearly. You tell me why he can't Clearly it's chakra. you have clearly no evidence of him not being able to and try to make stuff up. During the fight with Pain after Preta absorbs Naruto's RS he says that one can absorb any technique. DB states it also. 

Yea he kunai'd it when it wasn't camoflauged. That whole Paragraph and you still failed to give a proper reason.

Tbh please stop replying to me. It get's time consuming and annoying having to argue with someone who doesn't take what manga or DB says. So if your not willing to be considerate of both sides and even Manga and DB statements then just like the other guy, keep it moving.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 16, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> PS is dense. Complete, not so much.
> Yea his PS. We are talking about complete here. Stop coming here with irrelevant arguments it gets time consuming. PS is dense, hence why it had to be stabilized.
> Real doesn't sync with owned at all. Edo Rinne was fake simple as that.



 You claimed PS isn't dense and then you claimed his Inferior PS is dense. Great logic.



> Preta voids Ninjutsu it is a part of its ability. as shown in the Manga and as stated. Wood Dragon wasn't nullified because it could absorb Chakra if it didn't it would have been absorbed. Get better arguments. Your extremely redundant.



 There can't be exceptions to an ability that you claimed to void all Ninjutsu. Wood Dragon isn't an exception because it is Ninjutsu. 



> Manga feats? Care to explain? Prove that Madara couldn't absorb the attack.



 Actually, bad example after rereading the manga. I check myself here. 

 However, Madara himself admitted that he had to avoid Mei's Lava Release and couldn't stand making physical contact with it and had to dodge and resort to Susano'o to protect himself, so Madara cannot negate all ninjutsu with his superior Preta Path.



> What's he going to do?
> Boss size ST ends him. The Madara that took hits from tailed beasts absorbed Hashi. Good one.
> How do you know he can't utilize it effectively? He said it will be easy to control. If he can't utilize effectively there was no point in him absorbing it. Good one.



 - Boss Size ST can't end him, especially when he has Susano'o and can repel the force back at him like an inferior KN6 Naruto did.

 - Madara was also compatible with Hashirama's Senjutsu due to having his cells. Considering that the Cursed Seal was stated that it could potentially kill people and that Sasuke could handle Jugo's Cursed Seal, it's safe to say Madara could handle Hashi's Senjutsu because of that reason, but couldn't use Natural Energy as he has no feats suggesting he could. Only reason Sasuke managed to receive expected enhancements from Sage Chakra was due to Jugo's help (When it was used on Sasuke's V3 Susano'o) and the Cursed Seal passively absorbing Natural Energy, none of which Hashi's Senjutsu was implied to do.



> Obviously with BT we see that Nagato can choose what he wants to effect. Like the boulder in the water. Now give better argument to why he can't pull Madara from Susanoo.



 I have no idea what you're talking about until you provide a scan.



> Preta voids ninjutsu PS is ninjutsu clearly. You tell me why he can't Clearly it's chakra. you have clearly no evidence of him not being able to and try to make stuff up. During the fight with Pain after Preta absorbs Naruto's RS he says that one can absorb any technique. DB states it also



 I see, so no evidence from the manga was provided. Today is really a sad day. 



> Yea he kunai'd it when it wasn't camoflauged. That whole Paragraph and you still failed to give a proper reason.



 Fair point. However, you cannot deny that the Chameleon has chakra which the Sharingan is capable of detecting.

 Nice job at ignoring most of my argument by the way. Guess you couldn't refute it. Funny how people can't even concede for once like I have twice in just a single post.



> Tbh please stop replying to me. It get's time consuming and annoying having to argue with someone who doesn't take what manga or DB says. So if your not willing to be considerate of both sides and even Manga and DB statements then just like the other guy, keep it moving.



 Okay. Keep drinking your retard juice. Unless you can provide manga feats instead of statements from a contradictory source, my point still stands.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 16, 2015)

>_>

...where was it presented that Shima is a perfect Sage?


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You claimed PS isn't dense and then you claimed his Inferior PS is dense. Great logic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not going over everything you said because i am too tired and lazy.
But just some points.
I meant incomplete isn't dense, my bad. PS is however.
Wood dragon itself can be absorbed like any other Ninjutsu however it was never stated that Preta couldn't be countered. Now explain why PS is so special that it can't be absorbed and im not talking about making claims with no basis such as "too powerful".

BT pulled a boulder from the water in the in the Bee and Naruto vs Nagato and Itachi fight. why can't it pull Madara from Susanoo. Plus it pulled a nail from the plank so why is PS going to be different. 

As we clearly saw ninjutsu in contact with the barrier was voided.

The camoflauge argument is still up for debate.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 17, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> No mate, just no. Tell me... something. Are the majority of part two characters like Nagato, Jiraiya and Kirabi... more durable than rocks?
> 
> Yes or no?



See, the discussion has already taken a turn for the worse because you've started with the nonsensical false equivalences. I'm going to answer your question and then ask you one of my own. Yes, they are more durable than rocks. 

Now, are rocks the same as Mountains? Is a pebble as durable as a Mountain? Is a branch as durable as the trunk of a tree? 

Though I'm just gonna answer that question for you, because I already know you're gonna say something foolish. No, no, and no. Can Sasuke carve a hole in a Mountain because he can carve a hole in a boulder? Can KCM Naruto smash a Mountain with his chakra arms because he can smash a rock.



> I'm not desperate as I'm barely paying attention to this awful debate. How dare you call my attempts that are clearly flooring you; desperate! ...where people like _I said aren't reading things or reading the manga_ correctly. A base Naruto removed himself from CT... base Naruto. Rock is nothing to the majority of Naruto characters. Yet you think a feat that smashed some huge rock will be absolutely fatal.



Amazing. Just amazing. It's pathetic how people will twist and misconstrue the events the occur in the manga just because they don't want to admit that they are wrong. If this debate is awful your points have definitely contributed to that.

Base Naruto removed himself from CT? Did we (try to) read the manga with a bag over our heads? KN8 broke out of Chibaku Tensei, and then he reverted to Base. Like I said, quit with the pathetic attempts at downplay and maybe then will your points start to make a shred of sense.



sanninme rikudo said:


> In most cases Density is more of a problem then size. complete Susanoo isn't dense it's just large.



I suggest we prove this assertion before you continue, cause it seems that you are fond of throwing shit out there without a shred of evidence behind it.



> You'll find that things ith high density prove to contain more of something than just something that is large. To say that Nagato can absorb v2 Bee and still take a significant amount of time to absorb a complete Susanoo is moronic. Especially when this is prime Nagato with real Rinnegan eyes.



Except nothing implies that V2 B's cloak contains more chakra than a Bijuu Sized Complete Susanoo. Not to mention I never said it'd take a significant amount of time, I only said that it won't absorb it all before Madara can jump away.

V2 B's case doesn't even help you considering he took a few seconds to absorb it. Unless Madara stands there like a fool and lets Nagato absorb his Susanoo, the shit is never happening.



> When a ninjutsu is in contact with the barrier it is voided that's how it works. Don't blame me if your not taking simple facts as facts. DB has stated that and the Manga has shown that several times
> Obviously your fronting if you didn't see that Preta nullifies Ninjutusu it's apart of it's ability.


So you have no scan. I'll just take your concession since you are trying to invent abilities for your favorite's techniques, probably cause you know he doesn't stand a hell of a chance here. DB states that it absorbs Ninjutsu. That's it. This void bullshit you are trying to pull out of your ass only exists...well, in your ass. DB doesn't say it. Manga has never said it, and the fact you have no scan only 



> Simple he utilizes Preta absorbs Susanoo and ends him with ST. Plus he has BT to pull him out of PS. I'm interested to see your answer to these because clearly you have no proper argument stating what Madara would do in those cases.
> Can Madara use PS while his Susanoo is being absorbed? Provide evidence.



I figured that a discussion with you would be fruitless. I suggest we actually prove our claims when we make them. You've failed to prove that Susanoo will be rendered immobile and useless while it's being absorbed, so your argument is invalid. That simple.

BT? I already had a brief discussion with a guy who argued the same thing on the last page. They had to hold down Madara's Susanoo to pull him out, so pulling on Madara will only pull his Susanoo with him. 

See, Nagato fans just come with the same nonsense arguments over and over and over again that you can predict what they'll say before they even say it.



> Jumped in earlier? For what? They weren't having any problems until Nagato got into the Chameleon. This doesn't change the fact that he would have warned them. On top of that Shima would have been able to sense the chameleon but she didn't either.



Itachi would've had to be looking in that direction to actually see the chameleon. All we saw is Naruto looking around, and then Nagato's reappearance. So no, you haven't proved that Dojutsu can't detect it. Shima not being able to sense it means nothing either, because once again. Sensing=/=Dojutsu. Hiding your chakra signature=/=Making your chakra itself vanish.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 17, 2015)

Actually, If nagato uses 2 banshou ten'ins like he did with the rock and naruto, he can "imobilize" the susano'o at the same time when he pulls madara.

Attracting Susano'o for one of the sides, and Madara straight to him, do almost the same effect than the Suna. It's math.

About the Fuuinjutsu Kyuuin, ur thinking that Nagato's inoffensive but he is not. Madara's going to attack, ofc, but since he's getting absorved his power also get's weaker AND, Nagato can use Shinra Tensei for at least 1 sword balance.

Also, without knowing about the ST delay, I don't see Madara in a desesperate situation (losing his Susano'o), attacking with the same thing again.

He's not stupid. Jiraya saw that ninjutsu was being absorved, he didn't spam it.

Kakashi saw that he reppeled ninjutsu, he didn't spam it.

Madara's going to see that his blade got reppeled, he is going to change his style. That's why Nagato can use that to win.

I don't know why this thread as 67 pags. Nagato's level (compared to Madara) is weak, but his abilities counter him.


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## Trojan (Mar 17, 2015)

I wouldn't say Nagato's abilities are weak compare to him honestly. Unless, Madara is allowed to use Kurama...


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 17, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Actually, If nagato uses 2 banshou ten'ins like he did with the rock and naruto, he can "imobilize" the susano'o at the same time when he pulls madara.



Bansho Tennin doesn't immobilize. Lol. Your point fails right there. 



> Attracting Susano'o for one of the sides, and Madara straight to him, do almost the same effect than the Suna. It's math.



No, it doesn't. Pulling on both isn't the same as pulling on one while immobilizing the other. Not to mention Nagato is the epicenter, they'll both come towards him and nowhere else.



> About the Fuuinjutsu Kyuuin, ur thinking that Nagato's inoffensive but he is not. Madara's going to attack, ofc, but since he's getting absorved his power also get's weaker AND, Nagato can use Shinra Tensei for at least 1 sword balance.


His Susanoo only gets weaker if Nagato can absorb most of it, which he can't do cause Madara isn't going to sit there and let him absorb it. He gets away, and once he realizes normal attacks won't work, he enters PS and one shots him. It's really that simple. You people keep trying to say that Madara will sit there and do nothing while Nagato counters all his moves. That's ridiculous.




> Also, without knowing about the ST delay, I don't see Madara in a desesperate situation (losing his Susano'o), attacking with the same thing again.



How is Shinra Tensei's delay relevant to Madara not being able to defeat Nagato w/o PS?



> He's not stupid. Jiraya saw that ninjutsu was being absorved, he didn't spam it.


Yeah, he *did something to solve his problem,* but some Nagato supporters are desperate to say that Madara won't do the same.



> Madara's going to see that his blade got reppeled, he is going to change his style. That's why Nagato can use that to win.


So, Madara is going to see that his normal Susanoo's attacks are going to get absorbed, but he won't bring out PS...why again? Lol. It just sounds like you guys are making mad excuses at this point.



> I don't know why this thread as 67 pags. Nagato's level (compared to Madara) is weak, but his abilities counter him.



They don't. If they did, we wouldn't be talking about finishing him before PS is used.


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 17, 2015)

> Nagato is the epicenter, they'll both come towards him and nowhere else.



Before I said that u used manga facts.

But actually, I was just being a blind asshole. From what I can see now, u didn't read the manga.

Nagato used a Banshou Ten'in in a rock using the middle point between him and Naruto has a epicenter.

ALSO, I said "imobilize". Why did I use "" ? Because what he was going to do his using the gravity control to stop Perfect Susano'o from following Madara. 

And no, im not talking about the normal Susano'o, but the perfect one. And again, ur going against Kishi's own word.

Let me finish this discussion:

Banshō Ten'in

A power is seen that is absolutely unavoidable!
A god's palm draws in all creation!!

"One person among the Pain Rikudou, a Jutsu that manipulates gravitation pull is utilized by Tendou. With oneself in the center the ability to draw in all matter exists. The right hand, to the palm of this hand *the matter that makes up the target*, everything is forcibly (*literally whether one likes it or not)* *drawn in.* These are the *targets final moments, as there are no means to struggle against it, all must obey this gravitational pull. *

The gravitational pull's power can be useful, it becomes possible to distract and draw the enemy into an attack"
(1)
(1)

Trace a line between Kakashi and Tendo's, that's going to show u the perspetive. Tendo's corpse, and his hand, was BEHIND Asura Path. Still, only Kakashi's body got pulled.

(1)

Here, he uses his chain. Kakashi's body gets pulled out, but the chain didn't. Why? Because the attractive force only affects the target that was chosen.

- Nagato can chose a target even with something like a wall on front of him (Asura's Path)
- Only the target get's attracted when using banshou ten'in.

Now, let's give u another example:

(1)

See that? That rock came from where? Sea or space?

Let's just give a answer for both of them:

Sea:
Water has mass, rock has mass. Rock came from the sea, what means that Tendo can make his target (again).

Space:
Nagato has power enough to pull something from the space? If that's the case, I will just say that he?s going to pull out 3 or 4 meteors and destroy the Susano'os. 

Don't matter what, Nagato's Banshou Ten'in is the strongest technique in this match. And u guys, always underestimate it.

Also, in that image, i can prove what I said before. Nagato's not always the epicenter of the technique.

Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, if u want to talk to me, or at least win a debate against us (who say that nagato wins), use manga facts to prove that ur right. I see no manga posted by u, no link poster by any of u, u only say: PS -> shockwave -> win.

Ur putting Nagato on Konohamaru level, foreal. That's why it didn't worth debate against guys like u. I already said, Madara's a better and skilled ninja than nagato, and all his versions are stronger than Nagato (Madara with kyuubi, madara with rinnegan, madara edo, etc). But this one's Madara FMS, ONLY. 

Nagato wins here, dont matter how i see this fight. Also, Nagato has Gedo Mazo that can put a fight against Madara's Susano'o. Or do u think that PS > Gedo too?

If that's the case, i'm out of this threat, and now it's forever.


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## Trojan (Mar 17, 2015)

> . From what I can see now, u didn't read the manga.



Did you come to this conclusion by yourself, or did someone else help you? lol


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 17, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Before I said that u used manga facts.
> 
> But actually, I was just being a blind asshole. From what I can see now, u didn't read the manga.


And as I expected, you've brought nothing but empty, garbage arguments from the moment we started debating.


> Nagato used a Banshou Ten'in in a rock using the middle point between him and Naruto has a epicenter.


You argue for Nagato but you don't even know how his abilities work. He pulled the rock and Naruto towards *him*, which sent them on a collision course. I suggest you  take your head out of our ass and read the manga.

Crying about how "I don't read the manga" is pretty ironic coming from you though.

What does that panel say? Oh wait. That Nagato attracts and repels things using himself as the epicenter.


> ALSO, I said "imobilize". Why did I use "" ? Because what he was going to do his using the gravity control to stop Perfect Susano'o from following Madara.


I don't care why you used those. BT does nothing close to immobilzation, so you don't have a point. That simple.


> And no, im not talking about the normal Susano'o, but the perfect one. And again, ur going against Kishi's own word.


-Says Nagato can make others the epicenter of his jutsu.
-I say that it's Nagato only.
-I post a scan.
-This guy says that I'm going against Kishi's word.

Pathetic.


> Let me finish this discussion:
> 
> Banshō Ten'in
> 
> ...


Thanks for telling me something we already knew. Nagato can attract objects TO HIMSELF. Using Bansho Tennin. *"WITH ONESELF IN THE CENTER"* Oneself=User of the jutsu. So not only have you told me something I already know, you've shot yourself in the foot.


> The gravitational pull's power can be useful, it becomes possible to distract and draw the enemy into an attack"
> (1)
> (1)


Does that prove your point? No, it doesn't.


> Trace a line between Kakashi and Tendo's, that's going to show u the perspetive. Tendo's corpse, and his hand, was BEHIND Asura Path. Still, only Kakashi's body got pulled.
> 
> (1)
> 
> Here, he uses his chain. Kakashi's body gets pulled out, but the chain didn't. Why? Because the attractive force only affects the target that was chosen.


Which once again, doesn't prove your point. I've already replied to all this junk before in your previous posts. Repeating it isn't going to magically make it seem correct. Those things were exposed to the gravitational pull. Madara is not exposed as Madara is inside a solid construct.

Not to mention this doesn't prove that he can pull Madara w/o pulling what he's inside, what is attached to him first.


> - Nagato can chose a target even with something like a wall on front of him (Asura's Path)


Asura Path isn't comparable to a wall, because Asura only blocks the LoS, it doesn't block the force altogether. Kakashi is still exposed.


> - Only the target get's attracted when using banshou ten'in.


And whatever is attached to said target.


> Now, let's give u another example:
> 
> (1)
> 
> ...


We've been over this. Nagato being able to choose his target doesn't change the fact that he can't pull Madara out of Susanoo w/o binding it first.


> Space:
> Nagato has power enough to pull something from the space? If that's the case, I will just say that hes going to pull out 3 or 4 meteors and destroy the Susano'os.


If only Nagato could pull down rocks that large to begin with.


> Don't matter what, Nagato's Banshou Ten'in is the strongest technique in this match. And u guys, always underestimate it.


No, it's not. It's just the same Nagato supporters wanking the same moves.


> Also, in that image, i can prove what I said before. Nagato's not always the epicenter of the technique.



Anything else from you is fanfic kid. Sorry.


> Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, if u want to talk to me, or at least win a debate against us (who say that nagato wins), use manga facts to prove that ur right. I see no manga posted by u, no link poster by any of u, u only say: PS -> shockwave -> win.


Does my lack of manga panels change the fact that my argument is correct?

No.

Does it change the fact that my argument is supported by the manga?

No.

Does it change the fact that I could go search for every panel to prove my point?

No.

You can throw a million panels at me, it's not going to matter if your argument doesn't make a bit of sense, and even contradicts the same manga you claim supports your argument.


> Ur putting Nagato on Konohamaru level, foreal. That's why it didn't worth debate against guys like u.


So Madara, who has feats, hype and portrayal that puts him on a tier above Nagato's, beating him is saying he's on Konohamaru's level? You almost sound like a butthurt fanboy who's mad I'm not agreeing that his fav wins.


> I already said, Madara's a better and skilled ninja than nagato, and all his versions are stronger than Nagato (Madara with kyuubi, madara with rinnegan, madara edo, etc). But this one's Madara FMS, ONLY.


And Perfect Susanoo is more than enough to punk Nagato. Crying about how the others are stronger, and how it's EMS only isn't an argument.


> Nagato wins here, dont matter how i see this fight. Also, Nagato has Gedo Mazo that can put a fight against Madara's Susano'o. Or do u think that PS > Gedo too?


Considering Killer B, Naruto, Kakashi and Gai were beating the Gedo Mazo around, considering Obito felt the need to protect it from them with Kaenjin, considering the fact that it's best feat is destroying Kitsuchi's Mountain Sandwhich while PS cuts *multiple *Mountains with a swing, considering that the Gedo has no feat that puts it on the level of a construct that can only be destroyed by a bare minimum of an attack equal with a 12 Bijuu Dama Barrage from Full Kurama and considering PS dwarfs the Mazo.

It should be completely obvious which one is stronger, but hey, you're just gonna cry about me not having manga panels and me going against Kishi's word, despite everything I posted being in the manga.


> If that's the case, i'm out of this threat, and now it's forever.


Good riddance. One less headache.


Hussain said:


> Which only means if Nagato were a life, his feats would be even more powerful.
> Madara was only using the Rinnegan as an ET. I.E being able to absorb the Gokage's attacks, yet, when he was revived he became more powerful because of the Rinnegan.


Because it's real AND because he's the original user. Let's not compare what happened to his powers to Nagato's powers.


> Madara's usage surpassed Nagato when he became alive, not with his ET self.
> when he returned to life he was able to summon the GM, which is something the Bijuu stated he couldn't have done so if it were fake, and he also got the Limbo thing.


Uh-huh.


> So, even though the Rinnegan is still power with ET, but it's still weak compared to a real Rinnegan.


No shit. It's weak compared to a real Rinnegan used by the *original *user. Nagato is not the original user, so saying he'll get a massive jump in power like Madara did is pretty much a baseless assumption on your part.

But look who I'm arguing against. Lol, I'm not even gonna bother with this kid.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 17, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Because it's real AND because he's the original user. Let's not compare what happened to his powers to Nagato's powers.


Obito was not able to use his Kamui in his Juubi's host statue. On the other hand, Madara, who is NOT the original owner was able to do so. Explain. 


> No shit. It's weak compared to a real Rinnegan used by the *original *user. Nagato is not the original user, so saying he'll get a massive jump in power like Madara did is pretty much a baseless assumption on your part.
> 
> But look who I'm arguing against. Lol, I'm not even gonna bother with this kid.


Ignorant as always, I see. What should I expect.  
Explain the example above. Also, it's not "really" madara's eyes. It's Izuna's eyes. lol
Just like in Sasuke's case
4

but as I said earlier, you know about the manga as much as an ant knows about spaceship navigation. lol


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito was not able to use his Kamui in his Juubi's host statue. On the other hand, Madara, who is NOT the original owner was able to do so. Explain.



1. *RINNEGAN *was said to be stronger when the original wielder has it. Not Sharingan. Lol. Point fails right there unless you want to either prove that Rinnegan and Sharingan are the same, or that someone said the the original wielder can use Sharingan better than someone who took it.

2. Obito never said he can't use Kamui. He said he can't pass through things.



Madara never passed through things, he warped himself to the other dimension, completely. 






> gnorance as always, I see. What should I expect.
> Explain the example above.* Also, it's not "really" madara's eyes. It's Izuna's eyes*. lol



Is the bold relevant? 

Nope.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 17, 2015)

pff, why would the sharingan be any different? Kakashi gets exhausted way too fast because of that. Unlike obito who spam the shit out of it. The Rinnegan is basically another stage of the sharingan as well. 

phasing is basically teleporting a part of the body to the Kamui land, and Madara half a body, so why did that work with him, but not obito? 

- Yes it is. Because it's not really madara's eyes, just like they are not Nagato's eyes.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> pff, why would the sharingan be any different?



Different Dojutsu. That's like saying Sharingan can predict people's movement and cast Genjutsu, so why would Rinnegan be any different? Terrible logic.




> Kakashi gets exhausted way too fast because of that. Unlike obito who spam the shit out of it. The Rinnegan is basically another stage of the sharingan as well.


Except it's not. Sharingan is derived from Rinnegan, but it's not another stage. Except we are talking about the scale of said user's techniques, not their stamina and their exhaustion. Kakashi doesn't have the Uchiha blood, that's why Sharingan takes too much out of him. That doesn't have anything to do with the original wielder specifically.

But if you read the manga you'd know this. 



> phasing is basically teleporting a part of the body to the Kamui land, and Madara half a body, so why did that work with him, but not obito?


Sorry buddy. Obito made it clear what function was unavailable. There is no more discussion on that topic. Teleporting into the other dimension is NOT the same as moving parts of your body into the other dimension, while you are still in this dimension.



> Yes it is. Because it's not really madara's eyes, just like they are not Nagato's eyes.



Lol, only Hussain would be daft enough to pull this argument. Who awakened the Rinnegan? Oh wait, that's right. Madara did. Whether or not they are Izuna's eyes are irrelevant because those are Madara's powers now. Madara is considered to be the original wielder of the Rinnegan *multiple *times in the manga, so you can drop the BS now.


----------



## Hasan (Mar 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> pff, why would the sharingan be any different? Kakashi gets exhausted way too fast because of that. Unlike obito who spam the shit out of it. The Rinnegan is basically another stage of the sharingan as well.



Because Obito explicitly stated that Rinnegan's overwhelming power was driving him mad, messing him up inside out. Sharingan has had no such impact on Kakashi.



> phasing is basically teleporting a part of the body to the Kamui land, and Madara half a body, so why did that work with him, but not obito?



Phasing implies existing in two different planes simultaneously. "Complete" teleportation does not, so they are objectively different. Once again, Obito made explicit mention of the ability inherent to his right eye i.e. phasing, meaning (duh) it does not apply to complete teleportation. Stating how it works does jack to explain it. We know "captain obvious" that Kamui is teleportation; the contention is merely that the notion of it is applied differently, resulting in quite a few modes that both Kakashi and Obito have demonstrated.



> - Yes it is. Because it's not really madara's eyes, just like they are not Nagato's eyes.



Madara awakened the Rinnegan (Indra + Ashura), and is outright stated to be the doujutsu's original wielder. Rinnegan is not Izuna's doujutsu. Also, Kakashi's example cannot be applied here: case in point, Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Mar 17, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> I suggest we prove this assertion before you continue, cause it seems that you are fond of throwing shit out there without a shred of evidence behind it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi would've had to be looking in that direction to actually see the chameleon. All we saw is Naruto looking around, and then Nagato's reappearance. So no, you haven't proved that Dojutsu can't detect it. Shima not being able to sense it means nothing either, because once again. Sensing=/=Dojutsu. Hiding your chakra signature=/=Making your chakra itself vanish.[/QUOTE]
What you never attended school or something?

Once in contact with the barrier it gets nullified then absorbed.

It's not my job to educate people. You educate your self im not your teacher tf. We've seen several times when jutsus came in contact with the Preta barrier they were clearly nullified. If you choose to disagree go reread the Manga. Preta reverses chakra flow thus voiding it and making it ineffective. That's it's ability DB states that and Manga shows us that several times. Prove that it can't because you have provided no argument against this. So prove how PS isn't ninjutsu.

Like i said i don't educate the ignorant i just let them become more ignorant. I suggest you read the Manga and and see how Preta has nullified techs that have came in contact
Clearly we see BT gives the user the option of what it wants to control in several cases (nail on wood case rock in water case, and the list  just keeps going on) BT will control Madara and pull him out. He also has the option to use BT on Madara and then BT on PS

I shouldn't be hearing nonsense come out your mouth, considering everything you've brought to the table so far has been straight trash. And i know your not talking about predictable. Not only can i read you like a Dr. Seuss book, but you throw up the same arguments that have been countered several times over but your arrogance does allow you to see that. So rather you come here with novelty claims that have been relics to even this thread for months. 

Yea and i suppose when Naruto is sitting there saying where'd he go and looking around for him Itachi is just looking into the wind. Good one.

Like i've suggested to you before, if you have simply run out of logical arguments keep it moving because you coming through insulting and belittling people yet you yourself haven't brought one logical argument to the table makes you look daft.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 17, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Not going over everything you said because i am too tired and lazy.
> But just some points.
> I meant incomplete isn't dense, my bad. PS is however.
> Wood dragon itself can be absorbed like any other Ninjutsu however it was never stated that Preta couldn't be countered. Now explain why PS is so special that it can't be absorbed and im not talking about making claims with no basis such as "too powerful".



 So Preta Path can nullify all ninjutsu, but now it can be countered by a ninjutsu? Great logic.



> BT pulled a boulder from the water in the in the Bee and Naruto vs Nagato and Itachi fight. why can't it pull Madara from Susanoo. Plus it pulled a nail from the plank so why is PS going to be different.



 BT only covered a small "range", (if that makes sense), as it only needed to affect the rock's center of mass. The rock still pulled up water from the lake, so it's not like it ignored the mass of the water.

 If you need more clarification, when I mean small "range", just think of a tiny laser beam.



> As we clearly saw ninjutsu in contact with the barrier was voided.
> 
> The camoflauge argument is still up for debate.



 Because the ninjutsu never ever compared with a Bijuu-level Construct.

 Nagato also couldn't absorb Amaterasu, so 

 All right. Get ready for the camouflage argument soon.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> pff, why would the sharingan be any different? Kakashi gets exhausted way too fast because of that. *Unlike obito who spam the shit out of it. *The Rinnegan is basically another stage of the sharingan as well.
> 
> phasing is basically teleporting a part of the body to the Kamui land, and Madara half a body, so why did that work with him, but not obito?
> 
> - Yes it is. Because it's not really madara's eyes, just like they are not Nagato's eyes.



Yeah because he has hashirama cells. Im pretty sure if kakashi had some hashi cells he could spam kamui as well.

And don't use the "well madara said that hashirama cells didn't give him that much of a power boost" argument because im pretty sure madara's chakra pool is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kakashi and Obito.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 17, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Yeah because he has hashirama cells. Im pretty sure if kakashi had some hashi cells he could spam kamui as well.
> 
> And don't use the "well madara said that hashirama cells didn't give him that much of a power boost" argument because im pretty sure madara's chakra pool is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kakashi and Obito.



 Hashirama's cells have never been implied to reduce the strain Obito has using Kamui.

 But of course, Kakashi would be able to spam Kamui though despite his MS bleeding to death until he received some of Kurama's chakra which is downright ridiculous, but . Logically though, he wouldn't be able to spam his Kamui with his eye deteriorating.


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## Trojan (Mar 17, 2015)

> =Hasan;53131230]Because Obito explicitly stated that Rinnegan's overwhelming power was driving him mad, messing him up inside out. Sharingan has had no such impact on Kakashi.


and yet Nagato was able to handle both of them when he was a child. 
though I suppose this is one of Kishi's many BSing, and reteconns. lol 



> Phasing implies existing in two different planes simultaneously. "Complete" teleportation does not, so they are objectively different. Once again, Obito made explicit mention of the ability inherent to his right eye i.e. phasing, meaning (duh) it does not apply to complete teleportation. Stating how it works does jack to explain it. We know "captain obvious" that Kamui is teleportation; the contention is merely that the notion of it is applied differently, resulting in quite a few modes that both Kakashi and Obito have demonstrated.


Madara's half body was in the Kamui-space, and the other half was not though. 
Obito was not able to teleport at all in that battle, not parts of his body, not his fully body. 


> Madara awakened the Rinnegan (Indra + Ashura), and is outright stated to be the doujutsu's original wielder. Rinnegan is not Izuna's doujutsu. Also, Kakashi's example cannot be applied here: case in point, Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan.



The Rinnegan was awakened from the EMS, which were Izuna's eyes. The Rinnegan were also stated to be Nagato's eyes, and them Obito's, and so on, so it's not like the first time we get those type of things really..


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> and yet Nagato was able to handle both of them when he was a child.
> though I suppose this is one of Kishi's many BSing, and reteconns. lol



 Because of Nagato's superior chakra reserves and life force.


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## Trojan (Mar 17, 2015)

a child has superior chakra to an adult with hashirama's chakra?


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So Preta Path can nullify all ninjutsu, but now it can be countered by a ninjutsu? Great logic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See that would have been a terrible logic if Preta wasn't countered indirectly not directly. Good one.

Yea the rock pulled up droplets from the lake like anything coming out of water would. But if BT truly worked as you implied the rock with a mass of water around it would have been picked up, but clearly that wasn't the case. 
And even with that small range you mentioned, BT shouldn't be able to just pull rocks out of water with out pulling the water according to you of course.

Unfortunately for you, PS is still Ninjutsu and when in contact with the barrier size is meaningless.

Just because he chose not to, you can't just make an assumption and declare it fact.

If the argument is going to be a group of people declaring their claims automatically fact without considering both sides but rather ridiculing people because they get frustrated over an argument that they have no answer to, then i'll pass. Especially when that Mod guy claimed he was going to starting handing out banns but still failed to do so even after we had a shitload of people join in just to run their mouth.


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## Alucardemi (Mar 17, 2015)

When a brother's eyes transfer to another user, they are permanently changed to being as if original to the one receiving the transfer.

That's why Madara's eyes, despite them being originally Izuna's, had predominantly the pattern of his old Mangekyou Sharingan, slightly modified by Izuna's MS pattern. Sasuke's eyes, despite being Itachi's, are now his personal ones -- they reflect his MS pattern, with a slight modification by Itachi's.

When they transfer, the trait of originality transfers with it, apparently.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 17, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> What you never attended school or something?
> 
> Once in contact with the barrier it gets nullified then absorbed



Once in contact, it gets absorbed. Not proof that it can't move away. Not sure how hard this concept is for you to grasp.



> It's not my job to educate people. You educate your self im not your teacher tf. We've seen several times when jutsus came in contact with the Preta barrier they were clearly nullified. If you choose to disagree go reread the Manga.



So basically, you are trying to front since you know you can't provide a scan. I suggest we learn how to debate kid. YOU support your argument with evidence, you don't sit back, sip tea and watch as the opposition searches for claims that don't even exist. Get that shit out of here.

The Jutsu that came in contact with the barrier were absorbed. That's it. You keep saying this nullify shit but you've failed to prove anything. Nagato supporters never fail to disappoint when it comes to EMS Madara vs. Nagato. Never fail to disappoint. You guys know that Madara shits, so you make up shit, and dance around the idea of him being fodderized by Nagato before PS comes out. It's pathetic really.




> Preta reverses chakra flow thus voiding it and making it ineffective.


So now we are outright lying about what the Databook says? Databook says that the USER'S Chakra flow spins in reverse, allowing them to draw in the jutsu. Doesn't prove that Susanoo can't move while it's being absorbed. 



> That's it's ability DB states that and Manga shows us that several times. Prove that it can't because you have provided no argument against this. So prove how PS isn't ninjutsu.



Learn how to debate kid. This discussion won't nor can it move forward until you prove that Susanoo being in the absorption process means that Susanoo can't move out of the way. If you could post a scan and prove your argument, you wouldn't be whining about "I don't educate people". You would've posted a scan and shut me up 3 posts ago. 




> Like i said i don't educate the ignorant i just let them become more ignorant. I suggest you read the Manga and and see how Preta has nullified techs that have came in contact


Same shit I've replied to above. When you can prove this BS then we can talk. I suggest we learn how to debate.



> Clearly we see BT gives the user the option of what it wants to control in several cases (nail on wood case rock in water case, and the list  just keeps going on) BT will control Madara and pull him out. He also has the option to use BT on Madara and then BT on PS



I've already replied to this argument like, 5 times now. I suggest we stop repeating the same shit over and over again and start posting real counters. None of those cases are comparable to Madara, who is inside a solid body of armor, one that he is attached to. We've seen that to remove Madara, you need to hold Susanoo in place. Nagato can't do that, so he can't pull Madara out. 



> I shouldn't be hearing nonsense come out your mouth, considering everything you've brought to the table so far has been straight trash. And i know your not talking about predictable. Not only can i read you like a Dr. Seuss book, but you throw up the same arguments that have been countered several times over but your arrogance does allow you to see that. So rather you come here with novelty claims that have been relics to even this thread for months.


Amazing. This kid is talking about my arguments being straight trash, yet he says shit like "PP imobilizes Susanoo", and then when asked for proof, he can prove it. The irony. 

Lol, I suggest we stick to reading Dr. Seuss books, cause it's clear _Naruto_ is to high a level for you to comprehend, which is sad considering it's not that hard to comprehend to begin with.



> Yea and i suppose when Naruto is sitting there saying where'd he go and looking around for him Itachi is just looking into the wind. Good one.


You can't prove to me what Itachi was doing, so the best you can do is drop this point. 



> Like i've suggested to you before, if you have simply run out of logical arguments keep it moving because you coming through insulting and belittling people yet you yourself haven't brought one logical argument to the table makes you look daft.



The only one who looks daft here, is the one who starts whining about irrelevant shit when he can't back up a claim that he himself made. Fucking pathetic if you ask me. Now I know why this thread has gone on for so long, because of posters like you, who just can't admit when they make no sense.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 17, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Once in contact, it gets absorbed. Not proof that it can't move away. Not sure how hard this concept is for you to grasp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As if Susanoo users don't move within Susanoo without Susanoo moving. On top of that He can just target Madara with BT then BT PS. Stop making spurious claims, enough already.

So what your saying is that the techs you've seen come in contact with the Preta barrier weren't nullified. Yea when we clearly see all of them when in contact voided. The main reason why Bee while being absorbed couldn't move. If you can't consider both sides at this point and yet still come with weak arguments, keep it moving immediately and stop replying, simple as that. You run your mouth to no ends and the worst part is your arguments are trivial.

Trust me with your type, it's not that easy to shut you up. Ignorance won't allow you to take what even Manga has given us. I have gave you an example so you do your research but knowing you you will still try to debate about it.

Ignorance i can take. However fronting is not forgiven.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> *Hashirama's cells have never been implied to reduce the strain Obito has using Kamui.*
> 
> But of course, Kakashi would be able to spam Kamui though despite his MS bleeding to death until he received some of Kurama's chakra which is downright ridiculous, but . Logically though, he wouldn't be able to spam his Kamui with his eye deteriorating.



Then why can Obito spam it for 5 minutes? And then recharge and keep on spamming it? In fact every time we see Obito he is always spamming kamui? Your telling me Hashi cells aren't doing that?

Your logic says Kakashi can't spam even if he has the chakra because he will go blind? Well why can Obito spam it for 20 years and not go blind? 

Hashi cells.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 17, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Then why can Obito spam it for 5 minutes? And then recharge and keep on spamming it? In fact every time we see Obito he is always spamming kamui? Your telling me Hashi cells aren't doing that?



 Because he's an Uchiha and has had the MS for a lot longer than Kakashi has. The reason why he can spam it for the most part is due to being able to handle the strain and the fact that he has Hashi's cells that boosts his chakra reserves to the point where he can spam it.



> Your logic says Kakashi can't spam even if he has the chakra because he will go blind? Well why can Obito spam it for 20 years and not go blind?
> 
> Hashi cells.



 No, Kakashi should not be able to spam it even if he has the chakra to do if he goes blind. This was evident with MS Sasuke against Kakashi as he had enough chakra to use Susano'o, but couldn't use V4 Susano'o and had to shut it down due to the technique putting too much strain on his eye. Same situation here, if Kakashi goes blind, he can't use the MS, simple as that (well, at least not when he needs the MS to use his Kamui). 

 Obito can spam it because he's an Uchiha which means his usage of the Sharingan is already superior to Kakashi's as well as the fact that he's had the MS for 20 years and has used it consistently whereas Kakashi hardly used it and likely only gained it towards the end of the time-skip between Part 1 and Shippuuden. 

 Now that you've been disproved, you can get your  outta here.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because he's an Uchiha and has had the MS for a lot longer than Kakashi has. The reason why he can spam it for the most part is due to being able to handle the strain and the fact that he has Hashi's cells that boosts his chakra reserves to the point where he can spam it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I haven't been disproved at all just confused and have even more questions. And kobe can show his face whenever he wants this is MY thread.

So if Obito can spam it because he is a Uchiha then why can't Itachi and Sasuke spam it as well as he can? Itachi seems like he a very sharp guy maybe even smarter then Obito. So with all that uchiha smarts why can't he spam just as much as Obito can and im talking about p1. For example the day he encountered Jiraiya? Itachi has had the MS less time then Obito but still he has had it for years?


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 17, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I haven't been disproved at all just confused and have even more questions. And kobe can show his face whenever he wants this is MY thread.
> 
> So if Obito can spam it because he is a Uchiha then why can't Itachi and Sasuke spam it as well as he can?



 I never claimed that. I only claimed he can use Kamui more times than Kakashi partially because he's an Uchiha. That's not the only reason.



> Itachi seems like he a very sharp guy maybe even smarter then Obito. So with all that uchiha smarts why can't he spam just as much as Obito can and im talking about p1.



 Itachi was already suffering from an illness and has lower chakra reserves due to not having Hashi's Cells. 

 This basically means that:

 1. Itachi's physical state as well as his ability to handle the effects of the MS is hampered due to suffering from an illness.

 2. Lower chakra reserves means his physical state is worse after using the MS which is why he can't spam it and is why you see Itachi's fatigue when he talks to Kisame about his usage of the MS.



> For example the day he encountered Jiraiya? Itachi has had the MS less time then Obito but still he has had it for years?



 Obito has had it for far far longer at that point in time. Itachi had it for 5-6 years. Obito had it for 20 years. There's no comparison.

 So yeah, I can tell you to get  out of this thread.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 17, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> *As if Susanoo users don't move within Susanoo without Susanoo moving.* On top of that He can just target Madara with BT then BT PS. Stop making spurious claims, enough already.



The bold isn't going to change what happened in the manga. They had to hold Susanoo down before pulling Madara out, meaning Susanoo would've moved with him had they tried to pull him out. That simple. It's crazy how people make excuses to deny the things they won't want to confront. 

So, why don't you try your hardest to logically explain how attracting both PS and Madara at the same time will result in only Madara being pulled towards Nagato? Though I'll tell you now, it makes no sense, so you shouldn't even bother trying to validate this BS.  



> So what your saying is that the techs you've seen come in contact with the Preta barrier weren't nullified.


They were *absorbed *kid. Absorbed. Nothing more, nothing less.



> Yea when we clearly see all of them when in contact voided


.
No, what you see is them being *absorbed*. You keep trying to invent something that isn't there and it's pretty sad. 



> The main reason why Bee while being absorbed couldn't move.



B not being able to move isn't because of this fanfictional ability you are trying to give Preta Path cause you know your fav can't win with his Manga abilities. B wasn't able to move because he hit Nagato, mid air. 

Then there's the fact that his chakra cloak was pretty much gone by the time he realized what was going on anyway.



> If you can't consider both sides at this point and yet still come with weak arguments, keep it moving immediately and stop replying, simple as that. You run your mouth to no ends and the worst part is your arguments are trivial.
> 
> Trust me with your type, it's not that easy to shut you up. Ignorance won't allow you to take what even Manga has given us. I have gave you an example so you do your research but knowing you you will still try to debate about it.


So you _*still*_ can't provide a scan to prove your points. This is pathetic. Very pathetic indeed. You bitch about my arguments, but none of your arguments are supported by events that even exist in the manga. Posting shitty arguments and then talking big only shows how small you really area.

What a joke indeed. You shouldn't be posting on any type of forum if you aren't smart enough to back up what you claim when you're asked. That simple. A grade schooler could've followed those simple instructions the first time around, instead of going on and on and on about irrelevant shit. You've pretty much told me that you have NO scan proving your point, otherwise you would've posted it.

Though am I surprised? Not really. I expected you to be a joke from the get go.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 17, 2015)

Actually, Itachi managed to move out of his Susano'o against Nagato as shown here:

 mid air.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I never claimed that. I only claimed he can use Kamui more times than Kakashi partially because he's an Uchiha. That's not the only reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Show me a panel that says Itachi was sick in Part 1.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 17, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Show me a panel that says Itachi was sick in Part 1.


Kakashi saying he, Itachi, was going blind in part 1.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 17, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Kakashi saying he, Itachi, was going blind in part 1.



Exactly. You have just helped my argument in which the only reason Obito can spam Kamui is because he he has hashi cells.

Itachi wasn't sick in p1 he was going blind due to overuse of the MS. Sasuke was also starting to feel the side effects. Yet obito can spam Kamui for 20 years? Hmmm. Hashi Cells sound like quite the power up.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 18, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Exactly. You have just helped my argument in which the only reason Obito can spam Kamui is because he he has hashi cells.


It matters not in me helping, we should all be trying to attain the truth... holding back facts or editing them to suit your argument only holds us back in attaining all jutsu truths.





Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Itachi wasn't sick in p1 he was going blind due to overuse of the MS. Sasuke was also starting to feel the side effects. Yet obito can spam Kamui for 20 years? Hmmm. Hashi Cells sound like quite the power up.


Dude... Itachi was coughing up blood. The same as Sasuke was when he overused his Mangekyo. We never saw Itachi vomiting anything else, so we can conclude the sick going through Itachi was the Mangekyo overuse.

Itachi was sick... he wanted Sasuke's eyes to restore himself.



KeyofMiracles said:


> They were *absorbed *kid. Absorbed. Nothing more, nothing less.


The Absorption Seal used by Preta Path (that creates a barrier), nullifies the jutsu and absorbs it. Databook sourced and the manga clearly shows this... it's the reason Preta Path wasn't sliced to pieces by Sage Mode Naruto's Wind Release: Rasenshuriken or took absolute no damage when it was surrounded by Sage Mode Jiraiya and the Toad Sage's Goemon.


..c'mon son.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 18, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> It matters not in me helping, we should all be trying to attain the truth... holding back facts or editing them to suit your argument only holds us back in attaining all jutsu truths.Dude... Itachi was coughing up blood. The same as Sasuke was when he overused his Mangekyo. We never saw Itachi vomiting anything else, so we can conclude the sick going through Itachi was the Mangekyo overuse.
> 
> Itachi was sick... he wanted Sasuke's eyes to restore himself.



How am I holding back feats? lol

And if Itachi is going sick because of Mangekyo overuse after 5-6 years then why was Obito never shown to be sick hell why would he still be alive after all this time with using the MS for 20 years?


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 18, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> How am I holding back feats? lol
> 
> And if Itachi is going sick because of Mangekyo overuse after 5-6 years then why was Obito never shown to be sick hell why would he still be alive after all this time with using the MS for 20 years?



 Who knows. 

 Zetsu stated coughing up blood was a symptom of Itachi's illness and we have seen Sasuke cough blood while using Susano'o, so it is possible that the Sickness was progressively getting worse as Itachi continuously overused the MS. That could also hint towards why Itachi fled the scene when Jiraiya appeared rather early as Kisame commented on why Itachi was leaving, even though Kisame earlier was concerned about Itachi's MS usage.

 The illness itself, however, likely started due to natural causes.

 Obito not getting sick has more to do with not catching it from Natural Causes. Not everyone is going to get sick from using the MS. Sasuke clearly didn't went he clearly spammed it more than what Tobi had wanted him to. Hell, Tobi was more concerned about Sasuke's eyes instead of Sasuke getting sick from overusing the MS and clearly he still wanted to use Sasuke, so if overusing the MS would result in him getting an fatal illness, Tobi obviously would've stepped in just as he did when he thought Danzo was going to kill Sasuke, so it's not like overusing the MS suddenly leads to getting ill.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 18, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> How am I holding back feats? lol


I wasn't talking specifically about you. I was talking to us all, the entire community. I also said facts, not feats.


> And if Itachi is going sick because of Mangekyo overuse after 5-6 years then why was Obito never shown to be sick hell why would he still be alive after all this time with using the MS for 20 years?


You do realise quite a high percentage of Obito's body is made up of Hashirama cells right. The same cells that allowed Orochimaru to summon the Hokage back at almost full power, or enabled Danzo to cut the Kotoamatsukami cooldown of 10 years into mere hours?



Don't underestimate Hashirama's cells. For they are the reason Obito didn't feel the effects of Kamui when looking at it.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 18, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> I wasn't talking specifically about you. I was talking to us all, the entire community. I also said facts, not feats.
> You do realise quite a high percentage of Obito's body is made up of Hashirama cells right. The same cells that allowed Orochimaru to summon the Hokage back at almost full power, or enabled Danzo to cut the Kotoamatsukami cooldown of 10 years into mere hours?
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know if your being serious but thats the whole point im trying to make... 



NarutoX28 said:


> Who knows.
> 
> Zetsu stated coughing up blood was a symptom of Itachi's illness and we have seen Sasuke cough blood while using Susano'o, so it is possible that the Sickness was progressively getting worse as Itachi continuously overused the MS. That could also hint towards why Itachi fled the scene when Jiraiya appeared rather early as Kisame commented on why Itachi was leaving, even though Kisame earlier was concerned about Itachi's MS usage.
> 
> ...



I don't know about that. Sasuke said every fiber in his being was hurting when he used Susanoo. Sure Obito doesn't use Susanoo but itachi was definitely in Pain from using MS. But I don't know any more how did we even start talking about this lol? This has nothing to do with EMS MAdara vs NAgato


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 18, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> The Absorption Seal used by Preta Path (that creates a barrier), nullifies the jutsu and absorbs it. Databook sourced and the manga clearly shows this... it's the reason Preta Path wasn't sliced to pieces by Sage Mode Naruto's Wind Release: Rasenshuriken or took absolute no damage when it was surrounded by Sage Mode Jiraiya and the Toad Sage's Goemon.
> 
> 
> ..c'mon son.



Listen. The Databook says* "",* not that the jutsu is rendered ineffective and sucked away. Meaning that the jutsu is rendered ineffective BECAUSE it has been absorbed. It's crazy how you guys outright lying about what the Databook says.

I'll tell you why FRS didn't slice Preta Path apart...because it absorbed the jutsu. An absorbed jutsu isn't going to do damage unless the absorption jutsu can't handle it. See Samehada. Same thing with Goemon. A jutsu can't do damage if it's being absorbed. It's really that simple. There is no double function to this jutsu. The only place it exists is in your minds. And I only get my info from the Manga.

Though what happened to your "Rocks=Mountains" point?


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## Trojan (Mar 18, 2015)

This thread moves so fast! O_o


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## Hasan (Mar 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> and yet Nagato was able to handle both of them when he was a child.
> though I suppose this is one of Kishi's many BSing, and reteconns. lol



Nagato never commented on his condition, now did he? We were actually arguing that Sharingan is different, in that it is not known to weigh down on its wielders as the Rinnegan is stated to. Also, Obito is canonically better at handling the Rinnegan, but that's not really our contention here.



> Madara's half body was in the Kamui-space, and the other half was not though.



My point relates to the right eye Kamui. What does Madara's severed limbs have do with it?



> Obito was not able to teleport at all in that battle, not parts of his body, not his fully body.



Heavens, he only expressed frustration over not being able to phase through attacks. He never attempted to absorb himself — [1]. There was no reason to — [2]. Why would he run away, when he wanted to fight?



> The Rinnegan was awakened from the EMS, which were Izuna's eyes.



Eien no Mangekyou belongs to Madara: that's the entire point behind the conception of an 'eternal' Sharingan. Izuna's eyes were no longer his, once they mutated, birthing the said doujutsu. The eyes exhibit the traits of the person, to whom they were donated – in this case, Madara. This isn't denying that Izuna gave him eyes, which is why I said _*doujutsu*_. Eien no Mangekyou is not an eye, and neither is Rinnegan (technically), they're _*eye techniques*_. _It was him_ who awakened the Eien no Mangekyou, _and it was him_ who mixed the chakras of Indra and Ashura to awaken the Rinnegan.



> The Rinnegan were also stated to be Nagato's eyes, and them Obito's, and so on, so it's not like the first time we get those type of things really..



It's a narrative. They were Nagato's for the duration, their origin story was left untouched. When the author finally touched upon it, they were revealed to be Madara's. Since then, various characters have confirmed them to be Madara's eyes... and the story's ended now, and they are still Madara's eyes.

Finally: 



Hussain said:


> So yeah, I would rather go with who created the manga, than your idiotic statements.



No offense, brother, but you tend to take different stances.


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 18, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> The bold isn't going to change what happened in the manga. They had to hold Susanoo down before pulling Madara out, meaning Susanoo would've moved with him had they tried to pull him out. That simple. It's crazy how people make excuses to deny the things they won't want to confront.
> 
> So, why don't you try your hardest to logically explain how attracting both PS and Madara at the same time will result in only Madara being pulled towards Nagato? Though I'll tell you now, it makes no sense, so you shouldn't even bother trying to validate this BS.
> 
> ...


You know your done for when someone on your side proved you wrong. No excuses here just an arrogant person such as yourself who doesn't accept the Manga.

They were nullified. This guy said kid, how whack can you get my man.

If all it's doing is absorbing his chakra like you claim he should still be able to push off of him to get away. Some form of movement should have been done but no, rather he sat there. He realized when he still had some chakra left he still should have pulled away or did some form of movement but he didn't.

On top of that explain why the oil didn't reach the two paths behind Preta when it was being absorbed. Preta was clearly only absorbing one part of the liquid that shouldn't cause the oil that wasn't in contact with barrier to stop especially with the momentum it had going.

Man its as if your explaining yourself every time. Not one of your counters have been supported by evidence. Instead you ramble on about your spurious claims that truly have nothing backing it up but the never ending run of your mouth.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 18, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> You know your done for when someone on your side proved you wrong. No excuses here just an arrogant person such as yourself who doesn't accept the Manga.



Irrelevant to the debate.



> They were nullified. This guy said kid, how whack can you get my man.



A restating of your assertion isn't a counter argument or evidence to actually support said claim.



> If all it's doing is absorbing his chakra like you claim he should still be able to push off of him to get away.


Uh, no. Pushing on Nagato is why he went forward in the first place. Without a sturdy foundation for the latter, B won't be able to push on him w/o them both just going forward some more. Then there's the fact that his chakra cloak was pretty much gone by the time he realized what was going on. Panel clearly shows it.



> Some form of movement should have been done but no, rather he sat there. He realized when he still had some chakra left he still should have pulled away or did some form of movement but he didn't.


Read above.



> On top of that explain why the oil didn't reach the two paths behind Preta when it was being absorbed. Preta was clearly only absorbing one part of the liquid that shouldn't cause the oil that wasn't in contact with barrier to stop especially with the momentum it had going.


What kind of dumb question is this? Preta Path causes the chakra flow to spin in reverse allowing them to SUCK IN the jutsu. If the jutsu is touching the barrier, it gets sucked in until it's completely gone. That's absorption buddy. I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for your brain to grasp, but it's pretty sad.

That's like asking why water goes down a drain. Lol. Not to mention this doesn't even begin to prove that the jutsu was magically nullified, this only proves that Preta can absorb the whole of the attack and not just what it's in initial contact with.



You can whine, bitch and moan about my posts, but at the end of the day this is Preta Path's ability and no amount of crying is going to change that. Jutsu is sucked away AND rendered ineffective, meaning it's sucked away, and because of that, it's rendered ineffective.

It doesn't magically cease the movement of a giant chakra construct unless said construct has lost so much chakra that it can't maintain itself. Just an ability you've invented because you know that Nagato stands no chance. 



> Man its as if your explaining yourself every time. Not one of your counters have been supported by evidence.



Except they have been. You stating that they haven't been pretty much means nothing. The one providing evidence here should be the guy who is so hell bent on crying about how Nagato can magically nullify people's jutsu.




> Instead you ramble on about your spurious claims that truly have nothing backing it up but the never ending run of your mouth.



My posts continue with the side banter because you are too immature to prove your point. Since I called you out on it, you've since resorted to showing out to hide the fact your argument literally doesn't exist in the manga.

-snip-


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## sanninme rikudo (Mar 18, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Irrelevant to the debate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why was Itachi outside of his Susanoo? Making up stuff and not having evidence to support it only makes your credibility go down.

Then why do you do it?

I said push off him not push on him two different things. Plus he still didn't move at all. Your sink analogy was completely irrelevant. And yet you still failed to refute my points, you've been using this method all day, just making irrelevant nonsense than attempting to move on believing it had any connection with what you were trying to prove. Horrendous! Why didn't the oil on the side of him with the speed it reached him actually pass him. This time stay relevant or like i said keep it moving.

Provided evidence examples already but you refuse to acknowledge and can't come up with a proper argument so instead make up irrelevant analogies. If you ask me your the one who's bitching. So instead of complaining and belittling people stop running your mouth and come correct not just fronting bullshit.  If you can't do that, which i believe you can't seeing as how you've been struggling to do so, keep it moving brat, simple as that.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 18, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Why was Itachi outside of his Susanoo? Making up stuff and not having evidence to support it only makes your credibility go down.



Not sure what you are talking about here, or how Itachi being outside of Susanoo or not has anything to do with this argument. Nor am I sure how Itachi outside of Susanoo proves any of the shit you've been saying.

But then again, you don't really have evidence for any of your claims.




> I said push off him not push on him two different things.



No, it's the same exact motion. To push off of someone, you have to push on them and use them as a foundation to bounce yourself in the opposite direction. Can't do that if the person you are trying to bounce off of is flying at a high speed, in the same direction as you. 



> Plus he still didn't move at all.


Explained.



> Your sink analogy was completely irrelevant.



Not a counter. Concession accepted.




> And yet you still failed to refute my points, you've been using this method all day, just making irrelevant nonsense than attempting to move on believing it had any connection with what you were trying to prove. Horrendous!



Not a counter. Concession accepted.



> *Why didn't the oil on the side of him with the speed it reached him actually pass him. *This time stay relevant or like i said keep it moving.


Already answered in two ways. One which you stated you ignored, and one which you completely ignored with zero acknowledgement. Repeating the same question while ignoring the answer because you don't want to hear it isn't a counter.



> Provided evidence examples already but you refuse to acknowledge and can't come up with a proper argument so instead make up irrelevant analogies.


Not a counter. -snip-



> If you ask me your the one who's bitching.


The irony. 




> So instead of complaining and belittling people stop running your mouth and come correct not just fronting bullshit.



The only one fronting is the guy who constantly puts irrelevant shit in his replies to me, instead of answering the question I asked from the get go. Where is the proof that Preta Path nullifies jutsu? You've only given me an example that doesn't prove how it'd nullify shit even if your example was sound.



> If you can't do that, which i believe you can't seeing as how you've been struggling to do so, keep it moving brat, simple as that.



This is why kids shouldn't be allowed to argue, at least, stupid whiny kids that is. You are a perfect example of that. Preta Path's abilities have been highlighted. If the fact I don't bend to your fanfiction sends you into a bitchy little hissy fit, I suggest you stop posting on this forum altogether.

From this point on, any irrelevant content in your posts will be deleted. *Get proof that Preta Path will stop Susanoo from being able to move.*



No amount of tears will change this DB entry. No amount of tears will rewrite Kishimoto's Manga. no amount of excuses will validate your examples.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Mar 18, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Not sure what you are talking about here, or how Itachi being outside of Susanoo or not has anything to do with this argument. Nor am I sure how Itachi outside of Susanoo proves any of the shit you've been saying.
> 
> But then again, you don't really have evidence for any of your claims.
> 
> ...


That was as a counter to the BT PS disussion

That was extremely moronic of you. Must not ball up, beacause that's how a pick and roll works.Just more garbage coming out your mouth.

Obviously the reason it was repeated was because your argument was clearly bullshit and still didn't prove anything. Still no proper argument ( If the jutsu is touching the barrier, it gets sucked in until it's completely gone. That's absorption buddy. I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for your brain to grasp, but it's pretty sad) what part in that proves anything? just please keep it moving brat.

Where is proof the oil wasn't stopped? where is proof RS wasn't stopped where is proof Bee could move.

-snip-


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 18, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Listen. The Databook says* "",* not that the jutsu is rendered ineffective and sucked away. Meaning that the jutsu is rendered ineffective BECAUSE it has been absorbed.


Are you some kind of comprehension troll master? Or is English not your first language? Let me paint you with the facts. Read what it motherfuckin' says bro... it says every jutsu is sucked away and rendered ineffective. That's all it says, it is sucked away and rendered ineffective. If it was just sucked in... it would still have it's destructive qualities, so the attributes it has are simultaneous to the Preta Path Absorption Barrier Seal. 



INEFFECTIVE = SUCKING

...it's one in the same as a process, not separate. If it was rendered ineffective because of the sucking it would say so but it does not. 


> It's crazy how you guys outright lying about what the Databook says.


No we are not lying. We, I am telling you the truth as it is. You're the one adapting the shit in the databook to suit your argument, inserting your conjectures and parodies without any evidence.


> I'll tell you why FRS didn't slice Preta Path apart...because it absorbed the jutsu. An absorbed jutsu isn't going to do damage unless the absorption jutsu can't handle it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 18, 2015)

And please explain to us what will happen to Nagato's body when Nagato absorbs a massive amount of high quality chakra such as Madara's PS? 

 Preta Path already suffered from adverse effects due to Sage Chakra and considering Madara's high quality and quantity of chakra, Nagato's fate ends the same way Preta's does.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 19, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> And please explain to us what will happen to Nagato's body when Nagato absorbs a massive amount of high quality chakra such as Madara's PS?
> 
> Preta Path already suffered from adverse effects due to Sage Chakra and considering Madara's high quality and quantity of chakra, Nagato's fate ends the same way Preta's does.


This is the exact level of bullshit we can all do without. This, this right here creates topics where we should be discussing the fundamental essence of this manga but instead you, you NarutoX28 and others like you are asking questions that do not correspond with that essence. You're literally writing fan fiction here... you are pulling up questions and answers that are not consistent in any light of the manga and casting them here. For what purpose, I do so ask? Because you're in search of all the unanswered answers of the Naruto universe? Because you're bored? Because you want to rewrite Naruto canon? Because you're stupid?

Admittedly that last one was a little harsh but if I say in response to your initial question; nothing. You're going to ask me to prove knowing full well that there is no way to actually prove it. There's no mechanic to test it, no manga scan to show whether I am indeed correct or incorrect. Yet you'll try and reduce my arguments into ash because I cannot support by claim, because I fell into your trap; regardless if you set it unknowingly or not. It is retarded and the very reason why such things when removed from what we know to what we will never know in threads like this go on for tens and tens of forum pages.

I can answer your question and going of logic it should satisfy for you but it won't. I could break and condense your question so you understand the answer I give but that wouldn't work either. The fact that you're comparing normal chakra to sage chakra or saying things like high quality chakra is more than enough justification for me to stop this discussion, this argument because it won't get me anywhere. Go on declare yourself the winner because I didn't answer you. Whatever my good dude; NarutoX28 and all that follow suit, sit in your cavity of mocking and galling declamations. If you want to get anywhere you need to work with those you consider your opposition, regardless of the matters at hand. 

For example.... the question you've asked me, first I need to be educated.

1. What is high quality chakra and therefore what is regular quality chakra?

2. Do you see this (high) quality of chakra being comparable to sage chakra?

3. Why do you see this high quality of chakra giving Preta Path the same fate as beforehand, being turned into a frog?

4. I would like to know you're reasoning, seeing as having lots of chakra inside you hasn't be stated to do anything.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 19, 2015)

I will likely answer your questions later, but I did want to address something with you really quickly.

 Is it really my fault that I presented an argument that you never considered?

 Is it really my fault that you came into this thread, using the same biased argument, completely oblivious to the fact that there are other factors that affect your argument?

 Is it really my fault that you waltzed into this thread uneducated and now that I presented a new argument, you can't refute it and instead resort to multiple questions when it should be you that educates yourself?

 Seriously, if you never considered the Quality of Chakra being a factor of how well Nagato can handle chakra where it was shown with Preta Path that it does, then I can't help you here.

 But I will answer your questions later, either today or tomorrow, but I won't forget. If I don't and you present it to me and I can't answer them successfully, then I will concede.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 19, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> -snip- Let me paint you with the facts. Read what it motherfuckin' says bro... it says every jutsu is sucked away and rendered ineffective. That's all it says, it is sucked away and rendered ineffective. If it was just sucked in...* it would still have it's destructive qualities, so the attributes it has are simultaneous to the Preta Path Absorption Barrier Seal.*



Meaning it is rendered effective *because *it is sucked away. -snip- The rest is irrelevant since I never stated it was only sucked away. It's rendered ineffective *because *it is sucked away.

The bold is just something we've pulled out of our asses to substantiate our argument. Chakra absorption is absorbing a technique. If the technique is absorbed, it has no destructive qualities. We've seen the same thing with Samehada, which isn't stated to do what Preta Path does.







> INEFFECTIVE = SUCKING
> 
> ...it's one in the same as a process, not separate. If it was rendered ineffective because of the *sucking it would say so but it does not. *



-snip-  If the sucking=ineffective, then that means that it's rendered ineffective BECAUSE it's being absorbed. One in the same process as my, and the databook's statement show. So I'm not sure what you are going on about here.



> I said they are parallel abilities - once something hits the seal it is simultaneously absorbed and rendered harmless.



Yes, because it's being absorbed. It's really that simple.



> Like I said and you didn't seem to understand if this were not synchronous Preta Path would have been sliced as it absorbed very harmful chakra into it's body.



It's amazing how poor your ability to read and comprehend information is. Like I said. Like the Databook said. The jutsu is sucked in and rendered ineffective, meaning that the jutsu is rendered ineffective because it has been sucked in, meaning that both processes are the same. 

And even then, all you've done is show me that once absorbed, the jutsu can't harm Nagato. How does that prove that Preta Path will magically immobilize Susanoo while Nagato is absorbing it? There's literally no correlation. No amount of twisting of manga fact is going to create one anywhere outside of your delusional minds.

But hey, I can't expect you to be able to understand that. 



> I don't understand you here... S*amehada clearly doesn't do the same as the Absorption Barrier Seal* since it can feel pain from harmful chakra sources like Itachi's Katon during the War.



I suggest we read and understand what transpires in the manga before we cite it. Samehada felt irritation from the Katon because it does not like heat. If the shit you were saying here was true, then Samehada wouldn't be able to absorb any kind of jutsu or harmful without feeling pain. 

[QUOTEThe fact that you've contradicted yourself whilst claiming you've only got your information from the manga, when you've also sourced the databook which is actually external from the actual manga. It's clear you have a very weak understanding of this matter and don't have any right in telling us we incorrectly created this in our heads.[/QUOTE]
If only I did contradict myself.



> I didn't realise anyone had tried to tackle the hard truths of our reality; that rocks are one in the same, apart of the same substances mountains are made from. Their source is mutually the same. One is a large version of the other, no other difference on the surface. Leaving the feat of Madara's Perfect Susanoo and it's supporters... enervated and anserine.



-snip-

Same substance doesn't mean jack  since we are talking about an *incomparably *larger version. Can Gai smash Mountains because he can smash rock? Can Sasuke put holes in Mountains because he can put holes in boulders with Chidori? No and no. I suggest we stop dodging the questions and examples that show how illogical your comparison is. 

I guess breaking a branch means I'm strong enough to break a tree's trunk as well. I guess that Tobirama can cut through the Shinju's trunk with his Suidanha because he can cut a small branch. The bigger, the thicker, the harder it is to cut through, meaning you need more energy to do so. Nice logic pal. Nice logic.



> Hey guys... I just remembered something, you know how Madara's shockwave feat is so good?
> 
> Well it only mashed up a mountain face? Nagato is more durable than a mountain. In fact Madara's shockwave thing isn't even a feat, it's nothing.* Sasuke got smashed into the side of a canyon rock face and didn't even break a bone?* Canyon=Mountain... you're telling me something that can slash a mountain when all it requires is basic part 1 attack strength is enough to defeat Prime Nagato?
> 
> I don't think so...



Bold doesn't even make sense, since being slammed into a Canyon says nothing about the attack power needed to destroy a Mountain, that only shows that the attack that sent him there wasn't strong enough to kill him or injure him.

Zero proof that Nagato is more durable than the Mountain Madara cut through, and him being more durable than regular sized rocks isn't a feat. The fact your whole argument is hinged upon a feat that doesn't even involve the power needed to damage or bust a Mountain is pretty amazing.



But hey, all Nagato supporters can do is continue on with the false equivalences. It's pretty pathetic to be honest.







> *rock*
> 
> 1. the solid mineral material forming part of the surface of the earth and other similar planets, exposed on the surface or underlying the soil. "the beds of rock are slightly tilted" a mass of rock projecting above the earth's surface or out of the sea.
> 
> ...



You've told us what a rock is, good job, but you haven't proven what I've asked you to prove, that cutting a small rock=cutting a Mountain. but it seems the Nagato supporters are good at that. Not backing their arguments that is.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 19, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> That was as a counter to the BT PS disussion[



And you've still failed to explain how it's relevant....or maybe I have to type in smaller, less complex words before you understand what I mean. Now. Pissy little kid. Please tell me how Itachi being outside of his Susanoo has anything to do with the following:

-The indisputable FACT that Susanoo had to be held down before Madara could be removed.

I'll be waiting for you to actually counter w/o blowing a gasket.




> -snip-


Absorption is when the jutsu is drawn in, thus rendered ineffective. If you actually knew what absorption was, you wouldn't be making claims like "Susanoo can't move while it's being absorbed" without actually being able to prove it first. The only way Susanoo's movement stops



> Where is proof the oil wasn't stopped?



Who said it wasn't stopped? It was absorbed, thus stopped. That's how absorption works.



> where is proof RS wasn't stopped



It was stopped, because it was absorbed completely.



> where is proof Bee could move.



-snip-

The fact you ignored the explanation only shows that you couldn't counter. Concession accepted on this point as well.



> [U-snip-[/U]



-snip-


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 19, 2015)

Oh my gosh, oh my god NarutoX28. I'm not saying you've presented me with something I've never thought of and if you had it wouldn't matter - your way of thinking is not in sync with the manga and therefore comes across as fiction. What you've said isn't supported by the manga and neither does it imply it. You're not presenting an argument, you're presenting reductio ad absurdum combined with contraposition theories ...which is acceptable when you're not the author and without detailed evidence.

You asked me what happens when Nagato used Preta Path and absorbs a high volume of high quality chakra. Now, in the manga there is no differentiation between high quality chakra to regular chakra. I mean you can't make stuff that up and then expect someone to answer a question based on it. Then you proceed to attack me because I've never thought of such a thing beforehand and before it didn't exist.

Why is my argument biased exactly? All I want here is the truth. My argument follows in this thread.

Statement 1 
Madara uses his most powerful ability; Susanoo. 
Susanoo is composed of nothing but chakra.
Preta Path absorbs chakra.
--Madara most powerful ability is useless (against Preta Path).

Statement 2
Susanoo is can create shock waves.
Susanoo's shock-waves destroy mountains (feat wise).
Mountains are rocks.
Part 1 Sasuke and Naruto destroy rocks and mountain sides.
Part 1 Sasuke and Naruto are more durable than rocks and mountain sides.
Nagato is more durable than anyone in rocks and mountain sides.
Susanoo's shock-waves are around Part 1 level Sasuke and Naruto.
--Anyone strong enough to survive not being killed by Sasuke and Naruto smashing them into rocks and mountain sides will survive Susanoo's shock-waves.

You should be trying to help me because you should be trying to explain your argument, especially if you're right. If you're right take the time to explain it to me. Give me some manga panels or something alike of which I can grasp your eldritch concepts.


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## BurningVegeta (Mar 19, 2015)

KeyofMiracles - dude, the technique works... it doesn't actually matter how. If you throw a Rasengan or a Katon at the Absorption Barrier Seal with absorb it and it will not hurt the user. If we can agree on that, that is all that matters. Honestly though, I'm reading it as it is, you're adding words like “then” and “because” - which is ultimately changing what the databook says. You're reading it suggestively (or relatively) I'm reading it literally. Also, KeyofMiracles, you're not a big boy. Maybe English isn't your first language or something but what you've said you were saying is not what you was saying. 

I've not once said the Perfect Super Awesome Susanoo of Uchiha Madara would be rendered useless once a bit of it touches the Absorption Seal Barrier. If Madara is slashing at the user which is in this case; Nagato, it's going to do zero damage and part if it is going to be absorbed.

Yet instead of trying to make me understand with your argumentative or deductive skills, you seemingly laugh. You're a great controversialist; if you keep intending on losing the object of your points.

I knew you'd fall into my trap of the Samehada issue! Listen up and pay fucking attention, KeyofMiracles. Samehada absorbs chakra, we've seen it absorb everything and it only moaned once because it was too hot, everything else it absorbed wasn't harmful. Chakra from the Hachibi or the Kyuubi isn't harmful at all, which is why the entire Shinobi Alliance were encased inside it. So why would it harmful to the Samehada bro? C'MON TELL ME BRO?

If Sasuke and Naruto can punch through a rock... if they kept going they could keep going to the point of going through a mountain. There attack is as strong as the Susanoo shockwave with obviously less range.


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 19, 2015)

I've looked through the thread and I've asked people to keep civil on at least five separate occasions?I think that's _more_ than lenient enough, to be honest.

So, by the power invested in me, I will hereby lock this thread on the grounds that it seemingly cannot go a few pages without people devolving into childish bickering and probably also throw out some infractions.

Enjoy the rest of your day!


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