# Kishimoto Seishi vs. Kishimoto Masashi



## Harlita (Dec 25, 2007)

Battle of the twin mangakas. 

Let's pretend a contract for a publication of a new manga, to run one year only was put on the table as a challenge to these two men.


 - creator of  - a lesser known manga soon to be anime, but arguably a better drawn, better executed plot with epic timeskips and more adult themes.
His most popular story, still in publication - monthly (about 75 pages per chapter)
- creator of - a vastly well known and extremely popular manga and anime that has been argued to rival the popularity of DragonBall Z during it's climax. 
His most popular story, still in publication - weekly (about 16 pages per chapter)



Both mangakas seem to adore each other, but Masashi has given credit to his brother for being more artistically inclined as well as having written a better story overall. 


Taking into consideration each person's application of plot and style, who would win out in a duel to create a better manga? 



I feel Masashi used to have a great story and was true to the characters and fans, but I believe that he follows now the scent of the money and has lost the plot. 
While 666Satan is coming to a conclusion and has witnessed far superior character development and timeskips, to me this easily goes to Seishi - the younger twin brother.


So, Seishi or Masashi - if both given a contract for a one year publication of a new story, who do you think would pull it off better than the other?


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## Tachikoma (Dec 25, 2007)

Personally, I've never rated Naruto as one of the top manga's ive ever read, there are interesting characters like Oro, but HxH, One Piece, xxxHolic, even Echi like Ichigo 100%  gave me more joy then this >.>


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## Rokudaime (Dec 25, 2007)

They should working together

Seishi should responsible to draw all female character and Masashi stick with his pretty boy..

Seriously, I thought that Yuria from 666 Satan is prettier than Sakura...LOL


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## Harlita (Dec 25, 2007)

I concur. 





You know.. just to make a point.


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## Aldric (Dec 25, 2007)

I used to think Seishi was superior to Masashi in almost every way but now that he has absolutely butchered the ending of 666 Satan I'm not so sure.

Both mangaka lack real creativity and talent as storytellers IMO. I like Seishi's art better, but it may have something to do with the fact his manga was published monthly, plus Masashi obviously stopped giving a shit a long time ago.

Overall I'll give the nod to Seishi though for the sole reason that with Ball he's created a character that is infinitely more likeable than anything his brother ever churned out.


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## Tachikoma (Dec 25, 2007)

pek the villain said:


> Naruto - Very good start and went downhill.
> 666 Satan - Decent start and went up in quality.


Agree it was good up until VoTE, then it took a nose dive. 
I didnt give up until a couple of months back though, the Immortals arc killed it for me >.> 

So now im reading other manga to entertain me, I read Naruto, just because im vested in it >.>


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## bijuu231 (Dec 25, 2007)

most people have likely read 666satan (and other titles) in one go compared to 16 pages every week for more than a year
which is why i think naruto gets low rating


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## McLovin (Dec 25, 2007)

Tachikoma_Pilot said:


> Agree it was good up until VoTE, then it took a nose dive.
> I didnt give up until a couple of months back though, the Immortals arc killed it for me >.>
> 
> So now im reading other manga to entertain me, I read Naruto, just because im vested in it >.>



This post pretty much covers my sentiments exacly. Both main characters were ruined by the time skip, IMO. I mostly only enjoy the chapters when they aren't in it.


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## Parallax (Dec 25, 2007)

⅔ said:


> most people have likely read 666satan (and other titles) in one go compared to 16 pages every week for more than a year
> which is why i think naruto gets low rating



Not necessarily true.  I read titles that come out on a weekly, or even monthly schedule and if the quality is great I don't rate lowly.  The quality of the series really did go down that much for me to hate on it

As for the winner, I'll go with Seishi.  Simply because he didn't invent Sasuke.


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## Ennoea (Dec 25, 2007)

Seishi can draw really well, but no 666 satan post time skip has been a relative failure with one of the worst ending of any manga I've seen. I think 666 needed to be a weekly series and it could have been better than Naruto, it fell at its last hurdle.


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## Dimezanime88 (Dec 25, 2007)

Wait, you guys actually think that Seishi can draw better than Masashi? And what is so great about the story of 666Satan?


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 25, 2007)

Not exactly, i'm going with masashi. Seishi really had better drawings and had more detailed backrounds, but i'm pretty sure masashi could do that had he had a month in between to do them. And now that i think about it, seishi's plot wasnt really all that original anyway, we had the basic first season with random training via dragonball, and then afterwards it was the cliche "mirror image" thing for the dark side of the main hero. Then it was the standard tournament saga for rock bird, branching off to the epic battle against the demon. I'd say the best part of the manga for me was the cross arc, and even then it went down hill right after the timekskip, everything went too fast for my liking, and most plot points seishi put out were never resolved(cross even said ruby had powers that were not fully realized, he never did anything with those, ruby's random powerup came out of nowhere as well, with an only slightly acceptable explanation that could have been not used anyway) and it eventually boiled down to a unsatisfying ending that pretty much tried to squeeze everything in at the last second.

As of right now, even though masashi had a few cliche elements in his manga, i feel they were executed quite well, and the character development is quite solid in the series(not as good as a lot of other series's i know, but extremely good for a shounen aka sakura being my favorite example), and i happen to like the plot twists in the manga, it feels like it goes somewhere as opposed to other series's out right now coughbleachinuyashacough. That and the plot is still fresh after so many chapters, and i can tell he has alot more exciting things to do.

So, that said, i'll give it to masashi no problem. Had seishi addressed a few problems i would have had a something different to say about it.

Naruto > 666


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## MdB (Dec 25, 2007)

Both had a good start (great in Naruto's case), but went downhill after the introduced time-skips. To be honest, I still think both lack crucial elements of storytelling, especially Kishimoto since he focused his storyline on a goddamn secondary character that has no redeeming features.


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## Aldric (Dec 25, 2007)

Thugnificent said:


> As for the winner, I'll go with Seishi.  Simply because he didn't invent Sasuke.



Oh wait nevermind, forgot about the fucking Uchiha, Seishi curbstomps then.


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## Supa Swag (Dec 25, 2007)

pek the villain said:


> You'll all probably hate and disagree when I say that Naruto pre-rescue sasuke arc/pre-timeskip is one of the best shonen mangas I have read.



No you're absolutely right.

Masashi>Seishi. 666 Satan had one of the most god awful endings I can remember (even Ichigo 100% and Suzuka had better endings!), and looking back, the plot wasn't even all that, decent until the TS. The only thing 666 Satan had over Naruto was better art, but that's to be expected considering it's a monthly manga.

Naruto has a stupendous amount of fail post TS. 90% of the women suck, the main character isn't even loved by his author, loads of Uchiha cock rubbing, emo wrist cutting loving evil leader, and pitiful fights. However, there is one thing that makes me stand all this garbage.

The Mist village. Kisame and the influence of Zabuza>>>>all of 666 Satan. As long as there are Mist ninja in this series I will always be able to enjoy Naruto.


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## Aldric (Dec 25, 2007)

I wouldn't say pre rescue Sasuke arc Naruto was one of the best shonen ever, but it was definitely enjoyable. Post TS is basically a gigantic circle jerk focused on a clan of pink eyed bishonen midgets while the hero is downgraded to secondary character status and becomes one of the worst protagonists ever, all that drawn in coloring book style. Utter garbage.


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## RamzaBeoulve (Dec 25, 2007)

Dimezanime18 said:


> Wait, *you guys actually think that Seishi can draw better than Masashi*? And what is so great about the story of 666Satan?


karin and sakura look like guys, i think that is enough reason


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## Fulla (Dec 25, 2007)

I've read many mangas and serioulsy after reading Naruto, call me a fan boy but none of the others come close.

*'Sasuke'*
Seems im against everyone here but I actually found Sasuke to be a very good character amongst many other great ones. 
I LIKE the way the secondary character is STRONGER that the main character.
Its just so boring like in say Bleach where Ichigo is god and everyone else is fodder, even with there powerups you still know Ishida/Chad etc are worthless.

*Plot*
We still have no idea how the story will go, whos the main villian? Pein, Madara, Itachi, Oro? What will happen next etc?  love that about Naruto.
He has a great way of keeping each chapter exciting, usually somehow manganging ending each chapter with a cliff hanger.

*'Balance*
But most of all what I love is that there are NO invincible characters, everyone is killable and beatable. This is something I think Mashashi developed very well.
Even with chars like Pein and Itachi, sure there very strong, but they will go down, which I think keeps it more interesting.

*'Females'*
I only bring this up because ppl bash Naruto so much for this silly reason.
YES not every single female is a super model with gigantic tits. They look normal, how they should be, again mainly refering to above point, they have there flaws but its what makes them human.

*Time Skip*
I guess im the only one who actually liked the time skip?
Although I do agree the Save Gaara + Immortal acr were a little underpar with the rest but the last chapters have been awesome.


Other mangas I quite like
- Bleach
- Guyver
- Gantz
- Death Note
- (Hell Sing but not as good as above)

Others I just couldnt get into, 666 Satan, D.Gray man, One Piece etc. etc.


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## MdB (Dec 25, 2007)

Fulla said:


> *'Sasuke'*
> Seems im against everyone here but I actually found Sasuke to be a very good character amongst many other great ones.
> I LIKE the way the secondary character is STRONGER that the main character.
> Its just so boring like in say Bleach where Ichigo is god and everyone else is fodder, even with there powerups you still know Ishida/Chad etc are worthless.



Sasuke is everything but good. He's a carbon-copy of a boring overdone Shonen cliche that is supported by shitty writing that only Kubo Tite and Rumiko Takahashi could match in execution and storytelling. I dont care if an author makes his secondary characters stronger than his main one, because there's a difference between making them a bit inferior or completely steal there spotlight by downgrading them to something disgusting and unbearable. Using Bleach as an example isn't the smartest thing to do when Inuyasha is the only Shonen manga with a bigger downward spiral of extreme faggotry.


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## Aldric (Dec 25, 2007)

Fulla said:


> I only bring this up because ppl bash Naruto so much for this silly reason.
> YES not every single female is a super model with gigantic tits. They look normal, how they should be, again mainly refering to above point, they have there flaws but its what makes them human.



That's pretty hilarious. Kishimoto himself admits he can't draw females for shit, but somehow people can spin that clear cut flaw into a positive thing. "They don't look like supermodels! They're more human!!!". It's pretty fucking obvious Kishi tries to draw them as supermodels and miserably fails. It is not a conscious decision on his part, nor is it a good thing.


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## Parallax (Dec 25, 2007)

Fulla said:


> I've read many mangas and serioulsy after reading Naruto, call me a fan boy but none of the others come close.
> 
> *'Sasuke'*
> Seems im against everyone here but I actually found Sasuke to be a very good character amongst many other great ones.
> ...



You sir, need to read more manga.


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## The Drunken Monkey (Dec 25, 2007)

Some people like 666 Satan's Timeskip, I don't. It's just not as interesting and just plain lacking of interest. Though, when they were on Rock Bird? Or the place before the Timeskip. That was the highest point of 666 Satan for me.

I perfer characters in Naruto though,  especially Yondaime/Jiraiya/SasuGod, IMO. But yeah, Naruto is getting a little better so far.

I'm going to say Masashi gets it just by a scratch though.


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## Aokiji (Dec 25, 2007)

Fulla said:


> I've read many mangas and serioulsy after reading Naruto, call me a fan boy but none of the others come close.
> 
> *'Sasuke'*
> Seems im against everyone here but I actually found Sasuke to be a very good character amongst many other great ones.
> ...



"The grestest genius is mediocre before an Uchiha (sharingan)." The Uchiha clan is what makes the manga shit.


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## MdB (Dec 25, 2007)

Aokiji said:


> "The grestest genius is mediocre before an Uchiha (sharingan)." The Uchiha clan is what makes the manga shit.



And the new major antagonist called Pein, FUCKING PEIN/PIJN/PAIN!


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## fxu (Dec 25, 2007)

I got bored of Satan666 around chapter 25.

I'm still reading Naruto.


That pretty much sums up who I think is better overall.


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## Muk (Dec 25, 2007)

Except for the ending in 666 Satan I liked it, all the way.

Though it did take some time for it to pick up.

The first arc of naruto (the wave country arc) was a masterpiece and the gaara arc too was great, but afterwards, it just came down to money whoring and it isn't even fun reading most of it anymore. time skip was shit.

considering this "contract" is suppose to only last one year, meaning roughly 52 chapters in a week or 12 chapters a month, i'd say i'd give it to the younger brother.

he can develop a lot in these 12 chapters with his quality drawing and story telling, though masashi could potentially also write something really good for  52 chapters.

but afterwards his story would probably stink.


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## KLoWn (Dec 25, 2007)

I've always liked Naruto better than 666 Satan, so Masash for me.


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## Bresakar (Dec 25, 2007)

Well in style Masashi is better than Seishi though both started with the same one 

Story-wise both developped very different.
In my opinion, Masashi made one of the greatest shounen manga after the legacy of DragonBall with the Part I story but with Part II he made huge mistakes like the whole Immortals Arc and Sasuke dominance thing  and some mistakes in his style of storytelling, e.g. wrong linkage of sideplots with the main plot.

Seishi's manga started out very ordinary but became really special in the middle. Atfer time-skip he had the same problems as his brother and never made it back to old glory. 

I still prefer Masashi's story since it's just more my taste than Satan 666


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## neostar8710 (Dec 25, 2007)

naruto was definitely amazing in the beginning, i personally loved all of part 1, but got bored of it during the sasori fight, god, that was awful. then i started loving it during the immortal arc, which to me, was the best fight in part 2. since then, it has maintained my interest. but the thing that bothers me is how bad the drawings got. everything seems so blocky, especially the hair. i think the best drawings were in volume 18. 

666 satan had a pretty boring start, but got good after the wise arc, and the drawings definitely got better. especially the way he drew hair, very good. but what got annoying was how all the women had humongo boobs. it got annoying.  and everything in the time skip was good until the final little arc, which was pretty bad. but still a fun read, especially the rock bird arc.

so i'm gonna have to say seishi is better


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## tictactoc (Dec 25, 2007)

Seishi and Masashi have the same drawing style. Seishi has a whole month to draw his chapters, so of course it will look better :/ If Masashi can be a little corny sometimes (will of fire etc...), he still correctly executes those scenes. On the other hand Seishi's dialogues are corny, his flashbacks are boring, and the storyline was just well, crappy.
 Nothing happened, Jio became a big Gary stu after the timeskip, Rubi transformed into a stupid limbo , and the whole jazz with her father was a failure.
And I won't talk about the final battle !!! "lolz it's not so bad to be with people u no §§§§!!!33 "
Seriously Masashi all the way. Even though his editors are fucking his manga up with the whole Sasuke focus, he's still able to deliver a decent story with interesting characters. 666 satan just has Ball
And seriously y'all should stop caring about supa hot females with big boobs in shonen, read some hentai if you want pictures to fap to -__-.


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## Castiel (Dec 25, 2007)

Only read up till the fight between Jio and the guy with the 2 teleporting hoop OPTs , so I don't know much about 666satan.
Naruto was pretty damn good till the skip.  I still read it since I'd read it up to that point, might as well stick around to see it end.

Based on beginning and first few arcs, Naruto takes this, though several parts of the art are a bit inferior to 666 though 666 is monthly.

Also seriously people this is a thread about 2 Kishimotos so stop just using "Kishimoto" as a name of 1 person it's confusing


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 25, 2007)

i agree, i happen to have no problem with the female designs in naruto, and even though they may not be as femaley as seishi's they still work. And yes the sasuke element in naruto does get annoying(which makes the character even more annoying) but this is just his time in the spotlight, which all the other members of team 7 will get as well if we go by masashi's interview, just have some fucking patience. At the end of the manga your going to be hitting your head against the wall wondering how the hell it got so flowing when you read it all in one go.


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## Karin Maaka (Dec 26, 2007)

I like them both about equally, but maybe Seishi more, because he doesn't ride one character's cock the whole way. :S


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## Blind Weasel (Dec 26, 2007)

I have to say Seishi makes better fanservice... (  )

But teh Itachi came from kishimoto so he's still up n my list [/tard]...


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## Kuroro (Dec 26, 2007)

I'd say Masashi is the superior mangaka. In terms of drawing characters, I'd say Seishi has the edge. I find characters like Jio, Ball, and Ruby to be more entertaining and better well-drawn than characters like Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura. Masashi, however, is superior in terms of drawing scenery.

I find Naruto to be more well-written than 666 Satan. The only major problem I have with how Masashi writes Naruto is the simple fact his answer to a problem is to put "Sasuke/Uchiha" in the hole in order to fix it. Uchihas are at the root of every little thing in the manga, and I dislike how the main character is too dependent upon a secondary main character for character development and other yadda-yadda. I find it to be boring and not a display of tactical genius from Masashi's part. Seishi was alright, but he never did anything "amazing" - IMO. 

As for the timeskips, I'd say both mangakas are a bit tied here. I find Part II for Naruto enjoyable. Instead of everything circling around Konoha, Kishimoto expanded it to include other villages as we've seen in Akatsuki for example. The Gaara Arc started off good before things went downhill. The only saving grace for Sai and Sasuke was KN4 vs Oro and the comedy we got from Yamato/Sai. The Immortals Arc was a decent arc, and the current arc isn't too shabby currently. Masashi ruined it though the moment he made Madara responsible for every little thing in the manga. He's probably behind the Uchiha Massacre, he's probably behind the Kyuubi attack, he's probably behind Akatsuki, and he'll probably be behind Root. Wow...Genius way to write. Lastly, I'd like to add I find Masashi making Naruto too dependent upon Sasuke to be biting him in the ass because Sasuke is now approaching the line of becoming a character I find exceptionally annoying: An author's darling.

Seishi's timeskip wasn't spectacular as well. It felt as if the manga sort of lost focus after the timeskip. It was off to find Ruby, beat Zenom, beat Stea, and resolved everything with relevations Satan kindly provided in the ending. I found the ending rather appropriate for such a series, even though I did find myself a bit disappointed about how things were initially handled. The final fights were decent, but far from being entertaining.

To put it simply, neither Naruto or 666 Satan are amazing/spectacular/wonderful/whatever series, but I'd recommend Naruto over 666 Satan anyday. Still, if Kishimoto keeps on going as he has been going here lately with a few things such as placing Uchihas in every little root in the manga and constantly side-stepping the main character because Masashi can't stand making Naruto somewhat independent from Sasuke, a "good" series is about to reach "average", the same rating I give for 666 Satan.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 26, 2007)

well remember that naruto has to grow up, as well as sakura..that could possibly have to do with naruto's hard-on for sasuke. Perhaps masashi already knows about this and plans to deal with it accordingly?


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## P.I.G (Dec 26, 2007)

Aldric said:


> That's pretty hilarious. Kishimoto himself admits he can't draw females for shit, but somehow people can spin that clear cut flaw into a positive thing. "They don't look like supermodels! They're more human!!!". It's pretty fucking obvious Kishi tries to draw them as supermodels and miserably fails. It is not a conscious decision on his part, nor is it a good thing.




it's better then the stickfigures with breast we see Oda draw. but now that I think about it, I think he admitted he can't draw women either.


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## -Demian- (Dec 27, 2007)

I like 666satan more because it IS better, and its more adult thing, not like naruto...
the difference bethween naruto and 66satans main chars is that while Jio has grown up and isnt acting like a idiot anymore , naruto hasnt ever grown mature 
other thing is that characters actually changed after timeskip they werent just bigger in size with same face n all
face lines and bodily attributes changed trough out the manga even without timeskip,unlike naruto where characters never change anything except theyre outfit(misspelled lol )
also the ideas for weapons are better not reusing the same thing allover again

for example : naruto learner rasengan->odama rasengan->shuriken rasengan
 while Jio's O-part was a boomerang with double power -> giant shuriken what would return like boomerang triple power -> a ring that's blades were as big as persons hate (wow sasuke is gonna get pwnd by that) + he could use it with a combination with his left hand

and the backstories of characters isnt over streched giving out every little insignificant detail of theyre life, just the ones that count.
also it isnt like in naruto that the main char is the most stupid and only seems to know 3 words:dattebayo , rasengan , sasuke


so in overall 666Satan>Naruto


P.S. excuse my bad grammar , little tired here so im not bothering with it


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## Codde (Dec 27, 2007)

Fulla said:


> *'Sasuke'*
> Seems im against everyone here but I actually found Sasuke to be a very good character amongst many other great ones.
> I LIKE the way the secondary character is STRONGER that the main character.
> Its just so boring like in say Bleach where Ichigo is god and everyone else is fodder, even with there powerups you still know Ishida/Chad etc are worthless.


I agree with that completely, even though I didn't like pre-timeskip Sasuke all that much, that aspect of it was at least good. 

f not for his presence (and nice change of character) post-timeskip, I probably wouldn't enjoy Naruto nearly as much (not that I enjoy it a lot now, but it's improving.)

I wouldn't really give the edge to either one when comparing their current mangas. Naruto started out strongly, but the only arc that I'd be inclined to consider above-average for a Shounen would be the Wave Country (which was only the first 4-5 volumes). Though I wouldn't say 666 Satan ever reached the level of that arc, but it had a few enjoyable portions. 

And I felt that it really developed the world many times better than Naruto did (which had potential but failed to come close to living up to it), though you can probably chalk that up to Naruto being more character-centric (though 666 Satan still develops the character as well IMO) and 666 Satan more adventure-based. But given a new manga, I think that Seishi would probably make the more interesting manga..


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## Aldric (Dec 27, 2007)

P.I.G said:


> it's better then the stickfigures with breast we see Oda draw. but now that I think about it, I think he admitted he can't draw women either.



No, it isn't. And at least in One Piece you can tell the difference between a man and a woman.

And there you go, another OP vs Naruto argument.


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## -Demian- (Dec 27, 2007)

So many are telling here that they did/didn't like 666Satan's end
but i thought that it's still continuing maybe it's because im watching it "online" at bleacexile.com 
is it already had it's end 0.o?

theres been translated till 72


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## dbzNSking (Dec 27, 2007)

I never read a Kishimoto Seishi  story so i'll go wit the other Kishimoto


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## Mori` (Dec 27, 2007)

Masashi for a variety of reasons.


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## Kuroro (Dec 27, 2007)

Inuhanyou said:


> well remember that naruto has to grow up, as well as sakura..that could possibly have to do with naruto's hard-on for sasuke. Perhaps masashi already knows about this and plans to deal with it accordingly?



Well, Naruto is being saved for last. That allows Masashi to revolve everything around Naruto to some degree because he is the most important character. Still, the development towards the Naruto-Sasuke plotline has always been "Sasuke leads, and Naruto follows. Repeat it with Naruto leads, and Sasuke follows." Both Sasuke's character development and Naruto's character development has been troublesome a bit for Part Ii because of the formula Kishimoto repeatedly used in Part I. 

I'd like to see some independence like what we saw in the Gaara Arc. Pein happens to be a twisted version of the Shodai Hogake, so perhaps this will do some good for Naruto. Still, people who find the first half of Part II annoying are still going to remember it even if Naruto does finally receive some long overdues as Part II is coming to an end.


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## -Demian- (Dec 27, 2007)

Damn .... 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 i wist Jio would hadn't died


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## Lilykt7 (Dec 27, 2007)

Uh no, The better artist is a matter of opinion and in my opinion Naruto Kishi is the better artist. I've read 666 and often times the angle is awkward or the porportions are a little wierd. These could be problems in Naruto as well however I just think it's more cleaner. I also perfer naruto character designs. 

They have similar styles but they're still two different people, they're gonna attract different people.


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## ~Shin~ (Dec 27, 2007)

I dropped Naruto so that should tell how much I care about it. Primary reason being the ever so annoying Sasuke who represents the very epitome of shounen cliche. I mean the kid with a bad past wanting revenge has NEVER been done before.....

I liked Seishi better cuz the whole adventure feel that Seishi gave to the manga was nice. I haven't read the ending yet so my opinion might drastically change but I liked everything else. The characters weren't overly annoying and all of them served their purpose in entertaining. Thank god we had no Saucefag...


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 27, 2007)

"saucefag" as you call him serves his own purpose to the manga, dropping the series cause of BS reasons like that is called tardism/whining. Its better then all the BS plotholes and crap i actually saw in 666 AFTER i went back and reread the series from start to finish, seriously its no contest untill seishi shows me he can make a good manga without crapping it up halfway down the line.


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## ~Shin~ (Dec 27, 2007)

When did I say he doesn't serve a purpose? He serves a very pathetic, poor, and trite purpose to the manga. It's the fact that Kishi places so much emphasis on him and yet is unable to produce any kind of decent development in his character. He's been almost the same person from start to finish. Not to mention the retconned sharingan and I can see teh chakra and the all the powers that he pulls out off his ass all of a sudden. 

And I don't see why dropping a manga because of stupid cliches is a "BS reason". If you want me to give other reasons: the fights are retarded beyond reason, mostly every character is superficial and barely any development overall, plot moves at a ridiculously slow rate, and grounding of cliches repeatedly. 

Seishi made no masterpiece but at least he kept everything consistent for the most part. And I value that more than the shit that Kishi pulls out.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 27, 2007)

no development of characters? you serious?


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## ~Shin~ (Dec 27, 2007)

Do tell me how Sasuke has changed much? He started out as a kid who wanted revenge and alienated himself from others. Now guess how he is? 

Naruto started out as an eccentric ninja who wants to help his friends and become the strongest. Now Naruto barely even has a personality because it's all just "Let's rescue Saucekay guys"

Sakura's pretty much the same. The only development I can see in her that she's changed in her mentality and attitude towards Naruto. 

Other than that they're all no different than the every other one dimensional shounen cliche.


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## Aldric (Dec 27, 2007)

Sakura is the only developped character in part 2, and God knows she drastically needed it.

Naruto has actually been downgraded and Sasuke lost the very little personality he once had to become a ridiculous Poochie-like robot churning out pseudo cool one liners and poses. 

Let's not even talk about secondary characters like Lee, Gaara or Neji who fell in background hell.


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## Parallax (Dec 27, 2007)

Inuhanyou said:


> no development of characters? you serious?



Character development in that series is thin at best.


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## MdB (Dec 27, 2007)

Character development in Naruto consist of collected Sasuke emotions that turned into one giant groundbreaking Sasuke fetish festival. DO NOT WANT!


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 27, 2007)

r u sure about that? Cause from what i remember naruto isnt the same annoying loud kid he  was in pt.1, sasuke i agree hasnt changed but that's why i hate him, and sakura went from hating naruto, and basiclly being a sasuke fangirl who didnt do anything at all particularly, to actually being about the strength of kabuto in just under 3 years, i'd say it was quite a change myself. 

And its not even character development i was trying to drive home anyway.

atleast naruto has subplots that are resolved, 666 just went off the deepend with quite a few hung ends and rushed elements, such as "why the fuck did cross even say ruby had untapped potential if she only used her power one time?"  or "zekuto crescent had his entire scene resolved in less then 2 chapters, i figured he'd had abit more to say then cheesy dialouge" or maybe "why did everyone go into outerspace at the end with jio for some random reason not explained?" ever perhaps "why all the build up to miko and have her killed in 4 pages?" Or even the retarded one like "how did kujaku die standing up and where did his body mysteriously go?"

666 satan is a good series i admit that, and the designs are good, and the battles were great, and even the character development i admit was pretty good as well. But these questions(and many more) just add up as lack of coherency in the overall scheme and hurt the manga, nevermind the rush job to the ending.


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## MdB (Dec 27, 2007)

The louzy brat with balls of steel that had an actual interesting personality was a shitload better than the current angsty little shithead that thinks of nothing but Sasuke. Indeed, great development.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 27, 2007)

"Naruto needs to grow up". Do you actually think masashi hasnt thought of that angle? He knows naruto has a hard on for sasuke, this is going to take that away and have naruto focus on the big picture again..atleast that's how i see it.


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## Codde (Dec 27, 2007)

Thugnificent said:


> Character development in that series is thin at best.


In terms of change, Sasuke cleary has changed. His goals still remain the same, but as a person he's changed. Even in a life or death situation, he didn't get "angry" against Deidara and never attempted to kill him. He was certainly more openly-unfriendly and angsty before. 

In terms of characterization, I'd say Kishimoto goes a bit overboard with the repeated flashbacks and doesn't really develop (in the sense of creation not change) the character in much of a good way. But you can get a good gauge of his character, it isn't that difficult to tell what he'd do in a situation if you look at past incidents Kishimoto as put him in.

As for being the epitome of cliche... when compared to Naruto (or even Kakashi), I don't see how he's so far ahead of them in clicheness. From the series I've seen at least, Naruto's personality type is a lot more comment, and Sasuke's hardly ubiquitous. 

Though there's clearly some anti-Sasuke sentinments in this thread...


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## Aldric (Dec 27, 2007)

Vegeta, Hiei, Kal Su, Hyunkel (Dai no Daiboken) are all characters that fit Sasuke's personality traits to a tee. There's probably far more, but from the series I've read those immediately come to mind. Revenge obsessed "dark" angsty impassive character is definitely an archetype at least as common as the loud dumbfuck with an heart of gold.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 27, 2007)

naruto came out in 1999 right...that's almost 10 years ago now, back then i'm sure it wasnt as cliche back then as what people think nowadays...

Besides, there's a diffrence between cliche and common traits. Sasuke is a direct antithesis to naruto the same way vegeta was to goku, i'd call that a tribute not really "copying" perse.


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## Codde (Dec 27, 2007)

A few characters out of tens of thousands isn't much. The "idiotic happy-go-lucky kid with a dream to be the best", from the series I've watched/read is a *lot* more overdone. It could be merely a coincidence of watching series that use different archetypes.

But I wouldn't consider Sasuke anymore, he's certainly a lot less emotional than someone like Vegeta. 

You could even say he's a nicer guy than Naruto. One tests out an incomplete deadly technique on someone that could very likely kill him and at the very least cause him great pain. The other spares almost everyone and generally tries to finish things quickly. He is actually saving people as he goes about his goals, rather than do anything just to bring back a "friend" that doesn't want to be brought back.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 27, 2007)

Now dont go onto a naruto bashing spiel, naruto has his values, and sasuke has his. There's no reason to compare them except as archetypes.


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Dec 27, 2007)

Aldric said:


> Vegeta, Hiei, Kal Su, Hyunkel (Dai no Daiboken) are all characters that fit Sasuke's personality traits to a tee. There's probably far more, but from the series I've read those immediately come to mind. Revenge obsessed "dark" angsty impassive character is definitely an archetype at least as common as the loud dumbfuck with an heart of gold.



Ryoga Hibiki from Ranma 1/2

He should not miss on any list that contains the words 'dark', 'angsty' and 'revenge'. Heck, he has a whole technique that revolves around his depression.

Zelgadis from Slayers would fit too I guess, at least in the beginning...

Wolfwood from Trigun as well. Kinda.


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## Aldric (Dec 27, 2007)

Yeah ok he's a nicer guy than Naruto. He simply tried to kill his friends and is a traitor to his village, but somehow Naruto is a BIG MEANIE because he killed some fucked up spaghetti monster who eats heart and is a S ranked criminal while Sasuke gets a free pass because he spared the CRAAAAB PEOPLE. Makes a whole lot of sense.

And Sasuke's "development" basically consisted of him losing all personality as I said. So of course in the process he got rid of the majority of what made him unbearable, but as a result he's now basically as lively and expressive as a bread toaster. So I'm not exactly sure it's something worthy of praise.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 27, 2007)

@Alucard - You forgot amon from witch hunter robin, sesshoumaru from inuyasha. Their emo attitudes are based on lashing out at the world in some ridiculous and misguided fashion as well "oh look at me my mom went crazy and killed hundreds of people in front of me before she was killed!" "oh look at me my dad liked by brother more then me and he gets all the cool stuff!"

Same type of archetype


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## cha-uzu (Dec 27, 2007)

Inuhanyou said:


> "Naruto needs to grow up". Do you actually think masashi hasnt thought of that angle? He knows naruto has a hard on for sasuke, this is going to take that away and have naruto focus on the big picture again..atleast that's how i see it.


he thought of it but he wants to focus on Sasuke now... He said Naruto (Main Character) had to wait and that this is Sasuke's year...



Inuhanyou said:


> naruto came out in 1999 right...that's almost 10 years ago now, back then i'm sure it wasnt as cliche back then as what people think nowadays...
> 
> Besides, there's a diffrence between cliche and common traits. Sasuke is a direct antithesis to naruto the same way vegeta was to goku, i'd call that a tribute not really "copying" perse.


But Vegeta NEVER out classed Goku on no level. Goku lost what one time to Vegeta in one of the most impressive fights ever (If he did lose its been so long...). Goku never got pwned by his secondary character... Naruto and Sasuke are like if Goku was still just Kayo Ken  Goku and Vageta was SS4... Never happened.


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## Lilykt7 (Dec 27, 2007)

Guys this about Kishi versus Kishi, what are you doing?


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 27, 2007)

cha-uzu said:


> he thought of it but he wants to focus on Sasuke now... He said Naruto (Main Character) had to wait and that this is Sasuke's year...



I meant that naruto once he learns of jiraiya's death will not follow sasuke anymore and instead focus on destroying the akatsuki.




> But Vegeta NEVER out classed Goku on no level. Goku lost what one time to Vegeta in one of the most impressive fights ever (If he did lose its been so long...). Goku never got pwned by his secondary character... Naruto and Sasuke are like if Goku was still just Kayo Ken  Goku and Vageta was SS4... Never happened.



GT is not canon, but in Z there was a small part that vegeta was much stronger then goku(between the times goku had the heart virus and when he got out of the room of spirit and time before goku.

And besides, i do NOT think that sasuke "outclasses" naruto by any means. Yes sasuke is faster then naruto but naruto has his own skills that keep him afloat, he's not going to have the same abilities.


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## Monna (Dec 27, 2007)

Naruto and 666 Satan are both two of my very favorite fighting shonens. The only fighting shonen I like better than them is Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.

Its a shame that Seshi ruined the end of 666 Satan, but that dosn't take away want an amazing manga it was. Its the journey that will remain in my mind.

The thing I don't like about Naruto is Sasuke and Kishimoto's recent butchering of characters. The manga will probably get better once the whole Sasuke vs. Itachi deal is over with.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 27, 2007)

What do you mean "butchering of characters" could you please explain that?


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## Monna (Dec 27, 2007)

Inuhanyou said:


> What do you mean "butchering of characters" could you please explain that?


Mabye "butchering" was a bad word. I'm talking about Sasuke's one dimensional obsession for Itachi and Naruto's one dimension obsession for resuing Sasuke. Also the fact they none of the other characters even matter anymore and are wasted potential.

Naruto is still one of my favorite mangas though and dispite how much hate it gets I still love it.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 27, 2007)

Not to argue with you but i happen to agree, because naruto continously running after sasuke and sasuke just trying to kill itachi without any regard for anyone else really annoys me. Hopefully jiraiya's death will do it for naruto while sasuke killing itachi will do it for sasuke..somehow i just don't feel that kishimoto is unaware of their singleminded goals. And he's going to change it up very soon i feel..


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## Monna (Dec 27, 2007)

Yeah, I'm thinking that also.


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## Fulla (Dec 28, 2007)

I honestly dont see why ppl complain about Sasuke's character?
He was living with OROCHIMARU for 2 1/2 - 3 years, I dont think hes going to turn into an angel? 

Why did he go to Oro, oh yea to become strong enough to defeat Itachi? So after 3 years of training to KILL Itachi hes suddenly going to loose interest? If anything that would be absurd.
He has had alot of character development, if you look closely at his fights and the way he leads team Hebi you'll see hes grownup alot.
He alot more calm & coolheaded, showing alot more maturity, leadership, & determination to complete his objective.

Now Naruto, in the same way,has been training for 3 years to save Sasuke? Same reason as above, unlikely hes just going to just change his mind.
Now I cant disagree that it is becoming a bit absurd with him basically getting Tsunade to order any mission, no matter how reckless to go find a missing Ninja, but then again the plot has to keep going.

Now Jiraya has died, we'll definetly see a different Naruto I think. As Kishi said himself he'll have to grow up, he cant continue to the kid anymore.
We'll also see the conclusion of the Sasuke v Itachi fight soon probably, no dought this will have an effect on Sasuke & change him.

===

If anything the whole Uchiha thing IMO is what has made the manga great, I mean if you take out the whole uchiha Sasuke/Itachi/Madara + perhaps Kakashi's sharingan, the manga would be no where near as exciting.

===

'Butchering' characters?
Im not sure  what ppl are refering to hear.

But one thing that saddened me was the way Akatsuki members were/are being swiped left and right. 
I thought Deidara was pulled of brilliantly with him constantly escaping & you gradually learning more about him and beginning to like him as the manga went on.
His death was great as well, he got a great fight& then choose to suicide bomb as opposed to be looked down upon by an Uchiha.

I think it would have been better had atleast the Squid Akatsuki guy survived I forgot his name & perhaps later on say roughly now Hidan re-emerges having being re-put together.
Its would setup a great rematch for Konoha Ninja's like Shikimaru etc.


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## MdB (Dec 28, 2007)

Inuhanyou said:


> "Naruto needs to grow up". Do you actually think masashi hasnt thought of that angle? He knows naruto has a hard on for sasuke, this is going to take that away and have naruto focus on the big picture again..atleast that's how i see it.



I'd expected a more mature Naruto as soon as the time-skip took place, but instead we got the same Naruto (who didn't learn a damn thing after 2 years) with a Sasuke obsession. The authors line of him growing up is the last thing I'm waiting for since he's gonna focus even more on Sasuke. FUN FUN FUN!!


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 28, 2007)

post timekskip naruto didnt have the emotional maturity post jiraiya will, remember that he's just be training with jiraiya this whole time, there was no major emotional investment to make him "zoom the camera out and see the lie" so to speak. His master's death will do this. Infact i'd say jiraiya went on that trip with naruto in order for kishi to show naruto had a strong bond with him before killing em off.


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## Roy Mustang (Dec 28, 2007)

Masashi drags thing too long, naruto should have been over by now. But Seishi ended 666 Satan fucking stupid. So its pretty hard to choose.


I have to go with Seishi tho, the plot and style way better.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 28, 2007)

there are series's with much worse presentation then naruto, maybe its that which makes me more appreciative of it. Inuyasha is a perfect example, probably one of the worst ways a series's can get bogged down. And you know its bad when there is filler IN THE MANGA every other week as opposed to plot like naruto has.(aka inuyasha SHOULD have ended 5 to 6 years ago and everything that's happend up to this point before the final battle was just filler with no consequence to the outcome of the series.)


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## cha-uzu (Dec 28, 2007)

Well to answer the thread topic.

Seishi has better art and Masashi has the better story although not so much lately. I mean since Chapter 305 Sasuke has been the main focus of the manga, and the Main Character has only had a 1 chapter fight... We are at chapter 383 and now Kishi says the Naruto has to wait? thats 78 chapters! AND COUNTING. Masashi needs to focus on the story instead of fanservicing. Part 1 was one of the best manga's I've ever read but Part 2 has been spotty. Best parts were Jiraiya's fight and death and Kn4 vs. Oro. Everything else seemed weak. Sasuke isn't the problem it the effort that goes into showing him off, and making his story the plot of the manga. Couple thats with this 78 Chapter coup and the plot being centered around Uchihas... Where does Naruto actually fit?


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## Harlita (Dec 31, 2007)

Knuckle said:


> Some people like 666 Satan's Timeskip, I don't. It's just not as interesting and just plain lacking of interest. Though, when they were on Rock Bird? Or the place before the Timeskip. That was the highest point of 666 Satan for me.
> 
> I perfer characters in Naruto though,  especially Yondaime/Jiraiya/SasuGod, IMO. But yeah, Naruto is getting a little better so far.
> 
> I'm going to say Masashi gets it just by a scratch though.



How about the fact that one of the main reason's for a timeskip is to provide growth in the characters without having to draw out the story to no end.


What people want is to see their favorite characters in a new way. Grown up or with new jutsu, new styles, new attitudes, etc. To remind us that we can always change but be, still ourselves.


Naruto came back aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaas oh.. Naruto!  Sakura... still Sakura... 
timeskip did nothing in Naruto except make everyone 2.5 years older.



In 666Satan, everyone got new techniques and grew up a hell of a lot more.


Plus Seishi created Ball. I mean.. cmon.. Ball is fucking AWESOME.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 31, 2007)

What you said doesnt make sense harlita, your assuming that the naruto characters had to get automatic pwns badass after two fucking years, while it was 7 years in 666, and ball got two techniqes, while jio got an upgrade to zero. There's NOTHING you can use to compare the two timeskips and say "666's timeskip is better then naruto's" because really, in a longer series like naruto its more drawn out as opposed to a 70 something series like 666.

And jio was the same as part 1, except a little more mellow, same as naruto, ruby was basiclly the same, ball was the same, hell everyfucking body was the same in part 2 of 666 with just a new body, except probably cross who changed the most in righteous attitude.

I don't know about you, maybe i just like my characters grown slowly and surely as opposed to they go off and all of a sudden come back all super powered without even an explanation as to what they did.


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## Toffeeman (Dec 31, 2007)

Seishi in a rapestomp.

If 666 Satan was published weekly in Jump like Naruto has been, it would be infinately more popular than it was.


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 31, 2007)

^ or maybe it wouldent have been and people just like ninja's more 

although the readers would atleast know masashi had a brother who worked on a manga  

As opposed to now where little to noone except people who read up on masashi actually know


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## Aldric (Dec 31, 2007)

Inuhanyou said:


> ball was the same



No, not at all. Ball in part 1 was still very much the coward/comic relief character. Post time skip he kept his funny quirks while becoming an awesome inspirational character with great fighting abilities. Did you miss the fight against Mei's brother perhaps?


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## Inuhanyou (Dec 31, 2007)

No i did not forget , he still seemed to be comic relief to me, ball got over his cowardice when he had to save his friends from that zenom agent, that wasnt post timeskip material as he already had that...ruby got some kinda half battle i dunno even what it was, the 2 dudes who were in the rock bird tournament basiclly just floated off somewhere without doing anything substantial even with all that backstory on how the guy got his special suit and everything...we only got to assume jin had a nucleus with no explanation as to how he got it...we didnt even see the other 5 angels just the ones "coincidentally" got them one by one like the super saiyan transformation...now that i think about it wasnt that cohesive


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## theshad (Dec 31, 2007)

Naruto has been one of the worst mangas I have ever read since the timeskip started. Seishi all the way.


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## *uzumaki-naruto* (Jan 1, 2008)

Masashi all the way 666 satan had all the layouts for a great manga but left to many things unexplained. Plus i prefer the character designs in Part 2 Naruto more that Part 2 666 cause am i the only one who got bored of Jio?


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## Hibari Kyoya (Jan 1, 2008)

Seishi without a shadow of a doubt, Masashi is just greedy with money.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 1, 2008)

Hibari Kyoya said:


> Seishi without a shadow of a doubt, Masashi is just greedy with money.



how do you figure that? Just cause he's focused on sasuke's subplot? Yea great reason  Not really.


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## Aldric (Jan 1, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> No i did not forget , he still seemed to be comic relief to me, ball got over his cowardice when he had to save his friends from that zenom agent, that wasnt post timeskip material as he already had that..



Ball had far more importance in part 2. Hell you can say he was the one who made the biggest progress fighting wise, mainly becoming the best OPT in the world and a great tactical fighter. He also became a strong inspiration for other characters, including Mei. Which btw is a far better couple than anything in Naruto.

As for the rest at least Seishi had the decency to not downgrade his main character, even if he turned him into a Gary Stue at least he's a powerful Gary Stue.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 1, 2008)

ball and mei wasnt expanded upon, besides the fact that mei just figured out jio loved somebody else and ball settled that thing with her brother. there wasnt any other inclination in that relationship except some blushing until post timeskip which was about 3 pages.

now that's all i have to say in this thread, plz dont respond to this, you can take it as if you won the debate if you want, i'm just tired of debating my opinion


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## Ippy (Jan 2, 2008)

They both started strong, and both seem to have made some mistakes in their respective timeskips.

I'll come to a true conclusion when the Naruto manga ends.





Aldric said:


> Ball had far more importance in part 2. Hell you can say he was the one who made the biggest progress fighting wise, mainly becoming the best OPT in the world and a great tactical fighter. He also became a strong inspiration for other characters, including Mei. Which btw is a far better couple than anything in Naruto.


Agreed.


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