# Kakashi (No MS) vs Tsunade



## Santoryu (Aug 6, 2018)

ic
30 m
konoha
manga knowledge

this is WA kakashi


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## Kisame (Aug 6, 2018)




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## Santoryu (Aug 6, 2018)

x


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## Kisame (Aug 6, 2018)

Tsunade's reputation isn't helping her here, Kakashi was recognized by the Rikūdo Sennin.

Kakashi's rep > Sannin rep.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Android (Aug 6, 2018)

Tsunade makes Kakashi her bitch.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 6, 2018)

Without Kamui Kakashi cannot realistically win.

3T Kakashi isn't really a match for strong Kage in general tbh.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## Android (Aug 6, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> 3T Kakashi isn't really a match for strong Kage in general tbh

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 6, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Without Kamui Kakashi cannot realistically win.
> 
> 3T Kakashi isn't really a match for strong Kage in general tbh.


Not necessarily true, he nearly defeated Asura & Deva with only 3-toma and virtually no knowledge, albeit with some help.

As far as this matchup is concerned Kakashi will wound her numerous times but eventually fail to kill her. If he can't sever her head he can't win and I don't think he can manage that against Tsunade - the speed gap isn't large enough and Tsunade prevented 5 V3 Madara Susanos from doing so for an extended period while brawling with them in CQC.

Tsunade probably grabs him at some point when she discovers his movement tendencies then he's jabbed in the face, and he'll be killed instantly.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bonly (Aug 6, 2018)

Kakashi needs Kamui to have a shot against Tsunade so without it he’ll get punched and turned into red mist


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## Gianfi (Aug 6, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> ic
> 30 m
> konoha
> manga knowledge
> ...


Without ms I don’t see him beat someone like tsunade


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 6, 2018)

MS makes Kakashi a legit opponent for low to mid kages. And even then he is not certainly superior to all of 'em.

So even with MS he aint clear victor over Tsunade.

So now he is off MS . And hoped to defeat Tsunade ? When world become a Genjutsu World like this ? 


Tsunade low diffs.



DaVizWiz said:


> Not necessarily true, he nearly defeated Asura & Deva with only 3-toma and virtually no knowledge, albeit with some help.


Kakashi died right after that cuz of 1 doton 4 raiton 2 ms jutsu (which is shows its not a kage calliber endurance or stamina) . 

And in the same arc Konohamaru also took a Pain Path by his own. But we never considered him as a Jonin-level cuz of this.

And Kakashi had some general knowledge about them he just didnt know ST and BT and he covered that cuz of help (help of a 2 jonin level char and  bunch off other fodders)

And same Kakashi clearly dominated by Kakuzu who is much weaker than both Deva & Asura... 


He is close to kage caliber at the time but as @FlamingRain said; he wasnt a kage level dude in general.


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## Architect (Aug 6, 2018)

Kakashi handily.
He tagged Rinnegan and Sharingan wielding V2 jin 2 times.

And blocked his counterattack.
He was like three times faster than Zabuza, cut his arm and pierced him.

Wounded, fought Obito evenly in CQC:


This is what a Sharingan user does to Adult Sakura:

What does Kakashi need here to win in the CQC:
-Destroy Tsunade's heart or
-Hit her neck and decapitate her or
-Smash her head or
-Cut her arms
with Raikiri or Raikiri Kunai.
Which is not particularly hard given that Sharingan woud give Kakashi openings for a counterattacks and that Tsunades attacks are also quite linear.

The speed. Kakashi had 4.5 + Sharingan and Tsunade had 3.5 in DB 3. Kakashi even further developed his speed to the point his base physical speed was equal to that of base Gai who has 5 for that.


He was also called fast by Obito.


Going further, it would be a little bold, but not improbable to say Kakashi's shunshin speed was equal to that of 6G8 Gai's physical or physical+shunshin speed, depending on what you think his G8 speed is more based on and how good his shunshin is.


The difference would allow Kakashi not to let Tsunade approach him when he doesn't want it and approach her himself any time he wishes.

Kakashi's known ninjutsu would allow him control the battle, preventing Tsunade from getting to close to him with Water Wall and either:
-pushing her back;
-electrifying her by adding lightning;
-or moving Tsunade the way Mei moved Madara, i.e. by continuing Water Wall with Water Dragon



or Giant Water Vortex


Though Tsunade would ruin the area quite fast, preventing Kakashi from going underground for ambushes and clone feints, Earth Walls would be useful for blocking Katsuyu, her LOS, Tsuande's LOS, thus making himself an opening for creating a Lightning clone, which Tsunade will consider to be a regular clone, thus hit him without much thinking.

And more importantly, "one of Kakashi's pride"


Would TOTALLY wreck Tsunade.
She just won't be able to keep up with someone who can pull that thing at any time.
DB page says that even at a distance fast attack is likely, let alone at short distance and it's extremely hard to dodge when it's seen for the first time.
Furthermore, imagine a Naruto - Gakido (Preta Path) styled simultaneous dodge but between Kakashi and Tsunade and followed by Lightning Hound 


Almost forgot Sharingan's illusion abilities.
Kakashi was making an optical illusions even at the beginning of the Part I, when he hadn't mastered Sharingan and was rusty and even prior to that as Gai had to develop a special fighting style to counter that.
He put two ANBU member into sleep and fought Obito in a genjutsu battle.
And unless I have forgotten something, regular ninja without the sharingan doesn't have passive genjutsu resistance unless they train their eyes to see through that. Tsunade would probably be dispelling his illusions with Kai, if Orochimaru's attempt of releasing himself wasn't a pointless try, but before she or katsuyu realizes she is in the genjutsu, Kakashi will turn that time to his advantage and makes his move.

And this all is just without the other over 900 jutsu Kakashi has up his sleeve.

I would say this is low diff for Kakashi if not for an autonomous slug turret "Katsuyu 0005". Which is more of a distraction rather than a real threat and could be dealt by:
1) Soaking in water and paralyzing
2) Genjutsu
3) Earth Walls
4) Fire Style
5) This all could also be done by a clone.

So, this is gonna be a mid diff for Kakashi.

Reactions: Like 5


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## King1 (Aug 6, 2018)

Kakashi with no sharingan is not beating tsunadae, he does not have precog, although we can argue that tsuna is not as fast as kakashi but she is by no means slow, she either tanks or dodge all of his attacks, eventually she would prevail

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Aug 6, 2018)

Kakashi is not beating tsunade. Even with ms.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 6, 2018)

Architect said:


> He tagged Rinnegan and Sharingan wielding V2 jin 2 times.


Brainwashed jincs. And he had 7G Gai for covering his back. 

And even Kisame or Heavily Sick Orochimaru was able to do similar things who demolished by Rusted, Wounded Tsunade.



Architect said:


> He was at least two times faster than Zabuza, cut his arm and pierced him.


Edo Zabuza who is weaker and brainwashed version. 



Architect said:


> Wounded, fought Obito evenly in CQC:


When Obito was getting emotional and knowingly push Kakashi to the point that he is gonna attack at the heart of his cuz of get riding off Madara's binding seal. 

Obito overperformed KCM2 Naruto in cqc  And now gonna dominates by Kakashi ? Wet Dreams ı assume ?! 



Architect said:


> The speed. Kakashi had 4.5 + Sharingan and Tsunade had 3.5 in DB 3. Kakashi even further developed his speed to the point his base physical speed was equal to that of base Gai who has 5 for that.


People not move at their highest speed all time .. Kakashi not equal to Gai. 

And Tsunade also surprassed Mei's hand seal speed (who is a ninjutsu master kage) and over-perform A4 in terms of trigger process in battle.




Architect said:


> He was also called fast by Obito.


Even the panel you shared says "quick" and he was mentioning about his strategy and intelligence. Obito also praise Hebi Sasuke cuz of its speed and better version of that Sasuke humiliated (almost) by each kage in 5 kage Which is some of 'em inferior to Tsunade)



Architect said:


> Going further, it would be a little bold, but not improbable to say Kakashi's shunshin speed was equal to that of 6G8 Gai's physical or physical+shunshin speed, depending on what you think his G8 speed is more based on and how good his shunshin is.


Gai come there first and then when obito starts to intangible then Kakashi get into it. And we dont know when or where these start to 
run so you cant measure if they're equal or not ?



Architect said:


> Tsunade from getting to close to him with Water Wall


Couple of V3 Susano clones and susano swords and yasaka magatama wasnt able to stop her. now Water Wall gonna do ha ?   
What about Katsuyu genius ?




Architect said:


> or moving Tsunade the way Mei moved Madara, i.e. by continuing Water Wall with Water Dragon


Mei moved Madara cuz Mei wasnt Madara's only or main opponent she was supportive she had time and Mei's elemental game is >>>> Kakashi's in terms of area control and size.


And putting Zabuza's jutsus that aint has any damage feat just good for drown someone at average jonin level   Good luck with that.




Architect said:


> Earth Walls would be useful for blocking Katsuyu


Earth Walls ? When Kakashi had multiple giant earth wall feat.



Architect said:


> Would TOTALLY wreck Tsunade.


What makes it better than point blank Yasaka Magatama throw or Head blown CST Or Multiple V3 Susano Sword Stabs ??   




Architect said:


> Almost forgot Sharingan's illusion abilities.


Tsunade is the woman who mocked Kakashi cuz he lost to Tsukiyomi ? And now suddenly Kakashi gonna genjutsu her with 3T ?   



Architect said:


> regular ninja without the sharingan doesn't have passive genjutsu resistance unless they train their eyes to see through that


Shadow Clone method  says nope
Jiraiya's method says nope
Tsunade's medical reputation and will power says nope
Katsuyu says nope



Architect said:


> And this all is just without the other over 900 jutsu Kakashi has up his sleeve.


Like he can use all of'em ?   He died cuz of 4-5 raiton jutsu + 1 doton jutsu + 2 Kamui for small objects.. And in the war he replenished by Kyuubi twice and Obito once.

He might have knowledge of hundreds of jutsu but he has caliber for only a dozen.


Architect said:


> I would say this is low diff for Kakashi


And bias comes up to the surface   

The dude never beaten a kage level opponent by himsellf now low diffing Tsunade w/o MS   


Architect said:


> 1) Soaking in water and paralyzing


There is no evidence for that in manga.. 


Architect said:


> Genjutsu


Katsuyu has hive mind and contract with Tsunade. And Kakashi aint have a feat like that. And he wouldnt have a time for that when Tsunade around.


Architect said:


> Earth Walls


Again !! Earth Walls ??   


Architect said:


> Fire Style


Which is only legit for Anime. Plus. Even human size katsuyu tanked CST and cat size katsuyu tanked Kn6 naruto's corrosive skin and poisonous chakra.. Nice try kiddo  Fire   



Architect said:


> This all could also be done by a clone.


Never happened  


Architect said:


> So, this is gonna be a mid diff for Kakashi.


This is a one of the most ambitious crazy fan fics ı've ever read in my life.. Thanks for the ride.. 

But come back to the reality.


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## Architect (Aug 6, 2018)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Brainwashed jincs. And he had 7G Gai for covering his back.
> 
> And even Kisame or Heavily Sick Orochimaru was able to do similar things who demolished by Rusted, Wounded Tsunade.
> 
> ...


so much BS I don't see a point in trying to enlighten you.  
You're a lost one.


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## Santoryu (Aug 6, 2018)

remember to vote 

 bunshin feint followed by a raikiri decapitation gg

tsunade's blows are evaded thanks to the Sharingan and kakashi's superior speed. She alters the battle to Kakashi's advantage with her chaotic attacks which allows him to find holes and cracks to set up a clone adroitly. Sharingan genjutsu for summons. Her limbs can be servered. Her best chance of winning is playing possum and catching arguably the sharpest mind in the series off guard. More than likely she takes out a clone and dies.

it's a gg!!!!!!


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## Architect (Aug 6, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> She alters the battle to Kakashi's advantage with her chaotic attacks which allows him to find holes and cracks to set up a clone adroitly.


how could I not think about this?


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## Shazam (Aug 6, 2018)

DMS Kakashi God stomps

WA MS Kakashi can go either way depending on knowledge and distance as well as location - Closest they come

3T Kakashi loses mid diff  ( unless you are one of those people who wank 3T genjutsu like for Sasuke or Itachi, then Kakashi might have a chance)


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 6, 2018)

Sakura still dies.


A Raiton bunshin still paralyses her no matter how much Tsunade/Sakura fans try to imply that she is magically immune to elemental effects of Jutsu while ignoring the mechanics of said jutsu.

Given that Kakashi feinted the likes of Deva Path and Itachi, Sakura has no realistic chance of not getting feinted, and once she does and is paralyzed, a Raikiri to the brain or decapitation should do her in.

You can't regenerate from instant death.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kisame (Aug 6, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Sakura still dies.





> Sakura has no realistic chance of not getting feinted


Sakura?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 6, 2018)

Shark said:


> Sakura?



Sakura=Tsunade


*Spoiler*: __ 



I got caught up with the Gai vs Sakura  while replying here lel


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## hbcaptain (Aug 6, 2018)

3T Kakashi is never beating a sannin, no matter how deep you look at it. Such a trivial fact doesn't even need argumentation unless you're criminaly downplaying Tsunade.

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (Aug 6, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> bunshin feint followed by a raikiri decapitation gg



You gave them manga knowledge so no.

Also, pics of Tsunade not regrowing her head.



> tsunade's blows are evaded thanks to the Sharingan and kakashi's superior speed. She alters the battle to Kakashi's advantage with her chaotic attacks which allows him to find holes and cracks to set up a clone adroitly.



How advantageous can it really be if Kakashi's going to be forced to back up whenever she makes contact with something? Assuming he doesnt get tripped up again?

If she decides to summon how is Kakashi going to sneak past potentially thousands of pairs of eyes to get to her before she notices?



> Sharingan genjutsu for summons.



That's going to accomplish literally nothing when the summoner is still present, especially in Tsunade and Katsuyu's case where they can feel each other's Chakra.



> Her limbs can be servered.



If Kakashi hits them, and they're covered by regeneration anyway.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 6, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Sakura still dies.
> 
> 
> A Raiton bunshin still paralyses her no matter how much Tsunade/Sakura fans try to imply that she is magically immune to elemental effects of Jutsu while ignoring the mechanics of said jutsu.
> ...


Do you lack reading comprehension? Byakugo is the ultimate regeneration technique that virtually keeps sakura/tsunade unphased by injury...
Sakura didn't get paralysed with a friggin tsb in her spine but its kakashi's raiton that will do her in..
Kakashi fans mang


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## Kisame (Aug 6, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Also, pics of Tsunade not regrowing her head.


Why do you think she can regrow her head?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 6, 2018)

Speedyamell said:


> Do you lack reading comprehension? Byakugo is the ultimate regeneration technique that virtually keeps sakura/tsunade unphased by injury...
> Sakura didn't get paralysed with a friggin tsb in her spine but its kakashi's raiton that will do her in..
> Kakashi fans mang



The only one here lacking reading comprenhension is you, did you not read what is underlined in red or you don't know that getting your head looped off is far beyond a serious wound and something she hasn't demonstrated or implied to be able to heal?

Lol that old myth I debunked long ago.

Tsunade was never hit on the spine as shown by the panels in which we can see her backside, nor would that injury have paralysed her at the height of that spinal injury.

Very simple really if you do some reading on spinal injuries.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 6, 2018)

Shark said:


> Why do you think she can regrow her head?



Sozo Saisei was said to work by stimulating all proteins that make up the body. Given that, there is no part of the body that Sozo Saisei cannot reconstruct as long as the user is alive because our cells actually retain the genetic information they were endowed with during their embryonic stage.

So, the question is whether Tsunade's body would shut down immediately or not, but during the war Edo Tensei were shown to be able to "die" as they would in life until their regeneration kicks in when dealt a sufficient injury (at least Haku, Zabuza, and Madara if there aren't others I'm forgetting) and yet Tsunade's reanimated grand uncle kept performing Jutsu when half of his head and torso were still missing. This tells me that the trait of Senju/Uzumakis taking forever and a half to actually succumb to their injuries applies to brain injuries as well, so I think Tsunade could come back.

I'd like to think Sakura could too but I don't know what that could be attributed to. Oh well. Naruto and a Sasuke surpassed their teachers without being able to do everything their teachers could do so Sakura could as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Aug 6, 2018)

Once a person's head is disconnected from the body and spine (not Hidan) it's instant death. The body is no longer getting commands from the brain and nerve system is off. Body shuts down along with everything not forgien inside.


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## SakuraLover16 (Aug 6, 2018)

Katsuyu doesn't have eyes....... so no genjutsu gg


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## FlamingRain (Aug 6, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> The only one here lacking reading comprenhension is you, did you not read what is underlined in red or you don't know that getting your head looped off is far beyond a serious wound and something she hasn't demonstrated or implied to be able to heal?



That's probably a mistranslation. Turrin's translation doesn't say that, it doesn't make sense as we've already seen the technique handle wounds that are serious, and the reason for its development was the _obliteration_ of an organ which Tsunade couldn't heal with her regular techniques.

Also Orochimaru pierced Tsunade's spine with the Kusanagi in part 1 and even if you don't think the Susano'o clones did it the original Madara pierced it with his surprise Susano'o blade in part 2. Tsunade kept her ability to move both times. Don't ask me how she can do that but she can.



Shazam said:


> Once a person's head is disconnected from the body and spine (not Hidan) it's instant death. The body is no longer getting commands from the brain and nerve system is off. Body shuts down along with everything not forgien inside.



There can be, and are, special cases because fiction.


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## Kisame (Aug 6, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Sozo Saisei was said to work by stimulating all proteins that make up the body.


I think the idea Kishimoto is trying to get across is that whike there are injuries far too grave for normal medical ninjutsu to heal, that doesn't apply for Sozo Saisei. Basically saying "it works on the cellular level" is another way of saying "it can heal even the deepest and gravest damage".


> Given that, there is no part of the body that Sozo Saisei cannot reconstruct as long as the user is alive because our cells actually retain the genetic information they were endowed with during their embryonic stage.


Regenerating a head might be pushing it, it falls in line by definition but it doesn't necessitate it. 


> but during the war Edo Tensei were shown to be able to "die" as they would in life until their regeneration kicks in when dealt a sufficient injury (at least Haku, Zabuza, and Madara if there aren't others I'm forgetting) and yet Tsunade's reanimated grand uncle kept performing Jutsu when half of his head and torso were still missing. This tells me that the trait of Senju/Uzumakis taking forever and a half to actually succumb to their injuries applies to brain injuries as well, so I think Tsunade could come back.


Yes, Edo Tensei comes with literal immortality, as in "the soul doesn't leave the body no matter the damage", however the Edos can be incapacitated if the injury is severe enough (that's how they were sealed).

If you notice, The Edo kages for example were not a problem because of the Edo Tensei regeneration or immortality because the sealing process was available, it was their actual abilities that was the issue (Muu's splitting, Gengetsu's genjutsu, and AAA's durability vs FRS).

When it came to Tobirama I think it is simply Kishimoto deciding to factor in the "Edo immortality" again as they were in a more serious battle.

_Alternatively_ and most importantly, Kishimoto highlighted that the Edo regen wasn't working rather than bothering to praise Tobirama's Senju vitality that allowed him to fight woke m while bisected - but I know we don't see eye to eye when it comes to that line of interpreting things.

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (Aug 6, 2018)

Shark said:


> I think the idea Kishimoto is trying to get across is that whike there are injuries far too grave for normal medical ninjutsu to heal, that doesn't apply for Sozo Saisei. Basically saying "it works on the cellular level" is another way of saying "it can heal even the deepest and gravest damage".
> 
> Regenerating a head might be pushing it, it falls in line by definition but it doesn't necessitate it.



I guess it's just that targeting her head or neck seems like too simple a solution given how the Jutsu is portrayed. Hyperbole is hyperbole, but I think it goes too far if that's all it took to get around her regeneration. If she can claim she can't die then she has to be _really_ hard to kill. She should at least be able to regenerate from any conventional injury (i.e.- one that can be inflicted by standard weapons or moves).



> When it came to Tobirama I think it is simply Kishimoto deciding to factor in the "Edo immortality" again as they were in a more serious battle.
> 
> _Alternatively_ and most importantly, Kishimoto highlighted that the Edo regen wasn't working rather than bothering to praise Tobirama's Senju vitality that allowed him to fight woke m while bisected - but I know we don't see eye to eye when it comes to that line of interpreting things.



In that case could we also say that Tsunade would likely survive because during the Madara fight Kishimoto highlighted that Tsunade's stamina had a limit rather than having someone express concern about her being decapitated (especially when Madara aimed for not-even-a-medic Mei's head)? She was only treated as if she was vulnerable when Byakugō was used up.


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## Kisame (Aug 6, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> I guess it's just that targeting her head or neck seems like too simple a solution given how the Jutsu is portrayed.


I fully agree, I believe Kishimoto would have the characters deliver her fatal injuries and then she heals rather than them attempting to behead her.


> In that case could we also say that Tsunade would likely survive because during the Madara fight Kishimoto highlighted that Tsunade's stamina had a limit rather than having someone express concern about her being decapitated (especially when Madara aimed for not-even-a-medic Mei's head)? She was only treated as if she was vulnerable when Byakugō was used up.


When did he aim for Mei's head?

I would say that "beheading" wouldn't cross Kishimoto's mind unless the character was too powerful for Tsunade, and even then they'd likely just onliterate her completely rather than cut her head off.

Basically we agree on the practicality of her healing when it comes to beheading (it's not gonna happen or be brought up or thought of etc) and disagree on the theoretical part (survivng beheading).

Kakashi for example, would never beat Sozo Saisei by beheading her.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 6, 2018)

Shark said:


> When did he aim for Mei's head?



When we first cut back to the Kage fighting the 25 Susano'o a clone punches Mei and she flies headfirst towards another one that points its blade right at her. The only reason she wasn't split in half is because Gaara used his sand to stop her.

We've actually seen Kakashi himself aim for heads, too. Now that I think about it.



> I would say that "beheading" wouldn't cross Kishimoto's mind unless the character was too powerful for Tsunade, and even then they'd likely just onliterate her completely rather than cut her head off.
> 
> Basically we agree on the practicality of her healing when it comes to beheading (it's not gonna happen or be brought up or thought of etc) and disagree on the theoretical part (survivng beheading).
> 
> Kakashi for example, would never beat Sozo Saisei by beheading her.



That still seems weird, though. Not exactly the same but it reminds me of how people interpret the Minato's first fight with Ay. Minato is more powerful than Kage Summit Sasuke but does that mean that his kunai is actually more dangerous for someone using Raiton Chakra Mode than Sasuke's Chidori katana? We could say no and that's why Ay's still alive, but if we do then it seems to me that if something doesn't work then...it just doesn't work.


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## Kisame (Aug 6, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> When we first cut back to the Kage fighting the 25 Susano'o a clone punches Mei and she flies headfirst towards another one that points its blade right at her. The only reason she wasn't split in half is because Gaara used his sand to stop her.


I wouldn’t say that was specifically portrayed as a "beheading" rather than "killing".


> That still seems weird, though. Not exactly the same but it reminds me of how people interpret the Minato's first fight with Ay. Minato is more powerful than Kage Summit Sasuke but does that mean that his kunai is actually more dangerous for someone using Raiton Chakra Mode than Sasuke's Chidori katana? We could say no and that's why Ay's still alive, but if we do then it seems to me that if something doesn't work then...it just doesn't work.


_If_ I am understanding you correctly it was already established that the kunai is not stronger than Chidori while it wasn't established that Tsunade can regrow her head.

But you might need to rephrase what you mean here, sorry...


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## FlamingRain (Aug 6, 2018)

Shark said:


> I wouldn’t say that was specifically portrayed as a "beheading" rather than "killing".



Killing _by_ beheading. 



> _If_ I am understanding you correctly it was already established that the kunai is not stronger than Chidori while it wasn't established that Tsunade can regrow her head.
> 
> But you might need to rephrase what you mean here, sorry...



I just mean "would that change somehow because X is stronger than Y anyway?"

I think that if Kishimoto would have it that someone could never accomplish something while somebody else could it's because the possible answers that they share are probably things that it _can't_ be done through rather than something that the former simply _wouldn't choose_ while the latter _would_. It's because the stronger character has some better answer that they can succeed, but they'd use it because they _have to_ not because they simply have that _choice_ to.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Aug 7, 2018)

Pretty sure Tsunade would rape kakashi no MS and she would probably win even if he had MS

She's just to danm tanky and strong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 7, 2018)

People just try to make Kakashi win forcefuly and cuz of that they're acting like Kakashi gonna attempt so many jutsus w/o stamina suffering and landing problem to char who is also famous with her evasive skills..

Everything should go just fine every tactic, attempt and jutsu gonna go on schedule and Tsunade just watch Kakashi and 3T Kakashi mid diffs.

Some geniuses are geniunely believe that. Then why for the god's sake The Big Bad Kakashi who has the most screen time of battles amoung all characters except Naruto and Sasuke. He get into so many different fight in his differnet ages and we read in manga.

Why neever ever able to surprass one opponent w/o support ?

Zabuza -> w/o support lose to him at first
Orochimaru -> Crappin to his pants
Jiraiya -> He said you cant protect this child and take Naruto under his custody and Kakashi was agree with that so Base Sannin > Him.
Itachi -> Gai saved his ass
Kabuto -> easily avoided Kakashi
Itachi vol.2 -> If Naruto wasnt there he was even close to loose %30 chakra ITachi replica
Deidara -> Team Gai arrived
Kn3 Naruto -> Jiraiya's seal saved his ass
Kakuzu -> Saved twice by other people
Deva  & Asura -> Died (even w/ help , actually that one is fair cuz his opponent was too strong and this is my favorite Kakashi fight so ı cant count this as a bad acheivement) (Plus; he was shocked cuz of Jiraiya's acheivement against Pain so again a Sannin > Him)

Near Blind Tired Sasuke -> Didnt able to do much of a thing on his own.

Jincs -> He gave a great fight but in the end his ass saved by Naruto but this is also a fair loss cuz his opponents was too strong again
OBito -> Obito let him to do cuz he needed to get rid off Madara's seal.


If Kakashi can land every hit attempt perfectly and can use all of his 1000 jutsu w/o stamina problem. And he is so fast to blitz a kage level opponent , I mean in the end if he is this mighty why his track record is so bad.

Jincs, Pain, Obito, Orochimaru and Itachi these are fair losses no one would blame him. Its obvious but .. That guy saved by his students on his firs mission with'em against Zabuza.

This guy saved by his subordinates against Kakuzu

This guy wasnt able to stop Kabuto he let him escape twice.

But now suddenly low to mid diffing a Sannin/Hokage/Best Medic/One of the Best Fighters in the verse w/o his strogest asset !


Great fan fiction material probably ı would wonder to read but terrible argument for a canon battle assumption.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 7, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> The only one here lacking reading comprenhension is you, did you not read what is underlined in red or you don't know that getting your head looped off is far beyond a serious wound and something she hasn't demonstrated or implied to be able to heal?
> 
> Lol that old myth I debunked long ago.
> 
> ...


Yet you keep on displaying your lack of reading comprehension
On that same page you posted,it states that byakugo will always regen them twice,and the little part you underlined and completely misinterpreted,was talking about how the injuries healed *immiedately* except when its a serious wound,which simply means serious wounds take more time to heal,which everyone friggin knew.
But you took that and twisted it in sad attempt to delude you & your fellow wanjers to believing kakashi has a shot in hell at killing a sannin lol.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 7, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Once a person's head is disconnected from the body and spine (not Hidan) it's instant death. The body is no longer getting commands from the brain and nerve system is off. Body shuts down along with everything not forgien inside.


Normal biology doesn't apply to fiction.
Any fictional char reknown for regen don't die to things that would kill others instantly.
And same thing with sozo saisei,which people seem to ignore the fact that it keeps them fully functional & unphased by injury.
So even if tsunade was beheaded & katsuyu wasn't there to piece her back together,assuming she had sufficient chakra,and looking at the basis of the technique,she would actually grow a new body.
Not that kakashi is beheading her anyway..
He's more likely to die from chakra exhaustion than that.


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## Buuhan (Aug 7, 2018)

Speedyamell said:


> He's more likely to die from chakra exhaustion than that.


 
*IIRC* all of these happened before he needed to rest. When you take into consideration how much chakra MS jutsu must take out of a non Uchiha, Kakashi by no means is gonna falter from, "chakra exhaustion," especially when he isn't using Kamui here. This is war arc as per OP.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 7, 2018)

Having decent feats during the war arc doesn't get rid of the fact that Tsunade has _far_ more Chakra than Kakashi does.

@Speedyamell is saying he'd lose a stamina contest with Tsunade, and he would whether he's using the MS or not.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 7, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> *IIRC* all of these happened before he needed to rest. When you take into consideration how much chakra MS jutsu must take out of a non Uchiha, Kakashi by no means is gonna falter from, "chakra exhaustion," especially when he isn't using Kamui here. This is war arc as per OP.


All those things didn't immiedately happen after each other but nice try..
Thats basically his entire jutsu usage the entire war lmao.
Still doesn't negate the fact that he's more likely to die from loss of chakra than he's likely to behead tsunade.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NamesClassified (Aug 7, 2018)

Like people have said above, Kakashi has avenues to take in this fight. If Kakashi can set of a Mud Wall or use Tsunade's chaotic punches as a smokescreen, his clone feints can give way to him decapitating Tsunade akin to what he

The problem that arises for Kakashi is just how far Tsunade's regeneration can go. Since the body technically retain function for a bit even after decapitation, maybe Stength of 100 seals passive ability to can revive her. In this case Kakashi can't output enough damage to incapacitate the Sanin.

If Tsunade's healing is great enough to render decapitation null in void then she obviously wins. If not then Kakashi's chances of winning are higher.




JiraiyaFlash said:


> *Brainwashed jincs*.


Why do you have to belittle Kakakshi's impressive showings to supplement your argument? Can Tsunade's showings not stand on their on merit?

Besides your attempt at downplay doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Those "brainwashed Jins" not only benefit from *ocular enhancements*, but when working in unison were capable of tagging KCM Naruto.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> And he had 7G Gai for covering his back.


Their were at least *5 *or *6 *of them. Even with backup he was still outnumbered.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Brainwashed jincs. And he had 7G Gai for covering his back.
> And even Kisame or *Heavily Sick Orochimaru* was able to do similar things who demolished by Rusted, Wounded Tsunade.


The Orochimaru that engaged Tsunade not only couldn't use his arms in any capacity, but was sweating bullets presumably from the immense pain he had post Reaper Death Seal. It was implied that he was 

Whatever state Orochimaru was in during his fight with Naruto, it was gold compared to the pathetic state he was in during the Sanin Deadlock.

And Kisame's feats don't scale to Tsunade.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Why *neever ever able to surprass one opponent w/o support* ?
> 
> Zabuza -> w/o support lose to him at first


Since you acknowledge Kakashi's victory over Zabuza in their second fight that means he did defeat *one opponent w/o support.*


JiraiyaFlash said:


> Orochimaru -> Crappin to his pants


Part one hype shouldn't supersede logic. Did the fact that Kakashi was shitting bricks with Orochimaru *but had no reservations about facing the stronger Itachi *not tip you off that part 1 portrayal arguments are either too inconsistent or are straight bullshit?

At best you can say that Kakashi was a victim of misplaced hype.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> Kabuto -> easily avoided Kakashi


Using* two dead bodies *to facilitate his escape. Besides Kabuto pressed Tsunade in part 1.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> Deidara -> Team Gai arrived


Ok this nitpick is weird. What would Tsunade have been capable of doing in the same scenario? Her close range fighting style mean she'll likely never tag Deidara while airborne and summoning Katsyuu in that narrow area Naruto and Kakashi were in would require Katsyuu to be summoned at a size not large enough to be of any service to Tsunade.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> Kn3 Naruto -> Jiraiya's seal saved his ass


Kakashi never engaged Kn3 Naruto, so your point is moot here.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> Kakuzu -> Saved twice by other people


Saved *once*, since by his own admission he could have ended the ninja with Kamui.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> (Plus; he was shocked cuz of Jiraiya's acheivement against Pain so again a Sannin > Him)


Doesn't aid Jiraiya's hype since he died doing the very thing Kakashi deemed insane.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> Near Blind Tired Sasuke -> Didnt able to do much of a thing on his own.


Come on. We all know why, he didn't want his obsession .


Overall despite my nitpicks with your post, I actually agree that Kakashi's track record of winning is abysmal, but that has nothing to do with this hypothetical battle.

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## Buuhan (Aug 7, 2018)

Speedyamell said:


> All those things didn't immiedately happen after each other but nice try..
> Thats basically his entire jutsu usage the entire war lmao.
> Still doesn't negate the fact that he's more likely to die from loss of chakra than he's likely to behead tsunade.


Your logic actually helps my case. He used those jutsu over the course of constant fighting *prior(IIRC)* to having his chakra resuscitated by Naruto. So on top of non stop fighting he managed to pull all this off. His opposition which included the 7 ninja swordsmen makes it even more impressive. The proof is literally right there and even if you twist it in your direction with your logic it still just serves to make his feats more impressive.


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## Buuhan (Aug 7, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Having decent feats during the war arc doesn't get rid of the fact that Tsunade has _far_ more Chakra than Kakashi does.
> 
> @Speedyamell is saying he'd lose a stamina contest with Tsunade, and he would whether he's using the MS or not.


The implication is pushed to the extent that his chakra hinders him so much it would cause his demise as opposed to Tsunade(the argument i responded to). Considering his feats in the war arc it doesn't add up. When you also consider that Kakashi actually has jutsu capable of cutting through Tsunade it doesn't really help that case either. This really isn't a game of who will last longer, but who will get the first deadly hit in.


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## Anza (Aug 7, 2018)

Kakashi wins extreme diff


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## Architect (Aug 7, 2018)

Kakashi said he was worried about the remaining chakra:

But all he used since coming to Naruto's rescue was a single Raikiri.
He was definetely referring to the battle against Zabuza, rampage against other swordsmen.

If he used quite many techniques since he and Gai arrived there while being worried about his chakra volume, imagine what chakra amount would fresh WA Kakashi have.

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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 7, 2018)

Kakashi without MS is still a strong foe for Tsunade to handle. He can mask her field of view with smokescreens and utilize his Raiton variants to deal a paralyzing blow on the unexpecting Tsunade. Raikiri has been hyped to cut down everything and has thus far lived to it's hype and his Sharingan precognition can see through her attacks. He has fought V2 Jins and Obito, who are capable fighters with overwhelming feats of attack speed and power (keeping up with KCM Naruto, tagging BM Naruto, respectively).


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## Speedyamell (Aug 7, 2018)

Lo! And behold! 
We're in a time were kakashi beats even byakugo tsunade without mangekyo
The world really is coming to an end.

Kakashi has no shot against a sannin,anyone telling you otherwise is a liar & insane.
Anyone telling you kakashi beats them without ms moreso.


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## Tri (Aug 7, 2018)

Tsunade eventually gets her hands on Kakashi and ends him with a punch and takes the win.


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## Architect (Aug 7, 2018)

Sage light said:


> thus far lived to it's hype


couldn't breach V2 Jin's cloak.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 7, 2018)

Architect said:


> couldn't breach V2 Jin's cloak.


Scan?


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## Architect (Aug 7, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Scan?


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 7, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> Overall despite my nitpicks with your post, I actually agree that Kakashi's track record of winning is abysmal, but that has nothing to do with this hypothetical battle.


It has something to do with when people starts to assume everything just gonna fine for Kakashi in a battle against a kage leveler char like Tsunade. And ı just simply asked if he was that good from the start even w/o MS why those happened ?

So yeah his track record and his own claims portrays that he is not above Tsunade.

And we're gonna go with feats. Kakashi has impressive feats for his game. But tsunade have hers.

Only problem is Tsunade can endure couple of her mistakes or acheivements of Kakashi during fight. But kakashi cant afford a single hit from Tsunade.

So its obvious for me. And ım not downplayed Kakashi ı just pulled him his regular state like Mangaka portrayed. He is not godly after all (such as Tsunade)

And people could try to understand the term of "outlier" its very common for comic book genre and super hero comparisons. But in manga people overlooks.

And your nitpicks doesnt come up straight at so many points cuz ım not judging Kakashi like ;"Why these happened" .. He isnt an underacheiver. Dont get me wrong but ım try to say the portrayal, reputation and feats that casted by Mangaka for kakashi firmly disagree this "3T Kakashi low to mid diffs Tsunade cuz all of his attempts gonna happen %100 cuz of his brilliance" This is a wet dream.

And thats why ı nitpicked his each failure but ım not claimin that all these happened cuz he is sucks ! BUt you answer me like ı said that.

All ı said is.. No this never happened in manga. And never even implied in manga. And its not gonna happen magicaly cuz you love him so much.

I can understand that MS Kakashi high diffing Tsunade ı can live with that its more or less reliable claim .

But 3T Kakashi humiliates a Hokage ? ? a Senju ?? a Sannin ?? Who is the best at something on all world ? Best Kunoichi&Medic ?

I mean , again wet dreams vs reality and ı portrayed that in my post.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 7, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> That's probably a mistranslation. Turrin's translation doesn't say that, it doesn't make sense as we've already seen the technique handle wounds that are serious, and the reason for its development was the _obliteration_ of an organ which Tsunade couldn't heal with her regular techniques.
> 
> Also Orochimaru pierced Tsunade's spine with the Kusanagi in part 1 and even if you don't think the Susano'o clones did it the original Madara pierced it with his surprise Susano'o blade in part 2. Tsunade kept her ability to move both times. Don't ask me how she can do that but she can.
> 
> ...



This is a translation from the original japanese text.

I don't see any problems with it, it simply says she is not going to immediately heal from wounds that are serious and all I am saying is that brain damage or decapitation are *beyond* serious.

You guys imply that she is going to shrug off either of those 2 types of damage and immediately recover like nothing happened while her opponent, Kakashi in this instance, sits there and does nothing.

How do you determine how she heals from brain damage for example? Does her subconscious reside in her body cells while her brain heals? If she is decapitated, does she grow and new head or a new body and is she going to be walking around with a baby body ala Deadpool for a couple of days until it matures? Does it take a huge amount of chakra to heal from these types of injuries?

Spinal injury doesn't lead to total paralysis in all cases, it mostly depends on the height at which it happened on the spine, and even if we pretend that she got through it, what's the proof that says the same mechanics that allowed her to move will apply against Raiton which creates paralysis by overriding the body's electrical signals and not by damaging them?

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## FlamingRain (Aug 7, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> This is a translation from the original japanese text.



So is Turrin's.



> I don't see any problems with it, it simply says she is not going to immediately heal from wounds that are serious and all I am saying is that brain damage or decapitation are *beyond* serious.



Well you should because it doesn't make sense given the rest of the entry and on panel feats. If the body is pushed to the point where it'd normally die then that is by all means a serious wound.

Who said brain damage or decapitation are the limit? Not even that contradictory entry did. For all you know it could be defining "serious" with something like having all but your limbs obliterated or even complete obliteration.



> How do you determine how she heals from brain damage for example? Does her subconscious reside in her body cells while her brain heals? If she is decapitated, does she grow and new head or a new body and is she going to be walking around with a baby body ala Deadpool for a couple of days until it matures? Does it take a huge amount of chakra to heal from these types of injuries?



In the Narutoverse the subconscious is clearly connected to Chakra and said connection doesn't even seem to be primarily rooted in the brain if you consider the images of the Keirakukei we were shown. That's why Suigetsu can get his face smashed off and reform, why Konan can turn her entire body into paper and still function, why Orochimaru can tell what's going on outside of his curse marks, why Sasori can survive as a heart canister and why Kakuzu having five hearts meant that he needed to be killed five times.

"But they're special-" so is Tsunade using Sozo Saisei.



> Spinal injury doesn't lead to total paralysis in all cases, it mostly depends on the height at which it happened on the spine, and even if we pretend that she got through it



It does as a rule. Such injuries paralyze a person from the point of damage down so the feats still illustrate what Tsunade's supporters are saying. The only one pretending is you.



> what's the proof that says the same mechanics that allowed her to move will apply against Raiton which creates paralysis by overriding the body's electrical signals and not by damaging them?



What's the proof that they wouldn't?

I'm being serious. Resistance to electricity varies from person to person in real life so what characters do you think the author would pick to be resistant to it if any? Normals or the ones portrayed as some of the hardiest in the verse? Are Haku and Yamato > Tsunade?

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## Alita (Aug 7, 2018)

Even without MS WA Kakashi still has a shot for reasons Architect mentioned imo.

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## Buuhan (Aug 7, 2018)

Alita54 said:


> Even without MS WA Kakashi still has a shot for reasons Architect mentioned imo.


Its like people forget his entire arsenal sometimes in light of Kamui.


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## Alita (Aug 7, 2018)

Speedyamell said:


> Lo! And behold!
> We're in a time were kakashi beats even byakugo tsunade without mangekyo
> The world really is coming to an end.
> 
> ...



Only if you ignore his feats from pein arc and beyond. Too many of you guys act like Kakashi didn't get substantially stronger after part 1. It's ridiculous.

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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 7, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> So is Turrin's.



So where is this translation that greatly differs from the panel I posted?




> Well you should because it doesn't make sense given the rest of the entry and on panel feats. If the body is pushed to the point where it'd normally die then that is by all means a serious wound.
> 
> Who said brain damage or decapitation are the limit? Not even that contradictory entry did. For all you know it could be defining "serious" with something like having all but your limbs obliterated or even complete obliteration.



It says that she will not immediately heal these injuries like she would lesser ones. Makes perfect sense to me.

The technique doesn't revive someone who is dead, it prevents someone from dying by healing their injuries, but brain destruction is instant death, so I am not compelled to believe she is simply going to recover from such a thing when she can't even mold chakra while dead. 



> In the Narutoverse the subconscious is clearly connected to Chakra and said connection doesn't even seem to be primarily rooted in the brain if you consider the images of the Keirakukei we were shown. That's why Suigetsu can get his face smashed off and reform, why Konan can turn her entire body into paper and still function, why Orochimaru can tell what's going on outside of his curse marks, why Sasori can survive as a heart canister and why Kakuzu having five hearts meant that he needed to be killed five times.
> 
> "But they're special-" so is Tsunade using Sozo Saisei.



You have a great point in regards to the subconscious being connected to Chakra but it doesn't mean it magically applies to Tsunade just because it does to other Shinobi unless it has been explicitly stated or implied, she has a healing technique, not a total body altering technique.



> It does as a rule. Such injuries paralyze a person from the point of damage down so the feats still illustrate what Tsunade's supporters are saying. The only one pretending is you.



What feats does she have that she was able to move the limbs affected by the injury without recurring to healing which would be useless against Raiton since there is nothing to heal?

Nothing from the panels I have seen have convinced me so if you post something specific that would be great.



> What's the proof that they wouldn't?
> 
> I'm being serious. Resistance to electricity varies from person to person in real life so what characters do you think the author would pick to be resistant to it if any? Normals or the ones portrayed as some of the hardiest in the verse? Are Haku and Yamato > Tsunade?



So you don't know the mechanics behind her supposed overriding of paralysis but they magically apply to brushing aside the side effects of Raiton?

lol


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## FlamingRain (Aug 7, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> So where is this translation that greatly differs from the panel I posted?



The databook IV collection thread.



> Byakogou Sousou Saisei
> 
> For several years using the highest most precise chakra control, a fixed amount is stored in the Byakugou seal. The chakra is usually put to use to regenerate the body through the Ninjutsu technique "Sousou Saisei", the combination results in the ultimate regeneration Jutsu.
> 
> ...



Nowhere does it say "unless she suffered a serious wound".



> The technique doesn't revive someone who is dead, it prevents someone from dying by healing their injuries, but brain destruction is instant death, so I am not compelled to believe she is simply going to recover from such a thing when she can't even mold chakra while dead.



Byakugō sustains Jutsu without the user's conscious input input so Tsunade doesn't need to mold Chakra. All they do is switch it on and off, they don't hold it. If you don't believe me recall how Sakura said Byakugō is used for the Jutsu that keeps Tsunade looking young and then how Tsunade maintains that appearance even when she's asleep. That's part of why "look no hands" is a thing.

I've made the point several times (between this thread and others) that instant death for normals =/= instant death for Asura's descendants (like Tsunade). Kushina lasted a long time after Kurama was ripped out of her and that was supposed to be instant death. Tobirama got half of his head blown off and kept fighting when he should have been "dead" on the spot. Yes we can use transitive logic to apply this to Tsunade because she's similar enough to Tobirama's brother that Madara recognized their relation without anybody saying anything and she has her own feat of surviving being ripped in half which would kill a person instantly, too.

Evidence that Tsunade would die the instant her brain was destroyed?



> You have a great point in regards to the subconscious being connected to Chakra but it doesn't mean it magically applies to Tsunade just because it does to other Shinobi.



It applies to the Narutoverse period and that's the entire reason why abilities like those are even possible in the first place. There was nothing special about any of them beforehand, so yes the Chakra-soul connection thingy _does_ apply to Tsunade.



> What feats does she have that she was able to move the limbs affected by the injury without recurring to healing which would be useless against Raiton since there is nothing to heal?



She got up off the ground and hit Orochimaru despite the Kusanagi impaling her right between her shoulders. When she was stabbed by Madara we see that her legs are repositioned prior to her swing even before her spine is regenerated. She shouldn't have been able to do either of those things either of those times.



> So you don't know the mechanics behind her supposed overriding of paralysis but they magically apply to brushing aside the side effects of Raiton?



You don't know them either but you assume that the Raiton will magically work when both Haku and Yamato managed to move? You do know that's _not_ a neutral position you're maintaining yourself, right? If you don't realize that you need to look in a mirror before you start laughing.

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## Jad (Aug 7, 2018)

Juubidara thought he'd have died from Night Gai and Gai only aimed at his upper body.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 7, 2018)

Jad said:


> Juubidara thought he'd have died from Night Gai and Gai only aimed at his upper body.



This has nothing to do with anything. All it means is that if Gai had erased _more_ of Madara's body than he did in that one instant he'd have killed him, and he erased a lot of his body there.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 8, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> The databook IV collection thread.
> 
> 
> Nowhere does it say "unless she suffered a serious wound".



Because it's not translating the same databook panel I posted. 



> Byakugō sustains Jutsu without the user's conscious input input so Tsunade doesn't need to mold Chakra. All they do is switch it on and off, they don't hold it. If you don't believe me recall how Sakura said Byakugō is used for the Jutsu that keeps Tsunade looking young and then how Tsunade maintains that appearance even when she's asleep. That's part of why "look no hands" is a thing.



Yes, I recall that.



> I've made the point several times (between this thread and others) that instant death for normals =/= instant death for Asura's descendants (like Tsunade). Kushina lasted a long time after Kurama was ripped out of her and that was supposed to be instant death. Tobirama got half of his head blown off and kept fighting when he should have been "dead" on the spot. Yes we can use transitive logic to apply this to Tsunade because she's similar enough to Tobirama's brother that Madara recognized their relation without anybody saying anything and she has her own feat of surviving being ripped in half which would kill a person instantly, too.



None of those things kill people instantly, and Tobirama was an edo no? People do not die instantly after getting cut in half either, that's just in the movies.

Brain destruction or complete body destruction is the only way that happens.



> Evidence that Tsunade would die the instant her brain was destroyed?



The fact that Narutoverses' human limits still apply to her such as being in a comma for simply using up too much chakra vs Pain.

She is not completely immune to everything.



> It applies to the Narutoverse period and that's the entire reason why abilities like those are even possible in the first place. There was nothing special about any of them beforehand, so yes the Chakra-soul connection thingy _does_ apply to Tsunade.



After looking over some facts regardings chakra connection and reviewing your argument, I can see why you would say that and I have chanced my opinion, it is *feasible* that she could heal from brain damage by using consciousness in the chakra previously stored.

I say feasible/arguable because Ninja with significantly superior healing abilities like JJ Madara still believed they could die by physical damage vs Gai's attack for example so even superior beings have limits.

This however doesn't mean that her chakra can't be depleted by further damage while she is down recovering from larger injuries like brain damage, which anyone with common sense would proceed to do after seeing her healing capabilities.

However, I am still not buying the whole, she is immune to Paralysis.



> She got up off the ground and hit Orochimaru despite the Kusanagi impaling her right between her shoulders. When she was stabbed by Madara we see that her legs are repositioned prior to her swing even before her spine is regenerated. She shouldn't have been able to do either of those things either of those times.



How do we know she got hit in the spine exactly though? Hiruzen also got impaled between the shoulders by Kusanagi and he seemed to do just fine so I guess he also has Tsunades healing prowess.

She was dandling in the air while being impaled and showed around by a sword. I would be surprised if her legs did stay put, but since she did not anything meaningful with her legs like kick the sword then it changes nothing.



> You don't know them either but you assume that the Raiton will magically work when both Haku and Yamato managed to move? You do know that's _not_ a neutral position you're maintaining yourself, right? If you don't realize that you need to look in a mirror before you start laughing.



The Raiton will magically work because that's what it's purpose is. Tsunade's specialty is healing, not Raiton immunity.

Haku and Yamato did not get hit with a raiton clone holding 50% of Kakashi's chakra, which should be enough chakra to create well over a dozen Raikiris.

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## Santoryu (Aug 8, 2018)

So far the legendary and leader of the great Kaguya battle leads the poll. And rightly so. 

Dat Swagashi

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## Santoryu (Aug 8, 2018)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Why neever ever able to surprass one opponent w/o support ?
> 
> Zabuza -> w/o support lose to him at first
> Orochimaru -> Crappin to his pants
> ...



If you want to play that game....

How many one vs one on panel fights has Tsunade won?

With support she got destroyed by Hanzo

We seen what happened against Kabuto

Had Jiraiya's support against an anaemic Orochimaru

We know what happened against Madara

Didn't last many panels against Pain did she?

Was confident Kakashi could take over during the Pain arc

etc etc

If you ignore context it's easy to make a character look less impressive

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## Shazam (Aug 8, 2018)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> People just try to make Kakashi win forcefuly and cuz of that they're acting like Kakashi gonna attempt so many jutsus w/o stamina suffering and landing problem to char who is also famous with her evasive skills..
> 
> Everything should go just fine every tactic, attempt and jutsu gonna go on schedule and Tsunade just watch Kakashi and 3T Kakashi mid diffs.
> 
> ...



There is a lot of falsehoods here.


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## sabre320 (Aug 8, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> You gave them manga knowledge so no.
> 
> Also, pics of Tsunade not regrowing her head.
> 
> ...



The amount of overhyping for tsunade by you is scary......sm madara who had hashiramas healing which in base was directly compared to tsunades couldnt regenerate limbs and sm madara had to transplant a zetsu arm....yet tsunade will regen multiple limbs...seems legit....

Then we go to the most ludicrous statement from you.....juubidara who had sm hashis healing and the freaking juubis regen on top though he would die if night gai had hit his head....yet tsunade is going to regrow hers are you serious...

Reactions: Like 1


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## sabre320 (Aug 8, 2018)

Architect said:


>


Raiden managed to do it though.


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## Architect (Aug 8, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Raiden managed to do it though.


limbs? Yes.


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## hbcaptain (Aug 8, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> yet tsunade will regen multiple limbs...seems legit....


Sozo Sazei can regenerate  by definition, meaning Tsunade's regeneration is more advanced than Madara's.


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## Sequester (Aug 8, 2018)

Shazam said:


> DMS Kakashi God stomps
> 
> WA MS Kakashi can go either way depending on knowledge and distance as well as location - Closest they come
> 
> 3T Kakashi loses mid diff  ( unless you are one of those people who wank 3T genjutsu like for Sasuke or Itachi, then Kakashi might have a chance)



What about Kagekashi?


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 8, 2018)

Shazam said:


> There is a lot of falsehoods here


You can tag with "disagree" you dont need to quote all message for posting one line that you didnt eloborate at all ? 

----------------------

And about healing

Sozo Saizei healed Rusty Tsunade's pierced heart and demolished lungs. All of these organs had connections with neuron system at high sakes. She creates her neuron relation.

Also thanks to Sozo Saizei she make most of the village survived from CST. 

And thanks to Sozo Saizei she is healed the after effects of a wormhole ride !!!

And Byakugo is literaly x100 of this. And she healed her snapped spine. Again full with neuronal web and centric cells.

I dont claim that she is better than Juudara. But if you're gonna ask me like this ;

Which is closer to other ?

Night Gai and 3T Kakashi's best attack 
Byakugo's Healind and Juubidara's healing

clearly 2nd one looks much more relatable and close. 

So dont try to dig this healing part. Tsunade aint Juubidara and Kakashi aint 8G Gai.. its a dumb field to promote.


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## sabre320 (Aug 8, 2018)

Architect said:


> limbs? Yes.


The v2 cloak covers the wole body equally, the cloak isnt any weaker on the limbs aka bm using its tails to parry ps swordstrikes and block juubi lasers.


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## sabre320 (Aug 8, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Sozo Sazei can regenerate  by definition, meaning Tsunade's regeneration is more advanced than Madara's.


It never displayed the ability....it was made very clear that madara saw tsunades regen as equivilant to hashiramas and even in sm the regen could not repair limbs.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 8, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> If you want to play that game....
> 
> How many one vs one on panel fights has Tsunade won?


You losed from the start cuz ı never made an argument for Tsunade like Architecht did for Kakashi which is fulled with best luck wishes.

I made my argument on feats, portrayal, reputation and differencies between styles..

So ı never been in "that game" you call. So asking me " Did Tsunade won a 1 vs 1 fight" is silly. Why silly ?

1st Tsunade's screen time and battle number much less compare to Kakashi

2nd Tsunade was the most dominant member of Edo Madara vs Gokage fight

3rd Tsunade has clear better portrayal and reputation than Kakashi (plus databook scores)

4th Tsunade has better official completed mission numbers than Kakashi in both A and S level missions.





Santoryu said:


> With support she got destroyed by Hanzo
> 
> We seen what happened against Kabuto
> 
> ...


Hanzo was the strongest of that Era and Tsunade was even younger than P1 Kakashi. And P1 Kakashi was bussy with tangling Zabuza . Prime Hanzo >>>>>>>> Zabuza

Kabuto was losing to her even w/ plasma pills thats why cutted his wrists and used her phobia against her..

Yeah Jiraiya was poisoned and Tsunade was rusty and ill. And ıf you wanna know what Rusty mean for Kishimoto you can check Hanzo Vs Mifune. And at the final Tsunade demolished Orochimaru and Manda by herself .

Edo-Madara was too strong for anyone in here and even due to that fact Tsunade was the one who forced Madara to use a wood clone first. Thanks to remind that .

Yeah she didnt last many panels against Pain cuz she was busy with saving thousands of people via her chakra. And even then she just went under coma . On the other hand Kakashi died cuz of 1x doton 4xraiton 2xsmall kamui. And he never took CST's damage like Tsunade.


So ı wasnt in a game but looks like you're also not good at it 



So, first try to understand the context of my posts. Then come to me and talking about "GAME" ..


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## Architect (Aug 8, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> The v2 cloak covers the wole body equally, the cloak isnt any weaker on the limbs aka bm using its tails to parry ps swordstrikes and block juubi lasers.


the cloak on their tails and limbs maybe the same as on their body, but what Kakashi cut was the extended limbs.
Kakashi's raiden also had the power of two Raikiri's but it was highly stretched and expanded meaning it's concentration lowered.


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## hbcaptain (Aug 8, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> It never displayed the ability....it was made very clear that madara saw tsunades regen as equivilant to hashiramas and even in sm the regen could not repair limbs.


Because Tsunade never lost a limb whist Byakugou Sozo Sazei is being activated.
Madara isn't Tsunade and they don't use the same technique. The latter only compared her to Hashirama in the sens that she could use regeneration without performing handseals no more no less.

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## Mad Scientist (Aug 8, 2018)

The debate is done. The data is in. Kakashi STOMPS Tsunade mid diff.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 8, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Because it's not translating the same databook panel I posted.



Uh, yes it is. There’s only one Byakugō Sōzō Saisei entry in the entire databook. He’s even talked about how it shows a picture of Tsunade hitting Madara just like the page you posted.



> None of those things kill people instantly,



They’d be dead in seconds, which could be considered an instant death. If you're not considering that instant death then decapitation and brain injury don't count either. "Instant death" is not literally instant.



> and Tobirama was an edo no?



Edo Tensei have been shown to “die” as they would in life until their regeneration kicks in so that doesn’t explain it.



> The fact that Narutoverses' human limits still apply to her such as being in a comma for simply using up too much chakra vs Pain.
> 
> She is not completely immune to everything.



Nobody has been arguing that Tsunade has no limits, simply that hers are well beyond those of a normal ninja. It’s not that she wouldn’t die it’s that she would take longer to die, and given the example with Tobirama there is nothing special about the brain as far as that rule is concerned. Tsunade went into a coma doing something that _killed_ Kakashi. That’s not evidence that she’d die instantly if someone destroyed her brain just because normal people do.



> After looking over some facts regardings chakra connection and reviewing your argument, I can see why you would say that and I have chanced my opinion, it is *feasible* that she could heal from brain damage by using consciousness in the chakra previously stored.
> 
> I say feasible/arguable because Ninja with significantly superior healing abilities like JJ Madara still believed they could die by physical damage vs Gai's attack for example so even superior beings have limits.
> 
> This however doesn't mean that her chakra can't be depleted by further damage while she is down recovering from larger injuries like brain damage, which anyone with common sense would proceed to do after seeing her healing capabilities.



Better hope that she didn’t catch the person who injured her brain when they were doing it, and that Katsuyu isn’t out to force them back if she didn’t.



> How do we know she got hit in the spine exactly though? Hiruzen also got impaled between the shoulders by Kusanagi and he seemed to do just fine so I guess he also has Tsunades healing prowess.
> 
> She was dandling in the air while being impaled and showed around by a sword. I would be surprised if her legs did stay put, but since she did not anything meaningful with her legs like kick the sword then it changes nothing.



It’s right in the middle in both instances. Unless you want to argue Tsunade has serious subluxation issues that's where her spine would be. Hiruzen didn’t get impaled between his shoulders. It was much lower down his back, but the sword was at an angle so the tip extended up to shoulder level. Actually past shoulder level…

The Susano'o blade was stationary. When she’s first impaled and lifted up her legs are hanging straight down, when she breaks the sword she’s pulled one leg back, when she swings the sword she’s switched which leg was forward and which was back. She just moved.



> The Raiton will magically work because that's what it's purpose is. Tsunade's specialty is healing, not Raiton immunity.
> 
> Haku and Yamato did not get hit with a raiton clone holding 50% of Kakashi's chakra, which should be enough chakra to create well over a dozen Raikiris.



That doesn’t mean anything. The purpose of Tsunade’s strength is to pulverize people but that doesn’t mean she’d pulverize anyone she hit.

The clone isn’t packed with a dozen Raikiris. That wouldn’t have paralyzed Asura it would have just destroyed him. It takes half of Kakashi’s Chakra because it’s a Kage Bunshin with Raiton mixed into it.



sabre320 said:


> The amount of overhyping for tsunade by you is scary.



Madara compared Hashirama's ability to Tsunade's based on it not requiring hand-signs. Madara didn't state they were the same otherwise so you can stop acting like he did. Hashirama being far superior to Tsunade overall doesn't mean that everything about him is just a better version of everything about Tsunade and Tsunade's technique has actually been stated to be able to regrow limbs, which _is_ possible given the actual description of the technique.

Madara also didn't say he'd die if Gai had only hit him in the head. He said he almost died, but Gai wasn't _that_ far away from wiping out his head _and_ the majority of his upper body at once so yeah. Just stop.


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## sabre320 (Aug 8, 2018)

Architect said:


> the cloak on their tails and limbs maybe the same as on their body, but what Kakashi cut was the extended limbs.
> Kakashi's raiden also had the power of two Raikiri's but it was highly stretched and expanded meaning it's concentration lowered.


The tails are extended limbs for the cloaks the bm avatar turned its tails into multiple giant extended limbs to choke the bijuu...they are covered by the exact same chakra cloak...it isnt diluted...raiden had the power of 2 raikiri channeled into a perfectly fine razor wire....unconcentrated it was not.


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## Architect (Aug 8, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> The tails are extended limbs for the cloaks the bm avatar turned its tails into multiple giant extended limbs to choke the bijuu...they are covered by the exact same chakra cloak...it isnt diluted...raiden had the power of 2 raikiri channeled into a perfectly fine razor wire....unconcentrated it was not.


choking the bijuu doesn't make Naruto's extended tails as concentrated as they normally were.
The volume of two fully concentrated Raikiris normally wouldn't cover the volume of Raiden. Both Raikiris were stretched to create a ~10 meters wide chain.


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## sabre320 (Aug 8, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Because Tsunade never lost a limb whist Byakugou Sozo Sazei is being activated.
> Madara isn't Tsunade and they don't use the same technique. The latter only compared her to Hashirama in the sens that she could use regeneration without performing handseals no more no less.



This was specifically said about hashiramas healing prowess in the 4th databook.
[Healing Ability]

_''Further worthy of admiration is his recovery ability. Commanding high-level ninja healing arts, he can heal wounds even without making hand gestures. His body itself brimming with vitality, those with Hashirama’s cells have heightened healing ability. *To this day, there is no ninja existing who surpasses this power.*''

Madara compared tsunades whole technique to hashiramas and only stated one feature of the technique was also just like hashiramas aka rule 4. He compared the prerequisites for a helaing technique to match hashiramas and no seals required was the fourth prerequisite.
https://public.sn.files.1drv.com/y4pTr4OPls3esk_VJ6tPHgKVD7CSZBr5VY1aC1VVdci_moRdsDcHxPabEecdM7-OU7Bv5-SG75E2ppVoDvhywuyhWO7wYEEqbru65LXjrJA8yC7vJV-V1dqDSPLj8ZNF82ZgbqAU-p7F9puWLMPR_2Ye7MQ6t_5u_PxpQge0F4UB_CFCo4hV8364tPYwSoGlDY8/Chapter 578, page 6 copy.png?psid=1&rdrts=208361519_

Yeah tsunade isnt above hashiramas healing.


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## sabre320 (Aug 8, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Uh, yes it is. There’s only one Byakugō Sōzō Saisei entry in the entire databook. He’s even talked about how it shows a picture of Tsunade hitting Madara just like the page you posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was specifically said about hashiramas healing prowess in the 4th databook.
[Healing Ability]

_''Further worthy of admiration is his recovery ability. Commanding high-level ninja healing arts, he can heal wounds even without making hand gestures. His body itself brimming with vitality, those with Hashirama’s cells have heightened healing ability. *To this day, there is no ninja existing who surpasses this power.*''

Madara compared tsunades whole technique to hashiramas and only stated one feature of the technique was also just like hashiramas aka rule 4. He compared the prerequisites for a helaing technique to match hashiramas and no seals required was the fourth prerequisite.
https://public.sn.files.1drv.com/y4pTr4OPls3esk_VJ6tPHgKVD7CSZBr5VY1aC1VVdci_moRdsDcHxPabEecdM7-OU7Bv5-SG75E2ppVoDvhywuyhWO7wYEEqbru65LXjrJA8yC7vJV-V1dqDSPLj8ZNF82ZgbqAU-p7F9puWLMPR_2Ye7MQ6t_5u_PxpQge0F4UB_CFCo4hV8364tPYwSoGlDY8/Chapter 578, page 6 copy.png?psid=1&rdrts=208361519_

Yeah tsunade isnt above hashiramas healing.

Also juubidara who had juubi healing ontop of sm hashis healing said he nearly died from missing a decent sized chunk from his torso ,....he specifically made a point to note if it was a higher near his head he would have died....yet you seriously think tsunade can survive losing her head ...


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## FlamingRain (Aug 8, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> This was specifically said about hashiramas healing prowess in the 4th databook.
> [Healing Ability]
> 
> _''Further worthy of admiration is his recovery ability. Commanding high-level ninja healing arts, he can heal wounds even without making hand gestures. His body itself brimming with vitality, those with Hashirama’s cells have heightened healing ability. *To this day, there is no ninja existing who surpasses this power.*''_



You're not considering the context. The middle two sentences are what tell you the bolded. Hashirama's cells can even imbue others with that healing ability because it's natural to him, it's not only about how well he heals himself. Tsunade can't hand out advanced regenerative abilities like that, she can only use regular medical Ninjutsu on others. It's still just as easy for me to say that as far as her own body is concerned Tsunade's regeneration is better because it's been called "the ultimate" multiple times _even as late as databook IV_, or would you argue that Orochimaru's ability to heal limbs was retconned because of that line too?



> _Madara compared tsunades whole technique to hashiramas and only stated one feature of the technique was also just like hashiramas aka rule 4. He compared the prerequisites for a helaing technique to match hashiramas and no seals required was the fourth prerequisite.
> https://public.sn.files.1drv.com/y4pTr4OPls3esk_VJ6tPHgKVD7CSZBr5VY1aC1VVdci_moRdsDcHxPabEecdM7-OU7Bv5-SG75E2ppVoDvhywuyhWO7wYEEqbru65LXjrJA8yC7vJV-V1dqDSPLj8ZNF82ZgbqAU-p7F9puWLMPR_2Ye7MQ6t_5u_PxpQge0F4UB_CFCo4hV8364tPYwSoGlDY8/Chapter 578, page 6 copy.png?psid=1&rdrts=208361519_
> 
> Yeah tsunade isnt above hashiramas healing.



There's only one feature to be noted and Madara had to see it before he realized it. He was never given an indication of what the upper limit was. Madara only knew that "it's just like Hashirama's ability" in the sense that _it doesn't require hand-signs_.



> Also juubidara who had juubi healing ontop of sm hashis healing said he nearly died from missing a decent sized chunk from his torso ,....he specifically made a point to note if it was a higher near his head he would have died....yet you seriously think tsunade can survive losing her head ...



He didn't say "if it was higher I would have died".

This _has_ to be on purpose.

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## sabre320 (Aug 8, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> You're not considering the context. The middle two sentences are what tell you the bolded. Hashirama's cells can even imbue others with that healing ability because it's natural to him, it's not only about how well he heals himself. Tsunade can't hand out advanced regenerative abilities like that, she can only use regular medical Ninjutsu on others. It's still just as easy for me to say that as far as her own body is concerned Tsunade's regeneration is better because it's been called "the ultimate" multiple times _even as late as databook IV_, or would you argue that Orochimaru's ability to heal limbs was retconned because of that line too?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Denial is a terrible thing...


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## FlamingRain (Aug 8, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Denial is a terrible thing...



I'll take that as a concession that you can't address what I said.


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## sabre320 (Aug 8, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> You'd know wouldn't you?


Yeah im not the one arguing against manga panels and the databook while putting tsunades healing on a pedestal where even juubi jins didnt stand.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 8, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Yeah im not the one arguing against manga panels and the databook while putting tsunades healing on a pedestal where even juubi jins didnt stand.



You are, though.

Manga- "I can regenerate _organs *and limbs*_."

Databooks- "The *ultimate* medical Jutsu", "The *pinnacle of* medical Ninjutsu", "The *ultimate* regeneration Jutsu."

You- "Nuh-uh!!!!"

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## Speedyamell (Aug 8, 2018)

Alita54 said:


> Only if you ignore his feats from pein arc and beyond. Too many of you guys act like Kakashi didn't get substantially stronger after part 1. It's ridiculous.


What are you saying. Who's the one ignoring feats??
Are you kidding me right now?? Kakashi literally doesn't have ms here and tsunade has all her techs which includes katsuyu that could likely solo kakashi.. 
The idea that kakashi beats her..with some even saying mid diff and other nonsense like that,is utterly nonsensical.
Tsunade could catch madara of guard but instead of people to be discussing how kakashi gets buried,they're deluding themselves into thinking kakashi doesn't die in the first few seconds of the fight.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 8, 2018)

Tsunade can survive fighting five Susanoo Wood Clones all trying to kill her from daytime until nighttime and can even overwhelm one of them in direct combat but she can't handle 3T Kakashi? The Battledome never ceases to amaze me.

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## NamesClassified (Aug 8, 2018)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> But 3T Kakashi humiliates a Hokage ? ? a Senju ?? a Sannin ?? Who is the best at something on all world ? Best Kunoichi&Medic


I wouldn't insinuate that Kakashi low or mid diff's her. I'm not even saying he wins the majority, but his MO of using clone's and diversionary tactics are valuable factors in this match and he's  of the . I simply believe the possibility of him catching Tsunade off guard is higher than you think.

Kakashi lacking full knowledge here means he might not go for decapitation, and if he does, depending on whether she's got Soso activated, there a possibility she could heal from it? So while Tsunade could perhaps win the majority do to these reasons, people are still underselling how well Kakashi could do here.


Speedyamell said:


> Tsunade *could catch madara of guard* but instead of people to be discussing how kakashi gets buried,they're deluding themselves into thinking kakashi doesn't die in the first few seconds of the fight.


When did the *bold *occur? The one time she tagged him, she was clone feinted if i'm not mistaken.


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## Buuhan (Aug 8, 2018)

So 3t kakashi has 

All his raikiri jutsu some of which are capable of easily bisecting tsunade considering they melted v2 jinks like butter.
Large enough chakra reserves to use his jutsu in succession without it being a major hinderance.
Ability to dodge deva in cqc as well as the ability to clone feint the rinnegan user
All this and him putting up a fight against tsunade is hurting people’s feelings this much lol? Yeah I think the arguments speak for the themselves. 3t WA Kakashi is now just part 1 kakashi without kamui.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 8, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> I simply believe the possibility of him catching Tsunade off guard is higher than you think.


That woman was able to hear heartbeat (Rusty Tsunade) from couple meters away from the object. 

Chunnin BoS Sakura praised by Chiyo (in her prime tangle with Hanzo in daily basis) and Sasori (best puppetteer and has highest DB score in akatsuki after Itachi)  cuz of her reading abilities and evasive skills. And we all know what Sakura looks like before meeting with Tsunade !

I think Tsunade's bold fighting style against Madara created an illusion. Like she is always gonna go berserk against her opponents. Madara was a big fish for GoKage and Tsunade was the vanguard of the team. 

Even Sakura never got into any traps of Sasori (with Chiyo or w/o Chiyo) and on the contrary even tricked Sasori's himself twice... Same Sakura's insufficient punch to the ground make Kakashi certainly sure about that he would die just one blow of it. And in that time Sakura not even close to Tsunade. 

Well ı dont know why Tsunade gonna fall into Kakashi's clone feint so easily when she know him pretty well. 

Plus even if Kakasih got him. That woman took Susano Sword stab and Yasaka Magatama in a row from point blank. And called it a day. 

What 3T Kakashi can offer in terms of damage output more than Edo-Madara's V3 Susano ? Not much ..

Of course Kakashi is a dude who is versatile enough, proficient enough and smart enough to keep himself against Tsunade. He even did against Itachi, Pain for a while. 

But in the end Tsunade can live with couple of mistakes or get over with Kakashi's couple of executions.

But Kakashi aint have any luxury to take a single blow from Tsunade and besides Tsunade once Katsuyu come into the conversation its almost instant over for Kakashi.






NamesClassified said:


> people are still underselling how well Kakashi could do here.


I can agree with that but this is also comes from a self-defense. Cuz some of the defenders of Kaksahi's win. Make it look like a easy peasy daily job for Kakashi. And thats why other side try to show "No its never been easy peasy for Kakashi in his career and its aint gonna be easy peasy against Tsunade either. Who can kill him with single blow)


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## Santoryu (Aug 10, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> So 3t kakashi has
> 
> All his raikiri jutsu some of which are capable of easily bisecting tsunade considering they melted v2 jinks like butter.
> Large enough chakra reserves to use his jutsu in succession without it being a major hinderance.
> ...



In addition to this, he matched Rinnegan Obito in both genjutsu and close quarters combat. Obito praised Kakashi's intellect, speed, and use of Raikiri.

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## Santoryu (Aug 10, 2018)

When facts are being rated "optimistic"  you know that the opposition's argument is tenous at best.


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## Hasan (Aug 10, 2018)

In case, anyone has doubts concerning Kakashi aiming for the head:



Hasan said:


> I missed one for each.
> 
> 01. During the Chuunin Exams, when he kills two of the Sound fodders by crushing their skulls.
> 02. Kamui against Deidara; he is trying to aim for the latter's head, when he misses twice.
> ...

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## Buuhan (Aug 10, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> In addition to this, he matched Rinnegan Obito in both genjutsu and close quarters combat. Obito praised Kakashi's intellect, speed, and use of Raikiri.


You’ll see the same old excuse though of Obito throwing the fight to discount the entire showing. Good one almost forgot about that.


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## Santoryu (Aug 10, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> You’ll see the same old excuse though of Obito throwing the fight to discount the entire showing. Good one almost forgot about that.



Yeah, I've seen that counter employed many times but it does not rebuttal those feats. Unless the same posters think it was Obito's plan to get his skull pierced early on in the fight? 

Kakashi's feats are just too good.

I do think Tsunade is comparable to Kakashi without MS, but he has the tools to beat her. People need to remember that an exhausted Kakashi and Gai kept Dojutsu amped Jjnjuriki at bay.

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## Tri (Aug 10, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> You’ll see the same old excuse though of Obito throwing the fight to discount the entire showing. Good one almost forgot about that.


But that’s not an excuse, that’s literally what happened in canon 

Do you consider Sasuke’s “feats” of outrunning Ama and outlasting Itachi legit despite us being explicitly told what Itachi’s actual motives were behind that fight?


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## Santoryu (Aug 10, 2018)

Tri said:


> But that’s not an excuse, that’s literally what happened in canon
> 
> Do you consider Sasuke’s “feats” of outrunning Ama and outlasting Itachi legit despite us being explicitly told what Itachi’s actual motives were behind that fight?



Different scenarios here.

We are explicitly told Itachi could have won at any point. Furthermore, many, many people use feats from Sasuke's fight with itachi.


Was it Obito's plan to have his head looped off too? Because Kakashi's held him at gunpoint and his opponent patently states that Kakashi could have killed him multiple times.

Yes, you could say that Kakashi may have won the fight because Obito had a plan, but to deny total value of the feats is illogical unless you can prove Obito wanted his head looped off too. There is also a clear parallel to the past.


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## Santoryu (Aug 10, 2018)

Kakashi also has one of if not the sharpest mind in the series.

He quickly knew that something was off when fighting Itachi (twice) and suspected that the latter held back on both occasions, albeit the second time Itachi was using a clone.

Kakashi made no such allusion during his battle with Obito, and as stated above, refer to the past parrallel. Kakashi always beat Obito in the past in cqc .Some things never change

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## Santoryu (Aug 10, 2018)

@Kai 

I hope you enjoy my posts


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## FlamingRain (Aug 10, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> Different scenarios here.
> 
> We are explicitly told Itachi could have won at any point.



What would Kakashi have done if Obito used a Jubi sized Katon on him? At any point?


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## Santoryu (Aug 10, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> What would Kakashi have done if Obito used a Jubi sized Katon on him? At any point?



I dunno.

But we know what would have happened if Kakashi caved Obito's skull in with Raikiri as Obito tells us.

I'm not saying Kakashi is stronger than Obito. He isn't (bar DMS).


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## FlamingRain (Aug 10, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> I dunno.



Well then it seems like the reason Kakashi won was because Obito refrained from going all out, does it not?



> But we know what would have happened if Kakashi caved Obito's skull in with Raikiri as Obito tells us.



When was this again? It wasn't during their fight in the Kamui dimension.


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## Buuhan (Aug 10, 2018)

Tri said:


> But that’s not an excuse, that’s literally what happened in canon
> 
> Do you consider Sasuke’s “feats” of outrunning Ama and outlasting Itachi legit despite us being explicitly told what Itachi’s actual motives were behind that fight?


Funny considering those are two completely different scenarios with completely different abilities.


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## Buuhan (Aug 10, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> What would Kakashi have done if Obito used a Jubi sized Katon on him? At any point?


He could’ve hidden underground and used a clone feint.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 10, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> He could’ve hidden underground and used a clone feint.



I thought of that, but Doton-digging might not even be possible in the Kamui dimension considering it's not earth and Kakashi didn't do that when faced with Obito's other Katon.

If it is possible that's Kakashi wearing himself out faster than he's wearing out Obito anyway, and it'd have been hard to do while Kakashi was aiming downwards at Obito.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tri (Aug 10, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> Different scenarios here.
> 
> We are explicitly told Itachi could have won at any point. Furthermore, many, many people use feats from Sasuke's fight with itachi.





Buuhan said:


> Funny considering those are two completely different scenarios with completely different abilities.


How are they different? Are you implying Obito could not have ended the fight at any moment if he really wanted to?


Santoryu said:


> Was it Obito's plan to have his head looped off too? Because Kakashi's held him at gunpoint and his opponent patently states that Kakashi could have killed him multiple times.


When was this? Because this didn’t happen during their fight in the Kamui dimension making it irrelevant to the idea that Kakashi matched Obito in close quarters during that fight.


Santoryu said:


> Yes, you could say that Kakashi may have won the fight because Obito had a plan, but to deny total value of the feats is illogical unless you can prove Obito wanted his head looped off too. There is also a clear parallel to the past.


Yes you could say that Kakashi may have won because Obito had a plan, because that's exactly what happened in canon anyone saying otherwise is denying the manga itself. The whole reason the parallel to the past is there because the narrative of the fight is Kakashi is attempting to kill the current Obito so he can "save" the Obito of the past.


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## Buuhan (Aug 10, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> I thought of that, but Doton-digging might not even be possible in the Kamui dimension considering it's not earth and Kakashi didn't do that when faced with Obito's other Katon.
> 
> If it is possible that's Kakashi wearing himself out faster than he's wearing out Obito anyway, and it'd have been hard to do while Kakashi was aiming downwards at Obito too.


Yeah, but that idea falls on wether or not the kamui dimension can be manipulated. There’s just enough reason to think it can as well as enough reason to think it can’t. Considering his feats in the war arc I doubt digging into the earth would take too much out of him.


Tri said:


> How are they different? Are you implying Obito could not have ended the fight at any moment if he really wanted to



With a strong rinnegan tech sure. Point still stands that he could’ve easily used genjutsu to have kakashi remove the seal which he never did. Why take the hard route if genjutsu would’ve worked? The only point I can see be argued is the taijutsu battle being feined by obito.


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## Architect (Aug 10, 2018)

1. Obito would have been dead if Kakashi hadn't spared him this time again.


Risking his life while looking forward to Kakashi faltering again? Unlikely.
Which means Kakashi was more agile and faster.
2. He wouldn't really need to have a further fight if he could take Kakashi under his control with genjutsu.
3. If something went wrong with becoming a JJ, this situation would have never occured

, if Obito could actually beat kakashi
here

and here


So, the parity between a beaten and injured Kakashi and Obito's genjutsu and taijutsu abilities is legit.


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## SakuraLover16 (Aug 10, 2018)

I can't believe people are still arguing for the sake of Kakashi nothing less of a kamui (don't orgasm guys I still don't believe in it when there is a one on one battle) is gonna do any lasting damage. Tsunade also happens to be one of the brightest minds in the series her score for intelligence and feats prove that.


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## Buuhan (Aug 10, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I can't believe people are still arguing for the sake of Kakashi nothing less of a kamui (don't orgasm guys I still don't believe in it when there is a one on one battle) is gonna do any lasting damage. Tsunade also happens to be one of the brightest minds in the series her score for intelligence and feats prove that.


So is kakashi. He’s a top tier tactician.


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## Serene Grace (Aug 10, 2018)

Not sure if this is a serious thread or not. Tsunade stomps the shit out of this guy, please give him Kamui to make this worth debating

Reactions: Like 2


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## sabre320 (Aug 11, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi also has one of if not the sharpest mind in the series.
> 
> He quickly knew that something was off when fighting Itachi (twice) and suspected that the latter held back on both occasions, albeit the second time Itachi was using a clone.
> 
> Kakashi made no such allusion during his battle with Obito, and as stated above, refer to the past parrallel. Kakashi always beat Obito in the past in cqc .Some things never change


I agree with the rest of your posts about kakashi, but obito legit landed a clean hit on bm naruto in cqc and formed mokuton around him. Honestly, kakashi would not hope to do that in cqc...not to mention obito having physical strength enough to bust a a giant boulder as a kid and durability enough to block the executioners blade with one arm....survived an oodama rasengan ...etc If he was completely seriious he would overwhelm kakashi.

Lets also not ignore the fact that obito had genjutsu prowess at such a level that at 15 year old he was able to complettely control a mizukage who was perfect jinchuriki with his sharingan genjutsu, a level so high it was confused to be koto.


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## Ayala (Aug 11, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> I agree with the rest of your posts about kakashi, but obito legit landed a clean hit on bm naruto in cqc and formed mokuton around him. Honestly, kakashi would not hope to do that in cqc...not to mention obito having physical strength enough to bust a a giant boulder as a kid and durability enough to block the executioners blade with one arm....survived an oodama rasengan ...etc If he was completely seriious he would overwhelm kakashi.



He warped mokuton around Naruto and then got a headbutt and was sent flying. Also if you wanna argue, Kakashi was the one that saved BM Naruto once, with his Raikiri, from Obito. 

Obito coughed blood on panel from Kakashi's single hit in his abdomen. 

Literally, all Obito had to do was charge at Kakashi's first Raikiri, but he didn't. He wanted to beat Kakashi too, along with removing the seal.


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## sabre320 (Aug 11, 2018)

Architect said:


> 1. Obito would have been dead if Kakashi hadn't spared him this time again.
> 
> 
> Risking his life while looking forward to Kakashi faltering again? Unlikely.
> ...


It was obvious obito was mindfucking kakashi....he wanted to cause as much mental anguish as possible considering he was pushing kakashis buttons continuously and in the end got what he wanted by getting hit in the heart.....do you honestly think war arc obito is so slow  that he would get straight up blitzed in cqc via just landing on the ground...comeoen.


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## sabre320 (Aug 11, 2018)

Limbo said:


> He warped mokuton around Naruto and then got a headbutt and was sent flying. Also if you wanna argue, Kakashi was the one that saved BM Naruto once, with his Raikiri, from Obito.
> 
> Obito coughed blood on panel from Kakashi's single hit in his abdomen.
> 
> Literally, all Obito had to do was charge at Kakashi's first Raikiri, but he didn't. He wanted to beat Kakashi too, along with removing the seal.


Because he wanted to mindfuck kakashi and cause as much mental anguish as possible...when did kakashi save bm naruto with a raikiri??? He landed a clean mokuton on bm naruto before he could form a defense, he was too strong and hit back...while obito couldnt phase due to mokuton....obito coughed blood because kakashi landed a cherry picked hit into his pressure point in his kidney ...the dude legit survived a oodama rasengan into his spine...and took a kcm rasengan to the damn shoulder no problem.

He wanted to get his heart fucked but wanted to cause kakashi as much mental trauma as possible ...do you honestly believe kakashis sharingan can defend against a genjutsu so potent that it can completely control a mizukage who is a perfect jinchuriki for years. It was so potent it was confused for koto...when kakashi thought he cant take tsukyomi.


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## Ayala (Aug 11, 2018)

If this was Pain arc 3T Kakashi, then i'd say Tsunade, as she was still seen as stronger, more fit as Hokage and the Sannin level was still way too respectable to Kakashi. 

But 3T War Arc Kakashi gives no fucks, he comes in and saves 2 perfect Jins and handles what was a threat to them better than they did. War Arc Kakashi fights alongside Minato without remaining behind, and black Zetsu notes his strength. War Arc 3T Kakashi was seen as someone who can temporarily handle Rinnegan Obito by Minato. 

Imo War Arc 3T Kakashi can put in a decent fight if not win.

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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 11, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Because he wanted to mindfuck kakashi and cause as much mental anguish as possible...w*hen did kakashi save bm naruto with a raikiri???* He landed a clean mokuton on bm naruto before he could form a defense, he was too strong and hit back...while obito couldnt phase due to mokuton....obito coughed blood because kakashi landed a cherry picked hit into his pressure point in his kidney ...the dude legit survived a oodama rasengan into his spine...and took a kcm rasengan to the damn shoulder no problem.
> 
> He wanted to get his heart fucked but wanted to cause kakashi as much mental trauma as possible ...do you honestly believe kakashis sharingan can defend against a genjutsu so potent that it can completely control a mizukage who is a perfect jinchuriki for years. It was so potent it was confused for koto...when kakashi thought he cant take tsukyomi.



Here



And Also him fighting against Obito's genjutsu despite his feats is not far fetched considering is the same pair of eyes. If Genjutsu was the easier route then Obito would have succeeded at his attempts and called it a day.

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## Zero890 (Aug 11, 2018)

Tsunade has already faced a guy with better Sharingan, Ninjutsu and Susano ... superior in everything ... and she fight against 5 of them... can say that the clones are not as strong as the original, however to fight against 5 Madara' Susano is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face Kakashi and she was the only one that knocked down one of them, Kakashi turns into red mist.

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## Architect (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> It was obvious obito was mindfucking kakashi....he wanted to cause as much mental anguish as possible considering he was pushing kakashis buttons continuously and in the end got what he wanted by getting hit in the heart.....do you honestly think war arc obito is so slow  that he would get straight up blitzed in cqc via just landing on the ground...comeoen.


do you really believe Obito risked his life hoping Kakashi woulnt kill him this time again？


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## Architect (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> kidney .


Obito's entire right half was replaced by Zetsu body, I don't thinks he has a kidney. IIRC, Obito doesn't eat or drink just like Zetsu. He wouldn't even need a kidney


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## sabre320 (Aug 12, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Here
> 
> 
> 
> And Also him fighting against Obito's genjutsu despite his feats is not far fetched considering is the same pair of eyes. If Genjutsu was the easier route then Obito would have succeeded at his attempts and called it a day.


Dude how in hell does kakashi save naruto there....they were both standing side by side and kakashi just tried a random raikiri that was phase trolled...


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## Architect (Aug 12, 2018)

lol
people still bringing that susano clones nonsense
it was a fight between 5 low mobile giant brutes who didn't care about being damaged at all against another, but way smaller and mobile brute who yet ended up being pierced in abdomen two times


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## sabre320 (Aug 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> do you really believe Obito risked his life hoping Kakashi woulnt kill him this time again？


Thats the thing he wasnt risking his life...he could react to kakashi no problem and he had read kakashis will and mindset to a godamn tee...he was smiling at his attempts to kill him....even at the end he positioned himself perfectly to get his heart pierced.


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## Architect (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Thats the thing he wasnt risking his life...he could react to kakashi no problem and he had read kakashis will and mindset to a godamn tee...he was smiling at his attempts to kill him....even at the end he positioned himself perfectly to get his heart pierced.


not really. The first time Kakashi was coming fast at him, jumping from the point where he landed, compared to the final clash, where Kakashi was just quickly walking towards him.


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## sabre320 (Aug 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> not really. The first time Kakashi was coming fast at him, jumping from the point where he landed, compared to the final clash, where Kakashi was just quickly walking towards him.


Ah yes it makes a ton of sense for war arc kakashi to blitz war arc obito who cant even recover from landing from a 5 foot fall.....


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Dude how in hell does kakashi save naruto there....they were both standing side by side and kakashi just tried a random raikiri that was phase trolled...



You should argue with Kishi my dude, not with me.

Kishi is the one that had Kakashi perform the raikiri when Obito was going to attack Naruto and then talk about his responsibility being protecting Naruto.


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## sabre320 (Aug 12, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> You should argue with Kishi my dude, not with me.
> 
> Kishi is the one that had Kakashi perform the raikiri when Obito was going to attack Naruto and then talk about his responsibility being protecting Naruto.


That was just a symobolic moment where naruto allowed kakashi to attempt a defensive manouver to allow kakashi his props...naruto wasnt even close to being pressured...not even a bit...obito wanst even close to him yet....you do know this is the same naruto who had a shunshin so potent it destroyed the wood dragon and moved so fast from the dragons location that it intercepted bakufu ranbu and protected bee from the v3 blade at the same time..


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## Zero890 (Aug 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> lol
> people still bringing that susano clones nonsense
> it was a fight between 5 low mobile giant brutes who didn't care about being damaged at all against another, but way smaller and mobile brute who yet ended up being pierced in abdomen two times



You mean these brutes who also use Genjutsu and have more speed and strength than Kakashi?


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## Architect (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Ah yes it makes a ton of sense for war arc kakashi to blitz war arc obito who cant even recover from landing from a 5 foot fall.....


that's what we have in manga.
Also
Obito didn't call him fast just for lulz.
Kakashi didn't outspeeded him when cut his shuriken just because.
And Kakashi's other speed feats weren't present just to be forgotten.
But really, that's rather not about the speed, but agility where Kakashi gained the majority of the advantage, landing successfuly.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> *That was just a symobolic moment where naruto allowed kakashi to attempt a defensive manouver to allow kakashi his props...naruto wasnt even close to being pressured...not even a bit*...obito wanst even close to him yet....you do know this is the same naruto who had a shunshin so potent it destroyed the wood dragon and moved so fast from the dragons location that it intercepted bakufu ranbu and protected bee from the v3 blade at the same time..





lol at Naruto's Shunshin feats meaning anything to his CQC abilities, or did you forget KCM Naruto keeping up with V2 A and then fanboying over and being made like a rookie by base Gai?

Naruto's Shunshin feats are impressive when the plot demands it for that single panel only and then he goes back to being overwhelmed by slower ninja in CQC.


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## sabre320 (Aug 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> that's what we have in manga.
> Also
> Obito didn't call him fast just for lulz.
> Kakashi didn't outspeeded him when cut his shuriken just because.
> ...


Naw dude...that is so out there its not even funny....he called him fast sure,...but he at itachi level in speed not freaking beyond bm naruto....the logical scenario that obito was sandbagging makes far more sense....if kakashi had that level of speed then he would be blitzing high kage level characters left and right in the war.


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## sabre320 (Aug 12, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> lol at Naruto's Shunshin feats meaning anything to his CQC abilities, or did you forget KCM Naruto keeping up with V2 A and then fanboying over and being made like a rookie by base Gai?
> 
> Naruto's Shunshin feats are impressive when the plot demands it for that single panel only and then he goes back to being overwhelmed by slower ninja in CQC.


Yeah clearly kakashi is now above bm naruto in cqc...and bm naruto needs to saved from obito when not even directly attacked....and doing a random raikiri at obito which is useless is considered saving him.....wow..i love kakashi and give him massive props but dude stop with the wank.


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## Architect (Aug 12, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> You mean these brutes who also use Genjutsu and have more speed and strength than Kakashi?


how are they faster than him?
They didn't only displayed no moving speed feats, mostly just staying around their targets, but they also haven't displayed the upper body mobility and speed.


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## Architect (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Naw dude...that is so out there its not even funny....he called him fast sure,...but he at itachi level in speed not freaking beyond bm naruto....the logical scenario that obito was sandbagging makes far more sense....if kakashi had that level of speed then he would be blitzing high kage level characters left and right in the war.


Naruto's speed mostly comes from his shunshin.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 12, 2018)

The Susano'o clones aren't nonsense.

There's no evidence that the clones were slow. Slow people have a hard time catching others off guard and it'd only be easier to notice something coming when it's several times larger than you are, yet Mei got sent flying, Gaara turning to Mei enabled his set of Susano'o to knock him to the ground and Raikage turning to Tsunade enabled his set of Susano'o to catch him in an illusion. Sasuke's legged Susano'o wasn't slow either. Given that Tsunade is a melee fighter their reflexes are more important anyway, so what really matters is that they were each equipped with even more advanced Sharingan and Rinnegan than the Jinchūriki Kakashi's supporters like to bring up having had those eyes, and that they each had a massive reach advantage over Tsunade to boot.

One'd think the fact that Tsunade was able to do anything at all when Madara wanted her dead first would remind people that she's amazing, but apparently managing to stab someone when they plan to get stabbed is more impressive...

Figures.

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## sabre320 (Aug 12, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> The Susano'o clones aren't nonsense.
> 
> There's no evidence that the clones were slow. Slow people have a hard time catching others off guard and it'd only be easier to notice something coming when it's several times larger than you are, yet Mei got sent flying, Gaara turning to Mei enabled his set of Susano'o to knock him to the ground and Raikage turning to Tsunade enabled his set of Susano'o to catch him in an illusion. Sasuke's legged Susano'o wasn't slow either. Given that Tsunade is a melee fighter their reflexes are more important anyway, so what really matters is that they were each equipped with even more advanced Sharingan and Rinnegan than the Jinchūriki Kakashi's supporters like to bring up having had those eyes, and that they each had a massive reach advantage over Tsunade to boot.
> 
> ...


THe 5 clones couldn't even overwhelm a non cqc fighter in mei via speed and reactions before she became chakra exhausted...she could put up blocks from straight sussano hits in cqc and even a clear punch from the v3 didnt put her down.

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## FlamingRain (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> THe 5 clones couldn't even overwhelm a non cqc fighter in mei via speed and reactions before she became chakra exhausted...she could put up blocks from straight sussano hits in cqc and even a clear punch from the v3 didnt put her down.



Are you serious? _Mei fights from a distance!_ The fact that Mei got hit _in spite of that_ means they _could_ overwhelm her.

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## Zero890 (Aug 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> how are they faster than him?
> They didn't only displayed no moving speed feats, mostly just staying around their targets, but they also haven't displayed the upper body mobility and speed.





*Spoiler*: __ 








Susano is undoubtedly fast probably surpassing Sasuke's speed (who according to Obito must use Susano to put pressure on Danzo), plus Madara could tagged A4 eventually, with it.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> *Yeah clearly kakashi is now above bm naruto in cqc...and bm naruto needs to saved from obito when not even directly attacked*....and doing a random raikiri at obito which is useless is considered saving him.....wow..i love kakashi and give him massive props but dude stop with the wank.



You are the one that's literally doing these claims, and whether you have a problem with them or not, that's not my issue.

All I did was post the panel you asked for, and repeated Kakashi's words during this instance.

If you don't like it that's cool but like I said, take it up with Kishi while ignoring the evidence that Naruto's CQC isn't as impressive as his once every blue moon shunshin feats.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Aug 12, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Danzo isn't known for his speed and he was immortal any
way, while Madara clones's Susanoo=/=Sasuke's, so that's hardly relevant here.


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## Zero890 (Aug 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> Danzo isn't known for his speed and he was immortal any
> way, while Madara clones's Susanoo=/=Sasuke's, so that's hardly relevant here.



However Danzo was not blitzed by Sasuke while he was blitzed with Susano.

And yes Madara's Susano>>>>>Sasuke's Susano.


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## Architect (Aug 12, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> However Danzo was not blitzed by Sasuke while he was blitzed with Susano.
> 
> And yes Madara's Susano>>>>>Sasuke's Susano.


Danzo got cut when he placed the paralyzing seal on Sasuke.
Both time, this and when they pierced each other, Danzo had an opportunity to harm Sasuke, so that's only natural he wouldn't want to lose it compared to other instances where he had no change of harming Sasuke until he brought Baki.
Madara's Susanoo is > Sasuke's, but that doesn't make his clone's Susanoo better too.


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## sabre320 (Aug 12, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Are you serious? _Mei fights from a distance!_ The fact that Mei got hit _in spite of that_ means they _could_ overwhelm her.


Mei fights at a distance but madara through his mokuton and katon had cornered them into positions where they were surrounded by 5 v3 clones each even in such a condition ei was not outdone in reactions speed, by the clones untiil her chakra gave out hell she herself tanked a v3 clones direct punch and didnt go down when the same punch from sasukes skeletal v3 comppletely crushed danzo into paste. The clones sussanos were weaker.

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## sabre320 (Aug 12, 2018)

Your 


Zero890 said:


> However Danzo was not blitzed by Sasuke while he was blitzed with Susano.
> 
> And yes Madara's Susano>>>>>Sasuke's Susano.


Your very own comparison proves this to be false. The original madaras sussano might be stronger at the same level but the mokuton clones were significantly weaker. Sasuke could blitz danzo a faster and more skilled fighter then mei who had sharingan precog with only his skeletal sussano while madaras sussano clones could not blitz mei  even in legged v3.....then later we see mei tanking a full punch from the same sussano and still got up while sasukes lower form of sussano completely turned danzo to paste.


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## Zero890 (Aug 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> Danzo got cut when he placed the paralyzing seal on Sasuke.
> Both time, this and when they pierced each other, Danzo had an opportunity to harm Sasuke, so that's only natural he wouldn't want to lose it compared to other instances where he had no change of harming Sasuke until he brought Baki.
> Madara's Susanoo is > Sasuke's, but that doesn't make his clone's Susanoo better too.



But five Susanos are>>Sasuke's Susano.


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## Zero890 (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Your
> 
> Your very own comparison proves this to be false. The original madaras sussano might be stronger at the same level but the mokuton clones were significantly weaker. Sasuke could blitz danzo a faster and more skilled fighter then mei who had sharingan precog with only his skeletal sussano while madaras sussano clones could not blitz mei  even in legged v3.....then later we see mei tanking a full punch from the same sussano and still got up while sasukes lower form of sussano completely turned danzo to paste.



You himself said it, Mei was tagged lol. 

None of them was able to knock down a single Susano while Tsunade did it ... with 4 others at her side, a feat much harder than facing Kakashi lol.


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## Santoryu (Aug 12, 2018)

I don't even know man

Naruto is cool one minute in cqc the next he's getting embarrassed against a _blind and topless _Madara


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## FlamingRain (Aug 12, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Mei fights at a distance but madara through his mokuton and katon had cornered them into positions where they were surrounded by 5 v3 clones



Madara didn't corner them through his Mokuton and Katon. The clones weren't created until after the Kages' sealing attempt, during which all the Kage were able to move around freely. Mei's all jumped in front of her, not around her, and she was on elevated ground compared to them. They hadn't even activated Susano'o yet. There's no reason to think they ever engaged in some close-quarters exchange.



> she herself tanked a v3 clones direct punch and didnt go down when the same punch from sasukes skeletal v3 comppletely crushed danzo into paste.



Danzō only got crushed when Susano'o was able to smash him _against the ground_. He didn't get crushed the other time he got hit- he just flew through the air like Mei did.


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## Buuhan (Aug 12, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> I don't even know man
> 
> Naruto is cool one minute in cqc the next he's getting embarrassed against a _blind and topless _Madara


Whilst in sage mode nonetheless


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## Architect (Aug 12, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> But five Susanos are>>Sasuke's Susano.


And 5 V1 Ays > 3rd Raikage
Even if you were right about that particular instance, you are still ignoring that Danzo didn't care being smashed.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 13, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Not sure if this is a serious thread or not. Tsunade stomps the shit out of this guy, please give him Kamui to make this worth debating


Wow. Your intellect dropped faster than the autumn leaves that got stranded in winter _and_ I shall _prove_ it right here, right now! First of all, you have literally no argument - just an emotional and impulsive response; carelessness is the nature of one who is not prepared to back up their statements... Secondly, IF he DID have kamui, then there would be absolutely no discussion at all as he would instantly kamui and warp Tsunade's head - done. It was serene, the way I gracefully DESTROYED your rash statement.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 13, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> five Susanoo Wood Clones all trying to kill her


No

Madara was literally playing with his food at that point and ...Actually at no point was he not playing with his food...But you get the point

Also Inb4 "he stabbed her though so hes clearly trying to kill her"

 ...A few Bunshin Susanoo love taps dont prove he was actively trying to end her with anywhere near his full effort or intent with said clones

We also have several instance of this manga of impalement or similar seemingly OHKO type attacks or tactics being used on opponents the user is actively avoiding trying to kill...


Isaiah13000 said:


> from daytime until nighttime


"Daytime to nighttime" can be as little as less than an hour...

And we have a tome reference from teh Kabuto and Obito fights...Do you think Sasuke and Itachi fought Kabuto for several hours?

Or that Gai and Kakashi are capable of fighting Jins for the same length of time?

If so...Sasukes stamina is insane given what he went on to do after fighting Kabuto, and kakashis and Gais is severely underrated as they can take Gated and MS strain for hours on end...

No...Neither of the above examples were long fights at all...

Therefore, since the Madara fight is happening concurrently with the above 2 examples...It was very clearly Dusk while the Kages fought Madara...At the latest...

But regardless, arguing stamina here is fucking moot

Kakashi obviously gets fodderstomped if this comes down to attrition

No need to make shit up tho 


Isaiah13000 said:


> and can even overwhelm one of them in direct combat


Sweet jesus 

She landed ONE hit and didnt even damage her target

Lets not get ahead of ourselves 

She didnt "overwhelm" shit andaha


Isaiah13000 said:


> but she can't handle 3T Kakashi?


Not with any ease she cant

Id say shed win overall, but Kakashi as of the war is easily able to at least push a Sannin


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## Santoryu (Aug 13, 2018)

Mad Scientist said:


> Wow. Your intellect dropped faster than the autumn leaves that got stranded in winter _and_ I shall _prove_ it right here, right now! First of all, you have literally no argument - just an emotional and impulsive response; carelessness is the nature of one who is not prepared to back up their statements... Secondly, IF he DID have kamui, then there would be absolutely no discussion at all as he would instantly kamui and warp Tsunade's head - done. It was serene, the way I gracefully DESTROYED your rash statement.



Top tier roast

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 13, 2018)




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## HokageSage2000 (Aug 13, 2018)

Tsunade in Bagukyo should beat Kakashi by heron crazy strength, regeneration, and speed increases. But without it she get Bushin feint into Raikiri, Lighting Hounds and Water Dragon.


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## Zero890 (Aug 13, 2018)

Architect said:


> And 5 V1 Ays > 3rd Raikage
> Even if you were right about that particular instance, you are still ignoring that Danzo didn't care being smashed.



However, Danzo could not dodge Susano every time he was close to Sasuke,


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## Architect (Aug 13, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> However, Danzo could not dodge Susano every time he was close to Sasuke,


he wouldn't need.


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## Ekkologix (Aug 13, 2018)

gna be a long fight but w.o ms kakashi just doesnt have enough dmg to burst thro tsunade's heals and all. Even with just MS its hard for him but atleast winnable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Swagashi (Aug 13, 2018)

No MS Kakashi wins, mid diff at most. MS Kakashi wins, low to no diff.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Zero890 (Aug 13, 2018)

Architect said:


> he wouldn't need.



Danzo is not an idiot either, he is not going to waste opportunities being close to Sasuke "committing suicide".


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## sabre320 (Aug 13, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Madara didn't corner them through his Mokuton and Katon. The clones weren't created until after the Kages' sealing attempt, during which all the Kage were able to move around freely. Mei's all jumped in front of her, not around her, and she was on elevated ground compared to them. They hadn't even activated Susano'o yet. There's no reason to think they ever engaged in some close-quarters exchange.
> 
> 
> 
> Danzō only got crushed when Susano'o was able to smash him _against the ground_. He didn't get crushed the other time he got hit- he just flew through the air like Mei did.



Dude sasuke was killed every time he was physically hit with sasukes skeletal sussano......mei was hit point blank with a giant legged v3 sussanos fist and it didnt even break her bones....the clones sussanos were much weaker.


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## sabre320 (Aug 13, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> You himself said it, Mei was tagged lol.
> 
> None of them was able to knock down a single Susano while Tsunade did it ... with 4 others at her side, a feat much harder than facing Kakashi lol.


Mei is a ninjutsu spammer she isnt suited to cqc and even then was tagged only once by 5 sussano clones even though they had her surrounded in close range.....thats certainly not a strong point for the sussano clones speed and reactions game.....

Tsunade was being incredibly reckless and actively engaged with v3 clones who had absolutely no intention of dodging her hits and even then the most she could accomplish was knock down a v3 clone which wasn't even damaged and got back up no problem.

Fact is the v3 clones werent very impressive when they could only land a hit on mei [who has average speed reactions and is a ninjutsu specialist and avoids cqc] when her chakra was exhausted and was surrounded by 5 of them/


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## Zero890 (Aug 13, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Mei is a ninjutsu spammer she isnt suited to cqc and even then was tagged only once by 5 sussano clones even though they had her surrounded in close range.....thats certainly not a strong point for the sussano clones speed and reactions game.....
> 
> Tsunade was being incredibly reckless and actively engaged with v3 clones who had absolutely no intention of dodging her hits and even then the most she could accomplish was knock down a v3 clone which wasn't even damaged and got back up no problem.
> 
> Fact is the v3 clones werent very impressive when they could only land a hit on mei [who has average speed reactions and is a ninjutsu specialist and avoids cqc] when her chakra was exhausted and was surrounded by 5 of them/



Mei is a long range fighter, there is no reason to think that those clones were close to her all the time when she would keep the distance ... and even then she was tagged.

Hitting a V3 Susano being surrounded by another 4 is harder than hitting Kakashi lol, It does not matter if they do not dodge her, the other 4 could still send Tsunade meters in another direction with a single hit.

The clones not only hit Mei, they also caught A4 and hit Gaara.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 13, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Dude sasuke was killed every time he was physically hit with sasukes skeletal sussano......mei was hit point blank with a giant legged v3 sussanos fist and it didnt even break her bones....the clones sussanos were much weaker.



Danzo survived both a slap and a punch by Susano'o, so no.


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## sabre320 (Aug 13, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Danzo survived both a slap and a punch by Susano'o, so no.


The dude turned into paste dude to a punch how are you denying this...the force of the punch turned him into mush from a lower version of sussano that wasnt even legged....the dude had hashi cells amping his endurance and vitality even....mei took one right to her whole body and didnt even cause debilitating damage when the sussano was legged and of a more advanced state...why are you denying this....it straight up happened.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 13, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> The dude turned into paste dude to a punch how are you denying this



_When it smashed him *into the ground*_, which _isn't_ what happened to Mei. Don't ask me how I'm denying something when you're the one whose eyes seem to have stopped working whenever you went past the panels of Danzō being hit through the air _like Mei_ and _surviving_. _*Both times*_.


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## sabre320 (Aug 13, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Mei is a long range fighter, there is no reason to think that those clones were close to her all the time when she would keep the distance ... and even then she was tagged.
> 
> Hitting a V3 Susano being surrounded by another 4 is harder than hitting Kakashi lol, It does not matter if they do not dodge her, the other 4 could still send Tsunade meters in another direction with a single hit.
> 
> The clones not only hit Mei, they also caught A4 and hit Gaara.


She was surrounded by the sussano in close range and with their chakra depleted the gokage couldnt keep up thier defense while the clones kept regening chakra.....gaara was tagged because he was worried about saving mei...and was sneak attacked when occupied same was the case with the raikage who was distracted when he was worried for tsunade.



The clones had the kages surrounded in cqc ....once they got exhausted they were eventually hit....

The clones literally donot care to dodge or block attacks....they were essentially toys sent by madara who was playing with the gokage...tsunade landed a hit on a stationary target who had absolutely no intention or reason to dodge....because the sussanos can tank any hits they take while counterattack the moment tsunade comes to land the hit...kakashi sure as hell isnt going to be standing there not dodging or blocking[ninjutsu], the fact that mei of all people was able to contend in cqc with the 5 clones for an extended period of time should tell you they weren't exactly being serious nor were they exactly speedsters.


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## sabre320 (Aug 13, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> _When it smashed him *into the ground*_, which _isn't_ what happened to Mei. Don't ask me how I'm denying something when you're the one whose eyes seem to have stopped working whenever you went past the panels of Danzō being hit through the air _like Mei_ and _surviving_. _*Both times*_.



The ground does not add force to the attack....the force of the punch is the same it only shattered the ground after crushing danzo.


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## Zero890 (Aug 13, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> She was surrounded by the sussano in close range and with their chakra depleted the gokage couldnt keep up thier defense while the clones kept regening chakra.....gaara was tagged because he was worried about saving mei...and was sneak attacked when occupied same was the case with the raikage who was distracted when he was worried for tsunade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



surrounded in CQC when she was reached, that does not mean that all the time they have been facing Mei in CQC and from what we know Mei is the one that keeps the distance.

Agreed, Gaara was reached because of Mei however A4 was without another factor


*Spoiler*: __ 









Mei was not fighting in CQC against the Susanos, there is no reason to believe that ... Mei does not have that fighting style.

And as I said hitting a V3 Susano without being hit by another in the process is much more difficult than hitting Kakashi who was stabbed by Tendo in CQC ... Tsunade is a specialist in Taijutsu better than Tendo.

Reactions: Like 2


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## FlamingRain (Aug 13, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> The ground does not add force to the attack....the force of the punch is the same it only shattered the ground after crushing danzo.



.........When there's another surface on one side of an object as it's hit the maximum amount of force can be exerted upon it. If you hit an object without something on the opposite side of it some of that force is lost as it's moved away. Real life science that applies to the Narutoverse, too. That's why Tsunade only put a dent in Madara's Susano'o the first time she hit it but managed to bust it open the second time; the first time some of the force was lost as Susano'o went flying, the second time she had Ay acting as a sort of brace. It's the same thing with Sasuke's Susano'o and Danzo, but replace Ay with the ground.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 13, 2018)

A guy who had a hard time against Zabuza vs a Sannin?


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## sabre320 (Aug 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> A guy who had a hard time against Zabuza vs a Sannin?


Thats like saying the 3 sannin who were trashed by a casual hanzo vs the guy who could take on multiple v2 jins amped by sharingan and rinnegan....taking the weakest version of a character for the argument is not very objective..

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Aug 14, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Danzo is not an idiot either, he is not going to waste opportunities being close to Sasuke "committing suicide".


he couldn't do anything to Susanoo without Baki.


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## Architect (Aug 14, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Mei is a long range fighter, there is no reason to think that those clones were close to her all the time when she would keep the distance ... and even then she was tagged.


they started pretty close from her.


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## Architect (Aug 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> A guy who had a hard time against Zabuza vs a Sannin?


A woman who got trashed in HTH by Kabuto against the strongest shinobi in Konoha?
What? You say Tsunade was rusty? So was Kakashi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Aug 14, 2018)

Architect said:


> A woman who got trashed in HTH by Kabuto against the strongest shinobi in Konoha?
> What? You say Tsunade was rusty? So was Kakashi



Not to mention it was a _part 1 Kabuto_ who's forte wasn't CQC, while Tsunade's was. Did I mention that Tsunade made an admission of Kabuto's senses and skills surpassing her prime form (albeit in a medical jutsu sense).

How you've fallen, OWYB.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Aug 14, 2018)

Architect said:


> A woman who got trashed in HTH by Kabuto against the strongest shinobi in Konoha?
> What? You say Tsunade was rusty? So was Kakashi


It wasn’t Part One Kakashi I was referring to.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 14, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> Madara was literally playing with his food at that point and ...Actually at no point was he not playing with his food...But you get the point
> 
> ...


 All of this is blatantly proven wrong by the fact that we actually see the Susanoo clones later on trying to kill the Kage. So by "playing games" he must mean in the sense by using the Wood Clones at all, instead of confronting them with more of his own power. The fact that Madara said he would kill her first, coupled with us seeing the clones trying to kill the Kage, with her being able to survive that long is an amazing feat on her end.



> "Daytime to nighttime" can be as little as less than an hour...
> 
> And we have a tome reference from teh Kabuto and Obito fights...Do you think Sasuke and Itachi fought Kabuto for several hours?
> 
> ...


 My point was it's still impressive because a good amount of time passed, so I don't see the point of this post.



> Sweet jesus
> 
> She landed ONE hit and didnt even damage her target
> 
> ...


 Landing one hit at all when confronted with five Susanoo Wood Clones each equipped with the EMS who have superior range over you and are actively trying to kill you is a great feat in of itself in general. Also, she punched it so hard it's head spun around, face cracked, and was knocked to the ground. That is considered overwhelming her target, even if only briefly. Also the fact that the other Susanoo clones weren't all right on top of her at the time, would indicate she had likely pushed them back as well considering they were scattered all over the place.



> Not with any ease she cant
> 
> Id say shed win overall, but Kakashi as of the war is easily able to at least push a Sannin


3T Kakashi is nothing more than a low Kage tier shinobi at best. Most Kage levels in general could dispatch of him without much difficulty, the Sannin are no different. No way in hell is she losing to 3T Kakashi or having "extreme difficulty" with him which indicates she barely wins. This whole thread is just major Kakashi wank (and Tsunade downplay) as per usual by the usual Masters supporters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Aug 14, 2018)




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## Santoryu (Aug 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> It wasn’t Part One Kakashi I was referring to.



That makes your interpretation look even worse


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## Santoryu (Dec 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Once a person's head is disconnected from the body and spine (not Hidan) it's instant death. The body is no longer getting commands from the brain and nerve system is off. Body shuts down along with everything not forgien inside.


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## dergeist (Dec 25, 2021)

Tsunade strap-on diffs.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Speedyamell (Dec 25, 2021)

When kakashi wank was at an all time high. Imagine 3t kakashi beating tsunade

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 2


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