# Katara vs Roy Mustang



## Wan (Oct 17, 2011)

It seems Mustang gets put up against other fire users quite a bit, but not other characters.  So! How does he handle being up against a water user like Katara?

Round 1:  Roy vs regular Katara
Round 2:  Roy vs Katara with the full moon.

Battleground is a forest with a large river running through it.  Katara and Roy start 50 meters away from each other along the riverbed.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 17, 2011)

I can assume she gets fried right off the bat right?


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## Light (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm almost positive that Mustang is a bullet timer, which Katara isn't, so she dies. Maybe not in scenario 2. But most definitely in scenario 1


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## Skywalker (Oct 17, 2011)

Lol Katara gets raped.


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## Onomatopoeia (Oct 17, 2011)

Roy snaps his fingers. GG.


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## Wan (Oct 17, 2011)

Drayden said:


> I'm almost positive that Mustang is a bullet timer, which Katara isn't, so she dies.



Based on what?


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## Monna (Oct 17, 2011)

Oman said:


> Based on what?


Nothing, though he could probably aim dodge.


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## Light (Oct 17, 2011)

Oman said:


> Based on what?



I did say I was almost positive


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## Commander Vimes (Oct 17, 2011)

1. Roy.
2. If Blood Lusted...Katara?


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## Superrazien (Oct 17, 2011)

Mustang wins via he blows her up.


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## Level7N00b (Oct 17, 2011)

Roy does her like he did Azula and burns her eyes out.


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

Katara could block the explosion with water, then splash Mustang to make him unable to make a spark.  And of course in scenario 2 Mustang won't even be able to snap.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> Katara could block the explosion with water, then splash Mustang to make him unable to make a spark.  And of course in scenario 2 Mustang won't even be able to snap.



Not even close more like:
The explosion travels so quickly she can't stop it.
Only time she could block it is if he held back.
Also finger snap>arm motions required for water bending.
In one and two Mustang blows her eyes out before she can bend anything and if she somehow gets him wet, he pulls out his gun and shoots her while she is blind.


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## Samavarti (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> Katara could block the explosion with water, then splash Mustang to make him unable to make a spark.  And of course in scenario 2 Mustang won't even be able to snap.



Considering that Roy can shoose where teh explosion begins, and karara has no way to predicting it, nor the reaction to block it before she gets fried, no she can't.
Katara need to move to do blood  bending, and roy mustang is most likely faster, and just needs to snap his fingers, so she still gets fried.


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> Considering that Roy can shoose where teh explosion begins, and karara has no way to predicting it, nor the reaction to block it before she gets fried, no she can't.
> Katara need to move to do blood  bending, and roy mustang is most likely faster, and just needs to snap his fingers, so she still gets fried.



There's still an ignition trail between Roy and the explosion, which can be blocked.  Roy's MO is to cause the explosion right in front of his opponent facing him, so his attacks are quite predictable.

As for reaction time, I asked for evidence that Roy's a bullet timer.  No one's provided it yet.

Sure, Katara needs to move to bloodbend -- which basically consists of stretching her hands out in front of her.  Roy usually raises his arm and snaps -- no real time difference.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> There's still an ignition trail between Roy and the explosion, which can be blocked.  Roy's MO is to cause the explosion right in front of his opponent facing him, so his attacks are quite predictable.
> 
> As for reaction time, I asked for evidence that Roy's a bullet timer.  No one's provided it yet.
> 
> Sure, Katara needs to move to bloodbend -- which basically consists of stretching her hands out in front of her.  Roy usually raises his arm and snaps -- no real time difference.


Katara knows nothing about roy's MO.
Also the ignition is almost as fast as his explosions.


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## zenieth (Oct 18, 2011)

/insert envy fight here.


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Katara knows nothing about roy's MO.



Not my point.  The point is that Roy's MO is so standard Katara doesn't _need_ to know it.  Oh no, fire attacks from the front!  Katara will totally be unprepared for those.  



> Also the ignition is almost as fast as his explosions.



Evidence?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> Not my point.  The point is that Roy's MO is so standard Katara doesn't _need_ to know it.  Oh no, fire attacks from the front!  Katara will totally be unprepared for those.
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence?



Already posted it 
Also no fire nation sets people on fire by snapping their fingers.


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Already posted it



First of all, manga is canon, not the anime.

Secondly, where's the evidence of speed?  I've heard Envy's supposed to be a bullet timer, but Hawkeye had no trouble filling him with lead.



> Also no fire nation sets people on fire by snapping their fingers.



Ok.  Your point?


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## zenieth (Oct 18, 2011)

She'll be completely caught off guard. She's no master of human martial prowess. That's not including that his flames are bigger than most fire alchemist and that the ignition is barely visible and if you blink, which she will it's over.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> First of all, manga is canon, not the anime.
> 
> Secondly, where's the evidence of speed?  I've heard Envy's supposed to be a bullet timer, but Hawkeye had no trouble filling him with lead.
> 
> ...



Hawkeye is the best shot in FMA and was fairly close when he was already grievously injured.
Obviously he wasn't going to be dodging anything in that situation.

That's the brother hood anime is as close as you can get to the manga except for small differences.

*Spoiler*: __ 







You see envy constantly being blown up before he can react.(his eyes got blown out twice right in front of him)
 Even assuming standard human reaction time for him it ends up with Katara's face blown off.


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## Level7N00b (Oct 18, 2011)

Why am I not surprised who the OP is rooting for?

Roy burns her eyes out, try blocking that with water.


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

zenieth said:


> She'll be completely caught off guard. She's no master of human martial prowess. That's not including that his flames are bigger than most fire alchemist and that the ignition is barely visible and if you blink, which she will it's over.



Bending is based on real-world martial arts.  By being a bending master, one is a martial arts master.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Hawkeye is the best shot in FMA and was fairly close when he was already grievously injured.
> Obviously he wasn't going to be dodging anything in that situation.



Being a good shot doesn't make your bullets faster.  And what do you mean by "grievously wounded"? He seemed fully regenerated when Hawkeye started firing.



> That's the brother hood anime is as close as you can get to the manga except for small differences.



Small differences?  Wrath cuts a tank round in half in the anime.  Never happens in the manga.

Regardless, it's OBD rules that the original manga is the primary source over the anime for debates.



> You see envy constantly being blown up before he can react.(his eyes got blown out twice right in front of him)



At a closer range than this match starts out at.  And Envy had no way to defend himself like Katara does.



> Even assuming standard human reaction time for him it ends up with Katara's face blown off.



Or Mustang's face buried in the ground.



			
				Level7Noob said:
			
		

> Why am I not surprised who the OP is rooting for?



Well, considering my set (and past sets), you could have been.   I really think it could go either way (else I wouldn't make the thread).  The majority of people in this thread thinks Roy would win, so I'm arguing for how Katara could win.  Simply agreeing with the majority would be no fun.  If the situation were reversed I'd be arguing for Mustang.



> Roy burns her eyes out, try blocking that with water.



Sure.  Block the ignition trail.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> Being a good shot doesn't make your bullets faster.  And what do you mean by "grievously wounded"? He seemed fully regenerated when Hawkeye started firing.


He uses up his very lifeforce when he regenerates.


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> He uses up his very lifeforce when he regenerates.



Ok...how would that affect his speed?  I have yet to see Envy's supposed bullet timing feat in the first place, btw.


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## zenieth (Oct 18, 2011)

water bending is based off of tai chi it's not one of the most diligent martial sects especially not the yang style which is the kind water bending incorporates.


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## zenieth (Oct 18, 2011)

This isn't even considering the fact that she needs a substantial force while roy can keep at it all day. Even if she manages to stop the initial one all he has to do is blow her water source to kingdom come.

Then there's the fact that he can control with both hands something unfortunately katara has not shown the ability to do.  Push comes to shove he'll just burn her left while she's blocking right.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm pretty sure Ozai or Ang are the only people capable of giving him problems and even then I remain unconvinced they would easily beat Roy

Katara finds her skin melted off and her eye balls burned out


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

zenieth said:


> This isn't even considering the fact that she needs a substantial force while roy can keep at it all day. Even if she manages to stop the initial one all he has to do is blow her water source to kingdom come.



I'm not sure what you mean here.  And the battle happens right next to a large river...not really removable from the battlefield by Roy.



> Then there's the fact that he can control with both hands something unfortunately katara has not shown the ability to do.  Push comes to shove he'll just burn her left while she's blocking right.



When has Roy made two separate, simultaneous explosions?


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## Hunter (Oct 18, 2011)

This isn't even a challenge for Roy. He quickly ignited Envy's eyes.


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

When?  I don't recall Roy fighting Bradley in the manga/Brotherhood, just the first anime (which lacks the bullet timing feats on Bradley's part).


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## zenieth (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> I'm not sure what you mean here.  And the battle happens right next to a large river...not really removable from the battlefield by Roy.
> 
> 
> 
> When has Roy made two separate, simultaneous explosions?



literally just posted


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

zenieth said:


> literally just posted



Envy just points out that Roy uses different hands for different kind of explosions.  In fact, that rather disproves your point.  He only does large explosions with a single hand.  In any case, he couldn't have made explosions simultaneously in that instance, because Envy purposefully positioned himself too close to Roy to use large explosions safely.  Hence using a pinpoint attack.


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## zenieth (Oct 18, 2011)

He just has to snap both fingers the seals do the rest. He can do it simultaneously. And as mentioned before if all else fails. Shoot her.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 18, 2011)

Katara lacks the speed to react to Roy's ignitions nor does she have the prowess to defend herself from him. Unlike the flames Zuko and Azula produce, Roy's flames result in explosions. And he can rapid-fire that until his enemy is crispy, ask Envy.


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## Plague (Oct 18, 2011)

Blood bending is powerful, but I don't remember if she needs the moon or not. Regardless, I think Mustang would win this either way.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 18, 2011)

she needs the moon for that and Azula if I recall resisted it..briefly

Roy fried his own internal injuries cauterizing the wound and despite the agony still managed to brutally beat the ever lasting shit out of Lust again and again until she was dust

I'm pretty sure he can resist blood bending enough to snap his fingers and explode the crap out of her immediate area breaking her focus and opening her up for an attack


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

zenieth said:


> He just has to snap both fingers the seals do the rest. He can do it simultaneously. And as mentioned before if all else fails. Shoot her.



No guns.  



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Nope.



And what's that supposed to prove....



Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Katara lacks the speed to react to Roy's ignitions nor does she have the prowess to defend herself from him. Unlike the flames Zuko and Azula produce, Roy's flames result in explosions. And he can rapid-fire that until his enemy is crispy, ask Envy.



Again with claims about Roy's speed!  Not once in this whole thread has Roy's speed been quantified.  Not once.

Since quantification seems to have been thrown out the window, I'll go ahead and show that Katara was able to react to and block Azula's lightning.



And on the topic of Azula and Zuko's firebending not causing explosions...






			
				The Immortal Watchdog said:
			
		

> she needs the moon for that and Azula if I recall resisted it..briefly



No, Katara never bloodbended Azula at all.  Katara's the only person who has resisted bloodbending, and she did so through waterbending, which Roy doesn't have.



> Roy fried his own internal injuries cauterizing the wound and despite the agony still managed to brutally beat the ever lasting shit out of Lust again and again until she was dust



Pain tolerance has nothing to do with resisting control over your body like bloodbending.



> I'm pretty sure he can resist blood bending enough to snap his fingers and explode the crap out of her immediate area breaking her focus and opening her up for an attack



There's no basis for this claim.


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## Gunners (Oct 18, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> she needs the moon for that and Azula if I recall resisted it..briefly
> 
> Roy fried his own internal injuries cauterizing the wound and despite the agony still managed to brutally beat the ever lasting shit out of Lust again and again until she was dust
> 
> I'm pretty sure he can resist blood bending enough to snap his fingers and explode the crap out of her immediate area breaking her focus and opening her up for an attack


Your recollection is incorrect. She never used bloodbending against Azula. 

That being said she loses in both scenarios, as Mustang will snap his fingers before she even starts to bend.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> No guns.


And yet you didn't ban it in the opening post.
What did you forget about it?


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

The Roy speed wanking is getting pretty funny.



			
				Unlosing Ranger said:
			
		

> And yet you didn't ban it in the opening post.
> What did you forget about it?



Roy never uses guns so I didn't see the need.  Anyways, saying he would resort to guns is basically a concession that he can't win just with his flame alchemy.


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## Matta Clatta (Oct 18, 2011)

Roy is not a bullet timer
A regular peek human is all hes ever been.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> No, Katara never bloodbended Azula at all.  Katara's the only person who has resisted bloodbending, and she did so through waterbending, which Roy doesn't have.



no he just has enormous will power and the ability to frag her far easier then she can exert control 



Oman said:


> Pain tolerance has nothing to do with resisting control over your body like bloodbending.



you're starting to sound like Bender ninja



Oman said:


> There's no basis for this claim.



him resisting external control and frying her? I doubt she can control some one that resilient and dogged I also highly doubt it'll ever even get that far she **cannot hit him* *before he causes her torso to explode



Oman said:


> The Roy speed wanking is getting pretty funny.



I admit you made me laugh




Oman said:


> Roy never uses guns so I didn't see the need.  Anyways, saying he would resort to guns is basically a concession that he can't win just with his flame alchemy.



how is it a concession? Roy is a pragmatic fighter underblood lust he'd just shoot the bitch if he feels his alchemy may not be fast enough to do it (which I highly doubt)


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> no he just has enormous will power and the ability to frag her far easier then she can exert control



Willpower has nothing to do with resisting bloodbending, and the last part is just unashamed Roy wanking.



> you're starting to sound like Bender ninja







> him resisting external control and frying her? I doubt she can control some one that resilient and dogged I also highly doubt it'll ever even get that far she **cannot hit him* *before he causes her torso to explode



You have yet to prove resilience and determination has anything to do with resisting bloodbending at all.  And still no speed feats on Roy's part.



> how is it a concession? Roy is a pragmatic fighter underblood lust he'd just shoot the bitch if he feels his alchemy may not be fast enough to do it (which I highly doubt)



When has Roy ever pulled a gun on his opponents?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> When has Roy ever pulled a gun on his opponents?


Lets see oh yea HE'S IN THE FREAKING MILITARY.

I mean what do you think he used before his flame alchemy?




Matta Clatta said:


> Roy is not a bullet timer
> A regular peek human is all hes ever been.



Peak human means he just snaps his finger and wins at the beginning of this match. 
A normal human could do about the same given those powers after all.

Though with peak human and good aim dodging it is pretty close to it. 
And he has to be a good aim dodger seeing as how precise he has to be.


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Lets see oh yea HE'S IN THE FREAKING MILITARY.
> 
> I mean what do you think he used before his flame alchemy?



Don't avoid the question.  When has Roy ever pulled a gun on his opponent?



> Peak human means he just snaps his finger and wins at the beginning of this match.
> A normal human could do about the same given those powers after all.
> 
> Though with peak human and good aim dodging it is pretty close to it.
> And he has to be a good aim dodger seeing as how precise he has to be.



You're ignoring that all Katara has to do is move her hands and Roy's caught in bloodbending.  At best, it's a 50/50 chance who will hit first.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> Don't avoid the question.  When has Roy ever pulled a gun on his opponent?


Why are you avoiding the question of katara being fried the second the fight starts?


Oman said:


> You're ignoring that all Katara has to do is move her hands and Roy's caught in bloodbending.  At best, it's a 50/50 chance who will hit first.


You are ignoring the fact that it takes less time to snap a finger making it 100% for roy in 1 and 2 since Katara is normal - peak human like mustang.


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Why are you avoiding the question of katara being fried the second the fight starts?



That's not a question, that's an argument, one I've addressed...in the same post.  Meanwhile you are still avoiding the question: when has Roy ever pulled a gun on an opponent?



> You are ignoring the fact that it takes less time to snap a finger making it 100% for roy in 1 and 2 since Katara is normal - peak human like mustang.



Really?  It quantifiably takes less time for Roy to lift his hand and snap (Roy never snaps with his arm resting at his side) than it does for Katara to lift her arms?  Your evidence is astounding.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> Really?  It quantifiably takes less time for Roy to lift his hand and snap (Roy never snaps with his arm resting at his side) than it does for Katara to lift her arms? * Your evidence is astounding.*


 I know right.


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

You aren't even trying, are you?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> You aren't even trying, are you?



I hope you aren't.


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## Commander Vimes (Oct 18, 2011)

I only gave scenario 2 to Katara because I assumed you only needed to like...tighten your muscle to bloodbend. 

That teaches me to not assume.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 18, 2011)

Oman said:


> Willpower has nothing to do with resisting bloodbending, and the last part is just unashamed Roy wanking.



willpower has nothing on it huh? Katara tries to bloodbend Dr Doom what happens?

seriously She has never subverted any one this tough who has his own means of screwing with this body



Oman said:


>



a massive ATTLAtard 




Oman said:


> You have yet to prove resilience and determination has anything to do with resisting bloodbending at all.



sorry but you claimed NLF basically I call bullshit on blood bendings ability to manipulate extremely tough opponents based on it never happening on screen 



Oman said:


> And still no speed feats on Roy's part.



many other posters have presented evidence of speed that you choose to ignore it or downplay does not change the reality that he is swifter and has a much easier means of bringing offensive power to the table



Oman said:


> When has Roy ever pulled a gun on his opponents?



it's a blood lusted match CIS in the case of a character like roy all but utterly vanishes if he's armed he'll use it..assuming of course he needs it..he does not at all


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## RWB (Oct 18, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> she needs the moon for that and Azula if I recall resisted it..briefly



Katara never used Bloodbending on Azula.

The only ones who put up resistance were waterbenders.


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## Bit Sean (Oct 18, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> willpower has nothing on it huh? Katara tries to bloodbend Dr Doom what happens?
> 
> seriously She has never subverted any one this tough who has his own means of screwing with this body



To be fair, bloodbending is purely physical, it's not like resisting a psychic attack. The equivalent would be someone made of metal resisting Magneto's powers through pure willpower (although that's probably happened at least once). Not suggesting that Katara's blood bending is as powerful as Magneto's powers, just that they work in the same sort of way.

I do think Mustang wins this though, he can immobilise Katara faster than she can mount an offense or a defense.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 18, 2011)

Bit Sean said:


> To be fair, bloodbending is purely physical, it's not like resisting a psychic attack. The equivalent would be someone made of metal resisting Magneto's powers through pure willpower (although that's probably happened at least once). Not suggesting that Katara's blood bending is as powerful as Magneto's powers, just that they work in the same sort of way.
> 
> I do think Mustang wins this though, he can immobilise Katara faster than she can mount an offense or a defense.



while that's true it isn't exactly a lawl hax technique you'd think physically superior characters would be able to form some type of resistance to it. Mustang seems to be fast enough to give problems to metahuman like characters and his damage soak and resilience is fairly high for those type of characters


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## Wan (Oct 18, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> willpower has nothing on it huh? Katara tries to bloodbend Dr Doom what happens?



Katara gets killed by the variety of superpowers that Dr. Doom has (which Mustang doesn't).



> seriously She has never subverted any one this tough who has his own means of screwing with this body
> 
> sorry but you claimed NLF basically I call bullshit on blood bendings ability to manipulate extremely tough opponents based on it never happening on screen



Anyone this tough?  Mustang's not "extremely tough".  Mustang is a just a human soldier who happens to be able to blow stuff up by snapping.  There's nothing special about him, physically.  Katara was able to bring the captain of the Southern Raiders, leader of a supposedly elite group of firebenders, to his knees with ease.  Mustang would be no different.



> many other posters have presented evidence of speed that you choose to ignore it or downplay does not change the reality that he is swifter and has a much easier means of bringing offensive power to the table



Some "feats" have been posted...none of which are quantifiable.  Unquantifiable feats are useless.  And as I said earlier, if unquantifiable feats are acceptable then there should be no problem accepting Katara blocking Azula's lightning as proof of her own speed.



> it's a blood lusted match CIS in the case of a character like roy all but utterly vanishes if he's armed he'll use it..assuming of course he needs it..he does not at all



I'm not even going to bother continuing to argue this.  No guns.  The point of this match is to pit Roy with his fire alchemy against Katara with her waterbending.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 18, 2011)

so you feel she can bloodbend him,..gotcha and hah!

those speed feats aren't unquantifiable at all Mustang has shown superior destructive capacity and range and the manner with which he can bring this power to bear is faster than katara;'s and she has no manner of defense against his flame alchemy..beyond splashing him which she can't do before dying in fire


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## King Hopper (Oct 18, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> it's a blood lusted match CIS in the case of a character like roy all but utterly vanishes if he's armed he'll use it..assuming of course he needs it..he does not at all



Which leads me to question a certain rain scene with Scar


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 18, 2011)

King Hopper said:


> Which leads me to question a certain rain scene with Scar



PIS plus Risa was there..and she's better then the rest


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## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> so you feel she can bloodbend him,..gotcha and hah!



Until you give a good reason she can't, then yeah, she can bloodbend him.



> those speed feats aren't unquantifiable at all



Ok.  Then quantify them.



> Mustang has shown superior destructive capacity and range







> and the manner with which he can bring this power to bear is faster than katara;'s



Nope.



> and she has no manner of defense against his flame alchemy..beyond splashing him which she can't do before dying in fire



Block the ignition or the explosion.  Stopping fire attacks is nothing new to Katara.



King Hopper said:


> Which leads me to question a certain rain scene with Scar



Wasn't that scene in the 2003 anime, though?


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## King Hopper (Oct 19, 2011)

It was in the manga IIRC


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 19, 2011)

As with most fights between non superhuman's with powers, the winner comes down to speed. If katara can put up that water ball she did against Azula, she'd probably negate his ability logn enough to blood bend control him. I'd say she'd need to use the blood bending given Roy has a gun and couldsimply shoot her if he notices fire is useless. 

Winner= Roy given kataa has no knowledge to ipen with a shield, and given snapping one's fingers doesn't take longer then whatever she's gonna do...


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## Commander Vimes (Oct 19, 2011)

King Hopper said:


> It was in the manga IIRC



If you're talking about where Mustang could not use his power in the rain. Then yes, it was.


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## King Hopper (Oct 19, 2011)

So yes, he does in fact have a gun 



Still considered totally useless by everyone else though


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> Until you give a good reason she can't, then yeah, she can bloodbend him.




Doom? How about him willing himself out a vivisection from a cosmic..or through sheer will power reassembling himself at the atomic level..

as for Mustang? He fried his own internal organs yet through sheer force of will took on a superhuman and won


deliberate misrepresentation of evidence..OP conditions don't have her on the fucking ocean/massive lake/ Rio De La plata style monstrosity 



Oman said:


> Nope.



bullshit all he has to do is snap his fingers and an area next to her or inside her body explodes...she can't hit him before that happens and you haven't debunked either Mustangs speed nor provided solid evidence for her speed



Oman said:


> Block the ignition or the explosion.  Stopping fire attacks is nothing new to Katara.



so you're taking Bender ninjas place then gotcha


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## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Doom? How about him willing himself out a vivisection from a cosmic..or through sheer will power reassembling himself at the atomic level..



None of which Mustang can do.



> as for Mustang? He fried his own internal organs yet through sheer force of will took on a superhuman and won



Ok, so he's got pretty good pain tolerance.  How does that prove he can resist bloodbending?  There's no pain involved, just control of the blood.



> deliberate misrepresentation of evidence..OP conditions don't have her on the fucking ocean/massive lake/ Rio De La plata style monstrosity



It's next to a large river.  "Large rivers" can include the Nile, Amazon, or Mississipi.  Pretty big sources of water. Regardless, it contradicts your point that Mustang has larger destructive capacity.



> bullshit all he has to do is snap his fingers and an area next to her or inside her body explodes...she can't hit him before that happens and you haven't debunked either Mustangs speed nor provided solid evidence for her speed



And all Katara has to do is lift her arms and Mustang's stiff as a board or his face is shoved into the ground.  How is Katara blocking Azula's lightning not solid evidence, while the "evidence" that's been provided for Mustang is?  There's nothing _to_ debunk since you avoided quantified Mustang's speed feats, despite claiming they are quantifiable.



> so you're taking Bender ninjas place then gotcha



Personal attacks are what someone resorts to when they've lost an argument.


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## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

Lift  arms vs. snap fingers?

I wonder what wins

oh and no roy doesn't need to lift his hand the snap is all that suffices


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## Kurou (Oct 19, 2011)

He only snaps for the spark so yeah, really doesn't need to do anything else. Why this is even ongoing is beyond me


----------



## Silver2195 (Oct 19, 2011)

I don't know why people keep claiming peak humans from FMA are bullet timers.  

Mustang wins normally and Katara wins with full moon.


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Lift  arms vs. snap fingers?
> 
> I wonder what wins



Quickly raise your arm.  Then snap your fingers starting with your palm open.  No significant time difference.  At best it's a 50/50 chance which one will hit faster.



> oh and no roy doesn't need to lift his hand the snap is all that suffices



And the fact that he lifts his hand every.  Single. Time.  he snaps doesn't matter because...

If Roy's arms are already in a position where he's comfortable snapping at the beginning of the fight, then it's only fair to have Katara's arms already stretched out as well.


----------



## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

Except that in order to waterbend you need to perform a taichi motion, lifting your arms is not going to cut it. She's not the freaking avatar.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> And the fact that he lifts his hand every.  Single. Time.  he snaps doesn't matter because...



PIS.




Or were you not reading when they explained the way his alchemy works?


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Except that in order to waterbend you need to perform a taichi motion, lifting your arms is not going to cut it. She's not the freaking avatar.






To hold someone still with bloodbending just involves raising your arms.  Lowering your arms pushes them down.



> PIS.
> 
> Or were you not reading when they explained the way his alchemy works?



So the entire fighting MO of a character is PIS?  Ok bro.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> So the entire fighting MO of a character is PIS?  Ok bro.



He doesn't need to move his arms, he just does, that's what's known as PIS/CIS


----------



## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

All he needs to do is snap raising his arms is entirely a character trait a habit and bloodlust should negate it. Also bloodbending is only in one scenario.


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> He doesn't need to move his arms, he just does, that's what's known as PIS/CIS



And he has no reason _not_ to do it in this match any more than any of his other fights.  Bloodlust wouldn't change a subconscious habit like that.  He definitely was bloodlusted against Envy but was throwing his hands all over the place.


----------



## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

And that's the puppet master's bloodbending. Katara has to do taichi poses to get hers off again Boiled eyes


----------



## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

Fact of the matter he's a grown fit man who only needs to raise his arms(I'm giving this to you since your so damn stubborn) and snap his fingers to pull off an explosion of any notable size. Katara in everything she does needs to do some form of taichi, which guess what takes more time. he fries her eyes.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> And he has no reason _not_ to do it in this match any more than any of his other fights.  Bloodlust wouldn't change a subconscious habit like that.  He definitely was bloodlusted against Envy but was throwing his hands all over the place.



Except that's not how it works in the OBD. Bloodlust in the OBD means he gets rid of any retarded habits like that. Who says it was subconscious anyway? For all intents and purposes he did it in the manga of his own volition just because, it isn't some deep psychological trait that's embedded into his brain.


----------



## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

And despite Roy's envy bloodlust he did his actions with purpose he had intent beyond just killing the sht out of him. He wanted envy to suffer as he did it.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> None of which Mustang can do.



I didn't bring it up because mustang could do it I brought it up because of how quickly you ran to 'lawl she blood bends him" which does point to a certain amount of biased\



Oman said:


> Ok, so he's got pretty good pain tolerance.  How does that prove he can resist bloodbending?  There's no pain involved, just control of the blood.



maybe you;re not comprehending this or you are but being deliberately obtuse- the man fried his insides to prevent internal bleeding despite receiving a near fatal wound and further damaging it..he got up walked across a huge facility and **still had the force of will to make himself engage a superhuman faster than anything Katara has ever faced and destroy her repeatedly despite her attempting to blitz him* *

this proves he not only has the will but the swiftness even when severely debilitated to take an enemy out much faster than Katara 



Oman said:


> It's next to a large river.  "Large rivers" can include the Nile, Amazon, or Mississipi.  Pretty big sources of water.



no those aren't large rivers those are among the largest in the world those are record holders....though it's nice to see you immediately change it to "Amazon size' the moment you got called out



Oman said:


> Regardless, it contradicts your point that Mustang has larger destructive capacity.



Regardless nothing those are special circumstances not open to the OP unless you;re going to change it again mid thread to further rig things for Katara 



Oman said:


> And all Katara has to do is lift her arms and Mustang's stiff as a board or his face is shoved into the ground.  How is Katara blocking Azula's lightning not solid evidence, while the "evidence" that's been provided for Mustang is?  There's nothing _to_ debunk since you avoided quantified Mustang's speed feats, despite claiming they are quantifiable.



all Mustang has to do is snap his fingers from a stationary position to kill her instantly...and he has shown able to do this against very fast enemies

as to the Azula thing for numerous reasons 1: lighting takes charge up time and it honestly sans PIS is very much something any one with decent aim dodging feats could get around 2: while Azula was fast she was not anywhere near as fast as Homonculus especially the ones Mustang killed



Oman said:


> Personal attacks are what someone resorts to when they've lost an argument.



no that's not a personal attack that's an assessment of your misconduct and you haven't mustered an effective counter at all..so don't go there



~Strike Man~ said:


> He only snaps for the spark so yeah, really doesn't need to do anything else. Why this is even ongoing is beyond me



because apparently Azula is faster than..Meta-humans



Oman said:


> Quickly raise your arm.  Then snap your fingers starting with your palm open.  No significant time difference.  At best it's a 50/50 chance which one will hit faster.



try from his waist 



Oman said:


> And the fact that he lifts his hand every.  Single. Time.  he snaps doesn't matter because...



it's a personal quirk that would not remain under bloodlust 



Oman said:


> If Roy's arms are already in a position where he's comfortable snapping at the beginning of the fight, then it's only fair to have Katara's arms already stretched out as well.



oh goodness here we go again: Roy does what he does because he's flashy and its a quirk later on..Katara does what she does plus a series of motions that take critical seconds no less..because she has no other choice


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

zenieth said:


> And that's the puppet master's bloodbending. Katara has to do taichi poses to get hers off again Boiled eyes



No.  One of the links I posted was of Katara just lifting her arms to bloodbend.



~Strike Man~ said:


> Except that's not how it works in the OBD. Bloodlust in the OBD means he gets rid of any retarded habits like that. Who says it was subconscious anyway? For all intents and purposes he did it in the manga of his own volition just because, it isn't some deep psychological trait that's embedded into his brain.



Oh really?



Ippy said:


> *Character Induced Stupidity:*
> It should be on, but the characters should be out to win.
> 
> CIS refers to a character's tendencies in battle.  Basically, just because a character can go all out from the start and use their most powerful abilities, or use tactics that would ensure victory, they most likely won't, if CIS is in effect.



"Being out to win" doesn't necessitate dropping habits like that.  Unless Mustang was never out to win at any time in the series.

I call it subconscious because it's probably something he doesn't even notice himself in the heat of the moment.  If anything bloodlust would make him less likely to notice it.



zenieth said:


> And despite Roy's envy bloodlust he did his actions with purpose he had intent beyond just killing the sht out of him. He wanted envy to suffer as he did it.



Wildly gesturing his arms around did nothing to make Envy suffer more.  Unless it somehow makes his flames hotter. 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I didn't bring it up because mustang could do it I brought it up because of how quickly you ran to 'lawl she blood bends him" which does point to a certain amount of biased\



And everyone else running to "lawl he explodes her" doesn't show a bias, or it somehow matters in my case and not everyone else's?



> maybe you;re not comprehending this or you are but being deliberately obtuse- the man fried his insides to prevent internal bleeding despite receiving a near fatal wound and further damaging it..he got up walked across a huge facility and **still had the force of will to make himself engage a superhuman faster than anything Katara has ever faced and destroy her repeatedly despite her attempting to blitz him* *
> 
> this proves he not only has the will but the swiftness even when severely debilitated to take an enemy out much faster than Katara.



An enemy who didn't have bloodbending.  Force of will won't let Mustang take control of his blood back from Katara, and he doesn't have superhuman strength.  And what speed feat shows Lust being faster than Katara?



> no those aren't large rivers those are among the largest in the world those are record holders....though it's nice to see you immediately change it to "Amazon size' the moment you got called out



The largest rivers in the world are...not large?



> Regardless nothing those are special circumstances not open to the OP unless you;re going to change it again mid thread to further rig things for Katara



The intent of the OP was that Katara has enough water available to her to do whatever waterbending technique she's capable of.  Sorry I didn't make that explicit.  But why are you whining about this in the first place?  If Mustang wins like you've said it wouldn't matter.  Now stop acting like you are the OP yourself.



> all Mustang has to do is snap his fingers from a stationary position to kill her instantly...and he has shown able to do this against very fast enemies



Ok, you said what he could do.  You haven't quantified said action.



> as to the Azula thing for numerous reasons 1: lighting takes charge up time and it honestly sans PIS is very much something any one with decent aim dodging feats could get around 2: while Azula was fast she was not anywhere near as fast as Homonculus especially the ones Mustang killed



Katara moved the water after Azula launched the lightning, so it wasn't aim dodging.


----------



## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

No neither of the links you posted had katara bloodbending by just raising her hands. it was all the puppet master. The later screens has katara doing it in full taichi glory aka she needs to be intricate with it.

He said he was going to aim for his tongue and eyes. He was clearly out to torture envy whilst killing his philosopher stone count.


----------



## Commander Vimes (Oct 19, 2011)

Thread Needs to End.

1. Roy Wins 10/10
2. Roy Wins 9/10


----------



## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

nobody naturally raises and lowers their arms like this.


----------



## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

Hell the puppet master doesn't even just raise and lower her arms to pull it off. she initially raises her arms and then once again back into taichi.


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

zenieth said:


> He said he was going to aim for his tongue and eyes. He was clearly out to torture envy whilst killing his philosopher stone count.



So he was lifting his hands to aim?  Be careful what you imply, because you may just be about to disprove your argument all by yourself.



zenieth said:


> nobody naturally raises and lowers their arms like this.



Your definition of "Full taichi glory"...is holding one hand in front of the other.

Really complex move there!

What I'm arguing is that simply catching someone in bloodbending only requires raising one's arms.  Forcing complex motions requires taichi moves, sure, but that's not needed here.  Just paralyze Mustang and shove him into the ground.


----------



## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

And guess what those hands in front of one another?

Still takes more effort than snapping two fingers.

Again boiled eyes.


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

zenieth said:


> And guess what those hands in front of one another?
> 
> Still takes more effort than snapping two fingers.



Good thing Roy does a little more than snapping his fingers, then.



> Again boiled eyes.



Again shoved into the ground/block with water.


----------



## zenieth (Oct 19, 2011)

okay raise hand a quarter of the way, he's done this before, she needs to put her hands over her head if you want to be technical. And then boils her eyes out.

Or are you going to say she can put those hands up a further distance, spread apart quicker than he can snap his fingers from a much shorter distance?

And this is only for scenario 2 since scenario 1 is a pure slaughter.


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

zenieth said:


> okay raise hand a quarter of the way, he's done this before, she needs to put her hands over her head if you want to be technical. Or are you going to say she can put those hands up a further distance, spread apart quicker than he can snap his fingers from a much shorter distance?



Over her head? Hama does that to control Aang and Sokka from behind her, but Katara doesn't raise her hands over her head.

What I'm saying is that the what difference there is is so insignificant that there is no basis for the overwhelming bias here that Mustang torches her from the start without any chance of Katara defending.



> And this is only for scenario 2 since scenario 1 is a pure slaughter.



I do agree Mustang has the advantage overall in the first scenario.  8/10 for Mustang.  Katara needs to quickly block Roy's alchemy to survive at first and splash Roy.  Otherwise he torches her.

Scenario 2 Katara wins 6/10, who gets off the first move is very important.  Katara has an advantage in that she can defend herself from Roy's attacks while Roy has no direct defense against bloodbending.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> And everyone else running to "lawl he explodes her" doesn't show a bias.



not when canon precedence actually backs them up, no not really

I'm also curious as to how you feel Katara can for example prevent an alchemical reaction from causing an explosion..inside her heart or ovaries or intestines..or lungs

y'know because I totally remember seeing the episode when a waterbender easily blocked an attack that caused an explosion inside their body...I mean totally



Oman said:


> An enemy who didn't have bloodbending.



so what? you act like Lust is nothing impressive




Oman said:


> Force of will won't let Mustang take control of his blood back from Katara, .



you have no basis to make this claim



Oman said:


> And what speed feat shows Lust being faster than Katara?



good lord Oman you haven't even been able to successfully debunk Mustang's better reaction time and reflexes are you seriously going to try and tackle this?



Oman said:


> The largest rivers in the world are...not large?



they are so large you need to make special note of them..as they are y'know the largest fucking rivers in the world

you made it out to be just a big river...when people think big river we think this 

not this


Katara is not going to bringing to bare to force required to bring ships down unless she's near something like the above and you need to fucking clarify this..not in an asspull mid thread when your side is loosing but before you make the god damn post 




Oman said:


> The intent of the OP was that Katara has enough water available to her to do whatever waterbending technique she's capable of.  Sorry I didn't make that explicit.



and it's your responsibility to make this clear form the beginning..not do it after you've exhausted every other option your side has to succeed 



Oman said:


> But why are you whining about this in the first place?  If Mustang wins like you've said it wouldn't matter.



the principle matters; the duty of any poster who wants to become a permanent face on a vs section or a reg..is to attack wank when ever it appears even if the victory does not hinge on the slightest detail

you see bullshit you stop it..period 



Oman said:


> Now stop acting like you are the OP yourself.



how about you stop pulling crap like this and us mere transient thread denziens wont have too 



Oman said:


> Ok, you said what he could do.  You haven't quantified said action.



umm excuse me? He has the capacity with a mere snap of his fingers to cause a powerful explosion to occur *within her* or a centimeter right next to her 

everything between her neck and crotch explodes violently 




Oman said:


> Katara moved the water after Azula launched the lightning, so it wasn't aim dodging.



then you damn well know it's an outlier and falls under the SM vs FL exemption due to the fact that she never ever showed that type of reaction time before or sense..and it would place her at Irohs level which she absolutely...positively is not even remotely close to


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> not when canon precedence actually backs them up, no not really
> 
> I'm also curious as to how you feel Katara can for example prevent an alchemical reaction from causing an explosion..inside her heart or ovaries or intestines..or lungs
> 
> y'know because I totally remember seeing the episode when a waterbender easily blocked an attack that caused an explosion inside their body...I mean totally



First of all, Mustang has never caused an alchemical reaction inside someone's body.  Secondly, the Roy's alchemy doesn't actually cause the explosion, it sets up the explosion.  His spark gloves cause it.  The ignition trail between his gloves and the explosion site can be stopped.



> so what? you act like Lust is nothing impressive



So it has nothing to do with Roy resisting bloodbending.  Impressive as Lust is, she doesn't have bloodbending.



> you have no basis to make this claim



What, can Roy magically control his blood through force of will now?



> good lord Oman you haven't even been able to successfully debunk Mustang's better reaction time and reflexes are you seriously going to try and tackle this?



Why don't you stop avoiding the question and actually show Lust is faster, then we'll find out?



> they are so large you need to make special note of them..as they are y'know the largest fucking rivers in the world
> 
> you made it out to be just a big river...when people think big river we think this
> 
> not this



Since when do _you_ decide what _I_ meant?  I don't give a damn what other people think.



> Katara is not going to bringing to bare to force required to bring ships down unless she's near something like the above and you need to fucking clarify this..not in an asspull mid thread when your side is loosing but before you make the god damn post



Actually the first seems like enough water to me.



> and it's your responsibility to make this clear form the beginning..not do it after you've exhausted every other option your side has to succeed



Exhausted every option?  I was simply countering the point that Roy has greater destructive capacity.  I didn't tie it in to Katara winning.



> the principle matters; the duty of any poster who wants to become a permanent face on a vs section or a reg..is to attack wank when ever it appears even if the victory does not hinge on the slightest detail
> 
> you see bullshit you stop it..period



So posting a picture of a feat -- without putting any kind of spin on it -- is wanking now?



> umm excuse me? He has the capacity with a mere snap of his fingers to cause a powerful explosion to occur *within her* or a centimeter right next to her
> 
> everything between her neck and crotch explodes violently



You're just repeating yourself.   So he snaps.  Fine.  What about that snap makes it too fast for Katara to react?



> then you damn well know it's an outlier and falls under the SM vs FL exemption due to the fact that she never ever showed that type of reaction time before or sense..and it would place her at Irohs level which she absolutely...positively is not even remotely close to



Outlier? Aang, Zuko, and Iroh all have similar lightning reaction feats, plot central feats no less.  Katara's feat in particular comes at the end of the series, so past feats don't hold more weight than it.


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Oct 19, 2011)

Can mustang blow her up from 50 meters away? Katara would probably have stood a better chance if she knew his abilities.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2011)

VastoLorDae said:


> Can mustang blow her up from 50 meters away? Katara would probably have stood a better chance if she knew his abilities.



If he can see you he can pretty much blow you up.
Or if he knows your general location within that area of sight range.


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

You guys would make great fan fiction.


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Oct 19, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> If he can see you he can pretty much blow you up.
> Or if he knows your general location within that area of sight range.



But when he snaps his fingers doesn't his ability still need to travel? I mean he could not automatically tag wrath with it and he was way closer then 50 meters.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2011)

VastoLorDae said:


> But when he snaps his fingers doesn't his ability still need to travel? I mean he could not automatically tag wrath with it and he was way closer then 50 meters.



True, I never said it was instant.
The further it is the longer it needs to travel, not to mention it is required to have an extreme amount of precision.
I would assume for precision his 100% range would be the furthest distance it takes to recognize a human face with 20/20 vision under normal conditions.
Usually after he snaps you lit on fire or exploded.


He had to be a considerable distance away for this.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> First of all, Mustang has never caused an alchemical reaction inside someone's body.  Secondly, the Roy's alchemy doesn't actually cause the explosion, it sets up the explosion.  His spark gloves cause it.  The ignition trail between his gloves and the explosion site can be stopped.



1, he's fried peoples insides blown their eyes out of their sockerts

2, it can be stopped by who? Katara not based on feats



Oman said:


> What, can Roy magically control his blood through force of will now?



and yet you still haven't proven a person can't resist it via sheer force of will/toughness 



Oman said:


> Why don't you stop avoiding the question and actually show Lust is faster, then we'll find out?



why don't you deal with one thing at a time



Oman said:


> Since when do _you_ decide what _I_ meant?  I don't give a damn what other people think.



Genious when your the OP'er it falls on you the clarify these things in the OP not pull fast ones at the last minute 



Oman said:


> Actually the first seems like enough water to me.



not when she previously did that on an ocean 



Oman said:


> Exhausted every option?  I was simply countering the point that Roy has greater destructive capacity.  I didn't tie it in to Katara winning.



you omitted some rather critical details namely she can't do that anywhere..



Oman said:


> So posting a picture of a feat -- without putting any kind of spin on it -- is wanking now?



when you deliberately misrepresent it as if she can do it anywhere


Oman said:


> You're just repeating yourself.   So he snaps.  Fine.  What about that snap makes it too fast for Katara to react?



her lack of speed feats and your failure to address roys speed



Oman said:


> Outlier? Aang, Zuko, and Iroh all have similar lightning reaction feats, plot central feats no less.  Katara's feat in particular comes at the end of the series, so past feats don't hold more weight than it.



only they're superior to her..Iroh and Aang to the point that they could dismiss her with the ease an adult Tyrannosaur would a wolf and Zuko did show towards the middle point and onward superior feats to her in various instances

her entire consistent history matters


----------



## sonic546 (Oct 19, 2011)

6 pages!

This ended at "boiled eyes".


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> 1, he's fried peoples insides blown their eyes out of their sockerts
> 
> 2, it can be stopped by who? Katara not based on feats



1.  Eyes are not someone's "insides".  It's just a precision exterior attack.
2.  Put water in front of it.



> and yet you still haven't proven a person can't resist it via sheer force of will/toughness



You haven't proven such a thing is possible in the first place.  It doesn't matter how strong your will is, if you're a normal human and your blood starts getting jerked around stronger than your muscles can move there's jack all you can do about it.



> why don't you deal with one thing at a time



So you're conceding this for now?  Ok.



> Genious when your the OP'er it falls on you the clarify these things in the OP not pull fast ones at the last minute



Sorry, I didn't think I needed to clarify that Katara would have enough water available.  Even though fighting at their highest capability is one of the OBD assumptions.



> not when she previously did that on an ocean



She didn't manipulate the whole ocean, just enough to push around the battleship.  A large river could provide that.



> you omitted some rather critical details namely she can't do that anywhere..
> 
> when you deliberately misrepresent it as if she can do it anywhere



I didn't "omit" anything because I didn't claim anything.  I just showed that she has the feat.  You are free to argue that she doesn't have enough water to do so (and you would be wrong) but saying I'm "deliberately misrepresenting evidence" when I just posted the picture is unfounded.

The point is, Katara's shown feat is on a greater scale than Roy's.



> her lack of speed feats and your failure to address roys speed



Failure to address Roy's speed?  This _is_ addressing Roy's speed. The very thing you quoted is discussing Roy's speed.  You have repeatedly refused to give any kind of quantification to how fast Roy can raise his hand and snap other than "he snaps", which is tautological, circular reasoning and doesn't prove anything.



> only they're superior to her..Iroh and Aang to the point that they could dismiss her with the ease an adult Tyrannosaur would a wolf and Zuko did show towards the middle point and onward superior feats to her in various instances
> 
> her entire consistent history matters



Ok, let's look at that history.

Katara exceeded Aang at waterbending under Master Pakku's training and ended up being the one to continue training Aang.
Katara fought Zuko evenly in "The Siege of the North."
Katara individually fought Zuko and Azula evenly in "Crossroads of Destiny" -- and I should point out that in "The Chase" Azula landed a hit on Iroh.
Katara managed to defeat Azula while she had comet power. The critical moment of this fight was freezing Azula before Azula could get a fireblast on her.

I don't see anything that means speed feats that would put her on the same level (speed-wise) as Aang, Zuko, or Iroh should automatically be thrown out.  Sure, they have more _raw power_ than her.  Raw power is not the same as speed, though.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> 1.  Eyes are not someone's "insides".  It's just a precision exterior attack.



umm no when their exploding outward popping it's pretty clearly an interior attack 




Oman said:


> 2.  Put water in front of it.



To qoute ECW fans "BULLLSSHIIT...BUULLLSSSHHIIITT"




Oman said:


> You haven't proven such a thing is possible in the first place.  It doesn't matter how strong your will is, if you're a normal human and your blood starts getting jerked around stronger than your muscles can move there's jack all you can do about it.



and yet we're clearly not dealing with a normal human by real world standards..considering his feats



Oman said:


> So you're conceding this for now?  Ok.



nope I'm saying make a proper effort to debunk Mustangs speed first



Oman said:


> Sorry, I didn't think I needed to clarify that Katara would have enough water available. * Even though fighting at their highest capability is one of the OBD assumptions.*



fighting at their best is a standard assumption but if that character requires an external source of its larger feats..it does not get that source..with it unless stated other wise by the OP..you did nothing of the sort until much later

[





Oman said:


> She didn't manipulate the whole ocean, just enough to push around the battleship.  A large river could provide that.



firenation battleships can be massive some of them near old school WW2 carrier level it seems..you can't stack more than one of those in most rivers people would consider large...you can fit those in things like the river I linked above..or a great lake



Oman said:


> I didn't "omit" anything because I didn't claim anything.  I just showed that she has the feat.  You are free to argue that she doesn't have enough water to do so (and you would be wrong) but saying I'm "deliberately misrepresenting evidence" when I just posted the picture is unfounded


.

she hardly has enough water..volume for that feat merely posting it as though she can actually do that in any given setting is dishonest 



Oman said:


> The point is, Katara's shown feat is on a greater scale than Roy's.



not with out external resources 



Oman said:


> Failure to address Roy's speed?  This _is_ addressing Roy's speed. The very thing you quoted is discussing Roy's speed.  You have repeatedly refused to give any kind of quantification to how fast Roy can raise his hand and snap other than "he snaps", which is tautological, circular reasoning and doesn't prove anything.



no all you did was 'herp derp unquantifiable" does not fly





Oman said:


> Ok, let's look at that history.
> 
> Katara exceeded Aang at waterbending under Master Pakku's training and ended up being the one to continue training Aang.



and if it came to a fight..she'd get godstomped




Oman said:


> Katara fought Zuko evenly in "The Siege of the North."



and then he proceeded to have better feats



Oman said:


> Katara individually fought Zuko and Azula evenly in "Crossroads of Destiny" --



I'm pretty sure those fights consisted of Azula and Zuko's fire being parried or deflected and were largely defensive actions on Kataras part



Oman said:


> and I should point out that in "The Chase" Azula landed a hit on Iroh.



a distracted Iroh who prior and then later in the series made her look like a joke

Hell piandao in the end made Azula look hilariously inferior in terms of reaction time and stuff Iroh was one of the strongest physically and mentally and spiritually members of the white lotus..do not pretend that Azula was more than an insignificant joke to him who got off one lucky shot



Oman said:


> Katara managed to defeat Azula while she had comet power. The critical moment of this fight was freezing Azula before Azula could get a fireblast on her.



a mentally unbalanced Azula who was hallucinating had degenerated to a state were she nearly bestial..and she had help from Zuko 

while she was steroided she was not fighting competently nor was she her old self she was completely and mentally unhinged and fighting with an insane desperation and mania..



Oman said:


> I don't see anything that means speed feats that would put her on the same level (speed-wise) as Aang, Zuko, or Iroh should automatically be thrown out.  Sure, they have more _raw power_ than her.  Raw power is not the same as speed, though.



when one leaves out critical details  one can get that impression but that's a distorted view


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> umm no when their exploding outward popping it's pretty clearly an interior attack



Prove it.



> To qoute ECW fans "BULLLSSHIIT...BUULLLSSSHHIIITT"



Your internet tough guy act doesn't help your argument. If there's water between the spark and the explosion site, the spark would get put out.



> and yet we're clearly not dealing with a normal human by real world standards..considering his feats



Yes, he is a normal human.  He has no superhuman strength, speed, or durability feats.  Just damn tough will and pain tolerance, which isn't necessarily superhuman.



> nope I'm saying make a proper effort to debunk Mustangs speed first



As long as you don't bring up Lust's speed again.



> fighting at their best is a standard assumption but if that character requires an external source of its larger feats..it does not get that source..with it unless stated other wise by the OP..you did nothing of the sort until much later



I assumed "large river" would be enough.



> firenation battleships can be massive some of them near old school WW2 carrier level it seems..you can't stack more than one of those in most rivers people would consider large...you can fit those in things like the river I linked above..or a great lake



I don't know if I want to argue with you about the size of the Fire Nation ship, because Katara pushing around a WW2 carrier sounds pretty cool.    She doesn't even need to move half that amount of water to exceed Roy, in that case.



> she hardly has enough water..volume for that feat merely posting it as though she can actually do that in any given setting is dishonest



You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said she can do it in any setting.



> not with out external resources



I'm just talking about the specific feat.  The feat she pulled off is greater than Roy's largest feat.  Whining that she doesn't have enough water here to do it doesn't change that.



> no all you did was 'herp derp unquantifiable" does not fly



Why? If you're so sure it's quantifiable, then _quantify it._



> and if it came to a fight..she'd get godstomped



For reasons other than speed.



> and then he proceeded to have better feats



Nope, a whole season finale later they were fighting evenly again.



> I'm pretty sure those fights consisted of Azula and Zuko's fire being parried or deflected and were largely defensive actions on Kataras part



Actually, Katara managed to get the upper hand on Azula and was trading blows with Zuko, not simply defending.







> a distracted Iroh who prior and then later in the series made her look like a joke
> 
> Hell piandao in the end made Azula look hilariously inferior in terms of reaction time and stuff Iroh was one of the strongest physically and mentally and spiritually members of the white lotus..do not pretend that Azula was more than an insignificant joke to him who got off one lucky shot



Being leader of the Order of the White Lotus doesn't mean one is universally better than the other members.  If so than you'd have to accept that Iroh can levitate with firebending just like Jeong Jeong.



> a mentally unbalanced Azula who was hallucinating had degenerated to a state were she nearly bestial..and she had help from Zuko
> 
> while she was steroided she was not fighting competently nor was she her old self she was completely and mentally unhinged and fighting with an insane desperation and mania..



First of all, when fighting Azula, Katara had no help from Zuko, as he was on the ground twitching from his lightning wound at the time.  But sure, Azula was unhinged at the time.  This unhinged Azula was still battling Zuko pretty evenly.



> when one leaves out critical details  one can get that impression but that's a distorted view



None of those details invalidate Katara's lightning reaction feat.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> Prove it.



...you can't be serious after dodging and ignoring evidence and all the stunts you've pulled?



Oman said:


> Your internet tough guy act doesn't help your argument. If there's water between the spark and the explosion site, the spark would get put out.



LOLWUT? I'm probably the tamest least aggressive poster out of all the most commonly posting  especially because unless it's a constant thing I don't hold past sins against people...jesus that was funny 




Oman said:


> Yes, he is a normal human.  He has no superhuman strength, speed, or durability feats.  Just damn tough will and pain tolerance, which isn't necessarily superhuman.



oh so he's a normal human that's good to know the next time some one stabs me in my kidney..I guess I'll just set my insides on fire..then go and totally kick the shit out of them...



Oman said:


> As long as you don't bring up Lust's speed again.



lol..



Oman said:


> I assumed "large river" would be enough.



for what? throwing a dozens to possibly hundred of tons of steel around with water? bring that force against Roy? no..hell no



Oman said:


> I don't know if I want to argue with you about the size of the Fire Nation ship, because Katara pushing around a WW2 carrier sounds pretty cool.    She doesn't even need to move half that amount of water to exceed Roy, in that case.



i didn't say she particularly moved those ships in that scene it's hard to tell but certainly the point was to replicate that feat she needs an extremely wide massive river comparable to an ocean..if this fight took place in Buenos Aires at peurto Madeiro or something maybe but it isn't and she's not



Oman said:


> You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said she can do it in any setting.



it certainly came off that way



Oman said:


> I'm just talking about the specific feat.  The feat she pulled off is greater than Roy's largest feat.  Whining that she doesn't have enough water here to do it doesn't change that.



umm yes it does because it's a feat that requires special circumstances to perform and is thus not part of her standard moveset for vs 



Oman said:


> Why? If you're so sure it's quantifiable, then _quantify it._



so you can ignore it again?



Oman said:


> For reasons other than speed.



for everything 



Oman said:


> Nope, a whole season finale later they were fighting evenly again.



PIS considering the stuff he's done 



Oman said:


> Actually, Katara managed to get the upper hand on Azula and was trading blows with Zuko, not simply defending.



wow it's hilarious how the scans you posted actually disagree with you..now your acting like matta clatta thor and phenom 



Oman said:


> Being leader of the Order of the White Lotus doesn't mean one is universally better than the other members.  If so than you'd have to accept that Iroh can levitate with firebending just like Jeong Jeong.



how does this change the fact that every member of the white LOTUS order present at ba sing se would feed Azula her own insides?

more specifically how does this invalidate the fact that a much weaker more out of shape Iroh LOL'd her lighting..and she had to basically take him off guard?

Iroh would stomp her out in seconds..so would Bumi Pakku hell i'm not even sure she could take piandao with out major difficulties/injuries assuming she could take on a guy like that



Oman said:


> First of all, when fighting Azula, Katara had no help from Zuko, as he was on the ground twitching from his lightning wound at the time.  But sure, Azula was unhinged at the time.  This unhinged Azula was still battling Zuko pretty evenly.



she fought zuko before..Zuko a source of intense personal mania..and rage Zuko who pretty much invalidated her entire life out look this was comparable to Vegeta vs Goku and she was just as lunatic batfuck gone,..as Vegeta was during their first encounter

she was sloppy..she was fucked up in the head and the end was more of an animal then a human..in terms of just how badly degenerated she was



Oman said:


> None of those details invalidate Katara's lightning reaction feat.



umm yes it does..this was not a focused Azula we've seen what non-unhinged Azula can do and it's usually nearly impossible for gaang members to take her on solo with out PIS


----------



## Gunners (Oct 19, 2011)

> and yet we're clearly not dealing with a normal human by real world standards..considering his feats


Actually that is not clear. Display feats of him showing above human physical feats. Will power is not a factor and unquantifiable in these circumstances.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Gunners said:


> Actually that is not clear. Display feats of him showing above human physical feats. Will power is not a factor and unquantifiable in these circumstances.



so the other day I was watching the news and this soldier who got stabbed in the side of his mid section..poured some gunpowder in this wound after loosing an enormous amount of blood..and proceeded to use a lighter to burn/blast the wound until it was cauterized...I remember hearing about how he walked for about for several minutes inside a giant enemy facility..instead of y'know falling into a coma..or needing to spend weeks at an ICU...y'know he went on and took out an assassin that could regenerate even after loosing almost all the tissue on the body

our troops do this all the time it's why the American army is an unstoppable force.

seriously..Gunners claiming what Mustang did was normal..when in our history going back to the roman ages..there's maybe five or six similar circumstances documented..that aren't wild urban legends and 99 percent of them totally resulted in death not several days later..out and out with no apparent continued damage

my balls He's a normal human governed by RL human limits..


----------



## Kurou (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> Oh really?
> 
> 
> 
> "Being out to win" doesn't necessitate dropping habits like that.  Unless Mustang was never out to win at any time in the series.



Except Bloodlust is on by default, you're using and outdated version of CIS

here

explicit





> I call it subconscious because it's probably something he doesn't even notice himself in the heat of the moment.  If anything bloodlust would make him less likely to notice it.




Lol no


1) Something he doesn't notice?That's a pretty big assumption. So you're saying he doesn't notice when he lifts his arms in the air and snaps? I guess when he's eating he doesn't notice he lifts the fork/spoon to his mouth.


2) Bloodlust gets rid of stupid character traits so no.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 19, 2011)

Those are endurance/durability feats and making a long winded speech doesn't add to your point. In the future get straight to the point.


----------



## sephiroth138 (Oct 19, 2011)

are we assuming this is before roy saw the gate? because if its after, he doesn't need to use his flame alchemy. if it is, then he just causes a big enough explosion to kill her, and take out all the water she's bending at the moment.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Gunners said:


> Those are endurance/durability feats and making a long winded speech doesn't add to your point.



actually Gunners the 'long winded speech" as you put it..are exactly why her blood bending him for a win is bullshit and claiming He's a "normal human" is retarded




Gunners said:


> In the future get straight to the point.



humbly, I doth yield to the wisdom of former Phenom Brigader...with an ax to grind


----------



## Kurou (Oct 19, 2011)

sephiroth138 said:


> are we assuming this is before roy saw the gate? because if its after, he doesn't need to use his flame alchemy. if it is, then he just causes a big enough explosion to kill her, and take out all the water she's bending at the moment.



Whoa, flashback, you're still alive?


----------



## sephiroth138 (Oct 19, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> Whoa, flashback, you're still alive?



yea yea, i know ive bean gone along time, a friend got me back here, and lets just say i've learend alot i needed to, i admit, before i was a tad bit of a troll(don't start)


----------



## I3igAl (Oct 19, 2011)

Erm the Katara using water to block Roy mustangs flames wouldn't work at all. IIRC Roy uses alchemy to create  which he ignites at the same time.

Seeing how alchemy in FMA and chemistry work and seeing how alchemists have to aquire vast chemical knowledge, he could just take the hydrogen from the water to make his explosions. One could argue he never did that, but it would actually be much easier that way than shifting the molar ration of gases in the air. 
Using water against him would actually make him more potent IMO since he uses Oxyhydrogen.


----------



## I3igAl (Oct 19, 2011)

Also Edward did bullet time, didn't he? Envy fought Edward and the others in that snowy country. He wasn't totally blitzed by him. Envy couldn't react to Mustang's attacks at all. Conclusion Roy Mustang is faster than a bullet timing by an unquantifiable amount.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

I3igAl said:


> Erm the Katara using water to block Roy mustangs flames wouldn't work at all. IIRC Roy uses alchemy to create  which he ignites at the same time.
> 
> Seeing how alchemy in FMA and chemistry work and seeing how alchemists have to aquire vast chemical knowledge, he could just take the hydrogen from the water to make his explosions. One could argue he never did that, but it would actually be much easier that way than shifting the molar ration of gases in the air.
> Using water against him would actually make him more potent IMO since he uses Oxyhydrogen.



so she's basically throwing fuel at Roy? Hah!!



sephiroth138 said:


> yea yea, i know ive bean gone along time, a friend got me back here, and lets just say i've learend alot i needed to, i admit, before i was a tad bit of a troll(don't start)



you were in the first thread I ever posted in on the OBD..arguing Pein could beat magneto...

wow it's been ages...


----------



## Gunners (Oct 19, 2011)

> actually Gunners the 'long winded speech" as you put it..are exactly why her blood bending him for a win is bullshit and claiming He's a "normal human" is retarded


Your long winded speech isn't why Mustang would win the fight, he'd win because he'd get his attack off first. What you posted isn't impressive which is why you tried adding flare to the story, on its own burning a stab wound and soldiering doesn't show the physical capabilities you wish to portray. 

And as I said before, the feats you listed are related to his endurance/durability. If we were talking about Katara stabbing him in the fight, it would be of relevance. With regards to bloodbending it holds no relevance as it is not an attack that focuses on those traits. 



> humbly, I doth yield to the wisdom of former Phenom Brigader...with an ax to grind


If you're going to try and insult me be creative with it instead of relying on things you have read your seniors write.


----------



## Archreaper93 (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you were in the first thread I ever posted in on the OBD..arguing Pein could beat magneto...
> 
> wow it's been ages...



That was my first thread as well. Weren't we just talking about this in the "lolother forums" thread?


----------



## sephiroth138 (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> so she's basically throwing fuel at Roy? Hah!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yea it has, i ended up losing that argument, lol, sorry about that, i now know pein loses, and horibly


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Gunners said:


> Your long winded speech isn't why Mustang would win the fight, he'd win because he'd get his attack off first. What you posted isn't impressive which is why you tried adding flare to the story, on its own burning a stab wound and soldiering doesn't show the physical capabilities you wish to portray.



it's not impressive? lol okay dude..y'know aside form Comic Book peak humans..and near comic book peak humans..who are going by feats blatantly superior to avatar character in terms of physical stats human beings..are not capable of functioning at the high level Roy Mustang was capable of after such a beating



Gunners said:


> And as I said before, the feats you listed are related to his endurance/durability. If we were talking about Katara stabbing him in the fight, it would be of relevance. With regards to bloodbending it holds no relevance as it is not an attack that focuses on those traits.



it has extreme relevance the man is capable of functioning under extreme duress to the extent that a superhuman monster *could not get the drop on him* that alone means it's extremely unlikely bloodbending will be useful



Gunners said:


> If you're going to try and insult me be creative with it instead of relying on things you have read your seniors write.



my seniors ? I've been involved in vs debating for a long time i may have come late to the ball game here..but I'm not exactly a new kid on the block by any means..

I am not insulting you but you consistently act like you have a chip on your shoulder and it's getting tiring




sephiroth138 said:


> yea it has, i ended up losing that argument, lol, sorry about that, i now know pein loses, and horibly



well if that's really true then I wish you the best,  good luck redeeming yourself man 



jedijohn said:


> That was my first thread as well. Weren't we just talking about this in the "lolother forums" thread?



I think so...was it yours? I thought it was spartans


----------



## sephiroth138 (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> well if that's really true then I wish you the best,  good luck redeeming yourself man



thanks, i think i'll need it


----------



## Archreaper93 (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I think so...was it yours? I thought it was spartans



What I meant was, that was the first thread I posted in.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 19, 2011)

> it's not impressive? lol okay dude..y'know aside form Comic Book peak humans..and near comic book peak humans..who are going by feats blatantly superior to avatar character in terms of physical stats human beings..are not capable of functioning at the high level Roy Mustang was capable of after such a beating


How impressive the feat is is subjective which is why I went on to add some perspective. The feat isn't impressive enough to warrant the capabilities you're attributing to Roy. 


> it has extreme relevance the man is capable of functioning under extreme duress to the extent that a superhuman monster *could not get the drop on him* that alone means it's extremely unlikely bloodbending will be useful


No that doesn't lower the chance of blood bending working against him. Moving when wounded is different to moving when your body is physically restrained. Subtle word play is not going to help you. 



> my seniors ? I've been involved in vs debating for a long time i may have come late to the ball game here..but I'm not exactly a new kid on the block by any means..


It doesn't matter how long you have been around here, you continue to behave like a cabin boy.



> I am not insulting you but you consistently act like you have a chip on your shoulder and it's getting tiring


Insult: Speak to or treat with _disrespect_ or scornful abuse.

I don't respect you enough to carry a grudge so don't confuse me seeing you as an amusing joke with me 'having a chip on my shoulder'.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Gunners said:


> How impressive the feat is is subjective which is why I went on to add some perspective. The feat isn't impressive enough to warrant the capabilities you're attributing to Roy.



Katara has never bended some one capable of functioning under such types of duress 



Gunners said:


> No that doesn't lower the chance of blood bending working against him. Moving when wounded is different to moving when your body is physically restrained. Subtle word play is not going to help you.



it absolutely lowers the chance of it working against him, your talking about a person who has above human damage soak will power and focus..those are the perfect combinations for resisting such techs



Gunners said:


> It doesn't matter how long you have been around here, you continue to behave like *a cabin boy*.



riiiiigghhhtt



Gunners said:


> Insult: Speak to or treat with _disrespect_ or scornful abuse.



that would be the one presumptuously lecturing the other my response was to point how hilariously silly it was for you to even try that.



Gunners said:


> I don't respect you enough to carry a grudge so don't confuse me seeing you as an amusing joke with me 'having a chip on my shoulder'.



no I implied you had a bone to pick with the party line and this place in general and that's obvious just by your reactions. It's impossible for you to have a grudge against me..since we barely interact.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Oct 19, 2011)

Explain how continuing to fight after being stabbed amounts to resistance to someone  controlling your body? Are we going to start making exceptions for people who have high endurance and then associating that with a resistance to any sort of manipulation?

What does will power and focus have to do with someone literally taking control of the liquid in your body such as blood?

What in the world makes you think pain tolerance matters at all when those subjected to it aren't shown to be in that much pain at all in the first place?

Roy is a human he doesn't have above human anything, the more you continue to argue him being shown in any facet as superior to blatantly superhuman characters like Homunculi is when you begin wanking FMA.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Explain how continuing to fight after being stabbed amounts to resistance to someone  controlling your body? Are we going to start making exceptions for people who have high endurance and then associating that with a resistance to any sort of manipulation?



..not being stabbed suffering a debilitating wound that results in you loosing a near fatal amount of blood in a vital area then further damaging it..by cauterizing the wound with destructive alchemy

it would be physically impossible for most people to move much less cauterize much less proceed to fight a superhumanly fast opponent and win..

and you people are assuming I'm saying he's gonna lawl no cell it..I'm not saying that at all I'm saying (and it's dubious it even gets this far) is that he should based on his own insane will and physical toughness be able to resist *enough * to cause an explosion...he only needs to do this once to kill her


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ...you can't be serious after dodging and ignoring evidence and all the stunts you've pulled?



And again you avoid the question.  Why am I not surprised?  Prove Roy's eye-boiling is an exterior explosion and not an interior explosion.  Even if it was an exterior explosion, matter from the eyes would splatter outwards since there's nowhere else for it to go without resistance.



> oh so he's a normal human that's good to know the next time some one stabs me in my kidney..I guess I'll just set my insides on fire..then go and totally kick the shit out of them...



He's damn good for a normal human, sure.  But he's still a normal human in every area that might pertain to resisting bloodbending.  He can't resist any more than the Southern Raiders captain could have.

Anyways, I don't even know why I'm arguing with you over what the intent of _my_ OP was.  Katara has enough water present to do any feat she's demonstrated in the show.  Get over it.



> so you can ignore it again?



I can't have ignored something you've never posted.  Now post it.  This is like, the 5th time I've asked you.  Further refusal to quantify Mustang's speed will be treated as a concession that it's unquantifiable.



> PIS considering the stuff he's done



It happened.  Get over it.  The least you could do for this PIS argument is give feats from both Zuko and Katara that show that Zuko should have overwhelmed Katara.  But I already know you don't have any.



> wow it's hilarious how the scans you posted actually disagree with you..now your acting like matta clatta thor and phenom



Are you blind?  Katara powers through Azula's fireblasts to grab her right arm and left leg, lifting her up helplessly.  Azula would have been done for if Zuko hadn't cut in and broken Katara's whips.  Then Katara and Zuko trade blows with fire and water whips, neither having an advantage.

*snip White Lotus red herring asking me of things I never claimed*



> she fought zuko before..Zuko a source of intense personal mania..and rage Zuko who pretty much invalidated her entire life out look this was comparable to Vegeta vs Goku and she was just as lunatic batfuck gone,..as Vegeta was during their first encounter
> 
> she was sloppy..she was fucked up in the head and the end was more of an animal then a human..in terms of just how badly degenerated she was
> 
> umm yes it does..this was not a focused Azula we've seen what non-unhinged Azula can do and it's usually nearly impossible for gaang members to take her on solo with out PIS



And all this invalidates Katara's lighting reaction feat...how?



~Strike Man~ said:


> Except Bloodlust is on by default, you're using and outdated version of CIS
> 
> here
> 
> explicit



A wiki mainly run and written by users (not mods) of the OBD doesn't override mod rules for the section.



> Lol no
> 
> 1) Something he doesn't notice?That's a pretty big assumption. So you're saying he doesn't notice when he lifts his arms in the air and snaps? I guess when he's eating he doesn't notice he lifts the fork/spoon to his mouth.



I mean he doesn't notice as in it doesn't cross his mind specifically "I'm lifting my arm".  He's just thinking, "Fry this SOB".



> 2) Bloodlust gets rid of stupid character traits so no.



Again, Mustang was undeniably bloodlusted against Envy and he was throwing his arms all over the place.  If anything his was throwing his arms around _more_ than usual.



sephiroth138 said:


> are we assuming this is before roy saw the gate? because if its after, he doesn't need to use his flame alchemy. if it is, then he just causes a big enough explosion to kill her, and take out all the water she's bending at the moment.



Problem is that after he saw the gate he was _blind._  And Hawkeye isn't here to aim for him.



I3igAl said:


> Erm the Katara using water to block Roy mustangs flames wouldn't work at all. IIRC Roy uses alchemy to create  which he ignites at the same time.
> 
> Seeing how alchemy in FMA and chemistry work and seeing how alchemists have to aquire vast chemical knowledge, he could just take the hydrogen from the water to make his explosions. One could argue he never did that, but it would actually be much easier that way than shifting the molar ration of gases in the air.
> Using water against him would actually make him more potent IMO since he uses Oxyhydrogen.



I was wondering when someone would bring this up.  Yes, Roy can transmute water, and that's part of what gives him the edge in scenario 1.  But his transmutation happens before the spark/explosion, if only briefly, and the transmutation along the spark path is small-scale, so if Katara were to splash the spark it would still go out.



I3igAl said:


> Also Edward did bullet time, didn't he? Envy fought Edward and the others in that snowy country. He wasn't totally blitzed by him. Envy couldn't react to Mustang's attacks at all. Conclusion Roy Mustang is faster than a bullet timing by an unquantifiable amount.



You don't even know for sure that Ed can bullet time, and you're attributing that to both Envy and Mustang?  You'll need evidence.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Katara has never bended some one capable of functioning under such types of duress
> 
> it absolutely lowers the chance of it working against him, your talking about a person who has above human damage soak will power and focus..those are the perfect combinations for resisting such techs



Sure.  Katara also has never bloodbended a frog, doesn't mean she can't do it.  There is no link between handling that type of duress and bloodbending.  Bloodbending doesn't cause pain or internal injuries.  It just controls you.  Mustang has no way of resisting it any more than the Southern Raiders captain did.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> And again you avoid the question.  Why am I not surprised?  Prove Roy's eye-boiling is an exterior explosion and not an interior explosion.  Even if it was an exterior explosion, matter from the eyes would splatter outwards since there's nowhere else for it to go without resistance.



follow you're own damn advice and I'll be glad to do so



Oman said:


> He's damn good for a normal human, sure.  But he's still a normal human in every area that might pertain to resisting bloodbending.  He can't resist any more than the Southern Raiders captain could have.



I agree that he's not going to stand there look at her and go 'ermm wtf are you trying to do"  buuuuutt all he really needs to do is free up his thumb and middle finger to kill her..and nothing else..that isn't much of a stretch again assuming it even gets this far



Oman said:


> Anyways, I don't even know why I'm arguing with you over what the intent of _my_ OP was.  Katara has enough water present to do any feat she's demonstrated in the show. * Get over it.*



I have no problem with this in fact I'd be pissed at such a blatant attempt to curbstomp a decent character form a great series..if you didn't considering the gap between the two

but you need to be clearer man



Oman said:


> I can't have ignored something you've never posted.  Now post it.  This is like, the 5th time I've asked you.  Further refusal to quantify Mustang's speed will be treated as a concession that it's unquantifiable.



other posters provided the evidence and you ignore it



Oman said:


> It happened.  Get over it.  .



Batman got knocked the fuck out by a stereotypical five hundred lb neck bearded dork with a keyboard- we take this seriously now?



Oman said:


> Are you blind?  Katara powers through Azula's fireblasts to grab her right arm and left leg, lifting her up helplessly.  Azula would have been done for if Zuko hadn't cut in and broken Katara's whips.  Then Katara and Zuko trade blows with fire and water whips, neither having an advantage.



because Azula underestimated her..and it wasn't like Katara wasn't overwhelmed 



Oman said:


> *snip White Lotus red herring accusing me of things I never claimed*



you claimed Katara was in their tier because she punked a crazy version of a person that shot Iroh.

.


Oman said:


> And all this invalidates Katara's lighting reaction feat...how?



because Azula was not at her best..she was not functioning as she normally was...Katara took on a completely different person



Oman said:


> A wiki mainly run and written by users (not mods) of the OBD doesn't override mod rules for the section.



actually I'm fairly certain at least two mods are active members of that wiki and contribute to such articles..and that's the definition I'm certain ripped words for word from the rules..with the added bonus of experience posters insight or something

I mean he doesn't notice as in it doesn't cross his mind specifically "I'm lifting my arm".  He's just thinking, "Fry this SOB".




Oman said:


> Again, Mustang was undeniably bloodlusted against Envy and he was throwing his arms all over the place.  If anything his was throwing his arms around _more_ than usual.



he was blood lusted but suffering extreme emotional distress and CIS..he isn't here unless you change the OP again 



Oman said:


> Sure.  Katara also has never bloodbended a frog, doesn't mean she can't do it.  There is no link between handling that type of duress and bloodbending.  Bloodbending doesn't cause pain or internal injuries.  It just controls you.  Mustang has no way of resisting it any more than the Southern Raiders captain did.



she can blood bend a frog? she can blood bend radically different anatomy? i mean she can take water from plant matter..but apparently can't rip it right out of your blood..you don't know that..nor can you certainly say she can easily..control some one like him..or that she's even fast enough to do so before dying


----------



## Archreaper93 (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> Problem is that after he saw the gate he was _blind._  And Hawkeye isn't here to aim for him.



Pretty sure Mustang's eyes got healed by Marcoh, so he can see and do both flame and clap alchemy.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

jedijohn said:


> Pretty sure Mustang's eyes got healed by Marcoh, so he can see and do both flame and clap alchemy.



Marcoh offered to use the remainder of his stone to heal the guys eyes..but I can't recall if Mustang accepted or not..Marcoh made a pretty convincing argument though


----------



## sonic546 (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> *she can blood bend a frog? she can blood bend radically different anatomy? *i mean she can take water from plant matter..but apparently can't rip it right out of your blood..you don't know that..nor can you certainly say she can easily..control some one like him..or that she's even fast enough to do so before dying



Just playing devil's advocate here, but a frog's anatomy isn't _too_ different from our own.  Same goes for just about all tetrapods. So her bloodbending a frog isn't much of a stretch.

But to say she could bloodbend _any_ organism would be NLF.


----------



## Archreaper93 (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Marcoh offered to use the remainder of his stone to heal the guys eyes..but I can't recall if Mustang accepted or not..Marcoh made a pretty convincing argument though



I think he did.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2011)

sonic546 said:


> Just playing devil's advocate here, but a frog's anatomy isn't _too_ different from our own.  Same goes for just about all tetrapods. So her bloodbending a frog isn't much of a stretch.
> 
> But to say she could bloodbend _any_ organism would be NLF.



she might be able too but Hamas techs did have some limits..and Hama could blood bend animals but she was much more skilled at it than Katara


----------



## sephiroth138 (Oct 19, 2011)

well, i guess it all comes down to does katara know about mustangs power or not, because if she doesn't, then he could end it with one snap, if she does know, then it will be closer, but i don't think she could win. when she blood bends, all mustang has to do is snap still, it doesn't take that much effort, and if he started a fire early in the fight, he could use that instead.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> A wiki mainly run and written by users (not mods) of the OBD doesn't override mod rules for the section.




Except the wiki was originally started by an OBD mod and it used to be affiliated with NF until a certain incident. There was even a recruiting thread in the Meta-dome.

Not to mention OBD terms and their meanings are decided by OBD'ers.

Again, you're trying to use an outdated version.

And yes, as IWD stated I believe every OBD mod is a part of the wiki.





> I mean he doesn't notice as in it doesn't cross his mind specifically "I'm lifting my arm".  He's just thinking, "Fry this SOB".



Again, you're making more assumptions, that isn't how it works.





> Again, Mustang was undeniably bloodlusted against Envy and he was throwing his arms all over the place.  If anything his was throwing his arms around _more_ than usual.




So you didn't bother reading the links. Good to know.



> It should be noted that there are differences between natural bloodlust (the kind that exists within fictional continuities) and induced bloodlust (the kind used in a vs. thread). Induced bloodlust means the character is free from PIS, whereas naturally bloodlusted characters are still vulnerable to PIS, and are often hampered by it even more than level - headed characters. For example, they may simply attack recklessly, without planning or thinking, or using their powers creatively.






Seriously, while we discourage using the wiki as an absolute source of information and bible, we at least hope people use it as a reference, Especially for this sort of thing.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2011)

jedijohn said:


> Pretty sure Mustang's eyes got healed by Marcoh, so he can see and do both flame and clap alchemy.




Yep, you can see he got his vision back at the end.


----------



## Wan (Oct 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> follow you're own damn advice and I'll be glad to do so



So you're not providing the evidence?  Ok.



> I agree that he's not going to stand there look at her and go 'ermm wtf are you trying to do"  buuuuutt all he really needs to do is free up his thumb and middle finger to kill her..and nothing else..that isn't much of a stretch again assuming it even gets this far



Ok, _now_ you're actually coming up with a reasonable counter to bloodbending.  However, he still needs to be able to see her to aim -- kind of hard to do if your face is shoved in the ground.



> other posters provided the evidence and you ignore it



Concession accepted.  Moving on...



> Batman got knocked the fuck out by a stereotypical five hundred lb neck bearded dork with a keyboard- we take this seriously now?



False analogy.  "The Siege of the North" establishes that Katara is on Zuko's level and later evidence confirms that.  After "The Siege of the North" there's no evidence Zuko is significantly better than her.  If you disagree, post your evidence.



> because Azula underestimated her..and it wasn't like Katara wasn't overwhelmed



It happened.  Get over it.  And no, Katara was at no point overwhelmed by Zuko or Azula individually.  They needed to gang up on her to bring her down.



> you claimed Katara was in their tier because she punked a crazy version of a person that shot Iroh.



Nope, I didn't claim she was in their tier.  I pointed out that Azula shot Iroh, and it was _you_ who drew a conclusion from that feat.



> because Azula was not at her best..she was not functioning as she normally was...Katara took on a completely different person



That has nothing to do with the lightning feat, specifically.



> actually I'm fairly certain at least two mods are active members of that wiki and contribute to such articles..and that's the definition I'm certain ripped words for word from the rules..with the added bonus of experience posters insight or something



I don't see any mods on the changelist for those specific articles.



> he was blood lusted but suffering extreme emotional distress and CIS..he isn't here unless you change the OP again



Bloodlust _was_ the emotional distress.  Grief over Hughes wasn't effecting him, or else he would have hesitated when Envy assumed Hughes' appearance.



> she can blood bend a frog? she can blood bend radically different anatomy? i mean she can take water from plant matter..but apparently can't rip it right out of your blood..you don't know that..nor can you certainly say she can easily..control some one like him..or that she's even fast enough to do so before dying



Hama bloodbended rats, and after that had no problem bloodbending people.  So no, anatomy doesn't matter.  I can give examples all day though.  Can Katara bend dwarfs?  Black people?  Mexicans?  Politicians?  Little kids?  She's never bloodbended any of them, so by your logic, she can't bloodbend any of them!

Again, Mustang has no more way of resisting bloodbending than the Southern Raiders captain has.  Pain tolerance and will makes no difference, if you're restrained by more force than your muscles can give then there's nothing you can do about it.



jedijohn said:


> Pretty sure Mustang's eyes got healed by Marcoh, so he can see and do clap alchemy.



When Hohenheim healed Izumi, he said he couldn't fully heal her, even though he had a Philosopher's Stone, because he can't give her back what Truth had taken.  Probably was the same with Mustang.  Do you think Marcoh is more knowledgeable about medicinal alchemy and Philosopher's Stones than Hohenheim?



~Strike Man~ said:


> Except the wiki was originally started by an OBD mod and it used to be affiliated with NF until a certain incident. There was even a recruiting thread in the Meta-dome.
> 
> Not to mention OBD terms and their meanings are decided by OBD'ers.
> 
> ...



If OBD mods feel it's outdated they can change it.  Until then I go by the official forum rules.



> So you didn't bother reading the links. Good to know.
> 
> Seriously, while we discourage using the wiki as an absolute source of information and bible, we at least hope people use it as a reference, Especially for this sort of thing.



That talks about PIS -- behavior specific to a situation -- not CIS, which is behavior that a character would do in any situation.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 19, 2011)

Are people still going on with the blood bending stuff? The best and only time IIRC she did it on was that old woman, who was way passed her prime, while being boosted by the moon. She never did something like that against the likes of Mustang (who is at his prime). Saying any other is NLF. Not to mention she *still* has to do her water bending movements to get it working just like any other bending style. 

Again, Roy snaps and she blows up.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 19, 2011)

This is still going on because this weeks dumbass is grasping at straws. Lots and lots of straws.


----------



## sonic546 (Oct 19, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> This is still going on because this weeks dumbass is grasping at straws. Lots and lots of straws.



Why is he so mean to the straws?


----------



## Archreaper93 (Oct 19, 2011)

Oman said:


> When Hohenheim healed Izumi, he said he couldn't fully heal her, even though he had a Philosopher's Stone, because he can't give her back what Truth had taken.  Probably was the same with Mustang.  Do you think Marcoh is more knowledgeable about medicinal alchemy and Philosopher's Stones than Hohenheim?



No, I don't think Marcoh is more knowledgeable than Hohenheim, but I do think Hohenheim had a reason for not using his Philosopher's Stone. If he used his Philosopher's Stone to heal Izumi, he would have weakened himself, which would have been a terrible idea going up against Father.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> So you're not providing the evidence?  Ok.



you haven't



Oman said:


> Ok, _now_ you're actually coming up with a reasonable counter to bloodbending.  However, he still needs to be able to see her to aim -- kind of hard to do if your face is shoved in the ground.



why is his face on the ground? Why would it matter the man fought Father with limited support from an exhausted Risa..he can blow shit up in her general area



Oman said:


> Concession accepted.  Moving on...



and now your trolling 




Oman said:


> False analogy.  "The Siege of the North" establishes that Katara is on Zuko's level and later evidence confirms that.  After "The Siege of the North" there's no evidence Zuko is significantly better than her.  If you disagree, post your evidence.



Zuko redirected Ozai's lighting that single feat is superior to anything katara ever did...


[





Oman said:


> *It happened.  Get over it.*  And no, Katara was at no point overwhelmed by Zuko or Azula individually.  They needed to gang up on her to bring her down.



sorry but it does not work like that


Oman said:


> Nope, I didn't claim she was in their tier.  I pointed out that Azula shot Iroh, and it was _you_ who drew a conclusion from that feat.



in the context of you bringing it up it was a dishonest move 



Oman said:


> That has nothing to do with the lightning feat, specifically.



 



Oman said:


> I don't see any mods on the changelist for those specific articles.



and now your being ridiculous 



Oman said:


> Bloodlust _was_ the emotional distress.  Grief over Hughes wasn't effecting him, or else he would have hesitated when Envy assumed Hughes' appearance.



why would he hesitate when he knows it's the mans killer if anything that would enrage him even more



Oman said:


> Hama bloodbended rats, and after that had no problem bloodbending people.  So no, anatomy doesn't matter.  I can give examples all day though.  Can Katara bend dwarfs?  Black people?  Mexicans?  Politicians?  Little kids?  She's never bloodbended any of them, so by your logic, she can't bloodbend any of them!



Hama who is superior to Katara sure did..



Oman said:


> Again, Mustang has no more way of resisting bloodbending than the Southern Raiders captain has.  Pain tolerance and will makes no difference, if you're restrained by more force than your muscles can give then there's nothing you can do about it.



still waiting for that proof she can easily subdue people that resilient 




Oman said:


> When Hohenheim healed Izumi, he said he couldn't fully heal her, even though he had a Philosopher's Stone, because he can't give her back what Truth had taken.  Probably was the same with Mustang.  Do you think Marcoh is more knowledgeable about medicinal alchemy and Philosopher's Stones than Hohenheim?



and we're now arguing with _canon_ yup..it's obvious to all who have posted but you..the outcome..and now you;ve gone right off the reservation



~Strike Man~ said:


> This is still going on because this weeks dumbass is grasping at straws. Lots and lots of straws.



Bender ninja 2,0  even getting back up from a valiant crusader against the evil hivemind regs 



jedijohn said:


> No, I don't think Marcoh is more knowledgeable than Hohenheim, but I do think Hohenheim had a reason for not using his Philosopher's Stone. If he used his Philosopher's Stone to heal Izumi, he would have weakened himself, which would have been a terrible idea going up against Father.



I think he specifically said something like 'because what you did was a sin you must live with" or something

I would also venture a spine and eyeballs are vastly less complex then some ones lower intestines..uterus ovaries and all that


----------



## Archreaper93 (Oct 20, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I think he specifically said something like 'because what you did was a sin you must live with" or something
> 
> I would also venture a spine and eyeballs are vastly less complex then some ones lower intestines..uterus ovaries and all that



Those are also possibilities.


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

jedijohn said:


> No, I don't think Marcoh is more knowledgeable than Hohenheim, but I do think Hohenheim had a reason for not using his Philosopher's Stone. If he used his Philosopher's Stone to heal Izumi, he would have weakened himself, which would have been a terrible idea going up against Father.





He says he can't do it, because of her "sin". He can't undo what Truth has taken.  Mustang didn't exactly sin, but Truth didn't care, he still took Roy's sight.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> why is his face on the ground? Why would it matter the man fought Father with limited support from an exhausted Risa..he can blow shit up in her general area



Thanks for pointing out that he needed Risa to aim at such a distance without being able to see the target.



> Zuko redirected Ozai's lighting that single feat is superior to anything katara ever did...



Katara blocked Azula's lightning.  It's a single feat so it's no more valid for Zuko than it is Katara.



> sorry but it does not work like that
> 
> in the context of you bringing it up it was a dishonest move
> 
> ...



I think this is all supposed to be an argument but...there's not even the faintest shred of logic or reasoning!  At this point you're just whining and calling me wrong without supporting it.



> Hama who is superior to Katara sure did..



Regarding the technique itself, the mechanics of which don't change between people, it shows that anatomy doesn't matter.



> still waiting for that proof she can easily subdue people that resilient



Still waiting for a reason why resilience even matters.  Let's say Mustang was pinned down by iron bars that could easily hold down someone of his strength.  Would his resilience and willpower magically allow him to break free?



> and we're now arguing with _canon_ yup..it's obvious to all who have posted but you..the outcome..and now you;ve gone right off the reservation



Canon?  The one thing someone posted as "evidence" that Mustang got his sight back was a picture of him.  He wasn't even looking at a camera.



Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Are people still going on with the blood bending stuff? The best and only time IIRC she did it on was that old woman, who was way passed her prime, while being boosted by the moon. She never did something like that against the likes of Mustang (who is at his prime). Saying any other is NLF. Not to mention she *still* has to do her water bending movements to get it working just like any other bending style.
> 
> Again, Roy snaps and she blows up.


----------



## sonic546 (Oct 20, 2011)

Quit manhandling those poor straws you horrible monster.


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

sonic546 said:


> Quit manhandling those poor straws you horrible monster.



Oh no no no, ripping apart Watchdog's arguments is way too much fun to stop now.


----------



## sonic546 (Oct 20, 2011)

You've done no ripping apart of any kind.  You've actually been ignoring everyone's posts and deliberately trying to rig the fight in Katara's favor.

We've already shown that Mustang pretty much stomps.  Troll elsewhere.


----------



## sonic546 (Oct 20, 2011)

And now you resort to revenge negging.  Concession accepted.

+1 and inb4lock.


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

sonic546 said:


> You've done no ripping apart of any kind.  You've actually been ignoring everyone's posts and deliberately trying to rig the fight in Katara's favor.



Heh.  Watchdog has been trying to interpret the OP in ways that restrict Katara.  I didn't have any of it.  How is it "rigging" a fight to let a combatant fight at her full potential?  I'm not ignoring other peoples' posts.  Others have been a bit more lucid in their opinions of how Roy wins, which I don't necessarily disagree with.  Watchdog's arguments are just piss poor, frequently misrepresenting Katara's abilities and ascribing Roy superhuman traits when he has no such feats.  I shut him down every time, yet he keeps whining. _I_ could argue for Mustang's victory better than he is.



> And now you resort to revenge negging. Concession accepted.
> 
> +1 and inb4lock.



Don't give neg rep if you're going to whine about getting it in return.  Or do you not read the message "May you be fortunate enough to receive the same rep" that happens every time you rep someone?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Thanks for pointing out that he needed Risa to aim at such a distance without being able to see the target.



...when he was blind and against Father..who makes everything including the spirits in ATTLA look like shit...



Oman said:


> Katara blocked Azula's lightning.  It's a single feat so it's no more valid for Zuko than it is Katara.



... redirecting Ozai's lighting vs Azulas  



Oman said:


> I think this is all supposed to be an argument but...there's not even the faintest shred of logic or reasoning!  At this point you're just whining and calling me wrong without supporting it.



riight so that's a no you can't prove She has a chance in hell of bloodbending Roy enough to save her life, so that's a no you actually can't muster a proper counter



Oman said:


> Regarding the technique itself, the mechanics of which don't change between people, it shows that anatomy doesn't matter.



and yet Hama has better feats with it 



Oman said:


> Still waiting for a reason why resilience even matters.  Let's say Mustang was pinned down by iron bars that could easily hold down someone of his strength.  Would his resilience and willpower magically allow him to break free?



that's not a valid analogy actually it would be more "if Roy mustang was impaled by a foreign substance that was forcing him down would he have the resilience and will power allow him to force himself up despite it?

and the answer is yes...What Katara does is not something he can just shrug off..but it's something that in spite of it he should still be able to get off an attack that would kill her 



Oman said:


> Canon?  The one thing someone posted as "evidence" that Mustang got his sight back was a picture of him.  He wasn't even looking at a camera.



he would have had to retire by law due to his disability the man was promoted to brigadier general and put in control of supervising the reconstruction of Ishval obviously he had his sigh




Oman said:


> Oh no no no, ripping apart Watchdog's arguments is way too much fun to stop now.



oh your just delusional not trolling



Oman said:


> H
> Don't give neg rep if you're going to whine about getting it in return.  Or do you not read the message "May you be fortunate enough to receive the same rep" that happens every time you rep someone?



inane and hilariously inaccurate rantings about debate prowess aside...regarding this what you did was blatant revenge negging..you do not have the right to neg a person in return for being negged. That's not what the system was designed for


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ...when he was blind and against Father..who makes everything including the spirits in ATTLA look like shit...



Father wasn't directly affecting his aiming.  His lack of sight was.



> ... redirecting Ozai's lighting vs Azulas



You act like there's a significant difference?



> and yet Hama has better feats with it



...which she didn't have the first time she bloodbended a human.



> that's not a valid analogy actually it would be more "if Roy mustang was impaled by a foreign substance that was forcing him down would he have the resilience and will power allow him to force himself up despite it?



Except bloodbending doesn't involve impaling.



> and the answer is yes...What Katara does is not something he can just shrug off..but it's something that in spite of it he should still be able to get off an attack that would kill her



Maybe.  It depends on whether or not Katara takes control of his outstretched hand and shoves him into the ground ()



> he would have had to retire by law due to his disability the man was promoted to brigadier general and put in control of supervising the reconstruction of Ishval obviously he had his sigh



Where is this law stated?  If you post a scan stating it I'll concede the point right now.


----------



## sonic546 (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Where is this law stated?  If you post a scan stating it I'll concede the point right now.


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

Point conceded.  So Mustang can raise a stone wall to defend against Katara.  A considerable advantage.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Father wasn't directly affecting his aiming.  His lack of sight was.



yes..and against a vastly inferior enemy he'd have less trouble



Oman said:


> You act like there's a significant difference?



..are you serious 



Oman said:


> ...which she didn't have the first time she bloodbended a human.



are you implying she is superior to the tech creator?



Oman said:


> Except bloodbending doesn't involve impaling.



it involves penetration of a foreign energy source - Mustang has shown such concerns..do not hamper him over much



Oman said:


> Maybe.  It depends on whether or not Katara takes control of his outstretched hand and shoves him into the ground ()



why would his hand be outstretched..if he does not need too why are you comparing Roy to that failure?



Oman said:


> Where is this law stated?  If you post a scan stating it I'll concede the point right now.




welp...that settles that then 

Roy "the truth shall set you free' mustang vaporizes her all the more easily


----------



## Sylar (Oct 20, 2011)

This thread is painful to read through.

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped bothering trying to debate.


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yes..and against a vastly inferior enemy he'd have less trouble



Damaging Father?  Sure.  Hitting Father?  Considering Father was standing still, no, not at all.



> ..are you serious



Hang on.  Your initial problem with Katara's feat was that it puts her on Zuko's level...and now you're saying Zuko is above her even with the feat.  So what's the problem?



> are you implying she is superior to the tech creator?



Nope.



> it involves penetration of a foreign energy source - Mustang has shown such concerns..do not hamper him over much



Bloodbending doesn't "penetrate" anything.  It controls.



> why would his hand be outstretched..if he does not need too why are you comparing Roy to that failure?



Do you have short term memory loss?  You're asking me to repeat myself.  As for the captain, there's no reason to think he was a failure.  He was the leader of an elite unit of firebenders.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman doesn't pay attention to shit.
The fact that their is a law that he can't be blind and that in the same chapter there is the exact same angel in which he is blind to when he isn't.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Yep, you can see he got his vision back at the end.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 20, 2011)

Sylar said:


> This thread is painful to read through.
> 
> Thanks for reminding me why I stopped bothering trying to debate.



Insult their mothers and carry on.



I really should re-adopt this policy.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Damaging Father?  Sure.  Hitting Father?  Considering Father was standing still, no, not at all.



Father had quite a few defenses ya know



Oman said:


> Bloodbending doesn't "penetrate" anything.  It controls.



it's a foreign chi source entering the body of the victim and controlling them..



Oman said:


> *Do you have short term memory loss?  You're asking me to repeat myself.*



I'm asking you to provide a valid reason why he wouldn't other than "hurr durr that's a wiki def"



Oman said:


> there's no reason to think he was a failure.  He was the leader of an elite unit of firebenders.



we've seen elite firebenders they usually do something y'know useful as opposed to going down like a chump


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Oman doesn't pay attention to shit.
> The fact that their is a law that he can't be blind and that in the same chapter there is the exact same angel in which he is blind to when he isn't.



  I must apologize.  You already had posted that scan and I didn't see it.  I wasn't looking for spoiler tags because you seemed to be posting all your scans outside of them.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Father had quite a few defenses ya know



Sure.  That's why he wasn't damaged.



> it's a foreign chi source entering the body of the victim and controlling them..



Ok.



> I'm asking you to provide a valid reason why he wouldn't other than "hurr durr that's a wiki def"



I have and you're ignoring it.



> we've seen elite firebenders they usually do something y'know useful as opposed to going down like a chump



Are you saying bloodbending takes down elite firebenders like chumps?  Very astute.


----------



## sonic546 (Oct 20, 2011)

9 fucking pages...


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Sure.  That's why he wasn't damaged.



she'd also get hilariously blitzed





Oman said:


> ]Ok.



penetrating



Oman said:


> I have and you're ignoring it.



no I haven't I've done this dance long enough to know what aspects of CIS blood lust negates and what aspects it does not..like every one else here..you;re flat wrong



Oman said:


> Are you saying bloodbending takes down elite firebenders like chumps?  Very astute.



i'm saying he's a chump with zero feats I'm not impressed he's the yamcha of the elites...

Roy actually has quantifiable stuff


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> she'd also get hilariously blitzed



 That's non sequitur with what I said.



> penetrating



Ok, let me put it this way: the part Roy would have to resist doesn't involve penetrating.  Just controlling.



> no I haven't I've done this dance long enough to know what aspects of CIS blood lust negates and what aspects it does not..like every one else here..you;re flat wrong



It's a good thing that we've seen Roy bloodlusted in the series already. 



> i'm saying he's a chump with zero feats I'm not impressed he's the yamcha of the elites...
> 
> Roy actually has quantifiable stuff



Nope, Roy doesn't have strength feats that would put him above that guy.  If he does, please post them.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> :
> 
> 
> It's a good thing that we've seen Roy bloodlusted in the series already.



So the fact that you're still arguing this means you completely ignored my posts.



huh.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Ok, let me put it this way: the part Roy would have to resist doesn't involve penetrating.  Just controlling.



and I've proven he can resist enough to kill her..assuming it even gets that bad



Oman said:


> It's a good thing that we've seen Roy bloodlusted in the series already.



not by battledome standards you haven't



Oman said:


> Nope, Roy doesn't have strength feats that would put him above that guy.  If he does, please post them.



..Roy does not possess strength feats superior to a featless character? 



sonic546 said:


> 9 fucking pages...






~Strike Man~ said:


> So the fact that you're still arguing this means you completely ignored my posts.
> 
> 
> 
> huh.




if only Mods could eject posters from threads for being blatantly biased


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> So the fact that you're still arguing this means you completely ignored my posts.
> 
> 
> 
> huh.





No, you ignored my last post on the matter.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> and I've proven he can resist enough to kill her..assuming it even gets that bad



You've proven jack.



> not by battledome standards you haven't



By the standards on some wiki.  Not standards by the section rules.  If you and others want to play by those rules, fine.  I'm playing by the official section rules that are still pinned at the top of the section.



> ..Roy does not possess strength feats superior to a featless character?



Well, does he?  I'm waiting on some scans. Are you going to post them?


----------



## Kurou (Oct 20, 2011)

My Mistake




Oman said:


> If OBD mods feel it's outdated they can change it.  Until then I go by the official forum rules.




So in other words you're going to completely ignore OBD culture and practice in favor of outdated rules that suit your own agenda. Also good to know.





> That talks about PIS -- behavior specific to a situation -- not CIS, which is behavior that a character would do in any situation.





It was meant for both PIS and CIS. You would know this if you were an actual OBD'er. Did you even lurk before deciding to stroll into the OBD? because right about now it seems you're just shoving your head into your ass and shouting lalalalalala over and over again.


And if you really want to use the section rules stickied at the top because Mod's wrote them, you might want to do some research as they aren't even mods of the section anymore.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> You've proven jack.]



only in your eyes




Oman said:


> By the standards on some wiki.  Not standards by the section rules.  If you and others want to play by those rules, fine.  I'm playing by the official section rules that are still pinned at the top of the section.



those are the official rules good lord! Moderators are editors of that Wiki sweet jesus and it's obvious people are using that definition and no staff member has made an effort to correct that is telling.



Oman said:


> Well, does he?  I'm waiting on some scans. Are you going to post them?



are you..seriously fucking arguing that Mustang is not superior/stronger/faster then featless captain who got dismissed like a mook..

a guy with zero feats? Mustangs not stronger than him? are you fucking serious?


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> if only Mods could eject posters from threads for being blatantly biased





"I really think it could go either way (else I wouldn't make the thread). The majority of people in this thread thinks Roy would win, so I'm arguing for how Katara could win. Simply agreeing with the majority would be no fun. If the situation were reversed I'd be arguing for Mustang."

I'm not biased.



~Strike Man~ said:


> My Mistake



No problem.  I've made a bunch of mistakes myself in this thread.  One of which is claiming Mustang doesn't use guns.  I was browsing manga scans and I found that Mustang actually shot Lust at the beginning of their encounter in the Fifth Laboratory.



> So in other words you're going to completely ignore OBD culture and practice in favor of outdated rules that suit your own agenda. Also good to know.



Yup.  Those rules were here long before I came with my "agenda".



> It was meant for both PIS and CIS. You would know this if you were an actual OBD'er. Did you even lurk before deciding to stroll into the OBD? because right about now it seems you're just shoving your head into your ass and shouting lalalalalala over and over again.



That's your interpretation.  But I don't care what the wiki says one way or the other.



> And if you really want to use the section rules stickied at the top because Mod's wrote them, you might want to do some research as they aren't even mods of the section anymore.



Mods are free to edit or unpin that post, though, correct?



> are you..seriously fucking arguing that Mustang is not superior/stronger/faster then featless captain who got dismissed like a mook..
> 
> a guy with zero feats? Mustangs not stronger than him? are you fucking serious?














I'm not arguing anything right now.  Waiting on scans.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> No problem.  I've made a bunch of mistakes myself in this thread.  One of which is claiming Mustang doesn't use guns.




Nope, you're first mistake


was clicking this link











> Truefact: "P" is the same letter as "C".




True fact, you're still grasping at straws.




> Mods are free to edit or unpin that post, though, correct?




Why do that when we have the wiki. Seriously, There's a reason most people use the wiki as a reference, to avoid arguments like the one we're having.


But occasionally we get people like you. Well, more like once a week.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> I'm not biased.



your conduct for the last several pages laughably contradicts this, and if that was true (which it isn't) you'd be putting up the worse defense for Mustang I have ever seen 



Oman said:


> I'm not arguing anything right now.  Waiting on scans.



you realize that in this section you are literally not allowed to make the claim you made about a featless character?


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> Nope, you're first mistake
> 
> was clicking this link








> Why do that when we have the wiki. Seriously, There's a reason most people use the wiki as a reference, to avoid arguments like the one we're having.
> 
> But occasionally we get people like you. Well, more like once a week.



Considering the occasional noob in the OBD doesn't _know_ about the wiki, they only have the section rules to go by.  Maybe you should take it up with a mod to have the rules edited.



> you realize that in this section you are literally not allowed to make the claim you made about a featless character?



Doo di doo di di doo di doo...found those scans yet?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

This has transcended mere stubbornness and has moved into autism levels of stubbornness, good lord.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Considering the occasional noob in the OBD doesn't _know_ about the wiki,





That's why they should lurk. 





Also, to be fair, the mods don't have much authority in the wiki, because again, the terms and their meanings are decided by the OBD as a whole. Not a select few people.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Doo di doo di di doo di doo...found those scans yet?



and you;re still going? LOL...

protip: your the one who made the claim that Mustang was not laughably superior to a featless jobber..this is in clear violation of house standards no less....you made the claim *FUCKING BACK IT UP*

Burden of proof son- falls on you


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> and you;re still going? LOL...
> 
> protip: your the one who made the claim that Mustang was not laughably superior to a featless jobber..this is in clear violation of house standards no less....you made the claim *FUCKING BACK IT UP*
> 
> Burden of proof son- falls on you



Nope.  You're asking me to prove a negative.  When it comes to strength feats, as far as I can tell Mustang and the Southern Raiders captain are in the same boat -- featless.  The fact that Roy has a plethora of fire alchemy feats doesn't affect his strength.

That is, unless you've got scans with feats.  But you seem allergic to posting scans, maybe someone else can do it for you?


----------



## Commander Vimes (Oct 20, 2011)

This should have ended 6 or 7 pages ago...


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

DrStrangeRage said:


> This should have ended 6 or 7 pages ago...



And without you we wouldn't be on page 10.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Nope.  You're asking me to prove a negative.  When it comes to strength feats, as far as I can tell Mustang and the Southern Raiders captain are in the same boat -- *featless. * The fact that Roy has a plethora of fire alchemy feats doesn't affect his strength.
> 
> That is, unless you've got scans with feats.  But you seem allergic to posting scans, maybe someone else can do it for you?






> as far as I can tell Mustang and the Southern Raiders captain are in the same boat -- *featless. *


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

Hmm sorry.  That's a gif of a bunch of s, not a scan of a strength feat of Mustang's.  You're getting there though.


----------



## Commander Vimes (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> And without you we wouldn't be on page 10.



This thread was heading for 10 one way or another. Your argument is nonsensical and this thread SHOULD have already died. Katara has a small chance of winning scenario 2. Maybe at a rate of 1 or 2/10.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Hmm sorry.  That's a gif of a bunch of s, not a scan of a strength feat of Mustang's.  You're getting there though.


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> image



Well that's an image with a couple panels.  You're making progress!

Hmm...since conceding that Roy can use circle-free alchemy I should change my own estimations of the fight.  I'd say 9/10 times Roy wins scenario 1, only losing if Katara manages to somehow splash him and disable his spark gloves.  Scenario 2 is a toss up, 5/10.  I originally gave Katara the edge since she has ways of defending against fire alchemy while Roy has none against bloodbending, but hiding behind an earth wall would probably stop Katara from bloodbending him.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2011)

Roy can still use his flame alchemy even when wet due to his new power, but it's much more of a hassle.


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

Sure, he can use alchemy to create flammable material, but if his gloves are wet he has no way to make a spark.


----------



## superbatman86 (Oct 20, 2011)

Yea ignore the wik.Try using it in a thread and see how well that goes over.You'll be bitched at from the get go.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Sure, he can use alchemy to create flammable material, but if his gloves are wet he has no way to make a spark.



No he can create a spark anytime he wants with this new ablity.
Do remember what a spark is?
Friction, he can rearrange natural elements to create friction.
He only needs a spark and a sigil and with that ablity he is the sigil.

Actually on that matter he has a lighter on him


----------



## Archreaper93 (Oct 20, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> No he can create a spark anytime he wants with this new ablity.
> Do remember what a spark is?
> Friction, he can rearrange natural elements to create friction.
> He only needs a spark and a sigil and with that ablity he is the sigil.
> ...



To be fair, that was Havoc's lighter, not Roy's.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2011)

jedijohn said:


> To be fair, that was Havoc's lighter, not Roy's.



Did he ever give it back?
I don't remember.
Still fairly easy to create sparks not as fast though.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 20, 2011)

Splashing his gloves won't make them useless. Apparently the reason he's useless in the rain is because the humidity makes it impossible to produce a spark.





> While Mustang's Flame Alchemy cannot be used on rainy days because the humidity makes it impossible for his gloves to produce sparks, it becomes clear that water itself does not make the Colonel entirely as "useless" as his subordinates assume. Using the transmutation circles on his gloves, Roy is able to separate oxygen atoms from the hydrogen atoms in water molecules, isolating the two combustible gases. Though this method can only be used when a large quantity of water is present in a relatively closed-off space (and not in the rain where the air is open and separating hydrogen and oxygen for the purpose of combustion would pose far too much danger to anyone in the vicinity), with an outside source of ignition such as a cigarette lighter or a match, Roy can produce extremely powerful, localized explosions.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> Well that's an image with a couple panels.  You're making progress!
> 
> Hmm...since conceding that Roy can use circle-free alchemy I should change my own estimations of the fight.  I'd say 9/10 times Roy wins scenario 1, only losing if Katara manages to somehow splash him and disable his spark gloves.  Scenario 2 is a toss up, 5/10.  I originally gave Katara the edge since she has ways of defending against fire alchemy while Roy has none against bloodbending, but hiding behind an earth wall would probably stop Katara from bloodbending him.



well i commend the near autistic nature of your stubborness but when multiple posters have debunked everything you've presented and your only ally in this thread..Matta is a known troll and one of the most dishonest posters on this forum..you should give up

or leave the OBD entirely..either one really


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> No he can create a spark anytime he wants with this new ablity.
> Do remember what a spark is?
> Friction, he can rearrange natural elements to create friction.
> He only needs a spark and a sigil and with that ablity he is the sigil.
> ...



That's Havoc's lighter.  Since he didn't have a lighter before there's no reason to think he carried a lighter around afterwards.  There's no evidence he, or anyone else, can use circle-free alchemy to create friction enough to make sparks.  Unless you have scans, that is.  His only feats with circle-free alchemy are his usual gas transmutation and raising an earth wall.



~Strike Man~ said:


> Splashing his gloves won't make them useless. Apparently the reason he's useless in the rain is because the humidity makes it impossible to produce a spark.




*Spoiler*: __ 








His gloves were useless when wet, or else he wouldn't have bothered using Havoc's lighter.  He can still transmute when wet, but his gloves can't make sparks.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> That's Havoc's lighter.  Since he didn't have a lighter before there's no reason to think he carried a lighter around afterwards.  There's no evidence he, or anyone else, can use circle-free alchemy to create friction enough to make sparks.  Unless you have scans, that is.  His only feats with circle-free alchemy is his usual gas transmutation and raising an earth wall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He can dry his gloves by clapping his hands you dip.
I don't have to prove anything as long as it falls under equivalent exchange.


----------



## Gone (Oct 20, 2011)

1) Roy

2) Whoever reacts first. Roy could kill her with a single blow, but once she gets him under her blood bending control theres not much he can do either.


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> He can dry his gloves by clapping his hands you dip.



And he didn't in the situation with Lust because...



> I don't have to prove anything as long as it falls under equivalent exchange.



Which you haven't proved in the first place.


----------



## Gone (Oct 20, 2011)

I think its funny how butthurt some people here are getting.

*Sits back with popcorn*

Dont mind me...


----------



## Archreaper93 (Oct 20, 2011)

Oman said:


> And he didn't in the situation with Lust because...



Because he didn't see the gate by then.


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

jedijohn said:


> Because he didn't see the gate by then.



He still had the transmutation circle on his hand, but didn't use it for that.  Suggesting Roy's alchemy can't be applied that way. Unless circle-free alchemy is now an excuse to give alchemists whatever power they want out of their ass...sort of a no-limits fallacy.


----------



## Level7N00b (Oct 20, 2011)

This thread is still open?


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 20, 2011)

Glad I got to see this before it closes


----------



## sephiroth138 (Oct 20, 2011)

yep, shot yourself in the foot with that one, couldn't roy just transmute all the water and blow up katara with her own element? and also couldn't he use that to dry his gloves off?


----------



## Wan (Oct 20, 2011)

sephiroth138 said:


> yep, shot yourself in the foot with that one, couldn't roy just transmute all the water and blow up katara with her own element? and also couldn't he use that to dry his gloves off?



To an extent, yes, and apparently no.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 21, 2011)

so let's recap..in a stellar moment of catastrophic fail Sephiroth manages to run in here and debate better then you..after a milti year long hiatus and having previously been a major troll

you've lied..you've argued against canon dismissed valid definitions and distorted evidence (all of these things posters have been banned for btw) you've also..claimed Mustang is not superior to a guy with zero feats

yeah,..consummate fucking troll action here..this thread was over on page 1 and it's shockingly painful to see this nonsense continue now to page _11_


----------



## Wan (Oct 21, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you've lied..



 When?



> you've argued against canon



And conceded when I was proven wrong.



> dismissed valid definitions



Official section rules > a wiki any butthurt member can edit.



> and distorted evidence



No, you've put words in my mouth that I never said.



> you've also..claimed Mustang is not superior to a guy with zero feats



Because Mustang has zero feats in the strength department as well.  Unless you've finally found those scans?  I'll concede right now if you find a really fantastic strength feat on the part of Mustang.

Need I point out that you've repeatedly misremembered events from Avatar, not bothered to post any feats for Mustang despite being repeatedly asked, claimed something to be quantifiable without actually, y'know, _quantifying_ it, and made up resistance abilities for Mustang that he's never displayed. 



> yeah,..consummate fucking troll action here..this thread was over on page 1 and it's shockingly painful to see this nonsense continue now to page _11_



Thanks for helping it get here.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 21, 2011)

umm misremembered? I corrected you on errors as for my not posting evidence I don't think you have a concept of the burden of proof do you? you're the one making claims that contradict established precedence and well actual feats it's not up to me to do homework for you.

I like that though..you have shown yourself willing to reply and reply it's a nice sign of trolling that your basically willing to continue this so long as some one posts.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 21, 2011)

Just get a mod to lock this it's a waste of space.


----------



## Wan (Oct 21, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> umm misremembered? I corrected you on errors





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> she needs the moon for that *and Azula if I recall resisted it..briefly*





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> *I'm pretty sure those fights consisted of Azula and Zuko's fire being parried or deflected and were largely defensive actions on Kataras part*



^^Both false.



> as for my not posting evidence I don't think you have a concept of the burden of proof do you? you're the one making claims that contradict established precedence and well actual feats it's not up to me to do homework for you.



My claim is that Katara can bloodbend Roy without problem, based on the fact that she bloodbended the Southern Raiders captain who was a soldier the same as Roy (possibly even better physically, since the captain was trained in martial arts and Roy wasn't.)  So there's my feat and my evidence.  Point proven, unless you can show that Roy physically has a strength advantage over the Southern Raiders soldier with feats.



> I like that though..you have shown yourself willing to reply and reply it's a nice sign of trolling that your basically willing to continue this so long as some one posts.



And yet you keep coming back to reply as well.  So by your own definition wouldn't you be a troll?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> ^^Both false.]



ermm no i misremembered one you lied about the rest though



Oman said:


> My claim is that Katara can bloodbend Roy without problem, based on the fact that she bloodbended the Southern Raiders *captain who was a soldier the same as Roy (possibly even better physically, since the captain was trained in martial arts and Roy wasn't.)  So there's my feat and my evidence.*  Point proven, unless you can show that Roy physically has a strength advantage over the Southern Raiders soldier with feats.



you're not understanding this you cannot make that claim because the captain had zero feats in the series...Bending a featless jobber is not a valid feat to be presented as evidence 



Oman said:


> And yet you keep coming back to reply as well.  So by your own definition wouldn't you be a troll?



there's a huge difference between dismissing definitions taken from and on a location run partly by moderators..and constantly dismissing Roy's feats and anything you dislike to Wank (you have shown a clear biased for ATTLA) and you absolutely refuse to depart this thread clearly out of spite *despite multiple posters now demanding it's end*

you haven't been banned yet..or ejected from this section ; while this state of being continues I'm not allowing a troll to troll..your just in here responding to anything..refusing to yield because of some perceived hiveminded biased or what ever

fucking comparing the two 



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Just get a mod to lock this it's a waste of space.



I already reported this disaster

mods must be on vacation


----------



## Wan (Oct 21, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ermm no i misremembered one you lied about the rest though



You're the one lying now.



How is grabbing Azula and holding her helplessly in the air "largely defensive actions"?




> you're not understanding this you cannot make that claim because the captain had zero feats in the series...Bending a featless jobber is not a valid feat to be presented as evidence



_Roy has zero strength feats as well._  What applies to one featless dude applies to another featless dude.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> You're the one lying now.
> 
> 
> 
> How is grabbing Azula and holding her helplessly in the air "largely defensive actions"?



we went over this retard it was PIS and Azula underestimated her every other time they fought including when she was apeshit..gaang members rarely could take her on solo



Oman said:


> _Roy has zero strength feats as well._  What applies to one featless dude applies to another featless dude.



Roy has an entire mangafull of feats..he is not featless this includes the strength will and fortitude to take inhuman amounts of damage. to treat a bullet timer like an amateur and so on

you cannot compare some one like that to a featless jobber

edit AHAHAH OH SHIT..committing rep abuses twice in a row now? wooowww class act you are bud


----------



## Wan (Oct 21, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> we went over this retard it was PIS and Azula underestimated her every other time they fought including when she was apeshit..gaang members rarely could take her on solo



"Largely defensive actions" was still a lie.  It wasn't plot induced stupidity because, you know what?  Azula still won.  The plot was on her side, if anything.  And I think any underestimation of Katara by Azula would have stopped at this




which happened moments before.



> Roy has an entire mangafull of feats..he is not featless this includes the strength will and fortitude to take inhuman amounts of damage.



I'm strictly talking about strength.  Post feats.  You make the claim, back it up.



> to treat a bullet timer like an amateur and so on



Here we go again.  To prove Mustang was "treating a bullet timer like an amateur" you first have to prove that person was a bullet timer. Should be simple, just post the feats.  But at this point I have a feeling you run the risk of stroke when you look up manga scans.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> "Largely defensive actions" was still a lie.  It wasn't plot induced stupidity because, you know what?  Azula still won.  The plot was on her side, if anything.  And I think any underestimation of Katara by Azula would have stopped at this



it's a lie when I haven't seen the series in years and got one or two details wrong  



Oman said:


> which happened moments before.



I'm not sure what's more retarded you spamming these screen caps pulling a Matta while doing so...or you claiming Azula needed PIS to beat Katara



Oman said:


> I'm strictly talking about strength.  Post feats.  You make the claim, back it up.



prove that featless mook is as strong or stronger than Roy..oh yeah you can't




Oman said:


> Here we go again.  To prove Mustang was "treating a bullet timer like an amateur" you first have to prove that person was a bullet timer. Should be simple, just post the feats.  But at this I have a feeling you run the risk of stroke when you look up manga scans.



again with this your the one calling bullshit on the claim..not me

you have to be a dupe of benderninja


----------



## Wan (Oct 21, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> it's a lie when I haven't seen the series in years and got one or two details wrong



You called me a liar for saying you're wrong when I had already posted the screens disproving you.



> I'm not sure what's more retarded you spamming these screen caps



Yeah, I'm actually posting evidence...hard concept to grasp, I know.



> pulling a Matta while doing so...or you claiming Azula needed PIS to beat Katara



 When did I say Azula needed PIS to beat Katara?  You were the one saying Katara needed PIS to get the upper hand on Azula.



> prove that featless mook is as strong or stronger than Roy..oh yeah you can't



He doesn't need to be stronger, just on the same strength level. You are the one who needs to prove Roy is stronger.  With feats.  That you haven't found yet.



> again with this your the one calling bullshit on the claim..not me



Um...you're right, I am calling BS.  Not that I'm expecting you to actually back up your claim.



> you have to be a dupe of benderninja



If you can't attack the argument, attack the man.  Figures.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> You called me a liar for saying you're wrong when I had already posted the screens disproving you.



 no you didn't we had a lengthly discussion involving those screen caps which you dismissed



Oman said:


> Yeah, I'm actually posting evidence...hard concept to grasp, I know.



evidence that sinks battleships! quit team killing! Seriously now why are you using BN's favorite ATTLA site? seriously..you a dupe?


Oman said:


> When did I say Azula needed PIS to beat Katara?  You were the one saying Katara needed* PIS to get the upper hand on Azula*.



which she did



Oman said:


> He doesn't need to be stronger, just on the same strength level. You are the one who needs to prove Roy is stronger.  With feats.  That you haven't found yet.



how the fuck am I supposed to prove Roy's stronger or weaker then a character with ZERO FUCKING SHOWINGS...jesus christ we literally have no clue how strong he is..



Oman said:


> Um...you're right, I am calling BS.  Not that I'm expecting you to actually back up your claim.



so you actually expect the other side to do your job for you? wow you have passed straw graspery and entered full on trolling



Oman said:


> *If you can't attack the argument, *attack the man.  Figures.



we've all done a bang up job doing that Oman..that you are still here still refusing to stop despite numerous people mocking you for continuing merely proves what type of person you are..and exactly the type of stuff you'll be gracing us with..when ever you come this way


----------



## Wan (Oct 21, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> no you didn't we had a lengthly discussion involving those screen caps which you dismissed



You claimed Katara was on the defense mostly.  She wasn't, and I proved it, despite your whining about PIS.  Later you claimed I was lying to call you false, which is a lie in itself.  Katara was not mostly on the defense, she got the upper hand on Azula.



> evidence that sinks battleships! quit team killing! Seriously now why are you using BN's favorite ATTLA site? seriously..you a dupe?



Because it's the single largest Avatar fan site and looking up screencaps is the only option other than diggging through a morass of AMVs on Youtube, since Youtube automatically takes down direct scenes.  I think I did see other people using it when I was browsing other Avatar vs threads, that may be where I got it from.



> which she did



Nope, because the plot wasn't on Katara's side.  She ultimately lost.  PIS had nothing to do with it.



> how the fuck am I supposed to prove Roy's stronger or weaker then a character with ZERO FUCKING SHOWINGS...*jesus christ we literally have no clue how strong he is*..



Same goes for Roy, since he has no strength feats.

Just one.  Just _one scan_ is all it would take...



> so you actually expect the other side to do your job for you? wow you have passed straw graspery and entered full on trolling



Do...my job?  Why is it _my_ job to back up _your_ claim?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 21, 2011)




----------



## Wan (Oct 21, 2011)

Hmm.  I just noticed some things from the wiki pages on PIS and CIS.

First of all, from the PIS page:

"It should be noted that invoking PIS too often can lead to incredibly biased arguments, when you simply discount any feat that undermines your position, under the guise of PIS. In this case, the term IDLI, IDH ("I don't like it, it didn't happen") is more appropriate than PIS."

Since the plot had nothing to do with Katara getting the upper hand on Azula, it's just discounting the feat because Watchdog DLI, IDH.

Secondly, _guess what's listed as an example of CIS?_

"- Katara not using her blood - bending to kill people"

So, according to the wiki, Katara can kill people with bloodbending and if CIS is gone she won't hesitate to do it!  

I'll leave it up to you guys.  Pick your poison from here on out.


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## Commander Vimes (Oct 21, 2011)

I stopped following the thread, but I thought the point was that he could kill her before she would be able to bloodbend him.


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## hammer (Oct 21, 2011)

since when did she show the ability to use it on anyone not an old ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) under a fullmoon let alone kill anybody with it  also its possible to regain what was lost at the gate hohihem was just being a doucey ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 21, 2011)

funny how  people claim pis/cis in order to dismiss feats in one thread, but when it gets done to them in another for more valid reasons they cry about. lol.  round and round it goes, people being hypocrites but never saying so. Dare to tell the truth!

Edit: The above being said, I though it was pretty clear Kata wasn't on Azula's level of physicality, and that she shouldn't be able to best katara in a straight fight. Azula schooling the gang without powers, being ty lee's better, and schooling the gang and zuko on multiple occasions speaks for itself...


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 21, 2011)

hammer said:


> since when did she show the ability to use it on anyone not an old ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) under a fullmoon let alone kill anybody with it  also its possible to regain what was lost at the gate hohihem was just being a doucey ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)



Otherwise edward and al would still be armless and bodyless


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> You claimed Katara was on the defense mostly.  She wasn't, and I proved it, despite your whining about PIS.  Later you claimed I was lying to call you false, which is a lie in itself.  Katara was not mostly on the defense, she got the upper hand on Azula.



and yet she it was directly because she underestimated katara every single time Azula took on a Gaang member after and before it was clear how woefully below they were

uh oh..



Oman said:


> Because it's the single largest Avatar fan site and looking up screencaps is the only option other than diggging through a morass of AMVs on Youtube, since Youtube automatically takes down direct scenes.  I think I did see other people using it when I was browsing other Avatar vs threads, that may be where I got it from.



protip taking up Benderninjas cause does not for a good poster make



Oman said:


> Nope, because the plot wasn't on Katara's side.  She ultimately lost.  PIS had nothing to do with it.



PIS does not solely rule in favor of the winner genius ;' Batman got knocked out by a dork with a keyboard Superman by a fence post...these are clear examples of PIS and it's the plot going out of it's way to shit on some one

Azula was consistently portrayed as requiring two or more people to deal with unless you happened to be a white lotus member



Oman said:


> Same goes for Roy, since he has no strength feats.



no we know exactly what Roy is capable of we've spent ten more pages than was necessary to prove this



Oman said:


> Do...my job?  Why is it _my_ job to back up _your_ claim?



yep total failure to grasp even the simplest concepts or faining ignorance

I think we got ourselves some one who embodies all the negative debate styles used in the OBD here folks



Oman said:


> Hmm.  I just noticed some things from the wiki pages on PIS and CIS.
> 
> First of all, from the PIS page:
> 
> ...



uh oh he's using the wiki! Shit just got real here folks!



hammer said:


> since when did she show the ability to use it on anyone not an old ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) under a fullmoon let alone kill anybody with it  a



Oman has categorically failed to explain this;the only people she successfully blood bended was a Crazy Azula suffering from extreme amounts of CIS was on the verge of pure retardation...an old women and a featless mook with nothing to show for him...

yet somehow she's succeeded here oh and featless mooks are stronger than Roy now too


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## Wan (Oct 21, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> and yet she it was directly because she underestimated katara every single time Azula took on a Gaang member after and before it was clear how woefully below they were



Wrong.  Katara nearly sliced off Azula's face just moments before.  Azula would have had to be stupid to underestimate Katara after that, and Azula's not stupid.



> PIS does not solely rule in favor of the winner genius ;' Batman got knocked out by a dork with a keyboard Superman by a fence post...these are clear examples of PIS and it's the plot going out of it's way to shit on some one



Batman got knocked out?  Sounds worse than what happened to Azula.  Anyways, the plot had nothing to do with Katara punking Azula for a moment.  It was part of the fight, get over it.  Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen.



> Azula was consistently portrayed as requiring two or more people to deal with unless you happened to be a white lotus member



Except, you know, against Katara.



> no we know exactly what Roy is capable of we've spent ten more pages than was necessary to prove this



Not with strength.  Roy has no strength feats, period. In the whole thread not a single strength feat of Roy's has been posted.



> yep total failure to grasp even the simplest concepts or faining ignorance
> 
> I think we got ourselves some one who embodies all the negative debate styles used in the OBD here folks



Now I'm starting to think you have an allergy to answering questions as well as posting scans.



> uh oh he's using the wiki! Shit just got real here folks!



...so you don't disagree that, going by the wiki, Katara owning Azula was not PIS?



> Oman has categorically failed to explain this;the only people she successfully blood bended was a Crazy Azula suffering from extreme amounts of CIS was on the verge of pure retardation...an old women and a featless mook with nothing to show for him...



Are you going senile?  Katara never bloodbended Azula.  This was pointed out to you, like, back on page 2.  I mean, I'd like for Katara to have that feat, but she doesn't.  Get your act together.



> yet somehow she's succeeded here oh and featless mooks are stronger than Roy now too



Stop the strawman.  I'm not claiming he's stronger.  I'm saying that, since _both_ are featless regarding strength, they can be considered relatively the same strength.  There is no reason to think Roy can resist something with strength that the Southern Raiders captain failed to resist.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> Wrong.  Katara nearly sliced off Azula's face just moments before.  Azula would have had to be stupid to underestimate Katara after that, and Azula's not stupid.



her raging ego maniac mental instability that got progressively worse over the series disagrees with you



Oman said:


> Batman got knocked out?  Sounds worse than what happened to Azula.  Anyways, the plot had nothing to do with Katara punking Azula for a moment.  It was part of the fight, get over it.  Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen.



when a combat feat or feat in general contradicts the characters over all history it is invalid..Azula struggling with Katara at that point is bullshit PIS and not valid under that and the low end showings exemptions



Oman said:


> Except, you know, against Katara.



except y'know not valid



Oman said:


> Not with strength.  Roy has no strength feats, period. In the whole thread not a single strength feat of Roy's has been posted.



right because a guy who needs to burn his insides to prevent himself from dying then proceeds to take on a superhumanly fast and strong opponent and utterly demolish her..isn't strong



Oman said:


> Now I'm starting to think you have an allergy to answering questions as well as posting scans.



you have no concept of burden of proof



Oman said:


> ...so you don't disagree that, going by the wiki, Katara owning Azula was not PIS?



your dishonest interpretation of the wiki



Oman said:


> Are you going senile?  Katara never bloodbended Azula.  This was pointed out to you, like, back on page 2.  I mean, I'd like for Katara to have that feat, but she doesn't.  Get your act together.



hmm I rewatched the fight seems like she didn't but you did totally misrepresent Kataras speed



Oman said:


> Katara blocking Azula's lightning as proof of her own speed.





Oman said:


> How is Katara blocking Azula's lightning not solid evidence,





Oman said:


> Katara moved the water after Azula launched the lightning, so it wasn't aim dodging.



 starting at 145: Katara had two full seconds of Azulas charge time too prepare to block her lighting she was point blank on a source of water. there is nothing impressive about that feat at all : idiotic music aside Azula constantly displays superiority to both fighters until idiocy on her part had her get into close range with a god damn waterbender 


you cannot present this as a speed feat it isn't meanwhile it takes Roy a fraction of a second to blow some one the fuck up katara is not reacting to that at all




Oman said:


> Stop the strawman.  I'm not claiming he's stronger.  I'm saying that, since _both_ are featless regarding strength, they can be considered relatively the same strength.  There is no reason to think Roy can resist something with strength that the Southern Raiders captain failed to resist.



so basically either: your going to constantly reply nonstop until what 2012? Despite multiple posters demanding you stop because this has moved into parody land..or you'll get banned for obvious (to every one but you) misconduct


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## Wan (Oct 21, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> her raging ego maniac mental instability that got progressively worse over the series disagrees with you



Which was nowhere near in effect at the time. In the same episode she overthrew a government from within, all but won the war, and killed Aang instead of just standing in awe of the Avatar State and getting her butt whooped.



> when a combat feat or feat in general contradicts the characters over all history it is invalid..Azula struggling with Katara at that point is bullshit PIS and not valid under that and the low end showings exemptions



That fits the definition of jobbing more than PIS.  But if you're claiming that it's inconsistent with Katara's history, prove it.



> right because a guy who needs to burn his insides to prevent himself from dying then proceeds to take on a superhumanly fast and strong opponent and utterly demolish her..isn't strong



Indeed.  No part of that involved superhuman physical strength.  Just force of will and resilience.  Which isn't strength.



> you have no concept of burden of proof



What, you have to prove something and can't make unfounded claims?  Perish the thought!



> your dishonest interpretation of the wiki



Because you say so?



> hmm I rewatched the fight seems like she didn't but you did totally misrepresent Kataras speed
> 
> starting at 145: Katara had two full seconds of Azulas charge time too prepare to block her lighting she was point blank on a source of water. there is nothing impressive about that feat at all : idiotic music aside Azula constantly displays superiority to both fighters until idiocy on her part had her get into close range with a god damn waterbender
> 
> you cannot present this as a speed feat it isn't meanwhile it takes Roy a fraction of a second to blow some one the fuck up katara is not reacting to that at all



*claps* Now, was that so hard?  Actually linking to something to use as evidence?

Unfortunately, it doesn't help your point.  Katara had a couple seconds...and she didn't spend them waterbending.  She waterbended after Azula launched the lightning.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeZ4XqtSv_4[/YOUTUBE]



> so basically either: your going to constantly reply nonstop until what 2012? Despite multiple posters demanding you stop because this has moved into parody land..or you'll get banned for obvious (to every one but you) misconduct



I wouldn't keep posting if I didn't have someone to argue with.  You're just as culpable in prolonging this thread as I am.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> Which was nowhere near in effect at the time. In the same episode she overthrew a government from within, all but won the war, and killed Aang instead of just standing in awe of the Avatar State and getting her butt whooped.



yeah let's omit she had help from a political mastermind who had by that point completely subverted the earth kingdom and her taking it over was merely a matter of convincing him to work for her...

hardly impressive



Oman said:


> That fits the definition of jobbing more than PIS.  But if you're claiming that it's inconsistent with Katara's history, prove it.



Prove that it isn't 


Oman said:


> Indeed.  No part of that involved superhuman physical strength.  Just force of will and resilience.  Which isn't strength.



that involved superhuman stats actually strength durability and stamina of course will too



Oman said:


> What, you have to prove something and can't make unfounded claims?  Perish the thought!



right in the mean time comparing mustang to a featless mook character was the epitome of trolling



Oman said:


> Because you say so?



because you were unanimously overruled when ever you tried to interpret that stuff



Oman said:


> *claps* Now, was that so hard?  Actually linking to something to use as evidence?



seeing as you don't it must be



Oman said:


> Unfortunately, it doesn't help your point.  Katara had a couple seconds...and she didn't spend them waterbending.  She waterbended after Azula launched the lightning.



well let's see here: she's point blank on a water source has plenty of time to mentally prepare

I'd also point out it's very clear Chi generatorated lighting does not move as fast as real lighting..this is agonizingly obvious given Zuko actually had time to run into the path of an on coming attack and no character in the entire ATTLA universe has ever shown that type of speed minus Iroh and even for him it's SM vs FL no one..is a lighting timer



Oman said:


> I wouldn't keep posting if I didn't have someone to argue with.  You're just as culpable in prolonging this thread as I am.



posters in this section have an obligation to respond to trolls because the mods are slow to deal with them (evidenced by you still being here) we aren't culpable it's the one who knee jerk replies to any one that  dares contradict him and that's you


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