# Police attacks peaceful protest trying to save a park in the heart of Istanbul



## Elim Rawne (May 31, 2013)

*Police attack peaceful protest trying to save a park in the heart of Istanbul*



> protesters are occupying Istanbul's Gezi Park to prevent a demolition of what many are calling the city's last green public space. Hurriyet Daily News reported that early Thursday morning riot police set fire to several tents and used tear gas and pepper spray attempting to force activists out of the park. Activists are calling on thousands more to rejoin the protest.
> 
> The demonstrators occupied the park on May 28 to prevent bulldozers from completing the demolition, part of the government's redevelopment plan for central Taksim Square.



More stuff at


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

Photos by Reuters:

*Spoiler*: __


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## WT (May 31, 2013)

I'm all for green peace - love my trees


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## noraktar (May 31, 2013)

The events started as protecting the park from redevelopment plan but it's purpose eventually turned into protest Tayyip Erdogan and his dictatorship.There are about 10.000 people there to show the government they can not do what they want all the time. What triggered all this protest is probably banning of drinking alcohol in public. And of course Erdogan called Ataturk and İsmet Inonu alcholics last week so it probably had an effect too. The media is being all silent here like there is nothing happening there. And the mayor lied about he ordered the policeman not to use force.


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

noraktar said:


> The events started as protecting the park from redevelopment plan but it's purpose eventually turned into protest Tayyip Erdogan and his dictatorship.There are about 10.000 people there to show the government they can not do what they want all the time. What triggered all this protest is probably banning of drinking alcohol in public. And of course *Erdogan called Ataturk and İsmet Inonu alcholics last week so it probably had an effect too*.



Is this guy just plain stupid?  I thought Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was basically off limits for insulting since he essentially brought Turkey to the modernization it's in now.


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## Karsh (May 31, 2013)

massive shopping centres are getting old tbh, but I guess it makes sense, trees can't rent the space they're occupying, the welfare bastards


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## noraktar (May 31, 2013)

Mael said:


> Is this guy just plain stupid?  I thought Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was basically off limits for insulting since he essentially brought Turkey to the modernization it's in now.



Well he hates him because he modernized Turkey, he wants to erase everything that has been built after the modern republic was founded. Even the redesigning of the Taksim squre is a part of that plan. There was a millitary barracks there in Ottoman times and it was destroyed when the republic came. On the very same place this park was made. And now he wants to destroy this park to rebuild that barracks. And the sad thing is there are many people out there who share his idea, and there are many others who don't. Events like this are going to divide the people even more.


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

noraktar said:


> Well he hates him because he modernized Turkey, he wants to erase everything after the modern republic was founded. Even the redesigning of the Taksim squre is a part of that plan. There was a millitary barracks there in Ottoman times and it was destroyed when the republic came. On the very same place this park was made. And now he wants to destroy this park to rebuild that barracks. And the sad thing is there are many people out there who shares his idea, and there are many others who don't. Events like this are going to divide the people even more.



Is this all in the name of Islam like he used to stupidly say?


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## noraktar (May 31, 2013)

Mael said:


> Is this all in the name of Islam like he used to stupidly say?



Yes, they all are.


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

noraktar said:


> Yes, they all are.



Not enough .


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## Al Mudaari (May 31, 2013)

Mustafa Kemal is hated by the majority of the Muslims in the world, only hardcore secularists and extreme Turkish nationalists tend to love him. Especially the Turkish military line, they tend  to worship the guy and his ideals.

It's getting better though; 



noraktar said:


> The events started as protecting the park from redevelopment plan but it's purpose eventually turned into protest Tayyip Erdogan and his dictatorship.There are about 10.000 people there to show the government they can not do what they want all the time. What triggered all this protest is probably banning of drinking alcohol in public. And of course Erdogan called Ataturk and İsmet Inonu alcholics last week so it probably had an effect too. The media is being all silent here like there is nothing happening there. And the mayor lied about he ordered the policeman not to use force.




I doubt this is true unless you can provide some evidence. However, if this is true, then he's got my support. Erdogan is a strange one, maybe he's doing what he can given his position, but he keeps hopping between Secularist ideals and Islamic ideals, depending on who he wants to appease.



noraktar said:


> Well he hates him because he modernized Turkey,




I doubt that, because even before Kemal, Turkey was dismantling from the pressure and slowly secularising. And as far as I'm aware, Erdagon is very much for a modern Turkey, he even insisted Egypt follow their model. 

Other than that, I think he's hated because he removed the Caliphate, persecuted a lot of people, tried to ban many Islamic religious practices and attempted to enforce a westernised ideal amongst Turks. His respect is only on the basis that he was able to save Turkey from being taken by its bordering nations.

In the beginning when he was garnering support, the people thought he was doing it for Islam. It's only later that reality hit them, and by that time, it was too late.

 *During the early days of Kemal’s career, many of his followers were under the impression that he was a champion of Islam and that they were fighting the Christians. “Ghazi, Destroyer of Christians” was the name they gave him. Had thet been aware of his real intentions, they would have called him “Ghazi, Destroyer of Islam.”* - Turkey,   Emil Lengyel, 1941, pp. 140-141


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)

The latest fascist act by the government and its own army "Police"

I'm really upset right now. The media is showing NOTHING about this, except the declarations by government officers saying this protest is illegal, and police is right to use force. If you check CNN, NYTimes, Al Jazeera etc. you can find much more info. It's ridiculous. 




*Spoiler*: __ 












There are so many injuries... People are affected by pepper spray all around. And this is all happening at the heart of Istanbul! 


#DontForget


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

I'll take Ataturk secularism any day over Islamic law, if Saudi Arabia, Somalia, and Iran are any indications of how bad it is in practice.


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## Unlosing Ranger (May 31, 2013)

Every town or city needs at least one park.


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## Elim Rawne (May 31, 2013)

> Erdagon is very much for a modern Turkey,



We're still talking about the same guy right ?



> On his second and third terms in office, despite the improvements brought about as a result of the first term, the government mostly gave up on the European Union backed democratization process[30] and became increasingly authoritarian[31] on press freedom,[32][33] on Kurdish minority rights[34][35][36] and on formerly dominant political powers in Ankara. Democratic initiative on Kurdish minority rights, led by Erdoğan, stalled.[37] More than a hundred journalists were imprisoned.[38][39][40] During Erdoğan's terms in office, Turkey has been through ups and downs on the Press Freedom Index[41] now ranking 148 out of 178 countries listed by the end of 2011.[42][43] University students in the hundreds were accused of being members of illicit, extralegal organizations and arrested for demanding free education on the charge of undermining the state.[44] During trial, eggs and stones were considered deadly weapons.[45][46] Turkey, as the result of a nation-wide filter implemented on the internet,[47] was classified as one of the enemies of the Internet and a country under surveillance, not just due to Censorship of the Internet[48] but also due to other transgressions of privacy and free speech. Demands by activists for the recognition of LGBT rights were publicly rejected by government members[49] and the members of the Turkish LGBT community were insulted by cabinet members.[50] Furthermore, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan government severely tightened restrictions on use and sale of alcohol due to religious reasons.[51][52]


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)

A live stream by one of the brave people:




edit: Just as I posted this, a bomb exploded near him and it went offline.


edit edit: 

It is back again. He says it was not a gas bomb that was thrown.


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)

A 26 year old woman was crushed under one of the police tanks and killed......


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## The Pink Ninja (May 31, 2013)

Turkish police are fucking psychos.

I appreciate the Met more after seeing this crap.


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)

Biggest sports fanbase in Turkey, Galatasaray, Besiktas and Fenerbahce fans gathered together:


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## Elim Rawne (May 31, 2013)




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## Arya Stark (May 31, 2013)

Unfortunately I had a job appointment there today and you can imagine what I got myself into. Thank God the boss was understanding and she cancelled the meeting however I was there and I went through with all that BS.

Civillians were effected.I know because I saved myself from them.


*Spoiler*: _not that important but_ 



Seems like I won't get a job from Taksim and this pisses me off. It's the best workplace for us university students and I found some quality shops there.

I hope this ends quickly.  *priorities*







Mael said:


> Is this guy just plain stupid?  I thought Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was basically off limits for insulting since he essentially brought Turkey to the modernization it's in now.



He is. But for some odd reason he has a great power behind himself and he just don't. fucking. go.

Everybody hates him and he still gets his votes SOMEHOW. People are fucking hypocrite.


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## Utopia Realm (May 31, 2013)

This is getting really intense. Hope the people can pull through this shit...


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## Arya Stark (May 31, 2013)

Also 

Kemalism >>>>> The BS they try.


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

Arya Stark said:


> He is. But for some odd reason he has a great power behind himself and he just don't. fucking. go.
> 
> Everybody hates him and he still gets his votes SOMEHOW. People are fucking hypocrite.





Arya Stark said:


> Also
> 
> Kemalism >>>>> The BS they try.



Might wanna tell that to Al Mudaari who seems to think this bullshit wannabe sharia is somehow better, because I don't ever remember it being this awkward/awful.


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)

The masses won't be stopped. I hope not just in Istanbul but in other parts of Turkey also we'll see this kind of uprise. Enough is enough.


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## Unlosing Ranger (May 31, 2013)

Kobe said:


> The masses won't be stopped. I hope not just in Istanbul but in other parts of Turkey also we'll see this kind of uprise. Enough is enough.



[YOUTUBE]_-gHVGOoE48[/YOUTUBE]


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)




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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)

A Norwegian channel is doing livestream:


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)




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## Grimmjowsensei (May 31, 2013)

Yeah shit has hit the fan. Can't reach some of my friends who went to Taksim to join the protest.

Might as well go there myself.


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)

This is about as pathetic as it gets. Sons of bitches.


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah shit has hit the fan. Can't reach some of my friends who went to Taksim to join the protest.
> 
> Might as well go there myself.



You might try contacting others via eksisozluk. Don't go there by yourself. 

And prepare some masks.


Wish I could also be there!


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 31, 2013)

Kobe said:


> This is about as pathetic as it gets. Sons of bitches.



Yeah those cunts in Turkish TV media should be the first ones to be publicly executed.



Kobe said:


> You might try contacting others via eksisozluk. Don't go there by yourself.
> 
> And prepare some masks.
> 
> ...



I decided not to. They shutdown the subway and cabs won't take you anywhere near there. And its a very long walk from here. Can't afford it right now.


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## Taco (May 31, 2013)

#FuckErdogan
#FuckTalaatPasha


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## Pliskin (May 31, 2013)

Holy shit, fucking savages.

Heart goes out to the dead. Row Row fight the power.


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## Arya Stark (May 31, 2013)

To see the chaos over there.


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## Taco (May 31, 2013)

Don't blame Turkish media, if they talk shit Erdogan will make shish kebab out of their heads.


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## Al Mudaari (May 31, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> We're still talking about the same guy right ?




Yes, talking about the same guy. I think it's indicated he's far more modernist then he is "Islamist" (as they call it). 

Some improvements I can personally applaud, such as lifting the hijab ban in various places, and restricting alcohol consumption (better for society in the long run), but , and he's clearly still down with a secular Turkish model than an Islamic one when he says stuff like;



So, not sure what to make of him, he's either very confused, or he's trying to please both Muslims and Secularists, or maybe, his "hands are tied". 



Mael said:


> Might wanna tell that to Al Mudaari who seems to think this bullshit wannabe sharia is somehow better, because I don't ever remember it being this awkward/awful.




Lol ,what's wannabe Shariah?


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## Arya Stark (May 31, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Yes, talking about the same guy. I think it's indicated he's far more modernist then he is "Islamist" (as they call it).
> 
> Some improvements I can personally applaud, such as lifting the hijab ban in various places, and restricting alcohol consumption (better for society in the long run), but , and he's clearly still down with a secular Turkish model than an Islamic one when he says stuff like;
> 
> ...



Are you Turkish?

Do you live in Turkey?

If not, I suggest you to shut up because you're embrassing yourself.


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

Islamism is not a good thing.  It breeds Salafists.


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## Elim Rawne (May 31, 2013)

> estricting alcohol consumption (better for society in the long run)


Citation needed

Yes, keep praising the same fuck who regularly imprisons journalists and dissidents and tries to limit LGBT and Womens rights.


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## Al Mudaari (May 31, 2013)

Arya Stark said:


> Are you Turkish?
> 
> Do you live in Turkey?




Are you a Muslim? Do you know what most Turkish Muslims (which is most Turks anyways, you know, the ones who vote Erdagon year in year out) think? Or do you hide in the corner and pretend like you have a single clue about Turks' or their history?

Just stick to being in denial with; "I have no idea why Erdogan gets votes, he's hated by everyone".



Arya Stark said:


> If not, I suggest you to shut up because you're embrassing yourself.




If you say so. 

Try to be a bit more intelligent than "neg rep - Erdogan is a piece of shit" when you respond.


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)

Al Mudaari do you get the point of this thread? If not, fuck off.


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

Arya Stark isn't lying.

Erdo is a piece of trash who buddies up to shitheads like Ahmadinejad.  Islamism in Turkey IS NOT a good thing.  We've already seen what thuggish Salafists do with Islamism in more moderate nations like Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, and how Islamism ruined the Egyptian movement.


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## Al Mudaari (May 31, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Citation needed




Bit of common sense really, countries that have restrictions on it, due to it.  



Elim Rawne said:


> Yes, keep praising the same fuck who regularly imprisons journalists and dissidents and tries to limit LGBT and Womens rights.




1. I wasn't praising him, I was showing you why he's a modernist, rather than someone who goes by Islamic principles.

2. Lol at saying "limit women's rights" when historically, I don't remember Erdogan being the one who tried hard (and succeeded) in banning the HIjab.



Mael said:


> Arya Stark isn't lying.




If you want to believe an Atheist Turk (assuming that's what he is and not some expat), who represents the ideals of an extreme minority, who makes delluded statements like; "Everyone hates Erdogan, but who knows why they vote for him", then fair enough.



Mael said:


> Erdo is a piece of trash who buddies up to shitheads like Ahmadinejad.  Islamism in Turkey IS NOT a good thing.  We've already seen what thuggish Salafists do with Islamism in more moderate nations like Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, and how Islamism ruined the Egyptian movement.




I don't think he's a Salafi. 



Kobe said:


> Al Mudaari do you get the point of this thread? If not, fuck off.




I do, but I just wanted to refute some of the silly stuff on here.

Anyways I'm done, people can believe/say whatever they wish.


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## Arya Stark (May 31, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Are you a Muslim?



Yes.



> Do you know what most Turkish Muslims (which is most Turks anyways, you know, the ones who vote Erdagon year in year out) think?



Yes.



> Or do you hide in the corner and pretend like you have a single clue about Turks' or their history?



I'm vomiting my own history, thanks.



> Just stick to being in denial with; "I have no idea why Erdogan gets votes, he's hated by everyone".



No I know why he gets votes, as I said in my post "people are hypocretical".




> Try to be a bit more intelligent than "neg rep - Erdogan is a piece of shit" when you respond.



Do you have any idea about what this thread is about? It's a BS caused by Erdogan and I'm effected too, thanks to today.

I won't involve in political debates with someone who has no idea about my country. Take your anti-Kemalism somewhere else.


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

I'll take an atheist Turk over a passionately Muslim Turk any day of the week...far less potential for violence.


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## hcheng02 (May 31, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Yes, talking about the same guy. I think it's indicated he's far more modernist then he is "Islamist" (as they call it).
> 
> Some improvements I can personally applaud, such as lifting the hijab ban in various places, and restricting alcohol consumption (better for society in the long run), but , and he's clearly still down with a secular Turkish model than an Islamic one when he says stuff like;
> 
> ...



What's so bad about going the modernist Western route? That's what made Turkey advance so quickly. Turkey is more powerful than any of the other more fundamentalist Islamist states around. Going Islamist didn't exactly help Iran, and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has been just as incompetent as Mubarak if not more so.


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## Terra Branford (May 31, 2013)

Shit, this is really fucked up. I should not have looked in some of the spoilers in this thread. 

From what I read, there are a lot of Turkish people really unhappy with their country and their government so I really hope they can pull through this.



Al Mudaari said:


> If you want to believe an Atheist Turk, who represents the ideals of an extreme minority, who makes delluded statements like; "Everyone hates Erdogan, but who knows why they vote for him", then fair enough.



What is exactly wrong with being an Atheist and why can't they be trusted? 

Also, how is the minority extreme? And I also don't think it is a minority. There are a lot of Turkish people who feel the same away about Erdogan.


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

I was just walking around in Boston an hour ago and passed by about twenty Turks with signs in Turkish and English about protesting Erdogan and asking "What if Boston Common was planned to be razed to make way for a mall?!?"


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## Elim Rawne (May 31, 2013)

> 2. Lol at saying "limit women's rights" when historically, I don't remember Erdogan being the one who tried hard (and succeeded) in banning the HIjab.



He's the one trying to force women to have at least 3 kids


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## Elim Rawne (May 31, 2013)

The army is urging the Police to stop teargassing people.

Some hooligan groups have taken over an armored police vehicle


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## Kobe (May 31, 2013)

It's spread all over the country... here in Ankara, Izmir, Eskisehir etc.

Tomorrow a much bigger protest is expected with involvement of opposition party organizations.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 31, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Yes, talking about the same guy. I think it's indicated he's far more modernist then he is "Islamist" (as they call it).
> 
> Some improvements I can personally applaud, such as lifting the hijab ban in various places, and restricting alcohol consumption (better for society in the long run), but , and he's clearly still down with a secular Turkish model than an Islamic one when he says stuff like;
> 
> ...



Lol, shut up.



Al Mudaari said:


> 2. Lol at saying "limit women's rights" when historically, I don't remember Erdogan being the one who tried hard (and succeeded) in banning the HIjab.




Hijab was banned for a reason. Which is a better reason than why it was created and forced upon women in the first place.


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## Mael (May 31, 2013)

ITT: Turks out in full force against bullshit.



Elim Rawne said:


> The army is urging the Police to stop teargassing people.
> 
> Some hooligan groups have taken over an armored police vehicle



Rare when a national military is urging the police to cut the bullshit but hey it's Turkey and the army IIRC is all about Ataturk.

Islamism should take a chill pill where it isn't welcome.


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## Terra Branford (May 31, 2013)

If the army is warning the police and they refuse to stop, will the army intervene, and would they let the protestors protest or just handle them better than the police?


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## kandaron (May 31, 2013)

Wait a second, all this is about a park and a mall, or erdogan's policies generally? If it is the former, then why the fuck are people dying?


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## Taco (May 31, 2013)

kandaron said:


> Wait a second, all this is about a park and a mall, or erdogan's policies generally? If it is the former, then why the fuck are people dying?



fuckin treehuggers


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 31, 2013)

kandaron said:


> Wait a second, all this is about a park and a mall, or erdogan's policies generally? If it is the former, then why the fuck are people dying?



Park and the mall thing was the last nail in the coffin. 
People were waiting for an excuse to rebel against these fascists.
No one expected it to be this big of a rebellion though.


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## Terra Branford (May 31, 2013)

I just got a message saying people are being shot on sight now. I can hardly doubt it since people are being killed already, but I want to know if anyone knows anything about this?



kandaron said:


> Wait a second, all this is about a park and a mall, or erdogan's policies generally? If it is the former, then why the fuck are people dying?



_All_ of it it seems. The park was just the start.


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## Elim Rawne (May 31, 2013)

Terra Branford said:


> I just got a message saying people are being shot on sight now. I can hardly doubt it since people are being killed already, but I want to know if anyone knows anything about this?
> 
> 
> 
> _All_ of it it seems. The park was just the start.



I heard about it, nothing concrete though.


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## Terra Branford (May 31, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> I heard about it, nothing concrete though.



Thanks for the links Elim Rawne.

One poster on reddit asked a question I was just about to ask. What exactly keeps their military secular?


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## Arishem (Jun 1, 2013)

Pepper spray cop is just so fucking happy.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rynGYSDvNY[/YOUTUBE]


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## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2013)

Wow. The crowd should rush him all at once and beat the crap out of him. Give him a taste of his own medicine.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 1, 2013)

Oh shit I was thinking that earlier.
Newyork has such a nice park

[YOUTUBE]8RJklNZv96M[/YOUTUBE]


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## Plague (Jun 1, 2013)

Have you guys seen those "Police Brutality" videos on Youtube? 

It's easy to make a group of people look bad, but it's like cops aren't even trying to be civil these days lol

I still remember the guy who got arrested for drinking tea XD


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## Zaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Wow, I didn't think this would turn so serious so fast.


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## Kobe (Jun 1, 2013)

I attended the protests in Ankara last night. There were so many people in pajamas, old, young, man, woman, making a convoy as we marched towards the parliament building. Unfortunately I had to return half way through but I supported them with my all heart. Fucking shameful only a handful of small TV stations reported that masses were moving in the capital city.




This is from Istanbul... 40 thousand people occupied the Bosphorus Bridge late in the morning.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 1, 2013)

Good job Turkish police and authorities, you now have the attention of the entire world. 

And more power to the protestors. remind them who's in charge. This is about more than the park now.


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## Al Mudaari (Jun 1, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol, shut up.




Best refutation ever. 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hijab was banned for a reason. Which is a better reason than why it was created and forced upon women in the first place.




1. There's no good reason whatsoever to ban the Hijab.

2. No it wasn't "forced upon women". The recent known ban came in the 1980's and because of it, thousands of women have been prosecuted for it.

Anyways, the ban holds a lot of significance for the Secularist and Kemalists elites, so they'll do everything in their power to preserve it for as long as possible. But I believe the ban will come off one way or another, just like it came off in Tunisia (2011) and in Syria (since the uprising). I just don't see suppression of religious beliefs and rights of the people to last too long, especially with the countries history.


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## Arya Stark (Jun 1, 2013)

Breaking news say that police are retreating and demonstrators got permission to enter Park.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Best refutation ever.



Compared to that post of yours, yeah 






> 1. There's no good reason whatsoever to ban the Hijab.


There are millions of reasons.
The mentality that a woman should cover herself up because of the arousal she may cause to a low life scum who calls himself a man, was from 1500 years ago. It has no place in the times we live in. 

A woman shouldn't be punished for what she is, just because some jealous cunt thinks seeing some skin or hair will give him a boner.

Unless you aren't capable of mentally, spiritually or physicaly controlling  yourself, this shouldn't be an issue for you.




> 2. No it wasn't "forced upon women".


Yes it was. 

Its not just social pressure, in some islamic countries they have to cover up, or else.


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## Al Mudaari (Jun 1, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Compared to that post of yours, yeah




Keep believing that.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> There are millions of reasons.




This should be interesting...



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The mentality that a woman should cover herself up because of the arousal she may cause to a low life scum who calls himself a man, was from 1500 years ago. *It has no place in the times we live in. *




1. No, it has no place amongst people with narrow minded and bigotted mentalities such as yours.

2. Women don't necassarily cover because it "causes arousal", they do it because it's what their religion sanctions. For others, they may do it due to cultural reasons. It makes them feel more spiritually closer to their Creator, distinct from the others (apart from Nun's I suppose) and is a modest sense of dressing. 

Ever met a woman who wears the Hijab before? Or ever tried speaking to one? Give it a go, most will tell you they don't wear it for men, they wear it for God. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> A woman shouldn't be punished for what she is, just because some jealous cunt thinks seeing some skin or hair will give him a boner.




She's not "punished", she's liberated. She doesn't have to go around wearing loose clothes to attract men or to wear clothes based on how others, especially society may perceive her. And I'm not saying this is how all women are dictated by, I'm saying that a Hijabi doesn't necassarily see things the way you do, nor do they feel oppressed by it, but rather free; free from social pressure and expectations.

And again, your very negative mentality seems to be based on little exposure you must've had towards other beliefs and cultures. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Unless you aren't capable of mentally, spiritually or physicaly controlling  yourself, this shouldn't be an issue for you.




Doesn't matter, *you don't have any right to tell a woman she can't wear the Hijab.* 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes it was.
> 
> Its not just social pressure, in some islamic countries they have to cover up, or else.




Yeah, you mean "Muslim" countries, just like Turkey is. Doesn't mean one has to force it either way. It's called "choice".


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## Arya Stark (Jun 1, 2013)

*Turkey protests rage for second day in Istanbul*




> ISTANBUL (AFP) - Protesters and riot police clashed for a second day in Istanbul on Saturday amid raging anti-government demonstrations, one of the biggest challenges Turkey's Islamist-rooted leadership has faced in its decade in power.
> 
> Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan remained defiant in the face of the unrest, which has exposed growing discontent with what critics say is his government's increasingly conservative and authoritarian agenda.
> 
> ...


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## Arya Stark (Jun 1, 2013)

*And now we can't use Twitter and Facebook.*


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## Zhariel (Jun 1, 2013)

> "We have become one fist," 33-year-old Ataman Bet, said as he swept the shattered glass and burnt plastic in front of his small coffee shop near Taksim.
> 
> "This has been everybody -- leftist, rightist, even supporters of Erdogan. People are angry, I am so proud of them" he said, calling the damages to his shop a "necessary sacrifice."


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2013)

If Erdo wants extremists...just go to Syria...:/


----------



## Lina Inverse (Jun 1, 2013)

This erdogan fellow

he sounds silly


----------



## Owl (Jun 1, 2013)

Occupy Park

Hell yeah!


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jun 1, 2013)

People in Istanbul I know are saying that some protesters are intent on trying to push the AKP government out completely, and aren't necessarily going to stop if the government went back on their plans with the Park.

I have strong doubts this is going to happen, and I don't just mean because of the governments power. The AKP still has a huge amount of support in Turkey, especially due to their achievements in pushing the nations economy which have been better than what's expected. 

I think if this continues, I can see counter protests soon erupt and a split occur - that could lead to civil war.


----------



## TSC (Jun 1, 2013)

It look like this woman is shooting milk/water out of her tits. That's some powerful tits.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 1, 2013)

> The AKP still has a huge amount of support in Turkey



Yeah right, that's why they're instituting a media and social media black out.


----------



## Almesiva Moonshadow (Jun 1, 2013)

Arya Stark said:


> *And now we can't use Twitter and Facebook.*



*What? I though only I was having log in problems.  *


----------



## Kobe (Jun 1, 2013)

Just came back from Kizilay. My eyes hurt like hell due to pepperspray. Thanks to some girls I have met there, I was able to ease the burning sense with lemon and anti-acid solution. 

We marched towards the Guvenpark from ODTU, there were 2500-3000 students just in that convoy. When we arrived the police used the pepperspray and tried to repel protesters with special police vehicles, but we took different route and entered the place. The scene was glorious.

Some pictures I have taken from Kizilay, the heart of Ankara:


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Jun 1, 2013)

Have any police been killed yet?


----------



## Kobe (Jun 1, 2013)

Killed? No. The protestors didn't aim for any violence. We didn't willingly attack the police or provoke them. They were already ready to use their arsenal against us. And like in the picture you posted, they were brutal. Inhuman. Assholes.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> 1. No, it has no place amongst people with narrow minded and bigotted mentalities such as yours.


The irony... 






> 2. Women don't necassarily cover because it "causes arousal", they do it because it's what their religion sanctions. For others, they may do it due to cultural reasons. It makes them feel more spiritually closer to their Creator, distinct from the others (apart from Nun's I suppose) and is a modest sense of dressing.



Lol.

You don't even know what the fuck your talking about do you  ?

Do you even know why the religion sanctions it ?



Kobe said:


> Killed? No. The protestors didn't aim for any violence. We didn't willingly attack the police or provoke them. They were already ready to use their arsenal against us. And like in the picture you posted, they were brutal. Inhuman. Assholes.



A friend posted on facebook that the police actually killed a protestor in Ankara. Is that true ?


----------



## Kobe (Jun 1, 2013)

Fuck off, troll.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> A friend posted on facebook that the police actually killed a protestor in Ankara. Is that true ?



I can't confirm that but it's speculated that one citizen was crushed under police vehicle.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2013)

Mochi said:


> Stupid fucking people. They're the same people who are against building a new bridge, airport and now a fucking shopping centre.



You don't even have superficial knowledge on the subject. You might as well go and live in saudi arabia.


----------



## Kobe (Jun 1, 2013)

Apparently pepperspray is not enough, they are now using Agent Orange gas.




Do they even know what this means?


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 1, 2013)

Just came back from...TAKSIM  It was bloooody awesome, my dad is going to stay for night there.

Let me just say this, Taksim is the most crowded place in Istanbul thus the whole Turkey. And now its invaded by demonstrators and the crowd makes even out of Taksim. Kabataş, Beşiktaş, Şişhane...It's full of people who had enough of this bs.

There were any kind of people you could expect; Marksist people, Alevis, Muslims, Christians, Non-Turkish, disabled...

Police retreated from Taksim but they attacked people at Beşiktaş. 

And outside of Istanbul; Ankara, İzmir, Mugla, Adana, Mersin are all out as well.

This an air picture to show you how crowded Taksim is (and it's about to get even more crowded now):




I sadly didn't take any pictures because I couldn't bring my iphone there. But I'll post pics I found from tumblr and facebook.





this is inside of park (I was there too):


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2013)

Guys, Mochi is Turkish too.  Don't get ballistic on her.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 1, 2013)

> and now a fucking shopping centre.



We don't need a shopping centre in the middle of Taksim. That's what Independence Avenue is for. And we SURELY don't need to destroy Gezi Park for it.

Also, this is not about mall anymore.It was just the trigger.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2013)

5 police men beating on an unarmed man rolled up on the ground...disgusting.

They are some brave people to continue to protest and just sit there when they know the cops are going to try and kill them, or at least completely disregard their safety.



> Apparently pepperspray is not enough, they are now using Agent Orange gas.
> 
> Do they even know what this means?



Chemical warfare? 

Does this mean the military will intervene now?



Al Mudaari said:


> Yeah, you mean "Muslim" countries, just like Turkey is. Doesn't mean one has to force it either way. *It's called "choice".*



Tell that to Iran and Saudi Arabia.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2013)

Mael said:


> Guys, Mochi is Turkish too.  Don't get ballistic on her.



And being Turkish means what in this case ? 
Tayyip was elected by Turkish people.


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And being Turkish means what in this case ?
> Tayyip was elected by Turkish people.



Let her have her say as a Turk before ripping her head off.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 1, 2013)

> - At least 79 people, including 26 members of the Turkish security forces, have been injured in violent clashes across Turkey, Interior Minister Muammer Guler told Turkey's semi-official Anadolu news agency on Saturday.
> 
> -- Turkish authorities have detained 939 people in connection with anti-government protests across 30 provinces, Guler told Anadolu on Saturday.
> 
> ...





Also Beşiktaş is hell now.My dad says Taksim is doing fine.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 1, 2013)

Mael said:


> Let her have her say as a Turk before ripping her head off.



Oh fuck off.


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Oh fuck off.



Fuck you too.

I simply wanted to see what she had to say but apparently it was deleted whereas the shit Al Mudaari spews is more in defense of Islamism.


----------



## WT (Jun 1, 2013)

^ We all know why you came to her defense


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 1, 2013)

@Mael



> Stupid fucking people. They're the same people who are against building a new bridge, airport and now a fucking shopping centre.



That's what she said.You can see the quote in Grimm's post.


----------



## Chelydra (Jun 1, 2013)

White Tiger said:


> ^ We all know why you came to her defense



Am I missing something? Is Mochi hot?


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2013)

White Tiger said:


> ^ We all know why you came to her defense







Arya Stark said:


> @Mael
> 
> That's what she said.You can see the quote in Grimm's post.



Oh...


----------



## WT (Jun 1, 2013)

Chelydra said:


> Am I missing something? Is Mochi hot?



Ask Mael .........


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 1, 2013)

> I simply wanted to see what she had to say but apparently it was deleted whereas the shit Al Mudaari spews is more in defense of Islamism


English is your second language, right ?


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2013)

> "People are entitled to disagreement with the government, they can exercise their democratic rights, *but they can do so within the context of a democratic society*," Kalin said.



Wait, how does Kalin think they weren't doing so?


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> English is your second language, right ?



What I said made sense.  If I forgot a comma...so be it, smartass.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 1, 2013)

Mael said:


> What I said made sense.  If I forgot a comma...so be it, smartass.



Forgot a whole verb, dipshit


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Forgot a whole verb, dipshit



Which was?  C'mon smart guy.  You're so fucking smart (lel) let's see what you've got to say.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 1, 2013)

Didn't realize such a huge shitstorm would start over a park. 


Epic pose


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 1, 2013)

Mael said:


> Which was?  C'mon smart guy.  You're so fucking smart (lel) let's see what you've got to say.





> whereas the shit Al Mudaari spews is more in defense of Islamism



...whereas the shit Al Mudaari is spewing in the defense of Islamism stays.

Enough of your bitchfit.


Police gassing a University offering refuge


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2013)

The "stays" wasn't necessary at all, big guy.  It was optional because it brought an implication as to the treatment of differing posts.

You lose, now go fuck yourself with a rusty spoon.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 1, 2013)

Is that Bah?eşehir University? 

Fuck fuck fuck. Beşiktaş is really gone.


----------



## Zaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Spending several posts on namecalling someone over missing an unnecessary word?

This is a thread about a SHIT JUST GOT REAL level news event, go be a grammar nazi somewhere else.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 1, 2013)

"You are not alone Turkey"


----------



## WT (Jun 1, 2013)

Was stupid to attack peaceful protesters as this situation has severely escalated however, don't think its a good idea to support and encourage protests such as "resistance against the dictator" etc as Turkey is currently one of the few countries with a high Muslim population that's got a relatively higher level of economic prosperity and peace. You don't want to ruin that do you?

/2 cents


----------



## Chelydra (Jun 1, 2013)

The catch 22 is the fact that turkey may already be heading that route(Of Muslim extremism) to begin with and this event may just accelerate it, the other hand the small chance exists that they may get a more moderate leader.(lol) Or best case things remain the same.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2013)

> The catch 22 is the fact that turkey may already be heading that route(Of Muslim extremism) to begin with and this event may just accelerate it, the other hand the small chance exists that they may get a more moderate leader.(lol) Or best case things remain the same.



It seems more likely that it will just get worse from hereon.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 1, 2013)

> that's got a relatively higher level of economic prosperity and *peace*



Peace ?

lolwut


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 1, 2013)

White Tiger said:


> Was stupid to attack peaceful protesters as this situation has severely escalated however, don't think its a good idea to support and encourage protests such as "resistance against the dictator" etc as Turkey is currently one of the few countries with a high Muslim population that's got a relatively higher level of economic prosperity and peace. You don't want to ruin that do you?
> 
> /2 cents



Look, when your Prime Minister tells you the situation basically like this:

"You can do whatever you want losers, _WE DECIDED IT_, IT IS DONE, SUCK IT"

and calls your legendary founder "drunk"

You are bound to go riot.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jun 1, 2013)

Oh I do hope Edrogan gets toppled. You want to be more of a middle eastern state than European? Well there you go.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jun 1, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You don't even know what the fuck your talking about do you  ?




3 replies and it's been full of this, avoiding the points and beating around the bush.

What a time waste.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Do you even know why the religion sanctions it ?




Think I know more about my religion than you do thanks.


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2013)

Arya Stark said:


> "You are not alone Turkey"



And a small event was held in Boston in solidarity with the Turkish protests.  It was about a hundred people but given the high level of Turkish in the Greater Boston area signs of support were around the restaurants.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jun 1, 2013)

Chelydra said:


> The catch 22 is the fact that turkey may already be heading that route(Of Muslim extremism) to begin with and this event may just accelerate it, the other hand the small chance exists that they may get a more moderate leader.(lol) Or best case things remain the same.




Doubt it. Couple of years ago, thousands were protesting against the AKP party (mainly consisting of secularist/kemalists), and one court even tried to ban them and Erdogan from politics, pretty much failed in the end.

People just seem to have this denial that the couple of thousands taking to the streets somehow represent the 65 million person population, who all apparently hate Erdogon/AKP, but "hypocritically" then vote for them. I think, a lot of people are yet to enter into this protest.

Oh, and I personally don't believe Erdogan has an agenda, I think he's very much still a secularist.



> The government argues that the crackdown is only aimed at improving public health and protecting children. It insists that it does not amount to a ban.
> 
> *"The bill doesn't ban alcohol consumption, it simply regulates it", AKP MP Nursuna Memecan told the Guardian. "People in Turkey have been scared into seeing religious fundamentalism around every street corner. It is important to protect young people from harmful substances."*


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 1, 2013)

> "The bill doesn't ban alcohol consumption, it simply regulates it", AKP MP Nursuna Memecan told the Guardian. "People in Turkey have been scared into seeing religious fundamentalism around every street corner. It is important to protect young people from harmful substances."



Young people aren't allowed to drink anyways. Moot point. Deflection.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jun 1, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Young people aren't allowed to drink anyways. Moot point. Deflection.




Even the USA and many European countries tried to ban Alcohol (because of its negative effects), in the end failed to do so.

With Turkey, I heard the ban is something like from 10pm - 6am. And that you can't drink within 100m premises of an educational institute (including mosques), and that advertisement of Alcohol is also restricted. 

Doesn't sound that bad (from a secularist perspective), and nor is this a real ban on Alcohol. Really only effects those who go to clubs drinking all night.

_edit: Actually, not sure about the clubs and bars, anyone confirm? _


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2013)

> Even the USA and many European countries tried to ban Alcohol (because of its negative effects), in the end failed to do so.



Exactly, they failed and for good reason.


----------



## Al-Yasa (Jun 1, 2013)




----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

somebody update me on this shit


----------



## Mael (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> somebody update me on this shit



http://www.reuters.com/


----------



## Crimson King (Jun 1, 2013)

Fucking scumbag government


----------



## Animaeon (Jun 1, 2013)

I wonder... If Erdogan does step down, then what kind of government do the protesters want?


----------



## Taco (Jun 1, 2013)

wow first against the armenians now against their own people. how do you arrest 939 protesters and get away with it?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> 3 replies and it's been full of this, avoiding the points and beating around the bush.
> 
> What a time waste.


Yes, apparently my time.



> Think I know more about my religion than you do thanks.



Lol ok, then tell me the reasoning behind Hijab in islam.



Animaeon said:


> I wonder... If Erdogan does step down, then what kind of government do the protesters want?



At this point, anything is better than these bigots. Yes, it is that bad.


A goverment that isn't driven by religious nonsense perhaps.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2013)

I have been waiting all day to see if CNN or any other news station would talk about this. You would think they had to have seen or heard something about this by now... 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> At this point, anything is better than these bigots. Yes, it is that bad.
> 
> *A goverment that isn't driven by religious nonsense perhaps.*



I doubt it will have that kind of positive outcome.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2013)

Terra Branford said:


> I doubt it will have that kind of positive outcome.



If by any chance the goverment goes down. That is going to be the outcome. 
People are already regretting the choice they made 10 years ago.

When they first got elected, I foresaw what these lowlifes would try to make of Turkey and people told that me that I was being delusional.
At some point, some people actually trusted these guys and didn't think they'd make an attempt @ turning Turkey into Saudi Arabia. 

These guys will be hanged, like some of their predecessors were in the past. Its just a matter of time. Could be this year. Or in 5 years. But it will happen.


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 1, 2013)

I agree it will probably happen somewhere further down the line. The people might regret their choice, but it doesn't look like what they think or care about matters at all to the government, so I  just don't see anything good coming from these protests and if they result in Erdogan's dismantling. Who is to say, even if the government goes down, they won't be replaced by just the same or worse? That tends to be the outcome of these types of things.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 1, 2013)

It's always amazing to me to see the same people trying to defend this barbarism.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Mael said:


> http://www.reuters.com/



thank you kindly


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jun 2, 2013)

Terra Branford said:


> Exactly, they failed and for good reason.




I think you're missing the point. Also, Turkey hasn't tried to ban it, they've simply regulated it to help against social illnesses. In the UK (and other European nations), the government's looking to substantially increase the price of Alcohol to help regulate it as well. Whereas the US and the likes, without planning it through, tried to do a complete ban on it in one go, causing criminal activities to increase.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes, apparently my time.




Then don't reply if you don't know how to debate.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol ok, then tell me the reasoning behind Hijab in islam.




I already told you  And you most likely don't know it, but men have a "hijab" as well (look up what the word actually means).


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Then don't reply if you don't know how to debate.


Its hard to debate with someone who is spewing nonsense.



> I already told you  And you most likely don't know it, but men have a "hijab" as well (look up what the word actually means).



No you didn't.

You said women wear it because of cultural reasons, or they feel themselves closer to their creater, or the religion sanctions it. None of them explain the reasoning behind it. 

I know men also have Hijab. It is not the same with a womans though. Woman have to cover up everything except their hands face and feet. To cover up their attractiveness.

Ok now I am waiting for an answer.

What is the reasoning behind covering up in islam ?




Terra Branford said:


> I agree it will probably happen somewhere further down the line. The people might regret their choice, but it doesn't look like what they think or care about matters at all to the government, so I  just don't see anything good coming from these protests and if they result in Erdogan's dismantling. *Who is to say*, even if the government goes down, they won't be replaced by just the same or worse? That tends to be the outcome of these types of things.



Turkish people. 

We don't want fascism, we don't want islamism(which is religion oriented fascism anyways).


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 2, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Then don't reply if you don't know how to debate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's the "cultural" punishment for men not wearing it.


----------



## WT (Jun 2, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> What's the "cultural" punishment for men not wearing it.



As long as men dress modestly, there isn't. Now having said that, women can easily dress modestly without the veil or even headscarf. Given that these places are sexist as fuck with a massive double standard, wouldn't be surprised if you hear the occasional story of a woman dressed modestly without headscarf being punished.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jun 2, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its hard to debate with someone who is spewing nonsense.




The only one who's been spewing nonsense with stuff they can't back is you.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> No you didn't.




Yes I did.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You said women wear it because of cultural reasons,




No, learn to read, *I said that's why some women in Turkey wear it.* (ie. Nothing to do with religion)



Grimmjowsensei said:


> or they feel themselves closer to their creater, or the religion sanctions it. None of them explain the reasoning behind it.




Yes I did explain the reason behind it;



> It makes them feel more spiritually closer to their Creator, distinct from the others (apart from Nun's I suppose) and is a modest sense of dressing.






Grimmjowsensei said:


> I know men also have Hijab.




Please tell me, what is the male hijab?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is not the same with a womans though.




Probably because Men and women aren't the same.

Look at some western countries, ever asked why men can walk bare chested, but if women do the same they can get prosecuted for it?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Woman have to cover up everything except their hands face and feet. To cover up their attractiveness.




Well, that's the whole point of "modesty". There's a reason women don't necessarily go walking out naked, especially considering the law would prosecute them for it. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ok now I am waiting for an answer.
> 
> What is the reasoning behind covering up in islam ?




I've already told you. 

*Now, I'm still waiting for you to give me a good reason as to why you should force women not to wear the hijab? *




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Turkish people.
> 
> We don't want fascism, we don't want islamism(which is religion oriented fascism anyways).




Keep believing like you know what Turkish people want. 

There's a difference between not wanting Islamism, and not wanting Islam. Had this protest been about the latter, then you would've seen a completely different reaction from the rest of the 70 million +. You are never ever going to get rid of the religion. 

ps. Enjoy, some real Academic research 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> What's the "cultural" punishment for men not wearing it.




Sorry, I'm not a "culture" expert.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jun 2, 2013)

Writing has been on the wall for this kind of stuff for a while now, Erdogan is one of the most blatant soft-authoritarians that has emerged since the end of the Cold War, when flat-out dictatorships and/or authoritarian regimes have become difficult to maintain. They are maintained by a tyranny of the majority and seemingly legitimate elections, but nonetheless slowly curtail civil rights/liberties and purge the opposition to stay in power for near-indefinitely. Chavez, Putin, Correa, and the Muslim Brotherhood are other prime examples of this phenomenon. Erdogan has spent years purging dissidents to his rule (human rights activists, lawyers, secularists, the military)

And not surprising Mudaari is taking the side of the Islamists. Our new religious fanatic troll


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jun 2, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> And not surprising Mudaari is taking the side of the Islamists. Our new religious fanatic troll




Rather that, than be someone who doesn't wish to give women the freedom to wear whatever they like.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 2, 2013)

> Rather that, than be someone who doesn't wish to give women the freedom to wear whatever they like.



So.much.irony


----------



## WT (Jun 2, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Rather that, than be someone who doesn't wish to give women the freedom to wear whatever they like.



Its a concession. You've won.


----------



## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

White Tiger said:


> Its a concession. You've won.



Judging by the responses here I beg to differ.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jun 2, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Rather that, than be someone who doesn't wish to give women the freedom to wear whatever they like.


Its more about that culture being fucked.

Many a Muslim man who doesn't see women's hair being covered think they're sluts. And thus hit on them relentlessly. (I have heard first hand accounts of this)


----------



## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

And it's hilarious that the cultural stigma as seen in Iraq for example with American female servicemen is that BECAUSE they continuously don't wear any scarves or anything to cover their hair aside from a patrol cap or ACH that they're even looser and thus a juicy prize for Arab men to literally flirt with or try to entice.

So yeah, freedom of choice my ass.  The "moral police" of several Muslim nations have seen to the destruction of that.


----------



## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

*Massachusetts Statehouse Demonstration Supports Turkish Protesters*

I had mentioned before that I saw about a hundred Turks demonstrating against Erdogan downtown in Boston.  Turns out there were a lot more that gathered later at the State House and Park Street area:


> BOSTON (CBS/AP) ? About 500 people demonstrated at the Statehouse on Saturday in support of pro-democracy protesters in Turkey.
> 
> Thousands of Turks took to the streets this week to protest against what they view as a steady erosion of secular government in Turkey. The government has tried to contain the protests with police and security forces.
> 
> ...


----------



## kandaron (Jun 2, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> 2. Women don't necassarily cover because it "causes arousal", they do it because it's what their religion sanctions.


To be fair, he asked why Islam sanctions hijab, not why Muslim women wears it.





Al Mudaari said:


> It makes them feel more spiritually closer to their Creator, distinct from the others (apart from Nun's I suppose) and is a modest sense of dressing.


I'll assume these are the reasons why you think Islam sanctions hijab (because you continually referring to them), however if that was the case then why is it okay for women to not wear it in front of other women? Modesty has nothing to do whether the one seeing you is man or woman. I think these reasons are not the main ones, and the main reason is because "it causes arousal", this is especially obvious here:

"_And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those *male attendants having no physical desire*, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed._" (Quran 24:31)

So:

Asexual male = okay to not wear hijab

Sexually active male = not okay to not wear hijab


With that being said, I agree with you, there is no reason to ban hijab.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 2, 2013)

Istanbul has calmed down, but fighting is still fierce in Izmir and Ankara


----------



## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

I'm shocked there hasn't been some idiotic attempt by the Tea Partiers to analyze these protests and demand Americans do the same.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 2, 2013)

For the love of God and all that is holy can someone please take the fucking "s" off attacks in the title. It's really bothering me.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 2, 2013)

> PM Erdogan is leaving the country for Morocco-Tunisia-Algeria trip. Reported by Halk Tv. His ex-supporter Abdullatif Sener, ex MP, comments "He would love to leave when there's a problem."
> 
> A month ago, PM went to USA after the Reyhanlı attack where almost a hundred people lost lives.



Fucking lovely. Run Forrest, Run !


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jun 2, 2013)

Probably should make this a mega-thread for Turky protests. What with developing story and all that.


----------



## PureWIN (Jun 2, 2013)

My friend from middle school is there.


----------



## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

I never realized NF was overflowing with the Turkish.


----------



## Utopia Realm (Jun 2, 2013)

Mael said:


> I never realized NF was overflowing with the Turkish.



Just shows how diverse NF is after all. I wonder how far the situation in Turkey will go.


----------



## Zaru (Jun 2, 2013)

This is the first turkish "IT'S HAPPENING" that I remember on NF, so of course they're all gonna flock here. 
With a country that large there were bound to be a few of them here, unless they're like the french who stick to their own kind in terms of internet discussions


----------



## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

No you're thinking Greeks.


----------



## Evil Ghost Ninja (Jun 2, 2013)

On reddit I have seen wounds on people from getting shot point blank with rubber bullets.


----------



## Succubus (Jun 2, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]GdeJX0qYmnc[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 2, 2013)

I saw a few pictures spreading of rubber pellets full of nails. Are they seriously firing them at people? 



> I'm shocked there hasn't been some idiotic attempt by the Tea Partiers to analyze these protests and demand Americans do the same.



They probably have no idea this is even going on. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Turkish people.
> 
> We don't want fascism, we don't want islamism(which is religion oriented fascism anyways).



Then I pray it turns out positively.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jun 2, 2013)

Glad this kinda stuff doesn't happen in Constantinople  but I'm sure that any business that has happen belongs to nobody but the Turks


----------



## Terra Branford (Jun 2, 2013)

Bikko said:


> [YOUTUBE]GdeJX0qYmnc[/YOUTUBE]


Bastards.

There is so much pepper spray in the air I could barely even see anything. I can't believe there are people that can actually do that to others. It is pretty sad that a country's police force can be so barbaric.


----------



## Succubus (Jun 2, 2013)

Live-Streaming


*Spoiler*: __ 













Water Cannons were running away from Bulldozer

also some TIRs helping with Protests` side

AKP Building burns in Izmir, HALK TV says protests need to be careful theres provocative


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2013)

Although you guys won't understand anything(those who don't speak turkish)


This channel will broadcast live the events happening around Turkey, mainly Istanbul.



Al Mudaari said:


> The only one who's been spewing nonsense with stuff they can't back is you.



you cute little troll.




> Yes I did.


no



> No, learn to read, *I said that's why some women in Turkey wear it.* (ie. Nothing to do with religion)


And thats different from what I said how ? 
Or are you nitpicking ? Because thats how you realize you are losing an argument.






> Yes I did explain the reason behind it;


Thats not an explanation.








> Please tell me, what is the male hijab?


You can google it and save me the time.
But it is more or less similar to a woman's. It requires a male to cover up his body, down to knees. And some other shit I forgot.




> Probably because Men and women aren't the same.


No shit.



> Look at some western countries, ever asked why men can walk bare chested, but if women do the same they can get prosecuted for it?


Because showing tits is nudity. 
But I think islamic moronity prevents one from seperating being nude and not being nude.




> Well, that's the whole point of "modesty". There's a reason women don't necessarily go walking out naked, especially considering the law would prosecute them for it.


Are you still taking about nudity ?




> I've already told you.


No.
Either you are dense or trolling.




> *Now, I'm still waiting for you to give me a good reason as to why you should force women not to wear the hijab? *



I already did. 
"The mentality that a woman should cover herself up because of the arousal she may cause to a low life scum who calls himself a man, was from 1500 years ago. It has no place in the times we live in."

In short, Hijab is for primitive and barbaric cultures. 



> Keep believing like you know what Turkish people want.


I do know what they want. I am living in the heart of it.



> There's a difference between not wanting Islamism, and not wanting Islam. Had this protest been about the latter, then you would've seen a completely different reaction from the rest of the 70 million +. You are never ever going to get rid of the religion.


I think anyone with the average IQ could clearly see this isn't about the latter.

I don't think it is necessary to get rid of religion. Some uneducated people with low consciousness levels definitely need it to keep themselves in the right path. Without it they are lost.

Though it obviously needs to be reformed to be able to keep up with the current and next generations.

But one thing at a time right ? 




> ps. Enjoy, some real Academic research



Thats not a subject I am interested in. I also don't need an academic research to learn about what is going on in the country that I am living in.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Jun 2, 2013)

Just read this blog entry:



which claims two civilians to have been murdered by police tanks. Has this been reported anywhere else (in papers or social media)?


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 2, 2013)

> ps. Enjoy, some real Academic research


so, you have actually paid 37 bucks for this ?


----------



## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> so, you have actually paid 37 bucks for this ?



Maybe he thought it fulfilled one of the pillars of Islam?


----------



## Moeka (Jun 2, 2013)

Things are moving fast eh  =O


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 2, 2013)

erictheking said:


> Just read this blog entry:
> 
> 
> 
> which claims two civilians to have been murdered by police tanks. Has this been reported anywhere else (in papers or social media)?



Deaths have been reported, but due to the hectic nature of things and the media black out, its hard to confirm things.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jun 2, 2013)

Erdogan's forces brutality is shocking, thought Turkey was past this kind of shit as of 20 years ago or so. In any regard I doubt he'll be ousted from power, but he's going to be much less brazen and more cautious in his activities in the future after this setback.

I expect initial concessions, followed by slow/steady arrests of dissidents, further censorship of social media, and a propaganda campaign against anyone associated with the protests (he's already called them Alcoholics on TV). We'll be back where we are now in a few years.


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## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

What can you expect with a guy who kisses ass to Iran, Mega?


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jun 2, 2013)

always some kind of fighting going on in these shit holes. surprised people still care about these animals.


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## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> always some kind of fighting going on in these shit holes. surprised people still care about these animals.



Y'know for the shit you spew about how Canada is so great...and then you say this...


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 2, 2013)

Don't like Erdogan, stop voting mandates for him and his party. Simples. His party won, what, double what the opposition won in 2011? According to his Wiki page, he's never lost an election. 

When he has such overwhelming results at the ballot, calling him a dictator is laughable.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jun 2, 2013)

And here's SP to the rescue, whitewashing clear-cut government brutality. Erdogan's Turkey is the worlds biggest prison for journalists and police brutality has been documented on a daily basis in this whole affair. Not really sure blaming the victim will work for the Erdogan bandwagon.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 2, 2013)

blah blah dictator blah blah *shoots Palestinian kid in the head* 

Stop voting for him if you hate him. We had no one to blame but ourselves for Bush*, and they have no one to blame but themselves for Erdogan.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*In our defense, he lost the popular vote in 2000, but still


----------



## Megaharrison (Jun 2, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> blah blah dictator blah blah *shoots Palestinian kid in the head*
> 
> Stop voting for him if you hate him.



Offtopic racism ftw! Who cares about what I say, I'm Israeli! This is pretty sad, even for you. Using this logic, your opinions on all of this is irrelevant because of x countries transgressions. It's especially funny because I haven't called him a dictator at any point. Someones clearly butthurt our little Pasha is being ripped a new asshole.

And yeah, I'll keep this "don't vote for him" justification for police brutality next time you march around proclaiming martyrdom for x victim of a leader you dont blindly dickride in the future.


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## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> blah blah dictator blah blah *shoots Palestinian kid in the head*
> 
> Stop voting for him if you hate him. We had no one to blame but ourselves for Bush*, and they have no one to blame but themselves for Erdogan.
> 
> ...



Where was a Pali kid shot in the head?

Then explain Morsi as well.  I mean it's not so simple when you idolize a one party system like the CCP, SP.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 2, 2013)

I'm not even talking about police brutality, nitwit, but the headlines that say the crowd is calling him "dictator". Only you could misconstrue "vote him out" as a justification for police brutality.



Mael said:


> Where was a Pali kid shot in the head?



There was none. I haven't seriously engaged this bog standard troll in years, so he will get the level of seriousness he warrants.



Mael said:


> Then explain Morsi as well.  I mean it's not so simple when you idolize a one party system like the CCP, SP.



Do you need a history lesson? 

Read:


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## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> I'm not even talking about police brutality, nitwit, but the headlines that say the crowd is calling him "dictator". Only you could misconstrue "vote him out" as a justification for police brutality.



Dictators can be subtle.  They're not all bombastic like Chavez.


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## Megaharrison (Jun 2, 2013)

The first thing you do here is run in, bitch about people criticizing Erdogan, blame the victims of police brutality, and dismiss their demands as "well don't vote for him", as if that somehow negates any need for popular protests or negates what Erdogan is doing here. It was an obvious whitewashing attempt, you got called out on it, resorted to racism as a rebuttal, then got called out on that. It's tiring to say the least, and you need to sometimes understand that if you have nothing useful to say don't say anything at all.

Anyway, more on topic, using this logic you're espousing, all protests as long as a state is officially "democratic" are unnecessary. After all who cares about what the government is doing, don't vote for x! If only these human rights lawyers in Erdogan's jails didn't vote for him!


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 2, 2013)

How the fuck is winning a fair election 50-26 dictatorial, Mael?


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## Mael (Jun 2, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> How the fuck is winning a fair election 50-26 dictatorial, Mael?



It's what you do afterward, homeboy.  Morsi is doing it.  Chavez did it before cancer beat him in a fair election.  Erdo was subtly doing it.  Ahmadinejad "won" his election.

What's your point?


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Don't like Erdogan, stop voting mandates for him and his party. Simples. His party won, what, double what the opposition won in 2011? According to his Wiki page, he's never lost an election.
> 
> When he has such overwhelming results at the ballot, calling him a dictator is laughable.



I'm going to hazard a guess and say that when campaigning for votes, he didn't say, "Hey vote for me, and next time you want to have a peaceful civilian protest I will attack you with full police brutality, kill or seriously injure a bunch of you, arrest over a thousand of you, and sit there laughing and spewing shit the whole time."

Stop victim-blaming.

And pretending that "dictator" has one strict definition...I'm hoping you're trolling.


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## Mael (Jun 3, 2013)

That's too easy Pika.  See, SP likes China a lot.  So when shit like Tienanmen Square happens...he'd probably have the same attitude...plus the complete lack of ethics respect as would any misguided American leftist.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 3, 2013)

You see the yellow, Mael? That's his party: 

He is no dictator until he ceases or rigs an election, sorry. He has too much support to believably be a dictator. This is even worse than the laughable claim that Chavez was a dictator. 



PikaCheeka said:


> I'm going to hazard a guess and say that when campaigning for votes, he didn't say, "Hey vote for me, and next time you want to have a peaceful civilian protest I will attack you with full police brutality, kill or seriously injure a bunch of you, arrest over a thousand of you, and sit there laughing and spewing shit the whole time."
> 
> Stop victim-blaming.



No, they voted him in knowing he would control the government for the next X number of years. That's representative government.


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## Mael (Jun 3, 2013)

Yes, he's a dictator when he starts implementing a "my way or the high way" approach with force and policemen like we see now.  You just don't know it.  Or are you going to excuse Chavez too for the same things?

Jeez...leftists...


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## Megaharrison (Jun 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> How the fuck is winning a fair election 50-26 dictatorial, Mael?





If only they didn't vote for him 

If you didn't have such a furious hard-on for anyone who hates the US/Israel you might be able to understand "dictatorial" isn't an all-or-nothing thing. You don't have to be a Saddam Hussein (I'm sorry calling him a dictator might offend you, lets go with Pinochet) to be dictatorial. There are also such concepts of tyranny of the majorities, and if we left all civil liberties up to "fair elections" most countries would be very different places human rights wise. A democratically elected leader can still be authoritarian, he can still be dictatorial, he can still abuse his power, and he can still become a dictator. 

You're more or less clutching to any straws (currently a combination of irrelevant semantics, all-or-nothings, victim blaming, and racism) to justify Erdogan's behavior here. He's ranting about protestors being alcoholic foreign spies and twitter being the mother of all evils whilst his police murder people in the streets and you're caught up in your honeymoon phase 

I'd hate to see you in another round of Tienanmen Square.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 3, 2013)

Mael said:


> Yes, he's a dictator when he starts implementing a "my way or the high way" approach with force and policemen like we see now.  You just don't know it.  Or are you going to excuse Chavez too for the same things?
> 
> Jeez...leftists...



It's amazing, you just attach dictator to whichever leader you feel. It doesn't even matter if they're overwhelmingly elected and supported, it's just a meaningless word now.


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

> overwhelmingly elected and supported



Must be the reason why there are riots against him in every major city


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## Mael (Jun 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> It's amazing, you just attach dictator to whichever leader you feel. It doesn't even matter it they're overwhelmingly elected and supported, it's just a meaningless word now.



Maybe you should ask the Venezuelans or the Egyptians who became disillusioned by their so-called elected leaders.  How about you ask the Iranians beaten by the Basij and some shot to death because the mullahs orchestrated the election from the start?  Chavez was a dictator.  Ask any Venezuelan around here...or are you too afraid to actually see the facts for yourself?

Are you this blind?  I get you have a boner for China and should move there amidst the smog and people shitting on the ground, but seriously...the fuck?


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 3, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Must be the reason why there are riots against him in every major city



Look at the electoral map of Turkey, Elim. His support isn't from the cities, especially not Istanbul who overwhelmingly voted for the opposition. It explains why there is rioting in the cities.



Mael said:


> Maybe you should ask the Venezuelans or the Egyptians who became disillusioned by their so-called elected leaders.



Look at how every populace becomes disillusioned with their elected leaders, including here. Disillusionment of the minority voters isn't a dictatorship. 



> How about you ask the Iranians beaten by the Basij and some shot to death because the mullahs orchestrated the election from the start?



There are no fair or meaningful elections in Iran. 




> Chavez was a dictator.  Ask any Venezuelan around here...or are you too afraid to actually see the facts for yourself?



You talk only to Venezuelans who can afford to be on here, and have never spoken to a poor Venezuelan, who were his voting base. You're the classic foreigner who misunderstands popular sentiment because he only talks to one class of people.

It's the same with the Turks on this forum, they are part of the minority.


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## Megaharrison (Jun 3, 2013)

Erdogan's blame of alcohol and twitter is more convincing argument SP, I agree


----------



## Mael (Jun 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Look at the electoral map of Turkey, Elim. His support isn't from the cities, especially not Istanbul who overwhelmingly voted for the opposition. It explains why there is rioting in the cities.



But the cities are where it matters...especially in things like this where he goes on to call the sole person who brought Turkey to the modern Middle Eastern (I think) economy it is via secularism a drunk and a bad person.

I'm not Turkish in the slightest but I do have respect for what Mustafa Kemal Ataturk did for his country.  A lot of what Erdogan wants to do is undo that.


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

What we learned today : SP's fanboyism can completely ignore police brutality


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 3, 2013)

What we learned today: If it is politically advantageous, call your political opponent a dictator. It doesn't matter if he is one of the most politically supported leader on earth, just call him one. 

Oh wait, that's an old page out of the playbook.



Mael said:


> But the cities are where it matters...especially in things like this where he goes on to call the sole person who brought Turkey to the modern Middle Eastern (I think) economy it is via secularism a drunk and a bad person.



Do you even realize that his policies brought Turkey from failed economy and currency into a strong economy and currency? Do you actually even know anything that happened in Turkey in the last 10 years compared to the previous decades?

That is the main reason he has overwhelming political support.


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## Megaharrison (Jun 3, 2013)

See this shows your disconnect with what everybody is actually concerned about with this issue: Nobody who reads your post really cares about the semantic application of the definition of a dictator. They're just horrified by your victim-blaming and obvious attempts to excuse Erdogan, the "most supported leader on earth". What's actually going on on the ground, the police brutality, the beatings, the massacres, the abuses of power - this is what is important to most people discussing the issue, though your fanaticism and lack of basic human empathy seem to render you either unwilling or even more unfortunately, unable to understand this.

But what do I know, I'm from x country you don't like, so apparently an opinion from said individual doesn't matter according to you. This is truly a magnificent true colors moment, SP. I'm not really sure what we're supposed to do with you anymore when you've become so morally bankrupt and fanatical.


----------



## Mael (Jun 3, 2013)

It's what you get when you think China is the shit, Mega.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

> Do you actually even know anything that happened in Turkey in the last 10 years compared to the previous decades?



Yeah, jailed the most amount of journalists last year.
University students and other dissidents were jailed 
LGBT rights and abortion was further curtailed 
Internet was filtered


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> What we learned today: If it is politically advantageous, call your political opponent a dictator. It doesn't matter if he is one of the most politically supported leader on earth, just call him one.
> 
> Oh wait, that's an old page out of the playbook.
> 
> ...



Man, you sure did have a different tone in the other thread.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 3, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Yeah, jailed the most amount of journalists last year.
> University students and other dissidents were jailed
> LGBT rights and abortion was further curtailed
> Internet was filtered



Okay, why do they keep voting for him? I mean, he sounds absolutely awful. How could he keep getting elected? Oh that's right, it's the same as Bush. He does do bad things, but with the support of voters, a very large group of conservative voters that keep returning him to power. 

Bad leader? You can debate that. Dictator? Ridiculous.



Seto Kaiba said:


> Man, you sure did have a different tone in the other thread.



We were debating dictators in the other thread? I'm certain it was the sincerity of politicians. Link?


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Okay, why do they keep voting for him? I mean, he sounds absolutely awful. How could he keep getting elected? Oh that's right, it's the same as Bush. He does do bad things, but with the support of voters, a very large group of conservative voters that keep returning him to power.
> 
> Bad leader? You can debate that. Dictator? Ridiculous.
> 
> ...





> In the midst of the endless volley of teargas against protesters in Taksim, one of the prime ministers advisors plaintively asked, "How can a government that received almost 50 percent of the vote be authoritarian?" This perfectly captures the more recent dynamic of Erdogan's Turkey, where the government uses its growing margins of victory in elections to justify all sorts of actions that run up against large reservoirs of opposition.
> 
> The most obvious way this pattern has manifested itself is in the debate over the new Turkish constitution, which Erdogan had been determined to use as a vehicle to institute a presidential system in which he would serve as Turkey's first newly empowered president. When the opposition parties voiced their fervent opposition to such a plan and the constitutional commission deadlocked in late 2012 -- missing its deadline of the end of the year to submit its recommendations -- Erdogan threatened to disregard the commission entirely and ram through his own constitutional plan. He floated the idea again in early April 2013, but softened his position as it became clear that there is significant opposition to his presidential vision even within the AKP.



But yeah, keep living in your own bubble


----------



## Golden Circle (Jun 3, 2013)

Mussolini was democratically elected and can't possibly have been a dictator. 

[sp]Go home, SP.

[/sp]


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 3, 2013)

> where the government uses its growing margins of victory in elections to justify all sorts of actions that run up against large reservoirs of opposition.


You're telling me that the people who get the most votes can legislate? You're telling me that constitutional referendums that get >50% are actually passed? 




Holyfuckingshit unbelievable

BTW



> Nur ?zkan ‏@nurozkanerbay 6h
> 
> There is NO any single death in #Turkey.



Is this true? Because I just saw the word "massacre" on this page but can find no evidence in the media that anyone has actually died.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> You're telling me that the people who get the most votes can legislate? You're telling me that constitutional referendums that get >50% are actually passed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> reducing the quorum of lawmakers needed for parliamentary decisions from 67% to 34%.



Allowing him to ram through any laws he wants, since his party owns 59% of the seats

EDIT:
Of course, you would consult a pro-erdogan account, wouldn't you


----------



## Golden Circle (Jun 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> You're telling me that the people who get the most votes can legislate? You're telling me that constitutional referendums that get >50% are actually passed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Constitutional referrendums are not elections, but what really is your point other than what the people want isn't what they get?



> Is this true? Because I just saw the word "massacre" on this page but can find no evidence in the media that anyone has actually died.


What is a media blackout, SP?


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 3, 2013)

1) Kind of like filibuster reform in the US, no?
2) We wouldn't be talking about votes or quorums in a dictatorship. 
3) The people voted to change the quorum rules 69-31. 




> Of course, you would consult a pro-erdogan account, wouldn't you



Yes, because I know every party member. 

Just post an article or something. Google News gives me no news of any dead. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but reading this shit I was expecting piles of bodies and now they're saying on twitter that no one died.



Rainbow Dash said:


> What is a media blackout, SP?




So there is nothing proving this? Massacres, really?



Rainbow Dash said:


> *Constitutional referrendums are not elections, but what really is your point other than what the people want isn't what they get?*



I've stated it many times. Erdogan is not a dictator, no more than Chavez or Bush were dictators.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

> 1) Kind of like filibuster reform in the US, no?


Nope



> Yes, because I know every party member.



Oh yes, you just happened to pick the one twitter account that spreads pro-erdogan propaganda. Sure, that's totally a coincidence


> Just post an article or something. Google News gives me no news of any dead. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but reading this shit I was expecting piles of bodies and now they're saying on twitter that no one died.


Media black out. Google it.

Also google, "tyranny of the majority"


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jun 3, 2013)

> Also google, "tyranny of the majority"



FWIW, I understand and sympathize with this concept. It felt this way during Bush's 8 years.

If evidence of a dictatorship does occur, such as closing of the legislature, the judiciary, a "massacre", or doing away with elections, then I will reconsider my position. But I will wait for confirmed facts rather than just bullshit on twitter.

I'll stop now


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

> But I will wait for confirmed facts rather than just bullshit on twitter.



The inherent irony when you call the information that's getting out as bullshit on twitter, based on a tweet.


----------



## hcheng02 (Jun 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> blah blah dictator blah blah *shoots Palestinian kid in the head*
> 
> Stop voting for him if you hate him. We had no one to blame but ourselves for Bush*, and they have no one to blame but themselves for Erdogan.
> 
> ...



Why are you so outraged when Israelis take down Palestinian protesters but completely OK when Erdrogan uses police brutality to put down these protesters? Who from we've heard were initially non-violent.


----------



## Roman (Jun 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Do you even realize that his policies brought Turkey from failed economy and currency into a strong economy and currency? Do you actually even know anything that happened in Turkey in the last 10 years compared to the previous decades?
> 
> That is the main reason he has overwhelming political support.



I'm gonna have to go with Mael and Mega on this. Even if this is true, it doesn't excuse Erdogan for the brutality his police forces are using on the people over the last remaining park. You may say he has overwhelming support but recent events indicate that this support, if real, isn't coming from his people and that should ring all sorts of red alerts.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 3, 2013)

For all those who don't live in Turkey and think they know what the fuck they are talking about(but actually don't) with the superficial knowledge they attained from the limited resources in google :

Its true that Tayyip and his party were elected by the majority of votes. They got 49% of them. The rest were divided among many other parties.
Although right now, the the remaining 51%(the majority of Turkey) hates them. That being said, they aren't at 49% any more. So while as a party they might still be the majorty, when all the citizens of Turkey are considered, they aren't.

So what erdogan is doing here is that, he doesn't acknowledge the 51%(and growing) and thinks he is serving Turkey by serving only those who voted for him. He called the protestors : Alcoholics, looters, marauders. Despite knowing that the years those "alcoholics" spent on education is 10 times more than the whole AKP voters. That is the truth. Most AKP voters aren't even primary school graduates. They are uneducated people who were bought by AKP by bribing them with coal, rice and other shit before the elections.

Any sane person can clearly see that neither this dictator nor his followers(aka uneducated bigots) are in no way capable of creating path for this country to move forward.


----------



## Al-Yasa (Jun 3, 2013)

erdogan is not a dictator. A bad leader he maybe but not a dictator.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Jun 3, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Deaths have been reported, but due to the hectic nature of things and the media black out, its hard to confirm things.


Sure, I was wondering if there were corresponding first-hand reports on Facebook/Twitter, which seems like the best one can hope for at the moment. 



Shinigami Perv said:


> You see the yellow, Mael? That's his party:
> 
> He is no dictator until he ceases or rigs an election, sorry. He has too much support to believably be a dictator. This is even worse than the laughable claim that Chavez was a dictator.
> 
> ...


There's no mutual exclusion in obtaining an electoral majority and trampling all over the principles of democracy while in government — it's not particularly rare. Democracy without freedom of expression and association is absolutely farcical. This regime's censorship, widespread imprisonment of journalists and brutalising of dissenters completely undermines its so-called democratic credentials.

This doesn't sound very democratic to me either,

Demonstrations have now taken place in other Turkish cities, with the Mayor of Ankara helpfully informing his Twitter followers while protesters were being tear gassed as they marched to the AKP party HQ that *"we could crush you in an instant. You should pray that we believe in democracy."*​


Mael said:


> Yes, he's a dictator when he starts implementing a "my way or the high way" approach with force and policemen like we see now.  You just don't know it.  Or are you going to excuse Chavez too for the same things?
> 
> Jeez...leftists...



Authoritarian is the word you're looking for. 

And since when is supporting a right-wing neoliberal conservative authoritarian a 'leftist' attitude? 

The entire Turkish left are protesting against Erdogan's government.


----------



## Golden Circle (Jun 3, 2013)

Al-Yasa said:


> erdogan is not a dictator. A bad leader he maybe but not a dictator.


Hmm, I believe the 'official' term is soft-authoritarian.

Whatever the case, Erdogan and the police went too far. Excessive tear gas, footage of people getting repeatedly kicked while down, chemical weapons, etc.


----------



## Danzio (Jun 3, 2013)

Arrogance and Cowboy Capitalism at work here


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 3, 2013)

NTV, one of the major news channels in Turkey completely ignored the protests for the past few days because they were bought by the goverment.

Today people gathered in front of their headquarters.

[YOUTUBE]fRW_cCIEI2o[/YOUTUBE]

Don't fuck with the people. 

Alliance no Jutsu baby 

edit :

Some coverage of the stuff that happened during the protests :

[YOUTUBE]iu-wDrZ-bsM[/YOUTUBE]


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## Danzio (Jun 3, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> NTV, one of the major news channels in Turkey completely ignored the protests for the past few days because they were bought by the goverment.
> 
> Today people gathered in front of their headquarters.
> 
> ...



Ha how dare you call them fodder?

As Berlusconi wisely  discovered  controlling the narrative is crucial, owning major news outlets are half the battle.

It's nice to see when people have had enough, and various interest groups work together for one cause .


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## Spock (Jun 3, 2013)

In no position are the police allowed to behave the way they did in Istanbul. That's just sad. They've triggered more shit now.


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## Jin-E (Jun 3, 2013)

What exactly is it that those protesting wants to achieve aside from the whole park thing? Overthrowing the government?


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## Kobe (Jun 3, 2013)

So many ignorant posts. I don't even know what the fuck SP is aiming at.

Listen. Even the leftest of leftist know that not everyone will share their political view. There is no such country. There will always be majorities and minorities. The situation in Turkey right now is NOT the result of a peaceful protest. It goes deeper than that. It is about violating human rights for years, restricting freedom, grouping people as "Us" and "Others". Erdogan can't stand for criticism. The more people oppose his point of view, the angrier and more violent he gets. He's been attacking CHP (the main opposition party, and founder party) ever since he and his party came to power, . He declared all those people who resisted the police and voiced their concern regarding the park, CHP people and bunch of depredators. The ministers from his government all share that the police are going too far and their actions should be investigated. Who is controlling the police? CHP or government? I mean who are you kidding? What started as uprising against police brutality turned into a battle against the government and their actions, and rightly so. The media is in their control, only one TV channel was able to show the protests (Halk TV) and they got a warning for showing anti-government material. This type of thing only happens in authoritarian regimes, not in democracy. 45% or 50% does not give government the right to take such actions. What is government, if not for its people? Erdogan said, just today before going to his, now regular, escape trip, that they are restricting 50% (referring to his voters) from going outside and oppose the protestors. I mean what the hell is this? He doesn't even know how to speak to people, he's provoking them more.

I could go on and on... just don't come here and defend him, especially if you don't know shit about Turkey. This is not about islam, this is not about Turkey's foreign policy. This is about freedom of speech, this is about living the life without legal restrictions. 

If Erdogan is anything, he's the master manipulator, who is one giant puppet at the same time.


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

Erdogan acts like a school yard bully. That's nothing new


The youth activists of AKP teaming up with the Police


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## Kobe (Jun 3, 2013)

Jin-E said:


> What exactly is it that those protesting wants to achieve aside from the whole park thing? Overthrowing the government?



They expect government to admit their mistakes and call the police to back off. However, the government is just adding more fuel to fire causing masses to gather and oppose more.


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## Mael (Jun 3, 2013)

Now to see if AKP youth activists are as nasty as Nashi's.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 3, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> NTV, one of the major news channels in Turkey completely ignored the protests for the past few days because they were bought by the goverment.
> 
> Today people gathered in front of their headquarters.
> 
> ...



The Turkish people there deserve better than being called the AnJ.

And +reps for those, Grimm and Kobe, explaining all of this to the trolls and the clueless.


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## Kobe (Jun 3, 2013)

Tumblr account for people who want to learn more about the whole thing.


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## Jin-E (Jun 3, 2013)

As for the whole debate about Turkey's democratic credentials....i'd probably label it a pseudo democracy. It has the superficial trappings and procedures such as elections, but lacks the spirit of a mature democracy especially when it comes to minority rights and consensus building. 

As Mega stated, it shares some of the elements of populist far left regimes in South America( Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia etc)

My take anyway



Kobe said:


> They expect government to admit their mistakes and call the police to back off. However, the government is just adding more fuel to fire causing masses to gather and oppose more.



Well, with Erdogan's usual level of maturity in mind, it's hardly a shocker.


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## Mael (Jun 3, 2013)

But then I inquire as to whether it's been a sort of pseudo-democracy during the days of Ataturk given how powerful he has always made military figures within Turkey.


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## Mael (Jun 3, 2013)

*Turkish premier brands protesters extremists*



> (Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan accused anti-government protesters on Monday of *walking "arm-in-arm with terrorism"*, remarks that could further inflame public anger after three days of some of the most violent riots in decades.
> 
> Hundreds of police and protesters have been injured since Friday, when a demonstration to halt construction in a park in an Istanbul square grew into mass protests against a heavy-handed crackdown and what opponents call Erdogan's authoritarianism. Protests have been held in dozens of cities.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/03/us-turkey-protests-idUSBRE94U0J920130603

The whole "arm in arm with terrorism" bit worries me...because the last person I heard using that line went by the name of Bashar al-Assad.


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## Jin-E (Jun 3, 2013)

Mael said:


> But then I inquire as to whether it's been a sort of pseudo-democracy during the days of Ataturk given how powerful he has always made military figures within Turkey.



Maybe our Turkish members knows more about it but IIRC, the military sees itself as some sort of guardian of Ataturks vision(secular, oriented towards the West) and has launched military coups when it sees that threatened by civilian governments, especially of the islamist or leftist kind. So yeah, kinda like a democracy with an ever watchful "uncle" monitoring, i guess.

Dont know that much about Ataturks rule or how authoritarian he was, but it wouldn't be that surprising considering he took over the reign during the era when the Ottoman Empire was in it's dying hour.


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## Kobe (Jun 3, 2013)

There was no authoritarian regime in Ataturk's time. Anything suggesting that is bullshit. In a matter of 3 years the army led by Ataturk, Inonu and other generals repelled the imperialist forces and founded a modern country. Of course he was going to lead the nation, who else was there? Some people say because there was only one party, it was not democratic, even Erdogan argues that. However, CHP of that time was not the CHP you see now. It was the result of the nationalist movement and led by Ataturk, it revolutionized many things.

After Ataturk's passed away, some things were not right and leaders mismanaged certain things. Army interventions affected everybody, not just leftists or conservatives. Whether they were triggered by foundation laws does not matter, it was wrong and not democratic. Nobody wants to see such thing now. Erdogan and his government eliminated the army threat because of that by passing judgement on generals with false accusations. The Turkish Army is now a shell of itself. You want to see a democratic rule in government, but not like this. Totally apples and oranges, however you want to call it.


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## Megaharrison (Jun 3, 2013)

Video of protestor being shot in the head by Turkish police:


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

That's being reported as the first casualty.


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

Taksim at 22:40


Eskisehir around the same time


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## Deleted member 84471 (Jun 3, 2013)

Amazing images.

Live feed:



People on other forums I visit (based in Istanbul) reckon it's all set to kick off soon. More stories of savage police violence.

First official death recorded:


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

The head of the youth wing of AKP "helping" out the police by beating up protesters


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

Bursa at 00:30



Police covering up their ID numbers on the top  of their helmets


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

CONFIRMED : There's a second casualty.This time, in Antakya


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## Deleted member 84471 (Jun 3, 2013)

If the fellow who was shot in the head is confirmed deceased, that would be the third, in addition to the casualty being reported in Antakya and the 20-year old mowed down in Istanbul. Many reports of people having their eyes blown out by rubber bullets and tear gas canisters shot at people's faces. 

Here's the brave authorities targeting two water cannons on a single woman, for the merriment of it...



Apparently this was Antalya, about 2 hours ago:


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## Terra Branford (Jun 3, 2013)

Wait, wasn't the lady who was hit in the head with a pepper spray can killed too? And the guy who was holding the sign in front of his face? I read that they died.



erictheking said:


> If the fellow who was shot in the head is confirmed deceased, that would be the third. Many reports of people having their eyes blown out by tear gas canisters shot at people's faces.
> 
> Here's the brave authorities targeting two water cannons on a single woman...
> 
> ...




Seen several images of just about the same amount of people. Who was saying the protesters were an extreme minority in this thread?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 3, 2013)

Yeah a citizen named Abdullah C?mert was shot and killed by the police in Antakya.


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

A government official caught in a lie,and also contradicting Erdogan no less

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c2UMz3Mrl0[/YOUTUBE]


There are reports of another from Antakya : A 9 year old got hit in the head by CS gas canister


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## Sunuvmann (Jun 3, 2013)

/goes to check out Al Jazeera English because they had been pretty spot on during the Arab Spring stuff



Welp, guess we know which side they support


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

Funny, since they were one of the first ones to report on it.(That includes local media)


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## Moeka (Jun 3, 2013)

I don't think they'll go off the streets anytime soon, and I;m guessing maybe just maybe Iran and Russia are empowering the protesters somehow, no proof though~


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## Megaharrison (Jun 3, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> /goes to check out Al Jazeera English because they had been pretty spot on during the Arab Spring stuff
> 
> 
> 
> Welp, guess we know which side they support



AJ has been riding the Erdogan dick since 2003 and especially since 2008. Not very surprising. I bet they're really ripping their hair out on what to do here.


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 3, 2013)

Change the thread title to something more fitting. Unless, you're too busy getting Eifel-towered by Blue and Mael.


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## Mael (Jun 3, 2013)

Moeka said:


> I don't think they'll go off the streets anytime soon, and I;m guessing maybe just maybe Iran and Russia are empowering the protesters somehow, no proof though~



Considering how Iran and Russia helped Assad slaughter thousands of protesters, I highly doubt they'll be helping protesters here.


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## Moeka (Jun 3, 2013)

Mael said:


> Considering how Iran and Russia helped Assad slaughter thousands of protesters, I highly doubt they'll be helping protesters here.


But Ordogan is with the SYrian revolution though, so don't you think maybe they want him to go away from being the leader of Turkey? ;o


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## Sunuvmann (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm pretty sure the opposition would be just as much for ousting Assad.

What with the country being flooded by refugees.


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## Mael (Jun 4, 2013)

Moeka said:


> But Ordogan is with the SYrian revolution though, so don't you think maybe they want him to go away from being the leader of Turkey? ;o



Eh, I wouldn't be so sure.

He did kiss Iran's ass plenty.


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## Greedy master (Jun 4, 2013)

Turkey is a theocracy and Erdogan wants to recreate the ottoman empire and be its sultan and the army is supposed to be the secular kemalist force who oppose this  but the army is not apparently good because kemalists were the ones who commited  genocides in the last century , up there with the nazi  and unlike what kemal did , the turkish army   likes to provoce neightbors and find an excuse to make war , as a greek i view both as hostile toward us but if i had to choose i prefer islamists because they are at least cooperative  , we have achieved stability in the aegean and there is huge number of greek investors in turkey , if the army comes to power turkey will try to claim all the aegean's natural resources for themselves and this will lead to war and minorities in turkey will be hunted to the ground. 

Unfortunetly it seems this will turn like the  other islamic nations , Erdogan failed in many things especially in the syria war , he tried desperately to remain in power by supporting criminal rebels and be an usa dog  so the world will view turkey as the democratic *hero* , he should have remain neutral from the start , apparently the big dogs want him out , hopefully this wont bring another war in the future.


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## Deleted member 84471 (Jun 4, 2013)

Trade union confederations driving the escalation forward with 48 hour strikes:



> Turkey's major trade unions, including The Confederation of Revolutionary Trade Unions (DISK), The Confederation of Public Workers' Unions (KESK), and the Education and Science Workers' Union (Eğitim-Sen) are meeting early today after soaring call for general strike to give weight to anti-government protests across Turkey, which were sparked by a brutal police crackdown on a peaceful sit-in in Istanbul's Gezi Park on May 30, 2013.
> 
> Istanbul Eğitim Sen (Education and Science Workers Union) Branch No 6 announced that they will be doing a labour strike on June 3-4.
> 
> ...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 4, 2013)

Greedy master said:


> Turkey is a theocracy and Erdogan wants to recreate the ottoman empire and be its sultan and the army is supposed to be the secular kemalist force who oppose this  but the army is not apparently good because kemalists were the ones who commited  genocides in the last century , up there with the nazi  and unlike what kemal did , the turkish army   likes to provoce neightbors and find an excuse to make war , as a greek i view both as hostile toward us but if i had to choose i prefer islamists because they are at least cooperative  , we have achieved stability in the aegean and there is huge number of greek investors in turkey , if the army comes to power turkey will try to claim all the aegean's natural resources for themselves and this will lead to war and minorities in turkey will be hunted to the ground.
> 
> Unfortunetly it seems this will turn like the rest arab nations , Erdogan failed in many things especially in the syria war , he tried desperately to remain in power by supporting criminal rebels and be an usa dog  so the world will view turkey as the democratic *hero* , he should have remain neutral from the start , apparently the big dogs want him out , hopefully this wont bring another war in the future.


Turkey is not an arab nation.

Get your facts straight.


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## Megaharrison (Jun 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Turkey is not an arab nation..



Tell that to Erdogan. Hes been trying to emulate them for the last 5 years.


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## Mael (Jun 4, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Tell that to Erdogan. Hes been trying to emulate them for the last 5 years.



Don't forget Persian, brah.  He hasn't been kissing the mullah asses for nothing y'know.


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## steveht93 (Jun 4, 2013)

So how will the situation in turkey affect Syria? What's your take on the situation guys?

Could this give Iran more dominance in the region?


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## Mael (Jun 4, 2013)

steveht93 said:


> So how will the situation in turkey affect Syria? What's your take on the situation guys?
> 
> Could this give Iran more dominance in the region?



Absolutely not, as the protests here are more secular related as compared to Syria's more blatant Shia-Sunni strife.  

Secular Kemalists want nothing to do with Iran's influence.  Iran is already suffering watching Hezbollah bleed itself and Israel smashing weapons shipments with extreme justice.

Refugees from Syria though might suffer from some of this but this seems to be a lot more inward in direction and it might hamper Erdo's ability to try to broker deals with Arab/Syrian allies.


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## Megaharrison (Jun 4, 2013)

steveht93 said:


> So how will the situation in turkey affect Syria? What's your take on the situation guys?
> 
> Could this give Iran more dominance in the region?



It lessens the chance of Turkish intervention in Syria to almost 0, but Erdogan was unlikely to fight his war himself anyway. Instead he was trying to push the West into fighting it for him in typical "Arab ally" fashion, again showing his emulation for Arab states.

A secularist/progressive regime replacing him would damage relations with Iran, Erdogan tried to foster an alliance with Syria and Iran in 2008 at the expense of his ties with traditional Turkish allies such as the US and Israel, but after the situation in Syria erupted the plan fell apart. Facing an enormous refugee crisis, increased shia-sunni mutual massacres, and a massively bloody war right on his doorstep, Erdogan was forced to call off his short-lived alliance with Assad (interesting to note that Assad has used Turkish-made weapons he acquired in the 2008-2010 period against the protesters/rebels, such as Patrol Boats and armored vehicles, something the Pasha has certainly tried to keep hush-hush). However he still is fairly friendly towards Iran as his vision for a pan-Islamic front against "the Zionist entities" (note the plural, which Foreign Minister Davutoglu has used to define Turkey's enemies) continues to define his foreign policy. While he backed off on statements he made in 2009ish when he called Iran one of Turkey's best friends, he still has tried to continue things such as joint Turkish-Iranian military crackdowns against Kurdish rebels.

Erdogan's exist would certainly damage Iran but help it at the same time, eliminating the prospect for  Western intervention in Syria but also eliminating the long-term friend who intended to move Turkey away from the West and towards Islamist regimes. Things such as Turkish-Israeli and Turkish-Russian rapprochement could also finally happen without Erdogan and his cronies, and these would also be a blow to Iran.


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## steveht93 (Jun 4, 2013)

Mael said:


> Absolutely not, as the protests here are more secular related as compared to Syria's more blatant Shia-Sunni strife.



Could we see a tahrer square in turkey? 



> Secular Kemalists want nothing to do with Iran's influence.  Iran is already suffering watching Hezbollah bleed itself and Israel smashing weapons shipments with extreme justice.



I have a feeling that if this escalates more,Iran might try to meddle in the situation.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 4, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Tell that to Erdogan. Hes been trying to emulate them for the last 5 years.



Thats why he failed. 

Modernization never reached arabs, @ any point in their lives.

Turks however are different. We've seen modernization, thanks to Atat?rk. My grandmother wore miniskirts in her time and no one criticised her for it.

Erdogan wants to create a society where wearing a mini skirt will be depicted as being a slut, drinking alcohol  equated to being an alcoholic.



And here is something I drew today for the resistance.
Feel free to share it with others.


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## Mael (Jun 4, 2013)

Ataturk was a godsend for that part of the world.

Iran interfering would be the worst thing that they'd do in all this and further destroy their reputation.  It would also destroy the theocracy's whining about "meddling," shut China's platform up, and prompt pro-secular parties to counter Iran.

That being said, anything that hurts Iran helps the world.


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## Kobe (Jun 4, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqIiWHMnM94&feature=share[/YOUTUBE]


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## Megaharrison (Jun 4, 2013)

Mael said:


> Ataturk was a godsend for that part of the world..



Besides that whole genociding Armenians/Assyrians/Kurds/Greeks thing.


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## Mael (Jun 4, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Besides that whole genociding Armenians/Assyrians/Kurds/Greeks thing.



I'm just talking the modernization aspect.

Yes I'm well aware of those issues as well and Ataturk is pretty controversial the way Park Chung-Hee was...but I was just talking secular modernization as compared to their other Muslim counterparts.


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## Kobe (Jun 4, 2013)

.


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## Spock (Jun 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats why he failed.
> 
> *Modernization never reached arabs, @ any point in their lives.
> *
> ...



Lovely ignorance. Highly irrelevant too.

I just adore those who equate modernization with miniskirts, nudity and alcohol.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 4, 2013)

Rarity said:


> Lovely ignorance. Highly irrelevant too.


It is relevant. And it is true.



> I just adore those who equate modernization with miniskirts, nudity and alcohol.



Thats a very dumbed down analysis.


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## Greedy master (Jun 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats why he failed.
> 
> Modernization never reached arabs, @ any point in their lives.
> 
> ...



You  cant say he failed totally , even though he did mistakes , he brought stability , huge economic growth and made turkey almost a superpower and a dominant force in the middle east  , the seculars achieved nothing but political instability ( alot of coups) , big debt and very bad foreign affairs with the muslim world , Turkey was insignificant before Erdogan and none ever expected it will turn so strong like it is today and all this thanks to charismatic foreign affairs of Erdogan.

Its really pathetic to blame a leader who achieved so much  because you cant drink alcohol or wear a miniskirt even though your capital and other big towns are not far behind from european capitals in terms of modernization and Erdogan himself took critical steps to make Turkey join the EU.

If the army comes to power you may wear a miniskirt or drink in public but this is as far you will get , prepare for another dark age in the political scene of Turkey , Kemalism except the secular part is nothing more than a ultranationalist fascism ideology filled with  lack of freedom,statism,pogroms and civilian control , Its no different than the Turkish golden dawn.

You cant blame islamic law for the lack of modernization , some arab nations are just great when it comes to this and others are still on the medieval age , its all about the politicians who rule those nations.


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## Spock (Jun 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is relevant. And it is true.


How is the history of modernization in the Arab world or as you so boldly claim, lack of has any shred of relevancy to the current events in Turkey.

There are various Arab countries who made significant developments in terms of industrialization, cultural developments and economic rationality, however democratization is yet to be reached to a sufficient level. Saying unfounded presumptuous  shit such as _"modernization never reached arabs"_ out of the blue just reeks of spiteful ignorance. If you have failed to observe the developments of the region in the recent years, recommendations of academic essays and books regarding this topic can always be arranged for you. 



> Thats a very dumbed down analysis.


What is dumb is implying that grannies back in the 50s and 60s wearing miniskirts is the epitome of modernization.


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## E (Jun 4, 2013)

so has this thing gone full-blown Egypt, or just London on the riot scale?


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## Al Mudaari (Jun 4, 2013)

My observation: Large number  of government  supporters are going crazy as protests swell day by day.  They say  Erdogan told us to keep calm.



E said:


> so has this thing gone full-blown Egypt, or just London on the riot scale?




Doubtful, the numbers are smaller than before.



Elim Rawne said:


> so, you have actually paid 37 bucks for this ?




Was going to give it a rest like asked, but seriously? Not sure where you're living or how its educational institution is run, but in many western institutions, there's something called .

It's a global community in which students, professors, scholars and experts within their respective fields share their research findings. It's done through . 

As for the money exchange in retrieving the research papers, then that's probably because of the time it takes, the better references, better quality writing, detailed insights, the peer reviewing and the more reliable results [ie. Instead of asking what your small circle of friends think, they'll get widespread data over the relevant subject], that you don't usually find to such standards on your average blog posted on the internet.  

As for me personally, no, I didn't pray $37, as I have a subscription to that and various other journals.


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 4, 2013)

> As for me personally, no, I didn't pray $37, as I have a subscription to that and various other journals.



Nice try, jackass. I am a part of academia.

Protip: If you are gonna cite an article, the burden is on you to provide full article. That means, don't hide it behind a pay wall. 



> Mahir Zeynalov ‏@MahirZeynalov 13h My observation: Large number of government supporters are going crazy as protests swell day by day. They say Erdogan told us to keep calm



Well, that was a load of nonsense. Erdogan is losing a lot of power, not just in the country, but also within his own party as Gul and Arinc (the President and the SPeaker of the assembly, respectively) have stated that they are willing to negotiate with the people to bring this to an end. All the provocation that Erdogan and his supporters are trying to spread is laughable.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 4, 2013)

Rarity said:


> How is the history of modernization in the Arab world or as you so boldly claim, lack of has any shred of relevancy to the current events in Turkey.


The relevance is that, Turks know about modernism, freedom and living under a goverment who has no islamic influence.

Arabs on the other hand, don't.

I am not saying this to undermine them. But they are more used to bans and limits and religion influenced life style.

Trying the same experiment on a nation who doesn't have such boundries was destined to fail. 

That is the relevance.





> There are various Arab countries who made significant developments in terms of industrialization, cultural developments and economic rationality, however democratization is yet to be reached to a sufficient level. Saying unfounded presumptuous  shit such as _"modernization never reached arabs"_ out of the blue just reeks of spiteful ignorance.



I am just saying as I see it. 
They have made big bucks thanks to oil. Especially cities such as Dubai and Abu Dabi. But they haven't been exposed to cultural modernization. 

Although I'd love you to educate me on the subject(not taunting you, just asking honestly), I may be lacking information.



> If you have failed to observe the developments of the region in the recent years, recommendations of academic essays and books regarding this topic can always be arranged for you.



I'd prefer summaries 





> What is dumb is implying that grannies back in the 50s and 60s wearing miniskirts is the epitome of modernization.



In Turkey's case, it surely wasn't the epitome. Still though, even that time was way ahead of how other islamic countries are now in terms of social life. Especially when you consider how things were like 20 - 30 years prior to that.



Greedy master said:


> You  cant say he failed totally , even though he did mistakes , he brought stability , huge economic growth and made turkey almost a superpower and a dominant force in the middle east  , the seculars achieved nothing but political instability ( alot of coups) , big debt and very bad foreign affairs with the muslim world , Turkey was insignificant before Erdogan and none ever expected it will turn so strong like it is today and all this thanks to charismatic foreign affairs of Erdogan.



TBH, most economical steps were taken with shitloads of loans. I don't have the exact numbers, but we have huge debts.

When Erdoğan's goverment took over, there was almost no terrorism in Turkey. Now it is peaking.

No one can deny that he made some imprvoments. 
But then, not seeing the other side of coin would be a mistake.





> Its really pathetic to blame a leader who achieved so much  because you cant drink alcohol or wear a miniskirt even though your capital and other big towns are not far behind from european capitals in terms of modernization and Erdogan himself took critical steps to make Turkey join the EU.


Its not pathetic. It is just.
No one has a right to limit my or anyone elses freedom. 
And most disgusting of it all, is doing this by using religion as an excuse.
I did my mandatory military duty. 
I know how it is like not being free. I don't want to ever live through that again. No one should.





> If the army comes to power you may wear a miniskirt or drink in public but this is as far you will get , prepare for another dark age in the political scene of Turkey , Kemalism except the secular part is nothing more than a ultranationalist fascism ideology filled with  lack of freedom,statism,pogroms and civilian control , Its no different than the Turkish golden dawn.


Army controlled goverment will take us a back a few years, there is no doubt about it.

But that is a price I am willing to pay. 
You can't imagine how many people sacrificed their blood and tears so that we could get rid of Islamism and the old ways of Ottoman Empire. 

Going back to that, is dishonoring their memory.




> You cant blame islamic law for the lack of modernization , some arab nations are just great when it comes to this and others are still on the medieval age , its all about the politicians who rule those nations.



Name the great ones.


edit : 



Al Mudaari said:


> My observation: Large number  of government  supporters are going crazy as protests swell day by day.  They say  Erdogan told us to keep calm.



Yeah, Erdoğan said "we are holding back teh goverment supporters, if need be, we can get millions on the streets."
Which is total bullshit.

They will never come out even if he told them to. Because they are how we were like 10 years ago. They are comfortably off. 
And this time, a couple of sacks of rice and coal won't be enough to buy them.

Erdoğan will never get the same support he got years ago.

The only reason why he won't be kicked out just yet is because there isn't anyone to replace him right now.


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## Mael (Jun 4, 2013)

Did someone really just compare the Kemalists/secularists to Golden Dawn?


----------



## Spock (Jun 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The relevance is that, Turks know about modernism, freedom and living under a goverment who has no islamic influence.
> 
> Arabs on the other hand, don't.
> 
> ...


And? What does this comparison lead up to? How will I derive a sound conclusion from this comparisn towards the nature of the riots in Turkey? Where is the correlation between Arabs not knowing about modernism, freedom and living under a goverment who has no islamic influence to the brutal policies being enforced by the Turkish government. This is just you wanting to compare Turks to Arabs for no apparent reason. Or maybe there is one.

Need I remind you that modern Turkey had its fair share of bans, limitation and religion influenced lifestyles throughout its existence? (Since Ataturk ofc). Thus there was no "Arab Experiment" to be trialed. This is just your government fucking up. No need to drag or blame the Arabs for it.




> I am just saying as I see it.
> They have made big bucks thanks to oil. Especially cities such as Dubai and Abu Dabi. But they haven't been exposed to cultural modernization.
> 
> Although I'd love you to educate me on the subject(not taunting you, just asking honestly), I may be lacking information.


I suggest seeing from a wider perspective as well. 

Lebanon and Egypt are usually the most well known examples of the Arab countries to go through a cultural modernization when it comes to the kind of modernization you are alluding to. 

There's also the fact that Arab GDP is not solely based on oil profits but the developing private sector where private businesses make up 85% non-oil GDP. 



> I'd prefer summaries



 and this is not cherry picked as it states many faults and disadvantages regarding unsuccessful transition periods. 


> In Turkey's case, it surely wasn't the epitome. Still though, even that time was way ahead of how other islamic countries are now in terms of social life. Especially when you consider how things were like 20 - 30 years prior to that.


That hold some truth to it but not applied to all Arab countries collectively. Let alone all Islamic countries.


----------



## Greedy master (Jun 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Name the great ones.



U.A.E , Qatar , Kuwait , Bahrain and Saudi Arabia comes first in mind  i havent research the subject but apart the islamic law and restrictions ,  these nations have progressed very much , the reason is probably the oil but still progress is progress , i have met people from these nations and im pretty sure their lives there are not far behind from those in european nations.



Mael said:


> Did someone really just compare the Kemalists/secularists to Golden Dawn?



 Kemalism is a ultranationalist ideology but unlike most ultranationalist ideologies it reject religion ,its just that the world remembers Kemal as the liberator and creator and its true for the turkish people he was just that but the actual political system he created was not that different from any other dictarorship.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jun 4, 2013)

It'd be accurate to call at least original Kemalists similar to Golden Dawn, they were probably much worse if you include the Young Turk movement which was more or less Kemal's predecessor. It was a kind of proto-fascism which nearly aligned Turkey with the Nazi's in WW2 and caused mass genocide. If Kemal's successor Ismet Inonu wasn't more level-headed Turkey probably would have joined the Axis. Secularism is a great thing and Ataturk was spot on when he saw how much Islamist governance holds the Muslim world back, but there's much more to Kemal then just that. He was basically a Mussolini or Antonescu who has had a victor's justice treatment.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2013)

Greedy master said:


> Kemalism is a ultranationalist ideology but unlike most ultranationalist ideologies it reject religion ,its just that the world remembers Kemal as the liberator and creator and its true for the turkish people he was just that but the actual political system he created was not that different from any other dictarorship.



It doesn't reject religion. 
It rejects religion as a goverment ruling facility.
One of Atat?rk's princibles "Laicism" dictates that a goverment shouldn't make discrimination between its citizens based on their religion, or that the dominant religion shouldn't overrule the minorities.
It is a perfectly reasonable setup.


Kemalism is often misunderstood and the circumstances ignored.


----------



## Kobe (Jun 5, 2013)

I don't get why people bother speculating on something they barely know.


----------



## Mael (Jun 5, 2013)

Kobe said:


> I don't get why people bother speculating on something they barely know.



Because they're Lakers fans? 

/Boston still got one up on you boi


----------



## Kobe (Jun 6, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wwSPRpVJZE&feature=share[/YOUTUBE]


'Gezi' tribute by Taiwan Tv.


----------



## Mael (Jun 6, 2013)

*Turkeys Secular Awakening*



> The protests that have been convulsing the center of Istanbul and other Turkish cities over the last several days are more than the comeuppance of its intolerably high-handed prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Both the diversity of the protesters and the nature of their grievances show that Turkey has become a much more liberal society over the decade the ruling AK Party (AKP) has been in power. Turkey has a democracy -- now protestors are demanding a liberal democracy.
> 
> Turkey has witnessed big demonstrations before, of course -- but they've always been staged by a single group, defined by either ethnicity or ideology. This is the first time that people from all walks of life have joined forces to constrain the power of their country's leaders.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kobe (Jun 6, 2013)

Guess I'll be getting this one.


----------



## Mael (Jun 7, 2013)

*Turkish PM to protesters: Stop now*



> (Reuters) - Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan flew back to a Turkey rocked by days of anti-government unrest on Friday and declared before a sea of flag-waving supporters at Istanbul airport: "These protests must end immediately."
> 
> "No power but Allah can stop Turkey's rise," he told thousands who gathered in the early hours to greet him in the first pro-Erdogan rally since demonstrations began a week ago.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/07/us-turkey-protests-idUSBRE94U0J920130607

Erdogan:


----------



## Spock (Jun 7, 2013)

^ if he doesn't intend on stepping down before the next election at least sympathize with the protestors, sack the chief of police or something. God.

Btw, Modern Turkey had 4 coup d'etat?


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 7, 2013)

Rarity said:


> ^ if he doesn't intend on stepping down before the next election at least sympathize with the protestors, sack the chief of police or something. God.
> 
> Btw, Modern Turkey had 4 coup d'etat?



No, it had 3.

AKP supporters were calling for blood last night, and Erdogan completely fine about it. Sick fuck


----------



## Mael (Jun 7, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> No, it had 3.
> 
> AKP supporters were calling for blood last night, and Erdogan completely fine about it. Sick fuck



AKP members confirmed for vampire status.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jun 7, 2013)

Erdogan calls for protestors to be hanged on trees in Gezi park


----------



## Mael (Jun 7, 2013)

Now that's an introduction to Islamism that Turkey needs.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 7, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Erdogan calls for protestors to be hanged on trees in Gezi park


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 7, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Erdogan calls for protestors to be hanged on trees in Gezi park


----------



## Spock (Jun 7, 2013)

Mael said:


> Now that's an introduction to Islamism that Turkey needs.



That's hardly Islamism. That's borderline Assadism.


----------



## Mael (Jun 7, 2013)

Rarity said:


> That's hardly Islamism. That's borderline Assadism.



I figured that as much, but it's what Erdo wants to try to be more or less.


----------



## lucky (Jun 7, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Granted, half of them were photoshopped



panoramic camera mistakes


*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Kobe (Jun 8, 2013)

that dog..  I don't even ..


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 11, 2013)




----------



## E (Jun 11, 2013)

shit's getting really crazy right now @_@


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 11, 2013)




----------



## WT (Jun 11, 2013)

Was planning to go to Turkey this December. 

Now I know for sure where I'm not going ...


----------



## Megaharrison (Jun 11, 2013)

Erdogan's version of Tienanmen Square at the moment. He has said none of the protesters will "get away". Nice to know he regards people protesting his policies as criminals.


----------



## Almesiva Moonshadow (Jun 11, 2013)

*Whoah...is he introducing an Absolutist Monarchy with this shit or something? 

Dude is at least 500 years too late. 

Keep shit like this in the medieval Ottoman empire, brah. :sanji*


----------



## Megaharrison (Jun 11, 2013)

Also: Erdogan insulting black people


----------



## Zaru (Jun 11, 2013)




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## Mael (Jun 11, 2013)

I wouldn't be surprised by it.  Erdo has been saying just about every dumb thing out there from irrational Israeli conspiracy belief to belief in Iran's intentions being good for peace to his ideas on punishing protesters to this.


----------



## Mider T (Jun 11, 2013)

Shit's live...this is exciting.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 11, 2013)

> While the Governor said there are two injured including one policeman, Gezi Park infirmary announces these numbers (until 20:30 this evening):
> 21 head trauma
> 11 various fractures
> 7 asthma attacks
> ...



And this is just the stuff from Taksim, today. Clashes are still going on at other cities, including the capital.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 11, 2013)

You guys sure slowed down on this.


----------



## Greedy master (Jun 12, 2013)

damn , this is really getting serious , i wonder if it will lead to a civil war.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jun 12, 2013)

Greedy master said:


> damn , this is really getting serious , i wonder if it will lead to a civil war.



That depends entirely on Erdogan, though from everything he's said and done since the protests started it looks like he wants nothing more than civil war.


----------



## Mael (Jun 12, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> That depends entirely on Erdogan, though from everything he's said and done since the protests started it looks like he wants nothing more than civil war.



Turks have the right to call me out on this opinion but I think he's simply posturing and trying to intimidate protesters.  So far it hasn't been working as he'd also have to get some serious police power to accomplish such things and unlike China and Tianenmen Square, he won't have the military helping him as the military looks a lot more Kemalist.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jun 12, 2013)

Mael said:


> Turks have the right to call me out on this opinion but I think he's simply posturing and trying to intimidate protesters.  So far it hasn't been working as he'd also have to get some serious police power to accomplish such things and unlike China and Tianenmen Square, he won't have the military helping him as the military looks a lot more Kemalist.



He hasn't quite reached Tiananmen level and I doubt he would be able to pull it off. China had the advantage of being fucking huge, so when the soldiers started sympathizing with the protestors, they simply shipped in soldiers from half a world away who had no relation to the protestors or the protests and they then mowed over students like it was nothing. Similarly, during the Prague spring countries from outside Czechoslovakia had to move in to put down the revolution. Erdogan won't have that possibility and as you pointed out the military is already pretty divided on him. 

All things considered, if the situation really gets FUBAR, it would probably be more like a coup than a civil war since Erdogan's power is far below that of any real dictator.


----------



## Mael (Jun 14, 2013)

*Erdogan makes conciliatory move to end Turkish protests*



> (Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan told protesters on Friday he would put redevelopment plans for an Istanbul park on hold until a court rules, striking a markedly more conciliatory tone after two weeks of fierce anti-government demonstrations.
> 
> Financial markets rose on hopes that environmentalists who oppose the construction on Gezi Park would be satisfied, but it remained unclear whether other protesters with a wide variety of grievances against Erdogan would go home.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/14/us-turkey-protests-idUSBRE9590QA20130614


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 14, 2013)

> Our government has been very tolerant, as tolerant as it goes in a democracy


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA


----------



## Megaharrison (Jun 14, 2013)

Erdogan has gone full Arab leader, he's saying the unrest is a scheme by "wealthy Jews" plotting to topple the Turkish economy



Never go full Arab leader.


----------



## Spock (Jun 14, 2013)

"Let me make everything about de arabz!"





Megaharrison said:


> Erdogan has gone full Arab leader, he's saying the unrest is a scheme by *"wealthy Jews"* plotting to topple the Turkish economy
> 
> 
> 
> Never go full Arab leader.



He never said that. That is not even written in your article.




> Conversely, over the last few days and especially since returning from a visit to north Africa, the Turkish PM has constructed his own theory of the ongoing events. At first he comprised a long lists of supposed suspects behind the protests – opposition supporters, hooligans, foreign governments – but recently the government's narrative is taking a more stable shape and accusations are mostly directed at* business men and large-scale investors *Erdogan has been terming *"the interests lobby."*
> 
> According to him, these want to hamper Turkey's economy for short-term profits. Though the specific guilty partners* were not explicitly named*, it *appears *Erdogan is *hinting *at investors such as Jewish-American tycoon George Soros and other Jewish and Western businessmen


Stop being forever the victim.

For all the lunacy on blaming foreign businessmen, he never said what you are making up.  "It appears" and "hinting". Bravo. 

This journalist is obtrusively taking advantages from existing foreign investors in Turkey and is trying to deliver a juicy story by pining it only to the Jews regardless of what Erdogan had said. Which is in fact stupid since he is blaming foreign investors in general.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Jun 14, 2013)

I read about those comments a week ago and the term "money interest lobby" sounded like classic anti-Semitic dog-whistle tactics to me. However, I can quite easily accept that this was a premature leap to a conclusion and the speech was actually more nuanced than that (bad foreign capitalists vs. good Turkish capitalists). As for that report, it's out of order for 'ynetnews' to pretend that he said "I blame the Jews" when he didn't. 

What he actually did say about black people was fucking disgraceful though.

The situation seems precarious with the government rallies being called for the 16th (and tomorrow?)... Hope there's no serious violence.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 15, 2013)

erictheking said:


> The situation seems precarious with the government rallies being called for the 16th (and tomorrow?)... Hope there's no serious violence.



It has escalated again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-22922697


----------



## Chelydra (Jun 15, 2013)

Well it looks like the riot police have squashed the protests for the time being.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 15, 2013)

So what is the next step you think?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 16, 2013)

Rarity said:


> "Let me make everything about de arabz!"
> 
> He never said that. That is not even written in your article.
> 
> ...


You calling someone a forever victim?


----------



## Arya Stark (Jun 16, 2013)

> It's Jews
> It's USA
> It's Russia
> It's Communists
> These kids are fucking nuts.

Pick your favourite


----------



## Spock (Jun 16, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You calling someone a forever victim?



                                 ?








.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jun 16, 2013)

Shits going viral

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8YbYbX4tPE[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jun 16, 2013)

Man, the cops are fucking losing it


----------



## Golden Circle (Jun 17, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You calling someone a forever victim?


You don't understand what Rarity said.


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Rarity said:


> "Let me make everything about de arabz!"
> 
> He never said that. That is not even written in your article.



Yes, the title appears to be misleading with the intent of capturing readers' attentions. Quality journalism right there


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Man, the cops are fucking losing it



You would be too if your workday was standing in the sun all day while people insult you and throw shit at you and attack you, and then you come home and get to listen to the press talk about your brutal tear gas tactics.


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> You would be too if your workday was standing in the sun all day while people insult you and throw shit at you and attack you, and then you come home and get to listen to the press talk about your brutal tear gas tactics.



Because tear gas tactics on peaceful protesters aren't brutal? Yes, I get that throwing shit isn't exactly peaceful in nature but what can they attack police officers with that they can't defend themselves against? I'd think riot police had those shields for a reason.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> Because tear gas tactics on peaceful protesters aren't brutal?



No, they aren't.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 17, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]tvtJPs8IDgU[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> No, they aren't.



Wow Blue. Just wow. Way to justify unwarranted violence.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> Wow Blue. Just wow. Way to justify unwarranted violence.



>Violence
>Tear gas

Pick one?


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> >Violence
> >Tear gas
> 
> Pick one?



How about both? Since you're making it sound as if tear gas is non-violent. Strictly speaking, throwing random things at riot police is nothing compared to the arsenal the latter has at their disposal. Look at Abdullah C?mert. Killed by an exploding tear gas canister. Not to mention protesters shot dead. Of course protests will escalate to such extent when violence is met with even more violence.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> How about both?



No. You cannot just keep crying about anything police do until their only option to combat rioters is to curl up in a ball and wait to die.

Tear gas is fucking kiddie gloves shit. You suck it in, cough a little bit, and go home fine. 
Nightsticks are more typical. Rubber bullets are common. And metal bullets is what you get if you don't live in a cushy little quasi-first-world democracy like Turkey.


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> No. You cannot just keep crying about anything police do until their only option to combat rioters is to curl up in a ball and wait to die.
> 
> Tear gas is fucking kiddie gloves shit. You suck it in, cough a little bit, and go home fine.
> Nightsticks are more typical. Rubber bullets are common. And metal bullets is what you get if you don't live in a cushy little quasi-first-world democracy like Turkey.



Well done failing to read the rest of my post. That's very convenient for you.

Someone died because a tear gas grenade blew up on his head. Hardly what I'd call kiddie gloves shit. But if that's what you call it, what regular people must have then is baby gloves shit.

Riot police have riot shields for a reason. Nothing regular people have can compare to their arsenal. You're out of your mind if you think otherwise.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> Well done failing to read the rest of my post. That's very convenient for you.
> 
> Someone died because a tear gas grenade blew up on his head. Hardly what I'd call kiddie gloves shit. But if that's what you call it, what regular people must have then is baby gloves shit.


Because the rest of your post was silly. Out of the zillions of tear gas canisters fired every day all over the world, one defective one explodes (they're not supposed to explode).



> Riot police have riot shields for a reason. Nothing regular people have can compare to their arsenal. You're out of your mind if you think otherwise.


>90 police
>15000 protesters

"Hurr use your shields guys"


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> Because the rest of your post was silly. Out of the zillions of tear gas canisters fired every day all over the world, one defective one explodes (they're not supposed to explode).



Sure. But what're the chances of a defective soda can exploding and killing a police officer? None.

Nvm that a protester got shot and killed.




Blue said:


> >90 police
> >15000 protesters
> 
> "Hurr use your shields guys"



>90 police armed with riot shields, tear gas and in some cases guns.
>15000 protesters with soda cans and rotten tomatoes.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> >90 police armed with riot shields, *tear gas*



Glad we're in agreement finally.


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> Glad we're in agreement finally.



/missing the point

Are you doing it on purpose?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> No. You cannot just keep crying about anything police do until their only option to combat rioters is to curl up in a ball and wait to die.
> 
> Tear gas is fucking kiddie gloves shit. You suck it in, cough a little bit, and go home fine.
> Nightsticks are more typical. Rubber bullets are common. And metal bullets is what you get if you don't live in a cushy little quasi-first-world democracy like Turkey.



There wasn't any rioting until the police started escalating the situation


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> /missing the point
> 
> Are you doing it on purpose?



This time, yes, but you have to admit, you walked right into that. 

You went from comparing your hypothetical disarmed shield cops vs. a huge crowd to comparing real, tear-gas armed cops vs. a huge crowd.

Surprise, the tear gas guys do okay.

The shield guys get shoved over and stomped on.


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> This time, yes, but you have to admit, you walked right into that.



There was nothing to walk into. In fact, I never even denied the use of tear gas. My point is that tear gas isn't exactly as harmless as you're making it out to be, harmless as it is. Even more importantly, it's more dangerous than whatever protesters can use. I only walked right into that because you keep ignoring 90% of my posts for your convenience.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Whatever, dude. If you were the cop out there staring down thousands of angry people, you sure as shit wouldn't want a goddamn shield to keep them in line.


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> Whatever, dude. If you were the cop out there staring down thousands of angry people, you sure as shit wouldn't want a goddamn shield to keep them in line.



I actually would (not that I would be a cop in the first place). You'd be surprised but not everyone's like you.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> There was nothing to walk into. In fact, I never even denied the use of tear gas. My point is that tear gas isn't exactly as harmless as you're making it out to be, harmless as it is. Even more importantly, it's more dangerous than whatever protesters can use. I only walked right into that because you keep ignoring 90% of my posts for your convenience.


The point of tear gas is to discourage rioting. It's not too dangerous to keep people off the streets and it doesn't have the mortality rate of bullets, tasers or rubber bullets or even beating people. 

So I would say it makes more sense than the alternative.


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The point of tear gas is to discourage rioting. It's not too dangerous to keep people off the streets and it doesn't have the mortality rate of bullets, tasers or rubber bullets or even beating people.
> 
> So I would say it makes more sense than the alternative.



The problem with Blue's argument is that he's making it out as if protesters would and could kill police officers if tear gas isn't used. The thing is protesters don't have guns or tasers, or any kind of arsenal which even comes close to the sort of arsenal riot police can make use of. At worst, protesters can throw rocks and that's about it.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> The problem with Blue's argument is that he's making it out as if protesters would and could kill police officers if tear gas isn't used. The thing is protesters don't have guns or tasers, or any kind of arsenal which even comes close to the sort of arsenal riot police can make use of. At worst, protesters can throw rocks and that's about it.


Protesters probably have numbers. The police are better equipped normally, but they could still be killed if they let the people get to close or throw rocks indiscriminately.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> The problem with Blue's argument is that he's making it out as if protesters would and could kill police officers if tear gas isn't used. The thing is protesters don't have guns or tasers, or any kind of arsenal which even comes close to the sort of arsenal riot police can make use of. At worst, protesters can throw rocks and that's about it.



First, thousands of people can easily kill just by walking over someone. Happens all the time, especially in Wal-Marts at Christmastime.

Second, no, that wasn't my argument. Police aren't there to fight protesters; they're there to keep them from becoming violent or breaking anything. This usually involves dispersing the crowd when and if they get too agitated. 

Try fucking doing that with shields.


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Protesters probably have numbers. The police are better equipped normally, but they could still be killed if they let the people get to close or throw rocks indiscriminately.



That's hypothetical until it actually happens and an officer is killed by protesters.

HINT: it hasn't actually happened. What did happen is Abdullah C?mert dying from a tear gas canister blowing in his face. And İrfan Tuna dying due to overexposure to tear gas. . It doesn't look like the number of protesters is making a great deal of difference no matter how you put it.



Blue said:


> First, thousands of people can easily kill just by walking over someone. Happens all the time, especially in Wal-Marts at Christmastime.



That's hard to happen when riot police have their shields to stop that from happening. And that normally happens in huge crowds where a clear side isn't defined anyways.



Blue said:


> Second, no, that wasn't my argument. Police aren't there to fight protesters; they're there to keep them from becoming violent or breaking anything. This usually involves dispersing the crowd when and if they get too agitated.



Stop protesters from getting violent by getting violent first. Makes sense.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> That's hypothetical until it actually happens and an officer is killed by protesters.
> 
> HINT: it hasn't actually happened..



R U SRS DUDE



And that's in fucking Turkey, go to Egypt or Syria (before the shitfan) or Yemen; it was a fucking meatgrinder.


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

^ ignoring the rest of my post for convenience yet again.

Srsly blue, just stahp. It was funny at first but now it's just annoying.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> ^ ignoring the rest of my post for convenience yet again.



First, you hadn't made the rest of your post yet when I quoted you. Second, who cares, it's all just pedantic argument and the part I quoted is you being demonstrably completely wrong.

EDIT: Gonna accuse me of ignoring that little edit you just made?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 17, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Protesters probably have numbers. The police are better equipped normally, but they could still be killed if they let the people get to close or throw rocks indiscriminately.



Protesters reached 600,000+ supposedly all around.




Freedan said:


> There was nothing to walk into. In fact, I never even denied the use of tear gas. My point is that tear gas isn't exactly as harmless as you're making it out to be, harmless as it is. Even more importantly, it's more dangerous than whatever protesters can use. I only walked right into that because you keep ignoring 90% of my posts for your convenience.









Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The point of tear gas is to discourage rioting. It's not too dangerous to keep people off the streets and it doesn't have the mortality rate of bullets, tasers or rubber bullets or even beating people.
> 
> So I would say it makes more sense than the alternative.



Or crossbow bolts 
I wouldn't place too much blame on the police here, while they could rebel and just not do it they are using non-deadly force(which can be deadly but rarely is) and it's clear they aren't too happy about this either.

The real problem is the government simply not complying to begin with and just saying "you can have your park" especially when it's one of the few remaining left resulting in a domino effect. The police aren't the real issue here.


----------



## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> First, you hadn't made the rest of your post yet when I quoted you. Second, who cares, it's all just pedantic argument and the part I quoted is you being demonstrably completely wrong.
> 
> EDIT: Gonna accuse me of ignoring that little edit you just made?



I put up a list of facts and I'm still wrong.

ITC: Blue confirmed for being delusional.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Freedan said:


> I put up a list of facts and I'm still wrong.
> 
> ITC: Blue confirmed for being delusional.





> That's hard to happen when riot police have their shields to stop that from happening. And that normally happens in huge crowds where a clear side isn't defined anyways.


Is not a fact. It is your dumb opinion.


> Stop protesters from getting violent by getting violent first. Makes sense.


Is not a fact, it is your dumb IMPLIED opinion.



> That's hypothetical until it actually happens and an officer is killed by protesters.
> 
> HINT: it hasn't actually happened.


Is fucking completely wrong. 



> What did happen is Abdullah C?mert dying from a tear gas canister blowing in his face. And İrfan Tuna dying due to overexposure to tear gas. And a good list of injuries AGAIN due to tear gas canisters. It doesn't look like the number of protesters is making a great deal of difference no matter how you put it.


Are facts but they're not in contest so they're fucking irrelevant.


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## Roman (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> Is not a fact. It is your dumb opinion.
> Is not a fact, it is your dumb IMPLIED opinion.







Blue said:


> Is fucking completely wrong.







Blue said:


> Are facts but they're not in contest so they're fucking irrelevant.



It's only irrelevant because it's not convenient to you. It's a fact that most injuries that have taken place are the direct result of the use of tear gas, not to mention a number of deaths. It's hard to deny tear gas is dangerous when the facts speak for themselves. I wonder how you do it.


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## Keile (Jun 17, 2013)

So can anyone tell me what precisely these people are protesting for and against?


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 17, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The point of tear gas is to discourage rioting. It's not too dangerous to keep people off the streets and it doesn't have the mortality rate of bullets, tasers or rubber bullets or even beating people.
> 
> So I would say it makes more sense than the alternative.



That's unless you start aiming for peoples heads with the canisters, or use a fuckton of teargas inside buildings, including infirmaries


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> No, they aren't.



Yesterday, I got up, went to the balcony. Took a deep breath and all of a sudden my throat and eyes started burning, I had to run inside. Turns out that police used tear gas against some people who hid in a shopping mall near where I live.

Lots of kids were hit by that same shit that I indirectly inhaled.

Tear gas is maybe not as violent as beating people shitless with batons(which the police has been also doing), but it is still a violent act against non violent groups.


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## Blue (Jun 17, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yesterday, I got up, went to the balcony. Took a deep breath and all of a sudden my throat and eyes started burning, I had to run inside. Turns out that police used tear gas against some people who hid in a shopping mall near where I live.
> 
> Lots of kids were hit by that same shit that I indirectly inhaled.
> 
> Tear gas is maybe not as violent as beating people shitless with batons(which the police has been also doing), but it is still a violent act against non violent groups.



With your close proximity to Syria, you should really know better.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> That's unless you start aiming for peoples heads with the canisters, or use a fuckton of teargas inside buildings, including infirmaries


Well it's use only as directed...firing the canisters at people is pretty cruel. And just the kind of shit I would expect.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 17, 2013)

Blue said:


> With your close proximity to Syria, you should really know better.



I don't know what you mean by that. Probably neither do you.


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## Chelydra (Jun 17, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't know what you mean by that. Probably neither do you.



You must not be aware of Assad's usage off chemical weapons then


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## Elim Rawne (Jun 17, 2013)

The protests at Taksim have given way to this 



Fucking surreal


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 17, 2013)

Chelydra said:


> You must not be aware of Assad's usage off chemical weapons then



What does it have anything to do with what I said ?


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## Blur (Jun 17, 2013)

But guys, think about those bussinessmen who are left without another place to suck money out of people. 
Who needs a park when you can have money? Its all green anyway.


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## Chelydra (Jun 17, 2013)

In other words you should have known that inhaling deeply in an area where chemical weapons, and non lethal chemicals(tear gas) have been used may not be a good idea....


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## Roman (Jun 18, 2013)

Which proves tear gas tactics aren't brutal how?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 18, 2013)

Chelydra said:


> In other words you should have known that inhaling deeply in an area where chemical weapons, and non lethal chemicals(tear gas) have been used may not be a good idea....



Is this directed @ me ?

How the fuck am I supposed to know whether they used tear gas or not ?


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## Deleted member 84471 (Jun 20, 2013)

Protests in Mersin at the opening of the Mediterranean Games were met with more gas bombs, water cannons and marble bullets, still going on right now. 

On a side note, this is just ..


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## Mael (Jun 27, 2013)

*Protocols of the Interest Rate Lobby*



> ISTANBUL  Thick, boisterous crowds poured into Kazlicesme, a neighborhood miles away from Istanbul's city center, where Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, was due to deliver a speech at a rally on Sunday, June 16. Three weeks into a wave of anti-government demonstrations and riots that began as a small sit-in against the planned demolition of a small public park and quickly swelled into the biggest challenge to Erdogan's rule in years, the rally, dubbed "Respect for the National Will," was meant as a show of strength and defiance by the prime minister's supporters. To judge by the numbers alone, it did the job. By the time Erdogan began speaking, the crowds had reached an estimated 300,000. Pro-government media kindly put the figure at over a million.
> 
> Near Kennedy Avenue by the shore of the Marmara Sea, where the Turkish leader's supporters had been ferried in by hundreds of specially enlisted municipal buses, Kemal Karabacak, a craftsman, marched toward the rally site, flanked by his sister Emine and two neighbors. All four had arrived from Eyup, a conservative neighborhood best known as the burial place of one of the Prophet Muhammad's companions. All had donned flat paper facemasks featuring the image of a smiling Erdogan.
> 
> ...





:S


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