# What tier is War arc Kakashi?



## Maverick04 (Oct 31, 2017)

This is prior to the Rikudou DMS PS
And Kakashi doesn't have the kyuubi chakra amp from Naruto


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## Famouss (Oct 31, 2017)

Kakashi is most likely on the cusp of high kage, surely on the high end of mid kage at the least. His increased stamina and his Kamui speed feats speak for itself.

Reactions: Like 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Maverick04 (Oct 31, 2017)

Famouss said:


> Kakashi is most likely on the cusp of high kage, surely on the high end of mid kage at the least. His increased stamina and his Kamui speed feats speak for itself.


Above War Gaara and A4?


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Oct 31, 2017)

He's weaker than almost every Kage we have seen fight, so low Kage. 


Naruto
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Gengetsu/Muu
Tsunade
Old Hiruzen
Onoki
3rd Raikage
4th Raikage
War Arc Gaara 
War Arc Kakashi
Yagura
Mei
Rasa

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 5


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## Maverick04 (Oct 31, 2017)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> He's weaker than almost every Kage we have seen fight, so low Kage.
> 
> 
> Naruto
> ...


Well he did Kamui warp KCM2 Naruto who is faster than A4..So there is a high possibility that he could do that to A4 as well..I know his regular arsenal won't do jackshit against those above him in your list but Kamui makes a lot of difference..Moreover his stamina miraculously increased during the war arc (He fought the entire seven swordsmen, then engaged in a fight against Rinnegan+MS Obito and Jinchurikis)


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## Famouss (Oct 31, 2017)

RahulPK04 said:


> Above War Gaara and A4?


His War arc kamui warping feats, as well as his intellect and versatility, put him a slight notch above the Gokage individually, which is low-High kage tier.


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## Pumpkin Potion (Oct 31, 2017)

He is high kage tier. Sharigan 100 jutsus, on par with Obito took out the 7 Swordsmen with help.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pumpkin Potion (Oct 31, 2017)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> He's weaker than almost every Kage we have seen fight, so low Kage.
> 
> 
> Naruto
> ...


Please he destoryes most the the kages. Both Naruto and Sasuke pre 6 sage chakra. Hashimara he can take out with genjutsu.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## FlamingRain (Oct 31, 2017)

War Arc Kakashi really needs to be split up into like three characters.

Early Stages: Chakra levels still a concern, very cautious about the use of Kamui.

Later Stages: Kamui spam.

Late Stages: Sharingan doesn't see but like five feet away.

Don't ask me why that is, but imo a distinction ought to be made. Kakashi is a weird beast because his base ninja skills aren't much of a match for a lot of high tiers and yet Kamui is something so few can defend against. You either get a ton of "Kamui gg" answers to Kakashi vs threads, or you get "[insert event here] happens before Kamui so gg Kakashi". Which one is more likely depends on which Kakashi we're talking about.

If we're simply talking about the most dangerous Kakashi outside of DMS, then that Kakashi is at least within the range of the upper third of Kage and so could be considered "high Kage".

Reactions: Like 4 | Disagree 2


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## Santoryu (Oct 31, 2017)

@Flamin

I dont think a distinction needs to be made to the extent you're implying as Kakashi's eye detoriation started a very long time ago. In essence a BoS Kakashi has better eyesight than Pain arc Kakashi but we know which variation can use kamui more efficiently. It was only in the battle with Madara that his eye detoriation significantly affected his output. I understand your point from a narrative point of view as this argument would fly for MS Sasuke and Itachi too, but from a battledome perspective I think it's fair to judge the character at their best. I seldom see people citing the blind version of MS Sasuke when ranking him. Kakashi's base skills are also impressive and balanced in terms of the basic ninja arts. They are further augmented by the Sharingan. A lot of powerful characters would suffer if you strip them off their trump cards (Minato and Sharingan Obito for example).

Anyway,  I'm of the opinion Kakashi has a decisive edge over any of the gokage but is a little weaker than a living Minato. People would probably term that high-kage. Kakashi is more well rounded than the gokage, his trump card usurps theirs, and he has a herculean tactical advantage.

And regarding the different state of minds of Kakashi, they were dictated by Kakashi's opponents, situation and ultimately the narrative.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Pumpkin Potion (Oct 31, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> War Arc Kakashi really needs to be split up into like three characters.
> 
> Early Stages: Chakra levels still a concern, very cautious about the use of Kamui.
> 
> ...



Kakashi was kage level when he was a anbu at age 14.


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## The_Conqueror (Oct 31, 2017)

Kakashis kamui usage is just a example of power inflation during the war arc 

Some days before he had trouble after using kamui(body couldnot move  to save sakura)  against sasuke and himself asked Sakura to take care of his body after the next shot when he planned to use it against Tobi


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 31, 2017)

Professor83 said:


> Kakashis kamui usage is just a example of power inflation during the war arc
> 
> Some days before he had trouble after using kamui(body couldnot move  to save sakura)  against sasuke and himself asked Sakura to take care of his body after the next shot when he planned to use it against Tobi



But he did not do a regular warp, but warped away 2x arrows that are the size of multiple humans.

Then he was goinf to perform another human sized warp.

Seems about right to me.


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## Bonly (Oct 31, 2017)

I'd place him in the Mid Kage lvl tier. Kamui is good but it's not good enough to bump him up a tier when he needs to get close to get a good shot with it and with his lack of a good defense I just see him on the same general lvl as people like Deidara and Kakuzu and Gai etc.


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## Gohara (Oct 31, 2017)

Around High Kage level at most in my opinion.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Pumpkin Potion (Oct 31, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Around High Kage level at most in my opinion.


High kage seems right to me.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Bonly (Oct 31, 2017)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> He's weaker than almost every Kage we have seen fight, so low Kage.
> 
> 
> Naruto
> ...



How is Kakashi stronger then Yagura who was a prefect Jin?


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## FearIsGood (Oct 31, 2017)

Bonly said:


> How is Kakashi stronger then Yagura who was a prefect Jin?


Same could be said for everyone else above him not named Hashirama or Tobirama. Why just Kakashi?


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## Bonly (Oct 31, 2017)

FearIsGood said:


> Same could be said for everyone else above him not named Hashirama or Tobirama. Why just Kakashi?



Because the thread is about Kakashi and his placing so I'm just focusing on him


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 31, 2017)

low kage level


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Oct 31, 2017)

Bonly said:


> How is Kakashi stronger then Yagura who was a prefect Jin?


Because Yagura and his Bijuu both had lackluster performance in their limited opportunities, didn’t have anyone who stated he was particularly strong for a Kage, and being directly controlled by somebody else is probably the most disrespectful thing that has happened to a Kage level ninja in the series. I also don’t typically rate Bijuu who aren’t the Kyuubi as highly as most on the board. I could see Yagura being above Kakashi, but don’t see direct proof of it.


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## Bonly (Oct 31, 2017)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Because Yagura and his Bijuu both had lackluster performance in their limited opportunities,



I don't know, in his limited one fight he managed to create a complete copy of both KCM Naruto that was holding a Rasengan and Killer B with his swords which has quite a bit of potential and in V2 he hit KCM Naruto with coral that Naruto wasn't able to destroy slowing him down which is pretty neat. His one fight may have been limited but he has potential 



> didn’t have anyone who stated he was particularly strong for a Kage,



To be fair his name was thrown around for people who could control Bijuu such as Hashi and Madara and Killer B so the fact that he was able to do such in itself should note him as a strong Kage.



> and being directly controlled by somebody else is probably the most disrespectful thing that has happened to a Kage level ninja in the series.



True



> I also don’t typically rate Bijuu who aren’t the Kyuubi as highly as most on the board. I could see Yagura being above Kakashi, but don’t see direct proof of it.



A perfect Jin is suppose to be better then just a Bijuu by itself but I just find it hard that any perfect Jin would be below Kakashi when the ones we've seen have shown to be above his paygrade

Reactions: Like 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Oct 31, 2017)

Mid Kage level, in the same tier as Guy, Kisame, Deidara, Kakuzu, ect.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## LostSelf (Nov 1, 2017)

Near high kage considering not much of the kage level shinobis can counter Kamui and War Arc Kakashi showed great mastery with it. 

We could say stuff about blind Kakashi or something like that. But we don't use blind Itachi for threads, neither one armed Jiraiya and generally, even though i've seen people mention it, the Raikage is not said if he has one or two arms and Tsunade and Sakura always has the same amount of chakra stored in their seal even when Tsunade lost it.

So out of this, my point was focused on War Arc non blind Kakashi.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## BigHomie89 (Aug 25, 2019)

Maverick04 said:


> Above War Gaara and A4?


Yes if u factor in intelligence

Reactions: Like 1


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## goombanthime (Aug 25, 2019)

3T Kakashi is mid kage by the war, being able to physically contend with enemy on the level of KCM Naruto level, matching the performance of sixth gate's Guy and having the stamina to spam attack that incapacitated him before after a few use.

MS Kakashi is firmly a high kage, Kamui has never been countered by anybody other than Obito and when every other fight he's been in since he was tired from that fight

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Aug 25, 2019)

Very strong mid kage. Extremely close to high kage but not quite there. He’s just below Tsuande. He seriously is like 5mm from high kage but I can’t place him in there.


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## Artistwannabe (Aug 25, 2019)

Mid-Kage


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## Shazam (Aug 25, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Mid Kage level, in the same tier as Guy, Kisame, Deidara, Kakuzu, ect.



This.


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## Stonaem (Aug 25, 2019)

His kamui doesnt work properly on living targets, so i dont give him the Kamui GG benefit

I have him, including his ability to self-warp, at the top of low kage, just below the Sound Four.

Leader/Mid Kage (my TTS pronounces this as cage):
Deidara, Tobito, Sane Bijuu
. . . 
Bottom of Leader
Zetsu Duo (experience, chakra copying, enemy capture, much more)
Yamato (Hashi boosts)
Hinata (there's a reason Naruto didn't kiss Sakura)
Hebi Sasuke
Ino (she can take your leader and vice, make them kill each other etc)
MS Sasuke (stamina issues)

*Skilled Tier *
This one is the breakthrough into kage level, mainly for those who lack much but are clearly above normal

Sound Four (as a group)
*MS Kakashi (covers the basics of every major category of arts)*
Kabuto
Juugo
Temari (scale)
Suigetsu
Pakura (death touch)
Shino (the batman of the K10)
Hidan (besides his own merit, his potential as
a teammate is epic)

He's still a conventional guy who cant do much to special characters (the definition of kage). His Kamui isn't as broken as it could've been based on feats


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## Turrin (Aug 25, 2019)

He took 12 hours to beat 3 Jonin with heavy support. Kakashi is top Jonin level


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## JayK (Aug 25, 2019)

He is a solid Mid Kage, above the Akatsuki goons due to his potential hax and really solid reactions but below SM Jiraiya and Orochimaru who'm are at the top of the bracket for me.


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## Symmetry (Aug 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He took 12 hours to beat 3 Jonin with heavy support. Kakashi is top Jonin level




I asked you this in another thread because I just want confirmation, but how do you know it’s 12 hours?


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## Grinningfox (Aug 25, 2019)

He’s a  lowkage with a Highkage tool so Midkage is the best place to have him


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## Turrin (Aug 25, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I asked you this in another thread because I just want confirmation, but how do you know it’s 12 hours?


Because they start fighting during the day, day becomes the night, and then it turns day again before they defeat Fuguki, at which point they say they defeated 3 of them. So it was at least 12 hours


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## Speedyamell (Aug 25, 2019)

He's at best mid kage level. And not even the top of it. Mid kage like Mei, rasa, WA gaara, Sasori, Konan are all people who trash him. Putting him in the middle of the tier at best.


Battledome kakashi is Demi god tier though.. he warps the gokage  all at once before they can blink.


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## Symmetry (Aug 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Because they start fighting during the day, day becomes the night, and then it turns day again before they defeat Fuguki, at which point they say they defeated 3 of them. So it was at least 12 hours




Wait so we see them fighting at day, then we see them fight at night then back at day? If so then that’s bad man. Like that might move kakashi down in my list.


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## Turrin (Aug 25, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Wait so we see them fighting at day, then we see them fight at night then back at day? If so then that’s bad man. Like that might move kakashi down in my list.


Yes, Kakashi division engages the swordsman on the first day of war, then night falls, and then the next day we see Kakashi finally seal Fuguki; and he’s like 2-3 more to go.


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## Symmetry (Aug 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes, Kakashi division engages the swordsman on the first day of war, then night falls, and then the next day we see Kakashi finally seal Fuguki; and he’s like 2-3 more to go.








Wow...that’s bad man. Like that moves him down a decent amount for me. I had him at like the strongest or second mid kage in the series, but a very high mid kage like Kisame would shit on these Zabuza level ninja. 

That’s kind of depressing


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 25, 2019)

Mid Kage seems about right. I’d place him around Kisames Level. Above most of the Akatsuki. I’d probably put him above Base Jiraiya, but beneath SM Jiraiya and Orochimaru.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 25, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Wow...that’s bad man. Like that moves him down a decent amount for me. I had him at like the strongest or second mid kage in the series, but a very high mid kage like Kisame would shit on these Zabuza level ninja.
> 
> That’s kind of depressing


I wouldn’t think to much about it. This happened for story related reasons. It’s the same reason that Kakashi’s stamina increased dramatically for the War. Rusty Kakashi was already a bit stronger than Zabuza at the beginning of the series. After that his Sharingan, intelligence, stamina and chakra reserves increased. In all areas except his intelligence they increased dramatically.


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## Architect (Aug 26, 2019)

Low demi god


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## Zembie (Aug 26, 2019)

Mid-Kage for me. On the same level as Base Jiraiya, above Tsunade and Kisame.


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## 僕がキラだ (Aug 26, 2019)

He's rather fairly ranked. I go with most sentiments. Base Jiraiya, below SM.
 At lowest Hebi Sasuke, Kisame level at best.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Wow...that’s bad man. Like that moves him down a decent amount for me. I had him at like the strongest or second mid kage in the series, but a very high mid kage like Kisame would shit on these Zabuza level ninja.
> 
> That’s kind of depressing


It’s actually even worse when you realize that at the start of that fight Kakashi said he was going to rampage because he was so pissed:

So he was clearly going all out.

And he had the help of Lee, Sai, and Gai; yet still took so long to defeat 3 Swordsman, one of which was handicapped (Fuguki the final one they defeated didn’t have his sword):

While Kakashi was actually empowered by Zabuza sword lol

—-

Kakashi is Top Jonin, a lot of Top Jonin have one strong hac technique or ability set.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Maverick04 said:


> Well he did Kamui warp KCM2 Naruto who is faster than A4..So there is a high possibility that he could do that to A4 as well..I know his regular arsenal won't do jackshit against those above him in your list but Kamui makes a lot of difference..Moreover his stamina miraculously increased during the war arc (He fought the entire seven swordsmen, then engaged in a fight against Rinnegan+MS Obito and Jinchurikis)


I wouldn't say it was a miraculous growth. His sharingan is what drains him and throughout the manga we've seen him improve his sharingan; finally, by the war arc, Tobi admitted he truly honed and mastered his sharingan.

A thing to note for KCM2 Naruto though is that while he is "faster" than A4, he may or may not have been flying through the air at A4's max speed. He was probably flying somewhat close though, or so I'd think, or maybe faster idk.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He took 12 hours to beat 3 Jonin with heavy support. Kakashi is top Jonin level


Anyone who says things like this makes me think they're a trash poster, even if they're not when they've broken out of genjutsu.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Anyone who says things like this makes me think they're a trash poster, even if they're not when they've broken out of genjutsu.


So anyone who states facts is a trash poster simply because your in denial of how Kakashi actually performs, in favor of how you believe he should perform. Please spare me your Kakashi D riding

—-

Kakashi main battles that he took point on in the WA was against Skilled Jonin and it took an extremely long time for him to prevail against each of them. Kishi is obviously placing him on Jonin level. 

Whenever he went up against a stronger enemy it was in a support capacity while other strongest Ninja like Naruto took point.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So anyone who states facts is a trash poster simply because your in denial of how Kakashi actually performs, in favor of how you believe he should perform. Please spare me your Kakashi D riding
> 
> —-
> 
> ...


It's because you make it sound like you're blatantly ignoring all his other valid WA feats, which is quite typical of you.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> It's because you make it sound like you're blatantly ignoring all his other valid WA feats, which is quite typical of you.


Your the one ignoring Kakashi longest battle in the War which was against the Swordsman. I don’t ignore any of Kakashi feats from the War; I just find them all to be grossly exaggerated by you fanboys. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard he fought V2 Jins as some sort of justification for Kakashi level being higher then the Mist Swordsman, even though all he did was have his Raikiri easily deflected and cut some chakra arms while facing a single V2 Jinchuuriki (Gobi). I don’t know how many times I hear Kamui is justification for him being above Top Jonin even though plenty of Top Jonin have hax Techniques like Dan (whose Spirit Jutsu is even more hax then Kamui). I don’t know how many times I’ve heard Kakashi Kamui feats in the WA/Kages arc show he is going to warp blitz most High Tiers, due to a subjective guesstimate of how fast Kakashi fans believe Arrows and Chakra arms should be, when in reality the WA clearly stated and showed  Jonin like Kitsuchi can cast their Jutsu faster then Kamui; and Jonin (like Kakashi) can toss a Kunai faster then Kamui.

The entire argument for Kakashi being above Top Jonin is based around cherry picking out of context feats and hyping them up to the highest level possible; while ignoring how he actually performed. No Kage in the manga would struggle to defeat 3 Swordsman for 12 hours with the back up of Gai, Lee, and Sai, while going all out. Yet let’s pretend he would easily BFR a Kage, that make zero sense and all you fanboys know it deep down


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Wow...that’s bad man. Like that moves him down a decent amount for me. I had him at like the strongest or second mid kage in the series, but a very high mid kage like Kisame would shit on these Zabuza level ninja.
> 
> That’s kind of depressing


@Santoryu, a decent poster just got indoctrinated by Turrin's lewdness.

Don't fall for these shambolic antics, @Orochimaru op.

Turrin clearly is downplaying both the _edo_ SSM, the other enemies, and the white zetsu army.


Turrin said:


> Your the one ignoring Kakashi longest battle in the War which was against the Swordsman. I don’t ignore any of Kakashi feats from the War; I just find them all to be grossly exaggerated by you fanboys. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard he fought V2 Jins as some sort of justification for Kakashi level being higher then the Mist Swordsman, even though all he did was have his Raikiri easily deflected and cut some chakra arms while facing a single V2 Jinchuuriki (Gobi). I don’t know how many times I hear Kamui is justification for him being above Top Jonin even though plenty of Top Jonin have hax Techniques like Dan (whose Spirit Jutsu is even more hax then Kamui). I don’t know how many times I’ve heard Kakashi Kamui feats in the WA/Kages arc show he is going to warp blitz most High Tiers, due to a subjective guesstimate of how fast Kakashi fans believe Arrows and Chakra arms should be, when in reality the WA clearly stated and showed  Jonin like Kitsuchi can cast their Jutsu faster then Kamui; and Jonin (like Kakashi) can toss a Kunai faster then Kamui.


.

I'll try to respond to the other points later.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> @Santoryu, a decent poster just got indoctrinated by Turrin's lewdness.
> 
> Don't fall for these shambolic antics, @Orochimaru op.
> 
> ...


Lol just stop that’s his hair; and even if it wasn’t it did zero meaningful damage


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Lol just stop that’s his hair; and even if it wasn’t it did zero meaningful damage


Unlike KCM Naruto who was barely able to defend against _one_ V2 Jin, Kakashi actually held off one without much trouble.

You also claimed that Kakashi "cut some chakra arms while facing a single V2 Jinchuuriki (Gobi)" - he actually cut off the chakra arms of _three_ V2 Jinchuuriki that had bloodlusted killing intent (that boxed them in before they even had noticed), and then, together with Gai, they held off four V2 Jins + Saiken for an extended period of time. This period of time, you always downplay, but I've got the list if you need a refresher.



Turrin said:


> Lol just stop that’s his hair; and even if it wasn’t it did zero meaningful damage


Also it's not just his hair, it's his V2 Jin cloaked-hair... so, you're factually incorrect here.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Unlike KCM Naruto who was barely able to defend against _one_ V2 Jin, Kakashi actually held off one without much trouble.
> 
> You also claimed that Kakashi "cut some chakra arms while facing a single V2 Jinchuuriki (Gobi)" - he actually cut off the chakra arms of _three_ V2 Jinchuuriki that had bloodlusted killing intent (that boxed them in before they even had noticed), and then, together with Gai, they held off four V2 Jins + Saiken for an extended period of time. This period of time, you always downplay, but I've got the list if you need a refresher.
> 
> ...


KCM Naruto was exhausted from fighting on several different battlefields at once. KCM Naruto clone did better against Kages then Kakashi did against Jonin swordsman, if you want to really compare them, so just stop with that nonsense

It was just Gobi; and just chakra arms. It’s not impressive

As far as the off panel stuff goes; this is the perfect example of bias. Hyping up Kakashi and Gai surviving against V2 Jin’s for a short period of time accomplishing nothing. But ignoring the 12 hours it took for a rampaging Kakashi to beat Jonin swordsman (one of which was handicapped) off panel.

No it’s hair and drawing error, we saw Raikiri bounce of a V2 shroud so we know it didn’t hurt Ukataka.


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## Jad (Aug 26, 2019)

High kage I recon, around Itachi's level.

Kakashi was there for almost all the pinnacle moments in the war and fought every danger head on, and we are talking about Beasts to Obito to Madara and everything in between. Good performance and even better leadership. Just about everyone knows him, and all the villians respect his power and persuasion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Jad said:


> High kage I recon, around Itachi's level.
> 
> Kakashi was there for almost all the pinnacle moments in the war and fought every danger head on, and we are talking about Beasts to Obito to Madara and everything in between. Good performance and even better leadership. Just about everyone knows him, and all the villians respect his power and persuasion.


Struggles with 3  Jonin Swordsman for 12 hours but yeah he’s Itachi level whose effortlessly beat stronger Jonin in a matter of moments


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## Jad (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Struggles with 3  Jonin Swordsman for 12 hours but yeah he’s Itachi level whose effortlessly beat stronger Jonin in a matter of moments


When we're the Swordsman considered Jounin?

No one knows what happen during their fight. It was all off paneled. You're better off building an arguement against Kakashi using onscreen battles. Not going to argue you based on an offpanel battle in which we have no clue as to what difficulty Kishimoto wanted it to be.

Probably let the Anime team fill the void on those offpanel battles for all I know.


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 26, 2019)

Kakashi is low kage, also known as the "overrated as fuck" tier......at least in this case.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Jad said:


> When we're the Swordsman considered Jounin?


So Fuguki without even his sword is above Jonin level?  Just stop

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> KCM Naruto was exhausted from fighting on several different battlefields at once.


No he wasn't. 

KCM Naruto:

Fought V1 Jins
Took a smacking from V2 Jins
Fought the 5 Tails V2 Jinchuuriki
Used KCM to not be eaten by Son Goku
Pushed KCM to max, and used shadow clone sage mode to push out chakra rod, which used multi shadow clone jutsu
Now, I don't know if going Biju Mode granted him much of a chakra boost _*after*_ _the 5-minute_ _time limit_, but assuming he exhausted the energy granted by Biju Mode for _that _time interval, KCM Naruto then fought Tobi and even the skies grew dark.


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## Jad (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So Fuguki without even his sword is above Jonin level?  Just stop


I'm not arguing you about an offpanel set of battles. Try arguing on actual onscreen events. Brainstorming how difficult and what transpired offpanel gets us no where. Won't respond if you center your arguement on an offpanel battle. Have better shit to do, got 10 years on this forum, I've done my tour.


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> @Santoryu, a decent poster just got indoctrinated by Turrin's lewdness.
> 
> Don't fall for these shambolic antics, @Orochimaru op.
> 
> ...





I can’t exaclty remember where but I believe it was stated that Kisame or at least his sword was the strongest of the seven ninja swordsmen. And in all honesty Zabuza has more hype for him then the three swordsmen Kakashi and co fought, and one of them didn’t even have their swords. So even if all three of these guys are Zabuza level, it shouldn’t be taking 12 hours. It definetly locks him out of high kage for sure for me. 


Any of the three sanin would dispatch of three Zabuza level opponents on their own pretty easily, the raikage would destroy them, gaara would decimate them, even Mei would probably beat them.


I still think he’s a mid kage because imo there’s no way kakashi could survive against Kakazu and not be mid kage, someone like Asuma would be torn to shreds by Kakazu, but like.....


12+ hours to beat three Zabuza level opponents with assistance? Hell even Gai if he went seven gates would murk all three of these ninja no difficulty.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> No he wasn't.
> 
> KCM Naruto:
> 
> ...


So your just ignoring the fact that he split his chakra among all of those clones prior to that battle? And was so exhausted because of it he couldn’t create another KCM clone, even prior to that battle?


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Jad said:


> I'm not arguing you about an offpanel set of battles. Try arguing on actual onscreen events. Brainstorming how difficult and what transpired offpanel gets us no where. Won't respond if you center your arguement on an offpanel battle. Have better shit to do, got 10 years on this forum, I've done my tour.


So your just ignoring it because it doesn’t fit your agenda; k concession accepted


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## Quipchaque (Aug 26, 2019)

Pumpkin Potion said:


> He is high kage tier. Sharigan 100 jutsus, on par with Obito took out the 7 Swordsmen with help.



He is definitely not on par with Obito. Obito can spam Kamui like a mad man and his Rinnegan abilities with the six paths of Pain were about to solo Gai and Kaka. Kakashi beats sharingan Obito for sure but any version above that is too much.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I can’t exaclty remember where but I believe it was stated that Kisame or at least his sword was the strongest of the seven ninja swordsmen. And in all honesty Zabuza has more hype for him then the three swordsmen Kakashi and co fought, and one of them didn’t even have their swords. So even if all three of these guys are Zabuza level, it shouldn’t be taking 12 hours. It definetly locks him out of high kage for sure for me.
> 
> 
> Any of the three sanin would dispatch of three Zabuza level opponents on their own pretty easily, the raikage would destroy them, gaara would decimate them, even Mei would probably beat them.
> ...


What Character who actually held the Kage title would take 12 hours to defeat 3 swordsman with backup from Gai, Lee, and Sai? He’s not Mid Kage ether, he’s low or not Kage level as no Kage would have that difficulty


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I can’t exaclty remember where but I believe it was stated that Kisame or at least his sword was the strongest of the seven ninja swordsmen. And in all honesty Zabuza has more hype for him then the three swordsmen Kakashi and co fought, and one of them didn’t even have their swords. So even if all three of these guys are Zabuza level, it shouldn’t be taking 12 hours. It definetly locks him out of high kage for sure for me.


What does the sword have to do with anything?

Kakashi didn't fight 3 swordsmen alone. Also it wasn't just 3 swordsmen. There were others too. Gai mentions just how many White Zetsu, for example, there were.

They are reanimated shinobi who feel no pain, and regenerate, and basically have a infinitely resupplying store of chakra.

*Important question*: If you think they are weak or not that strong (since you say it shouldn't be taking 12 hours), why were both armies cut in half in just the first day? The Shinobi alliance went from 80,000 shinobi strong to 40,000. The White Zetsu army went from 100,000 to 50,000.



Orochimaru op said:


> Any of the three sanin would dispatch of three Zabuza level opponents on their own pretty easily, the raikage would destroy them, gaara would decimate them, even Mei would probably beat them.


They are not Zabuza-level opponents. They are reanimated shinobi on a killing spree who were already strong - making them stronger than Zabuza's level, and by quite some margin. 

Look how weary some of our characters look after the first day. Turrin has fed you this stupid notion that they were battling easy opponents.


*Spoiler*: __ 











Orochimaru op said:


> I still think he’s a mid kage because imo there’s no way kakashi could survive against Kakazu and not be mid kage, someone like Asuma would be torn to shreds by Kakazu, but like.....


If you consider Tobi high kage, then Kakashi is definitely high kage. Tobi himself, and SM 1-Rinnegan Alive Madara, praised Kakashi.



Orochimaru op said:


> 12+ hours to beat three Zabuza level opponents with assistance? Hell even Gai if he went seven gates would murk all three of these ninja no difficulty.


Where did you get this idea that they are easy? In the first day, Zabuza used his mist which made things sour.

So many shinobi died.


*Spoiler*: __ 











Do you know that Kakashi's group is one of the main physical force? As they are the "Short- and Mid-Range Battle Division", they have to deal with some of the more brutally tougher opponents. You can see this is true because of how the enemy fights (I have put scans above.)



Turrin said:


> So your just ignoring the fact that he split his chakra among all of those clones prior to that battle? And was so exhausted because of it he couldn’t create another KCM clone, even prior to that battle?


You claimed he was exhausted, I showed you evidence that he was fighting for quite some time, even until it went to the evening. And he created a KCM clone after his Biju Mode ran out. He also created a shadow clone that used multi shadow clone. I fail to see why he _couldn't_ create a KCM clone. It's more appropriate to reason that he _didn't_ see it as a viable strategy. I don't remember him being exhausted, per se - perhaps it would benefit us to clarify what "" means. I believe Gyuki clarified that Naruto _would_ have been exhausted (if memory serves), but that he wasn't because Kurama stopped taking his chakra.



Turrin said:


> What Character who actually held the Kage title would take 12 hours to defeat 3 swordsman with backup from Gai, Lee, and Sai? He’s not Mid Kage ether, he’s low or not Kage level as no Kage would have that difficulty


Why don't you re-read the manga? There were others among the 3 swordsmen, and where did you get that 12-hour figure from?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> What does the sword have to do with anything?
> 
> Kakashi didn't fight 3 swordsmen alone. Also it wasn't just 3 swordsmen. There were others too. Gai mentions just how many White Zetsu, for example, there were.
> 
> ...





The allied shinobi forced lost a lot of lives because the average shinobi is iruka level, so naturally in the presence of people of Zabuza’z caliber they would be torn to shreds. 

Many fodder dying doesn’t mean the opponent is difficult for someone who isn’t fodder, and kakashi is certainly not fodder (or jounin level. I disagree with Turin on this one)

And Kakashi’s team was just one that went to battle too, there were countless iruka level ninja running around having zero business in the fights they were in and got murked while the named characters hard carried. 


Praise doesn’t mean anything really, I mean it let’s us know that the ppl are strong but not to what extent, Orochimaru was praised by Hashirama more then Minato, by we all know Minato is stronger then Orochimaru. 

I would assume the strongest member would use the strongest sword, seems only natural. Regardless there is nothing to place these guys much higher then Zabuza level. Maybe because of the Edo hey are like three hidans, but any of the people I listed would tear through three hidans like butter. 

But it doesn’t move him down a tier for me, one cannot stand up to deva path and Kakazu and be anything less then mid kage.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

@MadScientist

That’s after Kurama began to cooperate, so it’s irrelevant. Prior to that point; you know the point where you saying KCM struggled with the Jin; he was low on chakra; we know this because he tries to make another KCM clone right before that battle and can’t do it. So yes he was exhausted. Even still your claim that the Kakashi did better then him against the Jin is nonsense; he actually managed to defeat Roshi, while Kakashi accomplished nothing against the Jin.

The battle with the swordsman started on the first day, it went to night, and then day again

And there was an entire division also backing up Kakashi I’m not counting so don’t even give me that shit about backup as it only makes Kakashi, Lee, Gai, and Sai look worse


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> The allied shinobi forced lost a lot of lives because the average shinobi is iruka level, so naturally in the presence of people of Zabuza’z caliber they would be torn to shreds.
> 
> Many fodder dying doesn’t mean the opponent is difficult for someone who isn’t fodder, and kakashi is certainly not fodder (or jounin level. I disagree with Turin on this one)
> 
> ...


Who do you consider Low-Kage and Jonin level?


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Who do you consider Low-Kage and Jonin level?




Jounin level is like kurenai, and high jounin is Asuma. Low kage is like hidan, Darui and sorts


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Jounin level is like kurenai, and high jounin is Asuma. Low kage is like hidan, Darui and sorts


Why do you think Hidan and Darui are Low-Kage? Why is Kakashi Mid Kage?

I consider all of them Jonin, because I don’t see them on the level of the weakest Kages, Mei, Ei, Rasa, BoS Gaara

To me it’s more like Asuma and Kurunai are Jonin; and Kakashi, Hidan, and Darui are Top Jonin


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## t0xeus (Aug 26, 2019)

Upper low-kage or bottom mid-kage depending on where you draw the line between these two


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Why do you think Hidan and Darui are Low-Kage? Why is Kakashi Mid Kage?
> 
> I consider all of them Jonin, because I don’t see them on the level of the weakest Kages, Mei, Ei, Rasa, BoS Gaara
> 
> To me it’s more like Asuma and Kurunai are Jonin; and Kakashi, Hidan, and Darui are Top Jonin




The akatsuki would not settle to recruit a jounin level ninja, just not happening. They have a mission to fight actual biju, they can’t have any jounin in their ranks, especially when some of their meme wars include itachi and Orochimaru and pain. 

Darui has some good showings, and he’s also an actual kage later, and we never see him train. Regardless, he would imo slap Asuma, Zabuza and such. 


Any of the people I mentioned though wouldn’t last too long against Kakazu, which Kakashi did, and this is before he had his stamina buff. 

Kakashi held his own decently well against Kakazu while he was a weaker version of himself, the stamina held him back, so imo was arc kakashi is right above Kakazu, but below Mei, deidara, and such.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> The akatsuki would not settle to recruit a jounin level ninja, just not happening. They have a mission to fight actual biju, they can’t have any jounin in their ranks, especially when some of their meme wars include itachi and Orochimaru and pain.
> 
> Darui has some good showings, and he’s also an actual kage later, and we never see him train. Regardless, he would imo slap Asuma, Zabuza and such.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure Akatsuki doesn’t care about someone level just their ability to capture tailed beasts. Which means they would definitely take a Jonin whose style is well equipped for catching Tailed Beasts. Do you think they would turn down Yamato?

If Darui slaps Zabuza one of the strongest swordsman then how is Kakashi who struggles with the swordsman for hours above Darui? 

Hidan was stated to be able to survive Kakuzu rampages so we know he can last against him; and Darui seems equipped to do so as well.

So if he’s bellow Mei arguably the weakest Kage we’ve seen why would you consider him Mid-Kage


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Pretty sure Akatsuki doesn’t care about someone level just their ability to capture tailed beasts. Which means they would definitely take a Jonin whose style is well equipped for catching Tailed Beasts. Do you think they would turn down Yamato?
> 
> If Darui slaps Zabuza one of the strongest swordsman then how is Kakashi who struggles with the swordsman for hours above Darui?
> 
> ...




I rate Mei a lot higher then most. Darui would slap Zabuza, but swap kakashi for Darui against deva and deva imo is shitting on Darui. Hidan lasts because immortality against Kakazu, so he doesn’t count. 

The only thing that was stopping kakashi from beating Kakazu was stamina, and he doesn’t have a problem with that in the war.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I rate Mei a lot higher then most. Darui would slap Zabuza, but swap kakashi for Darui against deva and deva imo is shitting on Darui. Hidan lasts because immortality against Kakazu, so he doesn’t count.
> 
> The only thing that was stopping kakashi from beating Kakazu was stamina, and he doesn’t have a problem with that in the war.


Who do you think is the weakest person who actually held the Kage title then.

Deva would have slapped Kakashi too; if not for trying to keep Kakashi alive to get information on Naruto. Under that same circumstances Darui could lag awhile anyone could.

Hidan power is his immortality so of course that counts.

I don’t see how stamina is what stopped Kakasi; and I think Darui would do well against Kakuzi

Though I agree with a lot of your placements; I just would label the tiers differently


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> The allied shinobi forced lost a lot of lives because the average shinobi is iruka level, so naturally in the presence of people of Zabuza’z caliber they would be torn to shreds.


Is that why Sai is nearly gassed out by the second day? Is that why the Shinobi forces got cut in half? Is that why Kakashi and Gai are clearly fatigued and worn by the end of the second night? Is that why Gai (a taijutsu _master_) has to note that the White Zetsu army reinforcement number is so high? Is that why Neji (someone who has somewhat 360 degrees vision and Byakugan) got caught by a "mere" White Zetsu? 

Like I said, they are *not* in the presence of Zabuza's calibre. They are Edotensei. And they are the Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist. Do you understand how strong they are while reanimated?


*Spoiler*: _SSM_ 




The *Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist* was an organisation consisting of only the greatest   of their generation that  can produce. There can only be seven members at a time — hence the name. The swords of the Seven Swordsmen are passed down from generation to generation since the 's era, and are considered mystical. Together, the Seven Swordsmen are capable of bringing down an entire nation, and are regarded as being the strongest shinobi in the village behind the . 

*Swords*

: A bandaged double-handled sword that is capable of storing and emitting the user's  which can then take on . It is also called a "Twinsword".
: A sword consisting of a single-sided axe and a hammer joined by a length of chain. Said to be capable of crushing any and all defences. It is also called a "Bluntsword".
: Twin swords that are imbued with lightning . They are said to be the sharpest swords ever forged. They are also called "Thunderswords".
: A giant sword with a butcher-knife-like appearance, the wielder can use the semi-circle on the blade to decapitate an opponent's head, hence the name. The sword has an ability to regenerate using the iron absorbed from the blood of those it cuts down. It is also called a "Seversword".
: A sword in the shape of a needle with a long thin that resembles thread attached to it, which can be used to pierce enemies and "sew" them together in human bundles. It is also called a "Longsword".
: A sword that has a scroll full of explosive tags incorporated into it, lined up behind the blade, combining swordsmanship and explosions. It is also called a "Blastsword".





Add to that Jonin like Pakura who wield Scorch Style... Add to that Zabuza's mist. 



Orochimaru op said:


> Many fodder dying doesn’t mean the opponent is difficult for someone who isn’t fodder, and kakashi is certainly not fodder (or jounin level. I disagree with Turin on this one)


When you have top-tier jonin looking worn and every single battlefield is worn by the night, you know things had gotten real.



Orochimaru op said:


> And Kakashi’s team was just one that went to battle too, there were countless iruka level ninja running around having zero business in the fights they were in and got murked while the named characters hard carried.


And there were plenty of jonin levels as well that died in the service of their world. 



Orochimaru op said:


> Praise doesn’t mean anything really, I mean it let’s us know that the ppl are strong but not to what extent, Orochimaru was praised by Hashirama more then Minato, by we all know Minato is stronger then Orochimaru.


Hashirama praised Orochimaru in response to a specific thing; we know _clearly_ what he was referring to. So you shouldn't generalise and then cross-compare, especially when Hashirama _not_ praising Minato doesn't actually mean anything. Hashirama didn't praise Hagoromo - does that tell us something about Hagoromo? No. Minato already got enough praise anyway, e.g. from Tobirama. 

Kakashi Hatake was praised by Obito Uchiha, Madara Uchiha, Mighto Gai, Hagoromo Otsutsuki (and whoever else) for quite specific things. 



Orochimaru op said:


> I would assume the strongest member would use the strongest sword, seems only natural. Regardless there is nothing to place these guys much higher then Zabuza level. Maybe because of the Edo hey are like three hidans, but any of the people I listed would tear through three hidans like butter.


Suigetsu wielded the executioner blade and Sasuke wielded the blade of kusanagi (if I'm not mistaken). Just because you have the strongest tool, doesn't mean you're the strongest. And how do you define strongest tool anyway? Minato's FTG kunai are only as powerful as he is. In most cases, it's the character over the weapon. Hidan had a scythe, and Kakashi had a kunai. I don't get your logic. 

And who did you list? Kisame? 

I'm not too sure about him handling three Hidan's like butter. 



Orochimaru op said:


> But it doesn’t move him down a tier for me, one cannot stand up to deva path and Kakazu and be anything less then mid kage.


Kakashi could stand up to both of them though... If you're going to deny canon, I don't really know what to say. In fact, we have Pain's indirect admission of Kakashi's skill  and here's . Here's Kakuzu outlining how . Since PA, WA Kakashi went onto a completely different level.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That’s after Kurama began to cooperate, so it’s irrelevant.


No it's not irrelevant. _If_ BM _ran out_ (and of course it did), then Naruto (as far as I'm aware) could only be running on stamina he still had leftover - it would be what he had _regardless_ of Kurama's BM cooperation. Kurama stopped taking Naruto's chakra  (if I'm not mistaken).

You claimed that "KCM Naruto was exhausted from fighting on several different battlefields at once." After fighting Nagato and Itachi and sending off other clones, KCM Naruto had pretty much exhausted his chakra reserve in Kyuubi Chakra Mode - that's why he couldn't create another clone .

But time passes.

Naruto says that they need to keep going.

While  (while using KCM, btw), he is regaining chakra (of course). The only thing you can argue is that it wasn't much time, but that doesn't seem right, given that the  with Naruto breezing through the trees.



Turrin said:


> Prior to that point; you know the point where you saying KCM struggled with the Jin; he was low on chakra; we know this because he tries to make another KCM clone right before that battle and can’t do it. So yes he was exhausted.


If Naruto _risked_ another clone against these new enemies, that would be extremely risky. One wrong move and he's just lost a precious chunk of chakra. This would be his motive for _not_ wanting to resort to clones. Divying up his chakra would not be the wise thing to do, especially when they know that they have size on their side (Killer Bee's Hachibi form).

KCM Naruto may well have been low on chakra, but I do not think it was low enough that he couldn't have spared a KCM clone (_especially since time had passed_). Plus, his shadow clone chakra/mental energy and experience came back to him . Given that Naruto was confident he could form a clone before, it's likely he could form at least another by the time he got to Tobi.



Turrin said:


> Even still your claim that the Kakashi did better then him against the Jin is nonsense; he actually managed to defeat Roshi, while Kakashi accomplished nothing against the Jin.


Kakashi held off three V2 Jins whereas Naruto got smacked around by three. Do you not see the glaring difference here?

Also, another thing, in the time it could Kakashi to cut off six chakra arms, Naruto was still struggling trying not to get eaten.

Put this KCM Naruto in Kakashi's shoes, and see how he would like dealing with - not three, but _four _- V2 Jinchuuriki, plus Saiken.



Turrin said:


> The battle with the swordsman started on the first day, it went to night, and then day again


No, you claimed that "He took 12 hours to beat 3 Jonin with heavy support." and now you're backtracking to the _first _day. The 3 SSM were left to be dealt with on the _second_ day.

@Turrin, _where_ is this hours-count coming from?



Turrin said:


> And there was an entire division also backing up Kakashi I’m not counting so don’t even give me that shit about backup as it only makes Kakashi, Lee, Gai, and Sai look worse


Don't give me your tripe about not acknowledging the fact that, on the second day, they were up against multiple White Zetsu _plus_ *reanimated* highly skilled Seven Swordsmen who don't get tired or feel pain and can only be defeated in one fundamantal way - and that's sealing them - *and they had already fought against FOUR SEVEN SWORDSMEN PLUS OTHERS* just the day before which dragged on for the entire day.


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Is that why Sai is nearly gassed out by the second day? Is that why the Shinobi forces got cut in half? Is that why Kakashi and Gai are clearly fatigued and worn by the end of the second night? Is that why Gai (a taijutsu _master_) has to note that the White Zetsu army reinforcement number is so high? Is that why Neji (someone who has somewhat 360 degrees vision and Byakugan) got caught by a "mere" White Zetsu?
> 
> Like I said, they are *not* in the presence of Zabuza's calibre. They are Edotensei. And they are the Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist. Do you understand how strong they are while reanimated?
> 
> ...




You misinterpreted my ending, I said kakashi handled deva and Kakazu so he has to be at least midkage. 

Said Gai and kakashi were worn out for fighting ninja for 12 hours. Many fodder died. Many jounin died, but these swordsmen can be nothing more then hidan level because Zabuza has more hype then then, they are the same group as Zabuza, the only thing pushing them higher is Edo tensei. Ofc many jounin died when they are facing against immortal zombies’s. 


They are in the presence of Zabuza tier ninja who are Edo tensei, so basically hidan or low low kage level ninja. Its not that they aren’t a threat, they are, but they are not a threat to any high kage at all, Edo or no edo. 

Kisame would tear through three hidan as hidan has literally nothing to stop Kisame from drowning him with water, daikodan or basic shark water jutsu would rip hidan apart and hidan could do nothing about it. 1 hidan or three, Kisame AOE destroys him. 


Gai was also most likely in base, because if he wasn’t and used the gates he would have whiped the floor with everyone there, easily.

The most impressive thing we see these guys do on pannel if I remember is cut through some fodder ninja like butter, but Asuma did that in part one where he solo killed I believe 8 ninja at once no diff.


Me saying they are hidan level who is > Zabuza doesn’t mean they are weak in the grand scheme of things. As you yourself said these ninja were legends, and so was Zabuza. Even part one rusty kakashi was a legend and a powerhouse compared to the general populace of shinobi. 


But three Zabuza’s who are Edo tensei, or three hidans are not a problem to any high kage or even some mid kage. 


Regardless of this Kakashi is still a strong mid kage, above Kakazu with the stamina buff, but taking 12 hours to beat three hidan level opponents with assistance means he just ain’t high kage


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

@Turrin, I can accept that he may have been low on chakra, but not exhausted. He didn't appear to be exhausted.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> But three Zabuza’s who are Edo tensei, or three hidans are not a problem to any high kage or even some mid kage.


As Suigetsu can explain to you, "there have been other masters aside from just Kisame and Zabuza." Suigetsu goes on to explain _every blade_ they have, and he starts with the lightning edge blade.



They all had _unique weapons _and they work _well together in a team_, _don't get tired_, and they are _extremely difficult to seal_. 



Not sure how many times I have to repeat this, but it wasn't just three "Zabuza's" who were edo tensei. 
Add to that, the huge number of White Zetsu they had to deal with. 



Not only that, but the masters and everyone was worn by the dawn/morning.


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> As Suigetsu can explain to you, "there have been other masters aside from just Kisame and Zabuza." Suigetsu goes on to explain _every blade_ they have, and he starts with the lightning edge blade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Firstly one of them is at half strength as per your own scan since he doesn’t have sharksin, so that’s even worse

Also I know there have been many members but there is literally no reason to assume these guys are stronger then alive Zabuza besides them being Edo tensei which wouldn’t matter to any high kage. 

How do we know they work well. We don’t k so if all seven that were revived are all from the same generation of seven ninja swordsmen. 

They don’t tire, yes, but no high kage needs to outlast them, especially with backup. 

The white zesty thing is Gai jobbing because you and I both know Gai could just  go


*HIRUDORA!!!!!!!!!

*


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Firstly one of them is at half strength as per your own scan since he doesn’t have sharksin, so that’s even worse


Kakashi refuted this - he noted they all bought their weapons after all.



Orochimaru op said:


> Also I know there have been many members but there is literally no reason to assume these guys are stronger then alive Zabuza besides them being Edo tensei which wouldn’t matter to any high kage.


Who are these high kage of yours?



Orochimaru op said:


> How do we know they work well. We don’t k so if all seven that were revived are all from the same generation of seven ninja swordsmen.


They are the SSM and are only allowed to have 7 members, meaning they're a tight-knit group. The fact they're doing so well against Kakashi's squad, someone who was praised for his leadership by a God of Shinobi, is evidence enough of their power. 



Orochimaru op said:


> They don’t tire, yes, but no high kage needs to outlast them, especially with backup.


What high kage are these? I'd really like to know.



Orochimaru op said:


> The white zesty thing is Gai jobbing because you and I both know Gai could just  go
> 
> *HIRUDORA!!!!!!!!!*


No because he needed to maintain his stamina for what came later. If he wore up his body now, instead of utilising his resources effectively (other ninja's powers), then he'd not have been as effective as he was later.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

@Orochimaru op 
You're also comparing high kages to a dude who didn't even use his deadliest move - Kamui - because he needed to conserve that for later.


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Kakashi refuted this - he noted they all bought their weapons after all.




Not samehada tho, Kisame has that one, so the one that wields samehada doesn’t have his sword, so half the power. Kisame is still running around with it as per your own scan. 



Mad Scientist said:


> Who are these high kage of yours?



Raikage A, SM Jman, PA SM Naruto, Healthy Orochimaru, WA gases, Ohnoki etc....




Mad Scientist said:


> They are the SSM and are only allowed to have 7 members, meaning they're a tight-knit group. The fact they're doing so well against Kakashi's squad, someone who was praised for his leadership by a God of Shinobi, is evidence enough of their power.




As you yourself said there have been different generations. Half of the members could have been from the first gen and the other from the second or third gen, we literally don’t know. 





Mad Scientist said:


> No because he needed to maintain his stamina



Which was stupid, because the alternative which he chose to do was fight for over 13 hours and wear himself down anyways. He could have whipped the floor with them easily, then rested for like two hours and then went on and would have saved hours of his time as opposed to staying in base and fighting for 12 hours.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Not samehada tho, Kisame has that one, so the one that wields samehada doesn’t have his sword, so half the power. Kisame is still running around with it as per your own scan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I disagree strongly, but I'll leave it at that. I'm done here.

Edo Seven Swordsmen of the Mist severe downplay and lack of understanding of war has been revealed in this thread though.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

@Mad Scientist 

Before I break down how wrong you are about the other points; you need to understand that Naruto was exhausted before he got Chakra from Kurama for BM. So no the chakra he had left was after BM must have been left over from what Kurama gave him; not what he had before:

If you can’t accept that reality; then I’m not going to even bother. It also seems like you arguing 3T Kakashi would do better then a fresh KCM Naruto against Jinchuuriki. If that’s the case I’m not going continue this conversation any further ether


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Edo Seven Swordsmen of the Mist severe downplay



Is it downplay though to scale the seven ninja swordsmen to an actual member we know the power of? Then add the Edo tensei buffs and we get a rough idea of their power.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> As Suigetsu can explain to you, "there have been other masters aside from just Kisame and Zabuza." Suigetsu goes on to explain _every blade_ they have, and he starts with the lightning edge blade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol that shit with the White zetsu doesn’t happen until after Kakashi beat Fuguki.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 26, 2019)

@Orochimaru op
Almost everyone in the war was fighting conservatively, what's hard to understand about this?

If you know that you gonna be fighting an extended battle/war, then conserving stamina and chakra is priority instead of spamming your most powerful jutsu and running out of steam in a couple of hours.

If Gai and Kakashi hadn't aided Naruto because of running out of steam so soon then the War would have been lost.

Furthermore, the Zetsus were also able to copy the Ninjas they came into contact further complicating things.

Please stop using @Turrin's terribly flawed logic of making assumptions about an off panel battle and dismissing feats when convenient, instead use on panel feats/battles.


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> @Turrin, I can accept that he may have been low on chakra, but not exhausted. He didn't appear to be exhausted



Also even if he is just low on chakra that would still dull his senses 

*Link Removed*


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> If you know that you gonna be fighting an extended battle/war, then conserving stamina and chakra is priority instead of spamming your most powerful jutsu and running out of steam in a couple of hours.
> 
> If Gai and Kakashi hadn't aided Naruto because of running out of steam so soon then the War would have been lost.



Gai and kakashi saved naruto in like the nick of time, because they spent 12 hours fighting the seven swordsmen when Gai could have whipped them clean off the face of the earth low diff. He could whipe them clean in 5 seconds, spend an hour resting, and rendezvous with Naruto and be like 10 hours ahead of what they did in the manga. Gai was jobbing hard here.


Gai could easily destroy the seven ninja swordsmen.


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## hbcaptain (Aug 26, 2019)

Borderline mid Kage, Kamui is pretty OP but it has its own flaws and Kakashi is lacking defensively.


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Please stop using @Turrin's terribly flawed logic of making assumptions about an off panel battle and dismissing feats when convenient, instead use on panel feats/battles.



Don’t worry, I’m not about to claim Kakashi is jounin level, shoot me if I ever actually do so.


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Borderline mid Kage, Kamui is pretty OP but it has its own flaws and Kakashi is lacking defensively.




I think he’s more then just borderline midkage. The only reason kakashi couldn’t beat Kakazu in the Immortal arc was because he was running out of gas, but he has god tier stamina in the war, so he’s at least slightly above Kakazu


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Is it downplay though it’s cake the seven ninja swordsmen to an actual member we know the power of? Then add the Edo tensei buffs and we get a rough idea of their power.


It’s up play considering it’s doubtful that all of those swordsman are equal to Zabuza who held the title of the demon. The only ones that could be stronger are Fuguki and Mangetsu; both of which were handicapped by not having their sword tho. 
He’s just being ridiculous


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Don’t worry, I’m not about to claim Kakashi is jounin level, shoot me if I ever actually do so.


You place him around the same characters as me tho...


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Lol that shit with the White zetsu doesn’t happen until after Kakashi beat Fuguki.




Wait so the white zetsu appears after the 12 hour battle with the three swordsmen?


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You place him around the same characters as me tho...




I place Kakashi above Kakazu, who’s a mid kage


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> @Orochimaru op
> Almost everyone in the war was fighting conservatively, what's hard to understand about this?
> 
> If you know that you gonna be fighting an extended battle/war, then conserving stamina and chakra is priority instead of spamming your most powerful jutsu and running out of steam in a couple of hours.
> ...


Yes Kakashi was surely fighting conservatively lol


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Gai and kakashi saved naruto in like the nick of time, because they spent 12 hours fighting the seven swordsmen when Gai could have whipped them clean off the face of the earth low diff. He could whipe them clean in 5 seconds, spend an hour resting, and rendezvous with Naruto and be like 10 hours ahead of what they did in the manga. Gai was jobbing hard here.
> 
> 
> Gai could easily destroy the seven ninja swordsmen.



I agree however they were edo and thus could regenerate from any damage Gai does. 

Can't look for the panel but the 7 swordsman actually got defeated before the battle even began.

Kakashi ordered the division to rain hell on them to "buy time" and you do see most of them regenerating afterwards from the attack.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Wait so the white zetsu appears after the 12 hour battle with the three swordsmen?


Yes lol


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes Kakashi was surely fighting conservatively lol



Why don't you show me some of the jutsus he used during his Rampage?

Show me how everything transpired actually.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I place Kakashi above Kakazu, who’s a mid kage


That’s all we disagree on; I don’t place Kakashi above Kakuzu


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## hbcaptain (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> but he has god tier stamina in the war


What ?


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I agree however they were edo and thus could regenerate from any damage Gai does.
> 
> Can't look for the panel but the 7 swordsman actually got defeated before the battle even began.
> 
> Kakashi ordered the division to rain hell on them to "buy time" and you do see most of them regenerating afterwards from the attack.




Could Gai whipe them with his ass and then they seal, hell I know kakashi doesn’t have on screen sealing feats but he has 1000 jutsu I’m sure he could seal them himself after Gai rapes.


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## Symmetry (Aug 26, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> What ?




Okay not actual god tier but he fought for over 12 hours then hightailed it to naruto, did all the shit with Tobi where he spans kamui, and he stalled the V2 Jin’s with Gai. Mans got chakra for days


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## hbcaptain (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Okay not actual god tier but he fought for over 12 hours then hightailed it to naruto, did all the shit with Tobi where he spans kamui, and he stalled the V2 Jin’s with Gai. Mans got chakra for days


Stamina was ignore during the war arc because of plot, everone and their mothers fought for 3 days and 3 nights without stopping, so fighting a long time within "the war arc" doesn't meany anything. Not to mention that unlike the fodders, Kakashi was amped many times by Kurama's chakra.


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Okay not actual god tier but he fought for over 12 hours then hightailed it to naruto, did all the shit with Tobi where he spans kamui, and he stalled the V2 Jin’s with Gai. Mans got chakra for days


He’s was being healed by medics most likely


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Why don't you show me some of the jutsus he used during his Rampage?
> 
> Show me how everything transpired actually.


I don’t need to, we have Kakashi stating he’s going to rampage that definitely doesn’t align with the idea that he was going to fight super conservatively


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I don’t need to, we have Kakashi stating he’s going to rampage that definitely doesn’t align with the idea that he was going to fight super conservatively



It's a....conservative rampage..??


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> *I don’t need to*, we have Kakashi stating he’s going to rampage that definitely doesn’t align with the idea that he was going to fight super conservatively



So you have nothing as I suspected.

Why are you so strongly fixated on the battle against the 7 Swordsman and Co while ignoring the battle against the Jinchuriki where Kakashi and Gai alone practically forced Obito to force his Sharingan/Rinnegan enhanced V2 Jins to decisively gain an upperhand?

Do you consider 3 swordsman >>> Multiple v2 Sharingan/Rinnegan enhanced Jin?


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> So you have nothing as I suspected.
> 
> Why are you so strongly fixated on the battle against the 7 Swordsman and Co while ignoring the battle against the Jinchuriki where Kakashi and Gai alone practically forced Obito to force his Sharingan/Rinnegan enhanced V2 Jins to decisively gain an upperhand?
> 
> Do you consider 3 swordsman >>> Multiple v2 Sharingan/Rinnegan enhanced Jin?


We have Kakashi saying he’s going to rampage and your interpreting this as Kakashi then proceeded to fight ultra conservatively. Your being dishonest and you know it. Just stop.

—-

To answer your other question. I put more value on the fight against the swordsman because it was a much longer fight with an actual conclusion. Rather then against the Jinchuuriki where they only clashed briefly. 

I also don’t find anything they accomplished in that fight impressive in the slightest. All I saw was then failing to do any significant damage to the Jin; and push one of them back a bit; I saw Jonin Chouza and Chouji do that against GM; I saw Kitsuchi do it against V2 Kinkaku. So wow they survive...not impressed


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> We have Kakashi saying he’s going to rampage and your interpreting this as Kakashi then proceeded to fight ultra conservatively. Your being dishonest and you know it. Just stop.
> —-


Do you are arguing that a it takes a whole division, including Gai, Sakura, Lee, Sai, and Kakashi to name a few + thousands of fodder to defeat 3 swordsman. 

You are also arguing that Kakashi's WA stamina is so great that he can rampage for countless hours, barely defeat the swordsman and still have fuel to have an extended battle vs the Jins. 

Wow the swordsman must all be High Kage level then and you hold Kakashi in higher regards even then myself. 



> To answer your other question. I put more value on the fight against the swordsman because it was a much longer fight with an actual conclusion. Rather then against the Jinchuuriki where they only clashed briefly.
> 
> I also don’t find anything they accomplished in that fight impressive in the slightest. All I saw was then failing to do any significant damage to the Jin; and push one of them back a bit; I saw Jonin Chouza and Chouji do that against GM; I saw Kitsuchi do it against V2 Kinkaku. So wow they survive...not impressed



What I saw was 5 V2 Jins failing to do anything to Gai or Kakashi when lesser versions of themselves were pushing Bee's and Naruto's shit in, and Tobi requiring full Bijuu mode and TSB's to overwhelm them.

Funny how that works. 

Think Asuma and Kurenai could do the same since they are Jonins as well?

Or do you consider them Chunin?


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 26, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Think Asuma and Kurenai could do the same since they are Jonins as well?
> 
> Or do you consider them *Chunin?*



I do.

ck


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## Kisame (Aug 26, 2019)

He's Low-Kage, like Kisame, Deidara, Kakuzu, Mei.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 26, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I do.
> 
> ck


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## Turrin (Aug 26, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Do you are arguing that a it takes a whole division, including Gai, Sakura, Lee, Sai, and Kakashi to name a few + thousands of fodder to defeat 3 swordsman.
> 
> You are also arguing that Kakashi's WA stamina is so great that he can rampage for countless hours, barely defeat the swordsman and still have fuel to have an extended battle vs the Jins.
> 
> ...


First off stop with your made up BS straw man. I didn’t ever say how I thought the fight with the swordsman went in this thread or any other. I said you idea that Kakashi fought ultra conservatively the entire time is highly dishoenst interpretation of events when he talks about going on rampage right before the fight. And you dam well know it is.

Now the reason why I don’t think it’s necessary to go into events is because any Mid/High Kage we’ve seen in the manga going on a rampage would rape the Swordsman, so there’s no need to even get into if Kakashi took a break during his rampage or what; the swordsmen would get raped no struggle whatsoever. So all that shit is irrelevant. What we know is that Kakashi performed far worse then any Mid/High Kage would against the swordsman. You know this is true and are dishonestly trying to argue anything you can to ignore the fight.

—-

So are you saying that KCM Naruto and BM B are weaker then the masters, because they “did worse against the Jin” is that your premise? I just want to be clear before I straw man you like you have been doing to me.

And I could careless what you biasly think you saw the reality is the masters held off the Jin briefly which isn’t impressive as even Mei, one of the weakest Kage held off 5 Susanoo Madara clones for longer then that, 1v5, rather then 6v2.

—-

Asuma and Kurunai are Jonin, but not Top Jonin.

Some how your able to grasp the concept of there being different level among Kages, but can’t fathom the same applies to Jonin, genius...

So not those 2 but other Jonin sure; like for example Fuguki or Mangertsu with Samehada would have done better against those Jin then Gai and Kakashi; you know those swordsman that Gai and Kakashi took 12 hours plus to beat.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> First off stop with your made up BS straw man. I didn’t ever say how I thought the fight with the swordsman went in this thread or any other. I said you idea that Kakashi fought ultra conservatively the entire time is highly dishoenst interpretation of events when he talks about going on rampage right before the fight. And you dam well know it is.
> 
> Now the reason why I don’t think it’s necessary to go into events is because any Mid/High Kage we’ve seen in the manga going on a rampage would rape the Swordsman, so there’s no need to even get into if Kakashi took a break during his rampage or what; t*he swordsmen would get raped no struggle whatsoever*. So all that shit is irrelevant. What we know is that Kakashi performed far worse then any Mid/High Kage would against the swordsman. You know this is true and are dishonestly trying to argue anything you can to ignore the fight.



Once again, the fanfic scenario that's in your head doesn't really play out like that no matter what mid Kage you put it.

You are saying a 3 Jonin are enough to give mid/high difficulty to a whole division with some of Konoha's best, yet we don't know how anything went down, except we see Kakashi leading the sealing of these one after the other.

Even his rampage is nothing more than a miss translation.


Any conclusion you draw from it, is indeed baseless without knowing exactly what transpired and led to the sealing to take so long.

So again if you think 3 Swordsman are => than a whole division, more power to you.
[/QUOTE]



> So are you saying that KCM Naruto and BM B are weaker then the masters, because they “did worse against the Jin” is that your premise? I just want to be clear before I straw man you like you have been doing to me.
> 
> And I could careless what you biasly think you saw the reality is the masters held off the Jin briefly which isn’t impressive as even Mei, one of the weakest Kage held off 5 Susanoo Madara clones for longer then that, 1v5, rather then 6v2.


I said they did worst, which they did, or am I mistaken? It simply means the Masters had a better set of abilities to counter them, than novice KCM Naruto and Bee did. If you think that makes them stronger, then more power to you but A>B>C logic rarely works in this manga.

You mean the Susanoo clones that were toying around? Impressive indeed. What attacks from them do we see her countering?



> Asuma and Kurunai are Jonin, but not Top Jonin.
> 
> Some how your able to grasp the concept of there being different level among Kages, but can’t fathom the same applies to Jonin, genius...
> 
> *So not those 2 but other Jonin sure; like for example Fuguki or Mangertsu with Samehada would have done better against those Jin then Gai and Kakashi; you know those swordsman that Gai and Kakashi took 12 hours plus to beat.*



How are they gonna do that? Start by coming up with counters to everything they showed vs the Masters.


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## Charmed (Aug 27, 2019)

Well.. just Kakashi with 1 MS?
he's prolly just a little stronger than when he fought against the  Zombie Duo.

Fighting against the 7SoTM  took him and his allies a lot of time, prolly an entire day, IIRC.
He's still below most Kages, if not all of em.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kurak (Aug 27, 2019)

Low kage at best.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Aug 27, 2019)

@Turrin


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## Turrin (Aug 27, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Once again, the fanfic scenario that's in your head doesn't really play out like that no matter what mid Kage you put it.
> 
> You are saying a 3 Jonin are enough to give mid/high difficulty to a whole division with some of Konoha's best, yet we don't know how anything went down, except we see Kakashi leading the sealing of these one after the other.
> 
> ...


So again your going to start attacking your own bullshit straw man

There was 8 Mid/High Jonin, so likely Kakashi, Ga, Lee, and Sai focused on certain individual swordsman as we saw with Zabuza and at the end of the Fuguki fight, while the division held off the other swordsman, pakura, and gari.

But again the issue is that any Mid/High Kage in Kakashi place would slap the Swordsman so quickly that the fight would never get extended out hours on end. And no matter the translation the context of the txt remains the same Kakashi was really pissed off and was going to go all out on the swordsman at the start of that fight. Even still he had a much tougher time with swordsman then any Kage would.

—-

Again what makes you believe Kakashi and Gai did better against the V2 Jin. On panel all they did was defend one of their attacks and then the rest was a brief off panel interaction we didn’t see.

—-

What Jutsu did the Jin use against Kakashi and Gai off panel. You can’t  answer that question ether, so it’s disingenuous to ask me what techniques Mei countered. All we know is that Mei, who I would consider Low Kage, held off by herself a a superior force for a longer period of time, so if a Low-Kage has a similar performance to Kakashi/Gai why should Kakashi fight with the Jin be evidence for them being above Low-Kage, or even at that level lol.

I actually find Kakashi fight against Kakuzu and Deva Path more impressive then that.


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