# Naruto or Goku -- who's the better main character?



## azngamer87 (Jan 2, 2008)

Who is the better main character.


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## Fang (Jan 2, 2008)

Son Goku. And this should really be in the Library Section.


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

Goku in a stomp.


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## Dark Evangel (Jan 2, 2008)

Goku, I don't know why Naruto is so popular he is not even special.


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## Fang (Jan 2, 2008)

This is a babyshake.


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## azngamer87 (Jan 2, 2008)

Leafy said:


> Goku, I don't know why Naruto is so popular he is not even special.



What do you mean he is not special. He has the Kyubi in him.


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## Dark Evangel (Jan 2, 2008)

azngamer87 said:


> What do you mean he is not special. He has the Kyubi in him.


I mean as a character. He is just like any other fail characters. His never giving up bullshit and becoming Hokage sickens me.


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## azngamer87 (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh, I see.


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## Graham Aker (Jan 2, 2008)

Goku
Naruto is fail. His dream of becoming Hokage is stupid. All he sees is the glory not the work, stupid little bitch.


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## atom (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto: I WANNA BE HOKAGE!!!
Goku: *slaps Naruto* Shutup boy! Bring me my cookies!
Naruto:  Yes Master.


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## Slips (Jan 2, 2008)

I cant stand either of them but Goku is still leagues above Naruto as far as a character is concerned


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## Fang (Jan 2, 2008)

That's just because you hate Dragonball for no reason.


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## Morpheus (Jan 2, 2008)

Goku in a stomp, Naruto is simply done wrong.
He didn't even have a single badass scene so far.


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## Slips (Jan 2, 2008)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> That's just because you hate Dragonball for no reason.



Na I dont mind dragonball it had a bit of humour. 

DBZ was a waste of time though it just repeats arcs too much. I cant stand half the cast and too much filler nonsense


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## Fang (Jan 2, 2008)

There is no such thing as Dragonball Z. That's just anime filler. Just like there is no such thing as Naruto Shippuden in the manga, just Part I and II.

Dragonball after the 23rd Budokai and the fight between Ma Junior and Son Goku becomes Part II with the five year timeskip to Raditz coming to the Earth.


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

Sieglein said:


> Goku in a stomp, Naruto is simply done wrong.
> He didn't even have a single badass scene so far.




*Spoiler*: __ 









EDIT: Slips, just say the later Dragonball.


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## Slips (Jan 2, 2008)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> There is no such thing as Dragonball Z. That's just anime filler. Just like there is no such thing as Naruto Shippuden in the manga, just Part I and II.
> 
> Dragonball after the 23rd Budokai and the fight between Ma Junior and Son Goku becomes Part II with the five year timeskip to Raditz coming to the Earth.



Seems a pointless post when you knew what I was talking about 

-------------------

I'd also agree with the above part 1 Naruto had plenty of decent moments

Outwitting Zabuza
Owning Haku
Fight with Neji
Stopping the snake


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## Morpheus (Jan 2, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Forgot about the first one, but the latter one is not really something special.
And even the first one is not that badass compared to other truly badass scenes.


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

It looked awesome in the anime and maybe his best pwnage moment in the entire story. Bashing the skulls of three people with a single kick, while they where busy crapping their pants because of Kabuto, after having used a shitload of chakra for a smart plan, he thought of alone. It was the icing on the cake.


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## Morpheus (Jan 2, 2008)

Ah, can't really remember much of Naruto Part 1, it's been a while since i've read the manga.

Goku is still much better though


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## mystictrunks (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto vs Neji was pretty good.

THe rasengan being used was pretty good too. if only Kabuto stayed dead . . .


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> Naruto vs Neji was pretty good.
> 
> THe rasengan being used was pretty good too. if only Kabuto stayed dead . . .



To be honest, it was rather hard to believe, that Kabuto didn't do anything, while Naruto made his rasengan. And Naruto vs Neji, he got smacked around the entire fight till he used Kyuubi.


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## blaster (Jan 2, 2008)

azngamer87 said:


> What do you mean he is not special. He has the Kyubi in him.



yeh, naruto got kyuubi while goku got oozaru.




> Naruto: I WANNA BE HOKAGE!!!
> Goku: *slaps Naruto* Shutup boy! Bring me my cookies!
> Naruto: Yes Master.



i've never seen goku dream as high as vegeta or naruto often do....


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

blaster said:


> yeh, naruto got kyuubi while *goku got oozaru.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So does every other saiyajin.


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## Shurix (Jan 2, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> So does every other saiyajin.



I don't think its because they dream, but rather they search for more power as a goal, like what Sasuke does.


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## Rokudaime (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto Part 1 was badass while Part 2 Naruto is...

Naruto Part 2 : SASUKE-SAMA!!! I want to lick you! SASUKE-SAMA ! ALL HAIL TO UCHIHA !!! Yummy..It is so delicious..SASUKE-SAMA!!!!


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd like to say goku but naruto takes it for me. I've liked naruto's character development up till now, and although goku was my hero back in the day he didn't really go anywhere with character development besides getting stronger..he was still the same dumb as a rock happy go lucky kid who didn't care about his family enough to stay with them over training in some remote place and that pissed me off.


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

Shurix said:


> I don't think its because they dream, but rather they search for more power as a goal, like what Sasuke does.



First of all, do you know why people bold parts?

And never compare a Dragonball character, much less Vegeta to Sasuke. 



Inuhanyou said:


> I'd like to say goku but naruto takes it for me. I've liked naruto's character development up till now, and although goku was my hero back in the day he didn't really go anywhere with character development besides getting stronger..he was still the same dumb as a rock happy go lucky kid who didn't care about his family enough to stay with them over training in some remote place and that pissed me off.



Goku wasn't dumb in the later parts. And he did have some character development, he chose to step back and let the kids do it for example. Naruto in comparison fails too hard.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> Goku wasn't dumb in the later parts. And he did have some character development, he chose to step back and let the kids do it for example. Naruto in comparison fails too hard.



It was my opinion, don't bring your BS "omgphail" BS on it.

Besides, goku choose to go "let the kids do it" over the fact that he would have destroyed the earth if they couldent, much less he didnt seem that sad over the fact that he just killed his children and piccolo in the buu saga over some useless posturing idiot seeing as how he was back to smiles like 5 minutes later. I'd say vegeta was much better then goku in the character development side of things.

Besides goku going "5+5 equals uhhh.." is pretty stupid in my opinion.


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> It was my opinion, don't bring your BS "omgphail" BS on it.
> 
> Besides, goku choose to go "let the kids do it" over the fact that he would have destroyed the earth if they couldent, much less he didnt seem that sad over the fact that he just killed his children and piccolo in the buu saga over some useless posturing idiot seeing as how he was back to smiles like 5 minutes later. I'd say vegeta was much better then goku in the character development side of things.
> 
> Besides goku going "5+5 equals uhhh.." is pretty stupid in my opinion.




Just because it's your opinion, I can't comment or oppose it? I swear the next one that uses "OMG, it's my opinion" gets a neg.

He has faith in the youth, which is inspirational. How could you think of that as negative. It's so much better than people who want to be the center of attention and the hero. And he didn't kill anyone. Buu did. And him rescuing Satan + Dende (isn't Dende one of his friends ) was a reflex. He just couldn't leave them there. Also, the way you describe it, it sounds like he willingly let them die, truth is, he couldn't make it in time. 

Also, who the fuck are you to decides who deserves to live and who doesn't? Just because Satan is an idiot, he doesn't deserve to live. right.  It is so much more noble to save people regardless of who it is. 

And people in DB can be revived.  You may be right about Vegeta.

And not knowing 5 +5 is a result of his lacking education, he was a hermit living outside of civilization.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto is a failure. I found Goku far more deserving of the main character status.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

Firstly,Before you go trying to hand my ass to me, you could agree to disagree before 
you try and disprove what i think, cause its not going to mesh with either of us.


And secondly, i'm not saying he should have left hercule to die or even that he could have saved them. What i'm pissed off at was that he didnt show some damn remorse. Just cause of the dragonballs it gives him the right to lose the right of life? Seriously he went crazy when krillin died but he can't go a little emo for his sons? Yea that's pretty great there.

And thirdly goku actually did school work with roshi, living as a hermit is no excuse for "5+5 = uhh.."

Anyway that's all i have to say about that.
I think Naruto is the better main character.


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jan 2, 2008)

i would have said naruto, but in part 2 hes basically sasukes gay lover pining away from afar,

so ill say goku  for at least 20 good reasons.... even though his japanese voice is annoying.


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> Firstly,Before you go trying to hand my ass to me, you could agree to disagree before
> you try and disprove what i think, cause its not going to mesh with either of us.
> 
> 
> ...



I agreed that you were right about Vegeta. 

And it was the heat of battle, they were worried about Buu. Also: 
*Spoiler*: __ 




Lol at stupid translators, Vegeta said, "Trunks and the others"




Goku doesn't look like he doesn't give a shit here.

Are you sure about schoolwork?


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> I agreed that you were right about Vegeta.
> 
> And it was the heat of battle, they were worried about Buu. Also:
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Yes, remember that time muten told them they needed to "train their minds as well as their bodies?" goku was doing an excellent job at work then, don't tell me  he forgot 5+5.


And your scan is for one iitty bitty panel. I personally prefer pages of emotional stuff just to make it a tad more realistic(some would call it "acting like a little bitch")

But that works in naruto, especially since its all about bonds and what not./


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 2, 2008)

> And your scan is for one iitty bitty panel. I personally prefer pages of emotional stuff just to make it a tad more realistic(some would call it "acting like a little bitch")
> 
> But that works in naruto, especially since its all about bonds and what not./



Didn't you see his reaction to Piccolo's near-death and Krillin's murder (both of them)? Or what about Vegeta's death?


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Didn't you see his reaction to Piccolo's near-death and Krillin's murder (both of them)? Or what about Vegeta's death?



Yea those were the days werent they? Before the buu saga and the importance of life was taken away from the series. I happen to like goku only up till the end of the freiza battle, that's when goku shined the very brightest IMO by negating everything frieza said with his words of wisdom to the point he gave frieza a fucking complex.

After that its just "oh don't worry we'll just wish em back with the dragonballs no problem!" and that goes for the human population several times over.

(cell saga was slightly more bearable due to gohan and vegeta's realistic reactions)


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 2, 2008)

> Yea those were the days werent they? Before cell or the buu saga and the importance of life was taken away from the series. I happen to like goku only up till the end of the freiza battle, that's when goku shined the very brighted IMO by negating everything frieza said with his words of wisdom to the point he gave frieza a fucking complex.
> 
> After that its just "oh don't worry we'll just wish em back with the dragonballs no problem!" and that goes for the human population several times over.



What? He was at his worst in the Cell Saga, mainly for getting Gohan to fight Cell. Other than that though, he always showed a reaction to death. When Majin Vegeta killed the spectators, he got pissed off, when the scan Aokiji showed has Goku feeling remorse over Earth's destruction and the death of his family.


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## Yamato-takeru (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, at least I wouldn't say Naruto is a failure. 

If you reread the manga and take a look at his character every, uh I don't know, ~30 chapters, then you'll notice how he develops from an loud idiot with no skill at all to a more matured ninja, who still shows his childish nature from time to time.

I'm not sure about Goku. I can remember him making interesting decisions here and there but I don't think that he had lots of development. From the beginning to the end he was a brave and happy fighter-type of guy. I mean, compare his development with that of Kurono(Gantz). HE had some serious development. But I admit that Naruto didn't have a great turn-around, either.

But if I had to choose between those two I'd go for Naruto. I like how he has to fight against his 'own' power. But even so, he lacks some scene like:

"Don't tell me what to do, Kakashi-sensei.Where were you when the chunin-exams came up? HUH? All you cared for was that Uchiha genius... You never really cared about me, did you? ...Kakashi-sensei."


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

@seto - yea i edited my post a bit..buu saga was the worst IMO though.

@yamato - that's what im sayin!  It may be just me but naruto works more in a coming of age story then goku did.


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## -Deidara- (Jan 2, 2008)

Goku, Hes Better All Around, And Sets a Better Example.


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## MUSOLINI (Jan 2, 2008)

none of them are even close to vegeta (or itachi), but hoku takes this easily. naruto has to be one of the most stupid and just meaningless main characters ever in a manga. goku on the other hand, is the epitome of awesomeness. and vegeta basically shits on both of them, along with picollo.


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## Shikashi (Jan 2, 2008)

Obviously Son Goku, Naruto is just a filler character for Sasugay, and I hate Sasugay.


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## bluewolf (Jan 2, 2008)

sorry didnt read it all because the personal argument going on bored me. 

I think naruto is a better story than dragonball Z... especialy the first half of naruto which i personaly think was better than dragonball. 

however Goku is a much better character than Naturo. naruto just seems like a plot device rather than a good main character and in almost every situation naruto causes as much trouble as he fixes. Naruto is simply annoying to me I am loving the sasuke parts not because i like sasuke but because naruto is not in them charging in like a dumb ass and geting every one else in danger.


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## Freija (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto sucks, but goku sucks way more


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## Shikashi (Jan 2, 2008)

Freija the villain said:


> Naruto sucks, but goku sucks way more



No, you suck. Goku is made of 80's and win, Naruto is made of Masashi poo.


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## Yamato-takeru (Jan 2, 2008)

Freija the villain said:


> Naruto sucks, but goku sucks way more



Lol, curb-stomping the opinions, huh?


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## Supa Swag (Jan 2, 2008)

It might actually be close if we're only counting Pt.1 Naruto...but we're not.

So Goku by fucking far.


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## Kenny Florian (Jan 2, 2008)

Goku by far. 


Never understood what was so great about Vegeta. I liked him when he was a villain but after that he was basically just someone who complained and failed alot.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 2, 2008)

All this hate for Naruto is kind of sad . Anyway, I guess I'm one of the few people who like Naruto more than Goku. Neither are bad, but I think Naruto is a bit better developed character than Goku. At least, part I Naruto was. Part II Naruto has been taking a back seat to Sasuke because of Kishi wangsting. >.<


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## Ennoea (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto hasn't ended yet so not fair.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

Exactly finnaly some people are having some sense to actually realize the manga isnt even done to make BS judgements


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## natwel (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto is wwwwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy better than Goku, that's why this isn't a DBZ forum.


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## Fang (Jan 2, 2008)

natwel said:


> Naruto is wwwwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy better than Goku, that's why this isn't a DBZ forum.



First off, that is a lame way to justifiy your reasoning. Secondly, the manga was always known as Dragonball, there is no such thing as Naruto Shippuden in the manga now is there?

Also, good character development and character designs are a commodity that Kishimoto expired at the end of Part I, and completely retarded the personality and development of Naruto in a two dimensional, crying fanboy of Sasuke. He literally turned the main character into a fanboy of his former friend.

Naruto is crap.

Goku stomps this.


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

Can't add to perfection.


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## Kyou (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto; he has both development for strength,power etc and like character/morals growth.

Goku was pretty perfect, just needed to get stronger.

Naruto has more growth opportunities and therefore he wins.


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## Fang (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto's growth is terribly stunted. Can you show me this amazing development anywhere after the Rescue Sasori Arc and not counting his training in the Immortal's Arc?


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## Ironhide (Jan 2, 2008)

Goku 

hes just an all around badass


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## Caitlyn Jenner (Jan 2, 2008)

Goku.

Because he the manga-ka went into deep detail about Goku's past life (DB) and such.Naruto would be my pick if he becomes a dad like Goku.


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## Lilykt7 (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto, Goku just doesn't seem to have any depth. Yeah he's funny and strong but as a character I think you could find it easier to relate to Naruto. 

Goku might have some depth but I don't remember considering I watched the show when I was like 8


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## mystictrunks (Jan 2, 2008)

Chibi_Reno said:


> Naruto; he has both development for strength,power etc and like character/morals growth.
> 
> Goku was pretty perfect, just needed to get stronger.
> 
> Naruto has more growth opportunities and therefore he wins.



So Goku didn't step up his people skills?

He didn't deal with death?

He never had chances to lose integrity?


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## kakoishii (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd have to go with Naruto. Not that I don't like Goku, but I started to really dislike his character once it became apparent than he was the only character that mattered and every other fighter in the series just existed to make him look better. I like that fact that Naruto's character is fallible and doesn't have a childlike innocence, it makes his character more realistic and relatable and gives him plenty of room to develope unlike Goku who seemed too perfect and was a complete powerhouse  with godly strength that just kept getting stronger.


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

kakoishii said:


> I'd have to go with Naruto. Not that I don't like Goku, but I started to really dislike his character once it became apparent than he was the only character that mattered and every other fighter in the series just existed to make him look better. I like that fact that Naruto's character is fallible and doesn't have a childlike innocence, it makes his character more realistic and relatable and gives him plenty of room to develope unlike Goku who seemed too perfect and was a complete powerhouse  with godly strength that just kept getting stronger.



You seem not to have watched DBZ to the end. Goku was only a match for the weakest versions of Buu, others were much stronger.

And didn't Goku get smarter during the series.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

I pretty much agree with all antigoku sentiments in this thread, not to say i dont like goku cause i do, but he seemed abit more like superman then i liked, while kishi put all his effort into making naruto struggle from the ground up, just for people saying naruto is shit in this thread is evidence he did a good job with it


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 2, 2008)

Goku fit the definition of a hard worker surpassing the elite better than Naruto ever has.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

heh really? cause as far as i could tell, goku just got that hax saiyan bloodline trait that made him get a random power up every time he got owned...that and saiyans are all fighting geniuses, naruto has also had to work for his power, and there were a hell of a lot of things that he helped accomplish, i agree that goku trained hard, but don't make naruto's struggles seem like nothing when they were something


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 2, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> heh really? cause as far as i could tell, goku just got that saiyan bloodline that made him get a random power up every time he got owned...



Much like Naruto has Kyubi? Yet somehow still fails?

Goku was a low-class soldier with a power level of 1 when he was born. Yet look how far he got.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

and naruto was a hated loser who had not an ounce of nin training and everybody hated, now he's a quite powerfull nin who's more then capable of handling himself in a fight and he has the respect of quite a few people on his side.

They're both good characters, i'm not denying that make no mistake, but...i guess what i'm really trying to say is don't blow naruto off just yet when the manga isnt even finished.


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

Naruto disgraces himself for a guy who doesn't give two shits about him and told him so verbally and physically. Can it get much worse?


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 2, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> and naruto was a hated loser who had not an ounce of nin training and everybody hated, now he's a quite powerfull nin who's more then capable of handling himself in a fight and he has the respect of quite a few people on his side.
> 
> They're both good characters, i'm not denying that make no mistake, but...i guess what i'm really trying to say is don't count naruto out just yet when the manga isnt even finished.



I already know that Naruto will somehow be the strongest. It's about the journey, not the destination; and Naruto's journey in Pt.II at least has been very disappointing.


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## mystictrunks (Jan 2, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> I pretty much agree with all antigoku sentiments in this thread, not to say i dont like goku cause i do, but he seemed abit more like *superman* then i liked, while kishi put all his effort into making naruto struggle from the ground up, just for people saying naruto is shit in this thread is evidence he did a good job with it



But Superman does struggle and has problems . . .


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

Lololol Superman is the strongest character in fiction, except there are dozens of characters that could stomp him.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 2, 2008)

aokiji - its about bonds, you know that. That's just naruto's personality...why didnt he haul off and attack sakura for acting like a bitch all the time? He'd forgive any of his friends for anything they did to him...but does that make him a bad character or a forgiving one?  Its debatable really, in that respect naruto is much like allen walker, and its a big reason why i respect each character because of that so called "jesus complex" that they have, another reason i liked goku as well


@mystictrunks - superman is omnipotent, makes battles really boring


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## Aokiji (Jan 2, 2008)

It's not. He talks about "saving" Sasuke, although he acts on his free will. And yes I'd lmao if he pimpslapped that bitch for not knowing her limits.


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## Fang (Jan 2, 2008)

Lilykt7 said:


> Naruto, Goku just doesn't seem to have any depth. Yeah he's funny and strong but as a character I think you could find it easier to relate to Naruto.
> 
> Goku might have some depth but I don't remember considering I watched the show when I was like 8



Are you serious?


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## mystictrunks (Jan 2, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> @mystictrunks - superman is omnipotent, makes battles really boring



Not when there's 1000000000000000000's of other character like him.

There's also the psychological elements to him.


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## blueava21 (Jan 2, 2008)

Well, both are really good main characters, but I love Naruto more.


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## Perfect Moron (Jan 2, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> @mystictrunks - superman is omnipotent, makes battles really boring


People who complain about that (usually, after realizing that Superman beats Goku), don't get that the character is not about the fights.


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## Fang (Jan 2, 2008)

Goku was a pretty happy guy even after having his arms and legs broken.


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## AbnormallyNormal (Jan 3, 2008)

naruto is more realistic and multi layered


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## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

How is Naruto more realistic or "multi-layered"? Reasons?


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## AbnormallyNormal (Jan 3, 2008)

well pretty much goku is presented as almost a superman type character: always does good, always has good heart, always has right motives, is almost omnipotent as series progresses, always wins his fights, fights the biggest bad guys every arc, etc etc etc. he's just completely straight-forward and incredibly extroverted. while naruto fails a lot, has issues, cares about his companions, has feelings of isolation and alienation to overcome, has an uneven power growth, relies on a very dangerous power source to begin with....


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## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

Goku is happy go lucky kind of guy. And he has his moments of sadness and hate when given the proper catylsts. Where is Naruto's personality in Part II exactly?


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## AbnormallyNormal (Jan 3, 2008)

naruto's personality in part ii is basically shown whenever sasuke comes up. also his evolving romance with sakura. and his gradual realization that he has to be the child of destiny (he doesnt officially know this but he's acting more like it lately) plus the fact that his most powerful form, kn4, was extreemly damaging to him psychologically and physically. and even FRS damages him! compare that to all of goku's power ups... they're just striaghtforward bonuses without any drawbacks at all. its not as if goku's mind regresses to an animal when he goes SSJ3 or something.


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## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

What romance with Sakura? What personality? He has none in Part II, he is nothing compared to his former. Part I Naruto was cocky, self-confidant and aggressive while having his moments of comedy and seriousness, Part II Naruto since the Save Gaara Arc is generally depressive and thats really about all that is other then being a fanboy of Sasuke.


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## ExiledDragon (Jan 3, 2008)

Later DragonBall goku is possibly the stupidest character i've ever seen.
Golden boy who can do no wrong?  Who needs one.  Anyone who says goku is a great character really has issues.  Goku has no badass scenes either.  He's a fail of a character.

While naruto isn't the best character, he'll take goku's two dimensional ass back to game and watch.  And by 2d, i mean fight and stupid.


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## Masaki (Jan 3, 2008)

Goku wins in a massive curbstomp.

A. He can actuallly win his fights, therefore justifying hype from other characters.
B. He actually is funny, and doesn't need to resort to farts for comedy/winning fights
C. Chances are, anyone who voted Naruto here would think more of Goku had the US started with DB, not DBZ.  Imagine if America started with Shippuuden, it'd be the same deal.


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## hearts (Jan 3, 2008)

Sonic said:


> Naruto: I WANNA BE HOKAGE!!!
> Goku: *slaps Naruto* Shutup boy! Bring me my cookies!
> Naruto:  Yes Master.



 im in the middle of  reading  watching dbz so i dont know yet
but goku seems way too powerfull for his own good
but dbz is done right? like ended
naruto still has much potential to grow as a character (not according to kishi's latest interview but who cares) so i'll let you know what i think when im done.
(yeah ive never watched/read dbz.big deal  it was my generation i just wasn't interested...)


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## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

Good job, Masaki.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jan 3, 2008)

AbnormallyNormal said:


> naruto's personality in part ii is basically shown whenever sasuke comes up. also his evolving romance with sakura. and his gradual realization that he has to be the child of destiny (he doesnt officially know this but he's acting more like it lately) plus the fact that his most powerful form, kn4, was extreemly damaging to him psychologically and physically. and even FRS damages him! compare that to all of goku's power ups... they're just striaghtforward bonuses without any drawbacks at all. its not as if goku's mind regresses to an animal when he goes SSJ3 or something.



Excluding Kaioken,SSJ3 and Oozaru of course.


----------



## ExiledDragon (Jan 3, 2008)

i'll give you kaioken, but name one thing SS3 or oozaru has accomplished for goku.  Besides letting him beat Pilaf, which was such a crappy end to what could have been an awesome fight.

SS3 is basically a time staller.  It's drawback is less stamina, but that really can't be a drawback if you consider the fact that someone with a lack of stamina will last longer in a fight than someone with a lack of power.

oozaru helps goku win a battle once during all of DB, and and helps gohan only once during dbz.  

Kaioken was used once and then thrown away for A NEW TRANSFORMATION.  SS used once and then thrown away FOR A NEW TRANSFORMATION.
SS2 was used once and then thrown away FOR A NEW TRANSFORMATION.
SS3 was used once, but then we all realized it was worthless, so it was THROWN AWAY FOR AN ATTACK THAT COULDN'T BEAT FRIEZA.

You gotta ask yourself how legendary SS can be if there was two levels above it, and an attack that was stronger than it.  At least with naruto, they clearly tell you the limit of his kyuubi transformations, and there is a good explanation for the different levels.  Even better is that he doesn't need to learn something new every battle.

And i love DB Part 1 Goku.  He's shallow too, but i hate DB Part 2 Goku, and he's the goku who takes the majority of the show.  Goku as a whole is an awful character.  Naruto is leagues ahead of him in character, plus Goku gets through scrapes on pretty much every fight.  He rarely if ever uses intelligence in a fight, and it has never won him a fight.  Dragon ball part 2 as a whole is very shallow, to the point of being crappy.


----------



## Rivayir (Jan 3, 2008)

Naruto is considered as a main character?


----------



## dreams lie (Jan 3, 2008)

Goku.  I like his name better.


----------



## kakoishii (Jan 3, 2008)

Aokiji said:


> You seem not to have watched DBZ to the end. Goku was only a match for the weakest versions of Buu, others were much stronger.
> 
> And didn't Goku get smarter during the series.



lol, are you kidding? I watched all of DB, Z, and even suffered through all of GT. If memory serves Goku could have killed the first stage of Buu but decided to let the kids do it then buu when he absorbed both his sons and trunks he merged with Vegeta but then dicked around instead of killing him then when the planet was destroyed used a spirit bomb to destroy kid Buu. Thus Goku is a powerhouse that keeps getting stronger and the development of every other character in the series seemed as though it was just there to make Goku look even stronger, come on there was a point where Gohan was stronger but I guess Toriyama chickened out or something and decided he'd rather have his precious main character as the strongest.

Goku getting smarter? No not really, it basically won all his fight by beating the other guy to a pulp using numerous powerups, no offense but it seems as though Goku used a bit more strategy in DB then he did in the latter series. At least Naruto actually surprised on occasions using actual strategy despite the fact he still kind of charges into battle.


----------



## Aokiji (Jan 3, 2008)

AbnormallyNormal said:


> well pretty much goku is presented as almost a superman type character: always does good, always has good heart, always has right motives, is almost omnipotent as series progresses, always wins his fights, fights the biggest bad guys every arc, etc etc etc. he's just completely straight-forward and incredibly extroverted. while naruto fails a lot, has issues, cares about his companions, has feelings of isolation and alienation to overcome, has an uneven power growth, relies on a very dangerous power source to begin with....



Goku doesn't alwys do good, has killed a few people in battle and why does everyone have to be a wannabe antihero like Sasuke, who acts like a dick, just to create the illusion of depth?

Lol, at him being omnipoetent.  If you like fail charachers, that's OK, but I do not.



AbnormallyNormal said:


> naruto's personality in part ii is basically shown whenever *sasuke* comes up. also his evolving romance with sakura. and his gradual realization that he has to be the child of destiny (he doesnt officially know this but he's acting more like it lately) plus the fact that his most powerful form, kn4, was extreemly damaging to him psychologically and physically. and even FRS damages him! compare that to all of goku's power ups... they're just striaghtforward bonuses without any drawbacks at all. its not as if goku's mind regresses to an animal when he goes SSJ3 or something.



That's the problem.....

And why does everyone have to posses a powerup that damages them, it's a cliche done over and over again. And you can't really accuse Goku of cliches, since he created most of them.



ExiledDragon said:


> Later DragonBall goku is possibly the stupidest character i've ever seen.
> Golden boy who can do no wrong?  Who needs one.  Anyone who says goku is a great character really has issues.  *Goku has no badass scenes either.*  He's a fail of a character.
> 
> While naruto isn't the best character, he'll take goku's two dimensional ass back to game and watch.  And by 2d, i mean fight and stupid.



Lol.........

I basically replied to the rest above. Oh and talking about fail is strange if the character you're defending is Naruto.



ExiledDragon said:


> i'll give you kaioken, but name one thing SS3 or oozaru has accomplished for goku.  Besides letting him beat Pilaf, which was such a crappy end to what could have been an awesome fight.
> 
> SS3 is basically a time staller.  It's drawback is less stamina, but that really can't be a drawback if you consider the fact that someone with a lack of stamina will last longer in a fight than someone with a lack of power.
> 
> ...





kakoishii said:


> lol, are you kidding? I watched all of DB, Z, and even suffered through all of GT. If memory serves Goku could have killed the first stage of Buu but decided to let the kids do it then buu when he absorbed both his sons and trunks he merged with Vegeta but then dicked around instead of killing him then when the planet was destroyed used a spirit bomb to destroy kid Buu. Thus Goku is a powerhouse that keeps getting stronger and the development of every other character in the series seemed as though it was just there to make Goku look even stronger, come on there was a point where Gohan was stronger but I guess Toriyama chickened out or something and decided he'd rather have his precious main character as the strongest.
> 
> Goku getting smarter? No not really, it basically won all his fight by beating the other guy to a pulp using numerous powerups, no offense but it seems as though Goku used a bit more strategy in DB then he did in the latter series. At least Naruto actually surprised on occasions using actual strategy despite the fact he still kind of charges into battle.



..................................








You do realize that the Genkidama against Buu was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> against Freeza, right?


----------



## Graham Aker (Jan 3, 2008)

Sonic said:


> Naruto: I WANNA BE HOKAGE!!!
> Goku: *slaps Naruto* Shutup boy! Bring me my cookies!
> Naruto:  Yes Master.


No, no, no, that's Part I pre-Sasuke retrieval arc Naruto.

Sasuke retrieval arc to Part II Naruto has him screaming "SASUKE" sometimes paired with "I want to lick your body!" or "I want to rub my cawk with your cawk!"



> Naruto is considered as a main character?


I lawled.


----------



## bluewolf (Jan 3, 2008)

like i said... Naruto is a better show than the Dragonball and dragonball Z seriies. 

but Goku was a better main character. 

it sucked that none of the other characters in DB or DBZ were ever fully fleshed out except in order to better flesh out goku and the sayian family but the fact remains goku was much more likeable than naruto... 

Look at it this way. supposeing you knew two people in real life no powers, no story line just the person. 

Naruto:
Pro - always willing to fight for friends and defend the underdog, makes friends easily

Con - always going over the top and causing damage or severe annoyance to everything around him
      - putting teamates in danger because he cant follow directions, work as a team member or think about anything but what ever he has personaly prioritized. though this may be an unselfish thing like helping a friend he will happily ignore, destroy or attempt to change all other goals around him in order to satisfy what ever goal he is personaly following. a good thing if his goal is the same as yours. a bad thing if it is different. 
      -  relativly unskilled and unintelligent possesed of sparks of genious but usually those sparks are random luck. 

Goku
Pro - always there to help his friends and fight for the under dog, makes friends easily
     - genuinly outgoing and kind willing to give up the spotlite and work as a team. 

Con - primarily motivated by fun, family and fighting
      - eats WAY too much


I admit my list may be a bit biassed because i honestly dont like the character of Naruto. however, I think the general idea is realistic. I dont know any one who if forced to pick one or the other would pick Naruto as a friend over Goku. Naruto just seems like a "friend" who is more trouble than he is worth.


----------



## Yamato-takeru (Jan 3, 2008)

I see where you're coming from if you say that Naruto has become a Sasukefanboy and I understand why you're saying that he didn't have any personality in Part 2 because of it.

But I say, that's just Naruto.

I'm not saying Goku was shit or anything. Just for this thread I reread a little bit here and there to remember his development and such.
So now I have admit that he was at least an interesting character. He was always funny and fun to watch, you enjoyed it. And that he DID have development. Good development. Especially/mostly in "DB"(23 Budokai). Every time he entered a tournament he matured and showed unexpected decisions. In "DBZ" it became less, but allright. 
_Let's write down, that he had good development, he was interesting and he was a happy, straightforward character._

So what about Naruto? 
In Part 1, he had a lot of development. Here are some examples:

-Introduction: loud, annoying, no skill at all. the typical annoying sunshine-character
-Gaara-showdown: showed his brave, serious side and some ninja skill
-VotE: his backstory(loneliness, friendship etc.), bond with Sasuke
-Pt2, somewhere: 'angsty' kid, worried and failure

To me, Naruto's development is great, too. His behaviour really changes with the time and you understand him. 



> Yeah, but I don't like fail characters



Well, ok. You like characters, who pwn and are badass most of the time. 
But I don't and some other people don't, either. We want to see the hero struggle and overcome a lot of problems without him being able to do so without getting scared/crying etc.


Well, my point is, that both have had character development(and Naruto's isn't even over yet) and this thread is more about opinion because they're both great in their own way and it all comes down to who you like more.


EDIT:



bluewolf said:


> Look at it this way. supposeing you knew two people in real life no powers, no story line just the person.
> 
> Naruto:
> Pro - always willing to fight for friends and defend the underdog, makes friends easily
> ...



I'd say your list IS a bit biased. 

So you choose Goku over Naruto, because he'd be a better friend? Fine.

While I don't know whom I'd choose as a friend, I'd choose Naruto as a main character. I just like his type(the one he developed from late P1 to now) more and... blablabla.

See what I mean? They're both fleshed out enough to imagine them as real people and you chose Goku. I think they both had so much development that you can't compare them anymore this way.


----------



## Perfect Moron (Jan 3, 2008)

kakoishii said:


> come on there was a point where Gohan was stronger but I guess Toriyama chickened out or something and decided he'd rather have his precious main character as the strongest.


What are you talking about? Gohan was stronger than Goku at the end of the series.


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## MdB (Jan 3, 2008)

Naruto lost all of his charms since part 2 started.


----------



## Shikashi (Jan 3, 2008)

AbnormallyNormal said:


> naruto is more realistic and multi layered



There's only one layer to Naruto, it's called Sasuke.

Son Goku is a better character because... well, he is, I guess. He's the guy everyone turned to when they needed help, he's the guy who made Saiya-jins look awesome, he's the guy who, imho, had the single longest and best rivalry in Shounen Manga. He's the guy who was born as a low-class piece of shit and became the greatest Saiya-jin there was, he's also pretty intelligent on the battlefield, not so much on the other aspects of his life, but his logic is pretty perfect when he fights, he constantly comes up with strategies to kick his enemies ass... I can go on and on.

Anyway, Naruto is just... worhtless, ya know? I don't know why Kishimoto dislikes his main character so much, he's constantly making him look bad and doesn't power him up enough, not nearly enough. He does all these things for Sasuke though.


----------



## Yamato-takeru (Jan 3, 2008)

If Naruto looks like shit, doesn't that mean Kishimoto suceeded in making you believe that? Though, he's been hyped a little. Hm...


----------



## Graham Aker (Jan 3, 2008)

Lord Kamina said:


> Naruto lost all of his charms since part 2 started.


He lost his charm when he became a rabid Sasuketard.


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## Perfect Moron (Jan 3, 2008)

Yamato-takeru said:


> If Naruto looks like shit, doesn't that mean Kishimoto suceeded in making you believe that? Though, he's been hyped a little. Hm...



Succeeded a little too well, perhaps. I hate how we are supposed to accept Naruto has surpassed Kakashi, without ever making him look like it.


----------



## Yamato-takeru (Jan 3, 2008)

Perfect Moron said:


> Succeeded a little too well, perhaps. I hate how we supposed to accept Naruto has surpassed Kakashi, without ever making him look like it.



Hm, I'll give you that. Still, putting that aside, I think Naruto's a good character.


----------



## Sawako (Jan 3, 2008)

You can't even compare the two. Goku is so much more awesome than Naruto.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jan 3, 2008)

Goku rapes, considering Naruto's a selfish little turd.


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## Totitos (Jan 3, 2008)

I prefer Goku.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jan 3, 2008)

Seriously, Goku is the essence of good. He lets every one of his enemies live and has tons of mercy. Naruto, on many occasions, just wants to kill his enemies and become Hokage. He's a little selfish turd.


----------



## Kenny Florian (Jan 3, 2008)

Honestly Goku in the manga wasn't that nice. He let Vegeta go because he wanted to beat his ass himself. Through out early DB Goku sort of swayed around with battle lust.


----------



## Muk (Jan 3, 2008)

For a main character Naruto fails to impress me.

The whole "I am the underdog" is a great start, but you can't possibly think it will take you through the whole story ...

I mean he has to grow up sooner or later and until now Naruto didn't grow up one bit. Not in the battle aspect nor in his character.

If Kishimoto just gave Naruto a better battle style or just an inch of battle smarts that lets him look good than Naruto may be little more convincing, but he doesn't.

Goku is on so many layers more interesting even if DB got repetitive, the battles never failed to deliver. Naruto just fails on too many layers even in battle it ain't funny.

Naruto may be a klutz but you can't possibly think to pull a stupid failure right in front of Kakuzu and than be rescued by Yamato and Kakashi.

That just ruins all the credibility. Kishi just doesn't know how to write a main character.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jan 3, 2008)

It feels like, throughout Naruto, he wants you to pity every fucking character. Gaara, Naruto, Sakura, Sasuke, etc...


----------



## Yamato-takeru (Jan 3, 2008)

That's a common thing lately, isn't it?


----------



## Muk (Jan 3, 2008)

its gets old to pity all your characters

and any of the better ones like deidara or hidan & kakuzu just die cause he has to make them villains


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## kakoishii (Jan 3, 2008)

Perfect Moron said:


> What are you talking about? Gohan was stronger than Goku at the end of the series.



you sure? Didn't Gohan stop fighting after Buu was defeated? I'm pretty sure he stopped training after that point and thus became out of shape


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## Shikashi (Jan 3, 2008)

kakoishii said:


> you sure? Didn't Gohan stop fighting after Buu was defeated? I'm pretty sure he stopped training after that point and thus became out of shape



He was supposed to be, but fans kept sending letters to Toriyama begging for more Goku love.


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## mecketh (Jan 3, 2008)

goku:

Naruto is filler in his own manga(the parts whith kabuto and itachi are for what anyway?the bingo book was forgotten and itachi just owned naruto and ...gone.filler all the way)...I can forgive the dumb charges, I can pretend that sasuke will be his friend again if he bring him back at force , I can forgive the fact that he is owned over and over and he always win using the force of plot, I  can ignore that konoha looks like a dumb nation sending him over and over to akatsuki hands while at the same time tryng to protect him,I can ignore a lot of things but this is too much.

 Goku is the main character even when dead, theres lots of other reasons but that is enough^_^


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## ExiledDragon (Jan 3, 2008)

This thread is full of people obsessed with Super Saiyan penis, and so it'd be hard to talk sense into them.  

DBZ, great for it's time.  Awful now.


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## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

ExiledDragon said:


> This thread is full of people obsessed with Super Saiyan penis, and so it'd be hard to talk sense into them.
> 
> DBZ, great for it's time.  Awful now.



There is no such manga named Dragonball Z. Try that again while explaining how Naruto is better.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jan 3, 2008)

Naruto's boring and repetitive. Every arc is about some guys past and how Naruto's like "oh em gee i know how it is dood". Dragon Ball's the best manga ever written. Naruto's fodder.


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## Kuroro (Jan 3, 2008)

Son Goku was awesome before DBZ came about. Afterwards, he became one of the most memorable "Gary Stus" I have ever seen for the shounen genre. Heck, I find Gohan to be a better and more overly enjoyable character than Goku. 

Naruto started out good, like Goku, but went downhill after a while. But that deals with how the mangaka treats the main character. WTF Kishi? Part II started in 2005 and the main character has still not had a serious fight despite the fact we went through a major training arc, has been made _deliberately_ stupid on several occasions, etc etc. I just hope with Naruto that we don't have another arc focused on the topic of "Sasuke Retrieval".

Anyway, I find Naruto more enjoyable, but that's simply my character preference.


----------



## Sylar (Jan 3, 2008)

> Naruto's boring and repetitive. Every arc is about some guys past and how Naruto's like "oh em gee i know how it is dood". Dragon Ball's the best manga ever written. Naruto's fodder.



I wouldn't go THAT far....

Monster and Berserk would disagree. 

But seriously anyone who thinks Naruto is better than Goku gets no pity from me. 
Enjoy your 2D character and his failure of a battle style.


----------



## Kuroro (Jan 3, 2008)

Sylar said:


> But seriously anyone who thinks Naruto is better than Goku gets no pity from me.



Right. Naruto is as interesting as watching dried paint flake off of a wall and no one can believe differently than you. 



> Enjoy your 2D character and his failure of a battle style.



Naruto's "failure of a battle style" descends straight from Goku.

- Kage Bushin? Kamahema.
- Rasengan? Spirit Bomb.
- Kyuubi? SS1 - SS3.

Naruto isn't known for variety or anything of the sort, but Goku is in the same boat as well.


----------



## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

The hell? Goku's style is hand to hand combat utilizing massive superhuman speed as well as tricking his opponents into making opening rather then using clone tricks which is 99% of Naruto's.


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## Kuroro (Jan 3, 2008)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> The hell? Goku's style is hand to hand combat utilizing massive superhuman speed as well as tricking his opponents into making opening rather then using clone tricks which is 99% of Naruto's.



Naruto's style consists of using clones which utilize hand-to-hand combat utilizing superhuman speed and other associated abilities in order to trick the opponent and create an opening. Kishi has no problems finding new ways for Naruto to exploit his clones, his current problem seems to be writing a situation where we see it instead of the same old routine. Goku's style got old and standard too after a while.

Both Goku and Naruto do possess fighting-styles which share similar concepts. For example, we keep on seeing Naruto make bigger and bigger Rasengans, which reminds me out of the several occasions where we saw Goku keep on making bigger and bigger Spirit Bombs.


----------



## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

What? No he doesn't. What did he do against Mizuki? Spammed and overwhelmed with Kage Bunshin numbers. Against Kimimaro and Zabuza? Same thing, but failed. Against Sasuke and Neji? Failed more with Kage Bunshins. Against Gaara? Once more failure in that department.

Secondly, you clearly haven't read Dragonball if you think his only other tactic is Genkai Dama.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jan 3, 2008)

Naruto's just a bad rip off of Son Goku.


----------



## Kuroro (Jan 3, 2008)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> What? No he doesn't. What did he do against Mizuki? Spammed and overwhelmed with Kage Bunshin numbers.



Mizuki? Wasn't that guy almost as bad as Naruto in terms of fighting skill?



> Against Kimimaro and Zabuza? Same thing, but failed.



Naruto got what he wanted in regards with Zabuza - Freeing Kakashi. Against Kimimaro? Going into a Kyuubi-induced rage made things rather cumbersome.



> Against Sasuke and Neji? Failed more with Kage Bunshins.



You got me with Sasuke. Naruto spammed KB like he did against Kimimaro. Against Neji though? Naruto got two clean shots by predicting what Neji would do ahead of time.



> Against Gaara? Once more failure in that department.



It was only a failure until Gaara transformed himself into his full-fledged Shukaku form. The Gaara fight would be one of the best fights where we saw a variety in how Naruto uses his signature technique.



> Secondly, you clearly haven't read Dragonball if you think his only other tactic is Genkai Dama.



It's been a while, a few years actually since I've picked up the manga. But still, my point of how Goku has influenced Naruto's character still stands. Heck, who hasn't Goku and Toriyama heavily influenced?



Cell said:


> Naruto's just a bad rip off of Son Goku.


Son Goku is a classic, and it's hard to compete against the classics. Son Goku started off great before things went downhill. Same thing with Naruto. But I find Naruto to be a better character simply because he is challenged and seeing him fail and continue to get back-up to be interesting while seeing Goku continually getting a free ride on things got dull after a while. 

Naruto seems more like a hybrid between Goku and Gohan now that I think about it.


----------



## Sylar (Jan 3, 2008)

Naruto uses rasengan at least once per fight...

Goku uses the Spirit Bomb a grand total of *3* times. That's it. Vegeta, Frieza, and Buu.


----------



## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

Naruto accomplishing an objective has nothing to do with his absolutely shitty fighting style of rushing his opponents and trying to use the number of his clones to overwhelm them.

That isn't remotely similar to Goku's style.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jan 3, 2008)

Naruto's just a little brat. Goku's a valiant d00d.


----------



## Yamato-takeru (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with Kuroro. 

Seriously, didn't Naruto always show variety in using KB? Like against Kiba or Neji.


----------



## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

Not at all. Goku's innovation with the Turtle Wave certainly shits on the Rasengan's inflexibility.


----------



## Yamato-takeru (Jan 3, 2008)

What innovation do you mean? 

Though I remember him doing something in the Radditz fight.


----------



## Perfect Moron (Jan 3, 2008)

kakoishii said:


> you sure? Didn't Gohan stop fighting after Buu was defeated? I'm pretty sure he stopped training after that point and thus became out of shape



That was at the beginning of the Buu saga. After that, Goku ssj3 was even with fat Buu, and Gohan with the Mystic Gohan power up he got from that old Kaioshin was stomping Super Buu.


----------



## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

Yamato-takeru said:


> What innovation do you mean?
> 
> Though I remember him doing something in the Radditz fight.



He has used people's own abilities against them, 23rd Tenachi Budokai...he tricked Tien and used his 12 eyes advantage against him by blinding all of them and understanding that his strength was divided into 1/4th for each clone.

He also countered Muten Roshi's Drunk style and then again used Freeza's Kiezan against himself.

Not too mention he learned a technique that took over fifty years for Muten Roshi to create and perfect in a few minutes and also performed it with his fucking feet.


----------



## Proxy (Jan 3, 2008)

DBZ will always be the best, to me. Goku's transformation to SS level, alone, is much better than anything I've seen in Naruto.


----------



## Kuroro (Jan 3, 2008)

Sylar said:


> Naruto uses rasengan at least once per fight...


...so? Use the technique as long as it continues to work. It'd be no different from what Goku or any other shounen protagonist would do.



> Goku uses the Spirit Bomb a grand total of *3* times. That's it. Vegeta, Frieza, and Buu.



Goku made a small Spirit Bomb (SB) against Vegeta, he made a bigger SB against Frieze, and he made an even bigger SB against Buu. Naruto used Rasengan against Kabuto, used a bigger Rasengan against Itachi, and used an even bigger Rasengan against Kakuzu.



Shiroi Kiba said:


> Naruto accomplishing an objective has nothing to do with his absolutely shitty fighting style of rushing his opponents and trying to use the number of his clones to overwhelm them.



Naruto hasn't spammed KB ever since his fight with Kimimaro. The only time Naruto ever sent out _hordes_ to deal with his opponents were against Sasuke and Kimimaro. Naruto used a bunch of clones in part I because Kishimoto deliberately made him not one of the the most skilled fighters in existance and he was continually up against superior foes, i.e. Zabuza. Still, he showed innovation with them and tactical forethought. Naruto wasn't the smartest guy around, like Goku, but he could get the job done.

 For Part II, he sends out a predetermined amount of clones to set the target(s) up and hit em' hard as fast as possible. It'd be no different from how a SWAT squad would work.



> That isn't remotely similar to Goku's style.



I never said Goku's fighting-style and Naruto's fighting-style were carbon copies of each other, but seeing Goku's influence on a few aspects of Naruto is clearly evident.



Perfect Moron said:


> That was at the beginning of the Buu saga. After that, Goku ssj3 was even with fat Buu, and Gohan with the Mystic Gohan power up he got from that old Kaioshin was stomping Super Buu.



Whenever I decide to pick up DB again, I'll probably have to jump to Gohan and Buu before rereading the series all over again.


----------



## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

Not its not. Naruto has also used Rasengan against Sasuke twice, and performed it twice against Kakuzu.

Your comparing a Genkai shown three times in the manga to gasp...a Rasengan that has been shown and used by Naruto over ten times in less then 200 chapters.


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## Sylar (Jan 3, 2008)

> Goku made a small Spirit Bomb (SB) against Vegeta, he made a bigger SB against Frieze, and he made an even bigger SB against Buu. Naruto used Rasengan against Kabuto, used a bigger Rasengan against Itachi, and used an even bigger Rasengan against Kakuzu.



He also used a rasengan against Sasuke on the roof on the hospital, twice in their fight at the end of part 1, used one against Deidara, and used one against Yamato in their spar before they went to capture Sasori's spy.

This is not including of course the many failed ones he attempted.


----------



## Kuroro (Jan 3, 2008)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Not its not. Naruto has also used Rasengan against Sasuke twice, and performed it twice against Kakuzu.



That's nice to know. I didn't know being technical on this particular thing was that important.



> Your comparing a Genkai shown three times in the manga to gasp...a Rasengan that has been shown and used by Naruto over ten times in less then 200 chapters.



Rasengan and Spirit Bomb both do the same thing: Make craters. The bigger the bombs become, the bigger craters they make, and we've seen both "bombs" get bigger and bigger as both series progressed. How are they not similar?



Sylar said:


> He also used a rasengan against Sasuke on the roof on the hospital, twice in their fight at the end of part 1, used one against Deidara, and used one against Yamato in their spar before they went to capture Sasori's spy.



Alright, let's be technical. Naruto used the same Rasengan against Kabuto and other people, used a bigger Rasengan against Itachi, and used an even bigger Rasengan against Kakuzu.



> This is not including of course the many failed ones he attempted.



When he was learning the jutsu and attempting to complete it? Instances of screwing up on occasions when you're not overflowing with talent like Goku is bound to be expected.


----------



## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

They were on completely different functions. The Genkai Dama is a completely last restort technique/weapon for Goku.

The Rasengan is always wiped out by Naruto. What did he do against Tobi? Charged and tried to Rasengan him through the stomach.


----------



## Sylar (Jan 3, 2008)

> Rasengan and Spirit Bomb both do the same thing: Make craters. The bigger the bombs become, the bigger craters they make, and we've seen both "bombs" get bigger and bigger as both series progressed. How are they not similar?



So that's your big comparison? They make craters?


----------



## Kuroro (Jan 3, 2008)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> They were on completely different functions. The Genkai Dama is a completely last restort technique/weapon for Goku.


They both do the same thing. They both became bigger and bigger as the villains became increasingly powerful. The Genkai Dama is a trump card, no different from something like FRS would be a trump card for Naruto.



> The Rasengan is always wiped out by Naruto.



Didn't Vegeta interfere with Goku's attempt with the SB and even survive it? Didn't Frieza survive Goku's SB? Didn't Goku initially have trouble using the SB against Buu? Sounds like Goku has had some trouble just how Naruto is paired off on occasion against people who can survive a Rasengan, like Kabuto.



> What did he do against Tobi? Charged and tried to Rasengan him through the stomach.



No he didn't. Naruto had a clone attack Tobi from behind. Naruto had no idea that attacks could phase through Tobi. He never charged at Tobi from the front attempting to hit him with a Rasengan.

And let me put a spin on it - Why shouldn't the number one candidate for final villain be able to stop Naruto atm?



Sylar said:


> So that's your big comparison? They make craters?



Were you expecting something else? They both make craters and they became bigger and bigger as the story progressed. It also seems people have a tendency of surviving such attacks on occasion.


----------



## Sylar (Jan 3, 2008)

Its not a trump card if you use it every fight...


----------



## Kira U. Masaki (Jan 3, 2008)

i like the naruto manga more, but you cant top goku, there both really similar, mad power, can turn into an alternative form, are dumb but smart when in a battle , ill give to goku because of the first ss transformation against freeza, adn the first ss3 transformation against buu


----------



## Kuroro (Jan 3, 2008)

Sylar said:


> Its not a trump card if you use it every fight...



Naruto won't use the super-duper Rasengan he used against Kakuzu in every fight. Goku won't use the super-duper SB he used against Buu in every fight.


----------



## Sylar (Jan 3, 2008)

Kuroro said:


> Naruto won't use the super-duper Rasengan he used against Kakuzu in every fight. Goku won't use the super-duper SB he used against Buu in every fight.



You compared the rasengan to the SB yet fail to realize that Goku almost never uses the SB while Naruto ALWAYS uses the rasengan....


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 3, 2008)

You know, a Spirit Bomb doesn't have a bunch of variations, unlike the Rasengan.  The Spirit Bomb is only used as a last resort while the Rasengan has some different versions which are used often, depending on the situation.

You're better off comparing the Rasengan to the Kamehameha.


----------



## Proxy (Jan 3, 2008)

In comparing techniques, SB vs. Rasengan isn't accurate. It would've been better to compare the Kamehameha to Rasengan based on its amount of uses. For the most part, people in DBZ fires off countless smaller ki blasts then used a signature move. Likewise, in Naruto, he uses his KB for basic combat and if it gets to be too much, he uses Rasengan.


----------



## Kuroro (Jan 3, 2008)

Sylar said:


> You compared the rasengan to the SB yet fail to realize that Goku almost never uses the SB while Naruto ALWAYS uses the rasengan....



Yeah, I compared Rasengan to SB. They both do the same thing, they became bigger as the series progressed, and demonstrations where both techniques failed are present. I'd like to know though where I stated Rasengan to be a carbon-copy of SB.



Proxy said:


> In comparing techniques, SB vs. Rasengan isn't accurate. It would've been better to compare the Kamehameha to Rasengan based on its amount of uses. For the most part, people in DBZ fires off countless smaller ki blasts then used a signature move. Likewise, in Naruto, he uses his KB for basic combat and if it gets to be too much, he uses Rasengan.



 KB seems more comparable to Kamehameha than to anything else. Goku throughout the series found a variety of ways to use his signature move (he fired it off with his feet one time and made several blasts against Frieza if I remember correctly) and combined it with additional abilities. If I remember right, Goku combined Kamehameha with Instant Transmition when he fought Cell. Naruto turned the Kamahameha technique into a deadly technique. Naruto, for example, has combined KB with Henge on several occasions in addition to other abilities, and he does make KB exceptionally deadly.


----------



## Sylar (Jan 3, 2008)

Naruto uses 3 moves.

KB
Rasengan w/ variations
Henge

That's it. That's all. He doesn't use ANY other jutsu.


----------



## Kuroro (Jan 3, 2008)

Sylar said:


> Naruto uses 3 moves.
> 
> KB
> Rasengan w/ variations
> ...



KB + Variations
Rasengan + Variations
Henge
Shunshin
Kawarimi
Kuchiyose
Hien
"That jutsu"
Kyuubi


I'm probably missing a few things for Naruto, but it seems he knows a few more things than the jutsus you have listed.


----------



## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

Naruto has never used Shunshin. Your thinking of Sasuke and Kakashi. The Kyuubi isn't a ninjutsu and that jutsu is irrevelant as he has never used it.


----------



## Jaga (Jan 3, 2008)

Goku is cooler, but Naruto's story is more interesting. But if they were both real, I'd rather meet Goku


----------



## Fang (Jan 3, 2008)

All he has ever used is Kage Bunshin, Rasengan and its variant forms, Fuuton Rasengan and FRS and Henge twice.


----------



## Aokiji (Jan 4, 2008)

Kuroro said:


> Rasengan and Spirit Bomb both do the same thing: Make craters. The bigger the bombs become, the bigger craters they make, and we've seen both "bombs" get bigger and bigger as both series progressed. How are they not similar?



OMG, what the fuck is this shit?! 

So going by your definition, nuclear bombs are the same as rasengan/genkidama, since they make craters.


----------



## hcheng02 (Jan 4, 2008)

Cell said:


> Seriously, Goku is the essence of good. He lets every one of his enemies live and has tons of mercy. Naruto, on many occasions, just wants to kill his enemies and become Hokage. He's a little selfish turd.





Cell said:


> Naruto's boring and repetitive. Every arc is about some guys past and how Naruto's like "oh em gee i know how it is dood". Dragon Ball's the best manga ever written. Naruto's fodder.



Goku has killed plenty of times, so I don't know what you're talking about. Both Naruto and Goku accept that its sometimes necessary to kill, but they aren't sadistic or relish killing. I also fail to see how DBZ storylines are more innovative than Naruto's. Really, the story is just that newer stronger baddies show up, which the Z team (by which I mean Goku or Gohan) have to beat up. 

Also, the DBZ tards here are really deluding themselves if they don't see at least some resemblance between Rasengan and Kamehameha or Spirit Bomb. Fundamentally, they are all large, destructive, and explosive energy attacks. They aren't exactly precision weapons either. 

People who say that Naruto's jutsu repertoire is small seem to forget thats the case with Goku as well. Goku has 2 signature attacks: Kamehameha and Spirit Bomb. As he grew stronger, he made his attacks bigger and more destructive. Thats likewise the case with Naruto and his Rasengans. It ain't rocket science people.

I love DBZ and still do, but I see it as it is whereas some people are saying that its Shakespeare compared to Naruto when it ain't.


----------



## Fang (Jan 4, 2008)

First off, the Genkai Dama is nothing like the Rasengan for Goku as it is for Naruto. It is a last restort tactic, a final trump card to take victory. Rasengan is always used by Naruto and spammed with his Kage Bunshins.

How many times is Genkai Dama used in Dragonball? In nearly four hundred chapters, three times.

The Turtle Wave isn't Goku's only Ki attack and you seem to be ignorning Goku's use of his ki or turning his own opponents special abilities or techniques into crutches to use against them.


----------



## hcheng02 (Jan 4, 2008)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> First off, the Genkai Dama is nothing like the Rasengan for Goku as it is for Naruto. It is a last restort tactic, a final trump card to take victory. Rasengan is always used by Naruto and spammed with his Kage Bunshins.
> 
> How many times is Genkai Dama used in Dragonball? In nearly four hundred chapters, three times.
> 
> The Turtle Wave isn't Goku's only Ki attack and you seem to be ignorning Goku's use of his ki or turning his own opponents special abilities or techniques into crutches to use against them.



Naruto's trump cards are Gamabunta and the Wind Rasengan. Both of them have only been used once. Both Goku and Naruto have there own respective trump cards. I suppose the Wind Rasengan is a closer relative to the Spirit Bomb then.

Turtle Wave isn't Goku's only Ki attack, but everybody in DBZ uses mini Ki blasts so that doesn't really count. Those tini ki blasts are on the same level of throwing ninja stars. Technically, they are more destructive but they are not really any more effective on enemies. Also, Naruto has turned his opponents own special abilities and such against them as well as seen in his fight with Kiba.


----------



## Fang (Jan 4, 2008)

Naruto used FRS twice against Kakuzu and almost instantly used it against Tobi.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jan 4, 2008)

Goku has a pretty nice list of special techniques. You have:
Kamehameha
Spirit Bomb
Solar Flare
Instant Transmission
Telepathy
Kaioken
Flight

That't not including the stuff he used as a kid or transformations.


----------



## Vago (Jan 4, 2008)

Goku owns Naruto.


----------



## Aokiji (Jan 4, 2008)

Dragonball has more than 500 chapters.


----------



## Dark Evangel (Jan 4, 2008)

hcheng02 said:


> Naruto's trump cards are Gamabunta and the *Wind Rasengan*. Both of them have only been used once. Both Goku and Naruto have there own respective trump cards. I suppose the *Wind Rasengan* is a closer relative to the *Spirit Bomb* then.
> 
> *Turtle Wave* isn't Goku's only Ki attack, but everybody in DBZ uses mini Ki blasts so that doesn't really count. Those tini ki blasts are on the same level of throwing *ninja stars*. Technically, they are more destructive but they are not really any more effective on enemies. Also, Naruto has turned his opponents own special abilities and such against them as well as seen in his fight with Kiba.


Have you been watching too much 4kids?


----------



## ExiledDragon (Jan 4, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> Goku has a pretty nice list of special techniques. You have:
> Kamehameha - How many notable fights has it won him?
> Spirit Bomb
> Solar Flare
> ...



Let's look at DBZ
Kamehameha - How many notable fights has it won him? 0.
Spirit Bomb - 1 notable fight.
Solar Flare - How many notable fights has it won him? 0.
Instant Transmission - How many notable fights has it won him? 0.
Telepathy - How many notable times has he used it?  once
Kaioken - How many notable fights has it won him? 0.
Flight - You're kidding?

DBZ goku is an awful character.  Stop lying to yourself.


I know DB and DBZ are technically the same all DB, but referring to them differently is much easier.


----------



## MdB (Jan 4, 2008)

ExiledDragon said:


> Let's look at DBZ
> Kamehameha - How many notable fights has it won him? 0.
> Spirit Bomb - 1 notable fight.
> Solar Flare - How many notable fights has it won him? 0.
> ...



You're an idiot if you think characterization is associated with the number of techniques you have. Not to mention Goku is a shitload better than some punk following its archetype (that is currently replaced by a Sasuke fetish). 

Indeed, GREAT DEVELOPMENTS.


----------



## ExiledDragon (Jan 4, 2008)

MdB said:


> You're an idiot if you think characterization is associated with the number of techniques you have. Not to mention Goku is a shitload better than some punk following its archetype (that is currently replaced by a Sasuke fetish).
> 
> Indeed, GREAT DEVELOPMENTS.



Really, but if you noticed, which i'm sure you didn't, I'm not the one who even brought up Goku's technique list.  Goku doesn't win any battle through technique anyway, he does it through sheer power.  DBZ has the A>B>C system, meaning PL equals everything.  Any character under that system is inherently shallow.  Piccolo, Vegeta, Tien, and even krillin go through character changes, but Goku does not.  He was a monster from the first chapter to the last.

Goku goes through absolutely 0 character development throughout the whole show.  He acts exactly the same as he did, in the beginning of DB.

Naruto doesn't go through a lot, but he goes through much more than Goku.  

I seem to get warned whenever I disagree with you guys.  Oh well.


----------



## Sylar (Jan 4, 2008)

I love how you say Kamehameha never won Goku a single fight.


----------



## Shikashi (Jan 4, 2008)

hcheng02 said:


> Goku has killed plenty of times, so I don't know what you're talking about. Both Naruto and Goku accept that its sometimes necessary to kill, but they aren't sadistic or relish killing. I also fail to see how DBZ storylines are more innovative than Naruto's. Really, the story is just that newer stronger baddies show up, which the Z team (by which I mean Goku or Gohan) have to beat up.
> 
> *Also, the DBZ tards here are really deluding themselves if they don't see at least some resemblance between Rasengan and Kamehameha or Spirit Bomb. Fundamentally, they are all large, destructive, and explosive energy attacks. They aren't exactly precision weapons either.*
> 
> ...


It's called "plagiarism".

And Son Goku has far more than 2 techniques, just because he has a lot of variations of one and relies on the other to kill the opponent when all else fails doesn't mean he only uses/has 2 techinques.

*Edit*, and by the way, I don't recall who said it, but someone mentioned that Dragon Balll's story isn't "INNOVASHIUN", well it did come out 22 years ago, I'm sure back then it was pretty cool.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jan 4, 2008)

ExiledDragon said:


> Let's look at DBZ
> Kamehameha - How many notable fights has it won him? 0.
> Spirit Bomb - 1 notable fight.
> Solar Flare - How many notable fights has it won him? 0.
> ...



Um . . .

Kamehameha: Won him the Vegeta fight(No Kamekameha = destroyed Earth)
Sprit Bomb:It's done what it's supposed to.
Instant Transmission: It's not an offensive move
Telepathy: On Namek
Kaioken: Nappa,Vegeta,The Ginyu Force, Freiza
Flight: It's always been known as a special technique, bakujutsu or something like that.

If you include Goku;s childhood Kamehameha won dozens of fights. 

People also seem to forget Gohan was the emphasis of the second part of the story.


----------



## MdB (Jan 4, 2008)

ExiledDragon said:


> Really, but if you noticed, which i'm sure you didn't, I'm not the one who even brought up Goku's technique list.  Goku doesn't win any battle through technique anyway, he does it through sheer power.  DBZ has the A>B>C system, meaning PL equals everything.  Any character under that system is inherently shallow.  Piccolo, Vegeta, Tien, and even krillin go through character changes, but Goku does not.  He was a monster from the first chapter to the last.



Except that associating a power system with characterization is plain retarded and irrelevent.



ExiledDragon said:


> Goku goes through absolutely 0 character development throughout the whole show.  He acts exactly the same as he did, in the beginning of DB.



And what does Naruto's character development consist off? Oh yeah, that's right, riding an Uchiha's dick. Kishimoto must be doing one hell of a job to make his developed Naruto unbearable. Truly grounbreaking....



ExiledDragon said:


> Naruto doesn't go through a lot, but he goes through much more than Goku.



Like what? Angsting too much for losing his so-called friend that he knew for a very short time? 



ExiledDragon said:


> I seem to get warned whenever I disagree with you guys.  Oh well.



......


----------



## Fang (Jan 4, 2008)

How the hell did Goku's character never get developed?


----------



## Sylar (Jan 4, 2008)

He never went emo, therefore he did not develop as a character.


----------



## hcheng02 (Jan 4, 2008)

Shikashi said:


> It's called "plagiarism".
> 
> And Son Goku has far more than 2 techniques, just because he has a lot of variations of one and relies on the other to kill the opponent when all else fails doesn't mean he only uses/has 2 techinques.
> 
> *Edit*, and by the way, I don't recall who said it, but someone mentioned that Dragon Balll's story isn't "INNOVASHIUN", well it did come out 22 years ago, I'm sure back then it was pretty cool.



Naruto is roughly modeled after Goku, but he is hardly a carbon copy. Thats like saying all superpowered comic book superheroes are copies of Superman since Supes was the original. And yes Goku does use other techniques like teleporting, flying and going SSJ, just like how Naruto also uses henge, substitution, and goes Kyuubi. But primarily Goku uses 2 techs to end fights: Kamehameha and Spirit Bomb. Likewise, Naruto usually uses Rasengan and Kage Bunshin (and summoning if you count Gamabunta) to beat his enemies. Both have a rather limited repertoire of moves and use variations of heir signature moves rather than learn completely new ones.

People are forgetting that Naruto has other relationships besides the one with Sasuke. One major one would be his relationship with Sakura, which has certainly developed a lot. I would say its better developed than Goku's relationship with Chi Chi. His rivalry with Sasuke is also a lot different from Goku's rivalry with Vegeta. I don't think Goku really took that rivalry too seriously as opposed to Naruto.

I'm wondering though, has Goku ever faced a huge setback before akin to Naruto not getting Sasuke back? I can't really think of any huge personal setbacks for Goku.


----------



## ExiledDragon (Jan 4, 2008)

How the hell did it get developed?  DB is not a manga based on friendship, and thus will not have the mushy content that you obviously can't stand.  Goku is a shallow character, and you'd have to be an idiot to disagree.  I've noticed that instead of actually arguing my points, you guys just keep repeating your biased nostalgic garbage.  Naruto's attachment to Sasuke has a reason, nothing Goku does really has a reason.

Naruto is a shallow character, but he went from screw-up, to a force to be reckoned with.  And although naruto wins his fights with nukes, it's usually coupled with intelligence.  Goku does nothing of the sort.  If idiots are your thing Goku is a great character, after all, in the buu saga, he and vegeta seemed to have a merry time gambling with the fate of the universe for kicks.


----------



## Fang (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for providing all of us with concrete evidence that you have never once read Dragonball at all.


----------



## ExiledDragon (Jan 4, 2008)

hcheng02 said:


> Naruto is roughly modeled after Goku, but he is hardly a carbon copy. Thats like saying all superpowered comic book superheroes are copies of Superman since Supes was the original. And yes Goku does use other techniques like teleporting, flying and going SSJ, just like how Naruto also uses henge, substitution, and goes Kyuubi. But primarily Goku uses 2 techs to end fights: Kamehameha and Spirit Bomb. Likewise, Naruto usually uses Rasengan and Kage Bunshin (and summoning if you count Gamabunta) to beat his enemies. Both have a rather limited repertoire of moves and use variations of heir signature moves rather than learn completely new ones.
> 
> People are forgetting that Naruto has other relationships besides the one with Sasuke. One major one would be his relationship with Sakura, which has certainly developed a lot. I would say its better developed than Goku's relationship with Chi Chi. His rivalry with Sasuke is also a lot different from Goku's rivalry with Vegeta. I don't think Goku really took that rivalry too seriously as opposed to Naruto.
> 
> I'm wondering though, has Goku ever faced a huge setback before akin to Naruto not getting Sasuke back? I can't really think of any huge personal setbacks for Goku.



He lost to Master Roshi, and came back after a couple power ups and was stronger than him.

Taiopaipai or what's his face, and came back after a power up and was stronger than him.

He lost to Tien, by luck.

He lost to king Piccolo, and came back after one power up and was stronger than him.


But Goku has never lost a fight out of real plot twist.  You usually know he's going to win for awhile into the fight.  Because PL means everything.  If you're weaker at the start, you'll usually be weaker at the end.


----------



## ExiledDragon (Jan 4, 2008)

TWF said:


> Thanks for providing all of us with concrete evidence that you have never once read Dragonball at all.



Thanks for providing concrete proof that i'm wrong.  Wait...


----------



## hcheng02 (Jan 4, 2008)

ExiledDragon said:


> He lost to Master Roshi, and came back after a couple power ups and was stronger than him.
> 
> Taiopaipai or what's his face, and came back after a power up and was stronger than him.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if those count as real setbacks. Yes, he did lose but was there really a huge personal stake in it?


----------



## Sylar (Jan 4, 2008)

Goku lost to Cell. Badly.

Goku lost to Buu. TWICE.

After Goku beat Frieza, he never won against a major villain in canon, save for the final form of Buu.


----------



## mecketh (Jan 5, 2008)

hcheng02 said:


> I'm not sure if those count as real setbacks. Yes, he did lose but was there really a huge personal stake in it?


Tao pai pai killed a friend of him, the one that told you about the tower,goku tried to avenge his death and lost BADLY, later goku have to go to huge expenses to deafet tao pai pai and ressurect him.

Piccollo dai mao killed a very personal friend of goku, someone that he build up a relationship for years.read the manga its a very important moment ...

Besides why goku would even care about chi chi?he saw her for a couple days when a child and made a promisse whitout knowing what it means, YEARS later she come back and he marries her not for love but because he promissed...she?s cool but goku never showed a lot of concern for her from the beggining.We know that he cares a lot about gohan (he show that lots of times) and he never developed a relationship whith goten.

Pick goku at 15 and naruto at 15, naruto is the same but cry a lot more about sasuke.Goku have the same basic personality but evolved a lot.


----------



## mystictrunks (Jan 5, 2008)

ExiledDragon said:


> He lost to Master Roshi, and came back after a couple power ups and was stronger than him.
> 
> Taiopaipai or what's his face, and came back after a power up and was stronger than him.
> 
> ...



Cell, getting ass raped by Vegeta, his spirit bomb flopping like a fish out of watter against Freiza.


----------



## Fang (Jan 5, 2008)

Not too mention having his arms and legs broken by Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai.


----------



## Yamato-takeru (Jan 5, 2008)

TWF said:


> Not too mention having his arms and legs broken by Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai.



That makes me remember...
Mh, I think it's time to reread DB.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jan 5, 2008)

TWF said:


> Not too mention having his arms and legs broken by Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai.



I just watched that fight yesterday.


----------



## Shikashi (Jan 5, 2008)

hcheng02 said:


> Naruto is roughly modeled after Goku, but he is hardly a carbon copy. Thats like saying all superpowered comic book superheroes are copies of Superman since Supes was the original. And yes Goku does use other techniques like teleporting, flying and going SSJ, just like how Naruto also uses henge, substitution, and goes Kyuubi. But primarily Goku uses 2 techs to end fights: Kamehameha and Spirit Bomb. Likewise, Naruto usually uses Rasengan and Kage Bunshin (and summoning if you count Gamabunta) to beat his enemies. Both have a rather limited repertoire of moves and use variations of heir signature moves rather than learn completely new ones.



No. Naruto uses Kage Bunshin like there's no tomorrow and Rasengan at least twice every fight (exaggeration). While Son Goku does rely on those techniques (Kamehameha and Genki Dama) quite a few times he doesn't spend 90% of the bout using them, like the other useless bitch. If Son Goku used his techniques like Naruto uses his, it would have been:

Son Goku vs Vegeta: As soon as the bout starts, use Kamehameha, get your ass handed to you, use Genki Dama, win the fight;

Son Goku vs Frieza: As soon as the bout starts, use Kamehameha, get your ass handed to you, use Genki Dama, win the fight;

Son Goku vs Cell: As soon as the bout starts, use Kamehameha, get your ass handed to you, use Genki Dama, win the fight;

Son Goku vs Buu: As soon as the bout starts, use Kamehameha, get your ass handed to you, use Genki Dama, win the fight;

His fighting style is much more sophisticated too, he comes up with strategies as the bout goes, he surprises the enemy, he kicks ass in close quarters, he kicks ass in long range, his fighting style is perfect. I can't recall Son Goku having flaws in his logic/abilities, while Naruto is clearly flawed and dumb.



hcheng02 said:


> I'm wondering though, has Goku ever faced a huge setback before akin to Naruto not getting Sasuke back? I can't really think of any huge personal setbacks for Goku.


And no, Son Goku didn't face (m)any setbacks, thank God, Dragon Ball would have stank then, like Naruto stinks now. He did die a couple of times though, clearly not as big a stepback as chasing down an emo ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) on a whim. It's not like people are forcing Naruto to chase Sasuke either, he just wants to.

"OH, BUT NARTUO AND SASUGAY ARE SO GOOD FRIENDS! THEY LUVS EACHOTHER, NARUTO AHS TO CHASE HIM DOWN!!!1!1"

Yeah...erm, no. Sasuke made his owns choices, accept them and move on. Didn't the punk have a dream of becoming Hokage or something? I swear he must have taken it down from his priority list.



hcheng02 said:


> People are forgetting that Naruto has other relationships besides the one with Sasuke. One major one would be his relationship with Sakura, which has certainly developed a lot. I would say its better developed than Goku's relationship with Chi Chi. His rivalry with Sasuke is also a lot different from Goku's rivalry with Vegeta. I don't think Goku really took that rivalry too seriously as opposed to Naruto.


What? Son Goku got laid at least more than twice, Naruto is a virgin, how's that for development?

Son Goku didn't took his rivalry with Vegeta as serious as Naruto did with Sasuke? Are you kidding? Goku begged Krillin to let Vegeta live to fight him one more time, that's not taking it seriously, correct? Just because Vegeta didn't go emo and Son Goku didn't become a Vegeta'tard doesn't mean that the rivalry wasn't taken seriously, just means that Vegeta wasn't a whiny little bitch and that Goku used his spare time to practice instead of pursuing the love of his love, like Naruto's doing.
It was actually taken so seriously that if lasted until Dragon Ball stopped being written.


----------



## Fang (Jan 5, 2008)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I just watched that fight yesterday.



Yeah it was fucking awesome.

Dragonball does Shonen Jump right. Naruto on the other hand...


----------



## Shikashi (Jan 5, 2008)

TWF said:


> Yeah it was fucking awesome.
> 
> Dragonball does Shonen Jump right. Naruto on the other hand...


Moar liek, Toriyama-sensei is Shounen's father.


----------



## hcheng02 (Jan 6, 2008)

Shikashi said:


> No. Naruto uses Kage Bunshin like there's no tomorrow and Rasengan at least twice every fight (exaggeration). While Son Goku does rely on those techniques (Kamehameha and Genki Dama) quite a few times he doesn't spend 90% of the bout using them, like the other useless bitch. If Son Goku used his techniques like Naruto uses his, it would have been:
> 
> Son Goku vs Vegeta: As soon as the bout starts, use Kamehameha, get your ass handed to you, use Genki Dama, win the fight;
> 
> ...



You are vastly oversimplifying Naruto's KB tactics, as he has used them in very sophisticated ways. He shows a wide variety of KB usage. Some examples include:
1. His combined henge and KB feint with Sasuke to free Kakashi from Zabuza.
2. His combination henge and KB to surprise the Rain ninjas in the Chuunin Exam.
3. His KB and henge to capture Akamaru during his fight with Kiba.
4. His mass rush on partally transformed Gaara.
5. Using a KB to help him maneuver in the air to dodge a shruiken during his second bell test.
6. His classic KB feint with Rasengan.
7. Speeding up his training with KB

Your description of Naruto's fighting style is like me saying that all Goku does is fly, throw really fast punches, spams ki blasts, tosses in an occassional Kamehamha and powerup, and then finishes with Spirit Bomb if he needs to. All of which does not sound very sophisticated, despite the fact that Goku really was a talented fighter.



> And no, Son Goku didn't face (m)any setbacks, thank God, Dragon Ball would have stank then, like Naruto stinks now. He did die a couple of times though, clearly not as big a stepback as chasing down an emo ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) on a whim. It's not like people are forcing Naruto to chase Sasuke either, he just wants to.
> 
> "OH, BUT NARTUO AND SASUGAY ARE SO GOOD FRIENDS! THEY LUVS EACHOTHER, NARUTO AHS TO CHASE HIM DOWN!!!1!1"
> 
> Yeah...erm, no. Sasuke made his owns choices, accept them and move on. Didn't the punk have a dream of becoming Hokage or something? I swear he must have taken it down from his priority list.



If you read the manga you would know that Naruto has connected bringing Sasuke back as an important step to proving himself worthy to be Hokage. 

Maybe its just me, but I liked the quieter moments when Naruto wrestles with his doubts and insecurities. An example of that would be right before his match-up with Neji. Everyone has those kinds of moments of quiet reflection, and Naruto doing something like that humanizes him. Of course, anti-Narutards just write off any thinking of feelings and mental states as emo faggotry. 



> What? Son Goku got laid at least more than twice, Naruto is a virgin, how's that for development?



So in your mind sex = character development? That explains a lot.

I don't see how Goku's and Chi Chi's relationship is better developed than Naruto's and Sakura's. Sakura went from open disdain to grudging acceptance to open admiration and slight feelings of romance for Naruto after spending lots of time with him. Naruto has romantic feelings for Sakura but also holds them back because he thinks Sakura loves Sasuke. What the hell kind of development did Goku and Chi Chi have? Goku made a promise to marry her as a child when he was too young to understand the concept. They don't meet again in ages, and then Chi Chi basically pops back and tells Goku to marry her. Goku does too keep his word, and not out of any feelings at all. 



> Son Goku didn't took his rivalry with Vegeta as serious as Naruto did with Sasuke? Are you kidding? Goku begged Krillin to let Vegeta live to fight him one more time, that's not taking it seriously, correct? Just because Vegeta didn't go emo and Son Goku didn't become a Vegeta'tard doesn't mean that the rivalry wasn't taken seriously, just means that *Vegeta wasn't a whiny little bitch* and that Goku used his spare time to practice instead of pursuing the love of his love, like Naruto's doing.
> It was actually taken so seriously that if lasted until Dragon Ball stopped being written.



Vegeta wasn't a whiny emo bitch? Are we reading talking about the same Vegeta here? The guy from DBZ? Because I lost count of the times he would whine about how he, the great prince of the Saiyins, was inferior to the "low class soldier" Goku. Vegeta got the living shit beat out of him every arc, usually multiple times in fact. Not to mention the fact that usually he had no relevant victories. Then he'd scream about how much weaker he was then Goku, who never stopped outclassing him. From getting 10 times stronger then him from 1 day in the time chamber despite Vegeta going there twice, to purposefully holding back SSJ3 after Vegeta sold out all his friends and family, to ruining the Earth's chances for victory over Cell by letting him live due to his own stupidity and arrogance (which would of avoided a lot of hardship later on). To paraphrase another poster, Vegeta was alright during the early arcs, but after that he was a goddamn joke.

You might call Sasuke emo and I'm not too fond of Sasuke myself, but I give him credit where its due. At lesat, he's been making a lot of progress in the manga, whereas Vegeta was stuck running in circles.

I might also add thats its a bit hard to take dying seriously in DBZ when people are readily resurrected. Naruto generally avoids this problem (with the exception of Gaara). But whatever, its the "cool" thing to diss Naruto nowadays in these forums.


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2008)

Your arugments are also over-inflating Naruto's skill with the Rasengan. He used a simple Kage Bunshin, henged and let the real one which he switched with to save Kakashi.

That wasn't on his own. The only time he was truly noteworthy was against Kakuzu and that can still be considered PIS.


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## mecketh (Jan 6, 2008)

hcheng02 said:


> You are vastly oversimplifying Naruto's KB tactics, as he has used them in very sophisticated ways. He shows a wide variety of KB usage. Some examples include:
> 1. His combined henge and KB feint with Sasuke to free Kakashi from Zabuza.
> 2. His combination henge and KB to surprise the Rain ninjas in the Chuunin Exam.
> 3. His KB and henge to capture Akamaru during his fight with Kiba.
> ...



 The problem in your argument is that naruto never was really a talented fighter, his basic fight style sucks and the tricks you posted are usually his best hope for survival because he never plan anything before charge like a dumbass.

 Just to give some  examples: compare the perfomance of sasuke and naruto in zabuza ark, naruto uses ONE  smart move(his best in the series in my opinion) , almost all the other instances that he acted he screwed up.sasuke performance is almost flawless and he could have won by hinself if naruto wasnt there(and he was able to use the lessons of kakashi in a martial manner  by reflex) , against Kiba he almost losed his chance to win(sakura was the one to remenber him to atack and use his naruto combo...), against neji he charged when EVERY single person knew that this was a dumb mistake  if neji wasnt in emo mode he would have won easealy,in the forest he was outclassed by sasuke at every turn, etc etc.



> If you read the manga you would know that Naruto has connected bringing Sasuke back as an important step to proving himself worthy to be Hokage.



 This is cool and all, except that the way he does this is dumb.Bringing sasuke back at force will do nothing to the lost friendship, if it will explain how.

 Naruto acts like a dumb girfriend and in real world he would have gained a restraint order, this is not mature at all , is bordeline creepy.



> I don't see how Goku's and Chi Chi's relationship is better developed than Naruto's and Sakura's. Sakura went from open disdain to grudging acceptance to open admiration and slight feelings of romance for Naruto after spending lots of time with him. Naruto has romantic feelings for Sakura but also holds them back because he thinks Sakura loves Sasuke. What the hell kind of development did Goku and Chi Chi have? Goku made a promise to marry her as a child when he was too young to understand the concept. They don't meet again in ages, and then Chi Chi basically pops back and tells Goku to marry her. Goku does too keep his word, and not out of any feelings at all.



 But after that they share a live like a couple and both are able to understand the needs and feelings of the other.Also most of the time they talk like adults do about their problemns in live. I cant say that Goku l though a lot about her in the midle of the batles or training  but this is just toryama way of doing things(he hates writing love histories), and you can see that in the time they spend togheter they live happy.

 I cant say anything about sakura and naruto relationship because I cant see why naruto love her in the first place.She is not a beaty(words of the autor), isnt the most popular, never was kind to him, isnt strong and likes another guy. And yet we start the series whith him crazy in love for her?Any love should have being crushed by the treatments he received...



> Vegeta wasn't a whiny emo bitch? Are we reading talking about the same Vegeta here? The guy from DBZ? Because I lost count of the times he would whine about how he, the great prince of the Saiyins, was inferior to the "low class soldier" Goku. Vegeta got the living shit beat out of him every arc, usually multiple times in fact. Not to mention the fact that usually he had no relevant victories. Then he'd scream about how much weaker he was then Goku, who never stopped outclassing him. From getting 10 times stronger then him from 1 day in the time chamber despite Vegeta going there twice, to purposefully holding back SSJ3 after Vegeta sold out all his friends and family, to ruining the Earth's chances for victory over Cell by letting him live due to his own stupidity and arrogance (which would of avoided a lot of hardship later on). To paraphrase another poster, Vegeta was alright during the early arcs, but after that he was a goddamn joke.



 Vegeta wasnt emo, he would become pissed and complain a litle but soon afterwards he would stand and try harder whitout looking back.Most of time its like: 
??Kakaroto is stronger than me again!damn!I have to train harder and show how awesome I amto everyone!??; also most of the time he only have pissed thoughs like everybody, he didnt cry like a litle girl every single setback like someone.... the fact that he never managed to surpass goku doesnt mean that he was emo or weaker. the only time you can say he acted emo was in namek and only because frieeza CRUSHED every single hope he have and made him looks like crap.Also vegeta past sucked : his planet and species are destroyed, he have to work to the killer and be treated like crap, and evry single minute someone would laugh at the sayans. Yet he still wasnt a cry baby like naruto.

Naruto is emo because : he is unable to truly let go of his sad past(every single time he remenber how miserable he was etc etc), he cry every time someone say a dark history, he cry because of sasuke, cry because he isnt strong, actd depressed at every setback , etc etc



> You might call Sasuke emo and I'm not too fond of Sasuke myself, but I give him credit where its due. At lesat, he's been making a lot of progress in the manga, whereas Vegeta was stuck running in circles.


 
I hope you realize that Vegeta did a lot of progress during his saga(sayan and freeza), before he died he almost managed to get his desire but failed (to let the main character act-after all in DB the main character isnt him and he shouldnt have special privilegies like sasuke).In the android saga he managed to turn into a super sayan and was weaker only to goku(and gohan-but gohan is a special case ) , in the cell games he really turned stronger than the current form of cell (he never thought that the form of the perfect cell would be so strong) and was show to be wiser than trunks in the use of his power; Bull saga the focus was in the new generation and he didnt have time to shine(but is almost certain that even goku couldnt have attained SSJ3 if alive -so we cant blame him for this).

 So nope he not running in circles, usually when he sets a objetive he manages (turning super sayan-check, becoming SSJ2-check!-surpass second form of cell -check) but he fails in the parts that let the main character shines(defeat freeza-denied!, defeat cell-denied, defeat buu-denied, surpass the main character-denied). Toryama isnt like kishimoto ^^



> I might also add thats its a bit hard to take dying seriously in DBZ when people are readily resurrected. Naruto generally avoids this problem (with the exception of Gaara). But whatever, its the "cool" thing to diss Naruto nowadays in these forums.



 Dragon ball isnt only DBZ, and people arent easealy ressurect every single time they die. even in dragon ball Z this isnt true, look at frieza saga - a great quest to ressurect friends, also  trunks came back from the future because he couldnt let goku die. death is a very serious matter in the midle of the plots and can be solved after the incident is resolved but most of the time the cast dont have the option of ressurect a warrior in the midle of the action.

 Besides we are talking about naruto and goku not the series. Naruto is a great series and have lots of cool points but the main character is just a ?? ``. Most of the time people think about naruto(serie) and think sasuke (or -itachi, jiraya, orochimaru, pein, madara, etc) not the main character. if you take dragon ball its hard (impossible I could say) to not remenber goku  first(somethimes togheter whith vegeta if you only cares about DBZ) and then to think about others great characters-like bulma , kame sennin, lunch, frieeza, gynniy troop, etc.

 Naruto (at the moment) doesnt come close to goku-either in history, strenght, development, funny factor, inteliggence, tatics and importance in the series.


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## Aldric (Jan 6, 2008)

lmao at people thinking Sasuke when they think about what's good in Naruto.

Anyway Goku is a pretty bland main character but at least he's not a constant failure and disappointment like Naruto is since part 2 began so I'll have to give the edge to Goku.


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## Yagami1211 (Jan 6, 2008)

Naruto >>>>>> Goku.
I like better Kid Goku than the Adult one, Kid Goku is a child therefore is dumb. Adult Goku is as dumb as the kid one.
I'm not into the badass super strong type main character anymore. Naruto is far more interesting than Goku, leagues above.
Goku only gets stronger, just haves one chapter of development ( Aka Frieza and SSJ ).
After that he doesn't evolve at all, he just gets stronger.
Naruto in the opposite must go all through Hard Work to achieve anything he's way more "human" than Goku who just magically goes to places where he can train, He doesn't seems to be emotionally affected by anything ( Except Krillin's death ).
Kishimoto polished his main character far better than Toriyama ( then again, those were different times, people haves differents tastes ). The manga that brought up emotions to a whole new level during the old time was Saint Seiya.


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## Yagami1211 (Jan 6, 2008)

> Son Goku didn't took his rivalry with Vegeta as serious as Naruto did with Sasuke? Are you kidding? Goku begged Krillin to let Vegeta live to fight him one more time, that's not taking it seriously, correct? Just because Vegeta didn't go emo and Son Goku didn't become a Vegeta'tard doesn't mean that the rivalry wasn't taken seriously, just means that Vegeta wasn't a whiny little bitch and that Goku used his spare time to practice instead of pursuing the love of his love, like Naruto's doing.
> It was actually taken so seriously that if lasted until Dragon Ball stopped being written.



I couldn't stop myself from quoting this, this is just why Goku fails so hard as a main character.
Goku and Naruto didn't like the same thing as child. Goku was living quite the nice life with Gohan, and Naruto was the outcast of the village, everyone was picking on him. The 1st one to take contact with him was Sasuke, until he got into Team 7. Sasuke was kinda like what Gohan was for Goku, his only family. Now let's say Gohan didn't died and Goku could do something for him not to die, he would do it, sure. Just like Naruto.

I kinda like the guy who said Goku didn't pursued Vegeta like Naruto does. When Vegeta does Majin, Goku spend his time fighting him and telling him he did the wrong choice, just like Naruto. The thing is Vegeta was faking, not Sasuke. If Vegeta wasn't faking and did returned to his old self, this would have been a whole different story.

Oh and for all those reasons, Naruto feels real, not Goku.


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## mystictrunks (Jan 6, 2008)

About Goku and Chi-Chi: Has anyone here ever been in a long term relationship? You people act like you have to want to be around/think about someone 24/7 if you're in a relationship with them.

Oh yea Goku only lived with Gohan(Grandpa) for 5 years.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 6, 2008)

About goku as a family man

*Spoiler*: __ 



Lol goku repeatedly left chichi to go on training missions, he was an epic failure as a dad. 

1. he left her for raditz
2. left her for namek
3. left her for cell
4. left her for training is uub(which he really didnt have to do anyway but did cause he didnt care)

and if gt were canon he apparently left her for 10 years afterward then left for good at the end...i'd say a solid 4-5 years is what they had all together. Nice going goku -thumbs up-   

To me vegeta's way smarter then goku, he actually lived with his family even with wanting to beat goku. 




About goku in general

goku isnt a bad character at all, but to me he never matured into a grown human being from a kid like how kishi shows naruto slowly is, to me that's way more intresting then just more of the same.

And don't bring up deaths and how goku reacted to them cause that's not growing up or maturing at all, he would have acted the same way when he was a kid.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 6, 2008)

> And don't bring up deaths and how goku reacted to them cause that's not growing up or maturing at all, he would have acted the same way when he was a kid.



That is apart of him growing up and maturing whether you want to accept it or not.

You talk about Goku never growing up or maturing, look at Naruto. His character has degraded since the Sasuke Retrieval arc. He's now a constantly failing crybaby and a Sasuke fanboy.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 6, 2008)

Seto, i respect you, but you've got naruto's character all wrong and are severely blowing things out of proportion. He wants to get his brother back. That's all there is to it. 

Being a "whiny sasuke fanboy" is just hate for the character and his ambition, and "failing crybaby" is false, as he's never failed at doing anything he's set his mind to except getting back sasuke and saving gaara(which he could not possibly have done anyway).

So yea, what i'm saying is your statments about the character are severely overblown, and its not very accurate at all.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 6, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> Seto, i respect you, but you've got naruto's character all wrong and are severely blowing things out of proportion. He wants to get his brother back. That's all there is to it.
> 
> Being a "whiny sasuke fanboy" is just hate for the character and his ambition, and "failing crybaby" is false, as he's never failed at doing anything he's set his mind to except getting back sasuke and saving gaara(which he could not possibly have done anyway).
> 
> So yea, what i'm saying is your statments about the character are severely overblown, and its not very accurate at all.



Naruto has been written to the point where it's like he's become unhealthily obsessed with tracking Sasuke down. It's almost like he's in denial about the whole thing, like for example, when news of Orochimaru's death reached the village, he still couldn't understand why Sasuke wasn't coming back. What's more with that it seems he expects all the bad to go away if he brings Sasuke back, forgetting the boy is a felon and a traitor. 

For a main character, and a title character, I feel he does fail. I'm not expecting him to be another Sasuke, but I definitely expected more than I got. I feel Kishi could've done a much better job than he did with Naruto.


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## Yamato-takeru (Jan 6, 2008)

Inuhanyou spits the truth.


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## Shikashi (Jan 6, 2008)

Goddamn this is gonna take a while.



hcheng02 said:


> You are vastly oversimplifying Naruto's KB tactics, as he has used them in very sophisticated ways. He shows a wide variety of KB usage. Some examples include:
> 1. His combined henge and KB feint with Sasuke to free Kakashi from Zabuza.
> 2. His combination henge and KB to surprise the Rain ninjas in the Chuunin Exam.
> 3. His KB and henge to capture Akamaru during his fight with Kiba.
> ...


What mecketh said.




hcheng02 said:


> Maybe its just me, but I liked the quieter moments when Naruto wrestles with his doubts and insecurities. An example of that would be right before his match-up with Neji. Everyone has those kinds of moments of quiet reflection, and Naruto doing something like that humanizes him. Of course, anti-Narutards just write off any thinking of feelings and mental states as emo faggotry.


Hmm, okay. I don't remember calling him emo or ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) for those reasons... actually, I don't remember calling him ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) at all, maybe I did though.

(Mind you, ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) isn't really an insult. He's a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) because it looks like he's into dudes.)





hcheng02 said:


> So in your mind sex = character development? That explains a lot.
> 
> I don't see how Goku's and Chi Chi's relationship is better developed than Naruto's and Sakura's. Sakura went from open disdain to grudging acceptance to open admiration and slight feelings of romance for Naruto after spending lots of time with him. Naruto has romantic feelings for Sakura but also holds them back because he thinks Sakura loves Sasuke. What the hell kind of development did Goku and Chi Chi have? Goku made a promise to marry her as a child when he was too young to understand the concept. They don't meet again in ages, and then Chi Chi basically pops back and tells Goku to marry her. Goku does too keep his word, and not out of any feelings at all.


Now I never said it by those weirds, did I? In this case sex and children = development in a relationship with a *Woman*, yes, most definitely. Son Goku's relationship with Chi-Chi is more developed because they have children, that's what I implied, because they have children they must have had sex.
Their relation is far more developed than Naruto's with Sakura. Don't bullshit me on this one.

And what mecketh said works too.




hcheng02 said:


> Vegeta wasn't a whiny emo bitch? Are we reading talking about the same Vegeta here? The guy from DBZ? Because I lost count of the times he would whine about how he, the great prince of the Saiyins, was inferior to the "low class soldier" Goku. Vegeta got the living shit beat out of him every arc, usually multiple times in fact. Not to mention the fact that usually he had no relevant victories. Then he'd scream about how much weaker he was then Goku, who never stopped outclassing him. From getting 10 times stronger then him from 1 day in the time chamber despite Vegeta going there twice, to purposefully holding back SSJ3 after Vegeta sold out all his friends and family, to ruining the Earth's chances for victory over Cell by letting him live due to his own stupidity and arrogance (which would of avoided a lot of hardship later on). To paraphrase another poster, Vegeta was alright during the early arcs, but after that he was a goddamn joke.



You're confusing arrongance and pride with bitchnyness/emo. Not the same, Frieza killed Vegeta's family... Hell, he killed his countrymen and the guy still kept his grip. Yes, he was cold-hearted as Hell, but he didn't bitch about his loss 24/7, he waited for his moment to kick Frieza's ass, when he couldn't, he let Son Goku do it for him. Can you imagine if Naruto did the same for Sasuke? The kid would grow even more depressed and bitchy than he already is.



hcheng02 said:


> You might call Sasuke emo and I'm not too fond of Sasuke myself, but I give him credit where its due. At least, he's been making a lot of progress in the manga, whereas Vegeta was stuck running in circles.


You mean, stuck in his rivalry with Son Goku? Yes, I guess so, but he did do other stuff. He did kick Cell's ass (before he got his ass kicked), he did help out with Buu (if it wasn't for his intervention there wouldn't have been a victory), etc., etc.,.



hcheng02 said:


> I might also add thats its a bit hard to take dying seriously in DBZ when people are readily resurrected. Naruto generally avoids this problem (with the exception of Gaara). But whatever, its the "cool" thing to diss Naruto nowadays in these forums.


It's cool because it started sucking, Kishimoto is butchering his main character. That's like Tite butchering Ichigo, Masashi butchering the guy from 666 Satan or Watanabe butchering Spike.


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## mystictrunks (Jan 6, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> About goku as a family man
> Lol goku repeatedly left chichi to go on training missions, he was an epic failure as a dad.
> 
> 1. he left her for raditz


You mean rescued Gohan while he was out having some father and son bonding?



> 2. left her for namek


You mean went to help out Gohan and his best friend?



> 3. left her for cell


You mean went to save the world?

If a man is in the army and gets deployed does that make him a bad famoly man?



> 4. left her for training is uub(which he really didnt have to do anyway but did cause he didnt care)


No one knows how long he left for.



> i'd say a solid 4-5 years is what they had all together. Nice going goku -thumbs up-


5 Years(Gohan was 4 at the start) + 3 from cell training + what 7 or 10 until the last tourny where Goku was alive. That's 15-18 years.



> To me vegeta's way smarter then goku, he actually lived with his family even with wanting to beat goku.


Good thing you don't need to live with someone to be a family.


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## Ork (Jan 6, 2008)

TWF said:


> Goku was a pretty happy guy even after having his arms and legs broken.



This is pretty much the reason I prefer Naruto over Goku. I mean... *DUH* FFS.


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## Aokiji (Jan 6, 2008)

Vegeta isn't emo. Being pissed that you are weaker than a lowclass soldier, when you are a prince is a matter of pride. He wasn't really whining around like Sasuke.


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## Sasaki Kojirō (Jan 6, 2008)

Yeah because upholding the tradition of the strongest clan in your country as the lone survivor isn't a matter of pride.

As for the topic, I don't really know.  They both have their moments...I like Naruto's story a lot better than Dragonball's though.


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## dodgekfc (Jan 6, 2008)

naruto is a way better main character then goku just cause he had no family no friends its gotta be hard to live life like that


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## Shikashi (Jan 6, 2008)

dodgekfc said:


> naruto is a way better main character then goku just cause he had no family no friends its gotta be hard to live life like that



Son Goku lived in the woods most of his youth, he was alone after Gohan died. I don't see how one is superior to the other, their background is pretty much the same. He found Bulma, whoa, wait a sec., Naruto found Iruka, Kakashi, Sasuke, Sandaime and Sakura...


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## ArAshI-sensei (Jan 6, 2008)

This is not a easy question.

But I think I like Naruto better, he stood up against all odds (a whole village of people hating him, being the host to a demon lord etc..)

And the Naruto story line is a whole lot deeper than dragonball in my opinion.


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2008)

Absence said:


> This is pretty much the reason I prefer Naruto over Goku. I mean... *DUH* FFS.



What are you talking about? Goku doesn't hold grudges, even when he has to deal with someone like Freeza killing two of his friends.


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## Zephos (Jan 6, 2008)

Regardless of Naruto's "OOH SO HARD ALIENATION", Goku has had to shoulder the fate of earth on his shouders multiple times.
So I mean, there really no discussion whose had a heavier burden in thier lives.
Goku rapestomps Naruto.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 6, 2008)

eh, we're talking about in terms of character here not "OMG powerlevels!" or how many random aliens or robots comes to earth out of nowhere


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## The Fireball Kid (Jan 6, 2008)

> But I think I like Naruto better, he stood up against all odds (a whole village of people hating him, being the host to a demon lord etc..)



Goku fought an enemy who broke both of his legs, his arms and killed almost all of his friends, and still let him live.



> And the Naruto story line is a whole lot deeper than dragonball in my opinion.



Oh, yeah, a bunch of sob story characters with the personalities of a bag of crap.


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## Aldric (Jan 6, 2008)

Seriously I'll never understand Naruto fans harping about how "deep" and "complex" the story and characters are in that manga.

It's one of the most shallow, run of the mill shonen I've ever read.


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## tgre (Jan 6, 2008)

Comparing the most epic character in Japanese anime to an orange haired runt is an insult to Goku's memory.


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## Zephos (Jan 7, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> eh, we're talking about in terms of character here not "OMG powerlevels!" or how many random aliens or robots comes to earth out of nowhere



Thats great, now what does that have to do with my post?


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 7, 2008)

Zephos said:


> Thats great, now what does that have to do with my post?



you said "goku has protected earth from blahblahblah epic scale of evil aliens" and i wondered what that had to do with his character(personality, emotional growth, maturing choices) in general..

Cause as far as i know, goku never made a decision in life that showed he was growing up more emotionally, as he has always done the same thing in situations that he would have done as a kid, not very interesting IMO. 

He never once doubted himself or his choices, or even his way of life, not even once. For me, its too unrealistic and linear for me to put him above Naruto character-wise, i suppose its just me who likes good guys but ones who go through some sort of emotional trials, like allen walker, or naruto, maybe vash..

So yea that's my opinion


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## Fang (Jan 7, 2008)

Err, yes he has. Quite often. Goku made a decision of signifigant importance when he let Piccolo Daimou's son live after beating, after being nuked and having his arms and legs broken and nearly killed by said guy.

He has also let himself die twice to protect the Earth, letting Piccolo hit him with his new technique to take Raditz with him, getting killed by Semi-Perfect Cell's suicide technique on King Kaio's World without a second thought, ect...


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 7, 2008)

TWF said:


> Err, yes he has. Quite often. Goku made a decision of signifigant importance when he let Piccolo Daimou's son live after beating, after being nuked and having his arms and legs broken and nearly killed by said guy.
> 
> He has also let himself die twice to protect the Earth, letting Piccolo hit him with his new technique to take Raditz with him, getting killed by Semi-Perfect Cell's suicide technique on King Kaio's World without a second thought, ect...



*Your not getting my point, these things you said do not indicate what i'm saying.*

He would have done the same things you said when he was a kid, he never fucking changes. He's always been good like that,  those are not examples to show mature growth and/or adulthood. Infact i don't think akira even addressed adulthood for anybody else except gohan, which is why he's my favorite character. Taking on his father's role to protect the world was my favorite subplot, too bad he ruined it by having goku "save the day" once again when gohan got owned.


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## Shikashi (Jan 7, 2008)

tiGer said:


> Comparing the most epic character in Japanese anime to an orange haired runt is an insult to Goku's memory.


I second this notion.


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## Fang (Jan 7, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> *Your not getting my point, these things you said do not indicate what i'm saying.*
> 
> He would have done the same things you said when he was a kid, he never fucking changes. He's always been good like that,  those are not examples to show mature growth and/or adulthood. Infact i don't think akira even addressed adulthood for anybody else except gohan, which is why he's my favorite character. Taking on his father's role to protect the world was my favorite subplot, too bad he ruined it by having goku "save the day" once again when gohan got owned.



No, quite wrong again it seems you are. Who defeated Vegeta? Gohan. Who could've killed Vegeta? Kurrin. Who killed and ended the threat of Super Perfect Cell? Gohan. With Vegeta's help of course. Who defeated Buu? The people of the Earth through the Genkai Dama.

Who planned and figured the way to defeat Raditz? Piccolo. Goku isn't always saving the day, he simply inspires people to do what's right. Goku has also be angry and enraged, or did you forget why he transformed into Super Saiyan and sadistically beated down on Freeza?


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 7, 2008)

TWF said:


> No, quite wrong again it seems you are. Who defeated Vegeta? Gohan. Who could've killed Vegeta? Kurrin. Who killed and ended the threat of Super Perfect Cell? Gohan. With Vegeta's help of course. Who defeated Buu? The people of the Earth through the Genkai Dama.
> 
> Who planned and figured the way to defeat Raditz? Piccolo. Goku isn't always saving the day, he simply inspires people to do what's right. Goku has also be angry and enraged, or did you forget why he transformed into Super Saiyan and sadistically beated down on Freeza?



Eh...does ANY of that have to do with goku's character? Really he got angry and pissed when tamborine killed krillin too in DB, as i said all those things are the same thing as he would have done when he was an adult or a kid, there's nothing diffrent indicating he has grown up or become a more mature individual which i said i liked more about naruto, so yea.


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## Fang (Jan 7, 2008)

Because Goku was never always saving the day in Part II and you claimed he was. That was the first part of your silly claim about Goku's history in Dragonball. Secondly, where was happy go lucky Goku when Kurrin was killed? Or fighting Piccolo Daimou? Or Mercenary Tao?

It would help if you actually read the manga.


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## Sylar (Jan 7, 2008)

What maturing has Naruto done? He was a loser with an attitude who won his fights through some incredible PIS and CIS (save the Zabuza fight which was his only shining moment) in Part 1. In Part 2 he's an emo with stalker tendencies who won his fight (note the singular) through some of the worst PIS I've ever seen (and yet NOT the worst in Part 2 sadly enough). What great development does Naruto have exactly?


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 7, 2008)

Naruto went from an idiot loser who was a weakling everybody hated and who was annoying himself, to a more quiet, more competent ninja who thinks on his feet in a fight and has a number of techniques under his belt..but i wasnt talking about techniqes or powerlevels or whatever, i was talking about naruto's CHARACTER. Which goku never showed that he grew out of as a child, and to me, that isn't very interesting.

If you dudez wanna debate me on what i think or like more go right ahead and do it by yourselves, i can't sit here and argue with you about being a DBZ-tard who won't even listen to someone else's opinion on a matter.


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## Fang (Jan 7, 2008)

What number of techniques? Kage Bunshin? Taijuu Kage Bunshin which is the same thing except moar Kage Bunshins. Henge? Used it once in Part I in Wave Country. Rasengan? Odama Rasengan? Fuuton Rasengan? Fuuton Rasengan Shuriken?

That's all he has besides the power ups he recieves daily from the Kyuubi. His personality has complety regressed in Part II to being depressed and sad because of Sasuke.


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## Sylar (Jan 7, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> Naruto went from an idiot loser who was a weakling everybody hated and who was annoying himself, to a more quiet, more competent ninja who thinks on his feet in a fight and has a number of techniques under his belt..but i wasnt talking about techniqes or powerlevels or whatever, i was talking about naruto's CHARACTER. Which goku never showed that he grew out of as a child, and to me, that isn't very interesting.
> 
> If you dudez wanna debate me on what i think or like more go right ahead and do it by yourselves, i can't sit here and argue with you about being a DBZ-tard who won't even listen to someone else's opinion on a matter.



Competant? Any 15 year old could of seen through Naruto's 'strategy' against Kakuzu yet apparently a 100 year old expert ninja didn't see it coming. Bull. All he does is whine about 'Sasuke this and Sasuke that and OMG don't you dare insult Sasuke! You're not as hot as Sasuke! You better not insult him even if he did betray his home village to the guy who invaded the village and killed its leader! We're still BFF even if he did almost kill me!' And he has three techniques. THREE. What an amazing variation....


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## Agmaster (Jan 7, 2008)

So you hate Goku because he started out great?


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## KazeYama (Jan 7, 2008)

Goku is the better main character by far. I would be amazed if in 20 years anyone still remembers Naruto. Goku was the headliner for the most influential and popular manga/anime of all time. He has the personality and positive attitude that makes him much more likable than Naruto in my opinion.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 7, 2008)

Agmaster said:


> So you hate Goku because he started out great?



I don't HATE goku at all, he was my hero when i was a kid like i said way back when i made my first post in this thread. I merely said naruto's character and emotional growth as the series is progessing was more intresting to me then goku's and people jumped on it.


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## Sylar (Jan 7, 2008)

Inuhanyou said:


> I don't HATE goku at all, he was my hero when i was a kid like i said way back when i made my first post in this thread. I merely said naruto's character and emotional growth as the series is progessing was more intresting to me then goku's and people jumped on it.



Seriously what growth does Naruto have? Did you read the series backward or something?


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## Fang (Jan 7, 2008)

Naruto's personality has completely regressed in Part II. He's no longer arrogant or cocky or even happy, more prone to be depressed, easily saddened whenver Sasuke's name is mentioned, ect.

Not too mention all of his fights in Part II are more or less PIS.

As for Son Goku....


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## mecketh (Jan 7, 2008)

Hum frankly Inuhanyou I can understand what you say about goku being always the happy guy. This was the characteristic that definded the character to me, he could always recover from bad things and smyle at the end.

 But this is consistence of character (not lack of development), Goku evolved mentally:compare his atitude from the time he meet bulma , after the first time skip,the batle against cell and the end of saga.the basic thing that define the character (happy atitude) was there but when a kid he was truly ingenuos, after the time skip he was more tatical minded and serious, his decision to stay dead after the cell batle showed (while a litle cold to his family and friends) that he though about the consequences and events of his life , etc etc. You can say that goku was beting the destiny of earth when he not killed fat buu , but his reasoning was sound(the dead really have the right to interfire whith the living world?), if you think that kid goku would be able to think in this way you are a litle mystaken.honestly mostly of your answers seens to come from ewatching dbz when goku character and outlook is almost complete.

 Naruto was developed (better if we say changed) his basic outlook in life, but the change wasnt complete. The fact that he cry and become obssessed whith the past doesnt mean he is mature, he turns more mature when he shows a abilit to think about his actions and the consequences of his actions.sakura is as much comtemplative than naruto but is one character that we can say that evolved and is a lot more mature. If you read one piece a good comparassion is looking at usoop and luffy at the eness lobby saga: naruto is just like usoop unable to let go to the point of hurting hinself in the process, Luffy is more mature (we know he feels the same than usoop but he have to think about the others and his dutty of captain).

 oh and one thing about number of techniques: in dragon ball (like many shonens) number of techniques isnt parallel to strengh and batle capacity(mostly of the saga is focused in hand to hand combat whith techniques put here and there for good measure) , naruto comes from a universe when the techiniques are the focus and many characters think that number of techniques is a good parallel to strengh.the fact that naruto is subpar in this aspect after the time skip can truly be view as a lack of capacibility of the character.


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## The Fireball Kid (Jan 7, 2008)

And Goku doesn't whine all of the time as well, and he doesn't trash talk. He's just straight to the point.


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## Fang (Jan 9, 2008)

Goku was calling Cell a dumb-ass FYI, when Perfect Cell thought he killed Gohan by blasting him into that cliff.


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## Quantum (Jan 9, 2008)

Son Goku Is the Men

Naruto tries way to hard


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## Dark Evangel (Jan 12, 2008)

There should be a poll in this thread to see how Goku wins.


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## Gold_guardian (Jan 12, 2008)

Battle strenght is irrelivent to what makes really makes a character good or bad.

As a writer if you asked me who was a better character I would hands down pick Naruto over Goku becuse he had spades more depth.

While both Naruto and Goku both the sterotypcial shonen hero who's somewhat dumb about things yet being brillant about either nither the biggest diffrence between them is their emotional range and how easy it is to relate to them.

While at first glace they might both seem happy go lucky for Goku that is true but for Naruto that is most of the time nothing more then a mask he puts on for the public, A coping mechnisum for dealing with his pain. 

Another big difference is that Naruto an underdog most of the time where as Goku is almost never not. This makes Naruto more huminaized as he is less perfect, more prone to make mistakes and fail then Goku is and it speak volumes that he has the strenght to admit to these mistakes and failers and work to overcome them something Goku rarely had to do.

Naruto also lives in a more grey world where thing's aren't so black and white as they typically where in Dragonball and that has lead to many moral qundrys and symbolisum like the mirror between him and Gaara that gives him even more depth.

It also should be remembered that Naruto is a teenager, you can't expect him to act as mature as an adult all the time. This also shows how great a character he can be becuse he can be dead serious and then silly the next momement when the time is right.

Character wise Naruto is like a leaf that is slowly growing into a great tree where as Goku is more like a shurb that almost never grew at all.


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## Fang (Jan 12, 2008)

Goku was the under-dog against General Blue, Mercenary Tao, Muten Roshi, Tien, Piccolo Daimou, Ma Junior, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, Perfect Cell, and Kid Buu as well as Super Buu.

How exactly is he also lacking in depth? Because he isn't depressive?


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## PradaBrada (Jan 12, 2008)

Goku           .


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## Fang (Jan 12, 2008)

That's Son Goku.


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## PradaBrada (Jan 12, 2008)

dub DBZ > original
filler made them stronger


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## Fang (Jan 12, 2008)

Brolly and Buu are galaxy buster, Cell blows up Solar Systems, lava doesn't hurt Goku and Mr.Satan punches buses.


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## PradaBrada (Jan 12, 2008)

don't forget Raditz is FTL


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## Fang (Jan 12, 2008)

All of them are.


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## Dark Evangel (Jan 12, 2008)

Gold_guardian said:


> Character wise Naruto is like a leaf that is slowly growing into a great tree.


Naruto is more like an egg that is starting to rot. Seriously his personality is boring as hell especially now.


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## megi~♥ (Jan 12, 2008)

naruto all the way


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## Aldric (Jan 12, 2008)

Gold_guardian said:


> Character wise Naruto is like a leaf that is slowly growing into a great tree



More like a leaf that slowly decayed and turned into compost.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 12, 2008)

> How exactly is he also lacking in depth? Because he isn't depressive?



You just don't understand! Feel my teenage angst! SASUKE!!!


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## mystictrunks (Jan 12, 2008)

Gold_guardian said:


> Character wise Naruto is like a leaf that is slowly growing into a great tree where as Goku is more like a shurb that almost never grew at all.



Except that's not how tree's work.

Leaf =/= seed


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## MdB (Jan 12, 2008)

Gold_guardian said:


> Character wise Naruto is like a leaf that is slowly growing into a great tree where as Goku is more like a shurb that almost never grew at all.



So.... You'd call having a massive hard-on for a stereotype incarnate as ''development''?

Well, I dont, I think it's shit.


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## Zephos (Jan 12, 2008)

> While at first glace they might both seem happy go lucky for Goku that is true but for Naruto that is most of the time nothing more then a mask he puts on for the public, A coping mechnisum for dealing with his pain.



Wrong. He just acts out to get attention. Thats all your talking about. Depth/complexity =/= quality.
Matrix Revolutions isn't better than Ordinary People just because it uses hodepodged symbolism left and right.



> Another big difference is that Naruto an underdog most of the time where as Goku is almost never not. This makes Naruto more huminaized as he is less perfect, more prone to make mistakes and fail then Goku is and it speak volumes that he has the strenght to admit to these mistakes and failers and work to overcome them something Goku rarely had to do.



Goku was underdog against..
Jackie Chun, Taopipi, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimoh, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, Super Boo, Kid Boo.
Virtually most of his fights. Goku has had to overcom efar worse underdog moments than Naruto. He sacrificed his life to try and fix his mistake of letting SS2 Gohan fight Cell.



> Naruto also lives in a more grey world where thing's aren't so black and white as they typically where in Dragonball and that has lead to many moral qundrys and symbolisum like the mirror between him and Gaara that gives him even more depth.



Lets look at half the main cast of DB/Z shall we?
Oolong? One time antagonist.
Kuririn? One time antagonist.
Gyu-Mao? One time antagonist.
Yamcha nd Puar? One time antagonist.
Lunch? One time half antagonist.
Tenshinhan and Chaozu? One time antagonist.
Piccolo Jr.? One time antagonist.
Yajerobe? One time antagonist.
Vegeta? One time antagonist.
Android 18? One time antagonist.
Fat Boo? One time antagonist.

What were you saying about gray areas?




> It also should be remembered that Naruto is a teenager, you can't expect him to act as mature as an adult all the time. This also shows how great a character he can be becuse he can be dead serious and then silly the next momement when the time is right.



lol.
You havn't read original Dragonball at all have you.



> Character wise Naruto is like a leaf that is slowly growing into a great tree where as Goku is more like a shurb that almost never grew at all.



Naruto's character is a vapid Sasuke chasing shell. Its degraded.


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## AbnormallyNormal (Jan 12, 2008)

i think a good way to see which is better is by how much they change and grow psychologically over the coruse of the story. naruto wins, since goku basically stays the same throughout


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## Tash (Jan 12, 2008)

This thread made me lol. Anyway Son Goku, due to less overall annoying and emo/angst scenes in his manga.


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## ~Shin~ (Jan 12, 2008)

Did someone just say Naruto has symbolism? 

Good god.....


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## Ulfgar (Jan 12, 2008)

~Shin~ said:


> Did someone just say Naruto has symbolism?
> 
> Good god.....



Jesus Christ. .



Seto Kaiba said:


> You just don't understand! Feel my teenage angst! SASUKE!!!



:rofl


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## The Fireball Kid (Jan 12, 2008)

Naruto is also an idiot. Seriously, he literally cannot seem to accept the fact that Sasuke's an asshole who left just so he could kill his gay brother.


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## Gold_guardian (Jan 12, 2008)

Cell said:


> Naruto is also an idiot. Seriously, he literally cannot seem to accept the fact that Sasuke's an asshole who left just so he could kill his gay brother.



Man you are completey missing the entire point behind the story the manga is trying to tell.

Naruto is a story about bonds. Think about it how far would you go for a close memeber of your family be it a parent or a sibling! 

Sasuke and Naruto may not share the same blood, but Sasuke is the closest thing to a brother that Naruto has which Naruto has outright said.

I don't know about you but if came down to doing something to save my a member of my family I'd be willing to do almost anything for them. Someone who didn't have a family to start with and got one later would go even further to the depths of hell and back if need be becuse they know the pain of not having a family and wouldn't want to go back to that lonelyness.

Naruto not giving up on Sasuke and trying to save him despite Sasuke being a Jerk dosn't make him stupid, it makes him HUMAN.


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## Zephos (Jan 12, 2008)

Gold_guardian said:


> Man you are completey missing the entire point behind the story the manga is trying to tell.
> 
> Naruto is a story about bonds. Think about it how far would you go for a close memeber of your family be it a parent or a sibling!
> 
> ...



Funny, I thought the story was about boy overcoming adversity to rise to the top of his field.
I guess it became a Yaoi fanfic somewhere along the way?


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## Sylar (Jan 12, 2008)

Zephos said:


> Funny, I thought the story was about boy overcoming adversity to rise to the top of his field.
> I guess it became a Yaoi fanfic somewhere along the way?







> Naruto not giving up on Sasuke and trying to save him despite Sasuke being a Jerk dosn't make him stupid, it makes him HUMAN.



No it makes him retarded...

Read 20th Century Boys and Monster to learn what it REALLY means to have a human protagonist.


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## Micku (Jan 13, 2008)

I consider Naruto being a better main character than Goku.

Even though Naruto is the main character, he is truely protray as the underdog of his story. There are stories that done that before, but there are times when Naruto does not seem like the main character of his own series. When Naruto finally does something that is proves he is strong, it's really pleasant thing to see. 

Goku is the type of person that you could look up to. Ever since the beginning of the series, you always knew Goku would come out on top no matter who it was. There are times when he gets beat up, of course, but I don't think he ever truely connect with the readers. He is a role model, but Naruto could connect with people. Naruto cried, act stupid (most of the time), and overcame the odds. And whenever Naruto overcome the odds, it's a lot more emotional than Goku does it. 

Believe it.


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## Fang (Jan 13, 2008)

Goku established a relationship with Bulma, Roshi, Ma Junior, Tien, Kurrin, Lunch, hell even Cell to an extent can be aruged because of their fight.

I am seriously puzzled at that claim.


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## Aldric (Jan 13, 2008)

Sylar said:


> No it makes him retarded...
> 
> Read 20th Century Boys and Monster to learn what it REALLY means to have a human protagonist.



Or Berserk, or Battle Angel Alita etc etc.

Of course those are all seinen, but even in shonen you have far better characterized protagonists then Naruto. Like Killua from HxH for ex. 

Also I find it highly amusing how in some people minds, "human" is basically synonymous of "pathetic". YEAH HE SUCKS SHIT K WELL IT MAKES HIM HUMAN!!! No, it just makes him pathetic. 

There's other ways to make a character look human then to portray him as an utter failure, but of course it needs the ability to write. This is just a lazy cop out.


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## King Bookah (Jan 13, 2008)

Naruto is the bestest eva. He'd kick Goku's ass any day


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jan 13, 2008)

i wouldve said naruto originally, but he threw away his dream and personality for saucegay.


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## Kisame. (Jan 13, 2008)

both are pretty bad


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## Seany (Jan 13, 2008)

Goku. He's just alot more impressive and interesting.


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## The Fireball Kid (Jan 13, 2008)

Goku saves the planet on numerous occasions. Naruto's saved it never.


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## Zephos (Jan 13, 2008)

> Goku is the type of person that you could look up to. Ever since the beginning of the series, you always knew Goku would come out on top no matter who it was.



Jackie Chun, Taopipi, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimou, Piccolo, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, the Adroids, Cell, Super Boo.



> Naruto cried,



So did Goku.



> act stupid (most of the time),



Oh wow dude.
Nice to see you read Dragonball.



> and overcame the odds.


Happends all the time in Dragonball.



> And whenever Naruto overcome the odds, it's a lot more emotional than Goku does it.



I'm pretty sure I felt rage and exasperation at him beating Kakuzu with bullshit logic.
Or is that not what you meant?


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## Stalin (Jan 13, 2008)

I like naruto better, he actually has some depth. I like goku,but he is your typical do-gooder.


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## Sylar (Jan 13, 2008)

What depth does Naruto have? 

Being emo =/= depth.


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## ~Shin~ (Jan 13, 2008)

Naruto hasn't had any depth or much of a personality since beginning of Part II....


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## The Fireball Kid (Jan 13, 2008)

When did Goku not have any depth?


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## Ema Skye (Jan 13, 2008)

Naruto is the better main character


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## The Fireball Kid (Jan 13, 2008)

I like Naruto, I think it's a fun manga. But, honestly, all Naruto does in part 2 is rush into battle stupidly (he really hasn't grown much strategy-wise), get angry and yell at some guy who's ten times stronger than him about Sasuke. It's just boring and repetetive.


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## Stalin (Jan 13, 2008)

Cell said:


> When did Goku not have any depth?



Beyond being kind-hearted and being really strong,nothing really.  He has no flaws, he's perfect, perfects characters are usually boring. You can still be strong and flaws but he has no flaws.


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## The Fireball Kid (Jan 13, 2008)

And having flaws = good character?


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## I (Jan 13, 2008)

Naruto... I hate those characters that famous for their natural born strength...


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## Hokage Naruto (Jan 13, 2008)

cHiBi_gOtH said:


> Naruto... I hate those characters that famous for their natural born strength...



But Goku was born natural strength too, as a Saiyan.  I doubt he worked so hard to be able to change his hair color blonde and black, short and long because I can name other characters that should be to do that. XD

I think Naruto wins since he isn't the strongest in the world.  He has the potential to be the strongest but Goku has always been the world's strongest.  Goku just has to beat the most villains while in Naruto.  Characters stronger then Naruto have defeated foes that were stronger then Naruto at the time of defeat. (Sorry, if this sounds confusing.)


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## Stalin (Jan 13, 2008)

Cell said:


> And having flaws = good character?



Makes him more human,that is why spider-man became popular,he had flaws so people could relate to him, he was strong, but he sometimes faced villains stronger than him so he used hit wits to defeat them


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## The Fireball Kid (Jan 13, 2008)

> I think Naruto wins since he isn't the strongest in the world. He has the potential to be the strongest but Goku has always been the world's strongest. Goku just has to beat the most villains while in Naruto. Characters stronger then Naruto have defeated foes that were stronger then Naruto at the time of defeat. (Sorry, if this sounds confusing.)



Every enemy Goku faced outclassed him by far. And Goku wasn't always stronger. Hell, Gohan's the strongest character in the end of the series.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 13, 2008)

Goku hasn't always been the strongest...Roshi was stronger than him at the start, then there was Taopaipai who was stronger than him, then there was Tien who was even with him, there was King Piccolo who was initially stronger than him, Raditz was stronger when he appeared, then Vegeta, then Frieza, and Cell, the latter whom he admitted he couldn't beat. Finally there was Super Buu and Kid Buu, who he couldn't defeat with his own power. I think I forgot a few.


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## I (Jan 13, 2008)

Hokage Naruto said:


> I think Naruto wins since he isn't the strongest in the world.  He has the potential to be the strongest but Goku has always been the world's strongest.  Goku just has to beat the most villains while in Naruto.  Characters stronger then Naruto have defeated foes that were stronger then Naruto at the time of defeat. (Sorry, if this sounds confusing.)



That's what I mean...


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## Sin (Jan 13, 2008)

Hokage Naruto said:


> But Goku was born natural strength too, as a Saiyan.  I doubt he worked so hard to be able to change his hair color blonde and black, short and long because I can name other characters that should be to do that. XD
> 
> I think Naruto wins since he isn't the strongest in the world.  He has the potential to be the strongest but Goku has always been the world's strongest.  Goku just has to beat the most villains while in Naruto.  Characters stronger then Naruto have defeated foes that were stronger then Naruto at the time of defeat. (Sorry, if this sounds confusing.)


Naruto was born with the Kyuubi. That pretty much cancels out the whole "Goku is cheaper, Naruto's strength is natural"

Also, for your "Goku's always won" argument. Cell vs. Gohan anyone? Gohan SSJ2 beat the opponent Goku couldn't beat. That's pretty much the same as Kakashi beating Zabuza.

Overall, Goku is the better main character, because he may be strong, and he may have been born with the natural abiltiy to be strong, but he understood his limits, and trained to surpass them.

Naruto just starts crying every time he meets his limits, and lets the Kyuubi take him over. A character like that isn't very apealing.


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## Aldric (Jan 13, 2008)

I always like people trying to argue Naruto is some kind of "human" everyman character who's the underdog and all that shit when he's the son of the greatest ninja ever, can tap on the power of the most powerful demon of his universe and has the entire village of Konoha including the Hokage and the strongest Genin surgically attached to his nutsack.

Some underdog.


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## Sylar (Jan 13, 2008)

Hokage Naruto said:


> But Goku was born natural strength too, as a Saiyan.  I doubt he worked so hard to be able to change his hair color blonde and black, short and long because I can name other characters that should be to do that. XD
> 
> I think Naruto wins since he isn't the strongest in the world.  He has the potential to be the strongest but Goku has always been the world's strongest.  Goku just has to beat the most villains while in Naruto.  Characters stronger then Naruto have defeated foes that were stronger then Naruto at the time of defeat. (Sorry, if this sounds confusing.)



Dude everyone and their brother kicked Goku's ass in DB... 

Jackie Chun
Tien
Tao Pai Pai
Piccolo
Cymbal
Raditz
Vegeta
Cell
Buu


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## Zephos (Jan 13, 2008)

For every "Goku wins all the time post" take a full swig of beer.


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## Sylar (Jan 13, 2008)

You wouldn't make it past the first page without dying of alchohol poisoning...


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## Baby Venus (Jan 13, 2008)

Goku i still think tht overall Naruto( as in the entire show not the character) is too young to be compaired to a classic lik DB/DBZ/DBGT


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## Micku (Jan 14, 2008)

Zephos said:


> Jackie Chun, Taopipi, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimou, Piccolo, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, the Adroids, Cell, Super Boo.



But people most of the time expect him to win or give his oppenents a tough match, but with Naruto, that don't really happen. That never happen As I recall, he truely only lost to Jackie Chun aka Master Roshi in a one on one fight. Taopipi, he lost the first time then beat him afterwards. With fight with Tenshinhan, he lost because he hit the ground first. 

Piccolo Daimou was the same way I think, he lost once and then beat him the next time they fought.

Raditz owned him though >.>

With Freeza, he eventually came out on top. 

With Cell, it changed a little bit. It shifted as Gohan as the main character.

But the thing with the Cell and most of the villians in Dragonball, they look forward to fight Goku. Goku gets the attention, but Naruto does not. Even Akatsuki doesn't really give him attention, they just want the Kyuubi. Naruto getting the main attention by the villians are a bit rare.  

Super Boo was different. 

My point is that almost all of those battles, Goku was never really the underdog like Naruto was in his battles. His friends and probably the readers expected him to win or put up a good fight (most of the times he does), but in Naruto you really have doubt whatever he'll win or not. There are times when Naruto suprises us with a win even though he seems like he shouldn't be able to win at his level. 

Bottom line is that Goku always head into battle with his friends thinking that he is going to own. He always pick up a great fight unlike Naruto. Naruto is more of a underdog and Goku is not.



> So did Goku.



Yeah, he did. I think twice, but correct me if I'm wrong. He cried when he meet his dead grandpa Gohan and he cried when kuririn died the first time. However, I don't recall him crying in Dragonball Z ever. 

Naruto cried...a few times. I don't remember all the times he cried, but I can remember the most emotional event when he cried. It was when Zabuza was neglecting his friendship with Haku, even though Haku neglect his own dreams just to make Zabuza happy.  



> Oh wow dude.
> Nice to see you read Dragonball.



If you are refering to Goku being stupid, then whatever. When I said naruto being stupid, I meant his immature. But either way, my statement was flawed because I didn't imply details *_*

My fault.



> Happends all the time in Dragonball.



No it doesn't. Goku pwned the Red Ribbon Army. Goku own'd lots of side ppl. Goku own'd lots of people. In the main fights, he end up putting a good fight, until his opponent goes to the next lvl then he will too. 




> I'm pretty sure I felt rage and exasperation at him beating Kakuzu with bullshit logic.
> Or is that not what you meant?



Naruto beating Kakuzu was bullshit for me too. 




			
				Aldric said:
			
		

> I always like people trying to argue Naruto is some kind of "human" everyman character who's the underdog and all that shit when he's the son of the greatest ninja ever, can tap on the power of the most powerful demon of his universe and has the entire village of Konoha including the Hokage and the strongest Genin surgically attached to his nutsack.
> 
> Some underdog.



He is the son of the greatest ninja, but he himself suck at the beginning compare to others. No one looks at him and expects him to own, hardly anyone.

I really won't agrue about the Kyuubi, only that he can't control it all that much. I really don't consider Goku as the underdog like Naruto is.


----------



## maStneliS (Jan 14, 2008)

Well, IMO I think Goku is, he sacrified himself a LOT of times for other people. Everytime he died he was brought back with the almighty power of dragon balls lol


----------



## mystictrunks (Jan 14, 2008)

Of course Naruto sucked at the start people, or did you forget that all three memebers of team 7 did. The reason: They were kids. 

Too The Dude Above Me:
Goku only got brought back by the Dragon Ball Once


----------



## Fang (Jan 14, 2008)

Owning fodder is pretty easy for any named character, Yura, the Jounin and Captain of Sunagakura's ANBU owned like dozens of dozens of them with a single Fuuton.

Goku was owned in almost every major fight or lost in the majority of them - General Blue, Muten Roshi, Mercenary Tao, Tien, Piccolo Daimou, he barely defeated Ma Junior. Was owned again by Raditz even with Piccolo, got beaten down by Vegeta, Freeza until Kurrin was killed and Piccolo saved his life, again conceeding to Perfect Cell because he was stronger and faster and once again with most of the forms with Buu.

Goku just doesn't suck.


----------



## Katsuragi Tsukasa (Jan 14, 2008)

Ugh, really, questions like this spawn off some of the craziest and most immature responses. Truthfully, I like them both. I don't think that you can truly compare them because they're so virtually different. I mean, let's just forget the fact that if you want to be technical, Naruto would lose to Goku in five minutes because oh gee, the power that's shown in DBZ FAR SURPASSES the power shown in the Naruto Universe. 

Naruto is an underdog, yes. And Goku was the world's strongest most of the time, yes. But in Goku's defense, it's not like he got that power from sitting on his ass, you know? Naruto has to train too, yes, but even the training that he undergoes can be compared to Goku's.

Basically, the two series are so absolutely different that they can't be compared. I don't truly think you could logically use facts to prove or say that one character is better than another. Because of that, anything that is really said is based on that individual's own preference.

Ahaha, I'm done. XDDD


----------



## Aldric (Jan 14, 2008)

Micku said:


> He is the son of the greatest ninja, but he himself suck at the beginning compare to others. No one looks at him and expects him to own, hardly anyone.
> 
> I really won't agrue about the Kyuubi, only that he can't control it all that much. I really don't consider Goku as the underdog like Naruto is.



He stopped being the underdog roughly when he splattered Neji across Konoha and the whole village cheered for him.

Then he proceeds to kick Gaara's ass, learn Rasengan in three days, become the prot?g? of two sannins and make SUPER SPESHUL UCHIHA GENIUS Sasuke throw a jealousy fit because of how strong he became.

But just because Kishimoto is a hack writer and is thoroughly unable to show on panel what other characters constantly remind us of (basically that Naruto will surpass the 4th and is strong as hell) then Naruto is the underdog?

How bout no.


----------



## MdB (Jan 14, 2008)

Micku said:


> He is the son of the greatest ninja, but he himself suck at the beginning compare to others. No one looks at him and expects him to own, hardly anyone.
> 
> I really won't agrue about the Kyuubi, only that he can't control it all that much. I really don't consider Goku as the underdog like Naruto is.



Buthe hie dient suck in the begiening, hie leanred a Jounin class juustuu in the first damn chapter, and lets not forget him summoning a friggin' boss summon and some more obvious stuff that I'm too lazy to name.

His ''winning'' powers can go as far as to defeat a S-Class Missing Nin (who fought with the first Hokage) by tricking him with a stupid Kage Bunshin trick. 

Underdog fo sho....


----------



## Zephos (Jan 14, 2008)

> But people most of the time expect him to win or give his oppenents a tough match,



So you havn't actually seen most of those figths?



> but with Naruto, that don't really happen.



Who has completely rapestomped Naruto? Orochimaru?......
And....who else?



> That never happen As I recall, he truely only lost to Jackie Chun aka Master Roshi in a one on one fight. Taopipi, he lost the first time then beat him afterwards. With fight with Tenshinhan, he lost because he hit the ground first. Piccolo Daimou was the same way I think, he lost once and then beat him the next time they fought.



And he lost whats your point. Taopipi/Daimou owned the living shit out of Goku with minimal effort, Goku beating them in a second fight is irrelevant to your point. 



> With Freeza, he eventually came out on top.



Again after being baby shook. 



> With Cell, it changed a little bit. It shifted as Gohan as the main character.



Thats the worst exscuse yet.



> But the thing with the Cell and most of the villians in Dragonball, they look forward to fight Goku. Goku gets the attention, but Naruto does not. Even Akatsuki doesn't really give him attention, they just want the Kyuubi. Naruto getting the main attention by the villians are a bit rare.



The Kyubi is Naruto, stop dancing around that fact.



> Super Boo was different.



How?



> My point is that almost all of those battles, Goku was never really the underdog like Naruto was in his battles.



My lawd boy, paying attention at all?
Should I just re-list all those matches again? 



> His friends and probably the readers expected him to win or put up a good fight (most of the times he does),



Yhea, I'm sure Yajerobe and the Budokai audience have been totally behind that "wierd little kid". Or the raeders guessing goku was going to die against Cell and Raditz.



> but in Naruto you really have doubt whatever he'll win or not.



No not really, your saying this like its the start of part 1, as opposed to the current time after the joke that was Kakuzu's defeat



> .There are times when Naruto suprises us with a win even though he seems like he shouldn't be able to win at his level.



Mostly tahst horrible writing, not a laud worthy event.



> Bottom line is that Goku always head into battle with his friends thinking that he is going to own. He always pick up a great fight unlike Naruto. Naruto is more of a underdog and Goku is not.



This is simply false. Which of the figths I listed, (add Tambourine too) was Goku being lauded and cheered by everyone with ceratinty of victory.



> Yeah, he did. I think twice, but correct me if I'm wrong. He cried when he meet his dead grandpa Gohan and he cried when kuririn died the first time. However, I don't recall him crying in Dragonball Z ever.



Dragonball and DBZ are the same thing.



> If you are refering to Goku being stupid, then whatever. When I said naruto being stupid, I meant his immature. But either way, my statement was flawed because I didn't imply details *_*



Its plain stupid. Naruto gets his bumbling idiocy from Goku in the first place.



> No it doesn't. Goku pwned the Red Ribbon Army. Goku own'd lots of side ppl. Goku own'd lots of people. In the main fights, he end up putting a good fight, until his opponent goes to the next lvl then he will too.



Nothing above matters to your point.



> Naruto beating Kakuzu was bullshit for me too.



So basically your argueing for Part 1 Naruto who is no longer currently relevant?



> He is the son of the greatest ninja, but he himself suck *at the beginning* compare to others. No one looks at him and expects him to own, hardly anyone.



Its been maybe 25 volumes, better get a new point.


----------



## fship_art (Jan 14, 2008)

Sasuke is better main chacracter.


----------



## Shikashi (Jan 14, 2008)

fship_art said:


> Sasuke is better main chacracter.


Fail troll is FAIL.


----------



## MdB (Jan 14, 2008)

fship_art said:


> Sasuke is better main chacracter.



Mental retardation is a bitch huh?


----------



## Jesus Date (Jan 14, 2008)

Dragonball rapes Naruto in every category. The problem with Naruto is that he doesn't learn from his mistakes (rushing every foe) and can't stop pursuing his lover sasuke.


----------



## Micku (Jan 15, 2008)

Zephos said:


> So you havn't actually seen most of those figths?



I recall hearing something like, "if Goku can't do it...then who can," phase a lot. Regardless of that, his friends have faith in Goku will come on on top. Especially in dragonball z. 

To answer your question, I seen those fights. 



> Who has completely rapestomped Naruto? Orochimaru?......
> And....who else?



I think you took my statement the wrong way, I said:



			
				Micku said:
			
		

> *
> But people* most of the time* expect him* to win or give his oppenents a tough match, but with Naruto, that don't really happen.



There were very few moments when people look up to Naruto and said, "I think you could beat that guy." With Goku it happened almost all the time because his friends believe in him. Goku own'd most of his fights until the main fight, but he never went in the fight as the underdog like Naruto has. 



> And he lost whats your point. Taopipi/Daimou owned the living shit out of Goku with minimal effort, Goku beating them in a second fight is irrelevant to your point.



No it's not. My point is, Goku never really come in the fight as the underdog. I think Goku surprised them with a few tricks and not giving up (don't remember all that well). Even with the second fight, I don't think he had lots of trouble fighting Taopipi after that, but Daimou was a different story I think.

In the Naruto fights, he has always been look down upon. People don't think he could do it. That's my point in my whole agruement. Goku has friends that think he could do it, and he does (most of the time). He has the skills to show off for it. No knew about Naruto and assume that he'll lose before the match even began. He skills are not fancier than other people, and it's more untamed like a wild mad dog in a civilize sociality. He suprises people in his fights because they assume that he is weak.


Even the readers don't know what he could do because his skills seem less fancy than the others. Everyone underestimate him, that's why he is the underdog and why I like him more as a main character. 



> Again after being baby shook.
> 
> 
> > Meh. I guess my agruement on that wouldn't matter because Freeza did with Kuririn is the same thing Haku did with Sasuke. Neither was expecting their opponent will get a power up.
> ...


----------



## Sin (Jan 15, 2008)

^^^ Like countless have said, more flaws =/= more human.

If you want to like him more because he's more flawed a character, go ahead. However, the whole flaws things making a character more human, and thus giving him a greater appeal, isn't true at all. There's many ways of establishing how human a character is.

To me, Goku far exceeds Naruto in that aspect.


----------



## Zephos (Jan 15, 2008)

> *I recall hearing something like, *"if Goku can't do it...then who can," phase a lot. Regardless of that, his friends have faith in Goku will come on on top. Especially in dragonball z.



Good good, 
Vague Memories of the DBZ dub: Episode 378.
Thanks for playing.



> To answer your question, I seen those fights.



How long ago and in what form?



> I think you took my statement the wrong way, I said:



Who expects Goku to win half of those fights? I'm gonna need scans for this.



> There were very few moments when people look up to Naruto and said, "I think you could beat that guy." With Goku it happened almost all the time because his friends believe in him. Goku own'd most of his fights until the main fight, but he never went in the fight as the underdog like Naruto has.



Jackie Chun, Taopipi, Tambourine, Piccolo Daimou, Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, Super Boo.

Iv'e skipped most of the below , where you endlessly insist Goku was going in with big laughs from friends thinking he will save the day iregardless which as usual is bogus.



> Even the readers don't know what he could do because his skills seem less fancy than the others. Everyone underestimate him, that's why he is the underdog and why I like him more as a main character.



We know exactly what he'll do.
1. Bunshins.
2. Ransengan.
3. Kyubi forms.



> I'm not going agrue about that. You're right when you say that Naruto gets his idiocy from Goku. But not his immaturity. But my diction was flawed, because I didn't imply details of what I meant.



Goku was incredibly immature. Did you even read the original Dragonball?



> My point is basically, Goku owns and Naruto owns less. Goku could show off his skills and villians pay attention to him while Naruto hardly gets the spotlight with his villians.



All of Naruto's foes give little compliments or turn into enraged confused animals as well.


----------



## Detonator_Fan (Jan 15, 2008)

They both suck.

But Goku is worse.


----------



## Franklin Stein (Jan 15, 2008)

lol naruto becase the series is better


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## Fang (Jan 15, 2008)

Detonator_Fan said:


> They both suck.
> 
> But Goku is worse.





~Shuffle~ said:


> lol naruto becase the series is better



Wrong statements are wrong.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jan 15, 2008)

Naruto's just kind of annoying, as well. Every fight is the same, and he always gets mad because someone says something about Sasuke, who, in reality, is a douche bag who left just so he could kill Itachi.

Fail character is fail.


----------



## Vandal Savage (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm going to have to say Goku by far. Current Naruto fails as a main character even though he had potential. Kishi's development of him or lack of it is what hurts him.


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Jan 20, 2008)

Goku.....
He was kind forgiving and everything you would think a hero/main character should be


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jan 21, 2008)

Son Goku...


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2008)

Son Goku wasn't very forgiving to Freeza after two of his friends were killed.


----------



## Dio Brando (Jan 21, 2008)

TWF said:


> Son Goku wasn't very forgiving to Freeza after two of his friends were killed.



Yes he was. Hence, mecha-freeza. :/


----------



## Cobra (Jan 21, 2008)

Naruto because he dosent take 30 episodes of talking to get to the point


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2008)

Yeah that was like six or seven chapters after realizing that Freeza was worth it.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 21, 2008)

> Naruto because he dosent take 30 episodes of talking to get to the point



Yes. Because Naruto takes 300-some odd chapters to do it. 

Naruto has to wait.


----------



## Shikashi (Jan 21, 2008)

DarkCobra said:


> Naruto because he dosent take 30 episodes of talking to get to the point


Obviously not, what's the point in keeping you waiting when he's gonna get his ass kicked? That would just be retarded story-telling.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2008)

Dragonball's anime massively made events take longer then they should've ie Cell and Goku's fight, Goku vs Freeza, Vegeta first using Final Flash.


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## Aldric (Jan 21, 2008)

Someone didn't watch the Shippuden episode that consisted of 30 minutes of Oro slowly walking towards a powering up Naruto.


----------



## Sylar (Jan 21, 2008)

Wait someone actually watches Shippuden?


----------



## Fang (Jan 21, 2008)

Hey, the Mini-Kyuubi vs Orochimaru fight was stellar animation wise.


----------



## Parallax (Jan 21, 2008)

I heard that it was, too bad I never saw it.


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## Shadow_fox (Jan 21, 2008)

Naruto, Goku is too forgiving and constantly gave his oponents chances to win.


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## Zephos (Jan 21, 2008)

Shadow_fox said:


> Naruto, Goku is too forgiving and constantly gave his oponents chances to win.



Goku has killed people, has Naruto?


----------



## Proxy (Jan 21, 2008)

Goku's SS transformation, alone, was purely epic. Naruto has yet to reach heights such as that.


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## Boocock (Jan 22, 2008)

Kid Goku was epic. Of course, he was based off the monkey boy in Journey to the West. But, later on, he was just the perfect example of a secluded country (In reality, he was from the mountains) boy coming out to the real world. Do you remember his first scenes in West City? They were hilarious. 

You could clearly see a transition in his character as Part One went on. Due to his lack of knowledge about the real world, he often was confused about certain customs. He thought wedding was a food. He would touch peoples private parts to see if they were a boy or a girl. But, he always stayed pure and honest. A good guys good guy. 

His transition fighting-wise in Dragonball was also interesting. He was a prodigy to begin with (Before we knew of his origin), but he was incredibly raw. He made several unnecessary movements, and he was not totally focused the right way in battle. These flaws were shown by Mr. Popo, and he fixed them. He went from amateur-like skill (With high power) to perfection in battle.

His character was often times forgotten at times in DBZ. He started off by giving up his life, and the series immediately switched to his polar opposite son (Gohan was amazingly soft. Remember when he ran away from incoming water)? He would show up just in time to save the world.

Against the Saiyans, four of his friends died before he showed up.
Against the Ginyu Force, he showed up just in time to save his son, Krillin, and Vegeta.
Against Freiza, Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin had been fighting for hours.
Against the Androids, Goku was bedridden for hours, and then was in the Time Chamber.

It wasn't until the Buu Saga that he finally got his chance at showing what he was truly made of in DBZ. And, it was still impressive stuff.

Character development and interaction is what drove DBZ, sort of like it is driving Bleach. There weren't a lot of emotions in the fights in DBZ, unlike in Naruto (Where you are more likely to find a fight with emotion than without it). And, Goku was behind a lot of the character development and interaction.

Vegeta's character was developed solely because of Goku (And a certain energy blast from Cell to his future son). Goku was just always one step ahead. And, at one point, his non-warrior son was as well. But, in the end, Vegeta teamed up with Goku to take Buu. The Buu Saga was successful only because of the Goku working with Vegeta scenes.

Naruto is an interesting character as well. He really doesn't have as much in common with Goku as people think. Goku lived a childhood of peace. Naruto lived a childhood of scorn for seemingly no reason (Until the truth was revealed, that is). 

Naruto had to overcome hate. And, because of that, he wants everything a lot more than Goku does. Goku just wants everything to be perfect ("Oh, I could have beaten Fat Buu. I just wanted the boys to be able to beat him!" Shut up, just save the world). Naruto just wants everything to be okay, to work out. Naruto wants Hokage. Goku doesn't have a major goal, aside from protecting everyone and having a good fight, after he wins the World Tournament.

But, in reality, every character has a few moments that people just remember. Naruto hasn't had as much time to develop those moments.

Overall, I do like Goku more. His child character was just perfect for the series.


----------



## Grimmjow (Jan 22, 2008)

goku 1000000x better than naruto. well thats just me


----------



## Shikashi (Jan 22, 2008)

Shadow_fox said:


> Naruto, Goku is too forgiving and constantly gave his oponents chances to win.



Naruto fails at killing people altogether, let alone let them live or forgive them... he seems to forgive Sasugay a lot though, oh my, the things you do when you're in love.


----------



## Yellow (Jan 22, 2008)

Vegeta>>Goku.


But anyways, Goku is the better main character.


----------



## Hadouken the Man Slayer (Jan 22, 2008)

Shikashi said:


> Naruto fails at killing people altogether, let alone let them live or forgive them... he seems to forgive Sasugay a lot though, oh my, the things you do when you're in love.



thats what makes him such a better main character. or maybe just more life like. if you were posed with the same situation as naruto would you kill someone you consider friend ? goku was just lame to me. yes he was a great fighter. but he played stupid a thousand times worse then naruto. atleast when naruto doesnt kill someone its because he cares for them. when goku did it it was just plan stupidity.


----------



## ayoz (Jan 22, 2008)

Goku, need I say more?


----------



## Shikashi (Jan 22, 2008)

Hadouken the Man Slayer said:


> thats what makes him such a better main character. or maybe just more life like. if you were posed with the same situation as naruto would you kill someone you consider friend ? goku was just lame to me. yes he was a great fighter. but he played stupid a thousand times worse then naruto. atleast when naruto doesnt kill someone its because he cares for them. when goku did it it was just plan stupidity.


LOL, such a stupid statement, especially when Goku has been proven to be more forgiving than he should be.

Goku never killed a friend, so where are you coming from? Pulling stuff out of your ass much? He's pussy enough to dislike killing his foes, why would he kill friends? Whatever. As far as like-like characters are concerned, none of them are, but if you must (or me, in this case), Goku seemed a bit more like-like since, while he was indeed a tad stupid and naive, he had trouble killing life forms, it might not seem such a struggle since he was a dumb idiot, but hey, he at least had problems dealing with the fact of killing foes. Except for Cell.

Naruto didn't seem to have a problem killing Haku (or any other character he killed, there aren't many though.), and all the dude... or girl, did was stick needles up Sasugay's tight-ass, Buu killed thousands and Goku still wanted to see him re-born as a better person or... some shit.

Bottom line, Naruto Defense Force sucks at making valid arguments.


----------



## LordTyrano? (Jan 22, 2008)

Goku by far, he had such a nice charisma and everything.



(Though Luffy pwns them both)


----------



## -18 (Jan 22, 2008)

Naruto... Cause his story is very interesting, Goku's strength is natural born, since the start of the story, he's always strong, unlike Naruto, he needs to train hard just to be stronger...


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## Shikashi (Jan 23, 2008)

Volcore said:


> Naruto... Cause his story is very interesting, Goku's strength is natural born, since the start of the story, he's always strong, unlike Naruto, he needs to train hard just to be stronger...



.... What? Goku is a low-class soldier gifted for combat, nothing else. He trained to get to that level, he wasn't born with it.


----------



## James Bond (Jan 23, 2008)

Volcore said:


> Naruto... Cause his story is very interesting, Goku's strength is natural born, since the start of the story, he's always strong, unlike Naruto, he needs to train hard just to be stronger...



Dont mean to sound rude but did you like miss the 500 episodes of Goku's training throughout the entire Z series or something? Compared to Goku, Naruto is a slacker in training.

Whos better? Well both have interesting series but so far Goku is better due to the face we havent seen much from Naruto except him getting angry and unleashing Kyuubi whereas Goku was always a calm conservitive fighter who always brought something new to fights.


----------



## Zephos (Jan 23, 2008)

Volcore said:


> Naruto... Cause his story is very interesting, Goku's strength is natural born, since the start of the story, he's always strong, unlike Naruto, he needs to train hard just to be stronger...



It never ceases to amaze me how people who clearly havn't seen a series will still talk about it.
Its the dumbest thing.


----------



## infinite (Jan 24, 2008)

Goku  is nice, but dies to often


----------



## Sylar (Jan 24, 2008)

Naruto is bad and doesn't die enough.


----------



## HyperKnuckles22 (Jan 24, 2008)

Pfft, gutts makes goku and naruto seem full of fail.


----------



## Fang (Jan 24, 2008)

Gutts, as bad-ass as he is, does not make Goku fail.


----------



## HyperKnuckles22 (Jan 24, 2008)

gutts has killed more people, and been through an unimanginable hell compared to the pain naruto goes thourgh, or goku for that matter. also unlike those two he actually got the girl!


----------



## Zephos (Jan 24, 2008)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> gutts has killed more people, and been through an unimanginable hell compared to the pain naruto goes thourgh, or goku for that matter. also unlike those two he actually got the girl!



Goku is married with two children.


How did you forget that.


----------



## Fang (Jan 24, 2008)

Goku killed the entire Red Ribbon Army.


----------



## HyperKnuckles22 (Jan 24, 2008)

> Goku is married with two children.
> 
> 
> How did you forget that.



chichi duped him into marrying her, gutts loved casca, big difference.


----------



## Fang (Jan 24, 2008)

Goku loves his friends and family, so what are you trying to prove?


----------



## HyperKnuckles22 (Jan 24, 2008)

not trying to prove anything, just saying that goku isnt the deepest most complex male lead character  of any manga, or likable for that matter. and i prefer more flawed characters, like gutts, light, and even shinji from NGE, because they dont follow the routine goku ripoffs (train, luffy, gon, etc.)


----------



## Fang (Jan 24, 2008)

No, your point makes absolutely no sense. " I don't like this character because he isn't depressive and he set the benchmark for modern Shonen Jump".

Gotcha.


----------



## Dio Brando (Jan 24, 2008)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> not trying to prove anything, just saying that goku isnt the deepest most complex male lead character  of any manga,


He's not supposed to be. 


> or likable for that matter. and i prefer more flawed characters, like gutts, light, and even shinji from NGE, because they dont follow the routine goku ripoffs (train, luffy, gon, etc.)



That's fine but thats not the point of this thread. It's not Goku's fault he has shit loads of clones. Hell Gutts has his fair share of clones as well. So I really don't get your point here.


----------



## SoulCrusader (Jan 24, 2008)

this is like a NARUTO SUCKS ass thread, btw naruto is better main character simply because he is.... o-o.... goku had his time to shine like more then a decade ago now we must lay him to rest and embrace the AWESOMENESS OF NARUTO AND HIS ANTICS so stfu and gtfo of naruto forums if u hate naruto HAHAHAHAAHH ! OVERLORD~ i am chad warden.


----------



## HyperKnuckles22 (Jan 24, 2008)

> No, your point makes absolutely no sense. " I don't like this character because he isn't depressive and he set the benchmark for modern Shonen Jump".
> 
> Gotcha.



uh, no. i was comparing him to All main characters in  any manga. try again.


----------



## Fang (Jan 24, 2008)

Which are based off Son Goku.

So what is the problem again? Gutts was based off an archtype character before him and he has a shitload of clones like Dio said. Your going to debase for that?


----------



## Dio Brando (Jan 24, 2008)

SoulCrusader said:


> this is like a NARUTO SUCKS ass thread, btw naruto is better main character simply because he is.... o-o.... goku had his time to shine like more then a decade ago now we must lay him to rest and embrace the AWESOMENESS OF NARUTO AND HIS ANTICS so stfu and gtfo of naruto forums if u hate naruto HAHAHAHAAHH ! OVERLORD~ i am chad warden.



"Because he is" is not a reason at all.

I can hate Naruto all I want. His 'antics' involve: Chasing Sasuke's ass all day and eating ramen. 
Well whoop-dee-fucking-doo.


----------



## HyperKnuckles22 (Jan 24, 2008)

> Which are based off Son Goku



every main character in any series is not based off of goku. does this mean he is feminine  as well?



> So what is the problem again? Gutts was based off an archtype character before him and he has a shitload of clones like Dio said. Your going to debase for that?



there is no problem, now your going to say gutts ripped off goku?

i just stated that gutts is a better lead than naruto or goku, thats all. deal with it.


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## Zephos (Jan 24, 2008)

SoulCrusader said:


> this is like a NARUTO SUCKS ass thread, btw naruto is better main character simply because he is.... o-o.... goku had his time to shine like more then a decade ago now we must lay him to rest and embrace the AWESOMENESS OF NARUTO AND HIS ANTICS so stfu and gtfo of naruto forums if u hate naruto HAHAHAHAAHH ! OVERLORD~ i am chad warden.



Goku is an icon, and Luffy is the domiannt shonen lead these days. Naruto isn't even in charge of his own manga. He sucks that bad that the secodnary characters rival nudged him out of the way.
Goku kept Vegeta's ass in check.



			
				Hyperknuckles22 said:
			
		

> i just stated that gutts is a better lead than naruto or goku, thats all. deal with it.



Than basically your spamming irrelevant crap.
Go troll in the OBD with unrivaled and hollowdemon.


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Jan 24, 2008)

whats wrong with just stating an opinion zephos? is it a crime to say anything that pisses dragonball fans like you off? i dont have very long posts because i have bad athritis in my hands, runs in the family you know. so im not trolling, im being considerate about this, but you jumped my ass over nothing.


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## Tasmanian Tiger (Jan 24, 2008)

Goku is the best anime character of all time. He is the most powerful, most innocent, most loving, caring, kind, spares his greatest enemy's lives, sacrificed his life many times to save the universe.

I mean even Yondaime can't compare to that.

Goku is made from pure WIN.


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## Zephos (Jan 24, 2008)

HyperKnuckles22 said:


> whats wrong with just stating an opinion zephos? is it a crime to say anything that pisses dragonball fans like you off? i dont have very long posts because i have bad athritis in my hands, runs in the family you know. so im not trolling, im being considerate about this, but you jumped my ass over nothing.



I'm probably a bigger Berserk fan than you so don't try and and blame our annoyance on that, your spamming, plain and simple.
Gutts has jack shit to do with the topic.


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## RamzaBeoulve (Jan 24, 2008)

guys, he is using an itachi avatar


----------



## Honzou (Jan 24, 2008)

Tasmanian Tiger said:


> Goku is the best anime character of all time. He is the most powerful, most innocent, most loving, caring, kind, spares his greatest enemy's lives, sacrificed his life many times to save the universe.
> 
> I mean even Yondaime can't compare to that.
> 
> Goku is made from pure WIN.



agreed, no one compares to Goku, his *appetite* itself is made of win. 
Like Zephos said also, naruto doesn't even run his own manga anymore.

I thought this was Goku vs. Naruto what the hell happened?


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## Vaeny (Jan 24, 2008)

Goku: I Will Beat Ze All Enemies with my power!
Naruto: Im 12 years old and i want to be a Paperworking Hokage and i am NOOB!

Guess it.


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## Chidori Mistress (Jan 24, 2008)

Goku wins.


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## Piece.Of.Peace.16 (Jan 24, 2008)

Sylar said:


> Wait someone actually watches Shippuden?



Lots of people watch it.

It's not rare or anything.


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## MavrikM (May 17, 2008)

I like Goku as a main character more, but I like the Naruto Manga more then DBZ


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## Fang (May 17, 2008)

Why did you bump a bloodly thread after three months?


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## Monna (May 17, 2008)

I like both but I'm gonna say Naruto because he's been getting a lot of unfounded hate lately.


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## C. Hook (May 17, 2008)

Paul the SK said:


> I like both but I'm gonna say Naruto because he's been getting a lot of unfounded hate lately.



Unfounded? I don't think he deserves all of his hate, but his personality has gone down the toilet in recent issues. If this is part 1 Naruto, I think this is a better contest.


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## Yoburi (May 17, 2008)

I love Son Goku he is the best main character in Shounen, the man runs his manga and everbody loves him there he got wife, kids and a rival that respects him alot but Naruto don't have shit hell he never even kiss a girl (well he kiss Sasuke) the guy is a emo boy but Goku is almost a War God.


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## Purge (May 17, 2008)

Naruto = Better Manga
Goku = Better Character


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## Fleecy (May 17, 2008)

Goku as a character is very simplistic but also very likable. Naruto has a wider range and has several facets to him that can cause him to be hated by some and loved by others.

I like both, but I like Naruto a bit more because they show him to be more conflicted with himself and not always pure minded.


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## Zorokiller (May 17, 2008)

lol this is a easy one...Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Naruto I mean, why is Naruto the main character? it's all about Uchiha. Kishimoto should just have called it Uchiha Chronicles and left the whole naruto character out of it.


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## Tsumoro (May 17, 2008)

I have to laugh at these kind of threads. I have read both and own all the volumes as im kinda geeky like that. Both are good stories and both are excellent characters. I think people tend to side with Goku a lot more because the manga in itself carries the weight behind it... basically its been around a lot longer, its a completed story and many manga's have recycled the same themes from it over and over again which reminds you of Dragonball or makes you compare against it. 

So I would say, wait until Naruto the manga finally finishes give it ten years to mature like a fine wine and then ask the same question again. 

Personally, I like Naruto mainly because it makes me feel a lot more. I actually care about the characters. Whereas Dragonball was OMG they are dead...hang on a moment... power up 100000??? There was no real accomplishment just more and more fighting... which don't get me wrong, growing up to that was cool! But now im older I like my manga's with more substance.. which Naruto gives me. 

I asked my little brother of 11 who he liked better, Goku or Naruto? He said Goku, when asking him why he said Goku was cooler. I asked him why he was cooler he simply said 'Because he went SS and beat Freezer'. Enough said really. 

But he is only 11 and a lot of the adult content in Naruto is prolly missed because he doesn't understand the feelings of love and loss... that and he is semi-retarded from all the beatings I give him as his older brother. Much love.

Tsu


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## Supa Swag (May 17, 2008)

Paul the SK said:


> I like both but I'm gonna say Naruto because he's been getting a lot of unfounded hate lately.



So how does that make Naruto a better main character?


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## Aldric (May 17, 2008)

> But he is only 11 and a lot of the adult content in Naruto is prolly missed because he doesn't understand the feelings of love and loss...



Yeah I'm sure once he hits 12 he too will find all that half assed drama for whiny teens groundbreaking


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## The Doctor (May 17, 2008)

Tsumoro said:


> But he is only 11 and a lot of the adult content in Naruto is prolly missed because he doesn't understand the feelings of love and loss...



Adult content? In naruto?!!? 

You should read more 

On topic: Goku > Naruto. At least Goku acts like a main character


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## Gary (May 17, 2008)

this was bumped by a newb but goku wins


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (May 17, 2008)

Goku was awesome in the beginning of Dragonball but he got annoying fast. I don't like his attitude much at all. He got on my nerves in a way Naruto has yet to do (despite his recent continuous failures)


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## Wu Fei (May 17, 2008)

Goku's character reached the end of any growth/development at the end of the frieza saga. Dragonball for the most part goku was just carefree. Only when his friends got hurt did he really show changes in demeanor/emotion. It was only until dbz when his roots were explored and his acceptance of his lineage came into play (he shitted on saiyans until vegeta died). 

But goku was always dependable, and when it came to fighting he knew wtf he was doin. But one could also reduce him to hired muscle with a fuckin smile after frieza saga.

Naruto came into his series with half of his development done. That was him getting over the hate of the village since he carried the kyuubi (Iruka helped). He is a bit more interesting as a main character since one of his big things, if not THE big thing, is changing the hearts of those around him. Naruto creates changes and these changes are what make for some interesting stories.

Naruto has alot more growing to do especially with the recent shit happening in the manga. As a fighter he was ok for the genin level, but he still needs to do alot more training. Lately he has one goal, and thats fuckin saving Sasuke. Him focusing on one person and ignoring the threats of the world comes with consequences, and the effects those threats have on people he holds dear (like Jiraiya) will definitely show some change in his character and his priorities.

Who is more likable? Most will prolly go with Goku. I mean he surpasses the gods.

But Naruto, by far, wins the better main character title.


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## Aruarian (May 17, 2008)

Vegeta solo's.


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## Zephos (May 17, 2008)

> So I would say, wait until Naruto the manga finally finishes give it ten years to mature like a fine wine and then ask the same question again.



Naruto went rotten years ago.
Unless you want it to become a mold colony I think now's a good time to judge it.



> Personally, I like Naruto mainly because it makes me feel a lot more. I actually care about the characters. Whereas Dragonball was OMG they are dead...hang on a moment... power up 100000??? There was no real accomplishment just more and more fighting... which don't get me wrong, growing up to that was cool! But now im older I like my manga's with more substance.. which Naruto gives me.



What substance?



> I asked my little brother of 11 who he liked better, Goku or Naruto? He said Goku, when asking him why he said Goku was cooler. I asked him why he was cooler he simply said 'Because he went SS and beat Freezer'. Enough said really.



lol strawman.



> But he is only 11 and a lot of the adult content in Naruto is prolly missed because he doesn't understand the feelings of love and loss... that and he is semi-retarded from all the beatings I give him as his older brother. Much love.



I'm thinking it's just genetic given your using words like "adult", "love", "loss" concerning friggin Naruto.


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## Zephos (May 17, 2008)

> Goku's character reached the end of any growth/development at the end of the frieza saga.



Yhea, that's 27 volumes. Pretty good amount.



> Dragonball for the most part goku was just carefree. Only when his friends got hurt did he really show changes in demeanor/emotion.



Welp, thats just false.



> But goku was always dependable, and when it came to fighting he knew wtf he was doin. But one could also reduce him to hired muscle with a fuckin smile after frieza saga.



What the hell are you even talking about?



> Naruto came into his series with half of his development done. That was him getting over the hate of the village since he carried the kyuubi (Iruka helped). He is a bit more interesting as a main character since one of his big things, if not THE big thing, is changing the hearts of those around him. Naruto creates changes and these changes are what make for some interesting stories.



That perfectly describes Goku.
Goku has more changed hearts than Naruto can hope to get.



> Naruto has alot more growing to do especially with the recent shit happening in the manga. As a fighter he was ok for the genin level, but he still needs to do alot more training. Lately he has one goal, and thats fuckin saving Sasuke. Him focusing on one person and ignoring the threats of the world comes with consequences, and the effects those threats have on people he holds dear (like Jiraiya) will definitely show some change in his character and his priorities.



Actually it's more along the lines of Kishimoto's priorities that are in question.


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## Ennoea (May 17, 2008)

Naruto is a character completely destroyed in recent times by Kishimoto. But Goku is fairly overrated himself, lets just end at Naruto being a retard and Goku being just above that.


----------



## Nuzzie (May 17, 2008)

What about Goku or Luffy -- Who's the better main character?


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## Gary (May 17, 2008)

Nuzzie said:


> What about Goku or Luffy -- Who's the better main character?



luffy *hides from fan girls and fan boys *


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## Wu Fei (May 17, 2008)

Zephos said:


> Yhea, that's 27 volumes. Pretty good amount.


 Oh please. Dude goku's character was static until volume 17 (he finds out about saiyans-raditz and shit). So don't even try to say his character was developing for 27 volumes. 





> Welp, thats just false.


 i hate this. okay, you say its false. please say something that would enlighten me. We all know Goku. Unless he was fighting, or he had to save a friend, or he was tripin bout 4star ball, there wasn't shit to him until raditz rocked his world.





> What the hell are you even talking about?


  comprehension skills are a must. After Namek, Goku was only around to kickass. There was no growth, story or anything revolving around him. He was a happy dude who just kicked the big badguy's ass since no one else could. Hence hired muscle with a smile. 

I think about it and the only time that actually seemed to shake him was his realization that not everybody likes to fight like him (when Piccolo snapped during cell fight cuz goku failed to realize how gohan doesn't like to fight despite his huge potential). i'm goin off memory tho.




> That perfectly describes Goku.
> Goku has more changed hearts than Naruto can hope to get.


 Its one thing to make friends or convince old fools to teach u, but its another to  cause characters with such troubled backgrounds to make emotional breakthroughs and just create a whole story around such transformations. Name someone that has shown such a breakthru thanks to Goku. hmm. I think Tien and MAYBE Vegeta. Vegeta just had to get his ass kicked on multiple levels and get some pussy to finally humble down.

But those don't come close to stuff shown by Haku, Inari, GAARA, Neji, Tsunade, Kabuto lol. Hell JIRAIYA CAME BACK FROM DEATH THANKS TO NARUTO! NO DRAGONBALLS EITHER!



> Actually it's more along the lines of Kishimoto's priorities that are in question.



priorities only concerns how soon shit will happen. Doesn't eliminate the fact that something will happen. But the story isn't done yet so i'm not gonna try to defend shit that hasn't happened yet.


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## Zephos (May 17, 2008)

> Oh please. Dude goku's character was static until volume 17 (he finds out about saiyans-raditz and shit). So don't even try to say his character was developing for 27 volumes.



Sure it was. As much as Naruto or any shonen character does.



> i hate this. okay, you say its false. please say something that would enlighten me. We all know Goku. Unless he was fighting, or he had to save a friend, or he was tripin bout 4star ball, there wasn't shit to him until raditz rocked his world.



So your position is there isn't shit to him, but you just listed three things.
Why should I bother responding if your going to refute yourself?
I dunno man.

Oh yhea, add his grandpa, nievete, and his self control as facets of character development prior to Raditz.



> comprehension skills are a must. After Namek, Goku was only around to kickass. There was no growth, story or anything revolving around him. He was a happy dude who just kicked the big badguy's ass since no one else could. Hence hired muscle with a smile.



He trained and raised his son to surpass and take care of things when he died. Otherwise your right.
But hey, 27 volumes > 16 volumes.
Which is about as long as Naruto had character development.



> I think about it and the only time that actually seemed to shake him was his realization that not everybody likes to fight like him (when Piccolo snapped during cell fight cuz goku failed to realize how gohan doesn't like to fight despite his huge potential). i'm goin off memory tho.



You mean post-Freeza? You better.



> Its one thing to make friends or convince old fools to teach u, but its another to  cause characters with such troubled backgrounds to make emotional breakthroughs and just create a whole story around such transformations.





> Name someone that has shown such a breakthru thanks to Goku. hmm. I think Tien and MAYBE Vegeta. Vegeta just had to get his ass kicked on multiple levels and get some pussy to finally humble down.



-Oolong
-Yamcha
-Puar
-Kuririn
-Tenshinhan
-Chaozu
-Piccolo
-Vegeta



> But those don't come close to stuff shown by Haku, Inari, GAARA, Neji, Tsunade, Kabuto lol. Hell JIRAIYA CAME BACK FROM DEATH THANKS TO NARUTO! NO DRAGONBALLS EITHER!



Kabuto? What the hell did Naruto do for him?
I almost forgot about Inari, his example is so weak.

None of those come close to Piccolo of course.


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## RamzaBeoulve (May 18, 2008)

Wu Fei said:


> Naruto has alot more growing to do especially with the recent shit happening in the manga. As a fighter he was ok for the genin level, but he still needs to do alot more training. *Lately* he has one goal, and thats fuckin saving Sasuke. Him focusing on one person and ignoring the threats of the world comes with consequences, and the effects those threats have on people he holds dear (like Jiraiya) will definitely show some change in his character and his priorities.


lol "lately"
that has been his only goal since chase sasuke arc
he has no development ever since

and pointing out the "he still has a lot of w/e to happen" doesnt make him a better character

that can be said for all the characters
(eg "tenten came into the series with no development,
but she will get a lot more development, and more growing in the future, so she is a better character")

complete BS


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## Raiyu (May 18, 2008)

Son Goku all the way. Screw Naruto. (The character, not the show )


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## Yαriko (May 18, 2008)

I like Naruto better..just because he is not like Goku...Goku saved everyone and the saga was over....Naruto is different he loses sometimes....he never gives up...Naruto is not the cliche main charcater who is saving everyone...and that's why I like him more


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## Aldric (May 18, 2008)

Why don't people read Dragonball before posting in these threads

It makes Aldric sad


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## Dio Brando (May 18, 2008)

So the main argument for Naruto being better than Goku is that he fails to save people. 

Well what a fucking hero. Goku's got nuttin.


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## Aldric (May 18, 2008)

It supposedly makes him more "human"

Like Sakura is the most "human" character

What a horribly petty vision of humanity these people have


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## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (May 18, 2008)

Goku is the FAR better protagonist of a FAR better series. 

No matter who you are, you have to love Goku

Even Kishimoto has given up on Naruto


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## Kenny Florian (May 18, 2008)

Yariko said:


> I like Naruto better..just because he is not like Goku...Goku saved everyone and the saga was over....Naruto is different he loses sometimes....he never gives up...Naruto is not the cliche main charcater who is saving everyone...and that's why I like him more



Well actually Goku lost to quite a few through out DB before he ever beat them, especially when he was a kid and less experienced. The King Piccolo era I think Goku lost both his friend and his teacher along with a ton of other civillians before he finally managed to defeat King Piccolo.


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## Wu Fei (May 18, 2008)

Zephos said:


> Sure it was. As much as Naruto or any shonen character does.


 
Ignore other shounen and keep it to naruto and goku brah. dbz volumes were usually around 15-18 chapters a pop i think. So consider that in the time goku remained the same. Naruto has his breaks in growth, but a new facet or change to his character is often seen after 4-5 volumes. We all know he's been on one track mind since Sasuke left Oro, but if u think about it not much time has really passed. Its just been long fights taking place around the same time.



> So your position is there isn't shit to him, but you just listed three things.
> Why should I bother responding if your going to refute yourself?
> I dunno man.
> 
> Oh yhea, add his grandpa, nievete, and his self control as facets of character development prior to Raditz.



I've been talking more about development and complexity to his character. CHANGE in it. If u read ur mangas and think only 3 pointers about the main character is sufficient, thats ur issue. And grandpa is the same thing as the 4 star ball. His nievete is one of the things that always remained the same lol.



> He trained and raised his son to surpass and take care of things when he died. Otherwise your right.
> But hey, 27 volumes > 16 volumes.
> Which is about as long as Naruto had character development.



i know i'm right. lol. (i'm just being an ass, don't trip). 

I guess we could say he changed from a student to a teacher over the years. While not much to his character he did continuosly grow in the martial arts department (duh).



> You mean post-Freeza? You better.



 No shit man, i said during the cell fight. 



> -Oolong
> -Yamcha
> -Puar
> -Kuririn
> ...



I KNEW YOU'd SAY PICCOLO LIKE AN ...! Piccolo was ALL Gohan. nothing else to say about that. 

And all the people u listed beside Tien (n chaozu i guess, he was more of a follower), and Vegeta, are Inari tier. They had their issues but nothing traumatic to them. And they just came to be cool with goku over time. Weak. I wouldn't say shit if he changed Frieza's heart or Piccolo's ya know.

Kabuto is still a nutjob, but he has admitted Naruto's influence on him and how he longs to find himself and no longer walk in others shadows (though he sorta is by keeping oro part of him). Its a breakthru, but a weird one, hence y i tacked on a "lol" before.




> Originally Posted by *RamzaBeoulve*
> lol "lately"
> that has been his only goal since chase sasuke arc
> he has no development ever since



Yes LATELY because before the world found out about Sasuke killing Oro, Naruto not only wanted to get Sasuke back, but he was doing other things as well (getting garaa from akatsuki, developing jutsu, saving asuma squad from kakuzu). Saving Sasuke has always been his top goal and major motivation, but it wasn't always the only thing. Right now it is though.

And what manga have you been reading man. He grew as a jinchuuriki during the timeskip. Hence a greater dependance on it. After hurting Sakura he had begun to shun the kyuubi alot. And instead of fully using it, just learn to amplify his ninja abilities with the chakra. He had to learn to control his emotions and just be more analytical. His inferiority complex returned after failing to rescue Sasuke in Sai's arc. He was moping like a bitch. He regained confidence in himself after wind training and one shot Kakuzu. If those aint changes in his character mang...



> and pointing out the "he still has a lot of w/e to happen" doesnt make him a better character
> 
> that can be said for all the characters
> (eg "tenten came into the series with no development,
> ...



I already said i wasn't gonna try to debate shit that hasn't happened. I was only pointing out something. I wasn't using it as some huge basis for naruto's character. so drop it. (besides that tenten shit u said is just stupid, u know should slap urself for even saying something like that. That can't be said for all characters because not every characters godfather's death is looming on the horizon.)

what U said was complete BS my friend.


----------



## RamzaBeoulve (May 18, 2008)

Wu Fei said:


> Yes LATELY because before the world found out about Sasuke killing Oro, Naruto not only wanted to get Sasuke back, but he was doing other things as well (getting garaa from akatsuki, *developing jutsu, saving asuma squad from kakuzu)*. Saving Sasuke has always been his top goal and major motivation, but it wasn't always the only thing. Right now it is though.
> 
> And what manga have you been reading man. He grew as a jinchuuriki during the timeskip. Hence a greater dependance on it. After hurting Sakura he had begun to shun the kyuubi alot. And instead of fully using it, just learn to amplify his ninja abilities with the chakra. He had to learn to control his emotions and just be more analytical. His inferiority complex returned after failing to rescue Sasuke in Sai's arc. He was moping like a bitch. He regained confidence in himself after wind training and one shot Kakuzu. If those aint changes in his character mang...
> 
> ...


no shit it was stupid, i was mocking ur post

and the garra part, sure ok, u can call that development
but the developing jutsu, and saving asuma are not developments at all

developing jutsu (which happens to be a bigger rasengan lol) is so he can beat sasuke, which has been the same since the beginning, 

and saving asuma is essentially just...
someone: asuma has passed away
naruto-*SHOCK FACE!*


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## Vault (May 18, 2008)

goku babyshakes 

even when goku was a kid he wasnt some emo brat who cries all the time


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## Gary (May 18, 2008)

wow so much flame bait it seems like


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## Zephos (May 18, 2008)

> Ignore other shounen and keep it to naruto and goku brah. dbz volumes were usually around 15-18 chapters a pop i think.



12 to 9. That's not a big deal at all.



> So consider that in the time goku remained the same. Naruto has his breaks in growth, but a new facet or change to his character is often seen after 4-5 volumes.



I havn't seen any at all since Volume 20.



> We all know he's been on one track mind since Sasuke left Oro, but if u think about it not much time has really passed. Its just been long fights taking place around the same time.



Three years passed. Three fucking years.



> I've been talking more about development and complexity to his character. CHANGE in it. If u read ur mangas and think only 3 pointers about the main character is sufficient, thats ur issue. And grandpa is the same thing as the 4 star ball. His nievete is one of the things that always remained the same lol.



Granpa is NOT the same. Your forgetting his coming down to earth.
His nievete didn't remain the same. Seriously, read what your talking about.
And I still don't know what your talking about with Naruto. Whose stayed the same since the end of Part 1.



> I KNEW YOU'd SAY PICCOLO LIKE AN ...! Piccolo was ALL Gohan. nothing else to say about that.



Yhea it's too bad Piccolo himself said it was because of Goku too.



> And all the people u listed beside Tien (n chaozu i guess, he was more of a follower), and Vegeta, are Inari tier. They had their issues but nothing traumatic to them.



Why does it matter how traumatic the change?


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## Wu Fei (May 18, 2008)

RamzaBeoulve said:


> no shit it was stupid, i was mocking ur post
> 
> and the garra part, sure ok, u can call that development
> but the developing jutsu, and saving asuma are not developments at all
> ...



....... i didn't call that stuff development. I said those were things on his mind besides Sasuke. If i were to consider saving friends and learning techniques part of the characters complexity i would have gave it to goku off the bat.



vault023 said:


> goku babyshakes
> 
> even when goku was a kid he wasnt some emo brat who cries all the time


 
lol. Broly begs to differ.


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## Zephos (May 18, 2008)

I'm not exactly inclined to take anything you say about character quality seriously anyway man. Your name is "Wu Fei".

That's the worst character in a show that had practically nothing but horrible character.


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## Zorokiller (May 18, 2008)

Narutards..

Seriously, I was at that point somewhat like..3 or 4 years ago..I was like wow Naruto is awesome!!!!!1!!1!!~  but...Then I saw a change in myself, other series, matter of growing up I mean..

Goku is really much, much, much better then Naruto as character.
I mean, in Naruto character development means they all have a f*cked up past and they fight Naruto and they all become suddenly happy again just because they got their assed handed over to him. I mean what's up with that, with where the story is going now it will be like 

Madara: "Naruto, you are right, I shouldn't be this frustrated about power and everything, Pain call everyone together and lets just stop okay?"
Pain: "Yes, you're right, we're terribly sorry let's become friends!"
Naruto: "Ofcourse-ttebayo!"

I loved the Haku and Zabuza thing, but afterwards looking back at it it all became a little too much emo and repetitive. 

And the fact that Naruto stays the same stupid unlogical bastard which totally has the hots on Sasuke without a reason, because they're friends, while Sasuke was like a bitch the whole time but oh well..


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## Wu Fei (May 18, 2008)

Zephos said:


> Three years passed. Three fucking years.



I'm not sure if ur just an anime watcher. Its only been like two weeks or so since Sasuke left Oro. But its been a loooong two weeks.



Zephos said:


> Granpa is NOT the same. Your forgetting his coming down to earth.
> His nievete didn't remain the same. Seriously, read what your talking about.
> And I still don't know what your talking about with Naruto. Whose stayed the same since the end of Part 1.



"Let Vegeta live he'll be alright." (i'll come back and make ur life hell)
"Frieza, you killed everybody but be a good boy, bye bye." (u turned ur back dumbass, now die)
"Cell, i'm tired. you win.The worlds at stake but here's a senzu bean." (power up. thank u dumbass)
"Gohan, u got potential go kill Cell." (but dad i don't like fighting)





Zephos said:


> Yhea it's too bad Piccolo himself said it was because of Goku too.



 when and where (i seriously don't remember him saying goku changed him)? I'm goin off what i saw. And i saw Picollo kill Goku with a coke and smile. Then he had to train Gohan and grew soft for the kid. Then he died for him. He came back to life a new namekian. And he busted a nut after joining Nail. dunno how goku gets any credit besides bringin gohan into the world.



Zephos said:


> Why does it matter how traumatic the change?



Because its those changes that give alot of the depth and feeling to Naruto (the manga). And its Naruto's character and will which helps trigger many of those changes (consequently the stories) which usually takes an arc. 

*Look, I'm not taking anything away from Goku. I like him more than Naruto.* But damnit Goku did not do much to make dragonball some epic story (i'm not saying Naruto the manga is, but really which story is better). He kicked ass all over the universe. If you were bad, he'd be naive, but u'd sooner or later die. Naruto usually found some damn way to turn the badass into a pansy and we'd get a history lesson that is just sad. Someone who instigates story, developement, action. This is why i say Naruto makes a better main character.


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## Masurao (May 18, 2008)

Goku by a fucking mile.


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## CrimsonRex (May 18, 2008)

Teresa Brasil said:


> Adult content? In naruto?!!?
> 
> You should read more
> 
> On topic: Goku > Naruto. At least Goku acts like a main character



*The man speaks t3h truth! *


----------



## Supa Swag (May 18, 2008)

Yariko said:


> I like Naruto better..just because he is not like Goku...Goku saved everyone and the saga was over....Naruto is different he loses sometimes....he never gives up...Naruto is not the cliche main charcater who is saving everyone...and that's why I like him more



UGGGGGHHHHH.   

Goku didn't always save everyone so that's bullshit.

Goku lost too (more so than Naruto as a matter of fact) so he's the same as Naruto.

Goku never gives up either, another thing he's the same as Naruto. As a matter of fact, practically all Shounen main heroes never give up.

And there are hardly any main characters saving every single person.

Ya know what this means? It means Naruto is JUST AS CLICHE AS GOKU! 



So try again.



Wu Fei said:


> But damnit Goku did not do much to make dragonball some epic story (i'm not saying Naruto the manga is, but really which story is better).



Not counting the Cell/Buu sagas that Toriyama was practically forced to make? Dragonball easily.


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## Wu Fei (May 18, 2008)

Zephos said:


> I'm not exactly inclined to take anything you say about character quality seriously anyway man. Your name is "Wu Fei".
> 
> That's the worst character in a show that had practically nothing but horrible character.



omg why? Am I pissin u off bruh? Is there really a need to try to shit on me. I happened to like Wu Fei so get the fuck off mine cuz. Gundam wing got me into the mecha shit so it'll always be the ish in my book. I gives a fuck about what a hater has to say.

I like goku better but Naruto makes for a better main character. simple as that. omg, i  wonder if this is a favorite character topic, or an actual debate, cuz all i'm seein is lil bitches who snap when their favorite character isn't getting all the votes.


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## Zephos (May 18, 2008)

> I'm not sure if ur just an anime watcher. Its only been like two weeks or so since Sasuke left Oro. But its been a loooong two weeks.



Were talking about Naruto, he's been obsessing over Sasuke since Sasuke left konoha.



> "Let Vegeta live he'll be alright." (i'll come back and make ur life hell)
> "Frieza, you killed everybody but be a good boy, bye bye." (u turned ur back dumbass, now die)
> "Cell, i'm tired. you win.The worlds at stake but here's a senzu bean." (power up. thank u dumbass)
> "Gohan, u got potential go kill Cell." (but dad i don't like fighting)



Goku never thought any of those people would be nice if they were allowed to live. Your confusing Saiyen battle idiocy with the sort of nievte that made Goku have to touch crotches to confirm genders.



> when and where (i seriously don't remember him saying goku changed him)? I'm goin off what i saw. And i saw Picollo kill Goku with a coke and smile.







> Then he had to train Gohan and grew soft for the kid. Then he died for him. He came back to life a new namekian. And he busted a nut after joining Nail. dunno how goku gets any credit besides bringin gohan into the world.



Goku let him live after the 23rd Budokai and was more or less friendly with him when they went to fight Raditz.



> Because its those changes that give alot of the depth and feeling to Naruto (the manga). And its Naruto's character and will which helps trigger many of those changes (consequently the stories) which usually takes an arc.



Ahahaha.
Level of trauma has nothing to do with depth.



> *Look, I'm not taking anything away from Goku. I like him more than Naruto.* But damnit Goku did not do much to make dragonball some epic story (i'm not saying Naruto the manga is, but really which story is better).



Dragonball's story is better.


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## Wu Fei (May 19, 2008)

omg piccolo death...saddest moment ever.



Zephos said:


> Ahahaha.
> Level of trauma has nothing to do with depth.



the level is a testament to Naruto's ability to make such changes.




Zephos said:


> Dragonball's story is better.



Okay now ur just choosing to argue with anything i say. Its opinions anyway.  but i gives a fuck now. Ur just another fanboy who chooses to overlook shit that flatout debunks ur arguments, unable to set aside bias and be real. dbz 4 life over here, but man u gotta quit suckin dick.


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## Zephos (May 19, 2008)

> the level is a testament to Naruto's ability to make such changes.



The only really really major change he caused in a person was Gaara, where he reversed an entire lifetime of problems, something Goku did twice in far more confusing situations with Vegeta and Piccolo.



> Okay now ur just choosing to argue with anything i say. Its opinions anyway.  but i gives a fuck now. Ur just another fanboy who chooses to overlook shit that flatout debunks ur arguments, unable to set aside bias and be real. dbz 4 life over here, but man u gotta quit suckin dick.



It's not that Dragonball is great, it's just that Naruto is lousy.


----------



## Wu Fei (May 19, 2008)

Zephos said:


> The only really really major change he caused in a person was Gaara, where he reversed an entire lifetime of problems, something Goku did twice in far more confusing situations with Vegeta and Piccolo.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that Dragonball is great, it's just that Naruto is lousy.



once again ur giving goku way too much credit for piccolo. but fuck it. and we already went over this. suck 1.

i wish u said Naruto was lousy off the jump. I wouldn't have wasted time on your bull. I enjoy both series. U apparently only enjoy one. I can speak without bias. Clearly u can't.


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## Yαriko (May 19, 2008)

Kitty Litter said:


> UGGGGGHHHHH.
> 
> Goku didn't always save everyone so that's bullshit.
> 
> ...



I was just trying to say that I like Naruto more than Goku...what is so hard to understand?

I dont really care who is more cliche...or who acts more like the main character...I just like Naruto more and that's it...


----------



## Supa Swag (May 19, 2008)

Yariko said:


> I was just trying to say that I like Naruto more than Goku...what is so hard to understand?
> 
> I dont really care who is more cliche...or who acts more like the main character...I just like Naruto more and that's it...



You can like whomever you want, just don't try to spout BS like Naruto is a unique character.


----------



## Sylar (May 19, 2008)

This is still going? 

Naruto was a half assed Goku clone and had he stayed that way he would've been a half decent character. However he's reverted to an emo pussy and got booted from the position of main character by a bishie with the personality of a block of wood and deus ex machina eyes.

So yeah Goku >>>> Naruto.


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## Proxy (May 19, 2008)

Goku is everything Kishi wanted Naruto to be, but isn't. Not to downgrade Naruto, but comparing him to arguably the greatest "good guy" in manga is going to fail. Goku's saga, from a youth to SS, was nothing short of epic. 

Naruto hasn't done anything that's even on the level of Goku's first SS transformation.


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## ez (May 19, 2008)

-CALAMITY- said:


> Goku by a fucking mile.



my sentiments exactly 

Goku's not hyperactive and annoying at least.

He's often benevolent, and an overall enjoyable personality. His stupidity/ignorance is usually amusing, where as Naruto's tends to just get on my nerves.


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## Glued (May 19, 2008)

Goku is a better representation of why a person should train. Goku continuously strived to be the best he could be.

Goku, Goku never actually set up rivals for himself. He never made benchmarks. He only trained so that he could be the strongest he can be. Goku when battling Vegeta though Vegeta would be a good sparring partner.

Naruto has set Sasuke as a benchmark and rival. This is not a good idea, since it actually puts a limit on himself. This is sort of childish on Naruto's part. For Naruto to be on par with Goku, he must first let go of his petty rivalries. Naruto has abandoned his responsibilities for the sake of personal friendship. Goku would not do such things.

Naruto needs character development, victories to prove his worth and etc... to even think about being a main like Goku


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## E (May 19, 2008)

GOKU IS A MOTHAFUCKEN LEGEND!!!!!!

NUFF FUCKEN SAID


----------



## Aldric (May 19, 2008)

It should also be noted Goku was the son of a nobody (he was considered as a second rate Saiyan) and became incredibly strong through sheer willpower and effort

While Naruto is the son of one of the greatest ninja to ever live and is still an abject failure

Who's the "underdog" here


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## Sylar (May 19, 2008)

Aldric said:


> It should also be noted Goku was the son of a nobody (he was considered as a second rate Saiyan) and became incredibly strong through sheer willpower and effort
> 
> While Naruto is the son of one of the greatest ninja to ever live and is still an abject failure
> 
> Who's the "underdog" here



It is pretty funny that Naruto is considered an 'underdog' despite his supposedly super-powerful ninja father, two of the greatest ninja in the world personally training him for years, and having a powerful demon sealed inside him that lets him use its power.


----------



## Aldric (May 19, 2008)

And probably the most broken training method ever conceived in any shonen


----------



## C-Moon (May 19, 2008)

That should've been given to him during the TS(but hey, Jiraiya's pretty much an idiot).


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## Zephos (May 19, 2008)

Wu Fei said:


> once again ur giving goku way too much credit for piccolo. but fuck it. and we already went over this. suck 1.
> 
> i wish u said Naruto was lousy off the jump. I wouldn't have wasted time on your bull. I enjoy both series. U apparently only enjoy one. I can speak without bias. Clearly u can't.



I'm not big into watching nubile young men pine for eachother, so you can see my issues regarding Naruto as of Part 2.

Though I guess that explains your frequent use of fellatio related disses.


----------



## Doom85 (May 19, 2008)

Definitely Naruto. Okay, this may not be fair since Naruto's only 15, but he's hasn't had two failures of a son (one, Gohan, who was supposed to be the new hero for the next generation, but then.....yeah, the whole scholarly and Goku beating Buu thing, and then the other, Goten, who got whooped by a spoiled brat and then fused with said brat to form one of the most annoying anime characters of all time), nor has he done anything this idiotic:

Vegeta: MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Fight me, Kakarot!!!

(proceeds to blow up half of the tournament stadium, filled with loving families, innocent children, and maybe even a few puppies)
Goku and the others: Ah, shit!!! Vegeta, how could you?!!!

(2 hours later)

Goku: Hey Vegeta, want to team up against Buu?
Vegeta: Definitely, we don't have a chance fighting him alone.
Goku: Awesome! Oh boy, this is great!!!
Vegeta (thinking): Uh, why he is so excited fighting alongside me, I just murdered hundreds of people. For being this noobish, he deserves nothing less than to get K.O.'d by a back blow to the head and for me to hog all the glory!

Vegeta proceeds to do just that. But then again, it's not Goku's or his kids' fault. 90% of the Buu Saga was epic fail. Should've ended with Cell, Toriyama.


----------



## The Doctor (May 19, 2008)

So you are actually saying that Naruto > Goku just bcuz Boo saga was a fail?


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## Doom85 (May 19, 2008)

Teresa Brasil said:


> So you are actually saying that Naruto > Goku just bcuz Boo saga was a fail?



Oh, there were tons of other moments:

1) Raditz: "Hey, Goku, even though I've proven I'm a cold, heartless bastard, could you free me? It'll only endanger the lives of every human on Earth".
Goku: "Yeah, why not?"
Piccolo: 

2) Goku: Wait, Krillin! Don't kill Vegeta! Sure, he blew up an entire planet that loved him, sure, he wiped out an entire city, sure, he murdered his own comrade, sure, he's a power-hungry psychopath, but he could CHANGE!
Krillin: You know, it's moments like these that I'm almost grateful they're omitting me from the live-action movies.

3) Goku: We're going to train in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber! We can get a year's worth of training in a day!
Gohan: Wait, WTF?! You just decided to bring this up NOW?!!!
Goku: We can only use it twice, and I thought we should save it for an emergency.
Gohan: What do you think's been going on for the past 4 years?!!!

4) Goku: Oh yeah, I surrender, Cell. But Gohan can beat you.
Everyone: Sweet!
Goku: Oh, and have a Senzu Bean.
Everyone: 
Piccolo: The whole "Earth's fate hangs in the balance, it's not a *beep*ing game" still hasn't sunk in yet, has it?

5) Goku: All right, Vegeta, I'll fight you.
Vegeta: Don't hold back!
Goku: Oh, I won't. I definitely won't use a SSJ3 transformation, which apparently I knew sometime before coming back to Earth, but rather I'll stay SSJ 2 the whole time, thus dragging this fight out and ensuring Buu's return.
Vegeta: ..........

6) Goku: Boy, I sure hope we see Kid Buu again.
Piccolo: Okay, that's it, we're getting you therapy.

And I'm sorry, the whole "he's naive" bullshit excuse only lasts for so long. By the time Goku endangered the fate of the world for the 16th time, I wanted to throw a brick at him. There's a good way of doing childlike naivity without it being completely irresponsible, and his name is Luffy.  

Luffy >>>> Naruto >>>>>>>>>> Ichigo (would be higher if it wasn't the "power-stacking" he get in the first 55 episodes) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku.


----------



## Byakkö (May 19, 2008)

Goku, he's just better.

The whole "I'M GONNA BE HOKAGE AND SAVE SASUKE" is retarded and redundant.


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## C-Moon (May 19, 2008)

Goku doesn't get shafted by his own creator for whole arcs for a bland "REVENGE!!" character, am I rite?

It's over Goku won.


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## Sylar (May 19, 2008)

Doom85 said:


> Oh, there were tons of other moments:
> 
> 1) Raditz: "Hey, Goku, even though I've proven I'm a cold, heartless bastard, could you free me? It'll only endanger the lives of every human on Earth".
> Goku: "Yeah, why not?"
> Piccolo:



He was his brother. And Goku's naivete is part of his CHARACTER. Ya know that thing Naruto characters lack?



> 2) Goku: Wait, Krillin! Don't kill Vegeta! Sure, he blew up an entire planet that loved him, sure, he wiped out an entire city, sure, he murdered his own comrade, sure, he's a power-hungry psychopath, but he could CHANGE!
> Krillin: You know, it's moments like these that I'm almost grateful they're omitting me from the live-action movies.



Mercy for his enemies. Once again part of his character.



> 3) Goku: We're going to train in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber! We can get a year's worth of training in a day!
> Gohan: Wait, WTF?! You just decided to bring this up NOW?!!!
> Goku: We can only use it twice, and I thought we should save it for an emergency.
> Gohan: What do you think's been going on for the past 4 years?!!!



Maybe because he didn't want to take a year of his son's life away if he didn't have to?



> 4) Goku: Oh yeah, I surrender, Cell. But Gohan can beat you.
> Everyone: Sweet!
> Goku: Oh, and have a Senzu Bean.
> Everyone:
> Piccolo: The whole "Earth's fate hangs in the balance, it's not a *beep*ing game" still hasn't sunk in yet, has it?



Confidence in his son. He needed Gohan to beat Cell at his strongest in order for him to fully take over the mantle of Earth's protector from Goku. Goku couldn't keep flying in and saving the day. Gohan had to bear the burden of responsibility.



> 5) Goku: All right, Vegeta, I'll fight you.
> Vegeta: Don't hold back!
> Goku: Oh, I won't. I definitely won't use a SSJ3 transformation, which apparently I knew sometime before coming back to Earth, but rather I'll stay SSJ 2 the whole time, thus dragging this fight out and ensuring Buu's return.
> Vegeta: ..........



He didn't use it because it would drain him too much (he was saving for Buu) and because he didn't want to crush Vegeta.



> 6) Goku: Boy, I sure hope we see Kid Buu again.
> Piccolo: Okay, that's it, we're getting you therapy.



Buu wasn't evil, he was a child who was given incredible powers and was told by his 'father' figure to kill people. Everything was a game to him. He had no notion of right or wrong. Oh and BTW the Buu saga was forced on Toriyama. He wanted to end DB after Frieza, but was forced to write the Cell saga (again intending to end it there), but once again was made to add on another saga.



> And I'm sorry, the whole "he's naive" bullshit excuse only lasts for so long. By the time Goku endangered the fate of the world for the 16th time, I wanted to throw a brick at him. There's a good way of doing childlike naivity without it being completely irresponsible, and his name is Luffy.



And how many times has Naruto put his teammates in danger due to his stupidity (not naietiviy, but plain stupidity)?



> Luffy >>>> Naruto >>>>>>>>>> Ichigo (would be higher if it wasn't the "power-stacking" he get in the first 55 episodes) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku.



You putting Ichigo (the guy with NO personality whatsoever) is just plain sad.


----------



## Doom85 (May 19, 2008)

Sylar said:


> He was his brother. And Goku's naivete is part of his CHARACTER. Ya know that thing Naruto characters lack?
> Mercy for his enemies. Once again part of his character.
> Maybe because he didn't want to take a year of his son's life away if he didn't have to?
> Confidence in his son. He needed Gohan to beat Cell at his strongest in order for him to fully take over the mantle of Earth's protector from Goku. Goku couldn't keep flying in and saving the day. Gohan had to bear the burden of responsibility.
> ...



-Who he had never known. And if you think DBZ's characters are more indepth than Naruto's, well, I respect the "ignorance = bliss" lifestyle (you're a Heroes fan, so I guess that explains it)
-No, it's a goddamn act of vigilantism that makes no sense. When Superman and Batman spare their enemies, they have at least enough common sense to put the villain in prison. Goku's kinda like, "screw it, I'm sure they won't massacre millions between right now and when we see him again."
-Right, because training with Piccolo was a ton of fun and games
-which might have been fine, if Gohan hadn't proven he wasn't ready, and then the next saga completely contradicted the theme of the next generation coming over by having Goku beat the final villain, while Gohan and Gotenks got pwned
-saving for Buu? Buu wasn't even released! He could have knocked Vegeta out fast, and used his remaining time to help out Gohan. A plan that simply shouldn't have been above Goku's reasoning
-wonderful. If Galactus had the same backstory, I would still kick the shit out of anyone who would suggest it'd be awesome to see him again. He annihilated countless worlds, people!
-oh wow, his teammates, which consist of a high-level Jonin who can often manage to get past that (assuming Naruto doesn't correct the mistake first). Also, I didn't realize the "fate of your teammates" and "fate of the world" had the same importance, but apparently so.
-At least I don't want to beat the crap out of Ichigo for endangering all our lives multiple times. Or forgiving mass murderers. Or contradicting manga themes.


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## Zephos (May 19, 2008)

> -Who he had never known. And if you think DBZ's characters are more indepth than Naruto's, well, I respect the "ignorance = bliss" lifestyle (you're a Heroes fan, so I guess that explains it)



Your a Naruto fan, why are you even talking here?



> -No, it's a goddamn act of vigilantism that makes no sense. When Superman and Batman spare their enemies, they have at least enough common sense to put the villain in prison. Goku's kinda like, "screw it, I'm sure they won't massacre millions between right now and when we see him again."



Vegeta did reform. lol



> -Right, because training with Piccolo was a ton of fun and games



Yhea, because Goku totally made Gohan train with Piccolo.



> -which might have been fine, if Gohan hadn't proven he wasn't ready, and then the next saga completely contradicted the theme of the next generation coming over by having Goku beat the final villain, while Gohan and Gotenks got pwned



Gohan won. Goku would have lost if he kept fighting Cell, whereas Gohan upgraded due to it.
You need to pick examples where Goku's choice wasn't actually right in the end lol.



> -saving for Buu? Buu wasn't even released! He could have knocked Vegeta out fast, and used his remaining time to help out Gohan. A plan that simply shouldn't have been above Goku's reasoning



Boo _was_ released at that point.



> -wonderful. If Galactus had the same backstory, I would still kick the shit out of anyone who would suggest it'd be awesome to see him again. He annihilated countless worlds, people!



Goku specifically states he wants to see Boo in a different form. As in not a murdering monster one.
Walaa wish granted. Or did you expect Goku to throw a tantrum when he found out Uub wasn't into genocide?


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## Prowler (May 19, 2008)

*Of curse, Son Goku. *


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## Protect_The_Butter (May 19, 2008)

I thought Goku left Vegeta alive so he could fight him again later on. Part of his sayian battle lust thing.


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## Zephos (May 19, 2008)

Protect_The_Butter said:


> I thought Goku left Vegeta alive so he could fight him again later on. Part of his sayian battle lust thing.



Actually yhea, your right.
Same with Piccolo.


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## Kenny Florian (May 19, 2008)

Zephos said:


> Actually yhea, your right.
> Same with Piccolo.



They turned around in the end so its all good.

Anyways it's part of Goku's character wouldn't have him any other way.


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## Wu Fei (May 19, 2008)

Zephos said:


> I'm not big into watching nubile young men pine for eachother, so you can see my issues regarding Naruto as of Part 2.
> 
> Though I guess that explains your frequent use of fellatio related disses.



nah, it was just your numerous references to ass and ur sig that pointed out what u lik to do in ur spare time, pussy.


----------



## Zephos (May 19, 2008)

Wu Fei said:


> ur sig that pointed out what u lik to do in ur spare time, pussy.



So your accusing me of being straight.

I stand guilty.


----------



## Fang (May 19, 2008)

What's wrong with a legend like Top Cat?


----------



## Tash (May 19, 2008)

Wu Fei said:


> nah, it was just your numerous references to ass and ur sig that pointed out what u lik to do in ur spare time, pussy.





Zephos said:


> So your accusing me of being straight.
> 
> I stand guilty.



To those viewing at home, this is what we call a double entendre.


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## Aruarian (May 19, 2008)

Wu Fei? More like Wu Fail.


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## Doom85 (May 19, 2008)

Zephos said:


> Your a Naruto fan, why are you even talking here?
> Vegeta did reform. lol
> Yhea, because Goku totally made Gohan train with Piccolo.
> Gohan won. Goku would have lost if he kept fighting Cell, whereas Gohan upgraded due to it.
> ...



-Gee, I dunno, Naruto MAY have something to do with the topic at hand 
-wonderful. This isn't based on outcome, it's based on judgement during the situation. If I ran into bin Laden and let him walk free, and then later he's running  a charity organization, guess what? Letting him walk free at the time was still a massively noobish thing to do
-I'm just saying, Gohan's chance for a normal life was kinda screwed at that point. Goku didn't even seem to care about Gohan having a normal life. So the reasoning for not mentioning the HTC before is weak
-um, WRONG. Goku saved Gohan's ass by teleporting Cell's exploding form out of there, something Gohan could not have done. Goku thought Gohan was currently strong enough to defeat Cell. HE WAS WRONG. It took Goku's death to give Gohan enough control over his power/emotions before he could defeat Cell, and even then he required assistance from Vegeta and the others. And then Goku's confidence in the next generation is proven to be even further off when Gotenks and Mystic Gohan fail against Buu.
-no, he wasn't. Last time I checked, Buu was released while Gohan and Supreme Kai were present to witness the event. I'm talking about right after Vegeta completely shakes off Babidi's "control" over him. Gou goes SSJ3, knocks Vegeta out fast, and helps Gohan and Supreme Kai to wipe the floor with Dabura. Pretty simple, and Buu would have stayed sealed


----------



## The Sentry (May 19, 2008)

Naruto is wayyyyy shitter than Goku. How does Sasuke need saving? He killed Oro and Itachi and Naruto still wants to "save" him.....seriously Naruto should get of Sasuke's dick and read a book.


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## Zephos (May 19, 2008)

> -Gee, I dunno, Naruto MAY have something to do with the topic at hand



That's great, just rip that out of context.



> -wonderful. This isn't based on outcome, it's based on judgement during the situation. If I ran into bin Laden and let him walk free, and then later he's running  a charity organization, guess what? Letting him walk free at the time was still a massively noobish thing to do



Evidently it's not given that he ended up starting a charity.



> -I'm just saying, Gohan's chance for a normal life was kinda screwed at that point. Goku didn't even seem to care about Gohan having a normal life. So the reasoning for not mentioning the HTC before is weak



It's not a normal life problem. It's staying in a blank void for a whole year which can potentially drive someone crazy.



> -um, WRONG. Goku saved Gohan's ass by teleporting Cell's exploding form out of there, something Gohan could not have done.



Cell's self destruction thing ahd nothing to do with fighting him one on one.



> Goku thought Gohan was currently strong enough to defeat Cell. HE WAS WRONG.



SSJ2 Gohan would have muredered Cell if he hadn't drawn the fight out.
Gohan had the potential to be SSJ2, Goku didn't at the time. Gohan had better chances than Goku at winning.

Inarguable.



> It took Goku's death to give Gohan enough control over his power/emotions before he could defeat Cell,



Gohan was entirely capable of beating Cell prior to that. He basically did. That's why Cell self destructed. Becuase he was fucked against Gohan.



> and even then he required assistance from Vegeta and the others.



He got a brief moment of assistence from only Vegeta, who only distracted Cell. Gohan wasn't at full capacity either, since he took that hit saving Vegeta. This was alos a much stronger Cell than the one priot to the self destruct.



> And then Goku's confidence in the next generation is proven to be even further off when Gotenks and Mystic Gohan fail against Buu.



They were incredibly powerful and put up good fights.
His confidence was entirely founded.



> -no, he wasn't. Last time I checked, Buu was released while Gohan and Supreme Kai were present to witness the event. I'm talking about right after Vegeta completely shakes off Babidi's "control" over him. Gou goes SSJ3, knocks Vegeta out fast, and helps Gohan and Supreme Kai to wipe the floor with Dabura. Pretty simple, and Buu would have stayed sealed



Going SSj3 would guarentee Boo being released. That would be an insane amount of energy being collected.


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## Stan Lee (May 20, 2008)

I fucking hate Goku he is overrated SMP would shitstomp him and all of Dragon ball anyday so say Naruto is better as a main character even though SMP would own Naruto as well.

EDIT: I don't hate him as a matter of fact I use to like him very much until I heard Goku could solo Marvel and DC from a bunch of phanboiz which lead to my dislike of him. But seriously who would be the better main character I say draw because they both never give up.


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## -ThanatosX- (May 20, 2008)

Superman Prime said:


> I fucking hate Goku he is overrated SMP would shitstomp him and all of Dragon ball anyday so say Naruto is better as a main character even though SMP would own Naruto as well.
> 
> EDIT: I don't hate him as a matter of fact I use to like him very much *until I heard Goku could solo Marvel and DC* from a bunch of phanboiz which lead to my dislike of him. But seriously who would be the better main character I say draw because they both never give up.



It is true

I like Goku a lot more than Naruto because Goku's nostalgy and he owns Naruto any day of the week.


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## anime_master2005 (May 20, 2008)

Well considering Kishi used so many ideas and character concept ideas from Akira for "inspiration" I'd have to go with Goku. Even though Naruto has this goal to become Hokage and rescue Sasuke, Goku has a goal to save the world, which is so much more selfless lol. I'll give Kishi credit on Sakura though, although she seems an odd bit like Bulma/Android 18, but w/e.

In the end:





Goku because:

he can change his hair colour without it turning orange


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## Masaki (May 20, 2008)

Considering how Goku tends to win and actually tends to be right in serious situations, he wins.

Now Goku vs Luffy is a good argument.


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## Yoburi (May 20, 2008)

anime_master2005 said:


> Well considering Kishi used so many ideas and character concept ideas from Akira for "inspiration" I'd have to go with Goku. Even though Naruto has this goal to become Hokage and rescue Sasuke, Goku has a goal to save the world, which is so much more selfless lol. I'll give Kishi credit on Sakura though, although she seems an odd bit like Bulma/Android 18, but w/e.



Goku goal is to fight the best and win he wants to be on TOP not save the shit world he alwasy leave that to the dragon balls, just remember when Trunks ask Vegeta to help Goku fight Cell and Vegeta said _"he doesn't fight to save Earth or the Humans and remeber this Trunks!" __"We are going to lose this fight"_

This proves Goku goal is to train and have a perfect fight he even train Oob just to fight him again when DBZ end.

Naruto goal is a joke became Hokage is paper work and save Sasuke is just a big waste of time, HELL Hokage=Kami-sama and Sasuke=Vegeta and Goku could have became Kami-sama when he wants and he isn't retard to save Vegeta from Freeza he just dig a grave for him and put the bastard there.


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## Hiruzen (May 20, 2008)

I like Naruto better as the main character.


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## Axl Low (May 20, 2008)

Never read DBZ but Goku is a better Main than naruto by far.


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## Stan Lee (May 20, 2008)

Masaki said:


> Considering how Goku tends to win and actually tends to be right in serious situations, he wins.
> 
> Now Goku vs Luffy is a good argument.



Cell and Buu saga......


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## Dark Evangel (May 20, 2008)

Where the hell is Phenomenol when you need him?


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## Sylar (May 21, 2008)

Superman Prime said:


> Cell and Buu saga......



Goku helped Gohan beat Cell.

Goku beat Buu.

Whats your point?


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## Fang (May 21, 2008)

Sylar said:


> Goku helped Gohan beat Cell.



Goku showed Gohan that he didn't need help to beat Cell. 



> Goku beat Buu.
> 
> Whats your point?



Anyways, Goku as a child was murdering Red Ribbon Army soldiers and officers and later changed his ways like Zephos says.

So yeah, Goku > Naruto.


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## Aeon (May 21, 2008)

I go with Goku.


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## MuNaZ (May 21, 2008)

naruto is no longer the main character... 

goku by far really....


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## Stan Lee (May 21, 2008)

Sylar said:


> Goku helped Gohan beat Cell.



True and Vegeta also helped.



> Goku beat Buu.
> 
> Whats your point?



With help and somebody said that Goku tends to be always right when he said that the spirit would work on Frieza I should have added Frieza saga.



The Sentry said:


> Naruto is wayyyyy shitter than Goku. How does Sasuke need saving? He killed Oro and Itachi and Naruto still wants to "save" him.....seriously Naruto should get of Sasuke's dick and read a book.



Due to his promise to Sakura he is trying to keep like Goku kept his promise with Chi Chi.



Mirai Gohan said:


> Anyways, Goku as a child was murdering Red Ribbon Army soldiers and officers and later changed his ways like Zephos says.
> 
> So yeah, Goku > Naruto.



Naruto has been chargeing throw the story just look at the beginning of part 2(well before he got shitstomped) and after his training with Kakashi doing what he couldn't do as well as defeating Kakuzu I mean Naruto was a fucking brat at the start of the series.



MuNaZ said:


> naruto is no longer the main character...
> 
> goku by far really....



Cheah Kishi been more focused on Sasuke lately but in the second part of dragon ball Gohan seems more like the main character.


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## Jotun (May 21, 2008)

I like Naruto, but I like Goku more 

*Goku*


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## Doom85 (May 21, 2008)

Superman Prime said:


> Cheah Kishi been more focused on Sasuke lately but in the second part of dragon ball Gohan seems more like the main character.



Yeah, but then Buu Saga came around and suddenly Goku was all, "you know what I said about Gohan being the new hero? Screw that, I'll come back to life in a random way and be the main hero again." Dammit Goku, you just don't know when to pass on the torch, do you?!

And say what you will about Kishi's so-called Uchiha fetish, but it doesn't reek as bad as Toriyama's Saiyan love:

Krillin: Remember when we mattered? When we contributed? Those were good times. Now we just hang around cheering for the Saiyans. I feel about as useless as Tea and Tristan from Yu-Gi-Oh.
Yamcha: I know what you mean. I mean, good grief, you got pwned by someone's SPIT. That's just cruel. Weren't you like one of the most integral characters for a long time? What happened?
Krillin: Toriyama read a few Superman comics, and BAM!, Goku's an alien. That's what happened.
Piccolo: Hey, don't remind me about that humiliating spit thing. And know look at me. I go from one of the stronger fighters to these brats' babysitter. I mean, geez Toriyama, you couldn't think of a way to make me a Super Namek 2?
Chiaotzu: I'd say something, but Toriyama kinda forgot I existed.
Tien: Damn, aside from my occasional kick-ass entrance (even if I get pwned sometime afterwards), I haven't done anything either.

Not that I really care, I love DBZ (minus Buu Saga) and especially Dragonball. What I don't like is people yelling at Kishi for focusing on certain characters more when Toriyama did the same damn thing.


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## Stan Lee (May 21, 2008)

Doom85 said:


> Yeah, but then Buu Saga came around and suddenly Goku was all, "you know what I said about Gohan being the new hero? Screw that, I'll come back to life in a random way and be the main hero again." Dammit Goku, you just don't know when to pass on the torch, do you?!



Gohan was originally supposed to kill Buu but negative fan reaction made Akira Toriyama put Goku and Vegeta back in the spotlight from what I heard. I mean look at Gohan at the beginning of Z plus he was the first to go ssj2 and as well as the most powerful non fused character at the end of the series.



> Not that I really care, I love DBZ (minus Buu Saga) and especially Dragonball. What I don't like is people yelling at Kishi for focusing on certain characters more when Toriyama did the same damn thing.



Pretty much.


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## Gary (May 21, 2008)

Superman Prime said:


> Gohan was originally supposed to kill Buu but negative fan reaction made Akira Toriyama put Goku and Vegeta back in the spotlight from what I heard. I mean look at Gohan at the beginning of Z plus he was the first to go ssj2 and as well as the most powerful non fused character at the end of the series.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much.



QFT    yeah and i also heard that >_>


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## Yoburi (May 21, 2008)

Gohan voice suck too i mean the guy talk like a damn kid why they didn't change his voice.


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## Sasuke (May 21, 2008)

Naruto is a terrible main character.

Goku stomps.


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## Aruarian (May 21, 2008)

But unlike Sasuke, Vegeta was actually an interesting character made of win.


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## Stan Lee (May 22, 2008)

Yoburi said:


> Gohan voice suck too i mean the guy talk like a damn kid why they didn't change his voice.



Gohan was a kid for most of the series thats why and they never bother changeing Goku's either.


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## cozapple (Jun 29, 2008)

BOTH AWESOME CHARACTERS!
mann i love them both, too hard!


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## Shoddragon (Jun 29, 2008)

Anthony J. Crowley said:


> But unlike Sasuke, Vegeta was actually an interesting character made of win.



yea vegeta was never really emo. nor did he ever look like a girl save for a small "pink shirt: incident.


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## Mr Odlaw (Jun 29, 2008)

> Naruto or Goku --who's the better main character?


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## Sasuke (Jun 29, 2008)

They both suck.

Sasuke & Vegeta FTW.


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## Mr Odlaw (Jun 29, 2008)

Sasuke said:


> They both suck.
> 
> Sasuke & Vegeta FTW.


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## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Jun 29, 2008)

Sasuke said:


> They both suck.
> 
> Sasuke & Vegeta FTW.



NEVER put that little chicken shit Uchiha in the same sentence as Vegeta again


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## Eleven (Jul 1, 2008)

Naruto is a poor man's goku clone.


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## Fang (Jul 1, 2008)

Hahaha, Sasuke, a good secondary/anti-hero? Not at all.

He's even worse then Hiei from YYH.


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## mystictrunks (Jul 1, 2008)

Sasuke said:


> They both suck.
> 
> Sasuke & Vegeta FTW.



SMH

Vegeta was the king of taking L's "Even if you transform you'll be no match" and then he gets his ass beat in the best way possible. 

Sasuke's life is one big Lose "I only accomplished my life goal cause my brother got AIDs from fucking them dirty hoes"

Vegeta > Yamcha = Sasuke


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