# Itachi's true standing



## Matty (May 22, 2016)

He is the gateway to the god tier. Tsukuyomi, totsuka, yata shield, amaterasu, susanoo.... Extreme intelligence and tactical prowess, 3T genjutsu and also his quick movements, I'd consider him to be >= to Minato

Both are 2 of my favorites but I can't see Itachi's arsenal being beaten by Minato

Just saying 

Where do you rank him? I have him just below Nagato when healthy


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## Matty (May 22, 2016)

Although with the right matchup he can be defeated.... Maybe someone immune to genjutsu and a poison specialist 

But not a guaranteed win


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2016)

Minato has no genjutsu defense, he has no chance.

Nagato was butchered by Itachi multiple times inside one chapter.

Itachi is a High Kage on paper with his abilities (inferior to Nagato.) But similar to Shikamaru or Batman, Itachi will bat *way* above his league because of his intellect, will of fire, and the author's extreme affection for him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Matty (May 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Minato has no genjutsu defense, he has no chance.


Stop. He has a chance, but I would imagine Itachi wins.

Although we would disagree on who has a better chance against Itachi: Deidara or Sasori


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2016)

Whatever the chance of a person having a random brain aneurysm that kills them, that's Itachi's chance of losing to him.

Genjutsu defense is the only real requirement of fighting Itachi. If you have that, you at least have a small chance, because Itachi cn.

That's why Deidara spent years developing an anti-genjutsu mechanism for Itachi, as well as the c4 jutsu Obito called terrifying. The extremeness of those measures after fighting a young teenage base Itachi should put Itachi's power in perspective. Minato, walking in with no knowledge, and no genjutsu defense, with just his one Hiraishin trick, is going to get annihilated.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (May 22, 2016)

Minato will be beaten if he looks throught on Itachi's eyes , but the manga showed us that we can counter this with clone tactics . In other hands , Itachi has to be careful about the Kunais spread all over the battlefield plus Minato Hiraishin level 2 and 3 and his clones . They are both extremely intelligent , so the fight would be pretty close . But I see Itachi one cut below him because MS techniques are quite exhaustive . Seeing Itachi winning the fight is rather acceptable because their level are pretty close .


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## Matty (May 22, 2016)

But poison and genjutsu immunity >bombs


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2016)

Sasori has a massive weakness against dojutsu users because they can see the core of his chakra, they know exactly where to hit. Sasori also isn't a clone user like Deidara, so he relies less on trickery and more puppet or satetsu shielding. I don't see either stopping Itachi when he can just power through to the heart with Susano'o (or use a clone feint to get there.)

But yeah, Sasori likely has decent genjutsu defense, so he has a better chance than most. Deidara basically prepped his entire adulthood to take down Itachi though.


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## Matty (May 22, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato will be beaten if he looks throught on Itachi's eyes , but the manga showed us that we can counter this with clone tactics . In other hands , Itachi has to be careful about the Kunais spread all over the battlefield plus Minato Hiraishin level 2 and 3 and his clones . They are both extremely intelligent , so the fight would be pretty close . But I see Itachi one cut below him because MS techniques are quite exhaustive . Seeing Itachi winning the fight is rather acceptable because their level are pretty close .


Yes but if he has an equal playing field (no prep) then Itachi should win.

Marked kunai is like saying that Minato is liable to fall for at least one genjutsu.

Its bullshit


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## Matty (May 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Sasori has a massive weakness against dojutsu users because they can see the core of his chakra, they know exactly where to hit. Sasori also isn't a clone user like Deidara, who managed to feint Sasuke with a c4 clone and nearly kill him.



Just because they can see where his chakra is centralized doesn't mean they assume his core is the spot to strike 

I'm sure konan and other shinobi have different chakra networks and if anything Sasori's should look normal since he outputs through his fingers and the like


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## hbcaptain (May 22, 2016)

The perparations aren't that long , Minato can spread the Kunais in one fragment on second without lookingo in Itachi's eyes . 
If Minato knows that Itachi is an Uchiha , just judging by his presence et aura , he will be pretty caucious , especially about Genjutsu .

But , if he doesn't know I would say Itachi wins because , we naturally look on the oppenents eyes .


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2016)

Matty said:


> Just because they can see where his chakra is centralized doesn't mean they assume his core is the spot to strike
> 
> I'm sure konan and other shinobi have different chakra networks and if anything Sasori's should look normal since he outputs through his fingers and the like



I'm pretty sure any dojutsu user would know exactly where to strike given the core is the sole source of chakra in the giant puppet body, and provided they had the jutsu capable of getting there (Kamui, Amaterasu, Susano'o,) could take Sasori down about as straightforwardly as Itachi took down Orochimaru.

Sasori's trick of being human works very well on most people, just not people with chakra vision. They see his weak spot pretty clearly. It's basically like the glowing weak spot in a video game boss.

And even then, only the elite-most dojutsu users can actually get to the core to hurt him. We're talking War Kakashi, Itachi, Nagato, and even MS Obito would have some difficulty due to his eye's limited offensive power (great defensive power though.)


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## Bonly (May 22, 2016)

I rank Itachi pretty high between his feats and his hype. I got him near the top of High Kage lvl tied with Minato with only Pain and Danzo being above him along with the God+Top tier characters


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2016)

Danzo should be god tier if you think Koto puts High Kages down.


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## Matty (May 22, 2016)

Itachi should be above Danzo


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## Matty (May 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I'm pretty sure any dojutsu user would know exactly where to strike given the core is the sole source of chakra in the giant puppet body, and provided they had the jutsu capable of getting there (Kamui, Amaterasu, Susano'o,) could take Sasori down about as straightforwardly as Itachi took down Orochimaru.
> 
> Sasori's trick of being human works very well on most people, just not people with chakra vision. They see his weak spot pretty clearly. It's basically like the glowing weak spot in a video game boss.
> 
> And even then, only the elite-most dojutsu users can actually get to the core to hurt him. We're talking War Kakashi, Itachi, Nagato, and even MS Obito would have some difficulty due to his eye's limited offensive power (great defensive power though.)


Can you provide proof? I haven't seen any chakea network on Sasori, you would imagine a guy who solod a country and has a 5 in intelligence might have the intuition to hide his chakea network  

Especially when he uses chakra to all normal areas


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## Bonly (May 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Danzo should be god tier if you think Koto puts High Kages down.



So because Koto could put down a High Kage lvl you think that should place Danzo on the lvl of a Juubi Jin?


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2016)

Bonly said:


> So because Koto could put down a High Kage lvl you think that should place Danzo on the lvl of a Juubi Jin?



VotE Hashirama/Madara would be the cut-off to god tier for me. The guys that casually rearrange mountain ranges, the next level up from High Kage like Minato, Tobirama, Itachi, Nagato, etc. So they'd be low god tier, and people clearly stronger (Jubi Jins) would be Mid to High God Tier I guess.

And yeah, if Danzo can casually discard High Kage (Itachi, Minato, Tobirama) with Koto or arguably even stronger ninja (Hashirama?) then he should be in a higher tier, wherever you draw the line. I don't think he'd beat Itachi with Koto personally.


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## Garcher (May 22, 2016)

Will Minato fanboys ever be able to face the truth?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

According to these manga statements  :

'' you are even denser than itachi , obito ''

'' you're overestimating me , sasuke ''

'' in the end , i only failed ''

Itachi is stupid , and overrated , and a failure

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2016)

Black Zetsu also called Itachi completely invincible (and Obito's not exactly dumb,) and the two other statements were made by Itachi. Him being humble adds to the greatness.


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## Icegaze (May 22, 2016)

Eurgh another thread comparing these 2 characters again 
Well I would say minato is a lot less hax however his hax can be kept up indefinitely 
Itachi is hax for like 5 mins


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Black Zetsu also called Itachi completely invincible (and Obito's not exactly dumb,) and the two other statements were made by Itachi. Him being humble adds to the greatness.


you are wrong for the simple fact that :
- zetsu actually made it clear that itachi is dense , by comparing his density to obito's
- his statement about him being '' invincible '' is just for hype , when we know that itachi is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from invincible
- his statements '' i thought i could do anything '' '' i thought i was unstopable '' means he's the furthest thing from humble
- his statement about being a failure is actually backed by the manga , because he failed :
- as a big brother
- he failed to change sasuke's vew
- he failed to stop obito/tobi/madara whatever he was called at that time
- he failed as a secret agent when he was working with the akatsuki and delivered *jack-shit* to konohagakure
- *kakuzu* and *hidan* were going to invate konohagakure after they killed asuma , did he stoped them ? no
- he caused *the death* of many jinchuurikis including *gaara* by helping the akatsuki extracting the bijuu out of them
- so no , even when he was alive , konoha wasn't '' *off limits* '' for the akatsuki
- he failed to stop sasuke who clearly decleared infront of him that he is going to *destroy konohagakure*

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (May 22, 2016)

Itachi ranks close to Jiraiya, which is near the top, but not quite the gateway to God-Tier, I'd say that distinction is more for characters like Nagato, Kabuto, Minato, Prime-Hanzo, Danzo and maybe Prime-Hiruzen. Or to put it another way:

Nagato / Prime-Hanzo / Kabuto / Minato / Danzo / Prime-Hiruzen (MAYBE)

Tobirama / Jiraiya / Itachi / Killer-B / Gengetsu / Mu

Orochimaru / Tsunade / Old-Hiruzen (MAYBE) / Onoki

Etc...

Hiruzen kind of depends to what degree we buy his hype.

And no I wouldn't consider the gaps between each grouping to warrant an entirely different Tier, Itachi is still close to Minato in strength for instance, I just consider Minato better as an overall Ninja, and the same applies to the others above him. Same with the characters bellow Itachi.


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

ℜai said:


> - Itachi
> 
> - the rest

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (May 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> VotE Hashirama/Madara would be the cut-off to god tier for me. The guys that casually rearrange mountain ranges, the next level up from High Kage like Minato, Tobirama, Itachi, Nagato, etc. So they'd be low god tier, and people clearly stronger (Jubi Jins) would be Mid to High God Tier I guess.



That's why it seems weird to me, for me after high Kage I have the Top tier which holds people like VoTE Madara and Hashi rather then put them on the lvl of a God tier


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

Sometimes i wonder why doesn't people rank orochimaru and kabuto , two people who are capable of using powerful edo tensei above VOTE madara and hashirama 

are we gonna keep ignoring the inevitable fact that Edo tensei is a part of their arsenal ?


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## Matty (May 22, 2016)

I'm still not quite getting what makes Hanzo a gateway to the god tier when Itachi isn't. I was drunk as hell when I made this last night, but my stance is the same.

To me the top if the non god tiers are Minati and Itachi and Nagato is, himself, borderline god tier if he was hypothetically prime and mobile. Even while immobile he is close to god tier


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## Equilibrium139 (May 22, 2016)

I always wonder how people use the panel where Itachi supposedly said that he's weaker than Jiraiya to bring Itachi down in the rankings. For starters, he doesn't even say that he's weaker. All he says is that if him and Jiraiya fought then they would both die. I don't understand how people interpret that to mean "I'm weaker than Jiraiya". And also, you have to consider the context in which this statement was said. Not only was this after Itachi used two Tsukuyomis and Amaterasu, he also had no reason to want to fight Jiraiya. As much as people think that that's bs, it's still the truth. And also, the story progresses and things change. Bringing a panel from part 1 to invalidate a panel from later on in the story makes absolutely no sense at all. Some of you guys don't have a hard time calling Itachi for bs when he stated that he would surpass Madara, but when it comes to him supposedly saying that he's weaker than Jiraiya, all of a sudden he's a truthful character and we can trust him on this one. I just don't get it, you're contradicting yourselves.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## Matty (May 22, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> I always wonder how people use the panel where Itachi supposedly said that he's weaker than Jiraiya to bring Itachi down in the rankings. For starters, he doesn't even say that he's weaker. All he says is that if him and Jiraiya fought then they would both die. I don't understand how people interpret that to mean "I'm weaker than Jiraiya". And also, you have to consider the context in which this statement was said. Not only was this after Itachi used two Tsukuyomis and Amaterasu, he also had no reason to want to fight Jiraiya. As much as people think that that's bs, it's still the truth. And also, the story progresses and things change. Bringing a panel from part 1 to invalidate a panel from later on in the story makes absolutely no sense at all. Some of you guys don't have a hard time calling Itachi for bs when he stated that he would surpass Madara, but when it comes to him supposedly saying that he's weaker than Jiraiya, all of a sudden he's a truthful character and we can trust him on this one. I just don't get it, you're contradicting yourselves.



That's how everyone is. They agree with the manga at certain points that allow their view to be validated until something comes along that they don't like


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## Sapherosth (May 22, 2016)

Matty said:


> I'm still not quite getting what makes Hanzo a gateway to the god tier when Itachi isn't. I was drunk as hell when I made this last night, but my stance is the same.
> 
> To me the top if the non god tiers are Minati and Itachi and Nagato is, himself, borderline god tier if he was hypothetically prime and mobile. Even while immobile he is close to god tier





The only reason Danzo was anywhere near God tier is because of Koto..... if that's the case, Shisui himself should be God-tier...and so is Itachi who has access to Koto as well. Until he gave it to Naruto.


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## Matty (May 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The only reason Danzo was anywhere near God tier is because of Koto..... if that's the case, Shisui himself should be God-tier...and so is Itachi who has access to Koto as well. Until he gave it to Naruto.



Hanzo my dude, not danzo. But I do agree with you on the topic of Danzo being high tier


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## Garcher (May 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> - his statement about him being '' invincible '' is just for hype , when *we know that itachi is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from invincible*



How? Was Itachi ever defeated in a battle he actually tried to win and didn't loose on purpose?

You are just biased and hate Itachi, we get it

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Turrin (May 22, 2016)

Matty said:


> I'm still not quite getting what makes Hanzo a gateway to the god tier when Itachi isn't. I was drunk as hell when I made this last night, but my stance is the same.
> 
> To me the top if the non god tiers are Minati and Itachi and Nagato is, himself, borderline god tier if he was hypothetically prime and mobile. Even while immobile he is close to god tier


Prime-Hanzo was considered unbeatable by a guy that Itachi considered to be >= to him and Nagato believed had Hanzo not become Rusty he wouldn't have lost to Pain-Rikudo, who beat Jiraiya whose again >= Itachi by his own admission. 

Also most people consider Pain and Minato > Itachi as well, so even removing Jiraiya from the equation, the fact that Jiraiya thought no one could beat Hanzo, despite being Minato's Sensei and thus knowing Minato's capabilities well would suggest Hanzo >= Minato > Itachi for most people; like wise Nagato who clearly knows Pain-Rikudo's power well believing he may not have won against Prime-Hanzo also suggests Prime-Hanzo >= Pain-Rikudo > Itachi. And the fact that Jiraiya was shocked Akatsuki Leader could beat Hanozo, despite acknowledging the organization contained shinobi more troublesome than Orochimaru (which seems to be speaking towards Itachi directly as at the time he was the only Akatsuki member stated to be > Oro), seems to imply Hanzo > Shinobi more troublesome than Oro (Itachi) > Oro. Than there is the fact that Hanzo was able to defy Edo-Tensei's commands in a way that no other Tensei could aside from God-Tiers like Madara and Hashirama.


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## Rai (May 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


>



People still posting this shit.

Itachi was pretending and lying.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Empathy (May 22, 2016)

Among high Kages: (my opinion) he's stronger than Gengetsu, Muu, Jiraiya, SM Naruto, MS Sasuke, Killer Bee, Tobirama, MS Obito (maybe). He's weaker than Minato, EMS Sasuke (Kabuto fight), KCM Naruto, Danzo, Pain.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 22, 2016)

Did you really have to make another Itachi wank thread? He is nowhere near God-tier, he is only above the Sannin when he's healthy. Putting him on or above Minato's level is foolish and reaks of fanboyism and completely disregards the actual portrayal of both characters. There are several characters who are capable of defeating him.


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

I don't get it , why it's a bad thing if itachi is on the level of the sannin ?????  

those guys are really underestiated here


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## Isaiah13000 (May 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I don't get it , why it's a bad thing if itachi is on the level of the sannin ?????
> 
> those guys are really underestiated here


Cause then he isn't as godly as people think he is, and the Sannin are viewed in such a low light by a lot of people. Regardless they do have a point against you. Everything Itachi said prior to his death was a lie and he was doing whatever he could to help out the Leaf and Sasuke. The fact that Kishi had him defeat Orochimaru twice, have Orochimaru state he is inferior, and have even Obito admit inferiority to him would indicate that he was intended to be above the Sannin.


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## S (May 22, 2016)

Gateway to the god tier...seriously?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kai (May 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Minato has no genjutsu defense, he has no chance.


Extreme speed is a counter for his visual genjutsu. Minato is (was) for generations the fastest man in the world.



Isaiah13000 said:


> and have even Obito admit inferiority to him would indicate that he was intended to be above the Sannin.


That never happened buddy.


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## Clowe (May 22, 2016)

Itachi's standing is being a high kage and the third strongest in akatsuki after Obito and Pain.


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## Mithos (May 22, 2016)

Itachi is, at best, slightly above the Sannin.


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## Icegaze (May 22, 2016)

for me forgetting the characters entirely since there is so much hate depending on what fan base you have

I believe his 3 MS jutsu is simply more hax than anything the sannin have for example

however their jutsu is simply more readily available and bar tsunade they are simply more versatile

itachi jutsu are very well suited to beat orochimaru for example

yamata, regen ET. all trolled by totsuka or genjutsu

however I feel jiriaya jutsu are actually good counters to itachi

frog song, frog call, SM sensing

while itachi jutsu are very good against tsunade jutsu: regen, katsuyu , super strength can all be trolled with Susanoo and totsuka

so in all fairness simply based on quicker access to his MS jutus I would put him slightly above them

so in league with minato and all that

however some might as well claim he is konohamaru level to help them sleep


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## Icegaze (May 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Sometimes i wonder why doesn't people rank orochimaru and kabuto , two people who are capable of using powerful edo tensei above VOTE madara and hashirama
> 
> are we gonna keep ignoring the inevitable fact that Edo tensei is a part of their arsenal ?



because ET can be simply stopped depending on who they are fighting though

oro with ET would still never beat itachi

considering once they are summoned itachi stabs them with totsuka and trolls before they can become a problem


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Cause then he isn't as godly as people think he is, and the Sannin are viewed in such a low light by a lot of people. Regardless they do have a point against you. Everything Itachi said prior to his death was a lie and he was doing whatever he could to help out the Leaf and Sasuke. The fact that Kishi had him defeat Orochimaru twice, have Orochimaru state he is inferior, and have even Obito admit inferiority to him would indicate that he was intended to be above the Sannin.


The three sannin are really underrated around here 
i even saw some idiots putting them all together below itachi 
anyway , we have itachi admitting inferiority to jiraiya ,alone , and no , it wasn't a lie , because :
- it was backed up by kisame's statement
- it was backed up by feats and even hype , like pain and juubi jin obito admitting jiraiya's strenght

itachi's fans always like to talk about how plot changes , plot changes 
itachi is stronger , itachi is stronger 

well , change has *indeed happened* , and no , itachi isn't stronger 
in part II , jiraiya , whom itachi's fans always didn't believe was stronger was taking on pain rikudou , someone who :
*- jiraiya had absolutly no knowledge about
- had no back up 
- faught hi in his own teratory 
- has a higher standing in the akatsuki than itachi
- the leader of the most dangerous organization in history
- the 3rd rikudou
- the weilder of the strongest doujutsu in the world 
- someone who thought he was a '' god '' *

and yet jiraiya took him on , and pushed himto his limits , and delivered a full pain body '' *NINGENDO*'s body '' and a very good amount of informations to konoha 

even pain praised him and said : 
'' *if jiraiya sensei knew everything about us , the outcomes of this battle would've been different* ''

again , this is coming from a *cocky asshole who thinks he's a '' god ''* 

and we all know how pain is >>>>>>> itachi in every shape , way , and form 

now back to plot changes 

itachi took on and defeated a far weaker orochimaru than the one who was represinted later in the manga 

but itachi's fans , kishi gave'em and *inch* , and they went a *mile* 
the plot did changed , and orochimaru surrpassed itachi , when he :
*- got a stronger body
- got hashirama's cells 
- got a powerful edo tensei*
in fact a stronger edo tensei than the one kabuto used , and even that , it was enuff to overwhelm the allied shinobi forces army , if it wasn't for the help of naruto 
are we gonna keep saying itachi is above the sannin now ??? 

and even in his jobe as a secret agent for konoha , itachi pale in comparison to jiraiya 
- unlike jiraiya , itachi worked 10 years with the akatsuki , and no one was after him , yet he delivered *jack-shit* to konohagakure 
- He did not give any information about *the number of the Akatsuki, their ability, their progress, their plan or anything whatsoever.*
- he helped killing many jinchuurikis including *the kazekage gaara* , by helping the akatsuki extract the bijuu out of them 
- kakauzu and hidan killed assuma , and were going to *assult konohagakure* , yet he didn't do or say anything , so konohagakure wasn't '' *off limits* '' when he was alive and all that BS 
- regardless of those secrets obito was afraid itachi would know about , it doesn't change the fact that he did jack shit to *stop or delay *his plans 
- We have not seen any interaction between them for example where itachi was threatening Obito or even trying
to stop or say anything whatsoever
- in their fight against kabuto , he knew very well about sasuke's *intentions about destroying konohagakure* , yet he did jack shit to stop him or even to change his vews
- he was the soul reason , his brother went from konoha's *number one prodogy* and a very *promising talent* 
to an *international criminal* , all for the sake of LOL making his brother stronger 
he even told him to kill his best friend 
hell , naruto was a *better brother* to sasuke , than itachi ever was 

just like sasuke was a *better friend* to naruto than *konoha 11* '' *excluding hinata* '' ever were 

so............even as an agent that work for konohagakure , he *lost* to jiraiya  
also itachi's fans likes to say '' *itachi was laying , and he wanted to help konoha , that's why he escaped from jiraiya he and kisame bla bla bla* ''
well , jiraiya is also a secret agent , maybe he knew that itachi was a *double agent* 
and maybe he let him escape with kisame , no ???


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## Saru (May 22, 2016)

I've always seen Itachi as about as strong as Minato. So the gap between Minato and the Sannin is about as sizable as the gap between Itachi and Sannin IMO. Significant, but not enormous. I would say that all of these characters are within the same plane of power, for example:

Nagato
Nagato's Six Paths of Pain
Danzo
Shisui
Minato / Itachi
Tobirama 
Obito (Mangekyou Sharingan)
Killer B / Naruto (KCM)

I don't think that the Sannin can measure up to any of these characters. Itachi specifically was said to be invincible, which is more praise than any of the Sannin have ever received in the manga. Actually, the only person on the list above who has manga statements on par with that are Minato and Nagato. Tobirama wasn't said to be invincible. Killer B and KCM Naruto weren't said to be invincible. Itachi was clearly _*portrayed*_ to be a notch above such characters IMO, so I can't definitively place him beneath Minato for that reason. Itachi's hype is at worst equal to Minato's. Can Itachi backup that hype feat-wise? Yes and no. Itachi has the tools to in theory place him on the same level as the aforementioned characters, but we never saw him use those tools to their full potential because _Itachi never went all-out_. Itachi never had to deal with Bijuudama, Izanagi, the Rinnegan, etc. with his own abilities due to circumstance. The same cannot be said for many of these other characters. So, I can understand why people peg Itachi's strength as they do.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Eliyua23 (May 22, 2016)

Itachi is on the level of the Sannin, Tobirama, Edo Kages , High Kage ninja but he is not the gateway , Minato serves as that IMO maybe even Nagato or Kabuto seeing as how their feats trump Itachi's


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't think that the Sannin can measure up to any of these characters.


orochimaru with edo nagato edo tobirama edo minato edo hanzo edo deidara edo hirizen edo A the 3ed 

i would luuuuuuuuve to see what '' invincible itachi '' can do against this orochimaru


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

I naturally see Itachi above Pain who was considerably above any of the Sannin and Pain was most certainly above Minato. I actually see Itachi beating SM Kabuto more times than not, but ultimately loses to Rinnegan Obito and Nagato who are at the very high end of High Kage. 

 While Itachi can be more dangerous than Tobirama, Tobirama does beat Itachi as well.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I naturally see Itachi above Pain


 good one

Reactions: Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> good one



Thanks. He didn't seem pressured at all when he blindsided Nagato and one-shotted him with his Totsuka blade. 

 Even Itachi was cracking jokes when Nagato used Chibaku Tensei.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ishmael (May 22, 2016)

Hmmmm


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Thanks. He didn't seem pressured at all when he blindsided Nagato and one-shotted him with his Totsuka blade.
> 
> Even Itachi was cracking jokes when Nagato used Chibaku Tensei.


 what the fuck ?? , laugh out looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooud
using a 3 on 1 fight to try to prove something you silly m8 ??? 
did you forget that kabuto was controlling him and turn off his sensing ???
did you forget that nagato wanted to get sealed in the first place ???
did forget that itachi had two fucking jinchuurikis of the 2 strongest bijuu by his side ???
in a 1 on 1 fight nagato would literally whipe the floor with itachi and you know it 
if itachi was making jokes , naruto was using a sexy jutsu against freaking kaguya


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> what the fuck ?? , laugh out looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooud
> using a 3 on 1 fight to try to prove something you silly m8 ???
> did you forget that kabuto was controlling him and turn off his sensing ???
> did you forget that nagato wanted to get sealed in the first place ???
> did forget that itachi had two fucking jinchuurikis of the 2 strongest bijuu by his side ???



Itachi countered Shared Vision on his own and Nagato couldn't even react to losing his extra field of vision before Itachi blindsided him. Clearly, Itachi was so fast. Quite frankly, Naruto and Bee was powerless, didn't do shit, yet Itachi steps in and the battle's over in a few panels.

I wonder why that is? 



Kabuto turning off sensing. Right, he attempted to kill them, but turned off something that would be beneficial in combat. That's a good one. 

Lmao, Nagato wanted to be sealed yet he was mind-controlled by Kabuto that didn't want that. Nice logic. 



> in a 1 on 1 fight nagato would literally whipe the floor with itachi and you know it



Then why did Itachi have no problem countering his abilities? 



> if itachi was making jokes , naruto was using a sexy jutsu against freaking kaguya



Itachi wasn't making jokes yet Naruto tells him to stop making jokes:



Yes, he was making jokes. Your stupid example doesn't refute that.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Ishmael (May 22, 2016)

When kabuto made nagato used chibaku tensei bee , naruto and itachi Used their strongest long range jutsus to destroy it and when nagato got distracted by it being destroyed itachi decided to stab him with the Sword of totsuka also before the fight happened you could kind of tell that nagato didnt want to fight naruto and you could tell he wanted naruto to defeat him also during the battle before kabuto suppressed his personality  nagato was helping out bee and naruto telling them how to counter his summons and jutsus also when nagato was busy(not really worried about itachi) removing narutos soul and preparing to kill bee,  itachi interrupted with Susano'o


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi countered Shared Vision on his own and Nagato couldn't even react to losing his extra field of vision before Itachi blindsided him. Clearly, Itachi was so fast. Quite frankly, Naruto and Bee was powerless, didn't do shit, yet Itachi steps in and the battle's over in a few panels.
> 
> I wonder why that is?
> 
> ...


LMFAO , your arguments could not be any dumber 
nagato was being controlled by kabuto , who couldn't even use his abilities well
he could barely remember that nagato had '' that moon making jutsu ''
- rather your lack of reading comprehension 
did you forget that nagato was able to sense :
- naruto and bee
- kabuto secret place
- itachi' amaterasu
all in one chapter , when he wasn't fully controlled by kabuto
yet when kabuto took full control over him , his sensing was gone , Mr smart ass 

KCM naruto and Bee did shit ? not sure what you are smoking 
without them :
- nagato would've focuse on itachi
- nagato would've whiped the floor with itachi
and itachi would've never had any distraction so he can land a hit on nagato
and itachi would've been fucked like a *fuck toy* when *chibaku tensei* came since he can't destroy it by himself 

yes nagato wanted to get sealed for the simple fact that he was telling Bee and naruto how to counter his attacks , do you not have a memory ???

i don't really know what are you trying to prove whith the whole '' itachi was cracking jokes '' thing
by if it really prove something , then naruto was also cracking jokes with kurama while facing juubi jinchuuriki abito , was he not ??
and he was also cracking jokes while facing kaguya wasn't he ???
but i fully expect you to cry more about how itachi '' LOL dealt with nagato by himself '' 
carry on , entertain me


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## Ishmael (May 22, 2016)

That is true if it wasn't for nagato itachi wouldn't have known where to find kabuto


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## Isaiah13000 (May 22, 2016)

Kai said:


> That never happened buddy.


  It's pretty simple.



cctr9 said:


> The three sannin are really underrated around here
> i even saw some idiots putting them all together below itachi
> anyway , we have itachi admitting inferiority to jiraiya ,alone , and no , it wasn't a lie , because :
> - it was backed up by kisame's statement
> ...



Hmmm, you make many good points. I'll take this post into consideration from now on.



cctr9 said:


> what the fuck ?? , laugh out looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooud
> using a 3 on 1 fight to try to prove something you silly m8 ???
> did you forget that kabuto was controlling him and turn off his sensing ???
> did you forget that nagato wanted to get sealed in the first place ???
> ...



His name is literally "Uchiha Wanker", don't waste your time arguing with him about Uchiha-related matters.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> His name is literally "Uchiha Wanker", don't waste your time arguing with him.


thanks for reminding me

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> LMFAO , your arguments could not be any dumber
> nagato was being controlled by kabuto , who couldn't even use his abilities well
> he could barely remember that nagato had '' that moon making jutsu ''



Completely baseless. Suddenly, Nagato trashing 2 Jinchuuriki with Kabuto's mind control constitutes as Nagato not using his abilities well? Look how smart you are. 


> - rather your lack of reading comprehension
> did you forget that nagato was able to sense :
> - naruto and bee
> - kabuto secret place
> ...



And Nagato was bound by Edo Tensei and Kabuto had constant awareness of what was going on. What you're even suggesting doesn't make sense.


> yet when kabuto took full control over him , his sensing was gone , Mr smart ass





Calls me a smartass and expects to believe his baseless assumptions. Please, entertain me how Kabuto wouldn't use an ability that he's aware of when it would be beneficial in combat.



> KCM naruto and Bee did shit ? not sure what you are smoking
> without them :
> - nagato would've focuse on itachi
> - nagato would've whiped the floor with itachi
> and itachi would've never had any distraction so he can land a hit on nagato



Nope. Using Shinra Tensei itself the way Kakashi did would constitute as a viable distraction to create a bushin to lure him in. Or, since Naruto and Bee wouldn't be here, instead of actually talking with them, he would've made a bunshin and let that take the bait or actually continue to Totsuka blade Nagato's ass because Nagato's ass was on the ground due to Itachi's Amaterasu. 



> and itachi would've been fucked like a *fuck toy* when *chibaku tensei* came since he can't destroy it by himself



Only thing I can agree with. Other than that, Itachi had no problem keeping up with Nagato.



> yes nagato wanted to get sealed for the simple fact that he was telling Bee and naruto how to counter his attacks , do you not have a memory ???



Not sure if you're serious, but that was before Kabuto cut off any emotional attachment Nagato had with the others, hence why he was a mindless zombie here:

Link removed

Naruto even states he's being controlled, so whatever state Nagato was before Itachi broke out of Edo Tensei isn't comparable to what state Nagato was in afterwards. Your whole argument doesn't make sense to begin with. Why would it matter whether or not Nagato wanted to be sealed when Kabuto's in control this whole time?




> i don't really know what are you trying to prove whith the whole '' itachi was cracking jokes '' thing
> by if it really prove something , then naruto was also cracking jokes with kurama while facing juubi jinchuuriki abito , was he not ??
> and he was also cracking jokes while facing kaguya wasn't he ???



Him making jokes about Chibaku Tensei means Chibaku Tensei wasn't a threat to him. You can cut the crap because none of what you say refutes the fact that Itachi was cracking jokes.



> but i fully expect you to cry more about how itachi '' LOL dealt with nagato by himself ''
> carry on , entertain me



Don't worry, I expect you to stay salty over the fact that an Uchiha one-shotted a poor Uzumaki.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ishmael (May 22, 2016)

Lol i just realized dude name is uchihawanker...


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> Lol i just realized dude name is uchihawanker...



 It's "UchihaX28". I placed "UchihaWanker" clearly on purpose, but that doesn't mean I wank the Uchihas. I've already admitted that Nagato was superior to Itachi, so I'm not denying anything.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Completely baseless. Suddenly, Nagato trashing 2 Jinchuuriki with Kabuto's mind control constitutes as Nagato not using his abilities well? Look how smart you are.
> 
> 
> And Nagato was bound by Edo Tensei and Kabuto had constant awareness of what was going on. What you're even suggesting doesn't make sense.
> ...



this has got to be my lucky day ck
we have nagato super sensing enabling him to sense , naruto , killer bee , amaterasu , and kabuto's cave 
after kabuto's contrl took over him , his sensing was gone 
can't you put 1 and 1 together ck 
awareness of what was going on ??? stop smoking that shit , it's fucking up your brain 
did you fergot that the 3rd raikage who was being controlled by kabuto got fooled by a freaking rubber ball from freaking dodai ??? 
where was kabuto's awareness of what's going on at that moment ???? 
nagato wanted to get defeated when he wasn't fully controlled by kabuto ; that's why he was :
- telling naruto and bee how to counter his attacks 
- it's also why he didn't absorbe itachi's amaterasu with preta path , instead he took the shot 

saying chibaku tensei isn't a threat to itachi confirme your brain is severely damaged , and you need to see a doctor ASAS 
and you based that on the fact that he was cracking jokes , congratufuckinglations 
i guess kaguya wasn't a threat to naruto because he was using a sexy technique against her , and LOL cracking jokes 
salty ??? why would i be salty ??? 
itachi was nagato's 24/7 bitch when he was a part of the akatsuki ??? 
he was calling him '' boss '' for god sake


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## IzayaOrihara (May 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi was sick and threw the fight on purpose. Why're you using that as an example?


I know, but he still fought seriously. You dont use techniques like Amaterasu on a little brother you want to protect.


> It wouldn't have mattered. Nagato would catch anything surrounding him at any moment thanks to Shared Vision, so whether or not he was focused on KCM Naruto and Bee is irrelevant here, not to mention that he's a sensor.


.
All wrong. They helped break CT Orb.


> Nagato was not blind. I'm not sure where you get that from, but he was immobile which wouldn't have made a difference in whether or not Itachi could counter Shared Vision.


Yes he was. There was a dust/smoke cloud after the YM/TBB/Rasenshuriken hit the CT and exploded.


> Sannin > Itachi yet Itachi defeated Orochimaru?
> 
> If anything, Jiraiya = Tsunade > Itachi > Orochimaru.


Itachi defeated a Nerfed Orochimaru and it was not in a neutral battle scenario. Prime Orochimaru in a neutral battle scenario will win against Itachi. If you don't believe me ask @HandfullofNaruto .

Stupid thing of you to say considering i can name about 10 things (or more) that prove Orochimaru > Jiraiya (they are equals in the sense they are at the same level of combat, but Orochimaru beats Jiraiya 10/10 times based on match up as a result of Sansukumi Rock Paper Scissors).

At the end of the day, Itachi is not above Pain in any way shape or form.
Rinnegan > Sharingan.
Akatsuki Leader > Errand Boy.
Pain Killed Jiraiya. Itachi (and Kisame) ran away from him.

Stop smoking weed before you come on NF.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Saru (May 22, 2016)

I think Lebron probably needs to take a timeout.


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> this has got to be my lucky day ck
> we have nagato super sensing enabling him to sense , naruto , killer bee , amaterasu , and kabuto's cave
> after kabuto's contrl took over him , his sensing was gone



His sensing wasn't gone. There are many times where a sensor couldn't perceive an attack.



> can't you put 1 and 1 together ck



You haven't proven to me how Nagato lost his sensing, so I have no reason to even believe you.


> awareness of what was going on ??? stop smoking that shit , it's fucking up your brain
> did you fergot that the 3rd raikage who was being controlled by kabuto got fooled by a freaking rubber ball from freaking dodai ???



Kabuto doesn't alter the Edo Tensei's reactions, he simply writes in a command and has the Edo Tensei follow those commands. Your example isn't applicable here because two faster ninja than Dodai could not outperform or fool Nagato at all. I fail to see how Sandaime Raikage is relevant here as Nagato is clearly above Sandaime Raikage. 



> where was kabuto's awareness of what's going on at that moment ????
> nagato wanted to get defeated when he wasn't fully controlled by kabuto ; that's why he was :
> - telling naruto and bee how to counter his attacks
> - it's also why he didn't absorbe itachi's amaterasu with preta path , instead he took the shot



*Yawn*

If Nagato's actions are being controlled by Kabuto, it makes no difference of whether or not Nagato wanted to be sealed as all of his actions follow Kabuto's commands, which means, he'd do anything to beat the trio rather than having the trio seal him.

Nagato also wasn't in the same state of mind as he was after Itachi broke out of Edo Tensei, so why do you keep bringing up such an irrelevant point that I already refuted?



> saying chibaku tensei isn't a threat to itachi confirme your brain is severely damaged , and you need to see a doctor ASAS



Running out of rebuttals, so you decided to insult me directly?

 How rude cctr9!

How rude cctr9!

Why you gotta be so mean? 


> and you based that on the fact that he was cracking jokes , congratufuckinglations
> i guess kaguya wasn't a threat to naruto because he was using a sexy technique against her , and LOL cracking jokes



The harem jutsu wasn't a joke as Naruto deliberately used it as a distraction and everytime he has joked around with it, he's always laughed afterwards. He wasn't laughing here, so no reason to assume it was a joke.


> salty ??? why would i be salty ???
> itachi was nagato's 24/7 bitch when he was a part of the akatsuki ???
> he was calling him '' boss '' for god sake



Other way around pal. Itachi was the one who stopped Pain and Obito from invading the village.


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## Ishmael (May 22, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I know, but he still fought seriously. You dont use techniques like Amaterasu on a little brother you want to protect.
> .
> All wrong. They helped break CT Orb.
> 
> ...




This was just beautiful almost brought me to tears


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## IzayaOrihara (May 22, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> This was just beautiful almost brought me to tears


Okay ... whatever lol.


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## Matty (May 23, 2016)

I feel as if bringing up the name uchiha wanker is like bringing up that I was once "satetsu guy" and now "kamui kid" we all have our preferences and favorites. 

UchihaX28 has always for the most part been unbiased and we all tend to lean towards our own guys/girls

However Itachi being above Pein I don't agree with

Reactions: Like 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

Matty said:


> I feel as if bringing up the name uchiha wanker is like bringing up that I was once "satetsu guy" and now "kamui kid" we all have our preferences and favorites.


But one should never let their favourtism of a character affect their judgement of their strength.


> UchihaX28 has always for the most part been unbiased and we all tend to lean towards our own guys/girls


You say that but he is arguing that Itachi is stronger than Pain. That is the stupidest thing ive ever heard. What could make anyone think Itachi is better. And feel we shouldnt lean with a character just because we like them. I like Tsunade, but that doesnt mean i think she can beat Pain just because Jiraiya can for example.


> However Itachi being above Pein I don't agree with


I would hope so.


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> But one should never let their favourtism of a character affect their judgement of their strength.
> 
> You say that but he is arguing that Itachi is stronger than Pain. That is the stupidest thing ive ever heard. What could make anyone think Itachi is better. And feel we shouldnt lean with a character just because we like them. I like Tsunade, but that doesnt mean i think she can beat Pain just because Jiraiya can for example.
> 
> I would hope so.


Pain rikudou , is basicly a walking anti-uchiha itachi weapon

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Pain rikudou , is basicly a walking anti-uchiha itachi weapon


Shuriken is blown away, Katon is absorbed, Totsuka is dodged due to shared vision between paths, yata is useless to CT, BT gets Itachi out of Susanoo, Amaterasu is absorbed, Naraka revives pathd hit by Tsukuyomi which i doubt even works on a Rinnegan user

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Shuriken is blown away, Katon is absorbed, Totsuka is dodged due to shared vision between paths, yata is useless to CT, BT gets Itachi out of Susanoo, Amaterasu is absorbed, Naraka revives pathd hit by Tsukuyomi which i doubt even works on a Rinnegan user


itachi's only relevant weapons against pain are :
- susanoo
- amaterasu
- tsukuyomi

itachi's susanoo isn't madara's , even with the legendary weapons it's still V3 susanoo , so shinra tensei or chibaku tensei
should destroy it , massive shinra tensei isn't even needed

itachi's strongest long-rang jutsu is yasaka magatama , and that is not enuff to destroy the core of a chibaku tensei as we've seen already

- amaterasu is 100 % useless, it can be countered by :
- sensing
- shared vision
- summonings
- TENDO
- GAKIDO
- black receivers

- nagato's rinnegan was actually madara's EMS , and i don't think that tsukuyomi which was broken by sasuke's 3TS can do anything to it
- pain paths are dead bodies , i don't think visual genjutsu should effect'em
inb4 someone say frog song worked , no frog song is an audio genjutsu
for tsukuyomi to work , the paths needs to have a sub-conscience mind in the first place
- and with nagato's superior chakra , and superior doujutsu , genjutsu in general is out of the question
- in CQC itachi simply is overwhelmed with the paths fast reflexes and shared vision and black receivers

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2016)

Itachi's clearly better than Pain/Nagato from their showing. He immediately paneled him with Amaterasu a few seconds into their fight. Then he cut apart Nagato when rescuing Nagato's hostages, as well as blinding most of his summons. Nagato would've died twice over before he ever got CT off if he wasn't an Edo.

The *only* thing Nagato did decently against Itachi was get off Chibaku Tensei, which didn't stress Itachi out for even a moment (and living Nagato coughs up blood and looks like shit when using CT.) Then the second Itachi brought out Totsuka, it was over. Nagato didn't push Itachi even a little bit, not for a second.

Nagato's better than Itachi in raw destruction, but so is Deidara. Nagato, like Deidara, is an inferior ninja to Itachi. He's not as fast, not as smart, and not as effective. The only time in the manga he didn't fight like a complete retard is when Kabuto took him over. Otherwise, it's the old "Send out one weak Path at a time to fight (Jiriaiya, Naruto, etc.) that'll be effective!"

Yeah, if Nagato hypothetically used Pain competently, it'd be dangerous. But he's never been competent. He frequently sends out Asura, Human, Animal, Preta, etc. charging out by themselves for them to get raped and for Pain to quickly be depleted.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Dislike 2


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## Ishmael (May 23, 2016)

When kabuto made nagato used chibaku tensei bee , naruto and itachi Used their strongest long range jutsus to destroy it and when nagato got distracted by it being destroyed itachi decided to stab him with the Sword of totsuka also before the fight happened you could kind of tell that nagato didnt want to fight naruto and you could tell he wanted naruto to defeat him also during the battle before kabuto suppressed his personality nagato was helping out bee and naruto telling them how to counter his summons and jutsus also when nagato was busy(not really worried about itachi) removing narutos soul and preparing to kill bee, itachi interrupted with Susano'o


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> itachi's only relevant weapons against pain are :
> - susanoo
> - amaterasu
> - tsukuyomi
> ...


My point exactly


Sadgoob said:


> Itachi's clearly better than Pain/Nagato from their showing.
> 
> *Nagato, like Deidara, is an inferior ninja to Itachi. He's not as fast, not as smart, and not as effective. *.




Im done with this thread.

So now Edo Itachi = Living Itachi > Nagato > Pain?

Lol im done. We clearly arent talking abouy the same manga.

In the manga i read, Itachi (Living) < Jiraiya < Pain/Nagato

Edo Nagato only lost to Itachi for the same reason Nerfed Oro lost
- plot
- distracted in Oros case blind in Nagatos case
- both were immobilised for totsuka to have a chance
- KCM Naruto + Bee delivered the main firepower for CT's destruction

You my friend, are a big fat Wanker with a capital W

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 2


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2016)

IMO: Healthy Itachi > Edo Itachi > Edo Nagato (Hachibi chakra) > Pain >  Sick Itachi > Edo Nagato (Cripple) > Living Cripple Nagato.

And just imagine Itachi given v2 chakra by Bee instead of Nagato. He'd be insane. Hell, most Kage levels would be crazy if given v2 chakra. We saw base Lee (Jonin) cut through *Edo Madara* with just one tail of v1 chakra.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Ishmael (May 23, 2016)

Welp tthat's all folks....see ya


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Itachi's clearly better than Pain/Nagato from their showing. He immediately paneled him with Amaterasu a few seconds into their fight. Then he cut apart Nagato when rescuing Nagato's hostages, as well as blinding most of his summons. Nagato would've died twice over before he ever got CT off if he wasn't an Edo.
> 
> The *only* thing Nagato did decently against Itachi was get off Chibaku Tensei, which didn't stress Itachi out for even a moment (and living Nagato coughs up blood and looks like shit when using CT.) Then the second Itachi brought out Totsuka, it was over. Nagato didn't push Itachi even a little bit, not for a second.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 3


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2016)

Dude, you don't capitalize names or the first words in sentences and you're attacking my reading comprehension? Kek.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 4


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Dude, you have trouble capitalizing people's names or the first words in sentences. Maybe *you* should read more before critiquing _*anybody's* _reading capabilities. Why don't you show you have a basic grip on language.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 3


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> IMO: Healthy Itachi > Edo Itachi > Edo Nagato (Hachibi chakra) > Pain >  Sick Itachi > Edo Nagato (Cripple) > Living Cripple Nagato.
> 
> And just imagine Itachi given v2 chakra by Bee instead of Nagato. He'd be insane. Hell, most Kage levels would be crazy if given v2 chakra. We saw base Lee (Jonin) cut through *Edo Madara* with just one tail of v1 chakra.


So Part 1 Itachi with his Part 2 feats (tjat is healthy Itachi) is that strong? Nah I aint buying it. He ran away from Jiraiya, then got sick and lost to Hebi sasuke in part 2.

Pain > Healthy Itachi > Sick Itachi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachi san88 (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> But one should never let their favourtism of a character affect their judgement of their strength.


I think that some people in this forum need to stop to be so hypocritical

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

Itachi san88 said:


> I think that some people in this forum need to stop to be so hypocritical


Me saying Orochimaru > Itachi and all that has nothing to do with him being my favourite character. I debate objectively not subjectively.

Reactions: Like 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Me saying Orochimaru > Itachi and all that has nothing to do with him being my favourite character. I debate objectively not subjectively.


You only call me a hypocrite cos you havent read the essay so you are an ignorant fool.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

Itachi san88 said:


> I think that some people in this forum need to stop to be so hypocritical


If lightning struck as often as irony 
we would've been all dead by now

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Itachi san88 (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> You only call me a hypocrite cos you havent read the essay so you are an ignorant fool.




I read it, and you can keep believing in this Orochimaru/Sannin>Itachi bullshit (or Sannin>Tobirama), not my problem dude


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

Itachi san88 said:


> I read it, and you can keep believing in this Orochimaru/Sannin>Itachi bullshit (or Sannin>Tobirama), not my problem dude

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Legend777 (May 23, 2016)

Matty said:


> UchihaX28 has always for the most part been unbiased and we all tend to lean towards our own guys/girls





Sadgoob said:


> IMO: Healthy Itachi > Edo Itachi > Edo Nagato (Hachibi chakra) > Pain >  Sick Itachi > Edo Nagato (Cripple) > Living Cripple Nagato.


Great posts...

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2016)

Gotta love how vexed some children get here 

Not sure why such attachments  to characters 

If nagato wasn't above itachi , kishi won't have created a scenario where itachi fights nagato with backup 

If itachi wasn't above orochimaru. He won't have had oro be trolled twice , admit inferiority once then have sasuke confirm said inferiority 

Jiriaya being equal to itachi is fine and all I can agree to that 

His portrayal ain't far off when nagato clearly states with knowledge he could take on pain 

This whole sannin are equal honestly is simply wrong 

Might as well claim all hokage are equal , or all kage are equal 

Equal importance doesn't equate to equal battle strength 

Turrin was right in the fact that Jiriaya standing above the sannin is highlighted 2 fold 

Only one to gain Senjutsu and use it 

Higher DB score than the other 2

Reactions: Like 1


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## ImSerious (May 23, 2016)

Matty said:


> I'd consider him to be >= to Minato
> 
> I can't see Itachi's arsenal being beaten by Minato
> 
> Just saying


You trying to start shit m9?


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Me saying Orochimaru > Itachi and all that has nothing to do with him being my favourite character. I debate objectively not subjectively.



It does because Orochimaru outright admitted inferiority.

Itachi was never really considered to be all that much inferior to Nagato. Nagato was trashing 2 Jinchuuriki yet somehow, Itachi swoops in and saves the day and ends the entire fight within a few panels. If Nagato was so far above Itachi, then how did Itachi shift the battle in their favor when his comrades were outright trash?

Logically, it means that Itachi was at such a high level compared to Nagato that the trio could win, even if the 2 of the other members were under-performing.

Strategoob made such a good point about Pain/Nagato being more like Deidara. They specialize in raw destruction much like Deidara, but in the end, Deidara is inferior to Itachi. Kisame possesses more firepower than Itachi does yet it's blatantly clear that Itachi was always Kisame's superior. What stops it from being the case with Nagato? Nagato is above Itachi through his usage of Chibaku Tensei, but what else? KCM Naruto and Bee literally contributed nothing yet once Itachi swoops in, Kabuto forces Nagato to use his "best" technique and continues to get trashed afterwards, admitting that losing Shared Vision was the reason Nagato lost.

Nagato had nothing up his sleeve. It's not as if he could Shinra Tensei their ass to victory like most people think. Itachi was simply at the level where he was close to Nagato's level of strength. If Nagato wasn't an Edo, getting his arm sliced off would've been the end of the fight there.


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> You trying to start shit m8?


fixed


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It does because Orochimaru outright admitted inferiority.


yes , when he was far weaker 
and the plot continued to develop , and orochimaru surpassed itachi by miles
and i mean miles 
powerful body + hashirama's powerful chakra + powerful edo tensei including BM minato , tobirama , and hiruzen 

i like to call this orochimaru '' plot development orochimaru '' 

how can itachi beat '' plot development orochimaru '' ???


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> yes , when he was far weaker
> and the plot continued to develop , and orochimaru surpassed itachi by miles
> and i mean miles
> powerful body + hashirama's powerful chakra + powerful edo tensei including BM minato , tobirama , and hiruzen
> ...



No matter what, Kishimoto depicts Itachi as superior. When Orochimaru gets a massive power-up through Hydra, he still gets his ass sliced through despite Itachi suffering massive handicaps. 

Orochimaru literally has Kabuto who inherits all of his Power and outstrips Orochimaru in abilities through Team Taka's DNA and the Sound Five DNA along with Senjutsu, something Orochimaru couldn't accomplish yet Itachi still effortlessly reacts to his attacks and forces him into Izanami.

Kishimoto always depicted Itachi as Orochimaru's superior. No matter what Orochimaru does, he could never surpass Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> So Part 1 Itachi with his Part 2 feats (tjat is healthy Itachi) is that strong? Nah I aint buying it. He ran away from Jiraiya, then got sick and lost to Hebi sasuke in part 2.
> 
> Pain > Healthy Itachi > Sick Itachi



 Itachi literally had no intention on fighting Jiraiya and used that as an excuse to justify to Kisame why they were leaving the village. Itachi had no point fighting Jiraiya when he wanted to ensure Sasuke was safe and force him to become stronger. That's literally it.

 It's more like, Itachi = Jiraiya by your logic and even then, Pain admitted he would've lost to Jiraiya if he had knowledge, so it's really: Itachi = Jiraiya > Pain.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> No matter what, Kishimoto depicts Itachi as superior. When Orochimaru gets a massive power-up through Hydra, he still gets his ass sliced through despite Itachi suffering massive handicaps.
> 
> Orochimaru literally has Kabuto who inherits all of his Power and outstrips Orochimaru in abilities through Team Taka's DNA and the Sound Five DNA along with Senjutsu, something Orochimaru couldn't accomplish yet Itachi still effortlessly reacts to his attacks and forces him into Izanami.
> 
> Kishimoto always depicted Itachi as Orochimaru's superior. No matter what Orochimaru does, he could never surpass Itachi.


let me fresh your ................................................. memory 
- kabuto was fighting both itachi and sasuke , wasn't he ??
so again you are using 2 on 1 fight , to try to prove something in itachi's favore 
that's how weak itachi is , he can't / couldn't / wouldn't , solo anything by himself
at all 
the only thing he solo'd was his mother , no ? 
unlike some other hokage who actually solo'd things 

- sasuke had to save itachi's ass multi times from kabuto , including the time when he help him break genjutsu , no ? 
- itachi only survived long enuff to use his '' asspull '' jutsu , because he was an edo tensei
- if it wasn't for his edo body , he would've been dead when kabuto fodderized him with muki tensei jutsu , no ? 

- kabuto did not use his edo tensei , against them , no ??? 

so , in a 1 on 1 fight , kabuto would beat the living shit out of itachi , shit diff 

orochimaru does the same , but with extreme ease , he simply summons bijuu fucking mode minato , and just sits back and sips some tea


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> let me fresh your ................................................. memory
> - kabuto was fighting both itachi and sasuke , wasn't he ??
> so again you are using 2 on 1 fight , to try to prove something in itachi's favore
> that's how weak itachi is , he can't / couldn't / wouldn't , solo anything by himself
> at all



And Sasuke did nothing. Itachi literally had to carry deadweight because he was forced to protect Sasuke. If Itachi had killer intent, he would've killed Kabuto because he saw through everything and literally duped him twice with the same trick.


> unlike some other hokage who actually solo'd things
> 
> - sasuke had to save itachi's ass multi times from kabuto , including the time when he help him break genjutsu , no ?
> - itachi only survived long enuff to use his '' asspull '' jutsu , because he was an edo tensei
> - if it wasn't for his edo body , he would've been dead when kabuto fodderized him with muki tensei jutsu , no ?



That's an example of Itachi being hit because he had to carry "dead-weight".

He used Sasuke because he was disposable, but if you look carefully, you can tell Itachi literally sets up Izanami after letting Kabuto deliver a clean blow to him which indicates that he planned for Sasuke to protect him all so that he could set up Izanami.

Seriously:

Link removed

Itachi getting sliced in half was done on purpose. He planned out the entire thing out as he forced Sasuke to throw his blade at Kabuto which enabled him to reenact this:

Link removed

Which he did successfully. Itachi was never blitzed at one point. He saw through all of Kabuto's attacks as Kabuto admitted and never contradicted:

Link removed

 It's certainly not coincidence that Itachi set up the 2nd part of Izanami in just a couple of panels. 



> - kabuto did not use his edo tensei , against them , no ???
> 
> so , in a 1 on 1 fight , kabuto would beat the living shit out of itachi , shit diff
> 
> orochimaru does the same , but with extreme ease , he simply summons bijuu fucking mode minato , and just sits back and sips some tea



Doesn't matter, Kishimoto had Itachi defeat Kabuto, Orochimaru's superior to solidify his superiority over Orochimaru.


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## Empathy (May 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Itachi's clearly better than Pain/Nagato from their showing. He immediately paneled him with Amaterasu a few seconds into their fight.



Is there any reason Nagato couldn't have absorbed or dispersed _Amaterasu _sooner? I don't think there is. Nagato probably wasn't proactive about getting rid of the flames because he didn't want to fight his friends and was happy to sit there burning. Kabuto's orders to capture the jinchuuriki likely didn't recognize Itachi as a new enemy yet. The first thing Kabuto did upon taking over was get rid of the flames, so I don't see why Nagato couldn't have done that earlier, or why he _had _sit there as his limbs slowly burned during _Kotoamatsukami's _entire explanation. Even then, according to your hiearchy we're talking about one of Nagato's weakest incarnations versus one of Itachi's strongest, and this was before Nagato/Kabuto were even aware they were in a fight against Itachi.



> Then he cut apart Nagato when rescuing Nagato's hostages, as well as blinding most of his summons. Nagato would've died twice over before he ever got CT off if he wasn't an Edo.



This was only accomplished through Kabuto being distracted by fighting Naruto and Bee, and it's not reflective of how Itachi versus Nagato would've went 1v1.



> The *only* thing Nagato did decently against Itachi was get off Chibaku Tensei, which didn't stress Itachi out for even a moment (and living Nagato coughs up blood and looks like shit when using CT.) Then the second Itachi brought out Totsuka, it was over. Nagato didn't push Itachi even a little bit, not for a second.



Edo Nagato had Edo Itachi beaten on an individual level at this point, and also in terms of trump card versus trump card. All this shows is that Nagato was no match for Itachi, Naruto, and Bee collectively, but I still think Nagato represented a greater threat that none of them could've handled individually. It's in line with Itachi's post-win lecture about not being able to accomplish everything on your own and none of them could've survived _Chibaku Tensei _by themselves.



Sadgoob said:


> IMO: Healthy Itachi > Edo Itachi



Why?



cctr9 said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Do you have anything substantive to say to refute his claims or are you just going to meme your way into changing hearts and minds?

Reactions: Informative 1 | Dislike 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi literally had no intention on fighting Jiraiya and used that as an excuse to justify to Kisame why they were leaving the village.


That is not a certified fact. That is just a fan interpretation/speculation. No manga evidence supports it. I domnt care if Itachi was allied with Konoha - that was a part 2 storyline. In part 1 he was prepared to kill Kakashi and almost let Kisame kill Kurenai if not for Asuma stepping in. Itachi never stated he didnt need to fight Jiraiya. And "oh he lied to Kisame" - stop overwriting Kishi's work. Write a fanfic Itachi in your own manga.


> Itachi had no point fighting Jiraiya when he wanted to ensure Sasuke was safe and force him to become stronger. That's literally it.


Sasuke was safe. Itachi had seen Sasuke and he was healthy and well. Then he beat him up and used Tsukuyomi (see, Itachi's whole character is a retcon) and he could have stayed to fight Jiraiya. He had Kisame with him.

It doesnt matter either way as Jiraiya fought Pain who Itachi cannot fight.



> It's more like, Itachi = Jiraiya by your logic and even then, Pain admitted he would've lost to Jiraiya if he had knowledge, so it's really: Itachi = Jiraiya > Pain.



Pain > Jiraiya (w/ knowledge) > Pain (CST/CT restricted) > Jiraiya (w/o knowledge)
Jiraiya > Itachi (as per canon)
So therefore Pain in any form > Itachi

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Complete_Ownage (May 23, 2016)

In no particular order in the categories:

Nagato/Pain
DSM Kabuto

Minato
Tobirama
Bee
Itachi

Gengetsu
Mu
onoki
Sannin
etc 

Itachi is easily on the level of Minato & Tobirama however I see him more at the bottom of that category.


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Do you have anything substantive to say to refute his claims or are you just going to meme your way into changing hearts and minds?


u made bro ?? 

his post was so stupid and full of D-riding and fanboyism i didn't even bother to discuss it 

i literally spammed 18 fucking post in this thread to prove my points , where were you back then ???


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## Empathy (May 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> u made bro ??



Only memes then, I got it.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Only memes then, I got it.


whatever............

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> That is not a certified fact. That is just a fan interpretation/speculation. No manga evidence supports it. I domnt care if Itachi was allied with Konoha - that was a part 2 storyline. In part 1 he was prepared to kill Kakashi and almost let Kisame kill Kurenai if not for Asuma stepping in. Itachi never stated he didnt need to fight Jiraiya. And "oh he lied to Kisame" - stop overwriting Kishi's work. Write a fanfic Itachi in your own manga.



Link removed

This is a certified fact. He simply returned to the village to ensure Sasuke was safe because Sandaime Hokage was dead, the only person who ensured Sasuke was safe this entire time. Where does Jiraiya come into play? It doesn't. The reason he was shown fleeing Jiraiya with Kisame because he already accomplished that goal. Kisame however, was after the Kyuubi considering Kisame's loyalty was to the Akatsuki, so Itachi needed to convince Kisame that it was acceptable to escape.

Even Kisame had his doubts which is why Itachi explained to him that he wasn't in the position to fight Jiraiya, so that Kisame would be less skeptical about Itachi's true intentions.



> Sasuke was safe. Itachi had seen Sasuke and he was healthy and well. Then he beat him up and used Tsukuyomi (see, Itachi's whole character is a retcon) and he could have stayed to fight Jiraiya. He had Kisame with him.
> 
> It doesnt matter either way as Jiraiya fought Pain who Itachi cannot fight.



Itachi used Tsukyomi to further deepen Sasuke's hatred for Itachi. Itachi forced Sasuke to hate him, so that he'd be more willing to gain power. By deepening that hatred, Sasuke would be more motivated to kill Itachi and seek more ways to become strong.



> Pain > Jiraiya (w/ knowledge) > Pain (CST/CT restricted) > Jiraiya (w/o knowledge)
> Jiraiya > Itachi (as per canon)
> So therefore Pain in any form > Itachi



So Jiraiya (w/ knowledge) > Pain > Jiraiya (w/o knowledge) and Jiraiya > Itachi, but Orochimaru > Jiraiya and Itachi > Orochimaru, so therefore, Itachi > Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Pain > Jiraiya > Itachi.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> whatever............



 You have absolutely nothing that contributes to the discussion. 

 You're so biased and you don't even know it. You deliberately have guys associate me with a stigma that I'm an UchihaWanker yet you're supporting someone who wanks Orochimaru and thinks he's Itachi's superior. It's clear that you have a bias against people who think more highly of the Uchiha.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> You have absolutely nothing that contributes to the discussion.
> 
> You're so biased and you don't even know it. You deliberately have guys associate me with a stigma that I'm an UchihaWanker yet you're supporting someone who wanks Orochimaru and thinks he's Itachi's superior. It's clear that you have a bias against people who think more highly of the Uchiha.


 and he has the nerve to talk about bias LMFAO 
just because i don't ride the itachi's dick 24/7 doesn't mean i'm biased 
i'm an naruto/sasuke/minato/hinata fan , but even I know the limits of my favorite characters 
i don't put'em in realms they don't belong to 
plot devolopement orochimaru >>>>>> itachi , and there's nothing anyone can do about it 
powerful body , powerful chakra , powerful edo tensei ..............etc etc 
and to add insult to injury 
minato > itachi
pain > itachi 
nagato > itachi
jiraiya > itachi
tobirama > itachi

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

Look Uchiha Wanker i dont care. Im tired of the back and forth. Itachi ran away end of. Itachi cant beat Pain. Jiraiya can. End of.

Itachi < Jiraiya/Pain

Why do you want it so bad for itachi to be stronger? Why?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> and he has the nerve to talk about bias LMFAO
> just because i don't ride the itachi's dick 24/7 doesn't mean i'm biased
> i'm an naruto/sasuke/minato/hinata fan , but even I know the limits of my favorite characters
> i don't put'em in realms they don't belong to
> ...



*I SECOND THAT*

To make it more fluent

Nagato > Pain > Jiraiya > Tobirama > Itachi
Dunno if Base Minato is stronger than, equal to or weaker than Pain. What do you guys think? Either way he trashes Itachi, who lost to Hebi Sasuke, who is < Taka Sasuke who needed help to get schooled by Bee < MS Sasuke that almost died against Raikage and we know those two lost to Minato, even if they werent fully prime (nothing suggests they werent except fan speculation)


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Look Uchiha Wanker i dont care. Im tired of the back and forth. Itachi ran away end of. Itachi cant beat Pain. Jiraiya can. End of.
> 
> Itachi < Jiraiya/Pain
> 
> Why do you want it so bad for itachi to be stronger? Why?



 So that's the best you can come up with? Ignore my evidence, so you can justify your own biased opinion. I guess there's nothing to it then if you choose to ignore manga evidence.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> So that's the best you can come up with? Ignore my evidence, so you can justify your own biased opinion. I guess there's nothing to it then if you choose to ignore manga evidence.


What evidence. Him checking on Sasuke has nothing to do with him vs Jiraiya. Orochimaru came to Tenchi Bridge to get an update on Sasori and kill him if the opportunity presented itself. He established that Sasori was dead. But did he run away from Yamato? No. Did he run away from Team 7? No. Did he run away from KN4? Until his body rejected him, no. I can come up with plenty examples. The point is your making an excuse for your favourite character. And its not just what he did, its what he said. Kisame said he cant fight Jiraiya, yet is close Itachi. Kisame said Itachi can fight him maybe, but Itachi disagreed. Itachi is also dust to the same Pein that Jiraiya fought with equally. Its not just the hype. Its the feats too. Jiraiya > Itachi. But you wank Itachi so good luck with me nailing that into your head.
Itachi is your favourite character and as we know on this forum there is no use in trying to reason with an Itachi fan

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> What evidence. Him checking on Sasuke has nothing to do with him vs Jiraiya. Orochimaru came to Tenchi Bridge to get an update on Sasori and kill him if the opportunity presented itself. He established that Sasori was dead. But did he run away from Yamato? No. Did he run away from Team 7? No. Did he run away from KN4? Until his body rejected him, no. I can come up with plenty examples. The point is your making an excuse for your favourite character. And its not just what he did, its what he said. Kisame said he cant fight Jiraiya, yet is close Itachi. Kisame said Itachi can fight him maybe, but Itachi disagreed. Itachi is also dust to the same Pein that Jiraiya fought with equally. Its not just the hype. Its the feats too. Jiraiya > Itachi. But you wank Itachi so good luck with me nailing that into your head.
> Itachi is your favourite character and as we know on this forum there is no use in trying to reason with an Itachi fan



That's a false comparison. Orochimaru had every reason to stay. It's established that Orochimaru in Part 1 wanted Naruto dead, so him staying to fight Team 7 aligns perfectly to that. Furthermore, Itachi's not arrogant like Orochimaru who stayed to simply test the boundaries of Naruto's strength in comparison to Sasuke's, so Itachi had no reason to stay just to fight Jiraiya at all. Because Itachi's calm and calculative rather than arrogant, he would retreat knowing that he already accomplished his goal rather than stay and fight ninja who were a part of Konoha, the very village he loved.

 Itachi had no motive to fight Jiraiya. Orochimaru had every reason to fight Naruto due to his own arrogance and how Naruto interfered with the Akatsuki. This is why the example you made is false. 

Itachi established only that he "might" be able to beat Jiraiya only because he knew that there would be a possibility that he'd encounter Jiraiya, so he wanted to assure Kisame that the best action is to retreat rather than fight him to basically have Kisame off his back. He wanted to hide his "true intentions" from everyone, so in order to do that, he made up a lie to Kisame, so then he'd have a reason to retreat instead of fighting ninja from Konoha which is clearly not what he wanted.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

Whatever Irrelevant im going to bed now so rant all you want

Canon Manga: Minato >= Pain >= Jiraiya/Sannin/Pain (Restricted) >= Tobirama >= Itachi/Izuna. Simple.
The i used >= to show how small the power gaps are, but that is the correct sequence. Manga says so.
And yes Sannin are there because Tsunade fought 5 V3 Edo Madara Clones w/ Rinnegan & Mokuton so she isn't losing to Itachi. They have a stalemate at best based on match up (ironic isnt it, Uchiha and Senju).
(Hey guys i wasn't sure about Minato but he did kinda defeat KN9 and Tobi, while Pain's CT got busted by KN8, so is Minato above Pain?)
And since i think Hanzo is cool, I'll add him in too in red
Minato/Prime Hiruzen >= Pain/Prime Hanzo >= Jiraiya/Sannin/Pain (Restricted) >= Tobirama >= Itachi ..... Jiraiya wanked Hanzo and Pain said he once respected him (as an equal ? ...) so I'll peg him there. Oh and Prime Hiruzen in blue.. I think he should go there ... or maybe on Pain tier i dunno! 


In the grand scheme of things, when you look at the manga objectively, Itachi ain't nothing special

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Turrin (May 23, 2016)

Saying Itachi > Minato is overrating him to the same extent that saying Orochimaru (Pre-Zetsu body) > Itachi is underrating him. Just like saying Itachi is inferior to Minato by a huge margin is underrating Itachi, while saying Orochimaru is inferior to Itachi by a huge margin is overrating Itachi.

Minato (Mid-Sized Gap) Itachi (Mid-Sized Gap) Orochimaru

Reactions: Informative 1 | Useful 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 23, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Saying Itachi > Minato is overrating him to the same extent that saying Orochimaru (Pre-Zetsu body) > Itachi is underrating him. Just like saying Itachi is inferior to Minato by a huge margin is underrating Itachi, while saying Orochimaru is inferior to Itachi by a huge margin is overrating Itachi.
> 
> Minato (Mid-Sized Gap) Itachi (Mid-Sized Gap) Orochimaru


I have an essay that proves Orochimaru's superiority.


UchihaX28 said:


> No matter what Orochimaru does, he could never surpass Itachi.



Honestly this thread is so silly

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 2


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2016)

lol those previous hokage required zetsu bodies to actually bring them closer to full strength

orochimaru needed to absorb zetsu body then use the remaining to summon them

that's zetsu body 2 fold.

orochimaru by default doesn't have zetsu bodies so readily available

now he summons those 4 with part 1 inaccuracy and itachi shits all over very weak versions of the hokage

Reactions: Like 2


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

I already told him that but he won't listen  

war arc orochimaru >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any version of itachi


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2016)

yh that's a fact

now give itachi some hashirama DNA and that would quickly be false


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

People actually think under normal circumstances, Itachi would let Orochimaru literally set up the sacrifices and attempt to perform the seal and ritual for Edo Tensei. 

 That's asking for another Totsuka Blade straight to the gut.


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

great , how about we also give orochimaru a pair of sharingan as well


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> People actually think under normal circumstances, Itachi would let Orochimaru literally set up the sacrifices and attempt to perform the seal and ritual for Edo Tensei.
> 
> That's asking for another Totsuka Blade straight to the gut.


ohhhhhhhhhh don't worry , oro won't be coming at itachi without a his edo being already prepared , like how he did against hiruzen
itachi takes a spanking in the ass


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> ohhhhhhhhhh don't worry , oro won't be coming at itachi without a his edo being already prepared , like how he did against hiruzen
> itachi takes a spanking in the ass



 Except that's what he did against Hiruzen. He didn't have his Edo Tensei prepared until they encountered each other. 

 Same scenario. Orochimaru (IC), will not have Edo Tensei set up when they encounter each other.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachi san88 (May 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> yh that's a fact
> 
> now give itachi some hashirama DNA and that would quickly be false


War arc Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi (actually, is stronger than many people), only if can use edo tensei, and is not easy in a battle (edo Tensei is also a jutsu that requires preparation). Orochimaru with Zetsu body has not feats.

Itachi does not need Hashirama's DNA to defeat him  this is practically a common opinion for people who can read the manga lol

Now, i suggest you to abandon this thread for the sake of your sanity mental

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Turrin (May 23, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I have an essay that proves Orochimaru's superiority.


I tried reading the essay, because I appreciate anything that someone puts that much work into, but there were so many just downright falsehoods in the first few posts alone that I simply could not finish it. So needless to say i'm not buying what your selling in that Essay. And this is coming from someone whose not at all closed minded to the idea of Orochimaru (Pre-Zetsu Body) >= Itachi, I just haven't seen anyone be able to formulate a good enough argument for it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## ImSerious (May 23, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> You're so biased and you don't even know it.


The pot calls the kettle black.


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> The pot calls the kettle black.



Except I know that I'm not biased. I only support the Uchihas when I know they win and I always back it up with manga evidence. I don't hide behind memes like a coward and spam threads to win people over. That might be cctr9, but he's biased, I'm not.


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## ImSerious (May 23, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Except I know that I'm not biased.


Please tell me again how Tsunade is more reflexive than Minato.
Or how A beats Minato.
Or how every character in the war arc is stronger than Minato.

Not biased


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Please tell me again how Tsunade is more reflexive than Minato.
> Or how A beats Minato.
> Or how every character in the war arc is stronger than Minato.
> 
> Not biased



 Through feats, Tsunade, especially with Byakugou is more reflexive than Minato. Does that mean she's as fast as Minato w/ FTG? Not necessarily.

 And I admitted that Minato was stronger than Yondaime Raikage under most circumstances.

 Did I state that every character in the War Arc beats Minato? Nope. I stated the Top Tiers of the War Arc beats Minato. I generally see Minato at Mu's level, more or less with Minato being slightly inferior.


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## ImSerious (May 23, 2016)

Breh, you're clearly biased against the guy. You're almost in every thread about him talking shit about him.


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Breh, you're clearly biased against the guy. You're almost in every thread about him talking shit about him.



It's not my fault people keep pairing him up against the best of the best.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## UltimateDeadpool (May 23, 2016)

Below Obito and equal to Jiraiya.

It's canon and works plot-wise.



ℜai said:


> People still posting this shit.
> 
> Itachi was pretending and lying.



He was lying to avoid confronting Jiraiya... just to go and confront Jiraiya? That makes Itachi a liar _and_ an idiot. The bloodknight Kisame was hesitant to go and even questioned Itachi's power, so if Itachi wanted an out, THAT was it. So no, Itachi had no reason to lie.


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## Matty (May 23, 2016)

Damn didn't realize people hated itachi so much... I understand some of his fans are insufferable but he's still a great and powerful character


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Minato has no genjutsu defense, he has no chance.
> 
> Nagato was butchered by Itachi multiple times inside one chapter.
> 
> Itachi is a High Kage on paper with his abilities (inferior to Nagato.) But similar to Shikamaru or Batman, Itachi will bat *way* above his league because of his intellect, will of fire, and the author's extreme affection for him.



Excellent post.
Nagato is stronger than Itachi, but Itachi would definitely defeat Nagato in the manga. Kishimoto would write it so. He portrayed them as peers.

In terms of portayal and standing, I kinda see Itachi, Nagato and Minato relatively close. I place Itachi on a tier above Onoki and other shinobi of that level, kind of a bridge tier between high tiers and god tiers(Madara/Hashirama).



Matty said:


> Damn didn't realize people hated itachi so much... I understand some of his fans are insufferable but he's still a great and powerful character


You are actually lucky that you joined recently. The hatred was much bigger before.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UltimateDeadpool (May 23, 2016)

Matty said:


> Damn didn't realize people hated itachi so much... I understand some of his fans are insufferable but he's still a great and powerful character



I can't speak for everyone, but I don't hate Itachi. I acknowledge that Itachi is a very powerful character, and I place him up there with people like Nagato and Jiraiya.

And yeah, some of his fans are insufferable, but I don't hate Itachi... I hate them, lol.


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are actually lucky that you joined recently. The hatred was much bigger before.



 Like IchLiebe. 

 I liked IchLiebe, but damn is he a massive Itachi hater. I even remember the day I joined, people were already bagging on Itachi.


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

KeyOfMiracles signature has a post of UchihaX28 that says : tsunade , and danzo are more reflexive than minato 

and KeyOfMiracles only choses the stupidest posts to put in his sig 

which means tsunade being more reflexive than minato is a sig worthy


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## ImSerious (May 23, 2016)

Matty said:


> Damn didn't realize people hated itachi so much...


Bruh, it's 2016. Where you been all this time?


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## Android (May 23, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> pairing him up against the best of the best.


trust , pairing him with the one in your head right now is a great insult to minato


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## Rai (May 23, 2016)

* vs  >>>>> Itachi vs Minato *

Reactions: Like 3


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## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> KeyOfMiracles signature has a post of UchihaX28 that says : tsunade , and danzo are more reflexive than minato
> 
> and KeyOfMiracles only choses the stupidest posts to put in his sig
> 
> which means tsunade being more reflexive than minato is a sig worthy



When I told KeyofMiracles that Base Tsunade could keep up with V1 Raikage because Raikage asked for her help against 2 speedsters, he had nothing to say, as in, he couldn't refute it because he knew I was right.


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## DaVizWiz (May 23, 2016)

Sick Blind Itachi= Average Mid Kage
Healthy Itachi = High Mid Kage
Edo Itachi = Average High Kage

Living Minato is in a class with MS Obito, EMS Sasuke, DMS Kabuto, Killer Bee, Nagato and KCM Naruto. And he's stronger than all but Prime Nagato. Ergo, High High Kage.

Edo Minato is Low God Level, with monsters like Hashirama, EMS Madara, BM/BSM Naruto and Kabuto/Orochimaru with edos, so powerful they cannot be considered in the class of the normal elite shinobi.

The hype and combat ability difference between Itachi and Minato was apparent from the start of the manga. Minato received god hype in the first panel of the comic by the author directly, not from a character. From there Itachi could never be equal, no matter who spoke of his abilities, seeing as his feats certainly aren't on the level of any version of Minato. Hype additions of flee on sight orders in a major war and praise if not envy from Ei, Jiraiya, Hiruzen, Tobirama, Madara is simply icing on the cake for the shutdown of an argument that never truly was.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Matty (May 23, 2016)

I guess I'm glad I just joined last year. My 2 favorite characters get shit on constantly 

Can't imagine the Itachi/Sasori hate before I joined.

BTW lol at healthy Itachi being high mid kage. Even sick he is high kage. Healthy itachi is high end high kage

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (May 23, 2016)

Nagato is the gate to the god-tier. And below him is still Pain and Minato. Itachi is right there, though. But not at Nagato's level.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> If nagato wasn't above itachi , kishi won't have created a scenario where itachi fights nagato with backup



"Fight."

That stomp was also after Itachi paneled Nagato once without backup.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> "Fight."
> 
> That stomp was also after Itachi paneled Nagato once without backup.



Ok stomped him with backup 
Can't ignore that without bee and Naruto itachi would be helpless against CT

Also can't ignore before that blinding the summons was because nagato and the summons were facing bee and Naruto 

You are free to ignore this 

You would be the only though


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## Android (May 24, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> "Fight."
> 
> That stomp was also after Itachi paneled Nagato once without backup.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Itachi san88 (May 24, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Please tell me again how Tsunade is more reflexive than Minato.
> Or how A beats Minato.
> Or how every character in the war arc is stronger than Minato.
> 
> Not biased


Come on man, you know that the most biased people in this forum are Minato fans, since they are always them that try to downplay characters like Itachi, Kakashi, Hashirama, Obito, Madara, Tobirama etc in every thread to make Minato look good, and is not a coincidence. They are exactly like Uchiha fans.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> great , how about we also give orochimaru a pair of sharingan as well



Lol why would we do that 
?
Itachi born with them orochimaru isn't 
You sounding a tad bitter about itachi genetics 

Oro boosted by hashirama DNA would be above itachi 

Now you give itachi the same boost and itachi shits on him all over again

Reactions: Like 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I tried reading the essay, because I appreciate anything that someone puts that much work into, but there were so many just downright falsehoods in the first few posts alone that I simply could not finish it. So needless to say i'm not buying what your selling in that Essay. And this is coming from someone whose not at all closed minded to the idea of Orochimaru (Pre-Zetsu Body) >= Itachi, I just haven't seen anyone be able to formulate a good enough argument for it.


What were the falsehoods? I agree some of it might have been. @HandfulloNaruto disagreed with all of Part 1 (Intro) and Part 2 (Hype/Comparisons/Statements/Portrayal) of the essay and only agreed with half of Part 3 (Feats/Abilities) and then considered Part 4 (Why Orochimaru lost to Itachi + Misconceptions), Part 5 (Orochimaru vs Tsukuyomi) and Part 6 (Orochimaru vs Susanoo). Part 7 was just a conclusion. And despite that, I was abel to change his mind. Don't take this as an insult, but if you can't be bothered to read the whole essay (i'm not expecting you to because i agree it is long-winded, but i had to get every point in so thats why it is long - when i shorten it, people just repeat the same bullshit and i also end up repeating myself) then I have no way of proving anything to you. To pass an exam, you have to study the specification/syllabus. If you dont, then how can you expect to pass? You see what i mean?


Turrin said:


> the idea of Orochimaru (Pre-Zetsu Body) >= Itachi, I just haven't seen anyone be able to formulate a good enough argument for it.


Im sorry, but, no one in the history of Naruto based forums, has formulated a better argument than i. I could just use single smaller arguments, such as the Jiraya hype, Minato hype, Hiruzen hype, Manda's feats, part 1 ET feats, Oro's ways of countering MS etc etc but i used every argument possible and thats why the essay is so long. Also, it is not just about discussing Prime Orochimaru vs Itachi, it is also about analysing Orochimaru's abilities and evaluating any misconceptions about his and Itachi's abilities, so if you're interested in that too, its all in the essay. If you were saying "My life depends on me being convinced into thinking Prime Orochimaru (pre war arc) is > the Itachi that fought Hebi Sasuke", then there is no better material to read than my essay. It is long winded. Part 1 and 7 are irrelevant. Read Part 2/3/4/5/6. If you have spare time and/or really want to know who is stronger, based on your own opinion formulated by the thoughts risen by my essay, then spend 5 days of a week reading it, one chapter of the essay a day. Really gett into deep thoughts, and if Itachi/Orochimaru is your favourite or a character you hate whatever, put it aside for a minute, and read the essay. Look at the manga in the grand scheme of objectivity, and open your mind. I can guarantee you that you will say "ok, i had some misconceptions before , but Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru. Orochimaru wins high-extreme diff 7-/10 times." Ask @HandfulloNaruto if you don't believe me. He was someone who originally thought Itachi was stronger than Prime Orochimaru, who was stronger than the same Jiriaya Itachi ran away from. But my essay completely turned his opinion. So on that premise alone, the essay is worth reading. But don't do it on my account. It has to come from you. You have to put any fanboyisms/misconceptions out of your mind. You have to want to believe that there is a possibility that i could be right, or wrong. Only then will my essay be meaningful. The rest is up to you. I have already proved to @HandfulloNaruto that I was right, so now i know i wasnt crazy for thinking Itachi < Orochimaru. If @Icegaze doesn't believe me, for example, that is fine, because he is the same guy who thinks Yamata (which = a Susanoo in size), is smaller than Manda (who is bigger than Aoda, whom wore Susanoo on its head like a little crown lol), so no offence to him, but he isnt the sharpest tool in the box. But if a open minded, rational debater, who holds no hatred or fanboyism of any of the characters involved, can believe that Prime Orochimaru can defeat Itachi, then i have hit the jackpot. If you dont want to believe it, that is fine. If you want to see if theres a chance it could be true, then you have to read the essay, Part 2 through to Part 6.  . Like I said, the rest is up to you. I've done my bit and written a good argument. Another good debater/non-fanboy/non-ignorant and close minded person on this forum agrees, so Ive successfully proved my point. The rest is up to you.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 25, 2016)

Matty said:


> I guess I'm glad I just joined last year. My 2 favorite characters get shit on constantly
> 
> Can't imagine the Itachi/Sasori hate before I joined.
> 
> BTW lol at healthy Itachi being high mid kage. Even sick he is high kage. Healthy itachi is high end high kage



Jiraiya is a mid end High Kage, and was stronger than Itachi, who was healthy in Part 1, so what the fuck are you talking about.

Itachi? Shat on? Hes the most wanked character in Naruto history. And expect people to shit on him when a fool makes a thread to suggest someone who lost to Hebi Sasuke could defeat Prime Nagato.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 3


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## Turrin (May 25, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> What were the falsehoods? I agree some of it might have been. @HandfulloNaruto disagreed with all of Part 1 (Intro) and Part 2 (Hype/Comparisons/Statements/Portrayal) of the essay and only agreed with half of Part 3 (Feats/Abilities) and then considered Part 4 (Why Orochimaru lost to Itachi + Misconceptions), Part 5 (Orochimaru vs Tsukuyomi) and Part 6 (Orochimaru vs Susanoo). Part 7 was just a conclusion. And despite that, I was abel to change his mind. Don't take this as an insult, but if you can't be bothered to read the whole essay (i'm not expecting you to because i agree it is long-winded, but i had to get every point in so thats why it is long - when i shorten it, people just repeat the same bullshit and i also end up repeating myself) then I have no way of proving anything to you. To pass an exam, you have to study the specification/syllabus. If you dont, then how can you expect to pass? You see what i mean?


I don't think I need to read a whole Essay to tell that it is based on faulty ground. If someone presents an Essay on Communism and the first few paragraphs of the Essay assert that no one has died or suffered due to the implementation of Communism in any country, I know that the Essay isn't worth my time, because it's ether greatly misinformed or the writer is heavily bias. Your essay isn't that bad, but the fact that very early on your already throwing out statements like Orochimaru "basically spanked" KN4 or that Orochimaru's Ksunagi Sword "Fodderized" KN4, both of which are just downright objectively false, the essay immediately looses all credibility in my eyes. That's not to say there aren't potentially good points in the essay later on, because maybe there are, but I'm not going to be engaged enough to read a 7 Post Giant Essay that immediately starts out w/ blatant falsehoods. And please don't respond to this post w/ "it isn't false, Orochimaru did Fodderize KN4", because we both know that is bullshit and that is only one example from many others that I could cite in the parts of the essay that I did read so don't waste my w/ that nonsense. Instead a much better outlet for your time would be to take a look back at your essay, and try to rewrite it in a more objective manner avoiding hyperbole and falsehoods to make your points. If you can write a good objective essay on Orochimaru > Itachi, I would be more than willing to read through it and give you my thoughts on it, as I said I admire the amount of work your willing to put into your response and i'm not completely closed minded to the possibility. 



> Im sorry, but, no one in the history of Naruto based forums, has formulated a better argument than i.


Yes they have. You put more effort into it than anyone else has ever done perhaps, but the lack of objectivity or even the semblance of trying to be objective stops it from being a viable essay, and therefore there are many essay that while not putting in the the level of commendable effort you put into yours are still much more readable and persuasive works on the subject on both sides of the argument.

Like I said come back to me w/ a more objective rewrite and i'll gladly read it, but every time I get to a blatant falsehood I will stop reading it, so just bare that in mind.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

Why does such a minority poster such as @IzayaOrihara 
Tag me in his posts 
Stop it 

You not worth debating with 

Itachi true standing is what was shown in the manga

He is equal to Jiriaya , above orochimaru and beneath nagato 

All these parallels have been drawn one way or the other through out the 700 chapters of manga 

The rest is fan stupidity arguing with direct statements from the manga

Reactions: Like 1


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## Matty (May 25, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Jiraiya is a mid end High Kage, and was stronger than Itachi, who was healthy in Part 1, so what the fuck are you talking about.
> 
> Itachi? Shat on? Hes the most wanked character in Naruto history. And expect people to shit on him when a fool makes a thread to suggest someone who lost to Hebi Sasuke could defeat Prime Nagato.



I never claimed he beats prime Nagato whatsoever. I don't think he even competes really. Nagato is another level.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

But Sasuke trolled orochimaru though


As I recall the uchiha seem to like to give orochimaru a spanking


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## IzayaOrihara (May 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I don't think I need to read a whole Essay to tell that it is based on faulty ground.


In the case of my essay, until you have read the whole thing, do not judge it please.


> If someone presents an Essay on Communism and the first few paragraphs of the Essay assert that no one has died or suffered due to the implementation of Communism in any country, I know that the Essay isn't worth my time, because it's ether greatly misinformed or the writer is heavily bias.


And do i have bias? No. My essay has more links/panels than it does my own writing lol because all im doing is regurgitating the manga and using basic reading comprehension that i learnt at age 9, to tell you what it all means.



> Your essay isn't that bad,


Clearly not, since @HandfullofNaruto, who once thought Itachi > Prime Orochimaru, now thinks Prime Orochimaru > Itachi.



> but the fact that very early on your already throwing out statements like Orochimaru "basically spanked" KN4 or that Orochimaru's Ksunagi Sword "Fodderized" KN4, both of which are just downright objectively false,






.... I apologise deeply if you think it was biased. What i should have said was "Orochimaru dealt a huge blow to kN4, and then the batttle was cut short"
Forgive me



> the essay immediately looses all credibility in my eyes.


Im just laughing, because you are saying this in a thread where people are arguing Itachi > Nagato.


> That's not to say there aren't potentially good points in the essay later on,


So read it then



> because maybe there are, but I'm not going to be engaged enough to read a 7 Post Giant Essay that immediately starts out w/ blatant falsehoods.


I will invite you to my conversation with @Icegaze, @UchihaX28 and @HandfullofNaruto when i can clear some space. My recent post there is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my essay, which i made almost a year ago, so i admit some of it was junk.



> And please don't respond to this post w/ "it isn't false, Orochimaru did Fodderize KN4", because we both know that is bullshit and that is only one example from many others that I could cite in the parts of the essay that I did read so don't waste my w/ that nonsense.


What are the other examples. Which sections of the essay did you even read?



> Instead a much better outlet for your time would be to take a look back at your essay, and try to rewrite it in a more objective manner avoiding hyperbole and falsehoods to make your points. If you can write a good objective essay on Orochimaru > Itachi, I would be more than willing to read through it and give you my thoughts on it, as I said I admire the amount of work your willing to put into your response and i'm not completely closed minded to the possibility.


Already have in a way. I will invite you to that conversation as soon as possible @Turrin. My recent post there slammed @Icegaze out the window. In fact, he barely is able to even substantiate an argument. @HandfullofNaruto and I soloed his arguments quicker than Itachi soloed Nerfed Orochimaru.


> Yes they have.


Show them to me then.



> You put more effort into it than anyone else has ever done perhaps, but the* lack of objectivity*


On a forum where people have argued that Madara cannot defeat Itachi?
Oh the irony.




> or even the semblance of trying to be objective stops it from being a viable essay, and therefore there are many essay that while not putting in the the level of commendable effort you put into yours are still much more readable and persuasive works on the subject on both sides of the argument.


I take this criticism on board.



> Like I said come back to me w/ a more objective rewrite and i'll gladly read it, but every time I get to a blatant falsehood I will stop reading it, so just bare that in mind.


My post in the conversation is nowhere near as long as the essay, so i will bring you into that conversation ASAP.



Icegaze said:


> Why does such a minority poster such as @IzayaOrihara
> Tag me in his posts
> Stop it
> 
> You not worth debating with



Because i countered you? I am a minority poster? Lol i'm one of the best debaters on this board. Go back to the conversation and you'll see.




> Stop it


@Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze




> Itachi true standing is what was shown in the manga


Yes. I know,
He is > Nerfed Oro? Okay.
Tell me something i didnt already know.


> He is equal to Jiriaya , above orochimaru and beneath nagato


He ran away from Jiraiya and would draw even when Kisame is with him, so no, he is < Jiraiya
And how can he be above Prime Oro? Prime Oro > Jiraiya > Itachi > Nerfed Oro > Prime Oro makes no sense at all.



> All these parallels have been drawn one way or the other through out the 700 chapters of manga


What parallels?



> The rest is fan stupidity arguing with direct statements from the manga


Ironic coming from you. Who did i argue with?
Was it a Sealed Orochimaru (in his lab with Kabuto) that said "I cannot defeat Itachi"? Yes or no?
Was it a Sealed Orochimaru (when fighting drugged Jiraiya) that said "I cannot beat the heir to the Uchiha Clan (oldest son of Fugaku)"? Yes or no?
Was it a sick (needed a new body) Orochimaru with no killing intent that had his hand cut off by Itachi? Yes or no?
Was it a Prime Orochimaru who was put above Tobirama in the manga/DB, above Jiraiya in the manga and compared to Prime Hiruzen once and Base Minato twice in the manga (all of whom > Itachi). Yes or no?
Was it Itachi who lost to the same Hebi Sasuke, who before and after that battle claimed Prime Orochimaru was leagues above him (Hebi Sasuke), according to both Sasuke and Suigetsu, on two separate occasions. Yes or no?
So how is it fan interpretation? I'm only telling you what i read in the comics that Kishi drew himself?
But I cannot force a fanboy to change his fanboyish ways.
Like i said in our conversation, i dont hate Itachi - im just looking at the manga objectively. I used to think Itachi was pretty cool until people started wanking him like they do Zoro in the One Piece Battledome. You just make him look pathetic by comparing him to a man who has a summon capable of partially tanking C0, or comparing him to another guy who defeated 100% Kyuubi, or another who destroyed Konoha in one attack. Itachi does not deserve this. Please, im begging you, stop treating itachi like this.
And how the living fuck would he draw with Jiraiya when large scale Yomi Numa (100%, not the 30% one that still managed to sink Bijuu sized snakes) and Gamarinsho solo him, whether he inside Susanoo or not?



Matty said:


> I never claimed he beats prime Nagato whatsoever. I don't think he even competes really. Nagato is another level.


I never said you did. I meant the OP who created this dastardly thread.



Icegaze said:


> But Sasuke trolled orochimaru though
> 
> 
> As I recall the uchiha seem to like to give orochimaru a spanking






Correction: As I recall the uchiha seem to like to give *NERFED/DEATHBED/SICK/NO KILLING INTENT/PLOT NOT ON HIS SIDE/SEALED* orochimaru a spanking

Reactions: Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2016)

such minorities
cutie


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## IzayaOrihara (May 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> such minorities
> cutie


Is that your comeback? Cute.
Shows you lack the ability to think before you speak. Shows you lack the ability to substantiate an argument.


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## IzayaOrihara (May 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Why does such a minority poster such as @IzayaOrihara
> Tag me in his posts
> Stop it
> 
> ...





Icegaze said:


> such minorities
> cutie



Im still laughing at this. Me? A minority poster? I put effort into my responses and use DB and manga scans lol. You wank DB and disregard manga when it suits you, but do the opposite when it doesnt. Double standard, my cute minor friend.

@Icegaze You reply such things as "cute".

Youre just salty about our Itachi vs Orochimaru discussion. So salty. I havent heard your response. You like to wank DB so i use it to prove you wrong how about that? @Icegaze.

Lol. Totsuka cutting Manda when it pierced a human chest and a whole human is smaller than the iris of Manda's eye. What a fool @Icegaze.

It is you who is minor. Not me. @Icegaze

Fan stupidity only comes from people like you.

You insult me because i choose not to wank your favourite character like 90% of this board? Too many LOLs.

I stay strong and stick to my opinion. Like @HandfulloNaruto said


HandfullofNaruto said:


> I second all of that and would also like to say:
> 
> If you are uninterested in this fight or you just *can't cope with reality* yet, there is no need to stay here.



Like they say cutie, ignorance is bliss. The problem with you is you only know how to spout rubbish. You can never prove your argument. You say @HandfullofNaruto is my dupe account (which is logically impossible as the mods always find out about dupe accounts) and can't even prove that lol.

Stay in the dark you blinded ignorant fool, and when you are ready to come out to the light, and into reality, read my recent post in our conversation. Either construct a response as detailled as mine rather than call me a minority, which doesnt matter and anyway isnt true as you are in the minority group of posters on this forum who don't know how to substantiate an argument, or otherwise, just concede to the fact Prime Orochimaru beats Itachi high - extreme diff. If you can't do either of those and continue to do what you are doing now, then you are beyond help, hopeless, a lost cause.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Android (May 25, 2016)

[/QUOTE]
this is so cool , where did you get this ???

Reactions: Like 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 25, 2016)

this is so cool , where did you get this ??? [/QUOTE]
Google images lol
I was originally looking for this (lol i forgot you used it in this thread i dunno why i was searching for it):

But i couldnt find it so used that one instead
But i like the Minato one better. Its my new sig lol

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Turrin (May 25, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> In the case of my essay, until you have read the whole thing, do not judge it please.
> 
> And do i have bias? No. My essay has more links/panels than it does my own writing lol because all im doing is regurgitating the manga and using basic reading comprehension that i learnt at age 9, to tell you what it all means.
> 
> ...


Just because you can convince a few posters doesn't change the fact that your Essay is ether bias or vastly misinformed, and again I don't have to read the entire essay to know this, as there are falsehoods right from the start.



> ... I apologise deeply if you think it was biased. What i should have said was "Orochimaru dealt a huge blow to kN4, and then the batttle was cut short"
> Forgive me


I don't think it is biased, I know it is ether bias or misinformed because what you stated in the Essay as fact, objectively simply did not occur. 

Even Orochimaru dealing a huge blow to KN4, is objectively false, because literally in thee next panel Orochimaru says Ksunagi sword didn't even pierce the shroud and KN4 just tosses it aside:
Naruto casually shunshined from his office to Kakashi's nose on the Hokage monument and grabbed Bolt's arm before he could release a shuriken from his hand

Objectively what occurred in that fight is Orochimaru landed an completely ineffectual blow.



> Im just laughing, because you are saying this in a thread where people are arguing Itachi > Nagato.


So because there are other people who aren't credible that suddenly justifies the lack of credibility of the essay you keep touting as the best Orochimaru > Itachi essay ever created; Yeah no that's not how this works; your work will be judge on it's own merit.



> I will invite you to my conversation with @Icegaze, @UchihaX28 and @HandfullofNaruto when i can clear some space. My recent post there is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my essay, which i made almost a year ago, so i admit some of it was junk.


If you think these responses are more objective give me the link and I will read them, but as I said before I will stop reading the moment you throw around any kind of blatant falsehood.



> What are the other examples. Which sections of the essay did you even read?



1) "Oro had no arms and no ninjutsu. At all. Zero." - Straight up false as he blatantly uses Nan no Kaizō Jutsu and Kabuto summons for him multiple times

2)"obviously backup means more Akatsuki" - No it doesn't, from someone who understands the original Japanese it's more of a figure of speech if anything, and certainly there is no evidence that it *obviously* means more Akatsuki

3)"Because a Rinnegan user with 'CCTV' vision from other bodies couldn't react to this level of speed:" - False, Rinnegan users react fine to SM-Jiraiya's speed later

4)"that same Jiraiya (who Pain/Nagato admitted inferiority to) constantly admitted inferiority to Orochimaru." - Pain/Nagato never admitted inferiority to Jiriaya and Jiraiya never admitted inferiority to Orochimaru, so that's blatantly false (and you go on about both of these falsehoods for like 3 more paragraphs)

5)"Kisame getting fodderised by a V2 Eight Tails Jin." - This is straight up false as Kisame didn't get fodderized by B, he's the one who beat B

6) You draw some nonsensical comparison between 50%-Kurama and KN4, and us it to falsely place KN4 above B, and than use that to falsely place Orochimaru above any perfect Jinchuuriki based on the false premise that he fodderized KN4 - All of this is falsehoods and nonsensical

7) You then go on to say Hebi-Sasuke beat Itachi - Which is false as Itachi allowed Hebi-Sasuke to win

8)You than claim that Orochimaru who fought Jiraiya/Tsunade in the Sannin duel was stronger than the one who fought Itachi - Which is absolutely objectively false

9)Etc.. Oh believe me I could go on.

That's like 8 things from the first post that actual has "evidence" in it and is not your intro. And that's about as far as I got because almost all the premises of every argument in that first post were objectively false.

And no i'm not going to debate you on any of these points, because they are so obviously false that I do not feel I should need to do so.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sapherosth (May 26, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> In the case of my essay, until you have read the whole thing, do not judge it please.
> 
> And do i have bias? No. My essay has more links/panels than it does my own writing lol because all im doing is regurgitating the manga and using basic reading comprehension that i learnt at age 9, to tell you what it all means.
> 
> ...









Can someone give him the page where Itachi tells Kakashi that only someone with Uchiha blood and Sharingan can defeat him please........

That way, we could use his logic and take Itachi's words at face value and act as if it's a fact?


He also likes to mention the fact that Itachi lost to Sasuke fair and square, as if Itachi wasn't NERFED/DEATHBED/SICK/NO KILLING INTENT/PLOT NOT ON HIS SIDE/AND SEALING OROCHIMARU'S STRONGEST TECHNIQUE AND FORM WHILST BLIND AND ON HIS DEATHBED.


So yeah, your entire post is full of shit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Matty (May 26, 2016)

I'm the OP though Izaya 

I still never claimed he beats nagato. I was just drunk praising one of my favorite characters.

Don't be surprised if, on my weekend, we get a Sasori thread

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2016)

My spidey senses are tingling did a minority just tag me again

Reactions: Agree 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (May 26, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Just because you can convince a few posters doesn't change the fact that your Essay is ether bias or vastly misinformed, and again I don't have to read the entire essay to know this, as there are falsehoods right from the start.
> 
> I don't think it is biased, I know it is ether bias or misinformed because what you stated in the Essay as fact, objectively simply did not occur.
> Even Orochimaru dealing a huge blow to KN4, is objectively false, because literally in thee next panel Orochimaru says Ksunagi sword didn't even pierce the shroud and KN4 just tosses it aside:
> ...



I thought the same thing. I even told him that. I criticized his essay for days on end. I told him how it was riddled with A>B>C logic and how not all of it was fact. Then he said "youre right, however..." Then showed me several scenarios backed up by the manga in which Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi. If you can prove him wrong I'm am ALL for it! Until then..



> 1) "Oro had no arms and no ninjutsu. At all. Zero." - Straight up false as he blatantly uses Nan no Kaizō Jutsu and Kabuto summons for him multiple times



This is supposedly performed with the help of surgery, which lines up with what the manga shows us. In the sense that he used it without arms. Kabuto can use jutsu, not him.



> 2)"obviously backup means more Akatsuki" - No it doesn't, from someone who understands the original Japanese it's more of a figure of speech if anything, and certainly there is no evidence that it *obviously* means more Akatsuki



I believe I said the same thing. It's hard to say who they consider backup. The fact that the Akatsuki was a group of Ninja was already well established. I don't think with Logic Jiraya can face three Akatsuki members but I don't know who they could have been talking about. Maybe Itachi was just trying to prevent backup from coming since he probably had no real intent to face Jiraiya. "Even with backup we can't win" if I heard Itachi say that I'd take him pretty seriously lol. 

3)"Because a Rinnegan user with 'CCTV' vision from other bodies couldn't react to this level of speed:" - False, Rinnegan users react fine to SM-Jiraiya's speed later

I don't remember the context. The specific point Izaya was trying to make was..? 

4)"that same Jiraiya (who Pain/Nagato admitted inferiority to) constantly admitted inferiority to Orochimaru." - Pain/Nagato never admitted inferiority to Jiriaya and Jiraiya never admitted inferiority to Orochimaru, so that's blatantly false (and you go on about both of these falsehoods for like 3 more paragraphs)

Nagato/Pain says Jiraya would have won if he had known the truth but whatever. Its just known that Jiraya is inferior to Orochimaru. He couldn't bring his friend back to the leaf, he followed him all those years, one summons a snake the other a toad lol. True Jiraya isn't constantly complaining about Orochimarus strength but we can safely say Orochimaru > Jiraya can't we? 



> 5)"Kisame getting fodderised by a V2 Eight Tails Jin." - This is straight up false as Kisame didn't get fodderized by B, he's the one who beat B
> 6) You draw some nonsensical comparison between 50%-Kurama and KN4, and us it to falsely place KN4 above B, and than use that to falsely place Orochimaru above any perfect Jinchuuriki based on the false premise that he fodderized KN4 - All of this is falsehoods and nonsensical



Again I don't know the specific point Izaya was trying to make. However Orochimarus fight with KN4 in his failing body was a good example of what he's capable of. If Izaya was saying Prime Orochimaru was on level with perfect jinchuriki because he dealt with KN4 in a failing body, I might disagree with that. I'd have to hear a clear explanation first.

7) You then go on to say Hebi-Sasuke beat Itachi - Which is false as Itachi allowed Hebi-Sasuke to win

True, he did allow Sasuke to win. He also couldn't hold back at some parts. Amaterasu for example. I'm not saying he was gonna let Sasuke die but he wasn't exactly using feather pillows now was he? It was all an act to awaken the Mangekyo and give him his little avenger orgasm he'd been waiting for. Again I criticized these statements but for being irrelevant to the actual battle.



> 8)You than claim that Orochimaru who fought Jiraiya/Tsunade in the Sannin duel was stronger than the one who fought Itachi - Which is absolutely objectively false
> 9)Etc.. Oh believe me I could go on.



Which Itachi fight? If he was referring to when they were in the Akatsuki then I don't know about that. If he's referring to Hydra vs Susanoo then yes that Orochimaru is stronger. (Actually check that, I only considered him stronger because of Manda but I forgot he cannot summon without the help of Kabuto so..)but again this unrelated to the actual battle scenario which is the main part I agree with. 



> That's like 8 things from the first post that actual has "evidence" in it and is not your intro. And that's about as far as I got because almost all the premises of every argument in that first post were objectively false.





> And no i'm not going to debate you on any of these points, because they are so obviously false that I do not feel I should need to do so.



I agree the debate is just about Itachi vs Orochimaru.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Android (May 26, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> this is so cool , where did you get this ???


Google images lol
I was originally looking for this (lol i forgot you used it in this thread i dunno why i was searching for it):

But i couldnt find it so used that one instead
But i like the Minato one better. Its my new sig lol[/QUOTE]
Awesome , even better LOL


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## IzayaOrihara (May 26, 2016)

Matty said:


> I'm the OP though Izaya
> 
> I still never claimed he beats nagato. I was just drunk praising one of my favorite characters.
> 
> Don't be surprised if, on my weekend, we get a Sasori thread


Sorry lol i thought it was @UchihaX28 I dunno lol i was so sure i saw his name at the top of the first page
Never mind anyway
And yeah if you admit you were under the influence of alcoholic substance then i can overlook this one


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## IzayaOrihara (May 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Can someone give him the page where Itachi tells Kakashi that only someone with Uchiha blood and Sharingan can defeat him please........


Give it to me then.
I was so sure that meant "only someone with the Uchiha bloodline + Sharingan Kekkei Genkai can break out of Tsukuyomi"
By your logic Hashirama cannot beat Itachi you absolute nutter. Seeing as Tobirama defeated Izuna, i doubt that statement meant what you think it did.
Thats funny anyway considering Itachi defeated Sharingan/Uchiha (he raped Sasukee, and then let him win against him slightly) yet ran away from a Sannin (The Gallant Jiraiya Sama, the Great Toad Spirit of the Myoboku Mountain !!!! *dramatic music plays*)


> That way, we could use his logic and take Itachi's words at face value and act as if it's a fact?


I'm not surprised you would think Hashirama < Itachi. Lol moving on.


> He also likes to mention the fact that Itachi lost to Sasuke fair and square,


I never mentioned that. If i did, it was by accident, as you can see above i admitted it wasnt a fair win.


> as if Itachi wasn't NERFED/DEATHBED/SICK/NO KILLING INTENT/PLOT NOT ON HIS SIDE/AND SEALING OROCHIMARU'S STRONGEST TECHNIQUE AND FORM WHILST BLIND AND ON HIS DEATHBED.


Whatever. I know what happened. Read my essay. I already know Orochimaru can beat itachi high/extreme diff. You spouting rubbish and/or things ive already addressed a million times means nothing to me.



> So yeah, your entire post is full of shit.


Thats you actually.



Icegaze said:


> My spidey senses are tingling did a minority just tag me again


@Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze
@Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze
@Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze
@Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze
@Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze@Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze @Icegaze
Now go and counter my reply in our conversation, @THE guy who thinks Yamata is bigger than Manda lool. If you cannot counter, then just say so and stop wasting my time with your childish tendencies. You give me 10 and i'll give you 100, @Icegaze 
Is that clear, @Icegaze?

I should copy that debate and post it here to embarrass you, but i wont do that.



Turrin said:


> Just because you can convince a few posters doesn't change the fact that your Essay is ether bias or vastly misinformed, and again I don't have to read the entire essay to know this, as there are falsehoods right from the start.


Whatever you're in the conversation now so see it for yourself


> I don't think it is biased, I know it is ether bias or misinformed because what you stated in the Essay as fact, objectively simply did not occur.


Like what? Again, you say bias, in a thread where people are arguing Itachi > Nagato, an unorthodox opinion. Why am i not allowed to do the same? And i have manga scans to back it up unlike the fantasy of itachi being relevant to Nagato.


> Even Orochimaru dealing a huge blow to KN4, is objectively false, because literally in thee next panel Orochimaru says Ksunagi sword didn't even pierce the shroud and KN4 just tosses it aside:
> that the previous Kages had forbidden it


It pushed him a considerable distance back


> Objectively what occurred in that fight is Orochimaru landed an completely ineffectual blow.


Okay i give up on that point. I'm not surprised. it's forum nature to water down a Sannin's feats when ever they are paired with itachi or tobirama in battle. Its happened time and time again. Not just with them, even with Kakuzu, someone watered Tsunade down just to make her look bad.

Yeah KN4 fodderised Oro. Is that what you want me to say?
Itachi > jiraiya
Jiraiya was shit to Pein
Is that want you want me to do? Water down the Sannin so that Itachi can have a chance?



> So because there are other people who aren't credible that suddenly justifies the lack of credibility of the essay you keep touting as the best Orochimaru > Itachi essay ever created; Yeah no that's not how this works; your work will be judge on it's own merit.


Okay boss!
Rate my recent response out of 10. In the discussion i invited you to? Manga scans, panels, analysis, evaluation, looking at both sides? Did i not do that?


> If you think these responses are more objective give me the link and I will read them, but as I said before I will stop reading the moment you throw around any kind of blatant falsehood.


No dont do that. Read the whole thing. If i get one question wrong on a maths paper do i fail the whole exam? No. Read all of it and give an overall judgement. So what if i accidentally write one sentence of bias? no one is perfect. 

There are worse people on this forum when it comes to bias?



> 1) "Oro had no arms and no ninjutsu. At all. Zero." - Straight up false as he blatantly uses Nan no Kaizō Jutsu and Kabuto summons for him multiple times


Yeah Kabuto summoned for him? *When Kabuto was sent to go and clean up the fodders (Naruto, Shizune, Tonton, Gamakichi, Gamatatsu loool, phobic Tsunade) he didnt have anyone to use jutsu for him. And he used Nan no Kaizo with his head and tongue?*

So what part of it is false

THIS IS THE PROBLEM - NATURAL BIAS AGAINST ANYONE THAT IS VS ITACHI


> 2)"obviously backup means more Akatsuki" - No it doesn't, from someone who understands the original Japanese it's more of a figure of speech if anything, and certainly there is no evidence that it *obviously* means more Akatsuki


Then you tell me who it means. Im sorry if it makes me biased, but if you cant give me a good enough possibility for who it meant, then im assuming it means backup from that same organisation Itachi and Kisame were working for.


> 3)"Because a Rinnegan user with 'CCTV' vision from other bodies couldn't react to this level of speed:" - False, Rinnegan users react fine to SM-Jiraiya's speed later


Yeah ignore that whatever it was part 2 of the essay
I admit some of it is wrong.
@HandfulloNaruto disregarded the whole of that section

Part 3/4/5/6 is the bit i need to drill into everyone's head


> 4)"that same Jiraiya (who Pain/Nagato admitted inferiority to) constantly admitted inferiority to Orochimaru." - Pain/Nagato never admitted inferiority to Jiriaya and Jiraiya never admitted inferiority to Orochimaru, so that's blatantly false (and you go on about both of these falsehoods for like 3 more paragraphs)


WHAAAAAT THEEEE FUCCCCK!!! AAARRRRGGHH! IM SO MAAAAD RIGHT NOW AAAAAAAAAAAAH!
OH MY FUCKING GOD
AAAAAH
OH SHIT OH SHIT O SHIT
Restricted Pain never admitted inferiority to Jiraiya (the whole knowledge thing)


Jiraiya never admitted inferiority did he? Well he said "I couldnt save my friend" - he lost to Orochimaru in the past ...
Maybe what i should have was that he was portrayed below him

*Spoiler*: __ 





















> The title of the Sannin in the original Japanese is 三竦み or Sansukumi, which roughly translates to "three way deadlock". Kishi himself explains the meaning of Sansukumi in a interview with Shonnen Jump:
> 
> Kishi, _"The triad of snake, snail and frog is from Japanese mythology. The snake is more powerful then the frog, the snail is more powerful then the snake, and the frog is more powerful then the snail, Making a paper, rock, scissors" sort of situation. These three are collectively called the "Sansukumi"."_
> 
> ...



But of course, Jiraiya > Oro isnt it. Isnt that what you want me to say? So you can bring him down closer to Itachi? My left eye.


> 5)"Kisame getting fodderised by a V2 Eight Tails Jin." - This is straight up false as Kisame didn't get fodderized by B, he's the one who beat B


That was referring to him taking a Lariat that would have killed him if he didnt have Bijuu chakra from Samehada, used as a comparison to wank Tsunade (V2 Bee = V1 or V2 Ei i dunno who + Onoki heavyweight jutsu < byakugo Tsunade against Madara susanoo ribcage) to wank Oro for tanking Tsuna punch, even if it was rusty Tsuna

That was just hyping Oro, as the thread was analysing him as well as talking about Itachi
I never implied Kisame < Bee. Hes the one that won the fucking fight.


> 6) You draw some nonsensical comparison between 50%-Kurama and KN4, and us it to falsely place KN4 above B, and than use that to falsely place Orochimaru above any perfect Jinchuuriki based on the false premise that he fodderized KN4 - All of this is falsehoods and nonsensical


Ignore part 2 of the essay
I was angry at Itachi wankers and in my feelings when i wrote that
You know what
IGNORE THE ESSAY - JUST SEE MY POST IN THE CONVERSATION, ITS MUCH MORE REVISED


> 7) You then go on to say Hebi-Sasuke beat Itachi - Which is false as Itachi allowed Hebi-Sasuke to win


Ignore the essay
Im done
Itachi fought Sasuke and lost
I have a problem cos even if manga said itachi let him win, he fired 2 bursts of Amaterasu at his beloved brother, and used Tsukuyomi on his brother
What if Sasuke didnt have Kawarimi?What would Itachi have done - oh shit i killed Sasuke?
He went all out in my opinion using his best powers
But ill overlook it cos i bow to the manga, not to you


> 8)You than claim that Orochimaru who fought Jiraiya/Tsunade in the Sannin duel was stronger than the one who fought Itachi - Which is absolutely objectively false


Orochimaru w/ Manda + 2 Boss Snakes (due to Kabuto) > Immobile, PIS/CIS Restricted Orochimaru IMO
You can disagree if you want, but Yamata alone < Manda
Yamata got put down by Itachi in his grave
Manda is much bigger, has better feats, almost killed both Sannin
Plus Oro didnt use Kusanagi even if he pulled it out against Itachi
He used it well against Sannin


> And no i'm not going to debate you on any of these points, because they are so obviously false that I do not feel I should need to do so.


Okay
@HandfulloNaruto: I thought the same thing. I even told him that. I criticized his essay for days on end. I told him how it was riddled with A>B>C logic and how not all of it was fact. Then he said "youre right, however..." Then showed me several scenarios backed up by the manga in which Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi. If you can prove him wrong I'm am ALL for it! Until then..
Exactly
This is supposedly performed with the help of surgery, which lines up with what the manga shows us. In the sense that he used it without arms. Kabuto can use jutsu, not him.
Exactly
I believe I said the same thing. It's hard to say who they consider backup. The fact that the Akatsuki was a group of Ninja was already well established. I don't think with Logic Jiraya can face three Akatsuki members but I don't know who they could have been talking about. Maybe Itachi was just trying to prevent backup from coming since he probably had no real intent to face Jiraiya. "Even with backup we can't win" if I heard Itachi say that I'd take him pretty seriously lol.

3)"Because a Rinnegan user with 'CCTV' vision from other bodies couldn't react to this level of speed:" - False, Rinnegan users react fine to SM-Jiraiya's speed later

I don't remember the context. The specific point Izaya was trying to make was..? 
ME neither TBH
4)"that same Jiraiya (who Pain/Nagato admitted inferiority to) constantly admitted inferiority to Orochimaru." - Pain/Nagato never admitted inferiority to Jiriaya and Jiraiya never admitted inferiority to Orochimaru, so that's blatantly false (and you go on about both of these falsehoods for like 3 more paragraphs)

Nagato/Pain says Jiraya would have won if he had known the truth but whatever. Its just known that Jiraya is inferior to Orochimaru. He couldn't bring his friend back to the leaf, he followed him all those years, one summons a snake the other a toad lol. True Jiraya isn't constantly complaining about Orochimarus strength but we can safely say Orochimaru > Jiraya can't we? 
Exactly
I can list 10 things which prove Orochimaru's superiority
1. Orochimaru was more talented as a child (portrayal)
2. Jiraiya couldnt stop Orochimaru from leaving Konoha
3. Orochimaru wasnt injured vs Prime hanzo yet Jiraiya was (Tsunade is a medic so she has an excuse)
4. Hiruzen preferred Orochimaru
5. Hiruzen considered Orochimaru for Hokage first
6. Hiruzen/Anko nominated Minato as a candidate to beat Orochimaru, but Jiraiya's name was never brought up
- I dont care what Ebisu said about only one Sannin can beat another, Hiruzen was their teacher and Anko was Orochimaru's student, they know Sannin's strength better than Ebisu who they dont know from a broken tree
7. Sansukumi of Japanese Literature which Kishimoto used as an isipiration says Slug > *Snake > Frog* > Slug
8. Orochimaru had no arms, but Jiraiya, even though drugged had jutsu and yet still got his ass beaten
9. Manda defeated Gamabunta, and i have an essay which proves this solidifies the Sansukumi (ask if you want the link)
10. Jiraiya almost died against KN4 Naruto. Orochimaru while Nerfed held his own. 
* 11. Who cares about the fucking hype, portrayal feats etc. Orochimaru's abilities > Jiraiya's abilities whether you like it or not

Again I don't know the specific point Izaya was trying to make. However Orochimarus fight with KN4 in his failing body was a good example of what he's capable of. If Izaya was saying Prime Orochimaru was on level with perfect jinchuriki because he dealt with KN4 in a failing body, I might disagree with that. I'd have to hear a clear explanation first.

7) You then go on to say Hebi-Sasuke beat Itachi - Which is false as Itachi allowed Hebi-Sasuke to win

True, he did allow Sasuke to win. *He also couldn't hold back at some parts. Amaterasu for example. I'm not saying he was gonna let Sasuke die but he wasn't exactly using feather pillows now was he?* It was all an act to awaken the Mangekyo and give him his little avenger orgasm he'd been waiting for. Again I criticized these statements but for being irrelevant to the actual battle.

*MY POINT EXACTLY*

Which Itachi fight? If he was referring to when they were in the Akatsuki then I don't know about that. If he's referring to Hydra vs Susanoo then yes that Orochimaru is stronger. (Actually check that, I only considered him stronger because of Manda but I forgot he cannot summon without the help of Kabuto so..)but again this unrelated to the actual battle scenario which is the main part I agree with.
I agree the debate is just about Itachi vs Orochimaru.
Exactly

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (May 26, 2016)

My problem is this @Turrin - same problem i had in my conversation with @Icegaze and @UchihaX28 Instead of focusing on Itachi, they were arguing over Manda vs Yamata and which was bigger/stronger (when it is clear in the manga which is > DB)

You are doing the same thing? Arguing with me over whether Jiraiya claimed inferiority to Orochimaru. Do i give a darn (no offense im calm lol)? Like, we know Oro > Jiraiya. You know Kisame beat Killer Bee but really, who gives a single fuck?

Lets discuss OROCHIMARU vs ITACHI
Read my post in our conversation
Stop avoiding the main topic
Stop arguing over things that are already established such as Orochi > Jiraya and lets talk about something which (for you) is not established, the possibility (fact for me) that Prime Orochimaru defeats Healthy (Part 1 Health; Part 2 Feats) Itachi Uchiha with High Difficulty. I dont care about what Pain said about Jiraiya, or Itachi running away, or Kisame, Tsunade, Killer bee and everyones mother and father. Lets just discuss the battle from now on.

If you have the interest, determination and patience to find out who is stronger for yourself, read my response to @Icegaze in the conversation i invited you to. We are no longer discussing Jiraiya. We know Orochimaru > him and beats him with Insane Difficulty. I apologise for bringing it up if i did (well, you did) but i wrote about it in my essay.

This is the title of the thread 

I was analysing Orochimaru as well as his strength in relation to Itachi, that was because Orochimaru was underrated at the time i made the essay (people saying Raikage can beat him and all sorts) but now no one underrates him anymore so forget about all that analysis now. 

This is Orochimaru vs Itachi. Forget about the whole essay. Just focus on the conversation I invited you to @Turrin and the response i did for @Icegaze. That is what i want you to read.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2016)

Did I just get tagged again

Reactions: Like 4


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## HandfullofNaruto (May 26, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> My problem is this @Turrin - same problem i had in my conversation with @Icegaze and @UchihaX28 Instead of focusing on Itachi, they were arguing over Manda vs Yamata and which was bigger/stronger (when it is clear in the manga which is > DB) You are doing the same thing? Arguing with me over whether Jiraiya claimed inferiority to Orochimaru. Do i give a darn (no offense im calm lol)? Like, we know Oro > Jiraiya. You know Kisame beat Killer Bee but really, who gives a single fuck? Lets discuss OROCHIMARU vs ITACHI
> Read my post in our conversation
> Stop avoiding the main topic
> Stop arguing over things that are already established such as Orochi > Jiraya and lets talk about something which (for you) is not established, the possibility (fact for me) that Prime Orochimaru defeats Healthy (Part 1 Health; Part 2 Feats) Itachi Uchiha with High Difficulty. I dont care about what Pain said about Jiraiya, or Itachi running away, or Kisame, Tsunade, Killer bee and everyones mother and father. Lets just discuss the battle from now on. If you have the interest, determination and patience to find out who is stronger for yourself, read my response to @Icegaze in the conversation i invited you to. We are no longer discussing Jiraiya. We know Orochimaru > him and beats him with Insane Difficulty. I apologise for bringing it up if i did (well, you did) but i wrote about it in my essay. This is the title of the thread
> I was analysing Orochimaru as well as his strength in relation to Itachi, that was because Orochimaru was underrated at the time i made the essay (people saying Raikage can beat him and all sorts) but now no one underrates him anymore so forget about all that analysis now. This is Orochimaru vs Itachi. Forget about the whole essay. Just focus on the conversation I invited you to @Turrin and the response i did for @Icegaze. That is what i want you to read.



I second that.


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2016)

Lol
A dupe agreeing

Reactions: Winner 2 | Informative 1


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## IchLiebe (May 26, 2016)

Matty said:


> Damn didn't realize people hated itachi so much... I understand some of his fans are insufferable but he's still a great and powerful character



"Great and powerful" LOL. For starters, he fucking sucks. I mean god awful, not one good thing about him... my bad there is one thing. He's fucking dead. Konohamaru would beat his ass no dif so not powerful, not even close.



UchihaX28 said:


> Like IchLiebe.
> 
> I liked IchLiebe, but damn is he a massive Itachi hater. I even remember the day I joined, people were already bagging on Itachi.



Words cannot even begin to describe the feeling. But definitely down the hatred road.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1 | Dislike 1


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## Turrin (May 27, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I thought the same thing. I even told him that. I criticized his essay for days on end. I told him how it was riddled with A>B>C logic and how not all of it was fact. Then he said "youre right, however..." Then showed me several scenarios backed up by the manga in which Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi. If you can prove him wrong I'm am ALL for it! Until
> then..


Such as... I mean like I told him feel free to link me to these things and I will read them, but every time I get to an objectively false statement I will stop. Fuck I'll even make it 3 objectively false statements and I'll stop. 2 I'll forgive and just point out they are wrong, but like 9+ statements in just Part 2 of his essay alone is too much.



> This is supposedly performed with the help of surgery, which lines up with what the manga shows us. In the sense that he used it without arms. Kabuto can use jutsu, not him.


Kishimoto states in the Data-book that Nan no Kaizō Jutsu is well a Jutsu, therefore he could indeed use Jutsu. The only Jutsu he could not use are the ones that required the use of his arms. Which considering his main fighting style is based on snake techniques still leaves quite a few options open to him.



> I believe I said the same thing. It's hard to say who they consider backup. The fact that the Akatsuki was a group of Ninja was already well established. I don't think with Logic Jiraya can face three Akatsuki members but I don't know who they could have been talking about. Maybe Itachi was just trying to prevent backup from coming since he probably had no real intent to face Jiraiya. "Even with backup we can't win" if I heard Itachi say that I'd take him pretty seriously lol.


As I said it's a figure of speech. Like if I said dam this guy is good fighter, he's better than me, I bet even w/ 3 more guys backing me up I couldn't win. I'm just using that figure of speech to illustrate how good that guy is, i'm not really assigning any specific identity to those 3 guys. Basically for all intents and purposes, according to the actual Japanese linguistics at play, we should assume that "back-up" is referring to random mooks; not Akatsuki members



> I don't remember the context. The specific point Izaya was trying to make was..?


You don't need to, he said Rinnegan couldn't react to SM-Jiraiya's speed, we know that it can, hence that statement is objectively false.



> Nagato/Pain says Jiraya would have won if he had known the truth but whatever.


Saying X can win under the right circumstances is not the same as admitting inferiority. It's dishonest to claim that it is.



> Its just known that Jiraya is inferior to Orochimaru. He couldn't bring his friend back to the leaf, he followed him all those years, one summons a snake the other a toad lol.


Naruto couldn't bring back Sasuke until the last few chapters of the manga, but are you going to honestly make the claim that Naruto was always weaker than Sasuke until that final battle? At no other point in 4 Years that transpired after VOTE was Naruto stronger than Sasuke? Like when Naruto got SM, but Sasuke was still just beginning to learn how to use MS, and even Zetsu considered Naruto stronger?

In reality, Naruto would pull ahead of Sasuke at times, than Sasuke would catch up and pull ahead of Naruto, and than the reverse would happen again. So Jiraiya being inferior 16+ Years prior to PI/PII to Orochimaru has absolutely no baring on whose superior in PI/PII, anymore than Naruto being inferior at VOTE to Sasuke, has any baring on whose inferior/superior in say the Pain Arc.



> True Jiraya isn't constantly complaining about Orochimarus strength but we can safely say Orochimaru > Jiraya can't we?


To me it's extremely clear in the manga that Jiraiya > Orochimaru, if you want to see my thoughts on it I will direct you to what I said this post:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1) Kishimoto made a point of giving Jiraiya better stats than ether two Sannin in the Data-book.

2) Jiraiya is the only Sannin Kishimoto allowed to step top Akatsuki members. Orochimaru admitted inferiority and was punked twice by Itachi. Tsuande was punked by Pain and had to rely on Naruto to stop him. On the other hand Itachi believed Jiraiya could defeat him. Jiraiya was able to step to Pain to a much greater extent than ether Tsunade or Orochimaru was allowed to step to Itachi; and Pain even admitted w/o his secret he probably couldn't have beaten Jiraiya.

3) Kishimoto allowed Jiraiya to master his Toad Arts to the point of being able to use Sennin Modo, while he did not allowed Orochimaru or Tsunade to do the same w/ their Snake/Slug Arts; meaning Jiraiya is the only Sannin to have advanced to the point of being able to use Sennin Modo, which is clearly the ultimate form of each Animals Arts.

4) Jiraiya was objectively treated as the best Ninja in accordance w/ Kishimoto values out of the Sannin. Being called the finest Ninja by Minato and even Obito admitting that his Nindo was defeated by Jiraiya's. As well as Jiraiya's nindo leading to the conversion of Nagato and ultimate salvation of the Ninja world through passing it on to Naruto. Jiraiya also was the one of the three Sannin that was really meant to be Hokage.






> I don't know the specific point Izaya was trying to make


Here's the thing I don't know ether because that whole section was so riddled w/ falsehoods I couldn't even follow it.



> True, he did allow Sasuke to win. He also couldn't hold back at some parts. Amaterasu for example. I'm not saying he was gonna let Sasuke die but he wasn't exactly using feather pillows now was he? It was all an act to awaken the Mangekyo and give him his little avenger orgasm he'd been waiting for. Again I criticized these statements but for being irrelevant to the actual battle.


I agree that Itachi wasn't using feather pillows, but he wasn't going all out ether, the manga tells us that if he did Sasuke would be dead, so that's all the confirmation we really need that Itachi > Hebi-Sasuke. And that's an Itachi who was arguably in his worst condition as his illness continued to worsen as time went on, which is noted by Zetsu being shocked at Itachi's performance at times, suggesting he's seen Itachi perform better, I.E. a healthier Itachi. That's not to say I believe in this myth of Prime/Healthy Itachi, that Itachi-fans try to push on people, but I do think Itachi was worse off than usual in that fight, and yet he was still better.



> Which Itachi fight? If he was referring to when they were in the Akatsuki then I don't know about that. If he's referring to Hydra vs Susanoo then yes that Orochimaru is stronger. (Actually check that, I only considered him stronger because of Manda but I forgot he cannot summon without the help of Kabuto so..)but again this unrelated to the actual battle scenario which is the main part I agree with.


Orochimaru who fought Itachi the first time could use all of his Jutsu including summoning Manda, so that Orochimaru is obviously > than one who can't use any Jutsu that required Arms and had to take medicine to handle the damage of the soul rip. The Orochimaru that fought Itachi the second time, was able to use Yamata no Orochi which is stated to be > Manda in strength, though armless Oro of the Sannin duel couldn't summon Manda on his own anyway.



IzayaOrihara said:


> My problem is this @Turrin - same problem i had in my conversation with @Icegaze and @UchihaX28 Instead of focusing on Itachi,


Izaya i'm arguing about points you raised in a thread entitled Orochimaru vs Itachi. So to now claim they are irrelevant to that topic only makes the essay seem even more intellectually dishonest.



> Stop arguing over things that are already established such as Orochi > Jiraya and lets talk about something which (for you) is not established


You don't seem to get it, none of these things are established for me. Yamata no Orochi being inferior to Manda is not something established for me because I'm not going to ignore what the author states about the subject, simply because he stated it in a Data-Book instead of the Manga. I do not think Orochi > Jiraiya is established by the author, rather I think the author strongly implies it is Jiraiya whose > Orochimaru. And so on.

So the reason why these points matter to me and others, is we don't agree that these things have been established. So when you write entire paragraphs based on the idea that Orochimaru > Jiraiya, like you go on for several Paragraphs how Itachi being weaker than Jiraiya must mean he is weaker than Orochimaru, because Orochimaru is obviously > Jiraiya. But that's not convincing to me, because I do not think, actually I objectively know, that Orochimaru > Jiraiya is not a indisputable fact, and it's something that can be debated. So the entire premise for those paragraphs falls apart because your assuming something is accepted as fact when it isn't. That's just one example, there are many others throughout what I read where you make the same critical flaws.




> This is Orochimaru vs Itachi. Forget about the whole essay. Just focus on the conversation I invited you to @Turrin and the response i did for @Icegaze. That is what i want you to read.


Okay link me to it than, but as I said before I will stop after 1 or at the very most 3 objectively false statements, so just bare that I mind.


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## Sapherosth (May 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Such as... I mean like I told him feel free to link me to these things and I will read them, but every time I get to an objectively false statement I will stop. Fuck I'll even make it 3 objectively false statements and I'll stop. 2 I'll forgive and just point out they are wrong, but like 9+ statements in just Part 2 of his essay alone is too much.
> 
> 
> Kishimoto states in the Data-book that Nan no Kaizō Jutsu is well a Jutsu, therefore he could indeed use Jutsu. The only Jutsu he could not use are the ones that required the use of his arms. Which considering his main fighting style is based on snake techniques still leaves quite a few options open to him.
> ...






Your post is full of shit.

"Itachi believed Jiraiya can beat him" ?    Wtf is this shit?

Itachi also believes that only someone with a sharingan and Uchiha blood can beat him.  Maybe I should start using that as a fact.

Your logic is seriously flawed. If you want to take that statement as fact then you would have to take all the others as fact as well. Stop being such a hypocrite.

It's literally selective wanking.


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