# Yata's Mirror vs. Obito Nunoboko Shield



## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

I felt in light of Kaguya's hyping the Mirror even more then originally this thread needed to be revisited. Just assume the Mirror can stretch to the same size as the Nunoboko Shield. Which is the better defense?

*Yata's Mirror*

*Spoiler*: __ 








*Nunoboko Shield*


The Nunoboko Shield is a RS power and Yata isn't argument no longer flies as well I feel given who hyped the Mirror and Kishimoto did label it as god's powers which could suggest a RS link anyway.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 26, 2014)

BZ's hype vs Obito's hype. 

Tough one 


*Spoiler*: __ 



the one with the invinciblity hype


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## Cognitios (Jun 26, 2014)

Yata Mirror has invincibility hype from BZ, Kaguya's will, and RS's brother.
Also hasn't broken or shown weakness like a certain Nunoboko shield I could mention.
Clearly Yata Mirror is invincible as Kishi > Your fanfiction


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## Kai (Jun 26, 2014)

We simply don't know the limits of Yata's Mirror, but I'm sure it's at a much higher ceiling than people used to be willing to believe.

But Chojuro with Nunoboku > Itachi with Yata


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 26, 2014)

I'll go with the one wielded by the one with hilariously more power


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 26, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I'll go with the one wielded by the one with hilariously more power




We know that Juubito has more power than Itachi. 
But with Yata & Totsuka, Itachi becomes invincible. 
So obviously Yata is stronger than Obito's featless shitty shield. :ignoramus


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## Legendary Itachi (Jun 26, 2014)

Kaguya's will hype > Friendship. 

Yata is clearly better and more reliable than a shitty shield relying on shitty willpower. :ignoramus


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## Kai (Jun 26, 2014)

Friendship shits on hype in this manga


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## Cognitios (Jun 26, 2014)

> Friendship shits on hype in this manga


Kaguya wants to have a word with you on that one.


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## Vicotex (Jun 26, 2014)

Jubito all the way, to hell with all the itachi fanboys


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2014)

IIRC, Black Zetsu didn't even know what Susano'o was...

The Yata Mirror counters ninjutsu by switching its element to counter the attack in question via the elemental wheel. If the Mirror was actually indestructible, there would be no point in it doing that, because it would tank any attack regardless of elemental standing. 

The Yata Mirror is pointless against ninjutsu that don't have an elemental weakness.


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## Dr. White (Jun 26, 2014)

Rocky said:


> IIRC, Black Zetsu didn't even know what Susano'o was...
> 
> The Yata Mirror counters ninjutsu by switching its element to counter the attack in question via the elemental wheel. If the Mirror was actually indestructible, there would be no point in it doing that, because it would tank any attack regardless of elemental standing.
> 
> The Yata Mirror is pointless against ninjutsu that don't have an elemental weakness.



But Rocky, the same databook that you are using to back the mechanics of Yata states itself that it doesn't matter whether the attack be physical or astral, then goes onto list ninjutsu as a seperate category suggesting a difference.

Also I'm pretty sure it was WZ who was surprised. I'm not completely sure though

Anyway we know Itachi was busy exploring old places of the past to learn about his ancestors and Orochimaru atleast knew of their existence, so I wouldn't be surprised for it to make sense that BZ knew about ancient weapons he claimed he certainly knew about and called them invincible despite obviously knowing about RS, Kaguya and his his bro.


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> But Rocky, the same databook that you are using to back the mechanics of Yata states itself that it doesn't matter whether the attack be physical or astral, then goes onto list ninjutsu as a seperate category suggesting a difference.



That's the hyperbolic part of the entry. "The Yata Mirror bounces back any kind of attack, while the Totsuka Sword mows down any kind of enemy" is hyperbole. No different than Mountain-Hollowing Jiraiya (with Chaoodama Rasengan) or Wind Training Nardo's Rasenshuriken having power that can't be comprehended....and _nobody_ can tank it. 

The Databook actually goes into detail on _how_ Itachi's items function further down. It explains that Totsuka seals what it pierces, and Yata Mirror changes its nature. What I said is true; if Yata Mirror was indestructible, it wouldn't have to change its nature to block attacks.


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## Jagger (Jun 26, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Also I'm pretty sure it was WZ who was surprised. I'm not completely sure though


When Zetsu asks "_What's that?/What's happening?_", the speech bubble points at BZ, not the white one.

Then again, it's most likely a contradiction because Kishi had no idea that BZ would end up being Kaguya's "child" at that point.


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## Vicotex (Jun 26, 2014)

Thats what we al talkin about


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## Fox91 (Jun 26, 2014)

Here we go again...Another thread bashing Yata Mirror.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 26, 2014)

Fox91 said:


> Here we go again...Another thread bashing Yata Mirror.



Nothing wrong with putting down a hyperbole so it doesn't get wanked too hard


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2014)

Fox91 said:


> Here we go again...Another thread bashing Yata Mirror.



The Mirror has nothing to support the idea of it being indestructible other than Zetsu's comment from 300 chapters ago, which is approximately six years.


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## Vicotex (Jun 26, 2014)

Six years of shit


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 26, 2014)

Nothing has changed yin-yang shield that erases everything except senjutsu>>>>>paper bomb blocking otherwise featless shield.

I don't really care who or what says it if it don't got any feats near it's claims it's not legit. It's no different than believing guy hands move as fast as lighting(unproven hype) or preta path being able to absorb any jutsu no matter the power.


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## Arles Celes (Jun 26, 2014)

This is a weird one as Yata has invincibility hype from the most knowledgeable character(BZ) and was not damaged while Nonobuko actually was.

However, Yata's biggest tanking feat is either Kirin- which is way inferior to Kyuusano slash- or some exploding formulas that Sasuke did throw at Itachi which is also quite inferior to what Nonobuko had to face.
Furthermore, Nonobuko was wielded by a QUITE stronger character than Itachi so it only makes sense that as such its power is also greater.


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## Dr. White (Jun 26, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Mirror has nothing to support the idea of it being indestructible other than Zetsu's comment from 300 chapters ago, which is approximately six years.



Like how people still cling to Jiraiya >= to Itachi? Despite thatbeing 8 years ago?


BZ at the end of the day is still BZ, a fucking catalogue of the past and on most ninjutsu in general. One of the most knowledgeable people in the series, yet were just gonna throw it at the way side 

really Rocky 

But if Minato had them weapons


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 26, 2014)

Dr. White, you really do enjoy wanking Itachi don't you?

This is the battledome, feats are what rule here. Yata Mirror is nothing more than a hype machine, it literally has no feats. It was used in conjunction with V3 Susano, a top-tier chakra constructed humanoid tank against Sasuke. 

What the fuck is the mirror? Is it actually a tiny mirror Itachi holds in his pocket while maintaining Susano?

In effect, it could be utterly useless without Susano, the same can be said for Totsuka. Both techniques are enhanced by the Mangekyō Sharingan technique known as Susano, and this thread is about the Yata Mirror- not the Yata Mirror and Susano- which is actually what made Itachi "invincible" by BZ's words, which were canon shit.

There are several instances where black zetsu was outright incorrect in his analysis, along with a number of characters. 

Orochimaru could also be considered one of the most knowledgeable ninja in the verse- but he also said this:
[1]

Kimimaro's bone structure impenetrable? Resist any physical attack? PT.1 Sasuke's Chidori would penetrate his body through to the other side...


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## Dr. White (Jun 26, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Dr. White, you're a huge Itachi fanboy. Please stop.


That's Mr. Dr. White to you, and thank you sir, I am honored by the title 



> This is the battledome, feats are what rule here. Yata Mirror is nothing more than a hype machine, it literally has no feats. It was used in conjunction with V3 Susano, a top-tier chakra constructed humanoid tank.


I don't care. It has ridiculous hype behind it, from the DB, and BZ (which given recent events is very noteworthy). Feats rule, but lack of them doesn't supercede hype and portrayal buddy. 

The lolworthy RS tools used by Gin/Kin are foreshadowed to become relevant in this arc with god tiers, and even they seem to pale in comparison to the hax and power of the sacred treasures. You don't get to be named after important japanese mythology and not be non fodder weapons. 

"According to legend, these treasures were brought to earth by Ninigi-no-Mikoto, legendary ancestor of the Japanese imperial line, when his grandmother, the Sun Goddess Amaterasu, sent him to pacify Japan. Traditionally, they were a symbol of the emperor's divinity as a descendant of Amaterasu, confirming his legitimacy as paramount ruler of Japan"

They are tools used by god man, per tradition, and Databook.




> What the fuck is the mirror? Is it actually a tiny mirror Itachi holds in his pocket while maintaining Susano?


Nope its a shield said to turn back any attack. We may not take it at face value but being hyped like that by someone who has seen the god tiers of the verse cannot go uncredited.



> In effect, it could be utterly useless without Susano, the same can be said for Totsuka. Both techniques are enhanced by Susano, and this thread is about the Yata Mirror- not the Yata Mirror and Susano- which is actually what made Itachi "invincible" by BZ's words, which were canon shit.


They are weapons of Susano themselves, not actual physical things lol.

There are several instances where black zetsu was outright incorrect in his analysis, along with a number of characters. 

Orochimaru could also be considered one of the most knowledgeable ninja in the verse- but he also said this:
[1]



> Kimimaro's bone structure impenetrable? Resist any physical attack? PT.1 Sasuke's Chidori would penetrate his body through to the other side...


He is speaking in general terms, because most physical attacks won't work, and his bones are like tempered steel. Orochimaru never freaking saw God tiers fight bruh, and comparing a Jonin's KKG to God weapons is laughable at best.


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Mirror has nothing to support the idea of it being indestructible other than Zetsu's comment from 300 chapters ago, which is approximately six years.


Or Kishimoto sitting down a while after he wrote that chapter and labelling it as defending against all manner of attacks in his databook and being a power of god.

There must be a reason he continually hypes it this way,other NLF statements like Kakashi's Raikiri cutting through anything and Haku's lightspeed was only stated once and shortly disproven. Yata's hype has been repeated by the author and never had it's hype disproved


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## Sans (Jun 26, 2014)

Not having an elemental affinity doesn't make the Yata Mirror worthless, it just means it can't rely on having elemental superiority when clashing.

My respect for Itachi's Totsuka and Yamata has risen after the Black Zetsu reveal, but I still feel he would lose to Obito here. Even if Itachi did somehow tap into aspects of the Juubi/Rikudou/Kaguya to manifest his weapons, Obito realised those powers to a far greater extent.


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2014)

Kaguya putting stock into the item might suggest that at least to non-Rikudo characters the Mirror may infact be able to tank all attacks. The problem is of course the Mirror can't cover all of the Susanoo.

And given Kishimoto's raging boner for the character, I won't be surprised if Sasuke pulls it out soon and shows it truly lives up to the hype


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## Cognitios (Jun 27, 2014)

I find it ironic the same people who hold true to the Hiruzen hype are the same people hating on the legendary weapons hype.
Hiruzen hype was 500 chapters ago
Legendary hype was 300 chapters ago
If your going to hold to the Hiruzen hype then give it to the legendary weapons too.


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2014)

Kishimoto also wrote the Databook after the chapter I believe so it isn't even 300 chapters. The thing is he took the time to sit down and think about what he wanted the Mirror to be and he thought to label it as a power of god with the ability to stop all astral, physical and chakra based attacks.

That alone makes it different from the usual NLF like Haku lightspeed. Plus the hype doesn't come from some fodder but from the strongest entity in the manga who essentially created chakra.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 27, 2014)

> I don't care. It has ridiculous hype behind it, from the DB, and BZ (which given recent events is very noteworthy). Feats rule, but lack of them doesn't supercede hype and portrayal buddy.


The only hype it has is Black Zetsu's excited awe. His dialogue is not the word of law, it is just a character's dialogue. 



> The lolworthy RS tools used by Gin/Kin are foreshadowed to become relevant in this arc with god tiers, and even they seem to pale in comparison to the hax and power of the sacred treasures. You don't get to be named after important japanese mythology and not be non fodder weapons.


Your argument for it being relevant is the cultural meaning behind the actual title of the artifact? That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in awhile. 



> "According to legend, these treasures were brought to earth by Ninigi-no-Mikoto, legendary ancestor of the Japanese imperial line, when his grandmother, the Sun Goddess Amaterasu, sent him to pacify Japan. Traditionally, they were a symbol of the emperor's divinity as a descendant of Amaterasu, confirming his legitimacy as paramount ruler of Japan"


This is the meaning of the title of a fictional artifact that has absolutely no connection to our world. 



> They are tools used by god man, per tradition, and Databook.


Databook is also garbage, how about we leave it out of battle dome discussions?

Let's look at the feats:
Blocked exploding tags in the incarnation of a *Susano*. 

*Susano*: "The only known methods of attacking the user while Susanoo is active are to draw the wielder out of the technique and then attack, bind and restrict its movements, or to break the defense with overwhelming force." -Naruwiki 

In other words, Susano is the defensive wall that Yata Mirror is attaching to. 



> Nope its a shield said to turn back any attack. We may not take it at face value but being hyped like that by someone who has seen the god tiers of the verse cannot go uncredited.


It can, and it will. Because BZ's words there are nothing but a hyperbole by the author to create excitement about a character- it happens often. Like when Obito suggested Izanagi gave Danzo complete control over his fate- when it fact it only allowed him to avoid death. Or when Orochimaru stated Kimimaro was immune to physical attacks, or when Kabuto suggested there wasn't a person who could defeat Kimimaro. 

Itachi is not invincible, and never was. Yata Mirror is not invincible, it literally has 0 features- because it was used in the incarnation of a rare ocular ninjutsu known as Susano, a top-tier, nearly impenetrable defensive humanoid avatar construct surrounding the user. 



> They are weapons of Susano themselves, not actual physical things lol.


Yata Mirror and the Totsuka blade are ancient artifacts that Itachi implemented into his Susano incarnation. 



> He is speaking in general terms, because most physical attacks won't work, and his bones are like tempered steel. Orochimaru never freaking saw God tiers fight bruh, and comparing a Jonin's KKG to God weapons is laughable at best.


He is not speaking in general terms, he outright suggested no physical attack could harm him. Are you suggesting he wasn't wrong in his analysis?

No one compared anything. I simply said characters spew out bullshit on a consistent basis. Orochimaru's statement was borderline retarded, and he's a fucking genius with more stored knowledge about the verse than most. 

There are other examples, that if you've read the manga you'd understand. Characters, on a consistent basis, make outrageous claims.

BZ's dick was hard on Itachi's technique, because he would have never thought Totsuka, Yata Mirror and Susano would be combined together. His retarded fangirl reaction: "He is virtually invincible." 

No one is invincible. It's impossible to be. The offensive destructive power of this manga greatly out-performs the defensive power on a CONSISTENT basis. There isn't a single defense in current manga that hasn't been defeated by an offensive technique which can come in the form of Genjutsu, Taijutsu, Ninjutsu or Senjutsu.

Yata Mirror does nothing for Genjutsu- Itachi is entirely vulnerable to all types of Genjutsu with the Yata Mirror active. Chakra sapping techniques like Preta Path absorb it casually. Jubito's and Judara's Ninjutsu-destroying spheres casually erase the Yata Mirror upon detonation, because it's being incarnated into a Ninjutsu that is destroyed by the Juubi's chakras. The list goes on.. Yomi Numa sinks the Susano suffocating Itachi, Minato warps the Mirror and Susano away and Itachi is entirely vulnerable, Gaara buries it in the desert and Itachi suffocates, Kisame releases Water dome and Itachi suffocates in his Susano.

How about attacking from behind? Naruto fires  at the back of Itachi with the mirror in front, he is utterly annihilated. 

Invincible? No. Not invincible.

Black Zetsu is wrong, you are wrong.


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## Azula (Jun 27, 2014)

I dont care how long has black zetsu been alive, it was his first time seeing yata mirror, he has never handled it, he has like other people only heard about yata mirror/totsuka and was regurgitating those legends

His word on it is just about as credible as people claiming that kyuubi is a natural disaster


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## Cognitios (Jun 27, 2014)

So Black Zetsu has no idea what he is dealing with but some fans in a debate forum do?
I'm sorry, but if you have seen RS and his brother in full action against the Juubi, if you have witnessed Kaguya's power, if you have seen Madara and Hashirama dish it out, you are not going to be impressed by just a susanoo blocking some explosive tags or a kirin.
It takes something amazing, beyond amazing for it to be called invincible. Black Zetsu, even if it is just a hyperbole is amazed at Itachi's susanoo's defense and offense, putting it on par with every other one of the most powerful offenses and defenses in history, if not above.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Like how people still cling to Jiraiya >= to Itachi? Despite thatbeing 8 years ago?



I don't think Jiraiya ≥ Itachi.



> BZ at the end of the day is still BZ, a fucking catalogue of the past and on most ninjutsu in general. One of the most knowledgeable people in the series, yet were just gonna throw it at the way side



Black Zetsu didn't even recognize Susano'o...



> really Rocky



Indestructible objects don't have to alter their nature to block attacks. They would just tank using their indestructible-ness.



Komnenos said:


> Not having an elemental affinity doesn't make the Yata Mirror worthless, it just means it can't rely on having elemental superiority when clashing.



...And it's durability probably isn't greater than that of Susano'o without it.


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## Fox91 (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Black Zetsu didn't even recognize Susano'o...



That's BS and you know it. WH was the one that didn't recognize Susano'o. BZ stated right away the powers of Totsuka. Do you really think he couldn't recognize Susano'o?



Rocky said:


> Indestructible objects don't have to alter their nature to block attacks. They would just tank using their indestructible-ness.



And why? Just because you say it?



Rocky said:


> ...And it's durability probably isn't greater than that of Susano'o without it.



Again, just because you say it?

These anti Itachi really do make me laugh with all their hyperbole statements, lol.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

Fox91 said:


> That's BS and you know it. WH was the one that didn't recognize Susano'o. BZ stated right away the powers of Totsuka. Do you really think he couldn't recognize Susano'o?



It _appears_ to be Black Zetsu.



> And why? Just because you say it?



Because of logic.

If something is indestructible, it need not play around with the elemental wheel in an attempt to gain an advantage against opposing Ninjutsu. What point is there in gaining an advantage when _nothing_ can break it regardless?


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2014)

Yata's Mirror is Black Zetsu (indirectly Kaguya's) creation, considering Uchiha power stems from her. I think he's the most qualified to talk about it.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Yata's Mirror is Black Zetsu (indirectly Kaguya's) creation, considering Uchiha power stems from her. I think he's the most qualified to talk about it.



Kishimoto is, and he let us know that it wasn't completely invulnerable when he explained its ability to change nature.

Unless one wants to take the stance that he wrote that part for shits and giggles, then the "tank any attack" hype cannot stand true.


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## Vicotex (Jun 27, 2014)

Am sticking with obito


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kishimoto is, and he let us know that it wasn't completely invulnerable when he explained its ability to change nature.
> 
> Unless one wants to take the stance that he wrote that part for shits and giggles, then the "tank any attack" hype cannot stand true.


I don't see how explaining the mechanics means it can't live up to its hype. Physical attacks aren't chakra nature based and yet.



All attacks whether physical or astral, ninjutsu or physical can be blocked.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Physical attacks aren't chakra nature based and yet.





Yes, yes they are. Unless you mean "physical" as in taijutsu, but that probably isn't going to work on Susano'o regardless of the mirror. 



> All attacks whether physical or astral, ninjutsu or physical can be blocked.



I don't know what how the Mirror counters taijutsu or kenjutsu, but we _do_ know that ninjutsu is blocked through the elemental wheel. Things like Bijūdama and Jinton, which don't have an elemental weakness, cannot be blocked.

Furthermore, the very fact that the mirror bothers to go through these nature changes is a major implication that it is _breakable_, as an indestructible object would have no need to seek advantages through the elemental wheel. Thus, the manga hype (Yata Mirror reflects "all" attacks) is not true. If the mirror had the ability to reflect "all" attacks, even ninjutsu that it _doesn't_ have the elemental advantage on, Kishimoto would have no reason to give it the ability to alter its nature at all.


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Yes, yes they are. Unless you mean "physical" as in taijutsu, but that probably isn't going to work on Susano'o regardless of the mirror.


I mean we saw the mirror block Sasuke's sword, there's no chakra nature behind it. 

What about attacks like Hirudora, how would the Mirror react to that?



> I don't know what how the Mirror counters taijutsu or kenjutsu, but we _do_ know that ninjutsu is blocked through the elemental wheel. Things like Bijūdama and Jinton, which don't have an elemental weakness, cannot be blocked.
> 
> Furthermore, the very fact that the mirror bothers to go through these nature changes is a major implication that it is _breakable_, as an indestructible object would have no need to seek advantages through the elemental wheel. Thus, the manga hype (Yata Mirror reflects "all" attacks) is not true. If the mirror had the ability to reflect "all" attacks, even ninjutsu that it _doesn't_ have the elemental advantage on, Kishimoto would have no reason to give it the ability to alter its nature at all.


Or that Kishimoto just figured out a cool mechanic he could use to explain the Mirror's power. It's kinda bland and poor story telling to simply say Itachi this godlike mirror that is unbreakable simply because it is.

Kishimoto said it was block all ninjutsu, Jinton is ninjutsu is it not? And I guess Bijuudama could fall under the same category. Although I'd still say stronger Bijuudama's AOE could blast Susanoo open and kill Itachi regardless of the Mirror.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I mean we saw the mirror block Sasuke's sword, there's no chakra nature behind it.



Yes, but like I said, Stage 3 Susano'o would have done that without the mirror.



> What about attacks like Hirudora, how would the Mirror react to that?



It should be perfectly fine if whatever method it uses to negate taijutsu works on Hirodura, and we've been given no reason to believe it wouldn't (or would).

That's completely irrelevant in combat though, because Susano'o itself can tank Hirodura.



> Or that Kishimoto just figured out a cool mechanic he could use to explain the Mirror's power. It's kinda bland and poor story telling to simply say Itachi this godlike mirror that is unbreakable simply because it is.



It isn't unbreakable if it bothers to change nature. Otherwise...it wouldn't change nature.



> Kishimoto said it was block all ninjutsu, Jinton is ninjutsu is it not?



Don't exclude details.

Kishimoto wrote in the Databook that Yata Mirror "blocks" ninjutsu _by altering its nature._ Altering the nature won't work against something that doesn't have a weakness to a specific nature. 

"The mirror blocks all attacks" is the no limits fallacy, just like the Rasenshuriken being capable of destroying "anything".


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## Sans (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ...And it's durability probably isn't greater than that of Susano'o without it.



I would disagree with this, I  am of the opinion that they are not conventional Susano'o manifestations. 

Itachi's Yata and Totsuka have been specifically named, identified and explained; which cannot be said for any other Susano'o users weaponry. Orochimaru spent his life searching for them, and they were treated as some sort of fable when first revealed in the manga. Unlike any other Susano'o, the Yata and Totsuka have characteristics belonging to them alone.

In Japanese mythology, both items have a divine origin, and the Yata no Kagomi is part of the Imperial Regalia of the Emperor; a living God. This is explains Orochimaru's interest in the two, as it intersects with his research into the Rinnegan and other beyond mortal paths to power.

That does not make the Yata superior to Obito's manifested weapons. While I do believe Itachi's items to be unique and distinct from a conventional Susano'o, their true origin and strength has not been defined in the manga. Even assuming that Itachi somehow laid claim to a sword and shield related to the Rinnegan, Kaguya and that time period, so did Obito. Obito, however, was able to seize that source of power far more definitively than Itachi ever did. 

Still, I am dubious of the notion that there's no difference between the Yata and Totsuka, and what other Susano'o users wield.


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Yes, but like I said, Stage 3 Susano'o would have done that without the mirror.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay then what about something like Evening Elephant?

It would tear right through V4 Susanoo. Would you say the Mirror does nothing since it can't gain an advantage through chakra change?



> Don't exclude details.
> 
> Kishimoto wrote in the Databook that Yata Mirror "blocks" ninjutsu _by altering its nature._ Altering the nature won't work against something that doesn't have a weakness to a specific nature.


He also wrote all ninjutsu are meaningless in the face of Yata's Mirror. Jinton is ninjutsu, no matter how you cut it. If bypassing the mirror was something as simple as Kekkai Genkai you think Kishimoto wouldn't write all ninjutsu have no effect. That's a pretty big flaw for the Mirror to have especially if you're going to tell your readers it's can turn back any attack.



> "The mirror blocks all attacks" is the no limits fallacy, just like the Rasenshuriken being capable of destroying "anything".


Rasenshuriken's hype was disproven very shortly after it was hyped. It failed to destroy Kakuzu. It's hype from fodder that holds no weight. It's no different then Haku lightspeed NLF.

Yata's hype came from a far more credible source (potentially it's creator) and it's hype has not been disproven yet. It's counterpart has also yet to fail in any situation. Believing in the items hype is much different from believing Haku is lightspeed because we already know it's rubbish.

Until Kishimoto decides to prove the readers wrong, we're technically just listening to his words from his manga and his databook. And I personally feel two canon sources is superior to a person's subjective interpretation of the mirror


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> I would disagree with this, I  am of the opinion that they are not conventional Susano'o manifestations.



I didn't ever claim them to be.

I agree with everything in that post, but I believe that the "unconventional"  characteristic of Yata Mirror is the ability to negate many ninjutsu through nature alteration, which is something unique to Itachi.

I don't think that there is any implication that the item is incredibly durable outside of the nature alterations? at least no more than Susano'o normally is.


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## Sans (Jun 27, 2014)

I personally feel the Totsuka and Yata are descended from Kaguya and the Rikudou, for all the reasons I just outlined. I would be very surprised if their raw power also wasn't in excess of what the average Susano'o is capable of.

Their true placing will probably never be shown within the manga though, so I cannot do more than speculate.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Okay then what about something like Evening Elephant?
> 
> It would tear right through V4 Susanoo. Would you say the Mirror does nothing since it can't gain an advantage through chakra change?



I can't answer that, and you know that. Until we know what method Yata no Kagami uses to turn back taijutsu, I can't say what would happen. 



> He also wrote all ninjutsu are meaningless in the face of Yata's Mirror. Jinton is ninjutsu, no matter how you cut it. If bypassing the mirror was something as simple as Kekkai Genkai you think Kishimoto wouldn't write all ninjutsu have no effect. That's a pretty big flaw for the Mirror to have especially if you're going to tell your readers it's can turn back any attack.



Do you know what hyperbole is? 



> Rasenshuriken's hype was disproven very shortly after it was hyped. It failed to destroy Kakuzu. It's hype from fodder that holds no weight. It's no different then Haku lightspeed NLF.



The Rasenshuriken's hype is from the Databook...

Meaning it's from Kishimoto, who is not fodder. And it was published _after_ the Rasenshuriken was debuted against Kakuzu (obviously). 



> Yata's hype came from a far more credible source (potentially it's creator) and it's hype has not been disproven yet. It's counterpart has also yet to fail in any situation. Believing in the items hype is much different from believing Haku is lightspeed because we already know it's rubbish.i



The fact that it hasn't been disproven does not make it less hyperbolic.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> I personally feel the Totsuka and Yata are descended from Kaguya and the Rikudou, for all the reasons I just outlined. I would be very surprised if their raw power also wasn't in excess of what the average Susano'o is capable of.



Like the treasures of the Sage? Those tools normally cannot be used by normal humans. 

On another note, why do items descending from the Sage have to pack more "raw power" than other Susano'o? Why can't those items just pack unique abilities, like the other items descending from the sage?


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## Sans (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Like the treasures of the Sage? Those tools normally cannot be used by normal humans.
> 
> On another note, why do items descending from the Sage have to pack more "raw power" than other Susano'o? Why can't those items just pack unique abilities, like the other items descending from the sage?



I suspect that is why Itachi can only utilise the Totsuka and Yata through his Susano'o, unlike every other person with strength derived from that past.

Kaguya, the Juubi and the Rikudou are the source of all power in the Narutoverse, and Itachi has accessed the fount to a greater degree than what a standard Susano'o represents. The differences between the two being relatively minor simply seems the lesser likelihood.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Don't exclude details.
> 
> Kishimoto wrote in the Databook that Yata Mirror "blocks" ninjutsu _by altering its nature._ Altering the nature won't work against something that doesn't have a weakness to a specific nature.
> 
> "The mirror blocks all attacks" is the no limits fallacy, just like the Rasenshuriken being capable of destroying "anything".


Altering nature doesn't mean that Yata uses the opposite element. It simply means that Yata grants properties required to block specific attack. You can block ninjutsu with ninjutsu of the same nature. Like Hiruzen did.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Altering nature doesn't mean that Yata uses the opposite element. It simply means that Yata grants properties required to block specific attack. You can block ninjutsu with ninjutsu of the same nature. Like Hiruzen did.



...sure?

I don't know why it would do that, though. I mean, if I was the mirror, I wouldn't switch to fire to block a fire attack, I'd switch to water.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ...sure?
> 
> I don't know why it would do that, though. I mean, if I was the mirror, I wouldn't switch to fire to block a fire attack, I'd switch to water.





Rocky said:


> mirror



I remember another tech with "mirror" in its name. Used by young Mizukage. Do you remember what it does?


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I can't answer that, and you know that. Until we know what method Yata no Kagami uses to turn back taijutsu, I can't say what would happen.


But weren't you making the argument that the Yata's Mirror requires the mechanic of nature cycle advantage to neutralize attacks? Doesn't this mean there's also another power at work beside the nature advantage?



> Do you know what hyperbole is?


I do, I just question why he'd state such a hyperbole if there was such a massive weakness to non-chakra nature based attacks and Kekkai Genkai.



> The Rasenshuriken's hype is from the Databook...
> 
> Meaning it's from Kishimoto, who is not fodder. And it was published _after_ the Rasenshuriken was debuted against Kakuzu (obviously).


It was disproven, we can discount it like we discount lightspeed Haku. 

Yata was also hyped twice. Rasenshruiken never received such hype in the manga. Only that it's power would be incredible if completed iirc.


> The fact that it hasn't been disproven does not make it less hyperbolic.


I'd agree if he hadn't labelled it as god's power and essentially had the creator of the said item hype it up (I'd say the Yata's Mirror somehow stems from Kaguya or the RS family). It's a hyperbolic claim yes but it does hold more weight seeing as the author has yet to give us reason to doubt it. It could be linked to the RS family for all we know.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2014)

Totsuka is an item Orochimaru has searched for all his life. No other sacred item has such hype. Most of them are just shitty ass items used by fodder which don't have the feats of doing anything significant.

I see absoulutey no reason to disregard Yata & Totsuka hype or compare it to other items in similar categories. They were clearly placed on a different pedestal.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

You guys need to understand that hyperbole doesn't become more "accepted" just because the person doing the exaggeration is more credible, though I'm not sure how credible Black Zetsu from 6 years ago is on the matter.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You guys need to understand that hyperbole doesn't become more "accepted" just because the person doing the exaggeration is more credible, though I'm not sure how credible Black Zetsu from 6 years ago is on the matter.



Orochimaru searching it for all his life is not a hyperbole. It is a historical fact.

edit : 

And BZ from 6 years ago was still like an encyclopedia who had vast knowledge and who liked recording fights between strong shinobi.

He was basically the author in a commentator role in the manga, explaining shit.


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2014)

We don't really know if Kishimoto planned this all out with Zetsu being the final villain and Kaguya's will but anything we say is pure speculation. It seems unbelievable but as far as canon goes it was indeed Kaguya's will hyping the Mirror and that will has shown it possesses a shit tonne of knowledge. Certainly Black Zetsu is likely the most knowledgeable character in the entire manga and his word holds a shit tonne more weight.

Let's use an example. If Truth from Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood says Ed's arm is impervious to all attacks. We see him tank some attacks with the arm but never anything major and the manga ends before it's truly tested. Would you doubt his words knowing who Truth is? I personally wouldn't.

It's not just Zetsu but Kishimoto hyping the item multiple times, having it's counterpart live up to its hype and the lack of evidence to suggest it can't live up to the hype.

The main counterargument is that "It doesn't make sense to me because Itachi would be too strong!11!1!", if someone like Madara or Minato had the mirror no one in this section would doubt the hype.


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## Kaiser (Jun 27, 2014)

If yata mirror was so great, why Kabuto didn't take it for himself when he revived Itachi? Sword of nunoboku anyday


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## KnightGhost (Jun 27, 2014)

This guys got owned by Kishi once a gain itachi shield> your life


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2014)

Blake said:


> If yata mirror was so great, why Kabuto didn't take it for himself when he revived Itachi? Sword of nunoboku anyday


Same reason he didn't take Nagato's Rinnegan.

Or the Rikudo Treasures.

Try harder, please.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 27, 2014)

I agree with rocky,  yata probably offers decent durability outside of its nature wheel tho.


I would grant it atleast stage 4 susano durability on its own,  so even if you had no nature in your ninjutsu it will still be like trying to bust threw 2 stage 4 Susan o's in a row.


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## Rocky (Jun 27, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> We don't really know if Kishimoto planned this all out with Zetsu being the final villain and Kaguya's will but anything we say is pure speculation. It seems unbelievable but as far as canon goes it was indeed Kaguya's will hyping the Mirror and that will has shown it possesses a shit tonne of knowledge



As far as cannon goes, Prime Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama and Itachi can at best draw with Jiraiya. 



> The main counterargument is that "It doesn't make sense to me because Itachi would be too strong!11!1!", if someone like Madara or Minato had the mirror no one in this section would doubt the hype.



It doesn't matter who has the mirror. Hyperbole is hyperbole. "X technique can block anything" is hyperbole.


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2014)

Who's wielding the Yata Mirror? I don't doubt that if someone such as Kaguya were wielding it with her speculated/hypothetical charkra reserves and reflexes she may very well be nigh invincible; assuming we're taking BZ's statement at face-value which would be silly anyway for a variety of reasons. As of this point however Nunoboko Shield has the better feats. Although I do have a feeling the Yata Mirror may come into play again at some point wielded by a vastly stronger character.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> I agree with rocky,  yata probably offers decent durability outside of its nature wheel tho.
> 
> 
> I would grant it atleast stage 4 susano durability on its own,  so even if you had no nature in your ninjutsu it will still be like trying to bust threw 2 stage 4 Susan o's in a row.



Using common sense, the shield is supposed to be tougher than whoever is wielding it. 
So I'd say the shield is probably more durable than Susano'o itself, without taking the elemental wheel aspect and its hype into account.


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## Dr. White (Jun 27, 2014)

The Format said:


> Who's wielding the Yata Mirror? I don't doubt that if someone such as Kaguya were wielding it with her speculated/hypothetical charkra reserves and reflexes she may very well be nigh invincible; assuming we're taking BZ's statement at face-value which would be silly anyway for a variety of reasons. As of this point however Nunoboko Shield has the better feats. Although I do have a feeling the Yata Mirror may come into play again at some point wielded by a vastly stronger character.



Why would the weapon change strength with the wielder? The whole point behind the weapons is for them, themselves to be powerful. She could use it for way longer, but it still be of the same power.....

That's like me saying Kusanagi grew in power because Itachi was wielding it...


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2014)

Zetsu was lying because he knew that Sasuke would be with them, so he said that just to protect him. 
and since the statement is old that means it must be wrong. 

and both itachi and Obito are known to be liars as well, so Sasuke just killed itachi by his own power... 
and itachi did not plan anything (remember he is a liar and all of his statements shouldn't be taken seriously).


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## Dr. White (Jun 27, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Zetsu was lying because he knew that Sasuke would be with them, so he said that just to protect him.
> and since the statement is old that means it must be wrong.
> 
> and both itachi and Obito are known to be liars as well, so Sasuke just killed itachi by his own power...
> and itachi did not plan anything (remember he is a liar and all of his statement shouldn't be taken seriously).



                      .


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2014)

^Did I meantion BZ is a spy as well?:ignoramus


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Why would the weapon change strength with the wielder? The whole point behind the weapons is for them, themselves to be powerful. She could use it for way longer, but it still be of the same power.....
> 
> That's like me saying Kusanagi grew in power because Itachi was wielding it...


I never said the strength of the weapon [Yata Mirror] changed with the wielder. Yata Mirror does what Yata Mirror does (changes its properties in order to counter-balance the opposing attack) but to be able to do so the user must be able to put in enough chakra necessary to match the attack it's going against. The item's potential is still contingent to a degree on the user. So I don't see Yata Mirror--with Itachi as the wielder--deflecting, for instance, any of the recent Rasengan shit Naruto has shown us because obviously those levels of attacks are out the of league of what Itachi can put into the mirror needed to counter-balance them. 



Hussain said:


> and both itachi and Obito are known to be liars as well, so Sasuke just killed itachi by his own power...
> and itachi did not plan anything (remember he is a liar and all of his statement shouldn't be taken seriously).


This is actually kind of funny because Obito (impersonating Mads) was a worse "liar" than Itachi ever was but that never seems to be used as a reason to invalidate what he said to Sasuke or question the accuracy of it. Some might counter that with the revelation from Itachi himself that the fight was a sham, but that of course is different than asserting that Itachi planned the whole thing out inch-by-inch. Obito even outright lies in the conversion at certain points and appears to be laying it on thick to really reach Sasuke's emotions.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2014)

It's not only about Obito though. Itachi stated that Kabuto is a bigger liar than him as well, yet his fans take Kabuto's statements about itachi any day without questioning his credibility either. 

and I agree with the rest. ^_^


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## Dr. White (Jun 27, 2014)

The Format said:


> > I never said the strength of the weapon [Yata Mirror] changed with the wielder. Yata Mirror does what Yata Mirror does (changes its properties in order to counter-balance the opposing attack) but to be able to do so the user must be able to put in enough chakra necessary to match the attack it's going against.
> 
> 
> It is stated to also turn back other attacks including those by physical, or astral means. Itachi had very low chakra when he blocked Kirin with Susano. To suggest Itachi put that much chakra effort up against then used Susano for like 5 more minutes, and used a Fuinjutsu/Amaterasu to seal into Sasuke, then by all means, but I don't agree.
> ...


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## StickaStick (Jun 27, 2014)

@Dr. White.

I'm pretty much fine with all of that. Obviously that aspect of Yata Mirror is a bit ambiguous and that's just the view I hold as I feel it's the most reasonable. The only other thing I would say it that Itachi's chakra reserves are probably a bit understated. I know what the DB states his general stamina level to be at but we do have to consider that Itachi did outlast Sasuke in that department despite using more taxing techniques taken altogether and was even able to sustain Susanoo for a short period while Sasuke was on empty. If this could be believed then I could also buy that he also had enough left to take a Kirin and then some. These things don't have to make perfect sense after all as they rarely do.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Your logic is severly flawed.
> 
> 1. You don't know how to read into literary context. There are certain situations given certain literary variables within the story which lead us to believe certain things. We can easily go back now and tell when Itachi is lying because we have panels and evidence to use. Same with Obito and a multitude of other characters. You follow where the evidence leads you.
> 
> ...



- and those situations are?  
- I don't even know where was even implied that Kisame was watching itachi, as the former only knew
about Obito AFTER itachi's death.  

Kabuto's was overhyping itachi's power and intelligent, which itachi himself admitted to not be true
and he stated that he IS overrated!! The first and only character in the serious that he admits to be overrated, what do you want more than that? 

- Indeed, Jman is a perfect shinobi. And you must differentiate between being a perfect shinobi and being the strongest. 

- The context was and still very clear and obvious, and the only ones disagree with it are usually itachi's fans themselves, and that's because of their personal bias to their favourite character. 

itachi had no reason to lie, actually even Kisame knew Jiraiya's power, so there was not anything to lie about. Just like how itachi tried to kill Kurnai earlier, and he ordered Kisame to take Kakashi had it not for Guy saving him. 

Itachi did not even show any mercy for his own brother, why would he care about Naruto or Jiraiya getting hurt? He even told Sasuke to kill Naruto (his best friend).


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## 2Broken (Jun 27, 2014)

Just throwing this out there, but is it not possible that endowed with all nature transformations means that the mirror is literally made out of the five elements? We know that the Shield of Nunboko is made of at least four and if it is four and not five than that does leave room form a more powerful material.

If this is the case the mirror would have the abilities of not just all natures, but all the combinations of the natures. It will simply be a more advanced version of the Shield of Nunboko and we already know that negates all ninjutsu that isn't sage powered and is quite effective against physical attacks.

The statement about it changing its properties when hit by an attack could simply be it using the best suited nature abilities (including  nature combinations) to negate an attack as some of its properties are weak against what is attacking it. For example if a Katon is launched at it the shield may shut down any wind properties it has.

Just a theory, but even if it were true I would still think the shield can be broken by the people who are practically gods in the verse.


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## Kaiser (Jun 27, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Same reason he didn't take Nagato's Rinnegan.
> 
> Or the Rikudo Treasures.
> 
> Try harder, please.


Edo Rinnengan eyes are fake ones. Try again


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## Dr. White (Jun 27, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - and those situations are?


-The fact that Itachi didn't want to harm any Villages and actually wanted to protect Konoha. The fact hurting a Sannin would severly deplete their militart resource. the fact that Kisame thought Itachi was acting really weird, etc.



> - I don't even know where was even implied that Kisame was watching itachi, as the former only knew
> about Obito AFTER itachi's death.


[3]
-Tobi handpicked Kisame (his most loyal man) to be partnered with Itachi. Don't you think it is funny that their conversation is about betraying comrades? Kisame himself says hopefully we won't be eachothers final opponent, implying should Itachi do something suspicious they would fight.



> Kabuto's was overhyping itachi's power and intelligent, which itachi himself admitted to not be true
> and he stated that he IS overrated!! The first and only character in the serious that he admits to be overrated, what do you want more than that?


Kabuto said Itachi had the power of insight far beyond the sharingan which he said in response to him countering Kabuto himself. Kabuto did overhype him, but the scene isn't to take the hype at face value it is saying even spliced up Sage Kabuto held him in very high regard.



> - Indeed, Jman is a perfect shinobi. And you must differentiate between being a perfect shinobi and being the strongest.


J-man is Minato's "perfect shinobi" . And you must learn how to tell manga context.



> - The context was and still very clear and obvious, and the only ones disagree with it are usually itachi's fans themselves, and that's because of their personal bias to their favourite character.


No many other people believe the evidence...Itachi's hype, portrayal, and feats are > Jiraiya's. The only people who believe Jiraiya is on his level are people who don't like Itachi. Which on this forum there is a plethora.



> itachi had no reason to lie, actually even Kisame knew Jiraiya's power, so there was not anything to lie about. Just like how itachi tried to kill Kurnai earlier, and he ordered Kisame to take Kakashi had it not for Guy saving him.


-He knew he was a Sanin that is it. He had no reason to believe himself and Itachi weren't enough and he even asks Itachi why he needed to retreat. Clear fucking literary context clues which are proven by later events in the manga.

Itachi did need to lie, telling the most loyal akatsuki member that you are a double spy isn't really the best plan. Especially when you'll have the whole organization to deal with.



> Itachi did not even show any mercy for his own brother, why would he care about Naruto or Jiraiya getting hurt? He even told Sasuke to kill Naruto (his best friend).


-Yes he did, he could have killed him but he didn't. In fact he showed explicit mercy for him in sparing him fron dying with the rest of the clan and making sure Danzo and Tobi didn't interefre, even keeping the latter from touching Konoha until his death,.

Naruto was the 9 tail fox, unless he actually wanted Akatsuki to succeed of course he wouldn't want him to die (releasing the KYuubi) or be captured. It's called a facade, and you and many posters seem to be clueless when it comes to this. Like do you know what acting is? Do you know what spies do?It be like telling the spy that lead us to Bin Laden (assuming there is one) he is evil for telling Bin Laden in private during his spying that he was cool, and doing favors for him. It's fucking stupid.


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## Dr. White (Jun 27, 2014)

Blake said:


> Edo Rinnengan eyes are fake ones. Try again



Itachi's eyes were in Sasuke's head...So they were fake as well. The only thing the Rinnengan eyes couldn't do is summon Gedo. Naruto himself said the 6 path powers were stronger than before.

Try again.


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## Blu-ray (Jun 27, 2014)

It must've pained you people when Black Zetsu was revealed as the all knowing huh?


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> As far as cannon goes, Prime Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama and Itachi can at best draw with Jiraiya.


Base Jiraiya being superior to Itachi and Kisame with backup was proven wrong the moment Pein fodderized him. There is also the implication that Itachi could lie here. Not a great example.

Prime Hiruzen was retconned after Kishimoto had Kabuto say Hashirama had the most hype in the manga bar the Rikudo Sennin. There was no reason to doubt the hype until Kishimoto started to retcon it. Especially given the ET performance of Hashirama in Part I.



> It doesn't matter who has the mirror. Hyperbole is hyperbole. "X technique can block anything" is hyperbole.


So if Madara pulled out the Mirror you would still doubt the hype? No one doubted Omouyton's hype in the least even before it showed feats.


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## Jagger (Jun 27, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> It must've pained you people when Black Zetsu was revealed as the all knowing huh?


Yet, he didn't know what Susano'O was. It's obvious that back then Kishi wasn't planning to make BZ Kaguya's child and the mastermind behind the entire plan.


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Yet, he didn't know what Susano'O was. It's obvious that back then Kishi wasn't planning to make BZ Kaguya's child and the mastermind behind the entire plan.


Wasn't that White Zetsu? 

Even if he didn't intend for it to happen that way, most things in this manga were probably not planned out. It doesn't serve as an excuse really.


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## Sans (Jun 27, 2014)

Kaguya's Will managed to manipulate Madara into fulfilling his plans, so utterly that Madara believed him to have created the being. Him displaying ignorance in front of White Zetsu, Madara's actual creation, is unsurprising.

Another possibility is that Black Zetsu legitimately had not seen Susano'o. Madara was the first person to awaken the Mangekyou, and the second to manifest Susano'o after Indra. Black Zetsu only became attached to Madara after his defeat at the Valley of the End, so it is unlikely Madara ever used the jutsu again. 

Either point reaffirms that the Totsuka and Yata are disparate items, distinct from Susano'o with their own illustrious past. In some ways, even older than Susano'o itself.


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## Rocky (Jun 28, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Base Jiraiya being superior to Itachi and Kisame with backup was proven wrong the moment Pein fodderized him. There is also the implication that Itachi could lie here. Not a great example.



Pain defeating Jiraiya does not "prove" that wrong. 

That's only your opinion because you don't think Pain could "fodderize" P1 Itachi & Kisame with backup.



> Prime Hiruzen was retconned after Kishimoto had Kabuto say Hashirama had the most hype in the manga bar the Rikudo Sennin. There was no reason to doubt the hype until Kishimoto started to retcon it. Especially given the ET performance of Hashirama in Part I.



I know it was a retcon, but it was technically never proven to be one. What Kabuto said doesn't _prove _anything.



> So if Madara pulled out the Mirror you would still doubt the hype? No one doubted Omouyton's hype in the least even before it showed feats.



If the "hype" was hyperbole, then yes I would. 

I'm not ever going to take hyperbolic statements at face value no matter who says them.


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## Ersa (Jun 28, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Pain defeating Jiraiya does not "prove" that wrong.
> 
> That's only your opinion because you don't think Pain could "fodderize" P1 Itachi & Kisame with backup.


Part I Itachi was healthier and less damaged after using 3 MS techniques then Part II Itachi so he was likely stronger. I'd actually bank on Itachi & Kisame with backup tanking down Pein yeah especially in a location where Pein wouldn't use CT.

And Itachi is a shit tonne smarter then Jiraiya and the Sages as the manga already showed. Certainly they wouldn't get ripped apart like Jiraiya did. His later performance definitely disproves the Base Jiraiya > Kisame + Itachi with backup in my mind.


> I know it was a retcon, but it was technically never proven to be one. What Kabuto said doesn't _prove _anything.


Kishimoto giving the hype of God of Shinobi over to Hashirama is disproving it, man. Hype can be disproven by feats or it can be retconned. 



> If the "hype" was hyperbole, then yes I would.
> 
> I'm not ever going to take hyperbolic statements at face value no matter who says them.


Perfect Susanoo survives Bijuudama and protected Kurama for a bit from Megazord Buddha attacks. If Kaguya suggested Madara also had a legendary mirror potentially linked to the Narutoverse gods (god's powers) on top of that you'd doubt it?

Not sure I would. There aren't many attacks stronger then the Buddha's attacks.


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## Jagger (Jun 28, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Wasn't that White Zetsu?
> 
> Even if he didn't intend for it to happen that way, most things in this manga were probably not planned out. It doesn't serve as an excuse really.


The speech bubble pointed out at Black Zetsu, though.

I'm not saying BZ is dumb or anything similar. But, as Kom said, it is legitemely possible that BZ never saw Susano'O until Itachi used. I'm just saying that some old statements shouldn't be that reliable in the first place.


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## StickaStick (Jun 28, 2014)

Even if you question who said what, when BZ later _speculates _that apparently Susanoo carries some risks with it that should be a dead giveaway that BZ wasn't in the loop back then as he is now.


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## Ersa (Jun 28, 2014)

Jagger said:


> The speech bubble pointed out at Black Zetsu, though.
> 
> I'm not saying BZ is dumb or anything similar. But, as Kom said, it is legitemely possible that BZ never saw Susano'O until Itachi used. I'm just saying that some old statements shouldn't be that reliable in the first place.


Yata's Mirror is separate from the Susanoo anyways in all likeiness, given Orochimaru wanted to find it and as Kom also pointed out it is likely older then Susanoo itself which further hints at RS connections.


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## Rocky (Jun 28, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> His later performance definitely disproves the Base Jiraiya > Kisame + Itachi with backup in my mind.



It does in my mind as well.

However, that's my entire point. Itachi's performance _a few hundreds chapters later_ essentially makes us believe that Kishimoto has changed his mind about where the two stand in power; make us believe something that goes against what is technically canon.

I'm only saying that the author can change his mind, and I doubt he had Zetsu's back story planned out that far in advance.



> Kishimoto giving the hype of God of Shinobi over to Hashirama is disproving it, man. Hype can be disproven by feats or it can be retconned.



Hiruzen was actually known as "a" god of shinobi, meaning there can technically be multiple.

I also disagree that hype can be disproven by feats. If something is stated regarding the power level of two characters (by a credible source), then we're supposed to believe it to be true no matter their current feats. This is because the author can pull new feats out of his ass, which he does all the time, to validate the hype. This is why I think Minato would defeat A in battle, when Minato can't really hurt A (without doing something suicidal) by feats. 

Now, if it's been a while, and there are factors that may make us believe the author may have changed his mind, I'll usually here out arguments that may go against what is technically "canon." I think J-man ≥ Itachi & Kisame or Hiruzen > Hashirama fall into this category. 



> Perfect Susanoo survives Bijuudama and protected Kurama for a bit from Megazord Buddha attacks. If Kaguya suggested Madara also had a legendary mirror potentially linked to the Narutoverse gods (god's powers) on top of that you'd doubt it?
> 
> Not sure I would. There aren't many attacks stronger then the Buddha's attacks.



Maybe you're not understanding what I'm saying. I am not going to believe hyperbole is 100% accurate..ever. If Madara had this defense that is said to block any and every attack that has existed and will ever exist, then I'm calling it an exaggeration. 

The fact that Yata no Kagami was introduced hundreds of chapters ago as a weapon of a high tier, who had the stamina to actually use the thing while basically dead, only makes me more adamant on the topic. Not even hosts of the Jūbi have defenses on _that_ level. 

I don't think Totsuka "mows down any enemy," so why would I think Yata blocks "any" attack in any form? I think Itachi has a standard Mangekyō Susano'o with two items each holding a special ability. The sword has a powerful fūinjutsu that is used on whatever it pierces (on top of the cutting strength of Susano'o), while the shield has the ability to gain the elemental advantage on most ninjutsu in existence (on top of the natural bulk to Susano'o). That fits well within Itachi's portrayed 'power level', and the abilities are no more or no less hax than the other treasures of Rikudō.


----------



## Ersa (Jun 29, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It does in my mind as well.
> 
> However, that's my entire point. Itachi's performance _a few hundreds chapters later_ essentially makes us believe that Kishimoto has changed his mind about where the two stand in power; make us believe something that goes against what is technically canon.
> 
> I'm only saying that the author can change his mind, and I doubt he had Zetsu's back story planned out that far in advance.


I don't really know about that, even at that point the Jiraiya being superior to Itachi and Kisame was very dubious because we already knew Orochimaru considered Itachi quite a bit superior and Jiraiya had shown nothing to suggest he was even above Orochimaru at this point.

Even if we buy the hype, the point remains that it was disproven eventually. The same cannot be said of the Mirror, I realize this doesn't mean that the hype is instantly true but believing in the hype doesn't go against what the manga suggests.



> I also disagree that hype can be disproven by feats. If something is stated regarding the power level of two characters (by a credible source), then we're supposed to believe it to be true no matter their current feats. This is because the author can pull new feats out of his ass, which he does all the time, to validate the hype. This is why I think Minato would defeat A in battle, when Minato can't really hurt A (without doing something suicidal) by feats.


Fair point here actually, feats can't always disprove old hype.

A better way of saying it is a combination of new hype and feats can disprove previous hype I think. Hashirama/Hiruzen is a good example here. 


> Now, if it's been a while, and there are factors that may make us believe the author may have changed his mind, I'll usually here out arguments that may go against what is technically "canon." I think J-man ≥ Itachi & Kisame or Hiruzen > Hashirama fall into this category.


What makes you think he changed his mind about Yata's Mirror though? I cannot say whether or not Kishimoto remembers BZ hyped the Mirror but making BZ Kaguya is only hyping the item more so rather then going against it.

You can say he forgot he hyped the Mirror with BZ but really we don't know and the man has remembered stuff from early Part I so that's a questionable claim.



> Maybe you're not understanding what I'm saying. I am not going to believe hyperbole is 100% accurate..ever. If Madara had this defense that is said to block any and every attack that has existed and will ever exist, then I'm calling it an exaggeration.


Strictly in terms of the manga, to be this perfect defense it only needs to defend against the strongest attacks in the manga world. At the time I think Yata easily lived up to the hype, at the present time it's a matter of whether you think Kishimoto has changed his mind. For me there's no reason to believe he did, quite the opposite actually.



> The fact that Yata no Kagami was introduced hundreds of chapters ago as a weapon of a high tier, who had the stamina to actually use the thing while basically dead, only makes me more adamant on the topic. Not even hosts of the Jūbi have defenses on _that_ level.


The Mirror boasts many weaknesses the Juubi Jins don't have, it can't protect it's user perfectly since it can't cover it's user perfectly and it requires something to carry it. And the Jubi Jins do have a perfect defense bar senjutsu so as a whole their power far surpasses the Mirror.



> I don't think Totsuka "mows down any enemy," so why would I think Yata blocks "any" attack in any form? I think Itachi has a standard Mangekyō Susano'o with two items each holding a special ability. The sword has a powerful fūinjutsu that is used on whatever it pierces (on top of the cutting strength of Susano'o), while the shield has the ability to gain the elemental advantage on most ninjutsu in existence (on top of the natural bulk to Susano'o). That fits well within Itachi's portrayed 'power level', and the abilities are no more or no less hax than the other treasures of Rikudō.


And that's your opinion which is perfectly fine.

But there's no evidence to back up your claim on the items not being able to do this other your interpretation that Itachi isn't strong enough to have these items. Based on what we have from the manga and Databook and not our own subjective interpretation of what Kishimoto wants, buying the hype is not wrong really.


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## Rocky (Jun 29, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I don't really know about that, even at that point the Jiraiya being superior to Itachi and Kisame was very dubious because we already knew Orochimaru considered Itachi quite a bit superior and Jiraiya had shown nothing to suggest he was even above Orochimaru at this point.



Jiraiya hadn't fought seriously yet, so how was it dubious?



> What makes you think he changed his mind about Yata's Mirror though? I cannot say whether or not Kishimoto remembers BZ hyped the Mirror but making BZ Kaguya is only hyping the item more so rather then going against it.



My point on black zetsu was an afterthought. I don't care if Kishimoto knew that BZ was Kaguya's child when it made a hyperbolic statement.

It's still hyperbole.



> Strictly in terms of the manga, to be this perfect defense it only needs to defend against the strongest attacks in the manga world.



That's not what was said. 

"All attacks" is all attacks. You want to take the hyperbole at face value? Then Yata Mirror reflects techniques on the level of SSJ3 Goku's Super Kamehameha Wave just as casually as Kunai.

If you think the hype means all attacks _that Zetsu knew about_ (even though that isn't what was said), then we don't know what the mirror can tank considering:

1.) Zetsu didn't even recognize Susano'o, and...

2.) the majority of Susano'o busting techniques that we see were created after the hype was said.



> The Mirror boasts many weaknesses the Juubi Jins don't have, it can't protect it's user perfectly since it can't cover it's user perfectly and it requires something to carry it. And the Jubi Jins do have a perfect defense bar senjutsu so as a whole their power far surpasses the Mirror.



I personally don't think the ability to shield from all directions is > the ability to reflect galaxy busters. 



> But there's no evidence to back up your claim on the items not being able to do this other your interpretation that Itachi isn't strong enough to have these items. Based on what we have from the manga and Databook and not our own subjective interpretation of what Kishimoto wants, buying the hype is not wrong really.



Actually, what I think it can do is based on the Databook explanation.

What you think it can do is based on hyperbole. Seriously, the moment Zetsu finished "explaining" Yata Mirror to his other half, he called Itachi invincible. In the same breath.

Guess I should go put Itachi in my God Tier...


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## ueharakk (Jun 29, 2014)

A god's power was attributed to susanoo, NOT to Yaata and Totsuka as susanoo was called by the databook to be 'a guardian diety'.  

The databook also claimed on that very same page that the MS is 'heavenly eyes that can see all things in the universe'.  Unless you want to take every statement in the databook or manga as literally true, then no, yaata doesn't get it's limitless hype simply because it gets stated in the databook.

Onmyouton's best feat: no selling Quad juubidama
Yaata's best feat: no selling a bunch of paper bombs

Onmyouton eats right through yaata.


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## Ersa (Jun 29, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya hadn't fought seriously yet, so how was it dubious?
> 
> My point on black zetsu was an afterthought. I don't care if Kishimoto knew that BZ was Kaguya's child when it made a hyperbolic statement.
> 
> It's still hyperbole.


Because the Sannin were meant to be equals? Jiraiya being stronger then someone stronger then Orochimaru and his S-class partner would indicate an enormous gap in power for the Sannin.

It's a hyperbolic statement that was stated was a reliable source and a statement the author has yet to see fit to disprove. That doesn't suggest it has to be true but that it's is much, much more likely to be true then something like Haku lightspeed.



> That's not what was said.
> 
> "All attacks" is all attacks. You want to take the hyperbole at face value? Then Yata Mirror reflects techniques on the level of SSJ3 Goku's Super Kamehameha Wave just as casually as Kunai.
> 
> ...


Attacks in the Narutoverse don't go up to the galaxy level. All attacks is more likely strictly talking about attacks in the Narutoverse. I somewhat doubt Kishimoto was thinking of DBZ and Marvel when using the term "all attacks".

Yata's Mirror is not part of Susanoo hence why Orochimaru heard the legend of it and searched for it. It's likely older then Susanoo itself.



> Actually, what I think it can do is based on the Databook explanation.
> 
> What you think it can do is based on hyperbole. Seriously, the moment Zetsu finished "explaining" Yata Mirror to his other half, he called Itachi invincible. In the same breath.
> 
> Guess I should go put Itachi in my God Tier...


Or the lack of evidence to suggest otherwise 

But the Itachi being invincible hype was proven wrong after he admitted he needed help later as an Edo Tensei. The Mirror's hype is untouched 

Itachi died though, that kinda disproves the hype. And he needed help later for other fights. The item could be invincible but Itachi and Susanoo certainly are not. Yata Mirror deflecting all attacks really doesn't change who Itachi can or can not defeat; everyone who could've beaten him previously can still beat him.


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## Rocky (Jun 29, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Because the Sannin were meant to be equals? Jiraiya being stronger then someone stronger then Orochimaru and his S-class partner would indicate an enormous gap in power for the Sannin.



The Sannin are on the same level, not complete and utter equals in strength. Not that it matters, because Itachi can defeat Orochimaru and still tie with Jiraiya.

That was the statement, you know, that Itachi would tie with Jiraiya.



> It's a hyperbolic statement that was stated was a reliable source and a statement the author has yet to see fit to disprove. That doesn't suggest it has to be true but that it's is much, much more likely to be true then something like Haku lightspeed.



Hyperbole can't be true. That's what makes it hyperbole. 



> Attacks in the Narutoverse don't go up to the galaxy level. All attacks is more likely strictly talking about attacks in the Narutoverse. I somewhat doubt Kishimoto was thinking of DBZ and Marvel when using the term "all attacks".





I don't give a shit what Kishimoto was thinking. We aren't speculating. "As far as canon goes," all attacks means ALL attacks. What happened to taking the statement at face value?

If you think Zetsu can only speak for the attacks he knows of, then the statement he said is factually incorrect. 

So pick.



> Yata's Mirror is not part of Susanoo hence why Orochimaru heard the legend of it and searched for it. It's likely older then Susanoo itself.



...I know?



> Yata Mirror deflecting all attacks really doesn't change who Itachi can or can not defeat; everyone who could've beaten him previously can still beat him.



I don't care. I'm not going to believe that the mirror can survive anything just because I know that people have ways around Itachi's use of it.


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## Ersa (Jun 29, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Sannin are on the same level, not complete and utter equals in strength. Not that it matters, because Itachi can defeat Orochimaru and still tie with Jiraiya.
> 
> That was the statement, you know, that Itachi would tie with Jiraiya.


The statement was this.



> *Itachi*: Yeah... If we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At the very least, we'd hurt each other badly...And even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome.


Basically the best Itachi & Kisame plus backup can do is force a double KO with Jiraiya. Orochimaru is weaker then Itachi, how does that constitute same level at all?

Jiraiya is far superior to Orochimaru given this statement.





> I don't give a shit what Kishimoto was thinking. We aren't speculating. "As far as canon goes," all attacks means ALL attacks. What happened to taking the statement at face value?
> 
> If you think Zetsu can only speak for the attacks he knows of, then the statement he said is factually incorrect.
> 
> So pick.


It has to be ninjutsu or physical from a physical or astral body (which does cover all attacks in the Narutoverse). When a statement like this is made it's obviously within the verse it's set in. I'm taking it at face value yes but I have to consider that Kishimoto is writing about his verse and not thinking about galaxy busters from DBZ when writing the words all attacks.



> I don't care. I'm not going to believe that the mirror can survive anything just because I know that people have ways around Itachi's use of it.


We can agree to disagree here then.

I personally think the Mirror itself is invincible but there's plenty of ways to bypass it by going after the Susanoo it needs to anchor itself to the world. But I see where you're coming from. I just honestly just can't find a reason to doubt it at the moment.


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## Rocky (Jun 29, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Basically the best Itachi & Kisame plus backup can do is force a double KO with Jiraiya. Orochimaru is weaker then Itachi, how does that constitute same level at all?



That's what I said. Itachi says that he'd probably tie with Jiraiya if they faced off. Then, he added that backup wouldn't change the outcome.

The only thing that proves is that Kisame and whatever backup they were thinking of bringing are non-factors in a battle of Itachi and Jiraiya's level.

This is pretty hypocritical, you know. You think Itachi's statement cannot be true because of Itachi and Kisame's feats. Feats that didn't come until much later. Feats that made you doubt what is canon. What is the difference between that and doubting Yata Mirror's power due to recent (as in– much later) destructive feats? 



> It has to be ninjutsu or physical from a physical or astral body (which does cover all attacks in the Narutoverse). When a statement like this is made it's obviously within the verse it's set in.



Zetsu: "It's called Yata no Kagami, a shield that can turn back any attack."

I don't see a "within the Narutoverse" anywhere in that statement. 



> I'm taking it at face value yes but I have to consider that Kishimoto is writing about his verse and not thinking about galaxy busters from DBZ when writing the words all attacks.



You can read minds? If so, then what am I thinking about? 

If not, then stop _speculating_ about what Kishimoto is thinking and follow what's written (read: the _canon_) like you told me to do earlier. Any means ANY. If you disagree, then go ahead and admit the hype is hyperbole and therefore not true.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2014)

Kayuga never hyped Yata's Mirror.

Yata's mirror seems to have more blocking power. However if it were to clash with the Yin-Yang shield, the Yin-Yang shield would eliminate Yata's mirror seeing as the latter is Ninjutsu.

Though Madara and Sasuke's Senjutsu enhanced Yata's mirror _should_ stand a decent chance.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Using common sense, the shield is supposed to be tougher than whoever is wielding it.
> So I'd say the shield is probably more durable than Susano'o itself, without taking the elemental wheel aspect and its hype into account.



hmm i guess, tho susano itself has been portrayed as a shield also, but i guess its possibile, The very most i would give it is maybe durability between stage 4 and ps, i doubt it has ps durability tho.


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## Dr. White (Jun 29, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kayuga never hyped Yata's Mirror.


BZ did which is worse for you seeing as he is the actual catalog of history from her until current ninja day.



> Yata's mirror seems to have more blocking power. However if it were to clash with the Yin-Yang shield, the Yin-Yang shield would eliminate Yata's mirror seeing as the latter is Ninjutsu.


It reflects because it is a sacred mirror(see Sasuke's sword), in the case of ninjutsu it is deactivated.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> BZ did which is worse for you seeing as he is the actual catalog of history from her until current ninja day.



Yet he didn't know about Susanoo till Itachi used it. Which is bad for you as the manga says there have been several Susanoo users. 

In other words: BZ isn't as credible as you believe. Seeing as Madara using a giant Susanoo is very hard to miss. 
Especially one covering a full sized Kurama



> It reflects because it is a sacred mirror(see Sasuke's sword), in the case of ninjutsu it is deactivated.



Every "final" Susanoo has the same items (only design differs per user; the shield retains the spiral pattern with all of them). It is why both Perfect Susanoo we saw have the same items. Its just that with Itachi, he's the only one to use his level 4 final Susanoo for extended periods. 

I.E. the "sacred mirror" is just a chakra shield present with in Susanoo as per the databook.


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## Dr. White (Jun 29, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yet he didn't know about Susanoo till Itachi used it. Which is bad for you as the manga says there have been several Susanoo users.


He didn't know what Susano was which only Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, Izuna, and Indra (and possibly Shisui) awakened. It still doesn't mean he wasn't a catalouge for jutsu as he claimed just a couple dozen chapters ago. He claimed to know the ins and outs of Minato and Kakashi, tempted Indra, and watched multiple fights throughout the history of the ninja verse. There is no way you are questioning Manga cannon. He knew about Kaguya, and RS borthers, and still called them invincible, even knowing about Minato and Kakashi ....



> In other words: BZ isn't as credible as you believe. Seeing as Madara using a giant Susanoo is very hard to miss.
> Especially one covering a full sized Kurama


So now I guess Kishi is lying to us in the most recent chapters, and Black Zetsu really isn't one of the main antagonist? The one who set getting Kaguya back into motion? The one who cannonically catalogued ninja like kakashi and Minato? and was used for such an effect by the like so Tobi and Madara?

All that flushed down the toilet because he didn't recongnize Susnao?

I'll Pass.



> Every "final" Susanoo has the same items (only design differs per user; the shield retains the spiral pattern with all of them). It is why both Perfect Susanoo we saw have the same items. Its just that with Itachi, he's the only one to use his level 4 final Susanoo for extended periods.


No they don't. Susanoo's are unique to the user. No one but Itachi has the Sword of totsuka and the Yata Mirror. Only Sasuke may have them because he inherited Itachi's eyes. 

Madara does not have the sword of totsuka, Sasuke's crossbow, or the yata mirror. The only thing they share are Yata beads, and generic swords (which are even different.)

The sword of Totsuka is a gourd bro, the blade is the liquid which carries a fuinjutsu/genjutsu. Madara never showed any of that nor a gourd, nor the mirror of yata. This would have been spoken upon lol.



> I.E. the "sacred mirror" is just a chakra shield present with in Susanoo as per the databook.


The databook is *talking specifically about Itachi's Susano*
Per the databook:

*Spoiler*: __ 



"Databook 3 - Susano'o: 
NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI: Susanoo (Mysterious, All-Encompassing Assistance Ability*)
User: *Uchiha Itachi*
Offensive; Defensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: none"




Hence why it doesn't refer to Crossbows (sasuke's) Yata Beads (a part of the trio not yet revealed), or Perfect susano (not yet revealed). It is talking specifically about Itachi's because he was the only user at publish time.

Also the databook specifically describes the mirror as such:

*Spoiler*: __ 



"-The Mirror of Yata
The *substance-less spiritual shield*. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective."



And..regarding physical/spiritual attacks...

*Spoiler*: __ 



 "and the Mirror of Yata*, upon which all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy."


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> He didn't know what Susano was which only Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, Izuna, and Indra (and possibly Shisui) awakened. It still doesn't mean he wasn't a catalouge for jutsu as he claimed just a couple dozen chapters ago. He claimed to know the ins and outs of Minato and Kakashi, tempted Indra, and watched multiple fights throughout the history of the ninja verse. There is no way you are questioning Manga cannon. He knew about Kaguya, and RS borthers, and still called them invincible, even knowing about Minato and Kakashi ....


 
According to Obito there were more users. Zetsu didn't know about the jutsu, period. That automatically discredits how much Zetsu knows. That is, he doesn't know as much as you claim he does.


> So now I guess Kishi is lying to us in the most recent chapters, and Black Zetsu really isn't one of the main antagonist? The one who set getting Kaguya back into motion? The one who cannonically catalogued ninja like kakashi and Minato? and was used for such an effect by the like so Tobi and Madara?
> 
> All that flushed down the toilet because he didn't recongnize Susnao?
> 
> I'll Pass.



Kishi wasn't lying, but you're misinterpreting what Zetsu meant with Itachi. However we still need to consider how much he knows about a jutsu he didn't know existed till an inferior user (relative to the others) used it.

You have that to explain before you start flaunting Zetsu around.


> No they don't. Susanoo's are unique to the user. No one but Itachi has the Sword of totsuka and the Yata Mirror. Only Sasuke may have them because he inherited Itachi's eyes.
> 
> Madara does not have the sword of totsuka, Sasuke's crossbow, or the yata mirror. The only thing they share are Yata beads, and generic swords (which are even different.)
> 
> The sword of Totsuka is a gourd bro, the blade is the liquid which carries a fuinjutsu/genjutsu. Madara never showed any of that nor a gourd, nor the mirror of yata. This would have been spoken upon lol.



Your databook doesn't say the items are unique. Also Totsuka has only been shown in a form that only Itachi has used for extensive periods. Then we have another final Susanoo with the exact same items. 
I'll pass on your speculation that take the databook's word on it: all Susanoo have the same items.

The only differentiate Kishimoto has shown was the pre-final form Susanoo's. Something the databook didn't comment on.



> The databook is *talking specifically about Itachi's Susano*



It was just talking about Susanoo. Specifically a form only Itachi chose to use for extended periods. If Sasuke and Madara were to use that form, we'd see Totsuka and Yata too.


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## Dr. White (Jun 29, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> According to Obito there were more users. Zetsu didn't know about the jutsu, period. That automatically discredits how much Zetsu knows. That is, he doesn't know as much as you claim he does.


Yeah like Shisui and Indra. You can't use that ambiguous statement as a positive argument for trying to discredit BZ.

Not knowing about one jutsu means jackshit. He knew about amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. He knew about the sacred weapons (which one again are independent weapons ), was used specifically for filming fights and knew about kakashi and Minato down to their strengths and weaknesses (meaning FTG, Kamui, etc). You are trying to use his ingorance of Susano to try and apply to the whole of his knowledge which is a fallacy, especially when we have direct evidence of him being one of the most knowledagble. 



> Kishi wasn't lying, but you're misinterpreting what Zetsu meant with Itachi. However we still need to consider how much he knows about a jutsu he didn't know existed till an inferior user (relative to the others) used it.


It is hard to misinterpret the word invincible. There is no performance with those weapons with anyone other than Itachi. They are his weapons that Oro points out Itachi found. No one else has shown use of them or their effects. 

You completelty skipped around my arguments.
-No one but Itachi has shown the gourd which is the holder of the totsuk blade.
-No one's shield has been used like Itachi's or mentioned to be Yata; which is pretty signifigant since it is mentioned when Itachi uses it and also the third in the trio Yagasaki. 

You have no good evidence that everyone Susano user has those. Lol, you're just sadly making shit up not to give ITachi credit.



> You have that to explain before you start flaunting Zetsu around.


I have shit to explain no one has shown Totsuka or Yata besides Itachi. Show me Madara using his blade for anything other than cutting. Show me madara mentioning having the items. She me madara using the shield. Show me Madara seal something. Show me Madara with the Totsuka Gourd.

don't worry I'll wait.




> Your databook doesn't say the items are unique. Also Totsuka has only been shown in a form that only Itachi has used for extensive periods. Then we have another final Susanoo with the exact same items.
> I'll pass on your speculation that take the databook's word on it: all Susanoo have the same items.


Because at the time of its release Susano was unique to Itachi. Madara wasn't in the manga yet, and Sasuke hadn't awakened it.



> The only differentiate Kishimoto has shown was the pre-final form Susanoo's. Something the databook didn't comment on.


Once again because it was regarding Itachi's him being the sole user at the time.




> It was just talking about Susanoo. Specifically a form only Itachi chose to use for extended periods. If Sasuke and Madara were to use that form, we'd see Totsuka and Yata too.


Lol no. 
-Nobody has the Totsuka Gourd, nobody has the mirror but Itachi (and possibly Sasuke in the future because he has Itachi's eyes.). 
-Nobody but Sasuke has the crossbow, which he also uses as a shield.
-PS swords cannot seal, and are used for DC. No PS has shown a gourd, or Yata's mirror.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 29, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That's the hyperbolic part of the entry. "The Yata Mirror bounces back any kind of attack, while the Totsuka Sword mows down any kind of enemy" is hyperbole. *No different than Mountain-Hollowing Jiraiya (with Chaoodama Rasengan)* or Wind Training Nardo's Rasenshuriken having power that can't be comprehended....and _nobody_ can tank it.
> 
> The Databook actually goes into detail on _how_ Itachi's items function further down. It explains that Totsuka seals what it pierces, and Yata Mirror changes its nature. What I said is true; if Yata Mirror was indestructible, it wouldn't have to change its nature to block attacks.



How exactly is this a hyperbole?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah like Shisui and Indra. You can't use that ambiguous statement as a positive argument for trying to discredit BZ.
> 
> Not knowing about one jutsu means jackshit.



He said there were several users as in that there were more than the number of users we've seen. 

Zetsu who was present in the VotE battle didn't know about Susanoo.

So yes Zetsu knowing jackshit about a jutsu he was commenting on means a lot, especially when he was there when said jutsu was used. 



> It is hard to misinterpret the word invincible
> 
> You have no good evidence that everyone Susano user has those. Lol, you're just sadly making shit up not to give ITachi credit.



Manga: with the current situation (Itachi has Totsuka and Yata) he is pretty much invincible in this battle.

DrWhite: OMG Itachi is invincible, no-one else in this manga is invincible other than Itachi!!

It is *very easy* to misinterpret what Zetsu meant and it is *very easy* to distort the context.

The evidence is the databook which comments on that particular form of Susanoo. I notice you refuse to address that particular form. 



> Because at the time of its release Susano was unique to Itachi. Madara wasn't in the manga yet, and Sasuke hadn't awakened it.



The databook referred to that form of Susanoo. A form that Kishimoto has been suspiciously skipping with Madara and Sasuke. The form these users kept skipping over was the form that the databook described.

You're right in saying Itachi's minor forms lack unique items that Madara, Sasuke and Shisui's had though.


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## Dr. White (Jul 1, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He said there were several users as in that there were more than the number of users we've seen.


No he meant at the time there were more than Sasuke and Itachi (the only people we knew had Susano at the point of the statement)



> Zetsu who was present in the VotE battle didn't know about Susanoo.
> 
> So yes Zetsu knowing jackshit about a jutsu he was commenting on means a lot, especially when he was there when said jutsu was used.


You are trying to use an outlier which has more to do with an error outside the verse to try and discredit Zetsu's knowledge as a whole which is a woefully shitty argument. Like I said he is the verse catalouge per manga, and this wasted stated just chapters ago, he even had knowledge on ninja like kakashi and Minato. You're really grasping at straws here and it's pathetic to see.




> Manga: with the current situation (Itachi has Totsuka and Yata) he is pretty much invincible in this battle.
> 
> DrWhite: OMG Itachi is invincible, no-one else in this manga is invincible other than Itachi!!


He didn't even say that though. He was explaining to WZ what those weapons were, which he stated he knew for certain. He even knew Orochimaru wanted them and sought them out, and explained they were invincible. 



> It is *very easy* to misinterpret what Zetsu meant and it is *very easy* to distort the context.


The databook backs the notion up, and nothing points to Zetsu talking situationally vs Sasuke, because with just V1 Susano Sasuke would have been in the same situation. Kishi showed us Itachi decimate a manda dwarfing summon and Oro in 3 hits after to dsiplay just how powerful it was (which Zetsu also had no way of commentiing on)



> The evidence is the databook which comments on that particular form of Susanoo. I notice you refuse to address that particular form.


What the hell are you talking about? It addresses the use of Susano which was relvant at the time. It explained Itachi's without giving too much up of what we would see with Sasuke when he went stage through stage. 

The weapons Itachi has aren't things he developed, they are things Itachi sought out and got. They are mentioned in the DB because they are prominent in Kishi's showing of Itachi at that point, and he wanted to flesh them out in the DB. 

I don't even understand what you're trying to argue?





> The databook referred to that form of Susanoo. A form that Kishimoto has been suspiciously skipping with Madara and Sasuke. The form these users kept skipping over was the form that the databook described.


Every form Itachi showed (V1-V4) Sasuke and Madara have also shown....
Itachi's V4 (notice the gourd which is housing the Totsuka Blade, and Yata's Mirror)

 (No gourd or shield, just his bow which doubles as a shield and the Ama Jewel)

Madara's V4 (No gourd and different swords than Sasuke/ Totsuka)

Every Susano can use random swords like the curved one's madara used, or his PS Katana. 

Sasuke uses Katana with PS and sabers with lower forms



The point is those swords are all for physical damage, except Totsuka because it is an independant legendary item Itachi sought out, which triples as physically damaging, Fuinjutsu, and Genjutsu.



> You're right in saying Itachi's minor forms lack unique items that Madara, Sasuke and Shisui's had though.


Madara only showed swords. Sasuke had Swords, a bow/arrows, and enton jewel, and Itachi had swords, his shield, and the special Totsuka. If Itachi would have gotten PS, Madara's PS would be the weakest.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No he meant at the time there were more than Sasuke and Itachi (the only people we knew had Susano at the point of the statement)



So you know every single person in the Narutoverse that ever awakened Susanoo? 



> You are trying to use an outlier which has more to do with an error outside the verse to try and discredit Zetsu's knowledge as a whole which is a woefully shitty argument. Like I said he is the verse catalouge per manga, and this wasted stated just chapters ago, he even had knowledge on ninja like kakashi and Minato. You're really grasping at straws here and it's pathetic to see.



What the hell are you talking about? 

> Zetsu talks about Susanoo
> Zetsu knows nothing about Susanoo when Itachi used it
> Zetsu saw Susanoo in action in the VotE

The only one clutching straws here is you: you're repeating the same thing over and over *without* adequately addressing this key factor.

Why do I claim you're grasping straws? You're telling me not to question how much Zetsu knows about Susanoo because he didn't know about it; he saw it in action.




> He didn't even say that though. He was explaining to WZ what those weapons were, which he stated he knew for certain. He even knew Orochimaru wanted them and sought them out, and explained they were invincible.



He said with that combination Itachi was invincible in that fight. There was nothing Orochimaru or Sasuke could do in the situation.
Unless you're telling me that Zetsu is trying to say that Itachi is invincible in that the Juubi, Kayuga and Hagoromo can't touch him.



> What the hell are you talking about? It addresses the use of Susano which was relvant at the time. It explained Itachi's without giving too much up of what we would see with Sasuke when he went stage through stage.



It addresses the one Susanoo form which only Itachi has used for extended periods. You're not understanding that is a very huge point. Kishimoto has carefully made the superior straight tomoe users skip that particular form of Susanoo. 
If they all had different items, then Kishi would have no problem showing them as casually as he did with the other forms.



> The weapons Itachi has aren't things he developed, they are things Itachi sought out and got. They are mentioned in the DB because they are prominent in Kishi's showing of Itachi at that point, and he wanted to flesh them out in the DB.



When you can tell me when Itachi found a shield and sword, that would be nice. In the mean time, I'd like to know when Sasuke stored a bow and arrow into his eyes too. Namely a bow which turns into a shield.



> Madara only showed swords. Sasuke had Swords, a bow/arrows, and enton jewel, and Itachi had swords, his shield, and the special Totsuka. If Itachi would have gotten PS, Madara's PS would be the weakest.



You're saying Itachi's PS>Madara's PS.

Okay: now I'm done.


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## LostSelf (Jul 1, 2014)

I find very weird that BZ, the guy that was studying the Uchihas all over the years, and saw the fight between Madara and Hashirama, didn't know what Susano'o was when Itachi used it.

Since it smells to me like a 'Retcon', when BZ said that he was not the wise man Kishi made him to be now, therefore i wouldn't put those words of that chapter until now above the other shield.

So i say Nunoboko's shield's hype exceeds Yata's.


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