# Burning Legion(Warcraft) vs Middel Earth



## Falco-san (Apr 11, 2009)

This time Kil'jaeden decides to invade a more fammiliar setting. Middle-Earth.
Will the forces of Middle-Earth be able to whitstand the Legion? Or will the Legion be able to corrupt and destroy enough people to lay waste to Middle-Earth?

Again, a full scale assault.  

The fight takes place during the time period of the Books/Movies(Fellowship/Two towers.Return)


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## Yellow Temperance (Apr 11, 2009)

During which age


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## Wesker (Apr 11, 2009)

Is Illuvatar in this and does the Burning Legion have Sargeras?


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## Falco-san (Apr 11, 2009)

Yellow Temperance said:


> During which age


When the Movies/Books take place.
Evil and Good may work together, but the Legion is allowed to corrupt people if they see fit.



Wesker said:


> Is Illuvatar in this and does the Burning Legion have Sargeras?


 No, this is the Legion under command of Kil'jaeden. And no Illuvatar


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## Wesker (Apr 11, 2009)

Are the Valar in this? Because if this is just middle earth and not Valinor I see the Legion taking them down via corrupting some leaders to weaken them and then using brute force to take them down.


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## Falco-san (Apr 11, 2009)

Wesker said:


> Are the Valar in this? Because if this is just middle earth and not Valinor I see the Legion taking them down via corrupting some leaders to weaken them and then using brute force to take them down.



The fight takes place during the time period of the Books/Movies(Fellowship/Two towers.Return) If the Valar are available for battle at that point then yes.


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## Wesker (Apr 11, 2009)

Well the thing is that Valar are in Valinor not Middle Earth so they can fight in the lord of the rings verse but they are not in Middle Earth.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 11, 2009)

If the Valar are involved, Legion is doomed. If they aren't, Middle Earth is doomed.

*Spoiler*: __ 





See the small green Golem things?

This is how big they are.





ME is squashed.


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## The World (Apr 11, 2009)

Kil'jaeden soloes.


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## Choshino (Apr 12, 2009)

As some have said corrupting the leaders and by brute force and the vast amount of power that Kil'jaeden have they will crush the people. monsters and creatures of middle earth and burn it to the ground.


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## FrostXian (Apr 12, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> If the Valar are involved, Legion is doomed. If they aren't, Middle Earth is doomed.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



That's a tiny infernal. 
Here is a LESSER infernal.


In the original WC3 and ingame cinematics, they're about as tall as a 3 storied building, constantly on fire and .. well they're pretty much like the movie balrogs made out of rocks.

Imagine it raining balrogs.


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## Raigen (Apr 12, 2009)

It's not gonna matter what age. Middle Earth is absolutely fucked. They lack the magical uberness that WoW is known for. And really, the Balrog is about the equivalent of a Doomguard in WoW. Actual Doomguards are 20ft tall. Warlocks can summon them. Felguard are 10ft.


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## Commander Shepard (Apr 12, 2009)

"Lack the magical uberness"?  Can you say "omnipotent god"?  Or "continent-busting ultimate evil"?  Or "Lightning-fast elves"?

The age sure as hell matters.

@FrostXian:  Well, First-Age elves could imagine it raining Balrogs.  They had to deal with armies of them.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 12, 2009)

Don't listen to Raigen about Warcraft. He masterbates it too hard and says the words "You don't understand" like some emo over and over to give any ground. The Titans combined have done what one Valar does. The one that created all the stars in the universe. Since Tolkien stated that LotR verse is basically a parallel universe to our own, that Valar must have created this:

That is a galactic cluster. Each one of those 'stars' is a galaxy.

I think her creation is better than the Titans, so far.


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## Raigen (Apr 13, 2009)

There was only 1 "lightning fast" elf during the 1st Age, and that was all. Their magic sucked. And we're talking Middle-Earth, not deities. If you wanted deities, Sargeras would absolutely fistrape LotR. Really, it's a universe consisting of one fricken planet. The Maiar are useless and can't act without a mortal body and in mortal form their powers absolutely suck and don't even measure up to a common WoW mage.

And you want armies? Try and endlessly spawning horde of Demons that range in size and appearance. Felguard, Felhounds, Doomguard and Eredar are just a minute fraction of the various demons among the Legion. Think countless words whose inhabitants had all been turned into demons by Sargeras, essentially forming an infinite number of variations. Doesn't include their leaders such as the Dreadlords (Nathrezim), Pitlords and Demonlords.

The Legion tosses in a few Felreavers and just watches the Elven armies get slaughtered.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> If you wanted deities, Sargeras would absolutely fistrape LotR. Really, it's a universe consisting of one fricken planet. The Maiar are useless and can't act without a mortal body and in mortal form their powers absolutely suck and don't even measure up to a common WoW mage.


His highest feat is planet busting. That's it. As stated before, Varda, a single LotR deity created all the stars in the sky. She does what the it takes the entire Pantheon to do.


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## Raigen (Apr 13, 2009)

No, you're assuming that's all. He helped battle against the Old Gods before the world had even formed. The Titans are cosmics. Just entering the world would destroy it. Sargeras is beyond planet-busting. All Five Aspects can act like a watered-down version of the Infinity Gauntlet on Azeroth, and all that power together wouldn't be able to even scratch Sargeras. The Aspects knew it, Krasus knew it. Hell when several of them attacked Sargeras through the portal he didn't even seem to notice.

LotR has *one* deity that did anything. Made one planet and stars. Big whoop. The Pantheon filled galaxies with planets and life. Judging by other fictions there are as much as 700 planets in a galaxy. The Pantheon formed and created over 100 million worlds. If we go by those numbers, then the Pantheon effectively spread life and creation through over 142-thousand galaxies.


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## The World (Apr 13, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> His highest feat is planet busting. That's it. As stated before, Varda, a single LotR deity created all the stars in the sky. She does what the it takes the entire Pantheon to do.



Pantheon are cosmics though their combined power could possibly wreck the LOTR gods barring Iluvatar.


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## Commander Shepard (Apr 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> There was only 1 "lightning fast" elf during the 1st Age, and that was all.



Other elves were on his level.  Feanor, Finarfin, Thingol, etc.



> Their magic sucked. And we're talking Middle-Earth, not deities. If you wanted deities, Sargeras would absolutely fistrape LotR.



OP only banned Illuvatar, but already banned Sargeras.



> Really, it's a universe consisting of one fricken planet.



Did you read ScreenXSurfer's post?



> The Maiar are useless and can't act without a mortal body and in mortal form their powers absolutely suck and don't even measure up to a common WoW mage.



Prove it.



> And you want armies? Try and endlessly spawning horde of Demons that range in size and appearance. Felguard, Felhounds, Doomguard and Eredar are just a minute fraction of the various demons among the Legion. Think countless words whose inhabitants had all been turned into demons by Sargeras, essentially forming an infinite number of variations. Doesn't include their leaders such as the Dreadlords (Nathrezim), Pitlords and Demonlords.



Try armies of Maiar, High Elves, Balrogs, Orcs, and dragons that destroyed half a continent in their battles.



> The Legion tosses in a few Felreavers and just watches the Elven armies get slaughtered.



Can Felreavers destroy half a continent?



Raigen said:


> No, you're assuming that's all. He helped battle against the Old Gods before the world had even formed. The Titans are cosmics. Just entering the world would destroy it. Sargeras is beyond planet-busting. All Five Aspects can act like a watered-down version of the Infinity Gauntlet on Azeroth, and all that power together wouldn't be able to even scratch Sargeras. The Aspects knew it, Krasus knew it. Hell when several of them attacked Sargeras through the portal he didn't even seem to notice.



Irrelevant.  Sargeras has been banned.  I admit, he would give the LotRverse one hell of a problem, but it doesn't matter.



> LotR has *one* deity that did anything. Made one planet and stars. Big whoop. The Pantheon filled galaxies with planets and life. Judging by other fictions there are as much as 700 planets in a galaxy. The Pantheon formed and created over 100 million worlds. If we go by those numbers, then the Pantheon effectively spread life and creation through over 142-thousand galaxies.



You're arguing against yourself.  So one deity in LotR did what it took the whole Pantheon of Warcraft to do... can you see where this is going?


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 14, 2009)

Just noticed this.



Raigen said:


> No, you're assuming that's all. He helped battle against the Old Gods before the world had even formed. The Titans are cosmics. Just entering the world would destroy it. Sargeras is beyond planet-busting. All Five Aspects can act like a watered-down version of the Infinity Gauntlet on Azeroth, and all that power together wouldn't be able to even scratch Sargeras. The Aspects knew it, Krasus knew it. Hell when several of them attacked Sargeras through the portal he didn't even seem to notice.


Outside of the Old Gods part, I would like confirmation on all of this. Brox threw an ax at Sargeras and it harmed him. A single fucking ax which caused Sargeras to roar in pain. The wound was large enough that Krasus noticed it.


And again with the cosmic crap. Just wtf are cosmics? How are the Titans cosmics while the Valar are not? 


> LotR has *one* deity that did anything.


Wrong. Don't go into debates without knowing the subject material.


> Made one planet and stars. Big whoop. The Pantheon filled galaxies with planets and life. Judging by other fictions there are as much as 700 planets in a galaxy.


Did you just say there are 700 planets in a galaxy. 


> The Pantheon formed and created over 100 million worlds. If we go by those numbers, then the Pantheon effectively spread life and creation through over 142-thousand galaxies.


OH BIG FUCKING WOOP, 100 MILLION WORLDS. THE MILKY WAY HAS 200 TO 400 BILLION STARS IN IT!!!

In one of Tolkein's letters, he stated that his fantasy world is an alternate universe of ours.

Each one of those lights is a galactic cluster. Source? National Geographic. In the little boxes you can see at least 10-25 galaxies each. Assuming they're all equal density to our own, you're looking at anywhere between trillions to quadrillions of stars. And that's just what's in those boxes. Take a look at the larger picture and you have thousands of galaxies and most likely around a quintillion stars.

Again, from _one_ deity. Not even the strongest of them.


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## The World (Apr 14, 2009)

I call bullshit


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 14, 2009)

J.R.R. Tolkien said:
			
		

> Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd > middle-erd, an ancient name for the 'oikoumene', the abiding place of Men , the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell). The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary.
> 
> -
> 
> Mine is not an 'imaginary' world, but an imaginary historical moment on 'Middle-earth' - which is our habitation.


That sounds alternate universe to me.


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## The World (Apr 14, 2009)

I was talking about one Valar creating a galaxy. And Sargeras never came to Azeroth(except when he tried to enter the portal), he sent an avatar of himself.


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## Fenix (Apr 14, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Just noticed this.
> 
> 
> Outside of the Old Gods part, I would like confirmation on all of this. Brox threw an ax at Sargeras and it harmed him. A single fucking ax which caused Sargeras to roar in pain. The wound was large enough that Krasus noticed it.



He never roared in pain

Besides it was an axe forged by the avatar of nature itself


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 14, 2009)

Silmarillion said:
			
		

> But as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Il?vatar for the coming of the Firstborn, Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in E?.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
She made all the stars.


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## The World (Apr 14, 2009)

Still not a combat feat. 

And didn't 2 trees exist as the sun and the moon for Arda? That were watched over by elves? Those must be some small stars.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 14, 2009)

That depends. Making a star on someones head would suck for them.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 14, 2009)

Fenix said:


> He never roared in pain





			
				The Sundering said:
			
		

> With a strained roar, Brox managed to right himself. The ax came spinning around.
> This time, he knew that it was no mere demon hound he hit.
> A resounding bellow of outrage deafened the injured warrior. Through what remained of his good eye, Brox caught sight of a titanic, horned figure in molten black armor whose thick mane and beard appeared to be composed of wildly dancing flames. The orc could not make out the giant?s features well enough, yet somehow knew them to be both wondrously perfect and terribly awful at the same time.
> 
> ...


So it didn't cause him harm, he was just pissed and the ax did cut him open. 



> Besides it was an axe forged by the avatar of nature itself





			
				 Well of Eternity said:
			
		

> ?Kneel before it, my student. You, too, warrior. Malfurion, place your hands upon the branch, then let him place his palms atop your hands.? When they had done this, the forest lord commanded, ?Now, warrior, clear your mind of all but the weapon. Thinkonly of it! Time is of the essence. Malfurion, you must open your mind and let his thoughts flow to yours. I will guide you more when that is done.?
> 
> The night elf did as he was told. He cleared his thoughts as his shan?do had early on taught him, then reached out to link himself to the orc. Instantly a primal force bullied its way into his mind. Malfurion almost rejected it, but then calmed. He accepted Brox?s thoughts and let the image of what the warrior wanted take shape.
> 
> ...



He didn't make it, he did later enchant it though. Also, avatar of nature?  
How do you get that? He's a crossbreed between Malygos and Elune and just a damn fine druid. If anything is the avatar of nature, it's Ysera, his teacher.



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> That depends. Making a star on someones head would suck for them.



This.


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## madcow3005 (Apr 14, 2009)

Cenarius is far from the embodiment of nature.

Both Alextrasza and Ysera are more powerful than him, embodying the life and growth aspects of nature, respectively.

There was also a Titan that was responsible for the shaping of life, a bronze female. She endowed Alextrasza and Ysera with a portion of her power.

Cenarius was just a minor deity of the forest.


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## The World (Apr 14, 2009)

Elune the goddess of life gave birth to Cenarius so i'd say he's a pretty powerful embodiment of nature.

And that Titan you are talking about is Eonar a Vanir.


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## ∅ (Apr 14, 2009)

In the first age Ambar was flat, a disc-shaped world that float on water under the sky. The world gains a spherical shape first in second age.

The Lord of the Rings win this, but barely--if Sargeras or any other great Titan would lead the legion they would win.


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## madcow3005 (Apr 14, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> Elune the goddess of life gave birth to Cenarius so i'd say he's a pretty powerful embodiment of nature.
> 
> And that Titan you are talking about is Eonar a Vanir.



Regardless of his parentage, he was tutored by Ysera and Alextrasza. They are both more powerful than him.

And yet, even the strongest dragon aspect, Deathwing with the Demon Soul, could not replicate the feats of the Valar.


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## Abigail (Apr 14, 2009)

Raigen said:


> LotR has *one* deity that did anything. Made one planet and stars. Big whoop. The Pantheon filled galaxies with planets and life. *Judging by other fictions there are as much as 700 planets in a galaxy. *The Pantheon formed and created over 100 million worlds. If we go by those numbers, then the Pantheon effectively spread life and creation through over 142-thousand galaxies.



Learn Astronomy, Galaxys have Trillions of planets in them.


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## madcow3005 (Apr 14, 2009)

Ranmyaku Arashi said:


> Learn Astrology, Galaxys have Trillions of planets in them.



Astrology is fortune telling using the planets and stars.

Astronomy is the study of the celestial bodies.


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## Abigail (Apr 14, 2009)

madcow3005 said:


> Astrology is fortune telling using the planets and stars.
> 
> Astronomy is the study of the celestial bodies.



Stupid fucking auto spell check.


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## The World (Apr 14, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> She made all the stars.



*Eä, (the Universe) - Eä is the Quenya name for the universe, as a realization of the vision of the Ainur. The word comes from the Quenya word for to be. Thus, Eä is the World that Is, as distinguished from the World that Is Not. It may thus be assumed that everything outside Eä, including the Timeless Halls of Ilúvatar, either has no material form or exists in another universe. The Ainur, angelic beings from the Timeless Halls beyond Eä, refer to it as "the Little Kingdom". This refers to the fact that within the mind of Eru Ilúvatar (God), all creation that humans can perceive is really just a tiny thing in comparison. Eä was the word spoken by Eru Ilúvatar by which he brought the universe into actuality.*

Seems more like this Iluvatar made like a pocket dimension for this stuff and everything is tiny.

*Vaiya, Ekkaia, the Enfolding Ocean, the Encircling Sea, (Outer space) - A dark sea that surrounds the world before the cataclysm at the end of the Second Age. Vaiya flows completely around the world, forming a sea below it and a form of air above it. Arda is described as floating on Vaiya, like a ship on a sea. Ulmo the Lord of Waters dwells in Vaiya, below the roots of Arda. Vaiya is described as extremely cold: where its waters meet the waters of Belegaer in the northwest of Middle-earth a chasm of ice is formed, the Helcaraxë. Vaiya cannot support any ships except the boats of Ulmo: the ships of the Númenóreans that tried to sail on it sank, drowning the sailors.[citation needed] The Sun passes through Vaiya on its way around the world, warming it as it passes. After Arda was made round Vaiya apparently disappeared, although it may have been changed into the upper atmosphere of the world.*


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## Commander Shepard (Apr 14, 2009)

Is that a wiki quote?  Rather worthless compared to quotes from the actual source material...


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## Raigen (Apr 14, 2009)

Btw, Broxxigar's axe was made plot-devicey in that way so that they could distract Sargeras long enough to collapse the portal. It didn't really injure him. It barely gave him a scratch. And it wasn't just made by Cenarius, but it was forged with the aid of Malfurion as well. Plus the fact that the power of Nature is the polar opposite of what Sargeras had become, so it was almost guaranteed to affect him.

What effectively happened was just give a place for Krasus, other mages and the Aspects to focus all of their attacks on at once, just to make Sargeras feel an itch. That's all. They needed that second or two for Furion and Illidan to collapse the portal.


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## Estrecca (Apr 14, 2009)

There is a number of different interpretations of the Valar power level in Tolkien's writing. He wrote a number of revisions and the last version (which isn't the one that appears in the Silmarillion) was published in the "History Of Middle Earth" series as part of the "The Myths Transformed" Essay.

Relevant parts follow:



			
				Tolkien said:
			
		

> This descends from the oldest forms of the mythology - when it was still intended to be no more than another primitive mythology, though more coherent and less 'savage'. It was consequently a 'Flat Earth' cosmogony (much easier to manage anyway): the Matter of Númenor had not been devised. It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to their measure of understanding). *What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon actors, such as Fëanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor)*; but already far back - from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas. At that point (in reconsideration of the early cosmogonic parts) I was inclined to adhere to the Flat Earth and the astronomically absurd business of the making of the Sun and Moon.



In other words, the creation story as told in the Silmarillion = bullshit spouted by humans who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a map.



			
				Tolkien said:
			
		

> After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Eä, those who were the noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Ilúvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. And when they had chosen that point and region where it should be, they began the labours that were needed. Others there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Ilúvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all.



So much for the "pocket dimension" stuff.



			
				Tolkien said:
			
		

> Now the Sun was designed to be the heart of Arda, and the Valar purposed that it should give light to all that Realm, unceasingly and without wearying or diminution, and that from its light the world should receive health and life and growth. Therefore Varda set there the most ardent and beautiful of all those spirits that had entered with her into Eä, and she was named Ār(i),18 and Varda gave to her keeping a portion of the gift of Ilúvatar so that the Sun should endure and be blessed and give blessing. The Sun, the loremasters tell us, was in that beginning named Âs (which is as near as it can be interpreted Warmth, to which are joined Light and Solace), and that the spirit therefore was called Āzi? (or later Āri?). But Melkor, as hath been told, lusted after all light, desiring it jealously for his own. Moreover he soon perceived that in As there was a light that had been concealed from him, and which had a power of which he had not thought. Therefore, afire at once with desire and anger, he went to Âs [written above: Asa], and he spoke to Árië, saying: 'I have chosen thee, and thou shalt be my spouse, even as Varda is to Manwë, and together we shall wield all splendour and mastery. Then the kingship of Arda shall be mine in deed as in right, and thou shalt be the partner of my glory.' But Árië rejected Melkor and rebuked him, saying: 'Speak not of right, which thou hast long forgotten. Neither for thee nor by thee alone was Eä made; and thou shalt not be King of Arda. Beware therefore; for there is in the heart of As a light in which thou hast no part, and a fire which will not serve thee. Put not out thy hand to it. For though thy potency may destroy it, it will burn thee and thy brightness will be made dark.' Melkor did not heed her warning, but cried in his wrath: 'The gift which is withheld I take!' and he ravished Árië, desiring both to abase her and to take into himself her powers. Then the spirit of Árië went up like a flame of anguish and wrath, and departed for ever from Arda; and the Sun was bereft of the Light of Varda, and was stained by the assault of Melkor. And being for a long while without rule it flamed with excessive heat or grew too cool, so that grievous hurt was done to Arda and the fashioning of the world was marred and delayed, until with long toil the Valar made a new order.
> But even as Árië foretold, Melkor was burned and his brightness darkened, and he gave no more light, but light pained him exceedingly and he hated it.



Flowery or not, the meaning of this stuff is pretty clear: Melkor went to the Sun and raped there the Maiar caretaker of the star. Apparently, the fact that the Sun was originally powered by a measure of Eru-Power (TM) was the only thing that actually hurt Melkor in this whole business, instead of being, you know, in a freaking star.

EDIT: By the way, Tolkien also changed his mind a number of times about the number of Balrogs that Morgoth had around. A number of versions suggest large numbers of rather puny balrogs (Tuor is mentioned to have killed dozens of them in one version of the Fall of Gondolin), whereas Tolkien's final words in the matter state that there were never more than a handful ("no more than seven" is the exact quote, IIRC) serving Morgoth.


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## Commander Shepard (Apr 14, 2009)

I need to get that History of Middle Earth.  All I have now is the Silmarillion, Hobbit, and main LotR series.


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## Fenix (Apr 14, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> So it didn't cause him harm, he was just pissed and the ax did cut him open.



Cut him open? A little too strong of a phrase 




> He didn't make it, he did later enchant it though. Also, avatar of nature?
> How do you get that? He's a crossbreed between *Malygos* and Elune and just a damn fine druid. If anything is the avatar of nature, it's Ysera, his teacher.



What? I think you meant Malorne.  

Anyways, all the demigods were representative of certain aspects of the world. Only in a more subtle way than most fictions since that's just how Warcraft is


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