# Taka vs A



## ARGUS (Jun 5, 2014)

*Taka vs A*

The taka vs Killer bee fight is replaced by taka vs A,,,, as now they have to try and kill the raikage for tobi

Starting Distance: Same as Taka vs Killer Bee
Location: Taka vs Killer Bee 
Intel: Manga
Intent: To Kill
Mindset: IC  
Restrictions: None

Who wins?


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jun 5, 2014)

Probably Ei. Juugo, Karin and Suigetsu are useless and this Sasuke only had amaterasu, which Ei easily avoided. He didn't even have his enton ability yet. 

So yea, Ei takes this without much difficulty.


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## Bonly (Jun 5, 2014)

Taka loses quite badly here. Chidori and it's variants isn't gonna do much to A, Ama can be dodged, Sasuke isn't likely to land genjutsu successfully. Jugo's+Suigetsu's attacks aren't go hurt much if they land a hit on A but A can pretty much dodge everything Jugo+Suigetsu. Karin isn't going to do much and without Susanoo Sasuke won't be able to protect himself to well either. A would have to do some major stupid things in order to lose this fight


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## Itachі (Jun 5, 2014)

Pretty much what Saiyan Prince and Bonly said, Sasuke will have to pretty much solo this and he has nothing of much use in his arsenal that would be effective against Ei.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2014)

That Sasuke loses. Not only he lacks Susano to defend against A's best speed - he also was stated to be weakened from fighting Itachi. So he might not be able to replicate his Elbow-dodging feat. Only thing that can harm _and_ tag Raikage is Kirin. But Taka ain't going to live long enough for it to be used.


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## Katou (Jun 5, 2014)

Ei solos . . probably low-mid difficulty . .

His MS wasn't Commendable yet at the time . . 
without Susano nor Amaterasu manipulation  . . he dies badly


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## trance (Jun 5, 2014)

> The taka vs Killer bee fight is replaced by taka vs A



Yea, Ei wins quite easily. Base Bee manhandled Juugo and Suigetsu without even breaking a sweat. Ei is definitely not that much physically weaker than his brother. Not to mention the fact that he's quite a bit faster than Bee. Sasuke only poses a small threat since he doesn't have Susanoo or Enton, so he doesn't have the benefit of being able to counter Ei's insta-blitz via V2.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 5, 2014)

Lol, what kind of match up is this? It was already made clear that Suigetsu and Jugo are fodder to the Raikage and it was also made clear that Sasuke needs Enton and Susanoo to even begin thinking of competing with Ay. Without either he gets raped, along with his team.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2014)

People are saying Sasuke needs Enton and Stage-1 Susano'o to contend with Ei, but obviously Sasuke awakened those abilities in his fight with Killer-B. So he will likely awaken those abilities throughout this battle against Ei. 

Anyway Taka probably goes down similar to how it went down against B, but ultimately Taka will perform better

Juugo and Suigetsu get punked the same way as against B. 

Sasuke fights Ei in CQC, and hits Ei with Chidori-Blade or Chidori. He is caught off guard by Ei's durability, and Ei liager bombs him. Suigetsu and Juugo hold Ei off while Karin heals Sasuke. 

Sasuke uses Amaterasu against Ei, who dodges it. Ei blitz Sasuke KO'ing him again, and Juubo heals him this time, while Karin and Suigetsu defend. 

Sasuke at this point has probably advanced his Mangekyo far enough to use Susano'o and Enton. Fight pretty much turns into Kages duel from there, except Sasuke can heal via Karin again while Ei can't. 

Taka should win high difficulty.


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## Katou (Jun 5, 2014)

Sasuke will die before he even awakens his true MS ability
plus he only survived Liger Bomb via Susano . .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2014)

A solos low - mid difficulty.


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## Rocky (Jun 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke fights Ei in CQC, and hits Ei with Chidori-Blade or Chidori. He is caught off guard by Ei's durability, and Ei liager bombs him. Suigetsu and Juugo hold Ei off while Karin heals Sasuke.



1.) Why is Liger Bomb not killing weakened Sauce on impact. It would probably break his neck and shatter his skull & brain. 

2.) How is Karin capable of healing such damage?  



> Sasuke uses Amaterasu against Ei, who dodges it. Ei blitz Sasuke KO'ing him again, and Juubo heals him this time, while Karin and Suigetsu defend.



1.) Ē can just v2 blitz Jūgo and Erubō him to prevent Sasuke from being healed a second time. Nobody on Taka can intercept his maximum power flicker.

2.) Since Raikage opted for a Raiton neck chop (that broke Susano'o) in the Manga canon when he actually charged Sasuke after avoiding Amaterasu, why would he do something differently here? Nobody on Taka can heal decapitation. 



> Sasuke at this point has probably advanced his Mangekyo far enough to use Susano'o and Enton. Fight pretty much turns into Kages duel from there, except Sasuke can heal via Karin again while Ei can't.



Ē isn't furious with Sasuke for killing B in this specific match up, so he won't attack into Enton to prove a point. He would just outlast Sasuke's reserves from there, considering Sauce would barley have any left.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2014)

It took Sasuke two critical injuries from B to awaken normal Amaterasu. It should take more than that to further develop MS. He dies before that.


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## LostSelf (Jun 5, 2014)

Ei cuts them all in half. Reasons? People stated almost all of them above.


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## Kyu (Jun 5, 2014)

Unlike Bee, A doesn't fuck around. 

He punches Sasuke in the cunt.


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## Ether (Jun 5, 2014)

Ay wins low-mid diff.
He dodges Amaterasu using his v2 cloak speed.
Sasuke has no Susanoo to guard himself and Ay is moving too fast for him to genjutsu properly.
Ay chops Taka with his lightning chop and smashes Sasuke to the ground with a Liger bomb.


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## egressmadara (Jun 5, 2014)

A blitzes the lot of them. Suigetsu is naturally weak against Raiton, so merging with the lake won't do him a lot of good, if he even gets the chance to get there even. Juugo is only gonna get punted, and could only hold the Raikage back for a few seconds. Sasuke has hardly developed his MS powers, and does not have the same control over Amaterasu as in the Kage Summit, and it's arguable if he can even generate as strong of a Susanoo as the one that tanked Liger Bomb.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> 1.) Why is Liger Bomb not killing weakened Sauce on impact. It would probably break his neck and shatter his skull & brain.


Sasuke tanked HB3 Lariate w/o dying on impact. He won't die here.



> How is Karin capable of healing such damage?


Considering she healed the Hokage after being cut in half; easily



> Ē can just v2 blitz Jūgo and Erubō him to prevent Sasuke from being healed a second time. Nobody on Taka can intercept his maximum power flicker.


You need to accept that he doesn't constantly use maximum power flickers. He doesn't even have the feats to suggest he can use those flickers non-stop.



> ) Since Raikage opted for a Raiton neck chop (that broke Susano'o) in the Manga canon when he actually charged Sasuke after avoiding Amaterasu, why would he do something differently here? Nobody on Taka can heal decapitation.


Since it's an entirely different situation....maybe? 
And Karin probably can heal decapitation since she healed Tsunade after she was cut in half. 




> Ē isn't furious with Sasuke for killing B in this specific match up, so he won't attack into Enton to prove a point. He would just outlast Sasuke's reserves from there, considering Sauce would barley have any left.


Ei isn't smart enough to fight this way. I've recently read a-lot of Ei's dialog in the raws and Kishi specifically has him use language that indicates he's uneducated moron. We've also never once seen Ei take these outlasting tactics, and even if he did Sasuke would just out-smart him and hit him anyway. Given the dudes portrayed IQ I'm not believing that he's strategically evading everything an intelligent ninja like Sasuke can throw at him. Not to mention the longer the match drags on the more MS will evolve, until Ei is even more fucked.


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## trance (Jun 5, 2014)

> Kishi specifically has him use language that indicates he's uneducated moron.



Temperamental as hell, yes but an uneducated moron?


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## Rocky (Jun 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke tanked HB3 Lariate w/o dying on impact. He won't die here.



v1 B's Lariat to the midsection wouldn't inflict similar damage to Ē's Susano'o cracking Liger Bomb. They target different area's of the body, and full on slams to the head/neck area are more damaging than clotheslines. 

So...why are you bringing up B's Lariat.



> Considering she healed the Hokage after being cut in half; easily.



She did so with the help of Katsuyu, and bisection is not the type of damage Liger Bomb would inflict. 



> You need to accept that he doesn't constantly use maximum power flickers. He doesn't even have the feats to suggest he can use those flickers non-stop.



For someone who _constantly_ bitches about the Straw Man Fallacy, you'd be better off not committing it yourself. 

Please point out where I said Ē would continuously use his v2 flciker. Once you stop and actually _read_ (concept!), you'll realize that I never said it at all.   



> Since it's an entirely different situation....maybe?



_Entirely_ different?

Your words:

*"Sasuke uses Amaterasu against Ei, who dodges it. Ei blitz Sasuke"*

That's the exact same chain that happened in the Manga, so I'll ask again? why is Raikage not opting for his neck chop like he did in canon?



> Ei isn't smart enough to fight this way. I've recently read a-lot of Ei's dialog in the raws and Kishi specifically has him use language that indicates he's uneducated moron.





Oh man, where do I fucking _start?_ First, let's not judge somebody's tactical capabilities in battle, or level of education in general, based on their dialogue. No, actually, based on whichever parts of their foreign dialogue you can grasp. That's just ridiculous and shallow, even for you.

Second, why in god's good name would Ē hold the title of "Kage," a _political_ position, let alone be appointed General of the whole goddamn Allied Forces in the most important and grand war _of all time_ if he was "an uneducated moron?"

Lastly, even if he _was_ dumb, even your average Genin should be intelligent enough to avoid swinging into everlasting fire. If he isn't seeing red, he has no reason to harm himself.



> We've also never once seen Ei take these outlasting tactics, and even if he did Sasuke would just out-smart him and hit him anyway. Given the dudes portrayed IQ I'm not believing that he's strategically evading everything an intelligent ninja like Sasuke can throw at him. Not to mention the longer the match drags on the more MS will evolve, until Ei is even more fucked.



The only thing Ē needs to worry about is Amaterasu. 

The more the match drags on, the more Sasuke tires. In case you forgot, the Mangekyō is highly taxing, and he hadn't recovered from his battle with Itachi. He'll probably be dead before he even awakens Susano'o.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 5, 2014)

> while Karin and Suigetsu defend.


Not even remotely possible at any point in this simulation.

At this point in the manga Ei had the fastest shunshin in the verse, and arguably top-5 durability. Suigetsu and Karin are defending against that?


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## Veracity (Jun 5, 2014)

Ay absolutely destroys this team with no difficulty. He canonically clashes with Sasuke and ends up liger bombing him Into oblivion. If that doesn't work, he pumps into V2 and blitzes the entire team.


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## LeBoyka (Jun 5, 2014)

*Ei Fodder-Stomps.*

Ei finished off Jugo easily in their match-up at the 5 kage summit; Suigetsu is weak against lightning so he's getting stomped quickly. Karin is useless. Sasuke's genjutsu and amaterasou will not land - without Susano, he gets raped in a speed-blitz. Also, Ei doesn't play around usually; so he would end this as quickly as possible.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> v1 B's Lariat to the midsection wouldn't inflict similar damage to Ē's Susano'o cracking Liger Bomb. They target different area's of the body, and full on slams to the head/neck area are more damaging than clotheslines.
> 
> So...why are you bringing up B's Lariat.


Because it's a much stronger attack than liger-bomb, yet Sasuke's body endured it enough to survive. As for placement of the attack, if you can show me where Kishi has cared to show that placement matters in terms of a physiological sense (besides vital organ targeting) than I'll concede that point, however I have seen no indication that Kishimoto cares about that. It just simply boils down to whether the attack overrides X, where X stands for the characters overall durability, which mostly fluctuates a bit with plot.

What's more Sasuke actually took part of Ei's liager bomb without any major injury as we can see Susano'o is not in place for the initial impact of liager bomb. Of course w/o Susano'o he takes more damage, but no way do I believe it's enough where Karin can't heal him when she's healed someone cut in half before.



> She did so with the help of Katsuyu, and bisection is not the type of damage Liger Bomb would inflict.


All Katsuya did was drag Tsunade's legs to her body. Nothing more than that. Katsuya literally states she couldn't while keeping the other Gokage alive.



> Please point out where I said Ē would continuously use his v2 flciker. Once you stop and actually read (concept!), you'll realize that I never said it at all.


It's not a straw-man if it's the truth. Pretty much every single time i've ever discussed Ei with you, it boils down to him always being in R2 and always using those flickers. And every time I have to argue with you that he's rarely in R2 and rarely uses those flickers relative to the match.



> Entirely different?
> 
> Your words:
> 
> ...


Does Ei blitz in the same fashion every single time? Cause i'm pretty sure the most standard blitz from Ei is straight-forward punch. 



> Oh man, where do I fucking start? First, let's not judge somebody's tactical capabilities in battle, or level of education in general, based on their dialogue. No, actually, based on whichever parts of their foreign dialogue you can grasp. That's just ridiculous and shallow, even for you.


So let's not judge a character by how the author directly presents the character in the manga.... 

Yeah sorry, if the author is having the character talk like an uneducated moron, than I'm not going to believe his intelligence is very high. Unless it's played off as a joke, but with Ei this is not the case, he literally is set up as a dumb brute that makes poor decisions consistently in the manga and simply charged right in at his enemy before gathering any knowledge about them or their Jutsu



> Second, why in god's good name would Ē hold the title of "Kage," a political position, let alone be appointed General of the whole goddamn Allied Forces in the most important and grand war of all time if he was "an uneducated moron?"


When have we seen the Raikage elected and when have we seen their be a focus on intelligence in that election process? Kumogakure has been established as a war mongering nation that is mostly concerned with brute force. I have zero issue believing that Ei got elected despite not being that bright. As for alliance leader he literally was elected simply because his nation was the least suspect and that's it. He didn't ever show an tactical prowess and actually his dumb brute demeanor was the main mark against him, in the decision process. Even once he held the title he wasn't making any tactical decisions it was all handled by Shikaku and in-fact he had to be explained why his tactics were poor by others.



> Lastly, even if he was dumb, even your average Genin should be intelligent enough to avoid swinging into everlasting fire. If he isn't seeing red, he has no reason to harm himself.


How smart is your average genin? Kiba level? Where Kiba attacks Obito even when he just had it explained that it wasn't going to work?

And beyond that, it's not a matter of not just jumping into the fire, it's a matter of Ei has no clue how long Sasuke can hold this defense. Ei doesn't know he can outlast Sasuke. That's something you know and are magically giving Ei that intel. Like-wise we have not seen a single individual ever utilize this strategy of proactivately trying to outlast their enemy; not a single person. So why should I believe Kishi is going to write Ei doing so, rather than Ei just running in like a brute as he's always done. Ei even after his experience with Sasuke, is still charging in like a brute against Naruto and even against Madara. He charged in like a brute against Minato twice, even knowing his reputation of how fast he is and even the second time after witnessing it personally, even though he could have just walked away as Minato's forces were already retreating. 

Your self inserting your own intelligence onto the character.



> The only thing Ē needs to worry about is Amaterasu.


Not true Sasuke has various tricky tactics he can employ and there is also Kirin.



> The more the match drags on, the more Sasuke tires. In case you forgot, the Mangekyō is highly taxing, and he hadn't recovered from his battle with Itachi. He'll probably be dead before he even awakens Susano'o.


Except he has super chakra battery Karin, to full restore him.


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## Rocky (Jun 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Because it's a much stronger attack than liger-bomb, yet Sasuke's body endured it enough to survive.



Don't know when Lariat became stronger than Liger Bomb.

Sasuke's body also didn't endure it. The part of his body that Larait contacted was obliterated. 



> As for placement of the attack, if you can show me where Kishi has cared to show that placement matters in terms of a physiological sense (besides vital organ targeting) than I'll concede that point, however I have seen no indication that Kishimoto cares about that. It just simply boils down to whether the attack overrides X, where X stands for the characters overall durability, which mostly fluctuates a bit with plot.



Are you fucking serious? 

I don't _care_. It isn't debatable whether or not Liger Bomb affects a different region of the body and inflicts different damage than Lariat. It's fact, and that's what I debate. 



> All Katsuya did was drag Tsunade's legs to her body. Nothing more than that. Katsuya literally states she couldn't while keeping the other Gokage alive.



Karin provided the extra chakra needed for Tsunade to heal herself through the use of her slug. 

Bisection isn't the same kind of damage that Liger Bomb does anyway, so what's your point.



> It's not a straw-man if it's the truth. Pretty much every single time i've ever discussed Ei with you, it boils down to him always being in R2 and always using those flickers. And every time I have to argue with you that he's rarely in R2 and rarely uses those flickers relative to the match.



Oh look, ad hominem. 

I give approximately zero fucks about your opinion of me and my personal views. Your response to my _current _argument was a blatant Straw Man. I said that the 4th Raikage can use a v2 flicker to stop Sasuke from being healed again, and guess what;

He can. And you have no evidence to suggest otherwise. 



> Does Ei blitz in the same fashion every single time? Cause i'm pretty sure the most standard blitz from Ei is straight-forward punch.



Doing that would result in Raikage running straight into Amaterasu....which he is dodging....which is why he flanked in the Manga. 



> So let's not judge a character by how the author directly presents the character in the manga....



Is this supposed to be some kind of excuse that justifies judging characters based off dialogue? 



> Kumogakure has been established as a war mongering nation that is mostly concerned with brute force.



Evidence?



> And beyond that, it's not a matter of not just jumping into the fire, it's a matter of Ei has no clue how long Sasuke can hold this defense. Ei doesn't know he can outlast Sasuke. That's something you know and are magically giving Ei that intel.



Irrelevant. That doesn't change the fact that Ei can avoid everything Sauce throws at him with limited effort. Sasuke will collapse before the Raikage does, regardless of whether or not Ei knows that.



> Like-wise we have not seen a single individual ever utilize this strategy of proactivately trying to outlast their enemy; not a single person.



Don't care. 

First time for everything. If attrition is the Raikage's best bet, he will take it.



> So why should I believe Kishi is going to write Ei doing so, rather than Ei just running in like a brute as he's always done. Ei even after his experience with Sasuke, is still charging in like a brute against Naruto and even against Madara. He charged in like a brute against Minato twice, even knowing his reputation of how fast he is and even the second time after witnessing it personally, even though he could have just walked away as Minato's forces were already retreating.



If "charging in like a brute" means using Shunshin, then I agree, he will do just that. That's enough to kill Karin (who isn't hiding here), Suigetsu, and Jugo. 

..and Sasuke, because you really don't have any proof he can even use Susano'o. If he can, Raikage instead uses his flicker defensively and outlasts without much difficulty considering the toll the MS takes on the body. 




> Not true Sasuke has various tricky tactics he can employ and there is also Kirin.



Like?

Kirin is irrelevant. After using Amaterasu, Enton, and Susano'o in the Manga, he could barley stand.



> Except he has super chakra battery Karin, to full restore him.



Raikage blitzes Karin the moment she heals anybody to stop her from doing it again.

Or he blitzes her if he targets her first, whichever really.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Don't know when Lariat became stronger than Liger Bomb.
> .


Don't know when Liger-Bomb became stronger than V1 Lariat 



> Sasuke's body also didn't endure it. The part of his body that Larait contacted was obliterated.


I said he endured it enough to not die instantly and be healed.  Please tell me what is wrong with that assertion.



> I don't care. It isn't debatable whether or not Liger Bomb affects a different region of the body and inflicts different damage than Lariat. It's fact, and that's what I debate.


So basically you don't care about the manga-cannon....okay, cool, well I don't really care about the point your making unless it's within the context of the manga-cannon.



> Karin provided the extra chakra needed for Tsunade to heal herself through the use of her slug.


Please do provide me the panel where Tsunade heals herself. She didn't even have Byakugo-Seal until the very end.



> Bisection isn't the same kind of damage that Liger Bomb does anyway, so what's your point.


Your right it isn't. It's worse damage. So what's your point anyway....



> I give approximately zero fucks about your opinion of me and my personal views. Your response to my current argument was a blatant Straw Man. I said that the 4th Raikage can use a v2 flicker to stop Sasuke from being healed again, and guess what;
> 
> He can. And you have no evidence to suggest otherwise


Your saying that i'm misrepresenting your argument. But your argument literally is Ei is automatically in R2 when Sasuke gets healed and than Ei immediately R2 Flickers to stop it. That is exactly the type of argumentation, that does not account for any alternative scenario, that  I commented on. 



> Doing that would result in Raikage running straight into Amaterasu....which he is dodging....which is why he flanked in the Manga


He can flank someone with a punch 



> Is this supposed to be some kind of excuse that justifies judging characters based off dialogue?


Is this suppose to be some kind of excuse that justifies not judging a character based off how they are written by the author 



> Evidence?


Gladly:
[X]

Now please provide evidence that intelligence is a major factor in the Raikage selection process. Go on i'm waiting....



> Irrelevant. That doesn't change the fact that Ei can avoid everything Sauce throws at him with limited effort. Sasuke will collapse before the Raikage does, regardless of whether or not Ei knows that.


Sasuke blocks LOS and than hits Ei with Amaterasu or grabs him with Susano'o. It's literally that simple. He can't dodge something he can't see coming.



> First time for everything. If attrition is the Raikage's best bet, he will take it.


If your argument rest solely on a character doing something no character in the series has ever done before, it's an incredibly weak argument. 



> f "charging in like a brute" means using Shunshin, then I agree, he will do just that


No it means charging in. Shushin may or may not be utilized.



> I. That's enough to kill Karin (who isn't hiding here), Suigetsu, and Jugo.


Karin can regenerate from anything Ei can do to her. Suigetsu can't be killed by Ei due to Suika no Jutsu, best Ei could do is immobilize him with Raiton flow, but he has no sword to do so. Juugo has tanked Ei's blows before, so he can survive a few. And that's assuming Shunshin is utilized, which it probably won't be consistently.

Not going to be that easy.



> nd Sasuke, because you really don't have any proof he can even use Susano'o.


Sasuke clearly awakened Susano'o in that battle against B. When else would he have awakened it?



> If he can, Raikage instead uses his flicker defensively and outlasts without much difficulty considering the toll the MS takes on the body.


Yeah i'm toutes sure that dumb brute will utilize advanced wait and see tactics while evading every tactic (that no one has utilized in the entirety of the manga) Sasuke could possibly employ, instead of just charging in despite that being how he's handled every single other battle.



> Like?


Blocking LOS, Distracting Raikage allowing him to grab him with Susano'o, tricking Ei into Genjutsu, surrounding the area with Amaterasu/Enton preventing Ei from escaping, baiting Ei into attacking him than hitting him with Enton Kagatsuchi, taking flight on his hawk outside Ei's range of attack, etc...



> Kirin is irrelevant. After using Amaterasu, Enton, and Susano'o in the Manga, he could barley stand.


Kirin requires no chakra except for the fireballs. After using Amaterasu, Enton, Susano'o. Sasuke still had enough juice left to use Susano'o Stage 2, Raiton Ksunagi, and Susano'o Rib-Cage again. He'll have enough for some fire balls.



> Raikage blitzes Karin the moment she heals anybody to stop her from doing it again.


And Sasuke, Juugo, or Suigetsu protects Karin. Or Karin takes the blitz and regenerates herself.



> Or he blitzes her if he targets her first, whichever really.


He blitz Karin with no knowledge of her ability first. Yeah somehow I doubt that greatly.


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## trance (Jun 5, 2014)

> Sasuke blocks LOS and than hits Ei with Amaterasu or *grabs him with Susano'o*.



When he doesn't even have Susanoo at this point in time? Right.


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## Rocky (Jun 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Don't know when Liger-Bomb became stronger than V1 Lariat



I never claimed it to be. I claimed them to be _different. _



> So basically you don't care about the manga-cannon....okay, cool, well I don't really care about the point your making unless it's within the context of the manga-cannon.



That's another Straw Man, because I don't recall saying that I don't care about the Manga Canon.



> Please do provide me the panel where Tsunade heals herself. She didn't even have Byakugo-Seal until the very end.



There's little Katsuyu's all over her midsection on the page that shes healed. 



> Your right it isn't. It's worse damage. So what's your point anyway....



How, exactly, is bisection "worse" than having your head power bombed into the ground with enough force to crack Susano'o? 



> But your argument literally is Ei is automatically in R2 when Sasuke gets healed and than Ei immediately R2 Flickers to stop it. That is exactly the type of argumentation, that does not account for any alternative scenario, that  I commented on.



Yes, Ei activates v2 and speed blitzes Jugo right off of Sasuke, knocking him out with his elbow. Then Sasuke dies.



> He can flank someone with a punch



Indeed.

He can also flank somebody with a Raiton chop, which is what he did in the Manga, and it does not hurt him in any way to repeat that here.



> Is this suppose to be some kind of excuse that justifies not judging a character based off how they are written by the author



Did Kishimoto say the Raikage is an uneducated moron?

No?

Then you aren't judging based on the author's opinion, your judging based on _your_ opinion of his dialogue. 



> Gladly:
> [X]



How does this prove that the Cloud is "mostly concerned with brute force?"



> Sasuke blocks LOS and than hits Ei with Amaterasu or grabs him with Susano'o. It's literally that simple. He can't dodge something he can't see coming.



How does Sasuke block LOS?



> If your argument rest solely on a character doing something no character in the series has ever done before, it's an incredibly weak argument.



A weak argument that you can't counter. 



> Karin can regenerate from anything Ei can do to her. Suigetsu can't be killed by Ei due to Suika no Jutsu, best Ei could do is immobilize him with Raiton flow, but he has no sword to do so. Juugo has tanked Ei's blows before, so he can survive a few. And that's assuming Shunshin is utilized, which it probably won't be consistently.



Karin couldn't even regenerate from Chidori Eisō. She was basically blitzed and restrained by half-dead Danzo. Ei can tie Suigetsu up with his Raiton-infused belt or something, and then knock Jugo out like he did in canon.



> Sasuke clearly awakened Susano'o in that battle against B. When else would he have awakened it?



His battle with Raikage.



> Yeah i'm toutes sure that Raikage will utilize advanced wait and see tactics while evading every tactic (that no one has utilized in the entirety of the manga) Sasuke could possibly employ.



Glad you agree, though I wouldn't call dodging an advanced tactic. 



> Blocking LOS, Distracting Raikage allowing him to grab him with Susano'o, tricking Ei into Genjutsu, surrounding the area with Amaterasu/Enton preventing Ei from escaping, baiting Ei into attacking him than hitting him with Enton Kagatsuchi, taking flight on his hawk outside Ei's range of attack, etc...



And Raikage can deal with all of this.



> Kirin requires no chakra except for the fireballs. After using Amaterasu, Enton, Susano'o. Sasuke still had enough juice left to use Susano'o Stage 2, Raiton Ksunagi, and Susano'o Rib-Cage again. He'll have enough for some fire balls.



Kirin is classified as a Raiton, meaning it is indeed chakra infused.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2014)

I wonder who Turrin hates more - Deidara or A.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 6, 2014)

Sasuke does his quintuple spin kick into Ei's throat, and then Ei suplexes him.  With Susano, Sasuke took critical damage from that attack. Without Susano, he dies.


----------



## Csdabest (Jun 6, 2014)

Ei loses. He blizes suigetsu and suigetsu creates a water bubble around raikage head suffocating him. Raikage has no offensive abilities to handle suigetsu


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 6, 2014)

Except that raiton flow.


----------



## Bonly (Jun 6, 2014)

Csdabest are you being serious or joking around?


----------



## Turrin (Jun 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I never claimed it to be. I claimed them to be _different. _


Okay than we agree V1-Lariate is stronger.



> That's another Straw Man, because I don't recall saying that I don't care about the Manga Canon.


Okay than please provide evidence that region of the body is something that matters in the manga-cannon. That's literally all i'm asking for.



> There's little Katsuyu's all over her midsection on the page that shes healed.


[3]



> How, exactly, is bisection "worse" than having your head power bombed into the ground with enough force to crack Susano'o


I really don't care if you think Liger-Bomb is worse damage (even though I have absolutely no clue how you can justify that), the point is that any damage liger bomb could do Karin has already shown to be able to heal. That feat demonstrates she can heal bones, muscle tissue, nerves, organs, etc... everything.



> Yes,


Than please do not complain to me about straw-mans.



> Ei activates v2 and speed blitzes Jugo right off of Sasuke, knocking him out with his elbow. Then Sasuke dies.


Ei with no knowledge of Juugo's ability to heal Sasuke instantly knows to blitz him as fast as possible. 



> Indeed.
> He can also flank somebody with a Raiton chop, which is what he did in the Manga, and it does not hurt him in any way to repeat that here.


I accept your concession that he could use other things than Karate-Chop, which was the only thing in contention here to begin with.



> Did Kishimoto say the Raikage is an uneducated moron?
> 
> No?
> 
> Then you aren't judging based on the author's opinion, your judging based on your opinion of his dialogue.


So the author needs to directly come out and state something or it's not his opinion. Are you kidding me with this BS. Clearly if the author is having Ei utilize dialog that is indicative of him being an uneducated brute, that is him conveying to readers that Ei is not that bright. Like I said if it was played off as a joke or we have reason to suspect it's just a quirk of Ei's than I could see a counter argument made that Kishi is just trying to give some flare to Ei's character. However nothing contradicts the uneducated brute persona, in-fact every thing supports that.

But here i'll give you a chance, please provide some instance where Ei's been shown to use advance tactics or has ever demonstrated above average/bellow-average intelligence. Again I'll be waiting...



> How does this prove that the Cloud is "mostly concerned with brute force?"


How does it not lol. Beyond that we also have this from the Fan-book:





> How does Sasuke block LOS?


Whips up a dust cloud with any number of his jutsu. Use a large Katon. Goes underground with a snake. Etc...



> A weak argument that you can't counter.


The fact that no character has ever done that in the history of the manga and your expecting an uneducated brute who plows his way through everything to do so, is more than enough of a counter. But what is more troubling here is that it's your argument and your are unable to defend it and the burden of proof should be completely on you.



> Karin couldn't even regenerate from Chidori Eisō. She was basically blitzed and restrained by half-dead Danzo


She was exhausted already from restoring all of Sasuke's chakra and she was hit in the hear by Chidori Eisou.



> Ei can tie Suigetsu up with his Raiton-infused belt


Yeah if only Ei would actually think of that



> or something


lol your argument has become or something 



> and then knock Jugo out like he did in canon.


Which took multiple blows and the good part of an entire chapter.



> His battle with Raikage.


Yet Juugo implies that Sasuke even had Stage 2 Susano'o before that battle, and as the thing Sasuke spoke about wanting to try out  before the battle began:
[3]
[3]



> Glad you agree, though I wouldn't call dodging an advanced tactic.


I see sarcasm is lost on you...



> And Raikage can deal with all of this.


How? Oh that's right, being eternally in R2, eternally using max-speed shunshin, and having your own intelligence inserted onto him.



> Kirin is classified as a Raiton, meaning it is indeed chakra infused.


[3]



alex payne said:


> I wonder who Turrin hates more - Deidara or A.


I don't hate any character. Actually I like Ei's and Deidara's design, but Kishimoto does seem to hate Ei and Deidara giving them increasingly worse portrayal relative to his peers. Anyway what I do dislike is how overrated these two characters are, where it's gotten to the point where it's gotten worse than Itachi's overration, because at least most Itachi-fans know they are overrating him. People actually believe this shit with Deidara/Ei.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2014)

EI wins this quite easily. Liger bomb could be healed, maybe after the pain of it sasuke releases amaterasu which is trolled by Ei speed then Ei casually proceeds to lairat him the end. 
Suigetsu is trolled by lighting current, jugo gets trolled by a few punches. 
karin is fodder (At that point of the manga she was) 

Make this sasuke that fought danzo and we have a fight


----------



## Senzumaki (Jun 6, 2014)

Ay wins this.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Okay than we agree V1-Lariate is stronger.



...no, we don't.



> Okay than please provide evidence that region of the body is something that matters in the manga-cannon. That's literally all i'm asking for.



:heston

That would be called a fact. That is the case in real life, and things aren't just inherently different in Manga unless directly stated.

So if you think that is the case, provide the statement saying it doesn't matter. 



> [3]



My bad, it was Suigetsu & Karin.



> I really don't care if you think Liger-Bomb is worse damage (even though I have absolutely no clue how you can justify that), the point is that any damage liger bomb could do Karin has already shown to be able to heal. That feat demonstrates she can heal bones, muscle tissue, nerves, organs, etc... everything.



She hasn't been shown to heal a shattered upper body.

That is War Arc Karin anyway. Pre War Arc Karin can't even heal a small stab wound from Sasuke's Chidori Spear, nor could she heal the damage B's Lariat did.



> Ei with no knowledge of Juugo's ability to heal Sasuke instantly knows to blitz him as fast as possible.



ONCE HE SEES Jugo healing Sasuke, he blitzes him right off.



> I accept your concession that he could use other things than Karate-Chop, which was the only thing in contention here to begin with.



I was never debating what he can use, because I know that. I was debating what he will do, which is use a chop, because it's his best bet to kill Sasuke.



> So the author needs to directly come out and state something or it's not his opinion. Are you kidding me with this BS. Clearly if the author is having Ei utilize dialog that is indicative of him being an uneducated brute, that is him conveying to readers that Ei is not that bright.



Nope, that's _your_ opinion, not Kishimoto's, and I don't give a damn about yours. Debate the facts.

Besides, that's judgmental bullshit anyway. My cousin speaks like an uneducated hoodlum, yet in reality that's simply his choice of dialogue because he's actually pretty damn intelligent. Stop being so shallow.   



> But here i'll give you a chance, please provide some instance where Ei's been shown to use advance tactics or has ever demonstrated above average/bellow-average intelligence. Again I'll be waiting...



Deducing the mechanics of Hiraishin after seeing it once, obtaining an idea of where all Minato's Kunai lay, and coming up with a plan to catch him on the fly. 



> Beyond that we also have this from the Fan-book:



Ah. Ok, I concede that point.

Now, I'll bring forth a new one: How does this aid in proving that the Raikage is uneducated?



> Whips up a dust cloud with any number of his jutsu. Use a large Katon. Goes underground with a snake. Etc...



Go around dust cloud, go around Katon, blitz snake before it tunnels. 



> The fact that no character has ever done that in the history of the manga and your expecting an uneducated brute who plows his way through everything to do so, is more than enough of a counter.



So are you saying that because something hasn't happened yet it can't happen?



> But what is more troubling here is that it's your argument and your are unable to defend it and the burden of proof should be completely on you.



Argument from ignorance fallacy in attempt to shift the burden of proof.

Nice try.



> She was exhausted already from restoring all of Sasuke's chakra and she was hit in the hear by Chidori Eisou.



1.) How do you know that.

2.) I thought she could heal organs? 



> Yeah if only Ei would actually think of that



Not a difficult concept. 



> Which took multiple blows and the good part of an entire chapter.



It took two, when he was in the full Juin state.



> Yet Juugo implies that Sasuke even had Stage 2 Susano'o before that battle, and as the thing Sasuke spoke about wanting to try out  before the battle began:
> [3]
> [3]



Ah, so maybe he unlocked it in between those battles.



> How? Oh that's right, being eternally in R2, eternally using max-speed shunshin, and having your own intelligence inserted onto him.



More Straw Mans.



> [3]



Normal lightning doesn't look like a giant dragon nor is it guided.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ...no, we don't.


So what are you saying?



> That would be called a fact. That is the case in real life, and things aren't just inherently different in Manga unless directly stated.
> 
> So if you think that is the case, provide the statement saying it doesn't matter.


The manga doesn't abide by real life science, so that is a moot point. We've seen shinobi hit in varying areas of the body, the fact that you can't provide a single example of this mattering or being highlighted as causing different types of damage, shows you that Kishimoto doesn't give a shit about making this aspect of the manga realistic. Again, if not please show me where he indicates that he does. It's your argument and therefore you should be the one to support it.



> My bad, it was Suigetsu & Karin.


Suigetsu has healing abilities now 

It was all Karin who healed Tsunade.



> She hasn't been shown to heal a shattered upper body.


There is absolutely no reason I need to produce a scan of Karin healing that specific region of the body, when we've seen Karin demonstrate the ability to heal everything that makes up a person's body and heal a worse injury. 



> That is War Arc Karin anyway. Pre War Arc Karin can't even heal a small stab wound from Sasuke's Chidori Spear, nor could she heal the damage B's Lariat did.


It's the same exact ability and Karin was never indicated to have trained that ability. If you wish to believe otherwise, go ahead, but i'm not buying it 



> ONCE HE SEES Jugo healing Sasuke, he blitzes him right off.


I do not believe there is anyway in hell he'd realize what Juugo was doing w/ no knowledge, while facing other distractions (Karin/Suigetsu), before healing process was over. B didn't interrupt it with a blitz in time and those two are cut from the same cloth. If you want to believe differently, go head, it's not convincing me though. 



> I was never debating what he can use, because I know that. I was debating what he will do, which is use a chop, because it's his best bet to kill Sasuke.


I know what you were debating. You were debating he'd certainly use a chop, which is an argument born out of convenience. Ei used a piercing chop on Sasuke to get through Susano'o. Here w/o Susano'o I see absolutely no reason to believe that Ei would automatically go for a chop. It's far more likely he goes for a punch as that's his most goto move, even excluding that it would be totally based on chance whether he used a chop or another one of his pro-wrestling moves. So in reality it's more like 30-40% chance he used a punch, 10% chance he'd use body slam, 10% chance he'd use a back hand, etc..... Basically i'd bet on and am betting on a punch.



> Nope, that's your opinion, not Kishimoto's, and I don't give a damn about yours. Debate the facts.


No it's how Kishimoto wrote the character. Learn to deal with it. Or get another character to fanboy over.



> My cousin speaks like an uneducated hoodlum, yet in reality that's simply his choice of dialogue because he's actually pretty damn intelligent. Stop being so shallow.


Unless your cousin also acts like an uneducated hoodlum and your cousin has never given you a reason to believe he's dam intelligent, than the situations are not the same.



> Deducing the mechanics of Hiraishin after seeing it once,


You mean fodder shinobi knew of Hiraishin's mechanics based on prior knowledge and told Ei:
*Sakura's remote byakugou healing*

Also, really, your citing an instance where Minato made him look like a chump as a sign of his intelligence 



> Now, I'll bring forth a new one: How does this aid in proving that the Raikage is uneducated?


How does it prove the Raikage is intelligent? It's your own dam point that being the Raikage means someone is de-facto smart. Once again I will ask you to provide proof that intelligence is a factor in the Raikage selection process. 



> Go around dust cloud, go around Katon, blitz snake before it tunnels.


Again self inserting your own intelligence and knowledge onto Ei. Ei would need to realize that Sasuke was seeking to block LOS to launch a Jutsu and need to realize the threat of that. All before Sasuke pulled off his strat, and he'd have to realize it every single time reacting properly to every single strat Sasuke could utilized. This is too much to expect from an otherwise dimwitted character with no knowledge on Sasuke's own intelligence or move-set imo. Again if you believe differently fine, however not to make Naruto cry, but I don't BELIEVE IT!



> So are you saying that because something hasn't happened yet it can't happen?


I'm saying that if a certain tactic has never been used after 600+ chapters, hundreds of battles between hundreds of characters, it's extremely unlikely to happen, especially when it comes to someone with Ei's characterization.



> Argument from ignorance fallacy in attempt to shift the burden of proof.
> 
> Nice try


This is rich considering your the one employing an ignorance fallacy. 

You can't prove 100% Ei wouldn't take this never before used tactic, so it's reasonable for me to believe he will.

That's an ignorance fallacy. 

Me asking you to provide evidence for your own assertion, is in no way a fallacy. It's a completely reasonable request.

Maybe read up on what the fallacy is before claiming someone is employing it:




> How do you know that.


Because her ability drains chakra 



> I thought she could heal organs?


She can, but your asking someone who has been running around the summit under-fire, spamming Mind's-Eye-Kaguya, full restoring Sasuke, etc... to than heal herself immediately from one of the most serious injuries possible in the manga-cannon (death blow to the heart).



> Not a difficult concept.


Using ones belt to tie down Suigetsu with Raiton flow is a difficult concept for someone who is not that bright, especially when the bar for characters acting as intelligently as possible in the manga is low to begin with. 

Beyond that I doubt this would even work against Suigetsu here as Suigetsu has water to draw on and with water he can turn into his giant mode. Ei would need something much bigger to channel Raiton through to hold down Suigetsu in his giant mode.



> It took two, when he was in the full Juin state.


To disable him, but not kill him.



> Ah, so maybe he unlocked it in between those battles.


Yeah it way more reasonable to believe he unlocked it between those battles than in the heat of battle as he did in every other instance with MS Abilities.



> More Straw Mans.


We've covered this it's not a straw-man when it's the truth.



> Normal lightning doesn't look like a giant dragon nor is it guided.


So outright ignoring manga-cannon then, key, don't care about your point than.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So what are you saying?



That it inflicts damage to a different area of the body. There isn't any way to determine which is more powerful.



> The manga doesn't abide by real life science.



Stopped reading here.

Real world physics & laws apply unless stated otherwise.



> There is absolutely no reason I need to produce a scan of Karin healing that specific region of the body, when we've seen Karin demonstrate the ability to heal everything that makes up a person's body and heal a worse injury.



I don't think I've ever seen Karin heal brain matter. She couldn't even heal Sasuke's chest.



> It's the same exact ability and Karin was never indicated to have trained that ability. If you wish to believe otherwise, go ahead, but i'm not buying it



Her medical ninjutsu feats are far superior in the later arcs, so I'll keep believing it. If she couldn't heal off the wound from Chidori Spear, then she isn't fixing something along the lines of decapitation. 



> I do not believe there is anyway in hell he'd realize what Juugo was doing w/ no knowledge, while facing other distractions (Karin/Suigetsu), before healing process was over. B didn't interrupt it with a blitz in time and those two are cut from the same cloth. If you want to believe differently, go head, it's not convincing me though.



B isn't as fast as Ē, and I'm not sure how Suigetsu and Karin are supposed to distract him (assuming they aren't already dead) if he has his sights set on Jugo. 



> Ei used a piercing chop on Sasuke to get through Susano'o.



Stopped here. 

Do you have proof, or are you just guessing?



> No it's how Kishimoto wrote the character. Learn to deal with it. Or get another character to fanboy over.



Actually, it's your opinion on how Kishimoto wrote the character. 

I don't recall viewing an interview where the author explains Ē's character to us. I don't personally believe that _your_ analysis of E's dialogue has anything to do with Kishimoto's opinion. 



> Unless your cousin also acts like an uneducated hoodlum and your cousin has never given you a reason to believe he's dam intelligent, than the situations are not the same.



Those aren't the case with the Raikage, but we were discussing judgement based off dialogue anyway. Stay on topic.



> Also, really, your citing an instance where Minato made him look like a chump as a sign of his intelligence



He was simply surprised that Minato had marked B; E's plan didn't account for marks outside of the scattered Kunai. I think it was a good plan nonetheless. Obito didn't even figure out Minato could warp to Kunai until it was too late. 



> How does it prove the Raikage is intelligent? It's your own dam point that being the Raikage means someone is de-facto smart. Once again I will ask you to provide proof that intelligence is a factor in the Raikage selection process.



"Kage" is a political position, even if a nation is focused on its military. 



> Again self inserting your own intelligence and knowledge onto Ei. Ei would need to realize that Sasuke was seeking to block LOS to launch a Jutsu and need to realize the threat of that. All before Sasuke pulled off his strat, and he'd have to realize it every single time reacting properly to every single strat Sasuke could utilized.



....that doesn't seem to difficult to grasp, and I'm not an experienced nintaijutsu master that leads a major battle nation. 

I mean, why else would Sasuke kick up a dust cloud?



> Again if you believe differently fine, however not to make Naruto cry, but I don't BELIEVE IT!



Please never do that again.



> I'm saying that if a certain tactic has never been used after 600+ chapters, hundreds of battles between hundreds of characters, it's extremely unlikely to happen, especially when it comes to someone with Ei's characterization.



Has there been a situation where a character's best, and possibly only chance at victory was by method of attrition? 



> You can't prove 100% Ei wouldn't take this never before used tactic, so it's reasonable for me to believe he will.



...what?

Listen, my argument is that the Raikage will apply whichever method grants him the greatest chance of victory in this thread. Are you saying he isn't smart enough to simply evade Sasuke's attacks? 



> She can, but your asking someone who has been running around the summit under-fire, spamming Mind's-Eye-Kaguya, full restoring Sasuke, etc... to than heal herself immediately from one of the most serious injuries possible in the manga-cannon (death blow to the heart).



Oh so she was tired now? Was that ever mentioned?



> Using ones belt to tie down Suigetsu with Raiton flow is a difficult concept for someone who is not that bright, especially when the bar for characters acting as intelligently as possible in the manga is low to begin with.



Doesn't Raiton flow prevent Suigetsu from turning his body fully into water?



> To disable him, but not kill him.



That's all he really needs to do.



> Yeah it way more reasonable to believe he unlocked it between those battles than in the heat of battle as he did in every other instance with MS Abilities.



I didn't see Sasuke use Susano'o in his fight with B, or even mention it.

So I do indeed think he awoke it in between, assuming he was even talking about Susano'o in the scan you provided. 



> We've covered this it's not a straw-man when it's the truth.



It's not the truth, it's a Straw Man. 

You only believe it to be the truth because of ad hominem. 



> So outright ignoring manga-cannon then, key, don't care about your point than.



Sasuke guided Kirin _in the manga,_ and Kirin looked like a dragon _in the manga_, and normal lighting doesn't look like that _in the manga,_ so...


----------



## Jagger (Jun 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yeah sorry, if the author is having the character talk like an uneducated moron, than I'm not going to believe his intelligence is very high. Unless it's played off as a joke, but with Ei this is not the case, he literally is set up as a dumb brute that makes poor decisions consistently in the manga and simply charged right in at his enemy before gathering any knowledge about them or their Jutsu


A isn't dumb. Sure, he's capable of rushing into battle carelessly as seen in some situations, but he's not the kind of person that isn't capable of formulating a plan or don't kill himself in battle. If we're going to use your logic, Naruto should be the dumbest person in the entire manga, yet, we've seen him being capable of creating strategies in the amidst of the battle and pulling them out quite perfectly. His fight against Pain is a good example of that. 

However, Kishi tends to be the kind of author that makes his characters' intelligence quite inconsistent. Sasuke is praised for being a genius sometimes, but, during other scenes, he's just following Naruto or rushing into death as we saw during the Kage Summit.



> When have we seen the Raikage elected and when have we seen their be a focus on intelligence in that election process? Kumogakure has been established as a war mongering nation that is mostly concerned with brute force. I have zero issue believing that Ei got elected despite not being that bright. As for alliance leader he literally was elected simply because his nation was the least suspect and that's it. He didn't ever show an tactical prowess and actually his dumb brute demeanor was the main mark against him, in the decision process. Even once he held the title he wasn't making any tactical decisions it was all handled by Shikaku and in-fact he had to be explained why his tactics were poor by others.


Ok, you're wrong.

In order to bring a country to a high point regarding military, population, economics, etc. you need to have a smart leader. That's the truth. The only example we've seen of A not being a level-headed leader happened when his brother was, apparently, captured by Akatsuki. There's a reasonable justification for his anger, sure, a leader shouldn't act like a complete dick towards other leaders during an important meeting, but he calmed down after hearing his brother was killed.

Is A a person with a short temperament? Indeed he is. An uneducated moron? That's just dumb to believe. Kurogakure was said to be one of the greatest villages after Konoha and, at one point, it was the best after Konoha was invaded (I think it was said so in one of the DB). You can't raise a country to be like that if you're an _"uneducated moron"._ The only thing you could get from it is just your own country destroying itself (for example, see Venezuela).


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 7, 2014)

A takes this, the best offense Sasuke has are Raiton techniques that aren't all that effective on A. He's also faster than them


----------



## Turrin (Jun 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Real world physics & laws apply unless stated otherwise.


How about shown other wise - consistently



> I don't think I've ever seen Karin heal brain matter. She couldn't even heal Sasuke's chest.


And I do since she has literally healed everything that makes up the human-body.



> Her medical ninjutsu feats are far superior in the later arcs, so I'll keep believing it. If she couldn't heal off the wound from Chidori Spear, then she isn't fixing something along the lines of decapitation.


Than agree to disagree



> B isn't as fast as Ē,


V1 B only falls behind Ei in speed when it comes to Ei's max-speed. So once again we're back to the belief that Ei is eternally in R2 and always uses his max-speed shunshin.



> Stopped here.
> 
> Do you have proof, or are you just guessing?


I would really hope Ei was selecting moves that would specifically give him the best chance to break through Susano'o's defense - than again he is really dumb, so perhaps I presumed to much as far as his intelligence goes?



> Actually, it's your opinion on how Kishimoto wrote the character.
> 
> I don't recall viewing an interview where the author explains Ē's character to us. I don't personally believe that your analysis of E's dialogue has anything to do with Kishimoto's opinio


Whatever let's you sleep at night bruv. But don't expect me to believe Ei is intelligent.



> Those aren't the case with the Raikage,


Than once again please produce counter points...i'm waiting



> ut we were discussing judgement based off dialogue anyway. Stay on topic.


lol... we are dicussing Ei's intelligence in general. My point always was that Kishi has him talk like an uneducated brute and his actions coincide with that, with the author offering nothing that contradicts this. You clearly don't want to address the whole point, because you have no counter argument 



> He was simply surprised that Minato had marked B; E's plan didn't account for marks outside of the scattered Kunai. I think it was a good plan nonetheless.


Yup good plans totally fail horribly. Hell the plan doesn't even make sense. Ei was trying to keep track of all Minato's markers and attack Minato when he appeared, which at best would have resulted in Minato just teleporting away again, at worse it would result in what we had happen in the manga where Ei could not keep track of all the markers and was completely out played. 

The best strategy there would have been to simply let his enemy retreat. But no Ei had to charge out like a brute and attack regardless. Anyone being truthful knows this is an example of Ei being stupid and failing to notice the bigger picture.



> Obito didn't even figure out Minato could warp to Kunai until it was too late.


Obito knew Minato could teleport to Kunai lol. He just thought he could warp Minato before than, he was wrong.



> "Kage" is a political position, even if a nation is focused on its military.


Literally all Kishimoto says about the election process of a Kage:

"The title of "Kage" is usually inherited by being nominated by the previous generation, however there are also villages that use a parliamentary system with the village's potentates."

Nowhere is intelligence mentioned. Being in a political position doesn't mean your intelligent, it means you possessed qualities the public desired enough for you to be elected. These qualities do not necessarily include intelligence and you have offered zero evidence that they do.



> ...that doesn't seem to difficult to grasp, and I'm not an experienced nintaijutsu master that leads a major battle nation.


Your also not an uneducated brute, and you have knowledge said uneducated brute does not have.



> I mean, why else would Sasuke kick up a dust cloud?


As a smoke screen to flee or create distance between him and his enemy. Generate time to set up a defense. Buy time to examine the enemy and think up counters for their Jutsu. Buy time to summon allies (or for allies to arrive). Buy time to recover. In all cases Ei would be well advised to chase him down to prevent these possibilities, rather than avoiding the smoke-screen . 

And this is just talking about when the creation of a smoke-screen looks intentional. Sasuke could easily stage it so it does not look intentional, and therefore Ei doesn't expect anything.

No to mention no on in the history of the manga has seen a smoke screen and just run the fuck away. Even Ninja as intelligent as Kakashi don't just turn tail and run from smoke-screens.



> Has there been a situation where a character's best, and possibly only chance at victory was by method of attrition?


It's not Ei's only chance at victory. It just might work out better for him because he wouldn't get injured by Enton. Literally every match in the manga I can think of strategies for both parties that might work out better for them.



> Listen, my argument is that the Raikage will apply whichever method grants him the greatest chance of victory in this thread. Are you saying he isn't smart enough to simply evade Sasuke's attacks?


I'm saying that it's not IC for anyone to adopt this strategy, regardless of intelligence. Than I'm saying that this is especially the case for Ei, given his characterization. Than I'm saying even if Ei did adopt that strategy he isn't likely to be intelligent enough to outthink Sasuke at every turn and managed to evade all of Sasuke's attacks/traps/strategies. 

So there are actually three layers to the reason why I do not think this at all likely.



> Oh so she was tired now? Was that ever mentioned?


Here's what you need to do. Go back and re-read the Kages-Arc. Than use common sense.

Than you will realize that Karin has all the justification in the world for not being able to heal a wound to the heart, considering she'd been spamming Mind's-Eye-Kagura and already used her healing ability twice previously. You will also note that during the Killer-B fight Juugo told Karin to not heal Sasuke a second time, because she already healed him once. Indicating that healing twice is very taxing (she did just that in the Kages arc before she was stabbed):

You will also notice that she healed Sasuke from a stab wound before. So her ability clearly does heal that level of wound even back then. And before you give me the unsubstantiated argument about body placement, she also healed Sasuke after Killer-B jammed swords into all different areas of Sasuke's body:
_couldn't block in time_



> Doesn't Raiton flow prevent Suigetsu from turning his body fully into water?


No because he clearly was water with Darui stabbed his sword into him, otherwise he'd be dead



> That's all he really needs to do.


Which is exactly what Ei will think, than Juugo will heal Sasuke, because Juugo could still use CS2 flesh melding/absorption even after Ei's blows.



> I didn't see Sasuke use Susano'o in his fight with B, or even mention it.


Good for you... I disagree tho. So ether prove it happened inbetween or accept the difference in opinion and move on.



> So I do indeed think he awoke it in between, assuming he was even talking about Susano'o in the scan you provided.


It's so obvious that he was that you'd be ridiculous to assert otherwise. 



> It's not the truth






> Sasuke guided Kirin in the manga, and Kirin looked like a dragon in the manga, and normal lighting doesn't look like that in the manga, so...



C-net - Zetsu: Yeah, but what on earth could he be... // --HE'S NOT USING HIS OWN CHAKRA ENERGY...-- / --HE'S USING THE ENERGY OF THE VAST ATMOSPHERE ITSELF-- 

Tora-chan Zetsu2: Instead of his own chakra energy
he wants to use the huge energy coming from the atmosphere...

Hishou: Zetsu-R: INSTEAD OF USING HIS OWN CHAKRA FOR ENERGY, 
HE'S GOING TO CHANNEL AN ENORMOUS SURGE FROM THE SKY,

*"INSTEAD OF USING HIS OWN CHAKRA FOR ENERGY, "
*

Accept Cannon! Kirin doesn't take much chakra to utilize.



Jagger said:


> A isn't dumb. Sure, he's capable of rushing into battle carelessly as seen in some situations, but he's not the kind of person that isn't capable of formulating a plan or don't kill himself in battle. If we're going to use your logic, Naruto should be the dumbest person in the entire manga, yet, we've seen him being capable of creating strategies in the amidst of the battle and pulling them out quite perfectly. His fight against Pain is a good example of that.


The difference between Naruto and Ei, is that Naruto's stupidity is played off as comic relief and he is shown being battle-smart when it counts. Ei's stupidity is not played off as a comic relief, his actions reflect his stupidity, and he has zero redeeming instance of impressive battle-smarts.



> However, Kishi tends to be the kind of author that makes his characters' intelligence quite inconsistent. Sasuke is praised for being a genius sometimes, but, during other scenes, he's just following Naruto or rushing into death as we saw during the Kage Summit.


Yet he is consistent with Ei being not the brightest of the bunch.



> In order to bring a country to a high point regarding military, population, economics, etc. you need to have a smart leader. That's the truth


Or you just have smart advisors 



> The only example we've seen of A not being a level-headed leader happened when his brother was, apparently, captured by Akatsuki.


So he was a level headed leader when he charged Minato the second time, instead of just falling back? He was a level headed leader when Shikaku and the others had to tell him to sit down and stfu when he had his little freak out about Gin/Kin. He was a level headed leader when he was preparing to murder Naruto? 

Really Jagger, Really......



> Is A a person with a short temperament? Indeed he is. An uneducated moron? That's just dumb to believe. Kurogakure was said to be one of the greatest villages after Konoha and, at one point, it was the best after Konoha was invaded (I think it was said so in one of the DB). You can't raise a country to be like that if you're an "uneducated moron". The only thing you could get from it is just your own country destroying itself (for example, see Venezuela).


Yes you can when you have smart people assisting you


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jun 7, 2014)

To me his worse display of low intelligence was keeping away two of the strongest shinobi in the alliance away from the battlefield it could've costed them the entire war.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 7, 2014)

A initiate his flicker and start jumping to all the taka members launching elbows, punches, chops and lariats during his travel.

This fight is blitz A mid diff at best because of sasuke and jugo's potential resilience.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 7, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> To me his worse display of low intelligence was keeping away two of the strongest shinobi in the alliance away from the battlefield it could've costed them the entire war.


Yeah that was legit one of the dumbest things any character in this manga has done and people are arguing this guy is smart.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 7, 2014)

manga knowledge = knowledge they had of each other at the time?

Pretty much the same thing happens as in the manga except no susanoo.  Ei fights all three of them, puts down juugo first, gets into a chidori clash and liger bombs sasuke which kills him instantly.  If Sasuke somehow survives, Ei knows V1 = chidori to the chest.  He goes V2 shunshins out of LoS and blitzes sasuke from behind.  Sasuke will instantly die from Ei's RnY chop or *this punch to his face. *

Suigetsu isn't even a threat to Ei, as his strongest attack (beheader swing) gets repelled just like sasuke's Raiton sword.  Both he and karin get dispatched after taking out the big player.



Turrin said:


> Yeah that was legit one of the dumbest things any character in this manga has done and people are arguing this guy is smart.


actually, that was originally *Gaara's idea*, you know the same guy who the manga calls a genius.  

Then again, it's not surprising you'd say that when in this very thread you've actually asserted that there's virtually no difference between hittting a person in the head vs any other body part.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> How about shown other wise - consistently



Can you give me multiple chapter & page numbers that demonstrate how attacking different parts of the body is irrelevant in the type of injury sustained?



> And I do since she has literally healed everything that makes up the human-body.



Scan of her healing a brain injury?



> V1 B only falls behind Ei in speed when it comes to Ei's max-speed.



Evidence?

Though it doesn't really matter, because Ei can easily power up to max power if he so desires.



> I would really hope Ei was selecting moves that would specifically give him the best chance to break through Susano'o's defense.



So you're just guessing. 



> Whatever let's you sleep at night bruv. But don't expect me to believe Ei is intelligent.



"Whatever lets you sleep at night." Ah, classic. 

I'll take that as a concession. 



> Than once again please produce counter points...i'm waiting



You have to produce the actual point first. The whole "uneducated moron" thing came from your personal (and bias) analysis of the character's _dialogue. _



> and his actions coincide with that.



The only dumb thing I remember the Raikage doing is swinging into Enton-Coated Susano'o, which I attributed to his state of mind at the time.



> Yup good plans totally fail horribly. Hell the plan doesn't even make sense. Ei was trying to keep track of all Minato's markers and attack Minato when he appeared, which at best would have resulted in Minato just teleporting away again.



Only if Minato had the reflexes to do so, and Ei evidently didn't think he did.



> The best strategy there would have been to simply let his enemy retreat. But no Ei had to charge out like a brute and attack regardless.



I'm not sure how engaging an enemy in close quarters combat is "charging in like a brute."

Tsunade did the same thing against Kabuto, and later Madara. Is she an uneducated meat head?



> Obito knew Minato could teleport to Kunai lol. He just thought he could warp Minato before than, he was wrong.



He seemed genuinely surprised when Minato teleported to the Kunai he threw.



> Nowhere is intelligence mentioned. Being in a political position doesn't mean your intelligent, it means you possessed qualities the public desired enough for you to be elected. These qualities do not necessarily include intelligence and you have offered zero evidence that they do


.

I'm not talking about the damn election process. Handling diplomatic affairs & negotiations, the economy, domestic issues, and simply running an entire country in general requires an above average degree of intelligence. _Especially_ one as successful as the Cloud.



> Your also not an uneducated brute, and you have knowledge said uneducated brute does not have.



I guarantee you I know less about combat tactics than any ninja worth his salt, let alone some leader of a war-focused nation.



> As a smoke screen to flee or create distance between him and his enemy. Generate time to set up a defense. Buy time to examine the enemy and think up counters for their Jutsu. Buy time to summon allies (or for allies to arrive). Buy time to recover. In all cases Ei would be well advised to chase him down to prevent these possibilities, rather than avoiding the smoke-screen .



I don't think I said that Ei would run away from the smokescreen. I said he would go around it, to Sasuke's flank, putting himself in an advantageous position. 



> It's not Ei's only chance at victory. It just might work out better for him because he wouldn't get injured by Enton. Literally every match in the manga I can think of strategies for both parties that might work out better for them.



The alternative is attacking into Fire Susano'o (if Sasuke has it), which is detrimental.  All non-detrimental strategies would be taken before those that are.

That said, Ei doesn't have to outlast Sasuke if he doesn't have Susano'o.



> I'm saying that it's not IC for anyone to adopt this strategy, regardless of intelligence.



Using an attrition strategy is well within the characterization of any battle-trained fighter.

I'd bet you that even some non-trained humans would attempt to outlast an opponent that they can't harm by through other means. 



> Than I'm saying even if Ei did adopt that strategy he isn't likely to be intelligent enough to outthink Sasuke at every turn and managed to evade all of Sasuke's attacks/traps/strategies.



There isn't much thinking involved in evading Amaterasu for a few minutes while Sasuke kills his already injured self from MS abuse.

It's also worth noting that Sasuke wasn't acting very intelligently at this time in the Manga. Entering a sword fight with Killer B was funny, but not as funny as barging into an international meeting of the strongest ninjas at the time.



> You will also note that during the Killer-B fight Juugo told Karin to not heal Sasuke a second time, because she already healed him once. Indicating that healing twice is very taxing.



This is all I need.

So she has two heals *max* and then she's done?



> No because he clearly was water with Darui stabbed his sword into him, otherwise he'd be dead



So how was the sword pinning him to the wall if he was water?



> Which is exactly what Ei will think, than Juugo will heal Sasuke, because Juugo could still use CS2 flesh melding/absorption even after Ei's blows.



When he woke up a few chapters later. Jugo won't be healing anything when he's knocked out.



> Good for you... I disagree tho. So ether prove it happened inbetween or accept the difference in opinion and move on.



It technically cannot be proven exactly _when_ he awoke it.

So tell me, why are you acting as if he had Susano'o in this thread?



> It's so obvious that he was that you'd be ridiculous to assert otherwise.



If it was obvious, I wouldn't be arguing it.


Debate tip:

Keep your past experiences with posters out of arguments. Maybe that why you'll actually manage to avoid Straw Mans & Ad hominem. 



> Accept Cannon! Kirin doesn't take much chakra to utilize.



The true power comes from natural lighting yes, but we don't know how much chakra it takes to shape & guide Kirin.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Can you give me multiple chapter & page numbers that demonstrate how attacking different parts of the body is irrelevant in the type of injury sustained?


It's too common to even warrant wasting time giving precise examples. Just re-read any 2 fights over again, and most likely one of them will illustrate this, that's how common it is. 



> Scan of her healing a brain injury?


What aspect of the brain would she be unable to heal? 



> Evidence?


*despite being right next to the guy?
*
*despite being right next to the guy?
*
*despite being right next to the guy?
*

And that's Base-B.



> Though it doesn't really matter, because Ei can easily power up to max power if he so desires.


And back to eternal R2/Max-Speed Ei.



> So you're just guessing.


So your arguing Ei's a complete idiot at the same time arguing his intelligence. Kay, gotcha.



> I'll take that as a concession.


Whatever let's -- well you know the rest.



> You have to produce the actual point first..


Clearly if the author is having Ei utilize dialog that is indicative of him being an uneducated brute, that is him conveying to readers that Ei is not that bright. Like I said if it was played off as a joke or we have reason to suspect it's just a quirk of Ei's than I could see a counter argument made that Kishi is just trying to give some flare to Ei's character. However nothing contradicts the uneducated brute persona, in-fact all of Ei's actions support this.



> The whole "uneducated moron" thing came from your personal (and bias) analysis of the character's dialogue


Ad Hominem. Appeal to motive. 



> The only dumb thing I remember the Raikage doing is swinging into Enton-Coated Susano'o, which I attributed to his state of mind at the time.


Naruto don't listen to me hulk smash. Gin & Kin oh noes better hulk-smash. Konoha forces retreating, nah better hulk smash.. Giant Buddha..hulk smash. Uchiha Madara hulk smash. Than there is this:





> Only if Minato had the reflexes to do so, and Ei evidently didn't think he did.


Which is so dumb, because Minato literally had the reflexes to react to Ei's max-speed and teleport away twice before.



> I'm not sure how engaging an enemy in close quarters combat is "charging in like a brute."


Black Flames that can damage me...herp da derp better punch through them
Ninja famous for his speed as Yellow Flash herp da derp better charge him with straight-forward punch
Yellow Flashed dodged my first punch, instead of just taking the win, her da derp let's charge him again
No one agrees with me herp da derp better charge Naruto and try to kill him

There is no way you don't see this.



> sunade did the same thing against Kabuto, and later Madara. Is she an uneducated meat head?


Tsunade craftily tried to trick Orochimaru into falling for her lethal medical ninjutsu. She did not charge in first. Against Madara Tsunade hung back and healed for a large part of that battle, before charging in. Not to mention she only allowed herself to fight up close due to having the strategy of healing herself with Byakugo/Gensis in mind. The situations are not comparable. What's more while many characters have made bone headed moves in the past, they have many other redeeming moments of intelligence, Ei has none and is specifically characterized as not very bright.



> He seemed genuinely surprised when Minato teleported to the Kunai he threw.


He was surprised Minato was faster than him and he was pretty much forced into a speed contest by circumstance. Again in comparable situations.



> I'm not talking about the damn election process. Handling diplomatic affairs & negotiations, the economy, domestic issues, and simply running an entire country in general requires an above average degree of intelligence. Especially one as successful as the Cloud.


Not when you have smart advisors to do that shit for you.



> I guarantee you I know less about combat tactics than any ninja worth his salt, let alone some leader of a war-focused nation.


Than your opinion on what tactics Ei will use shouldn't be taken seriously.



> I don't think I said that Ei would run away from the smokescreen. I said he would go around it, to Sasuke's flank, putting himself in an advantageous position.


If Sasuke is in the smokescreen flanking him would still mean entering the smoke screen. You can't have it both ways. There are only two options. Ether he evades it for it's duration or he enters/stays in it.

I also like how Ei has the ability to immediately know where Sasuke is in the smoke screen to pull off a seamlessly flanking 



> The alternative is attacking into Fire Susano'o (if Sasuke has it), which is detrimental. All non-detrimental strategies would be taken before those that are.


Ei doesn't know not attacking Susano'o is not detrimental, nor can one even assert it isn't not detrimental. Ei punching Susano'o hurts Ei by him lighting himself on fire, but Ei not punching Susano'o can also hurt Ei by giving Sasuke time to strategize, cast jutsu, etc.... Ether path has it's risks. You can say one path is less risky, because you have knowledge on Sasuke's capabilities and because you believe Ei can handle these capabilities. Ei on the other hand does not have knowledge of Sasuke's capabilities and can not make as informed of a judgment call. 



> Using an attrition strategy is well within the characterization of any battle-trained fighter.
> 
> I'd bet you that even some non-trained humans would attempt to outlast an opponent that they can't harm by through other means.


What you don't get is that fictional characters do not always act through the lens of common sense. But i'm more than happy to be proven wrong, just give me one example from the manga. 



> There isn't much thinking involved in evading Amaterasu for a few minutes while Sasuke kills his already injured self from MS abuse.


Once again knowledge you have, but Ei doesn't. 



> It's also worth noting that Sasuke wasn't acting very intelligently at this time in the Manga. Entering a sword fight with Killer B was funny, but not as funny as barging into an international meeting of the strongest ninjas at the time.


Yet I can cite well thought out strategies on Sasuke's part. Let's see you do the same for Ei, go on i'm waiting....



> So she has two heals max and then she's done?


Two heals, plus usage of other abilities and general physical exertion. 



> So how was the sword pinning him to the wall if he was water?


Because it was binding him, not causing him to unliquify. Hell you can really easily see he's still liquid if you bother to look at the pages:
*despite being right next to the guy?
*
*despite being right next to the guy?
*



> When he woke up a few chapters later. Jugo won't be healing anything when he's knocked out.


There isn't even any evidence that he was unconscious in the first place. All we know was he was immobile. And considering the speed of the battle 1 chapter is not a-lot of time any-way.



> It technically cannot be proven exactly when he awoke it.
> 
> So tell me, why are you acting as if he had Susano'o in this thread?


Because it's my opinion that he awoke it in the Killer-B fight, and that he'd awaken it in this fight given the right emotional stimulus, as that's how Sasuke's MS abilities were consistently shown to evolve.

Again if you want to believe otherwise, that's up to you.



> If it was obvious, I wouldn't be arguing it.


Don't ask me to mind read, why you are arguing something obvious.



> Keep your past experiences with posters out of arguments. Maybe that why you'll actually manage to avoid Straw Mans & Ad hominem.


Again nether of those logical fallacies apply when it's the truth.



> The true power comes from natural lighting yes, but we don't know how much chakra it takes to shape & guide Kirin.


Itachi directly states that Sasuke is almost out of chakra before he uses Kirin. So we know it takes very little.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It's too common to even warrant wasting time giving precise examples. Just re-read any 2 fights over again, and most likely one of them will illustrate this, that's how common it is.



I'm not getting your evidence for you. 



> What aspect of the brain would she be unable to heal?



The brain itself.



> [2]
> [2]
> [2]
> 
> And that's Base-B.



And which one of these is more impressive than intercepting KCM Naruto's flicker multiple times?



> And back to eternal R2/Max-Speed Ei.



Straw Man.

I said he activates it and uses it if he pleases. Not that he is eternally in it. 



> So your arguing Ei's a complete idiot at the same time arguing his intelligence. Kay, gotcha.



Until you prove to me that "a chop" is Ei's best bet to break Susano'o, you were guessing. 

Though say I agree anyway. A chop to the neck is also Ei's best bet to kill Sasuke, so why wouldn't he apply the same logic in this thread?



> Clearly if the author is having Ei utilize dialog *that is indicative of him being an uneducated brute*, that is him conveying to readers that Ei is not that bright.



One's education level cannot be judged by dialogue.

You see the bolded? That is your opinion, which is something I don't care about.



> Ad Hominem. Appeal to motive


. 

You insulted the Raikage when you called him a moron, leading me to believe bias was present. 

However, my point still stands if you remove the "(and biased)" part from it.



> Naruto don't listen to me hulk smash. Gin & Kin oh noes better hulk-smash. Konoha forces retreating, nah better hulk smash.. Giant Buddha..hulk smash. Uchiha Madara hulk smash.



This is kind of pathetic. 

Like I said in the past, engaging an enemy in close quarters combat is not uneducated.



> Which is so dumb, because Minato literally had the reflexes to react to Ei's max-speed and teleport away.



Barley. He probably though he could get him if he had another go at it and the element of surprise.

Honestly, it was the Raikage's best option. How else was he going to catch Minato?



> Black Flames that can damage me...herp da derp better punch through them
> Ninja famous for his speed as Yellow Flash herp da derp better charge him with straight-forward punch
> Yellow Flashed dodged my first punch, instead of just taking the win, her da derp let's charge him again
> No one agrees with me herp da derp better charge Naruto and try to kill him




I already admitted that Ei was far too rash at the Kage Summit
Ei charged Minato from a few meters out, and before him, nobody had reacted to Ei's flicker.It was a pretty solid bet, but Minato happened to be a hair faster. Was Obito "dumb" for charging in against Minato and getting bested?
Who the fuck surrenders if the opponent avoids one of their attacks?
Actually, the vast majority of the Shinobi alliance agreed with the Raikage. That's why Naruto was originally kept out of the war. 



> Tsunade craftily tried to trick Orochimaru into falling for her lethal medical ninjutsu. She did not charge in first. Against Madara Tsunade hung back and healed for a large part of that battle, before charging in. Not to mention she only allowed herself to fight up close due to having the strategy of healing herself with Byakugo/Gensis in mind. The situations are not comparable. What's more while many characters have made bone headed moves in the past, they have many other redeeming moments of intelligence, Ei has none and is specifically characterized as not very bright.



There was nothing crafty about Tsunade's plan. Orochimaru was desperate, and Tsunade could give him what he desired. Did you really think Orochimaru would outright refuse?

Against Madara, she hung back and healed at first yes, but that doesn't have anything to do with what I said. _The moment she engaged him in combat_, she rushed in and was bested.



> Not when you have smart advisors to do that shit for you.



Advisers don't do the leader's work for him. Why are you assuming this? Then there would be no point to a leader.

Our president has advisers. Do they do his work for him?  



> Than your opinion on what tactics Ei will use shouldn't be taken seriously.



And yours should?



> If Sasuke is in the smokescreen flanking him would still mean entering the smoke screen.



If Sasuke creates the smoke cloud around _himself_, the Raikage can just wait for the attack to emerge from the dust and then avoid it...



> Ei doesn't know not attacking Susano'o is not detrimental, nor can one even assert it isn't not detrimental. Ei punching Susano'o hurts Ei by him lighting himself on fire, but Ei not punching Susano'o can also hurt Ei by giving Sasuke time to strategize, cast jutsu, etc.... Ether path has it's risks.





So basically, Ei is going to allow himself to be hit in fear of Sasuke crafting up a plan that...allows him to hit Ei? 

Let me try and put this in simple terms; The Raikage is not going to act in a way that is _guaranteed_ to be detrimental just because there are other actions that _could_ be detrimental.



> What you don't get is that fictional characters do not always act through the lens of common sense.



What the fuck is this?

I'm not just going to assume that characters are not applying common sense to their actions.



> Yet I can cite well thought out strategies on Sasuke's part. Let's see you do the same for Ei, go on i'm waiting....



What are Sasuke's "well thought out strategies" in between Itachi's death and his talk with the Edo Hokage?



> Two heals, plus usage of other abilities and general physical exertion.



I'd say that depends on the damage she heals.



> Because it was binding him, not causing him to unliquify. Hell you can really easily see he's still liquid if you bother to look at the pages:
> [2]
> [2]



How was the sword binding him? If he was liquid, couldn't he just slip through it?



> There isn't even any evidence that he was unconscious in the first place. All we know was he was immobile. And considering the speed of the battle 1 chapter is not a-lot of time any-way.



Unconscious, immobile, I don't really care. Either way, he isn't healing Sasuke.



> Because it's my opinion that he awoke it in the Killer-B fight, and that he'd awaken it in this fight given the right emotional stimulus, as that's how Sasuke's MS abilities were consistently shown to evolve.



He awakened his first eye power, Amaterasu, at the climax of the Killer B fight. Are you saying he awakened all three at the same time?



> Again nether of those logical fallacies apply when it's the truth.



Forreal dog? ck

If I tell my son to stop smoking because it will hurt him in the future, and he says "but you smoked!", _and that is true_, is he really not committing an Ad Hominem logical fallacy?


----------



## LeBoyka (Jun 8, 2014)

*Why are people arguing about Ei's intelligence in a match-up where his intelligence is really a non-factor?* Taka is not reacting to Ei's blitz. They will all get one-shotted easily. Sasuke will die without Susanoo, Karin is uselss, Jugo already lost to Ei in cannon, Suigetsu is weak against lightning style and cannot hurt Ei; this is a total ass rape. No intelligence or fancy tactics needed. Sometimes brute speed and strength wins fights - this is clearly one of those fights. God, ppl be stupid.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm not getting your evidence for you.


I'm not asking you to get anything. I'm saying the evidence there and if you want to see go nuts.



> The brain itself.


Once again, why would she be unable to heal the brain?



> And which one of these is more impressive than intercepting KCM Naruto's flicker multiple times?


There not more impressive, they are equally impressive as B kept up with the same Ei that was keeping pace with KCM-Naruto.



> I said he activates it and uses it if he pleases. Not that he is eternally in it.


It's the same style of argument, where every time you get put into a corner it's assumed Ei automatically seamlessly enters R2 and max/speed attacks. You leave no option open for other outcomes.



> Though say I agree anyway. A chop to the neck is also Ei's best bet to kill Sasuke, so why wouldn't he apply the same logic in this thread?


Because he doesn't need to get through a defense here and doesn't know he needs a chop to end Sasuke. Again you are inserting your own knowledge and strategy onto Ei.



> One's education level cannot be judged by dialogue.
> 
> You see the bolded? That is your opinion, which is something I don't care about.


Straw-man. Attacking an out-of-context part of a whole, as if it were the point.



> You insulted the Raikage when you called him a moron, leading me to believe bias was present.
> 
> However, my point still stands if you remove the "(and biased)" part from it.


My objective isn't to insult a fictional character lol. My objective is to evaluate the character based on how he's presented. He's presented as acting/talking/thinking in a consistently moronic fashion.



> Like I said in the past, engaging an enemy in close quarters combat is not uneducated.


Straw-man. Your attacking engaging in CQC, while ignoring the context of those engagements, which is the crux of my point.



> Ei charged Minato from a few meters out, and before him, nobody had reacted to Ei's flicker.It was a pretty solid bet, but Minato happened to be a hair faster. Was Obito "dumb" for charging in against Minato and getting bested?


Shifting the Blame. Blaming Obito in-order to dodge around the point. 

False Equivalency. Obito not only engaged Minato multiple times before the charge, but he was forced into the charged by circumstance

Straw man. Ignoring the context of whole statement and focusing in on one aspect - the first charge alone



> Who the fuck surrenders if the opponent avoids one of their attacks?


Ei didn't need to surrender, it was the Konoha forces that were falling back. Ei's troops already won. Now Ei had two choices take the tactical win or endanger his allies further by pressing the battle for no other reason than seeing red, or he could have taken the win and minimized potential damage. He choose the later, failed, and nearly got his brother killed.



> Actually, the vast majority of the Shinobi alliance agreed with the Raikage. That's why Naruto was originally kept out of the war.


Straw-man.  Ignoring the context of whole statement and focusing in on one aspect - Ei keeping Naruto away from the battlefield. 

Ignoring Ei's attempt to beat Naruto into submission or Ei attempting to kill Naruto. Directly defying the Hokage. Ignoring the political ramification of this in a war where a united front is key. Etc...



> There was nothing crafty about Tsunade's plan. Orochimaru was desperate, and Tsunade could give him what he desired. Did you really think Orochimaru would outright refuse?


Orochimaru not being in a position to refuse makes it crafty. as does hiding an attack in the guise of medical ninjutsu. 

Though this is shifting the blame anyway.



> Against Madara, she hung back and healed at first yes, but that doesn't have anything to do with what I said. The moment she engaged him in combat, she rushed in and was bested.


False Equivalency. Tsunade had a large period of time to observe Madara and his Jutsu and had the support of 4 other Kages before charing in. Ei just charged right in against Minato.



> Advisers don't do the leader's work for him. Why are you assuming this? Then there would be no point to a leader.
> 
> Our president has advisers. Do they do his work for him?


False Equivalency. The President is not the same role as Kage. Kage has 2 jobs run the village and physical protect it. President doesn't have to be a badass able to solo enemies of the US, Kage has to be that badass. So Kage could be elect under the idea that he's extremely good at the latter (protecting the village), while very poor at the former, but has skilled assistants that can do the former well. It also depends on the values of those who are electing the Kage.



> And yours should?


I'm not the one saying, "I guarantee you I know less about combat tactics than any ninja worth his salt, let alone some leader of a war-focused nation"

I believe I know more about tactics then Ei. Because I'm A) Much smarter than Ei has been presented to be in the story & B) Have access to a 600+ chapter information file, Data-books, Fan-books, etc... that grants me a wealth of knowledge, especially on an MC like Sasuke, that Ei does not have.



> If Sasuke creates the smoke cloud around himself, the Raikage can just wait for the attack to emerge from the dust and then avoid it...


So he's staying out of the smoke cloud then 

Again only two options here.



> Let me try and put this in simple terms; The Raikage is not going to act in a way that is guaranteed to be detrimental just because there are other actions that could be detrimental.


Let me try and put this in simple terms: The Raikage may act in a way that is guaranteed to be detrimental to avoid acting in a way that may be more detrimental. 



> m not just going to assume that characters are not applying common sense to their actions.


Than maybe this manga isn't for you.



> What are Sasuke's "well thought out strategies" in between Itachi's death and his talk with the Edo Hokage?


Re-read the Danzo fight for starters.



> I'd say that depends on the damage she heals.


Maybe, but how much does it vary? She full restored Sasuke before his fight with Danzo. Than she healed Sasuke from a mortal stab wound after that. This on-top of the other stuff she did. 

Now please prove to me she had enough chakra left where she should be able to heal yet another mortal wound dealt to herself.



> How was the sword binding him? If he was liquid, couldn't he just slip through it?


Because Kishi said that's how Suika no Jutsu interacts with Raiton 

Again a-lot of stuff don't make logical sense in the manga, but it's a manga about mystical ninja and we have to accept it. We can clearly see Suigetsu is water, so why are you even still arguing this, beyond a refusal to admit that you were wrong.



> Unconscious, immobile, I don't really care. Either way, he isn't healing Sasuke.


Immobile he can still heal Sasuke, like he was still able to move an arm to absorb fodder shinobi. Sauske would just need to come to him.



> He awakened his first eye power, Amaterasu, at the climax of the Killer B fight. Are you saying he awakened all three at the same time?


I'm saying he awakened the other two around the same time. Whether it was at the exact moment he awakened Amaterasu or at another time.



> If I tell my son to stop smoking because it will hurt him in the future, and he says "but you smoked!", and that is true, is he really not committing an Ad Hominem logical fallacy?


Falce Equivalency. It's more accurately if you say smoking isn't bad for, than your son says you said smoking isn't bad for you, and you say no I didn't, stop attacking my character.


----------



## Ghost (Jun 8, 2014)

Raikage choke slams.


----------



## Jagger (Jun 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The difference between Naruto and Ei, is that Naruto's stupidity is played off as comic relief and he is shown being battle-smart when it counts. Ei's stupidity is not played off as a comic relief, his actions reflect his stupidity, and he has zero redeeming instance of impressive battle-smarts.


Doesn't make Naruto's actions less stupid. Forgetting Senjutsu is the only viable way to hurt a Juubi's Jinchuuriki could have costed him his life or forgetting Nagato is capable of absorbing chakra despite he saw him absorbing Bee's chakra cloak.

Mistakes such as those don't pass unseen. I do have to admit A is not the sharpest stone out there, but your classification of "uneducated moron" is just dumb. After all, he was chosen to be the leader of the alliance despite several other smart and experienced shinobi were in the same room.



> Yet he is consistent with Ei being not the brightest of the bunch.


Doesn't make him an "educated moron".




> Or you just have smart advisors


Even smart advisors can't protect a country from its own leader if the latter is far too stupid to make a right decision.

So he was a level headed leader when he charged Minato the second time, instead of just falling back? He was a level headed leader when Shikaku and the others had to tell him to sit down and stfu when he had his little freak out about Gin/Kin. He was a level headed leader when he was preparing to murder Naruto?[/QUOTE]
His concerning of Gin/Kin was understandable. Also, how can this classify him as an "uneducated moron"? Seriously, you have given me reasons to believe A isn't the leader that existed for a village, I can agree with that. But you go as far as putting him down just like some sort of illiterate person. 

Also, wanting to kill Naruto was an exaggerated move, but he had his own reasons. Putting Naruto and Bee in the front line was exactly what Obito wanted to do the moment he revealed his plan in front of the Kage. They were going directly into the wolf's mouth and nearly died at several points if it wasn't for the aid of other shinobi. Sure, they would have ended up losing the war, but it was a risk to let them go out and you know that.




> Yes you can when you have smart people assisting you


 I adressed this already.


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## LostSelf (Jun 8, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> To me his worse display of low intelligence was keeping away two of the strongest shinobi in the alliance away from the battlefield it could've costed them the entire war.



So that means that Tsunade, Mei, Gaara, Oonoki are idiots too. It doesn't matter how temperamental Ei is. He was named commander of the most important war ever. The guy is not stupid and knows how to handle things.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm not asking you to get anything. I'm saying the evidence there and if you want to see go nuts.



So I take it you have no evidence.



> Once again, why would she be unable to heal the brain?



You said we've _seen_ Karin heal everything that makes up the human body. I'm asking you to back that up by providing a panel where we've seen her heal a traumatic head injury. 



> There not more impressive, they are equally impressive as B kept up with the same Ei that was keeping pace with KCM-Naruto.



When did B intercept Ei's flicker?



> It's the same style of argument, where every time you get put into a corner it's assumed Ei automatically seamlessly enters R2 and max/speed attacks. You leave no option open for other outcomes.



There's nothing wrong with Ei using his max speed to attack if he feels he needs it. Stop whining. 



> Because he doesn't need to get through a defense here and doesn't know he needs a chop to end Sasuke.



He needs to get through the durability of Sasuke's neck, and I don't think he knew he needed a chop to end Susano'o either.



> Straw-man. Attacking an out-of-context part of a whole, as if it were the point.



You don't know what a Straw Man is. 



> He's presented as acting/talking/thinking in a consistently moronic fashion.



Based on your personal opinion. 



> Straw-man. Your attacking engaging in CQC, while ignoring the context of those engagements, which is the crux of my point.



What context?



> False Equivalency. Obito not only engaged Minato multiple times before the charge, but he was forced into the charged by circumstance.



Obito avoided Minato once before, and he was not "forced" into charging.



> Straw man. Ignoring the context of whole statement and focusing in on one aspect - the first charge alone. Ei didn't need to surrender, it was the Konoha forces that were falling back. Ei's troops already won. Now Ei had two choices take the tactical win or endanger his allies further by pressing the battle for no other reason than seeing red, or he could have taken the win and minimized potential damage. He choose the later, failed, and nearly got his brother killed.



Tactical win? 

Would it _not_ have been advantageous for the Cloud if Minato was killed there?



> Ignoring the context of whole statement and focusing in on one aspect - Ei keeping Naruto away from the battlefield.  Ignoring Ei's attempt to beat Naruto into submission or Ei attempting to kill Naruto. Directly defying the Hokage. Ignoring the political ramification of this in a war where a united front is key. Etc...


_
Tsunade_ was the defiant one. The authority of the alliance had agreed to keep Naruto and B _away_ from the enemy.

It was...unthinkable..for the Raikage to let them join the battle. 



> Orochimaru not being in a position to refuse makes it crafty. as does hiding an attack in the guise of medical ninjutsu.



Okay.

So do you think it was a good plan even though it failed horribly? 



> False Equivalency. Tsunade had a large period of time to observe Madara and his Jutsu and had the support of 4 other Kages before charing in.



That makes it worse. She had time to observe Madara's abilities – and how much he outclassed her – yet she still ran in....and was bested. Both Tsunade and Ei had back up, so I don't see the point in bringing it up.



> False Equivalency. The President is not the same role as Kage. Kage has 2 jobs run the village and physical protect it.



The Kage only really gets involved in battle if the village is invaded, from what I've noticed. The main role is running it.



> I believe I know more about tactics then Ei. Because I'm A) Much smarter than Ei has been presented to be in the story & B) Have access to a 600+ chapter information file, Data-books, Fan-books, etc... that grants me a wealth of knowledge, especially on an MC like Sasuke, that Ei does not have.



lol

Do you have any experience, or even training in combat?




> So he's staying out of the smoke cloud then



Sure.



> Let me try and put this in simple terms: The Raikage may act in a way that is guaranteed to be detrimental to avoid acting in a way that may be more detrimental.



I cannot fathom this logic.

That's like saying "I'll kill my baby son and deal with the emotional pain now to avoid him possibly growing into a serial killer and murdering my entire family."  



> Than maybe this manga isn't for you.



I don't think debating is for you if you're going to ignore logic and common sense.



> Re-read the Danzo fight for starters.



Genjutsu? 

Before I address that, is it the only one?



> Maybe, but how much does it vary? She full restored Sasuke before his fight with Danzo. Than she healed Sasuke from a mortal stab wound after that. This on-top of the other stuff she did.
> 
> Now please prove to me she had enough chakra left where she should be able to heal yet another mortal wound dealt to herself.



No that's fine, I can accept it as a chakra problem.



> Immobile he can still heal Sasuke, like he was still able to move an arm to absorb fodder shinobi. Sauske would just need to come to him.



How is Sasuke going to come to him when Sauce is laying on the floor dying? 



> I'm saying he awakened the other two around the same time. Whether it was at the exact moment he awakened Amaterasu or at another time.



Amaterasu was the conclusion of the B fight. So when, during the B fight, do think Sasuke awakened his other two?




> Falce Equivalency. It's more accurately if you say smoking isn't bad for, than your son says you said smoking isn't bad for you, and you say no I didn't, stop attacking my character.



No.

Answer the original question. You said Ad Hominem doesn't apply when it's true, which is incredibly stupid.

If I tell my son to stop smoking because it will hurt him in the future, and he says "but you smoked!", and that is true, is he really not committing an Ad Hominem logical fallacy?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2014)

Ei's greatest showing of intelligence was having the good sense to let Shikaku make all the strategic decisions in the war.

But you don't have to be very smart throw an electric errubo.


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## Icegaze (Jun 8, 2014)

Dumb or not Ei baby shakes 
3 fodders+sasuke at his weakest MS isn't a threat


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 8, 2014)

Uhh.

A fallacy is a structural flaw.  It doesn't have anything to do with truth.  

_Did you see the mayor getting into the car last Saturday night with a young beautiful woman?_

That is a loaded question.  It may be true that you saw you saw him get into a car with a young beautiful woman, but that doesn't change the fact that the question is loaded.  If it were false, that doesn't make the question any less fallacious, it just makes you a fallacious liar. 

In fact no logic or pure reasoning is concerned with truth.

_All NBD posters live on Saturn.  Pow is an NBD poster, therefore Pow lives on Saturn.
_

That's logically correct, but factually false.  I live on the moon good sir.  Though I'm currently staying in the Stock Pot Inn.

There's a distinction between formal and informal I'm not going into because.


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> So I take it you have no evidence.


Let me give you an example and you can tell me if it's fair or not:

Person Y asks what natural color Sakura's hair is. Person Z responds to the topic and says pink. Person X attacks Person's Z's response saying no it's brown. Person Z asks for evidence Sakura's hair is brown. Person's X says well natural pink hair doesn't exist in the real world, so it can't be pink. Person Z than says the manga is set in a fantasy world that does not abide by the scientific facts of the real world, therefore can you please give evidence from the manga that natural pink hair is impossible. Person X than turns around and says no you have to give multiple scans and many examples that shows characters can have different natural hair color than what is possible in the real world. Person Z than says, hey why should I have to go out of my way to show you examples of this when A) you haven't provided any evidence of your assertions, B) you were the one attacking my opinion so you should be the one with proof warranting you attacking me to begin with, and C) you've read 600 chapters of the manga and the examples of characters with natural hair color that difference from what we have in the real world are countless to the point where you can easily find examples on your own. Persons X than says well obviously you have no evidence than, therefore i'm correct.


It's the same thing here. Your attacking my opinion that Sasuke can survive a liger-bomb enough to be healed before he dies. Your attacking it under the pre-text that because Liger-Bomb targets a different area of Sasuke's body it's more lethal than V1-Lariate. I've asked you to present evidence that this real world aspect of science translates over to the fanasty-world of Naruto, as oppose to other scientific elements that do not translate into said fantasy-world. Instead of presenting any, you than asked me to present many points of evidence that this scientific element doesn't translate. I say I do not feel like putting the time and energy into doing something that I feel should be apparent to someone who has read as much of the manga as you have. 

Now okay, if you said fine, than I don't feel like putting in the effort ether and we'll just agree to disagree than fine, but than maybe shouldn't have attacked my post in the first place. However instead you are trying to shift the blame on-to me, implying I do not have a case. Again that's fine, if you have evidence that proves I do not have a case, like for example providing the evidence I originally asked for that shows this scientific element does translate fluidly over to the manga. But you didn't provide that, so you can't shift the blame onto me. The blame belongs to both of us as nether of us have bother to provide evidence. However the blame rests mostly on you, because you were the one attacking my opinion in the first place and therefore in my mind out of the sake of fairness should be the one backing up your claims more as your trying to discredit my opinion. 

I also fully acknowledge that I could have probably found multiple scans of what i'm talking about with the amount of time I put into this, but based on principle I'm not going to move forward with this discussion or gathering evidence for you, until I see a satisfactory response to what I feel is an utterly ridiculous way to hold a conversation with someone, on your part. Especially since if you look back at this discussion so far, the amount of links and evidence i've provide far outweighs the amount you've provided. So I have no impetus to continue a discussion with someone where I have to do all the work, while the other person just kicks back and demands me to do more work, while doing little to none of their own.


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## ueharakk (Jun 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Let me give you an example and you can tell me if it's fair or not:
> 
> Person Y asks what natural color Sakura's hair is. Person Z responds to the topic and says pink. Person X attacks Person's Z's response saying no it's brown. Person Z asks for evidence Sakura's hair is brown. Person's X says well natural pink hair doesn't exist in the real world, so it can't be pink. Person Z than says the manga is set in a fantasy world that does not abide by the scientific facts of the real world, therefore can you please give evidence from the manga that natural pink hair is impossible. Person X than turns around and says no you have to give multiple scans and many examples that shows characters can have different natural hair color than what is possible in the real world. Person Z than says, hey why should I have to go out of my way to show you examples of this when A) you haven't provided any evidence of your assertions, B) you were the one attacking my opinion so you should be the one with proof warranting you attacking me to begin with, and C) you've read 600 chapters of the manga and the examples of characters with natural hair color that difference from what we have in the real world are countless to the point where you can easily find examples on your own. Persons X than says well obviously you have no evidence than, therefore i'm correct.


Yet what if person Z doesn't have any positive evidence for the assertion that he's making?  By your logic, he could just assert "go look in the manga" regardless if it's in the manga or not, and he'd effectively have been granted the 'shift the burden of proof' card.  And by that exact same logic, all person X would have to say is "go look in the manga" and the burden of proof would be back on person Z to bring up evidence to support his own argument.


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Yet what if person Z doesn't have any positive evidence for the assertion that he's making?  By your logic, he could just assert "go look in the manga" regardless if it's in the manga or not, and he'd effectively have been granted the 'shift the burden of proof' card.  And by that exact same logic, all person X would have to say is "go look in the manga" and the burden of proof would be back on person Z to bring up evidence to support his own argument.


I said the blame is on both people, so it seems that you did not read my post properly at all..... 

Oh why do I bother your just still hating on me due to being -snip- on KCM-Naruto:


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## ueharakk (Jun 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I said the blame is on both people, so it seems that you did not read my post properly at all.....


That's not how logical argumentation works.  The person making the assertion is the one who has the burden of proof, it's only after they fullfill that burden of proof that a counterargument has to be generated.



Turrin said:


> Oh why do I bother your just still hating on me due to being but hurt about my views on KCM-Naruto:


It's not just KCM NAruto, it's pretty much every argument about a character that you simply presuppose should be placed at a certain level.  You're the perfect example of someone who doesn't care about truth and only cares about stubbornly asserting his or her own point regardless of what ridiculous things you have to believe, how logically incoherent your responses have to be, and how radically different your criteria for evaluating one shinobi is versus another in order for that point to be true.  It's the reason why in this thread you are asserting that taking a hit to the head is no different than taking a hit on any other part of the body.  



Let me ask you this, *if one of Bee's swords went through Sasuke's skull instead of his body* what would happen?  Would Sasuke be able to get up use chidori current on the beheader sword, and bite karin?

If Iruka *took this shuriken to the head* instead of his back, does he survive, transform into naruto, tree hop and hit mizuke?

If Sarutobi got stabbed in the head with kusanagi, does he still stand and have his tug of war match with orochimaru?


----------



## Rocky (Jun 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Person Y asks what natural color Sakura's hair is. Person Z responds to the topic and says pink. Person X attacks Person's Z's response saying no it's brown. Person Z asks for evidence Sakura's hair is brown. Person's X says well natural pink hair doesn't exist in the real world, so it can't be pink. Person Z than says the manga is set in a fantasy world that does not abide by the scientific facts of the real world, therefore can you please give evidence from the manga that natural pink hair is impossible. Person X than turns around and says no you have to give multiple scans and many examples that shows characters can have different natural hair color than what is possible in the real world. Person Z than says, hey why should I have to go out of my way to show you examples of this when A) you haven't provided any evidence of your assertions, B) you were the one attacking my opinion so you should be the one with proof warranting you attacking me to begin with, and C) you've read 600 chapters of the manga and the examples of characters with natural hair color that difference from what we have in the real world are countless to the point where you can easily find examples on your own. Persons X than says well obviously you have no evidence than, therefore i'm correct.
> 
> 
> It's the same thing here. Your attacking my opinion that Sasuke can survive a liger-bomb enough to be healed before he dies. Your attacking it under the pre-text that because Liger-Bomb targets a different area of Sasuke's body it's more lethal than V1-Lariate. I've asked you to present evidence that this real world aspect of science translates over to the fanasty-world of Naruto, as oppose to other scientific elements that do not translate into said fantasy-world. Instead of presenting any, you than asked me to present many points of evidence that this scientific element doesn't translate. I say I do not feel like putting the time and energy into doing something that I feel should be apparent to someone who has read as much of the manga as you have.



That had to be one of the worst comparisons I've ever seen.

There are things that exist in Manga that don't exist in our world, such as fire breathing children, nine-tailed demon foxes that blow up mountains...and naturally pink hair.  That was never up for debate to begin with. Knowing that, I would never challenge that point, _had you made it._

Liger Bomb is an enhanced powerbomb. B's Lariat is a lariat. Both are wrestling moves that are used for different purposes and hurt different parts of the body. Thus, I'm concluding that Sasuke surviving Lariat does not automatically indicate he can survive Liger Bomb. It is said that nobody has survived it in the past, as Sasuke was never highlighted for having any sort of superhuman (in comparison to other ninja) durability. 

Now,



> because Liger-Bomb targets a different area of Sasuke's body it's more lethal than V1-Lariate. I've asked you to present evidence that this real world aspect of science translates over to the fanasty-world of Naruto



I'm prepared to provide evidence. Just to clear things up though, are you honestly making the argument that there is _no_ difference between being stuck on the head as opposed to being struck in the chest?


----------



## Turrin (Jun 9, 2014)

@Rocky

- Sasuke was highlighted as having superhuman durability compared to other Ninja, even back in Part I. Haku was hit by KN0-Wave-Arc Naruto and was floored on his ass for while. Sasuke was beaten around countless times at VOTE and kept fighting no problem. Than received hits from KN1 Naruto and still no major problems. In Part I Sasuke tanked multiple swords jammed through his body and laraite enough to be healed. We aren't seeing fodder Shinobi tank those things to the degree Sasuke has. He isn't a durability freak like some, but he has good feats nonetheless.


- And no you are not understanding my point. I think location of the body being hit matters, but not as much as it does in the real-world. For example if a shinobi is hit by an attack of Y strength in the stomach and than hit by attack of Y strength in the face, it's going to do a bit more damage, but if he survived Y attack to the stomach he's going to survive Y attack to the face. This because the way durability is factored in mangas is not the same as it is in the real world. So when we have Sasuke surviving V1-Laraite to the chest enough to be healed, than if Liger-Bomb is equivalent in strength and hits his head, it will do more damage, but I don't see it instant killing him or turning his head into mush. Only if Liger-Bomb is stronger than V1-Lariate do I see that as possible. This because in Shonen the lethality of a hit depends more on the "level" of the hit rather than the placement of the hit. 

So what I want to see evidence of is ether that Liger-Bomb is stronger than V1-Lariate or that Naruto unlike other Shonen-Manga can make it so placement of hit supersedes the value of "level" of hit. Show me that and I'll gladly agree with you, as I never was saying it was necessarily one way or the other, just that I could not recall any examples that substantiate this, while I can recall many where durability doesn't work this way. Of course piercing attacks are different, i'm talking about blunt damage.


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## ueharakk (Jun 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So what I want to see evidence of is ether that Liger-Bomb is stronger than V1-Lariate or *that Naruto unlike other Shonen-Manga can make it so placement of hit supersedes the value of "level" of hit.* Show me that and I'll gladly agree with you, as I never was saying it was necessarily one way or the other, just that I could not recall any examples that substantiate this, while I can recall many where durability doesn't work this way. Of course piercing attacks are different, i'm talking about blunt damage.



Why would piercing attacks be treated differently from blunt damage in this regard?  Do you have a scans from the manga that support your assertion?  I am also interested in seeing one of these 'many examples' where durability doesn't work that way.

The bolded completely depends on the difference in the 'level' of both hits, the placement of the hit CAN supersede the level difference of the hit depending on how different the power of the hits are.  Plus, shounen manga hits are aimed at weak spots like the head, the stomache or the spine, they don't have the fighters trying to punch each other in the chest with normal punches and kicks.  So if Killer bee's attack kills sasuke despite connecting at the chest, it doesn't have to be anywhere near the same power as Ei's hit if Ei does it to Sasuke's head.

Finally, maybe the damage will be equal maybe it won't, however what's being argued is that the technique will result in instantaneous death rather than just death, and that isn't falsified by shounen mangas or anything in this manga.  We've seen Sakura was knocked out when kabuto went flying by her, that's conclusive proof that getting hit in the head *can result in getting instantly taken out of the fight* by results that are exclusive to only the head and not getting hit in the chest or gut.


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## Akitō (Jun 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It's too common to even warrant wasting time giving precise examples. Just re-read any 2 fights over again, and most likely one of them will illustrate this, that's how common it is.



Curious as to where these illustrations are too. 

Your arguments are as usual -snip-. You've got to provide solid evidence that suggests that the region of the body that's being hit doesn't really matter.

And where do you draw the line as to what 'a bit more damage' means? If someone is really close to dying from a hit to the chest, I'm assuming that you acknowledge that it's possible they'd die from the same attack if they're hit in the head. Otherwise, you aren't even agreeing that one would do more damage than the other. And that means this isn't necessarily true:



> For example if a shinobi is hit by an attack of Y strength in the stomach and than hit by attack of Y strength in the face, it's going to do a bit more damage, but if he survived Y attack to the stomach he's going to survive Y attack to the face.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So what I want to see evidence of is ether that Liger-Bomb is stronger than V1-Lariate or that Naruto unlike other Shonen-Manga can make it so placement of hit supersedes the value of "level" of hit. Show me that and I'll gladly agree with you, as I never was saying it was necessarily one way or the other, just that I could not recall any examples that substantiate this, while I can recall many where durability doesn't work this way. Of course piercing attacks are different, i'm talking about blunt damage.



Woah woah, why are piercing attacks different? If the strength of an attack is the only thing that dictates who can survive it, then why does the type of attack matter?

Anyway, some examples I can recall off the top of my head is Sakura getting knocked out by hitting her head, and Asura crushing J-man's throat.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Woah woah, why are piercing attacks different? If the strength of an attack is the only thing that dictates who can survive it, then why does the type of attack matter?


Because piercing attacks are treated differently than blunt attacks. 



> Anyway, some examples I can recall off the top of my head is Sakura getting knocked out by hitting her head, and Asura crushing J-man's throat.


J-man didn't die from his throat being crushed. Asura had previous displayed the ability to rip off SM-J-man's arm like nothing, so a hit from Asura was going to be that damaging to Jiraiya no-matter where it hit.

As for Sakura do you have a link, as I don't know what you referring to specifically.




Akitō said:


> Curious as to where these illustrations are too.
> 
> Your arguments are as usual completely backwards. You've got to provide solid evidence that suggests that the region of the body that's being hit doesn't really matter.
> 
> And where do you draw the line as to what 'a bit more damage' means? If someone is really close to dying from a hit to the chest, I'm assuming that you acknowledge that it's possible they'd die from the same attack if they're hit in the head. Otherwise, you aren't even agreeing that one would do more damage than the other. And that means this isn't necessarily true:


Akito let go of your hate, and get over the fact that One-Piece is a shonen-manga.

Also I don't have to provide shit dude. I'm not trying to hold or win a debate with someone, that's what, You, Rocky, and Ueharakk don't seem to get. I have other shit I want to do and don't care to waste my time trying to win an imaginary debate with someone who is probably not going to change his opinion. Only reason I respond was to see if Rocky had the evidence necessary to warrant his original attack on my post, and if his view point was at all worth considering.  

If you guys want to have a debate with me, go get judges, set a time and a place, and i'll school all three of you combined as far as gathering evidence and writing detailed posts is concerned...anyone who knows my history on the forums knows that I can write a fucking essay that meticulously details my view point if I want to. Just go back to the Jiriaya vs Itachi Great Debate, and see how minimal everyone elses post was in comparison to mine in terms of both scan's/evidence provided and words, and that was in a debate thread.

So learn the difference between having to and wanting to do something.


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## Ghost (Jun 9, 2014)

Just stop, Rocky. You'll lose your youth and health.


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## Akitō (Jun 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Akito let go of your hate, and get over the fact that One-Piece is a shonen-manga.
> 
> Also I don't have to provide shit dude. I'm not trying to hold or win a debate with someone, that's what, You, Rocky, and Ueharakk don't seem to get. I have other shit I want to do and don't care to waste my time trying to win an imaginary debate with someone who is probably not going to change his opinion. Only reason I respond was to see if Rocky had the evidence necessary to warrant his original attack on my post, and if his view point was at all worth considering.
> 
> ...



You act as if I'm out on a personal vendetta against you. Is it that hard to understand that we are genuinely curious as to where in the manga there's evidence that it doesn't really matter what body part is hit with an attack so long as the body is hit? This shouldn't be hard for you to prove at all, and then you can shut us up. Instead you waste your time ranting on something that nobody cares about. 

It's rather telling of how defensive you're getting by the way you think this is about winning an argument. It isn't. I honestly could care less about beating you in an argument because I know that you aren't capable of conducting a proper debate. I'm not even really disagreeing with you. This is me being curious because you said something existed that I didn't know existed - I'm actually interested. I've reread the Haku vs. Sasuke fight and couldn't find anything that supported your stance. Not saying that it isn't there, but I have tried at least. 

And when I said "you've got to", it should have been obvious that I was referring to the fact that in order to make a convincing argument, "you've got to" provide evidence, not that you have to provide the evidence just because.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 9, 2014)

You're either severely overestimating yourself or horribly underestimating Akito and Rocky if you think you can take the both of them on at the same time in a debate with judges.

I'll construct a post for this match-up later.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2014)

Akitō said:


> *You act as if I'm out on a personal vendetta against you*. Is it that hard to understand that we are genuinely curious as to where in the manga there's evidence that it doesn't really matter what body part is hit with an attack so long as the body is hit? This shouldn't be hard for you to prove at all, and then you can shut us up. Instead you waste your time ranting on something that nobody cares about.
> 
> It's rather telling of how defensive you're getting by the way you think this is about winning an argument. It isn't. I honestly could care less about beating you in an argument because I know that *you aren't capable of conducting a proper debate*. I'm not even really disagreeing with you. This is me being curious because you said something existed that I didn't know existed - I'm actually interested. I've reread the Haku vs. Sasuke fight and couldn't find anything that supported your stance. Not saying that it isn't there, but I have tried at least.
> 
> And when I said "you've got to", it should have been obvious that I was referring to the fact that in order to make a convincing argument, "you've got to" provide evidence, not that you have to provide the evidence just because.


- The bold shows why I think it's a personal vendetta. 
- I'm not trying to convince someone, therefore I'm not concerned with whether my point is convincing someone or not. I'm trying to see of Rocky's point is convincing enough to warrant his attack on my original post, where I was merely responding to the OP with my opinion. Again that is the context that people seem to be lacking
- Of course you don't see evidence as far as blunt damage goes in the Haku fight, because the Haku fight had a single instance of blunt damage - Naruto punching Haku. Re-read a few fights. I can understand if you don't want to, because I don't want to do that right now ether, hence me not getting links for you. However don't persecute me for something that you and others are unwilling to do. We'd all be equally guilty of not getting evidence if this was some kind of debate, but it's not, so i'm perfectly willing to accept that my argument isn't convincing, but nether is anyone elses, nor is anyone justified in complaining about my points when they won't get evidence themselves. 

Simply put, I don't feel like putting in all the effort, when others sit back and do little to nothing in comparison. And some times I don't feel like putting in effort even if they do, because I don't think it will A) change their opinion and B) just don't feel like doing it. I'm not the one screaming that everyone has to agree with my opinion here, which of course then I should and would provide evidence.



Atlantic Storm said:


> You're either severely overestimating yourself or horribly underestimating Akito and Rocky if you think you can take the both of them on at the same time in a debate with judges.
> 
> I'll construct a post for this match-up later.


I'm not underestimating anyone, they may very well beat me in a debate with their combine efforts or even individually, but if I actually have a date in place where I can devote time to my posts, it was something I felt was worthwhile debating, and I actually cared to debate extensively, I would beat them both in terms of amount of time and effort crafting the post (word-count, links, etc..). Akito may still beat me for other reasons as I actually think he is a very good debater as far as many subjects are concerned; Rocky is good to as long as it's not about certain characters where I feel bias seeps in. Ether one could beat me, i'm not some arrogant ass who thinks he'd win the debate for sure, just one aspect, that I believe my track record speaks for itself in terms of bringing some of the most detailed posts in the history of the forum

If they want to do it tho, I'd be willing to do so, but only if it can fit my schedule, which consists of a 6-day, 10 hours a day, work week (for that reason I don't know if it would ever work out tho). And we discuss the topic before hand, rules, etc...


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## Akitō (Jun 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - The bold shows why I think it's a personal vendetta.



I can tell you factually that I don't have a personal vendetta against you because my personal opinions on people are irrelevant to my opinions on their stances. If it were someone else who wrote your post, I'd target him or her too. 



> However don't persecute me for something that you and others are unwilling to do.



The difference is that me and others have no idea where to look because we don't think this evidence exists. You on the other hand claimed that there were several instances in the manga of the evidence we're looking for. In other words, we're having to expend much more effort than you. And this is all for an exercise that we think is completely pointless. Is it really that hard for you to find your evidence? Surely you must have some specific instances in mind. 



> change their opinion



If you have the evidence that you say you have, then how the hell can I maintain my opinion? What you're saying is a fact according to you. Do you really think that I'd deny something so blatant?


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2014)

Akitō said:


> I can tell you factually that I don't have a personal vendetta against you because my personal opinions on people are irrelevant to my opinions on their stances. If it were someone else who wrote your post, I'd target him or her too.


And I can tell you that I don't believe you, based on the bold.



> The difference is that me and others have no idea where to look because we don't think this evidence exists. You on the other hand claimed that there were several instances in the manga of the evidence we're looking for. In other words, we're having to expend much more effort than you. And this is all for an exercise that we think is completely pointless. Is it really that hard for you to find your evidence? Surely you must have some specific instances in mind.


Your not expending any effort. You came into a thread and wrote a few lines, that's it. Again why should I go find shit for you, when you aren't finding anything to illustrates to the contrary. Get me links that illustrates the contrary, put some actual effort in, and than maybe I'll bother put some effort in. All I see from you and others is complaining, because I'm not going out of my way to do all of the work, while you do none. Which is even more ridiculous because you are the ones attacking me not the other way around....

And I already said I could have probably found scans by now, but it's the principle of how ridiculous this is that i'm expect to go do this shit for you guys while you guys do nothing, otherwise I get my credibility attacked. So i'm not bothering to do it.



> If you have the evidence that you say you have, then how the hell can I maintain my opinion? What you're saying is a fact according to you. Do you really think that I'd deny something so blatant?


Except that's not what I said. I said there are examples of durability working differently in the manga than the real-world. So I wanted Rocky to give me some examples  from the manga that demonstrates the aspect he was speaking towards translated over to the manga-cannon. He than didn't give any and just told me to prove it doesn't. That was like the third or fourth time I asked for evidence of something Rocky stated, and he demanded I give evidence that proved him wrong instead of giving his own. At a certain point it becomes ridiculous that I have to do all work, while he just sits back and deflects, than when I say I don't feel like doing the work I get attacked. Than people come in at the end of the conversation and attack me because of their personal vendetta's & not having followed the whole conversation.


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## Akitō (Jun 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> when you aren't finding anything to illustrates to the contrary. Get me links that illustrates the contrary, put some actual effort in, and than maybe I'll bother put some effort in.



Our argument is that real-world logic should apply to the manga unless proven otherwise. That argument isn't contingent upon specific evidence because it's intuitive: if someone hits you in the head, you should be more damaged than if someone hits you in the stomach. That is based on how the real world works. Do you disagree that the basic assumption we should use is that real-world logic is applicable to the manga if we have no reason to doubt it? 



> And I already said I could have probably found scans by now, but it's the principle of how ridiculous this is that i'm expect to go do this shit for you guys while you guys do nothing, otherwise I get my credibility attacked. So i'm not bothering to do it.



The reason I at least haven't linked any pages is because this topic is really hard to actually prove IMO, which is why I found it so odd that you said there were several instances that supported your conclusion. To really determine whether or not attacks to the head do more damage than attacks to the stomach, you'd have to have the same attack directed at both parts of the same person. I honestly can't think of any instances of that. But I don't need any in-manga evidence because my stance is the intuitive one based on real-world reasoning. The author of this manga most likely knows how the real world works, and so it's likely that he's working under its laws unless otherwise stated. 



> Except that's not what I said. I said there are examples of durability working differently in the manga than the real-world.



It is what you said. According to you, it is a fact that there are examples of there not really being a difference between hitting someone in the head and hitting them in a stomach. That is what I'm disputing only because I genuinely don't think there are. I don't understand why you're mincing words.


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## ARGUS (Jun 10, 2014)

^^^^^^^ Can i be the judge for ur debate,,,,???


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## Lord Aizen (Jun 10, 2014)

A wins no difficulty


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## Sans (Jun 10, 2014)

Turrin, when you make an assertion, it's traditional that you provide the evidence to back it up.

Telling other people to go find it themselves is a little silly.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2014)

I haven't read all the posts and I am jumping in from the middle. Regarding blunt vs piercing type attacks: Depending on who or what the target is, the results can vary. 
But against flesh, piercing attacks are more lethal.

You can test it yourself. Punch your friend in the chest with all your strength. And then grap a sharp object(preferably a knife) and try to pierce their chest with the half the force of your punch. I am pretty sure the piercing object will cause more damage than your punch, even though the force behind it is lower.

Examples of this can be seen countless times in the manga.


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Our argument is that real-world logic should apply to the manga unless proven otherwise. That argument isn't contingent upon specific evidence because it's intuitive: if someone hits you in the head, you should be more damaged than if someone hits you in the stomach. That is based on how the real world works. Do you disagree that the basic assumption we should use is that real-world logic is applicable to the manga if we have no reason to doubt it?
> .


We have tons of reason to doubt that real world logic applies in the manga. Clothing is more durable than titanium in many instance. People keep fighting with wounds they'd never survive in real life. People's phisology is totally different than in real life containing an entire network of chakra that differs in function from anything we have in real life. A person's soul can be ripped from their body, which cause them to physical decay. People spurt enough blood out of them where they'd be in the hospital from bloodloss and it's never an issue. The list goes on and on. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for some evidence that a certain aspect of physiology still applies in the manga-cannon.



> The reason I at least haven't linked any pages is because this topic is really hard to actually prove IMO, which is why I found it so odd that you said there were several instances that supported your conclusion. To really determine whether or not attacks to the head do more damage than attacks to the stomach, you'd have to have the same attack directed at both parts of the same person. I honestly can't think of any instances of that. But I don't need any in-manga evidence because my stance is the intuitive one based on real-world reasoning. The author of this manga most likely knows how the real world works, and so it's likely that he's working under its laws unless otherwise stated.


It's not intuitive because the manga varies drastically from how things work in the real world in many other instances. 



> It is what you said. According to you, it is a fact that there are examples of there not really being a difference between hitting someone in the head and hitting them in a stomach. That is what I'm disputing only because I genuinely don't think there are. I don't understand why you're mincing words.


No it's not, your ether outright lying or miss-informed. This is what I said:

"As for placement of the attack, if you can show me where Kishi has cared to show that placement matters in terms of a physiological sense (besides vital organ targeting) than I'll concede that point, however I have seen no indication that Kishimoto cares about that. It just simply boils down to whether the attack overrides X, where X stands for the characters overall durability, which mostly fluctuates a bit with plot."

And than this is what I said after asking Rocky several times for evidence and he just said manga follows relief science:

"The manga doesn't abide by real life science, so that is a moot point. We've seen shinobi hit in varying areas of the body, the fact that you can't provide a single example of this mattering or being highlighted as causing different types of damage, shows you that Kishimoto doesn't give a shit about making this aspect of the manga realistic. Again, if not please show me where he indicates that he does. It's your argument and therefore you should be the one to support it.



Rocky said:


> Did you just make this up?
> .


No, shinobi always have been more resistant to blunt attacks of the same level as piercing attacks. For example in your own scan where Kabuto gets blown away by KN3 chakra roar, if that had been a piercing attack with the same force directed at him he'd be in much worse shape. But he tanked the roar w/o too significant of injury.



> 3


Finally. Okay that"s actually a good point he does seem to focus in on the placement mattering in that instance. Interestingly he doesn't seem to give that focus when people are hit at other times with shockwaves and send flying smashing their heads, like in the instances of ST or when an explosive is detonated in someone's face. Maybe he just doesn't bother to focus on placement unless it's super significant to the plot. But anyway, I'll accept that and is all that I wanted to begin with.


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## Stermor (Jun 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> People are saying Sasuke needs Enton and Stage-1 Susano'o to contend with Ei, but obviously Sasuke awakened those abilities in his fight with Killer-B. So he will likely awaken those abilities throughout this battle against Ei.
> 
> Anyway Taka probably goes down similar to how it went down against B, but ultimately Taka will perform better
> 
> ...



him gaining amaterasu or susanoo would do jack shit.. since sasuke dies about 2 seconds into the fight.. the raikage rushes sasuke.. sasuke maybe dogdes(i'm of the opinion that the raikage let him) anyway the raikage grabs sasuke and slam kills him.. if sasuke at the point miraculously awakens both susanoo and amaterasu. susanoo would protect him for that single blow. and amaterasu might give E a single split second pauze.. after which he rams into the back of susanoo and splatters sasuke's brain... 

also lol at the raikage letting karin heal sasuke even he survives laiger bomb.. if sasuke survives the raikage is going to the stomp sasuke dead well before juugo or suigestu get a chance to register it.. if for some reason E decided to do some biceps curls so sasuke can roll back to karin for healing.. the moment he is finished with hes set. sasuke dies again.. and then karin aswell.. juugo and suigestu cannot stop the raikage. only delay for a split second not nearly enough for karin to heal sasuke.. 

anyway you scenario requires E to let sasuke live at his leisure until he not just awakens 1 ability but 2 and also gains enough control over it without collapsing.. which is laughably idiotic. when the raikage would end the fight in the first second.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Finally. Okay that"s actually a good point he does seem to focus in on the placement mattering in that instance. Interestingly he doesn't seem to give that focus when people are hit at other times with shockwaves and send flying smashing their heads, like in the instances of ST or when an explosive is detonated in someone's face. Maybe he just doesn't bother to focus on placement unless it's super significant to the plot. But anyway, I'll accept that and is all that I wanted to begin with.



There's also _this._ Just some extra evidence.

If we can agree that Liger Bomb and v1 Lariat are _comparable_ in power, then the one that slams the target on their _head_ may be more fatal, as that area is more _vulnerable_ than the torso. 

That may be why Raikage's Liger Bomb is hyped as the technique that nobody has survived, even though Ei can also perform Lariats on the level of B.

Lastly, even if Sasuke did live through it, Liger Bomb doesn't send the target flying away like Lariat. Ei would still have Sauce in his hands, and could simply finish him off before any "medics" can get to him.


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There's also _this._ Just some extra evidence.


That's only evidence if I assume the fodder that is Kin wouldn't be KO'd by any hit at all 

But point already taken.



> If we can agree that Liger Bomb and v1 Lariat are comparable in power, then the one that slams the target on their head may be more fatal, as that area is more vulnerable than the torso.


I don't think they are comparable in power, I think V1-Lariate is stronger. However in light of the Sakura scan Liger-Bomb may knock Sasuke unconscious and unable to bite Karin. I'm not sure if Juugo's weird body replacement would work on the head 



> Lastly, even if Sasuke did live through it, Liger Bomb doesn't send the target flying away like Lariat. Ei would still have Sauce in his hands, and could simply finish him off before any "medics" can get to him.


If  Suigetsu is already KO'd otherwise I expect he'd step in and block the attack as he did canonically to a very similar assault. Juugo or Karin than grabs Sasuke, and heals him, if Juugo's "healing" can handle a head wound.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't think they are comparable in power, I think V1-Lariate is stronger.



Why do you?



> I'm not sure if Juugo's weird body replacement would work on the head



That's a very good question.

Provided Jugo had the opportunity to try, we don't know enough about the technique to say for certain either way.



> If Suigetsu is already KO'd otherwise I expect he'd step in and block the attack as he did canonically to a very similar assault.



This is different though. In the Manga, the Raikage was rushing in from a distance, giving Suigetsu time to get to Sasuke. Here, Raikage doesn't have to cover any groud, as he's should still be _holding_ onto Sasuke. If Sasuke is still breathing, all it would take is one back-breaker or horizontal chop and it's "GG brah."


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## Akitō (Jun 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No it's not, your ether outright lying or miss-informed. This is what I said:



Completely wrong. 



Rocky said:


> Can you give me multiple chapter & page numbers that demonstrate how attacking different parts of the body is irrelevant in the type of injury sustained?





Turrin said:


> It's too common to even warrant wasting time giving precise examples. Just re-read any 2 fights over again, and most likely one of them will illustrate this, that's how common it is.



Since Rocky provided some evidence in support of his conclusion, can you now find your evidence? 

And when I said that we should assume that real-world logic applies unless we have a reason to doubt it, I meant that we should assume that specific laws of the real world apply unless they are proven to not be laws in the manga. Just because there are things that are supernatural in the manga doesn't mean that everything is supernatural, nor should it mean in my mind that we should doubt real-world laws until we see them confirmed. I know you disagree with that, but just wanted to clarify. 

I don't really understand your position right now. Because there are instances of some things not working out in the way they do in real life, we should now assume that everything will just work out oppositely to how they work in real life? If not, why are you assuming that this specific aspect will work out oppositely?


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Why do you?


Because Base-B demonstrated greater physical strength than Ei when he overcame him in their Lariate clash. So i'd think V1 B is considerably stronger than Ei, plus his Lariate has the additional benefit of having the piercing chakra horns, and I already discussed why I find piercing attacks more lethal than blunt attacks in the manga. 

Now granted Liger-Bomb is a different style of attack, in that Ei jumps and smashes someone to the ground, but if anything I'd think that makes it weaker as it doesn't have the build up of momentum from Ei/B's great speed behind it. Or at the very least the two cancel each other out. 



> That's a very good question.
> 
> Provided Jugo had the opportunity to try, we don't know enough about the technique to say for certain either way.


Agreed.



> This is different though. In the Manga, the Raikage was rushing in from a distance, giving Suigetsu time to get to Sasuke. Here, Raikage doesn't have to cover any groud, as he's should still be holding onto Sasuke. If Sasuke is still breathing, all it would take is one back-breaker or horizontal chop and it's "GG brah."


Which is a fair point, but would depend on the distance Suigetsu is from Sasuke at the point in the match where this occurs. If he's far away than Ei will finish his strike, but if he's close by he will guard. Juugo can also probably guard at the expense of his person. Not sure about the speed of Karin's chakra chains, but the possibility is there for her as well. So I'm thinking the odds are better than not that someone will be there to guard for Sasuke in that situation.

This is what I'll say about the match though. The points that you've raised are good enough where I consider Ei winning more viable now. To me it now all comes down to how the match gets played out. It's not like Ei can't win or Taka can't win, it would just be a matter of how each decide to act, which is difficult to predict. If Ei throws around R2 Liger Bombs and Piercing Chops he could win, but if he uses standard punches, Lariate, back-hands, etc.. he could loose. If Sasuke acts strategically like the Danzo fight he could out play Ei who is at the very least not nearly as strategically sound as him, though if he rushes Ei again and again his chances go down. Basically I don't see it as black and white anymore, but I also still don't see it as a guaranteed win for Ei.



Akitō said:


> Completely wrong.


I like how you left the context leading up to that out. Yeah this is toutes not a personal vendetta.



> Since Rocky provided some evidence in support of his conclusion, can you now find your evidence?


I already told Rocky a few of the examples I was thinking of and I told you a few examples as well.



> And when I said that we should assume that real-world logic applies unless we have a reason to doubt it, I meant that we should assume that specific laws of the real world apply unless they are proven to not be laws in the manga. Just because there are things that are supernatural in the manga doesn't mean that everything is supernatural, nor should it mean in my mind that we should doubt real-world laws until we see them confirmed. I know you disagree with that, but just wanted to clarify.


I disagree. If there are tons of real world laws that don't apply than i'm not de-facto accepting that others necessarily do. You can if you want, as that's up to you.



> I don't really understand your position right now. Because there are instances of some things not working out in the way they do in real life, we should now assume that everything will just work out oppositely to how they work in real life? If not, why are you assuming that this specific aspect will work out oppositely?


I'm not surprised that you don't understand my position because you came in at the end of a discussion specifically out of a personal vendetta.


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## Akitō (Jun 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I like how you left the context leading up to that out. Yeah this is toutes not a personal vendetta.



You quoted his post man. Are you really so delusional that you can't see how this looks to someone who isn't you? You responded to his request that you give him pages that "demonstrate how attacking different parts of the body is irrelevant in the type of injury sustained" by saying "It's too common to even warrant wasting time giving precise examples." Like, what? 

I understand that you (before Rocky's post) were talking about real-world laws in general, but then Rocky pinpointed one part of that (attacking different parts of the body) and _you responded to that_, not the general idea of us assuming real-world laws apply unless otherwise stated. I would hope that you would see how it's easy and logical for someone who knew the context of the debate to assume that you were responding to what you quoted and not something that wasn't quoted. 



Turrin said:


> I disagree. If there are tons of real world laws that don't apply than i'm not de-facto accepting that others necessarily do. You can if you want, as that's up to you.



So why are we to assume the opposite of what happens in the real world is true? I don't understand the rationale behind that. At the very least, you can't make any conclusion at all (neither that where you hit the body matters nor that where you hit the body doesn't matter).


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Because Base-B demonstrated greater physical strength than Ei when he overcame him in their Lariate clash. So i'd think V1 B is considerably stronger than E



Ah but remember, Base B didn't surpass Ei until their _final_ Lariat contest. During that fight, B had tried Lariat not once but twice before, and it failed both times. The first time, Raikage _casually_ tanked B's Lariat and _swatted_ him aside.

Furthermore, RnY Raikage matched v1 B in their Double Lariat against Kisame. Now, you could say that B lowered his power to match Ei, but that doesn't make any sense. If _Base_ B was more powerful than RnY Ei, then why would B power _up_ to Version 1 only to drastically _lower_ his power to match Ei's? Why not just lower his strength from Base?



> plus his Lariate has the additional benefit of having the piercing chakra horns, and I already discussed why I find piercing attacks more lethal than blunt attacks in the manga.



Holy shit, I didn't realize that he formed the Ox Head in v1. 

That said, I don't think those horns actually made contact with Sasuke. When you look at the scan of B actually hitting him, you can see B's arm in contact with Sasuke's body, but there aren't any horns through Sauce's back. Plus, you can kind of see the two horns above Sasuke's shoulder.

I think B just rammed him with the chakra head, which is consistent with what he did in v2 anyway. He didn't stab him with the horns. That would actually prevent the maneuver from being an actual lariat. 



> This is what I'll say about the match though. The points that you've raised are good enough where I consider Ei winning more viable now. To me it now all comes down to how the match gets played out. It's not like Ei can't win or Taka can't win, it would just be a matter of how each decide to act, which is difficult to predict. If Ei throws around R2 Liger Bombs and Piercing Chops he could win, but if he uses standard punches, Lariate, back-hands, etc.. he could loose. If Sasuke acts strategically like the Danzo fight he could out play Ei who is at the very least not nearly as strategically sound as him, though if he rushes Ei again and again his chances go down. Basically I don't see it as black and white anymore, but I also still don't see it as a guaranteed win for Ei.



I'll take it.


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Ah but remember, Base B didn't surpass Ei until their _final_ Lariat contest. During that fight, B had tried Lariat not once but twice before, and it failed both times. The first time, Raikage _casually_ tanked B's Lariat and _swatted_ him aside.


I can buy that B got a bit better during the course of that fight &/or due to heat of the cards - WOF - the typical BS manga stuff. But he had to be within the same realm as Ei strength-wise even before that, and that increase would have been the slight edge to over-power Ei, nothing more. Given that I still believe V1-B is physically more powerful than Ei, because that was Base-B.



> That said, I don't think those horns actually made contact with Sasuke. When you look at the scan of B actually hitting him, you can see B's arm in contact with Sasuke's body, but there aren't any horns through Sauce's back. Plus, you can kind of see the two horns above Sasuke's shoulder.


I think the horns pierced him as he was being blown away. That's really the only explanation for Sasuke's chest being torn apart, as we saw even V2-B Lariate Nagato w/o the horns and his chest wasn't torn apart. It's like when he hits Kisame, we don't see the horns go directly through Kisame on impact, but when he's blown away his chest is torn apart. 

Maybe it could be the chakra head as well, but if that's the case than the head itself must also have piercing qualities that shredded Sasuke/Kisame's chest.

And ether way if Base-B is roughly around Ei's level of strength. Than he's enhanced by V1 and than the strikes power is enhanced by chakra head even further, I still think it's very safe to say that V1 Lariate should be stronger than Liger-Bomb. This is w/o even going into the speed and momentum aspect, which I also believe favors V1 Lariate, and am being pretty generous to write it off as wash in comparison to Liger Bomb's body slamming force.



Akitō said:


> You quoted his post man. Are you really so delusional that you can't see how this looks to someone who isn't you? You responded to his request that you give him pages that "demonstrate how attacking different parts of the body is irrelevant in the type of injury sustained" by saying "It's too common to even warrant wasting time giving precise examples." Like, what?
> 
> I understand that you (before Rocky's post) were talking about real-world laws in general, but then Rocky pinpointed one part of that (attacking different parts of the body) and _you responded to that_, not the general idea of us assuming real-world laws apply unless otherwise stated. I would hope that you would see how it's easy and logical for someone who knew the context of the debate to assume that you were responding to what you quoted and not something that wasn't quoted.
> .


Rocky was always talking about one aspect, and I was always talking in general. I see how the post can be taken the wrong way, if someone does not read the context leading up to it, but that's really not my problem. I wasn't writing in such a way that 10 posts (or whatever it was) deep into a conversation with a specific person, so that everyone could perfectly follow it. 



> So why are we to assume the opposite of what happens in the real world is true? I don't understand the rationale behind that. At the very least, you can't make any conclusion at all (neither that where you hit the body matters nor that where you hit the body doesn't matter).


I wasn't assuming anything, I was asking for evidence that this aspect of real-world logic applied, that is all. That doesn't mean I'm saying the contrary should be assumed, it means if your bringing an argument to me based on how things work in the real world I'd like some evidence that they work the same way in the manga-cannon, because there is multiple precedences set where things do not work the same.


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## Akitō (Jun 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Rocky was always talking about one aspect, and I was always talking in general. I see how the post can be taken the wrong way, if someone does not read the context leading up to it, but that's really not my problem. I wasn't writing in such a way that 10 posts (or whatever it was) deep into a conversation with a specific person, so that everyone could perfectly follow it.



Then you are debating about two different things. He asked you a specific question about that one aspect, so I've no idea why you'd answer his quote as if it were in reference to your original point. Your answer has nothing to do with his question. 

And this isn't even about reading the context of the debate. I read the context and I still think it's completely irrational for you to believe that the logical thing for someone to assume (if they read the previous posts) from what you quoted was that you were responding to something that was different than what you were quoting. You were talking about something, he switched the conversation by asking you a question about something different, and then you quote him but go back and continue talking about the previous 'something' as if it answers his question. Why even quote that part of his post then? 

It's like if you were talking about the sun, and then someone switches topics and asks what color the sky is, and you answered "Yellow!" because you were actually referring to the color of the sun. Does it honestly seem like the right assumption to make that you aren't actually answering his question but are instead talking about something completely different? 



> I wasn't assuming anything, I was asking for evidence that this aspect of real-world logic applied, that is all. That doesn't mean I'm saying the contrary should be assumed, it means if your bringing an argument to me based on how things work in the real world I'd like some evidence that they work the same way in the manga-cannon, because there is multiple precedences set where things do not work the same.



Then what is (or was) your opinion on the matter? Were you not of the opinion that the Lariat and Liger Bomb were equal because of various reasons, one of which was that where a person is hit doesn't matter in relation to the damage dealt. Because that was the reason Rocky thought they were different, and you seemed to disagree with his reasoning. 

And if that is your opinion, why do you believe it?


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2014)

Akitō said:


> And this isn't even about reading the context of the debate. I read the context and I still think it's completely irrational for you to believe that the logical thing for someone to assume (if they read the previous posts) from what you quoted was that you were responding to something that was different than what you were quoting. You were talking about something, he switched the conversation by asking you a question about something different, and then you quote him but go back and continue talking about the previous 'something' as if it answers his question. Why even quote that part of his post then?


Again don't care if you misunderstood. 



> Then what is (or was) your opinion on the matter? Were you not of the opinion that the Lariat and Liger Bomb were equal because of various reasons, one of which was that where a person is hit doesn't matter in relation to the damage dealt. Because that was the reason Rocky thought they were different, and you seemed to disagree with his reasoning.
> 
> And if that is your opinion, why do you believe it?


My opinion is that V1 Lariate is stronger. Rocky than brought up the placement of the attack being an issue. To which I asked, for evidence that Kishi cares about this aspect.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Again don't care if you misunderstood.
> 
> 
> My opinion is that V1 Lariate is stronger. Rocky than brought up the placement of the attack being an issue. To which I asked, for evidence that Kishi cares about this aspect.



Liger bomb should be comparable to double lariat. Because you get squished between the ground and A's full body strength.

It also should be more lethal than a lariat because the target area is mainly your head and your neck.
If your skull doesn't crack, your neck will get broken most likely, unless you have the durability to match that power.


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## Akitō (Jun 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> My opinion is that V1 Lariate is stronger. Rocky than brought up the placement of the attack being an issue. To which I asked, for evidence that Kishi cares about this aspect.



Do you believe that the Lariat is stronger than the Liger Bomb regardless of whether or not the placement of the hit matters?

And I'm trying not to beat a dead-horse, but it seems like earlier in the thread you believed that it is obvious that the placement of the hit doesn't matter: 



> Instead of presenting any, you than asked me to present many points of evidence that this scientific element doesn't translate. I say I do not feel like putting the time and energy into doing something that I feel should be apparent to someone who has read as much of the manga as you have.



_This scientific element._ If I'm reading this correctly, the "doing something" is in reference to Rocky's request (i.e. that you provide points of evidence for the scientific element he's talking about). You're implying here that the many points of evidence in support of the fact that placement doesn't matter should be obvious to Rocky. Or are you going to tell me that these two side-by-side sentences really don't have anything to do with each other? 

And beyond that, it's clear that you believed (or believe) that the placement of the hit doesn't matter seeing as how you believed the evidence in support of this conclusion should be apparent to Rocky.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 11, 2014)

The evidence you feel should be so obvious apparently isn't.  Akito, Rocky, and myself can't recall or find a single instance where an attack to the head is equal to a blow to the body, and no one else has stepped forward with an example. The only people to step forward are ones who question your position, and it doesn't seem like you're rocking any sort of silent majority.  

I don't understand why you would spend so many posts typing out responses to everyone for several days talking about how this isn't worth your time, when you could have posted two panels from any given fight in the manga to silence and help everyone.


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## Cord (Jun 12, 2014)

Base Bee has almost effortlessly dismantled Taka (prior to Sasuke getting healed that is). I've no doubt that Ei would achieve a similar feat given his superior speed and defense with Raiton no Yoroi, only that he'd probably kill them instantly.


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