# Berserker (Fate) vs Savage Hulk



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 11, 2010)

Berserker 
Link removed

The Hulk 
Link removed

Bloodlusted (kinda unnecessary since both are automatic BL but meh)
Both at their prime. In Savage Hulk's case, just his best feats. The other versions of Hulk are barred.
Battle takes place at Ilyia's mansion.
Ilyia remains unharmed for this fight.


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## skiboydoggy (May 11, 2010)

Hulk kills Berserker once (if at all), then gets bored because he'll never be able to bypass God Hand again.


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## blueblip (May 11, 2010)

^Pretty much. Hulk will definitely be able to kill Berserker once, but the problem is, will Hulk give enough of a shit to stick around and figure 11 different methods to put him down for good? Hell, will he stick around long enough to figure out that he needs to kill him different ways each time?

Berserker should be able to hurt Hulk somewhat, but not enough to kill him.


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## migukuni (May 11, 2010)

hulk isn't exactly the smartest guy around


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## Endless Mike (May 11, 2010)

He just kills him with more power each time, unless you can show me feats of him surviving planetary level attacks.


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## skiboydoggy (May 11, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> He just kills him with more power each time, unless you can show me feats of him surviving planetary level attacks.




Basically once Berserker has developed an immunity to it, or is immune to it in the first place, it doesn't matter how strong an attack is. A Hulk Smash is a Hulk Smash is a Hulk Smash, it really doesn't matter how strong it gets.


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## Endless Mike (May 11, 2010)

Show durability feats to prove it or it's pointless hyperbole like "Susanoo is invincible".


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## skiboydoggy (May 11, 2010)

If only Berserker ever had reason to fight Arcueid or ORT, we'd know for sure, but as it stands all I can give is an explanation on why the statement makes sense.

1) The person speaking there is Saber, and her opinion is backed up by Rin. The first is a Heroic Spirit linked directly to the Throne of Heroes and would know what it would take to take down another Heroic Spirit. The second is a widely read and knowledgeable Magus, who once again would know what she's talking about.

2) It really doesn't matter what weapons you bring to bear against a Servant. The important thing is the conceptual strength behind them. A Servant is essentially a legend or a myth given form, so trying to punch them out, shoot them, or even nuke them is as meaningless as trying kill a legend with your bare hands. It's like trying to physically kill history, which unless you're some kind of Orwellian superpower, is pretty much impossible. A weapon that's not a "divine mystery", which can be broadly interpreted to mean "magical" can't even hurt a Servant at all. God Hand is just a logical extension of that, where you need your weapon/attack to be a *strong* divine mystery to even deal any damage. The only reason why the Hulk gets a free pass to one kill in the first place is because he can do physically impossible things with his sheer strength. Somebody like the Thing or Luke Cage shouldn't even be able to damage Berserker at all.


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## Juri (May 11, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Show durability feats to prove it or it's pointless hyperbole like "Susanoo is invincible".



This is my main problem with Nasuverse. A large portion of what they are stated to be able to do I consider hyperbole and the fact that they seem to be accepted by most without any feats to back them up really irks me.

I remember someone once saying berserker had Mountain level+ d. capacity and citing Shiro as a source when some scenes later he fought with archer in Ilya's mansion, was obviously very serious and yet most of the place was still in pretty good shape for someone who could level a mountain with a swing.

/rant.


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## Endless Mike (May 11, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> *snip wanking and no - limits fallacies*



Show me planetary durability feats or get out.


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## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

F/SN relies a lot on data sheets, words of god and exposition to establish their power because most of the weapon involved are conceptual.

Taking an 'only feats' approach without taking into account God Hand's concept will net you very weird/incorrect result, as a NP below A rank wont hurt him despite a C-rank NP already has equivalent power to an A-rank attack, but a block razing attack or just a simple stab can kill him if it's above A rank.

I'll say Hulk can kill Berserker more than once though, it's not like he can only smash things up
Thunder Clap probably count as a different method of killing.



> Show me planetary durability feats or get out.


In before 'show me Avalon resisting time-space manipulating attacks or get out' and 'show me EA busting planet or get out' I guess

It's like the case of Z with 2 Koh Ou Yoku being capable of resisting anything sort of an attack that has universal collateral damage. No direct feat was shown, but because the one confirming it, Tokimi was supposed to have the knowledge, and words of god confirm it, Z have universal + durability


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## Juri (May 11, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> F/SN relies a lot on data sheets, words of god and exposition to establish their power because most of the weapon involved are conceptual.
> 
> *Taking an 'only feats' approach without taking into account God Hand's concept will net you very weird/incorrect result, as a NP below A rank wont hurt him despite a C-rank NP already has equivalent power to an A-rank attack, but a block razing attack or just a simple stab can kill him if it's above A rank.*
> 
> ...



From Hulk's feats, if he were to be ranked in Nasuverse, His damage rank would be EX, also seeing as he can physically interact with spirits, the "you need a conceptual weapon to harm him" is out the window and even if he couldn't the rule of equivalence would still kick it out the window anyway. 

I never understood the reasoning behind Caliburn taking 7 in one go (I personally see it as an author cop out cuz he couldn't think his way aroung godhand) and I wonder if Hulk can replicate this.


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## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

Or Caliburn could have a concept that exploited a loop hole in God Hand's concept
Just as Illya mentioned, a battle of Noble Phantasm is a battle of loop holes.
It doesn't help that Caliburn's concept was never mentioned

How many more attacks does Hulk have beside "Hulk Smash~!!!" and Thunder Clap? He may actually kill Berserker if each can do 3-4 lives in and he has over 3 methods of killing


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## skiboydoggy (May 11, 2010)

Cycloid said:


> From Hulk's feats, if he were to be ranked in Nasuverse, His damage rank would be EX, also seeing as he can physically interact with spirits, the "you need a conceptual weapon to harm him" is out the window and even if he couldn't the rule of equivalence would still kick it out the window anyway.



That's not really how ranks work. "Nuclear Bomb" would have no rank worth a damn and even if Zero/Berserker used one or Caster Reinforced one to make it conceptual, it probably wouldn't harm Berserker anyway. But that's not an argument I want to get into.

The part about Hulk being able to interact with spirits bypassing the conceptual weapon deal I do agree with though, but I don't agree with any weapon being able to hurt a Heroic Spirit due to equivalence. It still needs to be magical in nature. Rock Lee kicking Saber should do nothing, but Sakura using her chakra-burst punch should do something.



> I never understood the reasoning behind Caliburn taking 7 in one go (I personally see it as an author cop out cuz he couldn't think his way aroung godhand) and I wonder if Hulk can replicate this.



I think Saber used a Broken Phantasm to destroy Caliburn while inside Berserker, bypassing God Hand. It's because God Hand only manifests as Berserker's skin, so if you can plant some kind of magical bomb inside him, you can actually deal damage regardless of God Hand's immunity.

But 7 deaths is still a massive cop out. (And Saber only actually needed to kill Berserker five times anyway.)


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## Juri (May 11, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> That's not really how ranks work. "Nuclear Bomb" would have no rank worth a damn and even if *Zero/Berserker used one* or Caster Reinforced one to make it conceptual, it probably wouldn't harm Berserker anyway. But that's not an argument I want to get into.



really? are you sure? cuz I have a really hard time believing that.



skiboydoggy said:


> The part about Hulk being able to interact with spirits bypassing the conceptual weapon deal I do agree with though, but I don't agree with any weapon being able to hurt a Heroic Spirit due to equivalence. It still needs to be magical in nature. Rock Lee kicking Saber should do nothing, but Sakura using her chakra-burst punch should do something.



Same reason why anyone can hurt bleach chars and they are visible. If everyone worth mentioning in their verse can hurt them, then they are subject to equivalence.



skiboydoggy said:


> *I think Saber used a Broken Phantasm to destroy Caliburn while inside Berserker, bypassing God Hand. It's because God Hand only manifests as Berserker's skin, so if you can plant some kind of magical bomb inside him, you can actually deal damage regardless of God Hand's immunity.*
> 
> But 7 deaths is still a massive cop out. (And Saber only actually needed to kill Berserker five times anyway.)



I guess that is possible but it's speculation at best and could lead to the argument that hulk rips him open and goes to town on his insides before he heals.


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## skiboydoggy (May 11, 2010)

Cycloid said:


> really? are you sure? cuz I have a really hard time believing that.



Zero/Berserker makes every weapon he wields a C-Rank Noble Phantasm, unless they already have a higher rank before hand. Therefore it wouldn't hurt Berserker.



> Same reason why anyone can hurt bleach chars and they are visible. If everyone worth mentioning in their verse can hurt them, then they are subject to equivalence.



Many characters have to jump hoops to even be able to damage Servants. Kuzuki Souichirou can't, for example, unless Caster Reinforces his fists. Emiya Kiritsugu can dual wield handcannons, but similarly can't hurt Servants even though he should theoretically be able to hit them with sniper rifles.



> I guess that is possible but it's speculation at best and could lead to the argument that hulk rips him open and goes to town on his insides before he heals.



Pretty much. PIS in the extreme is PIS.


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## Juri (May 11, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> Zero/Berserker makes every weapon he wields a C-Rank Noble Phantasm, unless they already have a higher rank before hand. Therefore it wouldn't hurt Berserker.



Oh now that you mention it you're right about that. I'm still getting a does not compute error that he will tank a nuke from Zero Berserker though.


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## Raigen (May 11, 2010)

Hulk has beaten on Thor and lifted Mjolnir through sheer muscle. Divinity doesn't mean shit.


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## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

You don't even understand the point Saber was making, do you
the divinity being referred to is not the divinity/spirit/ghost statuses, which will be equalized, or the title of god which can range anywhere between imbecile and omnipotent and thus has no real meaning, but the conceptual protection that is God Hand, a 'divine mystery' in Nasuverse (which is a totally different universe from Marvel). In fact, Gilgamesh from the same universe trump Berserker in divinity stat (2/3 God vs 1/2 God), but he doesn't have God Hand.


It's like, Koh Ou Yoku is divine protection, but if you say 'Hulk Smash puny Koh Ou Yoku' because Hulk has beaten divine beings before, you are dead wrong


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## Raigen (May 11, 2010)

Hulk puts the hurt on people who have actually destroyed planets and not claimed via hyperbole bullcrap that they can or could resist it. Like Drax, the Surfer, Thor, and more.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 11, 2010)

Doesn't God Hand grant Berserker invulnerability to that attack or weapon that killed him? Archer is able to kill Berserker multiple times is because he has access to various weapons. And plus his Broken Phantasm ability increases the power of the weapon he's using. Hence someone like Shiro can kill Berserker multiple times cuz

A)
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Him being a younger Archer and thus being a part of history of Heroic Spirit EMIYA 




B ) Him tracing Caliburn ( an already haxx version of Excalibur ) + Shiro's ability of Broken Phantasm + Saber pouring an assload of mana and overloading an already overloaded Caliburn + Caliburn's history boost = one dead Berserker


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## Nimademe (May 11, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> Zero/Berserker makes every weapon he wields a C-Rank Noble Phantasm, unless they already have a higher rank before hand. Therefore it wouldn't hurt Berserker.



D-Rank, and if he takes a Noble Phantasm that has a higher rank it retains it.


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## skiboydoggy (May 11, 2010)

Nimademe said:


> D-Rank, and if he takes a Noble Phantasm that has a higher rank it retains it.


You're right, D-Rank it is.


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## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

> Hulk puts the hurt on people who have actually destroyed planets and not claimed via hyperbole bullcrap that they can or could resist it. Like Drax, the Surfer, Thor, and more.


Which is an entirely different point from what I was correcting


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## Devil Kings (May 11, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Hulk puts the hurt on people who have actually destroyed planets and not claimed via hyperbole bullcrap that they can or could resist it. Like Drax, the Surfer, Thor, and more.




That's not the Hulk, but Rulk. One of the worse shit ever written.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 11, 2010)

Hulk was able to beat people like Onslaught, and Onslaught pretty much solo all of Marvel Earth. From what I have seen from Berserker, The Hulk should beat him just fine.


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## Raigen (May 11, 2010)

Hulk fought Drax way back when Drax was still a tard. And it was the more intelligent Savage Hulk too. Hulk even admitted Drax was stronger. Hulk having fought Drax, Thor, Surfer and others is long-standing. It's not what Rulk did, because Rulk is bogus and useless, especially since he was, in fact, beaten by Hulk in the end.

Also, if it's corrected that Godhand only pertains to upping his resistance to Noble Phantasms after he's been hit with them, then Berserker is screwed since Hulk uses no such thing. Hulk doesn't need it. He's physically hundreds of times stronger than Berserker.


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## Cypher0120 (May 11, 2010)

Wouldn't the Hulk's punch be able to...oh, I don't know...take off more than twelve lives if it connected?


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## Raigen (May 11, 2010)

If Hulk seriously put his strength into a punch, Berserker would not only be in pieces, he'd be reduced to paste that would scatter across the country. Or he could just lob Berserker into space and be done with him.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 11, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Hulk fought Drax way back when Drax was still a tard. And it was the more intelligent Savage Hulk too. Hulk even admitted Drax was stronger. Hulk having fought Drax, Thor, Surfer and others is long-standing. It's not what Rulk did, because Rulk is bogus and useless, especially since he was, in fact, beaten by Hulk in the end.
> 
> Also, if it's corrected that Godhand only pertains to upping his resistance to Noble Phantasms after he's been hit with them, then Berserker is screwed since Hulk uses no such thing. Hulk doesn't need it. He's physically hundreds of times stronger than Berserker.



IIRC Doesn't Rin kill Berserker once with her Jewels? And they're not conceptual weapons, nor Noble Phantasms and it counted as a kill.


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## Raigen (May 11, 2010)

She did. Took off a bit of his face and head, and it killed Berserker enough to drop a life. It was nothing spectacular. Didn't even wreck the area around him.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 11, 2010)

> Basically once Berserker has developed an immunity to it, or is immune to it in the first place, it doesn't matter how strong an attack is.



So he is like Doomsday huh? Has Berserker shown the power to be immunity to Planet busting attacks?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 11, 2010)

Raigen said:


> She did. Took off a bit of his face and head, and it killed Berserker enough to drop a life. It was nothing spectacular. Didn't even wreck the area around him.



You know what that means? He gets killed by Hulk, once or twice maybe and in turn becomes immune to his attacks for the rest of the fight. Berserker is like Mario but with God Mode after losing a life.


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## Raigen (May 11, 2010)

I thought it was only a higher resistance to that form of attack? Hell it's been shown that no matter how tough Dday got, he could still be punished physically. I'm not seeing a difference here. So Hulk kills him with one finger, then two...then three...then four...you see where I'm goin with this?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 11, 2010)

Raigen said:


> I thought it was only a higher resistance to that form of attack? Hell it's been shown that no matter how tough Dday got, he could still be punished physically. I'm not seeing a difference here. So Hulk kills him with one finger, then two...then three...then four...you see where I'm goin with this?



Berserker has 13 lives. 12 with God Hand and 1 with his intial life. He becomes immune to the same attack or weapon used. Hulk has like one type of attack. Unless by some miracle that Hulk starts smacking Berserker with furniture or lamp posts or what ever he can get his hands on. Berserker is gonna be a durable bastard to deal with.


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## Raigen (May 11, 2010)

Berserker doesn't become immune, he becomes more resistant. It won't matter. Nothing here matters, cause nothing stops Hulk from punting his ass into space. BFR FTW


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 11, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Berserker doesn't become immune, he becomes more resistant. It won't matter. Nothing here matters, cause nothing stops Hulk from punting his ass into space. BFR FTW



I'd admit, that would work. Or into the sun.


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## Raigen (May 11, 2010)

Naw, sun-chucking is Sentry's bit.


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## Crimson King (May 11, 2010)

ITT raigen showing us he knows nothing about F/sn


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 11, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> F/SN relies a lot on data sheets, words of god and exposition to establish their power because most of the weapon involved are conceptual.
> 
> Taking an 'only feats' approach without taking into account God Hand's concept will net you very weird/incorrect result, as a NP below A rank wont hurt him despite a C-rank NP already has equivalent power to an A-rank attack, but a block razing attack or just a simple stab can kill him if it's above A rank.



I'm sorry but that wont cut it..the only thing that matters is feats


Hulk for his part has torn reality asunder with his blows...and messed with time streams when sufficiently enraged

beserker by lack of feats should loose this

debating based off statements and databooks then going "urr sorry but it relies mostly on this" does not cut it here in the OBD for any..other verse why should we suddenly hand wave doctrine..for fatestay night


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## Knight (May 11, 2010)

I agree with IWD, all these statement and datasheets seem iffy.


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## Cypher0120 (May 11, 2010)

Only unless the datasheets contradict what the characters themselves can do.

Removing them means, taking off the canon, and it hasn't exactly contradicted itself specifically yet.

Of course, that's not going to stop Hulk from doing Jubileus-sun-punching Berserker into the sun....


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## Raigen (May 11, 2010)

It says planet-level durability. I've yet to see anyone in F/S have anything close to continent busting. In fact, the best ever indicated was city-busting. So Berserker getting planet-level with Godhand is purely hyperbole. In fact, a lot of what's said in the data sheets is hyperbole as much of it has no backing whatsoever.


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## MKS (May 11, 2010)

I don't understand, doesn't being punched into paste and decapitated count as two separate and completely different kinds of death?

Hulk wins regardless, but I don't find it that hard for the Hulk to kill him in seven different ways.


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## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> beserker by lack of feats should loose this
> 
> debating based off statements and databooks then going "urr sorry but it relies mostly on this" does not cut it here in the OBD for any..other verse why should we suddenly hand wave doctrine..for fatestay night



Now, I was unaware that the OBD suddenly stopped accepting databooks and Word of God as proof, especially when it hasn't been contradicted by the work itself. 

Please tell me, when was this?



Raigen said:


> It says planet-level durability. I've yet to see anyone in F/S have anything close to continent busting. In fact, the best ever indicated was city-busting. So Berserker getting planet-level with Godhand is purely hyperbole. In fact, a lot of what's said in the data sheets is hyperbole as much of it has no backing whatsoever.



A lot of what's said in the data sheets has never been contradicted, so it's not 'hyperbole' just 'not demonstrated.'

Do you know what the difference is?


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## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Now, I was unaware that the OBD suddenly stopped accepting databooks and Word of God as proof, especially when it hasn't been contradicted by the work itself.
> 
> Please tell me, when was this?



But that doesn't work you all say  the same thing "because Word of God   hasn't been contradicted by the work itself."

But the fact is that in all the VN it has never been shown that any servant or any weapon is able to bust a planet or have planetary lvl durability just because it says anti-world doesn't mean it can bust a planet for that you need feats if you don't have them then he can't is as simple as that.

Is like DB Freezer can bust planets and Goku, Vegeta and co are way but way stronger than him so therefore we know they can bust planets with ease too, but Cell on the other hand said he can bust a solar system and that doesn't contradict nothing in DB but we know he can't because he didn't show it, he doesn't have feats for it.


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## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> But that doesn't work you all say  the same thing "because Word of God   hasn't been contradicted by the work itself."
> 
> But the fact is that in all the VN it has never been shown that any servant or any weapon is able to bust a planet or have planetary lvl durability just because it says anti-world doesn't mean it can bust a planet for that you need feats if you don't have them then he can't is as simple as that.



1. I wasn't talking about F/SN I was speaking in general.

2. That's not true, and has never been true.

3. Databooks and Word of God is different than in-text examples.



> Is like DB Freezer can bust planets and Goku, Vegeta and co are way but way stronger than him so therefore we know they can bust planets with ease too, but Cell on the other hand said he can bust a solar system and that doesn't contradict nothing in DB but we know he can't because he didn't show it, he doesn't have feats for it.



This is a case of you not knowing what you're talking about.

Freeza had a technique that was specifically designed to destroy a planet, Kid Buu was the first to actually destroy a planet with pure power, and Majin Buu was only capable of destroying 1/10th of the world's population with a direct Kamehameha. 

There are many things wrong with Cell's statement, you just know the simplified argument which is how you can pretend to know what you're talking about.


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## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> 1. I wasn't talking about F/SN I was speaking in general.
> 
> 2. That's not true, and has never been true.
> 
> 3. Databooks and Word of God is different than in-text examples.



First what's not true, and has never been true?

and second you are wrong you can't use "Databooks and Word of God is different than in-text examples" to say is fair game whatever the VN say, if you don't have feats it doesn't work simple, for example IIRC Luke Skywalker feats come from novels but they specified the feats so they can be use or like Achilles of  Illium/Olmypos but that isn't the case of FSN it only says anti-world.



> -Snip-



So you are saying in DB they can't bust planets?..right.



> There are many things wrong with Cell's statement, you just know the simplified argument which is how you can pretend to know what you're talking about.




Nop in fact is more feasible to think Cell can bust a solar system (even when it doesn't count because he has no feats) that to think or assure that in FSN they can bust planets just  "because Word of God hasn't been contradicted by the work itself."


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## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> First what's not true, and has never been true?



That authorial statements don't count as feats.



> and second you are wrong you can't use "Databooks and Word of God is different than in-text examples" to say is fair game whatever the VN say, if you don't have feats it doesn't work simple, in fact if the VN had  in-text examples like "the weapon was fired and it destroyed the planet" then yeah that is enough proof but it doesn't have nothing like that it only says anti-world but without any feat at all.



No, it is written "Ea is the sword that cut the planet apart." 

It is not written in the VN, but stated on both the status page, and explicitly by the author in the Databook, both are legitimate sources, you either misread people's posts or are purposely changing up words to make it seem like everyone else is making invalid points.



> So you are saying in DB they can't bust planets?..right.



No, I said no one before Kid Buu did it with sheer power.

If that was supposed to be a clever attempt to put words in my mouth, then you're very good at debating incorrectly.



> Nop in fact is more feasible to think Cell can bust a solar system (even when it doesn't count because he has no feats) that to think or assure that in FSN they can bust planets just  "because Word of God hasn't been contradicted by the work itself."



We believe that in FSN, a single character, with a single weapon, can bust a planet because the creator stated that Ea was the sword that "cut apart planets."


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## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> No, it is written "Ea is the sword that cut the planet apart."
> 
> It is not written in the VN, but stated on both the status page, and explicitly by the author in the Databook, both are legitimate sources, you either misread people's posts or are purposely changing up words to make it seem like everyone else is making invalid points.



Yeah and Amateratsu is as hot as the sun is a label nothing more, again do you have feats of anyone in FSN busting a planet?.. no you don't then he can't if you don't have feats it doesn't work simple, for example IIRC Luke Skywalker feats come from novels but they specified the feats so they can be use or like Achilles of Illium/Olmypos but that isn't the case of FSN it only says anti-world and Ea is the sword that cut the planet apart....yeah that doesn't prove anything.

Here is a good example

Hrist




> We believe that in FSN, a single character, with a single weapon, can bust a planet because the creator stated that Ea was the sword that "cut apart planets."



Doesn't work Kishimoto stated that Amateratsu is as hot as the sun but we know it isn't and again do you have feats of anyone in FSN busting a planet?

and if you say "because Word of God hasn't been contradicted by the work itself."  then you are wrong it doesn't prove he can.


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## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> Yeah and Amateratsu is as hot as the sun is a label nothing more,



Except that's been contradicted by the text.

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.



> again do you have feats of anyone in FSN busting a planet?.. no you don't then he can't if you don't have feats it doesn't work simple, for example IIRC Luke Skywalker feats come from novels but they specified the feats so they can be use or like Achilles of Illium/Olmypos but that isn't the case of FSN it only says anti-world and Ea is the sword that cut the planet apart....*yeah that doesn't prove anything*.



Well, apart from proving that the creator says the sword can cut apart planets.



> Here is a good example
> 
> Hrist



I know what a feat is.



> Doesn't work Kishimoto stated that Amateratsu is as hot as the sun but we know it isn't and again do you have feats of anyone in FSN busting a planet?



Bullshit he did.

Besides, that's been contradicted by the text. Using your logic, I could make the claim that "feats don't count, because there have been inconsistencies before."



> and if you say "because Word of God hasn't been contradicted by the work itself."  then you are wrong it doesn't prove he can.



It does prove he can, because the author of the work, an omniscient narrator, is stating that he can.

It's no different than any caption you read, or picture you look at. It's all created by the author and should be regarded equally.


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## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Except that's been contradicted by the text.
> 
> Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.



And again you fail to understand the point, just to suit your argument.



> Well, apart from proving that the creator says the sword can cut apart planets.



Yeah the creator said it and that proves that he can why? o Word of God....yeah no again do you have feats of anyone in FSN busting a planet?..you know it isn't hard you say that you know what a feat is but it seems you don't



> I know what a feat is.



I doubt it.



> Bullshit he did.



No he didn't



> Besides, that's been contradicted by the text. Using your logic, I could make the claim that "feats don't count, because there have been inconsistencies before."



And I am the one who doesn't know what I am talking about..nop I think that is you.




> *It does prove he can, because the author of the work, an omniscient narrator, is stating that he can.*



By this logic the Kyubi can create Tsunamis with his tails.



> It's no different than any caption you read, or picture you look at. It's all created by the author and should be regarded equally.



Nop because no one in FSN has ever shown to be able to bust a planet not even close this "anti-world and Ea is the sword that cut the planet apart" doesn't prove nothing is nothing more than narrative Hyperbole.


----------



## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

> Also, if it's corrected that Godhand only pertains to upping his resistance to Noble Phantasms after he's been hit with them, then Berserker is screwed since Hulk uses no such thing. Hulk doesn't need it. He's physically hundreds of times stronger than Berserker.
> __________________


No, it negate all attack below a certain rank, and give Berserker immunity to a mean of killing after he was killed once
rank does not equal destructive power
Someone mentioned Rin's gems, which was underwhelming, yes, Rin gems, which can only total a block each, is weak by Noble Phantasm standard. C-rank Noble Phantasm (Saber's invisible sword mode strikes and Archer's twin blades) already have similar force packed within each strike.
However, Berserker was killed by the gems and those swords couldn't do anything to him because the gems smash was a normal/magical attack of rank A, and the swords were Noble Phantasm of rank C.

If we go by feats only, yes, Berserker lose horribly
If we go by what Berserker could actually do as per the author and the VN intended, he most probably will loose, have a tiny chance of draw by surviving, and has no chance of winning.


> yeah no again do you have feats of anyone in FSN busting a planet?


Simple, the answer is, if someone dare to try bust a planet, they invite tons of defend mechanisms of both Gaia and Alaya on them



> Yeah the creator said it and that proves that he can why? o Word of God


Words of God can only be dismissed by direct contradiction in the show
If it wasn't, you cant dismiss it as not credible, only ignore it if the rules dictate 'feats only'


> Nop because no one in FSN has ever shown to be able to bust a planet not even close this "anti-world and Ea is the sword that cut the planet apart" doesn't prove nothing is nothing more than narrative Hyperbole.


Except 'planet busting' was not in narrative, but from what was supposed to be neutral/objective data


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 11, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Only unless the datasheets contradict what the characters themselves can do.
> 
> Removing them means, taking off the canon, and it hasn't exactly contradicted itself specifically yet.
> .



I would certainly think that its totally fine discounting something that is for all intents and purposes something that gives a free pass to a character to shrugg off anything, a canonified no limits fallacy as it where



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Now, I was unaware that the OBD suddenly stopped accepting databooks and Word of God as proof, especially when it hasn't been contradicted by the work itself.
> 
> Please tell me, when was this?



I've never seen any statement being given a free pass...or any word of god out a databook been given a free pass..with out being put under some kind of test or scrutiny

saying this dude can come back from anything and not be effected..is a bit much

especially when he;s up against a guy as broken as the hulk


----------



## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> Simple, the answer is, if someone dare to try bust a planet, they invite tons of defend mechanisms of both Gaia and Alaya on them



Simple that doesn't prove he can bust a planet either.



> Words of God can only be dismissed by direct contradiction in the show
> If it wasn't, you cant dismiss it as not credible, only ignore it if the rules dictate 'feats only'



Nop because you are giving Word of God a free pass and that doesn't work not when in the VN the highest destructive capacity has been of City lvl and then you can't say he can bust a planet just "because Word of God hasn't been contradicted by the work itself."  and the say this is true "anti-world and Ea is the sword that cut the planet apart" yeah it doesn't contradict nothing but it doesn't prove that he can either.



> Except 'planet busting' was not in narrative, but from what was supposed to be neutral/objective data



And because is neutral/objective data is true even when it doesn't have any feat at all?..yeah no.


----------



## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

> I would certainly think that its totally fine discounting something that is for all intents and purposes something that gives a free pass to a character to shrugg off anything, a canonified no limits fallacy as it where


No, God Hand does not give Berserker a no limit fallacy *shrug off anything*
It, after all, can't shrug of A-rank or above attacks, and can be by-pass with concept loop holes or beings that flat out ignore concept.
And Hulk probably will get A++ or EX just for his normal attack, if only because it can mess with soul and intangible things despite being only a physical punch, which, coincidentally, is very similar to ORT, a top-tier character in Nasuverse, whose mere physical blows are considered conceptual.
Which is why the question I raised was 'does Hulk get more than, say, 3 different attacks?' not 'Can Hulk get pass God Hand?'


> Nop because you are giving Word of God a free pass and that doesn't work not when in the VN the highest destructive capacity has been of City lvl and then you can't say he can bust a planet just "because Word of God hasn't been contradicted by the work itself." and the say this is true "anti-world and Ea is the sword that cut the planet apart" yeah it doesn't contradict nothing but it doesn't prove that he can either.


If that was mentioned as a joke, a small note, or narrative like 'one swing of it tail level mountain and create tsunami, I wouldn't give it much credibility, just like 'Amaterasu flame is as hot as the sun'.
But it was consistently listed as such in all material in which it was mentioned, not once.


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> And again you fail to understand the point, just to suit your argument.



Says the man who doesn't even understand his own argument.



> *Yeah the creator said it and that proves that he can why?* o Word of God....yeah no again do you have feats of anyone in FSN busting a planet?..you know it isn't hard you say that you know what a feat is but it seems you don't



Because clearly the guy who created the universe and all its workings has a better idea of what a person or weapon's limits are than you do.



> I doubt it.



Well, then maybe you should start defining it.



> No he didn't



I'm glad you're agreeing with me. But more likely you didn't even realize that you said the exact opposite already and were just dropping clever one-liners to my responses.



> And I am the one who doesn't know what I am talking about..nop I think that is you.



See above.



> By this logic the Kyubi can create Tsunamis with his tails.



It's definitely not illogical considering it dwarfs mountains.



> Nop because no one in FSN has ever shown to be able to bust a planet not even close this "anti-world and Ea is the sword that cut the planet apart" doesn't prove nothing is nothing more than narrative Hyperbole.



So you've just gone straight into ad nauseum tactics and are no longer interested in debating?

Concession accepted.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I've never seen any statement being given a free pass...or any word of god out a databook been given a free pass..with out being put under some kind of test or scrutiny
> 
> saying this dude can come back from anything and not be effected..is a bit much
> 
> especially when he;s up against a guy as broken as the hulk



Considering the h4x that this universe usually displays, folding of space/time, reversal of causality, conceptual removal and destruction, it isn't a stretch at all.

He can't come back from anything, but he can come back from anything less than being destroyed at a conceptual level. As long as Herakles the mythological figure exists as an idea, the Servant Berserker does as well. So the only way to kill him in one shot is to erase his conception, otherwise he'll regenerate.

But I'm not talking about that, I was talking about the general idea of data books and word of God, and those are only put under serious scrutiny when they conflict with actual source material.


----------



## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> If that was mentioned as a joke, a small note, or narrative like 'one swing of it tail level mountain and create tsunami, I wouldn't give it much credibility,
> But it was consistently listed as such in all material in which it was mentioned, not once.



An *the author of the work, an omniscient narrator, is stating that he can. * and so far we haven't see the Kyubi so Word Of God says is true.

*That is using that logic which is totally wrong*


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

Do you have proof that Kyubi couldn't cause a Tsunami with a swing of its tail? 

If you look at its size, it's more than likely true.


----------



## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

> An the author of the work, an omniscient narrator, is stating that he can.  and so far we haven't see the Kyubi so Word Of God says is true.


If that was mentioned as a joke, a small note, or narrative like 'one swing of it tail level mountain and create tsunami', I wouldn't give it much credibility, just like 'Amaterasu flame is as hot as the sun'.
But it was consistently listed as such in all material in which it was mentioned, not once.
copy and paste from last post, just in case


----------



## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Says the man who doesn't even understand his own argument.



Nop I know what I am saying is you who use things to suit your argument.



> Because clearly the guy who created the universe and all its workings has a better idea of what a person or weapon's limits are than you do.



Yeah that is the same thing you have been saying but with different words and still doesn't prove anything.



> Well, then maybe you should start defining it.



Already have.



> It's definitely not illogical considering it dwarfs mountains.



O so the Kyubi can create tsunamis with his tails 

Yeah no, no feats then he can't do it.




> So you've just gone straight into ad nauseum tactics and are no longer interested in debating?
> 
> Concession accepted EA can't bust a planet



Yeah Concession accepted you don't have a single feat of anyone being capable of busting a planet in FSN more than "Word of God" therefore they can't.


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> Nop I know what I am saying is you who use things to suit your argument.



Of course I'm using things that suit my argument. What the fuck do you think a debate is?

There's more to a debate than citing tradition and backfalling onto logical fallacies to prove a point. 

When you're in a debate, you use logical inferences, and proof to support your case. Clearly I'm not going to bring up things that don't "suit my argument."



> Yeah that is the same thing you have been saying but with different words and still doesn't prove anything.



It's the same thing I've been saying and your only response was "No." 

If the creator says that a character can do X, how is it any different than the character doing X?

Answer the question, or concede. You won't.



> Already have.



Bullshit.



> O so the Kyubi can create tsunamis with his tails



Yes.



> Yeah Concession accepted you don't have a single feat of anyone being capable of busting a planet in FSN more than "Word of God" therefore they can't.



Why is the creator not a viable source?

I'm listening.


----------



## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> -snip-



And again you fail to understand the point, just to suit your argument.

this is what I said a very different thing from what you are saying now.




> It's the same thing I've been saying and your only response was "No."
> 
> If the creator says that a character can do X, how is it any different than the character doing X?
> 
> Answer the question, or concede. You won't.



I have being saying no since you don't understand at all.

Again it doesn't work if If the creator says that a character can do X, but he doesn't do it at all in any of the VN and it doesn't even need to be character X if character Y does it but he is weaker then X can probably do it too, but not X, Y, Z etc do anything the creator says they can do, therefore they can't get it?

Now If the creator says that a character can do X, and character X does it then hell yeah he can do it.



> Yes.



Sadly no, he doesn't have feats then he can't 




> Why is the creator not a viable source?
> 
> I'm listening.



Is not that the creator isn't a viable source the thing here is that he says they can do X thing but they don't show not even once being capable of doing it then they can get it?

Is the same as above if he says they can do X thing and they do it then they can.


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 11, 2010)

Actually character statements are viable...so long as they don;t contradict the story...AFK is not wrong there.

Also while it isn't shown that the Kyuubi can create tsunami's it is still something plausible...however with no shown feat of it doing so...it's a touchy subject, meaning it's something that should be left alone until Kyuubi has some reliable feats outside of the narrative in the first chapter.

Also so what if the way she's dbeating is done to suit her argument...I don't understand your complaint, especially considering that whenever anybody debates they'll shape they're opinion so it benifits they're argument more.


----------



## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

Again, either ignore material, source books and words of god per 'feats only' rule or use them unless something in the show directly contradict that.
You can't just palm them as 'not credible' when they are not a joke, a narrative, a passing comment or contradicted by the series itself, but a consistent classification in all materials in which it was mentioned.

It's like saying Note-era Knights normal blows aren't Nuclear Bomb level in destructive power and Ado Edem's Slash Emperor cant cut things bigger than city size target or can't grow large at the speed of thought because those were just info dump and wasn't directly shown


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 11, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> Again, either ignore material, source books and words of god per 'feats only' rule or use them
> You can't just palm them as 'not credible' when they are not a joke, a narrative, a passing comment but a consistent classification in all material in which it was mentioned.
> 
> It's like saying Note-era Knight normal blows aren't Nuclear Bomb level in destructive power and Ado Edem's Slash Emperor cant cut things bigger than city size target or can't grow large at the speed of thought because those were just info dump and wasn't directly shown?



It doesn't work like that, source books and author statements can be used so long as they don't contradict the original source material. we can't use the Data books info on Ameterasu for example because it contradicts the manga itself.


----------



## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

> It doesn't work like that, source books and author statements can be used so long as they don't contradict the original source material. we can't use the Data books info on Ameterasu for example because it contradicts the manga itself.


I forgot to include that, and edited it in before your post, and I kept mentioning that before that post too.
Thank for reminding anyway.


> and this FSN being planet busters..is..just what the fuck is that? is that even backed up by feats at all? or do you only have a statement for that
> __________________


@TIW: No, there is one single planet busting weapon in F/SN (so not planet buster*s*), and about two in all of Nasuverse.
It's also, just a weapon, like a human having access to enough Nuclear bombs to wipe all lives on Earth, does not make that particular human impressive by himself.

A 100% Arcueid/Arche-Type Earth, or any Celestial Beings for that matter, will just waste him before he could ever hope to charge EA to full power.
Heck, he could charge it to full power, and Avalon will just shrug it off, being a Koh Ou Yoku-lite.

Then there's Gaia and Alaya, which will send their quadrillion (exaggeration) defend mechanisms (which range from force of nature to heroic spirits without a personality and with limitless prana to global scale limited reality warper)


Gil's actual trump card, most of the time, is GOB, far less destructive but far more versatile.


----------



## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Horrible English.



haha yeah use my Horrible English hahaha.

Maybe you don't see why your logical steps are incorrect. 



> I'll try and make it more clear.
> 
> You say the creator making a statement isn't a feat unless it's also shown. I ask why. You say the creator making a statement isn't a feat unless it's also shown. I again, ask why. You reply because if a creator doesn't show a feat, but that same omniscient creator says that they character is able to, that character can't, because you know more about the work of fiction than the creator. I tell you that's bullshit. You say I purposely don't get it to further serve my argument.
> 
> ...



And all of this is Bullshit let me put it clear for you since you have problems:



> You say the creator making a statement isn't a feat unless it's also shown. I ask why



*Answer:*

Because x,y,z etc character didn't show to be able to do it.



> but that same omniscient creator says that they character is able to



*Answer:*

And it doesn't prove he can because is just Narrative.



> that character can't



*Answer:*

Because x,y,z etc character didn't show to be able to do it And it doesn't prove he can because is just Narrative.



> because you know more about the work of fiction than the creator.



*Answer:*

Clearly he knows more than I but I can assure they can't bust planets in a debate because x,y,z etc character didn't show to be able to do it And it doesn't prove he can because is just Narrative.




> You say I purposely don't get it to further serve my argument.



*Answer:*

And that is what you are doing.



> No, he has the feat. The creator said that he can. The creator, who made the character, weapon, storyline, and all feats stated that this is something he can do.
> 
> You say without feats they can't, however you don't provide a reason. *You are denying evidence because it was not present in the story*.




Do I really need to explain you how confuse and wrong you are?




> No, they are not the same thing.
> 
> However, you have not given a reason as to why the creator's statement isn't valid proof that they can.
> 
> In fact, you've backtracked and stated that the creator is indeed a viable source.



Nop I have given you enough reasons and I didn't backtracked I clearly said:



> Is not that the creator isn't a viable source he thing here is that he says they can do X thing but they don't show not even once being capable of doing it then they can't get it?
> 
> Is the same as above if he says they can do X thing and they do it then they can.



See how I didn't.



> F/SN has one planet buster, and yes, no one actually busted a planet. The author simply said that he could.
> 
> If you have a reason as to why that isn't ample proof, please explain, because so far, you've done a lot of bitching, but not a lot of explaining.



Because he never busted a planet or showed to be able to bust one?

come on you argument is getting ridiculous this isn't hard to understand.


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

> Clearly he knows more than I but I can assure they can't bust planets in a debate because x,y,z etc character didn't show to be able to do it And it doesn't prove he can because is just Narrative.



You said that, and trust me, you repeated that.

It is your only point, and it has no backing.

I ask why and you repeat that, I ask you to clarify, and you repeat that.

'Why' does not mean repeat, it means why.

Saying the Narrative doesn't prove it to be true without any explanation is bullshit.



> Do I really need to explain you how confuse and wrong you are?



Yes, you fucking do, it's been a round-robin post off, and you're just now realizing you need to tell me why I'm wrong?


----------



## Crimson King (May 11, 2010)

Wait, if you're saying the stuff listed in the datasheet are hyperbole, are you actually saying Lancer's Gae Bolg effect is hyperbole as well?


----------



## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> You said that, and trust me, you repeated that.
> 
> It is your only point, and it has no backing.
> 
> ...



please the whole debate you have been saying the same shit over and over you don't want to accept any argument any reason, I even explained to you very carefully and still you didn't want to accept it.

Narrative isn't proof if you don't have feats to back it up it isn't hard, hell I even show you an example with Achilles you just don't want to understand is a simple as that.

You even said the Kyubi can create Tsunami with his tails just to suit your argument of narrative being enough proof do you see how wrong you are?



Crimson King said:


> Wait, if you're saying the stuff listed in the datasheet are hyperbole, are you actually saying Lancer's Gae Bolg effect is hyperbole as well?



Great example in this case is true because in the VN we saw the effect how the weapon worked.


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> please the whole debate you have been saying the same shit over and over you don't want to accept any argument any reason, I even explained to you very carefully and still you didn't want to accept it.



I didn't accept it because you were wrong.

You were illogical in your steps, you didn't provide any reasoning, and you backtracked or mocked any flaw in your open ended points.



> Narrative isn't proof if you don't have feats to back it up it isn't hard, hell I even show you an example with Achilles you just don't want to understand is a simple as that.



You didn't show shit, you showed a feat, in a novel.

That's not the same as the author stating, in a different work, that it is true.

That is why databooks and the status sheet are correct.

It is different from in-text narrative, and they are most certainly not hyperbole.



> You even said the Kyubi can create Tsunami with his tails just to suit your argument of narrative being enough proof do you see how wrong you are?



Do you have a reason to believe it isn't true?

Even you probably realize by now, that you're in this small little corner where only you agree with yourself because everyone else can see that you've just been going in circles and talking shit for a page.



> Great example in this case is true because in the VN we saw the effect how the weapon worked.



Bullshit we did, we saw a lance bend and hit someone and the narrator explain what happened. 

You just accept that as an example because it makes you seem like you have some credibility.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 11, 2010)

If we based on info from data books, word of god and feats,
I can say someone like Tohno Shiki is planet buster level with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception since he can just find the point of death of the world and stab it. And Ryougi Shiki is universe buster level with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and 3rd personality. We never see them do it but it's not far off based on their feats. Although what bugs me is that word of god says that either Shikis can't kill a Servent. Which I find bull cuz 

A) Servents are still under Gaea and MEoDP can kill anything under Gaea (hence why they can't kill a Type)
B ) Servents are Heroic Spirits and thus magic and Ryougi can kill magic


----------



## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> I didn't accept it because you were wrong.
> 
> You were illogical in your steps, you didn't provide any reasoning, and you backtracked or mocked any flaw in your open ended points.



I did provide  reasoning you are the one that doesn't want to accept them.




> You didn't show shit, you showed a feat, in a novel.
> 
> That's not the same as the author stating, in a different work, that it is true.
> 
> ...



But I did




> Do you have a reason to believe it isn't true?
> 
> Even you probably realize by now, that you're in this small little corner where only you agree with yourself because everyone else can see that you've just been going in circles and talking shit for a page.



And you think because I am the only one debating this I am going to concede with you?

Nah that doesn't work you haven't prove shit and you are the one going in circles and you use that to make me look like I don't know what I am talking about but try again.




> Bullshit we did, we saw a lance bend and hit someone and the narrator explain what happened.



Yeah and I said is a legit feat.



> You just accept that as an example because it makes you seem like you have some credibility.



Because my point is solid unlike yours, you say narrative is enough and I say it isn't becasue narrative alone doesn't prove anything unlike this Gae Bolg example or Berserker God hand but EA busting a planet no becasue aside from narrative you don't have anything else do you?


----------



## Hellspawn28 (May 11, 2010)

Knight said:


> I agree with IWD, all these statement and datasheets seem iffy.



If I'm not mistaken most F/SN feats are based on gameplay mechanics. From what I have seen from Berserker, I doubt he can do anything against the Hulk? Hulk at one point was still able to fight after getting blasted from  Vector. 





> No, I said no one before Kid Buu did it with sheer power.



Freeza held back on the attack on Namke, and it was stated in his mecha form that he can one shot the Earth. It's possible #16-18, and all forms of Cell can do it via powerscaling.


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> I did provide  reasoning you are the one that doesn't want to accep them.



Faulty reasoning isn't usually accepted.

I don't know why you expect it to be.



> But I did



I say that an in-text narrative is different than a Databook Word of God, and your response is "But I did."

This is a legitimate question here, because I honestly don't know the answer. 

Can you read? Like, at all?



> Amnd you think because I am the only one debating this I am going to concede with you?
> 
> Nah that doesn't work you haven't prove shit and you are the one going in circles and you use that to make me look like I don't know waht I am talking about but try again.



I don't need to prove shit.

You say that statements are never acceptable as feats, so because you make the absolute statement, the burden of proof is up to you to prove it.

I've not been making an effort to prove it, because I'm not suggesting there's a problem.



> Yeah and I said is a legit feat.



Showing obvious hypocrisies.



> Because my point is solid unlike yours, you say narrative is enough and I say it isn't becasue narrative alone doesn't prove anything unlike this Gae Bolg example or Berserker God hand but EA busting a planet no becasue aside from narrative you don't have anything eles do you?



Gae Bolg was shown to stab people, and Word of God says it reverses Causality.

Ea was shown to blow shit up, and Word of God says it can blow a planet apart. 

There is literally no difference.



Hellspawn28 said:


> If I'm not mistaken most F/SN feats are based on gameplay mechanics. From what I have seen from Berserker, I doubt he can do anything against the Hulk? Hulk at one point was still able to fight after getting blasted from  Vector.



No F/SN is a book, there are no gameplay mechanics.

No, Berserker can't do anything against Hulk, and Hulk can't kill him, that's the stalemate.



> Freeza held back on the attack on Namke, and *it was stated in his mecha form that he can one shot the Earth.* It's possible #16-18, and all forms of Cell can do it via powerscaling.



The current argument is that statements aren't valid, even if they're obviously true. That's why I gave the example.

Freeza was able to do that because he had a special move designed to destroy planets though.


----------



## Crimson King (May 11, 2010)

basch71 said:


> If we based on info from data books, word of god and feats,
> I can say someone like Tohno Shiki is planet buster level with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception since he can just find the point of death of the world and stab it. And Ryougi Shiki is universe buster level with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and 3rd personality. We never see them do it but it's not far off based on their feats. Although what bugs me is that word of god says that either Shikis can't kill a Servent. Which I find bull cuz
> 
> A) Servents are still under Gaea and MEoDP can kill anything under Gaea (hence why they can't kill a Type)
> B ) Servents are Heroic Spirits and thus magic and Ryougi can kill magic




Tohno Shiki's head would explode trying to visualize the concept of death for the world.

If Ryougi Shiki killed off enough concepts, she could actually fuck over the universe.

They can't kill servants mostly because the Servants are too fast for them to hit. For Tohno Shiki, trying to visualize the lines of death on a Servant would explode his head.


----------



## Cypher0120 (May 11, 2010)

Ryougi can kill servants. Tagging them is an entirely different story. She could cut the concept of distance before a Servant widens it again though. Maybe if their movement is reinforced by someone else, but they can't do it alone.


----------



## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> I say that an in-text narrative is different than a Databook Word of God, and your response is "But I did."
> 
> This is a legitimate question here, because I honestly don't know the answer.
> 
> Can you read? Like, at all?



Yep now tell me do you know how to read?.. because it seems you don't.



> I don't need to prove shit.
> 
> You say that statements are never acceptable as feats, so because you make the absolute statement, the burden of proof is up to you to prove it.
> 
> I've not been making an effort to prove it, because I'm not suggesting there's a problem.



so because * you* think there isn't any problem with using narrative makes it right? so wrong and for the 154645641651132 time *narrative doesn't work if you don't have feats to back it up so saying EA can bust a planet because Word of God says so is true is wrong because it has never been shown to be able to do it not even close.*



> Showing obvious hypocrisies.



Funny how a legit feat is hypocrisy for you.




> Gae Bolg was shown to stab people, and Word of God says it reverses Causality.



It was shown in the VN:



> This is exemplified in Lancer's fight with Saber, in which Gáe Bolg changed direction at an impossible angle so as to aim for Saber's heart.





> Ea was shown to blow shit up, and Word of God says it can blow a planet apart.
> 
> There is literally no difference.



Bad logic so because it can blow shit up it can bust a planet?

there is a huge but huge difference, but then again you are going to say it isn't any different.



> The current argument is that statements aren't valid, even if they're obviously true. That's why I gave the example.
> 
> Freeza was able to do that because he had a special move designed to destroy planets though.



Nop the argument is that statements alone aren't valid but in Frezza's case he has feats of busting a planet so try again.


----------



## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

> I can say someone like Tohno Shiki is planet buster level with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception since he can just find the point of death of the world and stab it. And Ryougi Shiki is universe buster level with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and 3rd personality. We never see them do it but it's not far off based on their feats. Although what bugs me is that word of god says that either Shikis can't kill a Servent. Which I find bull cuz
> 
> A) Servents are still under Gaea and MEoDP can kill anything under Gaea (hence why they can't kill a Type)
> B ) Servents are Heroic Spirits and thus magic and Ryougi can kill magic


Wrong
1. Shiki will burst his brain trying to planet bust. Theoretically he can if he has something like, a cosmic brain, but he's a human, thus he cant. It's been shown that the lines and dots Shiki see on the ground are just the dead of that particular area.
2. Ryougi is but a human. She can kill abstract concepts, but she still need to reach and slash the target in the line, and a Servant can just kill her before she can manage that. Their martial prowess are just too different. 'Can kill' does not equal 'can beat'. Shiki Tohno can kill Ciel, but in a fight Ciel will trash Shiki, Void Ryogi vs Servants is the same.
3. Ryougi cant universe burst, her power come from being connected to the Root/Akasha Record that control the universe, fat chance it will allow her to do that. To put it in Slayer's term, it's like asking "let me borrow your power to kill you"
4. Neither of them, even Void Ryogi, can kill Celestial Beings, per Words of God, as Celestial Beings does not have a concept of Death (and Type Venus just refused to die even after she got the concept of Death shoved down her throat by Black Barrel), they can only be rendered harmless by physical destruction, not killed, unless, of course, if we say 'word of gods doesn't count', again.
5. Ryogi never killed Mahou (magic), only Majutsu (magecraft). Servants are created using a lite version of 3rd Mahou. She theoretically can kill mahou however.


----------



## Cypher0120 (May 11, 2010)

Tobiah, your arguments sound much worse than the other people who are debating. I'd say you're more of an anti-Nasu person than anyone performing legitimate arguments unlike Watchdog who actually has proper debating skills. 




Riverlia said:


> 3. Ryougi cant universe burst, her power come from being connected to the Root/Akasha Record that control the universe, fat chance it will allow her to do that. To put it in Slayer's term, it's like asking "let me borrow your power to kill you"
> 4. Neither of them, even Void Ryogi, can kill Celestial Beings, per Words of God, as Celestial Beings does not have a concept of Death (and Type Venus just refused to die even after she got the concept of Death shoved down her throat by Black Barrel), they can only be rendered harmless by physical destruction, not killed, unless, of course, if we say 'word of gods doesn't count', again.



Ryougi may not be able to destroy the universe, but she can still recreate reality through the destruction of anything else underneath it. It won't get rid of the current universe, but more of rewriting the rules after certain concepts get destroyed. Or something like that.


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## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Tobiah, your arguments sound much worse than the other people who are debating. I'd say you're more of an anti-Nasu person than anyone performing legitimate arguments unlike Watchdog who actually has proper debating skills.



Of course they sound worse to you and IWD has the same point I have.

And actually I like FSN a lot but that doesn't mean I am going to wank them.


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## Azure Flame Fright (May 11, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> Yep now tell me do you know how to read?.. because it seems you don't.



See, you stealthily avoided the actual problem with your point and instead addressed the fluff of my post.

It's like your an expert at screwing up.



> so because * you* think there isn't any problem with using narrative makes it right? so wrong and for the 154645641651132 time *narrative doesn't work if you don't have feats to back it up so saying EA can bust a planet because Word of God says so is true is wrong because it has never been shown to be able to do it not even close.*



No, not because I think there isn't a problem.

Because you haven't shown a problem using the narrative or Word of God, it is true. 

Shifting the burden of proof is a childish game that anyone can play.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, just because he never tried to bust a planet with it, doesn't mean it can't.

Knowing you, I've probably used too many words for you to understand though.

Basically your argument is full of holes.



> Funny how a legit feat is hypocrisy for you.



You clearly don't know what 'hypocrisy' means if you think one thing can cause hypocrisy.



> It was shown in the VN:



Guess who said the angle was impossible?

Come on, guess.

I bet you can't guess it was the narrator.

Because if it was the narrator, the angle wouldn't be impossible, because they didn't show the angle to be impossible. Right?



> Bad logic so because it can blow shit up it can bust a planet?



Because it can blow up shit and the creator says it can blow up a planet it can.



> there is a huge but huge difference, but then again you are going to say it isn't any different.



It's like you know the flaws in your own argument and you're trying to seem smart by saying I'll point them out.



> Nop the argument is that statements alone aren't valid but in Frezza's case he has feats of busting a planet so try again.



Oh, I see, you think a feat is valid and you ignore all circumstances.

So really, your just the retard on the other side of the feat vs. statement spectrum.

If it was shown than it must be true right? If Freeza busted a planet, than Freeza must always be able to bust a planet, if Cloud tanked a Supernovae from Sephiroth, than he must have Solar System + durability, etc...?


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## Riverlia (May 11, 2010)

> Ryougi may not be able to destroy the universe, but she can still recreate reality through the destruction of anything else underneath it. It won't get rid of the current universe, but more of rewriting the rules after certain concepts get destroyed. Or something like that.



She can kill something inconvenient for her, hence 'rewriting it' in a limited way, like killing 'distance' so she can do something akin to teleport or very fast movement, or kill 'illness' to cure anything you can think of, or even kill 'word' to silence someone or taking back what was said. 
However she can't just mess around with any rule (like, say, changing something's origin recorded in the Record and the fact that it have an end/death, or the fact that her body is just that of a human), because in that case, she would be the Akasha Record and not only a part/avatar of it.

And something without a concept of death is plainly something she cant handle.


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## Big Bοss (May 11, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> No, not because I think there isn't a problem.
> 
> Because you haven't shown a problem using the narrative or Word of God, it is true.
> 
> ...




Please stop do you even read what you write?

That sentence alone is enough he never busted a planet never, no one in FSN did then why do we have to believe it is true?..because Word of God no that doesn't cut it.




> Guess who said the angle was impossible?
> 
> Come on, guess.
> 
> ...



O but in the VN they did show that scene

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSL-SEKpWWs[/YOUTUBE]

Minute 5:05 that is using narrative+feat now you understand?

now do you have somenthing like that whit EA busting a planet?



> Because it can blow up shit and the creator says it can blow up a planet it can.



Bad logic bad logic.




> It's like you know the flaws in your own argument and you're trying to seem smart by saying I'll point them out.



No it is like you realizing you been talking nonsense and you try to point it at me good try.



> Oh, I see, you think a feat is valid and you ignore all circumstances.
> 
> So really, your just the retard on the other side of the feat vs. statement spectrum.
> 
> *If it was shown than it must be true right? If Freeza busted a planet, than Freeza must always be able to bust a planet*,



Yes because he has the feat.



> if Cloud tanked a Supernovae from Sephiroth, than he must have Solar System + durability, etc...?



O you think Sephiroth's attack is a Supernova and that Cloud has supernova durability good for you


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## Cypher0120 (May 11, 2010)

It's important to remember that if you disagree with the Word Of God, there's nothing wrong with writing fan fiction that contradicts it, just don't try to foist your preferred Fanon on fans who acknowledge the official canon or on the actual creator of the work.


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## Azure Flame Fright (May 12, 2010)

Well, I'm done.

The result is clear.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2010)

@Riverlia

1. I'm well aware of Shiki's draw backs to understanding death concepts. But if he had a death wish and tried to planet bust anyway, ain't too far off. And the way the lines work is that all life is set to death one day. The lines and dots are just precursors to that death. The Shikis can kill you prematurely and Tohno's case, erase your existence on top of it.

2. Servents are strong but with everything in favor of them, how the fuck someone like Shiro ( a noob mage with just peak human stats going for him ) can go toe-to-toe with haxx fuckers like Archer, Gilgamesh and Dark Saber? Ability wise, Tohno Shiki and Ryougi are way above Shiro in martial prowess and speed.

3. Akasha is the root of all things in the Universe. Ryougi's 3rd personality is Akasha, which means knowledge of Universal concept of death. Ryougi + MEoDP + access to Akasha = a Universal threat.


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## Big Bοss (May 12, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Well, I'm done.
> 
> The result is clear.



Yeah it is.


----------



## Cypher0120 (May 12, 2010)

It's not like either of your arguments amounted to much in this match.

The best Berserker can hope for is a draw, but even so the Hulk has a more likely chance of decimating him.


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## Crimson King (May 12, 2010)

basch71 said:


> @Riverlia
> 
> 
> 2. Servents are strong but with everything in favor of them, how the fuck someone like Shiro ( a noob mage with just peak human stats going for him ) can go toe-to-toe with haxx fuckers like Archer, Gilgamesh and Dark Saber? Ability wise, Tohno Shiki and Ryougi are way above Shiro in martial prowess and speed.



Eye of the Mind true. Shirou's projection also allows him to take on the attributes of the wielder of the weapons.



Cypher0120 said:


> It's not like either of your arguments amounted to much in this match.
> 
> The best Berserker can hope for is a draw, but even so the Hulk has a more likely chance of *decimating *him.



Hulk will be destroying 10% of Berserker?


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## Cypher0120 (May 12, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Hulk will be destroying 10% of Berserker?



I dunno...destroying reality through Hulk Smash is pretty powerful and may even take off way more than a single life. Or at least Berserker's whole body...


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## Riverlia (May 12, 2010)

> 1. I'm well aware of Shiki's draw backs to understanding death concepts. But if he had a death wish and tried to planet bust anyway, ain't too far off. And the way the lines work is that all life is set to death one day. The lines and dots are just precursors to that death. The Shikis can kill you prematurely and Tohno's case, erase your existence on top of it.


I'm aware of what the Shikis can do
Tohno will burst his brain before he can see the dots.
'Earth' in Nasuverse is not just a lump of rock
He can't even see death on Arc when she's at her peek, until he cut off the power supply from Gaia by killing the area around them, and Gaia used to supply both her and the entire race of True Ancestor.



> 2. Servents are strong but with everything in favor of them, how the fuck someone like Shiro ( a noob mage with just peak human stats going for him ) can go toe-to-toe with haxx fuckers like Archer, Gilgamesh and Dark Saber? Ability wise, Tohno Shiki and Ryougi are way above Shiro in martial prowess and speed.


-PIS (Altered Berserker hesitating when he saw Illya, Altered Saber not using Excalibur, Archer was stated to be at 1/10 of his prime) 
-CIS (Gil was arrogant, Archer stopped when he could block the attack and let Shirou win because he was reminded how beautiful his ideal was) 
-Plot power up and nerfhammer (Learning Cranial Wing Strike from Archer's arm, while Altered Saber is the slowest incarnation of Saber, having a solid D in agility)
-The fact that projection give him the stat boost necessary to use a weapon (like when he was using Berserker's axe-sword, a peek human high schooler cant lift and swing it at hypersonic-god speed)

Normally you don't compare characters using PIS, CIS and plot armor.

And Ryougi may be way above Shirou in martial prowess, but Shiki vs Shirou is close. Words of god is, if the two face each other in prime condition (not counting Satsujinki/Archer), Shiki will win, but will die shortly afterward.


> Akasha is the root of all things in the Universe. Ryougi's 3rd personality is Akasha, which means knowledge of Universal concept of death. Ryougi + MEoDP + access to Akasha = a Universal threat


3rd personality is perma-connected to Akasha, but not Akasha itself.
And Akasha will not allow its avatar to do something it doesn't like.
And Celestial Beings dont even have a concept of Death (and doesn't die even after they get the concept of Death shoved down their throat and their body totally ravaged by Black Barrel)
And a human body only has human speed, human strength, human endurance and human reaction. She has the potential to kill most things in this universe, being a threat to everything, however, is an entirely different story, the fact that her killing is limited to melee range doesn't help


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## skiboydoggy (May 12, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> Please stop do you even read what you write?
> 
> That sentence alone is enough he never busted a planet never, no one in FSN did then why do we have to believe it is true?..because Word of God no that doesn't cut it.



Can you take five steps back and explain why Word of God is insufficient? Because you seem to be going in circles without ever reaching any conclusion. Word of God is essentially an explanation of events and phenomena by the omnipotent and omniscient author of the story in question, and to deny Word of God as standard practice is akin to ignoring the basic opinion of the writer as standard practice, even though he would actually be the one who gives you all the narrative infodumps that explain everything that is actually explained in-story.

According to you, Dumbledore would not be gay, Misato would have shot Kaji, and Nappa would in fact not have a PL of 4000. Just because it wasn't shown explicitly on-screen/in-panel/in-text.



> O but in the VN they did show that scene
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSL-SEKpWWs[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Minute 5:05 that is using narrative+feat now you understand?



I see Gae Bolg bending impossibly. What we can never know is that it reverses causality, that high luck is the only way to dodge it, and that it explicitly always pierces the heart. Similarly, we see Ea shoot out a purple whirlwind, but what is never made certain except in the status screens (not even something as far off as a databook I might add) is that it destroys space time wherever it hits, that it is classified as Anti-World, and that it is in fact capped in its damage if not for Gilgamesh's immense wealth.



> now do you have somenthing like that whit EA busting a planet?



Ea destroys Iskandar's infinite Reality Marble.



> Bad logic bad logic.



No. No.



> No it is like you realizing you been talking nonsense and you try to point it at me good try.







> Yes because he has the feat.



Of not being able to bust a planet until the form after the mecha form. 



> O you think Sephiroth's attack is a Supernova and that Cloud has supernova durability good for you



I need a bigger facepalm.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> "-PIS (Altered Berserker hesitating when he saw Illya, Altered Saber not using Excalibur, Archer was stated to be at 1/10 of his prime)
> -CIS (Gil was arrogant, Archer stopped when he could block the attack and let Shirou win because he was reminded how beautiful his ideal was)
> -Plot power up and nerfhammer (Learning Cranial Wing Strike from Archer's arm, while Altered Saber is the slowest incarnation of Saber, having a solid D in agility)
> -The fact that projection give him the stat boost necessary to use a weapon (like when he was using Berserker's axe-sword, a peek human high schooler cant lift and swing it at hypersonic)"
> ...


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## blueblip (May 12, 2010)

The problem here is that while planet busting hasn't been shown in FSN, it is something that might be probable within the verse.

For the most part, FSN-verse relies on hax more than booms, and considering some of the hax that has been shown in the series...

Berserker can't survive an all out Savage Hulk's punch, but if he does kill Berserker with a punch initially, just punching harder is not going to solve the Hulk's problem here. As said before, Berserker's damage immunity thing is more of a conceptual thing rather than a "he can physically tank this much damage" thing.

Considering the nature of the various other abilities in FSN, it is actually not too far fetched a concept to assume that Berserker's God Hand is actually meant to be a no limit's fallacy with regards to an attack that has killed him before. Remember, just because it might actually be a no limit's fallacy doesn't mean that the FSN verse doesn't have other hax abilities to counter it.


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## Riverlia (May 12, 2010)

> O you think Sephiroth's attack is a Supernova and that Cloud has supernova durability good for you


Funny, this is a in-game artistic feat that *was debunked by words of god*
The producer officially said that it was just an illusion.
I believe he mean this as an example of Word of God trumping visual feat



> So pure dumb luck in Shiro's case. Tohno Shiki and Ryougi Shiki still have a better chance. Future Shiki will be too much for a Servent. Servents, depending on who, are at least equivalent to mid-tier to high-tier Dead Apostles. At that point, Shiki can casually kill a Dead Apostle with little effort.


Not really
Word of God is, Servants are equivalent to *Dead Apostle Ancestor* (DAA-top tier Dead Apostles), and in a combat, baring the inactive and broken one like Zelretch, ORT, Primate Murder or Crimson Moon, 5th HF Servants will have a good fight, with slightly upper hand over Dead Apostle Ancestors team. Mid-tier DA doesn't stand a chance and a high tier's chance is minuscule.

Satsujinki is around Ciel level or stronger, but will have trouble against DAAs like Merem.
The one he killed without much trouble was a Dead Apostle ascended early to the Ancestor seat not because of his power, but because they need a replacement, and he was assassinated, alone, without equipments while he is better at team combat and was famous for collecting powerful artifacts.
Satsujinki is an assassin, and will be broken if he act accordingly, but he wont be as powerful as, say, Saber or Lancer in straight combat (although still effing powerful by human standard)


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## Cypher0120 (May 12, 2010)

What visual feat? I only see an explosion on the Japanese version of Supernova. >_>


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> You say the creator making a statement isn't a feat unless it's also shown. I ask why.



I'll answer this..spoken word means very little when debating fictional characters...a creator can say one thing...and then never  show such power...we are under obligation then to go by the characters consistent feats over his statement

if that happens to depower a verse we like..tough

talk is cheap..actions takes precedent

and I'll talk it a step further..when the character has absolutely no feats to suggest he can do something yet the author says he can...we have two choices: Accept a completely insane statement thats not backed up by anything

or laugh it off
]
that being said I'll make something clear at least for my part: I have no problem taking word of god statements as truth..when their at the very least backed up by some feats suggesting that such a thing claimed can be done is all






Azure Flame Kite said:


> No one said, or thinks he can defeat the Hulk.
> 
> He'll just develop immunity to blunt force, and Hulk'll BFR him for the win.



Hulks blows will get into " I rape reality level" though I personally believe statement aside..beserkers gonna be gone for good long before then




Azure Flame Kite said:


> It's very clearly not a no-limits fallacy in this case, because the limit is clearly defined at planet level.



so hulk just levels the planet...then? and he dies for good?



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Oh man, a slippery slope accusation? I got one for you too.




I've got one for you..why is a former mod using statements as facts when theres nothing to support them? why are you being so hostile? when you know there's been a crack down on it? does our doubt..on FSN's statements grieve you so? I'm not trying to be an ass here but this seems to be coming out of no where

the OBD just had a couple minor board wars..over a fundamental disagreement over how we do things-why are we suddenly backtracking on the one thing that makes this place one of the best out there?



Azure Flame Kite said:


> If we take a stricter placement of evidence, never accepting anything that  isn't shown on screen, soon we'll get stricter and only accept feats with accompanying narration, then we'll get stricter and only accept feats that are shown, accompanied by narration, mentioned in at least two interviews with the author, and brought up in the next four chapters, and then we won't accept any feats at all.



that's so far out there..it's preposterous the only feat based forum that has ever come close to that extreme is CBr and even it dosn't compare to what your proposing

further more how does refusing to accept that beserker can't be killed by anything other "conceptual" retcon...or what ever...despite not showing feats of tanking planet busters...and beyond...a slippery slope into that?

I thought it was just following the rules..we certainly have never been this lenient..to any other fiction I have seen..not in my time on the battledome any ways 



Azure Flame Kite said:


> I understand your concern for the need of boundaries, but an author's statement is fine if it doesn't conflict with source material, there is no reason to believe otherwise.



if he dosn't back up his statement AFAIK I see no reason to take it as legit at all...forget contradiction...just..back it up


Azure Flame Kite said:


> F/SN has one planet buster, and yes, no one actually busted a planet. The author simply said that he could.



are there any feats that would even remotely suggest power approximating that level? if not..then he can say it all he wants...it's still a statement with zero back up



Azure Flame Kite said:


> If you have a reason as to why that isn't ample proof, please explain, because so far, you've done a lot of bitching, but not a lot of explaining.



I've explained pretty plainly..I think..if your taking issue with the clarity of others...that's fine..please be a bit more professional with me...I haven't exactly been a raging ass in this thread


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## Cypher0120 (May 12, 2010)

Ea at it's base min (at least in Enuma Elish mode) is going to do about 800 damage at least (STR x 20) + randomly added modifiers by MGI.

(Since Gilgamesh's STR is B, the Parameters do say that an umodified B STR is 40. Multiply by 20 and you get 800.) MGI is added at random, Gilgamesh's mana is A...I think? 

So, double that amount potentially (1600).

Max damage being 4000.

Then there's backup from GoB NPs 


In comparison, Excalibur has an output of 150. (In one of the databooks I think.)

4000...plus backup from the Gate of Babylon....that's still gonna be nasty when aimed down at Gaia.


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## Red (May 12, 2010)

God hand is like Juggernaut's power in combination with doomsday's reactive evolution. Force is irrelevant and what matters is the magical rank. This is a situation where "Punch it harder, maybe it'll go away" does not work.



Endless Mike said:


> Show durability feats to prove it or* it's pointless hyperbole like "Susanoo is invincible".*


"Prove its a hyperbole, I have no reason to claim it is but I'm going to claim hyperbole because I just don't like another character being powerful."

OBD still haven't outgrown that nonsense. 


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I'll answer this..spoken word  means very little when debating fictional characters...a creator can say  one thing...and then never  show such power...we are under obligation  then to go by the characters consistent feats over his statement
> 
> if that happens to depower a verse we like..tough
> 
> ...


Or the third one that makes a lick of sense: Take it as a work of  fiction where the Author has absolute control over every aspect of the  universe and his word is law regardless of the logic or precedent behind  it.

Hyperbole is a factor but its idiotic to call every exposition and  narration a hyperbole unless you prove it is. Most people do it by going  about the context of what is written. But that's not what's happening  here, you're talking the default stance as hyperbole when the burden of  proof is for you to explain why all that information should be treated  as such.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 12, 2010)

God hand is 12 lives with adaptive regen. The same attack won't work twice if it fails to take all 12 lives If it does take all 12 lives in the first use then Berserker dies, it's less wanked version than Doomsday so don't go calling it hyperbole when it's shown to behave as stated. I fail to see the problem however the OBD treats multiple lives and adaptive evolution applies here.

This is nothing like Susanoo which supposedly has the NLF of blocking anything.You can kill him for good it's only if you fail to take all 12 lives will the attack fail the next time if use it, but you can always use another attack or BFR or erase him from existence or some H4X even then. Hulk can take all 12 lives with ease in one punch, he's mountain+ in base easily so what's the problem? 



> This is a situation where "Punch it harder, maybe it'll go away" does not work



Hulk's punches defy physics like punching out energy, time storms, forcefields and other insane things. Plus he can throw things into orbit. Really to say the Hulk of all people can't do it is indeed a No limits Fallacy. He's mountain+ easily in base as well now so yeah one punch would take all 12 lives easily.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2010)

In a match like this, Hulk is the unstoppable force while Berserker is the unmovable mountain (however he ain't exactly slow either). In Berserker's defense, there's a reason he was considered the most dangerous Servent to fight in the Grail War. In Fate route, it took the combine powers of Shiro, Saber, Archer, and Rin to take down this bastard. UBW route, Gilgamesh can solo Berserker easy since he has Gate of Babylon. Heaven's Feel route, Angra Mainyu practically possesses Berserker and Shiro with stronger tracing powers stopped him. The reason guys like Archer and Gilgamesh can kill Berserker multiple times is because they have access to multiple means of killing him. As much as how strong Hulk is, once Berserker dies and revives, he's not dying from the same attack twice.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 12, 2010)

You missed the part where Illya stated Rin could have killed all his lives at once if she used 5 more jewels. Stop wanking him, he can lose multiple if not all lives at once if hit with a strong enough attack. Mountain+ is way above any attack Berserker has tanked and Hulk is like that on normal showings. His regen adaptive power only works if he survives the attack and does'nt lose 12 lives.


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## skiboydoggy (May 12, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I'll answer this..spoken word means very little when debating fictional characters...a creator can say one thing...and then never  show such power...we are under obligation then to go by the characters consistent feats over his statement
> 
> if that happens to depower a verse we like..tough
> 
> talk is cheap..actions takes precedent



That would mean a flying fuck if there were any actions to take precedence over statements and explanations in the first place. Word of God and narrative statements are used to supplement feats, and should never contradict them.
Guess what? Berserker hasn't died from being hit by ordinary weapons yet, so nothing is being contradicted.



> and I'll talk it a step further..when the character has absolutely no feats to suggest he can do something yet the author says he can...we have two choices: Accept a completely insane statement thats not backed up by anything
> 
> or laugh it off



Word of God doesn't need anything to back it up. That's why it's the Word of God. If the author needed to write equations and draw diagrams to prove that Character A could jump through a hoop, that would defeat the purpose of being the omnipotent-omniscient author in the first place.

Or is Dumbledore just really bad at picking up women now?



> that being said I'll make something clear at least for my part: I have no problem taking word of god statements as truth..when their at the very least backed up by some feats suggesting that such a thing claimed can be done is all



So is Yajirobe weaker than Kami now? Because he hasn't done anything to suggest that he's even near a match for pre-death Goku.



> Hulks blows will get into " I rape reality level" though I personally believe statement aside..beserkers gonna be gone for good long before then



Based on?



> so hulk just levels the planet...then? and he dies for good?



Levelling the planet won't do very much to end Berserker permanently, not when as a spiritual body it doesn't need air or food for sustenance.



> I've got one for you..why is a former mod using statements as facts when theres nothing to support them? why are you being so hostile? when you know there's been a crack down on it? does our doubt..on FSN's statements grieve you so? I'm not trying to be an ass here but this seems to be coming out of no where
> 
> the OBD just had a couple minor board wars..over a fundamental disagreement over how we do things-why are we suddenly backtracking on the one thing that makes this place one of the best out there?
> 
> ...



Baaawww AFK is being mean and the OBD isn't my perfect utopia 



> if he dosn't back up his statement AFAIK I see no reason to take it as legit at all...forget contradiction...just..back it up



Lack of contradiction is a far more lenient level than backing it up. I have no idea what this statement is intended to mean. Although the OBD trying to impose limits on the author's authority (notice they use the same root word) over his own fiction is preposterous in the extreme. The Naruto databooks are the exception, not the rule here.



> are there any feats that would even remotely suggest power approximating that level? if not..then he can say it all he wants...it's still a statement with zero back up



That's all it really needs to be. Hence why Chopper's birthday is 25th December without his birth being shown on-panel. Word of God is Word of God, not Word of Moses or Word of St Peter.

Ignoring that though, there are about a thousand mechanics that do explain why Berserker's powers are as they are. The source of his power is the Throne of Heroes, which is closely connected to the Counter Force and thus Akasha, the multiversal omnipotent arbiter of fate in the Nasuverse.



> I've explained pretty plainly..I think..if your taking issue with the clarity of others...that's fine..please be a bit more professional with me...I haven't exactly been a raging ass in this thread



Personally I get short tempered if the post is hard to read, or if the opposing group in general is being hard-headed. AFK should be similar.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> You missed the part where Illya stated Rin could have killed all his lives at once if she used 5 more jewels. Stop wanking him, he can lose multiple if not all lives at once if hit with a strong enough attack. Mountain+ is way above any attack Berserker has tanked and Hulk is like that on normal showings. His regen adaptive power only works if he survives the attack and does'nt lose 12 lives.



A) I'm not wanking, mearly stating what I know.

B ) You do know not one Jewel of Rin's the same

C ) He get's killed multiple times by Caliburn and Nine Lives due to multiple factors (mostly magic based and historical precedence in the Noble Phantasms)


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## Tranquil Fury (May 12, 2010)

Was'nt it stated Excalibur could take all 12 lives in one hit? Nine lives bladeworks took 8 lives because it hit him 8 times in different places *at once*. It was one attack of 8 hits.



> Ignoring that though, there are about a thousand mechanics that do explain why Berserker's powers are as they are. The source of his power is the Throne of Heroes, which is closely connected to the Counter Force and thus Akasha, the multiversal omnipotent arbiter of fate in the Nasuverse



He was granted 12 lives for doing the 12 tasks by the greek gods.



> Levelling the planet won't do very much to end Berserker permanently, not when as a spiritual body it doesn't need air or food for sustenance



Are you implying Berserker can survive a planet busting punch to him? He does'nt have the feats.


----------



## Endless Mike (May 12, 2010)

I believe you could all use some enlightenment from Mike Wong, who makes this case very clearly:





> It seems some people require examples, since they do not understand concepts. In particular, many fantasy geekboys come here and say that magic cannot be quantified. Perhaps they do not understand what quantification is, or how numbers apply. Allow me to provide an example:
> 
> A fantasy wizard has a magic spell which is said to make him invincible. Let us further suppose that we see him use it against a foe who can throw lightning, and it seems to work.
> 
> ...



tl;dr: Feats or GTFO.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (May 12, 2010)

While I agree Hulk wins since based on feats Berserker cannot tank a mountain+ attack and would lose all 12 lives at once:



> The magic geekboy would look at this and conclude "yes, this spell makes him invincible. We know because he used it and it worked. Therefore, God himself could not overwhelm this spell.



No this is like Susanoo. We go with the strongest thing it's tanked/blocked as it's limit. The thing being argued is whether Berserker could adapt if he survives a punch(He can't survive it obviously). But good read.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Was'nt it stated Excalibur could take all 12 lives in one hit? Nine lives bladeworks took 8 lives because it hit him 8 times in different places *at once*. It was one attack of 8 hits.
> 
> 
> 
> He was granted 12 lives for doing the 12 tasks by the greek gods.



No, only Caliburn was capable of finishing off Berserker. In one of the Dead Ends, Saber used Excalibur on Berserker and killed him. Once I believe. He revives, kills her, Rin, and Shiro last.


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## Riverlia (May 12, 2010)

> You missed the part where Illya stated Rin could have killed all his lives at once if she used 5 more jewels


Correction
Illya never said that.
The 'you could have kill more lives if you had more....' was directed to Saber, in a bad end when she tried to use Excalibur against Berserker, which did in about 1-2 lives from Berserker.
Illya only laugh at Rin and basically said 'waoo, great, it's amazing you even get to kill him once, but he still has 5 lives left, good luck killing him'
Nothing about 'more gems more live'


> No, only Caliburn was capable of finishing off Berserker. In one of the Dead Ends, Saber used Excalibur on Berserker and killed him. Once I believe. He revives, kills her, Rin, and Shiro last.


Nine Lives did him in, but people were suspecting if God hand was active at all, as it's a divine Noble Phantasm in nature (unlike Excalibur power which can be used for both, although default to holy), and Altered Berserker was basically Dark/demonic


----------



## Watchman (May 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I believe you could all use some enlightenment from Mike Wong, who makes this case very clearly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have you ever heard of this thing called Word of God? It's not simply fallible character statements you're dealing with here, but the actual statements of the creator of the work which have not been shown to be hyperbole a la "Amaterasu is as hot as the sun but fails to even get past Karin's robe"


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> That would mean a flying fuck if there were any actions to take precedence over statements and explanations in the first place. Word of God and narrative statements are used to supplement feats, and should never contradict them.
> Guess what? Berserker hasn't died from being hit by ordinary weapons yet, so nothing is being contradicted.



that's still no basis for saying a guy like hulk who shits on reality when he's at his most angry wouldn't massacre this guy into nothingness

you can;t just go "cause its stated one requires to remove the concept" fuck that the guys gonna survive what he;s been shown too and no more




skiboydoggy said:


> Word of God doesn't need anything to back it up. That's why it's the Word of God. If the author needed to write equations and draw diagrams to prove that Character A could jump through a hoop, that would defeat the purpose of being the omnipotent-omniscient author in the first place.



yes it does..authors make statements all the time about character capabilities...yet they aren't back up by anything..nothing contradicts them...but nothing backs them up

Whedons famous Pre season 8 buffy is comparable to spiderman in terms of strength and speed..is one of the best

or Sentry stalemating big G I've got a couple more amusing ones I can toss up that aren't contradicted but clearly should never be taken seriously



skiboydoggy said:


> Or is Dumbledore just really bad at picking up women now?



that's a pretty off example




skiboydoggy said:


> So is Yajirobe weaker than Kami now? Because he hasn't done anything to suggest that he's even near a match for pre-death Goku.



I'd actually have to rexamine kami's feats..but from what I recall he certainly would be 





skiboydoggy said:


> ]Based on?



based on the fact that hulk has been shown to damage intangibles and beserker has never shown he can shrug off a planet buster 




skiboydoggy said:


> Levelling the planet won't do very much to end Berserker permanently, not when as a spiritual body it doesn't need air or food for sustenance.



Hulk can hurt spirits just fine



skiboydoggy said:


> Baaawww AFK is being mean and the OBD isn't my perfect utopia



err no..and I've got a pretty positive opinion of the OBD but this bending over backwards for FSN is getting silly 



skiboydoggy said:


> Lack of contradiction is a far more lenient level than backing it up. I have no idea what this statement is intended to mean. Although the OBD trying to impose limits on the author's authority (notice they use the same root word) over his own fiction is preposterous in the extreme. The Naruto databooks are the exception, not the rule here.



and marvel and Dc databooks numerous times in narrations stan lee kirby...byrne johns leob..made a myriad of statements that where never contradicted about character capabilities

yet we know god damn well the instances when they where simply talking out of their rear end

there is absolutely no reason to suggest we should take word of god..and say allow beserker to soak a galaxy buster...when he has *never* shown to resist that type of damage

at some point control needs to be applied..or a debate degenerates into nothing but spoken word..over 





skiboydoggy said:


> That's all it really needs to be. Hence why Chopper's birthday is 25th December without his birth being shown on-panel. Word of God is Word of God, not Word of Moses or Word of St Peter.


theres a difference between minor information

and "my guy can survive this" as an author..I'll need to some where down the line back up what I'm saying



skiboydoggy said:


> Ignoring that though, there are about a thousand mechanics that do explain why Berserker's powers are as they are. The source of his power is the Throne of Heroes, which is closely connected to the Counter Force and thus Akasha, the multiversal omnipotent arbiter of fate in the Nasuverse.



mechanics are good all that;s fine but some type of control needs to established on what we're willing to accept 



skiboydoggy said:


> Personally I get short tempered if the post is hard to read, or if the opposing group in general is being hard-headed. AFK should be similar.



I'd do this to any fiction it's not a question of being stubborn for me..it's just when it comes to the rules for evidence I'm old school I'm pretty much 100 percent " feats or gtfo" to qoute EM although I also prefer consistency 

and yeah i apologize for the grammar


----------



## Fenix (May 12, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> No this is like Susanoo. We go with the strongest thing it's tanked/blocked as it's limit. The thing being argued is whether Berserker could adapt if he survives a punch(He can't survive it obviously). But good read.



Er no. It's the exact same thing. 

Let's say he survives a mountain crushing punch and adapts to it. Now what? People were trying to argue that he can now survive an even stronger attack simply because it's still a punch.


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## lambda (May 12, 2010)

And he will. Because it's still a punch.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2010)

lambda said:


> And he will. Because it's still a punch.



A Gamma enraged infused punch at that. Once Berserker adapts to that, now what?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

Hulks reality busting punches are almost as potent as Popeyes

I highly doubt Beserkers gonna be tanking that just because..he can adapt to a punch


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## lambda (May 12, 2010)

basch71 said:


> A Gamma enraged infused punch at that. Once Berserker adapts to that, now what?


Then BFR    .


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2010)

lambda said:


> Then BFR    .



That's the best he can do.


----------



## Red (May 12, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I believe you could all use some  enlightenment from Mike Wong, who makes this case very clearly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You would be right, *if the mechanics behind God hand didn't  explicitly state that its not the energy that's involved but the rank in  magic.* But this was stated so you're wrong. Now you can keep  applying generalities to a specific case which is clearly an exception  or you can get over it.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Hulk's punches defy physics like punching out energy, time storms, forcefields and other insane things. Plus he can throw things into orbit. Really to say the Hulk of all people can't do it is indeed a No limits Fallacy. He's mountain+ easily in base as well now so yeah one punch would take all 12 lives easily.


I know, hulk would pretty much punches out God hand. The two arguments I'm going after in this thread are; (1) _"Hit it hard enough and regardless of what type of shield it is it'll break!"_ nonsense and (2) _"Everything is a hyperbole until stated otherwise, I'm going to call it a hyperbole and you're going to have to prove why its not!"_. 

The first point only works out for reality warping punches like Arale, Popeye and the various versions of the Hulk but not for conventional attacks which deal with conventional force. 

Second point is what Ive addressed before. You can't take the stance that every thing is a hyperbole (Read: things that make a character I don't like more powerful) and one must prove you wrong because its shifting of burden of proof and it makes the incorrect assumption that information dumps and expository dialogs that have no on-panel showings are always hyperbole or laced with figures of speech. That's bullshit. Distilled pure and creamy bullshit.


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## Raigen (May 12, 2010)

I believe one time the Surfer stated that Hulk's strength and power was interdimensional in nature or had such qualities to it.


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## Crimson King (May 12, 2010)

basch71 said:


> No, only Caliburn was capable of finishing off Berserker. In one of the Dead Ends, Saber used Excalibur on Berserker and killed him. Once I believe. He revives, kills her, Rin, and Shiro last.



IIRC the Excaliblast didn't even hurt Berserker. He just tanked it and killed her.


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## Riverlia (May 12, 2010)

> Let's say he survives a mountain crushing punch and adapts to it. Now what? People were trying to argue that he can now survive an even stronger attack simply because it's still a punch.


People only remember the adaptation but not the initial protection
A-rank attack is required to hurt him
Mystery rank is what matter, not the force 
A single Excalibur swing from Saber pack similar power to one of Rin's gem
the gems could get pass God Hand, Saber's swings couldn't
Only because Saber's Excalibur is only ranked C as an attack when it's used as a regular sword, while Rin gems were ranked A.

This is what was accused of being hyperbole initially.


And God Hand revives Berserker after he was killed for 11 times
So the problem is not surviving, the problem is that 'can that attack take more than 1 lives?' This case happened in the novel/anime when he was pierced by Caliburn, and it helped (not) that no one know what mystery/magical rank Caliburn was and what concept it embodies, so frankly no one know if enough damage can take more than 1 lives, or it's just Caliburn. 
Going by the fact that Caliburn was considered weaker than even Excalibur, the most likely chance is that Caliburn embody a concept that can neutralize God Hand.


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (May 12, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yes it does..authors make statements all the time about character capabilities...yet they aren't back up by anything..nothing contradicts them...but nothing backs them up



Well considering the author holds the authority over their own work, why would they need anything else to back them up?

When it's written in their work, they don't need anything else to back them up, because it's written by them. 

Word of God is canonical, and has always been so.

In fact, some of Hulk's best feats are Word of God.



Just for example.



> Whedons famous Pre season 8 buffy is comparable to spiderman in terms of strength and speed..is one of the best
> 
> or Sentry stalemating big G I've got a couple more amusing ones I can toss up that aren't contradicted but clearly should never be taken seriously



I don't know shit about Buffy, but the Sentry thing was stated by Spider-man, it could be considered a character falliable statement.

Of course, considering Sentry apparently controls all matter in the Universe and shits on Molecule Man, whether or not it is an incorrect statement is debateable.

You aren't bringing up any examples of Word of God contradiction, and even if you do, one exception does not establish a general rule.



> I'd do this to any fiction it's not a question of being stubborn for me..it's just when it comes to the rules for evidence I'm old school I'm pretty much 100 percent " feats or gtfo" to qoute EM although I also prefer consistency



That's not old school, in fact that's some new shit that must have sprouted up in the two months I was gone.

Of course, none of this shit is actually factual, so as long as you can convince more people that your side is correct, the method is unimportant.


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## Cypher0120 (May 12, 2010)

This is like saying Ryougi needs feats to count as someone who can destroy the world. 

She can of course. But what's the point of that?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Well considering the author holds the authority over their own work, why would they need anything else to back them up?



because if not...me as a writer can simply go "this wizard is the mightest being in all the land...if he choose too he could burn the skies to ash and melt the land...and render the oceans unto vapor" if I didn;t back this up with any feats yet nothing contradicted it

you'd take that? despite no one..or any feat that even comes close to it?


Azure Flame Kite said:


> When it's written in their work, they don't need anything else to back them up, because it's written by them.



if nothing backs up that statement nor any feats approach that level in canon..frankly the author can take a hike 



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Word of God is canonical, and has always been so.



o when nothing backs it up we should just accept it? reminds me of..all the bad forums yall mock all the time



Azure Flame Kite said:


> In fact, some of Hulk's best feats are Word of God.
> 
> 
> 
> Just for example.



while that's indeed an impressive feat i would hardly call it..among his greatest

not when his greatest include making reality his bitch doing damage to a being as potent as onslaught and what not..those are usually clearly show not stated



Azure Flame Kite said:


> I don't know shit about Buffy, but the Sentry thing was stated by Spider-man, it could be considered a character falliable statement.



buffy by feats would not really compare to say batman..or richard dragon and would be wrecked by them..despite whedons statement

season 8 and beyond..thats a hole nother monster mind you...and some one you could possibly put up against admirals...and the like

another good example would be Jack Kirby..stating that Darkseid was the single strongest being in the pc dc universe

while he is definitely in the top five..we know this to be patently untrue

or greg paks "WWh is more powerful then superman.." actually every single word of god statement pack..or leob have ever made in their entire career falls into this catagory



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Of course, considering Sentry apparently controls all matter in the Universe and shits on Molecule Man, whether or not it is an incorrect statement is debateable.



it is far as I know cubed level beings like MM and bob  are about as far below a guy like Galactus as they are the celestials

making it still completely beyond his capabilities


Azure Flame Kite said:


> You aren't bringing up any examples of Word of God contradiction, and even if you do, one exception does not establish a general rule.



Hiko seijuro from rouroni kenshin was said by both the writer and the editors that he was so powerful he was the joker in the card deck and the single most powerful chsracter in the verse...something to the affect of could trash any one..ore any group

while I have no doubt he was indeed tier zero...I doubt he could solo the places entire roster regardless



Azure Flame Kite said:


> That's not old school, in fact that's some new shit that must have sprouted up in the two months I was gone.



placing feats above everything and giving statements consideration only when they are backed up by evidence is as old as vs forums itself..hell some of the largest inter forum, cluster fucks get caused because of this for a variant there of



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Of course, none of this shit is actually factual, so as long as you can convince more people that your side is correct, the method is unimportant.



oh that's nice...


----------



## Cypher0120 (May 12, 2010)

So...where are the feats for so-called omnipotents then?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> So...where are the feats for so-called omnipotents then?



laid bare for all to see...


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## Cypher0120 (May 12, 2010)

Taken from the Meta-Battledome:

"Word of God trope.
The author's statement is the ultimate proof of canon."

"The author's intent is relevant unless something he illustrates in his manga directly contradicts previous statements."

"...if said statement contradicts the actual facts of the fictional universe, it's thrown out."

Case in point. Nothing that Nasu said had contradicted anything shown by the characters.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

Cypher0120 said:


> Taken from the Meta-Battledome:
> 
> "Word of God trope.
> The author's statement is the ultimate proof of canon."
> ...



1, show me a character destroying planets..or even remotely coming close to that power

2, show me beserker tanking what amounts to a reality breaking blow..

in so far as why I should just blindly accept something that does not seem to be backed up

justify it give me some concrete proof


----------



## Cypher0120 (May 12, 2010)

1. Again, word of god. Word of god says that Gilgamesh can beat Arcueid, who has two...or three times the power of a regular servant. Defeating Arcueid is basically the same as beating an Ultimate being of the planet. Gilgamesh is the only Servant who can bring the amount of firepower needed to take her down. Nero's Soil of Genesis requires the power to destroy an entire continent to break out of. Ea is already beyond that.

And again based on statistics, Ea as a rank EX NP is already on a class of it's own in the databook where regular methods of measuring its power just can't be done when backed up with various things from his gate.

But they've never fought in any of Nasu's works. Does this mean it should be ignored? Hell no. 

2. I never sided with Berserker. That question does not apply to me.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> 1, show me a character destroying planets..or even remotely coming close to that power
> 
> 2, show me beserker tanking what amounts to a reality breaking blow..
> 
> ...



Lord o mighty, here we go

1. Gilgamesh's Ea is Anti-World. Enuma Elish renders time and space and it's magical capacity can destroy a world. You want an idea of world. The laws of the Nasuverse runs on magic and rules. IIRC Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish destroys a infinite Reality Marble in Fate/Zero. Infinte Reality Marbles is essentially another world created by the weilder, like Archer's Unlimited Blade Works. Enuma Elish can destroy that world. And Gaea's Reality Marble is the world WE KNOW. Gaea, the world itself is a character in canon. If Enuma Elish at full power destroys Gaea's Reality Marble, WE ARE BONED.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

so basically that's a no..you've got no feats to back up the statement?


----------



## skiboydoggy (May 12, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> that's still no basis for saying a guy like hulk who shits on reality when he's at his most angry wouldn't massacre this guy into nothingness
> 
> you can;t just go "cause its stated one requires to remove the concept" fuck that the guys gonna survive what he;s been shown too and no more



Of course if the Hulk starts observably fracturing reality with his fists he'll probably destroy Berserker, but that's only because he has reached the point where he has overridden Gaia, the Throne of Heroes, and Akasha's opinion on the matter and just killed Berserker.
Is the Hulk ever likely to reach that level of anger where he can become Emoboy Prime? Not likely.



> yes it does..authors make statements all the time about character capabilities...yet they aren't back up by anything..nothing contradicts them...but nothing backs them up
> 
> Whedons famous Pre season 8 buffy is comparable to spiderman in terms of strength and speed..is one of the best



Whedon doesn't write Spiderman. He has no idea what Spiderman can do, and is probably basing his opinion off the animated series and/or movies, as opposed to 40 years of canon in the comics. On top of that, Buffy's author has no authority over Spiderman, and thus cannot affect Spiderman to match Buffy.

A case could possibly be made that Buffy should be buffed () up to Spiderman's level (at least, the level that Whedon would know about) based on such a statement, but from what I know of Buffy, she would have shown tangible and quantifiable limits in-story that makes her absolutely not a match for Spiderman.



> or Sentry stalemating big G I've got a couple more amusing ones I can toss up that aren't contradicted but clearly should never be taken seriously



Spidey said that, not the writer.



> that's a pretty off example



No it's not. Word of God overrides everything except the actual fiction in question itself.



> I'd actually have to rexamine kami's feats..but from what I recall he certainly would be



Somebody who has no flight and ki projection abilities being stronger than Kami? Yeah, go ahead and find feats.



> based on the fact that hulk has been shown to damage intangibles and beserker has never shown he can shrug off a planet buster



Berserker isn't intangible so it doesn't really matter, and Hulk's funky punches in themselves are the reason why Berserker is even getting killed once in the first place. Berserker also exists in a universe where people can drop the moon on your head for lulz, so I'm going to say that he can probably stop a planet buster if that's the statement given and the implication of the author when he says that nothing can hurt Berserker.



> Hulk can hurt spirits just fine



Hence, one death.



> err no..and I've got a pretty positive opinion of the OBD but this bending over backwards for FSN is getting silly



Bending over for wha?



> and marvel and Dc databooks numerous times in narrations stan lee kirby...byrne johns leob..made a myriad of statements that where never contradicted about character capabilities
> 
> yet we know god damn well the instances when they where simply talking out of their rear end



Even if they were talking out of their ass or out of a parasitic loudspeaker embedded in their belly button, so long as it doesn't contradict the actual comic it doesn't really matter.



> there is absolutely no reason to suggest we should take word of god..and say allow beserker to soak a galaxy buster...when he has *never* shown to resist that type of damage



Hulk isn't a galaxy buster or anywhere near it, so your point is moot. Dark Schneider, TTGL, any of the Choushin, so on and so forth would turn Berserker into mush with a thought.



> at some point control needs to be applied..or a debate degenerates into nothing but spoken word..over



The point really isn't here.



> theres a difference between minor information
> 
> and "my guy can survive this" as an author..I'll need to some where down the line back up what I'm saying



No, that's why you're God. Old Testament God was a huge dick, but he's still God.



> mechanics are good all that;s fine but some type of control needs to established on what we're willing to accept



I think the limits are established just fine. Primary canon (the work of fiction) overrides secondary canon (databooks, interviews, so on), but canon is canon.


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (May 12, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> because if not...me as a writer can simply go "this wizard is the mightest being in all the land...if he choose too he could burn the skies to ash and melt the land...and render the oceans unto vapor" if I didn;t back this up with any feats yet nothing contradicted it.
> 
> you'd take that? despite no one..or any feat that even comes close to it?



Yes, if you wrote a story, and said "This is a story about a Wizard." and that was your story, then as the author stated, 'By the way, my Wizard can bust planets, I know, because I created the work of fiction.' It would be accepted.

Try it and see what happens.



> if nothing backs up that statement nor any feats approach that level in canon..frankly the author can take a hike



The author is who decides what is and isn't canon, so clearly you don't know what you're talking about.



> o when nothing backs it up we should just accept it? reminds me of..all the bad forums yall mock all the time



The Author's word backs it up.

An Omniscient Narrator is telling you that this is the truth. It is fact.



> while that's indeed an impressive feat i would hardly call it..among his greatest
> 
> not when his greatest include making reality his bitch doing damage to a being as potent as onslaught and what not..those are usually clearly show not stated



And yet, you accept this as a feat, even though there is no proof that mountain weighs more than 14 ounces.



> buffy by feats would not really compare to say batman..or richard dragon and would be wrecked by them..despite whedons statement
> 
> season 8 and beyond..thats a hole nother monster mind you...and some one you could possibly put up against admirals...and the like



You haven't told me the statement, or shown it to me for that matter.



> another good example would be Jack Kirby..stating that Darkseid was the single strongest being in the pc dc universe



Is Jack Kirby the creator of the DC Universe? Because if he is, then it is true, unless on panel feats _contradict him._



> or greg paks "WWh is more powerful then superman.." actually every single word of god statement pack..or leob have ever made in their entire career falls into this catagory



Is Greg Pak or Loeb the creator of Superman?

Because if not, his statement holds no value across things that aren't his creation.



> it is far as I know cubed level beings like MM and bob  are about as far below a guy like Galactus as they are the celestials
> 
> making it still completely beyond his capabilities



So, as long as I've got you right, nothing but shown feats count right?

Galactus has never displayed anything that is beyond Sentry's level.

Go prove me wrong without any statements. Have fun.



> Hiko seijuro from rouroni kenshin was said by both the writer and the editors that he was so powerful he was the joker in the card deck and the single most powerful chsracter in the verse...something to the affect of could trash any one..ore any group
> 
> while I have no doubt he was indeed tier zero...I doubt he could solo the places entire roster regardless



You doubt it, but the author says its true, the author's statement of fact holds more weight than your opinion.



> placing feats above everything and giving statements consideration only when they are backed up by evidence is as old as vs forums itself..hell some of the largest inter forum, cluster fucks get caused because of this for a variant there of



Bullshit, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Feats don't always take precedence and have never always taken precedence, see Sephiroth's Supernovae, you're absolutist attitude is both flawed and incorrect.

Statements _by the author_ have always been accepted as canon.



> oh that's nice...



It's also true.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> 1, show me a character destroying planets..or even remotely coming close to that power



Ea destroyed a reality marble, which is a parallel universe.

So, that's pretty close to planet busting, probably beyond it though.



> 2, show me beserker tanking what amounts to a reality breaking blow..



Reality breaking is vague and unquantifiable, try again, because in a sense, all blows that damage Berserker are reality breaking since they are designed to attack concepts without form.



> in so far as why I should just blindly accept something that does not seem to be backed up
> 
> justify it give me some concrete proof



This is concrete proof, and so is Word of God, you've not given a reason to believe it otherwise.

Accepting Word of God is by no means blind, or any different than accepting anything else, because the Author determines what is valid and isn't.


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## Raigen (May 12, 2010)

Put it like this. I make a character. His name is Buggaboo. Buggaboo can blink planets out of existence. Now, I make a story, but I don't show Buggaboo in it at all and instead make an entirely different cast made to work towards his level. Buggaboo himself does not appear.

Does Buggaboo really have the power to blink away planets? "Word of God" is not contradicted, because Bugaboo has not been shown, therefore there is nothing to suggest he is not at the level of force he is stated to be by the writer.

Now, the problem with Nasu? Lots of "word of god" stuff with every char, and pretty much none of it is being backed by their actions or use of said powers. Breaking out of a Reality marble isn't the same as destroying a planet/universe. Lina Inverse broke and escaped from a sub-space dimension created by a Mazoku, does that mean she can destroy a world/universe from that? No. (she could via Giga-Slave, but that's an entirely different issue). Too much of that is hyperbole.

How do we know Saints, DBZ'ers, Tenchi figures and beings from various other series can do things like planet-busting and the like? Because it's been demonstrated to us and not just stated they can do so. In fact I never knew guys in Saint Seiya could even city-bust and then learn they have multiverse busters (cripes). But, for F/S, when practically the whole cast has all the same type of powers/abilities, one escaping from another doesn't really count nor prove planet-busting level. It's a statement with no backing, and frankly nothing they do even remotely demonstrates or indicates they could use that kind of force. The most I ever saw from Saber's Excalibur was multi-block leveling. That's about it. Ea being stronger than that doesn't mean much to me.

I try to use as little of the game logic/story as possible, because most of it is just crap. Especially when you have other sources to go on. When a game has multiple endings, you can't accept all the paths taken and endings as canon. It's just bogus. It's like trying to take all the endings in the Tekken games seriously. A number of them are literally for shits'n giggles. Like Ling's ending in Tekken 3 when she beats up Heihachi for ruining her theme park idea. No possible way she could do that.


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## Azure Flame Fright (May 12, 2010)

Raigen said:


> Put it like this. I make a character. His name is Buggaboo. Buggaboo can blink planets out of existence. Now, I make a story, but I don't show Buggaboo in it at all and instead make an entirely different cast made to work towards his level. Buggaboo himself does not appear.
> 
> Does Buggaboo really have the power to blink away planets? "Word of God" is not contradicted, because Bugaboo has not been shown, therefore there is nothing to suggest he is not at the level of force he is stated to be by the writer.



Buggaboo wouldn't count unless you stated that Buggaboo was a part of your story, because in your example, at least, you make it seem as though Buggaboo is not a part of your work of fiction.

However, even if Buggaboo were never to show up, if you stated that Buggaboo was in that story, and he could blink away planets, and if it isn't contradicted anywhere, yes it is canon.



> Now, the problem with Nasu? Lots of "word of god" stuff with every char, and pretty much none of it is being backed by their actions or use of said powers. Breaking out of a Reality marble isn't the same as destroying a planet/universe. Lina Inverse broke and escaped from a sub-space dimension created by a Mazoku, does that mean she can destroy a world/universe from that? No. (she could via Giga-Slave, but that's an entirely different issue). Too much of that is hyperbole.
> 
> How do we know Saints, DBZ'ers, Tenchi figures and beings from various other series can do things like planet-busting and the like? Because it's been demonstrated to us and not just stated they can do so. In fact I never knew guys in Saint Seiya could even city-bust and then learn they have multiverse busters (cripes). But, for F/S, when practically the whole cast has all the same type of powers/abilities, one escaping from another doesn't really count nor prove planet-busting level. It's a statement with no backing, and frankly nothing they do even remotely demonstrates or indicates they could use that kind of force. The most I ever saw from Saber's Excalibur was multi-block leveling. That's about it. Ea being stronger than that doesn't mean much to me.
> 
> I try to use as little of the game logic/story as possible, because most of it is just crap. Especially when you have other sources to go on. When a game has multiple endings, you can't accept all the paths taken and endings as canon. It's just bogus. It's like trying to take all the endings in the Tekken games seriously. A number of them are literally for shits'n giggles. Like Ling's ending in Tekken 3 when she beats up Heihachi for ruining her theme park idea. No possible way she could do that.



Clearly she could beat him up, because she did, if there's a legitimate reason that she couldn't, than it becomes an issue of author vs. feat, in which case we usually take feat over author.

The author said it, that is reason enough to consider it canonical.

Clearly this has become a meta-dome issue.


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## Cypher0120 (May 12, 2010)

Because if Gilgamesh were to have his maximum power backed up, he'd have to be destroying Gaia.

Word of God also claims that he can win the Grail War in less than an hour but he never showed that. Doesn't mean he can't when he's serious though.

Multiple endings though, for F/SN, aren't they all canonical? Unlike Tekken's endings, each ending forms an alternate universe of their own.


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## skiboydoggy (May 12, 2010)

Raigen laying down the law on canon.

Clearly the visual novel is shit and we should all use the anime instead.


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## Riverlia (May 12, 2010)

> 1. Again, word of god. Word of god says that Gilgamesh can beat Arcueid, who has two...or three times the power of a regular servant. Defeating Arcueid is basically the same as beating an Ultimate being of the planet. Gilgamesh is the only Servant who can bring the amount of firepower needed to take her down. Nero's Soil of Genesis requires the power to destroy an entire continent to break out of. Ea is already beyond that.


Gilgamesh can beat 30% Arc, not Arche-Type Earth Arc


> I try to use as little of the game logic/story as possible, because most of it is just crap


It's a Visual Novel
a book with images voices, and choice
battle are described, not play
It's also the highest canon (anime and manga and fighting games all take second place to it) so you cant avoid using it, saying it's crap basically mean you proclaim the whole series crap.


> when practically the whole cast has all the same type of powers/abilities


Do you know anything at all about Servants? 
The whole cast has all the same type of power/ability? So everyone get Gae Bolg, can Excalibur, replicate infinite swords and has nuclear powered flying machine now?
You think this is a RPG where you can learn whatever you want?


> When a game has multiple endings, you can't accept all the paths taken and endings as canon


Except it's all canon in Nasuverse, all the VNs Type Moon made and their sequels never explore a single timeline


> Like Ling's ending in Tekken 3 when she beats up Heihachi for ruining her theme park idea. No possible way she


Reinforcing the fact that you don't know jack about what being discussed, comparing a fighting game to a visual novel


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2010)

IIRC All the routes in Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night happen and are canon. How do you think we know guys like Gilgamesh can solo Berserker easy? Or that Archer is a future Shiro from an alternate timeline? Even though the Fate route is the first one available and the only route to having an Epilogue ending?


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## Raigen (May 13, 2010)

Use the anime? Hell no. Manga is better. It actually introduces Rider's stone gaze ability and does a much better job of explaining each of the Servants' abilities. The manga at least solidifies everything into one thing and not a dozen separate scenarios. Same with the Tsukihime manga.


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## Riverlia (May 13, 2010)

> Use the anime? Hell no. Manga is better. It actually introduces Rider's stone gaze ability and does a much better job of explaining each of the Servants' abilities. The manga at least solidifies everything into one thing and not a dozen separate scenarios. Same with the Tsukihime manga.
> __________________


Except the mangas were adaption of the Visual Novel, and is of lower canon.
I'll ROFL if someone put manga as higher canon than the original VN games


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 13, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Yes, if you wrote a story, and said "This is a story about a Wizard." and that was your story, then as the author stated, 'By the way, my Wizard can bust planets, I know, because I created the work of fiction.' It would be accepted.[



and if say my story is taking place in a verse where this wizard aside every other character has displayed feats that do not in any way compare to that...in any way what so ever

your still going to take me seriously?



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Try it and see what happens.



I would consider my fans morons for taking a spoken sentence..over the displayed feats in the text...actually



Azure Flame Kite said:


> The author is who decides what is and isn't canon, so clearly you don't know what you're talking about.



if the author does not back up his words with feats I have the right to call bullshit..on a statements use as evidence 




Azure Flame Kite said:


> The Author's word backs it up.



do feats back it up



Azure Flame Kite said:


> An Omniscient Narrator is telling you that this is the truth. It is fact.



an omniscient..all powerful narratar who shaped the story can easily show me...something as well..and back up what he's saying



Azure Flame Kite said:


> And yet, you accept this as a feat, even though there is no proof that mountain weighs more than 14 ounces.



I can look at a real world mountain and see the enormity of that one..and infer that it weighs a fuckton





Azure Flame Kite said:


> You haven't told me the statement, or shown it to me for that matter.



it was an example

not supported by feats but not contradicted either



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Is Jack Kirby the creator of the DC Universe? Because if he is, then it is true, unless on panel feats _contradict him._



along with bob finger...and cane..and then in marvel lee and dikto

kirby created much of the two franchises cosmology..and profoundly transformed both marvel and Dc but he did not soley create either

the new gods..and Darkseid where exclusively his..creation at one point he said this

the rest of the Dc writers must not of gotten the memo because at the same time several characters...performed above DS by a wide degree



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Is Greg Pak or Loeb the creator of Superman?
> 
> Because if not, his statement holds no value across things that aren't his creation.



considering Dc does not give a flying fuck...about the creator of supermans own wishes..and statements...considering he got..screwed by them

and given a recent law suit they maybe forced to legally not give a darn....

this isn't very applicable actually



Azure Flame Kite said:


> So, as long as I've got you right, nothing but shown feats count right?



not at all I said it even in an earlier post that I have no issue what so ever accepting statements when their backed up by at least a little proof suggesting a character can do a thing




Azure Flame Kite said:


> Galactus has never displayed anything that is beyond Sentry's level.
> 
> Go prove me wrong without any statements. Have fun.



theirs four decades or so of feats from big G ranging from..bfring entire galaxies to collapsing pocket universes shown while simultaneously being stated

thats not...exactly the best..analogy 



Azure Flame Kite said:


> You doubt it, but the author says its true, the author's statement of fact holds more weight than your opinion.



that Hiko could slaughter any RK character in single combat? many in 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 hell no I don;t doubt that at all

that you could put him in a room with every single character and he'd win? absolutely he hasn't shown me anything to suggest that...



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Bullshit, you have no idea what you're talking about.



really because I can remember being in a couple that went..this way

hell one forum in particular has caused tremendous controversy for taking this policy to an extreme not seen any where else in fact it caused a two year long board war between two major forums specifically because of it




Azure Flame Kite said:


> Feats don't always take precedence and have never always taken precedence, see Sephiroth's Supernovae, you're absolutist attitude is both flawed and incorrect.



if a statement is not backed up by feats...what sense is there in taking it seriously?



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Statements _by the author_ have always been accepted as canon.



there's been a good deal of shitstorms over word of god boss lady



Azure Flame Kite said:


> It's also true.



are you making a generalization here..because I don't go that way..nor do I think I'm even noticed..or known enough to even try that 

I'm too fucking new..AFAK and I'm not exactly well versed and well knowledgeable on enough of the topics here to pull something like that



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Ea destroyed a reality marble, which is a parallel universe.
> 
> So, that's pretty close to planet busting, probably beyond it though.



well fuck if it can do that why bother even tossing out a statement 



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Reality breaking is vague and unquantifiable, try again, because in a sense, all blows that damage Berserker are reality breaking since they are designed to attack concepts without form.



popeye at his absolute maximum...levels of power punches him in the face?

or PC DS uses the pre crisses omega effect on him...He's gonna shrug either of this off?



Azure Flame Kite said:


> This is concrete proof, and so is Word of God, you've not given a reason to believe it otherwise.



a lack of feats is enough for me to doubt word of god



Azure Flame Kite said:


> Accepting Word of God is by no means blind, or any different than accepting anything else, because the Author determines what is valid and isn't.



yeah in cases where the author backs up what he means to show..or at least shows enough feats that suggest a thing is possible taking statements then is a must

but in a case like this it seems..iffy


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 13, 2010)

I just consider the mangas of Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night as alternate routes. Some on screen stuff but not enough information as compared to the Visual Novels, their spin offs and sequels, data books and Word of God.


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## skiboydoggy (May 13, 2010)

Raigen laying down the law again. USE THE MOTHERFUCKING MANGA! (Even though it retcons Sakura's history, but let's GO WITH THAT)


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 13, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> Raigen laying down the law again. USE THE MOTHERFUCKING MANGA! (Even though it retcons Sakura's history, but let's GO WITH THAT)



I read that part in Fate/Zero. I wanted to punch Zouken in the face SO bad.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 13, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> Is the Hulk ever likely to reach that level of anger where he can become Emoboy Prime? Not likely.



with the exception of Popeye and Pc superman and maybe he man in one of the comics

Hulks actually one the first heroes to something akin to what SBP did..not necessarily on that level but then again prime himself didn't do that on his own he went to a specific weak point in reality..and did it

where as the others seemed to have done it under their own power...(Hulk I'm iffy on)





skiboydoggy said:


> No it's not. Word of God overrides everything except the actual fiction in question itself.



but if the guy does not show his work..I have a right to call BS on him



skiboydoggy said:


> Somebody who has no flight and ki projection abilities being stronger than Kami? Yeah, go ahead and find feats


.

maybe you misunderstood me but that was me saying Yajirobe should get slaughtered like a pig in a texas slaughterhouse

It's just been for ever since I've read up on kami and don't trust the garlic junior movie so I wanted to be extra sure before I said that




skiboydoggy said:


> Berserker isn't intangible so it doesn't really matter, and Hulk's funky punches in themselves are the reason why Berserker is even getting killed once in the first place. Berserker also exists in *a universe where people can drop the moon on your head for lulz, *so I'm going to say that he can probably stop a planet buster if that's the statement given and the implication of the author when he says that nothing can hurt Berserker.



Hulk sorta lives ina similar universe


skiboydoggy said:


> Hence, one death.




he should based on his highest showings be able to do far far more then that



skiboydoggy said:


> Even if they were talking out of their ass or out of a parasitic loudspeaker embedded in their belly button, so long as it doesn't contradict the actual comic it doesn't really matter.



in some cases it contradicts the comics..in others nothing contradicts it perse' but its patently obvious thats its BS 

in other cases it;s just hilariously wrong..other times one writer gives the previous narrator the middle finger...or the guys subsequently ignored 


hence my issue with statements



skiboydoggy said:


> Hulk isn't a galaxy buster or anywhere near it, so your point is moot. Dark Schneider, TTGL, any of the Choushin, so on and so forth would turn Berserker into mush with a thought.



er..actually....no never mind

as for the second thing I tossed that out there namely to see if I could find an established upper limit



skiboydoggy said:


> No, that's why you're God. Old Testament God was a huge dick, but he's still God.



I would actually get massively cheesed off at my fans if they took every single thing that I said..as canon




skiboydoggy said:


> I think the limits are established just fine. Primary canon (the work of fiction) overrides secondary canon (databooks, interviews, so on), but canon is canon.



it is for the most part but..it seems dangerous to take any form of spoken word over feats


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## Azure Flame Fright (May 13, 2010)

Well, I'd say Immortal Watchdog and I have reached a standstill in the argument, neither of us will make any progress, not due to an inability to comprehend the points being made, but due to an unwillingness to accept the other side's point of view.

From this point, I move to agree to disagree, and if IW wishes to seek a general consensus for this rule, I will make a Meta-Dome thread to deal with it.


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## skiboydoggy (May 13, 2010)

basch71 said:


> I read that part in Fate/Zero. I wanted to punch Zouken in the face SO bad.


I hate everything that Sakura stands for, but I hate Zouken for doing that to her even more. It's gut wrenching, really.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 13, 2010)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Well, I'd say Immortal Watchdog and I have reached a standstill in the argument, neither of us will make any progress, not due to an inability to comprehend the points being made, but due to an unwillingness to accept the other side's point of view.
> 
> From this point, I move to agree to disagree, and if IW wishes to seek a general consensus for this rule, I will make a Meta-Dome thread to deal with it.



we can go ahead and move on..This isn't exactly reaching such a massive shitstorm level where it warrants a meta thread asking for a revision

oh and it's IWD


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 13, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> I hate everything that Sakura stands for, but I hate Zouken for doing that to her even more. It's gut wrenching, really.



The only good guy in the 4th War was Sakura's father. A lot of good that did. Everyone else is either sociopaths, homicidal maniacs or omnicidal sociopaths with God complexes. Kiritsugu is something of a sociopath I believe. He ain't exactly innocent like Fate route Shiro or UBW Shiro.


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## skiboydoggy (May 13, 2010)

basch71 said:


> The only good guy in the 4th War was Sakura's father. A lot of good that did. Everyone else is either sociopaths, homicidal maniacs or omnicidal sociopaths with God complexes. Kiritsugu is something of a sociopath I believe. He ain't exactly innocent like Fate route Shiro or UBW Shiro.


Kiritsugu is a strange case, but there's always Iris and most of the Servants, who were fairly heroic with the exception of Bluebeard.


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## Endless Mike (May 13, 2010)

Watchman said:


> Have you ever heard of this thing called Word of God? It's not simply fallible character statements you're dealing with here, but the actual statements of the creator of the work which have not been shown to be hyperbole a la "Amaterasu is as hot as the sun but fails to even get past Karin's robe"



So if Kishi introduced a new character in the next Naruto chapter, but we only saw him for one panel and he didn't actually do anything, but Kishi stated in the next databook or in an interview that he can easily destroy the universe, you would accept that because nothing contradicts it?

That's not even the main problem here. The problem is that you are using a no - limits fallacy. "He can become completely immune to anything after being hit by it once", these kinds of statements do not apply for crossover battles since the author who wrote that has no jurisdiction over other works of fiction. Obviously he was not considering the possibility of a rage - powered gamma mutate whose punches can warp reality when he wrote that.

Are you saying he could become immune to the Omega Effect, Ultimate Nullifier, Giga Slave, or Light Hawk Wings after being killed by them once?


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## Watchman (May 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> So if Kishi introduced a new character in the next Naruto chapter, but we only saw him for one panel and he didn't actually do anything, but Kishi stated in the next databook or in an interview that he can easily destroy the universe, you would accept that because nothing contradicts it?



Of course not, since Kishi's shown himself not to be a reliable source with previous statements.



> That's not even the main problem here. The problem is that you are using a no - limits fallacy. "He can become completely immune to anything after being hit by it once", these kinds of statements do not apply for crossover battles since the author who wrote that has no jurisdiction over other works of fiction. Obviously he was not considering the possibility of a rage - powered gamma mutate whose punches can warp reality when he wrote that.



Agreed, and I'm not saying he can become completely immune to anything after being hit by it once. I'm saying he gains a _resistance_ to those attacks, which go up to and include the lifewiping Ea. If an attack is stronger than that, then I would immediately agree with you that he has no immunity to it, and with attacks weaker than that but with strange effects, such as Hulk's reality-warping punches (haven't read many Hulk comics aside from Planet Hulk and World War Hulk, I'm afraid), I'd be open to persuasion.



> Are you saying he could become immune to the Omega Effect, Ultimate Nullifier, Giga Slave, or Light Hawk Wings after being killed by them once?



Nope. 

And in any case, with this fight, I do think Hulk can and would win via BFR. Berserker sure as hell doesn't have anything that can keep Hulk down.


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## fullrefund (May 13, 2010)

Hulk win because he get very angry, fight berseker and after a while his strenght get so high that beseker get tossed in space at over escape velocity and after a short while his magus summon in back.

repeat two time again. Magus can't keep berseker because of the lack of command symbols so he disapear after a day or two.

Hulk broken strenght and regeneration could easily allow him to fight in such a way...


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## Endless Mike (May 13, 2010)

Watchman said:


> Of course not, since Kishi's shown himself not to be a reliable source with previous statements.
> 
> Agreed, and I'm not saying he can become completely immune to anything after being hit by it once. I'm saying he gains a _resistance_ to those attacks, which go up to and include the lifewiping Ea. If an attack is stronger than that, then I would immediately agree with you that he has no immunity to it, and with attacks weaker than that but with strange effects, such as Hulk's reality-warping punches (haven't read many Hulk comics aside from Planet Hulk and World War Hulk, I'm afraid), I'd be open to persuasion.



But isn't the power of Ea itself simply based on a statement with no proof? When you're basing one fallacy on another, you have a very shaky argument.


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## Cypher0120 (May 13, 2010)

Nasu is the only one who actually makes statements on his character's powers. He hasn't contradicted himself yet and much of what he shows in the material books, not just about Ea but weapon names and the effects they do. You can't ignore them. What, you want him to write a scene where Gilgamesh destroys Gaia? That's just not practical anymore.

Going with that approach, we can make a Ryougi vs. Servants thread and ignore what Nasu has said because they don't have feats against each other exactly. People would say Ryougi would win, but that's just not true if you look at Word of God.


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## Lina Inverse (May 13, 2010)

A bit off topic, but how many lives do you think a Laguna Blade would take from Berserker?


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## Raigen (May 13, 2010)

All of them. If a fake Excalibur can shave off 5 lives in one go, then something powered by the OAA of the Slayers-verse who beats up, ties down and locks the creator of the series in the bathroom, then I'd say the Laguna/Ragna Blade would rape all his lives. Sure it didn't quite kill Gaav, but then again Gaav would rape the Servants somethin fierce. Dude busted a dimension in the anime and in every form of the series he beats the crap outta Xellos.


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## skiboydoggy (May 13, 2010)

Ahaha Fake Excalibur my ass.


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## Raigen (May 14, 2010)

Hey, Shirou created it, so it was obviously a fake version, and it was powerful enough to knock off 5 of Berserker's lives.


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## skiboydoggy (May 14, 2010)

Excalibur nothing. That was Caliburn.

See, the things you know when you are actually familiar with the fiction in question.


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## Riverlia (May 14, 2010)

-First, It is not Excalibur, it's *Caliburn*, a totally different sword, the sword that chose the King, the one that _Saber pulled out from the stone_, and lost forever when she violated the knight code. Excalibur is the sword _given to her by the Lady of the Lake_ after she lost Caliburn 
-Second, while it's considered weaker than Excalibur, its concept is unknown, and in a battle of Noble Phantasm, a concept that take advantage of another concept's loop hole will win, rank or power does not matter much. 
Example: 
+*Excalibur lost to Fragarach*, a Noble Phantasm with A rank, while Excalibur is A++
+Fragarach vs Gae Bolg, a B rank Noble Phantasm, resulted in a *double K.O*.

-Third, in the same scene that Caliburn killed Berserker 7 times over, if you chose to let Saber use her Excalibur, Berserker *just regenerate, kill Saber, then Rin and Shirou.*
Fake Excalibur woot?


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## Raigen (May 14, 2010)

I was going by the manga, which just makes more sense than the absurd magic ranking system from the game, which basically doesn't prove anything. Their ranking system barely has any sense to it and doesn't even seem to work properly. Compared to the stuff tossed around in Slayers, it's quite meaningless. But that's a different issue.

Either way, wasn't it already decided that Hulk wins?


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## Riverlia (May 14, 2010)

> I was going by the manga, which just makes more sense than the absurd magic ranking system from the game, which basically doesn't prove anything. Their ranking system barely has any sense to it and doesn't even seem to work properly. Compared to the stuff tossed around in Slayers, it's quite meaningless. But that's a different issue.


Which is an adaption of the VN
If the VN-game were nonsense, the manga is also nonsense.
And from what you said, I can say confidently that you didn't even play the game, worse, have no idea what the game was, and doesn't know what a visual novel is. 

Because you understand nothing about the system that govern Nasuverse _does not justify using a lesser canon instead of higher canon_
And it's still Caliburn in the manga, for sanity's sake
You don't even understand the medium you are citing.

Please, don't post more nonsense

And yes, Hulk win, regardless of Words of God being true or not, does not make what you said right.


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## Raigen (May 14, 2010)

I use the manga as it's a straight through story and not a whole bunch of nonsense and 20 different side-stories to get through with a whole ranking game system and GM crap that has no place even being mentioned. Much of it is considered hyperbole since it can't even be demonstrated or proven. It's a major problem. And frankly I'll take reading a real novel over a "visual novel" which is little more than an extended hentai game, without the hentai. As far as it sounds it'd be more like playing Xenosaga, which is more cinematics and story than gameplay or anything else. Only XS is better.


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## Riverlia (May 14, 2010)

> I use the manga as it's a straight through story and not a whole bunch of nonsense and 20 different side-stories to get through with a whole ranking game system and GM crap that has no place even being mentioned. Much of it is considered hyperbole since it can't even be demonstrated or proven. It's a major problem. And frankly I'll take reading a real novel over a "visual novel" which is little more than an extended hentai game, without the hentai. As far as it sounds it'd be more like playing Xenosaga, which is more cinematics and story than gameplay or anything else. Only XS is better.


Your preference does not override the canon priority, nor is it the standard for debate.
And your inability to understand what the system was about does not make it hyperbole, nor does that make the game a lesser canon 

Yes, the characters aren't balanced . Do you know why? balance is only for MMORPG, because people will feel a blow to their ego if they repeatedly lose to another human player who only put equal or less effort into the game.
You cited Xenosaga, good, chaos in Xenosaga can erase the universe, and the only character in the party that can match him is an awakened Kos-Mos. in-plot if chaos never hold himself back, he can solo the entire XS 1 and 2. Game play-wise, you can level your party to god-like level and steam roll the poor grunts and bosses
 Balance? 

P/S: And broken characters in the VN are still broken in the manga, so what the hell is the difference?


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## skiboydoggy (May 14, 2010)

Canon > Raigen's nonsense.


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## Crimson King (May 14, 2010)

Raigen said:


> hurr hurr im butthurt



Guess what dumbass? Each end is canon to the Nasuverse. That includes the bad ends as well.


The VN>>>>Your bullshit


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## Watchman (May 14, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> But isn't the power of Ea itself simply based on a statement with no proof? When you're basing one fallacy on another, you have a very shaky argument.



Again, Word of God. It's a direct statement from the creator himself, not some potentially fallible character statement.



Raigen said:


> I use the manga as it's a straight through story and not a whole bunch of nonsense and 20 different side-stories to get through with a whole ranking game system and GM crap that has no place even being mentioned. Much of it is considered hyperbole since it can't even be demonstrated or proven. It's a major problem. And frankly I'll take reading a real novel over a "visual novel" which is little more than an extended hentai game, without the hentai. As far as it sounds it'd be more like playing Xenosaga, which is more cinematics and story than gameplay or anything else. Only XS is better.



lolRaigen, ignoring canon because he doesn't like it.


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## Raigen (May 14, 2010)

What I'm ignoring is a whole lot of unproven bullshit. The most you can see in F/S is city-buster. Hulk physically knocks around planet-nukers. 90% of what's stated in the VN is unsubstantiated bullcrap. So let's put it this way;

Manga = Less confusion and bullshit


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## ~Greed~ (May 14, 2010)

Raigen said:


> What I'm ignoring is a whole lot of unproven bullshit. The most you can see in F/S is city-buster. Hulk physically knocks around planet-nukers. 90% of what's stated in the VN is unsubstantiated bullcrap. So let's put it this way;
> 
> Manga = Less confusion and bullshit



manga=noncanon.


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## Cypher0120 (May 14, 2010)

Raigen said:


> What I'm ignoring is a whole lot of unproven bullshit. The most you can see in F/S is city-buster. Hulk physically knocks around planet-nukers. 90% of what's stated in the VN is unsubstantiated bullcrap. So let's put it this way;
> 
> Manga = Less confusion and bullshit



If Gilgamesh can beat a 30% Arcueid who can drop the Moon on your head, he's way beyond city-buster in terms of maximum output.

Complexity =/= BS. Just because it's harder to understand doesn't mean it's dismissed.


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## skiboydoggy (May 14, 2010)

Raigen said:


> What I'm ignoring is a whole lot of unproven bullshit. The most you can see in F/S is city-buster. Hulk physically knocks around planet-nukers. 90% of what's stated in the VN is unsubstantiated bullcrap. So let's put it this way;
> 
> Manga = Less confusion and bullshit


The VN>>> Your bullshit.


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## Watchman (May 14, 2010)

Raigen said:


> What I'm ignoring is a whole lot of unproven bullshit. The most you can see in F/S is city-buster. Hulk physically knocks around planet-nukers. 90% of what's stated in the VN is unsubstantiated bullcrap. So let's put it this way;
> 
> Manga = Less confusion and bullshit



You're ignoring statements directly from the creator of the series which have not been contradicted in any way throughout the VN.

Also lol@ "Less Confusion".

Is the Visual Novel too complex for you, Raigen? 

In any case, it doesn't really matter what medium you prefer - the Visual Novel is the primary canon, the Manga is an adaptation. Ergo, the manga does not override the visual novel.


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## Red (May 14, 2010)

Raigen said:


> I was going by the manga, which just makes more sense than the absurd magic ranking system from the game, which basically doesn't prove anything. *Their ranking system barely has any sense* to it and doesn't even seem to work properly. Compared to the stuff tossed around in Slayers, it's quite meaningless. But that's a different issue.


What do you mean? They have a really simple A-E grading system, common use of elemental magic (fire,water etc) and pretty much various characteristics of popular folklore and myth. The hierarchy is well established with Nasu chipping in when things get too complicated. The only things I can say that are confusing are the great magics, ether and the 6th imaginary element.

Dude, you can prefer the manga and even make battles with manga versions if it explicitly stated in the OP but this battle and all the elements associated with it is specifically about the main canon. Don't be unreasonable.


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## Riverlia (May 14, 2010)

> If Gilgamesh can beat a 30% Arcueid who can drop the Moon on your head, he's way beyond city-buster in terms of maximum output.


Who want to bet we are getting a ' @dropping the moon on your head@ is a hyperbole'?


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## Crimson King (May 14, 2010)

Kinda hard to call it hyperbole when Arc has done it in game and in manga.


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## Red (May 14, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Kinda hard to call it hyperbole when Arc has done it in game and in manga.


Silly Crimson, that's not the real moon, that's a Styrofoam replica filled with helium and fairy tears (the lightest material on earth.)

The fun part about screaming hyperbole and demanding on panel feats while ignoring WoG and canon is that if there IS any on panel feats you can just downplay it by capitalizing on the depiction (AH HA, the moon in this feat is not a 1:1 scale ratio of the actual moon and the perspective is out of whack, must be a really big rock or sumthing.)


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## Juri (May 14, 2010)

Red said:


> Silly Crimson, that's not the real moon, that's a Styrofoam replica filled with helium and fairy tears (the lightest material on earth.)
> 
> The fun part about screaming hyperbole and demanding on panel feats while ignoring WoG and canon is that if there IS any on panel feats you can just downplay it by capitalizing on the depiction (AH HA, the moon in this feat is not a 1:1 scale ratio of the actual moon and the perspective is out of whack, *must be a really big rock or sumthing.*)



It _is_ a really big rock. :ho


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## bluedogma (May 14, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> But isn't the power of Ea itself simply based on a statement with no proof? When you're basing one fallacy on another, you have a very shaky argument.



It's proven in Fate Zero where he destabilizes Rider's RM not by tearing the fake reality asunder but by killing all of his army and destroying the prana supply for holding up the RM as a consequence of opening some kind of black hole or vacuum layer which was moments away from completely destroying the world.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 15, 2010)

Cycloid said:


> It _is_ a really big rock. :ho



So...Crimson Moon drops the moon on Zeltrech over a minor dispute (talk about extreme) is considered a hyperbole?


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## Riverlia (May 15, 2010)

> So...Crimson Moon drops the moon on Zeltrech over a minor dispute (talk about extreme) is considered a hyperbole?


Consider that 'minor dispute' escalated into someone get moon reverse-smashed in his face, someone get killed, someone get turned into a vampire and aged drastically, it's a massive hyperbole.
Not the 'drop the moon part', I mean the 'minor' part.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 15, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> Consider that 'minor dispute' escalated into someone get moon reverse-smashed in his face, someone get killed, someone get turned into a vampire and aged drastically, it's a massive hyperbole.
> Not the 'drop the moon part', I mean the 'minor' part.



I know. When I read it was a minor dispute, I was like goddamn.


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## Red (May 15, 2010)

Cycloid said:


> It _is_ a really big rock. :ho


 

**


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