# Tsunade vs Taijutsu/CQC Specialists



## OG Appachai (Jul 1, 2014)

Curious to see how people see her in close combat and if she really deserves a 5 in taijutsu

This is not a gauntlet, Taijutsu/CQC only

Location: chunin exams arena
Distance: 5 meters
Knowledge: none other that partial knowledge of taijutsu prowess, Opponents know of her strength.
Restrictions: byakugou or healing in general, summoning , Samehada chakra drain, raiton flow, Tailed beast transformation, Cs2, Gates

Opponents:
Kimimaro(no sickness)
Neji Hyuuga
Kisame
Killer Bee
Maito Gai

Bonus: Drunk Lee


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## trance (Jul 1, 2014)

Is Kimimaro sick or healthy?


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## OG Appachai (Jul 1, 2014)

Healthy, i edited OP


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## FlamingRain (Jul 1, 2014)

Tsunade beats Kimimaro, Neji, Kisame, and drunk Lee restricted or not.

Restricted Killer Bee > _Byakugō_ Tsunade > Cloaked Bee, however strangely.

_Byakugō_ Tsunade > Gated Gai > restricted Tsunade > restricted Gai.


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## ARGUS (Jul 1, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> Kimimaro(no sickness)


Tsunade pulverises him


> Neji Hyuuga


Neji is not defending himself against susanoo cracking punches,, he gets wrecked


> Kisame


if samehada is restricted,, then Kisame would lose,,, 


> Killer Bee


Killer Bee wins, his sword movements are far too non-linear, and his speed is higher than tsunade meaning that tsunade is getting stabbed with blades and hit with lariats


> Maito Gai


Tsunade wins, sshe needs a couple of hits to end him,,,,,


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Restricted Killer Bee > _Byakugō_ Tsunade > Cloaked Bee, however strangely.



I don't understand.

Unless you mean that B can only defeat Tsunade by using his hurricane-like blade attacks, but essentially loses that ability once in the cloaked form when he becomes a brawler, or in essence a worse version of Tsunade.

Then I can kinda understand.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 1, 2014)

That's exactly what I meant, Rocky.

His cloaked form is technically stronger than his base form, but his predilection to advance with a berserker approach in that form doesn't match up as well against Tsunade in particular as his swords dance does.


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## OG Appachai (Jul 1, 2014)

thought it over, gonna take off second scenario. defeats purpose of the thread

@FlamingRain care to explain how she beats these opponents in cqc?


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## Bonly (Jul 1, 2014)

I can see her beating Drunk Lee and Neji more times then not and that's about it


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## Veracity (Jul 1, 2014)

Clears.

The only challenge really here would be killer bee with his blade dance that could fuck Tsuande up if she doesn't kill him before he realizes he needs to behead her.

Base Gai lacks the output to destroy Tsuande in CQC, and although he's superior taijustu wise, he eventually gets tapped and killed.

Kisame is idk tbh. Waterdome and drowning her are his only chances . Without that he gets slaughtered.

Neji , Lee , and Kimmi are all fodder in the eyes of a Hokage. nuff said.


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## OG Appachai (Jul 1, 2014)

read op homie, no byakugou


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## Veracity (Jul 1, 2014)

Yes I've read it. She doesn't need it for most of the battles considering none of the opponents bar bee and possibly Kisame have the offensive output to put down Tsuande + Sozo Saisei.


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## OG Appachai (Jul 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yes I've read it. She doesn't need it for most of the battles considering none of the opponents bar bee and possibly Kisame have the offensive output to put down Tsuande + Sozo Saisei.


 guess "taijutsu only" has to be explained more


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## Veracity (Jul 1, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> guess "taijutsu only" has to be explained more



I guess it does. If it's taijustu only then why restrict a specific type of medical Ninjustu ? Why not just restrict everything except taijustu and kenjustu ?


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## OG Appachai (Jul 2, 2014)

wanted to be specific because gates and cs2 are kinjutsu and gai and kimis moves are still classified as taijutsu along with the mentioned powerups and as with  with raiton flow and samehada's chakra drain are a part of their respective owners CQC moveset too

But blah blah, no need to nit pick OP bro, you get the general focus of the thread.

On Topic tsunade probably loses to all bar kisame (arguably) and drunk lee


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## Van Konzen (Jul 2, 2014)

Hiashi  would give dat version of Tsunade a run for her money..


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## Veracity (Jul 2, 2014)

Well in that case she only looses to Gai and killer bee. 

• Kisame is absolutely murdered  in CQC against someone that can one shot him. 
• If rusty and injured Tsuande could blitz the Oro that went  go toe to toe with 4k Naruto then healthy Tsuande can blitz Lee, Kimmi, and Neji in CQC. They all get sent to the rape shed.

Edit: She beats base Gai also considering he cannot one shot her and she can canonically can make shockwaves of this level by simply punching the ground:*'you're strong'*.


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## Mercurial (Jul 2, 2014)

Bee and especially Gai fodderstomp her. The speed and skill gap is abysmal.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 2, 2014)

> Kimimaro(no sickness)


Destroys him in less than 5 seconds. 



> Neji Hyuuga


Destroys him in less than 4 seconds. 



> Kisame


Could go either way depending on who tags who first. Kisame reacted to V1 Bee in close quarters, and stripped part of his cloak from him. Though, Tsunade survived against several V3 Susano Edo Rinnegan Mokuton Clones for an extended period and actually hit one in the chest, obliterating it. She also blitzed Manda while carrying a blade the size of a building, and punched Madara's katons away with ease when no other kage reacted. Her striking of Madara's Susano in mid-air before lightened Raikage could is also highly impressive. 



> Killer Bee


She loses here, Killer Bee deliberately aims to avoid her fists in sword dance and he eventually stabs her enough times to put her down. Throwing of the blades will also be difficult to defend against, though it's likely she simple strikes the thrown blades destroying them. 



> Maito Gai


Gai wins here, his chucks will damage her enough to put her down. He's shown extreme efficiency in their use against Obito's unpredictable Kamui blitzing so he can effectively avoid her fists with the chucks. 

Of course, Tsunade has a chance in all of these scenarios. If the opponent thinks she is done fighting (as Orochimaru and Kabuto did) she can easily land a surprise strike- and it only takes one to kill everyone of these ninja. With her high-level pain tolerance and life force, it's not crazy to think she could play dead and be successful in this regard.


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## Veo (Jul 2, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I can see her beating Drunk Lee and Neji more times then not and that's about it


Oh come on, drunken Lee may present a challenge since he's a beast in CQC, but Neji gets utterly destroyed against Tsunade.


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## Bonly (Jul 2, 2014)

Veo said:


> Oh come on, drunken Lee may present a challenge since he's a beast in CQC, but Neji gets utterly destroyed against Tsunade.



That's pretty neat, glad you agree with the end result.


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## LostSelf (Jul 2, 2014)

She beats Neji, Lee and Kimimaro due to tanking attacks and hitting them.

I have not seen Tsunade with the taijutsu skills to compete with a man that strikes so fast that he can prevent to be warped, something not even Hokage Minato could accomplish without Hiraishin.

Therefore, since Tsunade is not taking Gai's hits like Perfect Cell took Krillin's, she is defeated in taijutsu once Gai brings out Soushuga. 

I am not sure with Kisame. He should lose more times than not.

Bee defeats her too with his multiple swords dance.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 2, 2014)

Tsunade's combat ability was revered as legendary even before she gained regeneration, and clearly her _5_ in taijutsu was a contributing factor to that.

She struggles a bit with Kimimaro, but doesn't sustain any critical injuries and eventually lands a blow. 

She destroys Neji, his pokes do very little to her and she retaliates quickly, catching him off guard and annihilating him. 

She takes out Kisame as well, after she disarms him of Samehada. Blunt force trauma won't do a whole lot to her, given how resilient and durable she is.

Killer Bee's speed and sword style is too much for Tsunade though, and since he has knowledge on her strength, while she has no knowledge at all on his sword style, he'll know to keep as much distance from her as possible, while she remains disadvantaged. 

Gai is generally better at taijutsu than Tsunade is - he's mastered more styles and has a more complex moveset, but Tsunade is very resilient and quite durable. While he is aware of her strength and will probably use attacks that keep her out of arms length (the likes of Leaf Whirlwind, for instance) he won't know that she can recover and retaliate quickly after being hit. If she plays her cards right she can land a grazing blow, which is enough to slow Gai down enough to make a difference in her follow up attacks. This could go either way I guess, but ultimately I just don't see Gai's rock busting strikes doing a lot to her, at least not unless he lands multiple direct hits, which I don't see happening. On the other hand, her strikes will definitely slow him down even if it's just a finger poke. I edge it towards Tsunade, but like I said, Gai could win.​​


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## Jad (Jul 2, 2014)

I used to believe a grazing blow might be enough. But now quite honestly, without being able to activate the seal on her head, those grazing blows shouldn't slow Gai down. I mean this guy was pretty much dieing on the spot using the 8th Gate, the pain was so high, but he brushed it off, even when in krisppy mode to continue his final attack. And this might actually be a testament to his durability, but Gai's strongest last gated move was the one that broke his leg, despite everything else. The guy took a Hirudora [Failed] in the face and needed some recover time, and was good to go.

So yeah, 
awesome durability
massively resilient
reflexes fast enough to fully utilize the gates at the highest stage
boulder shattering strength (not mere lunks of rock)  that even impressed Obito for what it is worth
the ability to use Soshuuga so accurately and skillfully that he outperformed everyone that has faced Obito in CQC
master of taijutsu in the databook and naruto universe
is the much faster opponent
can move in-between a Kamui warp of his Soshuuga.
Your not getting any better then the all rounder, the king of Taijutsu in this manga. To me the answer is clear as the colour of the sky when it comes to Gai. I mean you pair Gai up with an opponent whose best Taijutsu _manevours_ come from Part -1 Kabuto and losing on that end, and the rest of her linear punches.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 2, 2014)

she stops at Mifune & never starts


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## LostSelf (Jul 3, 2014)

Jad said:


> I used to believe a grazing blow might be enough. But now quite honestly, without being able to activate the seal on her head, those grazing blows shouldn't slow Gai down. I mean this guy was pretty much dieing on the spot using the 8th Gate, the pain was so high, but he brushed it off, even when in krisppy mode to continue his final attack. And this might actually be a testament to his durability, but Gai's strongest last gated move was the one that broke his leg, despite everything else. The guy took a Hirudora [Failed] in the face and needed some recover time, and was good to go.
> 
> So yeah,
> awesome durability
> ...



His Taijutsu skills's feats becomes incredibly better when, in the same fight, you have Obito fodderizing a KCM Clone and almost fodderizing the real KCM Naruto in less than a second almost the same way Tsunade fodderzied genin Naruto. Yet, Gai even in mid-air and counter attacking _after_ Obito began to counter attack, without Gai finishing his first strike was able to put him into the defensive.

That's pretty impressive and let's you wonder what might've happened if Gai was in gated mode  in this skirmish.

I never followed Gai's durability feats before, because most of the times i rely on him beating his opponents, etc. But to be able to fight like nothing using bone shattering gates and to take that pain that by his own admission, is too great, coupled that in the eight gate he still went on against the outstanding pain, yeah, the man is resilient and durable. He might feel the graze of Tsunade. But i doubt that would slow down him much if the effects of using gates for some days straight didn't.


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## Jad (Jul 3, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> His Taijutsu skills's feats becomes incredibly better when, in the same fight, you have Obito fodderizing a KCM Clone and almost fodderizing the real KCM Naruto in less than a second almost the same way Tsunade fodderzied genin Naruto. Yet, Gai even in mid-air and counter attacking _afte_ Obito began to counter attack, without Gai finishing his first strike was able to put him into the defensive.
> 
> That's pretty impressive and let's you wonder what might've happened if Gai was in gated mode  in this skirmish.



I mean I always use this as an example. But KCM Naruto dodged a swipe from Itachi Uchiha [second panel], but in the same vein could not do so against Obito Uchiha [2]. You are right. My gripe with people that discuss Gai frankly, and it's just personally what I view; but they neglect Gai in base simply because everything is overshadowed by his ability in the Gates. However, the key importance is, Gai can't do ALL of those magnificent things he does in the Gates, those top-tier Taijutsu maneuvers, without first having first class *base stats*: taijutsu ability, speed, strength, resiliency, durability and reflexes (etc...) The databook literally calls Gai *the best Taijutsu user in the village*, even when someone like Hiashi who exists also has a 5 in the stat [databook].​


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## FlamingRain (Jul 3, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> @FlamingRain care to explain how she beats these opponents in cqc?




*Spoiler*: _vs. Kimi_ 




Concerning pure martial arts skill: They both prioritize reading into and anticipating the enemy's attacks in order to more effectively retaliate with their own, however Tsunade should be even more knowledgeable and familiar with body dynamics and mechanics not only due to her status as the world's greatest medical ninja but also due to having more years of experience under her belt than Kimimaro has years of even being alive period and being at least a tier and a half more intelligent than he is, which I'd imagine would be a prominent factor in analytical skills.

So that's one for one.

Then we move on to lethality: Tsunade may not sprout bones from all over her body like Kimimaro does, but pretty much every part of her body is a weapon nonetheless as she should be able to exert her magnified strength (which is already high enough to one-shot the vast majority of the cast, including Kimi, even without the augmentation) from anywhere her Keirakukei and Tenketsu run. Unreadable range through terrain altering is every bit as hard to anticipate as Kimimaro's sprouting bones, and then there's the issue of her being able to disregard a mere stabbing (or even several) from Kimimaro to continue attacking while the same can't be said for him about even one of her strikes.

A~~nd two for two. Tsunade steamrolls Kimi.





*Spoiler*: _vs. Neji_ 





Tsunade's possession of natural strength sufficient to demolish alleyways even while two decades out of shape, in addition to her inhuman resilience, negates any stylistic advantage Jyūken would normally have afforded the Hyūga prodigy against someone. She can even turn a _Kaiten_ into his own death when she rips open the fissure that can become Neji's grave beneath him, though we can simplify all of this and just say that he's only got a 4.5 to her 5 and has to land well over 300 hits to her one. So he also gets wrecked, and even worse than Kimi.





*Spoiler*: _vs. Kisame_ 





Kisame is a less skillful and strength-based fighter who relies on overwhelming his enemy with superior physical power and shielding with Samehada in the meantime instead of relying on a particularly great amount of mobility. That's outright suicide against Tsunade of all people who hits like a falling comet and can bust either Samehada or Kisame into nice little pieces of sharkskin upon impact without exuding a Chakra shroud.

He's having his primary style crippled due to a large disparity in strength not in his favor this time, so I'm not really seeing how he doesn't manage to get himself murked here.





*Spoiler*: _vs. Drunk Lee_ 





Drunk Lee is kind of?.drunk?so even if he does know of her strength, he might not alter his fighting style accordingly. The tricks he used against Kimimaro would be disastrous for his own person: one was a serial of kicks while doing a handstand of all things (during which he remained virtually rooted in place), and on two other occasions he opted for catching Kimimaro's strikes even when he wasn't in a situation where dodging was necessarily ruled out (Heaven help the man who tries catching Tsunade's shots with no advanced defenses). I doubt the habit vanished over the time-skip given Gai's propensity to block against opponents as well even though he's far more advanced- it's likely just his particular style.





*Spoiler*: _vs. Gai_ 





Gai has shattered boulders with his nun-chucks, but Tsunade has been hit by projectiles so hard that she gets flung into boulders hard enough to shatter them and yet the lady still comes out of it just fine, and even when she's actually injured she keeps leaping around and attacking like nothing has happened to her. In addition to that she also breaks Susano'o weapons, which are outright better than any nun-chucks, while Dynamic Entry and a number of the green beast's other techniques are aerial and thus poor choices of attack because Tsunade won't go flying like a normal person unless she's already in the air for whatever reason and he can't even back out of danger when he's airborne. So while his hits can hurt I doubt he's going to get anywhere with them quickly enough to put her down before he himself gets tagged through terrain destruction intentional and inadvertent or Tsunade simply allowing herself to get struck so that she can simultaneously take advantage of Gai's forced close-proximity in order to snag him with another of her famous one-and-done shots.

It's simply a waiting game for the minute when Tsunade inevitably manages to tag and subsequently kill him with that one hit that matters.


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## Van Konzen (Jul 4, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> She destroys Neji, *his pokes do very little to her* and she retaliates quickly, catching him off guard and annihilating him. ​




Neji may have the slimmest chance of landing a juuken attack to Tsunade 
but saying Juuken attack would do very little damage with this version Tsunade with no healing
capabilities is completely dumbfounded.. 

Even Hashirama himself attempted killing himself with a Kunai..
no regen capabilities = mere human.. 

not that I'm saying Neji would win this though.. ​


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## OG Appachai (Jul 4, 2014)

redfang45 said:


> but saying Juuken attack would do very little damage with this version Tsunade with no healing
> capabilities is completely dumbfounded..
> 
> Even Hashirama himself attempted killing himself with a Kunai..
> ...


agreed some ppl are underestimting neji's taijutsu in this thread, the fast jabs versus wide looping punches is a pretty good advantage in cqc. add in kaiten and thats a pretty good defense too. gentle fist is def doing damaga to tsunade, 64 palms and its over.

neji has more than a slim chance i'd like to say though


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## FlamingRain (Jul 4, 2014)

Neji's jabs aren't going to hurt more than being shot at light-speed, and Tsunade had no problem coordinating attacks under that pressure. Heck, they shouldn't even hurt more than Kabuto's dissection blades.

No way in heck is Neji getting through that entire string of several dozens of hits without getting his face blasted off, and Kaiten just results in Tsunade ripping open the ground and closing it after Neji falls in.


Finally, can someone _please_ enlighten me as to what "mere human" can get themselves _split in half_ only to be worried about _other people_?


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## OG Appachai (Jul 4, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Neji's jabs aren't going to hurt more than being shot at light-speed, and Tsunade had no problem coordinating attacks under that pressure. Heck, they shouldn't even hurt more than Kabuto's dissection blades.



that teleportation jutsu did nothing but flesh wounds on tsunade, gentle fist target internal organs and destroy them. The pain is only a part of the issue. No one is saying that tsunade is going to collapse from the pain of getting poked shes going to collapse from liver failure, ruptured stomach, destroyed kidneys and a stopped heart i guess these count as internal organs right?



FlamingRain said:


> No way in heck is Neji getting through that entire string of several dozens of hits without getting his face blasted off,



wait, tsunade has never put together a taijutsu combo with successive punches right after another, her entire moveset is just 1 punch *miss* 1 punch *miss* occasional kick *miss* that seems very basic to me. no way in heck is she even touching him.

And neji's reflexes are more than enough to keep himself from getting hit from wide looping punches that require you to cock-back and let go, Neji has the speed advantage and style advantage, tsunade punches once neji jabs 4 times and dodges, with knowledge of her strength neji would be even more observant until shes down for the count. Tsunade has a better option in punching the ground creating debris but that wouldnt mean much seeing as the byakugan gives 360 degree vision and therefore seing everything coming at him a mile away.



FlamingRain said:


> and Kaiten just results in Tsunade ripping open the ground and closing it after Neji falls in.



kaiten is a defensive technique that deflects attacks,no way in hell neji would use it out in the open with nothing coming  at him. he would use it if hes somehow in a sticky situation if hes about to get tagged, kaiten can deflect juubi limbs, kaiten will deflect her punches and knock her back. Oh and didnt know tsunade had earth affinity and all with her closing the ground and what not lol 




FlamingRain said:


> Finally, can someone _please_ enlighten me as to what "mere human" can get themselves _split in half_ only to be worried about _other people_?


she was ready to die to save her comrades i guess, even so she was still incapacitated either way


EDIT: Oh Boy dont let me get started with gai lol


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## Veracity (Jul 4, 2014)

Tsunade has the durabilty to tank Yasaka Magnata with no damage. She is far more durable then the average Shinobi.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 5, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> that teleportation jutsu did nothing but flesh wounds on tsunade, gentle fist target internal organs and destroy them. The pain is only a part of the issue.



Her _entire_ body was transmitted, and if it didn't affect her innards too she wouldn't have had blood flowing out of her mouth and her kick would have blasted Madara apart.



> No one is saying that tsunade is going to collapse from the pain of getting poked shes going to collapse from liver failure, ruptured stomach, destroyed kidneys and a stopped heart i guess these count as internal organs right?



No, no she's not. Bro, do you even know who Tsunade is?

You must have forgotten out-of-shape and out-of-breath Tsunade's ability to keep moving around with surprising maneuverability after having her biceps brachii, rectus femoris, and intercostal muscles severed, her heart impaled, and finally her shoulder, chest, and ribs slashed.

You must have also forgotten about her ability to continue smashing through _Susano'o_ and its weapons after being pierced through her midsection which is chockfull of organs and where her spine would have been by multiple swords the width of her waist (Even though _Byakugō_ was active, there is only so much regeneration that could have occurred while the objects were still lodged within her, meaning the feat couldn't have been reliant upon it).



> wait, tsunade has never put together a taijutsu combo with successive punches right after another, her entire moveset is just 1 punch *miss* 1 punch *miss* occasional kick *miss* that seems very basic to me. no way in heck is she even touching him.



_*1.)*_ That has nothing to do what I said. My point is that she could outright ignore _Neji's_ string of hits long enough to simply continue her attack.

_*2.)*_ Drunk, way out-of-shape and extremely rusty Tsunade confiscated Naruto's kunai, knocked off his headband and flicked him back into the spot directly in front of where his kunai would land, apparently while jacking his wallet somewhere in that, all in succession. You don't think that she can hastily repeat a punching motion? It's just that Tsunade typically doesn't need to strike in succession because the first time she hits something it either dies or goes flying several hundred meters away, not that she simply cannot or will not.



> And neji's reflexes are more than enough to keep himself from getting hit from wide looping punches that require you to cock-back and let go, Neji has the speed advantage and style advantage, tsunade punches once neji jabs 4 times and dodges



"Require"?

She didn't "cock back" with her back-kick, shoulder charge, or _Ranshinshō_ against Kabuto, nor in decking Orochimaru before and after _Sōzō Saisei_.

If you're suggesting the Chakra-augmentation requires additional time and necessitates she rear back so that it can take effect, that'd be incorrect; kneading it is instant and releasing it is done only upon impact- thus it can be performed in the same time it would take to perform a striking motion without it. Tis how Sakura destroyed the Kazekage puppet so quickly when it approached her and why Tsunade wasn't seen rearing back whenever she was attacking ribcage _Susano'o_.

Her natural strength is sufficient to one-shot Neji, though, and it's what strips him of his "style advantage" alongside her insanely high resilience.

As for a speed advantage? When the flip did Neji display anything that even made him _as fast as_ Tsunade?

Neji tries attacking, Tsunade punches once and Neji gets caught and dies. His knowledge is irrelevant.



> kaiten is a defensive technique that deflects attacks,no way in hell neji would use it out in the open with nothing coming  at him.



Alright? How does this go against anything I've claimed thus far?



> he would use it if hes somehow in a sticky situation if hes about to get tagged



Yeah.

It's just that Tsunade's reaction timing and foresight are more than sufficient to see and anticipate Neji attempting to enact the rotation (he has to start before she reaches his position so that he's already spinning by the time she connects) and accordingly redirect her strike downwards though.

About the closing the ground comment- I was exaggerating outside of the video games, but I'm sure you get the point. Tsunade advances, Neji starts the process, Tsunade plants her foot into the ground before hitting Neji and Neji falls into the crevice. It's that simple.



> she was ready to die to save her comrades i guess, even so she was still incapacitated either way



No, she said her body could wait, not to forget about it. She was willing to put off healing herself because she knew she'd survive long enough to heal the other Kages first.

Anyways, the fact that she even survived it in the first place and especially for as long as she did disproves the "mere human without regeneration" notion.



Neji can't win.


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## trance (Jul 5, 2014)

Bee and Gai annihilate. Lee, Neji and Kimimaro lose. Kisame loses too.


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## Dr. White (Jul 5, 2014)

Neji can't beat Tsunade more often than not but that match would be funny as hell to watch because until he severely tires out, he is going to be dancing around Tsunade similar to how Neji did to Naruto's clones in pt. 1. She can try and smash the ground but Neji will see her going for ground smash and shushin away.

Neji can keep her at bay with Air Palm (which should be around Hiashi level), take away her ability to form chakra for her strength, while simultaneously destroying her innards.

Actually Neji can beat Base Tsunade, but with Yin seal and or Byakugou she can break the Jyuuken spell (like how Naruto did with Kyuubi) and heal while gaining much more strength and speed.


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## Veracity (Jul 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Neji can't beat Tsunade more often than not but that match would be funny as hell to watch because until he severely tires out, he is going to be dancing around Tsunade similar to how Neji did to Naruto's clones in pt. 1. She can try and smash the ground but Neji will see her going for ground smash and shushin away.
> 
> Neji can keep her at bay with Air Palm (which should be around Hiashi level), take away her ability to form chakra for her strength, while simultaneously destroying her innards.
> 
> Actually Neji can beat Base Tsunade, but with Yin seal and or Byakugou she can break the Jyuuken spell (like how Naruto did with Kyuubi) and heal while gaining much more strength and speed.



That's not going to happen at all LOL. Unless you believe Neji has reactions better then 4k battling Oro then he gets blitzed as soon as he engages in CQC.


You are really funny saying some Jounin has better and not only better but combat skill great enough to dance around a Sannin lol. You don't Tsuande.


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## Dr. White (Jul 5, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> That's not going to happen at all LOL. Unless you believe Neji has reactions better then 4k battling Oro then he gets blitzed as soon as he engages in CQC.


Neji is one of the best Taijutsu fighters in Konoha, Tsunade is not more skilled in Taijutsu than him. Just like KN1 Naruto is not more skilled in taijutsu than Pt. 1 Neji. There is a difference between skill and combat ability. Neji's byakugan, reactions, and fighting style are fit perfect to shut down her chakra punches.

Neji can also use Rotation barrier should he ever be struck to defend/send some power back at Tsunade.



> You are really funny saying some Jounin has better and not only better but combat skill great enough to dance around a Sannin lol. You don't Tsuande.


Why do you think she is gifted in taijutsu? She may be versed but from a pure skill level she shows nothing that impressive. Being a Sannin doesn't give you a skeleton key argument, you have to prove why Tsunade would even hold a candle to him. Freaking crappy ass Kabuto was outpacing her. I don't wanna hear the "Rusty" or "out of shape" bit because she was still a Sannin. People also like to use her feats despite Oro being armless in the Sannin fight. 

You are crazy if you think Tsunade is low diff'ing Neji.

IMO Neji beats her high - extreme diff 6/10 times. (with no Yin seal/Byakugou)


----------



## Veracity (Jul 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Neji is one of the best Taijutsu fighters in Konoha, Tsunade is not more skilled in Taijutsu than him. Just like KN1 Naruto is not more skilled in taijutsu than Pt. 1 Neji. There is a difference between skill and combat ability. Neji's byakugan, reactions, and fighting style are fit perfect to shut down her chakra punches.
> 
> Neji can also use Rotation barrier should he ever be struck to defend/send some power back at Tsunade.
> 
> ...



Just saying Neji is something doesn't prove diddly squat. List something to prove his:
? skill
? speed
? reactions.

You can name all the abilities of Neji you want to, but if he gets blitzed as soon as he gets close to Tsuande then it doesn't matter. 

Why do I think Tsuande is skilled in taijustu ? Because every Sannin member is legendary and excels in atleast one thing. Tsunades skill is CQC battling and she trumps any other Sannin in that regard( mind you Oro could CQC stalemate a 4k Naruto). She also has hype from Jirayia saying she's unparalleled in combat, a 5 tier in taijustu, and the ability to CQC battle 5 sussanos for hours....

You are also one of those people that think just because a ninja is flipping and twisting while fighting that he is a good CQC fighter . No. You can have a straight forrward combat style and still kick ass( Hulk , Broly , captain America) . 

You gonna sit her and ask for reasons for Tsuande to compete with Neji , while not providing a single feat for Neji and downplaying Tsuande while using her rusty , exhausted , and part 1 feats ? That's cute.

No. You realize that Kabuto directly said that he needed to he stood no chance with rusty Tsuande in CQC and had to exhaust her to even try to fight: 2

Now Kabuto who is already on Kakashis level had to pop a soldier pill( increases all his stats) to fight against a Pre- exhausted Rusty Tsunade. Then at the end of the day he still got blitzed here: 2 and was Completley saved by PIS? Now to add on to that , you have to realize that Tsuande wasn't even giving it her all until she got over her phobia in which she blitzed Oro and one paneled Manda. 

Her being rusty and exhausted would affect her CQC ability would it not ? 

Oro not having arms doesn't mean anything if you actually know what the feats was.

Exhausted and rusty Tsunade from a floored position with her internal organs destroyed was able to blitz Oro to the point where he couldn't even move his body: 2

You aren't arguing against this. Arm or not if oro wasn't able to move his damn legs or move his neck to not by his face caved in then he got outright blitzed.

So until you provide a reaction feat for Neji to assume he doesn't get outright blitzed by a healthy not exhausted Tsuande then he gets low difficultied and you have no argument against it.


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## Dr. White (Jul 5, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Just saying Neji is something doesn't prove diddly squat. List something to prove his:
> 
> 
> > ? skill
> ...


----------



## Veracity (Jul 5, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Likes boss said:
> 
> 
> > Just saying Neji is something doesn't prove diddly squat. List something to prove his:
> ...


----------



## OG Appachai (Jul 6, 2014)

Thanks Dr.White for keeping the thread alive while i was at work all day lol




FlamingRain said:


> Her _entire_ body was transmitted, and if it didn't affect her innards too she wouldn't have had blood flowing out of her mouth and her kick would have blasted Madara apart.


literally anything other than organ damage could have made her bleed out the mouth, heck a cut tounge or cuts in the mouth could have caused that. Youre implying tsunade can survive complete organ damage in base? So what if her whole body was sent through? That doesnt prove anything. Are you saying that because mabui's jutsu didnt harm her much that gentle fist wont work on her? The fact of the matter is mabui's jutsu and the gentle fist style are 2 different things, Tensō no Jutsu is stated to "rip to shreds" any normal ninja, That has nothing to do with Neji closing tenketsu thus effecting internal organs. One cannot tank gentle fist shots.




FlamingRain said:


> You must have forgotten out-of-shape and out-of-breath Tsunade's ability to keep moving around with surprising maneuverability after having her biceps brachii, rectus femoris, and intercostal muscles severed, her heart impaled, and finally her shoulder, chest, and ribs slashed.


 
First of all her heart was not pierced, thats a blatant lie, and i agree she was still maneuverable no one is doubting that, youre going off topic. Serious gentle fist strikes are doing more than creating flesh wounds, they are destroying internal organs, none of which oro did to her in that fight.



FlamingRain said:


> You must have also forgotten about her ability to continue smashing through _Susano'o_ and its weapons after being pierced through her midsection which is chockfull of organs and where her spine would have been by multiple swords the width of her waist (Even though _Byakugō_ was active, there is only so much regeneration that could have occurred while the objects were still lodged within her, meaning the feat couldn't have been reliant upon it).



Off topic again no one is doubting her pain threshold. But yet You clearly see tsunade collapsing from the pain the moment she removed them in the next page. And she doesnt get up until shes done healing serveral pages later. And yes byakugou was a major help in keeping her alive at that point, its auto regen thats what its does, *keeps you alive*. theres no way she can pull this off without byakugou.

But forget all that, tsunade doesnt have access to her jutsu in this taijutsu fight, so telling me about byakugou feats is null. She will be collapsing and from organ failure in this fight. 




FlamingRain said:


> _*1.)*_ That has nothing to do what I said. My point is that she could outright ignore _Neji's_ string of hits long enough to simply continue her attack.



Yes it does have something to do with what you just said, you stated that "No way in heck is Neji getting through that entire string of several dozens of hits" When in fact she has  never shown to string together successive punches. And she can ignore things all she wants neji's attacks are still doing damage to her innards until shes dead.



FlamingRain said:


> _*2.)*_ Drunk, way out-of-shape and extremely rusty Tsunade confiscated Naruto's kunai, knocked off his headband and flicked him back into the spot directly in front of where his kunai would land, apparently while jacking his wallet somewhere in that, all in succession.



Drunk? Nah seemed pretty coherent to me from beginning to the end of the encounter with naruto. Out of shape or not, landing hits on genin ninja with basically no taijutsu skill is childs play. She wasnt even serious against naruto anyway. She has never done that combo in a real battle or anything even close to that in a real battle.




FlamingRain said:


> You don't think that she can hastily repeat a punching motion? It's just that Tsunade typically doesn't need to strike in succession because the first time she hits something it either dies or goes flying several hundred meters away, not that she simply cannot or will not.



She didnt do it against kabuto, orochimaru, madara or even his clones. So no i dont think she can purely beacause of he brawling style, evey punch or kick we've seen has had some sort of  elongated motion with a heavy follow-through to thus making it impossible for her to string together fast punches like that..



FlamingRain said:


> "Require"?
> 
> She didn't "cock back" with her back-kick, shoulder charge, or _Ranshinshō_ against Kabuto, nor in decking Orochimaru before and after _Sōzō Saisei_.
> 
> If you're suggesting the Chakra-augmentation requires additional time and necessitates she rear back so that it can take effect, that'd be incorrect; kneading it is instant and releasing it is done only upon impact- thus it can be performed in the same time it would take to perform a striking motion without it. Tis how Sakura destroyed the Kazekage puppet so quickly when it approached her and why Tsunade wasn't seen rearing back whenever she was attacking ribcage _Susano'o_.



Shoulder charge isnt a punch or kick so of course she wouldnt need to cockback for it. Ranshinshō isnt an attack aimed to kill nor is it a chakra enhanced punch so she doesnt need to cock back for either. Her punch before she healed wasnt shown on panel it just showed oro's head flung back so its impossible to tell. But seeing as how her posture is afterwards, its safe to say she wound up for that punch too, and after she healed? Youre wrong, she did cock back for that one too. 

Im not sugesting anything, i was merely analyzing her taijutsu style i already know how the chakra fists work, and sakura was a different case as seeing as the puppet was flying at her a very high rate of speed and thus didnt need a long motion to deliver the punch.



FlamingRain said:


> Her natural strength is sufficient to one-shot Neji, though, and it's what strips him of his "style advantage" alongside her insanely high resilience.



natural strength means nothing if you cant hit your target and its not stripping anything from neji seeing as jabs>>>Haymakers when his comes to speed and efficiency. And being resilient mean not a thing to the gentle fist, it attacks youre tenketsu and damages from the inside. it bypasses outward "resiliency".  



FlamingRain said:


> As for a speed advantage? When the flip did Neji display anything that even made him _as fast as_ Tsunade?



When the heck has been noted as anywhere near as being a speedster???? Dr. white posted it already but all tell you anyway. Running  this distance to meet his opponent falling from a tree. Thats a couple hundred feet in about 4 to 5 seconds. Mind you that this is a heavilty injured part one neji doing this with a 3 in speed in the databook at the time. Current neji is sporting a hefty 4.5 in speed now which is 2 tiers above tsunade's 3.5. Theres my evidence straight from canon instead of using some false claim such as tsunade actually being fast.  Neji is clearly above her in speed and reactions. 



FlamingRain said:


> Neji tries attacking, Tsunade punches once and Neji gets caught and dies. His knowledge is irrelevant.



Lol nice made up scenario. Tsunade punches once, neji dodges and tags her multiple times.  This goes on until shes incapacitated . Knowledge is power





FlamingRain said:


> Alright? How does this go against anything I've claimed thus far?



you said "Kaiten just results in Tsunade ripping open the ground and closing it after Neji falls in."  Youre implying that neji uses kaiten in a way that he never does and would never do. He would activate it only in response to an attack i.e. Tsunade somehow manage to get a open shot on him.




FlamingRain said:


> It's just that Tsunade's reaction timing and foresight are more than sufficient to see and anticipate Neji attempting to enact the rotation (he has to start before she reaches his position so that he's already spinning by the time she connects) and accordingly redirect her strike downwards though.



nonono, entirely fallacious scenario. Anticipate kaiten? Neji anticipates her slow as hell punch and blows her back with kaiten. Seeing as he deflect much faster and stronger things.


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## Veracity (Jul 6, 2014)

^^^^ Neji isn't even close to the speed of Tsuande and basically ends up getting bloated identically to Oro here: Video of a Tree burning and the speed it took to completely burn on all sides.

Not to mention Tsuande doesn't even have to hit Neji considering she has strength capable of doing this by hitting the ground: Video of a Tree burning and the speed it took to completely burn on all sides.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 6, 2014)

Kimimaro, Bee, Lee, and Gai beat her decisively.

Neji beats her but is hit and is in bad shape.

Kisame loses to her.


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## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

lol Likes boss thinks Tsunade is fucking Minato.

Likes Boss dismisses Neji's feats yet refuses to address why Pt. 1 Kabuto shat on her

Likes Boss refuses to post Tsunade having skill in Taijutsu

Likes Boos thinks blitzing Armless Oro (off of surprise factor at that) is something to tout about Tsunade.

Likes Boss is of his or her fucking wagon.

Lol Likes Boss, if you think Tsunade is blitzing anyone above Low Kage level you should probably stop reading literature and battle manga.

Tsunade couldn't even blitz Diedara with KCM Mode


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## LostSelf (Jul 6, 2014)

I seriously doubt that Tsunade is blitzing Neji or anybody here as Lee, Kimi, etc. might not be on her level, but have shown a better taijutsu style and speed. Lee, for example and unless i am not mistaken, has the reflexes to keep up with his own gated speed, wich is great. I don't think gates enhances reflexes, though.

About Neji, i seriously doubt she is outpacing him in taijutsu and speed. But, Neji was defeated by one of the three clones that a 30% Kisame brought out. And that is, well, bad. I know Kisame, even in 30% has more chakra than a lot of kage levels, but it still doesn't help his case.

I forgot war-arc Neji's feats a bit. But if his Air Palm damages internal organs, then he is winning this easier than i thought. But i am not sure if it does that. So i still see him losing more times than not. But no way i see him stomped as this is a taijutsu fight, and he exceeds at that and has the better feats/finesse by a long shot, shown in the manga aside from hype.

But if we go with hype, the Hyuuga are the strongest in Konoha .


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 6, 2014)

For the record, I don't think Tsunade would blitz Neji either, but nonetheless you're laughably incorrect if you think he could defeat her in a taijutsu battle.



Dr. White said:


> Likes Boss dismisses Neji's feats yet refuses to address why Pt. 1 Kabuto shat on her




 In order to fight Tsunade, Part 1 Kabuto had to take a soldier pill to increase his chakra reserves, and boost his speed.
 He also had to tire Tsunade out before engaging her in combat, and had prior knowledge on her super strength and healing (while she had no knowledge of his abilities). Despite all of his advantages, he still couldn't defeat her in their close combat exchange, and had to use her blood phobia in order to ultimately get the upper-hand.
 Lastly, that was Part I Tsunade, who was rusty and out of shape. Part II Tsunade has infinitely better feats . . so I have no idea why you brought this up in the first place.



> Likes Boss refuses to post Tsunade having skill in Taijutsu



Then I'll give you some examples.

First of all, she invented the evasive taijutsu style that was drilled into Sakura, and can quite naturally utilise it a lot better than a beginning of Part II Sakura could. Chiyo notes that high evasive skills come with significant battle experience, and Tsunade has about 30 years of it. We've only seen a glimpse of her evasive skills, but even those were impressive. She was dodging all of Part I Kabuto's attacks (he had a 3.5 in taijutsu and speed) despite his numerous advantages. When out of shape and drunk she could effortlessly dodge and disarm Part I Naruto's attacks, taking him out with nothing but her finger.

Tsunade's ability to smash the ground the below with wide area of effect strikes can effectively force foes into the air. That mitigates any speed advantage they have over her, because it is almost always impossible to move in mid-air. 

Tsunade is the most resilient character in the entire manga. No matter what attack a foe hits her with, she can shrug off the pain and immediately retaliate. No opponent would ever expect her to be able to move after sustaining critical hits, and hence she can take even faster opponents by surprise. Actually, she's done this in every single fight she's ever been in, multiple times in each one.

Then of course, factor in that she only needs to land one blow to kill an opponent. Even a blow as fleeting as a finger poke or an elbow graze packs enough power to split the ground in two, and would effectively kill 90% of opponents upon contact.



> Likes Boos thinks blitzing Armless Oro (off of surprise factor at that) is something to tout about Tsunade.



Except that Orochimaru having arms wouldn't have helped him at all whatsoever in that situation. He is still significantly worse at taijutsu than she is, and it's not like you can block her strikes either.



> Lol Likes Boss, if you think Tsunade is blitzing anyone above Low Kage level you should probably stop reading literature and battle manga.



I just hope you aren't insinuating Neji is anywhere near the Low Kage level.



> Tsunade couldn't even blitz Diedara with KCM Mode



Tsunade couldn't blitz Deidara . . while possessing a mode that lets Base Naruto (who isn't even as fast as Tsunade is) move significantly faster than him? 

I have lost my faith in your credibility as a poster, unless you're trolling. Please tell me you're trolling ​​


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## Jad (Jul 6, 2014)

Rock Lee in his drunken state was effectively dodging Kimimaro's _Tsubaki no Mai_:



And that dance was so fast it created *after images*. No, not just illustrative wise; the databook literally states _Tsubaki no Mai's_ speed is so fast it creates after images.

Just thought I mention that. Gai's student


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## FlamingRain (Jul 6, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> Youre implying tsunade can survive complete organ damage in base?



I'm not just implying it, that is exactly what I'm expressly saying.

You know every time Tsunade got impaled by a Susano'o sword she kept attacking before removing it (in other words, before the regeneration could actually get to going), which means her base resilience is simply that high.



> So what if her whole body was sent through? That doesnt prove anything.



If her whole body was sent through her whole body went through the same stress, which means that if _anything_ inside Tsunade took damage it _everything_ inside Tsunade was put under that same stress because _all_ of it went through the same Jutsu. It's nothing but wishful thinking that her organs just conveniently went unaffected.



> Are you saying that because mabui's jutsu didnt harm her much that gentle fist wont work on her?



Yes.



> The fact of the matter is mabui's jutsu and the gentle fist style are 2 different things, Tensō no Jutsu is stated to "rip to shreds" any normal ninja, That has nothing to do with Neji closing tenketsu thus effecting internal organs. One cannot tank gentle fist shots.



Mabui's _Tensō no Jutsu_ does that _because_ it's an unprotected jump to light-speed, which would affect a person's organs. The Tenketsu are physical parts of the body and can be reached like anything else can- Kabuto severed all of Naruto's near his heart with one strike of his scalpels, compared to Neji's 64 Jyūken hits to simply block them off for a while, and Kabuto was able to outright prevent Naruto from drawing on the fox's power unlike Neji.



> First of all her heart was not pierced, thats a blatant lie,



Dude, that is where the heart is: .

The spine, too, actually.



> And yes byakugou was a major help in keeping her alive at that point, its auto regen thats what its does, *keeps you alive*. theres no way she can pull this off without byakugou.



Now you're just being intentionally stupid. _Byakugō_ only keeps you alive after something if you can survive it in the first place. _Byakugō_ cannot have an effect on you while a weapon is still lodged inside, because the weapon is still occupying the space where the cells need to divide, forestalling the regeneration process.

Tsunade was leaping around clocking clones _while the swords were still in her_, which necessitates insanely high base resilience independent of her regeneration.

Her collapse had to do with her stamina finally whittling down, not her pain threshold being eclipsed, which is why Ay explicitly brings up the concern of her running out soon if she keeps berserking like that, and why she took the knee for as long as she did (because her regeneration works faster than that- she wasn't waiting on it).



> But forget all that, tsunade doesnt have access to her jutsu in this taijutsu fight, so telling me about byakugou feats is null.



I'm explaining why she doesn't need it to devastate Neji.



> She will be collapsing and from organ failure in this fight.



She will not.




> Yes it does have something to do with what you just said, you stated that "No way in heck is Neji getting through that entire string of several dozens of hits" When in fact she has  never shown to string together successive punches. And she can ignore things all she wants neji's attacks are still doing damage to her innards until shes dead.




I just said I was talking about _Neji's_ hits when I said "string of hits". I meant Neji will not find the time to execute that combination without getting his face smacked off _because she can ignore it_.




> Drunk? Nah seemed pretty coherent to me from beginning to the end of the encounter with naruto.



Shizune had warned her that she'd had too much to drink already by the time Jiraiya and Naruto showed up and she was red in the face for the entirety of the skirmish.



> Out of shape or not, landing hits on genin ninja with basically no taijutsu skill is childs play. She wasnt even serious against naruto anyway. She has never done that combo in a real battle or anything even close to that in a real battle.



That's besides the point. The fact is that she can string actions together in succession when you tried to act like she couldn't for whatever reason. She has never needed to string her actions together in any of her on-panel fights.



> She didnt do it against kabuto, orochimaru, madara or even his clones.



Because the first time she hit them they either got immobilized, exploded or sent flying away. You cannot use that as a grounds to say she can't do it when she had no incentive to try it in those scenarios.



> Shoulder charge isnt a punch or kick so of course she wouldnt need to cockback for it.



Irrelevant. It is still a Taijutsu maneuver and would still kill anybody who couldn't sever her muscles with a tap like Kabuto.



> Ranshinshō isnt an attack aimed to kill nor is it a chakra enhanced punch so she doesnt need to cock back for either.



Still irrelevant, because if her strength was at its norm her hand making contact would still kill and I've already highlighted why Chakra-charging makes no difference in the execution time.



> Her punch before she healed wasnt shown on panel it just showed oro's head flung back so its impossible to tell. But seeing as how her posture is afterwards, its safe to say she wound up for that punch too,



Nothing about her posture suggests a wind up.



> and after she healed? Youre wrong, she did cock back for that one too.



She did not, she tugged on Orochimaru's tongue. That's not the same as rearing back for a punch, nor would it replace rearing back if that was actually required. 



> Im not sugesting anything, i was merely analyzing her taijutsu style



Not very well apparently.



> natural strength means nothing if you cant hit your target and its not stripping anything from neji seeing as jabs>>>Haymakers when his comes to speed and efficiency.



Neji's not faster than Tsunade.

Obliterating someone in one hit is more efficient than jabbing them 64 times and only  hurting them.



> And being resilient mean not a thing to the gentle fist, it attacks youre tenketsu and damages from the inside. it bypasses outward "resiliency".



Don't be gump.

It bypasses outward _durability_- _resiliency_ applies to the inside and out.



> When the heck has been noted as anywhere near as being a speedster???? Dr. white posted it already but all tell you anyway. Running  this distance to meet his opponent falling from a tree. Thats a couple hundred feet in about 4 to 5 seconds.



And yet any of the Jōnin could reach him from the top of the spectator areas before he could reach Hinata a couple feet away. Kakashi couldn't catch Kabuto after he fled Sasuke's hospital room, and Kabuto couldn't touch Tsunade even when he was on ninja steroids until she was airborne. Intercepting Manda before he could snap his jaws shut >>> Neji's sprint.



> Current neji is sporting a hefty 4.5 in speed now which is 2 tiers above tsunade's 3.5.



There's only a difference of 1, not 2.

The databook does not take Chakra-intensive movements into account concerning the speed statistic, because they are more Ninjutsu-esque applications. Sakura blitzed someone an entire 1.5 tiers faster than her with Chakra-intensive movements, Tsunade blitzed Shizune .5 tiers faster than her, caught 4.5 Orochimaru before he could move out of the way despite an inconvenient starting position, and intercepted Manda while carrying a giant sword that could have only slowed her down.

Neji has nothing on her.



> you said "Kaiten just results in Tsunade ripping open the ground and closing it after Neji falls in."  Youre implying that neji uses kaiten in a way that he never does and would never do.



The only thing I'm implying is that Tsunade will expect its attempt and act accordingly.



> Anticipate kaiten?



Yes.



> Neji anticipates her slow as hell punch and blows her back with kaiten.



He can't blow her back if she recognizes the spin and changes the course of her strike.



> Seeing as he deflect much faster and stronger things.



With Hiashi's help.


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## SSMG (Jul 6, 2014)

Guy beats her ten out of ten times. hes already shown he can fight with broken bones so even if he does get hit.. he wont be down for the count.. npt yo mention base guy has feats that allow him to dance around her.

kisame simply sucks her dry with sammy. Or beat her at her own game.. outlasting her and beating her up with his strength.

sixth gate rock lee should win more times than not since his speed and reactions are impressive to edo minato.. i am also assuming he can do MP. 

 Bees speed strength and lightning sword style will allow him the win more times than not. also are v1n v2 hachibi restricted?

kimmi and neji are toss ups.


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## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> > [*] In order to fight Tsunade, Part 1 Kabuto had to take a soldier pill to increase his chakra reserves, and boost his speed.
> 
> 
> Where is it stated it enhances speed? I don't care about chakra levels because we are talking strictly taijutsu skill here.
> ...


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## Sadgoob (Jul 6, 2014)

Drunk Lee knocked out base Gai, although Gai was probably holding back offensively so as not to hurt his student, that's still damn impressive to be able to land hits on Gai on at all.

Kimimaro hasa 5.0 in taijutusu and 4.5 in speed and Drunk Lee was schooling him in terms of taijutsu, although Kimimaro's kekkai genkai made Lee's superior evasion and style obsolete.

Tsunade doesn't have regeneration here, so every time a faster and more technically skilled person (arguably all of them bar Kisame) hit her, it's going to negatively affect her ability to hit them.

Kimimaro can tank hits from Tsunade, and Killer B and Gai are durable enough to endure a few. Kisame too. Lee's probably very durable too nowadays, but he'd never be hit when drunk anyway.​


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## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

@Flaming Rain

your whole argument is flawed by this being a manga.

Rin survived after being pierced by Raikiri, by your logic she should have been insta dead, and if she had byakugou she couldn't have healed without being that resilient.

Minato got stabbed by Kyuubi's pointer finger nail, and survived after it (a wound very similar to Tsunade's), without Yin Seal, or Byakugou to regenrate, she will just be a very injured and in Pain old lady.


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Drunk Lee knocked out base Gai, although Gai was probably holding back offensively so as not to hurt his student, that's still damn impressive to be able to land hits on Gai on at all.



I would think that _surprise_ would have also been a factor in any skirmish that took place.

It is impressive nonetheless, but Drunken Fist doesn't seem to be a suitable style for taking on Tsunade. Lee isn't strong enough to parry or even block Tsunade's punches, or kicks....or anything. Since he's, you know, _drunk_, Lee may forget about that little fact and end up getting his guard blown through and his torso blown off. This paragraph of FlamingRain's is a good summary of my thoughts:

_"The tricks he used against Kimimaro would be disastrous for his own person: one was a serial of kicks while doing a handstand of all things (during which he remained virtually rooted in place), and on two other occasions he opted for catching Kimimaro's strikes even when he wasn't in a situation where dodging was necessarily ruled out (Heaven help the man who tries catching Tsunade's shots with no advanced defenses)."_

Tsunade's substantial physical strength advantage would probably allow her to  Lee's strikes too. Tsunade can probably replicate B's feat of not feeling Sasuke's kick to the neck here against Lee.

The only way he stands a chance is if he runs away the entire time, but he'll eventually sober up and Tsunade can just kill him then...


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## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

Tsunade isn't gonna be able to make contact with drunk lee (who was dodging with his eyes closed, in a sleeping stupor), but she can probably fuck the ground up and catch his drunk ass off guard. It be a really funny sight to see Lee go flying.


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> @Flaming Rain
> 
> your whole argument is flawed by this being a manga.
> 
> ...



It's not really the fact that Tsunade survived, it's more that she _kept fighting_ though those injuries.

Rin didn't do much except die after being stuck by Chidori, and Minato couldn't really move. I'm aware Minato did continue to use jutsu, but I find Minato to be an exceptionally resilient character as well.


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## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It's not really the fact that Tsunade survived, it's more that she _kept fighting_ though those injuries.
> 
> Rin didn't do much except die after being stuck by Chidori, and Minato couldn't really move. I'm aware Minato did continue to use jutsu, but I find Minato to be an exceptionally resilient character as well.



It is to my knowledge she used Byakugou to survive before moving though, implying without it she would have died. Also IIRC she was healing consistently the whole fight (like how she did vs Madara's Magatama).

Had Rin had Tsunade's healing prowess, she would have survived is my point.

Minato was never touted to be such a character. That is literally like the only time he got hurt alive, and he was already under contract to be dead. It is a great willpower feat, but nothing to suggest his resilience, and durability are above normal human feats for his tier (people like Itachi, Bee, Tobirama; the latter of two have different reasons for actually being cannonically durable and resilient)


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> It is to my knowledge she used Byakugou to survive before moving though, implying without it she would have died.



What



> Had Rin had Tsunade's healing prowess, she would have survived is my point.



I agree, Chidori would not kill Rin if she had Byakugo. 

That said, Rin would not be going hand to hand with Susano'o if she had two giant swords erasing her midsection, Byakugo or not.



> Minato was never touted to be such a character. That is literally like the only time he got hurt alive, and he was already under contract to be dead. It is a great willpower feat, but nothing to suggest his resilience, and durability are above normal human feats for his tier (people like Itachi, Bee, Tobirama; the latter of two have different reasons for actually being cannonically durable and resilient)



Resilience and "Willpower" are pretty much the same thing to me. Minato's durability is normal, though.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What


Can you link me the panels if you can?

From what I remember Madara got her with the swords, which appeared to have killed her, but she then powered up with Byakugou broke Susano and did work. Implying without Byakugou she would have died.

As for my other point from what I recall Tsunade was healing wounds before she got stuck by Susano, meaning it isn't her bdoies ability so much as her healing.





> I agree, Chidori would not kill Rin if she had Byakugo.
> 
> That said, Rin would not be going hand to hand with Susano'o if she had two giant swords erasing her midsection, Byakugo or not.


You don't just get byakugou. It implies you are a master level healer like Hashi or Tsunade. Given Tsunade's skill, experience, and Byakugou Rin would not doubt survive what she did especially considering she was an uzumaki and Jinchuriki candidate.

My overall point is Base Tsunade is not comparable to Yin seal, and especially not Byakugou Tsunade, because her healing powers are what give her said ability.





> Resilience and "Willpower" are pretty much the same thing to me. Minato's durability is normal, though.


Resilience is you ability to endure pain and power through (the latter of which is reliant on your physical condition e.g Zoro taking Luffy's Pain {If you read One Piece})

Durability is your bodies ability to take attacks and damage. Doton Domu increases durability and therefore allows said person to be more resiliant. In Tsunade's case her body isn't that durable which means in base it doesn't matter how resiliant she is because her body will fail her either way.


----------



## Ghost (Jul 6, 2014)

Tsunade rips Kimimaro and Neji apart.

Bee wins if he has his sword because then Tsunade won't be able to get a hold on him. 

Kisame puts up some resistance since he is also strong as fuck, but without his sword he can't win.

Guy wins if he plays it smart: quick strong kicks to wear Tsunade down and eventually finish her. Guy takes this 7/10.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 6, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> For the record, I don't think Tsunade would blitz Neji either, but nonetheless you're laughably incorrect if you think he could defeat her in a taijutsu battle.​




I don't know if i am wrong, but i guess that was directed to me. 

I didn't say Neji would defeat her in a taijutsu battle. I said that if Air Palm, the one that was stopping the huge Juubi limbs affects the internal organs just like his gentle fist, but in a wider area since it's bigger, then he is winning this more times than not because Tsunade would be being hit by invisible blasts of chakra destroying air that will send her flying back with enough force, and without healing, she is hardly beating this Neji.

Not that Neji would engage her in close quarters combat, in wich i still don't see her stomping a master of taijutsu like him.

But that said, that is _IF_ air palm works like gentle fist. If it itsn't, then i already said my views.​


----------



## Veracity (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> lol Likes boss thinks Tsunade is fucking Minato.
> 
> Likes Boss dismisses Neji's feats yet refuses to address why Pt. 1 Kabuto shat on her
> 
> ...



Never said Tsuande was Minato. Blitzing a freaking  Jounin doesn't make her Minato.

Clearly read all of your feats for Neji and quickly came down to the conclusion that they are all shit tier. Except it . All you have came up with are feats with against fucking PTS Naruto and Kidomaru.

Except for the fact that Tsuande has a :
? perfect taijustu stat 
? is hyped greatly in this category 
? literally what her entire arsenal is revolves around taijustu which contributes to the fact that's she's a freaking legendary nin
? blitzed Oro in CQC
? fights off 5 Sussano clones relying on CQC skill.

Surprise factor My ass after he watches Tsuande get up 2 other times and knows of her durabilty and resilience . A feats a feat stop downplaying. 

?If you think itcahi is soloing the 9 Bjuii you should probably stop reading this manga.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> @Flaming Rain
> 
> your whole argument is flawed by this being a manga.



That isn't an excuse when the injuries were established as game-overs for normal ninja.

In manga it was acknowledged by Kabuto himself that the injuries Tsunade sustained leave people unable to move, and it only became more astonishing to every witness that Tsunade was able to keep moving each time she got attacked by Orochimaru on top of that.

In manga Madara and the other Kages thought Tsunade should have died after he impaled her with that single Susano'o blade, which makes the twin-swords feat even more impressive still.



> Rin survived after being pierced by Raikiri, by your logic she should have been insta dead, and if she had byakugou she couldn't have healed without being that resilient.



Rin pretty much _was_ "insta-dead". She survived a mere couple seconds to say Kakashi's name before dying, which is a lot shorter than Tsunade was injured.

She'd have been killed the first time Madara struck her.



> Minato got stabbed by Kyuubi's pointer finger nail, and survived after it.



He died after that when he sealed the fox.

Not nearly as impressive as casting Jutsu while more concerned with the safety of other people with far less severe injuries than your own complete bifurcation.


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## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Never said Tsuande was Minato. Blitzing a freaking  Jounin doesn't make her Minato.


Because Prodigy Byakugan user equates to any random Jonin right 



> Clearly read all of your feats for Neji and quickly came down to the conclusion that they are all shit tier. Except it . All you have came up with are feats with against fucking PTS Naruto and Kidomaru.


Based off of your own bias standard. Just dismissing someone off as pre skip fodder isn't an argument. Kidomaru's arrows were still fucking fast as hell. He was also sage powered. Pit Tsunade in that position and she gets fucking impaled over and over, and never finds Kidomaru.

Except for the fact that Tsuande has a :


> ? perfect taijustu stat


Which reflects her letahlity not her skill because a 2.5 was able to get multiple hits on her, even with her 5 (whihc Kishi decided to bestow on "rusty" Tsunade.



> ? is hyped greatly in this category


For her lethality not her skill. Do I really have to explain why Jyuuken and Byukugan > Hulk smash Style? 



> ? literally what her entire arsenal is revolves around taijustu which contributes to the fact that's she's a freaking legendary nin


Take away her healing and what is she? Someone with great strength and decent reactions/speed. You keep acting like Regeneration isn't apart of her style. The sole reason she can "fight on the front line" is because of this technique. 


> ? blitzed Oro in CQC


Went over why you are a hypocrite for this point, and why it is laughable to use.



> ? fights off 5 Sussano clones relying on CQC skill.


The fight where Madara was purposefully toying with them, and trying to torture their spirits and bodies? The fight were once he got serious he low diffed all 5?




> ?If you think itcahi is soloing the 9 Bjuii you should probably stop reading this manga.


Full knowledge, in eyesight range? What happens when Itachi starts by controlling Kyuubi and Ama's hachibi? The bjuu IC don't start with TBB nuke, which is bad for them because they need to do that before he gets Kyuubi. He also has shisui's eye to sneak one more under his control.

You mad so you're resorting to bring other threads into this


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## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> That isn't an excuse when the injuries were established as game-overs for normal ninja.


Ok and prior to using Yin Seal or Byakugo, Tsunade is in the same boat...It is impressive she can still heal while in that position, but in base without those faculties she isn't surviving any of those attacks. She is the exception because of her healing.



> In manga it was acknowledged by Kabuto himself that the injuries Tsunade sustained leave people unable to move, and it only became more astonishing to every witness that Tsunade was able to keep moving each time she got attacked by Orochimaru on top of that.


She is a Hashi level healer it is too be expected.






> He died after that when he sealed the fox.
> 
> Not nearly as impressive as casting Jutsu while more concerned with the safety of other people with far less severe injuries than your own complete bifurcation.


I think we are arguing different things. I am speaking solely about Base Tsunade.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Which reflects her letahlity not her skill because a 2.5 was able to get multiple hits on her, even with her 5 (whihc Kishi decided to bestow on "rusty" Tsunade.



Kabuto has a 3.5, which is still a full tier above average, and his decision to flee until she was tired and augment his abilities with the Hyōrōgan may as well be a concession on his part that even rusty she'd have hit him before he hit her otherwise.

He never managed to touch her until she in her great rustiness, tiredness, and blind rage performed a back-kick that left her airborne, and even then he got hit right back in that very moment.



> For her lethality not her skill.



The data-book refers to Taijutsu as measuring a person's proficiency (read: "a high degree of competence or skill", not "lethality") in the art.



> You keep acting like Regeneration isn't apart of her style.



Regeneration was a recent development, hence even her fellow Sannin being unaware of it. And it's a Ninjutsu, which means it's not where she got her 5 from.



Dr. White said:


> Ok and prior to using Yin Seal or Byakugo, Tsunade is in the same boat



She's not.

Tsunade played possum until Madara turned his attention to the other Kage while impaled and then broke the sword before taking it out (thus before regeneration became a factor).

Rin died almost immediately after she was stabbed.

If you don't see the difference we're not going to get anywhere.



> She is a Hashi level healer it is too be expected.



She activated her technique _after_ that though.



> I think we are arguing different things. I am speaking solely about Base Tsunade.



She didn't have Byakugō active while she was bifurcated.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Where is it stated it enhances speed?



When Kiba used them against Naruto [1] His speed saw an increase from when before he had consumed them. [2] [3]



> If Kabuto did the same to Base Gai, he would have gotten wrecked because there is a big enough speed, reactions, and skill gap concerning Taijutsu which did not exist with Tsunade as she was struck multiple times.



Base Gai wasn't out of shape in Part I though. His taijutsu skill is also generally greater than Tsunade's, and any other character's, for that matter. I don't know why he is relevant to this argument. Just because he would have fared better than Rusty Tsunade it doesn't make her poor or even average at taijutsu. She was obviously a cut above that. 



> When did he tire her out? IIRC he used chakra scalpel and got right to work.



Whenever he forced her to chase him a great distance in order to switch battlefields [1] [2] Tsunade had evidently been throwing strikes and attacks along the way, tiring her out by consequence. Kabuto took a pill to restore his chakra reserves and reinvigorate himself, but Tsunade did not have that luxury.



> Also I am not arguing Kabuto has a chance to beat her, just outlining the notion that Tsunade is some Taijutsu master is pure B.S. The whole point of this argument is that having someone Shizune level hit you multiple times in CqC isn't impressive, especially considering the latters skill in taijutsu.



Kabuto was fighting someone who hadn't participated in battle in about 20 years and was obviously physically out of shape from having done nothing but drink and gamble. To have done what she did despite her inherent disadvantage, is something to credit, not to turn your nose up at. Also, Tsunade has a 5 in taijutsu by databook 3 (Part II), so your your argument is automatically invalid. She _is_ a taijutsu expert.



> Once again the blood argument does not excuse her getting hit by him at close range multiple times prior to him resorting to that tactic.



The first time Kabuto ' hit ' Tsunade, it was in mid-air where evasion is impossible for a start, and she literally threw herself into it using a shoulder charge [1] It had very little to do with Kabuto's taijutsu skill, and more to do with the nature of his _ninjutsu_, which only needed a brief moment of physical contact to take effect. The second time he hit her, it was because he had slowed her down with his scalpels. After that, he failed to land any hits on her without using her blood phobia to his advantage.



> -Pt. 1 Tsunade was travelling and Gambling.
> 
> -Pt. 2 Tsunade fought in the Sannin battle and sat her ass on the Hokage desk until the Pain battle.
> 
> Tsunade is 50, not 16. There comes a certain age where you stop progressing with time and stay at a general level, until age takes over (see Hiruzen). Tsunade is way to old to be using the "she progressed over time" argument.



And what, over the two and half year timeskip you think she didn't get back into shape in order to protect her village more effectively? Just because you're old it doesn't mean you can't be physically fit either, that is a ridiculous thing to say. Heck, Tsunade's feats in Part II _show_ that she saw an obvious improvement over the timeskip. Where in Part I she struggled to keep up with Kabuto and was _struggling to use a single Shosen no Jutsu_, in Part II she can _synchronise attacks_ with Base Ei and _use thousands of shosen no jutsu simultaneously_ without being fatigued _afterwards_. 



> Also, my argument boils down to, if Tsunade was that great in Taijutsu she would hace raped Kabuto regardless because he had a 2,5 and sucked at it.



2.5/5 is the half way mark, he was average at it, he didn't _suck_. Even so, he still had a significant speed advantage over her even if his taijutsu wasn't that great (which he alludes to as one of the reasons why he's consuming the pill in the first place). 



> Then I'll give you some examples.
> 
> Anyone elite Jonin or up could have accomplished the dexterity Tsunade had.  against a genin not known for skill.



We're getting somewhere then - because now you're admitting that a drunken, out of shape Tsunade could _effortlessly_ perform taiijutsu feats on par with Elite Jounin. At any rate, Part I Naruto had a 2 in taijutsu, so for Part I Tsunade to have toyed with him so effortlessly her taijutsu could easily have been a few tiers higher.



> That's great that she developed a style and all, but it doesn't compare to other martial arts on a skill level. There is a reason only Tsunade and Sakura use the fighting style and it is because it is very impractical to use your medic as a fight. I'm not trying to bash Tsunade here: I respect her skill for what it is, but there is a difference between the Hulk, and someone like Batman (Not really to familiar with american comics). Yeah the hulk will fuck batman up (mostly due to the ridiculous stat gap) but from a pure technical level batman is more skilled.



On what basis does it not compare to other martial arts in skill? At the end of the day Dr. White, Kishimoto gave Tsunade a 5 in taijutsu based on the very same style she invented. Whether you think she deserves it or not is irrelevant, because that is what the author is telling you. Also, predicting and analysing a foes movements and then dodging accordingly is not a style that _only_ Tsunade and Sakura use. Although Tsunade cited it as a style most beneficial to medics, other intelligent shinobi like Shikamaru were seen doing something very similar to dodge Tayuya's Doki, and any sharingan user incorporates this as the main basis of their taijutsu style. The main difference is, Tsunade can do it _without_ a doujutsu.




> Tsunade also has to do so before the opponent can catch on. Kabuto was able to escape with a debilitated Orochimaru, and he isn't exactly a speedster.



There is absolutely no evidence that Orochimaru's lack of arms made him physically slower. He was in no pain throughout the Sannin match, so I don't see a reason why he would be moving around slower. The only thing that was visibly affected by his sickness was his ability to cast jutsu and his stamina. Secondly, the only reason Orochimaru and Kabuto escaped was because they jumped onto an obstacle above ground level. That doesn't contest my argument Dr. White, it just adds to it. If that wall hadn't of been there to jump onto, they would have simply jumped into the air and had nowhere to land.



> Neji in specific can literally watch everytime Tsunade goes to concentrate her chakra and strike prior wich will disrupt her strength (which takes very fine chakra control to maintain), put up a barrier to defend (which can be done literally last second), Air Palm Tsunade a couple yards back, and or shushin.



You make it sound like it takes time for Tsunade to charge her strength, in reality, the speed of her chakra build up is synonymous with the speed of her actual strikes. Actually, Tsunade's base physical strength is still enormous - enough to shatter parts of walls and lift Gamabunta's tanto, so she could kill Neji even without her chakra enhanced strength. 

Tsunade can dodge the majority of Neji's strikes, including his air palm. He will land some hits, that is inevitable given his speed advantage, but not enough to make a difference. Pushing Tsunade out of close quarter combat is useless to Neji as well, since the only way he even has a small chance at winning is by running in close and trying to aim for vital spots. 



> Yes this is why she is so dangerous. Once you get in close, if you aren't skilled enough you are most likely going to die. Unofrtunately Taijutu masters don't fall under that category, and have ways to deal with not getting hit.



Good thing Neji isn't a taijutsu master then. He's very, very talented, many have even called him a genius, but he still has only a 4.5. Tsunade has a 5. Tsunade > Neji in taijutsu. That's a fact.



> In the case of Neji, everything you listed about Tsunade can be taken away via Jyuuken. Without chakra Tsunade, can't heal or use her strength. Hence why I said Base tsunade loses to him because she won't have any chakra to override her damaged chakra cells.



Tsunade won't be healing in this match to begin with, since she's in base. Secondly, for Neji to be able to fully disable Tsunade's chakra network to the point that she can't even use chakra enhanced strength, he's going to need to land at least 64 consecutive hits. That, for obvious reasons, is never ever going to happen.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> You seem to think I am legitimately coming at Tsunade as a whole, I'm not. I am just stating her Taijutsu skill is no where what you guys think it is.



The only thing we're saying is that she's a lot better than Neji in close quarters. Her 5/5 to his 4.5/5 only confirms it.



> Neji getting hit by someone who isn't > him in speed or Taijutsu prowess is very unlikely (the guy was able to counter multiple projectile Kunai and spiders hundreds at one time) and his nigh Omni vision. He also is one of the best in his clan of the best Taijutsu fighters in Konoha.



That's great. Tsunade's taijutsu still > his taijutsu though.



> Last resort as I said, once Tsunade makes contact with Neji's face, this happens and both parties get fucked up



Personally I think he would be trashed mid 64 Palm strike, but if he does try to Kaiten her, then he dies in the ensuing blast, while she still remains standing because of her incredibly high resilience. She's winning this no matter what he does.



> -So not being able to use jutsu like snake hands, snake summoning, fuuton, etc is not debilitating him?



Snake hands is useless against her, snake summons were accessible via Kabuto and so he was never stripped of them in the first place, and no other jutsu in his arsenal that requires his hands to perform them would have been effective against her in that situation. 



> -You realize having arms signifigantly increases your ability to move through the air right? Things like running, and moving in general have alot to do with your arms and the balance, anchor they provide for the body.



Orochimaru had arms, he just couldn't use them, so you're still wrong.




> Neji was the only rookie to make Jonin. He was portrayed as second in line behind Hiashi. Neji's barrier has increased to be able to block the juubi hand, and his air palm should be scaled off of Hiashi's (which matched the feat of KN Hinata's). This along with byakugan and jyuuken pit him in the Elite Jonin - Low kage level



The Elite/High Jounin level features shinobi like Sharingan-less Kakashi, Hidan, Yugito Nii, Suigetsu, Juugo and Kimimaro. The Low Kage level features shinobi like Old Hiruzen, Chiyo, Danzou and Kinkaku/Ginkaku. Neji isn't as strong as any of those shinobi, and at best I would place him in the Mid-Jounin bracket, with the likes of Kiba, Fu/Torune, Base Kabuto, Temari and Hiashi. 



> I was drunk and dumbfounded at the remarks of Tsunade being Minato, so I was being extremely facetious.



Thank god.​​


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Kabuto has a 3.5, which is still a full tier above average, and his decision to flee until she was tired and augment his abilities with the Hyōrōgan may as well be a concession on his part that even rusty she'd have hit him before he hit her otherwise.


So...my point still stands that a decent Taijutsu user was able to injure somone thrice despite her 5. 

Being Rusty isn't an excuse when she went into the fight knowing she'd have to fight Orochimaru, IIRC didn't she even not want Jiraiya's help? Like, That's like asuma getting cut by Konohamaru 3 times, and being like "damn I must be rusty". At that point it's BS which is analogous to someone who is a "taijutsu master" being hit 3 times (1 in a vital spot) by a medic..



> He never managed to touch her until she in her great rustiness, tiredness, and blind rage performed a back-kick that left her airborne, and even then he got hit right back in that very moment.


So let me get this straight. In her IC mindset, after doing exactly what she would come to do as a Hokage, she somehow is excused for for getting hit 3 times? 

Once again I am not arguing that Kabuto can win, so telling me he did X, or Y is irrelevant as he still hit her before bringing out the blood, after successfully approaching her in CqC.





> The data-book refers to Taijutsu as measuring a person's proficiency (read: "a high degree of competence or skill", not "lethality") in the art.


Her strength does require skill though, and she is good at Taijutsu no doubt. But a master? Yeah no  Asuma would be half a tier from being a master by that logic 


She was still capable of healing herself. She was renowned as world class bruh. She was not renowned specifically for her taijutsu skill rather her inhumane strength and medical prowess.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Because Prodigy Byakugan user equates to any random Jonin right
> 
> 
> Based off of your own bias standard. Just dismissing someone off as pre skip fodder isn't an argument. Kidomaru's arrows were still fucking fast as hell. He was also sage powered. Pit Tsunade in that position and she gets fucking impaled over and over, and never finds Kidomaru.
> ...


Except for this prodigy is a damn Jounin and has never superceded the level of Kage in the least bit. 


What feats make kidomarus arrows fast ? The only thing you could possibly say is because they blitzed Neji. But Neji is hella slow lol. So no credit.

Tsuande would literally be untraceable by Kido. The entire sound 4 together had trouble defeating 2 special Jounin. The Hokage would beat them all herself casually. You are seriously a Tsuande hater if you think Kidomaru could beat Tsuande. That's just pitiful.


It's literally in the taijustu SKILL stat are you serious ? This means it's soloey her taijustu skill , nothing else. 

You serious need to use common sense here. This is literally just getting ridiculous . How many times do I have to sit here and explain to you the difference between Phobia riddled rusty and EXHAUSTED pre time skip Tsuande and current healthy Tsuande for you to realize that there's a freakinf difference. You act as if they are the same person ? Can you seriously not 
Comprehend this? Do you want me to break it down again for you cause it seems like your hanging on straws with this shitty arguments you keep bringing up.

Yes explain exactly that considering you seem to think you have Kishis thoughts flowing through your damn brain and seem to think everything you say with no evidence is correct.

A 5 in taijustu stat relies to skill you realize that right ? Without regeneration she till had the CQC speed to blitz Oro, the resistance to fight with her mid section in pieces, the strength to bust Sussano  and  the durabilty to tank Yasaka Magamata. You also realize that Tsuande received close quarter hype before her fellow Sannin even know of her Byakago ?

Not a hypocrite at all lol. You haven't explained a single thing. You couldn't reply to my post and made some small bullshit post that I should have merely overlooked cause you clearly can't prove a damn thing.

It doesn't matter if he was toying with them at all. Those 5 Sussano clones would still destroy every character in this thread except for Tsuande. And you act as if Madara's pulling out PS doesn't make him a fucking top tier able to solo Nagato and Itachi same time. 


Are you saying that the Kyuubi is basically fodder in the eyes of Itachi? That he would just Genjustu him casually every time ? Alright.

Not mad at all lol. Your the one who could even reply to my post and created some useless ass text filled with "fucking " a thousand times. If anything you are the one mad here.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> She didn't have Byakugō active while she was bifurcated.


Not getting my point. Asnwer this question

Without Byakugou what does Tsunade do with Madara's swords in her?

What you are doing is pointing to her being alive but completely unable to fight afterwards (assuming she didn't have byakugou). That's like me saying "BUT BASE TSUNADE SURVIVED WHILE IN HALF!!!" , does this mean Base Tsunade is survived being cut in half ? No. It doesn't.


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## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

Bruh, could you please quote and reply? It's hard matching the responses with no reference.



Likes boss said:


> Except for this prodigy is a damn Jounin and has never superceded the level of Kage in the least bit.


Kakashi is a jounin. She isn't even blitzing pt. 1 Kakashi. Like Kakashi, Neji also has way better reactions than most people his level because of Dojutsu. To master the Jyuuken fighting stlye one must be extremely quick, precise, and reactive (hitting spots that are the size of a pinhead with extreme accuracy at extreme rates). Neji was portrayed to be Hiashi's near equal being the only Hyuuga by his side vs Juubi, and both of them using equally big Kaiten's. With that feat, and scaling his max air palm on Hiashi's he is easily elite jounin - Low Kage level.



> What feats make kidomarus arrows fast ? The only thing you could possibly say is because they blitzed Neji. But Neji is hella slow lol. So no credit.


No this is where you fucking lose your credit.

-Do I really have to explain to you why arrows are fast?

How about the fact that just the release of the arrow itself was casuing the air around it to completely mangle trees, and leave a debris trail through fucking dozens of meters of forest. Do you know how fast an arrow has to travel to punch holes through trees?

-Do you have any bearing on physics?



> Tsuande would literally be untraceable by Kido. The entire sound 4 together had trouble defeating 2 special Jounin. The Hokage would beat them all herself casually. You are seriously a Tsuande hater if you think Kidomaru could beat Tsuande. That's just pitiful.


The special Jounin weren't at the disadvantage of being at extremely long range vs Kidomaru's CS2 form.

If Tsunade was in Neji's position vs long range Kidomaru she would have an extremely hard time. 
A. She can't find him,while he knows explicitly where she is.
B. She doesn't have the vision to block his spider/Kunai combo like Neji did.
C. She can't aviod being hit in her vitals by his Golden arrows like Neji did.

You'r lack of argument not concerning Ad hominem is what is pitiful.




> You serious need to use common sense here. This is literally just getting ridiculous . How many times do I have to sit here and explain to you the difference between Phobia riddled rusty and EXHAUSTED pre time skip Tsuande and current healthy Tsuande for you to realize that there's a freakinf difference. You act as if they are the same person ? Can you seriously not
> Comprehend this? Do you want me to break it down again for you cause it seems like your hanging on straws with this shitty arguments you keep bringing up.


You aren't proving shit though.

What did tsunade do from the Sannin Battle up until the Pein battle, and likewise from the Pain battle to the war? Answer? Paperwork. Before I'll grant you she was drinking but she was also still very capable. I don't wanna hear the rsuty argument as Kabuto wasn't shit in terms of Taijutsu, and hit her 3 times before he fucking pulled the phobia card.




> Not a hypocrite at all lol. You haven't explained a single thing. You couldn't reply to my post and made some small bullshit post that I should have merely overlooked cause you clearly can't prove a damn thing.


Blitzing a jutsu less, armless Orochimaru is a good feat, but Kabuto being able to keep up with "rusty" Tsunade shouldn't be a qualifier of the people that can approach her in CqC.

I fucking Lol'd.



> It doesn't matter if he was toying with them at all. Those 5 Sussano clones would still destroy every character in this thread except for Tsuande. And you act as if Madara's pulling out PS doesn't make him a fucking top tier able to solo Nagato and Itachi same time.


Not if Madara wasn't purposefully trying to destroy them...




> Are you saying that the Kyuubi is basically fodder in the eyes of Itachi? That he would just Genjustu him casually every time ? Alright.


Seeing as Kyuubi got no diffed by both Madara and then teenage Obito, I see no reason Itachi the master of genjutsu would fail.



> Not mad at all lol. Your the one who could even reply to my post and created some useless ass text filled with "fucking " a thousand times. If anything you are the one mad here.


I'm not mad, I'm disappointing in you LB. But only because I care.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> So...my point still stands that a decent Taijutsu user was able to injure somone thrice despite her 5.



It doesn't. What we saw was an augmented above average Taijutsu user injure a greatly weakened Taijutsu master.

The starting conditions all favored him; assisted by the conditions, the matchup favored him (negate her strength- otherwise she'd have killed him with that shoulder charge despite all his precautions); and yet he still had to use her phobia to actually come out on top.



> Being Rusty isn't an excuse when she went into the fight knowing she'd have to fight Orochimaru, IIRC didn't she even not want Jiraiya's help?



You're only proving the point of Tsunade supporters by misinterpreting it.

She was not in her right mind (aka not IC) because the memory of her loved ones was being tainted, and on top of that her raw skill had more than twenty years of time to diminish.



> Once again I am not arguing that Kabuto can win, so telling me he did X, or Y is irrelevant as he still hit her before bringing out the blood, after successfully approaching her in CqC.



He didn't "successfully" approach her- that's the _entire reason_ he resorted to her phobia.

Approaching her at all is something he _only_ managed to do because of how terrible Tsunade's condition was and how great his own condition was.



> Her strength does require skill though, and she is good at Taijutsu no doubt.



Only her Chakra-enhanced strength requires skill, and that's classified as a Ninjutsu, not Taijutsu, which is what the stat is measuring.



> But a master?



According to canon.



> Asuma would be half a tier from being a master by that logic.



What's wrong with that when he shares the same tier as the Hyūga prodigy?



> She was still capable of healing herself. She was renowned as world class bruh.



Tsunade's capacity to heal herself would only be pertinent if she had actually healed herself, which she hadn't done until well after those injuries had been sustained.

Thus, those are feats of resilience for base Tsunade.



Dr. White said:


> Answer this question
> 
> Without Byakugou what does Tsunade do with Madara's swords in her?



The same thing she did with it active, she just can't keep it up for _as_ long.


----------



## Jad (Jul 6, 2014)

Neji is weird.

He has a 4.5 in Taijutsu, but in the Databook is called the best Hyuuga fighter. Yet Hiashi has a 5 in Taijutsu.

Anyways, databook says Lee is a Taijutsu master, so I believe Neji is also. Gai must be super Taijutsu grandmaster then.

Neji Databook Information:


"The basis of his strength lies in his ability to see precise chakra flow and his *unrivalled tenketsu-hitting taijutsu*."
"Even among the Hyuuga, the clan styling themselves as the "strongest clan in Konoha", Neji's ability surpasses all other Hyuuga."
"He has now even surpassed his clan and with his prodigious ability"


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> It doesn't. What we saw was an augmented above average Taijutsu user injure a greatly weakened Taijutsu master.


Rusty =/ greatly weakened 

Kabuto reacted to her first kick and its AOE.



> The starting conditions all favored him; assisted by the conditions, the matchup favored him (negate her strength- otherwise she'd have killed him with that shoulder charge despite all his precautions); and yet he still had to use her phobia to actually come out on top.


How? He was forced to fight her in CqC, how the hell did that advantage him?

He was dodging her for miles (metaphorically) as seen here while wheeling Orochimaru around.

Reacts despite being in an extremely vulnerable position

Then after dodging her again, completely outmaneuvers her to strike

Once again don't care about that he still hit her thrice.





> She was not in her right mind (aka not IC) because the memory of her loved ones was being tainted, and on top of that her raw skill had more than twenty years of time to diminish.


Tsunade was thrown off a bit but you are making it out to be much more than it is. She was determined to kill Orochimaru and strengthend mentally not only by her future Kage rol, but Naruto himself.




> He didn't "successfully" approach her- that's the _entire reason_ he resorted to her phobia.


 You do realize Kabuto fights her off panel and off panel way before he resorts to that right?

-here

here

The only reason she survives is her lightning jutsu.

Then she lands her first hit on him





> Approaching her at all is something he _only_ managed to do because of how terrible Tsunade's condition was and how great his own condition was.


No.




> Only her Chakra-enhanced strength requires skill, and that's classified as a Ninjutsu, not Taijutsu, which is what the stat is measuring.


Link to databook decription of taijutsu please?





> According to canon.


Panel please?



> What's wrong with that when he shares the same tier as the Hyūga prodigy?


If you think Asuma's boxing style requires the same amount of skill in taijutsu as jyuuken, you are off your wagon. Asuma shouldn't be anywhere near Gai or Neji, as there styles are the pinnacle of taijutsu in Konoha. Which lends to the fact that the DB is taking into account external things like his hien.




> Tsunade's capacity to heal herself would only be pertinent if she had actually healed herself, which she hadn't done until well after those injuries had been sustained.


Now once again in her injured state what is she gonna do? Besides remain injured? I don't care if she is alive while isected if she can't fight she loses...and eventually she will die. Which is my point.


> Thus, those are feats of resilience for base Tsunade.


Which doesn't matter when you can't fight.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

Jad said:


> Neji is weird.
> 
> He has a 4.5 in Taijutsu, but in the Databook is called the best Hyuuga fighter. Yet Hiashi has a 5 in Taijutsu.
> 
> ...



And he accomplished all of his Jyuuken aptitude* by simply watching others fight,* and then went on to one up them.

Then there is the fact that his* teacher is the best taijutsu user* in the manga, and not only was he tought/fought with Gai, but also his Mr. me version 2 in Lee for many years.

But no.... Tsunade def blitzes


----------



## Jad (Jul 6, 2014)

The only reason I can come up with that may explain why Neji has a 4.5 instead of a full 5, could be because he doesn't throw kicks. I mean, when was the last time this sucker threw a kick at someone, if ever?


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

Jad said:


> The only reason I can come up with that may explain why Neji has a 4.5 instead of a full 5, could be because he doesn't throw kicks. I mean, when was the last time this sucker threw a kick at someone, if ever?



He threw a couple at Naruto in their fight. But yeah more kicks would be better it just kinda conflicts with tenketsu


----------



## Veracity (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Bruh, could you please quote and reply? It's hard matching the responses with no reference.
> 
> 
> Kakashi is a jounin. She isn't even blitzing pt. 1 Kakashi. Like Kakashi, Neji also has way better reactions than most people his level because of Dojutsu. To master the Jyuuken fighting stlye one must be extremely quick, precise, and reactive (hitting spots that are the size of a pinhead with extreme accuracy at extreme rates). Neji was portrayed to be Hiashi's near equal being the only Hyuuga by his side vs Juubi, and both of them using equally big Kaiten's. With that feat, and scaling his max air palm on Hiashi's he is easily elite jounin - Low Kage level.
> ...



I can't on an iphone. 

Kakashi is revered as the top Jounin in the entire leaf and is easily Kage level unlike Neji. Not only this , but unlike Nejis dojutsu, Kakashis dojutsu increases his reactions immensely.  I also have no idea why you are comparing Kakashi to Neji when they clearly are far apart in skill.

Yes explain why the arrows are freaking fast. This is a fucking manga. Not a physics class. Kishi tends to exaggerate certain things to make then seem fast in contrast to the characters they are fighting. When Juubito dashes, the landscape isn't altered in the same way kido's arrows affect the landscape. Are you gonna sit here and tell me kido's arrows are faster then Juubitos shunshin ?

With 3 other fucking sound ninja they could easily created distance for Kido. But instead they struggle immensely against 2 ninja that Tsuande could have soloed with blindfolds on.

All of which you just said is useless considering Tsuande can shunshin so fast that Kidomaru can't even see her. The difference between speed in the two is immense.

Tsunade has to get in shape to be a Hokage ? Do you not understand that ? Not only that but she was clearly training Sakura the entire time. 

We clearly have evidence that shows Tsuandes improvement from Sannin battle to now.  During the Sannin battle she could only use one SS before she complained about her chakra. In the pain arc she could simultaneously use SS thousand of times before she was at her limit . There is a clear difference between the too. 1000 SS vs 1 SS. Yeah the difference is evident.

During the Oro fight she could :
?only fight Kabuto for a bit
?heal her chest
?use one SS
?summon Katusyu
? one panel Manda
? use Byakago for literally 5 seconds
? and hit Oro twice.

Against Madara she could:
? heal and chakra replinish Onoki and Gaara 
? heal herself with SS
? Chakra boost and heal her entire squad during the several hour long battle against Madara
? and have Byakago activated for literally hours
? chakra boost Onnoki so his Jinton was 10 times bigger.

Again a clear difference in her performences. 

Tsuande is primarily a CQC expert so not training one bit for 15+ years would tremendously alter her fighting ability. Not only this but drinking alcohol is known to lower endurance , reactions, and overall physical capability. She was a hardcore alcoholic by the way. She also had even more handicaps throughout the battle. For one, she was already exhausted. You realize being exhausted having alters a persons speed and reaction ? Kabuto also had full knowledge in contrast to her zero knowledge which could be the reason he lead to so many hits considering Tsuande thought she could merely block the first 2. And it's also to note that Tsuande must have been mentally unstable because of her phobia. This is the only excuse for her speed jumping tiers when she blitzed Manda and Oro. You can call it bullshittt all you want to , but it's clearly a feat, and it happens all the time in this manga( Naruto and Gai and Madara). 

Also You tend to underate Kabuto who was revered as Kakashis equal. He had an average taijustu stat which was further increased with the soldier pills. Not only this but his speed and doton skills mixed together allowed him to one panel and blitz a 4( speed) tiered Shizune casually. 

The Tsuande that fought Oro was much faster then the Tsuande that fought Kabuto . Against Kabuto she was exhausted and phobia riddled. She simply was faster against Oro. It's just like Gai against Edo Madara and Gai against Juubi Madara. Huge difference yet same character.

Madara would kill anyone here with merely Ricage Sussano. Don't lie lol.

Fair enough. Don't feel like debating an entire different thread. 

Alright.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> > Kakashi is revered as the top Jounin in the entire leaf and is easily Kage level unlike Neji. Not only this , but unlike Nejis dojutsu, Kakashis dojutsu increases his reactions immensely.  I also have no idea why you are comparing Kakashi to Neji when they clearly are far apart in skill.
> 
> 
> Pt. 1 Kakashi was a bit above Zabuza. Kakashi was an exceptional jounin but via feats he wasn't solid Kage level. It wasn't until pt. 2 that he crossed that gap by gaining more stamina by being more skilled with sharingan.
> ...


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Rusty =/= greatly weakened



Twenty years rusty and not seeing straight most certainly does.



> Kabuto reacted to her first kick and its AOE.



He only reacted when she entered free-fall, and avoided the AoE because because it was diminished by virtue of her being out of shape.



> How? He was forced to fight her in CqC, how the hell did that advantage him?



He straight up fled from her even though she was rusty, he only actually engaged her after she was tired out as well and he augmented himself with the Hyōrōgan.



> Reacts despite being in an extremely vulnerable position



That's not a vulnerable position.

Tsunade evading that grab attempt when it was mere inches away from her is more impressive than Kabuto moving out of the way in the time it took gravity to pull Tsunade back into arm's reach.



> Then after dodging her again, completely outmaneuvers her to strike



He ducked and tapped her while she was airborne, then proceeded to get tackled.



> Once again don't care about that he still hit her thrice.



Your lack of concern doesn't diminish its pertinence in determining just who was too much for who to handle.



> She was determined to kill Orochimaru and strengthend mentally not only by her future Kage rol, but Naruto himself.



That's the mindset she adopted after Orochimaru tried attacking Naruto, long after the Kabuto fight was over. Prior to that she was in a blind rage.



> You do realize Kabuto fights her off panel and off panel way before he resorts to that right?



Yes I realize he fought her. I'm also perceptive enough to realize that he didn't meet with success, and that his lack of success was the motivation for using her phobia against her.



> Then she lands her first hit on him



Her first hit was the shoulder-rush that sent Kabuto skidding, not the punch.



> No.







> Link to databook decription of taijutsu please?







> Panel please?



I'm referring to the data-book _(1)_.



> If you think Asuma's boxing style requires the same amount of skill in taijutsu as jyuuken, you are off your wagon.



I'm not, and as someone who has practiced three different martial arts styles I think I'm qualified enough to say that you're just making the mistake of lumping style and skill together as one and the same when they're not.

Kishi agrees with me considering that it's according to him that Jyūken is superior to Goken as a style, but at the same time both of Goken's practitioners score above Neji in the data-books's measurement of skill.

And Jyūken is truly not very unorthodox in comparison.



> Which lends to the fact that the DB is taking into account external things like his hien.



It doesn't. Hien is in and of itself classified as Taijutsu in the data-book , unlike enhanced strength .



> Now once again in her injured state what is she gonna do? Besides remain injured? I don't care if she is alive while isected if she can't fight she loses...and eventually she will die. Which is my point.



Bifurcation is the one injury Tsunade has sustained that she couldn't Taijutsu fight through (she could fight through Katsuyu, but that's not relevant to the thread), but all the others I've pointed out are fair game.

My point is that it doesn't immediately matter if Tsunade remains injured because for a period of time she can fight even while injured, unlike another ninja like Rin who would die quicker than she could play possum and break the Susano'o sword (and thus regeneration would never get a chance to save her).


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Twenty years rusty and not seeing straight most certainly does.


When was it stated she wasn't seeing straight? Like I said she was resolved to kill Oro, and over the whole Nawaki - dan thing.



> He only reacted when she entered free-fall, and avoided the AoE because because it was diminished by virtue of her being out of shape.


Sounds like a bunch of excuses for a medic evading her kick. 




> He straight up fled from her even though she was rusty, he only actually engaged her after she was tired out as well and he augmented himself with the Hyōrōgan.


No he straight up fled to escape to stone town which was bound to get him and Oro killed. He took her to a field to avoid such things and so that he could approach her in CqC. 

Hence why after the soldier pill he immediately starts outmanevuring her. No Taijutsu master no matter how rusty is gonna allow such a thing to happen in a fair 1v1 fight.




> That's not a vulnerable position.


Get the hell out of here.

Being right under Tsunade as she just reacted to and being partially underground? If tsunade was as fast and reactive as you are claiming Kabuto would have gotten hit like a whop a mole, and never come back up. He not only escaped her attack, but completely outmaneuvered her to her vulnerable spot.



> Tsunade evading that grab attempt when it was mere inches away from her is more impressive than Kabuto moving out of the way in the time it took gravity to pull Tsunade back into arm's reach.


Not at all because Kabuto went from partially underground to completely out of her way after Tsunade dodged his arms emerging, and went to attack, then before she could even look his way, completely shadow her.





> He ducked and tapped her while she was airborne, then proceeded to get tackled.


He tapped her because that is how you apply pt. 1 chakra scalpel. He didn't have as much control as he did in pt. 2 (when he could use it similar to raikiri.), Tsunade hit him with her shoulder because that is the only move she had left after realizing what he had done.




> That's the mindset she adopted after Orochimaru tried attacking Naruto, long after the Kabuto fight was over. Prior to that she was in a blind rage.


She was not in a blind rage that was hyperbole after seeing the land (which should be apart of any Tsunade fight lasting more than 1 hit), she had a plan, and actively tried to assassinate him showing clear thought and pre meditation. She wanted Oro dead because she knew he would attack Konoha again after killing their master.




> Yes I realize he fought her. I'm also perceptive enough to realize that he didn't meet with success, and that his lack of success was the motivation for using her phobia against her.


Injuring Tsunade so much that she has to heal herself isn't success? If garbage ass Kabuto could hit her three times, Prodigy Neji would do so much more and with each hit erase her chakra.





> Her first hit was the shoulder-rush that sent Kabuto skidding, not the punch.


That was like half a hit, which was her reacting to being cut by Kabuto. Kabuto got three direct hits before she got 1.


Craft picture but no argument, the best kind of concessions.

Is that the same one that calls pt. 1 Lee a master, and the Jyuuken unrivaled in taijutsu 






> I'm not, and as someone who practices three different martial arts styles I think I'm qualified enough to say that you're just making the mistake of lumping style and skill together as one and the same when they're not.


I practiced martial arts as well. Neji was not doing that for style points, he was actively countering the clones trying to attack his weak spots.

Furthermore as a fighter you should timed acrobatics like that are extremely hard to perform and be effective with especially against multiple opponents.

You should alsorealize how deadly internal damage is.

You should also realize how skilled one has to be to completely learn a discipline simply by watching and not being actively taught, especially when said person is 13 with full profiency. Neji is like 2 Dan Black belt, as Hiashi was completely surprised he could use Kaiten and Jyuuken fully.



> Kishi agrees with me considering that it's according to him that Jyūken is superior to Goken as a style, but at the same time both of Goken's practitioners score above Neji in the data-books's measurement of skill.


So databook stats are now going over cannon 

Lee stated he was inferior to Neji despite having Gates. The author claims that Jyuuken > Goken. The author highlights Neji as the forerunner to take over the clan and a prodigy above the rest, yet he is inferior to Lee  come on bruh. Feats and facts are just that, you can't pick and choose.

And Jyūken is truly not very unorthodox in comparison.





> It doesn't. Hien is in and of itself classified as Taijutsu in the data-book , unlike enhanced strength .


It still directly effects her tajutsu abiity and is a staple of her fighting style. Like how beast clone jutsu is ninjutsu but factors into Kiba's overall standing.





> Bifurcation is the one injury has sustained that she couldn't Taijutsu fight through (she could fight through Katsuyu, but that's not relevant to the thread), but all the others I've pointed out are fair game.
> 
> My point is that it doesn't immediately matter if Tsunade remains injured because for a period of time she can fight even while injured, unlike another ninja like Rin who would die quicker than she could play possum and break the Susano'o sword (and thus regeneration would never get a chance to save her).


No she can't.
-Tsunade needed to heal from Kabuto's baby ass chakra scalpel.

-Tsunade did not break Susano and chase Madara in base. Had she remained in base she would have remained a shichkabob . 

-She needed Yin seal to recover from getting stabbed and sliced by Oro. Without healing she isn't going to be able to fight, just cause she survives doesn't mean she is battle effective without healing the injury. You can't walk without legs bruh


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> When was it stated she wasn't seeing straight?



If it wasn't obvious enough when she was brought to tears before she darted at them because of Dan and Nawaki's memories being disrespected, then I can't help you.



> Like I said she was resolved to kill Oro, and over the whole Nawaki - dan thing.



She wasn't over it- it was the reason she was after him to begin with. Hokageship wasn't decided until she saw Naruto master the Rasengan and not die like Dan and Nawaki.



> Sounds like a bunch of excuses for a medic evading her kick.



This sounds like you being willfully ignorant, quite frankly.



> No he straight up fled to escape to stone town which was bound to get him and Oro killed. He took her to a field to avoid such things and so that he could approach her in CqC.



Notice that the gigantic castle complex, and the town itself that it is located in, isn't even visible. That's how far out into the field they are.

They had left the obstructions behind a while ago, but Kabuto still wasn't fighting her. It isn't until we get Orochimaru's "It seems Tsunade is out of breath...it's time" comment that he ingests the enhancement pill and actually approaches her.



> Hence why after the soldier pill he immediately starts outmanevuring her.



He didn't immediately start outmaneuvering her. She dodged his initial assault and then he dodged hers, he dodged her next one and then took a hit during a trade.



> No Taijutsu master no matter how rusty is gonna allow such a thing to happen in a fair 1v1 fight.



That's not by any stretch an objective or at all substantiated observation you have there, and "fair" hardly describes the circumstances.



> Being right under Tsunade as she just reacted to and being partially underground? If tsunade was as fast and reactive as you are claiming Kabuto would have gotten hit like a whop a mole, and never come back up. He not only escaped her attack, but completely outmaneuvered her to her vulnerable spot.



Tsunade leapt upwards in order to evade, leaving her _out of arm's reach_ and her speed _in gravity's control_. Kabuto was still in a position to leap out of the tunnel unhindered, and he only had to do it before gravity let Tsunade back into reach instead of her own efforts getting her there.

The dodge is the only thing that exemplifies out of breath and out of practice Tsunade's reactions in that sequence, as she was forced to wait until she fell further down before she could strike back at Kabuto.



> Then before she could even look his way, completely shadow her.



Don't give me this "before she could even look his way" when the panel shows her eyes right on him.



> He tapped her because that is how you apply pt. 1 chakra scalpel. He didn't have as much control as he did in pt. 2 (when he could use it similar to raikiri.), Tsunade hit him with her shoulder because that is the only move she had left after realizing what he had done.



...And?

I can guess _why_ he tapped her and _why_ Tsunade went with the shoulder rush. That doesn't detract from the fact that Tsunade managed to hit him in the process.



> She was not in a blind rage that was hyperbole after seeing the land (which should be apart of any Tsunade fight lasting more than 1 hit), she had a plan, and actively tried to assassinate him showing clear thought and pre meditation.



You've ignored the fact that she tried that _before_ reflecting on her mistake, Dan/Nawaki and Orochimaru's offer one last time and visibly regressing in her state of mind before attacking again.

The fact that she grit her teeth and growled like a wolf or something before brazenly knocking Jiraiya out of the way when flashbacks and Jiraiya's own words suggest Tsunade was the most sensible of the them is just more evidence of it.



> Injuring Tsunade so much that she has to heal herself isn't success?



No, because making her try to heal wasn't his aim. His aim was to subdue her, which he couldn't accomplish without her phobia, thus his steroids, medical Ninjutsu and Taijutsu were unsuccessful against her.



> If garbage ass Kabuto could hit her three times, Prodigy Neji would do so much more and with each hit erase her chakra.



Kabuto isn't garbage.

The difference between a fit Tsunade and the extremely out-of-shape, extremely out-of-practice, and additionally out-of-breath version that Kabuto fought with doesn't fit anywhere into that equation.

And temporarily blocking off her Chakra points isn't sufficient to beat her- his Jyūken will leave her muscles intact which means she'll still have the strength to finish him in one shot.



> That was like half a hit.



It's a legitimate Taijutsu maneuver that she landed the moment he managed to land something on her.



> Craft picture but no argument, the best kind of concessions.



The irony in this sentence is hilarious. It's as if you think saying "no" and nothing else besides it is something I need to bother with taking time on.



> Is that the same one that calls pt. 1 Lee a master, and the Jyuuken unrivaled in taijutsu



Idk.

I'm pretty sure only Part 2 Lee was ever called a master, though.



> I practiced martial arts as well.



What kind(s)? :33



> Neji was not doing that for style points, he was actively countering the clones trying to attack his weak spots.
> 
> Furthermore as a fighter you should timed acrobatics like that are extremely hard to perform and be effective with especially against multiple opponents.



And yet slaughtering a _Kage Bunshin_ crowd is something Kabuto could do with ease. He did it on panel before blocking a surprise shot from Shizune, Jiraiya then said _Kage Bunshin_ was useless even as a diversion, and later Tsunade thought he was going to die the last time he attempted it (though he ended up not making use of it in that way, but the precedent for what would have happened with the Neji tactic is there).

Kabuto even said Naruto was nothing but a tiny bug even expecting something from the Nine Tails, and he was there to witness Naruto's battle with Neji. So....handling _Kage Bunshin no Jutsu_ doesn't elevate Neji above anyone.



> You should also realize how deadly internal damage is.



More skill may lead to a higher lethality but a higher lethality doesn't necessarily lead to more skill.



> You should also realize how skilled one has to be to completely learn a discipline simply by watching and not being actively taught



The term you're looking for is "naturally talented*", not "skilled". There is a difference.



> So databook stats are now going over cannon



Data-book stats _are_ canon.



> Lee stated he was inferior to Neji despite having Gates. The author claims that Jyuuken > Goken. The author highlights Neji as the forerunner to take over the clan and a prodigy above the rest, yet he is inferior to Lee  come on bruh. Feats and facts are just that, you can't pick and choose.



I'm not picking and choosing; I just make a habit out of trying to find a connection between seemingly unrelated and/or contradictory bits of information before I throw any out.

In Part 1, Neji and Lee shared a skill tier in the first data-book and Neji scored higher in the second; it's only in the third that Lee scores higher than Neji, and Lee didn't say he was inferior to Neji in Part 2.

Thus, there is no contradiction.

By Part 2 Neji _is_ inferior to Lee in Taijutsu skill.



> It still directly effects her tajutsu abiity and is a staple of her fighting style. Like how beast clone jutsu is ninjutsu but factors into Kiba's overall standing.



That doesn't mean it factors into their Taijutsu score.



> No she can't.
> -Tsunade needed to heal from Kabuto's baby ass chakra scalpel.



She hit him with _Ranshinshō_ and then knocked his face into the dirt _before_ trying to heal.



> -Tsunade did not break Susano and chase Madara in base. Had she remained in base she would have remained a shichkabob.



I've gone over why she may as well have been multiple times.

Tsunade's regeneration being a factor is contingent on it being able to do its job; Tsunade's cells and Madara's weapons cannot occupy the same space at the same time; Madara's sword was still inside her when she broke it.

Tsunade's regeneration being active had nothing to do with her ability to break the swords and continue moving around and attacking because it wasn't able to take effect until _after she removed the swords_.

If you can't grasp that concept, then we've nothing to discuss.



> -She needed Yin seal to recover from getting stabbed and sliced by Oro.



She intercepted him multiple times and decked him _before_ healing.


----------



## OG Appachai (Jul 7, 2014)

had to work again all day, sorry for late reply



FlamingRain said:


> I'm not just implying it, that is exactly what I'm expressly saying.
> 
> You know every time Tsunade got impaled by a Susano'o sword she kept attacking before removing it (in other words,* before the regeneration could actually get to going*), which means her base resilience is simply that high.



nope your making things up. byakugo is auto regen however you twist your words wont change that. Whether or not the swords were inside her or not fact of the matter is she was able to survive because of her justu once again, it keeps her alive, thats the whole point of the jutsu it heals her continuosly. Youre giving byakugou surviavl feats to base tsunade.* If tsunade was in base she would have died* no way around it. She can resist pain all she wants to, she still dies.




FlamingRain said:


> If her whole body was sent through her whole body went through the same stress, which means that if _anything_ inside Tsunade took damage it _everything_ inside Tsunade was put under that same stress because _all_ of it went through the same Jutsu. It's nothing but wishful thinking that her organs just conveniently went unaffected.



the body is the container for the organs, her body protects her organs, its not like each individual piece of her went through the jutsu one at a time. 

 If im flying a jet going at 800mph does that mean that my body can handle the outside  G forces? Fuck no, because the jet itself is protecting me. Same thing with tsunade, durable outside, soft and squishy insides like any other ninja so it is good reasoning to believe her insides were unharmed.





FlamingRain said:


> Yes.


gentle fist attacks damages tsuandes insides, mabui's jutsu damage tsuandes outsides. 2 different things




FlamingRain said:


> The Tenketsu are physical parts of the body and can be reached like anything else can- Kabuto severed all of Naruto's near his heart with one strike of his scalpels, compared to Neji's 64 Jyūken hits to simply block them off for a while, and Kabuto was able to outright prevent Naruto from drawing on the fox's power unlike Neji.



Wrong wrong and wrong. tenketsu are the points at which chakra is expelled from the body, Kabuto cut the chakra pathway lines. The chakra pathway system is not something you can touch physically its not the same as blood vessels or veins. Thats why chakra is needed to actually do damage or touch it, example being gentle fist and chakra scalpel. And wrong again in the fact that naruto was still able to get the fox's chakra to heal from why did you think kishi showed these panels with the fox;s cage? and on the page before with panels focusing on naruto's seal. Tsnades healing didnt do anything, check the pages after it, she was literally begging naruto not to die, practically panicking, doesnt seem like the words someone would use if they were confident in healing someone

But i digress, this is irrelevent seeing as this is a taijutsu fight and tsunade desnt have the option of healing  in this fight. Not that tenketsu (not that neji damages them anyway) can be healed anyway. Neji doesnt damage the pathway system, he closes tenketsu cutting off chakra thus effecting organs at the same time too.





FlamingRain said:


> Dude, that is where the heart is: .
> 
> The spine, too, actually.



my bad, i thought it was further right. you were right. But fact still remains that she was in no condition to fight for a long period of time sure she was able to move for like 30 secinds to a minute afterwards but  she needed to heal from those injuries in order to fighting and not die. Base tsunade cant keep fighting with a destroyed heart.





FlamingRain said:


> Now you're just being intentionally stupid.


im stupid because i disagree with you huh, get over yourself its just a manga relax no need to take shots at people.


----------



## OG Appachai (Jul 7, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> _Byakugō_ only keeps you alive after something if you can survive it in the first place. _Byakugō_ cannot have an effect on you while a weapon is still lodged inside, because the weapon is still occupying the space where the cells need to divide, forestalling the regeneration process.



byakugou is auto regen, its doesnt stop until the user runs out of chakra, it doesnt stop because something is in the way it continuously heals the user thus keeping them from dying, once again just because you twist your words to fit your claim doesnt make it right. Without *byakugou, tsunade would be dead*, no matter how many times you pretty up your words this fact does not change. But again all of this is irrelevent seeing has she does not have access to it in this fight .




FlamingRain said:


> Her collapse had to do with her stamina finally whittling down, not her pain threshold being eclipsed, which is why Ay explicitly brings up the concern of her running out soon if she keeps berserking like that, and why she took the knee for as long as she did (because her regeneration works faster than that- she wasn't waiting on it).


she claearly shouts out "guh" indicating pain bro.






FlamingRain said:


> I just said I was talking about _Neji's_ hits when I said "string of hits". I meant Neji will not find the time to execute that combination without getting his face smacked off _because she can ignore it_.


Gotta be more specific m8. Neji doesnt need to do 64 palms close chakra points his normal jabs and combos are more than enough to move in and out and around her singular punches.



FlamingRain said:


> Shizune had warned her that she'd had too much to drink already by the time Jiraiya and Naruto showed up and she was red in the face for the entirety of the skirmish.


Doesnt mean she was drunk she was obviously thinking and moving clearly, throughout the whole encounter, Rosy cheeks are a indication of someone drinking alcohol in anime not someone being shitfaced. Its the person's actions themselves that determine if they'e drunk, hence why something like the field sobriety test exists, a person's motor skills and movements are taken into account.



FlamingRain said:


> That's besides the point. The fact is that she can string actions together in succession when you tried to act like she couldn't for whatever reason.


Its the entire point. Naruto was a genin with no skill in anything besides shadow clones, minor trickery and a large chakra reserve. ANYONE and i mean ANYONE of notable skill could have done ANYTHING to him. So tsunade doing something out of the ordinary of her normal repertoire is no accomplishment.



FlamingRain said:


> Because the first time she hit them they either got immobilized, exploded or sent flying away. You cannot use that as a grounds to say she can't do it when she had no incentive to try it in those scenarios.



Wrong, an immediate second hit after she scrambled kabutos nerves would have done a great deal of damage to him probably even KO'ing him since she didnt have her normal str but she didnt because its not in her style. An immediate bum rush after she hit oro to the ground and was just laying there for a bit would have been nice, but she didnt because its not in her style.  A follow up hit after she punched the clone to the ground probably could have been enough to break its susano down but she didnt. You know what im getting from this? Its not in her style.




FlamingRain said:


> Irrelevant. It is still a Taijutsu maneuver and would still kill anybody who couldn't sever her muscles with a tap like Kabuto.


that doesnt matter, she would never catach anyone with notable taijutsu skill with a shoulder charge in a normal situation. Dont change the subject, its not a punch of kick so she doesnt need to cock back for it, once again every every single punch or kick she throws has a wide looping motion with a heavy followthrough. 




FlamingRain said:


> Still irrelevant, because if her strength was at its norm her hand making contact would still kill and I've already highlighted why Chakra-charging makes no difference in the execution time.


That doenst make any sense, say if she did have her strength at the time, whats the point of even having that jutsu and using that jutsu when she can just snap kabuto's neck without the need to scramble nerves. Your just reaching now.



FlamingRain said:


> Nothing about her posture suggests a wind up.


hunched forward with right arm hanging down in front her her suggests otherwise



FlamingRain said:


> She did not, she tugged on Orochimaru's tongue. That's not the same as rearing back for a punch, nor would it replace rearing back if that was actually required.


either way it was still a part of the motion. if she would having tugged on oro with her left hand punched with her right she would have still cocked back given all he other instances of her  punching a person or a thing.




FlamingRain said:


> Neji's not faster than Tsunade.
> 
> Obliterating someone in one hit is more efficient than jabbing them 64 times and only  hurting them.



yes he is faster his databook stat says so and manga feat does too. From a style standpoint only jabbing and hitting your target is more efficient than throwing a haymaker and missing,



FlamingRain said:


> It bypasses outward _durability_- _resiliency_ applies to the inside and out.


hurr durr, shes still a normal ninja on the inside and her organs can still be damaged , a person cannot train themselves to withstand internal damage.



FlamingRain said:


> And yet any of the Jōnin could reach him from the top of the spectator areas before he could reach Hinata a couple feet away. Kakashi couldn't catch Kabuto after he fled Sasuke's hospital room, and Kabuto couldn't touch Tsunade even when he was on ninja steroids until she was airborne..



Not any but these instances are irrelevent to the point seeing as neji was running on emotions and didnt a choreographed movement, also being the fact that kakashi, gai and kurenai were all faster than him at the time and probably couldnt do that to current neji. Kabuto had the advantage of being out of line of sight and changing his face, and kabuto literally did like 2 moves before he got her tsuande being caught in mid air is her own fault. 

Neji's speed feat is is in no way comparable to anything you just posted.




FlamingRain said:


> The databook does not take Chakra-intensive movements into account concerning the speed statistic, because they are more Ninjutsu-esque applications. Sakura blitzed someone an entire 1.5 tiers faster than her with Chakra-intensive movements, Tsunade blitzed Shizune .5 tiers faster than her, caught 4.5 Orochimaru before he could move out of the way despite an inconvenient starting position, and intercepted Manda while carrying a giant sword that could have only slowed her down.



caught shizune off gaurd, caught oro off gaurd too plus she was literally 5 feet away from him. And an interception feat is not a justifiable speed feat. Put tsunade in a situation vs oro with working arms and both standing, and tsunade would not have done that seeing as she could not blitz kabuto when they were face to face. Current neji with part 1 speed and reaction feat scaled up is faster than tsunade



FlamingRain said:


> The only thing I'm implying is that Tsunade will expect its attempt and act accordingly.


she cannot expect something that acts faster than her.




FlamingRain said:


> He can't blow her back if she recognizes the spin and changes the course of her strike.


kaiten's activation is almost instant you're overestimatin tsnades reflexes.



FlamingRain said:


> With Hiashi's help.


despite his help 50% of a juubi limb strike is still astronger than tsunade punches


----------



## Orochimaru (Jul 7, 2014)

Which Neji are we talking? Genin, Jounin? Future Neji had he lived? I think he's the only one who can take her in terms of Taijutsu.


----------



## OG Appachai (Jul 7, 2014)

yea current neji


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 7, 2014)

*Yo Dr. White.*

Could Kabuto tango with Madara?

In the answer is no, then why are you talking about Tsunade's Kabuto fight like her skills between rusty and in fighting condition aren't anything to write home about?

If the answer is yes, I'm going to laugh really really hard, and then politely apologize and respect your opinion because it's mean to laugh at people and I'll feel bad.

Also, like.  Neji dancing around Tsunade implies that Tsunade would get swarmed by the vastly superior and faster white Zetsu Neji had trouble repelling.  It also means sort of implies that Tsunade's speed and skill is less than a bunch of Zetsu.  The last time I checked, generic Zetsu aren't that fantastic, and loads of them got killed by chunin fodder.  His feats prior to that are getting owned by the not particularly fast water clone of shoten Kisame.  

Shoten Kisame is at 30%.  Then he made 3 clones, and one water clone is at 1/10th of the users normal ability.  3 brings you to 1/30th.  If you recall, 100% Zabuza made a handful of clones, and they all got bamflashed by wave arc Sasuke, to the power and skill and speed dilution of water clones is massive feat-wise.  

Like yo dawg.  Neji's cool, and the Hyuuga are the strongest clan, but he That was made apparent when he had to suicide to stop a splinter his Uncle could repel with killing intent.



> *Flaiming Rain*
> I'm not, and as someone who has practiced three different martial arts styles I think I'm qualified enough to say that you're just making the mistake of lumping style and skill together as one and the same when they're not.



That's awesome.  What styles did you practice?

And yeah, the style you use doesn't indicate your skill level at that style.  You can have a super awesome style and suck at it, like P1 Hinata, which can cause you to get whooped by a person with a sub-par style that's really awesome at it, like P1 Lee.

Also you got an award in the BD awards ceremony. Go check it out and claim your prize.  Might I suggest an absurdly large avi?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 7, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I don't know if i am wrong, but i guess that was directed to me.
> 
> I didn't say Neji would defeat her in a taijutsu battle. I said that if Air Palm, the one that was stopping the huge Juubi limbs affects the internal organs just like his gentle fist, but in a wider area since it's bigger, then he is winning this more times than not because Tsunade would be being hit by invisible blasts of chakra destroying air that will send her flying back with enough force, and without healing, she is hardly beating this Neji.
> 
> ...



It was directed at Dr. White, I never read your post.

Neji's Air Palm doesn't possess any feats that show it could blitz someone of Tsunade's level though. It may be an invisible blast of air, but once Tsunade has seen it once she'll know to jump as soon as Neji moves his arm for the technique. The movement for the Air Palm is really predictable, especially for someone whose trained herself in attack prediction. It did manage to hit 30% Kisame - who is an accomplished taijutsu fighter, but only because he was already pre-occupied in close quarters with Rock Lee, never mind the fact that he was in mid-air and couldn't dodge in the first place [1] 

It's not exactly like Air Palm did any significant damage to 30% Kisame either, who was still effortlessly using ninjutsu even after being hit. It does attack the vital organs, like any regular Jyuuken strike does:



			
				Databook 3 said:
			
		

> Eight Trigrams* Vacuum Palm (八卦空掌, Hakke Kuushou)
> Taijutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, Short to mid-range (0-10m)
> User: Hyuuga Neji
> 
> ...



But given that Kisame was effortlessly using ninjutsu and taijutsu afterwards, it's safe to conclude that the internal damage it inflicts is minimal, especially to someone as resilient and durable as Tsunade.
​​


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jul 7, 2014)

Neji defeats her in Taijutsu. For sure.

Neji's reflexes are actually very, very good []. Someone as sluggish as Tsunade isn't landing a hit on him. Her strikes are far too linear.

> Neji's rotation [] (beginning of the rotation here) will put Tsunade off balance like it did Naruto, and those sand nin Hiashi soloed. 

Then Neji blitzes her with Jyuuken to the heart, just like he did Kidomaru despite being half dead, having to cover around 200m of ground and having a gaping hole in his chest.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 7, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> It was directed at Dr. White, I never read your post.
> 
> Neji's Air Palm doesn't possess any feats that show it could blitz someone of Tsunade's level though. It may be an invisible blast of air, but once Tsunade has seen it once she'll know to jump as soon as Neji moves his arm for the technique. The movement for the Air Palm is really predictable, especially for someone whose trained herself in attack prediction. It did manage to hit 30% Kisame - who is an accomplished taijutsu fighter, but only because he was already pre-occupied in close quarters with Rock Lee, never mind the fact that he was in mid-air and couldn't dodge in the first place [1]​




An attack doesn't have to necessarily blitz to hit an opponent. Even then, the Vacuum palm is said in the same Databook that it's a super fast palm attack, therefore i disagree that it is predictable and that someone at the level of speed of Tsunade can dodge it most of the times, though.

Neji fell, turned around and shot the palm before Lee could even fall an inch, and he was in mid-air.



> It's not exactly like Air Palm did any significant damage to 30% Kisame either, who was still effortlessly using ninjutsu even after being hit. It does attack the vital organs, like any regular Jyuuken strike does:
> 
> But given that Kisame was effortlessly using ninjutsu and taijutsu afterwards, it's safe to conclude that the internal damage it inflicts is minimal, especially to someone as resilient and durable as Tsunade.


​
I give you that. However, i wouldn't compare that palm attack with the one scaled to stop the Juubi limbs, therefore it could and it could not do internal damage to her considering how powerful were the Juubi's arms, even if she is very durable.

But i am still in the same view. If it manages to harm her, considering that his attack got incredibly more powerful, then i see him winning more times than not against this nerfed version of Tsunade. If it doesn't, then i see her outlasting him most of the times. Maybe it's just me, but i don't see Neji too bad in order to lose all the times against her without summoning and healing.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 7, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Yo Dr. White.*


POW I understand you are obligated via the Blondie Contract of Hyrule to defend your fellow bleach heads, I really do, but this post brought a tear to my eye (like the Natives).



> Could Kabuto tango with Madara?


Lol, can Tsunade tango with Madara in CqC? No...

I guarantee you Neji stands much better chance than Kabuto...




> In the answer is no, then why are you talking about Tsunade's Kabuto fight like her skills between rusty and in fighting condition aren't anything to write home about?


Show me Madara fighting Tsunadw 1 v 1 with killer intent, and I'll eat my words and praise Tsunade on high. Until I don't understand your point.

She had 4 other Kage level ninja with her, and Madara was just fucking around until he needed to peace.



> If the answer is yes, I'm going to laugh really really hard, and then politely apologize and respect your opinion because it's mean to laugh at people and I'll feel bad.


POW you know I could never stay mad at you.



> Also, like.  Neji dancing around Tsunade implies that Tsunade would get swarmed by the vastly superior and faster white Zetsu Neji had trouble repelling.  It also means sort of implies that Tsunade's speed and skill is less than a bunch of Zetsu.  The last time I checked, generic Zetsu aren't that fantastic, and loads of them got killed by chunin fodder.  His feats prior to that are getting owned by the not particularly fast water clone of shoten Kisame.


False equation. If Tsunade was fighting for hours on hours against thousands of zetsu (which can pop up out of the earth and shit) I guarantee you more than 3 (very specific number here POW) could grab her and copy her chakra signature. You act like Neji came fresh out the shower to battle, and 2 Zetsu just ganged him. 



> Shoten Kisame is at 30%.  Then he made 3 clones, and one water clone is at 1/10th of the users normal ability.  3 brings you to 1/30th.  If you recall, 100% Zabuza made a handful of clones, and they all got bamflashed by wave arc Sasuke, to the power and skill and speed dilution of water clones is massive feat-wise.


Kisame > Zabuza. Bjuu level chakra > Pt. 1 Jonin level chakra. Neji himself stated Kisame at 30% was comparable to pt. 2 Naruto....

The water jutsu caught the team of CqC oriented rookies off guard by swallowing their physical attacks into him. The fact he got out was more impressive. 



> Like yo dawg.  Neji's cool, and the Hyuuga are the strongest clan, but he That was made apparent when he had to suicide to stop a splinter his Uncle could repel with killing intent.


In Pt. 1 Kishi specifically stated Neji was a prodigy of the Hyuuga who passed most others. Hiashi was dumbfounded that Neji could learn Jyuuken's secret techniques simply by watching (having a secret sharingan).

Neji was promoted to Jonin, no one else  despite the smarts of Shikamaru, the raw power of Chouji, the Taijutsu/Gates of Lee, the medical knowledge/strength of Sakura, etc. Which means he must have really excelled to be elevated to a state Gai was (which Lee was not despite atleast having 5 gates on top of his pt. 2 reactions/speed).

Not only this, his Kaiten was exactly as big as Hiashi's and he was the only Hyuuga next to the clan leader. 





> That's awesome.  What styles did you practice?


Taekwondo/Hapkido, because legs >. I had to stop because of financial reasons (broke college kid) but I was pretty good and wanna pick it up again.



> And yeah, the style you use doesn't indicate your skill level at that style.  You can have a super awesome style and suck at it, like P1 Hinata, which can cause you to get whooped by a person with a sub-par style that's really awesome at it, like P1 Lee.


that isn't my argument though. My argument is that Neji excelled at one of the hardest Taijutsu's at age 13, something Hiashi was dumbfounded at. There is no reason for him to give brach house Neji that much credit.

Using Hinata here is irrelevant because her Taijutsu skill is <<< Lee's. So the style doesn't matter (also implying Lee's Goken isn't skillful isn't really accurate.). Also Tsunade doesn't have a discipline. She is more of a brawler, using what feels right to her, or what is available. She has 3 offensive moves all in all:
-Punch
-Kick
-Shoulder Guy

On top of this she evades (which every shinobi should instinctively do lol) via her base senses which shouldn't even be above Kakashi's method of air currents and smell. (I'm not discounting her reflexes but the notion that her "evasion style" is anything more than her training her reactions).

Gai and Lee actually use a formal style with moves, rules, and form. It isn't as pretty as Jyuuken, but still effective and very hard to pull of from a physical standpoint.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Likes boss said:
> 
> 
> > Pt. 1 Kakashi was a bit above Zabuza. Kakashi was an exceptional jounin but via feats he wasn't solid Kage level. It wasn't until pt. 2 that he crossed that gap by gaining more stamina by being more skilled with sharingan.
> ...


----------



## Veracity (Jul 7, 2014)

Tsunade didn't comment on kabutos ability until he had already hit her: quick ass jutsu speed.
Not only this but she only commented on the fact that he was a medical ninja, not that she knew the mechanics of his Justu. That's exactly why she was so shocked at his ability.  This also just isn't Kabuto throwing hands. He popped a pill that increased his physical stats and used doton to attack from her blind spots. He'd actually have a far chance against Neji with his doton and medical Ninjustu skills.

Okay do I gotta explain this again ? The Tsuande that fought Oro was faster then the one that fought Kabuto . Why!? Because she was off her phobia and Kishi tends to give characters specific power boosts at random times. Like Sasukes reaction between the Kabuto and Juubito arc or Gais ridiculous gates speed against juubidara. It doesn't really actually have to make sense as long as we have evidence that her speed and reactions got better between when she fought Kabuto and when she fought Oro.

Shizune still has a 4 in speed which reflects on her reactions. Even with this stat Kabuto through doton master could blitz and one panel her.  

Yo are you serious? You realize that Oros arms don't do diddly squat for him in that circumstance. He doesn't even use his arms to run lol. He outright GOT BLITZED. If he couldn't move his neck or now feet at all then it was a blitz. Not only was it a blitzed but Tsuande had to crawl off the ground to do so while her lungs were destroyed. Imagine how much faster she could move if her lungs weren't in pieces ? 

Just because Madara was toying with the Kage doesn't mean he didn't want them dead. Tsuande still had 2 swords impeded through her mid section. Madara was clearly trying to kill her.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 7, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> An attack doesn't have to necessarily blitz to hit an opponent. Even then, the Vacuum palm is said in the same Databook that it's a super fast palm attack, therefore i disagree that it is predictable and that someone at the level of speed of Tsunade can dodge it most of the times, though.



In this case, it would almost certainly have to blitz her if it was to make contact. Neji sits at a range and fires a blast of air at her, and if it hits her before she has time to react, it's a blitz. If it doesn't, it isn't. There's no grey area here, it's pretty black or white.

The databook claims a lot of attacks to be fast, many of which wouldn't hit Tsunade either - Gatsuuga, Tsubaki no Mai, Shikyaku no Jutsu etc. It may be fast, but so is Tsunade. Nothing suggests that it could hit her by merit of it's speed alone.

Also, the attack being fast has absolutely nothing to do with it's predictability. We can see from Neji's usage of the technique that it _is_ predictable. He just thrusts his palm forward in a linear motion, so Tsunade should be able to tell when he's about to use it/using it, and move accordingly.



> Neji fell, turned around and shot the palm before Lee could even fall an inch, and he was in mid-air.



That's hardly a very quantifiable speed feat though, is it? It shows that the technique is swift, but the databook already established that. Does it show that it could hit Tsunade before she could move out of the way? No.




> I give you that. However, i wouldn't compare that palm attack with the one scaled to stop the Juubi limbs, therefore it could and it could not do internal damage to her considering how powerful were the Juubi's arms, even if she is very durable.



When did Neji use a Hakke Koushou to repel the Juubi's arms?​​


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 7, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> It doesn't matter at all considering you said that because Kakashi is a Jounin he wouldn't get blitzed by Tsuande when in reality in he still is a Jounin but has the ability of a mid tiered Kage.


I gave you a Jonin level fighter (I'm talking tiers now not rank) who could not get blitzed by Tsunade. I also pointed out Neji's great Taijutsu prowess and enhanced reactions feats via byakugan, but you dismissed it with no argument, not my fault.

Just because Kakashi grew as a Jonin (rank) to mid kage tier (tier wise) doesn't take away from the fact that Tsunade can't blitz people like his inferior version or even Zabuza.



> It's very clear that Gai and Kakashi are the only exceptions to this Jounin rule. Every single other Jounin in the entire manga has been at Jounin level except this two.


-Darui is arguably Low Kage level, as well as Kitsuchi.
-Hiashi is 100% not Jonin level and falls somehwere between the high end of Elite Jonin, and low to mid end of Low Kage via hype, feats, and portrayal.



> Do Neji being a Jounin doesn't make him any special at all. Especially considering his reactions aren't even close to a Sharingan weilding elite Jounin like Kakashi. Even part 1 Kakashi....


-Yes it fucking does. All of the Konoha rookies are special, do you not understand this? All of them immensely crafted their skills, and Neji stood out as worthy of promotion meaning he crafted his Jyuuken/Byakugan more than they did their things. Neji could fucking pull off moves as a 13 year old non Main House member that surpised Hiashi.

-Tsunade herself hyped Neji's battlefield instinct.

-Neji was stated to have surpassed all other Hyuuga including his uncle Hiashi. 

-Byakugan and Jyuuken allows for enhanced reactions are you fucking kidding me  
-Near 360 visions means tracking of even faster opponents (Hebi Sauce isn't even blitzing Neji and he is > Tsunade in speed)
-Years of training in close quarters to hit accurately and doge attack using ones vision.
-64 Palm users have a field of Hakke. This allows them an area in which they can detect the slightest of movements and essentially see everything, it was why they can attack so fast, so accurately in succession. This is why Hinata (imperfect palm user) tripped on a rock when trying to execute the technique. Neji's Jyuuken as a genin is > Main branch house Hinata's  
-Last but not least, Neji can emit a barrier of chakra around his body, which will alert him to things positions even in his byakugan's blind spot. This was good enough to pinpoint an arrow moving at hundreds of feet per second, when it got within no more than 30 feet of him and reacted to it.

Go home with your downplay bias bullshit.

It is fucking cannon that Neji is one of the most skilled Taijutsu users, and extremely gifted among the rookies.



> Can you show me the panel where it says this ? And that doesn't really mean much. Just a hyperbole given to the clan by Kishi for part 1 purposes. In case you haven't noticed the hyuga are pretty useless. They don't really amount for shit and all this hype you seem to grant them seems to not equal out.


-Lee states it outright because he is honest.

Hiashi also states it, and it's a universal thing in Konoha.

You also can't ask for scans, and then try and say scans wouldn't help. Those are two conflicting things, indicating you're reaching now.

Also ever since this manga turned into DBZ 2 every clan has been useless in a grand scheme, everyone has helped here and there to support but overall Uchiha, Senju, Jinchuriki, Uzumaki, etc rule. (not counting Tsunade who tier wise is only mid Kage level)



> What the hell has Neji done to deserve any of that hype ? Atleast Tsuande performs at the level of hype she is given. Nejis best feat is reacting to Kidomaru, who is a low Jounin leveled ninja. His greatest feat is defeating 2 Jounin with the aid of 3 equally as powerful ninja. He would get trashed against a Sannin member in any given scenario possible.


He is fucking powerscaled off of Hashi since Kishi states he fucking surpassed him. Tsunade isn't blitzing even lee in CqC who without upper gates is inferior to Neji. 

-Kidomaru's arrow were moving with enough velocity to mangle trees, and plow through solid thick trees, and continue moving at almost moax velocity. I don't wanna hear your bullshit. Kishi drew the scenes and the burden of proof is on you to prove Kishi wasn't portraying them as ridiculously fast.

-Lee despite having gates (which by feats even as a gennin shits on Tsunade's feats, if you wanna go feats only) admits inferiority to Neji both post and pre skip. If Base Gai can't beat his two students (which trained with him nearly every day) Tsunade doesn't stand a chance in hell.

-Powerscaling dictates Neji isn't getting blitzed by Lee (up to lower gates), Base Gai, or anyone who pretty much isn't around 5th gate/V1 Ei speed. 



> It doesn't matter if Obito is a projectile or not are you serious ? You realize that the arrow was causing terrain damage from hovering above the ground at high speeds. Juubito uses his legs to push off the ground and doesn't even blow dust into the air : surpised Hiashi.
> And Naruto's sage powered shunshin displayed much terrain damage: Link removed


The arrow was passing through the canopy of thick forest,causing it to be wrenched from the air currents, and pressure from the arrow.

Obito was running on solid ground, and I'm pretty sure once you reach hypersonic speeds, you don't effect your environment as much.

Anyways projectile moving through air effecting nearby flora is completely different, than humanoid (who's has a much flatter and bigger surface area by the way) moving at hypersonic speeds on the ground.



> So unless you believe kidomaru's arrows are faster then God tier Naruto and juubidara then it's merely an exaggeration applied by Kishi and doesn't lead to diddly squat. Neji cannot react to even V2 Ay shunshin, yet when he moves he doesn't even kick up sand on contest to the arrow pushing away trees just from merely moving past them.


No you are using a ridculously laughable false equivocation fallacy to try and discredit Kidomaru;s speed.

Your argument is contingent upon equivocating the arrows effects on the forest and canopy to a humanoid moving through space on ground (in the presence of no flora, they were in a desert.). 

Not only this but you don't get to take things from the future to disprove things from the past (on a physical standpoint, not things like intent and circumstance). Even if Kishi didn't draw it with Obito in pt. 2 (assuming your argument wasn't ridiculously illogical) it doesn't mean it didn't happen in pt. 1. 



> No , my argument is that just because a projectile appears to moving fast to a Genin doesn't mean it has the ability to pressure the fucking Hokage. You aren't gonna sit here and tell me a Genin from the leaf can defeat Kidomaru buts it's Hokage isn't.


It's not his fucking eyes, though. It is the author portraying to the reader who is third person how the fast the arrow is. The effects the projectile had are objective regardless of who uses it, or who it used on. You are trying to use rank and level to discredit his fucking skill and feats. That's like me discrediting Sakura's strength feats, because Kishi doesn't use similar effects everytime Gai or Juubi Madara, or SM Naruto, etc throws a fucking punch. 

Or how about this one.
Genin 5th gate lee was creating sonic booms and visually affecting the air around him. Yet everytime we see Minato, Itachi, Ei, Pst Sasuke, Juubi, etc shushin WAY FASTER we don't get the same effects. Does that fucking mean Lee's feat is shit?

your answer to this determines if I give you any more of my time.

you are so bias your arguments don't even add up anymore. I'm not sure you even believe half of this.

Neji had the faculties to deal with that worse case scenario. Tsunade does not have byakugan, or chakra barrier. Given she doesn't know where he's at, can't locate him, and he can control his already fast as fuck arrows. I said Kimmo gives her a hard time, and put in Neji's position (after Kidomaru got space) this version of tsunade will have an extremely difficult time winning this fight.

Your argument amounts to "Tsunade is a sannin therefore she wins every scenario with anyone under her tier wise" . Which is BS because tiers don't determine individual matchups. In closing your arguments suck.



> If anything, your logic is far worse. Saying that because the arrow was terrain changing it has to have the speed to pressure a Sannin holds no merit at all . Facts are Nejis best reactions feats are reacting to Shouten Kisame to a degree. That doesn't stop him from getting blitzed by Tsuande. Bringing up shitttty part 1 feats is fruitless .


Not it isn't because it shows his reaction level even as a genin, and he grew in strength immensely since then. Meaning we can fucking scale him.



> The sound four ninja transformed into their cursed marked forms. They were clearly giving it their all and even commented saying they and it died in that moment of time. If two Jounins with low tier feats have the speed to keep up with 4 sound members and Neji was pressured by a single ninja then what credit does Neji receive from reacting to a single one when 2 basic Jounin could ?


Neji fucking raped Kidomaru up close. 

Kidomaru had skin akin to Gaara's sand skin, and survived the inital 64 palms. His web mobility allowed him to escape to the trees, and summon spiders/attack at range. Neji was in the worse possible scenario he could have been in, against the worst opponent and came out on top. 

I guarantee those Jounin would not have survived had Kidomaru been attacking from range. You are severly doubting the Sound 4 and CS in general.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 7, 2014)

> We already canonically know that Tsuande could one panel both this Jounin casually. There is no if ands or buts about it. Tsuande is simply tiers upon tiers above any part one kid and it's funny that you think otherwise when she was given the title of hokage essentially making her the strongest ninja in the leaf in part 1. But this said Hokage doesn't have the reactions to blitz a Genin?( considering you seem to be using his part 1 feats )


Because they aren't important and have no feats, yeah that's real cool. Powerscaling is what gives her the win along with more on panel feats. Means nothing because Tsunade can't blitz Elite Jonin (tier wise) or anyone who is remotely skilled in CqC.

She almost got blitzed by fucking Asura. 

Oh and yeah since were disregarding physics don't bring up that he was using rockets because it's irrelevant 



> Kidomaru doesn't even get in the position to fire off arrows considering at the start of the battle he gets outright blitzed off the planet.  Even if he did get in position his arrows wouldn't have the piercing ability to pierce Tsuande, Tsuande could dodge and react to the arrows at point blank, and Tsuande could simply move out if his AoE and find and kill him later. Simple as that. A chunnin isn't beating the Hokage.


-How does Tsunade react to the webs which Kabuto claimed steel can't cut?

-how does Tsuande deal with this? How does she close the distance? He can attack from multiple angles as well. 

also you are forgetting that Kidomaru was extremely analytical and won't fuck around and be stupid around Tsunade.



> So you are gonna sit her and assume her stamina, and chakra leaped tiers upon tiers but her reactions and taijustu skill stayed at the same level ?


What did she do that pits her reactions tiers above?

I gave you that Tsunade was rusty my point is that her speed wasn't enough to blitz or eve pressure Kabuto, and her reactions weren't effortless enough to not allow him to injure her. You love touting about DB stats, so does this mean pt. 1 neji gives Tsunade the same diff Kabuto did? (they both have 3.5)  and if so why wouldnt neji, who legitmately gained leaps and bounds in speed/reactions, as a jounin be able to deal with the slighlty better Tsunade?



> How get hell could you came down to that conclusion ? She's been walking around mentally traumatized , gambling, drinking excessively , and wasting her life away and you assume her taijustu skill and reactions stayed at the same level ?


-Jiraiya sought her out to be Hokage despite this, and she than became it. Her reactions/speed went up out of nowhere from getting hit by Kabuto thrice, to accepting the position and being elected? Think not.

Naruto was giving her strength as he reminded her of hope. Hence why the beat was so important, and why Tsunade herself felt the need to check up on him and his training multiple times. Without Naruto Tsunade would have given in to Oro.



> Just drinking alone dulls your resctions and she was a a complete alcoholic for 15+ Years. Even f she was training, drinking alone would still dull her reactions .


Tsunade showed she was still capable of fighting on par with Low Kage level people in pt. 1. She just doesn't have the feats you are bestowing her.

Also let me get this straight... We can't use scientific knowledge to deduce how fast an arrow was going drawn by the author, but yet were gonna sit here and scientifically present why Tsunade's alcohol problem (which overall is a fucking gimmick like her gambling problem, Oro's Paedophilia, or Jiraiya's perviness) are cumulative, and how they individually effect her combat skills?

Get the fuck out of here bro.




> Now add in that fact that she didn't train her CQC fighting in the least bit .


-Nothing suggest she lost speed or power signifigantly. Stamina I'll give you, but you don't lose reactions, and she was noticably out of shape,a nd speed is dependant on shushin and leg strength. Shushin itself is independant of the users physical body as it's a ninjutsu.

Speed is determined by the how hard you can push off the ground, and the rate at which it occurs. Seeing as she multi building busted with a no named kick, Im gonn guess her body speed wasn't that affected either.




> Atleast while she was an alcoholic and rusty she still practiced her chakra control by maintaining her youth, and we saw just by  training again that her chakra capacity, and chakra control could leap bounds. So training taijustu again after not doing so for 15 years.


Fighting is like riding a bike, especially when you are a master of fighting.

If tsunade was a master despite all that bs you're trying to feed me she would have washed him. Plain and simple. Kabuto appraoches Gai like that? He gets washed, he even ran from Kakashi in pt. 1.



> We even direct examples of her speed and strength increasing between the Sannin battle and the Madara battle( medium sized craters compared to busting Sussano and blitzing Oro compared to coordinating attacks with Ay and outspeeding the Gokage at times) so why her reactions not ? If anything her reactions would increase the most.


Didn't she bust Susano with her Seal activated? This feeds her much more power which she has stored over the years? also didn't she have help from 4 other kages?

Yeah thought so.

the fact that Tsunade could use her max Byakugou meant she was storing up chakra for years, and not going all out those times. Which is the reason for her performance raising slighlty while in the mode.





> You seem to not comprehend the difference between the Tsuande that fought Kabuto , the Tsunade that fought Oro , and the Tsuande that fought Madara.  Tsunade was tired, rusty , and slowed down by her phobia. That alone would probably make her half the speed of current Tsuande. + you still have failed to provide anything that puts Nejis above a ninja said to be equal to Kakashi.  Just because Neji seems to receive alot of hype doesn't mean he lives up to it. Feat wise he doesn't amount to much.


the only difference was Kabuto wasn't handicapped, and she didn't use Yin seal vs him. We are talking about Base tsunade prior to Kabuto cutting himself.



> Kabuto didn't have to lug Oro around at all are you kidding me? Oro on his own was running the fuck away. Then Kabuto specifically waited till Tsuande was tired( rusty, tired, phobia riddled, and disadvantaged)


-Yes he was, he specifically was holding him after she kicked the ground up until Kabuto took over the fight.

She got hit 3 times before the phobia came into play atop fucking bringing that up.



> Also prove how Neji > Kabuto in reactions?


This is the last thing I am addressing because I can't follow your post, and I have explained everything via cannon that needs to be known.

By strictly feats Neji was more impressive than pt. 1 Kabuto. Not only this but he also has the byakugan to aid this.

Kabuto only reactions feats based off of Tsunade powerscaling swhich in turn is based on powerscaling. Kabuto has reactions and speed similar to pt. 1 kakashi. His taijutsu however is self addimtedly ass ,as he is a medic.

Neji is a byakugan wielding, Hyuuga prodigy, who specializes in reactions, and fighting up close. Pt. 2 Neji is a Jonin who surpassed Hiashi one of the strongest people in Konoha (during the beginning of pt. 2, not now obviously).

Lee admitted inferiority to Neji despite having gates, and them having battle'd multiple times. By powerscaling Lee (who's reactions match his sixth gate speed, and was able to keep up with Minato, Gai, and Madara) to Neji it is clear no form of cannon Tsunade is blitzing Neji ever.

Also unlike Neji she wasn't taught by the best, which is a definant edge in mastering taijutsu.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 7, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> In this case, it would almost certainly have to blitz her if it was to make contact. Neji sits at a range and fires a blast of air at her, and if it hits her before she has time to react, it's a blitz. If it doesn't, it isn't. There's no grey area here, it's pretty black or white.​




Ahm, no. It doesn't. There were multiple times where the opponent has been hit without being blitzed. Tsunade can jump against Neji and he can counter her with Air palm. This is not a blitz, and it's a certain hit. Or dodging one of her punches and throwing her back.



> The databook claims a lot of attacks to be fast, many of which wouldn't hit Tsunade either - Gatsuuga, Tsubaki no Mai, Shikyaku no Jutsu etc. It may be fast, but so is Tsunade. Nothing suggests that it could hit her by merit of it's speed alone.



We have very different views on the speed of Tsunade it seems. Because in the speed department, i don't seer her bad, but i don't see why she is speedy. Even then it doesn't matter since the point here isn't Neji throwing air palms like crazy, but doing it necessarily to counter her. And she cannot dodge while she is attacking.



> Also, the attack being fast has absolutely nothing to do with it's predictability. We can see from Neji's usage of the technique that it _is_ predictable. He just thrusts his palm forward in a linear motion, so Tsunade should be able to tell when he's about to use it/using it, and move accordingly.



But she cannot hope to do that after Neji throws the thrust, because it's fast enough to travel pretty quick depending on the distance he uses it. If she jumps or moves before he throws the blast, he can notice and choose not do to it. Or wait until she is close to him and cannot dodge it, or, of course, in CqC when she manages to close the distance.

She can dodge it or not depending on the distance.



> That's hardly a very quantifiable speed feat though, is it? It shows that the technique is swift, but the databook already established that. Does it show that it could hit Tsunade before she could move out of the way? No.



Lee jumps and hit Kisame, Neji turns around and attacks, Kisame is sent flying before Lee, who is bound by physics, falls even a bit. This is a very good speed feat as it not only clashed with Kisame with Lee still in the air, but it sent him a good distance. 

It has enough speed to be so sure that Tsunade would not lol dodge the attack like child's play. Especially when i don't remember her dodging something of that speed.

Again, depending on the distance.




> When did Neji use a Hakke Koushou to repel the Juubi's arms?


​
You are right here. Neji didn't repelled the Juubi's arm. It was Hiashi. For some reason i thought it was Neji.

Even then, the notion of Neji being able to replicate what Hiashi did is backed up by the Databook III, that says Neji, by the time he became a Jounin, already surpassed all his clan.

I don't use DB much however, so it depends if you would follow that hype or not.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 7, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> It was directed at Dr. White, I never read your post.
> 
> Neji's Air Palm doesn't possess any feats that show it could blitz someone of Tsunade's level though. It may be an invisible blast of air, but once Tsunade has seen it once she'll know to jump as soon as Neji moves his arm for the technique. The movement for the Air Palm is really predictable, especially for someone whose trained herself in attack prediction. It did manage to hit 30% Kisame - who is an accomplished taijutsu fighter, but only because he was already pre-occupied in close quarters with Rock Lee, never mind the fact that he was in mid-air and couldn't dodge in the first place [1]
> 
> ...



It attacks the vital organs like Lee punching you in the kidneys.  It's a physical blast, unlike other jyuuken, which injects chakra.

But yes, it needed a set from Team Guy to land on Shoten Kisame, and when it landed, it pretty much didn't do anything to him but punch him.  Kisame himself isn't fast by any stretch, and shoten is 30% of that.  Neji's showings with it aren't very fantastic.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 8, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> POW I understand you are obligated via the Blondie Contract of Hyrule to defend your fellow bleach heads, I really do, but this post brought a tear to my eye (like the Natives).
> 
> 
> Lol, can Tsunade tango with Madara in CqC? No...



She fought 5 Madaras.  She fought regular Madara for hours.  Madaras who were serious enough to defeat 3 of the 5 kage.  



> I guarantee you Neji stands much better chance than Kabuto...



Substitute Kabuto or Neji into the Gokage situation.  Will either of them land the blow on Madara Tsunade given equal conditions, when multiple jounins stated beforehand that the level of the battle was so high they'd be completely useless?

After Madara states that adding one more ninja will mean absolutely nothing, this happens, and he eats his words.

But according to you, Neji with equal strength would have done a better job landing that final blow, because he's way faster.



> Show me Madara fighting Tsunadw 1 v 1 with killer intent, and I'll eat my words and praise Tsunade on high. Until I don't understand your point.



The other kage are done because I killed your medic.
this happens

WTF WTF
this happens

gtfo and die
this happens



> She had 4 other Kage level ninja with her, and Madara was just fucking around until he needed to peace.



If your dicking around mode is killing kage, then the level of output given is above that of the kage you are taking down.  Does that make sense?

One kage down after a long fight.
this happens

Two kage down after a long fight.
this happens

Three kage down after a long fight.
this happens

Onoki soloing.
this happens

Tsunade beating up Susano Madara's with taijutsu.
this happens

Notice he statement.  "There is nothing above this level."

Madara can be more serious, but in Tsunade's entire ninja career, from everything she saw and heard in the war arc.  This would logically include the gauntlet of Zetsu.



> POW you know I could never stay mad at you.








> False equation. If Tsunade was fighting for hours on hours against thousands of zetsu (which can pop up out of the earth and shit) I guarantee you more than 3 (very specific number here POW) could grab her and copy her chakra signature. You act like Neji came fresh out the shower to battle, and 2 Zetsu just ganged him.



Neji has byakugan.  Multidirectional attacks and ambushes from dudes trying to hug you in the back shouldn't matter to him.  It's not like we saw Hinata get grabbed, or show battle damage, or be too exhausted to use her byakugan later, and she was fighting right next to him the entire time.

Besides that, it is not a false equation.  Neji had to fight a gauntlet of Zetsus for hours, and was being pushed to his limits and losing.  Tsunade had to fight a gauntlet of Madara and Madaras for hours, and wasn't losing.  I don't believe there's any amount of Zetsu's you can throw in to a 3 hour survival mode that can equal the difficulty of 5 Susano Madara trying to cut you to ribbons.  

I also find it really hard to envision that Neji could last the amount of time any of the Gokage did against the Madaras in that situation, when he was struggling with master splinters.



> She almost got blitzed by fucking Asura.



You give Neji extenuating circumstances for Zetsu and water clones, but you don't give the same courtesy to Tsunade.  

She used up all of her chakra healing the entire vilage, and lost her princess dot of power.  She could barely stand when Asura came at her, but you're using that as a reflection of her actual power.  



> Kisame > Zabuza. Bjuu level chakra > Pt. 1 Jonin level chakra. Neji himself stated Kisame at 30% was comparable to pt. 2 Naruto....
> 
> The water jutsu caught the team of CqC oriented rookies off guard by swallowing their physical attacks into him. The fact he got out was more impressive.



Shoten Kisame was getting pressured by Base Lee and Tenten's shuriken.  He managed it pretty well, but he was like, "Aww snaps!"  *water dive*



> In Pt. 1 Kishi specifically stated Neji was a prodigy of the Hyuuga who passed most others. Hiashi was dumbfounded that Neji could learn Jyuuken's secret techniques simply by watching (having a secret sharingan).
> 
> Neji was promoted to Jonin, no one else  despite the smarts of Shikamaru, the raw power of Chouji, the Taijutsu/Gates of Lee, the medical knowledge/strength of Sakura, etc. Which means he must have really excelled to be elevated to a state Gai was (which Lee was not despite atleast having 5 gates on top of his pt. 2 reactions/speed).
> 
> Not only this, his Kaiten was exactly as big as Hiashi's and he was the only Hyuuga next to the clan leader.




Tsunade graduated the academy at 6, and when she was Neji's age, she was a commander in the war, along with Jiraiya and Orochimaru, and was earning the respect of high kage level opponents like Prime Hanzo.  But good for Neji.




> Taekwondo/Hapkido, because legs >. I had to stop because of financial reasons (broke college kid) but I was pretty good and wanna pick it up again.



That's cool.  Colleges usually have some martial arts programs or courses for relatively cheap, if you look.



> that isn't my argument though. My argument is that Neji excelled at one of the hardest Taijutsu's at age 13, something Hiashi was dumbfounded at. There is no reason for him to give brach house Neji that much credit.
> 
> Using Hinata here is irrelevant because her Taijutsu skill is <<< Lee's. So the style doesn't matter (also implying Lee's Goken isn't skillful isn't really accurate.). Also Tsunade doesn't have a discipline. She is more of a brawler, using what feels right to her, or what is available. She has 3 offensive moves all in all:
> -Punch
> ...



To say that the Senju clan doesn't have a proper and distinctive taijutsu style, or didn't pass it on to Tsunade when they were very much alive is questionable.  Her grandfather and great Uncle obvious had some moves if they were fighting with the refined Uchihas, who were stated to be above other ninja in every marker of a shinobi.  

To say that Tsunade is just a brawler is also shortchanging her, and ignoring a key sequence that was included specifically to show her skill.

this happens
this happens
this happens
this happens

First off, none of this happens by Tsunade pushing her superior speed, because she doesn't move from her spot.  

This isn't random brawling, because she ducks under Naruto's attack, pokes her finger through the hole in the kunai and jabs him arm to release the grip, and disarm him, holds the kunai in an intricate finger pattern, and then uses the same motion to flick off Naruto's head band to remove his metal plate, while releasing the kunai into the air.  

After that she flicks him in the spot she stripped of armor, and sends him the exact distance needed so that the falling kunai will come down right in front of his face.

With one finger.  That's not brawling.  Naruto brawls.  Naruto couldn't do that.  Defending, disarming, countering, and finishing is the textbook procedure for dealing with weapons.  If Kishi wanted to just show that she was a strong brawler, she would have poked or punched him when he ran in.  If he wanted to show that she was way faster because she's a sannin, he probably would have pulled the Kakashi, and had her appear behind him with his kunai pointed to his head.  But instead, fancy one finger taijutsu.  

You should read Suu's primer.  It's good stuff.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 8, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> She fought 5 Madaras.  She fought regular Madara for hours.  Madaras who were serious enough to defeat 3 of the 5 kage.


-Tis a good feat but not essentially one of CqC prowess. Gaara and Mei were also fighting them for sometime both not being taijutsu users. Tsunade was using Byakugan anyway which boost her stats but makes her sloppy like Ei claimed.

-Madara was using techniques that could K.O them the whole time. He was testing their metal, and toying with them. Tsunade with Byakugou should easily survive longer than them given byakugou, and better CqC prowess than everyone bar.




> Substitute Kabuto or Neji into the Gokage situation.  Will either of them land the blow on Madara Tsunade given equal conditions, when multiple jounins stated beforehand that the level of the battle was so high they'd be completely useless?


Neji is > Hiashi. Hiashi has been portrayed as an elite Jonin, who at close range can essentially be placed at low kage. The Hyuuga jutsu was able to blow back juubi hands when used by the two strongest in the clan. If Mei could survive whilst tired as fuck against 5 of them at close range, then Yes Neji would do better than her but ultimately get defeated because it is Madara.

If you are talking about overall, then once again yes, because there were many combo hits on Madara which only took 3 or less Kage's. He was never going 100% lol

After Madara states that adding one more ninja will mean absolutely nothing, this happens, and he eats his words.



> But according to you, Neji with equal strength would have done a better job landing that final blow, because he's way faster.


I never claimed Neji was way faster. It was the Tsunade fans that claimed Base tsunade could easily blitz and one shot Neji that I am arguing aganist. Neji should be Hebi Sauce(no CS) level speed/reaction wise, Tsunade is <= to him in speed in my eyes. So Tsunade and Neji should be around the same level.

Neji has more skill in Taijutsu is my point (than base Tsunade, which is nullified by essentially being able to make mistakes and heal from them, as your example showed when she gets bisected after landing that hit) with a better way of reacting to Shinobi as well. 




> The other kage are done because I killed your medic.
> this happens
> 
> WTF WTF
> ...



All of these examples are Byakugo Tsunade. The one withmassive amounts of chakra boosting her stamina, and stats. I am not argue as to why she pulverizes Neji. I am arguing specifically against Base Tsunade, none of which he feats suggest she can take down Neji more often than not (the fight would be high - extreme diff)



> Neji has byakugan.  Multidirectional attacks and ambushes from dudes trying to hug you in the back shouldn't matter to him.  It's not like we saw Hinata get grabbed, or show battle damage, or be too exhausted to use her byakugan later, and she was fighting right next to him the entire time.


It does when you are exhausting your chakra, and slowly getting it sucked from you. Neji was fighting so hard his sight degraded to not being able to tell Kiba and Akamaru apart. When being overwhelmed by multiple targets over a long period of time multi directional sight's effectiveness lessens. Byakugan isn't perfect, and it doesn't mean you can dodge everything, but it no doubt increases your reaction ability a great deal.



> Besides that, it is not a false equation.  Neji had to fight a gauntlet of Zetsus for hours, and was being pushed to his limits and losing.  Tsunade had to fight a gauntlet of Madara and Madaras for hours, and wasn't losing.  I don't believe there's any amount of Zetsu's you can throw in to a 3 hour survival mode that can equal the difficulty of 5 Susano Madara trying to cut you to ribbons.


-The situations were different. They were WAY MORE zetsu's than Madara's per soldier to kage respectively. 
-Zetsu are way more covert and can use earth meld and shit to sneak attack people.
-Not only this how the hell did Neji lose?  I guarantee you he killed dozens before that one got a touch on him, and he immediately reacted by killing him too... POW  
-Zetsu can steal chakra from people.

Not only this but we have no indication to how long the kages were fighting and there is no evidence that it was "hours" unlike the war time which we can go back and trace.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 8, 2014)

> I also find it really hard to envision that Neji could last the amount of time any of the Gokage did against the Madaras in that situation, when he was struggling with master splinters.


Put Tsunade in Neji's position on the front and your telling me at no time does a zetsu even touch her? 

Base Tsunade did jackshit against Madara, and was useful for like healing and shit. It wasn't until she pulled out her Bya that she was relevant from a combat standpoint.

What you're doing right now is essentially giving Base Naruto the feats of SM Naruto and arguing from there. Neji rapes Naruto in Taijutsu in base(the fight would be close not the taijutsu portion though), but SM Naruto rapes Neji so hard, this is my standpoint.

All of the tsunade arguments you guys are using amount to severly downplaying Neji, and using tier argument with a form of tsunade I'm not even arguing against.





> You give Neji extenuating circumstances for Zetsu and water clones, but you don't give the same courtesy to Tsunade.
> 
> She used up all of her chakra healing the entire vilage, and lost her princess dot of power.  She could barely stand when Asura came at her, but you're using that as a reflection of her actual power.


Her war feats shit on her Pein arc feats, and that latter is when she had more chakra. Base Tsunade could do nothing but stare as Asura path rocketed towards here, she couldn't even attempt a dodge. That is my point, not that she undoubtedly would have been hit.

Once again Neji beat the Kisame clones, and that one zetsu without help, and tsunade in base was a literal ant to Madara with 4 kage backup and needed her best form to ultimately once again get her ass beat.

I never even gave Neji leeway I conceded he got caught by Kisame and zetsu, but you are twisting the scenes. If 1 zetsu was put in a room with Neji, it get raped no problem.

Also if I am not mistaken isn't the only reason Neji got caught because he was too busy looking at Hinata about to get murked? If so I'm gonna be reallly reallly, really, disappointed in you.




> Tsunade graduated the academy at 6, and when she was Neji's age, she was a commander in the war, along with Jiraiya and Orochimaru, and was earning the respect of high kage level opponents like Prime Hanzo.  But good for Neji.


When was it stated that they were Sannin at 13? I'm pretty sure they were like post skip Naruto age. Also she once again was used for her strength and regen. 





> To say that the Senju clan doesn't have a proper and distinctive taijutsu style, or didn't pass it on to Tsunade when they were very much alive is questionable.  Her grandfather and great Uncle obvious had some moves if they were fighting with the refined Uchihas, who were stated to be above other ninja in every marker of a shinobi.


You have no evidence to make a positive claim that they do, I never claimed they didn't. But manga facts indicate Tsunade as a brawler with no former style.



> To say that Tsunade is just a brawler is also shortchanging her, and ignoring a key sequence that was included specifically to show her skill.
> 
> this happens
> this happens
> ...


All that required was speed, reactions, and dexterity above Pre skip Naruto level. Not that impressive when pre skip Kabuto was hurting her in combat a chapter or two later.

None of that indicates any skill in a formal martial art. that's like witnessing some street thug do a bunch of parkour and acrobatics after he beats some guy up, and claiming "Wow he must be 5th dan Black belt or some shit" They don't even correlate. 



> This isn't random brawling, because she ducks under Naruto's attack, pokes her finger through the hole in the kunai and jabs him arm to release the grip, and disarm him, holds the kunai in an intricate finger pattern, and then uses the same motion to flick off Naruto's head band to remove his metal plate, while releasing the kunai into the air.


Every academy student is shown the basics of nin, tai, and genjutsu. Furthermore every ninja should have novice skill at least in weapons and such. I can go up to my little cousin right now, and pull similar IRL shit against him and look like Bruce Lee. All it was is just a show of superiority in the aforementioned categories > Naruto.



> After that she flicks him in the spot she stripped of armor, and sends him the exact distance needed so that the falling kunai will come down right in front of his face.


Not claiming she isn't skilled. My claim is she isn't trained in a formal style. You Tsunade fans really needs to stick to my claims, and not those made by Tsunade haters.



> With one finger.  That's not brawling.  Naruto brawls.  Naruto couldn't do that.  Defending, disarming, countering, and finishing is the textbook procedure for dealing with weapons.


Brawling doesn't mean you aren't graceful. It just means you don't have set fighting style and go instead of a natural style of fighting. What is the difference between a Tsunade punch and a Naruto punch? Strength. That's it. They both use generic punches and kick and let their stats do the talking.




> If Kishi wanted to just show that she was a strong brawler, she would have poked or punched him when he ran in.  If he wanted to show that she was way faster because she's a sannin, he probably would have pulled the Kakashi, and had her appear behind him with his kunai pointed to his head.  But instead, fancy one finger taijutsu.


Once again it was to show she literally only needed one finger t beat Naruto, and they did highlight her strength in that fight. He later highlighted her being a brawler by having her destroy a town chasing Orochimaru, and likewise trying to squash Kabuto, the latter of which was making her look bad gracewise, who self admittedly suck at the stuff.



> You should read Suu's primer.  It's good stuff.



I actually like Tsunade but I just don't agree that she is anything more than Mid Kage level, and isn't fast or skilled enough to blitz and one shot Neji in base lol.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 9, 2014)

Byako boosts your stats?


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## OG Appachai (Jul 9, 2014)

no one is doubting her resiliency, thats  good for her. Fact of the matter is that she would die if she doesnt heal from those injuries.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 9, 2014)

People are definitely doubting her resiliency. I've just read through at least two pages of crap suggesting she needs Byakugou to _tank_ hits in the first place, even before she regenerates. In reality her resiliency is completely unrelated to Byakugou. 

Also, whenever she can survive after being split in half with her guts spilled over a tree, for what seemed like _several hours_, I find the notion of Neji's baby pokes killing her hilarious.​​


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## OG Appachai (Jul 9, 2014)

i dont recall where it was stated or implied it was "hours" but either way she was incapacitated, not saying that neji can cut her in half though. And the point of jyuken is for it to be gentle so saying "baby pokes" isnt really an insult. Despite the softness of the way its applied externally it still does its dirty work on the insides by destrying organ function


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Byako boosts your stats?



Anytime an excess of chakra is added to someone they automatically get boosted. Byakugou doesn't just heal it gives the user ridiculous amounts of stored chakra, hence why Tsuande and Sakura could summon 10% katsuya, and Sakura's strength increased. 

@ Godaime
Tanking = being hit and being able to go on. Without Yin seal she wouldn't have been able to keep fighting.

Like I said resilience only goes as far as the body can keep functioning. I don't care if Tsunade can stay alive while bisected, because she can't fucking fight anymore, and is an easy target/ incapcitated.

Et la Fin.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Anytime an excess of chakra is added to someone they automatically get boosted. Byakugou doesn't just heal it gives the user ridiculous amounts of stored chakra, hence why Tsuande and Sakura could summon 10% katsuya, and Sakura's strength increased.



They get boosted chakra reserves, and that is literally it. Sakura's strength is not increased by virtue of Byakugou, because the one time she used her enhanced strength it wasn't even active. Moreover, there is no evidence to even suggest that it increases the striking power behind her/Tsunade's strikes either. 



> @ Godaime
> Tanking = being hit and being able to go on. Without Yin seal she wouldn't have been able to keep fighting.



Which is funny, because in every single scan I just posted (which was apparently a waste of time) that is _exactly_ what Tsunade is doing. She doesn't need her seal to survive in the short term, she is evidently capable of surviving even with horrible injuries, without her regeneration. She would die _eventually_ sure, but it would take hours of bleeding out and organ failure for that to happen.



> Like I said resilience only goes as far as the body can keep functioning. I don't care if Tsunade can stay alive while bisected, because she can't fucking fight anymore, and is an easy target/ incapcitated.



Then you're blindly ignorant, and clearly have no concept of what the word resilient means. The reason Tsunade couldn't fight anymore is because she didn't have any fucking legs, in case you didn't notice. The fact that she was still alive, talking and using chakra, shows that she is _obviously_ incredibly resilient. 

She was still using chakra for summoning a _boss summon_, and using healing techniques on four critically wounded Kage simultaneously, both of which apparently require more effort than throwing strikes do.

A ninja who lacked resilience could never have replicated that (hence why the other Kage were all downed, while she remained conscious).



> Et la Fin.



Indeed.​​


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> They get boosted chakra reserves, and that is literally it. Sakura's strength is not increased by virtue of Byakugou, because the one time she used her enhanced strength it wasn't even active. Moreover, there is no evidence to even suggest that it increases the striking power behind her/Tsunade's strikes either.​




And boosted chakra reserves increase stats.

This was the same argument you used to claim Kabuto got is stat boosted. This is the reason KN Naruto is >>> Naruto is speed and reactions. 

Sakura was fodder in the war until she activated byakugou and sent a Jubi clone flying and almost cause a mini earthquake. It was clear Byakugou was the reason for her new found strength feat.

Tsunade and Sakura (tsunade is naturally strong but she still uses this technique) use their strength by concentrating a shit ton of chakra in a perfect point via chakra control and release it at contact. Byakugou increases their chakra reserves immensely allowing for faster movements, and more strength.





> Which is funny, because in every single scan I just posted (which was apparently a waste of time) that is _exactly_ what Tsunade is doing. She doesn't need her seal to survive in the short term, she is evidently capable of surviving even with horrible injuries, without her regeneration. She would die _eventually_ sure, but it would take hours of bleeding out and organ failure for that to happen.



Surviving doesn't = Tanking. Kirin destroyed Susano but Itachi survived. Susano didn't tank it. Tsuande could talk and survive, sure, but fight and be able to defend herself from subsequent damage? Nope.

There is no evidence to suggest this and the manga points to the exact opposite thing. She was clearly mortally wounded hence why she pulled out her yin seal, if she could do the same thing she was doing whil ehealed in base and wounded without regeneration she would have socked Oro the first time he stabbed her. She instead went to keep getting slashed and remain motionless, only to attack once yin seal activated.




> Then you're blindly ignorant, and clearly have no concept of what the word resilient means. The reason Tsunade couldn't fight anymore is because she didn't have any fucking legs, in case you didn't notice. The fact that she was still alive, talking and using chakra, shows that she is _obviously_ incredibly resilient.


You are the igorant one. I clearly stated the latter portion of your argument, which doesn't matter if she can't fight.

She needed byakugou to escape Madara's Susano sword and injure Susano

She needed Yin seal to survive Oro's assault, all of this shit is clearly evidenced in the manga. 



> She was still using chakra for summoning a _boss summon_, and using healing techniques on four critically wounded Kage simultaneously, both of which apparently require more effort than throwing strikes do.


She summoned Katsuya (who was doing the healing) and concentrating on stayng alive to keep the bound there. 

My point is if she is mortally wounded without Yin Seal or Byakugou she won't be able to keep fighting. Everytime this happens she is completely immobile and hurt until she heals and or activates a mode. She only does this because the opponent thinks she is dead. In base she doesn't have this leisure and can only use mystic palm to heal which requires space and time, and isn't nearly as effective.



> A ninja who lacked that resilience could never have replicated that (hence why the other Kage were all downed, while she remained conscious).


For the last time Godaime, I am not arguing against her resiliency, I have claimed several times in this thread the exact opposite. My point is resilience only goes as far as bodily constitution allows. Without Yin seal, or Byakugou she can only do so much after being so injured especially if her opponent isn't letting up.

She can bee the most resilient, but if she can't heal parts of her body needed to fight she becomes ineffective and subsequently dead.​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> And boosted chakra reserves increase stats.
> 
> This was the same argument you used to claim Kabuto got is stat boosted. This is the reason KN Naruto is >>> Naruto is speed and reactions.



No it wasn't .

The reason Kabuto could get a speed boost wasn't solely the fact that he got a chakra boost, but rather the method in which he was applying that chakra. According to Asuma, the chakra that the soldier pills gave to Kiba allowed him to release that chakra and attack ' like a wild beast '. Releasing chakra from your body momentarily can give you a speed burst [1], which is why he saw a speed increase. Kabuto more than likely did the same thing. It was the application of the increased chakra that gave him the boost, not the increased chakra itself.

Bijuu cloaks are unlike normal chakra, and they actually do give stat boosts. They are not comparable.



> Sakura was fodder in the war until she activated byakugou and sent a Jubi clone flying and almost cause a mini earthquake. It was clear Byakugou was the reason for her new found strength feat.



Wrong again. Sakura had been storing up chakra in her seal for three years, which limited the chakra and the chakra control she could exert behind her punches. The minute she stops storing chakra in her seal, is the minute the strength behind her punches increase tenfold. It had nothing to do with her Byakugou technique, which wasn't even released when she used said punches. 



> Tsunade and Sakura (tsunade is naturally strong but she still uses this technique) use their strength by concentrating a shit ton of chakra in a perfect point via chakra control and release it at contact. Byakugou increases their chakra reserves immensely allowing for faster movements, and more strength.



I'd implore you to prove that with manga evidence. Their super strength is to do with chakra _control_, not chakra _quantity_. The more precise their chakra is, the greater the strike. Increasing their chakra reserves doesn't increase the power of the strike, it just allows them to use more strikes of the same power without them exhausting themselves.




> There is no evidence to suggest this and the manga points to the exact opposite thing. She was clearly mortally wounded hence why she pulled out her yin seal, if she could do the same thing she was doing whil ehealed in base and wounded without regeneration she would have socked Oro the first time he stabbed her. She instead went to keep getting slashed and remain motionless, only to attack once yin seal activated.



I just provided a fuck ton of evidence to not just suggest it, but canonly prove it. In the example of Orochimaru, he stabs her through the heart and slashes her chest with his sword, and then when he goes to kill Naruto she reacts to his attack and jumps in front of the attack, getting slashed on the back. Then, even before regenerating, she jumps up off the ground and smacks him in the face. What part of that suggests she needed her regeneration to _tank the hit_? She only needed it to recover the damage.

The same can be said with the instance I provided with Kabuto, she gets hit in the intercostal muscles and can't breathe, but stands up, goes behind him, smacks him and runs some distance before he knew she had even moved. That was _before_ she healed herself.

Then again when she's going to fight Madara. She gets her body torn to shit by Mabui's Lightning Transfer technique, and even before having activated her regeneration she kicks Madara and sends him flying. She didn't need regeneration to _fight through the damage_, she just needed it to recover the damage afterwards.

This isn't rocket science.




> She needed byakugou to *recover from* Madara's Susano sword and injure Susano





> She needed Yin seal to *recover from* Oro's assault, all of this shit is clearly evidenced in the manga.



I fixed these examples for you.



> She summoned Katsuya (who was doing the healing) and concentrating on stayng alive to keep the bound there.



Katsuyu was using Tsunade's chakra 



> My point is if she is mortally wounded without Yin Seal or Byakugou she won't be able to keep fighting. Everytime this happens she is completely immobile and hurt until she heals and or activates a mode.



This has literally never happened, ever. The only time this has happened she didn't have legs and physically couldn't move. Any other time she has actively moved around and thrown strikes despite her injuries. I have no idea where you got this from. 



> For the last time Godaime, *I am not arguing against her resiliency*, I have claimed several times in this thread the exact opposite. *My point is resileince only goes as far as boidly constituion allows*. Without Yin seal, or Byakugou she can only do so much after being so injured especially if her opponent isn't letting up.



This seems really contradictory. You're saying you're not arguing against her resiliency, but yet you're saying she's not resilient enough to take Neji's strikes and keep fighting without Byakugou? That seems like you're contesting her resiliency to me. She has taken attacks that inflict far greater damage than Neji's pokes inflict, and continued to fight and/or throw attacks, without Byakugou. That is all there is to it.



> She can bee the most resilient, but if she can't heal parts of her body needed to fight she becomes ineffective and subsequently dead.



The only parts of her body she needs to wreck Neji are her arms, legs and her head. Unless Neji can rip all of those off, he's dying a horrible death.​​


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> > The reason Kabuto could get a speed boost wasn't solely the fact that he got a chakra boost, but rather the method in which he was applying that chakra. According to Asuma, the chakra that the soldier pills gave to Kiba allowed him to release that chakra and attack ' like a wild beast '. Releasing chakra from your body momentarily can give you a speed burst [1], which is why he saw a speed increase. Kabuto more than likely did the same thing. It was the application of the increased chakra that gave him the boost, not the increased chakra itself.
> 
> 
> The example you are using his fucking shushin lol.
> ...


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> The example you are using his fucking shushin lol.
> 
> More chakra = faster shushin. Shushin is usually how Shinobi move.



No it isn't. A shunshin is a ninjutsu, and usually involves a shinobi disappearing and re-appearing in a high speed movement. What I'm describing is just an application of precise chakra control. 



> Chakra pill works by boosting up enyzmes and allowing you to use more chakra than you normally would resulting in more stamina, strength, etc.



It doesn't give the user more strength.



> Yin Seal and Byakugou work by releasing stored chakra. Similar to how  chakra pill releases the potential to use the "wild beast" chakra.



Yes, so if Tsunade/Sakura wanted, they could use the chakra from their seals precisely to move in quick bursts of speed, but doesn't mean the chakra itself is magically allowing them to move faster. They have to actually use their own skill to do that. 



> All of this is to use Byakugou which is a higher form. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If she doesn't sacrifice chakra she can hit a little harder, but her seal is constantly taking huge amounts. It's like a saving account, a little goes in at a time which pays off by being able to use the tech.



I'm just incredibly confused at what you're even arguing at this point. It sounds like you're agreeing with me, that she was in fact constantly storing chakra up, and thus the strength behind her punches suffered as a result. However previously you were arguing that she needed Byakugou to punch hard in the first place: 

_" It was clear Byakugou was the reason for her new found strength feat. "_

She didn't have Byakugou activated though, she was in base.  So . . I don't really know what you're arguing.



> Either way her base form doesn't get byakugou feats because she has so much less chakra in that form.



Except that her Byakugou feats are unrelated to her base feats. Resilience has nothing to do with Byakugou. 



> This is how the fucking jutsu works   I specifically stated it was partly chakra control.
> 
> The jutsu works by gathering chakra from all over your body to a point much smaller than the chakra usually contained there. The excess amount of chakra is perfectly controlled to be released at a smaller point (the fist the foot, etc) which allows for a ridiculous amounts of damage to be done.
> 
> Seeing as Byakugou ridculously increases the amount of chakrausualy being stored in the body it is fucking obvious this increases their strength



Yes, you did state it was partly control, but you also stated that it was to do with chakra quantity - which is specifically what I was asking you to prove. It has never been said that focusing _more chakra_ to a specific point would increase the power behind the strike, it has always been said that precise chakra control is what merited that. 



> You aren't getting the obvious point. She cannot fucking fight in that condition. Intercepting another attack is different than shrugging the hit off and continuing to fight.





She canonly _has_ fought in those conditions. She was moving around, hitting and blocking Orochimaru's strikes while in those conditions. I've provided numerous other examples of this. She may have regenerated afterwards, but that was because she _could_, not because if she couldn't she would die (which obviously isn't the case since she survived being cut in half for several hours without healing herself).



> If you don't have bicep muscles you can't punch
> 
> If you don't have calvs you can't run
> 
> ...



Tsunade's spine was _severed_ and she wasn't paralysed, Tsunade's heart was _pierced_ and her body didn't shut down, Tsunade's intestines and blood was spilled over a tree for several hours and she didn't die. Do you not realise that Tsunade can live through these things and fight the pain?

Yes, _yet again_, if she went for incredibly long periods of time without regenerating or using Byakugou, she would die - she isn't immortal. However in a battle situation these types of injuries aren't killing her or prohibiting her from continuing to throw strikes (lest her limbs are cut off). 



> I'm really not going to endeavor this bullshit any longer



You go girl.



> Do you know fucking IRL humans can survive tedious amounts of time while bisected? Now if Mike tyson is the one who bisected him and wants to kill him your telling me that humans resilience can pull them through to even put up a fight let alone win the damn match?



A better question, is why the fuck are you comparing IRL humans to fictional superhuman ninjas? No human could ever survive getting split in half, and keep themselves alive for what seemed like hours, whilst not even seeming to care about the pain. Without any medical treatment an average human wouldn't last even nearly as long, and would probably just pass out from the pain. 



> Because that wound wasn't enough to instantly put her down. People can move after being shot, stabbed mangled, etc. It's called adrenaline, and our bodies usually don't die immediately. Regardless if she didnt fucking heal herself she would have been fucked. If she can't make space to heal she eventually dies, and if she gets to injured her mystical palm isn't enough.



If you actually believe that a normal person could move around that quickly after taking a blow like that to the chest, then I'm probably wasting my time with this part of the argument. No, a normal person wouldn't die instantly, but they couldn't get up and retaliate so quickly afterwards, especially not moments after their leg and arm muscles had been hit with the same scalpel.



> Tsunade had the seal on before she went.



_Wrong_.



> She was already mid transfer hence the reason she blitzed MAdara in the first place. Nothing indicates she used the seal after landing. Also seeing as he body wasn't completely mangled upon arrival it can be deduced the transfer didn't maim her in any way.



Regeneration forcibly ages her and shortens her lifespan. It isn't a technique she uses on a whim. For her to have pulled out Sozou Saisei she clearly had sustained grievous injuries. Furthermore, you're only fooling yourself if you believe she didn't receive steep injuries from being thrown inside a lightning bolt - which moves somewhere around 3,700 mps. Mabui herself states that no one but the Raikage can go through the technique without being ripped to shreds, even if it wasn't an insta-KO technique, denying that the damage it inflicted was anything short of critical is foolish.




> If she was going to survive why did she heal?



Because she could. If you could survive a critical hit for several hours, but endure gruelling pain during that time, why _wouldn't_ you heal yourself knowing that you could?



> Without healing she dies there, there is no fucking arguing this. I am seriously about to leave discussion with you if you are trying to argue base Tsunade living through MAdara biseting her, or even fighting after that without byakugou.



Anyone who has read the manga knows that Tsunade has done both of these things in the manga, and you are the only person I have ever encountered to have not realised this. Leave the argument, by all means.




> To keep the contract bound so she wouldn't go away. *Katsuya has more than enough* chakra and *healing prowess on her own*.



Prove it. The only time Katsuyu has ever mass healed, she's used Tsunade and/or Sakura's chakra [1] [2] 



> Where did she remained greviously injured and move for an extended amount of time? Everytime she needs to heal to continue on fighting.



Whenever two swords bisected her and she was jumping around striking Madara's Susano'o clones, perhaps? Byakugou was activated, but had not yet began healing her because the swords hadn't been removed. Not that it matters, her ability to survive so long without any legs, without using Byakugou, is canon evidence that she can survive that level of injury for significant periods of time and still use jutsu/fight.




> Mystic palm has no feats for being able to restore multiple organs fro shutting down. Tsuande in base only has mystic palm. Neji is going to be striking her alot and taking away her ability to use strength and healing. Without healing she dies. Point blank. High diff fight though.



Except that he isn't going to be striking her much at all because she's better than him at taijutsu. Though you can go ahead and read my post that you never replied to, if you want to discuss that. 



> and when her heart shuts down along with her liver and kidneys not only will her brain start going but she'll start poisoning herself with her own fluids. Without regen she can't do anything.



Survived with a severed spine, survived with a pierced heart, survived most of the organs and bones in her abdomen being ripped with Madara's Susano'o sword, but sure, Neji's strikes are going to put her down...

I'm beginning to feel like a broken record, Dr. White.​​


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## Dr. White (Jul 9, 2014)

We are never going to agree to this. Not you or LikeBOSS, but probably Pirateonwheels because it's my pet. I have posted so much on this already and we are just going back and forth, and it's getting hard and loltime consuming to keep responding pages on pages with 3 people. 

At the end of the day I believe Neji would beat base Tsunade high - extreme diff.


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## Jad (Jul 9, 2014)

I don't see why Neji can't seal most of her major points to the point her strength doesn't mean much if getting hit. In a Base Tsunade vs. Neji match that is.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Anytime an excess of chakra is added to someone they automatically get boosted. Byakugou doesn't just heal it gives the user ridiculous amounts of stored chakra, hence why Tsuande and Sakura could summon 10% katsuya, and Sakura's strength increased.



Anytime an excess of chakra is added to someone they automatically get boosted. Byakugou doesn't just heal it gives the user ridiculous amounts of stored chakra, hence why Tsuande and Sakura could summon 10% katsuya, and Sakura's strength increased. 

Even assuming that's true, which I don't think it is, Tsunade always has access to that chakra though.  It's in her forehead diamond, and she can use it for whatever she wants and to whoever she wants, and not just to power auto-healing.  Hence how in the last chapter, Sakura said she would give Obito chakra to power his kamui.  Tsunade also uses it to auto-run her youth program, and you haven't said we'd be seeing an old Tsunade here.

However we've only seen chakra of a different quality boost characters.  Sage chakra enhances, kyuubi and tailed beast chakra enhances, Orochimaru's snake sage chakra and cursed seal chakra enhances abilities, because those are traits of that specific type of chakra.  Karen's chakra shows us this, as her chakra's special quality is healing and restoring.  So you bite Karen, get tons of chakra, and heal, but don't get any of your physical abilities boosted despite being flooded with a ton of Uzumaki chakra.  Hashirama's cells also give you tons of vitality and stamina, because he's kind of sagey and special as well, but it doesn't boost speed or power, just stamina and endurance.  Genin Naruto also has many times the base chakra than Kakashi, but it didn't give him exceptional physical boosts either.  Raw chakra just doesn't have these traits, but, if you insist it does, then I should point out that Tsunade has a make up of Uzumaki and Hashirama Senju chakra as well as her basic make up.  Unless you have reason to believe that the chakra becomes different once it's placed into byako, and I haven't really seen any reason to believe that.

Sakura's punching power increased when she completed byako, true, but her statements lead me to believe that's because she was no longer focusing most of her chakra and energy on forming the forehead gem.  That freed up a lot of her energy, and let her put real power into her punch.  The sort of ability boost you get when you're no longer multi-tasking.  She also wasn't covered in tattoos at the time to signify the byako healing jutsu was active, so it would be much in the state Tsunade would have it in this match, and in the state she had it in during her fight with Kabuto.  Even if she was tapping byako, her strength is the result of a jutsu that releases chakra out of her fist, and not natural super strength.  (which Tsunade also has)

Summoning more of Katsuya is also just an example of having more chakra to put into a jutsu that scales with chakra amount, but doesn't really show an increase to base stats.  If you want to believe that it's just her byako that grants her any physical ability beyond what she displayed against Kabuto, that's fine.  But there are a lot of statements about her physical condition and lack of practice inhibiting her abilities, as well as Kabuto's plan to tire her out before attempting to engage her for me to believe that she's exactly the same, but with more chakra against Madara.  Even her standing around and reacting to the battle jonin's couldn't keep track of leads me to believe that the Tsunade, or any of the Sannin who fought at the Sannin Battlefield, would quickly find themselves casualties in the Madara battle.


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