# Gaiden Kakashi vs Chuunin Exam Sasuke



## Invictus-Kun (Jan 1, 2015)

Location: Konoha Chuunin Exam Arena
Distance: 31 Meters
Restrictions: None
Intel: No intel for Both
Mindset: IC

Discuss, Defend, Defy, Decide.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 1, 2015)

Does Kakashi have Sharingan or not?


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 1, 2015)

Kakashi beats him mid diff with the sharingan, 
not sure about without the sharingan since the affects of CS1 also come into play


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 1, 2015)

Kakashi soloes.


----------



## trance (Jan 1, 2015)

Questions...

1. Does Sauce have "Chidori"?
2. Does Kakashi have his Sharingan?


----------



## Mercurial (Jan 1, 2015)

Before Sharingan-Kakashi already blitzes him. Sasuke was said to be at chunin level without showing CS1, so at best with CS1 he can be a strong chunin level at that time. Kid Kakashi was chunin level from at the very least five years, and at that time was a jonin who was effectively fighting other jonin, experienced and strong jonin from other nations. Give Kakashi the Sharingan too and he blitzes even worse.


----------



## Ghost (Jan 1, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Before Sharingan-Kakashi already blitzes him.


lol no.



> Kid Kakashi was chunin level from at the very least five years, and at that time was a jonin who was effectively fighting other jonin, experienced and strong jonin from other nations.


Except that we saw Kakashi participating the Chuunin Exams with his friends when he was much older than 5 or 6. 

Kakashi only got promoted to Jounin because of the war and was completely outclassed by the Iwa Jounin before he got Obito's Sharingan.


> Give Kakashi the Sharingan too and he blitzes even worse.



That's not how Sharingan even works.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 1, 2015)

Kakashi wins this.

No part 1 K11 was in the level of a Jounin. Probably not even near.


----------



## Ghost (Jan 1, 2015)

Naruto, Sasuke, Lee and Gaara at the end of part 1 are all massively stronger than gaiden Kakashi.


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 1, 2015)

Trance said:


> Questions...
> 
> 1. Does Sauce have "Chidori"?
> 2. Does Kakashi have his Sharingan?



This. We're lacking in information after all


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 1, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> lol no.
> 
> 
> Except that we saw Kakashi participating the Chuunin Exams with his friends when he was much older than 5 or 6.



Because he had a sign of how old he was huh . Kakashi even gives us the exact age, 6 years younger than Naruto. Naruto was 12-13 throughout part 1. So yes 6-7 years old was the age of Kakashi at the time he become chunnin.



> Kakashi only got promoted to Jounin because of the war and was completely outclassed by the Iwa Jounin before he got Obito's Sharingan.



This is fucking stupid and you should feel bad. Might GODDAMN DAI was in that war with the 8th gates mastered and he was still a genin. Just because Itachi got promoted because of bullshit (his mom even told Sasuke he was promoted because "it was a different time" and you're using that to do it to Kakashi)doesn't mean everyone was. Kakashi was jounnin level. He learned rasengan, created chidori, was a sensor, tracking nin, very fast, and had good taijutsu.

About being outclassed by the Iwa Jounin, you just conveniently forgot about Kakashi mowing through 17 kage bunshin. He landed one hit on Kakashi, that's not outclassed. Hell, they can't even sneak up on him without him noticing. Don't forget Kakashi had an extended taijutsu exchange and didn't even get a scratch. Don't forget that in that taijutsu exchange Kakashi wasn't 100%, he was suffering after that from the damage he took in their first fight. He didn't outclass shit. Kakashi held his own and held his jounin rank perfectly.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 1, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Naruto, Sasuke, Lee and Gaara at the end of part 1 are all massively stronger than gaiden Kakashi.



No, they aren't. Kakashi was Jounin level, wich was clearly shown to be at a huge gap between the Rookies in part 1. The examples of people in their level falling to Jounins are quite a bit.


----------



## Ghost (Jan 1, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Because he had a sign of how old he was huh .


Because six year olds are not the same size as 12 year olds. 

Kakashi entering Academy with his friends

Genin Kakashi at Chuunin Exams with Rin and Obito. Last time I checked Chuunins don't enter CE.

Genin Kakashi defeats Guy and is promoted to Chuunin. Is he six years old here? Im going to give you a hint and say no.



> Kakashi even gives us the exact age, 6 years younger than Naruto. Naruto was 12-13 throughout part 1. So yes 6-7 years old was the age of Kakashi at the time he become chunnin.


Retconned harder than Hiruzen being the God of Shinobi.




> This is fucking stupid and you should feel bad.





> Might GODDAMN DAI was in that war with the 8th gates mastered and he was still a genin.


So fucking what? He was a genin because he was weak. Having an ability that gives an enormous power boost with death being the toll of it doesn't make you rise in ranks if you're weak as fuck otherwise.


> Just because Itachi got promoted because of bullshit (his mom even told Sasuke he was promoted because "it was a different time" and you're using that to do it to Kakashi)doesn't mean everyone was.



-snip-

Itachi awakened Sharingan and had the wisdom of a Hokage at the age of seven and a year later he mastered Sharingan (three tomoe). Two years later (at the age of 10) he was promoted to Chuunin. You do realize he was obviously strong enough to be promoted to Chuunin?



> He learned rasengan, created chidori,


Couldn't use either of them in combat properly.


> was a sensor, tracking nin,


so is part 1 kiba. your point? 



> very fast, and had good taijutsu.


ANBU captain Itachi was even faster and more skilled and he was still just a chuunin.


> About being outclassed by the Iwa Jounin, you just conveniently forgot about Kakashi mowing through 17 kage bunshin.


Kakashi mowed through 17 fodder clones with Minato's assistance and was about get this face sliced in half by the real body if not for Minato.



> Hell, they can't even sneak up on him without him noticing.





> Don't forget Kakashi had an extended taijutsu exchange and didn't even get a scratch. Don't forget that in that taijutsu exchange Kakashi wasn't 100%, he was suffering after that from the damage he took in their first fight.





> He didn't outclass shit. Kakashi held his own and held his jounin rank perfectly.



Did you conveniently forget the fact that the Iwa shinobi were underestimating Kakashi's group because they were kids?

And: "Extended Taijutsu clash" that shit took fucking 2 seconds.



LostSelf said:


> No, they aren't.


Yes they are. Might want to re-read end of part 1.

They have way better feats.


> Kakashi was Jounin level,


Except that he wasn't. Unless you are seriously thinking gaiden Kakashi would pose any problems to part 1 Kakashi, Asuma, Guy etc.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 1, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Yes they are. Might want to re-read end of part 1.
> 
> They have way better feats.



What feats, actually? Good looking feats by appearance you might want to say. We have no idea on how those moves would affect a Jounin basing it on how it affected a Genin or Chuunin. This is the same Sasuke that was ragdolled by Itachi while Kurenai, who at least was blocking his attacks under more desfavorable conditions. To put an example. They also have better feats than Asuma, but i bet that Asuma would give them a run for their money.




> Except that he wasn't. Unless you are seriously thinking gaiden Kakashi would pose any problems to part 1 Kakashi, Asuma, Guy etc.



He was promoted to Jounin. Part 1 Kakashi was a especial Jounin among Kakashi, Asuma and Gai. But that doesn't mean Gaiden Kakashi was promoted to Jounin for the lulz.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 1, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Because six year olds are not the same size as 12 year olds.
> 
> Kakashi entering Academy with his friends
> 
> ...



And all of what you say means shit. Manga have people being 10 foot tall. So what you see means shit in the age department because we were given an exact age by Kakashi. He directly said 6 years younger than a 12/13 year old Naruto. He did say "I was younger", "I wasn't as old", "I was smaller than Naruto" etc. He said" I was 6 years younger." Giving the exact age.



> Retconned harder than Hiruzen being the God of Shinobi.



You think it was but it wasn't.



> So fucking what? He was a genin because he was weak. Having an ability that gives an enormous power boost with death being the toll of it doesn't make you rise in ranks if you're weak as fuck otherwise.



7th gate alone is a huge power up. Why wouldn't he be given the rank of chunin? Why not jounin? Why would you give some Jounin rank, a rank where you are a commander on the battlefield, to someone who doesn't rightfully deserve it? You don't. That's the best way to lose many lives, give someone a position of command they don't deserver because then they don't know what to do and end up losing lives and battles.

Show me one scan of Kakashi being promoted because it was war time. 



> You are so butt hurt over Itachi you actually bring him up on a thread that has nothing to do with him.



"Butthurt" LOL. I brought him up because that's why you're dismissing Kakashi saying he was given the rank of Jounin. Here's a fucking fact for you, Itachi is the only character in the manga to have ever been given a rank because the standards where lower. And if you want to get even more into it, Itachi graduated when he was 7. Kakashi would be 16 at that time. Do you still think the war Kakashi was in at 13 was still going on? Well then you're wrong. Obito attacked the village the day Naruto was born. So what does this tell us.

1. Minato died after the war ended.
2. Naruto is 5 years younger than Itachi.
3. Itachi was 5 years old when the war was over.
4. Itachi was given a rank based on lower standards when it wasn't even war time.
5. Kakashi was never said to be given a rank. We can conclude that the time period where the standards were different is after the war because a 8th gate user wasn't given a rank, and Kakashi, who was stated to be a genius, was never slighted like Itachi was despite being hyped for his achievements several times. And yes war time is different than a peace time aka Itachi and Kakashi lived in different time periods.



> Itachi awakened Sharingan and had the wisdom of a Hokage at the age of seven and a year later he mastered Sharingan (three tomoe). Two years later (at the age of 10) he was promoted to Chuunin. You do realize he was obviously strong enough to be promoted to Chuunin?



I'm not saying he wasn't chunnin lvl. However Kakashi had speed, taijutsu, rasengan, chidori, and a sensor. He fought jounin and held his own. How can you say he wasn't despite NOTHING saying that.



> Couldn't use either of them in combat properly.



Proof? He took out 17 kage bunshin with chidori, and nothing said he couldn't use rasengan in battle. He merely couldn't add lightning to it. And if part 1 Naruto could use it in battle, a smart, faster Kakashi definitely can.



> so is part 1 kiba. your point?



You're such a noob. Can part 1 Kiba hold a candle to a jounin? The fact is Kakashi was extremely well rounded and held his own. JOUNIN LEVEL.



> ANBU captain Itachi was even faster and more skilled and he was still just a chuunin.



Proof? You can say faster but the fight was offpanel so we don't know the speed. You can say more skilled but again, offpaneled. And they were fodder.



> Kakashi mowed through 17 fodder clones with Minato's assistance and was about get this face sliced in half by the real body if not for Minato.



Jounins. Minato didn't do anything to help Kakashi except when Kakashi got to the real one and the guy was about to counter. Saying he had previously been attacked by the jutsu 17 times (shadow clones knowledge go back to the original) then obviously he would have some knowledge on how to deal with it and he picked the perfect way. Doesn't mean shit as Kakashi still one shotted 17 kage bunshin by a jounin (and as Sasuke put 100x0 is 0, talking about Naruto. So if the Mahiru was say a 20, 17x20=340, not fodder clones by any manner) and had a taijutsu scuffle and came out unharmed.



> Did you conveniently forget the fact that the Iwa shinobi were underestimating Kakashi's group because they were kids?



Scan? 



> And: "Extended Taijutsu clash" that shit took fucking 2 seconds.



They clashed several times.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jan 1, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Yes they are. Might want to re-read end of part 1.
> 
> They have way better feats.
> 
> Except that he wasn't. Unless you are seriously thinking gaiden Kakashi would pose any problems to part 1 Kakashi, Asuma, Guy etc.




Kakashi, Asuma and Gai are elite jounin, most jounin would not pose any threats to them.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 1, 2015)

Kakashi obviously wins this


----------



## trance (Jan 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Kakashi wins this.
> 
> No part 1 K11 was in the level of a Jounin. Probably not even near.



Sorry but Lee, Sauce, Gaara and Nardo were _all_ on the level of a Jonin by the end of Part I. Lee's speed with the fourth gate warranted an adult Kakashi to regard him as fast. KN0 Naruto made a joke out of Haku, stated to be on similar terms with Zabuza. Gaara forced Kimimaro to his maximum and even in his sick state, Kimimaro was decisively above the Sound Four, who could edge out two Tokubetsu Jonin.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 2, 2015)

Sasuke after Chidori and taijutsu training is basically Gaiden Kakashi, except his body can support the Sharingan much longer, and he has copied Lee's taijutsu quite well by Gai's own admission.

It can be inferred from Obito's stats, and from the fact that Obito was keeping up with Kakashi (and then some,) that Kakashi wasn't actually a "Jonin level" by Zabuza's standards.

Gaiden Kakashi was not a "jonin level" that could hang with Zabuza, Darui, Asuma, or even pissant-Taiseki. He was a punk/arrogant kid that was promoted early because of the world war going on.​


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2015)

Kakashi was a jonin in rank who fought and died well against other more experienced jonin from other nations.  He fought Taiseki by tracking the minor shifts in air currents.  Sasuke with sharingan got beat by chunin from another village, and I don't he could fight anyone by air ruffles without his magic eyes.  

Kakashi also beat Guy, who was like Rock Lee at the time, in taijutsu.  Though arguably better, since his intense training started since he was born, and not at becoming a genin.  Sasukes taijutsu wasn't as good as Lees, not really.  

Sasuke is closer to Obito, in arsenal, eyes, and stats than gaiden Kakashi, if you really think about it, and look at them.  Gaiden Obito was, even if given cool points and a little intelligence, decidedly chunin to Kakashi's jonin.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jan 2, 2015)

What PoW said. Kakashi was Jonin. Low-end at that time. But still Jonin. "He was promoted due to War!" is dumb. What is the point of promoting weaklings? Konoha needed more people to lead and carry squads. When bloodlusted Iwa-nin were around. People were pushed to train harder and faster. Not "we need more jonins in our ranks so that Iwagakure would be impressed by how many jonins we have! Let's promote all chunins!". Kakashi was deemed good enough by Minato and Hiruzen to act as Jonin in times of war. And those two are the kind to _not_ throw inexperienced kids into suicide missions. 

Sasuke's performance was deemed chunin-lvl. After showing Lee-lvl taijutsu/speed and Chidori. Unstable CS1 isn't enough to reach the next rank imo. 

Portrayal aside it is difficult to properly evaluate Kakashi. We know that his speed should be at least on the same level as Lee/Sauce because it was the bare minimum for Chidori. But I'd argue that he is faster. He was fighting in the War for a good while before developing Chidori. And we know that Chidori came from his inability to upgrade Rasengan. It is likely that he tried to create jutsu based around his own abilities(already good speed for example) and fighting style. While Sauce needed to be quickly pushed to improve his scrub stats and he still had problems with using his new speed. 

Ninjutsu-wise Kakashi only showed Chidori and Rasengan. He likely had more(possibly summons) due to him being a fully-fledged shinobi for like 5+ years(and being skilled enough to use Rasengan without clones) but we can't really use that. Better senses from being able to notice hidden enemies and already keen sense of smell. Taijutsu-wise... again difficult to gauge his level but he did beat Gai and went against Jonins in CQC. Without Sharingan. 

So imo - VotE Sasuke ~> Gaiden Kakashi > CE Sasuke. CE Sasuke is better Chidori-user(assuming it is Sharingan-less Kakashi) but that's all really. Kakashi can still defend himself with Rasengan or his own Chidori. And then outperform his future student.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 2, 2015)

being "jonin" does not prove much. Naruto was a genin up until 699. That does not mean has been the weakest the whole time. We have seen those things a lot in the manga. 

anyway, if Kakashi does not have the sharingan here, he will lose.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2015)

Naruto is a famous example of one.  He's an exception to the rule.  One or two oddballs doesn't mean the rule needs to be thrown out, unless you want to argue everyone is an exception, and that the chunin exams test nothing, the Academy teaches nothing, and the titles of Jonin, Kage, Chunin, and Genin are and always have always been randomly passed out to whoever.

Hashirama and Madara implemented an academy and ranking system to keep kids off the battlefield, and regulate missions to appropriately skilled ninja so people wouldn't be dying so much.  The fact that most ninjas now live to have children, and those children seem to not die in droves, means the system is, by and large, working.  Which means that overall, ranks do mean something in universe, and are taken seriously.


----------



## SusanooKakashiCanon (Jan 2, 2015)

Sasuke wins easily.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 2, 2015)

Obito was a chunin when he defeated all the Jonin and ANBU from the mist without a scratch.


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Jan 2, 2015)

Obito had the Sharingan that time, my OP must be clarified, Kakashi had no Shringan here in scenario 1 and he had a sharingan in Scenario 2.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 2, 2015)

without sharingan Kakashi is only a fodder in my book. 
I don't see what he can do. Heck, he can't even use his Chidori, so yeah, Sasuke wins.

2nd scenario might go either way..


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Jan 2, 2015)

Obito had the Sharingan that time, my OP must be clarified, Kakashi had no Shringan here in scenario 1 and he had a sharingan in Scenario 2.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito was a chunin when he defeated all the Jonin and ANBU from the mist without a scratch.



Obito had half hashirama's body (which gave him mokuton), spiral zetsu suit (which gave him immense stats boosts), and kamui. He was far above chunnin level at that time. Sasuke, in this match, was stated to be chunnin level. He doesn't have any extra boosts or anything, so he's chunnin.


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Jan 2, 2015)

Hussain.

Sorry, but Kakashi can use Chidori or Raikiri without Sharingan, didyou forget that he was assigned by Minato as captain, and he boasted himself to try a NEW jutsu that Minato was not in favor in using: he does it with or without sharingan.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 2, 2015)

mm just for the reference, may you tell me where he was stated to be chunin level? 
I haven't read the first page honestly, so I do not know if someone already posted that. -_-



Invictus-Kun said:


> Hussain.
> 
> Sorry, but Kakashi can use Chidori or Raikiri without Sharingan, didyou forget that he was assigned by Minato as captain, and he boasted himself to try a NEW jutsu that Minato was not in favor in using: he does it with or without sharingan.



my point is about how Minato told him the flaws in his jutsu, and how it can be countered easily. So, Sasauke would be better her because he has the Sharingan
and would be able to counter it.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 2, 2015)

Right here. Hate to tell you but chunnin loses to jounin everytime. Rouge ninja's and Naruto are the only exceptions because they never got the chance to be promoted.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 2, 2015)

I see. Thanks.

Dai, was a genin and he took on 7 jonin. 

Also, Obito was a chunin when he killed the jonin that destroyed Kakashi's eye. 

Edit: Did not Gaara took a B-Rank mission (Jonin-Rank) and finished it without a scratch?  

and when little Narudo destroyed Kabuto with a Rassengan. @>@
he even defeated Hiruzen (Hokage-level) with D-Rank jutsu!


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I see. Thanks.
> 
> Dai, was a genin and he took on 7 jonin.


Wiith the 8th gate.





> Also, Obito was a chunin when he killed the jonin that destroyed Kakashi's eye.


And? Obito showed nothing special


> Edit: Did not Gaara took a B-Rank mission (Jonin-Rank) and finished it without a scratch?


Yes he did. And was Gaara not promoted straight from Genin to Kage? Yea he was.


> and when little Narudo destroyed Kabuto with a Rassengan. @>@
> he even defeated Hiruzen (Hokage-level) with D-Rank jutsu!


And Kabuto was mainly a medic and showed that his medical skills are well above a normal medic when he got hit by that Rasengan. Wasn't Kabuto a genin aswell?

The same one that was useful against Kaguya?


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Jan 2, 2015)

Let's stop the crap about ninja ranks cause we could not use that as basis.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 2, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Wiith the 8th gate.And? Obito showed nothing special
> Yes he did. And was Gaara not promoted straight from Genin to Kage? Yea he was.
> 
> And Kabuto was mainly a medic and showed that his medical skills are well above a normal medic when he got hit by that Rasengan. Wasn't Kabuto a genin aswell?
> ...



Man, do you think there is a sense to argue with Hussain? He sees only things that are suitable for him. He doesnt pay any attention to details.


----------



## ceralux (Jan 2, 2015)

Gaiden Kakashi might be stronger than Sasuke up to the end of Part 1.
votE Sasuke > Gaiden Kakashi
Gaiden Kakashi >= Chunin Exams Arc Sasuke


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Jan 2, 2015)

Lol, that is true, he claimed Kakashi was not able to do Raikiri or Chidori without sharingan, but it was canon, he could do it.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jan 2, 2015)

Am I the only one who is going to point out that Chuunin Exam Sasuke wasn't actually good enough to even become a Chuunin? Are we leaving out that Kakashi is far more experienced and far more intelligent than Sasuke as well? Promotions do exist in there world for a reason.

As for the person who points out that Kakashi called Sasuke fast during the chuunin exam, that doesn't mean anything....if I see my 10 year old nephew beat a bunch of other 10 year old nephews in a race, it would be appropriate for me to say he is fast, it doesn't mean he is as fast as me or other adults.

For any parts of the Gaiden arc where it seemed like Kakashi was humbled, we have to remember that he was facing *superior* competition to what Sasuke had faced. He was fighting other Jounin and Chuunin in a full blown war, while only being backed up with two incompetent genin. I think people are spoiled by adult Kakashi, who is pretty much Kage level as opposed to just Jounin level.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 2, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> What PoW said. Kakashi was Jonin. Low-end at that time. But still Jonin.



Sure, but would anybody here arguing with "Jonin" hype think a Jonin wouldn't have the reflexes for pre-Sharingan Obito? Or that a hyped Jonin would be saved by a 2-tomoe Obito?

My point is the difference between that, and the basis of Jonin hype is so huge that it's completely pointless to argue by rank, especially given that wartime pushed ranks upward. (Below.)​


Alex Payne said:


> "He was promoted due to War!" is dumb. What is the point of promoting weaklings?



I have to admit, this statement annoyed me. It's not dumb. It's so well supported that I'm shocked a poster as excellent as you would blow it off. The mission classification corresponds with rank.

And we know missions where enemy ninja may be encountered are automatically considered B-rank at the very least. In wartime, you can expect that to increase as entire enemy platoons are roaming.

Next, if you'll recall, even Sasuke's mom mentioned this as a partial reason as to why Itachi was pushed through the academy and became a Genin in one year instead of Sasuke's four.

Then, when the war ended that year, it took Itachi three years, at age ten, to become a Chuunin despite mastering the 3-tomoe Sharingan at  age eight (putting him way above the power threshold.)

Unless you think at age 8 the Hokage-wisdom Itachi with a mastered 3-tomoe Sharingan would perform worse than pre-Sharingan Obito or 6-year-old Kakashi. (Not even IchLiebe believes that.)

I'd go so far as to say that the wartime rank-push isn't just a solid interpretation, but a *fact* that should be accepted by all readers, especially handsome, intelligent Russians.​


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> People don't understand what "low-end Jonin" means, because the rank was introduced and hyped by Kakashi and Zabuza. And Zabuza would consider Gaiden Kakashi a complete joke of a scrub.
> 
> Would anybody here arguing with "Jonin" hype think a Jonin wouldn't have the reflexes to react to a pre-Sharingan Obito? Or that a hyped Jonin would need to be saved by a 2-tomoe Obito?
> 
> My point is the difference between that, and the basis of Jonin hype is so huge that it's completely pointless to argue rank, especially when you should not ignore the wartime push.​




That's so ignorant. Kakashi saved Obito several times. Just because Obito killed the guy when he got sharingan doesn't mean he saved Kakashi. He saved himself, as the guy was coming at him. Kakashi showed to be faster, smarter, and better than Obito easily. Obito got kicked around by Gai, Kakashi beat him. 2 tomoe Obito is about as good as Sasuke before he got the speed boost, and booth get their teeth kicked in by KAkashi like Lee did to Sasuke.



> I have to admit, you're annoying me a little here. It's not dumb, it's so well supported that I'm shocked you'd miss it. The mission classification requires rank to perform.
> 
> And we know missions where enemy ninja may be encountered are automatically considered B-rank at the very least. In wartime, you can expect that to increase as entire platoons are roaming.​




And? Giving rank to someone who doesn't deserve it gets people killed. When they don't deserve to be leading a squad they get killed. And do you think Hiruzen and Minato would just give that rank to a 13 year old kid who doesn't deserve it? 



> Furthermore, if you recall, even Sasuke's mom mentioned this as a partial reason as to why Itachi was pushed through the academy and became a Genin in one year instead of Sasuke's four.



Yep and it's fucking bullshit that you try and discredit Kakashi because of Shitachi. Because they pushed kids out of the academy doesn't mean they made kids fucking Jounin. Might Dai was still a genin. Gai was still a chunin. Asuma was chunin. And several others. They didn't promote people to jounin, who gets to lead squads, if they didn't deserve it because that kills people. Would you let a 13 year old kid lead grown ass men if he didn't deserve it? No.



> Then, when the war ended that year, it took Itachi three years, at age ten, to become a Chuunin despite mastering the 3-tomoe Sharingan at  age eight (putting him _way_ above the power threshold.)




Who said the sharingan put him above the power threshold? He still could've been getting smacked around. You don't know.



Strategoob said:


> Unless you think at age 8 the Hokage-wisdom Itachi with a mastered 3-tomoe Sharingan would perform worse than pre-Sharingan Obito or 6-year-old Kakashi. (Not even IchLiebe believes that.)
> 
> I'd go so far as to say that the wartime rank-push isn't just a solid interpretation, but a *fact* that should be accepted by all readers, especially handsome, intelligent Russians. [/indent]



Chunnin isn't about power. That's why Shikamaru got the rank and Sasuke and Naruto didn't. Here's what chunnin means. So that age 8 Hokage wisdom is just hype bullshit. And yes 6 year old Kakashi, who smacked around might Gai, would beat Itachi's fucking brains in.

To genin yeah, maybe they did push them out of the academy. To fucking jounin, you're out of your mind.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 2, 2015)

Maybe you didn't read the Gaiden, IchLiebe, but Kakashi was a complete dick to his team, and his strategy of 'Chidori everything by myself' would have ended with him dead if not for Minato.

I highly doubt someone that Hiruzen praised as having a Hokage's wisdom performed worse than Gaiden Kakashi, let alone a 6-year-old Kakashi, in power _*or otherwise*_.

Also, here. It's impliedthere that Kakashi is a Jonin because Konoha military power's at an all-time-low. I probably should have just started with that.​


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Maybe you didn't read the Gaiden, IchLiebe, but Kakashi was a complete dick to his team, and his strategy of 'Chidori everything' almost got him killed in his first shown fight.
> 
> I highly doubt someone that Hiruzen praised as having a Hokage's wisdom performed worse than Gaiden Kakashi, let alone a 6-year-old Kakashi, in power _*or otherwise*_.​




And? He still went for the mission. You got to know when to save teammates and when to go for the mission.



> And holy shit, /debate



Yeah, their team was being split. He wasn't saying Kakashi was promoted because of bullshit.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito was a chunin when he defeated all the Jonin and ANBU from the mist without a scratch.



Obito was a chunin when he left the village on a mission.  On and after the mission, he haunted gained sharing an, kamui, mangekyo, mokuton, half a Hashirama body, super strength, and had an experienced Zetsu programmed by Madara assist and move for him, as his super powered exoskeleton.  

What do you want, the spirit of Sarutobi to show up and declare him a Jonin before he got into a fight?  Or do you think if Obito was in the village at the time he got universal haxx his increase in power wouldn't have been recognized by the village?


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Jan 2, 2015)

Man, my thread was so cool due to Strate and Ichie debate.

Here's what, Kakashi was just dicking to show his new jutsu in his teamates, he was being an ass to that. But this is a fight,IQ REALLY MATTERS, Sasuke had the precog advantage, but Kakashi is wiser and a genius.
Sasuke on exam has Chidori, Speed, and Sharingan.
Kakashi in Gaiden has Chidori, IQ, experience and speed.


----------



## Veo (Jan 3, 2015)

Gaiden Kakashi is stronger than chuunin Sasuke and would win this fight low difficult. His taijutsu alone is much better.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 3, 2015)

Invictus-Kun said:


> Man, my thread was so cool due to Strate and Ichie debate.
> 
> Here's what, Kakashi was just dicking to show his new jutsu in his teamates, he was being an ass to that. But this is a fight,IQ REALLY MATTERS, Sasuke had the precog advantage, but Kakashi is wiser and a genius.
> Sasuke on exam has Chidori, Speed, and Sharingan.
> Kakashi in Gaiden has Chidori, IQ, experience and speed.



Sasuke only had the two tomoe sharingan during the chunin exams. And he didn't unlock the precog until 3-tomoe. It was clearly shown when Sasuke and Naruto fought at the VOTE.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 3, 2015)

Trance said:


> Sorry but Lee, Sauce, Gaara and Nardo were _all_ on the level of a Jonin by the end of Part I. Lee's speed with the fourth gate warranted an adult Kakashi to regard him as fast. KN0 Naruto made a joke out of Haku, stated to be on similar terms with Zabuza. Gaara forced Kimimaro to his maximum and even in his sick state, Kimimaro was decisively above the Sound Four, who could edge out two Tokubetsu Jonin.



Rock Lee was at best a bit above Neji in that fight, who had serious troubles defeating a Chuunin. Kakashi saying he is fast means nothing more that Lee is fast, or fast for his age and for being a Genin. Unless we asume that Lee's speed is too much for Kakashi to give him troubles, when he had defeated Gai, who was at the time a lot stronger.

Sasuke was defeated by Chuunins as well, Chuunins that couldn't take on 2 tired Jounins using cursed seal. Naruto and his KN0 was easly dispatched by Kimimaro, a Jounin level. And Gaara, the strongest of the Rookies by that time, managed to hold his own thanks to Kimimaro's agonizing sickness and even then, he was about to die.

Haku was a retcon or didn't want to kill Naruto, because in part 2 he showed to be more than capable of blitzing his ass off and kill him.

If Part 1 taught us something, that something was the huge difference between the Rookies and Jounin level shinobis yet. Sasuke being stomped by Itachi and Kurenai doing better against a more aggresive one and under desfavorables circunstances is a good example, like i said,

And she is not the Taijutsu type fighter.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jan 4, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sure, but would anybody here arguing with "Jonin" hype think a Jonin wouldn't have the reflexes for pre-Sharingan Obito? Or that a hyped Jonin would be saved by a 2-tomoe Obito?


 Oh, please. Should I post Minato being punched by Naruto as Naruto>Minato in speed? That wasn't a fight. And that _Jonin_ needed to be saved because he was wounded prior that by saving his teammate. And Obito having the perfect ability to use in that situation. 



Strategoob said:


> My point is the difference between that, and the basis of Jonin hype is so huge that it's completely pointless to argue by rank, especially given that wartime pushed ranks upward. (Below.)


 War-time didn't push the ranks upwards. It pushed people to train harder and faster. And promote them the moment they met the minimum requirements. Requirements are the same for peace/war times. Difference is in kids not being pushed. Kids having time to stay in lower ranks and polish their skills even though they qualify power-wise for a promotion. Kids like CE Neji and CE Sauce would be promoted to chunin after the Exam if the War was going on. They were overall capable to fight on that level. They weren't suited to lead but give them a jonin leader and you have a solid platoon. 



Strategoob said:


> I have to admit, this statement annoyed me. It's not dumb. It's so well supported that I'm shocked a poster as excellent as you would blow it off. The mission classification corresponds with rank.
> 
> And we know missions where enemy ninja may be encountered are automatically considered B-rank at the very least. In wartime, you can expect that to increase as entire enemy platoons are roaming.



Do you seriously think that mission rankings are the same in the peace-time and war-time? You know when ranks are also tied to payment as stated in your scan. I have my doubts about outside source of payment for killing people trying to destroy your Village. You have stuff like rescuing cats and protection from random bandits. System was different imo.



Strategoob said:


> Next, if you'll recall, even Sasuke's mom mentioned this as a partial reason as to why Itachi was pushed through the academy and became a Genin in one year instead of Sasuke's four.


 Yeah. He was pushed to train and take the evaluation as early as possible. Sauce already had borderline chunin-lvl skills in some areas at the Bell Test when he busted out Gokakyu(Part 1 standards at least). There was no need for new high-ranked shinobi so people didn't pay as much attention. War - "Talented student? Let's motivate him to train and evaluate him as early as possible!" Peace - "Talented student? Oh, well. Would be interesting to see his future growth I guess.". Makes sense imo. 



Strategoob said:


> Then, when the war ended that year, it took Itachi three years, at age ten, to become a Chuunin despite mastering the 3-tomoe Sharingan at age eight (putting him way above the power threshold.)


 You do have proof for that timeline of yours, don't you? Because even Kishimoto doesn't. So let's see it. You know - proof about war ending that exact year. Konoha having chunin exams every year(or more often). Fugaku's agenda not interfering with all that. Stuff like that. 



Strategoob said:


> Unless you think at age 8 the Hokage-wisdom Itachi with a mastered 3-tomoe Sharingan would perform worse than pre-Sharingan Obito or 6-year-old Kakashi. (Not even IchLiebe believes that.)


 Hokage-like mindset. Mindset. It was *mindset*. Please. I know fans try to support their characters using every little thing(I do to) but it was mindset. We have no idea about 8-years old Itachi. Mastered 3-tomoe? Awesome. Was his physical speed already good enough to utilize his enhanced perception? Maybe. Maybe not. What were his other skills? Maybe he spent all his time on Sharingan. Or maybe he already had some low-lvl Suitons to go with polished Katons? No idea. Obito actually got the same DB speed stat as CE Sasuke(you love those stats, don't you) and showed decent-size Gokakyu. His problem was in his head - not handling bloodlusted Jonins around. His actual abilities are decent when he is confident and is actually using them - his combo with Kakashi was more about his core taijutsu skills/wits than Sharingan. You need to have a solid foundation to use those magical eye-balls. Or you'd have your teeth kicked out by Lee. 



Strategoob said:


> I'd go so far as to say that the wartime rank-push isn't just a solid interpretation, but a *fact* that should be accepted by all readers, especially handsome, intelligent Russians.


 There isn't a single mention of standards being lowered. People are pushed to train harder and take evaluation earlier. Maybe I missed something but I don't see statements that support your view. We also have Iruka's statement that Kakashi's promotion was about Kakashi himself and not war-time. Also, no u 


You aren't going to change your mind I think. So explain to me. In your opinion. What was the reasoning behind "pushing the ranks upwards" as you call it? Because I don't see it. You are giving people tasks they can't perform. It is pointless and counterproductive. You'd have people with potential dying before realizing that potential. They need to be qualified enough to at least have 51% chance of success. And something tells me that chunin/jonins requirements are already based around that area. Not to mention that it is Konoha we are talking about. Led by Sarutobi of all people. Not Hidden Mist or pre-Gaara Sand.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 4, 2015)

without sharingon kakashi loses pretty handily imo, they have identical speed but sasuke will just out maneuver him with sharingon precognition and a superior chidori thanks to the pre cog.
even with the sharingon, without a uchiha body it's very likely kakashi is simply outlasted, i think gaiden kakashi is being a bit overrated here.



any of the the top tier genin from part one will hand his ass to him imo.




garra was giving kimmimaru a run for his money, no way in hell is kakashi putting up a fight against the garra that fought kimmimaru.
Neji rotations any chidori attempts and beats him in cqc with gentle fist.


sasuke is basically kakashi with two sharingons and a uchiha body that doesn't tire as fast as kakashi.
naruto can pull off a win if he can tap into the 9 tails chakra like he did against neji.


and rock lee beats the piss out of him, with the 6 gates.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 4, 2015)

gaiden kakashi was so skilled that he was promoted to jounin and a team captain....to downplay this feat because of war is baseless...kakashi was an insane prodigy for his age he created an a rank technique at such a young age.it shows how far ahead he was...at age 5 he graduated from the Academy early top of his class this was even faster then itachi who graduated at 7 itachi was quite a bit ahead of sasuke in skill and development speed..
even without sharingan he was able to beat gai in a fight..just because someone has a sharingan does not mean they are automatically superior...one skiled enough in taijutsu can beat someone even with a sharingan.....hidan was able to hold his own vs sharngan kakashi..kakashi without sharingan would clean the clock of gaiden obito with sharingan...the whole soundfour in cs2 couldnt defeat two jounin..this was shown to highlight a jounins strength..


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> gaiden kakashi was so skilled that he was promoted to jounin and a team captain....to downplay this feat because of war is baseless...kakashi was an insane prodigy for his age...at age 5 he graduated from the Academy early top of his class this was even faster then itachi who graduated at 7 itachi was quite a bit ahead of sasuke in skill and development speed..
> even without sharingan he was able to beat gai in a fight..just because someone has a sharingan does not mean they are automatically superior...one skiled enough in taijutsu can beat someone even with a sharingan.....hidan was able to hold his own vs sharngan kakashi..kakashi without sharingan would clean the clock of gaiden obito with sharingan...the whole soundfour in cs2 couldnt defeat two jounin..this was shown to highlight a jounins strength..



from a feat standpoint this argument doesn't hold up




sasuke is just as fast as kakashi and has a sharingon to boot. why is he losing to kakashi in a taijutsu or cqc bout other then kakashi's jounin hype?


ok and itachi soloed a sanin at age 13, while that same sanin made kakashi at age 26 shyt his pants lol, this is why hype isn't everything


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 4, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> from a feat standpoint this argument doesn't hold up
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh how do you know they have the same speed? sasuke was pitted against chuunin while kakashi was going against jounin this sasuke was easily beaten by 2 members of the sound4 while the whole sound4 were not able to beat 2 average jounin of the leaf....kakashi is promoted to jounin so he met the hype he achieved the required standard of an average jounin .. he was jounin and chuunin  faster then itachi and graduated 2years faster then itachi...who was a chunnin at 10 who do you think is more skilled at the same age itachi or sasuke?In itachis own words itachi was more skilled in his eyes

Itachis case was turned upside down because of the mankegyo that bypasses natural growth laughabely..obito was able to fight minato because of one kamui eye..


----------



## Max Thunder (Jan 4, 2015)

This jounin argument is bull shit.

Being jounin or not don't mean shit.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Oh how do you know they have the same speed? sasuke was pitted against chuunin while kakashi was going against jounin this sasuke was easily beaten by 2 members of the sound4 while the whole sound4 were not able to beat 2 average jounin of the leaf....kakashi is promoted to jounin so he met the hype he achieved the required standard of an average jounin .. he was jounin and chuunin  faster then itachi and graduated 2years faster then itachi...who was a chunnin at 10 who do you think is more skilled at the same age itachi or sasuke?In itachis own words itachi was more skilled in his eyes
> 
> Itachis case was turned upside down because of the mankegyo that bypasses natural growth laughabely..obito was able to fight minato because of one kamui eye..




Because they both use chidori, a technique that requires high speed, it's very likely they both have similar speed when we consider this, minato told kakashi his technique was incomplete due to not being able to counter when moving that fast, in scenario 1 sasuke has a perfected chidori thanks to sharingon precognition while kakashi does not yet where suppose to believe kakashi somehow wins ?



abc logic doesn't work, how do we know the 2 jounin the sound 4 fought wasn't vastly superior to gaiden kakashi? all jounin aren't the same power level.




again a baseless argument, why bring up the mangekyo when itachi bested orochimaru with 3 tomoe sharingon and a simple kunai at age 13? at age 26 kakashi was terrified of orochimaru with those same tools how do you explain this?


even in there exchange itachi was putting massive pressure on kakashi despite kakashi having back up before he even used his ms.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 4, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> Because they both use chidori, a technique that requires high speed, it's very likely they both have similar speed when we consider this, minato told kakashi his technique was incomplete due to not being able to counter when moving that fast, in scenario 1 sasuke has a perfected chidori thanks to sharingon precognition while kakashi does not yet where suppose to believe kakashi somehow wins ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So war arc kakashi once narutohealed his eye has the same speed as chunnin sasuke they use chidori afterall and i guess this sasuke will use it better in cqc as well...

You are the onemaking the baseless argument you have no proof that kakashi was below the standard of a jounin we know the general standard of a jounin as shown by these average jounin and kishimoto portrayed the level of a jounin through them the sound 4 said that they needed to go all out to survive they were jounin after all...what we do know is that kakashi made the standard of jounin and team captain was an insane prodigy who gradauated faster then itachi became a chunnin faster and a jounin faster this strengthens the argument in kakashis favor while you have none to back our baseless argument that just because you say so kakashi is much weaker then the average jounin...

Baseless argument my ass  obito was able to take on minato through one kamui eye..orochimaru realised the threat of itachis eye prowess {his mankegyo} you really think all of orochimarus arsenal can be beat by an itachi restricted to 3 tomtoe and a kunai  You want to bring makegyo into this once kakashi mastered kamui he is pretty much able to go toe to toe with itachi..


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> So war arc kakashi once narutohealed his eye has the same speed as chunnin sasuke they use chidori afterall and i guess this sasuke will use it better in cqc as well...




I will concede this point when you show me a scan of gaiden kakashi moving much faster then chunin exam sasuke, don't worry ill wait.


it's very likely that chidori is the height of gaiden kakashi's speed when we consider the fact that he can't even see to counter in time if his opponents happens to dodge it.



sabre320 said:


> You are the onemaking the baseless argument you have no proof that kakashi was below the standard of a jounin we know the general standard of a jounin as shown by these average jounin and kishimoto portrayed the level of a jounin through them the sound 4 said that they needed to go all out to survive they were jounin after all...what we do know is that kakashi made the standard of jounin and team captain was an insane prodigy who gradauated faster then itachi became a chunnin faster and a jounin faster this strengthens the argument in kakashis favor while you have none to back our baseless argument that just because you say so kakashi is much weaker then the average jounin...


i never ever said kakashi was below the standard of a jounin, i said we don't know if him and the jounin that the sound 4 fought are at the same power level which is true, unless you can prove other wise?



sabre320 said:


> Baseless argument my ass  obito was able to take on minato through one kamui eye..orochimaru realised the threat of itachis eye prowess {his mankegyo} you really think all of orochimarus arsenal can be beat by an itachi restricted to 3 tomtoe and a kunai  You want to bring makegyo into this once kakashi mastered kamui he is pretty much able to go toe to toe with itachi..




that's nice but i didn't bring up obito in any of my post, you also fail to address the other things obito had in his arsenal, like senju dna which allowed him to spam ms and the 9 tails but all of this is irrelevant anyway.

 itachi beat orochimaru with 3 tomoe and a kunai  Manga canon, kakashi was scared of orochimaru when he had these same tools at his disposal and he was 13 years older then the itachi that fought orochimaru manga canon, not sure why your trying to twist this into something it isn't, orochimaru never said i better leave before he uses his mangekyo, he simply got countered with genjutsu, and got his hand cut off nothing more nothing less itachi besting a sanin opponent at age 13 trumps kakashi graduating the academy 2 years earlier then him, we have to watch there entire growth as a process and not just isolate old hype because it benefits our argument.



i agree with that sentiment war arc kakashi and itachi is debatable, but you also have to agree with the sentiment itachi mastered his mangekyo much much faster then kakashi.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 4, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> I will concede this point when you show me a scan of gaiden kakashi moving much faster then chunin exam sasuke, don't worry ill wait.
> 
> 
> it's very likely that chidori is the height of gaiden kakashi's speed when we consider the fact that he can't even see to counter in time if his opponents happens to dodge it.
> ...



What you also have to agree is that kakashi did not awaken his mankegyo in the same manner as itachi he wasnt even aware of its existance till much later...itachi knew how to unlock the mankegyo and with knowledge devealoped those techniques because he read the tablet..


----------



## Bonly (Jan 4, 2015)

Hard to say by feats since we've barely seen much from Kakashi at the time but I'd favor him since he was a bit more impressive though could go either way


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> What you also have to agree is that kakashi did not awaken his mankegyo in the same manner as itachi he wasnt even aware of its existance till much later...itachi knew how to unlock the mankegyo and with knowledge devealoped those techniques because he read the tablet..



i could agree with that, kakashi is a genius i wouldn't deny him his moment in the sun. I just feel a lot of his power came after obtaining the sharingon, so i can't really see him besting sasuke or any of the other rookies who are considered a genius without it.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 4, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> i could agree with that, kakashi is a genius i wouldn't deny him his moment in the sun. I just feel a lot of his power came after obtaining the sharingon, so i can't really see him besting sasuke or any of the other rookies who are considered a genius without it.



Kakashi was an insane prodigy even rare among geniuses his development was just insanely quick..yet without the sharingan he bacame a jounin and a chunnin even though itachi had awakened the sharingan at that time....he later focused his devealopement on the sharingan excluding the mankegyo i honestly believe he would be stronger then his tomtoe self...he would have focused on gates ect more ever since he got the sharingan his rapid development slowed..


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kids like CE Neji and CE Sauce would be promoted to chunin after the Exam if the War was going on. They were overall capable to fight on that level. They weren't suited to lead but give them a jonin leader and you have a solid platoon.



Relative to the demon brothers, I'd say CE Sasuke and CE Neji were _*way*_ above the power standard. They, along with Rock Lee or Gaara, would effortlessly defeat those two Chunin.​


Alex Payne said:


> Hokage-like mindset. Mindset. It was *mindset*. Please. I know fans try to support their characters using every little thing(I do to) but it was mindset. We have no idea about 8-years old Itachi. Mastered 3-tomoe? Awesome. Was his physical speed already good enough to utilize his enhanced perception? Maybe. Maybe not. What were his other skills? Maybe he spent all his time on Sharingan. Or maybe he already had some low-lvl Suitons to go with polished Katons? No idea.



Let's cut the bullshit though. Do you seriously believe, based the context and contents of the manga, that a 6-year-old Kakashi was more qualified than an 8-year-old Itachi to rank up?

Even if Itachi had no particular talent or reflex relative to his age (imo highly, highly unlikely,) and Kakashi was _way_ above him in those areas at age 6, the 3-tomoe Sharingan is too much.

KN0 was completely blitzing 2-tomoe Sasuke worse than Lee did prior to Sasuke's training up. Then the 3-tomoe came around and Sasuke was easily controlling the battle because of its insight.​


Alex Payne said:


> Obito actually got the same DB speed stat as CE Sasuke(you love those stats, don't you)



Um, Sasuke had (an upper) 3.5 and Obito had a 3 like Wave Arc Sasuke. Obito was overall less proficient as a ninja than Wave Arc Sasuke, and significantly less skilled than CE Sasuke.

And I say upper 3.5 because Sasuke's speed was compared to Lee, who had a 4 in the databook. So it was nearly there. And Wave Arc Sasuke (and Obito) had a 3.0.​


Alex Payne said:


> You aren't going to change your mind I think. So explain to me. In your opinion. What was the reasoning behind "pushing the ranks upwards" as you call it? Because I don't see it.



Primarily, that Mikoto said that Itachi was pushed through the academy in one year, in part, because "times were different."

And secondarily, because there's just no way anybody should believe that 6-year-old Kakashi was more advanced and developed than CE Neji, CE Sasuke, Gaara, or Itachi with a mastered Sharingan.

So my overall point is that rank is a completely worthless factor in Battledome threads. If standards don't change, then let's say because promotions have extremely little to do with fighting ability.

After all, the gap between CE Shikamaru and CE Neji is so large that Neji could defeat 5-10 Shikamarus. Similarly, Neji could also quite soundly defeat the Jonin Taiseki if Obito did.​


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Kakashi was an insane prodigy even rare among geniuses his development was just insanely quick..yet without the sharingan he bacame a jounin and a chunnin even though itachi had awakened the sharingan at that time....he later focused his devealopement on the sharingan excluding the mankegyo i honestly believe he would be stronger then his tomtoe self...he would have focused on gates ect more ever since he got the sharingan his rapid development slowed..



this is where i would have to disagree, are we forgetting his alias? the copy ninja
there's also the fact that kakashi couldn't complete his chidori without the sharingon.



all of the doton trickery he implements in his fights, i personally think the sharingon makes him much stronger if anything.





him becoming a chuunin earlier then itachi is impressive, but imo itachi besting a sanin at 13 is more impressive by a large margin, the sanin where held at such a high level, it's crazy to think a 13 year old beat the standout sanin at the time.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 4, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> this is where i would have to disagree, are we forgetting his alias? the copy ninja
> there's also the fact that kakashi couldn't complete his chidori without the sharingon.
> 
> 
> ...



forgetting the mankegyo....and we are getting offtopic this isnt itachi this is sasuke itachi devealoped much faster then sasuke...itachi at the same age would be more skilled then sasuke and kakashi at that age was more skilled then itachi..


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2015)

According to  and , Itachi was 11, not 13.

So that means Itachi at 11 outshone Kakashi at 26.

It's possible Kakashi at 6 was . 

But it's unlikely. The 3-tomoe alone is a huge, huge boost in power.​


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> forgetting the mankegyo....and we are getting offtopic this isnt itachi this is sasuke itachi devealoped much faster then sasuke...itachi at the same age would be more skilled then sasuke and kakashi at that age was more skilled then itachi..



how can we conclude kakashi was stronger then itachi other then rank? this is my problem with your argument, ranks are to vague to determine overall power.
you realize at the start of part 2 naruto and sasuke was still gennin if we wanna look at there title and they would beat the piss out of this kakashi.



13 year old itachi best orochimaru without the mangekyo, bringing it up doesn't help you argument and ranks aren't everything.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2015)

CE Shikamaru vs CE Neji, CE Sasuke, Gaara, or Lee is all the example anybody needs. There's an enormous gap between them, yet Shikamaru became a Chunin and the others remained Genin.

Also, Itachi didn't have MS at the time he fought Orochimaru. He didn't get that until Shisui gave up his life (1-2 years later.) He was just an ANBU mole in Akatsuki, to watch Obito, for Hiruzen.

This was over the long period of time that Hiruzen was working on peace talks with the Uchiha, which is also how Itachi identified and collaborated with Obito, the secret Akatsuki Leader.​


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 4, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> According to  and , Itachi was 11, not 13.
> 
> So that means Itachi at 11 outshone Kakashi at 26.
> 
> ...



he was14 actually if not 15.


It's 7 years ago, and he's 21 years old, so he was 14. Now, if we take into consideration that he died around a year, so we should take 6 years away, he will
be 15.



Bkprince33 said:


> how can we conclude kakashi was stronger then itachi other then rank? this is my problem with your argument, ranks are to vague to determine overall power.
> you realize at the start of part 2 naruto and sasuke was still gennin if we wanna look at there title and they would beat the piss out of this kakashi.
> 
> 
> ...



yes pick the very extreme cases and use them as the norm....are u forgetting the fact that naruto never appeared in the exams he was training with jirayia..ect sasuke was a rogue ninja...

in normal circumstances they do show difference in rank and power..


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> It's 7 years ago, and he's 21 years old, so he was 14.



In part one, Akatsuki said it was 7 years ago Orochimaru left. 

In part two, Akatsuki said it was ten years ago Orochimaru left.

Itachi was 18 in part one, and 21 in part two.

Hence it being repeatedly confirmed through them that Itachi was 11.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 4, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> CE Shikamaru vs CE Neji, CE Sasuke, Gaara, or Lee is all the example anybody needs. There's an enormous gap between them, yet Shikamaru became a Chunin and the others remained Genin.
> 
> Also, Itachi didn't have MS at the time he fought Orochimaru. He didn't get that until Shisui gave up his life (1-2 years later.) He was just an ANBU mole in Akatsuki, to watch Obito, for Hiruzen.
> 
> This was over the long period of time that Hiruzen was working on peace talks with the Uchiha, which is also how Itachi identified and collaborated with Obito, the secret Akatsuki Leader.​



you really think itachi with 3 tomtoe can beat orochimaru who can have prep and hydra...?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> you really think itachi with 3 tomtoe can beat orochimaru who can have prep and hydra...?



It's a fact that he did. We don't really know how, but it happened.

IMO people sell Itachi short by assuming he's dependent on the MS.

He has more "5" stats than any other ninja, more than even the Sannin. 

And thus likely has other powerful ninjutsu and genjutsu not shown.

e.g. how Sasuke never used Kirin after getting MS.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> yes pick the very extreme cases and use them as the norm....are u forgetting the fact that naruto never appeared in the exams he was training with jirayia..ect sasuke was a rogue ninja...
> 
> in normal circumstances they do show difference in rank and power..



this is what everybody is trying to say to you in the thread.


War times are not the norm, which is part of the reason kakashi got promoted so fast.


kakashi situation isn't during a time of the norm and to further extend on the point as strat said

the chunnins in part 2 would beat the piss out of chunnin shikamru in part 1, hell neji, lee, garra, and sasuke where all stronger then chunnin shikmaru yet they where still labeled genin in part 1


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> hell neji, lee, garra, and sasuke where all stronger then chunnin shikmaru yet they where still labeled genin in part 1



Neji, Lee, and Sasuke could all kick in Shikamaru's teeth in the first second of the match. There would be no distinguishable difference from Shikamaru fighting them and Shikamaru fighting Minato.

For context, Shikamaru had a 2 in speed, which is a tier inferior to Wave Arc Sasuke without his 2-tomoe Sharingan. And that incarnation of Sasuke was blitzed horribly by Lee with weights. 

It's not an exaggeration to say you could put ten CE Shikamarus in a ring with weightless Lee, and Lee would slaughter all of them. And Lee was the weakest of the five elite Genin.

(KN0, Neji, Sasuke, Gaara, and Lee.)

Hence why I don't think rank counts for shit, regardless of whether "times were different" and kids were pushed through ranks faster.​


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 4, 2015)

All I hear is crying. 

CE Sasuke was said to be chunnin level. He wasn't given chunin because he didn't have the right mindset. In the war, he would've been given chunin rank but not outside of rank. How the hell you get a chunnin taking a jounin is beyond me.

It's been shown numerous times, chunnin are fodder to jounin. And Itachi is exactly that in this match. He got pushed through the chunin exams (still took him 3 years after the academy) and Kakashi was given the jounin rank (There's nothing saying they just gave people the jounin rank. Might Gai/Dai wasn't jounin. Several others wasn't. It's clear they didn't let people let platoons if they didn't have the right to). Give Kakashi his Icha Icha books and maybe Itachi can make the fight mid dif.


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Jan 4, 2015)

Naruto is Genin though until 699, and Naruto beat the assses of Kage level nins.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 4, 2015)

There are exceptions to every rule. You gonna give it to this feat less friend. He has no feats, it took him 3 years to become chunnin level yet he beats Kakashi who has feats, hype, become a chunnin at 6 (4 years younger than Itachi) and is a jounin.


----------



## Bonly (Jan 4, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> All I hear is crying.
> 
> CE Sasuke was said to be chunnin level. He wasn't given chunin because he didn't have the right mindset. In the war, he would've been given chunin rank but not outside of rank. How the hell you get a chunnin taking a jounin is beyond me.
> 
> It's been shown numerous times, chunnin are fodder to jounin. And Itachi is exactly that in this match. He got pushed through the chunin exams (still took him 3 years after the academy) and Kakashi was given the jounin rank (There's nothing saying they just gave people the jounin rank. Might Gai/Dai wasn't jounin. Several others wasn't. It's clear they didn't let people let platoons if they didn't have the right to). Give Kakashi his Icha Icha books and maybe Itachi can make the fight mid dif.





IchLiebe said:


> There are exceptions to every rule. You gonna give it to this feat less friend. He has no feats, it took him 3 years to become chunnin level yet he beats Kakashi who has feats, hype, become a chunnin at 6 (4 years younger than Itachi) and is a jounin.



This thread is about Kakashi vs Sasuke not Kakashi vs Itachi though


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> How the hell you get a chunnin taking a jounin is beyond me.
> 
> It's been shown numerous times, chunnin are fodder to jounin.



Like Obito (Chunin) paneling Taiseki (Jonin.)

Or Minato (Academy student) beating Kumo Jonin (Jonin.)

Or Itachi (Chuunin) paneling Orochimaru (Jonin.)

Or Shikamaru (Chunin) beating Hidan (Jonin.)

Or Kabuto (Genin) beating Tsunade (Jonin.)

Or Naruto (Genin) beating Pain (Jonin.)

Or Sasuke (Genin) beating Deidara (Jonin.)


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 4, 2015)

And Itachi is the one being discussed, look way above my posts.



Strategoob said:


> Like Obito (Chunin) paneling Taiseki (Jounin.)



Obito got a power up since he was chunin rank and never went back to the village. Itachi with sharingan mastered was given chunnin rank. And not to mention Taiseki thought they couldn't see him and was cheap shotted basically.


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Jan 4, 2015)

Lets stop the crap of using ninja ranks for basis since we know the ranks are unreliable. So Whats the ninja rank or Bee and Naruto? They beat many asses.

Let's focus on their arsenals instead.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 4, 2015)

Invictus-Kun said:


> Lets stop the crap of using ninja ranks for basis since we know the ranks are unreliable. So Whats the ninja rank or Bee and Naruto? They beat many asses.
> 
> Let's focus on their arsenals instead.



thank you 


unless you believe shikamaru was the strongest rookie in the sound 4 arc, then it's obvious ranks don't determine everything


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 4, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> thank you
> 
> 
> unless you believe shikamaru was the strongest rookie in the sound 4 arc, then it's obvious ranks don't determine everything



Shikamaru met the skill and power requirements to be a chunin.  Probably barely in the strength.  No one in Konoha nominates a team they think is too weak to hang with chunin candidates, because you can die in the chunin exam, and Leaf Jonin love their students.  Neji and some other elite rookies also met those power requirements.  What Shikamaru had over them was planning and leadership, and the ability to keep calm under pressure and keep his mind on the mission.

Having the chunin exams be a fight centric event set with other requirements shows us that power is important.  Almost central.  The heaven and earth scrolls were symbolic of a chunin being required to have the strength, but also the mind of a quality shinobi.  There will be times where a smart person like Sakura has the mind but not the strength, and a dude like Naruto will have chunin level strength, but not the intellect and capacity to lead and be responsible for a unit and a mission.  So there were better straight fighters, but not ones that hit both like Shikamaru did.  

Lastly, Tsunade told Naruto to gather _talented_ genin.  Meaning, genin that are far and away above genin level, but due to circumstances like the chunin exam getting interrupted, and war, and her being a 2 day old Hokage who hasn't gone through all the notes from the last exam, aren't promoted yet.  The fact that she's telling Naruto to go find the choice exceptions from the rule, again, strengthens the notion that the rule has meaning.  Besides that, they were the exceptions for maybe a few months.  Sakura told Naruto they pretty much all made Chunin the very next time the exam was hosted, which means the system works pretty well even if you're unlucky, and run into an abnormally strong competition like the rookies did.


----------



## Van Konzen (Jan 5, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Like Obito (Chunin) paneling Taiseki (Jonin.)
> 
> Or Minato (Academy student) beating Kumo Jonin (Jonin.)
> 
> ...



Ranks does still matter.
They can be a genin or chuunin officially but  most of them are jonin in terms of skill/abilities..
Same as the ranks we give them here in NF, kage tier, jonin tier and chuunin etc..

though beating someone higher ranking than you isnt impossible..
styles and prep could be a factor there..
...like we aint sure if that chuunin Itachi can beat Jiraiya who was in the same league as the Oro who Itachi beat..
...shikamaru didnt solo Hidan, he had back up.. and he had prep time..
...Part 2 Nardo and Sauce are Jonin in skills and abilities..

Chuunin Exam Sasuke isnt a jonin tier shinobi..
Gaiden Kakashi beats him..


----------



## Violent by Design (Jan 5, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> thank you
> 
> 
> unless you believe shikamaru was the strongest rookie in the sound 4 arc, then it's obvious ranks don't determine everything




In most situations, Shikamaru would be the strongest rookie of the sound 4 arc. That's like saying Batman isn't strong.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 5, 2015)

Gaara is stated to surpass any current Chunin. (And is therefore Jonin level.)


----------



## Violent by Design (Jan 5, 2015)

The Sand Siblings were held back intentionally, they were political tools used to sabatoage the Chuunin Exams. That is like citing that Kabuto was only a genin during that time frame, it makes no sense to mention people who are directly affected by collusion.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 5, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Another interesting thing about rank inequality is here:
> 
> Gaara is stated to surpass any current Chunin.
> 
> ...



no they stated his abilities must be the reason for not getting a scratch hence gaaras defensive oriented style..


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 5, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> no they stated his abilities must be the reason for not getting a scratch hence gaaras defensive oriented style..



Yes, but he surpassed any current Chuunin in a test that simulates war better than any other (a ninja free-for-all in a dangerous environment, and leading teams to a singular objective.)​


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 5, 2015)

1. They said "it must be his abilities". Basically saying yes, he's chunnin level (well maybe not even that, just not saying he's above chunnin level) but has special abilities.
2. Sasuke tried to beat Gaara and couldn't. Naruto had to.
3. A Jounin told Sasuke he was strong enough to be a chunnin, not strong enough to be jounin.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jan 5, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Shikamaru met the skill and power requirements to be a chunin.  Probably barely in the strength.  No one in Konoha nominates a team they think is too weak to hang with chunin candidates, because you can die in the chunin exam, and Leaf Jonin love their students.  Neji and some other elite rookies also met those power requirements.  What Shikamaru had over them was planning and leadership, and the ability to keep calm under pressure and keep his mind on the mission.
> 
> Having the chunin exams be a fight centric event set with other requirements shows us that power is important.  Almost central.  The heaven and earth scrolls were symbolic of a chunin being required to have the strength, but also the mind of a quality shinobi.  There will be times where a smart person like Sakura has the mind but not the strength, and a dude like Naruto will have chunin level strength, but not the intellect and capacity to lead and be responsible for a unit and a mission.  So there were better straight fighters, but not ones that hit both like Shikamaru did.
> 
> Lastly, Tsunade told Naruto to gather _talented_ genin.  Meaning, genin that are far and away above genin level, but due to circumstances like the chunin exam getting interrupted, and war, and her being a 2 day old Hokage who hasn't gone through all the notes from the last exam, aren't promoted yet.  The fact that she's telling Naruto to go find the choice exceptions from the rule, again, strengthens the notion that the rule has meaning.  Besides that, they were the exceptions for maybe a few months.  Sakura told Naruto they pretty much all made Chunin the very next time the exam was hosted, which means the system works pretty well even if you're unlucky, and run into an abnormally strong competition like the rookies did.




i completely agree with your assessment but in this paticular thread we are focusing more on the power aspect and not so much the leadership skills



in a battledome argument rank does not determine the outcome of a match which is what i was mostly trying to point out





Violent By Design said:


> In most situations, Shikamaru would be the strongest rookie of the sound 4 arc. That's like saying Batman isn't strong.



not in a battle dome fight he wouldn't


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Gaara is stated to surpass any current Chunin. (And is therefore Jonin level.)



"Current Chunin can't get through this forest without at least getting dirt on their clothes."

"Huh.  Must have something to do with his special abilities."

"Yeah that's probably it."

Lo and behold, Gaara has a special ability that lets him keep every speck of dirt and sand off his clothes, and protects him from scratches.

Strategos interpretation:  He is clearly above every Chunin.  He is therefore Jonin.

I can't say I agree with that logic for lots of reasons.  But the one I'll pick is that you can be the best of B Class, without automatically being A Class.  _Talented Genin_ is a phrase that exists in canon.  Exceptional Chunin wouldn't be surprising, since we also have Elite Jonin.  In real life, being the top scoring Elementary school student does not automatically make you a middle school student.  The best Amateur sportsman is not automatically at the level of a Professional.  Ect ect.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jan 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Relative to the demon brothers, I'd say CE Sasuke and CE Neji were _*way*_ above the power standard. They, along with Rock Lee or Gaara, would effortlessly defeat those two Chunin.


 Demon Brothers example again. Those two were outperformed by Sasuke(talented genin) in _one instance_ where they were facing a team. Not just Sasuke. Imagine that it was Sasuke alone walking past that poodle? Killed. Imagine it was Sasuke alone facing them in a proper fight? Dead. Kakashi dealt with theme effortlessly. Which made him look weak. But guess what - Kakashi can do the same to any Rookie. Zabuza himself attributed Demon Brother's failure to Kakashi being around. 




Strategoob said:


> Let's cut the bullshit though. Do you seriously believe, based the context and contents of the manga, that a 6-year-old Kakashi was more qualified than an 8-year-old Itachi to rank up?
> 
> Even if Itachi had no particular talent or reflex relative to his age (imo highly, highly unlikely,) and Kakashi was _way_ above him in those areas at age 6, the 3-tomoe Sharingan is too much.
> 
> KN0 was completely blitzing 2-tomoe Sasuke worse than Lee did prior to Sasuke's training up. Then the 3-tomoe came around and Sasuke was easily controlling the battle because of its insight.


 What is this. We are using context and portrayal now? How quickly can you jump around, Strat. Either way - my reasoning is in that post you quoted. We have no idea. Growth rate isn't linear. People train different abilities. And Sasuke's 3-tomoe boost could be attributed to his already excellent(relatively) physical speed and taijutsu. You can give Bell Test Sasuke 3-tomoe. Lee would still kick his teeth out. And without chakra-control training he would still struggle against Haku. 

Oh and while I was typing it. I remembered why Sharingan evolves. You know - emotional stuff. We know that chibi Itachi was traumatized by military conflict. Here you have your "mastered 3-tomoe". Which doesn't really say anything about Itachi's actual abilities. So yeah - 6 year old Kakashi could have been overall stronger than 8 year old Itachi. Depending on Itachi's growth. Kakashi got his fair share of hype and positive portrayal too you know. 





Strategoob said:


> Um, Sasuke had (an upper) 3.5 and Obito had a 3 like Wave Arc Sasuke. Obito was overall less proficient as a ninja than Wave Arc Sasuke, and significantly less skilled than CE Sasuke.


 CE Sasuke's speed is 3.0. And I vaguely remember already proving that to you. With you disagreeing. By being silly. DB1 with Sasuke's 3.0 includes entry for Edo Tensei. Which was after his vs Gaara fight(in case you forgot). 3.5 Sasuke is post SRA with CS2 and 3-tomoe. What those aren't supposed to count? Ask Kishi. 



Strategoob said:


> And I say upper 3.5 because Sasuke's speed was compared to Lee, who had a 4 in the databook. So it was nearly there. And Wave Arc Sasuke (and Obito) had a 3.0.


  Sasuke's 3.0 was compared to Lee. Which is one of the many reasons for DB stats being shite. Wave Arc Sasuke had less than 3.0. And he blitzed and was outright called superior to 4.0 Haku. DB stats.




Strategoob said:


> Primarily, that Mikoto said that Itachi was pushed through the academy in one year, in part, because "times were different."


 Different how? War-times? Post-war times? When this time changed from being different to being not-different? All the way up to Itachi's ANBU promotion? Or earlier. Or maybe she meant something different? 



Strategoob said:


> And secondarily, because there's just no way anybody should believe that 6-year-old Kakashi was more advanced and developed than CE Neji, CE Sasuke, Gaara, or Itachi with a mastered Sharingan.


 Why do ignore large parts of my posts? I stated clearly that CE Neji and people similar to him are chunin level in power. They weren't promoted because Exam was interrupted, Konoha not being in a need of front-line fighters and them lacking mind-set. Kakashi was in the same tier-bracket power-wise. Possibly lower. Maybe around as strong. I never said that he is stronger. Both PoW and myself were telling you that there are people stronger than their rank. No one disagrees with that. But in this particular case. We _know_ for a fact that Sasuke is Chunin-lvl(without using CS1). And Kakashi is Jonin-lvl(even before showing Chidori to Minato and getting Sharingan). 



Strategoob said:


> So my overall point is that rank is a completely worthless factor in Battledome threads. If standards don't change, then let's say because promotions have extremely little to do with fighting ability.


 Those ranks actually tell us more than Itachi's "facts" that you have been throwing around to support your views. 



Strategoob said:


> After all, the gap between CE Shikamaru and CE Neji is so large that Neji could defeat 5-10 Shikamarus. Similarly, Neji could also quite soundly defeat the Jonin Taiseki if Obito did.


 CE Neji would get absolutely raped by 5-10 CE Shikamarus. His limit is 3 probably. And for the fifth time. Neji is chunin-lvl. No one disagrees with that. Taiseki's defeat was fully circumstantial and matchup based. Is Neji is as bad match up for him as Obito? Yes. Would he beat him in the same situation? Yes. Would he beat him in a normal fight? Feat-wise - it is possible. Portrayal-wise(something that only applies to Itachi I know but let's try it for Taiseki also) - I'd favor Taiseki. I have my doubts about Jonin only knowing one tech. And I can remind you about no-named Jonin leading a bunch of no-named chunin and being too much for Neji-superior Naruto and chunin-lvl Shikamaru with intelligence above that rank - who can temporarily hold all those chunins in one place leaving Neji-superior Naruto to fight that no-named Jonin. They also had Sakura and a dog but whatever.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Demon Brothers example again. Those two were outperformed by Sasuke(talented genin) in _one instance_ where they were facing a team. Not just Sasuke. Imagine that it was Sasuke alone walking past that poodle? Killed. Imagine it was Sasuke alone facing them in a proper fight? Dead. Kakashi dealt with theme effortlessly. Which made him look weak. But guess what - Kakashi can do the same to any Rookie. Zabuza himself attributed Demon Brother's failure to Kakashi being around.



Yeah, they might beat that Sasuke by themselves. But CE Sasuke would demolish both of them just like Kakashi did, as they couldn't keep Wave Arc Sasuke  with no Sharingan from countering them.​


Alex Payne said:


> You can give Bell Test Sasuke 3-tomoe. Lee would still kick his teeth out.



I don't think so. Lee is a lot slower than KN0, just like Bell Test Sasuke is a lot slower than CE Sasuke. The 3-tomoe Sharingan is a much larger boost than no Sharingan and makes up that difference.​


Alex Payne said:


> Here you have your "mastered 3-tomoe". Which doesn't really say anything about Itachi's actual abilities. So yeah - 6 year old Kakashi could have been overall stronger than 8 year old Itachi.



It didn't say he "awakened" the full Sharingan. It said he mastered the Sharingan. Kakashi said against Zabuza that he hadn't mastered the Sharingan. So yeah, it does involve Itachi's abilities.

And given that Itachi was shown taking down a Sannin with his 3-tomoe not too long afterward, I'm inclined to believe that the Uchiha rumors of him mastering it at 8 weren't an exaggeration.

Moreover, Wave Arc Kakashi was shocked that Sasuke used a katon. Sasuke learned that Katon at 8 in trying to catch up to his brothers pace of growth. i.e. Itachi had Chunin-ish ninjutsu at least too.​


Alex Payne said:


> Sasuke's 3.0 was compared to Lee. Which is one of the many reasons for DB stats being shite. Wave Arc Sasuke had less than 3.0. And he blitzed and was outright called superior to 4.0 Haku. DB stats..



Even if you don't think Sasuke was 3.5 at that point, the 2-tomoe Sharingan would make up the 0.5 or 1 reflex difference with Lee. And Haku was stated by Zabuza to be holding back.

Edo Haku reacting to Gai and p2 Lee basically confirms as much.​


Alex Payne said:


> CE Neji would get absolutely raped by 5-10 CE Shikamarus. His limit is 3 probably.



I doubt that, as even weightless Lee couldn't take Neji in taijutsu, and Shikamaru is _*way*_ below 2-tomoe Wave Arc Sasuke in reflexes. It'd be a blitz beat down.​


Alex Payne said:


> And for the fifth time. Neji is chunin-lvl. No one disagrees with that.



There's a razor thin line between elite Chunin and scrub Jonin. We've seen the Demon Brothers and the 10 sound Chunin Shikamaru trapped. We've seen Taiseki and Gaiden Kakashi. 

CE Neji, CE Sasuke, CE Lee, SRA KN0, CE Gaara, Gaiden Obito, etc. are easily in the scrub Jonin tier rather than Chunin tier. Would any of them scratch Asuma? No, but neither would Gaiden Kakashi.

They would all, however, rape the Demon Brothers, and could likely rape more than two of those 10 sound Chunin that Shikamaru disabled and Asuma insta-blitzed. Hence scrub Jonin.​


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2015)

The Shikamarus would cast a shadow net to snare Neji while he's killing some Shikamarus.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The Shikamarus would cast a shadow net to snare Neji while he's killing some Shikamarus.



Maybe. I thought p1 Shikamaru was limited to linear attacks, and I imagined Neji basically being like Hidan dancing around it while simulataneously fighting and defending.

But with a speed gap worse than weighted Lee and Wave 2-tomoe Sasuke, resulting in Shikamaru's complete inability to react or even see. Neji's Byakugan would also make the chakra shadows obvious.​


----------

