# [Spoiler] Minato vs Healthy Itachi



## joshhookway (May 15, 2013)

Restrictions: Koto, Demon
SOM: IC
Knowledge none
Location: Sannin battlefield
Distance: 10 meters

We saw Minato get a new toy.


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## lathia (May 15, 2013)

New toy? What is that?


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## joshhookway (May 15, 2013)

S/T barrier


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2013)

...he's had Jikukan Kekkai since his flashback to the Attack of the Nine-Tails.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

Minato has always been stronger than Itachi, it's a fact since part 1. And I don't see any different now.


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## joshhookway (May 15, 2013)

I'm talking about toys as in feats for battledome.


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## FlamingRain (May 15, 2013)

Minato didn't get a new toy. . .

I was going to give this to Itachi, but no knowledge at 10 meters greatly favors Minato in this match.

The Fourth Hokage wins 9 times out of 10. The one off time being when Itachi, for some strange reason, decides to use _Tsukuyomi_ on someone he has no knowledge on.


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

As it always has, the outcome depends on whether or not Itachi can land Tsukuyomi.

With no knowledge for either side, that's very likely.

However, Itachi may end up getting blitzed with Hiraishin first if he fails to accurately assess the threat Minato poses early in the fight. Fortunately, Itachi's ability to use clones and seamlessly switch out with them during a fight significantly mitigate the chances that he will fall prey to this right off the bat.

It can go either way.



EDIT: Minato's new feat with the space-time barrier changes nothing. What's he going to do with it? Redirect one of Itachi's Goukakyuu? He could already do that with the barrier he used on the Kyuubi's Bijuudama. Itachi doesn't have any attacks large enough to warrant the use of a barrier on the scale we saw just this week. It would be a waste of chakra.


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## Bonly (May 15, 2013)

Minato already had shown a ST barrier when he sent Kurama's Bijuudama away, nothing new has been shown. As of now I still say that it comes down to who can outlast who if Itachi doesn't get blitzed before he learn the threat of Minato's speed.


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

Just realized SSM12 has Orochimaru above Itachi on his tier list.



Not even shocked anymore.


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## Kanki (May 15, 2013)

Today's chapter changes nothing. The only possible theory could be that Minato can somehow warp the SOT away, but surely that would create some kind of 'tug of war' type motion between the S/T jutsu and Susano'o itself.


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## joshhookway (May 15, 2013)

Today's release shows that Minato could instantly warp an object of any density or size. Minato could possibility warp Itachi's Susanoo.


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## FlamingRain (May 15, 2013)

Warping Susano'o would be an absolute nightmare.

Under these conditions it doesn't matter though, Susano'o won't come out before Itachi dies.


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## Dr. White (May 15, 2013)

This matchup is the single most balanced and 50/50 chancing matchup in the whole manga.

These two are to date the most efficient fighters outside of Madara/Nagato, and two of the smartest with only Kakashi comparing. Minato has Fuinjutsu/Rasengan to buffet his arsenal and Itachi has a slick base arsenal and MS Hax.

There are so may variables that could go into this match it's ridiculous. Honestly it be whoever struck the fastest, and hardest. Itachi's genjutsu poses a danger to Minato especially with no knowledge, and IMO he isn't fast enough to blitz Itachi right off the bat.

I can't conceive of a situation in which they didn't almost kill each other, or actually ended soloing each other.


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Today's release shows that Minato could instantly warp an object of any density or size. Minato could possibility warp Itachi's Susanoo.



As far as we have seen, Minato just erects the barrier in the path of a moving object. Itachi would have to be charging after Minato for this to work, but he could always simply go around the barrier. Unlike Bijuudama, Itachi can recognize an obstacle and avoid it.

Minato has no way of forcing a target through his space-time barrier. Unless he has Gamabunta tackle Susano'o or something.

But Gamabunta's likely to be killed if summoned to fight Itachi and I really don't think the intel (or lack thereof) warrants summoning him anyway. I think the match would be decided before it comes to that, since there is instant one-shot potential on both sides and that doesn't leave much opportunity for feeling each other out.


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## Dr. White (May 15, 2013)

Why is warping Susano so bad? It isn't like Uchiha get one Susano...lol

they are calling down protection from a diety, not wearing a suit of armor. The uchiha would simply recoat himself.


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Why is warping Susano so bad? It isn't like Uchiha get one Susano...lol
> 
> they are calling down protection from a diety, not wearing a suit of armor. The uchiha would simply recoat himself.



I think he means warping away Susano'o with Itachi inside.

Which would be a win via battlefield removal/ringout.


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## Dr. White (May 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I think he means warping away Susano'o with Itachi inside.
> 
> Which would be a win via battlefield removal/ringout.



Oh ok I guess that could happen.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> There are so may variables that could go into this match it's ridiculous. Honestly it be whoever struck the fastest, and hardest. Itachi's genjutsu poses a danger to Minato especially with no knowledge, and IMO he isn't fast enough to blitz Itachi right off the bat.
> 
> I can't conceive of a situation in which they didn't almost kill each other, or actually ended soloing each other.



1- Minato is a sensor, so Itachi's genjutsu is not a big deal. 
2- If Minato is not fast enough, I wonder who's fast enough?


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- Minato is a sensor, so Itachi's genjutsu is not a big deal.
> 2- If Minato is not fast enough, I wonder who's fast enough?



Do we have confirmation that Minato is a legit sensor-type shinobi or was he just "feeling" Naruto's immense ambient Kyuubi chakra like pretty much any shinobi seems to be capable of?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 15, 2013)

You guys don't get it.

He used the barrier while moving.  

That means that everyone who didn't believe he could move his hands and feat at the same time are now forced to deal with Minato's godstomping abilities to move fast and do stuff, instead of being forced to do one or the other on a feats only basis.


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## FlamingRain (May 15, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You guys don't get it.
> 
> He used the barrier while moving.
> 
> That means that everyone who didn't believe he could move his hands and feat at the same time are now forced to deal with Minato's godstomping abilities to move fast and do stuff, instead of being forced to do one or the other on a feats only basis.





Well from feats only. . .we haven't seen anything to contradict that claim. He could have stood still to form the barrier while he was off panel and then just started moving again.


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## Lurko (May 15, 2013)

Fight depends on how minato will dwal with genjustu .


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## Doctor Lamperouge (May 15, 2013)

I'm still not convinced that was an S/T Barrier. It could have been him just warping the bijuudama with FTG like he did to the Kyuubi, as the bijuudama simply vanished rather than passing into a barrier.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2013)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Fight depends on how minato will dwal with genjustu .


Not really. Minato's reflexes and speed are too fast for Itachi to catch. Case in point: Itachi, when he was forced to be blood lusted against KCM Naruto couldn't even use genjutsu due to his reflexes. Another point, for Madara of all people to put A in a genjutsu he had to physically restrain him during a melee with five Susano'o's, and only managed to land it when A was distracted by Tsunade's injuries. Another point, Obito's only method of winning against Minato was speed despite his considerable genjutsu prowess. 

Minato senses he's being influenced by a genjutsu, then he zips to another kunai and breaks it, then tosses another kunai at Itachi's blindspot and smashes a Rasengan into his back.


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

Are we assuming that "ordinary" shinobi like Minato can just put their hands on a Bijuudama without taking damage?

Tbh, I'm actually not sure. Bijuudama seem to be pretty harmless before they've detonated. I guess it's possible.

Though it's strange that nobody saw Minato do it, if that's the case.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Are we assuming that "ordinary" shinobi like Minato can just put their hands on a Bijuudama without taking damage?
> 
> Tbh, I'm actually not sure. Bijuudama seem to be pretty harmless before they've detonated. I guess it's possible.
> 
> Though it's strange that nobody saw Minato do it, if that's the case.


Um...Bijudama aren't 'harmless'. They burn through rock like its paper mache after just being shot. 

...you REALLY love downgrading Bijudama in general Niku.


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not really. Minato's reflexes and speed are too fast for Itachi to catch.



False.

Neither is too fast for Itachi; the only thing that would be too fast for Itachi would be Minato warping to him at point-blank with an attack, which is simply by virtue of eliminating the distance Minato has to travel.

B was able to threaten Minato with a mutual attack before he was able to teleport away. Itachi is at no major disadvantage as far as reflexes are concerned.



> Case in point: Itachi, when he was forced to be blood lusted against KCM Naruto couldn't even use genjutsu due to his reflexes.



Don't twist words to serve your point. You are using loaded language to force an interpretation out of that scenario that isn't necessarily true.

"Didn't" does not mean "couldn't." Itachi _didn't_ cast Genjutsu on KCM Naruto; no one ever said he was _incapable_ due to his "reflexes." 

He had no trouble putting B in Genjutsu.



> Another point, for Madara of all people to put A in a genjutsu he had to physically restrain him during a melee with five Susano'o's, and only managed to land it when A was distracted by Tsunade's injuries.



Itachi is not Madara. Madara was playing around. Also, A had knowledge; Minato doesn't.



> Another point, Obito's only method of winning against Minato was speed despite his considerable genjutsu prowess.



Again, Itachi is not Obito. Quit comparing him to people he's not.

Neither Madara nor Obito have Itachi's instant Tsukuyomi, as far as we are aware.



> Minato senses he's being influenced by a genjutsu, then he zips to another kunai and breaks it, then tosses another kunai at Itachi's blindspot and smashes a Rasengan into his back.



This doesn't work if Minato's caught in Tsukuyomi.

Furthermore, if Itachi gets a chance to witness Hiraishin, a simple tactic like this will never work on him; he'll be on his guard and watching every kunai Minato throws.


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Um...Bijudama aren't 'harmless'. They burn through rock like its paper mache after just being shot.
> 
> ...you REALLY love downgrading Bijudama in general Niku.



I was asking a question. Not that you'd know this, but that's generally what you're supposed to do when you don't know something. 

I'm fine with being corrected, but you don't have to accuse me of foul-play just for asking.

In any case, now I'll ask to see your evidence that Bijuudama "burns." Spare me the water works and just link me to a page or something.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> False.
> 
> Neither is too fast for Itachi; the only thing that would be too fast for Itachi would be Minato warping to him at point-blank with an attack, which is simply by virtue of eliminating the distance Minato has to travel.
> 
> B was able to threaten Minato with a mutual before he was able to teleport away. Itachi is at no major disadvantage as far as reflexes are concerned.


Minato is too fast for Itachi. He's the fucking fastest character in the entire manga and you're claiming Itachi can even compete there? Seriously?

And B only was able to threaten Minato with mutual death after he announced his presence to make A stand down.


> Don't twist words to serve your point.
> 
> "Didn't" does not mean "couldn't." Itachi _didn't_ cast Genjutsu on KCM Naruto; no one ever said he was _incapable_ due to his "reflexes."
> 
> He had no trouble putting B in Genjutsu. Quit dishonestly making shit up.


Itachi and Naruto met eye to eye and didn't even attempt a genjutsu. Despite Edo Tensei being programmed to attack with their best available means. 




> Itachi is not Madara. Madara was playing around. Also, A had knowledge; Minato doesn't.


Yeah, Madara is a lot, lot stronger but STILL needed a distraction and five Susano'o to land a genjutsu on A. I don't think he made his CLONES play around.

And Itachi also doesn't have knowledge either. Thus he won't know why Minato routinely spreads kunai around.


> Again, Itachi is not Obito. Quit comparing him to people he's not.
> 
> Neither Madara nor Obito have Itachi's instant Tsukuyomi, as far as we are aware.


Madara and Obito are _stronger than Itachi._ 'Instant', Minato's fast enough to avoid Mangekyo techniques. The points I'm making are _STRONGER UCHIHA HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO PUT SPEEDSTERS IN GENJUTSU WITHOUT MEETING CERTAIN CONDITIONS._ Your response: 'They aren't Itachi, since Itachi is Itachi, and he can do anything.'




> This doesn't work if Minato's caught in Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Furthermore, if Itachi gets a chance to witness Hiraishin, a simple tactic like this will never work on him; he'll be on his guard and watching every kunai Minato throws.


The simple fact: Minato is too fast for Tsukuyomi to be landed. And why? Itachi still has no knowledge on how Hiraishin works, no knowledge where Minato transports too, and is simply too slow to react to Minato in the first place.



Nikushimi said:


> I was asking a question. Not that you'd know this, but that's generally what you're supposed to do when you don't know something.
> 
> I'm fine with being corrected, but you don't have to accuse me of foul-play just for asking.
> 
> In any case, now I'll ask to see your evidence that Bijuudama "burns." Spare me the water works and just link me to a page or something.


Bijudama shoots, burns through the rock spikes. Bijudama melts through rocks without touching them. Bijudama blasts and melts through the ground after being shot.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Are we assuming that "ordinary" shinobi like Minato can just put their hands on a Bijuudama without taking damage?
> 
> Tbh, I'm actually not sure. Bijuudama seem to be pretty harmless before they've detonated. I guess it's possible.
> 
> Though it's strange that nobody saw Minato do it, if that's the case.




Didn't Minato use Hiraishin on the Kyuubi without touching it?

He could have done the same thing to the Juubi Bijuudama. It wasn't the S/T Barrrier...it happened too quickly.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Do we have confirmation that Minato is a legit sensor-type shinobi or was he just "feeling" Naruto's immense ambient Kyuubi chakra like pretty much any shinobi seems to be capable of?



1- He sensed that Iwa's fodder and even knew they were clones and how many they are.
2- he sensed Obito when he attacked him from his back.


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato is too fast for Itachi. He's the fucking fastest character in the entire manga and you're claiming Itachi can even compete there? Seriously?



Itachi is in the top 10 himself so I really don't see what the problem is. I still have no problem admitting that Minato would blitz Itachi with a point-blank attack using Hiraishin, so I don't see what you're bitching about.

However, that does NOT mean Minato is too fast for Itachi. It means if he can put a Hiraishin seal on or near Itachi and warp to him with an attack, he'll win (with no knowledge on either side). However, short of that, Itachi is going to hold his own just fine, and Minato is still in grave danger of getting hit with Tsukuyomi if he doesn't even know what it is.



> And B only was able to threaten Minato with mutual death after he announced his presence to make A stand down.



Irrelevant. The point is that B would have been fast enough to inflict a wound on Minato *before he could get away*. Disregarding the fact that Minato caught B off-guard due to his lack of intel on Hiraishin, B was fast enough to compete with Minato, so Itachi should be as well.



> Itachi and Naruto met eye to eye and didn't even attempt a genjutsu. Despite Edo Tensei being programmed to attack with their best available means.



So I guess Itachi's inferior reflexes also prevented him from using Susano'o, is that right? 

This is why you shouldn't just jump to conclusions when it suits you. No one EVER said Itachi's speed was the problem. He could've simply not used it because he was going in against two opponents and Sharingan Genjutsu is not meant for that. Or maybe it's simply because he wasn't in control of his body and the auto-pilot talisman didn't choose it. What gives you the basis for the assumption that it was because his reactions weren't good enough?

And I'd like for you to show me where it says Edo Tensei are programmed to attack with their "best available means."



> Yeah, Madara is a lot, lot stronger but STILL needed a distraction and five Susano'o to land a genjutsu on A. I don't think he made his CLONES play around.



The clones were blatantly weaker than the original Madara, anyway.

Not that it matters, as Madara apparently "failed" to get the likes of Mei, Gaara, Tsunade, and Oonoki in his Genjutsu as well. You gonna defend that on the basis of speed?



> And Itachi also doesn't have knowledge either. Thus he won't know why Minato routinely spreads kunai around.



Itachi doesn't have to spread kunai around to cast Genjutsu. Minato's in far more immediate danger if Itachi opts for Tsukuyomi before Minato has managed to deal with him.



> Madara and Obito are _stronger than Itachi._ 'Instant', Minato's fast enough to avoid Mangekyo techniques. The points I'm making are _STRONGER UCHIHA HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO PUT SPEEDSTERS IN GENJUTSU WITHOUT MEETING CERTAIN CONDITIONS._ Your response: 'They aren't Itachi, since Itachi is Itachi, and he can do anything.'



Madara failed to put Mei in Genjutsu. Obito failed to put Konan in Genjutsu until he had mortally wounded and exhausted her. Itachi put Orochimaru, Hebi Sasuke, and Killer B in Genjutsu.

There, I just flushed your entire argument down the toilet.



> The simple fact: Minato is too fast for Tsukuyomi to be landed. And why? Itachi still has no knowledge on how Hiraishin works, no knowledge where Minato transports too, and is simply too slow to react to Minato in the first place.



Minato has no knowledge of Tsukuyomi. He can't avoid it without knowing it exists, and it's too late by the time he gets to witness it firsthand.



Rocky said:


> Didn't Minato use Hiraishin on the Kyuubi without touching it?
> 
> He could have done the same thing to the Juubi Bijuudama. It wasn't the S/T Barrrier...it happened too quickly.



I thought Minato had to keep the Kyuubi pinned down with Gamabunta to do that.



TorJaN said:


> 1- He sensed that Iwa's fodder and even knew they were clones and how many they are.
> 2- he sensed Obito when he attacked him from his back.



1. Could you link me?
2. I thought that was just him sensing Obito's "presence" like every shinobi seems to be able to do to a certain extent (including Itachi).


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## Rocky (May 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I thought Minato had to keep the Kyuubi pinned down with Gamabunta to do that.




That was in order to keep the Nine-Tails from slaughtering Minato while he gathered Chakra, but Kishi just shat on that with the nigh-instantaneous warping of that massive Bijuudama before anyone in the alliance realized what the hell had happened. He shouldn't have had to gather Chakra for the warping of the Kyuubi.

And still, Minato wasn't touching Kurama when he warped him away, he was touching Bunta, who didn't get warped with them. Somehow, Minato warped the Kyuubi through Bunta....so the same should kinda suffice for Susano'o and Itachi....since removing the user from Susano'o has been proven a pretty effective counter.

After the heap of unthoughtful shit that was the Alliance collectively learning Doton regardless of affinity, I'm not going to bother bringing up inconsistencies. I'm just going to roll with the best feats they have....


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That was in order to keep the Nine-Tails from slaughtering Minato while he gathered Chakra, but Kishi just shat on that with the nigh-instantaneous warping of that massive Bijuudama before anyone in the alliance realized what the hell had happened. He shouldn't have had to gather Chakra for the warping of the Kyuubi.
> 
> And still, Minato wasn't touching Kurama when he warped him away, he was touching Bunta, who didn't get warped with them. Somehow, Minato warped the Kyuubi through Bunta....so the same should kinda suffice for Susano'o and Itachi....since removing the user from Susano'o has been proven a pretty effective counter.
> 
> After the heap of unthoughtful shit that was the Alliance collectively learning Doton regardless of affinity, I'm not going to bother bringing up inconsistencies. I'm just going to roll with the best feats they have....



Maybe Minato gathered chakra from off-panel while Juubi was chargin' its laz0r.

Or maybe he just executed the space-time barrier too fast for all the cannon fodder to notice.

EDIT: Lol, SSM12 is still typing. I can't wait to see this masterpiece.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi is in the top 10 himself so I really don't see what the problem is. I still have no problem admitting that Minato would blitz Itachi with a point-blank attack using Hiraishin, so I don't see what you're bitching about.


Itachi is on the bottom of the 'top 10'. We've seen how big a gap between A and Minato is despite A having the title of the second fastest in the world. 




> Irrelevant. The point is that B would have been fast enough to inflict a wound on Minato *before he could get away*. Disregarding the fact that Minato caught B off-guard due to his lack of intel on Hiraishin, B was fast enough to compete with Minato, so Itachi should be as well.


Bee has shown faster reflexes than Itachi. And more to the point, he only pulled out the sword _after_ Minato deliberately announced his presence. 




> So I guess Itachi's inferior reflexes also prevented him from using Susano'o, is that right?
> 
> This is why you shouldn't just jump to conclusions when it suits you. No one EVER said Itachi's speed was the problem. He could've simply not used it because he was going in against two opponents and Sharingan Genjutsu is not meant for that. Or maybe it's simply because he wasn't in control of his body and the auto-pilot talisman didn't choose it. What gives you the basis for the assumption that it was because his reactions weren't good enough?
> 
> And I'd like for you to show me where it says Edo Tensei are programmed to attack with their "best available means."


Itachi was forced to attack at his best against Naruto due to Edo Tensei's programming. That means, if genjutsu was the best means, he'd use it.

Itachi wasn't in control there, Kabuto was forcing him to attack to the best of his ability. The manga made it like that.


> The clones were blatantly weaker than the original Madara, anyway.


No, they really aren't. Clones are perfect copies of Madara, there is no reason why they'd be weaker.


> Not that it matters, as Madara apparently "failed" to get the likes of Mei, Gaara, Tsunade, and Oonoki in his Genjutsu as well. You gonna defend that on the basis of speed?


I think they were just going into bashing Mei, Gaara, Tsunade, and Onoki into paste more than using genjutsu. A was being difficult due to his speed.




> Itachi doesn't have to spread kunai around to cast Genjutsu. Minato's in far more immediate danger if Itachi opts for Tsukuyomi before Minato has managed to deal with him.


And since when does Itachi immediately op for Tsukuyomi? He always goes for the lesser techniques, taijutsu, ninjutsu, etc. before breaking out the big guns, even when he's forced to attack against his will. And why shouldn't Minato, whose faster than a guy who can avoid Tsukuyomi's opposite Amaterasu, be unable to avoid it? 




> Madara failed to put Mei in Genjutsu. Obito failed to put Konan in Genjutsu. Itachi put Orochimaru, Hebi Sasuke, and Killer B in Genjutsu.
> 
> There, I just flushed your entire argument down the toilet.


No, you didn't. Madara never tried to put Mei in a genjutsu. Obito DID put Konan in a genjutsu that _killed her._ Obito put a perfect Jinchuriki in a genjutsu that was like Kotoamatsukami for Christ's sake. 

Itachi put Orochimaru in a genjutsu? You mean a weakened Orochimaru who nearly broke it?

Hebi Sasuke broke all of Itachi's genjutsu attempts.

Killer B shattered Itachi's genjutsu.

Not a very good track record.


> Minato has no knowledge of Tsukuyomi. He can't avoid it without knowing it exists, and it's too late by the time he gets to witness it firsthand.


Minato had no knowledge of Kamui, he was able to escape it with ease. He had no knowledge of how exactly fast A was-he still avoided him with ease. And that's beside the point: Itachi has never opted to use the Mangekyo Sharingan immediately regardless of bloodlust.




> I thought Minato had to keep the Kyuubi pinned down with Gamabunta to do that.


That seemed to be just so Minato could gather the chakra needed.


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## Kanki (May 15, 2013)

Minato may not know about Tsukuyomi, but I'd be surprised if he didn't know not to look in his eyes. Similar to how all the Kages knew not to against Madara.

Also, if Minato and Itachi have a brief skirmish (like Itachi had with Naruto), would Itachi be able to notice or prevent Minato from putting his own sealing tag on Itachi? 

Then again if there's one character who'd find a way to use that to his advantage, it's Itachi. Though MS Izuna couldn't stop Tobirama.

This fight is dependent on so many things. Mainly plot no jutsu. It just depends entirely on which direction Kishi would want the fight to go in.

Things may chance in the coming chapters though, but I feel Minato was just used to make a cool intro in the chapter. Can't see him adding many new feats.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

> 1. Could you link me?
> 2. I thought that was just him sensing Obito's "presence" like every shinobi seems to be able to do to a certain extent (including Itachi).



due to Edo Tensei's programming.
due to Edo Tensei's programming.

2- I don't really think so. @.@


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## FlamingRain (May 15, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> Also, if Minato and Itachi have a brief skirmish (like Itachi had with Naruto), would Itachi be able to notice or prevent Minato from putting his own sealing tag on Itachi?
> 
> Then again if there's one character who'd find a way to use that to his advantage, it's Itachi. Though MS Izuna couldn't stop Tobirama.



With no knowledge of it beforehand, and considering that it only requires a brief touch that can be passed off as just a regular block or something, I doubt Itachi'd notice until he finds a kunai in his back.

Not too sure about Izuna and Tobirama though. Databook said Izuna had already given his eyes to Madara before he was killed, and since I really, _really_ doubt that was the first time he fought Tobirama with S/T ninjutsu, I'd say he probably had a defense against it when he had his eyes.


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## Kanki (May 15, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> With no knowledge of it beforehand, and considering that it only requires a brief touch that can be passed off as just a regular block or something, I doubt Itachi'd notice until he finds a kunai in his back.
> 
> Not too sure about Izuna and Tobirama though. Databook said Izuna had already given his eyes to Madara before he was killed, and since I really, _really_ doubt that was the first time he fought Tobirama with S/T ninjutsu, I'd say he probably had a defense against it when he had his eyes.



He gave him his eyes whilst on his death bed after losing to Tobirama, didn't he?


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## FlamingRain (May 15, 2013)

Is that how it happened? 

Maybe I need to try and look it up again, but I thought Izuna was killed after giving up his eyes.

That, and the Sharingan wasn't activated when he was fighting last time we saw him iirc.


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi is on the bottom of the 'top 10'. We've seen how big a gap between A and Minato is despite A having the title of the second fastest in the world.



As I recall, Minato only evaded A's attack by a razor-thin margin and chose to take B hostage to avoid giving A a chance to read his movements. I would not call that a "big" gap.



> Bee has shown faster reflexes than Itachi.



No he hasn't; Itachi was reacting to B perfectly, even while he was fighting KCM Naruto.



> And more to the point, he only pulled out the sword AFTER Minato deliberately announced his presence.



Which is irrelevant because I'm talking about Minato's *inability to get away* before B could stab him.



> Itachi was forced to attack at his best against Naruto due to Edo Tensei's programming.



The Raikage said the talisman is programmed to RESPOND to attacks on its own. Furthermore, he did NOT say it automatically uses the "best available means."



> That means, if genjutsu was the best means, he'd use it.



Which could simply mean Genjutsu wasn't the best means. Just like Amaterasu and Susano'o evidently weren't the best means, yet Taijutsu (somehow) was.

Use your head.



> Itachi wasn't in control there, Kabuto was forcing him to attack to the best of his ability. The manga made it like that.



Nowhere in the manga does it say Itachi was forced to attack to the best of his ability. Anyone who is familiar with the manga knows that _can't_ be true because Itachi didn't attack Naruto with anything _resembling_ his best. He didn't even have Mangekyou Sharingan activated, let alone any of its Jutsu. What he attacked Naruto with was more like the best of his Taijutsu ability, and even that is questionable since it doesn't seem like the talisman can replicate a shinobi's intuition and skill.



> No, they really aren't. Clones are perfect copies of Madara, there is no reason why they'd be weaker.



Split chakra is why they're weaker. We saw the original Madara break through Gaara's giant Karura sand wall and Oonoki's giant stone golem at the same time with one strike; Gaara, by himself, blocked FIVE of Madara's Susano'o clones with a basic sand wall.



> I think they were just going into bashing Mei, Gaara, Tsunade, and Onoki into paste more than using genjutsu. A was being difficult due to his speed.



So then it had nothing to do with speed and everything to do with Madara simply not choosing to use Genjutsu until he wanted to. It isn't applicable here.



> And since when does Itachi immediately op for Tsukuyomi? He ALWAYS goes for the lesser techniques, taijutsu, ninjutsu, etc. before breaking out the big guns, even when he's forced to attack against his will.



I never said he would resort to Tsukuyomi right away; I said Minato is in big trouble if/when he gets the chance to. Minato has the potential to kill him first here, but like I said, Itachi's ability to use clones and swap out with them so smoothly reduces the chance that it will happen.



> And why shouldn't Minato, whose faster than a guy who can avoid Tsukuyomi's opposite Amaterasu, be unable to avoid it?



Because he doesn't have knowledge of it, because Tsukuyomi doesn't physically manifest as something that can be dodged, and because Itachi is a clever bastard who won't simply wait for Minato to passively make eye-contact with him.



> No, you didn't. Madara never tried to put Mei in a genjutsu.



So then why should I care how strong Madara and Obito are? That's got nothing to do with their willingness to cast Genjutsu, which in turn has nothing to do with Itachi's strength or his willingness.



> Obito DID put Konan in a genjutsu that _killed her._



Obito only put Konan in Genjutsu after incapacitating her physically. And there's absolutely no evidence that the Genjutsu killed her.

Weren't you the one saying Tsukuyomi can't kill because it's a Genjutsu? Yeah, you're just full of consistency.

You disregard one ambiguous statement that a Genjutsu is capable of killing (Tsukuyomi) and blindly accept another (Obito's Genjutsu) just because it suits you. It's literally the same exact shit; there is no proof that the Genjutsu can kill yet you are ready to jump all over the first claim that sounds vaguely like it can, even though nobody ever explicitly said that it can.

You are the worst kind of hypocrite because you probably don't even realize you're a hypocrite.

Show me one single shred of evidence that Obito's Genjutsu killed Konan and that he didn't just stab or choke the life out of her after it was over instead. Go on. I'm waiting.



> Obito put a perfect Jinchuriki in a genjutsu that was like Kotoamatsukami for Christ's sake.



We don't even know if Obito was the caster. As far as we are aware, only Kotoamatsukami can do that and Obito doesn't have that Jutsu.

It's entirely possible that Danzou or even Shisui did Obito a favor and used Kotoamatsukami to brainwash Yagura with the command "Do whatever the masked guy says."



> Itachi put ORochimaru in a genjutsu? You mean a weakened



There is no evidence that Orochimaru was weakened.



> Orochimaru who nearly broke it?



Breaking it has nothing to do with getting caught. Don't change the subject.



> Hebi Sasuke broke all of Itachi's genjutsu attempts.



Don't change the subject.



> Killer B shattered Itachi's genjutsu.



Don't change the subject.



> Not a very good track record.



Breaking Genjutsu has nothing to do with getting caught. Minato won't be breaking Tsukuyomi, so *don't change the subject*.



> Minato had no knowledge of Kamui, he was able to escape it with ease. He had no knowledge of how exactly fast A was-he still avoided him with ease.



Kamui causes a visible distortion of the space that signals its effect. A has to physically move to attack. These things would alert Minato to warp away from them. Tsukuyomi can be cast like any regular Genjutsu with virtually no indication that it is being used; there is nothing for Minato to react to except Itachi mean-mugging him, and he's already caught at that point.



> And that's beside the point: ITACHI NEVER OPS FOR MANGEKYO SHARINGAN FIRST, REGARDLESS OF BLOODLUST.



Not saying he will.


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## FlamingRain (May 15, 2013)

Found it.

Databook 3 - Uchiha Izuna:


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Top section

Main text

His older brother, leader of the Uchiha losing his eyesight: a literal synonym of "ruin" for the clan. Izuna chose himself to present his own eyes, without hesitation, without a word. An act tantamount to suicide for an Uchiha, as they owe their fame to their doujutsu...

Caption

-The shinobi at the Uchiha founder's side. He sacrifices his light for the sake of his clan.

Picture comment

*-His eyes passed over to Madara, it doesn't take long before Izuna loses his life in battle...*
Madara: My (little) brother acknowledged it all. Offering his eyes was his own initiative.

Bottom section
Title (right side): Konoha Information Panels Collection (tn: Arbitrary translation. Alternatives are welcome)... Number Twenty-Eight

Main text

The Mangekyou Sharingan, a rarity even thoughout the Uchiha's history. The power it hides is frightening, thus so are the side-effects. As the caster keeps on using it, it takes away their eyesight. For those who master this powerful doujutsu, the apprehension of suddenly going blind is unfathomable. There is only one way to avoid the blindness, which is to steal a new Mangekyou sharingan from a member of the clan... The vile method employed by Madara. The Mangekyou Sharingan; an accursed doujutsu that cannot go without victims.

Caption

The Mangekyou Sharingan, a blood-stained destiny

Picture comments

-Both awakened to Mangekyou Sharingan, the siblings were prodigiously talented.

-Using his (little) brother's eyes, Madara obtained an eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. 




Sounds like he died in a battle _after_ the transplant.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Maybe Minato gathered chakra from off-panel while Juubi was chargin' its laz0r.
> 
> Or maybe he just executed the space-time barrier too fast for all the cannon fodder to notice.
> 
> EDIT: Lol, SSM12 is still typing. I can't wait to see this masterpiece.




Maybe, but Kishi kind of implied Minato had just arrived with Naruto's "Just in time!" comment. I don't really think it's too likely he was actually at the battlefield charging Chakra.

And all the Konoha fodder noticed the time where he had to use it to warp something with less volume than that Juubidama...so again, I don't think it's likely that barrier used. You saw what happened on panel, we would have seen something resembling the original barrier. Something. It wouldn't even take away from the surprise factor. Whether or not the Bijuu bomb disappeared or was intercepted by a random giant ass barrier honestly doesn't make much a difference.


Be nice to him Niku, he's still young.


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

So I like how SSM12 thinks Obito is capable of a Genjutsu that can kill as well as a Genjutsu identical to Kotoamatsukami yet somehow wasn't able to beat Minato because he just wasn't fast enough.

By the way, where were these almighty Genjutsu when Obito fought Naruto and co.? Or when he wanted to convince a tied-up Sasuke to join him? Or now that he's facing Kakashi one-on-one?

It's like a bad joke that keeps getting worse the more you actually _think_ about it. It's almost sad that anybody actually believes this.

Let me be perfectly blunt: No, Obito's Genjutsu cannot kill; Obito extracted info via hypnosis (like Itachi did to Kabuto) and then finished her off physically. No, Obito is not capable of Kotoamatsukami; he most likely received outside assistance from someone who could, or else had some other means of casting such a Genjutsu that he doesn't get to use normally. No, Obito did not fail to Genjutsu Minato simply because he wasn't fast enough; an alternative explanation is that he just doesn't have any Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi or Gamarinshou that could disable Minato's ability to escape with Hiraishin.



Rocky said:


> Be nice to him Niku, he's still young.



According to his profile, he's older than I am.

Makes me want to cry.

From laughing so hard.

I'm so glad he's back, though. I was getting sick of DaVizJizz.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm so glad he's back, though. I was getting sick of DaVizJizz.




 You're not a fan of his "Itachi one-shots Deidara & Sasori with Fire Ball Jutsu"....?


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## Nikushimi (May 15, 2013)

SSM12, I see you lurking.

I have to get up early tomorrow, so I gotta call it a night for now and get my rest.

I'll be back to verbally castrate your argument tomorrow as soon as I get the chance.

So _don't you fucking move_, okay little buddy? 



Rocky said:


> You're not a fan of his "Itachi one-shots Deidara & Sasori with Fire Ball Jutsu"....?



At least SSM12 doesn't know any better.

DaVizWiz is just rude.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> As I recall, Minato only evaded A's attack by a razor-thin margin and chose to take B hostage to avoid giving A a chance to read his movements. I would not call that a "big" gap.


Second time A tried attacking, Minato warped without him even knowing. He only got that close the first time since Minato didn't realize how fast he was exactly.

And no, he chose to take B hostage to force the retreat order that both sides had been given.


> No he hasn't; Itachi was reacting to B perfectly, even while he was fighting KCM Naruto.


Bee could react to Amaterasu's casting (Launching a punch to block) and escape from the Taka attack before anyone even Sasuke could react.




> Which is irrelevant because I'm talking about Minato's *inability to get away* before B could stab him.


How is it irrelevant? Minato, if he didn't talk, would have finished Bee off before Bee could react.





> The Raikage said the talisman is programmed to RESPOND to attacks on its own. Furthermore, he did NOT say it automatically uses the "best available means."


It implied it Nikushimi. Second Mizukage uses Liquification to escape, Third Raikage uses Nukite. Those were the best means of escape.




> Which could simply mean Genjutsu wasn't the best means. Just like Amaterasu and Susano'o evidently weren't the best means, yet Taijutsu (somehow) was.
> 
> Use your head.


It just happens that when Itachi is bloodlusted, he doesn't immediately go for what you want Nikushimi. He couldn't hold back.




> Nowhere in the manga does it say Itachi was forced to attack to the best of his ability. Anyone who is familiar with the manga knows that _can't_ be true because Itachi didn't attack Naruto with anything _resembling_ his best. He didn't even have Mangekyou Sharingan activated, let alone any of its Jutsu. What he attacked Naruto with was more like the best of his Taijutsu ability, and even that is questionable since it doesn't seem like the talisman can replicate a shinobi's intuition and skill.


Itachi had no choice. His body responds automatically. He was bloodlusted due to the talisman and Edo Tensei forcing him to attack against his will, but he STILL doesn't go with the means of attack that you want. 




> Split chakra is why they're weaker. We saw the original Madara break through Gaara's giant Karura sand wall and Oonoki's giant stone golem at the same time with one strike; Gaara, by himself, blocked FIVE of Madara's Susano'o clones with a basic sand wall.


No...it doesn't work like that. Each clone gets a set of chakra from Madara. Since Madara has unlimited chakra, all get the best amount of chakra and ability. Not only that, they're Mokuton Bushins which are superior to Kage Bushins.

No where, not once in the manga did imply that clones are weaker than the original.


> So then it had nothing to do with speed and everything to do with Madara simply not choosing to use Genjutsu until he wanted to. It isn't applicable here.


Except when we're talking about someone nearly as fast as Minato, it kinda does matter.




> I never said he would resort to Tsukuyomi right away; I said Minato is in big trouble if/when he gets the chance to. Minato has the potential to kill him first here, but like I said, Itachi's ability to use clones and swap out with them so smoothly reduces the chance that it will happen.


...how can Itachi get a clone off before Minato uses Hiraishin? 




> Because he doesn't have knowledge of it, because Tsukuyomi doesn't physically manifest as something that can be dodged, and because Itachi is a clever bastard who won't simply wait for Minato to passively make eye-contact with him.


...and Minato isn't a clever bastard who can avoid it? 




> So then why should I care how strong Madara and Obito are? That's got nothing to do with their willingness to cast Genjutsu, which in turn has nothing to do with Itachi's strength or his willingness.


Since two superior Uchiha to Itachi haven't been able to genjutsu as willingly on Kage level opponents, yet Itachi can do it with ease?




> Obito only put Konan in Genjutsu after incapacitating her physically. And there's absolutely no evidence that the Genjutsu killed her.
> 
> Weren't you the one saying Tsukuyomi can't kill because it's a Genjutsu? Yeah, you're just full of consistency.


The manga kind of implied that the genjutsu killed Konan though. Tsukuyomi was specifically said NOT to be able to kill, but whatever genjutsu Obito used was able to. 


> You disregard one ambiguous statement that a Genjutsu is capable of killing (Tsukuyomi) and blindly accept another (Obito's Genjutsu) just because it suits you. It's literally the same exact shit; there is no proof that the Genjutsu can kill yet you are ready to jump all over the first claim that sounds vaguely like it can, even though nobody ever explicitly said that it can.


...how is that ambiguous? Obito specifically states that his genjutsu would kill when it ends.

And the databook specifically says Tsukuyomi is incapable of killing, so its beside the point. 


> You are the worst kind of hypocrite because you probably don't even realize you're a hypocrite.
> 
> Show me one single shred of evidence that Obito's Genjutsu killed Konan and that he didn't just stab or choke the life out of her after it was over instead. Go on. I'm waiting.


Again, manga says Obito kills Konan with his genjutsu. She's even blacking out because of said genjutsu.




> We don't even know if Obito was the caster. As far as we are aware, only Kotoamatsukami can do that and Obito doesn't have that Jutsu.
> 
> It's entirely possible that Danzou or even Shisui did Obito a favor and used Kotoamatsukami to brainwash Yagura with the command "Do whatever the masked guy says."


...Obito was in control of Yagura. We had a direct comparison of the genjutsu that was used on Yagura to Kotoamatsukami. What more do you need? Thats what the manga said dude.




> There is no evidence that Orochimaru was weakened.


Other than sweating, only attacking Itachi to steal his body (whenever that happens, Orochimaru is severely weakened) and didn't even use the snake method of avoiding genjutsu despite clearly knowing it from Sasuke's talk of it?




> Breaking it has nothing to do with getting caught. Don't change the subject.


It kind of does when it comes to intent.




> Don't change the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Minato won't be caught in genjutsu period.




> Kamui causes a visible distortion of the space that signals its effect. A has to physically move to attack. These things would alert Minato to warp away from them. Tsukuyomi can be cast like any regular Genjutsu with virtually no indication that it is being used; there is nothing for Minato to react to except Itachi mean-mugging him, and he's already caught at that point.


Tsukuyomi seems to give an effect before being used like any other Mangekyo jutsu. Minato has the means of avoiding Mangekyo techniques. Not seeing why its impossible for him to avoid Tsukuyomi.


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## Nikushimi (May 16, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Second time A tried attacking, Minato warped without him even knowing. He only got that close the first time since Minato didn't realize how fast he was exactly.
> 
> And no, he chose to take B hostage to force the retreat order that both sides had been given.



A was reading Minato's movements and keeping track of all his kunai to predict where he would reappear. Minato apparently sensed this and went after B instead.

Regardless, it was clear from A's initial attempt that the difference between them was small. Minato barely avoided the attack and there's a good chance A would've been able to hit him if he predicted correctly the next time.



> Bee could react to Amaterasu's casting (Launching a punch to block) and escape from the Taka attack before anyone even Sasuke could react.



Itachi could react faster than Sasuke, too; he demonstrated that during their fight with Kabuto.

Itachi kept up with B perfectly, even when he was busy dealing with Naruto. I don't see how you can call B faster than him when Itachi was at absolutely no disadvantage.



> How is it irrelevant? Minato, if he didn't talk, would have finished Bee off before Bee could react.



It's irrelevant because I'm talking about Minato's ability to escape B's attack, which- evidently -he couldn't.

Also, if B had known Minato could place Hiraishin seals anywhere, he might've at least had the presence of mind to _check_ his tentacle. I'll give Minato credit for pulling that one off, but you can't say that B's lack of speed was the reason he got blindsided.



> It implied it Nikushimi. Second Mizukage uses Liquification to escape, Third Raikage uses Nukite. Those were the best means of escape.



*In your opinion, not in reality*. Nowhere is "the best means" implicit in that statement; the Raikage just says the talisman is programmed to react automatically, which seems to be in whatever way Kishimoto dictates for the situation.



> It just happens that when Itachi is bloodlusted, he doesn't immediately go for what you want Nikushimi. He couldn't hold back.



So I point out that Itachi didn't use Susano'o and you say "It's because he doesn't immediately go for what you want."

You point out that Itachi didn't use Genjutsu and you say "It's because he didn't have the reactions to pull it off."

If you don't see the double-standard here, you're an idiot, point-blank.

Now let me tell you what happened: Edo Itachi attacked with Taijutsu. Not Susano'o, not Genjutsu- *Taijutsu*. There was no discernable ATTEMPT at anything else.



> Itachi had no choice. His body responds automatically. He was bloodlusted due to the talisman and Edo Tensei forcing him to attack against his will, but he STILL doesn't go with the means of attack that you want.



...You are the most frustratingly single-minded person I have ever met on these forums.

It's not about "what I want." Absolutely nothing says Itachi was bloodlusted. You are the only one saying that. As far as the manga says, he was forced to attack against his will, nothing more.

You can't say Itachi was "bloodlusted" (i.e., going all out) and then shoot down the obvious counter-argument against that by saying "He just doesn't attack how you want them to." Either Itachi was going all-out or he wasn't.

I'll use your own words against you: Itachi not using Genjutsu just shows that he doesn't attack the way you want him to. It has nothing to do with his reactions.



> No...it doesn't work like that. Each clone gets a set of chakra from Madara. Since Madara has unlimited chakra, all get the best amount of chakra and ability.



Madara's chakra restores naturally as a result of Edo Tensei; it is not simply limitless. There is a set maximum amount he is capable of accessing, so dividing that and allocating it to each clone weakens them proportionally, as it does with any ordinary clone user.



> Not only that, they're Mokuton Bushins which are superior to Kage Bushins.



Moku Bunshin are only superior because they do not disperse after taking a single hit.



> No where, not once in the manga did imply that clones are weaker than the original.



Zabuza stated explicitly that his Mizu Bunshin were weaker than himself. Kisame stated explicitly that the Shouten copies were weaker than the originals _specifically_ because of the amount of chakra they possessed. We've seen Naruto get entire armies of himself fodderized.



> Except when we're talking about someone nearly as fast as Minato, it kinda does matter.



No, it doesn't fucking matter. Madara arbitrarily deciding "I don't want to bother using Genjutsu on this woman even though I could do it easily" has absolutely no bearing on Itachi vs. Minato. Speed isn't even relevant, considering Madara's obviously faster than Mei.



> ...how can Itachi get a clone off before Minato uses Hiraishin?



Minato has to throw a kunai or place a seal to use Hiraishin. Itachi's seal speed is exceptionally fast and this has been shown to hold true particularly with his deployment of clones. Minato won't be doing anything before Itachi has had *ample* opportunity to switch out with one. Not saying he necessarily will, but you're delusional if you think he can't. Minato is not THAT fast.



> ...and Minato isn't a clever bastard who can avoid it?



Both have top-tier intelligence. Denying that Itachi has any sort of shot at getting the better of Minato just shows how apallingly one-sided and unimaginitive you are. Sasuke was a full tier below Deidara in the intelligence department and totally outwitted him; even guys less crafty than Itachi and Minato are more than capable of employing tactics to throw them off. I know from personal experience that you have no problem asserting this when Itachi's competence is on the chopping block, so pull your head out of Minato's ass and stop denying that he's vulnerable too.



> Since two superior Uchiha to Itachi haven't been able to genjutsu as willingly on Kage level opponents, yet Itachi can do it with ease?



He has already done it with ease: Orochimaru, Sasuke, and Killer B, each of whom rival the stronger of those Kage in power. Itachi did *three times* what Madara and Obito failed to.

Your argument that speed is the problem has already been thoroughly dismantled. Madara obviously did not fail to Genjutsu Mei because he lacked speed and your argument that Obito failed to Genjutsu Minato for this reason has yet to be substantiated.

The far more likely and far less assumptive explanation is simply character or plot-induced stupidity, i.e., "Kishimoto just didn't have them try." There could be various reasons, like they thought it wouldn't work, or they just wanted to try alternative means that they preferred. Whatever the case, the most important fact here remains that what Obito and Madara *chose* to do has nothing to do with Itachi. Itachi doesn't have any intel here, so as far as he's concerned, Genjutsu is probably going to be his first option.


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## Nikushimi (May 16, 2013)

> The manga kind of implied that the genjutsu killed Konan though.



No it didn't; to "imply" means to convey a message through the particular wording of a statement in a way that is unambiguous.

If Obito had said "This Genjutsu is capable of killing, so this is the end for you," THAT would be an implication.

What Obito said was "When this Genjutsu ends, so will your life," which could simply mean that he was going to kill her once he was done extracting information from her, which is the more likely answer given what we know about Obito's Genjutsu capabilities so far.



> Tsukuyomi was specifically said NOT to be able to kill,



This is false; Kakashi implied (yes, IMPLIED; Remember that word?) that Tsukuyomi can kill. Either that, or he was talking about something else Itachi could've done to him.

The databook entry says "attacks in a Genjutsu can't kill," but goes on to state that Tsukuyomi does an unfathomable amount of mental damage to compensate, which doesn't really say anything about Tsukuyomi's killing potential in the real world.

Look, unlike you, I've matured a bit. I grow. I change my opinions and realize I was wrong and I try to better myself. Those are all things you probably can't understand.

I can admit that there is no evidence that Tsukuyomi is capable of killing. Kakashi's statement is the only suggestion of that and it's possible that he wasn't even talking about Tsukuyomi.

However, what you are doing is the same kind of stubborn denial I used to be guilty of. You are so fixated on the need to be right that you haven't even stopped to consider the possibility that you are completely wrong.



> but whatever genjutsu Obito used was able to.
> 
> ...how is that ambiguous? Obito specifically states that his genjutsu would kill when it ends.



No he doesn't; he says Konan's life will end. He does NOT say the Genjutsu itself would be the cause. He had her by the throat and there was nothing stopping him from simply choking her. Or doing anything else to her, really.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Genjutsu killed her.



> And the databook specifically says Tsukuyomi is incapable of killing, so its beside the point.



No it doesn't. It says attacks in the mental plane have no power to kill.

Which you are openly denying anyway with your asinine refusal to believe that anything except Obito's Genjutsu killed Konan.



> Again, manga says Obito kills Konan with his genjutsu. She's even blacking out because of said genjutsu.



We have seen lots of people black out from Genjutsu. That doesn't mean she was killed by it.

The manga says no such thing. You are imposing that interpretation when it isn't called for.



> ...Obito was in control of Yagura. We had a direct comparison of the genjutsu that was used on Yagura to Kotoamatsukami. What more do you need? Thats what the manga said dude.



The manga said Obito was the one controlling Yagura from the shadows. It does NOT say he was the one who cast Kotoamatsukami on Yagura.



> Other than sweating,



He was subjected to Itachi's Genjutsu, and a particularly painful one at that.

Everyone sweats; it's not an indication of weakness. It's a normal physiological phenomenon.



> only attacking Itachi to steal his body (whenever that happens, Orochimaru is severely weakened)



Proof that this is why Orochimaru attacked Itachi?

You're making assumptions again.



> and didn't even use the snake method of avoiding genjutsu despite clearly knowing it from Sasuke's talk of it?



Or maybe he just didn't get the chance. Doesn't matter because we didn't see, but the point is Itachi caught him.

Though I see you have no shortage of excuses to make for that, in your shameless crusade to vindicate Minato.

By the way: blondie doesn't have the luxury of that "snake method." Or any intel whatsoever.



> It kind of does when it comes to intent.



It has absolutely nothing to do with getting caught.



> Minato won't be caught in genjutsu period.



Without knowledge, that is very unlikely. He will probably get caught in Itachi's regular Genjutsu right away, escape it, and then continue fighting. Then it simply comes down to whether or not Itachi can get him with Tsukuyomi, which Minato won't know to anticipate (and he may have his guard down after countering Itachi's regular Genjutsu).

I'm not saying Minato will definitely eat Tsukuyomi and die. What I am saying is you are out of your mind for not even considering it a possibility in a no-knowledge scenario.



> Tsukuyomi seems to give an effect before being used like any other Mangekyo jutsu. Minato has the means of avoiding Mangekyo techniques. Not seeing why its impossible for him to avoid Tsukuyomi.



What effect does Tsukuyomi give? As far as we have seen, the only indication seems to be Itachi closing and opening his eye. We didn't even see this happen when he fought Hebi Sasuke and he still managed to cast it.

Look, anyone with eyelids and prior knowledge can avoid Tsukuyomi; that isn't the issue. The issue is that Minato does not know about Tsukuyomi. And even if he did, he couldn't fight with his eyes closed, which means he would be vulnerable at all times.


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## IchLiebe (May 16, 2013)

I wasn't going to post but hell Nikushimi got banned so I might as well.

No knowledge so they both go to their usual attack Genjutsu vs Speed. Can't genjutsu what you can't see so blitz and Itachi's headless.

Minato 10/10 no dif.


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## tanman (May 16, 2013)

Nothing has changed. 
If you thought Minato would win before, you still think so.
If you thought Itachi would win before, you still think so.


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## Sans (May 17, 2013)

Actually I went from Itachi to Minato.


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## Ersa (May 17, 2013)

Edo Itachi >=< Minato > Living Itachi. 

Nothing has changed in my book, Minato wears Itachi down and beats him high difficulty.


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## tanman (May 17, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Actually I went from Itachi to Minato.



Really? Based on that one feat when Itachi has no attack at all like Bijudama?
One might be able to extrapolate this feat to Amaterasu, but that seems a whole lot more difficult to port head on than a bijudama viewed as it's aimed towards someone else.


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## Rain (May 17, 2013)

genjutsu is a game-breaker here. You should restrict it.

But even then, Itachi skill with kunai far surpasess everyone's else, including Minato.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2013)

Rain said:


> genjutsu is a game-breaker here. You should restrict it.
> 
> But even then, Itachi skill with kunai far surpasess everyone's else, including Minato.


No, it doesn't. And genjutsu can't land a target as fast as Minato.


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## Dr. White (May 17, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, it doesn't. And genjutsu can't land a target as fast as Minato.



IC Minato looked a man who he though may have been Madara Uchiha directly in the face, and could not blitz Obito using anything under Hirashin V2. Minato is not going to BAM flash at the start leaving him extremely susceptible to genjutsu throughout the match. 

Itachi is undoubtedly the best weapons handler in the manga, showing superb Aim, concentration and throwing skill at age 13, Kenjutsu skill at 13, taking out Nagato's double vision with simple Kunai, and of course taking Kusanagi from Kabuto, and being able to fight CqC with him(sage enhanced) via kenjutsu


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## joshhookway (May 17, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> IC Minato looked a man who he though may have been Madara Uchiha directly in the face, and could not blitz Obito using anything under Hirashin V2. Minato is not going to BAM flash at the start leaving him extremely susceptible to genjutsu throughout the match.
> 
> Itachi is undoubtedly the best weapons handler in the manga, showing superb Aim, concentration and throwing skill at age 13, Kenjutsu skill at 13, taking out Nagato's double vision with simple Kunai, and of course taking Kusanagi from Kabuto, and being able to fight CqC with him(sage enhanced) via kenjutsu



Itachi never fought close combat with Sage Mode Kabuto.


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## Dr. White (May 17, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Itachi never fought close combat with Sage Mode Kabuto.



Uhm yes he did? Itachi was fast enough to
A. Snatch Kusanagi from Kabuto before he could react.
B. Clone Feinted him despite sensing
C. Cut his horn off before he could dodge(had Itachi not been setting Izanami he could have struck anywhere, or used a more dangerous jutsu, ala Amaterasu) 

Then again Kabuto came charging in with his Sage enhanced Scalpel which was blocked solely by Itachi. 

I count that as a CqC engagement.


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## IchLiebe (May 17, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Uhm yes he did? Itachi was fast enough to
> A. Snatch Kusanagi from Kabuto before he could react.
> B. Clone Feinted him despite sensing
> C. Cut his horn off before he could dodge(had Itachi not been setting Izanami he could have struck anywhere, or used a more dangerous jutsu, ala Amaterasu)
> ...



A. Never happened. His crow bunshin knocked the sword of out his hand. No cqc there.
B. We don't know if sensing is passive or if he has to use it. Most likely he has to use it like every other sensor in the verse. So that clone feint means nothing because we don't know if it tricked his sensing because we don't know if he was using it.
C. Kabuto said he forgot about the horn being there meaning he could have dodged it if he remembered he had the horn.

Blocking a hand with a sword isn't impressive.


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## Sans (May 17, 2013)

tanman said:


> Really? Based on that one feat when Itachi has no attack at all like Bijudama?
> One might be able to extrapolate this feat to Amaterasu, but that seems a whole lot more difficult to port head on than a bijudama viewed as it's aimed towards someone else.



Portrayal. 

One kunai flickers to the ground. The Alliance crushing jutsu is neutralised. Minato flickers onto the battlefield.

Itachi couldn't have done that, and his own portrayal isn't so effortless.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, it doesn't. And genjutsu can't land a target as fast as Minato.



And as per portrayal again, Kabuto specifically preparing counters to Itachi's genjutsu shows that it is a threat to every high tier.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2013)

And Kabuto has a method to escape eyesight since when? Much less to the point, Minato went eye for eye with a stronger Uchiha, yet speed was said Uchiha's only method of fighting him.


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## Sans (May 17, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Kabuto has a method to escape eyesight since when? Much less to the point, Minato went eye for eye with a stronger Uchiha, yet speed was said Uchiha's only method of fighting him.



He prepared methods to fight with his eyes closed, and cited wanting to avoid Itachi's genjutsu.

Oh right, Obito didn't use genjutsu. Well, the only time Obito has used genjutsu in a battle was after he had totally subdued Konan. He didn't try to use it on Minato, he didn't try to use it on Naruto, or Gai, or Kakashi, or Kirabi.

So let me not change my opinion on Itachi, based on someone who doesn't use genjutsu.


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## Bkprince33 (May 18, 2013)

Lol stronger ? Yes obito is overall stronger then itachi with kamui hax, moukuton, and rinnengon.


Genjutsu wise? Fuck no lol how is obito fight with the fourth remotely relevant to itachi using a genjutsu on him?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 19, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Lol stronger ? Yes obito is overall stronger then itachi with kamui hax, moukuton, and rinnengon.
> 
> 
> Genjutsu wise? Fuck no lol how is obito fight with the fourth remotely relevant to itachi using a genjutsu on him?


Obito could control a perfect Jinchruiki for years via genjutsu, and it was compared to Kotoamatsukami. He has access to Izanagi and Izanami too, while Itachi can only perform the latter. And could control Biju as easily as Madara.

So yes, Obito is superior to Itachi in terms of genjutsu.


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## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Genjutsu wise? Fuck no lol how is obito fight with the fourth remotely relevant to itachi using a genjutsu on him?



Do you mean controlling Kurama, 6 beasts at the same time and the 10tails. is not enough?


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## eyeknockout (May 19, 2013)

minato is known to blitz people he has no knowledge of, itachi is known to instantly genjutsu people he has no knowledge of. from 10 meters it's a complete toss up

basically, every answer in this thread is either super biased or fanboying. there is no way to tell unless you somehow calculated whether minato's speed is greater than itachi's genjutsu speed


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## Bkprince33 (May 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Obito could control a perfect Jinchruiki for years via genjutsu, and it was compared to Kotoamatsukami. He has access to Izanagi and Izanami too, while Itachi can only perform the latter. And could control Biju as easily as Madara.
> 
> So yes, Obito is superior to Itachi in terms of genjutsu.



Off panel feats isn't saying much, for one we don't know how strong the mizukage genjutsu defenses are, and may I have a scan of obito genjutsu being compared to koto.


Scans of obito having access to izanami.



You do realize obito controlled the biju with the six path of pain Jutsu right? Where comparing obito when he fought against the fourth to itachi.


During the war arch it was though that itachi had control over all the ninja zestu posed as, but concluded not even he could control so many ninja over such a great distance, that's how powerful itachi genjutsu is hyped to be, not to mention he has the ability to one shot ppl with it Unlike obito.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> minato is known to blitz people he has no knowledge of, itachi is known to instantly genjutsu people he has no knowledge of. from 10 meters it's a complete toss up
> 
> basically, every answer in this thread is either super biased or fanboying. there is no way to tell unless you somehow calculated whether minato's speed is greater than itachi's genjutsu speed



Itachi's genjutsu work only in 5m or less.


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## Veo (May 20, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Just realized SSM12 has Orochimaru above Itachi on his tier list.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even shocked anymore.



It's called _personal opinion_, deal with it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 20, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> As it always has, the outcome depends on whether or not Itachi can land Tsukuyomi.
> 
> With no knowledge for either side, that's very likely.
> 
> ...



What he said. 

Its either genjutsu GG or bamflash GG. 

For me this is a fight that can go eitherway. This fight isn't about power. It is more about intelligence. Neither party can outmuscle the other in a direct clash, their skillset isn't designed for that.

So I'd say this would be purely circumstantial.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2013)

It's already stated that Minato 1 of the 4 strongest edo and that's included Itachi
honestly it's obvious that Minato > Itachi from the first chapter.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 20, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> It's already stated that Minato 1 of the 4 strongest edo and that's included Itachi
> honestly it's obvious that Minato > Itachi from the first chapter.



Which means Nagato < Hiruzen? Madara < Tobirama? 

This is endless debate because both Itachi and Minato have 50/50 chance......


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## Trojan (May 20, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Which means Nagato < Hiruzen? Madara < Tobirama?
> 
> This is endless debate because both Itachi and Minato have 50/50 chance......



Hiruzen is even stronger than Hashi (he's the strongest Hokage) so I don't see the
problem with him being stronger than Nagato! 

and for Tobirama I don't know what to say honestly since I consider him weaker than kin. But, well
that's what it said. Deal with it! 

the only one that have close Percent with Itachi is Jman it's not even equal like
60% to Jman and 40% to Itachi. (Itachi admit that Jman stronger than him)

Anyway, you are right. This is endless, perhaps Minato in his current fight will show more
to put an end to this.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 20, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> It's already stated that Minato 1 of the 4 strongest edo and that's included Itachi
> honestly it's obvious that Minato > Itachi from the first chapter.



Nah, Minato isn't stronger than Madara. Neither is Hiruzen or Tobirama.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah, Minato isn't stronger than Madara. Neither is Hiruzen or Tobirama.



I don't consider them stronger than current Madara (even hashi)
but they are stronger than Itachi for sure.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Well, I've changed my views. Not based on feats, but general level.

Before, Itachi won as he was a great match-up, but with Minato stopping the most powerful attack ever with a Kunai.....I'm starting to think he's on a bit of a different level than Itachi.

On feats though, there's an argument for either side; everything is dependent on circumstances.


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## Okodi (May 20, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Obito could control a perfect Jinchruiki for years via genjutsu, and it was compared to Kotoamatsukami. He has access to Izanagi and Izanami too, while Itachi can only perform the latter. And could control Biju as easily as Madara.
> 
> So yes, Obito is superior to Itachi in terms of genjutsu.


Hmmmm... 


What if Yagura actually had some Wood up his a**


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## Nikushimi (Jun 8, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> A. Never happened. His crow bunshin knocked the sword of out his hand. No cqc there.



That is CQC if it knocked the sword out of his hand.



> B. We don't know if sensing is passive or if he has to use it. Most likely he has to use it like every other sensor in the verse. So that clone feint means nothing because we don't know if it tricked his sensing because we don't know if he was using it.



He also has generic Sage Mode sensing as well as thermal and olfactory sensing thanks to the snakes.



> Blocking a hand with a sword isn't impressive.



"Impressive" is a relative assessment. If you take it for granted that Itachi is about as fast as Kabuto, then yes, I guess it's not a very impressive feat.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Kabuto has a method to escape eyesight since when? Much less to the point, Minato went eye for eye with a stronger Uchiha, yet speed was said Uchiha's only method of fighting him.



Nobody said speed was Obito's only method of fighting Minato. You are the only one who has said that.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Obito could control a perfect Jinchruiki for years via genjutsu, and it was compared to Kotoamatsukami.



Nobody said that was Obito's Genjutsu.



> He has access to Izanagi and Izanami too, while Itachi can only perform the latter.



There is no evidence that Obito can use Izanami.



> And could control Biju as easily as Madara.



Which means dick-all because we have no way to quantify that relative to Itachi.



> So yes, Obito is superior to Itachi in terms of genjutsu.



No, he isn't. He may have stronger Genjutsu power in general, but that does not make him a better caster/user.



Veo said:


> It's called _personal opinion_, deal with it.



It's also called being explicitly wrong.



TorJaN said:


> the only one that have close Percent with Itachi is Jman it's not even equal like
> 60% to Jman and 40% to Itachi. (Itachi admit that Jman stronger than him)



Itachi never admitted any such thing, and why would he? He's blatantly stronger than Jiraiya.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, it doesn't. And genjutsu can't land a target as fast as Minato.



Genjutsu landed on A, who is faster than Minato if we're talking about actual movement. It's all about making eye-contact, and if that happens, Minato's as boned as anybody else who doesn't have a high-level Doujutsu.


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2013)

No knowledge, distance 10m, & Itachi not having Edo buffs? Itachi gets blitzed. Fricken Raiton Armor Raikage got blitz'd to the point of being unable to react, so unless Itachi is suppose to be faster than Raiton Armor Raikage, Minato takes this quite handily. Hell given how much Minato left the other Hokage in the dust with his Shunshin, i'm not sure FTG is even necessary, but ether way Minato wins with the blitz. 

Itachi needs at least knowledge of Minato's speed &/or Edo buffs to stand a chance here.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 8, 2013)

Minato never blitzed the Raikage except when the latter had no knowledge of his space-time Jutsu, and please tell me you're joking with the whole "Minato may not even need Hiraishin" comment; Minato would get fucked in the ass like a rented mule here if he didn't have Hiraishin.

Also, KCM Minato remains completely featless. So as tempting as it may be to just assume he stomps the everloving shit out of Itachi, it would be better to wait and see what he can actually do first. If all it does is boost his physical stats and increase the power of his Rasengan, I wouldn't call this a match a stomp.


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Minato never blitzed the Raikage except when the latter had no knowledge of his space-time Jutsu.


And here the OP has also given Itachi no knowledge. 



> and please tell me you're joking with the whole "Minato may not even need Hiraishin" comment


No i'm not joking. 

Minato out-sped the Hokages in Shunshin, by far. This is a complete ridiculous feat considering the Hokages contained Hashigodarama who had the speed to keep up with Madara. Madara who has at least equivalent speed feats to Itachi (reacting to Raikage), if not superior depending on how one rates Madara feat of reacting to Tsunade's attack despite her being Mabui teleported right in front of his face. 

So if Minato is much faster with Shunshin than a guy around Itachi's level of speed, I do not rule out the possibility that he could blitz an Itachi who has zero knowledge of him at 10m with Shunshin.



> Also, KCM Minato remains completely featless. So as tempting as it may be to just assume he stomps the everloving shit out of Itachi, it would be better to wait and see what he can actually do first.


This isn't about KCM Minato, so I'm not sure why he's brought up. But if we were to supplement Base Minato in this scenario with KCM Minato, I have zero doubt that KCM Minato would blitz Itachi, mostly because Base Minato would blitz Itachi in a 10m/zero knowledge scenario. So whether it's base or KCM it's pointless in this thread. 



> If all it does is boost his physical stats and increase the power of his Rasengan, I wouldn't call this a match a stomp.


This match is a stomp irregardless since the conditions vastly favor Minato. 

As for general speculation on KCM Minato, I'm not speculating on what his abilities are going to be, however I will say from a story perspective he should be well above any incarnation of Itachi at this point. From my perspective KCM Minato > Edo Minato > Minato > or = Edo Itachi > Healthy Itachi > I'll Itachi.

But even if we go by Itachi-fan logic where Minato = Healthy Itachi we still end up with KCM Minato ahead since:

Minato = Healthy Itachi

Minato + Edo Buffs would than = Healthy Itachi + Edo Buffs

Minato + Edo Buffs + KCM would than > Healthy ITachi + Edo Buffs

But again that's irrelevant for this thread


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## Bonly Jr. (Jun 8, 2013)

Colgate smile blinds Itachi and Minato doubles up with a Shunshin + Kunai to the dome.


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## Trojan (Jun 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi never admitted any such thing, and why would he? He's blatantly stronger than Jiraiya.
> 
> 
> Genjutsu landed on A, who is faster than Minato if we're talking about actual movement. It's all about making eye-contact, and if that happens, Minato's as boned as anybody else who doesn't have a high-level Doujutsu.



1- Yes he did. 


Itachi made it clear that he can never win against jman, and the best they can do (Itachi and Kisame) is to die with him. 

2- lol, so Itachi can catch Minato with his Susanoo, so he can put him in genjutsu?


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