# When did Naruto surpass Alive Minato?



## Kisame (Jul 2, 2018)

As in Minato without KCM and BM.


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## Mindovin (Jul 2, 2018)

In what?
Overall firepower?
Chakra control?
If they fight to the death which Naruto win
or something like that. You should be more specific.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 2, 2018)

BM

Id still put Base Minato on the same general level as KCM if not higher

So its definitely nothing prior to that


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## Bonly (Jul 2, 2018)

Once he got Bijuu Mode


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## Android (Jul 2, 2018)

KCM.

Of course, surpassing a character in overall standing and beating them in a direct fight are two different things.


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## The_Conqueror (Jul 2, 2018)

Post Kurama CO-Op


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jul 2, 2018)

Leaning towards KCM. Naruto isn't sushstantially slower in that mode and he has heaps more firepower (though Minato is a lot more intelligent a fighter and has space/time barriers capable of redirecting a bijuu Dama). It's a hard choice, on second thought. 

Minato was a monster narratively and by feats when he showed up in the story.


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2018)

BM, most likely.


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## MShadows (Jul 2, 2018)

When he got BM. 

It was later revealed during the war that Minato could use Sage Mode as well all along so not even KCM should be enough.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 2, 2018)

It was originally during the Pain arc going by Fukasaku and Bee's statements but then it seemed like Kishi decided to take a different route.

KCM just to be safe.


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## Serene Grace (Jul 2, 2018)

KCM

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## Djomla (Jul 2, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> It was originally during the Pain arc going by Fukasaku and Bee's statements but then it seemed like Kishi decided to take a different route.
> 
> KCM just to be safe.



Maybe they were referring to SM. Pa was training him in senjutsu and at that point his Sage Mode was better than both Jman's and Minato's.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 2, 2018)

When he learned that jutsu and was able to use the chakra transfer


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## FlamingRain (Jul 2, 2018)

Djomla said:


> Maybe they were referring to SM. Pa was training him in senjutsu and at that point his Sage Mode was better than both Jman's and Minato's.



Pa already stated that Naruto had done that when they were at Mount Myoboku so I don't think that's what it was. It also wouldn't explain Bee saying Sasuke was the toughest opponent he ever fought.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2018)

Pain Arc, as per the manga. Otherwise there'd be no need to bring Minato back stronger. When Naruto got KCM, he didn't feel he needed to be stronger than Minato.

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## Turrin (Jul 2, 2018)

Naruto didn't surpass Minato until he mastered BM, being able to use Sage-Mode alongside it and "That Jutsu". Until that moment Minato was still ahead of him or equivalent. In terms of performance in the manga Minato continued to out perform equal or better then Naruto in every situation up until that point.

People can cite the much greater Raw-Power Naruto had prior to that as a reason he's above Minato, but the greatest amount of raw power Naruto ever had prior to mastering BM, was 50% Kurama's power. Minato had already overcome 50% Demon-Fox's power before, In-fact the entire reason Naruto has 50% of the Fox's power is because Minato sealed that power into him with the Hakke Fuuin in the first place. Yes he had Kushina's help, but he was also up against 100% Kurama and he was exhausted from fighting Obito previously / protecting the village; it's even implied he could have contained Kurama on his own if had more chakra left or wouldn't have even needed to if he didn't have to consider the safety of the village. We have also directly seen Minato contended with abilities greater then BM Naruto's. We've also seen Minato deal with greater raw power then BM-Naruto's, deflecting TBB from 100% Kurama and even the Juubi w/o issue. 

And until the point of mastering BM, Minato was consistently performing as well or better then Naruto. Against Ei Naruto struggled to eventually perform as well as Minato, though maybe not even because Naruto only outsped Ei once, while Minato did it twice. He struggled the whole time to counter Obito's Kamui, ultimately needing Kakashi's help, while Minato did it on his own. He was about to be obliterated by Juubi's TTB, when Minato stepped in and casually saved him. It really wasn't until Naruto mastered BM, that he started out performing Minato, and since all along the plot indicated that Minato's whole goal for sealing the fox into Naruto was so Naruto would use it's power to surpass him to face the future threats learning "That Jutsu", this makes sense plot wise to be the point where Naruto surpasses him too.



FlamingRain said:


> Pa already stated that Naruto had done that when they were at Mount Myoboku so I don't think that's what it was. It also wouldn't explain Bee saying Sasuke was the toughest opponent he ever fought.


I'm absolutely certain that Pa only meant Naruto surpassed Minato in Senjutsu (not overall in the Pain fight). I get why it's confused so many people, because Kishimoto intentionally made it ambiguous whether Pa was referring to Senjutsu or overall strength in the Pain fight, and this is only clarified later on in the Manga when we see Minato is much > SM-Naruto, and has his own SM, which Pa was in hindsight clearly referring to.

First Pa never said Naruto surpassed Minato in Senjutsu on Myoboku, only Jiraiya. And this makes sense, Naruto had indeed surpassed Jiraiya, but would not surpass Minato until the Pain fight. 

Minato was able to balance all three energies perfectly, while Jiriaya could not. The scene where Naruto stated to have surpassed Jiraiya in Myoboku, was when he also manages to perfectly balance all three energies. But he has not yet surpassed Minato who can also accomplish this feat. 

Minato's weakness in Sage-Mode, is the same weakness that all the Toad-Sages have which Naruto overcame. He has to stand still to gather natural energy which is very difficult in battle. If you don't stand still and gather energy long enough you can only enter the mode briefly as we saw Minato's incredibly brief usage of Senjutsu against Juubito. Jiraiya overcame this weakness by utilizing the Toad-Fusion technique; we don't know if Minato ever learned this technique or employed it, but we can see why this method would clash with Minato's style.

Jiriaya's method takes a time in battle as well, requiring him to stand still initially and then perform the summoning of Ma/Pa into his body. Minato is mostly a speed based fighter centered around using FTG to catch his enemies off guard. Him giving the enemy time to set up while he sets up his own Sage-Mode, really isn't his style, nor is it necessary for him to defeat most enemies, as most enemies in the series can be defeated by Minato's Rasengan Attacks w/o requiring a need for the extra fire-power; and if more fire-power is needed a high speed combo of attacks, like it's implied Minato uses Rasen-Flash Dance for, is probably easier and more effective to execute then Sage-Mode. So despite the fact that in the NBD where we match every characters against every other we can see instances where Sage-Mode would be useful, those instances probably rarely came up in Minato's actual life, with him mostly facing enemies who could be taken down by Rasengan Attacks or ones that extra fire power of Sage Mode wouldn't be enough and required Fuuinjutsu anyway (like the Demon-Fox).

But Naruto not having that style of Minato's and w/ fusion off the table, he was forced to learn the clone method. It's at the point where he learns the clone method that he surpasses Minato as a Sage, because he's able to gather natural energy while still fighting in battle, something Minato could not do. 

In-fact this is exactly the same way Naruto surpasses Minato in Rasengan, utilizing clones to multi-task. And guess what Kakashi says the same thing about Naruto surpassing his predecessors after Naruto learns FRS, w/ the same Shadow of Minato appearing. Given the similarity of these two things and the scenes themselves, it's very clear that both Pa and Kakashi are referencing Naruto surpassing Minato in specific Techniques, not overall. 

And this also fits with leading up to Naruto ultimately surpassing Minato overall after mastering BM. Because like I said the entire point of Minato sealing the Kyuubi's Chakra into Naruto was so he could master it and become stronger then him. Using the greater chakra supply it granted him to be able to do things like use multiple clones more freely to master Rasengan and Sage-Mode more then Minato, are merely the first expressions of that, which culminate in Naruto eventual mastery of BM, which allows him to completely surpass Minato overall.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2018)

Just sayin' Naruto didn't surpass Hashirama, Hashirama was brought as we was... actually brought back weaker as he was that strong.
Manga said Naruto surpassed Minato after he got SM, the manga proceeds to bring back Minato stronger than he was alive.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 2, 2018)

Post Kurama cooperation imo


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## FlamingRain (Jul 2, 2018)

Turrin said:


> First Pa never said Naruto surpassed Minato in Senjutsu on Myoboku, only Jiraiya. And this makes sense, Naruto had indeed surpassed Jiraiya, but would not surpass Minato until the Pain fight.
> 
> Minato was able to balance all three energies perfectly, while Jiriaya could not. The scene where Naruto stated to have surpassed Jiraiya in Myoboku, was when he also manages to perfectly balance all three energies. But he has not yet surpassed Minato who can also accomplish this feat.



Fukasaku also noted that Naruto was able to create more Sage Chakra before stating that he had surpassed Jiraiya. That would mean he was better than the guy who could only make enough for a single Rasengan, too. Minato had more than that amount of time to start  charging Sage Mode because he didn't move until after the talking was over, so it wasn't just that he didn't spend enough time on it it was that he had already done what he could.

Pa would have already known that Naruto had surpassed Minato in Sage Mode and there's _still_ the issue of Bee stating that Sasuke was the toughest opponent he had ever fought.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Fukasaku also noted that Naruto was able to create more Sage Chakra before stating that he had surpassed Jiraiya. That would mean he was better than the guy who could only make enough for a single Rasengan, too. Minato had more than that amount of time to start  charging Sage Mode because he didn't move until after the talking was over, so it wasn't just that he didn't spend enough time on it it was that he had already done what he could.
> 
> Pa would have already known that Naruto had surpassed Minato in Sage Mode and there's _still_ the issue of Bee stating that Sasuke was the toughest opponent he had ever fought.



Though we have different stances overall (I believe Minato was surpassed in the Pain arc), I do agree with your reasoning.

With Bee, there could be the case of Sasuke was the toughest in that he's the only guy he faced who was able to make his Bijuu power irrelevant (Amaterasu). Minato never did that, the last time he clashed with Bee, Bee was ready to counter Minato.

So it works.

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## Mawt (Jul 2, 2018)

I'd say KCM for overall stats. More Chakra, more power, more stamina, more Rasengan variants, FRS variants, etc. Only things Minato has him beat in are intelligence and speed.


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## Turrin (Jul 2, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Fukasaku also noted that Naruto was able to create more Sage Chakra before stating that he had surpassed Jiraiya. That would mean he was better than the guy who could only make enough for a single Rasengan, too. Minato had more than that amount of time to start  charging Sage Mode because he didn't move until after the talking was over, so it wasn't just that he didn't spend enough time on it it was that he had already done what he could.
> 
> Pa would have already known that Naruto had surpassed Minato in Sage Mode and there's _still_ the issue of Bee stating that Sasuke was the toughest opponent he had ever fought.


1. Minato didn't have time, they were all reacting to Obito starting to walk towards Madara. 

2. Naruto could mold more Sage-Chakra then Jiriaya because, he could balances the three energies perfectly (Same as Minato), while Jiriaya was losing out on some because he couldn't; it's the same principal as Chakra Control

3. For the B line keep in mind there is a major point of discussion there based on the translation. Because 

 "今までやった奴らの中でも、あの写輪眼は*一・二を争うぐらい*強かったからな。

here's the japa text. says that - "because up to now, amoung all the guys i've fought, that sharingan was *about one of the* strongest i've *fought*".

Sasuke being "one of the strongest" is different then Sasuke being "the strongest". I haven't looked at the line myself in awhile, but i'm pretty sure the closer translation to actual Japanese is "one of the strongest". 

Additionally I could also see it being debated whether B considers that interaction in the flashback a fight between him and Minato at all; all he did was save Ei and then hold up his sword, at which point Minato backed off and avoided a real fight with B (and Kumo back up). So there's this to consider too.

And even if B does consider that a fight or there were other fights, I find it absolutely silly to believe at any point Sasuke w/o even mastering Mangekyo was ever suppose to be stronger then Minato. So more likely the retecon would have been that B fought Minato in the past, not Minato's strength. Like Kishi may have not planned out the flashback scene of E + B vs Minato at the point where B made that statement.

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## hbcaptain (Jul 2, 2018)

Turrin said:


> And even if B does consider that a fight or there were other fights, I find it absolutely silly to believe at any point Sasuke w/o even mastering Mangekyo was ever suppose to be stronger then Minato. So more likely the retecon would have been that B fought Minato in the past, not Minato's strength. Like Kishi may have not planned out the flashback scene of E + B vs Minato at the point where B made that statement.


Exactly my point, the same way B.Zetsu didn't even knew about Susano'o's existence during the Itachi/Sasuke fight according to his reactions and statements, which is ridiculous giving the fact he watched over Ashura&Indra, Madara&Indra and all Uchiha clan history since the beginning.

In other words, a lot of things changed since then.

Also, yeah your translation about Bee's statement makes a lot more sens than Viz's.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 2, 2018)

Turrin said:


> 1. Minato didn't have time, they were all reacting to Obito starting to walk towards Madara.



Yes he did. From Madara first asking why Zetsu was still clinging to Obito, to Zetsu trying and failing to pry himself loose, to Kakashi and Gaara starting to move before Kakashi decides to stop Gaara, to Obito and Madara conversing again, to Kakashi once again telling Gaara to get ready, to Madara finally finishing up his talk and then to Obito once again starting to move Minato stood in place. That's more time than what Naruto used to enter the mode with even more Sage Chakra than he had when he was lifting huge statues and still maintaining the transformation.



> 2. Naruto could mold more Sage-Chakra then Jiriaya because, he could balances the three energies perfectly (Same as Minato), while Jiriaya was losing out on some because he couldn't; it's the same principal as Chakra Control



Being able to make more is what results in Sage Mode lasting longer. It was known before they even tried to fuse that Naruto could maintain Sage Mode for five minutes, and it wasn't upon recharging with a clone that Fukasaku said Naruto had surpassed his predecessors but rather upon tearing apart Asura Pain with one attack. It was never about the duration of the mode so if that's what separates Naruto and Minato's Fukasaku wasn't talking about surpassing Minato in regards to the use of Sage Mode alone, as should already be clear from the fact that Jiraiya was present as well.



> And even if B does consider that a fight or there were other fights, I find it absolutely silly to believe at any point Sasuke w/o even mastering Mangekyo was ever suppose to be stronger then Minato.



You just have to look at it from a narrative standpoint. SM Naruto is equivalent to MS Sasuke narratively speaking, and what prompted Bee's statement was the power of Sasuke's MS. Whether Sasuke was still learning to control it or not (and Bee would have been too preoccupied to notice Sasuke's strain) Bee had just gotten a glimpse of what kind of fighter Sasuke was turning into with the MS.

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## Alita (Jul 2, 2018)

SM Naruto beats him imo by outlasting him since minato has nothing in base to put Naruto down with.


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## Kai (Jul 2, 2018)

For those who actually believe MS and SM surpassed Minato and Itachi: you guys really think CM and EMS had no benchmarks?

Each major power development in the original manga surpassed a heavily implied benchmark. Benchmarks measured these growths.


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## goombanthime (Jul 2, 2018)

The Sage frog straight up said that he surpassed him in the Pain arc, and they would know as they trained Minato since he has sage mode


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## Kai (Jul 2, 2018)

goombanthime said:


> The Sage frog straight up said that he surpassed him in the Pain arc, and they would know as they trained Minato since he has sage mode


He surpassed two completely different shinobi in senjutsu arts. Surpassing two shinobi benchmarks simultaneously in overall strength given these contexts is highly unlikely.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2018)

Kai said:


> For those who actually believe MS and SM surpassed Minato and Itachi: you guys really think CM and EMS had no benchmarks?
> 
> Each major power development in the original manga surpassed a heavily implied benchmark. Benchmarks measured these growths.



If you want to talk about benchmarks:

MS = Itachi
SM = Minato

You can even throw in Oro and Jiraiya there too. 

Benchmarks for Kurama Naruto (KCM, BM) and EMS Sasuke:

Kurama's power = Hashirama
EMS = Madara

Those ninja were even cited when Naruto and Sasuke were fighting Obito.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2018)

Kai said:


> He surpassed two completely different shinobi in senjutsu arts. Surpassing two shinobi benchmarks simultaneously in overall strength given these contexts is highly unlikely.



As @FlamingRain has repeated multiple times, Fukasaku already directly referenced Naruto surpassing Jiraiya in the Sage Arts when Naruto actually achieved SM. Since we learnt Minato's Sage Arts is worse than Jiraiya's, that automatically includes Minato in that too. 
That context was explicitly clear in citing the Senjutsu point.

Naruto surpassing Minato and Jiraiya overall was made especially clear with the context with 3 people seeing the images behind Naruto and one guy literally saying "Naruto surpassed those that came before him". You can't get clearer than that, especially when you consider the Sage Arts remark was made before.

Prior to this, the damage control was "they meant surpassed Jiraiya in SM and Minato in Rasengan"... before Fukasaku knew FRS was a thing. That's as bad as dismissing Itachi saying the only reason Sasuke won't beat him is due to lacking the MS because he was lying.


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## Kisame (Jul 2, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> It was originally during the Pain arc going by Fukasaku and Bee's statements but then it seemed like Kishi decided to take a different route.
> 
> KCM just to be safe.


I think you hit the nail on the head.

It was a clear statement from Kishimoto that came after he already established Naruto had surpassed Jiraiya in Senjutsu. In fact it came after Naruto defeated Shurado so it doesn't seem like it had much to do with Senjutsu.

But we saw later Kishimoto seemed to change his mind about Minato's power in relation to Naruto - presumably because he hadn't planned beforehand what role Minato was gonna play.

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## goombanthime (Jul 2, 2018)

Turrin said:


> People can cite the much greater Raw-Power Naruto had prior to that as a reason he's above Minato, but the greatest amount of raw power Naruto ever had prior to mastering BM, was 50% Kurama's power. Minato had already overcome 50% Demon-Fox's power before, In-fact the entire reason Naruto has 50% of the Fox's power is because Minato sealed that power into him with the Hakke Fuuin in the first place. Yes he had Kushina's help, but he was also up against 100% Kurama and he was exhausted from fighting Obito previously / protecting the village; it's even implied he could have contained Kurama on his own if had more chakra left or wouldn't have even needed to if he didn't have to consider the safety of the village. We have also directly seen Minato contended with abilities greater then BM Naruto's. We've also seen Minato deal with greater raw power then BM-Naruto's, deflecting TBB from 100% Kurama and even the Juubi w/o issue.



Minato doesn't have raw power even comparable to BM Naruto, a restrained nine-tail could one shot both minato and Kushina at the same time with one claw.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> It was originally during the Pain arc going by Fukasaku and Bee's statements but then it seemed like Kishi decided to take a different route.
> 
> KCM just to be safe.





Shark said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head.
> 
> It was a clear statement from Kishimoto that came after he already established Naruto had surpassed Jiraiya in Senjutsu. In fact it came after Naruto defeated Shurado so it doesn't seem like it had much to do with Senjutsu.
> 
> But we saw later Kishimoto seemed to change his mind about Minato's power in relation to Naruto - presumably because he hadn't planned beforehand what role Minato was gonna play.



Can't you argue that Kishimoto knew what role was going to be and he knew the route he was going to take? Hence why he didn't bother bringing back Minato as he was when he died. He brought him back with his powers amplified by Kurama. 

If we're defining Minato differently, then base Minato was defo surpassed in the Pain arc while KCM Minato probably when Naruto had his own KCM where he could eventually use Bijuu Dama with that form and sense negative emotions with Naruto being able to use SM on top of this being the overkill. 

The way I see it, 2 Hokage were important to Naruto (Minato and Hashirama). The one Naruto surpassed was brought back stronger (Kurama) and the one he was set to surpass was actually brought back weaker (as per Madara).


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 2, 2018)

Turrin said:


> 1. Minato didn't have time, they were all reacting to Obito starting to walk towards Madara.
> 
> 2. Naruto could mold more Sage-Chakra then Jiriaya because, he could balances the three energies perfectly (Same as Minato), while Jiriaya was losing out on some because he couldn't; it's the same principal as Chakra Control
> 
> ...


I would translate that as "even among the guys I have fought so far, that Sharingan is among the number 1 or 2" 

So not directly calling him the strongest, also remember Japanese can be vague like that 

It has not been my primary language for about a decade though so take that with a grain of salt but I'm pretty certain it's accurate.


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## KawaiiKyuubi (Jul 3, 2018)

It really depends on what you mean by surpass. They are VERY different fighters, despite all their similarities. There's people that Naruto could beat that Minato couldn't when Naruto got SM, and there's people Minato could beat that Naruto couldn't even after Naruto got BM. 

I'd put them about the same tier when Naruto got KCM though, and the manga seems to agree since that was when he seemed to get the most Minato comparisons.


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## sabre320 (Jul 3, 2018)

Sigh people still using the pain arc reference....it wouldnt make sense for the comparison to be made from a strength standpoint when minato is on another tier from jirayia...they were both sages and fukaksu had taught sm to both hence him saying he had surpassed both as a sage...comparisons to minato were being made all the way up to bm... any ways he was on a similar level at mastered kcm and surpassed him with bm.


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## sabre320 (Jul 3, 2018)

Sigh Munboys minato hate is strong....put pein arc sm naruto against ei and b.....put him against obito with kyuubi.....he simply cant fight on this level...minato was above sm narutos level.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Sigh Munboys minato hate is strong....put pein arc sm naruto against ei and b.....put him against obito with kyuubi.....he simply cant fight on this level...minato was above sm narutos level.



I hate him so much that I just stick to what the manga said about his level of power very clearly without any vagueness. I guess I ought to be like yourself and say he can solo DMS Obito and Kurama without back up.


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## sabre320 (Jul 3, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I hate him so much that I just stick to what the manga said about his level of power very clearly without any vagueness. I guess I ought to be like yourself and say he can solo DMS Obito and Kurama without back up.


Yeah pein arc sm naruto was clearly presented as a fighter who could take on a and bee together and come out on top and have them say he is unsurpassable.....when naruto needed kcm to accomplish the same against ei alone.....sm naruto  could also take on obito alone along with kurama attacking the village.....definitely sm naruto was clearly portrayed as above minato.....


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## hbcaptain (Jul 3, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I hate him so much that I just stick to what the manga said about his level of power very clearly without any vagueness. I guess I ought to be like yourself and say he can solo DMS Obito and Kurama without back up.


Raikage who knows both Minato and KCM Naruto (who is way stronger than his Pain Arc self by his own admition) said that Minato was never surpassed.
Sure, you strongly stick to manga facts.

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## King Ramirez (Jul 3, 2018)

*Why are people saying BM?*
KCM Naruto VS Alive Minato

Ninjutsu - Naruto
Genjutsu - Naruto
Taijutsu - Naruto
Speed - Minato
Strength - Naruto
Stamina -  Naruto
Chakra - Naruto
Durability - Naruto
IQ - Minato

With FTG and his battle IQ Minato would defeat KCM Naruto more times than not but Naruto is overall the more powerful Shinobi.

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## Zero890 (Jul 3, 2018)

KCM Naruto is a better version of Minato.

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## Turrin (Jul 3, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes he did. From Madara first asking why Zetsu was still clinging to Obito, to Zetsu trying and failing to pry himself loose, to Kakashi and Gaara starting to move before Kakashi decides to stop Gaara, to Obito and Madara conversing again, to Kakashi once again telling Gaara to get ready, to Madara finally finishing up his talk and then to Obito once again starting to move Minato stood in place. That's more time than what Naruto used to enter the mode with even more Sage Chakra than he had when he was lifting huge statues and still maintaining the transformation.


To me this is the should have, would have, could have argument, which can be applied to almost any battle in the series, where characters could have been doing X, Y, and Z, but simply didn't. We see it all the time where the action stops while characters are talking or characters don't use their move-set as intelligently as possible. For example why isn't Naruto always gathering Sage-Chakra every time he gets a chance to stand still in battle? There's literally hundreds of times this occurs in the manga after Naruto gets Sage-Mode.

The bottom line is all the manga showed was Minato reacting to Obito walking towards Madara, there is no indication that Minato attempted or even thought about entering Sage-Mode until that moment.



> Being able to make more is what results in Sage Mode lasting longer. It was known before they even tried to fuse that Naruto could maintain Sage Mode for five minutes, and it wasn't upon recharging with a clone that Fukasaku said Naruto had surpassed his predecessors but rather upon tearing apart Asura Pain with one attack. It was never about the duration of the mode so if that's what separates Naruto and Minato's Fukasaku wasn't talking about surpassing Minato in regards to the use of Sage Mode alone, as should already be clear from the fact that Jiraiya was present as well.


I'm not really sure I understand what your saying here, but Naruto was stated to have surpassed Minato, because he had mastered the ability to use Sage-Mode in battle w/o Fusion at that point, doing something no other Toad-Sage had through the use of clones. His usage of clones to accomplish something the other Toad-Sages (namely Minato) hadn't directly mirrors how he surpassed Minato in Rasengan through the same tactic, and that is why Kishimoto also had that scene mirror the scene from the Wind-Arc w/ the shadow of Minato appearing in the same way.

The shadow appeared after Naruto's Fuuton Rasengan overcame Kakashi's, not during the time Naruto used clones to create the Rasengan. Same way Minato's shadow appears after Naruto uses Toad Sage-Mode in battle to wreck Pain, not during the prior off screen setup of the clones and scroll.



> You just have to look at it from a narrative standpoint. SM Naruto is equivalent to MS Sasuke narratively speaking, and what prompted Bee's statement was the power of Sasuke's MS. Whether Sasuke was still learning to control it or not (and Bee would have been too preoccupied to notice Sasuke's strain) Bee had just gotten a glimpse of what kind of fighter Sasuke was turning into with the MS.


It's not about strain or not, it's about the fact that all Sasuke showed B in that fight was MS-Genjutsu and Amaterasu. He did not show the ability to use Susano'o or even Enton; and was physically nerfed in that fight due to his injuries from the Itachi battle. And every performance and hype statement about Minato places him well above that level, For fucks sake Minato was making a mockery out of Ei, someone who fought a much more powerful MS-Sasuke to a near draw. So why would I believe Kishimoto ever intended this to be the case, I mean even events that happened after the Pain-Arc aside, you really think the guy he had Jiraiya praising as the greatest Ninja and who sealed the Demon-Fox, was weaker then MS-Sasuke, nah no way.

Heck Sasuke wasn't even the strongest B had faced outside of Minato at that time, because B has clearly fought/sparred w/ Ei before, and Ei was stronger than Sasuke was at that time.

So again B was likely saying Sasuke was one of the strongest not thee strongest, which supported by the other translations of this line.


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## goombanthime (Jul 3, 2018)

Turrin said:


> It's not about strain or not, it's about the fact that all Sasuke showed B in that fight was MS-Genjutsu and Amaterasu. He did not show the ability to use Susano'o or even Enton; and was physically nerfed in that fight due to his injuries from the Itachi battle. And every performance and hype statement about Minato places him well above that level, For fucks sake Minato was making a mockery out of Ei, someone who fought a much more powerful MS-Sasuke to a near draw. So why would I believe Kishimoto ever intended this to be the case, I mean even events that happened after the Pain-Arc aside, you really think the guy he had Jiraiya praising as the greatest Ninja and who sealed the Demon-Fox, was weaker then MS-Sasuke, nah no way.
> .



when was it ever implied that Sasuke was physically weaker in the B fight


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## FlamingRain (Jul 3, 2018)

Turrin said:


> To me this is the should have, would have, could have argument.



Well it _shouldn't_ be, because we have no good reason to assume he started so late to begin with. We see Kakashi and Gaara first get ready before the conversation even starts. Why assume Minato alone waited until after all that to start charging Sage Mode?

Because comfort, I guess.

There's no actual issue.



> I'm not really sure I understand what your saying here, but Naruto was stated to have surpassed Minato, because he had mastered the ability to use Sage-Mode in battle w/o Fusion at that point,



No, he was stated to have surpassed Minato. That's it, and before the clones were used. There was never any specifying about how it was talking solely about proficiency with Sage Mode.

The fact that Minato's shadow didn't appear until after Naruto's Rasengan overcame Kakashi's when Naruto surpassed Minato in using Rasengan does nothing but give us reason to expect that Minato's shadow shouldn't have appeared until Naruto recharged Sage Mode with a clone unless of course...that's not what Fukasaku was referring to.



> It's not about strain or not, it's about the fact that all Sasuke showed B in that fight was MS-Genjutsu and Amaterasu.



You're still more concerned about the feats than the narrative, then.

You can't say "if anything the retcon was Bee fighting Minato" then use Bee's fight with Minato (because it was with Bee that Ay fought him) to argue such. If Kishi hadn't thought that out yet then it's of no consequence.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jul 3, 2018)

Who's the genius who voted for "Rikudo mode" ?


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 3, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> Who's the genius who voted for "Rikudo mode" ?


Anyone who could read the manga and saw that Jiraiya didn’t need Sage Mode to defeat a Juubi Jinchuriki?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 3, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Well it _shouldn't_ be, because we have no good reason to assume he started so late to begin with. We see Kakashi and Gaara first get ready before the conversation even starts. Why assume Minato alone waited until after all that to start charging Sage Mode?
> 
> Because comfort, I guess.
> 
> There's no actual issue.


I'm not sure what your referring to, but before the conversation starts Kakashi and Gaara specifically stop their actions and Kakashi says to wait to make a move until they see how things play out cause they can't afford a mistake:
thing

So I don't see where Kakashi or Garaa ready any Jutsu or attacks prior to when Obito starts to move towards Madara.

Also bare in mind we know Minato wasn't molding Sage-Chakra before the point that his FTG Kunai lands at Madara's feat, because he had to throw it over there, which requires motion and he activates Sage-Mode after that. So literally the only time Minato had to gather Sage-Mode was that split instance after he tossed the Kunai and it landed (see the top panels):
thing

So whether he should have been doing it or not, we know he wasn't.



> No, he was stated to have surpassed Minato. That's it, and before the clones were used.


The clones method was developed and was already employed by the time Naruto reached the battlefield, hence the clones being set up at Myoboku and the scroll already being in hand.



> There was never any specifying about how it was talking solely about proficiency with Sage Mode.


If you really want to play that game, there was never anything specifying that Pa was talking about overall strength ether. In-fact translators have stated as much in the past. From Gottheim (one of the top translators) about Pa's statement:

"the sentence is way too vague to be taken as a statement of Naruto's actual power level and no amount of alternate translation is gonna change that."

In both cases this is a discussion about what context and plot indicates.



> The fact that Minato's shadow didn't appear until after Naruto's Rasengan overcame Kakashi's when Naruto surpassed Minato in using Rasengan does nothing but give us reason to expect that Minato's shadow shouldn't have appeared until Naruto recharged Sage Mode with a clone unless of course...that's not what Fukasaku was referring to


I'm saying we were given a similar scene in the Wind-Arc, but we don't conclude that Naruto surpassed Minato in the Wind-Arc. Because of context we know the scene is just referencing Naruto having surpassed Minato in one area Rasegan mastery through the usage of clone. This mirrors whats occurring in the Pain Arc with Minato and Senjutsu.



> You're still more concerned about the feats than the narrative, then.


I'm 100% talking about the narrative and not feats. If we were talking feats, Minato wins by a landslide based on his feats in successive arcs, where he has literally shrugged off Sasuke's greatest Jutsu at that time (Amaterasu) in the war-arc.

Sasuke had yet to master Mangekyo at that point in the narrative, so narratively speaking Sasuke hadn't even come close to obtaining the full might of his next major power up, on top of Kishi already specifically making him weaker in that fight for the sake of the narrative. Yet you think Kishimoto would have Sasuke at that point in the narrative be stronger then the 4th Hokage, someone he had spent the entire narrative hyping up as one of the greatest Ninja of all time, having characters like Jiriaya gushing over him. It doesn't make sense. Sasuke wasn't even displaying close to what Itachi displayed with Mangekyo, yet he's suppose to be stronger then Minato, no way.



> You can't say "if anything the retcon was Bee fighting Minato" then use Bee's fight with Minato (because it was with Bee that Ay fought him) to argue such. If Kishi hadn't thought that out yet then it's of no consequence.


Or Kishi just hadn't thought B was involved in that fight until later. We don't know. 

Also my primary argument is no retecon occurred and that B was merely saying that Sasuke was one of the strongest he faced, not thee strongest, which fits much better with the narrative considering not only do we later see Minato out performing B-Fight Sasuke, but wee also see Ei out performing him as well, two people B fought.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 3, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> BM
> 
> Id still put Base Minato on the same general level as KCM if not higher
> 
> So its definitely nothing prior to that


This is correct.

KCM Naruto has more war value as he can fight multiple kage levels shinobi across several battlefields but Minato is as skilled at small skirmish fighting and he can protect entire armies from nukes and enhance a team to incredible heights with FTG offensively (warping into attacking positions) and defensively (warping them away from attacks).

Minato's high end speed feats also shit all over Naruto's. Outspeeding Kamui several steps ahead with a kunai throw an sm entry a rasengan manifestation and a teleportation before Kamui even manifested around Obito, physically reacting to Truthseekers and falling before Obito could even cast Kamui in reaction, intercepting truthseekers and warping out with them before they could even damage his cloak, crossing Konoha in a second, intercepting Kushina before Kurama's fist could move down to crush her, kicking Ei to the side and slashing Bee's tentacle while also marking it, reacting to Kamui while being warped without knowledge on it, slamming rasengan into Obito before he could think to activate a technique

vs.

Dodging Ei while he was already moving forcing Ei into an intercept angle

The low end feats of KCM Naruto are also pretty bad, requiring shinobi like Base Killer Bee and Base Gai to save him numerous times and being dominated by a shinobi that Minato flattened in two exchanges, in situations that Minato would've got out of in his sleep.

Reactions: Like 1


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## savior2005 (Jul 3, 2018)

During Pain arc. Hell, Naruto didn't even need SM to blitz Minato, Base Naruto was more than enough:


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 3, 2018)

savior2005 said:


> During Pain arc. Hell, Naruto didn't even need SM to blitz Minato, Base Naruto was more than enough:


Nothing like his long lost son blitzing a spec of Minato's chakra in the form of a human as he designed it in the recesses of Naruto's brain stem while Minato is apologizing for being a terrible father.

Meanwhile Minato is getting anal raped by the death reaper 24/7 in his stomach while his bunshin fight Kurama.

KCM >>>>> SM

KCM Naruto low end:
thing

thing


thing
thing



Base Minato low end:

Whoops, there's no low end feats. Base Minato never lost in an exchange and was never in any mortal danger. He actually has low end feats in KCM.. but not in base!

We've already been over the high end feats... so I guess that's a wrap?

I'll throw this in:
_BM_ Naruto thought as Minato by Kakashi


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## Android (Jul 3, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> KCM Naruto low end:
> William Adams
> 
> William Adams
> ...


Silly comparison.

Most of those feats were when Naruto wasn't even at full power. Having most of his chakra spread across the war battlefield.

Minato (living) had like 2 fights on panel, he didn't have much showing for you to compare his low end feats with Naruto's.

The only area where Minato is superior is speed, which is because of the same thing that made him faster than A in the first place, which is Hiraishin. And considering A was a hair cut away from knocking his teeth down his throat, a full speed KCM would end his life (don't try to bring up the second time Minato reacted to A because A specifically said he'll only use his full speed after forcing Minato to teleport away).

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 3, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> Silly comparison.
> 
> Most of those feats were when Naruto wasn't even at full power. Having most of his chakra spread across the war battlefield.
> 
> ...


Nothing you said here gives KCM Naruto better high end feats or better low end feats.

At his height he wasn't close to Minato's speed level. This isn't debatable, Minato has 4+ _considerably_ better speed features in his career despite outrageously less panel time.

At his low point he was a scrub in comparison to Minato on his worst day, and Minato fought stronger shinobi like Jubito and Judara who are leaps and bounds above KCM Naruto's speed level and put his best speed feats on the table during those battles.

To be clear, that was prime Minato who fought the Juubi Jins. Not the pre-hokage Minato who toyed with A & B that you're referring to in an exchange where he whopped Ei's ass. Didn't even have Rasengan then.

Hype has Minato as a speed god that makes Killer Bee, KCM Naruto's partner, shiver in fear at the mention of his name roughly 16 years after his demise and the man who nearly killed KCM Naruto in combat in Ei if not for interjection by a third party calling him unsurpassable and the savior of the world.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Yeah pein arc sm naruto was clearly presented as a fighter who could take on a and bee together and come out on top and have them say he is unsurpassable.....when naruto needed kcm to accomplish the same against ei alone.....sm naruto  could also take on obito alone along with kurama attacking the village.....definitely sm naruto was clearly portrayed as above minato.....



Minato didn't take Ay and Bee together. He tried to hit Ay, 1 v 1, had his attack intercepted by Bee. Then teleported behind Bee by surprise. Seriously, did you even read the manga?

He needed KCM to have comparable speed to Minato, not surpass him overall. SM was enough to battle the 3rd Raikage, who was as base as V1 Ay. V1 Ay forced Minato to use Hiraishin.

Even Minato couldn't take out Obito attacking the village, that's why Obito left and Naruto left to fight Kurama. In fact, did you read the manga? Hint, Minato died against Kurama even after having Kushina there to help him. 

Naruto mastered a jutsu Minato could not, and he mastered a mode which 3 people who knew Minato believed meant Naruto surpassed Minato. 

Canon Minato was surpassed, hence he was brought back stronger. Of course, your Minato wasn't surpassed. I mean IIRC your Minato can take DMS Obito and 100% Kurama, easy.



hbcaptain said:


> Raikage who knows both Minato and KCM Naruto (who is way stronger than his Pain Arc self by his own admition) said that Minato was never surpassed.
> Sure, you strongly stick to manga facts.



Raikage never knew Naruto before KCM Naruto, he didn't know his battle abilities or anything. He just knew him as a Kyuubi Jinchuriki who was Minato's son. Whereas Tsunade and the toads that knew Minato more than his rival all believed that Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya in the Pain arc.

Much like our friend, sabre. I've outlined details you've chosen not to consider in your assessment. 

This is no different to Itachi fans who refuse to accept that Itachi himself said the only reason he'd not die to Sasuke was because Sasuke lacked the MS. Just like Jiraiya fans who refuse to believe SM Naruto surpassed Jiraiya. This is no different to a certain Minato fan who thinks Minato was never surpassed until Naruto got SPSM. 

Protip: it helps for you not to miss out details before accusing someone else of not sticking to facts.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Raikage never knew Naruto before KCM Naruto, he didn't know his battle abilities or anything. He just knew him as a Kyuubi Jinchuriki who was Minato's son. Whereas Tsunade and the toads that knew Minato more than his rival all believed that Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya in the Pain arc.


Raikage knew everything about Naruto, KCM included, since shinobi alliance shared the infos between them and A is nothing more than the head of this same alliance. Furhtermore, he also clashed multiple times with Naruto before claiming Minato's superiority.
If you refute such a thing, then the same reasoning goes for Fukasaku who knew nothing about Naruto's fighting style outside of Senjutsu.
So, just stop being dellusionnal out of hate.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This is no different to Itachi fans who refuse to accept that Itachi himself said the only reason he'd not die to Sasuke was because Sasuke lacked the MS.


Such a statement never existed, even the last Databook confrims that Sasuke only surpassed Itachi in terms of ninjutsu and Dojutsu, _not overall_, by unlocking EMS.
Or, let me guess, this is just another distorded interpretation of yours of some statement no one knows about.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2018)

The only Minato that KCM Naruto surpassed was KCM Minato seeing as he could do jutsu Minato could not like mini-Bijuudama and use chakra shroud jutsu a lot easier than Minato seemingly could. 



hbcaptain said:


> Raikage knew everything about Naruto, KCM included, since shinobi alliance shared the infos between them and A is nothing more than the head of this same alliance. Furhtermore, he also clashed multiple times with Naruto before claiming Minato's superiority.
> If you refute such a thing, then the same reasoning goes for Fukasaku who knew nothing about Naruto's fighting style outside of Senjutsu.
> So, just stop being dellusionnal out of hate.



How did Naruto know everything about Naruto? He didn't even know who Akatsuki's leader was let alone that Naruto defeated him. Nor did he show any awareness of Naruto's Senjutsu abilities. This is the same guy who thought he could punch Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi.
He went by his experience of Minato and his lack of knowledge on Naruto's capabilities. He just said Minato would never be surpassed in his eyes. Guess what, he thought he had the edge over Minato when he first met him... before acknowledging anything he needed to get owned... that's what happened with KCM.

Delusions from the dude whose trying hard to despite a canon fact... Fukasaku knew nothing about Naruto's fighting style. You mean he doesn't know the fighting style _he _thought Naruto (frog-fu) and all the Senjutsu he taught Naruto and clones and Rasengan... Naruto's fighting style is something he needs in-depth knowledge of? I'm guessing Tsunade didn't know Minato well either, right? I guess 3 characters seeing and thinking the same thing don't know as much as Ay. 




> Such a statement never existed, even the last Databook confrims that Sasuke only surpassed Itachi in terms of ninjutsu and Dojutsu, _not overall_, by unlocking EMS.
> Or, let me guess, this is just another distorded interpretation of yours of some statement no one knows about.



Did you even read the manga?



He literally said Sasuke's goal (Itachi's death) would not happen because he lacks the MS i.e. Sasuke could accomplish his goal if he had the MS. Databook fact over a manga fact you overlooked. 

Join the list of posters who need to re-read the manga.


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## sabre320 (Jul 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato didn't take Ay and Bee together. He tried to hit Ay, 1 v 1, had his attack intercepted by Bee. Then teleported behind Bee by surprise. Seriously, did you even read the manga?
> 
> He needed KCM to have comparable speed to Minato, not surpass him overall. SM was enough to battle the 3rd Raikage, who was as base as V1 Ay. V1 Ay forced Minato to use Hiraishin.
> 
> ...



Pein arc sm naruto wouldnt even last against bee alone let alone both together.
Your bias is pretty pathetic.....ei and bee fought multiple times as referenced in the databook and minato came out on top and camee out with the extremely arrogant ei saying he was unsurpassable and bee trembling and sweating at his name yet you will ignore and desperately try to downplay anything related to minato .

The only reason minato died that night was because he decided to seal the kyuubi into naruto. He could have bfrd the kyuubi away or sealed it into kushina or let her seal it in her but he wanted naruto to be the jinchuriki and wanted konoha to still have their main military asset the strongest bijuu which would be lost if kushina sealed it in and died or if minato bfrd it.

Read the freaking manga and take off the goddamn hate goggles.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Pein arc sm naruto wouldnt even last against bee alone let alone both together.
> Your bias is pretty pathetic.....ei and bee fought multiple times as referenced in the databook and minato came out on top and camee out with the extremely arrogant ei saying he was unsurpassable and bee trembling and sweating at his name yet you will ignore and desperately try to downplay anything related to minato .
> 
> The only reason minato died that night was because he decided to seal the kyuubi into naruto. He could have bfrd the kyuubi away or sealed it into kushina or let her seal it in her but he wanted naruto to be the jinchuriki and wanted konoha to still have their main military asset the strongest bijuu which would be lost if kushina sealed it in and died or if minato bfrd it.
> ...



Ninja talks about bias yet consistently shows he hasn't read manga pages while saying Minato alone can take DMS Obito and 100% Kurama. 

We saw how Minato vs Ay and Bee went. We also haven't seen everything Senjutsu has to offer too, however, it is enough for Fukasaku to say Minato>Naruto. You can only deny canon for so long.

Did you really just say Minato only died to seal Kurama into Naruto when he could've taken Kurama out on his own.

You're so bias that you don't even realise it... "Minato could've taken Kurama without dying but he didn't".

Go back to reading the manga and stop making me laugh. This time also read the pages that aren't Minato centric, you'll feel like you read a new manga.


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## sabre320 (Jul 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ninja talks about bias yet consistently shows he hasn't read manga pages while saying Minato alone can take DMS Obito and 100% Kurama.
> 
> We saw how Minato vs Ay and Bee went. We also haven't seen everything Senjutsu has to offer too, however, it is enough for Fukasaku to say Minato>Naruto. You can only deny canon for so long.
> 
> ...


Funny because you agreed minato could win via frogsong

Pathetic...we saw how minato vs the brothers went with ei having to be saved by bee while bee being marked by minato.....yeah pein arc sm naruto would definitely do much better....ignore all statements and hype from his rivals who fought him multiple times.....

Obito was spanked and ran off kurama was free from his control...and out of his village kushina said she would seal the kyuubi into her and die ...minato said he would seal the kyuubi into naruto because he wanted konoha to have the bijuu and wanted naruto to be the jinchuriki....hence he split the chakra via reaper death seal and split its chakra.....are you not comprehending what had happened.....does ur brain not process the fact that the kyuubi could have been dealt with without minato dying but minato sacrificed his life specifically because he wanted to seal the kyuubi into naruto while splitting its chakra in two.

Next time actually read the manga with some comprehension and without ur biased goggles on will make ur life much easier.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Funny because you agreed minato could win via frogsong



It seems you can't even read posts. I said he could, but I'd favour DMS Obito more times. 



> Pathetic...we saw how minato vs the brothers went with ei having to be saved by bee while bee being marked by minato.....yeah pein arc sm naruto would definitely do much better....ignore all statements and hype from his rivals who fought him multiple times.....
> 
> Obito was spanked and ran off kurama was free from his control...and out of his village kushina said she would seal the kyuubi into her and die ...minato said he would seal the kyuubi into naruto because he wanted konoha to have the bijuu and wanted naruto to be the jinchuriki....hence he split the chakra via reaper death seal and split its chakra.....are you not comprehending what had happened.....does ur brain not process the fact that the kyuubi could have been dealt with without minato dying but minato sacrificed his life specifically because he wanted to seal the kyuubi into naruto while splitting its chakra in two.
> 
> Next time actually read the manga with some comprehension and without ur biased goggles on will make ur life much easier.



You say all this, but you're still the guy who thinks Minato can take out DMS Obito and 100% Kurama and who believes Minato could've not died if he BFRd Kurama away.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 4, 2018)

Bee never fought Minato head up it was really a fight against Ei With Bee there as support as the point of the flashback was to contrast Minato speed vs Ei to Naruto’s Speed vs Ei , it also showed even then Bee was capable of holding his own yet Ei kept trying to protect him , Sasuke was probably Bee’s one true fight since becoming the Hachibi Jin as he hid his power within cloud , he trembled at the thought of Minato’s power and in the flashback we see why , there wouldn’t be a fight Minato would’ve waxed him where as Sasuke was a strong opponent whom he slapped around


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## hbcaptain (Jul 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How did Naruto know everything about Naruto? He didn't even know who Akatsuki's leader was let alone that Naruto defeated him. Nor did he show any awareness of Naruto's Senjutsu abilities. This is the same guy who thought he could punch Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi.


Again, A and every Kage knew everything about because they shared infos about themselves prior to the war.
Just accept it.


> Fukasaku knew nothing about Naruto's fighting style. You mean he doesn't know the fighting style _he _thought Naruto (frog-fu) and all the Senjutsu he taught Naruto and clones and Rasengan... Naruto's fighting style is something he needs in-depth knowledge of?


No, he did not, he knew nothing about Naruto's fighting style bar clones and Senjutsu, he didn't knew he can use Rasengan nor FRS.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Did you even read the manga?


It's as I tought you're talking about the passage upon which Itachi was refering to his P1 statement about MS as a minimal requirement to defeat him. Unfortunatly for you, it was all just Itachi's plan about diying on Sasuke's hands.
In other words, it's a mere distorded interpretation of yours out of hate as always whenever the matter concerns Itachi or Minato.
Do better next time.

Edit : your hate is so high that you even consider KCM Naruto above KCM Minato, despite the latter being >>>>> Base Naruto.


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## sabre320 (Jul 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It seems you can't even read posts. I said he could, but I'd favour DMS Obito more times.
> 
> 
> 
> You say all this, but you're still the guy who thinks Minato can take out DMS Obito and 100% Kurama and who believes Minato could've not died if he BFRd Kurama away.


So you agree its possible but obito wins more times then not then you laugh about that very notion like iike it's a plain impossibility....ur intelligence is truly amazing.


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## sabre320 (Jul 4, 2018)

Eliyua23 said:


> Bee never fought Minato head up it was really a fight against Ei With Bee there as support as the point of the flashback was to contrast Minato speed vs Ei to Naruto’s Speed vs Ei , it also showed even then Bee was capable of holding his own yet Ei kept trying to protect him , Sasuke was probably Bee’s one true fight since becoming the Hachibi Jin as he hid his power within cloud , he trembled at the thought of Minato’s power and in the flashback we see why , there wouldn’t be a fight Minato would’ve waxed him where as Sasuke was a strong opponent whom he slapped around


Sigh it was mentioned by bee that he and ei fought multiple times and was mentioned in the databook that minato took on ei and bee multiple times and came out on top....raikage said in the aftermath of the battles he considred minato unsurpassable even forgoing his massive pride while bee started trembling at minatos name....portrayal and statements couldnt be more clear here....


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Again, A and every Kage knew everything about because they shared infos about themselves prior to the war.
> Just accept it.
> 
> No, he did not, he knew nothing about Naruto's fighting style bar clones, he didn't knew he can use Rasengan nor FRS.



I can accept that you didn't actually read the manga. You're saying that the guy who actually taught Minato's view doesn't hold any weight. He didn't know Naruto could use Rasengan. Do you remember how Naruto took out Demon Path, or do you need a page for that too?

Ay said Minato hasn't been surpassed, find it.





[Blocked Domain] = mangalife. us

Minato will never be surpassed or is unsurpassed, find it. Ninja sees context about speed and processes it as overall... I won't be surprised if you think Fukasaku meant Naruto surpassed them in SM and Rasengan. 



> It's as I tought you're talking about the passage upon which Itachi was refering to his P1 statement about MS as a minimal requirement to defeat him. Unfortunatly for you, it was all just Itachi's plan about diying on Sasuke's hands.
> In other words, it's a mere distorded interpretation of yours out of hate as always whenever the matter concerns Itachi or Minato.
> Do better next time.



Ah, you're running with the "but he lies about everything" ignoring the fact that everything he was lying about was exposed.

Basically it comes down to this, read the manga. Itachi said the requirement to defeat him was the MS, we saw MS Sasuke do things with the eyes Itachi could never do. Itachi was planning to die by Sasuke's hand, the MS would make Sasuke strong enough to achieve that without Itachi holding back Susanoo.

It seems your views re Minato and Itachi are blinded by pure fanboyism. Fukasaku gives a clear picture, you refuse to accept it. Itachi gives a clear picture, you refuse to accept it.

If you're going to argue, argue properly and not against the facts.



sabre320 said:


> So you agree its possible but obito wins more times then not then you laugh about that very notion like iike it's a plain impossibility....ur intelligence is truly amazing.



Did you forget that you said frog song was one way Minato could win while you stated other ways he could win?

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He didn't know Naruto could use Rasengan. Do you remember how Naruto took out Demon Path, or do you need a page for that too?


Again, Raikage knows everything about Naruto in the war arc because Shinobi alliance members and for the third time *shared informations* about themselves.
Stop being dellusional.
Raikage claims also concerns KCM Naruto with his great speed, FRS, Rasengan and clones.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ah, you're running with the "but he lies about everything" ignoring the fact that everything he was lying about was exposed.


I'm not lying since the manga itself told us Itachi lied for his brother's sake, the whole thing was a mere plot.
So, even if you strongly want it, Itachi's statement to Sasuke doesn't hold any weight at all.
*Furtheremore*, if Itachi wasn't lying to Sasuke and he played his best to kill the latter, then he won't attempt to fight someone stronger than him in order to steal his eyes and gain EMS.
In other words :
-either Itachi was trying to obtain EMS and believed Sasuke's only chance to challenge him, not to beat him, is to unlock MS
-either Itachi's was merely lying, playing and ploting for his brother's sake
And it was confirmed later in the manga that the second option was right, and in both cases Itachi never admitted inferiority towards a potential MS Sasuke.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Fukasaku gives a clear picture, you refuse to accept it


Raikage gave as a picture and Naruto was only consistantly comared to Minato during KCM and was still compared to him even in BM.
Later statements > earlier statements.
So, just accept it and don't let the hate blind you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Again, Raikage knows everything about Naruto in the war arc because Shinobi alliance members and for the third time *shared informations* about themselves.
> Stop being dellusional.
> Raikage claims also concerns KCM Naruto with his great speed, FRS, Rasengan and clones.



Find the page claiming Minato wasn't surpassed.



> 'm not lying since the manga itself told us Itachi lied for his brother's sake, the whole thing was a mere plot.
> So, even if you strongly want it, Itachi's statement to Sasuke doesn't hold any weight at all.
> *Furtheremore*, if Itachi wasn't lying to Sasuke and he played his best to kill the latter, then he won't attempt to fight someone stronger than him in order to steal his eyes and gain EMS.
> In other words :
> ...



Itachi lied about his intentions, that's it. Not every minuscule detail, that's hardcore reaching. 

Itachi hit Sasuke with the jutsu he could handle, as the manga said. Which were Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, Susanoo didn't even attack Sasuke. 

You're extending the lying point beyond what the manga said Itachi lied about just so you can deny MS being the main thing Sasuke needs to surpass his MS using brother.



> Raikage gave as a picture and Naruto was only consistantly comared to Minato during KCM and was still compared to him even in BM.
> Later statements > earlier statements.
> So, just accept it and don't let the hate blind you.



But your bias won't prove anything.

I linked you a number of chapters, find the page which indicates that Minato wasn't surpassed. Otherwise, I'll assume like much of the Itachi/Minato fanboys, you're pulling info out of your ass without anything in the actual manga.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So by Viz, no finer shinobi. Through everything else, you're saying Ay's opinion. Was the context speed as indicated by him saying no-one has been faster than him since Minato?


All translators without exception agree about A saying Minato was never surpassed and I provided a detailed explenation, as pointed by many Viz isn't always right. And also the term "finer" is nothing more than a vague adjective which doesn't refute "*all other*" translations (I guess they're all wrong lol). 
Deal with it.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The dude literally said Sasuke's dream will be a dream only because he lacks the MS; he's basically saying he won't see Itachi dead because he lacks the MS.


Nah, it means that he doesn't stand a chance unless he has MS which is different that he has 100% of winning with MS.
And also, for the third time it's completly irrelevant since Itachi was liying as stated in the manga.
But, it seems your hatred always blinds your reasoning whenever it comes to Itachi or Minato.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except that contradicts the manga, an in cases of contradiction the manga takes priority. And despite what you're implying, surpassing Itachi's ocular powers is as good as surpassing Itachi himself. And yes, if anything that confirms what everyone's been saying all along that EMS jutsu have a significant power up from the MS, that it is not just an MS without blindness.


Nah, Itachi is still way wiser, quicker thinker, experienced and has two legendary weapons Totsuka and Yata to back him up.
So, even with EMS, Sasuke still couldn't surpass his brother overall, _it's not a concidence if Databook claims that he only surpassed his ninjutsu and Dojutsu alone _by unlocking EMS_._
And, it's laso more than enough as a proof that a gap separate MS Sasuke from Itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> All translators without exception agree about A saying Minato was never surpassed and I provided a detailed explenation, as pointed by many Viz isn't always right. And also the term "finer" is nothing more than a vague adjective which doesn't refute "*all other*" translations (I guess they're all wrong lol).
> Deal with it.



When he was talking about speed he was never surpassed. Of course you missed that while overlooking the context of the statement made in the Pain arc.



> Nah, it means that he doesn't stand a chance unless he has MS which is different that he has 100% of winning with MS.
> And also, for the third time it's completly irrelevant since Itachi was liying as stated in the manga.
> But, it seems your hatred always blinds your reasoning whenever it comes to Itachi or Minato.



He literally said Sasuke's dream will remain a fantasy just because he lacks the MS. What part of this aren't you processing?
Also the lies were exposed and that wasn't one of them, you need to get off the Minato/Itachi bias train of thought to get that. They were surpassed when Naruto/Sasuke got SM/MS. 
It is quite desperate you have to distort context with Ay and the databook to ignore what the relevant characters say, even pretending one lied about the criteria to beat him. 



> Nah, Itachi is still way wiser, quicker thinker, experienced and has two legendary weapons Totsuka and Yata to back him up.
> So, even with EMS, Sasuke still couldn't surpass his brother overall, _it's not a concidence if Databook claims that he only surpassed his ninjutsu and Dojutsu alone _by unlocking EMS_._
> And, it's laso more than enough as a proof that a gap separate MS Sasuke from Itachi.



Wiser, quick thinker, had weapons that all Susanoo had as per the the DB and their reputations... yet all Sasuke did was have a better base form (better skill set), take Amaterasu and Susanoo to lengths Itachi could not. 

EMS said he couldn't surpass Itachi, ninja, you reaching. That's fine, Amaterasu and ocular prowess completely outclassed Itachi by the EMS level like Naruto moved faster than Minato when he got KCM. However, the fact stands that Fukasaku said Naruto was overall above Minato and Itachi said the MS was enough to take him out. You're listing and clinging onto nice-to-haves of Naruto and Sasuke's abilities. 

As far as Sasuke and Itachi... Sasuke was actually beating Itachi until Susanoo came out. Susanoo was the main power being held back. With the MS, it is understandable why Sasuke could fight Itachi's Susanoo. 

Of course, Minato fans and Itachi fans will play damage control. Tbh, I guarantee you're one of those who probably say they weren't surpassed until SPSM and Rinnegan i.e. the time when Hashirama and Madara were the main benchmarks to surpass.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 4, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Sigh it was mentioned by bee that he and ei fought multiple times and was mentioned in the databook that minato took on ei and bee multiple times and came out on top....raikage said in the aftermath of the battles he considred minato unsurpassable even forgoing his massive pride while bee started trembling at minatos name....portrayal and statements couldnt be more clear here....



I know it was mentioned he fought with Raikage but not Bee , having run ins and having a full one on one battle going all out are completely different , Sasuke is probably the strongest ninja he had a major one on one fight against


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## hbcaptain (Jul 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When he was talking about speed he was never surpassed. Of course you missed that while overlooking the context of the statement made in the Pain arc.


Nah, he was taking about a context of power not speed, he was taking about Minato as the invincible man, the savior of the word who failed in his mission despite having such a mighty power.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He literally said Sasuke's dream will remain a fantasy just because he lacks the MS


Which means, he only stand a chance with MS not that he can beat him with it.
And for, the fourth time, it's irrelevant since Itachi *was liying to him* as per canon. But apparently, you deliberatly chose to forget what does not hurt you blacklist characters, as always.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> yet all Sasuke did was have a better base form (better skill set), take Amaterasu and Susanoo to lengths Itachi could not.


Itachi's base form is way above him in every area bar ninjutsu and Dojutsu and that's it.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tbh, I guarantee you're one of those who probably say they weren't surpassed until SPSM and Rinnegan


I'm not, I always tought that Naruto surpassed Minato with BM and Sasuke surpassed Itachi in the midst of the fight against Juubito.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Nah, he was taking about a context of power not speed, he was taking about Minato as the invincible man, the savior of the word who failed in his mission despite having such a mighty power.



Context about power right after he starts with "no one is faster than me since the 4th Hokage died". Dude, come on... It ended with Naruto literally showing he was faster than Ay. 




> Which means, he only stand a chance with MS not that he can beat him with it.
> And for, the fourth time, it's irrelevant since Itachi *was liying to him* as per canon. But apparently, you deliberatly chose to forget what does not hurt you blacklist characters, as always.



"Stands a chance"... I don't know what will help you process this but the Itachi literally said Sasuke's dream of killing him will only remain a fantasy *simply because he lacks the Mangekyou Sharingan*. Does the Itachi bias go so far that something so straightforward becomes difficult to fathom?

Itachi lied about wanting the EMS; this was exposed.
Itachi lied about why he killed the clan; this was exposed.
Itachi lied about not caring about Konoha or the Uchiha; this was exposed.

Do you see a pattern? Whatever Itachi lies about got exposed i.e. the untouched information is true. So as much as you like Itachi, you can't cry "he lies" to every statement which works against him. For example, falsely using the "he lies" approach to disprove him literally telling Sasuke to get the MS to beat him and then literally telling Sasuke he will never beat him without the MS.



> Itachi's base form is way above him in every area bar ninjutsu and Dojutsu and that's it.



Fanfiction has no place here. We literally saw the battle, Taijutsu, Itachi had the edge. Everything else, Sasuke owned. Ninjutsu, Ninjutsu combined with CQC. Itachi wouldn't stand a chance against Sasuke without the MS. Ninjutsu, Sasuke manipulates Enton, Raiton, literally controlled lighting and did more with Susanoo than Itachi could. He had superior Ninjutsu.

Itachi's main Ninjutsu was Susanoo and Amaterasu, and with the EMS Sasuke outclassed him. The same databook you misinterpreted... like you how failed to understand the context e.g. "Sasuke surpassed Itachi's Ninjutsu and ocular powers" with a picture of him using *version 5 *Susanoo alongside Enton; 2 things Itachi has never been able to attain.



> I'm not, I always tought that Naruto surpassed Minato with BM and Sasuke surpassed Itachi in the midst of the fight against Juubito.



Okay, that's not too bad then. There was someone, I won't name him, who believed Minato was only surpassed with SPSM. 

If you want to look at it from the benchmark perspective:

Part 2, they both surpassed Kakashi by the wind arc. 

SM mastery is when Naruto obtained it he was en route to surpass Jiraiya and Minato.
MS mastery is Sasuke obtained it he was en route to surpass Oro and Itachi. 

By this point, they surpassed their main and Sannin benchmarks. How do we know? The founders became more relevant from the war arc. It should be noted that they were outright compared to them when battling Juubito.

Kurama, Naruto's speed was compared to Minato. That's it. Everything from how he effects Zetsu to using his body power was alluding to... Hashirama.
EMS, Madara, very obviously Madara. I know Itachi fans loved to think Itachi was comparable, but he wasn't. 

If you'd like, you could throw Asura and Indra in there. 

SPSM and Rinnegan, there was no-one to surpass anymore.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 4, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Dude, come on... It ended with Naruto literally showing he was faster than Ay.


Bah, see what Raikage said after declaring that no one ever surpassed Minato and you will know the context.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Whatever Itachi lies about got exposed i.e. the untouched information is true. So as much as you like Itachi, you can't cry "he lies" to every statement which works against him.


Apparently, no matter what I and everyone says your brain cells logic become distroded when it comes to analyzing Itachi's statement.
And again, his statement about unlocking MS is irrelevant since it was a part of his big play, so whatever you say it doesn't not hold any weight at all.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> with a picture of him using *version 5 *Susanoo alongside Enton; 2 things Itachi has never been able to attain.


What do you mean by version 5 ? If it's the head with Tengu form, then Itachi had already used it multiple times in the manga.
And despite it being weaker since EMS's ocular power exceeds the MS, Itachi is still way smarter, more experienced, better in base and has two legendary weapons to back him up.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> SM mastery is when Naruto obtained it he was en route to surpass Jiraiya and Minato.
> MS mastery is Sasuke obtained it he was en route to surpass Oro and Itachi.


Minato/Itachi and Jiraya/Oro are two completly different benchmarks, SM/MS allowed them to surpass the sannin whilst EMS and Kurama mastery allowed them to surpass their genius/young parents.
Then, with Rikudou boofs they surpassed Hashi&Mads.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Bah, see what Raikage said after declaring that no one ever surpassed Minato and you will know the context.



I’m the fastest shinobi on the earth\\
Since the fourth hokage’s death\\
You knew my father!?\\
We fought several times in the past\\ he was a man (that gave the impression that*) no one could surpass\\
*TLN: this is present in the original text but in my opinion it ruins the flow\\
according to rumours that guy was the promised child of one of konoha’s sannin jiraya…\\

"That gave the impression no-one could surpass". 

2 scenarios: 
1) it is speed which Ay proceeded to use to test Naruto
2) Minato gave the impression no-one could surpass him... not that he was unsurpassable. Which then was linked to him being the child of prophecy.

Minato's impression doesn't mean he wasn't surpassed. Especially when we look at his comrades and teacher's remarks. 
Of course, then you get the fact Ay literally tested Naruto's speed and used that to determine that Naruto was the destined child instead of Minato... which either means Minato was unsurpassable because of his speed or Ay cited his speed. 

Again, like the Itachi thing, these are things you have to consider not see a speech bubble and hold onto it with no context and pretend some text you didn't like doesn't exist.



> Apparently, no matter what I and everyone says your brain cells logic become distroded when it comes to analyzing Itachi's statement.
> And again, his statement about unlocking MS is irrelevant since it was a part of his big play, so whatever you say it doesn't not hold any weight at all.



I know you want to statement to be a lie, but it literally came right out of the horse's mouth. Itachi basically said Sasuke needs the MS to kill him. That holds a ton of weight, no matter how much you try to hide the statement.



> What do you mean by version 5 ? If it's the head with Tengu form, then Itachi had already used it multiple times in the manga.
> And despite it being weaker since EMS's ocular power exceeds the MS, Itachi is still way smarter, more experienced, better in base and has two legendary weapons to back him up.



The experience etc is damage control which we saw doesn't mean much otherwise he could've taken Sasuke in base, which he couldn't. The spiritual items are something universal unless you think Itachi existed as long as they did which their reputation and DB3's entry imply otherwise. Hint, PS predated Madara and it turned it out it they had other users.

Why wouldn't Sasuke use them? Well, Totsuka isn't very helpful when your foes aren't standing still. And Yata's list of block-able items doesn't include Senjutsu and other types of jutsu such as sound, which Sasuke ended up facing. Basically, unlike Itachi, MS Sasuke faced strong foes alone which nullified the lauded advantages people preach for Itachi. 



> Minato/Itachi and Jiraya/Oro are two completly different benchmarks, SM/MS allowed them to surpass the sannin whilst EMS and Kurama mastery allowed them to surpass their genius/young parents.
> Then, with Rikudou boofs they surpassed Hashi&Mads.



Going by the manga, they're in the same top tier ballpark. 

SM allowed Naruto to surpass Minato and Jiraiya, there's a statement with complimentary imagery. There is no mistaking that. 
MS allowed Sasuke to surpass Itachi (as per his words) and Oro considering Karin said he got stronger than Hebi Sasuke.

They were certainly comparable to Hashirama and Madara, their true and final benchmarks considering the transmigrant factor. With SPSM and Rinnegan they completely eclipsed them. 

If you think surpass means "Sasuke can shit stomp Itachi", then I can see why you go for the next HAM power up. Otherwise, it just means what it meant when Kakashi said Naruto surpassed him.


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## Fëanáro (Jul 4, 2018)

In brains? Probably never...


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## Sage of 6 niggas (Jul 4, 2018)

KCM would defeat Minato, every previous form gets bopped on.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 5, 2018)

Kcm beat him, SM loses


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## Shazam (Aug 12, 2018)

KCM. 

Certainly not Pain Arc.

Argue this.. 

Hokage Minato vs Pain Arc Naruto (no prep)

Watch how hard you'll lose that argument @Munboy Dracule O'Brian


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## Kai (Aug 12, 2018)

Naruto surpasses both his parents upon acquiring the Nine Tails Chakra Mode.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 12, 2018)

Possibly Sm. Comfortably Kcm


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## sabre320 (Aug 12, 2018)

Kai said:


> Naruto surpasses both his parents upon acquiring the Nine Tails Chakra Mode.


Kcm 1 or 2? I consider kcm naruto with coop on par with minato better in some matchups worse in some, while kcm2 or bm without the avatar is on another tier.


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## savior2005 (Aug 12, 2018)

BoS


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 12, 2018)

Shazam said:


> KCM.
> 
> Certainly not Pain Arc.
> 
> ...



All I can see how is how much you hate chapter 430.


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## Shazam (Aug 12, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> All I can see how is how much you hate chapter 430.



Detail for us why don't ya...

Hokage Minato vs Pain Arc Naruto


No prep
Manga intel

Let's hear it or take a seat.


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## ARGUS (Aug 12, 2018)

BM was when he surpassed minato completely and left him in the dust 

KCM he might be superior overall but they were on the same level


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Detail for us why don't ya...
> 
> Hokage Minato vs Pain Arc Naruto
> 
> ...



SM Naruto surpassed Minato, you've got to accept that chapter 430 existed. 

This should make you feel better, no need to thank me.


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## Shazam (Aug 13, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> SM Naruto surpassed Minato, you've got to accept that chapter 430 existed.
> 
> This should make you feel better, no need to thank me.



I see.. .Refusal to let us know how Naruto wins. 

It's because he doesn't and you can't explain it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2018)

Shazam said:


> I see.. .Refusal to let us know how Naruto wins.
> 
> It's because he doesn't and you can't explain it.



Tbh, it is more that you've demonstrated with myself and several posters such as Serene Grace that you don't understand what you read. Moreover you ignore the points that counter you.

Posters like yourself just need to be shown the canon:


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## Shazam (Aug 13, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tbh, it is more that you've demonstrated with myself and several posters such as Serene Grace that you don't understand what you read. Moreover you ignore the points that counter you.
> 
> Posters like yourself just need to be shown the canon:



Sure. 

Now explain how Pain Arc Naruto would stop FTG and land any attacks on Minato?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Sure.
> 
> Now explain how Pain Arc Naruto would stop FTG and land any attacks on Minato?



Read the relevant thread because I know arguing with you is as good as arguing with Hussain.


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## hbcaptain (Aug 13, 2018)

Naruto surpassed Minato when he reached BM, aka the mode upon which he could fight on par with the foe who once got overwhelmed by the fourth.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2018)

Kishimoto told us when Naruto surpassed living Minato in chapter 430 in the Pain Arc. 

Though, some butthurt fans would have you believe otherwise. Arguments include "Fukasaku meant he surpassed Minato with Rasengan and Jiraiya with SM". Now it is "he meant SM" while pretending Fukasaku never cited the SM part before.


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