# Orochimaru Vs A



## animeboy1 (Apr 2, 2014)

*Area*: Field
*Distance*: 35m
*Restrictions*: Edo Tensei, Orochimaru can't use the poison
*Knowledge*: Reputation


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## crisler (Apr 2, 2014)

Oro does die from physical attacks eventually (he said he'd die against kn4 if he got hit with bijuu dama, a physical damage)

But it would take very long for A, and I doubt oro would just stand there and get hit all the time. It's not like A's attack wasn't avoided before, or guarded.

Oro himself is a powerful kage level, Obviously no match for 'hokages' who are historically the strongest kages bar tsunade, but definitely more powerful than most of the other kages i'd say. oro has very few weaknesses, and A doesn't have the tools he need to defeat oro.

I'd say oro wins. maybe not so easily, but not all that close either


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## Garcher (Apr 2, 2014)

I'll give Oro the edge. He's sneaky!


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## jplaya2023 (Apr 2, 2014)

If Steven (A's real name) hit's him once the fight is over. If not oro has a shot as long as he uses that big wall to defend himself


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## Mithos (Apr 2, 2014)

Ei will struggle immensely to put Oro down. His body is incredibly resilient because of his experiments modifying it, and he can spit up new bodies if his becomes irreparably damaged. 

Ei's speed can be countered by erecting Rashoumon gates to prevent a blitz, or spitting up a "sea of snakes". Manda can also be used to raise himself away from Ei, and given Manda's size and durability, I bet he can take a beating from A. Manda is also incredibly fast and maneuverable in his own right so he could help Orochimaru narrow the speed gap. 

Orochimaru also has access to Fuuton ninjutsu so he should be able to temporarily disable Ei's Lightning Armor. During that time, his summons can exploit the opening and stab him with their own kusanagis or maybe poison him. 

If Orochimaru uses Kage bunshins, he could also Kusanagi snipe him while the shroud is deactivated. 

The fight won't be easy, but it also won't be that hard either. Ei lacks the means to really kill Oro, while Oro has the means to defend against Ei's speed and eventually take him down.


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## Hand Banana (Apr 2, 2014)

Has Orichimaru ever used Fuuton in the manga? It seems his affinity is Earth.


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## Bonly (Apr 2, 2014)

Orochi should win more times then not. A's physically attacks aren't gonna do much in the long run and that's all A has. Best A can do is force Orochi to use to Oral Rebirth but eventually Orochi would use his true form and when A start to bash and slash that form up he'll feel the effects of the poison and then he'll be going down.



Hand Banana said:


> Has Orichimaru ever used Fuuton in the manga? It seems his affinity is Earth.



Yup, he's only used a Futon once back in the second round of the Chunin Exams.


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## Hand Banana (Apr 2, 2014)

Mind if you can find that page?

Also is this A with both arms or one?


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

I think you should've just said he snags him with no-knowledge poison and I wouldn't be saying anything ...



Matto-sama said:


> Ei will struggle immensely to put Oro down. His body is incredibly resilient because of his experiments modifying it, and he can spit up new bodies if his becomes irreparably damaged.




That's draining on his stamina, and if this comes to who tires first, I'm taking the guy with Biju tier stamina to win the match.



> Ei's speed can be countered by erecting Rashoumon gates to prevent a blitz, or spitting up a "sea of snakes". Manda can also be used to raise himself away from Ei, and given Manda's size and durability, I bet he can take a beating from A.




Rashomon isn't a blitz-prevention Jutsu. It requires drawing blood (which consumes time much like hand-seals), and actually summoning the Gates. That isn't faster than the Raikage can flicker, so unless Orochimaru _preemptively _summons to block LOS, they won't be a factor.

Raikage oneshots Manda just like Sakura broke that centipede. Ei's strength cracked Susano'o and had KCM Naruto fearful of direct blows. 



> Manda is also incredibly fast and maneuverable in his own right so he could help Orochimaru narrow the speed gap.






There's like five or six speed tiers in between the Raikage & Manda. Orocimaru himslef is much faster than the snake. Though Manda may be one of the more agile animal summons, none of them really compare to anyone on the Kage tier (except maybe Gaara) in terms if speed, especially not roof-tier speed specialists. 



> Orochimaru also has access to Fuuton ninjutsu so he should be able to temporarily disable Ei's Lightning Armor. During that time, his summons can exploit the opening and stab him with their own kusanagis or maybe poison him.




Orochimaru isn't going to lay a finger on the Raikage at any point in this battle. That Futon will never connect. KCM Naruto (who is tiers upon tiers faster than Orochimaru) struggled to land Rasenshuriken on Sandaime Raikage (who is slower than Ei), despite being able to guide it. 

Orochimaru has zero, I repeat ZERO chance of landing it up front. His chances increase to incredibly minimal with use of some sort of trick.



> If Orochimaru uses Kage bunshins, he could also Kusanagi snipe him while the shroud is deactivated.




He'll dodge the sword....

Or the sword won't do any major damage.


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## Bonly (Apr 2, 2014)

Hand Banana said:


> Mind if you can find that page?
> 
> Also is this A with both arms or one?



It's not to clear as we don't see Orochi himself doing it. First we see *Orochi*(in disguise) then there was a huge *gust of wind* with Orochi popping up afterwords.  entry for it which confirms that Orochi did it on Naruto's group and it list the jutsu as a Futon along with Orochi being the user.


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## animeboy1 (Apr 2, 2014)

I'll restrict the white snake blood poison, for a better match up.


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## Cognitios (Apr 2, 2014)

A takes this, Oro doesn't really have the means to take him down. Even the Grass Cutter Sword might be blocked by A, if not he dodges it.
A and Oro have about the same stamina, but I am giving this to A because I think A could eventually give him a pretty hard Lariat and end him.
A high difficulty.


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## Thunder (Apr 2, 2014)

Nothing has really changed with this match-up. Ē can and will rip Orochimaru to shreds, but he's not going to win like that. Orochimaru isn't going down to such straightforward tactics; we've been told this since day one. Hence why Hiruzen and Itachi went to such great lengths to get rid of him and ultimately failed.

Blood vapors say hello. Once the poison takes effect (Ē is bigger than Sasuke so it should take a bit longer to paralyze him) Raiton no Yoroi goes bye-bye, then Orochimaru returns the favor by cutting Ē up with the Kusanagi. Only difference is Ē isn't coming back.


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

I'm pretty curious as to why people believe Orochimaru's Kusanagi is stronger than Sasuke's Chidori.


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## jplaya2023 (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm pretty curious as to why people believe Orochimaru's Kusanagi is stronger than Sasuke's Chidori.



the only counter to kusangi is the sword itachi has. Kusangi was said to be able to cut diamond. That should be stronger than chidori


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## Cognitios (Apr 2, 2014)

> the only counter to kusangi is the sword itachi has. Kusangi was said to be able to cut diamond. That should be stronger than chidori


Kakashi's chidori could chop through V2 shrouds, Kusanagi couldn't .
Kakashi's Chidori = Sasuke's Chidori


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## Thunder (Apr 2, 2014)

It's not about which is stronger overall, but which is more effective in  this particular situation. Chidori failed to completely penetrate Ē  partly because using a Raiton to beat a Raiton is generally a dumb idea (no insult to Sasuke, work with what you've got)  and partly because Ē is just that durable. However, a non-cloaked Ē  should go down to either. 

And lately Kishimoto has been staying true  to his word, so I'm willing to bet the Kusanagi (along with the rest of  the imperial regalia) have retained their hype. The Kusanagi seems to fallen in favor here ever since it failed to harm an enraged Yonbi Naruto. But then again, that's Naruto and Kurama.


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Chidori failed to completely penetrate Ē  partly because using a Raiton to beat a Raiton is generally a dumb idea (no insult to Sasuke, work with what you've got)  and partly because Ē is just that durable. However, a non-cloaked Ē  should go down to either.



...Sasuke drove his Chidori through that cloak. The Raikage even commented on how impressive it was for Sasuke to touch him through it. The Raikage's natural durability is what allowed him to tank Chidori, not the armor. 

If I have a sword that is capable of penetrating armor, and I take that sword and stab it through a knight, that knight is fucked either way. If that knight is superhuman and can survive a sword stab with little more than a cut, then he would be fine with or without the armor.

Unless you're arguing that Chidori was diluted upon going through Raiton no Yori, it wouldn't matter if Ei was cloaked or not. The armor faltered against the jutsu, while Ei himself did not.


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2014)

The fact of the matter is Orochimaru has been portrayed as much more powerful than Ei. He defeated the strongest Gokage [Hiruzen] and was considered roughly equal to the strongest Gokage [Hiruzen] in the FB. Thats on top of having the best DB-Stats/Stat totals in the entire DB, the obligatory Sannin hype, and having defeated another Kage [& being prepared to defeat Sasori who is also Kage-level]. The hype really goes on and on.


People worry about how Orochimaru will put down Ei, but Orochimaru has demonstrated the ability to use Fuuton nature recomposition, and considering the Ninjutsu mastering freak Orochimaru is, he most likely mastered a wide variety of Fuuton Ninjutsu we'll never get to see in the manga. One of those Fuuton should be able to deal with Ei's Raitons and Ei's durability is not an issue for someone who can utilize poisons and Genjutsu to bypass durability. Beyond that there is many ways around general speed. I'm sure Ei has more he hasn't shown, in the same way i'm sure that Orochimaru has much more he hasn't shown, but than I go back to fact that Orochimaru is clearly stronger

@Rocky

I really don't see why Ksunagi having greater piercing power than Chidori is not plausible to you. Ksunagi is a legendary blade that was cutting Enma in his staff form who is suppose to be as hard as diamond.


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## Thunder (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> *Unless you're arguing that Chidori was diluted upon going through Raiton no Yori,* it wouldn't matter if Ei was cloaked or not. The armor faltered against the jutsu, while Ei himself did not.


That's my overall point, sir. It was a battle of lightning verse lightning. Straight from :



> *Lightning*
> *Easy to diffuse*, it has good compatibility with  medium to long range jutsu. Infused into a metallic weapon, it adds  harming and killing efficiency, as well as electrocution...!!


This is a well known fact, and the manga has stayed true to it.

Furthermore, Ē can pump more chakra into Raiton no Yoroi to improve his Raiton: Shunshin, or in this case, protect himself. That's exactly what we see here: [1] [2].

Not to say Ē's natural durability wasn't also a factor.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 2, 2014)

Kusanagi is not killing Ei.

Aside from the fact it wouldn't hit him as he dodges Amaterasu at will, he can slash directly through it, destroying the weapon, the same way he pummeled Suigetsu's blade without using his raiton cutting. 

Chidori is and always will be at the top of the penetrative tier list, Kusanagi failed to damage KN4 Naruto and could not kill Pre-Byakugo Tsunade with two attacking variants. The Enma staff was slapping it around like a fucking pin ball. 

It's underwhelming. 

Final note being there is no canonical evidence or portrayal suggesting Kusangi is superior to Chidori, which Ei already survived without any hindering wounds. Chidori has displayed more impressive penetrative feats throughout the manga, and by portrayal, even in part I Gai was hyping the fuck out of it [1] [2]

Therefore, by definition, it's a pointless debate.


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2014)

One thing I want to say here is that Ksunagi Sword can extent to insane lengths, it's reach is extended to an even more insane degree when Orochimaru use soft-body-modification in conjunction with it, it can be remote controlled with a mere finger motion to move autonomously, or suddenly shot out of Orochimaru's mouth at a moments notice.

So it's not like someone who wishes to evade Ksunagi simply has to be faster than Orochimaru can slash with the sword, they have to be so much faster that they can consistently escape it's absolutely absurd radius which it's reach covers. Additionally they  have to be aware of it's ability to move autonomously and Orochimaru's ability to suddenly produce it from his mouth; or have the ability to defend/sense/etc... surprise assualts. This is a tall order for anyone.

Than there is also the theory I've seen floated around that Ksunagi can actually absorb the properties of Ninjutsu, and the reason it had the ability to extend is because it absorbed the properties of Orochimaru's soft-body-modification. Whether this is true or not, IDK, but if it is indeed the case it certainly opens up a host dangerous applications for the Ksunagi-Sword, which could be troublesome for enemies. Whether that's true or not, it's still very plausible that Orochimaru has other tricks with the Ksunagi sword we have not seen.

Am I saying Ei certainly can't handle this, no, because that would be going too-much in the direct of feats, i'm just saying the Ksunagi sword has considerable hype behind it and it being designed after an imperial regalia of Japan doesn't hurt it's portrayal ether. So I find it a bit underrated.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 2, 2014)

> One thing I want to say here is that Ksunagi Sword can extent to insane lengths, it's reach is extended to an even more insane degree when Orochimaru use soft-body-modification in conjunction with it, it can be remote controlled with a mere finger motion to move autonomously, or suddenly shot out of Orochimaru's mouth at a moments notice.
> 
> So it's not like someone who wishes to evade Ksunagi simply has to be faster than Orochimaru can slash with the sword, they have to be so much faster that they can consistently escape it's absolutely absurd radius which it's reach covers. Additionally they  have to be aware of it's ability to move autonomously and Orochimaru's ability to suddenly produce it from his mouth; or have the ability to defend/sense/etc... surprise assualts. This is a tall order for anyone.


The sword extends at a slower rate than Amaterasu- there is no argument suggesting otherwise. 

Ei dodged that from less than 15m away, and his speed outpaced the perception of MS Sasuke- who was probably faster than Orochimaru.

Are you trying to suggest that Kusanagi is more difficult to avoid than Amaterasu- that is, black flames that appear wherever the user's eyes are looking? 



> Than there is also the theory I've seen floated around that Ksunagi can actually absorb the properties of Ninjutsu, and the reason it had the ability to extend is because it absorbed the properties of Orochimaru's soft-body-modification. Whether this is true or not, IDK, but if it is indeed the case it certainly opens up a host dangerous applications for the Ksunagi-Sword, which could be troublesome for enemies. Whether that's true or not, it's still very plausible that Orochimaru has other tricks with the Ksunagi sword we have not seen.


That's clearly not true. 



> Am I saying Ei certainly can't handle this, no, because that would be going too-much in the direct of feats, i'm just saying the Ksunagi sword has considerable hype behind it and it being designed after an imperial regalia of Japan doesn't hurt it's portrayal ether. So I find it a bit underrated.


The name Chidori comes from a story about famous samurai Tachibana Dōsetsu (立花道雪, Tachibana Dōsetsu) (22 April 1513–2 November 1585). Tachibana was in possession of a famous sword called Chidori (千鳥; Literally meaning "A Thousand Birds"). One day, while he was still a young man, he was taking shelter under a tree, as it was raining. Suddenly, a bolt of lightning struck him. However, Tachibana used his Chidori to cut the Thunder God inside the lightning bolt, allowing him to survive. After this incident, he renamed his Chidori to Raikiri (雷切; Literally meaning "Lightning Cutter").

Yeah, Chidori is clearly on the same level as Kusanagi as far as outside portrayal is considered.


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## Fiiction (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> .Or the sword won't do any major damage.



And why is that?


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## ARGUS (Apr 2, 2014)

A wins this high diff


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## SharinganKisame (Apr 2, 2014)

Ei is clearly faster,stronger and better in CQC than Oro but, the thing is..*nothing* in his arsenal is enough to kill Oro. Oral rebirth spam will be required but he can get out of any situations.

Orochimaru's life goal is to become immortal(which he kinda is) and to know every secrets of ninjutsu so I bet he'll pull something out of his sleeve and kill Ei with snakes or whatever.

IMO Oro wins mid-diff just because Ei is fast as hell.


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2014)

@DaVizWiz

You seem to have missed the point, it's not an issue of the extending speed. It's an issue of Orochimaru slashing about a sword with an insane reach and Ei having to consistently evade it, which means ether jumping or creating a massive distance between himself and Orochimaru. Than there are the surprise factors from Ksunagi, that I spoke of. 

As for the comparison between Amaterasu and Ksunagi in terms of difficult to evade. Circumstance is key to deciding that.



> That's clearly not true.


If you don't believe in the theory it's fine, but Orochimaru having more tricks with Ksunagi or using it in conjunction with more Jutsu to creat different combo's; is almost a certainty.



> The name Chidori comes from a story about famous samurai Tachibana Dōsetsu (立花道雪, Tachibana Dōsetsu) (22 April 1513–2 November 1585). Tachibana was in possession of a famous sword called Chidori (千鳥; Literally meaning "A Thousand Birds"). One day, while he was still a young man, he was taking shelter under a tree, as it was raining. Suddenly, a bolt of lightning struck him. However, Tachibana used his Chidori to cut the Thunder God inside the lightning bolt, allowing him to survive. After this incident, he renamed his Chidori to Raikiri (雷切; Literally meaning "Lightning Cutter").


Sorry but lightning god is not equivalent to Ksunagi-Sword. Ksunagi-Sword was a weapon that even Susano'o a much higher god acknowledged was incredibly powerful and it's power was enough to make Yamata No Orochi grow so stronger that again Susano'o a much more powerful god need to use trickery to win. It's also thee imperial regalia of Japan, which is far beyond the stature of the Chidori blade.


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## Mithos (Apr 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That's draining on his stamina, and if this comes to who tires first, I'm taking the guy with Biju tier stamina to win the match.



I didn't say otherwise. But I mentioned Oro has other methods to defend himself with in my post. The combination of that and his other jutsu should allow him to take Ei down before he's exhausted from regenerating. 



> Rashomon isn't a blitz-prevention Jutsu. It requires drawing blood (which consumes time much like hand-seals), and actually summoning the Gates. That isn't faster than the Raikage can flicker, so unless Orochimaru _preemptively _summons to block LOS, they won't be a factor.



I was talking about him pre-emptively summoning as blitz-prevention. I know Oro will not be able to react and summon the gate(s) in time. But after he finds out about the Raikage's speed, he should be able to erect the Rashoumon before he gets attacked again. 



> Raikage oneshots Manda just like Sakura broke that centipede. Ei's strength cracked Susano'o and had KCM Naruto fearful of direct blows.



Raikage hit Juugo twice and it didn't kill him. He's not putting Manda down that easily. 




> There's like five or six speed tiers in between the Raikage & Manda. Orocimaru himslef is much faster than the snake. Though Manda may be one of the more agile animal summons, none of them really compare to anyone on the Kage tier (except maybe Gaara) in terms if speed, especially not roof-tier speed specialists.



I don't know how you're coming to the conclusion Manda is slower than Orochimaru to be honest. Tsunade was surprised when Manda dodged the acid and wrapped around Katsuyu so quickly. Manda was also fast enough to shed his skin as the fire came on him and get underground before being burned. The snake is fast and can cover more distance more quickly than Oro can. 

Ei is faster than Manda, clearly, but Manda will improve Oro's mobility nontheless. 

Gamabunta has mobility than can rival some Kage level ninja as well because of how high and far he can jump at once allows him to cover more distance more quickly than most ninja. He can't get short bursts of speed as fast as the Kage, but overall his mobility allows him to keep up. 



> Orochimaru isn't going to lay a finger on the Raikage at any point in this battle. That Futon will never connect. KCM Naruto (who is tiers upon tiers faster than Orochimaru) struggled to land Rasenshuriken on Sandaime Raikage (who is slower than Ei), despite being able to guide it.



Fuuton jutsu generally cover a large AoE so I don't think Ei is going to avoid them forever. Especially not with his inclination to charge in all the time. With Manda, Rashoumon and regurgitated snakes on the field slowing down his approach, Oro can get some Fuutons off. 



> Orochimaru has zero, I repeat ZERO chance of landing it up front. His chances increase to incredibly minimal with use of some sort of trick.



You can keep saying that but your argument hasn't been convincing to be honest. Sure if Oro just tries to launch attack after attack at Ei and Ei focues on dodging then he won't get touched. But when Ei has to approach and get past thousands of snakes, move around a Rashoumon gate, and maybe get airborne to reach Oro on Manda, he'll have openings. 




> He'll dodge the sword....
> 
> Or the sword won't do any major damage.



If the shroud is gone it will. Tell me how he dodges the Kusanagis coming from thousands of snakes around him? 

Sasuke was able to react to the Raikage on numerous occasions and counter-attack. Orochimaru is not going to be incapable of landing hits. 

Ei also has no answer to Yamata no Orochi.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 3, 2014)

> You seem to have missed the point, it's not an issue of the extending speed. It's an issue of Orochimaru slashing about a sword with an insane reach and Ei having to consistently evade it, which means ether jumping or creating a massive distance between himself and Orochimaru. Than there are the surprise factors from Ksunagi, that I spoke of.


I clearly did not miss the point. 

He doesn't have to _constantly_ evade anything, he can blitz Orochimaru at will, and destroy the sword at will by cutting through it casually. 

MS Sasuke could not even _perceive_ his movement speed. He mine as well just have been invisible. 

Are you suggesting that Orochimaru will perceive his speed, and force the 4th Raikage to consistently dodge _his_ attacks?

You're out of your mind man. Orochimaru is no where near the speed level of Ei. 



> As for the comparison between Amaterasu and Ksunagi in terms of difficult to evade. Circumstance is key to deciding that.


No, there's absolutely no argument suggesting Kusanagi as more difficult to escape than Amaterasu. It's faster by feats and is controlled by only ocular tracking. 

In Sasuke's instance, he didn't even need to look to manipulate Amaterasu, he could light objects behind, above and below him without looking behind, above or below himself. Something that appears somewhere nearly instantly without a hint that it will appear there beforehand is clearly one of the most unpredictable and unavoidable techniques in the manga.  



> If you don't believe in the theory it's fine, but Orochimaru having more tricks with Ksunagi or using it in conjunction with more Jutsu to creat different combo's; is almost a certainty.


No, it's not almost a certainty. It's a fucking sword, what combinations could he manifest at this point?

Blow a wind current and throw the sword? Lol 



> Sorry but lightning god is not equivalent to Ksunagi-Sword. Ksunagi-Sword was a weapon that even Susano'o a much higher god acknowledged was incredibly powerful and it's power was enough to make Yamata No Orochi grow so stronger that again Susano'o a much more powerful god need to use trickery to win. It's also thee imperial regalia of Japan, which is far beyond the stature of the Chidori blade.


The sword cut the lightning god and forced him away..

It cut lightning....

Do provide another variant of matter in the universe that would be more difficult to cut...


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> The combination of that and his other jutsu should allow him to take Ei down before he's exhausted from regenerating.



This is the problem.

It doesn't...



> I was talking about him pre-emptively summoning as blitz-prevention. I know Oro will not be able to react and summon the gate(s) in time. But after he finds out about the Raikage's speed, he should be able to erect the Rashoumon before he gets attacked again.



Rashomon may prevent one blitz, and they also block Orochimaru view and would prevent any counter attack.

From there, since the gates don't move around, they become useless walls.



> Raikage hit Juugo twice and it didn't kill him. He's not putting Manda down that easily.



His first hit put a hole in Juugo and his second knocked him out. If he puts a hole in Manda or knocks Manda out, Manda is taken care of. 

I also don't know when Madara become more durable or resilient than CS2 Juugo. Seriously, Ei grabs Manda and swings him at Orochimaru like a bat. Even the weaker Sage Mode Naruto could toss around boss summons like fodder. 



> I don't know how you're coming to the conclusion Manda is slower than Orochimaru to be honest.



Manda cannot use the body flicker. Madara can cover more ground because it's much bigger, but it isn't faster than Orochimaru..



> Gamabunta has mobility than can rival some Kage level ninja as well because of how high and far he can jump at once allows him to cover more distance more quickly than most ninja. He can't get short bursts of speed as fast as the Kage, but overall his mobility allows him to keep up.



It also presents situations where a Kage can just dodge the rather sluggish attacks of a summon and counter-attack point blank in their face. Look at Tendo vs. _all three boss toads._



> Fuuton jutsu generally cover a large AoE so I don't think Ei is going to avoid them forever. Especially not with his inclination to charge in all the time. With Manda, Rashoumon and regurgitated snakes on the field slowing down his approach, Oro can get some Fuutons off.



Not all Futon jutsu cover large AoE, and the C-Rank one Orochimaru used didn't appear any larger than Jugo's Laser Cannon that Ei dodged in v1 *point blank.*

You have yet to explain how Manda & fodder snakes will slow Ei. They can't restrain him, and whenever Orochimaru goes to form the seals for Futon, Ei will just prepare himself to dodge (not that he couldn't rely on his natural reflexes anyway). 



> You can keep saying that but your argument hasn't been convincing to be honest. Sure if Oro just tries to launch attack after attack at Ei and Ei focues on dodging then he won't get touched. But when Ei has to approach and get past thousands of snakes, move around a Rashoumon gate, and maybe get airborne to reach Oro on Manda, he'll have openings.



 You act as if all of those techniques just flow so well together and form such fluid combinations. 

The only technique in Orochimaru's arsenal that won't just bounce off Ei is..._presumably_...that random Futon. Those snakes get ignored, Manda gets ignored, and Rashomon blocks Orochimaru from hitting the Raikage as much as it blocks Ei from hitting Oro. _None_ of those can combo in a way that allows for Orochimaru to connect any more easily than normal.

Sasuke couldn't even hit the Raikage with a technique that spawns on sight (_Sharingan_ sight), and yet Orochimaru is going to back Ei down and connect with that featless Futon? His method of cornering him is....fodder snakes? Manda?



> If the shroud is gone it will. Tell me how he dodges the Kusanagis coming from thousands of snakes around him?



Reactivate the shroud or just use his Base speed. What feats do those snakes have other than getting obliterated by KN4 with a swipe of the arm? 



> Sasuke was able to react to the Raikage on numerous occasions and counter-attack. Orochimaru is not going to be incapable of landing hits.
> 
> Ei also has no answer to Yamata no Orochi.



Mangekyou Sasuke is ridiculously faster than Orochimaru.  He also reacted only to Ei's v1 flicker; his Sharingan was helpless against the Raikage's full power.

Ei can just fight Yamata no Orochi until Orochimaru has exhausted all of his Chakra, similar to how his father wrestled a giant Biju.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> He doesn't have to _constantly_ evade anything, he can blitz Orochimaru at will, and destroy the sword at will by cutting through it casually.


What has Ei done that makes you think he can casually cut through Ksunagi-Sword.



> MS Sasuke could not even perceive his movement speed. He mine as well just have been invisible.


You don't need to see someone's movements if you attack covers a massive area.



> Are you suggesting that Orochimaru will perceive his speed, and force the 4th Raikage to consistently dodge his attacks?


Ei does not use R2-Shunshin-Speed at all times.



> You're out of your mind man. Orochimaru is no where near the speed level of Ei.


Your talking R2-Shunshin-Speed, which he doesn't use consistently.



> No, there's absolutely no argument suggesting Kusanagi as more difficult to escape than Amaterasu. It's faster by feats and is controlled by only ocular tracking.
> 
> In Sasuke's instance, he didn't even need to look to manipulate Amaterasu, he could light objects behind, above and below him without looking behind, above or below himself. Something that appears somewhere nearly instantly without a hint that it will appear there beforehand is clearly one of the most unpredictable and unavoidable techniques in the manga.


I'm sorry, but this is simply a narrow minded view, that leads to incorrect conclusions. If Ksunagi comes from behind Ei, without him being aware the sword is there [or can be remote controlled], that is going to be more difficult for Ei to dodge than Ei knowing an MS-Tech is coming and having time to pump his shroud in anticipation of it. There are tons of other examples. 

Again which is easier to dodge depends on circumstance.



> No, it's not almost a certainty. It's a fucking sword, what combinations could he manifest at this point?
> 
> Blow a wind current and throw the sword? Lol


Orochimaru has mastered tons of Jutsu, your really asking me to tell you ever possible Jutsu Orochimaru could have mastered and could combo well with Ksunagi? If so were going to be here a really long time. However i'll throw out one really obvious one, that Orochimaru can probably do; Fuuton-Chakra Flow through Ksunagi, enabling it to pierce through Raiton no Yoroi no problem. 



> The sword cut the lightning god and forced him away..
> 
> It cut lightning....
> 
> Do provide another variant of matter in the universe that would be more difficult to cut...


First off Ksunagi cut Enma when in his staff form. The name of Enma's staff form relates to Indra's Vajra weapon, which is mythology wields the power of a lighting bolt. So yeah Ksunagi has that hype under it's belt as well. Not to mention from an in cannon perspective it cut Enma's staff which is said to be as hard as diamonds; what has Chidori cut that's that tough? It's also said to control the power of the wind

Plus no of this matters as Ksunagi-Sword is the greatest Sword in Japanese history/myth, there is a reason why it's a regalia


----------



## Mithos (Apr 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Rashomon may prevent one blitz, and they also block Orochimaru view and would prevent any counter attack.
> 
> From there, since the gates don't move around, they become useless walls.



Orochimaru can summon thousands of snakes that can attack independently so Ei does not have to be in his LoS to attack. Orochimaru can also scale the Rashoumon gates and and launch long range attacks while his snakes go after Ei. Sure Ei can follow him up, but he can't use his insane speed while he climbs them. 

They're not "useless walls" if Orochimaru doesn't want them to be. 



> His first hit put a hole in Juugo and his second knocked him out. If he puts a hole in Manda or knocks Manda out, Manda is taken care of.



Manda is much bigger and durable than Juugo is. What knocks Juugo out or puts a hole in him isn't necessarily going to do the same to Manda. 



> I also don't know when Madara become more durable or resilient than CS2 Juugo. Seriously, Ei grabs Manda and swings him at Orochimaru like a bat. Even the weaker Sage Mode Naruto could toss around boss summons like fodder.


 
Manda is larger than that Rhino, and Ei does not have lifting feats to suggest he could do that. Not to mention Manda is not going to let him do it. If he gets grabbed he's going to attack with his other end - either his tail or his mouth, depending on how Ei grabs him. Snakes are flexible. And what exactly is tossing Manda going to do? If Ei can even toss him it's not going to be hard enough to take him out. 



> Manda cannot use the body flicker. Madara can cover more ground because it's much bigger, but it isn't faster than Orochimaru..



The fact that it can cover more ground makes it faster. Yes it's because of his size, but that doesn't matter: what does is that Manda can cross a distance before Orochimaru could do the same. Manda doesn't need shunshin. 



> It also presents situations where a Kage can just dodge the rather sluggish attacks of a summon and counter-attack point blank in their face. Look at Tendo vs. _all three boss toads._



Tendo has a jutsu that can repel any attack/attacker with the forces of gravity. Ei has no such ability so that's irrelevent. 



> Not all Futon jutsu cover large AoE, and the C-Rank one Orochimaru used didn't appear any larger than Jugo's Laser Cannon that Ei dodged in v1 *point blank.*



I doubt Orochimaru only knows one fuuton jutsu. He's a ninjutsu specialist who attained immortality so he would have the time to continue to master ninjutsu. It's logical to assume he has more. 



> You have yet to explain how Manda & fodder snakes will slow Ei. They can't restrain him, and whenever Orochimaru goes to form the seals for Futon, Ei will just prepare himself to dodge (not that he couldn't rely on his natural reflexes anyway).



Well charging through a sea of snakes with kusanagis protruding from their mouths is a bad idea. His shroud isn't going to protect him from that many kusanagis. He's going to get cut up. 



> You act as if all of those techniques just flow so well together and form such fluid combinations.



And you act as if Orochimaru and his thousands of snakes will only take turns as if it's a battle from Final Fantasy and it's turn-based. Keeping track of a boss summon, thousands of snakes and the summoner is not going to be easy, especially since the summon can go underground or meld into the surroundings and attack with kusanagi from underground. 



> The only technique in Orochimaru's arsenal that won't just bounce off Ei is..._presumably_...that random Futon. Those snakes get ignored, Manda gets ignored, and Rashomon blocks Orochimaru from hitting the Raikage as much as it blocks Ei from hitting Oro. _None_ of those can combo in a way that allows for Orochimaru to connect any more easily than normal.
> 
> Sasuke couldn't even hit the Raikage with a technique that spawns on sight (_Sharingan_ sight), and yet Orochimaru is going to back Ei down and connect with that featless Futon? His method of cornering him is....fodder snakes? Manda?



The Kusanagi is not going to bounce off Ei. It might not do full damage but if Chidori can pierce the shroud I don't see why the Kusanagi no Tsuruugi, which has been hyped for its piercing power, is going to do nothing. 

Snakes with Kusanagis are not going to be ignored. Unless Ei wants to test his shroud against thousands of kusanagis at once. Ignoring Manda would also be a bad idea; he might not be able to kill Ei but he could knock him around. 

His method is distraction by numbers, which is better than Ei's strategy of just rushing in considering Oro has a bunch of different ways to prevent it. 



> Reactivate the shroud or just use his Base speed. What feats do those snakes have other than getting obliterated by KN4 with a swipe of the arm?



They don't need many feats. We know they have their own kusanagis which is enough to make them dangerous. Ei also lacks an AoE that can wipe them out. 



> Mangekyou Sasuke is ridiculously faster than Orochimaru.  He also reacted only to Ei's v1 flicker; his Sharingan was helpless against the Raikage's full power.



I wouldn't say MS Sasuke is "ridiculously" faster, and he was able to dodge an  attack and counter early in the fight. The idea that Sasuke can hit, and damage, Ei but Oro with thousands of snakes, Manda, and possible surprise attacks with LAC can't is crazy. 



> Ei can just fight Yamata no Orochi until Orochimaru has exhausted all of his Chakra, similar to how his father wrestled a giant Biju.



Ei can't do much meaningful damage to the Yamata. And anything he does do is countered by white snake regeneration. Meanwhile I doubt Ei can just tank all the bites; and Oro can still attack with the Kusanagi. 

I really think you're overestimating Ei's durability and ability to avoid being hit, while at the same time dismissing how difficult it is to deal with multiple opponents at once.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> Orochimaru can summon thousands of snakes that can attack independently so Ei does not have to be in his LoS to attack. Orochimaru can also scale the Rashoumon gates and and launch long range attacks while his snakes go after Ei. Sure Ei can follow him up, but he can't use his insane speed while he climbs them.
> 
> They're not "useless walls" if Orochimaru doesn't want them to be.



Ninja can walk on whatever they want using Chakra, so I honestly don't see how the Raikage's speed will be hindered if Orochimaru actually climbs Rashomon.

And as I said (and will continue to say until panels are provided that prove me wrong), fodder snakes, no matter how numerous, are not going to bother the Raikage. He will barrel through them and their featless swords will not do a damn thing.



> Manda is much bigger and durable than Juugo is. What knocks Juugo out or puts a hole in him isn't necessarily going to do the same to Manda.



Manda is larger, but I'm still not sure how he is more durable. The Raikage will just speed blitz and cut Manda in half (or severely injure it) with Raigyaku Suihei like he did Shin Suusenju's fist.



> The fact that it can cover more ground makes it faster. Yes it's because of his size, but that doesn't matter: what does is that Manda can cross a distance before Orochimaru could do the same. Manda doesn't need shunshin.



Speed also involves reflexes, but I really don't feel like getting into it. Ei is capable of blitzing both..



> I doubt Orochimaru only knows one fuuton jutsu. He's a ninjutsu specialist who attained immortality so he would have the time to continue to master ninjutsu. It's logical to assume he has more.



Let's not make up feats. I would love to give the Raikage ranged Raiton because he's a Raiton specialist, but I'm not going to do that.



> Well charging through a sea of snakes with kusanagis protruding from their mouths is a bad idea. His shroud isn't going to protect him from that many kusanagis. He's going to get cut up.



Swords bounce off the Raikage. Hell, swords enhanced by Raiton bounce off the Raikage. He is going to take no damage. 

The swords the fodder snakes posses may not even be the Kusanagi sword, as Orochimaru only has one. There's no proof that they are actually blades that posses the same abilities as the real Kusanagi.



> And you act as if Orochimaru and his thousands of snakes will only take turns as if it's a battle from Final Fantasy and it's turn-based. Keeping track of a boss summon, thousands of snakes and the summoner is not going to be easy, especially since the summon can go underground or meld into the surroundings and attack with kusanagi from underground.



Ei needs to keep track of one thing; Orochimaru. Like I've been saying, everything else....bounces off. 

You've largely played off Ei's speed as something Orochimaru can deal with, when it isn't. Once v2 comes out, Orochimaru looses all hope of keeping up. He quite literally wouldn't know what hit him.

Orochimaru may try all of this fodder snake shit before Ei actually powers up, but it isn't going to do anything other than piss the Raikage off. He isn't running out of Chakra, not with BIJUU levels of it.



> The Kusanagi is not going to bounce off Ei. It might not do full damage but if Chidori can pierce the shroud I don't see why the Kusanagi no Tsuruugi, which has been hyped for its piercing power, is going to do nothing.



"Hyped for its piercing power" doesn't mean anything to me. So are Chidori & Raikiri. Mabui's transfer technique was hyped for it's shredding power too. It didn't even _cut_ the fucking guy.

Kusanagi failed to pierce KN4, and it failed to pierce Staff-form Enma, so it obviously doesn't "cut through anything." Provide a feat for Kusanagi that proves it's any sharper than Sasuke's Chidorigatana, and I'll concede to the Raikage possibly getting scratched. 



> Ignoring Manda would also be a bad idea; he might not be able to kill Ei but he could knock him around.



So? Ei will get up from that, speed blitz, and slit Manda's throat with a back-hand Raiton chop. No more Manda.



> His method is distraction by numbers, which is better than Ei's strategy of just rushing in considering Oro has a bunch of different ways to prevent it.



Rushing in is a perfectly viable tactic when combined with TOP-TIER speed. This isn't target practice for Orochimaru. The Raikage will actively be attempting to bring the fight into CQC, and all you do is claim that fodder snakes and Manda have a magical way to prevent that from happening without telling me what they'll actually do.

Orochimaru doesn't have anything to deal with those flickers like Susano'o Sasuke could. He has Rashomon, and Ei will just go around/scale the gates to where Orochimaru is and the two will continue fighting....



> They don't need many feats. We know they have their own kusanagis which is enough to make them dangerous. Ei also lacks an AoE that can wipe them out.



They carried swords that were unconfirmed to be original Kusanagi. Sasuke has a Kusanagi sword that doesn't have the same power as the original, remember?



> I wouldn't say MS Sasuke is "ridiculously" faster, and he was able to dodge an  attack and counter early in the fight. The idea that Sasuke can hit, and damage, Ei but Oro with thousands of snakes, Manda, and possible surprise attacks with LAC can't is crazy.



Sharingan Sasuke avoided B in midair, avoided Ei, outright speed blitzed Naruto in the *beginning* of part 2, came within inches of blitzing Deidara in half....

Oh he's ridiculously extremely massively incredibly unquestionably faster than Orochimaru, and Sasuke landed one hit on Ei by ducking him at the last possible second. In v2, Sauce couldn't touch him at all, even with "unavoidable" techniques.

Orochimaru has to rely on fodder snakes and Manda to create some sort of unexplained opening for him to land a Futon that isn't even guaranteed to disable the Raikage's cloak. 





> Ei can't do much meaningful damage to the Yamata. And anything he does do is countered by white snake regeneration. Meanwhile I doubt Ei can just tank all the bites; and Oro can still attack with the Kusanagi.





Yes, yes Ei can tank all of the bites. Does Yamta no Orochi bite with comparable penetrative force to Chidori or even Chidorigatana? 

No. Not even close. Ei outlasts Yamata casually; Orochimaru doesn't have comparable Chakra to Biju.



> I really think you're overestimating Ei's durability and ability to avoid being hit, while at the same time dismissing how difficult it is to deal with multiple opponents at once.



No, I'm literally calling you out on this blatant overestimation of the Mandara no Jin technique that gave 4-Tailed Naruto absolutely no difficulty at all. He didn't even use Bijudama, he just waved his arm and killed them all.

Remember when Part 2 Sasuke soloed 1000 actual _Shinobi_ without being touched? And the Raikage himself will struggle with snakes? Give me a break.


----------



## Nikushimi (Apr 3, 2014)

The 4th Raikage blitzes and plucks Orochimaru like a chicken.


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## Thunder (Apr 3, 2014)

Mandara no Jin is no hindrance to Ē. He'll plow right through it.  They are useful for distraction purposes I guess, but I wouldn't bet on them  actually accomplishing anything on their own, aside from being an  annoyance.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 3, 2014)

A rapes pretty hard. Orochimaru can't harm him nor he is skilled or fast enough to deal with him in CQC. A continuously pummels Orochimaru till he is nothing but a puddle of meat.



jplaya2023 said:


> If *Steven (A's real name)* hit's him once the fight is over. If not oro has a shot as long as he uses that big wall to defend himself


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2014)

If people think Ei is beating Orochimaru let alone stomping him, Ei is becoming one of the most overrated characters. I mean what has Kishi really shown Ei do in the manga. 

Ei vs Sasuke - Looking at the battle objectively, thee best interpretation of that battle for Ei, would be that he was going to defeat beginner-MS Sasuke, at the expense of become permanently handicapped. Than when Sasuke just advanced his Susano'o one level higher, Ei was already totally outclassed and on the ropes.

Ei vs Killer B - Thee best interpretation of that battle for Ei, would be that Base-B bested Ei, but Ei didn't use quite his fastest/best attack, but nether did Base-B

Ei vs Minato -  Really no good interpretation here, he was solidly bested at every turn

Ei vs KCM-Naruto - Again solidly bested.

Ei vs Madara - Again once Madara even began to use Susano'o a little bit he need Onoki's help to do anything; here Madara even reacted w/o Susano'o enough to block his blows

Really do not see how people are coming to these conclusions that Ei is suppose to be seen as so much stronger than Orochimaru, his performance really has not been that great in the manga


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## Bonly (Apr 3, 2014)

animeboy1 said:


> I'll restrict the white snake blood poison, for a better match up.



And with that I now favor A after a long battle.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 3, 2014)

> What has Ei done that makes you think he can casually cut through Ksunagi-Sword.


He elbowed through Susano, chopped through Spiral Zetsu's Buddha arm in base, chopped off the horn of Gyuki, the 8 tailed bijuu, and split Zabuza's blade in half with pure strength. 

Is Kusanagi more durable than any of those? 

Please provide feats in your response. 



> You don't need to see someone's movements if you attack covers a massive area.


What do you mean?

Kusanagi is a point-point attack, it's a normal sized sword that simply extends. 



> Ei does not use R2-Shunshin-Speed at all times.


Are you suggesting he'd go at Orochimaru, a Sannin in V1? 



> Your talking R2-Shunshin-Speed, which he doesn't use consistently.


Are you serious man? 

That's your argument now? 



> I'm sorry, but this is simply a narrow minded view, that leads to incorrect conclusions. If Ksunagi comes from behind Ei, without him being aware the sword is there [or can be remote controlled], that is going to be more difficult for Ei to dodge than Ei knowing an MS-Tech is coming and having time to pump his shroud in anticipation of it. There are tons of other examples.


How the fuck would it come from behind him? Are you suggesting he would choose to turn around and let Orochimaru strike him?  

If Sasuke was fucking behind him and released Amaterasu he also wouldn't know it was behind him.

You make no fucking sense. 



> Again which is easier to dodge depends on circumstance.


No it does not, if he's aware of the attack then Amaterasu is more difficult to dodge. 



> Orochimaru has mastered tons of Jutsu, your really asking me to tell you ever possible Jutsu Orochimaru could have mastered and could combo well with Ksunagi? If so were going to be here a really long time. However i'll throw out one really obvious one, that Orochimaru can probably do; Fuuton-Chakra Flow through Ksunagi, enabling it to pierce through Raiton no Yoroi no problem.


Orochimaru has mastered only what he has shown.

I asked you what more could he possibly do with a blade that's only meant to cut better than a normal blade?



> First off Ksunagi cut Enma when in his staff form. The name of Enma's staff form relates to Indra's Vajra weapon, which is mythology wields the power of a lighting bolt. So yeah Ksunagi has that hype under it's belt as well. Not to mention from an in cannon perspective it cut Enma's staff which is said to be as hard as diamonds; what has Chidori cut that's that tough? It's also said to control the power of the wind


Enma was never cut by Kusanagi.

Enma is not a lightning bolt, Kakashi cut a lightning bolt.

Kakashi cut through Jinchuriki chakra, which Kusanagi could not. 

Right there is where Chidori proved it's superiority. 



> Plus no of this matters as Ksunagi-Sword is the greatest Sword in Japanese history/myth, there is a reason why it's a regalia


It's clearly not as this manga has characters suggesting Chidori can cut _anything_, including lightning.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> If people think Ei is beating Orochimaru let alone stomping him, Ei is becoming one of the most overrated characters. I mean what has Kishi really shown Ei do in the manga.



I think he was actually portrayed well. Kishi gave him the spotlight against Taka at the Summit, and he decisively stomped Juugo while injuring/tiring MS Sauce, despite Sasuke being a terrible match-up for anyone CQC oriented.

He also was made General of the alliance, which was.....a pretty fucking important position, and was the final test for KCM Naruto before entering the War to fight top tiers.



> Ei vs Sasuke - Looking at the battle objectively, thee best interpretation of that battle for Ei, would be that he was going to defeat beginner-MS Sasuke, at the expense of become permanently handicapped. Than when Sasuke just advanced his Susano'o one high level Ei was already totally outclassed and on the ropes.
> 
> Ei vs Killer B - Thee best interpretation of that battle for Ei, would be that Base-B bested Ei, but Ei didn't use quite his fastest/best attack, but nether did Base-B
> 
> ...



Take one look at the Raikage's opponents, and you'll quickly realize that all are more powerful than Orochimaru. I would place all above the Raikage on a tier list as well. 

It's funny that you're looking at feats and performances here though.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I think he was actually portrayed well.


Portrayed well and portrayed to the standard where he's stomping Orochimaru, are two different things entirely. 



> Kishi gave him the spotlight against Taka at the Summit, and he decisively stomped Juugo


Come on dude, to quote danzo; Orochimaru is as far above Juugo as heaven is above the earth.



> while injuring/tiring MS Sauce, despite Sasuke being a terrible match-up for anyone CQC oriented.


If you want to take this tact; your essentially arguing hat Ei has got nothing worthwhile [relative to Kage-level] in terms of long-mid range abilities; which means he is the most limited Kage of all, and that too is not a favorable portrayal.



> He also was made General of the alliance, which was.....a pretty fucking important position, and was the final test for KCM Naruto before entering the War to fight top tiers.


Which is why I thought Kishi was going to give him a badass portrayal in the war and make up an excuse to justify his performance against Sasuke; like he was too emotional and not thinking straight. However ultimately Ei's position as Alliance-Leader,  at least has been to this point, relegated to the role of figure head and little else. Ei was over-shadowed by Onoki & Tsunade [one could even make the argument Gaara and Mei were more useful], was relegated to the role of hype mechanism for other characters [the most offensive of which being Base-B], and even as commander strategically was usurped by the Nara's & company. 

So as of now it seems Kishi  truly gave him the title for political reasons alone.

Mabye that will change and quite honestly I hope it does because Kishi has treated Ei very badly [relative to his standings] in the war.



> Take one look at the Raikage's opponents, and you'll quickly realize that all are more powerful than Orochimaru. I would place all above the Raikage on a tier list as well.


Minato is above Orochimaru, I agree there, but I don't think he is as much higher as people believe, at least until he got Kurama. KCM-Naruto is in a similar boat, i'd imagine, though harder to rate him as he's always some how spread thin. These battles weren't even close though.

Beginner MS-Sasuke, I see nothing to indicate he is above Orochimaru, and no way Base-B is. These were the closer battles.

Madara obviously is, but only using Stage 1 [1 1/2] Susano'o, I have my serious doubts.



> It's funny that you're looking at feats and performances here though.


What feats am I looking at? I'm looking at performance in terms of accomplishments, which goes towards portrayal.



DaVizWiz said:


> He elbowed through Susano, chopped through Spiral Zetsu's Buddha arm in base, chopped off the horn of Gyuki, the 8 tailed bijuu, and split Zabuza's blade in half with pure strength.
> .


How do we know Kishi does not consider Ksunagi more durable than these things? And before you ask, I am more than willing to admit, that there is nothing that proves it is more durable [except in the case of Zabuza's blade, which I feel is common-sense], but my point is simply that we don't know.



> Is Kusanagi more durable than any of those?
> 
> Please provide feats in your response.


If you haven't noticed I give no shits about feats. What's important to me is portrayal and so far the upper-limits of Ksunagi's durability have not been portrayed in the manga-cannon. So again the only conclusion we can come to, is we don't know whether or not it is more durable than these things.



> What do you mean?
> 
> Kusanagi is a point-point attack, it's a normal sized sword that simply extends.


It can be slashed 360-degrees; can it not?



> Are you suggesting he'd go at Orochimaru, a Sannin in V1?


He went at someone he believes captured Killer B in R1. So, yeah, I doubt he'd be spamming his R2 Shunshin the entire match.



> How the fuck would it come from behind him? Are you suggesting he would choose to turn around and let Orochimaru strike him?


The same way it cam from behind Hiruzen. The sword can be remote controlled by Orochimaru. So Orochimaru can control it to strike Ei from behind without him being aware, it even has that ability.



> If Sasuke was fucking behind him and released Amaterasu he also wouldn't know it was behind him.
> 
> You make no fucking sense.


The difference being that with Sasuke, Amaterasu comes from his eyes and Ei knows it. So Ei can simply focus on Sasuke's location at all times, not allowing him to get behind him. With the Ksunagi, he wouldn't know to follow it's movements, because he doesn't know it can be remote controlled.



> No it does not, if he's aware of the attack then Amaterasu is more difficult to dodge.


That's the thing, how is going to be aware Orochimaru can remote control the sword?



> Orochimaru has mastered only what he has shown.


Please prove that someone obsessed with mastering all Jutsu, has only mastered the Jutsu he's shown. Because to me that sounds like total BS.



> I asked you what more could he possibly do with a blade that's only meant to cut better than a normal blade?


And I told you, one example out of many that are possible.



> Enma was never cut by Kusanagi.


He was hurt by the blade, I assume that means it was cutting him, unless you think the blunt force was hurting a diamond hard staff, which is even more ridiculous.



> Enma is not a lightning bolt, Kakashi cut a lightning bolt.


Kakashi's Rarikiri did that, not Chidori.



> Kakashi cut through Jinchuriki chakra, which Kusanagi could not.


Kakashi's Raiden did that, not Chidori. 
Kakashi's Raiden cut through the Chakra arms, not the body. 



> Right there is where Chidori proved it's superiority.


If only Chidori was Rarikiri/Raiden and Chakra-Arm was Chakra-Body........than you'd be right.



> It's clearly not as this manga has characters suggesting Chidori can cut anything, including lightning.


We've seen Chidori can't cut through anything, so that's pointless.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Portrayed well and portrayed to the standard where he's stomping Orochimaru, are two different things entirely.



I never said he stomps Orochimaru. However, Orochimaru has his poison restricted and Ei has a good match up. Who's superior portrayal wise isn't clear and don't pretend you can prove it's clear.



> If you want to take this tact; your essentially arguing hat Ei has got nothing worthwhile [relative to Kage-level] in terms of long-mid range abilities; which means he is the most limited Kage of all, and that too is not a favorable portrayal.



It doesn't really matter if he's limited at range. He's a _Nintaijutsu _master. Don't you see where Kishimoto was going with the character?

He's been granted fantastic speed to close distances and possibly interrupt Ninjutsu that require seals. You also have to get close to him in order to connect, as he proved he can avoid even point blank attacks in just v1.



> Ei was over-shadowed by Onoki & Tsunade [one could even make the argument Gaara and Mei were more useful], was relegated to the role of hype mechanism for other characters [the most offensive of which being Base-B], and even as commander strategically was usurped by the Nara's & company. So as of now it seems Kishi  truly gave him the title for political reasons alone.



What? Ei didn't even _fight _in the war, unless you include KCM Naruto 
(which wasn't a real fight, but more of a test). Speaking of Naruto, I think it's also quite funny that he was afraid of Tsunade getting involved in the skirmish between him and Ei, even though she was going to join _his_ side.  What was Kishi trying to say? 

The Raikage's only real fight was against Madara. In that battle, all of the Kage performed equally until Onoki's Stone Will showed up and the back problems disappeared.  

Seriously though, Onoki couldn't get past Peta Path on his own, and Raikage couldn't get through Susano'o, so they teamed up. Onoki out-shined all of the Kage when he saved them from Flower World, but I do consider Stone Willed Onoki above the rest of the Kage. Just look at my tier list.



> Minato is above Orochimaru, I agree there, but I don't think he is as much higher as people believe, at least until he got Kurama. KCM-Naruto is in a similar boat, i'd imagine, though harder to rate him as he's always some how spread thin. These battles weren't even close though.
> 
> Beginner MS-Sasuke, I see nothing to indicate he is above Orochimaru, and no way Base-B is. These were the closer battles.
> 
> Madara obviously is, but only using Stage 1 [1 1/2] Susano'o, I have my serious doubts.



KCM Naruto & Minato would beat Orochimaru nearly every time, Naruto especially. I dunno what you mean by "the Naruto battle wasn't even close." That "battle" was just Ei smacking Naruto around until Naruto was able to avoid a punch last second. Then Ei let him go. 

Orochimaru seemed to have a problem with Sharingan Genjutsu in the past, so Sasuke can just win with that while using the rib-cage to defend against Orochimaru's offense. 

Base B obviously cannot win by, but Base B didn't beat the Raikage in an actual death-match either.

Finally, you're overestimating Orochimaru if you think Madara would need more than his Ribcage Susano'o. Mokuton: Anything GG.



> What feats am I looking at? I'm looking at performance in terms of accomplishments, which goes towards portrayal.



Just in general, you don't like the Raikage for some reason because you think he has bad feats. Thus the Sai comments. His portrayal has been very good, only falling short of Onoki after the stone will chapter.*

*Before the Stone Will chapter, Onoki nearly lost to Mu, then lost to Nidaime Mizukage, both times because of his back. Mifune also mentioned his physical problems & age being the sole reason he couldn't be the general. They were a pretty big deal. After the stone will, we never heard of those issues again and Onoki's feats & endurance seemed to be at greater levels than his previous showings.

Just my observation, and it's why I separate the two Onokis.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I never said he stomps Orochimaru.


My initial post was never direct towards you.  



> Orochimaru has his poison restricted and Ei has a good match up.


His poison, which I take to mean his WS-Venom, not the poison his summon snakes produce.



> Who's superior portrayal wise isn't clear and don't pretend you can prove it's clear.


I can easily prove it. Orochimaru defeated Old Hiruzen & outright stated to be roughly his equal in the fan-book; so even if one argues circumstances favored Orochimaru, he's still at least equal to Hiruzen --- further supported by their DB-Stat Totals. On the other hand Old Hiruzen has been canonically stated to be the strongest Gokage. Ei was a Gokage at that time. 

This is on top of Orochimaru's general portrayal being much more favorable than Ei's.



> It doesn't really matter if he's limited at range. He's a Nintaijutsu master. Don't you see where Kishimoto was going with the character?


Yes it do does matter. A limited fighting style is easy to exploit. There is reason why other Taijutsu masters have Long or at least Mid-range attacks.



> He's been granted fantastic speed to close distances and possibly interrupt Ninjutsu that require seals. You also have to get close to him in order to connect, as he proved he can avoid even point blank attacks in just v1.


I really do not feel like going into feats and If I were you I wouldn't ether, since by feats I could easily make an argument for any Kage and even weaker characters defeating Ei by simply exploiting the his one-dimensional feats.

So instead I'll say this. Ei by portrayal does not use R2-Shunshin speed consistently throughout a battle, as people in the NBD seem to like to pretend he does. Ei is more often in Base or R1, than he is using R2-Shunshhin. We've seen Three-Tome Sasuke land a blow no problem on R1-Ei; so by portrayal landing a blow on Ei is not the crazy impossible accomplishment your making it out to be. Sure if Ei's aware a big  [or dangerous]  attack is coming than that is a different story as he can amp up his shroud to R2 and use Shunshin, but if he is not aware an attack is coming or underestimates it's threat he can be hit by many Shinobi. Also by portrayal Ei has been shown to have difficult with AOE attacks, like when the ceiling collapses, so that is another avenue one can take.

How Orochimaru would specifically pull off any of these methods, like I said i'm not going to bother with the "feat" centric nature of that type of discussion. I'm not going to even say that Orochimaru would specifically use one of these methods or that one of these methods would lead to hitting Ei. I'm just illuminating the fact that there are many possibilities to land a blow on Ei, outside of someone simply having to be faster than Ei's R2-Shunshin.



> What? Ei didn't even fight in the war, unless you include KCM Naruto
> (which wasn't a real fight, but more of a test).


He fought Naruto and B; than fought Madara. Now is fighting Spiral. So yes he's fought in the war.



> you include KCM Naruto
> (which wasn't a real fight, but more of a test). Speaking of Naruto, I think it's also quite funny that he was afraid of Tsunade getting involved in the skirmish between him and Ei, even though she was going to join his side.  What was Kishi trying to say?


That it wouldn't be good for two Kages to fight each other, while an alliance is occurring? 

What is Kishi implying by the fact that Tsunade believed she could deal with Ei in combat?



> The Raikage's only real fight was against Madara. In that battle, all of the Kage performed equally until Onoki's Stone Will showed up and the back problems disappeared.


Tsunade and Onoki outshined the other Kages drastically; they were in-fact the only thing keeping the other Gokage in the fight or even alive.

Gaara and Mei has some utility uses, but Ei was completely useless on his own.



> KCM Naruto & Minato would beat Orochimaru nearly every time, Naruto especially


So basically what I said. If some-one is stronger than you, even if it's only a small-mid sized gap, your still going to loose most of the time. 



> I dunno what you mean by "the Naruto battle wasn't even close." That "battle" was just Ei smacking Naruto around until Naruto was able to avoid a punch last second. Then Ei let him go.


Naruto completely triumphed Ei in his best area. Naruto let Ei go, by never using any attacks at all; that's how big the difference was. Naruto didn't even have to use any attacks and he was still comfortably dealing with Ei's best shit.



> rochimaru seemed to have a problem with Sharingan Genjutsu in the past, so Sasuke can just win with that while using the rib-cage to defend against Orochimaru's offense.


Come on dude, let's not troll. Itachi > Sasuke in Genjutsu; and even Itachi utilizing Genjutsu only cut off Pre-Manga Orochimaru's hand, an injury which Manga Orochimaru would laugh off. Than when Itachi fought even armless Orochimaru, he utilized Susano'o rather than being able to simply Genjutsu him. Also we were canonically told that Hebi-Sasuke despite having his Genjutsu only defeated Orochimaru because Orochimaru was weakened [armless and bedridden], even than he won not due to Genjutsu [which Orochimaru broke], but his strength of will. To be fair that was before Mangekyo-Sharingan, but Mangekyo-Sharingan did not bring with it uber Genjutsu upgrades for Sasuke. Not to mention we were canonically shown Kabuto demonstrating Orochimaru's skills to avoid Genjutsu [Snake detection, while avoiding LOS], which worked against EMS-Sasuke & MS-Itachi. 

There is so much against the idea that Orochimaru would be done in by beginner MS Sasuke's Genjutsu it's not even funny.



> Base B obviously cannot win by, but Base B didn't beat the Raikage in an actual death-match either.


It not being a death match goes both ways and in-fact if anything B looked more hesitant to harm EI than visa versa. The fact of the matter is Base-B best Ei, with the same handicap. 



> Finally, you're overestimating Orochimaru if you think Madara would need more than his Ribcage Susano'o. Mokuton: Anything GG.


Wait what? You say I'm underestimating Madara by saying he needs more than rib-cage Susano'o to beat Orochimaru; than you cite something [Mokuton] that is not rib-cage Susano'o for how he'd beat ORochimaru. Does not compute 



> Just in general, you don't like the Raikage for some reason because you think he has bad feats. Thus the Sai comments.


The Sai comment was to illustrate a point, about feat-centric arguments. One which fell largely on depth ears, because everyone want to suddenly shift to portrayal when it became inconvenient for them to discuss in the same feat-centric way they were touting as the superior way to discuss match ups previously; basically the typical Naruto-forums hypocrisy.

So actually it's the reverse of what your saying. I dislike feats-centric discussion; for the very reason that a character like Ei is victimized by it; since by feats he is extremely one-dimensional, but by portrayal I feel as if he is probably less one dimensional than his feats indicate. I also don't dislike Ei at all, It actually annoys me how piss poor of a portrayal [relative to his standings] Kishi has given him in the war. Do I think he's overrate in the BD, yes I do, because all characters tied to fan-favorites [Minato/Itachi/etc...] are overrated in the BD

So simply put your way off base.



> His portrayal has been very good, only falling short of Onoki after the stone will chapter.*


His portrayal falls short of Tsunade, Onoki, and Gaara's. 



> Before the Stone Will chapter, Onoki nearly lost to Mu, then lost to Nidaime Mizukage, both times because of his back


He only nearly lost to Mu, who has a better portrayal than Ei. Against Mizukage he was exhausted going into that fight.



> Mifune also mentioned his physical problems & age being the sole reason he couldn't be the general. They were a pretty big deal. After the stone will, we never heard of those issues again and Onoki's feats & endurance seemed to be at greater levels than his previous showings.


To be perfectly honest back problems wasn't what lost him any fight. He was going to loose to Mu due to being unable to deal with Mu's invis combined with Mu's Edo-Tensei endurance. His back was thrown out against the Mizukage, but that problem was created mostly by exhaustion from the Mu fight as otherwise he wouldn't have had to use Rock-Fist on the clam. I mean even before stone will he was lifting up meteors and turtle island.



> Just my observation, and it's why I separate the two Onokis.


I don't think there are two separate Onoki's Stone Will like WOF is just an asspull Kishi can give any character to give them a slight edge in any fight. That's all that is.


----------



## The Undying (Apr 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sharingan Sasuke avoided B in midair, avoided Ei, outright speed blitzed Naruto in the *beginning* of part 2, came within inches of blitzing Deidara in half....
> 
> Oh he's ridiculously extremely massively incredibly unquestionably faster than Orochimaru, and Sasuke landed one hit on Ei by ducking him at the last possible second. In v2, Sauce couldn't touch him at all, even with "unavoidable" techniques.




Didn't DB3 categorize Sasuke in the same general tier of speed as Orochimaru? Not really sure how blitzing start-of-Part II Naruto or _not quite_ blitzing Deidara conclusively proves anything. 

Not that I'm doubting A's top speed in comparison to Orochimaru's or anything, but I'm not comprehending the idea of MS Sasuke being "ridiculously extremely massively incredibly unquestionably" above Orochimaru in that department.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> On the other hand Old Hiruzen has been canonically stated to be the strongest Gokage. Ei was a Gokage at that time.



No. Hiruzen, based on his _reputation,_ was stated to be the strongest of the Kage. Actually, before Kabuto, Iruka spoke even higher of him; Hiruzen was the strongest Kage in _history_. Hiruzen had a pretty good reputation.

His reputation however was not indicative of his combat ability _in his old age._



> Yes it do does matter. A limited fighting style is easy to exploit. There is reason why other Taijutsu masters have Long or at least Mid-range attacks.



That's outright wrong. Tsunade and Rock Lee do not have ranged techniques, and Tsunade is Kage level (even without her slug). Minato doesn't have a ranged attack, and he is one of the more powerful Shinobi in the entire series. The Gold & Silver brothers are reliant on touching you with a rope, and if they fail at that they turn into brawlers just like Ei.

Exploiting any fighting style is a case by case basis. Some shinobi have the right tools to do deal with Ei, while some simply don't. This isn't DBZ where everything is determined by power level.



> So instead I'll say this. Ei by portrayal does not use R2-Shunshin speed consistently throughout a battle, as people in the NBD seem to like to pretend he does. Ei is more often in Base or R1, than he is using R2-Shunshhin. We've seen Three-Tome Sasuke land a blow no problem on R1-Ei; so by portrayal landing a blow on Ei is not the crazy impossible accomplishment your making it out to be. Sure if Ei's aware a big  [or dangerous]  attack is coming than that is a different story as he can amp up his shroud to R2 and use Shunshin, but if he is not aware an attack is coming or underestimates it's threat he can be hit by many Shinobi. Also by portrayal Ei has been shown to have difficult with AOE attacks, like when the ceiling collapses, so that is another avenue one can take.



Sasuke is incredibly fast in his own right and faster than most Kage. Most Kage do not have the Sharingan to see Ei's movements before they happen. 

Ei, in v1, has avoided giant laser cannons from _centimeters_. It's going to take something extremely fast or extremely large to connect with the Raikage, regardless of how amped his shroud is.



> He fought Naruto and B; than fought Madara. Now is fighting Spiral. So yes he's fought in the war.



Naruto and B weren't fights., and he's done the most damage to spiral (on panel) outside of Karin.



> Tsunade and Onoki outshined the other Kages drastically; they were in-fact the only thing keeping the other Gokage in the fight or even alive.
> 
> Gaara and Mei has some utility uses, but Ei was completely useless on his own.



lolol Onoki out-shined them with his motivational speeches. He did wake up from Flower World first, granted, and countered it, granted, but please listen. I already told you how I felt about Onoki.

Tsunade was the team's medic, so I hope you don't mean she is portrayed higher than them because she healed them. That's asinine. Is Sakura portrayed to Naruto's level because she's healing him constantly throughout this arc? 

Combat wise, all of the Kage were equal, except for Onoki post Stone Will where he apparently stepped up his game.


*Spoiler*: _The Rest_ 





> Naruto completely triumphed Ei in his best area. Naruto let Ei go, by never using any attacks at all; that's how big the difference was. Naruto didn't even have to use any attacks and he was still comfortably dealing with Ei's best shit.



I'm already quite aware that KCM Naruto is stronger than Ei, but he would stomp Orochimaru as well considering his mere shadow clones were competing with Kage. 



> To be fair that was before Mangekyo-Sharingan, but Mangekyo-Sharingan did not bring with it uber Genjutsu upgrades for Sasuke. Not to mention we were canonically shown Kabuto demonstrating Orochimaru's skills to avoid Genjutsu [Snake detection, while avoiding LOS], which worked against EMS-Sasuke & MS-Itachi.
> 
> There is so much against the idea that Orochimaru would be done in by beginner MS Sasuke's Genjutsu it's not even funny.



The Mangekyou Sharingan did upgrade Sasuke's Genjutsu.  Not to the level of Itachi's Tsukuyomi of course, but Itachi didn't use the Mangekyou to stomp Orochimaru.

I also like how you gave Orochimaru Sage Kabuto's feats when he doesn't have Sage sensing, which was a pretty large factor....



> It not being a death match goes both ways and in-fact if anything B looked more hesitant to harm EI than visa versa. The fact of the matter is Base-B best Ei, with the same handicap.



Base B bested Ei in a Lariat contest, not a fight. Lariat didn't do anything to Ei. If that was a fight, Ei would've gotten back up and put severed B's head with a Raiton chop, using a strong flicker to land cleanly.



> Wait what? You say I'm underestimating Madara by saying he needs more than rib-cage Susano'o to beat Orochimaru; than you cite something [Mokuton] that is not rib-cage Susano'o for how he'd beat ORochimaru. Does not compute



Madara didn't defeat the Raikage using Rib Cage Susano'o, but it isn't like Orochimaru can get through the Rib Cage either.



> His portrayal falls short of Tsunade, Onoki, and Gaara's.



Just Onoki's, post stone will.



> To be perfectly honest back problems wasn't what lost him any fight. He was going to loose to Mu due to being unable to deal with Mu's invis combined with Mu's Edo-Tensei endurance. His back was thrown out against the Mizukage, but that problem was created mostly by exhaustion from the Mu fight as otherwise he wouldn't have had to use Rock-Fist on the clam. I mean even before stone will he was lifting up meteors and turtle island.



Yeah, I know why he lost both. I said back problems _and_ old age (which leads to exhaustion). These problems were sever enough that they kept Onoki from possibly being General, despite apparently being "the strongest Kage."

Lifting the giant structures was just a product of weight manipulation, which doesn't seem to cost that much Chakra (at least less than Jinton).



> I don't think there are two separate Onoki's Stone Will like WOF is just an asspull Kishi can give any character to give them a slight edge in any fight. That's all that is.



Yes, and that "slight edge" boosts SW Onoki up.


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## Rocky (Apr 4, 2014)

The Undying said:


> Didn't DB3 categorize Sasuke in the same general tier of speed as Orochimaru? Not really sure how blitzing start-of-Part II Naruto or _not quite_ blitzing Deidara conclusively proves anything.
> 
> Not that I'm doubting A's top speed in comparison to Orochimaru's or anything, but I'm not comprehending the idea of MS Sasuke being "ridiculously extremely massively incredibly unquestionably" above Orochimaru in that department.



Sasuke and Deidara are also categorized in the same speed tier, yet Deidara couldn't handle Sasuke's flicker on the ground. The Databook doesn't compensate for Shunshin in the speed stat imo, and I don't think it does for the Sharingan either.

When Orochimaru has speed showings that are anywhere near the same ballpark as Sasuke's, I'll take it back.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> No. Hiruzen, based on his _reputation,_ was stated to be the strongest of the Kage. Actually, before Kabuto, Iruka spoke even higher of him; Hiruzen was the strongest Kage in _history_. Hiruzen had a pretty good reputation.
> 
> His reputation however was not indicative of his combat ability _in his old age._


The statement was said in the context of Orochimaru vs Hiruzen; it's really reaching to try and push it off as incorrect reputation. 



> That's outright wrong. Tsunade and Rock Lee do not have ranged techniques, and Tsunade is Kage level (even without her slug). Minato doesn't have a ranged attack, and he is one of the more powerful Shinobi in the entire series. The Gold & Silver brothers are reliant on touching you with a rope, and if they fail at that they turn into brawlers just like Ei.


Where is the proof that any of these guys don't have ranged attacks. We've probably seen a fraction of their arsenals. Lee is the only debatable on, and he could easily have MP.



> Exploiting any fighting style is a case by case basis. Some shinobi have the right tools to do deal with Ei, while some simply don't. This isn't DBZ where everything is determined by power level.


I didn't say everyone can exploit it, I said many can. And again I must stress that it is you who is arguing Ei's lack of range techniques.



> asuke is incredibly fast in his own right and faster than most Kage. Most Kage do not have the Sharingan to see Ei's movements before they happen.


Sasuke completely evaded Ei's blow and landed his own. This tells us you don't need Sasuke's speed just to hit R1 Ei, you need Sasuke's speed to complete triumph R1 Ei. 



> Ei, in v1, has avoided giant laser cannons from centimeters. It's going to take something extremely fast or extremely large to connect with the Raikage, regardless of how amped his shroud is.


Your talking about an attack from Juugo, any Kage is going to have more dangerous attacks than anything Juugo has. 



> Naruto and B weren't fights.,


They were fights. Ei used one of his best moves against Base-B was triumphed. He literally used his best attack against Naruto and was triumphed complete.



> and he's done the most damage to spiral (on panel) outside of Karin.


Ei never even hit spiral unless i'm missing or forgetting a panel.



> lolol Onoki out-shined them with his motivational speeches. He did wake up from Flower World first, granted, and countered it, granted, but please listen. I already told you how I felt about Onoki.


Okay so we agree he was out-shinned by Onoki



> Tsunade was the team's medic, so I hope you don't mean she is portrayed higher than them because she healed them. That's asinine. Is Sakura portrayed to Naruto's level because she's healing him constantly throughout this arc?


Are you suggesting that I should ignore her feats as a medic? 

An the Sakura example is a Joke, so please stop with that.



> Combat wise, all of the Kage were equal, except for Onoki post Stone Will where he apparently stepped up his game.


This is based on what?



> I'm already quite aware that KCM Naruto is stronger than Ei, but he would stomp Orochimaru as well considering his mere shadow clones were competing with Kage.


His shadow clones with help from other ninja were competing with Kages. He'd beat Orochimaru, but I feel a stomp is pushing it.



> The Mangekyou Sharingan did upgrade Sasuke's Genjutsu.  Not to the level of Itachi's Tsukuyomi of course, but Itachi didn't use the Mangekyou to stomp Orochimaru.


We did not see much of a significant upgrade.



> I also like how you gave Orochimaru Sage Kabuto's feats when he doesn't have Sage sensing, which was a pretty large factor....


Orochimaru has snake sensing, it's silly to think otherwise; Sasuke even knew about it from the time he spent with Orochimaru. What Orochimaru doesn't have is Sennin Modo sensing.



> Base B bested Ei in a Lariat contest, not a fight. Lariat didn't do anything to Ei. If that was a fight, Ei would've gotten back up and put severed B's head with a Raiton chop, using a strong flicker to land cleanly.


This is silly both were holding back [or do I need to talk about how badly Samehada would troll Ei]



> Madara didn't defeat the Raikage using Rib Cage Susano'o, but it isn't like Orochimaru can get through the Rib Cage either.


Ei was incapable of doing anything to Madara post rib-cage and needed help. I'd like to see the proof that Orochimaru has nothing that can get by just the rib-cage 



> Just Onoki's, post stone will.


How is his portrayal >= Gaara or Tsunade's?



> Yeah, I know why he lost both. I said back problems and old age (which leads to exhaustion). These problems were sever enough that they kept Onoki from possibly being General, despite apparently being "the strongest Kage."
> 
> Lifting the giant structures was just a product of weight manipulation, which doesn't seem to cost that much Chakra (at least less than Jinton).


No you said back problems, which that wasn't the issue, it was stamina.  Now you can say stamina was only an issue because of age, but do we have any evidence that Prime-Onoki would have been able to out-last Edo-Mu and do so with enough chakra where he'd be perfectly ready to fight another Kage? Where was Prime-Onoki stated to be such a chakra beast.



> Yes, and that "slight edge" boosts SW Onoki up


To boost someone up based on this is silly, because if Kishi wished it, he'd have Ei have Kumo Will, Mei have Mist-Will, etc... when it was convenent for the plot


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> If people think Ei is beating Orochimaru let alone stomping him, Ei is becoming one of the most overrated characters. I mean what has Kishi really shown Ei do in the manga.
> 
> Ei vs Sasuke - Looking at the battle objectively, thee best interpretation of that battle for Ei, would be that he was going to defeat beginner-MS Sasuke, at the expense of become permanently handicapped. Than when Sasuke just advanced his Susano'o one level higher, Ei was already totally outclassed and on the ropes.
> 
> ...



Killer B vs A wasn't a fight. Killer B plotshielded himself and bested A in a lariat contest. That was like arm wrestling, it doesn't show who'd beat who in a fight. 
If they fought, Raikage'd just blitz B and take his head off. And FYI, Killer B would prison rape Orochimaru, if that is any consolation.


Actually, looking @ your examples you lined up to downgrade A, each one of those shinobi would decisively defeat Orochimaru. Some of them would just outright stomp him. 

And oh, care to give any examples where Orochimaru ever prevailed in this manga, against someone of A's weight class ?
Yeah, I thought so.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Killer B vs A wasn't a fight. Killer B plotshielded himself and bested A in a lariat contest. That was like arm wrestling, it doesn't show who'd beat who in a fight.
> If they fought, Raikage'd just blitz B and take his head off. And FYI, Killer B would prison rape Orochimaru, if that is any consolation.
> .


Both fought w/o killer intent B won. B had other shit he could pull as well; namely Samehada which would have completely trolled Raiton no Yoroi.



> Actually, looking @ your examples you lined up to downgrade A, each one of those shinobi would decisively defeat Orochimaru. Some of them would just outright stomp him.


Base-B and Beginner-MS-Sasuke would decisively defeat Orochimaru; come on man



> And oh, care to give any examples where Orochimaru ever prevailed in this manga, against someone of A's weight class ?
> Yeah, I thought so


Orochimaru beat Hiruzen, who is canonically stated to be > than Ei. Orochimaru also beat Yondaime-Kazekage and was prepared to defeat Sasori; both of which should at least be around Ei's general "level".


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## Rocky (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The statement was said in the context of Orochimaru vs Hiruzen; it's really reaching to try and push it off as incorrect reputation.



Nah, it ain't pushing anything. The word "reputation" was literally in Kabuto's statement, and reputation doesn't factor in the decline from aging. Iruka proved that for us when he spoke of Hiruzen's reputation to Naruto.



> Where is the proof that any of these guys don't have ranged attacks. We've probably seen a fraction of their arsenals. Lee is the only debatable on, and he could easily have MP.



If you think they do, post scans please. *There is no evidence*, and I'm not trying to uselessly speculate. The Raikage could have ranged attacks too, Tsunade could have Kage Bunshin, Minato could have futon jutsu, etc. The key word is _could._ Until we _know _they do (or it's blatantly obvious), they don't get those feats.



> I didn't say everyone can exploit it, I said many can. And again I must stress that it is you who is arguing Ei's lack of range techniques.



Many can, true.

And many can't.



> Sasuke completely evaded Ei's blow and landed his own. This tells us you don't need Sasuke's speed just to hit R1 Ei, you need Sasuke's speed to complete triumph R1 Ei.



Yes, his non flicker speed, considering even KCM Naruto couldn't get past v1 Ei until the very end of their "fight."

But regardless, there aren't any other Kage with Sharingan Sasuke's "speed," except for Nidaime & Yondaime Hokage.



> Your talking about an attack from Juugo, any Kage is going to have more dangerous attacks than anything Juugo has.



First off, you need to prove that, and secondly, that doesn't mean any of their attacks will connect with the Raikage. He dodged Juugo's point blank (in v1) anyway.



> They were fights. Ei used one of his best moves against Base-B was triumphed. He literally used his best attack against Naruto and was triumphed complete.



Having your best attack fail doesn't mean you've lost a fight. You lose a fight when you die or cannot fight anymore.



> Ei never even hit spiral unless i'm missing or forgetting a panel.



Shin suusenju, my bad.



> Are you suggesting that I should ignore her feats as a medic?
> 
> An the Sakura example is a Joke, so please stop with that.



Her medical abilities don't directly translate to portrayal of overall power or strength (except for Byakugo), just like Saukra. Nice try, attempting to play it off as a joke though.



> We did not see much of a significant upgrade.



He went from using Sharingan Genjutsu to Mangekyou Genjutsu.

He dropped a Genjutsu-using sensor medic to the floor with a gaze. Is Orochimaru better at Genjutsu than him? 



> Orochimaru has snake sensing, it's silly to think otherwise; Sasuke even knew about it from the time he spent with Orochimaru. What Orochimaru doesn't have is Sennin Modo sensing.



I said Sage Sensing.



> This is silly both were holding back [or do I need to talk about how badly Samehada would troll Ei]



A v2 flank would troll B even worse considering neither B nor Samehada can actually react to it.



> Ei was incapable of doing anything to Madara post rib-cage and needed help. I'd like to see the proof that Orochimaru has nothing that can get by just the rib-cage



If you think Orochimaru can get past the Ribcage with one of his Jutsu, post a scan please.



> How is his portrayal >= Gaara (NO SHUKAKU) or Tsunade's?



It's pretty even with theirs during the Madara fight, but for Gaara and Mei, the general thing, the spotlight against Taka at the Summit, and his feats are better imo.



> but do we have any evidence that Prime-Onoki would have been able to out-last Edo-Mu and do so with enough chakra where he'd be perfectly ready to fight another Kage? Where was Prime-Onoki stated to be such a chakra beast.



No, but it would've helped in general had he been in his prime. He also wouldn't have nearly gotten shot in the head against TrollKage.



> To boost someone up based on this is silly, because if Kishi wished it, he'd have Ei have Kumo Will, Mei have Mist-Will, etc... when it was convenent for the plot



...yes I'm aware of that. But unfortunately, none of those Kage have the ability to counter Flower World, so unless he wanted to end the Gokage fight there, Onoki had to get a boost and wake up randomly before everyone else.


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## The Undying (Apr 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke and Deidara are also categorized in the same speed tier, yet Deidara couldn't handle Sasuke's flicker on the ground. The Databook doesn't compensate for Shunshin in the speed stat imo, and I don't think it does for the Sharingan either.
> 
> When Orochimaru has speed showings that are anywhere near the same ballpark as Sasuke's, I'll take it back.




Whether the speed stat encompasses Shunshin at all depends on Shunshin's augmentation mechanics, considering that Deidara _was_ fast enough to react and then dodge Sasuke's initial attempt. That means that at least someone in a 4.5 tier can "handle" Sasuke's flicker at the beginning of a fight, which I think is a fair precedent for showing that Shunshin might be correlated with base movement speed in some way (or movement speed while transformed) since Sasuke is in the same tier. Granted, this only applies to Hebi Sasuke and not MS Sasuke.

Furthermore, DB3 clearly states that Sasuke's statistical parameters will improve now that he possesses Mangekyou Sharingan. That would mean that the Sharingan is already accounted for. Its perceptive traits were also said to affect the user's agility.


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## Sabco (Apr 4, 2014)

Without edo tensei I can't see orochimaru win


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Both fought w/o killer intent B won. B had other shit he could pull as well; namely Samehada which would have completely trolled Raiton no Yoroi.


Sure but there is no evidence that samehada can react to V2 A so, I am not sure how effective it'd be. Also like we've seen, while Samehada can absorb the chakra it can't absorb the momentum behind the hits, hence Kisame almost died despite absorbing B's shroud.



> Base-B and Beginner-MS-Sasuke would decisively defeat Orochimaru; come on man


I didn't say base B. I also pointed out that Base B never defeated A. He just toppled him with lariat with the help of the plot shield. 

It'd be no different if they arm wrestled and B won. That in no way or form shows that B can defeat A in a fight. It just shows that he'd defeat him in arm wrestling.

Beginner MS sasuke has Amaterasu and perfect Enton control and ribcage Susano'o.

Tell me what can Edoless and poisonless Orochimaru can ever hope to do to that version ? Hell, Base Sasuke'd give that Orochimaru a good fight.



> Orochimaru beat Hiruzen, who is canonically stated to be > than Ei.



That statement is bullshit, We've seen the whole fight and how Orochimaru 'beat' Hiruzen. There are no ifs and buts, A'd just blitz Hiruzen and take his head off with 0 difficulty. Even with war arc feats, Hiruzen doesn't even remotely come close to A's level.



> Orochimaru also beat Yondaime-Kazekage and was prepared to defeat Sasori; both of which should at least be around Ei's general "level".



Yondaime Kazekage was clearly weaker than A based on display. There is also no way to know how Orochimaru defeated him. 
Sasori is also weaker than A and Orochimaru planned on ambushing Sasori. That surely doesn't mean he could defeat him.
Aren't you one of the people who disregard Deidara's statement of "being the one to defeat Orochimaru?" 
Just because Orochimaru thought he could defeat Sasori by ambushing him with Kabuto doesn't mean he could beat him.

Additionally,  A'd blitz the fuck out of Sasori and kill him without too many problems. And he wouldn't need to ambush him nor bring any muscle in order to do that.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Nah, it ain't pushing anything. The word "reputation" was literally in Kabuto's statement, and reputation doesn't factor in the decline from aging. Iruka proved that for us when he spoke of Hiruzen's reputation to Naruto.


I'm not saying, it being reputation is a stretch, i'm saying it's a stretch to believe the rep is no longer correct; because in essence you are arguing that Kishi had Kabuto make a statement that is completely irrelevant and downright misleading to readers, considering the context of the discussion was Orochimaru vs Hiruzen.



> If you think they do, post scans please. There is no evidence, and I'm not trying to uselessly speculate. The Raikage could have ranged attacks too, Tsunade could have Kage Bunshin, Minato could have futon jutsu, etc. The key word is could. Until we know they do (or it's blatantly obvious), they don't get those feats.


In my opinion it is blatantly obvious that 50 year old Sannin, 50(40) year old Raikage, 20-30 year old genius, etc... have some range Jutsu under their belt. 

Aside from that, asking me to post scans, is like me asking you to post scans that state they don't have ranged Jutsu. It's not going to get us anywhere; and remember your the one making the assertion here. You are asserting Ei's & these other shinobi's lack of ranged Jutsu, while on the other hand I am simply asking you to prove that claim; and no X-character hasn't shown it yet, doesn't prove your claim, unless you also have a statement saying we've seen everything that character has to offer.

(Also by the way, Tsunade even by feats has a ranged attack; Katsuya's Acid)



> Many can, true.
> 
> And many can't.


Okay, and what's your point. If many people can exploit it, that's already not good.



> Yes, his non flicker speed, considering even KCM Naruto couldn't get past v1 Ei until the very end of their "fight."
> 
> But regardless, there aren't any other Kage with Sharingan Sasuke's "speed," except for Nidaime & Yondaime Hokage.


I really could care less about this feats garbage. All i'm trying to stress to you is that Kishi has made it very clear that you don't need to come anywhere near Ei's max speed to be able to make contact with Ei. Three-Tome Sasuke did it twice; and even Suigetsu made contact with Ei. 

You citing all these feats and saying Ei can be this fast or that fast, doesn't really matter, because Kishi has not portrayed Ei to consistently use those top speeds or consistently be untouchable.



> First off, you need to prove that,


I have to prove that the best techniques, combos, etc... Kages can produce are better than Juugo's attack; really? Were not going on the common sense factor here that Juugo has in no way been even remotely portrayed to be at the level of a Kage?



> and secondly, that doesn't mean any of their attacks will connect with the Raikage. He dodged Juugo's point blank (in v1) anyway.


Again you can cite me all feat based nonsense you want, but the author has shown me that Three-Tome Sasuke with zero issue can make contact with Ei; and so can Suigetsu. Now suddenly i'm to believe Ei will be go an entire battle against a character with Orochimaru cred untouched. Come on bro, this is crazy.



> Having your best attack fail doesn't mean you've lost a fight. You lose a fight when you die or cannot fight anymore.


When you best attack fails and you start believing your enemy is the messiah incarnate, you've lost, there are no two ways around that.



> Shin suusenju, my bad.


He chopped a hand off, do you want me to give him a cookie?



> Her medical abilities don't directly translate to portrayal of overall power or strength (except for Byakugo), just like Saukra. Nice try, attempting to play it off as a joke though.


Who said anything about strength? I said "level". Tsunade is a support ninja of course her skills are not going to place her on the same "level" as someone like Onoki for strength; they are going to place her their for support reasons. Like wise the same applies to Sakura, though comparing her to Naruto is a joke, plain and simple.

In Tsunade's case she was in the driver seat of that battle as much as Onoki, except she was using her skills to support rather than always directly engage. 



> He went from using Sharingan Genjutsu to Mangekyou Genjutsu.


And there was no significant upgrade. Did he get Tsukuyomi, did he get Kotoamatsukami, etc... In the end he was still stated to be extremely far off from Itachi's Genjutsu ability, and that was even later in his MS development than when he engaged Ei.



> He dropped a Genjutsu-using sensor medic to the floor with a gaze. Is Orochimaru better at Genjutsu than him?


How are there people as active as you on this forum that still think someone's ability to cast Genjutsu decides how good they are at breaking Genjutsu. 

The traditional technique to break Genjutsu is a Ninjutsu [Kai]; C is fodder compared to Orochimaru in Ninjutsu skill. Than outside of Kai, the other methods would blocking LOS, partner method, etc... all of which Orochimaru has a far greater ability to pull off than C. 

Finally I'm more than willing to take the bait here and say Orochimaru could easily be more skilled in Genjutsu than C. Orochimaru has a 5 in Genjutsu in the DB. Orochimaru is 50+ year old Sannin that is obsessed with mastering all Jutsu, he could easily have mastered a plethora of different Genjutsu. Finally Orochimaru is a legendary Sannin, Kage defeating, top ninja, etc... who is C again; a some what above average Jonin; child C please.



> I said Sage Sensing.


Than why did you accuse me of giving Orochimaru Sage-Kabuto's feats. When did I ever  talk about Orochimaru using Sennin Modo sensing?



> A v2 flank would troll B even worse considering neither B nor Samehada can actually react to it.


Yay baseless feat based BS.



> If you think Orochimaru can get past the Ribcage with one of his Jutsu, post a scan please.


There are myriad of Jutsu he can use to get past it, but I'm not going to get into this feats nonsense with you. I think Orochimaru can get passed it because he's been portrayed as way stronger than someone who would struggle with just Stage 1 Susano'o.

But here I'll throw just one thing your way; WS-Venom



> It's pretty even with theirs during the Madara fight, but for Gaara and Mei, the general thing, the spotlight against Taka at the Summit, and his feats are better imo.


Gaara defeated 2 Kages in the war and at least had some utility uses without needing someones help against Madara and performed well during the current battle. Ei at best would have beaten Sasuke by becoming handicapped for life. I don't see that being better than Ei's portrayal.



> No, but it would've helped in general had he been in his prime. He also wouldn't have nearly gotten shot in the head against TrollKage.


He didn't get shot in the head by Troll anyway; Gaara set the whole thing up with a Suna-bushin. 



> .yes I'm aware of that. But unfortunately, none of those Kage have the ability to counter Flower World, so unless he wanted to end the Gokage fight there, Onoki had to get a boost and wake up randomly before everyone else.


Okay and what's your point?

@Grimmjowsensei
Your post is too much feat based nonsense and too much denial of cannon for me to go there.


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## Jad (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm curious, how many oral rebirths do people think Orochimaru has?


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## SSMG (Apr 4, 2014)

Oro needs more feats with his new body and with his arms vack. Ecerythibg we have to go off of Otos abilities is him toying around or him not being 100%.

But ill say this anyways.

Karin was potrayed as being better than raikage a few chapters ago with the wood byddha. now oro was surprised at her being so strong.. but i still think he will be > karin.

so i feel he should win.

and jad it should be a shit ton now since he has a zetsu(senju) body.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2014)

Jad said:


> I'm curious, how many oral rebirths do people think Orochimaru has?



I think he used 3 against Naruto but he was having problems with his host. So I guess he can dish out 5 maybe 6 if he is perfectly fine ?


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## Rocky (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin, your post is too portrayal centric for me to continue. Way too many assumptions.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> Your post is too much feat based nonsense and too much denial of cannon for me to go there.



If you are gonna ignore feats I suggest you leave BD and never comeback. 

I'd suggest you to stick to Konoha Park if it still existed but you'll have to do with Konoha Library for now


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## Cognitios (Apr 4, 2014)

What was konoha park?
But Grimmjow has a point, you really can't say what Kishi wants to happen in the battledome.
In the Battledome you need to mix feats and portrayal, not one or the other


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

@Grimjow & Cognitos

Please show me the NBD rule that says one must discuss in a feat-centric way. 
I'm simply answering the OP's question in the way I find most logical.



Rocky said:


> Turrin, your post is too portrayal centric for me to continue. Way too many assumptions.


I don't see how anyone can find feats more accurate than portrayal, but okay whatever floats your boat. But I must say by feats Ei is the weakest Kage; need we revisit the Sai example.



Jad said:


> I'm curious, how many oral rebirths do people think Orochimaru has?


Considering Orochimaru used 3 Oral-Rebirth, on-top of other Jutsu, with a failing body. Than factoring in how Kishimoto "plays" around with chakra levels. Low Estimate 6 - High Estimate 12. Now with Senju DNA it might be more than that.


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## Rocky (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how anyone can find feats more accurate than portrayal.



Use both. Accuracy will follow.



> But I must say by feats Ei is the weakest Kage; need we revisit the Sai example.



Sai get's blitzed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Grimjow & Cognitos
> 
> Please show me the NBD rule that says one must discuss in a feat-centric way.
> I'm simply answering the OP's question in the way I find most logical.



Its not a rule, it is common sense.

If two characters are battling, then you probably should know what those characters are capable of doing and compare their feats to be able conclude who'd win.

There is a reason why featless character threads get instantly locked. Battledome is a feat driven concept. 



Cognitios said:


> What was konoha park?
> But Grimmjow has a point, you really can't say what Kishi wants to happen in the battledome.
> In the Battledome you need to mix feats and portrayal, not one or the other



Konoha park was once a place where joke threads belonged to. They closed it years ago. 

Say you created a "Orochimaru vs Itachi" thread in BD, it'd be instantly moved to Konoha Park


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## SSMG (Apr 4, 2014)

So if feats say one thing but portrayal says another.. which is the better one to use?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2014)

SSMG said:


> So if feats say one thing but portrayal says another.. which is the better one to use?



Let me say this, without feats, hype and portrayal don't mean much.
On the other hand, feats don't need to be backed up by hype or portrayal.

If a character has immense hype and portrayal, but has no showings on panel, then you can't use him  in BD. Examples : Rikodou Sennin. Hashirama & Madara before the war arc were also in this category. We knew about them, but they didn't have any on panel display at that point.

If a character has immense hype and potrayal, but has terrible display. In that case hype and portrayal also become utterly useless. Examples : Hiruzen, Hanzo.

So all in all, feats > hype and portrayal. 

You sure can use hype and portrayal to support your case if it is built around feats, but they are mostly there for cosmetic purposes. They don't have much substance.
If feats are contradicting hype and portrayal, then it is pretty meaningless to even mention them.


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## The Undying (Apr 4, 2014)

SSMG said:


> So if feats say one thing but portrayal says another.. which is the better one to use?




I prefer portrayal because of author intent, but both are ideal. I don't recall an instance where the two have indisputably collided beyond a shadow of a doubt.


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## SSMG (Apr 4, 2014)

Cool cool i myself prefer feats to go by as well but its good to know where we all stand on these matters. sometimes things dont live up to the hype and sometimes te hype doesnt live up to the feats so i like to go with feats backed by hype.

and undying yeah i dont think they have but im just seeing where you guys stands qhwn it comes to feats vs hype.


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## MYJC (Apr 4, 2014)

I'd probably give this to A with high-ish difficulty. Mainly because I just don't think Oro has the means to deal with Raikage's speed. Meanwhile Raikage should be able to tank/dodge just about anything Oro can do, especially since poison is restricted. Oro probably won't even get time to summon Rashoumon gates, and even if he does I wouldn't put it past A to simply smash through them. And let's not act like A wouldn't punch Manda into next week. 

Granted, Oro is hard as hell to kill and he'll be forced to use oral rebirth quite a lot on this match, but he can only do it for so long before he runs out of chakra. So basically, it takes a while, but Raikage eventually pummels Oro until he runs out of chakra and can't use oral rebirth any more.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its not a rule, it is common sense.
> 
> If two characters are battling, then you probably should know what those characters are capable of doing and compare their feats to be able conclude who'd win.
> 
> There is a reason why featless character threads get instantly locked. Battledome is a feat driven concept.


There are other things that one can look at that are infinitely more accurate than feats. 

NBD is not "feat" driven concept, it has become that way over time. Threads that get locked are usually not due to lack of feats, but lack of info entirely to base a judgement on.



Rocky said:


> Use both. Accuracy will follow.


No it won't. Any argument based on X-Character wins because Y-character hasn't shown a counter for Z-Jutsu is inaccurate and flawed. I'm more than willing to here a counter argument, but expect me to tear it to shreds.



> Sai get's blitzed


Your response is based purely on "portrayal" not looking at "feats"; so it seems to me this fusion you speak of is just, I use feats when it's convenient for me, and I use portrayal when it's convenient for me


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> There are other things that one can look at that are infinitely more accurate than feats.


Not in this place no.

You can't make an argument without referring to  a characters moveset.

How is X going to kill Y ? How is Y going to tank X ? Etc.




> NBD is not "feat" driven concept, it has become that way over time. Threads that get locked are usually not due to lack of feats, but lack of info entirely to base a judgement on.



NBD can't work without feats. That is why it is a feat driven concept. 

Sure, you can create a thread where you can discuss a characters overall portrayal, and contextually it is posbbile but that'd be more of a library thread instead.

If 2 characters are duking it out in an actual battle scenario with specific details like distance knowledge mindset etc, then you have to consider what they are capable of doing and what they aren't. There is only one way of doing that, and  that is judging them by their feats.

I have nothing against using hype, statements, A>B>C logic or portrayal if circumstances allow it so. Like for example if both characters lack feats, you can rely on other things. Or things are really indecisive you can rely on other things. But feats always come first. That is the mechanics of BD, not personal preferance.


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## Rocky (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Any argument based on X-Character wins because Y-character hasn't shown a counter for Z-Jutsu is inaccurate and flawed.



...That's how every fight ends. The 5 Kage (Y-Character) lose to Madara (X-Character) because they have nothing to counter Perfect Susano'o (Z-Jutsu), for example.



> Your response is based purely on "portrayal" not looking at "feats"; so it seems to me this fusion you speak of is just, I use feats when it's convenient for me, and I use portrayal when it's convenient for me



My arguments are feat based with portrayal to back them. Raikage by feats blitzes Sai before he can move regardless of how amped his cloak is.

You're trying to turn this into DBZ, where match-ups don't matter because character X can always pull something out of their ass to counter character Y's Jutsu, therefore reducing everything to "power levels." Not only is that incredibly boring to debate (go look at a DBZ forum vs. section), but it isn't the right way to view the Manga. Match-ups are very important. Just look at Gai vs. Kisame.


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## Fiiction (Apr 4, 2014)

Minato solos.... someone had to say it.


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## ueharakk (Apr 4, 2014)

Kishi is extremely inconsistent with performance in a fight with regards to both feats and portrayal.

Despite that, I like feats more because at least WE can build a somewhat consistent model and matchup of the characters against each other.  The thing i don't like about portrayal is that its like very subjective.  You can't really refute a portrayal argument because it's based on how you feel kishi is portraying a character.  At least with feats, you can show double standards and show the wacky assumptions someone would have to assert are more positive than not in order to reach a conclusion.  That's because kishi is kind of consistent with things like speed, strength and power of jutsu, he's merely inconsistent in regards to letting those characters use those jutsus.  In addition to that, kishi might not even think that character A is > character B despite A winning in the manga or doing 'better' against an opponent in the manga because his motivation isn't merely to display to the audience who is stronger, it's also to achieve certain plot points that are crucial for his story.

Where am i going with this?  i guess i just wanted to say that no, i think by both feats and portrayal, we aren't rolling with pretty good odds in predicting who ends up winning or 'doing better' in kishi's manga.  Despite that, however, I still would favor a feat-based argument over the portrayal one simply due to feats being more objective.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ...That's how every fight ends. The 5 Kage (Y-Character) lose to Madara (X-Character) because they have nothing to counter Perfect Susano'o (Z-Jutsu), for example.
> .


Sure, in the manga. But the difference is Kishi knows each character's entire arsenal; we do not. So when Kishi says a character can't hand X-Jutsu; it's much different than when someone makes a claim in the NBD that based on what a character's shown so far they can't handle a Jutsu.



> y arguments are feat based with portrayal to back them.


It should not be that way though. "Feats" hold no place unless you comparing well-defined Jutsu. 



> Raikage by feats blitzes Sai before he can move regardless of how amped his cloak is.


Not if the starting distance is great enough.



> You're trying to turn this into DBZ, where match-ups don't matter because character X can always pull something out of their ass to counter character Y's Jutsu, therefore reducing everything to "power levels." Not only is that incredibly boring to debate (go look at a DBZ forum vs. section), but it isn't the right way to view the Manga. Match-ups are very important. Just look at Gai vs. Kisame.


Nope I'm telling you that in most cases we do not know who is a bad match up or not; because we don't know a characters complete arsenal. So unless Kishi specifically indicates a certain person is weak towards some ability, we don't know. 

With that said on average the manga does come down to Kishi's perception of power-levels. Very few battles in the manga is match up more important than Kishi's idea of power-levels. Maybe if two ninja are relatively within the same league match up might play a role, in how much difficulty one faces, or might tip things slightly in ones favor, if they were otherwise a bit weaker, but the instances where we see this happen are few and far between.

Even look at your own example, in the end Gai >>>>>>>>> Kisame.

Edit: By the by i'm talking about when discussing whether a character consistently wins or not. If it's something like 1/10 (or 1/100) matches someone might win, than match up might be a bit more important.


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## Rocky (Apr 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sure, in the manga. But the difference is Kishi knows each character's entire arsenal; we do not.



This is the problem. How do you, personally, know that we haven't seen any character's full arsenal? 

You see, it really depends on whom we're talking about. Take somebody like Minato. We know that aside from his Hiraishin, he's also known for his Fuinjutsu right? Well, we haven't seen much of it in action, so sometimes, posters (like myself) will suggest that Minato may defeat an opponent (that he can't take out with a Kunai because of durability or regeneration) with Fuinjutsu. _*BUT*, that is only a *possibility*._ It isn't certain because it isn't _proven._ It's an assumption, an educated assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. That is why it's used as support. 

On the other hand, feats are not assumptions, but facts. For example:

1. Raikage is too slow to touch Minato. (Can be factually proven)
2. Tsunade is slower than the Raikage. (Can be factually proven)
3. Tsunade is too slow to touch Minato. (Logical conclusion based on the above facts)

That is a feat-based argument in favor of Minato against Tsunade, and it is LOGICALLY SOUND. 



> Not if the starting distance is great enough.



Unless you make it some asinine starting distance so that Sai can draw the bird, hop on it, and it can fly out of the Raikage's flicker range...Sai fucking gets blitzed.

However, if _you do_ make it some asinine starting distance, that's stacking the conditions massively in favor of Sai, which doesn't prove anything. I can say "Base Naruto starts with his Rasengan already formed 3 inches from Mei, who wins?" That doesn't make Base Naruto more powerful or better than Mei in anyway. I just created unfair conditions.



> Very few battles in the manga is match up more important than Kishi's idea of power-levels. Maybe if two ninja are relatively within the same league match up might play a role, in how much difficulty one faces, or might tip things slightly in ones favor, if they were otherwise a bit weaker, but the instances where we see this happen are few and far between.



That's because we rarely see Ninja on the same level fight. When we do, the match-up plays a factor. Hebi Sasuke vs. Deidara, Gai (no 8th Gate) vs Kisame, etc. Speaking of Kisame, he outright defeated B, who is on a much higher level than him in my opinion. But my opinion doesn't mean much in the end, bringing me to my last point:

YOU ARE NOT KISHIMOTO. The only person who truly knows what "Kishimoto's power levels" are is...*gasp*...KISHIMOTO. He changes his mind just as often as we change ours, and do you know why that it? BECAUSE WE'RE ALL HUMAN.

Hiruzen was stated to be history's strongest, until Hagoromo was revealed. 

Then Hagoromo became the end-all be-all, until Kaguya was revealed. 

Oh, and the timeline. Don't get me started on that shit. Do you know exactly how fucked the timeline is because of Tobito? LOL at 14-year-old Obito bitch-atizing the Kyubi & stepping with the 4th Hokage. Another one: Kakashi becomes a Chunin at 6 as stated in Part 1, but later Kishi draws Kakashi taking the Chunin exams with Obito and Rin.......THREE YEARS BEFORE THEY GRADUATED FROM THE ACADEMY. 

It's nearly impossible to predict what's going on in Kishimoto's mind, because it's constantly changing, so we use as many facts as possible. The only facts in the Manga are character statements (though keep in mind these can be retconed if they're old and contradicted by new statements) and....feats. Why do you think posters still pay you mind when you claim Prime Hizuzen to be stronger than Hashirama? Because it's a fact, and facts > all.


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## Kaiser (Apr 5, 2014)

Portrayal alone doesn't determine a winner in a versus battle. Match-ups or circumstances can turn the side of battles. A can have an advantage over B allowing him to win that C doesn't possess while having the advantage over/being stronger than A. 

Portrayal is also very variable. Yes Kabuto did say Hiruzen had the reputation to be the strongest Kage alive in part1, but when actually was his power rated? It's not like he actively participated in a battle since Kyubi's attack to accurately judge. 

It's possible the reputation came from the last time we actually saw him fighting and the last time we saw him fighting was 16years ago. In the meantime, he grew old while other Kages possibly grew stronger, making a past reputation possibly invalid

Portrayal also depends on the scenario at hand. During the Kage sumit for example, A was portrayed to be stronger than Killer-Bee plenty of times with C starting to think someone who resisted to A possibly did manage to capture Bee, yet during the war, it turned side

A was also portrayed to be the strongest of the Gokage during this sumit with Kishimoto even giving him full authority over the alliance, yet during the war, the title of strongest was given to Onoki

So i don't think using portrayal alone should justify who would win in a fight. It helps to have an apprehension concerning a level in which opponents are placed, but feats are also important.


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## Rocky (Apr 5, 2014)

Turrin said:
			
		

> What feats am I looking at? I'm looking at performance in terms of accomplishments, which goes towards portrayal.



I also don't know how I missed this before..

"I'm looking at performance in terms of _accomplishments_" is the same thing as "I'm looking at performance in terms of _feats_."

THE TWO WORDS ARE SYNONYMOUS.  

Even you use feats in your "portrayal only" arguments. That's because portrayal only is impossible without the ability to read Kishi's mind.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> This is the problem. How do you, personally, know that we haven't seen any character's full arsenal?
> .


In some cases we know for sure; Kakashi's 1,000 Jutsu for example. In most cases, it is thee most likely conclusion. Why? Because we have characters as featured as B, Gaara, etc... and they are still demonstrating new abilities, Jutsu, etc.... So if characters with that much panel time still have major things we haven't seen, most characters discussed in the NBD, are likely to have more to show us. We can also further look into this on a cases by cases basis and specific aspects of a character characterization, can also tip us off to the fact that it is likely they have more Jutsu.



> You see, it really depends on whom we're talking about. Take somebody like Minato. We know that aside from his Hiraishin, he's also known for his Fuinjutsu right? Well, we haven't seen much of it in action, so sometimes, posters (like myself) will suggest that Minato may defeat an opponent (that he can't take out with a Kunai because of durability or regeneration) with Fuinjutsu. BUT, that is only a possibility. It isn't certain because it isn't proven. It's an assumption, an educated assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. That is why it's used as support.


Of course it's not certain, that's why I said only Kishimoto himself knows the characters full arsenals



> On the other hand, feats are not assumptions, but facts. For example:
> 
> 1. Raikage is too slow to touch Minato. (Can be factually proven)
> 2. Tsunade is slower than the Raikage. (Can be factually proven)
> 3. Tsunade is too slow to touch Minato. (Logical conclusion based on the above facts)


The middle one is the only one that can be factually proven, because we have statements and DB-Stats. Not to say you couldn't look at "feats" and arrive at the same conclusion, but we are able to do so because we'd be comparing specifically well defined abilities/Jutsu, which all along I've said is an okay usage of feats if your careful enough.

The other two assertions are not facts, at all, because we don't know all the variables. It's possible that Tsunade or Ei could have some ability/Jutsu or strategy we haven't seen that would allow them to hit Minato, despite his superior speed. The reason why that's less likely in this example or if they did hit him that he'd still win, is not "feats", but that Minato has clearly been portrayed as the superior Ninja, and therefore Kishi is unlikely to have him loose to Tsunade or Ei. So if they pulled out something to new to combat Hiraishin, Minato would probably pull out something new or find his way around it. 



> That is a feat-based argument in favor of Minato against Tsunade, and it is LOGICALLY SOUND.


The conclusion that Minato > Tsunade may be logically sound, but the avenue for getting there is not logically sound imo.



> Unless you make it some asinine starting distance so that Sai can draw the bird, hop on it, and it can fly out of the Raikage's flicker range...Sai fucking gets blitzed.
> 
> However, if you do make it some asinine starting distance, that's stacking the conditions massively in favor of Sai, which doesn't prove anything. I can say "Base Naruto starts with his Rasengan already formed 3 inches from Mei, who wins?" That doesn't make Base Naruto more powerful or better than Mei in anyway. I just created unfair conditions.


The thing is the deck is always stacked in Ei's favor to begin with, because people assume he starts with R2-Shunshin every match and use it consistently throughout the match, which is not been how the character has been portrayed. In reality Ei would probably start in base or at most R1 against an enemy like Sai. So the distance does not have to be so asinine for Sai to be able to escape to his bird; one of the common NBD distances like 20-30m is more than enough, where Sai will have time to draw his bird and fly out of Ei's range. 

However ultimately I agree that we need to make conditions more advantageous to Sai, than Ei to create the scenario where Sai flies away in time to make Ei struggle with him. However it's not to the extent that your making it out to be and it's still ridiculously silly how hard Ei would have to struggle with Sai, even in scenario that advantages Sai, because he is the dam Raikage and logically would stomp the hell out of Sai no matter whether the conditions favor Sai more or not. However such is the illogical nature of "Feat" centric discussion.



> That's because we rarely see Ninja on the same level fight. When we do, the match-up plays a factor. Hebi Sasuke vs. Deidara, Gai (no 8th Gate) vs Kisame, etc. Speaking of Kisame, he outright defeated B, who is on a much higher level than him in my opinion. But my opinion doesn't mean much in the end, bringing me to my last point:


Sasuke vs Deidara match really didn't matter, much as at the end of the battle Kishi has Sasuke suggest he could have won regardless. Gai > Kisame.  Kisame and B is the only valid example of yours where we see a character that could be argued to otherwise be weaker than the other, but won due to match ups; however in the end circumstance such as B not being able to use Hachibi-Form and having to protect Sabo and Ponta can be argued to have matter even more than that, and it is left open ended.



> YOU ARE NOT KISHIMOTO. The only person who truly knows what "Kishimoto's power levels" are is...*gasp*...KISHIMOTO. He changes his mind just as often as we change ours, and do you know why that it? BECAUSE WE'RE ALL HUMAN.


When did I assert I was Kishimoto lol. I specifically said only Kishimoto knows their full arsenals, now your accusing me of saying I know as much as Kishimoto. Sorry, but that makes no sense bruv.



> Hiruzen was stated to be history's strongest, until Hagoromo was revealed.
> 
> Then Hagoromo became the end-all be-all, until Kaguya was revealed.


Kishimoto only had Hiruzen stated to be history's strongest in the context of Shinobi. Hagoromo and Kaguya aren't Shinobi, they practice the way of Ninshuu or perhaps nothing in the case of Kaguya. Whether or not Kishi changed his mind IDK, however there is leeway there where Hiruzen can be stated the strongest Shinobi, while none Shinobi characters can still be presented stronger than him.



> Oh, and the timeline. Don't get me started on that shit. Do you know exactly how fucked the timeline is because of Tobito? LOL at 14-year-old Obito bitch-atizing the Kyubi & stepping with the 4th Hokage. Another one: Kakashi becomes a Chunin at 6 as stated in Part 1, but later Kishi draws Kakashi taking the Chunin exams with Obito and Rin.......THREE YEARS BEFORE THEY GRADUATED FROM THE ACADEMY.


Oh I know how fucked the time-line is and have never once defended it. 



> 's nearly impossible to predict what's going on in Kishimoto's mind, because it's constantly changing, so we use as many facts as possible. The only facts in the Manga are character statements (though keep in mind these can be retconed if they're old and contradicted by new statements) and....feats. Why do you think posters still pay you mind when you claim Prime Hizuzen to be stronger than Hashirama? Because it's a fact, and facts > all.


Your explaining something I'm already very aware of that, when talking in the NBD every one is trying to come to the likely conclusion, not thee absolutely conclusion. However, this does not mean that feat-centric discussion is suddenly credible because even with portrayal we can come only to a likely conclusion, because most of the time with feats, we can't even arrive at a conclusion we can assert as likely in terms of who would win a match or who is holistically the superior shinobi


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## Rocky (Apr 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> In some cases we know for sure; Kakashi's 1,000 Jutsu for example. In most cases, it is thee most likely conclusion. Why? Because we have characters as featured as B, Gaara, etc... and they are still demonstrating new abilities, Jutsu, etc.... So if characters with that much panel time still have major things we haven't seen, most characters discussed in the NBD, are likely to have more to show us. We can also further look into this on a cases by cases basis and specific aspects of a character characterization, can also tip us off to the fact that it is likely they have more Jutsu.



_In some cases._ Kakashi & Hiruzen are obvious examples because we have statements telling us that we haven't seen everything.

B hasn't demonstrated anything new in a while, and Gaara got some some feats while hooked up to Shukaku, but my overall point is that it _varies._ You can't just say "Tsunade may have some unknown Jutsu to hit Minato herpa derpa" and then cite B & Gaara for your examples. Instead, you should be citing reasons as to why _Tsunade_ might have a certain Jutsu to hit Minato. 



> Of course it's not certain, that's why I said only Kishimoto himself knows the characters full arsenals



But it is impossible to guess what Kishimoto is thinking. Notice how every posters tier list in the BD varies, yet we all think that our own most accurately reflects how Kishimoto views the characters. Only kishi will know the "power levels," unless he shows us though STATEMENTS & FEATS.



> The other two assertions are not facts, at all, because we don't know all the variables. It's possible that Tsunade or Ei could have some ability/Jutsu or strategy we haven't seen that would allow them to hit Minato, despite his superior speed.



My argument was based on Tsunade physically punching Minato using her speed. That's why I said touch. If Tsunade has some random Jutsu that allows her to punch Minato, it would have to be faster than the Raikage's flicker, which it isn't because she isn't faster than him.



> So if they pulled out something to new to combat Hiraishin, Minato would probably pull out something new or find his way around it.



Or they would just never pull out something to combat Hiraishin...



> The conclusion that Minato > Tsunade may be logically sound, but the avenue for getting there is not logically sound imo.



The problem is that you delve far too much into the unknown. For example:


If it rains, the street will be wet.
It rained.
Therefore, the streets are wet.

That is a logically sound conclusion. Now, you could say that somebody could place a multi-mile tarp over the streets and prevent them from getting wet, but that would be missing the point. That isn't how logic works.



> one of the common NBD distances like 20-30m is more than enough, where Sai will have time to draw his bird and fly out of Ei's range.



Ei would blitz the fuck out of Sai in v1 from 20-30m.



> because he is the dam Raikage and logically would stomp the hell out of Sai no matter whether the conditions favor Sai more or not. However such is the illogical nature of "Feat" centric discussion.



1. If the conditions favor anyone enough, that person can beat anyone. This isn't DBZ.

2. Why would the Raikage "logically" stomp the hell out of Sai? How do you know how powerful Sai is?



> Sasuke vs Deidara match really didn't matter, much as at the end of the battle Kishi has Sasuke suggest he could have won regardless. Gai > Kisame.  Kisame and B is the only valid example of yours where we see a character that could be argued to otherwise be weaker than the other, but won due to match ups; however in the end circumstance such as B not being able to use Hachibi-Form and having to protect Sabo and Ponta can be argued to have matter even more than that, and it is left open ended.



Sasuke would've have been dead against C4 had it not been for match-up. Kisame didn't have to face Biju Mode, but he has ways of dealing with it, particularly Daikodan.

Another one would be Neji vs Naruto. Neji was obviously portrayed in a higher light by both feats & statements, but Naruto won because the Kyubi supplied him with Chakra once Neji shut Naruto's own off. That was match-up, because had Neji fought anyone else, landing 64 palms is GG bro.



> Kishimoto only had Hiruzen stated to be history's strongest in the context of Shinobi. Hagoromo and Kaguya aren't Shinobi, they practice the way of Ninshuu or perhaps nothing in the case of Kaguya. Whether or not Kishi changed his mind IDK, however there is leeway there where Hiruzen can be stated the strongest Shinobi, while none Shinobi characters can still be presented stronger than him.



Hagoromo definitely used Ninjutsu to CT the Jubi into the moon, and Prime Hiruzen probably isn't stronger than Indra or Asura either. 


> Oh I know how fucked the time-line is and have never once defended it.



Proving Kishimoto can change his mind...



> Your explaining something I'm already very aware of that, when talking in the NBD every one is trying to come to the likely conclusion, not thee absolutely conclusion. However, this does not mean that feat-centric discussion is suddenly credible because even with portrayal we can come only to a likely conclusion, because most of the time with feats, we can't even arrive at a conclusion we can assert as likely in terms of who would win a match or who is holistically the superior shinobi



You have yet to realize that portrayal cannot function without feats & accomplishments. The Shinobi that is portrayed higher 95% of the time wins by feats anyway, unless the portrayal advantage isn't large enough (ie. Kisame vs. B, as opposed to something like Kisame vs. Hashirama). Then match-up plays in, like Hebi Sauce against Deidara who only won because Raiton > C4, or Kisame vs. B because Kisame is good against Jinchuriki.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> _In some cases._ Kakashi & Hiruzen are obvious examples because we have statements telling us that we haven't seen everything.


Agreed.



> B hasn't demonstrated anything new in a while


It hasn't been that long since we saw Continuos Bijuudama, Hachimaki, and Fuuinjutsu Octopus Hold. B hasn't shown anything new since then, but he hasn't been the focus of the action. 

With that said I don't think the temporality matters as much as panel time. B had several fights before the current one and tons of panel time; the fact that even with that much panel time we aren't aware of B's entire arsenal, is a pretty good indicator, that characters with much less panel time are likely to have more to show us.



> but my overall point is that it varies. You can't just say "Tsunade may have some unknown Jutsu to hit Minato herpa derpa" and then cite B & Gaara for your examples. Instead, you should be citing reasons as to why Tsunade might have a certain Jutsu to hit Minato.


I'm sorry, but this is only true if someone is stating it as a fact, which i'm not. I'm just saying that it is likely Tsunade has more Jutsu/abilities and it's possible she can use one or more to hit Minato. It's also possible that she could have nothing that can hit Minato. We don't know her entire arsenal, so we can't answer that question.

The problem with you original assertion is that you said, Tsunade can't hit Minato. You stated it as fact, when it's not.



> But it is impossible to guess what Kishimoto is thinking. Notice how every posters tier list in the BD varies, yet we all think that our own most accurately reflects how Kishimoto views the characters. Only kishi will know the "power levels," unless he shows us though STATEMENTS & FEATS.


How accurate of a guesstimate we can make depends on the information Kishi is giving us through the context of portrayal. If Kishi states one character is stronger than another, than it's easy; other times it might be less easy. 

I also think Tier-list in the NBD are so all over the place, because many are based on feats, my fav is the best logic, or people that simply don't have all the accurate statements available too them [basically a surface reading].

That's not to say that if everyone went off portrayal we'd come to a completely uniform tier list every-time, but it would be much closer imo, than what we have now.



> My argument was based on Tsunade physically punching Minato using her speed. That's why I said touch. If Tsunade has some random Jutsu that allows her to punch Minato,


Than like I said, all you can say is Tsunade is slower than the Raikage/Minato, that's it. Not that Tsunade can't hit them.



> If Tsunade has some random Jutsu that allows her to punch Minato, it would have to be faster than the Raikage's flicker, which it isn't because she isn't faster than him.


I'm sorry, but there is a-lot wrong here. Ei does not constantly use his max speed. We've seen characters clearly slower than Ei's max speed make contact with him. So already this supposition is wrong. On-top of that you seem to be boiling the entire manga down to a speed contest. There are other ways to make contact with a person besides being faster or equivalent to them in speed; it happens all the time. 



> Or they would just never pull out something to combat Hiraishin...


Maybe, but how do we know this for certain? 



> The problem is that you delve far too much into the unknown. For example:
> If it rains, the street will be wet.
> It rained.
> Therefore, the streets are wet.
> ...


Rocky, you are the one this example applies to, though lol. Your coming up with these detailed analysis based on what one character has shown, to describe why they would win. You are delving deep into the unknown, of hey character uses X-Jutsu and Y-Character can't counter it; we don't know that shit, though. On other other hand i'm not even going there and just saying one character has been portrayed as superior, so that character is likely to win; the means is a non-issue.



> Ei would blitz the fuck out of Sai in v1 from 20-30m.


Show me Ei's feat of crossing 20-30m before Sai can draw an ink bird and take flight.



> . If the conditions favor anyone enough, that person can beat anyone. This isn't DBZ.


Really? Tell me the condition where Mizuki beats Kaguya, and i'm talking minor changes to the conditions such as starting distance and knowledge.



> Why would the Raikage "logically" stomp the hell out of Sai? How do you know how powerful Sai is?


Because Sai has nowhere near the portrayal of Ei. Ei is the Raikage, it's a title that has been portrayed as only applying to the top ninjas in the 5 great nations; Sai has nothing like that. This on-top of all of Ei's other hype that blows Sai's out of the water.



> Sasuke would've have been dead against C4 had it not been for match-up.


Deidara could have died in the first few seconds of the match to CQC if Tobi wasn't there
Deidara directly asks Sasuke what he would have done if not for the Raiton advantage and Sasuke says he'd have been fine by using another Jutsu instead.

So nothing supports this, at all.



> Kisame didn't have to face Biju Mode, but he has ways of dealing with it, particularly Daikodan.


Maybe and maybe not. We haven't seen what the upper limits are of what Daikodan can absorb, can Kisame fire off Daikodan's as fast as Hachibi can fire continuos Bijuudama, how would Kisame deal with Hachimaki or Octopus Hold, etc... Again we this feat based shit is pointless. The only answer is we don't know how Kisame would have performed against Hachibi.



> Another one would be Neji vs Naruto. Neji was obviously portrayed in a higher light by both feats & statements, but Naruto won because the Kyubi supplied him with Chakra once Neji shut Naruto's own off. That was match-up, because had Neji fought anyone else, landing 64 palms is GG bro.


Again the stronger character won their. CE-Finals Naruto > Neji. 



> Hagoromo definitely used Ninjutsu to CT the Jubi into the moon, and Prime Hiruzen probably isn't stronger than Indra or Asura either


Using Ninjutsu and being a Shinobi are too different things. 

How Prime Hiruzen stacks up to Ashura, its totally unknown at this point.



> Proving Kishimoto can change his mind...


Proving Kishimoto doesn't care about one aspect of the story



> You have yet to realize that portrayal cannot function without feats & accomplishments.


Accomplishments is part of portrayal; not to be confused with feats. And actually you have it reversed. Feats can not function w/o portrayal, while portrayal can indeed function without feats. If portrayal tells us X-character is stronger we don't need to see any feats, to know it's likely that X- character will win. On the flip side of this if X-character seem like he could defeat Y-character based on the fact that Y-character hasn't shown a counter to Z-Jutsu, we still need to defer to portrayal, because we aren't aware of Y-character's complete arsenal.



> The Shinobi that is portrayed higher 95% of the time wins by feats anyway, unless the portrayal advantage isn't large enough (ie. Kisame vs. B, as opposed to something like Kisame vs. Hashirama).


Nope, it's more like when 95% of the entire forum agrees a character is superior both "feats" and "portrayal" support the conclusion. That's because the forum itself is often split between people who value "feats" more and those who value "portrayal" more. For example Old-Hiruzen has been portrayed stronger than Ei, so I considering him better than Ei, but many don't because of insert-feat-centrict-argument-here. So for a vast majority of people on the forum to agree that Old Hiruzen > Ei he'd need the portrayal and the "feats". However that doesn't mean that once Old-Hiruzen gets the feats Kishi is only now letting us know Old -Hiruzen > Ei, because he did a long time ago via portrayal, it's just only are certain poster accepting it.



> Then match-up plays in, like Hebi Sauce against Deidara who only won because Raiton > C4,


The manga directly tells us this is not the case. So I can safely say that is 100% factually incorrect.


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## Rocky (Apr 5, 2014)

I'm on a cell phone, so I won't go into detail just yet. A few things though:

1.) You say accomplishments count towards portrayal, which is incorrect. The definition of "accomplishment"  is synonymous with "feat." Please stop arguing with the dictionary. 

2.) You say the Raikage is "portrayed"  better than Sai. What is that based off of? Just rank? I mean, Naruto is a Genin. Kakashi and Gas are Jonin. There are no statements that say "Sai < Kage," so how exactly do you know he's "portrayed" worse?


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm on a cell phone, so I won't go into detail just yet. A few things though:
> 
> 1.) You say accomplishments count towards portrayal, which is incorrect. The definition of "accomplishment"  is synonymous with "feat." Please stop arguing with the dictionary.


True the definition is synonymous, but not how we use it on the forums. "Feats" mean a specific thing to a-lot of people on the forums, while accomplishments mean something different. That's why i'm using that terminology.



> You say the Raikage is "portrayed" better than Sai. What is that based off of? Just rank? I mean, Naruto is a Genin. Kakashi and Gas are Jonin. There are no statements that say "Sai < Kage," so how exactly do you know he's "portrayed" worse?


It's not rank, it's that Sai has never been portrayed to be as strong as one of the top ninja from the great 5 nations; so i'd consider any Kage better than Sai, at this juncture.


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## Rocky (Apr 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> True the definition is synonymous, but not how we use it on the forums. "Feats" mean a specific thing to a-lot of people on the forums, while accomplishments mean something different. That's why i'm using that terminology.



I'm sorry, but _I_ use the term "feats" as defined by its fucking definition. So does everyone else, that's why we call them "feats." A feat is simply something a character has done. Nothing more, nothing less.



> It's that Sai has never been portrayed to be as strong as one of the top ninja from the great 5 nations.



This. Explain this. How do you know? What are you basing it off of if not accomplishments & feats?


*Spoiler*: _The rest from last post_ 





Turrin said:


> Characters with much less panel time are likely to have more to show us.



That's obvious. It cannot be proven though. All you can say is "it's a possibility."

It also depends on the character. For example, someone like Sakumo certainly has abilities we don't know of, because there is nothing he has shown that currently puts him on par with the Sannin. However, The Second Mizukage has already fought using his best Jutsu, so we don't have much else to see from him. We can reasonably speculate that he has basic Suiton Jutsu, but nothing game-breaking that is really going to change the outcome of a fight.



> I'm just saying that it is likely Tsunade has more Jutsu/abilities and it's possible she can use one or more to hit Minato.



Why is this....likely?



> The problem with you original assertion is that you said, Tsunade can't hit Minato. You stated it as fact, when it's not.



I said she is too slow because she is slower than the Raikage, who could not _physically hit_ Minato. If she has a jutsu _separate from speed_, that is a different matter.



> How accurate of a guesstimate we can make depends on the information Kishi is giving us through the context of portrayal. If Kishi states one character is stronger than another, than it's easy; other times it might be less easy.



Kishimoto displays how each character is portrayed their through accomplishments, achievements, or FEATS. They all mean the same thing.



> I'm sorry, but there is a-lot wrong here. Ei does not constantly use his max speed. We've seen characters clearly slower than Ei's max speed make contact with him. So already this supposition is wrong. On-top of that you seem to be boiling the entire manga down to a speed contest. There are other ways to make contact with a person besides being faster or equivalent to them in speed; it happens all the time.



I think you're misunderstanding my point. Tsunade has other means of "hitting" Minato (or at least attempting to) that don't involve her speed, such as playing dead or using Katsuyu. 

The feat-based argument I provided only proves that Tsunade is too slow to simply run at Minato and punch him. Let me reword it so it sounds better:

1.) Raikage is too slow to _blitz_ Minato.
2.) Tsunade is slower than the Raikage.
3.) Therefore, Tsunade is too slow to blitz Minato.

It wasn't meant to prove that Minato would win. I would need to whole bunch of those logical chains to prove why it's more likely that Minato would win. His character statements alone don't really trump Tsunade's enough to the point where I would say he's "portrayed better."



> Show me Ei's feat of crossing 20-30m before Sai can draw an ink bird and take flight.



Ei hasn't fought Sai, so there are no on panel showings of that. I can tell you that Ei's blitzed CS2 Jugo & kept up with KCM Naruto, who blitzed Kisame. Those two are faster than Sai, and Sai has to go through the entire process of drawing the bird and getting on, then he _still_ has to fly out of Ei's range. It's pretty clear that Sai doesn't have much chance in escaping.

I would use Ei's "fastest shinobi since the 4th" portrayal to support that.



> Really? Tell me the condition where Mizuki beats Kaguya, and i'm talking minor changes to the conditions such as starting distance and knowledge.



If it's Tiger Mizuki, this is self explanatory. 

Seriously though, those are extremes. I guess it's my fault for wording it that way though. Here's what I mean:

If I start Mifune 1ft away from Mei, he fucking cuts her in half no dif. Does this mean Mifune is tiers above Mei?



> Again the stronger character won their. CE-Finals Naruto > Neji.



I don't know how you can say Naruto was portrayed better than Neji. Neji was portrayed as a genius child and freak of nature that Kakashi didn't even think could exist. Naruto was constantly considered a knucklehead...



> Using Ninjutsu and being a Shinobi are too different things.



So what does being a Shinobi mean.



> Proving Kishimoto doesn't care about one aspect of the story



Which opens up the possibility of him not caring about many aspects, or simply changing his mind about some.



> If portrayal tells us X-character is stronger we don't need to see any feats, to know it's likely that X- character will win.



If you're talking about character statements, than I agree. Jubito > Hashirama because of the statement, regardless of how Jubito deals with Shin Suusenju. Itachi > Orochimaru is another example.

However, without any statements, it's impossible to tell who is "portrayed better" without using their accomplishments & feats. 



> For example Old-Hiruzen has been portrayed stronger than Ei, so I considering him better than Ei.



Hiruzen has a better reputation than Ei (and Hashirama), but as I've told you in the past, old age doesn't necessarily factor into that reputation. Hiruzen & old Hiruzen are the same person. One's reputation doesn't change when one get's older.



> The manga directly tells us this is not the case. So I can safely say that is 100% factually incorrect.



I didn't know about that statement. Could you link me?


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## Rocky (Apr 5, 2014)

Turrin, feats aren't just on-panel Jutsu that characters have displayed. That's ridiculous and it was never that way. If I made a thread titled "CE Rock lee vs. Rikudo Sennin" and made an argument such as "Rikudo doesn't have the speed feats to react to gated Lee or the durability feats to tank any of his punches," do you think *half* of the BD would agree with me? No, because Rikudo has "feats" of beating the Jubi, which completely shits on all of Rock Lee's feats. Taking down that beast would require a level of speed, strength, durability, and hax that would be _way_ more than enough to avoid being overwhelmed by Gated Lee, who's best feat is blitzing preskip Gaara. *Everyone* would neg me to death and laugh in my face.

I think we've both confused and twisted "feats" and "portrayal" into the same thing. Going off of on-panel Jutsu only isn't flawed because of Kishimoto. It's flawed because of a fallacy. Have you ever heard of "absence of evidence doesn't indicate evidence of absence?" Nobody uses that bad logic alone in an argument. They also support it with other things the character has done, or statements that would suggest the character has the advantage. 


*Spoiler*: _ SUPER Example_ 



Say I make the claim "Sandaime Raikage beats Mei because he can survive anything she has and eventually catch her/outlast her" that is based on the following:

_1.) Mabui's statements regarding the Raikage's defensive capabilities. (Statement)

2.) Dodai claiming that the only techniques that work on him are high-level Futon. Mei lacks a Futon affinity. (Statement)

3.) Sandaime fought the Hachibi to a draw, proving Biju level stamina & defense staunch enough to survive against the offensive prowess of a Biju (Feat)

4.) Sandaime fought for three days straight, further solidifying claims of his incredible endurance. (Feat)

5.) Mei's apparent lack of a way past Madara's Susano'o. Sandaime has shown comparable defense to Susano'o, so she cannot hurt him. (Feat)

6.) Sandaime tanking Rasenshuriken (Feat), which was the most powerful wind attack from the most powerful wind user in the alliance (Statement)._

Now, keep in mind that there are no certainties in these hypothetical match-ups. This is to figure out what is _most likely_. You could say that Mei might have a way past Susano'o to try and disprove point 4, but it didn't come out versus Susano'o, so I don't find that likely. You could say that Mei possibly has a more powerful offense than Gyuki or a better Futon attack than KCM Naruto to try and invalidate points 3 & 5, but again, that is _highly_ unlikely (based on other feats and statements that I can provide if you would like). Lastly, you could question the credibility of the people making the statements (points 1, 2, and 5), but we have been literally no reason to believe that Mabui, Dodai, and Naruto don't know what they're talking about.

So as you can see, I've constructed an argument for Sandaime based on both feats & portrayal (statements). If I just used on-panel feats only and went "herp derp Rasenshuriken > Mei's arsenal," anyone could literally say that the Acid Mist functions differently than Rasenshuriken and my point is moot. I would then need to use the _statements_ about Sandaime being resistant to all types of elements, including Katon, meaning he is heat resistant. Furthermore, using Mabui's statements, I can prove that even Sandaime's innards are durable, meaning breathing in the Acid Mist may not be a major problem for him.

On the other hand, if I just use the statements, all I can say is that Mei probably cannot beat Sandaime because she lacks Futon and Sandaime is a-okay against everything else. That doesn't cover all bases. Are we sure it isn't hyperbole, like how Kusanagi was stated to pierce anything when it can't? Can Mei outlast Raikage? Is there a specific weakness to his defense? These things were explained by looking at what the Raikage has done in battle, A.K.A. FEATS.

All in all, you combine both to form the strongest argument. Neither functions well on its own, because usually they go hand in hand. Whether or not you agree with all of the points I made regarding Mei is irrelevant. _That is where the debate comes in._ 

If Kishimoto tells us that one character is stronger than another, you are correct, we need nothing more (I agree that direct statements regarding two characters are the best way to define tiers). HOWEVER, if one character has a feat, such as beating up Jubidara, it's incredibly slim that a character like Jiraiya has an answer to that, because Jiraiya has no accomplishments or statements that suggest he is more competent than Jubidara in anyway.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm sorry, but _I_ use the term "feats" as defined by its fucking definition. So does everyone else, that's why we call them "feats." A feat is simply something a character has done. Nothing more, nothing less.


First off you need to chill. Second, you've been on the forum for 2-Years, I've been here for much longer than that, so trying to lecture me on how the terms are used, is silly. Plenty of people use the terms the exact same way I'm using them. If you want to use "feats" as a term to encompass both things than fine, but it still should be apparent the distinction i'm making. If it's not consider it the difference between "what abilities/Jutsu a character has shown and how he/she's utilized them" (Feats) vs "a character's track-record" achievements/accomplishments/etc...



> his. Explain this. How do you know? What are you basing it off of if not accomplishments & feats?


Because again when has Sai been indicated to be as strong as one of the strongest shinobi in the 5 great nations. I mean I don't know what you want from me beyond that.



> his. Explain this. How do you know? What are you basing it off of if not accomplishments & feats?


Okay, never said it can be proven. I said it's likely or possible depending on a case by case basis



> It also depends on the character. For example, someone like Sakumo certainly has abilities we don't know of, because there is nothing he has shown that currently puts him on par with the Sannin. However, The Second Mizukage has already fought using his best Jutsu, so we don't have much else to see from him. We can reasonably speculate that he has basic Suiton Jutsu, but nothing game-breaking that is really going to change the outcome of a fight.


.
Sorry but this assertion is 100% baseless. We we're never told we saw all of his best shit and it's not always someone's triumph card that decides the match anyway. We saw Mizukage fight for 2 chapters; compare that to someone like B or Gaara's panel time and how we are still seeing new major shit from them. For all we know Mizukage could have mastered dozens of other Jutsu, he's seemingly a middle age Kage-level shinobi after all, that's a-lot of time to master a-lot of shit.



> Why is this....likely?


She's a 50 year old Sannin. That's tons of time to master new shit. Again look at her panel time in comparison to other character who keep pulling out major shit. Look at the fact that her students have shown other medical ninjutsu applications she is likely to have. Look at the fact that her Genjutsu stat is above average, heavily implying she knows some illusions. Look at her hype as the greatest medical ninja ever, do you really think she is unable to use some of the medical techniques we've seen characters like Kabuto utilize. Look at the fact that it's stated that most Jonin can utilized 2 elements and we've seen none from Tsunade.

Again this doesn't mean Tsunade 100% has more, but it stuff like this that makes it extremely likely.



> I said she is too slow because she is slower than the Raikage, who could not physically hit Minato. If she has a jutsu separate from speed, that is a different matter.


Than once again it shouldn't be Tsunade can't hit Ei/Minato, but Tsunade is slower than Ei/Minato



> Kishimoto displays how each character is portrayed their through accomplishments, achievements, or FEATS. They all mean the same thing.


Sure, but again the issue is that Kishi does not have time to show a characters full arresenal. So he can show some stuff, but not all of it, which makes character-x > character-y, because character-y hasn't shown a counter to z-ability/jutsu a flawed system. 



> 1.) Raikage is too slow to blitz Minato.
> 2.) Tsunade is slower than the Raikage.
> 3.) Therefore, Tsunade is too slow to blitz Minato.
> 
> It wasn't meant to prove that Minato would win


Okay, that's fine, i'm just saying what you said before was not a fact.



> . I would need to whole bunch of those logical chains to prove why it's more likely that Minato would win. *His character statements alone don't really trump Tsunade's enough to the point where I would say he's "portrayed better*.


Really!? I struggle to imagine you see it that way with all the ridiculous hype that's been given to him.



> *Ei hasn't fought Sai, so there are no on panel showings of that.* I can tell you that Ei's blitzed CS2 Jugo & kept up with KCM Naruto, who blitzed Kisame. Those two are faster than Sai, and Sai has to go through the entire process of drawing the bird and getting on, then he still has to fly out of Ei's range. It's pretty clear that Sai doesn't have much chance in escaping.


This is my entire point. By feats Ei has never been shown to cross that distance, that fast. 



> If it's Tiger Mizuki, this is self explanatory


But you see my point though?



> I don't know how you can say Naruto was portrayed better than Neji. Neji was portrayed as a genius child and freak of nature that Kakashi didn't even think could exist. Naruto was constantly considered a knucklehead...


KN0-Naruto stomped Haku. KN0-Naruto was able to beat Gaara, even when he transformed into Shukaku. He had was channeling the power of one of the most hype entities ever. Just got trained by a legendary Sannin. I could go on if you like?



> So what does being a Shinobi mean.


What being a Shinobi means doesn't matter, because the title and concept didn't even exist back then. I mean you wouldn't call someone a Basket-Ball player, simply because they played some game that is very similar to Basket-Ball, before Basket-Ball became an actual sport. You might say they have similarities and might say the person would have been a great Basket-Ball player. But it's not going to be wrong if you call Michael Jordon the best Basket Ball player of all time, than later find out someone a 1,000 years before Basket Ball was invented played a very similar game, and had a better record than Michael Jordon. 

You can say this is semantical, but I'm simply saying Kishi left himself leeway, with how he made Rikudo/Kaguya exist before the idea of a Shinobi did.



> Which opens up the possibility of him not caring about many aspects, or simply changing his mind about some.


This is something we have to deal with in all regards. That includes feats, and in-fact Kishi seems to play around with the idea of feats much more so than he's been shown to do with portrayal. In-fact I can't think of a single example where we have proof that Kishimoto portrayed a character on a certain level and than completely retecon'd that



> If you're talking about character statements, than I agree. Jubito > Hashirama because of the statement, regardless of how Jubito deals with Shin Suusenju. Itachi > Orochimaru is another example.
> 
> However, without any statements, it's impossible to tell who is "portrayed better" without using their accomplishments & feats.


Well first of all I consider accomplishments part of portrayal, and I also fundamentally disagree with this notion. Besides direct statements we also have DB-Stat Totals that tell us how the author envisions a characters overall "level/ability". So I don't need a statement that says Itachi is on a higher level than Hidan as his DB-Stats already reflect this. Besides that there general strength statements, if Jiriaya is questioning how anyone can beat Hanzo, it's likely that Konohamaru is not beating Hanzo [Extreme example, but illustrates my point]. Than we have accomplishments/achievements. Orochimaru beating Yondaime Kazekage, tells us that Orochimaru is at least better than some Kages: if someone struggles or gets demolished by Yondaime-Kazekage who Orochimaru defeated, it's likely that Orochimaru is superior to that person. So on and so forth.

And before you say we don't know any of this for certain, take note of the fact that I said  "likely".



> Hiruzen has a better reputation than Ei (and Hashirama), but as I've told you in the past, old age doesn't necessarily factor into that reputation. Hiruzen & old Hiruzen are the same person. One's reputation doesn't change when one get's older.


And as I told you, you are going out of your way to ignore the context...which should tell you that your reaching too far for an excuse.



> I didn't know about that statement. Could you link me?



Deidara, Then what the hell were you gonna do if you were wrong, 
and it detonated anyway?!

Sasuke: That would've forced me 
to use my "other" option...but I didn't end up needing it.

Dei: Even after all that...he still had something up his sleeve...

I could get a better Viz trans if you want, but basically, Deidara is questioning Sasuke what he would have done if Raiton couldn't counter his bombs, to which Sasuke responds it didn't matter because he had another option to deal with Deidara regardless; speculatively this is probably referring to Kirin.

Edit: Actually now that I think about it Hebi-Sasuke is a really good example of what i'm talking about. 

Hebi Sasuke had a feature fight against Deidara, however despite this in his next fights he still showed a-lot of new shit;  Chidori Eisou mace form, White-Snake Regen, summoning different shuriken, chidori channeled on the ground, chidori channeled through a thrown weapon, new katon, Oral-Rebirth, different Genjutsu, Kirin, etc... (probably more i'm not thinking of). In-fact even now were learning about skills Hebi-Sasuke may have had back then, but didn't show like Kuchiyose: Aoda, Reversing the Hojin-Seal, etc... If we evaluated Sasuke one feats after the Deidara fight, how accurate would an analysis be, when he still had so much shit up his sleeve?


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## Rocky (Apr 5, 2014)

I'm on a phone again, so I'll only address one thing for now. 

I do not give one single fuck what your, or the different posters of the battledome's personal definition of 'feat" is. If it doesn't match the definition that's in the dictionary, then it is _wrong. _ A character's portrayal is based off their feats and other statements regarding them (and the people they've fought). 

My join date has nothing to do with the definition of feat. Don't act like your time here makes you more enlightened on the matter. The battledome's active posters are constantly changing, and I've seen plenty of people use the term feat correctly. How different character's use their own Jutsu are a character's feats, yes. A character's accomplishments are also their feats. That's what the damn word means.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm on a phone again, so I'll only address one thing for now.
> 
> I do not give one single fuck what your, or the different posters of the battledome's personal definition of 'feat" is. If it doesn't match the definition that's in the dictionary, then it is _wrong. _ A character's portrayal is based off their feats and other statements regarding them (and the people they've fought).
> 
> My join date has nothing to do with the definition of feat. Don't act like your time here makes you more enlightened on the matter. The battledome's active posters are constantly changing, and I've seen plenty of people use the term feat correctly. How different character's use their own Jutsu are a character's feats, yes. A character's accomplishments are also their feats. That's what the damn word means.


You seem to be missing something. The actual definition of the word is not germane to this discussion as I am only speaking towards what the concept represents & is utilized within the context of these forums. Saying oh, but the definition says this, is pointless, because the discussion has never been about the definition of the "word", it has been about the reasoning the word represents on the forums. So again what is the point of parroting this definition to me. I can understand if you were having some difficulty understanding the distinction I was making because you were following the dictionary definition of the word, but i've now made the distinction clear to you; so I repeat what is the point, let alone to gets so pissed off about it.

And yes my time here is going to make me more aware of how certain concepts have been discussed over the years on the forums and to many people on the forums "feats" and "accomplishments" stand for different things, than the dictionary definition would otherwise indicate. I'm simply adopting the forums lingo if you will; I can say the same thing using other words that are not defined similarly in the dictionary, but it wouldn't have the immediate recognition that these words do for most posters.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You seem to be missing something. The actual definition of the word is not germane to this discussion as I am only speaking towards what the concept represents & is utilized within the context of these forums. Saying oh, but the definition says this, is pointless, because the discussion has never been about the definition of the "word", it has been about the reasoning the word represents on the forums. So again what is the point of parroting this definition to me. I can understand if you were having some difficulty understanding the distinction I was making because you were following the dictionary definition of the word, but i've now made the distinction clear to you; so I repeat what is the point, let alone to gets so pissed off about it.
> 
> And yes my time here is going to make me more aware of how certain concepts have been discussed over the years on the forums and to many people on the forums "feats" and "accomplishments" stand for different things, than the dictionary definition would otherwise indicate. I'm simply adopting the forums lingo if you will; I can say the same thing using other words that are not defined similarly in the dictionary, but it wouldn't have the immediate recognition that these words do for most posters.




I'll reiterate: I don't care what concept you believe the word represents. 

"Feats" is not "Battledome lingo". I know plenty of people, myself included, that use the term just as it's defined in the actual dictionary, and we're all part of the BD. If you think otherwise, please link me to the page where the BD unanimously agreed that feats is defined as "what abilities/Jutsu a character has shown and how he/she's utilized them," rather than what it says in the dictionary. That's part of their feats, but so are "accomplishments, track record, etc." 

When most people speak of portrayal, they're speaking of character statements. That's why people who are hardcore "feats only" still don't believe people like Lee beat Hiruzen via speed-blitz, or guys like Kakashi can beat Rikudo. 

But generally, I think we both agree at this point so let's stop arguing semantics; "what abilities/Jutsu a character has shown and how he/she's utilized them" doesn't indicate who would win a fight alone. However, I never really said supported that. Did you not see my super example of Mei vs. Sandaime? I made a pro-sandaime argument that used both feats (accomplishments) and portrayal (direct statements). 

I took into consideration what both Mei & Sandaime have displayed on-panel (your definition of "feats"), what Sandaime's done in the past off-panel (still his feats) and what characters have said regarding him. Using that, I constructed what I believe to be the best argument one could make for Sandaime against Mei, because it factors in _everything Kishi has shown or told us_ to come to the conclusion of who would most likely win, in his opinion.

Here:


*Spoiler*: _ SUPER Example_ 



Say I make the claim "Sandaime Raikage beats Mei because he can survive anything she has and eventually catch her/outlast her" that is based on the following:

_1.) Mabui's statements regarding the Raikage's defensive capabilities. (Statement)

2.) Dodai claiming that the only techniques that work on him are high-level Futon. Mei lacks a Futon affinity. (Statement)

3.) Sandaime fought the Hachibi to a draw, proving Biju level stamina & defense staunch enough to survive against the offensive prowess of a Biju (Feat)

4.) Sandaime fought for three days straight, further solidifying claims of his incredible endurance. (Feat)

5.) Mei's apparent lack of a way past Madara's Susano'o. Sandaime has shown comparable defense to Susano'o, so she cannot hurt him. (Feat)

6.) Sandaime tanking Rasenshuriken (Feat), which was the most powerful wind attack from the most powerful wind user in the alliance (Statement)._

Now, keep in mind that there are no certainties in these hypothetical match-ups. This is to figure out what is _most likely_. You could say that Mei might have a way past Susano'o to try and disprove point 4, but it didn't come out versus Susano'o, so I don't find that likely. You could say that Mei possibly has a more powerful offense than Gyuki or a better Futon attack than KCM Naruto to try and invalidate points 3 & 5, but again, that is _highly_ unlikely (based on other feats and statements that I can provide if you would like). Lastly, you could question the credibility of the people making the statements (points 1, 2, and 5), but we have been literally no reason to believe that Mabui, Dodai, and Naruto don't know what they're talking about.

So as you can see, I've constructed an argument for Sandaime based on both feats & portrayal (statements). If I just used on-panel feats only and went "herp derp Rasenshuriken > Mei's arsenal," anyone could literally say that the Acid Mist functions differently than Rasenshuriken and my point is moot. I would then need to use the _statements_ about Sandaime being resistant to all types of elements, including Katon, meaning he is heat resistant. Furthermore, using Mabui's statements, I can prove that even Sandaime's innards are durable, meaning breathing in the Acid Mist may not be a major problem for him.

On the other hand, if I just use the statements, all I can say is that Mei probably cannot beat Sandaime because she lacks Futon and Sandaime is a-okay against everything else. That doesn't cover all bases. Are we sure it isn't hyperbole, like how Kusanagi was stated to pierce anything when it can't? Can Mei outlast Raikage? Is there a specific weakness to his defense? These things were explained by looking at what the Raikage has done in battle, A.K.A. FEATS.

All in all, you combine both to form the strongest argument. Neither functions well on its own, because usually they go hand in hand. Whether or not you agree with all of the points I made regarding Mei is irrelevant. _That is where the debate comes in._ 

If Kishimoto tells us that one character is stronger than another, you are correct, we need nothing more (I agree that direct statements regarding two characters are the best way to define tiers). HOWEVER, if one character has a feat, such as beating up Jubidara, it's incredibly slim that a character like Jiraiya has an answer to that, because Jiraiya has no accomplishments or statements that suggest he is more competent than Jubidara in anyway.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'll reiterate: I don't care what concept you believe the word represents.
> 
> "Feats" is not "Battledome lingo". I know plenty of people, myself included, that use the term just as it's defined in the actual dictionary, and we're all part of the BD. If you think otherwise, please link me to the page where the BD unanimously agreed that feats is defined as "what abilities/Jutsu a character has shown and how he/she's utilized them," rather than what it says in the dictionary. That's part of their feats, but so are "accomplishments, track record, etc."
> 
> When most people speak of portrayal, they're speaking of character statements. That's why people who are hardcore "feats only" still don't believe people like Lee beat Hiruzen via speed-blitz, or guys like Kakashi can beat Rikudo.


Rocky here's my problem with this BS.

1)You keep touting the definition of the word "feats", like your proving me wrong about something, but I never once said I was adhering to the dictionary definition in my usage of the word "feats"or argued that the dictionary definitions is the same as my own. So once again what is the point of this BS?

2) You seem to be implying that I claimed that there is some unanimous agreement on what the term "Feats" represents in the BD; that is utterly made up on your part and is a blatant straw-man. In-fact I challenge you to quote me saying that, otherwise admit that was utter BS you 100% made up, to make this pointless detour into semantics worthwhile.

3) What is even more hypocritical about this post is you ask me for a dam NBD historical record of people agreeing on a definition for the concept of "Feats", because I said quite a few people I have interacted with after being on the forums for years define "Feats" the sam way I am, but than in the same breath turn around and make claims like most people use portrayal in certain way, in-fact perpetrating the crime that you falsely accused me off.

I mean this part of your post is just utterly ridiculous on so many fundamental levels......So please just cut it out with this BS.



> Now, keep in mind that there are no certainties in these hypothetical match-ups. This is to figure out what is most likely. You could say that Mei might have a way past Susano'o to try and disprove point 4, but it didn't come out versus Susano'o, so I don't find that likely. You could say that Mei possibly has a more powerful offense than Gyuki or a better Futon attack than KCM Naruto to try and invalidate points 3 & 5, but again, that is highly unlikely (based on other feats and statements that I can provide if you would like).


I'm really not trying to be a dick when I say this, but there is just so much wrong here:

1) Why are we correlating Susano'o to Sandaime's Durability; and at what Stage of Susano'o? This needs to be explained.
2) We don't know if we've seen Mei's entire arsenal. In-fact there is almost a zero percent chance that we have. So again saying she's got nothing that can do damage to Sandaime is 100% baseless. 
3) You bring up the idea of why if she had something else didn't she do more against Susano'o, but I don't even get that from a feats perspective because she was melting Susano'o with her Acid. 
4) This entire thing seems to work under thee assumption that the only way to win is to out-raw-power your enemy. This is simply not true and is in-fact rendered even more completely ridiculous by the fact that Sandaime was not canonically defeated by some possessing more raw-power, but a clever strategy. Mei doesn't need necessarily need a Jutsu more powerful than what Hachibi or FRS dished out to defeat Sandaime. So that proves nothing.
5) Something is not more likely simply because Mei hasn't shown a counter. It would only be more likely if you could prove that we have reason to believe Mei has shown most of her arsenal, which you can't



> Lastly, you could question the credibility of the people making the statements (points 1, 2, and 5), but we have been literally no reason to believe that Mabui, Dodai, and Naruto don't know what they're talking about.


Agreed here, Sandaime has so far been portrayed stronger. 



> So as you can see, I've constructed an argument for Sandaime based on both feats & portrayal (statements). If I just used on-panel feats only and went "herp derp Rasenshuriken > Mei's arsenal," anyone could literally say that the Acid Mist functions differently than Rasenshuriken and my point is moot. I would then need to use the statements about Sandaime being resistant to all types of elements, including Katon, meaning he is heat resistant. Furthermore, using Mabui's statements, I can prove that even Sandaime's innards are durable, meaning breathing in the Acid Mist may not be a major problem for him.


Literally all your telling me is that Feats are pointless and at the end of the day it's the statements that are making your case



> On the other hand, if I just use the statements, all I can say is that Mei probably cannot beat Sandaime because she lacks Futon and Sandaime is a-okay against everything else. That doesn't cover all bases. Are we sure it isn't hyperbole, like how Kusanagi was stated to pierce anything when it can't?


Your only using 1 statement, not looking at Sandaime holistic portrayal. Besides that most of the time probably X-character is going to loose is as good as it gets.



> Can Mei outlast Raikage? Is there a specific weakness to his defense? These things were explained by looking at what the Raikage has done in battle, A.K.A. FEATS.


Dude I don't need feats for that shit. I can look at the statements made about Sandaime's endurance and know it's unlikely that Mei will outlast him. 



> All in all, you combine both to form the strongest argument. Neither functions well on its own, because usually they go hand in hand. Whether or not you agree with all of the points I made regarding Mei is irrelevant. That is where the debate comes in.


The problem is if all the feats based arguments can easily be shown to be something that doesn't even demonstrate a likelihood of anything, they don't help your argument much. Again unless were comparing specific well defined Jutsu/abilities.



> If Kishimoto tells us that one character is stronger than another, you are correct, we need nothing more (I agree that direct statements regarding two characters are the best way to define tiers). HOWEVER, if one character has a feat, such as beating up Jubidara, it's incredibly slim that a character like Jiraiya has an answer to that, because Jiraiya has no accomplishments or statements that suggest he is more competent than Jubidara in anyway.


Thing is I've made it very clear that I think using an argument such as this, is fine; I just put it into portrayal, while you define it as "feats". That doesn't change anything though, it's not like because you define this as "feats", suddenly other aspects you also define as "feats" [the ones i'm saying I don't care for] become solid arguments by simply being placed under the same title.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Rocky here's my problem with this BS.
> 
> 1)You keep touting the definition of the word "feats", like your proving me wrong about something, but* I never once said I was adhering to the dictionary definition in my usage of the word "feats"or argued that the dictionary definitions is the same as my own. *So once again what is the point of this BS?
> 
> ...



1.) So you admit you're making shit up. Well then..

2.) You're trying to say that the definition of the word feat is somehow different here. Protip: It isn't.

3.) Are you a native speaker of English? That doesn't even make sense. Please reword. I think you're trying to insult me, but I literally didn't get what you were trying to say. I'll try: Nothing I said was hypocritical. People in the BD use both words as they are defined in the dictionary. If they don't, they are wrong & making things up, and thus I will pay them no mind.



> I'm really not trying to be a dick when I say this, but there is just so much wrong here:



There actually isn't. Tbh, you're the one who's incorrect, no offense.



> 1) Why are we correlating Susano'o to Sandaime's Durability; and at what Stage of Susano'o? This needs to be explained.
> 2) We don't know if we've seen Mei's entire arsenal. In-fact there is almost a zero percent chance that we have. So again saying she's got nothing that can do damage to Sandaime is 100% baseless.
> 3) You bring up the idea of why if she had something else didn't she do more against Susano'o, but I don't even get that from a feats perspective because she was melting Susano'o with her Acid.
> 4) This entire thing seems to work under thee assumption that the only way to win is to out-raw-power your enemy. This is simply not true and is in-fact rendered even more completely ridiculous by the fact that Sandaime was not canonically defeated by some possessing more raw-power, but a clever strategy. Mei doesn't need necessarily need a Jutsu more powerful than what Hachibi or FRS dished out to defeat Sandaime. So that proves nothing.
> 5) Something is not more likely simply because Mei hasn't shown a counter. It would only be more likely if you could prove that we have reason to believe Mei has shown most of her arsenal, which you can't



1.) Madara's Ribcage Susano'o. I correlate them based on their comparable hype & displays.
2.) I'm starting to feel that you are actually blind. I typed out why I believed Mei cannot damage Sandaime in detail. Dodai thought that only powerful Futon could work, and Sandaime tanked a more powerful Futon than anything Mei can use.
3.) She never got through Madara's Ribcage by herself.
4.) Anyone can think of a strategy. Sandaime can also think of a clever tactic to beat Mei. This argument goes in circles.
5.) That's terribly wrong. I supported why it is _more likely_ that Mei lacks a Jutsu to deal with Sandaime. You believe it's more likely that she has one?



> Literally all your telling me is that Feats are pointless and at the end of the day it's the statements that are making your case



Sure, if you lack any reading comprehension whatsoever. Feats on their own aren't pointless, but they don't make for a very strong argument. Neither do statements on their own, unless you're taking about a statement that directly signifies which character would beat another. Kaguya being stronger than Rikudo is fine to claim without displayed Jutsu for either, because who is stronger has already been explained in the Manga canon. There is nothing to argue.



> Your only using 1 statement, not looking at Sandaime holistic portrayal.



All of Sandaime's statements could technically be hyperbolic. That's why you support them with feats, to prove that they aren't. It just makes the argument stronger.



> Dude I don't need feats for that shit. I can look at the statements made about Sandaime's endurance and know it's unlikely that Mei will outlast him.



Statements regarding the Raikage tell you nothing about Mei. In order to find out what Mei's stamina is, you do indeed need feats. 



> The problem is if all the feats based arguments can easily be shown to be something that doesn't even demonstrate a likelihood of anything, they don't help your argument much. Again unless were comparing specific well defined Jutsu/abilities.



Most of the time, it is comparing how a specific Jutsu or attack would interact with a specific defense. The thing is, that tends to happen alot when two characters fight each other...



> Thing is I've made it very clear that I think using an argument such as this, is fine; I just put it into portrayal, while you define it as "feats". That doesn't change anything though, it's not like because you define this as "feats", suddenly other aspects of you also define as "feats" become solid arguments by simply being placed under the same title.



They aren't solid arguments by themselves, but they never were. "Feats" as you (wrongfully) claim them to be defined in the BD are important when considering match up, like I've been telling you. It isn't always clear who Kishimoto views as superior (because we aren't him). If it is clear, the stronger character wins by "feats" 95% of the time anyway.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2014)

@Rocky

Since we seem to have a different "definition" of the word "feats", I'm going to try to simplify this to a singular issue. The specific NBD logic that I do not find sound is this:

Character-Z has a Jutsu that Character-Y, hasn't shown a counter for, so he looses or is inferior to Character-Z. 

My issue with that is once again, I do not think,  we've seen most characters entire arsenals. On-top of that the author can make certain Jutsu/Abilities interact in unexpected ways. 

From what I gather, you believe this type of logic is only partial support and that you should also supplement it with other styles of argumentation, which already puts you ahead of many in the NBD. However ultimately I don't see this as support of anything, even when used in conjunction with other arguments. Why? Because once again we don't know a character's entire arsenal. So how can one consider something likely, when there is potentially so much stuff missing.

To go back to the Hebi-Sasuke example. Hebi-Sasuke didn't show Oral-Rebirth until a few chapters into his fight with Itachi. Oral-Rebirth opened many options up for how Hebi-Sasuke could counter various Jutsu. But if we evaluate Hebi-Sasuke before he'd shown Oral-Rebirth we'd be missing out extensively on one of his major counters. So to say it's likely that Hebi-Sasuke looses because he hasn't shown a counter, would have made no sense, because in reality he had Oral-Rebirth, we just didn't see it yet.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2014)

I believe we can agree on one thing: The goal in the Battledome is to determine who is most likely to win in the author's mind. 

It's just that Kishi, much like us here, could believe "hey, it could go either way."  Furthermore, in the BD, we make our own stipulations. Those alone could change who may win, even in Kishi mind. If he was forced to write a fight based on our conditions here, the victor may differ from who it would normally be in the Manga, under his own. If he doesn't believe the two a characters in question are very far apart, why would he have a problem with changing his view if the conditions favor a particular character? 

Lastly, if Character X beats more opponents in general than Character Y (meaning X is "stronger"), but Character Y has an fighting style that is extremely effective against Character X, why do you insist that Kishimoto will try and write around it? Again, as long as he doesn't believe that the characters are too far apart in strength, he may just have Character Y win that specific fight. I mean, Hanzo didn't just pull out a random seal-less Justu when Mifune cock blocked all of his other ones. 

I agree that feats don't prove much if it is _clear_ that Kishimoto would have one character beat another no matter the conditions, such as Minato vs Hinata or Jubito vs Jiraiya. However, most of the time, we really cannot tell what Kishi may think of a match up between two similar tiered characters with stipulations he did not create. This is where we look at their Justu.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I believe we can agree on one thing: The goal in the Battledome is to determine who is most likely to win in the author's mind.
> 
> It's just that Kishi, much like us here, could believe "hey, it could go either way."  Furthermore, in the BD, we make our own stipulations. Those alone could change who may win, even in Kishi mind. If he was forced to write a fight based on our conditions here, the victor may differ from who it would normally be in the Manga, under his own. If he doesn't believe the two a characters in question are very far apart, why would he have a problem with changing his view if the conditions favor a particular character?


Agreed



> Lastly, if Character X beats more opponents in general than Character Y (meaning X is "stronger"), but Character Y has an fighting style that is extremely effective against Character X, why do you insist that Kishimoto will try and write around it? Again, as long as he doesn't believe that the characters are too far apart in strength, he may just have Character Y win that specific fight. I mean, Hanzo didn't just pull out a random seal-less Justu when Mifune cock blocked all of his other ones.


Go back and re-read the discussion. I specifically said match up might play a role if the characters aren't too far apart. My only qualm with it, is it's difficult to determine match up unless the author makes a point of it in the manga as we don't know a character's full arsenal.



> I agree that feats don't prove much if it is clear that Kishimoto would have one character beat another no matter the conditions, such as Minato vs Hinata or Jubito vs Jiraiya. However, most of the time, we really cannot tell what Kishi may think of a match up between two similar tiered characters with stipulations he did not create.


Depends on the characters in question.



> This is where we look at their Justu.


And that's when shit starts to get silly, because as I showed with the Hebi-Sasuke example, the dude had a-lot of panel time before Itachi fight, but still showed a great deal of shit in the Itachi fight. So how are you going to sit here and argue X-Character looses to Y-Character, because they haven't shown a counter to Y-Character's Jutsu, when most characters don't even have the panel time of characters who still constantly pull out new shit.

This is something it seems like you refuse to directly address and I'd really like an answer or you can just admit that we can't.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So how are you going to sit here and argue X-Character looses to Y-Character, because they haven't shown a counter to Y-Character's Jutsu, when most characters don't even have the panel time of characters who still constantly pull out new shit.



All you're doing is rephrasing "absence of evidence [X hasn't shown a counter to Y's Jutsu] does not equal evidence of absence [So that means that X looses]." I'm aware that that is flawed logic. The thing is, we aren't trying to prove anything, we're just trying to figure out what is most likely. That is the job of the posters that are debating... 

For example, if there is a character tiered around Tsunade's level that has flight, I can claim he has the match-up advantage, because Tsunade hasn't really displayed a Jutsu that can (reliably) hit a flying opponent. You can say that there is no _proof_ that she _doesn't_ have one, because we haven't seen her full move-set....and I will agree. Just know that I'm going follow that up with "why is it _more likely_ that Tsunade has a technique catered towards hitting airborne opponents?" 

That's what we do here, determine things based on probability. That's the only option when a human author is God and can literally shit all over our "proof." If Kishimoto so desired, he could grant Tsunade a Jutsu in the next chapter that allowed her to surpass Ei's flicker in speed. That is _possible_, *but it isn't likely in the slightest* based on what we know about Ei & what we know about Tsunade. The probability is so miniscule that we essentially refer to it as fact.



> This is something it seems like you refuse to directly address and I'd really like an answer or you can just admit that we can't.



We cannot predict the future man. If somebody wanted to make an argument for Hebi Sasuke (before the Itachi fight) countering Amaterasu, and decided to say it was likely that Sauce had Oral Rebirth _because_ he absorbed Orochimaru and had some of his abilities (rather than Sauce pulling some random shit out of nowhere), then I would grant that poster the possibility. The argument would continue from there...

_______

Turrin, I feel you just put too much on the "anything is possible" concept. We teach our children that the sun is certain (probability = 100%) to rise every mourning. That isn't really 100% true though, because some extragalactic alien mercenary could teleport into our solar system and blow it up. The chance of that happening is so low though that it isn't even worth bringing up.


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## Fiiction (Apr 6, 2014)

Lol it's just Rocky and turrin back and forth.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2014)

I can say I've learned quite a bit in this debate, which is good. Always learning is good.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> All you're doing is rephrasing "absence of evidence [X hasn't shown a counter to Y's Jutsu] does not equal evidence of absence [So that means that X looses]." I'm aware that that is flawed logic. The thing is, we aren't trying to prove anything, we're just trying to figure out what is most likely. That is the job of the posters that are debating...


Here's the issue at what point does it become "likely" that a character doesn't have more in their arsenal? 



> For example, if there is a character tiered around Tsunade's level that has flight, I can claim he has the match-up advantage, because Tsunade hasn't really displayed a Jutsu that can (reliably) hit a flying opponent. You can say that there is no proof that she doesn't have one, because we haven't seen her full move-set....and I will agree. Just know that I'm going follow that up with "why is it more likely that Tsunade has a technique catered towards hitting airborne opponents?"


And than I will follow up with why it's more likely that she doesn't. To which you we'll say she hasn't shown one. To which I will say Tsunade has had little panels time comparatively to characters who keep showing new abilities/Jtusu and she never went up against a flying opponent so never had a reason to display a Jutsu tailored to that. To which at best you could, say still we don't know. To which I will say, yeah that's my point we don't know, and therefore concluding shit on things they've shown is pointless. 



> That's what we do here, determine things based on probability. That's the only option when a human author is God and can literally shit all over our "proof." If Kishimoto so desired, he could grant Tsunade a Jutsu in the next chapter that allowed her to surpass Ei's flicker in speed. That is possible, but it isn't likely in the slightest based on what we know about Ei & what we know about Tsunade. The probability is so miniscule that we essentially refer to it as fact.


No one is talking about these outlandish possibilities. Look at your example, it's hardly outlandish that Tsunad would have a long range Jutsu [actually what's funny is she does; Katsuya Acid]; it is outlandish that Tsunade would have a Jutsu that is faster than Ei. It's possible, but unlikely. That's the difference.



> We cannot predict the future man. If somebody wanted to make an argument for Hebi Sasuke (before the Itachi fight) countering Amaterasu, and decided to say it was likely that Sauce had Oral Rebirth because he absorbed Orochimaru and had some of his abilities (rather than Sauce pulling some random shit out of nowhere), then I would grant that poster the possibility. The argument would continue from there...


Actually such an argument would be shot down. Why? Because the manga never indicated Hebi- Sasuke got all of Orochimaru's abilities and indeed that has never been suggested to be the case. Plus I can give you other examples besides Heb-Sasuke anyway.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Here's the issue at what point does it become "likely" that a character doesn't have more in their arsenal?



That isn't the point. You've already made a strong case that the vast majority of characters we've seen have unrevealed Jutsu. What we want to figure out is the likelihood of their possible Jutsu being helpful against whatever opponent they're facing.



> And than I will follow up with why it's more likely that she doesn't. *To which you we'll say she hasn't shown one. *To which I will say Tsunade has had little panels time comparatively to characters who keep showing new abilities/Jtusu and she never went up against a flying opponent so never had a reason to display a Jutsu tailored to that.



That isn't what I would say, though. 

Tsunade is a medic and Taijutsu master that has a fighting style revolving heavily around her inhumane strength and forbidden regeneration Jutsu, Byakugo. That style's strengths are not in ranged techniques. 

Let's say her opponent was Deidara, and I'm arguing for him. I could say that Deidara was able to avoid Gaara's guided sand claws well. Why would Tsunade have ranged Jutsu on Gaara's level, when the Kazekage is specialized in ranged combat?

I _never said_ that Tsunade didn't have any techniques to hit flying opponents. I said she most likely didn't have any *reliable* techniques to hit flying opponents around her level. I do not consider Katsuyu's acid "reliable". Katsuyu could shoot acid all she wants, but if the flying ninja is Kage-level (Tsunade's tier), then he'll most likely possess the evasion skills to dodge that.



> No one is talking about these outlandish possibilities. Look at your example, it's hardly outlandish that Tsunad would have a long range Jutsu [actually what's funny is she does; Katsuya Acid]; it is outlandish that Tsunade would have a Jutsu that is faster than Ei. It's possible, but unlikely. That's the difference.



I was using the "outlandish" example just so you would clearly understand my point. 

And again, nobody made the claim that Tsunade lacked a ranged Jutsu completely. It's just unlikely that a Taijutsu specialist that has never been suggested to have some advanced, high-tier ranged technique can snipe down Kage level flier...  



> Actually such an argument would be shot down. Why? Because the manga never indicated Hebi- Sasuke got all of Orochimaru's abilities and that has never been suggested to be the case.



All? No, but some? Yes, and Oral Rebirth is one of Orochimaru's moves. The specific Jutsu that Sasuke inherited from Orochimaru were not explained, thus presenting a chance that Sasuke would indeed have the technique. "There would be no evidence either way."


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That isn't the point. You've already made a strong case that the vast majority of characters we've seen have unrevealed Jutsu. What we want to figure out is the likelihood of their possible Jutsu being helpful against whatever opponent they're facing.


But the thing is in most cases we don't know.



> Tsunade is a medic and Taijutsu master that has a fighting style revolving heavily around her inhumane strength and forbidden regeneration Jutsu, Byakugo. That style's strengths are not in ranged techniques.
> 
> Let's say her opponent was Deidara, and I'm arguing for him. I could say that Deidara was able to avoid Gaara's guided sand claws well. Why would Tsunade have ranged Jutsu on Gaara's level, when the Kazekage is specialized in ranged combat?
> 
> I never said that Tsunade didn't have any techniques to hit flying opponents. I said she most likely didn't have any reliable techniques to hit flying opponents around her level. I do not consider Katsuyu's acid "reliable". Katsuyu could shoot acid all she wants, but if the flying ninja is Kage-level (Tsunade's tier), then he'll most likely possess the evasion skills to dodge that.


The problem with this is when has Tsunade gone up against a flying enemy. 




> I was using the "outlandish" example just so you would clearly understand my point.
> 
> And again, nobody made the claim that Tsunade lacked a ranged Jutsu completely. It's just unlikely that a Taijutsu specialist that has never been suggested to have some advanced, high-tier ranged technique can snipe down Kage level flier..


Where in the manga does it stated Tsunade is just a Taijutsu specialist. She has skill in that area, but has never gone up against a flier, so how do we make the correlation your asserting? Itachi seemed as if he was mostly close to mid range combat until he actually needed a long-range Jutsu and displayed one



> All? No, but some? Yes, and Oral Rebirth is one of Orochimaru's moves. The specific Jutsu that Sasuke inherited from Orochimaru were not explained, thus presenting a chance that Sasuke would indeed have the technique. "There would be no evidence either way."


There is no evidence ether way in most cases; that's the problem.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> But the thing is in most cases we don't know.



We never know for sure. The key word in that paragraph was "likelihood".



> The problem with this is when has Tsunade gone up against a flying enemy.



We don't need to see her combat a flying enemy. 

Is she had, then it would be extremely obvious whether or not she had a technique that could reliably hit one. She hasn't though, so we have to use other factors to determine the chance.



> Where in the manga does it stated Tsunade is just a Taijutsu specialist. She has skill in that area, but has never gone up against a flier, so how do we make the correlation your asserting? Itachi seemed as if he was mostly close to mid range combat until he actually needed a long-range Jutsu and displayed one



It isn't stated anywhere, but it's clear where her specialties lie, and that is in her physical strength & regeneration. What, you disagree with that? You think she has ranged attacks on par with Gaara? 

Not sure why you brought up Itachi, as he has a completely different skill set than Tsunade. Besides, Itachi doesn't have a ranged attack capable of consistently hitting a Kage level flier either, unless you think he could just snipe Onoki, Mu, or Deidara down with Mangatama. Personally, I think they would just avoid Magatama. 



> There is no evidence ether way in most cases; that's the problem.



There is no "evidence" for many of the things we discuss. That doesn't mean it's a problem.

I've actually used arguments like this in the past. I was discussing the match-up of Tsunade & Minato with GT, and we both thought that Minato was portrayed the stronger Shinobi. However, he didn't think Minato could just lop her head off based on the portrayal of Byakugo, and thus Tsunade may win the fight because Minato's offense capped at a Kunai. I agreed, and said that knowing Minato's Fuinjutsu proficiency, he may have a sealing Jutsu capable of sealing Tsunade (or her Chakra, thus stopping Byakugo). He said that _that_ was much more likely and something he could get behind...he didn't shoot my argument down like you claimed would happen.


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> We never know for sure. The key word in that paragraph was "likelihood".


There is no reason to keep repeating this to me. I know what you point is. The problem is you can't argue likelihood based on "feats" unless you can prove X-Character is unlikely to have more Jutsu/abilities than what he/she has shown.



> We don't need to see her combat a flying enemy.
> 
> Is she had, then it would be extremely obvious whether or not she had a technique that could reliably hit one. She hasn't though, so we have to use other factors to determine the chance.


Actually we do need to see that, because in the manga ninja only pull out what is suitable to the situation. Tsunade has never been in a scenario where she needs to utilize a range technique, so we can't say it's likely she doesn't have one.



> It isn't stated anywhere, but it's clear where her specialties lie, and that is in her physical strength & regeneration.


Tsunade would not be defined as a Taijutsu specialist, she'd be defined as a Medical Ninja, who is also good at Taijutsu. Just like she could also be good at other areas outside her speciality as a medic, such as ranged combat. However, even if Tsunade was a Taijutsu specialist, we've seen Taijutsu specialist with ranged attacks like the Hyuuga, Gai, etc... So that doesn't help support your point ether way you slice it. Furthermore as a medical specialist, first and foremost, we do not know if there are techniques that medics developed for ranged combat, though it would make sense if there were as the medic would want to stay outside of the frey as much as possible. Than after being a medical specialist, she is identified as a physical hulk like beast, which doesn't mean she lacks ranged-combat, in-fact it is a common troupe for physical hulks to throw massive objects for exceedingly effective ranged combat. Finally Tsunade is defined a s a summoner, which means she has access to the abilities of her summon; Katsuya who has already been shown to fight with ranged Jutsu, now you can say that specific Acid spit Jutsu wasn't good enough [though it's highlighted as being extremely difficult to evade in the DB], but that doesn't mean Katsuya doesn't have more.



> What, you disagree with that? You think she has ranged attacks on par with Gaara?


1) I don't think she needs the raw power of Gaara's ranged game, to have a good range game herself. Again it's not all about raw-power.

2) She very well could have ranged game up their with Gaara, we just don't know.



> Not sure why you brought up Itachi, as he has a completely different skill set than Tsunade. Besides, Itachi doesn't have a ranged attack capable of consistently hitting a Kage level flier either, unless you think he could just snipe Onoki, Mu, or Deidara down with Mangatama. Personally, I think they would just avoid Magatama.


If all Itachi does is throw Magatama straight at them, than no it's not doing anything. However again brute force is not the only method to hitting someone. And i also wasn't just thinking Magatama I was thinking his crow summons.



> I've actually used arguments like this in the past. I was discussing the match-up of Tsunade & Minato with GT, and we both thought that Minato was portrayed the stronger Shinobi. However, he didn't think Minato could just lop her head off based on the portrayal of Byakugo, and thus Tsunade may win the fight because Minato's offense capped at a Kunai. I agreed, and said that knowing Minato's Fuinjutsu proficiency, he may have a sealing Jutsu capable of sealing Tsunade (or her Chakra, thus stopping Byakugo). He said that that was much more likely and something he could get behind...he didn't shoot my argument down like you claimed would happen


When did I claim this GT person would shoot your argument down. But anyway, if you willing to discuss each character match up that way than your doing better than most. However it still a flawed system, because most of the time we don't have enough info to argue what specific Jutsu type a character is likely to have more of. 

The fact that we can say Minato is likely to have more Fuuinjutsu is great. But in many cases all we can say is, it's likely a character has more Jutsu, but not what type of Jutsu. For example would anyone have granted Hiruzen the ability to use all 5 elements before he showed it?


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> There is no reason to keep repeating this to me. I know what you point is. The problem is you can't argue likelihood based on "feats" unless you can prove X-Character is unlikely to have more Jutsu/abilities than what he/she has shown.



Well, you don't argue likelihood based on only feats...



> Actually we do need to see that, because in the manga ninja only pull out what is suitable to the situation. Tsunade has never been in a scenario where she needs to utilize a range technique, so we can't say it's likely she doesn't have one.



You repeatedly miss the point. Nobody cares if she has a ranged technique. The question is: Why would that technique be capable of hitting Kage level fliers that have avoided ranged techniques from others?



> 1) I don't think she needs the raw power of Gaara's ranged game, to have a good range game herself. Again it's not all about raw-power.
> 
> 2) She very well could have ranged game up their with Gaara, we just don't know.



Gaara's range game involves finesse as well, and why is it likely that Tsunade has anything on par with Gaara ranged wise? Do you have support for this?



> *However it still a flawed system*, because most of the time we don't have enough info to argue what specific Jutsu type a character is likely to have more of.



Brah, every system is flawed in ways.



> For example would anyone have granted Hiruzen the ability to use all 5 elements before he showed it?



That was funny though, because I thought one needed the Rinnegan to do that. That may have been a Retcon.



I want to ask you something. Remember that example of the alien blowing up out sun tomorrow? Why do you, personally, think that that isn't likely to happen?


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Well, you don't argue likelihood based on only feats...


Than once again we come around to the fact, that it wouldn't be the "feats" making your argument credible, but the others stuff.



> You repeatedly miss the point. Nobody cares if she has a ranged technique. The question is: Why would that technique be capable of hitting Kage level fliers that have avoided ranged techniques from others?


What flyer are we talking about? I don't really see any fliers that have some super avoid-ability.



> Gaara's range game involves finesse as well,


Gaara's range game involves a-lot of factors, but it is one style of fighting at a range, their are many other ranged Jutsu with different effects or strategical applications. Again it doesn't have to be better than Gaara's to hit the enemy.



> and why is it likely that Tsunade has anything on par with Gaara ranged wise? Do you have support for this?


I didn't say it was likely. I said it wasn't unlikely, and I cited the reasons.



> Brah, every system is flawed in ways.


Okay, but we should still strive for the best system and that is not "feats".



> That was funny though, because I thought one needed the Rinnegan to do that. That may have been a Retcon.


Nope you need Rinnegan to have all 5 elemental affinities, not use all 5 nature recompositions.



> want to ask you something. Remember that example of the alien blowing up out sun tomorrow? Why do you, personally, think that that isn't likely to happen?


Because I don't think any species could get that technologically advanced without destroying itself first.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Than once again we come around to the fact, that it wouldn't be the "feats" making your argument credible, but the others stuff.
> 
> 
> What flyer are we talking about? I don't really see any fliers that have some super avoid-ability.
> ...



You can't argue anything in BD without using feats. So yes, the best system we have right now is making arguments and judgements based on feats.
Actually, that isn't the best way. That is the only way.


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You can't argue anything in BD without using feats. So yes, the best system we have right now is making arguments and judgements based on feats.
> Actually, that isn't the best way. That is the only way.


I'm still waiting on you to produce that NBD rule Grim.


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## Fiiction (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm still waiting on you to produce that NBD rule Grim.



Common sense tells you to base things off of feats, and not just hype and portrayal,,, that's all.

Who do you think will win in a fight? Hashirama or Hiruzen based of feats.

Another one, who do you think will win in a fight? Hashirama or Hiruzen based of hype and portrayal.

You know the answers to both of those questions.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Than once again we come around to the fact, that it wouldn't be the "feats" making your argument credible, but the others stuff.



I though we concluded that a while back....

"Feats" (as you define themalone can't construct a sound argument because it's the absence of evidence doesn't equal...." etc etc you get the point.



> What flyer are we talking about? I don't really see any fliers that have some super avoid-ability.


 
Any of the Kage level ones. they have shown to be pretty nimble in the air.



> Gaara's range game involves a-lot of factors, but it is one style of fighting at a range, their are many other ranged Jutsu with different effects or strategical applications. Again it doesn't have to be better than Gaara's to hit the enemy.



1.) Like what.

2.) What "kind" of ranged Jutsu is Tsunade likely to have?



> I didn't say it was likely. I said it wasn't unlikely, and I cited the reasons.



If it isn't likely, it isn't worth bringing up. You're basically just saying it's possible, but theoretically, anything is possible..



> Nope you need Rinnegan to have all 5 elemental affinities, not use all 5 nature recompositions.



What's the difference.



> Because I don't think any species could get that technologically advanced without destroying itself first.



It sounds like you're being hypocritical though. You think it isn't likely because no hypothetical alien civilization would have advanced enough technology, yet you don't know _anything_ about other civilizations.


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I though we concluded that a while back....
> 
> "Feats" (as you define themalone can't construct a sound argument because it's the absence of evidence doesn't equal...." etc etc you get the point.


Yes we've covered this. My issue still remains that it isn't that they can't construct a sound argument "alone", but can't construct a sound argument at all, in most cases at least.



> Any of the Kage level ones. they have shown to be pretty nimble in the air.


Everyone defines Kage-level differently so I don't know what that means, exactly. Can you give me specific names.



> Like what.


Ibusei's poison cloud is one example of a ranged attack that has a different mechanic than Gaara's. I wouldn't necessarily call Ibusei's ranged game better than Gaara's, but I could see someone falling for Ibusei's attack, that doesn't for Gaara's. 



> What "kind" of ranged Jutsu is Tsunade likely to have?


- Something using her strength; like hulk throwing or punching giant pieces of topography at the enemy
- Something using her Summon; like throwing Katsuya at someone and than Katsuya splitting into thousands of mini-katsuya, and when any attach to the target Tsunade reverse Shosen Ko's them. Throwing Katsuya, and Katsuya turning into it's spread out liquidish form falling on the enemy; crushing, binding, or reverse shosening them. Summoning out multiple Katsuya to all focus fire the enemy with Acid spit. Katsuya having other ranged jutsu besides Acid spit. Katsuya melding itself into the shape of a weapon and than Tsunade swing it around, while riding on another Katsuya.
- Something to do with her medical ninjutsu; spitting out poisoned mist, throwing poisoned weapons, etc... A release of chakra from the body's path-ways similar to the Hyuuga clan's Hakke Kyosho, based on Tsunade's medical knowledge
- Elemental Jutsu, it's standard for Jonin to have mastered 2.
- Genjutsu, she has a 3.5 in Gen
- Any number of her fellow teammates range Jutsu she may have learned, after spending years with them
- Etc... really I could go



> If it isn't likely, it isn't worth bringing up. You're basically just saying it's possible, but theoretically, anything is possible..


No Tsunade having mastered a Chakra Orb that she can fire from her hand with a strength of a Bijuudama would be something that falls under the blanket of theoretically anything is possible, but it's unlikely. Something that is not unlikely, but not likely is something that has a neutral likelihood and therefore can't simply be dismissed.



> What's the difference.


Having a certain affinity means that element comes easier to someone. Anyone can learn all 5 elements, it's just insanely difficult to learn elements you don't have an affinity for, let alone learning 4.



> It sounds like you're being hypocritical though. You think it isn't likely because no hypothetical alien civilization would have advanced enough technology, yet you don't know anything about other civilizations.


The difference is their isn't a writer constructing everything in our universe to his whims. Unlike in the manga where we can look at something like how the author is portraying a certain character; we have no ability to look at how an author is portraying alien societies in our universe. So basically we all we have is posing shitty ideas like these. 

Basically It would be hypocritical if I stated, that my idea for why aliens won't blow up the son tomorrow is solid logic to base an argument; but i'm straight up admitting it's just random musing on my part.


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Apr 7, 2014)

> Actually we do need to see that, because in the manga ninja only pull out what is suitable to the situation. Tsunade has never been in a scenario where she needs to utilize a range technique, so we can't say it's likely she doesn't have one.



Yes, we can say she has zero ranged techniques, or at least no techniques of note.  Now can her strength related techniques take on a ranged aspect through good application?  Yes, she can throw a giant pillar, or throw Katsuya.  However...



> - Something using her strength; like hulk throwing or punching giant pieces of topography at the enemy
> - Something using her Summon; like throwing Katsuya at someone and than Katsuya splitting into thousands of mini-katsuya, and when any attach to the target Tsunade reverse Shosen Ko's them. Throwing Katsuya, and Katsuya turning into it's spread out liquidish form falling on the enemy; crushing, binding, or reverse shosening them. Summoning out multiple Katsuya to all focus fire the enemy with Acid spit. Katsuya having other ranged jutsu besides Acid spit. Katsuya melding itself into the shape of a weapon and than Tsunade swing it around, while riding on another Katsuya.
> - Something to do with her medical ninjutsu; spitting out poisoned mist, throwing poisoned weapons, etc... A release of chakra from the body's path-ways similar to the Hyuuga clan's Hakke Kyosho, based on Tsunade's medical knowledge
> - Elemental Jutsu, it's standard for Jonin to have mastered 2.
> ...



But seriously extrapolating to that extent is something you'll only see in fanfics.  The majority of those techs also go against the way Tsunade is potrayed.  In all of her fights she's a berserker with healing techniques.  She isn't some zany character riding Katsuyas.

And just because she has "mastered" an elemental jutsu deosn't mean it's ranged, or even worthwhile to use.  I mean that's like saying Vegeta knows the Tri-beam just because he's more skilled then Tien and knows energy attacks.  Stop with the fanfics.

Anyway, Orochimaru stomps due to his paralyzing blood and just being more versatile then A.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

Before we continue Turrin, if you wanted to make a pro-Tsunade against someone like Deidara, and then against someone like Onoki, how would you personally do so?


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Before we continue Turrin, if you wanted to make a pro-Tsunade against someone like Deidara, and then against someone like Onoki, how would you personally do so?


To me Tsunade being superior to Deidara is as simple as the fact that she was fighting  Madara and portrayed as the most important member of that team or equally important as Onoki. Meanwhile Deidara, even enhanced, got fodderized by the Ambush-Squad. Given the massive divide in portrayal there is no way in hell I see Kishi having Tsunade loose to Deidara. Beyond that there is a 3 point divide in their stat total, if you look at when other people with 3 point differences in their stat total fight it's usually a stomp; see CE Temari vs CE Tenten to name one example. She might struggle a bit more, than someone of her level typically would because she is support specialist, but that's in the worse case scenario; I could easily see Kishi having Tsunade stomp Deidara.

When it comes to Onoki I wouldn't argue Tsunade against him, because while I think they are the same general level, Tsunade is a support specialist so I don't see her being able to best Onoki in combat. Even if we look at the Madara battle Onoki was in the drive seat due to his combat prowess, while Tsunade was in the driver seat thanks to her support prowess.  I mean it's not totally impossible she could pull out a win, but I just wouldn't argue the point, as I don't see much wrong with it.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> To me Tsunade being superior to Deidara is as simple as the fact that she was fighting Madara and portrayed as the most important member of that team or equally important as Onoki. Meanwhile Deidara, even enhanced, got fodderized by the Ambush-Squad. Given the massive divide in portrayal there is no way in hell I see Kishi having Tsunade loose to Deidara.



First off, Tsunade was fodderized (in the end) by Madara herself along with her Kage level piers. They did okay against his "casual mode," but it was a complete team effort to even survive. She technically lost before Byakugo even came into play, when Madara knocked her out with Flower World. She was portrayed as the most important to the team in the form of its medic, which you yourself said didn't translate directly into combat, so it isn't like she was portrayed to be directly better than any of the other Kage in combat itself.

Secondly, Deidara may have lost to the ambush squad, but you ignore what he's done in the past, such as invade an entire village & capture its Kage. He also beat Isobu, and Pain generally referred to him as one of the "special" one's in the Akatsuki. I personally don't think that Tsunade's portrayal has really been overly superior to that.



> Beyond that there is a 3 point divide in their stat total, if you look at when other people with 3 point differences in their stat total fight it's usually a stomp; see CE Temari vs CE Tenten to name one example. She might struggle a bit more, than someone of her level typically would because she is support specialist, but that's in the worse case scenario; I could easily see Kishi having Tsunade stomp Deidara.



Her stat total could be above Deidara's for the same reason that Shizune's is above Gaara's, but I don't care much about the stat totals regardless.


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> First off, Tsunade was fodderized by Madara herself along with her Kage level piers.


Forcing someone to use one of their best Jutsu after a long battle is not fodderizing.



> They did okay against his "casual mode," but it was a complete team effort to even survive. She technically lost before Byakugo even came into play, when Madara knocked her out with Flower World. She was portrayed as the most important to the team in the form of its medic, which you yourself said didn't translate directly into combat, so it isn't like she was portrayed to be directly better than any of the other Kage in combat itself.


I don't see why your arguing this when I said a support role. Though I will say she did have some good moments of combat as well.



> Secondly, Deidara may have lost to the ambush squad, but you ignore what he's done in the past,.


I'm just not pretending that the Ambush Squad battle didn't happen, like many people try to. I'll also consider the rest of the stuff, but don't really find it that impressive ether.



> such as invade an entire village & capture its Kage


And he had to resort to underhanded tactics and pure luck to win. Not that I don't respect the tenacity of that, but it's not a good reflection of strength. 



> He also beat Isobu,


I'm inclined to believe Obito did 90% of the work there.



> and Pain generally referred to him as one of the "special" one's in the Akatsuki.


Considering the DB talks about Kakuzu kill a bunch of fodder members who were his past partners, probably every Akatsuki we saw was "special" comparatively to the unseen members.



> I personally don't think that Tsunade's portrayal has really been overly superior to that.


I can't take this seriously at all. Her DB-Stats blow Deidara's out of the water. Her hype as a Sannin, Greatest Medic ever, etc.... blows Deidara's away. Her actual performances blow Deiara's away; even at her worst her when rust and shit, her performance against Kabuto and Orochimaru blows Deidara's performance against the ambush Squad away, and he was at his best there w/ Edo-perks.



> Her stat total could be above Deidara's for the same reason that Shizune's is above Gaara's,


Shizune's isn't that far above Gaara's, but like I said she might struggle a bit more due to being support oriented; however unlike Tsunade she has actually developed many ways to fight as a medic, so it's not as drastic as in Shizune's case. 



> but I don't care much about the stat totals regardless.


This makes It seems like you just don't care what the author has to say about how he actually ranks the characters then.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Forcing someone to use one of their best Jutsu after a long battle is not fodderizing.



Whatever. We both know that Madara is far superior to all five Kage, at once, if he tries. I'm also not sure how bringing up this fight helps your argument. Does simply fighting Madara as part of a team count for something special?



> Though I will say she did have some good moments of combat as well.



Indeed. They all did.



> I'm just not pretending that the Ambush Squad battle didn't happen, like many people try to. I'll also consider the rest of the stuff, but don't really find it that impressive ether.



Nobody ignores it. It's just a lower end showing, like Kinkaku dying to Darui.



> And he had to resort to underhanded tactics and pure luck to win. Not that I don't respect the tenacity of that, but it's not a good reflection of strength.



He won by sneaking his bombs into Gaara's sand when Gaara grabbed his arm. No luck or underhand tactic involved. Deidara's attack on the village was simply to get rid of Gaara's terrain advantage. 

And he didn't just beat Gaara btw. He literally flew off with Gaara as the entire Sand Village helplessly watched. 



> I'm inclined to believe Obito did 90% of the work there.



Goofy Tobi? Not a chance. 

Goofy Tobi was part of club fooderkatsuki, as Pain implied.



> Considering the DB talks about Kakuzu kill a bunch of fodder members who were his past partners, probably every Akatsuki we saw was "special" comparatively to the unseen members.



Good point.



> I can't take this seriously at all. Her DB-Stats blow Deidara's out of the water. Her hype as a Sannin, Greatest Medic ever, etc.... blows Deidara's away. Her actual performances blow Deiara's away; even at her worst her when rust and shit, her performance against Kabuto and Orochimaru blows Deidara's performance against the ambush Squad away, and he was at his best there w/ Edo-perks.



I can also say the same. I find it very hard to take you seriously when you claim Tsunade's performance against Preskip Kabuto "blows away" ANYTHING Deidara has done.

I also generally disagree that the things she's done massively trump overtly stealing a Kage from a village or beating a Biju.



> This makes It seems like you just don't care what the author has to say about how he actually ranks the characters then.



You know me well enough to know that isn't the case. I simply just don't think Kishimoto truly cares about the stat totals either. I mean, he _did_ drop them from later databooks. This could be similar to the timeline.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> To me Tsunade being superior to Deidara is as simple as the fact that she was fighting  Madara and portrayed as the most important member of that team or equally important as Onoki. Meanwhile Deidara, even enhanced, got fodderized by the Ambush-Squad. Given the massive divide in portrayal there is no way in hell I see Kishi having Tsunade loose to Deidara. Beyond that there is a 3 point divide in their stat total, if you look at when other people with 3 point differences in their stat total fight it's usually a stomp; see CE Temari vs CE Tenten to name one example. She might struggle a bit more, than someone of her level typically would because she is support specialist, but that's in the worse case scenario; I could easily see Kishi having Tsunade stomp Deidara.
> 
> When it comes to Onoki I wouldn't argue Tsunade against him, because while I think they are the same general level, Tsunade is a support specialist so I don't see her being able to best Onoki in combat. Even if we look at the Madara battle Onoki was in the drive seat due to his combat prowess, while Tsunade was in the driver seat thanks to her support prowess.  I mean it's not totally impossible she could pull out a win, but I just wouldn't argue the point, as I don't see much wrong with it.



Deidara walked into sand village unprepared and captured Gaara. He'd do the same to tsunade, only with less difficulty.
Deidara doesn't have any portrayal problems, he was portrayed to be stronger than Orochimaru.


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## Turrin (Apr 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Whatever. We both know that Madara is far superior to all five Kage, at once, if he tries. I'm also not sure how bringing up this fight helps your argument. Does simply fighting Madara as part of a team count for something special?


Putting up any kind of fight against Madara is something special. And I mean even if we just look at how Tsunade was fighting against 5 Susano'o wielding Madara clones it's extremely impressive.



> Indeed. They all did.


Sure, but Tsunade had some of the best and that just goes to show that she can also be a force in combat, rather than just support.



> Nobody ignores it. It's just a lower end showing, like Kinkaku dying to Darui.


Ginkaku dying Darui was due to Darui getting insane lucky and the bros lacking their final treasure. There was none of that in Deidara's case in-fact he was at his best with Edo-buffs. 



> He won by sneaking his bombs into Gaara's sand when Gaara grabbed his arm. No luck or underhand tactic involved. Deidara's attack on the village was simply to get rid of Gaara's terrain advantage.
> 
> And he didn't just beat Gaara btw. He literally flew off with Gaara as the entire Sand Village helplessly watched.


Blowing up the village eliminated all of Gaara's sand, but the gourd-sand. Even Part I Gaara, at that point in that match would have been able to grind up a shit ton more sand than his gourd sand. So it did more than just eliminate the topographic advantage.



> Goofy Tobi? Not a chance.
> 
> Goofy Tobi was part of club fooderkatsuki, as Pain implied.


Tobi was the one who was stated to defeat Sanbi with his Jutsu. 




> I can also say the same. I find it very hard to take you seriously when you claim Tsunade's performance against Preskip Kabuto "blows away" ANYTHING Deidara has done.


Straw-man. I challenge you to find where I said it blows away anything Deidara has done. I said her performance against Kabuto & Orochimaru blows away his against the Ambush-Squad.



> I also generally disagree that the things she's done massively trump overtly stealing a Kage from a village or beating a Biju.


Even if we say Deidara's underhanded trick simply eliminated the topographic advantage and we say Deidara defeating Gaara is completely a strength related accomplishment. We are talking about him defeating arguably one the weakest Kage we've seen from the thee weakest village. Tsunade hype as the Kage of one of the strongest hidden villages [Hokage] and hype as a legendary sannin, alone puts her well above Gaara, at that time.

As for having done something at that level of beyond. She protected the village from Nagato's CST, was one of the key players against Madara, fought 5 Susano'o wielding Madara Bushin, etc.... all of this is vastly superior to defeating Gaara, at that time. Heck she probably completed many missions that were just as difficult or more so. Look at her missions record: 418 A-Rank Missions &  95 S-Rank Missions. 

Keep in mind something like protect a helpless civilian while at the same time fighting against one of the best 7-Mist Swordsmen & his cohorts was still considered just A-Rank. What Deidara did with Gaara is beyond that, but beyond doing something like that 418 times, where the difficulty of some missions are probably even above that, probably not. Than we have to consider if that is just A-Rank, than S-Rank missions must entail a much greater difficulty and are probably on par if not surpassing what Deidara did with Gaara, and Tsunade did something like that 95 times. 



> You know me well enough to know that isn't the case. I simply just don't think Kishimoto truly cares about the stat totals either. I mean, he did drop them from later databooks. This could be similar to the timeline.


He didn't drop them from later DB, he dropped the Total-Ability bar, that's it, and that is most likely for other reasons that Weapon and others have covered. The fact that he still considers the totals is hard to dispute, as we'd have to believe it's pure coincidence that many of the stat totals still align and make sense ranking wise. On the flip side of this we have no reason to write the stat-totals off and believe Kishi doesn't still consider them.


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## The Undying (Apr 8, 2014)

Turrin said:
			
		

> He didn't drop them from later DB, he dropped the Total-Ability bar, that's it, and that is most likely for other reasons that Weapon and others have covered. The fact that he still considers the totals is hard to dispute, as we'd have to believe it's pure coincidence that many of the stat totals still align and make sense ranking wise. On the flip side of this we have no reason to write the stat-totals off and believe Kishi doesn't still consider them.




Exactly, but it's not just that.

At the end of the day, stat totals were stated to matter in official material. By default, it's more reasonable to regard them as holding true than to assume that Kishi now discounts them just because the parameter bar is no longer in the DBs; there is absolutely no official source that ever disputes or 'overrides' their importance. Potential and luck no longer have bars either, but they still exist in the series as fundamental concepts.


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## Rocky (Apr 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Putting up any kind of fight against Madara is something special. And I mean even if we just look at how Tsunade was fighting against 5 Susano'o wielding Madara clones it's extremely impressive.



She didn't even beat them though...

She just fought against...Mokuton clones. I mean, any Kage worth their salt should be able to put up a fight against Madara's clones. That's my personal opinion on it.



> Sure, but Tsunade had some of the best and that just goes to show that she can also be a force in combat, rather than just support.



She's obviously a force in combat. She's Hokage.



> Ginkaku dying Darui was due to Darui getting insane lucky and the bros lacking their final treasure. There was none of that in Deidara's case in-fact he was at his best with Edo-buffs.



The Gold & Silver Brothers nearly captured Darui in the first place because of luck & Edo buffs. Even then, one of them still died...



> Blowing up the village eliminated all of Gaara's sand, but the gourd-sand. Even Part I Gaara, at that point in that match would have been able to grind up a shit ton more sand than his gourd sand. So it did more than just eliminate the topographic advantage.



Gaara wouldn't have been able to grind up anywhere near the amount of sand he had in Suna. Also, you continue to ignore Deidara's other disadvantages.

1.) This was not a one on one, fight. Deidara had to _invade a village_ and capture its Kage.

2.) Deidara couldn't kill Gaara, and considering Deidara utilizes *explosives* in combat, that's kinda hard. 



> Tobi was the one who was stated to defeat Sanbi with his Jutsu.



Link?



> Straw-man. I challenge you to find where I said it blows away anything Deidara has done. I said her performance against Kabuto & Orochimaru blows away his against the Ambush-Squad.



You misunderstood. I'm surprised that you believe Tsunade's performance against Kabuto blows away "anything" (not everything) Deidara's done, even his low ends feats. I'm not sure how losing to an ambush squad is better than being defeated by Preskip Kabuto.



> We are talking about him defeating arguably one the weakest Kage we've seen from the thee weakest village. Tsunade hype as the Kage of one of the strongest hidden villages [Hokage] and hype as a legendary sannin, alone puts her well above Gaara, at that time.



He was still a Kage & Jinchuriki. The individual Sannin hype alone does not put any of the Sannin "well above" any of the five great leaders. Certainly not to the point where we just ignore match up.



> As for having done something at that level of beyond. She protected the village from Nagato's CST, was one of the key players against Madara, fought 5 Susano'o wielding Madara Bushin, etc.... all of this is vastly superior to defeating Gaara, at that time. Heck she probably completed many missions that were just as difficult or more so. Look at her missions record: 418 A-Rank Missions &  95 S-Rank Missions.



Protecting the civilians (the village itself got nuked) speaks high of her medical abilities, which I not once doubted. Speaking of Pain, he basically invaded and shat on a Konoha under Tsunade, with no lost bodies until Naruto arrived. She didn't even get any panel time to fight...



> He didn't drop them from later DB, he dropped the Total-Ability bar, that's it, and that is most likely for other reasons that Weapon and others have covered. The fact that he still considers the totals is hard to dispute, as we'd have to believe it's pure coincidence that many of the stat totals still align and make sense ranking wise. On the flip side of this we have no reason to write the stat-totals off and believe Kishi doesn't still consider them.



In my opinion, stat totals don't reflect who would win a fight, because not all stats are equally important and it ignores character interaction completely. 

And sometimes they're just weird power ranking wise, with Hidan & Zabuza being > Part 2 Gaara.


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## Turrin (Apr 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> She didn't even beat them though...


She was beating a down a few of them and that was already after doing a bunch of other shit in that battle.



> She just fought against...Mokuton clones.


Mokuton clones able to use Stage 3 EMS-Susano'o



> I mean, any Kage worth their salt should be able to put up a fight against Madara's clones. That's my personal opinion on it.


This is a grave underestimation of those Clones. 5 Susano'os is not something easy to deal with. What's more we literally saw them defeat Mei, who is a Kage. 



> She's obviously a force in combat. She's Hokage.


Okay, than why are you arguing the point?



> The Gold & Silver Brothers nearly captured Darui in the first place because of luck & Edo buffs. Even then, one of them still died...


When did the Gold and Silver Brothers get lucky? When was it indicated they couldn't handle themselves without Edo-Buffs. 



> Gaara wouldn't have been able to grind up anywhere near the amount of sand he had in Suna.


Okay, but he'd still have enough sand to block the C1-Bird Deidara used w/o needing his gourd sand, and that would have been the end for Deidara.



> his was not a one on one, fight. Deidara had to invade a village and capture its Kage.


Yes it was a 1 on 1 fight, no one else was help Gaara when he engaged Deidara. And Deidara had major help invading the village from Sasori.



> Deidara couldn't kill Gaara, and considering Deidara utilizes explosives in combat, that's kinda hard.


Gaara also had this disadvantage, as he too was aiming to capture Deidara:

DBIII, "Massacre is not his goal, but the village's preservation. Therefore, he didn't kill the invader, but aimed to capture him"

And if anything Gaara suffered from this worse as he actually had a chance to kill Deidara when he got his gourd sand on him, but instead when to disable him by crushing his arm. On the other hand Deidara couldn't even touch Gaara, until he use his attack the village tactic.



> Link?


Tobi, "Deidara-san! Did you see my Jutsu!? This thing was nothing for me!"

I mean at best you could argue this was a team effort.



> You misunderstood. I'm surprised that you believe Tsunade's performance against Kabuto blows away "anything" (not everything) Deidara's done, even his low ends feats. I'm not sure how losing to an ambush squad is better than being defeated by Preskip Kabuto.


Tsunade wasn't defeated by Part I Kabuto, they were fighting equally. Than she went on to show she had higher level abilities and fought against Orochimaru + Kabuto. 

Part I Kabuto is better than any member of the ambush-Squad by a good margin; in-fact his DB Stats reflect that even in Part I, he was around Deidara's level, earning the same 32 point total as Deidara [though perhaps a bit lower combat ability due to being a medical ninja; though he was far from the standard medic nin, so IDK]. And i'm aware that Deidara was fighting more members of the ambush squad than just 1 at a time, but he also had his own back up aiding him. Same deal when she was fighting Orochimaru, even armless he was well beyond any member of the ambush squad, especially with Kabuto to perform summoning for him.

Than on top of that, while Deidara was buffed with Edo-perks and at his best; Tsunade was actually rusty and at her worst. Which makes it even more impressive.



> He was still a Kage & Jinchuriki. The individual Sannin hype alone does not put any of the Sannin "well above" any of the five great leaders. .


Your really going to tell me that the title of a Sannin doesn't put some above the weakest Kage we've seen from the weakest village:

Ebizu, "In order to stop Orochimaru touted as one of the three great ninja...it would take the help of another from that same trio" 

DBII, "Are the only ones who can fight against the three sannins the sannins themselves?"

Really doubt that knowledgeable ninja like Ebizu and DBII would question if the only ones who can beat a Sannin is another Sannin if any Kage stands a chance to do so. 

Than we have Kisame stating that the Sannin title places a person above the 7Mist Swordsmen and Uchiha Clan:

Kisame, "his guardian is of those 'Legendary Three Ninja' "
"He, as an opponent, makes 'Konoha's Uchiha clan' and the 'Seven Shinobi Swordmen of the Mist' seem like nothing."

I also think this one is funny:

DBII, "Even ghosts would cower before Konoha?s three sannins!"

Than there is the fact that she is Hokage and Hokage, which is > Kazekage



> Certainly not to the point where we just ignore match up


Tsunade has never been in a position where she need ranged Jutsu and it was never indicated that she is weak in that area. So there is no way to know if match up is actually an issue here. 

But to be perfectly honest it is enough where match isn't likely to change the out-come. The manga has gone out of it's way to highlight a Sannin & a Hokage as above your average Kage, and Gaara is the weakest Kage we've seen. On-top of that the manga even raises some doubts over whether he was nominated for his strength or Shukaku's; than the manga raises some doubts over whether Deidara would have even won if not for the circumstances of the match. 

So on one hand you have someone highlighted as above average even among Kages, while on the other hand you have some one barely won out over the weakest Kage under dubious circumstances. Than that same person gets owned by the ambush Squad and is 3 points away from Tsunade in DB stats, which usually results in a stomp when people like that fight. To me the manga couldn't get any clearer whose stronger.



> Protecting the civilians (the village itself got nuked) speaks high of her medical abilities, which I not once doubted.


It also speaks towards her own defensive capabilities and stamina. She was able to put up individual defense for each person in the village that allowed them to survive CST. Think about that for a second.



> Speaking of Pain, he basically invaded and shat on a Konoha under Tsunade, with no lost bodies until Naruto arrived. She didn't even get any panel time to fight...


Because Tsunade was healing the village. Plus what the hell does Tsunade's strength in relation to Pain have to do with anything; obviously Pain is stronger than Tsunade, but Pain is way stronger then Deidara. So what does that prove.



> In my opinion, stat totals don't reflect who would win a fight, because not all stats are equally important and it ignores character interaction completely.


The Stat Totals reflect who the superior ninja is, not who would win in a fight, due to the issue of match up and different ninja excelling in different areas, which are not always combat oriented. However typically one would expect the superior ninja to win in a fight, let alone one who is superior by 3 stat points, which is like the gap between CE Tenten and CE Temari; or close to it.



> And sometimes they're just weird power ranking wise, with Hidan & Zabuza being > Part 2 Gaara.


That's not weird at all. Gaara just lost his Bijuu and Start of Part II Gaara is overestimated in the first place, due to his only fight him having a topographic advantage. Like I said Gaara was the weakest Kage of the weakest village. Defeating him doesn't mean as much as people make it out to be.


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 8, 2014)

I think the power structure of the manga has been made pretty clear with some discrepancies here and there 


 Rikudo's and Kaguya at the top of the naruto verse 

 Indra and Asura 

then you have Minato, Hashirama, Prime Hiruzen & Madara those 4 have been hyped as being the greatest of ninja's that aren't beyond human limitations 

then you have Obito(pre juubi), Kabuto, Naruto/Sasuke (Obito Fight), Nagato(maybe)

then you have Sannin, Nagato(maybe), Danzo, Old Hiruzen , Itachi, Sasuke/Naruto(Kages Arc), Onoki

then you have upper tier atakuski and Kage , Konan, Sasori, Raikages, Muu, Troll, Kisame 

then you have mid tier atakuski and high  jounins , Deidara, Kakuzu, Asuma, Yamato, Dan, Hiashi 

then rookies , everyone else 


only characters right now that are hard to rank are the Uzumaki women (Mito, Kushina, Karin) because we don't fully know how kishi wants us to interpret their power and hasn't much been stated about them in the datebook 

Sakura, Gaara, Kakashi because other than MC's their power has been the only ones that haven't really been static and they aren't quite finished products 

right now Gai because he has one power/stipulation that allows him to fight beyond the kages , but most of his portrayal has him barely scratching the surface of kage level and based upon how we're supposed to see the story I doubt kishi wants us to think Gai > Minato, Madara, Hashirama as that wouldn't make sense , matter of fact how I perceive it is that 8th gate is only a last resort because every other option has been exercised , and tp be honest Madara isn't even fighting back and only taking punishment and he had help at the beginning of the clash , there is no way Gai is an upper tier shinobi in this manga.


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## Rocky (Apr 8, 2014)

Back on a phone, so I'll just address some direct  points. 

1.) You keep saying that Shukaku Gaara was the "weakest Kage." What is this based on, exactly? 

2.) I don't believe Tsunade (or any of the Sannin) have been portrayed above the "average" Kage at all, and especially not to the point where match up is ignored. They're actually right in with the average Kage. The people I believe are stronger than average are Minato, Nagato, SM Kabuto, etc. Sannin individually aren't at that level. 

3.) Darui cut off Kinkaku's arm, but Kin kicked it at him (tagging him with the rope while he was saving Mabui), grew it back, and cut Darui's soul with it. Then, he was sealed away because he said "and ill" which was close enough to "dull."  

4.) Even if Tsunade has a Jutsu for Deidara's flight, he's sill a good match up. Flight puts him away from her legendary strength and he has C4 for Byakugo.


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## Turrin (Apr 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> 1.) You keep saying that Shukaku Gaara was the "weakest Kage." What is this based on, exactly?


A couple of things. 

In general the manga has implied the Kazekage as the weakest of the Gokage. First Sungakure is the weakest village and therefore it's easiest to become Kage there. Second Gaara's competition at the time was specifically low; the strongest besides Gaara that we saw were Chiyo [Retired], Baku, and Kankuro, plus the village was heavily weakened from their fight with Konoha; that certainly made it even easier to become Kazekage. Third even their strongest Kazekage was defeated by Sasori, and while I find Sasori often underestimated he's still not as terrible strong as one needs to be to defeat the strongest Kages of other villages, and that's even after adding the Kazekage's powers in part to his own. 

So Gaara being a newly appointed Kazekage during a time in which the village was even weaker than normal does not help his standings. 

Besides that Start of Part II Gaara does not have much in terms of portrayal the way the other Kages do. Even 4th Kazekage who is often considered one of the weaker Kages subdued Shukaku on occasion, while I think the manga implies Gaara did not surpass Shukaku until the current war-arc. He doesn't even have that impressive off a mission record, so it's not like he was accomplishing many incredible things off panel. The strongest person he defeated is still Lee back in the CE exams, and while that isn't a good way to judge his strength, because obviously got stronger, that's just it the author gives us nothing in the way of hype aside from him actually getting the title of Kazekage at a young age; though even that the author places some doubt on whether it was due to his own strength or Shukaku's.

Than we have his DB Stats and while his DB Stats wouldn't reflect the perks he got from Shukaku, they are still no where near those of other characters who were indicated to be strong Kages or Kage-class individuals. And it's not like he was a perfect Jinchuuriki that could get a monstrous boost from Shukaku, that stats don't account for; he got some boosts, but not enough to make up the spread.



> I don't believe Tsunade (or any of the Sannin) have been portrayed above the "average" Kage at all, and especially not to the point where match up is ignored. They're actually right in with the average Kage. The people I believe are stronger than average are Minato, Nagato, SM Kabuto, etc. Sannin individually aren't at that level.


Whether they are above average or bellow average depends on which Kages we are talking about. When compared to Kazekage's, they are better than all of them. So if a Sannin was to become Kazekage there is little doubt in my mind that, he/she would be considered the greatest Kazekage ever.

When compared to Raikage, Mizukage, and Tsuchikages; the Sannin are up there with the best we've seen come out of those villages. So if not thee best, they would be considered among the best and certainly still in the discussion for thee best.

It's only when discussing the Hokages where they'd come off as average or bellow. And I don't really think it's fair to call some average just because they are triumphed by some of the Hokages, when they are still better than or at least up there with all of the other Kages from the other 4 villages. 



> Darui cut off Kinkaku's arm, but Kin kicked it at him (tagging him with the rope while he was saving Mabui), grew it back, and cut Darui's soul with it. Then, he was sealed away because he said "and ill" which was close enough to "dull."


What your showing me is that if Gin & Kin didn't have Edo-Buffs they may have had to resort to using Kyuubi-Chakra sooner or amber-sealing jar if it was still in their possession, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have won still. 



> Even if Tsunade has a Jutsu for Deidara's flight, he's sill a good match up. Flight puts him away from her legendary strength


Depends if he actually gets the chance to take off, which I have serious doubts about considering his tendency to dick around with C1 close to the ground. 



> and he has C4 for Byakugo.


I have my doubts about C4 overcoming Byakugo. One is suppose to destroy cells, the other is suppose to regenerate cells. It seems to me that it would come down to which can do it's job faster (Tsunade can also add to the regen factor with other medical techniques as well), which is something we don't know.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> A couple of things.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Fair enough.

But I still want you to keep in mind that it wasn't a one on one, but an actual village invasion. Entering a village and capturing its Kage is harder than just defeating its Kage in battle. Though Suna may be the weakest of the major villages...it's still one of the five strongest villages in the Manga.



> When compared to Raikage, Mizukage, and Tsuchikages; the Sannin are up there with the best we've seen come out of those villages. So if not thee best, they would be considered among the best and certainly still in the discussion for thee best.
> 
> It's only when discussing the Hokages where they'd come off as average or bellow. And I don't really think it's fair to call some average just because they are triumphed by some of the Hokages, when they are still better than or at least up there with all of the other Kages from the other 4 villages.



The Sannin are stronger than Mei, but individually they aren't any better than Ei & Sandaime (1st & 2nd Raikage are unclear of course), Onoki or Mu (1st Tsuchikage unclear), Yagura or Trollkage (1st & 3rd Mizukage unclear), or ANY of the Hokage, except probably aged Hiruzen.

The Sannin can beat some of these people, but you would have to delve into match up to know who. My point is, they lie within the standard for Kage level in the Manga. I would say that Minato or Tobirama are the cutoff for being "above" the standard Kage.



> What your showing me is that if Gin & Kin didn't have Edo-Buffs they may have had to resort to using Kyuubi-Chakra sooner or amber-sealing jar if it was still in their possession, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have won still.



Well Kinkaku would've lost an arm...but yes, they would've won (because of Ginkaku's Rokubi cloak)...against Darui. Against Ino-Shika-Cho after that....not so sure.



> Depends if he actually gets the chance to take off, which I have serious doubts about considering his tendency to dick around with C1 close to the ground.



Tsunade isn't as fast as Sasuke, and Tobi isn't here to distract Deidara. As long as he's able to dodge her first punch, he should realize that he needs his bird. 



> I have my doubts about C4 overcoming Byakugo. One is suppose to destroy cells, the other is suppose to regenerate cells. It seems to me that it would come down to which can do it's job faster (Tsunade can also add to the regen factor with other medical techniques as well), which is something we don't know.



C4's disintegration speed seemed more rapid that Byakugo's healing, but regardless, regenerating every cell in her body is going to put an incredible strain on Tusunade..and Deidara can just use it again.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> In general the manga has implied the Kazekage as the weakest of the Gokage.



No such thing has been implied. Ever.

In fact, the manga makes no direct indications regarding the power hierarchy of the five Kage.



> First Sungakure is the weakest village and therefore it's easiest to become Kage there.



That is incredibly fallacious; the weakest village overall could still have one or two guys who are in a league of their own. There might be an elite few in stiff competition with one another, even if the rest of the shinobi are garbage.

Not saying any of that's the case with Suna, because it isn't, but your reasoning is poor enough to warrant open dissent.



> Second Gaara's competition at the time was specifically low; the strongest besides Gaara that we saw were Chiyo [Retired], Baku, and Kankuro, plus the village was heavily weakened from their fight with Konoha; that certainly made it even easier to become Kazekage.



That doesn't mean Gaara was the weakest Kage.



> Third even their strongest Kazekage was defeated by Sasori, and while I find Sasori often underestimated he's still not as terrible strong as one needs to be to defeat the strongest Kages of other villages, and that's even after adding the Kazekage's powers in part to his own.



Sasori's one of the stronger Akatsuki members and considered a credible threat to guys like Orochimaru and Deidara. No shame in being killed by him.



> So Gaara being a newly appointed Kazekage during a time in which the village was even weaker than normal does not help his standings.



Neither does it point to him being the weakest of the five Kage, when in fact that is very clearly Mei.



> Besides that Start of Part II Gaara does not have much in terms of portrayal the way the other Kages do. Even 4th Kazekage who is often considered one of the weaker Kages subdued Shukaku on occasion, while I think the manga implies Gaara did not surpass Shukaku until the current war-arc.



Where are you drawing these "implications" from? I swear you are making up material the manga never addressed.



> He doesn't even have that impressive off a mission record, so it's not like he was accomplishing many incredible things off panel. The strongest person he defeated is still Lee back in the CE exams, and while that isn't a good way to judge his strength, because obviously got stronger, that's just it the author gives us nothing in the way of hype aside from him actually getting the title of Kazekage at a young age; though even that the author places some doubt on whether it was due to his own strength or Shukaku's.



Based on his performance in subsequent arcs without Shukaku, there shouldn't be any doubt about Gaara's innate talents.



> Than we have his DB Stats and while his DB Stats wouldn't reflect the perks he got from Shukaku, they are still no where near those of other characters who were indicated to be strong Kages or Kage-class individuals. And it's not like he was a perfect Jinchuuriki that could get a monstrous boost from Shukaku, that stats don't account for; he got some boosts, but not enough to make up the spread.



We don't even have stats for most of the current five Kage.

I think this goes without saying, but don't expect anything stellar from Mei.



> Depends if he actually gets the chance to take off, which I have serious doubts about considering his tendency to dick around with C1 close to the ground.



Deidara gets an unfair wrap ever since Kishi trolled him with Sai.

He never had any problems holding his own prior to that incident, and he's fought shinobi like Gai, Sasuke, and Oonoki. When he's not an Edo Tensei, he's actually quite exceptional with survival tactics.



> I have my doubts about C4 overcoming Byakugo. One is suppose to destroy cells, the other is suppose to regenerate cells. It seems to me that it would come down to which can do it's job faster (Tsunade can also add to the regen factor with other medical techniques as well), which is something we don't know.



C4 seemed to destroy a good deal faster than Byakugou repaired Tsunade during her fight with Madara.


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## animeboy1 (Apr 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> A couple of things.
> 
> In general the manga has implied the Kazekage as the weakest of the Gokage. First Sungakure is the weakest village and therefore it's easiest to become Kage there. Second Gaara's competition at the time was specifically low; the strongest besides Gaara that we saw were Chiyo [Retired], Baku, and Kankuro, plus the village was heavily weakened from their fight with Konoha; that certainly made it even easier to become Kazekage.



What competition did Tsunade have, for that matter? Jiraiya wasn't interested, and part 1 Kakashi was far below his current level. Hiruzen was dead, the village was weak. You can't expect each village to have a dozen Kage level candidates. 



> Third even their strongest Kazekage was defeated by Sasori, and while I find Sasori often underestimated he's still not as terrible strong as one needs to be to defeat the strongest Kages of other villages, and that's even after adding the Kazekage's powers in part to his own.



Why are you contradicting yourself? You stated before, that Sasori probably killed the third Kazekage by default. Also, the third was mentioned to be the strongest Kazekage at the beginning of part 2. Gaara definitely grew much stronger, since the beginning. There is the large possibility that, his current level is above the third.

Even if, you continue contradicting yourself, I'm pretty sure, that even you think, Gaara can overcome Sasori.


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But I still want you to keep in mind that it wasn't a one on one, but an actual village invasion. Entering a village and capturing its Kage is harder than just defeating its Kage in battle. Though Suna may be the weakest of the major villages...it's still one of the five strongest villages in the Manga.


The thing is no one interfered with Deidara's battle though. And in terms of invading the village all we saw was Sasori's inside man killing the initial guards. Than Deidara killed a few scouts as to not be spotted. Right after that Gaara engaged Deidara in the air. 



> The Sannin are stronger than Mei, but individually they aren't any better than Ei & Sandaime (1st & 2nd Raikage are unclear of course), Onoki or Mu (1st Tsuchikage unclear), Yagura or Trollkage (1st & 3rd Mizukage unclear), or ANY of the Hokage, except probably aged Hiruzen


Sandaime Raikage, Onoki, and maybe Yagura are really the only ones I think can be argued to be equal to any Sannin. The rest don't have the portrayal to push them that far up. That's not to say the Sannin would stomp them, many would probably give a Sannin extremely high diff and I consider many to be on a similar "level" to the Sannin, but unless Kishi invents a type match up issue I don't see them winning.



> he Sannin can beat some of these people, but you would have to delve into match up to know who. My point is, they lie within the standard for Kage level in the Manga. I would say that Minato or Tobirama are the cutoff for being "above" the standard Kage.


Here's the thing, what about the other 10 Kages (11 if we include Mei and 12 if we include Ei). As things stand i would not be shocked if many of the Kages you mentioned were actually above average.



> Well Kinkaku would've lost an arm...but yes, they would've won (because of Ginkaku's Rokubi cloak)...against Darui. Against Ino-Shika-Cho after that....not so sure.


Or if they didn't have Edo Buffs they would have used Kyuubi Chakra sooner and wouldn't have lost that arm. It's hard to say. It even harder to say considering they didn't have their strongest treasure at the time.



> Tsunade isn't as fast as Sasuke, and Tobi isn't here to distract Deidara. As long as he's able to dodge her first punch, he should realize that he needs his bird.


It's not like Deidara escaped one of Sasuke's attacks and immediately went to take flight. He tried C1 first. Likewise against the ambush Squad he was dicking around with C1 close to the ground. And it's also not like Tsunade has to just go for straight forward attacks. Also evading Tsunade's strike isn't the same as evading Sasuke's sword slashes as she can make giant shockwaves with her hits. There are tons of factors to consider here, but given Deidara's portrayal of being fodderized by the ambush squad before he flew away to a higher altitude, I'm not going to put it past him to get his ass beat by Tsunade before, he flies away.



> C4's disintegration speed seemed more rapid that Byakugo's healing,


What is this based on?



> but regardless, regenerating every cell in her body is going to put an incredible strain on Tusunade..and Deidara can just use it again.


She did it on a village wide scale, I don't see regenerating from C4 even multiple times being an issue for her, unless were assuming she has very little chakra stored in her seal.



animeboy1 said:


> What competition did Tsunade have, for that matter? Jiraiya wasn't interested, and part 1 Kakashi was far below his current level. Hiruzen was dead, the village was weak. You can't expect each village to have a dozen Kage level candidates.


Jiraiya was only denying the post, because he could find a suitable replacement in Tsunade, something the elders agreed with. So it's not like they thought, welp she's somewhat stronger than Part I Kakashi, let's give her the position and let Jiriaya just wander around. Rather they were wiling to accept her instead of Jiriaya, because of who she was as a Ninja. Jiriaya himself likely wouldn't have accepted any other replacement ether.



> Why are you contradicting yourself? You stated before, that Sasori probably killed the third Kazekage by default.


That's before I knew the stat totals are suppose to measure a shinobi's strength. Now seeing that Kishi wants us to see Sasori as close to Orochimaru's level I can understand him beating Sandaime-Kazekage with high diff. However I'm still more than willing to entertain the possibility he won with underhanded tactics, but whether it's an underhanded win or not doesn't seem to matter to Rocky, so I didn't think there was any need to go there.



> Also, the third was mentioned to be the strongest Kazekage at the beginning of part 2. Gaara definitely grew much stronger, since the beginning. There is the large possibility that, his current level is above the third.


No one is talking about Gaara's current strength. The discussion has always been Start of Part II Gaara. 



> Even if, you continue contradicting yourself, I'm pretty sure, that even you think, Gaara can overcome Sasori.


Could I see it happening, sure. Could I see Sasori overcoming Gaara sure. Hard to say whose the better Ninja overall


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## Kai (Apr 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> , but unless Kishi invents a type match up issue I don't see them winning.


Match ups are the prime determinant in who wins among comparable levels; portrayal gets you only so far when the [Kage] spectrum is so wide.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The thing is no one interfered with Deidara's battle though.



And the military just sat there...because?




> Sandaime Raikage, Onoki, and maybe Yagura are really the only ones I think can be argued to be equal to any Sannin. The rest don't have the portrayal to push them that far up. That's not to say the Sannin would stomp them, many would probably give a Sannin extremely high diff and I consider many to be on a similar "level" to the Sannin, but unless Kishi invents a type match up issue I don't see them winning.



Mu, easily. TrollKage killed Mu, so him too. Every Hokage, both Raikage can either stomp or lose depending on conditions, and the rest if the Kage have unknown power so we aren't sure how they compare to the Sannin.



> Here's the thing, what about the other 10 Kages (11 if we include Mei and 12 if we include Ei). As things stand i would not be shocked if many of the Kages you mentioned were actually above average.



Which ten? The 3rd Kazekage (hypothetically) & Current Gaara can easily compete with the Sannin. How on earth would they have been portrayed massively superior? As for the others, we don't know. 



> Or if they didn't have Edo Buffs they would have used Kyuubi Chakra sooner and wouldn't have lost that arm.



So they were arrogant with the Edo Buffs.....



> There are tons of factors to consider here, but given Deidara's portrayal of being fodderized by the ambush squad before he flew away to a higher altitude, I'm not going to put it past him to get his ass beat by Tsunade before, he flies away.



He also made it into the air against Hebi Sasuke & Team Gai, he can easily get in the air against Tsunade.



> What is this based on?



C4 deconstructing Sasuke quicker than Byakugo healed a stab wound. 



> She did it on a village wide scale, I don't see regenerating from C4 even multiple times being an issue for her, unless were assuming she has very little chakra stored in her seal.



Funneling her Chakra into Katsuyu (which put her in a coma btw)≠ regenerating every cell in the body...multiple times...if she even can. It isn't clear if her head can even grow back.


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> And the military just sat there...because?


Plot  Same reason military sat there when Pain was fight Naruto.



> Mu, easily. TrollKage killed Mu, so him too. Every Hokage, both Raikage can either stomp or lose depending on conditions, and the rest if the Kage have unknown power so we aren't sure how they compare to the Sannin


What does Mu and Troll killing each other have to do with the Sannin? I've seen nothing from Ei that makes me think the author wants us to see him as equivalent to a Sannin.



> Which ten? The 3rd Kazekage (hypothetically) & Current Gaara can easily compete with the Sannin. How on earth would they have been portrayed massively superior? As for the others, we don't know.


The 5 Kazkage's, if you have doubts about current Gaara than supplement him with start of Part II Gaara
Shodai Mizukage, Sandaime Mizukage, and Mei
Shodai Raikage, Nindaime Raikage, and Ei
Shodai Tsuchikage

These are the ones I feel Kishi hasn't done enough with for them to even be in the conversation as roughly equal to the Sannin. If you want to assert the Sannin are average I feel as if you need to prove a great many of these characters are at least roughly equal to the Sannin, and I don't see how that is possible.



> So they were arrogant with the Edo Buffs.....


Not arrogant, they appropriately estimated themselves. I mean losing an arm didn't matter. 



> He also made it into the air against Hebi Sasuke & Team Gai, he can easily get in the air against Tsunade.


He made it into the air with Tobi's help against Hebi-Sasuke and some luck. He never made it into the air against Team Gai, so I have no clue what your talking about there.



> C4 deconstructing Sasuke quicker than Byakugo healed a stab wound.


I don't know how your measuring time in those panels. 



> Funneling her Chakra into Katsuyu (which put her in a coma btw)≠ regenerating every cell in the body...multiple times...if she even can. It isn't clear if her head can even grow back.


Not all the cells are destroyed by C4 at the same time, they are destroyed over time, as seen with the crumbling effect. So again the regeneration would just have to work at the some pace great enough where C4 didn't completely eradicate her before a good amount of cells can be replaced.

And honestly I don't think anyone with a straight face can tell me they know for sure how Kishi would weigh in on this issue.



Kai said:


> Match ups are the prime determinant in who wins among comparable levels; portrayal gets you only so far when the [Kage] spectrum is so wide.


Honestly Kai, how often have match ups decided the winner? Matches often make things easier for one shinobi, but it's clear the shinobi who wins is the holistically superior one in nearly every instance I can think off of the top of me head. For example:

Match up probably made things easier for Itachi against Orochimaru; but in the end Itachi was still point blank stated to be the stronger shinobi [at least until recent developments].

Match up made things easier for Jiriaya to defeat Konan; but in the end it's extremely obvious that Jiriaya is the stronger Shinobi

Match up made things easier for Sasuke against Deidara; but in the end it was point blank stated that even without that he would have still won

Match up made things easier for Gai vs Kisame; but it's extremely obvious that Gai is the stronger shinobi

Match up made things tougher for Sasori vs Chiyo & Sakura, but Kishi has it point blank stated that Sasori [the superior shinobi] let himself be defeated

Match up in terms the of the elemental wheel is suppose to make things easier, but the two Jutsu still need to be of at least equivalent level for this aspect to even come into play. 

The only instance I can think of that is even remotely debatable is Kisame vs B, but in that case one has to wonder if match up would have really mattered if B wasn't trying to protect Sabu/Ponta, and actually use his Full Hachibi Form. 

Than in most instances Kishi doesn't even bother to mention match up as an issue, it's just the forum looking at each characters abilities and concluding that one is a better match up than another; but in reality we don't know, because we aren't privy to that characters entire arsenal. 

Moral of the story. Match up typically only decides difficulty not the winner and very few times does Kishi actually mention match up as an issue in the manga-cannon.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Plot  Same reason military sat there when Pain was fight Naruto.



The military sat out the Pain fight because they were "portrayed" to be useless against Pain. Pain kind soloed Konoha before Naruto got there anyway, so it isn't like Kishi though they were some kind of super threat to him.



> What does Mu and Troll killing each other have to do with the Sannin? I've seen nothing from Ei that makes me think the author wants us to see him as equivalent to a Sannin.



Mu > Sannin (imo), and since Trollkage is roughly on Mu's level, he may be stronger than them as well (though he would probably lose due to match-up).

As for Raikage, I don't see how you can claim the Sannin are overly superior to him. Maybe if the Sannin were equal to Minato, who the Raikage basically admitted inferiority to, then I would think it plausible. The thing is, I don' think the Sannin individually compare to Minato in (your definition of) portrayal, so I think they're on that tier below Minato, with Raikage.



> These are the ones I feel Kishi hasn't done enough with for them to even be in the conversation as roughly equal to the Sannin. If you want to assert the Sannin are average I feel as if you need to prove a great many of these characters are at least roughly equal to the Sannin, and I don't see how that is possible.



What has Tsunade done that puts her *decisively* above someone like Ei? She technically had a more important role in the Madara fight because she was the medic, but combat wise, how did she shine above him? _Even if she did_, being a tad bit more useful against Madara doesn't indicate that she's better. It shows that she has more useful abilities against Madara's particular skill set.

Personally, I would say that Mu, Sandaime Raikage, Madara-fight Onoki, Ei, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, and Younger Hiruzen are stronger than the Sannin. You could throw Trollkage in there as well, as he's on the same level as Mu (I just think he has some butt-cheeks match ups against them though, so he would lose to them). Maybe even Yagura, depending on how competent he was with Isobu. So at the most, we could have eleven Shinobi stronger than them. Even if you disagree with Ei (I know you will), that's still ten, which is roughly the same number of Kage that they are stronger than. Thus, they are average, or in the middle of the Kage tier. 



> Not arrogant, they appropriately estimated themselves. I mean losing an arm didn't matter.



If they used the fox power sooner, Ginkaku wouldn't have died.



> He made it into the air with Tobi's help against Hebi-Sasuke and some luck. He never made it into the air against Team Gai, so I have no clue what your talking about there.



He was originally distracted by Tobi in the first place when Tobi screamed "Hold on, don't detonate!" at him. Sasuke took advantage of that opening.

Against team Gai, he got away from them despite being discovered at an incredibly short distance. I did forget that his bird wasn't in the air when he jumped on it, but he still clone feinted everyone there. He has ways of playing Tsunade & taking flight. 



> And honestly I don't think anyone with a straight face can tell me they know for sure how Kishi would weigh in on this issue.



Whatever, then he drops his village buster C3 immediately following C4 to assist in overriding her regeneration.


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The military sat out the Pain fight because they were "portrayed" to be useless against Pain. Pain kind soloed Konoha before Naruto got there anyway, so it isn't like Kishi though they were some kind of super threat to him.


Random fodder is helpful against Madara, Obito, and Juubi; useless against Pain. Gai fighting Juubidara; useless against Pain. Etc...



> Mu > Sannin (imo), and since Trollkage is roughly on Mu's level, he may be stronger than them as well (though he would probably lose due to match-up).


Base on what?



> As for Raikage, I don't see how you can claim the Sannin are overly superior to him. Maybe if the Sannin were equal to Minato, who the Raikage basically admitted inferiority to, then I would think it plausible. The thing is, I don' think the Sannin individually compare to Minato in (your definition of) portrayal, so I think they're on that tier below Minato, with Raikage.


Your saying because Minato is stronger than a Sannin, that, the Sannin have to be roughly as strong as Ei; I literally do not see the connection and see no reason why the Sannin couldn't be stronger than Ei, but weaker than Minato. 

I also don't think the Sannin are a whole "tier" bellow Living-Minato.



> What has Tsunade done that puts her decisively above someone like Ei? She technically had a more important role in the Madara fight because she was the medic, but combat wise, how did she shine above him? Even if she did, being a tad bit more useful against Madara doesn't indicate that she's better. It shows that she has more useful abilities against Madara's particular skill set.


Tsunade hype blows away Ei's. Tsunade's performance against Madara whether it be in a support or combat role was better than Ei's. Tsunade's accomplishments are better than Ei's. Tsunade's titles (Greatest Medical Ninja ever, Strongest Kunoichi,  Sannin, and Hokage) are better than Ei's

I mean what has Ei done that places him as strong as Tsunade?



> Personally, I would say that Mu, Sandaime Raikage, Madara-fight Onoki, Ei, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, and Younger Hiruzen are stronger than the Sannin. You could throw Trollkage in there as well, as he's on the same level as Mu (I just think he has some butt-cheeks match ups against them though, so he would lose to them). Maybe even Yagura, depending on how competent he was with Isobu. So at the most, we could have eleven Shinobi stronger than them. Even if you disagree with Ei (I know you will), that's still ten, which is roughly the same number of Kage that they are stronger than. Thus, they are average, or in the middle of the Kage tier.


I disagree with most of them being stronger than the Sannin. Thee only ones I feel can be proven to be stronger than the Sannin are; Hashirama, Minato, and Hiruzen. The rest are extremely debatable. 

So really you've shown me three that are certainly stronger and 5 that are debatable. I throw you a bone and even put War-Arc Gaara on the list, raising it to 6. 

Versus: 1-Kazekage, 2-Kazekage, 3-Kazekage, 4-Kazekage, Start of Part II-Gaara, Ei, Mei, 1-Tsuchikage, 1-Mizukage, 3-Mizukage, 1-Raikage, &  2-Raikage; 12 Kages in total. 

I just don't see them being average a provable premise. 



> If they used the fox power sooner, Ginkaku wouldn't have died.


Ginkaku wouldn't have "died" if not for Darui getting lucky or them not having the amber sealing jar anyway. Plus we'd have to consider what degree of Fox chakra they'd utilize. I could see Kishi have them just utilizing KN0 so they don't get outclassed in CQC.



> He was originally distracted by Tobi in the first place when Tobi screamed "Hold on, don't detonate!" at him. Sasuke took advantage of that opening.


I'm sorry, but this is BS to me considering we've seen multiple times Deidara detonating clay with Tobi nearby without him giving a shit. On-top of that never was that indicated to be a distraction and Deidara does not credit him being nearly killed to Tobi distracting him, but rather Sasuke's CQC ability. In-fact here are two perfect examples of Deidara giving no fucks and exploding clay right in-front of Tobi's face:
discovered
discovered

And considering Deidara was shown blitzed by Sai's Neo, it's hardly surprising that Hebi-Sasuke would get the drop on him. 



> Against team Gai, he got away from them despite being discovered at an incredibly short distance. I did forget that his bird wasn't in the air when he jumped on it, but he still clone feinted everyone there.


He got the chance to clone feint when Naruto distracted Kakashi by going berserk. He only clashed with exhausted Tenten, that's it. As when the clash happens their is a metal meeting metal SFX and Tenten is the only one using metal weapons at the time.



> Whatever, then he drops his village buster C3 immediately following C4 to assist in overriding her regeneration.


Deidara would have to have knowledge going into the fight that Tsunade can regen C4. Than he'd have to not only get Tsunade to eat C4, but than make the conscious decision to use C3 right afterwards. The chances of us actually seeing a match like that are virtually non-existant. Maybe he'd win that way 1/100 times the match is played out. Honestly there is a much better chance of Deidara showing up to the match low on clay or getting his ass handed to him when he dicks around with C1; and by much better I mean it's something I could actually plausibly see Kishi writing. 

Beyond that i'm not even sure C3 would beat Tsunade, she did have the ability to allow an entire village to tank another village busting move; CST. We saw Manda shield Sasuke from the CO blast and though he died with Tsunade's Byakugo and Katsuya innately seeming a bit more tanky than Manda (she can pull out even larger Katsuya), that opens up another case to be made for Tsunade's survival.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Random fodder is helpful against Madara, Obito, and Juubi; useless against Pain. Gai fighting Juubidara; useless against Pain. Etc...



An entire alliance of fodder was "helpful" against the Stage 1 Jubi (under the command of a top tier strategist), until it transformed and fodderized. Naruto saved them by upgrading the fodder with cloaks, and also protected the fodder from danger.

Pain Arc Gai < War Gai, at least in Kishi's mind.



> Base on what?



I guess on Mu managing to beat Onoki, and the alliance hyping his Jinton. I think he would defeat any of the Sannin.



> Your saying because Minato is stronger than a Sannin, that, the Sannin have to be roughly as strong as Ei; I literally do not see the connection and see no reason why the Sannin couldn't be stronger than Ei, but weaker than Minato.
> 
> I also don't think the Sannin are a whole "tier" bellow Living-Minato.



You see, this portrayal thing just ends up being a clash of opinions and different interpretations of impressiveness. I do think Minato is far, _far_ above any of the Sannin individually, which is roughly where Raikage falls. There just aren't enough accomplishments that the Sannin have individually for me to consider them overly superior to the great village leaders, especially Raikage. Isn't Kumo right now is the strongest village based on that fan book? I don't really remember.



> Tsunade hype blows away Ei's. Tsunade's performance against Madara whether it be in a support or combat role was better than Ei's. Tsunade's accomplishments are better than Ei's. Tsunade's titles (Greatest Medical Ninja ever, Strongest Kunoichi,  Sannin, and Hokage) are better than Ei's
> 
> I mean what has Ei done that places him as strong as Tsunade?



Tsunade's hype doesn't shit on any Kage alone, her performance against Madara combat wise was not much better at all, and her accomplishments & victories are what exactly?

The title thing amuses me the most though. She's the "greatest medical Ninja," but Ei isn't a medic. She's the "strongest Kunoichi," but Ei isn't a girl. She's a Sannin and Hokage, but Ei has never directly been compared to either group, so I don't see how those titles make her inherently "better" than him.



> I disagree with most of them being stronger than the Sannin. Thee only ones I feel can be proven to be stronger than the Sannin are; Hashirama, Minato, and Hiruzen. The rest are extremely debatable.
> 
> So really you've shown me three that are certainly stronger and 5 that are debatable. I throw you a bone and even put War-Arc Gaara on the list, raising it to 6.
> 
> Versus: 1-Kazekage, 2-Kazekage, 3-Kazekage, 4-Kazekage, Start of Part II-Gaara, Ei, Mei, 1-Tsuchikage, 1-Mizukage, 3-Mizukage, 1-Raikage, &  2-Raikage; 12 Kages in total.



I don't think this is ever going to go anywhere. We just view the Manga way to differently, and have a completely different view of power levels.



> Ginkaku wouldn't have "died" if not for Darui getting lucky or them not having the amber sealing jar anyway. Plus we'd have to consider what degree of Fox chakra they'd utilize. I could see Kishi have them just utilizing KN0 so they don't get outclassed in CQC.



Darui didn't get anymore lucky than Kin/Gin did. How did he get lucky?

Also, if they could use the fox Chakra in lower stages, why didn't they use it before Ginkaku died?



> I'm sorry, but this is BS to me considering we've seen multiple times Deidara detonating clay with Tobi nearby without him giving a shit. On-top of that never was that indicated to be a distraction and Deidara does not credit him being nearly killed to Tobi distracting him, but rather Sasuke's CQC ability. In-fact here are two perfect examples of Deidara giving no fucks and exploding clay right in-front of Tobi's face:
> *far far weaker than renzoku bijuudama or chojou kebutsu?*
> *far far weaker than renzoku bijuudama or chojou kebutsu?*
> 
> And considering Deidara was shown blitzed by Sai's Neo, it's hardly surprising that Hebi-Sasuke would get the drop on him.



Yeah, but there's actually a panel of Deidara looking at Tobi going "damn." I'm not sure why he was distracted, but he _was_ distracted for some reason...



> He got the chance to clone feint when Naruto distracted Kakashi by going berserk. He only clashed with exhausted Tenten, that's it. As when the clash happens their is a metal meeting metal SFX and Tenten is the only one using metal weapons at the time.



My point is that he got away, from Team Gai no less.



> Deidara would have to have knowledge going into the fight that Tsunade can regen C4. Than he'd have to not only get Tsunade to eat C4, but than make the conscious decision to use C3 right afterwards. The chances of us actually seeing a match like that are virtually non-existant. Maybe he'd win that way 1/100 times the match is played out. Honestly there is a much better chance of Deidara showing up to the match low on clay or getting his ass handed to him when he dicks around with C1; and by much better I mean it's something I could actually plausibly see Kishi writing.
> 
> Beyond that i'm not even sure C3 would beat Tsunade, she did have the ability to allow an entire village to tank another village busting move; CST. We saw Manda shield Sasuke from the CO blast and though he died with Tsunade's Byakugo and Katsuya innately seeming a bit more tanky than Manda (she can pull out even larger Katsuya), that opens up another case to be made for Tsunade's survival.



Deidara will probably figure out her regeneration using C1-C2, and Tsunade has no knowledge on C4, so landing it isn't much of an issue. If she actually regens (which I think is unlikely), then he'll do it again (like he did against Sauce), but this time use C3 after to further override Byakugo. He is easily intelligent enough to think of that.

C3 may not beat Tsunade alone (even though it functions completely different that Shinra Tensei), but combining it with C4 could get the job done.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 9, 2014)

Katsuyu crushes Deidara under her fat rolls. It is known.


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> An entire alliance of fodder was "helpful" against the Stage 1 Jubi (under the command of a top tier strategist), until it transformed and fodderized. Naruto saved them by upgrading the fodder with cloaks, and also protected the fodder from danger.
> Pain Arc Gai < War Gai, at least in Kishi's mind.


Can you please just be real here, and admit this is Plot. I mean are we having an honest conversation or not. I mean you really believe that Gai went up Tiers and Tiers within the span of a week or so



> I guess on Mu managing to beat Onoki,


Edo-Mu defeated Onoki. Who knows how the match would have played out w/o Edo-Buffs.



> and the alliance hyping his Jinton. .


I think the context there was, that only Onoki could take Mu on and stop collateral damage. Unless you really think Mu would have solo'd the alliance if Onoki wasn't there. That's not to say it didn't hype him and Jinton, but beyond the Sannin; no way.



> You see, this portrayal thing just ends up being a clash of opinions and different interpretations of impressiveness. I do think Minato is far, far above any of the Sannin individually, which is roughly where Raikage falls. There just aren't enough accomplishments that the Sannin have individually for me to consider them overly superior to the great village leaders, especially Raikage.


Why is Minato far far above them? I mean here's the thing, if your just going to make assertions, without substantiating them then yes we end up at an impasse, as I can't do anything with that. 

Also for the Ei debacle let's not blame portrayal, because thee only thing that you could be basing him being anywhere near a Sannin on is "feats" and hypothetical match up. Because nothing and I mean nothing places him there otherwise. And as far as Jiriaya/Orochimaru are concerned the manga/DB outright states they are better. Orochimaru defeated the strongest Gokage; Jiriaya is placed higher than Orochimaru by both Itachi and the DB. That alone should be enough to places those two definitively above Ei; no discussion necessary. As for Tsunade I'd argue that the statement like Ebizu's where he doesn't think anyone other than a Sannin can beat a Sannin, also pretty definitively place the Sannin above the current Gokage, otherwise we have to believe Ebizu [an extremely knowledgeable ninja] is completely ignorant of the other Gokage's power. We also have to believe that Kishi would pose the same question in the DB, even despite the fact that an extremely well known and famous ninja like Ei was actually equivalent to the Sannin in his mind, which simply does not make sense. 



> Isn't Kumo right now is the strongest village based on that fan book? I don't really remember.


I don't remember whose military might was outright superior, I just remember Sungakure's was the worst (or tied for worst with Kirigakure). I'll try and find the quotes from Fan-BookII, but for some reason it's a bitch to look up.



> Tsunade's hype doesn't shit on any Kage alone


Shit on, no, but I never said that. Much better than Ei's, yeah that I can get behind.



> , her performance against Madara combat wise was not much better at all


Tsunade was thee primary reason for both times the Gokage land their most "effective" moves on Madara. Both in a support role and in a combat role. Than she was performing the second best against the Madara clones, besides Onoki. 



> and her accomplishments & victories are what exactly?


400 or so A-rank mission. 95 S-Rank missions. Saving the village from one of Nagato's strongest Jutsu. Saving the Gokage a bunch of times from annihilation in the Madara fight. Etc...



> The title thing amuses me the most though. She's the "greatest medical Ninja," but Ei isn't a medic. She's the "strongest Kunoichi," but Ei isn't a girl. She's a Sannin and Hokage, but Ei has never directly been compared to either group, so I don't see how those titles make her inherently "better" than him.


It's not a direct comparison to Ei, but speaks towards how she's being depicted. Greatest Medical Ninja, what Ei the greatest at? Strongest Kunoichi puts her decisively above at least one Kage (Mei), who i'm not sure Ei is decisively above. Sannin title, grants her tons of hype which is much better than any hype Ei has received; than we have the Ebizu comment where I simply can't imagine that if Ei was better than a Sannin he would make. Hokage has been compared to the other Kages, and it's implied that Hokage > other Hokages in the FB, when it says something along the lines of being at the top of Konoha puts you at the top of everything. Than there is the simple fact that Ei does not have any titles besides Raikage, which again is out done by Hokage.

Now I know you'll probably want to pick into each thing as a separate point, but I'm not saying anything individually puts her above Ei (except perhaps the Ebizu comment), however when looking at it holistically it's hard to imagine that Kishi wants us to see Ei as equal to her. 



> I don't think this is ever going to go anywhere. We just view the Manga way to differently, and have a completely different view of power levels.


I'm sorry, but this isn't a matter of view points. It's a simple fact that the Sannin being average among Kages is not a provable view-point, when we know so little about other Kages. 



> Darui didn't get anymore lucky than Kin/Gin did. How did he get lucky?


The better question is how did Gin/Kin get lucky, that seems totally made up to me.

As for how Darui got lucky, his second favorite word just ended up being so close to his first favorite word, and he managed to swap them without it being conscious strategy on his part. There is no bigger example of luck than that in the entire manga.



> lso, if they could use the fox Chakra in lower stages, why didn't they use it before Ginkaku died?


Why didn't they use higher stages before Ginkaku died? 



> Yeah, but there's actually a panel of Deidara looking at Tobi going "damn." I'm not sure why he was distracted, but he was distracted for some reason...


1) Just looking at the Katakana, "dam" is not the correct translation, it seems like it's more just Deidara making a sound of annoyance 
2) Deidara being annoyed doesn't mean he was distracted or even hesitated to blow up those bombs. 
3) We could also interpret that scene as Deidara being annoyed because Sasuke suddenly disappeared escaping from the area



> My point is that he got away, from Team Gai no less.


He had already gotten away before Team Gai arrived, since he clone feinted. His clone managed to escape when it was an exhausted Tenten pressing the attack. Should I give him a cookie?



> Deidara will probably figure out her regeneration using C1-C2, and Tsunade has no knowledge on C4, so landing it isn't much of an issue. If she actually regens (which I think is unlikely), then he'll do it again (like he did against Sauce), but this time use C3 after to further override Byakugo. He is easily intelligent enough to think of that.


The fact of the matter is Deidara has to survive long enough to use C4, than survive long enough to use C4 a second time, and have enough clay/chakra left to use C3. I don't see that happening. Again we are talking about someone that at his best the author allowed him to be fodderized by the ambush squad. Yet were doubting he'd have a Sannin do it.



> C3 may not beat Tsunade alone (even though it functions completely different that Shinra Tensei), but combining it with C4 could get the job done.


Okay if he uses C3 + C4 in consecutively he could overcome Byakugo, but that doesn't make him a bad match up for Tsunade as he needs to use two of his triumph cards to do it.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Can you please just be real here, and admit this is Plot. I mean are we having an honest conversation or not. I mean you really believe that Gai went up Tiers and Tiers within the span of a week or so



Ok.

If we start throwing around the plot card, there is no turning back. 



> Edo-Mu defeated Onoki. Who knows how the match would have played out w/o Edo-Buffs.



Most likely the same, unless you think Old Onoki has more stamina than Mu and would loloutlast.



> Why is Minato far far above them?



High points in the Kyubi flashback shit on anything the Sannin have done so far imo. That, plus the fact that Jiraiya wanked Minato hardcore in part 1 IIRC.

Oh, and then Base Minato lol'ing at Super Jubidama. ck
I know he was an Edo, which means he didn't tire, but he still had the Chakra capacity to pull it off.



> Also for the Ei debacle let's not blame portrayal, because thee only thing that you could be basing him being anywhere near a Sannin on is "feats" and hypothetical match up. Because nothing and I mean nothing places him there otherwise. And as far as Jiriaya/Orochimaru are concerned the manga/DB outright states they are better. Orochimaru defeated the strongest Gokage; Jiriaya is placed higher than Orochimaru by both Itachi and the DB. That alone should be enough to places those two definitively above Ei; no discussion necessary.



Ei hasn't really had many statements or general hype, but that's because he's a much newer character than the Sannin. If you notice, nearly all of their hype came before the Gokage were even formally introduced. What I use are his "feats" in terms of accomplishments and positions, like the Alliance General or Kage of the strongest village. Fan-book has them at #1 IIRC, cause Konoha fell after the Pain Arc.

As for the DB shit, that's just a heap of _bad_ transitive logic. Orochimaru beat the strongest Kage when suffering from the effects of old age. Even if we take Kabuto's shaky statement at face value, Oro_ barley_ won. None of these characters are decisively above one another. Slightly stronger characters can lose to slightly weaker ones, depending on individual skill sets.  



> As for Tsunade I'd argue that the statement like Ebizu's where he doesn't think anyone other than a Sannin can beat a Sannin, also pretty definitively place the Sannin above the current Gokage.





And Hiruzen, and Itachi, and Pain, and Rikudo....need I go on?



> Tsunade was thee primary reason for both times the Gokage land their most "effective" moves on Madara. Both in a support role and in a combat role. Than she was performing the second best against the Madara clones, besides Onoki.



Who performs the best against Susano'o clones depends on each characters individual match up with Susano'o. It isn't indicative of direct power levels, and the only person who can actually beat the clones was Onoki. All of the other Kage would lose.

I don't know what their first "effective move" was, but the second was a 5 man combination attack. If one part wasn't there, the entire thing would fail, so I wouldn't call Tsunade the "primary" anything.



> 400 or so A-rank mission. 95 S-Rank missions. Saving the village from one of Nagato's strongest Jutsu. Saving the Gokage a bunch of times from annihilation in the Madara fight. Etc...



We don't know Ei's mission completion record.

Tsunade saved some fodder from CST, but that took her out of commission fora _long_ time. Meanwhile, Naruto actually saved the village and thus was regarded as the hero. Tsunade's feat proves once again that she is a fantastic medical Ninja, but in terms of combat, that accomplishment doesn't mean nearly as much.

When did Tsunade save the rest of the Gokage from Madara? What, you mean healing them? What does this have to do with her combat ability? 



> Now I know you'll probably want to pick into each thing as a separate point, but I'm not saying anything individually puts her above Ei (except perhaps the Ebizu comment), however when looking at it holistically it's hard to imagine that Kishi wants us to see Ei as equal to her.



Even if I granted you that the Sannin are portrayed better, it isn't anything significant. Some people still think Minato vs. Tsunade or Orochimaru is a 50/50 because of match up man. In all honesty, It is flawed to state a certain Shinobi wins by "portrayal" because it ignores how their skills may interact with each other. Unless there is a statement making the outcome canon (Itachi > Orochimaru, or Minato > Ei, etc.), or it is blatantly obvious beyond debate (Madara vs Hinata), you should never ignore something because Kishi can invent new moves. Because you know what...

Kishi can invent portrayal too. He can invent anything.



> I'm sorry, but this isn't a matter of view points. It's a simple fact that the Sannin being average among Kages is not a provable view-point, when we know so little about other Kages.



They're average among Kage who's abilities have been somewhat discussed. 



> The better question is how did Gin/Kin get lucky, that seems totally made up to me.



That the sealing gourd decided to accept "nd I'll" as "Dull." He avoided the tabooed word but was caught on some cheap gimmick...then got out on one. 



> Why didn't they use higher stages before Ginkaku died?



I dunno. Arrogance? Incompetence? I have no clue.



> He had already gotten away before Team Gai arrived, since he clone feinted. His clone managed to escape when it was an exhausted Tenten pressing the attack. Should I give him a cookie.



He's a slippery bastard. He'll get in the air if he wants.



> Again we are talking about someone that at his best the author allowed him to be fodderized by the ambush squad. Yet were doubting he'd have a Sannin do it.



Plot. 



> Okay if he uses C3 + C4 in consecutively he could overcome Byakugo, but that doesn't make him a bad match up for Tsunade as he needs to use two of his triumph cards to do it.



He's a bad match up for her because he posses a way around her strength and ground manipulation.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2014)

@Rocky

Couple of things:

1) Ei has been in the story more than long enough now where the author has had time to give him a better portrayal. Look at Sandaime Raikage, his portrayal already well above Ei's and he had 2 to 3 chapters devoted to him. Onoki has had less panel time than Ei and his portrayal is better. The list goes on and on. So the excuse that Ei hasn't had enough panel time is very shallow. If you want to argue it's possible that Ei could be better than his current portrayal indicates and may get much better portrayal later on; but that's not an argument that can be presented as "likely" or even support whatsoever, it's little more than a hope on your part. 

2) On the issue of Ebizu comment you cite characters like Nagato, Itachi, etc... the problem with that is it makes sense that Ebizu wouldn't be aware of these characters true abilities (or in some cases their existence at all). They were shrouded in secrecy, unlike, Ei who was a prominent and famous figure throughout the 5 great nations, being the Raikage and all. This also jives with the fact that it Ebizu's comment was repeated in the form of question in the DB. Can only a Sannin really beat a Sannin, this is something that was a serious belief among people, because the Sannin were that good, but in the DB it's a question because Kishi is hinting at there being people better than them out there; but again it would not make sense to be questioning whether they are better than other prominent ninja, only ones shrouded in secrecy like Itachi, Nagato, etc... It's all about context.

3) I feel like most of your post has devolved into "match up", which to me doesn't jive with the manga at all. I can't think of a single example where Kishi has had match up make a inferior shinobi defeat a superior one. And even if i'm forgetting a couple instances, that's well a couple instances; it's not some huge prevailing issue in the manga. We can still safely say that the the shinobi whose been portrayed superior is likely to win. And again many "matches up" are simply inventions of the forum, predicated on the forum not knowing a characters entire arsenal.

4) You insist on not giving credit to the fact that characters have more in their arsenal than what we've seen, based on the fact that Kishi can "invent anything". However this argument itself is a fallacy, because it suggests that Kishi hasn't already heavily indicated in the manga that these characters have more in their arsenals, when he very clearly has. So Kishi isn't inventing anything in that regard, he's already implied it many times in the manga, DB, etc... The specific Jutsu he might invent on the spot or he might have them in mind the entire time; that's something we can't know, but that speaks more towards feats being bullshit than anything else, considering it just tells us we don't know what these characters have, which is exactly what i've been saying this entire time. And when it come to the point that Kishi can invent new portrayal, of course he can, but there are a major differences between that and when it comes to "feats". 

a) Kishi can portray a character's general level in a matter of a couple of chapters. Again Sandaime Raikage is an excellent example of this. It would take thousands of chapters to show off the entire arsenals of all the characters in the manga. Simply put Kishi has time to portray each character's strength, he doesn't have time to show each character's entire arsenals. This is important when discussing likelihood

b) When we basing something off portrayal we take 1 risk, that Kishi will some-how alter that character's portrayal for better or worse later in the manga. However this is an extremely minor risk as, unless the portrayal is very unclear to begin with, as it would essentially take a retecon on Kishi's part to drastically alter a character's portrayal (or some very detailed explanation). Personally I can't think of a single instance where a character's portrayal has been confirmed to have been altered this drastically. So at best were taking a minor singular risk. On the flip side of this as far as comparing a character based on can X-Character counter Y-Character's Jutsus logic this takes many risks. Literally every time we conclude that a Character-X can't counter a Jutsu of Character-Y's we are taking the risk that a character actually does have something in their arsenal to counter. And most of the time "feats" discussion like these will end up discussing many Jutsu, so most discussions will take 10 or more risks, based on this logic. On-top of that it's an extremely major risk as we constantly see even heavily feature characters pull out new Jutsu and it's a very real thing, that characters in the manga only pull out certain Jutsu that are applicable to the scenario they are in. On-top of that there is also the risk of Jutsu interacting in strange and unpredictable ways, and the risk of a character pulling out some master stroke strategy to counter in ways we hadn't thought was possible or at least not possible for that character before. So your probably taken over a dozen risks, by the time any detailed discussion like this based on "feats" occurs. This compared to the singular minor risk when it comes to portrayal. Again this matters heavily when discussing likelihood.

C) Kishi actually fucks around with "feats" a-lot more than people are willing to admit. Things like speed, strength, etc.. are a-lot more fluid than they are static; even size and scale Kishi many times makes quite misleading. This adds further in accuracies to "feat" based discussion, that one does not have to worry about when discussing portrayal.

5) The final point i'll touch on is "plot". Just because I said that Gai being useless against Deva-Path is "plot" doesn't suddenly mean you can start calling whatever the hell you want "plot" and pretend it's a compelling case. In the case of Gai, we are literally witnessing him face down Juubidara right now, so it's absolutely indisputable that him being useless in the Pain-arc was indeed plot; that is thee only reason why I would bring that up. Simply put usually we should seek a rational explanation first, rather than calling plot; in the Gai case there is none to be had what-so-ever. In the case of Deidara vs the Ambush Squad, that actually makes perfect sense with his portrayal up to that point. He always dicks around with C1 and always opens himself up to losing big time in those instance. Against Gaara he could have easily been crushed and fodderized, once Gaara got his gourd sand on him if not for Gaara trying to capture him, against Sasuke he could have been easily fodderized in the beginning if not for Tobi warning him and a touch of luck, and  against Onoki he could have been fodderized in the beginning if not for Akatsuchi stopping Onoki due to not wishing to harm turtle island. Turning around and coming up with excuses for all of these instances, and than claiming plot in the case of the ambush squad, is downright disingenuous and biased. Or to put it another way when we see Deidara fighting someone, with just C1, who is as far above the ambush squad as Juubidara is above Deva-Path; than you can come to me an cry plot. But not when his portrayal in that match is absolutely 100% consistent with his prior portrayal. Heck even the DB Stat Totals makes it obvious that your overrating the shit out Deidara; he's placed between Hidan and Kakuzu, both of which could have lost to the ambush Squad and in-fact Kakuzu did loose to a similar force (albeit a bit better, but that fits with him being a bit better than Deidara).


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2014)

1.) When minor antagonists are introduced into the story like that, their abilities are usually hyped to build up tension, and such was the case of the Edo Kage. I'm curious as to how Sandaime was portrayed better than Ei though. His endurance, resilience, and durability were played up to be inhumane, but so were Ei's strength and speed. They excel in different areas.

2.) The 4th Hokage is not a Sannin, is not shrouded in mystery, and can certainly beat a Sannin. Decisively. 

3.) How a Shinobi's offense interacts with another defense is not something you can cast to the side because of hypothetical additions to already known fighting styles. You could say that Orochimaru was portrayed above Onoki, but Jinton completely bypasses one of the reasons Orochimari is so powerful in the first place: nigh-immortality. Characters are often portrayed a certain way for a certain ability (or set of similar abilities). 

While there _are_ versatile characters who have a vast array of differing techniques, even _their_ strong points are usually focused in a particular area. The bottom line is that though portrayal is important, a shinobi that is portrayed so powerful for his Genjustu may struggle (or even lose) against somebody with a Genjutsu immunity. A powerful character that is known to have sub-par speed & reflexes may struggle with a character renowned for speed & power. A character that relies on drawing or poisoning the opponents blood may face some sever issues with characters that don't bleed. The list goes on..

Note: You shouldn't be looking in the Manga for match-up issues anyway. They make for _boring battles_, and usually, an author would avoid having those characters fight for plot purposes if anything. In the BD, we don't create threads of canon fights, so match up can easily be more prevalent here. 

4.) How a character is "portrayed" is literally just a matter of subjective impressiveness. I need you to realize that heavily featured characters pulling out new jutsu *is not in any way a logical indication that we haven't seen a lesser character's full arsenal.* Gaara continuing to use new jutsu is not logically indicative of the Second Mizukage having more to show us. That doesn't make any sense. If it's _obvious _that a certain character may have a certain Jutsu, or even any more Jutsu at all, then sure, it may be granted. Otherwise, you better have a *damn* good argument as to why they have anything important left to show. I'm going to play devil's advocate on this topic now, because I truly despise "lol anything can happen" attitudes. 

5.) You're stepping all over yourself. If Gai is truly the _*only*_ reason you brought up Konoha's reluctance to assist Naruto being attributed to "plot," then why the _hell_ is Suna's inability to stop Deidara from stealing Gaara plot? 

My original point was that Deidara didn't just defeat Gaara in battle. He _invaded a village_, captured its leader, and escaped cleanly. You claimed that Suna's military sat the battle out because of plot, so I'll give you the chance to tell me why now, and it better be compelling.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2014)

@Rocky

1) I gave other examples besides antagonists

2) Sandaime-Raikage fought Hachibi to a draw, took on 10,000 man army for 3 days & 3 Nights, etc... the better question is how has Ei's portrayal been anywhere near as good as Sandaime's. The stuff you mentioned is again "feats"

3) Yes we can cast aside how a shinobi's offense interacts with another defense, because we don't know if that Shinobi has something that can counter it he/she hasn't shown. The rest of this is just you citing things that seem like bad match ups on paper, but can't actually be proven to be bad match ups. There are a-lot of match ups that seem bad on paper, but end up not being the case. Example: On paper Deidara seemed like a bad match up for Hebi-Sasuke who had been primarily CQC (to mid-range) oriented up until that fight , but it turned out to actually be the reverse 

4) I'm sorry, but heavily featured characters pulling out new Jutsu does indeed make it extremely likely that characters who have been featured less have more Jutsu. Let's take a look at your Troll-Kage example. Troll-Kage had about 2 chapters to accumulate "feats" and showed a grand total of 4 Jutsu. Are you really going to sit here and tell me it's likely that Trollkage, a middle-age kage whose had tons of time to master Jutsu, only has 4 Jutsu in his entire arsenal, when a character like Gaara, a 16 year old kage, continues to show more Jutsu despite having vastly more panel time? I hope not, because I see no way that someone could genuinely assert that as a logical argument.

5) Suna did put up a defense, it's just that Sasori dealt with it not Deidara. All Deidara dealt with is the scouts. What I was calling plot, was the fact that no even attempted to do anything whatsoever during Gaara's fight vs Deidara, which quite honestly, the fact that they did nothing; is indeed a strong case to be made for plot in that instances.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 2) Sandaime-Raikage fought Hachibi to a draw, took on 10,000 man army for 3 days & 3 Nights, etc... the better question is how has Ei's portrayal been anywhere near as good as Sandaime's. The stuff you mentioned is again "feats"



This just speaks towards his incredible endurance & stamina. The 4th outran the Mangekyou Sharingan's perception, which is incredible portrayal for his speed. Like I said, they excel in different areas.



> 3) Yes we can cast aside how a shinobi's offense interacts with another defense, because we don't know if that Shinobi has something that can counter it he/she hasn't shown. The rest of this is just you citing things that seem like bad match ups on paper, but can't actually be proven to be bad match ups. There are a-lot of match ups that seem bad on paper, but end up not being the case. Example: On paper Deidara seemed like a bad match up for Hebi-Sasuke who had been primarily CQC (to mid-range) oriented up until that fight , but it turned out to actually be the reverse



No, they are bad match ups, and it isn't debatable. Somebody portrayed powerful for advanced regeneration is going to have a bad day against somebody with techniques that bypass or override regeneration. That's just how it is. This doesn't mean, in any way, that the regenrator can't win against the vaporizer, but it is definitely a _factor. _

Deidara was never a bad match-up for Sasuke...that's just incorrect. Sasuke has ranged fire release, extending Chidori variants, elemental superiority, and _flight himself_ in CS2. Deidara isn't a good match up for Tsunade just because he flies...he's a good match up because flight puts him far away from her OHKO strength, which is a _major factor_ in all of her battles. 

You ignore match up all you want, but be warned that it'll just lead to unsupported arguments. 



> 4) I'm sorry, but heavily featured characters pulling out new Jutsu does indeed make it extremely likely that characters who have been featured less have more Jutsu. Let's take a look at your Troll-Kage example. Troll-Kage had about 2 chapters to accumulate "feats" and showed a grand total of 4 Jutsu. Are you really going to sit here and tell me it's likely that Trollkage, a middle-age kage whose had tons of time to master Jutsu, only has 4 Jutsu in his entire arsenal, when a character like Gaara, a 16 year old kage, continues to show more Jutsu despite having vastly more panel time? I hope not, because I see no way that someone could genuinely assert that as a logical argument.



I already told you I was going to play devil's advocate.

Gaara has_ nothing _to do with Nidaime Mizukage. I don't see why having 4 Jutsu is a problem, because those are some very high level Jutsu that support him being Kage level. If it's obvious that Nindaime has something else (like Shunshin, because he graduated an academy), then it may be granted, but otherwise, I see no reason. Him being middle-aged with time on his hands (which wasn't proven either) doesn't prove anything. 

Even if we do grant him other minor Jutsu, it's impossible to prove they would ever be relevant to the discussion at hand.



> What I was calling plot, was the fact that no even attempted to do anything whatsoever during Gaara's fight vs Deidara, which quite honestly, the fact that they did nothing; is indeed a strong case to be made for plot in that instances.



They did nothing because they would get in Gaara's way.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2014)

@Rocky

1) It doesn't just reflect kindly on Sandaime's endurance, but also on his fighting prowess in general. On the flip side of this Ei has been hyped for his speed, by certain statements, but nothing that speaks towards his fighting prowess in general; outside of being a Raikage of course.

2) Hebi-Sasuke was someone highlighted for their regeneration and he was actually a bad match up for Deidara who on paper has some of the best Jutsu to bypass regeneration. Obito himself has been highlighted as a tough cookie to crumble in terms of endurance and regenerations, yet in the end this was portrayed as a non issue against someone like Minato, who on paper has some of the least well suited Jutsu to handle the more durable types; and in-fact that is often what we see suggested here in the BD. How does Minato handle Orochimaru, Tsunade, Kisame, Kakuzu, etc... even though I think in some of those cases it's ludicrous to think that he'd be pushed to suicide with Shiki Fuujin to win, but people make this very same match-up based assertions to say that he would. Another example on paper Konan seemed like a terrible match up for Obito, as she can spread out into a bunch of pieces of paper making it difficult for him to warp her or use the weapons he's shown up until than to cut her down; however in the end even despite Konan having extensive prep time Obito still triumphed over her. Another example, on paper after Sandaime Raikage tanked FRS, it would seem as if he'd be a poor match up for Sennin Modo Naruto whose strongest Jutsu at the time was FRS; however in the end a clone of Sennin Modo Naruto demonstrated a method to get around Sandaime's durability. Etc... list goes on and on.  So again, i'm sorry to say, but it's not that simple. 

3) On the issue of Deidara vs Hebi-Sasuke. All the shit you've cited came after or during the Deidara fight not before it. Chidori Eisou was only featured extending over close range before the Deidara fight. Elemental superiority was not known until the Deidara fight. Sasuke did not show long-range Katons until the Itachi fight. Sasukes CS2 wings never showed sustained long distances flight until the Deidara fight, and while this may seem counter intuitive now trust me that back then, the people arguing on "feats" were all over that shit with arguments saying we hadn't seen him fly that way; not to mention the issue of flight speed. Etc... Again before that fight happened on paper Deidara was an excellent match up for Sasuke, it was only until during and after that fight, where that stances was demonstrated to be completely and utterly wrong

4) Deidara being a bad match for Tsunade because his flight keeps him outside her CQC range is in-fact the same exact logic for why Deidara could have been argued to be a poor match up for Sasuke before their duel; because once again up until that point Sasuke's best shit was all CQC oriented.

5) I'm sorry, but going off match up is far more likely to lead to unsupported arguments, unless the author specifically indicates match up is indeed an issue; such as Oil vs Konan's Paper or Gaara's Sand. Or if we only talk with in the context of very specific Jutsu/abilities rather than talking about a character holistically. Again you can see the above examples I've given as more than enough evidence of that  (though I could cite more if you'd like) and we can see the fact that match never that I can recall has ever decided the match in favor of the weaker shinobi.

6) I'm sorry, but if your going to sit here and say that all Nindaime has is the basics from the academy (which we don't even know what the academy basics in Kirigakure are) that is very disingenuous and there is no way to logically support that as thee most "likely" thing. I already explained multiple times how characters like Gaara factor into determining what is likely, if you choose to ignore that, it's really not my problem. Like wise I don't really feel like talking to someone who is just arguing for arguing sake, I.E. playing devil's advocate. 

7) The issue of not being able to prove additional Jutsu's relevancy is exactly my point as to why "feats" don't work well when talking about the characters holistically. As like you said we don't know what else a character has, and instead of just saying whelp we don't know so let's just ignore it, which I find extremely illogical when what they havne't shown could indeed be extremely relevant, it makes far more sense to try and find a more logical system; and this where we turn to portrayal.

8) Where was it stated that whole of Sungakure's military would only get in Gaara's way. None of those long-range Fan people or other sand manipulators could have helped him? There were no medics or shinobi with soldier pills? Etc.... That is an assertion that is very hard to swallow, and if we do swallow that assertion than that just means Sungakure's military is utter shit, and I have no clue how that makes Deidara look better.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 10, 2014)

For the Sannin vs Raikage thing, I'll just weigh in:

I believe A's pure speed and strength put him above base Jiraiya (though Jiraiya can counter if A sticks to his initial form), while Tsunade's and Orochimaru's regen makes A's Nintaijutsu rather unfeasible. Sage Mode Jiraiya is above A in every area but speed (physically stronger, Senjutsu empowered ninjutsu, sensing, more durable), Tsunade's Sozo Saisei or Byakugo makes her able to regen and tank A's blows, and Orochimaru's regen and Yamata no Jutsu puts him above A in every area but speed. 

And in regards to this battle, Orochimaru kind of beats A handily. He has Fūton: Daitoppa to strip off A's Raiton no Yoroi, Kuchiyoise: Rashomon to stop him in his tracks, Manda, the Yamata no Jutsu, and his various poisons which are _airborne_. All in all, he trumps A in every area but speed.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 1) It doesn't just reflect kindly on Sandaime's endurance, but also on his fighting prowess in general. On the flip side of this Ei has been hyped for his speed, by certain statements, but nothing that speaks towards his fighting prowess in general; outside of being a Raikage of course.



No, it really just reflects on his endurance and durability, which is what the hype was. Dodai said Sandaime was known for endurance, and then brought up the example of Raikage fighting fodder for 3 days straight. 

I don't see how that makes him better than Ei, who is hyped for his speed..something completely different. 



> 2)
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



So much wrong.

Sauce was never portrayed powerful for regen.  "On paper," Sasuke had the advantage, because of elemental superiority and flight himself to counter Deidara's.

Obito is not portrayed powerful for durability, He's strong because of Kamui. Take away Kamui and he loses to Base Kakashi. If Obito was portrayed stronger, how did Kakashi beat him? Why didn't he just pull out some new shit and stomp on Kakashi without Kamui?

Konan, who was paneled by Base Jiraiya, was a good match up for Obito. Combine match-up problems with prep, and that's why Obito came out of the Konan fight looking like he took an RPG rocket to the face. If you recall, she fucked him up before Paper Ocean, and then her bomb trap cost him one of his Sharingan. Obito is one of the most powerful characters in the series, certainly above any of the Sannin individually, and he nearly lost to Konan.

Raikage was never a bad match up for Naruto because Naruto has Gama Rinsho. But if you assume he wouldn't use it, Naruto only won because of plot. Kubuto used the 1-finger Nukite for no reason, considering the lesser Nukite's would suffice in killing or incapacitating Naruto. The real Sandaime may not make the same mistake as Naruto.



> 3)
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Sauce had Fire Ball Jutsu Pre-Manga, and that's a projectile Katon. He also had wings, so it's pretty reasonable to assume that...he can fucking fly. Even if you want to be stubborn and claim that he can't fly very well, it's still an advantage over those who cannot. Lastly, Sauce having Raiton over Deidara's Doton was a pretty big deal.




> 4) Deidara being a bad match for Tsunade because his flight keeps him outside her CQC range is in-fact the same exact logic for why Deidara could have been argued to be a poor match up for Sasuke before their duel; because once again up until that point Sasuke's best shit was all CQC oriented.



Tsunade doesn't have wings like Sauce or Raiton to defuse Deidara's only offensive option. 



> 5) I'm sorry, but going off match up is far more likely to lead to unsupported arguments, unless the author specifically indicates match up is indeed an issue; such as Oil vs Konan's Paper or Gaara's Sand. Or if we only talk with in the context of very specific Jutsu/abilities rather than talking about a character holistically. Again you can see the above examples I've given as more than enough evidence of that  (though I could cite more if you'd like) and we can see the fact that match never that I can recall has ever decided the match in favor of the weaker shinobi.



One Shinobi being "stronger" than another is a matter of _opinion_ (subjective impressiveness, like I said before), unless you have canon statements that essentially prove something is a certain way. 

Furthermore, I said match up is a huge _factor_ and thus should not be ignored. Danzo has a horrid match up against Itachi, because Itachi has a certain Jutsu to troll Danzo's best shit. Even if you think Itachi was "stronger" than Danzo anyway, Itachi still has a much easier time with Danzo than others on Itachi's level who can't auto-win against Izanagi.



> 6) I'm sorry, but if your going to sit here and say that all Nindaime has is the basics from the academy (which we don't even know what the academy basics in Kirigakure are) that is very disingenuous and there is no way to logically support that as thee most "likely" thing.



Gaara revealing new techniques is not grounds to say that it is "likely" that Nindaime Mizukage also has new techniques. Please do explain how that logically works. 

Like, are you suggesting that Trollkage could not be Kage level with a limited arsenal?



> 7) It makes far more sense to try and find a more logical system; and this where we turn to portrayal.



How is portrayal alone more logical..? 

_"Mu has Jinton to kill Orochimaru regardless of Oral Rebirth"_ is a perfectly logical, feat based argument for Mu. What are portrayal-only arguments for Orochimaru that trump that?


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## The Undying (Apr 10, 2014)

Turrin, if you're adopting stat totals as a valid perception of overall 'strength', I think you would have to accept that Deidara is slightly superior to Hebi Sasuke. The dialogue in that fight almost went out of its way to emphasize that Sasuke was a terrible match-up for Deidara because of his elemental advantage, chakra color bestowing Sharingan and flight capabilities. It wasn't so much that he was stronger, he just had all of the necessary components and tools to exploit Deidara's tricks and weaknesses.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2014)

The Undying said:


> Turrin, if you're adopting stat totals as a valid perception of overall 'strength', I think you would have to accept that Deidara is slightly superior to Hebi Sasuke. The dialogue in that fight almost went out of its way to emphasize that Sasuke was a terrible match-up for Deidara because of his elemental advantage, chakra color bestowing Sharingan and flight capabilities. It wasn't so much that he was stronger, he just had all of the necessary components and tools to exploit Deidara's tricks and weaknesses.


Sasuke's stat total was a 31.5 not counting CS/CS2 (& Summons). Personally think CS/CS2 (& Summons), means more than a .5 difference. The manga also tells us Sasuke would have won even without the elemental advantage. I'm not saying the gap was large Hebi-Sasuke is probably close to Deidara in the end, but still a bit better.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2014)

@Rocky

1) Fighting 10,000 Shinobi and drawing with Hachibi only hypes endurance; spare me the BS

2) Sasuke who had White-Snake-Regen, Oral Rebirth, and CS2 was not portrayed as having good durability 

3) I'm very aware of how Sasuke defeated Deidara, what your unwilling to address is that, this is something that only became apparent to us in hindsight. We didn't know Sasuke's Raiton affinity held elemental superiority over Deidara, before they fought. We didn't know that Sasuke could maintain sustained, long distance, flight with CS2, before they fought. Etc.... 

4) Obito loosing one arm is nothing and that was only due to him having to save Konan's life as he needed intel out of her. Without that condition and prep he would have decimated her. 

5) Sennin Modo Naruto could tank or repel any of the other variations of hell-bringer; it makes sense that he would opt for the power of 1-Finger, especially since there was no reason not to, as Kabuto didn't know Sennin Modo Naruto's strategy. 

6) But heck let's throw some other examples in here. Ei on paper seems like he'd be tough for Minato to defeat without suiciding; however that's not at all how Ei was portrayed in comparison to Minato when they fought. You also didn't address the Obito/Minato example. Than we could look at someone like Kidomaru who on paper seems like a terrible match up for a CQC oriented fighter like Neji, but he still lost. Than we could look at Gaara vs Dosu, on paper Dosu seems like a good match as his sound-based techs bypass Gaara's defense, but he was taken down by like fodder by Gaara. Than we could look at Hebi-Sasuke vs Itachi, on paper he looked like a good match, he had Sharingan and Uchiha blood to counter Genjutsu and had trained for years specifically to fight Itachi, yet at the end of the day Itachi was still beyond him. Need I go on?

7) Yet again we did not know Deidara techniques were Doton until he fought Sasuke. The Fire-Ball your talking about, is Katon-Grand-Fire-ball and it's a short range technique. Shitty flight, which only had the feats of him "flying" slightly off the ground for a brief instance against how Deidara's flight, really your going to sit here and tout that as some major advantage; again spare me the BS.

8) Again you refuse to actually address the issue that we only knew about these things in hindsight

9) Of course it's a matter of opinion whose stronger, unless we have DB-Stats, Statements, or directly see them fight. However the objective here is try and find what's "likely"; portrayal does that for us in a much more logical way than "feats"

10) You know what the difference is between the Danzo example your citing, and all this other match up is a major factors BS. In that instance the author directly told us that Izanami was specifically designed to defeat Izanagi. Now let's check what I said earlier about match ups: 

"I'm sorry, but going off match up is far more likely to lead to unsupported arguments, unless the author specifically indicates match up is indeed an issue; such as Oil vs Konan's Paper or Gaara's Sand."

11) I've already explained to you 5 times now how Gaara and other heavily featured characters still having more in their arsenals speak towards the likelihood of less featured characters having more techniques. I feel like your bordering on trolling to ask me to explain it for a 6th time.

12) Am I suggesting it's impossible that Troll couldn't be a middle-aged Kage with 4-Jutsu, no, I'm suggesting it's extremely unlikely that this is the case.

13) Let me try and put it to you this way. If your trying to win big at a casino, you want to play the games with the best odds. Now let's say there is a machine, where an arrow spins around a wheel, that is separated into 2-sections. 1 section takes up 80% of the area the arrow covers, and if the arrow lands in that area you win big; however if the arrow lands on the other 20% of the area, you loose you money. 

Now let's say it's the same machine, but this time you need to play 20 times, and the arrow needs to land on the 80% portion every time for you to win, and if at any time it lands on the 20% portion you automatically loose and must restart the process over again playing 20 more times, before you have the chance to make any cash.

The system with better odds of you earning money is obviously the first one. This is not because the chances of your arrow ending up in the right spot are any lower in the second system, but simply because you don't need to take 20 risks of playing, without seeing any money.

To apply this to "feats" vs "portrayal: Portrayal is like the first system, you take a single risk, that your understanding of the portrayal is correct. "Feats" is like the second system, where you take tons of risks depending on the match up. As every time you assume a character can't counter a certain Jutsu you are taking a risk that he/she doesn't have some other Jutsu in their arsenal that could, that he/she doesn't have some strategy that you didn't think off that could, that certain jutsu don't interacted in unexpected ways, etc.... So even if you write an absolutely brilliant and well supported argument (note - most people can't do that) for one specific aspect of a character comparison based on "feats", to the point where it seems probable that character-Y can't counter the Jutsu/ability, your still taking a risk. Now even if you do said brilliant argumentation when comparing every aspect of the two characters, and in each case it seems probable that character-Y can't counter the Jutsu/abilities of character-x (again I must stress even the best posters on this forum would have a hard time making such a compelling case like this in every instance), you are still going to be taking a bunch of risks by the time your done. 

15) I really don't feel like going into another side discussion about Mu vs Orochimaru. Or compiling all of Orochimaru's hype that indicates he is above Mu; so let's leave that out, as I think i've addressed the essence of the point your trying to make above.

Edit: Actually Let's take the Orochimaru vs Mu thing as an example of what i'm talking about:

- Orochimaru doesn't have anything that can block Jinton; that's 1 spin of the wheel
- Orochimaru doesn't have anything that will enable him to evade Jinton; that's a 2nd spin of the wheel
- Orochimaru doesn't have any other method that would allow him to escape Jinton (Escaping LOS, Feint, Etc...); that's a 3rd spin of the wheel
- Orochimaru doesn't have anything that could interrupt Mu's casting of Jinton; that's a 4th spin of the wheel
- Orochimaru doesn't end Mu before he pulls out Jinton; that's a 5th spin of the wheel

That is just 5-Risks and that is only when discussing one aspect of an Orochimaru vs Mu comparison; Jinton. If we went on to examine other aspects of the match, the amount of risks would keep piling up


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2014)

These are getting too long, so let's address the main issue.



> However the objective here is try and find what's "likely"; portrayal does that for us in a much more logical way than "feats."



Minato vs. Hiruzen, who wins? Tobirama vs. Sandaime Raikage, who wins? Pain vs. Mu & Trollkage, who wins? Tsunade vs. Orochimaru, who wins?

These are just some random examples that came into my head. In the above match ups, I wouldn't be able to tell who is "portrayed" stronger, it would literally just be a matter of opinion. Going off of portrayal only, in most threads, there would be no way to properly determine who is even stronger in the first place.

Also, I've said this before and I'll say it again; portrayal in the Manga does not consider the fan-made stipulations we create here in the Battledome. That's another problem. Say I make a thread that has Mifune fighting Mei at 5m. There's no way Kishimoto would ever have Mifune stomp a Kage by himself, but if he was forced to draw a fight between the two at 5m, three things could happen.

1.) Mei get's sliced in half.

2.) Kishi _shits_ all over Mifune's hype of stopping Ninjutsu when Mei, who uses seals for like everything, randomly pulls out seal-less Jutsu.

3.) Kishi _*massively shits*_ all over Mifune's character in general when Mei pulls out a Kunai and keeps up with the best Samurai ever in CQC.

Which is most likely?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm pretty sure Mei used a water dragon without seals against Madara here _(1)_.

So my vote is for answer # 2.


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2014)

They are off panel. At least, I thought they were because Kishi doesn't always take up panel space to illustrate the seals. Even in the scan you linked, Madara's seals for Wildfire Extermination are not drawn. I know those two Suiton techniques normally require them, and for what it's worth, I think the anime backs that.

Regardless, there are other examples besides Mei.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 11, 2014)

I might've thought that too if we didn't see that her arms are extended out on opposite sides of her body when she thinks to cast the second Suiton.

I'd think that logically disallows seals, but if it doesn't then we need an option 4 for "Kishi trolls and let's Mei form seals without needing to bring her hands up".

I haven't watched the anime in forever, though, so idk what to say about that.

But yes, there are other examples. Somewhere.


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I might've thought that too if we didn't see that her arms are extended out on opposite sides of her body when she thinks to cast the second Suiton.



Her arms are extended while spraying the dragon, but that doesn't mean she didn't form seals before she took that stance.

Observe:



Itachi's hands are spread before he goes to spray Gōkakyū from his mouth. This does not indicate that he didn't form seals for Gōkakyū....



Even if you pick option 2, that's basically saying that Kishi trolled us with Mifune's useless abilities, because shinobi can just use ninjutsu without seals to lol at all of his "hype."


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## FlamingRain (Apr 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Her arms are extended while spraying the dragon, but that doesn't mean she didn't form seals before she took that stance.



If she had would those have not been the seals for her previous Jutsu which she was just coming off of casting? Or do ninja have the ability to layer required seals for separate Jutsu on top of each other? (serious question: no sarcasm)



> Even if you pick option 2, that's basically saying that Kishi trolled us with Mifune's useless abilities, because shinobi can just use ninjutsu without seals to lol at all of his "hype."



I'm fully aware of what it's saying.


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> If she had would those have not been the seals for her previous Jutsu which she was just coming off of casting? Or do ninja have the ability to layer required seals for separate Jutsu on top of each other? (serious question: no sarcasm)



I'll just explain what I believe happened in steps:

1.) She forms seals for Water Pillar while Tsunade is punching Madara.

2.) She sprays Water Pillar at Madara _while_ forming seals for Water Dragon.

3.) She jumps into the air and sprays Water Dragon.

So I guess the answer to your question is yes, they can form seals for a second technique while performing another (assuming they formed seals for the first one). You know, like Darui.

There's also an alternative option where she somehow morphs water pillar into water dragon, but I only say that because she appears to have formed the two techniques off a one stream of water. That isn't really supported though, just an observation of the art. I believe what actually happened is what I stated above.


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Minato vs. Hiruzen, who wins? Tobirama vs. Sandaime Raikage, who wins? Pain vs. Mu & Trollkage, who wins? Tsunade vs. Orochimaru, who wins?


Your talking about matchs that are just tough to call in general. I could discuss which I feel is a bit more likely to win, but it would require a detailed post for most of them. For Hiruzen vs Minato it could be simple if we went of Hiruzen hype (i'm assuming your talking "Prime" Hiruzen). The fact that we have hard matches that are difficult to decided is unavoidable. 



> Also, I've said this before and I'll say it again; portrayal in the Manga does not consider the fan-made stipulations we create here in the Battledome. That's another problem. Say I make a thread that has Mifune fighting Mei at 5m. There's no way Kishimoto would ever have Mifune stomp a Kage by himself, but if he was forced to draw a fight between the two at 5m, three things could happen


I'm not sure Kishi wouldn't have Mifune defeat a Kage. Mifune's strength is extremely ill-defined at the moment.



> 2.) Kishi shits all over Mifune's hype of stopping Ninjutsu when Mei, who uses seals for like everything, randomly pulls out seal-less Jutsu.


I don't see why Mei using sealess Jutsu would de-hype Mifune. I mean lots of Ninja can use sealless Jutsu and in-fact Kishin plays around with the idea of whether a Jutsu requires seals or not a-lot of times. Mifune's hype was never going to translate to him being able to stop a ninja from casting any Jutsu at all, but rather that he can stop quite a few ninjutsu. His hype also comes from his IAI technique in general. But again Mifune is one of the most ill defined characters in the entire series in terms of both portrayal and even "feats"



> Kishi massively shits all over Mifune's character in general when Mei pulls out a Kunai and keeps up with the best Samurai ever in CQC.


I don't think a Kage blocking Mifune's attacks shit on him at all. It completely depends on how much of his strength he's using, as in the Hanzo fight it seemed as if the power of his attacks varied. His standard slash was obviously beneath his IAI slashes, and within his IAI slashes there seemed to be better ones; for example Mifune's initial IAI slash to stop Hanzo from using Hand-Seals was blocked just fine by Hanzo's scythe, but than later Mifune cuts through Hanzo's scythe with one of his IAI slashes. 

If Mifune just does a regular slash and Mei blocks it I really see nothing wrong with that. Like wise even if Mifune used an IAI slash, Mei's speed is poorly defined, so it's possible she could react in time to block. Though obviously blocking Mifune's best IAI slash would be a bit trollish.


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## tracytracy22 (Apr 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There's also an alternative option where she somehow morphs water pillar into water dragon, but I only say that because she appears to have formed the two techniques off a one stream of water. That isn't really supported though, just an observation of the art. I believe what actually happened is what I stated above.



This is what I believe happened. But there have been a few instances where I believe she didnt use seals - one instance she definitely didnt was against zetsu (bottom right corner).

Link removed

And also here (looks like the same jutsu used against zetsu).

Link removed

And here too. To me it looks like she created a curtain of lava.

Link removed


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Your talking about matchs that are just tough to call in general. I could discuss which I feel is a bit more likely to win, but it would require a detailed post for most of them. For Hiruzen vs Minato it could be simple if we went of Hiruzen hype (i'm assuming your talking "Prime" Hiruzen). The fact that we have hard matches that are difficult to decided is unavoidable.



You aren't likely to find out who would win from portrayal alone because it would be nearly impossible to determine which of those characters Kishi deems stronger.  



> I'm not sure Kishi wouldn't have Mifune defeat a Kage. Mifune's strength is extremely ill-defined at the moment.



Beat? Sure. Stomp, like I said? No, and from 5m, super speed-hyped Mifune should be able to stomp a person that uses seals for their best shit. 



> I don't see why Mei using sealess Jutsu would de-hype Mifune. I mean lots of Ninja can use sealless Jutsu and in-fact Kishin plays around with the idea of whether a Jutsu requires seals or not a-lot of times. Mifune's hype was never going to translate to him being able to stop a ninja from casting any Jutsu at all, but rather that he can stop quite a few ninjutsu. His hype also comes from his IAI technique in general. But again Mifune is one of the most ill defined characters in the entire series in terms of both portrayal and even "feats"



If Kishi were to draw somebody like Mei, who typically uses seals, randomly pulling out seal-less Jutsu, that reduces Mifune's portrayal to laughable. I could just argue that "every Kage probably has powerful seal-less Jutsu" and Mifune's "stopping Ninjutsu" hype would basically be pointless.



> I don't think a Kage blocking Mifune's attacks shit on him at all. It completely depends on how much of his strength he's using, as in the Hanzo fight it seemed as if the power of his attacks varied. His standard slash was obviously beneath his IAI slashes, and within his IAI slashes there seemed to be better ones; for example Mifune's initial IAI slash to stop Hanzo from using Hand-Seals was blocked just fine by Hanzo's scythe, but than later Mifune cuts through Hanzo's scythe with one of his IAI slashes.
> 
> If Mifune just does a regular slash and Mei blocks it I really see nothing wrong with that. Like wise even if Mifune used an IAI slash, Mei's speed is poorly defined, so it's possible she could react in time to block. Though obviously blocking Mifune's best IAI slash would be a bit trollish.



Mei blocking an initial slash would be fine imo (though she'd need to pull out a Kunai as she lacks a weapon unlike Hanzo). But then Mifune can just kill her while they're in CQC with like no difficulty. Mifune's like a legendary samurai, while Mei is not known for Kunai Kenjutsu...


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You aren't likely to find out who would win from portrayal alone because it would be nearly impossible to determine which of those characters Kishi deems stronger.


In the case where we can't figure out who would win by portrayal, I'd rather just say we don't know or we need more info. Than trying to force a conclusion based on "feats". 



> Beat? Sure. Stomp, like I said? No, and from 5m, super speed-hyped Mifune should be able to stomp a person that uses seals for their best shit.


And that's just "feats" nonsense. Kishi avoided an exhausted Sauke being one-shotted at close range against Mifune. So I don't see Kishi having that happen to Mei. Now how he avoids that conclusion we don't know.

Other than that you'd have to define "stomp" for me.



> If Kishi were to draw somebody like Mei, who typically uses seals, randomly pulling out seal-less Jutsu, that reduces Mifune's portrayal to laughable. I could just argue that "every Kage probably has powerful seal-less Jutsu" and Mifune's "stopping Ninjutsu" hype would basically be pointless.


I'm sorry, but this makes zero sense to me. Even if every Ninja had 1 Jutsu that doesn't require seals, the fact that Mifune could still stop many of their other Jutsu which due require seals limiting their arsenal extensively and thus Mifune's technique would still be extremely valuable. And we not talking about every Ninja here, but rather a Kage.



> Mei blocking an initial slash would be fine imo (though she'd need to pull out a Kunai as she lacks a weapon unlike Hanzo). But then Mifune can just kill her while they're in CQC with like no difficulty. Mifune's like a legendary samurai, while Mei is not known for Kunai Kenjutsu...


If your saying it would play out like Mifune vs Hanzo, I see that as more a mid diff match, where Mifune eventually won by using on of his best IAI techniques. In which case I don't see much wrong with that, in terms of it being possible,  because again Mifune is extremely ill defined. 


Again the issue here is your pitting an ill defined character against someone else, rather than their being an issue of match up or conditions. Mifune only fight was against Rusty-Hanzo, who is also ill defined; and on top of that it is one of the few matchs where Kishi did indicate match up was an issue; Mifune's poison resistance. The meaning we put into Mifune's accomplishment there depends on how Kishi views Rusty-Hanzo which is very unclear considering Kishi spent most of the time talking about Prime-Hanzo, and the only thing we got about Rusty-Hanzo is that he was defeated by Pain, which doesn't say much as many even exceptionally skilled Kages would be defeated by Pain. Than we could look at Mifune being a division commander, but those ranged in strength from Darui to Kakashi "level", so that doesn't tell us much ether. Than we could look at him being leader of the Samurai, but besides the fact that we are told the Samurai nation is strong, the story hasn't focused much on other Samurai that we could compare Mifune too. Mifune's role as moderate of the Gokage summit can be interpreted any number of ways.


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## Lawrence777 (Apr 12, 2014)

I don't believe that Mei or any of these shinobi can use ninjutsu without handseals. If you have mastery you can reduce the amount of handseals necessary and make it seems as if no handseals were used. 

An example of this would Tobirama being stated to be able to do that lengthy wave arc water jutsu in 1 seal. 

So you can reduce them, and not everyone who uses handseals would fall to Mifune necessarily. But they still use seals IMO. Recall, Mei couldn't complete handseals before Madara's katon attack would reach her.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't believe that Mei or any of these shinobi can use ninjutsu without handseals. If you have mastery you can reduce the amount of handseals necessary and make it seems as if no handseals were used.
> 
> An example of this would Tobirama being stated to be able to do that lengthy wave arc water jutsu in 1 seal.
> 
> So you can reduce them, and not everyone who uses handseals would fall to Mifune necessarily. But they still use seals IMO. Recall, Mei couldn't complete handseals before Madara's katon attack would reach her.



Yet we did see Mei using Yoton without seals. I really think it depends on the Jutsu; Suiton Ninjutsu has always been highlighted as a taking a vast number of seals for some reason; than the masters can push down the number.  While on the other hand it doesn't seem like chakra flows require seals at all. And so on.w


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2014)

@Turrin

1.) Eh, here's my take on that. If we come to the conclusion that two characters are equally portrayed, but one has the apparent match up advantage, then why would Kishimoto give the disadvantaged character a way around it? Remember, Kishi doesn't have a decide the outcome for PLOT purposes (lolIzanami), and he would be fine with the character who wins by feats winning regardless. Without the storyline present, why do you find it likely that Kishi would play around apparent match up advantages by giving characters new Justus? 

2.) Nah man that's all Mifune's hype. If he's hyped fast enough to be capable of stopping handseals, the why should someone like Mei be able to deal with that at 5m? Sauce is different and you know it . He's highly proficient in Kenjutsu just like Mifune. 

3.) If every Kage had a powerful seal-less Justus capable of dealing with Mifune, then I don't see the purpose in Mifune's hype. Ninjustu in general is supposed to be worthless against him. That's what happened with Hanzo. Seal-less Just are supposed to be special. 

4.) Mei is worse in Kenjutsu than Hanzo is, no Mifune shouldn't struggle nearly as much with her.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> @Turrin
> 1.) Eh, here's my take on that. If we come to the conclusion that two characters are equally portrayed, but one has the apparent match up advantage, then why would Kishimoto give the disadvantaged character a way around it?


I agree with this statement, but only if the author has indicated in the Manga-Cannon, DB, or other supplementary material that there is indeed an issue of match up. When I disagree with this assertion, is when fans assert an issue of match up based on "feats"; the reason I disagree with is for all the myriad of examples I already cited to you where "on paper" it seems as there is an issue of match up, but than in practice this is not the case. That on-top of the fact that the manga heavily implies in most instances that characters have more in their arsenal we as readers have not seen.



> Remember, Kishi doesn't have a decide the outcome for PLOT purposes (lolIzanami), and he would be fine with the character who wins by feats winning regardless. Without the storyline present, why do you find it likely that Kishi would play around apparent match up advantages by giving characters new Justus?


Here's the issue. Your making the assumption that Kishi is "giving characters new Jutsu"; therefore implying that Kishi is just making up new abilities/Jutsu for a character to win. However in reality Kishi probably had a general idea of the what a certain character is capable of when he first created that character. Let's take Torune for example; he only showed one Jutsu [Nano Bugs]. When Kishi created his character he might have seen Torune as someone who just had one gimmicky Jutsu, though more likely Kishi envision Torune as a highly skilled Jonin, Anbu-Root member, and an Aburame Clan member. Torune pulling out any ability that is connected to these titles, would not be simply Kishi making it up on the spot; it would rather make sense with how Kishi conceptualized Torune in the fist place. Simply put Kishi could have envisioned a character to have additional abilities, which means in reality your question should be posed this way:

Even without the story line present, why do you find it likely that Kishi would strictly dictate the match by the character's arsenal's he's shown so far, rather than how he envisions the character's entire arsenals? 

I mean it's like if you took Jiriaya from his introduction chapter, where all he showed was summoning Mid-Sized Toads and than put him up against Zabuza. Than told Kishi, just draw this fight as a one-shot outside of the manga. Do you really expect Kishi to only stick to shown "feats" and have Jiriaya get murder stomped by Zabuza, because all he had shown in that introductory chapter is summoning mid-sized toads? Or do you think Kishi would have Jiriaya pull out Jutsu we haven't seen before, but he considered within Jiriaya's reach all along. 



> Nah man that's all Mifune's hype. If he's hyped fast enough to be capable of stopping handseals, the why should someone like Mei be able to deal with that at 5m?


Mei being able to deal with something and Mei not getting stomped are two different things. Mei could loose to Mifune's IAI Techniques, because while she can still use a few Jutsu w/o seals Mifune is taking away to much of her entire arsenal for her to win the duel; thus she ultimatley wouldn't have been able to handle Mifune, but she could avoid getting stomped.



> Sauce is different and you know it . He's highly proficient in Kenjutsu just like Mifune.


- Really have not seen anything indicating that Sasuke's Kenjutsu proficiency is anywhere near a master Samurai's
- Sasuke was exhausted. I have zero issue with Mei at her best performing as well as Sasuke did at his worst.



> If every Kage had a powerful seal-less Justus capable of dealing with Mifune, then I don't see the purpose in Mifune's hype. Ninjustu in general is supposed to be worthless against him. That's what happened with Hanzo. Seal-less Just are supposed to be special.


- Once again he'd still be cutting off most of their arsenals. 

- Mifune's hype of Ninjutsu being worthless against him, would always ring hollow, if we take a literalist interpretation of it. There were tons of characters back in even Part I that demonstrated seal-less techniques, so the idea that Mifune can stop all Ninjutsu this way is a silly standard to believe Kishi is holding him to; in-fact if that were the case than Mifune would be only weaker than Juubi-Jins lol. In reality Mifune's hype was always suppose to be interpreted as him being able to stop  many Ninjutsu techniques from happening in battle, though not all. It just sounds cooler to make his rep be that Ninjutsu doesn't work on him, rather than Ninjutsu doesn't work on him except for this technique, that technique, etc....



> Mei is worse in Kenjutsu than Hanzo is, no Mifune shouldn't struggle nearly as much with her.


I was just speaking towards what I thought you were saying.


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## Shinryu (Apr 12, 2014)

Can A break Sanju Rashoumon?


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## tracytracy22 (Apr 12, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> *I don't believe that Mei or any of these shinobi can use ninjutsu without handseals. *



But that doesnt make any sense.

*then why this?  *

Mei clearly uses a yoton (albeit on a smaller scaller) in the above scan without seals...

*then why this?  *

Here is another example...this you cannot deny. Orochimaru had his arms sealed by the third and therefore could not make hand signs but yet he could still perform ninjutsu. Triple Rashomon is yet another example.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 13, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Can A break Sanju Rashoumon?



I am not sure but he can always choose to walk around it.


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## Rocky (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I agree with this statement, but only if the author has indicated in the Manga-Cannon, DB, or other supplementary material that there is indeed an issue of match up. When I disagree with this assertion, is when fans assert an issue of match up based on "feats"; the reason I disagree with is for all the myriad of examples I already cited to you where "on paper" it seems as there is an issue of match up, but than in practice this is not the case. That on-top of the fact that the manga heavily implies in most instances that characters have more in their arsenal we as readers have not seen.



I think you're looking too far into it. Let me give you an example of match up being an issue.

Take Itachi. Let's say he's up against another character (Character X), but author portrayal is unclear and we can't really determine a winner. In that case, _you_ said that we should just leave it at "it could go either way." _However_, suppose Character X has some Genjutsu immunity.* While Itachi may still have ways to defeat Character X*, Genjutsu is still a _huge_ part of Itachi's arsenal, so Character X would have an "on paper" mach up advantage just by virtue of being immune. That alone doesn't determine a winner for certain, but imho, that definitely factors into likelihood. 




> I mean it's like if you took Jiriaya from his introduction chapter, where all he showed was summoning Mid-Sized Toads and than put him up against Zabuza. Than told Kishi, just draw this fight as a one-shot outside of the manga. Do you really expect Kishi to only stick to shown "feats" and have Jiriaya get murder stomped by Zabuza, because all he had shown in that introductory chapter is summoning mid-sized toads? Or do you think Kishi would have Jiriaya pull out Jutsu we haven't seen before, but he considered within Jiriaya's reach all along.



Jiraiya is obviously stronger than Zabuza, so I think Intro Chapter Jiraiya would indeed reveal new Jutsu.

If we're talking about two closely portrayed characters that have already had a feature battle though, I don't think he would necessarily introduce anything new.

If Kishi had to draw a fight between Itachi & Jiraiya tomorrow, I would expect to see nothing more than what they've shown, because both have already had a chance to show their most potent Jutsu. Granted, we may see some little stuff (new frog from J-man, new Katon from Itachi, etc.), but nothing significant that would swing the fight in a different direction.

If Kishi had to draw a fight between Sakumo & Hiruzen, I would obviously expect to see more than academy level jutsu from Sakumo, and I would expect a power inflated, Part 2 feature showing from Hiruzen. So in that case, almost entirely new shit.

So again, it really is case by case, and that's how it should be.




> Mei being able to deal with something and Mei not getting stomped are two different things. Mei could loose to Mifune's IAI Techniques, because while she can still use a few Jutsu w/o seals Mifune is taking away to much of her entire arsenal for her to win the duel; thus she ultimatley wouldn't have been able to handle Mifune, but she could avoid getting stomped.



How do you think the fight would go down (from 5 meters) if Kishi had to write one with such a condition (remember, no asspull either).



> - Really have not seen anything indicating that Sasuke's Kenjutsu proficiency is anywhere near a master Samurai's
> - Sasuke was exhausted. I have zero issue with Mei at her best performing as well as Sasuke did at his worst.



Sauce has the Sharingan to even the odds between him and Mifune, and all Sasuke did was block one strike anyway, which I said Mei could do.

I don't agree with Mei _*ever*_ performing better than Sauce in Kenjutsu though lololol. He may have been fatigued, but he wasn't THAT tired. Not to the point where Mizukage w/ Kunai can keep up with his 3-Tome Katana Kenjutsu.




> - Mifune's hype of Ninjutsu being worthless against him, would always ring hollow, if we take a literalist interpretation of it. There were tons of characters back in even Part I that demonstrated seal-less techniques, so the idea that Mifune can stop all Ninjutsu this way is a silly standard to believe Kishi is holding him to; in-fact if that were the case than Mifune would be only weaker than Juubi-Jins lol. In reality Mifune's hype was always suppose to be interpreted as him being able to stop  many Ninjutsu techniques from happening in battle, though not all. It just sounds cooler to make his rep be that Ninjutsu doesn't work on him, rather than Ninjutsu doesn't work on him except for this technique, that technique, etc....



That's true, but I generally hold the hype in high regard (because that's all he really has). I know that Shinobi should be able to get Ninjutsu off in some cases, but I don't think Mei from 5m is one of those cases.

Actually, I think Mifune should be competent enough to beat any non-CQC oriented Kage-level (excluding top tiers) from that close. The guy is supposed to be fast as shit with a very useful style for blitzing & quick killing.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I think you're looking too far into it. Let me give you an example of match up being an issue.
> 
> Take Itachi. Let's say he's up against another character (Character X), but author portrayal is unclear and we can't really determine a winner. In that case, _you_ said that we should just leave it at "it could go either way." _However_, suppose Character X has some Genjutsu immunity.* While Itachi may still have ways to defeat Character X*, Genjutsu is still a _huge_ part of Itachi's arsenal, so Character X would have an "on paper" mach up advantage just by virtue of being immune. That alone doesn't determine a winner for certain, but imho, that definitely factors into likelihood.


But again your talking about a scenario where the author outright would be indicating match up is an issue. In the instance your talking about Kishi would have to have it stated that said character is immune to Genjutsu as there is no way we are going to directly see a character go up against every type of Genjutsu technique in the manga and prove his immunity to all the types. So again I have no issue with an instance such as this.

However if were just going to conclude that a character is immune to Itachi's Genjutsu, based on "feats" or insert theory here, that's when problems arise. Look at Kabuto; on paper he seemed to be immune to all of Itachi's Genjutsu, but than Itachi proved that wrong with Izanami. 



> If we're talking about two closely portrayed characters that have already had a feature battle though, I don't think he would necessarily introduce anything new.


Than what you need to define for me is what is a "featured battle". 



> How do you think the fight would go down (from 5 meters) if Kishi had to write one with such a condition (remember, no asspull either).


Like I said I don't know because Mifune is ill defined strength wise.



> Sauce has the Sharingan to even the odds between him and Mifune, and all Sasuke did was block one strike anyway, which I said Mei could do.


Well than why are you arguing this point, as that was my sole point that I wouldn't be surprised to see Mei block one of Mifune's strikes if exhausted Sasuke was able to.



> don't agree with Mei ever performing better than Sauce in Kenjutsu though lololol. He may have been fatigued, but he wasn't THAT tired. Not to the point where Mizukage w/ Kunai can keep up with his 3-Tome Katana Kenjutsu.


Can you at least admit that due to fighting several ninja before that clash and spamming MS, we can't tell for certain whether Sasuke was at his best there?




> That's true, but I generally hold the hype in high regard (because that's all he really has). I know that Shinobi should be able to get Ninjutsu off in some cases, but I don't think Mei from 5m is one of those cases.


Again it's hard to say when Mifune's strength is extremely ill defined. 



> Actually, I think Mifune should be competent enough to beat any non-CQC oriented Kage-level (excluding top tiers) from that close. The guy is supposed to be fast as shit with a very useful style for blitzing & quick killing.


Maybe, but I don't see how we can say that with any type of certainty. Mifune has had two clashes in the entire manga. He attacked Sasuke who blocked his attack though was outmaneuvered a bit with Mifune slamming him into the wall; that's one clash. Than he clashed with Hanzo and using some of his better shit overcame Hanzo in CQC; that's the second clash. However in both instances this is very ill defined;

- Sasuke was exhausted and Mifune didn't seem to use his best shit
- Rusty Hanzo's strength besides being weaker than Pain is also ill defined

So how do we quantify that. Kishi in his mind could believe Sasuke's Three Tome speed was completely unaffected by exhausting/MS-spam or he could think Sasuke was significantly worn out. It's hard to say whether Kishi even thinks Sasuke's speed increased from his 4.5 in DBIII at that point. So Mifune out maneuvering Sasuke in that instance can be viewed anywhere from him having the edge over a guy with a 5 in speed and Three Tome Prediction; to him merely having the edge over someone whose extremely exhausted and vision is a bit f'd up from MS-spam. 

Than in Hanzo's case, we have no clue how strong Rusty Hanzo is suppose to be seen. Mifune besting him ranges anywhere from him besting a skilled jonin class shinobi, to someone who may be able to match most Kages.

So again how do we know. That's the issue with Mifune and Rusty-Hanzo. Mifune is mostly defined by his performance against Rusty-Hanzo who is in turn mostly defined by his performance against Mifune. It's circular and doesn't provide use any real answers.


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## Rocky (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> However if were just going to conclude that a character is immune to Itachi's Genjutsu, based on "feats" or insert theory here, that's when problems arise. Look at Kabuto; on paper he seemed to be immune to all of Itachi's Genjutsu, but than Itachi proved that wrong with Izanami.



Kabuto was a good match up for Itachi, but Itachi had dat plot shield and you know it.  Izanami was way too convenient.  Even with it though, Itachi would've lost had it not been for Edo immortality and Sauce.

Though in general, most match-up issues come from the Manga itself, yes.



> Than what you need to define for me is what is a "featured battle".



Naruto vs. Pain would be a feature battle for both characters. A maximum effort, all out match. You could say that Jiraiya vs Pain was a feature match for Jiraiya. We saw the epitome of J-man's power in that fight. Not to say that we saw everything he had to offer, but we saw his best.



> Well than why are you arguing this point, as that was my sole point that I wouldn't be surprised to see Mei block one of Mifune's strikes if exhausted Sasuke was able to.



She would block, yeah. But from there it would be Mei w/ Kunai vs. Legendary Samurai in CQC.

Mifune dismantles. 



> Can you at least admit that due to fighting several ninja before that clash and spamming MS, we can't tell for certain whether Sasuke was at his best there?



Of course.



> So again how do we know. That's the issue with Mifune and Rusty-Hanzo. Mifune is mostly defined by his performance against Rusty-Hanzo who is in turn mostly defined by his performance against Mifune. It's circular and doesn't provide use any real answers.



I think Mifune had a good enough position in the War and among the Samurai, as well as good enough combat hype to _compete_ with the Kage, but not enough strength to outright win under fair circumstances. I definitely think Kishimoto has held the five Kage (and past Kage) in higher regard, but if you skew the stipulations in favor of Mifune, I believe he would change his mind for that particular situation.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kabuto was a good match up for Itachi, but Itachi had dat plot shield and you know it.  Izanami was way too convenient.  Even with it though, Itachi would've lost had it not been for Edo immortality and Sauce.


I think Izanami was obvious the moment that Izanagi was introduced, to anyone aware of Shinto mythology. 



> Though in general, most match-up issues come from the Manga itself, yes


Just to clarify I mean that it has to be stated or directly shown. The assertions of match up based on what each character has shown so far is what I take issue with.



> Naruto vs. Pain would be a feature battle for both characters. A maximum effort, all out match.


Naruto still showed more feats after the Pain duel, that weren't due to an additional power up; so that example doesn't work



> You could say that Jiraiya vs Pain was a feature match for Jiraiya. We saw the epitome of J-man's power in that fight. Not to say that we saw everything he had to offer, but we saw his bes


Yet his summons continued to accumulate "feats" which have significance in "feats" based discussions. So again I don't see that example working in your favor ether.



> She would block, yeah. But from there it would be Mei w/ Kunai vs. Legendary Samurai in CQC.
> 
> Mifune dismantles.


Again my only response to this will continue to be IDK.



> I think Mifune had a good enough position in the War and among the Samurai, as well as good enough combat hype to compete with the Kage, but not enough strength to outright win under fair circumstances. I definitely think Kishimoto has held the five Kage (and past Kage) in higher regard, but if you skew the stipulations in favor of Mifune, I believe he would change his mind for that particular situation.


Can you give me any example of where Kishi or a character states starting-distance effected the winner of a match?


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## Jagger (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I think Izanami was obvious the moment that Izanagi was introduced, to anyone aware of Shinto mythology.


The problem isn't the jutsu itself since Kishi loves the Shinto mythology and usually uses references from there to name their jutsu or the background of said jutsu. What bothers a lot of people (including me) is how convenient the jutsu was.

A genjutsu specifically made to counter the genjutsu counter someone made to counter Itachi's genjutsu? That's just way too much in one place.  Kabuto was the perfect counter for both of the Uchiha brothers ad Kishi pulls out a technique just for that exact moment.


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## Rocky (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I think Izanami was obvious the moment that Izanagi was introduced, to anyone aware of Shinto mythology.



The existence of the Jutsu wasn't convenient, the mechanics were...  



> Just to clarify I mean that it has to be stated or directly shown. The assertions of match up based on what each character has shown so far is what I take issue with.



You also need the ability to read between the lines. 

Orochimaru was never _stated_ to have an issue with Dust Release in particular, but based on what we know of it, it's safe to say that a Jinton practitioner may have the edge on somebody who uses regeneration as such a major part of their arsenal.



> Naruto still showed more feats after the Pain duel, that weren't due to an additional power up; so that example doesn't work



Such as...?



> Yet his summons continued to accumulate "feats" which have significance in "feats" based discussions. So again I don't see that example working in your favor ether.



Such as...?

And for this point and the above one, would these new feats ever truly change the outcome of a match?



> Again my only response to this will continue to be IDK.



You should just concede the point unless you are honestly going to sit here and tell me that Mei has a good shot at keeping up with Mifune in swordplay. 



> Can you give me any example of where Kishi or a character states starting-distance effected the winner of a match?



"You also need the ability to read between the lines."

You have a functional brain, so please don't play this game. You know that the outcome of Tsunade or Raikage vs. Onoki at 1 meter would be different than it would be at 100. Do we really need Kishi to spoon feed us?


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