# Dr. Doom vs Luke



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 4, 2012)

no jelly thread, honest 

I didn't realise Dr. Doom's armor and tech-hax were THIS powerful -  


Doom doesn't get any stolen cosmic powers, but full feats for his own armor

no restrictions, no prep

standart OBD rules



How's it go ?


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## Huey Freeman (Feb 4, 2012)

Doom wins for being a better character 

But seeing Doom is resistant to telepathy he fights for 1 min get bored have pity on luke and let him wins.


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## TehChron (Feb 4, 2012)

Doom is resistant to Telepathy, Luke goes in for the kill and Doom just decides to Ovian Mind Swaps him and experiment with this previously unknown cosmic source of energy.

Luke could potentially avoid this with Precog, though...Until Doom locks him down with the Crimson Bands. Into an Ovian Mindswap.

It's pretty ugly for old Luke, actually.


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 4, 2012)

I'm gonna be honest the people Doom has used the Ovian Mindswap on aren't that impressive compared to Luke.
one was a regular human, then he used it on Daredevil,Zarko, and then finally he used it on the FF. Now unless your trying to say that the technique is unblockable(which is a NLF) I don't see how Luke would have that much trouble throwing it off.

Doom can win but relying on telapathy to win a fight is bad news bears. His best tactic is sticking to blowing shit up and hurting Luke with large AOE's.


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## Gone (Feb 4, 2012)

Doom wins by virtue of being Doom.

Oh and by being resistant to mind fuckery. But mostly because he's Doom.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 4, 2012)

how does Doom win ? energy blasts ? Or something else ?


Does Luke have any hax that would work here ? Fold-space no ? Doom can teleport ? TK ? light-saber to the face ? Shields too strong ?  

Emerald Lightning ?


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## masamune1 (Feb 4, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> how does Doom win ? physical blasts ? Or something else ?
> 
> 
> Does Luke have any hax that would work here ? Fold-space no ? Doom can teleport ? TK ? light-saber to the face ? Shields too strong ?
> ...



Force-field shields, energy blasts, power armour superior to Iron Man's,  magical powers, mind-swapping powers,arguably superior combat skills, flight, and I think he _can_ teleport, along with a bunch of other gadgets in his suit.

And lets not get into the debate if he's more powerful than a universe-killing reality warper.

Thats how he wins.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 4, 2012)

hax 

why are the F4 still around ? plotkai ?


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## masamune1 (Feb 4, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> hax
> 
> why are the F4 still around ? plotkai ?



Reed Richards is even more hax than Doom. Doom is held back by his arrogance, but without that he just wouldn't be Doom.

Actually, Sue, Johnny and Ben are pretty damn hax in their own right. They would all stand a good chance against Luke.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 4, 2012)

> Reed Richards is even more hax than Doom


yeah, but he doesn't wear them all on himself in armor-form all the time, does he ?


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

If current Doom in his regular powerset isn't above Tony then without prep he's not stomping Luke. Also I would like some actual citations from objective posters on Doom being "completely" immune to telepathy.

Luke was more then a match for current Tony.


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## Es (Feb 4, 2012)

Doom blocked having his mind read from Emma Frost once


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

That's not the same as mental domination though, and was that consistent with his current showings?


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## Es (Feb 4, 2012)

I do not know really, I was just throwing it out


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## Banhammer (Feb 4, 2012)

I take it you're not reading Hicman's Future Foundation and Fantastic Four


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

read up to #579


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## Gone (Feb 4, 2012)

I always thought Dooms helmet was like Magnetos and that's how he blocked mental stuff. Wasn't he immune to mind reading back in the day before he had any fancy magic powers?


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## Nevermind (Feb 4, 2012)

Luke still does have Fold-Space.

What would be Doom's counter to that?


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

I know :33

Anyway as for the match up, Luke was rapping way before Doom knew what rap was


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Luke still does have Fold-Space.
> 
> What would be Doom's counter to that?



Plus Emerald Lightning, telekinesis, Precognition, Shatterpoints, Electromagnetic Radiation, White Current, energy absorption and redirection, etc...



Banhammer said:


> Luke may have the street cred, but victor would get all jambic pentameter on his ass



And we all know Doom is no poet or wordsmith.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 4, 2012)

any Doom experts on da forum ?


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## Banhammer (Feb 4, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> any Doom experts on da forum ?


None that would care to touch this topic.
Doom has gone through recent.. experiences.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> If current Doom in his regular powerset isn't above Tony then without prep he's not stomping Luke. Also I would like some actual citations from objective posters on Doom being "completely" immune to telepathy.
> 
> Luke was more then a match for current Tony.



Doom I think has some potent mystical capabilities on top of his technological stuff that should make this..without prep a pretty close fight one way or the other.

Unless he's lost those recently


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## Narcissus (Feb 4, 2012)

Not claiming an outcome on the match, but wanted to provide that.


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

Is that the same as current Doom?


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## Narcissus (Feb 4, 2012)

That's from the graphic novel Emperor Doom, so it's from a while back. Don't know if anything in regard to that feat has changed, which is why I'm reaming neutral on the outcome.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> Is that the same as current Doom?



no that feat might be like ten or more years old but it wasn't the first time Doom did something that broken and it wasn't the last either..so there is some precedent for it.

Mind you..Luke seems to be near Xavier level right? That should be at a level where Doom wouldn't be able to no sell his assault the same way he did purpleman


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## Huey Freeman (Feb 4, 2012)

lol Luke near Xavier level of telepathy there was a recent thread with Luke vs him and the general conclusion was the thread was a rape thread in Xavier favor.


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> That's from the graphic novel Emperor Doom, so it's from a while back. Don't know if anything in regard to that feat has changed, which is why I'm reaming neutral on the outcome.



Ah I see.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> no that feat might be like ten or more years old but it wasn't the first time Doom did something that broken and it wasn't the last either..so there is some precedent for it.
> 
> Mind you..Luke seems to be near Xavier level right? That should be at a level where Doom wouldn't be able to no sell his assault the same way he did purpleman



Luke hovers around or right under the range of Emma Frost and Xavier I think.


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

No, it wasn't. The match was Xavier's if Luke couldn't hold out long enough telepathically to stab him or teleport him or hit him with his TK.


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## Bender (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> No, it wasn't. The match was Xavier's if Luke couldn't hold out long enough telepathically to stab him or teleport him or hit him with his TK.



Ah, nevermind the match was Xavier vs Palpatine was a while ago.




On another note Xavier has touched all minds on the planet. Morals off=mind fuck time.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> Luke hovers around or right under the range of Emma Frost and Xavier I think.



it's debatable then if Luke would be able to overcome him before he could get off some type of attack I would think.

I'm not sure the extent of Dooms offensive capabilities magic wise but his suit has energy attacks that have IIRC one shotted class 90's 

so I'm not sure if he can take Luke out with a single attack or if he could at the very least keep the pressure off his mind..or so

not sure on if he has auto shields that are mystically backed and if so..to what extent..so soul rape..might be doable (Dooms resisted that on will as well though so it might not be an insta win Luke might have to keep it up)

Luke might win this if he can prevent Doom from attacking..it seems like


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## Gone (Feb 4, 2012)

What if Luke does his whole bend space thing to get himself to another planet or something to give him some space to hammer at Dooms defenses? Can Doom teleport?


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## Bender (Feb 4, 2012)

@Ryjacork

You mean fold space?


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## Gone (Feb 4, 2012)

Is there a difference? Warp, fold, bend, whatever. Why am I arguing for Skywalker?


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

I certainly don't want you to.


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## Bender (Feb 4, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Is there a difference? Warp, fold, bend, whatever. Why am I arguing for Skywalker?



I'm curious about that as well. According to Starwars.wikia Fold space is considered teleportation then what the fuck is force travel. Isn't that shit basically the same? Using Force travel may make you closer to the Dark Side? Dude that sounds like shit ripped from Kingdom Hearts.


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

Force Travel isn't the same as Teleportation. And it doesn't matter as it came out in 1995, a good decade before Kingdom Hearts.

Pray tell how that works.


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## Bender (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> Force Travel isn't the same as Teleportation. And it doesn't matter as it came out in 1995



Force travel was used in a SW book in 1995?  Yeah, sorry but your source wookiepedia disagrees with you since it doesn't mention that happening.


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## Gone (Feb 4, 2012)

@Fang

At least I can be objective (once in a blue moon), the day I see you argue against Sue Skywalker or Star Wars in general is the day goats fly out of my vagina on rocket ships.

@Bender

Idk if running is such a good idea anyway, even if it buys him some breathing room it also gives Doom planning time. Doom has too many hax compiled, he can resist mind fuckery, and his force field just make him too OP. And did I mention it's VICTOR VON FUCKING DOOM?


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## Gone (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> You need to work on your reading comprehension:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol at you bringing up that Warcraft thread when even other Star Wars fans said you were wanking, talking about a universe destroying weapon. Since were brining up things from the past should I mention your claim that a bloodlusted Skywalker could kill Death? 

Look I've tried to come to terms with you and you've just ignored me, but if your gonna be a dick and try to start shit when I'm not even debating you, then I'm not even going to bother responding to your crap anymore dude.


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## Bender (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> You need to work on your reading comprehension:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's difficult to take seriously considering how the ability originated from an "ARTICLE" for a miniature role-playing game. Also hardly any of these abilities displayed in video games, or miniature board games are replayed in mainstream material.


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

No one  ever said that, you even brought that up again to try and blow me off from the Warcraft vs Star Wars thread about Endless Mike's comment and he responded himself you were wrong about it. Do you want the link? Here it is:



Try not to lie about it. You can call me a dick, tell me to "fuck off" in a cute alternate spelling to get around and try to spell it out differently so its not an obvious attempt at flaming and baiting but try again. Your ad hominems aren't going to work.

>"Sue Skywalker"

Keep trying.



Bender said:


> It's difficult to take seriously considering how the ability originated from an "ARTICLE" for a miniature role-playing game. Also hardly any of these abilities displayed in video games, or miniature board games are replayed in mainstream material.



All of it still falls under the canon tree and is integrated into the fluff of the continuity, you'll just have to deal with it is canon for the most part. Been that way in Star Wars since 1987.

Anything that has non-canon elements just gets retconned or ignored. One aspect of it being out of wack with the continuity doesn't make the whole fluff non-canon.


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## Huey Freeman (Feb 4, 2012)

Was wondering when the usual starwars boycotting would begin . 

Since we using video game feats for starwars does not mean doom keeping up and beating people like galactus , dormu, nova etc in MVC counts


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

What Star Wars boycotting? The one you just made up?


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## Bender (Feb 4, 2012)

I don't have anything against Star Wars really...I just want to know if George Lucas was on crack when he did SW Ep VI. I mean seriously little fuzzballs helping fight against a technologically advanced empire? Also if they're stupid enough to think C-3PO is a god how the fuck can they do Leia's hair? SW Ep IV and V will forever be in my heart. The other movies reek of shit and make me wish I could axe Lucas in the face.


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## Gone (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> What Star Wars boycotting? The one you just made up?



No the one where you start flaming every thread where Star Wars loses or might lose, or just dosnt stomp, to get the thread locked.


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## Huey Freeman (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> What Star Wars boycotting? The one you just made up?



You know the usual fang way of dismissing his verse getting stomp with outrageous claims and good old flashing 1998 sarcasm and meme.


Anyway Doom already take away Luke's main strength telepathy and TK . 

It's just up to doom to take pity on Luke or not.


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> No the one where you start flaming every thread where Star Wars loses or might lose, or just dosnt stomp, to get the thread locked.



What flaming?  I see that you called me a "dick" and told me to "fuck off" earlier in your last two posts. Keep trying though.



Huey Freeman said:


> You know the usual fang way of dismissing his verse getting stomp with outrageous claims and good old flashing 1998 sarcasm and meme.
> 
> Anyway Doom already take away Luke's main strength telepathy and TK .
> 
> It's just up to doom to take pity on Luke or not.



Its a pity neither of the resident three Doom experts asserted that was possible. Nor did I ever bitch about the match up in any of this thread or anywhere else. But I guess that's your "OBD CONSPIRACY" theory crap at work again. Just like its a pity you have no idea about either sides abilities but want to get your troll on. It's not going to work.

Is your usual way to constantly flame-bait posters with one-liners that don't do anything? I guess it  must be. Even IWD admitted this match is a close one.

I guess me agreeing to the match up is your way of calling it "boycotting".


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## Bender (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> All of it still falls under the canon tree and is integrated into the fluff of the continuity, you'll just have to deal with it is canon for the most part. Been that way in Star Wars since 1987.
> 
> Anything that has non-canon elements just gets retconned or ignored. One aspect of it being out of wack with the continuity doesn't make the whole fluff non-canon.



I'll give you less flack if you show where the power of force travel debuted in sources other than in that article to that RPG board game. IIRC, not too long ago that article was under fire for being false.


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## Huey Freeman (Feb 4, 2012)

Fang said:


> What flaming?  I see that you called me a "dick" and told me to "fuck off" earlier in your last two posts. Keep trying though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so your ignoring his resistance to telepathy and ignore his shields .


Lawl at doom experts 

Man this guy is hilarious


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

I don't care if it was considered "fake" at one point or another until the admins figured out it wasn't, because it originated from the Official Star Wars magazine just like I don't care about having you giving me "flack or not".

Its that simple to me.


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## Huey Freeman (Feb 4, 2012)

It's all good we don't care about your wanking an already overrated verse


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

Another ad hominem.


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## Gone (Feb 4, 2012)

/sigh this happens with every Star Wars thread. Besides Twilight, haters are all usually the same, it's the fanboys that always derail stuff like this.

For the record I don't really hate Star Wars, but I think certain aspects of it are overrated as shit on the forums. And George Lucas's meth addiction has clearly effected the quality of the series in recent years...


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## Havoc (Feb 4, 2012)

Doom eats Luke alive.


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## Huey Freeman (Feb 4, 2012)

Havoc said:


> Doom eats Luke alive.



Dude the force is stronger than doom's shields , tech and magic


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## Havoc (Feb 4, 2012)

Doom doesn't need any of that, he'll nerve strike Luke and kill him.


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

There's nothing non-canon about it because its part of the official continuity. Its canon. Most of the stuff from the SW Tales are non-canon and thus their articles are ticked with that footnote. Same with other articles that's continuity in fluff is ambiguous. 

And I'm pretty confident Force Travel was in the Jedi vs Sith handbook which is obviously canon. So it counts in that way as well.

Luke suplexes Doom.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 4, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I'm not sure the extent of Dooms offensive capabilities magic wise but his suit has energy attacks that have IIRC one shotted class 90's



I think I saw scans of him using a spell to BFR someone back in time, like millions of years back

also, Force Travel kinda sounds like a really small scale version of DE Palps' Force Storms, which rip apart spacetime too


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

It does sound similar but it doesn't have anything to do with hyperspace energies which Force Storms from Darth Rivan or Darth Sidious use in their techniques. I think it just does a similar stuff like how The Hand's right hand works in JJBA.

Neither which are similar really to Fold-Space.

Anyway its not a bad match up. Hopefully IWD can post more so we can see how this match goes.


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## Norrin04 (Feb 4, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I think I saw scans of him using a spell to BFR someone back in time, like millions of years back
> 
> also, Force Travel kinda sounds like a really small scale version of DE Palps' Force Storms, which rip apart spacetime too



Yea he sent Morgana Le Fay back to 1 million b.c.


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## Narcissus (Feb 4, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I think I saw scans of him using a spell to BFR someone back in time, like millions of years back



Yeah, he did.



Doom has some pretty potent magic.


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## Fang (Feb 4, 2012)

Isn't that from Siege?


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## Norrin04 (Feb 4, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> it's debatable then if Luke would be able to overcome him before he could get off some type of attack I would think.
> 
> I'm not sure the extent of Dooms offensive capabilities magic wise but his suit has energy attacks that have IIRC one shotted class 90's
> 
> ...



Well I recall him putting down Skaar with like 3 or 4 blasts then using magic to revert him back to human form.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 5, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> @Fang
> 
> Well fuu huu huuck you too then. At least I can be objective (once in a blue moon), the day I see you argue against Sue Skywalker or Star Wars in general is the day goats fly out of my vagina on rocket ships.



Don't confuse zealous debating with biased or even passionate debating: Fang is intense and he's probably the most pro wars debater here..your making him out to be biased and unable to concede when a wars character clearly looses: This isn't the case at all he's done so many times when it's valid: such an accusation can border on misrepresentation and dishonesty as well so be cautious.

not that Fang needs vouching for but I've debating him a few Sw related threads and when it's a clear cut loss and not a spite thread he's had no issue what so ever admitting it



Crimson Dragoon said:


> this is the most hilarious accusation I've seen yet in this forum



really even if that were true..things are so bad that the only way to shut down a deliberate rape thread is to do exactly that because the mods will ignore it and do nothing to the OP'er other wise

so not only is it baseless but it was a dumb one too





Huey Freeman said:


> Lawl at doom experts




because you know more than Narc? CD? and Havoc?

because you know than I do?



Narcissus said:


> Yeah, he did.
> 
> 
> 
> Doom has some pretty potent magic.



Triumph and Torment is one of the best examples of how fast Doom learns and the type of potential he has

Do you know if Doom learned how to bleed off energies from his enemies the way Strange used too? Or does he lack that power?



Crimson Dragoon said:


> I think I saw scans of him using a spell to BFR someone back in time, like millions of years back



yeah but I mean more in the vein of Stranges old school chaos bolts the ones he could channel that could let him finger flick nappa style nuke entire planets and such like..Whether he can do those things or not..may make it close 

Doom learned some very..potent crap from Steph and then his own mystical research and high tech endeavors put him pretty high up there but I'm not exactly sure where

if he can do some of the higher end spells he should be able to kill luke before Luke breaches his defenses with a mind rape and finishes it.



Norrin04 said:


> Well I recall him putting down Skaar with like 3 or 4 blasts then using magic to revert him back to human form.



fantastic of you to post again Norrin

so he still has the magical bolts then? Okay if he can do that then..Doom can likely kill Luke before Luke can fully take him down...

*@TWF*: How fast can Luke soul rape? How Easily can he do it?


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## Fang (Feb 5, 2012)

Pretty damn fast seeing as how Luke being surprised and yet reacting in nanoseconds during one of his fights with Abeloth was more then enough time for Abeloth to keep him on the defensive.

I have the feat posted in the New Luke Skywalker Respect Thread. There's also a line about Luke "not using it on living beings" but that has to do with the power of the technique and its moral consequences. Not that he couldn't do it to a normal person.

It doesn't require any sort of prep or anything like that.

Also TK on the megaton to potentially gigaton level.


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## Huey Freeman (Feb 5, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Don't confuse zealous debating with biased or even passionate debating: Fang is intense and he's probably the most pro wars debater here..your making him out to be biased and unable to concede when a wars character clearly looses: This isn't the case at all he's done so many times when it's valid: such an accusation can border on misrepresentation and dishonesty as well so be cautious.
> 
> not that Fang needs vouching for but I've debating him a few Sw related threads and when it's a clear cut loss and not a spite thread he's had no issue what so ever admitting it
> 
> ...


Well I guess you just breeze pass rest of post I was for doom and with Havoc .

Oh I get it now only " experts " views can count. 


Step away from the computer man not everything in life is an argument


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## Norrin04 (Feb 5, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Don't confuse zealous debating with biased or even passionate debating: Fang is intense and he's probably the most pro wars debater here..your making him out to be biased and unable to concede when a wars character clearly looses: This isn't the case at all he's done so many times when it's valid: such an accusation can border on misrepresentation and dishonesty as well so be cautious.
> 
> not that Fang needs vouching for but I've debating him a few Sw related threads and when it's a clear cut loss and not a spite thread he's had no issue what so ever admitting it
> 
> ...



Well here is a couple pages of the fight,he also heals himself here with a spell.


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## Bender (Feb 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> There's nothing non-canon about it because its part of the official continuity. Its canon.



Source? 

Your word doesn't mean it's canon/



> And *I'm pretty confident* Force Travel was in the Jedi vs Sith handbook which is obviously canon. So it counts in that way as well.



Once again, SOURCE. Your word does not mean that it's unquestionably canon.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 5, 2012)

Fate of the Jedi - Conviction said:
			
		

> Luke could not help but keep track of the fight with some small part of his mind. That was his son at risk. He recognized Ben?s tactic, Ben and Vestara spread out in a loose screen between Luke and Valin. It could be a bad fight?two to one, yes, but Valin had more than a decade?s experience on Ben and Vestara. Ben needed to remember Valin?s lack of strength in moving objects with the Force?Yet most of Luke?s concentration was wrapped up in Callista. Her memories flooded him, her presence suffused him. And beneath it, beneath the love for him that was all she wanted him to feel, was pain, decades of pain and loneliness experienced in her death-union with Abeloth.
> 
> And Abeloth herself. Luke could sense her at the fringes of Callista?s presence. No matter how she sought to conceal herself, Abeloth was too strong, too alien to hide successfully.
> 
> ...



that's the soulfucking feat

keep in mind he's pulling her away from Abeloth


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## Havoc (Feb 5, 2012)

Does Luke have any kind of shields he can use?


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## Fang (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes, his TK is good enough to snip capital ships in half, destroy and manipulate artificial black holes, out-generate the reactor and engines of a Dreadnought class Super Star Destroyer, and match against Abeloth who can generate energies great enough to cause volcanic eruptions on planets through a person turned into a bomb from hundreds if not thousands of light-years away.


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## Havoc (Feb 5, 2012)

What does that have to do with shields?

Does he have feats of shielding himself with tk?


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## Fang (Feb 5, 2012)

Everything.

Uh. That's how Force-Users generate shields and barriers is with their telekinesis. He was blocking and absorbing turoblaser fire from an AT-AT in Dark Empire 01 with it.


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## Havoc (Feb 5, 2012)

OK, so what are his best feats of shielding himself with tk, none of that other stuff matters.


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## Fang (Feb 5, 2012)

All of it matters as it is an application of telekinesis. Its the set standard for him.

He became the essence of an immovable object in Dark Nest, he can shield himself from focused attacks from Abeloth who can level cities and the after-effects include imploding people close to her blasts or causing them to vaporize farther away.

So yeah, he can generate telekinetic barriers and walk on lava, through superheated steam, tank attacks from a casual city-buster, and root himself in the Force so deeply the reactor and engines of a Super Star Destroyer wouldn't budge him.

So he can make some pretty impressive shields and barriers with TK.

Plus teleportation, precognition, Shatterpoints, and so on.


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## Havoc (Feb 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> All of it matters as it is an application of telekinesis. Its the set standard for him.
> 
> He became the essence of an immovable object in Dark Nest, he can shield himself from focused attacks from Abeloth who can level cities and the after-effects include imploding people close to her blasts or causing them to vaporize farther away.
> 
> ...


No, it doesn't all matter.

Power output =! Defensive capabilities.

Those all sound like shit.

Doom breaks him with just his will.


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## Fang (Feb 5, 2012)

Well its a shame that your wrong because telekinesis is telekinesis in Star Wars. Generating a telekinetic barrier or shield is no different in power then using it offensively vs defensively.

The mechanics aren't different, nor anything else. The best he can attack with is also the best he can defend with. No ifs or buts unless this was ever contradicted, and it has never been.


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## Gone (Feb 5, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> really even if that were true..things are so bad that the only way to shut down a deliberate rape thread is to do exactly that because the mods will ignore it and do nothing to the OP'er other wise



I wasnt the only one who made that accusation...

And Im not trying to pick on Fang or anybody els really, its just that every single Star Wars thread over the past few weeks has devolved into a shit storm. And its always the same few people arguing back and foreth.


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## Narcissus (Feb 5, 2012)

To be clear, I am also of the opinion that this could actually be an interesting and close match. The thread would've just come out so much better if people hadn't started throwing around accusations and needlessly complaining.





Fang said:


> Isn't that from Siege?


I believe it was from Dark Avengers


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Triumph and Torment is one of the best examples of how fast Doom learns and the type of potential he has
> 
> Do you know if Doom learned how to bleed off energies from his enemies the way Strange used too? Or does he lack that power?


Triumph and Torment is something I've been meaning to read in its entirety, but i still haven't gotten around to it.

As for your question, I don't actually know the answer.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> Also TK on the megaton to potentially gigaton level.



that might be enough to compromise his shields..



Huey Freeman said:


> Oh I get it now only " experts " views can count.
> t



no of course not other wise I wouldn't be posting but knowing enough to make a meaningful contribution would help




Norrin04 said:


> Well here is a couple pages of the fight,he also heals himself here with a spell.



yeah I think that establishes he has enough power to rip Luke up in a shot or two.. I'm now thinking about defense from Lukes other abilities



Crimson Dragoon said:


> that's the soulfucking feat
> 
> keep in mind he's pulling her away from Abeloth



Narration seems to imply he wouldn't be able to do that to someone alive..or at least not easily

Mind you..Yoda did it to someone alive and Exar Kun did it to Luke so he should have experience with doing it the conventional way 

that being said Doom is an entirely different monster all togther when it comes to stuff like that 

Beyonder for example basically existence raped him..mind body and soul across every timeline at the same time and through sheer force of will he was able to overcome it and reverse it (mind you..it's important to note he did have big G's powers at the time..which might have aided in his survival..though I'm not sure if it boosted his will or anything it might have given G's formidable telepathic might)




Narcissus said:


> To be clear, I am also of the opinion that this could actually be an interesting and close match. The thread would've just come out so much better if people hadn't started throwing around accusations and needlessly complaining.
> I believe it was from Dark Avengers



It'll be an interesting match 



Narcissus said:


> Triumph and Torment is something I've been meaning to read in its entirety, but i still haven't gotten around to it.



it has one of Dooms best manipulation feats in terms of playing people..and it shows a good deal of depth

I advise you to read it as soon as possible it's very well done



Narcissus said:


> As for your question, I don't actually know the answer.



aight thanks any way




Ryjacork said:


> I wasnt the only one who made that accusation...
> .



I'm aware of that but all the same


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 5, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Narration seems to imply he wouldn't be able to do that to someone alive..or at least not easily



Well, that's probably because of his conscience and morals, not through any lack of ability. He did it to Callista since she was bound to Abeloth, which is pretty fucking rough for her and Luke had no choice but to do it


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 5, 2012)

Doctor Doom has epic willpower.

He's the type of guy who takes his helmet off and stares into the purple man's eyes and plays chicken

Seriously, we're talking facing crazy celestials down with nothing but his hubris.


----------



## Fang (Feb 5, 2012)

Yeah like CD mentioned it was a moral thing since ripping out a person's soul is a pretty ethnically fucked up thing.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> Yeah like CD mentioned it was a moral thing since ripping out a person's soul is a pretty ethnically fucked up thing.



Since doom is like, second to classic strange in wizardry, I wouldn't go for soulfuckery

Out of the top of my head, spacefolding victor into a couple of planets away might be the cleanest way, but since doom is the leading authority in space and time manipulation, I'm not 100% sure on how that would work.
Comics have a history of giving him batman utility belt level of gadgets.
Even if not, he might always just pull a marquis of death, and god, no one wants to touch that topic


----------



## Fang (Feb 5, 2012)

Doctor Strange is still shit currently so that's a pretty bad comparison. Has been like the past 5 years or so now. And again the funny thing about that soul-rape attack was...

Is that it was a technique originally designed to destroy and eradicate memories in a person's mind surgically with the Force. Now see how Luke does it to destroy or save souls from a Lovecraftian horror like Abeloth.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> Doctor Strange is still shit currently so that's a pretty bad comparison. Has been like the past 5 years or so now. And again the funny thing about that soul-rape attack was...


When I compared Doom to Strange, I was using the trial of the sorcerer supreme naturally.
And while Strange has a specific reason for having been nerfed in the past few years, doom's magic kind of has a lot of reasons to have grown stronger

Now, this is not without it's big IFS, but to what extent do they apply is rather muddy.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 5, 2012)

Fang said:


> Yeah like CD mentioned it was a moral thing since ripping out a person's soul is a pretty ethnically fucked up thing.



makes me wonder just how dangerous Yoda couldas been as a Sith considering one comic had him doing this just because some dark Jedi dared to clown on his height



Banhammer said:


> Since doom is like, second to classic strange in wizardry, I wouldn't go for soulfuckery
> 
> Out of the top of my head, spacefolding victor into a couple of planets away might be the cleanest way, but since doom is the leading authority in space and time manipulation, I'm not 100% sure on how that would work.
> Comics have a history of giving him batman utility belt level of gadgets.
> Even if not, he might always just pull a marquis of death, and god, no one wants to touch that topic



on Dooms person in his armor he's had as standard equip among other things: a time travel device, a device that nullified mutants powers..a probability manipulator and a device that allowed him to just randomly steal peoples abilities

No clue any of these are still standard equip though as Doom constantly changes what he walks around with


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 5, 2012)

I wish there were more scans of yoda fucking shit up going around
Even though it goes against his character


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 5, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> makes me wonder just how dangerous Yoda couldas been as a Sith considering one comic had him doing this just because some dark Jedi dared to clown on his height



Dooku once had a vision of a Dark Side Yoda and stated that if it actually happened, Yoda would overshadow even Palpatine


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 5, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> I made Doom vs Vader a few months ago.


this one 

Doom beat Vader there, but Vader is no Luke, so I dunno about this one


some Doom feats in that thread too


----------



## Fang (Feb 5, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> makes me wonder just how dangerous Yoda couldas been as a Sith considering one comic had him doing this just because some dark Jedi dared to clown on his height



What comic? Though TCW series has Yoda go to some planet to deal with Dark Jedi reviving on Byfeesh.



> on Dooms person in his armor he's had as standard equip among other things: a time travel device, a device that nullified mutants powers..a probability manipulator and a device that allowed him to just randomly steal peoples abilities
> 
> No clue any of these are still standard equip though as Doom constantly changes what he walks around with



Interesting. I wonder how Shatterpoints will dictate Luke's actions against Doom kun.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 5, 2012)

If doom knows about it, he can counter shatterpoints with doomlocks


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Feb 5, 2012)

masamune1 said:


> Reed Richards is even more hax than Doom. Doom is held back by his arrogance, but without that he just wouldn't be Doom.
> 
> Actually, Sue, Johnny and Ben are pretty damn hax in their own right. They would all stand a good chance against Luke.



Personally, I've always viewed Reed as considerably smarter than Doom in terms of raw intelligence. However, Doom has a far greater magical potency and strategic mind that not only makes up for it, but snubs the discrepancy his way. He is doom after all.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 5, 2012)

Reed takes in sheer inventions/gadgets/weapons and the feats those inventions have done

didn't he once do some shit that pushed back the Marvel cosmic pantheon (including the fucking LT) back to their realms/dimensions by using their energies against them ? That's insane


Ultimate Marvel Reed MADE the cosmic cube and their version of the Ultimate Nullifier + portal to the Negative Zone + mapped the multiverse (helped him do the Nullifier by using the Big Bang) and he's still nothing to mainstream Reed


Doom is more dangerous in battle at any given time though


----------



## Naruto (Feb 5, 2012)

Hi guys, Hitler Carebear here. Apparently this got reported a few times while I was gone. Some people want it closed, others don't, so I'm going to go ahead and try to delete less than contributory posts instead.

Oh and please drop the personal attacks or I'll ban you, yada yada. You know the drill.


----------



## Xelloss (Feb 5, 2012)

Oh well Naruto put the message before me, but idem remain on topic.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 5, 2012)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> Personally, I've always viewed Reed as considerably smarter than Doom in terms of raw intelligence. However, Doom has a far greater magical potency and strategic mind that not only makes up for it, but snubs the discrepancy his way. He is doom after all.



depends on fields of expertise
The fantastic four have more than twice have gone to doom and asked him for help to solve things that they cannot, like valeria's birth, or the council of reeds.
Doom is the leading genius in time travel, likely, the most powerful non-divine sorcerer right now, the best politician, the best strategist and a massive authority on everything else.
Any field that he isn't the maximum earth based genius, such as biology, like hank mccoy, he can easly combine the other places whe does dominate in, and make it so he doesn't have to be the leading person on it.
Having no repulsor tech has never stopped doom from being able to always more than match tony stark in battle.

So maybe douglas ramsay is a better linguistic, but doom  has a universal translation spell, so who cares?


----------



## Nihilistic (Feb 5, 2012)

What happened to the MoD arc Doom's powers? Does he still have them? Yes, I went there.

And why is some raging ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) deleting like 1/3rd of the posts here? Feels like I've walked into the carebear central and forgot to take my complementary pink purse.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 5, 2012)

no one wants to go to marquis of death
it's bad for buisness


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> Personally, I've always viewed Reed as considerably smarter than Doom in terms of raw intelligence. However, Doom has a far greater magical potency and strategic mind that not only makes up for it, but snubs the discrepancy his way. He is doom after all.


He isn't.

Doom and Reed have always been peers as far as raw intelligence.



Fang said:


> Well its a shame that your wrong because telekinesis is telekinesis in Star Wars. Generating a telekinetic barrier or shield is no different in power then using it offensively vs defensively.
> 
> The mechanics aren't different, nor anything else. The best he can attack with is also the best he can defend with. No ifs or buts unless this was ever contradicted, and it has never been.


There's nothing proving it is the same.

You can only go by actual feats, not conjecture.

You re wrong; I am right.


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Except that every single canonical source, in-universe and out-universe state there is no difference in their generation or mechanic for Force-Users. What Luke can effect with TK or generate with it is the same as what he can defend with it. 

If he can create telekinetic power to manipulate artificial black holes, shield himself from turbolasers and blaster cannons of warships that generate single to triple digit megaton levels of power, walk on lava, through superheated steam, survive in vacuum, rip multi-kilometer warships in half if he so chooses or tank attacks from Abeloth who can cause volcanoes to create planet-affecting quakes and aftershocks or bust cities, he can defend himself with it. 

So, there's nothing conjecture about it, ergo, your still wrong.

I'm right.


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Some of those are actually displays of him shielding himself, which can be used.

Others are not, which can't.

I'm still right.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

Eh...Concussive force is still concussive force, regardless of how it's applied, right?


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Feb 6, 2012)

TehChron said:


> Eh...Concussive force is still concussive force, regardless of how it's applied, right?



Not neccesarily.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

Well...Why wouldn't it be, in this case?


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Feb 6, 2012)

just because you can cause damage with said force doesn't neccasarily mean you can defend from the same force you can dish out.

this has been true in all areas of offensive combat, no matter the fiction, since like forever...


----------



## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

That's an endurance thing.

I'm talking about using the force to emit concussive force. So why couldn't the strength of a force push be applied defensively?


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Feb 6, 2012)

don't know. sounds kinda weird to be honest. i guess it can work like that.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 6, 2012)

telekinesis is just an ability to affect matter with your mind

it was always used both offensively and defensively


maybe 'telekinetic shields' doesn't sound right for some, but they've been around for a long time




now I assume that Doom's own shields (or his magic ?) prevent TKers from smashing his head like a pumpkin from the inside + they're strong enough to withstand raw concussive force - to what level though I don't know


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Havoc said:


> Some of those are actually displays of him shielding himself, which can be used.
> 
> Others are not, which can't.
> 
> I'm still right.



Wrong. Whatever feats he has with his TK be it offensive or not still count toward his defense since he can use and apply the same level of power to protect himself with his barriers and shields.

If Luke can collapse a singularity with his telekinesis that requires greater exertion of megaton force, he can do the same thing defensively to protect himself.

Your still wrong.

I'm still right.


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> telekinesis is just an ability to affect matter with your mind
> 
> it was always used both offensively and defensively
> 
> ...


No one is saying tk shields don't exist.

The fact is offensive capabilities don't equate to defensive ones.  You can't extrapolate one onto the other.


Fang said:


> Wrong. Whatever feats he has with his TK be it offensive or not still count toward his defense since he can use and apply the same level of power to protect himself with his barriers and shields.
> 
> If Luke can collapse a singularity with his telekinesis that requires greater exertion of megaton force, he can do the same thing defensively to protect himself.
> 
> ...


Wrong, his offensive feats show nothing of his defensive capabilities.

If you want to go that route, let's do the reverse.  If Doom can use energy output to defend himself from an incomplete IG, he can use the same energy output offensively and disintegrate Luke and his shields.

I'm right, I win.


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Nah, I'd like to see you post examples that contradict me from the Star Wars novels, comics, and media that Force-Users' feats stem from.

Oh wait you can't, because you don't know anything about it all.

Therefore: Thank you for your concession that I'm still right. Provide evidence Luke can't output the same power defensively as he can offensively or I'll just keep accepting now for the third time your simply giving me a fanciful semantic excuse as conceding.

Therefore I'm still right, you still lose.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 6, 2012)

pretty sure you can translate offensive telekinesis into defensive telekinesis, specially if such a thing as forcefields have been shown


----------



## Judas (Feb 6, 2012)

Havoc said:


> You re wrong; I am right.





Fang said:


> So, there's nothing conjecture about it, ergo, your still wrong.
> 
> I'm right.





Havoc said:


> I'm still right.





Fang said:


> Your still wrong.
> 
> I'm still right.





Havoc said:


> I'm right, I win.





Fang said:


> Therefore I'm still right, you still lose.



Clash of egos.


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> pretty sure you can translate offensive telekinesis into defensive telekinesis, specially if such a thing as forcefields have been shown



I can't speak for Marvel comics Psionics but in Star Wars for Force-Users, the exact amount of power one can put offensively into TK can and will be the same directly to it defensively with barriers and shields.

Its a basic fact. Its also stated in all the in-and-out universe guide and sourcebooks like Jedi vs Sith, the Dark Empire handbook, the Jedi and Sith database guide's, etc...

Kas'im created a Force shield that negated the power of Bane's Force Wave, and responded before that with a Force Wave of his own that matched it's power. That's just one example and Luke's the very best.


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Nah, I'd like to see you post examples that contradict me from the Star Wars novels, comics, and media that Force-Users' feats stem from.
> 
> Oh wait you can't, because you don't know anything about it all.
> 
> ...


I don't need to prove a contradiction, because you can only use actual feats of defensive tk to show how strong his defensive tk is.

It's impossible to show what he can do defensively based off offensive showing.  Ok, he can crush a can with his tk, how does that translate to how much energy he can shield against?

I win.

You are wrong, I am right.  As it has always and will always be.


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> pretty sure you can translate offensive telekinesis into defensive telekinesis, specially if such a thing as forcefields have been shown


Ok, I'll use an example for you.

Cable broke SS board.

How much energy can he shield himself against based off that showing?


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Yeah you do since the burden of proof is on you, and Occham's Razor supports my argument. Therefore the simplest explanation and answer is right and guess what, its not yours. I posted the actual feats of Luke's TK, and I also posted the fact that in Star Wars that correlate both in offensive and defensive usages.

Your whinning and inability to get over this is just more fanciful conceding to me. He can destroy warships that take output or defend against teraton+ forces. Therefore he can generate the same power to defend himself with his barriers and shields.

You lose.

I win again, and you'll never change that fact.

Post evidence, or concession accepted for the 4th time now.

Like always, I'm right.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 6, 2012)

wouldn't know. SS reformed it instantly, showing that the board's integrity may be somewhat of a subjective issue


----------



## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

He can use that offensive TK to intercept an attack of equal potency, for example.

It's not like Luke Skywalker is a drooling retard or something. He's a very capable unorthodox fighter, shown when he made Darth Caedus his bitch in his very own lair.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 6, 2012)

specially considering at the time, as an unbound alpha level mutant, he was fucking matter around on a massive yet molecular level


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Yeah you do since the burden of proof is on you, and Occham's Razor supports my argument. Therefore the simplest explanation and answer is right and guess what, its not yours. I posted the actual feats of Luke's TK, and I also posted the fact that in Star Wars that correlate both in offensive and defensive usages.
> 
> Your whinning and inability to get over this is just more fanciful conceding to me. He can destroy warships that take output or defend against teraton+ forces. Therefore he can generate the same power to defend himself with his barriers and shields.
> 
> ...


I see you failed to answer my question.

Concession:

[ ] Not Accepted [x] Accepted



Banhammer said:


> wouldn't know. SS reformed it instantly, showing that the board's integrity may be somewhat of a subjective issue


It's not, the board is made out of the same substance he is.

SS is a matter manipulator, him reforming it has nothing to do with, well, anything.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 6, 2012)

Havoc said:


> It's not, the board is made out of the same substance he is.
> 
> SS is a matter manipulator, him reforming it has nothing to do with, well, anything.



yeah, but at the time, cable was fucking around with matter as well

And Norrin may have just been taking it lulzy with him anyway

Jesus cable could keep a city island afloat
the question should be, can he tank island busters?


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

I see you dodged around the evidence, unable to provide evidence for the burden of proof on you and conceded again for the fifth time now. And no one is supporting your arguments, giving more examples of how your in the wrong at this point.

Told Status:

[_] Not Told
[x] Told
[x] Knights of the TOLD Republic

I win again.


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

TehChron said:


> He can use that offensive TK to intercept an attack of equal potency, for example.
> 
> It's not like Luke Skywalker is a drooling retard or something. He's a very capable unorthodox fighter, shown when he made Darth Caedus his bitch in his very own lair.


How do you determine what is of equal potency?

Based on him ripping a ship in half, how does that translate to how much energy he can defend against?  I think it's a finger blast from Doom.


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Based off the fact that weaker Force-Users have done. Based off the fact that warships in Star Wars can output energies from reactors that produce more energy then small stars and produce teraton level firepower and petaton level shields and level the surfaces of planets larger then the Earth in less then a few hours.

Based off the fact all your arguments are from ignorance. Lampshaded off the fact you have no idea how Force-Users powers and abilities work. Again provide examples Luke magically doesn't know how to output the same energy in his defensive TK as he does with his offensive TK.

Its that simple.


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> yeah, but at the time, cable was fucking around with matter as well
> 
> And Norrin may have just been taking it lulzy with him anyway
> 
> ...


Not sure what most of your post has to do with my point.

Also, are you suggesting Norrin weakened his board in order for Cable to be able to destroy it?  Anway, you see my point, it seems.  You can't say Cable can shield himself from island busting attacks based on him being able to affect an island with his tk.



Fang said:


> I see you dodged around the evidence, unable to provide evidence for the burden of proof on you and conceded again for the fifth time now. And no one is supporting your arguments, giving more examples of how your in the wrong at this point.
> 
> Told Status:
> 
> ...


I proved that you can't equate offense to defense because there is no reliable way to translate one to the other.

No one needs to support my argument, I'm satisfied with being the only one correct.


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

You didn't prove anything. You didn't provide evidence, you don't know what your talking about and you have only your inability to not prove anything not going or you.

I satisfied your still wrong.

Otherwise: Still waiting for those examples from Star Wars you'll never provide.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

Havoc said:


> *How do you determine what is of equal potency?*
> 
> Based on him ripping a ship in half, how does that translate to how much energy he can defend against?  I think it's a finger blast from Doom.



Is Pre-cog turned off? If not, that's how. Also in order to effectively intercept a ranged attack, it doesn't necessarily need to be of equal power, just enough to cause the incoming attack to expend it's energy in the clash between the two.



> Told Status:
> 
> [_] Not Told
> [x] Told
> [x] Knights of the TOLD Republic



Rancor aside, that is a fucking raw burn right there.


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Based off the fact that weaker Force-Users have done. Based off the fact that warships in Star Wars can output energies from reactors that produce more energy then small stars and produce teraton level firepower and petaton level shields and level the surfaces of planets larger then the Earth in less then a few hours.
> 
> Based off the fact all your arguments are from ignorance. Lampshaded off the fact you have no idea how Force-Users powers and abilities work. Again provide examples Luke magically doesn't know how to output the same energy in his defensive TK as he does with his offensive TK.
> 
> Its that simple.


You need to take a refresher course on comprehension.

You're mixing in displays of him using his tk for defense and offense and pretending like I'm writing them all off.  I don't know if it's for some agenda or ignorance.

Luke shielding himself from attacks from starships, etc. show what he will be able to shield against from Doom.

Tell me how much energy Luke can defend against based off him destroying a star ship.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

My interception argument still holds validity in spite of that logic, Havoc.


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> You didn't prove anything. You didn't provide evidence, you don't know what your talking about and you have only your inability to not prove anything not going or you.
> 
> I satisfied your still wrong.
> 
> Otherwise: Still waiting for those examples from Star Wars you'll never provide.


Tell me the defensive equivalent of destroying a star ship.

Right now I think it's at one finger blast from Doom.


TehChron said:


> Is Pre-cog turned off? If not, that's how. Also in order to effectively intercept a ranged attack, it doesn't necessarily need to be of equal power, just enough to cause the incoming attack to expend it's energy in the clash between the two.
> 
> 
> 
> Rancor aside, that is a fucking raw burn right there.


That doesn't make any sense at all?  What does pre cog have to do with anything we are talking about?

Maybe if he didn't use it all the time...


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Nah, my reading comprehension is just fine. You provide examples or sources that state telekinesis is not one broad Force power that can't work either which way. Either you post those examples contradicting my claims (which you cannot since you have no idea what your talking about) or you concede.

Common sense is on my side. Last time, provide evidence there is a magical difference in Luke using TK offensively or defensively in their output or power.

I'm waiting. Your the one who needs to work on reading comprehension, not too mention still have the burden of proof to work through here. 

Let me bold it for you: *Provide the same mechanics and energy behind a defensive barrier generated with the Force by Luke has less power in it then his offensive showings.*


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Nah, my reading is just fine. You provide examples or sources that state telekinesis is not one broad Force power that can't work either which way. Either you post those examples contradicting my claims (which you cannot since you have no idea what your talking about) or you concede.
> 
> Common sense is on my side. Last time, provide evidence there is a magical difference in Luke using TK offensively or defensively in their output or power.
> 
> I'm waiting. Your the one who needs to work on reading comprehension, not too mention still have the burden of proof to work through here.


You can't even answer my question.

You've given up.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

Havoc said:


> That doesn't make any sense at all?  What does pre cog have to do with anything we are talking about?


 Pre-cog enables Luke to recognize the destructive potency of an incoming attack, enabling him to counter it effectively if he has the means to do so.

Ergo, _if a shield won't work, he'll try to intercept it in midair with offensive TK.
_


> Maybe if he didn't use it all the time...



What do you mean by that?


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

So you concede for good then since you can't actually provide a single scrap of evidence?

Thanks for playing Havoc.

You lost again.


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Evidence of what, that there's no way to determine how offensive tk equates to defensive tk?

The evidence is that you can't answer my question.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

Offensive TK employed defensively is still out there, Havoc, even if you are just stalemating with Fang.


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Evidence the output of energy can't be the same, which it always is in Star Wars, which you still haven't provided it can't be. Thanks for still not knowing how to use reading comprehension or knowing how the others' sides powers work.

Your not going to get the last word here. The only proof here shown so far is you grasping at more straws again.

I win again.


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Offensively he can destroy a star ship.

What amount of energy is he able to defend against?


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Offensively he can do more then destroy a starship. The same as he can do to defend himself with the  same amount energy in the TK for defense.

You don't even know what a teraton is.


----------



## eHav (Feb 6, 2012)

Fang makes a SW claim. Fang doesnt back it up with anything other than opinion. Fang tells others to prove him wrong.


lol star wars fans

and btw, in every topic there's a clear diference in destructive output and defensive capabilities when people that use energy or whatever for both offence and defence. so the best showings are used in each category. blowing up a planet doesnt mean defending from a planetary attack. but whatever


----------



## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

So you don't have an answer.

I don't blame you, you can't have one.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

By employing that star-ship busting offensive to intercept an amount of energy equal to or slightly greater than the maximum which said star ship can defend against.

Which, given the shielding on star destroyers as Fang said, are forces measured in equivalence to teratons.

I don't think Doom can fire attacks of that magnitude.


----------



## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Havoc said:


> So you don't have an answer.
> 
> I don't blame you, you can't have one.



Just gave you one, your reading comprehension is just terrible if you can't see it in my last post. Just like how you don't know how to provide evidence for your claims and still have the burden of proof to show your claims.

I don't blame you, you don't what your talking about after all.



eHav said:


> Fang makes a SW claim. Fang doesnt back it up with anything other than opinion. Fang tells others to prove him wrong.
> 
> 
> lol star wars fans
> ...



lol negged for trolling then adding an edit after you smacked a gigantic red herring and ad hominem on top of another in the very same post. Your sour grapes don't bother me.


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## eHav (Feb 6, 2012)

trolling? how is it trolling when what i said is true? apparently not having the same opinion as mr Fang is trolling now


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## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Offensively he can do more then destroy a starship. The same as he can do to defend himself with the  same amount energy in the TK for defense.
> 
> You don't even know what a teraton is.


Based on what?  It's not based on showings of him using it defensively.  At least not ones you have thus far provided.

Magneto can pull a planet sized bullet going c back to Earth.

We can't just assume he can use that same amount of force to shield himself.



Until I see otherwise, Doom kills him with a finger blast.  Then he throws his carcass back in time for Raptor Jesus to devour.


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## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

eHav said:


> trolling? how is it trolling when what i said is true? apparently not having the same opinion as mr Fang is trolling now



lol

I once wrote a dissertation on how one could actually do that and then follow up with this defense. Appeal to authority aside (I think) then unless we want to go into that random tangent, then can we focus instead on the actual argument rather than you just being intentionally provocative?


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## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

eHav is a brave man to debate against a lunatic like Fang.


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## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Havoc said:


> Based on what?



Evidence.



> It's not based on showings of him using it defensively.  At least not ones you have thus far provided.



Yes I have. 

A: Luke can generate equivalent or greater energy to overpower warships that can output teraton-petaton level firepower or energy in their shields with his TK.

B: Luke has done the same with his shields, which are based off the exact same mechanics and properties.



> Magneto can pull a planet sized bullet going c back to Earth.



Who cares. Luke is better then Magneto when it comes to telekinesis or psychic powers. Flawed analogy.



> We can't just assume he can use that same amount of force to shield himself.[



Yes we can unless he contradicts himself with a feat that goes against it. Let's see...there is no example of that with Current Luke, therefore its allowed.



> Until I see otherwise, Doom kills him with a finger blast.  Then he throws his carcass back in time for Raptor Jesus to devour.



Provide proof that current Doom in his standard armor can output gigaton-teraton range firepower, overcome precognition, Shatterpoints, teleportation, and TK.

You can't.


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## eHav (Feb 6, 2012)

TehChron said:


> lol
> 
> I once wrote a dissertation on how one could actually do that and then follow up with this defense. Appeal to authority aside (I think) then unless we want to go into that random tangent, then can we focus instead on the actual argument rather than you just being intentionally provocative?



i guess we should all just say ok to whatever he claims so it makes him happy? he just has to show that luke can defend with the same force he can attack, since he made that claim in the first place. otherwise its pointless and he will just keep repeating himself. all his petaton garbage is meaningless untill he shows luke defending against shuch blasts


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## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

It's about the third time now I've reported eHav for trolling, baiting, and antagonizing the SW side in any thread.


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## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

eHav said:


> i guess we should all just say ok to whatever he claims so it makes him happy? he just has to show that luke can defend with the same force he can attack, since he made that claim in the first place. otherwise its pointless and he will just keep repeating himself. all his petaton garbage is meaningless untill he shows luke defending against shuch blasts



You could disprove it, since he's actually cited feats and a type of logic to apply them.

All havoc is doing is stalemating against it, setting aside my own interpretation which hasn't even been responded to.

Besides, just repeating yourselves is all havoc and you are doing. You're not even saying anything, just arguing about how each of you are right without doing any decisive disproving of one another's claims by trying to shift the burden of proof one way or the other.


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## eHav (Feb 6, 2012)

well,it looks like im still here and you still havent backed up anything doesn't it?


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## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What evidence?

No you haven't.

Then post the examples where he did it with his shield; the exact thing you should have done in the first place.

Logic.

No we can't, because assumptions aren't evidence.

First provide proof that Luke can defend against it.  Pre Cog feats?


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## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

...

Are you seriously trying to argue that Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi of all time, does not possess precognitive abilities. Precognitive abilities which are recognized as part of a standard skillset among high level force users?

Fang can probably prove shatterpoints and all that EU crap...but questioning precog is just pushing it past the point of credibility, Havoc.


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## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

Havoc said:


> Fang and I are dancing.
> 
> Leave us alone.



_Fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine_

*walks out of the kitchen*


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## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

Havoc said:


> What evidence?



Already provided, anything he can do offensively he can do defensively in energy output.



> No you haven't.



Yes I have. 



> Then post the examples where he did it with his shield; the exact thing you should have done in the first place.



Already did, your just clearly blind and lack the reading comprehension to see it in earlier posts.



> Logic.



Funny how you speak of logic when you haven't used any yourself. 

>Didn't provide evidence to contradict my claims.
>Didn't work with the burden of proof on your claims to prove them.
>Doesn't know how the other sides abilities and powers works but makes flawed argument from ignorance claims and blanket statements.

Try again.



> No we can't, because assumptions aren't evidence.



Except you never provided evidence, proof, or conjecture to disprove my claims and Luke's showings offensively to relate to himself defensively. Therefore you have nothing.

Its not an assumption, its a basic fact. 



> First provide proof that Luke can defend against it.  Pre Cog feats?



Already did. Don't like it? Too bad for you.


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## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

TehChron said:


> ...
> 
> Are you seriously trying to argue that Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi of all time, does not possess precognitive abilities. Precognitive abilities which are recognized as part of a standard skillset among high level force users?
> 
> Fang can probably prove shatterpoints and all that EU crap...but questioning precog is just pushing it past the point of credibility, Havoc.


What?

I'm asking for specific feats to see how adept or inept they are, I'm not asking whether he has precog or not...


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## Fang (Feb 6, 2012)

At this point every post Havoc makes has a phantom follow up post of mine saying he's wrong. The reasons having already been established and shown. Thread's going to get closed anyway since he's not provided proof to contradict the evidence of Luke's TK. I don't care if Luke stalemates, losses, or even wins but I'm not playing this circular argument bullshit with him anymore.

I win and am done here.


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## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> Already provided, anything he can do offensively he can do defensively in energy output.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Prove it.

No you haven't.

It may have been drowned out by your retarded rhetoric.

You didn't provide evidence to prove your claim.  The onus remains on you.  You don't even know who or what Doom is.

I've tried and succeeded.

All you did was provide conjecture to prove your claim.  A "fact" based on your assumption.

Do it again.


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## Havoc (Feb 6, 2012)

Fang said:


> At this point every post Havoc makes has a phantom follow up post of mine saying he's wrong. The reasons having already been established and shown. Thread's going to get closed anyway since he's not provided proof to contradict the evidence of Luke's TK. I don't care if Luke stalemates, losses, or even wins but I'm not playing this circular argument bullshit with him anymore.
> 
> I win and am done here.


I won the second you decided to "debate" against me.


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## Gone (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok I dont feel like reading the last three pages of circle jerk here, but how is Lukes TK going to hurt Doom? Dooms shields have taken a hit from the Beyonder and Sentry. (granted it was a nerfed Sentry, who broke through his shields rather easily later, but still).

Whats Lukes greatest TK feat? Plus Doom should have many more ways of circumventing Lukes defences before Luke could eventualy where his shield down.


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 6, 2012)

Summary well...... Force Push is an offensive ability for force users but can be used to defend against attacks by using the offensive ability. Does this apply to Luke's defense when hes not attacking someone? Can you define a durability feat for a peak human character by using an offensive technique?

These questions won't ever be answered but its nice to see we've moved on from the "lolz telapathic domination" that always ends up infesting these threads


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## Huey Freeman (Feb 6, 2012)

Havoc said:


> What?
> 
> I'm asking for specific feats to see how adept or inept they are, I'm not asking whether he has precog or not...



He using these dodging tactics to boycott the fact doom can just BFR Luke to the past .

It's not like Luke will be the strongest telepath, telekinetic or someone with precog Doom has faced.

Don't Doom curb stomp abstracts and heralds on a daily basis


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## TehChron (Feb 6, 2012)

With prep, yes, but Doom doesn't get prep here.


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## Xelloss (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok this have gone long enough.


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