# Hebi sasuke climbs the mid kage level ladder



## Icegaze (Feb 12, 2015)

All ninja who sasuke would go against are assumed to be able to take on and beat tsunade and mei 

Obvious assumptions : sasuke can use Kirin!! He will set it up . He doesn't need Amaterasu. 
Knowledge : none for all parties 
Restrictions : no ET

1) orochimaru 
2) Kin gin
3) war arc gaara
4) kisame 


Can sasuke get to kisame who I believe As far as mid kage level is concerned is the strongest

Edit : 
Location : open field 
Starting distance :25m

Orochimaru won't come out!


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## DavyChan (Feb 12, 2015)

idk who kin gin is but he loses to gaara. Gaara is high kage level. Sakura > Gaara  Sakura = EMS Sasuke EMS Sasuke >>> Hebi Sasuke


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## RBL (Feb 12, 2015)

sasuke beats noone.

orochimaru wins mid diff

kin gin win diff

gaara low-mid diff

kisame wins low diff


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## Roman (Feb 12, 2015)

dpwater25 said:


> idk who kin gin is but he loses to gaara. Gaara is high kage level. Sakura > Gaara  Sakura = EMS Sasuke EMS Sasuke >>> Hebi Sasuke



Sakura > Gaara

Sakura = EMS Sasuke


.......wat?

Hebi Sasuke should be able to take Oro, Kin and Gin low to mid diff tbh once he sets up Kirin. 

One thing I wanna know is whether or not we're dealing with Shukaku Gaara, Kage Summit Gaara or war arc Gaara. But whichever the case, I doubt Gaara could really give Sasuke the chance to set up Kirin as his sand could potentially stop the flames if they're not from Amaterasu. That would eliminate Sasuke's greatest weapon. However, his regular Chidori was already capable of bypassing Gaara's sand (not sure about gold dust), so I'm tempted to say Sasuke again.

I think he'd stop at Kisame. Kisame's water > Sasuke's fire. Once he sets up water dome, Sasuke's gone.


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## Icegaze (Feb 12, 2015)

Cows Dic said:


> sasuke beats noone.
> 
> orochimaru wins mid diff
> 
> ...



Orochimaru can't prevent sasuke from using Kirin

Kin gin didn't show much to say they can mid diff sasuke . Their shrouds can be pierced by chidori
Also they can't stop Kirin prep

War arc gaara low diff . Explain how . Since when was gaara immune to the inevitable genjutsu? From there chidori should work finely 

Kisame should win that much I agree


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## Ghost (Feb 12, 2015)

Location? Starting distance?


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## Veracity (Feb 12, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke isn't beating any Sannin member mid difficulty lmaoooo


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## Icegaze (Feb 12, 2015)

@like a boss 
Why can't he beat orochimaru?
Especially one who isn't using ET?
Orochimaru can't do shit against his genjutsu


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## Horizon28 (Feb 12, 2015)

Sasuke beats everyone mid-high diff, but stops at Kisame.


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## Icegaze (Feb 12, 2015)

Yh kisame is the only one who can casually stop sasuke from doing much of anything 
Flooding the entire area and fusing with samehada is very OP


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## Arles Celes (Feb 12, 2015)

Is Oro healthy? Does he have ET? Well, without ET he might lose as sharingan is a bad match up. Kirin can also force him to regenerate too often.

Kin and Gin are too much. If Sasuke lacks knowledge he loses to their RS treasures either by saying the word he uses the most or by staying silent too long. Kin in K6 is also too much even without those weapons.

War Arc Gaara...this might go either way depending how Sasuke uses CS2 and Kirin. Though I might favor Gaara a bit more.

Regarding Kisame I see Sasuke winning if he defeats him before he uses the Water Sphere jutsu. I'm not sure if Samehada can absorb Kirin but I kinda doubt it as it was hurt by Itachi's fireball...


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## Icegaze (Feb 12, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Is Oro healthy? Does he have ET? Well, without ET he might lose as sharingan is a bad match up. Kirin can also force him to regenerate too often.
> 
> Kin and Gin are too much. If Sasuke lacks knowledge he loses to their RS treasures either by saying the word he uses the most or by staying silent too long. Kin in K6 is also too much even without those weapons.
> 
> ...



He is healthy no ET
Read OP
I don't think he can survive Kirin . There is damage he can't regen from 

Kin gin can be killed by Kirin . As to their weapons honestly it only gets dangerous if the rope touches sasuke 
How wee sasuke has shown much better CQC skills and has genjufsu 

I do favor gaara quite abit to however gaara can't prevent Kirin which really doesn't take too long 

Samehada can't absorb Kirin that much is clear 
However sasuke can't do much against daikodan or kisame flooding the area even if kisame doesn't use water dome


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## Veracity (Feb 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @like a boss
> Why can't he beat orochimaru?
> Especially one who isn't using ET?
> Orochimaru can't do shit against his genjutsu



Sasuke needs the Sharingan to compete in CQC with oro , and as soon as his Sharingan is activated oro knows Genjustu is a problem. Considering his arrogance already proved fatal against a Sharinan weilder,  im pretty sure he doesn't get caught here. Even if he did, he easily catches Sasuke off guard with oro rebirth considering the latter has no knowledge on said technique.


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## Hand Banana (Feb 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @like a boss
> Why can't he beat orochimaru?
> Especially one who isn't using ET?
> Orochimaru can't do shit against his genjutsu



Sasuke admitted in the manga only reason he was able to beat Orochimaru was due to his illness.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Empathy (Feb 12, 2015)

I think Sasuke could potentially beat everyone on the list, but all with high amounts of difficulty (if he's capable of winning at all). If he gets healed every time, then he has a decent chance to clear, depending on which incarnation of Orochimaru it is. If he doesn't get healed, he'd be too tired after Orochimaru to fight anyone else.


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## richard lewis (Feb 12, 2015)

VS oro
Sasuke looses, oro was getting sliced to bits by kn4 naruto and was able to put himself back together easily so chidori and katons should pose much of a threat. As for sasuke's genjutsu at best it would serve as a distraction like he did against deidara but I don't see it being a big game changer. Karin isn't enough to to take down oro either, he was able to block kn4 naruto's menacing ball, so he can block Karin. Oro should be able to either outlast sasuke or take him out with a surprise kusangai strike.

VS kin and gin
This will depend on if sasuke gets hit with rikudo's tools, if he does he's screwed, if not it could go either way. If both kin and gin go kn6 I don't see sasuke being able to handle both of them, if he manages to take down one in base then he could probably handle the other in kn6 and take the. Out with Karin.

VS gaara
Sasuke looses, gaara's sand is just too fast and powerful for sasuke to deal with. Considering gaara has blocked meteors and C3 with his sand he can most likely block Karin "however I doubt sasuke would even get to set it up".

VS kisame
Kisame dominates, I don't really think an explanation is needed.


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## ARGUS (Feb 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> 1) orochimaru


Hebi Sasuke wins this mid diff at most 


> 2) Kin gin


Kinkaku and Ginkaku most likely win this due to sasuke not having intel on the tools 


> 3) war arc gaara


Gaara wins this mid diff 


> 4) kisame


Kisame spanks him


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## Empathy (Feb 12, 2015)

Kisame versus Sasuke would warrant explanation. Kisame's weak to genjutsu and likely can't react to _Kirin_. Using very little chakra and instead guiding naturally-occurring lightning, Kisame may not be able to counter with _Daikodan_ even if he could reach. Moreover, Manda's great for underwater combat and Kisame would have trouble putting him down (if he can at all). Sasuke can further supplement his underwater combat/escape with his natural-energy-imbued _Jotai Ni_ state. Sasuke can also keep up with him in close-quarters easily due to sharingan, and he has Orochimaru's regeneration in case he's injured. 

If Kisame drains Sasuke excessively like he's prone to do, then Orochimaru comes out in the form of _Yamata no Jutsu_, which Kisame probably can't kill for good. _Daikodan_ is Kisame's most powerful attack, and it'd be hard to put down both Manda and _Yamata no Jutsu_ with it (it'd at least require multiple usages). Not to mention his _juin_ and Orochimaru's _kawarimi_ for defensive purposes. Sasuke also has the tools to combat Kisame's draining/drowning fighting style in _Suiro Sameodori_. Orochimaru's probably the biggest threat of the list, in my opinion.


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## richard lewis (Feb 12, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Kisame versus Sasuke would warrant explanation. Kisame's weak to genjutsu and likely can't react to _Kirin_. Using very little chakra and instead guiding naturally-occurring lightning, Kisame may not be able to counter with _Daikodan_ even if he could reach. Moreover, Manda's great for underwater combat and Kisame would have trouble putting him down (if he can at all). Sasuke can further supplement his underwater combat/escape with his natural-energy-imbued _Jotai Ni_ state. Sasuke can also keep up with him in close-quarters easily due to sharingan, and he has Orochimaru's regeneration in case he's injured.
> 
> If Kisame drains Sasuke excessively like he's prone to do, then Orochimaru comes out in the form of _Yamata no Jutsu_, which Kisame probably can't kill for good. _Daikodan_ is Kisame's most powerful attack, and it'd be hard to put down Manda and _Yamata no Jutsu_ with it (it'd at least require multiple usages). Not to mention his _juin_ and Orochimaru's _kawarimi_ for defensive purposes. Sasuke also has the tools to combat Kisame's draining/drowning fighting style in _Suiro Sameodori_. Orochimaru's probably the biggest threat of the list, in my opinion.



First off I was under the impression that this is only hebi sasuke and oro won't be brought out if sasuke is wounded/out of chakra. If oro comes out then that changes everything.

Assuming oro will not come out once sasuke is drained then kisame should dominate. Kisame was keeping up with bee's 7 sword combat, he should have a solid advantage in CQC even against CS2 sasuke. All raiton variants get absorbed by samehada and katons are countered by suitons. Sasuke's genjutsu isn't strong enough to do much other than act as a distraction against kisame I don't really se it being a major game changer here. And even if sasuke manages to land a deadly blow kisame can just regen. I don't even see how sasuke is gunna set up Karin when kisame will either absorb his katons or counter than with suitons. Manda should be over powered by kisame's 1000 shark summons, either that or drowned by water dome. He's much more experienced than sasuke can has a solid elemental advantage, I just don't see how sasuke can win here.


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## Empathy (Feb 12, 2015)

The prospect of Orochimaru emerging is a component of Hebi Sasuke as a character, in the same way that beginning part II Naruto entering KN4 is a possibility for his character. Kisame was keeping up with two swords Bee, not seven, and he was still forced into getting wounded. Base Sasuke could keep up with version one A and Bee due to sharingan, and although he lost, he was still able to outmaneuver or parry them at times. Kisame doesn't have near their speed or lethality in close-quarters, so Sasuke has great chances with him; although, Kisame could still keep up with Bee and base Gai, so versus Sasuke in kenjutsu would probably be inconsequential. Kisame has a large strength advantage, and can absorb any ninjutsu augmentation, but Sasuke's faster and can easily perceive and react to all Kisame's moves due to sharingan. He could duck A's elbow and plant a _Chidori_ in his chest. If he could do it to a much faster character like A, then he might be able to with Kisame. 

It wouldn't kill him, but it'd demand Kisame regenerate and could put an end to their kenjutsu bout in favor of larger suiton. Sasuke can also augment himself with natural energy through his _juin_, which will at least lessen the physical strength and durability discrepancy and widen Sasuke's speed advantage. Kisame still has the reflexes to keep up with Sasuke though, since he could do so with Bee and Gai. Sasuke can regenerate just as Kisame can, too. While Kisame can absorb _Chidori_ variants, Sasuke still has lethal snake _kuchiyose_ to aid him in close-combat. Furthermore, one of Sasuke's more outstanding advantages up close is sharingan genjutsu. Kisame doesn't have any good feats to break it, and I don't think Samehada is coherent enough to function as a viable partner. He did travel with Itachi, so he knows to avoid eye-contact, but that's his only prevention method and it's not perfect; fighting via Samehada's sensory alone decreases his close-quarters effectiveness. 

If Kisame is caught in genjutsu, then he likely can't break himself out and Sasuke has an opening to decapitate him. _Chidori_ variants and katons aren't major worries for Kisame, but their loss of effectiveness aren't exactly crippling to Sasuke. It's not like Kisame's suiton advantage over katon is a tremendous blow to Sasuke — it's negligible. Sasuke merely needs to get enough room to fire katons straight into the sky to set up _Kirin_. Kisame having suiton doesn't mean all katons just instantly disappear. He can easily get enough space when he's faster and has genjutsu, or with Manda's aid if necessary. I doubt one _Senjikizame no Jutsu_ would kill Manda, and he'd take a long time to drown. Kisame really can't prevent him from getting air either, even within _Dai Bakusui Shoha_. It's not like I think Kisame can't win. I actually think their fight is very close. I just don't think that Kisame so clearly wins that an explanation isn't even necessitated.


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## richard lewis (Feb 12, 2015)

Empathy said:


> The prospect of Orochimaru emerging is a component of Hebi Sasuke as a character, in the same way that beginning part II Naruto entering KN4 is a possibility for his character.



well generally it would be specified in the OP whether or not naruto can use kurama chakra. I see your point and I stated that I was going off of the assumption that oro cannot come out.



Empathy said:


> Kisame was keeping up with two swords Bee, not seven, and he was still forced into getting wounded.



Your right I forgot he didn't use all swords. however the only blow base bee landed is when he scratched kisame with his raiton enhanced pencil, so it was a very light wound.



Empathy said:


> Base Sasuke could keep up with version one A and Bee due to sharingan, and although he lost, he was still able to outmaneuver or parry them at times. Kisame doesn't have near their speed or lethality in close-quarters, so Sasuke has great chances with him; although, Kisame could still keep up with Bee and base Gai, so versus Sasuke in kenjutsu would probably be inconsequential.



I can agree with this for the most part, the fight when be decided by taijutsu/kenjutsu



Empathy said:


> Kisame has a large strength advantage, and can absorb any ninjutsu augmentation, but Sasuke's faster and can easily perceive and react to all Kisame's moves due to sharingan. He could duck A's elbow and plant a _Chidori_ in his chest. If he could do it to a much faster character like A, then he might be able to with Kisame.



Ei has a tendancy to charge his opponents head on since 90% of the time they can't even hurt him due to raiton no yori. I'd wager he could have avoided sasuke's chidori if he wanted to, considering his father was able to dodge FRS from KCM naruto at close range twice. 

Sasuke isn't much faster than kisame and samehada can shave sasuke's chakra away if he gets too close.



Empathy said:


> It wouldn't kill him, but it'd demand Kisame regenerate and could put an end to their kenjutsu bout in favor of larger suiton. Sasuke can also augment himself with natural energy through his _juin_, which will at least lessen the physical strength and durability discrepancy and widen Sasuke's speed advantage. Kisame still has the reflexes to keep up with Sasuke though, since he could do so with Bee and Gai. Sasuke can regenerate just as Kisame can, too.



Since when can sasuke regenerate? He can use oral rebirth but sasuke stated that it drains his chakra so he could probably only do it once or twice.



Empathy said:


> While Kisame can absorb _Chidori_ variants, Sasuke still has lethal snake _kuchiyose_ to aid him in close-combat. Furthermore, one of Sasuke's more outstanding advantages up close is sharingan genjutsu. Kisame doesn't have any good feats to break it, and I don't think Samehada is coherent enough to function as a viable partner. He did travel with Itachi, so he knows to avoid eye-contact, but that's his only prevention method and it's not perfect; fighting via Samehada's sensory alone decreases his close-quarters effectiveness. If Kisame is caught in genjutsu, then he likely can't break himself out and Sasuke has an opening to decapitate him.



Sharingan users have to stand still when performing genjutsu, thats one of it's weaknesses "chiyo explained this in their fight with itachi". Itachi is the only person thats showcased the ability to move around while using genjutsu. Sasuke genjutsu isn'tt doing much other than creating a distraction like it did against dierdara, I don't really see it being a major game changer.



Empathy said:


> _Chidori_ variants and katons aren't major worries for Kisame, but their loss of effectiveness aren't exactly crippling to Sasuke. It's not like Kisame's suiton advantage over katon is a tremendous blow to Sasuke ? it's negligible. Sasuke merely needs to get enough room to fire katons straight into the sky to set up _Kirin_. Kisame having suiton doesn't mean all katons just instantly disappear. He can easily get enough space when he's faster and has genjutsu, or with Manda's aid if necessary.



Kisame isn't stupid, if he see's sasuke firing katons up into the sky he's probably put them out with his suitons. He wouldn't just stand there and watch him do it. Sasuke can't use katons and genjutsu at the same time so IDK what genjutsu is gunna. Kisame's suitons are so huge even from a distance he could put out any of sasuke's katons.



Empathy said:


> I doubt one _Senjikizame no Jutsu_ would kill Manda, and he'd take a long time to drown. Kisame really can't prevent him from getting air either, even within _Dai Bakusui Shoha_. It's not like I think Kisame can't win. I actually think their fight is very close. I just don't think that Kisame so clearly wins that an explanation isn't even necessitated.



manda is gunna have a hard time fighting hundreds of sharks while underwater trying to hold it's breath. Not to mention sasuke also has to breath and he can hold his breath nearly as long as manda can. 

To be honest water dome =  sasuke loose, he cant use katons underwater which means no karin. Manda is at a disadvantage against kisame's sharks b/c theres just so many of them. Sasuke might get luck and kill kisame b4 thing get serious but kisame can put sasuke down if he pulls out his big guns early "which is what he usually does"


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Sasuke needs the Sharingan to compete in CQC with oro , and as soon as his Sharingan is activated oro knows Genjustu is a problem. Considering his arrogance already proved fatal against a Sharinan weilder,  im pretty sure he doesn't get caught here. Even if he did, he easily catches Sasuke off guard with oro rebirth considering the latter has no knowledge on said technique.



Sorry since when does sasuke need sharingan to compete against oro in CQC?

Sasuke has no knowledge of oral rebirth true . He doesn't need knowledge to avoid a person Spitting himself out


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## Deer Lord (Feb 13, 2015)

I love it when people just assume sauce can pop out kirin whenever he wishes
when in reality by the time he set it up vs itachi he was nearly drained of stamina, and he had help from itachi's fire techs in that fight.

sauce would die before set up is complete against any of these foes.

1) orochimaru 
Sauce defeated a crippled orochimaru while exploiting oro's wishes to rape take over his body.
A serious, healthy oro with access to ninjutsu schools him.
I can also actually see oro surviving kirin in the same manner sauce survived ama. not that he'll need to since sauce would be dead before kirin comes into play.

2) Kin gin
They destroy sasuke. kin and gin managed to give high difficulty to *two *kages.
sasuke will be sucked into the gourd pretty fast with no knowledge.
if kyuubi forms come into play sasuke is even more fucked.

3) war arc gaara
War-arc  gaara destroys sasuke. nothing short of kirin even tickles his absolute defense+extra sand barriers. and sauce has no sussano to help him here. manda would probably not be much help either considering gaara's massive sand techs.
Sauce has a better shot if this is Start-of-shippuden gaara, and even then he'll beat him with very high-diff.

4) kisame
Annihilates sauce for obvious reasons.

Hebi sasuke isn't mid-kage level at all, people are either downplaying kage or hyping up sauce, haven't decided which one is it really.
Sasuke's performance in the manga doesn't suggest so either. He defeated a crippled hand-less oro which isn't even kage level himself. Extreme-diffd deidara, a low-kage opponent, and lost to a sick blind-itachi that could have actually killed him way faster if he wanted to.
Indeed all Mid-Kage feats.

I'm seeing hebi-sauce actually struggling with the weakest kage (Rasa, mei and gaara at the begining of P2), he isn't beating any mid-kage unless he has favorable conditions.


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

Sasuke only needs to shoot 4 Katon into the air to set up Kirin 
He doesn't need Amaterasu nor does 4 Katon drain him 
What drained him what the battle itself and he chose to take advantage of Amaterasu 
Doesn't mean he couldn't pull of a simple set up tech without it . It's no different from jiraiya frog song . Is that impossible to set up ?

Lol sasuke decimates mei with disgusting. Difficulty . He is mid because he can rtake out 2 of the 5 kage 

He also beat deidara and even could have prepped Kirin if he wanted but didn't feel the need to 
Sasuke dominated deidara

A sick itachi is also mid kage level. Since neither mei or tsunade can remotely hope to survive against an instant Amaterasu . They die laughably


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## Deer Lord (Feb 13, 2015)

> Mei being very low kage herself
> Using that to justify anyone beating her to being mid-kage

also


> Sasuke dominated deidara



*Spoiler*: __ 










And what differense does it make if sick itachi is mid-kage?
sasuke essentially lost, and itachi was cutting him slack for the entire fight.
If itachi wanted to kill him it would have happened.


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> > Mei being very low kage herself
> > Using that to justify anyone beating her to being mid-kage
> 
> also
> ...



Being able to beat mei and tsunade makes you mid kage 
That's something hebi sasuke can do 

Sasuke said himself he had another way to win 
Talking about cutting slack so know sasuke wasn't fighting diedara with intent to kill
He wanted info on itachi 
Ignore that why don't you 

Yes itachi can 1 shot a shit load of people regardless of his perceived level. Onoki is high kage yet if itachi starts a match with Amaterasu onoki would have just died

Sasuke could have easily prepped Kirin against deidara deodar a is like the best target for it 
Airborn target who woldnt know the katons aren't aimed at him . 
Thunder cloud deidara dies 

Sasuke perfomance against deidara is no different from itachi against sasuke 
Either could have easily defeated the weaker opponent


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 13, 2015)

People still think Gaara loses to Hebi Sasuke, how we have fallen.


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

Well tbh I don't see why gaara somehow has genjutsu immunity 
Despite everyone who has faced sharingan falling for genjutsu

Gaara isn't above being caught and getting chidori 

Also gaara can't do much against Kirin . 

5 clone susanoo swings sent him flying . V3 susanoo has shown less physical strength than tsunade who couldn't even break a real madara rib cages susanoo . 

Kirin broke itachi susanoo entirely . Quite obviously I don't think anyone can debate that 5 V3 susanoo sword attack has more power behind it than Kirin

So yes if sasuke sets up Kirin gaara can loose . Gaara needed the entirety of the desert sand to save the village from c3. In an actual battle if he is under pressure he isn't going to be gathering that much sand 

Jouki boy anyone


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## Deer Lord (Feb 13, 2015)

> Being able to beat mei and tsunade makes you mid kage


I honestly can't see why you came to this conclusion.

and for the record I don't think hebi sauce would beat tsunade either.

And I don't think kirin would be so easly set up
The entire uchiha hideout was inflamed with black fire at that point, a sizeable boost to sasuke's efforts, not to mention going for kirin right off the bat isn't what sasuke does IC in both his fights.

Regardless sasuke by no means no-diffs deidara, I agree that he is marginally superior, but deidara isn't mid-kage himself anyway.

Fact of the matter is hebi sasuke fough against sub-kage to upper-low kage and narrowly managed to survive those encounters (with the exception of crippled oro). He'd get beat by any of the sanin or the gokage with the exception of mei. So In my opinion he's at low-kage tier.

Or maybe I just have higher standarts to what constitues as Low/Mid/High kage.
Which might be the case seeing as you also think hidan is low-kage and Oonoki is high-kage.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Well tbh I don't see why gaara somehow has genjutsu immunity
> Despite everyone who has faced sharingan falling for genjutsu
> 
> Gaara isn't above being caught and getting chidori
> ...



He is above getting caught by genjutsu
Chidori is countered by flight and sand Tsunami.

Kirin is a nonfactor as Gaara won't let that happen


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> I honestly can't see why you came to this conclusion.
> 
> and for the record I don't think hebi sauce would beat tsunade either.
> 
> ...



Mid kage requires you to be able to beat at least 2/5 I don't see how that's not obvious 
Tsunade isn't  immune to loosing her head 
So she dies 

Funny you would say deidara isn't mid when he can causally beat mei and tsunade 
He also beat shukaku gaara . You trying to say that gaara was low kage level ?? Low compared to who mei ??

Sasuke can use Kirin without Amaterasu quite obviously he took advantage of it because it was a smart move doesn't mean he can't just set it up by himself 
It also had a quicker set up than frog song 

Would you say jiraiya can't use it in battle ?

@kazekage you loose credibility when you spout bullshit like gaara is immune to genjutsu
Actual genjutsu users with feats were caught by it . Oro with a 5 was caught by it . Danzo as well 

No battle involving uchiha hasn't ended up in genjutsu working 

When gaara is caught he is clearly vulnerable to eating a chidori . I mean his mummy sand defense his best to date gets casually punctured by a single bead 
I see no reason to believe sasuke going at gaara with a chi for enhanced by CS can't puncture his subconscious sand defense


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## Deer Lord (Feb 13, 2015)

> Mid kage requires you to be able to beat at least 2/5 I don't see how that's not obvious


Thats your definition, to which I disagree.


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

That's the common NF definition do feel free to ask 
Mid kage level obviously involves comparing to the kages during the war arc


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## Deer Lord (Feb 13, 2015)

Thats not far from where I see it actually
IMO all the gokage in war-arc are mid-kage (except for mei who is low).
And I don't think hebi sasuke can beat any of them bar mei.

But I guess it's pointless to argue levels if we define them differently.

And I already stated my opinion on the particular match ups in this thread.


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

Onoki is far from mid unless you are counting the likes of hashirama 
Bar those god level characters onoki and minato are the top of top 
Clearly he high kage


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## Deer Lord (Feb 13, 2015)

Oonoki is definetly one of the strongest mid-kage but I'm hardly seeing him beating people like Tobirama, Muu (who's essentialy oonoki+), 3rd raikage or edo itachi

not to mention the high end guys like Sm kabuto or KCM nardo.


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Oonoki is definetly one of the strongest mid-kage but I'm hardly seeing him beating people like Tobirama, Muu (who's essentialy oonoki+), 3rd raikage or edo itachi
> 
> not to mention the high end guys like Sm kabuto or KCM nardo.



They are all high end but yes he isn't beating anyone you just mentioned without a massive struggle 
The fact that they can't beat him with ease puts him on that level 
Well bar Muu who he can actually beat 
3rd raikage would be beat as well . He doesn't  have the speed to avoid Jinton laser 

Sm kabuto actually can be beat . Onoki always starts with Jinton depending on the size of it kabuto could get killed casually


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## Deer Lord (Feb 13, 2015)

3rd raikage has enough speed to aim-dodge onoki, even if he's isn't outright blitzing like his son would. regardless of particular matchups he's overall a superior shinobi.
Muu has everything that oonoki has plus invisibility, sensing and splitting
he's also better than oonoki stamina wise.

SM kabuto has good enough reaction time to dodge it/oral rebith/liquify away, he was doding sauce's arrows with zero difficulty after all.


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> 3rd raikage has enough speed to aim-dodge onoki, even if he's isn't outright blitzing like his son would. regardless of particular matchups he's overall a superior shinobi.
> Muu has everything that oonoki has plus invisibility, sensing and splitting
> he's also better than oonoki stamina wise.
> 
> SM kabuto has good enough reaction time to dodge it/oral rebith/liquify away, he was doding sauce's arrows with zero difficulty after all.



Muu lacks heavy weight techs which is huge for fire power . Ask mizukage clam 
Muu also lacks clones. He has a splitting tech which is good 

Invisibility is not such a big deal anyone with clones can make the tech fairly useless 

Stamina wise not too sure who is better 

All round yes sandaime raikage is superior to onoki I agree 

Oral rebirth Jinton ??? 
If the laser hits kabuto there is no kabuto left . Think about the Jinton onoki used against madara which madara preta path'd . Or the one which leveled flower tree world 

Dodging an arrow is easier than a laser with the ability to sweep to keep up with you


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## Deer Lord (Feb 13, 2015)

I wasn't suggesting oral rebirth as a way of recovery.
More like, oonoki throws jinton and kabuto escapes out of his own mouth in the form of a snake allowing his old body to get vaped.


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> I wasn't suggesting oral rebirth as a way of recovery.
> More like, oonoki throws jinton and kabuto escapes out of his own mouth in the form of a snake allowing his old body to get vaped.



I see what you mean . Using his snake belly button . Kinda like when he split itachi ?
If so yh that should work fine


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## Bonly (Feb 13, 2015)

Sasuke starts to climb up the ladder but gets to the first step named Orochi and he stops right there.


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## Veracity (Feb 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry since when does sasuke need sharingan to compete against oro in CQC?
> 
> Sasuke has no knowledge of oral rebirth true . He doesn't need knowledge to avoid a person Spitting himself out



Oro was competing against 4k Naruto in CQC, he would destroy a sharingan less Sasuke don't kid yourself.

Sasuke will think oro is dead and will not expect oral rebirth, his guard will be completely down.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 13, 2015)

Oro was implied to be stronger and Sasuke admitted it, so thus, Oro should kill Hebi Sasuke.


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## Icegaze (Feb 14, 2015)

And jiraiya was implied to be so strong he could have taken out Kisame and itachi
Yet we know that's utter BS
Sasuke did beat orochimaru because orochimaru was weakned 

Also orochimaru wasn't competing with kn4 . Orochimaru simply couldn't die by the silly attacks from kn4. However sasuke has a way to kill him or simply genjutsu him. Even if orochimaru was healthy he still won't have been able to take over sasuke body . He failed to do so with kid itachi


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## Veracity (Feb 14, 2015)

I advice you read through those chapters again because oro landed more hits than KYUUBI Naruto did, so yes, that does = competing with 4k Naruto in CQC, which Sharingan less Sasuke would get trashed against. Even if it was primarily a product of his uber resilience and Ninjustu, so what ? That's still part of his Cqc ability.

Why he need to take over Sasukes body? I'm the battledome, I'm sure killing him is just fine.


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## Icegaze (Feb 14, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I advice you read through those chapters again because oro landed more hits than KYUUBI Naruto did, so yes, that does = competing with 4k Naruto in CQC, which Sharingan less Sasuke would get trashed against. Even if it was primarily a product of his uber resilience and Ninjustu, so what ? That's still part of his Cqc ability.
> 
> Why he need to take over Sasukes body? I'm the battledome, I'm sure killing him is just fine.



How would he kill someone who can lol genjutsu him for shits and giggles 
Kakuzu would also dominate kn4 actually most people with durability would beat the silly chakra monster with no thought process . Sasuke wouldn't do any worse against kn4. Orochimaru did say even at kn3 naruto was much weaker than sasuke . Doubt kn4 closed the gap 

You should reread the chapter . Kn4 in CQC is far from above sasuke so so far 

Having more power doesn't make you better otherwise tsunade would shit stomp gai


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 14, 2015)

You bring up things that are pointless. Gaara has clearly never been caught in a genjutsu and has techniques to deal with them. Watch your self.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> And jiraiya was implied to be so strong he could have taken out Kisame and itachi
> Yet we know that's utter BS
> Sasuke did beat orochimaru because orochimaru was weakned



 The circumstances were different. Here, it was never outright stated that Jiraiya was superior. Even Kisame was wondering why they were leaving and Itachi explanation involved his cautiousness of overusing his MS.

 Here, it was outright stated why Sasuke couldn't have defeated Deidara easily despite killing Orochimaru. Sasuke had no reason to lie there.



> Also orochimaru wasn't competing with kn4 . Orochimaru simply couldn't die by the silly attacks from kn4. However sasuke has a way to kill him or simply genjutsu him. Even if orochimaru was healthy he still won't have been able to take over sasuke body . He failed to do so with kid itachi



 Yet KN4 Naruto was still exhausting his chakra reserves regardless.

 The only way Sasuke can win this is genjutsu, but if he could, then in all likelihood, he could've just lolgenjutsu'd Deidara to win instead of using genjutsu that Deidara could perceive.

 Of course, Oro does state Sasuke's genjutsu is the same one Itachi used which fodderized him, so it's possible Sasuke would win only with lolgenjutsu if he can land it on him.

 Edit: However, Oro's Hydra technique allows him to shield himself from Genjutsu while he can just pressure Sasuke with his Hydra.


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## Veracity (Feb 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> How would he kill someone who can lol genjutsu him for shits and giggles
> Kakuzu would also dominate kn4 actually most people with durability would beat the silly chakra monster with no thought process . Sasuke wouldn't do any worse against kn4. Orochimaru did say even at kn3 naruto was much weaker than sasuke . Doubt kn4 closed the gap
> 
> You should reread the chapter . Kn4 in CQC is far from above sasuke so so far
> ...



Are you serious ? You realize it's possible to kill someone without looking into their eyes. Especially if a technique is used to specifically catch this opponent off guard. Chances are, Sasuke is going to attempt to kill oro physically before opting for Genjustu, especially if oro is attempting to avoid eye contact. Even if Sasuke does catch oro in Genjustu, what does he do next ? Strike him down. Then oro uses oral rebirth and kills Sasuke, it's honestly a win-win situation for oro.

What makes you think kakuzu would have a chance against Kn4 Naruto ? He was canonically trolled by base Naruto with a Bunshin feint. Someone substantially faster like KN4 Naruto would dominate him in CQC. There's also a distinct difference between being able to fight against someone only because of Ninjustu/resistance/ Durability, and actually landing hits against said opponent without the use of such. Oro was dodging his attacks here: perceived
perceived
And outright landing hits like here: perceived
perceived

Don't you think oro was talking all that trash initially to trick Naruto into releasing Kyyubi chakra ? I mean that kinda was the point...

Sasuke WITH the Sharingan can compete in CQC with 4k Naruto yes. But Sasuke without Sharingan ? No, that's the entire point here. I said Sasuke cannot compete against oro in CQC without Sharingan and you attempted to refute that .


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## sabre320 (Feb 14, 2015)

The only one sasuke has a shot is against is kin and gin and thats assuming they mess around and dont go v2 or use the tools effectivey....overconfidence might cause one brother to fall leaving the other open to genjutsu...though im double minded on sasuke suppressing v2 gin...

sasuke himself admitted that he only defeated orochimaru because he was sick and at his weakest even then sasuke was paralyzed by the toxin while engaging orochimaru orochimaru in white snake form will push sasuke with a high chance of paralysis .Genjutsu is broken through pain method  and orochimaru will not try to takeover sasuke this time..worst comes to worst yamata no orochi comes out and i dont even kirin is completely killing that... 

War arc gaara is out of hebis league he can easily keep distance use sand eye to counter genjutsu and while exhausted is able to block 5 sussanos not to mention he can grind so much sand that sasuke will be overwhelmed eventually..

kisame knows the sharingans threat so getting him in genjutsu will be extremely difficult and samaheda should help with that not to mention samahedas size and reach means he does not need to be precise in his attacks each parry will suck sasukes chakra and his strength will overwhelm him...

he can use gigantic suitons to push sasuke and water dome is a death sentence..


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> What makes you think kakuzu would have a chance against Kn4 Naruto ? He was canonically trolled by base Naruto with a Bunshin feint.



 Actually, that was KN0 Naruto, but that gives us more of reason to think that Base Naruto was average at best at that point in time.

 Whether or not KN3 Naruto can't beat Hebi Sasuke is debatable as in context, Oro was getting a kick out of mocking Naruto for failing to save Sasuke, so it's possible that Orochimaru said that just to taunt him instead of actually believing that KN3 Naruto < Hebi Sasuke.


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## Stermor (Feb 15, 2015)

orochimaru ganks sasuke easily... superior in pretty much everything.. hell orochimaru could probebly just talk hebi sasuke to death.. 

sasuke is not killing kin and gin either.. the chance both get hit by pointblank kirin is just about non exsistant. and nothing else sasuke has is going to do anything to them.. 

gaara pretty much destroys any form of sasuke without ps.. they just don't really have anything effectivly combat gaara's flying and huge ammount of sand that can seal him.. 

kisame is lol again. sasuke only shot is setting up kirin.. but a single swipe from kisame is going to rape his chakra supply so badly that he won't have the chakra to setup.. 

kirin is a idiotic move.. and should never be preformed in combat. the windup time it takes.. and then the little dance he has ot do to fire it.. if itachi was fighting to kill a single kunai to the face would have stopped it.. and just going cqc means sasuke can also never get off kirin(without himself dieing)


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## Icegaze (Feb 15, 2015)

If kirin is an idiotic move to set up so is frog song 
Kirin takes less time and is a very easy move to set up against an airborn target like gaara 

While I do agree Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru . Knocking a person out with genjutsu works just fine . Orochimaru has shown no resistance to Genjutsu . 11 year old itachi fucked him over with it


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## Bonly (Feb 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Orochimaru has shown no resistance to Genjutsu . 11 year old itachi fucked him over with it



Actually when Orochi was caught in Itachi's genjutsu you can see him slowly resisting the effects of the paralyzing genjutsu by moving his hands together.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Actually when Orochi was caught in Itachi's genjutsu you can see him slowly resisting the effects of the paralyzing genjutsu by moving his hands together.



 Which is hardly anything notable at all. Itachi could have just chopped his head off if he had wanted to.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> If kirin is an idiotic move to set up so is frog song
> Kirin takes less time and is a very easy move to set up against an airborn target like gaara
> 
> While I do agree Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru . Knocking a person out with genjutsu works just fine . Orochimaru has shown no resistance to Genjutsu . 11 year old itachi fucked him over with it



What if Gaara flies right above Sasuke? They both die but Gaara can stop Kirin from happening as Sasuke needs Ama to speed it up.


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## Empathy (Feb 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Oro was implied to be stronger and Sasuke admitted it, so thus, Oro should kill Hebi Sasuke.



Pre-Hebi Sasuke admitted to that being the only reason he could defeat him, as he was referring to himself at the previous juncture he fought him in, where he was much weaker. There's a good chance that Sasuke could be stronger than him _after_ he absorbed Orochimaru and gained his abilities, though. I believe it's supported by portrayal for the same reasons _Sennin_ Naruto surpassed Jiraiya or that Sakura surpassed Tsunade by the end of the series.



Icegaze said:


> Orochimaru simply couldn't die by the silly attacks from kn4.



"_Even for me, being hit by such highly concentrated chakra would spell out . . . *unavoidable death*_"



> Even if orochimaru was healthy he still won't have been able to take over sasuke body . He failed to do so with kid itachi



Sasuke conceded that the only reason he could defeat Orochimaru was his poor health, so there's a fair chance Orochimaru could've succeeded if he were healthy (or at least, Sasuke thought so). There's no evidence that Orochimaru swallowed Itachi in his white snake form, which he would need to do to initiate _Fushi Tensei_. If you assumed that it occurred off-panel, then that is dwelling into the realm of speculation. 



Icegaze said:


> How would he kill someone who can lol genjutsu him for shits and giggles



Not only was Orochimaru attempting to form the seal to break genjutsu, which Itachi preempted by cutting off his hand (thus breaking him out anyway, and also indicating Itachi thought Orochimaru had a chance to break it) — but the same genjutsu Sasuke put him in, Orochimaru is later shown to be free from; entailing that he probably broke it (or that Sasuke let him out for no reason whatsoever). [1] [2]



> Kakuzu would also dominate kn4 actually most people with durability would beat the silly chakra monster with no thought process



Kakuzu's got nothing to hurt it and nothing to stop _Bijuudama_ from killing him.



> Orochimaru did say even at kn3 naruto was much weaker than sasuke .



Sasuke possesses the ability to suppress the Kyuubi, so he might've just been able to prevent KN4 from happening. Taken into context, Orochimaru was just trying to anger Naruto, so his honesty in that statement is dubious. Nevertheless, most things with the potential to outright kill Orochimaru wouldn't be able to beat KN4 with _ease_, no less Pre-Hebi Sasuke of all people.



> Doubt kn4 closed the gap



The difference between version one KN3 and version two KN4 is laughably considerable. They're treated as entirely separate beasts by both Jiraiya (who warned Kakashi of the distinct and massive disparity between three and four tails) and Orochimaru, who was laughing at KN3, and recognized a significant threat to his life in KN4. Do I really need to list the far greater abilities KN4 possesses? How can you of all people smugly suggest someone go back and re-read those chapters?



> You should reread the chapter .



You're the one who should re-read the chapter before telling others to, if you don't recognize blatantly incorrect things like Orochimaru recognizing KN4 totally could've killed him.



Kazekage94 said:


> You bring up things that are pointless. Gaara has clearly never been caught in a genjutsu and has techniques to deal with them. Watch your self.



I must've been mistaken when the Nidaime Mizukage's genjutsu was definitely working on Gaara. If anything's pointless, it'd be the silly notion that if Gaara's never been in a situation where he's under the influence of genjutsu, it'd indicate he's immune to it. It's not like we don't know if genjutsu works on Gaara (we know for a fact it does, and there's nothing to suggest it doesn't). If you're referring to Gaara's _Daisan no Me_, it's connected to his optic nerve and thus a suitable means to cast genjutsu through. Unless you're talking about Gaara feeling Sasuke's footsteps to fight him, which he'd be hard-pressed to do effectively. Sasuke would need to be standing on his sand for that to even work, and it's not like they're fighting in a desert.



NarutoX28 said:


> The only way Sasuke can win this is genjutsu, but if he could, then in all likelihood, he could've just lolgenjutsu'd Deidara to win instead of using genjutsu that Deidara could perceive.



Deidara had to specifically train his left eye for years to be able to see through sharingan illusions. Otherwise, Deidara would've been beaten with the same ease Itachi beat him with. 



> Of course, Oro does state Sasuke's genjutsu is the same one Itachi used which fodderized him, so it's possible Sasuke would win only with lolgenjutsu if he can land it on him.



Orochimaru was gesturing to make the seal that breaks genjutsu, to which Itachi responded by severing his hand, indicating that Itachi recognized Orochimaru had a good chance to break free. The same genjutsu that Orochimaru said was on the same level as Itachi, Orochimaru is later shown out of and advancing toward Sasuke, implying that Orochimaru probably broke out of it.



> Edit: However, Oro's Hydra technique allows him to shield himself from Genjutsu while he can just pressure Sasuke with his Hydra.



How does Orochimaru's _Yamata no Jutsu_ protect from genjutsu in any way? Orochimaru still has to see his opponent through it, making him susceptible to genjutsu. Orochimaru could avoid eye-contact by using snakes to sense vibrations in the same Kabuto did, which is a good point you could've brought up.



Icegaze said:


> While I do agree Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru . Knocking a person out with genjutsu works just fine . Orochimaru has shown no resistance to Genjutsu . 11 year old itachi fucked him over with it



_Kirin_ would leave zero trace of Orochimaru to regenerate from and kill him in the same that KN4's _Bijuudama_ could've killed him and left no trace (unless someone facilitated his resurrection, but that's beside the point).



NarutoX28 said:


> Which is hardly anything notable at all. Itachi could have just chopped his head off if he had wanted to.



Sasuke chopped Orochimaru into pieces, including at the neck, and he just connected himself and got back up. Cutting his head off won't do any good. KN4 bifurcated him right in half, and it made him smile. He deemed such injuries, "_insignificant_." [1] [2] [3] [4]



Kazekage94 said:


> What if Gaara flies right above Sasuke? They both die but Gaara can stop Kirin from happening as Sasuke needs Ama to speed it up.



Gaara has no knowledge to know what Sasuke would be attempting, or to be privy of _Kirin's_ range. To add, Sasuke's fast enough to get away from Gaara, who almost always remains stationary unless he knows he can't. Sasuke's perfectly capable of preparing it without needing a technique he can't even use himself (_Amaterasu_). 


*Spoiler*: _Databook III—Katon: Gouryuuka no Jutsu_ 





> Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique (火遁・豪龍火の術, Katon: Gouryuuka no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, Supplementary, All ranges
> User: Uchiha Sasuke
> 
> ...


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## Bonly (Feb 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Which is hardly anything notable at all. Itachi could have just chopped his head off if he had wanted to.



Does you finding it "hardly anything notable at all" change the fact that it shows some resistance to genjutsu from Orochi which Icegaze said that Orochi had no resistance to?


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## Empathy (Feb 15, 2015)

richard lewis said:


> Your right I forgot he didn't use all swords. however the only blow base bee landed is when he scratched kisame with his raiton enhanced pencil, so it was a very light wound.



He also stabbed him in the shoulder. Keep in mind that if Samehada didn't have the intrinsic ability to absorb chakra (which really isn't a testament to Kisame's kenjutsu aptitude), that would've put a hole in Kisame. [_Link_]



> Ei has a tendancy to charge his opponents head on since 90% of the time they can't even hurt him due to raiton no yori. I'd wager he could have avoided sasuke's chidori if he wanted to, considering his father was able to dodge FRS from KCM naruto at close range twice.



A relies on his speed to protect him from injury, where his durability is secondary; it's just the opposite with his father. I'm sure he could've avoided it if Sasuke just charged straight him with _Chidori_ and he tried to dodge at first. But A and Sasuke were charging toward each other at close proximity and Sasuke was able to outmaneuver and counterattack him. [_Link_]



> Since when can sasuke regenerate? He can use oral rebirth but sasuke stated that it drains his chakra so he could probably only do it once or twice.



That still constitutes regeneration as far as I'm concerned. If Sasuke can summon Manda (and remember, the size of the summon is directly proportional to the chakra expenditure), cast genjutsu onto it, climb inside and use jikukan ninjutsu to have Suigetsu summon them out, before _C0_ could kill him and on top of all the jutsu he used before when he was already nearly out of chakra — then I'm sure he can manage to regenerate more than once. Never mind all the jutsu he used leading up to it against Itachi.



> Sharingan users have to stand still when performing genjutsu, thats one of it's weaknesses "chiyo explained this in their fight with itachi". Itachi is the only person thats showcased the ability to move around while using genjutsu. Sasuke genjutsu isn'tt doing much other than creating a distraction like it did against dierdara, I don't really see it being a major game changer.



When did Chiyo ever state that and say Itachi was the only exception? Sasuke cast genjutsu on Danzo while moving. [1] A distraction is more than enough to inflict a fatal blow, and Sasuke can paralyze Kisame with genjutsu as well. 



> Kisame isn't stupid, if he see's sasuke firing katons up into the sky he's probably put them out with his suitons. He wouldn't just stand there and watch him do it. Sasuke can't use katons and genjutsu at the same time so IDK what genjutsu is gunna. Kisame's suitons are so huge even from a distance he could put out any of sasuke's katons.



If he paralyzes him or uses genjutsu to conceal the katons, it'd work perfectly. If katons were fired nowhere near Kisame, why wouldn't he just stand there? He doesn't have any knowledge of it, so he'd have no idea what Sasuke's doing and wouldn't be inclined to stop no perceived threat to him. He'd just think he missed. He'd have to go out of his way to move toward them and intercept in the air, which he may not even be capable of doing in time. His suitons aren't so big that they block out the entire sky.



> manda is gunna have a hard time fighting hundreds of sharks while underwater trying to hold it's breath. Not to mention sasuke also has to breath and he can hold his breath nearly as long as manda can.



I'm sure they'd manage. Manda can go underground if they really need to escape the water that badly. If Sasuke's inside his mouth, then he'd have air. Manda's large enough where he'd take up pretty much all the room in the dome.



> To be honest water dome =  sasuke loose, he cant use katons underwater which means no karin. Manda is at a disadvantage against kisame's sharks b/c theres just so many of them. Sasuke might get luck and kill kisame b4 thing get serious but kisame can put sasuke down if he pulls out his big guns early "which is what he usually does"



I never said Kisame can't win this. My point was merely that it isn't a given he would do it so easily, where explanation isn't even warranted. I think Manda could get Sasuke out of _Suiro Sameodori_, but it's fine if you don't.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Pre-Hebi Sasuke admitted to that being the only reason he could defeat him, as he was referring to himself at the previous juncture he fought him in, where he was much weaker. There's a good chance that Sasuke could be stronger than him _after_ he absorbed Orochimaru and gained his abilities, though. I believe it's supported by portrayal for the same reasons _Sennin_ Naruto surpassed Jiraiya or that Sakura surpassed Tsunade by the end of the series.


 
Context, if you truly believe Sasuke did get much stronger, it would've been meaningless to say that the only reason he defeated Orochimaru due to his illness would've been irrelevant when Karin was surprised by how much he struggled against Deidara. It was obvious he wasn't on Orochimaru's level or he'd have acknowledged Deidara's skill instead of doing the opposite. Kishi made it clear that Sasuke was inferior to Orochimaru at this point in time. 




> Deidara had to specifically train his left eye for years to be able to see through sharingan illusions. Otherwise, Deidara would've been beaten with the same ease Itachi beat him with.



 Orochimaru could still perceive that was a basic genjutsu yet he couldn't counter it. Instead of relying on genjutsu to weaken Deidara, he resorted to genjutsu to deceive Deidara as in all likelihood, that would've been easily countered and we know Deidara himself doesn't have many methods to counter genjutsu in the first place. 



> Orochimaru was gesturing to make the seal that breaks genjutsu, to which Itachi responded by severing his hand, indicating that Itachi recognized Orochimaru had a good chance to break free. The same genjutsu that Orochimaru said was on the same level as Itachi, Orochimaru is later shown out of and advancing toward Sasuke, implying that Orochimaru probably broke out of it.




 True, but that in itself is an indication that Sasuke can just render Orochimaru's paralyzed body useless by just chopping his hand off, and thus, can't do anything about it as his paralyzed body with his chakra disrupted won't be able to regenerate any limb, so then he can just decapitate him and leave him with a headless body.

 Though that is quite frankly a good point that Orochimaru wasn't totally fodderized by the genjutsu though I think Orochimaru's advancement and confidence had more to do with closing in on the end of the ritual and that Sasuke himself was believed to have nothing counter it rather than Orochimaru actually breaking out of the genjutsu.




> How does Orochimaru's _Yamata no Jutsu_ protect from genjutsu in any way? Orochimaru still has to see his opponent through it, making him susceptible to genjutsu. Orochimaru could avoid eye-contact by using snakes to sense vibrations in the same Kabuto did, which is a good point you could've brought up.



 Which pretty much means he doesn't need to see his opponent while using Hydra in the first place.




> Sasuke chopped Orochimaru into pieces, including at the neck, and he just connected himself and got back up. Cutting his head off won't do any good. KN4 bifurcated him right in half, and it made him smile. He deemed such injuries, "_insignificant_." [1] [2] [3] [4]



 I agree with that, but considering the effect the genjutsu has on Orochimaru, his chakra levels will be disrupted to the point of being unable to regenerate like he was unable to regenerate his hand against Itachi. The reason why Orochimaru had such resistance or confidence against Sasuke was likely because they were caught in Orochimaru's dimension which leads to Orochimaru undeniably having the advantage.


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## Empathy (Feb 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Context, if you truly believe Sasuke did get much stronger, it would've been meaningless to say that the only reason he defeated Orochimaru due to his illness would've been irrelevant when Karin was surprised by how much he struggled against Deidara. It was obvious he wasn't on Orochimaru's level or he'd have acknowledged Deidara's skill instead of doing the opposite. Kishi made it clear that Sasuke was inferior to Orochimaru at this point in time.



Sasuke got stronger after he defeated and absorbed Orochimaru. He only absorbed Orochimaru and got stronger after he defeated him, meaning he was weaker when he fought him and before he absorbed him. It'd be out of context if you didn't acknowledge the distinction between Pre-Hebi and Hebi Sasuke. Karin was flustered and merely said that, as the man renown for defeating Orochimaru, Sasuke should've done better. It doesn't relate to power so much as his reputation to uphold, and it doesn't concern the fact that Sasuke grew exponentially stronger after defeating Orochimaru by taking over his body. Karin didn't witness Sasuke absorb Orochimaru and likely wasn't aware he'd gotten significantly stronger. Pre-Hebi Sasuke defeating Orochimaru only because the latter was weakened, is irrelevant to Hebi Sasuke.



> Orochimaru could still perceive that was a basic genjutsu yet he couldn't counter it. Instead of relying on genjutsu to weaken Deidara, he resorted to genjutsu to deceive Deidara as in all likelihood, that would've been easily countered and we know Deidara himself doesn't have many methods to counter genjutsu in the first place.



In Orochimaru's case, the illusion wasn't concealed and merely conveyed the sense of paralysis. Deceptive illusions were used on Deidara in an attempt to trick him, and there's no evidence that one version is stronger or more potent than the other; nor is there any evidence that one would be used instead of the other for any reason other than arbitrary preference. Deidara has an anti-genjutsu left eye, which is a better method than most for countering genjutsu. 



> True, but that in itself is an indication that Sasuke can just render Orochimaru's paralyzed body useless by just chopping his hand off, and thus, can't do anything about it as his paralyzed body with his chakra disrupted won't be able to regenerate any limb, so then he can just decapitate him and leave him with a headless body.



After Itachi cut his hand off, the physical pain sensation would snap him out of genjutsu just as with most other genjutsu (Kurenai biting her lip, for example). Orochimaru was obviously able to eventually regenerate an arm, because he had one in the present and even kept the one Itachi cut off as a keepsake. He obviously wasn't still paralyzed after Itachi cut him, because he moved and grabbed his arm afterward. Orochimaru would just reattach his severed head.



> Though that is quite frankly a good point that Orochimaru wasn't totally fodderized by the genjutsu though I think Orochimaru's advancement and confidence had more to do with closing in on the end of the ritual and that Sasuke himself was believed to have nothing counter it rather than Orochimaru actually breaking out of the genjutsu.



Orochimaru breaking it is the only real, logical explanation for how he got out the second time it was used.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> What if Gaara flies right above Sasuke? They both die but Gaara can stop Kirin from happening as Sasuke needs Ama to speed it up.



 
That was mean he created the jutsu on the spot 
Which makes no sense for sasuke to know so much about a jutsu he just created 
Sasuke doesn't need Amaterasu. You loose the very little credibility you have when you say that
Your good till it becomes about gaara then you make shit up to have a point 
Why ?


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 16, 2015)

Amaterasu was still needed to help speed up the reaction. 
Gemjutsu is useless, it wasn't even strong enough  at this time. 
Gaara can position the eye anyhere so Sasuke won't be looking for it with no knowledge. 

Sasuke isn't quick enough to outrun a Tsunami.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> :faceThat was mean he created the jutsu on the spot
> Which makes no sense for sasuke to know so much about a jutsu he just created
> Sasuke doesn't need Amaterasu. You loose the very little credibility you have when you say that
> Your good till it becomes about gaara then you make shit up to have a point
> Why ?



You can say he didn't need it but it clearly helped and without it, it would take longer. 
My point still stands. I never made anything up. 

You people are clearly ignorant of you believe Hebi Sasuke beats Gaara.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2015)

Empathy said:


> It'd be out of context if you didn't acknowledge the distinction between Pre-Hebi and Hebi Sasuke.



I don't know if I would say that makes it irrelevant to Hebi Sasuke.

If Karin claims that Sasuke should have done better _because_ he beat Orochimaru she is implicitly saying that Orochimaru would do better than Sasuke did were he in the same position. If she didn't think that, then it wouldn't follow from Sasuke beating Orochimaru that he would do better than he did. That means whether or not Karin witnessed Sasuke absorb Orochimaru is irrelevant. She _didn't need to_ see what happened back then because she was berating the current Sasuke's performance _just now_, which Sasuke himself would know. So sure, it was his pre-Hebi self that defeated Orochimaru because he was weakened, but it was his Hebi self whose performance was being compared to their expectations of (a healthier) Orochimaru, and _that_ was what Sasuke was responding to when he said "well Orochimaru was already weakened".

If that absorption had changed everything then it should have been in Sasuke's reply; he couldn't have justified the amount of difficulty he had by just leaving it at "well Orochimaru was already weakened", he would have had to throw in "and hey, Deidara is up there with him" or something like that, too. His justification only works if his performance just then wasn't greater than a healthy Orochimaru's could be.

If Hebi Sasuke is stronger than Orochimaru it's because he wasn't aware that the actual Orochimaru could spring out of his Curse Mark (meaning he was underestimating himself back when he was talking to Karin- very possible, I think), but...it might be worth noting that the databook claims the Orochimaru who emerged from Sasuke's Curse Mark was using "the last of his strength" (so he apparently wasn't in particularly great shape then either, and since Sasuke wasn't talking about weakened Orochimaru...well...).


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Amaterasu was still needed to help speed up the reaction.
> Gemjutsu is useless, it wasn't even strong enough  at this time.
> Gaara can position the eye anyhere so Sasuke won't be looking for it with no knowledge.
> 
> Sasuke isn't quick enough to outrun a Tsunami.



 No it was not. Amaterasu was used to help strengthen the power of his Kirin which Zetsu stated himself. It did not speed up the reaction time.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> No it was not. Amaterasu was used to help strengthen the power of his Kirin which Zetsu stated himself. It did not speed up the reaction time.



Scan please?


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Amaterasu was still needed to help speed up the reaction.
> Gemjutsu is useless, it wasn't even strong enough  at this time.
> Gaara can position the eye anyhere so Sasuke won't be looking for it with no knowledge.
> 
> Sasuke isn't quick enough to outrun a Tsunami.



Scan that it wasn't strong enough to fool Gaara at this time please loooool
Yet it was strong enough to trap orochimaru
Who clearly exceeds gaara in genjutsu

Ah that fan bias !! It's strong in you 

Gaara can't poisotion the eyes on his face anywhere sasuke can look into those eyes 

His 3rd eye is an extension of that and is linked to his optic nerve . If his optic nerve is being fucked with that eye would be as well 

Gaara fan who doesn't know how Gaara Jutsu works 

Deidara who is slower than sasuke was quick enough to outrun all of Gaara sand in a bloody desert


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Scan please?



 Looking back, I realized the scan is open to interpretation, so


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Scan that it wasn't strong enough to fool Gaara at this time please loooool
> Yet it was strong enough to trap orochimaru
> Who clearly exceeds gaara in genjutsu
> 
> ...


Why are you guys so clueless?

When Gaara was fighting the 2nd his third eye was used to help stop the jutsu hence putting it anywhere. Sasuke is not going to look for a small eye 50 meters  in the air.

Also what you don't get is that, Deidara has fucking flight. Hebi Sasuke doesn't. He can't dodge a fucking Tsunami, Deidara can just fly over it. Come with information. There is no bias but clearly War Arc Gaara is above Hebi Sasuke.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Looking back, I realized the scan is open to interpretation, so



That's what I thought.


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## Empathy (Feb 17, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke can fly.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 18, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Hebi Sasuke can fly.



No he can't. He can glide but he has never shown to fly. 
Those are giant hands not wings.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> No he can't. He can glide but he has never shown to fly.
> Those are giant hands not wings.



 Link removed

 I got some bad news for ya mate. 

 Link removed

 Just to emphasize his point.


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## Icegaze (Feb 19, 2015)

Burned kazekage94
Sasuke can fly 
Sorry 

Also the 3rd eye didn't break mizukage genjutsu 
It was used to keep an eye on onoki 

That doesn't at all show sasuke genjutsu doesn't troll him for sport


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 25, 2015)

No he cant. 
Deidara was oblivious the entire time. He can use those to glide, but he can't fly. 
Which explains why he was on the ground for most of the fight. 

Mizukage genjutsu isn't the same. Don't compare them. Against a Sharingan user, it is unlikely to happen. 

I don't know how I got burned. Those are still giant hands.


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

It said on panel Sasuke could fly with those wings 
Also it's the cursed seal of heaven 
The denial is strong in you . Keep trying 

Also notning stops sasukw from summoning manda then genjutsu it 

Gaara wojd be hard pressed to slow down something like manda. and still keep track of sasuke

Gaara doesn't have genjutsu immunity . Keep dreaming


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## Empathy (Feb 26, 2015)

For the record, I think Onoki probably stands at the top of the mid Kages, not Kisame. 

I'll probably get to FlamingRain's post eventually, once I psych myself up in the mirror enough or something (I'll edit it in later).


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> No he cant.
> Deidara was oblivious the entire time. He can use those to glide, but he can't fly.
> Which explains why he was on the ground for most of the fight.
> 
> ...



 Majority of the time being spent with only one wing which prevented him from flying.

 The reason CS2 Sasuke stayed on the ground when he evaded Deidara's mines was simply because a direct attack would do nothing as Deidara would have easily detected that and just fired another bomb. This is why he used the Shurikens as a diversion to easily tip Deidara off-guard and get within range to strike him. 

 So basically, a direct aerial assault for Sasuke would not have been the most ideal strategy to use.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> It said on panel Sasuke could fly with those wings
> Also it's the cursed seal of heaven
> The denial is strong in you . Keep trying
> 
> ...



What don't you get about oblivious? 
That was Deidara's theory but we have never seen Sasuke straight up fly with those wins. 
Fucking Ay can reach those heights. 

Never said he has immunity, it's just a counter to it. 

Those aren't wings. They are giant hands dude.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 28, 2015)

> NarutoX28;52977406]Majority of the time being spent with only one wing which prevented him from flying.
> 
> The reason CS2 Sasuke stayed on the ground when he evaded Deidara's mines was simply because a direct attack would do nothing as Deidara would have easily detected that and just fired another bomb. This is why he used the Shurikens as a diversion to easily tip Deidara off-guard and get within range to strike him.
> 
> So basically, a direct aerial assault for Sasuke would not have been the most ideal strategy to use.



Which is what you believe. 
Any ninja can jump. Clearly those aren't wings, and they were used more of as a defense mechanisim. 

Just because a character says a certain thing doesn't make it true.  
Look at A, and Orochimaru.


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