# Troyse22's Official Tier List



## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2017)

So there can be no questions on where I view who

I won't be doing too many variations on characters to the point of redundancy (1 armed eyeless Mads etc)

I'm leaving out some Otsutsuki's because some of it is nothing but speculation (Asura and Indra for example)

I won't be doing Jounin level because that's boring as shit and nobody cares.

God Tier:

1. Madara Uchiha (Full Rinnegan, Shinju etc.)
2. Kaguya Otsutsuki
3. Naruto Uzumaki (Current)
4. Sasuke Uchiha (Current)
5. Hagoromo Otsutsuki
6. Madara Uchiha (1 Rinnegan, Pre Shinju JJ)
7. Obito Uchiha (JJ)
8. Might Gai (8th Gate)
9. Kakashi Hatake (DMS, Rikudo Chakra)
10. VOTE II Naruto
11. VOTE II Sasuke

Top Tier:
Orochimaru (ET Hokage)
Kabuto Yakushi (ET Army)
Edo Mads (Gokage Fight)
Hashirama Senju (VOTE)
Madara Uchiha (VOTE)
Naruto Uzumaki (BM/BSM)
Gaara (Adult, Desert)

High Tier:

Obito Uchiha (1 MS, 1 Rinnegan)
Kisame Hoshigaki (Samehada)
Nagato Uzumaki (Edo, In control of himself)
Nagato Uzumaki (Living, mobile)


*half tier gap*
EMS Sasuke Uchiha (Juubito Battle)
Prime Hanzo
Killer Bee
Itachi Uchiha (Edo)
Itachi Uchiha (Living, Healthy, Full Eyesight)
Tobirama
Minato Namikaze (Jinc)
A4
Minato Namikaze (Living)
KCM Naruto
War SM Naruto
Six Paths of Pain

Mid Tier:
A3
Muu/Gengetsu
Onoki
Might Gai (7th Gate)
Kisame Hoshigaki (Samehadaless/Standard sword)
Gaara (War)
*half tier gap*
Kakashi Hatake (War, MS)
Sasuke Uchiha (MS, Post Danzo)
Orochimaru (Arms, P1 ET)
Pain Arc SM Naruto
Deidara
Sasori
Kakuzu
Jiraiya (SM, Fukasaku and Shima)

Low tier:
Chojuro (Adult, Mizukage)
Mei (War)
Darui (Adult, Raikage)
Kakashi (Hokage)
Jiraiya (Base)
Hiruzen Sarutobi (Old, Oro fight)
Hidan
Rasa
Kurotsuchi
Tsunade

Garbage Tier:
Sakura (Adult)
Sakura (War)
Sakura (Pre War)
Sakura (BoS)
Sakura (Genin/Kid)

I could be forgetting someone, but if I remember them i'll add them where I feel appropriate

Reactions: Funny 10 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 3 | Lewd 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 13, 2017)

Oh no...

Youve gone and done it now @Troyse22 

Opened Pandora's box...

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh no...
> 
> Youve gone and done it now @Troyse22
> 
> Opened Pandora's box...



How so


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> How so





WorldsStrongest said:


> I also personally dont like the idea of posting tier lists
> 
> *Youre not gonna please everyone and everyone is gonna have somethin to say about pretty well everything*
> 
> I mean if it becomes a thing ill gladly post mine...Pretty sure i have in the past anyway but still


Based on bolded alone i woulda just stayed away from the whole concept

Havent even read your list yet im just sayin


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## Topace (Sep 13, 2017)

Wottice? Tsunade being low tier but kisame being high kage trololol ok. SM jiraiya being bottom of mid kage trololol ok.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Serene Grace (Sep 13, 2017)

>Pein at the bottom of high kage
>Jiraiya at the bottom of low kage
>Itachi above BSM Naruto
>Kaguya below Madara

*Spoiler*: __ 








Lol

Reactions: Winner 1


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## oiety (Sep 13, 2017)

ignoring everything else here for a second

why are the Juubito versions of BSM Naruto, KCM Minato, and EMS Sasuke below Itachi Hanzo and Kisame? Nagato is at least arguable given Rinnegan mastery bullshit, and Rinne Obito is at least not him getting stomped, but the rest? Really, truly?

also you forgot Gaara, you forgot Mei, forgot Konan, forgot Hidan, forgot Mifune, forgot Toneri, forgot Momoshiki, forgot Kinshiki...

Reactions: Agree 2


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## hbcaptain (Sep 13, 2017)

Itachi, Hanzo, Kisame above BSM Naruto, EMS Sasuke and BM Minato
SM, KCM, BM and BSM Naruto in the same tier
Base Minato and KJ Minato at the exact same level.
Sannin below Mid Akatsuki members.
etc, etc, etc,
A lot of bullshit in this tier list

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 13, 2017)

A real challenge would be people making the tier lists and justifying them using the manga and other resources, _*without *_misinterpreting them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## oiety (Sep 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> _*without *_misinterpreting them.



that's impossible unless Kishimoto is standing there watching them type, tbh.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Monty Burns (Sep 13, 2017)

Kakashi, Gai and JJ Obito above VoTE 2 Naruto and Sasuke??? 
JJ Madara above Kaguya despite it being stated that Kaguya was on a different level??? 
Kisame and Itachi above BSM Naruto??? 
JJ Madara above current Naruto???

Reactions: Winner 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 13, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> JJ Madara above current Naruto???


To be fair there is 0 wrong with this

Its complete speculation where the adult versions of naruto/sasuke sit individually relative to mads full power

We havent seen Mads full power ever

Regardless of how anyone feels about it or any excuses they have for it, its the truth

And i mean think about it logically...

Naruto has Kurama and RSM going for him...

Mads also had Kurama...But he also had Kurama + The full power of the other 8 bijus + RSM + Rinnegan + The Shinju + The Third Eye

Not to mention narutos clones are literally useless against him and him alone in the naruto verse...


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## StandingMan (Sep 13, 2017)

Everyone knows Kisame would beat Madara...

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Monty Burns (Sep 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> To be fair there is 0 wrong with this
> 
> Its complete speculation where the adult versions of naruto/sasuke sit individually relative to mads full power
> 
> ...


We know Kaguya >>> JJ Madara. We know teen Naruto on his lonesome pressured Kaguya. We know Naruto's Senpõ Chõ Bijū Rasenshuriken partially released the Bijūs from Kaguya. We know tired base Naruto's Chõ Õdama Rasengan sent Momoshiki (who's superior to JJ Madara) to outta space. We know teen Naruto and teen Sasuke (who were rookies with their Rikūdo enhancements) were casually countering JJ Madara's arsenal. We know adult Naruto > teen Naruto since now he has 100% Kurama, complete mastery over his powers and more experience. Therefore adult Naruto > JJ Madara. Why cannot JJ Madara be surpassed? The founders are too overrated.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Optimistic 1


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## The_Conqueror (Sep 13, 2017)

So this is what Cancer In the eyes look like .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ultrafragor (Sep 13, 2017)

ooooh dis gon b gud


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## TrollbitoUchiha (Sep 13, 2017)

You forgot to put Hinata in garbage tier...

And Obito is better than most of the top tier listed here.

Obito has taken on Naruto, Kakashi, and Guy and barely got a scratch on him.

Rinnegan-sharingan Obito with gunbai mid to high diffs that top tier list.


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## Hitachi Uchiha (Sep 13, 2017)

Someone forgot to take their wank goggles off.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## Arles Celes (Sep 13, 2017)

Kisame should be in the Top Tier.

Why so low man?


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## Kyu (Sep 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> 1. Madara Uchiha (Full Rinnegan, Shinju etc.)
> 2. Kaguya Otsutsuki

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 13, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> We know Kaguya >>> JJ Madara.


From this alone i can tell you are merely gonna use ABC logic to arrive at a conclusion...Which doesnt work in this verse at all...

For one thing we dont know the size of the gap between them so i have no ifdea why yu are pushing the agenda that we do...

The only statement we have to indicate their relativity to one another in a combat scenario is that Kaguya has more chakra...Thats it...

And if chakra volume settled any and all battles and was a definitive representation of how fighter stack up against one another than your argument has already fallen flat on its face because as a JJ, mads shits on naruto in chakra reserves...

Does that make Mads>>>Naruto?

*Im not pushing Mads>Kaguya btw*...Figured id get that out there before you put words in my mouth

Im just saying you cant quantify the gap


Monty Burns said:


> We know teen Naruto on his lonesome pressured Kaguya.


Half of the time this was due to clone feinting...Which doesnt work on madara

Not to mention...Kaguya dumb as shit...

Mads? Not so much


Monty Burns said:


> We know teen Naruto and teen Sasuke (who were rookies with their Rikūdo enhancements) were casually countering JJ Madara's arsenal.


Casually countering his casual aresenal

And that was also before he attained both rinnegan

After which he used CT and Limbo literally forgot about them...They couldnt sidestep his CTs or clones in time to preemptively stop what could have been the end of the world

That seems a bit far from "casually countering his entire arsenal" considering they didnt even counter it really...

And its far from his full rsenal


Monty Burns said:


> Why cannot JJ Madara be surpassed? The founders are too overrated.


I didnt say he couldnt be surpassed

I merely said there its hard to quantify one way or the other and theres nothing wrong with putting mads above naruto individually

Dont twist my words


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## AdamWiz (Sep 13, 2017)

Kisame above Edo Itachi? 


Troyse22 said:


> 1. Madara Uchiha (Full Rinnegan, Shinju etc.)
> 2. Kaguya Otsutsuki

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

Did not read the tier list, but I am pretty sure it's bad.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Skywalker (Sep 13, 2017)

Kisame being above Nagato, Itachi, and BSM Naruto?


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 13, 2017)

So much of this contradicts the manga.

Kisame has legit 22 people he can't beat below him. Not in feats or portrayal.

The Jiraiya hate boner is real.
Etc.

Edo Madara thinks Tsunade is a strong and worthy Kage, you seem to disagree.


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## Mar55 (Sep 14, 2017)

From the very outset, this is nothing but nonsense. You would've been better off keeping this to yourself. Though it was probably too late for that anyway.

Seriously though, Itachi and Kisame above even KCM Naruto is a bit much. But above BM is pure wank, being above BSM is just idiocy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> From the very outset, this is nothing but nonsense. You would've been better off keeping this to yourself. Though it was probably too late for that anyway.
> 
> Seriously though, Itachi and Kisame above even KCM Naruto is a bit much. But above BM is pure wank, being above BSM is just idiocy.



The difference between BSM and BM is minimal, bordering on non factor, it was only useful because NE was a JJ's weakness.


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## Mar55 (Sep 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> The difference between BSM and BM is minimal, bordering on non factor, it was only useful because NE was a JJ's weakness.


Which is fanon by you, contradicted by the manga itself, and also doesn't address the point as a whole.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Speedyamell (Sep 14, 2017)

I guess it was to be expected
*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Famouss (Sep 14, 2017)

Kaguya should be #1 with Hagoromo as #2. Adult Naruto and Sasuke should be #3 and #4 via power creep. Full Power Madara and DMS Kakashi could dispute for #5, in fact I'd put this hax Kakashi ahead. 8th Gate Gai is surely the bottom/entry level of the God Tiers.

Also why is Kisame so high LUL, he is for sure about a tier below your average high-kage level fighters such as War Kakashi/ 7th Gate Gai/ MS Itachi/ MS Sasuke.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2017)

Famouss said:


> Also why is Kisame so high LUL, he is for sure about a tier below your average high-kage level fighter such as War Kakashi/ 7th Gate Gai/ MS Itachi/ MS Sasuke.



Feats beg to differ.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Sep 14, 2017)

??? Madara above Kaguya?
Hagoromo at 5???
Kisame impossibly high up???
Sannin impossibly low??? 

What is this abomination

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 14, 2017)

oiety said:


> that's impossible unless Kishimoto is standing there watching them type, tbh.



Possible... if they read what they type without letting bias influence them.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2017)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Madara above Kaguya?




You do realize his how insane his Susanoo would be? Now imagine his limbo clones all using it

The difference in intelligence is another reason why I believe what I do.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Sep 14, 2017)

I just have one question @Troyse22, where do you rank Roshi? I mean Kisame > BSM-Naruto, but had a tough time with Roshi? So is Roshi >= BSM-Naruto?


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## Troyse22 (Sep 14, 2017)

Turrin said:


> I just have one question @Troyse22, where do you rank Roshi? I mean Kisame > BSM-Naruto, but had a tough time with Roshi? So is Roshi >= BSM-Naruto?




You're not welcome here, shoo


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## Turrin (Sep 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You're not welcome here, shoo


Come on Troyse, pretty please rank Roshi....


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## BlackHeartedImp (Sep 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You do realize his how insane his Susanoo would be? Now imagine his limbo clones all using it
> 
> The difference in intelligence is another reason why I believe what I do.


Can he beat her is another thing entirely. Sun and moon seals on his hands, I think he could eek out a win considering he was stronger individually than the transmigrants. Is he more powerful in general though? Not at all. Its like Hidan being able to hunt jinchuriki.

The rest of your list still baffles me as well.


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## Matty (Sep 15, 2017)

Shouldn't Kisame be above Madara and Hashirama?


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## Troyse22 (Sep 15, 2017)

Matty said:


> Shouldn't Kisame be above Madara and Hashirama?



No, while I do see Kisame defeating Madara more often than not, I see Madara challenging a superior opponent (Hashirama) while Kisame can't do a thing to Hashi.

Madara>Kisame, it's indisputable.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Pompey magnus (Sep 15, 2017)

Alright, Not as bad as I thought I would be. Apart from the usual Kisame wank, the List could be a lot worse. Definitely seen worse arguments from people held in higher regard.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 3, 2017)

Updated: BSM Naruto is higher
Itachi is lower (both Edo and living)
Gaara (Both adult and War) are up
Sasori is higher
A4 is higher


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## Maverick04 (Dec 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Updated: BSM Naruto is higher
> Itachi is lower (both Edo and living)
> Gaara (Both adult and War) are up
> Sasori is higher
> A4 is higher


It's still shit

Reactions: Funny 6 | Winner 5


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## Topace (Dec 3, 2017)

Kisame above BSM Naruto, Minato, Nagato, tobirama, EMS sasuke , itachi, and gaara?

It’s too early for this


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## sabre320 (Dec 3, 2017)

Jin hagoromo at no 5 when just his chakra halves without juubi were embarasiing juubidara.....
Madara above kaguya......
Bm minato below ei......
Kisame above Bsm naruto ...
Itachi above kcm naruto......
8th gate gai above ashura avatar naruto....
sm naruto above pein....

This list is a atrocity...


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 3, 2017)

A great tier list. 10/10 would read again.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## AdamWiz (Dec 3, 2017)

Suddenly, I can't read.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Ishmael (Dec 3, 2017)

Except for the placement of pein and nagato I have no issue with this list honestly.


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## Mar55 (Dec 3, 2017)

KC said:


> Except for the placement of pein and nagato I have no issue with this list honestly.


That's a bad thing, because this list is flat out trash.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Ishmael (Dec 3, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> That's a bad thing, because this list is flat out trash.



It was either be nice or get reported for flaming him again... If you we're me what would you choose


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> 1. Madara Uchiha (Full Rinnegan, Shinju etc.)
> 2. *Kaguya Otsutsuki*





Troyse22 said:


> 3. Naruto Uzumaki (Current)
> 4. Sasuke Uchiha (Current)
> 5. *Hagoromo Otsutsuki*





Troyse22 said:


> Obito Uchiha (1 MS, 1 Rinnegan)
> *Kisame Hoshigaki (Samehada)*
> Nagato Uzumaki (Edo, In control of himself)
> Naruto Uzumaki (BSM)
> Nagato Uzumaki (Living, mobile)

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 3, 2017)

WHERE THE FUCK IS HIMAWARI

Her exclusion makes the list unworthy by default

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Mar55 (Dec 3, 2017)

KC said:


> It was either be nice or get reported for flaming him again... If you we're me what would you choose


Flame him. Burn it to the ground.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Euraj (Dec 3, 2017)

This is the funniest mess I've read in the NBD, and I didn't even get to see the original.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Ogihci Shirosaki (Dec 4, 2017)

Who got angry and bumped this thre—


Troyse22 said:


> Updated: BSM Naruto is higher
> Itachi is lower (both Edo and living)
> Gaara (Both adult and War) are up
> Sasori is higher
> A4 is higher



What made you change your mind?


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 4, 2017)

@Troyse22 can you exlain how Samehada alone makes a ninja go from being below Gai or Ohnoki to above BSM Naruto, Adult Gaara Pain BM Minato


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## Trancos015 (Dec 11, 2017)

Good list, although I would add several more characters to the God Tier, there are really enough characters that fall into that category even if their abilities were not seen at all. I would add to Hamura who was on par with Hagoromo Pre Jinchuriki, Indra and Asura who in a single panel showed more power than almost all the Top Tier (Asura 5 giant Gudodamas, Indra Perfect Susanoo), Momoshiki and Kinshiki apparently in the Film and Toneri. The same would leave out Madara 1 Rinnegan Pre Shinju, is close to entering that category but it does not seem enough, would be a quasi God Tier, the strongest Top Tier.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 9, 2019)




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## t0xeus (Dec 9, 2019)

Troyse22 said:


> A4
> Tobirama






Troyse22 said:


> Tobirama
> Minato Namikaze (Jinc)


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## Troyse22 (Dec 9, 2019)

t0xeus said:


>



Yeah I'm looking it over and I've changed my mind on some things since then


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## jesusus (Dec 9, 2019)

Why is Gai so low? Hirudora can beat Kisame, break a Susanoo, push back a Juubi Jin and make island AOE winds. Should be high kage at least.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 9, 2019)

jesusus said:


> Why is Gai so low? Hirudora can beat Kisame, break a Susanoo, push back a Juubi Jin and make island AOE winds. Should be high kage at least.



Mostly because he has that one shot, maybe two in him


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2019)

Why

Why 


Troyse22 said:


> Yeah I'm looking it over and I've changed my mind on some things since then


Shoulda just made a new one then


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## Troyse22 (Dec 9, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Why
> 
> Why
> 
> Shoulda just made a new one then



Too much work


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2019)

Troyse22 said:


> Too much work


And answering every critique that you dont agree with from jump street aint work 

Same critique over and over no less


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## jesusus (Dec 9, 2019)

Also how does Kisame with Samehada beat pain?


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## Quipchaque (Dec 9, 2019)

Cherry said:


> @DiscoZoro20
> This ^ (use bro) negging a post from 2 years ago



Yeah... So what? Terrible posts don't age.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 9, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yeah... So what? Terrible posts don't age.


Sounds like I got someone salty from something recent

When the 2016 negs come in


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 9, 2019)

I like Sakura's placement, but the rest seems like you just kinda hit shuffle play


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## Quipchaque (Dec 9, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> I like Sakura's placement, but the rest seems like you just kinda hit shuffle play



That is the case for all our lists because panels and statements can be interpretated in so many different ways. You won't find a list that everyone agrees on. Your own included.

To add my own opinion I think his list is solid and I can see his reasoning even so I won't agree with all of it. Especially the nonsensical edo tensei Orochimaru and Kabuto ratings. That ability is so niche and auto pilot it makes no sense to use that to gauge an individual characters strength and to use that to put them higher than certain characters like Madara, Hashirama, Obito, Nagato and Itachi is ridiculous and goes completely against the established narrative of Kishimoto.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Dec 9, 2019)

Finally someone that doesn't downplay Kisame





*Spoiler*: __ 



Said no one ever.


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## Artistwannabe (Dec 9, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Finally someone that doesn't downplay Kisame
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Come on, Kisame needs his Troyse to defend him as Turrin made a good work of sharkboy with his "Kisame is Jonin" thread


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## Zero890 (Dec 9, 2019)

Troyse22 said:


> So there can be no questions on where I view who
> 
> I won't be doing too many variations on characters to the point of redundancy (1 armed eyeless Mads etc)
> 
> ...



Kisame is low, Jiraiya is so high. Bad tier list.


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## zaddyxx22 (Dec 9, 2019)

not so much a tier list. more like something I can use to wipe my feet on before I enter my house


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## Troyse22 (Dec 9, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Turrin made a good work of sharkboy with his "Kisame is Jonin" thread


"Kisame is Jonin level because of what was said in P1, ignore P2 because addressing his feats and hype there would mean my argument has no leg to stand on"

That's about all I took from it


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## Quipchaque (Dec 9, 2019)

Kisame is no way just jonin level if this is what the above post is about. He is stated to possess the greatest amount of chakra in the Akatsuki, fights evenly with cloaked tailed beasts, 7-gates Gai who is a powerhouse with power and speed comparable to kage characters and took on the whole team 9 with just 30% of his chakra. Additionally he possessed one of the most hax weapons in the series that requires a specific counter to bypass. Imo that is definitely not just jonin level.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Dec 9, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Kisame is no way just jonin level if this is what the above post is about. He is stated to possess the greatest amount of chakra in the Akatsuki, fights evenly with cloaked tailed beasts, 7-gates Gai who is a powerhouse with power and speed comparable to kage characters and took on the whole team 9 with just 30% of his chakra. Additionally he possessed one of the most hax weapons in the series that requires a specific counter to bypass. Imo that is definitely not just jonin level.



Well according to Turrin that's just your run of the mill Jonin level

Kisame would have trouble with ONE of the Sound Four is my favorite


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2019)

zaddyxx22 said:


> not so much a tier list. more like something I can use to wipe my feet on before I enter my house


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## Marvel (Dec 9, 2019)

@LostSelf so I'm assuming he's geeting banned for necroing an almost 3 year thread


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## Cognitios (Dec 9, 2019)

@Troyse22 how high is Killer Bee with samehada?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 9, 2019)

Cognitios said:


> @Troyse22 how high is Killer Bee with samehada?



It doesn't move his position at all.

He hasn't mastered it and he doesn't employ it as consistently and seamlessly as Kisame


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 9, 2019)

Cherry said:


> Sounds like I got someone salty from something recent
> 
> When the 2016 negs come in



LMAO

COMING IN HOT THOSE NEGS!



Troyse22 said:


> High Tier:
> 
> Obito Uchiha (1 MS, 1 Rinnegan)
> Kisame Hoshigaki (Samehada)
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## narut0ninjafan (Dec 9, 2019)

You put retconned Kisame too low on your tier list


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## Mar55 (Dec 9, 2019)

We're still on this wack ass list of wank for Kisame?

View media item 86581

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Vice (Dec 9, 2019)

Damn, Samehada strong aff. Why's it hanging around scrubs like Kisame and Killer Bee for?


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## Bonly (Dec 9, 2019)

Pretty good list, I enjoy it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Marvel (Dec 9, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Pretty good list, I enjoy it


Are you serious Bonly?


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

Marvel said:


> Are you serious Bonly?


He’s trolling, just like anyone that seriously agrees with this shit tier list must be.


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## Vice (Dec 10, 2019)

Troyse22 said:


> No, *while I do see Kisame defeating Madara more often than not*, I see Madara challenging a superior opponent (Hashirama) while Kisame can't do a thing to Hashi.
> 
> Madara>Kisame, it's indisputable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

lol, talking about stop flaming. I don’t have the patience for dumb asses anymore and I’m not being nice about it.

Just ban me and be done with it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> lol, talking about stop flaming. I don’t have the patience for dumb asses anymore and I’m not being nice about it.
> 
> Just ban me and be done with it.


Err... You don't really contribute much to the content of NBD threads these days. Despite the intellectual in your avatar, I've lately just been seeing a lot of whining from you - not actually debating the arguments in the thread - something unbecoming of the name Kisuke Urahara.

Even when I explained to you why older Ay stomps Minato, you didn't even refute the arguments made, and instead pushed forward your agenda / bias / own views.


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## Sufex (Dec 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Err... You don't really contribute much to the content of NBD threads these days. Despite the intellectual in your avatar, I've lately just been seeing a lot of whining from you - not actually debating the arguments in the thread - something unbecoming of the name Kisuke Urahara.
> 
> Even when I explained to you why older Ay stomps Minato, you didn't even refute the arguments made, and instead pushed forward your agenda / bias / own views.


In his defence he is usually a good and detailed poster. Probably just sick of the bullshit like some of us.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Even when I explained to you why older Ay stomps Minato


You mean why the manga is wrong and you're right?


Mad Scientist said:


> your agenda / bias / own views.


Do you have no sense of irony?


Sufex said:


> In his defence he is usually a good and detailed poster. Probably just sick of the bullshit like some of us.


Thanks, love. You're too kind.

Reactions: Like 5


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> You mean why the manga is wrong and you're right?
> 
> Do you have no sense of irony?
> 
> Thanks, love. You're too kind.


Im real glad its not just me who can see @Mad Scientist has really earned the first half of his username


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im real glad its not just me who can see @Mad Scientist has really earned the first half of his username


You know, it's crazy. I always thought you and myself wouldn't get along.

Nowadays I can't remember the last time I disagreed with you. Time really does fly, eh?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> You know, it's crazy. I always thought you and myself wouldn't get along.
> 
> Nowadays I can't remember the last time I disagreed with you. Time really does fly, eh?


Thats weird considering i always viewed you as one of the best around here  

Pretty sure in the multiple debate tourney preps (that all flop) Ive gone on record with such opinions that youd make one of the best Judges

But yeah


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats weird considering i always viewed you as one of the best around here
> 
> Pretty sure in the multiple debate tourney preps (that all flop) Ive gone on record with such opinions that youd make one of the best Judges
> 
> But yeah


You have, and I'm quite humbled by your high opinion of myself. If it means anything, I think you're probably the most consistent poster around. You often entertain poster/arguments that I would never give the time of day, debunking everyone equally. I'm not nearly as patient, nor kind (probably the first time you heard that) about the garbage permeating these forums.

I just assumed our personalities (Sasuke wanka lol) wouldn't mesh. Shows what I know, right?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> I just assumed our personalities (Sasuke wanka lol)


I dont wank Sauce 

Or at least, not by my definitions of wank anyway.

My definition of wank is putting a character against someone AT LEAST 1 tier stronger (Like a Low Kage like Rasa vs a Mid one like Oro for instance) and saying the he wins

Ive never done that with any version of Sasuke

The most youll see me do is pit a mid tier version of Sasuke up against other mid tiers and argue he can win, or a high tier vs a high tier version of sauce and so on.

Which I hardly view as wank as its agreed upon they are comparable in a general sense anyway.

For example, although I have Hashirama as capale of beating Rinnegan Obito like 9/10 times, I, like everyone else, have them in the same tier rigth below Gods. So Id hardly get pissed at someone for saying Rinnegan Obito CAN beat Hashirama, as thats basically a difference of opinion within the same tier which, in the grand scheme, is a pretty marginal difference at best.

When I WOULD draw the line with the above example, would be if someone said Hashi gets stomped by Obito and implies a massive, tier+ wide gap between them, as thats simply not the case.

So yeah, thats my view on wank. I hardly can expect everyones "mid tier" to be in the same order, so I dont get bent outta shape when it isnt. The biggest problem here tho is people dont wanna admit certain names can even COMPETE with other names...Like Kisame or Hebi vs a Sannin for instance.


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## Mad Scientist (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> You mean why the manga is wrong and you're right?
> 
> Do you have no sense of irony?


It's called an argument: point of view, backed by evidence. 

Screaming "WaA I can't refute your arguments, the manga is right, you're wrong.. Waaaahhhh" doesn't actually mean you won the debate. 

I posted several arguments, and your response to the match was:

"But you’re wrong, you have to realize that.

Also, A tried to kill Minato the instant he attacked him. So did Minato to A, same with B and their standoff. Almost nothing said here is substantiated or can be proven to favor A." 

Yeah, 'cause that tackles the arguments, genius. 

If you got called out for flaming, you don't need to say "Oh, ban me if you want," trying to put guilt on the mods. Face facts and debate, or just have fun, otherwise I should remind you the door is open for you to take time off this website/section and take a break. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Im real glad its not just me who can see @Mad Scientist has really earned the first half of his username


I'm a Mad Scientist. I support my points with facts and logic, AND concede when I'm wrong. 

You're a buffoon. This is the difference:

"Hebi Sasuke is as fast as 7G Gai...!"
"Madara had no trouble reacting to 8G Gai...!" 
"Are you fucking blind?" aka "I need to insult my opponent to look stronger, ironically."


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I dont wank Sauce
> 
> Or at least, not by my definitions of wank anyway.
> 
> ...


I'd hate to do this you but.... I was joking.


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> It's called an argument: point of view, backed by evidence.


Yeah, the problem is that the manga leaves us with no room for arguing.

LOL @ the idea that your opinion, no matter how well supported, should supercede the canonical information on this matter.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mad Scientist (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> Yeah, the problem is that the manga leaves us with no room for arguing.


You believe. I refuted this with multiple arguments. You're probably the type to take statements literally without context, such as Sasuke saying no one can block his kick, Kisame estimating Jiraiya above him despite being reluctant to retreat, DSM Kabuto saying he's all-powerful, Ay saying he's the fastest despite Gai being way faster than him.

Saying "the manga leaves us no room for debate" without providing an argument for that position or actually tackling mine is the same as saying "I will only believe my interpretation and assume it's fully perfect."



Mar55 said:


> LOL @ the idea that your opinion, no matter how well supported, should supercede the canonical information on this matter.


I'm using canonical info and logic to make an argument. You are just saying, "oh the canon says this" despite not questioning it, nor my points, literally repeating yourself. Sounds like a lack of critical thinking on your part.


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> trying to put guilt on the mods.


Wait what? What the fuck does this even mean?

My post is extremely straightforward, or so I thought. Simply put; my attitude and style of posting will not be changing. So they might as well ban me now to save themselves the trouble down the line.

Edit: I don't care about you choosing to be wrong about Minato versus A. Like seriously, I don't give any fucks about it. Hence why I said what I said and left it at that.


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## Mad Scientist (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> Wait what? What the fuck does this even mean?
> 
> My post is extremely straightforward, or so I thought. Simply put; my attitude and style of posting will not be changing. So they might as well ban me now to save themselves the trouble down the line.
> 
> Edit: I don't care about you choosing to be wrong about Minato versus A. Like seriously, I don't give any fucks about it. Hence why I said what I said and left it at that.


Er, did you just read up to that part now?

Anyway, fair enough if you want to get banned. It was a fine suggestion.

And you can stay beholden to your mediocre debating style where you don't actually debate, or hardly if at all, if you'd like.


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Er, did you just read up to that part now?


It may come as a surprise to you but, I'm actually quite indifferent to you and most of this website.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> I'd hate to do this you but.... I was joking.


Id like it out there regardless tbh

lots of people duck on my Sasuke arguments cuz "Youre a wanker"

And I always say "Hit me up with that there example of my wank fam"

Then radio silence


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## Mad Scientist (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> It may come as a surprise to you but, I'm actually quite indifferent to you and most of this website.


That's fine. I don't really have an issue there.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Id like it out there regardless tbh
> 
> lots of people duck on my Sasuke arguments cuz "Youre a wanker"
> 
> ...


I don't call you out for Sasuke wank, but now that I think about it, believing Hebi Sasuke is as fast as 7G Gai really is a good example.


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Id like it out there regardless tbh
> 
> lots of people duck on my Sasuke arguments cuz "Youre a wanker"
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

I wouldn't actually care if you wanked Sasuke anyway. I mean..... have you seen me in an Obito thread? I wank the guy so much you'll wonder why he even needs Rin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 10, 2019)

Jesus my tier list really has people's panties in a wad huh? Not asking anyone to agree with it, I'm allowed to post my opinions @Mar55


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

Troyse22 said:


> Jesus my tier list really has people's panties in a wad huh?


I'll have you know that I don't wear panties, so ha!


Troyse22 said:


> Not asking anyone to agree with it, I'm allowed to post my opinions @Mar55


And no one has even implied that you can't. But thanks for the useless information.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> I'll have you know that I don't wear panties, so ha!
> 
> And no one has even implied that you can't. But thanks for the useless information.



K well then stop flaming people, u jumped on Bonly for saying good tier list (even though I know he's trolling) ik nobody agrees with my list (honestly mainly where I put Kisame, is there really any crazy faults with my tier list according to you outside of that)


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I'm a Mad Scientist. I support my points with facts and logic


No youre just mad 

And youre in the wrong so often Im impressed you can even spell "facts" or "logic" 

Cuz lord knows you never use them

What you CONFUSE as "facts" is actually you deluding yourself after jumping through about 50 hoops using your gold medal Olympics tier mental gymnastics to avoid admitting to what the manga tells you in BLACK AND WHITE in excess of HALF A DOZEN TIMES

Like the Chidori/Raikiri or the Raikage/Gai threads you made for instance

Cancer the both of them


Mad Scientist said:


> AND concede when I'm wrong.


Except you dont

Or youd concede to the Chidori/Raikiri debate after reading this scan


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




But ya dont 

instead you think KAKASHIS GAP IN POWER OVER A 12 YEAR OLD SASUKE is indicative of a difference between the 2 Jutsu

Which is idiotic logic as perconal capabilities dont change shit about a Jutsu

Part 1 Naruto and Hokage Naruto use the same fucking Basic Rasengan chief 

But naw man...Kakashis "experience hurr durr" makes his Chidori TOTALLY different than every other Chidori

I lose brain cells even postulating how you arrive at these conclusions 


Mad Scientist said:


> You're a buffoon. This is the difference:
> 
> "Hebi Sasuke is as fast as 7G Gai...!"


Ive never said they are as fast as each other Ive said they have comparable feats

They have comparable speed

Sasuke is as fast as or faster than V1 Bee, as he does this while *Link Removed*, while healthy he is faster and he has a CS amp to throw on top of that no less.

*Link Removed* as Gai is no diff reacted to by Kisame whereas*Link Removed*

*Link Removed* *Link Removed* *Link Removed*

They are comparable to anyone with eyes

Sasuke may be faster, Gai may be faster, but they are in the same speed tier PER FEATS

And you say you use "facts" and "logic"

No

What you do is duck arguments you cant refute and misconstrue context to the point of me wondering if youre genuinely drunk or blind 

Like ACTUALLY BELIEVING a dude whos fastest attack is reacted to by KISAME is capable of actually doing ANYTHINg to a JJ

But here you are

Wasting my fucking time with shitty logic 


Mad Scientist said:


> "Madara had no trouble reacting to 8G Gai...!"


He didnt

*Link Removed*

And could counter the fastest step of Sekizo WHILE TAKING DAMAGE FROM THE OTHER 4...if Gai didnt have help from MInato there, hed have LITERALLY FUCKING DIED

*Link Removed* *Link Removed*, whos faster than Gai


Mad Scientist said:


> "Are you fucking blind?" aka "I need to insult my opponent to look stronger


"Stronger"?

You think internet debating is indicative of "strength"???

Oh wow 

And I ask you if youre fucking blind because you say shit that would baffle even fucking blind people


Mad Scientist said:


> I don't call you out for Sasuke wank, but now that I think about it, believing Hebi Sasuke is as fast as 7G Gai really is a good example.


Its actually not tho

And if you could use your brain instead of making all you conclusion sbased on how much masteres taint you can fit between your ears, your realize that

Sasuke has the feats to compete with Gai in speed even in the 7th Gate

They are on a comparable speed tier

I dont give a darn whos faster, they are comparable 

And its stupid to argue otherwise

Gai is blatantly shown, at his FASTEST, in 7G, to be SLOWER than V2 Bee

Sasuke is blatantly shown, at his WEAKEST, in BASE, to be FASTER than V1 Bee

And youre genius ass cant even concede they are COMPARABLE?

Jesus


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

Troyse22 said:


> K well then stop flaming people


No.


Troyse22 said:


> u jumped on Bonly for saying good tier


I didn't, actually. Try reading next time. 


Troyse22 said:


> is there really any crazy faults with my tier list according to you outside of that


Dude, you have Madara above Kaguya. "It's a no from me, dawg."


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## Troyse22 (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> No.
> 
> I didn't, actually. Try reading next time.
> 
> Dude, you have Madara above Kaguya. "It's a no from me, dawg."



While I agree Kaguya possesses the better feats, what Madara should presumably have exceeds what she can handle, namely his TTJ Susanoo (which should make Sasukes BPS look like an ant in size, durability and offensive output.) Now don't forget Limbo is a thing. So 5 of those Susanoo beating the hell out of her? We haven't seen anyone in the manga thus far that is capable of dealing with that. Not adult Naruto+Sasuke, not Momoshiki+Kinshiki, nobody.

Naruto verse should just be happy that Madara got plot cucked


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

Troyse22 said:


> Naruto verse should just be happy that Madara got plot cucked


Or it should be happy that Madara wankers don't write the series, you clown.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> Or it should be happy that Madara wankers don't write the series, you clown.



Concession accepted


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## Mar55 (Dec 10, 2019)

Troyse22 said:


> Concession accepted


View media item 86726

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im real glad its not just me who can see @Mad Scientist has really earned the first half of his username



AHEM

I called it first back when everybody thought he was some nice innocent scientific guy I could see the seeds of madness BLOSSOM!


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> View media item 86726


Welcome to the FC bro...


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## Mad Scientist (Dec 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No youre just mad
> 
> And youre in the wrong so often Im impressed you can even spell "facts" or "logic"
> 
> Cuz lord knows you never use them


BS opinion.



WorldsStrongest said:


> What you CONFUSE as "facts" is actually you deluding yourself after jumping through about 50 hoops using your gold medal Olympics tier mental gymnastics to avoid admitting to what the manga tells you in BLACK AND WHITE in excess of HALF A DOZEN TIMES


BS opinion.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Like the Chidori/Raikiri or the Raikage/Gai threads you made for instance
> 
> Cancer the both of them


BS opinion.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Except you dont
> 
> Or youd concede to the Chidori/Raikiri debate after reading this scan
> 
> ...


Literally repeating yourself. I've already made arguments for this. Numerous times. Which you nor other rather respectable posters have been able to adequately refute such that I'd be convinced otherwise.



WorldsStrongest said:


> instead you think KAKASHIS GAP IN POWER OVER A 12 YEAR OLD SASUKE is indicative of a difference between the 2 Jutsu
> 
> Which is idiotic logic as perconal capabilities dont change shit about a Jutsu


That is BS. I made numerous other points and they function together. What you've done is take _one_ _supplementary_ point and painted that as my sole/main argument, which is an egregious act of yours. Good grief... why am I not surprised...



WorldsStrongest said:


> Part 1 Naruto and Hokage Naruto use the same fucking Basic Rasengan chief
> 
> But naw man...Kakashis "experience hurr durr" makes his Chidori TOTALLY different than every other Chidori
> 
> I lose brain cells even postulating how you arrive at these conclusions


That is one of the _dumbest_ arguments I've heard. I will add this to my collection now. Equalise the size, and Hokage Naruto's Rasengan is _much_ stronger than P1 Naruto's (due to chakra potency, skill, and physical strength – which summarises the crux of my argument to a large degree). Now, don't take the following as my primary argument like you and ShinAkuma tend to do... but this is _even_ echoed in Boruto where Jiraiya's "normal"-sized Rasengan is a "cut above the rest". I know you don't take Boruto seriously, and for what many would say good reason, but you don't _need_ to, if you already understand why Adult Naruto's Rasengan is stronger than P1 Naruto's, which you unfortunately don't seem to understand. Also, consider that base Minato's Rasengan is also seen as generally being larger than P1/BoS Naruto's – and no, he doesn't call it Big Ball Rasengan – he's simply better at using the technique, which is of course portrayed. I'm guessing the Minato fans won't back me up here.

Stop being asinine. Base Vote2 Naruto's Rasengan stalemated Amaterasu-Chidori from base Vote2 Sasuke.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Ive never said they are as fast as each other Ive said they have comparable feats
> 
> They have comparable speed
> 
> ...


You think they're comparable because you think JJ Madara's surprise at Gai's speed was not indicative of his speed. That's a fatal flaw in your understanding of the manga.

Never have you once countered this point properly: Why was JJ Madara only able to attempt to strike Gai _after_ Hirudora was prepared?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke may be faster, Gai may be faster, but they are in the same speed tier PER FEATS


No. There is _NO_ possibility for Sasuke being faster than 7G Gai. You did it again. They are *NOT* comparable.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And you say you use "facts" and "logic"
> 
> No
> 
> ...


BS opinion.



WorldsStrongest said:


> He didnt
> 
> *Link Removed*
> 
> ...


Again with the lack of understanding of the manga. You claimed JJ Mads had no trouble reacting to 8G Gai. There were many instances of him having trouble. You selectively picking one feat after Madara was getting his ass beat is egregiously fallacious (notwithstanding Minato literally counting on 6G Lee's timing, someone who was likened to RSM Naruto - and don't you forget that SM Minato with FTG plus help got rendered a genin-level by JJ Mads).



WorldsStrongest said:


> Its actually not tho
> 
> And if you could use your brain instead of making all you conclusion sbased on how much masteres taint you can fit between your ears, your realize that
> 
> ...


You've done it again.
"Sasuke has the feats to compete with Gai in speed even in the 7th Gate"
This is asinine.


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## Mad Scientist (Dec 10, 2019)

And if Hebi Sasuke is comparable to 7G Gai, then Deidara, who dodged Hebi Sasuke, should have been able to _blitz _base Gai.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> And if Hebi Sasuke is comparable to 7G Gai, then Deidara, who dodged Hebi Sasuke, should have been able to _blitz _base Gai.



7g Gai 0 diff blitzes Hebi Sasuke, who's arguing against that...?

Reactions: Like 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 10, 2019)

Note to reasonable people reading this thread: Everytime you see this sentence "Not an argument you salty boi" know that MS is literally just spinning his wheels and is as good as conceding

Doing that thing he does where he likes to duck canon he cant refute

Granted, even his best formulated opinions are adjacent to a concession they are so poorly put together anyway, Im just saiyan, when he retorts with a one liner...Its just sad.



Mad Scientist said:


> BS opinion.


Not an argument you salty boi


Mad Scientist said:


> BS opinion.


Not an argument you salty boi


Mad Scientist said:


> BS opinion.


Not an argument you salty boi


Mad Scientist said:


> Literally repeating yourself. I've already made arguments for this


Shitty ones

That are all based on the exact same logic

Individual ability does NOT mean a character is suddenly using a completely different fucking technique than the guy standing next to him you goof

No matter what the stat is

Just because Kakashi is faster doesnt mean his Raikiri is any MECHANICALLY different than Sasukes Chidori

Just because kakashi is more experienced doesnt mean his Raikiri is any MECHANICALLY different than Sasukes Chidori

Just because Kakashi has better chakra control doesnt mean his Raikiri is any MECHANICALLY different than Sasukes Chidori

Just because he has more chakra doesnt mean his Raikiri is any MECHANICALLY different than Sasukes Chidori

Just because his chakra is more potent/developed doesnt mean his Raikiri is any MECHANICALLY different than Sasukes Chidori

Wanna know what all of those thinsg DO mean?

That kakashi > Sasuke

Not that Raikiri > Chidori, they are the same Jutsu

If you cloned Kakashi, and you had one of them use "Raikiri" and the other use "Chidori" the EXACT SAME THING is happening to their target

If one kills it, so does the other, if one gets tanked so does the other and everything in between.

You can harp on and on and fucking on till youre blue in the goddamn face about individual skill or ability, but that doesnt affect the JUTSU THEMSLEVES and how theyd perform in the hands of 2 EQUALS at all.

And youre beyond fucking help if you believe otherwise.

Hell dude, you CONCEDED on this topic a few months ago, So I know youre just a damn troll at this point

Ive gone over the facts...And the facts are they have the EXACT same hand seals, the EXACT same chakra expenditure, the EXACT same chakra mechanics of shape and nature manipulation, the EXACT same function and properties, the EXACT same hype, the EXACT same appearance, the EXACT same sounds, and are reffered to interchangeably like HALF A DOZEN TIMES INCLUDING THEIR INTRO-FUCKING-DUCTION AND ALSO IN THE DBS

You genuinely could not be more wrong on this topic if you tried


Mad Scientist said:


> Which you nor other rather respectable posters have been able to adequately refute


Oh we have refuted it fine

The issue is you blatantly duck canon you dont like

Like you do with teh first goddamn page in the manga that mentions Raikiri/Chidori in the same sentence, which has Gai specifically telling us they are one in the same, Kakashi doesnt correct him and is shown later to concur with this on more than one occassion, and Hiruzen concurs.. Which that ALONE debunks your entire argument.


Mad Scientist said:


> That is BS.


Not an argument you salty boi


Mad Scientist said:


> I made numerous other points


You havent tho

Not any good ones


Your stance on stats? Debunked like 50 times over as this argument doesnt even pertain to Jutsu mechanics in the slightest
Your stance on the DBs? Debunked as the DB is a secondary source to the manga AND teh DB ALSO refers to them as one in the same regardless.
Your stance on fucking sound effects as if this is an argument to betaken even REMOTELY seriously? Debunked as they makes the exact same sound effects at various points in the manga. This argument is also fucking stupid anyway as you have no fucking way to know which "sound effect" is indicative of the stronger Jutsu even if there WAS a difference and THERE ISNt, beyond a stupid argument here.
Your stance on their appearance? You yourself admitted they both vary greatly, so this argument means nothing either. There are scans of Kakashi using a Raikiri the size of his head, and there are scans of Sasuke using one damn near the size of his torso, but most often they both use a version that barely coats their hand.
Your stance on chakra? Countered, Kakashi states they are equal.
Your stance on seals? Countered, Sasuek uses Chidori with the same seals Kakashi uses for Raikiri several times. Seals also become almost entirely irrelevant in the series.



Mad Scientist said:


> What you've done is take _one_ _supplementary_ point and painted that as my sole/main argument


Uh

No

What ive done is put like 6 of your arguments under one umbrella term because they are all anonymously stupid

Also thats how language works

You CANNOT argue for differences between indivdual uses PHYSICAL CONDITIONS as evidence for 2 TECHNIQUES to be MECHANICALLY different

Thats stupid

Thats like me putting you behind the wheel of a Ferrari and putting a Grand Prix winner behind the wheel of another identical Ferrari, having you race, and then state that his car was mechanically faster when you lose...

See how stupid that is?


Mad Scientist said:


> That is one of the _dumbest_ arguments I've heard.


Its exactly what your genius ass is doing


Mad Scientist said:


> Equalise the size, and Hokage Naruto's Rasengan is _much_ stronger than P1 Naruto's


Yes

Yes it is

But they are MECHANICALLY NO DIFFERENT

They are still using the EXACT SAME JUTSU

The only differences come from the fact the chakra used to create Hokage Narutos is OBSCENELY MORE POWERFUL

Hokage Naruto isnt using a more powerful Jutsu than Part 1 Naruto, HE IS MORE POWERFUL THAN THE OTHER USER

Thats the only difference

Why the fuck do you not get this?



Mad Scientist said:


> which summarises the crux of my argument to a large degree


This is as good as a fucking concession on your behalf then

As youre literally stating that your argument is only pertaining to the physical differences of the Jutsu to claim Raikiri is different

Which is fucking stupid

If I started using Rinnegan Sasuke and ONLY Rinnegan Sasuke as my point of reference for Chidori, and pit him up against Part 1 Kakashi and ONLY Part 1 Kakashis Raikiri

You wanna know what my conclusion would be on this debate?

Between which technique is mechanically superior or stronger?

STILL THE EXACT SAME

NOTHING FUCKING CHANGES

YES SASUKES IS CAPABLE OF HILARIOUSLY MORE FORCE, BUT THAT HAS NO BEARING ON HOW THE 2 JUTSU ARE CREATED, HOW THEY FUNCTION, THEIR BARE MINIMUM CHAKRA QUANTITY, OR WHAT THEIR PURPOSE IS

Even when comparing a piss weak Jonin fodder using Raikiri to a living breathing Rinnegan god using Chidori, my answer remains that they are mechanically using the same Jutsu, as the manga told us like half a dozen times.

See bud?

Thats what being unbiased in a debate looks like


Mad Scientist said:


> but this is _even_ echoed in Boruto where Jiraiya's "normal"-sized Rasengan is a "cut above the rest"


Yeah compared to fucking Genin 

As the only other users of the Jutsu at that point are fucking 12

You continue to prove my goddamn point


Mad Scientist said:


> if you already understand why Adult Naruto's Rasengan is stronger than P1 Naruto's, which you unfortunately don't seem to understand.


I understand it completely

Im the one who brought it up genius

What YOU Dont understand and I DO, is the REASON why they are different


Mad Scientist said:


> consider that base Minato's Rasengan is also seen as generally being larger than P1/BoS Naruto's – and no, he doesn't call it Big Ball Rasengan – he's simply better at using the technique


Which Is, again, a difference owed to INDIVIDUAL ABILITY

The TECHNIQUES are still the exact same


Mad Scientist said:


> Stop being asinine. Base Vote2 Naruto's Rasengan stalemated Amaterasu-Chidori from base Vote2 Sasuke.


Which has nothing to do with this conversation at all

You can relate it to individual ability, and Naruto having the edge there, but thats a point FOR my argument, not against it genius


Mad Scientist said:


> You think they're comparable because you think JJ Madara's surprise at Gai's speed was not indicative of his speed


Because it fucking wasnt

I can give you a scene, from EVERY FIGHT IN THIS MANGA, where the weaker fighter "surprises" the stronger one and this goes all the fucking way back to the first Team 7 Bell test

Your argument that Gai "surprised" madara means his speed is meaningful on that level if fucking idiotic

Gais top speed was reacted to by kisame

Is Kisame now also JJ tier?

Answer this question


Mad Scientist said:


> That's a fatal flaw in your understanding of the manga.


No actually theres a fatal flaw in your able to ATTEMPT to understand ANYTHING apparently

Or else we wouldnt be here


Mad Scientist said:


> Never have you once countered this point properly


Ive countered it literally doxens of times with dozens of examples

As I can literally pick ANY FIGHT in this series with a CLEARLY SUPERIOR fighter and CLEARLY WEAKER one and theres going to be AT LEAST 1 moment of "hurp durp surprise" in it

And the weaker fighter STILL doesnt scale

Pull your head out of Gais taint and use it for thinking for a second man


Mad Scientist said:


> Why was JJ Madara only able to attempt to strike Gai


The fuck do you mean "only capable"

See man, the fact you arrive at that conclusion is further proof you have no clue what youre talking about.

Madara was neg diff dodging literally everything Gai tried, Gai didnt even come close to touching him even with Hirudora which Madara blocks

Madara, as is perfectly IC for him to do with ANY OPPONENT in this series, was PLAYING with Gai

thats why he didnt fucking end him instantly

This is like saying*Link Removed*

No man

Theres a STORY to be told here

Madara isnt going to turn into a JJ and then immediately fucking start sghitting out his full power oneshotting every bitch hes capable of oneshotting the second they start fighting him

USE

YOUR

HEAD


Mad Scientist said:


> No. There is _NO_ possibility for Sasuke being faster than 7G Gai. You did it again. They are *NOT* comparable.


Yet you havent debunked the evidence I put forth to suggest they are

Weakened Sasuke > V1 Bee is canon fact

V2 Bee > 7G Gai at his fastest is canon fact

So we get

V2 Bee > Sasuke >?< 7G Gai > V1 Bee

With the top of the chain FIXED

So please, with these things considered, how in the name of fuck, can you arrive at the conclusion that  healthy, CS2 amped Hebi Sasuke, isnt even in the same TIER of speed as 7G Gai?

How?


Mad Scientist said:


> BS opinion.


Not an argument you salty boi


Mad Scientist said:


> Again with the lack of understanding of the manga.


Says the one who doesnt know the difference between stats and Jutsu mechanics 


Mad Scientist said:


> You claimed JJ Mads had no trouble reacting to 8G Gai


Cuz he didnt

He reacts to Gais FASTEST speed ON PANEL

He also reacts to his SECOND fastest speed WHILE TAKING DAMAGE from his 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th fastest speeds

He ALSO reacts to RSM Naruto, who is FASTER than Gai


Mad Scientist said:


> There were many instances of him having trouble


No actually there werent

He was being pressured (LEGITIMATELY here, 7G gai didnt pressure shit) not troubled

At no point was Gai shown to be too fast for Madara to counter...ANd I know this because his top 2 fastest speeds ARE COUNTERED

Gai would have DIED at one point ffs if not for outside help

So no, Madara didnt have trouble reacting to Gai


Mad Scientist said:


> You selectively picking one feat


Im literally giving you the entire Gai fight and then 1 feat post Gai fight actually

I am not selectively picking jack shit

I cited like 4 examples


Mad Scientist said:


> You've done it again.
> "Sasuke has the feats to compete with Gai in speed even in the 7th Gate"
> This is asinine.


Not an argument you salty boi


Mad Scientist said:


> And if Hebi Sasuke is comparable to 7G Gai, then Deidara, who dodged Hebi Sasuke


Deidara didnt tho

Sasuke went for Tobi, not Deidara

And its hardly out there for Deidara to be able to react to Sasuke or Gai anyway, Kisame could and Deidara is peer to Kisame.


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## Mad Scientist (Dec 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Note to reasonable people reading this thread: Everytime you see this sentence "Not an argument you salty boi" know that MS is literally just spinning his wheels and is as good as conceding
> 
> Doing that thing he does where he likes to duck canon he cant refute
> 
> Granted, even his best formulated opinions are adjacent to a concession they are so poorly put together anyway, Im just saiyan, when he retorts with a one liner...Its just sad.


No, it means that's where you spouted your BS opinion as if it's gospel.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Shitty ones
> 
> That are all based on the exact same logic
> 
> ...


Not sure what you're smoking. Kakashi being able to concentrate more chakra and control it more sharply into his Chidoris (this is standard for him) means his Chidoris are bigger and stronger than Sasuke's, just like Minato's standard Rasengans follow basically the same pattern, making his stronger than Naruto's, of course, for both characters, bar outliers and the WA techs.



WorldsStrongest said:


> If you cloned Kakashi, and you had one of them use "Raikiri" and the other use "Chidori" the EXACT SAME THING is happening to their target
> 
> If one kills it, so does the other, if one gets tanked so does the other and everything in between.
> 
> ...


Er, since Kakashi's Chidori is better, it wouldn't have the exact same effect lol, just as how Minato's Rasengan would have more of an impact than Naruto's.

You're spouting things you've said before, in spite of the evidence that cements Raikiri as larger, and naturally stronger.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh we have refuted it fine
> 
> The issue is you blatantly duck canon you dont like
> 
> Like you do with teh first goddamn page in the manga that mentions Raikiri/Chidori in the same sentence, which has Gai specifically telling us they are one in the same, Kakashi doesnt correct him and is shown later to concur with this on more than one occassion, and Hiruzen concurs.. Which that ALONE debunks your entire argument.


Err, Kakashi and Gai see a "yellow flash" of light at BM Naruto and Tsunade sees the same thing with KCM Naruto, doesn't mean they were travelling at the same speeds.

Base exhausted Vote2 Naruto calls his Rasengan Rasengan, doesn't mean it's not considerably stronger than when Naruto first learned, even if Vote2 Naruto forced his to be the same size. His skill means better rotation and his chakra potency is higher. Regardless, his standard Rasengan eventually became larger, so it inevitably became better anyway, as most people would agree (i.e. check Minato thread).



WorldsStrongest said:


> You havent tho
> 
> Not any good ones
> 
> ...



Err, I don't seem to recall discussing stats with you.
DB is canon as it's created by Kishimoto. The only parts of it that are not canon are where they contradict the main source (i.e. the manga).
SFX - my argument wins by miles. Don't even kid around that.
Err, I never said anyone's appearances vary greatly, or at least I'm pretty sure I mentioned that there were subtle differences. Perhaps I said Raikiri was _clearly_ larger; that's not the same as "varying greatly". But yes, Kakashi's Chidori (aka Raikiri) is clearly bigger than pre-WA Sasuke's.
I've debunked this many times. Besides, Kakashi's Sharingan puts a drain on him in P1. And if you think P1 Kakashi's chakra volume is the same as kid Sasuke's, then you're even -snip-
Err, I didn't make a stance on seals. lol.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Uh
> 
> No
> 
> ...


I didn't. I've made it clear numerous times to you that the jutsu are different due to things like chakra concentration etc., which is further boosted by Kakashi's physicals. Disregarding the latter doesn't change the reality of the former.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Hokage Naruto isnt using a more powerful Jutsu than Part 1 Naruto, HE IS MORE POWERFUL THAN THE OTHER USER


You are a numbskull. Even if Hokage base Naruto equalised all his physicals (strength of his arm, speed of strike...) to exactly match P1 Naruto, his Rasengan would still bust P1 Naruto's, because of chakra size, chakra rotation, chakra potency and if there are any other things unrelated to his physique.



WorldsStrongest said:


> This is as good as a fucking concession on your behalf then
> 
> As youre literally stating that your argument is only pertaining to the physical differences of the Jutsu to claim Raikiri is different
> 
> ...


Err, (assuming physique equal i.e. Sasuke slowing down etc.) Rinnegan Sasuke's Chidori would beat P1 Kakashi's Chidori because of Sasuke's higher chakra potency and chakra content across standard versions of these.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Yet you havent debunked the evidence I put forth to suggest they are
> 
> Weakened Sasuke > V1 Bee is canon fact
> 
> ...


Err, you think Kisame reacted to 7G Gai (false) and falsely attribute this to mean he's as fast or faster than his running speed (when that is miles off), so you've got serious flaws in your understanding here. That's legit why you're messing everything up. Meanwhile you continue disregarding JJ Madara. Haha.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No actually there werent
> 
> He was being pressured (LEGITIMATELY here, 7G gai didnt pressure shit) not troubled
> 
> ...


Again, Madara, for the most part, was getting stomped by 8G Gai, yet you claimed he did not have any trouble reacting to him.

Why did JJ Madara only react to 7G Gai once he prepared Hirudora instead of just ripping his arm off in the CQC burst?

Why was Madara so surprised at 7G Gai's speed that his Rinnegan eyes were popping out lol?


----------



## Mad Scientist (Dec 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Now, if RAIKIRI was SUPERIOR as you claim it is, if Raikiri was a STRONGER TECHNIQUE, THIS WOULDNT BE THE CASE.


Raikiri is Kakashi's Chidori. Why are you strawmanning my argument and conflating my argument for Kakashi's inherent superiority in it (exactly like Minato's over Naruto's) over his physicals? 

A lot of your post is garbage and adds absolutely nothing to the discussion, examples:


WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh I wish to fuck I could neg again righ tnow
> 
> The sheer lack of ANYTHING resembling understanding of a BASIC aspect of this manga in this post makes me want to vomit
> 
> I feel like Im talking to an 11 year old...Are you an 11 year old?





WorldsStrongest said:


> The manga makes it gospel
> 
> The manga you repeatedly duck
> 
> ...





WorldsStrongest said:


> I can get you a scan of 12 year old Sasuke using a Chidori bigger than anything Kakashi ever consistently uses


This shows you never understood my argument in the first place. You showing me an outlier which is not part of the discussion and _never_ was in terms of jutsu potency does not make your argument stronger. Re-read the thread. I never included P1 Sasuke (_except_ for SFX for a specific reason) for a reason. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> He was literally about to kill Gai had Gai not had help
> 
> So no
> 
> Youre wrong here


I said for the most part he was getting stomped, which is true. Why do you continue to dispute canon facts that are literally drawn?



WorldsStrongest said:


> These are all individual differences that again, do nothing to change teh Jutsus mechanical structure


What the hell? The individual differences are what make Minato's Rasengan > Pre-WA Naruto's.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Dec 10, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Raikiri is Kakashi's Chidori. Why are you strawmanning my argument and conflating my argument for Kakashi's inherent superiority in it (exactly like Minato's over Naruto's) over his physicals?
> 
> A lot of your post is garbage and adds absolutely nothing to the discussion, examples:
> 
> ...


I hit this kid with a post that has over 850 words in it and he replies with a few dozen and his posts have gotten progressively smaller as he ignores more and more of my own posts each time

Yeah youre done

And more importantly Im fucking beyond done with you

Not hard to tell you make no effort here man

Terrible debating


----------



## Mad Scientist (Dec 10, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I hit this kid with a post that has over 850 words in it and he replies with a few dozen and his posts have gotten progressively smaller as he ignores more and more of my own posts each time


I'm tackling the important points, and you are endlessly repeating yourself, flopping like a fish. 

Since you have fundamental flaws of the manga, we _need_ to get them out of the way first. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah youre done
> 
> And more importantly Im fucking beyond done with you
> 
> ...


How is any of that shit relevant?

Look. 

"Yeah youre done" - useless. 
"And more importantly Im fucking beyond done with you" - useless
"Not hard to tell you make no effort here man" - useless
"Terrible debating" - useless
This is what you *CONSTANTLY* do and you have the *AUDACITY* to claim I'm skipping your post. 

No. You're merely repeating a bunch of bullshit, and I'm tackling the most important points before you go on another olympic-tier head-canon garbage-disposal act.


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## Marvel (Dec 10, 2019)




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