# Supreme God Zamasu in TTGL verse



## saint rider 890 (Nov 20, 2016)

Just How Far Supreme God Zamasu in TTGL verse ?


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## Blocky (Nov 20, 2016)

Can we calm down with the zamasu threads.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Nov 20, 2016)

There's 6 DB threads on the 1st page alone. You guys need to chill out.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 20, 2016)

How strong is Giygas ripoff Zamasu?

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> How strong is Giygas ripoff Zamasu?



He's implied to have become the entire multiverse in the future timeline (all 12 universes) and was even beginning to spread to a different timeline.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steven (Nov 20, 2016)

to much dragonball threads


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## Agent9149 (Nov 20, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> He's implied to have become the entire multiverse in the future timeline (all 12 universes) and was even beginning to spread to a different timeline.



It was not implied to be the whole multiverse, all the statements  refer to just the one universe.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 4 | Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> It was not implied to be the whole multiverse, all the statements  refer to just the one universe.



Nope.

God Movement explained it pretty well in the DBS feats thread. 

*Spoiler*: __ 





God Movement said:


> I know you meant that. You're wrong. He erased everything. You have to look at the use of "Sekai/World" as they use it in this episode. When Whis talked about the _timeline _Beerus created by killing Zamasu, he called it a new "Sekai/World". When Zamasu was going to become one with the universe Gowasu used "Uchu/Universe". Sekai/World in *this* context is everything there is. Sekai can mean the Earth, the Universe or Everything. And in this situation it means everything. And then you have Zen'o floating in a literal void doing absolutely nothing because there is nothing. We also know what neutral space between universes looks like. All you have to do is watch the U6 Arc. It took place in neutral space. Neutral space is black like regular space. The background wasn't black. Because there was no more space. ANYWHERE.
> 
> Watch this from 14:20 onwards and the distinction will become clear to you. Read the subs and listen to the words Whis says:
> 
> ...


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

It actually makes less sense for Giygas Zamasu to not be able to infect the other universes in that timeline considering he was beginning to bleed into the main timeline. Why would be able corrupt universes in an entirely different timeline but not the other universes in the timeline he's residing in?

On top of that if just universe 7 was destroyed you wouldn't have seen Zeno floating in a void of nothingness as he would just have teleported back to his domain in that timeline.


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## God Movement (Nov 20, 2016)

You have to be daft to think he only destroyed U7. The whole reason why Goku took him to the past to meet the other Zen'o and why he was so excited to go is because there was nothing left for him in the future because he destroyed everything.

And of course you have Herms98 with the same interpretation.


Literally everything points to a multiverse bust:

- A literal void
- Zen'o floating doing nothing
- Goku taking him to the past and Zen'o being excited to go
- Uchu/Sekai distinction in this very episode

Reactions: Like 5


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## neoacacia (Nov 20, 2016)

How do they return to pick up zeno in a time machine?


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## Agent9149 (Nov 20, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Nope.
> 
> God Movement explained it pretty well in the DBS feats thread.





God Movement said:


> You have to be daft to think he only destroyed U7. The whole reason why Goku took him to the past to meet the other Zen'o and why he was so excited to go is because there was nothing left for him in the future because he destroyed everything.
> 
> And of course you have Herms98 with the same interpretation.
> 
> ...



I'm talking about the Zamusu taken over the whole multiverse. Statments and visual evidence only give evidence that he took over U7.

I'm not talking about Zeno's feat.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## God Movement (Nov 20, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> I'm talking about the Zamusu taken over the whole multiverse. Statments and visual evidence only give evidence that he took over U7.
> 
> I'm not talking about Zeno's feat.



Yeah. I agree. Not enough evidence to say he took over the multiverse


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> I'm talking about the Zamusu taken over the whole multiverse. Statments and visual evidence only give evidence that he took over U7.
> 
> I'm not talking about Zeno's feat.





xenos5 said:


> It actually makes less sense for Giygas Zamasu to not be able to infect the other universes in that timeline considering he was beginning to bleed into the main timeline. Why would be able corrupt universes in an entirely different timeline but not the other universes in the timeline he's residing in?
> 
> On top of that why would Omni King destroy the multiverse including his domain if only universe 7 was infected? He only destroyed 6 universes when he became angry before from what we've heard


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 20, 2016)

neoacacia said:


> How do they return to pick up zeno in a time machine?


What do you mean


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## Agent9149 (Nov 20, 2016)

Beerus and Whis sensing his energy and the babies on Earth seeing U7 through a time rip doesn't automatically mean he was taking over the original timeline.

Had his faces started pouring out of the time rip i would agree with you.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 20, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> Beerus and Whis sensing his energy and the babies on Earth seeing U7 through a time rip doesn't automatically mean he was taking over the original timeline.
> 
> Had his faces started pouring out of the time rip i would agree with you.



He might have started doing just that, if given the opportunity.  His goal was to erase all mortals, and he  started in the timeline where the God of Destruction did not exist in Universe 7.  He destroyed all the Gods in that timeline (by killing the Supreme Kais and removing the Gods of Destruction in the process), and then started on the mortals.


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> Beerus and Whis sensing his energy and the babies on Earth seeing U7 through a time rip doesn't automatically mean he was taking over the original timeline.
> 
> *Had his faces started pouring out of the time rip i would agree with you.*



I'm pretty certain that was going to happen. Omni King just stopped Giygas Zamasu before it could.

And that doesn't address the other part of my post.

"On top of that why would Omni King destroy the multiverse including his domain if only universe 7 was infected? He only destroyed 6 universes when he became angry before from what we've heard"


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## Gordo solos (Nov 20, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> It was not implied to be the whole multiverse, all the statements  refer to just the one universe.


There are some implications that it extended outside of the universe, which was already addressed

Fucker likely blew up everything (including his own home) and was just flailing around out of boredom afterwards


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## Agent9149 (Nov 20, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> He might have started doing just that, if given the opportunity. His goal was to erase all mortals, and he started in the timeline where the God of Destruction did not exist in Universe 7. He destroyed all the Gods in that timeline (by killing the Supreme Kais and removing the Gods of Destruction in the process), and then started on the mortals.





xenos5 said:


> I'm pretty certain that was going to happen. Omni King just stopped Giygas Zamasu before it could.



Okay. But such leniency isn't given to other fictions. "might have" "probably" "going to" are speculations. Why should the assumption simply be given?



xenos5 said:


> "On top of that why would Omni King destroy the multiverse including his domain if only universe 7 was infected? He only destroyed 6 universes when he became angry before from what we've heard"



It's not like DBS hasn't been inconsistent before. And don't forget that Whis said that if the omni king wanted to wipe out the entire multiverse for whatever reason he would.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 20, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> Okay. But such leniency isn't given to other fictions. "might have" "probably" "going to" are speculations. Why should the assumption simply be given?



His face was peering through into the present timeline, was it not?  Why would Zamasu content himself with only wiping out mortals in one Universe when he was already busy hopping time-lines?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## neoacacia (Nov 20, 2016)

So we just assume he busted the whole multiverse and all timelines....... Also how did Goku and trunks return to that timeline if zeno destroyed it?


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## Agent9149 (Nov 20, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> His face was peering through into the present timeline, was it not?  Why would Zamasu content himself with only wiping out mortals in one Universe when he was already busy hopping time-lines?



No. Being able to look at another universe through a rip in time doesn't mean you can take over a multiverse. 



neoacacia said:


> So we just assume he busted the whole multiverse and all timelines....... Also how did Goku and trunks return to that timeline if zeno destroyed it?



Zeno destroyed the multiverse it seems, but not the entire timeline as Whis and Beerus were still able to travel into the past of that universe to set it right. Which probably means there are currently 3 zenos?


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> It's not like DBS hasn't been inconsistent before. And don't forget that Whis said that if the omni king wanted to wipe out the entire multiverse for whatever reason he would.



Zeno himself said "A world like this.." right before he destroyed the multiverse 
and as we have previously discussed Sekai/World is meant as the multiverse rather than Uchuu/Universe. So Zeno wanted to destroy the multiverse because ALL OF IT had been completely ruined.


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## neoacacia (Nov 20, 2016)

alright i understand now, but are we sure zamasu spread throughout the multiverse


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## SkylineGTR (Nov 20, 2016)

neoacacia said:


> alright i understand now, but are we sure zamasu spread throughout the multiverse



He may very well would've but since he didn't we can only scale him to fusing with the universe. Anything else is speculation and that's not how it works in OBD. Either way Zamasu is too much for TTGL imo.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Nov 20, 2016)

Zamasu's feat consists of infecting one whole universe. That's it. Assumptions aren't given to other series based on might haves and they aren't here either. Unless his presence was shown to infect the other 11 universes, which it was not, then he's stuck at what was shown. It's that simple.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

SkylineGTR said:


> He may very well would've but since he didn't we can only scale him to fusing with the universe. Anything else is speculation and that's not how it works in OBD. Either way Zamasu is too much for TTGL imo.



I just gave evidence of Zamasu having fused with the multiverse/having become the multiverse. 

Omni King saying "a world like this" and then destroying the entire multiverse. He didn't just destroy every other universe outside of universe 7 for shits and giggles. He himself pretty much stated the whole multiverse was fucked.


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Zamasu's feat consists of infecting one whole universe. That's it. Assumptions aren't given to other series based on might haves and they aren't here either. Unless his presence was shown to infect the other 11 universes, which it was not then he's stuck at what was shown. It's that simple.



I gave evidence 

Zeno's statement


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Nov 20, 2016)

That's not evidence of Zamasu infecting the entire multiverse whatsoever. Stop with the incessant wank.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> That's not evidence of Zamasu infecting the entire multiverse whatsoever. Stop with the incessant wank.



It's not wank.


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## SkylineGTR (Nov 20, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I just gave evidence of Zamasu having fused with the multiverse/having become the multiverse.
> 
> Omni King saying "a world like this" and then destroying the entire multiverse. He didn't just destroy every other universe outside of universe 7 for shits and giggles. He himself pretty much stated the whole multiverse was fucked.



The multiverse was fucked cause all the GoDs were dead and a shit load of planet and stars were destroyed. Also he didn't like how Zamasu annoyed him so Zeno nuked the entire multiverse. It has nothing to do with zamasu being fused with the multiverse, once Zeno is annoyed, he automatically nukes the multiverse as stated by both Whis and Beerus.

I'm sure Zamasu could've spread through the multiverse but he was destroyed before that happened. Even the Kai's state he merged with the universe, not all universes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 20, 2016)

So is Zamasu's Final Form just gonna be called Final Zamasu?


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

SkylineGTR said:


> *The multiverse was fucked cause all the GoDs were dead and a shit load of planet and stars were destroyed.* Also he didn't like how Zamasu annoyed him so Zeno nuked the entire multiverse. It has nothing to do with zamasu being fused with the multiverse,



Nope. Unless you're arguing Zamasu and Black had a way of traversing across the multiverse we never saw they only killed the kais in universe 7 so the rest of the multiverse would be just fine. Goku asked Omni King to erase Zamasu and Omni King agreed and then said "A world like this" because the entire multiverse had become Zamasu. 



SkylineGTR said:


> once Zeno is annoyed, he automatically nukes the multiverse as stated by both Whis and Beerus.



No he only destroyed 6 universes in the main timeline when annoyed rather than the whole multiverse. 



SkylineGTR said:


> I'm sure Zamasu could've spread through the multiverse but he was destroyed before that happened. Even the Kai's state he merged with the universe, not all universes.



Gowasu had no way of knowing if the rest of the universes had been taken over but Omni King did and he showed he knew.


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> So is Zamasu's Final Form just gonna be called Final Zamasu?



Giygas Zamasu


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## SkylineGTR (Nov 20, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Nope. Unless you're arguing Zamasu and Black had a way of traversing across the multiverse we never saw they only killed the kais in universe 7 so the rest of the multiverse would be just fine. Goku asked Omni King to erase Zamasu and Omni King agreed and then said "A world like this" because the entire multiverse had become Zamasu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First of all, it clearly shows they can traverse the multiverse as Zamasu is shown to exit universe 10 and travels to u7 to find the one who knows all or w/e his name is. He also found the SDBs by travelling both u6 and u7. On top of that it even shows them killing all the Kai's. So this just reinforces my points as to why Zeno nuked the multiverse, especially after being annoyed with Zamasu.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 20, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Nope. Unless you're arguing Zamasu and Black had a way of traversing across the multiverse we never saw they only killed the kais in universe 7 so the rest of the multiverse would be just fine. Goku asked Omni King to erase Zamasu and Omni King agreed and then said "A world like this" because the entire multiverse had become Zamasu.



Zamasu and Black specially said they killed EVERY god, not just the ones in universe 7. Their plan was to wipe out all the mortals in every universe and they couldn't risk the gods of destruction trying to stop them.


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

SkylineGTR said:


> First of all, it clearly shows they can traverse the multiverse as *Zamasu is shown to exit universe 10 and travels to u7 to find the one who knows all or w/e his name is. He also found the SDBs by travelling both u6 and u7.* On top of that it even shows them killing all the Kai's. So this just reinforces my points as to why Zeno nuked the multiverse, especially after being annoyed with Zamasu.



Fine. I'd forgotten about that.

However. This still doesn't negate the phrasing Omni King uses when he makes that statement right before he destroys the multiverse. He's referring to the multiverse right after Goku asks him to erase Zamasu so it honestly seems like he's saying I'm going to erase this multiverse/Zamasu. He refers to them like they're one and the same.


1:44

"don't you think you should erase him?"

"You're right."

"A world like this..."

"A world likes this must disappear!"


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## Keollyn (Nov 20, 2016)

How do these threads always end up a second DBS feat thread?


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> How do these threads always end up a second DBS feat thread?



Well if you want an on topic answer to the thread, i'd say this version of Zamasu solos the verse including STTGL.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 20, 2016)

Yeah, pretty sure Zamasu solos. He is faster than TTGL and the Anti Spiral and bigger since he is the universe, while still being casually universal in DC. Not sure if there is anyting TTGL verse can do.


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## saint rider 890 (Nov 20, 2016)

What about STTGL ? Can Zamasu beat him ?


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## Blocky (Nov 20, 2016)

saint rider 890 said:


> What about STTGL ? Can Zamasu beat him ?


Can STTGL handle a living universe all around him and fighting him.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 20, 2016)

He should be bigger than observable universe. And they cleared the universe. On top of that Anti spiral can just put in in the multiverse illusion


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## Sigismund (Nov 20, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> He should be bigger than observable universe. And they cleared the universe. On top of that Anti spiral can just put in in the multiverse illusion


Zarmasu is the Dragon Ball universe, which is far bigger than ours.
And the Blitzing part stops the second things from happening

Reactions: Agree 3


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> He should be bigger than observable universe. And they cleared the universe.



The universes in dragonball are bigger than our universe/observable universe. And Zamasu was already far above many universe level+ characters before becoming the universe himself so he's better than the average Giygas-expy. 



Bad Wolf said:


> On top of that Anti spiral can just put in in the multiverse illusion



Proof he can do that to a non-corporeal being?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 20, 2016)

I'm curious about this. Can you affect a non-corporeal with more mundane kinds of hax like illusions and mindfuck  I don't think it'll be possible to be able to "target" him, but I don't know.


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## saint rider 890 (Nov 20, 2016)

Just make me wonder just how far SSB Blue Vegito in TTGL verse ?


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## Nep Heart (Nov 20, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> I'm curious about this. Can you affect a non-corporeal with more mundane kinds of hax like illusions and mindfuck  I don't think it'll be possible to be able to "target" him, but I don't know.



 It is as long as the character has feats of actually doing that or something on a similar level. However, I don't think Anti-Spiral has displayed illusory mind manipulation on that scale nor has it done it to the likes of a living universe like Zamasu's final form (which dwarfs our own to boot). I'd imagine the sheer size would give Zamasu ridiculous mental resistance anyway.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Informative 1


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## whatsausername (Nov 20, 2016)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> There's 6 DB threads on the 1st page alone. You guys need to chill out.


they've been waiting for an episode like this for a while. lol, cant blame them.


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## Fang (Nov 20, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> It is as long as the character has feats of actually doing that or something on a similar level. However, I don't think Anti-Spiral has displayed illusory mind manipulation on that scale nor has it done it to the likes of a living universe like Zamasu's final form (which dwarfs our own to boot). I'd imagine the sheer size would give Zamasu ridiculous mental resistance anyway.



Anti-Spiral created some infinite sized dimension shit and also have probability ignoring weapons though.


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

Fang said:


> Anti-Spiral created some *infinite sized dimension* shit and also have probability ignoring weapons though.



I don't recall this. I mean I know a dimension was created but I don't think it was infinite.


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## NightmareCinema (Nov 20, 2016)

Fang said:


> Anti-Spiral created some infinite sized dimension shit and also have probability ignoring weapons though.


Yup. The multi-dimensional labyrinth was constantly shifting as well and showed different things depending on the person (Yoko having multiple versions which she's shown by Kamina is an example).

Only reason they managed to break out is because Kamina's long-dead spirit broke in to bust Team Dai-Gurren out.

And the Anti-Spiral did create that which could possibly put it at multiverse level. Only problem here is, according to Tacocat, is that after creating the labyrinth it might've expanded independently from any effort on the Anti-Spiral's part.

Although I do think that the AS was also maintaining that labyrinth as well regardless because everything they've created disappeared after Simon killed the Anti-Spiral King.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Nov 20, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> Yup. The multi-dimensional labyrinth was constantly shifting as well and showed different things depending on the person (Yoko having multiple versions which she's shown by Kamina is an example).
> 
> Only reason they managed to break out is because Kamina's long-dead spirit broke in to bust Team Dai-Gurren out.
> 
> ...



I thought the multiverse labyrinth was an illusion? I've heard it referred to that way many times and that's how it is listed in his profile


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## Blocky (Nov 20, 2016)

anti-spiral is muitlversal?


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## NightmareCinema (Nov 20, 2016)

Blocky said:


> anti-spiral is muitlversal?


Only possibly since it's unknown if the multi-dimensional labyrinth developed directly because of the Anti-Spiral or if it was left to develop on its own.

But universe level+ is already a given considering that the Super Spiral Space where the final battle took place was created by the Anti-Spiral.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Montanz (Nov 20, 2016)

Is there definitive proof that the multidimensional labyrinth is infinite in size though?
I get the impression that each and every Dai gurren member was sub-conciously sustaining their own version of reality given how it is described to work, and just going by the fact that they're from spiral race gives them the potential to be galaxy-universal, but saying it is the size of an infinite universe is quite a stretch.


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## NightmareCinema (Nov 20, 2016)

Each dimension is a universe in and of itself, from what I've seen.

Kamina holding that TV for Yoko to see what other versions of her life in the labyrinth she could see kinda sold it for me as the constantly shifting place that it is.

Not to mention that each member of Team Dai-Gurren were off doing their own thing and the only thing that woke them up was Simon acting as a beacon.

Gonna have to rewatch 26 and 27 again, though, since it's been years.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 21, 2016)

ssjjshawn said:


> Zarmasu is the Dragon Ball universe, which is far bigger than ours.
> And the Blitzing part stops the second things from happening


So? STTGL was in a dimension which was far bigger then ours which galaxies even 100 times bigger than ours
Can he really blitz? All the good calc and stuff come from whis, which is above Zamasu, and even then.



xenos5 said:


> Proof he can do that to a non-corporeal being?


When was Zamasu non-corporeal? He became the universal thing but Goku hit him. Even with that, they can easily punch the space-time, if zeno killed him by simply destroying all the universe I don't see why TTGL would have a problem


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## Toaa (Nov 21, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> So? STTGL was in a dimension which was far bigger then ours which galaxies even 100 times bigger than ours
> Can he really blitz? All the good calc and stuff come from whis, which is above Zamasu, and even then.
> 
> 
> When was Zamasu non-corporeal? He became the universal thing but Goku hit him. Even with that, they can easily punch the space-time, if zeno killed him by simply destroying all the universe I don't see why TTGL would have a problem


He destroyed 12 universes to do that and anti spiral cant goku vegeta and trunks all could destroy a universe much larger than ours but it didnt even tickle gigyas zamasu


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 21, 2016)

Toaa said:


> He destroyed 12 universes to do that and anti spiral cant goku vegeta and trunks all could destroy a universe much larger than ours but it didnt even tickle gigyas zamasu


I don't think so. All the stuff was about that universe, there's no evidence about all the stuff. Zamasu was in just one universe, tsunks and co. were all tired and stuff

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## neoacacia (Nov 21, 2016)

Toaa said:


> He destroyed 12 universes to do that and anti spiral cant goku vegeta and trunks all could destroy a universe much larger than ours but it didnt even tickle gigyas zamasu


Goku, trunks and vegeta were low on power, were still not sure he spread to all 12 universes yet.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 21, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> So? STTGL was in a dimension which was far bigger then ours which galaxies even 100 times bigger than ours
> Can he really blitz? All the good calc and stuff come from whis, which is above Zamasu, and even then.



Extremely casual Beerus is like 60% of casual Whis in speed, Goku, Vegeta etc are >>> that extremely casual Beerus in speed so he definitely scales to the double digit quadrillions c. Couple that with Zamasu being everywhere in the universe.



> When was Zamasu non-corporeal? He became the universal thing but Goku hit him. Even with that, they can easily punch the space-time



His essence was all the way into space as well and reached all the way to the present timeline, it wasn't only covering Earth. Space-time destruction isn't really helping since all DBS top tiers can destroy space time yet they couldn't phase Zamasu.



> if zeno killed him by simply destroying all the universe I don't see why TTGL would have a problem



Zamasu is faster than TTGL, bigger with extremely casual universal+ DC. How is TTGL killing him without problem when universe level isn't casual for it, specially in terms of range?



Bad Wolf said:


> I don't think so. All the stuff was about that universe, there's no evidence about all the stuff. Zamasu was in just one universe, tsunks and co. were all tired and stuff



There is no evidence for Trunks being low on power, he could still go FSSJG and Goku and Vegeta in base are still universal+.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 21, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Extremely casual Beerus is like 60% of casual Whis in speed, Goku, Vegeta etc are >>> that extremely casual Beerus in speed so he definitely scales to the double digit quadrillions c. Couple that with Zamasu being everywhere in the universe.


Lol wat? You can't try to speak about "casual Beerus" when he's stronger than goku and co. Maybe he was all that casual, maybe even casual he's stronger by a huge margin. That doesn't fly at all



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> His essence was all the way into space as well and reached all the way to the present timeline, it wasn't only covering Earth. Space-time destruction isn't really helping since all DBS top tiers can destroy space time yet they couldn't phase Zamasu.


His essence was in the present timeline only because of the dimensional rift or the ring, he was in the same rift and didn't even corrupt other stuff here. I know what he wanted to do, but you can't assume that he's incorporeal only because of that, all we've seen is that he was spreading but energy attack could touch him



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Zamasu is faster than TTGL, bigger with extremely casual universal+ DC. How is TTGL killing him without problem when universe level isn't casual for it, specially in terms of range?


Faster for a calc of someone stronger. Bigger is meaningless, even because he's bigger than the TTGL but I'm not quite sure about the STTGL. And I even don't think it's so "casual universal DC+" Dragon ball is so inconsistant and nobody busted a universe with a casual attack. Even with that they have energy absorption, probability manipulation, create/destroy universal sized dimension, the multiverse illusion and many other stuff

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Nov 21, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> His essence was in the present timeline only because of the dimensional rift *or the ring*, he was in the same rift and didn't even corrupt other stuff here. I know what he wanted to do, but you can't assume that he's incorporeal only because of that, all we've seen is that he was spreading but energy attack could touch him



The ring had to have been destroyed. And a dimensional rift doesn't just randomly occur. Giygas Zamasu had to have opened it himself and was likely going to corrupt that universe but was destroyed before he could. Being a living universe/multiverse by default makes you incorporeal. We have the actual Giygas and other beings listed as incorporeal because of that.



Bad Wolf said:


> Faster for a calc of someone stronger. Bigger is meaningless, even because he's bigger than the TTGL but I'm not quite sure about the STTGL. And I even don't think it's so "casual universal DC+" Dragon ball is so inconsistant and nobody busted a universe with a casual attack.



You have no proof Beerus is far above fusion Zamasu. Even before he became a Giygas expy when they first sensed Fusion Zamasu his power was said to be unlike any gods they encountered to that point. 

Base Goku with God Ki destroyed a combined attack that was more powerful than the previous universe level attack Beerus nullified that was going to destroy the universe. SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, False SSB Trunks etc... are far above base Goku with god ki from the Battle of Gods arc. Fusion Zamasu is even more powerful than all of them so he would have to be casual universe level+ by that point.



Bad Wolf said:


> Even with that they have energy absorption, probability manipulation, create/destroy universal sized dimension, the multiverse illusion and many other stuff



Energy absorption is nothing new for dragonball characters and STTGL's absorption limit is likely below Giygas Zamasu's maximum output. Giygas Zamasu is above multiple universe level+ characters so the power to destroy a universe sized dimension wouldn't do anything to him. There's no proof the multiverse illusion would affect an incorporeal being. And probability manipulation won't do much of anything against a living universe who can attack from pretty much anywhere as he has limited omnipresence.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 21, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Lol wat? You can't try to speak about "casual Beerus" when he's stronger than goku and co. Maybe he was all that casual, maybe even casual he's stronger by a huge margin. That doesn't fly at all


Beerus says it has been a while since he last used 10% of his power when he fought Vegeta, meaning he was using less than 10% of his power when he did his speed feat.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 21, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> The ring had to have been destroyed. And a dimensional rift doesn't just randomly occur. Giygas Zamasu had to have opened it himself and was likely going to corrupt that universe but was destroyed before he could. Being a living universe/multiverse by default makes you incorporeal. We have the actual Giygas and other beings listed as incorporeal because of that.


I don't remember any destruction of the ring. Maybe he wasn't showing after the fusion but not destroyed. And yes, the rift doesn't occur randomly, that's why it's the only other place that was corrupted and not any other timeline or universe or other. Even zeno seems to don't understand/use time powers so it's hard to believe that. Being a universe is a thing but you have to go case by case. Here zamasu is in the physical stuff, not even all (not the people for example) and the face was hit by an energy attack so it's  clearly don't incorporeal for that. Of course maybe he won't die by only destroying a flying face or stuff like that



xenos5 said:


> You have no proof Beerus is far above fusion Zamasu. Even before he became a Giygas expy when they first sensed Fusion Zamasu his power was said to be unlike any gods they encountered to that point.


Well, they even met Zeno, but as we saw he wasn't on that level. And we even don't have anything to say that zamasu is stronger than beerus except that he seems to be far above anyone, always. It would be an exception if zamasu was stronger



xenos5 said:


> Base Goku with God Ki destroyed a combined attack that was more powerful than the previous universe level attack Beerus nullified that was going to destroy the universe. SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, False SSB Trunks etc... are far above base Goku with god ki from the Battle of Gods arc. Fusion Zamasu is even more powerful than all of them so he would have to be casual universe level+ by that point.


It's a bit of flawed logic when people like Trunks can be far weaker and then fight them, then becoming even stronger and stuff. They are universal level, that's all and that's not even too far impressive, because the IBBS's mass energy was quintillions of times greater than the universe and the TTGL absorbed that



xenos5 said:


> Energy absorption is nothing new for dragonball characters


From when?



xenos5 said:


> STTGL's absorption limit is likely below Giygas Zamasu's maximum output. Giygas Zamasu is above multiple universe level+ characters so the power to destroy a universe sized dimension wouldn't do anything to him.
> There's no proof the multiverse illusion would affect an incorporeal being. And probability manipulation won't do much of anything against a living universe who can attack from pretty much anywhere as he has limited omnipresence.


Lol, that's a lot of big assumption. Having the power to destroy a single universe is not impossible for the TTGL, I don't think there's a calc that put them above the IBBS energy, so I'd say that they can absorb his attack. Destroying a universe killed him, even if he became the universe he won't survive. You need feat to claim that he's unaffected by the illusion, something that Zamasu don't have. The probabily manipulation can work with stuff like that, even the lower form of the TTGL can attack every single point of the space and the probability manipulation can even make an attack have 0 effect. And we are speaking about zamasu with the universe corruption, if he start in base he's pretty much fucked at the beginning



Ayy lmao said:


> Beerus says it has been a while since he last used 10% of his power when he fought Vegeta, meaning he was using less than 10% of his power when he did his speed feat.


Wasn't the speed feat from when he went to whis? And the all % stuff if I'm not mistaken is only one the movies and was taken out in the episode but I'm not sure


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## xenos5 (Nov 21, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> I don't remember any destruction of the ring. Maybe he wasn't showing after the fusion but not destroyed. And yes, the rift doesn't occur randomly, that's why it's the only other place that was corrupted and not any other timeline or universe or other. Even zeno seems to don't understand/use time powers so it's hard to believe that. Being a universe is a thing but you have to go case by case. Here zamasu is in the physical stuff, not even all (not the people for example) *and the face was hit by an energy attack so it's  clearly don't incorporeal for that.* Of course maybe he won't die by only destroying a flying face or stuff like that




That was before Zamasu had completely covered the planet and then transmitted outward becoming the universe. 

I'm saying the ring had to have been destroyed when fusion Zamasu dissolved after Trunks's attack before he became the universe. 



Bad Wolf said:


> Well, they even met Zeno, but as we saw he wasn't on that level. And we even don't have anything to say that zamasu is stronger than beerus except that he seems to be far above anyone, always. It would be an exception if zamasu was stronger



Fusion Zamasu has better feats than Beerus. So until proven otherwise Fusion Zamasu>>>Beerus. 




Bad Wolf said:


> It's a bit of flawed logic when people like Trunks can be far weaker and then fight them, then becoming even stronger and stuff. They are universal level, that's all and that's not even too far impressive, because the IBBS's mass energy was quintillions of times greater than the universe and the TTGL absorbed that



Trunks isn't far weaker. He became a lot stronger through his training with Vegeta (or possibly multiple zenkais from fighting Black many times over the course of a year). Where's your proof of the infinity big bang storm being "quintillions" of times greater than the universe? I never heard mention of that when watching the anime. 




Bad Wolf said:


> From when?



Android 19 and 20.




Bad Wolf said:


> Lol, that's a lot of big assumption. Having the power to destroy a single universe is not impossible for the TTGL, I don't think there's a calc that put them above the IBBS energy, so I'd say that they can absorb his attack. Destroying a universe killed him, even if he became the universe he won't survive. You need feat to claim that he's unaffected by the illusion, something that Zamasu don't have. The probabily manipulation can work with stuff like that, even the lower form of the TTGL can attack every single point of the space and the probability manipulation can even make an attack have 0 effect. And we are speaking about zamasu with the universe corruption, if he start in base he's pretty much fucked at the beginning



I don't believe the infinity big bang storm is as powerful as you say it is. STTGL may be universe level+ but I believe Fusion Zamasu to be Universe level+ to a far more casual degree. I don't need a feat to claim he can resist the illusion. You have to provide a feat of the Anti Spiral successfully using the illusion on a being of Zamasu's scale. Anti Spiral only really used it on the humans inside the TTGL mech. If he started in base it wouldn't matter as even if he were to receive a fatal wound he'd just become Giygas Zamasu again. 

I never recall TTGL "attacking every point of space" like you're saying it has. And the probability manipulation has never affected the attacks of a being as powerful as fusion Zamasu. 




Bad Wolf said:


> Wasn't the speed feat from when he went to whis? And the all % stuff if I'm not mistaken is only one the movies and was taken out in the episode but I'm not sure



Beerus did mention that it's been a long time since he'd had to use 10% after having to deal with rage boost SSJ2 Vegeta. So it wasn't entirely taken out. The speed feat is when he went to the dino planet after Whis reached it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 21, 2016)

There are two other calcs that put DBS top tiers in the quadrillions range, one was 72 quadrillions and the other was 200 quadrillions, I think. Most other top tiers DBS characters scale to like a half of that, which still puts them above TTGL's faster speed which is 25 quadrillions c. Couple that with the fact that Zamasu is omnipresent, with higher DC and can attack from any distance or point in space with more energy than TTGL can absorb. Even if TTGL could absorb a single universal+ beam from Zamasu, which can come from any point in space, it's doubtful whether he could absorb another one at the same time specially when it could only absorb an universal+ attack with extreme difficult during the fight with the AS.


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## Blocky (Nov 21, 2016)

I don't remember how fusion zamasu is even more powerful then beerus at all.


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## Juub (Nov 22, 2016)

Blocky said:


> I don't remember how fusion zamasu is even more powerful then beerus at all.


He's at least as powerful as Beerus has showed up to this point. It was said he was on a completely different level from anything before. Beerus never fought at 100% yet so it's hard to peg how strong he is compared to fuse Zamasu. He might be stronger, he might be weaker. Kinda leaning towards stronger because full power Beerus seems to be something they are reserving for a special occasion.


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## Xhominid (Nov 22, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> It is as long as the character has feats of actually doing that or something on a similar level. However, I don't think Anti-Spiral has displayed illusory mind manipulation on that scale nor has it done it to the likes of a living universe like Zamasu's final form (which dwarfs our own to boot). I'd imagine the sheer size would give Zamasu ridiculous mental resistance anyway.



But the most hilarious part about all of this? Zamasu is basically Giygas in more ways than one, including the fact that while his spirit was still active, he basically lost all sense of reason and was nothing more than pure destructive malice.
I don't even think he had a mind TO infect at that point and reverted to a beast.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 22, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> That was before Zamasu had completely covered the planet and then transmitted outward becoming the universe.
> 
> I'm saying the ring had to have been destroyed when fusion Zamasu dissolved after Trunks's attack before he became the universe.


before or after he only expanded, no one said anything about being incorporeal or changing stuff. And the ring seems the opposite, rather it's always black+zamasu which expanded in the universe, with the fusion they had the ring and the rift is always the same. It's quite clear that he showed only because of that



xenos5 said:


> Fusion Zamasu has better feats than Beerus. So until proven otherwise Fusion Zamasu>>>Beerus.


That's not how this works. He have even better feats than Whis but that doesn't mean anything when these two haven't got a proper fight. Also, Zamasu don't have better feats than beerus, if he had better feats why you'll need to use their calc? He would have a better speed feats or a better destruction feat, but he don't. No one even claimed that he could destroy the universe, we only think that he could because of powerscaling



xenos5 said:


> Trunks isn't far weaker. He became a lot stronger through his training with Vegeta (or possibly multiple zenkais from fighting Black many times over the course of a year). Where's your proof of the infinity big bang storm being "quintillions" of times greater than the universe? I never heard mention of that when watching the anime.


Trunks power is incostant as fuck, that's all we need to know. My claim come from TTGL (the user)

Who did most of the calc. And keep in mind that TTGL even if it's famous have some calc but I think there are many feats that weren't measured. There's even a calc that show the dimension of the Anti spiral to be 2.895.400.000.000 LY if I'm not mistaken

I can't even speak about all the energy or stuff because I'm not such an expert but I think that someone can do a better job then me about that.


xenos5 said:


> Android 19 and 20.


That was quite limited, I mean that only those two did that and with a very small energy compared to the TTGL



xenos5 said:


> I don't believe the infinity big bang storm is as powerful as you say it is.


There was a calc about that, and that's far more better than lolpowerscaling, specially with dragon ball.


xenos5 said:


> I don't need a feat to claim he can resist the illusion.


Err, yes you do. I know that anti spiral can use illusion, you are the one claiming that Zamasu is incorporeal or not affected by illusion, you have the burden of proof. None of these stuff was showed or even suggested



xenos5 said:


> If he started in base it wouldn't matter as even if he were to receive a fatal wound he'd just become Giygas Zamasu again.


In base he gets punched outside of space time or just putted in an illusion, end of the day



xenos5 said:


> I never recall TTGL "attacking every point of space" like you're saying it has.


You remember wrong, chouginga gurren lagann can do that, he can even attack through time.



xenos5 said:


> Beerus did mention that it's been a long time since he'd had to use 10% after having to deal with rage boost SSJ2 Vegeta. So it wasn't entirely taken out. The speed feat is when he went to the dino planet after Whis reached it.


And so? It's even pretty clear that many times beerus lies or talk about bullshit



xenos5 said:


> And the probability manipulation has never affected the attacks of a being as powerful as fusion Zamasu.


Lol. Yeah, it affected the TTGL/anti spiral which are more powerful



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Couple that with the fact that Zamasu is omnipresent, with higher DC and can attack from any distance or point in space with more energy than TTGL can absorb.


He's everywhere, but not really omnipresent, don't start using term when they aren't right. He doesn't have higher DC, and even the TTGL can attack from any point in space, but that is something that was said in the TTGL series but not with zamasu. And again no, TTGL showed that he can absorb much more energy than that

@TTGL Sorry to bother you, can you please help us about some numbers of the TTGL?


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 22, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> before or after he only expanded, no one said anything about being incorporeal or changing stuff. And the ring seems the opposite, rather it's always black+zamasu which expanded in the universe, with the fusion they had the ring and the rift is always the same. It's quite clear that he showed only because of that



Yes he is. Gowasu said he was trying to become the universe and he did. He also stated that Zamasu was becoming justice and order, he pretty much became a concept at that point which is the definition of incorporeal no matter how you slice it. Also Zamasu showing up due to a rift or there even being a rift in the first place since it was already closed, is just conjecture.



> That's not how this works. He have even better feats than Whis but that doesn't mean anything when these two haven't got a proper fight. Also, Zamasu don't have better feats than beerus, if he had better feats why you'll need to use their calc? He would have a better speed feats or a better destruction feat, but he don't. No one even claimed that he could destroy the universe, we only think that he could because of powerscaling



It's already established that God ki users like Goku, and specially fusions like Zamasu and Vegeto get scaled to Beerus and Whis in speed when the later aren't going all out. Since it's stupid to think they are going to be orders of magnitude slower. If you disagree with this take it to the meta or the DBS feats thread.



> Who did most of the calc. And keep in mind that TTGL even if it's famous have some calc but I think there are many feats that weren't measured. There's even a calc that show the dimension of the Anti spiral to be 2.895.400.000.000 LY if I'm not mistaken



About the energy of the feat, the reason a calc wasn't made for the Goku vs Beerus feat is because there was no need to make one. The result would be that they were going to empty the entire material universe as well as the other world (which is 2x bigger than our observable universe) as well as time and space. That's as high as you can get on the universal scale without destroying all matter and time and space of an even bigger universe (.



> In base he gets punched outside of space time or just putted in an illusion, end of the day



Vegeta as well as Goku Black were shown to be able to destroy space time, sorry but space time destruction isn't doing anything. Even in base he has superior speed to TTGL and the AS and superior mobility with his instant teleportation, so he can get an attack off before TTGL/AS do their thing.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Nov 22, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Trunks power is incostant as fuck, that's all we need to know. My claim come from TTGL (the user)
> 
> Who did most of the calc. And keep in mind that TTGL even if it's famous have some calc but I think there are many feats that weren't measured. There's even a calc that show the dimension of the Anti spiral to be 2.895.400.000.000 LY if I'm not mistaken
> 
> I can't even speak about all the energy or stuff because I'm not such an expert but I think that someone can do a better job then me about that.



Endless Mike gave a pretty thorough rebuttal to that calc in its comment section from what I see. So the calc has yet to be accepted. Not usable as evidence yet. At least not until EM's problems with the calcs are addressed by TTGL and EM finds the explanation satisfactory.





Bad Wolf said:


> That was quite limited, I mean that only those two did that and with a very small energy compared to the TTGL



And Fusion Zamasu has energy above TTGL.


There was a calc about that, and that's far more better than lolpowerscaling, specially with dragon ball.




Bad Wolf said:


> Err, yes you do. I know that anti spiral can use illusion, you are the one claiming that Zamasu is incorporeal or not affected by illusion, you have the burden of proof. None of these stuff was showed or even suggested



I already provided proof Zamasu as a universe is incorporeal and that's what would make it so he's unaffected by the illusion.





Bad Wolf said:


> In base he gets punched outside of space time or just putted in an illusion, end of the day



You're referring to Arc Gurren Lagann's ability with the space-time punch right? Arc Gurren Lagann is nowhere near powerful enough to do anything to Fusion Zamasu. He would tank the punch and not get blasted back in a spiral like that one mech that was punched out of space time.

And from my understanding of the multiverse illusion... do you even need mind hax resistance to resist it? It seemed like Simon just resisted it with strength of will.




Bad Wolf said:


> You remember wrong, chouginga gurren lagann can do that, he can even attack through time.



Provide proof of this.




Bad Wolf said:


> And so? It's even pretty clear that many times beerus lies or talk about bullshit



Why would Beerus lie about using a percentage of his power? It wouldn't make him look stronger. It'd make him look weaker if anything.




Bad Wolf said:


> Lol. Yeah, it affected the TTGL/anti spiral which are more powerful



I don't believe they are as powerful as Giygas Zamasu.




Bad Wolf said:


> He's everywhere, but not really omnipresent, don't start using term when they aren't right. He doesn't have higher DC, and even the TTGL can attack from any point in space, but that is something that was said in the TTGL series but not with zamasu. And again no, TTGL showed that he can absorb much more energy than that



He does have higher DC. Being a universe automatically grants you limited omnipresence. Your claim of TTGL absorbing much more energy was based on a calc that has not been accepted.


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## SSBMonado (Nov 22, 2016)

Being universal in Dragon Ball already means you are about 10 times above baseline universe level, since each of the 12 macrocosms in DB include both the physical universe and the afterlife. 

So BoG arc base Goku despite being weakened to shit could punch out a universe level attack. This version of Goku would be complete fodder to Zamasu, who could keep up with SSB Goku and FSSB Trunks. 

Add to that that even when combined, base Goku, base Vegeta and FSSB Trunks could only barely deflect ONE of Giygamasu's beams and you should have yourself a stomp. 
In fact, I'm not seeing how TTGL could stand up to even regular future Zamasu.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 22, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Yes he is. Gowasu said he was trying to become the universe and he did. He also stated that Zamasu was becoming justice and order, he pretty much became a concept at that point which is the definition of incorporeal no matter how you slice it.


He was becoming the unvierse, ok. Becoming "justice and order" is just meaningless, you can't try to put like zamasu's power are like some comics abstract being. They attacked him but didn't have enough energy, but he wasn't a concept or incorporeal. That's just a NLF



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> It's already established that God ki users like Goku, and specially fusions like Zamasu and Vegeto get scaled to Beerus and Whis in speed when the later aren't going all out. Since it's stupid to think they are going to be orders of magnitude slower. If you disagree with this take it to the meta or the DBS feats thread.


Established by who? I don't need to go in the thread of dragon ball to speak about that, even out of here there's enough fanboy who would even claim that goku have infinite speed or stuff like that. How can you scale someone stronger to someone weaker? 



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> About the energy of the feat, the reason a calc wasn't made for the Goku vs Beerus feat is because there was no need to make one. The result would be that they were going to empty the entire material universe as well as the other world (which is 2x bigger than our observable universe) as well as time and space. That's as high as you can get on the universal scale without destroying all matter and time and space of an even bigger universe (.


The reason was because it was never destroyed, that's all. The anti spiral dimension is way way bigger than that, and they destroyed everything inside and then the dimension itself was destroyed. You people speak above X being above Y universal level, but that doesn't matter, here we go by calc and with that the TTGL is just stronger. It's like DBZ with Cell/Bu that are star level as Freezer



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Vegeta as well as Goku Black were shown to be able to destroy space time, sorry but space time destruction isn't doing anything. Even in base he has superior speed to TTGL and the AS and superior mobility with his instant teleportation, so he can get an attack off before TTGL/AS do their thing.


It's quite difficult to say "shown". Vegeta destroyed the chamber, maybe? Or maybe he got out before or other stuff. IT was too easily accepted like that. Black created a rift in space, which maybe is correlated but they never explained what it was. Even TTGL have teleport and they showed that they can teleport their attack or the robot with a drill in the front. DB only showed teleport and then attack, so it's even a version with less feats



xenos5 said:


> Endless Mike gave a pretty thorough rebuttal to that calc in its comment section from what I see. So the calc has yet to be accepted. Not usable as evidence yet. At least not until EM's problems with the calcs are addressed by TTGL and EM finds the explanation satisfactory.


The calc I quoted from here (the size of the dimension) is fine but even all the question are fine, the drill aren't made of energy or abstract or intangible, that's for sure. the IBBS that you don't believe isn't even here lol




xenos5 said:


> And Fusion Zamasu has energy above TTGL.


Based on what? Another lowered powerscaling? 



xenos5 said:


> I already provided proof Zamasu as a universe is incorporeal and that's what would make it so he's unaffected by the illusion.


No, you haven't provided proof about zamasu incorporeal. And that doesn't give him immunity, you keep only claiming stuff as they were feats. 



xenos5 said:


> Why would Beerus lie about using a percentage of his power? It wouldn't make him look stronger. It'd make him look weaker if anything.


Because that's what he does all the time, try to search for a worth opponent, hoping to increase the level of vegeta and Goku. and all the % crap doesn't fly at all



xenos5 said:


> You're referring to Arc Gurren Lagann's ability with the space-time punch right? Arc Gurren Lagann is nowhere near powerful enough to do anything to Fusion Zamasu. He would tank the punch and not get blasted back in a spiral like that one mech that was punched out of space time.


the TTGL can do the same stuff just fine. 



xenos5 said:


> And from my understanding of the multiverse illusion... do you even need mind hax resistance to resist it? It seemed like Simon just resisted it with strength of will.


It put in a illusion where you don't have any powers, Simon escaped with his will and the help of kamina, that's a feat



xenos5 said:


> Provide proof of this.


for example

And if I remember well there was even another time where they said that. Anyway even I'm waiting fro proof because you made a lot of claim without proof (abstract, immune to illusion, probability manipulation...). Even I can take out statement and say that zamasu lose because stuff. For example

Which they completely destroyed. So I really can't see why becoming one with a universe would even be a problem. Anti spiral was claimed to be something like that but he even got more feat and visual evidence



xenos5 said:


> I don't believe they are as powerful as Giygas Zamasu.


Then we're lucky to don't lose believes as proof but calc



xenos5 said:


> He does have higher DC. Being a universe automatically grants you limited omnipresence. Your claim of TTGL absorbing much more energy was based on a calc that has not been accepted.


Nope


SSBMonado said:


> In fact, I'm not seeing how TTGL could stand up to even regular future Zamasu.


Lol. You get someone too maybe reach universal level and the DB fanbase explode. Please

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Nov 22, 2016)

It's getting to be annoying trying to debate with you. It seems like you're just constantly stonewalling and making up shit at this point (Beerus lying for no reason because you say so). 

I'd be willing to continue this debate with other users but I see no point in continuing to debate with you specifically when you've just stopped making cogent arguments entirely.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 22, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> It's getting to be annoying trying to debate with you. It seems like you're just constantly stonewalling and making up shit at this point (Beerus lying for no reason because you say so).


Really? You started with "Zamasu is immune to illusion" "Zamasu is immune to probability alteration" and always without having a single screen or proof about that. Always saying things like "Zamasu is stronger" without having any base. No, that doesn't work with me, stop complain and try to argue instead.



xenos5 said:


> I'd be willing to continue this debate with other users but I see no point in continuing to debate with you specifically when you've just stopped making cogent arguments entirely.


You never did an arguments.


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## xenos5 (Nov 22, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Really? You started with "Zamasu is immune to illusion" "Zamasu is immune to probability alteration" and always without having a single screen or proof about that. Always saying things like "Zamasu is stronger" without having any base. No, that doesn't work with me, stop complain and try to argue instead.



Zamasu is stronger because he is far above universe+ level  characters (SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and FSSB Trunks) who are above universe+ characters (SSJ Goku with God Ki and SSJ Vegeta with god ki), and so on and so forth (Base Goku with god ki, Base Vegeta with god ki). 

STTGL IMO just reaches universe level+ and that's it. I do have a basis for Fusion Zamasu being stronger. All you have are calcs that weren't accepted. I do have a basis for claiming Zamasu is an incorporeal being after he became the universe. We list other beings like Giygas who are the universe itself as incorporeal. I do have a basis for saying the multiversal illusion wouldn't work on Giygas Zamasu. The Anti-Spiral has never shown the ability to use it on an incorporeal being.


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 22, 2016)

Bad Wolf, when Trunks "killed" Zamasu, he destroyed his physical body. Having no *physical *body, Zamasu's soul then became the universe, meaning he was non-corporal. How's that an NLF? 

Vegeta, Goku and other characters weaker than Beerus, get scaled to his speed, because when Beerus did his speed feat, he used less of his power than when he fought Vegeta and Goku.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 22, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> He was becoming the unvierse, ok. Becoming "justice and order" is just meaningless, you can't try to put like zamasu's power are like some comics abstract being.



So Gowasu's exposition about how Zamasu was becoming a concept that governs the universe is meaningless? Lol ok.



> They attacked him but didn't have enough energy, but he wasn't a concept or incorporeal. That's just a NLF



No. They attacked him and couldn't do anything because of what Zamasu had become. Their attacks evaporated harmlessly before him, they weren't even able to touch him. Also I don't think you know what a NLF is.



> Established by who? I don't need to go in the thread of dragon ball to speak about that, even out of here there's enough fanboy who would even claim that goku have infinite speed or stuff like that.



Established by the more respected debaters here like GM. Quite frankly downplaying the feats in a series so that your favorites can stand a chance is quite frowned here, just take a look at the DB vs SS threads. And that's what you're doing.



> How can you scale someone stronger to someone weaker?



Because in this case the stronger character exterted more effort fighting the weaker character.



> The reason was because it was never destroyed, that's all. The anti spiral dimension is way way bigger than that, and they destroyed everything inside and then the dimension itself was destroyed. You people speak above X being above Y universal level, but that doesn't matter, here we go by calc and with that the TTGL is just stronger. It's like DBZ with Cell/Bu that are star level as Freezer



It wasn't destroyed only because Beerus nullified the energy, otherwise it would have vaporized the universe, specially when you consider weaker attacks were turning distant planets into particles. Again, take this to the meta if you want to argue DBS isn't universe level. Also please provide citation of the size of the AS dimension.



> It's quite difficult to say "shown". Vegeta destroyed the chamber, maybe? Or maybe he got out before or other stuff.



Lol. You're trying too hard, dude.



> Black created a rift in space, which maybe is correlated but they never explained what it was.



Whatever the rift was doesn't matter since it doesn't change the fact it was a rift in space.



> Even TTGL have teleport and they showed that they can teleport their attack or the robot with a drill in the front. DB only showed teleport and then attack, so it's even a version with less feats



I have no clue what you're trying to say

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toaa (Nov 22, 2016)

neoacacia said:


> Goku, trunks and vegeta were low on power, were still not sure he spread to all 12 universes yet.


A goku in ssj who was totally drained and wounded deflected a universal+ attack.Your point?


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## Toaa (Nov 22, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> I don't think so. All the stuff was about that universe, there's no evidence about all the stuff. Zamasu was in just one universe, tsunks and co. were all tired and stuff


So zamasu started appearing in the main timeline before he finished with the future one?thats not how it works


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 22, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> The reason was because it was never destroyed, that's all. The anti spiral dimension is way way bigger than that, and they destroyed everything inside and then the dimension itself was destroyed. You people speak above X being above Y universal level, but that doesn't matter, here we go by calc and with that the TTGL is just stronger. It's like DBZ with Cell/Bu that are star level as Freezer



First of all, The DBZ universe is 10x the size of the observerable universe which god tiers in DBZ can destroy.


Secondly, Universal destructive power is not something you can put a number on, because destroying space and time can't be done by simply having enough energy. You can put a number on the energy needed to empty the universe, but you can't put a number needed to destroy spacetime.  So you can't say the anti spiral is stronger than Zamasu, because of a calc, when both are universal+.


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## God Movement (Nov 22, 2016)

Correction. It's 10x Universe AoE. It's 2x universe volume. Empty space around the Kai Realm doesn't count for DC.


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## Sablés (Nov 22, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Correction. It's 10x Universe AoE. It's 2x universe volume. Empty space around the Kai Realm doesn't count for DC.


He'd still be eradicating the space around that area so that counts for ~hax I figure


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 22, 2016)

I rest my case


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## saint rider 890 (Nov 22, 2016)

So just how far Supreme God Zamasu do you think he can solo TTGL verse ànd beat anti spiral and STTGL ?


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## Blocky (Nov 22, 2016)

He could beat the TTGL verse if he's beyond their hax.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## xenos5 (Nov 22, 2016)

saint rider 890 said:


> So just how far Supreme God Zamasu do you think he can solo TTGL verse ànd beat anti spiral and STTGL ?



He should solo, really.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Flashlight237 (Nov 22, 2016)

God Movement said:


> You have to be daft to think he only destroyed U7. The whole reason why Goku took him to the past to meet the other Zen'o and why he was so excited to go is because there was nothing left for him in the future because he destroyed everything.
> 
> And of course you have Herms98 with the same interpretation.
> 
> ...


Is Herms98 even an official source?



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> I'm curious about this. Can you affect a non-corporeal with more mundane kinds of hax like illusions and mindfuck  I don't think it'll be possible to be able to "target" him, but I don't know.


I dunno. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks managed to touch Zamasu with their signature attacks. At least I think that's what went on. It's hard to tell what Zamasu's response to their attack implied.

On a side note, first, the Bittercold and now Zamasu? Why is everyone wanting to rip off Giygas?


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## xenos5 (Nov 23, 2016)

Flashlight237 said:


> Is Herms98 even an official source?



He's one of the best damn translators you could ask for.



Flashlight237 said:


> I dunno. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks managed to touch Zamasu with their signature attacks. At least I think that's what went on. It's hard to tell what Zamasu's response to their attack implied.



When that happened Zamasu had not yet became the universe. His being had not yet even fully dispersed to the point where it fully covered the planet.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 23, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Zamasu is stronger because he is far above universe+ level characters (SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and FSSB Trunks) who are above universe+ characters (SSJ Goku with God Ki and SSJ Vegeta with god ki), and so on and so forth (Base Goku with god ki, Base Vegeta with god ki).


Which by numbers are all below TTGL, let alone the STTGL



xenos5 said:


> STTGL IMO just reaches universe level+ and that's it. I do have a basis for Fusion Zamasu being stronger. All you have are calcs that weren't accepted. I do have a basis for claiming Zamasu is an incorporeal being after he became the universe. We list other beings like Giygas who are the universe itself as incorporeal. I do have a basis for saying the multiversal illusion wouldn't work on Giygas Zamasu. The Anti-Spiral has never shown the ability to use it on an incorporeal being.


Lol at calc that weren't accepted. You want to ask to EM about DBS calc? You don't have basis, you have your own idea that as far I see it's only some wank stuff. 



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> So Gowasu's exposition about how Zamasu was becoming a concept that governs the universe is meaningless? Lol ok.


Even anti spiral can do that stuff, even the TTGL, and they showed that they can take control of someone who can do this. So yes, it's even more meaningless because it's only a statement that doesn't have any other backup. It's like I bring statement about TTGL doing the impossible or stuff like that.



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> No. They attacked him and couldn't do anything because of what Zamasu had become. Their attacks evaporated harmlessly before him, they weren't even able to touch him.


The attacked was blocked by the face or something about that, don't start putting even more fantasy feat like vaporizing energy and stuff



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Because in this case the stronger character exterted more effort fighting the weaker character.


And you know that they are strong as the him because...? No, that doesn't work, in OP it's even debated if WB DC apply to admiral durability and all. Just because some DB fan accept that it doesn't mean it' accepted generally



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Quite frankly downplaying the feats in a series so that your favorites can stand a chance is quite frowned here, just take a look at the DB vs SS threads. And that's what you're doing.


meaningless arguments, I can say the same stuff to you but at least I have some calc as backup



Ayy lmao said:


> First of all, The DBZ universe is 10x the size of the observerable universe which god tiers in DBZ can destroy.
> 
> 
> Secondly, Universal destructive power is not something you can put a number on, because destroying space and time can't be done by simply having enough energy. You can put a number on the energy needed to empty the universe, but you can't put a number needed to destroy spacetime. So you can't say the anti spiral is stronger than Zamasu, because of a calc, when both are universal+.


The anti spiral dimension was bigger than that so I don't know what are yo trying to say with that. And I know that, but Zamasu isn't in the multiversal tier, so unless you want to argue that they are universal and so it's stalement



Ayy lmao said:


> How's that an NLF?


I'm not saying that being an abstract is a NLF, I say that a NLF is trying to say that he's immune to every kind of hax because of what he showed. He didn't showed any resistance to probability manipulation and the TTGL/anti spiral showed that they can do that on an universal scale


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 23, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> The anti spiral dimension was bigger than that so I don't know what are yo trying to say with that. And I know that, but Zamasu isn't in the multiversal tier, so unless you want to argue that they are universal and so it's stalement


How big is their universe?


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 23, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> How big is their universe?


2895400000000 LY

The light is the collision of the STTGL giga drill breaker with the drill of anti spiral. Even the two drills alone are bigger than the regular observable universe


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 23, 2016)

isn't that movie non canon?


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## Flashlight237 (Nov 23, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> isn't that movie non canon?


I think that scene was part of what I'm sure is the ending of Gurren Laagan. Pretty sure endings are canon.


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## xenos5 (Nov 23, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Which by numbers are all below TTGL, let alone the STTGL



Numbers for calcs that weren't accepted. 



Bad Wolf said:


> Lol at calc that weren't accepted. You want to ask to EM about DBS calc? You don't have basis, you have your own idea that as far I see it's only some wank stuff.



The DBS calcs have had other experienced/professional calcers look at them and agree to them whereas the calc you put forward had EM give a rebuttal that the calc creator didn't reply to.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 23, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Even anti spiral can do that stuff, even the TTGL, and they showed that they can take control of someone who can do this. So yes, it's even more meaningless because it's only a statement that doesn't have any other backup. It's like I bring statement about TTGL doing the impossible or stuff like that.



You need to look at the context though. In this case Gowasu's statement that Zamasu had become order and justice is meaningful because it means Zamasu had merged with the universe to the extent he had control over those concepts.



> The attacked was blocked by the face or something about that, don't start putting even more fantasy feat like vaporizing energy and stuff



Uh, just because his essence had a tangible effect it doesn't mean he wasn't non-corporeal. It was already stated and shown that he lost his body and abandoned his physical form.



> And you know that they are strong as the him because...? No, that doesn't work, in OP it's even debated if WB DC apply to admiral durability and all. Just because some DB fan accept that it doesn't mean it' accepted generally



You're repeating yourself ad nauseum. It has already been explained to you that Beerus himself stated he exerted more effort fighting him than performing that feat. More importantly it was a key plot point in the BoG arc that Beerus hadn't fought anyone strong in a very long time prior to meeting SSJG.



> I'm not saying that being an abstract is a NLF, I say that a NLF is trying to say that he's immune to every kind of hax because of what he showed. He didn't showed any resistance to probability manipulation and the TTGL/anti spiral showed that they can do that on an universal scale



It doesn't work like that. Probably the most important factor in a fight is the nature of the characters fighting. A character is not going to be able to affect an abstract without the feats to back it up, because that would be a very high end feat in itself. Sorry but the burden of proof is on you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 23, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> isn't that movie non canon?


It's canon



xenos5 said:


> Numbers for calcs that weren't accepted.


Look better.



xenos5 said:


> The DBS calcs have had other experienced/professional calcers look at them and agree to them whereas the calc you put forward had EM give a rebuttal that the calc creator didn't reply to.


First of all put here the link, then we see. Anyway you are trying to downplay random things, just one of the calc of TTGL have some point noted by EM and you says "calcs" when it's just one, and for some point and wasn't even against the calc but more doubts so that' only downplay. Then what you claim stuff again without showing proof "other calcers" like? I'm not saying that there aren't but that's a bad way to answer



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> You need to look at the context though. In this case Gowasu's statement that Zamasu had become order and justice is meaningful because it means Zamasu had merged with the universe to the extent he had control over those concepts.


That's just something that you can try to say but there's no proof of demonstration of stuff like that. And it's pointless because even anti spiral did the same thing but for that we have feats



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Uh, just because his essence had a tangible effect it doesn't mean he wasn't non-corporeal. It was already stated and shown that he lost his body and abandoned his physical form.


and just because he merged with the universe it doesn't mean it isn't incorporeal, it was showed that was affected by energy. It's easy, really, that form doesn't have many feats, you can argue about many things but if there's no basis you can't go far away



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> You're repeating yourself ad nauseum.


Don't ramble, don't be rude. You are bringing many arguments without proof or even without showing calcs. That's something that gives nausea



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> It has already been explained to you that Beerus himself stated he exerted more effort fighting him than performing that feat. More importantly it was a key plot point in the BoG arc that Beerus hadn't fought anyone strong in a very long time prior to meeting SSJG.


except that when he perfomed the feats he wasn't fighting, and we know that beerus is stronger than him and train with him, with that in account we can't accept such statement. Even because he didn't lose the fight here, it was always way below his max power



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> It doesn't work like that. Probably the most important factor in a fight is the nature of the characters fighting. A character is not going to be able to affect an abstract without the feats to back it up, because that would be a very high end feat in itself. Sorry but the burden of proof is on you.


Sooo... you claim that you don't need proof or proof for saying that he's abstract or for being affected by hax, even if said immunity is only based of Zamasu being an universe and the Hax in question is based on the manipulation of the universe. That doesn't make any sense, you have the burden, guys you do stuff like this in every DB topic, every single one were you start to argue


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## xenos5 (Nov 23, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Look better.



I know what I read. 




Bad Wolf said:


> First of all put here the link, then we see. Anyway you are trying to downplay random things, just one of the calc of TTGL have some point noted by EM and you says "calcs" when it's just one, and for some point and wasn't even against the calc but more doubts so that' only downplay. Then what you claim stuff again without showing proof "other calcers" like? I'm not saying that there aren't but that's a bad way to answer





God Movement and Iwan looked it over did some adjustments and were fine with the final result. And those doubts EM expressed in the comments section of the calc you posted could severely change the final result.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 23, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> It's canon



Canon only to the movie though. STTGL wasn't in the anime series.



> That's just something that you can try to say but there's no proof of demonstration of stuff like that.



Zamasu's face showing up on the planet as well as in space, not to mention seeping into the present timeline is proof enough. I mean it's not like statements from reliable characters are thrown out, and this is specially true when they are backed up by facts.



> And it's pointless because even anti spiral did the same thing but for that we have feats



I don't think AS became the universe. He was the king of his dimension but he wasn't the dimension itself.



> and just because he merged with the universe it doesn't mean it isn't incorporeal, it was showed that was affected by energy. It's easy, really, that form doesn't have many feats, you can argue about many things but if there's no basis you can't go far away



It was literally stated he relinquished his physical form. Then you see him literally becoming the sky and space. How the hell you become the vaccum of space while having a body? Again being able to interact with physical things doesn't make you non-corporeal.



> Don't ramble, don't be rude. You are bringing many arguments without proof or even without showing calcs. That's something that gives nausea



Feats + character statements detailing the events those feats happen in is pretty solid proof.



> except that when he perfomed the feats he wasn't fighting, and we know that beerus is stronger than him and train with him, with that in account we can't accept such statement. Even because he didn't lose the fight here, it was always way below his max power



Strawman. Him not fighting then doesn't change the fact he exerted much less effort than when he fought Goku.



> Sooo... you claim that you don't need proof or proof for saying that he's abstract or for being affected by hax, even if said immunity is only based of Zamasu being an universe and the Hax in question is based on the manipulation of the universe. That doesn't make any sense, you have the burden, guys you do stuff like this in every DB topic, every single one were you start to argue



Plenty of proof was given to you for Zamasu being an abstract in nature. And also this hax in question was used on humans last I checked. How is the illusion considered universe level when it was going on inside the head of the characters, they weren't shifted to some alt dimension IIRC, it's been a while.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 23, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I know what I read.


I don't think so. EM didn't even had an arguments for all the calc



xenos5 said:


> God Movement and Iwan looked it over did some adjustments and were fine with the final result. And those doubts EM expressed in the comments section of the calc you posted could severely change the final result.


And no one of them said that he can be applied to goku or other.
The calc as far I see wasn't putted in the accept calcs thread.
Iwan is the same who says that the TTGL alone wouldn't sold a single mass energy of the universe attack
 and zamasu scales to that
This calc put them at 993,480,000,000,000c with the high end vs 7,861,376,681,015,393c which is one of the lowest numbers for the TTGL. Most of these stuff where already answered in the hit vs TTGL thread

You even argued and concede about the energy of the TTGL being bigger 





Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Canon only to the movie though. STTGL wasn't in the anime series.


I can't see the point, it was created/producted by the same people who did the original series. It's like saying that DBS is canon only to itself because it wasn't in the manga



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Zamasu's face showing up on the planet as well as in space, not to mention seeping into the present timeline is proof enough. I mean it's not like statements from reliable characters are thrown out, and this is specially true when they are backed up by facts.


Showing his face isn't enough. I know what he did, if you want to claim immunity to these hax you have to try more



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> It was literally stated he relinquished his physical form. Then you see him literally becoming the sky and space. How the hell you become the vaccum of space while having a body? Again being able to interact with physical things doesn't make you non-corporeal.


For you is "being able to interact" for me it's being hit by energy attack. I won't try to make sense of the mess of DBS, even for the face alone or the face in the space I would have said that were at least intangible if they didn't attack or the beam passed though him



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Strawman. Him not fighting then doesn't change the fact he exerted much less effort than when he fought Goku.


Based on what? If he said "fight" that's quite different. This is more stretched by the fact that you're trying to apply a calc to someone weaker



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Plenty of proof was given to you for Zamasu being an abstract in nature. And also this hax in question was used on humans last I checked. How is the illusion considered universe level when it was going on inside the head of the characters, they weren't shifted to some alt dimension IIRC, it's been a while.


I was speaking about the probability manipulation. The only "range" stated for the illusion actually is a multiverse but that doesn't matter. But a good feat of that it's the fact that anti spiral putted his race.
Anyway it's quite useless to speak about general stuff when there's a constant wank of DB in every thread, maybe it's better if I only compare calcs.


@Tacocat sorry for bothering you, can I ask an opinion about all this? There isn't any calc for the speed of the TTGL, right?


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 23, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> except that when he perfomed the feats he wasn't fighting, and we know that beerus is stronger than him and train with him, with that in account we can't accept such statement. Even because he didn't lose the fight here, it was always way below his max power



In DBZ, more power = more speed. This is almost always the case, except for special transformations or power-ups that are stated to only increase strength.

It doesn't matter if he was fighting against Vegeta at one time and only flying in space another time when he did his speed feat, he used more of his power+speed against Vegeta than he had used in years.

How does Beerus training with Vegeta make Vegeta not able to scale to a suppressed Beerus? how does that make any sense?

Also what part of Zamasu not having a physical body do you not understand? What more proof do you need of him being incorporeal? His body does not exist, he is by definition non-corporeal.  If the Anti spiral and TTGL haven't shown that they can harm non-corporeal beings, then they can't do jack to Zamasu. Zamasu doesn't have to show he's immune to their hax, they have to show that their hax work on someone non-corporeal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Nov 23, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> I don't think so. EM didn't even had an arguments for all the calc



Uh what? 

All the problems he had with the calc would drastically change the result. 



Bad Wolf said:


> And no one of them said that he can be applied to goku or other.
> The calc as far I see wasn't putted in the accept calcs thread.
> Iwan is the same who says that the TTGL alone wouldn't sold a single mass energy of the universe attack
> and zamasu scales to that
> ...



Conceding the energy was more powerful than Hit's (who was only listed at multi-galaxy level+ at the time and not universe level+, whereas he is now universe level+) is not the same as conceding it's more powerful than fusion Zamasu who is far above Hit.

Fusion Zamasu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hit.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 23, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> I can't see the point, it was created/producted by the same people who did the original series. It's like saying that DBS is canon only to itself because it wasn't in the manga
> 
> 
> 
> For you is "being able to interact" for me it's being hit by energy attack. I won't try to make sense of the mess of DBS, even for the face alone or the face in the space I would have said that were at least intangible if they didn't attack or the beam passed though him



You're using a different definition of canon. DBS is canon because it follows after the DB manga, the manga not Toei verse like GT. The GL movie is an alternate retelling of the anime, and it differs in some aspects, most notably the final battle against the AS. So it's not canon to the anime series, you can only have one or the other. 



> Showing his face isn't enough. I know what he did, if you want to claim immunity to these hax you have to try more



You might as well have said "I don't like it so it's not true".



> For you is "being able to interact" for me it's being hit by energy attack. I won't try to make sense of the mess of DBS, even for the face alone or the face in the space I would have said that were at least intangible if they didn't attack or the beam passed though him



Yeah, this is a pretty meaningless strawman. Just because Zamasu's essence in the sky interacted in some way with Goku and co's beam attacks doesn't change the fact he is non-corporeal. You are confusing it with intangibility. Incorporeal just means he has no true physical form, but their essence can still exist in a way that's actually tangible, such as being made of energy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Juub (Nov 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Fusion Zamasu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hit.


Who knows. Hit was holding back when he fought and also has his doomsday power-up. What we know is that he has nothing that can kill Zamasu. Given that he is the next arc villain, he may in fact be stronger.


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## xenos5 (Nov 24, 2016)

Juub said:


> Who knows. Hit was holding back when he fought and also has his doomsday power-up. What we know is that he has nothing that can kill Zamasu. Given that he is the next arc villain, he may in fact be stronger.



I find that doubtful. Vegito was required to deal with Fusion Zamasu. It's extremely doubtful a non fusion character who previously matched U6 arc SSB KKx10 Goku would be able to catch up to a fusion god tier character. Unless perhaps Hit gets some REAALLLLLY good hax when his killing techniques are revealed. He certainly isn't surpassing him in power at least.


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## Juub (Nov 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I find that doubtful. Vegito was required to deal with Fusion Zamasu. It's extremely doubtful a non fusion character who previously matched U6 arc SSB KKx10 Goku would be able to catch up to a fusion god tier character. Unless perhaps Hit gets some REAALLLLLY good hax when his killing techniques are revealed. He certainly isn't surpassing him in power at least.


To be fair God-tier fusions really aren't that strong given how easily Kaioken x10 Goku kicked Zamasu. It'd be also a first if the main villain from an arc is not stronger than the one from the previous arc. Unless of course Hit isn't actually the main villain.


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## xenos5 (Nov 24, 2016)

Juub said:


> To be fair God-tier fusions really aren't that strong given how easily Kaioken x10 Goku kicked Zamasu.



Zamasu was just toying with them. And this is KKx10 SSB Goku after a lot of zenkais so it's more powerful than when Goku used it against Hit in the U6 arc.



Juub said:


> It'd be also a first if the main villain from an arc is not stronger than the one from the previous arc. Unless of course Hit isn't actually the main villain.



Hit was the main antagonist of the universe 6 arc and Frieza was the main antagonist of the RoF arc but Beerus who was the main antagonist of the battle of gods arc is stronger than both of them. So it actually wouldn't be a first.


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## Juub (Nov 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Zamasu was just toying with them. And this is KKx10 SSB Goku after a lot of zenkais so it's more powerful than when Goku used it against Hit in the U6 arc.


He looked mad as hell for someone who was merely toying with them.





> Hit was the main antagonist of the universe 6 arc and Frieza was the main antagonist of the RoF arc but Beerus who was the main antagonist of the battle of gods arc is stronger than both of them. So it actually wouldn't be a first.


Yes but Beerus stuck around and is there for a specific purpose. With all the power-creep that's been happening in Super, I really doubt the next main villain will be weaker than Zamasu. Especially when you consider Future Trunks beat him. I'd be very surprised if by the end of the next arc, Goku and Vegeta aren't comfortably above Futre Trunks with the Genki-Dama power up.

Still it remains to be seen. We'll see what Hit can actually do at full power with his full arsenal.


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## Montanz (Nov 24, 2016)

Technically Zamasu's body is the universe, if you can destroy it you could kill him.

which is pretty hard tbh given Gary Strunks didn't do shit to him despite being comparable to his corporeal form whose power "expanded to no end" in relation to Black who was >SSB Vegeta who is universal.


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## Gordo solos (Nov 24, 2016)

Black may or may not have been stronger than Vegeta after his final Zenkai

Before that, Veggie handed him his ass


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 24, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> In DBZ, more power = more speed. This is almost always the case, except for special transformations or power-ups that are stated to only increase strength.
> 
> It doesn't matter if he was fighting against Vegeta at one time and only flying in space another time when he did his speed feat, he used more of his power+speed against Vegeta than he had used in years.
> 
> How does Beerus training with Vegeta make Vegeta not able to scale to a suppressed Beerus? how does that make any sense?


Saying that he didn't fight someone that strong for a long time is not correlated to the fact that one time he used his speed to reach a place in a completely different situation



Ayy lmao said:


> Also what part of Zamasu not having a physical body do you not understand? What more proof do you need of him being incorporeal? His body does not exist, he is by definition non-corporeal. If the Anti spiral and TTGL haven't shown that they can harm non-corporeal beings, then they can't do jack to Zamasu. Zamasu doesn't have to show he's immune to their hax, they have to show that their hax work on someone non-corporeal.


Quite different. It's body is the universe itself, you destroy that and you can destroy him as we saw. Impossible for someone below universal power but guess what, the TTGL have enough power



xenos5 said:


> All the problems he had with the calc would drastically change the result.


The problems he have for the calc is if the drills were physical, that a black hole was formed, the timeframe of the start and the fragmentation. That's a lot yeah, but I didn't used none of these things. I used the calc only for all the size. their energy is proved to be far greater than Zamasu&co even by the TTGL



xenos5 said:


> Conceding the energy was more powerful than Hit's (who was only listed at multi-galaxy level+ at the time and not universe level+, whereas he is now universe level+) is not the same as conceding it's more powerful than fusion Zamasu who is far above Hit.
> 
> Fusion Zamasu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hit.


That's just your opinion. Zamasu was even punched away only by goku in kayoken, when hit fought a kayoken x10. But that's doesn't matter because saying "Zamasu is >>> Hit" is quite useless when you can't put him really above him. Just like Cell/majin bu with freezer. Even because you use ">>>" but I can say that the TTGL pack bilions of time the energy for destroying only a universe with x2 mass, so lol.



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> You're using a different definition of canon. DBS is canon because it follows after the DB manga, the manga not Toei verse like GT.


Please tell me better, I know that one is a sequel when the other one is like... a remake? But the author is the same, the story and all the major point is basically the same, there are some difference with the movie but even DBS made many retcon and for what I see it's still considered canon



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> You might as well have said "I don't like it so it's not true".


Or I like to use feats and not speaking about fanfiction or power based on other series where maybe being abstract have a clear definition when in dragon ball it isn't like this. Because what are you doing is basically using general terms pick up your arguments because the series isn't enough. I can play the same game and with TTGL it's easy



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Just because Zamasu's essence in the sky interacted in some way with Goku and co's beam attacks doesn't change the fact he is non-corporeal. You are confusing it with intangibility. Incorporeal just means he has no true physical form, but their essence can still exist in a way that's actually tangible, such as being made of energy.


Already replied to this but I'll try a different way. It's not like Zamasu doesn't have a body, because with this form his body is the universe itself. It's big and all but the only thing is that if you destroy a planet with his face he won't die, I'm not claiming that.You have at least to destroy the universe or hax him out, the first it's easily possible to do for the TTGLverse


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## SSBMonado (Nov 24, 2016)

Zamasu should still be immortal, even in his eldritch form. This means if you bust the universe, you just make him ascend to the next stage again.

The fact is that Zamasu's regular-sized beam attack was strong enough to push back Goku, Vegeta and Trunks at the same time, meaning his DC is still hilariously casual universe level. 
TTGL has a massive handicap here from the start, because it's so bloody huge. Relative to the AoE of Zamasu's regular attacks, TTGL might as well be made of paper because there's no way in hell a building-sized patch of its armor will have universe level durability. If he feels fancy, Zamasu turns TTGL into universal swiss cheese, or just blows it up in one go because he's still far ahead on DC.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 24, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Saying that he didn't fight someone that strong for a long time is not correlated to the fact that one time he used his speed to reach a place in a completely different situation



Do you not understand that you can't increase your power without increasing your speed in DBZ? Beerus and no other characters in DBZ can't use 50% of their speed, without using 50% of their DC/dura/power, and vice versa. This is really simple, more power means more speed. End of discussion. The situation Beerus were in is irrelevant, in DBZ, you cannot move faster than someone without also being stronger except if you are fighting someone who has only focused on increasing their attack power. Beerus stated he used more of his power against Vegeta than he had in years, God tiers scale to casual Beerus.



Bad Wolf said:


> Quite different. It's body is the universe itself, you destroy that and you can destroy him as we saw. Impossible for someone below universal power but guess what, the TTGL have enough power



You know what happens if you destroy universe-Zamasu? The same thing that happened when Trunks destroyed his body, he will still live on, without any body, because he has none. He has no physical body,there is nothing to destroy in the first place for christ sake.


Zamasu fits the description perfectly. His true body is not the universe goddamn it, Trunks destroyed his body. He doesn't have one.  Destroying the universe won't affect him the slightest.

Zeno, a multiversal character being able to destroy Zamasu with a blast doesn't mean anyone from TTGL can do the same. Not how it works.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Toaa (Nov 24, 2016)

Zeno actually left nothing for zamasu to take over....or plot twist he is still alive....


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## Blocky (Nov 24, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Zeno actually left nothing for zamasu to take over....or plot twist he is still alive....


I doubt that he's even still alive.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 24, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Zamasu should still be immortal, even in his eldritch form. This means if you bust the universe, you just make him ascend to the next stage again.


That's not true. As far we've seen after the destruction of the universe nothing of him remained



SSBMonado said:


> The fact is that Zamasu's regular-sized beam attack was strong enough to push back Goku, Vegeta and Trunks at the same time, meaning his DC is still hilariously casual universe level.
> TTGL has a massive handicap here from the start, because it's so bloody huge. Relative to the AoE of Zamasu's regular attacks, TTGL might as well be made of paper because there's no way in hell a building-sized patch of its armor will have universe level durability. If he feels fancy, Zamasu turns TTGL into universal swiss cheese, or just blows it up in one go because he's still far ahead on DC.


The TTGL can absorb billions of times the energy of single attack that can destruce the matter of a single universe. Keep in mind that's about his power and the drill pack that energy in a single point. So the universal swiss cheese is just fanfiction because he can tank that level of attack with easy. On top of that there's the probability manipulation. All the "far ahead DC" that you guys keep mentioning is based only on your believes, the TTGL is faster and have a calc of his DC/absorbing power/durabilty that can deal with easy this type of attacks



Ayy lmao said:


> Do you not understand that you can't increase your power without increasing your speed in DBZ? Beerus and no other characters in DBZ can't use 50% of their speed, without using 50% of their DC/dura/power, and vice versa. This is really simple, more power means more speed. End of discussion.


That means nothing, really. You claim that beerus used a long time ago 10% of his power in a fight before fighting Vegeta, but the speed calc isn't based on a fight. And on top of that, Whis can't even fight but just train him, so even if he used more power he couldn't say that he used in a fight



Ayy lmao said:


> You know what happens if you destroy universe-Zamasu? The same thing that happened when Trunks destroyed his body, he will still live on, without any body, because he has none. He has no physical body,there is nothing to destroy in the first place for christ sake.
> 
> 
> Zamasu fits the description perfectly. His true body is not the universe goddamn it, Trunks destroyed his body. He doesn't have one. Destroying the universe won't affect him the slightest.
> ...


If you destroy universe-Zamasu you kill him. That's all we saw. He doesn't have a perfect immortality, he was putted in a situation that he had his body destroyed, then he was blasted aways with the universe. You have no evidence that destroying the universe won't affect him, rather we've proof of the opposite


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## Gordo solos (Nov 24, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> That means nothing, really. You claim that beerus used a long time ago 10% of his power in a fight before fighting Vegeta, but the speed calc isn't based on a fight. And on top of that, Whis can't even fight but just train him, so even if he used more power he couldn't say that he used in a fight


I'm just skimming through this thread, but what are you trying to say here?

If Beerus said he hasn't used up to 10% of his power in a long time (or the level of power he used against Vegeta), then it's pretty obvious the speed scales. If you think Beerus was going all out with that speed feat than lmao


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## SSBMonado (Nov 24, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> That's not true. As far we've seen after the destruction of the universe nothing of him remained


Nothing was left of Zamasu because the god of gods wiped out the entire goddamn timeline



> The TTGL can absorb billions of times the energy of single attack that can destruce the matter of a single universe.


Citation needed. And even if true, since when can he absorb attacks from every direction at once?



> On top of that there's the probability manipulation.


Meaning Zamasu will be less likely to dodge something he has no need to dodge anyways. Great.



> All the "far ahead DC" that you guys keep mentioning is based only on your believes


It's the believe of everyone who has a say in the OBD. Accept it or show yourself out.



> the TTGL is faster and have a calc of his DC/absorbing power/durabilty that can deal with easy this type of attacks


You have a calc that the aforementioned people who have a say in the OBD have not accepted. In other words; you have fuck-all

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Toaa (Nov 24, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> That's not true. As far we've seen after the destruction of the universe nothing of him remained
> 
> 
> The TTGL can absorb billions of times the energy of single attack that can destruce the matter of a single universe. Keep in mind that's about his power and the drill pack that energy in a single point. So the universal swiss cheese is just fanfiction because he can tank that level of attack with easy. On top of that there's the probability manipulation. All the "far ahead DC" that you guys keep mentioning is based only on your believes, the TTGL is faster and have a calc of his DC/absorbing power/durabilty that can deal with easy this type of attacks
> ...


Zeno destroyed everything not just the universe


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## Gordo solos (Nov 24, 2016)

Love how he brought up STTGL and claimed that shit was canon....


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 24, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> That means nothing, really. You claim that beerus used a long time ago 10% of his power in a fight before fighting Vegeta, but the speed calc isn't based on a fight. And on top of that, Whis can't even fight but just train him, so even if he used more power he couldn't say that he used in a fight



No I claim Beerus used LESS than 10% of his power before fighting Vegeta. Ok, it's clear to me now that you are trolling at this point, since you ignore everything that I say and repeat yourself. Whis has nothing to do with this at all, and Whis can fight, he just chooses not to. Why are you bringing him up? WHat does he have to do with anything?




Bad Wolf said:


> If you destroy universe-Zamasu you kill him. That's all we saw. He doesn't have a perfect immortality, he was putted in a situation that he had his body destroyed, then he was blasted aways with the universe. You have no evidence that destroying the universe won't affect him, rather we've proof of the opposite



He has no *true *goddamn body, why won't you get it through your thick skull?  After Trunks destroyed his body and before he became the universe where was he? Where was his body right before he decided to become the universe? Are you even trying at this point?

We saw Zeno destroy 12 universe to kill Zamasu, so? If you wanna play that game, then I guess you have to destroy 12 universes to kill Zamasu, because that's what Zeno. No one in TTGL can do that, so Zamasu wins. You have no evidence that they can destroy 12 universes, or that you need to destroy less than 12 universes to defeat Zamasu. If so, why did Zeno do it?


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## Toaa (Nov 24, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Love how he brought up STTGL and claimed that shit was canon....


Thirsty af


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 24, 2016)

This does raise a curious question. What the Hell was up with Zamasu after his body was destroyed, but before he took over the world? Was he just watching, quietly, as some sort of incorporeal force?

Also, are we going to assume that Goku existing in _"no space"_ was not something to be taken seriously, as it was just a case of plot convince, because Zamasu sure as in Hell wasn't able to do it. And how the Hell did Goku and Vegeta survive the time travel trip...*outside* the time machine? More plot errors, like them crashing after hitching a ride on Whis and nothing really happening to Goku or Beerus?


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## xenos5 (Nov 24, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Also, are we going to assume that Goku existing in _"no space"_ was not something to be taken seriously, as it was just a case of plot convince, because Zamasu sure as in Hell wasn't able to do it.



Regardless of whether or not Goku surviving in the spaceless void where the future timeline used to be is a plot convenience that void isn't what killed Zamasu. Omni King's attack destroyed Zamasu and the timeline along with him. We don't know if that version of Zamasu could survive in a spaceless void. 



Perpetrator Rex said:


> And how the Hell did Goku and Vegeta survive the time travel trip...*outside* the time machine?



Does time travel exert universe level+ force? If not it makes perfect sense for Goku and Vegeta to survive it considering the power they have even in base with god ki. 



Perpetrator Rex said:


> More plot errors, like them crashing after hitching a ride on Whis and nothing really happening to Goku or Beerus?



The ground would do nothing to hurt characters with durability on the level of Beerus and Goku even if they're sent into it at speeds faster than they can go on their own.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 24, 2016)

So, what Zeno did isn't really an action related to raw power, it was like some erasure hax? It seems to be that way.

I just noticed they all made sure to cram themselves into that time machine every time they went to the future and back, then suddenly they didn't care anymore.

Given the fact that Goku can breathe while tagging along with Whis, I just assumed Whis was moving at some kind of warp-hyperspace speed and that it would actually be quite matter annihilating to suddenly fall out of hyperspace.


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## xenos5 (Nov 25, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> So, what Zeno did isn't really an action related to raw power, it was like some erasure hax? It seems to be that way.



possibly. It could also be pure destructive power in combination with space-time erasure.



Perpetrator Rex said:


> I just noticed they all made sure to cram themselves into that time machine every time they went to the future and back, then suddenly they didn't care anymore.



It's not that they didn't care anymore. It's that they didn't have enough time left. They probably preferred being inside the time machine as they wouldn't want to risk falling off into a completely unknown point in time and space.



Perpetrator Rex said:


> Given the fact that Goku can breathe while tagging along with Whis, I just assumed Whis was moving at some kind of warp-hyperspace speed and that it would actually be quite matter annihilating to suddenly fall out of hyperspace.



Eh. It seemed more to me like it was just Whis's ki surrounding them that allowed Goku to breath, or a function of Whis's staff.


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## Flashlight237 (Nov 25, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Zamasu should still be immortal, even in his eldritch form. This means if you bust the universe, you just make him ascend to the next stage again.


Ehh... It was stated that Zeno cannot be defeated no matter who it is, which would extend to Super Shenron and the yet-to-be-seen Zarama. Wish or no wish, Zamasu would die at the destruction of an entire world by Zeno. And we all know that the wish-granting dragons are limited to either certain rules (ex. Shenron can only resurrect those who died within a year; Porunga can only revive those who didn't die of natural causes) or the dragon's power, as Shenron stated that he cannot send Nappa and Vegeta away due to both of them being far above Shenron's power. Shenron is a very wise character, so Shenron is a character whose statements you should take note of.

What I'm trying to get at here is, should anything overpower Super Shenron and thus Zamasu's wish for immortality, Zamasu's gonna die. And with STTGL and Super Granzeboma in the picture... Well, look at how large their drills are. I put the TTGL wiki's approximations into account (based on STTGL's base size according to *the TTGL official guide book from GAINAX*) and, well, here's the area of just one of the two drills.: 30.8 decillion cubic light years, or 2.6079*10^82 cubic meters. That's the equivalent of over 73.1 observable universes and 30.9 lower-bound universes.

Now, I don't know how large a DBZ universe is, but I doubt they're any larger than TTGL's universe.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 25, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> I'm just skimming through this thread, but what are you trying to say here?
> 
> If Beerus said he hasn't used up to 10% of his power in a long time (or the level of power he used against Vegeta), then it's pretty obvious the speed scales. If you think Beerus was going all out with that speed feat than lmao


First of all, looking at the calc we're speaking

I don't even know why are we speaking about beerus, I forgot that we weren't speaking about the speed calc for reaching the meat with the timeframe. This feats in particular should even be more impossible to apply to Zamasu and others. If you guys are speaking about other feats ok, at least post here so we can continue to discuss about beerus power and it



SSBMonado said:


> Nothing was left of Zamasu because the god of gods wiped out the entire goddamn timeline


I saw these comments and I really don't think so. Nothing suggested that this happened at all. Even because Zeno destroyed the universe a few second after seeing how everything was corrupted, if Zamasu corrupted even other universes it would even reach his place and he would have destroyed everything from here. Really, we know that one time he destroyed some universe but we don't know why so it's pointless to apply the same logic here.



SSBMonado said:


> Citation needed. And even if true, since when can he absorb attacks from every direction at once?


Already posted, read what we've already wrote, I don't want to say the same stuff to every new writer. A weaker version of the TTGL can even intercept many many enemy that tries to attack him from "random time warping" or something like that. And if we want to speak about feats, becoming the universe won't give to zamasu infinite energy or stuff, he never showed to attack something so big using all his powers. And again, that level of DC won't be enough



SSBMonado said:


> Meaning Zamasu will be less likely to dodge something he has no need to dodge anyways. Great.


implying that Zamasu is in someway more durable or other



SSBMonado said:


> It's the believe of everyone who has a say in the OBD. Accept it or show yourself out.


LOL. It's the believe of you Dragon ball wanking team. You even tried last time with Hit and it didn't end well. Even if we say that zamasu is stronger than hit you can't put a number on hit or other stuff and it was already established in that thread that Hit DC wasn't nothing impressive. Because you guys keep saying that someone who can maybe destroy a mass of the universe x2 is comparable to something at destroying 4 quadrillion times the mass-energy of the observable universe.



SSBMonado said:


> You have a calc that the aforementioned people who have a say in the OBD have not accepted. In other words; you have fuck-all


You guys can't even read what was questioned. Lol, and that part of the calc isn't even necessary



Gordo solos said:


> Love how he brought up STTGL and claimed that shit was canon....


This doesn't say much to me. Really, I read many times it isn't canon, ok, why is that? What we need to consider something canon change by series to series, with dragon ball we consider canon super even if it's more canon to the anime than the manga, with pokemon we consider everything canon and go on. STTGL is in the movie producted by the same people who did the original series.



Ayy lmao said:


> He has no *true *goddamn body, why won't you get it through your thick skull? After Trunks destroyed his body and before he became the universe where was he? Where was his body right before he decided to become the universe? Are you even trying at this point?


We don't need to know where was his body, we can even say that he was in the air or bullshit like that, what we know is that what just by destroying the universe you can kill him



Ayy lmao said:


> We saw Zeno destroy 12 universe to kill Zamasu, so? If you wanna play that game, then I guess you have to destroy 12 universes to kill Zamasu, because that's what Zeno. No one in TTGL can do that, so Zamasu wins. You have no evidence that they can destroy 12 universes, or that you need to destroy less than 12 universes to defeat Zamasu. If so, why did Zeno do it?


Lol. We never saw the destruction of 12 universe, Zamasu doesn't have anything to do with more than a universe, just now you're trying to claim that he is multiversal. Zeno didn't do it so I don't need to explain, but really? that is in someway meaningful when the little god threat everything and everyone is afraid that he could destroy the universe for even little things?

For now you guys have claimed: zamasu is immune to almost any possible hax, is multiversal, have bigger DC/durability/speed/all, can evolve always in something better, can't be killed...

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## SSBMonado (Nov 25, 2016)

Flashlight237 said:


> Ehh... It was stated that Zeno cannot be defeated no matter who it is, which would extend to Super Shenron and the yet-to-be-seen Zarama. Wish or no wish, Zamasu would die at the destruction of an entire world by Zeno.


You seem to have misunderstood. I'm saying if TTGL were to bust the universe, it wouldn't kill Zamasu. 
Zeno obviously did manage to kill Zamasu, but he'd completely fodderize TTGL as well so that isn't saying much. 



Bad Wolf said:


> I saw these comments and I really don't think so. Nothing suggested that this happened at all. Even because Zeno destroyed the universe a few second after seeing how everything was corrupted, if Zamasu corrupted even other universes it would even reach his place and he would have destroyed everything from here. Really, we know that one time he destroyed some universe but we don't know why so it's pointless to apply the same logic here.


After the destruction of Zamasu, Zeno was floating around in a white void. This confirms that he destroyed the entire timeline. 



> Already posted, read what we've already wrote, I don't want to say the same stuff to every new writer. A weaker version of the TTGL can even intercept many many enemy that tries to attack him from "random time warping" or something like that. And if we want to speak about feats, becoming the universe won't give to zamasu infinite energy or stuff, he never showed to attack something so big using all his powers. And again, that level of DC won't be enough


You mean that calc that didn't get accepted? If that is all then Zamasu is still far ahead on DC.



> implying that Zamasu is in someway more durable or other


In human form, he's hilariously more durable than anything TTGL has fought, and in eldritch form he is flat out intangible



> LOL. It's the believe of you Dragon ball wanking team. You even tried last time with Hit and it didn't end well. Even if we say that zamasu is stronger than hit you can't put a number on hit or other stuff and it was already established in that thread that Hit DC wasn't nothing impressive. Because you guys keep saying that someone who can maybe destroy a mass of the universe x2 is comparable to something at destroying 4 quadrillion times the mass-energy of the observable universe.


Do you seriously believe that continuously referring to rejected calcs and shit-talking everyone who points out your fallacies is gonna get you somewhere?


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 25, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> You seem to have misunderstood. I'm saying if TTGL were to bust the universe, it wouldn't kill Zamasu.


And the TTGL wouldn't have problem doing that


SSBMonado said:


> After the destruction of Zamasu, Zeno was floating around in a white void. This confirms that he destroyed the entire timeline.


How could that confirm it? He could have just destroyed the universe. There's no hint that he moved after that



SSBMonado said:


> You mean that calc that didn't get accepted? If that is all then Zamasu is still far ahead on DC.


Lol. 
And for the previous calc it wasn't accepted some stuff. All the scaling was accepted, not like any DBS calc that are quite theory and aren't even putted in the accepted calc threads



SSBMonado said:


> In human form, he's hilariously more durable than anything TTGL has fought, and in eldritch form he is flat out intangible


How can it be if in DBS you basically have 2 tier, Zeno tier which is way above Zamasu and Beerus&half cast tier with their universex2 mass destruction feat. Even destroying the galatic lazengan is way way above any feats of the beerus tier
again, the same

You guys keep saying "it's stronger/bla bla" but you haven't shown any calc, any screen that confirm that. You're just blabbering about your opinion and as far as I see I don't care about these wanking opinions



SSBMonado said:


> Do you seriously believe that continuously referring to rejected calcs and shit-talking everyone who points out your fallacies is gonna get you somewhere?


Still waiting you guys to have some debate. Really, for now I only saw speed calc that put Zamasu & others below even the lowest speed calc of the TTGL. The only things that get rejected here is the big wanking that gets expanding every time there's a DB thread. Not to mention the DB calc, lol, you even try to speak as you know something


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## SSBMonado (Nov 25, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> How could that confirm it? He could have just destroyed the universe. There's no hint that he moved after that


We know what the space between the DB universes looks like and that wasn't it. 



> Lol.
> And for the previous calc it wasn't accepted some stuff. All the scaling was accepted, not like any DBS calc that are quite theory and aren't even putted in the accepted calc threads


The comments point out all that needs to be said. 
TTGL and all the mechs it contained at this point were made entirely of spiral energy. Therefore, assuming the Lazengan was made of steel is extremely shaky, especially given that Lordgenome basically magic'd both it and himself into existence moments earlier. Hell, when Simon and Nia questioned how Lordgenome could do any of that, his answer amounted to "physics don't apply here"



> How can it be if in DBS you basically have 2 tier, Zeno tier which is way above Zamasu and Beerus&half cast tier with their universex2 mass destruction feat. Even destroying the galatic lazengan is way way above any feats of the beerus tier
> again, the same
> 
> You guys keep saying "it's stronger/bla bla" but you haven't shown any calc, any screen that confirm that. You're just blabbering about your opinion and as far as I see I don't care about these wanking opinions


Amount of energy needed to bust a universe in DB: ~10 times the amount needed to bust the real universe
Why: a DB universe contains both the observable universe and the afterlife, which makes it twice as large as the real one
Feat: BoG arc Goku, in base form, half dead and exhausted, managed to punch out a Judgment ball that would have destroyed the universe. 
The current scale goes: Eldritch Zamasu > Zamasu > current SSB Goku > U6 arc SSB Goku > BoG Goku
Meaning eldritch Zamasu is several tiers above the version of Goku who performed the feat.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 25, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> We know what the space between the DB universes looks like and that wasn't it.


And so? Zeno destroyed the universe, that's how it look like a universe being destroyed in dragon ball. More of that, the space between the DB universes is empty, it would been like that if all, but in this case you can't say that' really empty



SSBMonado said:


> TTGL and all the mechs it contained at this point were made entirely of spiral energy. Therefore, assuming the Lazengan was made of steel is extremely shaky, especially given that Lordgenome basically magic'd both it and himself into existence moments earlier. Hell, when Simon and Nia questioned how Lordgenome could do any of that, his answer amounted to "physics don't apply here"


 already replied to that and no one said that he was wrong. On top of that Chaos even questioned what are you saying. And, specifically, "his answer amounted to "physics don't apply here"" Lord Genome never said stuff like that, if you want to claim that you have to post the screen, but you want find it anywhere because it's false. Lazengan was made of metal as any other Mecha in the series, in the ending he created that (as they do with Drills and many other stuff) and was never stated to be of a different material



SSBMonado said:


> Amount of energy needed to bust a universe in DB: ~10 times the amount needed to bust the real universe
> Why: a DB universe contains both the observable universe and the afterlife, which makes it twice as large as the real one
> Feat: BoG arc Goku, in base form, half dead and exhausted, managed to punch out a Judgment ball that would have destroyed the universe.
> The current scale goes: Eldritch Zamasu > Zamasu > current SSB Goku > U6 arc SSB Goku > BoG Goku
> Meaning eldritch Zamasu is several tiers above the version of Goku who performed the feat.


I want a calc, not your worlds. And keep in mind that in dragon ball "universe" doesn't include the Cosmos

Being ">" above someone doesn't mean a damn here, Cell and Bu are way stronger than Freezer but for the stats of the battledome they are the same because they haven't got better feats. And even busting cosmos+universe they would still be way way below the DC of the TTGL


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## SSBMonado (Nov 25, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> And so? Zeno destroyed the universe, that's how it look like a universe being destroyed in dragon ball. More of that, the space between the DB universes is empty, it would been like that if all, but in this case you can't say that' really empty


If Zeno busted only u7, it would be black like the space between universes
If Zeno busted all12 universes, it would be black like the space between universes
Since instead we see a white void, neither of the above cases can be true. Between that and the hype, it's clear that Zeno erased the whole multiverse. 



> already replied to that and no one said that he was wrong. On top of that Chaos even questioned what are you saying. And, specifically, "his answer amounted to "physics don't apply here"" Lord Genome never said stuff like that, if you want to claim that you have to post the screen, but you want find it anywhere because it's false. Lazengan was made of metal as any other Mecha in the series, in the ending he created that (as they do with Drills and many other stuff) and was never stated to be of a different material


Reply he did ... over 2 fucking years ago and still it hasn't been accepted. You can disagree with the reasons why the calc didn't get accepted if you wish, but the fact is that those are the reasons the calc didn't get accepted. 



> I want a calc, not your worlds.


A calc for what? This is basic ass power scaling with no math involved at all. It's the type of A>B>C scaling that Dragon Ball is practically the inventor of.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Toaa (Nov 25, 2016)

....ow you are serious right?you actuslly think zeno busted a single universe?


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## Random Passerby (Nov 25, 2016)

You know that GM already answered whether Zeno busted the multiverse or not in the first page right?


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## Montanz (Nov 25, 2016)

Zeno busted (actually "erased") the "world" in this context it is the multiverse, however wether or not this was necessary to completely destroy Zamasu is up for debate.


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## Blocky (Nov 25, 2016)

There was nothing in future trunks's timeline otherwise trunks could had move to a another universe in his timeline then.


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## Random Passerby (Nov 25, 2016)

I don't think it was necessary for Zeno to destroy the entire multiverse, but he did it just because he can I guess and Whis said Zeno already destroyed 6 universes just because he's in a bad mood

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Montanz (Nov 25, 2016)

While true, it also a fact Zamasu's immortality was granted by super shenlong whom Bills stated could be used to destroy the "world" but that's also up to debate if he was referring to one universe or all them.

But given the fact his initial appearance was enough to outshine the other two universes before it expanded in size makes it a possibility.

meh, this needs more peer review.


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## Gordo solos (Nov 25, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> This doesn't say much to me. Really, I read many times it isn't canon, ok, why is that? What we need to consider something canon change by series to series, with dragon ball we consider canon super even if it's more canon to the anime than the manga, with pokemon we consider everything canon and go on. STTGL is in the movie producted by the same people who did the original series.


Uh, what? You do know why Super is canon right? Toriyama wrote the script for it and Toei/Toyatoro use those ideas in the anime and manga. Toriyama flat out said in an interview that he wrote the scripts for the series and that it's a continuation of _his _story

The Gurren Lagann movies are non-canon because they're just different retellings of the show. So nah, you're gonna need more concrete proof then that. These movies aren't overriding the original series

Reactions: Like 1


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## Descendant Of Vagabonds (Nov 25, 2016)

Didn't trunk literally have to pack up and move to a different timeline cause his was no more?


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## Adamant soul (Nov 25, 2016)

Descendant Of Vagabonds said:


> Didn't trunk literally have to pack up and move to a different timeline cause his was no more?



Indeed he did.


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## Blocky (Nov 25, 2016)

If he was affecting the other timeline then he would able to affect other universes as well.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Montanz (Nov 25, 2016)

Also wouldn't Beerus clash against Goku require gorillions of times more energy than the mass energy of the universe as well considering energy loss and distance.
but that assumes only space is being bust, if we have them at universal+ the energy requirement is that * infinite as destroying time can't be measured in Joules.


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## SSBMonado (Nov 25, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Also wouldn't Beerus clash against Goku require gorillions of times more energy than the mass energy of the universe as well considering energy loss and distance.
> but that assumes only space is being bust, if we have them at universal+ the energy requirement is that * infinite as destroying time can't be measured in Joules.


That's true. The vast majority of the energy of the fist clashes would have had to have ricocheted back up Goku's and Beerus' arms. The energy that spilled out to form the shockwaves due to their fists not colliding at the perfect angle must have been a tiny fraction of their total output.

The only problem is that none of this can be quantified.


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## Montanz (Nov 25, 2016)

Am pretty sure it can be lowlballed though, using the kaioshin planet GBE and the diameter of the universe at mimimum for distance, given they are on the opposite ends of it.
the final explosion that was about to engulf the universe would have released that much hadn't beerus nullified it.


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 26, 2016)

So Zamasu wins right?


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 26, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> So Zamasu wins right?


Yes he does


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 27, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> If Zeno busted only u7, it would be black like the space between universes


Zeno busted a universe, they then went back here where zeno started blasting everything, they never showed far away but only in the surrounding, that's what you see if someone in DBZ bust a universe (that was never showed) why would everything need to be like that or black? 



SSBMonado said:


> Reply he did ... over 2 fucking years ago and still it hasn't been accepted. You can disagree with the reasons why the calc didn't get accepted if you wish, but the fact is that those are the reasons the calc didn't get accepted.


Well, TTGL re did the calc (with a similar results) and that's accepted, deal with it



SSBMonado said:


> A calc for what? This is basic ass power scaling with no math involved at all. It's the type of A>B>C scaling that Dragon Ball is practically the inventor of.


You use false assumption (as the universe that contains Hell/afterlife even if in the map are separated things) and even say that normal Zamasu is stronger than any version of goku when he never showed stuff like that. Anyway it's useless, they tops at what's their best showing in the series



Blocky said:


> There was nothing in future trunks's timeline otherwise trunks could had move to a another universe in his timeline then.


"nothing" you can't say, they showed only nearby Zeno, unless you guys claim that for some strange reason now their sight is improved so well to see universal distance that doesn't show much. Going to a different universe why would be the same? It's a totally different place, they could even stay in the universe with goku but they went in a timeline similar to their in their same universe.



Montanz said:


> Also wouldn't Beerus clash against Goku require gorillions of times more energy than the mass energy of the universe as well considering energy loss and distance.


Meaningless words if there isn't a calc. But I think it's all useless, you don't even have a visual proof of what destruction would be



Gordo solos said:


> Uh, what? You do know why Super is canon right? Toriyama wrote the script for it and Toei/Toyatoro use those ideas in the anime and manga. Toriyama flat out said in an interview that he wrote the scripts for the series and that it's a continuation of _his _story
> 
> The Gurren Lagann movies are non-canon because they're just different retellings of the show. So nah, you're gonna need more concrete proof then that. These movies aren't overriding the original series


So basically you're saying that you just need the official source to be considered canon? Because that's checked.
If we want to speak about of coherent the things are to the original work well even in dragon bal super we have some characters from fillers only showed in the anime and never in the original manga, for TTGL obviously the STTGL wasn't in the original series so that alone is enough but that's the same for the 2 series. But I think that's only a confusion on the definition of canon, for example in pokemon everything is canon and, maybe I'm wrong, it doesn't even need to have same original writer or director (for manga, games, anime...).
So anyway the STTGL isn't in the original series, that's sure, it would be like... a different "timeline/story" with the same story? Anyway is difficult to say that it isn't canon when it's made by the same people, it could even be considered a retcon for some parts if you like it better



Ayy lmao said:


> So Zamasu wins right?


It doesn't have any hax, it's slower and with less DC. He can be killed by destroying the universe... No, Zamasu lose


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## Toaa (Nov 27, 2016)

This guy stubborn af dont reply to him.He is saying zeno deetroyed a single universe


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 27, 2016)

Toaa said:


> This guy stubborn af dont reply to him.He is saying zeno deetroyed a single universe


I know, all he does is ignore every argument and repeat himself. He is no idea of what he's talking about. Can somebody add this is a win in Zamasu's OBD profile?


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## Blocky (Nov 27, 2016)

I feel we need more people to choose if zamasu can win or not


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## Toaa (Nov 27, 2016)

Blocky said:


> I feel we need more people to choose if zamasu can win or not


When are they expecting to participate?


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## Kurou (Nov 27, 2016)

Not reading through the text vomit


What are the arguments for zamasu and what are they for ttgl?


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## Imagine (Nov 27, 2016)

It's not even about the fight, just if DB characters are multiversal. Something about Zamasu being all of the universes in the future and him being multiversal because if it

Ain't nobody got time for that  

TTGL loses though

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gordo solos (Nov 27, 2016)

Don't bother arguing with him, at this point it's just salt

Reactions: Like 3


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## Toaa (Nov 27, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Don't bother arguing with him, at this point it's just salt


Bad wolf?


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 27, 2016)

Kurou said:


> Not reading through the text vomit
> 
> 
> What are the arguments for zamasu and what are they for ttgl?



Arguments for Zamasu by most in this thread:
He Is non-corporeal thus no one in TTGL can harm him, both are universal + so Zamasu should be able to harm them and eventually be able to solo.  

Arguments for TTGL by Bad Wolf: Zamasu is not non-corporeal thus TTGL and Anti spirals hax+ DC can kill him, you can defeat Zamasu by destroying just 1 universe which is what Zeno did, Beerus' casual speed feat  cannot be scaled to Zamasu, and other characters weaker than Beerus, because he does not understand how more power equals more speed in DBZ. 
Uses a not-accepted calc to prove that Anti Spirals and TTGL are faster than Zamasu , thinks the non-canon movie is canon.


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## Imagine (Nov 27, 2016)

TTGL (the mech) isn't on par with Zamasu, it's multi-galaxy to possibly universe+. I don't think there ever was a consensus reached on it.

STTGL is universal though. (non-canon)

Maybe some of the EOS stuff in the canon series can be quantified but I doubt anyone wants to deal with the headache. Your average DB god tier is above anything in TTGL.

Tfw movie Simon can go head to head with DB god tiers without a mecha

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Toaa (Nov 27, 2016)

Imagine said:


> TTGL (the mech) isn't on par with Zamasu, it's multi-galaxy to possibly universe+. I don't think there ever was a consensus reached on it.
> 
> STTGL is universal though. (non-canon)
> 
> ...


He can win against zeno?he is multiversal?


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## Katsuargi (Nov 27, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Am pretty sure it can be lowlballed though, using the kaioshin planet GBE and the diameter of the universe at mimimum for distance, given they are on the opposite ends of it.
> the final explosion that was about to engulf the universe would have released that much hadn't beerus nullified it.



One of my various calcs did that.


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## Imagine (Nov 27, 2016)

Toaa said:


> He can win against zeno?he is multiversal?


No one in TTGL can beat Zeno. Movie STTGL and Anti Spiral can fight other god tiers in DB but that's about it.


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## Toaa (Nov 27, 2016)

Imagine said:


> No one in TTGL can beat Zeno. Movie STTGL and Anti Spiral can fight other god tiers in DB but that's about it.


Oh you mean beerus and champa and the angels prob bar daishinkan


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## Imagine (Nov 27, 2016)

Wut


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## Toaa (Nov 27, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Wut


....what did i not manage to get across?I meant if they can take on beerus and champa


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## SSBMonado (Nov 27, 2016)

I'd argue STTGL couldn't even get past non-fused future Zamasu, much less the higher god tiers. As I said earlier, what does STTGL actually add other than making it a couple thousand times easier to hit? If all else fails, Zamasu could just kaikai into it and kill the pilots.


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## Imagine (Nov 27, 2016)

Well it doesn't matter because any form of Goku Black/Zamasu is universe+ and to a higher degree then STTGL is. It's just that STTGL can fight god tiers because it is universe+ but can't actually win.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blocky (Nov 27, 2016)

So Zamasu wins then.

Welp case closed then.


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## saint rider 890 (Nov 27, 2016)

Blocky said:


> So Zamasu wins then.
> 
> Welp case closed then.



Can someone add this match for Supreme God Zamasu win list ?


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 28, 2016)

Well, it's pretty much funny that people try to deny what I'm saying without having an arguments, being a group of DB supporter don't give you any reason.
It's pretty easy, the calc put the DC and speed of TTGL above the DBS side

vs
~10 times the amount needed to bust the real universe


vs

(which is for whis, so I don't think you can scale to Zamasu, because the first is even faster than beerus)


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## Reznor (Nov 28, 2016)

I might side with TTGL here.

Zamasu had low firepower and his spread rate wasn't _super_ fast, being as Future Zeno hadn't encountered Zamasu at his home yet, he encountered Zamasu once Goku summoned him.

TTGL had a lot of hax going for it. Like, even the Cho Ginga Gurren Lagann had dimensional hax and the ability to fire missiles into the past and future or something.


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## Toaa (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> I might side with TTGL here.
> 
> Zamasu had low firepower and his spread rate wasn't _super_ fast, being as Future Zeno hadn't encountered Zamasu at his home yet, he encountered Zamasu once Goku summoned him.
> 
> TTGL had a lot of hax going for it. Like, even the Cho Ginga Gurren Lagann had dimensional hax and the ability to fire missiles into the past and future or something.


That zamasu has merged with the timeline so affecting time would not do much 

Also what low firepower?a signle of his blasrs overwhelmed the combined might of vegeta goku and trunks all of who are universal


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## Cooler (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> I might side with TTGL here.
> 
> Zamasu had low firepower and his spread rate wasn't _super_ fast, being as Future Zeno hadn't encountered Zamasu at his home yet, he encountered Zamasu once Goku summoned him.
> 
> TTGL had a lot of hax going for it. Like, even the Cho Ginga Gurren Lagann had dimensional hax and the ability to fire missiles into the past and future or something.



Zeno's home is really far away - days of travel for Whis.

As far as firepower goes, Zamasu should still be some degree of universe level. What hax is there that will put down someone that is immortal and merged with the universe?


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## SSBMonado (Nov 28, 2016)

If Zamasu's immortality wish stopped him from getting soul-fucked by Beerus, then it should also stop TTGL's time shenanigans. 

And as Toaa said, Zamasu overpowering Goku, Vegeta and Trunks means he is still "very very very casual universe+" level

Plus, couldn't Zamasu kaikai into TTGL and take it over?


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## Toaa (Nov 28, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> If Zamasu's immortality wish stopped him from getting soul-fucked by Beerus, then it should also stop TTGL's time shenanigans.
> 
> And as Toaa said, Zamasu overpowering Goku, Vegeta and Trunks means he is still "very very very casual universe+" level
> 
> Plus, couldn't Zamasu kaikai into TTGL and take it over?


Kidding that fucker took the combined attack of the 3 of them at the same time and he wasnt even phased and you need to destroy the whole universe and by then he would have already go to other universes and timelines


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## Reznor (Nov 28, 2016)

Yeah, Zamasu should be sufficiently well defended against space-time hax.
And TTGL doesn't have an answer for Immorality.



> Plus, couldn't Zamasu kaikai into TTGL and take it over?


 It's likely that's not possible, given that the Anti-Spiral didn't do so against them again, unlike against Arc Gurren.

Plus, the precision necessary for that should need some feats and everyone on board has to have MFTL reactions. IIRC, even Attenborough was talking like he could precog or probablity alter quickly for his attacks. Whether that is directly their own spiral power or a feature of TTGL granting them, it should still apply.



> Also what low firepower?a signle of his blasrs overwhelmed the combined might of vegeta goku and trunks all of who are universal


 Well, it's low by Zamasu Standards. Supreme God Zamasu's attacks were way more powerful than Mist Zamasu's attacks.
But yeah, you have a point that the Anti-Spiral's Big Bang wouldn't have enough firepower to put down Zamasu but vice versa is true.


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## Reznor (Nov 28, 2016)

Yeah, it seems like Zamasu takes this.

How does their speeds compare?


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> It's likely that's not possible, given that the Anti-Spiral didn't do so against them again, unlike against Arc Gurren.
> 
> Plus, the precision necessary for that should need some feats and everyone on board has to have MFTL reactions. IIRC, even Attenborough was talking like he could precog or probablity alter quickly for his attacks. Whether that is directly their own spiral power or a feature of TTGL granting them, it should still apply.


Why wouldn't Zamasu be able to teleport inside TTGL? It's so huge that it's practically impossible to miss+ Zamasu expanding inside TTGL should destroy it from the inside out.


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## Reznor (Nov 28, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Why wouldn't Zamasu be able to teleport inside TTGL? It's so huge that it's practically impossible to miss+ Zamasu expanding inside TTGL should destroy it from the inside out.


I meant being able to teleport directly to a pilot.

I'm not sure that expansion strategy would work. The expansion didn't seem to exert physical pressure and it's not like that's a form he can assume on command.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 28, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Why wouldn't Zamasu be able to teleport inside TTGL? It's so huge that it's practically impossible to miss+ Zamasu expanding inside TTGL should destroy it from the inside out.



I think Reznor was talking about the precision it would take to pin point the exact location. But actually Kais seem to have pretty decent cosmic awareness/clairvoyance. I remember the elder Kai amusing himself by looking at a small insect a couple of galaxies away in the first episodes of Super.


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> I'm not sure that expansion strategy would work. The expansion didn't seem to exert physical pressure and it's not like that's a form he can assume on command



If this thread is soul Zamasu, then he can expand inside TTGL, and fire blast from every direction inside it. Eventually, he will hit the pilot or destroy TTGL.



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> I remember the elder Kai looking at a small insect a couple of galaxies away in the first episodes of Super.


I believe he did either that or he was looking at girls, regardless, he did see something inside the earth using only his eyes from billions of light years away.


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## Reznor (Nov 28, 2016)

Yeah, they have great awareness there and - if no hax prevented it and TTGL wasn't moving, I wouldn't even question it.

But the fact that slight movements are lightyears and the fact that Anti-Spiral didn't do it again makes me question the "teleport onto the bridge" plan.


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## saint rider 890 (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Yeah, it seems like Zamasu takes this.
> 
> How does their speeds compare?





62 Quadrillion C - 125 Quadrillion C - 208 Quadrillion C



72 Quadrilions


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 28, 2016)

Zamasu does not scale to vados or Champa and there is no calc in your second link


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## Toaa (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Yeah, Zamasu should be sufficiently well defended against space-time hax.
> And TTGL doesn't have an answer for Immorality.
> 
> It's likely that's not possible, given that the Anti-Spiral didn't do so against them again, unlike against Arc Gurren.
> ...


But a single beam also pushed back the three of them while even bersek fused zamasu who could trade blows with vegito wqs equal to trunks


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## Toaa (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Yeah, they have great awareness there and - if no hax prevented it and TTGL wasn't moving, I wouldn't even question it.
> 
> But the fact that slight movements are lightyears and the fact that Anti-Spiral didn't do it again makes me question the "teleport onto the bridge" plan.


But zamasu well keep taking control of more universes and keep firing beams.beams the size of houses from every corner of the universe would destroy them 


Plus the mecha needs to destroy the whole universe and goku and co couldnt even damage one


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## Reznor (Nov 28, 2016)

Hilariously, it seems like speed is probably the only real advantage that TTGL has over Zamasu.


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## Reznor (Nov 28, 2016)

Toaa said:


> But a single beam also pushed back the three of them while even bersek fused zamasu who could trade blows with vegito wqs equal to trunks


No.

Vegetto Blue > Fused Zamasu > Super Trunks

Being softened up by Vegetto and Genkidama was the only reason for Trunks standing up to SG Zamasu.


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## Toaa (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> No.
> 
> Vegetto Blue > Fused Zamasu > Super Trunks
> 
> Being softened up by Vegetto and Genkidama was the only reason for Trunks standing up to SG Zamasu.


Zamasu took a final kamehameha from vegito with all his power and retaliated so no.the energy of every beam from mist zamasu should be at leaet as strong as peak fused zamasu


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## SSBMonado (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Hilariously, it seems like speed is probably the only real advantage that TTGL has over Zamasu.


In order for humanoid Zamasu to throw a punch, his fist has to travel about a meter. 
In order for TTGL to throw a punch, its fist has to travel thousands upon thousands of lightyears. 

By that logic, wouldn't TTGL have a severe speed DISadvantage?


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## Reznor (Nov 28, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Zamasu took a final kamehameha from vegito with all his power and retaliated so no.the energy of every beam from mist zamasu should be at leaet as strong as peak fused zamasu


Fair but:

Speed: Vegetto Blue > SG Zamasu > Buffed SG Zamasu > Trunks
DC: Vegetto Blue > Buffed SG Zamasu > SG Zamasu >> Trunks
Durability: Buffed SG Zamasu > SG Zamasu >>> Vegetto Blue >>> Trunks

The time limit issue isn't relevant so scaling these things.

I don't see the logic for what the beams being indiscriminately fire everywhere from Mist Zamasu was the same tier of attacks, especially with Base Goku and Vegeta standing up to them. I shouldn't have to argue that Base Goku and Vegeta are much lower tier than Vegetto Blue, do I?


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## Reznor (Nov 28, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> In order for humanoid Zamasu to throw a punch, his fist has to travel about a meter.
> In order for TTGL to throw a punch, its fist has to travel thousands upon thousands of lightyears.
> 
> By that logic, wouldn't TTGL have a severe speed DISadvantage?


Yeah, it's likely not as agile.

But Zamasu has to fly the same distance to punch, and I don't think he can fly that distance as quick as TTGL can punch that distance. The power of the hits will do nothing to Zamasu, but Zamasu's lifting strength is much less, so he'll get pushed around from the strikes from TTGL's follow through.


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## Cooler (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Yeah, it's likely not as agile.
> 
> But Zamasu has to fly the same distance to punch, and I don't think he can fly that distance as quick as TTGL can punch that distance. The power of the hits will do nothing to Zamasu, but Zamasu's lifting strength is much less, so he'll get pushed around from the strikes from TTGL's follow through.



Depending on the starting distance this won't matter with Zamasu's teleportation.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 28, 2016)

Shouldn't the speed of DBS God tiers energy blast be in the quintillions range? When SSJG Goku and Beerus fought I remember the ki explosion reaching the end of the universe in like two seconds.


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 28, 2016)

Why would destroying the universe kill Zamasu?


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## Toaa (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Fair but:
> 
> Speed: Vegetto Blue > SG Zamasu > Buffed SG Zamasu > Trunks
> DC: Vegetto Blue > Buffed SG Zamasu > SG Zamasu >> Trunks
> ...


Yes but the 3 of them together stood up sgsinet a single beam


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## Reznor (Nov 28, 2016)

Vegetto Blue can easily overpower a combined attack from Base Goku, Vegeta and Super Trunks.


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## Toaa (Nov 28, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Vegetto Blue can easily overpower a combined attack from Base Goku, Vegeta and Super Trunks.


Sure but he can also overpower fused zamasu


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## Gordo solos (Nov 28, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Well, it's pretty much funny that people try to deny what I'm saying without having an arguments, being a group of DB supporter don't give you any reason.


Keep destroying that little credibility of yours


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## Blocky (Nov 28, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Sure but he can also overpower fused zamasu


Well, you can make a thread about that since it's likely


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## Toaa (Nov 28, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Keep destroying that little credibility of yours


He has any left?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Toaa (Nov 28, 2016)

Blocky said:


> Well, you can make a thread about that since it's likely


I mean he can but he cant put him down before he defuses


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 29, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Keep destroying that little credibility of yours


last time I argued there was Tonathan100 that was doing the same thing as you. But at least he even "argued" a bit, you can't even to that and that's pretty much pathetic.

Anyway it's nice to see other speed calc for DB but I think they are all for stronger people than Zamasu. An important thing that's not clear is in what form Zamasu start, if he isn't in the last form there isn't even any way that he could avoid the multiversal illusion.


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## Montanz (Nov 29, 2016)

uh, the first picture in the OP does just that.


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 29, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> last time I argued there was Tonathan100 that was doing the same thing as you. But at least he even "argued" a bit, you can't even to that and that's pretty much pathetic.
> 
> Anyway it's nice to see other speed calc for DB but I think they are all for stronger people than Zamasu. An important thing that's not clear is in what form Zamasu start, if he isn't in the last form there isn't even any way that he could avoid the multiversal illusion.


No is listening to you, just stop.  Go be salty somewhere else.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 29, 2016)

Montanz said:


> uh, the first picture in the OP does just that.


You would think he would at least be able to figure that out by himself.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 29, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> No is listening to you, just stop. Go be salty somewhere else.


useless post.



Montanz said:


> uh, the first picture in the OP does just that.


Some post above they were speaking about Zamasu with his normal body, I never did, I was asking for them.

And people, even if Zamasu can merge with a universe that doesn't mean he can do that with any number of universe in any moment and in every timeline. Lol. that's a degree of multiversal really high which some of you are trying to claim

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 29, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> And people, even if Zamasu can merge with a universe that doesn't mean he can do that with any number of universe in any moment and in every timeline. Lol. that's a degree of multiversal really high which some of you are trying to claim


Straw man , no one is claiming he can


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## Reznor (Nov 29, 2016)

I guess the thread's basically over now that it's just newbie squabbles.


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## saint rider 890 (Nov 29, 2016)

Reznor said:


> I guess the thread's basically over now that it's just newbie squabbles.


 Better lock this


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## Blocky (Nov 29, 2016)

But does zamasu still win?

Have we reached to a agreement yet?


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## Montanz (Nov 29, 2016)

I think Fused  Zamasu (body) clears all the way up to TTGL and becomes inconclusive against AS due to lack of information on what extent he scales to Whis/Beerus in speed, DC however is more than enough to face any of the mechs 

Incorporeal Zamasu clears the verse due to DC and speed becoming pretty much irrelevant since he is literally one with the universe he is essentially omnipresent within it.

And even if you don't take the above to be true I doubt AS would have anything to do against someone without a body given he didn't show any feats of being able to hit things like that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gordo solos (Nov 30, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> last time I argued there was Tonathan100 that was doing the same thing as you. But at least he even "argued" a bit, you can't even to that and that's pretty much pathetic.




You have no right to call people pathetic when you practically admitted your biased towards DB

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ayy lmao (Nov 30, 2016)

Montanz said:


> I think Fused Zamasu (body) clears all the way up to TTGL and becomes inconclusive against AS due to lack of information on what extent he scales to Whis/Beerus in speed, DC however is more than enough to face any of the mechs



Zamasu scales to Beerus but not Whis. He scales to Beerus because Beerus used more power fighting Vegeta and Goku than he did when he did his speed feat,  speed and power are coherent. To better understand, switch Beerus out with perfect form Cell.  Say Cell did the feat using as much of his power as he did when he fought Vegeta, then later on as he fights Goku he would say "I haven't used this much of my power ever in this form". That would Goku scales to his speed feat.

 This is the same thing with Beerus. We have no reason to believe that Beerus used more percent of his power flying in space, than when he fought God Goku and everything including his own words points to the opposite.


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## bitethedust (Nov 30, 2016)

Blocky said:


> But does zamasu still win?
> 
> Have we reached to a agreement yet?



Everyone but a self-admitted DB downplayer agrees Zamasu wins. The rest is more or less on-topic derailment because realizing someone conceded the moment they had to resort to derailment is too hard to realize, or people really get kicks out of arguing.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 30, 2016)

Zamasu wins.
Toribot would not even need to bat a finger to solo TTGL

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Montanz (Nov 30, 2016)

Problem with that is that their  feat at that point was in the high trillions-low quadrillions, Whis later went and performed a feat in the ~70 quads at least but that most certainly wasn't a casual showing like the feat they had earlier in the series.

Given that we don't have enough information on the standing of fused characters compared to gods we can't really say for sure if he gets significant scaling from it

Though you could argue he is at least >10 quads using KK multipliers given his superiority to that Goku from the previous arc but that relies on, well, multipliers.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 30, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Incorporeal Zamasu clears the verse due to DC and speed becoming pretty much irrelevant since he is literally one with the universe he is essentially omnipresent within it.



That should definitely be the case, I mean it was shown that he became the vaccum of space. Quite frankly, the only option TTGL seems to have is the dimensional illusion, but even that's questionable to work. Because even if the dimensional illusion is universe level in scope, that still wouldn't be enough since Zamasu was spreading his influence to different timelines.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Solar (Nov 30, 2016)

Omnipresence isn't a speed and doesnt even grant some level of reaction time.


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## Montanz (Nov 30, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> Omnipresence isn't a speed and doesnt even grant some level of reaction time.


Thing is that they already sit on a similar tier of reaction time, if we want to get technical, omnipresence  still gives an advantage  as the distance your attacks would need to cross is essentially next to nothing.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Reznor (Nov 30, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Thing is that they already sit on a similar tier of reaction time, if we want to get technical, omnipresence  still gives an advantage  as the distance your attacks would need to cross is essentially next to nothing.


Their attacks would also need to cross next to no distance to hit you, since you are everywhere


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## SSBMonado (Nov 30, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Their attacks would also need to cross next to no distance to hit you, since you are everywhere


Which doesn't mean a whole lot to a guy who is both incorporeal and immortal


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## Toaa (Nov 30, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Which doesn't mean a whole lot to a guy who is both incorporeal and immortal


Except if you are zeno.Then you kill him and destroy your home


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 30, 2016)

Zamasu has proven his immortality. So according to OBD standards, is there any way to kill Zamasu outside of erasing him?

Some dude on here told me, immortality is a _"no limits fallacy", _so all you need to do to is kill him with a method not present in Dragon Ball.


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## Reznor (Nov 30, 2016)

Multiversal attacks have a good case for killing him still. He's still far above Universe level.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 30, 2016)

So is that the OBD standard; a character's power that is designed to have no limits, will be given limits based on DC or range[?] of the user? Because I'm seeing people argue that multiverse busting is not enough and vise versa. Is what you're saying the consensus?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 30, 2016)

I see a lot of people getting offended. I'm literally asking the question because I don't know.

WTF is everyone so mad about? Maybe you can enlighten me in a private chat @Reznor,  since majority of the community seems shamefully adverse to informing n00bs?


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## Reznor (Nov 30, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> So is that the OBD standard; a character's power that is designed to have no limits, will be given limits based on DC or range[?] of the user? Because I'm seeing people argue that multiverse busting is not enough and vise versa. Is what you're saying the consensus?


Well, Zamasu was killed by a Multiverse buster. It's not like the NLF applied even in-universe.

Nothing has no limits by existance of another superlative. If you say you are indestructible and I say I can destroy anything, one of us is wrong. It's all about how much credibility either claim is given.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 30, 2016)

That's what is confusing me here; I am hearing 2 different theories.

1. Says Zamasu was multiverse busted. Zeno has a lot of ki he can throw out.
2. The other says he was simply erased; removed by a higher being with dominion over him.


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## Reznor (Nov 30, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> That's what is confusing me here; I am hearing 2 different theories.
> 
> 1. Says Zamasu was multiverse busted.
> 2. The other says he was simply erased. Removed by a higher being.


Well, it's not too clear.
We have reason to believe though, that even with Beerus' hax, it wouldn't be enough to kill Zamasu.

So it might be Multiversal-level w/ hax, since Universal w/ hax would be insufficient.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 30, 2016)

And so the mystery continues. Like, is Zeno above Super Shenron's wishes because he has a higher _power level_ than Zarama or because he's the supreme ruler and everything is below him? We may never know, it seems.


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## Blocky (Nov 30, 2016)

There are 12 universes on each timeline.

If zamasu was affecting other timelines, He could able to do the same thing with other universes maybe.

Well, It been said a few times that Zeno is the most powerful being in the multiverse so he must likely be more powerful then Zarama


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