# Kizaru vs. The Shichibukai



## Rocky (Sep 16, 2014)

Minus Mihawk.

Location: Marineford
Distance: 50m
Knowledge: None

This is Kizaru against the current Shichibukai.

Scenario 2:

All three preskip Admirals vs. all people that are and once were part of the Shichibukai (Blackbeard is preskip).


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## Amol (Sep 16, 2014)

So it is Kizaru vs DD, Hancock , Law, Kuma, 7th Warlord, Buggy . 
Kizaru looses Mid(high) diff or High(low) diff . I am guessing  7th warlords power who rip Z's arm here.

Edit: Didn't see minus Mihawk there first time .


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 16, 2014)

Kizaru stomps.
Mihawk is the only warlord that can defeat him, and other members are so far below those two that it's not worth discussing. Kuma (before modifications) seemed to be promising, but it's hard to gauge how powerful he'd be. As for the other scenario, admirals take the victory quite decisively, as two of them can slaughter the remaining members while one is dealing with Mihawk; he gets overwhelmed afterward.


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Sep 16, 2014)

PX Kuma is irrelevant.
Buggy is irrelevant.
One of them is a mystery.
Law, Doflamingo and Hancock are pretty strong. 

Unless the new one is a complete monster, Shichibukais can't win this.

Scenario 2 goes to Admirals.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

S1: Until we see the new Warlord, Doflamingo and Hancock are the only ones there who may actually be worth anything against Kizaru, so I see Kizaru winning that one. All hail the Greatest Troll in OP!


S2: Admirals take it. Better firepower, better Haki, better teamwork.


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## Imagine (Sep 16, 2014)

SA arc repeat


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## Ghost (Sep 16, 2014)

Depends entirely on the new Warlord. If he is Doffy/Hancock level I say the Warlords take this and if he is somewhere between Doffy and Mihawk then definitely. 

Currently Mingo and Hancock are no match for Kizaru.


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## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

1. Is this Kizaru vs. all the current Shichibukai (excluding Mihawk) at once or in separate fights?  If it's the former, the Shichibukai win with low to mid difficulty.  If it's the latter, the only Shichibukai outside of Mihawk that I can see defeating Kizaru in a one on one fight is Doflamingo.  However, it's possible that Kizaru would defeat Doflamingo.

2. The Shichibukai win with around mid difficulty.  Mihawk, Doflamingo, and Hancock alone could either defeat or at least put up a very good fight against pre time skip Akainu, pre time skip Kizaru, and pre time skip Aokiji IMO.  Even if the Admirals win that fight- they would be very battle worn and would still have to fight pre Quake Blackbeard, Kuma, post time skip Law, Jinbe, Crocodile, Moriah, and Buggy.


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## Rocky (Sep 16, 2014)

Gohara said:


> 1. Is this Kizaru vs. all the current Shichibukai (excluding Mihawk) at once or in separate fights?  If it's the former, the Shichibukai win with low to mid difficulty.  If it's the latter, the only Shichibukai outside of Mihawk that I can see defeating Kizaru in a one on one fight is Doflamingo.  However, it's possible that Kizaru would defeat Doflamingo.



All at once.

And lol@ the latter part of that statement. I barley even follow One Piece, but even I know that Kizaru bends Doflamingo over and anally violates him with laser rods for at least 10 days non-stop, probably longer.



> Mihawk, Doflamingo, and Hancock alone could either defeat or at least put up a very good fight against pre time skip Akainu, pre time skip Kizaru, and pre time skip Aokiji IMO.



Mihawk maybe, but Doflamingo and Hancock die very very _very_ fast if they have to take on any colored admiral alone.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> All at once.
> 
> And lol@ the latter part of that statement. I barley even follow One Piece, but even I know that Kizaru bends Doflamingo over and anally violates him with laser rods for at least 10 days non-stop, probably longer.
> 
> ...


He also thinks Doflamingo can take blows from Whitebeard...


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## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

@ Rocky.

In that case, I say the Shichibukai win.  

How Doflamingo and Kizaru compare to one another isn't a matter of fact, so unless you provide proof on the contrary, I disagree that it would be any less than a high difficulty victory for either of them.  If you can provide proof, then I will happily adjust my views accordingly.  Same with what you said in regards to Hancock, although I agree Kizaru probably defeats her in a fair one on one fight.  Having said that, you're more than welcome to disagree, and if so I still respect your views.


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## Rocky (Sep 16, 2014)

Why. What has Doflamingo even done besides almost get paneled by Aokiji. I know he beat up on Smoker and Sanji, but Whitebeard would neg dif both of them simultaneously.



Gohara said:


> How Doflamingo and Kizaru compare to one another isn't a matter of fact, so unless you provide proof on the contrary, I disagree that it would be any less than a high difficulty victory for either of them.  If you can provide proof, then I will happily adjust my views accordingly.  Same with what you said in regards to Hancock, although I agree Kizaru probably defeats her in a fair one on one fight.  Having said that, you're more than welcome to disagree, and if so I still respect your views.



I don't read OP, so I don't know if there are any specific scans that comment on how Doflamingo compares to an Admiral.

The proof would be in their collection of feats throughout the story, as well as where the verse holds each in terms of portrayed power. It isn't that hard to gauge in _most_ fiction, and in this particular manga, I'm 99% sure that Borsolino throwing a kick = dead Doflamingo. Same to Hancock, who gets a light beam through her neck because her defensive ability is pathetic.


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## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't read OP, so I don't know if there are any specific scans that comment on how Doflamingo compares to an Admiral.
> 
> The proof would be in their collection of feats throughout the story, as well as where the verse holds each in terms of portrayed power. It isn't that hard to gauge in _most_ fiction, and in this particular manga, I'm 99% sure that Borsolino throwing a kick = dead Doflamingo. Same to Hancock, who gets a light beam through her neck because her defensive ability is pathetic.



I agree to an extent with this, but we have yet to see Doflamingo and Hancock fight seriously.

There's no full fledged proof one way or the other in regards to how Doflamingo compares to the Admirals.  However, to explain why I personally believe Doflamingo to be in the same league as the Admirals:

-He has an extremely high level of physical prowess, has one of the most powerful Devil Fruits in the series, and has seemingly mastered all three types of Haki.  I find these attributes to be pretty similar to the Admirals'.

-He has pretty much owned characters that I believe are just below the threshold of characters I think the Admirals can own.

-He's briefly fought/confronted multiple Admirals, and has yet to be bested by them.  If the Admirals were a lot stronger than Doflamingo, I think it would have been shown during those confrontations.  I felt like he was portrayed to be around their level.  Doflamingo also hasn't shown any particular fear towards Admirals.  He's insulted and even attacked them.

-Rayleigh trained Luffy so the latter would be able to fend off a similar invasion as pre time skip Sabaody- an invasion that included Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines.  If Rayleigh felt Luffy could already do that much around 6 months ago, I doubt that the latter would be unable to- at minimum- give an Admiral quite a bit of difficulty.  Doflamingo should be stronger than beginning of post time skip Luffy.  If Luffy were truly far weaker than the Admirals, I don't see the point of Rayleigh's training and why he would bother implying that the former should be able to fend one off with the Admiral having a lot of help by the end of his training.

-In terms of versus feats, I can't really think of anything the Admirals have done that I absolutely can not see Doflamingo doing.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Out of curiosity, does Blackbeard have both his DFs or just the YYnM? Either way, Kizaru would still win (until we see more of the new Warlord), but it may be a tad higher diff if it's Pre TS Blackbeard with both DFs.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 16, 2014)

Law, Doffy and Hancock?? You must not like Kizaru very much.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> Law, Doffy and Hancock?? You must not like Kizaru very much.


Law isn't a Warlord anymore, so he's not in S1. As for Doflamingo and Hancock, why would Kizaru worry about them?


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## Ruse (Sep 16, 2014)

Not this nonsensical Doffy wank again, the reason he hasn't been bested by an Admiral is because Oda wanted to hype up Doffy as a major villain notice how Oda always makes sure to avoid an all out clash between Doffy and an Admiral. 

All those clashes show is that Doffy isn't complete canon fodder to an Admiral but he's still way out of his depth.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 16, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Law isn't a Warlord anymore,* so he's not in S1.* As for Doflamingo and Hancock, why would Kizaru worry about them?


*Shi(SEVEN)*chibukai (- Mihawk). So yes, he is.

Why wouldn't Kizaru worry about Hancock and Doflamingo? It doesn't matter who you are, they aren't characters that you can simply walk over. There's a reason they went untouched in the war and made VA and Whitebeard commander class fighters look absolutely out of their element.



			
				Heavenly Demon;51742086[B said:
			
		

> ]Not this nonsensical Doffy wank again,[/b] the reason he hasn't been bested by an Admiral is because Oda wanted to hype up Doffy as a major villain notice how Oda always makes sure to avoid an all out clash between Doffy and an Admiral.
> 
> All those clashes show is that Doffy isn't complete canon fodder to an Admiral but he's still way out of his depth.


1. I'm not wanking Doflamingo.

2. He isn't fighting Kizaru alone here. He's fighting alongside 5 allies, 2 of which consist of Law and Hancock who in their own right are not pushovers and would serve as amazing support, and an unknown quantity in tthe form of an unknown warlord who's powerful enough to solo Z's crew and take his right arm.

Even if Kizaru wins this fight, he's not low diffing it and he certainly isn't coming out unscathed. The admiral class isn't untouchable against a tag-team packing so much versatility, hax and firepower.


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## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> the reason he hasn't been bested by an Admiral is because Oda wanted to hype up Doffy as a major villain



The opposite could also be suggested about the Admirals.



Heavenly Demon said:


> notice how Oda always makes sure to avoid an all out clash between Doffy and an Admiral.



Same as above.


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## Lawliet (Sep 16, 2014)

Kizaru loses the first scenario. No one is fighting these people at once and hope they'd win .


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## Valdie (Sep 16, 2014)

So basically Doffy and Hancock vs Kizaru?

Kizaru wins high diff. If the 7th Shichibukai is on or above Doffycock's level, then it could probably go either way.


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## Ruse (Sep 16, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> *Shi(SEVEN)*chibukai (- Mihawk). So yes, he is.
> 
> Why wouldn't Kizaru worry about Hancock and Doflamingo? It doesn't matter who you are, they aren't characters that you can simply walk over. There's a reason they went untouched in the war and made VA and Whitebeard commander class fighters look absolutely out of their element.
> 
> ...



I wasn't aiming that at you



Gohara said:


> The opposite could also be suggested about the Admirals.
> 
> 
> 
> Same as above.



Considering that the Admrials have better all round portrayal how 'bout no.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> *Shi(SEVEN)*chibukai. So yes, he is.





Rocky said:


> Minus Mihawk.
> 
> Location: Marineford
> Distance: 50m
> ...


Issho's goal was to arrest Law once he found out Luffy and he were in an alliance, so I'm pretty sure he's not a Warlord anymore. Even if he is still a Warlord, he's fodder to an Admiral anyway.


Louis-954 said:


> Why wouldn't Kizaru worry about Hancock and Doflamingo? They aren't characters that you can simply walk over.


Hancock has what feats exactly? As for Doflamingo, he got hurt by Luffy's Red Hawk, which is far FAR weaker than Yasakani no Magatama or a Falcon Kick...so yeah.


Louis-954 said:


> 2. He isn't fighting Kizaru alone here. He's fighting alongside 5 allies, 2 of which consist of Law and Hancock who in their own right are not pushovers and would serve as amazing support, and an unknown quantity in tthe form of an unknown warlord who's powerful enough to solo Z's crew and take his right arm.


Law's useless if his Haki is inferior to his opponent's, Kuma is little more than a Pacifista with no Haki, and iirc the new Warlord resorted to trickery to cut off Z's arm (when Z was likely not as strong as he once was).


Louis-954 said:


> Even if Kizaru wins this fight, he's not low diffing it and he certainly isn't coming out unscathed. The admiral class isn't untouchable against a tag-team packing so much versatility, hax and firepower.


Eh, I'd say mid, high diff if it's a bad day.


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## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> Considering that the Admrials have better all round portrayal how 'bout no.



I respectfully disagree.  I think they have pretty similar portrayal so far.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 16, 2014)

> Issho's goal was to arrest Law once he found out Luffy and he were in an  alliance, so I'm pretty sure he's not a Warlord anymore. Even if he is  still a Warlord, *he's fodder to an Admiral anyway.*


No he isn't, lol.



> Hancock has what feats exactly? As for Doflamingo, he got hurt by  Luffy's Red Hawk, which is far FAR weaker than Yasakani no Magatama or a  Falcon Kick...so yeah.


Bringing Momonga to his knees in one move? How about embarrassing Sentoumaru? Effortlessly one shotting Pacifista after Pacifista?



> *Law's useless* if his Haki is inferior to his opponent's, Kuma is little  more than a Pacifista with no Haki, and iirc the new Warlord resorted to  trickery to cut off Z's arm (when Z was likely not as strong as he once  was).


Yes because he can't use Shambles on himself, his allies, enemy attacks etc etc. Law is far from helpless against an admiral and his ability offers a lot of utility that works well in conjunction with others. He bought an ample amount of time against Doflamingo *and* Fujitora, even managing to escape the latter and negate/redirect several of his attacks. If he were fodder to Fujitora, he wouldn't have been able to manage even that much. Keep in mind that's just him by himself without the support he'd have in this fight.



> Eh, I'd say mid, high diff if it's a bad day.


You overestimate Admirals. They are far from the untouchable gods who can solo 10+ Luffy level opponents that this section seems to believe they are. Yes an Admiral can defeat any of them individually with low-mid effort, but all of them at once? Delusional.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I respectfully disagree.  I think they have pretty similar portrayal so far.


Admirals:
- Hyped to be the Greatest Military Powers in the Marines
- Portrayed as the counterparts to the Yonko
- Held their ground against the WSM
- Their feats shit on Doflamingo's

Doflamingo:
- A Warlord
- Pissed his pants at the thought of angering Kaido
- Pissed his pants again when Issho casually dropped a meteor
- Thinks it'll be trouble attempting to kill Issho (who many consider inferior to the Admirals and Yonko)
- Got hurt by attacks the Admirals would laugh at

So...


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2014)

DD alone should be able to give Kizaru at least mid diff. DD was clearly portrayed above Jozu, who was fighting Admirals in the War of the Best. He's also stepped to an Admiral several times and Aokiji believed an Admiral was necessary to deal with him. He's mastered all types of Haki and has a great deal of skill with one of the more hax DF, even displaying moves on the same or greater scale than the Admirals (bird cage). 

Law at the pinnacle of his strength is also close to DD, given how even when exhausted he is owning DD's executives and how he fought against DD and an Admiral for some time.

Hancock is most likely stronger than DD given the fact that in shonens, the members of the organizaiton who have not gone all out yet are usually stronger than the ones who have. So unless she goes all out in the very next arc, here feats will end up being better and Oda will almost certainly make her stronger. Pretty much the same is true of Kuma and the 7th Warlord

Given this Kizaru gets stomped here.


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## TheWiggian (Sep 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> DD alone should be able to give Kizaru at least mid diff. DD was clearly portrayed above Jozu, who was fighting Admirals in the War of the Best. He's also stepped to an Admiral several times and Aokiji believed an Admiral was necessary to deal with him. He's mastered all types of Haki and has a great deal of skill with one of the more hax DF, even displaying moves on the same or greater scale than the Admirals (bird cage).
> 
> Law at the pinnacle of his strength is also close to DD, given how even when exhausted he is owning DD's executives and how he fought against DD and an Admiral for some time.
> 
> ...



Thats cool so Hancock could rlly end up being stronger as WB


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> No he isn't, lol.
> 
> Yes because he can't use Shambles on himself, his allies, enemy attacks etc etc. Law is far from helpless against an admiral and his ability offers a lot of utility that works well in conjunction with others.


Prove that Law has good enough Haki to bypass Kizaru's Haki/Logia defense, or take attacks like Yasakani no Magatama, or GTFO. Also, I don't see Law being able to deflect YnK (which have hundreds of bolts each capable of making a huge explosion), or keeping up for long (as it drains his stamina).


Louis-954 said:


> He bought an ample amount of time against Doflamingo *and* Fujitora


They were toying with him.


Louis-954 said:


> Bringing Momonga to his knees in one move?


Which Kizaru could do and with more permanent results (Momonga actually managed to find a way to avoid her powers).


Louis-954 said:


> How about embarrassing Sentoumaru?


Sentomaru has what feats exactly?


Louis-954 said:


> Effortlessly one shotting Pacifista after Pacifista?


So can Luffy and the rest of the M3. Actually, the M3's feats are better than Hancock's, those Pacifistas weren't even allowed to attack her.


Louis-954 said:


> You overestimate Admirals. They are far from the untouchable gods who can solo 10+ Luffy level opponents that this section seems to believe they are. Yes an Admiral can defeat any of them individually with low-mid effort


Akainu (someone on Kizaru's level) treated M3 fighters like trash even after getting hit by an Island Splitter.


Louis-954 said:


> but all of them at once? Delusional.


Hancock and Doflamingo are the only ones worth taking seriously and they get trolled as well. S2 is a win for the Admirals as well.


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## Luke (Sep 16, 2014)

Kizaru wins with high difficulty. 

If on the incredibly off chance Hancock ends up being stronger than Doflamingo, Kizaru wins with extreme difficulty.


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## Grimsley (Sep 16, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> Thats cool so Hancock could rlly end up being stronger as WB



Difference is Whitebeard has always been declared the strongest. 

The longer Oda prolongs Hancock from going all out the stronger she will become. I agree with Turrin, she's probably stronger than Doflamingo. Lets not also forget the fact that Hancock had no issues opposing the fleet admiral and also attacking Kuzan (though this point can be said more about her bravado but still) while Doflamingo was scared of the admirals coming after him and nervously ran away from Kuzan after getting frozen like a bitch (no observation haki? Hancock has all 3 Haki)


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## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Admirals:
> - Hyped to be the Greatest Military Powers in the Marines
> - Portrayed as the counterparts to the Yonko
> - Held their ground against the WSM
> ...



-Being the greatest military force doesn't necessarily mean they're the strongest individuals in the marines, and even if it did Doflamingo isn't in the marines, and thus that statement doesn't include him.

-I respectfully disagree that they've been portrayed to be the counterparts of the Yonkou.

-I could maybe agree that they held their ground by comparison, but I wouldn't say any of them are in old Whitebeard's league.

-I personally can't think of any versus feats they have that clearly puts them notably above Doflamingo.

-True, but the positions of Admiral and Shichibukai don't have a relationship of superiority.

-True, but that just means Kaidou's significantly more powerful than Doflamingo.  I believe that Kaidou is also significantly more powerful than most, if not all the Admirals, though.

-Not really.  He was mainly just angry about it.  He destroyed the meteor without much of a problem, and then insulted Fujitora to his face.  Despite knowing about Fujitora's meteor ability he had no problem attacking him.  Then, his Bird Cage destroyed Fujitora's meteors as a side effect.

-Of course.  I'm sure any fight between two characters that are around the same level would be troubling for either of them.  I'm not sure what you mean with what you said in parenthesis.  Fujitora is an Admiral.

-We've never seen current Luffy fight an Admiral, so we don't know that to be the case.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 16, 2014)

> Prove that Law has good enough Haki to bypass Kizaru's Haki/Logia  defense, or take attacks like Yasakani no Magatama, or GTFO. Also, I  don't see Law being able to deflect YnK (which have hundreds of bolts  each capable of making a huge explosion), or keeping up for long (as it  drains his stamina).


He doesn't have to take any attack, he can redirect them or Shambles himself out of the way* like he's shown time and time again. Including against Fujitora*.



> They were toying with him.


*Prove it.*



> Which Kizaru could do and with more permanent results (Momonga actually managed to find a way to avoid her powers).


Of course he could. Jesus Christ you're fucking dense! *No, Hancock is not as strong as Kizaru and I never said she was*. She still* effortlessly out-classed a Vice-Admiral* who has been around since the days of Roger. For the umpteenth time, I'm not comparing these characters to Kizaru individually, but as a single unit.



> Sentomaru has what feats exactly?


Commands a legion of Pacifista; Tasked with personally guarding the WG's most important asset (Vegapunk); Haki user. 



> So can Luffy and the rest of the M3. Actually, the M3's feats are better  than Hancock's, those Pacifistas weren't even allowed to attack her.


Lol @ you if you truly believe Hancock can't just as effortlessly accomplish the same feats against a hostile Pacifista. You're really grasping.



> Akainu (someone on Kizaru's level) treated M3 fighters like trash even after getting hit by an Island Splitter.


Up to you to prove that the commanders are all current M3 level combatants, because in the manga I read, even Sanji performed better against Doflamingo than Atmos did. You also speak as if those commanders weren't also all currently worn out from the war they had just been fighting for hours on end. The Shichibukai in this scenario are all fresh.



> *Hancock and Doflamingo are the only ones worth taking seriously and they  get trolled as well.* S2 is a win for the Admirals as well.


No.


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## TheWiggian (Sep 16, 2014)

jackieshann said:


> Difference is Whitebeard has always been declared the strongest.
> 
> The longer Oda prolongs Hancock from going all out the stronger she will become. I agree with Turrin, she's probably stronger than Doflamingo. Lets not also forget the fact that Hancock had no issues opposing the fleet admiral and also attacking Kuzan (though this point can be said more about her bravado but still)



She never attacked Kuzan and luckily Marco engaged him, else Aokiji would have fucked her in all her bodys holes.

Also not a single Shichibukai been totally loyal to the world government/marine, Hancock is not an exception.



jackieshann said:


> while Doflamingo was scared of the admirals coming after him and nervously ran away from Kuzan after getting frozen like a bitch (no observation haki? Hancock has all 3 Haki)



I wonder what Hancock would do if Aokiji would freeze her like a whore she is? Prove that she can free herself  cuz Jozu couldnt but Doffy did.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> Thats cool so Hancock could rlly end up being stronger as WB


WB is a 7Warlord


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## TheWiggian (Sep 16, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> He doesn't have to take any attack, he can redirect them or Shambles himself out of the way* like he's shown time and time again. Including against Fujitora*.



So he will run, teleport himself away till he runs out of stamina and begs for the trolls mercy?



Louis-954 said:


> *Prove it.*



No named attacks, so unimportant that it was mostly offpaneled.



Louis-954 said:


> Of course he could. Jesus Christ you're fucking dense! *No, Hancock is not as strong as Kizaru and I never said she was*. She still* effortlessly out-classed a Vice-Admiral* who has been around since the days of Roger. For the umpteenth time, I'm not comparing these characters to Kizaru individually, but as a single unit.



Prove that Momonga is any different from other VA's? Except for his Age??? Hancock effortlessly out-classed, but couldnt beat him as Momonga even stated after that. Bartolomeo completly fodder-stomped Maynard. Nothing special about fodderizing VA's these days...



Louis-954 said:


> Commands a legion of Pacifista; Tasked with personally guarding the WG's most important asset (Vegapunk); Haki user.



Commands an army of braindead fodder. Self-proclaimed Haki user.



Louis-954 said:


> Lol @ you if you truly believe Hancock can't just as effortlessly accomplish the same feats against a hostile Pacifista. You're really grasping.




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Prooooooooofffff?????























































































Louis-954 said:


> No.



Yes.




Turrin said:


> WB is a 7Warlord



Just imagine he was and gone out and ur statement: 



Turrin said:


> Hancock is most likely stronger than DD given the fact that in shonens, the members of the organizaiton who have not gone all out yet are usually stronger than the ones who have. So unless she goes all out in the very next arc, here feats will end up being better and Oda will almost certainly make her stronger. Pretty much the same is true of Kuma and the 7th Warlord.



would apply huh?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Thought she wouldnt be a villian of the strawhats and it all makes no sense at all.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> Just imagine he was and gone out and ur statement:
> 
> 
> 
> would apply huh?


The statement would not apply, because White-Beard is not a Warlord. If WB was a Warlord the entire story would be different. The more apt comparison would be the other Yonko. Though even than, WB did not go all out at Marine Ford, we saw a significantly handicapped WB fight


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## Louis-954 (Sep 16, 2014)

> So he will run, teleport himself away till he runs out of stamina and begs for the trolls mercy


Yes... because he can't also do things like this:




Oh wait...



> No named attacks, so unimportant that it was mostly offpaneled.


Whitebeard didn't use any named attacks against the Admirals. Guess he wasn't serious about saving Ace. Sabo didn't use anything named against Fujitora so I guess he wasn't serious about keeping him away from Luffy. = your logic.



> Prove that Momonga is any different from other VA's? Except for his  Age??? Hancock effortlessly out-classed, but couldnt beat him as Momonga  even stated after that.


He was sent to retrieve Hancock, and unlike Maynard, held his own against Whitebeard pirate allied Captains and Division Commanders. He was also put in charge of G1 following the TS. Must be because he's fodder.



> Commands an army of braindead fodder. Self-proclaimed Haki user.


"Self-proclaimed"? We've seen him use it multiple times.



> Prooooooooofffff?????


I'm sure Sengoku speaks so highly of all his Pacifista level subordinates.


----------



## TheWiggian (Sep 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The statement would not apply, because White-Beard is not a Warlord. If WB was a Warlord the entire story would be different. The more apt comparison would be the other Yonko. Though even than, WB did not go all out at Marine Ford, we saw a significantly handicapped WB fight



Always an excuse up ur sleeve lol. Nvm



Louis-954 said:


> Yes... because he can't also do things like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. With what they shown till now, they cant bypass an admirals busoushoku and logia intangibility.
2. Casual no named attack as test just as said by Fuji after that move.
3. Same as 2.
4. Against fodder... oh wait ... why u even bring it in here.



Louis-954 said:


> Whitebeard didn't use any named attacks against the Admirals. Guess he wasn't serious about saving Ace. = your logic.



WB's title makes up for that, what does Law have?



Louis-954 said:


> He was sent to retrieve Hancock, and unlike Maynard, held his own against Whitebeard pirate allied Captains and Division Commanders. He was also put in charge of G1 following the TS. Must be because he's fodder.



Exactly Momonga did not even had the permission to atk Hancock so why u hype her with that and then dehype her in ur next comment? 



Louis-954 said:


> "Self-proclaimed"? We've seen him use it multiple times.



His best Haki (pro-claimed) is not as good as u think, he was only able to beat up pre ts fighters with it.



Louis-954 said:


> I'm sure Sengoku speaks so highly of all his Pacifista level subordinates.




Because there r so many powerful women out there huh?


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 16, 2014)

I don't even remember all shichibukais, but i remember Kuma Croco Doffy and Hancock who probably get high diffed by Kizaru or extreme diff at worst, but Kizaru won't lose.
Sc2: -____- idek Admirals win. 1 of them go at it against all of em except for Mihawk who gets gangbanged by the other two Admirals


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## Louis-954 (Sep 16, 2014)

> 1. With what they shown till now, *they cant bypass an admirals busoushoku and logia intangibility.*


Lol what? Why is that? Where was that stated? Got a link tot he page?



> 2. Casual no named attack as test just as said by Fuji after that move.


Whitebeard and Sabo say hi.



> 3. Same as 2.


Same as above.



> 4. Against fodder... oh wait ... why u even bring it in here.


Looks like the context and implication flew right over your head. Why am I not surprised? The point is that his fruits utility allows for him to be a whole hell of a lot more useful than simply prolonging his life by running away. Here, I'll spell it out for you: He can redirect and and send attacks back towards their source.



> WB's title makes up for that, what does Law have?


No it doesn't. Stop with the double standards. If you don't like the Whitebeard example, then explain why Sabo didn't use a named attack against Fujitora? Was he not serious about keeping him away from Luffy and co? How about Marco? He didn't use any named attacks against the Admirals. Was he just playing around too? Pretty sure neither of them have the WSM title that you're trying to hide behind.



> Exactly Momonga did not even had the permission to atk Hancock so why u  hype her with that and *then dehype her in ur next comment?*


What?... She effortlessly brought a senior, decorated VA to his knees. Dunno in what world that dehype for her.



> His best Haki (pro-claimed) is not as good as u think, he was only able to beat up pre ts fighters with it.


You must have missed the arc where he fought in a huge war surrounded by veteran New World Captains and Whitebeard Division Commanders. *I'm sure he's never fought against anyone stronger than pre-ts Luffy,* right... *Get real, dude.* He never said he was the best at Haki.



> Because there r so many powerful women out there huh?


What does her gender have to do with the fact that she's decisively a *great deal* stronger than the Pacifista? If she weren't in fact strong, the Fleet Admiral of the Marines wouldn't have praised her strength.


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 16, 2014)

Kizaru gets stomped. I don't see a single admiral(and the weakest at that) defeating 6 warlords, no matter who they are. Portrayal-wise, it's never happening


----------



## Zeus. (Sep 16, 2014)

Scenario 1 : Kizaru gets babyshaked

Scenario 2 : Admirals low diff


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

To answer your question Louis, your Haki needs to be close to the Admiral's own level of Haki in order to make them tangible, if it isn't, you will never hit the Admiral's actual body underneath the Logia defense. And if you can't hit them, you will never beat them. Luffy and people on his level certainly can't, Luffy has the best Haki shown among the Supernovas, and trained with Rayleigh (master of it) for two years to use it, yet he couldn't even block Hody's bite with it. Even when the Warlords do hit the actual body, the Admirals are durability monsters, they can tank insane damage (ie fighting for ten days, getting only a bloody lip from Jozu, walking off island splitting force).


Blake said:


> Kizaru gets stomped. I don't see a single admiral(and the weakest at that) defeating 6 warlords, no matter who they are. Portrayal-wise, it's never happening


Portrayal-wise, Doflamingo is the strongest member of the Warlords bar Mihawk (until Hancock lives up to her fanbase's insane standards), and any of the Admirals would comfortably beat him. Until we get more feats from the new Warlord, the rest of the Warlords are garbage.

Also, Akainu says hi. If you don't think Kizaru can beat these opponents (which he does), Akainu definitely can do it. Oda deliberately put that Marco/Vista scene to show his incredible defense even against Haki masters, he was the only Admiral to keep his intangibility from Marco, and Marco had Vista's help to boot.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 16, 2014)

> To answer your question Louis,* your Haki needs to be close to the  Admiral's own level of Haki in order to make them tangible,* if it isn't,  you will never hit the Admiral's actual body underneath the Logia  defense. And if you can't hit them, you will never beat them.


Again I ask you where this is explicitly stated in the manga. I'm pretty sure that Marco sent Aokiji and Kizaru (Akainu's near equals) flying with a couple of kicks and that Jozu injured Aokiji as well. If your unsubstantiated fan-canon holds true then the following *must* be true: *Kizaru and Aokiji's Haki is much weaker than Akainu's.* if it isn't then why didn't they phase through the respective admirals the say way Marco and Vista passed through Akainu? What probably happened is Akainu recognized the impending threat and manuevered his body the same way Aokiji did to seemingly phase through Whitebeards bisento thrust.



> the Admirals are durability monsters, they can tank insane damage (ie  fighting for ten days, getting only a bloody lip from Jozu, walking off  island splitting force). *Luffy and people on his level certainly can't,*  Luffy has the best Haki shown among the Supernovas, and trained with  Rayleigh (master of it) for two years to use it, yet he couldn't even  block Hody's bite with it.


People far weaker than current Luffy (Ace and Jimbe of 5yrs ago) could fight for 5 days straight. It isn't impossible that with teamwork that a group of Shichibukai at and slightly above Luffy's level could carry on a  fight against an admiral for a prolonged period of time. Just because it took Akainu 10 days to defeat Aokiji, does not mean that it would take 6 Shichibukai 10 days to bring down an admiral. Different powers and different set of circumstances at play here.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> Again I ask you where this is explicitly stated in the manga. I'm pretty sure that Marco sent Aokiji and Kizaru (Akainu's near equals) flying with a couple of kicks and that Jozu injured Aokiji as well. If your unsubstantiated fan-canon holds true then the following *must* be true: *Kizaru and Aokiji's Haki is much weaker than Akainu's.*


The last horse crosses the finish line. Don't know if their Haki is *that* far beneath Akainu's, but without a doubt, Akainu has the best Haki among the Logia Trio.


Louis-954 said:


> People far weaker than current Luffy (Ace and Jimbe of 5yrs ago) could fight for 5 days straight. It isn't impossible that with teamwork that a group of Shichibukai at and slightly above Luffy's level could carry on a  fight against an admiral for a prolonged period of time. Just because it took Akainu 10 days to defeat Aokiji, does not mean that it would take 6 Shichibukai 10 days to bring down an admiral. Different powers and different set of circumstances at play here.


1.) Luffy's Haki couldn't block a fodder's bite, so anyone on his level can't make an Admiral tangible with their level of Haki.
2.) Akainu fodderized M3 level fighters even after getting hit by an Island Splitter (which none of the Warlords in S1 can come close to matching).
3.) Doflamingo and Hancock are the only ones worth taking seriously, but Kizaru can comfortably beat them. Doflamingo was hurt by Luffy's Red Hawk, which is miles below Kizaru's most powerful attacks, one of which (ie Yasakani no Magatama) Kizaru can simply spam once he flies out of their range.
4.) Kizaru wins.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> Always an excuse up ur sleeve lol. Nvm


So your trolling Nvm


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 17, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Portrayal-wise, Doflamingo is the strongest member of the Warlords bar Mihawk (until Hancock lives up to her fanbase's insane standards), and any of the Admirals would comfortably beat him. Until we get more feats from the new Warlord, the rest of the Warlords are garbage.
> 
> Also, Akainu says hi. If you don't think Kizaru can beat these opponents (which he does), Akainu definitely can do it. Oda deliberately put that Marco/Vista scene to show his incredible defense even against Haki masters, he was the only Admiral to keep his intangibility from Marco, and Marco had Vista's help to boot.


You admit yourself that you've no idea exactly how strong Hancock is. You also have no idea exactly how strong the 7th Shichibukai actually is. For those reasons, you've actually no way to argue about this via feats. My reasonment about the stupidity around one admiral defeating 6warlords is the fact that the manga has portrayed the shichibukai institution as on the level as yonkou/marine HQ(as a whole)

Brannew pretty much said that



So if the shichibukais as a whole represents a level comparable to the marine HQ, impossible that a single admiral could solo them even if we restrict one of them unless Mihawk is stronger than all of the yonkou/marine HQ to the point of balancing things out


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Blake said:


> You admit yourself that you've no idea exactly how strong Hancock is.


At BEST she's on Doflamingo's level, and even that's shaky.


Blake said:


> You also have no idea exactly how strong the 7th Shichibukai actually is.


So we can't use him here. You also never stated which six Warlords minus Mihawk (Pre TS in particular is GG Akainu).


Blake said:


> For those reasons, you've actually no way to argue about this via feats. My reasonment about the stupidity around one admiral defeating 6warlords is the fact that the manga has portrayed the shichibukai institution as on the level as yonkou/marine HQ(as a whole)
> 
> Brannew pretty much said that
> 
> ...


Uh, only Mihawk is on the level of the Admirals and the Yonko, and until shown otherwise, I'd happily pick any Admiral or Yonko over him anyday of the week. Since he's not here anyway, it's a guaranteed win for Kizaru (feel free to explain how the Warlords handle YnK when he warps away and spams it).


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## Louis-954 (Sep 17, 2014)

> The last horse crosses the finish line. Don't know if their Haki is *that* far beneath Akainu's, but without a doubt, Akainu has the best Haki among the Logia Trio.


Aokiji and Kizaru are damn near equal to Akainu and Akainu only just barely triumphed over Aokiji. He would have finished the fight much sooner if his Haki was superior to Aokiji's, but it wasn't. You're really trying to convince me that Akainu's* negligibly* superior Haki is what makes the difference between Marco flooring Aokiji into a building and phasing through Akainu? *That* brand of logic is more sensible to you than conceding that  Akainu simply evaded their attacks the same way Aokiji evaded Whitebeard? Are you listening to yourself? Lol. :rofl



> 1.) Luffy's Haki couldn't block a fodder's bite, so *anyone on his level can't make an Admiral tangible with their level of Haki.*


How does one have even remotely anything to do with the other? I'm still waiting on the scan where that explicitly stated to be the case. 



> 2.) Akainu fodderized M3 level fighters even after getting hit by an  Island Splitter (which none of the Warlords in S1 can come close to  matching).


Prove they were M3 level. Pretty sure Sanji performed a lot better against Doflamingo than freaking Atmos. And stop acting like they were fresh when they fought Akainu, because they weren't.



> 3.) Doflamingo and Hancock are the only ones worth taking seriously, but  Kizaru can comfortably beat them. Doflamingo was hurt by Luffy's Red  Hawk, which is miles below Kizaru's most powerful attacks, one of which  (ie Yasakani no Magatama) Kizaru can simply spam once he flies out of  their range.


Shambles easily brings Kizaru back into range or redirects the Yasakani if Law so desires, and there isn't a soul alive in this manga that wouldn't feel it if Luffy hit them with a Red Hawk clean. Plus, you already know Doflamingo will be taking far bigger attacks than Red Hawk as this fight drags on, so stop pretending like Red Hawk put him one foot in the grave.


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## Peppoko (Sep 17, 2014)

No Mihawk. Buggy and Kuma are useless. Law isn't a shichibukai anymore. We don't know who the 7th warlord is. So it's Kizaru vs Doflamingo and Hancock.

Doflamingo and Hancock win high-diff
I consider Doflamingo to be a bit weaker than an admiral and Hancock a bit weaker than Doflamingo. As a team they should be able to handle Kizaru quite well. They both have strong DFs and are proficent haki users (all three types).


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## Amol (Sep 17, 2014)

I am not entering in this debate but * Issho D Tea*, do you believe that Akainu has whole other level of Haki than Aokiji ?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> Aokiji and Kizaru are damn near equal to Akainu and Akainu only just barely triumphed over Aokiji. He would have finished the fight much sooner if his Haki was superior to Aokiji's, but it wasn't.


Uh, yes it is. I dare to say that's what helped Akainu triumph over Aokiji, their DFs effectively canceled each other out, and most of their stats were already near equal, so Akainu's Haki helped him edge out the fight.


Louis-954 said:


> You're really trying to convince me that Akainu's* negligibly* superior Haki is what makes the difference between Marco flooring Aokiji into a building and phasing through Akainu? *That* brand of logic is more sensible to you than conceding that  Akainu simply evaded their attacks the same way Aokiji evaded Whitebeard?


There's no way to prove Aokiji made a hole to dodge the bisento unless I'm mistaken. And how did Akainu avoid their attacks? They caught him offguard. 


Louis-954 said:


> How does one have even remotely anything to do with the other? I'm still waiting on the scan where that explicitly stated to be the case.


I already gave you the Marco/Vista scene, but in case you want more...

Whitebeard attacks Kizaru...nothing happens. Whitebeard could only bypass an Admiral's Logia defense when he went bloodlusted, he failed to make an Admiral tangible every time before then.

A WB Commander (likely Haki user) attacks Kizaru...nothing happens.


Louis-954 said:


> Prove they were M3 level. Pretty sure Sanji performed a lot better against Doflamingo than freaking Atmos. And stop acting like they were fresh when they fought Akainu, because they weren't.


And Akainu wasn't fresh when he floored Iva and Jimbei and clashed with the WB Commanders after getting hit by an Island Splitter, so it all evens out. Thanks for bringing up Doflamingo no diffing Sanji btw. Lets think about this. Doflamingo wasn't Admiral level, yet he could no diff Sanji. A half faced Whitebeard ran into Yami Blackbeard, who is still > the M3, yet he still physically manhandled Blackbeard. So what does that tell you about how the M3 compare to Admirals and Yonko?


Louis-954 said:


> Shambles easily brings Kizaru back into range


His Room has a limited range, which Kizaru can easily avoid.


Louis-954 said:


> or redirects the Yasakani if Law so desires


Law was only shown redirecting single meteors. Kizaru's YnK consists of hundreds of bolts, each capable of making a massive explosion, so I really don't see Law being able to redirect them all. Even if by some miracle he could, he will tire much MUCH faster than Kizaru.


Louis-954 said:


> and there isn't a soul alive in this manga that wouldn't feel it if Luffy hit them with a Red Hawk clean.


Well, Marco failed to injure a single Admiral with his kicks, and the best Jozu accomplished was one bloody lip, so you're wrong...again.


Louis-954 said:


> Plus, you already know Doflamingo will be taking far bigger attacks than Red Hawk as this fight drags on, so stop pretending like Red Hawk put him one foot in the grave.


I never said it put him in the grave, but it certainly did hurt him, and Luffy's Red Hawk and Kizaru's Falcon Kick (and other awesome light based attacks) are galaxies apart.


----------



## Louis-954 (Sep 17, 2014)

> If u believe any M3 fighter with his shown feats is able to do better as  *Marco, Jozu and Vista,* its on u to prove the point because u claim they  can hurt an admiral.


We've seen the M3, Law and Doflamingo use bigger attacks than what the Admirals were hit with in the war.



> Best example is Marco and Vista couldnt hurt any of the admirals, they  both failed to dmg Akainu, Marco managed to kick away Kizaru (who got  not a single scratch from it)


Like I told Issho earlier:

1. Either Akainu's Haki is* immeasurably *above that of Aokiji's and Kizaru's (lol)

or

2. Akainu slipped around the attacks the same way Aokiji slipped around Whitebeard's attack.

Which possibility makes more sense to you?



> WB is the WSM and Sabo just mastered his fruit, there cant be many named attacks.


So what you're saying is that in *every* instance where a character has fought without using named attacks is that all of them were serious  *except Fujitora? *:rofl :rofl :rofl



> Yep, how will he send back *millions of YnM?* He redirected casual, kinda  small meteors, fodder bullets and teleported a couple of ppl. If Kizaru  spams YnM he quickly runs out of stamina, teleporting his teammates,  himself and redirecting (if he can and ull have to prove it) all rays.


Show me the panel where he's shown to be able to fire millions of them.



> What? he didnt even had the rights to attack her, so why u keep talking about it.


The *fact* remains that she brought him to his knees. Whether or not he was permitted to attack her afterwards doesn't matter because the feat had* already been achieved.

*


> So what did he do? he looked pretty messed up after that.


The point is that he can hold his own just fine in a war chalk full of people stronger than pre-ts Luffy.





> Every M3 fighter after the ts is a great deal stronger as a Pacifista.  And cmon *name me a few females in One Piece who are strong *except  Hancock and Big Mom (if the latter is even a woman).


What does this have to do with anything that we're talking about? I could care less if every other woman in the series was chapter 1 Nami level, that doesn't change the fact that Hancock is powerful.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Am I reading this right? The M3 have better physical strength than *Jozu*?


----------



## Louis-954 (Sep 17, 2014)

> Uh, yes it is. I dare to say that's what helped Akainu triumph over  Aokiji, their DFs effectively canceled each other out, and most of their  stats were already near equal, so Akainu's Haki *helped him edge out the  fight.*


I'm not debating that with you. i think it's fair to say that Akainu is *negligibly/slightly *superior to Aokiji, but to the degree that means the difference between one being sent flying by Marco and the other lolling at him as he phases through him? *NO.*



> There's no way to prove Aokiji made a hole to dodge the bisento unless  I'm mistaken. And how did Akainu avoid their attacks? They caught him  offguard.


Well then you're being inconsistent in your argument. Are you saying Marco's Haki is superior to his captains? That's the only other explanation.



> I already gave you the Marco/Vista scene, but in case you want more...
> 
> Whitebeard attacks Kizaru...nothing happens. Whitebeard could only  bypass an Admiral's Logia defense when he went bloodlusted, he failed to  make an Admiral tangible every time before then.


Or, you know, the Admirals are simply proficient enough with their ability do shit that even Smoker is capable of.




> So what does that tell you about how the M3 compare to Admirals and Yonko?


It tells me that a* single, low-end *M3 level character loses to an Admiral quite handidly. I *never* debated that with you, nor am I trying too. Law, Doflamingo and Hancock however are not low-end M3 level characters and they are not fighting the admiral 1-on-1, but 6-on-1.



> His Room has a limited range, which Kizaru can easily avoid.


He can cover a mountain, if Kizaru wants to get out of range of Law's room then that just makes his attacks that much easier to dodge. I think we can both agree that Kizaru isn't mopping up 6 warlords with YnM. That's absolutely silly.



> Law was only shown redirecting single meteors. Kizaru's YnK consists of  hundreds of bolts, each capable of making a massive explosion, so I  really don't see Law being able to redirect them all. Even if by some  miracle he could, he will tire much MUCH faster than Kizaru.


He doesn't have to redirect the them all, he can be economical about it since it's a scattershot technique.



> Well, Marco failed to injure a single Admiral with his kicks, and the  best Jozu accomplished was one bloody lip, so you're wrong...again.


The hits landed and Aokiji felt them and there's no way to gauge how strong those hits were in relation to Red Hawk. Doubt they were that much stronger since Crocodile remained conscious after the same hit that bloodied Aokiji's lip.



> Am I reading this right? The M3 have better physical strength than *Jozu*?


Ami I reading this right? You need to have greater physical strength than Jozu to damage an Admiral? Physical strength is the only way to get anything done in the manga?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 17, 2014)

The New Warlord is probably a top tier or at least Doflamingo level. 

So Kizaru has quite the fight on his hands despite Mihawk not being involved. Law is also a very great team-mate with his ability to shambles everything and everyone cause he is op.

Warlords win, not sure on difficulty.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> I'm not debating that with you. i think it's fair to say that Akainu is *negligibly/slightly *superior to Aokiji, but to the degree that means the difference between one being sent flying by Marco and the other lolling at him as he phases through him? *YES.*


Glad we agree. 


Louis-954 said:


> Well then you're being inconsistent in your argument. Are you saying Marco's Haki is superior to his captains? That's the only other explanation.


Actually, yes, I do think that's the case, at least until Whitebeard gets bloodlusted.  It's guesswork, but I choose to believe it for now.


Louis-954 said:


> Or, you know, the Admirals are simply proficient enough with their ability do shit that even Smoker is capable of.


Or it's simply because your Haki needs to be close to your opponent's Haki in order to make them tangible. 


Louis-954 said:


> It tells me that a* single, low-end *M3 level character loses to an Admiral quite handidly. I *never* debated that with you, nor am I trying too. Law, Doflamingo and Hancock however are not low-end M3 level characters and they are not fighting the admiral 1-on-1, but 6-on-1.


Law isn't on Doflamingo or Hancock's level.  Same goes for the other Warlords (Kuma, Buggy). And Kizaru can beat Doflamingo and Hancock.


Louis-954 said:


> He can cover a mountain, if Kizaru wants to get out of range of Law's room then that just makes his attacks that much easier to dodge.


Did you not see the AoE of YnK? 


Louis-954 said:


> I think we can both agree that Kizaru isn't mopping up 6 warlords with YnM. That's absolutely silly.


Yes he is...


Louis-954 said:


> The hits landed and Aokiji felt them and there's no way to gauge how strong those hits were in relation to Red Hawk. Doubt they were that much stronger since Crocodile remained conscious after the same hit that bloodied Aokiji's lip.
> 
> Ami I reading this right? You need to have greater physical strength than Jozu to damage an Admiral? Physical strength is the only way to get anything done in the manga?


Marco and Jozu are still stronger than the M3, Jozu in particular has one of the best strength feats in the manga, yet he was only able to give Aokiji a little bloody lip. Saying that the M3 have shown feats near that is just...


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## Amol (Sep 17, 2014)

Lol at Akainu being * levels * above Aokiji in Haki .
No doubt he has * slightly * superior haki than Aokiji but saying it is on whole other level is plane silly .
Aokiji is admiral level guy . If you can hit him then you have more than enough haki to hit Akainu .
That means Marco can very well hit Akainu. Jozu can very well hit Akainu .
I don't know from where this notion came from but* you don't need to have similar level of Haki to bypass logia defence (unless someone want to make case that Aokiji has haki equal to Jozu whom he can mid diff ).*
It is fanfiction term that you need this- this  amount of Haki to bypass logia defence . 
Someone like Crocodile activate his logia defence without warning. It is not that hard to believe that Akainu is better than him in DF mastery.


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## Extravlad (Sep 17, 2014)

The new warlord got his ass beaten by Zephyr he's nowhere near admiral lvl.
Kizaru murder the shichibukai, none of them is toptier but Mihawk and he's not included in this fight.

As for the C3 against all the shichibukai, well again only Mihawk is a threat, Akainu can fight him while the 2 others admirals murderstomp dem fodders.


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## trance (Sep 17, 2014)

Current Shichibukai minus Mihawk? Well, that means Buggy (lol), Kuma, Doffy, Hanock and the unrevealed Warlord against Borsalino. The last Warlord may be the key to defeating Kizaru. I'll go with a toss up. 

As for the second scenario, Admirals win with about high difficulty being my guess.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

@ Amol
Never said Akainu's Haki is miles above Aokiji's, but without a doubt, his Haki is stronger, as that was what allowed him to avoid Marco and Vista's ambush.


Extravlad said:


> The new warlord got his ass beaten by Zephyr he's nowhere near admiral lvl.


Do you have a link for that? I've been trying to find it.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 17, 2014)

I think that was said in the Anime, But all i remember is New shichibukai or some random guy defeating everyone on Z's ship including Z himself (who was an Admiral not so out of his prime) and took his arm


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> The new warlord got his ass beaten by Zephyr he's nowhere near admiral lvl.
> Kizaru murder the shichibukai, none of them is toptier but Mihawk and he's not included in this fight.
> 
> As for the C3 against all the shichibukai, well again only Mihawk is a threat, Akainu can fight him while the 2 others admirals murderstomp dem fodders.


Where was it said the new warlord got his ass beat by Zephyr?


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## Extravlad (Sep 17, 2014)

Z's Life (Volume Z)



[Age 14]
Z entered the Naval Academy. He wanted to be a hero.

[Age 18]
He took part in actual fighting for the first time.

[Age 28]
Z was promoted to petty officer. He mastered Rokushiki. He realized that Marine is not always a hero.

[Age 34]
He began to be called "Black Arm". He was the master of Armament haki.

[Age 38]
He was promoted to Admiral. Zephr was popular among his subordinates. Roger and Whitebeard were in their golden age at that time.

Z married.

[Age 39]
Z's son was born.

[Age 42]
Z's family were killed by a pirate. Z intended to resign Marine, but higer officer persuaded him to stay Marine. Z became an instructor.

Akainu (age 23) and Kizaru (age 26) joined Marine. Both of them were already "Monsters".

[Age 44]
Aokiji (age 19) joined Marine.

[Age 50]
Z gave strict lessons to his disciples.

[Age 65]
A pirate cut Z's arm off.

[Age 70]
A Marine scientist gave "Battle Smasher" to Z.

[Age 73]
The pirate who had cut Z's arm off joined Shichibukai.

[Age 74]
Luffy beats Z.


It's from the BOOK 1000, it's also mentionned that the pirate who cut Z's arm got beaten up by him before and cried like a bitch for his life, Z allowed him to go because the pirate had a family waiting for him, but the guy took Z's arm.

We also know that he escaped from Impel Down lvl 6, so maybe Z defeated the guy again after he lost his arm or another marine captured him.

Got the NF's source :


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 17, 2014)

The dude cut off Z Arm and killed all of his subordinates besides Ain/Binz if i recall from the movie correctly, and he could easily have become stronger after the fact. 

Pleading for his life does not mean anything.


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## Amol (Sep 17, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> @ Amol
> Never said Akainu's Haki is miles above Aokiji's, but without a doubt, his Haki is stronger, as that was what allowed him to avoid Marco and Vista's ambush.



That is what contradicts your statements Issho.
Marco was comfortably able to Kick Aokiji .
Hence he has good enough haki.
But for some reason he failed to hit Akainu .
As I said earlier Jozu hit Aokiji. Does that mean he has same level of haki as Aokiji ?
Aokiji can mid diff him.
So either you think there is massive difference in between him and Aokiji in Haki(bigger than Aokiji and Jozu)
Or
Your someone-needs-same-level-of-haki-to-bypass-logia-defence argument is wrong.
You can't have both.
You* don't know *how Akainu survived that Marco + Vista ambush and you are using it as a fact in arguments.
I believe it was his DF mastery which allowed him to survive that attack.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Z's Life (Volume Z)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you.


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> The dude cut off Z Arm and killed all of his subordinates besides Ain/Binz if i recall from the movie correctly, and he could easily have become stronger after the fact.
> 
> Pleading for his life does not mean anything.


Except we don't know how much stronger he got, so until we see more from him, the Warlords aren't winning this.


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> It's from the BOOK 1000, it's also mentionned that the pirate who cut Z's arm got beaten up by him before and cried like a bitch for his life, Z allowed him to go because the pirate had a family waiting for him, but the guy took Z's arm.
> 
> We also know that he escaped from Impel Down lvl 6, so maybe Z defeated the guy again after he lost his arm or another marine captured him.
> 
> Got the NF's source :


Okay, so Z beat the 7th-Warlord once. But then later the 7th-Warlord came back and curb stomped Z and his entire crew. So why would Z still be considered stronger than the 7th-Warlord? Basically Z defeated 7th-Warlord early into his career, but 7th-Warlord got stronger than Z and came back taking revenge. As for getting imprisoned that tells us nothing. Prime-Shiki could beat an Admiral and he was also captured in Lv 6.



Issho D Tea said:


> Except we don't know how much stronger he got, so until we see more from him, the Warlords aren't winning this.


Do you really think that the Warlords could be in balance with the other great powers if they could be collectively stomped sans Mihawk by a single (and arguably the weakest) Admiral. Do you think DD would be acting this way around Fujitora, if Fujitora could stomp him as well as every other Warlord sans Mihawk at the same tim? Do you really think Kuzan would believe an Admiral was necessary to deal with DD, if 1 Admiral could collectively stomp all the Warlords sans Mihawk? I really just don't get this reasoning, like at all.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 17, 2014)

> Actually, yes, I do think that's the case, at least until Whitebeard gets bloodlusted.  It's guesswork, but I choose to believe it for now.


An absurd assertion. That means you believe Marco to be the WSM and not Whitebeard if you believe he's the only one on his crew able to consistently land hits on admirals.



> Or it's simply because your Haki needs to be close to your opponent's Haki in order to make them tangible.


Show me the panel where that is explicitly stated.



> *Law isn't on Doflamingo or Hancock's level. * Same goes for the other Warlords (Kuma, Buggy). And Kizaru can beat Doflamingo and Hancock.


That makes my case even stronger. If Law can stall Doflamingo* and *Fujitora for the amount of time that he did, it only strengthens the notion that 6 warlords could give a lone Kizaru a very hard time working together.



> Did you not see the AoE of YnK?


What about it? You act like it can't be blocked, redirected, dodged, etc etc.



> Marco and Jozu are still stronger than the M3, Jozu in particular has  one of the best strength feats in the manga, yet he was only able to  give Aokiji a little bloody lip. Saying that the M3 have shown feats  near that is just...


Crocodile was hit with the same exact attack was still able to continue fighting. That means that Brilliant Punk isn't nearly as devastating an attack as you seem to believe it is. While they aren't as physically strong as Jozu, it's not unreasonable to believe that characters like Doflamingo and Hancock can put out stronger attacks than Brilliant Punk.


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## Dunno (Sep 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Do you really think that the Warlords could be in balance with the other great powers if they could be collectively stomped sans Mihawk by a single (and arguably the weakest) Admiral. Do you think DD would be acting this way around Fujitora, if Fujitora could stomp him as well as every other Warlord sans Mihawk at the same tim? Do you really think Kuzan would believe an Admiral was necessary to deal with DD, if 1 Admiral could collectively stomp all the Warlords sans Mihawk? I really just don't get this reasoning, like at all.



Mihawk is a great power by himself, the others are just there for show.


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## Captain Altintop (Sep 17, 2014)

Mihawk alone could solo extreme diff. , but since he's restricted it will be more interesting.

I see in 1v1: 

Kizaru beats ...
... DD mid-high diff
... Hancock mid diff.
... Brain Kuma mid-low diff.
... Law mid-low diff.
... Moria zero diff.
... Buggy zero diff.

Teach, Jinbei and Croc are not included.


I can see Kizaru still beating all 6 Warlords together with *very high to extreme* diff.


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## TheWiggian (Sep 17, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> We've seen the M3, Law and Doflamingo use bigger attacks than what the Admirals were hit with in the war.



So? 



Louis-954 said:


> Like I told Issho earlier:
> 
> 1. Either Akainu's Haki is* immeasurably *above that of Aokiji's and Kizaru's (lol)
> 
> ...



It doesnt matter which one makes more sense to me since neither Marco or Vista managed to hurt an admiral properly.



Louis-954 said:


> So what you're saying is that in *every* instance where a character has fought without using named attacks is that all of them were serious  *except Fujitora? *:rofl :rofl :rofl



It depends on Oda why he gives some attacks names and others not.




Louis-954 said:


> Show me the panel where he's shown to be able to fire millions of them.





It is maybe not a million but by far more as Law ever redirected or can redirect.



Louis-954 said:


> The *fact* remains that she brought him to his knees. Whether or not he was permitted to attack her afterwards doesn't matter because the feat had* already been achieved.
> *


*

Bringing someone to the knees is different as beating someone and completely outclassing someone.

*


Louis-954 said:


> The point is that he can hold his own just fine in a war chalk full of people stronger than pre-ts Luffy.



Hahahaha but how much stronger, u can start a powerlvl calculation if u want now.



Louis-954 said:


> What does this have to do with anything that we're talking about? I could care less if every other woman in the series was chapter 1 Nami level, that doesn't change the fact that Hancock is powerful.



Because there r almost none. So its not that hard to become one ^^


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## Louis-954 (Sep 17, 2014)

> It doesnt matter which one makes more sense to me since neither Marco or Vista managed to hurt an admiral properly.


You won't answer it because you know you'll sound silly by saying Akainu's Haki is immeasurably above Aokiji's, but you're also too proud to admit that the more logical conclusion is that Akainu simply slipped around their attacks. I accept your concession.



> It depends on Oda why he gives some attacks names and others not.


Once again you're too proud to admit the flaws in your logic so you avoid my question entirely.



> It is maybe not a million but by far more as Law ever redirected or can redirect.


Law doesn't need to redirect them all. It's an AOE attack so a lot of them won't even be aimed at him anyway. He can also dodge and has Hancock, Doflamingo and Kuma to help block the attack. Why do I keep on having to remind you and Issho that Law/Doflamingo are not fighting this battle alone?



> * Bringing someone to the knees is different as beating someone and completely outclassing someone.*


If Hancock weren't in another league, she wouldn't have been able to bring Momonga to his knees so easily.



> Hahahaha but how much stronger, u can start a powerlvl calculation if u want now.


So you admit he's above pre-ts Luffy now. Looks like I'm making progress.



> Because there r almost none. So its not that hard to become one ^^


You just contradicted yourself. If there are almost no strong females in the series, then common sense dictates that it is hard to become one of the few elite who can hang with the men. But again, what bearing does character gender have on this debate? It's irrelevant.


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## RF (Sep 17, 2014)

Nearly 2 years on the forum and I've yet to see what justifies the premise that logias evading attacks equals superior haki.

As for the fight the Shichis take it. Too much haxx and varying abilities along with individuals like Doflamingo who can compete with Kizaru on their own. With the new Warlord who seems to be admiral level-ish they'd probably stomp him.


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## Amol (Sep 17, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Nearly 2 years on the forum and I've yet to see what justifies the premise that logias evading attacks equals superior haki.



Fanfiction.
It is only reasoning so far.
Akainu is for some reason is so special that the ones who can bypass Aokiji's logia defence can't bypass Akainu's (Conveniently forgetting that Aokiji evaded WB's attack using his DF mastery).
Akainu probably has 2 times greater Haki than Aokiji.


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## Ruse (Sep 17, 2014)

This thread is hilarious

S1: Warlords edge it
S2: Admirals win


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## TheWiggian (Sep 17, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> You won't answer it because you know you'll sound silly by saying Akainu's Haki is immeasurably above Aokiji's, but you're also too proud to admit that the more logical conclusion is that Akainu simply slipped around their attacks. I accept your concession.



Assume it as u please.



Louis-954 said:


> Once again you're too proud to admit the flaws in your logic so you avoid my question entirely.



There is no real explanation for named and unnamed attacks. I can admit that named attacks *mostly (not always)* got more power, but nothing more and nothing less.



Louis-954 said:


> Law doesn't need to redirect them all. It's an AOE attack so a lot of them won't even be aimed at him anyway. He can also dodge and has Hancock, Doflamingo and Kuma to help block the attack. Why do I keep on having to remind you and Issho that Law/Doflamingo are not fighting this battle alone?



Even if Law dodges the lasers, theyll still be hit by the explosions the lasers do.




Louis-954 said:


> If Hancock weren't in another league, she wouldn't have been able to bring Momonga to his knees so easily.



She still didnt beat him. U can interpret it in any way u want.




Louis-954 said:


> So you admit he's above pre-ts Luffy now. Looks like I'm making progress.



First of all i never stated he was below him thats why u make no progress at all.



Louis-954 said:


> You just contradicted yourself. If there are almost no strong females in the series, then common sense dictates that it is hard to become one of the few elite who can hang with the men. But again, what bearing does character gender have on this debate? It's irrelevant.



Not rlly u can interpret it in different ways, like u see Hancock and others see Hancock since shes basically featless and wont be an arc villian anyway. Its not hard to be a powerful woman since there r not many around anyway.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 17, 2014)

> *There is no real explanation for named and unnamed attacks.* I can admit that named attacks mostly (not always) got more power, but nothing more and nothing less.


Then why are you (Or was it Issho?) trying to argue that Fujitora wasn't serious because he wasn't using named attacks?



> Even if Law dodges the lasers, theyll still be hit by the explosions the lasers do.


A casual admiral attack isn't polishing off 6 warlords.



> She still didnt beat him. U can interpret it in any way u want.


Luffy didn't beat up Senor Pink and Machvise either after they attacked him. I guess that means we'll never know who is stronger.



> First of all i never stated he was below him thats why u make no progress at all.


You said he could only fight pre-ts Luffy opponents.



> *Not rlly u can interpret it in different ways*, like u see Hancock and  others see Hancock since shes basically featless and wont be an arc  villian anyway. *Its not hard to be a powerful woman since there r not  many around anyway.*


No you can't. It is *hard* to reach post-ts M3+ level no matter who you are or what your gender is.


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## Valdie (Sep 17, 2014)

Bonney's also probably around current M3. So that's another strong woman right there. There are really probably only about ~30 people stronger than Luffy/Hancock in the world at this point, maybe even less. For anybody to get on that level is impressive, male or female. Hancock isn't strong just because almost every other woman on the planet is fodder/civilian level, she's strong because almost every pirate/marine is weaker than her, simple as that.


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## TheWiggian (Sep 17, 2014)

Valdie said:


> Bonney's also probably around current M3. So that's another strong woman right there. There are really probably only about ~30 people stronger than Luffy/Hancock in the world at this point, maybe even less. For anybody to get on that level is impressive, male or female. Hancock isn't strong just because almost every other woman on the planet is fodder/civilian level, she's strong because almost every pirate/marine is weaker than her, simple as that.



East Blue strawhats can fuck over most fodder pirates and marines so whats the point of it?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 17, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> An absurd assertion. That means you believe Marco to be the WSM and not Whitebeard if you believe he's the only one on his crew able to consistently land hits on admirals.


Having better Haki (at least until Whitebeard got bloodlusted) = you're stronger than someone else? Huh, you better tell that to the Boa Sisters, having better Haki didn't stop them from having their asses kicked.


Louis-954 said:


> Show me the panel where that is explicitly stated.


I already did for multiple occasions that it happened. 


Louis-954 said:


> That makes my case even stronger. If Law can stall Doflamingo* and *Fujitora for the amount of time that he did, it only strengthens the notion that 6 warlords could give a lone Kizaru a very hard time working together.


Not really. If they actually were serious, they would have flat out steamrolled Law.


Louis-954 said:


> What about it? You act like it can't be blocked, redirected, dodged, etc etc.


There are hundreds of bolts, each capable of making a massive explosion, so good luck dodging them all. Already commented on Law's powers.


Louis-954 said:


> Crocodile was hit with the same exact attack was still able to continue fighting. That means that Brilliant Punk isn't nearly as devastating an attack as you seem to believe it is.


Outlier, kemo sabe.


Louis-954 said:


> While they aren't as physically strong as Jozu, it's not unreasonable to believe that characters like Doflamingo and Hancock can put out stronger attacks than Brilliant Punk.


Show feats that prove it or GTFO.


Heavenly Demon said:


> This thread is hilarious


Ditto.


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## Kaiser (Sep 17, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Nearly 2 years on the forum and I've yet to see what justifies the premise that logias evading attacks equals superior haki.


I don't believe in the superior haki thing(something that doesn't even make sense) as well. But just to avoid useless debates i don't try to explain my points anymore(i tried it too much without success).


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## Amol (Sep 18, 2014)

I see* Issho *forget to address Haki argument.
Should I accept your concession Issho?


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## UrMumSmellsLike (Sep 18, 2014)

Warlords take both scenarios:

Scenario 1: Kizaru vs *Doffy, Boa, Kuma, Law, Buggy* - mid diff
Scenario 2: Akainu, Aojiji, Kizaru vs *Mihawk, Doffy, Kuma, Boa, Crocodile, Jinbe, Gecko Moriah, Law, Buggy, Blackbeard* - mid diff

Mihawk himself is admiral level. So that leaves 2 admirals vs 9 warlords. The new warlord could my Makino lvl, theres still no chance the admirals win this


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## Dunno (Sep 18, 2014)

Well, Haki allows you to hit a logia's true body. If you have Haki and you fail to hit a logia's true body, then there has to be some reason. Either you are not using Haki, or your Haki is negated in some way by your opponent's Haki, or the logia user predicted exactly where you were going to strike and split their body beforehand. If someone can come up with another explanation, then please share it.

In Aokiji's case against WB, I think it was the latter case. He made a hole in his stomach that the bisento could go through. Akainu on the other hand was hit by surprise, so he shouldn't have time to do something like that. Either Marco and Vista were so shaken up from losing Ace and WB that they weren't able to use Haki at that exact point, or Akainu counteracted their Haki with his own. This is of course not 100% certain, but it's the best hypothesis I've seen according to me. Until it's better explained, I'm going with it.


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## wjames260 (Sep 18, 2014)

Law is not a warlord anymore. Seventh warlord is too mysterious to bother with. Buggy contributes nothing exceot as a last survivor. 

Kizaru is used to Kumas lasers and should be familiar with his modifications. Hancock wont bother with close combat fighting and shoots at him from afar(assuming mero mero mellow does not work). Dolfamingo and his clone double team kizaru. And Kumo teleports behind and tries to blast him three days away. If that plan fails or one of those three gets taken down then Kizaru wins. I think he wins most of the time.


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## Turrin (Sep 18, 2014)

Dunno said:


> Mihawk is a great power by himself, the others are just there for show.


So your saying Mihawk can take an entire Yonko Crew and all of their allies; or the entire Marines by himself? I can buy Mihawk being as strong as Akainu or as strong as a Yonko, but no way he can carry the Warlords by himself.


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## trance (Sep 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So your saying Mihawk can take an entire Yonko Crew and all of their allies; or 3 Admirals & the FA by himself? I can buy Mihawk being as strong as Akainu or as strong as a Yonko, but no way he can carry the Warlords by himself.



He's obviously being sarcastic.


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## Suit (Sep 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Minus Mihawk.
> 
> Location: Marineford
> Distance: 50m
> ...



Scenario 1: Here's a hint: 

Scenario 2: Admirals stomp so fucking hard. Like so hard that you wouldn't even believe.


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