# Booker Dewitt and Elizabeth vs Subject Delta and Eleanor Lamb(read op)



## Aphelion (Sep 18, 2013)

This is pre Siphon destruction Elizabeth obviously.

Telekinesis 3 and Undertow are restricted.

Takes place in New York City.


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## manidk (Sep 18, 2013)

Delta and Lamb should take it.

Fairly certain that the speed and power that they showed was above most of what the Infinite team is capable of.

Being "Bigs" they should also have better durability.


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## Benjaminsen (Sep 18, 2013)

Are the vigors fully upgraded?

A fully upgraded Charge and Return to Sender is too much for Delta/Eleanor. (If not, Return to Sender can still edge this quite handily for Booker.)
And a shield that regens every short period of time is great, too.


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## Aphelion (Sep 18, 2013)

Yeah, both teams get their best stuff.

I wouldn't say "too much", drill dash with drill upgrades is pretty formidable and I don't think return to sender will work on plasmids.


I don't recall any particularly impressive speed feats from 2, could you jog my memory?


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## Benjaminsen (Sep 18, 2013)

EntangledHive said:


> Yeah, both teams get their best stuff.
> 
> I wouldn't say "too much", drill dash with drill upgrades is pretty formidable and I don't think return to sender will work on plasmids.
> 
> ...



Actually, Return to Sender can absorb the attacks from a Handyman and Fireman.

With the handyman using some sort of Shock Jockey + Smashing the ground (which you think wouldn't be absorbed, but it is.) and the Fireman's Devil's Kiss vigor.

So, Plasmids wouldn't be a problem

Not sure what you mean by "2"

But...the Charge is pretty quick, and all Booker would need to do is Charge, use his powerful weapons until Charge invincibility wears off, tank some more damage using the magnetic shield, then repeat.

OR, he could use his fully upgraded Return to Sender to collect ammo from Delta while tossing back his damage.

If Gear is allowed, it's even more of a stomp for Booker.


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## Aphelion (Sep 18, 2013)

I was talking to Mandik, sorry and I meant 2 as in Bioshock 2


Actually I don?t think charge is that good of an idea, the invincibility really doesn?t last long at all and both Delta and Lamb have superior melee capabilities to booker, I don?t think return to sender can block melee.

....Gear is useful but Delta also has his tonics which provide similar combat bonuses.

You really aren?t giving Delta and Lamb enough credit, imo this fight is a toss up.


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## Benjaminsen (Sep 18, 2013)

EntangledHive said:


> I was talking to Mandik, sorry and I meant 2 as in Bioshock 2
> 
> 
> Actually I don?t think charge is that good of an idea, the invincibility really doesn?t last long at all and both Delta and Lamb have superior melee capabilities to booker, I don?t think return to sender can block melee.
> ...



Yes, Return to Sender blocks ALL form of damage, vigors, guns, melee, anything.

Also, since you forgot to ALSO restrict possession, that's also another edging in the favors of Booker/Liz.

I'm not saying Delta/Eleanor get completely get stomped, but vigors and gear were shown to be pretty much above that of plasmids.

Realistically, look at it like this.

All it takes is for Booker to just Charge with Burning Halo and Brittle-Skinned equipped, and spam Volley Gun.


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## Aphelion (Sep 19, 2013)

Benjaminsen said:


> Yes, Return to Sender blocks ALL form of damage, vigors, guns, melee, anything.
> 
> Also, since you forgot to ALSO restrict possession, that's also another edging in the favors of Booker/Liz.
> 
> ...



Aha, never knew that, always assumed it wouldn't work 

Anyways booker has limited salts and he can't use other attacks simultaniously so it's still doesn't guarantee victory. 

You're forgetting that goes for both sides, Hypnotize and all.  Though you're right I probably should have restricted them both as well since getting a hit with posessions/hypnotize is pretty much an auto win for either side.

Really?  Freezing Drill+Elemental Storm+Drill Vampire packs quite a punch, Camouflage also comes handy in a pinch.  Vigors are maybe a bit more versitile 

Keep in mind that even with his shield Booker is a good bit less durable than delta(Booker is a peak human while while Delta is a superhuman grafted into an Iron suit) so Delta could take some abuse, all the while Eleanor is warping around blasting him with fireballs/random shit lying on the ground.  You're also forgeting about cyclone trap, which would allow Delta to keep Booker at a distance if he decided to spam charge.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 19, 2013)

EntangledHive said:


> Aha, never knew that, always assumed it wouldn't work
> 
> Anyways booker has limited salts and he can't use other attacks simultaniously so it's still doesn't guarantee victory.
> 
> ...





I always thought Booker had superhuman durability because of the abuse he took from Songbird.
[youtube]7J8_3IsLaxA[/youtube]


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## Benjaminsen (Sep 19, 2013)

EntangledHive said:


> Aha, never knew that, always assumed it wouldn't work
> 
> Anyways booker has limited salts and he can't use other attacks simultaniously so it's still doesn't guarantee victory.
> 
> ...



Elemental storm and such is good, but I'll explain the OP combo Booker can dish out.

He can get his Charge fully up, then launch at delta at speeds far faster than he'd probably know how to deal with, he'd get brief invincibility, burning halo would set delta on fire, brittle skin would let Booker deal 2x damage for a couple seconds, and volley gun is fast reload time, fast launching time, and very powerful.

That's a combo that can take down the likes of a handyman even on 1999 mode in a very short time, while receiving little to no damage.


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## IdioticGamer (Sep 19, 2013)

If bees affected a Big Daddy, then can the Murder of Crows harm Subject Delta?


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## zTundra (Sep 19, 2013)

IdioticGamer said:


> If bees affected a Big Daddy, then can the Murder of Crows harm Subject Delta?



I don't think that crows can harm someone in a big daddy suit. It would only them disctrated by the crows.

Anyway, most people here are forgetting that since they are fighting in NY, Elizabeth can open a tear and throw a car at 80km/h right at Subject Delta.


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## Agent of Chaos (Sep 19, 2013)

Whut, Return to Sender does not stop all sorts of damage, an RPG will get through it and so will a Handyman in Melee. I've played the game and have been on receiving end of both types of attacks while using Return to Sender. Hell the wiki even states its only good for bullets/small projectiles. 



As for possession it's not really a problem when both Eleanor/Delta both have Hypnotize which means they can break each other out off possession or just turn Elizabeth/Dewitt against each other without any fear.

 Also for the Crows harming a Big Daddy/Sister that would only work if they were capable of hurting other big guys like Handy Man/Motorized Patriot. Which if I remember they don't, so Bees should be the ones murdering the Crows humorously enough. And he has Security Bots as extra back up if he so wishes. 

As for Speed, Dewitt was never faster than a Big Sister which Delta was able to react to by end game. As for elemental attacks Delta has the various resistant tonics for it, and New York has Fire Hydrants so he should be virtually immortal thanks to Fountain of Youth healing him while he's by water, even puddles.


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## Benjaminsen (Sep 19, 2013)

Agent of Chaos said:


> Whut, Return to Sender does not stop all sorts of damage, an RPG will get through it and so will a Handyman in Melee. I've played the game and have been on receiving end of both types of attacks while using Return to Sender. Hell the wiki even states its only good for bullets/small projectiles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've played Bioshock Infinite multiple times, it definitely blocks all form of damage.

Murder of Crows is pretty ineffective, but could definitely stun the likes of Eleanor while Booker takes down Delta.

As I've already mentioned, Brittle-Skinned, Burning Halo, Volley Gun and a fully upgraded Charge is more than enough to either kill Delta, or make him use nearly all health packs he may have.

Let's assume he does have a fountain, Booker has more than enough of a weapon capacity to take down more health than Delta's getting.

Elizabeth can also toss Booker Health Packs and Salts in a very short time, so Salts is not a problem.

Next time you play Clash in the Clouds (More useful to see this.), try the Charge combo and you'll realize just how OP it truly is.


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## Agent of Chaos (Sep 19, 2013)

Benjaminsen said:


> I've played Bioshock Infinite multiple times, it definitely blocks all form of damage.
> 
> Murder of Crows is pretty ineffective, but could definitely stun the likes of Eleanor while Booker takes down Delta.
> 
> ...



Currently I don't have Clash in the Clouds (Saving money for Burial at Sea Part 1 and 2), anyways I just redid the battle for the Siphon and in it I tried Return to Sender on the Rocketeers and it neither absorbed the damage, and it still fucked me up, so is their a way to block it/absorb the RPG exactly because I was facing them directly.

Another thing, I fail to see how Eleanor would be affected by the Crows since a Big Sister Suit should be as durable as a Handy Man at the very least.


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## Benjaminsen (Sep 19, 2013)

Agent of Chaos said:


> Currently I don't have Clash in the Clouds (Saving money for Burial at Sea Part 1 and 2), anyways I just redid the battle for the Siphon and in it I tried Return to Sender on the Rocketeers and it neither absorbed the damage, and it still fucked me up, so is their a way to block it/absorb the RPG exactly because I was facing them directly.
> 
> Another thing, I fail to see how Eleanor would be affected by the Crows since a Big Sister Suit should be as durable as a Handy Man at the very least.


Strange, me and a ton of other people have it so it absorbs all damage. I don't know why that's happening.

I never said that the Murder of Crows would defeat Eleanor, I said it would stun her. As it works on individuals like the Handyman, which he could use as time to defeat Delta and then finish of Eleanor.


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## Agent of Chaos (Sep 19, 2013)

Benjaminsen said:


> Strange, me and a ton of other people have it so it absorbs all damage. I don't know why that's happening.
> 
> I never said that the Murder of Crows would defeat Eleanor, I said it would stun her. As it works on individuals like the Handyman, which he could use as time to defeat Delta and then finish of Eleanor.



Well I have no idea what is happening then, so I guess we'll just disagree on that for now. 

As for the Crows I don't think its a valid stun method, I mean the Big Sisters don't flinch against Turret Fire or the Bees like the Spider Splicers and other mooks do (Might be misremembering since I haven't played it  in a while). And she has the swirling inferno around her more than half the time. 

Personally I see it as an uphill battle for Dewitt since he'd be facing an agile opponent in the form of Eleanor and a tank in the form of Delta and both should be tough fights for him. Especially if they have 6 turrets and multiple swarms of bees going at the same time, while hitting each other to regen/Fountain of Youth.

Actually the turrets would be really helpful to Dewitt as ammo for Return to Sender now that I think about it


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## manidk (Sep 19, 2013)

So far as I know, Return To Sender only restocks your ammo if the opponent's weapon is the same as yours.

That's how it works for me at least.


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## Benjaminsen (Sep 19, 2013)

Agent of Chaos said:


> Well I have no idea what is happening then, so I guess we'll just disagree on that for now.
> 
> As for the Crows I don't think its a valid stun method, I mean the Big Sisters don't flinch against Turret Fire or the Bees like the Spider Splicers and other mooks do (Might be misremembering since I haven't played it  in a while). And she has the swirling inferno around her more than half the time.
> 
> ...



I think it is, it was capable of stunning a Handyman. Which is one of the strongest if not the strongest enemy in bioshock (excluding characters like Songbird.).

Also, Eleanor's armor appears to be less...strong than a Big Sister. I recall a big sister having a very metallic armor while Eleanor had a more fabric looking armor.

Once again, the charge combo makes him nigh-invincible. So, the turrets and bees are realistically non-factor here.


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## Agent of Chaos (Sep 19, 2013)

Benjaminsen said:


> I think it is, it was capable of stunning a Handyman. Which is one of the strongest if not the strongest enemy in bioshock (excluding characters like Songbird.).
> 
> Also, Eleanor's armor appears to be less...strong than a Big Sister. I recall a big sister having a very metallic armor while Eleanor had a more fabric looking armor.
> 
> Once again, the charge combo makes him nigh-invincible. So, the turrets and bees are realistically non-factor here.



Still doesn't change the fact that the Turrets would be a great boon for DeWitt and since this is a Blood Lust match per OBD rules he'd probably get the biggest hit in first. How long can he keep the combo up anyway?


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## Benjaminsen (Sep 20, 2013)

Agent of Chaos said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that the Turrets would be a great boon for DeWitt and since this is a Blood Lust match per OBD rules he'd probably get the biggest hit in first. How long can he keep the combo up anyway?


I'm guessing he has max salts, I don't know how many times he can use it with max salts, but it's quite a lot.

Burning Halo would damage Eleanor if she's near, but on contact with Delta it would deal 300 points of damage over 4 seconds (This does has a down side as it has a 30% chance of not working, but it should work after a good deal of times, though.)

Volley Gun deals about 580-820 points of damage, 820 is point blank, and Charge puts him in such a situation. So..

Brittle-skinned making 820 x2 makes that 1,640 points of damage. Making it a total of 1,940 damage (Not including base damage for Charge, which is some random number I don't know, but it definitely brings it over 2,000.)

So, 2,000+ damage spam + invincibility is too much for Delta and Eleanor.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 20, 2013)

Portal cuts, portal cuts everywhere


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## Aphelion (Sep 20, 2013)

Benjaminsen said:


> I'm guessing he has max salts, I don't know how many times he can use it with max salts, but it's quite a lot.
> 
> Burning Halo would damage Eleanor if she's near, but on contact with Delta it would deal 300 points of damage over 4 seconds (This does has a down side as it has a 30% chance of not working, but it should work after a good deal of times, though.)
> 
> ...



Points are just arbitrary values assigned to weapons.  It's 100% a gameplay mechanic, not applicable here. Invincibility lasts for what, two seconds?  That still leaves him succepatable to things like cyclone trap and winter blast.  A much better choice for booker would be electric touch as fire DOT attacks really are not effective on big daddy type enemy.


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## Agent of Chaos (Sep 20, 2013)

EntangledHive said:


> Points are just arbitrary values assigned to weapons.  It's 100% a gameplay mechanic, not applicable here. Invincibility lasts for what, two seconds?  That still leaves him succepatable to things like cyclone trap and winter blast.  A much better choice for booker would be electric touch as fire DOT attacks really are not effective on big daddy type enemy.



That would be the worst elemental attack to use since Electric Flesh makes Delta not only immune to electricity but thanks to both Electrical Storm/Elemental Sponge he'd be inflicting heavy electric damage back to DeWitt and/or regaining lost Eve. It's safer to go with fire honestly even if it empowers him as well.


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