# Zoro vs Pre Udon Luffy



## ice demon slayer (Feb 9, 2021)

In character 
Location : Wano
No prep
No knowledge 
Who wins ? 
Current Zoro with Enma


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## Moldrew (Feb 9, 2021)

Enma hasn’t made Zoro any faster, so I’d still go with Luffy.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## muchentuchen (Feb 9, 2021)

If Zoro is  > post pirate king Luffy then Zoro >> pre wonton Luffy.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Mylesime (Feb 9, 2021)

It's a close one.
At this very minute *tough....Zoro has not yet fully mastered Enma. That's a game changer. *
  Which will be the case at the end of the arc, since he needs to grow in order to be effective against Kaido and badly hurt him before Luffy takes his turn.
One other important factor, Luffy trained specifically to bypass Kaido's durability, advanced armement increases his damage output and defense to some extent,  but it's not that significant against a fighter like Zoro with no abnormal durability, it wasn't required against Doflamingo nor Katakuri.
Luffy high/extreme diff


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## Dunno (Feb 9, 2021)

Zoro takes it comfortably. If this was current Luffy, it would be more of a match.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Corax (Feb 9, 2021)

Big difference between pre and post Udon. Post Udon avoids Bagua in base and in G3 can damage Kaido. Pre Udon was defeated by Bagua and even in G4 couldn't do much. Zoro takes this comfortably.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Beast (Feb 9, 2021)

Luffy lower end of high diff 
He is still way too fast/ too strong and too powerful for Zoro, Enma helps with his attack against someone that’s just eating attacks... Luffy will knock him out before Zoro lands a clean hit tbh.

Reactions: Like 3


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## NotTommy (Feb 9, 2021)

Luffy still has Future Sight (which he didn't use all that well against Kaido the first time due to him not being in the right state of mind), is still faster and is still stronger. I give it to him until we see what Zoro can do without anyone else's assistance. Zoro has the means to take out Luffy but I don't think he takes the win.

Reactions: Agree 9


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## TheWiggian (Feb 9, 2021)

Meh. Pretty sure Luffy will run out of steam and has to wait to recharge Haki first, that will be moment when he loses.

Reactions: Like 1


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## maupp (Feb 13, 2021)

Until Luffy fixes his 10 minutes breaks, Zoro will keep bodying him.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 13, 2021)

Luffy high to extreme diff. There's no need for Luffy to burn out his Haki like he did against Kaidou. Zoro has nowhere near Kaidous level of durability. When Luffy reverted from G4 against Katakuri, he could still run and use gears. If Luffy uses G2 to run and recharge Zoro ain't catching up. Couldn't even catch up to Pica without outside help.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 13, 2021)

I think Zoro wins here cause of the 10 minutes thing and tbh I dont see Luffy putting him down before that

An high diff fight

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Captain Altintop (Feb 13, 2021)

Depends really on Zoro's growth in terms of his base stats.

I'd say it could go either way.


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## OG sama (Feb 13, 2021)

Luffy definitely wins

And it’s pretty interesting that the same people that had Katakuri beating Zoro in another thread are trying to tell me that the same Luffy that beat Katakuri an arc ago is weaker than the Current Zoro....

Like how bias can some of y’all be?? How in the hell does Zoro deal with FS from Luffy or G4’s power and speed??

Pre Udon Luffy should still be > Current Zoro especially if Katakuri is still > Zoro

Reactions: Agree 4


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## convict (Feb 13, 2021)

Going with Zoro. He clearly has what it takes to defend against Gear 4 with his reaction time. And he clearly has what it takes to hurt Luffy. It will be a slug fest but he outlasts G4 and takes the W.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## A Optimistic (Feb 13, 2021)

Pre-Udon Luffy can only use Gear 4th for 10 minutes and couldn't damage Kaido, meanwhile current Zoro can fight for longer than 10 mins and get passed Kaido scales...and somehow people have concluded Luffy wins?



Zoro wins with low difficulty. Any other reply is outright trolling and denying what was shown in the manga which is what the OL loves to do.

Reactions: Like 8 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 13, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Luffy definitely wins
> 
> And it’s pretty interesting that the same people that had Katakuri beating Zoro in another thread are trying to tell me that the same Luffy that beat Katakuri an arc ago is weaker than the Current Zoro....
> 
> ...


Well from what I can tell from what most are saying they think Luffy would win if he could stay in G4 indefinitely. But the time limit and 10 minutes without Haki that are unique to G4 give Luffy a big weakness that could be exploited.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Karma (Feb 13, 2021)

Zoro should Win.

He can outlast G4.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Maruo (Feb 13, 2021)

G4’s time limit is not even close to the only thing that matters here. It remains to be proven whether Zoro can handle G2/G3’s FS. People need to stop pretending that G2/G3 doesn't exist.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2021)

Maruo said:


> G4’s time limit is not even close to the only thing that matters here. It remains to be proven whether Zoro can handle G2/G3’s FS. People need to stop pretending that G2/G3 doesn't exist.


Well during those 10 minutes Luffy can’t use Haki Luffy would be unable to use FS in combination with G2 since he can’t use any Haki to be fair. And G3 (at least unless stacked with G2 like with Red Roc) is so slow his fist could end up being a big target  for a slash.

If when G4 ran out and he wasn’t unable to use Haki for the cool-down period it’d be a lot less detrimental.


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## Maruo (Feb 14, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Well during those 10 minutes Luffy can’t use Haki Luffy would be unable to use FS in combination with G2 since he can’t use any Haki to be fair. And G3 (at least unless stacked with G2 like with Red Roc) is so slow his fist could end up being a big target  for a slash.
> 
> If when G4 ran out and he wasn’t unable to use Haki for the cool-down period it’d be a lot less detrimental.


Luffy doesn’t necessarily need to start out in G4 or stay in G4 long enough to reach his time limit. Luffy's attack power would decrease in G2/G3, but his FS would make it much harder for Zoro to land attacks while making it easier for Luffy to land his.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Well from what I can tell from what most are saying they think Luffy would win if he could stay in G4 indefinitely. But the time limit and 10 minutes without Haki that are unique to G4 give Luffy a big weakness that could be exploited.


I can see that sort of, but if Luffy can figure out a way to still beat Katakuri despite the time limit of G4 why exactly wouldn’t that be the same for against Zoro, especially if Zoro is weaker?

Man see this is why I make such a big fucking fuss about G4’s time limit.

It’s got fans believing that Luffys own first mate can beat him, like he’s got a dumb ass restriction on his fruit that nobody else has and it has handicapped the fuck out of him.


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## xenos5 (Feb 14, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Luffy doesn’t necessarily need to start out in G4 or stay in G4 long enough to reach his time limit. Luffy's attack power would decrease in G2/G3, but his FS would make it much harder for Zoro to land attacks while making it easier for Luffy to land his.



Can Luffy even do that? Deactivate G4 early, I mean. If he could do that to avoid the 10 minute without Haki penalty I feel like we would’ve seen that exploit earlier...



OG sama said:


> I can see that sort of, * but if Luffy can figure out a way to still beat Katakuri despite the time limit of G4 why exactly wouldn’t that be the same for against Zoro, especially if Zoro is weaker?*
> 
> 
> Man see this is why I make such a big fucking fuss about G4’s time limit.
> ...


For the bold I would just say that in the Katakuri fight PIS (Brûlée being placed right where he needed her to be) helped him escape so he wouldn’t have to deal with Katakuri while in that weakened state for 10 minutes. It’s not like he was just able to run away from Katakuri the entire time with Katakuri not catching him, he had to pretty much leave the dimension Katakuri was in leaving him trapped.

You can’t really count on sheer dumb luck like that in a VS thread which wouldn’t include plot influence.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Can Luffy even do that? Deactivate G4 early, I mean. If he could do that to avoid the 10 minute without Haki penalty I feel like we would’ve seen that exploit earlier...
> 
> 
> For the bold I would just say that in the Katakuri fight PIS (Brûlée being placed right where he needed her to be) helped him escape so he wouldn’t have to deal with Katakuri while in that weakened state for 10 minutes. It’s not like he was just able to run away from Katakuri the entire time with Katakuri not catching him, he had to pretty much leave the dimension Katakuri was in leaving him trapped.
> ...


Not really sure why I asked you that as if I didn’t already know the answer....

Under battledome conditions Luffy can’t really win this fight by running away, and if you have to run away that kinda already constitutes a loss.

Only thing I can say is that if he starts in G2 and G3 he might have a chance, despite this version of him also not even having Advanced Armament, FS should still allow him to dodge attacks from Zoro as well as counter attack before needing to go in G4 to begin with. How this whole sequence of events plays out is up to anyone to decide, Zoro could easily trounce G2/G3 Luffy as of WCI for all i know, those forms aren’t good without Armament so who knows if they do much at all to Zoro.


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 14, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Can Luffy even do that? Deactivate G4 early, I mean. If he could do that to avoid the 10 minute without Haki penalty I feel like we would’ve seen that exploit earlier...


He should be able to deactivate G4. We've seen it earlier this arc where he only stayed in G4 momentarily without suffering the drawbacks of haki depletion .  There's no reason why he can't except for plot reasons. Neither G2 or G3 forces him to maintain that state longer than he needs to, either.  

Even without it, he can was still able to run and use gears when his G4 ran out against Katakuri. That Luffy can do this after G4 runs out was implied by Oda in an interview about how he would've dealt with Doflamingo differently if he was on his own.  That's really all it takes to keep his distance for 10 minutes in this matchup. Meaning as long as some condition is met (ie. not using haki excessively), he can avoid becoming completely limp. Keep in mind that Luffy fought Katakuri for hours.

Reactions: Like 3


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> He should be able to deactivate G4. We've seen it earlier this arc where he only stayed in G4 momentarily without suffering the drawbacks of haki depletion .  There's no reason why he can't except for plot reasons. Neither G2 or G3 forces him to maintain that state longer than he needs to, either.
> 
> Even without it, he can was still able to run and use gears when his G4 ran out against Katakuri. That Luffy can do this after G4 runs out was implied by Oda in an interview about how he would've dealt with Doflamingo differently if he was on his own.  That's really all it takes to keep his distance for 10 minutes in this matchup. Meaning as long as some condition is met (ie. not using haki excessively), he can avoid becoming completely limp. Keep in mind that Luffy fought Katakuri for hours.


So in other words Luffy is being massively nerfed by the plot right now. Oda is even breaking his own statements to nerf Luffy for tension purposes.


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## Fel1x (Feb 14, 2021)

ok
I can answer like that:
let's remember first Luffy vs Kaido fight. In my opinion, this fight was so quick only because Kaido has the speed to insta blitz Luffy. otherwise, Kaido wouldn't win this fight so quick, because Luffy would simply dodge some of Kaido's hits

let's say Zoro's current best move has the same power as Kaido's Thunder Bagua. but he doesn't have the speed of Kaido and his durability. this means Luffy will outspeed him and his attacks would do massive damage to Zoro. he doesn't need ACoA to damage Zoro

what Zoro can even do against for example Snakeman? but forget Snakeman, basic G4 is enough to outspeed Zoro completely

I don't say that Zoro is slow, feats prove otherwise, but he isn't as fast as it should be against Luffy

so the winner is Luffy

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 14, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> In character
> Location : Wano
> No prep
> No knowledge
> ...


Luffy

G4 uses too much haki so does Enma so yeah.

G4 is not needed bar finishers for Zoro.

Zoro best attacks missed Kaido's huge dragon form while Luffy dodged Katakuri for hours before FS now he can dodged kaido in base tanks to FS and not any attack but his fastest to this day and keep in mind that he now will use Hybrid for faster attacks.

Pre Udon Luffy was stronger than Kata and Kata wins vs current Zoro tanks to his speed and FS so does pre Udon Luffy as he still has Snake man and FS to finish Zoro.


Luffy can use gears stacking G2+ G3 +FS as that is Red Rock G2+ G3 + superior haki to push Zoro do use Enma and finishers, when that starts he uses Snakeman + FS to finish Zoro.

Luffy wins high diff because he is forced to use G4 + FS to finish Zoro.


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## Corax (Feb 14, 2021)

Fel1x said:


> what Zoro can even do against for example Snakeman? but forget Snakeman, basic G4 is enough to outspeed Zoro completely


Well his Dragon twister tornado can cut his hands. I mean it can cut Kaido's scales and wound him. Snakeman hands?They are a joke.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Feb 14, 2021)

Corax said:


> Well his Dragon tornado can cut his hands. I mean it can cut Kaido's scales and wound him. Snakeman hands?They are a joke.


No only Enma did that.

And no he will not cut his hands.

Snakeman's hands are so fast that A FS all out Kata was out speeded while Enma attacks are missing a freaking Dragon, the same freaking Dragon that was getting pummeled by G3 pre-Udon Luffy.

He will see the tornado and just dodge it with FS or just gepo away.

It seems we are forgetting that Luffy in base or G2 or Snakeman can gepo and soru away.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Corax (Feb 14, 2021)

Ren. said:


> No only Enam did that.
> 
> And no he will not cut his hands.
> 
> ...


It overpowered Kaido's twister. Obviously Snakeman attacks aren't stronger. They were barely able to move Katakuri. Also he can't geppo in the middle of Snakeman barrage.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Ren. (Feb 14, 2021)

Corax said:


> It overpowered Kaido's twister. Obviously Snakeman attacks aren't stronger. They were barely able to move Katakuri.



Enough for what? To dodge him. Again why would Luffy take attacks when he has the stats to dodge them even in base?

Why would Snakeman even want to take that attack? It is slow as fuck compared to Bagua for example!

And sorry A fully accelerated even basic jet culverin is not weak, Katakuri was stoping the attack before it accelerates enough, Zoro can not do that speed wise.

Zoro again was fighting the slowest version of Kaido that even Kiku was tagging.


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## Corax (Feb 14, 2021)

Ren. said:


> And sorry A fully accelerated even basic jet culverin is not weak, Katakuri was stoping the attack before it accelerates enough, Zoro can not do that.


Zoro deflected a yonko lvl. windlbade attack that cut Kiku in half like nothing and took another yonko lightning attack. Snakeman can barely move/tickle him at this point.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## Draco Bolton (Feb 14, 2021)

Luffy high-extrem diff

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ren. (Feb 14, 2021)

Corax said:


> Zoro deflected a yonko lvl. windlbade attack that cut Kiku in half like nothing and took another yonko lightning attack. Snakeman can barely move/tickle him at this point.


So did Killer.

Mate, he deflected an attack that G4 was zigzagging and Killer did the same. The same G4 that would do the same to Zoro's attacks and I mean Boudman, Snakemna is another tier of speed.

The lightning attack put no one even Killer, The only tanking feat that was highlighted what when Luffy took Boro breath.

That lighting was an AOE attack, not an AP attack.


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## Corax (Feb 14, 2021)

Ren. said:


> So did Killer.
> 
> Mate, he deflected an attack that G4 was zigzagging and Killer did the same.
> 
> The lightning attack put no one even Killer,


Yeah but you are talking about rooftop versions of Killer and Luffy. Much much weaker pre Udon version is in discussion here.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ren. (Feb 14, 2021)

Corax said:


> Yeah but you are talking about rooftop versions of Killer and Luffy. Much much weaker pre Udon version is in discussion here.


Those attacks were dodged by all 5, Bondman was zigzagging a lot of them.

That lightning attack was AOE and targeting anyone so not a concentrated attack.

Want to see a tanking feat, see what G4 did to boro breath that Zoro was using a counter to split.

Zoro was not hit with a Yonko attack that was targeted for him, the only one that suffered that was Luffy with Bagua that he barely dodged and boro breath.

And Snake man has KIng type attacks and again those are finishers, he can chip hp until then with FS and G2+G3 as Jet Shell in Thriller bark and Red Rock now.


If Zoro can not defeat kata and he can't he can't defeat pre-Udon Luffy.

You can wait for individual feats for Zoro against Kaido, King as the rest of us.


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## o0Fujitora0o (Feb 14, 2021)

Luffy destroyes Zoro . Luffy with FS and G4  is too fast and has deadly fire power .

Reactions: Disagree 3 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 14, 2021)

o0Fujitora0o said:


> Luffy destroyes Zoro . Luffy with FS and G4  is too fast and has deadly fire power .


Cap
This version of Luffy isn't destroying Zoro by portrayal alone

Reactions: Like 3


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

Maruo said:


> G4’s time limit is not even close to the only thing that matters here. It remains to be proven whether *Zoro can handle G2/G3’s FS*. People need to stop pretending that G2/G3 doesn't exist.

Reactions: Like 3


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## ho11ow (Feb 14, 2021)

Zoro win lower end of high diff

Reactions: Like 3


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

Zoro is out there on the roof OVERPOWERING, I repeat OVERPOWERING Kaido's attacks with his own, tanking BM attacks with no visible damages, fast enough to cut BM attack before she could execute her own, has lethal attacking power that get 2 Yonkous sweating and Kaido noping out of the way and people want to pit him against Pre Udon Luffy who is fodder to what's happening on the Roof. 

Zoro wreck that version of Luffy who is clown level compared to what Zoro has shown he could actually do against Kaido.

A version of Luffy who after punching his heart out only managed to sobber up Kaido and proceeded to get one shotted is being backed against a character that has Kaido sweat and has given him his biggest injury/visual damage we've seen so far from the new generation.

Then there are people mentioning g2/g3 Luffy. So we're trolling now. 

Also people love talking about G4 as if he's the only one allowed to attack. Unlike Kaido Zoro will be seeking to retaliate against Luffy and not just sit there and take everything. Luffy keep spamming his stretching hands against Zoro with the lethality of Enma and he'll be having the same hallucinations of his hands getting chopped off he had against Mihawk at MF.

Reactions: Like 6 | Funny 1 | Winner 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

maupp said:


> Zoro is out there on the roof OVERPOWERING, I repeat OVERPOWERING Kaido's attacks with his own, tanking BM attacks with no visible damages, fast enough to cut BM attack before she could execute her own, has lethal attacking power that get 2 Yonkous sweating and Kaido noping out of the way and people want to pit him against Pre Udon Luffy who is fodder to what's happening on the Roof.
> 
> Zoro wreck that version of Luffy who is clown level compared to what Zoro has shown he could actually do against Kaido.
> 
> ...


Pre Udon Luffy didn’t have what was necessary to hurt Kaido, his attacks weren’t not working because he wasn’t strong enough his attacks weren’t hurting Kaido because he didn’t have a way to bypass the scales.

Reactions: Like 1


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Pre Udon Luffy didn’t have what was necessary to hurt Kaido, his attacks weren’t not working because he wasn’t strong enough his attacks weren’t hurting Kaido because he didn’t have a way to bypass the scales.


Pre Udon Luffy got wrecked easily because he wasn't strong enough, it's as simple as that.

Advanced COA is something that makes Luffy stronger, it doesn't just allow him to hurt Kaido. He went through training after getting one shoted to be able to put a respectable fight against Kaido now.

Pre Udon Luffy could already use FS yet still got one shoted. You know what's the difference now and then? Luffy got stronger, his stats improved including his FS and reaction speed which is what allowed him to not get one shoted again by TB.

The improvement is beyond Advanced CoA which for some reasons get downplayed as a boost by the way. He improved his physical stats, experience and endurance. Current Luffy is a.lot stronger than Pre Udon Luffy and not just because of COA, his other physical stats are better too.

People might not like it because they feel it took years and loads of panel time(fight with Cracker and Katakuri) to reach to that Pre Udon Luffy level so it would be unfair to easily dismiss it now but that's the unfortunate truth. Oda himself dismissed it when he let Luffy get one shoted and needing training to stand in front of Kaido again.

The guy racking up feats against Kaido and performing embarrassingly and infinitely way better than pre Udon Luffy shouldn't be casually looked down just because he didn't have Luffy's luxury of having tens of chapters dedicated to showing his fights in depth including his fodders moves.

Reactions: Like 2


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 14, 2021)

Zoro destroys even post-udon Luffy. Act 3 Luffy is the only challenge.
Any other view, y'all need to *seriously* reconsider how you approach one piece.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Dunno (Feb 14, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Pre Udon Luffy didn’t have what was necessary to hurt Kaido, his attacks weren’t not working because he wasn’t strong enough his attacks weren’t hurting Kaido because he didn’t have a way to bypass the scales.


Zoro still doesn't have a way to bypass Kaido's scales either, he just has enough power to cut straight through them. Pre-Udon Luffy was simply too weak to do anything to Kaido.

Reactions: Like 2


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

maupp said:


> Pre Udon Luffy got wrecked easily because he wasn't strong enough, it's as simple as that.
> 
> Advanced COA is something that makes Luffy stronger, it doesn't just allow him to hurt Kaido. He went through training after getting one shoted to be able to put a respectable fight against Kaido now.
> 
> ...


Advanced CoA not only makes Luffys stats much stronger but they also give him a means to hurt Kaido, something he did not have before, that’s a big deal you are making very light of.

True he needed to train, but it had more to do with the mountain in strength between the two, because as we can see now he still needs something else as Advanced CoA, FS, and G4 being on a restriction is still not enough despite the training.

He wasn’t calm the first time around, if he was of a calm mind he would have performed much better. Luffy ultimately got lucky to get hit by a TB that’s nearly too fast for his FS to see. Zoro with no FS wouldn’t do better at all either, he would do much worse.

I agree with this.

I mean, Luffy vs Kaido the first go around was a 1v1 and this is a 5v2 effort against the Two Yonkos. I don’t see Zoro stopping a TB to the head either, not even the current one when FS was almost not fast enough to react to it, Zoro hasn’t had to deal with a Thunder Bagua yet in this fight as Kaido has only used it on Luffy, that’s a crucial detail you aren’t really paying attention to.

Every other attack by Kaido has been easily dodged or dealt with by all the SNs except TB.

We will see in these coming chapters how Zoro and the others deal with that with no FS.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

I think the most crucial detail that people aren’t paying attention to here is Thunder Bagua.

Pre Udon Luffy had no issues dodging a boro breath from Kaido. But a TB is too fast for even Luffy with FS to avoid and is too powerful to tank.

Put the Current Zoro in Luffys place in a 1v1 against Kaido and tell me how he reacts to a TB with no FS.

The answer is he can’t deal with it and it’s not a coincidence that he hasn’t had to deal with a TB so far, Kaido might start cleaning house real soon, unless Law starts zipping everyone around because none of them have FS to dodge.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

The problem with Luffy and the battledome is that people get caught up in the sheer amount of hype and panels dedicated to his new power up forms by Oda. Oda does this for every new/special Luffy form or attack yet they always amount to average level just an arc or 2 down the line. 

Luffy is the MC which means Oda hypes up his new forms or modes. Oda would spend countless chapters hyping up a single Luffy's move which gives the perception that those said moves are stronger and better than some other characters moves that don't get the same amount of panel dedication. 

A quick example, the rooftop battle. Luffy initial acoa punch (Red Rock) got hyped to heaven. Oda dedicated an entire chapter hyping up that punch and its effect on Kaido (which was damaging him, making him caught some blood). Now as readers we get so hyped for that punch given the amount of panel dedicated to that attack yet the attack in itself only amounted to the slightest of damages on Kaido. 

Now few chapters later, Zoro cut Kaido and countered/overpowered his attack before cutting him. 

Now here, Zoro has Kaido coughing the most blood we've seen from him, far more than Luffy's red rock and his cut on Kaido is very visible, by far the most visible damage we've seen anyone do to Kaido from the RT5. 

Yet that attack which was obviously far more impressive than Red Rock both visually (the cut)  and impact wise(Kaido caught up lot of blood from it) didn't get a tenth of the hype and panel time dedicated to it compared to Red rock. It only got a double spread and a quick comment from Killer and Big Mom. Meanwhile Red Rock got countless pages worshipping it while everyone on the rooftop had to comment on it and be in awe. Yet Zoro's attack was deadlier than red rock. Why is that? Because Luffy is the mc which means him and his stuff get far more focus than anyone or anything else. 

Then people get this impression that everything Luffy does is better than a guy who get minimum amount of panel for his stuff. Perception with Luffy are skewed because of panel time. This is what I'm trying to get with Pre Udon G4. 

People have seen tens of chapters of G4 in action, in all its glory so they subsconsciously always lean and bet on it because it has had far more exposure. 

Zoro's tatsumaki attack on Kaido has shown better potency and power (cutting Kaido and overpowering his attack) them most of G4 moves we've seen yet people will always tend to lean on G4 moves because they've been exposed a lot, fleshed out and hyped throughout countless panels when used while this tatsumaki just got a quick double spread and we moved on from it(no follow up hype. If it was performed by Luffy, 3-4 pages would have been dedicated to hyping it) so the perception will always favor Luffy's moves that have been established and given breathing room to hype after they got executed. 

Forget amount of panel, try to not let influence one's take on these matters and people.qill realise that some of Luffy's feats are skewed. 

Anyone remember how G2 was special upon its initial reveal. It had hype and risk (damaging Luffy's health so badly that it could shorten even his lifespan). Then by the end of the next arc, it felt like Zoro could already cut apart that form with his new sword shisui and in the subsequent arcs it became an average form just like that. That's what Oda does. Hype Luffy's new toys then quickly discard them or water them down by the very next arc.

Reactions: Like 6 | Winner 2


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 14, 2021)

Zorô is honestly almost as strong as current Luffy imo

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Advanced CoA not only makes Luffys stats much stronger but they also give him a means to hurt Kaido, something he did not have before, that’s a big deal you are making very light of.
> 
> True he needed to train, but it had more to do with the mountain in strength between the two, because as we can see now he still needs something else as Advanced CoA, FS, and G4 being on a restriction is still not enough despite the training.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to go to much into the claim that Zoro wouldn't be able to deal with Kaido's TB because that's speculation and pretty much baseless assumption here.

Your mistake is thinking dodging is the only way to deal with TB. So fluffy has FS to dodge it before he gets hit. Not everyone has to deal with it that way. Zoro could always try to parry/block it to lessen the impact of the damage on him. How many time has Zoro got hit clean before he could react and parry and not just because an opponent manage to do so through other means. To put it simply Zoro is well capable of parrying/blocking a straight forward attack that come at it. He might not have the FS to try and dodge completely like Luffy but I would bet on his reaction to try and block (I'm saying TRY here because I'm sure the attack would overpower him and even send him flying but the block will lessen the impact and help him avoid getting one shoted like it would be if he were to get hit clean). Anyways these are just speculations but I just wanted to highlight other ways to deal with TB than just trying to dodge it completely.

Beside that point, let's say we put Zoro in Pre Udon Luffy's place. And let's say if Kaido TB him he obviously get bodied flat like Luffy. But before that, give Zoro free hits like Kaido sis for pre Udon Luffy, what do you think would happen? In what state would Kaido be compared to his state after Pre Udon Luffy's onslaught.

Truth is Zoro simply has better showing them that Luffy, he's got better performance than him and it's not even close.

Reactions: Like 5 | Tier Specialist 1


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

maupp said:


> I'm not going to go to much into the claim that Zoro wouldn't be able to deal with Kaido's TB because that's speculation and pretty much baseless assumption here.
> 
> Your mistake is thinking dodging is the only way to deal with TB. So fluffy has FS to dodge it before he gets hit. Not everyone has to deal with it that way. Zoro could always try to parry/block it to lessen the impact of the damage on him. How many time has Zoro got hit clean before he could react and parry and not just because an opponent manage to do so through other means. To put it simply Zoro is well capable of parrying/blocking a straight forward attack that come at it. He might not have the FS to try and dodge completely like Luffy but I would bet on his reaction to try and block (I'm saying TRY here because I'm sure the attack would overpower him and even send him flying but the block will lessen the impact and help him.abois getting one shoted like if he gets hit clean). Anyways these are just speculations but I just wanted to highlight other ways to deal with TB than just trying to dodge it completely.
> 
> ...


He would need to be quick enough to put up a guard before the attack hits him, TB is really fast you seem to not know what FS is and how it works lol, Luffy could see into the future and could not dodge the attack.

Zoro is NOT going to just simply put his swords near his face and dodge that club, he’s got to be fast enough to react to do that.

Like I told you before, Zoro would do better BECAUSE pre udon Luffy did not have the means to hurt Kaido, not that his attacks weren’t strong enough, you keep overlooking that for some odd reason.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Maruo (Feb 14, 2021)

maupp said:


> Pre Udon Luffy could already use FS yet still got one shoted. You know what's the difference now and then? Luffy got stronger, his stats improved including his FS and reaction speed which is what allowed him to not get one shoted again by TB.



There is no indication that this is the main reason for the difference. It is much more likely that Luffy simply couldn't use FS his first time against Kaido due to his anger.


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## Dunno (Feb 14, 2021)

OG sama said:


> I think the most crucial detail that people aren’t paying attention to here is Thunder Bagua.
> 
> Pre Udon Luffy had no issues dodging a boro breath from Kaido. But a TB is too fast for even Luffy with FS to avoid and is too powerful to tank.
> 
> ...


He blocks it. Easy as that. In contrast to Luffy, Zoro hasn't usually had trouble reacting to his opponent's speed. He has had trouble with mobility, but never with speed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

Dunno said:


> He blocks it. Easy as that. In contrast to Luffy, Zoro has never had trouble reacting to anyone's speed. He has had trouble with mobility, but never with speed.


So he’s going to react to an attack that Luffy who can see into the FUTURE could see but could only barely dodge.... 

Zoro whose got the worse Observation Haki out the M3 is going to do this by simply blocking an attack that’s too fast for FS users to react too...

Come on man this is bullshit.


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

@OG sama @Maruo So you guys are just going to dismiss my arguments about Pre Udon Luffy being weaker than Current Luffy (even without factoring ACOA) due to his state of mind. That's a rather convenient way to put this.

I'll just stick to manga rather than assumption and say that post Udon Luffy has displayed better physical stats feats than Pre Udon Luffy. This also answers your @OG sama question.

It's not just about ACOA, Post Udon has far better feats outside of ACOA then pre Udon. He's got better physical feats. Heck I suspect that down the line Oda will let Luffy take a TB to the face in this fight and he'll fight through it. Speculation obviously but I personally see it coming.


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## Maruo (Feb 14, 2021)

Beyond just reacting to it, some people here seem to believe Zoro can successfully block Kaido's strongest attack so far. That just seems insane to me.



maupp said:


> @OG sama @Maruo So you guys are just going to dismiss my arguments about *Pre Udon Luffy being weaker than Current Luffy (even without factoring ACOA) due to his state of mind*. That's a rather convenient way to put this.
> 
> I'll just stick to manga rather than assumption and say that post Udon Luffy has displayed better physical stats feats than Pre Udon Luffy. This also answers your @OG sama question.
> 
> It's not just about ACOA, Post Udon has far better feats outside of ACOA then pre Udon.



Well sure, if we include Luffy’s inability to use FS, he loses decisively (assuming that's what you're talking about)


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

OG sama said:


> So he’s going to react to an attack that Luffy who can see into the FUTURE could see but could only barely dodge....
> 
> Zoro whose got the worse Observation Haki out the M3 is going to do this by simply blocking an attack that’s too fast for FS users to react too...
> 
> Come on man this is bullshit.


You do know that it takes a lot more speee and quicker reactions to completely dodge an attack than block it. Instinct alone help massively with blocking something coming toward ones face.

Base Luffy dodging  FS seem attack shouldn't be impossible for Zoro to parry.


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

@OG sama @Maruo So you guys are just going to dismiss my arguments about Pre Udon Luffy being weaker than Current Luffy (even without factoring ACOA) due to his state of mind. That's a rather convenient way to put this.


maupp said:


> I'll just stick to manga rather than assumption and say that post Udon Luffy has displayed better physical stats feats than Pre Udon Luffy. This also answers your @OG sama question.
> 
> It's not just about ACOA, Post Udon has far better feats outside of ACOA then pre Udon. He's got better physical feats. Heck I suspect that down the line Oda will let Luffy take a TB to the face in this fight and he'll fight through it. Speculation obviously but I personally see it coming.


But I explained this all in my post that I responded to you my guy.

It’s rather simple and I just can’t keep repeating the same things over and over, either you get it or you don’t.


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Beyond just reacting to it, some people here seem to believe Zoro can successfully block Kaido's strongest attack. That just seems insane to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Well sure, if we include Luffy’s inability to use FS, he loses decisively (assuming that's what you're talking about)


The point is he had FS by then and he still for one shoted. 

Whatever reasons he didn't use FS,be it due to him not having mastered it enough to activate it in the nick of time to help or whatever else, the bottom line is that that version wasn't good enough to use it and try to dodge while this current version is good enough to calmly use it and dodge TB which is further proof that Currently Luffy is far improved from his pre Udon self. I mean the man sis train after that incident.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

By the way I just remembered that Luffy almost went G4 against Ulti after his g3 attack wasn't enough to waste both her and P1 yet someone in this thread dared to bring up g2/g3 Luffy against Zoro.

Seriously, that Ulti level form is being brought up against Zoro. Bloody hell. 

Who was the last relevant character Luffy fought and defeated in g2/g3 only? Fecking Hody.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

Like Zoro beats Hyozou and Pica and Zoro fans think he’s invincible lol.

I think you guys have had it too good Post TS so now y’all think he can do something as ridiculous as reacting to a TB from the WSC, that even people that see into the Future can’t dodge.

Kaidos got to have his time to shine guys, and that will come at Zoros expense, it’s no coincidence that the rooftop 5 besides Luffy havent had to deal with Kaidos club.

Because none of them besides Luffy can hope to dodge it even nearly, Law will need to shambles everyone around to not get hit, and that’s just only half the issue, they will also need to figure out how to put a much more durable Hybrid Kaido down and for good, with Luffy on a Haki break. Don’t be surprised if Kaido starts clubbing and Zoro and Killer and the others fall victim.

Hawkins and Yamato are going to need to come up here soon and work some magic because there’s no way Kaido should even go down before Onigashima drops on the flower Capital realistically not even close.


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## Maruo (Feb 14, 2021)

maupp said:


> By the way I just remembered that Luffy almost went G4 against Ulti after his g3 attack wasn't enough to waste both her and P1 yet someone in this thread dared to bring up g2/g3 Luffy against Zoro.



I mean, Page One and Ulti are going to be defeated by Usopp and Nami. Stronger members of the Calamity Six are going to be defeated by the Mid Trio in more straightforward fights. So unless you think G2/G3 is weaker than the Mid Trio, I would assume that that's an outlier. Luffy jobbing to weaker enemies isn't exactly a new thing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

Maruo said:


> I mean, Page One and Ulti are going to be defeated by Usopp and Nami. Stronger members of the Calamity Six are going to be defeated by the Mid Trio. So unless you think G2/G3 is weaker than the Mid Trio, I would assume that that's an outlier. Luffy jobbing to weaker enemies isn't exactly a new thing.


Obviously Luffy would be able to defeat Ulti and P1 with g3 and below only. But my point is that G3 has become honestly trash level compared to where the top player and Luffy are that it's irrelevant to bring it up in any serious match against solid opponents. 

G3 will fall even further behind after spams G5 or some super duper COA level 10. It'll end up being the equivalent of a gomu gomu bazuka, those east blue Luffy moves.


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## Dunno (Feb 14, 2021)

OG sama said:


> So he’s going to react to an attack that Luffy who can see into the FUTURE could see but could only barely dodge....
> 
> Zoro whose got the worse Observation Haki out the M3 is going to do this by simply blocking an attack that’s too fast for FS users to react too...
> 
> Come on man this is bullshit.


It is not. You cannot attribute Luffy's feats to Zoro. There's no reason to think that Zoro couldn't react to Thunder Bagua just because a weaker version of Luffy couldn't. Also, dodging requires more movement then blocking, since you need to move your entire body out of the way as compared to just moving your arms. Zoro has never had worse reaction speed than Luffy, only movement speed. Stating with certainty that Zoro cannot react to the attack is bullshit.


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

maupp said:


> Obviously Luffy would be able to defeat Ulti and P1 with g3 and below only. But my point is that G3 has become honestly trash level compared to where the top player and Luffy are that it's irrelevant to bring it up in any serious match against solid opponents.
> 
> G3 will fall even further behind after spams G5 or some super duper COA level 10. It'll end up being the equivalent of a gomu gomu bazuka, those east blue Luffy moves.


It sure didn’t look useless or fodder tier when he hit Kaido with it.

You claim to like to go by manga panels correct? Y’all can’t pick and choose what y’all don’t want to be acceptable and not, that’s the issue with y’all posters.

Luffy most likely wasn’t using Advanced Haki on his gear forms when he fought P1 and Ulti, he was trying to conserve strength so it wouldn’t have made sense for him to be using it especially when he should totally be able to hurt P1 and Ulti without Advanced forms of Haki.


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## maupp (Feb 14, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Like Zoro beats Hyozou and Pica and Zoro fans think he’s invincible lol.
> 
> I think you guys have had it too good Post TS so now y’all think he can do something as ridiculous as reacting to a TB from the WSC, that even people that see into the Future can’t dodge.
> 
> ...


This post is just a string of assumptions. None know whether the others could or couldn't deal with TB, that's up to Oda. 

This is the issue here. You've drawn a line and decided that only Luffy could do this or that based on your own conjectures. Nothing would stop Oda to make someone else dodge that TB ana just rolled with it. 

Feat wise we know Luffy could dodge it and we don't know if the others can't deal with it. But instead you've already decided they can't deal with it with not much proof to back it up. 

GK in theory was a one shot until DD somehow dealt with it, same with plenty other moves which in theory should be end gamers yet they don't pan out. All you're doing right now is speculating.


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## Maruo (Feb 14, 2021)

maupp said:


> Obviously Luffy would be able to defeat Ulti and P1 with g3 and below only. But my point is that G3 has become honestly trash level compared to where the top player and Luffy are that it's irrelevant to bring it up in any serious match against solid opponents.
> 
> G3 will fall even further behind after spams G5 or some super duper COA level 10. It'll end up being the equivalent of a gomu gomu bazuka, those east blue Luffy moves.



There is no guarantee that G5 exists so we should stop assuming it does. Right now, after Luffy's ACoA power-up, I would say that G2/G3 Luffy is definitely stronger than any supernova other than Zoro. This is based on his feats of damaging Kaido (I know that others did as well, but ACoA seems to be more generally applicable than the tricks Killer and Law used) and partially dodging Kaido's best attack shown so far.


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

Dunno said:


> It is not. You cannot attribute Luffy's feats to Zoro. There's no reason to think that Zoro couldn't react to Thunder Bagua just because a weaker version of Luffy couldn't. Also, dodging requires more movement then blocking, since you need to move your entire body out of the way as compared to just moving your arms. Zoro has never had worse reaction speed than Luffy, only movement speed. Stating with certainty that Zoro cannot react to the attack is bullshit.


There is reason, he can’t see into the future like Luffy can, like what you are saying makes no damn sense bruh.

You talking about his reaction and movement speeds have never been worse than Luffys but yet Luffy couldn’t dodge the attack despite looking into the future. Do you not know what it means to look into the future? It means you see the shit ahead of time, this is something Zoro can’t do. He’s going to get his ass smacked way before he can even put a guard up by a Thunder Bagua bruh, that shit is hitting him before he can even process what’s going on.

You trying to compare this to other instances in the past is absolutely garbage thinking. Luffy didn’t have FS in none of those other instances. And his observation Haki has never been great or highlighted in a way that suggest he’s going to even have a chance. You bringing up old Pre skip feats or feats before Luffy got FS comparing their reactions isn’t going to fly at all bruh.


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## OG sama (Feb 14, 2021)

maupp said:


> This post is just a string of assumptions. None know whether the others could or couldn't deal with TB, that's up to Oda.
> 
> This is the issue here. You've drawn a line and decided that only Luffy could do this or that based on your own conjectures. Nothing would stop Oda to make someone else dodge that TB ana just rolled with it.
> 
> ...


I got my supporting evidence from the manga itself of only Luffy having to deal with Thunder Bagua on two different occasions while the others have yet to even experience Kaido swinging that club at them.

Meanwhile you have no basis for any of the claims you are making of them being capable of dodging the attack besides a hunch you have of them being capable because that’s how you personally feel. 

It’s safe to say I got more credibility with my assumption then you do.



“Damn it, even though I saw the future, he’s too fast!!!”

But yet I’m supposed to believe that the others can dodge this attack by sheer chance lol.

Oda knows exactly what he’s doing with this statement and not even having Kaido attempt to hit the others with this attack.

Oda knows the other SNs can’t do this if luffy with Future sight can’t do it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dunno (Feb 14, 2021)

OG sama said:


> There is reason, he can’t see into the future like Luffy can, like what you are saying makes no damn sense bruh.
> 
> You talking about his reaction and movement speeds have never been worse than Luffys but yet Luffy couldn’t dodge the attack despite looking into the future. Do you not know what it means to look into the future? It means you see the shit ahead of time, this is something Zoro can’t do. He’s going to get his ass smacked way before he can even put a guard up by a Thunder Bagua bruh, that shit is hitting him before he can even process what’s going on.
> 
> You trying to compare this to other instances in the past is absolutely garbage thinking. Luffy didn’t have FS in none of those other instances. And his observation Haki has never been great or highlighted in a way that suggest he’s going to even have a chance. You bringing up old Pre skip feats or feats before Luffy got FS comparing their reactions isn’t going to fly at all bruh.


I'm saying that pre-Udon Luffy was too slow to react to Kaido's attack at all and too weak to injure him at all. I'm also saying that Zoro is strong enough to injure Kaido, and likely fast enough to react to his Thunder Bagua. FS is overrated. It kinda allows you to see into the future, but it didn't work for Katakuri when he fought Luffy or when he tried to snipe Sanji. You realise that if you forsee the future and try to dodge, the guy attacking you can see that you are dodging and therefore adjust his attack, right? FS helps a little bit, but as we have repeatedly been shown, it's not an end all be all. Pre-Udon Luffy's attack power wasn't even in the same ballpark as current Zoro's and there's no reason to think his reaction speed was either.


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## Moldrew (Feb 14, 2021)

Dunno said:


> I'm saying that pre-Udon Luffy was too slow to react to Kaido's attack at all and too weak to injure him at all. I'm also saying that Zoro is strong enough to injure Kaido, and likely fast enough to react to his Thunder Bagua. FS is overrated. It kinda allows you to see into the future, but it didn't work for Katakuri when he fought Luffy or when he tried to snipe Sanji. You realise that if you forsee the future and try to dodge, the guy attacking you can see that you are dodging and therefore adjust his attack, right? FS helps a little bit, but as we have repeatedly been shown, it's not an end all be all. Pre-Udon Luffy's attack power wasn't even in the same ballpark as current Zoro's and there's no reason to think his reaction speed was either.


Pre-Udon Luffy was too angry to use future sight as he believed Kaido had just blasted his friends into oblivion and then saw his own attacks get shrugged off.


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 14, 2021)

who cares about thunderbagua, Zoro easily beats even infinite G4 pre-udon Luffy

1. Zoro's attacks scared Kaido and Big Mom. Luffy was humiliated. Zoro's attack power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G4 pre-Udon Luffy

2. Zoro took Big Mom's lightning, an attack that even hurts her. Zoro's durability >>>>

3. Zoro redirected Kaido's air slashes. Zoro's speed is at least comparable.

The fact that this is a debate is concerning.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 14, 2021)

The funny thing is that Zoro is performing just as well as current g4 Luffy against the yonkos and some people believe that current Luffy wold win against Zoro without g4

Reactions: Like 6 | Winner 1


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## Danyboy (Feb 14, 2021)

Zoro wins. Man is tanking/dodging Yonko lvl offense, while damaging Kaido w move that has been used only for fodders before and making BM wet her pantie w another move. And what pre udon Luffy has done? Barely made Kaido somber to get one shoted from him later? Nah, not impressive at all.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Maruo (Feb 14, 2021)

Taking the three posts above at face value, current Zoro would win against current Luffy comfortably. I am not inherently against Zoro being stronger than Luffy, but I highly doubt Oda intends for that to be the case.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ren. (Feb 14, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Taking the three posts above at face value, current Zoro would win against current Luffy comfortably. I am not inherently against Zoro being stronger than Luffy, but I highly doubt Oda intends for that to be the case.


Those 3 are always saying Zoro is above Luffy, taking them serious is a mistake.


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## Magentabeard (Feb 14, 2021)

Luffy in G2 has absolutely no chance.
If he had a significant speed advantage over Zoro then Zoro would be too slow to be dealing with the yonkou as he is now. Zoro is not getting speedblitzed by the yonkou he is reacting to their attacks appropriately. Why would they not take advantage of such a slowpoke? Luffy would still need G4 no matter what even current Luffy to stand a chance.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Maruo (Feb 15, 2021)

Magentabeard said:


> Luffy in G2 has absolutely no chance.
> If he had a significant speed advantage over Zoro then Zoro would be too slow to be dealing with the yonkou as he is now. Zoro is not getting speedblitzed by the yonkou he is reacting to their attacks appropriately. Why would they not take advantage of such a slowpoke? Luffy would still need G4 no matter what even current Luffy to stand a chance.



Most of BM and Kaido's attacks haven't been particularly fast outside of Thunder Bagua (which base Luffy partially dodged) and Shiva's Wrath (which hit everyone). Luffy's feat of partially dodging Thunder Bagua is significantly more impressive than anything Zoro has done from a defensive perspective.

Blame Oda for making BM and Kaido sandbag. That doesn't change the speed of their attacks as portrayed in the manga.

And again, if current Luffy needs G4 to stand a chance against Zoro, Zoro is significantly stronger than Luffy.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Most of BM and Kaido's attacks haven't been particularly fast outside of Thunder Bagua (which base Luffy partially dodged) and Shiva's Wrath (which hit everyone). Luffy's feat of partially dodging Thunder Bagua is significantly more impressive than anything Zoro has done from a defensive perspective.


The only fast attack on the rooftop was Bagua that is the only top-tier speed attack that managed to speed blitz G4 before even if that was maybe because of the lack of FS but still.

Luffy in base never was slow in reaction, those who think Zoro can speed blitz Luffy with FS in base don't read the manga. Katakuri could not do it and he is fast and has mastered FS, Zoro has no chance. If you add G2 and Snake man + FS he misses 9/10 times and 10/10 the really big hits like Enma ones.

The only way is to pressure him into Bound-man but that is pointless because he needs to use Enma for that and Enma attacks need charging and can miss.

Conclusions the stats that Luffy has makes him too versatile for Zoro while Zoro's only winning way is to use Enama aka his own G4 mode that only increases AP and drains haki like G4.

Enma is only good for Tanks like Current Kaido, Human form could dodge him all day and wait for hybrid to show us what kaido is all about.



Maruo said:


> I don't think current Luffy quite has the attack power to win in G2/G3. Zoro would struggle to land hits, but I don't think he would miss 9/10  of them, especially considering his AoE attacks and G2/G3 Luffy's lack of speed relative to G4. I think Zoro's damage output against Luffy would be a smidgen greater than G2/G3's against Zoro, even after factoring in dodging using FS. I'm pretty sure Luffy would still have to go into G4 to win, though he wouldn't have to stay in it for long.
> 
> Pre-Udon Luffy is the same, except with a lot less attack power. This one would be a very difficult fight for Luffy, but I think he would pull through in the end.


He can use G3 + G2 Stacking and g2 + gepo + FS and Soru for dodging and he can finish him with KKG.

He can use G4 for one hard attack and go out of G4 as he did 2 times in Wano before the rooftop.

He needs G4 for the finisher that is all that I am saying.

FS is not only useful for dodging but for counter-attacking and baiting, if he forces Zoro for an Enma Attack and dodged with FS + goes into G4 + FS to do a critical counter that is more than Zoro can do with just Enma.

My reason is simple, Versatility. This is why Zoro needed Ourloumbs for Pica and Law for counterattacking Boro Breath or helping Luffy.


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## Typhon (Feb 15, 2021)

The cap in this thread for Zoro is egregious lol. The worst has to be Zoro outlasting G4.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Typhon said:


> The cap in this thread for Zoro is egregious lol. The worst has to be Zoro outlasting G4.


My advice is to ignore them.
They are the same people that do this for years.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2021)

Actually G4 speed is a myth. Just look at how it is portrayed in this fight. Luffy dodges in G4 Kaido's air blades,but so does Killer in a similar fashion. Also the same does Zoro with Luffy on his back a chapter later. Even current Luffy's G4 isn't portrayed like some kind of speedster step above yonko and fellow SN. Pre Udon is a joke,he is much weaker (current base is faster than pre Udon).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Corax said:


> Luffy dodges in G4 Kaido's air blades


Or those air blades are just slow and they are. kiku is not a reference for speed.


Corax said:


> some kind of speedster step above yonko


Yonko have all their stats at top tier including Speed, in fact, Human Kaido shits on all the SN and his dragon form, including Luffy.



Corax said:


> (current base is faster than pre Udon).


Because of FS. his new COA did not increase his reflexes and speed.

Also, G4 speed is not a myth, that is how you got Snake man btw let's downplay that also.


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## Maruo (Feb 15, 2021)

Corax said:


> Actually G4 speed is a myth. Just look at how it is portrayed in this fight. Luffy dodges in G4 Kaido's air blades,but so does Killer in a similar fashion. Also the same does Zoro with Luffy on his back a chapter later. Even current Luffy's G4 isn't portrayed like some kind of speedster step above yonko and fellow SN. Pre Udon is a joke,he is much weaker (current base is faster than pre Udon).


Those are all different attacks from Thunder Bagua, so Supernovas being able to dodge those doesn't say much about their speed relative to Luffy. And again, when Pre-Udon Luffy faced Kaido, he wasn't using FS. This is a much better explanation for the apparent difference in speed than Luffy magically getting a lot faster.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Maruo said:


> And again, when Pre-Udon Luffy faced Kaido, he wasn't using FS.


That is highly probable as he was enraged and we know how that works with FS, we can ask Kata.

Or we can go the other route and say that now base Luffy from training with rock and getting a new COA level is now faster than G4 in base.


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Those are all different attacks from Thunder Bagua, so Supernovas being able to dodge those doesn't say much about their speed relative to Luffy. And again, when Pre-Udon Luffy faced Kaido, he wasn't using FS. This is a much better explanation for the apparent difference in speed than Luffy magically getting a lot faster.


FS doesn't make legs magically move faster. It is a reaction booster, not a speed booster. Clearly Luffy had trained his legs and base stats in Udon (block lifting training, CoA training, general training) way past his pre Udon self. Assume same can be said about SN. They are>>>pre Onigashima raid SN.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Corax said:


> FS doesn't make legs magically move faster.


You don't need legs to dodge,  precog is like intuition for boxers.


Corax said:


> Clearly Luffy has trained his legs and base stats in Udon (block lifting traigning, CoA training,general training)


So again his training with rocks boosted his speed to above G4 before that?
Ok whatever excuse you want to downplay G4.

G4 speed comes from flight, gepo and soru in the air so no amount of training will replace that for now.

In fact Base has better reflexes and dodging as shown vs Kata, G4 has more 360 movement speed, base and G4 have the same amount of reflexes and COO.

And he used his legs in G4 with tension as pistons, no amount of leg work will replace that this fast , again G4 is based on muscled inflation so there is no way that his training will surpass that amount of muscle expansion for what you said to happen.


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> G4 speed comes from flight, gepo and sour in the air  so no amount of training will replace that.


This is absolutely incorrect. Geppo and soru speed are depended on leg muscle power. So for example Lucci's soru/geppo were much faster than Blueno's.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Corax said:


> This is absolutely incorrect. Gepo and soru speed are depended on leg muscle power. So for example Lucci's soru/geppo were much faster than Blueno's.


This is correct as I said he uses Gepo and Soru in the air by using the inflation of the muscle in G4.

He still can't use Gepo in base as he still lacks that amount of leg strength.

And even if he can he is still using that way faster than CP9 bar Lucci.

I know what I am saying as I know Luffy well.


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> This is correct as I said he uses Gepo and Soru in the air by using the inflation of the muscle in G4.
> 
> He still can't use Gepo in base.
> 
> I know what I am saying.


Pre Udon geppo<post Udon geppo in G4 since Luffy's leg strength post Udon is massively greater (after 9 days of block lifting training in kairoseki).

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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Corax said:


> Pre Udon geppo<post Udon geppo in G4 since Luffy's leg strength post Udon is massively greater (after 9 days of block lifting training in kairoseki).


Again you can say what you want.

Luffy has still not used geppo in base and I know why that is.

For Luffy to be faster than pre-Udon G4 in base he needs to do a faster geppo and to fly faster than G4 and he can't. The only one that can do that is Sanji as he has the strongest legs from SHP.


Luffy and Zoro can only use Soru, Zoro has his iai for that.

The fastest two individuals are G4 Luffy and Sanji, Snake man is even faster but in attack speed.

The fastest overall in all mediums is Sanji as he can also use blue walk and Luffy has a DF, the fastest in the air is G4 Luffy and close is all out Sanji.


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> For Luffy to be as fast as pre-Udon G4 he needs to do a faster geppo and to fly faster than G4 and he can't. The only one that can do that is Sanji as he has the strongest legs from SHP.


He blitzed and put Kaido to the ground in his biggest and slowest mode (G3) and in base dodged his bagua. This is more than enough for post Udon Luffy to be>pre Udon G4 in speed.

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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Corax said:


> He blitzed and put Kaido to the ground in his biggest and slowest mode (G3) and in base dodged his bagua. This is more than enough for post Udon Luffy to be>pre Udon G4 in speed.


That is Soru and FS.

Move that to air and he does shit.

Ground Soru is not faster than Gepo, Gepo is 3d Movement as it is the air aka 3D, Soru is linear acceleration 2D movement from A to B.

And please that is not G3 That was G3+ G2 so it is not slow also he used FS  and Soru to land it.

Now imagine what he can do with FS + G4 Gepo, o yeah he zig zags kaido's wind blades.


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

People keep bringing up FS yet Luffy has been saved like 5 times on the rooftop fight alone by Zoro. Where were those FS to help him read lethal moves that were thrown at him and not be caught out so Zoro would save him and take him out for the way.

I still can't believe Current Zoro who is currently performing almost similarly to Luffy (and doesn't have to be a sitting duck for 10 minutes) is being compared to a Luffy several times weaker than the current one. This is beyond ridiculous in my eyes.  

I mean what the hell does pre Udon Luffy do to CURRENT Zoro who is stacked with feats against YONKOUS.

Oda has gone out of his way to make Zoro looks terrific on that rooftop battle, made his offensive output be more lethal than even his golden boy so far. Zoro has more than proven enough that his physical stats are great enough to tank, fight, counter YONKOUS LEVEL threat yet Fecking Pre Udon Luffy is being brought up right now. Really? 

Zoro has the power and strength TO OVERPOWER Kaido's attack, OVERPOWER. Pre Udon Luffy ain't doing jack shit to this Zoro. He gets bodied.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 3


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2021)

I mean current Luffy vs current Zoro might be a good debate (with 10 minutes G4  cooldown and all). But pre Udon vs current Zoro is a joke/mismatch thread clearly.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

I mean "debating" people that always overrank Zoro is a joke in itself.

As for them FS is a joke so is G2 and G4.

They believe Zoro can even overcome a G4 gatting barrage making him like Kaido a tank to advance COA attacks.
Seriously they think 10m is easy when Luffy pummeled Kaido with so many attacks but again Zoro can block that and even might win because he just needs to block all those attacks for 10m.  

Blocking penetration haki is now easy, ask kaido or dodging is easy  ask Kido vs Red Rock.


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I mean "debating" people that always overrank Zoro is a joke in itself.
> 
> As for them FS is a joke so is G2 and G4.
> 
> They believe Zoro can even overcome a G4 batting barrage making him like Kaido a tank to advance COA attacks.


I mean how, objectively? Rooftop Zoro no diffs yonko lvl. attacks, tanks them, overpowers them, wounds Kaido and scares BM. How exactly this is an overrank? Pre Udon G4 has such feats?

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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Corax said:


> I mean how, objectively?Rooftop Zoro no diffs yonko lvl. attacks,tanks them,overpowers them,wounds Kaido and scares BM. How exactly this is an overrank?Pre Udon G4 has such feats?


No diff Yonko level attack ...
Overpowers them
and Wounds Kaido.

Tell me when did he wound kaido without Enma?

Tell me who outside Kiku has that Yonko attack ever hurt anyone from the Scabards or SN? Kiku is not even YC3 and he is not especially a tank.

Overpower a twister, why did he not overpower Boro breath of tunder bagua if he can overpower a Yonko?

Why did he not overpower BM's sword?

Who exactly badly injured that AOE attack that was landed on Zoro, Killer, Kid, Law ?


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Overpower a twister, why did he not overpower Boro breath of tunder bagua?


He cut Boro in half. We are clearly reading different manga.

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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Corax said:


> He cut Boro in half. We are clearly reading different manga.


With foxfire. Kienmon does that causally and that is not overpowering that is countering like the scroll that sealed the fire. I never said that the ninja or kienmon overpowered Kaido that would be me overwanking them.

If that is overpowering, So I guess Luffy overpowers All Bm's lightning attacks because he is made out of rubber. Heck Luffy in EB was overpowering some BM attacks as he counters lightning with his DF.


Again he can now cut Fire and he can cut Kaido tanks to Enma, we know that.

Zoro is strong but not that strong.


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 15, 2021)

Reacting to dragon Kaidou is nothing. Even the weaker scabbards could do it. The real test for their speed is how they deal with Hybrid Kaidou's. Not too well I suspect. That would be a better assessment of the speed difference between Luffy and Zoro.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Reacting to dragon Kaidou is nothing. Even the weaker scabbards could do it. The real test for their speed is how they deal with Hybrid Kaidou's. Not too well I suspect. That would be a better assessment of the speed difference between Luffy and Zoro.


I said this before but we will see Hybrid speed blitzing all 5 and I think Kaido takes this round.


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Corax said:


> I mean current Luffy vs current Zoro might be a good debate (with 10 minutes G4  cooldown and all). But pre Udon vs current Zoro is a joke/mismatch thread clearly.


This, pretty much this. 

RT Zoro as well as Luffy have been given the best feats out if everyone in the new gen and have performed phenomenally. It would make more sense to pit them against each other based on current showings so far but Pre Udon Luffy?  

Problem with Zoro is that he get underestimated massively by anyone who isn't a fan. People might say Zoro gets wanked(for good reasons anyways) but the under rating he gets is beyond absurd. 

For years the likes of Kidd and Law were put above Zoro just because they happened to be Luffy's rivals, nothing more, nothing less. We told people Zoro is stronger but none would listen to that because they are captains and Luffy's rivals. 

Even after Zoro performed a similar feat to Law in cutting a FB Haki like nothing, people were still denying Zoro's standing in relation to Law, just like how despite Zoro's current feats, some still want to pick pre Udon Luffy just because he's Luffy. 

It's only recently when they've all been put in the same stage to perform that some people have started realizing that Zoro is stronger than Law or Kidd. 

It doesn't matter how good Oda portray Zoro which is really good, you always have these random under rating of Zoro from some people to then be proven wrong. It's quite baffling.

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## Corax (Feb 15, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Reacting to dragon Kaidou is nothing. Even the weaker scabbards could do it. The real test for their speed is how they deal with Hybrid Kaidou's. Not too well I suspect. That would be a better assessment of the speed difference between Luffy and Zoro.


Well to be fair hybrid Kaido should be great deal faster than base. Pre Udon shouldn't be even able to notice him. If somehow in the future Zoro/Luffy avoid or block hybrid this will be a massive speed and reaction feat for them.

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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Reacting to dragon Kaidou is nothing. Even the weaker scabbards could do it. The real test for their speed is how they deal with Hybrid Kaidou's. Not too well I suspect. That would be a better assessment of the speed difference between Luffy and Zoro.


Reacting to wind blades is a good speed feat and Zoro did react to it as casually as it gets. 

Scabbards were overwhelmed by the wind blades sheer speed and invisibility that they couldn't react at all.

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## Maruo (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> Zoro has more than proven enough that his physical stats are great enough to tank, fight, counter YONKOUS LEVEL threat
> 
> Zoro has the power and strength TO OVERPOWER Kaido's attack, OVERPOWER. Pre Udon Luffy ain't doing jack shit to this Zoro. He gets bodied.



How can current Luffy possibly compare to Zoro if this is the case? If this is true, current Zoro low diffs current Luffy at best.



maupp said:


> People keep bringing up FS yet Luffy has been saved like 5 times on the rooftop fight alone by Zoro.



This literally did not happen. He was not _saved_. Luffy handled the exact same attacks or stronger/faster ones just fine without help, whether by dodging or tanking.


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Btw Current Luffy can not overpower Kaido's real attacks aka Tunder Bagua or BM's Sword attacks.

He barely dodges Bagua  a fast attack from Kaido.

And he is visibly damaged by an elemental attack that is meant for him Boro Breath.

That is the standard I am referencing from.

I am not going to say he is so fast that he was neg diffing the wind blades, he no-sold a lightning attack or that he so powerful that he almost cracked Kaido's bones with G3.

I was one of the few that said he was not a low top tier yet in 1000.


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Maruo said:


> How can current Luffy possibly compare to Zoro if this is the case? If this is true, current Zoro low diffs current Luffy at best.
> 
> 
> 
> This literally did not happen. He was not _saved_. Luffy handled the exact same attacks or stronger/faster ones just fine without help, whether by dodging or tanking.


Currently Luffy can compare to Zoro because he was out there tanking Kaido's attacks, "pressurizing" Kaido and most importantly fighting Kaido for more than a minute without getting one shoted.

Zoro saving Luffy did indeed happen and several times so. Luffy could indeed have taken those fire attacks from BM and Kaido but they would have weakened him(Luffy wisthood Boro's breath but he still  incurred damages. He was bloody post Boro tanking). Luffy just couldn't have kept continuously taking Yonkous attacks.

So Zoro dealing with those 2 fire attacks from BM and Kaido saved Luffy from a lot of damages. Also the point is that FS doesn't let Luffy avoid or predict everything otherwise he wouldn't have been in situations were he'd needed intervention or he'd have to tank Yonkous attacks which is bad news for him either ways.

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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> Also the point is that FS doesn't let Luffy avoid or predict everything otherwise he wouldn't have been in situations were he'd needed intervention or he'd have to tank Yonkous attacks which is bad news for him either ways.


So you think Boro breath or fire attacks are faster than Thunder Bagua?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Those 3 are always saying Zoro is above Luffy, taking them serious is a mistake.


i have never said current zoro > current Luffy at any time period. In most time periods, I have Luffy beating him extreme diff. Soemtimes by more.  


Typhon said:


> The cap in this thread for Zoro is egregious lol. The worst has to be Zoro outlasting G4.


Zoro doesn't just outlast pre-Udon G4, Zoro destroys him

Reactions: Winner 3


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> So you think Boro breath or fire attacks are faster than Thunder Bagua?


No the point is that Luffy having FS doesn't let him read every situations or future attacks. Now this could be due to him not being able to activate it all the time or isn't good enough yet to have it perma activated but whatever it is, we've seen Luffy almost taking attacks that he necessarily wouldn't have wanted to.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 15, 2021)

Currently on the rooftop, I honestly think this is the closest Zoro's ever been to Luffy. If we only use what we KNOW they have, I bet you could even make a legit arguement that Zoro could beat Luffy. 

We know for sure that Zoro has Ashura still. We assume Luffy has something up his sleeve still, which is 99% likely, but its still just speculation for now.

So with Zoro essentially being equal to current Luffy, I'd say the best fight pre training Luffy can give Zoro is high diff.

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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> i have never said current zoro > current Luffy


I am not going into that debate again as clearly Formal mods can bait that and current mods can ban when responding to that.
And clearly, you guys form a community that the mods need to protect.


ClannadFan said:


> I bet you could even make a legit arguement that Zoro could beat Luffy.


See ... what I was saying. This when Zoro has failed to land a decisive blow to Kaido while Luffy did more damage than the Scabbards + combined.


ClannadFan said:


> I'd say the best fight pre training Luffy can give Zoro is high diff.


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> No the point is that Luffy having FS doesn't let him read every situations or future attacks. Now this could be due to him not being able to activate it all the time or isn't good enough yet to have it perma activated but whatever it is, we've seen Luffy almost taking attacks that he necessarily wouldn't have wanted to.


Yeah then that doesn't really equate to Luffy needed saving or unable to activate FS considering he was able to foresee a faster attack. It's just for the better of the battle to take down 2 yonkos.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> i have never said current zoro > current Luffy at any time period. In most time periods, I have Luffy beating him extreme diff. Soemtimes by more.
> 
> *Zoro doesn't just outlast pre-Udon G4, Zoro destroys him*


The bolded is what I mentioned in an earlier post of mine, perception. I think some people think G4 Luffy automatically means the other guy in this case Zoro will just be a punching bag until G4 runs out. They still have that Doflamingo's fight in their mind and it is still inconceivable to them that strong characters can actually fight g4 Luffy and not be some helpless punching back like Mingo in Dressrossa. 

This is where the problem lies. You mention G4 and they see Luffy just blitzing and punching a helpless Zoro who has to whistand that beating until it runs out then he can have a chance to do anything. 

What they don't even want to consider is that someone on Rooftop Zoro level should be able to fight Luffy in his g4 form meaning attacking, blocking etc. Someone on that level, a level where he's competing against Yonkous isn't going to be rendered to a helpless punching bag due to Luffy's speed in g4 or whatever else perception they have of that form. 

Some people are still living in Dressrossa and still have this image of G4 Luffy ragdolling Doflamingo and think that applies to a character who is parrying, tanking and damaging Yonkous.

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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Btw G4 From DressRosa is shit vs G4 from wano let alone adding FS.

And it seams we forgot that Dragon form is this fast:


G3 attacks land on this even pre Training.

The only fast attack that kaido showed that is fast for G4 was bagua.

And we have an entire chapter with him taking G3.


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> Yeah then that doesn't really equate to Luffy needed saving or unable to activate FS considering he was able to foresee a faster attack. It's just for the better of the battle to take down 2 yonkos.


But it does equate to that. No Zoro's intervention in those cases and Luffy get hit by those 2 attacks. Heck when BM was about to hit Luffy he wasn't even aware the attack was coming and she was straight up on his face already. 

When Zoro cut BM fire, Luffy was still shaking off the earlier brush from TB and hadn't even realised what was happening just a split second before.

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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> Reacting to wind blades is a good speed feat and Zoro did react to it as casually as it gets.


Nothing suggests the wind blades were anything special in terms of speed. Its track history isn't that great. Luffy went a step beyond and actually charged at them head on while still avoiding three of them in succession like their speed was insignificant by comparison.  Between the supernovas and Scabbards, only one who took damage from it was Kiku, and he actually had his sword in front of him in the scythes trajectory to block it. What he lacked was the power to stop the the scythe from cutting both his sword and his arm. Not surprising, considering Kiku is one of the weakest scabbards. Maybe its invisibility added some degree of difficulty to the receiver, but properly reacting to an invisible attack isn't necessarily a speed feat.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> But it does equate to that. No Zoro's intervention in those cases and Luffy get hit by those 2 attacks. Heck when BM was about to hit Luffy he wasn't even aware the attack was coming and she was straight up on his face already.
> 
> When Zoro cut BM fire, Luffy was still shaking off the earlier brush from TB and hadn't even realised what was happening just a split second before.


True the author just wanted to give some moments to the other SNs but Luffy wouldn't need it if he wasn't in base considering that BM was only able to sneak up since Luffy was barely dodging TB in base.


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> True the author just wanted to give some moments to the other SNs but Luffy wouldn't need it if he wasn't in base considering that BM was only able to sneak up since Luffy was barely dodging TB in base.


He was saved from possible death when Kaido ate him. Though his G4 ran off I agree, but still he was in a life threating situation.

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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

Corax said:


> He was saved from possible death when Kaido ate him. Though his G4 ran off I agree, but still he was in a life threating situation.


I wasn't talking about that scenario.


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## Dunno (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> So you think Boro breath or fire attacks are faster than Thunder Bagua?





Nova said:


> Yeah then that doesn't really equate to Luffy needed saving or unable to activate FS considering he was able to foresee a faster attack. It's just for the better of the battle to take down 2 yonkos.


Luffy was unable to dodge Boro Breath twice. If it really was a much slower attack, shouldn't he have dodged them easily?

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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Luffy was unable to dodge Boro Breath twice. If it really was a much slower attack, shouldn't he have dodged them easily?


Why would he dodge it if he can tank it?


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## Dunno (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> Why would he dodge it if he can tank it?


Because he takes significant damage from it, as we saw. Luffy could tank a lot of Katakuris attacks, but he still dodged them. Luffy isn't tanking attacks just for the fun of it.

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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Because he takes significant damage from it, as we saw. Luffy could tank a lot of Katakuris attacks, but he still dodged them. Luffy isn't tanking attacks just for the fun of it.


Unless I'm reading the wrong scan I don't see significant damage. All he did was scream, which he also did when BM's lightning hit him. He also has the same bruises as before he was hit. Kaido also said "fire is not effective" so I assumed he didn't take much damage from it either. And dodging requires more stamina+time wasted which he lacks with G4+Adv CoA.


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> Why would he dodge it if he can tank it?


Let me debunk a little Dragon Kaido.

This is pre-Udon Luffy in Base:




Chapter 923.

Kaido's Dragon attacks are slow.

He was dodged by pre-Udon Luffy in base, no G2 while caring Speed.


Overpowering the dragon is nothing as G3 is more than enough





@Corax


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Nothing suggests the wind blades were anything special in terms of speed.. Its track history isn't that great.  *Between the supernovas and Scabbards, only one who took damage from it was Kiku,* and he actually had his sword in front of him in the scythes trajectory to block it. What he lacked was the power to stop the the scythe from cutting both his sword and his arm. Not surprising, considering Kiku is one of the weakest scabbards. Maybe its invisibility added some degree of difficulty to the receiver, but properly reacting to an invisible attack isn't necessarily a speed feat.


Check the panel with the wind blades again, the reason only Kiku was hit was because the rest randomly missed rather than the Scabbards avoiding the wind blades themselves. 

They were shown just standing there surprised while the wind blades were flying all over the place missing them and Kiku was the unfortunate soul who was in the path of a wind blade. 

Sure he reacted despite being slow to wind blades attacks (this actually proves another point of mine about someone being able to react to faster attack compared to failing to completely avoid iit but the attack was too fast in itself.

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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

So it seems we forgot Base Luffy vs Dragon Kaido from 923 where he used Boro Breah and that was dodged easily by base Luffy.

The only problem was and still is that Kaido needs special haki to take damage and that his human form Attacks are much much much faster than anything he has shown in Dragon form.

Base Luffy can easily dodge Dragon form kaido before Udon and his G3 attacks land easily.

Base Kaido is a different tier.


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## Dunno (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> Unless I'm reading the wrong scan I don't see significant damage. All he did was scream, which he also did when BM's lightning hit him. He also has the same bruises as before he was hit. Kaido also said "fire is not effective" so I assumed he didn't take much damage from it either. And dodging requires more stamina+time wasted which he lacks with G4+Adv CoA.


Here's Luffy before the Breath:


And here's Luffy after:


Lots more bruises, as well as nose blood. We can't see any marks on the rest of his body because it's all black and shiny, but it was reasonably effected in the same way.

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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> Check the panel with the wind blades again, the reason only Kiku was hit was because the rest randomly missed rather than the Scabbards avoiding the wind blades themselves.
> 
> They were shown just standing there surprised while the wind blades were flying all over the place missing them and Kiku was the unfortunate soul who was in the path of a wind blade.


If they missed then there was no need for the others to dodge it.  Its speed is still nothing compared to an attack like TB, seeing how easily Luffy handled three of them in succession despite charging at them head on. 



			
				Heart Over Blade said:
			
		

> Luffy went a step beyond and actually charged at them head on while still avoiding three of them in succession like their speed was insignificant by comparison.





maupp said:


> Sure he reacted despite being slow to wind blades attacks (this actually proves another point of mine about someone being able to react to faster attack compared to failing to completely avoid iit but the attack was too fast in itself.


So if even Kiku can react to it it still remains to be proven that its speed is anything special.


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> Unless I'm reading the wrong scan I don't see significant damage. All he did was scream, which he also did when BM's lightning hit him. *He also has the same bruises as before he was hit. *Kaido also said "fire is not effective" so I assumed he didn't take much damage from it either. And dodging requires more stamina+time wasted which he lacks with G4+Adv CoA.


Nah, look again at those panels. Pre Boro Luffy had a fresh looking face but post Boro was drawn bloody. Oda wanted to highlight that Luffy could whistand strong attacks hence his  "I'm tough" line afterward otherwise him tanking an ineffective attack against him wouldn't sell that "guts/tough" line well.

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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Lots more bruises, as well as nose blood. We can't see any marks on the rest of his body because it's all black and shiny, but it was reasonably effected in the same way.




mine is diff but it's alright i'll take yours over mine. But I still don't get how flames produce nosebleed???

Anyways, considering that dodging requires more stamina and time and it looks like minimal damage anyway considering Kaido's statement.

Reactions: Like 1


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> *If they missed then there was no need for the others to dodge it*.  Its speed is still nothing compared to an attack like TB, seeing how easily Luffy handled three of them in succession despite charging at them head on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True but in this case there is this underlying fact that they were suprised at what was happening.

When the wind blades already hit and missed (they were shown cutting rocks etc) the Scabbards were shown still bewildered still wondering what just hit.

In fact it's only after the wind blades cut a bunch of rocks that they realized that invisible blades were being thrown at them.


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> mine is diff but it's alright i'll take yours over mine. But I still don't get how flames produce nosebleed???
> 
> Anyways, considering that dodging requires more stamina and time and it looks like minimal damage anyway considering Kaido's statement.


Now compare that panel where he's saying guts to the panel before he gets hit by Boro then gauge how much damage he took.

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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Let me debunk a little Dragon Kaido.
> 
> This is pre-Udon Luffy in Base:
> 
> ...


LOL I thought that was a laser beam

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> LOL I thought that was a laser beam


NO that was Boro Breath, he used it there and before that on the mountain.

So the but his attacks in Dragon form are too fast is a myth.

The only fast attack aka too fast for pre-Udo Luffy's base was TB. He didn't even use G2, maybe he used FS but that is all.

So the myth that pre-Udon G4 is too slow for Current Zoro is another myth as Base Luffy dodged that in base while Caring Speed.
In fact base Luffy is fast enough to dodge current Zoro, maybe not all attack but many.


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> Now compare that panel where he's saying guts to the panel before he gets hit by Boro then gauge how much damage he took.




That's barely anything. I don't know what's to exaggerate about?


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> NO that was Boro Breath, he used it there and before that on the mountain.
> 
> So the but his attacks in Dragon form are too fast is a myth.
> 
> ...


Reminded me of the Pacifista when they're charging their beams

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> Reminded me of the Pacifista when they're charging their beams


Yeah, Oda first showed us like it was a beam.
Either way, Fire is still plasma, light is made from photons so in a way they can be drawn the same.

I have been saying that overpowering Dragon kaido, or dodging his attacks is something that base Luffy can also do pre-Udon.

None of the SN has shown speed feats that Base Luffy did not do before what he has shown now is that calm Luffy can use FS and dodge even the faster moves from Kaido. That is his only speed showing that is way better than before, way better than any of the SN including his Udon self in G4.



What they have shown is that they can damage Kaido, pre Udon Luffy could not.


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Yeah, Oda first showed us like it was a beam.
> Either way, Fire is still plasma, light is made from photons so in a way they can be drawn the same.
> 
> I have been saying that overpowering Dragon kaido, or dodging his attacks is something that base Luffy can also do pre-Udon.
> ...


Yeah, I never got the impression that dragon Kaido nor BM's attacks right now are fast or strong compared to their top speed/attack power considering their forte is physical abilities and elemental attacks are only part of their DF. They're not even like Logia where logias excel in element damage. We'll have to see what hybrid Kaido has to offer.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> Yeah, I never got the impression that dragon Kaido nor BM's attacks right now are fast or strong compared to their top speed/attack power considering their forte is physical abilities and elemental attacks are only part of their DF. They're not even like Logia where logias excel in element damage. We'll have to see what hybrid Kaido has to offer.


If you read what they are actually saving bar Luffy's attack in 1000 and Zoro's missed attack, they didn't take the other attack seriously.

What made them change their mind was the last attack from Luffy where he put all his haki into the most powerful move bar KKG that he has shown until now.


Imagine that Luffy used his haki with his best move and the higher quality one and that did what, ok Linlin let's get serious now.

With current feats all out Kaido and BM would probably start one shooting all 5 soon.


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> We'll have to see what hybrid Kaido has to offer.


To be frank I want him to decimate all of them even Luffy.

I want this to be a big hill to surpass even all 5 combined struggling to put him down.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 15, 2021)

i can't wait for us to return to the roof and get even more feats

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> To be frank I want him to decimate all of them even Luffy.
> 
> I want this to be a big hill to surpass even all 5 combined struggling to put him down.


That's what I'm expecting honestly considering they were struggling with a Kaido who's just tanking moves and spamming AoE. Unless Oda gives the other guys more power-ups idk how they're going to pull out of this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> That's what I'm expecting honestly considering they were struggling with a Kaido who's just tanking moves and spamming AoE. Unless Oda gives the other guys more power-ups idk how they're going to pull out of this.


My bet is that even more will come to help them.

Like a MMO boss and BM will somewhat go elsewhere.


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> My bet is that even more will come to help them.
> 
> Like a MMO boss and BM will somewhat go elsewhere.


Well theres only so much people on Wano rn that's helping the SHs and it seems like everybody's hands are tied. The only hope right now is for SNs to stall as long as possible for Luffy to pull out G5


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## Maruo (Feb 15, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> i can't wait for us to return to the roof and get even more feats



Yeah, there's honestly way too much uncertainty right now. We need more feats of how characters like Zoro handle stronger/faster attacks like Thunder Bagua. We need to see what Luffy and Zoro still have in store. Does Zoro have Asura and Luffy have G5/Awakening? Or does Zoro have Asura and Luffy nothing new? Or does Asura not exist anymore? We don't know.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

For me only Thunder Bagua is a  top tier attack from both Yonko in speed and power.

As it was consistent, it can damage a top-tier defense that G4 has against blunt damage and I  mean one-shots.

It is fast that even top-tier COO FS is still not enough and Base Luffy was dodging Kata so his reflexes are not bad at all.

Even top tiers like Oden were down when their guard was off by taking TB.


If you can block, deflect, clean dodge you have the stats of a top tier for that action.

His dragon form is for AOE and cleaning mid-high tiers.

Base form is to defeat the top of the high tier spectrum or to casually trade blown with top tiers.


And Hybrid is when he wants to win against a top tier or a bunch of top high tiers(current SN).

We already saw that with Lucci, Beast mode was kind of useless, Base was good for when the opponents were strong but not that strong, and Hybrid when he has to fight someone on his level.


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> For me only Thunder Bagua is a  top tier attack from both Yonko in speed and power.
> 
> As it was consistent, it can damage a top-tier defense that G4 has against blunt damage and I  mean one-shots.
> 
> ...


Yeah, even scabbards were dodging/blocking his AoEs so I don't think it looks good even if SNs are doing fine against it. Kaido literally went back to human form to shit on them, which is what I'm expecting Hybrid does to the SNs.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> Yeah, even scabbards were dodging/blocking his AoEs so I don't think it looks good even if SNs are doing fine against it. Kaido literally went back to human form to shit on them, which is what I'm expecting Hybrid does to the SNs.


Yeah, I think I found a way this to continue, They need Marco there fast.

Someone needs to wake up Sanji so he can take on Queen and someone needs to restore some of the Scabbards like Inu, Neku, and Dejio to fight  King.

I mean imagine Marco as the tank next to Kid's robot, also he can heal somewhat.

Zoro + Law to land attacks on Kaido. I even found a way for Zoro to land Enma charged attacks, Similar to how Luffy landed Red Hawk on DD.

Well, they still need Luffy there and someone needs to make BM go away.


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> That's barely anything. I don't know what's to exaggerate about?


Saying it's barely anything is what I would characterize as an exaggeration. The point is that Luffy was visibly impacted by the attack so those subscribing to this idea that Luffy could just continuously take those Boro breath like nothing have got this one wrong.


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> Saying it's barely anything is what I would characterize as an exaggeration. The point is that Luffy was visibly impacted by the attack so those subscribing to this idea that Luffy could just continuously take those Boro breath like nothing have got this one wrong.


I mean you guys like to underrate Luffy's damages against Kaido but overemphasize a few bruises boro breath did. Bruises aren't much considering Luffy is also an endurance freak. Luffy was fine after, proceeded to attack Kaido, acted as if nothing happened. Even Kaido himself didn't consider the attack did significant damage so why should I put an emphasis on it as if it took half of Luffy's health?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

this is after Luffy tanked boro breath then proceed to attack Kaido with Gattling. Does his face looked like he took significant damage or heavily bruised?


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> I mean you guys like to underrate Luffy's damages against Kaido but overemphasize a few bruises boro breath did. Bruises aren't much considering Luffy is also an endurance freak. Luffy was fine after, proceeded to attack Kaido, acted as if nothing happened. Even Kaido himself didn't consider the attack did significant damage so why should I put an emphasis on it as if it took half of Luffy's health?


The emphasis is needed(even if you consider the damage not good enough to stop him which is true) because we're trying to apply this in a scenario where Luffy takes multiple boro hits. 

Sure one Boro isn't enough on its own to greatly damage Luffy but an accumulation of them would, which is why it's important to point out that Luffy got some damages from that one Boro breath.

If we say that Luffy didn't take damage from Boro and straight up tanked it (which he didn't, he whistood it), people will wrongly assume that Luffy could take countless amount of Boro breath unfazed which is why some people think Luffy taking any of those missed attacks(the ones Zoro parried for him) would have been inconsequential.

It's not about 1 attack, it's about an accumulation of attacks. It's important that we clarify that Luffy does indeed take damage from a Boro breath however how not great damages one might think they do, to understand that an accumulation of them would be bad news.


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> straight up tanked


Tanking does not mean he did not take damage.

Kaido is tanking Luffy's hits and he is getting a lot of visible damage, how many does it take for him to go down, who knows.

Maybe he can take 2 or he can take 10, you don't know period.

What Luffy did not tank was TB, Boro was tanked with visible damage.


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> The emphasis is needed(even if you consider the damage not good enough to stop him which is true) because we're trying to apply this in a scenario where Luffy takes multiple boro hits.
> 
> Sure one Boro isn't enough on its own to greatly damage Luffy but an accumulation of them would, which is why it's important to point out that Luffy got some damages from that one Boro breath.
> 
> ...


Sure that may require a lot of boro breaths and we can't gauge the amount and I'm not trying to get into that specific but my original argument was that he tanked it instead of dodging boro breath because his G4 is running out of time which is supported in the next chapter as he ran out of gas immediately after using Kong Gattling on Kaido.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TheWiggian (Feb 15, 2021)

Guess the haters don't like that their headcanon of Zoro being to slow been shattered and his AP is right up there if not higher than Luffy's currently.

His endurance and stamina seems to be equal or higher than Luffy's aswell right now. 1 is out of steam and recharging his haki pool, thanking his partner for carrying and protecting him. Both Killer and Zoro took Big Mom's thunder attack and continued like nothing happened, so Luffy tanking Boro Breath doesn't even look special now.

So yea G2/3 isn't winning against Zoro as things stand now, FS is irrelevant as we see the others performing similarly despite lacking it. In the past I would've said they're about equal because he had no feats while Luffy time took over. Oda seems to disagree and invited the Grandmaster legion to a grand feast.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## Maruo (Feb 15, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> FS is irrelevant as we see the others performing similarly despite lacking it


I honestly don't think anyone other than Luffy and Zoro have shown anything impressive. I have everyone else as still below YC3 level until they show more feats. Tanking Shiva's Wrath should in theory be impressive, but it's hard to say that when there's not much of a way to compare it to other attacks.

I wonder if you all are going to continue claiming Zoro >= Luffy if Luffy ends up not having a G5 or similar power-up. I’ll admit I'm wrong if we end up with a Dressrosa G4 situation again, but I just don't see Zoro having much of a chance against current Luffy based on their currently displayed feats. I admit pre-Udon Luffy vs Zoro would be a very hard fight.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 15, 2021)

Maruo said:


> I honestly don't think anyone other than Luffy and Zoro have shown anything impressive. I have everyone else as still below YC3 level until they show more feats. Tanking Shura's Wrath should in theory be impressive, but it's hard to say that when there's not much of a way to compare it to other attacks.



They haven't shown anything impressive would only be an argument if the only guy with future sight would have impressive observation feats in the first place which other than a singled out TB in 1001, he doesn't have.  

Tanking that lightning and standing in the next panel like nothing happened in the previous is pretty good.


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 15, 2021)

Luffy currently isn't that much stronger than Zoro or barely stronger by actual feats

Zoro is performing just as good as him 

Plus Zoro still has to completely master Enma and show shits like ashura isds etc

Reactions: Like 6


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## fenaker (Feb 15, 2021)

*- Luffy gets clapped in his dressrosa version + pre udon + post udon until he shows some better feats and this Gear 4th time limit which looks like a trash *

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 15, 2021)

fenaker said:


> *- Luffy gets clapped in his dressrosa version + pre udon + post udon until he shows some better feats and this Gear 4th time limit which looks like a trash *



Well post Udon doesn't look like trash but it's nowhere as high as his fans wanked him to be. Everyone thought Luffy will massively outclass Zoro which doesn't seem to be the case.

The other SN's seem to be lacking a bit especially in haki and attack power, they don't even scratch Kaido so far. These tiny wounds aren't slowing him down. You need at least CoA 3.0 like Luffy for blunt attacks to deal some damage or high concentrated haki slashes like Zoro.

I have some trust that Law has a more hax ability than Gamma Knife that can still take some hp while Kid and Killer's haki can potentially bloom in this fight to land some blows that will hurt too.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 15, 2021)

Post udon Luffy isn't trash by any means but some people here thinks that he's on some god tier level compared to Zoro when it's absolutely not true

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2021)

Zoro’s lack of mastery of Enma combined with Luffy’s superior speed I give it to him most of the time but Zoro could win some matches now


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Maruo said:


> I honestly don't think anyone other than Luffy and Zoro have shown anything impressive. I have everyone else as still below YC3 level until they show more feats. Tanking Shiva's Wrath should in theory be impressive, but it's hard to say that when there's not much of a way to compare it to other attacks.
> 
> I wonder if you all are going to continue claiming Zoro >= Luffy if Luffy ends up not having a G5 or similar power-up. I’ll admit I'm wrong if we end up with a Dressrosa G4 situation again, but I just don't see Zoro having much of a chance against current Luffy based on their currently displayed feats. I admit pre-Udon Luffy vs Zoro would be a very hard fight.


Think of it this way, this current Luffy after going all out and exhausting his initial G4 barely managed to push Kaido where he decided to take then seriously but ultimately not close enough to take down Kaido. 

Which means to defeat Kaido Luffy will have to once again step up massively power wise in this very fight to defeat him. The Luffy that will end this fight will be a lot stronger than the current one let alone pre Udon Luffy. 

Zoro looking as good as Luffy currently isn't that surprising considering the fact Oda will likely add on Luffy's strength compared to what he's shown so, Zoro for that matter but Luffy even more so. 

End of Kaido fight Luffy and Zoro will be stronger than their very current version on the roof and these version are stronger than Pre Udon Luffy.


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

LOL, some posts were deleted.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 15, 2021)

I really don't know why people are bringing up speed so much, future sight I can see, but pure speed wise do you guys really think that if Luffy fought Zoro rn, he'd be too fast for him that Zoro would legitamatly struggle to tag him? That just doesn't make sense story wise. Luffy's future sight would give him some good dodges, but realistically Luffy and Zoros speed are relatively close based on how they can fight side by side seamlessly.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I really don't know why people are bringing up speed so much, future sight I can see, but pure speed wise do you guys really think that if Luffy fought Zoro rn, he'd be too fast for him that Zoro would legitamatly struggle to tag him? That just doesn't make sense story wise. Luffy's future sight would give him some good dodges, but realistically Luffy and Zoros speed are relatively close based on how they can fight side by side seamlessly.


When he fights side by side does any of them go all out?

G2 Luffy and Zoro were not having the same speed in EL.

Snakeman and Zoro do not have the same speed now. G4 with gepo and Soru  does not lack that.

Zoro in fact lacks movement speed.

And even in attack speed, please tell me that he is as fast as the moves that accelerate in Snakeman and if you do so them show us the panels where he fought someone as fast as all-out Kata with FS.

Zoro can prove that he is as fast as current Luffy by doing anything to TB, deflect it, dodge it or block it.


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## MrPopo (Feb 15, 2021)

Ren. said:


> LOL, some posts were deleted.


It's because of mbxx doing the data base backup


OT: Luffy wins

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 15, 2021)

Zoro beats pre udon Luffy 
Dunno about post udon 

Atm they're on the same level


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> It's because of mbxx doing the data base backup


I know.

I am also doing a lot of tests on my motherboard and RAM.

I have enough RAM to make a server now.



MrPopo said:


> OT: Luffy wins


Of course, he wins.


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## Grinningfox (Feb 15, 2021)

Luffy for sure

Also what in the world has Zoro shown to prove he can survive a G4 beat down and be in fighting condition?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

Literally every single solid character Pre Udon G4 Luffy has fought survived his beat down and we're wondering how current Zoro would survive. 

Beside there won't be any beat down going on here. G4 isn't going to helplessly smack down Zoro like a bag of confetti, Zoro is well capable of fighting back against G4 Luffy and is more lethal.

Pre Udon G4 Luffy get flattened. Zoro doesn't need to wait for his mode to run out, he has the superior fire power and would simply beat his ass in G4 or our of it.

Pre Udon Luffy ain't cutting it against current Zoro.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2


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## Magentabeard (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> Literally every single solid character Pre Udon G4 Luffy has fought survived his beat down and we're wondering how current Zoro would survive.
> 
> Beside there won't be any beat down going on here. G4 isn't going to helplessly smack down Zoro like a bag of confetti, Zoro is well capable of fighting back against G4 Luffy and is more lethal.
> 
> ...


Maybe people are imagining Luffy's kong gattling against kaido but firstly this is pre-udon Luffy who never showed it (would've used it against Katakuri if he had it).
Luffy has to be careful and on the move the entire time to avoid Zoro's lethal attacks which just runs the clock even more. And finally like you said everyone already survived G4 which is pretty disappointing on Luffy's part.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 15, 2021)

Doffy Cracker Kata etc could take a beatdown from g4 Luffy...why not Zoro who's clearly superior to at least 2 of them

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## maupp (Feb 15, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Doffy Cracker Kata etc could take a beatdown from g4 Luffy...why not Zoro who's clearly superior to at least 2 of them


God knows why some people think Zoro is some glass canon that would fail to survive a mode that any of those characters mentioned survived. I mean we're talking way back to Doflamingo, people already surviving it and somehow Zoro wouldn't? Unless if these people believe that Doflamingo is stronger than current Zoro which wouldn't surprise me to see them think that way given their priors.  

Also unlike those 3 who could let Luffy continuously whistand their attacks, Zoro has ridiculous fire power and extremely lethal that would end Luffy if he makes mistakes and come at him recklessly. 

Honestly don't even know why this is a debate. We're talking about Pre Udon Luffy here, right?

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 15, 2021)

maupp said:


> God knows why some people think Zoro is some glass canon that would fail to survive a mode that any of those characters mentioned survived. I mean we're talking way back to Doflamingo, people already surviving it and somehow Zoro wouldn't? Unless if these people believe that Doflamingo is stronger than current Zoro which wouldn't surprise me to see them think that way given their priors.
> 
> Also unlike those 3 who could let Luffy continuously whistand their attacks, Zoro has ridiculous fire power and extremely lethal that would end Luffy if he makes mistakes and come at him recklessly.
> 
> Honestly don't even know why this is a debate. We're talking about Pre Udon Luffy here, right?


I wouldn't be surprised if some people thinks that Doffy is superior to current Zoro..they really think that the man who can take a named attack big mom without any scratches would just get destroyed by g4 Luffy..I mean fucking Cracker was able to take a beatdown from him lmao 

Yeah this is pre udon Luffy not even post udon 

I have them somewhat on the same level currently


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## Maruo (Feb 15, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if some people thinks that Doffy is superior to current Zoro..they really think that the man who can take a named attack big mom without any scratches would just get destroyed by g4 Luffy..I mean fucking Cracker was able to take a beatdown from him lmao
> 
> Yeah this is pre udon Luffy not even post udon
> 
> I have them somewhat on the same level currently


Pre-Udon Luffy is much stronger than Doflamingo and Cracker. I would not be surprised if Pre-Udon Luffy could win against them without G4. FS would make it much harder for them to land attacks on Luffy and much easier for Luffy to land attacks on them. Luffy's overall stats also increased to some degree since Dressrosa. I think Pre-Udon Luffy, if he is capable of using FS, is Katakuri level, while current Zoro is slightly below Katakuri.

I think the main issue is that we have wildly different views of how much FS matters. Current Luffy only explicitly dodged the first Thunder Bagua in this fight with FS, but that was still the strongest and fastest attack shown by Kaido so far.

Some people here seem to think FS will barely be a factor, while the people thinking Luffy wins here (including me) tend to think that FS is the decisive factor.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if some people thinks that Doffy is superior to current Zoro..they really think that the man who can take a named attack big mom without any scratches would just get destroyed by g4 Luffy..I mean fucking Cracker was able to take a beatdown from him lmao
> 
> Yeah this is pre udon Luffy not even post udon
> 
> I have them somewhat on the same level currently


This is bias af. You're bringing up Doffy and Cracker but fails to mention Luffy's base stats increase as each island goes by.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 15, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Pre-Udon Luffy is much stronger than Doflamingo and Cracker. I would not be surprise if Pre-Udon Luffy could win against them without G4. FS would make it much harder for them to land attacks on Luffy and much easier for Luffy to land attacks on them. Luffy's overall stats also increased to some degree since Dressrosa. I think Pre-Udon Luffy, if he is capable of using FS, is Katakuri level, while current Zoro is slightly below Katakuri.
> 
> I think the main issue is that we have wildly different views of how much FS matters. Current Luffy only explicitly dodged the first Thunder Bagua in this fight with FS, but that was still the strongest and fastest attack shown by Kaido so far.
> 
> Some people here seem to think FS will barely be a factor, while the people thinking Luffy wins here (including me) tend to think that FS is the decisive factor.


I think Luffy would need adv coa to beat them without g4 at least 

I dunno about pré udon Luffy beating them without it..or maybe that he could beat doffy but not sure about Cracker


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> This is bias af. You're bringing up Doffy and Cracker but fails to mention Luffy's base stats increase as each island goes by.


Luffy's base stats increasing doesn't mean that Zoro wouldn't be able to take hits from g4 Luffy when literally anyone he faced could lmao

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zooted (Feb 15, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Luffy's base stats increasing doesn't mean that Zoro wouldn't be able to take hits from g4 Luffy when literally anyone he faced could lmao


You were using Doflamingo and Cracker as examples/feats to justify Pre-Udon Luffy's AP. If your going to use Dressrosa Luffy's AP as feats then might as well use Zoro's endurance/durability from dressrosa as well. I was just pointing out your bias and doesn't have anything to do with Zoro.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Typhon (Feb 15, 2021)

Ah I remember what I said now before those posts got deleted. You guys are on that "should of, could of, would of" energy right now. Still waiting on those actual durability and endurance feats, not just "Well character A survived, so why can't Zoro?!"

Reactions: Like 3


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## ClannadFan (Feb 15, 2021)

Typhon said:


> Ah I remember what I said now before those posts got deleted. You guys are on that "should of, could of, would of" energy right now. Still waiting on those actual durability and endurance feats, not just "Well character A survived, so why can't Zoro?!"


I mean, yeah that's how it works.

Do we have any evidence that Whitebeard could 1 shot or even beat Chopper? No. We must wait until WB vs Chopper happens in the story before we can properly assess that fight. Yes yes.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 15, 2021)

Maruo said:


> but I just don't see Zoro having much of a chance against current Luffy based on their currently displayed feats. I admit pre-Udon Luffy vs Zoro would be a very hard fight.


This is impossible. Looking at feats, Zoro is clearly far superior. It’s not even a question.
Just wait for the next chapters, it’ll be made even more clear


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 15, 2021)

I hope Zoro gets some good ass feats against Hybrid Kaido before losing like tanking his attacks etc

Reactions: Like 1


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## Typhon (Feb 15, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I mean, yeah that's how it works.
> 
> Do we have any evidence that *Whitebeard could 1 shot or even beat Chopper*? No. We must wait until WB vs Chopper happens in the story before we can properly assess that fight. Yes yes.


We do though? What we don't have is evidence that Zoro's endurance and durability is greater then Cracker's or Katakuri's. So if you're going to claim he could take a beating just because they did, show the feats that imply it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 15, 2021)

Typhon said:


> We do though? What we don't have is evidence that Zoro's endurance and durability is greater then Cracker's or Katakuri's. So if you're going to claim he could take a beating just because they did, show the feats that imply it.


We have not seen Chopper being pushed to his limit post time skip. Chopper vs WB cannot be properly debated until then.


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## Typhon (Feb 15, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> We have not seen Chopper being pushed to his limit post time skip. Chopper vs WB cannot be properly debated until then.


Luffy one shot monster point Chopper back on Punk Hazard. Guard point still got injured by a slap from Big Mom. 

Nice try though

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (Feb 15, 2021)

Zoro stomps


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## Dragon D Xebec (Feb 15, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Zoro stomps


So current Zoro also stomp Marco because Dressrosa Luffy who was weaker without FS while being bandaged showed better feat than Marco by bruising an admiral something healthy Marco failed to do to trolling Kizaru.

Reactions: Funny 1 | GODA 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 15, 2021)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> So current Zoro also stomp Marco because Dressrosa Luffy who was weaker without FS while being bandaged showed better feat than Marco by bruising an admiral something healthy Marco failed to do to trolling Kizaru.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dragon D Xebec (Feb 15, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


>


 It is what it is


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## ClannadFan (Feb 15, 2021)

Typhon said:


> Luffy one shot monster point Chopper back on Punk Hazard. Guard point still got injured by a slap from Big Mom.
> 
> Nice try though


And how do we know that Luffy isn't stronger than WB? Luffy hasn't fought WB yet, so we wouldn't know. This is your logic.


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## Typhon (Feb 15, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> And how do we know that Luffy isn't stronger than WB? Luffy hasn't fought WB yet, so we wouldn't know. This is your logic.


Instead of deflecting, you could have just conceded. Now you're just not making sense.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Nova said:


> This is bias af. You're bringing up Doffy and Cracker but fails to mention Luffy's base stats increase as each island goes by.


Only Zoro does that.

@Typhon and @Nova,   don't think logically that they will use the same logic for Luffy that they gave to Zoro.

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Ren. (Feb 15, 2021)

Luffy has superior stats in all bar AP.

He fought Cracker outside G4 for hours so did Katakuri.

Both of them have superior stats to Zoro.

Katakuri is even stronger than Zoro still.

in WCI and Wano he showed he can use G4 for some moves and goes back so FS when Zoro misses an Enma move and KKG him, I even give him the chance to block it.
Then goes back to recharging haki.

But I am hearing that KKG can't do much, also he is not missing it as he has FS and the speed to do so.

So until Zoro shows proper feats that base pre-Udon Luffy can not replicate bar Enma's AP we can talk, until then Luffy wins high diff with G4 and FS.


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## Kroczilla (Feb 16, 2021)

Whelp, looks like we've reached peak zoro wank.

Zoro is gonna tank G4 attacks... because reasons


Zoro will keep up with snake man's speed.... because reasons


Zoro will tag Luffy who on top of a speed advantage, has FS ... because reasons.


*sigh* Luffy mid - high diffs. Landing hits on Dragon Kaido and dodging his attacks is about as impressive a speed feat as pre Udon Luffy using G2 (and he wasn't even using FS). At this stage of the story, it about as impressive as landing a free throw into an Olympic sized swimming pool.

Yes, zoro's AP is massively stronger but Luffy doesn't need to be anywhere near that lvl to absolutely destroy him. 
And said AP is made pointless by the fact that the probability of him landing a hit is next to zero.

I mean, Jesus Christ. Some of the comments from so-called neutral are just outright atrocious.

Like, people are really bringing up Cracker (who got one shot btw) as a point in zoro's favour?


And that's not even mentioning the fact that Luffy got much stronger since.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Corax (Feb 16, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> So yea G2/3 isn't winning against Zoro as things stand now, FS is irrelevant as we see the others performing similarly despite lacking it. In the past I would've said they're about equal because he had no feats while Luffy time took over.


This idea has been always ridiculously funny. I mean Luffy beating Zoro in his outdated modes? Like OP is people's first shonen or they are extremely biased against Zoro.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

There comes a time when common sense has to be used. It's not all about feats. That was my point with the Chopper stuff.

If you guys truly believe that if Zoro fought Luffy in the story, Oda would just make Luffy dodge EVERY SINGLE HIT then you haven't paid any attention to his intent on writing how strong these characters are.

There was never a point in the story where Luffy would mid-diff Zoro. And  some of you are claiming that a weaker version of Luffy would mid diff Zoro. I understand that some people wank Zoro, but this is the opposite. The downplay is bad here. 

FYI I've never been a Zoro wanker, I was on the side of him and Sanji being essentially equals until Zoro got Enma.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Corax (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> There comes a time when common sense has to be used. It's not all about feats. That was my point with the Chopper stuff.
> 
> If you guys truly believe that if Zoro fought Luffy in the story, Oda would just make Luffy dodge EVERY SINGLE HIT then you haven't paid any attention to his intent on writing how strong these characters are.
> 
> ...


The dynamics have been always like this: Zoro with his current upgrade is very high or extreme diff fight for Luffy with his current upgrade. Not  the Luffy with his previous arc upgrade or two-three arcs upgrade.


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> There comes a time when common sense has to be used. It's not all about feats.


You are in the wrong section, PL are always done using feats first, if you don't have feats then you do not debate on that.

If we don't do that we have a situation when people use the hype produced in the last chapters to say that Zoro murders G4.

And if we look carefully Base Luffy was doing pretty much similar pre-Udon vs Dragon Kaido as the 5 SN except the damage, now because the plot dictated to be a many vs 2 fight anyone can miraculously damage Kaido.

So if your perspective is common sense then go to the theory section. In fact outside OL vss are done based only on feats with scans and calc.



Corax said:


> The dynamics have been always like this: Zoro with his current upgrade is very high or extreme diff fight for Luffy with his current upgrade.


False, Zoro was the same until Enma, Enma increase AP nothing more based on feats. If you want to say that he grows each arc so does Luffy.

And we are talking about post-Kata Luffy + FS, not DressRosa Luffy.


Luffy was getting upgrades since DressRosa, FS, G4 experience, and COA.


If you guys don't want to debate based on feast then seriously why are you guys in the Arena?


3 pages we were on the page that because Zoro was doing so much to Dragon Kaido he is on an another level vs G4 when we Know that KKG is a thing from DressRosa and Zoro has never landed a hit in that level, the only one that is sure is the move that he missed vs Kaido.

Furthermore we have chapter 923 that base Luffy does the same as what the SN are doing now but with no damage.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> You are in the wrong section, PL are always done using feats first, if you don't have feats then you do not debate on that.
> 
> If we don't do that we have situation when people use the hype produced in the last chapters to say that Zoro murders G4.
> 
> ...


Sure, because nobody's ever powerscaled before. Tell me again, how do we ever have threads with characters who have never actually fought before?


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## Maruo (Feb 16, 2021)

Corax said:


> The dynamics have been always like this: Zoro with his current upgrade is very high or extreme diff fight for Luffy with his current upgrade. Not  the Luffy with his previous arc upgrade or two-three arcs upgrade.



Really. So you think it would take Dressrosa Luffy with G4 very high or extreme difficulty to defeat Dressrosa Zoro?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Sure, because nobody's ever powerscaled before. Tell me again, how do we ever have threads with characters who have never actually fought before?


Again Zoro just got feats for the last 3 chapters.

So that excuse holds no water.

If it is the generic Zoro never goes all out, well Luffy keeps getting new form and in Wano he never showed KKG, the new gattling and FS, tankman, Snakeman so he never goes all out himself because that was vs Kaido.

In fact, we have half of this thread telling us that those feats are so much better than G4 and 923 disagrees with base Luffy doing mostly the same as non-Enma Zoro vs Dragon Kaido.



Maruo said:


> Really. So you think it would take Dressrosa Luffy with G4 very high or extreme difficulty to defeat Dressrosa Zoro?


Some people think that EL  Zoro gives EL Lyuffy extreme diff or wins because Assura one-shots Kaku.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Really. So you think it would take Dressrosa Luffy with G4 very high or extreme difficulty to defeat Dressrosa Zoro?


Well hindsight is 20 20. Given that Enma only gave Zoro an AP boost, realistically the rest of the feats he's showing on the rooftop should be able to be replicated by DR Zoro. He just never had to go all out until now.


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> realistically the rest of the feats he's showing on the rooftop should be able to be replicated by DR Zoro


You see there is my problem you say that he has the same stats from DR.

Others say that using his feats his stats are above G4 Wano Luffy pre-Udon.

Pre Udon Luffy and DR Luffy in G4 are almost a tier apart.

This is why PL debates are not done with anything other than feats.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Again Zoro just got feats for the last 3 chapters.
> 
> So that excuse holds no water.
> 
> ...


I mean, that's just your interpretation.

Looks like one half of the thread thinks that Zoro's feats against Kaido are more impressive. I'm leaning towards Zoro winning. The difference is, you can clearly tell that some of you have a bias, when you claim it's a mid diff win for either side.


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> when you claim it's a mid diff win for either side.


Good that I never said that high diff is the minimum or extreme diff.



ClannadFan said:


> Looks like one half of the thread thinks that Zoro's feats against Kaido are more impressive.


And I showed chapter 923 that disproves that.

Except for Enma's damage, Zoro has not done more than Base Luffy with G3.

G4 pre udon is Kata+ in stats, if Zoro has the same stats from DR except for Enama then he low diffs DD in DressRosa.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> You see there is my problem you say that he has the same stats from DR.
> 
> Others say that using his feats his stats are above G4 Wano Luffy pre-Udon.
> 
> ...


Well, once again it's common sense. Other than Enma, what upgrade has Zoro gotten since DR?

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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Well, once again it's common sense. Other than Enma, what upgrade has Zoro gotten since DR?


Again if you want to say it is common sense I don't debate common sense in the Arena.

Common sense is subjective, the common sense of 1500 was that the earth was flat and that people should not shower to keep their health. My point is that common sense is dedicated by the interpretation of available information. Zoro got his feats in the last 3 chapters, if you want to say that those put them above pre-Udon G4, I disagree and so does chapter 923.

Common sense + lack of feats is a disaster when Debating Zoro in any forum.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Good that I never said that high diff is the minimum or extreme diff.
> 
> 
> And I showed chapter 923 that disproves that.
> ...


When I said you, I wasn't specifically talking about "you" I was referencing the people who claim that. I could of been more clear but I thought the context clues were there.

I really think that its looking like Zoro was just being slept on by the fans, myself included. Oda clearly showed that he never went all out till now, and he hasnt even actually went all out yet.


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I really think that its looking like Zoro was just being slept on by the fans, myself included.


I don't sleep on him. Zoro always will force a high diff vs Luffy when he gets the same feats or upgrades.

In DressRosa Luffy just got G4 so that was not the case.

In Wano he just got FS.

Enma now does a high diff vs FS Wano Luffy but not with the most broken COA on top, Enma aka not master Enam is not equal to FS+ COA 3.0.

He will show something else and current Zoro will go back to high diff.

What I do not agree is when Luffy gets new moves or top tier stats, Zoro is always an extreme diff because he trains and Oda agreed with me and he gave him an OP sword that most of his fans were saying is a nerf so don't talk about common sense as there is none when discussing Zoro.

Zoro is strong he will be a solid top tier EOS.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Again if you want to say it is common sense I don't debate common sense in the Arena.
> 
> Common sense is subjective, the common sense of 1500 was that the earth was flat and that people should not shower to keep their health. My point is that common sense is dedicated by the wast information. Zoro got his feats in the last 3 chapters, if you want to say that those put them above pre-Udon G4, I disagree and so does chapter 923.
> 
> Common sense + lack of feats is a disaster when Debating Zoro in any forum.


There's really only 3 conclusions you can come up with then.

1: Zoro was always this strong in the post timeskip.

2: Zoro somehow got magically way stronger since DR with no explaination whatsoever.

3: Oda doesn't really care as much as we do when it comes to these details, and in his head Zoro is always just a tick under Luffy, regardless of the feats actually shown.

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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> 3: Oda doesn't really care as much as we do when it comes to these details, and in his head Zoro is always just a tick under Luffy, regardless of the feats actually shown.


Oda does not care.

Also, Oda said the Luffy was always stronger.

Zoro being always just under Luffy is an interpretation from his fans, if you compare feats as I do you will see that he does not.

If he always was just under he could have defeat Lucci in El and that was not the case, he could have done the same to Moria and Ors as Nighmare Luffy did and that was not the case.

He could also defeat or barely lose vs Kata and that was not the case as Luffy needed two PU G4 + FS to even remotely extreme diff.

Or that he could do the same vs Kaido and that is not the case as Luffy was using a new move set Red Rock, Gong Gattling, and 2 more COA levels.

Oda just showed us that when he puts a lot of haki into Enma he misses that is the same as G4 vs DD when he missed defeating him in round 1.

I am done debating Parrales as even when Zoro gest feast we can not compare feats but say that Oda made them always nigh equal so making the debate pointless from before starting.


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## Corax (Feb 16, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Really. So you think it would take Dressrosa Luffy with G4 very high or extreme difficulty to defeat Dressrosa Zoro?


Realistically no way to compare DR Luffy and Zoro directly,since Luffy went all out and Zoro was barely even troubled by his opponent. But going by their 1000+ chapters rivalry? Obviously yes.

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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

Corax said:


> 1000+ chapters rivalry? Obviously yes.


Wait when did Oda make Luffy and Zoro rivals?

Oda explicitly said that Zoro is always the strongest but excluding Luffy,

Luffy's only rival is BB to the PK crown.


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## Corax (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Wait when did Oda make Luffy and Zoro rivals?
> 
> Oda explicitly said that Zoro is always the strongest but excluding Luffy,
> 
> Luffy's only rival is BB to the PK crown.


Within the crew they are rivals. But it doesn't mean that Zoro is his equal. BB is another crew captain.


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

Corax said:


> Within the crew they are rivals. But it doesn't mean that Zoro is his equal. BB is another crew captain.


When did Oda even make such a statement?

Zoro trampled on his pride and went to his rival Mihawk to help Luffy.

That is not a rival.

Oda made so explicitly that Zoro is the strongest in the crew if we exclude his Captain.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Oda does not care.
> 
> Also, Oda said the Luffy was always stronger.
> 
> ...



I mean if we're going by specific examples, Luffys extreme diff fight would look something like this

Luffy 100
Luffy's opponent 99
Zoro 95-98

That I would still consider to be close enough for Zoro to give Luffy an extreme diff fight.

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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I mean if we're going by specific examples, Luffys extreme diff fight would look something like this
> 
> Luffy 100
> Luffy's opponent 99
> ...


I am sorry to say this but Zoro could not defeat Lucci in EL that was made clear by Oda.

And Zoro could not replicate what Nightmare Luffy did in TB and Ors alone destroy the entire crew bar Luffy.

DressRosa Zoro aka WCI Zoro has no chance of doing more than  G4 Luffy and that was a low diff vs Kata.

And those 98/100/are done using feats not common sense.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

And realistically, Luffy's 2 toughest fights, Lucci and Katakuri, Luffy would not of won without plot armor. So yeah Zoro probably wouldn't of fared as well, but Luffy should of lost those fights.

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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

Zoro would not won vs MR1 as he got plot help with getting last moment breath of all things. He was almost getting mid diffed before that as he never even draw blood. Similar to Kata.

Zoro could not have won vs Kaku as he was getting ragged on and not landing any damage before plot gave him Assura similar to Cracker.

Zoro could not have damaged Kaido without Enma and that was so plot given to him similar to Mr1.

So please never say that plot helped Luffy as Zoro is almost the same as Luffy in every situation even more so as his PUs are given last moment and the only reason to why he wins those fights.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Zoro would not won vs MR1 as he got plot help with getting last moment breath of all things.
> Zoro could not have won vs Kaku as he was getting ragged on and not landing any damage before plot gave him Assura.
> 
> Zoro could not have damaged Kaido without Enama and that was so plot give by him.
> ...


The plot help is very different, thats why context matters.

Zoros plot help was last second power ups, while you might not like that, its a power up.

Luffys plot help is literally plot. Like Ussop giving him a speech while Lucci just stands by and watches. And then proceeds to beat him again, then walk away early instead of finishing the job.

Katakuri did not want to win that fight. 

Theres a difference from plot, and last min power ups. Similar but different.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> The plot help is very different, thats why context matters.
> 
> Zoros plot help was last second power ups, while you might not like that, its a power up.
> 
> ...


You make no sense, excuse me for saying that. You are just subjectively separating things based on what you like and what you don't for no reason than to make a point in your favor.

Plot is narration. Zoro was losing vs Mr1 and he gets a PU that makes him win that is plot aka what Oda wanted Zoro to do at the end even if the fight was not in his favor.

Katakuri as Crocodile as Kaido were stronger than Luffy, he was the underdog, they never go all out, this is what happens in RL. In RL I don't get the key of solving my problem before my time is up that is what Zoro gets, Enemies thinking Luffy is dead after he gets crushed by tons of stuff or getting stabbed etc is more reasonable than someone getting the key of the problem last minute.

I mean you are using RL logic but somehow you believe if you try solving a big problem at the end you will get the complex answer without failing once, sorry in RL Zoro would be dead by the hands of Mr1.

This is why I am saying using "common logic" while debating the PL of Zoro in any forum is a mistake so I will stick to feats.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> You make no sense, excuse me to say this.
> 
> Plot is narration. Zoro was losing vs Mr1 and he gets a PU that makes him win that is plot aka what Oda wanted Zoro to do.
> 
> Katakuri as Crocodile as Kaido were stronger than Luffy, he was the underdog, they never go all out, this is what happens in RL. In RL I don't get the key of solving my problem before my time is up that is what Zoro gets, Enmies thinking Luffy is dead after he get crushed by tones of stuff or getting stabbed etc is more reasonable than someone getting the key of the problem last minute.


You aren't making any sense.

While clearly both get plot armor because they are main characters, Zoro actually becomes stronger than Kaku and Mr.1 by the end of the fight, in the Lucci and Kata fight, Luffy does not. Do you see the difference there?

In a vs battle setting, Luffy would lose against those 2 in a rematch. Zoro would win.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Zoro actually becomes stronger than Kaku and Mr.1 by the end of the fight,


By getting a non explained PU.
Assura and Breath of all things are still not explained to this day and you are saying that Luffy not getting crushed by Mochi is worse than that ...



ClannadFan said:


> by the end of the fight, in the Lucci and Kata fight, Luffy does not.


If you actually calculated his feats you will see that at the end he is stronger and he was in those fight that last round of Kata and all the fight with Lucci nigh equal in almost all stats and superior in others.

Zoro was not doing any damage to Mr1 and kaku before those PU similar to the Kata fight.

And as I have been saying Lucci was so much stronger than the others and so was Katakuri.
If Oda made so they get one shot then that would be more of an asspull than FS. This is why from a narration point of View Assura is still an asspull that has no lore to and Oda never used it post TS and I prefer the Enma root as we have lore for this PU.



ClannadFan said:


> In a vs battle setting, Luffy would lose against those 2 in a rematch. Zoro would win.


In a rematch, Luffy only loses the Katakuri fight if he gets no FS. Pre Udon Luffy extreme diff Kata with FS as he has the stats to do so he starts with g2+G3 Stacking with FS and finishes him with Snakeman.

In a rematch vs Lucci he knows all his moves goes all out from start with g2 and ends with G3. He will not eat as many Rokugans as before if any.


The only similar thing in those fights is the Kata fight, FS, breath of all things and Assura are the only reason those fights were won. So again both of them had asspulls and plot shield but Luffy always goes for the much much stronger opponent than himself, Kaido is the only other opponent that Zoro has faced that is miles ahead of himself and as you can see they need all the PU they can get Enma, sonic bladed COA 3.0, GN etc.

I enjoy Zoro more than you guys think.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> By getting a non explained PU.
> Assura and Breath of all things are still not explained to this day and you are saying that Luffy not getting crushed by Mochi is worse than that ...
> 
> 
> ...


While Zoro's power ups were ass pulls, it does not matter in a vs battle setting. 

Lets talk EL specifically.

Zoro was weaker than Kaku. Zoro then became stronger, regardless on your feelings about the power up, this is a fact.

Luffy was weaker than Lucci. Luffy remains weaker than Lucci. Lucci defeats Luffy. Ussop gives a speech. Lucci defeats Luffy again. Luffy then gets up and defeats Lucci. 

In no point of the fight was Luffy actually stronger than Lucci. He was close, but not enough.

Going back to the original point, that is why the gap between Lucci and Zoro seems so big. Because Lucci was actually stronger than Luffy at the time.


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## Jo Ndule (Feb 16, 2021)

Currebt luffy > Fs luffy > Enma zoro

Luffy beats zoro high diff


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> While Zoro's power ups were ass pulls, it does not matter in a vs battle setting.


I am not saying it matters, I am just giving you example of worse plot shields that you gave me.

And yeah I agree only feats matter.


ClannadFan said:


> Luffy was weaker than Lucci. Luffy remains weaker than Lucci. Lucci defeats Luffy


Luffy was not weaker than Lucci, he was faster in G2 and he was stronger in G3, he got weaker because he was using those and Lucci was using Rokugan on his ass.



ClannadFan said:


> In no point of the fight was Luffy actually stronger than Lucci. He was close, but not enough.


Reread the arc , he was stronger than him in G3, in fact, Lucci was KO and if plot did not help him he would be dead as he was propelled outside the tower onto a boat and not in the sea, that was before the Ussoup thing.

G2 was faster than Lucci and packed a lot of power.



ClannadFan said:


> Going back to the original point, that is why the gap between Lucci and Zoro seems so big. Because Lucci was actually stronger than Luffy at the time.


Mate, you are removing context.

Lucci had 4000 doriki while Kaku had 2200.

Lucci mastered his DF as he has so many forms. His hybrid even had forms that use some aspects of rokushiki, he was even regenerating after G3 tanks to those.

Lucci's DF was a carnivore DF and the fastest mammal on land add that to his already mastery of geppo ans Soru

Zoro pre-Assura could not scratch Kakau once and he one-shot him with Assura, while G2 alone was damaging a much stronger tekai.

Lucci was so much better than the rest that he awaken Rokugan aka similar to implosion haki that bypasses Defense, he can not be blocked with Swords btw.

G2 was still faster than a master of Rokuhiki with the fastest mammal DF and was doing damage all the time.

G3 temp KO Lucci that was saved by landing on a boat.

Oda made it clear when Luffy said if I don't defeat you, you will kill my crew that includes Zoro.

Luffy takes on Crocodile, Lucci, Ors Katakuri because they can kill anyone in the crew Zoro included.

The same for Kaido, this is why he does not one-shots them or extreme diffs them.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I am not saying it matter, I am just giving you example of worse plot shields that you gave me.
> 
> 
> Luffy was not weaker than Lucci, he was faster in G2 and he was stronger in G3, he got weaker because he was using those.
> ...


You see how you bring up that Luffy was faster in G2 and stronger in G3? It's too bad he couldn't do both at the same time. When I said Lucci was stronger, I meant as a fighter, not who could hit harder. Overall Lucci was a better fighter, thats why he was winning. Luffys G3 was terrible back then too.


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> You see how you bring up that Luffy was faster in G2 and stronger in G3? It's too bad he couldn't do both at the same time. When I said Lucci was stronger, I meant as a fighter, not who could hit harder. Overall Lucci was a better fighter, thats why he was winning. Luffys G3 was terrible back then too.


So again using similar logic Lucci was lucky as he landed on a boat and not because he was a better fighter, Zoro also won because of Assura not because he was a better fighter etc. That is even a bigger plot shield than Lucy not finishing Luffy quickly as if you read again his own legs were damaged by G3, this is how Luffy won, the strongest G2 pummeling Luci that had his legs affected by G3. That was the problem  Lucci was using gepo and Soru to mitigate some of the damage and Luffy has got more exhausted from using G2. Round 2 he knows better.

Also in fact he could have gone g3+ g2 but you got that in *Thriller Bark vs Moria, it is called Jet shell.*



Luffy also fought before he was not fresh he never is.

He defeated Blueno before even touching Lucy.

And Lucy is not a better fighter, G2 and G3 have side effects as if they do not as G4 Luffy would be too broken. Both are quite equally creative with their DFs.

And I am ending this side debate.

Feat wise Luffy wins vs Current Zoro because of FS and the speed difference. When Zoro gets more feats above that I will give it to Zoro.
@ClannadFan  I loved the talking, thanks.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> So again using similar logic Lucci was lucky as he landed on a boat and not because he was a better  fighter, Zoro also won because of Assura not because he was a better fighter etc. That is even a bigger plot shield than Lucci not finishing Luffy quick as if you read again his own legs were damaged by G3, this is how Lufy won, the strongest G2 pummeling Luci that had his legs affected by G3.
> 
> Also in fact he could have gone g3+ g2 but you got that in *Thriller Bark vs Moria, it is called Jet shell.*
> 
> ...


Luffy was lucky they were fighting by water.

Ashura made Zoro stronger than Kaku.

Agree to disagree on the side debate.

Back on topic, we were just talking about how Ashura made Zoro one shot someone he couldn't hurt before, so wouldn't current Zoro with Ashura mess up Luffy?

I'm done debating the FS part of the arguement, because apparently FS makes Luffy untouchable to anyone without FS.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Luffy was lucky they were fighting by water.


That is funny, I give you that.



ClannadFan said:


> so wouldn't current Zoro with Ashura mess up Luffy?


So would a KKG gattling + G2 on top from Pre Udon Luffy.

Or a King Kobra gattling in Snakeman.

The problem of those as Assura is well none were shown.

And as Asura when they are shown I will not give them back to Pre Udon Luffy and Zoro.



ClannadFan said:


> I'm done debating the FS part of the arguement, because apparently FS makes Luffy untouchable to anyone without FS.


Well see Kata vs Luffy, Boundman was a neg diff because of FS. Boundman man has more AP than Kata an FM, KKG is even in the low tierish AP wise.
Or I can say this, which high tier in wano has landed an attack on Luffy when FS was on? Kaido just missed one on Luffy because of FS.

Zoro is not a top tier with stats to ignore FS. Heck, the only way Luffy dodged TB was because of FS so Asura has no chances of landing as that is a close quarter move.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 16, 2021)

People are so desperate to downplay Zoro they bring up what happened in the past instead of considering how he performs similarly to a current FS, CoA 3.0 and G4 combined Luffy not WCI Luffy Post Katakuri and he even surpasses this Luffy in some stats.

Clearly Oda gives no fuck about the Luffy stans complaining how much he went through to get to the roof while Zoro basically never went all out post TS.

Reactions: Like 6 | Winner 2 | GODA 1


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

Again base Luffy in 923 has performed the same at the SN, bar the damage, we keep ignoring that from the start.

Of course, FS is irrelevant, G4 moves are irrelevant, COA 3.0 is irrelevant.

But again 923 Luffy did to Kaido in Dragon form similar to what Kid did, and he dodged Boro Breath something that no one on the Rooftop did.

As someone said before bring the non AP related feats that the SN did and Base Luffy did not do in 923.

Imaging saying that FS aka COO and COA 3.0 are irrelevant because someone damaged Kaido, So I guess Kiku is somewhat also relevant to G4 in speed, AP,  because he can use COA to damage Kaido.

In fact, this thread is downplaying Katakuri, G4 WCI because again Kiku can damage Kaido, now all the stats that are relevant are related to damaging Kaido, Base Luffy can dodge Boro Breath, pummel with G3  all day Dragon Kaido but damaging Kaido si all that is relevant now.

Clearly, Oda will never make Zoro go all out for the rest of the series if he never brings Asura back as clearly as DressRosa not using KKG Gatling.

I will wait for more feats from Zoro

So you guys know from now on.

*DressRosa Luffy all out is KKG Gatling + G2 for 10m as he has shown KKG G4 + G3 and he has shown Red Rock G2+G3 so his peak is G4+ g3(KKG) + Gatling + G2.*

Oda does care as he used KKKKG in a movie.


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## maupp (Feb 16, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> People are so desperate to downplay Zoro they bring up what happened in the past instead of considering how he performs similarly to a current FS, CoA 3.0 and G4 combined Luffy not WCI Luffy Post Katakuri and he even surpasses this Luffy in some stats.
> 
> *Clearly Oda gives no fuck about the Luffy stans complaining how much he went through to get to the roof while Zoro basically never went all out post TS.*


This is the best part of it all. Oda doesn't give a single damn that he's dedicated hundreds of chapters on Luffy's fights and gradual progression strength wise, he only cares about how he wants to portray his characters.

This fact rattles a lot of Luffy stans who feel it's unfair that Zoro could make these huge jumps "undeservedly", so they cope by going around battledome and library threads claiming that past versions of Luffy would beat current Zoro, same current Zoro who is performing similarly to their jesus on his current level.

Sure let's just believe a version of Luffy that is several times weaker than his current self is going to beat current Zoro who is performing on par with current Luffy. I can't even.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 3


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## ho11ow (Feb 16, 2021)

maupp said:


> This is the best part of it all. Oda doesn't give a single damn that he's dedicated hundreds of chapters on Luffy's fights and gradual progression strength wise, he only cares about how he wants to portray his characters.
> 
> *This fact rattles a lot of Luffy stans who feel it's unfair that Zoro could make these huge jumps "undeservedly", so they cope by going around battledome and library threads claiming that past versions of Luffy would beat current Zoro, same current Zoro who is performing similarly to their jesus on his current level.*
> 
> Sure let's just believe a version of Luffy that is several times weaker than his current self is going to beat current Zoro who is performing on par with current Luffy. I can't even.


Luffy Stan low key want a hundred chapters dedicated to Zoro fighting

Reactions: Funny 1


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## maupp (Feb 16, 2021)

ho11ow said:


> Luffy Stan low key want a hundred chapters dedicated to Zoro fighting


These folks want their cake and eat it to. They never want to see Oda focus on Zoro and want Luffy to always dominate panel time yet they are the very same people that would complain that it's not fair Zoro is making huge power jumps without going through a long list of opponents.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## TheWiggian (Feb 16, 2021)

ho11ow said:


> Luffy Stan low key want a hundred chapters dedicated to Zoro fighting



Then he would complain what a boring and bland character Zoro is, remaining below most characters on his level regardless. Then he will say he doesn't hate Zoro or swordsmen and that his favourite characters and mangas are swordsmen/about them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Maruo (Feb 16, 2021)

ho11ow said:


> Luffy Stan low key want a hundred chapters dedicated to Zoro fighting


Unironically yes



maupp said:


> want Luffy to always dominate panel time yet



Maybe others want Oda to do this, but this is one of the main reasons why post-skip One Piece is much worse than pre-skip.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

I can understand why Luffy stans would be pissed off..Luffy had to go through doffy Cracker Katakuri and learn acoa+fs to be this strong..just for Zoro to get Enma and be just as strong as current Luffy

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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

G4 time limit is only a problem for people that are stronger then luffy... With Fs, Zoro ain’t hitting Luffy once

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Literally everyone Luffy has faced could hit him even tho he has fs but Zoro cant    ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Literally everyone Luffy has faced could hit him even tho he has fs but Zoro cant    ?


Who?  
When he is facing multiple opponents? When he is preserving his strength or when he is fighting a yonko?


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> Who?
> When he is facing multiple opponents? When he is preserving his strength or when he is fighting a yonko?


All of them


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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> All of them


So no one... well back to square one.
Zoro can’t tag Luffy and gets low diff if not stomped.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> So no one... well back to square one.
> Zoro can’t tag Luffy and gets low diff if not stomped.


Yeah only in two piece

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Yeah only in two piece


Once you have actual words and feats,
Come back.
Now run along and find a sword to stick up your ass

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> Once you have actual words and feats,
> Come back.
> Now run along and find a sword to stick up your ass


Literally everyone who faced Luffy could tag him at least once but Zoro cant because ??? 

Ur kinda stupid

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 6


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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Literally everyone who faced Luffy could tag him at least once but Zoro cant because ???
> 
> Ur kinda stupid


Who is everyone?

says the one that can’t even spell right, given your fan base I expect as much though.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> Who is everyone?
> 
> says the one that can’t even spell right, given your fan base I expect as much though.


Katakuri doffy Cracker Ulti BM/Dragon kaido Literally anyone that faced him and damn Zoro who's performing as well as current Luffy will not be able to tag pre udon Luffy at least once..the Luffy wank here..

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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Bruh Zoro's who doing just as well as current Luffy and portrayed to be close to him against the yonkos will not be able to at least hit à way weaker version of him...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Katakuri doffy Cracker Ulti BM/Dragon kaido Literally anyone that faced him and damn Zoro who's performing as well as current Luffy will not be able to tag pre udon Luffy at least once..the Luffy wank here..


So... again, what exactly have you read and understood? I’ll do a list to make it easier.

DD- stronger then that version luffy and luffy has no Fs. 

Cracker- again mismatch but again no Fs for luffy here. 

kata- way stronger then luffy at the start of the fight and luffy did not have Fs till the end and he was facing... yes, a Fs user. 

Ulti AND P1- a two vs 1 in again, where luffy is holding himself back to save stamina.

BM/ Kaidou- two yonko need I say more.

Zoro is not performing as well as Luffy, that is fanfic of the highest order... Luffy has done much more then the other 4 put together, Luffys stats are above all the others minus stamina but given the difference in speed/ strength/ durabilty/ endurance and every base stat there is... stamina is but a trivial stat.

luffy is on another level compared to Zoro currently, unlikely for Zoros the only things that have grown for luffy is his haki and strength but that was all at a top level to begin with in comparison to his peers.
So again, drop that two piece and fanfic your read on this forum and read the damn manga. Luffy is miles ahead of everyone and an increase in AP is not close to enough to close the gap for everything else.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Dunno (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> So... again, what exactly have you read and understood? I’ll do a list to make it easier.
> 
> DD- stronger then that version luffy and luffy has no Fs.
> 
> ...


Zoro has done more against Kaido than Luffy has, even though Luffy has gone all out and now needs to be carried around like a toddler. All Luffy's entire barrage managed to do was make Kaido use a move that Zoro overpowered. Zoro on the other hand made Kaido use a significantly stronger move and then go hybrid. This is due to the fact that Luffy's attack power when he goes all out is still way below Zoro's. I'm not sure what manga you are reading, but it doesn't seem to be One Piece. The only reason to rate current Luffy above Zoro is because of what you expect him to do in the future, for example G5.

Reactions: Like 8


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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Zoro has done more against Kaido than Luffy has, even though Luffy has gone all out and now needs to be carried around like a toddler. All Luffy's entire barrage managed to do was make Kaido use a move that Zoro overpowered. Zoro on the other hand made Kaido use a significantly stronger move and then go hybrid. This is due to the fact that Luffy's attack power when he goes all out is still way below Zoro's. I'm not sure what manga you are reading, but it doesn't seem to be One Piece. The only reason to rate current Luffy above Zoro is because of what you expect him to do in the future, for example G5.


No he hasn’t... that’s your fanfic, go read the last couple chapters agin.
You better go reread the chapters again.:. Everything  you’ve said has been a lie.

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## Dunno (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> No he hasn’t... that’s your fanfic, go read the last couple chapters agin.
> You better go reread the chapters again.:. Everything  you’ve said has been a lie.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> So... again, what exactly have you read and understood? I’ll do a list to make it easier.
> 
> DD- stronger then that version luffy and luffy has no Fs.
> 
> ...


How is Zoro not performing as well as Luffy ? Lmfao ?

He overpowered Kaido's attack and saved Luffy and the novas
He had 2 yonko shitting their pants 2 chap ago 

He took a named attack from BM without damages just like Luffy did against Kaido

He's legit babysitting Luffy while fighting Kaido

He did almost as much damages as g4 Luffy with a freaking Tatsumaki attack 

He could cut bm's prometheus before she could even land an attack at point blank range 

Show me Luffy being far superior cause atm he isn't

Reactions: Like 8 | Winner 1


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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> How is Zoro not performing as well as Luffy ? Lmfao ?
> 
> He overpowered Kaido's attack and saved Luffy and the novas
> He had 2 yonko shitting their pants 2 chap ago
> ...


Because Luffy is performing the best by far lol.

luffy tanked back to back hits from yonko and pummelled Kaidou to the floor lol.

that’s what every SN did and luffy has taken more, he took 3 full attacks and just about dodged TB, Zoro has only tanked one alongside everyone else.

Yeah, in the fanfic for Zorotards maybe, but Luffy has been perfectly fine by himself, Maybe read the manga and you’ll notice the only person that the yonko are after is Luffy, not Zoro or law or any else up there.


He hasn’t come close to doing the damage luffy has done lol, Zoro has only hurt a Kaidou one time and I get that you guys aren’t  the smartest of the bunch and can’t really the difference but a cutting attack does look more lethal in general but luffy has done the most damage here, it’s not even a competition.

Luffy blitzed BM/ Kaidou at the start of the fight, bringing Brook/ Franky  level feats does not bring him to the shoes of luffy.

if the manga isn’t enough, my next words of advice would be to just stop here and quit reading this, clearly not for you.

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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> Because Luffy is performing the best by far lol.
> 
> luffy tanked back to back hits from yonko and pummelled Kaidou to the floor lol.
> 
> ...


None of that shows Luffy is farr superior. Maybe you can say equal because Luffy currently a liability getting dragged around.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> No he hasn’t... that’s your fanfic, go read the last couple chapters agin.
> You better go reread the chapters again.:. Everything  you’ve said has been a lie.


Out of everyone here, you're clearly the most biased lmao. If you really think Zoro gets no diff'd, you have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old. If Luffys first mate is that weak, he would have no use for him.

Did all the Luffy fans just choose to conveinently forget that Apoo fucked him up?

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## maupp (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Katakuri doffy Cracker Ulti BM/Dragon kaido Literally anyone that faced him and damn Zoro who's performing as well as current Luffy will not be able to tag pre udon Luffy at least once..the Luffy wank here..


Speaking of Ulti, how did she manage to grab untouchable and untaggable FS Luffy? 

People relying on FS as an argument are hilarious. When that shit allows Luffy to not get tagged by fodders(relative to Zoro) like Ulti then we can talk, otherwise get off the shrooms my good people.

Reactions: Like 5 | Funny 2


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## maupp (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> How is Zoro not performing as well as Luffy ? Lmfao ?
> 
> He overpowered Kaido's attack and saved Luffy and the novas
> He had 2 yonko shitting their pants 2 chap ago
> ...


Had Kidd done half the stuff Zoro has done on the roof so far, @Beast would have claimed that he is Shanks level and would have made several threads perpetrating those claims.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> None of that shows Luffy is farr superior. Maybe you can say equal because Luffy currently a liability getting dragged around.


So tanking more hits and doing ‘ore damage... means They’re on the same level? That’s a joke.



ClannadFan said:


> Out of everyone here, you're clearly the most biased lmao. If you really think Zoro gets no diff'd, you have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old. If Luffys first mate is that weak, he would have no use for him.
> 
> Did all the Luffy fans just choose to conveinently forget that Apoo fucked him up?


Maybe you should go back to where it is you we’re hiding because... last I remember luffy is better in every stat and has better haki... I don’t see how in a 1v1 with PIS/ CIS Zoro isn’t low diff by Luffy. The feats speak for themselves.

Zoro isn’t weak... Luffy is just that strong, go read chapter 1000 again.




maupp said:


> Had Kidd done half the stuff Zoro has done on the roof so far, @Beast would have claimed that he is Shanks level and would have made several threads perpetrating those claims.


Lol, that’s desperation is at an all time high.
I mean when you find feats and panels for Zoro being better then luffy at anything bar stamina... and I’ll concede.
You don’t seem me making threads saying Kidd is stronger then insert name here.
you’re the same guy that thinks Luffys needs to be rid of the 10 mins break to beat Zoro lol.
And funny you bring up Ulti... I mean I think it’s speaks for itself, Luffy vs 2 opponents against Zoro vs 2 even weaker opponents, if you want to have fun why don’t you make a Kamazou x Fox vs Ulti and p1 lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> So tanking more hits and doing ‘ore damage... means They’re on the same level? That’s a joke.
> 
> 
> Maybe you should go back to where it is you we’re hiding because... last I remember luffy is better in every stat and has better haki... I don’t see how in a 1v1 with PIS/ CIS Zoro isn’t low diff by Luffy. The feats speak for themselves.
> ...


Luffy only got hit twice.  Zoro got hit by lightning and was in mid air so he fell too. So basically got damaged falling. Zoro countered 1 of BM moves and 2 of Kaidos. Kaido biggest move so far was countered by Zoro. Currently Luffy is wasting Zoro energy by looking out for him.

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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Luffy only got hit twice.  Zoro got hit by lightning and was in mid air so he fell too. So basically got damaged falling. Zoro countered 1 of BM moves and 2 of Kaidos. Kaido biggest move so far was countered by Zoro. Currently Luffy is wasting Zoro energy by looking out for him.


3x go read the manga. You’ll get a lot further when you read and not just look at pictures. Zoro tanked about as much as Killer since you want to bring up ‘falling’ as some sort of second damage lol. 
Kaidous biggest move? Lol, you really need to read the last few chapters again mate... the one Zoro countered as mini attack and Kaidous releases a lot more power with his second one that overpowered Zoros.

clearly you haven’t read shit and just talk out your ass, I think you’re a perfect representations of what the ZKK legion is about.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> So tanking more hits and doing ‘ore damage... means They’re on the same level? That’s a joke.
> 
> 
> Maybe you should go back to where it is you we’re hiding because... last I remember luffy is better in every stat and has better haki... I don’t see how in a 1v1 with PIS/ CIS Zoro isn’t low diff by Luffy. The feats speak for themselves.
> ...


I really can't tell if you're trolling, or you just have Luffy's meat so far down your throat that you can't comprehend the manga anymore. They do say love is blind.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I really can't tell if you're trolling, or you just have Luffy's meat so far down your throat that you can't comprehend the manga anymore. They do say love is blind.


Says the guy that thinks Zoro beats luffy... because what again? 
I still have yet to see you post one reply that Has a shed of knowledge regarding anything nevermind OP and the discussion at hand.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> 3x go read the manga. You’ll get a lot further when you read and not just look at pictures. Zoro tanked about as much as Killer since you want to bring up ‘falling’ as some sort of second damage lol.
> Kaidous biggest move? Lol, you really need to read the last few chapters again mate... the one Zoro countered as mini attack and Kaidous releases a lot more power with his second one that overpowered Zoros.
> 
> clearly you haven’t read shit and just talk out your ass, I think you’re a perfect representations of what the ZKK legion is about.


Yes Zoro tanked just has much has Killer. Whats your point, just proves What Luffy tanked ain't shit. How you describe it has a mini attack. Lmao that shit was at Kaido height that got countered and had supernovas spinning. Funny how you didn't address Luffy being a liability wasting Zoro energy. Zoro has saved Luffy like 5 times this fight, he baby sitting him while injuring Kaido. You can't explain how Mr. Liability has been more impressive then Zoro. Cause your dumbass taught Kidd would have better potrayal then him. You the perfect representation for Zoro hater

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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> Says the guy that thinks Zoro beats luffy... because what again?
> I still have yet to see you post one reply that Has a shed of knowledge regarding anything nevermind OP and the discussion at hand.


Said the guy who thinks Kidd would look better than Zoro

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Beast (Feb 16, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Yes Zoro tanked just has much has Killer. Whats your point, just proves What Luffy tanked ain't shit. How you describe it has a mini attack. Lmao that shit was at Kaido height that got countered and had supernovas spinning. Funny how you didn't address Luffy being a liability wasting Zoro energy. Zoro has saved Luffy like 5 times this fight, he baby sitting him while injuring Kaido. You can't explain how Mr. Liability has been more impressive then Zoro. Cause your dumbass taught Kidd would have better potrayal then him. You the perfect representation for Zoro hater


Luffy tanked more, go and read back, clearly you’ve lost the plot. Because it has nothing to do with the thread hence why it doesn’t matter, luffy has shown us he can fight without the use of haki and G4 against strong opponents, not that Zoro would survive that long to begin with.

I don’t need to explain when everything is in the manga, if luffy wasn’t on the roof ... the SNs would already be hopeless given the feats we’ve seen.

and again, luffy running out of gas has nothing to do with Zoro ok the roof not Zoro in this thread.


Jujubatman12 said:


> Said the guy who thinks Kidd would look better than Zoro


Says the guy... well, look at that I don’t know shut about you.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> Says the guy that thinks Zoro beats luffy... because what again?
> I still have yet to see you post one reply that Has a shed of knowledge regarding anything nevermind OP and the discussion at hand.


I've already given my reasons, just not while talking to you because Luffy's gomu gomu schlong is keeping you busy.

You gotta learn how to read. Looks like its more than just One Piece you have a hard time comprehending.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## maupp (Feb 16, 2021)

Zoro is literally the only one on that rooftop fight that has actually countered a Yonkou attack and overpowered it. An attack that had everyone helpless (Luffy could be excused because he was drained but Kidd, Law, Killer were being spun around by the massive tornados) yet Zoro countered with his own tornado and *OVERPOWERED* Kaido's one.

I don't think some people have actually grasped the magnitude of how impressive that feat is, especially with respect to his peers from the same generation.

Everyone else on that rooftop are being given free hits by Kaido but when it comes to Zoro Kaido is noping out of the way. How is that for hype. Who else on that roof has that level of hype so far?

Aside from Luffy who has been attacked and managed to attack back (took a Boro breath and proceeded to spam his gattlinga attacks), Zoro is the other one who has landed an attack after being attacked (from Kaido's tornados).

While Luffy is handed the most panel time on that roof so far, Zoro has still performed similarly to him and some might say better(caused the most visible damage we've seen from Kaido's with a fodders cleaning move of his).

And despite all that Luffy is out catching his breath and recouping because he's out of juice while *Zoro is fending off 2 Yonkous while protecting Luffy at the same time. *

Current Luffy who is stronger than Pre Udon Luffy hasn't managed to outperform current Zoro despite blowing his entire load so far and being exhausted, while Zoro after performing similarly to him has to protect him. Yet this very beast is being compared to Pre Udon Luffy. 

Current Luffy has to come up with whatever power up, mode or whatever Oda will hand him to prove that he's stronger than current Zoro because currently he hasn't looked so.

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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> Luffy tanked more, go and read back, clearly you’ve lost the plot. Because it has nothing to do with the thread hence why it doesn’t matter, luffy has shown us he can fight without the use of haki and G4 against strong opponents, not that Zoro would survive that long to begin with.
> 
> I don’t need to explain when everything is in the manga, if luffy wasn’t on the roof ... the SNs would already be hopeless given the feats we’ve seen.
> 
> ...


1. Luffy got saved by Zoro from taking damage 5 times in this fight.
2. Countered Kaido Tornado that were sucking up all the supernovas.
3. Luffy got himself captured and was about to get chewed up and got saved by Zoro
4. Speed blitz BM before she can hit Luffy. Dodged BM attack.
5. Luffy got help all those times he had no Haki. He has never spend full 10 minutes fighting by himself against a strong opponent.
6. Luffy being a liability and wasting Zoro energy. This distract from Luffy performance no matter if you want to avoid it.
7. Luffy would be dead if Zoro wasn't up top.

Says the clown guy who thinks Zoro didn't come here to fight Kaido. Reread and pay attention next time. Lol Orochi

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

maupp said:


> Speaking of Ulti, how did she manage to grab untouchable and untaggable FS Luffy?
> 
> People relying on FS as an argument are hilarious. When that shit allows Luffy to not get tagged by fodders(relative to Zoro) like Ulti then we can talk, otherwise get off the shrooms my good people.


Lol this shit is killing me
Fucking Ulti was able to grab his ass..Kaido's boro breath and BM indra's tagged him too..but but muh muh god tier fs Luffy CaNt bE tAgGeD

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## ho11ow (Feb 16, 2021)

I'm just wondering why Luffy run away from Apoo? If his pre-udon version fast enough to blitz Zoro who is fast enough blitz Apoo, shouldn't current Luffy who is faster than pre-udon himself can easily blitz Apoo no diff?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ho11ow (Feb 16, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> 1. Luffy got saved by Zoro from taking damage 5 times in this fight.
> 2. Countered Kaido Tornado that were sucking up all the supernovas.
> 3. Luffy got himself captured and was about to get chewed up and got saved by Zoro
> 4. Speed blitz BM before she can hit Luffy. Dodged BM attack.
> ...


Luffy clearly saving his strength and didn't use COA 3.0, his stan said so

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 16, 2021)

ho11ow said:


> Luffy clearly saving his strength and didn't use COA 3.0, his stan said so



No his CoA 3.0 firepower been hype to have way more ap than the Oden Haki thing Zoro is holding in his hand


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## fenaker (Feb 16, 2021)

*Until luffy stans explain why their master became an hindrance for Zoro in this fight then Zoro > post udon luffy *

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> Says the guy that thinks Zoro beats luffy... because what again?
> I still have yet to see you post one reply that Has a shed of knowledge regarding anything nevermind OP and the discussion at hand.


Ok, are they accusing you of being a Luffy stan? You of all people ...  

Damn ... this is amusing to say at least.

I don't even bother reading as they have yet to prove SN have done better than 923 Luffy vs Kaido's dragon form.


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

Beast said:


> Zoro is not performing as well as Luffy, that is fanfic of the highest order...* Luffy has done much more then the other 4 put together, Luffys stats are above all the others minus stamina but given the difference in speed/ strength/ durabilty/ endurance and every base stat there is... stamina is but a trivial stat.*


And you are a Kid fan for the plebs to understand.
@Beast  my respect.



Beast said:


> Because Luffy is performing the best by far lol.
> 
> luffy tanked back to back hits from yonko and pummelled Kaidou to the floor lol.
> 
> ...


Bingo.


Beast said:


> because what again?


"Common sense", he is performing as well as base Luffy in 932 bar AP thanks to Enma.

I am still amused they called you a Luffy stan ... after the shit you have given me regarding Luffy  

And regarding the Dragon twister thing:




This is BM using her raw strength and  Prometheus aka not only her elemental attack and Luffy was using G3 pre Wano and wait we also have Sanji there from the side.

We can add that to what Luffy did in G3 to Kaido. Dodging Boro Breath and pummeling the Dragon with G3.



ice demon slayer said:


> Kaido's boro breath



*Spoiler*: __ 












Jujubatman12 said:


> 4. Speed blitz BM before she can hit Luffy. Dodged BM attack.



*Spoiler*: __ 













That is only Base Luffy and FS, not even G2 after a series of dodge Kaido, hit Kaido, sense BM.

And there is even a 4th attack from Kaido against Base Luffy saved by Law but using the other 3 scenarios at worst he can barely escape.

The 2 Yonko only want to attack Luffy but somehow Luffy needs to be saved by Zoro.

The Zoro is too strong for G4 is again misguided judgment base on nothing but "common" sense.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zooted (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> And you are a Kid fan for the plebs to understand.
> @Beast  my respect.
> 
> 
> ...


Don't bother pulling up panels. Some people really pulling out Luffy's dressrosa feats to use as Wano feats. Really shows their credibility in a discussion.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

Nova said:


> Don't bother pulling up panels. Some people really pulling out Luffy's dressrosa feats to use as Wano feats. Really shows their credibility in a discussion.


O those were not for them.

I know most of them, they even said now that Current Zoro has a chance to defeat current Luffy based on again nothing, some of them are posting that Zoro has better COA when Luffy is the only one in Wano with all 3 levels of COA, that is not even possible to misinterpret since Udon.

Zoro legitimately has done the least damage from all  SN bar Kid and they are posing that his AP >>>> Luffy's,  even his G3 draws blood and has the most number of attacks that landed and that did damage visibly as Oda draws blood from each attack.

I mean legitimately  Kaido thinks his COA puts his damage next to Oden, Oden that uses 2 swords similar to Enma, and that was the weakest individual that Kaido put Luffy next.

While on other threads Zoro is more durable than Sanji because he has swords  

This is me just posting those for myself.


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## Zooted (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> O those were not for them.
> 
> I know most of them, they even said now that Current Zoro has a chance to defeat current Luffy based on again nothing, some of them are posting that Zoro has better COA when Luffy is the only one in Wano with all 3 levels of COA, that is not even possible to misinterpret since Udon.
> 
> ...


Yeah the slash that threatened Kaido can't even hit a giant dragon let alone Snakeman speed+FS and it also drained a lot out of Zoro to gain that type of AP.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

Nova said:


> Yeah the slash that threatened Kaido can't even hit a giant dragon let alone Snakeman speed+FS and it also drained a lot out of Zoro to gain that type of AP.


Forget about Snakeman, I keep posting panels where  Luffy dodges attacks from Kaido in Dragon form and Human form in base not even with G2.

FS is a legit top top tier skill that only one individual has shown, even 2 Yonkos and Ray do not have it, but I am supposed to be impressed by one non mastered sword when I saw 2 mastered swords by Oden.

Again the only real visible damage that Zoro did was from his Tornado and that is minimal as he was using all 3 swords and only Enma can do damage.


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## Zooted (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Forget about Snakeman, I keep posting panels where  Luffy dodges attacks from Kaido in Dragon form and Human form in base not even with G2.
> 
> FS is a legit top top tier skill that only one individual has shown, even 2 Yonkos and Ray do not have it, but I am supposed to be impressed by one non mastered sword when I saw 2 mastered swords by Oden.
> 
> Again the only real visible damage that Zoro did was from his Tornado and that is minimal as he was using all 3 swords and only Enma can do damage.


Also another panel:

And I'm supposed to believe dragon Kaido's attacks are fast

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Maruo (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Zoro legitimately has done the least damage from all SN bar Kid



What

Zoro has done far more damage than any Supernova other than Luffy. None of the other Supernovas come close. There is no sign that Law's Gamma Knife and Countershock or Killer's attack did anything substantial.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

Maruo said:


> There is no sign that Law's Gamma Knife


Hear yourself.



Maruo said:


> Killer's attack did anything substantial.


Zoro's only attack that landed and did visible damage was the tornado one.

I am sorry I am putting the Sonic move above that as you can see Kaido's expression.

And GN is a no-brainer, I put that above any attack bar Luffy's final one on Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Maruo (Feb 16, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Hear yourself.
> 
> 
> Zoro's only attack that landed and did visible damage was the tornado one.
> ...



What exactly did Gamma Knife do to Kaido?

I guess you're thinking we're supposed to assume it did some large amount of internal damage? There's really no indication of this though. It was portrayed in the same light as Kid's and Killer's attack. All of these attacks were given one panel and that's it. The goal was to portray the fact that, technically speaking, all the Supernovas are capable of inflicting some damage to Kaido.

Zoro's attack and the power of Enma, on the other hand, were built up not only in the previous chapter with Kaido's and BM's reaction to it but also during prior parts of the arc. When Zoro's attack landed, it drew a huge amount of blood. Granted, it's much easier for blades to draw blood than blunt attacks, but you can't deny the portrayal here.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Feb 16, 2021)

Maruo said:


> What exactly did Gamma Knife do to Kaido?
> 
> I guess you're thinking we're supposed to assume it did some large amount of internal damage? There's really no indication of this though. It was portrayed in the same light as Kid's and Killer's attack.


Internal damage, as that is the point of GN.
I can't show the damage as this is hard to show but we know that in fact this should melt your organs, I am putting this at maybe second to only Luffy's final gattling.

We have Killer and Zoro.

Did nothing here:


Killer:

*Spoiler*: __ 










Zoro:

*Spoiler*: __ 









Now Luffy:

*Spoiler*: __ 















We know for sure who did the worst Kid.

I am giving Law second place because of the nature of GN, maybe it did nothing but after that Kaido said all can bypass his durability.

You can exchange Zoro and Killer, both did one with damage, both drew blood one from inside the other from outside.


and then it is Luffy that has damaged Kaido with each attack.

And the context was Zoro's COA is better and he has better AP.

Again it was never about raw power but COA quality as Kiku can damage Kaido, Kong Organ can't while Red Rock can, even the ninja managed to wound Kaido with his sword.


The only individual that has evaded Kaido in dragon form and base is Luffy.
The only individual that has wounded Kaido while he was in base and superior form was Luffy, the only one that wounded Base and Dragon Kaido was Luffy.

The only one that tanked a full one move from Kaido is Luffy, the only one that dodged the fastest move from Kaido is Luffy.


And again Luffy faced BM alone, faced Dragon Kaido alone.

Dodge base Kaido 2 times in base alone, one time his Dragon form.

While Kaido attacks him first, he dodged, then he attacked him, then BM attacked him and he sensed her.

From where the Stats come for Zoro to be above where Base Luffy is doing all this stuff from WCI against BM and from chapter 923 with Kaido.

And @Nova  I had this conversation with the same people from well before wano. Wait for Feats, yes we got them, he is not doing something that Base Luffy can not replicate in 923 outside Enma attacks.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Typhon (Feb 16, 2021)

Why not quote me? Almost missed this shade


ClannadFan said:


> There comes a time when common sense has to be used. It's not all about feats. That was my point with the Chopper stuff.


Then you weren't making a point. Pretty sure I said post the feats that *imply* Zoro is more durable then the people that outlasted G4. 


ClannadFan said:


> If you guys truly believe that if Zoro fought Luffy in the story, Oda would just make Luffy dodge EVERY SINGLE HIT then you haven't paid any attention to his intent on writing how strong these characters are.


Luffy has already blocked sword attacks or just straight up endured them from commander+ individuals. He doesn't need to dodge every single one, just the obviously dangerous ones


ClannadFan said:


> There was never a point in the story where Luffy would mid-diff Zoro. And  some of you are claiming that a weaker version of Luffy would mid diff Zoro. I understand that some people wank Zoro, but this is the opposite. The downplay is bad here.


You're in the battledome. Trying to argue with portrayal is a losing battle. The only reason this thread was even made was because of recent feats


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Typhon said:


> Why not quote me? Almost missed this shade
> 
> Then you weren't making a point. Pretty sure I said post the feats that *imply* Zoro is more durable then the people that outlasted G4.
> 
> ...


Funny, because if we're really just going off feats and not portrayal, Zoro has been more impressive than Luffy on the rooftop. But we all know Luffy is actually stronger. Sometimes you've got to actually think when it comes to this stuff, crazy, I know.

Reactions: Like 2


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## maupp (Feb 16, 2021)

By the way does this scenario have Pre Udon Luffy with help for when he'll inevitably run out of G4 to hide him from Zoro like he's done pretty much in all his G4 fights?

It's actually important to point out that G4 Luffy without help loses all his fights he's been in so far. 

Either OP adds help waiting on the side to hide and help him run away from Zoro after his juice runs out or this gets even more embarrassing.

G4 Luffy is yet to prove that he can actually beat a solid fighter without help and interferences.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## OG sama (Feb 16, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Taking the three posts above at face value, current Zoro would win against current Luffy comfortably. I am not inherently against Zoro being stronger than Luffy, but I highly doubt Oda intends for that to be the case.


Damn you take the words out my mouth everytime.

You are a very underrated poster around here, too bad there’s just too many Zoro wankers so I’m the only one giving a like or a winner to your post.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Did I just see someone saying that Zoro did the least damages to Kaido out of all the sn ?

Is this fr ?

The Zoro downplay here...

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Zooted (Feb 16, 2021)

maupp said:


> It's actually important to point out that G4 Luffy without help loses all his fights he's been in so far.


It's also important to point out that Luffy fights the main arc villain who was stronger than that version of him so don't be bias here


maupp said:


> Either OP adds help waiting on the side to hide and help him run away from Zoro after his juice runs out or this gets even more embarrassing.
> 
> G4 Luffy is yet to prove that he can actually beat a solid fighter without help and interferences.



Don't forget to mention Zoro missed a slash and was left wheezing while helplessly falling out of the sky if you're going to mention G4 time limit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Feb 16, 2021)

The fact that Oda has to nerf G4’s time limit even now 3 arcs after its introduction against a Yonko should tell you that none of the SNs are touching its firepower, and that goes for Zoro as well.

If BMs shocked expression and Kids facial expressions and shock and his own comments on the form aren’t enough to prove this I don’t know what to tell y’all haters.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

If Luffy is as fast as yall say he is, why isn't he just speed blitzing and zipping around everywhere? Since apparently hes so fast that Zoro cant even dream of tagging him. You'd think he'd use this godly speed if he had it, instead of making sure hes moving slow enough so that Zoro and the others can keep up, and give the Yonkou chances to hit him.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Typhon (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Funny, because if we're really just going off feats and not portrayal, Zoro has been more impressive than Luffy on the rooftop. But we all know Luffy is actually stronger. Sometimes you've got to actually think when it comes to this stuff, crazy, I know.


You're really bad at this... like really bad.  Zoro hasn't been more impressive then Luffy either. That's just hilarious

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 16, 2021)

OG sama said:


> The fact that Oda has to nerf G4’s time limit even now 3 arcs after its introduction against a Yonko should tell you that none of the SNs are touching its firepower, and that goes for Zoro as well.
> 
> If BMs shocked expression and Kids facial expressions and shock and his own comments on the form aren’t enough to prove this I don’t know what to tell y’all haters.


Cap, Swords are more lethal then Luffy attacks. Its just a fact. BM had fear and shock when  Zoro was going to attack Kaido

Reactions: Like 3


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Typhon said:


> You're really bad at this... like really bad.  Zoro hasn't been more impressive then Luffy either. That's just hilarious


You're bad, really bad at this.

"I CaLcLatEd eVreY PIxeL, LUfFy iS 15.8927x FAsteR thAN ZoRO"

Some of yall really take your interpretations of these "calcs" and feats as law. Instead of actually paying attention to whats happening on screen.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Maruo (Feb 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> If Luffy is as fast as yall say he is, why isn't he just speed blitzing and zipping around everywhere? Since apparently hes so fast that Zoro cant even dream of tagging him. You'd think he'd use this godly speed if he had it, instead of making sure hes moving slow enough so that Zoro and the others can keep up, and give the Yonkou chances to hit him.



Why isn't Kaido TB'ing everyone? They would all be knocked out (except Luffy). The answer is Oda chose not to write the fight that way.

Luffy hasn't been shown to be definitively slower than anything other than possibly Shiva's Wrath so far. It seems as if Luffy tanked Boro Breath instead of dodging in order to get closer to Kaido to use Kong Gatling.


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## OG sama (Feb 16, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Cap, Swords are more lethal then Luffy attacks. Its just a fact. BM had fear and shock when  Zoro was going to attack Kaido


Stop it, if you think Zoro is going to be stronger than his own Captain than you are meatriding.

Disliking my comment on the matter isn’t going to change reality lol.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 16, 2021)

Maruo said:


> Why isn't Kaido TB'ing everyone? They would all be knocked out (except Luffy). The answer is Oda chose not to write the fight that way.
> 
> Luffy hasn't been shown to be definitively slower than anything other than possibly Shiva's Wrath so far. It seems as if Luffy tanked Boro Breath instead of dodging in order to get closer to Kaido to use Kong Gatling.


The answer for Kaido is easy. He's clearly just testinf the waters and having fun so far. Can't really debate that, as its clear as day.

Luffy has no excuse, given that he's actually trying to win, like he literally just used up all his haki.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Jo Ndule (Feb 16, 2021)

Zoro didn't overpower Kaido's attack

Using kinnemon skills to gut fire isnt impressive

He has tanked one attack while luffy has tanked 4

Oh wait, Zoro isn't equal to fs luffy even.

Stop daydreaming.  

Fightijg kaido doesn't mean he's equal or near Luffy 
Hurting kaido too doesn't prove that.
 He didnt scare Kaido or BM! They worried about Enma.

Kaido never dodged either.

Stop writing 2 pieces

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Cap, Swords are more lethal then Luffy attacks. Its just a fact.


No.

We have implosion haki for that.

Internal damage >> External Damage.

Zoro's other 2 swords did shit against Kaido,  while all of Luffy's punches, all landed all did internal damage.

Zoro's sword will be more lethal when his Haki level will be the same as Luffy's.



Nova said:


> It's also important to point out that Luffy fights the main arc villain who was stronger than that version of him so don't be bias here
> 
> 
> Don't forget to mention Zoro missed a slash and was left wheezing while helplessly falling out of the sky if you're going to mention G4 time limit.


And Law teleported him in that position for Zoro to even try to land.

Zoro's mobility is shit but he can compete with G4 in mobility ... let alone that G4 will use FS to predict Zoro's big moves.

And that is consistent since Pica.


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

*it seems Oda nerfed Zoro with enma and Luffy as an hindrance to not make him goes all out that speaks for his Full Strength something Luffy wouldn't dream off *

Reactions: Winner 2 | Dislike 1


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## maupp (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> It's also important to point out that Luffy fights the main arc villain who was stronger than that version of him so don't be bias here
> 
> 
> Don't forget to mention Zoro missed a slash and was left wheezing while helplessly falling out of the sky if you're going to mention G4 time limit.


There is nothing bias about mentioning that Luffy had help winning his G4 fights. The reason it's important to bring that up is that most people are under the impression that Luffy G4 was to overwhelming for his opponents at the time when in truth it wasn't enough to secure him wins without massive interferences and outside helps.

People are gauging G4 with this inaccurate perception that it's such an overpowered form that it lay waste upon everyone it came across when the truth is that it actually failed to deliver and needed help. With that in mind people would have a far more fair reflection of G4 rather than this inflated idea of G4 being too much for anyone when it hasn't even proven enough for anyone so far.

As to your Zoro point, I honestly don't get what you're trying to get at. He missed, was hung mid air and payed for that by being struck with BM hindra attack. What's the relevance of that anyways?


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Jo Ndule said:


> Zoro didn't overpower Kaido's attack
> 
> Using kinnemon skills to gut fire isnt impressive
> 
> ...


He literally overpowered Kaido's Tatsumaki..that's why Kaido said that "Zoro dare to challenge him in a twister contest or whatever he said"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Stop it, if you think Zoro is going to be stronger than his own Captain than you are meatriding.
> 
> Disliking my comment on the matter isn’t going to change reality lol.


I never said anything about stronger. Zoro more lethal


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Stop it, if you think Zoro is going to be stronger than his own Captain than you are meatriding.
> 
> Disliking my comment on the matter isn’t going to change reality lol.


I never said anything about str


Ren. said:


> No.
> 
> We have implosion haki for that.
> 
> ...


1. BS Zoro other 2 swords did cut Kaido. Nowhere did anyone say one sword cut him. He did 3 sword style.
2. BS i didn't see Laws gamme knife affect Kaido has much has Zoro attack. Oda shows  how affectivr it is by making people spit blood. Zoro attack dud more. All thise pics you posted earlier showed is you bodying yourself.
3. Once again talking out your ass, Law teleported Zoro to help Luffy.
4. Lmao Luffy is not doing more damage so idk what Haki level shit your talking about.
5. Luffy FS hasn't done shit to competent fighters. Apoo wrecked him(carried by Zoro and wasting Zoro energy), Ulti punned him, Yamato blocked/ all his moves,Queen grabbed him, Kaido slapped him, BM was going to hit him and Zoro helled him twice. FS ain't shit like your making it out to be.
6. Why is Luffy being a complete liability wasting Zoro energy for 10 minutes

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> 1. BS Zoro other 2 swords did cut Kaido.


Look at the panel before the cut, and you have one cut.



Jujubatman12 said:


> see Laws gamme knife affect Kaido has much


GN is radiation and hax, it does need blood to be drawn.



Jujubatman12 said:


> Law teleported Zoro to help Luffy.


Law teleported Zoro to try to cut kaido ...



Jujubatman12 said:


> Lmao Luffy is not doing more damage


You know that from ... not the manga, Luffy did a lot of damage with G3 alone that made Kaido put him next to Ode to Roger range. From where you get that Zoro did more damage is beyond normal readers.



Jujubatman12 said:


> . Luffy FS hasn't done shit to competent fighters.


FS made his base doged TB, the only top tier speed attack from Kaido.



Jujubatman12 said:


> Why is Luffy being a complete liability wasting Zoro energy for 10 minutes


Because he did 20X the damage Zoro did and forced Kaido to hybrid.

I even put out 20 panels ... you guys just don't want to read or see.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

*- wait they are still using only enma cut kaido headcanon let's see ur bs : 

Red Databook statement : 

 Style sword : Santoryu technique*
* Tatsumaki :*​* Because of the shock, the person who got cut spins in the sky. It's a great skill with one hit move. It's a powerful technique that blows the opponent who has been cut off, as if a dragon is rising in the sky. 
The powerful pressure of the swords creates a tornado shaped airflow, giving to the opponent two damages : the cut and the blast. the power was enough to defeat a fishman in one attack! memo : Since this is a technique that can potentially be used even from the top of the opponent's attack, it's powerful technique which can be used at the same time as the opponent's technique. 

(on the left of zoro vs hachi picture) Like a tempest of swords attacks!*

did you read my geniuses  no three slashes headcanon luffy stans spamming around it's a cut from combined power of the three swords that gave a tornado from their powerful pressure try hard next time  
*<< powerful pressure of the swords creates a tornado shaped airflow, giving to the opponent two damages : the cut and the blast. the power was enough to defeat a fishman in one attack >>*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Look at the panel before the cut, and you have one cut.
> 
> 
> GN is radiation and hax, it does need blood to be drawn.
> ...


1. 1 cut doesn't mean it wasn't a 3 sword style. Stop talking out your ass.

2. We seen affects of GN.

Lmao at it did that much to Kaido has Zoro attack that cut him and made him spit so much blood oyt that Luffy came out. Once again stop talking put your ass cause Mr. Liability is not looking like he can low diff

3.Zoro. Extreme diff at the minimum and Luffy probably wins.
4. Law teleported to save mr. Liability
5. Go reread   Kaido was suprised Luffy went from straight scrub to someone that can do decent damage to him in 2 weeks then stated how high is potential can go up, not that he next to those people lmao
6. He literally got hit by Thunder Bagua.   then was stunned which led to BM opening and Zoro saving him.

7. So your excuse is Luffy still hasn't made a form to better utilize his G4 and just goes all out from start of fight and couldn't finish shit. While Zoro is fighting like the more competent fighter.

Reactions: Like 2


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> 1. 1 cut doesn't mean it wasn't a 3 sword style. Stop talking out your ass.
> 
> 2. We seen affects of GN.
> 
> ...





fenaker said:


> *- wait they are still using only enma cut kaido headcanon let's see ur bs :
> 
> Red Databook statement :
> 
> ...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Look at the panel before the cut, and you have one cut.
> 
> 
> GN is radiation and hax, it does need blood to be drawn.
> ...


forced kaido to hybrid !!! are u reading three pieces

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mercurial (Feb 17, 2021)

The clear thing is that both Rufy and Zoro are portrayed on a similar level, on a further level than Law, Kidd and Killer.

Their attacks are the only ones who really created serious reactions of trouble/fear/praise from the Yonkos.
Their attacks are the only ones who did concrete damage to the Yonkos.
Their attacks are the only ones who straight up overpowered attacks from the Yonkos.
Their attacks are the ones who triggered Kaido going Hybrid Form for the first time.

Everyone in the Top 5 WG Supernova is a monster in his own right. But Rufy and Zoro are even more beastly among those monsters. That's what their feats and portrayal show.

Underestimate Zoro is a crime. The guy is being acknowledged by Yonko as a threat and has not even used his upper end moves. It's clear that he is above Pre Udon Rufy. He has to otherwise nothing makes sense.

Current Rufy Low Top Tier (Fujitora level)
Current Zoro Lowest Top Tier (Old Rayleigh level)
Current Kidd YC1+ (stronger than Katakuri)
Current Law YC1+ (stronger than Katakuri)
Previous Rufy YC1 (on par with Katakuri)
Current Killer YC2+ (stronger than Queen)
Previous Zoro YC3+ (stronger than Jack/Cracker)
Previous Kidd YC3 (on par with Jack/Cracker)
Previous Law YC3- (a bit weaker than Jack/Cracker)
Previous Killer YC3,5 (weaker than YC3 but massively stronger than Snack who is YC4)


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## maupp (Feb 17, 2021)

The only thing Luffy forced Kaido to do was gobble him in his mouth.  

After Luffy exhausted his G4 mode Kaido proceeded to throw in tornados in dragon form and attempted to swallow him. Then Zoro fecking tastumaki'd his ass, cut him, Kaido coughed up plenty of blood as well as Luffy.

Then after that Kaido decided to go hybrid, not before. Zoro had to lay down the pain on Kaido, cut his scales for him to nope out of his dragon form and go hybrid mode.

If we're going to give a single individual most of the creds that forced Kaido to go hybrid it's Zoro and he didn't need to blow his entire load to accomplish that.  But in truth it's the accumulation of Luffy's attacks and Zoro being lethal to Kaido that forced him, not Luffy alone because out of everyone on that roof, only Zoro had Kaido shook.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> 1. 1 cut doesn't mean it wasn't a 3 sword style. Stop talking out your ass.


I am reading the manga unlike ...

*Spoiler*: __ 








I know most of you guys are a lost cause but some of us read the manga.

@Shihio  this is not WG.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 3


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

bumping the thread a little:

@Beast @Nova


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I am reading the manga unlike ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol You posted that like that proved your point. Yea you would probably get manhandled on worse Gen. Anyways Show me where its stated he cut him with one sword. You must of not read when i showed you Zoro leaving 1 slash with 3 sword style attack. Your getting bodied  . What you posted literally disproves noting.


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I am reading the manga unlike ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


u are using ur headcanons to say he used hybrid nice try luffy stan


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Sure, just ask the owner of the site about that.


Yea i am not going to ask anybody, but from what i see here, your would get bodied. Lol

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

@Kinjin this time I put the tags. Sorry, the other two posts.


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## Kroczilla (Feb 17, 2021)

Wait, are people legit arguing that zoro's other blades cut Kaido?

Like, didn't we literally have emphasis being placed exclusively on Enma?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Yea i am not going to ask anybody, but from what i see here, your would get bodied. Lol


better not to go there , because there is nik senpai and shishio and other fellas who will low diff him

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

fenaker said:


> nik senpai


Oh yeah, mister frequency and mister Pica is YC2.



I would rather watch paint dry.


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Wait, are people legit arguing that zoro's other blades cut Kaido?
> 
> Like, didn't we literally have emphasis being placed exclusively on Enma?


this is just a story for children and it is easy to understand 


fenaker said:


> *- wait they are still using only enma cut kaido headcanon let's see ur bs :
> 
> Red Databook statement :
> 
> ...


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Wait, are people legit arguing that zoro's other blades cut Kaido?
> 
> Like, didn't we literally have emphasis being placed exclusively on Enma?


My advice is to ignore them.

All the people that have posted in the last 6 pages are the usual suspects and the discussion is pointless.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kroczilla (Feb 17, 2021)

fenaker said:


> this is just a story for children and *it is easy to understand*




Yeah, you are sort of proving that this isn't quite the case

Reactions: Agree 4


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Oh yeah, mister frequency and mister Pica is YC2.
> 
> 
> 
> I would rather watch paint drie.


u aren't ready for pica hype genius


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Yeah, you are sort of proving that this isn't quite the case


Yeah genius databook debunked ur headcanon and him using three swords instead of one , Sanji stans play smart but they get Ls in the end like their favorite


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Databooks again over manga panels. 

Yep, that is Shishio or WG-like posts.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Databooks again over manga panels.
> 
> Yep, that is Shishio or WG-like posts.


panel it says he only cut with enma genius


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Wait, are people legit arguing that zoro's other blades cut Kaido?
> 
> Like, didn't we literally have emphasis being placed exclusively on Enma?


Yea Kaido was talking about Oden Will/Haki in the Sword. He didn't say only one sword cut him. Zoro 3 sword style can leave one appearant cut. Its done many times

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I am reading the manga unlike ...
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


The  singular cut was not the point :


*Spoiler*: __ 











The haki cut that only Enma can release is.


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> My advice is to ignore them.
> 
> All the people that have posted in the last 6 pages are the usual suspects and the discussion is pointless.


Funny how you still didn't address 3 sword style making one cut. Yea tell him to ignore the argument your getting bodied in

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> The  singular cut was not the point :


so nothing about only enma cut in those panels , i thought you have something

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> The  singular cut was not the point :
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





Jujubatman12 said:


> Funny how you still didn't address 3 sword style making one cut. Yea tell him to ignore the argument your getting bodied in


Addressing what Oda has shown on panels and even put Zoro to say before, is not my job.

Zoro tries to cut Kaido, can not, says he needs more power from Enma.

Oda draws a panel with an aura on Enma and another one with a Dragon Aura on Enma, Kaido says the sword is the source of that stage haki.

Oda did enough.


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## Kinjin (Feb 17, 2021)



Reactions: Funny 5


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Databooks again over manga panels.
> 
> Yep, that is Shishio or WG-like posts.


I posted manga panels and so did he

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Databooks again over manga panels.
> 
> Yep, that is Shishio or WG-like posts.


I reported him to kin lets check. I am not sure  shishio has main here .

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Kinjin said:


>


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> The  singular cut was not the point :
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


What that got to do with disproving he cut him with 3 swords. Noting you circled has anything to disprove what i said. I am still waiting

Reactions: Like 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Zoro uses a 3 swords technique 

You guys : no he only cut him with Enma...

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> What that got to do with disproving he cut him with 3 swords. Noting you circled has anything to disprove what i said. I am still waiting


I don't disprove something I don't need to.

Shisui ate the 2 other cuts into one in TB. That was not even the point.

The point was the 3 panels where Enma was highlighted as the source of the haki, the haki that was the reason why Kaido was cut in Wano by Scabbards, Zoro, and damaged by Luffy.

If you still don't get it, that is all.


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I don't disprove something I don't need to.
> 
> Shisui ate the 2 other cuts into one in TB. That was not even the point.
> 
> ...


What does Shisui eating the other cuts gotta do with anything. Bro stop saying irrelevant shit cause you don't have an argument

Zoro has Haki which is why all 3 swords are hardened up

Yea i Don't go by your nonesense headcanon.   So this is the glorious debate skills of somebody who thinks he too good for WG.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> So this is the glorious debate skills of somebody who thinks he too good for WG.


No one says you need to read my posts. You can do what you did with Oda's text and pictures, ignore them.

If 3 consecutive panels of Oda showing you Enma and Kaido mentioning that sword can not convince you, I sure can't.


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> No one says you need to read my posts. You can do what you did with Oda's text and pictures, ignore them.
> 
> If 3 consecutive panels of Oda showing you Enma and Kaido mentioning that sword can not convince you, I sure can't.


I didn't ignore anything. You ignoring Zoro using 3 sword style technique to cut him and i never said Enma panels didn't exist. Scroll up and you will see that i addressed it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> I didn't ignore anything. You ignoring Zoro using 3 sword style technique to cut him and i never said Enma panels didn't exist. Scroll up and you will see that i addressed it.


Again please read the manga.



You are free to believe what you want.

Zoro, Scabbards, and Luffy can do damage because of a special level of haki, that was the point of Udon and Enma.

That special level of haki can be used by Zoro only with Enma as of chapter 1004.

Your databooks, past references mean nothing vs manga panels as in databooks Oda does not include anything that contradicts manga panels, in fact, Manga panels contradict past databooks like Sabo being dead.

You are in fact free to debate that with Shishio and Nik22 on WG next to Pica YC2 and whatever you want.

A 3 sword style technic does not mean that all 3 swords can cut Kaido as again Enma was highlighted all the rooftop battle and  Zoro's most impressive move was with Enma ...

Stop requoting me if that is what you want to reiterate each time, I see it as spamming.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Again please read the manga.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Enma was being fed has much haki then. You claim to read the manga, but you clearly don't. The panel you posted is before Zoro started putting hardening on his Swords. Right after that he Hardened Enma. It seems your clueless has ever

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Again please stop quoting me.

Hardening is not what cuts Kaido. Hardening is basic COA and Scabbards didn't use that to cut Kaido.



Luffy in G4 is clad in Hardening, an even higher level as that has the flower pattern.
And that did nothing.

Now G3 + Advance COA does a tone of dame to Kaido


This is not hardening and this is only on Enma for a reason.


You are free to debate your theories with someone else.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Again please stop quoting me.
> 
> Hardening is not what cuts Kaido. Hardening is basic COA and Scabbards didn't use that to cut Kaido.
> 
> ...


I don't care what Sccabards used and the pic you posted their Sword was Hardened. Lmfao are you slow or something.  I SAID zoro started feeding his Sword more haki. Ryou is Haki too. Harden and Ryou is the best way. Which is why Sccabards ultimate attack they used both.

I don't know what your talking about, Luffy been using Advance hardening the whole time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

I show him Scabbards and Luffy using an aura and no hardening but hardening is advanced COA.







Jujubatman12 said:


> used and the pic you posted their Sword was Hardened.





LOL.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Luffy been using Advance hardening


Ok, now we have a new haki advanced hardening.

Is this what is trendy on WG?

I am out.

And no you don't need hardening and advance COA, Luffy has used that without hardening so did the Scabbards.

I am wasting time in here.


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Ok, now we have a new haki advanced hardening.
> 
> Is this what is trendy on WG?
> 
> ...


Bro once again show me where i said anything your accusing me of? When did i say you need hardening to do Advanced CoA?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Yesterday Wiggin was convincing us that Zoro's durability comes from when he blocks with his swords clouded in haki.

Now a WG member is convincing us that Zoro can cut Kaido with any sword, making half of his Wano plot irrelevant.

I should just enjoy the flow of trolling, Kinjin next time you read the posts and accuse others of trolling take notes from these 2 threads.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Yesterday Wiggin was convincing us that Zoro's durability comes from when he blocks with his swords clouded in haki.
> 
> Now a WG member is convincing us that Zoro can cut Kaido with any sword, making half of his Wano plot irrelevant.
> 
> I should just enjoy the flow of trolling, Kinjin next time you read the posts and accuse others of trolling take notes from these 2 threads.


What does at Wiggins got to do with me.

Zoro literally used 3 sword style and Sccabards cut Kaido too. Lol you thinking Sccabards have better Ryou CoA than Zoro

You enjoy getting bodied it seems

@TheWiggian

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

I think any unbaised person could tell that Zoro cut Kaido with all 3 of his swords. I mean he was using 3 sword style. I really doubt that was Oda's intent, if he was trying to imply that he would of made him use 1 sword style, you know, like he did earlier when he was only using Enma, because 1 sword style means he's using 1 sword. I didn't think I had to spell that out.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

... Oh brother ...    @Beast can you do another thread with a pool.

Did Zoro cut Kaido with all 3 swords!

The same as  Yoru vs Club.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> @TheWiggian

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## Beast (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> ... Oh brother ...    @Beast can you do another thread with a pool.
> 
> Did Zoro cut Kaido with all 3 swords!
> 
> The same as  Yoru vs Club.




I know they have troubles understanding on panel feats but yeah.... only one cut on the dragon which is coming from Enma the same sword with the most aura as he builds up attack.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Beast said:


> I know they have troubles understanding on panel feats but yeah.... only one cut on the dragon which is coming from Enma the same sword with the most aura as he builds up attack.


I explained that Enma is dominating the other 2 as Shisui did in TB creating one cut.

Oda made sure to constantly show the different Aura on Enma, Kaido said so the source of that strange Haki is from that sword.


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## Beast (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I explained that Enma is dominating the other 2 as Shisui did in TB creating one cut.
> 
> Oda made sure to constantly show the different Aura on Enma, Kaido said so the source of that strange Haki is from that sword.


The attack is a tornado... you can’t make a concentrated attack and there would have been several cuts on Kaidou instead of just one but again... like the 1000th time, it’s Enma that is special not the other swords.

Enma has stronger haki then Zoro himself.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Beast said:


> The attack is a tornado... you can’t make a concentrated attack and there would have been several cuts on Kaidou instead of just one but again... like the 1000th time, it’s Enma that is special not the other swords.


I am using their logic.

If they read FI, that attack was producing constant cuts.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

Beast said:


> The attack is a tornado... you can’t make a concentrated attack and there would have been several cuts on Kaidou instead of just one but again... like the 1000th time, it’s Enma that is special not the other swords.
> 
> *Enma has stronger haki then Zoro himself.*



Considering it uses his haki thats literally impossible lol unless you mean it bundles more of it in one place

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Considering it uses his haki thats literally impossible lol unless you mean it bundles more of it in one place


Face It Enma > Zoro

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Feb 17, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Considering it uses his haki thats literally impossible lol unless you mean it bundles more of it in one place


Enma can use haki that Zoro can’t By himself... so...

Reactions: Funny 2


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

I see that's just a weak trolling attempt lol


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## Beast (Feb 17, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> I see that's just a weak trolling attempt lol


Call it weak or strong... it’s the truth.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

Beast said:


> Call it weak or strong... it’s the truth.



Yea Enma is an entity i understand that, i love reading this version too

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Beast said:


> I know they have troubles understanding on panel feats but yeah.... only one cut on the dragon which is coming from Enma the same sword with the most aura as he builds up attack.


Nice headcanon

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Nice headcanon


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Beast said:


> Call it weak or strong... it’s the truth.





Ren. said:


>


Those are multiple people. You literally see the shield get cut in half not into 10 pieces.  
Look at Zoro doing 1 sword style according to dummies like you

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Those are multiple people. You literally see the shield get cut in half not into 10 pieces.
> Look at Zoro doing 1 sword style according to dummies like you


There are more than 3 cuts in that panel. The shield got cut in 2, but there are more than one shield and swords and people, all got cut by one move.


I showed you the same move not what you are showing me.

As Beast said how is a tornado a concentrated attack?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Beast (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> There are more than 3 cuts in that panel.
> I showed you the same move not what you are showing me.
> 
> As Beast said how is a tornado a concentrated attack?


Same way they know Swords and armour are the same or how Enma isn’t a powered, anything in between that works.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Beast said:


> Same way they know Swords and armour are the same or how Enma isn’t a powered, anything in between that works.


It is funny in a way.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

People still salty that swords can be used to block attacks similiar to an armor?

Not in a group, not in combination with google capable of disproving that a sword can be used to block damage

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

So we are still on the page that Zoro's durability is the durability of his swords? 

Too bad COA 3.0 Haki was shown. The Swords durability is irrelevant, either you have the same level of COA or Luffy will bypass the sword and you get full damage.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

Still in denial swords are the extension of a swordsmans limbs?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Its one cut


Damn Zoro can cut multiple persons that are in a circle with one cut    in multiple places, on the body, shield, and sword.


I am getting nik22 vibes from you.

I am out.

Also @Kinjin  I think name-calling for the last 20 posts is not permitted on NF!
I can report him if that is what is needed but I know I was banned from less than this.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Damn Zoro can cut multiple persons that are in a circle with one cut    in multiple places, on the body, shield, and sword.
> 
> 
> I am getting nik22 vibes from you.
> ...


Yea take your L and keep it moving.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## fenaker (Feb 17, 2021)

*- Dude is creditless , it's like when Zoro talked about shusui and highlighted it in 108 pound canon it seems only shusui could damage oars if it landed because only shusui attacked him   *

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

maupp said:


> There is nothing bias about mentioning that Luffy had help winning his G4 fights. The reason it's important to bring that up is that most people are under the impression that Luffy G4 was to overwhelming for his opponents at the time when in truth it wasn't enough to secure him wins without massive interferences and outside helps.
> 
> People are gauging G4 with this inaccurate perception that it's such an overpowered form that it lay waste upon everyone it came across when the truth is that it actually failed to deliver and needed help. With that in mind people would have a far more fair reflection of G4 rather than this inflated idea of G4 being too much for anyone when it hasn't even proven enough for anyone so far.


That was not your intention at all. Reread the post I quoted. 


maupp said:


> As to your Zoro point, I honestly don't get what you're trying to get at. He missed, was hung mid air and payed for that by being struck with BM hindra attack. What's the relevance of that anyways?


The fact that he used ONE slash and left drained should tell you that he also has a limit to using Enma instead of what people are claiming in this thread.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Jo Ndule (Feb 17, 2021)

Without unleashing enma, zoro can't hurt kaido really 

No emma : Zoro is useless 
Low/mid high tier at best

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

The fact is Enma is literally carrying Zoro's AP right now. Just like how the author mentions it over and over ever since Zoro started using it on the roof. Not our fault that the author loves Enma more than Zoro right now.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Mastered Enma Zoro>g4 post udon Luffy


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## maupp (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> That was not your intention at all. Reread the post I quoted.
> 
> *The fact that he used ONE slash and left drained should tell you that he also has a limit to using Enma instead of what people are claiming in this thread.*


Yeah an attack that had Kaido noping out of it and Big Mom shook. Of course it took quite some juice out of him. What did Luffy all out attacks accomplish against Kaido? Hardly anything.  

Meanwhile Zoro missed attack has hype to seriously hurt Kaido and it's only made him whize out while Luffy is currently a sitting duck despite his entire load hardly doing anything to Kaido.

Reactions: Like 3


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## maupp (Feb 17, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Mastered Enma Zoro>g4 post udon Luffy


Luffy will only be stronger than current Zoro when Oda hands him his incoming power up. This version ain't doing it. 

Zoro has performed similarly to him with attacking power more hyped than anything G4 Luffy has shown so far and Zoro is the one currently still standing and protecting his ass while he's passed out from exhaustion. 

A Luffy that hasn't out performed Zoro is out on the deck while Zoro hasn't gone all out yet. Clearly only a stronger version than the current one Luffy has shown so far(aka his powered up version from this fight) can be stronger than current Zoro.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

maupp said:


> Yeah an attack that had Kaido noping out of it and Big Mom shook. Of course it took quite some juice out of him. What did Luffy all out attacks accomplish against Kaido? Hardly anything.


More than Zoro did this whole fight. Zoro can't even hit his shots against a slow and big dragon while Luffy making dragon kaido cough more blood than any of the SNs but hey don't dodge my statement about time limits. coughing blood is "hardly anything" while you guys wank the shit out of Boro breath's damage on Luffy.



BM looks shook to me


maupp said:


> Meanwhile Zoro missed attack has hype to seriously hurt Kaido and it's only made him whize out while Luffy is currently a sitting duck despite his entire load hardly doing anything to Kaido.


"only wheeze out" while falling helplessly out of the sky. Yeah cause Luffy took the heat off of him. Both BM and Kaido's attention was on Luffy while he gattling the shit out of Kaido making BM shooked after Zoro went MIA until we see him again next chapter.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## maupp (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> More than Zoro did this whole fight. Zoro can't even hit his shots against a slow and big dragon while *Luffy making dragon kaido cough more blood than any of the SNs* but hey don't dodge my statement about time limits. coughing blood is "hardly anything" while you guys wank the shit out of Boro breath's damage on Luffy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All I see is Luffy throwing a bunch of punches while Kaido is just eating them. Meanwhile one Zoro's attack proved more deadly than all that spamming. It's not about quantity, it's about quality.

Also did you just say Luffy made Kaido cough up more blood than any SNs(including Zoro)? 

Zoro's fodders cleaning move not only overpowered Kaido's own tornados but it cut him and made him cough the most blood we've seen from him in this fight. He coughed so much blood that he ended up puking Luffy. Go back and re watch the tastumaki panel. Where has Luffy managed to make Kaido puke that much blood?

You keep mentioning Zoro wheezing out and being helpless (dude was mid air) yet he took a Indra attack from Big Mom and the next time we saw him he was looking clean and fresh, then went on to lay pain on Kaido after.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

maupp said:


> All I see is Luffy throwing a bunch of punches while Kaido is just eating them. Meanwhile one Zoro attacks proves more deadly than all that spamming. It's not about quantity, it's about quality.


AP is useless if he cant hit his shots..Especially against a slow and big dragon... Did no damage whatsoever and will not do any against faster opponents.


maupp said:


> Also did you just say Luffy made Kaido cought up more blood than any SNs(including Zoro)?
> 
> Zoro's fodders cleaning move not only overpowered Kaido's own tornados but it cut him and made him cough the most blood we've seen from him in this fight. He coughed so much blood that he ended up puking Luffy. Go back and re watch the tastumaki panel. Where has Luffy managed to make Kaido puke that much blood?


I'm not posting all those panels again if @Ren. already did. Luffy hit him with G2 red rock, G3, gattling, G4 attacks while Zoro only did damage similar to Luffy with dragon twister



"He coughed so much blood" while the panel disagrees with you. 


maupp said:


> You keep mentioning Zoro wheezing out and being helpless (dude was mid air) yet he took a Indra attack from Big Mom and the next time we saw him he was looking clean and fresh, then went on to lay pain on Kaido after.


Yes he was wheezing AFTER ONE SLASH while Luffy had to take the heat off of him while he recovers being MIA. My post is about his limit with Enma while you continuously talk about G4 time limit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Lot of headcanons being posted its universal fact Luffy >> Zoro.

Zoro with enma with his current situation would go high diff fight  match and eventually  lose to pre Udon  luffy btw.


Zoro fans will keep underrating base luffy's strength i mean its ironic at this point you guys are downplaying MC .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## maupp (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> *AP is useless if he cant hit his shots*..Especially against a slow and big dragon... Did no damage whatsoever and will not do any against faster opponents.
> 
> I'm not posting all those panels again if @Ren. already did. Luffy hit him with G2 red rock, G3, gattling, G4 attacks while Zoro only did damage similar to Luffy with dragon twister
> 
> ...


You seem to be under the impression that Zoro can't hit Kaido when he literally did so(and you've even posted a page of him doing so). 

Notice how Zoro did damage Kaido with a fodder cleaning move of his while Luffy blew his entire load to do damage. Meanwhile Oda doesn't want Zoro to connect his higher end moves for now. What does that tell you? 

Despite Luffy having loads of panel time, Zoro still managed to put on serious work with pure lethality and not needing to pass out. 

Of course Zoro has limits too. And that move that had him wheezing out is one hyped to seriously fecked over Kaido. Luffy's all out assault hardly did anything to Kaido. Zoro's move that makes him wheeze out and clearly takes quite a bit out of him but still not him going all out has hype to seriously wreck Kaido over that he'd choose to nope out of the way. 

Now given those scenarios above, who is the one coming off better?   

Zoro's move that strained him a bit is hyped to be above Luffy's all out assault which has him passed out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

To everyone talking about how tired Zoro was after using Enma, how many chapters was he out of the fight for? Must of been a while, atleast 10 mins with how bad you guys are making it seem. I couldn't imagine how useless an attack would be, if it made him useless for 10 mins because he used all his haki.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## maupp (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> To everyone talking about how tired Zoro was after using Enma, how many chapters was he out of the fight for? Must of been a while, atleast 10 mins with how bad you guys are making it seem. I couldn't imagine how useless an attack would be, if it made him useless for 10 mins because he used all his haki.


That's how it is with Zoro, some people want to hold onto anything to convince themselves Zoro isn't as powerful as Oda is portraying him. 

God forbids Zoro whizzes out a bit after releasing an attack that had 2 Yonkous shook and Kaido for the first time on panel noped out of the way of an attack instead of his usual tank job. Suicidal Kaido choose to live again after he saw what was coming for him, of course that attack was no joke. 

Luffy blowing his entire load hasn't managed to seriously damage Kaido yet a single Zoro's move is hyped to fecked him over. Talk about hype from Oda.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Lot of headcanons being posted its universal fact Luffy >> Zoro.
> 
> Zoro with enma with his current situation would go high diff fight  match and eventually  lose to pre Udon  luffy btw.
> 
> ...


We aren't downplaying him

Zoro is just as impressive as Luffy atm so idk where this Luffy>>Zoro comes from

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> To everyone talking about how tired Zoro was after using Enma, how many chapters was he out of the fight for? Must of been a while, atleast 10 mins with how bad you guys are making it seem. I couldn't imagine how useless an attack would be, if it made him useless for 10 mins because he used all his haki.



There is timeout to Luffy's G4, his stamina still  outweighs far more than zoro.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 5 | Dislike 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 17, 2021)

A lot of embarrassing posts here, I thought the OL was better

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> We aren't downplaying him
> 
> Zoro is just as impressive as Luffy atm so idk where this Luffy>>Zoro comes from


Not impressive as luffy tanking boro breath lets see Z fans can scale up to that level. 

Yes Luffy >>Zoro is fact if it hurts you so much you guys can continue wank ride . Luffy still has lot to show in this fight yet and we are barely into the conclusion.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

maupp said:


> Luffy will only be stronger than current Zoro when Oda hands him his incoming power up. This version ain't doing it.
> 
> Zoro has performed similarly to him with attacking power more hyped than anything G4 Luffy has shown so far and Zoro is the one currently still standing and protecting his ass while he's passed out from exhaustion.
> 
> A Luffy that hasn't out performed Zoro is out on the deck while Zoro hasn't gone all out yet. Clearly only a stronger version than the current one Luffy has shown so far(aka his powered up version from this fight) can be stronger than current Zoro.


I agree with you completely

It's hilarious seeing an all out Luffy not even outperforming Zoro who hasn't gone all out..and has yet to master Enma at 100%

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> I agree with you completely
> 
> It's hilarious seeing an all out Luffy not even outperforming Zoro who hasn't gone all out..and has yet to master Enma at 100%


You guys live in Alternative  reality i swear where Zoro is main MC . 

This is not WG forum (Zoro fan site) so people here will not support your headcanon arguments.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> There is timeout to Luffy's G4, his stamina still  outweighs far more than zoro.


You didn't asnwer my question. How many chapters was Zoro out of the fight for after he used Enma?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Not impressive as luffy tanking boro breath lets see Z fans can scale up to that level.
> 
> Yes Luffy >>Zoro is fact if it hurts you so much you guys can continue wank ride . Luffy still has lot to show in this fight yet and we are barely into the conclusion.


Zoro tanked a full powered indra too
While failing on the ground from high heights unscatched

Lol Zoro hasn't gone anywhere near all out and hasn't mastered Enma too

But but but Luffy hasn't shown everything

He's using fodder attacks and damaging Kaido as much as Luffy  while Luffy needs his strongest attacks to do that

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> You didn't asnwer my question. How many chapters was Zoro out of the fight for after he used Enma?


What do you mean out of fight. It s in mid way.
We just finished 4 chapters into SN vs Yonko do you really expect conclusion already ? 

 Honestly i am not seeing your intention be specific .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> You guys live in Alternative  reality i swear where Zoro is main MC .
> 
> This is not WG forum (Zoro fan site) so people here will not support your headcanon arguments.


It's funny cause i bodied you

You have no arguments except saying Luffy is the mc or Luffy>>Zoro

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> You guys live in Alternative  reality i swear where Zoro is main MC .
> 
> This is not WG forum (Zoro fan site) so people here will not support your headcanon arguments.



Zoro is not a main character? Alright we clearly read something different.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Zoro tanked a full powered indra too
> While failing on the ground from high heights unscatched
> 
> Lol Zoro hasn't gone anywhere near all out and hasn't mastered Enma too
> ...



Seriously downplaying of MC while wanking your character. He has not show full abilities of G4 , did you skip entire luffy vs katakuri fight  btw ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Seriously downplaying of MC while wanking your character. He has not show full abilities of G4 , did you skip entire luffy vs katakuri fight  btw ?


Has Zoro shown everything ? 

Luffy is already going all out

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Zoro is not a main character? Alright we clearly read something different.


Sure its same as Chopper being MC as well. The point Luffy is the big kid here he will always take spotlight. __

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Has Zoro shown everything ?
> 
> Luffy is already going all out


You havent answered my question . If this how we are doing i will have to ignore to your arguments from now.



ice demon slayer said:


> It's funny cause i bodied you
> 
> You have no arguments except saying Luffy is the mc or Luffy>>Zoro


Dont use your fanatic language like bodied you.

Are you 10 year old seriously ?  I just read manga for fun , you guys keep drawing your headcanon to show Zoro is better than luffy.

Chill its still manga for teenagers you guys cannot accept Luffy is damn better is actually surprising.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> You havent answered my question . If this how we are doing i will have to ignore to your arguments from now.


And you haven't answered mine either

Has Zoro gone all out 
Yes or no ?

Also i did watch the Katakuri vs Luffy fight



Dark Shadow said:


> Dont use your fanatic language like bodied you.
> 
> Are you 10 year old seriously ?  I just read manga for fun , you guys keep drawing your headcanon to show Zoro is better than luffy.
> 
> Chill its still manga for teenagers you guys cannot accept Luffy is damn better is actually surprising.


Alright so you have absolutely no arguments and keep saying the same shit everytime 

Nice to know

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> And you haven't answered mine either
> 
> Has Zoro gone all out
> Yes or no ?
> ...


Have you read my arguments  you guys are concluding thing in mid fight so no one has gone completely  out. 

Yet you have weird theories of Luffy has gone completely  out is weird. 

So you think Luffy will not be fighting Hybrid Kaido now ? If you answer is No then i will ignore any arguments  .



ice demon slayer said:


> Alright so you have absolutely no arguments and keep saying the same shit everytime
> 
> Nice to know


Living in lalaland sounds good seems like i hit you nerds on personal level. If you cannot that reality you will not enjoy this manga in peace.

Oda will keep hyping up luffy more than Zoro is what irks you then you should quit one piece. I have seen this shit in Naruto dont take it to that level .

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

Idk why the fact that Luffy>Zoro is being brought up.

This thread is not about the current Luffy.

Reactions: Like 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Have you read my arguments  you guys are concluding thing in mid fight so no one has gone completely  out.
> 
> Yet you have weird theories of Luffy has gone completely  out is weird.
> 
> So you think Luffy will not be fighting Hybrid Kaido now ? If you answer is No then i will ignore any arguments  .


????
When did i say that Luffy wasn't going to fight Hybrid Kaido ? ?? He obviously will

Im talking about thé fact that Luffy used his strongest attacks against Dragon kaido while Zoro did not

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Seems like i hit Zoro nerds on personal level . I did not even know i was on battledome haha  so i am leaving tc.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

maupp said:


> You seem to be under the impression that Zoro can't hit Kaido when he literally did so(and you've even posted a page of him doing so).


Did I lie though? Did he not miss a giant and slow dragon? Yeah, cause Kaido didn't try to dodge.... It would look even worst if Zoro missed a giant target that didn't try to dodge with his "fodder cleaner".


maupp said:


> Notice how Zoro did damage Kaido with a fodder cleaning move of his while Luffy blew his entire load to do damage. Meanwhile Oda doesn't want Zoro to connect his higher end moves for now. What does that tell you?
> Of course Zoro has limits too. And that move that had him wheezing out is one hyped to seriously fecked over Kaido. Luffy's all out assault hardly did anything to Kaido.


Yeah, Luffy did enough damage to cause Kaido to lay flat on the ground then had trouble getting up... While Zoro's dragon twister Kaido straight-up tanked.


maupp said:


> Zoro's move that makes him wheeze out and clearly takes quite a bit out of him but still not him going all out has hype to seriously wreck Kaido over that he'd choose to nope out of the way.


What the actual fuck? Him getting drained from ONE attack is not him going all out? No matter how you hype up an attack.. If it doesn't connect it's useless. This isn't a card battle where you compare stats.

Did you ever count how many bruises or how many times Luffy made Kaido cough up blood compared to Zoro? And you're telling me Zoro did more damage in this fight...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Sure its same as Chopper being MC as well. The point Luffy is the big kid here he will always take spotlight. __



They're all MC's and the 2 that are heading for a strength related goal get the best portrayal and feats. I always thought people knew that from the beginning.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> To everyone talking about how tired Zoro was after using Enma, how many chapters was he out of the fight for? Must of been a while, atleast 10 mins with how bad you guys are making it seem. I couldn't imagine how useless an attack would be, if it made him useless for 10 mins because he used all his haki.


Learn the difference between getting drained AFTER ONE SLASH compared to 10 minutes... Zoro still missed a giant slow dragon btw.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

I wonder if this thread will reach 50 pages like the gud ol Mihawk Vs Shanks threads



You know the MC's reach the top when the discussions about them reach the amount of responses of their benchmarks

Reactions: Like 2


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 17, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> I wonder if this thread will reach 50 pages like the guy ol Mihawk Vs Shanks threads
> 
> 
> 
> You know the MC's reach the top when the discussions about them reach the amount of responses of their benchmarks


it’ll be 2040 and Mihawk vs Shanks will still hit 50 pages

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Zoro fan giving tier specialist will not change my opinion. You guys are biased towards your own fandom its okay but stop downplaying MC for all sake it will end up disappointing  you fellas.

If you dont like my arguments skip the post its better for your sanity. For me its always Luffy >> Zoro > Sanji now dont tell i am blind hater even after reading this.

Peace out .

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

oh look users still cry about ratings in 2021

Reactions: Funny 4


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> Learn the difference between getting drained AFTER ONE SLASH compared to 10 minutes... Zoro still missed a giant slow dragon btw.


Yeah, Zoro's one slash that scared Kaido and BM as much as Luffys all out Kong gattling. 

And you're right, there is a big difference. One tired out the user for seconds, the other for 10 mins. The only similarity is how they both did no real damage to Kaido.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Im laughing


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Yeah, Zoro's one slash that scared Kaido and BM as much as Luffys all out Kong gattling.


Except Zoro can't hit his shots


ClannadFan said:


> And you're right, there is a big difference. One tired out the user for seconds, the other for 10 mins. The only similarity is how they both did no real damage to Kaido.


Yeah cough blood=No damage 

Left kaido laying on the ground and trouble getting up=no damage


And no you completely missed the point of people pointing out enma's drain.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> They're all MC's and the 2 that are heading for a strength related goal get the best portrayal and feats. I always thought people knew that from the beginning.


Thats true but downplaying luffy  is not correct. If zoro > luffy why would he join straw hat crew in first place ?


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

@Nova  and others at least I saw some people that can compete with the Z squad.

Don't take them so seriously Wigan was trying to convince me and @Beast that Blocking with swords is a durability feat.

While the other was trying to say that Zoro does not need Enma while in each chapter Oda was solo focusing on Enma.

Don't make this a personal debate, you will not win and Kinjin will warn you.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> oh look users still cry about ratings in 2021


I personally dont care about it ,  there is serious luffy downplaying here wiggins obviously he is favored to support his headcanon . You read ice slayer's post right ?


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Thats true but downplaying luffy  is not correct. If zoro > luffy why would he join straw hat crew in first place ?



Haven't seen anyone except 1-2 people saying Zoro > Luffy.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Haven't seen anyone except 1-2 people saying Zoro > Luffy.


I can list them but I am a gentleman and there are more than 2.

Close to 5 last I remember.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I can list them but I am a gentleman and there are more than 2.
> 
> Close to 5 last I remember.



You still hanging on that chapter 1001/2 prediction thread?

Give it a rest man

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Yea take your L and keep it moving.


As on WG vs the owner of the site.

I took my L against you.


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> You still hanging on that chapter 1001/2 prediction thread?
> 
> *Give it a rest man *


 NO

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> Except Zoro can't hit his shots
> 
> Yeah cough blood=No damage
> 
> ...


I mean if you think taking off 1% of Kaido's HP is worth being useless for 10 mins, then that's all you.

Zoro missed with Enma, but atleast he was smart enough to conserve enough haki so he could still be useful. Ya know, useful like carrying his Captains uselss body around when his attack did effectively no real damage.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I mean if you think taking off 1% of Kaido's HP


How do you deduces that,

And if Luffy did 1% then Zoro did 0.1% at best and I am generous as he landed just one cut.

Making him useless. With haki but useless to the job of defeating Kaido.



ClannadFan said:


> conserve enough haki so he could still be useful.


Doing what as you said Luffy with all that haki did 1%, so how is Zoro useful where Luffy the damage dealer could only do 1%?

You were saying that you were unbiassed.

But if Lufy only did 1% damage then if you removed Luffy from the Rooftop

The other 4 have no chance of even give 10% of damage going all out with PUs. Meaning what they will do means nothing.

Luffy by himself did more blows and more damage than the 4 SN + Scabbards, so if that is only 1% then the other 4 are useless as they will never deplete Kaido's HP.


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I mean if you think taking off 1% of Kaido's HP is worth being useless for 10 mins, then that's all you.
> 
> Zoro missed with Enma, but atleast he was smart enough to conserve enough haki so he could still be useful. Ya know, useful like carrying his Captains uselss body around when his attack did effectively no real damage.


Lol how do YOU quantify HP on Kaido. Are you the author? And I wouldn't call that 1% HP considering how Kaido laid on the ground then had trouble getting up

He missed with enma meaning he can't tag Snakeman speed+FS easy.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> Lol how do YOU quantify HP on Kaido. Are you the author? And I wouldn't call that 1% HP considering how Kaido laid on the ground then had trouble getting up


No the better question is if that is only 1% why are the other 4 on the RoofTop as they did way way less than that.



Nova said:


> He missed with enma meaning he can't tag Snakeman speed+FS easy.


Forget Snakeman.

Luffy dodged TB in base and Boro Breath, he will miss Base Luffy with that attack.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> No the better question is if that is only 1% why are the other 4 on the RoofTop as they did way way less than that.
> 
> 
> Forget Snakeman.
> ...


Like I honestly don't know why people bother trying to make this manga like a video game. The author can take out Kaido the next chapter if he wanted to.



Ren. said:


> @Nova  and others at least I saw some people that can compete with the Z squad.
> 
> Don't take them so seriously Wigan was trying to convince me and @Beast that Blocking with swords is a durability feat.
> 
> ...


Honestly, so many old members that actually post nice and respectful discussions left this forum to the point that trolls are taking over by posting stuff with absolute zero substance.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> Like I honestly don't know why people bother trying to make this manga like a video game. The author can take out Kaido the next chapter if he wanted to.


Neah even in games for example Cyberpunk I am a critical damage dealer.


The mobs can one-shot me but I have a sniper rifle and + critical chance +20% on 3 items.

Luffy COA 3.0 is that critical damage, without that the  4SN have no chance.


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Neah even in games for example Cyberpunk I am a critical dealer in SP.
> 
> 
> The mobs can one-shot me but I have a sniper rifle and + critical chance +20% on 3 items.
> ...


Like it's hard to gauge the max HP of a character. It's basically the author's call on whenever he wants to finish off a certain character. Like we can only gauge damage is by blood, bruises, cuts etc.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> Like it's hard to gauge the max HP of a character. It's basically the author's call on whenever he wants to finish off a certain character. Like we can only gauge damage is by blood, bruises, cuts etc.


Of course and the point of the G4 timelimit is so Luffy can not solo Kaido and that is indeed a good decision as I don't want Luffy to solo Kaido.

G4 timelimit is because he does so much damage if people say that this is nothing and that the 10m is a liability then all the other 4 are useless as even with the best AP and COA Luffy could manage only 1%.




I wonder if some even read all the panels. Kid doesn't like Luffy and he understood the point of all-out G4 attacks.

Or to add to Kid's speech, If that didn't do a thing we are fucked.


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## Zooted (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Of course and the point of the G4 timelimit is so Luffy can not solo Kaido and that is indeed a good decision as I don't want Luffy to solo Kaido.
> 
> G4 timelimit is because he does so much damage if people say that this is nothing and that the 10m is a liability then all the other 4 are useless as even with the best AP and COA Luffy could manage only 1%.
> 
> ...


Honestly I never considered G4 Luffy to solo kaido even without timelimit. Considering that dragon Kaido seems to be his weakest form for fighting strong opponents. Then we have human form who crushed the scabbards. At best, Luffy can go toe to toe with human kaido if he was given unlimited G4 then potentially loses. 

Like they're not looking at the pictures either. They just attempt to forget about all the blood Kaido coughed up from being hit by Luffy then attempt to wank Zoro's dragon twister that's at best, made kaido cough as much as Law's Gamma Knife.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> Honestly I never considered G4 Luffy to solo kaido even without timelimit. Considering that dragon Kaido seems to be his weakest form for fighting strong opponents. Then we have human form who crushed the scabbards. At best, Luffy can go toe to toe with human kaido if he was given unlimited G4 then potentially loses.


That was my take from the start and I am a Luffy fan.

Hybrid all out will low high diff even Peak Wano Luffy.



Nova said:


> Zoro's dragon twister that's at best, made kaido cough as much as Law's Gamma Knife.


The funny thing is that they admitted they are doing that because Zoro did not have a fight and they are wanking him in spit for Luffy having so many fights post TS.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

Yall just took that 1% HP thing and ran with it lmao. The point was that it wasn't a lot of damage. Obviously nobody knows the exact percentage it did.

And I'd rather be Zoro, who missed but is useful afterwards, than Luffy who hit but is useless for 10 mins.

What do you think would happen if Zoro did something like Luffy did, and now they both were out for 10 mins? This fight would be over.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

To be fair Luffy has flaws but he overcomes it in the fights thats why he tops his opponent  . Most of the fight he is in is always underdog  thats how oda sets him up.


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> The point was that it wasn't a lot of damage.


The not enough damage is 90% of the damage done to kaido, if that is not even remotely close to something then the 5 should go home PERIOD.



ClannadFan said:


> What do you think would happen if Zoro did something lile Luffy did, and now they both were out for 10 mins?


Zoro didn't do what Luffy did, he did one cut. Zoro's role here was not to be the damage dealer, he tried that with Enma while Law uses his DF to put him into that position and still missed.

Luffy's all punches do some damage and none miss ... see the diference.



if he did the same as Luffy in damage, in getting to be the target of both Yonko, in saving Killer in taking Kaido's attack then I would not say what you are saying about Luffy.

In fact Zoro did great for what his skills are now, he used to the best his Enma.

The problem is when people are saying Zoro did the most damage, saved Luffy etc, Luffy also saved Killer btw and the 2 Yonko are directly attacking Luffy while only BM indirectly targeted the SN with elemental attacks.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> That was my take from the start and I am a Luffy fan.
> 
> Hybrid all out will low high diff even Peak Wano Luffy.
> 
> ...


You see this is what I don't like. You're basically admitting you have a bias towards Luffy, which has been made pretty clear in this thread.

I can honestly say I've never let my opinions on the characters sway my judgement on the vs battles.

My 3 favorite One Piece characters in order are Luffy, Sanji, then Zoro. But that doesn't mean that I can't use the facts given to me and make realistic decisons off them.


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> You see this is what I don't like. You're basically admitting you have a bias towards Luffy, which has been made pretty clear in this thread.


Yes and?
All the others know this. I never said I was pure objective.

I am not saying something @TheWiggian  does not know ...

He is a Zoro fan and a pretty good one, he never claimed that he is objective when discussing Zoro, in fact, he agrees he upscales him because he likes him. The Blocking thing is him trolling us but in a civil way.



ClannadFan said:


> I can honestly say I've never let my opinions on the characters sway my judgement on the vs battles.


mate you are not objective at all, stop thinking you are. You said this several times but your posts disagree with you.



ClannadFan said:


> My 3 favorite One Piece characters in order are Luffy, Sanji, then Zoro. But that doesn't mean that I can't use the facts given to me and make realistic decisons off them.


sure.

I am the only one that posted panels. Don't even use facts, you are not saying facts, only Oda can do that, you are interpreting the panels and not in Luffy's favor so stop the my favorite is Luffy when you  said that Zoro is better based on "common sense" there is no factual thing about that.

I keep posting panels for a reason because your posts and most of the others are in contrast with what Oda has written.


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Dont worry  when luffy learn G5 will toast  it  and we will go back to Zoro/Sanji comparison.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Yes and?
> All the others know this. I never said I was pure objective.
> 
> I am not saying something @TheWiggian  does not know ...
> ...


What's the point in debating someone who's debating based off emotion then?

And yeah, common sense says Zoro is stronger than the version of Luffy BEFORE training. What's so hard to understand? Do you guys think Zoro's just gonna fall arcs behind Luffy?

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

Nova said:


> Did I lie though? Did he not miss a giant and slow dragon? Yeah, cause Kaido didn't try to dodge.... It would look even worst if Zoro missed a giant target that didn't try to dodge with his "fodder cleaner".
> 
> Yeah, Luffy did enough damage to cause Kaido to lay flat on the ground then had trouble getting up... While Zoro's dragon twister Kaido straight-up tanked.
> 
> ...


I know this guy he low key trashes luffy anytime he is out of focus. 

He will just loop the debate  around and downplay luffy as much as possible.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

And you mentioned something about if Luffy did so little damage then whats the point of the rest of them being on the rooftop.

If Zoro is as weak as you say, whats the point of him being the first mate?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> What's the point in debating someone who's debating based off emotion then?


I am not debating base on emotions, emotion-based arguments are when you say that he is stronger based on "common sense".


ClannadFan said:


> And yeah, common sense says Zoro is stronger


That is not a fact.

Either you debate based on feats who are the closest to non emotional debates or we are done.



ClannadFan said:


> Zoro's just gonna fall arcs behind Luffy?


Mate pre-Udon is the same arc Luffy as current Luffy.

He only got COA.

Enma Zoro is still Wano Zoro aka current Zoro with better AP.



ClannadFan said:


> If Zoro is as weak as you say, whats the point of him being the first mate?


You think Zoro being ~ WCI Luffy is weak, that Luffy defeated Katakuri a FM of a Yonko ... dear Lord that is weak now.

I am done, stop saying others are debating on emotions because you said nothing factual.

Your base argument is common sense puts Zoro above pre Udon Luffy that is Kata level a FM of a Yonko, anything else makes Zoro weak ...


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> What's the point in debating someone who's debating based off emotion then?
> 
> And yeah, common sense says Zoro is stronger than the version of Luffy BEFORE training. What's so hard to understand? Do you guys think Zoro's just gonna fall arcs behind Luffy?


Why do you guys downplay pre udon luffy ?

You are using headcanon logic please there is no common sense another zoro fan boy downplaying it.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I am not debating base on emotions, emotion-based arguments are when you say that he is stronger based on "common sense".
> 
> That is not a fact.
> 
> ...


I'm not the one claiming that Zoro can't tag Luffy. You're the one implying he's weak. 

You also choose to ignore and downplay every Zoro feat on the rooftop so far.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I'm not the one claiming that Zoro can't tag Luffy. You're the one implying he's weak.
> 
> You also choose to ignore and downplay every Zoro feat on the rooftop so far.


Mate, you were saying that you like Luffy.

I never said that  Zoro can not tag Luffy. I said he  will never land critical attacks while Luffy has Fs and 10 mods that enhance his movement speed while in Base he can now tag the feastes attack shown to us for now.

You are shitting on FS where FS just dodged TB while Luffy was in base not G2, not G4 not Snakeman not Snakeman using Gepo just base + FS.

I downplayed Zoro's damage by saying that Luffy did shit and he is now a liability, oh that was you.

In fact if you start reading I said that Zoro is a high diff to pre Udon Luffy a FM level fighter a Kata level fighter with low top tier Attacks from Enma that maybe put him to extreme.

But if he is not above pre-Udon Luffy aka above FM he is weak.

Did I say again that you are a Luffy fan and I am a Zoro hater?

Either start talking with panels and less "common sense" or we are done.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Mate, you were saying that you like Luffy.
> 
> I never said that  Zoro can not tag Luffy. I said he  will never land critical attacks while Luffy has Fs and 10 mods that enhance his movement speed while in Base he can now tag the feastes attack shown to us for now.
> 
> ...


Just because Luffy is my favorite character, doesn't mean I have to overrate his abilities. And trust me, as a Luffy fan I was dissapointed that Oda kept the G4 still draining his haki that badly. But since I'm not some little fanboy, I had to accept the fact and move on.

Its looking like you're a Zoro hater. Not as bad as the others who think Zoro loses mid or low diff, but theres some hate in there.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Its looking like you're a Zoro hater.





ClannadFan said:


> But since I'm not some little fanboy, I had to accept the fact and move on.


...

Your common sense arguments disagree with you,

If you think Zoro being A FM-level fighter as WCI Luffy is me hating on Zoro then excuse me you are not convincing anyone.

Either you do as the rest of us, discuss based on panels or you will do as you and say I am emotional.


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## ClannadFan (Feb 17, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Either start talking with panels and less "common sense" or we are done.


I can tell you really don't like common sense.

I'm honestly not nearly invested enough in this to even learn how to post panels, so we're done.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Just because Luffy is my favorite character, doesn't mean I have to overrate his abilities. And trust me, as a Luffy fan I was dissapointed that Oda kept the G4 still draining his haki that badly. But since I'm not some little fanboy, I had to accept the fact and move on.
> 
> Its looking like you're a Zoro hater. Not as bad as the others who think Zoro loses mid or low diff, but theres some hate in there.


Yeah his fans make him hate his character. Its not like Zoro fans exactly do  saint work.

Look at hate thread written by Zoro  fandom on Sanji. They even put Shogun franky above Sanji  and some even hoped Sanji to die.

You guys just look at one side of shit show .


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## Ren. (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I can tell you really don't like common sense.
> 
> I'm honestly not nearly invested enough in this to even learn how to post panels, so we're done.


I seriously don't think you know what that term means. Common sense is when someone does not want to make an argument and goes for the popular reasoning where in fact if you want to check the pool is not in your favor.

In fact, in the the1500s the common sense was that Earth was flat.

In the UK, common sense is to drive on the left side in the majority of the world is to dive on the right side.

etc.

Common sense is in fact an emotional response based on the fact that you can't show us with Zoro's feats why he is stronger.

Zoro is not weak, you just think that him being WCI Luffy level is too weak, I can respect that but also disagree.



ClannadFan said:


> learn how to post panels, so we're done.


Meaning you never even wanted to have a proper debate.

@ClannadFan  you are not a bad person but you just have a bad take from my perspective that is all.

I know why I am being so rigid, you would know if you would read what the other Zoro fans say most of the time.

In fact, I like Zoro outside NF, he will always be close to high diff to Luffy which is more than enough for me.

For "Zoro fans" on NF it is either nigh equal or above Luffy for the trolls with no feats and seriously Kinjin most of my members on Discord are diguestd by the current Zoro threads.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 17, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I can tell you really don't like common sense.
> 
> I'm honestly not nearly invested enough in this to even learn how to post panels, so we're done.


Lol .



Ren. said:


> I seriously don't think you know what that term means. Common sense is when someone does not want to make an argument and goes for the popular reasoning where in fact if you want to check the pool is not in your favor.
> 
> In fact, in the the1500s the comment sense was that Earth was flat.
> 
> ...


Dont apologise ren . You made no mistake here .

You debated well.


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## Zooted (Feb 18, 2021)

I liked Zoro before coming back to NF.... Especially a few years ago in PH and Dressrosa arc.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Ren. (Feb 18, 2021)

Nova said:


> I liked Zoro before coming back to NF.... Especially a few years ago in PH and Dressrosa arc.


Zoro is fine, one of the better characters when he is used.

Zoro's fandom in quotations is the same.

I keep hearing Luffy stans ... and I am like, who ... saying that Luffy is stronger than Zoro based on feats and not the delusion that Zoro must be nigh equal all the time because he trains is not being a stan.


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## maupp (Feb 18, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> What's the point in debating someone who's debating based off emotion then?
> 
> And yeah, common sense says Zoro is stronger than the version of Luffy BEFORE training. What's so hard to understand? *Do you guys think Zoro's just gonna fall arcs behind Luffy?*


That's what they genuinely think. These folks thinks the SH crew will be like Yonkou crews where the captain can easily body their commanders.

They think the crew will have a dynamic similar to BM and Kaido's crewd where Luffy is a BM or Kaido while Zoro is a Katakuri or King. They genuinely expect that sort of gap power wise which is why they subscribe to these ideas that current Zoro would be weaker than a version of Luffy that is several times weaker than his current self.

You're talking to people who believe that Zoro and Sanji together couldn't beat a guy Luffy beat alone(Rob Lucci thread). 



ClannadFan said:


> I can tell you really don't like common sense.
> 
> I'm honestly not nearly invested enough in this to even learn how to post panels, *so we're done.*


Wise move.

Reactions: Like 5 | Dislike 1


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## Ren. (Feb 18, 2021)

maupp said:


> You're talking to people who believe that Zoro and Sanji together couldn't beat a guy Luffy beat alone


You mean the Lucci thing.

You think that Luffy can't defeat Mr1 in Alabasta ... spare me. You have a meme of Zoro on top of Kaido   

You guys keep on saying Luffy and Zoro must be nigh equal. Good for you.


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## Kingslayer (Feb 18, 2021)

maupp said:


> Wise move.


Can you do that for sanji you occasionally  shit on ? You are one hell of a biased user  but cry when ren and other shits on zoro.


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## Ren. (Feb 18, 2021)

The amount of you are a hater if Zoro can not be nigh equal to Luffy from 10 individuals, would make mount Everest small.


... This is the debate you guys like.


The problem is that Oda did this with a purpose.

And you guys can not understand that the gap from Luffy to Zoro fluctuates ... that is all but Luffy will always be stronger.

And even in Whisky Peak Zoro was never his equal, I mean Oda even put a databook saying Zoro is the strongest just leave Luffy out of the equation.

So spare me the crap that I am a hater where you guys keep saying that Zoro low diffs Sanji and Luffy must lose to Zoro now because of Enma and no matter the feats and PU Zoro stays nigh equal to Luffy.
I mean I had to put up with the Enma is a nerf for years ... that says it all.

Don't play the victim now.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 18, 2021)

Ren. said:


> The amount of you are a hater if Zoro can not be nigh equal to Luffy from 10 individuals, would make mount Everest small.
> 
> 
> ... This is the debate you guys like.
> ...


I actually rate zoro > sanji  given from feat  and story so far . Obviously Sanji's storyline is complete different he has emotional background and honestly it would be boring if he is Zoro 2.0 .

I like Sanji where he is right now. I watched that video it certainly made good analysis.


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## Ren. (Feb 18, 2021)

Look at the number of Zoro threads from the top. I can count 6 from the top 15.

And somehow Luffy stans exist in this forum and the most they say yeah Luffy is stronger in Wano than Zoro in Wano ... damn what a Zoro hater I am.

Common logic my posterior.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 18, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Look at the number of Zoro threads from the top. I can count 6 from the top 15.
> 
> And somehow Luffy stans exist in this forum and the most they say yeah Luffy is stronger in Wano than Zoro in Wano ... damn what a Zoro hater I am.


I think its because of wano arc.  Some are hardcore naruto fans follows Zoro because he is more related to the series they watched.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 18, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> actually rate zoro > sanji


Luffy>Zoro>Sanji.

That is the dynamic.

Now Zoro comes close to Luffy when he gets PUs, When Luffy got G2 and G3 he made a bigger lead, but now he got G4, FS, and COA 3.0 while Zoro got only Enma ... feats do not put him above pre Udon Luffy at all.

Sanji got RJ closing the gap to pre Enma Zoro now Enma enlarged the gap.

Etc.

No Zoro is night equal even in Wano to Luffy that got G4, FS and COA and he is stronger than Sanji even with Rj before Enma if not you are a Zoro hater.


Good luck with that. Oda played you once more with his hype.


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## Kingslayer (Feb 18, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Luffy>Zoro>Sanji.
> 
> That is the dynamic.
> 
> ...


Yea thats the whole point of the debate now right whether Enma zoro closed the gap between him and pre udon luffy.

Luffy right now has Advanced Ryou and has powerup to damage kaido unlike before.

How much ever i like sanji he will not catch up to zoro now with raid suit that is very logical . I follow the progress of the story sanji is always 3rd strongest in lineup.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 18, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Yea thats the whole point of the debate now right whether Enma zoro closed the gap between him and pre udon luffy.
> 
> Luffy right now has Advanced Ryou and has powerup to damage kaido unlike before.
> 
> How much ever i like sanji he will not catch up to zoro now with raid suit that is very logical . I follow the progress of the story sanji is always 3rd strongest in lineup.


If you read clearly even in this thread the main argument is from hype and the fact that somehow Zoro should stay nigh equal to Luffy.

And I am not exaggerating, the common sense thing comes from there.

Luffy got G4, then experience with it from 3 fights and one with kaido somehow, FS and experience with it on Wano and Kata fight but Zoro with no fights and no new moves feats or anything is relatively the same as him, furthermore, he gets above that level with just an unmastered Enma that looks like G4 in power and mastery from DressRosa.

Now after he gets the strongest level of COA, more stats in the AP from Udon, Zoro is still night equal to all-out Luffy but this time Luffy can win.

And this is common sense.

Now if we flip to Sanji, Sanji got RJ, Zoro defeats him no problem, Zoro gets Enma Zoro low diffs Sanji.   

I am sorry that is BS.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Ren. (Feb 18, 2021)

The people that call me a hater said that Luffy can no defeat Alabasta Mr1 but that Zoro has a chance against Lucci in EL ...  
And the reason was simple, nigh equal but Mr1 could be damaged only by Zoro so a mismatch of stats.

Yeah, Lucci was not just faster, deadlier, and more skilled than Kaku by so much that Kaku looked like a joke in stats, What Luffy can do Zoro can but against Mr1 only Zoro can.
Now were are in Wano and Zoro can damage with his regular sword Kaido with no proper COA training or new COA ... 

Guess we are back to asspull feats like Breath of all things and Asura but somewhat Luffy is the king of plot armor


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## Kingslayer (Feb 18, 2021)

Ren. said:


> If you read clearly even in this thread the main argument is from hype and the fact that somehow Zoro should stay nigh equal to Luffy.
> 
> And I am not exaggerating, the common sense thing comes from there.
> 
> ...


Amount of training  luffy did in udon  with hyou was insane , i dont think  zoro could replicate that tbh.

Luffy is using the haki similar to Dark king and Admirals .  If Zoro achieves those stats i will think about zoro vs luffy debate.



Ren. said:


> The people that call me a hater said that Luffy can no defeat Alabasta Mr1 but that Zoro has a chance against Lucci in EL ...
> And the reason was simple, nigh equal but Mr1 could be damaged only by Zoro so a mismatch of stats.
> 
> Yeah, Lucci was not just faster, deadlier, and more skilled than Kaku by so much that Kaku looked like a joke in stats, What Luffy can do Zoro can but against Mr1 only Zoro can.
> ...



The difference between Crocodile and Mr.1 is vast. Though i would say Zoro had knowledge of ryou from koushiro.

Those three fights luffy grew insane even without his haki because he has natural stronger AP . People really do underestimate  luffy here because of his rubber df even i did  earlier

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 18, 2021)

I thibk even Blackbeard praised how luffy's haki grew stronger from the last time . So top tier fighter can figure what level luffy was back then.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 18, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> The difference between Crocodile and Mr.1 is vast. Though i would say Zoro had knowledge of ryou from koushiro.
> 
> Those three fights luffy grew insane even without his haki because he has natural stronger AP . People really do underestimate  luffy here because of his rubber df even i did  earlier


His AP was town level in Alabasta while  Zoro was at a large building. Calculated with math.

That is enough to pulverize steel or just break it.



Dark Shadow said:


> Though i would say Zoro had knowledge of ryou from koushiro.


Yes I never said it is not possible but again this is awakening something advance before the basic, similar to Luffy awakening FS to battle Enel with his mantra. And we still shit on Luffy for getting Fs to this day.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jo Ndule (Feb 18, 2021)

Post a scan of kaido dodging Zoro
Post a scan of zoro or any SN commenting that Kaido dodged

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 18, 2021)

Ren. said:


> His AP was town level in Alabasta while  Zoro was at a large building. Calculated with math.
> 
> That is enough to pulverize steel or just break it.
> 
> ...


You can say luffy is young version of  garp.

Why do you think Garp was nearly appointed to admiral and whacked guys like Xebec and Roger with no df.

Reactions: Like 1


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## fenaker (Feb 18, 2021)

- After reading through luffy wankers replies , they said nothing it has to be great for WORO to carry your useless favorite body for 10 min while protecting / defending / attacking / evading yonko attacks , he is doing 2 works something ur wanked luffy never did to him  .
- Luffy used his second strongest attack after KKG to date to strike Kaido and had meme laughed at him after that , and Kaido just took a nap and stood up like nothing happened and used his tornado .
- Kaido still didn't take ultora gari / shi shishi sonson / rashomon / 1080 pound canon .......... but he still bled or chose to dodge

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mihawk (Feb 18, 2021)

Damn this shit went on for 17 pages.

I mean, is it really that important?


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## Ren. (Feb 18, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> I mean, is it really that important?


NO.


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## MrPopo (Feb 18, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Damn this shit went on for 17 pages.
> 
> I mean, is it really that important?


My favorite character can beat up your favorite character

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Ren. (Feb 18, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> My favorite character can beat up your favorite character


My favorite character is so much more than your favorite character.


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## Kingslayer (Feb 18, 2021)

fenaker said:


> *- After reading through luffy wankers replies , they said nothing it has to be great for WORO to carry your useless favorite body for 10 min while protecting / defending / attacking / evading yonko attacks , he is doing 2 works something ur wanked luffy never did to him  .
> - Luffy used his second strongest attack after KKG to date to strike Kaido and had meme laughed at him after that , and Kaido just took a nap and stood up like nothing happened and used his tornado .
> - Kaido still didn't take ultora gari / shi shishi sonson / rashomon / 1080 pound canon .......... but he still bled or chose to dodge *


No nut november finished shishio.

We have made all analysis enma zoro is not beating  udon luffy. Still wanna continue bring you boi cinera he will make better arguments.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ho11ow (Feb 18, 2021)

So by conclusion, how many arcs Zoro need to be stronger than pre-udon Luffy?


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## fenaker (Feb 18, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> No nut november finished shishio.
> 
> We have made all analysis enma zoro is not beating  udon luffy. Still wanna continue bring you boi cinera he will make better arguments.


what arguments ? the argument of luffy being an hindrance right now ? or Ruffy couldn't outperform Zoro here while protecting him and attacking in the same time next time ask luffy to do the same oops he can't

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Dunno (Feb 18, 2021)

Nova said:


> Did I lie though? Did he not miss a giant and slow dragon? Yeah, cause Kaido didn't try to dodge.... It would look even worst if Zoro missed a giant target that didn't try to dodge with his "fodder cleaner".
> 
> Yeah, Luffy did enough damage to cause Kaido to lay flat on the ground then had trouble getting up... While Zoro's dragon twister Kaido straight-up tanked.
> 
> ...


Luffy hit him with all he had, to the point he ran out of stamina and couldn't fight any more. And what did Kaido do in response? He used a regular Dragon Twister. He didn't use his upgraded Dragon Twister and he didn't go hybrid. Those he only used after Zoro overpowered the move Kaido used in response to Luffy's entire barrage. Judging by Kaido's response, Zoro did significantly more to him than Luffy did.

Zoro was drained for a couple of second at most. Compared to Luffy's ten minutes, that's nothing.

Reactions: Like 4


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 18, 2021)

ho11ow said:


> So by conclusion, how many arcs Zoro need to be stronger than pre-udon Luffy?


Eos Zoro loses against pre udon Luffy 

He's too slow and cant tag him 

Luffy low diff

Reactions: Like 3 | GODA 1


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## Beast (Feb 18, 2021)

maupp said:


> Yeah an attack that had Kaido noping out of it and Big Mom shook. Of course it took quite some juice out of him. What did Luffy all out attacks accomplish against Kaido? Hardly anything.
> 
> Meanwhile Zoro missed attack has hype to seriously hurt Kaido and it's only made him whize out while Luffy is currently a sitting duck despite his entire load hardly doing anything to Kaido.


What’s noping?

I hope you don’t mean dodge... which never happened.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Feb 18, 2021)

ho11ow said:


> So by conclusion, how many arcs Zoro need to be stronger than pre-udon Luffy?


End of Wano Zoro most likely.

Y'all keep being terribly dishonest about opinions that don't amount to outright gargling on zoro's balls.

Nothing in this thread even indicates that zoro will never be able to beat pre-udon luffy. But y'all got your narratives to push I guess.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Beast (Feb 18, 2021)

The funniest excuse to me is... G5 luffy incoming, so current Zoro is stronger then G4 luffy 

I'm sure Zoro will get another sword and more of Odens aura if he is lucky towards the end of the arc anyway.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## maupp (Feb 18, 2021)

Beast said:


> What’s noping?
> 
> I hope you don’t mean dodge... which never happened.


Sure. Whatever makes you sleep at night.


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## Beast (Feb 18, 2021)

maupp said:


> Sure. Whatever makes you sleep at night.


If you can show us Kaidou dodging... there would be no need for that silly comment.

I wonder why...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## fenaker (Feb 18, 2021)

Beast said:


> If you can show us Kaidou dodging... there would be no need for that silly comment.
> 
> I wonder why...


mid stan it's easy to body u like ur favorite .
i have proofs for him dodging :
1- you have big mom saying dodge
2- you have in the next panel speedlines which show kaido mvms + some lines in his head proved that his head also moved
3- you can see kaido panting which means he did an effort


take ur L and sit down like Mid

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## Dunno (Feb 18, 2021)

Beast said:


> The funniest excuse to me is... G5 luffy incoming, so current Zoro is stronger then G4 luffy
> 
> I'm sure Zoro will get another sword and more of Odens aura if he is lucky towards the end of the arc anyway.


Zoro currently deals more damage with a mid level attack than G4 Luffy does with an all-out barrage, which means that  Luffy doesn't seem to be anywhere close to Zoro at the moment. This makes little sense, considering we all know that Luffy will never be much weaker than Zoro. Thus, it's reasonable to assume that he has something else in the tank. 

Let me ask you this, how much damage do you think Luffy will deal to Kaido? Because to me, it looks like he needs to be able to do more than tickle Kaido and then be literally carried around by his team mates for ten minutes, if he's supposed to contribute significantly to the fight.

Reactions: Like 2


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## fenaker (Feb 18, 2021)

Beast said:


> The funniest excuse to me is... G5 luffy incoming, so current Zoro is stronger then G4 luffy
> 
> I'm sure Zoro will get another sword and more of Odens aura if he is lucky towards the end of the arc anyway.


Zoro with mid level attacks did better than all out Gear 4th and never used his end moves and this is without Asura and mid stan talks about Gear 5th

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 18, 2021)

ho11ow said:


> So by conclusion, how many arcs Zoro need to be stronger than pre-udon Luffy?



Apparently none unless he learns FS himself (    ). Zoro can't tag Luffy.

So yea he is not surpassing pre Udon Luffy. By EoS Luffy will easily solo his whole crew and grand fleet too ^^

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Beast (Feb 18, 2021)

fenaker said:


> mid stan it's easy to body u like ur favorite .
> i have proofs for him dodging :
> 1- you have big mom saying dodge
> 2- you have in the next panel speedlines which show kaido mvms + some lines in his head proved that his head also moved
> ...


1. BM says to dodge but Kaidou has listened exactly... zero times, I said Kaidou dodging not BM telling you do so. Kaidou has yet to listen one thing BM has told him in this fight lol. 

2. Lol, Speed lines that’s a funny one. Except you’ve drawn around exactly 2 lines that could be considered movement while the other circles are as useless as a bag of shit. 

3. Kaidou panting? Fanfic is at all time high, Kaidou if anything was sweating over Enma aka Odens aura as he has done since it’s been revealed.

4. meeting face to face? Where was that? Zoro is still the same distance from Kaidou as he was at the start of his attack.

it’s funny when people just steal little things from other sites and others to make it seem like they did something themselves... funnier when it’s wrong.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Beast (Feb 18, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Zoro currently deals more damage with a mid level attack than G4 Luffy does with an all-out barrage, which means that  Luffy doesn't seem to be anywhere close to Zoro at the moment. This makes little sense, considering we all know that Luffy will never be much weaker than Zoro. Thus, it's reasonable to assume that he has something else in the tank.
> 
> Let me ask you this, how much damage do you think Luffy will deal to Kaido? Because to me, it looks like he needs to be able to do more than tickle Kaido and then be literally carried around by his team mates for ten minutes, if he's supposed to contribute significantly to the fight.


What mid level attacks?
The same attack that he had to use both arms and had him breathing like he run a mile?
Yeah, tell us more. Zoro hasn’t done any damage that could be considered more then luffy... so where exactly are you getting this information of more damage? I would like to see it because it’s not in any chapter in the manga of One piece.


there’s a thread for it already and everyone with a functioning brain knows luffy has done more then all the SNs put together. 
once you actually post a reply with actual truth then I’ll reply to you but from now on, I’m going back to just laughing at your shitty fanfic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ho11ow (Feb 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> End of Wano Zoro most likely.
> 
> Y'all keep being terribly dishonest about opinions that don't amount to outright gargling on zoro's balls.
> 
> Nothing in this thread even indicates that zoro will never be able to beat pre-udon luffy. But y'all got your narratives to push I guess.


Now now don't be exaggerated. Why I'm ask how many arc Zoro need if he will never surpasses pre-udon Luffy?


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## Kroczilla (Feb 18, 2021)

ho11ow said:


> Now now don't be exaggerated. Why I'm ask how many arc Zoro need if he will never surpasses pre-udon Luffy?


And I am answering your question, while also pointing out that that the narrative you are trying to push (explicitly or otherwise) is straight up BS.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dunno (Feb 18, 2021)

Beast said:


> What mid level attacks?
> The same attack that he had to use both arms and had him breathing like he run a mile?
> Yeah, tell us more. Zoro hasn’t done any damage that could be considered more then luffy... so where exactly are you getting this information of more damage? I would like to see it because it’s not in any chapter in the manga of One piece.
> 
> ...


The move that first overpowered the attack Kaido used in response to Luffy's barrage, and then cut through his scales. The same move he used against the fodder on Fishman Island. After Luffy's attack, Kaido used a move. After Zoro's attack, Kaido used an upgraded version of the same move and then went into hybrid mode. Anyone with a functioning brain can see that Zoro did significantly more damage than Luffy, and without running out of steam.

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 1


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## ho11ow (Feb 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> And I am answering your question, while also pointing out that that the narrative you are trying to push (explicitly or otherwise) is straight up BS.


What the narrative I try to push? You just make interpretation about something I didn't post and call it BS?

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Kroczilla (Feb 18, 2021)

ho11ow said:


> What the narrative I try to push? You just make interpretation about something I didn't post and call it BS?


It's the narrative that saying zoro currently can't beat pre-udon luffy means saying he probably never can.

Also given some of the posts in this and other thread, it is a terribly transparent effort on your part.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> It's the narrative that saying zoro currently can't beat pre-udon luffy means saying *he probably never can.*
> 
> Also given some of the posts in this and other thread, it is a terribly transparent effort on your part.



It was me who said that as a joke. But you guys probably really believe that as he will still remain slow with no mobility boost abilities till the end.

So i didn't lie actually 

Next arc same shit will happen. Zoro can't tag wano Luffy due to FS

Reactions: Like 1


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## ho11ow (Feb 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> It's the narrative that saying zoro currently can't beat pre-udon luffy means saying he probably* never can.
> 
> Also given some of the posts in this and other thread,* it is a terribly transparent effort on your part.


Post it then.

So now asking simple question like " So by conclusion, how many arcs Zoro need to be stronger than pre-udon Luffy? " is pushing BS agenda when there's many post in this thread saying something like Luffy always arcs away stronger than Zoro, Zoro not gonna tag Luffy because he didn't FS, etc etc

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Feb 18, 2021)

ho11ow said:


> Post it then.
> 
> So now asking simple question like " So by conclusion, how many arcs Zoro need to be stronger than pre-udon Luffy? " is pushing BS agenda when there's many post in this thread saying something like Luffy always arcs away stronger than Zoro, Zoro not gonna tag Luffy because he didn't FS, etc etc


I am not gonna comb through an 18 paged thread as well as dozens others for your satisfaction.

Pointing out that zoro doesn't has the feats YET to tag Luffy =/= saying he is several arcs behind Luffy. 

Much the same way in out discussion yesterday, pointing out the big mom isnt a character known for speed =\= she is a slow poke or some shit.


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## ho11ow (Feb 18, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Pointing out that zoro doesn't has the feats YET to tag Luffy =/= saying he is several arcs behind Luffy.


Who said zoro doesn't has the feats YET to tag Luffy = saying he is several arcs behind Luffy?
What I'm saying is there's post about Zoro not gonna tag Luffy because he doesn't have FS. There's also post saying Luffy always arcs away stronger than Zoro. So stop interpreted my post the wrong way and accusing about some BS agenda


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## Beast (Feb 18, 2021)

the man that is willingly taking hits, that has not been able to dodge attacks from scabbards in dragon form... now, dodged Zoro at point blank. Amazing.

The same Kaidou that hasn’t been listening to BM... randomly started to listening to her and in response, BM Said he was STILL underestimating the SN. Brilliant.

Zoro saying he missed but he really meant Kaidou dodged. Genius.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## fenaker (Feb 18, 2021)

Beast said:


> the man that is willingly taking hits, that has not been able to dodge attacks from scabbards in dragon form... now, dodged Zoro at point blank. Amazing.
> 
> The same Kaidou that hasn’t been listening to BM... randomly started to listening to her and in response, BM Said he was STILL underestimating the SN. Brilliant.
> 
> Zoro saying he missed but he really meant Kaidou dodged. Genius.


so nothing u provided nice try genius , next time tell Kaido to not pant because of enma and to not move his head

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## convict (Feb 18, 2021)

I see the poll has progressed to being a tie right now. I hope people are man enough to change their votes as new feats come in.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 18, 2021)

convict said:


> I see the poll has progressed to being a tie right now. I hope people are man enough to change their votes as new feats come in.



Final War Zoro is still going to be below Wano Luffy because he can't tag a future sight user

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## maupp (Feb 18, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> It was me who said that as a joke. But you guys probably really believe that as he will still remain slow with no mobility boost abilities till the end.
> 
> So i didn't lie actually
> 
> Next arc same shit will happen. Zoro can't tag wano Luffy due to FS


Some people in these battledome treat Zoro like some slug when it comes to match ups. These slow arguments always pop up with Zoro especially when there aren't much argument to back against Zoro. Sanji vs Zoro vs threads are usually filled with them slow arguments.

Same people already used these slow arguments for Sanji, what did you expect would have happened with FS Luffy?

You'd think common sense would prevail but nope just pretend speed will cut it against Zoro.

Oda had the guy in a fight against 2 bloody Yonkous but we're just going to pretend Pre Udon Luffy's speed is going to be some impossible stint to deal with for Zoro.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 18, 2021)

I'd like to take a different approach to this. Everyone's talking about speed but there's another factor to overcoming FS for those who aren't just massively faster like Kaido. Unpredictability/trickiness.

Can you guys supporting Zoro honestly tell me Zoro's attacks are anywhere near as tricky or non-linear as Jet Culverin from Snakeman Luffy? What aspect about them would make them harder to dodge when Luffy knows exactly where they will be coming from (and don’t just give me “Zoro’s attacks have massive range/area of effect!” Since Pre-Udon Luffy had no issues dodging a massive AOE Boro Breath from Kaido in base form)? I can't see Luffy easily getting fooled thinking a sword swing will come from one direction and then it comes from a different direction. Jet Culverin had to completely arc behind Katakuri and hit him from the other side to confuse his FS the way it did. And Luffy has that same FS, has pre-existing knowledge on Zoro's fighting style, and better combat intelligence than Zoro (yes Luffy's usually an idiot but the ideas he's come up with mid-battle and the ways he's stretched his Devil Fruit's creative potential to its limits are insane).

It's not just a random person with FS and high speed, it's Luffy with FS and high speed. Luffy already was good at utilizing his stretchiness to dodge in ways only he could (pulling his head out of the way of an attack, making his legs coil up like a spring to duck, contorting and twisting his body in ways others can't, etc...). Adding FS on top of that only gives him more options as he can tailor his method of dodging to the opponent's attack pre-emptively.

Let's add some depth into this debate and go more into the technique/skill side of things rather than just going on and on about stats and nothing else.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> I'd like to take a different approach to this. Everyone's talking about speed but there's another factor to overcoming FS for those who aren't just massively faster like Kaido. Unpredictability/trickiness.
> 
> Can you guys supporting Zoro honestly tell me Zoro's attacks are anywhere near as tricky or non-linear as Jet Culverin from Snakeman Luffy? What aspect about them would make them harder to dodge when Luffy knows exactly where they will be coming from (and don’t just give me “Zoro’s attacks have massive range/area of effect!” Since Pre-Udon Luffy had no issues dodging a massive AOE Boro Breath from Kaido in base form)? I can't see Luffy easily getting fooled thinking a sword swing will come from one direction and then it comes from a different direction. Jet Culverin had to completely arc behind Katakuri and hit him from the other side to confuse his FS the way it did. And Luffy has that same FS, has pre-existing knowledge on Zoro's fighting style, and better combat intelligence than Zoro (yes Luffy's usually an idiot but the ideas he's come up with mid-battle and the ways he's stretched his Devil Fruit's creative potential to its limits are insane).
> 
> ...


Perfect post as always and we don't always agree on things.



xenos5 said:


> Let's add some depth into this debate and go more into the technique/skill side of things rather than just going on and on about stats and nothing else.


Let's be serious they are ignoring panels from 923 and you expect a debate of that level?
We can do that for Kata vs Snakeman and we did, Zoro fans doing an objective debate is something next to blasphemy for them.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

And mister formal mod. It was always in favor of Luffy the pool, now damn finally it is a tie ... tells a lot of the man that was the cause of my ban, and the culture of mod for mod while the excuses were nothing more than lies.

Let alone that the pool expresses an opinion like the common sense that was written as an argument before.

Hard to have arguments when you can't be objective.

Oh never mind it is 31-30 again


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

maupp said:


> Some people in these battledome treat Zoro like some slug when it comes to match ups. These slow arguments always pop up with Zoro especially when there aren't much argument to back against Zoro. Sanji vs Zoro vs threads are usually filled with them slow arguments.
> 
> Same people already used these slow arguments for Sanji, what did you expect would have happened with FS Luffy?
> 
> ...


Why are you crying so much ? You expect Zoro to be  treated as god then dont expect me to wank for that marimo heado.  We gave our arguments dont like ignore and continue it but dont expect people to swallow the headcanon arguments you keep coming up with .



Ren. said:


> And mister formal mod. It was always in favor of Luffy the pool, now damn finally it is a tie ... tells a lot of the man that was the cause of my ban, and the culture of mod for mod while the excuses were nothing more than lies.
> 
> Let alone that the pool expresses an opinion like the common sense that was written as an argument before.
> 
> ...


Amount of time luffy is looked down here is amazing . They are saying his torando ability  >> the luffy's kicking   he has given to kaido . I mean what can i expect they  even made this thread  to show Zoro  > luffy that was their very mischievous intention .

I dunno why kinjin didnt lock this thread ?  This is getting boring now .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## convict (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> And *mister formal mod*. It was always in favor of Luffy the pool, now damn finally it is a tie ... *tells a lot of the man that was the cause of my ban*, and the culture of mod for mod while the excuses were nothing more than lies.



Is this in reference to me? Because I opted out of being involved in decision-making on issuing bans years ago and had no involvement in whatever it is that got you put in the slammer.



> Can you guys supporting Zoro honestly tell me Zoro's attacks are anywhere near as tricky or non-linear as Jet Culverin from Snakeman Luffy?



He can create tornadoes on par with Kaido's which sent Killer and Kid flying and screaming, he can send out long range attacks of varying strengths and he can create the illusion of tripling his limbs and swords. He has plenty of tricky attacks to put pressure on Luffy and his dollar-store version of Katakuri's future sight.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Amount of time luffy is looked down here is amazing . They are saying his torando ability >> the luffy's kicking he has given to kaido . I mean what can i expect they even made this thread to show Zoro > luffy that was their very mischievous intention .
> 
> I dunno why kinjin didnt lock this thread ? This is getting boring now .


Kinjin doesn't care ... if it is against the "Zoro community" then he will take action, the only way to counter this is to make a community that protects other characters from this shit.

Also again if the reason for this debate is Zoro tagging Kaido's attacks, base Luffy point black dodged boro's breath with no G2 and with the Horse Smile on his back, meaning he had enough time to grab her and soru away an  AOE attack.


So the but Zoro has enough speed feats to counter FS and on top of that SN is fanfiction, All out Kata and Snakman with FS and gepo shit on 923  Luffy that dodged an AOE attack from Kaido point black.

So Zoro does not have enough feats to say he can counter FS, FS+ Snakeman + gepo is another tier of speed.

AOE attacks:  923 base Luffy dodged Boro breath.

This is how I see debating been done in PL arena sections, not he never goes all out, Enma is a nerf, he always is nigh equal to Luffy BS that is the same as the op community for decades etc.

We are discussing current Zoro aka what he has done until now not the hypothetical end of Wano Zoro that has high chances of defeating pre-Udon Luffy.
But again this means that the Arena has standards similar to the Naruto Arena or the ODB who is busting my balls @xenos5  but they have rules and I respect that. No in all forums OP PL debates are treated with no rules for some reason.

If you go and debate with he never goes all out in the naruto Arena or I interpret that Sasuke and Naruto are always nigh equal so one did this so the other can do something similar, they will be NO, so ... we don't care, the door is there >>

And that is all from me.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> *Kinjin doesn't care ... if it is against the "Zoro community" then he will take action, the only way to counter this is to make a community that protects other characters from this shit.*
> 
> Also again if the reason for this debate is Zoro tagging Kaido's attacks, base Luffy point black dodged boro's breath with no G2 and with the Horse Smile on his back, meaning he had enough time to grab her and soru away an  AOE attack.
> 
> ...



Oh we finally get a confession. Thanks for admitting that there is a certain hate community that has it out for the grandmaster.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 19, 2021)

convict said:


> He can create tornadoes on par with Kaido's which sent Killer and Kid flying and screaming,


Maybe the anime will showcase it better but I honestly didn't get the impression it was as big as Kaido's partially due to how zoomed in the panel showing it was, and also how it just seemed to dissipate right after landing on Kaido.

And like I mentioned Luffy avoided Boro Breath in base so the tornado wouldn't be unavoidable, regardless. Luffy could just grab onto something (part of the ground, or a building or whatever else) and pull himself out of the way. He could also wrap his arm around something to anchor himself to it. Or in G4 he could just fly out of range while preparing his next attack. 


convict said:


> he can send out long range attacks of varying strengths


But can he change the directions of those long range attacks after they've already been fired? That's what Luffy does with Jet Culverin, in combination with the attack increasing in speed each time it turns. 


convict said:


> and he can create the illusion of tripling his limbs and swords.


But would that illusion really fool Luffy's CoO? When we were shown Rayleigh flashbacks it was made clear Luffy's specialized in sensing the feelings of people and animals. Even as Luffy's learned Advanced CoO that's still remained true. Except in addition to that he can see the outline of future actions (especially when he closes his eyes and focuses like he did here    ) . So Luffy should be able to sense Zoro's "true body" or whatever unless Zoro shows he can fool CoO of that level.


convict said:


> He has plenty of tricky attacks to put pressure on Luffy and his dollar-store version of Katakuri's future sight.


I don't think an air slash coming straight at Luffy is that tricky. And while I won't say Luffy's FS is perfectly consistent (though honestly you could put part of the times it's failed to activate on it being inconvenient for the plot for it to work the way it should all the time. and that wouldn't be a factor in a VS thread like this where plot influences aren't enabled anyway) I wouldn't go as far as calling it a dollar store version of Kata's. the way he dodged Flampe's second silent numbing needle while barely conscious and that one barrage from Katakuri goes to show it's still the real deal and genuinely much more impressive than basic CoO. Surprising a Luffy using FS is not easy at all. It's supposed to be a genuine challenge. Especially for someone who has yet to prove how good their CoO is and explicitly failed to defend against a much less subtle surprise attack from Gyukimaru. So Luffy is much more likely to be able to see through Zoro's attack patterns and be able to get counter hits in than vice versa.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Oh we finally get a confession. Thanks for admitting that there is a certain hate community that has it out for the grandmaster.


Yes, there always was a hate community, your community hates all the other characters including the MC.

This thread is in fact made because Luffy has all the pre-TS fights so we must downplay any other feats from any character and upscale all Zoro's feats, I can quote several of you saying that.

FS, G3, G2, Snakeman, G4 nothing matters ... I mean you made the argument that Zoro's durability comes from him blocking with his swords 

If you search there is no Luffy X all the top tiers made by any fan of Luffy.

But there are like 15 Zoro threads vs insert a character.

And yes there needs to be a community of normal readers that say finally just no, you have the WG forum for this stuff. In fact, those normal readers say I am sick and tired of the nth Zoro x thread on discord.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> *Yes, there always was a hate community,* your community hates all the other characters including the MC.
> 
> This thread is in fact made because Luffy has all the pre-TS fights so we much downplay any other feats from any character and upscale all Zoro's feats, I can quote several of you saying that.
> 
> ...



Why cry if you get banned then?

What's the problem with making threads?


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## Kinjin (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Kinjin doesn't care ... if it is against the "Zoro community" then he will take action, the only way to counter this is to make a community that protects other characters from this shit.


I'm not sure why I keep getting mentioned in this thread when I don't even participate in it.

FYI the Zoro fan who flamed you got banned.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Kinjin said:


> I'm not sure why I keep getting mentioned in this thread when I don't even participate in it.
> 
> FYI the Zoro fan who flamed you got banned.


You are the OP mod, of course, you are going to be mentioned.



TheWiggian said:


> Why cry if you get banned then?
> 
> What's the problem with making threads?


Let me say this, In every post, you say that all the other fans hate Zoro, that is you crying what other fans think of Zoro. Saying Luffy > Zoro is hating Zoro so again crying is what most of these threads are about: he never goes all out, he was nerfed, he was whatever.
We want to discuss panels and feats not what you want to discuss.


I have no problem with making threads, 10 people that are regulars on this section have a problem with that and I am voicing it out as usual from my discord.

It seems you don't like other having a different opinion on Zoro while saying that I am crying, my reasons for what I am saying is from my experience with those that decide so you lack the context to know more.



Dark Shadow said:


> I dunno why kinjin didnt lock this thread ? This is getting boring now .


Here a prime example of what I am saying.

This is why I said we need a community of regular people that want to discuss more than Zoro x another person so we can downplay that person.

That is again the cause of all this, in no other Arena is this a problem as much as here because for some reason a community can bend the discussion every time outside of panels and feats.

So I appreciate @Nova @Beast (with who I don't often agree) that they are sticking to a pure Arena debate, not the same BS that has been in the OP forum since 145 years ago.

It is sad that the Zaraki vs Zoro and Kaido vs Madara are more objective than the Arena debates regarding both Kaido and Zoro from our own community.


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Maybe the anime will showcase it better but I honestly didn't get the impression it was as big as Kaido's partially due to how zoomed in the panel showing it was, and also how it just seemed to dissipate right after landing on Kaido.
> 
> And like I mentioned Luffy avoided Boro Breath in base so the tornado wouldn't be unavoidable, regardless. Luffy could just grab onto something (part of the ground, or a building or whatever else) and pull himself out of the way. He could also wrap his arm around something to anchor himself to it. Or in G4 he could just fly out of range while preparing his next attack.
> 
> ...


I appreciate it when someone does this.

And not the usual you hate x character shit.

Bravo mate, probably one of the best PL debaters on this forum.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> You are the OP mod, of course, you are going to be mentioned.
> 
> 
> Let me say this, In every post, you say that all the other fans hate Zoro, that is you crying what other fans think of Zoro. Saying Luffy > Zoro is hating Zoro so again crying is what most of these threads are about: he never goes all out, he was nerfed, he was whatever.
> ...



Personally battledom  is like that nothing is perfect . We can free to ignore what they say .

I think Zoro fans in OL are better than WG forum . I respect guys like wiggins and others who put up zoro portrayal and he make stand replies thats why at times i agree with this comments if we have more zoro fans like him i will be happy.

Also its upto kinjin if he wants the thread  i think he is unbiased mod not like wg ones  where they allow trolls run amock . Here its bearable , We can tonedown our language if people dont like it not a probs.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Personally battledom  is like that nothing is perfect . We can free to ignore what they say .
> 
> I think Zoro fans in OL are better than WG forum . I respect guys like wiggins and others who put up zoro portrayal.
> 
> Also its upto kinjin i think he is unbiased mod not like wg ones . Here its bearable. We can tonedown our stule if people dont like it not a probs.


Ok, let me be clear I removed my account from WG for what they did to my friend that was a mod. The fact that they used my own PM with her tells a lot about their mentality.

And I know 70% of the people from there so yeah ...


I have differences with Kinjin and we have divergences but he is a good mod.
Wiggan is a good member, I even nominated him as one of the best Zoro fans, his takes are often funny. He is better on discord by a mile but that is my perspective on that.

The problem probably is from us accepting crap that some vocal zealous fans do in here, this is why I said we need a better standard for our community like other Arena from NF, in fact, I would want an ODB standard even if I don't like it and I am having a debate on that now but that would mean a lot of vocal people would leave so it is kind of hard on the mods and I know it.

But I saw older people like @Nova  so yeah the good people are there and we have people like @Amatérasu’s Son that makes me want to do a good thread each time and not just funny ones.

This in fact is a debate, Current Zoro vs pre Udon Luffy is a debate and @xenos5  is trying his best and I one want that kind of quality.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> FS, G3, G2, Snakeman, G4 nothing matters ... I made you made the argument that Zoro's durability comes from him blocking with his swords



You keep acting that Zoro's swords are just there to decorate the character but that it's part of his defense for the whole series that blocked a massive amount of damage for him is ignored?



Ren. said:


> If you search there is no Luffy X all the top tiers made by any fan of Luffy.



And I care because?



Ren. said:


> But there are like 15 Zoro threads vs insert a character.



And I care again because?

Sounds more that you're jealous that Zoro fans are more dedicated and open minded.



Ren. said:


> And yes there needs to be a community of normal readers that say finally just no, you have the *WG forum* for this stuff. In fact, those normal readers say I am sick and tired of the nth Zoro x thread on discord.



Funny because iam not part of that forum, yet you probably are.

Dude idc about what you're tired of, you're not some kind of royalty and even if you were no one would still care.



Also why should this thread be closed because there are too many Zoro threads and you don't like it?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Wiggian, I don't care if you care and that is the point.

I care for what the other people say and they are right. Mostly people that do not speak it out loud.

So I saw the people that want to do a genuine debate, I will tag those and ignore the usual but he did not go all out fans.


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Ok, let me be clear I removed my account from WG for what they did to my friend that was a mod. The fact that they used my own PM with her tells a lot about their mentality.
> 
> And I know 70% of the people from there so yeah ...
> 
> ...


Wiggins , Convict yea they are good members . If times comes i will wank zoro for them if zoro  kills kaido , i will absolutely  support if it happen not hide behind the forum.

Yea i know that but lets not bring that up here there sre WG spies who look what people write on other place . One is already playing mafia here so we can take it to PM.

I agree but i think we should allow everyone's opinion . If it good or bad. I made weak arguments  here and there again its upto moderators whom to be on debate. I think kinjin is good mod rate him better tha  other section moderators because he responds immediately  so i have no problem.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> I agree but i think we should allow everyone's opinion . If it good or bad.


I have no problem with that. If that was the case I would not replyed to half of the people in here.

But if we want a debate based on feats we can never have that, just read this thread and I one want that and many want that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Wiggian, I don't care if you care that is the point.



You bring me up way too often for someone who doesn't care 

 

First I was a neutral Zoro fan who you even mentioned in the contest, now iam a stupid Zoro Stan that considers his swords as part of his arsenal to block damage from the very first chapters he's been introduced in.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> don't think an air slash coming straight at Luffy is that tricky. And while I won't say Luffy's FS is perfectly consistent (though honestly you could put part of the times it's failed to activate on it being inconvenient for the plot for it to work the way it should all the time. and that wouldn't be a factor in a VS thread like this where plot influences aren't enabled anyway) I wouldn't go as far as calling it a dollar store version of Kata's. the way he dodged Flampe's second silent numbing needle while barely conscious and that one barrage from Katakuri goes to show it's still the real deal and genuinely much more impressive than basic CoO. Surprising a Luffy using FS is not easy at all. It's supposed to be a genuine challenge. Especially for someone who has yet to prove how good their CoO is and explicitly failed to defend against a much less subtle surprise attack from Gyukimaru. So Luffy is much more likely to be able to see through Zoro's attack patterns and be able to get counter hits in than vice versa.


I see you use some of the Kata vs Luffy debate.

Yes if we take the feats from vs Kata and add a better FS.

Zoro's current feats are not good enough. If he does something great against Hybrid I will flip it into Zoro's side.

Keep up the good work.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I have no problem with that. If that was the case I would not replyed to half of the people in here.
> 
> But if we want a debate based on feats we can never have that, just read this thread and I one want that and many want that.


I agree but its upto users in general we can always point it to them thats the only way.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> I'd like to take a different approach to this. Everyone's talking about speed but there's another factor to overcoming FS for those who aren't just massively faster like Kaido. Unpredictability/trickiness.
> 
> Can you guys supporting Zoro honestly tell me Zoro's attacks are anywhere near as tricky or non-linear as Jet Culverin from Snakeman Luffy? What aspect about them would make them harder to dodge when Luffy knows exactly where they will be coming from (and don’t just give me “Zoro’s attacks have massive range/area of effect!” Since Pre-Udon Luffy had no issues dodging a massive AOE Boro Breath from Kaido in base form)? I can't see Luffy easily getting fooled thinking a sword swing will come from one direction and then it comes from a different direction. Jet Culverin had to completely arc behind Katakuri and hit him from the other side to confuse his FS the way it did. And Luffy has that same FS, has pre-existing knowledge on Zoro's fighting style, and better combat intelligence than Zoro (yes Luffy's usually an idiot but the ideas he's come up with mid-battle and the ways he's stretched his Devil Fruit's creative potential to its limits are insane).
> 
> ...


Luffy has a lot of tricks, but he doesn't have the raw power needed to win this fight. Just like how Usopp could put up a fight against Luffy at W7 due to his trickery, Luffy will put up somewhat of a fight here, but he's not as fast as Zoro and he's massively outclassed in power. "Overcoming FS" isn't necessary, like Kaido and Big Mom have proven. You just need to be massivley stronger, which is the case in this fight. Zoro "has no answer to future sight" just like Big Mom doesn't, but that doesn't mean Katakuri beats her.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## xenos5 (Feb 19, 2021)

Dunno said:


> Luffy has a lot of tricks, but he doesn't have the raw power needed to win this fight. Just like how Usopp could put up a fight against Luffy at W7 due to his trickery, Luffy will put up somewhat of a fight here, but he's not as fast as Zoro and he's massively outclassed in power. "Overcoming FS" isn't necessary, like Kaido and Big Mom have proven. You just need to be massivley stronger, which is the case in this fight. Zoro "has no answer to future sight" just like Big Mom doesn't, but that doesn't mean Katakuri beats her.


I don’t accept Zoro as faster let alone fast enough to blitz Luffy like Kaido can with Thunder Bagua.

And I really don’t believe Zoro’s durability is anywhere near his max output with Enma. I cannot see him tanking attacks from G4, that just seems utterly ridiculous to me. And I think Luffy would be able to endure any of the Enma attacks that don’t have the aura.

Current Unmastered Enma Zoro is not Kaido or Big Mom. He’s still in the range he’d have to have an answer to Futuresight because he can’t just replicate anything they can do. This is a team fight for a reason.

I don’t think we’re really gonna be able to agree on anything when we’re working off of such vastly different premises.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Winner 3


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> I don’t accept Zoro as faster let alone fast enough to blitz Luffy like Kaido can with Thunder Bagua.
> 
> And I really don’t believe Zoro’s durability is anywhere near his max output with Enma. I cannot see him tanking attacks from G4, that just seems utterly ridiculous to me. And I think Luffy would be able to endure any of the Enma attacks that don’t have the aura.
> 
> ...


You just have to compare Luffy vs Kaido to Zoro vs Kaido and the outcome is clear as day. One gets one-shot while the other overpowers him and forces him into hybrid mode. And no, Zoro obviously isn't as strong as Kaido, but he wouldn't even need to be close to that to beat this version of Luffy.

And G4 has been shown to be severely lacking in firepower. It couldn't put down Doflamingo, it couldn't put down Cracker, it couldn't put down Katakuri and it couldn't even do anything to Kaido. Even after Luffy added advanced CoA to it, an Kong Gatling still pales in comparison to one of Zoro's low end moves. Anyone worth their salt can tank G4 for days without much trouble.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Dunno said:


> You just have to compare Luffy vs Kaido to Zoro vs Kaido and the outcome is clear as day. One gets one-shot while the other overpowers him and forces him into hybrid mode. And no, Zoro obviously isn't as strong as Kaido, but he wouldn't even need to be close to that to beat this version of Luffy.
> 
> And G4 has been shown to be severely lacking in firepower. It couldn't put down Doflamingo, it couldn't put down Cracker, it couldn't put down Katakuri and it couldn't even do anything to Kaido. *Even after Luffy added advanced CoA to it, an Kong Gatling still pales in comparison to one of Zoro's low end moves.* Anyone worth their salt can tank G4 for days without much trouble.


So Luffy advanced COA attacks < Zoro's low end moves ???

You need to back this up .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 19, 2021)

This guy really calling G4 weak, wow

 Yeah, I can’t take that kind of BS seriously. G4 technically oneshotted Cracker considering only one move directly landed on Cracker the whole fight. So saying it “couldn’t put down Cracker” is dishonest as hell.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> So Luffy advanced COA attacks < Zoro's low end moves ???
> 
> You need to back this up .


Kaido responded to Luffy's entire barrage by using a Dragon Twister. Kaido responded to Zoro's cut by using an upgraded Dragon Twister and going hybrid. Pretty clear which move hurt him more.



xenos5 said:


> This guy really calling G4 weak, wow
> 
> Yeah, I can’t take that kind of BS seriously. G4 technically oneshotted Cracker considering only one move directly landed on Cracker the whole fight. So saying it “couldn’t put down Cracker” is dishonest as hell.


G4 beat Cracker after hours of fighting, during which both Cracker's offence and defence was heavily nerfed by Nami. Even in their nerfed state, G4 couldn't break through his soldiers for the entire duration of the battle. You don't one-shot someone you've been fighting for hours. The fact that Pre-Udon G4 Kong Organ was unable to do anything to Kaido and even current G4 Kong Gatling achieved very little is evidence that it's a weak mode.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> This guy really calling G4 weak, wow
> 
> Yeah, I can’t take that kind of BS seriously. G4 technically oneshotted Cracker considering only one move directly landed on Cracker the whole fight. So saying it “couldn’t put down Cracker” is dishonest as hell.


This is why I said we need standards while debating.

Saying this is stronger because I say so means shit.

If we calc them Zoro is not close.

I would categorize this as trolling.

Regarding speed, Zoro has yet to prove he is above Base 923 Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> This is why I said we need standards while debating.
> 
> Saying this is stronger because I say so means shit.
> 
> If we calc them Zoro is not close.


So why did Kaido use a weak ass Twister after Luffy's barrage, but a strong ass one and hybrid mode after Zoro's?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Dunno said:


> So why did Kaido use a weak ass Twister after Luffy's barrage, but a strong ass one and hybrid mode after Zoro's?


If Kaido's dragon's attacks are so fast, base Luffy would have not point-blank dodged Boro Breath in base in chapter 923 without even using G2.

If his Boro breath that has more AP than the dragon twister was so powerful G4 would not just tank it with will in chapter 1002/3.

What I am saying is that Dragon Kaido has the shitties moves from all his moves base is better and we are waiting for Hybrid.

The only top-tier move from Kaido was TB speed-wise and AP-wise.

Even the so-called wind-type attack was reacted on by Kiku as the sword was cut meaning he tried to block it aka not fast at all.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Dunno said:


> So why did Kaido use a weak ass Twister after Luffy's barrage, but a strong ass one and hybrid mode after Zoro's?


Are you seriously comparing both the attacks based on twisters ? How do you judge how kaido deemed as a threat ? 

Kaido has even commanded his red roc and said how far luffy will go farshadowing all the previous top fighters.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Zoro's attacks are ofc stronger than most g4 attacks

Hiryu kaen by hype>>>anything Luffy has shown currently

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Btw cant debate someone with cute tashigi  pfp  . Please change it to zoro or Mihawk

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> If Kaido's dragon's attacks are so fast, base Luffy would have not point-blank dodged Boro Breath in base in chapter 923.
> 
> If his Boro breath that has more AP than the dragon twister was so powerful G4 would not just tank it with will.
> 
> ...


What? I'm not talking about Boro Breath or Wind Blades. I'm talking about the two moves Dragon Twister and Upgraded Dragon Twister, as well as going Hybrid Mode. Kaido's response to Luffy's and Zoro's attacks is a direct comparison between them. Luffy attacks, and Kaido uses Dragon Twister. Zoro attacks, and Kaido uses upgraded Dragon Twister, as well as Hybrid Mode.



Dark Shadow said:


> Are you seriously comparing both the attacks based on twisters ?
> 
> Kaido has even commanded his red roc and said how far luffy will go farshadowing all the previous top fighters.


I'm comparing the attack based on Kaido's response to them. It's reasonable to assume that a stronger attack would warrant a more serious response from Kaido, and Kaido's response to Zoro's attack was far greater than to Luffy's.

Kaido commended Red Roc, but he also commended Zoro's and Killer's first attacks, which didn't do much at all. And Kaido was specifically talking about Luffy's ceiling, and how far he could go in the future. He wasn't talking about his current strength.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## maupp (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Maybe the anime will showcase it better but I honestly didn't get the impression it *was as big as Kaido's partially due to how zoomed *in the panel showing it was, and also how it just seemed to dissipate right after landing on Kaido.
> 
> And like I mentioned Luffy avoided Boro Breath in base so the tornado wouldn't be unavoidable, regardless. Luffy could just grab onto something (part of the ground, or a building or whatever else) and pull himself out of the way. He could also wrap his arm around something to anchor himself to it. Or in G4 he could just fly out of range while preparing his next attack.
> 
> ...


How big do you think Dragon Kaido is? Because if you believe he is huge(which he quite is) then that should tell you about the size of Zoro's tastumaki because it engulfed Kaido's whole. 

As to your point about Luffy avoiding Boro's breath, you're comparing a linear attack which can be avoided by getting out of the way in time to a tornado that's spinning and executes at close range engulfes it target. 

All those scenario you mentioned if Luffy grabbing something or putting his hands in the ground still won't prevent him from getting hit by the tornado which means he get cut.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Dunno said:


> What? I'm not talking about Boro Breath or Wind Blades. I'm talking about the two moves Dragon Twister and Upgraded Dragon Twister, as well as going Hybrid Mode. Kaido's response is a direct comparison between the two, Luffy attacks, and Kaido uses Dragon Twister. Zoro attacks, and Kaido uses upgraded Dragon Twister, as well as Hybrid Mode.


...

Hybrid mode was not because Zoro used a twister he did minimal damage to Kaido because of Enma.

The rest is gibberish as per usual.

How did Kaiddo respond vs Luffy's  Gatling when he was on the ground, he did not counterattack Luffy and Luffy after that was out of haki.

I don't know what are you trying to prove.

Dragon Kaido's attacks are meh, Boro Breath has more AP shown on panels vs Dragon twister or an even better Dragon Twister, Zoro chooses to use a cutting move against it and not to counter it as it did vs the twister.


You say a lot of things non related then Zoro's COA is better, literally none even mentioned Zoro's COA but Enma and we know for sure Luffy has the strongest level of COA in Wano as Oda said it so many times in the manga.

The damaging thing, Zoro landed exactly one move that damaged Kaido, one,  while Luffy has at least 10 and 1 has a not quantifiable number of landed attacks, your conclusion is Zoro did more damage his AP is better ...



maupp said:


> How big do you think Dragon Kaido is? Because if you believe he is huge(which he quite is) then that should tell you about the size of Zoro's tastumaki because it engulfed Kaido's whole.




G3 is enough for Luffy to handle that huge body. The pressure from that has no quantifiable number so we are grasping at straws.


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 19, 2021)

I would say 
G5 Luffy>Ashura Zoro>G4 Luffy=Base Zoro

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Dunno said:


> What? I'm not talking about Boro Breath or Wind Blades. I'm talking about the two moves Dragon Twister and Upgraded Dragon Twister, as well as going Hybrid Mode. Kaido's response to Luffy's and Zoro's attacks is a direct comparison between them. Luffy attacks, and Kaido uses Dragon Twister. Zoro attacks, and Kaido uses upgraded Dragon Twister, as well as Hybrid Mode.
> 
> 
> I'm comparing the attack based on Kaido's response to them. It's reasonable to assume that a stronger attack would warrant a more serious response from Kaido, and Kaido's response to Zoro's attack was far greater than to Luffy's.
> ...


Hmm  i think you made some point  on saying level of threat he saw with enma is greater than other attacks we saw. 

However you are still underrating the red roc attack . Kaido would have laughed it off if it was some random attack .


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## xenos5 (Feb 19, 2021)

maupp said:


> How big do you think Dragon Kaido is? Because if you believe he is huge(which he quite is) then that should tell you about the size of Zoro's tastumaki because it engulfed Kaido's whole.
> 
> As to your point about Luffy avoiding Boro's breath, you're comparing a linear attack which can be avoided by getting out of the way in time to a tornado that's spinning and executes at close range engulfes it target.
> 
> All those scenario you mentioned if Luffy grabbing something or putting his hands in the ground still won't prevent him from getting hit by the tornado which means he get cut.


Nah. I don’t think Kaido’s whole entire body was inside it. The area near his head seemed to be the primary target. That’s the only place a big cut appears. And more than that I looked back at the page and you can see a section of Kaido’s body in the foreground outside of the winds (close to Zoro’s sword).

And nah, Luffy extending his arm and pulling himself away from the tornado would work as he’d be far enough away the winds wouldn’t reach him. It’s not like Zoro can control it after it’s been fired to chase after a target, he doesn’t have weather control like Kaido or Big Mom. It would just spin in place at the same spot the attack was unleashed.

Flight in G4 should especially work since he’d be actively resulting the pull of the wind with his propulsion.


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## maupp (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> This guy really calling G4 weak, wow
> 
> Yeah, I can’t take that kind of BS seriously. G4 technically oneshotted Cracker considering only one move directly landed on Cracker the whole fight. So saying it “couldn’t put down Cracker” is dishonest as hell.


But he's technically right, nothing to be amused about. It's a fact that G4 hasn't managed to defeat anyone solid in its initial time window. Even since all the way back to Doflamingo days (who had already taken massive amount of damages pre G4 assault) it didn't put its target down when Luffy went all out with it.

He needed a second crack with G4(after people saved him from DD finishing him after G4 ran out).

G4 has faced Mingo, Cracker, Katakuri and Kaido and in none of those bouts had it managed to put any of those guys down upon it initial onslaught. G4 has all to prove, prove that it could actually take a solid fighter out for good in its first burst which it hasn't so far.

I mean these are manga facts.

Reactions: Like 7 | Dislike 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

maupp said:


> I mean these are manga facts.


Without context.

It is like saying, Zoro was KO by a stab from Nerfed Killer now imagine getting a hit from his punishers with a sonic blade, he would be ripped in two as that damaged Kaido.


That is at best disingenuous.

Kata was a level above G4 because of FS, Cracker has G4 level defense and was one shot with a G4 move.

DD was getting punched by culverins while Luffy has KKG and Kong Gatling in his arsenal and we are still debating Zoro based on him not using Asura btw.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Without context.
> 
> It is like saying, Zoro was KO by a stab from Nerfed Killer now imagine getting a hit from his punishers with sonic blade.
> 
> That is at best disingenuous.


He writes complete shit. No proof or context i would laugh it off with someone having pepe zoro killing kaido as a profile pic.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## maupp (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Nah. I don’t think Kaido’s whole entire body was inside it. The area near his head seemed to be the primary target. That’s the only place a big cut appears. And more than that I looked back at the page and you can see a section of Kaido’s body in the foreground outside of the winds (close to Zoro’s sword).
> 
> And nah, Luffy extending his arm and pulling himself away from the tornado would work as he’d be far enough away the winds wouldn’t reach him. It’s not like Zoro can control it after it’s been fired to chase after a target, he doesn’t have weather control like Kaido or Big Mom. It would just spin in place at the same spot the attack was unleashed.
> 
> Flight in G4 should especially work since he’d be actively resulting the pull of the wind with his propulsion.


So you're basically refusing to acknowledge that tastumaki tornado size is massive so you can sell this argument about Luffy stretching himself away from the area of impact. 

Did you see how big Kaido's tornados were? To overpower that Zoro would have needed to at least match them to a certain extent otherwise he wouldn't have been able to overpower Kaido. A small tornado isn't going to overcome a much bigger one, let alone a bunch of them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> He writes complete shit. No proof or context i would laugh it off with someone having pepe zoro killing kaido as a profile pic.


I told you, they always do this and mods accuse me of trolling.
The other day we were debating why blocking with swords is not a durability feat

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I told you, they always do this and mods cause me of trolling.


Ya it happens lol i agree but you just click tier specialist and move on.

Let him argue his perspective  we can get good rasita laughs.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Let him argue him perspective we can get good rasita laughs.


The thing is when you only do that, many of the readers leave the thread and never write but tell me I am disgusted.

So yeah I would want someone as in the Naruto arena to say, ok prove it so we can have a proper debate.

Again keep telling this, this is not the theory section, but the arena, arena values panels, and calculations not this crap.


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## xenos5 (Feb 19, 2021)

maupp said:


> So you're basically refusing to acknowledge that tastumaki tornado size is massive so you can sell this argument about Luffy stretching himself away from the area of impact.
> 
> Did you see how big Kaido's tornados were? To overpower that Zoro would have needed to at least match them to a certain extent otherwise he wouldn't have been able to overpower Kaido. A small tornado isn't going to overcome a much bigger one, let alone a bunch of them.


Who says Zoro overpowered them? Kaido getting hit could’ve caused them to dissipate on their own with him having lost focus and not controlling them at that point. They aren’t weather homies that automatically continue on their own Kaido was actively controlling them.

An enemy getting hit interrupting their attack is not the same as a direct clash, and a direct clash between tornadoes was not shown.

Reactions: Like 1


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## maupp (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> Who says Zoro overpowered them? Kaido getting hit could’ve caused them to dissipate on their own with him having lost focus and not controlling them at that point. They aren’t weather homies that automatically continue on their own Kaido was actively controlling them.
> 
> An enemy getting hit interrupting their attack is not the same as a direct clash, and a direct clash between tornadoes was not shown.


Come on now. For Zoro to hit Kaido in that instance he had to overpower him. Heck Oda even made sure to have Kaido mention that Zoro challenged his tornados with his own.

It was a counter attack against Kaido's own. If Zoro's tornado doesn't overpower Kaido's ones then he isn't coming anywhere near cutting him, it simply means his tastumaki fails and get swallowed up inside Kaido's own tornados.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> The thing is when you only do that, many of the readers leave the thread and never write but tell me I am disgusted.
> 
> So yeah I would want someone as on the Naruto arena to say, ok prove it so we can have a proper debate.



That is true i am not sure how NF works . I am from Narutobase forum so debate was pretty high rated there, People argued for days.

I would say let him argue , if he just spin the same old narrative then its useless


Right now the goal post has moved to  luffy's G4 credibility  and they think its nowhere near to  attack displayed by zoro. So its not worth debating these things clearly  G4 stomps those attack even kidd look surprised the cost luffy had to pay.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Right now the goal post has moved whether luffy's G4 credibility and they think its nowhere near to attack displayed by zoro. So its not worth debating these things vlesrly G4 stomps those attack even kidd look surprised the cost luffy had to pay.





This is why I said someone should just make that false as we have the panels for that.


All 4SN: what is that haki, what is that power.

Random zellot no Zoro has better COA and AP ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> ...
> 
> Hybrid mode was not because Zoro used a twister he did minimal damage to Kaido because of Enma.
> 
> ...


Kaido chose to go hybrid mode at a specific time in the fight. It was right after Zoro hit him. Arguing that it wasn't because of that attack is hard, seeing as he showed no sign of doing so beforehand. Kaido took lots of attack from Luffy, Killer, Kidd and Law, but still chose to remain in dragon form until Zoro cut him.

Kaido responded to Luffy's barrage with a Dragon Twister, which Zoro overpowered. Kaido responded to Zoro's Black Rope Dragon Twister with a Dragon Twister Demolition Breath and with going hybrid.

Zoro's CoA is enough to injure Kaido, while pre-Udon Luffy's was not. And seeing how Kaido responded much more seriously to Zoro's attack than everyone else's, it's most likely better than current Luffy's as well. Enma is part of Zoro's toolkit, just like the Gomu Gomu is part of Luffy's or the raid suit is part of Sanji's, so however much you think Zoro loses without Enma is irrelevant. Can you post a panel of when it's been stated that Luffy has the best CoA in Wano? 

Zoro landed one move, while Luffy went all out, used Kong Gatling and ran out of steam. That's makes the fact that Zoro pushed Kaido into hybrid mode even more impressive.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> This is why I said someone should just make that false as we have the panels for that.


They wouldnt thats why i said the debate got soloed. They want to spin it to tatsumaki attack was high tier than  current luffy's attack so far.

Of course if talk of level of threat it made sense he immediately  recognised oden's aura in the sword just like how he felt in scabbards.

Does it make Scabbard 's attack better than luffy ?  Now thats another question i pose to them.


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## maupp (Feb 19, 2021)

You know what you guys are doing with Zoro is equivalent to what would happen if people start denying Luffy's on panel feats with random stretching and absurdities. 

I've noticed this practice of pretending that Zoro's feats aren't as clear cut as they seem so people can twist them in whatever convenient take they want seem to be prevalent for some reasons. 

I've seen people argue that Kaido didn't dodge Zoro's attack and he instead just missed a single massive target right in front of him. Now I'm seeing this bit about Zoro's tornado not overpowering Kaido's own and instead Kaido's tornados simply just decided to vanish on their own and Zoro just happened to hit his then unchallenged. 

This is just proof of the level and height of Zoro's feats that people(who chose to believe Zoro isn't as powerful as he's actually being protrayed by Oda) resort to twisting them and trying to water them down instead of simply accepting them for what they truly are and intended to be.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> That is true i am not sure how NF works . I am from Narutobase forum so debate was pretty high rated there, People argued for days.
> 
> I would say let him argue , if he just spin the same old narrative then its useless
> 
> ...


If Kidd was surprised that Luffy had to pay such high of a cost, that indicates that he didn't think the mode was all that impressive. If it was really impressive, paying a high cost wouldn't be all that strange.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

And here it comes we hate Zoro and we downplay him by not putting him above Luffy ...

Crying wolf again.


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Dunno said:


> If Kidd was surprised that Luffy had to pay such high of a cost, that indicates that he didn't think the mode was all that impressive. If it was really impressive, paying a high cost wouldn't be all that strange.


But it means those attacks are working. Kaido is feeling the damage .

Also i would point G4 time limit is pretty bad , i mean it certainly dehypes MC in or other way.


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## Beast (Feb 19, 2021)

fenaker said:


> so nothing u provided nice try genius , next time tell Kaido to not pant because of enma and to not move his head


They send one weirdo every other debate.

Anyway... I think @xenos5 ended this debate already, it’s quite sad seeing people in denial but good thread nonetheless, it will count as a lesson for the future users of this forum.

Zoros only advantage against Pre udon luffy is AoE and even that’s a stretch given luffy still has KKG, that finishes the attack no matter what.

When debating about SHs vs SHs, it’s a fact that Luffy is the best in the sky and land.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> But it means those attacks are working. Kaido is feeling the damage .
> 
> Also i would point G4 time limit is pretty bad , i mean it certainly dehypes MC in or other way.


Kaido feeling when Zoro Cut him and countered his tornado attack. Zoro ripped through one of Kaido attack and still managed to hurt Kaido. While Luffy turned into a liability that Zoro has to waste energy taking care of.

Reactions: Like 3


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## xenos5 (Feb 19, 2021)

maupp said:


> Come on now. For Zoro to hit Kaido in that instance he had to overpower him. Heck Oda even made sure to have Kaido mention that Zoro challenged his tornados with his own.
> 
> It was a counter attack against Kaido's own. If Zoro's tornado doesn't overpower Kaido's ones then he isn't coming anywhere near cutting him, it simply means his tastumaki fails and get swallowed up inside Kaido's own tornados.


Kaido’s placement was between the tornadoes. He wasn’t inside one of his own tornadoes. So it was possible to hit him without needing to go through them and that’s just what Zoro did.

If Oda wanted to show tornadoes clashing I’m sure that’s what he would’ve drawn. Kaido could just consider Zoro using a tornado against him at all after he just made his own as a challenge because he sees it as Zoro copying him. Nothing particular about that wording that implies they clashed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Beast said:


> They send one weirdo every other debate.
> 
> Anyway... I think @xenos5 ended this debate already, it’s quite sad seeing people in denial but good thread nonetheless, it will count as a lesson for the future users of this forum.
> 
> Zoros only advantage against Pre udon luffy is AoE and the, that’s a stretch given luffy still has KKG, that finishes the attack no matter what.


Ya xenos is pretty good debator. I think ren did enough in this debate . 

We are only back to measuring whether tatsumaki  superior or not to luffy's G4 .

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Kaido feeling when Zoro Cut him and countered his tornado attack. Zoro ripped through one of Kaido attack and still managed to hurt Kaido. While Luffy turned into a liability that Zoro has to waste energy taking care of.


Not gonna  hide ya he felt level of  threat from the sword but kaido never said it damaged him internally.

You are kind of underrating luffy here. I accept what @Dunno said about the threat level he felt about enma after the cut.

Nowhere it concludes Zoro's cut is superior to Luffy's G4.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## maupp (Feb 19, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> *Kaido’s placement was between the tornadoes. He wasn’t inside one of his own tornadoes. So it was possible to hit him without needing to go through them and that’s just what Zoro did.*
> 
> If Oda wanted to show tornadoes clashing I’m sure that’s what he would’ve drawn. Kaido could just consider Zoro using a tornado against him at all after he just made his own as a challenge because he sees it as Zoro copying him. Nothing particular about that wording that implies they clashed.


*"To think you'd challenge my tornado with you own"*. 

That's Oda laying it down pretty thick for those who missed it. He pretty much telling people that Zoro's tornado challenged Kaido's. 

You argument would have had any ground if Oda didn't have Kaido say that Zoro challenged his tornados.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## maupp (Feb 19, 2021)

@xenos5 you've fought me on this point so much that I went to double check the chapter again and 2 things I need to make clear.

1. First of all Kaido is fully engulfed by the tornado upon closer look once again. After you mentioned that it was only Kaido's upper body in the tornado I went ahead and double checked and the panel shows the whole of Kaido inside the tornado. There is no visible part outside of it. The tornado is simply massive.

2. Kaido actually said *"To think you'd counter my twister(tornado) with your own" *which makes it even more clear that Zoro's twister directly challenged Kaido's ones and overpowered them.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Ya xenos is pretty good debator. I think ren did enough in this debate .
> 
> We are only back to measuring whether tatsumaki  superior or not to luffy's G4 .


Well, that’s what happens around here... they tend to jump from one point to the other to try to prove whatever it is they are trying to argue.

whether they try to downplay/ over exaggerate/ twist and turn facts/ just plain old fanfic, there isn’t much ZKK club wouldn’t do to have Zoro come out on top in any thread... and I mean any thread.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 19, 2021)

Beast said:


> Well, that’s what happens around here... they tend to jump from one point to the other to try to prove whatever it is they are trying to argue.
> 
> whether they try to downplay/ over exaggerate/ twist and turn facts/ just plain old fanfic, there isn’t much ZKK club wouldn’t do to have Zoro come out on top in any thread... and I mean any thread.


Seems like your projecting what you do on to others.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jo Ndule (Feb 19, 2021)

So nobody has posted proof that kaido did dodge? 

Anyway, How is Zoro beating pre udon Luffy again? 
This dude needs a booster to reach the sky, can't tag carrot or marco coz his reaction and attack speed is average

Pee udon Luffy beats Zoro high diff, nothing changes

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2021)

Beast said:


> Well, that’s what happens around here... they tend to jump from one point to the other to try to prove whatever it is they are trying to argue.
> 
> whether they try to downplay/ over exaggerate/ twist and turn facts/ just plain old fanfic, there isn’t much ZKK club wouldn’t do to have Zoro come out on top in any thread... and I mean *any thread.*


Nah, not this one for example: 

That one we'll leave alone.


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Beast said:


> Well, that’s what happens around here... they tend to jump from one point to the other to try to prove whatever it is they are trying to argue.
> 
> whether they try to downplay/ over exaggerate/ twist and turn facts/ just plain old fanfic, there isn’t much ZKK club wouldn’t do to have Zoro come out on top in any thread... and I mean any thread.


If ZKK happens zoro will cut weaker version of kaido . So i am not really bothered to much about it.
People get overlapped in zkk  topic and the  fandom try to take the narrative to show Zoro is way too superior and thats how other fandom reacts lol. We can never have rational debate thats how it rolls.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Beast (Feb 19, 2021)

maupp said:


> Which is the same. You don't mean to tell me you're missing what that statement infers.
> 
> Kaido said that because Zoro indeed did dare *challenge* him to a dragon twister aka twister vs twister, that's the challenge Zoro dared to do.
> 
> Try any translation out there and they all lead to the same end. Zoro's twister went up against Kaido's twister.




Bottom left you can see the tail of Kaidous dragon form. The top bit is just literally the top bit.
And as you see clearly as Zoro jumps at him... there is no other tornado next to Kaidou, he hit Kidd and Killer with his one as they tried to jump him and tries to swallow Luffy but spits him back out as Zoro cuts him.

@Dunno
Are you sure?
If I do really check... I’m sure there will something Zoro related there 

@Dark Shadow 
Lol, I personally like the chaos... I like the view of toxic power level debates.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Beast (Feb 19, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Seems like your projecting what you do on to others.


You’re*


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Beast said:


> Bottom left you can see the tail of Kaidous dragon form. The top bit is just literally the top bit.
> And as you see clearly as Zoro jumps at him... there is no other tornado next to Kaidou, he hit Kidd and Killer with his one as they tried to jump him and tries to swallow Luffy but spits him back out as Zoro cuts him.
> 
> @Dunno
> ...


Welcome to chaotic show. We can invite our buddy  @fenaker here.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## xenos5 (Feb 19, 2021)

maupp said:


> @xenos5 you've fought me on this point so much that I went to double check the chapter again and 2 things I need to make clear.
> 
> 1. First of all Kaido is fully engulfed by the tornado upon closer look once again. After you mentioned that it was only Kaido's upper body in the tornado and double check and the panel shows the whole of Kaido inside the tornado. There is no visible part outside of it. The tornado is simply massive.
> 
> 2. Kaido actually said *"To think you'd counter my twister(tornado) with your own" *which makes it even more clear that Zoro's twister directly challenged Kaido's ones and overpowered them.



Look at the bottom left corner of the panel. That’s clearly a section of Kaido’s body not inside the tornado. It’s closer to Zoro’s location after finishing the attack.



maupp said:


> Which is the same. You don't mean to tell me you're missing what that statement infers.
> 
> Kaido said that because Zoro indeed did dare *challenge* him to a dragon twister aka twister vs twister, that's the challenge Zoro dared to do.
> 
> Try any translation out there and they all lead to the same end. Zoro's twister went up against Kaido's twister.



If taking a random example in a ballroom dancing competition one couple does the tango for the judges, and then the next couple tries the same dance to impress the judges the first couple saying to the second couple  “you dare challenge us to a tango?!” would make sense.

Or if you take objection to that example. In a boxing match a guy who’s known for using the right cross is throws out that punch, and a second guy throws his own right cross in response and lands it (but doesn’t hit the other guy’s fist in the process so no clashing involved). The first guy saying to the second guy “you dare challenge me to a right cross?!” would also make sense.

So yeah, the official translation does actually change things. I’m not missing anything. You’re just choosing to interpret the statement to suit your argument in light of no clashing tornadoes actually being shown.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## maupp (Feb 19, 2021)

This is hopeless. I'm out.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

This reminds me of when I had that 100 pages debate with Cinera and the rest of that squad or was that the "official WG translator" ... can't remember I know Light also was there.

Now I am enjoying Pissing off Cinera regarding Urek >> his favorite.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> This reminds me of when I had that 100 pages debate with Cinera and the rest of that squad or was the official WG translator ... can't remember I know Light also was there.
> 
> Now I am enjoying Pissing off Cinera regarding Urek >> his favorite.


Urek or crescent moon of the Khun family... damn.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 19, 2021)

maupp said:


> This is hopeless. I'm out.


I had fun (at least more than trying to debate with that stonewalling Shunsuiju guy in the past)
. Let’s debate again sometime


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2021)

Beast said:


> You’re*


you’re*


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 19, 2021)

So now Zoro didn't overpower Kaido's Tornadoes when Kaido stated that he challenged him..and the Tornadoes disappeared just after Zoros attack...you have kaido using a stronger version of his Tatsumaki in response of Zoro's challenge

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Feb 19, 2021)

Dunno said:


> you’re*


You are*


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 19, 2021)

Beast said:


> You’re*


Glad you didn't deny it.


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## Dunno (Feb 19, 2021)

Beast said:


> You are*


you are*

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> This reminds me of when I had that 100 pages debate with Cinera and the rest of that squad or was that the "official WG translator" ... can't remember I know Light also was there.
> 
> Now I am enjoying Pissing off Cinera regarding Urek >> his favorite.


Damn, reminiscing on getting bodied for 100 pages huh? Feel bad for you

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Beast (Feb 19, 2021)

Dunno said:


> you are*


U r*


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Damn, reminiscing on getting bodied for 100 pages huh? Feel bad for you


WG tends to body people like you did 2 days ago with me and that is all.

I think you would be more useful in WG, Also Cinera goes there to wank Zoro, I can show you Discord comments about that.
He enjoys doing that wanking he even admits that, I presume you guys believe his wank at face value.

Also if they need a personal translator multiple times discredited for translating WSS BS in favor of well WSS, I had to bring my own friend for that to happen Boby,  and all the known Z squad to body me for 100 pages then look again at the definition of that term.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> So now Zoro didn't overpower Kaido's Tornadoes when Kaido stated that he challenged him..and the Tornadoes disappeared just after Zoros attack...you have kaido using a stronger version of his Tatsumaki in response of Zoro's challenge



Pretty sure it was overpowered else Kaido wouldn't release a more powerful version with wind scythes in the next panel. Let's not act like it was special considering Killer is capable of deflection those scythes so it's out of question that Zoro couldn't.

Anyway this is a waste of time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Pretty sure it was overpowered else Kaido wouldn't release a more powerful version with wind scythes in the next panel. Let's not act like it was special considering Killer is capable of deflection those scythes so it's out of question that Zoro couldn't.
> 
> Anyway this is a waste of time.


Yeah that's what im saying lol

It wouldn't make sense for Kaido to use an even stronger version of Tatsumaki if Zoro didn't overpower his attack before that

Agreed

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Anyway this is a waste of time.


Pretty much, next to Zoro having durability from his swords.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Pretty much, next to Zoro having durability from his swords.



Still hurt you couldn't disprove that?

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> WG tends to body people like you did 2 days ago with me and that is all.
> 
> I think you would be more useful in WG, Also Cinera goes there to wank Zoro, I can show you Discord comments about that.
> He enjoys doing that wanking he even admits that, I presume you guys believe his wank at face value.
> ...


I only believe arguments that make senseand that are supported by panels/rational thinking. You seem to be lacking in both.

I don't even know what your talking about? WSS translation. Lol the hell? Its in the manga

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Still hurt you couldn't disprove that?


Nope as I know now Luffy's durability is his KKG Gatling attack + G2 and max COA 3.0 

Disproving that the earth is flat is so 1600 or so.


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> I don't even know what your talking about?


You don't need to ... that is for those that knew the inception of WG or before that the old OJ.


Jujubatman12 said:


> that are supported by panels/rational thinking.


Yep, I know, I saw you.

Your contributions to this thread are: ad hominems and personal attacks.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Nope as I know now Luffy's durability is his KKG Gatling attack + G2 and max COA 3.0
> 
> Disproving that the earth is flat is so 1600 or so.






Can't disprove swords are part of his arsenal?

Iam glad you give up, I have plenty of panels like those but I decided to use the very first shown from chapter 3 in the story to expose the bias against it from like more than 2 decades ago.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Can't disprove swords are part of his arsenal?
> 
> Iam glad you give up, I have plenty of panels like those but I decided to use the very first shown from chapter 3 in the story to expose the bias against it from like more than 2 decades ago.




This just disproved your theory.

It will be the same with heat not fire.

The same with cold.

Luffy's durability is nigh-infinite because he is night immune to that element. While the sword a conductor with low resistance to that element will be fine and Zoro's body with high resistance will be damaged to the point he gets Koaed.

Explosions that will not be cut will have the same effect Zoro gets damaged, swords will not.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> This just disproved your theory.
> 
> It will be the same with heat not fire.
> 
> ...



Now I know you're desperate resorting to conductivity of metal

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Now I know you're desperate resorting to conductivity of metal


You said that the durability is the same so elemental resistance should be identical.


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> You don't need to ... that is for those that knew the inception of WG or before that the old OJ.
> 
> Yep, I know, I saw you.
> 
> Your contributions to this thread are: ad hominems and personal attacks.


You saw me how? Please link


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> You said that the durability is the same so elemental resistance should be identical.



Fireproof suit not fireproof



 so much for the elemental resistance

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Fireproof suit not fireproof
> 
> 
> 
> so much for the elemental resistance


Fireproof does not mean what you think.

It has a limit on the kinetic energy. I can not stand a solar flare for example with a fire prof suite.

Only Luffy in OP seems to be the perfect insulator because his element is magical by nature. This is why 500M did nothing to him while Enel was melting gold and shapeshifting it.

But nice deflection.  As She was not burned while in Zoro's case the swords are fine while his body is burned and Koed meaning one has different resistance that affects its durability.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Fireproof does not mean what you think.
> 
> It has a limit on the kinetic energy. I can not stand a solar flare for example.
> 
> ...



Fireproof suits protect against both fire and heat. Read it up before you stonewall me with your wiki copies.

And if you want to be more accurate to compare electricity, there you go:

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Fireproof suits


If you think that this will let you get close to a star you are mistaken and the start is made out of  "fire".

There are three basic types of these aluminized suits:


Approach suit—used for work in the general area of high temperatures such as  and smelting facilities. These usually provide ambient heat protection up to ≈200 °F (93 °C).
Proximity suit—used for aircraft rescue and fire fighting (AR-FF) and, in more heavily insulated versions, for kiln work requiring entry into the heated kiln. The former provide ambient heat protection up to ≈500 °F (260 °C), while the latter provide much higher degrees of protection, sometimes up to ≈2,000 °F (1,093 °C).
Entry suit—used for entry into extreme heat and situations requiring protection from total flame engulfment. Most commonly made of  or  and not aluminized. These provide ambient protection up to ≈2,000 °F (1,093 °C)) for short duration, and prolonged  protection up to ≈1,500 °F (816 °C).

That is all from me as that will become too technical for a manga.

And fire can reach more than 1093C btw.


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> If you think that this will let you get close to a star you are mistaken and the start is made out of  "fire".
> 
> There are three basic types of these aluminized suits:
> 
> ...


What the hell are yall arguing?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> What the hell are yall arguing?



He is just copying some shit from the www and thinks he made an argument.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

... LOL saying  Fireproff means fireproof aka perfect insulator to fire, then when shown that well those suits have a limit.

That is not an argument.

By the same man that said blocking with a sword means you have the durability of that sword.  

Kinjin again take notes regarding trolling.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> ... LOL saying  Fireproff means fireproof aka perfect insulator to fire, then when shown that well those suits have a limit.
> 
> That is not an argument.
> 
> ...



Starting to talk off-topic of RS vs Swords defense in a completely different thread, then calls for a mod "take notes of trolling"



Hilarious.

Anyway Luffy loses here as I probably said somewhere between page 1 and 21 already. Luffy without advanced armament isn't dealing enough damage to take down Zoro, who easily tanks thunder techniques named after god's from a character that trashed said Luffy at Udon while being restricted with no homies.

While Zoro just needs to land 1-2 good attacks to take that version of Luffy down or wear him massively down, who couldn't even tank a  TB, an attack base Luffy on the roof was capable of enduring.

There is a massive difference between pre Udon and current Luffy. Zoro performs way closer to current Luffy than Pre Udon.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | GODA 1


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## convict (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> I checked what you said is true. Warned you @Ren.  he is looping the discussion. Its not worth it he will come up with another spin.
> 
> I am waiting for wiggins , convict to come back what they will give their response.



What specifically do you want me to respond to? I’ve browsed the past few pages and I’ll be honest, mostly nonsense but if there is any specific point you want me to counter let me know.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

convict said:


> What specifically do you want me to respond to? I’ve browsed the past few pages and I’ll be honest, mostly nonsense but if there is any specific point you want me to counter let me know.



Probably wants to hear something about the black rope dragontwister that powered through Kaido's tornado and slashed him. Otherwise there is no point to bring up things that been brought up a dozens of times already.


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Oh brother ...

Now, Zoro can 2 shot Luffy based on him not landing anything bar one move, and Luffy even with KKG is doing negligible damage to Zoro.

@Beast this is Zoro's blocking with swords all over again.



TheWiggian said:


> Luffy without advanced armament isn't dealing enough damage to take down Zoro





TheWiggian said:


> While Zoro just needs to *land 1-*2 good attacks to take that version of Luffy



Remember we are Zoro haters.

I am out.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kroczilla (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Starting to talk off-topic of RS vs Swords defense in a completely different thread, then calls for a mod "take notes of trolling"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Christ, the arguments here are all kinds of awful

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ren. (Feb 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Christ, the arguments here are all kinds of awful


Now Zoro can take KKG with minimal damage  

And somehow Zoro after missing a freaking dragon from close range will 2 shots FS Snakeman + Gepo

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Hero Link (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Luffy without advanced armament isn't dealing enough damage to take down Zoro, who easily tanks thunder techniques named after god's from a character that trashed said Luffy at Udon while being restricted with no homies.



That's a terrible take.

So you are suggesting that Bound Man cannot deal significant damage to Zoro based on the aforementioned attacks which Zoro endured so far? You do realise that Killer managed to endure said thunder techniques as well? So Bound Man wouldn't deal significant damage on Killer as well?

What's about KKG; do you think Zoro can take it? If so, how many KKGs would he take before Zoro gets knocked out?



TheWiggian said:


> While Zoro just needs to land 1-2 good attacks to take that version of Luffy down or wear him massively down, who couldn't even tank a TB, an attack base Luffy on the roof was capable of enduring.



While Luffy is an endurance beast by himself (ie. Doffy's Flap Threads literally impaled him several times and he still endured said amount of damage despite being injured prior to that attack) Zoro *has to land those two successful hits *which is not easy at all, considering that Bound Man/Snake Man is extremely fast and mobile as well, on top of FS which further complements his reactions.
That sure ain't an easy task at all, let alone defeating him with two good cuts.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Hero Link said:


> That's a terrible take.



Why?



Hero Link said:


> So you are suggesting that Bound Man cannot deal significant damage to Zoro based on the aforementioned attacks which Zoro endured so far? You do realise that Killer managed to endure said thunder techniques as well? So Bound Man wouldn't deal significant damage on Killer as well?



Didn't suggest Boundman cannot deal significant damage. I said it won't be enough to take down someone like Zoro who literally can tank attacks from a Yonko and Boundman never took down an opponent before Luffy's haki and stamina ran empty.



Hero Link said:


> What's about KKG; do you think Zoro can take it? If so, how many KKGs would he take before Zoro gets knocked out?



Have Luffy shown the ability to spam KKG? There's a high possibility he will run out of gas before even bringing it out as seen at Dressrosa.



Hero Link said:


> While Luffy is an endurance beast by himself (ie. Doffy's Flap Threads literally impaled him several times and he still endured said amount of damage despite being injured prior to that attack) Zoro *has to land those two successful hits *which is not easy at all, considering that Bound Man/Snake Man is extremely fast and mobile as well, on top of FS which further complements his reactions.



The portrayal of FS and his reactions with it is very shaky. Even someone like Kakakuri can lose focus as we have seen. Luffy is way worse with it in terms of consistency and experience.   

Even current boundman Luffy need Law and Zoro to cover him from slower opponents than Katakuri.



Hero Link said:


> That sure ain't an easy task at all, let alone defeating him with two good cuts.



Never claimed it would be easy to tag him but suggesting Zoro isn't connecting at least a couple of decent  slashes which are superior to any lethal attack Katakuri has in his arsenal, considering he can slash through the most durable Yonko currently, a privilege Katakuri doesn't have.

You are free to believe otherwise though.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2


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## Mercurial (Feb 19, 2021)

Current Zoro's mid tier moves can impress and frighten a Yonko ("Kaido! You have to dodge!"). A Yonko who is also known especially for his endurance/durability.

But he cannot seriously damage a Rufy who was one shotted and deemed as weak by same Yonko.
Not even if he used high end moves instead of mid end ones.

Current Zoro can tank a serious named attack from Yonko, without suffering any damage, and coming back in to the fight a couple of panels after being stick by said attack.

But he cannot tank attacks from a Rufy who was one shotted and deemed as weak by same Yonko.

Current Zoro can overpower (not with a peculiare move which has an advantage, no, with simple greater power) a named move from a Yonko. Even wounding him in the process, making him bleed both from his scales and from his internals. That with a mid tier move (if not a low end one, as he previously used that move on fodders, mostly).

But he cannot trade blows with a Rufy who was one shotted and deemed as weak by same Yonko.

That's good and interesting logic.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2 | Winner 2


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## Kroczilla (Feb 19, 2021)

Mercurial said:


> Current Zoro's mid tier moves can impress and frighten a Yonko ("Kaido! You have to dodge!"). A Yonko who is also known especially for his


> Implying anyone ever argued that zoro doesn't have the AP advantage
> Unwittingly  proving the point being made given that a giant tanky target like Kaido casually avoided said attack

Final grade: C -




Mercurial said:


> Current Zoro can tank a serious named attack from Yonko, without suffering any damage, and coming back in to the fight a couple of panels after being stick by said attack.
> 
> But he cannot tank attacks from a Rufy who was one shotted and deemed as weak by same Yonko.



>Somehow trying to draw a comparison between Indra and Thunder Bagua

> Implies that Killer is more durable than pre-udon Luffy

> Implies that zoro can outright tank attacks from G4 Luffy

Final grade: D







Mercurial said:


> But he cannot trade blows with a Rufy who was one shotted and deemed as weak by same Yonko.



> Implies that there will be a "trading of blows"

> Thinks zoro struggling to land hits on a giant dragon means he can land hits on FS Luffy

> Still desperate to draw comparisons between Thunder Bagua and Indra

Final Grade: F

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mercurial (Feb 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> > Implying anyone ever argued that zoro doesn't have the AP advantage
> > Unwittingly  proving the point being made given that a giant tanky target like Kaido casually avoided said attack
> 
> Final grade: C -
> ...


You must be suffering a lot. That salt may be damaging your ass, therefore generating the butthurt. 

A "giant dragon" already tagged Rufy with Boro Breath and Big Mom was going to hit him with Prometheus as well, I did not see him using FS to evade. Zoro's sword moves are faster than that, as per canon. 
Also, no one said that Zoro would tank G4 like nothing. Just that he can trade blows, he can parry and what he cannot trade neither parry (most likely a combo of FS + Snakeman) he can endure.

Now let's have it better.

Zoro would feel damage by Boundman/Snakeman, but he can trade blows with his own moves (if back in Whiskey Peak a Onigiri was equal to a Bazooka, then now a Rengoku Onigiri can trade with a Kong Gun, and so on). He can parry with CoA coated swords, backed by his physical strength amped by Nigori Zake. And what he cannot parry neither trade, he can surely endure.

Also, if Rufy has max speed with Snakeman, Zoro has Shi Shishi Sonson for a blitz which is so dangerous. FS allows Rufy to put trouble on Zoro but at the same time Rufy also can't spam Gear 4 and without that Zoro is much more dominant, especially in raw power. Zoro can tank what he has to tank and is much more lethal, honestly, he seems deadlier than Current Rufy by the mere showing of low/mid end moves.

Simply out, Current Zoro has better general portrayal and feats than Rufy. Zoro's always been close to Rufy so that's not surprising.
Current Rufy > Current Zoro > Post Katakuri Rufy > Pre Enma Zoro. Easy.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Kroczilla (Feb 19, 2021)

Mercurial said:


> You must be suffering a lot. That salt may be damaging your ass, therefore generating the butthurt





Pretty creative tbh. 

A solid 'B+' in my book.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Pretty creative tbh.
> 
> A solid 'B+' in my book.


"He laughed"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Moldrew (Feb 19, 2021)

I’m curious; what actually changed for Luffy pre and post Udon aside from advanced BH that makes such a difference here? He never needed it to fight Zoro in the first place.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Winner 2


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## Mercurial (Feb 19, 2021)

Moldrew said:


> I’m curious; what actually changed for Luffy pre and post Udon aside from advanced BH that makes such a difference here? He never needed it to fight Zoro in the first place.


Ever heard of shonen? Where main characters become stronger for the lulz and everything scales on a upper level accordingly?

Also, Rufy clearly did some physical training in Udon, together with Kidd. Plus the Ryo training should have improved everything about his CoA. And CoA is basically power level, nowadays.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Moldrew said:


> I’m curious; what actually changed for Luffy pre and post Udon aside from advanced BH that makes such a difference here? He never needed it to fight Zoro in the first place.



1 version gets one shot in his strongest form by the same attack the other version can dodge and endure in base.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Moldrew (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> 1 version gets one shot in his strongest form by the same attack the other version can dodge and endure in base.


The other version can dodge because he’s in mental state that actually allows him to use future sight.

He’s not enduring the same blow either because it only grazed him because he actually dodged with future sight this time.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Moldrew said:


> The other version can dodge because he’s in mental state that actually allows him to use future sight.
> 
> He’s not enduring the same blow either because it only grazed him because he actually dodged with future sight this time.



The difference between G4 defense and base is massive. 1 couldn't be penetrated by doffy at all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Feb 19, 2021)

There is a large gulf between getting grazed from a baseball hit (in which case you are pretty much fine with the worst case being minor lacerations) and taking a direct hit (in which case, you are very likely to break some bones or go into a coma).

Basically, you can't compare a graze from Thunder Bagua to a direct hit.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kroczilla (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> The difference between G4 defense and base is massive. 1 couldn't be penetrated by doffy at all.


It was a graze. A graze is laughable far off from a direct hit.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> It was a graze. A graze is laughable far off from a direct hit.



Still had him on the knees not able to react to a slow Big Mom in the next panel despite his future sight and right mindset.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Still had him on the knees not able to react to a slow Big Mom in the next panel despite his future sight and right mindset.


Still doesn't change the fact that it was just a graze. Nothing suggests Pre Udon Luffy would have been seriously hurt by a graze.


Also you've got to be kidding if you think Luffy "couldn't react" to big mom. His focus was entirely on Kaido. It's more a case of her catching him off guard while his mind was on another subject. And even then, his feats in the past subject that he could still have dodged even from that range.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mercurial (Feb 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> There is a large gulf between getting grazed from a baseball hit (in which case you are pretty much fine with the worst case being minor lacerations) and taking a direct hit (in which case, you are very likely to break some bones or go into a coma).
> 
> Basically, you can't compare a graze from Thunder Bagua to a direct hit.


There's also a large gulf between Gear 4 durability (no sells Doflamingo's attacks) and Base durability.

Also, the hit Rufy partially received was still strong enough to stun him so much that he was defenseless against subsequent attacks from Big Mom and later from Kaido again.

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that it was just a graze. Nothing suggests Pre Udon Luffy would have been seriously hurt by a graze.
> 
> 
> Also you've got to be kidding if you think Luffy "couldn't react" to big mom. His focus was entirely on Kaido. It's more a case of her catching him off guard while his mind was on another subject. And even then, his feats in the past subject that he could still have dodged even from that range.



So future sight is not as invincible as you guys claim. A fucking Yonko is coming for him and he is neither seeing nor feeling it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Mercurial (Feb 19, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> So future sight is not as invincible as you guys claim. A fucking Yonko is coming for him and he is neither seeing nor feeling it.


It depends. Remember who are you talking with. Sanji-Flat Earth Society members. In a thread regarding Zoro.
If the thread was something like G4 restricted Rufy vs Sanji, you can bet they would "magically" and "casually" say that FS is inconsistent and almost unrelevant.

After all, they are the same people who claim that Zoro's current feats and portrayal are only due to Enma (as if it is not a weapon that he needed to train to master the usage). While conveniently ignore that RS is the only reason for why Sanji still has at least some relevance concernono strength; without that he would literally be left in the dust by every worth character.

Masters of double standards.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## convict (Feb 19, 2021)

Moldrew said:


> I’m curious; what actually changed for Luffy pre and post Udon aside from advanced BH that makes such a difference here? He never needed it to fight Zoro in the first place.



Luffy didn’t train just his Haki but his overall physical strength as well fighting/lifting in seastone so much

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Mercurial said:


> It depends. Remember who are you talking with. Sanji-Flat Earth Society members. In a thread regarding Zoro.
> If the thread was something like G4 restricted Rufy vs Sanji, you can bet they would "magically" and "casually" say that FS is inconsistent and almost unrelevant.
> 
> After all, they are the same people who claim that Zoro's current feats and portrayal are only due to Enma (as if it is not a weapon that he needed to train to master the usage). While conveniently ignore that RS is the only reason for why Sanji still has at least some relevance concernono strength; without that he would literally be left in the dust by every worth character.
> ...



I mean if we look at this:



The invicible future sight and speed Luffy possesses could not only not save him from Big Mom's next attack (where Zoro had to step in to cover his captain), even Kaido's follow up (who he was focussed on)


			
				Kroczilla said:
			
		

> His focus was entirely on Kaido.


he could "NOT" react to too and Law was needed to shamble him into safety.

And don't forget those are "slooooow" opponents, nowhere close to Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Beast (Feb 19, 2021)

convict said:


> Luffy didn’t train just his Haki but his overall physical strength as well fighting/lifting in seastone so much


I thought that was just gag between him and Kidd... now Luffys made gains off lifting rocks.

Reactions: Like 2


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## convict (Feb 19, 2021)

Beast said:


> I thought that was just gag between him and Kidd... now Luffys made gains off lifting rocks.


Lifting giant rocks is no small feat when you are a fruit user in seastone cuffs.

Reactions: Like 1 | GODA 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Ruffy gets one shotted by Woro

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Moldrew (Feb 19, 2021)

Mercurial said:


> It depends. Remember who are you talking with. Sanji-Flat Earth Society members. In a thread regarding Zoro.
> If the thread was something like G4 restricted Rufy vs Sanji, you can bet they would "magically" and "casually" say that FS is inconsistent and almost unrelevant.
> 
> After all, they are the same people who claim that Zoro's current feats and portrayal are only due to Enma (as if it is not a weapon that he needed to train to master the usage). While conveniently ignore that RS is the only reason for why Sanji still has at least some relevance concernono strength; without that he would literally be left in the dust by every worth character.
> ...


Off-topic and smells like salt

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 19, 2021)

Mercurial said:


> It depends. Remember who are you talking with. Sanji-Flat Earth Society members. In a thread regarding Zoro.
> If the thread was something like G4 restricted Rufy vs Sanji, you can bet they would "magically" and "casually" say that FS is inconsistent and almost unrelevant.
> 
> After all, they are the same people who claim that Zoro's current feats and portrayal are only due to Enma (as if it is not a weapon that he needed to train to master the usage). While conveniently ignore that RS is the only reason for why Sanji still has at least some relevance concernono strength; without that he would literally be left in the dust by every worth character.
> ...


Oh look the genius is here calling users flat earthers  .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 19, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Oh look the genius is here calling users flat earthers  .



I honestly would love to live on a flat earth but physics are not allowing me to

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## MO (Feb 19, 2021)

Luffy stomps Zoro. Pre, post, doesn't matter. Zoro doesn't stand a chance either way.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 3 | Tier Specialist 5


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 19, 2021)

MO said:


> Luffy stomps Zoro. Pre, post, doesn't matter. Zoro doesn't stand a chance either way.


Zoro stomps Luffy. Pre, post, doesn't matter. Luffy doesn't stand a chance either way.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## MO (Feb 19, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Zoro stomps Luffy. Pre, post, doesn't matter. Luffy doesn't stand a chance either way.


you're entitled to your wrong opinion.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Ren. (Feb 20, 2021)

MO said:


> Luffy stomps Zoro. Pre, post, doesn't matter. Zoro doesn't stand a chance either way.


Such consistency from the 6 dudes that have rated you.

If they say and they said Zoro stomps Luffy that is ok.

O wait:



ice demon slayer said:


> Zoro stomps Luffy.


In your fan fiction world where we don't have access to panels.

Enjoy this sin on WG.



Dark Shadow said:


> Oh look the genius is here calling users flat earthers .


The same people that deduce Zoro's durability from blocking ... and I am off-topic if I don't agree with that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 20, 2021)

32 votes for zoro i hope OP  open the vote reveals , I  wants to see who are those gallant knight who has Zoro > Luffy 



MO said:


> you're entitled to your wrong opinion.


WG forum people are taught by Ha001 and his bois  cant help they are so immersed in the lies .



Ren. said:


> Such consistency from the 6 dudes that have rated you.
> 
> If they say and they said Zoro stomps Luffy that is ok.
> 
> ...


Ya  dont take him serious , he is sanji  hater i am used to hate . I say let them bring it on .

Reactions: Like 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 20, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> i hope OP open the vote reveals


i hope he does too, i cant believe people chose Luffy

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 20, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> i hope he does too, i cant believe people chose Luffy


Yes it cowardly to hide votes .

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Ren. (Feb 20, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Ha001


Ooo another one from the past.
In the first 3 months, I was top 3 in reaction scores there.


Dark Shadow said:


> Yes it cowardly to hide votes .


This is why I open votes.

The votes will be way lower for Zoro.

The OP knows it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 20, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Ooo another one from the past.
> In the first 3 months, I was top 3 in reaction scores there.
> 
> This is why I open votes.
> ...


WG forum users have Zoro > luffy narrative , they  lie those narrative in that place  and considering they wont be allowed to do that here they are cowards . I like Cinera in those bunch of gang  he is at least realistic in portraying Zoro .

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ren. (Feb 20, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> WG forum users have Zoro > luffy narrative , they  lie those narrative in that place  and considering they wont be allowed to do that here they are cowards who wont join other forums . I like Cinera in those bunch of gang  he is at least realistic in portraying Zoro .


The  OP is one of them, same name from OJ and WG, I know as most of OJ people were invited by me and Soca in 2019, except the Z boys that came for what you just said.

@Cinera  is here to discuss TOG and is one of the best thread makers in the TOG section.

*Spoiler*: __ 




 LOL

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 20, 2021)

Ren. said:


> The  OP is one of them, same name from OJ and WG, I know as most of OJ people were invited by me and Soca in 2019, except the Z boys that came for what you just said.
> 
> @Cinera  is here to discuss TOG and is one of the best thread makers in the TOG section.
> LOL



I hope to see him in the debate

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Ren. (Feb 20, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> I hope to see him in the debate


Well, I asked him several times.

I would start debating him seriously but I don't think he wants.


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## Kingslayer (Feb 20, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Well, I asked him several times.
> 
> I would start debating him seriously but I don't think he wants.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 20, 2021)

How do you open votes ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 20, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> 32 votes for zoro i hope OP  open the vote reveals , I  wants to see who are those gallant knight who has Zoro > Luffy
> 
> 
> WG forum people are taught by Ha001 and his bois  cant help they are so immersed in the lies .
> ...


Immersed in what lie. You seem press the voting is tied right now. Lmfao

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Kingslayer (Feb 20, 2021)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Immersed in what lie. You seem press the voting is tied right now. Lmfao


So far all of the argument has no leeway . The debate is done mate your boi lost in feats to udon luffy


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## Jujubatman12 (Feb 20, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> So far all of the argument has no leeway . The debate is done mate your boi lost in feats to udon luffy


Cap

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hero Link (Feb 20, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Why?


You're assuming that pre-udon Luffy doesn't have the AP required to take down Zoro (how exactly do you know that Zoro can take a Kong Organ or even better, Kong Gatling?), plus other stuff like Zoro being able to one or two shot Luffy with two clean cuts - when the evidence clearly showcases the contrast.

By the way, I see both pre-udon Luffy and current Zoro on a comparable level.
Only because Luffy didn't have the AP required to bypass Kaido's dragon scales with punches, doesn't mean it wouldn't work that well on Zoro as well.


TheWiggian said:


> I said it won't be enough to take down someone like Zoro who literally can tank attacks from a Yonko and Boundman never took down an opponent before Luffy's haki and stamina ran empty.


That's simply an implication to say "Bound Man's AP ain't significant enough to take down Zoro" which I interpreted in that way.
Once again: You do realise that Killer managed to endure said thunder techniques as well? So Bound Man wouldn't deal significant damage on Killer as well?

I do think that Zoro is easily capable to endure a beating from Bound Man in the first round if Luffy is reckless and uses G4th directly - a way to finish Luffy off when he cannot use Haki.
However, Luffy can stall the entire fight with G2/G3 and due to Future Sight - whose mastery I will explain later - he can also land solid hits on Zoro as well. Don't forget that Future Sight literally allows you to do this:



Of course Luffy won't hit Zoro 100% due to the latter's own reactions but he has a clear advantage in combat capacities imo.

Therefore, Zoro will take a good amount of accumulated damage before Luffy uses G4th - that's the part where it's already very difficult to endure a total beating of Bound Man. Especially if the latter decides to pummel your ass with a barrage of Kong Guns (either Kong Organ or Kong Gatling).
Do not forget that Luffy meant to use this attack to finish off Katakuri as well. So it's definitely some sort of finisher; not necessarily as powerful as a KKG but it's still superior to any other technique which Bound Man is able to.
That's why I do not think that Zoro enduring a thunder attack is really enough - especially since Killer endured it too - to say that a barrage of G4th attacks wouldn't take him down. Yes, Zoro would definitely take more than Katakuri or even Doflamingo (I dunno about the latter) but I doubt he's tough enough to take an entire beating from said move with no consequences of the entire fight.


TheWiggian said:


> Have Luffy shown the ability to spam KKG?


Well the moment when Luffy used KKG against Doflamingo, he was literally half-dead and barely able to use his Haki against the latter.
So it's likely that he could use 2 - 3 KKGs before he uses his Haki completely I would say.


TheWiggian said:


> The portrayal of FS and his reactions with it is very shaky.


No, it is not.
You are fooled by Luffy's own goofiness to not take his opponents seriously but the latter always demonstrated a well frequent usage of the ability whenever he used it.

For example in Udon when Luffy and Hyo fought against the gifters.
Look how many times Luffy actually saw in the future and told Hyo the future steps in steps:



Luffy saw the future twice and exactly told Hyogoro how to behave accordingly.
Moreover, Luffy having to be calm - ie. by focusing and closing his eyes or something like that - is nothing but a myth. See how casual Luffy uses his Future Sight - frequently as well.

The only instance, in which Luffy couldn't use FS, was the 1st fight between Luffy and Kaido when the former literally thought Kaido killed his effing friends in front of him. That's only to be expected that Luffy lost his composure there, no?


TheWiggian said:


> Even someone like Kakakuri can lose focus as we have seen.


Exactly; that's what happened after all.


TheWiggian said:


> Luffy is way worse with it in terms of consistency and experience.


Only in terms of experience at best but considering the fact that Luffy is just another battle shounen main character, stuff like experience is only trivial stuff when it comes to technique mastery, don't you think so?

As I said, in terms of consistency, Luffy's FS mastery is comparable to Katakuri - he can even see the same amount of future like Katakuri as the latter confirmed it in the panel above, although it was infrequent. But pre-udon Luffy doesn't have this issue since he already mastered FS.


TheWiggian said:


> Even current boundman Luffy need Law and Zoro to cover him from slower opponents than Katakuri.


???
That literally doesn't make sense. Bound Man was casually dodging Kaido's wind slashes, pummeled him on each occasions and the only instances where Big Mom's lightning (Luffy doesn't have to dodge it since he's immune to lightning anyway) and Kaido's Boro Breath hit Luffy was due to the fact that he let hit himself on purpose as well.


TheWiggian said:


> Never claimed it would be easy to tag him but suggesting Zoro isn't connecting at least a couple of decent slashes which are superior to any lethal attack Katakuri has in his arsenal, considering he can slash through the most durable Yonko currently, a privilege Katakuri doesn't have.


Like I said, Luffy was literally impaled by thick strings several times - and despite being mortally injured prior to that attack, he still endured that amount of accumulated damage and managed to defeat Doflamingo with KKG.

I am not saying that Zoro wouldn't land decent slashes to Luffy but I'm simply arguing against your argument that two decent slashes would already defeat Luffy when the latter provided his toughness dozens of times.
All scabbards managed to slash the most durable Yonko, even Killer. Hell, Kidd managed to inflict damage to Kaido without ryuo or anything else. Yet none of them can easily two shot Bound Man as you claimed before.

You are free to believe otherwise though.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## TheWiggian (Feb 20, 2021)

Hero Link said:


> You're assuming that pre-udon Luffy doesn't have the AP required to take down Zoro (*how exactly do you know that Zoro can take a Kong Organ or even better, Kong Gatling?*), plus other stuff like *Zoro being able to one or two shot Luffy with two clean cuts* - when the evidence clearly showcases the contrast.



Not only did he tank an attack from Big Mom, he also can block the damage , dodge or meet it head on with his superior AP. No one is forcing him to just stand there and eat the hits.



Hero Link said:


> By the way, I see both pre-udon Luffy and current Zoro on a comparable level.
> Only because Luffy didn't have the AP required to bypass Kaido's dragon scales with punches, *doesn't mean it wouldn't work that well on Zoro as well.*



And where did i compare Kaido to Zoro?



Hero Link said:


> That's simply an implication to say "Bound Man's AP ain't significant enough to take down Zoro" which I interpreted in that way.
> Once again: *You do realise that Killer managed to endure said thunder techniques as well? So Bound Man wouldn't deal significant damage on Killer as well?*



I am. How does that exactly discredit Zoro? Killer is featwise superior to even his captain right now.



Hero Link said:


> I do think that Zoro is easily capable to endure a beating from Bound Man in the first round if Luffy is reckless and uses G4th directly - a way to finish Luffy off when he cannot use Haki.
> However, Luffy can stall the entire fight with G2/G3 and due to Future Sight - whose mastery I will explain later - he can also land solid hits on Zoro as well. Don't forget that Future Sight literally allows you to do this:



You're applying Katakuri's mastery of FS to Luffy? Even with him having it, he is nowhere close to Katakuri in consistency and mastery.



Hero Link said:


> Of course Luffy won't hit Zoro 100% due to the latter's own reactions but he has a clear advantage in combat capacities imo.



You mean he has more feats than Zoro. The Supernova's performing similiar to a stronger version of Luffy than pre Udon suggests otherwise. Killer, Kid and Law might lack the firepower of current Luffy and Zoro but in other stats nothing suggests they're far below them and even exceed Luffy in some areas. His future sight is massively lacking and is heavily inconsistent with Zoro and Law being forced to cover him the whole fucking time in the current fight. And both Kaido and Big Mom are nowhere close to Katakuri in speed as evidenced by the Luffy stans over 23 pages ^^

Here an example i brought up yesterday:



If a single hit that connects and hurts Luffy, he instantly loses the ability to read the future and neither sees or feels a massive threat from 2 yonks right after?

This shit refutes all the points of FS making him the nearly invincible fortuneteller his fans claim him to be. He is nowhere even close to Katakuri. Mind you that's the stronger version of Luffy we are talking about than the one Zoro faces here.



Hero Link said:


> *Therefore, Zoro will take a good amount of accumulated damage before Luffy uses G4th* - that's the part where it's already very difficult to endure a total beating of Bound Man. Especially if the latter decides to pummel your ass with a barrage of Kong Guns (either Kong Organ or Kong Gatling).



The last time Luffy used G2/3 to deal with an opponent like Page1 (who is set up against Usopp currently) Ulti (who is set up against Nami) was about to force him into gear 4 if Yamato didn't come for the rescue. I fail to see how a weaker version of that Luffy is supposed to accumulate alot of damage against someone who constantly is ahead of a future sight user and covers his ass on the roof currently.



Hero Link said:


> *Do not forget that Luffy meant to use this attack to finish off Katakuri as well. So it's definitely some sort of finisher;* not necessarily as powerful as a KKG but it's still superior to any other technique which Bound Man is able to.



He didn't though. G4 has no portrayal of finishing anyone off in one round. The break time was nearly always conveniently in Luffy's favour by having some characters defending him while he regains his haki which he won't have in a battledome fight.



Hero Link said:


> *That's why I do not think that Zoro enduring a thunder attack is really enough* - *especially since Killer endured it too* - to say that a barrage of G4th attacks wouldn't take him down. *Yes, Zoro would definitely take more than Katakuri or even Doflamingo (I dunno about the latter) but I doubt he's tough enough to take an entire beating from said move with no consequences of the entire fight.*



I don't know why this attack is looked down on. People claimed those homies can solo top tiers like admirals in the past. It literally is performed by one of her main homies, it struck them clearly and they have no protection against the electricity like Luffy. Not to mention that the name of said attacks sounds promising, i wouldn't know how to hype an ability with a name beyond a god.

It speaks more for the rooftop SN's tenacity. We saw how a lesser thunder clap completely obliterated Judge in his RS for multiple chapters.

If you believe Zoro can take more of a beating than Katakuri and Doflamingo from G4 how is Luffy even taking him down? I never said Zoro will come out unscathed from the fight so.



Hero Link said:


> Well the moment when Luffy used KKG against Doflamingo, he was literally half-dead and barely able to use his Haki against the latter.
> *So it's likely that he could use 2 - 3 KKGs before he uses his Haki completely I would say.*



 So Luffy did display spamming KKG no prob. I must've missed that fight entirely then.



Hero Link said:


> No, it is not.
> You are fooled by Luffy's own goofiness to not take his opponents seriously but the latter always demonstrated a well frequent usage of the ability whenever he used it.
> 
> For example in Udon when Luffy and Hyo fought against the gifters.
> Look how many times Luffy actually saw in the future and told Hyo the future steps in steps:



Nah:



Here another one i brough up above already:



This is an even stronger Luffy with gains post Udon. The whole Katakuri level FS hype you want to apply to Luffy isn't working. His FS is just bad, goofy or not, "his" simply has way worse portrayal. Luffy isn't feeling any intention even with prior warning signs from babanuki and zoro.



Hero Link said:


> *Luffy saw the future twice and exactly told Hyogoro how to behave accordingly.*
> Moreover, Luffy having to be calm - ie. by focusing and closing his eyes or something like that - is nothing but a myth. *See how casual Luffy uses his Future Sight - frequently as well.*



Yea he is just as casually getting overwhelmed by fodders and not even in a serious fight after announcing he is going to become the PK (Zoro putting the bandana on equivalent) can he see Big Mom's fire and Kaido's club coming after him. Again this is a Luffy with more experience and gains, not the one in this match-up.

For every positive FS feat Luffy has shown you can bring up a negative too as evidenced by the panels above of him losing concentration. His portrayal of FS is "inconsistent" and "nowhere close to Katakuri". There is no point in bringing up only the positive feats of it if there are equally as many of the bad ones. It just destroys the argument of it being good on a level of Katakuri, which it's certainly isn't, nowhere even close to it.

And it doesn't help that Luffy himself says he still got alot to learn when it comes to CoO:





Hero Link said:


> *The only instance*, in which Luffy couldn't use FS, was the 1st fight between Luffy and Kaido when the former literally thought Kaido killed his effing friends in front of him. That's only to be expected that Luffy lost his composure there, no?



No, as i already brought up above.



Hero Link said:


> Exactly; that's what happened after all.



With the difference that it only happened once for a very short time for Katakuri and numerous times over long periods for Luffy.



Hero Link said:


> Only in terms of experience at best but considering the fact that Luffy is just another battle shounen main character, stuff like experience is only trivial stuff when it comes to technique mastery, don't you think so?



1 more reason to give characters with the superior version a nod over him.



Hero Link said:


> As I said, in terms of consistency, Luffy's FS mastery is comparable to Katakuri - he can even see the same amount of future like Katakuri as the latter confirmed it in the panel above, although it was infrequent. But pre-udon Luffy doesn't have this issue since he already mastered FS.



He is far from having FS mastered considering even Katakuri can still lose his ability by becoming hotheaded. I see the only argument that truly remains to carry the match-up in advantage for Luffy here has become FS which is really just badly portrayed on him. I think you even agree on this with that statement:

_*The only instance, in which Luffy couldn't use FS, was the 1st fight between Luffy and Kaido when the former literally thought Kaido killed his effing friends in front of him. That's only to be expected that Luffy lost his composure there, no?*_

You're not quite sure if that was the only instance, so you have doubts, that it's as good as you say.



Hero Link said:


> ???
> That literally doesn't make sense. *Bound Man was casually dodging Kaido's wind slashes,* pummeled him on each occasions and the only instances where Big Mom's lightning (Luffy doesn't have to dodge it since he's immune to lightning anyway) and Kaido's Boro Breath hit *Luffy was due to the fact that he let hit himself on purpose as well.*



Why would Oda draw Law and Zoro interfering then?



Luffy looks pretty happy to get covered here, don't you think? The flames are also pretty much past Luffy where Zoro didn't cleave them apart, suggesting he didn't react in time, probably because his haki is very limited in G4.

But the wind slash part is interesting. All SN's reacted to them without a problem and none of them has FS. Sounds like an overrated ability considering how often he is getting supported/defended in this fight by non FS characters.



Hero Link said:


> *Like I said, Luffy was literally impaled by thick strings several times* - and despite being mortally injured prior to that attack, he still endured that amount of accumulated damage and managed to defeat Doflamingo with KKG.



Let's not act that Doffy is anywhere close in lethality to current Zoro. 1 slash from Zoro has Kaidou and Big Mom worried for their safety while Doffy rather doesn't even want to encounter Kaido for a talk. Also that Luffy's CoA defense couldn't even withstand those couple of threads for more than 2 attacks until he went G4 again.

If Luffy so desperately wants to throw a KKG at Zoro he should prepare collecting his arms again, if he survives a strength measuring contest against a Hiryu Kaen that is.



Hero Link said:


> I am not saying that Zoro wouldn't land decent slashes to Luffy but I'm simply arguing against your argument *that two decent slashes would already defeat Luffy* when the latter *provided his toughness dozens of times.*



Anything that is threat to Kaido level durability will really badly fuck up Luffy unless you're suggesting that this version of Luffy is somehow similiarly durable and can endure something like that easily. Last time Luffy's thoughness been put up to the test he landed in Udon's jail.



Hero Link said:


> *All scabbards managed to slash the most durable Yonko, even Killer.* Hell, Kidd managed to inflict damage to Kaido without ryuo or anything else. Yet none of them *can easily two shot Bound Man as you claimed before.*
> 
> You are free to believe otherwise though.



If they can damage someone like Kaido they will all inflict even more damage on Luffy by default because Kaido is vastly above Luffy in those stats and they're still all far below this version of Zoro in lethality. Same people that injured Kaido are in awe of Zoro outright slashing through his scales.

You can ofc entertain the idea that Luffy is anywhere close to Kaido in durability and endurance but i won't.

With that said, waiting for your response. Have a nice day

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## Moldrew (Feb 20, 2021)

Healthy Big Mom’s attacks have been blocked by Base Luffy in WCI, as well as Sanji.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## maupp (Feb 22, 2021)

One thing that get overlooked in these Zoro vs Luffy threads is the match up advantage in favor of Zoro. Swords are simply a bad match up for Luffy. 

The match up becomes especially bad when one is talking about swords with Enma level of lethality which is overkill. 

Not only Current Zoro is stronger than Pre Udon Luffy but he holds up the match up advantage. People just casually assuming that Luffy will be spamming his gattlingas and whatsnot aren't factoring the risks Luffy would be putting himself through. 

Zoro with Enma can chop Luffy's hands, so spamming gattlingas wouldn't be wise. Luffy would have to fight smart(lmao  ) and not just be a reckless wrecking ball.

Some people think Zoro would have to wait out G4 to run out for him to win but Zoro is most likely to win even while Luffy is still in G4. 

People are only seeing one side of the argument. G4 Luffy attacking yet none is asking how Luffy counters Zoro's lethality with almost each of his attacks? 

We've talked about how Zoro would whistand G4, try to avoid attacks etc. What about Luffy? How doesn't he get his limbs severed when Zoro's attack? Just the magical FS? Yet he still get hit loads in fights despite this so called supereme FS. 

Out of Luffy(G4) and Zoro, the one with the most lethality and attacking power is Zoro, so if there has to be anyone worrying about the other it has to be Luffy of Zoro's attacks. 

At least with Luffy it's been proven that fighters can come out of the other side of G4 onslaught. Would Luffy come out of Zoro's attacks? Attacks that had Kaido noping out of the way. Obviously not thus making this fight even more in favor of Zoro than it's already is.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Maruo (Feb 22, 2021)

Honestly, it just comes down to what makes sense in the story. We have not seen Zoro get significantly stronger in any stat outside of attack power, unlike Luffy. Either we assume that Zoro was significantly stronger than Luffy not that long ago, or we assume that Zoro’s stats outside of attack power haven't actually improved that much. The latter makes more sense. For the former to make sense, I think it has to be seriously mentioned as a possibility within the story, which I just don't see happening.

If Zoro is actually near G4 in a number of stats, he is also blatantly stronger than Luffy overall, unless the gap between G2/G3 and G4 is smaller than what a lot of people here think. I believe in the latter possibility, but I don't think many people here agree.

I also don't believe in the inevitability of G5 as a blatant power up for Luffy. Even in the case where it does exist, Zoro likely still has Asura, so I don't think it changes much here.


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## Thdyingbreed (Feb 22, 2021)

Zoro can’t overcome future sight so he loses by default.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hero Link (Feb 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Not only did he tank an attack from Big Mom, *he also can block the damage* , *dodge or meet it head on with his superior AP*.


Okay?
It's nice that he can block or dodge it but that was not my point.

Yet again, you claimed that Zoro won't be taken down by Bound Man's entire skillset since he managed to take Big Mom's thunder attack, although that is damn impressive as well - for example, Judge was defeated by a single thunder attack - you ignored the fact that all supernovas took those thunder attacks here.
Yet you won't read any claims that all supernovas, on the roof, would take an entire beating from Bound Man with no conclusive consequences. Yes, they can handle Bound Man with their own skillset - just like Doflamingo, Cracker and Katakuri - but when it comes to pure brute force, Bound Man outmatches all of them bar Zoro.

Therefore I said: You're assuming that pre-udon Luffy doesn't have the AP required to take down Zoro (*how exactly do you know that Zoro can take a Kong Organ or even better, Kong Gatling?*), plus other stuff *like Zoro being able to one or two shot Luffy with two clean cuts* - when the evidence clearly showcases the contrast.

Zoro has the lethality to cut Luffy's defense - too bad it wouldn't still be enough to defeat him with two clean cuts.


TheWiggian said:


> And where did i compare Kaido to Zoro?


I didn't say you compared Kaido to Zoro, did I?

I mainly pointed out the fact that Bound Man simply lacked the offensive strength to bypass Kaido which is not an issue anymore due to his internal destruction haki. Meanwhile the same issue wouldn't matter on Zoro since Bound Man wouldn't have to struggle with extreme hard skin.
Hence ryuo-less Bound Man would still fuck up Zoro with a clean hit regardless. Besides, that's what you also said about ryuo-less Luffy vs Zoro:

"*Luffy without advanced armament isn't dealing enough damage to take down Zoro*, who easily tanks thunder techniques named after god's from a character that trashed said Luffy at Udon while being restricted with no homies."

Thus, you clearly differentiated between pre-udon Luffy and current Luffy against Zoro when it comes to damage output.
It only matters when it comes to their offensive power but not exactly with their durability.


TheWiggian said:


> How does that exactly discredit Zoro?


It doesn't discredit him but it doesn't also put him on a much higher pedestal than the other supernovas based on the aforementioned feats.


TheWiggian said:


> Killer is featwise superior to even his captain right now.


Why exactly?


TheWiggian said:


> You're applying Katakuri's mastery of FS to Luffy?


No, I didn't.

Once again: *As I said, in terms of consistency, Luffy's FS mastery is comparable to Katakuri* - he can even see the same amount of future like Katakuri as the latter confirmed it in the panel above, although it was infrequent. But pre-udon Luffy doesn't have this issue since he already mastered FS.

Furthermore, I backed up my assertion with clear evidence from the manga when Luffy consistently used FS.

Apart from that, I explained how useful FS actually is in combat. Luffy can practically see the same future as Katakuri - so your mastery argument is invalid; he can use the same kind of methods against other opponents with FS.
The only issue is his consistency compared to Katakuri which only demonstrates that Luffy's consistency is not as good as Katakuri's but only because it's not as good as Kata's, doesn't mean Luffy's FS consistency is not great. That's why I said they're comparable.


TheWiggian said:


> You mean he has more feats than Zoro.


In terms of speed and reactions? Yes.

You also claimed that Killer is better than his Captain feat-wise, so it's clear that you highly argue with feats. Therefore, you're free to provide evidence whether Zoro's speed and reactions are on par if not even better than pre-udon Luffy's.


TheWiggian said:


> The Supernova's performing similiar to a stronger version of Luffy than pre Udon suggests otherwise. Killer, Kid and Law might lack the firepower of current Luffy and Zoro but in other stats nothing suggests they're far below them and even exceed Luffy in some areas. His future sight is massively lacking and is heavily inconsistent with Zoro and Law being forced to cover him the whole fucking time in the current fight. And both Kaido and Big Mom are nowhere close to Katakuri in speed as evidenced by the Luffy stans over 23 pages


They are not - Luffy gets consistently put on a different pedestal than them whenever he engaged Kaido in combat.
The only case can be made about Zoro but only because his AP is extraordinal among the supernovas.

In which areas do they exceed Luffy's stats? Please explain.

No, yet again, it is not. Luffy proved his FS mastery on multiple occasions and it is far from infrequent whenever he used it. He had no issues using FS twice and in contrast to your claim that he has to be incredibly calm, Luffy even casually used FS consistently - see the panels in my previous post.

Yes, they have to support him because Luffy cannot fight two Yonkos at once. That's hardly an anti-feat for FS if you ask me.

Kaido's TB speedblitzed Luffy despite the latter using FS. I'd say he's actually faster than Katakuri with TB. And Big Mom is not far inferior due to the fight that a serious Big Mom managed to keep up with Kaido for a few days.
Besides, what if they're nowhere close to Kata in speed? As if that means much since those two are still incredibly fast - and if you think this is evident for Luffy's lack of FS, I can also bring up Killer and Gyukimaru vs Zoro... Let's not go there.


TheWiggian said:


> If a single hit that connects and hurts Luffy, he instantly loses the ability to read the future and neither sees or feels a massive threat from 2 yonks right after?


That "single hit" took him out in the first round and although it barely grazed him, Luffy lost focus for a short amount of time as it was pointed out by Zoro.

And if it's about the question whether Luffy can still use FS despite getting hits, the Katakuri fight is already evident enough to show that Luffy can still use FS on extreme different circumstances as shown in the last 3 hours, after that Mogura stuff, when both Luffy and Katakuri saw the future and managed to hit each other accordingly or Snake Man vs Katakuri.


TheWiggian said:


> This shit refutes all the points of FS making him the nearly* invincible fortuneteller* his fans claim him to be.


I don't know why that's apparently relevant to point out in this discussion since I clearly stated: *I am not saying that Zoro wouldn't land decent slashes to Luffy* but I'm simply arguing against your argument that two decent slashes would already defeat Luffy when the latter provided his toughness dozens of times.

You are bringing rare anti-feats to try refuting that Luffy's FS mastery is not great when his positive FS feats suggest otherwise.


TheWiggian said:


> He is nowhere even close to Katakuri.


When will Luffy's FS ever be close to Katakuri's, I wonder lol.


TheWiggian said:


> The last time Luffy used G2/3 to deal with an opponent like Page1 (who is set up against Usopp currently) Ulti (who is set up against Nami) was about to force him into gear 4 if Yamato didn't come for the rescue.


Ulti >>>>> Nami.
Page One >>>>>>> Usopp.

They are massively stronger than Nami and Usopp, their first fight clearly demonstrates that. Therefore, it doesn't matter at which ridiculous way they will be defeated by the weakling duo since Luffy easily speedblitzed and injured both of them when he was more serious anyway

Ulti used her full zoan to grab Luffy's arms entirely; a sneak attack since Luffy was busy beating Page One's ass. Using G4th to finish off a small fry as quickly as possible doesn't mean Luffy cannot knock them out with G2 and G3 as well. Hell, he almost dislocated Page One's jaw with a single EG.


TheWiggian said:


> I fail to see how a weaker version of that Luffy is supposed to accumulate alot of damage against someone who constantly is ahead of a future sight user and covers his ass on the roof currently.


It depends.
If their fight is going to last a few hours, Luffy will accumulate alot of damage against Zoro. Also, Zoro is constantly ahead of a future sight user? Interesting, can you provide your assertion with evidence?


TheWiggian said:


> He didn't though. G4 has no portrayal of finishing anyone off in one round.


It's because Katakuri avoided all the punches with his shapeshifting - or do you think he could take all of them at once?

Okay, Katakuri could perhaps take 5 hits from Bound Man (although the third hit already taunted him a lot as he was very struggling to endure it) but I doubt he would take 10 - 20 Kong Gun punches at once.

Btw, Kaido is the ONLY character who tanked a Kong Organ head-on:



Doflamingo, Cracker and Katakuri - all of them had the abilities to avoid the brute force of Bound Man.
Zoro has to rely on his Haki and his swordsmanship to match this force - I definitely believe that he could do it - but if Bound Man actually manages to go through Zoro's Haki defense, Zoro cannot simply shapeshift his way through it, he cannot simply make an entire wall of strings to block the attack and he cannot also make several soldiers who act as shields to protect him.
Thus, Zoro would take a lot of powerful punches and perhaps he has to endure ALL OF THEM if Bound Man catches him for once.


TheWiggian said:


> I don't know why this attack is looked down on. *People claimed those homies can solo top tiers like admirals in the past.* It literally is performed by one of her main homies, it struck them clearly and they have no protection against the electricity like Luffy. Not to mention that the name of said attacks sounds promising, i wouldn't know how to hype an ability with a name beyond a god.


It's not looked down on; Zoro tanking the attack is impressive but so did the other supernovas.
Yet this does not mean that they would walk out after an entire beating from Bound Man only because they managed to endure one thunder attack.

That's an example that said people clearly did not read the manga if they thought that those homies can solo other top tiers.

I'd say these thunder attacks were stronger than her usual thunder techniques. Yet again, still no solid proof that said supernovas would take a beating from Bound Man with no real consequences.


TheWiggian said:


> We saw how a lesser thunder clap completely obliterated Judge in his RS for multiple chapters.


It simply proves that their stats are significantly higher than a high mid tier/low high tier in which I'm placing Judge at.
Look at Cracker, he managed to keep up with Bound Man but the moment Tank Man managed to catch him once, he was literally one shotted. 

Before you say that Cracker has weak endurance, this is not a fact. He's known to have weak pain tolerance, ie. he cannot even stand a needle. But it doesn't mean that he cannot take stronger attacks as well. 
Cracker is far stronger than Judge btw.


TheWiggian said:


> If you believe Zoro can take more of a beating than Katakuri and Doflamingo from G4 how is Luffy even taking him down?


Like I said, a well combo of Kong Organ, Leo Bazooka or a few KKGs could take him down.
Neither Katakuri nor Doflamingo had to take more than 10 hits from Bound Man.


TheWiggian said:


> So Luffy did display spamming KKG no prob.


Did I say something about Luffy that he displayed spamming KKGs? No.
I said that he was in a very critical condition when he threw KKG at Doflamingo as it is evident that Luffy went to coma for a few days after that.

 A healthy Luffy should be able to throw more than one KKG at least =/= Luffy spamming KKGs no problem.


TheWiggian said:


> Nah:


Nah:



Despite being plagued by Queen's virus, Luffy still saw in the future to prevent a tragic outcome for the prisoners.



TheWiggian said:


> Here another one i brough up above already:


Here is also another one which showcases the contrast:



I mean, we can keep posting circumstantial feats here or either wait how many times Luffy uses FS in a specific situation mid-combat but that's literally absurd when we have lots of evidence pointing at the fact that Luffy mastered FS.



TheWiggian said:


> This is an even stronger Luffy with gains post Udon.


So his stats gains elevated him an entire tier up?
Then why did he only deal moderate damage to Page One with a single Elephant Gun? Why could Yamato easily block his G2/G3 attacks as well?

Although Luffy got a physical boost in udon due to the seastone training, it's clear that his ryuo-training was his biggest and strongest PU this arc. 

Without ryuo, Luffy only almost dislocated Page One's jaw meanwhile his Red Roc managed to inflict good superficial damage to base Kaido. It's clear that ryuo massively increases his offensive power.


TheWiggian said:


> The whole Katakuri level FS hype you want to apply to Luffy isn't working.


Except I used Luffy's own FS to showcase his CoO mastery in terms of predictions.
Katakuri wasn't there when he casually used FS twice to guide Hyogoro accordingly.


TheWiggian said:


> Yea he is just as casually getting overwhelmed by fodders and not even in a serious fight after announcing he is going to become the PK (Zoro putting the bandana on equivalent) can he see Big Mom's fire and Kaido's club coming after him.


First statement is irrelevant yet again. 
Luffy getting overwhelmed by fodders does not discredit the fact that he can use FS frequently - and casual as well as proven in my previous post.

No, that's not an equivalent to Zoro putting his bandana on. Luffy announced his PK goal several times while still goofing around. That's how Luffy's character is. And you sure can bet that Luffy wouldn't underestimate Zoro at all, even with no knowledge (the conditions which the OP made).

Yet again. He's fighting two Yonkos. One or two mistakes can be expected - that's why Zoro also told Luffy to never drop his guard because instances like Kaido suddenly hitting Luffy from behind can always happen.
Especially against two top tiers, it's very difficult to be constant focused on a single target. Replace Luffy with any other supernova on the roof and they wouldn't even dodge Kaido's Thunder Bagua. Perhaps not even Zoro. That's simply the advantage of FS in which Luffy can react accordingly on certain situations.


TheWiggian said:


> For every positive FS feat Luffy has shown you can bring up a negative too as evidenced by the panels above of him losing concentration.


The thing is, you cannot make a case of FS inconsistency when Luffy is there proving that he used FS consistently for a fact.
You can bring up a situation in which Luffy only used FS once and that was all but you cannot disprove a feat in which Luffy *clearly showcased his actual skillset on screen*.


TheWiggian said:


> His portrayal of FS is "inconsistent" and "nowhere close to Katakuri".


How? They can see the same future, as proven by Katakuri's statement, so the only issue is the consistency.
Yet again, despite not showing FS 24/7, Luffy clearly used FS as casual as he did with basic CoO previously. So he has no apparent issues with FS as you falsely claim.


TheWiggian said:


> And it doesn't help that Luffy himself says he still got alot to learn when it comes to CoO:


You are clearly distorting Luffy's statement here.
His statement was about sensing opponents very far away. That's *a different application of CoO*. 

You cannot throw all advanced CoO forms alltogether. That doesn't work.
Fujitora has no FS but his CoO is not less advanced. He is blind but he can literally "see" more than ordinary on island range. Luffy does not have this skillset but he can sense the will of an attack and the exact emotions of people. 

As you can see here:



Sensing and prediction something are two different kind of applications in terms of CoO. 

Therefore, if Luffy is going to improve his CoO even further, it's going to be sensing things even further and - the most important part - more concentrated.


TheWiggian said:


> No, as i already brought up above.


No.


TheWiggian said:


> With the difference that it only happened once for a very short time for Katakuri and numerous times over long periods for Luffy.


Katakuri losing his shit after the chefs saw his face vs Luffy thinking his crew members died in front of him.
I see no difference in this situation as both lost their composure on such heavy circumstances.


TheWiggian said:


> 1 more reason to give characters with the superior version a nod over him.


Based on what? Katakuri's version is NOT superior:


"Yes...It's true. Very infrequently, he sees the same future that I do!!"
So how exactly is Katakuri's version superior? You are free to provide your claim with evidence as always.


TheWiggian said:


> He is far from having FS mastered *considering even Katakuri can still lose his ability by becoming hotheaded*.


So Luffy hasn't mastered FS yet because even Katakuri can still lose his ability by losing his composure??
When is Luffy going to master FS? Never?


TheWiggian said:


> I see the only argument that truly remains to carry the match-up in advantage for Luffy here has become FS which is really just badly portrayed on him.


Luffy has an advantage in combat capacities due to FS but it doesn't mean that Luffy has an advantage over Zoro in general.

Like I said, I see both pre-udon Luffy and Zoro on a comparable level now. Of course this depends what Zoro is going to show next besides a clear PU in terms of AP. But as much as Zoro has an advantage in terms of offensive power, Luffy can still edge this out with his speed, reactions, pre-cog and mobility.

A match-up depends on many stats besides AP and although Zoro's overall stats are clearly high tier levelled, it doesn't mean that Luffy's own stats are irrelevant in front of Zoro.


TheWiggian said:


> I think you even agree on this with that statement:


No, I didn't.
You clearly took this statement out of context.


TheWiggian said:


> You're not quite sure if that was the only instance, so you have doubts, that it's as good as you say.


I am actually sure that this was the only instance in which Luffy couldn't use FS for real.
Unless you have other instances where Luffy was *unable to use FS *- hence instances in which Luffy tried but couldn't - I'll keep on believing that.


TheWiggian said:


> Why would Oda draw Law and Zoro interfering then?


This is a team battle - 5 supernovas vs two Yonkos.
Law and Zoro interfering Kaido highlights the fact that they are covering Luffy's back.


TheWiggian said:


> Luffy looks pretty happy to get covered here, don't you think?


Yeah, because - as I said - they were covering his back. 

Why shouldn't Luffy be happy that Zoro helps him? He knows that he fights two Yonkos, so pride is the last thing Luffy would think about right now. 

As much as they helped Luffy against Kaido, Luffy also helped them:



You clearly cannot grasp the fact that them helping each other is a good demonstration of their teamplay. When Oda drew Zoro intervening Kaido's Boro Breath, he didn't intent to showcase that Luffy's FS isn't good or something like that. It is to show *how Zoro literally acts as Luffy's right hand* - supporting Luffy with all his might. 
It's also the same with Law and although Law isn't his right hand man, he still didn't hesistate to cover Luffy's back even though he acts up all tsundere lol.

BTW, why did Law not intervene here:



It is not because Law couldn't do it, it is because Oda highlighted Luffy's first successful strike to a Yonko.


TheWiggian said:


> All SN's reacted to them without a problem and none of them has FS.


Well it's a good reaction feat but it doesn't have to do with FS.
As I said, FS is very versatile in overall combat capacities, not just in terms of reactions.


TheWiggian said:


> Sounds like an overrated ability considering how often he is getting supported/defended in this fight by non FS characters.


???
Is barrier haki an overrated ability because Kidd managed to inflict damage to Kaido without ryuo? This statement is pure nonsense as you're comparing apples with oranges.


TheWiggian said:


> Let's not act that Doffy is anywhere close in lethality to current Zoro.


I didn't claim he's close to Zoro in terms of lethality, did I?
Once again, I said Luffy was impaled several times and still endured it despite being massively injured prior to that attack.

How does it matter that Zoro's lethality is stronger when Luffy can still endure clean cuts from him?


TheWiggian said:


> 1 slash from Zoro has Kaidou and Big Mom worried for their safety while Doffy rather doesn't even want to encounter Kaido for a talk.


Yeah, because said slash would most likely cut them for real, not just a paper cut like everything before.
But it wouldn't make a huge difference to Luffy if strings impales his body or a few powerful slashes cutting him deep when he demonstrated several times to struggle these kind of injuries off. 


TheWiggian said:


> Also that Luffy's CoA defense couldn't even withstand those couple of threads for more than 2 attacks until he went G4 again.


He tanked a few more threads than two if you ask me:



It was a spamming attack in which those threads consistently hit Luffy's body until it impaled him completely.


TheWiggian said:


> If Luffy so desperately wants to throw a KKG at Zoro he should prepare collecting his arms again, if he survives a strength measuring contest against a Hiryu Kaen that is.


Well, as I said, match-up circumstances obviously matter and if Luffy rushes things, it's highly likely that Zoro is going to defeat him because of that. 

Furthermore, Luffy doesn't have to do a strength measuring ontest against Zoro. Dodging the huge slashes and deflecting the smaller ones is still a good method to keep Zoro at bay.


TheWiggian said:


> Anything that is threat to Kaido level durability will really badly fuck up Luffy unless you're suggesting that this version of Luffy is somehow similiarly durable and can endure something like that easily.


So Izo can easily penetrate Bound Man's hardening + rubbery defense like it's nothing because he can cut through Kaido's dragon scales?


TheWiggian said:


> Last time Luffy's thoughness been put up to the test he landed in Udon's jail.


1.) Kaido literally clubed Luffy's face. Unless Luffy applied hardening here (which is hardly relevant on his face as his defense mainly rains on his rubber ball like body with hardening), it is not a clear demonstration of Luffy's lack of toughness.
2.) Blunt force damage is still different to cuts.


TheWiggian said:


> If they can damage someone like Kaido they will all inflict even more damage on Luffy by default because Kaido is vastly above Luffy in those stats and they're still all far below this version of Zoro in lethality.


Interesting, so Izo and Raizou can two shot Bound Man, aight lol.

I am not saying that the scabbards cannot injure Luffy but injuring and actually defeating an opponent are two different things. Luffy is a literal endurance monster who can endure a beating for several hours, was impaled several times and can take it and so forth. 
Zoro has higher lethality than the scabbards and yet, he needs more than two clean cuts to defeat Luffy if you ask me. And no, injuring Kaido doesn't mean that you can one or two shot everyone else by default.

Fujitora was literally bruised by an Elephant Gun meanwhile Kaido tanked a Kong Organ. But the scabbards managed to inflict damage to Kaido, so they would fuck up Fujitora with their cuts as well? Two shotting him in result?

BTW, Zoro managed to slash through Kaido's dragon scales but so did the scabbards. It's not a Zoro-only-exclusive-feat. 
The only far superior slash was Hiryu Kaen which was highlighted to seriously injure Kaido as Big Mom was saying to Kaido to dodge it.


TheWiggian said:


> You can ofc entertain the idea that Luffy is anywhere close to Kaido in durability and endurance but i won't.


It's difficult to say anything about Kaido's endurance as all wounds heals from him anyway.


TheWiggian said:


> With that said, waiting for your response. Have a nice day


Here is my response. Feel free to post your response whenever you like, I'll wait anyway.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 23, 2021)

Hero Link said:


> Okay?
> It's nice that he can block or dodge it but *that was not my point.*



It might not be your point but it is even a bonus on top of capable of tanking Yonko attacks.



Hero Link said:


> Yet again, you claimed that Zoro won't be taken down by Bound Man's entire skillset since he managed to take Big Mom's thunder attack, although that is damn impressive as well - for example, Judge was defeated by a single thunder attack - you ignored the fact that *all supernovas took those thunder attacks here.*



Again. How does that dehype Zoro in relation to VS pre Udon Luffy?



Hero Link said:


> Yet you won't read any claims that all supernovas, on the roof, would take an entire beating from Bound Man with no conclusive consequences. Yes, they can handle Bound Man with their own skillset - just like Doflamingo, Cracker and Katakuri - but when it comes to pure brute force, *Bound Man outmatches all of them bar Zoro.*



I have no idea if he outmatches them because we barely even seen Killer and his partner fight. But based on the fact that they all show a similiar tenacity to Zoro, nothing suggests they would easily go down to him. No point in deflecting, we talk about Zoro who has incredible endurance portrayal throughough the series on top of his defense/block capabilities with his swords.



Hero Link said:


> Therefore I said: You're assuming that pre-udon Luffy doesn't have the AP required to take down Zoro (*how exactly do you know that Zoro can take a Kong Organ or even better, Kong Gatling?*), plus other stuff *like Zoro being able to one or two shot Luffy with two clean cuts* - when the evidence clearly showcases the contrast.



Because of Zoro's great portrayal in his defense with the swords and endurance portrayal. Luffy blew a whole load at Kaido with the latter not even taking a scratch while Zoro easily slashes through the same target with a casual move. The difference in portrayal of AP between Zoro and pre Udon Luffy is massive. 1 slashes through Kaido and gets his praise while the other in "what PK boy?"



Hero Link said:


> Zoro has the lethality to cut Luffy's defense - too bad it wouldn't still be enough to defeat him with two clean cuts.



Whatever can injure Kaido will deal far worse to Luffy because Kaido >>> Luffy in durability and endurance



Hero Link said:


> I mainly pointed out the fact that Bound Man simply lacked the offensive strength to bypass Kaido which is not an issue anymore due to his internal destruction haki. *Meanwhile the same issue wouldn't matter on Zoro since Bound Man wouldn't have to struggle with extreme hard skin.*



Instead it would struggle by getting his arms cut by Zoro's sword similiar to this:



Mind you Zoro's offense is by far above Cracker. 




Hero Link said:


> Hence ryuo-less Bound Man would still fuck up Zoro with a clean hit regardless. Besides, that's what you also said about ryuo-less Luffy vs Zoro:
> 
> "*Luffy without advanced armament isn't dealing enough damage to take down Zoro*, who easily tanks thunder techniques named after god's from a character that trashed said Luffy at Udon while being restricted with no homies."
> 
> ...



Don't see what changed. Couldn't take down Doffy even with Law putting in work before. Couldn't take down Cracker, needed Nami's help for hours and replenish energy. Couldn't take down Katakuri, needed Brulee to escape. 

Nothing suggests it would take down one of the strongest SN's either who has a history with insane tenacity.



Hero Link said:


> It doesn't discredit him but it doesn't also put him on a much higher pedestal than the other supernovas based on the aforementioned feats.



How does this exactly has any relation to this fight though?



Hero Link said:


> Why exactly?



Because his feats are better?  



Hero Link said:


> No, I didn't.
> 
> Once again: *As I said, in terms of consistency, Luffy's FS mastery is comparable to Katakuri* - he can even see the same amount of future like Katakuri as the latter confirmed it in the panel above, although it was infrequent. But pre-udon Luffy doesn't have this issue since he already mastered FS.
> 
> ...



Pointless to argue further if you just ignore his negative FS feats:





Or where he potentially doesn't even use it because he is very limited on time:





Hero Link said:


> In terms of speed and reactions? Yes.
> 
> You also claimed that Killer is better than his Captain feat-wise, so it's clear that you highly argue with feats. Therefore, you're free to provide evidence whether Zoro's speed and reactions are on par if not even better than pre-udon Luffy's.







I actually wonder who the true FS users are here. Luffy or Law and Zoro. Luffy is hella slow in both speed and reactions in the latest chapters.



Hero Link said:


> They are not - Luffy gets consistently put on a different pedestal than them whenever he engaged Kaido in combat.
> The only case can be made about Zoro but only because his AP is extraordinal among the supernovas.
> 
> *In which areas do they exceed Luffy's stats? Please explain.*
> ...



Stamina for sure especially if he is forced to fight in G4. Also it seems that Zoro's haki pool is larger than Luffy's.

Hmmm weird. If you think so highly of Kaido's and Big Mom's speed that only makes it look worse for Luffy since all SN's keep up mighty fine with both Yonks despite lacking the FS of the strawhat.



Hero Link said:


> That "single hit" took him out in the first round and although it barely grazed him, Luffy lost focus for a short amount of time as it was pointed out by Zoro.
> 
> And if it's about the question whether Luffy can still use FS despite getting hits, *the Katakuri fight is already evident enough to show that Luffy can still use FS on extreme different circumstances* as shown in the last 3 hours, after that Mogura stuff, when both Luffy and Katakuri saw the future and managed to hit each other accordingly or Snake Man vs Katakuri.



Then the current fight heavily contradicts his Katakuri showing, once again making his FS feats inconsistent as i said.



Hero Link said:


> I don't know why that's apparently relevant to point out in this discussion since I clearly stated: *I am not saying that Zoro wouldn't land decent slashes to Luffy* but I'm simply arguing against your argument that two decent slashes would already defeat Luffy when the latter provided his toughness dozens of times.
> 
> *You are bringing rare anti-feats* to try refuting that Luffy's FS mastery is not great when his positive FS feats suggest otherwise.
> 
> When will Luffy's FS ever be close to Katakuri's, I wonder lol.



Zoro's AP is a threat to the most durable Yonks in the series and you're suggesting Luffy will be fine when hit by those attacks? Meh.

Also those "anti-feats" are not rare but all over the place especially right now, in this fight. It doesn't help either that Luffy himself admits he needs to improve his CoO. 



Hero Link said:


> Ulti >>>>> Nami.
> Page One >>>>>>> Usopp.
> 
> They are massively stronger than Nami and Usopp, their first fight clearly demonstrates that. Therefore, it doesn't matter at which ridiculous way they will be defeated by the weakling duo since Luffy easily speedblitzed and injured both of them when he was more serious anyway
> ...



So another negative showing for the almighty future sight. Incapable to break out of the grip of someone who is getting one shot by a single EG isn't a good showing either.



Hero Link said:


> It depends.
> If their fight is going to last a few hours, Luffy will accumulate alot of damage against Zoro. Also, Zoro is constantly ahead of a future sight user? Interesting, can you provide your assertion with evidence?



Reread 1001 and 1002 where not only Zoro but also Law are both ahead of the invincible future sight user that cannot be tagged by saving him from attacks.



Hero Link said:


> It's because Katakuri avoided all the punches with his shapeshifting - or do you think he could take all of them at once?
> 
> Okay, Katakuri could perhaps take 5 hits from Bound Man (although the third hit already taunted him a lot as he was very struggling to endure it) but I doubt he would take 10 - 20 Kong Gun punches at once.
> 
> ...



Zoro doesn't necessarily needs to block those. A hiryu kaen or kokujo ootatsumaki will power through it just like it powered through Kaido's natural disaster or he can dodge. And ofc Boundman will catch him numerous times, question is will it finish him if it couldn't finish all previous opponents with support? Doubt that. Also Boundman never faced the same lethality and AP like from current Zoro. He would need to avoid most strikes, most of the time else it will hurt very very badly. Katakuri had the most AP and lethality and this guy is nowhere close to even scratch someone like Kaido or his mother.



Hero Link said:


> *It's not looked down on; Zoro tanking the attack is impressive but so did the other supernovas.*
> Yet this does not mean that they would walk out after an entire beating from Bound Man only because they managed to endure one thunder attack.
> 
> That's an example that said people clearly did not read the manga if they thought that those homies can solo other top tiers.
> ...



It is. Those elemental attacks are up to date the strongest of her main homies while Luffy had Sanji on his side to match the weaker versions of it at WCI. Also i never said he would have any consequences when getting hit but that it won't be enough to take him down before the time limit runs out.



Hero Link said:


> It simply proves that their stats are significantly higher than a high mid tier/low high tier in which I'm placing Judge at.
> Look at Cracker, he managed to keep up with Bound Man but the moment Tank Man managed to catch him once, he was literally one shotted.
> 
> *Before you say that Cracker has weak endurance, this is not a fact.* He's known to have weak pain tolerance, ie. he cannot even stand a needle. But it doesn't mean that he cannot take stronger attacks as well.
> Cracker is far stronger than Judge btw.



Cracker is a glass canon. Not even gonna go into detail about it. He was never hit with a single attack and gone down once one connected.



Hero Link said:


> Like I said, a well combo of Kong Organ, Leo Bazooka or a few KKGs could take him down.
> Neither Katakuri nor Doflamingo had to take more than 10 hits from Bound Man.



If Zoro just stands there watching the clouds.

That's like me saying 1 Hiryu Kaen bisects Luffy. 



Hero Link said:


> *Did I say something about Luffy that he displayed spamming KKGs? No.*
> I said that he was in a very critical condition when he threw KKG at Doflamingo as it is evident that Luffy went to coma for a few days after that.
> 
> *A healthy Luffy should be able to throw more than one KKG at least* =/= Luffy spamming KKGs no problem.









Hero Link said:


> Nah:



And right before that we had this even with a warning from babanuki:



Every positive feat has a negative to counter it. Gonna agree his FS is inconsistent or will you keep denying it?




Hero Link said:


> Despite being plagued by Queen's virus, Luffy still saw in the future to prevent a tragic outcome for the prisoners.
> 
> 
> Here is also another one which showcases the contrast:
> ...



And this happened right after:





Here he fails even twice vs a positive feat. Will you keep denying it's inconsistent?



Hero Link said:


> So his stats gains elevated him an entire tier up?
> *Then why did he only deal moderate damage to Page One with a single Elephant Gun?* Why could Yamato easily block his G2/G3 attacks as well?
> 
> Although Luffy got a physical boost in udon due to the seastone training, it's clear that his ryuo-training was his biggest and strongest PU this arc.
> ...



I don't get how your argument works by first hyping P1/dehyping Luffy before shitting on P1 while praising the strawhat and if iam even needed to reply to this. 



Hero Link said:


> Except I used Luffy's own FS to showcase his CoO mastery in terms of predictions.
> Katakuri wasn't there when he casually used FS twice to guide Hyogoro accordingly.



How does this help if Luffy can't properly use FS when it is needed like on the rooftop right now but he cannot replicate his Udon feats?



Hero Link said:


> First statement is irrelevant yet again.
> *Luffy getting overwhelmed by fodders does not discredit* the fact that he can use FS frequently - and casual as well as proven in my previous post.
> 
> No, that's not an equivalent to Zoro putting his bandana on. Luffy announced his PK goal several times while still goofing around. That's how Luffy's character is. *And you sure can bet that Luffy wouldn't underestimate Zoro at all*, even with no knowledge (the conditions which the OP made).
> ...



Oh ofc it discredits his FS lol. What is it good for then?

Why wouldn't Luffy underestimate Zoro (even if this was not my initial argument) if he casually underestimates 2 Yonko and can make same mistakes he does against them? He kept dropping his guard even after Zoro told him to focus and Law had to shamble him away from the threat.

His FS isn't good, far from Katakuri even. It gives him the ability to look into the future just like Katakuri but the difference in mastery and consistency is massive between the two. Luffy constantly has his defense down, loses focus or is just an idiot. And especially in G4 which already drains his haki pool FS will only speed up the process.



Hero Link said:


> The thing is, you cannot make a case of FS inconsistency when Luffy is there proving that he used FS consistently for a fact.
> You can bring up a situation in which Luffy only used FS once and that was all but you cannot disprove a feat in which Luffy *clearly showcased his actual skillset on screen*.



Ofc i can. I did. And i will continue to do because there is more than enough evidence of his positive feats with it aswell as the nagative amount.



Hero Link said:


> How? *They can see the same future*, as proven by Katakuri's statement, so the only issue is the consistency.
> Yet again, despite not showing FS 24/7, Luffy clearly used FS as casual as he did with basic CoO previously. So he has no apparent issues with FS as you falsely claim.



My my, what are you arguing? I never claimed Luffy doesn't see the future. His haki pool is smaller especially in G4, his consistency to use it successfully is lacking, he constantly loses focus or fucks around. That's the points iam arguing. He got a long way to go to arrive at Katakuri's mastery and consistency.



Hero Link said:


> *You are clearly distorting Luffy's statement here.*
> His statement was about sensing opponents very far away. That's *a different application of CoO*.
> 
> You cannot throw all advanced CoO forms alltogether. That doesn't work.
> ...



Iam not. He clearly says CoO. Not sensing. Not reading future, but everything related to the colour of the observation, which includes everything of the mentioned.



Hero Link said:


> No.
> 
> Katakuri losing his shit after the chefs saw his face vs Luffy thinking his crew members died in front of him.
> I see no difference in this situation as both lost their composure on such heavy circumstances.



So Katakuri only lost his composure once which is related to a secret only he and Brulee know. Luffy lost it countless times with the latest not being capable of reading and reacting to Kaido and Big Mom (Law and Zoro saving him), not able to see and react to Ulti grabbing him, not able to read and react to Apo nuking him down for example of this war at Onigashima "ONLY". Massive difference. Still gonna deny Luffy's FS feats are inconsistent? 



Hero Link said:


> Based on what? Katakuri's version is NOT superior:
> 
> 
> *"Yes...It's true. Very infrequently, he sees the same future that I do!!"
> So how exactly is Katakuri's version superior? You are free to provide your claim with evidence as always.*



Never argued Luffy "cannot" see the future. I have no idea why you choose to blatantly ignore the difference in Katakuri's and Luffy's FS portrayal though. They both can see the future, i never argued that.

One does it constantly at all times with only 1 slip up that is related to a secret that he tries to hide from everyone while the other constantly slips up, barely uses it from time to time suggesting his haki pool is fucking tiny compared to the former, it's simply not the shade he specialises in, same can't be said for Katakuri. And so on.



Hero Link said:


> So Luffy hasn't mastered FS yet because even Katakuri can still lose his ability by losing his composure??
> When is Luffy going to master FS? Never?



Exactly. And Luffy is far worse when it comes to composure, he is simply not the right character for an ability that needs a calculating and calm state of mind while he is hotheaded. 

Going by the above probably never. It will remain an ability that can give him the opportunity to survive on a few instances when plot demands it. It clearly is not his forte.



Hero Link said:


> Luffy has an advantage in combat capacities due to FS but it doesn't mean that Luffy has an advantage over Zoro in general.
> 
> Like I said, I see both pre-udon Luffy and Zoro on a comparable level now. Of course this depends what Zoro is going to show next besides a clear PU in terms of AP. But as much as Zoro has an advantage in terms of offensive power, *Luffy can still edge this out with his speed, reactions, pre-cog and mobility.*
> 
> A match-up depends on many stats besides AP and although Zoro's overall stats are clearly high tier levelled, it doesn't mean that Luffy's own stats are irrelevant in front of Zoro.



Those stats are meaningless in front of lethality and AP that can make quick work out of you if you lose concentration for a single second. He would constantly need to break up his advance if someone with superior power and lethality decides to meet your attacks with his own and manuever around it to set up a new attack. His time limit in G4 and general portrayal of a poor haki pool just doesn't suggest he can do this for a long time without outside factors (support characters). It doesn't help that his opponent is monstrous in terms of damage soak either.



Hero Link said:


> No, I didn't.
> You clearly took this statement out of context.



You clearly do. You weren't sure if that was Luffy's only instance of losing FS when Kaido blew up Oden castle with his friends. I showed you more examples such as Udon where the prisoners overwhelm him with a previous warning from babanuki to go for Luffy. Apo making Luffy his bitch despite futre sight. Ulti grabbing him easily without him seeing it coming. Big Mom nearly tagging him if not for Zoro and right after Kaido connecting another club swing if not for Law.



Hero Link said:


> I am actually sure that this was the only instance in which Luffy couldn't use FS for real.
> Unless you have other instances where Luffy was *unable to use FS *- hence instances in which Luffy tried but couldn't - I'll keep on believing that.



Just gonna copy at this point:

_I showed you more examples such as Udon where the prisoners overwhelm him with a previous warning from babanuki to go for Luffy. Apo making Luffy his bitch despite futre sight. Ulti grabbing him easily without him seeing it coming. Big Mom nearly tagging him if not for Zoro and right after Kaido connecting another club swing if not for Law._

*What are the excuses for this? He doesn't have FS in fights/enemy territory?*



Hero Link said:


> This is a team battle - 5 supernovas vs two Yonkos.
> Law and Zoro interfering Kaido highlights the fact that they are covering Luffy's back.



Why would they need to though if Luffy can see the future and just did so? Is it only good enough to dodge 1 attack and exhausts him? How do they react equally if not outright faster to the same opponents without FS?



Hero Link said:


> Yeah, because - as I said - they were covering his back.
> 
> Why shouldn't Luffy be happy that Zoro helps him? He knows that he fights two Yonkos, so pride is the last thing Luffy would think about right now.
> 
> ...



Law did intervene there, he literally transported the scabbards downstairs.



Hero Link said:


> Well it's a good reaction feat but it doesn't have to do with FS.
> *As I said, FS is very versatile in overall combat capacities, not just in terms of reactions.*



Yea definitely was standing out with non FS users performing equally.



Hero Link said:


> ???
> *Is barrier haki* an overrated ability because Kidd managed to inflict damage to Kaido without ryuo? This statement is pure nonsense as you're comparing apples with oranges.



Don't deflect. Where was Luffy's invincible future sight here?



Hero Link said:


> I didn't claim he's close to Zoro in terms of lethality, did I?
> Once again, I said Luffy was impaled several times and still endured it despite being massively injured prior to that attack.
> 
> *How does it matter that Zoro's lethality is stronger when Luffy can still endure clean cuts from him?*



Where did Luffy endure clean cuts from Zoro? Especially current Zoro? That's exactly like saying meh Doffy's threads = current Zoro's slashes. 1 can injure the most durable skin/scales in the series while the other can't but it doesn't matter, they're equal.



Hero Link said:


> Yeah, because said slash would most likely cut them for real, not just a paper cut like everything before.
> *But it wouldn't make a huge difference to Luffy if strings impales his body or a few powerful slashes cutting him deep when he demonstrated several times to struggle these kind of injuries off.*



KK. Sure you clearly show bias here. No difference between an attack that can potentially scar Kaido vs threads that cannot even tickle him. Luffy's durability isn't anywhere close to Kaido, not even with hardening protecting him. He potentially would lose a limb from a hiryu kaen for example.



Hero Link said:


> He tanked a few more threads than two if you ask me:
> 
> 
> 
> It was a spamming attack in which those threads consistently hit Luffy's body until it impaled him completely.



Speaks alot for Doffy's attack power  

Call me when he can even tickle Kaido with that shit.



Hero Link said:


> Well, as I said, match-up circumstances obviously matter and if Luffy rushes things, it's highly likely that Zoro is going to defeat him because of that.
> 
> Furthermore, Luffy doesn't have to do a strength measuring ontest against Zoro. Dodging the huge slashes and deflecting the smaller ones is still a good method to keep Zoro at bay.



Yea he can do that. But he would lose valueable time in the process. Especially in G4.



Hero Link said:


> *So Izo can easily penetrate Bound Man's hardening + rubbery defense like it's nothing because he can cut through Kaido's dragon scales?*



Ofc lol. What kind of question is that? Kaido shits on Luffy in durability.



Hero Link said:


> 1.) Kaido literally clubed Luffy's face. Unless Luffy applied hardening here (which is hardly relevant on his face as his defense mainly rains on his rubber ball like body with hardening), it is not a clear demonstration of Luffy's lack of toughness.
> 2.) Blunt force damage is still different to cuts.



His whole body is rubber. Head included + haki on top.



Hero Link said:


> *Interesting, so Izo and Raizou can two shot Bound Man, aight lol.*
> 
> I am not saying that the scabbards cannot injure Luffy but injuring and actually defeating an opponent are two different things. Luffy is a literal endurance monster who can endure a beating for several hours, was impaled several times and can take it and so forth.
> Zoro has higher lethality than the scabbards and yet, he needs more than two clean cuts to defeat Luffy if you ask me. And no, injuring Kaido doesn't mean that you can one or two shot everyone else by default.
> ...



Never said Raizo can two shot boundman. He can easily injure him though if he connects since he was capable of injuring Kaido.

Did you ignore the part that scabbards don't have Zoro's ap?



Hero Link said:


> It's difficult to say anything about Kaido's endurance as all wounds heals from him anyway.



Difficult? He endures them easily and keeps going, the regeneration happens afterwards.



Hero Link said:


> Here is my response. Feel free to post your response whenever you like, I'll wait anyway.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## maupp (Feb 24, 2021)

People have got to stop bringing up Luffy's speed or FS when we see him get tagged all the time since the raid started. Oda like many shounen battle mangaka sometimes never think beyond the fight they're writing hence why they go wild with certain abilities then retcon or water them down later. FS is a textbook example.

Someone with FS the way it was explained should never be tagged or even hit really yet all we've seen from Luffy in the raid is get bombed, tagged, hit and whatsnot.

FS arguments die the moment Apoo nuked Luffy and he passed out for a few seconds. Those arguments died when he got caught by Ulti. Them arguments died when BM was about to fry him with her homie if not for Zoro. They died when Kaido was about to club him if not for Law saving him. And Luffy will continue to get himself in scenarios where he'd need to be saved or just get hit. And we're talking about a stronger version of Luffy than the one in this match up.

When you're sitting up there on that roof contending against 2 Yonkous, fighting them, have enough speed and reactions to counter their attacks to save your captain a few times from getting hit by incoming Yonkous attacks, no one should ever question said character if they'd ever be able to deal with Luffy's speed. There are levels to this.

If you can deal with Yonkous movements in a serious fight, Luffy's speed isn't an argument anymore. It's as simple as that.

Zoro is simply too lethal for Luffy to spam his snaky attacks at him. If Cracker could almost cut through them then Zoro chops them clean.

Zoro is actually a *VERY BAD* match up for Luffy. 

Imagine Luffy spamming his hundreds of meters stretching arms against someone with the lethality of Enma.  

The smartest thing Oda has ever done is pit all strong swordmen in the manga against Zoro, that way he doesn't have to think of how Luffy end his fights without losing limbs.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Ekkologix (Feb 27, 2021)

geezuz this made it to 23 pages

just here to say luffy practically lost to kaido rn since his G4 is over and zoro had to bail him out

get over it guys, luffy CANNOT beat zoro with 1 round of G4, and zoro didn't even use asura yet

zoro wins this one extreme diff. he has to just survive that one round of g4 and its won

yea zoro will be beaten to a pulp in the process but his endurance is high enough, and once luffy's g4 ends, zoro can just throw a sword at him or smthing lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Feb 28, 2021)

Go D. Usopp said:


> geezuz this made it to 23 pages
> 
> just here to say luffy practically lost to kaido rn since his G4 is over and zoro had to bail him out
> 
> ...


What the fuck are you talking about?

Zoro doesn’t have anything close to Kaidous dura and endurance, he was just KOd By Killer not too long ago.

Zoro isn’t surviving a round with G4 luffy, he is weaker/ slower/ has worst Haki feats/ has less AP, so in what world is Zoro surviving a round with Luffy?


no he doesn’t/ he needs to beat Luffy not just survive one round lol. Luffy is fine keeping up with Kata in his base but somehow he can’t with Zoro?
You’ve lost your damn mind but given you think F6 and SN are the same, I wouldn’t expect much better from you.

Reactions: Like 2


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## convict (Feb 28, 2021)

Haven’t looked at this thread in a while but Zoro really turned it around  

Glad people are coming to their senses

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ekkologix (Feb 28, 2021)

Beast said:


> What the fuck are you talking about?
> 
> Zoro doesn’t have anything close to Kaidous dura and endurance, he was just KOd By Killer not too long ago.
> 
> ...


i never implied zoor has kadio's lvl of endurance

i clearly said zoro will be heavily damaged after 1 round of G4, but he can survive it, just like doffy kata cracker did

thats when he kills luffy

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Feb 28, 2021)

Go D. Usopp said:


> i never implied zoor has kadio's lvl of endurance
> 
> i clearly said zoro will be heavily damaged after 1 round of G4, but he can survive it, just like doffy kata cracker did
> 
> thats when he kills luffy


So now... he has more dura and endurance then DD/ Crackers biscuits and kata.

stop chatting out your ass bruh, Zoro doesn’t have the dura or endurance feats to tank multiple G4 hits even the basic ones without getting badly hurt, King Kong gun would kill him and destroyed him and everything he is standing on.

like Cracker killed Luffy or how Kata did right? Ooh wait... that didn’t happen. 
luffy can still use his G2 and G3 to keep Zoro at bay if it came to that.

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheWiggian (Feb 28, 2021)

Zoro leading this  

But it's understandable, he looks more impressive than even his captain currently

Reactions: Like 2


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 28, 2021)

As Luffy's #2, It would actually be kinda sad if Zoro can't keep up with the Luffy from one major power up ago. I guess we'll see after they show how they each deal with Hybrid Kaidou's speed.


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## Shunsuiju (Feb 28, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> It might not be your point but it is even a bonus on top of capable of tanking Yonko attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i cant believe how long ive just had to scroll

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Beast (Feb 28, 2021)

To think BM would be used as a reference of speed.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (Feb 28, 2021)

Beast said:


> To think BM would be used as a reference of speed.


She's likely just as fast as Kaido and blitzed Queen.


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## Beast (Feb 28, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> She's likely just as fast as Kaido and blitzed Queen.


She’s not as fast as Kaidou and she didn’t blitz Queen... so what other fanfic do we have?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Feb 28, 2021)

Beast said:


> She’s not as fast as Kaidou and she didn’t blitz Queen... so what other fanfic do we have?


 this isnot worth the effort

Reactions: Funny 2


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Feb 28, 2021)

Beast said:


> So now... he has more dura and endurance then DD/ Crackers biscuits and kata.
> 
> stop chatting out your ass bruh, Zoro doesn’t have the dura or endurance feats to tank multiple G4 hits even the basic ones without getting badly hurt, King Kong gun would kill him and destroyed him and everything he is standing on.
> 
> ...


Wano zoro has better endurance than the antagonist from 2 arcs ago yes. Your better means of attack would be to say this Luffy is much stronger than dr luffy

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClannadFan (Feb 28, 2021)

Beast said:


> She’s not as fast as Kaidou and she didn’t blitz Queen... so what other fanfic do we have?


There's a smart way to argue for Luffy, and then there's your way. 

Both ways are wrong because Zoro wins. Glad the polls finally making sense now.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Ren. (Feb 28, 2021)

convict said:


> Glad people are coming to their senses


That  means nothing, I could change this within a day.

But Kinjin would complain 

If I have used the fact that it was all the time before for Luffy, but that is a popularity thing you 3 would say.


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## convict (Feb 28, 2021)

Bragging about tampering an online poll of two manga characters isn’t a good look

Reactions: Like 1 | Creative 1


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## Ren. (Feb 28, 2021)

Bragging about  a poll meaning something when it is the way you want it, and not before,  is not a good look also, the same way you said that  I am not saying he is stronger but let me say he is stronger.


And that was for Kinjin with the context he knows. Had double meaning the same as you have double standards for pretty much anything related to your avy.

Trying to pass the popularity contest when again this is a non open pool to see is well in the standard of the fandom.


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## Ren. (Feb 28, 2021)

Beast said:


> To think BM would be used as a reference of speed.


She is a meme when they use her vs Admirals to wank Admirals, now she is fast when we can use her to wank Zoro.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Feb 28, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> this isnot worth the effort


then you went and looked for emote and wrote some shit.


truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Wano zoro has better endurance than the antagonist from 2 arcs ago yes. Your better means of attack would be to say this Luffy is much stronger than dr luffy


Hahah if only it worked like that, luffy would be stronger then all 3 admirals.
You clown come up with something that makes sense.


ClannadFan said:


> There's a smart way to argue for Luffy, and then there's your way.
> 
> Both ways are wrong because Zoro wins. Glad the polls finally making sense now.


i did some research and seems like the point of your argument is about the value of Zero. You should clap for yourself.


lol in the sub forum known for the great Zorofangirl and multiple Zorotard dupes, the polls is the only thing that keeps you guys afloat considering winning an actual debate is practically impossible with your hopes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Feb 28, 2021)

Beast said:


> lol in the sub forum known for the great Zorofangirl and multiple Zorotard dupes, the polls is the only thing that keeps you guys afloat considering winning an actual debate is practically impossible with your hopes.


The pool was in favor of Luffy for 3 weeks ... no one said nothing.



Now they started adding votes from dupes to a non visible pool.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Mar 1, 2021)

In a subforum where about 1/3 to 1/2 are Zoro fans,  I'm surprised the poll results ended up being this close VS a Luffy significantly weaker than his current form. A poll that was anonymous and prone to dupe votes no less.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> In a subforum where about 1/3 to 1/2 are Zoro fans,  I'm surprised the poll results ended up being this close VS a Luffy significantly weaker than his current form. A poll that was anonymous and prone to dupe votes no less.


Well thank me for trying to even argue.

After I stopped doing that they used their dupes to make themselves happy.

This is funny in a way, I got what I wanted, no reason what so ever no arguments and the leaders are saying, finally justice we could vote with our dupes.


Heart Over Blade said:


> A poll that was anonymous and prone to dupe votes no less.


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

So “It was rigged!” then.

Classy and expected

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Corax (Mar 1, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> There's a smart way to argue for Luffy, and then there's your way.
> 
> Both ways are wrong because Zoro wins. Glad the polls finally making sense now.


This makes sense because Luffy's number 2 should be stronger than himself from almost 2 arcs ago. Because if not his crew would be an utter trash.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

No it means nothing.

Rigged or not, it means Z boys voted for crap like usual and we already know they have a lot of dupes.

But again using hidden pool votes in a sub section infested with dupes and fan boys to make a point when the pool was infested with those dupes after 3 weeks and not before.


That is classy and predictable.

We can look at the arguments and we can see the same reductom at imbecilite, he must be, not he is because of feasts.

Why the fuck we even have an arena if all that we use is a he must be because we say so.

I mean look at the last 2 pages, finally the votes showed we are right, it makes sense because he is the #2. 


Again arena rules in anyplace not OL Z boys fandoms, feats first second and third place.


This is circular reasoning, he must be because he never goes all out when he has no feats, he must be because he is #2 when he has feats and those do not show superiority . That is not how an arena debate is done anywhere else.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

Corax said:


> This makes sense because Luffy's number 2 should be stronger than himself from almost 2 arcs ago. Because if not his crew would be an utter trash.



Truly baffling how geniuses don’t get this. Oda is showing Franky who had Doffy executive level feats in Dressrosa to YC4 level here. Sanji from getting brutally abused by Doffy and leg cracked by Vergo to likely Queen level.

And Zoro who is going to land a major blow to Kaido and gain significant feats in an arc that he has had the most spotlight after Luffy - isn’t going to be stronger than the much weaker version of Luffy than current who got one shotted. After dedicated training no less.

These candies are masochists.

Reactions: Like 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

Wait we are not even using the current Zoro but future end Wano feats that do not exist... damn so this was not even about current Zoro but future unicorn Zoro.

@Beast  why is this thread even still open if this is again the hypothetical all out Zoro that we never saw but will see because they say so.

You guys don't even know how do debate.

Arena is not the theory section, it debates current shown feats vs current shown feats not unicorns.

@Kinjin  again I am asking is this current Zoro vs pre Udon Luffy or we are using end of Wano Zoro?

If so then close this thread.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

What are you on about? Of course we are using current Zoro, post Enma training who is facing Kaido right now. It says as much in the thread.

We can theorize how strong an individual is going all out if he has enough feats.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Beast (Mar 1, 2021)

I was just about to say lol.
At least wait for the arc to end because as far as feats are concerned, Zoro isn’t winning this because he reacted to BM and hit Laidou.

shit my auto correct really changes it to Laido naturally


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

No, you are not.
If you did that you would use his current feats not unicorns.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

Beast said:


> I was just about to say lol.
> At least wait for the arc to end because as far as feats are concerned, Zoro isn’t winning this because he reacted to BM and hit Laidou.
> 
> shit my auto correct really changes it to Laido naturally


They are even lying to my face, of course it is about current Zoro then a post before he was talking about how Zoro will do so much more and that will prove his point.


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

Ok so basically what I am getting is that you guys actually may agree that current all-out Zoro beats pre-udon Luffy

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

convict said:


> We can theorize how strong an individual is going all out if he has enough feats.


No you can't.

I could say that Luffy used KKG gatlling for 30m on Zoro and he kills him.

Learn the basic of an Arena debate.



convict said:


> that current all-out Zoro beats pre-udon Luffy


All Zoro is an unicorn do you even understand what feats are?


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## Beast (Mar 1, 2021)

convict said:


> Ok so basically what I am getting is that you guys actually may agree that current all-out Zoro beats Luffy


Current all out Zoro doesn’t exist body.
Guess why?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

Beast said:


> Current all out Zoro doesn’t exist body.
> Guess why?


Again he said we can theorized, how many times did I say this is the Arena and not the theory section?


convict said:


> We can theorize


NO.

Arena section, not the theory section.


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

In fact I have a theory myself, G4 is unlimited, only Advance COA now has a time limit so Zoro will face an unlimited KKG gattling because we can theorize.




Again close the thread if you guys insist on non feats to be used.

Reactions: GODA 1


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

Such stupidity.

Sengoku's best feat is taking on pre-skip teach and co. I guess he would lose to Luffy as well because he lacks the feats.

I supervised this very battledome for a while and moderated who does and doesn't get allowed to be discussed. A character needs feats to be allowed discussion in the battledome. But once a character has feats it is absolutely no problem to theorize how strong an individual can be unless specified that is not allowed.

Otherwise current Luffy beats old Rayleigh too and easily at that as Rayleigh fought Kizaru for a few minutes and that is all he has to show. Using common sense is a thing.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

Such deflection.

You being a mod means nothing. Calling authority as validity for an arguments is in the same real as using the pool to validate something.
You are not even close to neutrality in the first place.

No, that is what you think an Arena should be, look outside OL for once, and see how arenas are moderated.

And keep the name callings to yourself.



convict said:


> But once a character has feats it is absolutely no problem to theorize how strong an individual can be unless specified


Then you did a bad moderation if you allowed speculation into a vs when the characters has shown feats.

If you want to do an End of Wano Zoro then do that outside the Arena as End of Wano Zoro does not exist currently.

Asura is not a no limit fallacy for you to use.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Such deflection.
> 
> You being a mod means nothing.
> 
> ...



You don't get to define how all battledomes function fortunately. Each one has a different set of rules. I am specifically talking about the OL.

You are as good as blind if you don't think people making educated guesses on how strong individuals are based on feats hasn't been done continuously since the battledome's inception.

Absolutely hilarious that you all agree that current Zoro going all-out wins but are hiding behind Oda simply moving away from their fight for a bit. In time I guess.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

convict said:


> You don't get to define how all battledomes function. Each one has a different set of rules. I am specifically talking about the OL.


And I am saying that OL is from the start of the thread one of the worst arenas in NF. And you do not decide or any mod how an arena should be done PERIOD.

You are just adding validity to what I said.

If you think we can add hypotheticals and theories to a vs then we are not even debating at all, we are expressing feelings about how each views each characters based on preferences.

If you do that then pre Udon Luffy has unlimited G4 usage because I theorized it and when it will happen in the future I will use that to validate my current claim.

In fact he could used KKG gatlings because he will use it in the future.


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

> *If you think we can add hypotheticals* and theories to a vs then we are not even debating at all, we are expressing feelings about how each views each characters based on preferences.


I don't think this. I know it for a fact.

Look at all the threads of Garp vs or Rayleigh vs etc.

You think people are just using the 2-3 feats these individuals have shown so far? Of course not. They use these feats and portrayal to estimate overall strength. It is called using your mind.

Anyway this is besides the point so I will stop but I am glad that even you agree that current Zoro going all out wins.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Mar 1, 2021)

The OP says current Zoro... Current Zoro has not gone ‘all out’ and the only things that have changed is haki burst from Enma/ reacting to BM and hitting/ hurting Kaidou... that really isn’t enough considering that Luffy before this arc started could take his whole crew from the feats... I think there was a thread even.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

convict said:


> I don't think this. I know it for a fact.


A fact that didn't happen is not a fact.

Again I can use what G4 can do in the future and claim he can do it now.

So Luffy used KKG Gatling until Zoro dies.



ice demon slayer said:


> Current Zoro with Enma


@convict


That means current feats Zoro for an Arena debate.



convict said:


> you agree that current Zoro going all out wins.


No I agree that KKG Gatling Luffy wins because he had unlimited G4 and that is a fact.


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

> Again I can use what G4 can do in the future and claim he can do it now.



If you believe whatever future feat this is can be performed by current Luffy based on what we know of him and can defend your thought process then that is the spirit go for it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

convict said:


> If you believe whatever future feat this is can be performed by current Luffy based on what we know of him and can defend your thought process then that is the spirit go for it.


So Luffy wins because he can use KKG Gatling infinitely based on me.
And based on FS that can tag TB and Zoro missing a giant Dragon this is a neg diff.

And this thread just confirmed that it was thrash from the inception.


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

Ren. said:


> So Luffy wins because he can use KKG gattling infinitely based on me.



I mean, I am not surprised you would think he has infinite KKG gattling capacity when he is being used as a dried out bagpack right now.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

That is Advance COA Luffy.

My hypothetical Luffy has infinite G4 usage and KKG gattling.

/thread.

Don't ever try to use reason when you can't grasp basic concepts like respecting what the OP stated, Current Zoro.



ice demon slayer said:


> Current Zoro

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

Beast said:


> Current Zoro has not gone ‘all out’ and the only things that have changed is haki burst from Enma/ reacting to BM and hitting/ hurting Kaidou...


If we can't even respect this.
Then this thread is in the wrong section.

And you don't even need a infinite KKG gattling but I guess you also think Zoro can last 10m of KKG Gatling  

You don't even respect the other people that post here in the Arena with saying we can use non feats to say he wins.


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

Because current Zoro has not gone all out yet *doesn't mean he lacks the capacity to do so.

Luffy lacks the capacity to have infinite KKG* as we have seen him Hakied out in front of us. 

That is why your inane analogy falls so flat.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

Again FI Luffy could have used KKG.

We still don't use that for FI Luffy.

If Luffy uses KKG Gatling we don't use that for his FI peak.

My analogy was for you someone that moderated the arena to understand what an Arena debate is.

Your logic is non existent as you seam to use All out Zoro when Zoro got a PU and he is close to Luffy as feats to debate him. Also you bring Garp a top top tier to say but we use that for him, that is disingenuous at best.

So for you Unicorn Zoro is to be used in the Arena making all the dabates toxic.


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## convict (Mar 1, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Again FI Luffy could have used KKG.
> 
> We still don't use that for FI Luffy.
> 
> ...



Luffy learned G4/KKG during the timeskip so using it for FI Luffy is fair game (granted it might not have as much power as the Dressrosa version as Luffy gets stronger every arc but the actual move was in his arsenal). 

And again. Different battledomes have different rules. They aren't all the same.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

No Arenas have one very strict rule, Feats are the main drive of debates.

For very good reason. For the debates to be from equal stand points.

And I am saying that KKG Gatling with G2 on top is his peak in FI because he has a Gatling, he can use that in G4, he can also stack gears.

So yeah the fight will start with KKG Gatling + G2 + FS  from the start with this current Zoro and that will last the maximum amount he has shown 30m.

Zoro is defeated.

Do I need to show if he can use all of those combined for 30m, NO, in this thread as you specified.

I think you were used to use the feat called all out Zoro is always close to current Luffy(this is the only point given by you in this thread), do that in the ODB and you would be laughter at.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

@Beast  at least we found we are not debating current Zoro vs pre Udon Luffy.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Mar 1, 2021)

Ren. said:


> @Beast  at least we found we are not debating current Zoro vs pre Udon Luffy.


25 pages for nothing

Reactions: Agree 1


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## fenaker (Mar 1, 2021)

*Zoro is fighting 2 yonko and made them both shitless and is protecting a shit captain with him and : 

- Luffy using Gear 4th against Kaido until he drained his Haki >>>> Kaido still continued to use his Dragon Form and used an attack that called disaster by Kid + Zoro himself 

- Zoro challenged Kaido tatsumaki by another one and made him bleeding in three consecutive panels and vomited Luffy out after he chomped him >>> Kaido used another stronger tatsumaki but he failed to do a thing to Zoro who is protecting a shit captain with him and used / forced to use hybrid form 

Current Zoro > Post udon Luffy >= Shusui Zoro >= post WCI Gear 4th Luffy *

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## ClannadFan (Mar 1, 2021)

Idk why Future Zoro keeps getting brought up, when CURRENT Zoro, with just his feats so far on the rooftop are enough for Pre Udon Luffy. If we want to use Future/End of Wano Zoro, then this can't even be a debate. It's not close lmao.

CURRENT Zoro wins with around extreme/high diff.

Future/Hypothetical Zoro mid diffs.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | GODA 1


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## maupp (Mar 1, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Idk why Future Zoro keeps getting brought up, when CURRENT Zoro, with just his feats so far on the rooftop are enough for Pre Udon Luffy. If we want to use Future/End of Wano Zoro, then this can't even be a debate. It's not close lmao.
> 
> CURRENT Zoro wins with around extreme/high diff.
> 
> *Future/Hypothetical Zoro mid diffs.*


Nah, Yonkou level characters have shown to be able to low diff pre Udon Luffy or other commanders level characters. We've seen Kaido one shot Luffy, we've seen BM physically brutalize Queen. 

EoS Zoro is guaranteed to be stronger than Shanks. That level should wash a commander level character in Pre Udon Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClannadFan (Mar 1, 2021)

maupp said:


> Nah, Yonkou level characters have shown to be able to low diff pre Udon Luffy or other commanders level characters. We've seen Kaido one shot Luffy, we've seen BM physically brutalize Queen.
> 
> EoS Zoro is guaranteed to be stronger than Shanks. That level should wash a commander level character in Pre Udon Luffy.


By future I mean End of Wano. Ofc EoS Zoro destroys Pre Udon Luffy lol


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## TheWiggian (Mar 1, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> By future I mean End of Wano. Ofc EoS Zoro destroys Pre Udon Luffy lol



Yea end of Wano Zoro would probably 1 shot pre Udon Luffy with that seppuku knife with no hilt.

Reactions: Like 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Mar 1, 2021)

Beast said:


> then you went and looked for emote and wrote some shit.
> 
> Hahah if only it worked like that, luffy would be stronger then all 3 admirals.
> You clown come up with something that makes sense.
> ...


The admirals weren’t arc antagonists


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 1, 2021)

Ren. said:


> @Beast  at least we found we are not debating current Zoro vs pre Udon Luffy.





Beast said:


> 25 pages for nothing


Even using purely Zoro’s current feats, which I did, leads to the inevitable conclusion that Luffy loses embarrassingly

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Even using purely Zoro’s current feats, which I did, leads to the inevitable conclusion that Luffy loses embarrassingly


Sure let's go to the ODB where you will lose by calcs.

Guys if you can't do an Arena debate stop quoting me, this is not worth the hustle.

If you can't have panels for what you say then don't bother replying.

I am not here to counter hypotheticals and I feel he is stronger because I love X character.



ClannadFan said:


> with just his feats so far on the rooftop are enough for Pre Udon Luffy.


They are no feats that prove that.

Now again you argument this with common sense and what ifs.




You guys are contradicting your own freaking arguments.

Reread our posts.


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

Hero Link said:


> Okay?
> It's nice that he can block or dodge it but that was not my point.
> 
> Yet again, you claimed that Zoro won't be taken down by Bound Man's entire skillset since he managed to take Big Mom's thunder attack, although that is damn impressive as well - for example, Judge was defeated by a single thunder attack - you ignored the fact that all supernovas took those thunder attacks here.
> ...


Good read from both.


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 1, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Sure let's go to the ODB where you will lose by calcs.
> 
> Guys if you can't do an Arena debate stop quoting me, this is not worth the hustle.


You really bringing up calcs? Both Zoro and Luffy scale to the same stuff in obd terms.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> You really bringing up calcs? Both Zoro and Luffy scale to the same stuff in obd terms.


No.

You guys think they were the same in Alabasta when debating, Luffy was at low town level AP wise and Zoro at large building.
In all stats bar AP Zoro does not scale to Luffy with his current feats.

I keep seeing FS downplayed and AP wanked for Zoro when he did not land anything of worth either he can't connet that much AP or his AP can not be measured.

Speed wise he scales to base Luffy in mobility for 932 vs Dragon Kaido.

Zoro's supposed Kaido destroying attack did not land so we can't scale that etc.

I am done.
@Hero Link  showed what an actual debate can be so did @TheWiggian

The only disingenuous move is to downplay even current FS feats but he got tagged, yes by 2 Yonko trying to kill him, how does that stack to vs Zoro is well not for me be argue.


FS is not omnipotent but saying that he need to never be damaged by 2 Yonko so he can dodge Zoro enough to win means now Zoro has more pressure that 2 Yonko, , that was most of the argumentation from @Hero Link

Now the Luffy does not have enough AP, first use of G4 in DressRosa after so many hours of fighting has KKG that >>> Aything Zoro showed bar the new Enma attacks that did not land by calcs again.


Saying that one part of BM elemental atack ~ KKG is disingenuous at best as BM herself used COA for defending again a regular Kong Gun and the prof of that attack taking anyone down is Zero, hell not even damaging them enough, all 5 none taken out or visible damaged.

Same tactic, downplay Luffy and what ever Zoro did is now better, how exactly by just saying.

Reju was attacked with an elemental attack was not done, Sanji and Luffy countered and elemental attack were not done, and those were BM punch infused elemental attacks so her stronger offensive moves.

Now Luffy just tanked an elemental attack, should I say he now takes minimal damage from Zoro, wait no Zoro has AP but he can't land with that AP ...


Stop confusing Hype with feats and stop using but he didn't use Asura or this or that, this is what he did do in context of what other did not what he will do and what I expect him to do.

O and Luffy's stamina, yea again does Zoro stand a chance after taking that many attacks including KKG, does he not take anything from G3, o wait G4 does minimal damage to Zoro so g3 is nothing while he has more pressure that 2 yonko vs FS.


etc


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## Spiegel (Mar 1, 2021)

Tbh, it can go either way.

Zoro has the power to take down Luffy in one strike. YES ONE STRIKE. IF. It lands. And it's a very very big if. Luffy should have the ability to dodge all of Zoro's strikes.

But Luffy is also a close/mid range fighter. He will have to be careful fighting Zoro while he's in range. There's really no clashing his fist with Zoro's sword on multiple occasions.

Both Luffy and Zoro have similar mindsets when it comes to fighting. They'll give up limbs just to defeat their opponent.

So, I could see Luffy tanking a strike to finish off Zoro if he shifts so Zoro's strike hits him somewhere less lethal.
And I could also see Zoro tanking a barrage just so he can strike Luffy with an undodgeable attack.

With the current rules, Zoro should be able to tank as much damage as Katakuri imo. I can't imagine Zoro not finding a way to strike Luffy within that time period.


In short, if Zoro lands an attack, he wins. If he doesn't, Luffy wins. I'd give the slight edge to Zoro because his Ap should be a level above Luffy's and I think he'd be able to get at least one strike in on him.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ren. (Mar 1, 2021)

Spiegel said:


> In short, if Zoro lands an attack, he wins. If he doesn't, Luffy wins. I'd give the slight edge to Zoro because his Ap should be a level above Luffy's and I think he'd be able to get at least one strike in on him.





Spiegel said:


> Zoro has the power to take down Luffy in one strike. YES ONE STRIKE. IF. It lands. And it's a very very big if. Luffy should have the ability to dodge all of Zoro's strikes.


I agree.

The only specification is if he lands that attack that he missed on Kaido, random attacks are not finishing Luffy even with Enma.



Spiegel said:


> So, I could see Luffy tanking a strike to finish off Zoro if he shifts so Zoro's strike hits him somewhere less lethal.
> And I could also see Zoro tanking a barrage just so he can strike Luffy with an undodgeable attack.



Aka this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Mar 2, 2021)

And stop bringing Asura crap, Zoro can't even control one Enma you guys think he can control 2 illusions of this sword.

This is as fiction as KKG Gatling from now.

and Enma Zoro >> Asura non Enma Zoro that is feetless. 

This can change by Zoro getting more feats but no we need to wank him now


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## Spiegel (Mar 2, 2021)

Ren. said:


> And stop brining Asura crap, Zoro can't even control one Enma you guys think he can control 3 illusions of this sword.
> 
> This is as fiction as KKG Gatling from now.
> 
> ...


Did you really compare KKG gatling to Asura? Something that we know for sure Zoro has?

I can tell you feel threatened by the grandmaster's greatness. The stench of agenda pushing is strong within you.

I wanted to be objective but..

Asura Mode Zoro gives him 360 Vision. Luffy's Future sight is therefore negated as a result. Grandmaster Low diffs.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Winner 2


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## Ren. (Mar 2, 2021)

Spiegel said:


> Did you really compare KKG gatling to Asura? Something that we know for sure Zoro has?
> 
> I can tell you feel threatened by the grandmaster's greatness. The stench of agenda pushing is strong within you.
> 
> ...


Yes KKG gattling

If Luffy has a gattling of KKG, then it is game over, Enma or not he is not getting up after that.

I said KKG Gatling or Asura with Enma when Enma is already hard to control.

If you think Asura can do shit vs a Gatling of KKGs then that is your problem, Enma or not btw.


Spiegel said:


> Asura Mode Zoro gives him 360 Vision.


Yes because ilusionary heads now are a counter to future seeing.


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## Ren. (Mar 2, 2021)

Spiegel said:


> The stench of agenda pushing is strong within you.





Spiegel said:


> I wanted to be objective but..


Stop BS me about objectivity in this thread, I am not in kindergarten.


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## Jo Ndule (Mar 2, 2021)

Enma
Trashma

Doesn't matter if you don't connect much

Luffy will be dancing around his slashes like he did vs Posthawk

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Mar 2, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Even using purely Zoro’s current feats, which I did, leads to the inevitable conclusion that Luffy loses embarrassingly


Except it doesn’t the one the world of OPx maybe the two piece section might be different.

Zoro one shot Luffy

Reactions: Like 1


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## fenaker (Mar 2, 2021)

Ren. said:


> And stop bringing Asura crap, Zoro can't even control one Enma you guys think he can control 2 illusions of this sword.
> 
> This is as fiction as KKG Gatling from now.
> 
> ...


- What ? you compare something we didn't see from Luffy to Asura which appeared 2 times ( kaku - pacifista ) and we know its *Existence*
- What ? we don't even know the scale of Asura with shusui and you say enma Zoro is stronger 
- It's like comparing shusui Zoro to Asura Zoro with yubashiri 

Shusui Zoro can make a hole in a building with 108 pound canon meanwhile Zoro turned a massive slash from Kaku far stronger than the one that could  cut through the walls of the Tower of Justice in all directions into mist and one shotted him ( knocked him out from hybrid form to human form ) 

- until we see ur so called KKG , don't compare what we know it exists to what is considered to be a headcanon

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## fenaker (Mar 2, 2021)

Beast said:


> Except it doesn’t the one the world of OPx maybe the two piece section might be different.
> 
> Zoro one shot Luffy


mr captain is an hindrance from the start to the time being so much for being a better fighter, 
now let's see roof top battle scores :

Reactions: Funny 5 | Creative 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## CatTankIsNotAmused (Mar 2, 2021)

Doubt rooftop score comparison is a good idea when Zoro is at best #2nd in damage dealt and Yonkou still consider Luffy the bigger threat. Which is evident by their continual focus on him, comparison to pirate legends, and their reaction to how ineffective their attempts have been in dealing with G4.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Mar 3, 2021)

Beast said:


> Except it doesn’t the one the world of OPx maybe the two piece section might be different.
> 
> Zoro one shot Luffy


Heard it here first.

Source: Two piece.


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