# Ace vs. Vista



## 2Broken (Jan 8, 2014)

People always say Vista is significantly stronger than Ace. I think it is because Vista fought Mihawk, but I sincerely don't see how just sparing with Mihawk makes Vista > Ace hence the thread.

Location: Banaro Island

Mindset: IC, but trying to kill

Starting Distance: 20 meters.

Knowledge: Manga

Restrictions: None

Who wins this fight?


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

Vista high diff.


----------



## 2Broken (Jan 8, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Vista high diff.



But why though?


----------



## Shanks (Jan 8, 2014)

Ace is really under rate around here.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

He has better portrayal. Fighting a chilled Mihawk isn't that great but it's better than getting beat by Teach. He was able to fight an admiral level fighter while Ace got raped by one.


----------



## 2Broken (Jan 8, 2014)

Sabo said:


> Ace is really under rate around here.



I know, but he has such great feats and hype that I just don't get it.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

Lol great feats. Hype is good. A feat is making entei. I still rate him above the current M3 until Luffy solos DD though.


----------



## Shanks (Jan 8, 2014)

Ace should have being able to defeat Yami teach if he was a little less cocky and think with his brains.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 8, 2014)

Would have, should have, could off. Ace is not good with decisions hence why he's dead now.


----------



## Rob (Jan 8, 2014)

Ace pushes Vista Mid diff at best. 

Sparing with a Yonkou level fighter definitely puts you above Ace


----------



## Orca (Jan 8, 2014)

I'd give it to ace very high diff.


----------



## tanman (Jan 8, 2014)

Vista, high diff. 
Why? You could probably fit all of Vista's panel time onto a single page.
Obviously, I'm just guessing.


----------



## Shanks (Jan 8, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Would have, should have, could off. Ace is not good with decisions hence why he's dead now.



Same reason why Vergo got 1-shot and the same people who continues to hype Vergo and down play Ace.


----------



## tanman (Jan 8, 2014)

Sabo said:


> Same reason why Vergo got 1-shot and the same people who continues to hype Vergo and down play Ace.



So many things wrong with this. 
1. Being "one-shotted" by Law's fruit is essentially inevitable if you're weaker than Law. No matter how much weaker.

2. That same swing cut a fucking mountain. Is that not relevant to you? Do you understand how few characters are more resilient than a mountain?

3.  "Continue to hype Vergo"? Seriously? The Vergo downplay on this forum has been massive. The same downplay applies for all vice admirals (except the Buster Call vice admirals for whatever reason).


----------



## Shanks (Jan 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> So many things wrong with this.
> 1. Being "one-shotted" by Law's fruit is essentially inevitable if you're weaker than Law. No matter how much weaker.
> 
> 2. That same swing cut a fucking mountain. Is that not relevant to you? Do you understand how few characters are more resilient than a mountain?
> ...



1. Not true. People on similar level or even weaker can dodge, block or use other ways to intercept the attack to not get 1-shot. For example, Pre-skip Luffy against Mihawk.

2. Why does this matter? Vergo obviously believe he can tank something of that caliber. 

3. Vergo gets down played by some people, but also hype by others (same with VAs), but the Ace down played is almost unanimous, yet they suffered exactly the same fate.


----------



## trance (Jan 8, 2014)

Vist mid-high difficulty. He's weaker than Mihawk but the fact he held out as long as he did indicates that he is just moderately weaker instead of being vastly weaker and should have stats enough to give an Admiral level fighter a somewhat decent fight.


----------



## Enel (Jan 9, 2014)

Vista high-diff I guess. Vista stalemated an admiral level-fighter, Ace died against one.


----------



## Ghost (Jan 9, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Sparing with a Yonkou level fighter definitely puts you above Ace



Fresh Ace could've done just well as against Aokiji as Vista did against Mihawk. 

Blood lust/Going for the kill Mihawk would defeat Vista as easily as Aokiji would defeat Ace.

Ace is a fast mainly mid range fighter and Vista is a slower(?) close range fighter.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

Vista wins.


----------



## trance (Jan 9, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Fresh Ace could've done just well as against Aokiji as Vista did against Mihawk.
> 
> Blood lust/Going for the kill Mihawk would defeat Vista as easily as Aokiji would defeat Ace.
> 
> *Ace is a fast mainly mid range fighter and Vista is a slower(?) close range fighter.*



Umm, what speed feats does Ace have over Vista?


----------



## November (Jan 9, 2014)

Vista is very popular in the battledome.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Jan 9, 2014)

Atleast 3 Aces are required to defeat Vista


----------



## Rob (Jan 9, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Fresh Ace could've done just well as against Aokiji as Vista did against Mihawk.
> 
> Blood lust/Going for the kill Mihawk would defeat Vista as easily as Aokiji would defeat Ace.
> 
> Ace is a fast mainly mid range fighter and Vista is a slower(?) close range fighter.



Yea, let's just assume that Vista is slower to suit your argument better 

And why would one of the Strongest Swordsmen we've seen up till' now be a Close-range fighter? 

I'm not sure if you've skipped all of One Piece since Skypiea (Which seems to be the case), but Zoro, Mihawk, Ryuma, and Kaku have shown to send out long-ranged slashes.


----------



## Lmao (Jan 9, 2014)

I love how people mention Ace lost to Blackbeard but no one ever seems to recall he countered Aokiji's Pheasant Peck just fine.

Vista is not mid/high diffing Ace.


----------



## Ghost (Jan 9, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Yea, let's just assume that Vista is slower to suit your argument better


Ace hasn't shown any impressive speed feats but at least he has some. I don't remember anything from Vista



> And why would one of the Strongest Swordsmen we've seen up till' now be a Close-range fighter?


Swordsmen tend to fight in close range...


> I'm not sure if you've skipped all of One Piece since Skypiea (Which seems to be the case), but Zoro, Mihawk, Ryuma, and Kaku have shown to send out long-ranged slashes.



Actual contact with sword >>> air slash. You need to be on Mihawk's level to damage a powerful logia like Ace with an air slash.


----------



## 2Broken (Jan 9, 2014)

I still don't know why people put so much into Vista sparing with Mihawk. Mihawk has never went all out and has even shown multiple times that he only uses the amount of power he deems necessary. Mihawk also has shown that he doesn't give a damn about listening to the WG's orders, so it's not like he would rush to kill Vista for their interests in the war. Mihawk  has a great respect for Vista as a swordsman and he surely didn't want to beat him any type of way because if he did he had a perfect  to do so.

The only thing the fight shows is that Mihawk couldn't fodderize Vista, but that should be expected based of Vista's standing in the Whitebeard pirates anyway.



Slenderman said:


> Lol great feats.



Yes, fighting a Warlord for 5 days straight as a rookie pirate, burning down half an island and casually countering an attack from an admiral are all amazing feats.

Ace's showing in my opinion is clearly superior to Vista's. Maybe people like Vista so much because of that stache.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

Considering Mihawk would beat Ace pretty easily, while it is already confirmed that he can't just throw Vista away like some fodder and won't have an easy time with him, I think it's obvious who the stronger of the two is.


----------



## 2Broken (Jan 9, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Considering Mihawk would beat Ace pretty easily, while it is already confirmed that he can't just throw Vista away like some fodder and won't have an easy time with him, I think it's obvious who the stronger of the two is.



Lol I like how you used "throw away like fodder" for Vista, "beat pretty easy" for Ace and then equated them. 

How about giving some evidence that Mihawk can throw away Ace like he is fodder or that he can't beat Vista easily.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

Ace lost to Blackbeard who in turn was smacked around like a child by Whitebeard with half his face gone. Whitebeard in that condition would die horribly against a Yonko level fighter. How about some evidence that Ace can impede Mihawk even briefly, let alone directly stop him from pursuing his one and only target in the war and force him into ceasefire after a full chapter of going toe to toe with him?


----------



## Ghost (Jan 9, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Considering Mihawk would beat Ace pretty easily, while it is already confirmed that he can't just throw Vista away like some fodder and won't have an easy time with him, I think it's obvious who the stronger of the two is.



And what is this based on? I believe that most here think that Ace only lost to Teach due to awful writing and he was nowhere near top condition against Aokiji and Akainu. Plus he was mad beans at Akainu which cost him his life.

I really can't believe that if Mihawk would've had the same mindset against Vista as Akainu had against Luffy and Ace, Vista would've lasted that long.


----------



## 2Broken (Jan 9, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Ace lost to Blackbeard who in turn was smacked around like a child by Whitebeard with half his face gone. Whitebeard in that condition would die horribly against a Yonko level fighter. How about some evidence that Ace can impede Mihawk even briefly, let alone directly stop him from pursuing his one and only target in the war and force him into ceasefire after a full chapter of going toe to toe with him?



Blackbeard wasn't just smacked around read this  and the few after it. Just to remind you are making an argument for Vista not Mihawk, so would Vista have done better than Teach in that situation? Also I will prove Ace can stall Mihawk by proving he is superior to Vista.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

> Blackbeard wasn't just smacked around read this panel and the few after it.



That panel features Teach warming up for the fight and trash-talking Edward. Okay. In the next one, where they actually started fighting, he managed to block one attack and then got trashed instantly afterwards.



> Just to remind you are making an argument for Vista not Mihawk, so would Vista have done better than Teach in that situation?



Of course he would've. Whitebeard at that point was not the strongest man or anywhere near it. He needed a sucker punch from behind to take out an admiral and still got griveously injured in the proccess. 10 minutes afterwards he was a dead man walking, and that's the version that Teach fought, and got destroyed by, whilst Vista legitimately occupied a full-power Yonko level fighter and the best swordsman in the world.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 9, 2014)

yami teach is not admiral lvl, ace pushes vista to mid diff and gets his head chopped off.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Jan 9, 2014)

Vista with high diff. I'm honestly giving it to him more because of the big experience advantage he has over Ace. 

Having said that, Ace is very underestimated around here. I guess it's because he lost so quickly to Akainu, but somehow people have amnesia and forget that he lost so fast because of the DF match-up. It's a fact specifically stated in the manga.

Otherwise just like Vista sparred a little with a yonkou lvl opponent, Ace did so with Aokiji. He was perfectly capable of holding out for a few moments with such an adversary.


----------



## Sasuke (Jan 9, 2014)

Ace high diff. His clash against a _confirmed_ top tier like Aokiji is more impressive than Vista briefly sparring with Mihawk in the same chapter that Luffy was dodging his attacks. Vista has no feats besides that.


----------



## BlueDemon (Jan 9, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> Ace extreme diff. His clash against a _confirmed_ top tier like Aokiji is more impressive than Vista briefly sparring with Mihawk in the same chapter that Luffy was dodging his attacks. Vista has no feats besides that.



Two problems with that:
1) That was a small scuffle and you could argue the nature of their DFs allowed for that to happen.
2) The clash between Mihawk and Vista wasn't much longer, but Mihawk's acknowledgement should be enough. And you trying to downplay Mihawk with saying that Luffy dodged his attacks is just absurd. Mihawk could have killed him on the spot if he had wanted to, period.

That said, I'd say that Vista wins with mid-diff or maybe higher.


----------



## Orca (Jan 9, 2014)

> That was a small scuffle and you could argue the nature of their DFs allowed for that to happen.



It was not as simple as a "small scuffle." The whole reason of the war "Ace" was trying to escape. An admiral came in and tried to stop him and failed to do so. And didn't bother to follow up with another attack. 

Plus there were no disadvantages as far as the nature of the df is concerned. Neither was it implied anywhere that Ace had a advantage over kuzan.


----------



## Lmao (Jan 9, 2014)

What do you mean the nature of their DFs allowed for that to happen? Aokiji's ice was an equal match for ten whole days against a character whose abilities are superior to Ace's, lava > fire. He countered  Aokiji's Pheasant Peck because he was strong enough to do so.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> Ace high diff. His clash against a _confirmed_ top tier like Aokiji is more impressive than Vista briefly sparring with Mihawk in the same chapter that Luffy was dodging his attacks. Vista has no feats besides that.



1) Mihawk is on par with an Emperor and a confirmed top tier, likely stronger than Aokiji.
2) Ace and Aokiji only had a brief exchange, Mihawk and Vista clashed for a full chapter.


----------



## Typhon (Jan 9, 2014)

While I agree that Vista edges out Ace, the "He took on Mihawk for entire chapter" or "he stalemated" is getting real old. Everyone always conveniently forgets to say Mihawk was tailing Luffy the entire time and even took his eyes off Vista. Look what happened to anyone else that did that.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

Yeah, he was tailing Luffy whom Vista directly stopped him from pursuing. Yet instead of defeating him in the entire chapter they fought, and continuing his chase, he instead requested to halt their match. 

And him glancing at Luffy in one instance is indicative of absolutely nothing.


----------



## Typhon (Jan 9, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Yeah, he was tailing Luffy whom Vista directly stopped him from pursuing. Yet instead of defeating him in the entire chapter they fought, and continuing his chase, he instead requested to halt their match.
> 
> And him glancing at Luffy in one instance is indicative of absolutely nothing.



That doesn't imply some type of equality like you guys make it out to be. Obviously Vista isn't so weak to Mihawk that he could just cast him aside. 

What do you mean it's indicative of nothing? In a fight, you don't just takes your eyes off someone and go unscathe unless you are above them. (I swear I've said this before)


----------



## Lmao (Jan 9, 2014)

Wise words.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 9, 2014)

2Broken said:


> I still don't know why people put so much into Vista sparing with Mihawk. Mihawk has never went all out and has even shown multiple times that he only uses the amount of power he deems necessary. Mihawk also has shown that he doesn't give a damn about listening to the WG's orders, so it's not like he would rush to kill Vista for their interests in the war. Mihawk  has a great respect for Vista as a swordsman and he surely didn't want to beat him any type of way because if he did he had a perfect  to do so.
> 
> The only thing the fight shows is that Mihawk couldn't fodderize Vista, but that should be expected based of Vista's standing in the Whitebeard pirates anyway.
> 
> ...



Warlord's vary in strength beating Croc isn't the same as doing so to Mihawk. Also I don't remember the manga saying that Banaro island was destroyed. Aokiji was casual to. It was long ranged and Ace has an elemental advantage. If he couldn't at least do that. It's embarrassing.


----------



## Rob (Jan 9, 2014)

@Seikyou


> Ace hasn't shown any impressive speed feats but at least he has some. I don't remember anything from Vista


Keeping up with Mihawk =/= faster than Ace? 


> Swordsmen tend to fight in close range...


Not always. 


> Actual contact with sword >>> air slash. You need to be on Mihawk's level to damage a powerful logia like Ace with an air slash


So, because you think so, it has to be true? You're just making shit up... 
Going with your logic, Zoro could not harm Ace at all if he sent flying attacks at him


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 9, 2014)

Could go either way, leaning towards Vista though.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

> That doesn't imply some type of equality like you guys make it out to be. Obviously Vista isn't so weak to Mihawk that he could just cast him aside.



Wait who said they're equal? Vista is getting mid-diffed, and pushing a Yonko level fighter that far is enough for me to confidently say that he would rock Ace into next week.



> In a fight, you don't just takes your eyes off someone and go unscathe unless you are above them.



Rayleigh looked away when fighting Kizaru. Zoro glanced away when fighting Kaku. Law was talking on a goddamn phone while successfully fending off both Doflamingo and Fujitora. Mihawk did not turn around and lose the focus on a fight, nor did he start running in the opposite direction giving Vista a free hit in. _He glanced away for one second_.


----------



## Rob (Jan 9, 2014)

How people can truly believe that Ace could push Vista to High diff is truly mind-boggling.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

Not sure if you're making fun of dat Vista hype or are actually serious


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 9, 2014)

vista low-diff.


----------



## RF (Jan 9, 2014)

How about 3 Aces


----------



## Orca (Jan 9, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Warlord's vary in strength beating Croc isn't the same as doing so to Mihawk. Also I don't remember the manga saying that Banaro island was destroyed. Aokiji was casual to. It was long ranged and Ace has an elemental advantage. If he couldn't at least do that. It's embarrassing.



Ace has no elemental advantage. This ain't pokemon bro


----------



## Rob (Jan 9, 2014)

I was serious, Sakazuki.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 9, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> How about 3 Aces





Dark days for the OL.



RobLucciRapes said:


> I was serious, Sakazuki.



What happened to you man? Spent too much time on TMF recently? 



You've become exactly what you used to hate.


----------



## Rob (Jan 9, 2014)

The hell? No I didn't.
They wank Vista over there like it's their job. But he is highly down-played, here. 

Vista gives Mihawk a High diff fight over there, on top of beating DF-less WB 
I don't believe those. But he certainly tares Ace a new one.


----------



## zorokuma (Jan 9, 2014)

people need to stop downplaying vista's feat by saying mihawk was "casual".....vista was just as casual.

the point is they were fighting and they stalemated......mihawk is considered admiral level by many...that should say that vista is a significantly strong character.


as for Ace, his loss to BB was circumstantial.  for one BB had full knowledge, while Ace had none on BB's fruit.  Also, BB's fruit gives him a huge advantage against fruit users. Despite all this, Ace still gave an incredible showing.  Also, though his stalemate with aokiji was mostly due to their DF elements, if Ace's attack was not at least close to the level of Aokiji's, Ace's attack would of lost out.  That says something.

Overall I believe it would be a close figtht with ace still falling short.  but he is stronger than what some of you guys give him credit for


----------



## Ghost (Jan 10, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> @Seikyou
> Keeping up with Mihawk =/= faster than Ace?


Keeping up? I don't remember Mihawk ever trying to blitz Vista or him having any impressive speed feats either. Well, he blitzed noob Zoro.



> Not always.


Well, could you give me an example of a swordsman in OP who prefers ranged fight over CQC? 


> So, because you think so, it has to be true? You're just making shit up...


Making shit up? You don't think its a bit more logical that more damage would be delivered if the sword actually makes contact with the opponent? Are you saying that the huge slash Mihawk performed at the war wouldn't have done more damage to Jozu (or Whitebeard if Jozu had not blocked it) if the blade had actually hit? Dude...



> Going with your logic, Zoro could not harm Ace at all if he sent flying attacks at him


So you have proof Zoro could harm Ace with air slashes?
How fucking ironic.


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 10, 2014)

Leaning towards Vista very high diff.
However, I think that each could replicate all of the other's feats.


----------



## Dunno (Jan 10, 2014)

How about 2 Aces vs Vista, but one of them can make Enteis with his feet and the other one has Kalifa's DF in addition to his own?


----------



## BlueDemon (Jan 10, 2014)

Luffee said:


> It was not as simple as a "small scuffle." The whole reason of the war "Ace" was trying to escape. An admiral came in and tried to stop him and failed to do so. And didn't bother to follow up with another attack.
> 
> Plus there were no disadvantages as far as the nature of the df is concerned. Neither was it implied anywhere that Ace had a advantage over kuzan.





Lmao said:


> What do you mean the nature of their DFs allowed for that to happen? Aokiji's ice was an equal match for ten whole days against a character whose abilities are superior to Ace's, lava > fire. He countered  Aokiji's Pheasant Peck because he was strong enough to do so.



And exactly that is the problem. Do you really think the ice that countered Akainu's lava, by which Ace in turn got fisted, would be that easily defeated if it were full power? Of course, we can speculate about that endlessly, but this shouldn't be an issue after Akainu killed Ace like he did.


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 10, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Rayleigh looked away when fighting Kizaru. Zoro glanced away when fighting Kaku. Law was talking on a goddamn phone while successfully fending off both Doflamingo and Fujitora. Mihawk did not turn around and lose the focus on a fight, nor did he start running in the opposite direction giving Vista a free hit in. _He glanced away for one second_.




Those are obviously different. Long fights naturally have lulls in the combat, during which the fighters may briefly think about whether their allies are in trouble (or how to go about escaping, etc.). But Mihawk looked away in the middle of clashing with Vista, not during a lull. Their swords were actually touching. That's totally different. Furthermore, Mihawk wasn't thinking about anything pressing like his allies' survival; he was contemplating Luffy's charisma. If an enemy runs up to you and clashes with you, and your reaction is to briefly acknowledge the opponent and then go back to thinking about something that's totally unrelated and not at all pressing, and you do this while still clashing with the enemy, then you're obviously not taking him at all seriously.


----------



## RF (Jan 10, 2014)

He wasn't going all-out or anything like that, but to say that he wasn't taking him at all seriously is an incredibly stupid exaggeration.


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 10, 2014)

Not at all. It's the most accurate phrase I could use to describe Mihawk's attitude, not only toward Vista, but toward every opponent of his that we've seen.
And the point is that contrary to what you said, the fact that Mihawk looked away while clashing with Vista is important to interpreting that scene.


----------



## RF (Jan 10, 2014)

To me it just seems you're trying really, really hard to downplay Vista's competence.


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 10, 2014)

Not at all. Stalling a non-serious Mihawk is still an impressive feat. Not a feat beyond what Ace is capable of, but still an impressive feat. And like I said, I think Vista wins. I'm simply explaining why you were wrong to say that Mihawk letting himself get distracted by Luffy doesn't matter at all, and why Mihawk clearly wasn't at all serious in that fight.

My view is that most of the clashes at MF have been greatly overanalyzed, and interpretations have been tailored to fit people's preconceived notions of how tiers should go. Of course, this has always been a problem, but especially regarding MF, where there are numerous clashes that last only a few panels, and people read into these so deeply that they're worried about why Oda didn't draw sweat on a character's face.

Vista's clash with Mihawk is one such example. This is of course not to deny that Vista is a strong fighter, above the M3 and strong enough to give mid diff to some admiral levels.


----------



## Typhon (Jan 10, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Wait who said they're equal? Vista is getting mid-diffed, and pushing a Yonko level fighter that far is enough for me to confidently say that he would rock Ace into next week.



People talk like they were equally fighting eachother. It wasn't pointed directly at you or this thread. Nah I can't agree with that. Ace lost to someone that at the bare minimum, we know Marco can beat. Vista tangoing with Mihawk doesn't place much higher then Ace.



> Rayleigh looked away when fighting Kizaru. Zoro glanced away when fighting Kaku. Law was talking on a goddamn phone while successfully fending off both Doflamingo and Fujitora. Mihawk did not turn around and lose the focus on a fight, nor did he start running in the opposite direction giving Vista a free hit in. _He glanced away for one second_.



1st Example: Rayleigh was stalling

2nd Example: You'll have to remind me, but in 416 those two never took their eyes off eachother.

3rd example: Law was running away and defending himself the entire time. Thats not a fight.

 To even look onto something else is taking your attention away from what you were doing. You can't say Mihawk looked away while still completely focusing on the fight.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 10, 2014)

Sabo said:


> 1. Not true. People on similar level or even weaker can dodge, block or use other ways to intercept the attack to not get 1-shot. For example, Pre-skip Luffy against Mihawk.
> 
> 2. Why does this matter? Vergo obviously believe he can tank something of that caliber.
> 
> 3. Vergo gets down played by some people, but also hype by others (same with VAs), but the Ace down played is almost unanimous, yet they suffered exactly the same fate.



This one shot argument is flawed. Zoro one shot Ohm, Ryuuma, and Mr. 1 bar Ryuuma they all gave him intense fights. Ace hardly fought anyone while Vergo fought more. Ace just clashed (Aokiji) or got raped. (Akain)



Luffee said:


> Ace has no elemental advantage. This ain't pokemon bro



Everything is Pokemon


----------



## Rob (Jan 10, 2014)

@Seikyou


> Keeping up? I don't remember Mihawk ever trying to blitz Vista or him having any impressive speed feats either. Well, he blitzed noob Zoro.


Do we need blitzing feats? 
We're talking about a Top Tier, and a near-top tier fighter here... Obviously Oda wasn't going to have them lolBlitzArondEverywhere
The fight could just as easily have been slowed down for the reader, since we'd see nothing if they actually used their speed. 



> Well, could you give me an example of a swordsman in OP who prefers ranged fight over CQC?


Could you give me an example of a swordsman in OP who prefers CQC fight over Long-ranged? 
It's all about he situation you're in, and who you are fighting. 



> Making shit up? You don't think its a bit more logical that more damage would be delivered if the sword actually makes contact with the opponent? Are you saying that the huge slash Mihawk performed at the war wouldn't have done more damage to Jozu (or Whitebeard if Jozu had not blocked it) if the blade had actually hit? Dude...


When the hell did I say that Long-ranged attacks do more damage than CQC? 
You said that one would need to be Mihawk level in order to even harm Ace with Long-ranged attacks, which is bullshit 



> So you have proof Zoro could harm Ace with air slashes?


On a scale of very desperate, to Resorting to shitty arguments, how desperate are you?


----------



## Magician (Jan 10, 2014)

Could go either way.

Not like Vista has any feats...


----------



## Rob (Jan 10, 2014)

^It couldn't go either way :sanji


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 10, 2014)

@ Rob Vista crossed kilmeters in second or we wouldn't have a MC today.


----------



## Magentabeard (Jan 10, 2014)

Vista mid diffs.. Although Mihawk holds a fake title, he is still the strongest high tier and Vista was able to stalemate him.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 10, 2014)

Vista gets entei'd.


----------



## Magentabeard (Jan 10, 2014)

^lol no, Vista just uses his CoA and slices it in half. Then he slices Ace's head off. Vista is high high tier and Ace is mid high tier. Game over.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 10, 2014)

Got to love that tier argument.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 10, 2014)

Magentabeard said:


> ^lol no, Vista just uses his CoA and slices it in half. Then he slices Ace's head off. Vista is high high tier and Ace is mid high tier. Game over.


what? Vista has no such feats. Marco and Jozu can heal and tank it respectively, but Vistas got nothing. He couldnt drop Ronse with help and fought bored Mihawk for a bit (the same Mihawk that couldnt put down preskip Luffy).





2Broken said:


> Yes, fighting a Warlord for 5 days straight as a rookie pirate, burning down half an island and *casually countering an attack from an admiral* are all amazing feats.


yeah, that wasn't impressive when we read it, but Aokiji freezing Dofla without even bothering  to take his hands our of pockets really put that feat into perspective.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 10, 2014)

I sincerely believe Ace is much stronger and that Vista has been wanked beyond common sense.
There I said it.
Ace has shown island burning feats while Vista's best feat is a bullshit stalemate.


----------



## duhjuanwhowins (Jan 10, 2014)

Vista losing to Ace? That's the funniest joke I've heard on these forums so far.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 10, 2014)

He calling you out Garaa.


----------



## Akitō (Jan 10, 2014)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> yeah, that wasn't impressive when we read it, but Aokiji freezing Dofla without even bothering  to take his hands our of pockets really put that feat into perspective.



How did it do that? Aokiji froze Doflamingo's body, whereas he sent a projectile ice attack at Ace and Luffy. Those are two tremendously different things to fend off. Not saying that it isn't really impressive that Ace countered Aokiji's attack, but it's unfair to Doflamingo to compare his performance to Ace's.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 10, 2014)

Ace didm't get his body covered with ice.


----------



## Orca (Jan 10, 2014)

BlueDemon said:


> And exactly that is the problem. Do you really think the ice that countered Akainu's lava, by which Ace in turn got fisted, would be that easily defeated if it were full power? Of course, we can speculate about that endlessly, but this shouldn't be an issue after Akainu killed Ace like he did.



And do you really think a guy who used to have regular duels with shanks, who in turn can equally cross blades with WB be held off by someone like vista? You think he could withstand a full force slash from mihawk? See how that logic works both ways?

And you're ignoring the fact that akainu's df is superior to ace's df in op verse. This has been established by oda. No such relation exists between ace and kuzan.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 10, 2014)

Even if Ace fought Kizaru laser through the chest gg.


----------



## Orca (Jan 10, 2014)

Same is true for vista then


----------



## Rob (Jan 10, 2014)

One forum wanks Vista to all hell, the other down-plays him to the same extent. 

Great.


----------



## Orca (Jan 10, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> One forum wanks Vista to all hell, the other down-plays him to the same extent.
> 
> Great.



You're saying this after reading the poll


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 10, 2014)

Akitō said:


> How did it do that? Aokiji froze Doflamingo's body, whereas he sent a projectile ice attack at Ace and Luffy. Those are two tremendously different things to fend off. Not saying that it isn't really impressive that Ace countered Aokiji's attack, but it's unfair to Doflamingo to compare his performance to Ace's.



So Kuzan standing stock still with his hands in his pockets firing off a warning shot is more dangerous than him fighting and launching a named attack?


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 10, 2014)

Ace is not that bad as to get beat by Aokiji easily so good job for him in  his scuffle.


----------



## Akitō (Jan 10, 2014)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> So Kuzan standing stock still with his hands in his pockets firing off a warning shot is more dangerous than him fighting and launching a named attack?



That's an awful way of wording it because Doflamingo and Ace didn't both defend against the attack in the same way. Doflamingo got frozen and then had to work to break out. Ace never got hit; he just countered the attack right away. They aren't comparable in the slightest. 

But yes, Kuzan's casual attack that hits is more dangerous than a named-attack that doesn't hit. If Doflamingo was facing Aokiji and actively trying to block the attack, do you really think that it'd have turned out the same way that it did?


----------



## Orca (Jan 10, 2014)

Kuzan's attack that hit isn't necessarily stronger(though I'd say it's more dangerous). I mean Dofla broke out of it easily anyway.


----------



## BlueDemon (Jan 10, 2014)

Luffee said:


> And do you really think a guy who used to have regular duels with shanks, who in turn can equally cross blades with WB be held off by someone like vista? You think he could withstand a full force slash from mihawk? See how that logic works both ways?
> 
> And you're ignoring the fact that akainu's df is superior to ace's df in op verse. This has been established by oda. No such relation exists between ace and kuzan.



Ah guys, I'm no good at these discussions. I guess I'm more of a casual readers than most people who discuss these battles and I also tend to forget details (and it's generally not that important to me to re-read stuff only to debate). But there's also a thing called portrayal and there are also stuff one isn't supposed to overthink.

For me, it was clear that Ace was waaaaaaaaaaay below Akainu and by that Aokiji. It was also clear that Mihawk, while not having to go to extremes to beat Vista, wouldn't be able to casually put him down. My argument may not have been the best in this context, but I think that's such a case where overthinking is the issue. Vista and Mihawk's interaction made it pretty clear to me that Vista is the third strongest commander (or at least, that's how I think now, to be honest. My memory could have been influenced by the countless past debates on various forums ) from Whitebeard's fleet. I don't know how much weaker Ace is, but it's by a noticeable amount.


----------



## Orca (Jan 10, 2014)

BlueDemon said:


> Ah guys, I'm no good at these discussions. I guess I'm more of a casual readers than most people who discuss these battles and I also tend to forget details (and it's generally not that important to me to re-read stuff only to debate). But there's also a thing called portrayal and there are also stuff one isn't supposed to overthink.
> 
> For me, it was clear that Ace was waaaaaaaaaaay below Akainu and by that Aokiji. It was also clear that Mihawk, while not having to go to extremes to beat Vista, wouldn't be able to casually put him down. My argument may not have been the best in this context, but I think that's such a case where overthinking is the issue. Vista and Mihawk's interaction made it pretty clear to me that Vista is the third strongest commander (or at least, that's how I think now, to be honest. My memory could have been influenced by the countless past debates on various forums ) from Whitebeard's fleet. I don't know how much weaker Ace is, but it's by a noticeable amount.




Yes ace is below akainu. But as I said ace had a df disadvantage and on top of that akainu was bloodlusted. Whereas Mihawk wasn't bloodlusted and nor did he have any technical advantage.

Plus vista struggled to bypass akainu's logia intangibility. What about the portrayal here? Doesn't it lead us to believe he could have given the same treatment to vista?

Provided Marco also failed to do so on that occasion. But the fact that even Marco was struggling goes to show how tough a bloodlusted akainu is.


----------



## Quuon (Jan 10, 2014)

That three Aces thread..


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 10, 2014)

Akitō said:


> That's an awful way of wording it because Doflamingo and Ace didn't both defend against the attack in the same way. Doflamingo got frozen and then had to work to break out. Ace never got hit; he just countered the attack right away. They aren't comparable in the slightest.
> 
> But yes, Kuzan's casual attack that hits is more dangerous than a named-attack that doesn't hit. If Doflamingo was facing Aokiji and actively trying to block the attack, do you really think that it'd have turned out the same way that it did?


 
To supplement this, it's also worth bearing in mind that Ace's logia DF power also provides a natural counter to Aokiji's power that makes blocking an attack from him seem a lot more impressive than it actually is. Something which Doflamingo won't be able to do as elegantly with his DF. That's not to take anything away from Ace either, it was a respectable showing.

It's the same way people overplay the structure of the Vista vs Mihawk duel to overhype Vista. He's a swordsman and so he would be able to duel Mihawk in a lot more dignified manner than other types of fighters. 

In short, specific matchups play a big role. 



Quuon said:


> That three Aces thread..



Lucky you weren't around then. Bad times mang, bad times. 

There are some other hidden gems, Knife Mihawk vs Kuma and Mihawk vs Admiral Gauntlet.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 10, 2014)

Akitō said:


> That's an awful way of wording it because Doflamingo and Ace didn't both defend against the attack in the same way. Doflamingo got frozen and then had to work to break out. Ace never got hit; he just countered the attack right away. They aren't comparable in the slightest.
> 
> But yes, Kuzan's casual attack that hits is more dangerous than a named-attack that doesn't hit. If Doflamingo was facing Aokiji and actively trying to block the attack, do you really think that it'd have turned out the same way that it did?


Its more the fact that Kuzan's casual ass attack left someone as powerful as Dofla panting from exertion. Kuzan's offensive freezing ability is obviously pretty damn high, so a worn out Ace smirking and blocking the pheasant ability (which didn't appear to be one of Kuzan's crappy cutting attacks) is really impressive.





Admiral Kizaru said:


> To supplement this, it's also worth bearing in mind that Ace's logia DF power also provides a natural counter to Aokiji's power


eh, maybe. If Whitebeard can cool magma by blowing on it, you'd think someone as powerful as Kuzan would be a counter to Ace since he removes the heat from the area.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 10, 2014)

Vista high diff.


Sabo said:


> Ace should have being able to defeat Yami teach if he was a little less cocky and think with his brains.


Not really. Blackbeard was hit far worse with CIS than Ace. He got hit by a Fire Fist before the fight even started, stood there yapping like a moron about his powers which allowed Ace to hit him with Firefly, and was trying to get Ace to join his crew, not kill him. And Blackbeard's durability was good enough to take a bisento slash from Whitebeard (look at what Whitebeard was able to do even with half a head before someone says that was a weak slash), an earthquake to the head, and a shockwave from Sengoku, yet he still got back up ready to fight, so Ace was nowhere near putting Blackbeard down. With CIS off, and the intent to kill on, Blackbeard still would have won, probably at an even lower diff than what happened in the manga.


Admiral Kizaru said:


> To supplement this, it's also worth bearing in mind that Ace's logia DF power also provides a natural counter to Aokiji's power that makes blocking an attack from him seem a lot more impressive than it actually is. Something which Doflamingo won't be able to do as elegantly with his DF. That's not to take anything away from Ace either, it was a respectable showing.
> 
> It's the same way people overplay the structure of the Vista vs Mihawk duel to overhype Vista. He's a swordsman and so he would be able to duel Mihawk in a lot more dignified manner than other types of fighters.
> 
> In short, *specific matchups play a big role.*


Agreed.


Slenderman said:


> He has better portrayal. Fighting a chilled Mihawk isn't that great but it's better than getting beat by Teach. He was able to fight an admiral level fighter while Ace got raped by one.


Blackbeard wasn't even Admiral level at the time, even when he had Whitebeard's DF.


----------



## Doma (Jan 10, 2014)

Could go either way. Ace is really under-estimated and I don't think he was ever meant to be portrayed as significantly weaker than Vista or Jozu.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 10, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> To supplement this, it's also worth bearing in mind that Ace's logia DF power also provides a natural counter to Aokiji's power that makes blocking an attack from him seem a lot more impressive than it actually is. Something which Doflamingo won't be able to do as elegantly with his DF. That's not to take anything away from Ace either, it was a respectable showing.
> 
> It's the same way people overplay the structure of the Vista vs Mihawk duel to overhype Vista. He's a swordsman and so he would be able to duel Mihawk in a lot more dignified manner than other types of fighters.
> 
> ...


I remember pops saying mihawk can solo the bb pirates with a knife...and Vista can solo them as well mid dif... good times...


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 10, 2014)

Doma said:


> Could go either way. Ace is really under-estimated and I don't think he was ever meant to be portrayed as significantly weaker than Vista or Jozu.


You can argue for Ace beating Vista if Ace is shown more feats in the future, we should get some flashbacks of him later on, since his DF is on the line. But as for Ace vs Jozu...Jozu would steamroll Ace. Jozu tanked a slash from Mihawk, lifted and tossed an iceberg, got an injury past Aokiji's intangibility, and it took a distraction for Aokiji to take Jozu's arm.


----------



## BlueDemon (Jan 11, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Yes ace is below akainu. But as I said ace had a df disadvantage and on top of that akainu was bloodlusted. Whereas Mihawk wasn't bloodlusted and nor did he have any technical advantage.
> 
> Plus vista struggled to bypass akainu's logia intangibility. What about the portrayal here? Doesn't it lead us to believe he could have given the same treatment to vista?
> 
> Provided Marco also failed to do so on that occasion. But the fact that even Marco was struggling goes to show how tough a bloodlusted akainu is.



These last two arguments have to do with Haki, which is a mechanic we don't really understand to the fullest yet. But I think the most would say that Akainu's Haki is simply better than that of the commanders, so even though they attacked him with Haki, they simply couldn't overcome his own (because they were simply demoralized, or fatigued/hurt or any number of reasons. Or simply much weaker, when it comes to the weakest commanders, I guess).

The war has a number of issues, anyway. Especially when looking at Croc and him taking a hit from Jozu and still standing. And many other stuff. I guess (and other see it this way too) couldn't have the top tiers go all out yet. And this probably led to many balancing issues.

So my biggest problem in such a situation is that the same arguments are repeated ad infinitum, without anyone changing their opinion anyway, because there's nothing new that would be game changing. Thus, people maintain their opinion and try to hammer it into other people's heads. Let's try to wait for more feats/SBS or whatever before beating a dead horse even more.


----------



## Ghost (Jan 11, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Do we need blitzing feats?
> We're talking about a Top Tier, and a near-top tier fighter here... Obviously Oda wasn't going to have them lolBlitzArondEverywhere


To support your ridiculous claims he should've had them lolBlitzAroundEverywhere. Vista who is a CQC fighter is going to have a hard time against a mid range fighter. You can't seriously deny this. Vista hasn't shown anything that would prove he can easily close the gap and force Ace into CQC.



> The fight could just as easily have been slowed down for the reader, since we'd see nothing if they actually used their speed.


No shit. What does this have to do with anything? Ace isn't a normal human.


> Could you give me an example of a swordsman in OP who prefers CQC fight over Long-ranged?


Every swordsman ever? Its common knowledge that a swordsman specializes in CQC. We haven't seen a single swordsman in OP who prefers ranged fight. You can't assume Vista is more comfortable in long range fight than in CQC.



> It's all about he situation you're in, and who you are fighting.


So Vista magically gains skills in long range comparable to his CQC when fighting Ace?




> When the hell did I say that Long-ranged attacks do more damage than CQC?
> You said that one would need to be Mihawk level in order to even harm Ace with Long-ranged attacks, which is bullshit


I haven't seen a single air slash in the series except for Mihawk's that could harm Ace. Feel free to post links to prove me wrong.



> On a scale of very desperate, to Resorting to shitty arguments, how desperate are you?


Are you fucking kidding me? You pretty much said that Zoro could damage Ace with air slashes and I asked you to prove it, and now you are going offensive about it.

My arguments have been a lot better than yours. If you're going to be this biased in match ups please leave.


----------



## Bonly (Jan 11, 2014)

Hard to say although I feel like it could go either way but if I had to chose then I'd favor Ace slightly.


----------



## 2Broken (Jan 11, 2014)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> I sincerely believe Ace is much stronger and that *Vista has been wanked beyond common sense.*
> There I said it.
> Ace has shown island burning feats while Vista's best feat is a bullshit stalemate.



 Especially that bolded.


----------



## BlueDemon (Jan 11, 2014)

@saikyou: If Zoro is able to infuse Haki in flying slashes (as seen vs Monet) and to counter attack a (casual) Admiral attack, then you can imagine what Vista would be able of. 

I'm not saying he specializes in long-ranged combat, just that he's certainly capable of inflicting hurt from a distance. How efficient this is only depends on who's Haki do you think is stronger. And I'd go with Vista, so Ace would be in trouble for sure.


----------



## Orca (Jan 11, 2014)

BlueDemon said:
			
		

> These last two arguments have to do with Haki, which is a mechanic we don't really understand to the fullest yet. But I think the most would say that Akainu's Haki is simply better than that of the commanders, so even though they attacked him with Haki, they simply couldn't overcome his own (because they were simply demoralized, or fatigued/hurt or any number of reasons. Or simply much weaker, when it comes to the weakest commanders, I guess).



Ofcourse it has to do with Haki. I don't see how this helps your point. The point is that akainu could've given the same treatment to vista since his Haki is too strong.



			
				BlueDemon said:
			
		

> The war has a number of issues, anyway. Especially when looking at Croc and him taking a hit from Jozu and still standing. And many other stuff. I guess (and other see it this way too) couldn't have the top tiers go all out yet. And this probably led to many balancing issues.
> 
> So my biggest problem in such a situation is that the same arguments are repeated ad infinitum, without anyone changing their opinion anyway, because there's nothing new that would be game changing. Thus, people maintain their opinion and try to hammer it into other people's heads. Let's try to wait for more feats/SBS or whatever before beating a dead horse even more.



It's funny because your arguments are based on feats from the same war. So why bring this up now.

You were using akainu fisting ace as an argument and when I mentioned vista failing to hurt akainu from the same war, you bring this up?


----------



## BlueDemon (Jan 11, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Ofcourse it has to do with Haki. I don't see how this helps your point. The point is that akainu could've given the same treatment to vista since his Haki is too strong.



Wait a minute, what are we talking about now? Of course Akainu could eliminated Vista as well, but that's not the argument here. Vista can still be noticeably above Ace and get low diffed by Akainu. Ace pretty much got no-diffed. Or am I misunderstanding our whole argument now, lol.




> It's funny because your arguments are based on feats from the same war. So why bring this up now.
> 
> You were using akainu fisting ace as an argument and when I mentioned vista failing to hurt akainu from the same war, you bring this up?



Nothing's funny here, I'm just saying that there are many inconstencies and we should try to be as logical as we can when taking in consideration the characters' portrayal, their relation to each other and to see it all in context. I'm not trying to use this fact only for my own argument, if it looks like that.

And what's that your saying? Are you implying Ace would have had any possibility to take such a blow and come out if it alive? In this case, it's not about not being able to focus your Haki well enough, it's a pure case of being inferior. Which might also be what happened in Vista's case, of course, but that doesn't say anything about his Haki in relation to Ace's. Making this point moot.


----------



## Orca (Jan 11, 2014)

> Wait a minute, what are we talking about now? Of course Akainu could eliminated Vista as well, but that's not the argument here. Vista can still be noticeably above Ace and get low diffed by Akainu. Ace pretty much got no-diffed. Or am I misunderstanding our whole argument now, lol.



How is vista supposed to do any better than ace when he was portrayed to be nothing more than a insect in front of akainu?



> Nothing's funny here, I'm just saying that there are many inconstencies and we should try to be as logical as we can when taking in consideration the characters' portrayal, their relation to each other and to see it all in context. I'm not trying to use this fact only for my own argument, if it looks like that.



What was inconsistent or illogical about me bringing up Vista failing to bypass akainu's df?



> And what's that your saying? Are you implying Ace would have had any possibility to take such a blow and come out if it alive? In this case, it's not about not being able to focus your Haki well enough, it's a pure case of being inferior. Which might also be what happened in Vista's case, of course, but that doesn't say anything about his Haki in relation to Ace's. Making this point moot.



No I'm not saying ace had any chance. I'm saying vista didn't have any better portrayal against akainu.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 11, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Same is true for vista then



Vista has better feats when facing an admiral level fighter.


----------



## Doma (Jan 11, 2014)

Aokiji's ice certainly wasn't inferior to Akainu's magma. Their fight wouldn't have lasted ten days and Punk Hazard wouldn't have been perfectly cut in half if this is the idea Oda was trying to portray to us. Not to mention this would mean Aokiji is actually the stronger of the two if he can fight equally with a massive disadvantage against someone.

This also means Ace had no elemental advantage over Aokiji because it'd be illogical for his ice to stand up to magma but somehow be weaker than fire at the same time. It's just that his devil fruit doesn't have the same effect on Ace as Akainu did. And so Ace wasn't at a major disadvantage against Aokiji like he was against Akainu. I think it was Mr. 3 who said something along the lines of  "You never know how devil fruits will react when pitted against each other."


----------



## BlueDemon (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> How is vista supposed to do any better than ace when he was portrayed to be nothing more than a insect in front of akainu?
> 
> What was inconsistent or illogical about me bringing up Vista failing to bypass akainu's df?
> 
> No I'm not saying ace had any chance. I'm saying vista didn't have any better portrayal against akainu.



Now you're saying things I've never said. The only one shown to be an insect is Ace, ya know, who...well, died.
Vista would get low-diffed, probably. And there's a difference between no-diff and low-diff. 

It's illogical because that says nothing about Vista's relation to Ace. If both are outclassed by many levels, what do you want to compare? Especially if we haven't seen Ace using Haki on Akainu. Maybe Ace wouldn't get one hit out of ten in, while Vista could get 2 or 3. But we can't know.
What we know is that Vista has Haki. We know he is AT LEAST on the same level as Ace, if not stronger. So we know he would be able to hurt Ace, I hope that's not up for debate.

Well, that's kind of what I got out of your wording. But how can you say he didn't have a better portrayal against Vista when Ace died and he didn't? o.0
Also, this:


Slenderman said:


> Vista has better feats when facing an admiral level fighter.



He got asked to postpone the fight by Mihawk. Oda wouldn't have showed that to us if it wasn't meant to show that Vista is at least a bit of a threat to Mihawk.
And then we have Vista fighting Akainu (and other Marines, which were behind him, IIRC) and he was annoyed at them all being Haki users.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jan 12, 2014)

Wow, I swear Vista is wanked to seven hells and back. People using Vista sparring Mihawk as to prove he is > Ace are just idiotic. Both are skilled swordsmen, but you cannot use that to prove he is > Ace. Fact of the matter is, Ace is a completely different fighter from Mihawk. Ace can use large, AoE attacks and fight from distance whereas Vista is suited to CQC.

As for Ace "getting raped" by Akainu. Please read the manga. Ace's devil fruit was completely negated because Akainu's magma burned through even Ace's fire. That fight was Ace's worst possible match up. Was Skypeia arc Luffy overall stronger than Enel? No, he was just his worst match up. Vista isn't Ace's worst match up. People are forgetting Marco was there with Vista when he blocked Akainu's attack. Marco's probably the biggest tank in this manga due to his rejuvenation. 

Ace is underrated on some next levels. Dai Enkai: Entei sends Vista to hell. I still haven't seen the feats which say he is > Ace.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 12, 2014)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Wow, I swear Vista is wanked to seven hells and back. People using Vista sparring Mihawk as to prove he is > Ace are just idiotic. Both are skilled swordsmen, but you cannot use that to prove he is > Ace. Fact of the matter is, Ace is a completely different fighter from Mihawk. Ace can use large, AoE attacks and fight from distance whereas Vista is suited to CQC.
> 
> As for Ace "getting raped" by Akainu. Please read the manga. Ace's devil fruit was completely negated because Akainu's magma burned through even Ace's fire. That fight was Ace's worst possible match up. Was Skypeia arc Luffy overall stronger than Enel? No, he was just his worst match up. Vista isn't Ace's worst match up. People are forgetting Marco was there with Vista when he blocked Akainu's attack. Marco's probably the biggest tank in this manga due to his rejuvenation.
> 
> Ace is underrated on some next levels. Dai Enkai: Entei sends Vista to hell. I still haven't seen the feats which say he is > Ace.




ace wank from its finest, thought without any proof, vista beheads him mid diff get over it ni QQ a.


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 12, 2014)

Vista is the most overrated and Ace is the most underrated . U do the math.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jan 12, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> ace wank from its finest, thought without any proof, vista beheads him mid diff get over it ni QQ a.



Lol, get out of here you idiot.


----------



## 2Broken (Jan 12, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> ace wank from its finest, *thought without any proof, vista beheads him mid diff get over it ni QQ a.*



Bolded is what the issue is.


----------



## Rain (Jan 12, 2014)

Ace high diff.

Anyone who thinks Vista can low/mid diff Ace should just jump through the window.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Vista wins with low difficulty.

Ace lost to a Pre Gura Blackbeard for crying out out , while Vista can give Mihawk a good fight, they are no where close in strength.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jan 12, 2014)

Lmao, it's funny how absolutely no one can prove Vista > Ace via feats. People forget this is about match ups. 

This thread in a nutshell.

Vista sparred Mihawk.
Vista > Ace.

Lolwut? Where's the evidence he is stronger than Ace? Where's the feats? There are none.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Lmao, it's funny how absolutely no one can prove Vista > Ace via feats. People forget this is about match ups.
> 
> This thread in a nutshell.
> 
> ...



Ace lost to Blackbeard, the same Blackbeard who got raped by a half dead Whitebeard with half his face missing and Magnellan.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> Ace lost to Blackbeard, the same Blackbeard who got raped by a half dead Whitebeard with half his face missing and Magnellan.



Okay? And where does Vista fit into this equation? Don't mention WB. Half dead or not, he's the strongest man in the world.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Okay? And where does Vista fit into this equation? Don't mention WB. Half dead or not, he's the strongest man in the world.



Vista was fighting equally with Mihawk, and Ace was busy losing fights to people way weaker than Mihawk. Therefore Vista has better feats. 

And no, Whitebeard is not the world's strongest man when he's half dead and half of his face is missing.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> Vista was fighting equally with Mihawk, and Ace was busy losing fights to people way weaker than Mihawk. Therefore Vista has better feats.
> 
> And no, Whitebeard is not the world's strongest man when he's half dead and half of his face is missing.



All that proves is that Vista is an excellent swordsman. You're still not showing me feats, just using the regular A > B > C logic, which is wrong. Was Luffy as a whole stronger than Enel at Sypeia? No, he was just Enel's worst match up possible. Enel was still the superior fighter. Unless you can show me proof how Vista *through his abilities and how he overcomes Ace in a 1V1*, your points are null. How does Vista counter the Firefly tech? How does Vista counter Dai Enkai?

He was obviously heavily crippled, but his overall strength is at such a degree that regardless of this handicap, he was still that strong. All that is is a testament to Whitebeard's strength.


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> Ace lost to Blackbeard, the same Blackbeard who got raped by a half dead Whitebeard with half his face missing and Magnellan.



The reason BB went down so easily was because of his cockiness and carelessness as said by WB himself. And you can't let your guard down against WB as evidenced by him putting akainu down for a while with just two shots.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

You might want to go look up the definition of the word feat, because Ace loosing to those weak guys and Vista being able to fight those strong guys are feats.

Second of all, Luffy was stronger then Enel.

Third of all, you're the one who needs to proof that Ace can fight an opponent as strong as Mihawk, good luck proving that when Ace lost to a guy as weak as Pre-gra Blackbeard.

The problem with your logic is you assume that Vista and Ace have the same base stats, you need to realize Vista is better then Ace at a lot of things.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> The reason BB went down so easily was because of his cockiness and carelessness as said by WB himself. And you can't let your guard down against WB as evidenced by him putting akainu down for a while with just two shots.



And Ace lost to that same cocky and carelessness Blackbeard. That just makes Ace look even worse.


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> And Ace lost to that same cocky and carelessness Blackbeard. That just makes Ace look even worse.



The point is that neither ace nor vista is WB even if it is half dead. Nor is there any proof that vista can deal with BB like how WB did. So your argument about BB getting manhandled is null.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> You might want to go look up the definition of the word feat, because Ace loosing to those weak guys and Vista being able to fight those strong guys are feats.
> 
> Second of all, Luffy was stronger then Enel.
> 
> ...



You just don't understand. We're not talking about Vista vs Mihawk. We're not talking about Ace vs BB. We're talking about Ace vs Vista. Has Vista shown the ability in combat to beat Ace in a 1V1? He hasn't. Stop clinging onto Vista and Mihawk, and tell me just _how he beats Ace_. I'll ask you again, how does Vista counter Dai Enkai and the Firefly tech? Lol, I'll wait.

No he wasn't. That was just a horrible match up for Enel, as Luffy's rubber completely negated Enel's lightning.

Same base stats? Pal, I'm making a judgement based on abilities shown in the manga. Nothing Vista has demonstrated in the manga points to him beating Ace in a fight. Me, I told you how Ace wins. No counter to Dai Enaki. No counter to Firefly. And when I ask you how Vista wins, I get the same crap over and over again. Mihawk blah blah.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

> You just don't understand. We're not talking about Vista vs Mihawk. We're not talking about Ace vs BB. We're talking about Ace vs Vista. Has Vista shown the ability in combat to beat Ace in a 1V1? He hasn't. Stop clinging onto Vista and Mihawk, and tell me just _how he beats Ace_. I'll ask you again, how does Vista counter Dai Enkai and the Firefly tech? Lol, I'll wait.



Show Dai Enkai and Fire fly defeating a top tier opponent. Both those attacks failed aganist Blackbeard and yet you're making the baseless assumption that those attacks will defeat Vista?



> No he wasn't. That was just a horrible match up for Enel, as Luffy's rubber completely negated Enel's lightning.



What kind of excuse is that? Luffy could be immune to Akainu's magma right now and Akainu would still defeat Luffy by punching him to death.





> Same base stats? Pal, I'm making a judgement based on abilities shown in the manga.



And for the most part, you generally need to have similar stats to have your abilities work on someone in the manga.



> Nothing Vista has demonstrated in the manga points to him beating Ace in a fight. Me, I told you how Ace wins. No counter to Dai Enaki. No counter to Firefly. And when I ask you how Vista wins, I get the same crap over and over again. Mihawk blah blah.



Except you have never once shown Enaki or Firefly defeating a very strong opponent before so you really haven't proved anything.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> The point is that neither ace nor vista is WB even if it is half dead. Nor is there any proof that vista can deal with BB like how WB did. So your argument about BB getting manhandled is null.



So you think a half dead Whitebeard can destroy Vista the way he did with Blackbeard?


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> So you think a half dead Whitebeard can destroy Vista the way he did with Blackbeard?



Half dead WB almost destroyed Akainu(With a sneak attack). Vista is nothing.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Half dead WB almost destroyed Akainu(With a sneak attack). Vista is nothing.



How did Whitebeard destroy Akainu when he lost half of his face in the process?


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> How did Whitebeard destroy Akainu when he lost half of his face in the process?



Vista can replicate what akainu did?


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Vista can replicate what akainu did?



When did I say that? Strong reading skills of peace my goodness.


----------



## RF (Jan 12, 2014)

Whitebeard would of lost to Akainu at that point if he didn't get a free sucker punch in. He definitely wasn't strong enough to fodderize Vista, and after spending 10 minutes without half of his head it's debatable whether he could've beaten him at all.


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

@Avalon 

So whats your point then?



> *Whitebeard would of lost to Akainu at that point if he didn't get a free sucker punch in.* He definitely wasn't strong enough to fodderize Vista, and after spending 10 minutes without half of his head it's debatable whether he could've beaten him at all.



I agree with the bolded. Was just pointing out how lethal WB is if one doesn't have his guard up.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> @Avalon
> 
> So whats your point then?



You tell me, you started this debate when I said Vista beats Ace.


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> You tell me, you started this debate when I said Vista beats Ace.



If vista can't replicate what akainu did. What difference does it make if akainu blasted half of WB's head or not.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Because you said Whitebeard destroyed Akainu?

Why are we even talking about Whitebeard and Akainu in the first place, the only reason I brought up Whitebeard is that a Whitebeard with half of his face missing would not fodderize Vista like he did with Blackbeard.


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

By destroy I meant how he put akainu down with two shots. In other words how lethal he can be if you don't have your guard up. 

So Blackbeard got fodderized because he was cocky. Vista on the other hand can't fodderize BB. And even if vista gets the first hit in, BB can bounce back due to his monster durability as evidenced by taking the bisento slash and quake and still fighting on.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

I never said anything about Vista fodderizing Blackbeard, I just said Vista wouldn't have lost to a pre-gura Teach like Ace did.


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

You are basing it on WB fodderizing BB without considering the context.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> You are basing it on WB fodderizing BB without considering the context.



No, you're just underestimating just how powerful you need to be to be able to fight Mihawk, that same power won't allow you to be fodderized by a man with half of his face removed. 

Ace stands no chance at all agansit Vista, simple as that.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> Show Dai Enkai and Fire fly defeating a top tier opponent. Both those attacks failed aganist Blackbeard and yet you're making the baseless assumption that those attacks will defeat Vista?



Blackbeard's Yami Yami negates other Devil's fruits. This is why Ace's attacks failed. Does Vista hold the same privellages? No. Please, stop handing over Blackbeard's feats over to Vista and debate properly. The fact that you're resorting to such a tactic shows you have no argument whatsoever.





Avalon said:


> What kind of excuse is that? Luffy could be immune to Akainu's magma right now and Akainu would still defeat Luffy by punching him to death.



Enel's fighting style revolves entirely around his DF. Electrocuting his opponents is what he does; what's more is, he doesn't have CoA, whereas Akainu does. Your comparison is flawed.







Avalon said:


> And for the most part, you generally need to have similar stats to have your abilities work on someone in the manga.



Lol, nope. Not when Ace's attacks have a rather large AoE and especially not when Vista hasn't shown a defence that would suffice against Ace's attacks. Just you handing over other peoples feats over to Vista 



Avalon said:


> Except you have never once shown Enaki or Firefly defeating a very strong opponent before so you really haven't proved anything.



I wish you could see just how dumb you sound.

- Handing over BB's feats to Vista.

- Vista hasn't shown to be able to defend against Ace's attacks, therefore he can't as of yet. It's that simple. This is all about match ups.


----------



## Rob (Jan 12, 2014)

Vista beat Ace with Mid diff. 

The very, very lowest of High, worst case scenario.


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> No, you're just underestimating just how powerful you need to be to be able to fight Mihawk, that same power won't allow you to be fodderized by a man with half of his face removed.
> 
> Ace stands no chance at all agansit Vista, simple as that.



Ok answer this. BB got fodderized by half dead WB. But heavily worn out ace wasn't fodderized or stopped by aokiji. So does that mean ace is stronger than BB?


----------



## Shinthia (Jan 12, 2014)

Vista low diff Ace ? How disrespectful to Vista's all those almighty top tier feat. A broken knife Vista will one shoot 30 Ace.


----------



## RF (Jan 12, 2014)

Bonly Jr. said:


> -snip-



Why are you asking him to provide you feats for a character whose only actual showing was mostly off-paneled?


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

> Blackbeard's Yami Yami negates other Devil's fruits. This is why Ace's attacks failed. Does Vista hold the same privellages? No. Please, stop handing over Blackbeard's feats over to Vista and debate properly. The fact that you're resorting to such a tactic shows you have no argument whatsoever.



We saw Blackbeard get hit by Ace's fire attacks multiple times and get right back up, they were not strong enough to keep him down.

Also, where are the feats of Firefly and Entei working on a strong opponent? Unless you show that you have no reason to assume it will work on Vista. 




> Enel's fighting style revolves entirely around his DF. Electrocuting his opponents is what he does; what's more is, he doesn't have CoA, whereas Akainu does. Your comparison is flawed.



Nope, the comparison makes perfects sense, Akainu's style removes around melting people with magma and without it, he can still destroy Luffy. The fact that Enel couldn't simply means he was weaker, deal with it.

And it doesn't matter if Enel doesn't have CoA, he can injure Luffy with his trident, but he was to weak to defeat him.








> Lol, nope. Not when Ace's attacks have a rather large AoE and especially not when Vista hasn't shown a defence that would suffice against Ace's attacks. Just you handing over other peoples feats over to Vista




So where is the feats of Ace defeating strong opponents with his attacks? Oh right, they don't exist, which means you have no argument. 




> I wish you could see just how dumb you sound.
> 
> - Handing over BB's feats to Vista.
> 
> - Vista hasn't shown to be able to defend against Ace's attacks, therefore he can't as of yet. It's that simple. This is all about match ups.



No links of Ace's attacks working on anyone strong, therefore you Ace has worse feats so he loses by default. 



Luffee said:


> Ok answer this. BB got fodderized by half dead WB. But heavily worn out ace wasn't fodderized or stopped by aokiji. So does that mean ace is stronger than BB?



Aokiji was aiming his attack at Luffy, and Ace jumped in the way to protect him, if Aokiji actually tried attacking Ace, Ace would get owned.

Mihawk was also aiming an attack at Luffy that Daz Bones jumped in the middle of to block, but once Mihawk decided to attack Daz Bones instead of Luffy, Daz Bones got fodderized.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jan 12, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Why are you asking him to provide you feats for a character whose only actual showing was mostly off-paneled?



Exactly. That's the whole point. The fact that the lot of you are claiming Vista stomps or beats Ace even without the feats proving so, is just a testament to this flawed thinking. If he doesn't have the feats, then do not compare him to people who do have feats.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Exactly. That's the whole point. The fact that the lot of you are claiming Vista stomps or beats Ace even without the feats proving so, is just a testament to this flawed thinking. If he doesn't have the feats, then do not compare him to people who do have feats.



*POST THE FEATS OF ENTEI OR FIREFLY DEFEATING ANYONE STRONG*


----------



## RF (Jan 12, 2014)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Exactly. That's the whole point. The fact that the lot of you are claiming Vista stomps or beats Ace even without the feats proving so, is just a testament to this flawed thinking. If he doesn't have the feats, then do not compare him to people who do have feats.



Vista was able to legitimately tie up a Yonko level fighter and force him to request ceasefire because he was just that strong. We can safely conclude that he's well above Ace based on this, concrete feats aren't always a necessity.


----------



## Rob (Jan 12, 2014)

Entei and Firefly low-diff Avalon. 

But Avalon is fodder-level....


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Entei and Firefly low-diff Avalon.
> 
> But Avalon is fodder-level....



[YOUTUBE]8sitC43GUe4[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Rob (Jan 12, 2014)

As un-clever as always


----------



## Reekee (Jan 12, 2014)

Vista wins mid-diff. 



Avalon said:


> Second of all, Luffy was stronger then Enel.



u wot m8


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

He had better physical stats I should say, there happy Riki?


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

> Aokiji was aiming his attack at Luffy, and Ace jumped in the way to protect him, if Aokiji actually tried attacking Ace, Ace would get owned.



It wasn't aimed at Luffy. It was aimed at Luffy and Ace. Both of them were standing together. And pheasant peak was large enough to cover both of them.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> It wasn't aimed at Luffy. It was aimed at Luffy and Ace. Both of them were standing together. And pheasant peak was large enough to cover both of them.



Then why does Ace clearly say let me protect you if it wasn't directed at Luffy?


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> Then why does Ace clearly say let me protect you if it wasn't directed at Luffy?



Because it was aimed at both of them and ace told Luffy to stay back so that he can take care of it.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Because it was aimed at both of them and ace told Luffy to stay back so that he can take care of it.



I'm not so sure it was aimed at both of them to be honest, regardless we know that Ace is nowhere near in strength to Aokiji, like not even close.


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

Avalon said:


> I'm not so sure it was aimed at both of them to be honest, regardless we know that Ace is nowhere near in strength to Aokiji, like not even close.



That's a poor cop out. Its painfully obvious it was aimed at both of them. And  Yeah we also know vista is no where near Mihawk, like not even close.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

> That's a poor cop out. Its painfully obvious it was aimed at both of them.



Let's pretend that Aokiji aimed at both of them, all that shows is that is how their devil fruits react to each other, like how Crocodile said you never know how two devil fruits will react to each other.

Now what's stopping Aokiji from punching Ace? We saw how much Ace was in from Blackbeard's fists, Aokiji's fists would break him.




> And  Yeah we also know vista is no where near Mihawk, like not even close.




Nonsense. Mihawk was not winning his fight agansit Vista, infact Mihawk even had to ask Vista to postpone their fight.


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

> Let's pretend that Aokiji aimed at both of them, all that shows is that is how their devil fruits react to each other, like how Crocodile said you never know how two devil fruits will react to each other.



That's like saying "All Mihawk vs vista shows is how their swords clash with each other."

The reaction statement was true for Akainu and ace. Not for ace and kuzan.



> Now what's stopping Aokiji from punching Ace?



What's stopping Mihawk from slicing vista's head?



> Nonsense. Mihawk was not winning his fight agansit Vista, infact Mihawk even had to ask Vista to postpone their fight.



Nonsense. Aokiji didn't win his clash with ace, Infact he gave up on trying to stop Luffy and ace.

We can do this all day. You can't cherry pick here. Almost everything you said applied to vista as well


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> That's like saying "All Mihawk vs vista shows is how their swords clash with each other."
> 
> The reaction statement was true for Akainu and ace. Not for ace and kuzan.



How is that anything close to the same when swordsmanship requires strength, speed, haki (at their level) ect, ect?



> What's stopping Mihawk from slicing vista's head?



Vista blocking it.

Now since you ignored my question asking what stops Aokiji from punching Ace, I guess you concede on that point. 




> Nonsense. Aokiji didn't win his clash with ace, Infact he gave up on trying to stop Luffy and ace.



You're trying to be smart but you fail to realize that Aokiji has both the feats and the hype that shows he can destroy Ace but Mihawk doesn't have that over Vista.



> We can do this all day. You can't cherry pick here. Almost everything you said applied to vista as well



Not a single thing applied, you're ignoring that Mihawk asked Vista to end the fight.


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

> How is that anything close to the same when swordsmanship requires strength, speed, haki (at their level) ect, ect?



Elemental attacks also require skill,Haki,reactions,speed of attack etc.

Don't tell me they don't 



> Now since you ignored my question asking what stops Aokiji from punching Ace, I guess you concede on that point.



No I just countered with a similar question to show how senseless your question was.

To answer your question. Ace can either dodge or stop aokiji's punch. Now you might be thinking, no way in hell can ace stop a punch from an admiral. Well jinbei was able to stop a magma fist from akainu. Ace is stronger than jinbei and akainu is stronger than aokiji. Now if we assume akainu was holding back then same should be true for Mihawk.



> You're trying to be smart but you fail to realize that Aokiji has both the feats and the hype that shows he can destroy Ace but Mihawk doesn't have that over Vista.



Mihawk being shanks rival,WSS,Zoro's goal has enough hype to destroy WB's 3rd/4th strongest commander with the same amount of diff it would require aokiji to beat ace.



> Not a single thing applied, you're ignoring that Mihawk asked Vista to end the fight.



And you're ignoring the fact that aokiji failed to stop ace(the reason behind the war) from escaping.


----------



## StrawHat4Life (Jan 12, 2014)

Vista wins with mid difficulty. Ace would put up a decent amount of resistance but eventually get sliced by Vista.


----------



## 2Broken (Jan 12, 2014)

I've said it once i've said it a thousand times Mihawk's character is what allowed that fight to end in a draw and not with a dead Vista. Mihawk is not a murderer, he is swordsman and he does not follow any orders the government gives him unless he wants to. It has been made clear Mihawk likes to see and challenge the strength and character of others, especially swordsman. He could have one-shot killed Zoro even with his knife, but instead he chose to show Zoro the distance he would have to go to be the world strongest swordsman and told him he would wait for him at the top.If he thought Zoro might beat him one day and he wanted to stay the WSS he could have killed Zoro, but he wants to see someone legitimately challenge him for his title one day. Mihawk is looking for his equal in swordplay so he can challenge himself and that is why he sought out Shanks all the time.

In all the duels he had with Shanks, he could have fought to the death with him or went to beat him when he had one arm, but he didn't because he only sought out Shanks to test his own swordsmanship not to kill a fellow swordsman. Point being Mihawk would rather not kill any swordman he respects that can or will be able to duel with him.

At the Marineford Arc he was impressed and intrigued by Luffy and wanted to test him. Vista interfered with the fight by forcing Mihawk to fight him. Other than Luffy and Whitebeard Mihawk had no real interest in that war, in fact iirc the fact he showed up was somewhat of a surprise. Vista on the other hand was fighting for his "family's" lives. Mihawk  has great respect for Vista and had no reason to kill him. Mihawk's only interest at that time was Luffy, while Vista had a heavy emotional investment in the entire war. Mihawk would still like to duel Vista in the future though which is why he asked to postpone their fight. If Mihawk didn't care how he won or was willing to kill Vista, he would have done it .

My point is that Mihawk has his own personal interests and code of honor that determine how he behaves. Vista is strong enough to get Mihawk's respect, but he is definitely not on par with Mihawk. Mihawk clearly respected Vista and had no reason to fatally attack him and that is what it would take as Vista was fighting for his "family's" lives. Conclusion being that Vista's duel only proves he couldn't be fodderized by Mihawk and nothing more.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Elemental attacks also require skill,Haki,reactions,speed of attack etc.
> 
> Don't tell me they don't



First of all, we never see those long range non-physical attacks ever have haki. Which means it was directed at Luffy not Ace.




> No I just countered with a similar question to show how senseless your question was.
> 
> To answer your question. Ace can either dodge or stop aokiji's punch. Now you might be thinking, no way in hell can ace stop a punch from an admiral. Well jinbei was able to stop a magma fist from akainu. Ace is stronger than jinbei and akainu is stronger than aokiji. Now if we assume akainu was holding back then same should be true for Mihawk.



And once again you completely ignore how Akainu's punch was directed at a half dead Luffy, not towards Jimbei, look at my Mihawk and Daz Bones example again.

Why are you assuming that Ace is is better then Jimbei at everything because he's overall stronger? Jimbei has shown to have better endurance then ace and it wouldn't surprise if he had better durability as well, considering he's a CQC fighter that took on Ace's fire attacks for 5 days.

So no, you didn't prove anything. Ace cannot take Aokiji's punch if he was damaged by Blackbeard's punch. 




> Mihawk being shanks rival,WSS,Zoro's goal has enough hype to destroy WB's 3rd/4th strongest commander with the same amount of diff it would require aokiji to beat ace.



No, Mihawk would have a tough time defeating Vista, that is why he said he would be a fool for not knowing who Vista is, that is why they traded blows multiple times, and that is why Mihawk had aske dthe fight to be postponed.




> And you're ignoring the fact that aokiji failed to stop ace(the reason behind the war) from escaping.



I don't even agree with you that Aokiji even tried attacking Ace.

At the end of the day, you still haven't proven that Ace can take Aokiji's punches, especially when we saw how much damage Blackbeard's punches did to him.

We saw Ace get one shotted by an Admiral level fighter who is very close to Aokiji in strength.

So that is why you trying to compare Ace and Aokiji to Mihawk and Vista is beyond pathetic, you can keep trying this all day long.


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

I'm gonna go study Linear Algebra now I'll reply to you sometime this week


----------



## Orca (Jan 12, 2014)

> First of all, we never see those long range non-physical attacks ever have haki. Which means it was directed at Luffy not Ace.



What?? So basically what you're saying is that a logia can't be hurt by elemental attacks because they can't be imbued with Haki? In a world where even bullets can be imbued with Haki?

I rest my case good sir.



> And once again you completely ignore how Akainu's punch was directed at a half dead Luffy, not towards Jimbei, look at my Mihawk and Daz Bones example again.
> 
> Why are you assuming that Ace is is better then Jimbei at everything because he's overall stronger? Jimbei has shown to have better endurance then ace and it wouldn't surprise if he had better durability as well, considering he's a CQC fighter that took on Ace's fire attacks for 5 days.
> 
> So no, you didn't prove anything. Ace cannot take Aokiji's punch if he was damaged by Blackbeard's punch.



Akainu could have instantly increased the intensity of his punch and overpowered jimbei in a mere second. That didn't happen. But since we're playing the "holding back game", same should be true for Mihawk. 

What endurance feats does jinbei have that are better than ace's? And having better durability has nothing to do with CQC. 



> No, Mihawk would have a tough time defeating Vista, that is why he said he would be a fool for not knowing who Vista is, that is why they traded blows multiple times, and that is why Mihawk had aske dthe fight to be postponed.



aokiji would have just as much tough time beating ace. Because ace negated a very Strong attack of aokiji being worn from time spent in hell prison and the fact that kuzan didn't follow up with another attack. Then theres also the fact that aokiji had a lot more motivation to stop ace as compared to mihawk beating vista.



> I don't even agree with you that Aokiji even tried attacking Ace.



It's because you don't have any way to fit it into your argument. Hence you choose to willfully ignore the fact that ace stopped a attack from kuzan.



> We saw Ace get one shotted by an Admiral level fighter who is very close to Aokiji in strength.



Ace didn't get oneshotted and akainu was his worst match possible.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Jan 12, 2014)

Vista takes it probably around the lower end of high difficulty. The hierarchy goes Marco>Jozu>Vista>Ace.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 12, 2014)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Lol, get out of here you idiot.



Whats wrong baby? U dont accept the sparring argument
 with mihawk and use to wank ace by saying akainu would
be his worst match up just cuz he was fodderized by him.

It wouldnt suprise me if ud wank ace by saying he was able
to keep up with aokiji (effortless) and not mention aces df
advantage against aokiji, but yet u cry about aces df disadvantage 
against akainu.

So u dont accept vistas victory and also cant proof anything for
ace, u just piss off others and waste their time reading ur shit
complaints.

Ur the one should get out of here prick.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 13, 2014)

Avalon said:


> *POST THE FEATS OF ENTEI OR FIREFLY DEFEATING ANYONE STRONG*


post feats of Vista doing anything significant besides stalling bored Mihawk or even using an attack that did _anything to anybody_. Vista couldnt even handle VA Ronse with back up. I dont even remember seeing him cut down a fodder. 
He isn't tanking Aces best move, an island sized fireball, "just because."





Avalon said:


> Third of all, you're the one who needs to proof that Ace can fight an opponent as strong as Mihawk,


Er, Kuzan?


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 13, 2014)

Avalon said:


> Ace lost to Blackbeard, the same Blackbeard who got raped by a half dead Whitebeard with half his face missing and Magnellan.



Seastone has been shown to deplete a df's user's strength. How could a df-less Weakened Ace beat fresh Mags?


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 13, 2014)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> post feats of Vista doing anything significant besides stalling bored Mihawk or even using an attack that did _anything to anybody_. Vista couldnt even handle VA Ronse with back up.I dont even remember seeing him cut down a fodder.
> He isn't tanking Aces best move, an *island sized fireball*, "just because."Er, Kuzan?



Half an small island fireball. Mihawk never said that he was bored. What does fighting fodder have to do with anything? Is Hancock stronger than Garp because she beat maine and WB crew fodder? If fighting fodder means that you're strong than pre timeskip Luffy is stronger than everybody at MF. And that clearly wasn't the case. MF has tons of incomplete fights so using that is silly. Is Kizaru weaker than Blamenco because he didn't fight him? No. My examples perfectly counter what you say.


----------



## Captain Altintop (Jan 13, 2014)

Vista mid-high diff seems fine.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 14, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Half an small island fireball.


half because it was blocked.  





> Mihawk never said that he was bored.


so? He couldnt even put down preskip Luffy nor could he hurt Buggy with his slashes. He clearly wasn't putting much effort into anything, so I dont see how Vista stalling him is impressive.


> What does fighting fodder have to do with anything? Is Hancock stronger than Garp because she beat maine and WB crew fodder? If fighting fodder means that you're strong than pre timeskip Luffy is stronger than everybody at MF. And that clearly wasn't the case. MF has tons of incomplete fights so using that is silly. Is Kizaru weaker than Blamenco because he didn't fight him?


you missed the point. He asked for proof of Ace's attacks defeating anyone strong (which no one can provide, obviously) so I asked for proof of Vista's attacks doing any damage whatsoever.


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 14, 2014)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> half because it was blocked.
> .


Your point? It didn't cover the whole island. .[/QUOTE]

  so? He couldnt even put down preskip Luffy nor could he hurt Buggy with his slashes.

Yet he could bust a mountain of ice. Buggy can't get hurt by swords you can't negate devil fruits. 





Oberyn Nymeros said:


> He clearly wasn't putting much effort into anything, so I dont see how Vista stalling him is
> 
> impressive.
> 
> ...


----------



## Slenderman (Jan 14, 2014)

Vista confirmed by most of the OPBD posters to be stronger.


----------

