# The following verses run the top 15 most powerful superheroes gauntlet



## Endless Mike (Apr 28, 2012)

Just a plug for my new blog series, since the list is finally done:



Each character, starting with #15, is bloodlusted, minus PIS/CIS, and dropped into the following verses, with the intent of destroying/defeating as much as possible. If a verse manages to stop the character, the next one on the list appears to do the same thing (verses are fully restored/healed between each fight). How far do the following verses get? (Verses are listed in no particular order)

1. HST/Power 6/Toriko/Negima/YYH combined
2. DBZ
3. ToAru
4. Supernatural
5. TTGL
6. TMOHS
7. Touhou
8. Medaka Box
9. JJBA
10. Saint Seiya
11. Umineko
12. Fate/Stay Night
13. Star Wars
14. Doctor Who
15. _Bastard!!_
16. Pokemon
17. Digimon
18. Star Trek
19. Stargate
20. Archie Sonic
21. Noein

EDIT: Thanks for the random and pointless neg, Bioness! Go defend pedophilia in the cafe, why don't you


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

God and Death should give Supernatural a free ride to Spawn, if they make it past him I'm not sure if they could take Swamp Thing assuming this is God Thing. If Doctor Strange binds Death to his will with magic that would be interesting. 

As for the others I know.

1. Don't think they could take Hulk to be honest, well they could but Hulk is probably going to take them out before.
2. DBZ should beat Hulk, not sure about Manhunter or Flash, they should stop at Firestorm for certain though. But couldn't they arguably beat Thor? 
3. Somewhere between Firestorm and Silver Surfer as far as I know
5. TTGL probably make it to PC Supes, if they beat him Phoenix should take them#

JJBA - somewhere between Phoenix and Spectre maybe? I dunno
F/SN - Hulk could beat them AFAIK
Star Wars - Surfer or PC Supes
Seiya - Swamp Thing or Spectre?
Doctor Who - Same as Seiya I'm thinking, not really a DW buff
Bastard!! - Hmm, I'm hearing they have a universal God so they should be the same as Supernatural I think.
Pokemon - Spectre should beat them
Digimon - Shit couldn't they arguably clear it? Never watched it beyond Tamers but I hear shit gets real

Dunno about the others


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## Endless Mike (Apr 28, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> God and Death should give Supernatural a free ride to Spawn, if they make it past him I'm not sure if they could take Swamp Thing assuming this is God Thing. If Doctor Strange binds Death to his will with magic that would be interesting.



Well he's already overcome Marvel's Death several times, who is multiversal. 



> 2. DBZ should beat Hulk, not sure about Manhunter or Flash, they should stop at Firestorm for certain though. But couldn't they arguably beat Thor?



I highly doubt it



> Digimon - Shit couldn't they arguably clear it? Never watched it beyond Tamers but I hear shit gets real



But do they have the feats to take Solar?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 28, 2012)

I'll write my opinion on the rest a bit later




> God and Death should give Supernatural a free ride to Spawn


don't see them taking either Fate (hello Nabu) or Strange (hello Eternity) at their strongest tbh

maybe not Phoenix either if Jean taps deep enough (WPotC) .. but if she starts at a weaker level, then yeah 


below universal are fair game to God and Death though


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

> Well he's already overcome Marvel's Death several times, who is multiversal.



Didn't he do that under the influence of Eternity?



> But do they have the feats to take Solar?



No idea, wait for one of the Digimon buffs



> don't see them taking either Fate (hello Nabu) or Strange (hello Eternity) at their strongest tbh



Eternity takes time to prep IIRC

dunno about Nabu I never read much on Doctor Fate.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 28, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Didn't he do that under the influence of Eternity?



Yes, but no one says he can't use Eternity here.


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

Yeah I know but as far as I know channelling eternity requires time and God could hand him his ass, Death too if he isn't binded.

Though if he binds Death and has him take out everyone (dunno about God, yet to be confirmed) he could summon Eternity.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 28, 2012)

It's not like he's powerless without Eternity, he has the power of the Vishanti and lots of other beings he can use to stall for time


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

I am not sure whether that would cut it against God or Death though.

Meh, I dunno.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 28, 2012)

Well Agamotto was strong enough to fight evenly with Galactus while he was in his own dimension


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## Keollyn (Apr 28, 2012)

I didn't care about anything in that blog other than saving that Jean Grey pic.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 28, 2012)

> 1. HST/Power 6/Toriko/Negima/YYH combined
> 2. DBZ
> 3. ToAru
> 4. Supernatural
> ...


1 - I don't think they can take WWH/Worldbreaker (planet-bust) Hulk .. unless there's some major hax (he's resistant to tons of shit) that have worked on a opponent of his caliber before .. but I'm also assuming there're all on the same planet here
2 - _maybe_ they can take Hulk if they *all* unload on him immediately with ki-blasts .. even then the regen .. but MM and above stomps them
3 - not certain, but MM at least could probably take it with Xavier (or above) level mindrape in addition to being a FTL brick
4 - stop at Fate IMO, he (& Nabu) kinda has a ton of feats over mostly featless God & Death
5 - Phoenix should burn them, pre-crisis Supes could pull something out of his ass or speed-blitz, I'm not sure how vulnerable pilots are
6 - haven't seen it, Haruhi is universal ? Can she use her power ? If she can, then stop at ~Fate, otherwise lower probably
7 - no idea, but apparently SN Lucifer can take them, so around ~MM perhaps
8 - Ajimu if a mysterious wonder  .. feat-wise they're below Hulk from what I know, IF Ajimu created the universe then stop @ Phoenix/Fate
9 - GER perhaps stops @ Fate/Strange/Spawn, I've no idea what is the strongest level it is accepted to be able to work on .. if it passes them, then stops @ #3 
10 - multiversals like Spectre & Solar are too much, God Thing too, regular ST - they can't put it down, can it put them down ? 
11 - no idea, there're a few universals ? around Fate/Strange/Spawn then probably
12 - ugh, practically featless Types .. idk, maybe Hulk breaks the planet or MM mindrapes .. not taking Akasha or Void Shiki (reality-destroying .. supposedly) into account
13 - don't know about all their Bedlam Spirits/Celestials/One's etc. .. Phoenix should be enough for reality-warpers probably
14 - only multiversals can do something
15 - from what I heard, barring their God, Phoenix should take it
16 - _edited_ due to Wombat's comment and me not knowing they have a multiversal
17 - stop @ Spectre for sure, maybe Swamp Thing if he can figure out something for Zeed
18 - no idea, Q is haxxed, but I heard feat-wise doesn't go above solar-system, so Phoenix (don't know if Superman can fight reality-warpers)
19 - absolutely utterly no idea whatsoever
20 - going from the wiki they require multiversals (so stop @ Spectre) .. but, again, I'm not sure how vast offensive capabilities of Swamp Thing (not GodThing) are, whereas his regen is pretty much high-godly, so who exactly is gonna kill him
21 - their multiverse was infinite IIRC (I'm assuming this means they have a multiversal+), so they may or may not pass Spectre .. see Wombat's comment below for clarification


most of this is random guessing


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## I3igAl (Apr 28, 2012)

1. HST/Power 6/Toriko/Negima/YYH combined -Don't even beat the Hulk
2. DBZ - Might perhaps beat the Hulk with the right tactics. 
[...]
15. _Bastard!!_ might take the Phoenix/stop at full powered Strange(dunno about Fate)
16. Pokemon-Spawn seals Arceus I'd say


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

Death and God aren't really featless 

Did Types appear in F/SN? I don't remember so it should just be Servants/Masters etc:


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 28, 2012)

> Did Types appear in F/SN


good point

I kind of assumed Mike meant the Nasuverse





> Death and God aren't really featless


well compared to decades of comics ... and Fate/Strange fighting all kinds of supernatural/demonic/magical nasties that are dimensional/universal etc.


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

Well, Supernatural has only been running about... 7-8 years so it won't have so many feats though God is a cube level being so it's about quality over quantity I suppose.

Death doesn't have feats to support his claim though so you have a point with him. Then again he is the Abstract of Death


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 28, 2012)

there's also a big difference between cube being level-universal and abstract-level universal(+)

God/Death *could* be either or anything in-between


being Death kind of implies his abstract nature, but he doesn't really have the feats to outright support that


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

That is true

Mike is the Impala involved?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 28, 2012)

Impala would be #0 in Mike's list

it did save the omniverse - canon


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## KaiserWombat (Apr 28, 2012)

Arceus is multiversal, and from what EM posted, I wouldn't think that Fourth Age/God Spawn would be entirely sufficient for the task. I'd even argue that Swamp Thing may not have the feats to thoroughly defeat him (though that comment regarding potentially overpowering Lucifer Morningstar with a weaker elemental's abilities would change my view).

But Arceus doesn't possess the firepower to eliminate ST either, if the latter can regenerate from the antimatter wave of Anti-Monitor's COIE blitz.

Dialga, Palkia and Giratina would be around Phoenix/Classic Strange-level.

Azelf, Mesprit and Uxie using their *combined* powers _might_ be equal to one of the three I mentioned above (not Arceus, of course): I cannot say for sure where they'd rank at all, because of the lack of direct feats from them.

Anything lower in Pokemon is fodder for even the Hulk in his prime incarnations, destruction-wise at least. And the Hulk has so many resistances that I don't think even the h4x of Psychic and Ghost-types would be sufficient.

Noeinverse fighters are quantum beings that can only be hurt by other quantum attacks in their continuity, but magic's exotic status in fiction would probably bypass their immunity. If that's the case, then Noein himself is the only competitor worth considering: even then, it's rather debatable if he can truly destroy an entire universe in a single attack, or if he manipulates Shangri'La itself to basically "consume" tethered universes connected by beacons. Noein probably gets up to Pre-Crisis Superman.

Doctor Who? Prime Time Lord and Dalek Empires are in the multiversal-manipulating range; at maximum, they'd be Spectre-level I reckon. The Guardians are even more powerful, but IIRC that's only on an individual basis, and they haven't got any particularly noteworthy feats. Several Old Ones and primodial gods (such as the Beast) managed to survive a Big Crunch and Big Bang in order to reach the current universe, so that's also something to consider. The Silence cult are also ridiculously dangerous with their multiversal retcon cracks of time.


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## Cooler (Apr 28, 2012)

The Hulk has no way to take out the entire DB verse. He could kill everyone on Earth but he has no way to get to the Kai planet for example or even parts of Freeza's empire. They could potentially just BFR him to the otherside of the galaxy. Without FTL flight he can't take the entire verse.


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## Xiammes (Apr 28, 2012)

> Noeinverse fighters are quantum beings that can only be hurt by other quantum attacks in their continuity, but magic's exotic status in fiction would probably bypass their immunity. If that's the case, then Noein himself is the only competitor worth considering: even then, it's rather debatable if he can truly destroy an entire universe in a single attack, or if he manipulates Shangri'La itself to basically "consume" tethered universes connected by beacons. Noein probably gets up to Pre-Crisis Superman.



Noein absorbs universes, by merging with them and dragging them into Shangri-la, which most are obliterated instantly. Though this process isn't very fast, and universes that have a quantum computer can slow it down to a near grinding halt.

 Still don't know how he would fare in this fight, if he has the Dragontorc, then he can be much more offensive. Also his low godly regeneration is something that needs to get dealt with too.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Apr 28, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Did Types appear in F/SN? I don't remember so it should just be Servants/Masters etc:



most of them appeared in Notes


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

and you have ORT the cutie in Tsukihime


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## Endless Mike (Apr 28, 2012)

From what I know of ORT I don't see her making it past Phoenix at best


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

Honestly? I have trouble seeing ORT beating Hulk.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 28, 2012)

ORT is almost featless (sits there, passively warps Earth into some crystal, one-shotted #5 DAA), but Nasuverse shouldn't be above lifewipe/planet-tier barring Akasha/Void Shiki tbh


Phoenix is way overkill for them


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

ORT also has no concept of death.

I recall some problems with Akasha in the past too


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 28, 2012)

no concept of Earthen Death, if a MEoDP user was from Mercury, I assume they'd be able to do it, provided their brain doesn't explode .. or you can gank Mercury 


reality-warping probably shits on that anyway


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

Link removed

This doesn't make it seem so featless, plus it was made by Wily who is trustworthy


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## Azrael Finalstar (Apr 28, 2012)

How powerful is Solar? Is he multiversal?
and why is Archie Sonic so high


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 28, 2012)

I know willy knows it doesn't have many feats, much less appearances (it doesn't even do anything in Notes), but a profile can be scraped together if you really want to 


most of the info is from the nature of TYPEs and a statement about that super hard temperature-resistant material it's made of .. and Crystal Valley description


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 28, 2012)

> How powerful is Solar? Is he multiversal?






> and why is Archie Sonic so high





> Verses are listed in no particular order


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## Ulti (Apr 28, 2012)

Hado it isn't placed in order EM said in the OP and Solar is multiversal, just read the blog entry



> I know willy knows it doesn't have many feats, much less appearances (it doesn't even do anything in Notes), but a profile can be scraped together if you really want to
> 
> 
> most of the info is from the nature of TYPEs and a statement about that super hard temperature-resistant material it's made of .. and Crystal Valley description



8 man tag

Archangels vs Aristoteles


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## Huey Freeman (Apr 28, 2012)

I dont think anyone will be making it to the top 2 .

God thing should be sufficient enough to clear out the stronger verses.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 28, 2012)

I would prefer no spamming and trolling in my thread.


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## Omnirix (Apr 28, 2012)

1) Stops at 15. I highly doubt they have anything that can put down the Hulk who can destroy planets with his punches alone. 

2) Probably can beat the Hulk as a whole verse by spamming Ki blasts. But stops at MM due to his hax telepathy. 

3) They got multi-planetary level power, so they are probably going to stop at Silver Surfer with his star level feats. 

4) Its kinda hard to tell between feats and hype in Supernatural. I'd say they stop at the Phoenix. 

5) Stops at the Phoenix as well. 

6) Not sure 

7) Probably stops at 15. They are only approaching planetary level and the Hulk shows much resistance to reality warping. 

8) Same as Supernatural, stops at the Phoenix. 

9) With GER, it can probably get pretty high but stops at Phoenix at full power. 

10) Probably can beat Phoenix in her lower forms, but full powered Phoenix is abstract/eternity level. SS can probably get around Doctor Strange's shields but can he still merge with Eternity after he dies? If so, SS will stop there. 

11) Same as above. 

12) Stops at the Hulk. 

13)  How do Star Wars take down Silver Surfer?  It may take a while for him to kill everyone in the galaxy though. 

14) Daleks and Time Lord civilization got multiversal weaponry. The swimmers are larger than universes and would destroy them by accidentally bumping into them. The Guardians of Time and the Eternals are supposedly more powerful than them. Probably stop at #2. 

15) Probably stops at Phoenix. Practically everyone below 7 is a herald/transcendent level being while Bastard got skyfather level beings. 

16) Stops at Phoenix. 

17) Probably can tie with 7-3. But stops at Spectre. 

18) Stops at the Phoenix due to Q. 

19) Not sure. 

20) Ties with 7-3 and stops at Spectre. 

21) Same as above.


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## DarkLordDragon (Apr 28, 2012)

I think SS verse will have problems with Dr Strange, the thing is I dont know if certain techniques will work against Strange, like returning him to a time before he exists, or can he be stopped using the Tenbu Horin? Remember in SS universe you have to have a power of the big bang or 7th sense. Probably Spawn will be more than enough.


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## Heavenly King (Apr 28, 2012)

Cooler said:


> The Hulk has no way to take out the entire DB verse. He could kill everyone on Earth but he has no way to get to the Kai planet for example or even parts of Freeza's empire. They could potentially just BFR him to the otherside of the galaxy. Without FTL flight he can't take the entire verse.



HULK SMASH!!

Regenerative healing factor is something they will hate.


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## Byrd (Apr 28, 2012)

No xenogears or Demonbane


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## Samavarti (Apr 28, 2012)

Noein with the Dragon Tourque probably would be able to beat God Spawn, and tie with the Swamp Thing, but he is not getting past The Spectre.


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## Fang (Apr 28, 2012)

They don't make it past the Death Star.


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## Byrd (Apr 28, 2012)

I do wonder who would win between the first 2 and the Mazokus Gods


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## Endless Mike (Apr 29, 2012)

Fang said:


> They don't make it past the Death Star.



Don't you mean Luke?


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## Cooler (Apr 29, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> HULK SMASH!!
> 
> Regenerative healing factor is something they will hate.



Never said they could kill him . I assume he's survived attacks bigger than Kid Boo's planet buster afterall. He's just got no way to reach the whole verse let alone solo it with the guys that can fight in space etc...


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## Fang (Apr 29, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Don't you mean Luke?



EM you already know the evidence Gig has introduced:

Death Star > Omnipotents.

Sidious > Death Star.

Luke > Sidious.


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## Ulti (Apr 29, 2012)

Where does Omega Tom Hanks come into the mix?


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Apr 29, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Just a plug for my new blog series, since the list is finally done:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not including Blackbolt but including that green clown


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## zenieth (Apr 29, 2012)

I'm pretty sure half of the people in Mike's list can't even Qualify as heroes


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 29, 2012)

He has like 50+ honorable mentions


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## zenieth (Apr 29, 2012)

Phoenix sure as hell isn't a hero


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 29, 2012)

Jean kind of is and he excluded Dark Phoenix I think

but you have a point


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## Surtur (Apr 29, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> 2. DBZ should beat Hulk



Pretty much yeah.  They don't want to physically engage him, but then they don't have to.



> not sure about Manhunter



This is a hard one, I think a big factor would be whether or not J'onn can use telepathy while in an intangible state.



> or Flash, they should stop at Firestorm for certain though.



Flash is too broken, even for DBZ.  He's faster, plus things like speed steal.  As for Firestorm, don't know much about him.  Never thought of him as a DBZ level threat, how's he deal with damage?  As in, if he gets hit with a moonbuster, can he come back?



> But couldn't they arguably beat Thor?



It depends on how fast you think they are compared to Thor.  I've usually been of the opinion Thor could survive long enough to do something final with his hammer.  Though if he's trying to take on multiple top tier characters then it's probably not going to end well.  I've heard people say his hammer passively absorbs energy, if that's true then his chances go way up.

Wait can Thor still stop time?


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## Endless Mike (Apr 30, 2012)

Surtur said:


> Pretty much yeah.  They don't want to physically engage him, but then they don't have to.



Except if he gets mad enough he can physically grab energy, and just send all of their ki blasts back at him



> This is a hard one, I think a big factor would be whether or not J'onn can use telepathy while in an intangible state.



Where are you getting the idea that he can't? He's FTL anyway so it's not like they could ever touch him even if he remained tangible.



> Flash is too broken, even for DBZ.  He's faster, plus things like speed steal.  As for Firestorm, don't know much about him.  Never thought of him as a DBZ level threat, how's he deal with damage?  As in, if he gets hit with a moonbuster, can he come back?



He can fly through the sun unharmed and is made of energy... you tell me.



> It depends on how fast you think they are compared to Thor.



They're mach 1000+, he's FTL. It isn't even close.



> I've usually been of the opinion Thor could survive long enough to do something final with his hammer.  Though if he's trying to take on multiple top tier characters then it's probably not going to end well.  I've heard people say his hammer passively absorbs energy, if that's true then his chances go way up.



More like he smacks them all in the face before they can react at FTL speed.



> Wait can Thor still stop time?



Maybe over a very small area.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Apr 30, 2012)

haiseekorikki said:


> No one in DBZ is even close to mach 1000, and Thor isn't even close to FTL combat speed. Fuck with this wank.




Read the dragonball entries. Until you have, leave this thread.


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## Xiammes (Apr 30, 2012)

Your blog fails to state where you are getting your numbers, and it relies heavily on assumptions, we have no idea if the sayians ever got stronger then Frieza in base, considering they would have to get hundreds of times stronger. 

Like I care, your are just a dupe of a very angry and butthurt fellow who deserved/deserves his ban.


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## Xiammes (Apr 30, 2012)

Nothing other then a statements, plus the only person who could beat them without SSJ was Piccolo.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Apr 30, 2012)

haiseekorikki said:


> and Thor isn't even close to FTL combat speed. Fuck with this wank.


Didn't see this bit. Thor is FTL combat speed, because he can fly at FTL, and can let go of his hammer which moves at FTL speeds so it goes in the right direction. Therefore he has FTL speed and FTL reactions, so is FTL in combat speed.


haiseekorikki said:


> And he can't even jump in 10x gravity. I'm afraid that it means nothing else but that he can jump really high in 1x gravity. As for his leg strengt, it can't be more than a couple of tons.


a) Don't always believe author and character statements. Feats>>>statements.
b) He has shown that level of strength before, so he can do it again.
c)Have you ever heard of PIS?



> DBZ speed. How badly is it wanked here??
> 
> First of all.
> 
> Kaioken does not scale linearly.


It does in power. Because Kaioken x20 is literally 20 Kaiokens in a row.



> With your line of thought, SSJ transformation boosts your physical stats linearly at least 20x of your base, if it didn't Kaioken would still be superior.


Maybe it does, in terms of power. Do you have a problem with that?



> Goku's Snake Way is calculated at mach 17.
> 
> If Kaioken was linerial, then Goku's base would be at least mach 68 during Namek.
> 
> ...


I'd agree with you about scaling speed. However, if you actually read the directory, you would have found this: , so mach 320 in Namek, not mach 68.



> Then, to further show how retarded kaioken scaling is: base Goku is superior to Frieza in the Buu saga.


I really don't see anything wrong with this. Characters get stronger.



> Base Goku's speed would be at least mach 1360. See where this is going?
> 
> If Base Goku used Kaioken x 20 it would make him mach 27200. SSJ1 Would be mach 27200+.
> Oh, and Base Gotenks > SSJ1 Goku. SSJ1 Gotenks would propably be mach 500,000+ then. And Base Vegeto is stronger than SSJ1 Gotenks. Say hello to FTL Dbz characters.
> ...


Like I said, we stopped using kaioken as a speed scale long ago.
It sounds retarded mainly because it is. However, DBZ characters are pretty fast. See this for more details: 



> As far as I know, Gotenks feat is the next quantifiable speed feat after Snake Way.
> 
> And Gotenks feat is wanked as well. It's not like he actually did the laps at space, that's just pretty much the only way to show the amount of laps by drawing some of them to space. I can show you a scan of Sonic running across the planet and author showing similar circles as in Gotenks' case.


So how exactly does it make a difference whether or not they are in space? The point is, he did them.



> The feat is more likely something like mach 300-400. Even then it's only a travel speed feat which really has nothing to do with their combat speed. It could have been accomplished via constant acceleration.


He needs to dip back into the atmosphere for air without hitting the earth and blowing up a city, he needs to do the laps without hitting satellites. Also, read this: Fate




> Gotenks even states that he won't use his full speed on the temple because it would be destroyed, further proving my point that they don't use such speeds in combat - or did the temple get destroyed from their raw speed now?


In all OBD matches, bloodlust is on, so this is irrelevant.



> There's also the fact that they take several minutes to reach other locations on planet consistently throughout the entire series.



P I S
Also, I can only walk at about 3km/h. I suppose doing much more than that running would be impossible, wouldn't it?



> Mach 17+ before Gotenks is the best there is.


Aha..
no.


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## Cooler (Apr 30, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Nothing other then a statements, plus the only person who could beat them without SSJ was Piccolo.



The base kids fought #18 evenly while heavily disadvantaged in a clown suite. The Base Saiyans also tooled guys Kaioshin (someone who can one shot Freeza) was wary of. So yes the Base Saiyans by feats and statements far outstrip Freeza.


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## Xiammes (Apr 30, 2012)

It was a casual tournament, 18 believed she was fighting a normal human, you can't power scale from that at all. I'd rather not go by statements, you should know how inconsistent statements are Dragonball.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 30, 2012)

Not sure if #18 was serious


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## Cooler (Apr 30, 2012)

The #18 thing is the icing on the cake for the multitude of other statements/feats. Besides that it's highly illogical for #18 to reduce her strength to the exact level she'd be even with the kids who actually bounced back from her hit like nothing happened. Vegeta said he'd win in base with #18 sitting behind him anyway.


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## Xiammes (Apr 30, 2012)

It was a casual tournament, 18 couldn't afford to go all out in the chance she would kill the human and get disqualified. You can not power scale at all from this, since only Goten and Trunks were going all out and 18 wasn't.

Still again, you shouldn't go by statements in regards who would win in a fight, especially from Vegeta.


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## Cooler (Apr 30, 2012)

Denying statements and explaining away feats isn't an argument, it's denial. If #18 was taking it so casually why did she use a destructo disk? Besides that even if you're a massive kid nerfer the boys have to be in the few millions in base, enough to effortlessly kill any normal human. Yet #18 was even with them right from the off, so she must also have been atleast at a power level of several millions also. Argument makes no sense.

Vegeta is right when his opponents aren't androids or supressed. It's a common misconception used to ignore statements which aren't liked. Vegeta should be right until proven wrong not wrong until proven right. And in any case Gohan suggests fighting in base despite knowing all the participants. I guess he was planning on settling for a semi final place and didn't actually want to win...

There's still Kaioshin wanting to team up on Yakon and fighter around base Goku's level. Base Trunks also blew Imperfect Cell out of a city with a Kia. 

I'm sorry but considering the enourmous power increases during the Cell saga and the many statements and feats showing massive base Saiyan strength there's nothing to put Freeza above them.


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## Xiammes (Apr 30, 2012)

> Denying statements and explaining away feats isn't an argument, it's denial.



So you are mad that not everything in Dragonball can be powerscaled? I am a big fan of Dragonball and would be one of the first to push a powerup, but I have always thought it was stupid to power scale Goten and Trunks based on #18 fight.




> If #18 was taking it so casually why did she use a destructo disk?



To my knowledge, that was after she figured out who they were.




> Besides that even if you're a massive kid nerfer the boys have to be in the few millions in base, enough to effortlessly kill any normal human.



You are getting that few million from what exactly? Having a power level of 30 is enough to kill a normal human effortlessly.




> Yet #18 was even with them right from the off, so she must also have been atleast at a power level of several millions also. Argument makes no sense.



Your argument makes no sense, you are pulling numbers out of your ass.




> Vegeta is right when his opponents aren't androids or supressed. It's a common misconception used to ignore statements which aren't liked.



Vegeta has a common misconception about himself, his arrogance his beyond belief. Its his fault that every major villian in the series got to be a threat.



> Vegeta should be right until proven wrong not wrong until proven right.



I am not saying he has to be wrong, but statements should generally be ignored.



> And in any case Gohan suggests fighting in base despite knowing all the participants. I guess he was planning on settling for a semi final place and didn't actually want to win..



It seems like none of them put a lot of thought into who their competition was gonna be, without the super sayain transformations.



> There's still Kaioshin wanting to team up on Yakon and fighter around base Goku's level. Base Trunks also blew Imperfect Cell out of a city with a Kia.



Yakon was certainly above base Goku, if we are to believe Babidi's power reader. Imperfect Cell in the future wouldn't be as strong as the cell in the future, how could you even compare the two?



> I'm sorry but considering the enourmous power increases during the Cell saga and the many statements and feats showing massive base Saiyan strength there's nothing to put Freeza above them.



There is nothing to show they are above Freeza in base either.


----------



## Cooler (Apr 30, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> So you are mad that not everything in Dragonball can be powerscaled? I am a big fan of Dragonball and would be one of the first to push a powerup, but I have always thought it was stupid to power scale Goten and Trunks based on #18 fight.



Not mad bro, just tired of nerfing. #18 said there punches were strong, they can't be too far beneath her seeing as she flatout tanked SSJ Vegeta and called him weak...



> To my knowledge, that was after she figured out who they were.



Still not a casual move though is it?



> You are getting that few million from what exactly? Having a power level of 30 is enough to kill a normal human effortlessly.



You said Goten/Trunks were serious, considering that even if you nerf them massively they're still atleast stronger than the Android Arc adults, they have to have base levels in the millions.



> Your argument makes no sense, you are pulling numbers out of your ass.



So #18 supressing herself to the exact level of the base boys through sheer luck makes sense? 

I assume you just didn't read what I wrote carefully because it makes perfect sense.



> Vegeta has a common misconception about himself, his arrogance his beyond belief. Its his fault that every major villian in the series got to be a threat.



Bullshit. He's only wrong when enemies were supressed. No reason to doubt he's right now. On numerous occasions he's been the guy who see's things best anyway. He had no problem acknowleding Goku's superiority in the Cell and Boo arcs. Considering he's fought #18 and knows how strong Piccolo is from the Cell Games, being wrong at this point goes against the grain. Gohan supports him anyway.




> I am not saying he has to be wrong, but statements should generally be ignored.



Statements should be ignored? Yeah it's not like AT reveals information and the story through statements.... 

I guess Kaioshin can't one shot Freeza? SSJ2 Goku isn't stronger than Kid Gohan, hell maybe Goku beat Super Boo. 



> It seems like none of them put a lot of thought into who their competition was gonna be, without the super sayain transformations.



Maybe they did that because they were far enough ahead of the pack to not have to think about it?



> Yakon was certainly above base Goku, if we are to believe Babidi's power reader. Imperfect Cell in the future wouldn't be as strong as the cell in the future, how could you even compare the two?



Goku dodged Yakon and landed a kick. He's around Yakon's level. The SSJ multiplier just isn't 50x in the Boo Arc and/or Goku was supressed. I assume you're saying Goku's base should be 3000/50 = 60 compared to Yakon's 800 right? Which is nonsense, Cell in the future was looking for the arounds to absorb them, he had to be atleast >= them to attempt this.



> There is nothing to show they are above Freeza in base either.



Yeah if you ignore feats and statements you're right there's isn't anything


----------



## Xiammes (Apr 30, 2012)

> Not mad bro, just tired of nerfing. #18 said there punches were strong, they can't be too far beneath her seeing as she flatout tanked SSJ Vegeta and called him weak...



Still doesn't mean she was going out, and more character statements.



> Still not a casual move though is it?



Yeah, but that was after she figured out who they were, exposing them with it.



> You said Goten/Trunks were serious, considering that even if you nerf them massively they're still atleast stronger than the Android Arc adults, they have to have base levels in the millions.



Where are you getting that they are stronger then "Android Arc adults", you are pulling out numbers out of your ass.



> So #18 supressing herself to the exact level of the base boys through sheer luck makes sense?



No she was fighting in mind that if she killed him, she wouldn't get any money. She was not going all out.



> I assume you just didn't read what I wrote carefully because it makes perfect sense.



It doesn't make sense, because you keep on trying to raise Goten and Trunks power based on nothing other then a casual tournament fight.



> Bullshit. He's only wrong when enemies were supressed. No reason to doubt he's right now. On numerous occasions he's been the guy who see's things best anyway. He had no problem acknowleding Goku's superiority in the Cell and Boo arcs. Considering he's fought #18 and knows how strong Piccolo is from the Cell Games, being wrong at this point goes against the grain. Gohan supports him anyway.



I am pointing out Vegeta's over confidence, you shouldn't take what he says so seriously. 



> Statements should be ignored? Yeah it's not like AT reveals information and the story through statements



Character feets > Character/Author statements any day of the week, month, year, or universe at least in reguard who wins in a fight inuniverse.



> Maybe they did that because they were far enough ahead of the pack to not have to think about it?



Maybe they just didn't think? All of them are air heads.



> Goku dodged Yakon and landed a kick. He's around Yakon's level. The SSJ multiplier just isn't 50x in the Boo Arc and/or Goku was supressed. I assume you're saying Goku's base should be 3000/50 = 60 compared to Yakon's 800 right?



Your Argument just defeated itself, SSJ is just a 50x multiplier, Based on Babidi's Scale he would be just 60. Do you forget not everyone, especially villains go all out in DB, especially at the start of a fight?



> Which is nonsense, Cell in the future was looking for the arounds to absorb them, he had to be atleast >= them to attempt this.



The Androids were gone, he was curious why they were. That Cell was incredible weaker, compared to the first cell. The first cell had much more people to absorb, including absorbing trunks before going to the main universe, then he had a feast in the main universe.

The Cell in future trunks timeline, could have been in no way as strong as an Android, with the incredible diminished population alone.



> Yeah if you ignore feats and statements you're right there's isn't anything



What feats, I only see character statements and numbers being pulled out of thin air.


----------



## Cooler (Apr 30, 2012)

Feats > statements sure but seeing as nothing contradicts the statements I've posted I'm just going to go ahead and call you an idiot. Which is apt description seeing as you think Goku's base is less than a 10th of Yakons...


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Apr 30, 2012)

Anyway, about the gauntlet:

*1. HST/Power 6/Toriko/Negima/YYH combined* Hulk can take this.
*2. DBZ* Can beat the hulk, probably gets mindraped by manhunter. Can't get past the flash.
*5. TTGL* Precrisis superman beats them.
*10. Saint Seiya* strange to god thing -ish.
*13. Star Wars* surfur-ish
*14. Doctor Who* stops at spectre
*16. Pokemon* Phoenix to fate.
*17. Digimon* spectre or solar
*20. Archie Sonic* Fate


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## Xiammes (Apr 30, 2012)

> Feats > statements sure but seeing as nothing contradicts the statements I've posted I'm just going to go ahead and call you an idiot. Which is apt description seeing as you think Goku's base is less than a 10th of Yakons...



So you resort to name calling, I am fine with that. 

Yes there are plenty of things wrong with the statements. SSJ is only a 50x mulitplier, I am sorry you have such a hard time understand Cis/Pis.


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Except if he gets mad enough he can physically grab energy, and just send all of their ki blasts back at him



But he really wouldn't have a chance to get mad enough.

As for Firestorm..*shrugs* I'd heard it said that he was killed by getting stabbed with a sword and then exploding, though there's been a few different versions of the guy so that could of been one of the weaker ones.


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## Banhammer (Apr 30, 2012)

Hulk busts the planet
He survives planetary destruction
DBZ characters do not


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## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Hulk busts the planet
> He survives planetary destruction
> DBZ characters do not



So what's stopping them from tossing him into space at speeds too fast for him to react to?

Though yes, there are actually characters in DBZ who can survive planetary destruction.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 30, 2012)

Amuse me
Which one of these dbz character is faster than the silver surfer?


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## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Amuse me
> Which one of these dbz character is faster than the silver surfer?



Who said anything about the Silver Surfer?  You don't need to be anywhere near the Surfer's level of speed to blitz Hulk.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 30, 2012)

Yet a case is made citing all the fights the hulk has had with him all throughout the years
Post the beyond considerable superiority of dbz over the silver surfer that won't let the hulk blow out a single planetbusting stomp


If not, then be silent


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

I can't tell if you're joking or not.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 30, 2012)

Then stop posting and lurk more


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## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Just to be clear, you are aware that Surfer is fast to the point of being able to search the entire planet before Dr. Strange can finish a sentence and other things like that.

You are of the opinion that Hulk has consistently been that fast?


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 30, 2012)

Post that evidence for DBZ or shut up and lurk more


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## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

If you truly believe what you are claiming there really isn't anything more to be said.

The other day a bunch of people kept insisting to me that whenever someone on this board wanks a character they are shot down.

This is the perfect opportunity to show if they were being truthful or just messing with me.

I will indeed wait to see if that actually happens.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 30, 2012)

IIRC, there was a comic where the Hulk tagged Surfer by throwing a rock at him.

I don't know if that's an outlier though, but judging by the way Banhammer is talking it _probably_ isn't.


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> IIRC, there was a comic where the Hulk tagged Surfer by throwing a rock at him.
> 
> I don't know if that's an outlier though, but judging by the way Banhammer is talking it _probably_ isn't.



Characters with super speed get tagged all the time by characters much slower then them.

I'd be quite curious for any feats for Hulk showing FTL reflexes that don't involve him fighting the Silver Surfer(who doesn't always use his speed anyways).

Even Quicksilver was blitzing the Hulk just fine until the standard speedster pis of "Guy sticks out arm and speedster runs into it" was pulled.

I'm not saying every feat of a person reacting/tagging a speedster should get thrown out, but you have to at least ask yourself if they have ever shown that type of speed outside of those occasions.  Especially for a character like Hulk who has been around for decades and should have plenty of non-Silver Surfer related FTL feats.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't really know enough about the Hulk to comment on that, so I can't help you there.

But shouldn't tagging someone mean you at least have the reactions to keep up with them?

Or is this just an outlier?


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Apr 30, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Amuse me
> Which one of these dbz character is faster than the silver surfer?



Anytime hulk blitzed surfer was jobbing. He hasn't shown feats at nearly that level. And even if he was, how could he kill people on other planets? Hulk can't fly or survive without breathing, someone like freiza could blow up earth and watch hulk suffocate.


----------



## Ulti (Apr 30, 2012)

Actually I'm fairly sure I've seen scans of Hulk chillin in space.

Or was that Rulk? I don't remember.


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

I've heard Hulk might be able to..well not breath in space, but not die via suffocation.  Or he might just suffocate, then heal..then suffocate again.

Though I don't see how he could return to the planet under his own power.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 30, 2012)

I find it hard to imagine someone like Hulk will die from lack of air

just a feeling 


+ if he's around they probably still need to kill him in space to advance in the gauntlet ?


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> + if he's around they probably still need to kill him in space to advance in the gauntlet ?



Perhaps, though Hulk certainly wouldn't achieve anything close to resembling a victory.

In fact, he'd probably wish he could be killed.  I'd rather die then float through space for god knows how long(especially if you're constantly suffocating and then healing).  Though I suppose there's a chance he might be found by people on other planets, but then again space is pretty big..


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Apr 30, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> I find it hard to imagine someone like Hulk will die from lack of air
> 
> just a feeling
> 
> ...





The Penetrator said:


> Actually I'm fairly sure I've seen scans of Hulk chillin in space.
> 
> Or was that Rulk? I don't remember.


Last time I saw him in space (he was taking out a SHEILD satellite) he needed to take up air with him. Has he had a power-up since?


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## Ulti (Apr 30, 2012)

Dunno, don't really read comics apart from Strange Tales and WWH.

But yes, Hulk will be floating in space while Cell, Frieza or Buu will be able fuck off somewhere while Hulk is swinging his fists wildly.

Though knowing how stupid Hulk can be at times I wouldn't at all be surprised if he got so angry he flew off in that direction


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 30, 2012)

> Last time I saw him in space (he was taking out a SHEILD satellite) he needed to take up air with him. Has he had a power-up since?



Like when he was fighting skrull black bolt on the surface of the moon?


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## Banhammer (Apr 30, 2012)

> Cell, Frieza or Buu



They need to kill him. I'd say gamma charged thunderclaps can wipe out all the sploches


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 30, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> Yet a case is made citing all the fights the hulk has had with him all throughout the years
> Post the beyond considerable superiority of dbz over the silver surfer that won't let the hulk blow out a single planetbusting stomp
> 
> 
> If not, then be silent



Last fight I remember between then bloodlusted Surfer was rick rolling the entirety of the Warbound group without The Power Cosmic, just straight physically overpowering them. It took them ganging up and cheap shotting him to give Hulk a chance to pin him. Fights between them where Surfer is holding back should be suspect for obvious reasons.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 30, 2012)

This however, isn't a matter of Hulk vs Surfer

This is a matter of hulk getting off a planet buster before someone beneath surfer level can toss him into space


Where I guess he'll just pounce on an asteroid or something and then bust the earth, the argument is inane on many many levels, but then again, it was an argument against me


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 30, 2012)

My primary question is though is Hulk starting out in Worldbreaker mode or does he start out in base. because he can't enter Worldbreaker mode straight away. he needs to build up rage first from what i recall



The Penetrator said:


> Actually I'm fairly sure I've seen scans of Hulk chillin in space.
> 
> Or was that Rulk? I don't remember.



Could have been Rulk (probabaly Loeb Rulk), then again Hulk caan survive in space so long as his breath lasts



Banhammer said:


> Like when he was fighting skrull black bolt on the surface of the moon?



wasn't he fighting him on the Blue Area...in other words the area of th moon with breatable atmosphere?


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## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> This is a matter of hulk getting off a planet buster before someone beneath surfer level can toss him into space



Which he can't do.



> Where I guess he'll just pounce on an asteroid or something and then bust the earth



If there's an asteroid nearby, which you have no way of knowing.



> the argument is inane on many many levels, but then again, it was an argument against me



The argument that people faster then Hulk could blitz him and toss him into space is inane?



Banhammer said:


> They need to kill him. I'd say gamma charged thunderclaps can wipe out all the sploches



Perhaps he could take Frieza down that way, but I'm not exactly sure how a thunderclap is going to kill Cell or Buu.

Of course Buu could just absorb Hulk and that would be the end of that.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 30, 2012)

Surtur said:


> *Which he can't do*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He can if he goes into Worldbreaker mode or starts out in it. He planet busted last year when he went into it

In fact he did it as an affter effect of him clashing with his Ex-Wife


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> He can if he goes into Worldbreaker mode or starts out in it. He planet busted last year when he went into it



Oh I don't doubt it, what I meant was that he can't do that before getting blitzed and tossed off world.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 30, 2012)

Surfer or not, Hulk should be fully capable of reacting to DBZ fighters .. what are his accepted reactions ? 

do they have strength feats suggesting they can toss WWH into space ?

Is it a good idea for them to willingly close distance between themselves and the Hulk, much less get in melee range of him


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 30, 2012)

Surtur said:


> Oh I don't doubt it, what I meant was that he can't do that before getting blitzed and tossed off world.



There's no reason he can't react to any of the Dragonball fighters...secondly none of them have the physcial strength to toss him up there...they'd have to nab him and fly him up. 

which gives him a chance to turn them into bloody paste with one blow


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> Surfer or not, Hulk should be fully capable of reacting to DBZ fighters



...why?  He's never been presented as someone particularly fast.  Sure, he's fast for a thing his size, but he doesn't have speed anywhere near DBZ characters.



> do they have strength feats suggesting they can toss WWH into space



Yes.



> Is it a good idea for them to willingly close distance between themselves and the Hulk, much less get in melee range of him



It's a better idea then simply standing there and letting Hulk destroy the planet.  Not to mention they will be in no danger since Hulk won't be able to react to them.



Emperor Joker said:


> There's no reason he can't react to any of the Dragonball fighters



Based on?



> secondly none of them have the physcial strength to toss him up there...they'd have to nab him and fly him up.



Huh? Just power scaling off Tao Pai Pai's feats alone shows they are more then strong enough.

Though it really doesn't matter if they couldn't, they could toss him in the air and blast him into space.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 30, 2012)

Surtur said:


> ...why?  He's never been presented as someone particularly fast.  Sure, he's fast for a thing his size, but he doesn't have speed anywhere near DBZ characters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No they don't. not once has any character tossed another into space. and once again Hulk does have reaction feats...I'm not saying surfer level but he does have good ones. over the years he's shown enough to keep up with the Dragonball cast.

No danger. all it takes is one slight punch from him in Worldbreaker mode and they're fucking dead...and if they're carrying him...that means he lands and and the resulting landing takes out the planet

Cell and buu will survive it as Fluttershy said...Freeza it depends


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 30, 2012)

> Yes.


Which one's ? 



> ...why? He's never been presented as someone particularly fast. Sure, he's fast for a thing his size, but he doesn't have speed anywhere near DBZ characters.


I think his reactions are on par



> It's a better idea then simply standing there and letting Hulk destroy the planet.


they could try unloading their multiple 50x Jupiter busters on him all at once to see if that might kill him

Cell and Buu will survive planet-busting (Buu casually so), Freeza might not die from it (though he'll be wrecked), Goku can IT off of it before the blast




*Spoiler*: __ 





> EDIT: Thanks for the random and pointless neg, Bioness! Go defend pedophilia in the cafe, why don't you


wtf Oo


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> No they don't. not once has any character tossed another into space.



Tao Pai Pai could toss stone pillars a vast distance and high end Z fighters are so much more powerful then him it's not even funny.



> and once again Hulk does have reaction feats...I'm not saying surfer level but he does have good ones. over the years he's shown enough to keep up with the Dragonball cast.



Name these feats.



Fluttershy said:


> I think his reactions are on par



Yes, and I am asking what feats he has to make you think this.  Master Roshi is a casual bullet timer.  People like Cell are literally thousands of times more powerful.

Krillin and Roshi were so fast they had an entire fight in the span of a second, including them flat out stopping during this to plan out strategies and such.  What's Hulk done on that level?


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 30, 2012)

Surtur said:


> Tao Pai Pai could toss stone pillars a vast distance and high end Z fighters are so much more powerful then him it's not even funny.
> 
> 
> 
> Name these feats.



and the best Physical feat performed from my memory was either Goku puntil Freeza through those Islands or the Crater that happened during the Super Buu Vs. Gotanks fight...again nothing suggesting they can toss things into orbit from ground level

You mean other than being capable of reacting to people like Iron Man for decades now or other speedsters come on man...Hulk might be a brick but he's got some decent reaction feats to his name


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> and the best Physical feat performed from my memory was either Goku puntil Freeza through those Islands or the Crater that happened during the Super Buu Vs. Gotanks fight...again nothing suggesting they can toss things into orbit from ground level



So the Tao Pai Pai feat and power scaling that doesn't get you to space tossing strength?  I believe he tossed a stone pillar like 2000 kilometers.



> Hulk might be a brick but he's got some decent reaction feats to his name



Ok so name these feats please.  It shouldn't be hard if he is legitimately as fast as you claim.  Him reacting to Iron Man doesn't put him on the level of high end Z fighters.

If simply fighting a person with super speed equates to being on their level then by your logic Hulk is indeed Silver Surfer level.

Give me a speed feat that doesn't involve fighting another character who may or may not be using their speed.  Since characters do that all the time, Deathstroke just became FTL if that is the criteria for speed.

EDIT: Just to note we have feats of characters slapping back ki blasts with such force they go through one side of the planet and out the other.(Happened in one of the Gotenks fights IIRC, or at least occurred during the Buu Saga)  I'm failing to see how high end Z fighters would not be capable of tossing Hulk into space.

2nd EDIT: Just wanted to add one more thing, if we are indeed saying that simply fighting someone with super speed a bunch of times equates to being as fast as then..does that mean anyone who has fought the Hulk a bunch of times is now way way above bullet timing?  Abomination, for instance..bullet timer?

Also, why has Hulk never once used his reaction time in a combat situation?  It goes a step beyond simple PIS when he's never done it even once.  After all, if he is quick enough to react to Z fighters and actually destroy the planet before they do anything..that means he's both reacting and moving his body at highly fast speeds.


----------



## Nevermind (Apr 30, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Just a plug for my new blog series, since the list is finally done:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Would have been easier if you did a recap of all of them. Also you probably shouldn't have listed DBZ since well, it invites a shit storm when going up against comics. Your gauntlet is rather out of order as well.



Fluttershy said:


> they could try unloading their multiple 50x Jupiter busters on him all at once to see if that might kill him



This is what I'm thinking too, though only the high tiers at Kid Buu level and above are capable of doing that.



Surtur said:


> Give me a speed feat that doesn't involve fighting another character who may or may not be using their speed.  Since characters do that all the time, Deathstroke just became FTL if that is the criteria for speed.



You don't get to simply just dismiss stuff and move the goalposts. If the feats are legitimate, then they are legitimate, though I can't recall anyone claiming Hulk in a non-PIS situation can tag Surfer.

But I truly am laughing at the notion of anyone in DB tossing Hulk into space- not because it's theoretically impossible, but because they'd have to get up close to Hulk to do so, and that's _the last_ place they want to be.


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> You don't get to simply just dismiss stuff and move the goalposts. If the feats are legitimate, then they are legitimate



I agree, and a character with legitimate super speed would have plenty of instances of using it, correct?

This is why Deathstroke isn't granted FTL reflexes, because he doesn't have any feats(besides Flash encounters) that show these supposed reflexes.

Unless, wait..is he granted those reflexes here?(Serious question)



> though I can't recall anyone claiming Hulk in a non-PIS situation can tag Surfer.



Check back 2 pages in this thread and you will unfortunately see someone make just such a claim.



> But I truly am laughing at the notion of anyone in DB tossing Hulk into space- not because it's theoretically impossible, but because they'd have to get up close to Hulk to do so, and that's _the last_ place they want to be.



I don't see what's funny about it.  The idea was that they are faster then him and thus he wouldn't be able to tag them anyways.  If he is indeed at their level of speed then yes it would be a dumb move.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 30, 2012)

personally I think DBZ *can* pass Hulk, but they'd certainly have to go all out, possibly lose some high-tiers and obviously not by tossing him anywhere (or getting close)


but J'ohn is like ~Superman + Xavier, they stop there


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> personally I think DBZ *can* pass Hulk, but they'd certainly have to go all out, possibly lose some high-tiers and obviously not by tossing him anywhere (or getting close)



Honestly, if every single character just immediately fired off their strongest attack at him..that should do it.  At the very least it would put him down long enough for them to get close.  Why is this important?  Since, IIRC, there was a character in Dragonball whose special power was turning people into carrots or something.

Though I guess it's possible Hulk has transmutation resistance.

Then what about things like Buu absorbing him?  He has no way to escape from that.  The only time anyone did was due to the person being a combination of two people and then being absorbed.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 30, 2012)

Hulk has all kinds of resistances

check Mike's blog for details



Boss Rabbit is boss though


----------



## Surtur (Apr 30, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> Hulk has all kinds of resistances
> 
> check Mike's blog for details
> 
> ...



I don't doubt it, but there's a lot of weird powers that were shown in Dragonball.  Probably in Dragonball GT as well, but I stopped watching after seeing Vegeta with his "I want to molest you" mustache.  Well, that's probably the key to defeating Hulk right there.  Just have Vegeta show up in a white windowless van and eyeball the fuck out of Hulk with that mustache.


----------



## Heavenly King (Apr 30, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Last time I saw him in space (he was taking out a SHEILD satellite) he needed to take up air with him. Has he had a power-up since?



 the old green hulk has jumped into other space, yes he has gotta a big power up



Surtur said:


> Oh I don't doubt it, what I meant was that he can't do that before getting blitzed and tossed off world.



I don't see anyone in dbz tossing hulk of the planet at all


two things can happen here in this fight

he could


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Thunder clap like Banhammer said 




Or something worst can happen like this 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Getting hit piss him off and gamma energy burns and give them all something to worry about








*Spoiler*: __ 



one more thing y'all for get that Hulk can jump real high and fast


----------



## Shade Impulse (Apr 30, 2012)

Buu absorbing Hulk would require Hulk to be shrunk right? Shrunk down and put in a cocoon or something?

The list from EM's blog has shrinking under the resistance/immunity thing. Anyone know about that? O_O


----------



## Lina Inverse (Apr 30, 2012)

DBZ can toss Hulk to space?

When did this happen?


----------



## Fang (Apr 30, 2012)

World War Hulk was completely immune to Death Elixir.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Apr 30, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> personally I think DBZ *can* pass Hulk, but they'd certainly have to go all out, possibly lose some high-tiers and obviously not by tossing him anywhere (or getting close)
> 
> 
> but J'ohn is like ~Superman + Xavier, they stop there



Bulma traps hulk in a capsule. 
Trunks hits his time machine and sends Hulk back to the 1970's. 
Hulk challenges someone to a dance off. 
Hulk losses and instead of angry feels so much shame he reverts to banner.
Banner is told he got served. 
Yamcha was secretly hiding in the tiem machine and break banner's neck. 
GG. 

More seriously, I'm wondering how a lot of these characters would do in Star trek. Ignoring Q because he makes the heroes journey mute, it would be a pain in the ass for quite a few of them to even cross the Delta Quadron. Furthermore, if we're including the future temporal tech, it's possible they'd just get BFR. In fact, even excluding both that stuff, Star Trek should still have that err ?Omega? energy said to be able to solar system bust in large quantities, and the massive monster that cause illusions nigh solar system wide. Hell, how would many of the heroes even reach some of the dimension or special areas.

All in all, excluding Solar man as I don't know shit about him, only Spectre stands a chance against Star Trek. However, I'mma go with Q fucking his shit up. And I know how strong spectre can get...but fuck it 

Edit: SS probably blast like 98% of Star Trek, but Q turns him into a carot.


----------



## Huey Freeman (May 1, 2012)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> Bulma traps hulk in a capsule.
> Trunks hits his time machine and sends Hulk back to the 1970's.
> Hulk challenges someone to a dance off.
> Hulk losses and instead of angry feels so much shame he reverts to banner.
> ...



Nope, Q are universal in range (questionable?) and probably galaxy level in destructive output , The Spectre, and God Thing are multiversal they curb stomp.

Even though one can argue Q does not even make it pass Jean Grey.


----------



## Zarkus (May 1, 2012)

only doing the series I know

1. HST/Power 6/Toriko/Negima/YYH combined
They might be able to beat the Hulk through sheer numbers + hax, but that's a big if considering what all he's resistant to.

2. DBZ
best they could beat is the Hulk. Everyone else on the list is just too fast for them to even hold a candle to, except -maybe- Thor, who beats them out in both firepower and durability to such an extent that he'd still stomp.

5. TTGL
Definitely loses to Dr. Strange or Dr. Fate, possibly Phoenix. Vulnerability of the pilots could probably let one of the weaker ones mindfuck them though.

16. Pokemon
I don't know if they have an answer for Swamp Thing's incredible regen, so probably him.

17. Digimon
Spectre or Solar. They possibly clear it, though. I don't think the two could beat a Multiversal & a slew of Universals.


----------



## feebas_factor (May 1, 2012)

Zarkus said:


> only doing the series I know
> 
> 1. HST/Power 6/Toriko/Negima/YYH combined
> They might be able to beat the Hulk through sheer numbers + hax, but that's a big if considering what all he's resistant to.



Sound about right. Piling on the hax in _massive_ numbers (well it is verses combined) is the only way they could affect him, but the possibility of them even getting a chance to do so is slim.



Zarkus said:


> 2. DBZ
> best they could beat is the Hulk. Everyone else on the list is just too fast for them to even hold a candle to, except -maybe- Thor, who beats them out in both firepower and durability to such an extent that he'd still stomp.



One thing I was slightly curious about - does Martian Manhunter have a set speed for his telepathy hax? Because that was what I figured was his easiest way to stomp DBZ, assuming it's basically instantaneous.



Zarkus said:


> 16. Pokemon
> I don't know if they have an answer for Swamp Thing's incredible regen, so probably him.
> 
> 17. Digimon
> Spectre or Solar. They possibly clear it, though. I don't think the two could beat a Multiversal & a slew of Universals.



I dunno, I kinda feel like it's just Arceus and ZeedMilleniumon carrying the ball on these ones, only a small handful of Pokemon and Digimon come even remotely close to their levels.

So very shortly into the list it almost just becomes one-on-one with those two.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 1, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> They need to kill him. I'd say gamma charged thunderclaps can wipe out all the sploches


Don't thunderclaps need air to work?


Banhammer said:


> Like when he was fighting skrull black bolt on the surface of the moon?


I can't find that. Can I have a scan, please?



Fluttershy said:


> hey could try unloading their multiple 50x Jupiter busters on him all at once to see if that might kill him


There is no evidence that DBZ characters have 50x Jupiterbusters. This is based on buu's blast having the same power as the death star, and seeing as the death star's power is based on accelerating the debris to near-relativistic speeds, and there is no evidence the debris is travelling that fast in DBZ, it is nothing more than a planetbuster, not 50x jupiter.



Surtur said:


> I don't see what's funny about it.  The idea was that they are faster then him and thus he wouldn't be able to tag them anyways.  If he is indeed at their level of speed then yes it would be a dumb move.


Going close enough to hulk to touch him is a dumb move regardless. Anyway, there is no evidence they have the physical strength to throw him into space.



Surtur said:


> I don't doubt it, but there's a lot of weird powers that were shown in Dragonball.  Probably in Dragonball GT as well, but I stopped watching after seeing Vegeta with his "I want to molest you" mustache.  Well, that's probably the key to defeating Hulk right there.  Just have Vegeta show up in a white windowless van and eyeball the fuck out of Hulk with that mustache.


GT is non-canon. (As is all DBZ anime).

I think one thing a lot forgetting is that freiza is not, nor has he ever been, to earth. So hulk can't get to him until frieza flies to earth, and then frieza could just snipe him from space.


----------



## feebas_factor (May 1, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Going close enough to hulk to touch him is a dumb move regardless. Anyway, there is no evidence they have the physical strength to throw him into space.



Agree with the rest of your post, just gonna clear up this one point here though, since it seems to be frequently in dispute:

- Mass of Hulk: I'll say about , feel free to correct me though.
- Escape velocity: 11,200 m/s
- Kinetic energy needed to throw Hulk into space: 37,632,000,000 joules.

Tao Pai's pillar feat:



- Mass of pillar: ~500 kg
- Velocity: mach 14-21
- Kinetic energy needed to throw pillar at mach 14: 5,764,800,000 joules.

Tao Pai, from BEFORE Dragonball Z even, could throw with 15% of the energy needed to send Hulk into orbit. Even if you disagree with those particular numbers for the feat, it's still liable to be at least 1%... So unless one is inclined to believe they're less than a hundred times stronger than Tao was, there should really be little doubt that top Z fighters can throw Hulk into space. 

Whether it's a good idea, of course, is another question entirely...
But Freiza can just use telekinesis anyway so wtv. 

EDIT: Also, apologies for editing my post so friggin' much. Just wanted to keep there from being too many undeclared assumptions, I know it is basically a form of powerscaling after all.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 1, 2012)

feebas_factor said:


> Agree with the rest of your post, just gonna clear up this one point here though, since it seems to be frequently in dispute:
> 
> - Mass of Hulk: I'll say about , feel free to correct me though.
> - Escape velocity: 11,200 m/s
> ...


Fair enough, I'm wrong. They can.


----------



## Moonbeam Funk (May 1, 2012)

I'm gonna try to comment on some series that haven't been mentioned much in detail in this thread, not having a lot of in-depth knowledge when it comes to comic books. I'll check out the blog entries in a moment, so these are just some immediate thoughts, and I'll get around to posting a better reply later.

6. TMOHS
Ignoring any extreme wanking of Haruhi herself, I think the ISDE can pose a pretty significant threat against most of the 15 obviously barring any who could counter manipulation of reality, time, space, etc. Though the fact that regardless of their power they're still only universal scale at best kinda hinders them from having as much of a chance against powerful beings of that scale or better.

7. Touhou
This is one of those tricky verses that has potentially broken and weird powers, like a few others on the list do. However, if we're being pretty strict about what certain powers can actually do based on showings and being careful to avoid any NLF, only the top tiers of Touhou could contend very well against certain superheroes. Still, I think those top tiers are what'll make the verse definitely not an easy one to beat for any superhero.

8. Medaka Box
I haven't gotten around to reading Medaka Box yet, but I have a friend who's a pretty big fan who talks about it and links scans often. From what I can tell, recently Ajimu was revealed to be as hax as you would expect someone with several QUADRILLION powers to be. Notable skills implied to have been used recently apparently include things like "Be stronger than the enemy skill", "Control the infinite skill", "Control nothingness skill", "Erase your weaknesses skill", "Grant others weaknesses skill", "If you are seen they die skill", "Win against those much stronger than you skill"... Now I know assuming all of these would work against any opponent would be a MASSIVE NLF, but nonetheless it's impressive if these are actually skills she can use against certain people. Medaka Box also has Misogi, though All Fiction makes him a walking NLF too. Regardless, I think MBverse is a decent contender and can certainly beat plenty of superheroes.

11. Umineko
Another sketchy universe that although I'm a fan of, I highly dislike seeing it wanked so hard sometimes and misinterpreted. First of all, I discount quite a few certain Witch powers as being perfectly executable in any situation, not just because doing otherwise is a NLF, but because the story directly CONTRADICTS some of them. Like if Lambdadelta really had the power to "kill with certainty" in any situation, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



she shouldn't have been so easily stomped by Featherine.


 And hell, Bernkastel's power is debunked too simply by the fact she's lost in situations her power should have been capable of pulling her a win. You could call these PIS or whatever you want, but I think they're pretty clear cases of the limits of their power. All of this being said, Umineko isn't a weak verse by any means, considering they still have some casual universal and multiversal feats thrown around. With bloodlust on, that pretty much makes things like Lambdadelta turning close to if not half the 15 into candy a pretty viable insta-win. Then again, I suppose that'd be like arguing Buu's Candy Beam would work on all of them, but Buu's magic isn't capable of universal-scale reality warping.



Anyway, as I said, this is before I've gone to take a closer look at the 15 blog entries. Just some of my immediate thoughts upon reading the thread. I'll make a more proper reply tomorrow or so.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 1, 2012)

> Everyone else on the list is just too fast for them to even hold a candle to, except -maybe- Thor, who beats them out in both firepower and durability to such an extent that he'd still stomp.


Thor is fast enough 



Zeed is never getting past Spectre, IIRC Digi-verse has only like 3+ mil universes and Zeed never even warped the majority of them (although he would destroy them all if his limiter is removed) .. Spectre operated with an infinite multiverse (at least pre-crisis,  idk if DC had an infinite multiverse post-crisis, probably)


----------



## Nevermind (May 1, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> There is no evidence that DBZ characters have 50x Jupiterbusters. This is based on buu's blast having the same power as the death star, and seeing as the death star's power is based on accelerating the debris to near-relativistic speeds, and there is no evidence the debris is travelling that fast in DBZ, it is nothing more than a planetbuster, not 50x jupiter.



Uh no.

You're either blind or just not looking.

What do we see with Kid Buu's blast? A huge explosion far larger than the planet's diameter followed by a large expanse of debris much more than twice the planet's original radius, the same as with the Death Star and the two have been compared for many years now. If it was just a planet buster it would take up to twenty minutes or more for the debris to spread that far.

So, wrong.

In fact you've been wrong more than once in this thread, since we didn't accept GM's Namek speed since it was based on human reactions for instance, along with other things.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 1, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Uh no.
> 
> You're either blind or just not looking.
> 
> ...


Do we have any evidence that it didn't take twenty minutes or more for the debris to spead that far? I never saw anything we could time it with. It could have taken several hours for all we know.The death star is a video, we can time it, and we know it didn't take twenty minutes. Buu's blast is not a video, I have seen no way of us timing it, so there is no evidence I have seen which takes it beyond a planetbuster.




> In fact you've been wrong more than once in this thread, since we didn't accept GM's Namek speed since it was based on human reactions for instance, along with other things.


Fair enough, you are wrong sometimes, right others. If I have done other things wrong I would appreciate knowing them.


----------



## Nevermind (May 1, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Do we have any evidence that it didn't take twenty minutes or more for the debris to spead that far? I never saw anything we could time it with. It could have taken several hours for all we know.The death star is a video, we can time it, and we know it didn't take twenty minutes. Buu's blast is not a video, I have seen no way of us timing it, so there is no evidence I have seen which takes it beyond a planetbuster.



Panel 1: Vanishing Ball hits.
Panel 2: Huge ass explosion.
Panel 3: Explosion dissipates, debris has already spread far beyond the original diameter.

Not only is it highly implied in the scan, unless you want to say the explosion took twenty minutes to dissipate, then yeah. Plus, there are sometimes where we just have to draw the line and use common sense. It obviously did not take twenty minutes, and you'd have to lowball the energy hundreds of times just to get it below Saturn busting, and literally many thousands of times to get it below Uranus/Neptune busting. So unless you want to be absurdly pedantic (which you seem to be), it is highly implied in the scans at any rate, and no one had issue with it.

I recall Viulu also mentioned Mr. Satan's freefall.

Edit: Goku also arrived on the World of the Kais in roughly the same time frame and they all looked into the crystal ball so it couldn't have, as a rule, taken that long.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 1, 2012)

> Goku also arrived on the World of the Kais in roughly the same time frame and they all looked into the crystal ball so it couldn't have, as a rule, taken that long.


^ this

no reason why Toriyama would randomly show us a shot of space where Earth used to be 20 minutes after the thing exploded


----------



## Banhammer (May 1, 2012)

a big ass light show is not representative of power actually


----------



## Banhammer (May 1, 2012)

if anything, it represents loss of power unto emissions of light


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 1, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> ^ this
> 
> no reason why Toriyama would randomly show us a shot of space where Earth used to be 20 minutes after the thing exploded





Nevermind said:


> Panel 1: Vanishing Ball hits.
> Panel 2: Huge ass explosion.
> Panel 3: Explosion dissipates, debris has already spread far beyond the original diameter.
> 
> ...


I really can't see why we can say that it took less than twenty minutes if we have no evidence that said it did. It taking less than a second, like in the death star meanwhile, also seems unlikely. The most likely number, from my perspective, seems like about half a minute, looking at the scan, but we cannot assume it is that won't take longer without an appropriate timescale. That was the reason piccalo's ki blast or gotenks' speed feat wasn't reletivistic, either, if I remember correctly?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 1, 2012)

well I looked it up and the shots of the planet-explosion and space are inbetween panels of Goku using *Instant* Transmission

if we follow the panel order it kind of doesn't really imply any significant time-frame has passed


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 1, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> well I looked it up and the shots of the planet-explosion and space are inbetween panels of Goku using *Instant* Transmission
> 
> if we follow the panel order it kind of doesn't really imply any significant time-frame has passed



But IT is kind of instant, so they must have been after goku arrived to some degree.


----------



## Nevermind (May 1, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> I really can't see why we can say that it took less than twenty minutes if we have no evidence that said it did. It taking less than a second, like in the death star meanwhile, also seems unlikely. The most likely number, from my perspective, seems like about half a minute, looking at the scan, but we cannot assume it is that won't take longer without an appropriate timescale.



So you're just being absurdly pedantic, got it. Good thing everyone else sees it. And even if it was that time frame (which isn't really implied) it would still be well into the range we're talking about. There's no reason to assume it took a significant time based on what we saw on panel.

Hell if I want to go that route I can question counting frames as an accurate measurement. Several posters such as Basilikos had problems with that method.



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> That was the reason piccalo's ki blast or gotenks' speed feat wasn't reletivistic, either, if I remember correctly?



What.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 1, 2012)

> Hell if I want to go that route I can question counting frames as an accurate measurement. Several posters such as Basilikos had problems with that method.


to be honest me too .. especially when the end timeframe for a calc is 1-2 frames

but that's another matter




> But IT is kind of instant, so they must have been after goku arrived to some degree.


well the panel *is* BEFORE .. that's not something to dismiss


also, for the record, whenever fiction says instant I don't *really* think it takes literally *0* seconds ... that means the character exists in 2 points of spacetime simultaneously (of course if it's plausible for him to have omnipresence then it's possible)

maybe it's a nanosecond or a femtosecond or whatever, but some time passes 

not relevant here though




I can't imagine it taking any significant amount of time (elder Kai says almost right away after they arrive that Earth is completely destroyed .. they also look in the crystal ball and see nothing, I'm assuming, empty space where it used to be) .. and we have no basis to accurately guess any time-frame (30 seconds or 20 minutes or anything), so going by what we have it should be close to what was calced


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 1, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> So you're just being absurdly pedantic, got it. Good thing everyone else sees it. And even if it was that time frame (which isn't really implied) it would still be well into the range we're talking about.


From the scan, to me it does look like about 30 seconds. But it isn't about what thisngs "look like". It's about how long things have been timed to take.
And no, it wouldn't be in "the range we are talking about", if the range you are talking about is multi-large planet level.
In the original star wars calc, it took 0.83 seconds. If it took 30 seconds, it took 36 times longer. Because time is inversely proportional to velocity, it should have a 36 times smaller velocity. The square of the velocity is proportional to the energy, so it will have 36^2=1300 times less energy.
1e38/1300=7.7*10^34J, which would be lower than saturn's GBE, making it large planet buster rather than multi large planet buster.




> There's no reason to assume it took a significant time based on what we saw on panel.


And there is no reason to assume it didn't.



> Hell if I want to go that route I can question counting frames as an accurate measurement. Several posters such as Basilikos had problems with that method.


When exactly did we allow counting frames as an accurate measurement?



> What.


Maybe not with gotenks, but Piccalo's moonbuster looks like it took about 5 seconds and the moon is 1 light-second away.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 1, 2012)

> but Piccalo's moonbuster looks like it took about 5 seconds and the moon is 1 light-second away.


Chaos pointed out to me that a dust cloud had enough time to settle before the moon blew up from his blast


----------



## Nevermind (May 1, 2012)

Actually Brohan and Chaos got FTL times based on the moon buster.

But all I'm really seeing right now is "to me it looks this way."

So I can see where this is going.

And yes, there is reason to assume it didn't as we pointed out and as posters have accepted for years.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 1, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> to be honest me too .. especially when the end timeframe for a calc is 1-2 frames
> 
> but that's another matter
> 
> ...



Well it is relevent here. If the explosion took a nanosecond, it would be roughly 10^18 times more destructive than the death star, which would give 10^56J, which is a fiftyith of the gravitaional binding energy of a galaxy cluster according to this: 
So it makes a major difference.





> I can't imagine it taking any significant amount of time (elder Kai says almost right away after they arrive that Earth is completely destroyed .. they also look in the crystal ball and see nothing, I'm assuming, empty space where it used to be) .. and we have no basis to accurately guess any time-frame (30 seconds or 20 minutes or anything), so going by what we have it should be close to what was calced


There is a bit where they zoom out which is, presumably, time passing.
blast. So it is still not paticularly quantifiable.


----------



## Nevermind (May 1, 2012)

That's the spread of the debris, not zooming out, and it happens right after the explosion dissipates.

And a nanosecond now? Stop being absurdly pedantic.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 1, 2012)

> Well it is relevent here. If the explosion took a nanosecond, it would be roughly 10^18 times more destructive than the death star, which would give 10^56J, which is a fiftyith of the gravitaional binding energy of a galaxy cluster according to this:
> So it makes a major difference.


I didn't say the explosion took a nanosecond, that was just a random example for a different matter

no need to make a calc of it


----------



## Nevermind (May 1, 2012)

Oh yeah, counting frames: the SD.net calc itself does it. Most of the Nanoha calcs do it too, along with some others.

Which kind of confirms that you're a bit out of the loop regarding procedure with some of the stuff here.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (May 1, 2012)

I have to agree with him to an extent. With no way to get a time frame, we're basically just making up an arbitrary yield based on what it vaguely resembles. It clearly didn't take twenty minutes, though, and Buu in any form is well above baseline planet busting.

What's the Mr. Satan thing you mentioned before though, Nevermind? Sounds like that could be used to get something more accurate.


----------



## Nevermind (May 1, 2012)

He freefell to the World of the Kais from some feet in the air.

Afterward Elder Kai looks into the globe and the planet is completely dispersed.

But hell, the explosion dispersed before that and you see the debris from far beyond the original diameter so, yeah. This is pretty old stuff.

Anyway I've asked Chaos and Brohan to weigh in.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 1, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Oh yeah, counting frames: the SD.net calc itself does it. Most of the Nanoha calcs do it too, along with some others.
> 
> Which kind of confirms that you're a bit out of the loop regarding procedure with some of the stuff here.



I thought you meant counting manga frames. Like what they do in MvC. 
Never mind.


----------



## Toriko (May 1, 2012)

I could calculate the exact freefall time if we're going to start bitching over this pretty straightforward feat.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (May 1, 2012)

Nevermind said something about the height being average human height or whatever.

sqrt((1.7*2)/9.8) = *0.589 seconds*.

And yes, the argument against the feat was fucking retarded.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (May 1, 2012)

to "speak to his sword"

Must have been something from the anime, as I'm not sure how you could get any kind of time frame from that.

Although, something else to consider is that the Elder Kai claims the Earth was completely destroyed in this translation, and he appears to be correct judging from the shots of Buu in space afterwards. When Namek exploded, there was still plenty of debris left over that could easily be seen with the naked eye. When Buu reforms in space, there's no trace of the Earth at all, which could suggest that his blast outright vaporized it all.

And that requires tons more energy than basic planet busting anyway.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 2, 2012)

Brohan said:


> I could calculate the exact freefall time if we're going to start bitching over this pretty straightforward feat.



I *finally* get it now. I don't believe it took me so long. 
I didn't notice that goku was falling, that was what was confusing me.
Basically what happens is:
-Goku is flying in the air
-Goku teleports away
-Goku appears at the same height he started in the other planet
-Planet blows up and debris cloud expands.
-Goku falls from the distance he was up in the air and lands.

There are several problems with this, such as I can't see how you can tell what height he was at, and even if you could, he may not necessarily be at the same height that he started at, he has teleported from the ground to inside a plane before, but it is an awful lot better than what it was before, when I couldn't see any quantifiable way of finding a timeframe.

Before, because I didn't see the fall thing, I though it was:

-Goku teleports away
-Because IT is instantaneous, goku instantly appears on the other planet
-Planet explodes
-Goku stands around talking for an unquantifiable amount of time.
-As he talks, the debris cloud expands.
-the debris cloud is fully expanded
-They all stop talking and look at the crystal ball

Which, frankly, would be unquantifiable.
Oh well. At least I didn't spend 17 pages spouting irrelevant pressure science and not realizing the real debate is whether the inside of a bubble is pressurized air or not.

Anyway, back to before the tangent:


> One thing I was slightly curious about - does Martian Manhunter have a set speed for his telepathy hax? Because that was what I figured was his easiest way to stomp DBZ, assuming it's basically instantaneous.


Well he's able to connect the JLA in terms of communication using telepathy when they are different planets, so I'm pretty sure it is instantaneous, otherwise conversations would be a bit tricky.


----------



## Heavenly King (May 3, 2012)

still laughing at dbz characters throwing the hulk into space


----------



## feebas_factor (May 3, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> still laughing at dbz characters throwing the hulk into space



Not sure why, unless you're really sold on Hulk having FTL/relativistic reaction times, and therefore mean it's a really bad idea for them to try and risk putting themselves in melee range (fair enough).

But it's not like they can't do it physically.



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Well he's able to connect the JLA in terms of communication using telepathy when they are different planets, so I'm pretty sure it is instantaneous, otherwise conversations would be a bit tricky.



I was thinking more in terms of specifically mind-fucking opponents, but I guess it's not too much of a stretch to infer that's only limited by his mental reaction time then.


----------



## Cooler (May 3, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> still laughing at dbz characters throwing the hulk into space



Throwing someone of the Hulk's weight into space isn't an issue so I don't see why it's laughable unless you mean simply that it's suicidal for them to get that close.


----------



## Gone (May 3, 2012)

I kind of wonder if the writers of these fictions actually take things like the time it takes the debris to clear into account when they come up with these planet exploding scenes? I mean we could very well be talking out of our asses with calcs like this, not that it really matters...


----------



## Endless Mike (May 3, 2012)

Oh FFS, I thought the DBZ wankers had been purged from the OBD years ago 

Anyway, *cracks knuckles*



Cooler said:


> Besides that even if you're a massive kid nerfer the boys have to be in the few millions in base, enough to effortlessly kill any normal human.



In the "Yo! Son Goku and his Friends Return!" TV special (which was written by Toriyama), it showed them both having PLs of only several hundred thousand in base IIRC.



Surtur said:


> But he really wouldn't have a chance to get mad enough.



Um, what? He can get mad as fast as he can think.



> As for Firestorm..*shrugs* I'd heard it said that he was killed by getting stabbed with a sword and then exploding, though there's been a few different versions of the guy so that could of been one of the weaker ones.



That was PIS on the level of Black Panther armbarring Surfer and Spider-Man beating Firelord.



Surtur said:


> So what's stopping them from tossing him into space at speeds too fast for him to react to?



Because they're not too fast for him to react to.



> Though yes, there are actually characters in DBZ who can survive planetary destruction.



Only on the surface, not taking one head-on. And even then they can only do it if they have regeneration or get rebuilt into cyborgs.



Surtur said:


> Characters with super speed get tagged all the time by characters much slower then them.
> 
> I'd be quite curious for any feats for Hulk showing FTL reflexes that don't involve him fighting the Silver Surfer(who doesn't always use his speed anyways).



Maybe not FTL, but there was this robot that was blitzing Northstar and Nova all across the American landmass, and Hulk came in and tore it apart in a few punches.

Hulk was also recently able to perceive a nuke vaporizing Bruce Banner's body in slow motion, near ground zero - an event which would have only taken nanoseconds.



> Even Quicksilver was blitzing the Hulk just fine until the standard speedster pis of "Guy sticks out arm and speedster runs into it" was pulled.



So in other words, Hulk reacted to him, but you're ignoring that part 



Surtur said:


> Which he can't do.



Prove it. They're not going to grab him and fly over 100 kilometers into the atmosphere before he can move his freaking arms.



> The argument that people faster then Hulk could blitz him and toss him into space is inane?



Prove they're faster. There are only a few reliable DBZ speed calcs, and if I want to play the same game you're doing, I can dismiss them for being outliers/rare instances. Then you have nothing to stand on.



> Perhaps he could take Frieza down that way, but I'm not exactly sure how a thunderclap is going to kill Cell or Buu.



Scatter them beyond their ability to regenerate.



> Of course Buu could just absorb Hulk and that would be the end of that.



Now I know you're trolling. Hulk has resisted all kinds of alien lifeforms, magical beings, and reality warpers trying to fuck with his body, he would shake that shit off casually.



Surtur said:


> ...why?  He's never been presented as someone particularly fast.  Sure, he's fast for a thing his size, but he doesn't have speed anywhere near DBZ characters.



Prove it. Show your math. If you want to rely on a few calcs for DBZ speed, I can show you just as many examples of Hulk being just as fast or faster - if you want to call them PIS and dismiss them, I can do the same for your side.

This is the problem with DBZtards - they make statements like



> He's never been *presented* as someone particularly fast



And think they actually mean something. Note the word I bolded. They only care about superficial detail, like blurry lines and afterimages, and just assume that means the characters drawn with that art style are faster than characters drawn without it, nevermind the fact that characters in other manga and comics that are only peak human are often drawn with the same effects.

If you want to claim that one character is faster than another, you have to actually prove it, not just act like it's self-evident.



> It's a better idea then simply standing there and letting Hulk destroy the planet.  Not to mention they will be in no danger since Hulk won't be able to react to them.



Despite the fact that he has many feats of reacting to people and things much faster than any DBZ character could ever hope to be.



> Based on?



Based on his feats. Now show feats/calculations that prove they could blitz him.



> Huh? Just power scaling off Tao Pai Pai's feats alone shows they are more then strong enough.



If he's still in the atmosphere he propels himself back with a thunderclap.



> Though it really doesn't matter if they couldn't, they could toss him in the air and blast him into space.



They try and he grabs the blast and tosses it back at them.



Surtur said:


> Tao Pai Pai could toss stone pillars a vast distance and high end Z fighters are so much more powerful then him it's not even funny.



Quantify how much more powerful, via physical strength. 

You want to base everything on one feat from a character that only happened once and is one of the best physical feats in the manga, despite supposedly much stronger characters rarely showing anything close to that, but then dismiss Hulk tagging Surfer and the like - hypocrisy at its finest.



> Yes, and I am asking what feats he has to make you think this.  Master Roshi is a casual bullet timer.  People like Cell are literally thousands of times more powerful.



Don't just make up numbers, show the math you used to calculate Cell's speed.



> Krillin and Roshi were so fast they had an entire fight in the span of a second, including them flat out stopping during this to plan out strategies and such.  What's Hulk done on that level?



That feat was calced at only transonic. Stop being so impressed by superficial appearances and try using science and math.



Surtur said:


> So the Tao Pai Pai feat and power scaling that doesn't get you to space tossing strength?  I believe he tossed a stone pillar like 2000 kilometers.



So Hulk tagging Surfer doesn't get you FTL reactions? I believe Surfer is FTL.

See the double standard? 



> Ok so name these feats please.  It shouldn't be hard if he is legitimately as fast as you claim.  Him reacting to Iron Man doesn't put him on the level of high end Z fighters.



Considering Iron Man can react in picoseconds, call his armor down from orbit fast enough to intercept bullets shot from a few meters in front of him, fly to the sun in a matter of minutes, and outrun a collapsing black hole, that makes him faster than any DBZ character.



> If simply fighting a person with super speed equates to being on their level then by your logic Hulk is indeed Silver Surfer level.



If simply being in the same series as a person with a good feat equates to being on their level then Hulk gets all of the feats of everyone considered weaker than him. Doesn't work that way.



> Give me a speed feat that doesn't involve fighting another character who may or may not be using their speed.  Since characters do that all the time, Deathstroke just became FTL if that is the criteria for speed.



By that logic Master Roshi is faster than Buu as Buu has no speed feats that aren't dependent on fighting other characters.



> EDIT: Just to note we have feats of characters slapping back ki blasts with such force they go through one side of the planet and out the other.(Happened in one of the Gotenks fights IIRC, or at least occurred during the Buu Saga)  I'm failing to see how high end Z fighters would not be capable of tossing Hulk into space.



That's not a strength feat, that's due to the properties of ki - it's destructive energy, not a physical object.



> 2nd EDIT: Just wanted to add one more thing, if we are indeed saying that simply fighting someone with super speed a bunch of times equates to being as fast as then..does that mean anyone who has fought the Hulk a bunch of times is now way way above bullet timing?  Abomination, for instance..bullet timer?



Sure, why not. After all, that's the same logic you apply to DBZ. Buu never dodged a bullet, I guess he is too slow to do so.



> Also, why has Hulk never once used his reaction time in a combat situation?  It goes a step beyond simple PIS when he's never done it even once.



Um... he has? That's the whole point of the examples of him tagging fast characters.



> After all, if he is quick enough to react to Z fighters and actually destroy the planet before they do anything..that means he's both reacting and moving his body at highly fast speeds.



Yeah, so?



Nevermind said:


> Would have been easier if you did a recap of all of them. Also you probably shouldn't have listed DBZ since well, it invites a shit storm when going up against comics. Your gauntlet is rather out of order as well.



I said it was in no particular order


----------



## Endless Mike (May 3, 2012)

Part 2 (Continued):




Surtur said:


> I agree, and a character with legitimate super speed would have plenty of instances of using it, correct?



Yep. So I guess 99% of DBZ characters don't have super speed, as they have no speed feats that aren't measured against other characters.



> This is why Deathstroke isn't granted FTL reflexes, because he doesn't have any feats(besides Flash encounters) that show these supposed reflexes.
> 
> Unless, wait..is he granted those reflexes here?(Serious question)



That's different. Deathstroke is peak human - we know the limits of his powers and we know that fight was full of PIS/CIS (Kyle deciding to just punch him without even making a construct, for example). If you really want to try to rationalize it would be due to Flash being a retard in that instance.

The Hulk, on the other hand, has no clearly defined limits to his powers - we cannot clearly say "this is what he can do, and what he can't do" - so if he does something, unless there is a serious reason to doubt the circumstances, we accept that he can do it.



> Check back 2 pages in this thread and you will unfortunately see someone make just such a claim.



Could he tag Surfer if Surfer was going all - out and seriously was doing everything he could to avoid being tagged?

Highly doubtful.

But the fact remains that Surfer has attacked him at high speed, been tagged, and been surprised by his speed. This puts his reactions at least as high as anything in DBZ.



> I don't see what's funny about it.  The idea was that they are faster then him



Something you have continually failed to prove. Instead of just trying to downplay the Hulk's reactions, why don't you try actually quantifying DBZ speeds?

Probably because you know if you do, then I could use the same downplaying tactics you're using to dismiss them.



Surtur said:


> Honestly, if every single character just immediately fired off their strongest attack at him..that should do it.



Because when you read "character vs. verse" it means they are dropped in a flat plain with no warning and every single character of the verse is completely aware of their presence and they are all surrounding them and attacking immediately, right? 

That's not exactly what I had in mind when making this thread.



> At the very least it would put him down long enough for them to get close.  Why is this important?  Since, IIRC, there was a character in Dragonball whose special power was turning people into carrots or something.



And Hulk has resisted transmutation. GTFO of here with that shit.



> Though I guess it's possible Hulk has transmutation resistance.



He does. You want scans?



> Then what about things like Buu absorbing him?  He has no way to escape from that.  The only time anyone did was due to the person being a combination of two people and then being absorbed.



Vision tried to phase inside of him and got blasted back out. Hundreds of souls tried infecting his body and got blasted back out. Alien parasites tried merging with him and got blasted back out.

Buu gets blasted back out.



Surtur said:


> I don't doubt it, but there's a lot of weird powers that were shown in Dragonball.  Probably in Dragonball GT as well, but I stopped watching after seeing Vegeta with his "I want to molest you" mustache.



GT isn't canon.



Cthulhu-versailles said:


> More seriously, I'm wondering how a lot of these characters would do in Star trek. Ignoring Q because he makes the heroes journey mute,



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no. At most he could beat 8, but he probably even wouldn't get past 14 - he has shown no telepathy resistance.



> it would be a pain in the ass for quite a few of them to even cross the Delta Quadron.



Except most of them could do it in an instant...



> Furthermore, if we're including the future temporal tech, it's possible they'd just get BFR.



Because none of them can travel through time, right?

Oh wait.



> In fact, even excluding both that stuff, Star Trek should still have that err ?Omega? energy said to be able to solar system bust in large quantities



No, it just makes warp drive impossible to use.



> and the massive monster that cause illusions nigh solar system wide.



J'onn schools that thing in a mental battle.



> Hell, how would many of the heroes even reach some of the dimension or special areas.



...by using their powers to cross dimensions.



> All in all, excluding Solar man as I don't know shit about him, only Spectre stands a chance against Star Trek. However, I'mma go with Q fucking his shit up. And I know how strong spectre can get...but fuck it



*insert ryoma here*



> Edit: SS probably blast like 98% of Star Trek, but Q turns him into a carot.



Because he's shown transmutation of beings with cosmic power and resistance to it before, right? 



feebas_factor said:


> One thing I was slightly curious about - does Martian Manhunter have a set speed for his telepathy hax? Because that was what I figured was his easiest way to stomp DBZ, assuming it's basically instantaneous.



It's been able to cross from the Fourth World (another dimension) to Earth instantly. So yeah.



Nevermind said:


> Uh no.
> 
> You're either blind or just not looking.
> 
> What do we see with Kid Buu's blast? A huge explosion far larger than the planet's diameter followed by a large expanse of debris much more than twice the planet's original radius,



Um, excuse me? How can you tell this? It shows glowing debris but we have no idea how large it is compared to the original size of the planet.

Honestly, people are taking the Death Star comparison way too seriously. I originally said it might be comparable, due to how fast it seemed to happen... that's all.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Although, something else to consider is that the Elder Kai claims the Earth was completely destroyed in this translation, and he appears to be correct judging from the shots of Buu in space afterwards. When Namek exploded, there was still plenty of debris left over that could easily be seen with the naked eye. When Buu reforms in space, there's no trace of the Earth at all, which could suggest that his blast outright vaporized it all.



We can see glowing debris in the aftermath..



> And that requires tons more energy than basic planet busting anyway.



Vaporizing a planet actually requires only about 10% of the energy needed to mass scatter it - you can vaporize it but not mass scatter it, in which case it would turn into a ball of vaporized gas but its gravity would still hold it together.


----------



## Moonbeam Funk (May 3, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> I kind of wonder if the writers of these fictions actually take things like the time it takes the debris to clear into account when they come up with these planet exploding scenes? I mean we could very well be talking out of our asses with calcs like this, not that it really matters...


To be honest, this is EXACTLY one of the reasons I hate calcs in general. Most of the time it kinda puts numbers on characters that the authors never intend or think about at all when writing/drawing. Seems kinda silly to me, but OBD's pretty calc-heavy, so there's not anything I can do regarding that.


----------



## Endless Mike (May 3, 2012)

Authors never intended their characters to be pit in hypothetical battles against the characters of other series in the first place, so if you really cared about what the authors intended you wouldn't be verses debating at all.


----------



## Moonbeam Funk (May 3, 2012)

In my opinion there's a clear difference, but I won't continue on that tangent since it'd be off-topic.

On a related note, whether DBZ could beat Hulk or not is kind irrelevant as a whole since there's 14 other heroes that can DEFINITELY beat the entirety of DBZ. I love DBZ, but the verse is so ridiculously outmatched here it's not even funny. If the 15 are losing at all, it's not gonna be to them.


----------



## Endless Mike (May 3, 2012)

Yes I know, I was just addressing many of the fallacious arguments used by Surtur and others.

Funny how we get a troll named Thor, then a similar troll named after one of his enemies


----------



## Emperor Joker (May 3, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Yes I know, I was just addressing many of the fallacious arguments used by Surtur and others.
> 
> Funny how we get a troll named Thor, then a similar troll named after one of his enemies



Thor was purposefully trolling though...Surtur is apparently from CBR and IWD knows him.

it's more of a case of Surtur's style of debate not meshing with ours


----------



## Endless Mike (May 3, 2012)

Well many of his arguments seem to remind me of Thor's


----------



## Fang (May 3, 2012)

He will when he starts posting scans that directly and blatantly contradict what he says. Remember the Luke vs Iron-Man thread?


----------



## Cooler (May 3, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> In the "Yo! Son Goku and his Friends Return!" TV special (which was written by Toriyama), it showed them both having PLs of only several hundred thousand in base IIRC.



Toriyama didn't write it, IIRC it was only based on something he came up with. The kids having PL's in base of only several hundred thousand is laughable and contradicted by the Boo saga anyway. If you want to try and use it then it almost works if Abo and Kabo are full power Freeza tier.


----------



## Endless Mike (May 3, 2012)

Are you sure? I'd like to see a source on the information of who wrote it, because I keep hearing it was written directly by Toriyama.

Also I think both of those aliens were stated to be stronger than Frieza individually - fused they would be even stronger.


----------



## Cooler (May 3, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Are you sure? I'd like to see a source on the information of who wrote it, because I keep hearing it was written directly by Toriyama.
> 
> Also I think both of those aliens were stated to be stronger than Frieza individually - fused they would be even stronger.



On Kanzentai it says the story was supervised by AT, not sure what that means exactly. I tend to treat it like secondary canon.

<click>

Individually they're stated to be as strong as Freeza, the kids dominate them casually though aside from a couple of tricks IIRC. 

It's a bit crazy with placement of characters though, SSJ Goku appears to be > SSJ Gotenks after only a couple of years. I'd take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## Endless Mike (May 3, 2012)

Here it says Toriyama wrote the story and the other guy wrote the screenplay: !!

I always got the idea in the original manga that SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks anyway, based on discussion between Kaioshin and Goku, IIRC Kaioshin asked him "So Gotenks is even stronger than you?" And Goku said "Well I wouldn't say stronger..." or something. I could be wrong though.


----------



## Amae (May 3, 2012)

Goten and Trunks were suppressed when their power levels were read, anyway.

Kaioshin never said that, to my knowledge.


----------



## Gunners (May 3, 2012)

Goku solos them all, come at me.


----------



## Cooler (May 3, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Here it says Toriyama wrote the story and the other guy wrote the screenplay: !!
> 
> I always got the idea in the original manga that SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks anyway, based on discussion between Kaioshin and Goku, IIRC Kaioshin asked him "So Gotenks is even stronger than you?" And Goku said "Well I wouldn't say stronger..." or something. I could be wrong though.



That's the dragonball wiki though man, not the most reliable source. If in doubt probably best to not take anything from Yo Son Goku and Friends IMO.

Goku never said that, IIRC the question was more about SSJ3 then the strength of the kids compared to Goku. 

Link removed

There's only one frame where Goku comments on the fight. The scanslation doesn't really have anything. IIRC Kaioshin is asking about SSJ3 and Goku says it's incredible the boys have it when he took years to master it. But yeah scanslation's are Shit with a capital S anyway.

There are multiple implications putting just SSJ Gotenks on SSJ3 Goku's level (like Goku saying he told Boo someone even stronger would appear to fight him in 2 days/Him stating the fused boys could handle Fat Boo/ Piccolo only curious about Gotenks speed not power), even if you don't want to use those Goku flatout said Super Boo would kill him. So yeah at the very least SSJ3 Gotenks is rather big step ahead of SSJ3 Goku. If you take the implications and statements putting SSJ Gotenks on SSJ3 Goku's level pre ROSAT the gap gets stupidly big.


----------



## Endless Mike (May 3, 2012)

Link isn't working... and I think it's pretty obvious that Goku expected them to reach the  higher levels, in fact he said that he could have beaten Fat Buu but wanted to give the others a chance. Also Gotenks before SSJ3 got easily off-paneled by Fat Buu (I don't think he would have been stupid enough to not use at least SSJ1 in that fight).


----------



## Cooler (May 3, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Link isn't working... and I think it's pretty obvious that Goku expected them to reach the  higher levels, in fact he said that he could have beaten Fat Buu but wanted to give the others a chance. Also Gotenks before SSJ3 got easily off-paneled by Fat Buu (I don't think he would have been stupid enough to not use at least SSJ1 in that fight).



Damn link, it's chapter 496 on Manga Reader.

No he wasn't, he explicitely said no to them using the ROSAT. You think he banked on them learning the dance perfectly and transforming multiple times in 2 days? And Piccolo was surprised when Gotenks went SSJ after merging in the ROSAT. So yeah Base Gotenks ONLY fought Fat Boo.


----------



## Ebisuforlife (May 3, 2012)

SSJ2 Majin Vegeta got his ass handed by Fat Buu.

Goku needed SSJ3 to stall Fat Buu, yet he's confident that SSJ1 Gotenks can at least fight Buu on equal grounds.

And that's all pre to the massive power up in the time chamber, which has Piccolo stating that even Base Gotenks might have a chance against Buu now.

SSJ is a multiplier to base. If SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks, then SSJ1 Goku > SSJ1 Gotenks as well? 

You would have to be utterly retarded to suggest that SSJ3 Gotenks isn't stronger than SSJ3 Goku.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (May 3, 2012)

There's also the much simpler fact that Goku outright stated that Super Buu was way too strong for him and Vegeta, while SSJ3 Gotenks was about equal with him.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (May 3, 2012)

Why are we discussing who's superior between gotenks and goku anyway?


----------



## Moonbeam Funk (May 3, 2012)

Because for some reason in this thread, some posters can't see most of the verses mentioned in the OP. All they see is DBZ.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 3, 2012)

Solar clears this like a baws 


probably, idk about Who-verse


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (May 3, 2012)

The Who-verse has quite a few multiversals. Not to mention time travel...

Hold up. I'll look through the hero list again.

If the multiverses that Solar delt with were infinite (as I'm assuming they are), he should clear everyone here, yeah.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (May 3, 2012)

Whoverse's multiverse is likely infinite too. It's one of those 'every single thing everyone does creates a new universe' multiverses.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (May 3, 2012)

I know. However, no one being has complete control over that Multiverse.


----------



## All Star Rogue (May 3, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> The Hulk, on the other hand, has no clearly defined limits to his powers - we cannot clearly say "this is what he can do, and what he can't do" - so if he does something, unless there is a serious reason to doubt the circumstances, we accept that he can do it.


Hmm...



Endless Mike said:


> Ajimu, on the other hand, has no clearly defined limits to her powers - we cannot clearly say "this is what she can do, and what she can't do" - so if she does something, unless there is a serious reason to doubt the circumstances, we accept that she can do it.


There we go, sounds legit. What do you guys think?


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 3, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> I know. However, no one being has complete control over that Multiverse.



It nearly got destroyed more than once, though. Depends if you allow prep and or the verse in it's peak.


----------



## Endless Mike (May 3, 2012)

All Star Rogue said:


> Hmm...
> 
> 
> There we go, sounds legit. What do you guys think?



Way to misread it, my information was referring to stuff the Hulk had actually *done*. I didn't say something retarded like "Hulk's strength has no limit so if he's angry enough he can punch out the Living Tribunal", I said "If the Hulk has actually *done something* (like react to fast characters) there's no reason to deny he can do it based on his known powerset".


----------



## Heavenly King (May 3, 2012)

Cooler said:


> Throwing someone of the Hulk's weight into space isn't an issue so I don't see why it's laughable unless you mean simply that it's suicidal for them to get that close.



It is very suicidal indeed for them to try to attack and throw him off the planet. remember this is WW HULK we are talking about here


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (May 3, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Could have been Rulk (probabaly Loeb Rulk), then again Hulk caan survive in space so long as his breath lasts


In WWH when they are headed towards Earth on the stone ship, Hulk was getting so mad that he almost went after one of the Warbound and to calm himself some, he went outside and sat on the nose of the ship to meditate.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (May 4, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> It nearly got destroyed more than once, though. Depends if you allow prep and or the verse in it's peak.



The ways in which it nearly gets destroyed require a lot of prep and are generally rather easy (relatively speaking) to stop.

For one example, a bloodlusted Solar could deal with the Reality bomb by simply blowing up a planet, moving the planets back, or wait in the cascade for it to kill the rest of existence, then kill the Daleks.


----------



## Ebisuforlife (May 4, 2012)

Why would they resort throwing Hulk to space? If fast enough, Buu can teleport Hulk to other side of the universe. Not saying they are.


----------



## feebas_factor (May 4, 2012)

Ebisuforlife said:


> Why would they resort throwing Hulk to space? If fast enough, Buu can teleport Hulk to other side of the universe. Not saying they are.



For all the debate that's been churned up over whether they could toss him or not, it does seem like there's probably some more effective methods DBZverse could be attempting anyway.


----------



## Gone (May 4, 2012)

Couldnt Ginyu body swap the Hulk? Hes resisted telepathy before, but does he have any kind of resistance to that sort of thing? Besides the whole "Hulk will just get mad and force him out" crap. I mean didnt Loki posses him once for a while? Even if Hulk eventually won free I would think there would be time enough for Ginyu to jump his giant green ass into space or something.


----------



## Moonbeam Funk (May 4, 2012)

I dunno how Hulk could really force him out. He's apparently resistant to being possessed, but Ginyu's not getting inside of Hulk's mind while Hulk's still there. He'd also be putting Hulk in his old body. That might work unless Hulk has some sort of specific immunity to that.


----------



## Heavenly King (May 4, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Couldnt Ginyu body swap the Hulk? Hes resisted telepathy before, but does he have any kind of resistance to that sort of thing? Besides the whole "Hulk will just get mad and force him out" crap. I mean didnt Loki posses him once for a while? Even if Hulk eventually won free I would think there would be time enough for Ginyu to jump his giant green ass into space or something.



Ginyu would be dumb enough to try to use the hulk's body to beat everyone else. Giving the hulk enough time to take his body back for him




Moonbeam Funk said:


> I dunno how Hulk could really force him out. He's apparently resistant to being possessed, but Ginyu's not getting inside of Hulk's mind while Hulk's still there. He'd also be putting Hulk in his old body. That might work unless Hulk has some sort of specific immunity to that.



dr strange and others tried all types of ways to stop the hulk and it didn't work. Ginyu isn't taken the hulks body over at all


----------



## Moonbeam Funk (May 4, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> Ginyu would be dumb enough to try to use the hulk's body to beat everyone else. Giving the hulk enough time to take his body back for him


Except CIS is off, so Ginyu would be legitimately trying to beat Hulk, not his own verse. Also, how the hell would Hulk get his body back after that?



Heavenly King said:


> dr strange and others tried all types of ways to stop the hulk and it didn't work. Ginyu isn't taken the hulks body over at all


But did they try swapping bodies with him? 

Also, keep in mind Ginyu's Body Swap isn't magic, so Hulk's magic resistance doesn't come into play either.


----------



## Gone (May 4, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> dr strange and others tried all types of ways to stop the hulk and it didn't work. Ginyu isn't taken the hulks body over at all



WWH was so PIS and CIS ridden, Strange himself admitted he could have just waved his hand and sent the Hulk to the other side of the universe, or just killed him, but he simply chose not to.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 4, 2012)

Banner's multiple personalities might kick the shit out of Ginyu

idk how that would work


----------



## Gone (May 4, 2012)

There are other ways to BFR or otherwise deal with the Hulk besides getting close anyway. Other than Ginyus body swap theres Guldos time stop, planet busting, turn him into a candy (idk if he has some kind of resistance to that), or just have everybody spam ki blasts at the same time.

Shit if the entire DBZ verse includes the dragons, either one could just effortlessly BFR him to another galaxy, or maybe even turn him back into Banner or kill him (can the dragons kill? I forget)


----------



## Moonbeam Funk (May 4, 2012)

Black Star Dragonballs can kill, but GT's non-canon.

Also, Hulk has resistance/immunity to time manipulation and transmutation apparently, though I don't know to what degree.


----------



## Heavenly King (May 4, 2012)

Moonbeam Funk said:


> Except CIS is off, so Ginyu would be legitimately trying to beat Hulk, not his own verse. Also, how the hell would Hulk get his body back after that?
> 
> 
> But did they try swapping bodies with him?
> ...



Banner's multiple personalities would destroyed ginyu. I wonder what the body swap would fall under any way



Ryjacork said:


> WWH was so PIS and CIS ridden, Strange himself admitted he could have just waved his hand and sent the Hulk to the other side of the universe, or just killed him, but he simply chose not to.



yes strange could have killed him and he have sent to many of places before and the hulk has came back many of times



Fluttershy said:


> Banner's multiple personalities might kick the shit out of Ginyu
> 
> idk how that would work



Ginyu would be in some hot water



Ryjacork said:


> There are other ways to BFR or otherwise deal with the Hulk besides getting close anyway. Other than Ginyus body swap theres Guldos time stop, planet busting, turn him into a candy (idk if he has some kind of resistance to that), or just have everybody spam ki blasts at the same time.
> 
> Shit if the entire DBZ verse includes the dragons, either one could just effortlessly BFR him to another galaxy, or maybe even turn him back into Banner or kill him (can the dragons kill? I forget)



1. planet buster will only piss him off more
2. even if Guldo was to stop time. what the hell is that going to do? 
3. Buu's magic isn't going turn hulk into anything


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## eaebiakuya (May 4, 2012)

What is the best Hulk durability feat ?

Savage Hulk (not WWH or WB) can survive to a multiple planet bust attacks at same time ?


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## Moonbeam Funk (May 4, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> Banner's multiple personalities would destroyed ginyu. I wonder what the body swap would fall under any way


I'm not sure. I guess it depends on whether Body Swap would switch out both of Banner's "souls/personalities", or if it'd just swap with the one being used. After all, Ginyu's never used it on someone with more than one "mind", so...

I'm still dunno what Body Swap would fall under though, it may not be ki or magic. Guldo's timestop doesn't fall under either of those, nor does telekinesis and some other DBZ abilities.

Speaking of which, Devilman's beam would've been nice here, except that all it does is blow up the heart, which quite a few of the 15 can survive and regen from. So much for that.

Basically DBZ's not beating Hulk in a straight fight, but if they're REALLY lucky they might be able to catch him with some kind of trick. Even after that, MM stomps them anyway. As I said before, getting hung up on Hulk vs DBZverse is defeating the purpose of this thread. It'd be nice if we could just settle it and move on.


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## Emperor Joker (May 4, 2012)

Moonbeam Funk said:


> *I'm not sure. I guess it depends on whether Body Swap would switch out both of Banner's "souls/personalities", or if it'd just swap with the one being used*. After all, Ginyu's never used it on someone with more than one "mind", so...
> 
> I'm still dunno what Body Swap would fall under though, it may not be ki or magic. Guldo's timestop doesn't fall under either of those, nor does telekinesis and some other DBZ abilities.
> 
> ...



There's more than just Banner and Green Hulk lurking in Banner's noggin. There's at least four or five other persona's lurking in there (Grey Hulk/Joe Fixit, Professor Hulk, Devil Hulk, Guilt Hulk..) 

I'm not saying they can't beat him, but they need to play this smart. and by smart, I mean using almost nothing but long range attacks.


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## Moonbeam Funk (May 4, 2012)

Ah, I see. Well, the number of personalities in this case doesn't matter much since it's still not certain Ginyu's Body Swap works on anything with more than one soul, whether it be 2 or 2,000.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 4, 2012)

Moonbeam Funk said:


> As I said before, getting hung up on Hulk vs DBZverse is defeating the purpose of this thread. It'd be nice if we could just settle it and move on.





Like Doctor Who.

Doctor Who is good.

It also could take on some of the stronger ones.


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## Heavenly King (May 4, 2012)

eaebiakuya said:


> What is the best Hulk durability feat ?
> 
> Savage Hulk (not WWH or WB) can survive to a multiple planet bust attacks at same time ?



Hulk vs Zeus 


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Took that ass beating like a man


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 4, 2012)

The hulk took a beating from some galaxy level character and lived?

How consistent is that with the character anyway?


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## Gone (May 4, 2012)

WWH, whch was suposedly his strongest, was getting shredded by adamantium shards and took multiple hits to bring down Sue Storms force field. The Hulk is always inconsistant. 

And for the record just because Zeus is wailing on him dosnt mean hes using Galaxy level power. Sentry is something like universal and the Hulk has taken a beating from him, that certainly dosnt mean the Hulk has universal durability.

I really dont see what the Hulk can do if somebody like Buu just blows up the planet and Instant Transmissions away. The Hulk might be able to survive space, but he will still be effectivly BFR if hes sent floating off with no planet left.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 5, 2012)

Who really thinks Sentry is universal ?


Zeus is a skyfather, but he beat Hulk down with his fists, I doubt those were galaxy-busting punches


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> Who really thinks Sentry is universal ?



Dosnt he have the same type of powers as Molecule Man, only more advanced or something like that? (albiet he has less experience with them). That being the case it would put him at something like multiversal. Plus according to X-Man he stalemated Galactus before.

Its a little annoying that people constantly downplay Sentry because they dont like the character. I mean for fucks sake Ive heard people say he would lose to Thor


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 5, 2012)

he had one encounter with MM, has he ever displayed those powers again ?




> Him being stated to have fought Galactus to a standstill once (which was later stated to have happened with the help of powerful mutant Nate Grey/X-Man should remain a nonfeat as long as details on the state of Galactus and the fight itself remain unknown


(c)



multiversal Sentry ? 


but he is above heralds


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> he had one encounter with MM, has he ever displayed those powers again ?
> 
> 
> (c)
> ...



And hes the only guy in Marvel who fluctuates? Thor goes from being KOed by Captain America to driving off a starved Galactus. That fight was when we actually get a clear definition of what Sentrys powers are and how they work, so yes he is universal at least.

Hell IWD has said he was multiversal in a few threads from when I first started posting, idk if hes shown actual multiversal feats though, I stopped reading Marvel titles about a year before Seige. Charcan might know more, IIRC hes usually Sentrys sole defender in these debates.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 5, 2012)

ok then

i just know I put him against RKT once and it was a horrible stomp in RKT's favor IIRC


and to my knowledge he has never displayed powers on even skyfather level, sans the fight with MM


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

I guess I could be wrong, Im saying this based on the most powerful version weve seen. I mean this guy fluctuates every fight we see him in, at his strongest hes > multiversal Molecule Man, at his weakest hes fighting even keeled with WWH. 

Since the MM fight came with an explination of his powers I just assumed it was Marvel trying to show us how powerful they intended him to be rather than a PIS inconsistancy.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 5, 2012)

I didn't know post-retcon MM was multiversal

he's not a cube being anymore ? What tier is he ?


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## Heavenly King (May 5, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> WWH, whch was suposedly his strongest, was getting shredded by adamantium shards and took multiple hits to bring down Sue Storms force field. The Hulk is always inconsistant.
> 
> And for the record just because Zeus is wailing on him dosnt mean hes using Galaxy level power. Sentry is something like universal and the Hulk has taken a beating from him, that certainly dosnt mean the Hulk has universal durability.
> 
> I really dont see what the Hulk can do if somebody like Buu just blows up the planet and Instant Transmissions away. The Hulk might be able to survive space, but he will still be effectivly BFR if hes sent floating off with no planet left.



Adamantium being the strongest metal in marvel. One of the the things that can cut the Hulk's skin with no problem. Sue's force field is powered by hyper space I don't seen anything wrong with him destroying it. Show me where he's always inconsistent at.

oh that Sentry wank.

Buu better blast the other side of the earth and run like hell


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## jetwaterluffy1 (May 5, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> Hulk vs Zeus
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Being beaten up badly by someone who was trying to teach him a lesson rather than kill him, and deliberately restricted himself to show off, does not really count as a good feat.


Ryjacork said:


> And hes the only guy in Marvel who fluctuates? Thor goes from being KOed by Captain America to driving off a starved Galactus. That fight was when we actually get a clear definition of what Sentrys powers are and how they work, so yes he is universal at least.
> 
> Hell IWD has said he was multiversal in a few threads from when I first started posting, idk if hes shown actual multiversal feats though, I stopped reading Marvel titles about a year before Seige. Charcan might know more, IIRC hes usually Sentrys sole defender in these debates.


Yeah but that feat can simply be explained by jobbing, as can thor losing to captain america.
I still don't get how hulk can take out frieza, seeing as frieza does not live, neither has he been to, earth, so unless hulk suddenly gains the ability to fly I can't see how he gets to him.


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> I still don't get how hulk can take out frieza, seeing as frieza does not live, neither has he been to, earth, so unless hulk suddenly gains the ability to fly I can't see how he gets to him.



Technically OBD standard distance is 20 meters, but I dont see the Hulk taking out over a half dozen planet busters before one of them can fly out of his reach. Especially if their all working together and can coordinate things like time stops and Taiyō-ken and such.



Heavenly King said:


> Adamantium being the strongest metal in marvel. One of the the things that can cut the Hulk's skin with no problem. Sue's force field is powered by hyper space I don't seen anything wrong with him destroying it. Show me where he's always inconsistent at.



Adamantium may be strong and sharp, but it was ripping through his entire body with just the force of a gunpowder explosion. And this is after he shrugged off being blasted in the face by Black Bolt... Oh wait thats right we never see how he actually manages to beat Black Bolt.

Then he beats Strange by virtue of the good Doc going semi retarded for a 30 seconds and getting his hands crushed, then going off the deep end and taking that demon inside himself... then kind of just giving up.

Then Sentry, who was supposedly unleashing his powers like never before (and for some reason was only city level destruction) stalemated him, untill they both got shut down by a very unclear combination of using up all their power and some satalite crap Tony pulled.

Im sorry no WWH was full of inconsistancys and PIS. Regular Hulk can tank planet busters, but at his strongest he gets shredded by adamantium shrapnel?

And like JWL said just because Zeus tossed him a beating, that dosnt give him some amazing durability feat. The Hulk has planet busting punches, but that dosnt mean everybody whos ever survived being hit by him (Spiderman, Captain America, Rick Jones, etc.) has planet level durability.


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## oliwa (May 5, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> I dont see the Hulk taking out over a half dozen planet busters before one of them can fly out of his reach.




Kid Buu is the only planet buster in the show.


Hulk's speed >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dbz speed.

Hulk punches = planet explodes

A planet explosion >>>>>>> Dbz.

All of them are going to die before they realise what happens.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 5, 2012)

Dupe-kun's back.

Nothing to see here folks.


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## Heavenly King (May 5, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Being beaten up badly by someone who was trying to teach him a lesson rather than kill him, and deliberately restricted himself to show off, does not really count as a good feat.



He got beat up by a Skyfather and had his rib cage destroyed and lungs collapse. I think that is a good damn feat durability feat. 



Ryjacork said:


> Technically OBD standard distance is 20 meters, but I dont see the Hulk taking out over a half dozen planet busters before one of them can fly out of his reach. Especially if their all working together and can coordinate things like time stops and Taiyō-ken and such.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What???????????  I can believe what I am reading here. dude are you trying to troll me here


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> He got beat up by a Skyfather and had his rib cage destroyed and lungs collapse. I think that is a good damn feat durability feat.
> 
> 
> 
> What???????????  I can believe what I am reading here. dude are you trying to troll me here



Wanna say what specifically you have a problem with? Im sorry the Hulk soloing half the marvel verse on earth and stalemating(ish) Sentry was horrible PIS.


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## Heavenly King (May 5, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Wanna say what specifically you have a problem with? Im sorry the Hulk soloing half the marvel verse on earth and stalemating(ish) Sentry was horrible PIS.



 Sentry is a horrible character first off. the whole adamantium thing is a bit funny to me.

strange fight was pis I'll give you


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> Sentry is a horrible character first off. the whole adamantium thing is a bit funny to me.



What does Sentry being a horrible character have to do with anything? Love him or hate him, his weakest version would still utterly destroy the Hulk, and his strongest would bitch slap him out of existance. So him going "all out" as he was stated to be doing in WWH, and still only stalemating the Hulk is stupid right there.

I could be wrong about the adamantium thing, but I would think that with the durability to take a beating from Sentry and survive Black bolts voice, that a bomb with adamantium shrapnel wouldnt do that much to him. Not that it isnt sharp enohgh, but there has to be force behind it. 

Didnt wolverine fail at cutting Thor or the Silver Surfer once because he wasnt strong enough to drive his claws through their skin?


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## Heavenly King (May 5, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> What does Sentry being a horrible character have to do with anything? Love him or hate him, his weakest version would still utterly destroy the Hulk, and his strongest would bitch slap him out of existance. So him going "all out" as he was stated to be doing in WWH, and still only stalemating the Hulk is stupid right there.
> 
> I could be wrong about the adamantium thing, but I would think that with the durability to take a beating from Sentry and survive Black bolts voice, that a bomb with adamantium shrapnel wouldnt do that much to him. Not that it isnt sharp enohgh, but there has to be force behind it.
> 
> Didnt wolverine fail at cutting Thor or the Silver Surfer once because he wasnt strong enough to drive his claws through their skin?




I am not going to go off topic and talk about Sentry. Yes you are dead wrong about the adamantium thing. 

take a look for your self 


He failed to cut Silver Surfer yes


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

Im not saying I doubt that adamantium could cut the Hulk, but I think its a little off for the force of a small bomb to be able to drive shrapnel through his entire body when a weaker version of the Hulks body can survive planet busters.

I would just think that the Hulks body would be too dense for the force of the explosion, rather then the adamantium itself.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 5, 2012)

If a small bomb could send shrapnel through the hulks body, regardless of what the shrapnel is made of, that'd be an incredibly low end showing and inconsistent I'd wager.

After all, adamantium, just like any other metal, would need to possess a sharp enough edge to cut at such incredibly low yields.

I'm thinking maybe about as thick as a few atoms (not sure I'm exhaggerating)


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## Heavenly King (May 5, 2012)

the hulk got shot in the eye with a adamantium bullet. it's not a low showing for the simple fact that marvel made adamantium to be the strongest thing for metal. So i don't see anything wrong with him being cut or being hurt by it


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 5, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> the hulk got shot in the eye with a adamantium bullet. it's not a low showing for the simple fact that marvel made adamantium to be the strongest thing for metal. So i don't see anything wrong with him being cut or being hurt by it



The fact that metal doesn't work like that?

You need sufficient force to send anything through a certain material.

It could be adamantium or wood.

Just because adamantium is an incredibly durable material, doesn't mean a small explosion is sending it through someone as durable as the fucking hulk

That's, as I said, fucking retarded reasoning.


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

I wasnt refering to when Ross shot him, IIRC when the first few bombs and missiles were being shot from the helicoptors he had a ton of adamantium shards rip through his entire body. looking for scans now.


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## Heavenly King (May 5, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Im not saying I doubt that adamantium could cut the Hulk, but I think its a little off for the force of a small bomb to be able to drive shrapnel through his entire body when a weaker version of the Hulks body can survive planet busters.
> 
> I would just think that the Hulks body would be too dense for the force of the explosion, rather then the adamantium itself.





ChaosTheory123 said:


> The fact that metal doesn't work like that?
> 
> You need sufficient force to send anything through a certain material.
> 
> ...



welcome to marvel friend, I don't wright the shit I just read this stuff. Thunderbolt Ross shot the hulk in the face with adamantium bullets and yes it pierced the hulk skin


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> welcome to marvel friend, I don't wright the shit I just read this stuff. Thunderbolt Ross shot the hulk in the face with adamantium bullets and yes it pierced the hulk skin



Which is why Im saying WWH is inconsistant, one dosnt go from being whailed on by Sentry and tanking black Bolts voice to that.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 5, 2012)

Heavenly King said:


> welcome to marvel friend,



Nothing new to me.

I'm used to inconsistent writing 

Just being marvel doesn't excuse it from our normal analysis.

If they've claimed something like adamantium's durability being able to cut people for no other reason than being durable?

The writer is fucking retarded and his word suspect.



> I don't wright the shit I just read this stuff.



Oh, that's not being held against you.

Just the writer.



> Thunderbolt Ross shot the hulk in the face with adamantium bullets and yes it pierced the hulk skin



Which sounds like a massive inconsistency.

Barring adamantium also holding a far higher density than just being incredibly durable.

Can normal people lift ingots of the shit though?

If so, can't be that much more dense than normal alloy.


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## Emperor Joker (May 5, 2012)

Wait when did Ross shoot Hulk with Adamantium again? I don't remember this


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Wait when did Ross shoot Hulk with Adamantium again? I don't remember this



Its in WWH #3. I cant find the scans, but he jumps up onto the helicoptor and grabs him and as their falling Ross is giving this speech about how theyll eventually wear him down and find a way to kill him, then he pulls out a handgun and plugs him in the face.


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## Heavenly King (May 5, 2012)

I need ww hulk scans to post up


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## Gone (May 5, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Barring adamantium also holding a far higher density than just being incredibly durable.
> 
> Can normal people lift ingots of the shit though?
> 
> If so, can't be that much more dense than normal alloy.



They can, Amadeus Cho picks up a piece of shrapnel and uses it to take down a missile IIRC. Not only is he just a kid and was perfectly capable of lifting it and tossing it through the air, but if it was as sharp as you are describing it would have sliced off his fingers just by touching it.


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## Heavenly King (May 5, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Adamantium is a virtually indestructible man-made steel alloy which does not occur in nature and whose exact chemical composition is a United States government classified secret. Adamantium is not an element: its properties do not qualify it for any know space on the Periodic Table of Elements. Rather, Adamantium is a series of closely related compounds of iron created through a secret process discovered by the American metallurgist Dr. Myron MacLain.

MacLain began experimenting with the process that created Adamantium as a young scientist in the employ of the United States government in the early 1940s. Assigned to create a super-metal with which to build tanks, MacLain labored for month, experimenting with various iron alloys. One of his experiments utilized the rare meteoric ore now known as Wakandan Vibranium. He tried to fuse the Vibranium to the iron alloy numerous times without success. Then one night when he dozed off, some as yet unknown factor entered the process, and permitted the fusion to occur. Upon discovering his success, MacLain poured the molten metal into a disc-shaped mold. The disc, once solidified, has proven to be the most impervious object ever created on Earth. MacLain turned the discover to the government and it was given to Captain America to use as his shield. Neither MacLain nor anyone else has ever been able to discover what was the x-factor that entered the process, or has been able to fuse Vibranium with another metal. (The unknown iron-Vibranium alloy of which the shield is composed resembles True Adamantium, although Adamantium itself contains no Vibranium,)

Over the following decades MacLain experimented, attempting to duplicate the process that create the shield. Finally, in recent years, he succeeded in developing the process by which the substance known as True Adamantium is created. True Adamantium is nearly as strong as Captain America's shield, and is, for all practical purpose, indestructible. The degree of impermeability varies directly with the thickness of the Adamantium. A direct blow from Thor's hammer, conveyed with the thunder god's full strength, will slightly dent a solid cylinder of True Adamantium. A sufficient mass of Adamantium could survive a direct hit from a nuclear weapon.

Adamantium is created through the mixing of certain chemical resins whose composition is a United States government secret. For eight minutes after the resins are mixed, the Adamantium can be molded into a particular shape as long as it is kept at a temperature of 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit. After this brief period the process of creating Adamantium is completed. The extremely stable molecular structure of the Adamantium prevents it from being molded further, even if the temperature remains high enough to keep it in liquefied form. Only a device celled a Molecular Rearranger can alter the form of hardened Adamantium.

The United States government has shared the secret of Adamantium's composition with certain of its allies, and the secret has also fallen into the hands of various criminals, such as the Constrictor, who has made special weaponry from Adamantium. Wolverine possesses artificial claws made of True Adamantium and his bones have been fused with Adamantium in an unexplained manner so as to greatly increase their tensile strength. The outer portion of the robotic body of Ultron is also composed entirely of True Adamantium, although Ultron's inner mechanisms are not.

Adamantium is extraordinarily expensive to produce. Therefore, certain parties who wish to use Adamantium on a large scale have resorted to utilizing a similar but somewhat weaker compound similar to True Adamantium called Secondary Adamantium. Although Secondary Adamantium is still far stronger than even titanium steel, it can be destroyed by sufficiently great amounts of force. Blastaar's energy discharges and the vibratory force created by the Overkill Horn have both proved able to destroy Secondary Adamantium. The sentient computer known as F.A.U.S.T. had a casing made of Secondary Adamantium which Thor and Iron Man managed to destroy. The Red Skull and the original Hate-Monger had a dome of Secondary Adamantium constructed to protect their island fortress but the dome was destroyed by the vibratory force of the Overkill Horn and by powerful incendiary bombs.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 5, 2012)

Interesting read.

Doesn't give me sufficient reason to believe Adamantium, propelled by a hypersonic shockwave (a la bomb), should be able to cut the son of a bitch up.

The blast wouldn't be any where energetic enough.

Metal doesn't work like that.

Adamantium isn't even handwaved away as having magical properties.

I'm not buying the hulk being cut up by it from something eqautable to dog piss to him as being anything more than an inconsistency.


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## Heavenly King (May 5, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Interesting read.
> 
> Doesn't give me sufficient reason to believe Adamantium, propelled by a hypersonic shockwave (a la bomb), should be able to cut the son of a bitch up.
> 
> ...




I am done for the night ask Mike he'll tell you everything you need to know son.


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## feebas_factor (May 6, 2012)

lol adamantium bullets.
Just gonna throw this out there again.


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## Samavarti (May 6, 2012)

I think adamantium usually doesn't make sense, wolverine has cuted extremely hard things that he shouldn't have the strength to cut just because adamantium, then again wolverine is not the most consistent character out there, so that may also influence.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (May 6, 2012)

I was about to return and scream how Q was being underestimated, but I didn't really look over Mike's list in any real detail last time. I still haven't, but I agree Q won't be able to take on about half the list. Besides that, t SS beating Q is laughable.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 6, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Interesting read.
> 
> Doesn't give me sufficient reason to believe Adamantium, propelled by a hypersonic shockwave (a la bomb), should be able to cut the son of a bitch up.
> 
> ...



Not particularly, just ludicrous enough that IIRC takes high level powers just to do anything to it.

I honestly would not be surprised if adamantium can injure the Hulk. Considering the bullshit it does.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 6, 2012)

ah, Marvel


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