# Itachi's potential higher then a transmigrant?



## Ersa (Oct 7, 2015)

Non-sick EMS Itachi vs. EMS Sasuke

*Location*: VOTE
*Distance*: 20m
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC, intent to kill
*Restrictions*: None


*Spoiler*: __ 



A hypothetical test if you will.

I mean if you think about he was always ahead of his brother when they were at the same age for most of the series.

13 year old Sasuke gets his ass handed to him by the Sound 4, 13 year old Itachi was taking down their boss in his base form. 

12 year old Sasuke is still a Genin, Itachi graduated at age 7.

Itachi mastered the Sharingan at 8, Sasuke took 5 more years.

Hebi Sasuke would still lose to 15 year old Itachi.

My theory is that Itachi had one of if not the highest potential in the series and Kishimoto had to nerf him via terminal illness. In order to get stronger Sasuke had to take his eyes and still got outperformed by his gimped Edo brother. 




*tl;dr* Terminally ill people don't reach their full potential


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 7, 2015)

I'm not sure why Hebi Sasuke would lose to 15-year old Itachi, whose abilities we have no knowledge of. We don't even know if Itachi had even awakened Susanoo at that point.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

Or maybe... Itachi's illness was caused by his rapid development? Constantly pushing oneself from a kindergarten age and abusing body-damaging techs such as MS since 13 isn't really a healthy lifestyle. Explains his random illness well imo.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Probably. Also, Sasuke mentioned the Susanoo really hurt him when he used it. Itachi was even younger than Sasuke when he got the MS. If he used Susanoo at that age, yeah...

Sasuke was around Itachi's level when he got the EMS imo. At that point I don't think Itachi had the reserves to deal with him. However if Itachi was not sick, I think he could pull it off.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2015)

or Itachi's illness is just a plot device that doesn't particularly connect to anything ? 
Makes more sense than any other scenario that you can come up with.


With that said, it is obvious that Itachi was much more skilled than Sasuke.
If you give him the same tools, he will perform better.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> 13 year old Sasuke gets his ass handed to him by the Sound 4, 13 year old Itachi was taking down their boss in his base form.



Itachi was 11.



Ersatz said:


> Itachi mastered the Sharingan at 8, Sasuke took 5 more years.



Sasuke only awoke the 3-tomoe Sharingan at 13. He didn't master it. 

He couldn't even use any of its genjutsu.



Ersatz said:


> My theory is that Itachi had one of if not the highest potential in the series



Not one of the highest. _The_ highest.


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## LostSelf (Oct 7, 2015)

I don't just type "No" because the message is too short. So i add this:

No.

But to avoid my comment being deleted:

Itachi's potential was unknown. However, i doubt he, even with 10 years or more, would caught up to Hashirama or Madara. I won't count Naruto and Sasuke, because they got a freebie powerup later. And the latter was a victim of free powerups all over his entire life (CS, MS, EMS, Rikudo chakra).

But, no. Madara's still the strongest Uchiha barring Sasuke. The man was incredibly powerful in all areas. Taijutsu, Genjutsu, Ninjutsu, chakra pool, etc. And don't make me speak of Hashirama, who was still his superior.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

If Itachi's ultimate goal was increasing his own power, I have zero doubts he could be transmigrant level. He was aware that Hashirama's cells would boost Shisui's eyes and his own, and had a level of genius far beyond that of Orochimaru.

Basically, if Orochimaru could begin approaching the level of Hashirama, then it's a no-brainer that Itachi could as well *if* he had Orochimaru's ambitions to do so. But Itachi was never about striving to increase his own power. His path was the anti-Madara.

He could take Sasuke's eyes, take Hashirama's cells, pursue developing senjutsu, etc. He'd definitely reach quite a crazy level. But he knew he was going to die for Sasuke and set up circumstances with Kotoamatsukami so that Sasuke would protect it.​


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Itachi would have destroyed Madara's potential if he continued down the same path. He already had almost caught up as it is lol. Just run through his feats at the ages of 8, 11, 13, now Imagine him older, going down that route normally without the hindrances he ended up with.

Yeah.

He was nerfed for a reason. I think even Kishi figured he made Itachi kind of ridiculous LOL.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Itachi would have destroyed Madara's potential if he continued down the same path. He already had almost caught up as it is lol.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


NBD always delivers


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

^ Pretty sure kid Itachi would destroy kid Madara. That was his point.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Pretty much. I doubt Madara was as talented as Itachi was, especially at that age, Wasn't he way older then he got his MS in the manga? And judging by his age he was far older than 8 when he even awakened the normal sharingan.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 7, 2015)

lol why?
Kid madara was killing adult war seasoned shinobi pre-sharingan awakening


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> lol why?
> Kid madara was killing adult war seasoned shinobi pre-sharingan awakening



Were they Orochimaru?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Kid madara was killing adult war seasoned shinobi





And kid Obito was considered by kid Kakashi to be a loser among the Uchiha and kid Obito had stats inferior to that of Wave Sasuke.

Itachi, on the other hand, whooped an actual badass that had an adult Kakashi sweating in fear. Not fodder nobodies in a war.​


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## Deer Lord (Oct 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Were they Orochimaru?


Did itachi beat orochimaru without sharingan?


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Did itachi beat orochimaru without sharingan?



It's because he had the sharingan so early.

Stop, your digging a hole for yourself lol.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

You guys are funny. 11 years old Itachi being stronger than people like 11 year old Madara/Hashirama doesn't equate to him potentially reaching/surpassing their Prime level. He reached his individual peak sooner than them, that's all. Speed of development can't properly show maximum potential.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> You guys are funny. 11 years old Itachi being stronger than people like 11 year old Madara/Hashirama doesn't equate to him potentially reaching/surpassing their Prime level. He reached his individual peak sooner than them, that's all. Speed of development =/= maximum potential.



I guess you can argue that due to Asura/Indra BS plotline he would never reach them.

At a certain point he just stopped becoming stronger, all progress halted. Which is funny considering his past and how quick he was at advancing. It would only be easy to blame illness or something else when really all it was is poor writing, or just a change of plan. 

But that's a whole different topic.

Point is, Itachi was far more advanced then anyone else for his age. that includes Madara and Hashirama. You are trippin if you think otherwise.


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## LostSelf (Oct 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If Itachi's ultimate goal was increasing his own power, I have zero doubts he could be transmigrant level. He was aware that Hashirama's cells would boost Shisui's eyes and his own, and had a level of genius far beyond that of Orochimaru.
> 
> Basically, if Orochimaru could begin approaching the level of Hashirama, then it's a no-brainer that Itachi could as well *if* he had Orochimaru's ambitions to do so. But Itachi was never about striving to increase his own power. His path was the anti-Madara.
> 
> He could take Sasuke's eyes, take Hashirama's cells, pursue developing senjutsu, etc. He'd definitely reach quite a crazy level. But he knew he was going to die for Sasuke and set up circumstances with Kotoamatsukami so that Sasuke would protect it.​



Orochimaru approached Hashirama's level because he got Hashirama. Not because of himself. He got people like Hashirama, such as Bijuu Mode Minato and kages. Itachi could've, with Edo Tensei. 

And we don't have for certain that Itachi could handle PS like Madara does, nor for the same time limit, and he surely lacked some secrets as well. When we have Madara using Kyuubi as a summon and busting PS for hours and hours. And Hashirama dealing with PS with a smile on his face.

Maybe it's just me. But i am just not on the side of "Nobody is more skilled than Itachi - Itachi with the same jutsus would be more powerful. Or Itachi has more talent than everybody else, he just lacked power."

Basically, we're saying Itachi would caught up to Hashirama's level by stealing his DNA and such. But even if he did that, is he more skilled than Hashirama? More talented? No. He had to steal and add things to himself.

Hashirama got there alone. No steroids.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> You guys are funny. 11 years old Itachi being stronger than people like 11 year old Madara/Hashirama doesn't equate to him potentially reaching/surpassing their Prime level. He reached his individual peak sooner than them, that's all. Speed of development can't properly show maximum potential.


That is actually false.

Itachi died @ 21. 
He wasn't even close to his prime.
You are placing arbitrary limitations on him. How do we know he was at his peak ? 

It is true that most geniuses grow alot faster than the rest and mature at earlier ages, but they don't reach peak level in their teens. They actually keep growing even as adults. 

Einstein was 26 when he came up with private theory of relativity, and that surely wasn't one of his biggest accomplishments. 

I'd say If Itachi wasn't ill, he would keep growing until he reached 30 - 35 years old mark, both physicaly and mentally. Leave guys like Madara in the dust.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

That's why the subject of Itachi induces a total retardgasm whenever he is mentioned.

The fact is nobody knows. He was written sick and discarded. But considering his past, people (msyelf included) can deduce he would have been entirely overpowered.

So you have the army of people thinking he didn't have what it took and the army of people thinking he did, he just got nerfed.

Either way, we will never find out. We only have opinions. 

Myself? He was in his early 20's when he died. And he was ill.

He would have surpassed Madara if he was dealt a better hand.


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## LostSelf (Oct 7, 2015)

What Alex Payne said really  makes sense. Otherwise, Naruto would've never surpassed Kakashi. Nor Sasuke either. And both did.

It was like when i was in 9th grade. Two friends were notably taller than me, of my same age. Of course, only up to 12th grade, that i had to look down to them.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

We have no info about numerous "geniuses". Minato, Sakumo, Hiruzen, Hiruzen's dad, Indra. Each of them might have been as developed as Itachi at 11/13. Itachi is indeed the likely candidate for "strongest 11-years old". But we have no way of knowing for sure. Especially when we are getting Minato>Itachi in the Academy from the novel.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> That is actually false.
> 
> Itachi died @ 21.
> He wasn't even close to his prime.
> ...


Real life examples? You sure? 

Kishimoto was throwing Sasuke > Itachi in potential since Chunin Exams. Long before Indra/Asura bullshit. Kinda hard to make a comparison when Itachi supposedly isn't near his peak like you think he was.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ersa (Oct 7, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I'm not sure why Hebi Sasuke would lose to 15-year old Itachi, whose abilities we have no knowledge of. We don't even know if Itachi had even awakened Susanoo at that point.


I mean 13 year old Itachi trashed Orochimaru in base.

That puts him at minimum Orochimaru-level and factor in Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi and lower forms of Susanoo and yeah I think he wipes the floor with Hebi Sasuke.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> We have no info about numerous "geniuses". Minato, Sakumo, Hiruzen, Hiruzen's dad, Indra. Each of them might have been as developed as Itachi at 11/13. Itachi is indeed the likely candidate for "strongest 11-years old". But we have no way of knowing for sure. Especially when we are getting Minato>Itachi in the Academy from the novel.



Well the good die young I guess, they both kicked the bucket early.

Minato is an even bigger mystery than Itachi in alot of ways.


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## Arles Celes (Oct 7, 2015)

I think Itachi was one of the quickest learners in the manga but his potential was below Sasuke's. Despite being a late bloomer in comparison Sasuke had a higher cap than Itachi.

Though Itachi would always remain the smarter brother. Even BZ pointed that...


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Basically, we're saying Itachi would caught up to Hashirama's level by stealing his DNA and such. But even if he did that, is he more skilled than Hashirama? More talented? No. He had to steal and add things to himself.



I'd say he's already more skilled and talented than Hashirama. Hashirama just had magic, Rikudo-like chakra putting everything he did on another level of power.​


Alex Payne said:


> Especially when we are getting Minato>Itachi in the Academy from the novel.



It was a written exam (knowledge based) and Minato was several years older when he took it. So it's more like 10-year-old Minato > 7-year-old Itachi > Everybody else. At a book test.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Especially when we are getting Minato>Itachi in the Academy from the novel.



Thats the interpretation of a different author though isn't it ?



Alex Payne said:


> Real life examples? You sure?


Why not ? 
Ksihimoto lives in the real world, so his understanding of this universe comes from his surroundings, flawed or not.



> Kishimoto was throwing Sasuke > Itachi in potential since Chunin Exams. Long before Indra/Asura bullshit. Kinda hard to make a comparison when Itachi supposedly isn't near his peak like you think he was.



Sasuke is irrelevant here though.
You are saying that Itachi reached his peak earlier than others. Implying that you know what his peak is.

Given none of us have no knowledge on the matter, doesn't it make more sense to follow the norm here ? That Itachi was nowhere near his peak.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'd say he's already more skilled and talented than Hashirama. Hashirama just had magic chakra putting him on another level.​


While Itachi totally isn't one of Rikudo's descendants. Sure. 

Magic chakra is bullshit. Magic eyes is where its at.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke is irrelevant here though.
> You are saying that Itachi reached his peak earlier than others. Implying that you know what his peak is.
> 
> Given none of us have no knowledge on the matter, doesn't it make more  sense to follow the norm here ? That Itachi was nowhere near his  peak.


What is this? Author made a point through Oro - Sasuke > Itachi in potential. Which points us towards Itachi being near his peak because you can't make a comparison between two if Itachi was still capable of jumping tiers/had unrealized potential.


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## Blu-ray (Oct 7, 2015)

No. How quickly you develop is one thing. The upper limits of your potential is another. Even if Sasuke took longer than Itachi to develop his potential, he still has a higher roof.

Not even the most extreme example of young excellence either. Kakashi enrolled, graduated, and moved up in rank at a younger age than Itachi himself, before he even got Sharingan. Didn't stop Itachi from eclipsing him entirely.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Makes you wonder how long Kishimoto had the ideas he had for the later stage of the manga. I wasn't too impressed with how Hashirama and Tobirama came off against old man Hiruzen for example. Did he have this Asura/Indra BS planned then? Doubt it! Hashirama was far weaker here than he should have been.

Of course no writer is perfect, but you have to admit alot of part 2 made less sense considering how some characters were portrayed in part 1. This includes Itachi.

TLDR Asura/Indra is bs lol


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## LostSelf (Oct 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'd say he's already more skilled and talented than Hashirama. Hashirama just had magic, Rikudo-like chakra putting everything he did on another level of power.​



Being born with such chakra is not Hashi's fault, is part of the talent (like being born a genius, too) actually. Itachi was also born with Uchiha blood, wich is the same. He had "magic eyes". Wich were the ones to put him in the level he is.

Going by that, Hashirama was born with the more talent and surely developed it further than Itachi would've even 30 years more. That is, without taking DNA or eyes that doesn't belong to him.

Skilled greatly really is Minato. Who wasn't born with any of that. And look where he got. (Or Gai, of course. Gai's the answer to everything).


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> While Itachi totally isn't one of Rikudo's descendants. Sure. Magic chakra is bullshit. Magic eyes is where its at.



Not bullshit. But it's undeniable that Hashirama's genetic gifts were on another level to any other character barring moon aliens.​


Alex Payne said:


> What is this? Author made a point through Oro - Sasuke > Itachi in potential.



The author also had Sasuke call him on his bullshit. Because Orochimaru was manipulating Sasuke.​


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

Btw, was it confirmed how transmigration works? Are you born with Indra/Asura chakra. Or does it latches on you after you mature into someone similar to them?



Strategoob said:


> The author also had Sasuke call him on his bullshit.​


Nothing about potential. Sasuke was weaker at that time. That's all. Come on, Strat. What's with these genin-level moves.



Strategoob said:


> Not bullshit. But Hashirama's _innate_  bodily power put everything he did on another scale to other shinobi,  even the fusion of Madara and Izuna and with 100% Kurama as well.
> 
> Itachi's intellect and skill could get him to that level though, just as it did for Orochimaru.​




Orochimaru's potential > Itachi's btw. Edo Tensei and Fushi Tensei, gg. And Oro wasn't born with bloodline advantages to boot. 
Come at me. ​


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## LostSelf (Oct 7, 2015)

How is Hashirama being penalized for being born with his talent and not Itachi?


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> How is Hashirama being penalized for being born with his talent and not Itachi?



Because again, Asura/Indra BS.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

Itachi is Indra's direct descendant. Makes his powers as bullshit as Hashirama's.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Itachi is Indra's direct descendant. Makes his powers as bullshit as Hashirama's.



I get your point, but come on you know what I mean lol.

If anything, Minato is the true genius here. Where the fuck did he come from?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Kakashi enrolled, graduated, and moved up in rank at a younger age than Itachi himself, before he even got Sharingan. Didn't stop Itachi from eclipsing him entirely.



This was more to do with the need for new ninja and Jonin. Itachi was still a Chunin ANBU when he defeated Orochimaru and was believed to be capable of killing Shisui, another war legend.

Ranks aside, it's unlikely that Itachi was ever developmentally behind Kakashi. He was hyped to have Hokage-like wisdom at age seven and had the Sharingan mastered by the age of eight.​


LostSelf said:


> Being born with such chakra is not Hashi's fault, is part of the talent (like being born a genius, too) actually.



I agree. My point is that Itachi's intellectual gifts would surpass Hashirama's physical gifts had that been Itachi's ultimate goal. I don't believe "stealing" cells cheapens anything, it's innovation.​


LostSelf said:


> Skilled greatly really is Minato. Who wasn't born with any of that.



Minato, like Itachi, was born with genius. And he also "stole" plenty of powerful jutsu from his wife and Tobirama. He too had the potential to surpass Hashirama had that been his ultimate goal.​


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> I get your point, but come on you know what I mean lol.
> 
> If anything, Minato is the true genius here. Where the fuck did he come from?



Genius of stealing stuff from an actual scientist/inventor - Tobirama. And his wife's relatives.

**


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Genius of stealing stuff from an actual scientist/inventor - Tobirama. And his wife's relatives.



So did Orochimaru, but he was still called a genius. Even as a kid Hiruzen was praising him as one. He stole the ET and improved it, doesn't take away the fact he was skilled.

Jiraiya called Minato a once in a lifetime genius, a bit exaggerated for sure.

But not every random ninja can master Tobirama's jutsu.


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## LostSelf (Oct 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> This was more to do with the need for new ninja and Jonin. Itachi was still a Chunin/ANBU when he defeated Orochimaru and sparred evenly with Shisui years prior, and didn't enroll as early because times were peaceful.
> 
> It's unlikely that Itachi was ever developmentally behind Kakashi, especially by the time they were both eight and Itachi had mastered the 3-tomoe Sharingan.​
> 
> ...



But then he's not more skilled or talented, considering he would need other's powers to do so. And the same Itachi said to Kabuto that others powers are not his.

But if Hashirama went that route too, then the difference still's there.

Ghoztly: This is quite curious, because Hashirama's the only one who didn't use Indra/Asura (Whoever is)'s powers directly. As he used Kyuubi and such. Hashirama developed his own Mokuton and Senjutsu. And was called to be the strongest Shinobi ever even before that.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> But then he's not more skilled or talented, considering he would need other's powers to do so.



If you took away Hashirama's magic body and Itachi's magic eyes, so both had neither and were limited to basic ninja shit like clones, basic jutsu, shuriken, etc. that Itachi would win handily.

Alternatively, if you gave Hashirama Itachi's eyes and gave Itachi Hashirama's body, and gave them time to adapt and refine their new powers, I think Itachi would win over him just as succinctly.

That's what I mean by skill. The fundamental ability and aptitude _behind_ all the gifted powers. I always back Itachi because Itachi has the best fundamental skill and intelligence in the manga.​


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> But then he's not more skilled or talented, considering he would need other's powers to do so. And the same Itachi said to Kabuto that others powers are not his.
> 
> But if Hashirama went that route too, then the difference still's there.
> 
> Ghoztly: This is quite curious, because Hashirama's the only one who didn't use Indra/Asura (Whoever is)'s powers directly. As he used Kyuubi and such. Hashirama developed his own Mokuton and Senjutsu. And was called to be the strongest Shinobi ever even before that.



Oh I am aware, I just meant from a general point of view he might get originality points taken from him simply because he was born with something others didn't have.

I am aware he is talented in his own right.


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## LostSelf (Oct 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If you took away Hashirama's magic body and Itachi's magic eyes, so both had neither and were limited to basic ninja shit like clones, basic jutsu, shuriken, etc. that Itachi would win handily.
> 
> Alternatively, if you gave Hashirama Itachi's eyes and gave Itachi Hashirama's body, and gave them time to adapt and refine their new powers, I think Itachi would win over him just as succinctly.
> 
> That's what I mean by skill. The fundamental ability and aptitude _behind_ all the gifted powers. I always back Itachi because Itachi has the best fundamental skill and intelligence in the manga.​



But that's like saying if you give Lee Itachi's ninjutsu and MS he would be above. But i get you.

However, we cannot be sure. You're talking about then normal ninjutsu and taijutsu. Hashirama kept up in CqC with Madara's precog and speed that blitzed SM Naruto. (They straight fight once Hashirama jumps off his Budha to confront Madara in CqC).

And to be able to do so, against a man who weakened reacted to Ei's surprise punch and move his body when his fist was inches away from his face, you either need to be or notably more skilled in CqC, notably faster or both.

Hashirama also had a mass genjutsu, and two elements, one that counters Itachi's Katon.


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## Blu-ray (Oct 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> This was more to do with the need for new ninja and Jonin. Itachi was still a Chunin ANBU when he defeated Orochimaru and was believed to be capable of killing Shisui, another war legend.​



I recall a lack of Shinobi being the reason Minato and team Kakashi split up during the war, not the reason for Kakashi's promotion.

People also thought Sasuke was capable of killing Itachi.



> Ranks aside, it's unlikely that Itachi was ever developmentally behind Kakashi. He was hyped to have Hokage-like wisdom at age seven and had the Sharingan mastered by the age of eight.​



Was judging mainly by rank and general achievements since that's the standard the OP went with.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> What is this? Author made a point through Oro - Sasuke > Itachi in potential.





> Which points us towards Itachi being near his peak


How are these two connected ? 



> because you can't make a comparison between two if Itachi was still capable of jumping tiers/had unrealized potential.



Lets take the author's Sasuke > Itachi remarks at face value(I always thought it was classic newgen > old bullshit that he would justify @ the end of the series by ass pull power ups - which is exactly what happened). 

We can see it like this : 

Part 1 Sasuke is a 10 while Itachi is 100.
Sasuke's potential is 200 while Itachi's potential is 190

The bottom line is, there is no way to know what Itachi's potential was. Although going by his growth rate and hype regarding his genius, and his declination because of his disase, there is no way he was at his peak at 21.


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## S (Oct 7, 2015)

Obito's potential>>>>>all the other Uchiha's  combined.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2015)

I think he wasn't competent or intelligent enough to make full use of that hax he had. So I have to disagree.


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## Matty (Oct 7, 2015)

I think Itachi was just too busy fucking bitches left and right and caught the HIV from that big titted babe Jiraiya was gettng info out of in Amegakure during the pein arc.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2015)

Nah being a transmigrant alone means they have the potential to become a perfect Juubi Jinchuriki and awaken Rinnegan which can only be used to the max by the transmigrant, case and point Nagato not being able to use limbo clones & Obito only being able to use Gedo Path. 

That is something that Itachi could never attain over his entire lifetime.

There's actually no proof he could even attain EMS, which is the power of Indra, which exists within his transmigrants and was awakened only by his transmigrants.

As for this hypothetical scenario there's no possible way to gauge how powerful Itachi would be with EMS, everyone assumed Obito would be able to use all 7 paths of the Rinnegan and yet he could only use the 7th path... which allocated the Pain Paths (Bijuu Jins), Gedo Mazo control & Samsara of Heavenly Life. Itachi should be no different with EMS, we simply do not know if he can use it as well as the transmigrants.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 8, 2015)

A fact that a lot of people seem to overlook is that Sasuke had better eyes than Itachi; Orochimaru and Obito both said this, and they said he would one day surpass Itachi because of it.

So in the eye exchange for EMS, who is getting the better deal here? It's Itachi.

On top of having more innate skill, better intuition, and growing much faster than Sasuke without all the bullshit divine plot intervention, Itachi would also be equipped with the superior weapon if he were to undergo transplantation.

So yeah, a healthy EMS Itachi would pound EMS Sasuke's fairy-loving ass. No real doubt about it.


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## ARGUS (Oct 8, 2015)

Yes. Itachis potential, talent and wisdom shits on sasukes as admitted by sasuke, Danzo, BZ and obito 
Itachi getting ill has got nothing to do with his talent so that's just a dumb excuse 

As for Hebi sasuke losing to 14 year old Itachi who awakened the MS, joined akatsuki, threatened it's mastermind, was acting as a double agent, and clowned orochimaru 
I'm just gna go ahead and say hell the fk no


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## Ghoztly (Oct 8, 2015)

Itachi had potential no doubt. but Sasuke even though a late bloomer had more because of a few things. Not only the indra BS but to top it off he awakened a similar sharingan to Madara. Which was far more than just a normal MS, it was superior to the others.


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## StarWanderer (Oct 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nah being a transmigrant alone means they have the potential to become a perfect Juubi Jinchuriki and awaken Rinnegan which can only be used to the max by the transmigrant, case and point Nagato not being able to use limbo clones & Obito only being able to use Gedo Path.
> 
> That is something that Itachi could never attain over his entire lifetime.
> 
> ...



His chakra reserves are too awful to use Perfect Susanoo, that's for sure.


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## ARGUS (Oct 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nah being a transmigrant alone means they have the potential to become a perfect Juubi Jinchuriki and a*waken Rinnegan which can only be used to the max by the transmigrant, case and point Nagato not being able to use limbo clones & Obito only being able to use Gedo Path. *



Nagato and Obito not being able to use Limbo or anything outside of 6 path jutsu has nothing to do with them being transmigrants, 

their rinnegan was just borrowed and the manga made it clear that they didnt have the access to its full power either way (limbo included), 

Obito couldnt even handle the 2 eyes so that only makes it worse 




Ghoztly said:


> Itachi had potential no doubt. but Sasuke even though a late bloomer had more because of a few things. Not only the indra BS but to top it off he awakened a similar sharingan to Madara. Which was far more than just a normal MS, it was superior to the others.



The choku tomo sharingan superiority was only mentioned once he had the EMS 
absolutely nothing that MS sasuke have thats even remotely as hax and broken as things like kamui, 
hell even MS itachi is superior to him, and madaras susanoo trumps his any day of the week


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## LostSelf (Oct 8, 2015)

People are seeing this very wrong. Talent is something you are born with (in cases you develop it, though). Saying "Sasuke is just more talented than Itachi because he was born with Indra's eyes" is taking away Sasuke's talent so that Itachi can be more talented. And that's unfair.

Sasuke was born with that talent, therefore, Sasuke was more talented. The only way Itachi is going to be more talented is taking away Sasuke's talent. It's the same like saying Itachi would beat Kaguya if she didn't have her powers.

What's the point? There's no point arguing this.

I mean, a viable argument can be said if we're talking about Lee, 40yo Genin, or something like that, who weren't born talented. But Itachi? Who was gifted with high IQ, Uchiha blood, was given the MS? No.

He's not more talented than Sasuke, Madara, Hashirama because they were born with more talent than him. He would be more talented than them IF we take their talent away and leave Itachi's untouched. But like i said, 40yo Genin can kill Kaguya if we transform her into a normal woman without eating the fruit.

In other words, Itachi's talent didn't allow him to reach Sasuke's powers.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 8, 2015)

1. Itachi effortlessly defeating Orochimaru in combat at age 11 is pure fan fiction all we saw on panel was Itachi rejecting the body transfer with his sharingan and cutting off Orochimaru's hand which is nothing more than a mosquito bite to him we know nothing about how the fight off panel with you know the same thing Sasuke did when he gained Orochimaru's powers in pt 2 


2. Its also fan fiction that Itachi is more talented than Sasuke , Itachi grew more rapidly because being Fugaku's eldest son he was thrust into rigorous training at a younger age and as a result developed more quickly , Sasuke is a genius in his own right .


3. Fuck being stronger at 8 yrs old who was stronger at the age of 16 , by the time Sasuke reached 16 he had the power to face the strongest entity in the entire Naruto Universe something a prime Itachi couldn't dream of 


4. The power is in the eyes and the chakra something Sasuke has both advantages over Itachi in and this was said time and time again in the manga especially from one Orochimaru who is very familiar with both brothers 


5. even outside of the MS Sasuke was much better at ninjutsu even able to develop the S rank Kirin on his own and multiple chidori variants 


To sum it up No Itachi does not have more potential than a transmigrant because their power is directly tied to Rikudo Sennin , meaning they are individuals who will at one point and time in their life possess his direct power 

Itachi was a full adult with the MS when he died and pre Edo we know that even admittedly himself he failed to change the course of things in the world which is why he left it up to Sasuke , thats symbolic the same thing Jiraiya and Minato did for Naruto because the premise of the story is only the two main characters will have the power to change the course of the world so please stop ruining this forum with your fan fiction thank you

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crow (Oct 8, 2015)

The wank for Itachi is strong in this one (Yoda Voice)
No...just no.
Sasuke will beat Itachi with EMS. 
Itachi just doesn't have the chakra, or physical stanima to keep up with Sasuke
Baby Bro takes this one
Low-Mid diff
And about that Itachi being stronger than a transmigrant stuff. Just because Itachi was stronger then them at their same ages, is he stronger than them as an adult? I don't think so.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> 1. Itachi effortlessly defeating Orochimaru in combat at age 11 is pure fan fiction



This is a first. A guy who thinks actual manga panels are fanfiction.




> all we saw on panel was *Itachi rejecting the body transfer with his sharingan *and cutting off Orochimaru's hand which is nothing more than a mosquito bite to him we know nothing about how the fight off panel with you know the same thing Sasuke did when he gained Orochimaru's powers in pt 2


And then he says this.

Why is this guy allowed to post here ?


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> This is a first. A guy who thinks actual manga panels are fanfiction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its amazing how you can type and hold Itachi's dick at the same time


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 8, 2015)

> Nagato and Obito not being able to use Limbo or anything outside of 6 path jutsu has nothing to do with them being transmigrants,


Yes it does



> their rinnegan was just borrowed and the manga made it clear that they didnt have the access to its full power either way (limbo included),


No, they had the Dojutsu, they simply weren't as good as Madara with it.  



> Obito couldnt even handle the 2 eyes so that only makes it worse


That means he lacked the talent and overall power with the Dojutsu compared to it's transmigrant. 

You cannot just pick up a tranismigrant's evolved eyes and expect to be able to use it at max. You're not a transmigrant. 



> The choku tomo sharingan superiority was only mentioned once he had the EMS
> absolutely nothing that MS sasuke have thats even remotely as hax and broken as things like kamui,
> hell even MS itachi is superior to him, and madaras susanoo trumps his any day of the week


EMS Sasuke buries Itachi, not sure what you're talking about

There simply exists no proof that a non-transmigrant can attain EMS, let alone control it. It's no different than Obito failing to control Rinnegan. Why the fuck would Itachi be able to control EMS even if he could awaken it? He is not a transmigrant, he does not have Indra's chakra, Indra's power was EMS.

It's like saying Adult Baruto (some day) could control and sustain 50% Kurama's powers, while being in SM. He is not Ashura's transmigrant, Naruto is. Naruto has Ashura's chakra, Ashura controlled bijuu and Senjutsu and combined the powers with the power of body. 

There is no way to conclude that Baruto could do what Naruto did.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> Its amazing how you can type and hold Itachi's dick at the same time



I can type with one hand.

It is miraculous that you can type with two


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## Crow (Oct 8, 2015)

Let me correct that for Eliyua
He meant its amazing you can type, hold, and suck itachi's dick at the same damn time.
hahahaha


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## Sadgoob (Oct 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> People are seeing this very wrong. Talent is something you are born with (in cases you develop it, though). Saying "Sasuke is just more talented than Itachi because he was born with Indra's eyes" is taking away Sasuke's talent so that Itachi can be more talented. And that's unfair.



I see your point (the same you made with Hashirama) and agree with your interpretation. A lot of people though, myself included, are limiting the term talent to the IRL version of talent. 

That is, the ability to learn quickly and master technical skills efficiently. In that aspect of talent, Itachi IMO trumps all other ninja in the manga. But ninja talent goes beyond that point, like you said.

I suppose you could use a Batman/Superman analogy. People love Itachi because he pushes the limits of his more human talent, whereas transmigrants were basically born into the god tier.

Granted, Itachi has magic eyeballs, but I _think_ most people like him because his natural gifts go in many ways go  the gifts of being a Rikudo descendent. I know that's why I like him.

He forms seals faster, throws shuriken better, controls with genjutsu undetectably, finds items Orochimaru can't, detects Obito when others don't, predicts entire battles, etc. _just because_.

I enjoy trolling about the Yata and Totsuka's invincibility, but it's base Itachi threads that I enjoy seriously. His fundamental ninja skills and intellect are on an entirely different level to other S-ranks.

For example, if Hebi Sasuke with a strong 4.5 speed and 3-tomoe boost needed to  wrist seals to counter Sick Itachi's technical shuriken ability, and still came up short because Itachi undetectably used a clone feint, then most Jonin+ levels are fucked right there.

Even Killer Bee with Samehada was being pushed hard as well, relying on Samehada and the Hachibi (tentacles) to take painful hits, break genjutsu for him, and defense prep for shuriken, etc. and he still received warnings from Nagato and Itachi to deal with him.

And that's Killer Bee with freaking Samehada getting all that help and taking hits, one of the most fearsomely defensive and reactive base ninja in the manga that had earlier smacked around and pin-cushioned base Sasuke like nothing (before getting Samehada.)​


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## Mercurial (Oct 8, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> 1. Itachi effortlessly defeating Orochimaru in combat at age 11 is pure fan fiction all we saw on panel was Itachi rejecting the body transfer with his sharingan and cutting off Orochimaru's hand which is nothing more than a mosquito bite to him we know nothing about how the fight off panel with you know the same thing Sasuke did when he gained Orochimaru's powers in pt 2



Must be the reason for why Orochimaru (one of the most arrogant characters) admitted inferiority to Itachi calling him "an impossible dream".


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## Ghoztly (Oct 8, 2015)

Fundamentally Itachi was on another level. Can't be denied. Who the hell takes out Nagato's field of vision with kunai? Fools sharingan with his hand seals they are so fast. Top tier instincts, a master spy.

Problem is, once Asura/Indra happened...yeah.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2015)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Let me correct that for Eliyua
> He meant its amazing you can type, hold, and suck itachi's dick at the same damn time.
> hahahaha


Its amazing that your mom gave birth to you while doing all that.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its amazing that your mom gave birth to you while doing all that.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its amazing that your mom gave birth to you while doing all that.



Oh shit! Ok guys, it's getting too real. Itachi is amazing isn't he, so much love, so much hate....


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## Kurak (Oct 8, 2015)

Itachi was just poorly written. 11  years old in ANBU? Kage's wisdom at 7? Why not give him EMS at 6th birthday? Im sure when he was still in his mother's womb he could solo prime hiruzen.


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## Mercurial (Oct 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its amazing that your mom gave birth to you while doing all that.



That was like a Kamui Raikiri blitz. 



+rep for this Solo King worth response.


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## ARGUS (Oct 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes it does
> 
> No, they had the Dojutsu, they simply weren't as good as Madara with it.


Untrue. the manga has made it clear that only the original weilder can access  all the rinnegans powers to the max. 
them not being the original weilders already shuts this option for them down 



> That means he lacked the talent and overall power with the Dojutsu compared to it's transmigrant.


Lacking Talent has got nothing to do with them not being the original weilders, 

people like minato or hashirama have more than enough talent to awaken the sharingan 
but because they lack the uchiha dna they simply cannot awaken it in the first place, 

your argument emphasises that nagato and obitos talent was the reason whhy they couldnt use it limbo, but its not even their dojutsu to begin with,
so it doesnt really hold 



> You cannot just pick up a tranismigrant's evolved eyes and expect to be able to use it at max. You're not a transmigrant.



Well, if the rinnegan belongs to the transmigrant then even another transmigrant wont be able to use that eye to the max, 
being the original weilder is the main requirement to begin with 

Madara wont be able to use rinnegan sasukes eye to the max and viceversa 



> EMS Sasuke buries Itachi, not sure what you're talking about


Never said that he doesnt, 
PS trumps itachi 



> There simply exists no proof that a non-transmigrant can attain EMS, let alone control it. It's no different than Obito failing to control Rinnegan. Why the fuck would Itachi be able to control EMS even if he could awaken it? He is not a transmigrant, he does not have Indra's chakra, Indra's power was EMS.


Where are you getting the whole transmigrant thing from? 
thats only valid for the rinnegan 

the only requirement to awaken the EMS, is to first have the MS, and then transplanting the brothers eyes. 

Controlling EMS wouldnt be much of an issue, especially since itachi wont even have the drawbacks of MS. 



> It's like saying Adult Baruto (some day) could control and sustain 50% Kurama's powers, while being in SM. He is not Ashura's transmigrant, Naruto is. Naruto has Ashura's chakra, Ashura controlled bijuu and Senjutsu and combined the powers with the power of body.


AShura was not a jin. never was this stated or implied. 
his power was the avatar derived from his own chakra and SIx path senjutsu 

being a perfect jin has never really been the ashura transmigrant. only naruto is the known jin transmigrant, Hashirama and Ashura werent 

the borutoo example is purely upto speculation 


> There is no way to conclude that Baruto could do what Naruto did.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 8, 2015)

A random Uchiha could attain EMS provided the Uchiha has awakened his sharingan, and obtained the MS. Sasuke's was special because he awakened a choku form like Madara, due to their connection. 

Itachi could just as easily have gotten EMS.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 9, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> As for Hebi sasuke losing to 14 year old Itachi who awakened the MS, joined akatsuki, threatened it's mastermind, was acting as a double agent, and clowned orochimaru
> I'm just gna go ahead and say hell the fk no



Everything you just mentioned...seems like an argument to the contrary.


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## ARGUS (Oct 9, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Everything you just mentioned...seems like an argument to the contrary.



It's directed to those who think Hebi sasuke beats 14 yr old Itachi 
How's it an argument for the contrary


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## Nikushimi (Oct 9, 2015)

Oh, you were being sarcastic.


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## LostSelf (Oct 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I see your point (the same you made with Hashirama) and agree with your interpretation. A lot of people though, myself included, are limiting the term talent to the IRL version of talent.
> 
> That is, the ability to learn quickly and master technical skills efficiently. In that aspect of talent, Itachi IMO trumps all other ninja in the manga. But ninja talent goes beyond that point, like you said.
> 
> ...



Well, yeah. I agree with this. (Even though it would be a hard choice between him and Minato, who was another man who pushed his human limits). And because i also appreciate this kind of characters instead of the god-tiers.

I always thought jutsus like Susano'o, Amaterasu, using Kyuubi, etc. ruined the cool fights where strategy and advantages were the key. (It completely destroyed Sasuke's amazing fights using those, and his cool raiton variants). 

However, Itachi remained incredible because he kept using strategies, trickery, feinting, etc. And shinobis who plan ahead and are so tricky are of my favorites.


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## Crow (Oct 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its amazing that your mom gave birth to you while doing all that.



hahahaha, this cracked me up.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 9, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Must be the reason for why Orochimaru (one of the most arrogant characters) admitted inferiority to Itachi calling him "an impossible dream".



He was talking about taking his body he was too strong which is why he switched focus to Sasuke


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## Arles Celes (Oct 9, 2015)

Well, if Itachi got Sasuke's eyes which contain his chakra which-likely- includes his transmigrant chakra then it would make Itachi a semi-transmigrant too.

Without those eyes Itachi would get progressively weaker though even if he never got sick since he would eventually go blind. 

I wonder how Indra himself avoided blindness after getting MS. Maybe being RS son prevented blindness with Sasuke and Madara only getting some of his chakra and not all of it? Hmmm...


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## Sadgoob (Oct 9, 2015)

It seems that way. Obito's eyes never seemed to lose their light despite him spamming Kamui all the time. Presumably, Hashirama's cells kept them from declining. Indra likely had a much stronger body than modern day Uchiha (and Senju, except for Hashirama) because his Rikudo blood wasn't diluted throughout the centuries. It'd be akin to Kakashi after his Rikudo power-up.​


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## LostSelf (Oct 9, 2015)

Sasuke was going blind as much as i recall.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 10, 2015)

Eh, I feel like Sasuke didn't "awaken" the transmigrant deal until later.

MS Sasuke was worse than MS Itachi, IMO.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 10, 2015)

Sasuke made the mistake of spamming susanoo like a god damn katon jutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 10, 2015)

The whole "your eyes are better than Itachi's" deal was bullshit., from a reader standpoint.


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## LostSelf (Oct 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Eh, I feel like Sasuke didn't "awaken" the transmigrant deal until later.
> 
> MS Sasuke was worse than MS Itachi, IMO.



I don't think you awaken that, actually. Or at the very least, is not affirmed. Otherwise Obito wouldn't have awaken it, or Hashirama's cells wouldn't have worked for him.

The thing is that probably Kishimoto came up with that transmigrant bullshit later on, making Neji more right when he said that destiny decides who's strong or not.

Oh, wait... No. There's Gai .


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## Vice (Oct 10, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I don't think you awaken that, actually. Or at the very least, is not affirmed. Otherwise Obito wouldn't have awaken it, or Hashirama's cells wouldn't have worked for him.
> 
> The thing is that probably Kishimoto came up with that transmigrant bullshit later on, making Neji more right when he said that destiny decides who's strong or not.
> 
> Oh, wait... No. There's Gai .



Guy is an outlier, Neji was still right all along.


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## Pirao (Oct 11, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> You guys are funny. 11 years old Itachi being stronger than people like 11 year old Madara/Hashirama doesn't equate to him potentially reaching/surpassing their Prime level. He reached his individual peak sooner than them, that's all. Speed of development can't properly show maximum potential.



Pretty much. Guess who was stronger at 10 years of age between kakashi and Naruto. Guess who is stronger with both as adults. 

/thread


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