# How fast is Kirin?



## Veracity (Apr 13, 2017)

Basically what the title says. There's never been a general consensus on how fast the techinque is in relation to other characters. Some say it puts Itachi's reactions above people like Minato and Tobirama and others don't give Itachi credit at all. So...how do y'all feel about the lighting bolt?

Also:
• Who can mentally react to Kirin?
• Who can physically react to Kirin?


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

How fast is lightning? You have your answer.



Veracity said:


> Who can mentally react to Kirin?



All gods, Obito, Itachi, Kisame, Minato, Tobirama, A4. Can't think of any other Shinobi who can mentally react to Kirin. (god tiers include Hashirama and Mads so calm your shit down guys)



Veracity said:


> Who can physically react to Kirin?



All gods, Obito, Kisame, Minato, Tobirama and Itachi A4. Essentially the same roster, could be some I forgot.

Itachi did react to Kirin, which is an incredibly impressive feat, but Minato was dodging A4, one of the fastest Shinobi alive, and A4 was dodging Amaterasu like nobodies business. These guys can obviously handle Kirin.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 13, 2017)

Very fast

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Android (Apr 13, 2017)

Hald dead Itachi reacted to it mentally by activating Susanoo .
Anyone above that in terms of reaction speed should have no problems recting to it .


Troyse22 said:


> All gods





Troyse22 said:


> Kisame

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 13, 2017)

The thing with susanoo and kamui phasing is you just need to react mentally.  So even if you can't react physically there is no problem . So guys like itachi  Ems Sasuke minato obito won't have any trouble if they are mentally prepared but you need a suitable defense as well guys like kisame and other who have neither physical way nor any instant defense can do nothing against kirin even if they can react mentally

A4 ,KCM nardo, Minato and all should reactentally and avoid it phsically.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 13, 2017)

Itachi reacting to kirin is a massive outlier in the naruto verse...

Cuz no one...Not even rikudo tier characters come anywhere close to lightning speed in movement or reactions feat wise

Not by a long shot

The best naruto speed feats...performed by the likes of RSM naruto, 8th gate Gai, rinnegan sasuke, and freaking Kaguya, are calced at massively hypersonic+...*which CAPS at mach 8000...It can be as low as mach 1000*...*Narutos best speedsters in the verse fit somewhere in that line*

Wanna guess how fast lightning is relative to the speed of sound?

I bet most wouldnt come remotely close...

*Lightning travels at mach 60,000*...Yes...thats *Sixty Thousand times the speed of sound...*

*Thats almost 8 times faster than the mangas best speed feats...*

Well lightning actually travels at *Mach 58,000*...But i mean...Whats a little rounding?

No one...I repeat...NO ONE in the naruto verse can react to real lightning speeds

Completely off the table

Real lightning would make RSM narutos feat of blitzing kaguya look like a joke

*As lightning moving at even HALF...No...a QUARTER speed still DWARFS narutos top speed*...Even if we high balled naruto and said he was the peak of massively hypersonic speeds...So mach 8000 on the dot, no less. Lightning still makes him look like he is standing still at 25% total speed...clocking in at mach 14,500

Its far more likely itachi did something akin to aim dodging kirin...or reacted to sasukes hand movement signaling he was about to strike with kirin...

As its physically impossible, even by naruto rikudo standards, for itachi to have reacted to the lightning bolt itself

So either kirin moves FAR slower than real lightning, or itachi reacted to something else in play in that scenario that wasnt the lightning bolt.

No one in this manga could logically be a lightning timer...

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Bonly (Apr 13, 2017)

The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second so that's how fast Kirin is. Outside of the top speedsters like Juubi Jins, 8th gated Gai, etc. I doubt anyone would be able to physically dodge it but mentally I'm sure most people can react to it since it forms a dragon or whatever before it strikes down.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Hald dead Itachi reacted to it mentally by activating Susanoo .
> Anyone above that in terms of reaction speed should have no problems recting to it .



Don't misunderstand me, all gods meant everyone like EMS Madara (bottom of god tier imo) and above, and the listed Shinobi are those under god who can react


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Itachi reacting to kirin is a massive outlier in the naruto verse...


No it's not. Lightning timing can range anywhere from hypersonic to sub relativistic depending on the manner of the dodge/step of lightning. Pretty sure it got calced a while back and was in the hundreds of mach but the calc was thrown out. FRS itself is hypersonic and anyone on Deva level can dodge that point blank.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> No it's not.


Yes...

Yes it is...

If kirin is even half as fast as real, naturally occurring lightning...No one in the entire manga has a prayer at even mentally reacting to it

Not just itachi...Even the likes of kaguya have no chance

The naruto manga is just straight up too slow

Lightning is over 7 times faster than narutos best speedsters even if we high ball the shit out of them




Dr. White said:


> RS itself is hypersonic and anyone on Deva level can dodge that point blank.



...

Thats because the manga has had hypersonic characters since part 1 Rock lee...

The manga wipes its ass with hypersonic tiers  by part 2...

This is also irrelevant to my point as hypersonic speeds are absurdly slow compared to lightning

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yes...
> 
> Yes it is...
> 
> ...


So you're being willfully ignorant then? Read my post. Reacting to something doesn't mean being as fast or faster, it matters on the distance, and how far one can move...Hence why there are a shit ton of people who can bullet time but aren't as fast as bullets. There are legitmately dozens of lightning timers in the OBD who aren't fucking lightning speed and their speed is derived from the manner they dodged, the step in the lightning, distance from the lightning source, and how far they actually moved to dodge; using the known speed of lightning to derive theirs.

So stop making ignorant claims when you don't know what you're talking about.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Tri (Apr 13, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Who can mentally react to Kirin?


Basically anyone who can make the conclusion that a giant ass lightning dragon isn't good for your health while Sasuke waves his hand like an asshole. 


Veracity said:


> Who can physically react to Kirin?


Not too sure, Zetsu explained explicitly (however reliable he may be is up for debate) why it couldn't be evaded so I'll just say "no one" for now I guess. I'm not going to divulge into a mountain of numbers and calculations and put the exact coordinates and time Naruto got from point A to point B so the others can debate that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2017)



Reactions: Informative 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> So you're being willfully ignorant then? Read my post. Reacting to something doesn't mean being as fast or faster


Thats kinda how speed tiers work actually

If you can mentally react to something of that speed, your reactions are now in that tier

But no one in the naruto manga has a feat that even comes close to licking lightnings ass



Dr. White said:


> it matters on the distance, and how far one can move


The distance was irrelevant

As Itachi couldnt manage a physical reaction

He metaly reacted which is impossible even for god tiers in this verse



Dr. White said:


> Hence why there are a shit ton of people who can bullet time but aren't as fast as bullets.


Thats called aim dodging...Thats how spiderman, batman, GA, RH, Ed elric, and literally any human level character dodge fire arms...and something i already said itachi likely did...



Dr. White said:


> There are legitmately dozens of lightning timers in the OBD who aren't fucking lightning speed and their speed is derived from the manner they dodged, the step in the lightning, distance from the lightning source, and how far they actually moved to dodge.


When i say "lightning timer" i mean someone who...can physically...dodge...lightning...

And no one in this manga can do that as lightning is straight up out of narutos speed tier



Dr. White said:


> So stop making ignorant claims when you don't know what you're talking about.


This is ironic as hell


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## Serene Grace (Apr 13, 2017)

A decent amount of people can react to Kirin. Lighting moves at about 224,000 miles per hour, then we add the fact that Zetsu outright stated that its about as fast as a millosecond



WorldsStrongest said:


> Not even rikudo tier characters come anywhere close to lightning speed in movement or reactions feat wise


Naruto reacted to a point blank laser that was stated to be light speed(1)(2), we then have Sasuke thats slightly more reactive thanks to the sharingan/rinnegan as well as being faster than him. There's also Guys speed that was literally distorting space itself, which is unqualifiable (you can say it's a gag feat, but I'd still venture that hes faster than lighting). You could argue that lightning speed was problem for high tiers, but saying everyone is a stretch


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> Basically anyone who can make the conclusion that a giant ass lightning dragon isn't good for your health *while Sasuke waves his hand like an asshole.*



Actually lol'd at bold, he's so cocky at this time it's disgusting

Reactions: Like 2


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats kinda how speed tiers work actually
> 
> If you can mentally react to something of that speed, your reactions are now in that tier
> 
> But no one in the naruto manga has a feat that even comes close to licking lightnings ass


No it's not. If something is moving 1 hundred meters per second with the surface area of an inch, and you dodge an inch before it reaches you, you are not moving 100m per second. You do the math based on the speed of the bullet, the distance, and how much you move in that time frame. Bring actual arguments.



> The distance was irrelevant


> Talking about speed which is distance over time
> distance is irrelevant.
> Try again




> Thats called aim dodging...Thats how spiderman, batman, GA, RH, Ed elric, and literally any human level character dodge fire arms...and something i already said itachi likely did...


False. Bullet timing is different than aim dodging. Aim dodging is predicting the trajectory and moving before the projectile is fired hence *Aim* "dodging". *bullet timing* is reacting minutely after the bullet has been fired.


Once again know your terms.



> When i say "lightning timer" i mean someone who...can physically...dodge...lightning...
> 
> And no one in this manga can do that as lightning is straight up out of narutos speed tier


There are different qualities to dodging in of itself and different distances at which lightning is dodged, something you seem incapable of wrapping your head around. Do some homework on actual physics and than come back to me.

From the looks of it you aren't even aware what lightning is. There are multiple steps at varying speeds that to us are perceived as one bolt.




> This is ironic as hell


Lmao, or you could just read? I tried to be civil in my first post but your undeserved arrogance prevents you from reading and fully comprehend the argument being presented to you. Actually read the links I'm giving you to learn from people who know more about certain topics than you instead of getting salty and pulling shit from your ass.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Someone call the cops, we have to stop @Dr. White because he keeps murdering @WorldsStrongest

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> A decent amount of people can react to Kirin. Lighting moves at about 224,000 miles per hour, then we add the fact that Zetsu outright stated that its about as fast as a millosecond
> 
> 
> Naruto reacted to a point blank laser that was stated to be light speed(1)(2), we then have Sasuke thats slightly more reactive thanks to the sharingan/rinnegan as well as being faster than him. There's also Guys speed that was literally distorting space itself, which is unqualifiable (you can say it's a gag feat, but I'd still venture that hes faster than lighting). You could argue that lightning speed was problem for high tiers, but saying everyone is a stretch


Those aren't real lasers. Energy constructed from chakra should not be equalized with natural lasers because of inconsitency. Just like Mecha path's laser (which actually would have more going for it). There are a bunch of "plasma beams" that are misinterpreted as real lasers which clearly aren't light speed.

Which is why dodging Raiton wolf isn't the same as dodging Kirin which is natural lightning.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Naruto reacted to a point blank laser that was stated to be light speed


By the DB...

Which is filled with nonsense hyperbole...

Pretty sure it puts temari at Universal+ Level in DC...

Statements like that should be taken with a lot of salt

Especially when narutos best feat, as a collective manga is calced at like mach 3000+



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> we then have Sasuke thats slightly more reactive thanks to the sharingan/rinnegan as well as being faster than him.


The most powerful character in this manga was blitzed with no reaction by a speed of no higher than mach 8000 from a distance of several dozen feet...

There is no way naruto can react to light, which clocks in at mach 800,000... from a distance of less than 2 feet with that in mind

There is literally no way



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> There's also Guys speed that was literally distorting space itself, which is unqualifiable


No idea on that one, ive seen it said you need only be relatvistic speeds to0 accomplish that, but ive also seen it said gai nearly ripped a hole in teh fabric of reality with that feat...

I dont believe either one...just to clarify...I have no clue what speeds gai needs to move at to do that shit


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## Veracity (Apr 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> A decent amount of people can react to Kirin. Lighting moves at about 224,000 miles per hour, then we add the fact that Zetsu outright stated that its about as fast as a millosecond
> 
> 
> Naruto reacted to a point blank laser that was stated to be light speed(1)(2), we then have Sasuke thats slightly more reactive thanks to the sharingan/rinnegan as well as being faster than him. There's also Guys speed that was literally distorting space itself, which is unqualifiable (you can say it's a gag feat, but I'd still venture that hes faster than lighting). You could argue that lightning speed was problem for high tiers, but saying everyone is a stretch


I think more than one attack has been stated to be "light speed "in the DB but they really aren't. It's just hyperbole


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2017)

For anyone who wants an in depth look at what I am talking about, here is an accepted calc which grants the feat performer mach 200+movement speed/reactions.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> No it's not. If something is moving 1 hundred meters per second with the surface area of an inch, and you dodge an inch before it reaches you, you are not moving 100m per second. You do the math based on the speed of the bullet, the distance, and how much you move in that time frame. Bring actual arguments.


Kirins AoE and size were damn near the size of a fortress...Not exactly an inch

And itachi never physically moved at all...Which is my entire point

He mentally reacted



Dr. White said:


> > Talking about speed which is distance over time
> > distance is irrelevant.
> > Try again


I meant the distance itachi moved...Because he didnt move whatsoever...

I stated that in the next sentence after you quoted me out of context champ


WorldsStrongest said:


> The distance was irrelevant
> 
> *As Itachi couldnt manage a physical reaction*





Dr. White said:


> False. Bullet timing is different than aim dodging. Aim dodging is predicting the trajectory and moving before the projectile is fired hence *Aim* "dodging". *bullet timing* is reacting minutely after the bullet has been fired.


My entire point is that itachi couldnt have even minutely reacted to lightning provided it moved at its natural speed i proposed



Dr. White said:


> There are different qualities to dodging in of itself and different distances at which lightning is dodged, something you seem incapable of wrapping your head around.


No im perfectly aware...and i stated as much in my first post...

I straight up said if the lightning in question is moving at its proposed natural speeds...No one in this manga can dodge it...



WorldsStrongest said:


> So either kirin moves FAR slower than real lightning, or itachi reacted to something else in play in that scenario that wasnt the lightning bolt.





WorldsStrongest said:


> If kirin is even half as fast as real, naturally occurring lightning



Im more than aware that lightnings speed varies, its return stroke back into the sky for instance borders on Light speeds

Now i didnt know lightning could move at slower than the proposed speed, but i did know it can move higher

If it moves slower, of course people in the manga have a chance at dodging it

But if it moved at the proposed speed i initially mentioned, i dont see how they have a chance



Dr. White said:


> From the looks of it you aren't even aware what lightning is. There are multiple steps at varying speeds that to us are perceived as one bolt.


Yeah no i got that...

But as i said earlier...My proposed speed is too much for the manga to feasibly react to

But a lesser degree of speed? I dont see why not




Dr. White said:


> Lmao, or you could just read? I tried to be civil in my first post but your undeserved arrogance prevents you from reading and fully comprehend the argument being presented to you


You tried to be civil?

Do tell which of us starting slinging insults first chief



Dr. White said:


> Actually read the links I'm giving you to learn from people who know more about certain topics than you instead of getting salty and pulling shit from your ass.


Im being salty?

Whos the one throwing insults here for legit no reason?

Im pretty sure teh worst thing ive said to you so far was "ironic"


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2017)

Oh my god I literally can't. The cognitive dissonance is too much. Hope you other guys learned a bit, back to my hiatus

Reactions: Funny 2


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 13, 2017)

Kirins presence can be known before  so you just need to have fast enough shunshin to avoid the AOE kirin covers Physically IMO. You need to react to sasukes execution speed not lighting.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Apr 13, 2017)

Quick someone post the popcorn eating gif, this shit getting interesting

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

@Charmed you can have your rating rights taken away or be banned for spam disliking a person's post.

Just gonna throw that out there


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## Tri (Apr 13, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Quick someone post the popcorn eating gif, this shit getting interesting


Sorry, none of us had the shunshin speed to get popcorn before it ended.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Charmed (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> @Charmed you can have your rating rights taken away or be banned for spam disliking a person's post.
> 
> Just gonna throw that out there


? I disliked some of your posts, what's the problem with that o.0?


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Charmed said:


> ? I disliked some of your posts, what's the problem with that o.0?



You're disliking an excessive amount, trust me, when I first joined I almost got banned for spam disliking @ARGUS ' posts 

Idc if you dislike some of my posts, but I will report if you continue to spam, i'll cut you some slack since you're new though

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Charmed (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You're disliking an excessive amount, trust me, when I first joined I almost got banned for spam disliking @ARGUS ' posts
> 
> Idc if you dislike some of my posts, but I will report if you continue to spam, i'll cut you some slack since you're new though



I've disliked others too today lol, but also, gave rep and likes to others, so yeah I don't know what's the big deal.


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 13, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Quick someone post the popcorn eating gif, this shit getting interesting

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Charmed said:


> I've disliked others too today lol, but also, gave rep and likes to others, so yeah I don't know what's the big deal.



Don't know what to tell you, you're just revenge disliking because I disliked a single post of yours

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Charmed (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Don't know what to tell you, you're just revenge disliking because I disliked a single post of yours



So I can't dislike you couse you said Kisame can react to Kirin? :''v


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Charmed said:


> So I can't dislike you couse you said Kisame can react to Kirin? :''v



His feats suggest he can. Being able to perform complex moves while Killer Bee was attempting a blitz in V1 is pretty significant, especially when this is the same Bee who was actually closer to Kisame than he was to Sasuke and Sasuke couldn't even mentally react, but Kisame reacted and performed a series of complex moves in order to take as little damage at possible.





That takes some serious reactions, speed and strength to move Samehada that quickly.

Sorry, but based on feats Kisame can react to Kirin. Granted he doesn't have a hope in hell of surviving a direct hit by it, he can react most likely, perhaps blocking with Samehada to take some of the blow (since i'd rate Samehada>V3 Susanoo in durability)


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## Veracity (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> His feats suggest he can. Being able to perform complex moves while Killer Bee was attempting a blitz in V1 is pretty significant, especially when this is the same Bee who was actually closer to Kisame than he was to Sasuke and Sasuke couldn't even mentally react, but Kisame reacted and performed a series of complex moves in order to take as little damage at possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How the hell is Samehada more durable than V3 Sussano like what ..

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Veracity said:


> How the hell is Samehada more durable than V3 Sussano like what ..



Samehada has been electrocuted, stabbed, chopped, slammed with V2 Lariat and punted by Kisame. All of which it showed no signs of physical damage. Samehada is quite the durability titan.


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## Charmed (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> His feats suggest he can. Being able to perform complex moves while Killer Bee was attempting a blitz in V1 is pretty significant, especially when this is the same Bee who was actually closer to Kisame than he was to Sasuke and Sasuke couldn't even mentally react, but Kisame reacted and performed a series of complex moves in order to take as little damage at possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that doesn't look like enough to react to lightning  o.0!
wasn't that because Kisame is a Kenjutsu expert like Bee? So he can fight very well against another swordsman.

Also, is there any proof that states that Kirin actually is not LS? like, I don't  know, so all Raiton jutsu are LS couse they are lightining too?


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## Veracity (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Samehada has been electrocuted, stabbed, chopped, slammed with V2 Lariat and punted by Kisame. All of which it showed no signs of physical damage. Samehada is quite the durability titan.


If you take all the chakra away from those attacks( cause Samehada does absorb chakra)  then it has never been hit with anything worth while. It was in pain after absorbing Katon. It's no where close to Sussano in durability.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Charmed (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Samehada has been electrocuted, stabbed, chopped, slammed with V2 Lariat and punted by Kisame. All of which it showed no signs of physical damage. Samehada is quite the durability titan.



So what if Tsunade punches Samehada with all her might? couse she was able to break Susano though, I don't know about Susano versions lol x'D


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Charmed said:


> that doesn't look like enough to react to lightning o.0!
> wasn't that because Kisame is a Kenjutsu expert like Bee? So he can fight very well against another swordsman.



Just because he's a master swordsman doesn't change the fact that Kisame has got some serious reactionary feats under his belt, most of which are criminally underrated.



Charmed said:


> Also, is there any proof that states that Kirin actually is not LS? like, I don't know, so all Raiton jutsu are LS couse they are lightining too?



LS=Lightning style?

It's stated that Sasuke gathers the lightning that's in the clouds and directs it at his target. He uses the lightning in the atmosphere, not his own Raiton, hence why he was able to use a monster jutsu despite his chakra being almost totally drained.


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## Tri (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Samehada has been electrocuted, stabbed, chopped, slammed with V2 Lariat and punted by Kisame. All of which it showed no signs of physical damage. Samehada is quite the durability titan.


iirc didn't pieces of Samehada come off when the V2 lariat hit it? I'd like someone to get that page to confirm that for me please.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Veracity said:


> If you take all the chakra away from those attacks( cause Samehada does absorb chakra)  then it has never been hit with anything worth while. It was in pain after absorbing Katon. It's no where close to Sussano in durability.



Aw man I was hoping to avoid Pain vs Difficulty 

Samehada showed no visible signs of damage when he was burned, so I suppose this isn't the same thing.
And the V2 cloak was only ripped off after contact, not before



Bee* was still in V2 at the moment of impact.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> iirc didn't pieces of Samehada come off when the V2 lariat hit it? I'd like someone to get that page to confirm that for me please.





Me and @Sapherosth had this discussion, to which we had to agree to disagree.

My opinion was that it's clearly blood, since Kisame had his chest and stomach blown wide open.
He argued it was a hole in Samehada, a fair assessment, I don't agree though.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 13, 2017)

As fast as Zetsu mentioned of course.

Regardless, Naruto characters certainly have what it takes to deal with lighting, even if Kishimoto does not draw the manga in a way that exemplifies this, we know that's what he believes as Gai a performed relativistic feat. Kakashi has been confirmed to cut a lighting bolt in half, which wouldn't happen any other way than him reacting and thrusting his arm towards the oncoming bolt.

Manga authors are not scientists, so it's not surprising what's drawn is not totally accurate with calcs and stuff, so when possible, indirect author statements through characters should be used as reference.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Veracity (Apr 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Aw man I was hoping to avoid Pain vs Difficulty
> 
> Samehada showed no visible signs of damage when he was burned, so I suppose this isn't the same thing.
> And the V2 cloak was only ripped off after contact, not before
> ...


Samehada was still absorbing its chakra though. He literally lives and replenishes himself off of chakra, so being hit with a big ball of chakra wouldn't be to bad honestly. And even if he did take the complete force of V2 Lariat( which he didn't) that's still below RC durability.


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## Charmed (Apr 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Just because he's a master swordsman doesn't change the fact that Kisame has got some serious reactionary feats under his belt, most of which are criminally underrated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No like, LS = Light Speed.

Couse thunder travels at LS right? or maybe not?
So is Raiton = thunder , so raiton travels at LS.
That's what I think when people say Kirin is light speed 
And it just doesn't look like it, I mean, not many shinobi are even breaking the soundbarrier are they?.
----

And back to Kisame, well I think he looks fast in that fight, couse he and Killer Bee are both experts with weapons, in this case swords right?
Like for example, Sasori having an extremly fast Kenjutsu fight against Chiyo, fighting at  that speed, tobe able of doing that, means you can read and react to the opponents kenjutsu skills. That's what Kisame did against Bee, but I don't know, that  doesn't mean he can react to LS


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## Charmed (Apr 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Me and @Sapherosth had this discussion, to which we had to agree to disagree.
> 
> My opinion was that it's clearly blood, since Kisame had his chest and stomach blown wide open.
> He argued it was a hole in Samehada, a fair assessment, I don't agree though.


in this scan, is Kisame's blood on the samehada, couse Kisame stopped Bee's Lariat, which pushed Samehada to Kisame's chest, Samehada injured Kisame because of that Lariat. You know what I'm sayin' :'v

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tri (Apr 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Me and @Sapherosth had this discussion, to which we had to agree to disagree.
> 
> My opinion was that it's clearly blood, since Kisame had his chest and stomach blown wide open.
> He argued it was a hole in Samehada, a fair assessment, I don't agree though.


Well since you already had this argument I don't think I'll instigate the same exact argument. I was initially referring to the pieces of Samehada we clearly see flying off the sword indicating some sort of damage. Regardless thanks for confirming my thought with the page.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 14, 2017)

Charmed said:


> And back to Kisame, well I think he looks fast in that fight, couse he and Killer Bee are both experts with weapons, in this case swords right?



He looked fast because he is fast man, at least in CQC and reactions and stuff.



Charmed said:


> Like for example, Sasori having an extremly fast Kenjutsu fight against Chiyo, fighting at that speed, tobe able of doing that, means you can read and react to the opponents kenjutsu skills.



Let's not get carried away, Sasori is not a Kenjutsu expert. Fighting with puppets using Kenjutsu does not equate to that person being a skilled Kenjutsu users.

And Chiyo and Sasori had a good bit of knowledge on each other, and as fellow puppet masters they can anticipate each others moves via their finger movements and arm movements.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 14, 2017)

Charmed said:


> in this scan, is Kisame's blood on the samehada, couse Kisame stopped Bee's Lariat, which pushed Samehada to Kisame's chest, Samehada injured Kisame because of that Lariat. You know what I'm sayin' :'v



I agree.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Ashi (Apr 14, 2017)

As fast as Zetsu said it was



Charmed said:


> in this scan, is Kisame's blood on the samehada, couse Kisame stopped Bee's Lariat, which pushed Samehada to Kisame's chest, Samehada injured Kisame because of that Lariat. You know what I'm sayin' :'v

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Charmed (Apr 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> He looked fast because he is fast man, at least in CQC and reactions and stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah but he uses swords with his puppets, and hi still was using those swords even faster than Kisame can use Samehada, at least it looks faster look





They seem to move  lot faster and fight a lot faster than a lot of characters, including Kisame.
Even the iron weapons get destroyed, as you can see in that last scan.
I don't remember other Kenjutsu fight were the weapons are destroyed like this due to the speed they're fighting.
Being able to read your opponents fighting speed and fight at the same speed countering each attack is pretty cool.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 14, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Yeah but he uses swords with his puppets, and hi still was using those swords even faster than Kisame can use Samehada, at least it looks faster look
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They're not slow, but they're not faster in CQC than most other kage level Shinobi. That scan is not more impressive than Kisame's reactions vs Bee since the Kisame vs Bee incident is much faster than that.

Puppets are canonically weak of course their shit gets destroyed easy. Also I don't recall weapons being destroyed, but the bodies of the puppets themselves.

Even so, swords are certainly not unbreakable, as even Suigetsu was able to destroy one of Bee's super vibrato blades. Them being destroyed in the Chiyo vs Sasori battle is not due to speed.


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## Charmed (Apr 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> They're not slow, but they're not faster in CQC than most other kage level Shinobi. That scan is not more impressive than Kisame's reactions vs Bee since the Kisame vs Bee incident is much faster than that.
> 
> Puppets are canonically weak of course their shit gets destroyed easy. Also I don't recall weapons being destroyed, but the bodies of the puppets themselves.
> 
> Even so, swords are certainly not unbreakable, as even Suigetsu was able to destroy one of Bee's super vibrato blades. Them being destroyed in the Chiyo vs Sasori battle is not due to speed.



Prove Kisame uses his sword faster than Sasori and Chiyo use their puppets?

Yes,depends of the puppet, but Scorpion is pretty resistant actually. And Sasori's replacement body too.
Actually, you see puppet's not resistant? why because, Sakura could punch and break them? pretty much any shinobi that takes sakura's punch won't be in good shape either (puppet's can get repaird and don't feel anything though).
Or because swords were slicing puppets?, Kisame has been sliced by Kunai :'v...
So actually Puppets are better than most ninja in resistance, it's good you don't feel anything and if you loos an arm, it can be replaced with no effort etc..

It's due to speed and the friction generated by this speed, as far as I know, all blades are made of steel, except Samehada, it's made of.. I don't know shark flesh or something lol. But yeah most swords and Kunai are made of steel.
It doesn't have to do with the quality of the weapon itself, couse any blade, as canon, would slice Kisame like butter as well as every other Shinobi (only Raikages are not being slashed couse of Raiton no Yoroi, and maybe another few shinobis with specially resistant bodies).
Although Kisame can heal himself if he gets cut, but yeah, he can get sliced :'3


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## Troyse22 (Apr 14, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Prove Kisame uses his sword faster than Sasori and Chiyo use their puppets?



Go look at the scan I provided, Bee was within inches of Kisame and he managed to counter a 3 way blitz, I don't think you realize just how huge that reactionary feat is.



Charmed said:


> ctually, you see puppet's not resistant? why because, Sakura could punch and break them? pretty much any shinobi that takes sakura's punch won't be in good shape either (puppet's can get repaird and don't feel anything thoug



Sakura 

Most Shinobi would be fine after taking a punch from Sakura, at least most decently durable Shinobi. 

Sakura was also making the puppets literally disintegrate, i'd love to see her do that to a Shinobi 




Charmed said:


> It's due to speed and the friction generated by this speed, as far as I know, all blades are made of steel, except Samehada, it's made of.. I don't know shark flesh or something lol. But yeah most swords and Kunai are made of steel.



I'm guessing Samehada is the sword that Kisame's mom banged in order to give birth to Kisame. (If mods can say shit like Hateboner and circlejerk I can say this  ) I mean Kisame has legit gills on his shoulders, Samehada must be his father, there's no explanation 



Charmed said:


> It doesn't have to do with the quality of the weapon itself, couse any blade, as canon, would slice Kisame like butter as well as every other Shinobi (only Raikages are not being slashed couse of Raiton no Yoroi, and maybe another few shinobis with specially resistant bodies).



Kisame's weakness has always been piercing and slicing attacks, but it's rare that he's ever hit by them unless the Shinobi he's battling possesses some kind of advantage (Killer Bee, three way blitz, Asuma, Fuuton that he couldn't see etc)



Charmed said:


> Although Kisame can heal himself if he gets cut, but yeah, he can get sliced :'3



Implying that a cut is going to slow him down in the least 

The dude was fucking chilling with a sword in his shoulder until Killer Bee hit him so hard it knocked it out of him. He would barely notice cuts from Sasori's puppets.

Sasori would never be able to best Kisame in Kenjutsu with one of his puppets, it's just absurd to think that.


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## Charmed (Apr 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Go look at the scan I provided, Bee was within inches of Kisame and he managed to counter a 3 way blitz, I don't think you realize just how huge that reactionary feat is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



which one? the one were he put samehada infront of him to tank lariat?, that's not really impressive o.0
Again, show me Kisame using his sword to attack someone as fast as Chiyo and Sasori's puppets do...

I don't think so, Sakura's punch is very very strong.
Nope, the fact, that humans actually do have blood and bones, and feel pain, means, they  deal hits worse than puppets.
For example, Sakura punching apuppet, breaks the puppet, if Sakura hits a ninja, she's breaking bones and causing internal bleeding, so yeah, that's not a very good condition to be in. A puppet can be replaced or restored, ninjas usually only have 1 body and that's it.

Kisame is gonna feel the poison 7u7


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## Stonaem (Apr 14, 2017)

Dr. White said:


>


 Bless your soul. I needed something like that link


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## The Great One (Apr 14, 2017)

Kirin is not light speed cause lighting itself is not light speed.

Lightning travels at around 220,000 miles per hour when traveling downwards from a cloud.and then reaches a speed of 220,000,000 miles per hour when moving skyward on its return stroke.

The lightning strike itself doesn’t even come close to the speed of light, even its return stroke, which is in most cases the faster stroke, doesn’t go as fast as the speed of light. This makes sense, because lightning isn’t made out of photons like light is, and it is assumed that photons are the only things which can travel at the speed of light. However, the radiation and light made from a strike does move at the speed of light, so the whole issue of counting the seconds between lightning and thunder to tell the distance between you and the storm is actually to do with the light radiated from the strike travelling at the speed of light instead of the strike itself being instantaneous.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Stonaem (Apr 14, 2017)

I think there are some misunderstandings here and false premises, hence the unending debates.

Consider:
- There is a difference between VOLUNTARY AND INVOLUNTARY action
- Voluntary is based on conscious decisions made before the body moves. It represents speed ability
- Involuntary is based on natural and/or learned instinct. The body moves on its own due to various influences ( habit, fear, instinct etc)
- Most characters, esp. in adrenaline fuelled conditions, can reach amazing speed as Involuntary actions dominate
- Examples include Kisame dodging raiton enhanced blade from B, Itachi activating Susano'o vs Sasuke, etc
- Voluntary actions are indicated when character makes decision before acting and/or is able to react mentally first.
- So please let's stop taking feats out of context
- One more thing, feats and hype are for calculating ability( which is what wins matches). They both count and cannot be used to singularly decide matches. Of course, context and common sense should not be abandoned when working with them either.

If you disagree I'll happily debate my stance


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## Android (Apr 14, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz no one...Not even rikudo tier characters come anywhere close to lightning speed in movement or reactions feat wise
> 
> Not by a long shot
> 
> The best naruto speed feats...performed by the likes of RSM naruto, 8th gate Gai, rinnegan sasuke, and freaking Kaguya, are calced at massively hypersonic+...*which CAPS at mach 8000...It can be as low as mach 1000*...*Narutos best speedsters in the verse fit somewhere in that line*



Those people you listed would react to Kirin with comical ease .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 14, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz no one...Not even rikudo tier characters come anywhere close to lightning speed in movement or reactions feat wise



lightning speed  =/= light speeed

lightning speed -> 61 km/s  --->(turnin to a stroke) 27800 km/s ---> mid-high hypersonic mach 20+ at tops
light speed -> 299.792.458 m/s !!!

Light speed is waaaay faster than lightning.




WorldsStrongest said:


> .*which CAPS at mach 8000...It can be as low as mach 1000*...*Narutos best speedsters in the verse fit somewhere in that line*



mach 8000>>>>>>mach20

lightning =/= light thats a biiiiiig misconception.

Even genin in narutoverse are supersonic so dealing with a lightning not impressive..

Thats cuz Kid Kakashi able to cut one of them with Chidori
and Thats cuz Heavily Wounded and Sick Itachi easily reacted it..


So yeah its way fast but ı dont think ıts not gonna hit any mid kage level person.

And that wasnt a natural lightning ITachi saw all set up



*EDIT:* I was sleepy and ı typed wrong as Mach 20 it aint mach 20 but its not mach 58.000 ı guess. More like between Mach 75- mach 100.. Not 58000

And that wasnt a natural lightning Itachi watch thru all set up.. Then Sasuke pull Kirin out of the sky then charged and released.. So its no has the same suprise effect though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 14, 2017)




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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 14, 2017)

Kirin might be lightning but its also a Raiton technique, and Raitons don't tend to move at 'lightning' speed, or at least they don't move at the speed we would condition for lightning. That said, its got a massive range and its unpredictable due to the fact that its lightning - even if the initial bolt is evaded there's still the discharge released afterwards. That's likely why Itachi used Susano'o.


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## LostSelf (Apr 14, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Itachi reacting to kirin is a massive outlier in the naruto verse...
> 
> Cuz no one...Not even rikudo tier characters come anywhere close to lightning speed in movement or reactions feat wise
> 
> Not by a long shot



Actually, this.

I rather see it like Itachi knew what was coming (Sasuke gloated about it) and activated it before hand. Sasuke possibly didn't even saw it.

But either way, it should be pretty fast.


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## Android (Apr 14, 2017)

I don't see where the hype is coming from , even Zetsu was able to cover himself before the lightning strikes

Reactions: Winner 2


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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 14, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> I don't see where the hype is coming from


Cuz people think

Lightning Speed = Light Speed... Which is a huge missconception. Due to Gai Kid Kakashi cut a lightning thats why Chidori becomes Raikiri.

So what Itachi did not that impressive.. That lightning betmeen Mach 15 and Mach 30..

Most of the naruto chars has mach300+ speed & reactions. Even Genins are Hypersonic in this verse

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Apr 14, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Cuz people think
> 
> Lightning Speed = Light Speed... Which is a huge missconception. Due to Gai Kid Kakashi cut a lightning thats why Chidori becomes Raikiri.
> 
> ...


Agree  
Senjutsu Inton Lightning blocked .

Senjutsu powered up beam of light .

YaGai , Sekizo ......etc  
These are the real deal if you wanna talk about Jutsu speed .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Platypus (Apr 14, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> *Lightning travels at mach 60,000*


lol

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Santoryu (Apr 14, 2017)

The author's not one for fine details or the consistency of feats. A teenage Kakashi reacted to lightning after all.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blu-ray (Apr 14, 2017)

Veracity said:


> • Who can mentally react to Kirin?


Doubt most would even need to, seeing as a pretty conspicuous lightning dragon forms in the sky and a detailed explanation by its user precedes its actual use.



> • Who can physically react to Kirin?


Now this is the real meat. Actually dodging the thing is where the real problem lies. I doubt anything short of the likes of Ay are pbI doubt anyone short of Ay when it comes to mental reactions and physical speed and even then the sheer size



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kirin might be lightning but its also a Raiton technique, and Raitons don't tend to move at 'lightning' speed, or at least they don't move at the speed we would condition for lightning.


Zetsu's little monologue makes it clear that Kirin is an exception to this rule. He wouldn't be bringing up the speed of actual lightning were it not that fast.


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## LostSelf (Apr 14, 2017)

Genin are not hypersonic. 

Unless the genin moves at 6th gated Gai's striking speed. But we know that's not the thing. And that's the only attack calculated by him to be super sonic.

This is basically Kishimoto not knowing a fuck. But in his own physics, Genin are far below supersonic due to that very thing.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 14, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Genin are not hypersonic.


Deadly wounded Neji blitzed a guy from almost 100 or 100+ meter away who is fallen down from a basic tree . And best part , Kidomaru started to fall down, Neji talked pull that arrow from himself, talked with himself, then starts to run..

And when Neji reach to him he was still has 1.50+m to meeting with the ground !! ..
SO you know the formula . that dude fall 5-6 meter (at tops)

In that 5-6 meter fall what Neji did

get rid off from huge arrow that pierced his chest. talked himself, get determined and run and reach to the guy before completely fall and use Gentle Fist ?!

So ı dont know about hypersonic that feat was definetly supersonic..

And Neji was deadly wounded back there. So guys like Rock Lee, CS2 Sasuke, Kn1 Naruto are probably faster than even Healthy Neji..

So we can accept they has mach8-mach20 feats. (Like how CS1 Sasuke blitz a giant supersonic blast and nobody able to track him.

You can check this out


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## sabre320 (Apr 14, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Itachi reacting to kirin is a massive outlier in the naruto verse...
> 
> Cuz no one...Not even rikudo tier characters come anywhere close to lightning speed in movement or reactions feat wise
> 
> ...



The  speed of lightning coming down is not that fast..
*Lightning travels at around 220,000 miles per hour when traveling downwards from a cloud, and then reaches a speed of 220,000,000 miles per hour when moving skyward on its return stroke*


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 14, 2017)

FRS is calculated above Mach 50 by some. Making it like 38,000+ mph. Reacting to that attack and/or avoiding it is a big accomplishment.

If Kirin were the speed of lightning, it'd be 220,000,000 mph.

The only person, I think, capable of mentally or physically reacting to an attack that fast in the manga is 8G Gai, who reacted to his own reality bending speed to perform an accurate martial arts kick.

If there were others you would not see them, ever, being taken off guard by any attack. Low end feats or not, when your mind and/or body can work at that rate you should never be incapable of handling surprise attacks, yet the author has written the fastest as being vulnerable to just that (Naruto impaled by Shin's Katana Manipulation, Sasuke burned by Momoshiki's katon cage, Judara bisected by Sasuke's Chidori/Directly struck by EE).

What this means is calculations are irrelevant. If Itachi could react to it by manifesting Susano, then most high tiers would be capable of mentally reacting, and the strongest would be capable of physically reacting.

Although those who try to explain the feature logically would claim Itachi reacted to Sasuke's arm dropping, and had MS activated while he did so, he did not react to the lightning itself. Of course this explanation is bogus, as Itachi was shown looking above at the lightning dropping without Susano activated just as the flash began, so he did indeed react to the attack itself, which is a huge hole in the series.


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## Trojan (Apr 14, 2017)

Probably Kakashi-level and higher. Kakashi's Raikiri was called like that because he reacted to lightning and cut it, no?


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## LostSelf (Apr 14, 2017)

@JiraiyaFlash But looks like Kishimoto doesn't consider them to be Super Sonic because it took Gai's Asa Kukaju for him to label an attack as supersonic.

And i'm pretty sure Genin Neji is far away from Gai's striking speed. And if they are, what's Asa Kujaku, considering the huge gap in speed between both?


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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 14, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> But looks like Kishimoto doesn't consider them to be Super Sonic because it took Gai's Asa Kukaju for him to label an attack as supersonic.


Calculated Feats >>Databook labels

Due to databooks, Slash attack of samurais fast as lightning ? Which is mach 20
And due to databooks -> Itachi's Suiton Jutsu fast as lightning which means Kakashi's counter even faster.. same as mach15-25.
These are part 1 feats..

And this values are means -> mid/high hypersonic ?! 

So due to those labels

6G Gai and his best attack <<<<<<<<< Fodder Suiton or Fodder Chakra Sword Slashes ?! 

I dont think so.. So thats why

Manga -> 1st / Main Source
DB -> Suplementary .. If its fit with manga feat then you can use as a back-up.. If its not then you can understand there is some hyperbole around here.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 14, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> Zetsu's little monologue makes it clear that Kirin is an exception to this rule. He wouldn't be bringing up the speed of actual lightning were it not that fast.



Maybe, although Kishimoto loves to use hyperboles when he's describing techniques.


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## Blu-ray (Apr 14, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Maybe, although Kishimoto loves to use hyperboles when he's describing techniques.


He does, but I wouldn't call "lightning that moves at the speed of lightning" hyperbole.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## LostSelf (Apr 14, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Calculated Feats >>Databook labels



I disagree. If Kishimoto says apples are pears in his manga, and supersonic is lightspeed, then it's his manga and should be taken as it in his universe.

Of course, that doesn't make the genin non supersonic in our world and calculations. It might be that Supersonic is something far different in Kishimoto's vague idea of physics.

That, i bet he doesn't put much thought into.

Also, Kishimoto didn't only mention it in Databook. It was stated in the manga as "Supesonic punches that turns the air on fire". Kishimoto made it look like a big deal instead of just showcasing it only.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 14, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> He does, but I wouldn't call "lightning that moves at the speed of lightning" hyperbole.



True 

It's just that Kishimoto hardly follows real world physics and science. So it doesn't make sense to me to use real calculations to decipher the speed of his techniques.

Kishimoto likely wasn't thinking in numbers and stats when he had Zetsu come out with that statement, and "the speed of lightning" is therefore pretty vague within the perimeters of Narutoverse speed limits. In real life, such a speed is incomprehensible to evade, but the Narutoverse is different. Even the weakest of ninja can perform speed feats where they move so fast that it seems like they've physically disappeared (Shunshin).

In my opinion, Kirin is definitely very fast, but it was more the AOE and unpredictability of its composition that made it so hard to evade for someone of Itachi's calibre. We have barely any feats of speed from the technique, but I'd say barely anyone can dodge it because of reasons besides just it's speed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blu-ray (Apr 14, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> True
> 
> It's just that Kishimoto hardly follows real world physics and science. So it doesn't make sense to me to use real calculations to decipher the speed of his techniques.
> 
> ...



This is true in general, but this is one of the few instances I don't think this reasoning really applies. After all, they go out of their way to say and show that it's _actual_ lightning, and distinguished it from normal lightning based jutsu because of this property, so there's no reason to assume its any faster or slower than that.

But yeah I agree it's more than just its speed that makes it unavoidable. Kinda hard to dodge something that covers large hill nigh instantly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 15, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I disagree. If Kishimoto says apples are pears in his manga, and supersonic is lightspeed, then it's his manga and should be taken as it in his universe.


Then Gai is not a fast dude at all

Since Part 1 Kakashi and Fodder Samurais has faster attacks than him.


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## Ayala (Apr 15, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Then Gai is not a fast dude at all
> 
> Since Part 1 Kakashi and Fodder Samurais has faster attacks than him.



Fast as lightning is like a metaphor, a similtude, to say that their attacks were "very fast", not that they were striking at 60 km/s.

Supersonic is more specific, and it only indicates that the barrier of sound was broken. For Kishi, this obviously was something very impressive, something that only the fastest striker in the verse could accomplish. It's similar to Hxh, where only one man has broken the barrier of sound (striking movement only at that) and he's considered a legend.

To you wounded Neji was hypersonic (because he talked, thought and then charged). I just calculated Sasuke moving at above Lee speeds is slow as shit though, because he started his charge, all the people of the stadium had the time to talk, explain, joke and think before he made contact with Gaara from like 30 m, basically it took him a chapter.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 15, 2017)

It wasn't something only the fastest striker in the verse could accomplish because Kishi drew Sasori's Satetsu Shigure breaking the sound barrier. Chiyo reacted to it from like a dozen meters away, too.

Kishi just plain didn't think of a good way to describe Asakujaku at that moment.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Ayala (Apr 15, 2017)

You referring to this page? 



I don't know if that indicates the barrier of sounds being broken. But even if it was, Satetsu is still a very fast attack, much faster than genin in foot, so the genin on foot aren't close to hypersonic.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 15, 2017)

In Part 1, Dosu revealed that the techniques used by him and his teammates moved at sound speed, or around that level. In fact, Zaku's Zankūha is described as the manipulation of _super sonic_ airwaves. Although Sakura was able to at least make a handseal before she was hit by them, and CS1 Sasuke outright evaded Zaku's more powerful variation. Then there's Temari, who swung her fan and created a Kamataichi before Tayuya's sound waves could reach her.

Kishimoto's world doesn't make sense. Even Genin have ridiculous superhuman feats. It makes sense that someone of Itachi or Zetsu's calibre could react to lightning, considering shinobi who are infinitely weaker could so easily react to sound speed or even supersonic attacks.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 15, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> It makes sense that someone of Itachi or Zetsu's calibre could react to lightning, considering shinobi who are infinitely weaker could so easily react to sound speed or even supersonic attacks.


You're forgetting that rate limiting step in this process was Sasuke, he had a monologue explaining his jutsu and then he had to guide the attack towards Itachi. You can't really react to the jutsu once it is unleashed but you can react to what Sasuke is doing which is what Itachi and Zetsu did.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 15, 2017)

It's a bit unclear what happened, in fairness. It could be that the lightning began to fall from the sky, and _then_ Itachi used Susano'o. I mean we saw him activating the technique in the bottom panel of this page right after Sasuke guided it (with the light of the attack shrouding his body), and by the next page, the lightning bolt had already hit the ground.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 15, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> It's a bit unclear what happened, in fairness. It could be that the lightning began to fall from the sky, and _then_ Itachi used Susano'o. I mean we saw him activating the technique in the bottom panel of this page right after Sasuke guided it (with the light of the attack shrouding his body), and by the next page, the lightning bolt had already hit the ground.


Yeah, that page is what made it clear to me he reacted to Sasuke not the lightning itself and by doing that he was automatically ahead of the jutsu, whereas if he had waited to see the jutsu he'd have been dead.


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## The Great One (Apr 15, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> In Part 1, Dosu revealed that the techniques used by him and his teammates moved at sound speed, or around that level. In fact, Zaku's Zankūha is described as the manipulation of _super sonic_ airwaves. Although Sakura was able to at least make a handseal before she was hit by them, and CS1 Sasuke outright evaded Zaku's more powerful variation. Then there's Temari, who swung her fan and created a Kamataichi before Tayuya's sound waves could reach her.
> 
> Kishimoto's world doesn't make sense. Even Genin have ridiculous superhuman feats. It makes sense that someone of Itachi or Zetsu's calibre could react to lightning, considering shinobi who are infinitely weaker could so easily react to sound speed or even supersonic attacks.


There is also Naruto unable to cover 100m in 5 seconds during Pein fight.

And Kakuzu getting surprised that Kakashi was able out run sound of rikari.

And also effects of thrown objects like Kunai and Shuriken.

Kunai and shurikens merely pieces trees and wooden targets.

Watch 50 cal sniper rounds fired on trees those things rips trees apart roughly same sized which narutoverse uses as target practice.

And even Berrets rounds are not hypersonic.

And Berret rounds are roughly same sized as kunais.

And throwing speed >>>>> running speed.

Effects of Kunai and Shuriken thrown by those hypersonic cherecters does not suggest any hypersonic feat at all.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 15, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> You referring to this page?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if that indicates the barrier of sounds being broken. But even if it was, Satetsu is still a very fast attack, much faster than genin in foot, so the genin on foot aren't close to hypersonic.



That's Satetsu Kesshu. I was talking about _here_.

I know it doesn't make the Genin hypersonic. My point was that Asakujaku is probably faster than supersonic.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## LostSelf (Apr 15, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Then Gai is not a fast dude at all
> 
> Since Part 1 Kakashi and Fodder Samurais has faster attacks than him.



I never tend to say this but....

Bruh, the drugs are bad for your health.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 15, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I never tend to say this but....
> 
> Bruh, the drugs are bad for your health.


I was try to be sarcastic genius..  If Gai has supersonic punches in 6th Gate but P1 Kakashi Hypersonic suiton jutsu 
due to the same databook then due to this databook (that you're strictly count on) Gai is not even that fast..

This aint my claim.. I just try to show you inconsistency here.  

And you should try some drugs to get you shit together dear LostSelf


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## LostSelf (Apr 15, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> I was try to be sarcastic genius..  If Gai has supersonic punches in 6th Gate but P1 Kakashi Hypersonic suiton jutsu
> due to the same databook then due to this databook (that you're strictly count on) Gai is not even that fast..
> 
> This aint my claim.. I just try to show you inconsistency here.
> ...



I don't see it that way.

If Kishimoto considered Asa Kujaku = Superonic and Genins are far below Asa Kujaku in speed, then no matter how much Nasa workers we get in here. Kishimoto doesn't think of them as Supersonic and didn't say "Let me make this genin supersonic speed like with this feat."

Either Kishimoto considers Asa Kujaku faster than Supersonic or he doesn't consider the Genins supersonic.

And no amount of calculations will go above his words in his own manga.

And hell no, Gai doesn't use drugs because they are bad. I won't use them either. I follow the almighty Gaikage's teachings.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 15, 2017)

Regular Genin & Chunnin -> Sub Sonic
Special Ones -> Supersonic
Prodigies -> Low-Hypersonic
Jonins -> Hypersonic
S class -> Massive Hypersonic
Kage level speedters -> Relative Speeds.

This is the speed formula of Narutoverse you can check vsbattles.wikia calcs, comicvine calcs, killer movies, reddit for similar calculations and even you can make one of 'em with basic physical methods.

I dont get it same people try to defend how fast Base Gai and how he can kick Taka Sasuke's ass or how good he was against Obito (Obito is a massive - hypersonic dude when even he doesnt give .... you get it) 

But again now people come with;

"If 6G Ga's punches stated as supersonic on DB we should scale all speed levels around this !!" 

DB says -> Gamabunta 17meter
Manga says -> Sitting bunta at part 1 42 meter.

So DB is cool sometime you can use as supportive thing but DB is not the main column of the canon implications of the feats

Not at all.


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## LostSelf (Apr 15, 2017)

I can't stop the feel that you didn't read anything of what i said or missed the point completely.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 15, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I can't stop the feel that you didn't read anything of what i said or missed the point completely.


My last post wasnt for you man.. Why you're offended ı dont know..

I see you but your point is unlogical.

Zaku says in manga -> My Blast is Supersonic
DB Says for Gai -> Asakujaku Fists are Supersonic

Genin Zaku = 6G Gai in terms of striking speed due to your logic cuz both things comes from Kishi (most of the DB writen by editors though ) 
SO due to Kishi... Gai fast as a genin.. And Fodder Samurais has faster attacks.. 

And none any of this claims aint come from me.. Its what do you gonna get ıf you put feats this way. 

And thats was my last post about this non-sense.


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## Tom Servo (Apr 15, 2017)

BZ said that it can hit the ground at 1/1,000th of a second if we take that at face value than Sub-Relitivistic (4% c [Mach 35,264])

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 17, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, that page is what made it clear to me he reacted to Sasuke not the lightning itself and by doing that he was automatically ahead of the jutsu, whereas if he had waited to see the jutsu he'd have been dead.



Or maybe he just reacted to it since the page didn't make it clear.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 17, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Or maybe he just reacted to it since the page didn't make it clear.


I find that more unlikely due to Sasuke/Zetsu's hyping of the technique just prior to it, especially given his sickness/condition.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 17, 2017)

I think Sasuke would have seen Itachi use Susano'o, though. I mean Sasuke was looking right at him when he guided Kirin down upon him, but he was still shocked when he saw Itachi shrouded in chakra afterwards.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 17, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I think Sasuke would have seen Itachi use Susano'o, though. I mean Sasuke was looking right at him when he guided Kirin down upon him, but he was still shocked when he saw Itachi shrouded in chakra afterwards.


This is the same as how Sasuke survived C0, I see it no differently.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 17, 2017)

The difference is that Deidara blew himself up with C0, so he couldn't see shit. Sasuke was looking at Itachi as he used the technique.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Dr. White (Apr 17, 2017)

2017 and we still arguing if Itachi mentally reacted to the lightning..We would have saw a huge sillouhette and as GT mentioned Sasuke was like "WTF is that?!" when Itachi brought up Susanoo.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 17, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The difference is that Deidara blew himself up with C0, so he couldn't see shit. Sasuke was looking at Itachi as he used the technique.


Itachi was looking back at him but my point in bringing that example was that it's one of Kishi's inconsistencies. He did give him an out with Yata but I'd say he reacted to Sasuke more than anything else.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 18, 2017)

I don't understand your reasoning though. It seems like you believe that simply because you can't fathom Itachi reacting to lightning


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