# Mihawk & Garp vs Shanks & Beckmann



## Finalbeta (Jul 12, 2015)

Location: Marijoa
Distance: 100m


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## Freechoice (Jul 12, 2015)

Garp >>>>> Beckman

Shanks > Mihawk


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 12, 2015)

Too many badasses in this fight. Mariejois might just crumble from their presence.


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## Bernkastel (Jul 12, 2015)

Beckman is the weak link here though they should have great synergy together unlike Mihawk,Garp.

Beckman also has no feats other than intimidating Kizaru so we have no idea where he stands.I for one believe he's weaker than Marco and Marco would give at most very high diff to Garp depending on versions.

Shanks >= Mihawk and i'm pretty sure they would go 1v1 here due to honor/rivalry etc so that leaves Beckman with Garp and the former gets fisted.

Overall very high to extreme diff.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 12, 2015)

Mohawk > Spanks
Lord Garp >>>>>>> Mr. Beckmann


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 12, 2015)

Ben is the weak link, Garp and Mihawk win.


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## MrWano (Jul 12, 2015)

The red har pirates should have the better teamwork, but Ben is also the weak link by quite a bit. So he'd get his dick punched off by Garp. Doesn't matter if Mihawk or Shanks wins. Garp can clean up Shanks if he edges out Mihawk.


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## ShadoLord (Jul 12, 2015)

Shanks cancels out with Mihawk.

Garp high-diffs Beckman.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jul 12, 2015)

Mihawk beats Shanks

Garp stomps Beckman


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## barreltheif (Jul 12, 2015)

Mihawk extreme diffs Shanks.
Garp mid-high diffs Beckman.


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## Beckman (Jul 12, 2015)

Beckman solo's


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## tanman (Jul 12, 2015)

Shanks > Garp ~ Mihawk > Beckman

I see Shanks extreme diffing Garp and Mihawk extreme diffing Beckman. 
And then Shanks barely edging out Mihawk or the fight ending in a double K.O. That's assuming Beckman is Shanks' second strongest and lives up to that Kizaru hype.


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## barreltheif (Jul 12, 2015)

tanman said:


> Shanks > Garp ~ Mihawk > Beckman
> 
> I see Shanks extreme diffing Garp and Mihawk extreme diffing Beckman.
> And then Shanks barely edging out Mihawk or the fight ending in a double K.O. That's assuming Beckman is Shanks' second strongest and lives up to that Kizaru hype.




Beckman is not giving Mihawk extreme diff. That is some terrible, terrible downplay. Mihawk would most likely mid diff him.


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## tanman (Jul 12, 2015)

I'm expecting Beckman to be as strong as or stronger than Marco. 
So no one's mid diffing him (unless they're above Old WB).

Considering I would peg Marco v Mihawk as very high diff or extreme diff, I think my opinion makes logical sense. Who am I downplaying? And who am I overestimating?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 12, 2015)

Beckman pushes either Mihawk or Marineford Garp to high-diff, I'd say.
It depends on where people think Shanks stands in relation to the others.


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## Six (Jul 12, 2015)

lol said:


> *Garp >>>>> Beckman*
> 
> Shanks > Mihawk


You're a full blown retard. Gary is not that much stronger than an admiral/emperor level person.
I would have given it to Prime Garp but
Benn Beckam>Garp and Shanks> Mihawk

Shanks and his first mate win


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## Extravlad (Jul 12, 2015)

> Benn Beckam>Garp


Lol the Shanks crew wanking is insane.

Mihawk > Shanks > Garp > Beckman.

Mihawk extreme diffs Shanks and Garp high high diff Beckman


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## barreltheif (Jul 12, 2015)

tanman said:


> I'm expecting Beckman to be as strong as or stronger than Marco.
> So no one's mid diffing him (unless they're above Old WB).
> 
> Considering I would peg Marco v Mihawk as very high diff or extreme diff, I think my opinion makes logical sense. Who am I downplaying? And who am I overestimating?




All we know about Beckman is that he's a yonkou first mate. First mates normally give mid-high diff to their captains. If Beckman vs Mihawk will be an extreme diff fight, then either Mihawk is a tier below Shanks, or Beckman is the "Zoro" of his crew and is roughly equal to Shanks. The former has 0% chance of being true since Shanks isn't the WSS, and the latter is completely baseless and very unlikely.


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## tanman (Jul 12, 2015)

Few points:
That's not all we know. In fact, we don't even know that. Beckman has never been confirmed to be the second strongest in Shanks' crew. So let's start there from a point of total ignorance. In my opinion, Beckman's portrayal has been that of someone who could successfully threaten Kizaru into inaction, which would, for me, put Beckman on par with Kizaru. That feat/hype moment is actually all we have. And based on that alone I feel comfortable saying Mihawk would have extreme difficulty since I think it's debatable whether Mihawk could overcome Kizaru. It's a single feat though, so of course it's quite possible that things'll go another way for Beckman. But it certainly not baseless. It's literally the only basis we have.

Also, the "tier" statement is kind of ridiculous since Whitebeard and Marco aren't on different "tiers" and that's literally the epitome of a huge captain/FM power gap. I would say Doflamingo might be the only person with a bigger gap between him and his defacto FM, Vergo (but that's mostly because of haxx). 

As Luffy's benchmark, and therefore a benchmark for the entire Strawhat crew in a way, it's not difficult to believe the crew has a similar power structure (although with advent of G4, the gap between Luffy and Zoro is getting to be rather sizeable). Of course, I would give Shanks very high difficulty when fighting Beckman, which lines up with giving Mihawk extreme difficulty. I'm not being hypocritical here.


The WSS-based Mihawk v Shanks debate is a subject that I'd rather not get into, since it's been covered so extensively that there's nothing new you could bring to the table in favor of Mihawk and nothing new I could bring to the table in favor of Shanks, but you know where I stand (fundamentally disagreeing with the idea that Mihawk's title precludes Shanks' superiority).


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## ShadoLord (Jul 12, 2015)

Beckman was confirmed as the Vice Captain of the Redhair Pirates by Luffy before....

It's quite obvious that Beckman is the second strongest as he's the second in command of the pirate crew.


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## tanman (Jul 12, 2015)

Oh okay, doesn't really take away from argument. If I'm wrong on that one, then I'm wrong.

Do you have a chapter for when Luffy confirmed that?


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## Captain Altintop (Jul 12, 2015)

I see Beckman closer to Shanks than i.e. Marco to WB.
Beckman is called to be the most intelligent person in OPverse. He should be weaker than all 3.
The same goes for Luffy and his right hand vice Zoro.
100 WB (old)
96 Shanks
95 Mihawk
94 Garp (old)
91 Beckmann, Marco

I see Shanks beating Mihawk extreme diff. and
Garp beating Beckmann high ( mid-high ) diff.

Garp helps Mihawk to beat Shanks of course.


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## trance (Jul 12, 2015)

Shanks ~ Mihawk
Garp > Benn

Garp and Mihawk win with very high difficulty.


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## Gohara (Jul 12, 2015)

Shanks and Beckman win with around high difficulty at most.  A fight between Beckman and Mihawk can go either way.  Shanks defeats Old Garp with around mid difficulty at most, IMO.


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## barreltheif (Jul 12, 2015)

tanman said:


> Few points:
> That's not all we know. In fact, we don't even know that. Beckman has never been confirmed to be the second strongest in Shanks' crew. So let's start there from a point of total ignorance. In my opinion, Beckman's portrayal has been that of someone who could successfully threaten Kizaru into inaction, which would, for me, put Beckman on par with Kizaru. That feat/hype moment is actually all we have. And based on that alone I feel comfortable saying Mihawk would have extreme difficulty since I think it's debatable whether Mihawk could overcome Kizaru. It's a single feat though, so of course it's quite possible that things'll go another way for Beckman. But it certainly not baseless. It's literally the only basis we have.



Beckman points his gun at Kizaru and tells him not to attack Luffy. Kizaru says "Oh dearie me", putting his hands in the air. He then attacks Luffy. Beckman does nothing. He doesn't shoot Beckman or anything.
I have absolutely no clue how you could conclude from this that Beckman is equal to Kizaru.

Also, it was stated in the SBS that Beckman is Shanks' first mate.




> Also, the "tier" statement is kind of ridiculous since Whitebeard and Marco aren't on different "tiers" and that's literally the epitome of a huge captain/FM power gap. I would say Doflamingo might be the only person with a bigger gap between him and his defacto FM, Vergo (but that's mostly because of haxx).



I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. WB is a tier or two above Marco. WB-Marco is a pretty big gap, but it's certainly not unusually large. Doffy-Vergo/Pica is way bigger. The gap between most of the SNs and their first mates is bigger. Hancock is way further from her sisters. Enel was further from his priests. Dragon was probably further from base Sabo. Lucci was arguably further from Kaku.
In short, it's rare for a #2 to be able to give his captain high diff, and extreme diff is extremely rare.


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## Freechoice (Jul 12, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> You're a full blown retard. *Gary *s not that much stronger than an admiral/emperor level person.
> I would have given it to Prime Garp but
> Benn Beckam>Garp and Shanks> Mihawk
> 
> Shanks and his first mate win



Garp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Beckman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feces >>>>>>>>> You


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## Samehadaman (Jul 12, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Beckman also has no feats other than intimidating Kizaru





tanman said:


> Beckman's portrayal has been that of someone who could successfully threaten Kizaru into inaction, which would, for me, put Beckman on par with Kizaru. That feat/hype moment is actually all we have. And based on that alone I feel comfortable saying Mihawk would have extreme difficulty since I think it's debatable whether Mihawk could overcome Kizaru. It's a single feat though, so of course it's quite possible that things'll go another way for Beckman. But it certainly not baseless. It's literally the only basis we have.




That's probably the moment in the entire manga that gets more brutalized by selective reading. For some reason everyone forgets Borsalino did exactly what Beckman told him not to do, and Beckman did fuck all to stop or punish him. Not to mention even though everyone knows Borsalino is a sarcastic troll in interacting, in that particular scene pretend to ignore what that interaction means and take it as a surrender, depite the fact that, like I said, Borsalino immediatly does exactly what he was told not to do.

This has nothing to do with how strong Beckman is or who he can beat, just pointing it out because I honestly think 80% of people here chose to pretend something else entirely happened in the manga and ignore a few panels.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jul 12, 2015)

@Beckman beating Mihawk 

his captain cant even do it

some of you are irredeemable idiots


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 12, 2015)

tanman said:


> Oh okay, doesn't really take away from argument. If I'm wrong on that one, then I'm wrong.
> 
> Do you have a chapter for when Luffy confirmed that?


It was in the very first chapter.


Law Trafalgar said:


> I would have given it to Prime Garp but
> Benn Beckam>Garp


Even in old age, Garp has better feats and better hype than Ben, so how about no.


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## giantbiceps (Jul 12, 2015)

Shanks > Garp
Ben ~ Mihawk

Shanks beats Garp then help Ben stomp Mihawk


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## Amol (Jul 12, 2015)

Shanks beats Mihawk with High diff maybe with very High diff.
Garp has * proven* himself to be stronger than Yonkou FM even in his old age. Infact as far as I am concerned bar WB, Garp was strongest person on MF.
So he beats Ben Beckman with High diff.
It all depends on Ben Beckman's fighting style. Because Shanks/Mihawk fight would be a lethal one . So there are chances of Shanks injuries being more hindrance to him than Garp's injuries to him .
I will give it to Garp/Mihawk more times .


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## MrPopo (Jul 13, 2015)

people thinking Ben is Stronger than Garp


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## Gohara (Jul 13, 2015)

Samehadaman said:


> That's probably the moment in the entire manga that gets more brutalized by selective reading. For some reason everyone forgets Borsalino did exactly what Beckman told him not to do, and Beckman did fuck all to stop or punish him. Not to mention even though everyone knows Borsalino is a sarcastic troll in interacting, in that particular scene pretend to ignore what that interaction means and take it as a surrender, depite the fact that, like I said, Borsalino immediatly does exactly what he was told not to do.
> 
> This has nothing to do with how strong Beckman is or who he can beat, just pointing it out because I honestly think 80% of people here chose to pretend something else entirely happened in the manga and ignore a few panels.



On the contrary, I would say it's careful reading, because when Kizaru lands back on the ship Beckman is no longer there and not even a few pages later is standing all the way with the other Red Hair Pirates.  It's incredibly likely that Beckman was not in that general location by that point, not only because of the above, but also because it doesn't really make sense that Kizaru would bother waiting to go after Luffy if he were okay with doing it with Beckman around anyways.  Even if he were joking, which is actually unlikely because he's made it clear that he wants to capture Luffy even prior to learning about Dragon and Ace being his father and brother respectively, the joke would have been played out well before he chose to go after Luffy and for no reason at all would have given Luffy a significantly better chance of escaping.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Jul 13, 2015)

> Beckman's portrayal has been that of someone who could successfully threaten Kizaru into inaction





> I would say it's careful reading





Kizaru was trolling Beckman. It's beyond me how one could misinterpret this scene so much.


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## Extravlad (Jul 13, 2015)

Shanks and his crew are only second to Dragon in term of overwanked characters so yea when Kizaru is trolling Beckman they understand that Beckman would kick his ass.


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## Samehadaman (Jul 13, 2015)

Gohara said:


> On the contrary, I would say it's careful reading, because when Kizaru lands back on the ship Beckman is no longer there and not even a few pages later is standing all the way with the other Red Hair Pirates.  It's incredibly likely that Beckman was not in that general location by that point, not only because of the above, but also because it doesn't really make sense that Kizaru would bother waiting to go after Luffy if he were okay with doing it with Beckman around anyways.




You're right, the more careful interpretation is that Borsalino, the guy who stepped on Whitebeard's bisento, waited there petryfied by fear until Beckman had something better to do. Eventually Beckman went to drink his afternoon tea, but luckily, the submarine hadn’t bothered to leave yet.  /sarcasm.

Bloody hell. This is starting to rustle my jimmies because I get the feeling you aren’t even trolling.
Kindly look at this manga page and tell me where do you get that Beckman wasn’t in the general area, and that he was with the rest of his crew:



It must take some really careful reading, as you say, to interpret the way you did. So careful it requires deleting entire panels and writing a fan fiction on the side. 
It's even more cringe worthy when one considers that Rayleigh, first mate of the Pirate King Roger, also stepped up to save the Strawhats in a previous arc and Borsalino continued to attack without fear. Why would Beckman make him shit his pants. 
Also worth noting, Rayleigh actually managed to interfere and block the attack aimed at the Strawhats, while Beckman stood there talking and did fuck all to prevent it. This is supposed to be Beckman hype?


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## Coruscation (Jul 13, 2015)

The Kizaru was just trolling interpretation makes absolutely no sense. Kizaru, a Marine Admiral, who went after Luffy of his own volition and was intending to kill him and Law to make sure they didn't escape, did not cease his action and let Luffy get away because he _wanted to troll Beckman_.

It seems like this always has to be clarified:

*Shanks was there to end the war.*

Attacking a Marine Admiral is not the way to end the war. That's why Shanks came in and only defended against Akainu. That's why Beckman said "Aw damn, still intending to fight, are you?". Shanks and his crew didn't make a single offensive move in Marineford. They only ever made the threat. If they had made the first move against the Marines, drawn the first blood, their call to cease the bloodshed would have fallen on deaf ears. The bloodlust would have resurged. People need to understand this. Beckman shooting Kizaru in the face would have ruined his captain's goal of negotiating peace. He never intended to shoot in the first place. He only made the threat to save Luffy. As for stopping Kizaru like Rayleigh, it's a teeny, tiny bit harder to stop a hailstorm of lasers shot out in a massive area and general direction when the guy knows you're there, than to stop a single kick aimed at a downed man when you're coming out of nowhere.

As tanman said, Beckman threatened Kizaru into inaction. This is a cold-hard fact. You'll notice he didn't say that Beckman threatened Kizaru into inaction permanently. Kizaru didn't stop to troll Beckman. Yes, putting his hands up was a mocking move but the _fact that he stopped_ was not. He stopped because Beckman was a significant enough threat. This is all tanman stated and he was entirely correct. The absolutely insane viewpoint is the one that genuinely believes Oda wrote that Beckman crowning moment of badass, stopping a Marine Admiral alongside his captain, with it having _absolutely no bearing on Beckman's strength_... just 100% pure Kizaru trolling. That, is insanity.


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## Samehadaman (Jul 13, 2015)

I specifically said in my first post this has fuck all to do with how strong Beckman is. I'm saying: Beckman did not threaten or intimidate Borsalino to inaction. He talked a reaction out of him. Then Borsalino turned and fired.

Did nobody else see Borsalino firing his lasers? After Beckman told him not to. While Beckman was there. Holy shit if that's threatening him into inaction. There were a few pages in between with Shanks landing and reactions and then Borsalino went on with his shooting.
The argument is that Beckman talking to Borsalino forced him to inaction for, say, 30 seconds? So did Coby, Borsalino also legit stopped and turned to listen when he screamed to end the war. Cold hard fact.

Beckman wanted to protect Luffy and prevent Borsalino from shooting at the submarine. Borsalino shot at the sub. Nothing happened.
If this is Borsalino being intimidated and "proof" Beckman is on his level or above, I'll be damned.

Also, Borsalino shoots the miniscule key instead of Luffy or Ace's head, and kicks Luffy when he could kill him, but on this case he's this ultra serious exterminator who would never stop to talk during the job?


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## Coruscation (Jul 13, 2015)

You're wrong. It has a whole lot to do with how strong Beckman is. If you think Oda wrote that scene with absolutely no intention of it having anything to do with how strong Beckman is, you're too high to be posting on a message board. I think it should be perfectly clear to absolutely everyone that Beckman doing what he did and being portrayed like he was had a heck of a lot to do with strength.

Did you not see Kizaru stop? Because Beckman pointed a gun at him? Yes. That happened. Beckman's threat caused Kizaru to abort his action. He didn't abort it to troll like Kizaru fanboys try to argue. He aborted it because Beckman had a gun pointed at him and Beckman is strong enough to give weight to that threat. There's nothing in that implying that Beckman holding his gun can stop Kizaru permanently. I'd say that if Beckman can stop Kizaru permanently just by holding a gun in his direction it would make Beckman a good deal stronger than Kizaru, not on his level. It's just stating the completely unarguable fact that Beckman made a threat and it caused Kizaru to not follow through on his intended action: that is Beckman threatened Borsalino to inaction.

Beckman did stop Kizaru from shooting at the sub. Kizaru then called his bluff and shot anyway, and since it was indeed a bluff, Beckman just sighed. As Gohara accurately pointed out, it makes no sense for Kizaru to stop and wait and then suddenly go ahead and do the exact same thing anyway for absolutely no reason. If he wanted to truly troll and mock Beckman's inability to stop him then guess what he would have done? He would have never even stopped in the first place. He would have just completely ignored him and attacked anyway. Him stopping at all is because Beckman's threat made him wary enough to not keep attacking. That he then went ahead and attacked is irrelevant. Momentarily stopping someone with a threat is not the same as permanently stopping them and no one has made that claim. But it speaks massively to Beckman's strength and portrayal at any rate to be depicted in this manner, especially when you consider that it's a blatant mirror to his captain Shanks stopping Akainu. Lightly writing him off as strictly and substantially inferior to Kizaru isn't as simple as people like to make it. Doing so is doing an incredible disservice to the "Zoro" and "Rayleigh" of Roger's own protege, moreover the main character's idol and benchmark.


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## Orca (Jul 13, 2015)

The writing of that scene was a bit shaky. But yeah, I've never understood this "kizaru was trolling beckman" thing.

He wasn't. Kizaru ceased his actions when Beckman confronted him. Then when Kizaru actually attacks, we can see Beckman looking up. Meaning he was no longer up there with kizaru and didn't deem it necessary to stop him anymore. Kizaru looked for an opportunity as soon as Beckman left to attack Luffy.

Kizaru trolling Beckman wouldn't be some epic moment where we're suppose to worship kizaru's trolling skills but it'll actually be shitty writing on Oda's part for him to write both Beckman and Kizaru in such a way. Thankfully he wasn't.


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## Samehadaman (Jul 13, 2015)

@Corus
The fact that Beckman threatened an Admiral as an equal has to do with his strength. The fact Borsalino stopped his attack to talk to him does not quite as much as some want. 
Borsalino turned to listen to Beckman, a Yonko first mate who suddenly showed up on a ship's mast, talked to him in consistency with his personality and the way this manga works, and continued to fire at Luffy.

I don't think the reason he stopped and talked was because he was afraid of being hurt by Beckman. He attacked Strawhats under protection of Rayleigh. He attacked Marco. He attacked Whitebeard. He won't be scared into inaction by another guy.
Someone like him doesn't stop for fear of being hurt. Beckman wouldn't have stopped either, if that matters.

I don't buy at all that Borsalino fired at Luffy anyways because he figured Beckman wouldn't fire at him and it was a bluff, because it's ludicrous to think an Admiral would just quit fighting during the attack on Marineford because someone threatened him (had Beckman not have these orders not to shoot).

Gohara argues that Borsalino waited for Beckman to leave and only then took his shot, while Beckman wasn't in the general area.
I don't believe for a second you agree with that. Maybe you're ignoring it or want to pretend everyone is saying the same, but it's obvious bullshit to be read on a single manga page.

*More importantly, when I say Borsalino trolled Beckman, I mean the sarcastic response, fake fear, and hands in the air. I obviously never meant in fighting, since they never fought.*


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## Coruscation (Jul 13, 2015)

Samehadaman said:


> The fact that Beckman threatened an Admiral as an equal has to do with his strength. The fact Borsalino stopped his attack to talk to him does not.
> Borsalino turned to listen to Beckman, a Yonko first mate who suddenly showed up on a ship's mast, talked to him in consistency with his personality and the way this manga works, and continued to fire at Luffy.
> 
> I don't think the reason he stopped and talked was because he was afraid of being hurt by Beckman. He attacked Strawhats under protection of Rayleigh. He attacked Marco. He attacked Whitebeard. He won't be scared into inaction by another guy.
> ...



He didn't stop to _listen_. He got a gun pointed at his head by a Yonkou First Mate in a Crowning Moment of Badass. He didn't stop to have a bloody chat. He stopped because of the Yonkou First Mate's power. You can't possibly believe for a single second your own attempt at construing the scene like this.

You're confusing fear with wariness. With acting rationally. He wasn't "afraid" of Beckman. But he knew Beckman could hurt him and understood that if he kept up that attack he risked getting a very damaging stream of Haki bullets straight to the face. As such he acted accordingly by halting his attack. This is no different from how anyone responds to threats. Even a Yonkou, even Whitebeard, will not just sit there and take dangerous attacks if they can help it. You don't have to be afraid of a threat to acknowledge its weight.

He didn't quit fighting. He aborted the action he was about to take at that moment due to the change in variables introduced by Beckman's threat. That there is a difference is what I'm trying to tell you. You act as if we're saying Beckman had Kizaru totally under his mercy and had him bowing down meekly. This isn't even close to what anyone has said. We're stating the extremely simple fact that Beckman made a threat and it forced Kizaru into inaction. The inaction was momentary. No one said it was permanent, and if you made that interpretation that'll have to be on you because I think it's pretty obvious tanman didn't mean Beckman can keep Kizaru where he wants for as long as he wants just by holding out his gun. But it was inaction forced by the threat of violence backed up by Beckman's strength. Which says a great deal about Beckman's strength. Whether it says equality is another story. I don't personally believe they are dead equal, but I believe it says a lot more than Kizaru fans give it credit for, especially when, as I said, you account for it being an obvious mirror to Shanks stopping the other Admiral, Akainu. There's a strong Luffy/Zoro vibe going on there. It should be given a lot of credit, especially given that we lack anything to truly substantiate Kizaru being stronger either.

We don't know where Beckman was. On the one hand, you could argue the light in his face means he was still close. But he could have been on his way down to join up with the rest of his crew and looked up once he noticed Kizaru was attacking. On the other hand, I believe Gohara argued that since we can directly see Beckman is no longer where he was when he interrupted Kizaru, that indicates he had moved. Are you going to call that completely unreasonable? I'd say it's very reasonable that Beckman may indeed have moved to some extent by the time Kizaru made his move. Though I would argue it doesn't make sense that he was already with his crew, because I don't think the light would have illuminated his face like that if he was so far away. Could be wrong, though. The most likely option seems to be that he was either a bit on his way down or he had only just left. At any rate, Beckman didn't think Kizaru would attack again as indicated by his surprise at the Admiral doing so. He thought he accomplished his job. But I'm not going to make hard assertions either way, because there are no hard facts with which to make them. I'm sure you won't either.


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## Extravlad (Jul 13, 2015)

I don't get this debate over Beckman, he still loses to both Mihawk and Garp 1 on 1 and he can't give more than high difficulty to either of them.

Mihawk and Garp wins.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 14, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> We don't know where Beckman was. On the one hand, you could argue the light in his face means he was still close. But he could have been on his way down to join up with the rest of his crew and looked up once he noticed Kizaru was attacking. On the other hand, I believe Gohara argued that since we can directly see Beckman is no longer where he was when he interrupted Kizaru, that indicates he had moved. Are you going to call that completely unreasonable? I'd say it's very reasonable that Beckman may indeed have moved to some extent by the time Kizaru made his move. Though I would argue it doesn't make sense that he was already with his crew, because I don't think the light would have illuminated his face like that if he was so far away. Could be wrong, though. The most likely option seems to be that he was either a bit on his way down or he had only just left. At any rate, Beckman didn't think Kizaru would attack again as indicated by his surprise at the Admiral doing so. He thought he accomplished his job.


Ok, so Ben was trying to stop Kizaru from attacking the sub, yet he thought that Kizaru wouldn't have continued his assault anyway if he left the Admiral alone with them? That makes no sense.


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## Typhon (Jul 14, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> It should be given a lot of credit, especially given that we lack anything to truly *substantiate Kizaru being stronger either*.



Besides the

>Better feats
>Portrayal on par with the other C3 members who'd have no problem taking on his captain.
>Taking on Whitebeard, Marco, and Rayleigh 
>Calling his bluff and him being able to do nothing about it.

I think that is the important part in this discussion that people are evading. It is not that Beckman was able to halt Kizaru briefly. It is that once Kizaru went ahead with his assault that Beckman couldn't do anything about it.


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## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2015)

We don't even know how strong Garp and Benn are. 

Shanks team wins because Shanks is a bishounen.


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## Orca (Jul 14, 2015)

Typhon said:


> Besides the
> 
> >Better feats
> >Portrayal on par with the other C3 members who'd have no problem taking on his captain.
> ...



This is just flat out stupid. So Beckman was just sitting there and eating donuts while Kizaru was doing his thing? 

So Beckman who is Shanks' strongest fighter and probably around Marco level couldn't do anything about it and was just sitting there?

I mean shit, it'd make sense if you had atleast said that Beckman didn't seem it necessary to attack anymore or if he didn't want to escalate things but no, let's pretend that Beckman is a toddler who can do jackshit to Kizaru


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## Coruscation (Jul 14, 2015)

Jigen said:


> Ok, so Ben was trying to stop Kizaru from attacking the sub, yet he thought that Kizaru wouldn't have continued his assault anyway if he left the Admiral alone with them? That makes no sense.



Makes perfect sense he thought he had accomplished his task. Kizaru waited until the last possible moment to attack if you'll notice.



Typhon said:


> Besides the
> 
> >Better feats
> >Portrayal on par with the other C3 members who'd have no problem taking on his captain.
> ...



Better feats than someone who's done nothing doesn't matter.

Doesn't mean that much seeing how Beckman is like Ray to Roger or Zoro to Luffy. An FM who is like a partner comparable to his captain in power. Kizaru has no portrayal on par with Shanks. You just scale him indirectly through other characters, but in terms of direct comparisons Kizaru has been more compared to Marco and Beckman than to Yonkou.

Repeating point 1.

The reason he couldn't do anything is that he didn't want to attack Kizaru directly and Kizaru jumped a huge distance into the air and fired lasers in a different direction. I don't think there is anyone save maybe Marco who could stop Kizaru in that situation while being precluded from attacking him to stop him. Rayleigh had to attack him. WB had to attack him. Beckman couldn't because he would have ruined his captain's attempt to make peace.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 14, 2015)

Jigen said:


> Ok, so Ben was trying to stop Kizaru from attacking the sub, yet he thought that Kizaru wouldn't have continued his assault anyway if he left the Admiral alone with them? That makes no sense.



If anything, it only points at Kizaru's careless personality. Top tiers aren't scared of each other.
What we do know, however, is that Beckman stopped Kizaru dead in his tracks when he had aimed the gun at him... That also indicates Beckman left the location when Kizaru began a subsequent assault, considering the latter didn't continue when they were focused on each other.

Shanks' goal was ending the war. What's the point of their cease fire if they're going to start another war?
Shanks clearly gave orders to his crew, who report to their captain and go along with his plan.
Later on, Shanks told everyone that his crew would be happy to take on anyone who still wants to fight; he just threw the notion out there. They were prepared to fight at Marineford, though it wasn't their intention from the start. 

Assuming Beckman were to attack Kizaru, Shanks' entire plan of cease fire would have been in vain.

Don't know how that can get any simpler.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 14, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Makes perfect sense he thought he had accomplished his task.


So you seriously believe that Ben thought, "welp, I told Kizaru not to shoot, mission accomplished, I can leave him alone now?" Then he is the dumbest First Mate who ever lived.


Coruscation said:


> Better feats than someone who's done nothing doesn't matter.


Ben doesn't have the feats or the hype to put him above Kizaru. His one and only feat is failing to stop Kizaru from spamming the sub after Ben told him not to. For now, Ben is at best on the same general level as Marco, or a little bit above him.


Coruscation said:


> The reason he couldn't do anything is that he didn't want to attack Kizaru directly


Ben wanted to stop Kizaru from killing Luffy. How else do you think he would have stopped Kizaru from doing that?


King Itachi said:


> If anything, it only points at Kizaru's careless personality. Top tiers aren't scared of each other.
> What we do know, however, is that Beckman stopped Kizaru dead in his tracks when he had aimed the gun at him... That also indicates Beckman left the location when Kizaru began a subsequent assault, considering the latter didn't continue when they were focused on each other.


How do you know Kizaru simply didn't land on a different ship? 


Coruscation said:


> I don't think there is anyone save maybe Marco who could stop Kizaru in that situation while being precluded from attacking him to stop him. Rayleigh had to attack him. WB had to attack him. Beckman couldn't because he would have ruined his captain's attempt to make peace.





King Itachi said:


> Shanks' goal was ending the war. What's the point of their cease fire if they're going to start another war?
> Shanks clearly gave orders to his crew, who report to their captain and go along with his plan.
> Later on, Shanks told everyone that his crew would be happy to take on anyone who still wants to fight; he just threw the notion out there. They were prepared to fight at Marineford, though it wasn't their intention from the start.
> 
> ...


How do you think Shanks was going to stop the war? By inviting everyone to a tea party? They were ready to fight anyone who was willing to continue the war. And I doubt Sengoku would have lost his cool and demanded their heads if Ben had attacked Kizaru to prevent him from firing at the sub, it's not like Kizaru would have died from one bullet or melee attack from Ben.


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## Coruscation (Jul 14, 2015)

Jigen said:


> So you seriously believe that Ben thought, "welp, I told Kizaru not to shoot, mission accomplished, I can leave him alone now?" Then he is the dumbest First Mate who ever lived.
> 
> Ben doesn't have the feats or the hype to put him above Kizaru. His one and only feat is failing to stop Kizaru from spamming the sub after Ben told him not to. For now, Ben is at best on the same general level as Marco, or a little bit above him.
> 
> Ben wanted to stop Kizaru from killing Luffy. How else do you think he would have stopped Kizaru from doing that?



No, I'm saying the ship had nearly gotten away and Kizaru hadn't made any move yet, so it made sense for Beckman to believe he had accomplished his task. *You can tell by Beckman's own words* that he wasn't expecting Kizaru to attack again. What you make of his reasoning is up to you. Feel free to believe Shanks' first mate, the smartest man in East Blue is a complete idiot. You could also choose a more reasonable option, but hey. Downplay is fun, right?

I agree nothing puts him above Kizaru. But he has extremely good portrayal as I've clearly outlined. Casually dismissing him as clearly inferior to Kizaru with no real hard evidence of it is doing him a disservice.

By making a threat. Just like he did. Not rocket science, eh? Once Kizaru realized the threat was empty he attacked anyway, or he simply decided the risk was worth it after assessing the situation. Either way it changes absolutely nothing about the fact that Beckman made Kizaru stop because of the threat of attack him. That. Is. Fact. He never intended to shoot because, as I said, drawing the first blood from a Marine Admiral would have ruined his captain's attempt at ending the war with no further casualties.


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## Typhon (Jul 14, 2015)

Luffee said:


> This is just flat out stupid. So Beckman was just sitting there and eating donuts while Kizaru was doing his thing?
> 
> So Beckman who is Shanks' strongest fighter and probably around Marco level couldn't do anything about it and was just sitting there?
> 
> I mean shit, it'd make sense if you had atleast said that Beckman didn't seem it necessary to attack anymore or if he didn't want to escalate things but no, let's pretend that Beckman is a toddler who can do jackshit to Kizaru


Yeah? Unless you have panel proof that if Beckman wanted to, he could have stopped the assault like Marco did.


Coruscation said:


> Better feats than someone who's done nothing doesn't matter.



Beckman also doesn't have the hype to back up being on the same level as Kizaru. I doubt he's even as powerful as Marco.



> Doesn't mean that much seeing how Beckman is like Ray to Roger or Zoro to Luffy. An FM who is like a partner comparable to his captain in power. Kizaru has no portrayal on par with Shanks. You just scale him indirectly through other characters, but in terms of direct comparisons Kizaru has been more compared to Marco and Beckman than to Yonkou.



What? Rayleigh wasn't even compared to his captain in terms of power. Kizaru is an Admiral. It's been straight out said that the Admirals and Yonkou stand at the top of the world and are the greatest obstacles by a legend himself.

And just because he briefly clashed with those two doesn't mean he's more on par with them then the Captain. Kizaru also briefly took on WB and even injured him.



> The reason he couldn't do anything is that he didn't want to attack Kizaru directly and Kizaru jumped a huge distance into the air and fired lasers in a different direction. I don't think there is anyone save maybe Marco who could stop Kizaru in that situation while being precluded from attacking him to stop him. Rayleigh had to attack him. WB had to attack him. Beckman couldn't because he would have ruined his captain's attempt to make peace.



I don't understand how you can think stopping a war is more important then Luffy's well being, who was one of the main reasons that war was still going on in the first place.


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## Captain Altintop (Jul 14, 2015)

Kizaru was just trolling. As if Ben could tell him what to do ... lol
Kizaru started his move and Ben just looked helpless there.

You guys are discussing about obvious things ... Get over it.


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## Gohara (Jul 14, 2015)

Samehadaman said:


> Kindly look at this manga page and tell me where do you get that Beckman wasn?t in the general area, and that he was with the rest of his crew



Kizaru lands on the ship after he fires off a technique, and he's on the same side Beckman was initially on, except this time Beckman isn't there.  I said not even three pages later Beckman is far away (the Red Hair Pirates are about half way into the land part of Marineford by that point) with the rest of his crew, only making it less likely that Beckman is around Kizaru at the time unless he's able to travel that distance in less than three pages.  Also, what Coruscation says in regards to Kizaru purposely giving Luffy a significantly better chance of escaping if what you're saying here is true (which is also something I pointed out in my previous post).



Samehadaman said:


> Rayleigh, first mate of the Pirate King Roger, also stepped up to save the Strawhats in a previous arc and Borsalino continued to attack without fear. Why would Beckman make him shit his pants.



Kizaru fights Old Rayleigh, not Prime Rayleigh.  Additionally, Old Rayleigh fights on par with Kizaru.  Prime Rayleigh is well above the level of Old Rayleigh.  So Prime Rayleigh being more powerful than Beckman wouldn't really matter, since he's also likely well above Kizaru's level.

I'm not really saying that Kizaru was petrified of Beckman.  However, I do think it says a lot about Beckman's level of power that Kizaru doesn't go after Luffy while Beckman is around him.



Coruscation said:


> Though I would argue it doesn't make sense that he was already with his crew, because I don't think the light would have illuminated his face like that if he was so far away. Could be wrong, though. The most likely option seems to be that he was either a bit on his way down or he had only just left.



Just to make it clear, I'm not necessarily saying Beckman was with his crew by that time.  I'm saying he's with his crew not even three pages later, and like you I think he had at least made some ground by that time.


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