# Living Tribunal Vs YHVH



## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Before you close the thread care to note that people are saying YHVH from SMT is "megaversal" so here he has someone to test his power.


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## Calamity (Feb 13, 2012)

Shitstorm incoming.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

MohsinMan99 said:


> Shitstorm incoming.


You mean it's Tuesday?


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Don't see why this is a shitstorm since if this character is really "megaversal" then this shouldn't be hard for him.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 13, 2012)

didn't the LT hold two megaverses in the palms of his hands or some shit

anyway, my jelly sensors are going on alert for some reason and I can't explain why


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Don't think LT has hold megaverses, still you can say he is the top dog in multiversal tiers, so again if this "megaversal" claims are true, he should be having problems here.

And off course your jelly sensors are going on alert, is what happens when a fiction you like gets called out.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Feb 13, 2012)

Oh look another anti SMT crusade.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

First one of the year.

Thought it'd hit in March.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 13, 2012)

is SMT going to be like the cosmic version of Star Wars, at least in terms of gelatin inducing reactions

I mean I actually don't care that much about this thread, but I do find it kind of entertaining 

might as well get the popcorn ready


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

So anyone going to address the match?

Seriously why is it that everytime someone makes a thread to make you prove something you resort to derailing instead of actually debating?


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

Let me get back to you on that when a protag starts shooting emerald lightning

edit @casshern: nope


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Ok, guess those "megaversal" claims are false then.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

Oh we're not derailing because you're trying to prove something.

We're derailing because we're tired of this.

edit: still nope


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## mali (Feb 13, 2012)

Im pretty sure LT held 2 megaverses.

Anyways, inb4nighomnidebate/shitstorm


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Tired of making baseless claims?

Guess you expect people to take your word for everything you said and don't like it when you are called out to prove it.

So derailing is the tactic you use to avoid debating and provide proof.



Mali said:


> Im pretty sure LT held 2 megaverses.
> 
> Anyways, inb4nighomnidebate/shitstorm



Not sure on that, I think it was 2 multiverses.


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## Emperor Joker (Feb 13, 2012)

Casshern said:


> Ok, guess those "megaversal" claims are false then.



I think it's more because your pitting someone who could be Megaversal (YHVH...Haven't played the SMT games) against somebody whose Megaversal +. from the info I can gather YHVH doesn't have the chops to put LT down at all

there's no point in debating something when one of the characters is in a completely seperate tier apparently


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Ok, let's stop it guys!

Otherwise I have to lock this thread until someone who's willing to debate for the SMT's side appears.

No more off-topic posts are allowed in this thread.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

or you can use the search function and prove it wrong from there.

I must have validated at least 4 different SMT characters beneath YHWH

Hitoshura

Lucifer

Tatsuya

Memaleph


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> I think it's more because your pitting someone who could be Megaversal (YHVH...Haven't played the SMT games) against somebody whose Megaversal +. from the info I can gather YHVH doesn't have the chops to put LT down at all
> 
> there's no point in debating something when one of the characters is in a completely sperate tier



Are you sure about the megaversal part? I think LT best feat was holding two multiverses not mega.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> or you can use the search function and prove it wrong from there.
> 
> I must have validated at least 4 different SMT characters beneath YHWH
> 
> ...



They are multiversal without a doubt, now is the megaversal claim that I am asking you to prove.

The difference between Mega and Multi is pretty big.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Aleph is only multiversal with 9 universes under her control.

And aren't Hitoshura and Lucifer technically the same being?
Not to mention that Lucifer is supposedly almost on par with YHVH.

On the other hand, linking previous SMT-related debates might help to solve this thread.


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## Emperor Joker (Feb 13, 2012)

Casshern said:


> Are you sure about the megaversal part? I think LT best feat was holding two multiverses not mega.



No it was two Megaverses I believe


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

And to prove the megaverse claims

YHWH has dominion over every confirmed SMT multi/universe so far.

SMT1-2 (universe)
Nocturne(multiverse)
DDS(multiverse)
Devil Survivor(universe
Strange Journey(Multiverse, this one is iffy as YHWH might or might not be split apart by this time.)
Persona( This one is iffy as it started as a timeline split of smt1 and is now kinda it's one dual universes)


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Aleph is only multiversal with 9 universes under her control.



True.



> And aren't Hitoshura and Lucifer technically the same being?



Not really, Lucifer is stronger than Hito.



> Not to mention that Lucifer is supposedly almost on par with YHWH.



Indeed.

This isn't about proving multiversal power, this is about the megaverse one.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Aleph is only multiversal with 9 universes under her control.
> 
> And aren't Hitoshura and Lucifer technically the same being?
> Not to mention that Lucifer is supposedly almost on par with YHVH.
> ...



No Hitoshura is Lucifer's successor/partner


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> And to prove the megaverse claims
> 
> YHWH has dominion over every confirmed SMT multi/universe so far.
> 
> ...



You do know that this doesn't prove megaverse power, but multiversal+ right?


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

Man how the fuck do you even quantify that shit?

I always considered it as

universal - power over a universe
multiversal - simultaneous power over more than one universe
megaverse - simultaneous power over more than one multiverse


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

If we use that then any character with power over infinite universes would be megaversal too, since some of those multiverses consist on a limited number.


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## Calamity (Feb 13, 2012)

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't this go like this? 

Universe-A single universe with some natural/physical laws.
Multiverse-Collection of multiple universes with the same physcial laws.
Megaverse-Collection of multiple megaverses each with their own distinct laws.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

I consider it a complexity thing rather than a range thing

Sure some guy can destroy a lot of universes but it'd be more complex and thus difficult to destroy a finite multiverse.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

If someone is capable of destroying an infinite amount of universes then he is not going to have problems with a finite multiverse.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

How do you know that?

A multiverse would be on a different set of laws and structures than a universe.

It's not like a planet buster in comparison to sun busting.

It'd likely deal with more than hitting it until it breaks.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Megaverse is a term that only really exist in comic giants like Marvel, Image Comics and DC.

You can't really prove the existence of megaverses in other series IIRC.

Anyways, from the evidences I read up by a bit of lurking I say SMT is multiversal+
There's nothing certain that could put them above the level of infinite parallel universes. At least not according to my knowledge.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Multiverse = several universes

How exactly is someone that can destroy infinite amount of universes going to have problem with that?


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Megaverse is a term that only really exist in comic giants like Marvel, Image Comics and DC.
> 
> You can't really prove the existence of megaverses in other series IIRC.
> 
> ...



My point exactly.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

Multiverse = something that contains several universes not just several universes on their own.


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## DestinyDestroyer (Feb 13, 2012)

Standby for the incoming shitstorm in 3..2..1


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## Black Leg Sanji (Feb 13, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> There's nothing certain that could put them above the level of infinite parallel universes.



Haruka and Noein fusion on the other hand


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> Multiverse = something that contains several universes not just several universes on their own.



Don't really get what you mean by this....


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

see this shit is why this shit is so fucking annoying

 in case because nothing this far up is definite and thus definitions are  subjective to certain extents.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 13, 2012)

the megaverses feat is on the second page


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

What I mean

Is a multiverse:

Numerours parallel realities?
multiple dimensions?
several universes that exist with no definitive connection?
a number of universes that are the set of something?

the truth is that it's all of them.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

> The LT holds in one hand Two Megaverses.
> 
> Each Megaverse is a collection of Multiverses.
> 
> Just one Multiverse = an infinite amount of Universes.



This proves my point. You can't claim megaverse power unless you can prove each multiverse as an infinite amount of universes in it.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> What I mean
> 
> Is a multiverse:
> 
> ...



Then like I said if we go by this, then a lot of characters fall in this tier then, for example the chousin and counter actor, but we know they aren't in that tier, not even close.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

And that's just Marvel's definition.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 13, 2012)

It does say 2 megaverses in there


and Marvel defines them as such


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

The issue is that the most standard definition for a multiverse =/= marvel's definition for it

standard: More than one universe
Marvel: Infinite Universes
MegaVerse: collection of different multiverses

and thus we can't base megaverses because fucking Comic logic


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> And that's just Marvel's definition.



And isn't that the definiton we go by here?

If we are going to use yours then a lot of characters just jumped tiers.



zenieth said:


> The issue is that the most standard definition for a multiverse =/= marvel's definition for it
> 
> and thus we can't base megaverses because fucking Comic logic



True.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

No Marvel's tier isn't what we go by for multiversal, we use some but not all because comics are subjective and nonstatic as all fucking hell.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

In the end since we go by comic logic here then you dn't have feats to claim megaverse power. Now if we were to use your logic a lot of characters would fall in that tier, but that is not going to fly here.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> No Marvel's tier isn't what we go by for multiversal, we use some but not all because comics are subjective and nonstatic as all fucking hell.



If this is true then, not only YHVH is megaversal, but the chousin, counter actor, Demonbane, Noein, LoN are too, but you know that isn't true.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

I never said that was my logic

I said there were numerous definitions for multiversal not that I believe that we should subscribe to every form as a tier


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## Calamity (Feb 13, 2012)

Casshern said:


> If we are going to use yours then a lot of characters just jumped tiers.
> 
> True.



Saint Seiya-verse and When They Cry-verse are the ones that come to mind ATM.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

You keep assuming the OBD goes by hard comic logic, but that's not true because

comics due to multiple authors, multiple continuities and numerous retcons is just plain horrible basis

taking certain things from comics isn't beyond the OBD but we don't subscribe 100% to comic logic because there is none.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

YVWH governs a megaverse. What does one think the Amala Universe is in the first place if not that?

As for him in Strange Journey/IV, they were smarting after III, when only three of certain major arch-angels appear as the Three Wise Men and Demiurge's power was being sealed by Mem Aleph suggests limiting them at a mere multiversal scope is hilarious.

Actually that last bit confirms SMT SJ takes place canonically after SMT II but it makes more sense that way.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> You keep assuming the OBD goes by hard comic logic, but that's not true because
> 
> comics due to multiple authors, multiple continuities and numerous retcons is just plain horrible basis
> 
> taking certain things from comics isn't beyond the OBD but we don't subscribe 100% to comic logic because there is none.



I am cool with this, but the problem is that if we don't base ourselves on something then like I said a lot of fictions are going to jump tiers that they shouldn't, because their feats don't have what it takes.

SMT being Multiversal+ is fine but megaversal is asking for too much, like willy said I am yet to see another fiction that isn't a comic being able to claim that unless we subject to use different definitions.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

Casshern said:


> I am cool with this, but the problem is that if we don't base ourselves on something then like I said a lot of fictions are going to jump tiers that they should, because their feats don't have what it takes.
> 
> SMT being Multiversal+ is fine but megaversal is asking for too much, like willy said I am yet to see another fiction that isn't a comic being able to claim that unless we subject to use different definitions.



The obd doesn't need a definitive base due to the sheer scope and subjectivity of fiction it needs to encompass multiple points and views. Some are better to use and easier to explain than otherse

Some are convenient, hardfast etc.

We can't have a hard base scientifically because fiction just outright contradicts it at the end of the day

and we can't have a hard base in comics because it's just too much bedlam.

or manga, novels, games, movies etc.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

At of the day.

The OBD must encompass all but subscribe to none in order to work.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> The obd doesn't need a definitive base due to the sheer scope and subjectivity of fiction it needs to encompass multiple points and views. Some are better to use and easier to explain than otherse
> 
> Some are convenient, hardfast etc.
> 
> ...



Then we go back to people being able to claim things and just go for the "is subjective" argument.

Really man if we don't base things in something then at the end of the day people can claim a lot of things as hard facts without the feats to prove it.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> At of the day.
> 
> The OBD must encompass all but subscribe to none in order to work.



Then SMT isn't the only one being megaversal at this point and we know this is wrong.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Haruka and Noein fusion on the other hand


Haruka is multiversal+, given she's the ultimate observer of all the infinite parallel universes.

Noein on the other hand is hard to quantify. Technically, he had absorbed multiple universes into his being so he could be multiversal. But on the other hand he didn't absorb them all at once but in a succession. Meaning his absorption abilities can only work on a single universe at once.

There's also the thing that Noein's minions are hilariously weak. At least compared to his supposed power.

Noeinverse suffers from the same problem as the Tenchverse. Not enough high end feats.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

Casshern said:


> Then we go back to people being able to claim things and just go for the "is subjective" argument.
> 
> Really man if we don't base things in something then at the end of the day people can claim a lot of things as hard facts without the feats to prove it.



No you're not understanding my point

I'm not saying that everything is subjective.

I am saying that we have our own laws our own facts and our own theories. 

Some may be derived from other sources but there's not 1 single "parent"

The obd isn't perfect, nothing is but it's worked fine so far and we constantly attempt to work out the kinks but they're there and sometimes we just can't deal all at once.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> No you're not understanding my point
> 
> I'm not saying that everything is subjective.
> 
> ...



Ok. Then that brings me back to my last post of  SMT not being the only one being megaversal at this point and let's be honest, this is wrong.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Feb 13, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Haruka is multiversal+, given she's the ultimate observer of all the infinite parallel universes.
> 
> Noein on the other hand is hard to quantify. Technically, he had absorbed multiple universes into his being so he could be multiversal. But on the other hand he didn't absorb them all at once but in a succession. Meaning his absorption abilities can only work on a single universe at once.
> 
> ...



I was more getting at the fact that the Dragon Torque would eventualy affect every possible timeline

Thus, megaversal


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't even know what the fuck you even mean with that statement.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

It means that if we use what you are saying, then yeah YHVH is megaversal, as well as Demonbane, The Chousin, Counter Actor etc....get it now?

See BLS post, he gets the point.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 13, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> the megaverses feat is on the second page



a lot of the scans there just don't fucking work anymore

anyway, here:

*Spoiler*: __ 









From Adventures of the X-Men#12

yeah, those are The Brothers from that crossover, but I heard this event is supposed to be canon 

if anyone wants to come in and correct shit, feel free to do so


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

noting in anything that I posted in the last two pages points to that conclusion.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

He's harping on the same statement that was refuted in the last SMT thread he tried to argue against, and failed horribly at that a few months ago. Literally, its the same debunked argument he's trying to revive to sound legit when its anything but at this point.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> noting in anything that I posted in the last two pages points to that conclusion.



It does because you are saying that having control over finite multiverses like for example the strange journey one that has like 9 IIRC and you don't know about the others grants you megaversal power, but then you have Marvel's definiton of Multiverse = infinite universes so a megaverse is having several of those which throws the SMT claim out of the window.

So we are not going to subscribe to any definiton, but we are going to use them all, thus a lot of fictions have the same and better feats than the SMT side hence them being megaversal.

Which is wrong btw.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Universal = beings that can destroy an universe

Universal+ = beings that have complete mastery over a single universe (alternatively beings that can destroy an universe larger than the norm...which is pretty hard to quantify TBH)

Multiversal = beings that can destroy more than a single universe

Multiversal+ = Beings that can destroy immeasurable amount of universes, millions or even billions of them. The high end is being literally infinite parallel universes

Megaversal = Beings that can destroy more than a single multiverse (and by multiverses I mean the likes in the multiversal+'s description, meaning multiple infinitely branching universes)

Megaversal+ = Beings that can destroy nigh-infinite or even infinite amount of multiverses. Only the Marvelverse has something like that IRC.

Omniversal = Beings that can literally destroy anything and everything in existence. Beings that are a tier above even megaversal+ entities. The only true contender is the One Above All.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

I never said we subscribe to all definitions you fucking reading uncomprehending ass.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Universal = a being that can destroy an universe
> 
> Universal+ = being that has complete mastery over a single universe (alternatively beings that can destroy an universe larger than the norm...which is pretty hard to quantify TBH)
> 
> ...



Pretty much this.

And zenieth no need to get hostile, but guess you can't help it.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

When I have to civilly reiterate a point three times for you to still not get it. Yeah I'm going to be hostile.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

What did I say about hostility and off-topic posts?

Be on-topic and debate, otherwise just get out!

Casshern, don't answer if you don't have anything to add into the discussion.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Ok.

Willy hit the nail and serioulsy no one in SMT or anything outside comics can be called megaverse.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Feb 13, 2012)

So Megaversal is basicaly infinity above infinity

I think my head is going to hurt if i try to make more sense out of it


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

everything above multiversal is imaginary and stupid as all hell.

Like omnipotent debate level stupid man.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> everything above multiversal is imaginary and stupid as all hell.



Indeed

Personaly i stick to Universal, Multiversal and Omniversal myself


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> So Megaversal is basicaly infinity above infinity
> 
> I think my head is going to hurt if i try to make more sense out of it





Perfect.

But yeah Megaversal and up are just ridiculous things.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

Now all he's doing is riddling the discussion with nonsensical non-sequiters.

There several verified multiverses and more then that in multiversal beings, multiple multiverses and everything goes back to an original origin point: YVWH, just like everything in every parallel reality, timeline, universe, creation, and so forth goes.

Again by that conclusion: YVWH is beyond the concept of being a mere being who exists beyond the pale of multiversal scope.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Fang if you have read the thread you would understand that the megaversal claim has been debunked, multiversal+ is what you get.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

Sounds like another non-sequiter when you can't even prove your point or make one in the first place.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 13, 2012)

and just to top it all off



again, if anyone's got better sources about the LT and megaversal bullshit, post it


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## Black Leg Sanji (Feb 13, 2012)

I think we need EM here

He could probably cook up something that is comprehensible


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Proved my point already, Willy got it right away, not my fault that you can't accept it.


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## Calamity (Feb 13, 2012)

So does this mean anyone from comics who has some "megaversal" showing auto-wins against a non-comic character?


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

>YWVH
>creates and destroys billions of universes in a blink of an eye at the same time constantly
>is the creator of the Amala Universe (which spans every universe, alternate reality, and differing parallel "world")
>also includes all the other multiverses and dimensions like Mem Alpeh's Schwartzawelt (compromised of 9 universe spanning dimensions) and the Persona multiverse
>weaker Avatar, Kagakusutchi exists beyond human comprehension in alternate universes according to Lucifer's Women in Black
>"Just multiversal" blah blah blah

Yeah, there goes his logic.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

You need to stop making all these higherversal threads

they're annoying as shit and it makes up 95% of the shit you do.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

@Moshi: Comics are ridiculous that is why they are in the top of the chain.

@Fang: Seriously already went over that.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> You need to stop making all these higherversal threads
> 
> they're annoying as shit and it makes up 95% of the shit you do.



I know, but there is nothing wrong with wanting someone to prove a claim.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

Nah, you just went off on a non-sensical tangent that made no sense.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

There is something wrong with making nine absolute upper tier threads 

they are annoying as hell and ultimately turn into feats analysis threads

WHICH IS EVEN MORE ANNOYING AS SHIT


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Sure.

Thread served it's purpose, to shot down those YHVH is megaversal  claims.



zenieth said:


> There is something wrong with making nine absolute upper tier threads
> 
> they are annoying as hell and ultimately turn into feats analysis threads
> 
> WHICH IS EVEN MORE ANNOYING AS SHIT



Annoying, yeah. But this is the purpose of the OBD.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

No the purpose f OBD is to watch your favorite X punch his favorite X in the face.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

zenieth said:


> No the purpose f OBD is to watch your favorite X punch his favorite X in the face.



I can agree on this.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

>still no rebuttal to YWVH's feats

Concession accepted.


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## Casshern (Feb 13, 2012)

Man you really need to stop this, people that have way more knowledge than you understand this things, but you keep on even when you have been proved wrong....well I am out since this debate is over.


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## Keollyn (Feb 13, 2012)

I always subscribed to the thought of:

2 or more universes equal a multiverse

2 or more multiverse equal a megaverse

2 or more megaverse equal an omniverse

Once we try to get further than that simple equation, we start to just land in fuck all ville.


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## Big Bοss (Feb 13, 2012)

Does fuck all ville have hot women? this is important.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

Keo, knows what's up.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> Does fuck all ville have hot women? this is important.



no

because hot women don't fuck all.


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## Big Bοss (Feb 13, 2012)

Then fuck all ville.


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## Keollyn (Feb 13, 2012)

It's the land were Omnipotent debates happen. Hot women have better things to do.


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## Nevermind (Feb 13, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> didn't the LT hold two megaverses in the palms of his hands or some shit
> 
> anyway, my jelly sensors are going on alert for some reason and I can't explain why



Yep.



willyvereb said:


> Ok, let's stop it guys!
> 
> Otherwise I have to lock this thread until someone who's willing to debate for the SMT's side appears.
> 
> No more off-topic posts are allowed in this thread.



Should have been locked on the first page man.



zenieth said:


> You need to stop making all these higherversal threads
> 
> they're annoying as shit and it makes up 95% of the shit you do.





zenieth said:


> There is something wrong with making nine absolute upper tier threads
> 
> they are annoying as hell and ultimately turn into feats analysis threads
> 
> WHICH IS EVEN MORE ANNOYING AS SHIT



Just fucking this.

Multiverse = more than one universe.
Megaverse = more than one multiverse.

As with everything else there are varying different levels of multiversal and megaversal. Say LT would be a rather high tier one while YHVH would be a lower tier one.


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## teddy (Feb 13, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Just fucking this.
> 
> Multiverse = more than one universe.
> Megaverse = more than one multiverse.
> ...



I agree with this.


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## Calamity (Feb 13, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Yep.
> 
> Say LT would be a rather high tier one while YHVH would be a lower tier one.



Leaving aside all the deep stuff, this one line just summed up the match.


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## zenieth (Feb 13, 2012)

No one expected YHWH to win so why're you pointing out the obvious?


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## Calamity (Feb 13, 2012)

Was that for me? Even though what he said was obvious, the way he said it was pretty cool.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Fang said:


> >YWVH
> >creates and destroys billions of universes in a blink of an eye at the same time constantly
> >is the creator of the Amala Universe (which spans every universe, alternate reality, and differing parallel "world")
> >also includes all the other multiverses and dimensions like Mem Alpeh's Schwartzawelt (compromised of 9 universe spanning dimensions) and the Persona multiverse
> ...


All the things you've listed are the definition of a strong multiversal+ being. With feats to back it up, no less. That's unusual at such tier.

Yet that's hardly megaversal.

For megaversal entities you need multiple infinitely branching universes or some similar shit.

That's why I said only comic giants like DC and Marvel can really the gasp the concept of megaverse.

No wonder since that stuff is basically their own invention, alongside the omniverse.


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## Calamity (Feb 13, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> No wonder since that stuff is basically their own invention, alongside the omniverse.



Something interesting: 
Start at 9:30
[YOUTUBE]HSL9JCcg1zw[/YOUTUBE]


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

^Proves that there are some serious comic geeks amongst all those cosmologists and mathematicians.


IIRC the term of omniverse was invented by Marvel back in the 80s.


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## Big Bοss (Feb 13, 2012)

So Xenoverse comes before Omniverse


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## Calamity (Feb 13, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> So Xenoverse comes before Omniverse



LOL. They apparently look pretty epic as well:
*Spoiler*: __


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

@Fang: I like your strong rebuttal...or the complete lack of it.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

My strong rebuttal was already stated, you just gave a silly subjective response. 

What a nice "refutation".

Insert emoticon here to convey sarcasm.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Except that I already explained to you, why that doesn't make YhWH megaversal.

You didn't make a single point that proves that SMT has more than a single multiverse.
And by multiverse, I mean a collection of infinite universes.
There's one such world, the Amala Universe. Might as well the smaller multiverses like Aleph's and Persona's could be part of it, as well.
Same way creating billions of universes with each passing time is a possible concept within an infinite multiverse.

There are two concepts of infinite space.
Infinite distance and infinitely growing distance. YHWH's example likely covers the latter.

So yeah.
Unless you can prove that there are more than one distinct multiverses with a collection of infinite worlds then SMT is hardly a megaverse.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

Uh yes I did.

The Amala Universe is an infinite multiverse, and its not the only multiverse in the SMT "universe". Either you concede the term megaversal is nonsensical or you concede that YWVH meets that standard. Ryoma, Raidou and others have shown this in past threads before.

Its win win for our side either way.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 13, 2012)

A megaverse is just a collection of multiverses, isn't it?

Which means you could be megaversal even if you controlled as little as four universes (two multiverses composed of two universes each).

So what's the problem here? If YHVH has power over multiple distinct multiverses than he's megaversal.

Infinity is not required in any part of this equation.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Good job missing the point entirely.
So...can you prove there are more than a single multiveerse that collects infinite or nigh-infinite universes.
Smaller multiverses don't count for the reason I explained above.
Not to mention that their scale is irrelevant compared to a truly infinite multiverse.

@Eldritch Sukima:That's exactly the problem we have here.
By semantics destroying 2 multiverses containing 2 universes each would consititute for megaversal.
But that's leagues below the scale of even multiversal+ destructive capacity.
4 universes <<<<< infinite universes

That's why I only cont the collection of multiversal+ scale multiverses for a megaverse.

A criteria that SMT and (almost any other verse) doesn't meet.


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## Ulti (Feb 13, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> I was more getting at the fact that the Dragon Torque would eventualy affect every possible timeline
> 
> Thus, megaversal



I can't be arsed to wade through the shit in this thread but after seeing this I'm curious

would Final Fantasy be a megaverse? cause of VIII and *XIII-2 spoilers*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Caius destroying every possible timeline in one of the paradox endings or some shit or so I've been told will have to confirm this for myself


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

Nah, I didn't miss the point I just noticed how you keep evading the fact that the Amala Universe does that and then you have DDS with infinitely higher and higher planes of existence, among others. The fact that he creates and destroys essentially an infinite amount of universes constantly outside of the Amala Universe and his avatars constantly forcing a cycle of death and rebirth of other universes and the other multiverses that don't exist within the zone of Conception is kind of hilarious.

Again either concede the term is stupid, or YWVH meets the standard, or simply multiversal doesn't do any justice to his capabilities as a cosmic nigh omnipotent being.


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## Huey Freeman (Feb 13, 2012)

Just so I can get an understanding. YHVH stand for exactly?


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## Keollyn (Feb 13, 2012)

Can you refresh my memory Ulti, what about FF8? (haven't played since it was released thats why I ask)


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Except, it isn't, dear TWF:


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

So YWVH is metaversal now according to your link? Cool I accept that.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> I can't be arsed to wade through the shit in this thread but after seeing this I'm curious
> 
> would Final Fantasy be a megaverse? cause of VIII and *XIII-2 spoilers*
> 
> ...


Maybe it does. Which is hilarious in a hindsight of this debate.

Same way if we can accept the explanation about Staves then the Slayersverse is a megaverse as well with at least 4 infinite multiverses.

Although the latter isn't surprising. The author of Slayers was clearly inspired by Marvel/DC when he thought out the details of the Slayers cosmology.



Fang said:


> So YWVH is metaversal now according to your link? Cool I accept that.


Your persistence earns a praise Fang.

But unfortunately SMT only has a single verse that constitutes for the scientific term of multiverse.

So yeah, YHWH is still multiversal+.


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## Byrd (Feb 13, 2012)

I think chaos is confirmed to be one since he literally pull all the villians out the FF games


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## Ulti (Feb 13, 2012)

the loltimeantics of Ultimecia, whats her face (Squall's Sister or whatever) sending their consciousness' to other timelines and other shit plus there was some Word of God stating that time compression was to be used on every possible timeline compressing it to the one moment Ultimecia was truly happy, I actually think this was said in Dissidia come to think of it.

And of course Squall's pants  to be serious I might be remembering it wrong since it's been a while since I played too.

I know for sure that it happens in XIII-2 seeing as I'm playing it now, Serah and Noel have already created an alternate timeline by fucking around 

Should say this is to Keo


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## Byrd (Feb 13, 2012)

Wait a min.. this would make Lavos a megaversal being as well at the end of CC... He was literally eating timelines


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## Ulti (Feb 13, 2012)

oh god this is getting stupid now


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Your persistence earns a praise Fang.
> 
> But unfortunately SMT only has a single verse that constitutes for the scientific term of multiverse.
> 
> So yeah, YHWH is still multiversal+.



Wrong.

There is not a single multiverse that encompasses everything SMT, the Amala Universe is simply the main one. YWVH constantly creating and destroying infinite clusters of universes in an eye blink, the higher realms of reality and existence in DDS, the Persona multiverse, the Devil Survivor dimension, Mem Aleph's Schwartzwelt and so forth.

Your still horribly wrong in this. The easiest route is you simply conceding the term is stupid or that YWVH meets the standard.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 13, 2012)

Calling Squall's Pants megaversal is an insult to them.

They has infinite omniverses stuffed in their pockets.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 13, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> I can't be arsed to wade through the shit in this thread but after seeing this I'm curious
> 
> would Final Fantasy be a megaverse? cause of VIII and *XIII-2 spoilers*
> 
> ...



a single universe can contain several, if not infinite timelines in some fictions 

pretty sure Marvel and DC has a universe where there are different possible timelines and all that shit, but still contained in that single universe


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## Ulti (Feb 13, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Calling Squall's Pants megaversal is an insult to them.
> 
> They has infinite omniverses stuffed in their pockets.







Crimson Dragoon said:


> a single universe can contain several, if not infinite timelines in some fictions
> 
> pretty sure Marvel and DC has a universe where there are different possible timelines and all that shit, but still contained in that single universe



Fair enough. But Final Fantasy is still a multiverse, though said feats might just apply to that universe.

Quantifying shit like this sucks


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 13, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Calling Squall's Pants megaversal is an insult to them.
> 
> They has infinite omniverses stuffed in their pockets.



there is nothing those pants can't carry


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Byrdman said:


> Wait a min.. this would make Lavos a megaversal being as well at the end of CC... He was literally eating timelines


Yeah, you're pretty much being confused.

Eating timelines is a multiversal feat at best.

Unless Lavos as the Time Devourer could destroy all  the timelines. Which means every parallel universes that are theoretically infinite.

Now, megaversal is a step above that level.

If a true multiverse is a collection of infinite universes then a megaverse is the collection of infinite multiverses.

Infinite x Infinite = Megaversal+

Infinite (universes) x 2 (or any other finite number) = Megaversal (without the "+" suffix)

Yeah, this stuff about different levels of infinity is quite confusing. I honestly admit.

This is pretty much the area of speculative science and philosophy.
Drown yourself deep in any of those and you're guaranteed to turn into a madman.


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## Byrd (Feb 13, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> a single universe can contain several, if not infinite timelines in some fictions
> 
> pretty sure Marvel and DC has a universe where there are different possible timelines and all that shit, but still contained in that single universe



How do you draw the line?

in Muv-luv the love interest of the hero was time looping the hero causing an infinite number of timelines... the hero became a causality conductor suck in an infinite loop until the love interest gets him to say but all this happen in the same universe but the game was calling them parallel universes


@willyvereb

it was stated by word of God, if he had achieve maturity he would have devour all timelines in the space-time continuum.. he literally had to fused with the hero to do this...


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## Big Bοss (Feb 13, 2012)

Xenoverse is still above all that


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

^Indeed it is.
Xenoverse is like
 infinite x infinite x infinite = cubed infinite


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

You wish


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## Keollyn (Feb 13, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> the loltimeantics of Ultimecia, whats her face (Squall's Sister or whatever) sending their consciousness' to other timelines and other shit plus there was some Word of God stating that time compression was to be used on every possible timeline compressing it to the one moment Ultimecia was truly happy, I actually think this was said in Dissidia come to think of it.
> 
> And of course Squall's pants  to be serious I might be remembering it wrong since it's been a while since I played too.
> 
> ...



Exactly how I remembered it. 

_Closes eyes on XIII-2 talk_


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## Big Bοss (Feb 13, 2012)

Is a known fact


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Alright! It seems we've more or less reached a conclusion and discussed all to know about universes, multiverses, megaverses, metaverses, xenoverses and omniverses.

Maybe we even went a bit too far.


I'm gonna lock this thread in 15 minutes.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 13, 2012)

Byrdman said:


> How do you draw the line?
> 
> in Muv-luv the love interest of the hero was time looping the hero causing an infinite number of timelines... the hero became a causality conductor suck in an infinite loop until the love interest gets him to say but all this happen in the same universe but the game was calling them parallel universes



depends on the fiction really 

I normally view destroying timelines and destroying a multiverse as separate things though, since the former's effects could still be restricted to just one universe


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## Keollyn (Feb 13, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> Xenoverse is still above all that



And above the Xenoverse is the Men of the Sea...err sea


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 13, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Infinite x Infinite = Megaversal+
> 
> Infinite (universes) x 2 (or any other finite number) = Megaversal (without the "+" suffix)



So Yog-Sothoth is megaversal+?

I'm fine with this.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> Is a known fact



You want to get GER'd? 



Crimson Dragoon said:


> depends on the fiction really
> 
> I normally view destroying timelines and destroying a multiverse as separate things though, since the former's effects could still be restricted to just one universe



Exactly. You can have an "infinite" amount of divergent timelines in a single universe. Its not the same as separate universes though.


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## Keollyn (Feb 13, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Cubey is the secret final boss in the Xenoverse



That's just negworthy there.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 13, 2012)

I think we can all agree that the OP boasts a distinctly gelatinous composition.

I'm getting Elru vibes.


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## Big Bοss (Feb 13, 2012)

Keollyn said:


> And above the Xenoverse is the Men of the Sea...err sea



True power.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> So Yog-Sothoth is megaversal+?
> 
> I'm fine with this.



He is wall level.



Fang said:


> You want to get GER'd?



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSL9JCcg1zw&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

I have a youtube video


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Anyways, I announce it again.

This thread is going to be locked in 15 minutes.

Thank you for participating!


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

The OP has a similar posting style and join date as Sasaki_Kojiro.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

@Fang: Really? I'm sure to check it out as soon as I closed this thread.


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## teddy (Feb 13, 2012)

Nice mindfuck everyone.


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## Gone (Feb 13, 2012)

Why do threads get locked just because the topic gets discussed up? Maybe it will be brought up again later, why not leave it open?


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## Keollyn (Feb 13, 2012)

Grαhf said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSL9JCcg1zw&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> I have a youtube video



Counter stance. Ready!


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

@Ryjacork:Because it is already getting off-topic.

Not to mention that we discussed almost everything need to know about the match or the semantics of multi-,mega-,meta-,xeno- and omniverses.

As such lock is the only conclusion here.

@Fang: Nah, the OP doesn't appear to be a dupe. Perhaps my investigation tools are far from omnipotent.
Neither omniversal


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't know if its the same person, but his posting style is reminiscent.

Just like in last years thread where we proved SMT has multiple multiverses.


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## Big Bοss (Feb 13, 2012)

Keollyn said:


> Counter stance. Ready!



There is no counter for this.


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## teddy (Feb 13, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Why do threads get locked just because the topic gets discussed up? Maybe it will be brought up again later, why not leave it open?



Better to discuss it in the meta if there are further questions about this. Besides, the match itself has already reached a conclusion.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 13, 2012)

Fang said:


> Exactly. You can have an "infinite" amount of divergent timelines in a single universe. Its not the same as separate universes though.



Gonna go elaborate on this even further with the novel Creatures of Light and Darkness, because I like to use it whenever I can

The fighting style there, called Temporal Fugue, is basically time-travel kung-fu.  Someone who isn't a fugue user tries to punch one who is, but the Fugue user goes either forwards or backwards in time to "dodge" the attack and smack that person either 5 minutes in the past or in the future.  To other observers, it looks like he disappeared and is suddenly standing over his unconscious opponent.

That's because the timeline where he tries to punch is gone, erased, and is replaced with him being unconscious and beaten.  Fugue battles technically erase entire timelines in CoLaD, but it's nowhere even near universe busting, hell only planet-wide at most in terms of temporal fuckery. 

And there you all have it


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## Keollyn (Feb 13, 2012)

LoN shovel solos.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 13, 2012)

Sol's Heel>>>LoN's shovel


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## Big Bοss (Feb 13, 2012)

Xenoverse tells LoN to go make him a sammich, flawless victory.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

@Crimson Dragoon: Honestly, that's more like Crimson King's time erase ability from JJBA Part 5.

Normally, erasing timelines means destroying an entire alternate universe.

Although the context is extremely important regarding such claims or even feats.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

So YWVH's logic soloes Tenchi Muyo while I'm at it.


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Actually, yes.

Going purely by feats YHWH is superior to Kami Tenchi.


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## Fang (Feb 13, 2012)

As a metaversal being that he is, I agree.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Feb 13, 2012)

Fang said:


> You wish



Last i heard Xenogears was Space station-level


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## willyvereb (Feb 13, 2012)

Okay, time's up!

Excuse me for ruining circa 10+ ongoing post but I'm usually a man of my word.

This thread is now officially:


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