# Tobirama, Minato and Naruto vs Hashirama and Madara



## Kaiser (Sep 14, 2013)

Location: Madara vs 5 Kages
Restrictions: Minato has only one arm
Knowledge: Manga

Suppose they are all alive but with current feats


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## crisler (Sep 14, 2013)

I think narutos' team might actually take this one.

Minato and Tobirama can focus on distracting the two gods, while they warp away powerful jutsus cast by hashirama and madara while naruto focuses on the fight

Minato and Tobirama are individually weaker than hashi/madara, but not too far away, and they have teleportation so they can survive pretty long. Naruto is, i think, already close to hashirama or madara individually.

Having Tobirama, a man with intelligence and teleportation is a huge advnatage.


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## Coppur (Sep 14, 2013)

I'm not sure, however the combination of these 3 shinobi even made Juubito run away, although Tobirama will most likely not be quite as relevant as Minato or Naruto, due to them both having the bijuu mode capability. Although due to Minato's warping ability and the raw power of a BSM bijuu bomb, I give even the slightest of edges to Naruto's team.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 14, 2013)

How would Tobirama react to a shroud?


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 14, 2013)

Tobi+Hashi+Madara wins this more times then not IMO. Suppressing Kurama's chakra forcing Minato+Naruto to lose their Kurama avatar and without that I don't see those two on the level of Hashi+Madara.


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## SSJ God Kakarot (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Tobi+Hashi+Madara wins this more times then not IMO. Suppressing Kurama's chakra forcing Minato+Naruto to lose their Kurama avatar and without that I don't see those two on the level of Hashi+Madara.




^^^^^ this ^^^^^


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## J★J♥ (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Tobi+Hashi+Madara wins this more times then not IMO. Suppressing Kurama's chakra forcing Minato+Naruto to lose their Kurama avatar and without that I don't see those two on the level of Hashi+Madara.





SSJ God Kakarot said:


> ^^^^^ this ^^^^^


Tobirama is on Narutos side 

And Tobirama roflstoms Kyuubiless madara anytime.


Blake said:


> Restrictions: Minato has only one arm


Tobirama kills naruto and uses Minato to bring him back as edo.
Naruto then fights with Hashirama until Tobi assrapes Madara and helps him to beat Hashi.


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

Minato can solos Hashitama
and Naruto solos Madara

Tobirama is not needed, but since he's there, that will make things easier.


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## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Tobi+Hashi+Madara wins this more times then not IMO. Suppressing Kurama's chakra forcing Minato+Naruto to lose their Kurama avatar and without that I don't see those two on the level of Hashi+Madara.



Saying their chakra gets suppressed but not actually explaining how they go about doing that is like saying Konohomaru kills Hashirama with a kunai because hashirama can't tank a kunai to the head.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 14, 2013)

I shall lurk. I know Naruto would obliterate. 

BSM Naruto ends them in a blitz...Juubito style.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 14, 2013)

BM Naruto + BM Minato >>>>>


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 14, 2013)

This is what happens when Madara slashes once with Perfect Susano'o:



What happens when Madara spins with Perfect Susano'o:



Both are with one sword. He can slash with two swords at one time. And his attack doesn't end there. He can literally just keep slashing with that force that cut apart two mountains at once. 

Oh, but it doesn't stop there. Madara can literally spam throwing these PS swords like Shurikens (imagine the below image without the Bijudama in the middle).




I would also like to point out that Hashirama caught a Bijudama from the Full Kyuubi without Senpo Mokuton. Does this mean that Senpo Mokuton can catch a Senpo Bijudama? I don't know. It's featless at this point. The Shinju interrupted the Senpo Flash Bijudama, which is disappointing. Hopefully we'll see it sooner or later. 

The only feat that BSM Naruto has at this point is combining a Rasengan with Minato. Who knows how much faster or stronger it made him. But I don't know if it's enough to beat these two.

Anyone that thinks this is a stomp on Naruto's side is just fooling themselves though. Tobirama and Minato are all but helpless against Madara's onslaught. Naruto is the only shot they have at winning.


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## Dominus (Sep 14, 2013)

Elia said:


> Minato can solos Hashitama
> and Naruto solos Madara
> 
> Tobirama is not needed, but since he's there, that will make things easier.



One-armed Minato beating Hashirama.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 14, 2013)

How does Madara & Hashirama not get cut in half by BSM Naruto blitzing at them with two FRSz in hand?

Oh right. Hashirama throws up a branch and Madara activates a ribcage. Got it.


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> One-armed Minato beating Hashirama.



Sorry, did not pay attention to that. 
oh well, Tobirama will be needed then.


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Anyone that thinks this is a stomp on Naruto's side is just fooling themselves though.* Tobirama and Minato are all but helpless against Madara's onslaught.* Naruto is the only shot they have at winning.



lol
you do know they can teleport his PS and make Madara look stupid, right?


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 14, 2013)

Elia said:


> lol
> you do know they can teleport his PS and make Madara look stupid, right?



They have to actually make it to PS first. Do you honestly think they can make it even close to Madara? Any marking and/or FTG Kunai will be blown back along with the landscape that PS destroys with each slash. 

Or, as ueharakk explained already:




ueharakk said:


> Saying their chakra gets suppressed but not actually explaining how they go about doing that is like saying Konohomaru kills Hashirama with a kunai because hashirama can't tank a kunai to the head.



Just replace that scenario with what you're saying and it's the same thing. How do they go about doing that? And no, they're not going to blitz Madara.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 14, 2013)

I hate when people point out AOE attacks like that means it automatically >> other attacks. 

I mean shit, BM Naruto reflected 7 Bijuu Dama with his speed so Minato can do the same thing 

On topic, Minato teleports PS making Madara look like an idiot 

Also, Frog Song solos too.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 14, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> I hate when people point out AOE attacks like that means it automatically >> other attacks.
> 
> I mean shit, BM Naruto reflected 7 Bijuu Dama with his speed so Minato can do the same thing
> 
> ...



Bro, do you even count?


Perfect Susano'o can cut through Mokuton hands that can catch a Bijudama from the full Kyuubi like a baseball. Perfect Susano'o can also shove the sword through a Bijudama, once again, from the full Kyuubi.


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> They have to actually make it to PS first. Do you honestly think they can make it even close to Madara? Any marking and/or FTG Kunai will be blown back along with the landscape that PS destroys with each slash.



Yes, I do. 
Madara did not even react to A's speed in V1, do you honestly think that Madara will react to
BM Minato or BM Naruto? 

+ Minato arrived to the battlefield and putted his marks arround the 10tails and no one notice 
him, including madara, why do you think he won't do it against the PS who's far smaller?


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 14, 2013)

Elia said:


> Yes, I do.
> Madara did not even react to A's speed in V1, do you honestly think that Madara will react to
> BM Minato or BM Naruto?
> 
> ...



Yes, he did react to A's speed in V1. He looked straight at him and even blocked his punch. He was in the air, however, and it's not like he could just dodge in mid-air. 

Madara also kept up with Hashirama, who was fast enough to outrun Perfect Susano'o's destruction. 

Minato also set up those kunai. It's not like he has any prep time before hand.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 14, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Tobirama is on Narutos side when Tobi



Tobirama is too much of a bitch to do anything against Hashirama. Refer to Tobirama raised his chakra aganist Taka and Hashirama made Tobirama his bitch and made him stop. Or refer to when when Tobirama tried to kill Madara but Hashi stopped him. Oh yeah Tobirama is gonna work with Hashi no matter what team he starts on.



> And *Tobirama roflstoms Kyuubiless madara* anytime.






Looks like someone doesn't read the manga.




ueharakk said:


> Saying their chakra gets suppressed but not actually explaining how they go about doing that is like saying Konohomaru kills Hashirama with a kunai because hashirama can't tank a kunai to the head.



That's pretty neat, want a cookie?


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Yes, he did react to A's speed in V1. He looked straight at him and even blocked his punch. He was in the air, however, and it's not like he could just dodge in mid-air.
> 
> Madara also kept up with Hashirama, who was fast enough to outrun Perfect Susano'o's destruction.
> 
> Minato also set up those kunai. It's not like he has any prep time before hand.



O.K, but In Minato and Tobirama's case they put their marks on the the other. After that
they can attack him whenever, wherever, However they please. Even his PS won't stop that
since they will teleport inside. 

BASE Minato is MUCH faster than Hashirama. 

- It does not matter, he set up those Kunais around the 10tails, and one in the rock 
and had a conversation with  Naruto + teleported the Juubi's TBB and after ALL of that
Hashirama came, you see the different? And AGAIN that was BASE Minato.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 14, 2013)

Elia said:


> O.K, but In Minato and Tobirama's case they put their marks on the the other. After that
> they can attack him whenever, wherever, However they please. Even his PS won't stop that
> since they will teleport inside.
> 
> ...



Hashirama stayed with Hiruzen and Tobirama and Minato used Hiraishin to get around. Are you now going to say that Hiruzen = Tobirama = Hashirama in speed? 

Here is a good idea of how far away they were from the ocean prior.

Note that there are mountains between the two points.

Hashirama covers that distance ridiculously quickly.

Hashirama's base speed is actually much faster than most people think. And Madara is able to keep up with it and even wound him in a Taijutsu/Kenjutsu match.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 14, 2013)

Shodai speed is roughly equal to Old Sarutobi. Base Minato reached the battlefield far quicker and was able to use S/T Barrier on the Juubidama, mark all around the the Juubi without Madara noticing, and talk to Naruto before Shodai even arrived.

Shodai is not even close to being a fast ninja. Add in KCM or BM to Minato and Shodai is effectively moving in slow motion compared to Minato.


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## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Just replace that scenario with what you're saying and it's the same thing. How do they go about doing that? And no, they're not going to blitz Madara.



Show me where I've said anything about how Minato, Naruto and Tobirama win.  All I'm saying is that if you want to assert that Hashirama wins via suppression, you're going to have to show how he accomplishes that because like the konohomaru example simply having the tools to suppress or kill your foe doesn't even imply that you will beat them more times than not.



SesshomaruX2 said:


> That's pretty neat, want a cookie?



Considering that your post isn't a counterargument in any way, then you've tacitly conceded and thus rescinded your assertion that Hashirama suppresses Naruto and Minato's chakra.  Either that or you agree that Konohomaru > Madara.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Show me where I've said anything about how Minato, Naruto and Tobirama win.  All I'm saying is that if you want to assert that Hashirama wins via suppression, you're going to have to show how he accomplishes that because like the konohomaru example simply having the tools to suppress or kill your foe doesn't even imply that you will beat them more times than not..



My post wasn't directed at you at all. I was just using your words to ask the same type of question to the person I was originally quoted. The Mokuton Dragon by itself is a non-factor though, so I agree with you.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Considering that your post isn't a counterargument in any way, then you've tacitly conceded and thus rescinded your assertion that Hashirama suppresses Naruto and Minato's chakra.  Either that or you agree that Konohomaru > Madara.



Manga is my counter argument which shows Wood suppressing Kurama's chakra, your opinion on this matter means jack shit here.


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## Rocky (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Manga is my counter argument which shows Wood suppressing Kurama's chakra, your opinion on this matter means jack shit here.



That kind of didn't work.

Notice how Madara didn't end up beating Naruto and capturing the Kyuubi.


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## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> My post wasn't directed at you at all. I was just using your words to ask the same type of question to the person I was originally quoted. The Mokuton Dragon by itself is a non-factor though, so I agree with you.



my bad, i reread your post and I'd agree with it.



SesshomaruX2 said:


> Manga is my counter argument which shows Wood suppressing Kurama's chakra, your opinion on this matter means jack shit here.



yeah and the manga is my counterargument showing hashirama can get killed by a kunai.  Or madara can't live after getting a kunai shoved in his head.

thus you'd have to logically conclude that konohomaru would beat hashirama or madara since they die if he shoves a kunai into their head.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 14, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That kind of didn't work.
> 
> Notice how Madara didn't end up beating Naruto and capturing the Kyuubi.



Did Madara not force Naruto to lose the Kurama avatar like I said?



ueharakk said:


> yeah and the manga is my counterargument showing hashirama can get killed by a kunai.  Or madara can't live after getting a kunai shoved in his head.
> 
> thus you'd have to logically conclude that konohomaru would beat hashirama or madara since they die if he shoves a kunai into their head.



If they got stabbed in the head by then yeah Kono would win, anyone who does that would beat them.


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## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> If they got stabbed in the head by then yeah Kono would win, anyone who does that would beat them.



yeah so by the logic that just because hashirama has a way to suppress their chakra = hashirama suppresses their chakra, you'd have to conclude that just because Konohomaru has a way to kill Madara = konohomaru kills madara.


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## Rocky (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Did Madara not force Naruto to lose the Kurama avatar like I said?



Momentarily, but then Naruto broke the Mokuryū with Shunshin. Then, Naruto proceeded to intercept Madara with a limb of Kurama.

I don't see how suppression is supposed to work when Naruto can just super Shunshin away and reactivate the avatar.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> yeah so by the logic that just because hashirama has a way to suppress their chakra = hashirama suppresses their chakra, you'd have to conclude that just because Konohomaru has a way to kill Madara = konohomaru kills madara.



If Kono showed the skill to do such then i'd agree but since he hasn't, your logic faails.



Rocky said:


> Momentarily, but then Naruto broke the Mokuryū with Shunshin. Then, Naruto proceeded to intercept Madara with a limb of Kurama.
> 
> I don't see how suppression is supposed to work when Naruto can just super Shunshin away and reactivate the avatar.



Concession accepted, thanks for agreeing.


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## Dominus (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Tobirama is too much of a bitch to do anything against Hashirama. Refer to Tobirama raised his chakra aganist Taka and Hashirama made Tobirama his bitch and made him stop. Or refer to when when Tobirama tried to kill Madara but Hashi stopped him. Oh yeah Tobirama is gonna work with Hashi no matter what team he starts on.



By that logic Hashirama is going to commit suicide because he would rather kill himself than kill Tobirama.


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Hashirama stayed with Hiruzen and Tobirama and Minato used Hiraishin to get around. Are you now going to say that Hiruzen = Tobirama = Hashirama in speed?
> 
> Here is a good idea of how far away they were from the ocean prior.
> 
> ...



I don't see the problem with that since Hashi was never known for his speed actually. 

- O.K in that case
ridiculously quickly
Minato teleported Kurama several mountains away from the village
ridiculously quickly

after a small conversation with Kushina Hiruzen arrived. 

Also, I'm not sure if you want to tell me that Hashi was not using his full speed just because
Hiruzen arrived at the same time like him! Because that's baseless and we can say that about
the others as well! 

all what is that show that you overestimate Hashi's speed, and he's not as fast as you think
 in fact the TBB itself is not that fast either.


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## Rocky (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Concession accepted, thanks for agreeing.




Except I didn't agree. You said they couldn't win without the avatar. Naruto beat Madara's suppression and continued to use the avatar, so....


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 14, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> By that logic Hashirama is going to commit suicide because he would rather kill himself than kill Tobirama.



 That's right and Madara isn't beating these three so team one wins.



Rocky said:


> Except I didn't agree. You said they couldn't win without the avatar. Naruto beat Madara's suppression and continued to use the avatar, so....



So you didn't say that Madara forced Naruto out of the avatar for any length of time? Madara and Hashi can constantly use suppression to constantly force Naruto+Minato out of it thus they'd be force to mainly fight without it, well BM only last a few minutes anyway before it needs to recharge so there's that too.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 14, 2013)

Elia said:


> I don't see the problem with that since Hashi was never known for his speed actually.
> 
> - O.K in that case
> ridiculously quickly
> ...



All that was not just "a small conversation". Hiruzen started moving when he saw the explosion. The explosion finished, then the time it took the dust to clear. Then Minato and Kushina hid from Kurama temporarily before Kushina took the time to put a barrier up around Kurama.

Then Minato had a hefty conversation with a dying Kushina (which could easily slow her speech down) and even had time to start sobbing. By the time Hiruzen arrived, Minato already won an argument with his wife and started the Shiki Fujin.

That's a lot of time. It takes a second to read a panel, but actual speech takes much longer, and there's a lot of dramatic pauses, especially in a heavy conversation like that.

I'm not overestimating Hashirama's speed. I have not said anything that wasn't directly shown in canon regarding his speed. You're trying to downplay it with absolute nonsense about "a small conversation". 

Not only was Hashirama running from the Perfect Susano'o Biju-Shuriken, but he was running from Perfect Susano'o's attacks as seen in the page I posted above where he was running. And he literally covered that in seconds flat.

No, Hashirama was not known for his speed. He was known for being the strongest Shinobi of his era lmao. That's not a downplay on his speed in the least bit. It's just that his power is what he is known for. Itachi wasn't known for his speed either, was he? And he was one of the fastest Shinobi of HIS era, and the fastest Jutsu speed feats in the manga. He was known for his Genjutsu, because that's his most defining trait. Same thing with Hashirama and his absolute power.


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

> I'm not overestimating Hashirama's speed. I have not said anything that wasn't directly shown in canon regarding his speed. You're trying to downplay it with absolute nonsense about "a small conversation".



Lol, so Hiruzen arriving at the same time as Hashi is not canon? 
you think Hashi is faster, but Kishi does not think the same way like you
and because of that he made their speed equal to each other here
ridiculously quickly

anyway, this is not important. Because in all cases Minato's base speed >>>>> Hashi's


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## Rocky (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> So you didn't say that Madara forced Naruto out of the avatar for any length of time? Madara and Hashi can constantly use suppression to constantly force Naruto+Minato out of it thus they'd be force to mainly fight without it, well BM only last a few minutes anyway before it needs to recharge so there's that too.



How do Madara & Hashirama attempt an offense based solely around suppression and win? 

Madara and Hashirama's strongest abilities cannot suppress. Wood Dragons aren't going to accomplish anything against Naruto as we clearly saw.


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## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> If Kono showed the skill to do such then i'd agree but since he hasn't, your logic faails.


by your logic, all the skill konohomaru would need would be that of a kunai thrust, as madara will die if a kunai is thrust into his head.  

Thus if you don't agree that konohomaru > madara since konohomaru can kill madara, your logic has either failed, or you are utilizing a blatant double standard.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 14, 2013)

Rocky said:


> How do Madara & Hashirama attempt an offense based solely around suppression and win?



Minato and Naruto don't have the firepower to take those two out without the use of their Kurama Avatar. After that it's only matter of time.



> Madara and Hashirama's strongest abilities cannot suppress. Wood Dragons aren't going to accomplish anything against Naruto as we clearly saw.



Did it not force Naruto to leave Kurama avatar?


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 14, 2013)

Elia said:


> Lol, so Hiruzen arriving at the same time as Hashi is not canon?
> you think Hashi is faster, but Kishi does not think the same way like you
> and because of that he made their speed equal to each other here
> ridiculously quickly
> ...



This is such a faulty argument. How many times have we seen a team keep up with each other on a mission and they had different actual speeds in battle?

The Sasuke Retrieval team all had different levels of speed, but they stayed at exactly the same speed even though time was of the essence. Unless you want to say base Chouji = Neji in speed in that particular arc.

In the Chuunin Exams, Kakashi and Sasuke arrived at the same time to show up for Sasuke's fight against Gaara. Does that mean they have the same speed?

When Neji was about to kill Hinata, all the Jounin stopped him at the same time. Does that mean they are all of equal speed (This included Gai, Kakashi, Kurenai and Hayate)?

Naruto kept up with the same pace as Sasuke when he was chasing him in the Retrieval Arc.

The Sound 4 kept up with each other. Are they all equal in speed?

Sasuke kept up with edo Itachi while jumping through the trees.

Shall I continue?

Edit: For the record, I never stated that Hashi>Minato in speed. But there is no blitzing to be had here. That's all I'm saying.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> by your logic, all the skill konohomaru would need would be that of a kunai thrust, as madara will die if a kunai is thrust into his head.



False, by my logic because Madara+Hashi have the skill to keep up with Naruto in his Kurama avatar and suppress it and force him out just like in canon. I told you this before(although I hacked my bros attack and was post via his account), I'm not gonna baby you and hold your hand through every little detail just like I didn't when you wanted me to name some large scale Wood jutsu when I said that would eventually overwhelm a KCM Naruto. 




> Thus if you don't agree that konohomaru > madara since konohomaru can kill madara, your logic has either failed, or you are utilizing a blatant double standard.



I do like to pull double standards.


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## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> False, by my logic because Madara+Hashi have the skill to keep up with Naruto in his Kurama avatar and suppress it and force him out just like in canon.



Well, then that's bringing up something new: that it's not only having the tool, but its being able to keep up with naruto in his kurama avatar.  Now you'd have to explain what you mean by "keep up".  Do you mean footspeed or overall powerlevel battle ability because if its the later, it doesn't mean anything as hashirama nor madara have gone up against BSM Naruto or BM Minato, and them having general power levels above BM Naruto wouldn't mean that they beat him via chakra suppression.  finally, if you want to say "it happened in the manga" then KN1 Lee solos Edo madara and thus BM Naruto solos him with utter ease let alone BSM Naruto.



SesshomaruX2 said:


> I told you this before(although I hacked my bros attack and was post via his account), I'm not gonna baby you and hold your hand through every little detail just like I didn't when you wanted me to name some large scale Wood jutsu when I said that would eventually overwhelm a KCM Naruto.


Well if you are just going to post assertions and logic that would lead you to conclude things like Konohomaru > madara/hashirama, then it's not in anyway a case of you holding my hand through something, it's you lacking proof or an argument to back up your own assertions.  In addition to that, if someone does ask for your reasoning, you do have a burden of proof to show your reasoning, else your point is a baseless one as any assertion based on nothing is baseless.




SesshomaruX2 said:


> I do like to pull double standards.


well, then that's means you've conceded the argument.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Well, then that's bringing up something new: that it's not only having the tool, but its being able to keep up with naruto in his kurama avatar.  But then of course, if you want to say "it happened in the manga" then KN1 Lee solos Edo madara and thus BM Naruto solos him with utter ease let alone BSM Naruto.



Lee never solo'd Madara, but nice try. 




> Well if you are just going to post assertions and logic that would lead you to conclude things like Konohomaru > madara/hashirama, then it's not in anyway a case of you holding my hand through something, it's you lacking proof or an argument to back up your own assertions.  In addition to that, if someone does ask for your reasoning, you do have a burden of proof to show your reasoning, else your point is a baseless one as any assertion based on nothing is baseless.




I don't have the burden of proof to anything as I don't have to anything, you seem to take this to serious and lol. And I see you still think I care whether or not you find something baseless lol. 




> well, then that's means you've conceded the argument.



Nah it still stands.


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## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Lee never solo'd Madara, but nice try.


lee kicked madara in half.  Kicking someone in half =/= soloing?






SesshomaruX2 said:


> I don't have the burden of proof to anything as I don't have to anything, you seem to take this to serious and lol. And I see you still think I care whether or not you find something baseless lol.
> 
> Nah it still stands.


well this pretty much means that you don't want to engage in any kind of logical discussion, as you just want to assert things, but then not back any of your assertions up with any arguments.  It also means that you have no intent in getting into any kind of logical discussion that leads to an increase in knowledge, all you are here to do is cast your vote, and ignore anything that might prove your own stance incorrect.

If that's the kind of mentality that you are forced to assume in order to believe what you do, then it pretty much shows how unsupported your own arguments are.


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> lee kicked madara in half.  Kicking someone in half =/= soloing?



Not unless said kicked person died or got sealed which Madara didn't.







> well this pretty much means that you don't want to engage in any kind of logical discussion, as you just want to assert things, but then not back any of your assertions up with any arguments.  It also means that you have no intent in getting into any kind of logical discussion that leads to an increase in knowledge, all you are here to do is cast your vote, and ignore anything that might prove your own stance incorrect.



Not with wankers of certain characters, which is what you do with Naruto.



> If that's the kind of mentality that you are forced to assume in order to believe what you do, then it pretty much shows how unsupported your own arguments are.



Lol implying I actually care.


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## Aging Boner (Sep 14, 2013)

How is Naruto supposed to even hurt Madara when all of Naruto's attacks involve chakra? which Madara can absorb...


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> Not unless said kicked person died or got sealed which Madara didn't.


which just means that KN1 lee > non edo madara.







SesshomaruX2 said:


> Not with wankers of certain characters, which is what you do with Naruto.


which is another baseless assertion as you've back up your argument with no evidence.




SesshomaruX2 said:


> Lol implying I actually care.


you think i'm arguing in order to change your mind?  You've already proven that anyone attempting to argue with you is like a father attempting to reason with a kid throwing a tantrum.  Fact is there is no intelligent discussion to be had with you as you don't support any of your assertions with any evidence and you are fine with using double standards which demerit any argument that they have to cater to.

Rather than arguing to change your mind, I'm arguing so that people who look at this thread can follow our reasoning and see what arguments are supported or not.




Aging Boner said:


> How is Naruto supposed to even hurt Madara when all of Naruto's attacks involve chakra? which Madara can absorb...


same way itachi hurt nagato with chakra attacks, same way KN1 lee bisected madara, same way Bee hurt samehada, and same way naruto turned preta to stone.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 14, 2013)

I am going with the trio that could pressure fucking current obito. FTG plus giant bijuudamas and rasengans is just the ultimate offense and speed. Emphasis on speed because hashi and madara do not really have a answer for it that works 100%. If they can use ftg tactics on current obito then they will use them on hashi and mads.

The senju and uchiha duo feats are wanked and kinda outdated and i do not see how they win this unless you ignore the oppositions moveset. PS slash? FTG. Forest creations? bijuudamas+bijuu cloaks+ftg for protection. PS defense and buddha? FTG and massive bijuudamas.

Preta path could be troublesome but then BSM comes in and wrecks that. Madara would need amped rinnegan techniques for it to be a true factor in this match. Hashi just do not have the stuff to do in the other team though he can defeat tobirama obviously.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 14, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> I am going with the trio that could pressure fucking current obito. FTG plus giant bijuudamas and rasengans is just the ultimate offense and speed. Emphasis on speed because hashi and madara do not really have a answer for it that works 100%. If they can use ftg tactics on current obito then they will use them on hashi and mads.
> 
> *The senju and uchiha duo feats are wanked and kinda outdated* and i do not see how they win this unless you ignore the oppositions moveset. PS slash? FTG. Forest creations? bijuudamas+bijuu cloaks+ftg for protection. PS defense and buddha? FTG and massive bijuudamas.
> 
> Preta path could be troublesome but then BSM comes in and wrecks that. Madara would need amped rinnegan techniques for it to be a true factor in this match. Hashi just do not have the stuff to do in the other team though he can defeat tobirama obviously.



Definitely agree with the bold. Shodai admitted that Pre-conscience INC Obito was stronger than him. Shodai is way to over wanked.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Sep 14, 2013)

I don't see how these fights have become debatable tbh.

Depending on the strength of the trios (tobirama/naruto/minato)'s yet-to-be-substantiated attacks, they _may_ be able to do things Madara can do in 1 sword slash or Hashirama can do with 1 jutsu. Maybe.

It's dubious if any of their attacks will penetrate the defenses of Hashirama or Madara, and they have a short 5 min or less time limit before they revert to a form that is even more incomparable to Hashi or Mad.

Maybe I rate them way to highly but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think this was a stomp in Team-Fairy-Tail's favor.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 14, 2013)

With the 2 halves of kurama out on the field that can do way more damage than hashi and madara can in one attack lol. That comment knock the wind out of me.

One half of kurama match a attack of equal proportion from 5 bijuu. Logically minato's half of kurama allows for the 5 bijuus feat to be replicated which means the father-son duo can do things like this.
_this_

Naruto with 50% percent of kurama can help bee in BM(a chakra that is not comparable to to 50% kurama which minato has control over) perform this attack _this_.

Add in SM chakra and you get astronomical firepower results compared to the attacks above. Add in tobirama(or minato) FTG and you get above top tier speed. There is no way naruto, minato and tobirama is lacking in anything this match.


----------



## Bonly (Sep 14, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> (although I hacked my bros attack and was post via his account),



Yoooooo what the actual fuck dude!!!!??? Stay off my account or I'll lock the laptop to keep you out off of it.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't see how these fights have become debatable tbh.
> 
> Depending on the strength of the trios (tobirama/naruto/minato)'s yet-to-be-substantiated attacks, they _may_ be able to do things Madara can do in 1 sword slash or Hashirama can do with 1 jutsu. Maybe.


er, BM Naruto has already been outputting attacks magnitudes more powerful than madara's sword slashes.



Lawrence777 said:


> It's dubious if any of their attacks will penetrate the defenses of Hashirama or Madara, and they have a short 5 min or less time limit before they revert to a form that is even more incomparable to Hashi or Mad.


Naruto had an 8 minute time limit 40 chapters ago, he's entered BM 2 times since then.  Penetrate the defenses?  BM Naruto can make bijuudamas as large as PS itself and the power he was dishing out was comparable to the explosion that took PS and shinsuusenjuu's backpack out. 



Lawrence777 said:


> Maybe I rate them way to highly but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think this was a stomp in Team-Fairy-Tail's favor.


I think it's rating team naruto way to lowly.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Sep 14, 2013)

I'm not convinced either of those bijuu damas will penetrate shodai or Mads defenses. Bijuu damas have had lackluster feats. They are depicted as blowing up huge areas and making the ground shake but what have they really done that makes it believable they will destroy PS or Senjutsu enhanced Mokuton?

Hachibi's bijuu dama, which had a direct and concentrated effect on the chest/stomach area of the hachibi, and was for all intents and purposes as piercing as it could possibly be, still failed to do anything amazing or lasting to the hachibi's mid-areas. And I believe hashi and mad are much more durable than that.

In the event those attacks can penetrate their defenses, PS swings still come far faster then they can be charged. Madara can slash 10 times and blow away everything before any meaningful bijuu dama is actually charged.

I mean, if they had Jinton or something, then I can see that beating their defenses. Bijuu dama hasn't destroyed any meaningful defense in a long time. Let's be honest.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

^

FTG or S/T barrier is more than enough to take PS or Buddha away.  the problem has been solved.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Sep 14, 2013)

lol, Minato would kill himself warping those massive constructs away.

edit: _this_
_"Impossible! The Hiraishin I used before and these branches have sucked up all my chakra..."_
While we can't directly determine how much of his chakra loss was attributed to the hiraishin of the shinobi alliance, I think its fair to say Minato will warp the much-larger-than-shinobi alliance mokuton or susanoo and promptly die from chakra exhaustion. Or save them from 1 attack and be obliterated by the next mountain range wide attack.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> lol, Minato would kill himself warping those massive constructs away.
> 
> edit: Super Particle Release
> _"Impossible! The Hiraishin I used before and these branches have sucked up all my chakra..."_
> While we can't directly determine how much of his chakra loss was attributed to the hiraishin of the shinobi alliance, I think its fair to say Minato will warp the much-larger-than-shinobi alliance mokuton or susanoo and promptly die from chakra exhaustion. Or save them from 1 attack and be obliterated by the next mountain range wide attack.



lol, like when he teleported the Juubi's TBB away in base?


- :amazed
Minato was using chakra before that and then he needed to give everyone some of his chakra
(Via Naruto) and then teleport ALL of the  ARMY out. And you forgot the next part that the Juubi 
sucked up his chakra! 

Also, even IF that was the case, who said Hashi can use anther Buddha? 
(like how do you know he has more chakra to do another one?)

Hashi's chakra is a bit larger than the chakra that Naruto had shared with the army
so if anything Hashi's chakra will be dry first.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> I'm not convinced either of those bijuu damas will penetrate shodai or Mads defenses.


well are you convinced that they won't penetrate shodai or Mad's defenses?



Lawrence777 said:


> Bijuu damas have had lackluster feats. They are depicted as blowing up huge areas and making the ground shake but what have they really done that makes it believable they will destroy PS or Senjutsu enhanced Mokuton?
> 
> Hachibi's bijuu dama, which had a direct and concentrated effect on the chest/stomach area of the hachibi, and was for all intents and purposes as piercing as it could possibly be, still failed to do anything amazing or lasting to the hachibi's mid-areas. And I believe hashi and mad are much more durable than that.


Why wouldn't that be a durability feat for the hachibi rather than some kind of downplay on the power of a bijuudama?

Against living targets kishi isn't going to turn the manga into a gorefest which is why the sum total amount of damage the target sustains is going to be representative of the power of the attack.  And did you actually see the hachibi's chest? 

How about feats of bijuudama vs susanoo and bijuudama vs mokuton, the two things that are actually being compared in this thread.



Lawrence777 said:


> In the event those attacks can penetrate their defenses, PS swings still come far faster then they can be charged. Madara can slash 10 times and blow away everything before any meaningful bijuu dama is actually charged.


Kurama already showed that he can fire bijuudamas just as fast as PS can swing, BM Naruto can block the juubi's laserdama with just his tails, so in case he wants to fire a big one (which really doesn't take him any time at all to charge) he blocks those slashes and lets it rip.



Lawrence777 said:


> I mean, if they had Jinton or something, then I can see that beating their defenses. Bijuu dama hasn't destroyed any meaningful defense in a long time. Let's be honest.


that's like saying Piccolo has never beaten anyone meaningful in a long time while Naruto has so Naruto > Piccolo.

You know oonoki's biggest jinton laser?  It cleared only a tiny portion of flower tree world, the entirety of the technique was still remaining.  Meanwhile a normal bijuudama destroys mokujin, mokuryu, and much larger and thicker flower tree world.  A bijuudama is on a completely different level of power than oonoki's jintons.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 14, 2013)

BSM naruto was fodderized by the same branches that even bee managed to avoid. none of the branches that went after naruto are the same size as hashiramas 100% kyuubi comparable branches.

hashirama basically fodderizes naruto in a similar fashion to what happened in the current chapter. he suppresses the kurama avatar.
*refering to the upper left panel*.




he then overwhelms naruto with basic mokuton.



the same goes for minato. he was unable to warp away before his chakra was absorbed. tobirama isnt a factor.

madara can bisect everyone here with PS slashes.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 14, 2013)

Comparing RS Obito's Mokuton to Shodai's 

Shodai's mokuton can't absorb chakra like Obito's btw


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 14, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Comparing RS Obito's Mokuton to Shodai's
> 
> Shodai's mokuton can't absorb chakra like Obito's btw


im pretty sure that the mokuryu has shown the ability to absorb chakra. im pretty sure that the mokujin has also been shown to suppress biju with a single touch.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

looool

giving Juubi's feat to Hashi is stupid. Since Hashirama is a bug compare to juubi. 
Also, if that was the case then Naruto will fodderize Madara in one second as Lee sodderized him before.
and Minato will foddrized Hashi with his speed as mindless obito fodderized him before. 

or they will foddrized them with 4 TBB as obito did with 4 of TBB? 
that's sound stupid because the Juubi's TBB are stronger? Well giving Juubi's wood abilities to Hashi
is just as stupid. lol


----------



## Lawrence777 (Sep 14, 2013)

@ Elia,
My point is, Minato isn't going to just warp away something the size of the empire state building, multiple times, and not feel anything. Kishimoto said he was fatigued, not me. You don't gotta spam me with smileys.

Ueharakk



> assertion: those bijuudamas won't penetrate shodai or madara's defenses.


I make sure I choose my words in a very open ended manner... so it wasn't an assertion. If _you_ want to assert that it _will_ destroy there Elite defenses then you can try to prove it though. I'm just saying I don't know *cough* ain't gonna happen *cough*.



> Why wouldn't that be a durability feat for the hachibi rather than some kind of downplay on the power of a bijuudama?


Do you really believe the hachibi's abdomen is more durable than madara/hashi's defenses or are you just saying that for arguments sake?



> Against living targets kishi isn't going to turn the manga into a gorefest which is why the sum total amount of damage the target sustains is going to be representative of the power of the attack. And did you actually see the hachibi's chest?


Oh please, Kimimaro was breaking his own bones super-gory way back when the manga was actually good. Your second assertion is something you can't really be sure of. We don't know if its representative or not etc. I don't remember the scan of hachibi's chest but I know it didn't leave any lasting damage. On an unarmored target.



> How about feats of bijuudama vs susanoo and bijuudama vs mokuton, the two things that are actually being compared in this thread.


Bijuu dama doesn't compare. I hear alot of assertions that other variants of it will be enough though.



> Kurama already showed that he can fire bijuudamas just as fast as PS can swing, BM Naruto can block the juubi's laserdama with just his tails, so in case he wants to fire a big one (which really doesn't take him any time at all to charge) he blocks those slashes and lets it rip.


Those  base damas won't do anything to Madara or Hashi. The charged one we don't know what it will do( and by "don't know" I'm sure you know I mean probably jackshit to hashi and mad). Madara will slash and disrupt the ground underneath Naruto before he can finish it regardless. He can also engage in melee and probably merc Naruto in cqc with his PS.



> that's like saying Piccolo has never beaten anyone meaningful in a long time while Naruto has so Naruto > Piccolo.


Let me rephrase then. When has bijuu dama ever done anything meaningful to anything meaningful in this entire manga. In all 600 chapters lol.




> You know oonoki's biggest jinton laser? It cleared only a tiny portion of flower tree world, the entirety of the technique was still remaining. Meanwhile a normal bijuudama destroys mokujin, mokuryu, and much larger and thicker flower tree world. A bijuudama is the much stronger of the two techniques.


Apples and Oranges. Jinton cannot be tanked by anything, except perhaps Yata Mirror due to elemental composition. I don't even see how your ascribing jinton's elite feats to bijuu dama which has not really ever destroyed anything of significance.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 14, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im pretty sure that the mokuryu has shown the ability to absorb chakra. im pretty sure that the mokujin has also been shown to suppress biju with a single touch.



manga scans of Mokuton ever absorbing chakra other than when RS is using it


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 14, 2013)

Elia said:


> looool
> 
> giving Juubi's feat to Hashi is stupid. Since Hashirama is a bug compare to juubi.


i never gave the juubis feats to naruto. i said that hashirama can suppress the kurama avatar and fodderize him with basic mokuton and i gave examples of how it would happen.


> Also, if that was the case then Naruto will fodderize Madara in one second as Lee sodderized him before.


madara already fodderized naruto.


> and Minato will foddrized Hashi with his speed as mindless obito fodderized him before.


wood clone.


> or they will foddrized them with 4 TBB as obito did with 4 of TBB?
> that's sound stupid because the Juubi's TBB are stronger?


obito never fodderized them with bijudamas.


> Well giving Juubi's wood abilities to Hashi is just as stupid. lol


too bad i didnt do that. hashiramas mokuton can absorb biju chakra. the branches that naruto got fodderized by arent anywhere near as big as the flower world.


----------



## Tsunami (Sep 14, 2013)

God of Shinobi > Everyone


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 14, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> manga scans of Mokuton ever absorbing chakra other than when RS is using it


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 14, 2013)

I was talking about non Bijuu chakra but ok. Looking back at the 5 Kages vs Madara and his Mokuton did not absorb any chakra there.

We knew Mokuton suppressed Bijuu chakra back when Yamato was around


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 14, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> I was talking about non Bijuu chakra but ok. Looking back at the 5 Kages vs Madara and his Mokuton did not absorb any chakra there.
> 
> We knew Mokuton suppressed Bijuu chakra back when Yamato was around


i was talking about biju chakra since that is what naruto uses and that is basically the only thing relevant.

we already saw naruto get overwhelmed by basic branches that arent anywhere near as big as the ones we have seen hashirama make. after naruto gets the kurama avatar stripped from him, just replace him getting his KM cloak absorbed with him getting put to sleep by pollen.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 14, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> I make sure I choose my words in a very open ended manner... so it wasn't an assertion. If _you_ want to assert that it _will_ destroy there Elite defenses then you can try to prove it though. I'm just saying I don't know *cough* ain't gonna happen *cough*.


well if you're not asserting anything then there's no reason to discuss because anyone can be as skeptical towards a position as they want and find the position non-convincing no matter how compelling the position is.

In addition to that, a position might not even be compelling, however it still might be more supported than the alternative and thus for the time being should be accepted as the most plausible answer.



Lawrence777 said:


> Do you really believe the hachibi's abdomen is more durable than madara/hashi's defenses or are you just saying that for arguments sake?
> 
> Oh please, Kimimaro was breaking his own bones super-gory way back when the manga was actually good.


exactly, back in part 1 kishi would have people get their heads cut off and get juiced by gaara's sand.  But that's more than 400 chapters and 8 years of writing, kishi is now much much more conservative about drawing gore.



Lawrence777 said:


> Your second assertion is something you can't really be sure of. We don't know if its representative or not etc. I don't remember the scan of hachibi's chest but I know it didn't leave any lasting damage. On an unarmored target.


we wouldn't expect lasting damage as the hachibi like kurama regenerates quickly, that's why his horn stab he received from gobi was almost completely healed by the time naruto lost BM.



Lawrence777 said:


> Bijuu dama doesn't compare. I hear alot of assertions that other variants of it will be enough though.


this is just an assertion.  Unless you back it up with an argument, it's baseless.



Lawrence777 said:


> Those  base damas won't do anything to Madara or Hashi. The charged one we don't know what it will do( and by "don't know" I'm sure you know I mean probably jackshit to hashi and mad). Madara will slash and disrupt the ground underneath Naruto before he can finish it regardless. He can also engage in melee and probably merc Naruto in cqc with his PS.


Again, you baselessly assert that the base dama's won't do anything to madara or hashi without showing any of their feats against bijuudamas.

The charge time for Naruto's super dama is very quick destroying the ground beneath naruto won't disrupt the attack, I don't know of any time a bijuudama was disrupted from such a thing and why would the ground beneath naruto get destroyed if he's blocking the slash with his tails? 



Lawrence777 said:


> Let me rephrase then. When has bijuu dama ever done anything meaningful to anything meaningful in this entire manga. In all 600 chapters lol.


How about destroy mokujin, mokuryu and a giant flower tree world, while PS can't even defeat or even damage a single mokujin 1 vs 1.

How about a tiny KN4 bijuudama obliterating 3 rashoumon gates, damaging orochimaru and carving out the land behind it?

How about destroy chibaku tensei?  How about being compared to the power of a PS slash?  Oh btw, what about a PS slash?  What has that ever done to anything meaningful? 



Lawrence777 said:


> Apples and Oranges. *Jinton cannot be tanked by anything, except perhaps Yata Mirror due to elemental composition.* I don't even see how your ascribing jinton's elite feats to bijuu dama which has not really ever destroyed anything of significance.


What is the bolded based on?  And heck, what's apples and oranges based on?

And i've just showed you why we would not only give bijuudama jinton's feats, but give it massively greater feats than jinton since it's massively more powerful than jinton.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 14, 2013)

> =Shinobi no Kami;48447709]i never gave the juubis feats to naruto. i said that hashirama can suppress the kurama avatar and fodderize him with basic mokuton and i gave examples of how it would happen.



Yes, you did not give them to Naruto, but to Hashi. 
and your examples are wrong because only the Dragon can absorbed the chakra
as far as we know. Or do you think Naruto also can fodderized Hashi by one punch
and turn him into tree as he did with Zetsu? 


> madara already fodderized naruto.


Never happened, Madara got foddrized by a small part of Naruto's chakra that he gave to lee.


> wood clone.


it does not matter he admitted that he's weaker! 


> obito never fodderized them with bijudamas.


yes, he did 
Super Particle Release
Hashi inside the barrier with SM, and after he got foddrized 
Super Particle Release
no more SM. 


> too bad i didnt do that. hashiramas mokuton can absorb biju chakra. the branches that naruto got fodderized by arent anywhere near as big as the flower world.


yes, you did. 

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL how the hell is this 
Super Particle Release
"arent anywhere near as big as the flower world"

I assume that your bullshiting around or you are a troll. 
+
that flower world does not absorbed the chakra, unless you can prove that of course.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 15, 2013)

Elia said:


> Yes, you did not give them to Naruto, but to Hashi.
> and your examples are wrong because only the Dragon can absorbed the chakra
> as far as we know. Or do you think Naruto also can fodderized Hashi by one punch
> and turn him into tree as he did with Zetsu?


i said that the dragon would take away the kurama avatar then naruto would be put to sleep by the flower word. i said nothing about suppression after the kurama avatar is subdued. why would hashirama be turned into a tree?


> Never happened, Madara got foddrized by a small part of Naruto's chakra that he gave to lee.


madara fodderized naruto. whats your point? according to your logic, the scaling is lee>madara>naruto. its fine if you want to believe that.


> it does not matter he admitted that he's weaker!


being weaker than someone=/=getting fodderized by that person.


> yes, he did
> Super Particle Release
> Hashi inside the barrier with SM, and after he got foddrized
> Super Particle Release
> no more SM.


so it couldnt be because his chakra got absorbed by the tree god? his SM was never shown to be gone before the tree god absorbed his chakra, so you are wrong as usual.


> yes, you did.
> 
> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL how the hell is this
> Super Particle Release
> "arent anywhere near as big as the flower world"


its a shame that all of that wasnt needed to subdue naruto. only a few human sized branches were necessary to defeat him.


> I assume that your bullshiting around or you are a troll.
> +
> *that flower world does not absorbed the chakra, unless you can prove that of course. *


i never claimed the bold. the flower world puts him to sleep after the kurama avatar is absorbed.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 15, 2013)

> =Shinobi no Kami;48447887]i said that the dragon would take away the kurama avatar then naruto would be put to sleep by the flower word. i said nothing about suppression after the kurama avatar is subdued. why would hashirama be turned into a tree?



just because Naruto fell to that one time that does not mean he will every time! 
+ he has senjutsu now with his BM.

because Naruto make his cells turn to a tree as he did to Zetsu? 


> madara fodderized naruto. whats your point? according to your logic, the scaling is lee>madara>naruto. its fine if you want to believe that.



when did madara fodderized Naruto in the first place? 
other than the Juubi no one managed to do anything to BM Naruto. 


> being weaker than someone=/=getting fodderized by that person.


except obito indeed foddrized both of them. 


> so it couldnt be because his chakra got absorbed by the tree god? his SM was never shown to be gone before the tree god absorbed his chakra, so you are wrong as usual.


No it couldn't be. As a matter of fact even Madara stated that they will be destroyed. 
Super Particle Release
and since Hashi was dodging the trees so it can't be the reason for that! 

and are you trying to say that they "magically" survived the 4 TBBs?  


> its a shame that all of that wasnt needed to subdue naruto. only a few human sized branches were necessary to defeat him.


it's a shame that Naruto's EْHِِAUSTED CLONE was able to defeat Hashi's jutsu. lol 



> i never claimed the bold. the flower world puts him to sleep after the kurama avatar is absorbed


.
Good, but unfortunately, that jutsu will be blown away or teleported a way. 
or perhaps another one of Naruto's EْHِِAUSTED clones in BASE will be more than enough to
do so.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 15, 2013)

Elia said:


> just because Naruto fell to that one time that does not mean he will every time!
> + he has senjutsu now with his BM.


extra marking on kuramas face wont prevent the mokuryu from subduing it.


> because Naruto make his cells turn to a tree as he did to Zetsu?


zetsu is a plant. hashirama isnt. naruto didnt even make the hashirama replica on madaras chest turn into a tree.



> when did madara fodderized Naruto in the first place?
> other than the Juubi no one managed to do anything to BM Naruto.


naruto couldnt deal any damage.
kurama was fodderized.
he needed to be saved by gai.


> except obito indeed foddrized both of them.


what instance are you referring to?


> No it couldn't be. As a matter of fact even Madara stated that they will be destroyed.
> Super Particle Release


he said that as edos, they had nothing to worry about, so even if the tbbs destroyed them which they didnt, they wouldnt be affected.


> and since Hashi was dodging the trees so it can't be the reason for that!


the trees dont need to touch you to absorb your chakra.


> and are you trying to say that they "magically" survived the 4 TBBs?


no, im saying that they tanked them, since they were never shown to be destroyed and if you do think that they were destroyed, you would have to agree that madaras fan has rikudo sennin level power and durability.


> it's a shame that Naruto's EْHِِAUSTED CLONE was able to defeat Hashi's jutsu. lol


jukai koutan through madara whos version is different than hashiramas by feats.
.


> Good, but unfortunately, that jutsu will be blown away or teleported a way.
> or perhaps another one of Naruto's EْHِِAUSTED clones in BASE will be more than enough to
> do so.


the same way naruto or minato blew away or teleported the tiny sticks that were fodderizing them right?


----------



## Trojan (Sep 15, 2013)

> =Shinobi no Kami;48448075]extra marking on kuramas face wont prevent the mokuryu from subduing it.


One Rasengan is more than enough. 


> zetsu is a plant. hashirama isnt. naruto didnt even make the hashirama replica on madaras chest turn into a tree.


because he did not attack Hashi's face on madara chest? 


> naruto couldnt deal any damage.
> kurama was fodderized.
> he needed to be saved by gai.



you know that Naruto can stop Susanoo's sword with his arm as he did to the first one, right? 


> what instance are you referring to?


the TBBs. 


> he said that as edos, they had nothing to worry about, so even if the tbbs destroyed them which they didnt, they wouldnt be affected.


yes, and that what happened. 


> the trees dont need to touch you to absorb your chakra.


then why it  touched everyone else? it's either that or it should be REALLY close to you. 


> no, im saying that they tanked them, since they were never shown to be destroyed and if you do think that they were destroyed, you would have to agree that madaras fan has rikudo sennin level power and durability.


lol, how the hell did they do that when both PS and the Himan wood were COMPLETELY destroyed? Not to mention the marks in madara's face and armor. 




> madaras fan has rikudo sennin level power and durability.


Give me a break. Please.  
So, by your fantastic logic you also have to agree that the rocks are more durable and have
more power than PS and Human & Dragon wood because they still exist 
Super Particle Release
as proven there the rocks are sill there. So, and since Naruto's arm is stronger than rocks
Super Particle Release
so you have to agree that Naruto's chakra arm > rocks > 4 TBBs > PS & human wood. 

fair enough?  


> jukai koutan through madara whos version is different than hashiramas by feats.


.yes, by feats Madara's version is stronger. 


> the same way naruto or minato blew away or teleported the tiny sticks that were fodderizing them right?


This tiny sticks is larger than any thing Madara & Hashi has ever shown. 
and again Juubi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madara AND Hashi at the same time. 

it seems to me that you can't prove what they can do by their feats so you gave  them
Juubi's feat to make them look good. :rofl:rofl
or ealse you wouldn't have to use cheap ways like this and give them someone else's feats.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 15, 2013)

Elia said:


> One Rasengan is more than enough.


just like one rasengan was enough in the manga? yeah right, cut the BS.


> because he did not attack Hashi's face on madara chest?


only close proximity is needed to get a reaction from mokuton.



> you know that Naruto can stop Susanoo's arm with his arm as he did to the first one, right?


then he wouldve done this instead of being saved by gai.


> the TBBs.


the ones that didnt destroy hashirama and madara.


> yes, and that what happened.


you cant prove it with panel.


> then why it  touched everyone else? it's either that or it should be REALLY close to you.


so it doesnt need to touch you to absorb chakra. thats all there is to it. no excuses are necessary.


> lol, how the hell did they do that when both PS and the Himan wood were COMPLETELY destroyed? Not to mention the marks in madara's face and armor.


marks like that have been shown on edos even when they havent been damaged yet. madara has the same marks in the recent chapter. does that mean he is still regenerating?


> Give me a break. Please.
> So, by your fantastic logic you also have to agree that the rocks are more durable and have
> more power than PS and Human & Dragon wood because they still exist
> Super Particle Release


LMAO, what kind of nonsense is this? thats just rubble left on the battlefield after the explosion. both hashirama and madara have wood construct remains and diminished susano repectively which shows that the juubidama didnt obliterate them.


> as proven there the rocks are sill there. So, and since Naruto's arm is stronger than rocks
> Super Particle Release
> so you have to agree that Naruto's chakra arm > rocks > 4 TBBs > PS & human wood.
> 
> fair enough?


your exmaple made zero sense. bijudama being used wouldnt make rocks cease to exist. 90% of the earths surface is made of rock so explain how bijudama would obliterate every single ounce of rock.
.





> yes, by feats Madara's version is stronger.


i dont know where you got this from. they are equal in power except hashiramas version grows straight up instead of traveling at you.


> This tiny sticks is larger than any thing Madara & Hashi has ever shown.
> and again Juubi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madara AND Hashi at the same time.


so the same branches that were wrapping around peoples body multiple times are bigger than hashiramas kyuubi sized branches?


> it seems to me that you can't prove what they can do by their feats so you gave him them
> Juubi's feat to make them look good. :rofl:rofl
> or ealse you wouldn't have to use cheap ways like this and give them someone else's feats.


i didnt hand hashirama any of juubitos feats. did i say that hashirama would summon the god tree?
i said that his mokuton would absorb the kyuubis chakra since it already did so and then he would put naruto to sleep.


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## Trojan (Sep 15, 2013)

> =Shinobi no Kami;48448350]just like one rasengan was enough in the manga? yeah right, cut the BS.


lol, their Rasengan destroyed obito's chalra arm which was enough to destroy the Hokage's
barrier. and even obito's jinton like (I don't know what to name it) was effected by the Rasengan
Super Particle Release


> only close proximity is needed to get a reaction from mokuton.


True. 


> then he wouldve done this instead of being saved by gai.


even if it hit him, it wouldn't be able to do anything to him in the first place. 
and Naruto did not ask for help anyway. 





> the ones that didnt destroy hashirama and madara.


lol, your fanboyism is great indeed, I'll give you credit for that. you can never admit
anything against them, you are a rival of Itachi's fans now! 


> you cant prove it with panel.


I already did. 


> so it doesnt need to touch you to absorb chakra. thats all there is to it. no excuses are necessary.


except it did not absorbed Hashi's chakra or we would have seen that
Super Particle Release
it only came to them in that panel, we saw Madara's chakra being absorbed, but not Hashi.





> marks like that have been shown on edos even when they havent been damaged yet. madara has the same marks in the recent chapter. does that mean he is still regenerating?


LOL
Super Particle Release
Super Particle Release

it appeared when Madara fodderized himself. 

when Lee fodderized Madara
Super Particle Release

and when obito fodderized him as well. 


> LMAO, what kind of nonsense is this? thats just rubble left on the battlefield after the explosion. both hashirama and madara have wood construct remains and diminished susano repectively which shows that the juubidama didnt obliterate them.



it's the same nonsense that you were saying to me to make your point seem logical by saying
such ridiculous thing about that fan. 


> your exmaple made zero sense. bijudama being used wouldnt make rocks cease to exist. 90% of the earths surface is made of rock so explain how bijudama would obliterate every single ounce of rock.


.it did not even make a hole. 


> i dont know where you got this from. they are equal in power except hashiramas version grows straight up instead of traveling at you.


look at Hashi Vs Hiruzen
Madara Vs Naruto's exhausted clone in base. 


> so the same branches that were wrapping around peoples body multiple times are bigger than hashiramas kyuubi sized branches?


lol, except Naruto & Minato were in the center of all of that mess 
even B was attacked by more branches  than Hashirama.  


> i didnt hand hashirama any of juubitos feats. did i say that hashirama would summon the god tree?
> i said that his mokuton would absorb the kyuubis chakra since it already did so and then he would put naruto to sleep.


the only thing that absorbed chakra is his Dragon, and not even near to how fast the Juubi's branches were. Also, Naruto already know about that Dragon now, and Minato can teleport it
away. saying why Minato did not teleport the Juubi's branches is ridiculous because they were
a billion time larger than Hashi's dragon.  

anyway, I'm getting tired just forget it.


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## Rain (Sep 15, 2013)

Madara dominates.


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## Lawrence777 (Sep 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> well if you're not asserting anything then there's no reason to discuss because anyone can be as skeptical towards a position as they want and find the position non-convincing no matter how compelling the position is.
> 
> In addition to that, a position might not even be compelling, however it still might be more supported than the alternative and thus for the time being should be accepted as the most plausible answer.


How is your position more supported than my alternative? I'm willing to see evidence and won't auto-disagree with anything.

Also, obviously no one can 100% prove anything not drawn in the NBD, and asking someone to do so is an impossible criteria. so I'm not going to put myself in a situation where I have to prove anything. So, I'll just imply everything I mean instead.

e





> xactly, back in part 1 kishi would have people get their heads cut off and get juiced by gaara's sand.  But that's more than 400 chapters and 8 years of writing, kishi is now much much more conservative about drawing gore.


I concede this point. probably right here. But then again young tobi and madara vs tsunade were both pretty gruesome. but I digress I don't know how much longer ill post anyway so dropping this one.



> we wouldn't expect lasting damage as the hachibi like kurama regenerates quickly, that's why his horn stab he received from gobi was almost completely healed by the time naruto lost BM.


 No lasting damage is fine. Why couldn't it even penetrate deep into his chest? Am I suppose to believe that level of fire power will defeat Shodai level defenses and Mads.




> this is just an assertion.  Unless you back it up with an argument, it's baseless.
> 
> 
> Again, you baselessly assert that the base dama's won't do anything to madara or hashi without showing any of their feats against bijuudamas.


Uerharakk, Madara and Hashi have already survived biju dama barrages. Remember when hashi and mad went head to head and both got caught in the blast of the dama barrage + shinsuugen and they both survived the aoe with their abilities? 



> The charge time for Naruto's super dama is very quick destroying the ground beneath naruto won't disrupt the attack, I don't know of any time a bijuudama was disrupted from such a thing and why would the ground beneath naruto get destroyed if he's blocking the slash with his tails?


Ok I know which one your talking about. Madara may not be able to interrupt that one. Regardless, we don't know if such a quick barely-charged one will penetrate their defenses.

Also, strength feats to suggest Naruto will block a PS sword and not be sent flying? Then there is also the fact Mokuton constructs will be double and triple teaming Naruto.



> How about* destroy mokujin, mokuryu and a giant flower tree world*, while PS can't even defeat or even damage a single mokujin 1 vs 1.


wait wait wait, can I get a scan for when a bijuu dama destroyed this stuff? 



> How about destroy chibaku tensei?  How about being compared to the power of a PS slash?  Oh btw, what about a PS slash?  What has that ever done to anything meaningful?


Well you helped me out PS is comparable to a bijuu. and Bijuu attacks, as we have seen, don't get through shodai/mads level defenses.



> What is the bolded based on?  And heck, what's apples and oranges based on?


Assuming Yata can change its properties to the appropriate counter-dust elements as it was stated to be capable of. Apple and Oranges as in bijuu dama does limited damage to a wide area where as jinton hits a small area but obliterates what it does hit completely. Its like comparing a nuke to something with all the power of the nuke focused in a small area instead.



> And i've just showed you why we would not only give bijuudama jinton's feats, but give it massively greater feats than jinton since it's massively more powerful than jinton.


I completely disagree, Naruto's bijuu dama don't do damage in the way jinton does damage. Reference the point above this one. Also, just assume ahead of time I put a "Probably" or "most likely" near anything your going to claim I need to 100% prove.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 15, 2013)

Lol, Minato teleports Buddha and PS away while Tobirama or Naruto solos.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 15, 2013)

If Madara and Hashirama are not regenerating because of Juubito's new power, then there is absolutely nothing that is going to kill them that Naruto has. They just tanked four Juubidamas encased in a barrier at the loss of only Perfect Susano'o and the Mokujin (maybe he used Shinsuusenju to block it, who knows). 

And that doesn't mean they can't put back up their techniques. They both seem fine and are physically able to dodge the Shinju branches with ease and cut them down. 

A normal Bijudama isn't doing jack shit to Mokujin. It already caught a Bijudama from 100% Kurama and smashed it back to unformed Perfect Susano'o like a Rasengan. Oh, and that unformed Perfect Susano'o tanked it no problem. 

If Naruto charges a Flash Bijudama, it can be interrupted by a Sword-Shuriken, or multiple. Whatever you prefer. Then it will explode in his/their face(s). 

Oh and yes, if Naruto gets hit before his Bijudama is fully formed, this will happen:



LMFAO at Tobirama beating Hashirama btw. That is laughable. Is this a Hashirama hate fest, trying to downplay his speed and his power?


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## Dominus (Sep 15, 2013)

SesshomaruX2 said:


> That's right and Madara isn't beating these three so team one wins.



You obviously don't know how the match-ups in the Battledome work... it doesn't matter if friends/siblings/father and son etc. are in opposite teams, they will fight... even if they would never fight in the manga.


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