# Itachi Uchiha vs Jiraiya



## Troyse22 (Jan 17, 2017)

vs



Location: Forest of death
Knowledge: Manga
Distance: 25m
Restrictions: None
Stipulations/Notes: Itachi is healthy
Jiraiya starts in base

My opinion: I lean toward Itachi in this battle. Jiraiya has little-no knowledge on Sharingan or its Genjutsu and has no genjutsu resistance feats. However there are those who truly believe Jiraiya can take Itachi down, and I want to hear how he goes about it.


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## Android (Jan 17, 2017)

Crap-storm alert coming ..........

Anyway Jiraiya wins as pre canon , with one of his most basic techniques he was close to killing both him and Kisame , needing the MS to escape .
As much as Itachi's fans and supporters don't like it , both DB and manga have Jman as >= to Itachi .
No amount of tears can change that .

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 17, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> Crap-storm alert coming ..........
> 
> Anyway Jiraiya wins as pre canon , with one of his most basic techniques he was close to killing both him and Kisame , needing the MS to escape .
> As much as Itachi's fans and supporters don't like it , both DB and manga have Jman as >= to Itachi .
> No amount of tears can change that .



How does Jiraiya answer genjutsu?

Itachi also had no killing intent against Jiraiya there, his goal was to capture Naruto, and he even said he didn't feel the need to rush it.


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## Android (Jan 17, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> How does Jiraiya answer genjutsu?


Sensing barrier , shadow clones , shadow manipulation technique , blocking LoS .
No what's Itachi's answer to audio Genjutsu ?? cuz last i checked , it kicked his butt in the manga .
Talking about Genjutsu ain't gonna do you good since Itachi is the one who got trolled by audio genjutsu while Jiraiya has never fall for any visual genjutsu in the manga 
Jiraiya has SM , superior Taijutsu , superior Ninjutsu , more elements , sensing , more AoE and range .
And a better portrayal 
He fucking killed Pain's Summons w/o using his hands lol .


Troyse22 said:


> Itachi also had no killing intent against Jiraiya there, his goal was to capture Naruto, and he even said he didn't feel the need to rush it.


> Insert manga scan of Itachi admitting Jiraiya was stronger .
Inb4 hurr durr retconned .
This'll be my last reply here

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 4


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 17, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> How does Jiraiya answer genjutsu?





cctr9 said:


> Sensing barrier , shadow clones , shadow manipulation technique , blocking LoS .


And anything thats not Tsukuyomi is neg diffed by the toad sages who could merely kai Jman out of it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Parallaxis (Jan 17, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And anything thats not Tsukuyomi is neg diffed by the toad sages who could merely kai Jman out of it.


He could also genjutsu the toad sages. Since they have a habit of looking into people eyes (they looked into Pain's eyes and said he had the rinnegan)

OT:
Is a close match, I'd probably stick with them being more or less equals as per canon.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 17, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> He could also genjutsu the toad sages. Since they have a habit of looking into people eyes (they looked into Pain's eyes and said he had the rinnegan)


Itachi isnt making eye contact with and putting 3 people in a genjutsu before they break each other out of one.

Its not like they are gonna go nose to nose with itachi and stand in line waiting to be genjutsued either.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 17, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Itachi isnt making eye contact with and putting 3 people in a genjutsu before they break each other out of one.


No, but you are making the assumption that Jiraiya starts in SM with the sage toads which has not been clarified by the OP.



> Its not like they are gonna go nose to nose with itachi and stand in line waiting to be genjutsued either.


He can also force eye contact.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 17, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> No, but you are making the assumption that Jiraiya starts in SM with the sage toads which has not been clarified by the OP.



Edited OP


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 17, 2017)

Sick Itachi wins. I personally believe the fandom overrates SM Jiraiya's reactions despite lacking coherent explanation as to why that is. Realistically, Jiraiya isn't winning under these skewed conditions where Boss Summons are his only ticket to Sage Mode. The results of this match are spurious honestly.

Let the chaos commence.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Suoh (Jan 17, 2017)

Why do people rehash the same thread. Jiraiya should have a fairly easy time of entering Sage Mode given the location, but it also benefits Itachi's clone feints. Jiraiya eventually forces Itachi to go MS, where Itachi has the advantage imo. Itachi high diff


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## Troyse22 (Jan 17, 2017)

Honestly, I haven't seen this thread in a looooooooooong time, unless I missed it in the past week or so?

I've seen the topic come up in passing in seperate threads, but not an actual thread for this in a long time.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 17, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Sick Itachi wins.



How?


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## ARGUS (Jan 17, 2017)

Itachi mid diffs him

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rai (Jan 17, 2017)

Itachi solos


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 17, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> How?



It's not necessary. The only way to cease contention is if we were to understand the extent of Jiraiya's Sage Sensing because that's the crux of the matter to begin with. The only way this is possible is if I were given a coherent explanation as to how potent Jiraiya's Sage Sensing is and how it would be * instrumentally*, not intrinsically good against Itachi. Without that, every argument I'd present here would be fruitless.


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## Gohara (Jan 17, 2017)

Itachi wins with mid to high difficulty IMO.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 18, 2017)

Base Jiraiya is clearly inferior. Sage Jiraiya has controllable summons vulnerable to genjutsu. It's a lose-lose for him.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 18, 2017)

Done to death already.

No answer to Tsukuyomi or Amateratsu.

Close range gets negged by Susano hand grab that outpaced Minato.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 3


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## Infernal Imp (Jan 18, 2017)

Itachi wins. Jiraiya has no genjutsu resistance (taught Naruto a way that got negged by a 30% clone of Itachi and finger genjutsu) so he'll have to fight the battle without looking Itachi in the eyes since his sharingan is always active. Since he doesn't start in sage mode, there's no "LOL blitz" going on here either.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 18, 2017)

Only because I miss @IzayaOrihara --Yomi Numa GG

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## t0xeus (Jan 18, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Only because I miss @IzayaOrihara --Yomi Numa GG


I know how you feel bro, I feel the same.. It's just not it without Izaya here but we gotta cope with it

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 18, 2017)

t0xeus said:


> I know how you feel bro, I feel the same.. It's just not it without Izaya here but we gotta cope with it


Yea it'll be okay as long as we stick together

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Mithos (Jan 18, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Sage Jiraiya has controllable summons vulnerable to genjutsu. It's a lose-lose for him.



Having superior numbers has been canonically stated to counter the Sharingan. Itachi cannot genjutsu every summon and defend himself at the same time.

Jiraiya, or Ma and Pa if they're brought out, can snap summons out of genjutsu. Hell, some toads have been shown using ninjutsu, so I don't see why the Gama trio couldn't use genjutsu: kai on each other if one of them was under an illusion. Or Jiraiya can simply de-summon them to prevent them from causing too many problems.

If Itachi wins it's not because he could genjutsu Jiraiya's summons.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2017)

Mithos said:


> Hell, some toads have been shown using ninjutsu, so I don't see why the Gama trio couldn't use genjutsu:




Holy reaching.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Holy reaching.


What is unrealistic about one of the GamaToad breaking another out of genjutsu?


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## Mithos (Jan 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Holy reaching.



Why?

Genjutsu: Kai is not a difficult technique. And I'm not saying the toads use it on themselves - just each other. How hard can it be to inject chakra into someone else? Gamabunta can use water style jutsu, and Gamakichi can even use sage ninjutsu, so we know they don't have problems molding chakra.

There's a reason numbers counter the Sharingan: It's easy to snap a teammate out of an illusion when there are superior numbers to create distractions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 18, 2017)

Just waiting to hear that its OOC for Jiraiya to summon, or Itachi puts Jiraiya+his clones+all of his summonings in genjutsu.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 18, 2017)

Mithos said:


> Having superior numbers has been canonically stated to counter the Sharingan. Itachi cannot genjutsu every summon and defend himself at the same time.
> 
> Jiraiya, or Ma and Pa if they're brought out, can snap summons out of genjutsu. Hell, some toads have been shown using ninjutsu, so I don't see why the Gama trio couldn't use genjutsu: kai on each other if one of them was under an illusion. Or Jiraiya can simply de-summon them to prevent them from causing too many problems.
> 
> If Itachi wins it's not because he could genjutsu Jiraiya's summons.



 I would agree except the Toads are incapable of dealing with Itachi's elusive speed and in order to even remotely have a chance against Itachi, they're going to have to utilize a combined assault as they did against Pain which leaves them susceptible to the Sharingan. Amaterasu and even Shurikeninjutsu to the eyes would suffice in dismantling them.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I would agree except the Toads are incapable of dealing with Itachi's elusive speed



Wrong, read your quote in my sig.

Itachi cannot prevail with speed, only Minato can


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Wrong, read your quote in my sig.
> 
> Itachi cannot prevail with speed, only Minato can



 I see. I cannot deny my own proclamation. I graciously concede.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> What is unrealistic about one of the GamaToad breaking another out of genjutsu?



This is just between us two - don't even want to imagine what he's leaving with people he doesn't consider "NBD Trash"


Kisame vs Pein Rikudo. *Am having a debate with @The Death & The Strawberry when I can get some time off of work*
Kisame vs Minato (Alive) *The debate was crashed by genetically weak scum, I never conceded the topic, in fact, I think it was Profs turn to comment*
Kisame vs Tobirama (Alive) *I don't recall debating this*
Kisame vs Killer Bee (unrestricted) *I've addressed this multiple times wtf?*
Kisame vs Tsunade *Addressed this, just not in our PM*
Kisame vs Orochimaru *Addressed this, just not in our PM*
Kisame vs Itachi (Alive) *Made an entire thread dedicated to the topic, although now that I think about it, I should check if anyones left any other messages*
Aoda vs Manda *I still maintain Aoda is faster and more reflexive than Manda, however as to who wins a 1v1 is unclear*
____________________

Chakra Enhanced Strength vs Samehada *Addressed this. Samehada has canonically absorbed Chakra directly out of Eight Tails sealed inside of Bee, can do the same to CES*
Kisames Waterdome can float in the air / Kisame can fly *I'm still unclear on the Waterdome floating thing, however I no longer use that in my debates. If the chakra and water revolves and gravitates toward Kisame, logic dictates if Kisame swims up, the Waterdome will follow.*
Kisame can escape the AOE of Chibaku Tensei *If Underwater yes*
Kisame can tank CST *Kisame survived Hirudora, he can survive the very overrated CST, that canonically didn't kill any respectable shinobi in Konoha*
Kisame can match Killer Bee, KCM Naruto & Edo Tensei Itachi in CQC -- its one thing to claim he'd defeat such a trio but to say that he would overpower them in CQC????? *I said he'd overpower them in CQC?*
Kisame can react to FTG *Bee reacted to FTG, Kisame reacted to Bee, logic dictates he can react to FTG*
Kisame will kill Orochimaru with Water Prison *Can't weave signs if Kisame is uses Suiton clones to reinforce the Water Prison, as explained by @Sapherosth *
Kisame can shake off Tsunades CES punch to the face / he is almost equal to Tsunade in strength *Bijuu like strength.*
Samehada can absorb KCM Narutos FRS / Samehada can absorb Amaterasu *That's right.*
Samehada is "ridiculously heavy" *Yup*
Minato was never considered as a child of prophecy *Jiraiya seemed certain that Nagato was and then Naruto, he never seemed 1000% sure like he did with sibling students, of course, that's just my opinion*
Samehada increases Kisames durability <<<  *I don't recall explicitly stating this, but I can't see why not, Samehada itself is incredibly durable, merged with Kisame, Kisame should inherit some of its durability*
Kisame tanked full powered + killing intent Hirudora *That's right*
If Tsunade and Kisame met fist to fist they would go flying an equal distance *Yup*
Aoda is faster than Manda *Yup*
Aoda could have escaped the AOE of C0 "guaranteed" *If he burrowed underground. If it was the same situation as the one Sasuke was in, it won't happen*
Kisame can one-shot Uchiha Madara with Hashi Cells + Rinnegan *@PhantomSage actually forced a concession out of me with that. Preta deals with Daikodan. However Daikodan will still shred Susanoo*
Daikodan > Indras Arrow *Daikodan without absorbing chakra is weaker than Indra's arrow, however Daikodan can absorb Indra's arrow, and since Daikodan grows stronger in proportion to the jutsu it absorbs, it becomes stronger than Indra's Arrow*
@HandfullofNaruto your sig is amusing.

Your laughable attempt at calling me out is gone, i've addressed everything here multiple times, and i've done it yet again.

Keep your sig by all means, but it's baseless horseshit, just like the majority of your arguments

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Your laughable attempt at calling me out is gone, *i've addressed everything here multiple times, and i've done it yet again.
> 
> Keep your sig by all means, but it's baseless horseshit, just like the majority of your arguments*




Is that why hes one of the trash of the NBD?


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Is that why hes one of the trash of the NBD?


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I think it was Profs turn to comment


I want a line to line type rebuttal not replying on minato cannot Decapicate kisame 
If kisames wind pipe is gone he is dead . why do you think ninja point their Kunais to neck for killing and we did see minato killing IWA ninja with a kunai


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2017)

professor83 said:


> I want a line to line type rebuttal not replying on minato cannot Decapicate kisame
> If kisames wind pipe is gone he is dead . why do you think ninja point their Kunais to neck for killing and we did see minato killing IWA ninja with a kunai



Anything short of complete decapitation Kisame can regenerate from.

We've seen him regenerate vital organs and bones.

Minato cannot decapitate Kisame, he does not have the strength feats or hype to suggest he can cut through solid bone with a regular old Kunai.

Get real


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Anything short of complete decapitation Kisame can regenerate from


Kisame cannot regenerate unless same had a provides him chakra. The chakra same had a won't get against minato


Troyse22 said:


> Minato cannot decapitate Kisame, he does not have the strength feats or hype to suggest he can cut through solid bone with a regular old Kunai.


Minato kills Iwa ninja with a Kunai
Bee thought he had to save Ay even with lighting armour ,Cuts through hachibis tail
Every ninja point their kunai in the  opponents neck to kill .why?


Troyse22 said:


> Bee reacted to FTG, Kisame reacted to Bee, logic dictates he can react to FTG


Minato had absolute no KI. He verbally announced his arrival "He was not even surprised . Did e say oh you reacted to my gtg and was their any element of surprise in minato"
When the time minato destroyed obito more reflexive guy than kisame .
Kisame never reacted to bee it was samehada that moved forward kisame had his chest apart. I am sure sb explained that last time.


Troyse22 said:


> Minato was never considered as a child of prophecy *Jiraiya seemed certain that Nagato was and then Naruto, he never seemed 1000% sure like he did with sibling students, of course, that's just my opinion*


Mangaka opinion>your opinion


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## Serene Grace (Jan 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame can tank CST *Kisame survived Hirudora, he can survive the very overrated CST, that canonically didn't kill any respectable shinobi in Konoha*


Hmm didn't katsuyu save them for being destroyed? It completely destroyed the village, has Kisame shown any feats to suggest he tanks that? Hmm, I wonder.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Kisame cannot regenerate unless same had a provides him chakra. The chakra same had a won't get against minato



Samehada has canonically absorbed chakra directly from the Eight Tails sealed inside of Bee.

Even 1 Rasengan is enough to give Kisame chakra to regenerate. A blitz decapitation is hugely OOC and pretty easy to stop.



professor83 said:


> Minato kills Iwa ninja with a Kunai
> Bee thought he had to save Ay even with lighting armour ,Cuts through hachibis tail
> Every ninja point their kunai in the opponents neck to kill .why?



To slit their throats.

Something Kisame can recover from.

That entire Ay vs Minato scene is nonsense, Ay's V2 would have tanked a Kunai stab, considering his armor canonically almost tanked Chidori.

Are you going to tell me Minato's plain old Kunai=MS Sasuke's Chidori in piercing power?

No? Then stop with that point.

Doesn't matter if it cut through Hachibi's tail. Muscle and skin are much MUCH softer than solid bone.


People can die to a Kunai from slit throats, i'm not denying that.

I'm saying Kisame is an exception due to regen (and insane durability)



professor83 said:


> Minato had absolute no KI. He verbally announced his arrival "He was not even surprised . Did e say oh you reacted to my gtg and was their any element of surprise in minato"




When Minato appeared behind Bee, before Minato could stab him, Bee already had his sword pointed at Minato's chest behind him. Base bee reacted to FTG, no matter how much you don't like it.



professor83 said:


> Mangaka opinion>your opinion



I'm saying he seemed more certain of Nagato and Naruto than of Minato.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2017)

I'm under fire from all sides...my god.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Hmm didn't katsuyu save them for being destroyed? It completely destroyed the village, has Kisame shown any feats to suggest he tanks that? Hmm, I wonder.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Would be nice if you could address me without constantly spamming 

Makes you look like an idiot incapable of discussion, knock it off.

OT: Didn't Kiba survive without being covered by Katsuyu?

Didn't Hinata?

(I could be misremembering, been a while since i've read the entire Pein arc)


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> What is unrealistic about one of the GamaToad breaking another out of genjutsu?



Nothing, I don't doubt that they can break genjutsu

But to say the Gamatrio can USE genjutsu is totally baseless.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Even 1 Rasengan is enough to give Kisame chakra to regenerate. A blitz decapitation is hugely OOC and pretty easy to stop.


Samehada has to absorb rasengan neither kisame nor samehada can intercept minatos attack.
How does kisame STOL blitz wow


Troyse22 said:


> I'm saying Kisame is an exception due to regen (and insane durability)


Kisame can't regenerate without taking chakra.


Troyse22 said:


> When Minato appeared behind Bee, before Minato could stab him, Bee already had his sword pointed at Minato's chest behind him. Base bee reacted to FTG, no matter how much you don't like it.


Already said what needs to be said
Minato had absolute no KI. He verbally announced his arrival "He was not even surprised . Did he say oh you reacted to my gtg and was their any element of surprise in face ofminato"
When the time minato destroyed obito more reflexive guy than kisame .
Kisame never reacted to bee it was samehada that moved forward kisame had his chest apart. I am sure sb explained that last time.


Troyse22 said:


> I'm saying he seemed more certain of Nagato and Naruto than of Minato.


Except the minato child of prophecy thing  was known across land

Dont bother replying here . I will be waiting for your rebuttal we will deal it there .


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## Serene Grace (Jan 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Would be nice if you could address me without constantly spamming
> 
> Makes you look like an idiot incapable of discussion, knock it off.


Was just playing with you, but OK.



Troyse22 said:


> Didn't Kiba survive without being covered by Katsuyu?
> 
> Didn't Hinata?


No. This notion of Kisame surviving CST, is utter ridiculousness:
1. It completely destroyed the village, and all of its inhabitants that weren't covered by Katsuyu
2. Broke the bones of the gamatrio, and left them in an immobile, injured state.

Kisame hasn't shown durability any where *near* this level, you're gonna have to provide feats for such.


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## LostSelf (Jan 18, 2017)

Is this Itachi vs Jiraiya or Kisame vs Minato/attacks? .

On top of that, Itachi wins but this is a very hard to judge battle because Itachi lacks the speed to prevent Jiraiya's attacks or defensive measures. On the other hand, Itachi just needs to kill either of the frogs to stop Jiraiya's sage mode. Not to mention Itachi's very overwhelming when it comes to trickery, that even Sage Kabuto had trouble following. So i see Jiraiya having a very hard time countering such, and worse for him considering he's not a liquid body like Kabuto is.

Jiraiya should have defenses against Amaterasu with sensing. But like i said, Itachi's tricky, and even if Jiraiya has some sort of slight method to counter genjutsu, it's not as effective by itself considering Kabuto had to take extra measures. Jiraiya lacks instant attacks or protections, relying on sensing is hard against Itachi's trickery and fast handspeed.

Sooner or later Jiraiya is going to be put in a bad position or one of his frogs will be hit. However, i can see Jiraiya dealing with Susano'o with Yomi Numa or Amaterasu sensing. At least, for a brief time.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Is this Itachi vs Jiraiya or Kisame vs Minato/attacks? .



True, I will refrain from responding to anything other than the OT Itachi vs Jiraiya.

Prof and death you can invite me to a PM if you want to continue the discussion



LostSelf said:


> Sooner or later Jiraiya is going to be put in a bad position or one of his frogs will be hit. However, i can see Jiraiya dealing with Susano'o with Yomi Numa or Amaterasu sensing. At least, for a brief time.



How exactly does Yomi Numa deal with Susanoo?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 19, 2017)

@Troyse22
*Spoiler*: _Troyse22 if you want to finish up one of these debates go ahead and ask me - im open to literally all of them. We can even start out fresh on these debates if youre interested and i wont rush you. I told you when you first came on the forum that i would kill the fanboyism that lies within you. and note that this isn't me addressing those arguments but just the small statements you've made here today_ 





Kisame vs Pein Rikudo. *Am having a debate with @The Death & The Strawberry when I can get some time off of work *- Where at I would like to see it from beginning to end and I should note that you and I had the debate and then you left it abandoned. 
Kisame vs Minato (Alive) *The debate was crashed by genetically weak scum, I never conceded the topic, in fact, I think it was Profs turn to comment *- I never said you conceded - I'm not dumb enough to think that abandoning a debate = concession but on more than one occasion ive seen you accept concessions for late responses.
Kisame vs Tobirama (Alive) *I don't recall debating this *- You don't remember responding to my paragraph with "Tobirama is a white-haired autistic who gets low-diffed by Kisame"?? If you really don't remember ill go find it.
Kisame vs Killer Bee (unrestricted) *I've addressed this multiple times wtf? *- You abandoned the debate - not on the NBD but with me personally. You just said Daikodan > TBB and Hachibi wont tank it - never addressed the simple arguments I put forth.
Kisame vs Tsunade *Addressed this, just not in our PM *- No you abandoned the debate on NBD and in our PM. You made a case for Kisame taking her out then everyone countered and you said  "wow that's a lot of responses ill get to this." and never did so I brought it to a PM with just us two and you abandoned that one as well.
Kisame vs Orochimaru *Addressed this, just not in our PM *- Again multiple people came forth with rebuttals on the NBD and many of them were never addressed. 
Kisame vs Itachi (Alive) *Made an entire thread dedicated to the topic, although now that I think about it, I should check if anyones left any other messages *- You left it abandoned in a PM with me as well. Not sure about the NBD thread you made but given your ridiculously predictable record -- you probably left that one open-ended.
Aoda vs Manda *I still maintain Aoda is faster and more reflexive than Manda, however as to who wins a 1v1 is unclear *- You abandoned the debate - you have still failed to explain why Aoda is more reflexive and has better speed. You also keep saying Manda has strength feats -- where are these because all of his feats are straight up speed. Also note that Manda is "the strongest python on earth" not Aoda.
____________________

Chakra Enhanced Strength vs Samehada *Addressed this. Samehada has canonically absorbed Chakra directly out of Eight Tails sealed inside of Bee, can do the same to CES *- How are the two even remotely similar? Also Kisamehada is what took chakra straight from Hachibi - Samehada itself was struggling with his regular V2 and v1 states. Literally none of Samehadas absorption feats suggest it can take in CES. 
Kisames Waterdome can float in the air / Kisame can fly *I'm still unclear on the Waterdome floating thing, however I no longer use that in my debates. If the chakra and water revolves and gravitates toward Kisame, logic dictates if Kisame swims up, the Waterdome will follow. *- Its a dome not sphere - it would make no sense if he could make it levitate. Also note that he is at the center of waterdome all the time how is she going to swim upward?
Kisame can escape the AOE of Chibaku Tensei *If Underwater yes *- Nothing at all suggests this. Especially when you consider the fact that the oceans curents would get real fucked up  if a Chibaku Tensei orb was floating above it - he'd be swimming away and realize that he hasn't moved at all -- also a good chance that he'd just start floating with all the shit comin up to CT. ... + Nagato/Pein Rikudo could aim Chibaku Tensei right at Kisame if they wanted to .. id like to see him escape chibaku tensei when its 5 meters away.
Kisame can tank CST *Kisame survived Hirudora, he can survive the very overrated CST, that canonically didn't kill any respectable shinobi in Konoha *- Aside from the fact Katsuyu saved a shit ton of those guys the force was directed at the entire village - if he focuses a ST that powerful at one opponent what do you think is going to happen?
Kisame can match Killer Bee, KCM Naruto & Edo Tensei Itachi in CQC -- its one thing to claim he'd defeat such a trio but to say that he would overpower them in CQC????? *I said he'd overpower them in CQC? *- Actually this one I will cross out or perhaps edit - you said hed overpower them from underwater with his eyes closed cause sensing chakra through your skin is now equivalent to Snake Sensing paired with Sage Mode
Kisame can react to FTG *Bee reacted to FTG, Kisame reacted to Bee, logic dictates he can react to FTG *- who wants to take this one? @WorldsStrongest ive seen you explain it to him more than once - maybe youre interested @PhantomSage?? And note that you don't even say hes just reacting but that he will counter attack before Minato lands his own attack
Kisame will kill Orochimaru with Water Prison *Can't weave signs if Kisame is uses Suiton clones to reinforce the Water Prison, as explained by @Sapherosth *- extending kusanagi from the mouth handles them. Also note the fact that catching Orochimaru in waterprison is close to impossible considering the fact that he's typically using Summons and attacking from a distance. He can still puke up Mandara no Jin from inside the prison which should easily bust it or at least kill the clones.  
Kisame can shake off Tsunades CES punch to the face / he is almost equal to Tsunade in strength *Bijuu like strength. *- Bijuu like strength is nothing close to her CES and he's completely lacking feats to suggest his strength is on par with Tsunade one of the only Naruto characters that completely capitalizes on strength.
Samehada can absorb KCM Narutos FRS / Samehada can absorb Amaterasu *That's right. *- You've abandoned these debates as well. 
Samehada is "ridiculously heavy" *Yup *- prove it
Minato was never considered as a child of prophecy *Jiraiya seemed certain that Nagato was and then Naruto, he never seemed 1000% sure like he did with sibling students, of course, that's just my opinion *- He was so sure that he told the fucking Raikage that Minato was the child of prophecy. 
Samehada increases Kisames durability <<<  *I don't recall explicitly stating this, but I can't see why not, Samehada itself is incredibly durable, merged with Kisame, Kisame should inherit some of its durability *- Samehada is incredibly durable? Since when? It's not exactly the king of tanking attacks.
Kisame tanked full powered + killing intent Hirudora *That's right *- Ill tell you for the hundredth time - if you look at the scan you can see Hirudora losing power as it pushes through Daikodan - and we already know that Gai didn't have killing intent because he was trying to capture him.
If Tsunade and Kisame met fist to fist they would go flying an equal distance *Yup *- So Kisame can shatter iron with his bare fist?? Where are the feats?
Aoda is faster than Manda *Yup *- Prove it
Aoda could have escaped the AOE of C0 "guaranteed" *If he burrowed underground. If it was the same situation as the one Sasuke was in, it won't happen *- You said that if Sasuke summoned Aoda he would have escaped the AOE not that Aoda alone could escape it. Why would that even be worth mentioning when youre trying to compare Manda and Aoda??
Kisame can one-shot Uchiha Madara with Hashi Cells + Rinnegan *@PhantomSage actually forced a concession out of me with that. Preta deals with Daikodan. However Daikodan will still shred Susanoo *- doubt he would ever use Susanoo on him - any of his mokuton techs straight up one-shot.
Daikodan > Indras Arrow *Daikodan without absorbing chakra is weaker than Indra's arrow, however Daikodan can absorb Indra's arrow, and since Daikodan grows stronger in proportion to the jutsu it absorbs, it becomes stronger than Indra's Arrow *- If Kishimoto straight up said "no youre wrong" would you concede - yes or no?






> @HandfullofNaruto your sig is amusing Your laughable attempt at calling me out is gone, i've addressed everything here multiple times, and i've done it yet again.
> Keep your sig by all means, but it's baseless horseshit, just like the majority of your arguments


wait you think you just addressed all that? Most of these you just said "yep" or basically re-stated what I already typed out - to think that this has all been addressed with that post.. wow. anyway ill keep my sig and delete each of them as they are addressed.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Is this Itachi vs Jiraiya or Kisame vs Minato/attacks? .
> 
> On top of that, Itachi wins but this is a very hard to judge battle because *Itachi lacks the speed to prevent Jiraiya's attacks or defensive measures.* .




Show me 1 thing in Jiraiya's arsenal that Itachi cannot defend against or intercept. 


Yomi Numa is an absolutely overrated technique. Give me 1 reason why someone with a sharingan, reflexive reactions that's faster than EMS Sasuke and the speed to keep up with KCM Naruto be caught in something like Yomi Numa? 

The only feats of that technique is catching FODDER snakes and a fodder path which even then was used by surprised. Amateratsu was dealing with far superior opponents and was countered by hax techniques that Jiraiya has no access to.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 19, 2017)

Jiraiya win this due to portrayal, praises, feats, databook, statements, per canon encounters.. Enough said.

SM just simply too much for Itachi who have serious versatiliy and taxing issues with his assets.



Sapherosth said:


> Close range gets negged by Susano hand grab that outpaced Minato.


Can ı use SM Naruto's feats for Jiraiya .. If that so we have a curbstomp here.

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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Jiraiya win this due to portrayal, praises, feats, databook, statements, per canon encounters.. Enough said.
> 
> SM just simply too much for Itachi who have serious versatiliy and taxing issues with his assets.



Portrayal? Itachi wins by far.

Praises? Lmao, do you have any idea how many praises Itachi have got throughout the manga?

Feats? Itachi shits on Jiraiya by far

Databook? Wtf? 

Statements? What statement? 

Per canon encounters? The encounter where Jiraiya was shitting his pants? 

Yeah...."enough said".




> Can ı use SM Naruto's feats for Jiraiya .. If that so we have a curbstomp here.



What feats can possibly change the fact that Jiraiya is vastly outclassed in this battle in all aspects apart from stamina?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2017)

Jiraiya needs knowledge, distance, and to start in SM to win.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> vastly outclassed in this battle in all aspects


I've no other question , your honor  Hatred, Biasin, Manga Bending, Sucbjectivity


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## Duhul10 (Jan 19, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> I've no other question , your honor  Hatred, Biasin, Manga Bending, Sucbjectivity


The dude is a hater. I suggest you don't take him too seriously. I've met lots of guys like him here.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Veracity (Jan 19, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> This is just between us two - don't even want to imagine what he's leaving with people he doesn't consider "NBD Trash"
> 
> 
> Kisame vs Pein Rikudo. *Am having a debate with @The Death & The Strawberry when I can get some time off of work*
> ...



8 and 14 are just too much for me tbh

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mithos (Jan 19, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I would agree except the Toads are incapable of dealing with Itachi's elusive speed and in order to even remotely have a chance against Itachi, they're going to have to utilize a combined assault as they did against Pain which leaves them susceptible to the Sharingan. Amaterasu and even Shurikeninjutsu to the eyes would suffice in dismantling them.



I don't think so. Their size and AoE mean they can deal with Itachi's speed just fine - Itachi is quick, but compared to the toads he is tiny, so he would have a hard time not getting crushed or hit with giant weapons if a couple come at him at once. While Itachi tries to evade, he would also have to be on the look out for Jiraiya, including combo attacks such as Toad Flame Bombs. Itachi's speed isn't the problem; it's his bunshin feints and MS that they would have a problem with. 

Itachi might be able to overcome the summons eventually - or he might not - but he cannot deal with them casually. If he takes them out, at the very least that would require a lot of his chakra. The toads have been useful against the Kyuubi, Shukaku, Pain, the Juubi, and even Juubito. They're not non-factors for Itachi, and he cannot casually dance around them. 

My point was, though, that Itachi's fanfic ability to troll any summon and turn it against his master is not relevant to the outcome of the match.

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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> I've no other question , your honor  Hatred, Biasin, Manga Bending, Sucbjectivity




I literally cannot understand what you're trying to say.

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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> The encounter where Jiraiya was shitting his pants?


He smiled at them and promised to murder both of em on the spot. 





Sapherosth said:


> Portrayal? Itachi wins by far.


*Jiraiya Portrayal*:

"Had he known the truth we would not have won that battle" - Pein Rikudo / Itachis complete superior
"For unstoppable, all-knowing Pain to have had their hands full - means Jiraiya must have lived up to his reputation" - Uchiha Obito / Itachis superior (sort of)
"Even if you might be able to take him on, I'm not so sure about myself" - Hoshigaki Kisame / Uchiha Itachis inferior / Troyse22's vibrator
"Yeah... if we faced off we might end up killing each other. At the very least (as in a best case scenario) we'd hurt each other badly"
"With him as our enemy even the titles Konohas Uchiha Clan and Seven ninja Swordsman of the Mist pale in comparison" - Hoshigaki Kisame / "Yeah..." - Uchiha Itachi
We keep coming back to this - The Jinchuriki Naruto _needed_ someone who could effectively protect him from the Akatsuki so Kishimoto created Jiraiya .. his entire character is basically Akatsuki spray-on repellent. 
Trained Minato, Nagato & Naruto - three of the strongest characters in the manga & all of them are superior to Itachi where portrayal and feats are concerned. 
I feel like I'm forgetting something really important .. fuck it / what put Itachi "far" ahead of Jiraiya where portrayal is concerned?

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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Kisame can react to FTG *Bee reacted to FTG, Kisame reacted to Bee, logic dictates he can react to FTG *- who wants to take this one? @WorldsStrongest ive seen you explain it to him more than once - maybe youre interested @PhantomSage?? And note that you don't even say hes just reacting but that he will counter attack before Minato lands his own attack


Its not really worth addressing tbh

Its just outright incorrect to state Bee reacted to FTG, as that aint what happened.

Minato didnt have KI against Bee

If minato had KI he woulda done this to Bee instead

Or this

Minato also verbally announced his arrival before Bee reacted

So extrapolating an assumption that kisame can react to FTG because bee did is flawed from the start as your logic is based on incorrect information on more than one front.

1. Bee is faster than kisame
2. Bee is more reactive than kisame
3. Bee still failed to react to FTG

Then tack on the fact kisame coudnt react to V2 bee who is slower than V2 A whom FTG shits on...

Kisame was hiding behind samehada before Bee even started to move, thats not a reaction

Kisame also got murked by that lariat, so his defense didnt save him from jack


FTG>>>V2 A>V2 Bee>Base Bee>Kisame

Kisame cant react to jack shit

OT

Id say Jman would lose, i view it like this

Base Jman>=3T Itachi

MS Itachi>Base Jman

SM Jman>=MS Itachi

So unless jman starts in SM he has an uphill battle here, if he makes it to SM he could win tho.

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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2017)

That's not at all what happened. Bee intercepted FTG from hitting Ei despite Minato instantly appearing behind Ei. It is an incterception feat but also a reaction nonetheless from meters away.

Bee did not react to FTG because you can't. He anticipated it. This cop out nonsense that Bee moved after Minato "announced"himself is nonsense. The whole scene was to show Minato dominating Ei with tactics and Bee being sharp enough to counter Minato's tactics twice. If Minato would have went to swing at Ei then Bee would have piked his gut as per canon, and hence the reason Minato hyped Bee's shinobi instinct in the first place. To try and paint the scenario as Minato letting Bee live and hyping him for moving his arm after he ported is not only going against the meta scene portrayal but shits on Minato himself in thinking that he'd let someone point their weapon at his gut after he already has their back like such. You saying he didn't have KI there because he didn't auto cuck that shinobi?

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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Bee *intercepted*


Well interception feats are kinda...well...yeah...

We dont know when Bee started moving, he could have started moving the instant A left his side for all we know, and he still only managed to intercept the second FTG which he obviously has more time to deal with.




Dr. White said:


> This cop out* nonsense *that Bee moved after Minato "announced"himself is *nonsense.*


Yay for redundancy

Its also exactly what happened, you dont gotta like it, but its whats on panel bro



Dr. White said:


> The whole scene was to show Minatos superiority over the A/B combo


Ftfy

You musta forgot what was going down when flashback got triggered



Dr. White said:


> If Minato would have went to swing at Ei then Bee would have piked his gut as per canon,


Just like how in canon, minato announces his arrival verbally to Bee thus allowing him to react, as opposed to ramming a rasengan into his spine


Dr. White said:


> hence the reason Minato hyped Bee's shinobi instinct in the first place.


Didnt hype his instincts, he praised his bravery


Dr. White said:


> To try and paint the scenario as Minato letting Bee live and hyping him for moving his arm after he ported is not only going against the meta scene portrayal but shits on Minato himself in thinking that he'd let someone point their weapon at his gut after he already has their back like such.


Minato was really in no danger there...or did you miss the fact he had dozens of kunai he could escape to before bee could even think about attacking him? 

Thats likely why minato gave no shits about having bees sword on him, hell the man had a smile on his face and struck up a convo with bee, that and the fact he also had a knife on Bee of course.

Minato knew he was in no danger from bee, unless you wanna claim base Bee can Move his sword to attack minato before V2 A could move a single inch of course, cuz if bee is any slower than that minato is gonna neg diff that sword with his reactions.


Dr. White said:


> You saying he didn't have KI there because he didn't auto cuck that shinobi?



Against that fodder rock nin? Minato killed him seconds later...so he had KI there...

He also didnt verbally announce his arrival like he did against bee.

So he didnt have Ki against bee. Isnt that obvious?

If minato wanted Bee dead he would be dead courtesy of a rasengan lolblitzs that even kamui phasing couldnt deal with.

Then tack on the fact minato said he liked bee and praised his character.

Minato also likely sympathized with bees jin predicament cuz of minatos relationship to the hottie, kushina.

Its very clear minato didnt wanna kill bee there, hence no KI.

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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Well interception feats are kinda...well...yeah...
> 
> We dont know when Bee started moving, he could have started moving the instant A left his side for all we know, and he still only managed to intercept the second FTG which he obviously has more time to deal with.


Kinda what? I am the one who explained this notion to you. Interception feats are not null and void from being appllicable, they just cannot be used to make claims if A > B in speed. Bee still crossed dozens of meters to intercept an attacking Minato using FTG to attack from inches away.





> Yay for redundancy
> 
> Its also exactly what happened, you dont gotta like it, but its whats on panel bro


Except the nonsense is not the fact that Minato spoke (which in manga is a free action anyway), it's the made up part of that being Bee's cue to react and move hsi sword when he clearly anticipated Minato befor ehand hence the whole scene portrayal.




> Ftfy
> 
> You musta forgot what was going down when flashback got triggered


Except Ei admitted inferioirty in speed which was the whole stress of the scene ala Nardo accomplishing something Minato did with FTG via hsi kyuubi speed. Minato also got scratched by Ei highlighting he accomplished dodging v2 charge by the skin of his nose. Minato never beat or maimed them, and B countered his usage twice leading to hype from Minato himself. You're blowing Minato's impressivness out of the waters with ubsubstantiated interpretations.



> Just like how in canon, minato announces his arrival verbally to Bee thus allowing him to react, as opposed to ramming a rasengan into his spine
> 
> Didnt hype his instincts, he praised his bravery
> 
> Minato was really in no danger there...or did you miss the fact he had dozens of kunai he could escape to before bee could even think about attacking him?


Minato has to form rasengan before hitting someone with V2. Which is why he followed up vs Obito with a kunai stab once marked and not his Rasengan.

Hirashin V2 is a set up move for mid combat, Hirashin mark blitz is not the same. 

Minato praised his "killer shinobi moves" not his bravery. His instinct in comparison to Ei who bullrushed in.



> Thats likely why minato gave no shits about having bees sword on him, hell the man had a smile on his face and struck up a convo with bee, that and the fact he also had a knife on Bee of course.


Yes because Minato was clearly the most superior individual fighter on the field and had FTG. He smiled because Bee's inticipation surprised him and that's why he hyped Bee for being level headed and calm during combat and learning from it to counter one's moves. There is never any indication that Bee moves his hand from the first time we see Minato pop up, the only thing that happens is Minato looks down and to his surprise their is a pike to his gut.



> Minato knew he was in no danger from bee, unless you wanna claim base Bee can Move his sword to attack minato before V2 A could move a single inch of course, cuz if bee is any slower than that minato is gonna neg diff that sword with his reactions.


Minato did not anticipate Bee anticipating his spatial location after the FTG jump, if Minato had struck Bee would have reactively pushed his gut in especially given his immense durability and reactions himself along with him anticipating the jumps position.


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## adeshina365 (Jan 19, 2017)

Itachi low-mid diff.

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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Except the nonsense is not the fact that Minato spoke (which in manga is a free action anyway), it's the made up part of that being Bee's cue to react and move hsi sword when he clearly anticipated Minato befor ehand hence the whole scene portrayal.


Free action...

Do you not know how speaking works???

It takes time...

Thus extending the window Bee has to react to minato

That and he would be able to hear minato talking from behind him and thus have an idea of where he is.

Bee clearly abused minatos verbal response as a means to assist him in moving to counter FTG

Otherwise, hed have no idea where minato went, as minato could have jumped to any of the dozens of knives he has scattered around and dodged A that way rather than blitzing Bee the way he did.



Dr. White said:


> You're blowing Minato's impressivness out of the waters with ubsubstantiated interpretations.


Youre blowing what Bee and A did way out of proportion in an obvious effort to make Minato look bad

Which is nothing new

Nothing unsubstantiated about what is blatantly shown to us bro

Minato dodged A using FTG

Appears behind B

Several panels pass, and several people talk before Bee has a sword on minato

At what point does speaking wear out its "free action" status in your mind?

Bee had so much time to react there it wasnt even funny



Dr. White said:


> Hirashin V2 is a set up move for mid combat, Hirashin mark blitz is not the same.


No...But its still more than enough to blitz Bee if minato had KI

As shown here



WorldsStrongest said:


> Or this





Dr. White said:


> Minato did not anticipate Bee anticipating his spatial location after the FTG jump, if Minato had struck Bee would have reactively pushed his gut in especially given his immense durability and reactions himself along with him anticipating the jumps position.


Minato didnt need to FTG behind Bee to kill him tho, as shown against obito, despite having the mark on obitos back, minato can still blitz you face first, and what would bee have done there if instead of a contract seal in his right hand, minato fired a rasengan instead???

He could have done the same to Bee as soon as Bee had his sword out

Or could have blitzed bee like that from the start and would have been safe from Bees sword as a result

Point is, theres about half a dozen ways minato could have played this scenario if he wanted Bee dead, and he didnt do so, add in the way he was casually speaking to bee and how he was speaking half friendly to him, and you have a no KI minato.

Im done discussing this anyway, i know from discussions with you in the past this will go nowhere.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> He smiled at them and promised to murder both of em on the spot.




And then after that brief skirmish, Jiraiya stated it took a huge effort just to "keep them away" with a serious face. 



> *Jiraiya Portrayal*:
> 
> "Had he known the truth we would not have won that battle" - Pein Rikudo / Itachis complete superior



"Fortunately, I've managed to keep a few secrets from him. If I hadn't, I would've been dead by now" - Obito Uchiha / Pain's superior. 

"Now that Itachi's dead,Konoha is no longer off-limits" Obito Uchiha 

"He doesn't have much time left, Pain, you take care the 9 tails" Obito Uchiha ordering Pain after Naruto after confirming Itachi doesn't have much time left. 



> "For unstoppable, all-knowing Pain to have had their hands full - means Jiraiya must have lived up to his reputation" - Uchiha Obito / Itachis superior (sort of)



Not sure how that's a superior hype to Itachi. That's a vastly inferior hype to "Invincible". 

At that point in time, only three people were called invincible. Pain, Madara and Itachi. 



> "Even if you might be able to take him on, I'm not so sure about myself" - Hoshigaki Kisame / Uchiha Itachis inferior / Troyse22's vibrator
> 
> "Yeah... if we faced off we might end up killing each other. At the very least (as in a best case scenario) we'd hurt each other badly"



Been over this a thousand times. Kisame clearly considered Itachi as superior after he witnessed Jiraiya. 



> "With him as our enemy even the titles Konohas Uchiha Clan and Seven ninja Swordsman of the Mist pale in comparison" - Hoshigaki Kisame / "Yeah..." - Uchiha Itachi



As if Itachi at 11/13 years old didn't humiliate someone who holds that title also. Kisame wasn't aware of that.




> We keep coming back to this - The Jinchuriki Naruto _needed_ someone who could effectively protect him from the Akatsuki so Kishimoto created Jiraiya .. his entire character is basically Akatsuki spray-on repellent.


 
It was explicitly stated that Kyuubi wasn't captured BECAUSE of the order in which the bijuu's have to be sealed in.....Jiraiya literally has zero part in stopping Akatsuki. 

I even showed you a panel stating that.



> Trained Minato, Nagato & Naruto - three of the strongest characters in the manga & all of them are superior to Itachi where portrayal and feats are concerned.


All three of them are leagues ahead of Jiraiya as well, so I am not sure why that's considered as a superior portrayal. 




> I feel like I'm forgetting something really important .. fuck it / what put Itachi "far" ahead of Jiraiya where portrayal is concerned?



Well, I have an answer for you

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## Serene Grace (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Well, I have an answer for you


I don't remember Kabuto saying this in the original scan. I think he said something like, "its impossible to get out its line of fire".

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## Duhul10 (Jan 19, 2017)

Zetsu said Itachi was invincible at the sight of Susanoo, which is a jutsu meant to protect the user from like every kind of attack (theoretically)
Being able to stop any kind of jutsu= invincible in zetsu's eyes. Back then Susanoo had no weak spot ( aside from Itachi's stamina of course )
The Susanoo thing was retconned when Gaara threw Madara out of Susanoo like a fly.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I don't remember Kabuto saying this in the original scan. I think he said something like, "its impossible to get out its line of fire".

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## Troyse22 (Jan 19, 2017)

Susanoo protects from everything...except Gaara's sand.

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## Serene Grace (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


>


what purpose did this serve? I only said that I don't remember the scan saying that, I wasn't arguing with you on anything.

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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> what purpose did this serve? I only said that I don't remember the scan saying that, I wasn't arguing with you on anything.




For future reference


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## Ayala (Jan 19, 2017)

B had to react to the FGT, or else Minato wouldn't have praised him and called him shinobi-killer boy or whatever it was. Anyone can move a sword to the gut after enough time, point was he moved that in response at the time Minato got behind him, not after, or else no point in praising him. Not to mention someone good enough like Minato wouldn't let his opponent move a muscle in that condition, he would notice it right away.

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## UchihaX28 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mithos said:


> I don't think so. Their size and AoE mean they can deal with Itachi's speed just fine - Itachi is quick, but compared to the toads he is tiny, so he would have a hard time not getting crushed or hit with giant weapons if a couple come at him at once. While Itachi tries to evade, he would also have to be on the look out for Jiraiya, including combo attacks such as Toad Flame Bombs. Itachi's speed isn't the problem; it's his bunshin feints and MS that they would have a problem with.



That's nice and dandy if the summons weren't depicted sluggish even against the slower Path. It's highly irrelevant if he's tiny because "small things can come in big packages". 

I agree with this premise, but it doesn't discredit that Itachi has the capability to ensnare them because all of them would be forced to attack simultaneously if they were to accomplish something due to Itachi's speed. The context of Chiyo's statement referred to striking from the blind-spot and Itachi is presumably aware of this limitation as well which makes your argument somewhat dubious.



> Itachi might be able to overcome the summons eventually - or he might not - but he cannot deal with them casually. If he takes them out, at the very least that would require a lot of his chakra. The toads have been useful against the Kyuubi, Shukaku, Pain, the Juubi, and even Juubito. They're not non-factors for Itachi, and he cannot casually dance around them.



Nagato's Summons have been instrumental against everyone and they were dismantled with relative ease by Itachi. The conventional approach that most would take such as eliminating the summoner was not a requirement for Itachi while it was for SM Naruto who was assisted by every Boss Toad as well as Ma and Pa.



> My point was, though, that Itachi's fanfic ability to troll any summon and turn it against his master is not relevant to the outcome of the match.



It certainly isn't because it wouldn't be necessary.


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## UltimaDude (Jan 19, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> B had to react to the FGT, or else Minato wouldn't have praised him and called him shinobi-killer boy or whatever it was.


I like to think that Bee knew that Minato was going to teleport behind him as seen as he felt Minato placing his on Gyuki's tentacle. Thus, Bee had his sword out before Minato teleported behind him


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## Ayala (Jan 19, 2017)

UltimaDude said:


> I like to think that Bee knew that Minato was going to teleport behind him as seen as he felt Minato placing his on Gyuki's tentacle. Thus, Bee had his sword out before Minato teleported behind him



I don't think it was ever implied that the Hiraishin tag could be felt. Obito didn't feel it and neither did the Iwagakure Jonin. 

It's also a reason why it's that dangerous, you don't feel else but a touch, and in the middle of the combat, you don't even feel or focus on a touch.


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## Mithos (Jan 19, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I agree with this premise, but it doesn't discredit that Itachi has the capability to ensnare them because all of them would be forced to attack simultaneously if they were to accomplish something due to Itachi's speed. The context of Chiyo's statement referred to striking from the blind-spot and Itachi is presumably aware of this limitation as well which makes your argument somewhat dubious.



I'm sure most of the Uchiha clan were aware of that limitation - if the strategy was used to fight against Uchiha then they must have known about it - but that still didn't stop it from being true. Aware or not, Itachi does not possess the Byakugan, so he cannot see into his blind-spot.

The summons & Jiraiya don't even need to land a blow on Itachi for them to use their number advantage to defensively counter genjutsu - as long as a teammate can provide a distraction/stall long enough for someone to use genjutsu: kai on the affected, it served its purpose. And Itachi isn't going to attempt genjutsu when there are multiple targets coming at him at once, because that would leave him open to their attacks.



> Nagato's Summons have been instrumental against everyone and they were dismantled with relative ease by Itachi. The conventional approach that most would take such as eliminating the summoner was not a requirement for Itachi while it was for SM Naruto who was assisted by every Boss Toad as well as Ma and Pa.



Edo Itachi who does not have stamina or eyesight limitations. He had to use Amaterasu against the Cerberus - using Amaterasu against even a single boss toad is less than ideal, let alone against 2-3 of them. Nagato's summons didn't have tanto or shields to block or deflect Shuriken like the Gama trio do, so Itachi would probably be forced to use more chakra consuming methods to deal with them.



> It certainly isn't because it wouldn't be necessary.



I don't really know why we're going back and forth to be honest. I haven't even been arguing that Jiraiya would win - I think the match could go either way. Either Jiraiya stalls long enough to achieve Sage Mode, at which point I think he has the tools necessary to deal with MS and win, or Itachi takes him out before then. In order to do so, Itachi will have to bypass the toads and defeat Jiraiya, not eliminate them, which would quickly deplete his stamina and leave him in a position in which he's unlikely to have the chakra needed to take on Jiraiya.

Itachi's best bet would be to use bunshin feints to get around the toads and surprise base Jiraiya with MS techniques, or to attempt to plow past the toads and go for Jiraiya with Susano'o. Trying to fight boss toads with Amaterasu or Shuriken, of all things, is not a good idea.

I've said what I want to say, so I don't see the point in continuing. I'm not invested enough to argue strongly for Jiraiya's case; I just don't think the toads should be discounted like they have been.


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## Android (Jan 19, 2017)

So much sig worth shit here .
It's hard to pick one .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 19, 2017)

Alright you got me mad, let me trash a few of these scans.


Please don't tell me you actually think Hashirama means that in strength? Lets not forget he's talking to Sasuke whos also about to destroy the village and is also Itachi's *brother*.


Hmm so where are the feats to back this baseless, trash hype up? It hurts when the guy who said this, wasn't even aware of Itachi being sick, yah so credible


Hmm this is funny coming from you. You were the same guy who said the pain statement about Jiraiya beating him with knowledge was false, but now you believe this to be true? Such fricken hypocrisy. 




again man, this is what he actually said


Are you joking or do you honestly think this is....hype?


How is this hype?
the other scans I'll give you the benefit of the doubt/agree to disagre on, as I don't really have to the time to search for mistranslations, or debunk scans.  In particular the scan where Orochimaru admitted to Itachi being stronger than him, I can't find it, so I'm not sure if its a mistranslation or not.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

At least half of those scans are either complete BS or useless hyperbole tho


1. Hashirama would kick itachis ass from here to Kentucky while blindfolded and handcuffed, you are dreaming if you think otherwise, so that "greater shinobi than me" scan is BS


2. "No finer shinobi for my edo tensei than you" says kabuto, who raised fucking nagato and madara...nuff...said...this is also BS


3. Would love to know how anything itachi has ever demonstrated keeps him from getting the torune/fu treatment against obito, phasing shits in itachis mouth, so the "i would be dead if itachi knew about me" scan is also horseshit


4. And the classic BZ "invincible" quote where itachi kicked the bucket literally a minute later...not gonna touch this one, should be obvious that its useless


5. Nothing Itachi has bar using izanami on kabuto would have any substantial effect on the war, and its blatant wank to suggest otherwise


6. "True Hokage" who blatantly admitted he fucked up at every turn and basically made every wrong decision in regards to sasuke whom he made those decisions to protect...

Hokage elect 2017

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 5 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Suoh (Jan 19, 2017)

Itachi's portrayal, to me atleast, exceeds Jiraiya's by a decent margin. Acknowledgment from multiple Kage. From Kabuto, Obito, Orochimaru ( Jiraiya's peer), etc

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> At least half of those scans are either complete BS or useless hyperbole tho



Hahaha, but when it comes to Jiraiya, I am sure non of it is hyperbole, right?





> 1. Hashirama would kick itachis ass from here to Kentucky while blindfolded and handcuffed, you are dreaming if you think otherwise, so that "greater shinobi than me" scan is BS



Irrelevant.




> 2. "No finer shinobi for my edo tensei than you" says kabuto, who raised fucking nagato and madara...nuff...said...this is also BS



So Kabuto is wrong huh.




> 3. Would love to know how anything itachi has ever demonstrated keeps him from getting the torune/fu treatment against obito, phasing shits in itachis mouth, so the "i would be dead if itachi knew about me" scan is also horseshit



So Obito is wrong huh.

I am sure you're one of those who believe that Pain would actually lose to Jiraiya despite never saying he will lose, but then say Itachi cannot kill Obito despite Obito saying Itachi can kill him. 




> 4. And the classic BZ "invincible" quote where itachi kicked the bucket literally a minute later...not gonna touch this one, should be obvious that its useless



So Zetsu is wrong huh. It's not like he's the will of Kaguya. 

Statement came soon after Pain was called Invincible. 2 different fights on the same day, 2 different characters called invincible. Coincidence? 



> 5. Nothing Itachi has bar using izanami on kabuto would have any substantial effect on the war, and its blatant wank to suggest otherwise



So Kabuto is wrong huh...again.



> 6. "True Hokage" who blatantly admitted he fucked up at every turn and basically made every wrong decision in regards to sasuke whom he made those decisions to protect...
> 
> Hokage elect 2017



I guess Kishi is wrong too.




Now, tell me. What hype does Jiraiya have that's greater than Itachi exactly?

It seems to me like you're reading an entirely different manga. Either that or you're secretly Kishi.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Hahaha, but when it comes to Jiraiya, I am sure non of it is hyperbole, right?


Dont know if you are aware of this, but im more or less on your team in this itachi Vs Jman debate, i just take issue with this bullshit portrayal angle you have taken.



WorldsStrongest said:


> OT
> 
> Id say Jman would lose, i view it like this
> 
> ...






Sapherosth said:


> Irrelevant.


It makes hashis statement irrelevant all right


Sapherosth said:


> So Kabuto is wrong huh.


This isnt an argument...

And if you applied contextual understanding of the overall material...

Never mind...



Sapherosth said:


> So Obito is wrong huh.





Sapherosth said:


> So Zetsu is wrong huh.





Sapherosth said:


> So Kabuto is wrong huh...again.





Sapherosth said:


> I guess Kishi is wrong too.






Sapherosth said:


> Now, tell me. What hype does Jiraiya have that's greater than Itachi exactly?



Ummmmm

Basically all of it?

*By portrayal* Jman likely defeats itachi, *but by feats*, id likely give it to itachi over Jman.

Thats my take on it.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> I am sure you're one of those who believe that Pain would actually lose to Jiraiya despite never saying he will lose, but then say Itachi cannot kill Obito despite Obito saying Itachi can kill him.


no actually he's not
he mentioned it in a thread where he said he doesn't take that statement because pain defeated the superior sm naruto with 3 boss toads for backup. and had to go kn8 to fight back. and yet Tendo was on cooldown for the whole match

and when he recovered from using CST he thrashed naruto low diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont know if you are aware of this, but im more or less on your team in this itachi Vs Jman debate, i just take issue with this bullshit portrayal angle you have taken.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Show me some J-man portrayal that compares to Itachi? Lmao


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> I am sure you're one of those who believe that Pain would actually lose to Jiraiya despite never saying he will lose, but then say Itachi cannot kill Obito despite Obito saying Itachi can kill him.





PhantomSage said:


> no actually he's not
> he mentioned it in a thread where he said he doesn't take that statement because pain defeated the superior sm naruto with 3 boss toads for backup. and had to go kn8 to fight back. and yet Tendo was on cooldown for the whole match


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## Parallaxis (Jan 19, 2017)

me? I'm one of those people who will take direct statements over feats etc.
because Kishi doesn't think about feats and how the battle will play out - he just decides who he wants to be superior.

So IMO Itachi w/intel can defeat Obito, Jiraiya w/full intel can defeat the version of pain that he fought, etc.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Show me some J-man portrayal that compares to Itachi? Lmao





WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont know if you are aware of this, but im more or less on your team in this itachi Vs Jman debate


Do you blatantly not read what i post or just get way too worked up and reply to the thing that catches your eye first?

It doesnt matter to me if Jmans portrayal is higher than itachis or not...

Feats> portrayal imo and i have already stated i give itachi the edge in that category


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> no actually he's not
> he mentioned it in a thread where he said he doesn't take that statement because pain defeated the superior sm naruto with 3 boss toads for backup. and had to go kn8 to fight back. and yet Tendo was on cooldown for the whole match
> 
> and when he recovered from using CST he thrashed naruto low diff




So what statement does this kid actually believe in?


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## Serene Grace (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Hahaha, but when it comes to Jiraiya, I am sure non of it is hyperbole, right


The irony, fuckin hurts. It makes it worse that you posted the obito scan.



Sapherosth said:


> Irrelevant


What's irrelevant about it? Its clear that Hashirama is superior to Itachi in every way, hence the name: "god of shinobi", and his feats that ridiculously humiliate Itachi. You're also forgetting that Hashirama was talking to Sasuke, who was planning on destroying the village, and was Itachi's brother, if you really think Hashirama wouldn't have said anything other then the positive, then I have nothing to say to you.



Sapherosth said:


> So Kabuto is wrong huh.


Yes because this is factually wrong, lol. He had Nagato, and Madara who vastly outclass Itachi, so....yeah I'll let you decipher the rest.



Sapherosth said:


> So Obito is wrong huh.


So pein saying Jiraiya would beat him, with knowledge is incorrect to you, but when Obito says Itachi would kill him with knowledge, its magically correct? Hypocrisy at its finest, fighters though.



Sapherosth said:


> So Zetsu is wrong huh.


Hmm maybe. He is the same person who wasn't even aware of Itachi being sick, so he's likely exteremly credible(blantant sarcasm).

I mean he proves how invincible he was, after he dropped to the floor and died.



Sapherosth said:


> So Kabuto is wrong huh...agai


what is Itachi gonna use, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi... Its laughable if you honestly think he has anything in his arsnel that would "stop" the war, the closet thing he has is izanami and even that took a long ass time, and causes him to lose an eye.



Sapherosth said:


> I guess Kishi is wrong too.


so you would vote for someone, as a presidential candidate, even if they themselves don't think they are?


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Do you blatantly not read what i post or just get way too worked up and reply to the thing that catches your eye first?
> 
> It doesnt matter to me if Jmans portrayal is higher than itachis or not...
> 
> Feats> portrayal imo and i have already stated i give itachi the edge in that category




Lmao, if you're trying to get involved in a debate about portrayal then you have to stick to it. I already KNOW that Itachi's feats > Jiraiya's. Some Jiraiya fanboy earlier was saying Jiraiya's portrayal is much better than Itachi's. I simply responded with scans of Itachi's hype and then you came in out of nowhere.

Now I am the one not reading? Tha fuq?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> So what statement does this kid actually believe in?



Ones that arent blatantly contradicted by manga canon


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## Serene Grace (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm officially taking a break from Itachi related discussions, they get worse and worse by the second.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> The irony, fuckin hurts. It makes it worse that you posted the obito scan.
> 
> 
> What's irrelevant about it? Its clear that Hashirama is superior to Itachi in every way, hence the name: "god of shinobi", and his feats that ridiculously humiliate Itachi. You're also forgetting that Hashirama was talking to Sasuke, who was planning on destroying the village, and was Itachi's brother, if you really think Hashirama wouldn't have said anything other then the positive, then I have nothing to say to you.



But as a shinobi, Itachi still > Hashirama. It's a concrete fact. 

Nobody was talking about power 




> Yes because this is factually wrong, lol. He had Nagato, and Madara who vastly outclass Itachi, so....yeah I'll let you decipher the rest.



Who I am I to judge? Not my words, but Kabuto's. He has no reason to lie and no ulterior motive. 




> So pein saying Jiraiya would beat him, with knowledge is incorrect to you, but when Obito says Itachi would kill him with knowledge, its magically correct? Hypocrisy at its finest, fighters though.



The difference is Pain never said he would lose, but Obito outright stated he would be killed. 




> Hmm maybe. He is the same person who wasn't even aware of Itachi being sick, so he's likely exteremly credible(blantant sarcasm).



Not sure why that matters.



> mean he proves how invincible he was, after he dropped to the floor and died.



At least he was called invincible....unlike a certain someone. 




> was is Itachi gonna use, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi... Its laughable if you honestly think he has anything in his arsnel that would "stop" the war, the closet thing he has is izanami and even that took a long ass time, and causes him to lose an eye.



Who knows, not my words. If you think you know more than Kishi then be my guess. 



> so you would vote for someone, as a presidential candidate, even if they themselves don't think they are?



It pays to be humble


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Lmao, if you're trying to get involved in a debate about portrayal then you have to stick to it.


What the fuck are you on about? Im not debating for Jman at all here...


WorldsStrongest said:


> *By portrayal* Jman* likely *defeats itachi



I said he* likely *has the edge in portrayal, and i dont feel like combing through 400+ chapters to prove myself right or wrong, hence a noncommittal response


Sapherosth said:


> I already KNOW that Itachi's feats > Jiraiya's.


Congratulations, i believe the same more or less



Sapherosth said:


> I simply responded with scans of Itachi's hype and then you came in out of nowhere.


Because 90% of those scans were BS...

And nowhere in my reply did i say that meant Jmans hype was better or worse, i merely pointed out flaws in your logic.

Thats all.



Sapherosth said:


> Now I am the one not reading?


Well if your every response to me is any indication...


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Ones that arent blatantly contradicted by manga canon



Who do you think is stronger? 

Minato or Killer Bee


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 19, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Obito says Itachi would kill him with knowledge, its magically correct


Knowledge does not always apply one on one scenario. Konan could nearly beat obito with a knowledge itachi most likely would have anticipated Izanagi  if he were in the same scenario. . Itachi still needs preparation.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Who do you think is stronger?
> 
> Minato or Killer Bee


This is super off topic champ


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> What the fuck are you on about? Im not debating for Jman at all here...



Not sure why this is even relevant.  




> I said he* likely *has the edge in portrayal, and i dont feel like combing through 400+ chapters to prove myself right or wrong, hence a noncommittal response



Lmfao, if you don't even know what you're talking about then you should STFU and stay put. You clearly don't know your shit. 




> Because 90% of those scans were BS...
> 
> And nowhere in my reply did i say that meant Jmans hype was better or worse, i merely pointed out flaws in your logic.
> 
> Thats all.



Oh I see, point out the flaws in Itachi's hype while ignoring the flaws in Jiraiya's hype. 

Legit. 




> Well if your every response to me is any indication...




Sit down kid. Don't get involve where you don't belong.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This is super off topic champ




I simply want to know if you're a hypocrite.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Not sure why this is even relevant.


Youre the one who brought it up genius...


Sapherosth said:


> Lmfao, if you don't even know what you're talking about then you should STFU and stay put. You clearly don't know your shit.


This is hilariously ironic


Sapherosth said:


> Oh I see, point out the flaws in Itachi's hype while ignoring the flaws in Jiraiya's hype.


Yet another instance of you clearly not reading my post i see...

I pointed out flaws in your logic with those scans in particular, you didnt post any scans of Jmans hype...how do you suggest i point out flaws in something that hasnt been brought forth?



Sapherosth said:


> Sit down kid. Don't get involve where you don't belong.


Hilarious

I also super enjoy how you keep addressing my posts when i have said That i also believe Itachi wins like what...3 times now???


You are the one who keeps involving me sport, and for no reason i might add


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> I simply want to know if you're a hypocrite.


Killer Bee would likely win via feats with BM, although Minato has better portrayal

Kinda similar to what im saying this itachi Vs jman matchup is honestly

Bee tanked his own TBB in the war, so even if minato was to send one back at him with S/T barrier, Bee wouldnt be up a creek

Minato might be able to force a draw with RDS tho

BM minato would win as he has the superior BM


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mithos said:


> I'm sure most of the Uchiha clan were aware of that limitation - if the strategy was used to fight against Uchiha then they must have known about it - but that still didn't stop it from being true. Aware or not, Itachi does not possess the Byakugan, so he cannot see into his blind-spot.
> 
> The summons & Jiraiya don't even need to land a blow on Itachi for them to use their number advantage to defensively counter genjutsu - as long as a teammate can provide a distraction/stall long enough for someone to use genjutsu: kai on the affected, it served its purpose. And Itachi isn't going to attempt genjutsu when there are multiple targets coming at him at once, because that would leave him open to their attacks.



It's plausible, but given that Itachi has never been subdued by such a strategy and have demonstrated the skill necessary to defend his blind-spot effectively, I sincerely doubt this strategy would work.  [1] [2]

Adhering to the conventional mold has proven to be ineffective against Itachi. Even with the enriched knowledge Naruto had on Itachi's Sharingan, it simply wasn't enough, so there's very little credence in the strategy you're proposing here. Are we supposed to believe that this would work when Itachi's one of the best ninja in the entire manga capable of deterring blind-side attacks, one which Kabuto was compelled to assimilate Itachi's reactions to actual sensory awareness? Probably not.

Genjutsu is instantaneous, so it's not going to yield any openings, especially at the most opportune moment which Itachi is praised for. Actually, if we were going to advocate for Genjutsu: Kai, then I certainly can certainly argue that this will be conducive for Itachi given that Genjutsu: Kai is not instantaneous and a rather predictable move.



> Edo Itachi who does not have stamina or eyesight limitations. He had to use Amaterasu against the Cerberus - using Amaterasu against even a single boss toad is less than ideal, let alone against 2-3 of them. Nagato's summons didn't have tanto or shields to block or deflect Shuriken like the Gama trio do, so Itachi would probably be forced to use more chakra consuming methods to deal with them.



I was never referring to Cerberus to begin with, I used Nagato's summons to illustrate my point because they also were denoted as instrumental against some of the most renowned shinobi yet Itachi still effectively eluded Nagato's summons despite deviating from targeting the summoner even though this was vital for SM Naruto even though he had the assistance of the Gama Trio and Ma&Pa to accomplish that.

Gama Trio can't perceive Itachi's attacks to begin with since it was capable of circumnavigating an impeccable defense that covered every blind-spot according to Pa and Jiraiya.



> I don't really know why we're going back and forth to be honest. I haven't even been arguing that Jiraiya would win - I think the match could go either way. Either Jiraiya stalls long enough to achieve Sage Mode, at which point I think he has the tools necessary to deal with MS and win, or Itachi takes him out before then. In order to do so, Itachi will have to bypass the toads and defeat Jiraiya, not eliminate them, which would quickly deplete his stamina and leave him in a position in which he's unlikely to have the chakra needed to take on Jiraiya.
> 
> Itachi's best bet would be to use bunshin feints to get around the toads and surprise base Jiraiya with MS techniques, or to attempt to plow past the toads and go for Jiraiya with Susano'o. Trying to fight boss toads with Amaterasu or Shuriken, of all things, is not a good idea.
> 
> I've said what I want to say, so I don't see the point in continuing. I'm not invested enough to argue strongly for Jiraiya's case; I just don't think the toads should be discounted like they have been.



Well, no point in furthering this discussion if you're pertinacious about the Boss Toad's viability in this match-up.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> But as a shinobi, Itachi still > Hashirama. It's a concrete fact.
> 
> Nobody was talking about power


- Is aware that Hashirama was called the God of shinobi(also has feats to back this claim), yet he still says nonsense such as this
-Forgets the guy Hashirama was talking to was Itachi's fucking brother, who was also planning on destroying the village because of the suffering it put him through.

Why would Hashirama, *not *lie or for godsake *exaggerate* in that scenario? Give me an actual reason, that makes sense.




Sapherosth said:


> Who I am I to judge? Not my words, but Kabuto's. He has no reason to lie and no ulterior motive.


You just have to use your eyes and head, to see through the bullshit. Kabuto has Nagato, and Madara...1 guy was about to neg diff a perfect jin, and a nearly perfect jin at the same damn time, while another was making the 5 kage, look like little puny genins. Yah..I'm gonna stick with the ones that have superior feats, and greater portrayal(that they can actually fuckin back up with feats).



Sapherosth said:


> The difference is Pain never said he would lose, but Obito outright stated he would be killed.


Doesn't really matter. Even if this hype was true, it gets seen as trash, when we see Konan nearly kill Obito with prep and knowledge, indicating that characters that are faaar weaker than Itachi could kill Obito with prep.


Sapherosth said:


> Not sure why that matters


What? Whether he's a credible source or not, doesn't matter?



Sapherosth said:


> Who knows, not my words. If you think you know more than Kishi then be my guess.


Not answering the question? I think I'll take that as a partial concession.



Sapherosth said:


> It pays to be humble


The man says he's made a plethora of mistakes, and one of those mistakes(being Sasuke) could have lead to the utter destruction of the leaf village by Sasukes hands, if he defeated Naruto.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 19, 2017)




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## UchihaX28 (Jan 19, 2017)

Suoh said:


> Itachi's portrayal, to me atleast, exceeds Jiraiya's by a decent margin. Acknowledgment from multiple Kage. From Kabuto, Obito, Orochimaru ( Jiraiya's peer), etc



 They only use portrayal unless it's a detriment to the argument being made. Most refer to P1 even though Chiyo evidently contradicted this notion by contending that the Akatsuki refused to target Naruto not because of Jiraiya, but because the Akatsuki needed ample preparation for sealing away Bijuu. [1]

 Then there's the whole lecture where Itachi's keen insight denoted that Konoha should be the last village targeted because Konoha held strong ties with the other villages, so simply targeting their village would attract unnecessary intention which could interfere with their own plan and Kurama could only be absorbed last.

 I'm honestly not sure how people believe Itachi's portrayal is inferior when much of Jiraiya's portrayal in respect to Itachi was contradicted.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 19, 2017)

Itachi is a better Shinobi than Hashirama

This is where I lost faith in humanity itself

Reactions: Funny 2


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 19, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Itachi is a better Shinobi than Hashirama
> 
> This is where I lost faith in humanity itself



 Hashirama loses to Kisame, so yeah, Itachi defeats Hashirama.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 19, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Hashirama turns Kisame into blue dust



ftfy

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Jan 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Killer Bee would likely win via feats with BM, although Minato has better portrayal
> 
> Kinda similar to what im saying this itachi Vs jman matchup is honestly
> 
> ...



When did Bee "tank" his own Bjuiidama? I'm pretty sure homie was forced back into Base when his Bjuiidama hit his body.

Minato would weave his ass all day and warp a Bjuiidama right into his eyebrows like portrayal would dictate.


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## Ishmael (Jan 19, 2017)

All I read in the title was God vs man and we all know how that turns out, itachi looks at jiraiya once and it's light out.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 20, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Youre the one who brought it up genius...
> 
> This is hilariously ironic
> 
> ...




Show me anywhere that suggests that J-man's hype is superior to Itachi's? 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Killer Bee would likely win via feats with BM, although Minato has better portrayal
> 
> Kinda similar to what im saying this itachi Vs jman matchup is honestly
> 
> ...




What better portrayal exactly?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 20, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Show me anywhere that suggests that J-man's hype is superior to Itachi's?


For the love of...

Do me solid, and look up the definition of the word "noncommittal" before you ask me anything else about jmans hype or portrayal. 



Sapherosth said:


> What better portrayal exactly?


Its said he fought A/B several times over the course of the war and they never beat him.

Stalemating B and his bro repeatedly over the years is superior hype to being one of the bros that got stalemated agreed?

Then we have...

"I believe that only you [Naruto] can surpass the Fourth Hokage."
Kakashi

"There was never a man that could surpass him [Fourth Hokage] "
AAAA, pretty sure he put minato above Bee here as well, considering he knows Bee personally

"That unrivalled strength [Minato], that carefree smile..
Kishi himself

"Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind."
Jman

"You deserve the title of Fourth Hokage..Managing to wound me and wrest the fox from my control in one move"
Obito

" I am proud of the unity of Iwagakure , although , we are proud we sent 1000 shinobi from our men , i hear that it took only one man from the hidden leaf , the yellow flash , to stop the invasion "
Onoki

"Minato had the sort of talent you only find once in a decade. We haven't had another genius like him since."
Jiraiya to Tsunade. Two of the Legendary sannin and extraordinary shinobi in their own right

But as i said, id still give Bee the edge with his BM feats.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 20, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> For the love of...
> 
> Do me solid, and look up the definition of the word "noncommittal" before you ask me anything else about jmans hype or portrayal.





Just sit down...You obviously don't know your shit. 




> Its said he fought A/B several times over the course of the war and they never beat him.



Probably because he was busy using FTG to run away. 



> Stalemating B and his bro repeatedly over the years is superior hype to being one of the bros that got stalemated agreed?



Running away with FTG doesn't really count as "stalemating".



> Then we have...
> 
> "I believe that only you [Naruto] can surpass the Fourth Hokage."
> Kakashi





Completely contradicted when we have guys like Nagato running around wrecking shit up. 



> "There was never a man that could surpass him [Fourth Hokage] "
> AAAA, pretty sure he put minato above Bee here as well, considering he knows Bee personally



The statement is wrong the moment he said "there was never a man that could surpass him". There was. 




> "That unrivalled strength [Minato], that carefree smile..
> Kishi himself





So this hyperbolic statement for Minato counts now huh, but for other characters it doesn't? Don't get me started on Kishi's statement about other characters in the databook. 

What a hypocrite. 



> "Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind."
> Jman



Funny how he said that when he already trained Nagato 




> "You deserve the title of Fourth Hokage..Managing to wound me and wrest the fox from my control in one move"
> Obito



Not sure how this is any hype whatsoever. 



> " I am proud of the unity of Iwagakure , although , we are proud we sent 1000 shinobi from our men , i hear that it took only one man from the hidden leaf , the yellow flash , to stop the invasion "
> Onoki



Many high tier ninja's have done the same lmao. Even Sasuke before absorbing defeated 1000 shinobi without a scratch. 

AAA held off 30,000 people. That shit right there doesn't even compare.



> "Minato had the sort of talent you only find once in a decade. We haven't had another genius like him since."
> Jiraiya to Tsunade. Two of the Legendary sannin and extraordinary shinobi in their own right



Itachi received similar hype, but wait, they don't count. 




> But as i said, id still give Bee the edge with his BM feats.




All of the hype you've listed are superficial at best, but since it's Minato, it must be true right?

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 20, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Completely contradicted when we have guys like Nagato running around wrecking shit up.
> 
> The statement is wrong the moment he said "there was never a man that could surpass him". There was.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for proving my earlier point

You gave itachi the benefit of the doubt in exactly the same scenarios



Sapherosth said:


> Just sit down...You obviously don't know your shit.


So again, you didnt read my post, good to know.

Im done with you at this point

Dont get why you continue to ask me to justify a line of thinking i dont believe in either

Every five seconds you ask me to prove Jman>Itachi in hype when i outright stated i didnt give a shit one way or the other

And i went on to say even IF jmans hype was better, itachi has better feats so id give him the win

Yet you keep asking me to prove Jman>itachi...

Do you see why that makes no sense?

You sit down

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## UltimaDude (Jan 20, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> I don't think it was ever implied that the Hiraishin tag could be felt. Obito didn't feel it and neither did the Iwagakure Jonin.
> 
> It's also a reason why it's that dangerous, you don't feel else but a touch, and in the middle of the combat, you don't even feel or focus on a touch.


But Bee did feel that Minato touched him and he must've figured that Minato places the FTG seal to whatever he touches and teleports there. There was no other way that Bee had his sword out when Minato teleported behind him


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## Sapherosth (Jan 20, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thank you so much for proving my earlier point
> 
> You gave itachi the benefit of the doubt in exactly the same scenarios
> 
> ...





Hahaha, you don't give Itachi the benefit of the doubt because it "contradicts" the manga, yet YOU give Minato the benefit of the doubt when it also contradicts the manga.

That's called hypocrisy my friend.....

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 20, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Hahaha, you don't give Itachi the benefit of the doubt because it "contradicts" the manga, yet YOU give Minato the benefit of the doubt when it also contradicts the manga.
> 
> That's called hypocrisy my friend.....


Wasnt giving him the benefit of the doubt, posted those quotes cuz i knew youd call me out on em

And i knew youd call me out despite the fact you gave itachi the benefit of the doubt in an earlier post

Cuz yay for double standards


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## Troyse22 (Jan 20, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> but since it's Minato, it must be true right?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2017)

I am enthused by the increased awareness of my truthful proclamation. Tis be a good day when we finally banish this Jiraiya and Minato wanking permanently.

 I will keep writing more proclamations and ensure that this blasphemous worship is eliminated.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Creative 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 21, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I am enthused by the increased awareness of my truthful proclamation. Tis be a good day when we finally banish this Jiraiya and Minato wanking permanently.
> 
> I will keep writing more proclamations and ensure that this blasphemous worship is eliminated.



Good luck with that.

Even with a panel saying that Jiraiya is non-factor against Akatsuki's plans they still wouldn't believe it and would still claim Jiraiya's the one stopping Akatsuki from taking Naruto.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 21, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I am enthused by the increased awareness of my truthful proclamation. Tis be a good day when we finally banish this Jiraiya and Minato wanking permanently.
> 
> I will keep writing more proclamations and ensure that this blasphemous worship is eliminated.


This will never end
One side thinks their character is underrated  and viceversa .


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## Troyse22 (Jan 21, 2017)

professor83 said:


> This will never end
> One side thinks their character is underrated  and viceversa .




Idk, I think Itachi is more fairly rated than when I first joined the NBD, but together me and HoN dismantled that blatant Itachi wank.

I don't think Jiraiya Is overrated, but the entire title of Sannin is. There are genuinely those who think "x wins because they're a Sannin" is a valid argument


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 21, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I think Itachi is more fairly rated than when I first joined the NBD,


Yeah things have changed over 1 or 2 years


Troyse22 said:


> There are genuinely those who think "x wins because they're a Sannin" is a valid argument


They were trained by . . . So one would expect that


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 21, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I am enthused by the increased awareness of my truthful proclamation. Tis be a good day when we finally banish this Jiraiya and Minato wanking permanently.
> 
> I will keep writing more proclamations and ensure that this blasphemous worship is eliminated.


Says the guy who thinks 3T Kakashi can beat Minato!

Reactions: Winner 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Says the guy who thinks 3T Kakashi can beat Minato!



I actually don't believe that, but keep talking Mr. "Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi" even though Itachi kicked his ass and the stronger DSM Kabuto multiple times throughout the story.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Idk, I think Itachi is more fairly rated than when I first joined the NBD, but together me and HoN dismantled that blatant Itachi wank.
> 
> I don't think Jiraiya Is overrated, but the entire title of Sannin is. There are genuinely those who think "x wins because they're a Sannin" is a valid argument



 He was more fairly rated before you even arrived to this site, before any of the Minato wankers popped up.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 21, 2017)

Itachi more fairly rated back then...

Saying him being fairly rated now is a stretch, but back then... Hell to the fuck no.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Jan 21, 2017)

3T Kakashi beats Minato, i can confirm. No need to be afraid Uchihax28, we can beat them anyday of the week. In case not, i'll call my boys, Kakashi's witnesses for help.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Itachi more fairly rated back then...
> 
> Saying him being fairly rated now is a stretch, but back then... Hell to the fuck no.



 Join Date: July 26, 2016

 I shouldn't have to respond to such vacuity.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 21, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Join Date: July 26, 2016
> 
> I shouldn't have to respond to such vacuity.


jerk. Before I joined NF, I used to scope through threads in here and I witness atrocious wanking in favor of Itachi, let's not forget he wqw getting wanked on gamefaqs, comicvine, reddit, a e Naruto base as well.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 21, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Itachi more fairly rated back then...
> 
> Saying him being fairly rated now is a stretch, but back then... Hell to the fuck no.


Back then?
Yes, he was even underrated I'd argue, with people arguing that Spiral Zetsu who got clowned by Karin would mid diff him.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> jerk. Before I joined NF, I used to scope through threads in here and I witness atrocious wanking in favor of Itachi, let's not forget he wqw getting wanked on gamefaqs, comicvine, reddit, a e Naruto base as well.



 I'll believe it when I see it.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 21, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Back then?
> Yes, he was even underrated I'd argue, with people arguing that Spiral Zetsu who got clowned by Karin would mid diff him.


A couple of morons, don't make up for the entirety of the NF.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 21, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> A couple of morons, don't make up for the entirety of the NF.


What?
Literally everyone argued for Spiral Zetsu beating him. Ill link the thread if needed.

Only people in there debating for Itachi were Saph and Grimmjow as usual.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 21, 2017)

Itachi>Any sannin individually imo

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Jan 21, 2017)

Itachi might be a bit underrated now but in no shape or form was he "fairly rated" in the past forums. Y'all really act like you forgot about the Itachi vs Gokage or Itachi vs Sannin threads? Those shits were ridiculous.


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## Dr. White (Jan 21, 2017)

There has always been a dichotomy of Itachi fans who are good debaters and sometimes bias over their one of their faves, and the batshit insane bias fans who have not an ounce of objectivity and don't really come to debate but spew their gospel. Much like pretty much any fan base. Characters like Itachi, Minato, etc have fanbases of higher number so it's easier to see trends with them. To counter out the Itachi fan boys there have always been Itachi haters who are the opposite of the overly subjective fans ala Ultimate deadpool, Elite Uchiha (one of my fav posters though), Vice, Hussain and Munboy. Granted they can sometimes be objective about Itachi they are generally the Dave Chappele hate group of Itachi's character.

Here is a thread from 2012 and it didn't get that much hate at all. 

Some KL trolling back in the day. 






This thread is a gem of our Itachi love as well 

For battledome as Veracity said people have generally thought well of Itachi and even neutral fans would give him good odds of soloing the sannin as an Edo and what not. I think overall people tend to dislike Uchiha and view them negatively but overall Itachi and Sauce get treated right. I'd say it's actually worse now Imo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 21, 2017)

Did you all forget that Itachi TnJ'd Orochimaru into becoming a good guy?


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## Divell (Jan 21, 2017)

I'm actually gonna go with Itachi here. While Jiraiya may have raw power advantage, SM won't be able to trump Susanoo, Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. Itachi has far too many versatilities to counter Jiraiya, who is mostly strength based.


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## Duhul10 (Jan 22, 2017)

Divell said:


> I'm actually gonna go with Itachi here. While Jiraiya may have raw power advantage, SM won't be able to trump Susanoo, Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. Itachi has far too many versatilities to counter Jiraiya, who is mostly strength based.



How is Itachi more versatile when he only has 3 jutsus that can actually do something to Jiraiya ? Jiraiya has 3 jutsus when Itachi is in susanoo, but outside of it every sm jutsu can kill Itachi without an issue. Jiraiya has counters to every one of the jutsus.
Susanoo- Yomi numa, sound based jutsus
Amaterasu- hari jizo, clones, Senpo COR to block the LOS, Jiraiya also has his bodyguard toad who can appear out of nowhere xD ( an exaggeration of course )
Tsukuyomi- the frogs are there to disrupt the chakra flow + with knowledge Jiraiya will definitely avoid looking Itachi in the eyes when the latter activates MS.

Not saying  Jiraiya has this for sure. IMO this is a 50/50 , maybe even a 60/40 for Itachi if Jiraiya starts in base.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 22, 2017)

Duhul10 said:


> How is Itachi more versatile when he only has 3 jutsus that can actually do something to Jiraiya ? Jiraiya has 3 jutsus when Itachi is in susanoo, but outside of it every sm jutsu can kill Itachi without an issue. Jiraiya has counters to every one of the jutsus.
> Susanoo- Yomi numa, sound based jutsus
> Amaterasu- hari jizo, clones, Senpo COR to block the LOS, Jiraiya also has his bodyguard toad who can appear out of nowhere xD ( an exaggeration of course )
> *Tsukuyomi- the frogs are there to disrupt the chakra flow* + with knowledge Jiraiya will definitely avoid looking Itachi in the eyes when the latter activates MS.
> ...


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 22, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Idk, I think Itachi is more fairly rated than when I first joined the NBD, but together me and HoN dismantled that blatant Itachi wank.


The Itachi-Wank died the day IzayaOrihara left -- turns out it only existed to taunt him. It's been a while since I have seen some outright crap-shit about Itachi even on this thread most of it reasonable nothing out of the ordinary imo. The only time I was battling Itachi Fanboysim was when Izaya was here posting Itachi threads left and right.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 22, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> The Itachi-Wank died the day IzayaOrihara left -- turns out it only existed to taunt him. It's been a while since I have seen some outright crap-shit about Itachi even on this thread most of it reasonable nothing out of the ordinary imo. The only time I was battling Itachi Fanboysim was when Izaya was here posting Itachi threads left and right.




Not sure why you're still wasting time with Troyse22. He still hasn't read the manga yet. You should let him catch up first.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 22, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Not sure why you're still wasting time with Troyse22. He still hasn't read the manga yet. You should let him catch up first.


In what sense am I wasting my time? If you mean challenging him on his Kisame debates then you're right it is a waste of time but mehh .. he keeps saying he has defeated me in debates and calls me nbd trash so why not just take a frontal approach and get in his face about it I'm going with the flow -- if you mean battling Itachi Fanboyism I have never done that with him .. only Izaya.


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## Divell (Jan 22, 2017)

Duhul10 said:


> How is Itachi more versatile when he only has 3 jutsus that can actually do something to Jiraiya ? Jiraiya has 3 jutsus when Itachi is in susanoo, but outside of it every sm jutsu can kill Itachi without an issue. Jiraiya has counters to every one of the jutsus.
> Susanoo- Yomi numa, sound based jutsus
> Amaterasu- hari jizo, clones, Senpo COR to block the LOS, Jiraiya also has his bodyguard toad who can appear out of nowhere xD ( an exaggeration of course )
> Tsukuyomi- the frogs are there to disrupt the chakra flow + with knowledge Jiraiya will definitely avoid looking Itachi in the eyes when the latter activates MS.
> ...


Remember Izanagi and izanami, the generous sword, etc. Is not like itachi, a master strategists, is gonna stand around, he is arguable faster and with exploding clones or Izanagi as a bite, totsuka sword ends it


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## Troyse22 (Jan 22, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Not sure why you're still wasting time with Troyse22. He still hasn't read the manga yet. You should let him catch up first.







HandfullofNaruto said:


> he keeps saying he has defeated me in debates







HandfullofNaruto said:


> and calls me nbd trash



Don't be trash then 



HandfullofNaruto said:


> why not just take a frontal approach and get in his face about it





HandfullofNaruto said:


> if you mean battling Itachi Fanboyism I have never done that with him




Perhaps i'm misremembering, could have been another person


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 22, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Perhaps i'm misremembering, could have been another person


well since I stopped battling itachi fanboyism alongside Izaya I haven't really noticed it so - keep it up i suppose ...?


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## Duhul10 (Jan 22, 2017)

Divell said:


> Remember Izanagi and izanami, the generous sword, etc. Is not like itachi, a master strategists, is gonna stand around, he is arguable faster and with exploding clones or Izanagi as a bite, totsuka sword ends it



Izanami is useless in this situation and Itachi doesn't have izanagi by my reckoning.  I don't consider him to be faster than SM Jiraiya. Comparable? Probably.  Base Jiraiya ? Yeah of course.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 22, 2017)

Duhul10 said:


> Izanami is useless in this situation and Itachi doesn't have izanagi by my reckoning.  I don't consider him to be faster than SM Jiraiya. Comparable? Probably.  Base Jiraiya ? Yeah of course.



 I question the basis for this. Itachi's speed feats eclipses SM Jiraiya's.


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## Duhul10 (Jan 23, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I question the basis for this. Itachi's speed feats eclipses SM Jiraiya's.


His only notable speed feats are a part of his edo self. Alive Itachi couldn't dodge shurikens and fireballs. 
The so-called " healthy " Itachi might get his edo feats, but even then that would definitely not be enough to pressure Jiraiya, who was literally zapping around the paths ( the part where he took them on for the first time, maybe zapping is a little too much to say though  ) . Remember that the paths casually react from no matter what distances to FRS


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## Turrin (Jan 24, 2017)

I don't see how someone whose being intellectually honest can question how it's possible that Jiraiya could combat Itachi after the Kabuto fight & DBIV. We literally saw Kabuto use SM Sensing to react to Mangekyo attacks and ether physical evade or use Senjutsu techniques to counter. And DBIV tells us Jiraiya (& Pa) can use SM-Sensing with enough skill to be able to employee Kawazu Kumite, which relies on sensing the enemies movements in detail and delivering precise counters. And even if Jiraiya wasn't quite as good as Kabuto in Sensing (though there is no evidence of that whatsoever), Jiraiya (& Pa) don't need to be quite that good, as Kabuto was using SM-Sensing to react to and deal with the attacks of not 1 but 2 Mangekyo users simultaneously, while Jiraiya only will be dealing with Itachi alone. And as far as Senjutsu techniques go, the ones that proved primarily effective against both Itachi's and Sasuke's Mangekyo Techniques were sound-based, Jiraiya possess Sound based Senjutsu as well, arguably an even more powerful one than Kabuto (Frog-Song).

So if Kishi wanted Jiraiya to combat Itachi's Mangekyo, it's pretty obvious to me how he could do it, having Jiraiya (& Pa) use SM-Sensing combined with Senjutsu-Techs (Primarily Sound Based) to take him on.

--------

The only question for me is whether Kishi believes Jiraiya can do this, which is a topic that has been done to death. I believe there is a ton of evidence in the manga one can point to, that indicates Kishi does consider Jiraiya to be roughly equal to Itachi, but I won't bother to go into that for the 1millionth time, unless someone is generally interested and on the fence.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Rocky (Jan 25, 2017)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how someone whose being intellectually honest can question how it's possible that Jiraiya could combat Itachi after the Kabuto fight & DBIV. We literally saw Kabuto use SM Sensing to react to Mangekyo attacks and ether physical evade or use Senjutsu techniques to counter. And even if Jiraiya wasn't quite as good as Kabuto in Sensing (though there is no evidence of that whatsoever)...




Kabuto & his snakes had their unique thermal & olfactory sensory abilities that allowed them to accurately sense Itachi & Sasuke _without vision_, and then those senses were further enhanced by Sage Mode. Jiraiya can't do that. If Kishi thought Sage Mode alone was mary sue enough to combat ocular genjutsu, he wouldn't have bothered with all the snake-unique shit prior to Kabuto going into Sage Mode. 


Turrin said:


> Kabuto was using SM-Sensing to react to and deal with the attacks of not 1 but 2 Mangekyo users simultaneously, while Jiraiya only will be dealing with Itachi alone.


Neither Mangekyō user was attempting to kill Kabuto, so he didn't really have to "deal" with their techniques. They had to deal with his...and they did.


Turrin said:


> So if Kishi wanted Jiraiya to combat Itachi's Mangekyo, it's pretty obvious to me how he could do it, having Jiraiya (& Pa) use SM-Sensing combined with Senjutsu-Techs (Primarily Sound Based) to take him on.


Kabuto didn't use "SM-Sensing" to counter Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu because Itachi couldn't use either of those techniques on Kabuto. 

The only technique Kabuto was able to stop momentarily was Susanoo, and that was with genjutsu, which Jiraiya stinks at. Itachi maintained a basic Susanoo under the effects of Hakugeki, so sound techniques don't even auto-win against that. Gamarinshō could work, but with how situational it is there's no telling if Jiraiya would even be able to pull it off.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2017)

Rocky said:


> Kabuto & his snakes had their unique thermal & olfactory sensory abilities that allowed them to accurately sense Itachi & Sasuke _without vision_, and then those senses were further enhanced by Sage Mode. Jiraiya can't do that. If Kishi thought Sage Mode alone was mary sue enough to combat ocular genjutsu, he wouldn't have bothered with all the snake-unique shit prior to Kabuto going into Sage Mode.
> 
> Neither Mangekyō user was attempting to kill Kabuto, so he didn't really have to "deal" with their techniques. They had to deal with his...and they did.


He bothered with all that Snake shit prior to SM, so Kabuto had a way to defend himself while covering his eyes, prior to SM. However after Kabuto reaches SM, SM sensing alone was credit to Kabuto's ability to react to the Uchiha-Bros attacks and at no point did Kishimoto, Kabuto, or ether Bros, in the Manga or Data-books credit any part of that to Kabuto's Snake Senses.



> Neither Mangekyō user was attempting to kill Kabuto, so he didn't really have to "deal" with their techniques. They had to deal with his...and they did.


So they used no techniques against Kabuto at any point in the battle LOL

Deidara also didn't have killer intent against Gaara. Pain didn't have killer intent against Naruto. Kabuto himself didn't have killer intent against Sasuke. Doesn't change the fact that they had to deal with each others techniques.



> Kabuto didn't use "SM-Sensing" to counter Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu because Itachi couldn't use either of those techniques on Kabuto.


Kabuto countered Tsukuyomi by avoiding eye contact, he did this by covering his eyes, which he was able to do thanks to SM-Sensing.

Kabuto also was able to react to Sasuke's Amaterasu thanks to SM-Sensing. 



> The only technique Kabuto was able to stop momentarily was Susanoo, and that was with genjutsu, which Jiraiya stinks at. Itachi maintained a basic Susanoo under the effects of Hakugeki, s


Kabuto countered all of Itachi's Genjutsu save Izanami via SM-Sensing enabling him to fight blind. He showed the ability to react to Amaterasu thx to SM-Sensing as well. He also was evading/defending Susano'o attacks thanks to his Senjutsu and SM-Sensing. Defensively he showed the ability to defend all of the Brothers Mangekyo Techniques and it required them to combine forces to overwhelm him and land blows on him.

When talking about offense. Kabuto neutralized Susano'o with sound based Senjutsu, which Jiraiya has access to. And sure Itachi was able to still manifest a Stage 1 Susano'o piece while under the effect of Haguki, but there are plenty of Jutsu that can break through Stage 1 Susano'o, so that's not a big deal for a Sage. Kabuto was only halted there because his objective was to swallow Sasuke whole capturing him alive, not to kill Sasuke. 



> o sound techniques don't even auto-win against that.


No one said they were, so please don't start your argument attacking a straw-man already

My point was that Sound-Based Senjutsu has been shown to be effective against Mangekyo Users.



> Gamarinshō could work, but with how situational it is there's no telling if Jiraiya would even be able to pull it off.


I fail to see how Gamarinsho is situational. It requires time for the Toads to harmonize but that is the case in every situation it's used. So what this comes down to is can SM-Jiriaya hold off Itachi long enough for the Toads to harmonize, I think he can do it, albeit with High/Extreme diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Jan 25, 2017)

Rocky debating Turrin? ?I must have timewarped to 2012

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Rocky (Jan 25, 2017)

@Turrin

Nowhere in the story does it say that Kabuto would have been able to fight blind without his snake-like senses. When he avoided Sasuke's arrow, he said that his sensory ability had been enhanced..._which would mean_ _the thermal & olfactory senses he had been using to track the Uchiha brothers had been enhanced. _Sage Mode heightens the six senses. There's no seventh sense. Jiraiya will be able to hear Itachi, smell Itachi, and even sense Itachi's chakra, but even Jiraiya himself admits that chakra sensing is not an adequate substitute for vision. Kabuto relied on super snake-ninja senses, whereas Jiraiya would be relying on super normal-ninja senses.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 25, 2017)

Rocky said:


> @Turrin
> 
> Nowhere in the story does it say that Kabuto would have been able to fight blind without his snake-like senses. When he avoided Sasuke's arrow, he said that his sensory ability had been enhanced..._which would mean_ _the thermal & olfactory senses he had been using to track the Uchiha brothers had been enhanced. _Sage Mode heightens the six senses. There's no seventh sense. Jiraiya will be able to hear Itachi, smell Itachi, and even sense Itachi's chakra, but* even Jiraiya himself admits that chakra sensing is not an adequate substitute for vision. *Kabuto relied on super snake-ninja senses, whereas Jiraiya would be relying on super normal-ninja senses.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 25, 2017)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya will be able to hear Itachi, *smell Itachi*



@ bold

Oro will acquire SM just for that purpose

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Baroxio (Jan 26, 2017)

Now that I think about it, Kabuto catching Itachi with Mugen Onsa doesn't mean that Jiraiya's Gamarinsho will be just as effective. If anything, it shows us that Itachi can beat audio-based genjutsu by layering visual genjutsu on top of it. 

Itachi has the ability to create clones that are capable of genjutsu. Combine this with the fact that Gamarinsho has a slight delay between the sound reaching the opponent and it's activation, it shouldn't be impossible to ready a counter as necessary.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 26, 2017)

Baroxio said:


> Now that I think about it, Kabuto catching Itachi with Mugen Onsa doesn't mean that Jiraiya's Gamarinsho will be just as effective. If anything, it shows us that Itachi can beat audio-based genjutsu by layering visual genjutsu on top of it.
> 
> Itachi has the ability to create clones that are capable of genjutsu. Combine this with the fact that Gamarinsho has a slight delay between the sound reaching the opponent and it's activation, it shouldn't be impossible to ready a counter as necessary.




Notice how Kabuto used the technique when Sasuke and Itachi had their backs turned behind a rock suggest that it wouldn't work if they actually saw it coming.

Susano hand can create a gust of wind to blow away the sound like Temari's fan did to Tayuya.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 26, 2017)

Wouldn't Itachi's clones poof if he gets caught in a genjutsu? I don't even remember it being stated that clones can live, when someone's in genjustu.


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## Baroxio (Jan 26, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Wouldn't Itachi's clones poof if he gets caught in a genjutsu? I don't even remember it being stated that clones can live, when someone's in genjustu.



Kakashi's clone didn't poof when caught in Shoten Itachi's genjutsu.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 26, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Wouldn't Itachi's clones poof if he gets caught in a genjutsu? I don't even remember it being stated that clones can live, when someone's in genjustu.




Naruto was caught in Itachi's shadow clone's genjutsu and I don't remember his shadow clones going poof.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 26, 2017)

Baroxio said:


> Kakashi's clone didn't poof when caught in Shoten Itachi's genjutsu.


Yes that was Kakashi's *clone* that was caught in the genjutsu, not the real Kakashi. Read my argument I said when has it been shown, or stated that a clone won't poof, when the *real* person is caught in a genjutsu.


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## Baroxio (Jan 26, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Yes that was Kakashi's *clone* that was caught in the genjutsu, not the real Kakashi. Read my argument I said when has it been shown, or stated that a clone won't poof, when the *real* person is caught in a genjutsu.



Hiruzen + Shadow Clones vs Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness genjutsu.


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## Dr. White (Jan 26, 2017)

Baroxio said:


> Hiruzen + Shadow Clones vs Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness genjutsu.


Not to mention the clone is autonomous to the user until it poofs (obviously can still take direction) which is why the user doesn't gain the experience until then.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 26, 2017)

Baroxio said:


> Hiruzen + Shadow Clones vs Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness genjutsu.


hmm that's weird, why didn't he use your fanfic of escaping, when he had 2 shadow clones with him? Why hasn't anyone used this fanfic way of escaping genjutsu?


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## Baroxio (Jan 26, 2017)

Because Hiruzen has never shown the ability to cast genjutsu on anybody, and likely doesn't use it as his go to tactic?

My "fanfic" way of escaping genjutsu is to do *exactly* what Itachi and Sasuke canoically ended up doing to get out of Mugen Onsa, only with Sasuke being replaced by a genjutsu-capable clone before hand.

Can Itachi's clones cast genjutsu? Yes. 
Can Itachi layer a visual genjutsu over someone else's audio genjutsu, freeing them? Yes.

Where's the fanfic bro? I'll tell you where, in the bullshit made up assertion that you just made of people being unable to have pre-made active clones while caught in genjutsu.


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## Zenith (Jan 26, 2017)

you shouldn't bother with Turrin, he reads a parallel version of the manga altogether

also, holy smokes, things have surely changed here. The blatant amount of Itachi bashing is appalling

notice that scan where Jiraya questions what in the world those black flames were? Imagine if Itachi (who obviously had no ill intent towards his brother's insurance guarantor) decided to target him instead of the frog stomach... we'd have to call the Konoha Police Force to report a case of aggravated arson.

pray and atone for your sins; repeat after me:



> May Tsukuyomi guide you, Amaterasu light the way and Susano'o protect you
> 
> Amen

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sapherosth (Jan 26, 2017)

Haters gonna hate. 


Even when you throw facts in their face they'd still pretend they didn't see it. That's called willful ignorance.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 27, 2017)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how someone whose being intellectually honest can question how it's possible that Jiraiya could combat Itachi after the Kabuto fight & DBIV.



I don't see how someone who's being intellectually honest could compare Jiraiya starting in base to Naruto or Kabuto starting in base, as the latter two showed far superior skills and methods in getting into Sage Mode. If Itachi truly wanted base War Naruto or base Kabuto dead before they entered Sage Mode, he has a decent shot of doing it. Jiraiya has much worse chances.

I don't see how someone who's being intellectually honest could compare Sage Jiraiya to Sage Naruto or Kabuto. Pain Arc Sage Naruto was killing Pain bodies left and right while Sage Jiraiya ran away and relied on his summons' genjutsu. Those same summons that saved Jiraiya flat out stated Naruto surpassed Jiraiya. And War Arc Sage Naruto & Kabuto were different beasts _entirely._

I don't see how someone who's being intellectually honest can acknowledge that the Sharingan can control summons, ninja, tailed beasts, and that Sage Kabuto himself cut off his vision against Itachi for fear of being controlled, but Itachi couldn't control Shima or Fukasaku that have zero knowledge of Itachi.

Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Shima were completely unable to detect Asura sneak up on Jiraiya and rip his arm out. Something tells me they can't fight effectively without vision like Sage Kabuto could against Itachi. Itachi is also much sneakier, trickier, faster, and deadlier than Asura in just about every possible way. If Jiraiya or his summons impair their vision against Itachi, they're toast.

*In short:*

Sage Kabuto (did well against Itachi) > War Arc Sage Naruto > 
CS2 Sasuke (did well against Deidara) > CS2 Kimimaro > CS2 Sick Kimimaro > CS2 Sakon

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Duhul10 (Jan 27, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> I don't see how someone who's being uintellectally honest could even begin to compare Sage Jiraiya with Sage Naruto or Sage Kabuto. Maybe we should recap how well Jiraiya did against 3 Pain bodies versus how well Naruto did against five.


Different scenarios, different mindsets, knowledge etc. Naruto did not get Jiraiya's hype though


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## Sadgoob (Jan 27, 2017)

Duhul10 said:


> Different scenarios, different mindsets, knowledge etc. Naruto did not get Jiraiya's hype though



Fukasaku said Pain Arc Naruto surpassed Jiraiya. I think Fukasaku would know because he was there for Jiraiya entire last battle. And Pain Arc Sage Naruto was much worse than War Arc Sage Naruto or Sage Kabuto in just about every way.

Comparing Jiraiya to Naruto or Kabuto because they all have Sage Mode is like comparing CS2 Juugo to  CS2 Sasuke because they both have CS2. Just because Hebi Sasuke (Sage Kabuto) did decently against Itachi doesn't mean Juugo (Sage Jiraiya) would.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 27, 2017)

Duhul10 said:


> Different scenarios, different mindsets, knowledge etc. Naruto did not get Jiraiya's hype though



 A tool's efficacy is contingent upon the power and skill of the wielder; Naruto and Kabuto has more skill using it, therefore their tool is better.


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## Duhul10 (Jan 27, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Fukasaku said Pain Arc Naruto surpassed Jiraiya. I think Fukasaku would know because he was there for Jiraiya entire last battle. And Pain Arc Sage Naruto was much worse than War Arc Sage Naruto or Sage Kabuto in just about every way.
> 
> Comparing Jiraiya to Naruto or Kabuto because they all have Sage Mode is like comparing CS2 Juugo to  CS2 Sasuke because they both have CS2. Just because Hebi Sasuke (Sage Kabuto) did decently against Itachi doesn't mean Juugo (Sage Jiraiya) would.



Yeah, Naruto Surpassed Jiraiya in his use of the sage arts as he was able to maintain a sage mode without any body modifications other than his eyes. Also Fukasaku stated that Naruto surpassed all his predecessors, does it mean pain arc SM Naruto defeats Minato? No, definitely not.
The comparison it's definitely not good. If anything, it is the other way around, as Jiraiya shits on naruto in base and so would Sasuke do to Juugo. The manga never stated that Naruto's sage mode brings more of a power up than Jiraiya's. Also, Jiraiya's sm gives him other perks, including increased agility, better jumps, bigger punches.


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## Duhul10 (Jan 27, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> A tool's efficacy is contingent upon the power and skill of the wielder; Naruto and Kabuto has more skill using it, therefore their tool is better.



Yes, their tool has some perks confirmed in the manga which jiraiya's has not:
- a lower time necessary to enter sage mode
- they need no assistance to enter sage mode
- no physical modifications for Naruto 
The Manga never told us that Jiraiya is in any way inferior physically compared to Naruto. Base Jiraiya at that point was >>>> Base Naruto
Think about it:
I am Naruto; Vladimir Klitscho is Jiraiya; We both get a bonus; I get a machete, while he only gets a kitchen knife; Do you actually think that I would be able to beat him even though I have a slightly superior weapon ?


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Sensing barrier , shadow clones , shadow manipulation technique , blocking LoS .
> No what's Itachi's answer to audio Genjutsu ?? cuz last i checked , it kicked his butt in the manga .
> Talking about Genjutsu ain't gonna do you good since Itachi is the one who got trolled by audio genjutsu while Jiraiya has never fall for any visual genjutsu in the manga
> Jiraiya has SM , superior Taijutsu , superior Ninjutsu , more elements , sensing , more AoE and range .
> ...



And that's all that needs to be said.


End of conversation.

The Sannin are legends. Itachi is just a horny teenager who killed a couple of sub-Kurenai Level Uchiha (Kurenai is Konoha strongest Genjutsu user, even more than the Sharingan using Uchiha Clan of Konoha from that era, 5 years before Part 1), and was weaker than Shisui who was competent enough to have his eye literally plucked out of the socket by Base Danzo, and was lucky enough to be accepted into Akatsuki where his best feat was being defeated by Hebi Sasuke. End of conversation. Sannin > Shitachi.

_Anyway let me log off now before this turns into a war. You won't see me again for another 4 months. Goodbye all._


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## Troyse22 (Feb 9, 2017)

IzayaOrihara said:


> And that's all that needs to be said.
> 
> 
> End of conversation.
> ...




Gross.

To think Jiraiya can handle Itachi and Kisame at the same time is fucking laughable.

Reactions: Like 2


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Gross.
> 
> To think Jiraiya can handle Itachi and Kisame at the same time is fucking laughable.


Fuck you.

Just as gross is thinking Itachi can defeat someone the manga said he couldn't not. I'm more likely to believe Kishimoto than a mindless troll like you. Jiraiya was a match for Pain. What makes you think Itachi can-

-you know what, I'm not even going to bother with you. I've seen you're old debates. You have one of the lowest IQs amongst the posters on this forum.

Jiraiya has Sound Genjutsu and a Rasengan that can blow up a mountain (Chou Oodama Rasengan) and Yatai Kuzushi (can drop a Bijuu sized toad on someone's head in 0.00001 seconds) and Yomi Numa (hax swamp) and all other sorts of hax so who knows maybe he can take on a horny teenager and a big blue fish. I never said he could beat them. And you say "to think Jiraiya can handle" ...

But I am not the one that said that. It was Kishimoto who did. He wrote the manga, not me. I just follow it. You disregarding my debate is like a Christian saying that Jesus did not exist. It just doesn't make sense. Either you obey the manga or you don't.

If you do, you are correct. If you do not, you are wrong. Either way I don't really want to be in these debates, I am just going to take a step back. Sorry if anything in my post insulted you. You know how I can get with these Sannin/Itachi debates. In future just don't tag me and leave me completely out of it. I'll say what I have to say and that's it. What I said was right, so there was no need for you to try and rebut.

The End.


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Gross.
> 
> To think Jiraiya can handle Itachi and Kisame at the same time is fucking laughable.



Beating either would be almost impossible for him
So both would kill him

Reactions: Funny 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I am enthused by the increased awareness of my truthful proclamation. Tis be a good day when we finally banish this Jiraiya and Minato wanking permanently.
> 
> I will keep writing more proclamations and ensure that this blasphemous worship is eliminated.


Lol. Meanwhile you promote Itachi wank. 

Hypocrite.


UchihaX28 said:


> He was more fairly rated before you even arrived to this site, before any of the Minato wankers popped up.


Itachi was never fairly rated. He's always been overrated.



Troyse22 said:


> Idk, I think Itachi is more fairly rated than when I first joined the NBD, but together me and HoN dismantled that blatant Itachi wank.
> 
> I don't think Jiraiya Is overrated, but the entire title of Sannin is. There are genuinely those who think "x wins because they're a Sannin" is a valid argument


You and @HandfullofNaruto? No, that was me.

Don't you dare take the credit for something I accomplished. I was just talking with him now. He was telling me how ever since I've been gone people have still been tagging me, name dropping me, talking about me. The impact I've had on this forum will never be forgotten.

Sorry if I'm mixing you up with someone else but arent you the one who was saying Kisame > Pain, Sannin, Minato etc? Or was that someone else. Either way you don't seem to know your stuff most of the time anyway.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> The Itachi-Wank died the day IzayaOrihara left -- turns out it only existed to taunt him. It's been a while since I have seen some outright crap-shit about Itachi even on this thread most of it reasonable nothing out of the ordinary imo. The only time I was battling Itachi Fanboysim was when Izaya was here posting Itachi threads left and right.


Exactly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 9, 2017)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Fuck you.
> 
> Just as gross is thinking Itachi can defeat someone the manga said he couldn't not. I'm more likely to believe Kishimoto than a mindless troll like you. Jiraiya was a match for Pain. What makes you think Itachi can-
> 
> ...





IzayaOrihara said:


> Lol. Meanwhile you promote Itachi wank.
> 
> Hypocrite.
> 
> ...



Yes I do believe Kisame is above those Shinobi you mentioned.

Aren't you the idiot who believes Oro is superior to Itachi?

But Itachi negging him twice means nothing right?

Fuck you too.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Serene Grace (Feb 9, 2017)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Fuck you.
> 
> Just as gross is thinking Itachi can defeat someone the manga said he couldn't not. I'm more likely to believe Kishimoto than a mindless troll like you. Jiraiya was a match for Pain. What makes you think Itachi can-
> 
> ...


So you're the Izaya guy everyone was talking about? You don't approve of Itachi wank, so I like you already
hope you stay bro.


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## Bookworm (Feb 9, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> So you're the Izaya guy everyone was talking about? *You don't approve of Itachi* wank, so I like you already
> hope you stay bro.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Android (Feb 9, 2017)

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG IzayaOrihara is back 
Dayymn , and he's already kicking ass 


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> So you're the Izaya guy everyone was talking about? You don't approve of Itachi wank, so I like you already
> hope you stay bro.


Yup , that's the legendary IzayaOrihara

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 9, 2017)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Fuck you.
> The End.





Troyse22 said:


> Fuck you too.





Pure comedy gold. 

At least the 1 thing you both have in common is you hate the moderators

Reactions: Funny 3


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Yes I do believe Kisame is above those Shinobi you mentioned.
> 
> Aren't you the idiot who believes Oro is superior to Itachi?
> 
> ...


So you believe Kisame is stronger than the Six Paths of Pain, and the Legendary Sannin (two of whom Kisame admitted inferiority to on panel)? But I am an idiot for reading that Prime Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru? (The one that got negged twice, not the Prime Oro who was superior to Jiraiya whom Itachi has claimed and displayed inferiority to?)

This is why I left Naruto Forums to begin with. Anyway it's cool. I'm just here on a day visit and it's been as entertaining as ever.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> So you're the Izaya guy everyone was talking about? You don't approve of Itachi wank, so I like you already
> hope you stay bro.


Yes, that is me. I am the Lil' Kim to everyone else's Nicki Minaj. I am a legend around here even though most don't want to admit it. I've already done my time here. I won't be staying any longer after today. Just coming back on a day visit to see how things are. And they haven't improved. So I'll be leaving. Go and talk to @HandfullofNaruto. He'll tell you about all the great things I've done.



GuidingThunder said:


> OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG IzayaOrihara is back
> Dayymn , and he's already kicking ass
> 
> Yup , that's the legendary IzayaOrihara


Haha lol. That's me.



Sapherosth said:


> Pure comedy gold.
> 
> At least the 1 thing you both have in common is you hate the moderators


True say

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 9, 2017)

IzayaOrihara said:


> So you believe Kisame is stronger than the Six Paths of Pain, and the Legendary Sannin (two of whom Kisame admitted inferiority to on panel)? But I am an idiot for reading that Prime Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru? (The one that got negged twice, not the Prime Oro who was superior to Jiraiya whom Itachi has claimed and displayed inferiority to?)
> 
> This is why I left Naruto Forums to begin with. Anyway it's cool. I'm just here on a day visit and it's been as entertaining as ever.
> 
> ...




Yup and i can back up Kisame>6POP

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Yes , he also believes Kisame is stronger than Nagato , Minato , BM Minato , EMS Sasuke , BSM Naruto .
> He believes Kisame has better reaction feats than Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara .
> He thinks Samehada can tank Yagai and is immortale .
> He thinks Kisame can heal from FRS .
> ...


And yet the brain dead degenerate tries to say I am unintelligent. This is why I left in the first place lol. And they used to say I was a fanboy of Orochimaru for reciting facts that were said about him in the manga. Meanwhile we have kids running around here saying Kisame is stronger than the whole of Akatsuki despite admitting inferiority to Jiraiya and Orochimaru as well as Itachi who is weaker than both of them and the Six Paths of Pain. The same Kisame who lost to Gai? The same Kisame whose best feat was defeating Killer Bee? The same Bee who was compared to Raikage? The same one who almost lost to the MS Sasuke who was weaker than the EMS Sasuke who was hyping up Prime Orochimaru? My good God. Nothing does change around here does it?



> Welcome back bro .


Thanks. But you can say goodbye again. Just here on a day visit. This is my last post. I might have a few private conversations but no BD debates. Trolls are already starting to crawl out from under the woodworks. I seem to havd that effect on these people. I am like a light to a pack of moths, or a housewife spraying insecticide underneath the sofa to root out all the dusty, salty cockroaches. Haha, the way they come running out and darting all over the place in fear. Ah ... I do miss NF though. It can be fun at times and I do have a lot of good memories here to last me a lifetime!!!

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Yup and i can back up Kisame>6POP


Wait a minute, I'll invite you to a private conversation. I'm interested in hearing you out (because I can hear out other people's arguments unlike most people here). I already know Pain > Kisame (by a long shot) but I'm bored now. 9PM on a Thursday night. What else do I have to be doing right now?


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## Sapherosth (Feb 9, 2017)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Wait a minute, I'll invite you to a private conversation. I'm interested in hearing you out (because I can hear out other people's arguments unlike most people here). I already know Pain > Kisame (by a long shot) but I'm bored now. 9PM on a Thursday night. What else do I have to be doing right now?






The new challenger arena. All of his arguments are there.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> The new challenger arena. All of his arguments are there.


Nope. Not gonna read that. Doesn't agree with the forum rules. He can start again and debate in my private thread, because in another thread just now today when I asked people to go and read over old Minato/Orochimaru posts they said it was wrong and that I shouldn't be using old material because apparently it's somehow not valid even though it's the same information on the same characters being discussed? I've decided I will treat people on this forum the same way they all treat me. So he can start from scratch if he wants to prove anything to me. You can blame @DaVizWiz for that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 9, 2017)

IzayaOrihara said:


> *Fuck you*.
> 
> Just as gross is thinking Itachi can defeat someone the manga said he couldn't not. I'm more likely to believe Kishimoto than a mindless troll like you. Jiraiya was a match for Pain. What makes you think Itachi can-
> 
> ...




Man you should come back. I did for example. Still, I am trying to avoid trolls or fanboys and so should you ( not necessarilly talking about someone on this thread so far even though some of them are here ). You shouldn't engage troyse in a Kisame debate. The dude probably has posters with Kisame all over his room and maybe even an shrine dedicated to the guy.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 9, 2017)

Duhul10 said:


> The dude probably has posters with Kisame all over his room and maybe even an shrine dedicated to the guy.



It's true, instead of Jesus on a cross hanging in my room, I have Kisame in his water prison sacrificing himself for the greater good

Reactions: Funny 2


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 9, 2017)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Fuck you.
> 
> Just as gross is thinking Itachi can defeat someone the manga said he couldn't not. I'm more likely to believe Kishimoto than a mindless troll like you. Jiraiya was a match for Pain. What makes you think Itachi can-
> 
> ...



 Is that really you Izaya? 

 Btw, didn't you say you were giving up on this site?


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## Troyse22 (Feb 10, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Is that really you Izaya?
> 
> Btw, didn't you say you were giving up on this site?



Orochimaru was being rated reasonably now, he needed to come back


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## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2017)

I knew 
They were one and the same 
The troll levels were off the charts
Welcome back Iza


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 11, 2017)

Duhul10 said:


> Man you should come back. I did for example. Still, I am trying to avoid trolls or fanboys and so should you ( not necessarilly talking about someone on this thread so far even though some of them are here ). *You shouldn't engage troyse in a Kisame debate. The dude probably has posters with Kisame all over his room and maybe even an shrine dedicated to the guy.*


lol I see no reason not to. I defeated the same kind of people who had shrines dedicated to Itachi. I am not arrogant but you have a 99% chance of losing a debate against Izaya. And that's because I don't just come up with stuff from out of the blue sky. I always use information from the manga. How can you go wrong? Same way you can't fail a test at school if you just regurgitate your textbook.


UchihaX28 said:


> Is that really you Izaya?
> 
> Btw, didn't you say you were giving up on this site?


Yes it's me. And yes I am giving up. As I said yesterday (or was it day before I can't even remember) I was just here on a day visit. And I am trying to see what Troy can say about Kidame vs Pain. I just logged on now to see his replies in a private conversation. Other than that I won't be involving myself anywhere in this forum. All I am doing today is just replying to people who have messaged me since by departure and return.



Icegaze said:


> I knew
> They were one and the same
> The troll levels were off the charts
> Welcome back Iza


Lol thanks but don't get too used to me being back. So @Icegaze. Have your debating abilities improved? Or is it same old same old?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 11, 2017)

IzayaOrihara said:


> lol I see no reason not to. I defeated the same kind of people who had shrines dedicated to Itachi. I am not arrogant but you have a 99% chance of losing a debate against Izaya. And that's because I don't just come up with stuff from out of the blue sky. I always use information from the manga. How can you go wrong? Same way you can't fail a test at school if you just regurgitate your textbook.
> 
> Yes it's me. And yes I am giving up. As I said yesterday (or was it day before I can't even remember) I was just here on a day visit. And I am trying to see what Troy can say about Kidame vs Pain. I just logged on now to see his replies in a private conversation. Other than that I won't be involving myself anywhere in this forum. All I am doing today is just replying to people who have messaged me since by departure and return.
> 
> ...


So you are the infamous izaya
We need you to stay longer man


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 11, 2017)

professor83 said:


> So you are the infamous izaya
> We need you to stay longer man


Please don't flatter me, haha, you're the third new poster whose said that to me. So many people asking me to come back and so many hailing my accomplishments on this site yet @Troyse22 had the audacity to call me "arrogant" and say I have a "big ego" despite me telling him that it's everyone else here hyping me up, meanwhile, he's the guy who thinks Kisame is stronger than every single character he admitted and/or displayed inferiority to on panel, and the same guy who wanted to take the credit for my accomplishments (e.g. proving Orochimaru can defeat Itachi). If that isn't the definition of a troll, then I don't know what is. Anyway, you might see me in a few threads here and there. Just, maybe.

But until then ...

*Spoiler*: __ 






HandfullofNaruto said:


> Agreed - at this point when someone is refusing to debate it's either tied to delusion or their inability to properly substantiate their arguments. I don't think you're being arrogant or have a huge ego .. its really just as simple as: If you don't take this debate to the end with me then I have no reason to believe you can substantiate your argument.


Exactly. 
You can give me a call when @Troyse22 decides to man up.
Until then, enjoy yourself and I'll see you all later, have a nice day!!!
Say goodbye to everyone for me!







But like I said yesterday. It's been fun being back for a while. Nothing really has changed around here but it's still fun to be on NF. But you can all see why I left. I haven't actually had a debate with anyone since I've been back. Just people wasting my time as per usual. When I tried to see what was up with @Troyse22 saying Kisame > Narutoverse, he backed out of the debate. @HandfullofNaruto can back that up. And when I asked @DaVizWiz to a Minato vs Orochimaru debate, again, it never happened because he sort of copped out (I understand his reasons for doing so, but at the same I don't understand ...) When I see an interesting thread (meaning one that involves the Sannin (mainly them), Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, Itachi etc) I might get involved. But until then, I see no reason to remain here. I'll just maybe drop a few posts here and there like I did today in the "Byakugo vs Oral Rebirth" Battledome Thread and "Can Orochimaru Survive Decapitation" Library Thread, so you newbies might see me around. I'm honored that you all refer to me as "infamous". It really bigs me up. Thanks!


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