# Tsunade vs. Pain



## Kai (Nov 2, 2015)

Setting: Konoha
Distance: 25 meters
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: Paths have chakra rods and may only use taijutsu.
IC


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## Alex Payne (Nov 2, 2015)

Unless BD-style Katsuyu tactics Tsunade gets pierced in more places than usual. Black Rods are going to paralyze her so regen is useless.


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## Mercurial (Nov 2, 2015)

Deva Path solos. Much much faster than she is (outspeeding KN6; even in an exhausted state casually dodging a point blank surprise hypersonic Rasenshuriken, even taking the luxury of stabbing Naruto's clones that appeared at his sides; keeping up with speedsters like Kakashi and SM Naruto), can easily dodge her punches/kicks and put a chakra rod through her head.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 2, 2015)

Sakura got pierced by one of Madara's chakra rods - it didn't stop her from throwing a super punch at him and regenerating afterwards. And Tsunade is hella more damage resistant than Sakura is.

The only paths that can likely stab Tsunade are Deva and Asura Path anyways, the others don't seem fast enough. Manga knowledge gives Tsunade the upper hand in that she knows of their shared vision - she uses Katsuyu to divide their attention, and then kicks their asses at CQC one by one.

So Tsunade wins, mid difficulty.​​


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## hbcaptain (Nov 2, 2015)

Tsunade's chakra flow wil be probably stopped by the black things but she still can use her Byakogou no Jutsu , if Pain is just limited to Taijutsu then all the avatars will be blitzed , they can easily guard Tsunade's punches but the power is so high , they are not enough durable . Make it high diff for the sannin .


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## Amol (Nov 2, 2015)

Tsunade should be better in Taijutsu, no? 
I mean yeah Pain is stronger than her but he is stronger because of Rinnegan which is restricted here.
Just how weak Tsunade is to lose  against only Taijutsu Pain bodies when she is a Taijutsu specialist?
Jiraiya took down 3 unrestricted paths.
Base Naruto was matching Deva Path in Taijustu. Tsunade can do the same.
SM Naruto broke those rods by simple fleeting impact. Tsunade has more strength than that.
She can punch the ground, disrupt formation of Pain's paths and take them down one by one .
She frankly has more AoE than Pain here.
I see her winning here.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 2, 2015)

Tsunade's strengh is principally due tu his chakra control , she can concentrate a lot of chakra in her punches/kicks and release it at once , it's like if she is using rasengan punch . Her lifting strengh sur is much higher than ordinary but she is not reaching Senjutsu users .


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## nmwn93 (Nov 2, 2015)

I side with tsunade on this. A susanoo sword piercing your spine should incapacitate you but she wasn't incompacitated. She can handle a rod and still land a punch. Pains skin is not harer than madaras susanoo


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## Ghost (Nov 2, 2015)

Amol said:


> Just how weak Tsunade is to lose  against only Taijutsu Pain bodies when she is a Taijutsu specialist?



Tsunade is not a Taijutsu specialist. Guy is. There is a huge difference.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 2, 2015)

Tsunade can win if Jiraiya can
The attacks that killed jiraiya mean nothing to Tsunade


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## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Tsunade is not a Taijutsu specialist. Guy is. There is a huge difference.



No there isn't. They're both taijutsu/close combat specialists. One is power-focused and one is speed-focused.


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## Ghost (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No there isn't. They're both taijutsu/close combat specialists. One is power-focused and one is speed-focused.



Guy has it all. Power, speed and skill. Tsunade only has power going for her. She doesn't have any exceptional skill. Idk how anyone can call her a "Taijutsu specialist". She isn't even better than Deva.


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## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Guy has it all. Power, speed and skill. Tsunade only has power going for her. She doesn't have any exceptional skill. Idk how anyone can call her a "Taijutsu specialist". She isn't even better than Deva.



Unless you're talking gated Gai, his power doesn't compare to Tsunade. Gai can't lift the Washington Monument in base. "Skill" is one of the most ambiguous terms on this board. If I wanted to, I could say that Raikage is as skilled as Gai. I mean, it's true that I've never seen Raikage use a Spin Kick [], but I haven't exactly seen Gai execute a perfect Lariat either...

Tsunade isn't going to dance around during her taijutsu exchanges, regardless of whether or not she's capable of doing so. Why? Because this:



..is unnecessary when you can ignore the other guy's offense:



..and do this when you aren't hitting Susano'o:



She's plenty skilled at what she aims to do.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 2, 2015)

Tsunade gets worn down and killed. Sad but she is too damn 1 dimensional. All pain needs to do is to keep his distance and keep blindsiding her  from various directions simultaneously, whenever she makes a move.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 2, 2015)

LOL at the folks that think Tsunade is a better taijustu user than Gai. That's like saying Orochimaru is better at Genjutsu than Itachi. 





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tsunade gets worn down and killed. Sad but she is too damn 1 dimensional. All pain needs to do is to keep his distance and keep blindsiding her  from various directions simultaneously, whenever she makes a move.


100% agreement. The shared vision and Asuras body modifications are going to be impossible to win against. Tsunade needs AoE ninjutsu based attack to deal with this.


Alex Payne said:


> Unless BD-style Katsuyu tactics Tsunade gets pierced in more places than usual. Black Rods are going to paralyze her so regen is useless.


Yeah, that's what I am seeing here, Nagato could just use Deva/Asura to pump his chakra in and control her. The only thing that resists it is a tailed beast.


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## Bonly (Nov 2, 2015)

Byakugo allows Tsunade to tank their strikes and any stabs she get from chakra rods while eventually kicking all of the paths assess sooner or later



Ryuzaki said:


> LOL at the folks that think Tsunade is a better taijustu user than Gai. That's like saying Orochimaru is better at Genjutsu than Itachi.



El-Oh-El at folks that can't read and think folks(two people) saying that Tsunade is a Taijutsu specialist means that they are saying she's better then Gai upon which neither of the two had said.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 2, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Byakugo allows Tsunade to tank their strikes and any stabs she get from chakra rods while eventually kicking all of the paths assess sooner or later


Chakra control + Soul rip is gg for Tsunade. She can't compete here, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt in that she'll surprise kill one pain but they can just heal over and over again via Narka Path.  



Bonly said:


> El-Oh-El at folks that can't read and think folks(two people) saying that Tsunade is a Taijutsu specialist means that they are saying she's better then Gai upon which neither of the two had said.


Rocky has a big personality it'd be a shame if I just treated him like 1 person


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## Bonly (Nov 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Chakra control + Soul rip is gg for Tsunade. She can't compete here, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt in that she'll surprise kill one pain but they can just heal over and over again via Narka Path.
> 
> 
> Rocky has a big personality it'd be a shame if I just treated him like 1 person



Bro this is like the second time in a second second thread that I've had to point this out to you. OP said "Paths have chakra rods and *may only use taijutsu*" You really got start reading the OP's of a thread


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## Amol (Nov 2, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Tsunade is not a Taijutsu specialist. Guy is. There is a huge difference.


You sir do not understand meaning of Taijitsu Specialist.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 2, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Bro this is like the second time in a second second thread that I've had to point this out to you. OP said "Paths have chakra rods and *may only use taijutsu*" You really got start reading the OP's of a thread



Yah, I didn't see that in the post, normally when people restrict it like that they write something in the title, plus I was on the toilet


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## t0xeus (Nov 2, 2015)

Pein paths obviously lose, they have no taijutsu specialists without usage of ninjutsu and Tsunade can one-shot anyone one-by-one.


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## LostSelf (Nov 2, 2015)

Nagato had his attention divided by 6 and was keeping up with the faster and sharingan user Kakashi at the same time. There's no way Tsunade's speed is going to be troublesome for a Pain who's only focusing on her.

By the end of the day, Pain stabs her and paralyzes her. She'd need to blow up the entire place with punches to avoid so. But that doesn't preven them from reaching her.

Pain wins this.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 2, 2015)

Yeah. Pain avoiding Kakashi's Raikiri while having his attention divided puts him comfortably above Tsunade's speed. Her only option is counterattacking. But Black Rods are Black Rods. Didn't Madara pierce Sakura with his Gudodama Staff? Madara's/Obito's Rods behaved differently either way. Kakashi was able to remove Obito's Rod just fine while Jiraiya was completely helpless after Pain's.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 2, 2015)

You guys mention his attention being divided like it isn't divided here or something.

The disrupting effect of the rods is also delayed. It took a while to mess with Jiraiya and Kakashi was able to form Raikiri before he felt the effects.

Sasori's poison also has the effect of disrupting a person's Chakra but other medical specialists like Sakura and Chiyo were able to perform techniques for a while even after the antidote wore off.

Tsunade's body is more resilient than any of theirs, and her Chakra control more refined, so any path that stabbed Tsunade would be dead before she was paralyzed.


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## LostSelf (Nov 2, 2015)

Is different being divided in different places, while you talk, search, and do different things than being divided while you look in one place.

The sole reason that, in different places, he needs to watch out over different targets and attacks while he talks is way worse than just having it divided against her only, focusing on fighting and not doing different things with different paths in different places.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Is different being divided in different places, while you talk, search, and do different things than being divided while you look in one place.



Maybe so. But Nagato wasn't giving each Pain an equal amount of his attention even then, or Konohamaru wouldn't have ever touched Naraka.

Katsuyu's segmenting ability makes it an excellent attention splitter, though, since acid splashing on you can be lethal just like Tsunade's hands and feet.


And just so I'm not being misinterpreted. I'm _not_ arguing against the claim that _"there's no way Tsunade's speed is going to be troublesome for a Pain who's only focusing on her"_.

I just think she wins anyway.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 2, 2015)

really? You overestimate Naraka. He isn't a fighter and don't underrate Konohamaru cos he's a Genin. If he was your everyday Genin then he wouldn't learn an A Rank Technique like Rasengan (it takes a Jonin at least to learn that) or a B Rank (Asuma's Katon)


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 2, 2015)

why is pain being underestimated hes near unbeatable. The six surround tsunade and stab her with chakra rods till she cant move. there is no way she can land a hit on any path with the others watching. she gets stabbed from every angle, all blindspots and the use of combination attacks and tactics bring her down.


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## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Lord Aizen said:


> because tsunade is nothing but 1 dimensional punches.





Body Pathway Derangement 
Chakra Enhanced Strength 
Chakra Scalpel 
Chakra Transfer Technique 
Combined Summoning Technique 
Creation Rebirth 
Heaven Spear Kick 
Heavenly Foot of Pain 
Katsuyu: Immense Network Healing 
Mystical Palm Technique 
Ninja Art Creation Rebirth ? Strength of a Hundred Technique 
Strength of a Hundred Seal 
Summoning Technique (Slug) 
Transformation Technique 
Yin Seal: Release 



Lord Aizen said:


> Asura path could use the opportunity to rip her head off as she fights the other 5



[YOUTUBE]mSt4tLKNv0A[/YOUTUBE]

Asura Path is the car.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 2, 2015)

1.) Pain did that to a weakened base Jiraiya.

2.) Pain wasn't _dodging_ Sage Mode Jiraiya, he was _blocking_. World of a difference.

3.) The databook statistics are base values. They do not account for things such as Chakra-intensive movements or enhancements, which is why Sakura could blitz Ino when Ino was supposed to be 1.5 tiers faster and why Sakura scores a 3 in strength when in practice she hits a lot harder than people like Naruto and Sasuke who score 3.5s.

4.) Tsunade is more skilled in Taijutsu than Jiraiya.

5.) Tsunade's body is a lot more resilient than Jiraiya's.


Deva couldn't overwhelm Naruto while he was in base and just got kicked around whenever he engaged Sage Naruto. He's not soloing the close-combat oriented member of the Sannin and Fifth Hokage. Neither is Asura for that matter, and thinking the rest of the paths have any shot whatsoever is the mark of a cray cray person.


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## LostSelf (Nov 2, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Maybe so. But Nagato wasn't giving each Pain an equal amount of his attention even then, or Konohamaru wouldn't have ever touched Naraka.



This is true. Even though it still hindered Nagato when he was doing all those things at the same time.

I also wonder if chakra rods would paralyze Katsuyu. It seems Nagato can paralyze when he chooses to, considering he tried to paralyze Naruto right away and the latter countered with Kyuubi. Instead of just stabbing and waiting for it to do it's effect.

Nagato likely has to activate it or apply "pressure" with his chakra.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 2, 2015)

Tsunade dies if she engages in CqC against all 6 

Sure she's going to one shot any path not named Shurado (which would be two-shotted) if Nagato doesn't have the path dodge (which they are quick enough to btw) but unlike the paths.. she can't be in 6 places at once, so she _has_ to play defense

Nagato can afford to sacrifice a one, two or hell even three paths if it means he can get a clear ambush headshot with the others. She is _going to be blindsided_ at some point in time and have a chakra rod rammed through her skull.... and seeing I doubt she's just going to _shrug that shit off_

....She's lampooned into the ground Naruto style by the surviving paths, has her chakra disrupted and the fights ends at that point


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## Clowe (Nov 3, 2015)

Can the Black rods disrupt Tsunade's chakra and prevent her from using her regen Jutsu? If not then I don't see Pain winning using only Taijutsu, when Tsunade can fight while being stabbed by Susanoo size blades.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 3, 2015)

Angry Naruto obviously resisted the effect of the chakra rods by releasing a concentration of chakra around himself, entering KN6 and destroying the rods and freeing himself. 

Byakugou Tsunade has far better chakra control than Pain-arc Naruto & a much larger pool than KN6 Naruto. 

Those rods aren't doing shit to someone who can pour the entirety of a fully charged Byakugou Seal into thousands of splits of a summon nigh instantaneously while at the same time adding Creation Rebirth effects to the chakra. Nagato's chakra disturbance skill isn't better than Tsunade's chakra control skill, she will laugh it off. It is absolutely no different than the bijuu attacking Obito by temporarily breaking his control, or Hashirama resisting Orochimaru's Edo Tensei control outright. Nagato's chakra rods have even less effect on a target than both of the above. 

Now if it were Madara plugging her with the rods, it'd be a different case. He managed to paralyze Edo Tensei Sage Mode Hashirama, and Edo Tensei Tobirama. Partly because he methodically placed them in critical chakra points, but mainly because Madara using his own Rinnegan is 10x better than anyone else using his Rinnegan/it's techniques. 

Not that I think they'll stab her with enough rods to paralyze her at any moment, she'll immediately break any rods that penetrate her body and she's fast enough to tank a rod stab while landing a counter strike. The difference is her single attack will put the adjacent path down for good, which is not even remotely the case reversed. Those rods shouldn't even conceivably slow her down - whether they're already in her or while they're being put in her. She can literally bull through multiple rod stabs as they're stabbing her, and land strikes on the paths. She need not even land a full blown strike, tapping them with a finger means they'll be busted apart by even Base Tsunade (as of Part 1 feat with finger ground tremor).

It should also be noted that the Paths, without being restricted to taijutsu only, and with Jiriaya having little knowledge on Pain, failed to stab Sage Mode, one-armed (One arm = No seals = Limited/No Ninjutsu, half as effective in Taijutsu), critically wounded Jiraiya for an extensive battle in the courtyard. I'd wager Byakugou Tsunade could perform as well as that version of Jiraiya with only taijutsu allowed in this scenario, and essentially full knowledge on the paths.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yah, I didn't see that in the post, normally when people restrict it like that they write something in the title, plus I was on the toilet



So that's where you pull your opinions on Tsunade.

Just kidding.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 3, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Can the Black rods disrupt Tsunade's chakra and prevent her from using her regen Jutsu? If not then I don't see Pain winning using only Taijutsu, when Tsunade can fight while being stabbed by Susanoo size blades.



I don't see why not. 
Those rods held Tobirama and Hashirama in one place.


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## Mercurial (Nov 3, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Guy has it all. Power, speed and skill. Tsunade only has power going for her. She doesn't have any exceptional skill. Idk how anyone can call her a "Taijutsu specialist". She isn't even better than Deva.



This. Finally.



Rocky said:


> Unless you're talking gated Gai, his power doesn't compare to Tsunade. Gai can't lift the Washington Monument in base. "Skill" is one of the most ambiguous terms on this board. If I wanted to, I could say that Raikage is as skilled as Gai. I mean, it's true that I've never seen Raikage use a Spin Kick [], but I haven't exactly seen Gai execute a perfect Lariat either...
> 
> Tsunade isn't going to dance around during her taijutsu exchanges, regardless of whether or not she's capable of doing so. Why? Because this:
> 
> ...



Sadly what she can do ignoring the other guy's offense and when you are hitting Susanoo (so the smashy smashy chakra enhanced punches/kicks) are less effective that speedy taijutsu against strong characters, as they would just evade those hits without any diff.  Armless Orochimaru and Part 1 Kabuto could evade Rusty Tsunade with ease and for a long time, Part 2 Tsunade can be marginally better than Rusty Tsunade, or even much better (which we have neither feats nor reasons to think, as everything she is showed to do and implied to do is drink sake and sign documents) but she is a slowpoke compared to the much faster and more skilled Gai, Kakashi, Itachi, Deva Pain, Minato, Tobirama and so on.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Who would still be faster than Tsuande



How do you figure?



> Naruto wasn't weaker



Naruto was never beaten by a Pain restricted to Taijutsu. 



> And you can't say the same about Kakashi who is a cut above Tsunade for sure and Pain comfortably did this to him.



Wait.

_"The same"_ being what exactly?



> By that math she should have been roof tier in league with the Raikage but she clearly wasn't. Even her chakra-intensive moves will be seen by the Rin'negan and Pain would easily read that, like he did when he confronted her.



Um, no? If it were the case that she _did_ hit roof tier when that was considered why would _that_ put her in league with one of the fastest shinobi in history?

The influence of Chakra (among other things such as specific Jutsu ane even transformations) applies to everybody, it just applies to some more than others. Upping his speed with Chakra is what Raikage is all about (unlike Jiraiya who is primarily a ranged fighter), so it's doubtful that he of all people would be less skilled in the use of Chakra to enhance his movements than Tsunade anyway.

Also, Pain being able to see the Chakra in Tsunade's limbs doesn't make him move any faster.



> SM disagrees with you.



Sage Mode gives Jiraiya a power boost, not a skill boost.

So it doesn't.



> No it isn't, Tsunade cuts and bleeds just as easily Jiriaya.



You know it doesn't follow from Tsunade being injured that she'd be injured by everything Jiraiya would be injured by to the same extent that Jiraiya would be injured by it.

But that isn't what I meant. I meant Tsunade's Senju/Uzumaki body can withstand more severe injuries and continue living. I'm talking _resilience_, not _durability_.



> Both Naruto and Tsunade are in the same tier, Deva Path was basically owning Naruto, his reaction timings were so on point that he dodged two different SM-enhanced FRS and surprise TKB, literally at point blank range, she's not landing a fist, period.



Naruto and Tsunade are in the same tier of base speed values. Tsunade's in a significantly higher tier of Taijutsu skill, though.

Deva didn't own Naruto when he reverted to base in the middle of the fight. He owned clones later on, but they're clones. That's not even close to being the same thing as owning the original Naruto, let alone Tsunade.

Tsunade's reaction timing is pretty good, too. She managed to kick Madara upon emerging from Tenso no Jutsu right in front of him. Considering how fast Tenso no Jutsu is (lightspeed) she wouldn't have seen him until after she and Ay appeared in front of Madara and Mu, at which point they were already close to each other and still closing in fast, yet she still threw a kick in time insted of just colliding with him.

Keeping up with Deva should be well within her capabilities.



> Asura was basically crushed by a giant after taking a beating from Kakashi, he's easily one of the toughest, likewise Human Path had his eyes kicked into the back of his skull and was still moving around and functioning fine. I'd say they have the ability to take hits as well, the only one that showed lack of durability was Preta and perhaps Naraka.



They're resilient, that's for sure. Tsunade hits way harder than Choza and Jiraiya, though, so...


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't see why not.
> Those rods held Tobirama and Hashirama in one place.



Madara's tiny rodling also disintegrated an Ameterasu Susano arrow.  I don't trust those for comparison to Six Path rods.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 3, 2015)

You could argue that Madara's rods are tougher and Madara has stronger chakra, but then, Hashirama is also unmeasurably stronger than Tsunade as well.

I can easily say that the gap between Hashirama and Tsunade is alot bigger than the gap between Madara and Nagato.


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## LostSelf (Nov 3, 2015)

Aren't they the same rod, and it's paralyzing power just having to do with the chakra you use to do so? That's how i've always seen them.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 3, 2015)

Deva's got crushed by a basic rasengan.

Jiraiya pulled out a rod.

Kakashi pulled out his rod.

Tsunade isn't so vastly inferior to her peers that they can deal but she can't.

But whatever, I'm not going to change anyone's mind.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 3, 2015)

Kakashi pulled out the Deva rod.  The one that made him miss raikiri.  I guess you could assume Deva had a completely paralyzed Kakashi in front of him and then let him go because he's retarded.  I'm a proponent of the "Nagato is an Idiot," theory, so I won't complain.


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## LostSelf (Nov 3, 2015)

Well, that was exactly what happened. Nagato briefly paralyzed Kakashi to dodge his attack. After that, he stopped it to talk to him.

You know, a Kakashi crying from pain wouldn't be able to talk well. And Nagato wanted to find Naruto. Plus not taking Kakashi very seriously until he proved to be a dangerous shinobi.

That said, nothing says Nagato cannot apply more pressure to subdue stronger or more resilient enemies. Not everybody has more potent and powerful chakra than him.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 3, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kakashi pulled out the Deva rod.  The one that made him miss raikiri.  I guess you could assume Deva had a completely paralyzed Kakashi in front of him and then let him go because he's retarded.  I'm a proponent of the "Nagato is an Idiot," theory, so I won't complain.



Kakashi did not pull the rod out, he jumped back and Tendo simply kept it's arm extended. Kakashi charged in again with _Raikiri_ and the was smeared across the ground via ST

I can't recall _anyone_ removing a chakra rod from their own person without external help. I.e Fukasaku aiding Jiraiya or Kurama aiding Naruto.


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## Rocky (Nov 3, 2015)

Sage Naruto literally stabbed himself on purpose to track Nagato with senjutsu gps.



Joakim3 said:


> SM Jiraiya ran away when Chikushodo, Ningendo & Gakido extended their chakra blades on Jiraiya, with Nagato planning on killing him _in that exact manner_


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 4, 2015)

I lol'd.



Rocky said:


> Sage Naruto literally stabbed himself on purpose to track Nagato with senjutsu gps.



How could transmitting be active if Naruto can take a dead path rod and stab himself to track the transmission?


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## Joakim3 (Nov 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sage Naruto literally stabbed himself on purpose to track Nagato with senjutsu gps.



Nagato wasn't actively _flowing chakra into it_, he had no idea Naurto was planning on doing what he did. Chakra disruption isn't a passive technique the user _has_ to force their chakra into the target


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## Joakim3 (Nov 4, 2015)

Jiraiya _canonically_ admitted using Taijutsu or Ninjutsu was _suicide_, he had to resort to use a genjustu that can one-shot 99% of the verse?

How does that pertain to how Tsunade survives long enough CqC against 6 people?

All who are equal or faster than her, have the abilities to dodge her strikes via shared vision, and can very much kill her via blindspots head shots, and unlike her can be in 6 places at once


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Jiraiya _canonically_ admitted using Taijutsu or Ninjutsu was _suicide_, he had to resort to use a genjustu that can one-shot 99% of the verse?



He admitted that he was going to die if his taijutsu & ninjutsu weren't going to work. Thing is, they worked, 'cause he later figured out that each body stuck to only one ability. 



Joakim3 said:


> How does that pertain to how Tsunade survives long enough CqC against 6 people?



Jiraiya's taijutsu



Tsunade's taijutsu


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## Joakim3 (Nov 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He admitted that he was going to die if his taijutsu & ninjutsu weren't going to work. Thing is, they worked, 'cause he later figured out that each body stuck to only one ability.



After retreating in the tunnels, having Shima and Fukasaku as think tanks and having multiple ninjutsu that could somewhat counter the paths

How is Tsunade supposed to do all that.. in an open field, with 6 bodies giving her ZERO breaks



Rocky said:


> Jiraiya's taijutsu
> 
> 
> 
> Tsunade's taijutsu



Thats a strength feat?

Again... so being able hit a giant 50m _Sasuno'o_ is somehow equivalent to being able to tag path the can casually blitz Shizune, Ino & company.... is _magnitudes_ more agile, and has back up from 5 other bodies in it's speed realm?


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2015)

Six Paths of Pain restricted to taijutsu <<< Five Mokuton Bunshin wearing Susano'o. It's standard scaling. 

You are simply mistaking Pain for Raikage.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He admitted that he was going to die if his taijutsu & ninjutsu weren't going to work. Thing is, they worked, 'cause he later figured out that each body stuck to only one ability.
> 
> Jiraiya's taijutsu
> 
> ...



Woah, hang on there Rocky, I think Ningendo has an exceptionally high durability. He got he's eyeballs smashed into his skull and still retained mobility and because of that I think Tsunade would need more than a single punch to take him down.


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I think Tsunade would need more than a single punch to take him down.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Six Paths of Pain restricted to taijutsu <<< Five Mokuton Bunshin wearing Susano'o. It's standard scaling.
> 
> You are simply mistaking Pain for Raikage.



Yes but I think the main argument here is the chakra disrupting quality of the black rods.

Tsunade just takes hits and keeps going. I am not sure if she can do the same here.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2015)

Man I never knew that Tsunade is this grossly underrated here.
One would think that she is some random fodder who can't do what tired Base Naruto can do against Deva.
We actually have a moron here claiming that Deva path can alone solo her with Taijitsu only smh.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 4, 2015)

Amol said:


> Man I never knew that Tsunade is this grossly underrated here.
> One would think that she is some random fodder who can't do what tired Base Naruto can do against Deva.
> We actually have a moron here claiming that Deva path can alone solo her with Taijitsu only smh.



You have much and more to learn about the Battledome ​​


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 4, 2015)

People that live in glass homes shouldn't throw stones.





Amol said:


> Man I never knew that Tsunade is this grossly underrated here.
> One would think that she is some random fodder who can't do what *tired Base Naruto *can do against Deva.


Oh right, like Nagato wasn't exhausted at that point.

Fresh Deva Path (taijutsu + chakra rods) > Tsunade, it's actually a proven by the manga.



Amol said:


> *We actually have a moron here claiming* that Deva path can alone solo her with Taijitsu only smh.


 

The irony of this statement is hilarious, but you probably don't even remember though.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 4, 2015)

> Oh right, like Nagato wasn't exhausted at that point.



We know for a fact Deva got stronger as the fight went on.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 4, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> We know for a fact Deva got stronger as the fight went on.



Wut.

All that was highlighted was Deva was able to use CT being closer to Nagato, not that Deva's physical stats took a sharper boost. His ninjutsu is a non-factor in this fight since we are discussing taijutsu only.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 4, 2015)

Deva got more attention and more chakra the more paths died.


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## LostSelf (Nov 4, 2015)

Full powered Deva cannot beat tired Naruto in taijutsu but can keep up with Sharingan precog. Kakashi not being full powered.

We know Kakashi's faster than Tsunade and has precog. So, Naruto doing so doesn't mean Tsunade could, and it would be Naruto better than Kakashi who's better than Tsunade . (talking about speed and being harder to pierce).

Too much hacked arguments, guys. If Deva with attention divided could fend off Kakashi and stab him, yet, couldn't do it with Naruto, it's obvious (to me) that Deva was in worse condition than the one who fought Kakashi. Unless, base Naruto got better than Kakashi.

But why are we talking about Deva Path 1 vs 1, using feats of him being alone? Forgive me if i missed something.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Six Paths of Pain restricted to taijutsu <<< Five Mokuton Bunshin wearing Susano'o. It's standard scaling.
> 
> You are simply mistaking Pain for Raikage.



Again your missing the point

Fighting 5 Lumbering Sasuno'o in CqC =/= fighting 6 humans that are faster than you

The Sasuno'o are massively bigger targets, slower and have no means of circumnavigate Tsuande's regen thus they have to really on physically beating Tsuande until she dies

The paths don't have that burden... They can circumnavigate her healing factor by screwing with her chakra. All are as fast or faster than her, have the reflexes to dodge her attacks and unlike Madara who likes to dick around, will come at her full force from every angle

She takes out a few and gets rods planeted through her brain when she's inevitably blindsided, the end. These aren't regular fodder she's fighting. These are bodies that indavidually can keep up with high-tiers in Taijustu/CqC



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Deva got more attention and more chakra the more paths died.



Nagato was coughing up blood by that point, any and all chakra buffs Tendo _may_ have had, would have been pointless when you consider how much chakra Nagato had left and the physical condition he was in

Everything points out to Nagato/Tendo running on fumes towards the end of the fight


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 4, 2015)

The Paths couldn't stab one arm critically wounded SM Jiraiya 6 on 1, when Jiraiya had no knowledge on Deva, Asura or Human's powers for an extended battle in the courtyard.

With one arm, Jiraiya can't use his entire Senjutsu arsenal, because he cannot perform seals with one hand. 

With one arm, he loses the ability to guard an entire side of his body in taijutsu, and can only use Rasengan with his right arm. 

With a torn off arm, he instantly lost whatever blood was currently fluctuating in it, and it is consistently bleeding out and losing strength, energy and feeling in his body by the second. 

In those exchanges, the Paths weren't restricted to taijutsu- and they still could not further wound Jiraiya in anyway until Animal Path miraculously appeared out of the stomach acid to stab an unsuspecting, exhausted Jiraiya in the shoulder. 

I see nothing that suggests they'd overwhelm a healthy Byakugou Tsunade, they'd have to stab her a number of times, and the mutliple rods would have to remain in her body for several seconds for her to even begin to be effected by the chakra disturbance.

Even then, Byakugou Tsunade is a far different beast than Base Naruto, and she isn't going to be stabbed across her entire body as Naruto was pinned downed with rods in both his legs, both his hands, and across his back. One rod in her shoulder, and one in her knee probably isn't going to paralyze her. There's a reason why Deva stabbed him across his entire body. 

Even then, Deva was the only path out at the time. It's pretty clear the power of black receivers would increase when Nagato doesn't have to focus his chakra through 5 other Paths with Gedo. The more paths that are out, the weaker the rod's effect will be. 

So, to sum it up:
>Couldn't stab, or further wound in anyway, a one armed critically wounded Jiraiya who couldn't use his Senjutsu once while they weren't being restricted to taijutsu and he lacked knowledge on more than 1 path
>Nagato needed to stab Naruto across his body with multiple rods to paralyze him
>Deva was the only path out, power of black receivers as it pertains to paralyzing an opponent should have skyrocketed as apposed to when there are another 5 Paths out
>Rods take more than a few seconds to even begin to generate any disturbance, as shown with Jiraiya who continued his conversation and was later effected by the disturbance, and Kakashi who went at Deva and then the disturbance began seconds after being stabbed with it. Tsunade can rip them out or destroy them with a strike in a fraction of a second and she has knowledge that they generate/disturb chakra. 
>Tsunade avoided bisection/beheading from 5 V3 Legged EMS-Precog Madara Susano Clones for an extremely extended period, and blindsided one, striking it without warning.
>Tsunade poured the entirety of her Byakugou seal into thousands of mini splits of Katsuya throughout the village, while at the same time adding in Creation Rebirth to the chakra, instantaneously, granting her one of if not the greatest chakra control feature of the entire manga
>The rods paralyze as a result of chakra disturbance, it would probably be pretty difficult for someone to disturb the chakra of a shinobi that did the above 
>Tsunade defeats all of the paths


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> You have much and more to learn about the Battledome ​​


So it seems.
It can't be that different from OPBD though.


Ryuzaki said:


> Fresh Deva Path (taijutsu + chakra rods) > Tsunade, *it's actually a proven by the manga*


You sound so sure of yourself.
Perhaps we are reading different mangas then ? 
You sure, you are reading Naruto?
And tbh my previous post wasn't directed at you considering I didn't actually read your posts.
You just took it upon yourself.
But hey my point still stands.
Kishimoto was initially planning to make Tsunade take down a path or two before Naruto arrives(atleast I remember something like that).
You know unrestricted Paths those who use powers of Rinnegan which is what that actually makes Pain strong and all.
A fellow Sannin did take three unrestricted paths down while fighting all six on same time after all.
But Deva with just Taijutsu beats Tsunade. 
But hey I guess Tsunade is just a fodder.
He doesn't need Rinnegan for likes of her at all.
It obviously doesn't go against her portrayal in manga.
Peace.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 4, 2015)

Are people forgetting that if she's stabbed by enough chakra rods, Tsunade will lost the ability to move?

Kakashi was a bit thrown when he got stabbed by one. Jiraiya, when he was in a fatal condition couldn't do anything when he was stabbed by one. Naruto couldn't do much when he got stabbed about 5 times in particular spots the Rinnegan can see; same with Hashirama. Jiraiya barely could do much after he got stabbed by 5.

When Tsunade will be stabbed with the chakra rods, it will be with the intent to immobilise her. Remember they can be thrown too, they're not limited to sword like functions.

I don't see Tsunade getting past the shared vision and the combined strength along with the synergy by Pain Rikudou. Katsuyu could make a difference... but if Tsunade does that she could encourage Pain to keep their distance and just use the only option they have: throw the chakra rods.

Remember if Tsunade has her chakra messed up, her healing... which unsurprisingly uses chakra won't be effective.

Plus it seems a lot of NF has forgotten that Pain wasn't primarily a foe that seeks to overpower his opponents. Pain's main strategy involves keeping the bodies together, so they'll try what they can to prevent them from being split up.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Sakura got pierced by one of Madara's chakra rods - it didn't stop her from throwing a super punch at him and regenerating afterwards. And Tsunade is hella more damage resistant than Sakura is.



That chakra rod was different to what Pain would be using and what Madara used prior becoming a Jinchuriki. Madara used a Gedo Dama, not a chakra rod. The latter would have messed up Sakura's ability to use chakra if Madara willed it.

Tsunade and Sakura use the same jutsu to be damage resistant... how can one be more damage resistant than the other?



> The only paths that can likely stab Tsunade are Deva and Asura Path anyways, the others don't seem fast enough. Manga knowledge gives Tsunade the upper hand in that she knows of their shared vision - she uses Katsuyu to divide their attention, and then kicks their asses at CQC one by one.



That's the problem right there. She knows about shared vision, she knows that is is an effective counter to Taijutsu. She also knows Pain will do whatever it takes to keep the bodies together to preserve the shared vision. Pain is aware of this drawback and has strategies to prevent the unit from being separated so easily. That's why Fukasaku devised a plan which relied on Pain undermining Jiraiya.

The moment a number of Katsuyu copies come out, her intention will be obvious and Pain will react accordingly. They may even let Tsunade fight one body, and try to keep all the other eyes on Tsunade... like they did with Naruto. Sage Naruto had to resort to using an attack which couldn't be seen to get past shared vision, so Tsunade without Senjutsu enhancements would struggle to land a hit.

Katsuyu spitting acid and all that will only force the Pain unit to keep moving around as a unit till they get some advantage. They may even hide a few Paths as they're trying to escape in order to set up a sneak attack.


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> These are bodies that indavidually can keep up with high-tiers in Taijustu/CqC



I was reading your post, got to this, and had to hold back tears.

Let's go through the high tiers:

*Killer B*


*Minato*


*Obito*


*Itachi*


*Sages*



..do I _really_ need to keep going?


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## Joakim3 (Nov 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I was reading your post, got to this, and had to hold back tears.
> 
> Let's go through the high tiers:
> 
> ...


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> _Everyone_ you listed minus Killer B & SM Naruto would casually be neg-diffed by Shurado, _possibly_ soloed by Ningendo and damn sure fucked up by any 2 path combo in a _pure taijutsu/kenjutsu fist fight_



You probably should have made that last part more clear because "close quarters combat" & "taijutsu" mean different things.

Anyway...no.

Restricted to taijutsu, Minato, Obito, & Itachi would beat the shit out of Ningendō without difficulty. They'd need moderate difficulty for Shuradō because of his resilience.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 4, 2015)

We have no idea how Kakashi vs Deva in pure taijutsu/kenjutsu would go. Kakashi dodged Deva's kick and used Doton ninjutsu before Deva finished lowering his leg. And he was hit because said ninjutsu casting put him into an awkward position. It was a risky play that misfired. Ninjutsu-combo vs CQC+tricky rods. You can't get a taijutsu comparison out of that.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I was reading your post, got to this, and had to hold back tears.
> 
> Let's go through the high tiers:
> 
> ...



I'm loving this new Gif thing you're doing in your posts. 

#trendingonNFBD



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That chakra rod was different to what Pain would be using and what Madara used prior becoming a Jinchuriki. Madara used a Gedo Dama, not a chakra rod. The latter would have messed up Sakura's ability to use chakra if Madara willed it.



But the Gudou dama was transformed into a black reciever. Obito did the same thing to facilitate his Six Yang Formation Barrier, showing that Gudou dama rods still have the same properties as regular Rinnegan ones. It is possible that Sakura's chakra control is so high that she can use jutsu despite the chakra rod fucking up her body - she was able to heal herself and pull a sword out of her stomach simultaneously while poisoned, and that was a year prior to the war when her chakra control was lower. It might be different if she got pierced by a lot of them, but just one wasn't an issue.



> Tsunade and Sakura use the same jutsu to be damage resistant... how can one be more damage resistant than the other?



Because Tsunade is resistant to damage without the use of any jutsu. Obviously. Healing doesn't give you damage resistance anyway, just faster recovery.



> That's the problem right there. She knows about shared vision, she knows that is is an effective counter to Taijutsu. She also knows Pain will do whatever it takes to keep the bodies together to preserve the shared vision. Pain is aware of this drawback and has strategies to prevent the unit from being separated so easily. That's why Fukasaku devised a plan which relied on Pain undermining Jiraiya.
> 
> The moment a number of Katsuyu copies come out, her intention will be obvious and Pain will react accordingly. They may even let Tsunade fight one body, and try to keep all the other eyes on Tsunade... like they did with Naruto. Sage Naruto had to resort to using an attack which couldn't be seen to get past shared vision, so Tsunade without Senjutsu enhancements would struggle to land a hit.



I don't follow your argument. Tsunade's plan being obvious doesn't make it any easier to stop. What the hell can Pein do against hundreds of thousands of Katsuyu clones spitting acid at him in hundreds of thousands of different directions at the same time? If your answer is to effortlessly evade them all and then gang up on Tsunade, then you're very very horribly wrong.



> Katsuyu spitting acid and all that will only force the Pain unit to keep moving around as a unit till they get some advantage. They may even hide a few Paths as they're trying to escape in order to set up a sneak attack.



He couldn't even hide his own shit when he's this restricted. And Tsunade laughs at his attempts at a sneak attack when she has several hundred thousand scouts on the field. So Katsuyu gangs up on the paths, and they either run away or they die. La Fin.​​


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 4, 2015)

Amol said:


> You sound so sure of yourself.
> Perhaps we are reading different mangas then ?
> You sure, you are reading Naruto?
> And tbh my previous post wasn't directed at you considering I didn't actually read your posts.
> ...


I figured I was the only one to say something like that.



Amol said:


> When in fact,
> Kishimoto was initially planning to make Tsunade take down a path or two before Naruto arrives(atleast I remember something like that).


When did this happen?


Amol said:


> You know unrestricted Paths those who use powers of Rinnegan which is what that actually makes Pain strong and all.


This is absolutely false, their teamwork and chemistry is what makes them dangerous not what technique they use. Last I checked, he still can see chakra, has weapons to immobilize Tsunade and six different fields of vision, has her outnumbered 6 to 1.



Amol said:


> A fellow Sannin did take three unrestricted paths down while fighting all six on same time after all.


Again, he's more suited to fighting someone like Pain, he was using ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu. Tsunade has never shown any remotely amazing ninjutsu or genjutsu to begin with, outside of her healing I can't even recall a jutsu that could turn the tide here. So limiting Pain to Taijutsu 



Amol said:


> But Deva with just Taijutsu beats Tsunade.


Yeah, more or less, lets go through what we know:
Pain still has 6 bodies, at the very least, half of them have reaction feats that have blocked or dodged against faster characters. I don't see Tsunade finding a way to sneak an attack on Pain all together, the would literally have the battlefield covered, I mean faster characters than her tried and failed. I don't see someone as slow as her making that move. Then there's the whole chakra-rod scenario where she would be paralyzed all together. At the moment, Jinchuriki's were able to remain immune to these controlling mechanisms and last I checked she isn't one.


Amol said:


> But hey I guess Tsunade is just a fodder.


Tsunade literally has 0 tangible feats outside of taijutsu, she's brawler and that's all she's going to do. Each of her fights are predicated on letting her opponent cut through her and hit her, the moment that happens here she's basically cannon fodder.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I was reading your post, got to this, and had to hold back tears.
> 
> *Sages*



 And yet SM Naruto needed Frog Kata to deal a direct hit on Preta Path ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 4, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> But the Gudou dama was transformed into a black reciever. Obito did the same thing to facilitate his Six Yang Formation Barrier, showing that Gudou dama rods still have the same properties as regular Rinnegan ones. It is possible that Sakura's chakra control is so high that she can use jutsu despite the chakra rod fucking up her body - she was able to heal herself and pull a sword out of her stomach simultaneously while poisoned, and that was a year prior to the war when her chakra control was lower. It might be different if she got pierced by a lot of them, but just one wasn't an issue.



The Gedo Dama was just transformed into a chakra receiver that would form a barrier. 

The Gedo Dama isn't precisely the same as a chakra receiver. Otherwise a such a close distance, Sakura would have lost total control over her body like Hashirama did... since Madara would be so close.





> Because Tsunade is resistant to damage without the use of any jutsu. Obviously. Healing doesn't give you damage resistance anyway, just faster recovery.



Since when was she damage resistant... I'd see how healing helps her, but you're saying it is independent of healing. Explain.



> I don't follow your argument. Tsunade's plan being obvious doesn't make it any easier to stop. What the hell can Pein do against hundreds of thousands of Katsuyu clones spitting acid at him in hundreds of thousands of different directions at the same time? If your answer is to effortlessly evade them all and then gang up on Tsunade, then you're very very horribly wrong.



Tsunade's plan being obvious does make it easier to stop. It is more likely to succeed if Pain won't expect it -- recall Jiraiya's Genjutsu. Pain will just change his game plan to keep his bodies together.

This is Konoha, they can just get on the buildings and make their escape. Pain bodies were able to keep up with Senjutsu users, so they probably won't be slow.

Is Tsunade going to attempt to charge towards Pain while Katsuyu is firing acid, or will she wait? By your post you made it sound like she'd aim to charge while Pain deals with Katsuyu... which could easily be stay "alive" till the summoning time limit runs out. In a scenario where Pain has no choice but to flee (since all Pain's powers are restricted), if Tsunade does that she'll just have a lot of chakra receivers thrown at her.



> He couldn't even hide his own shit when he's this restricted. And Tsunade laughs at his attempts at a sneak attack when she has several hundred thousand scouts on the field. So Katsuyu gangs up on the paths, and they either run away or they die. La Fin.[/indent][/justify]



They're not fighting in an open plan area, are they? They're fighting in Konoha. There are tons of places to hide. What's Tsunade going to do when she can't find them, or most of them, and the summoning time limit runs out?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 4, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> We have no idea how Kakashi vs Deva in pure taijutsu/kenjutsu would go. Kakashi dodged Deva's kick and used Doton ninjutsu before Deva finished lowering his leg. And he was hit because said ninjutsu casting put him into an awkward position. It was a risky play that misfired. Ninjutsu-combo vs CQC+tricky rods. You can't get a taijutsu comparison out of that.



Should have used thousand bird years of pain.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You probably should have made that last part more clear because "close quarters combat" & "taijutsu" mean different things.
> 
> Anyway...no.
> 
> Restricted to taijutsu, Minato, Obito, & Itachi would beat the shit out of Ningendō without difficulty. They'd need moderate difficulty for Shuradō because of his resilience.



Ningendo survived having it's eyeballs pushed through its head from a direct SM kick to the face (something that had comparable force of Ei's V1 elbow hit on Jugo) ..... none of the people you listed come _anywhere within a football field_ of raw physical strength to due such damage

Ningendo casually tanks any of their hits, and then casually snaps their body in half when their chakra/stamina eventually gives way and Nagato's doesn't, considering it had the strength to no sell an SM enhanced punch 

Rocky do you _seriously_ think of the people you just listed are beating _Shurado_ in a raw taijutsu match? It has the physical strength on par with Killer B's Gyuki enhanced throwing feat, and even while damaged _Raikiri_ could not fully penetrate it. They die in truly barbaric fashion


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## Rocky (Nov 5, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> something that had comparable force of Ei's V1 elbow hit on Jugo



No.

Sage Jiraiya doesn't even come close to Raikage.



Joakim3 said:


> Ningendo casually tanks any of their hits, and then casually snaps their body in half when their chakra/stamina eventually gives way



Itachi launches dozens of shuriken at it at ridiculous speeds, Obito uses the Sharingan to read its movements and stabs in in the neck with a chakra rod, and Minato uses the body flicker to flank it and slit its throat. 



> Rocky do you _seriously_ think of the people you just listed are beating _Shurado_ in a raw taijutsu match?



It depends on what you do & do not consider taijutsu for Asura.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 5, 2015)

> It has the physical strength on par with Killer B's Gyuki enhanced throwing feat



You guys draw the weirdest parallels.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No.
> 
> Sage Jiraiya doesn't even come close to Raikage.



He punted Ningendo the same distance SM kicked Tendo into a rock.... and no one would argue SM isn't on the same strength tier as Raikages




Rocky said:


> Itachi launches dozens of shrunken at it at ridiculous speeds, Obito uses the Sharingan to read its movements and stabs in in the neck with a chakra rod, and Minato uses the body flicker to flank it and slit its throat.



I'm talking about a straight brawl fist fight.... Zero weapons 

The only reason they could beat that path is because they use more versatile weapons. (Something Tsuande doesn't use btw)



Rocky said:


> It depends on what you do & do not consider taijutsu for Asura.



Any strength or speed feat.

Nagato is the onle controlling the paths actions.... So long as the paths can physically replicate another paths feats..., any taijutsu skill one shows can be applied to all


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## Rocky (Nov 5, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> He punted Ningendo the same distance SM kicked Tendo into a rock.... and no one would argue SM isn't on the same strength tier as Raikages



No Sage outside of Godruto or the grandaddy of ninjutsu himself are manhandling guys like Curse Seal Jūgo or KCM Naruto.

In physical power, Raikage >>> Sages. 



Joakim3 said:


> I'm talking about a straight brawl fist fight.... Zero weapons



I'm still rolling with the Yellow Flash and the legendary Uchihas with matured Sharingans in a hand-to-hand match against Human Path without Soul Absorbtion. 

It's fucking Human Path.



Joakim3 said:


> Any strength or speed feat.



The Asura Path itself is like a robot though. I'm not sure where to draw the line with what the body's power is and what the Rinnegan's power is, you feel me?

I would lean towards Shuradō against those three guys above if the only things it can't use are its missiles & lasers.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Asura Path itself is like a robot though. I'm not sure where to draw the line with what the body's power is and what the Rinnegan's power is, you feel me?
> 
> I would lean towards Shuradō against those three guys above if the only things it can't use are its missiles & lasers.


Asura is a hard path to pin down, I take the whole thing as a taijutsu thing, anything those bodies can literally do physically I take into the umbrella of taijutsu. If they start using seals or techniques requiring chakra, then I'd say it's ninjutsu (e.g. like Deva Path using Water Element or Animal Path with it's summons).


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 5, 2015)

The overestimation of Pain here is odd. We've seen the most agile and skillful of Nagato's bodies engage in close quarters combat, and his showings were never particularly impressive. He was decisively out-maneuvered against Kakashi, and was unable to break through the defence of a weakened Naruto without his sennin mōdō enhancements. Both were formidable opponents, but neither were as lethal in taijutsu as Tsunade is.

It's important to remember that Pain's strength in close quarters combat comes from his shared vision and chakra disruption rods, not necessarily his speed or skill. All his skirmishes?at least, the ones I remember?were won through those. Shuradō is unique in that his bodily modifications offer him both high durability and an extra set of weapons, but both are meaningless against Tsunade, who can kill most characters with a single hit and who is essentially impervious against most conventional weaponry.

That said, if Pain fights intelligently, he can win. Tsunade is by no means slow, but the bodies are agile and more numerous; if she tries to fight one, another five can appear at her back or flank with disruption rods. Those are, in my opinion, one of the few things in the manga that can actually neutralise her regenerative abilities and if Pain can land a solid hit with them, the momentary paralysis she'll likely experience a few seconds after will give him enough momentum to finish it. He needs to be patient.

However, if he tries to gang up on her with all the bodies at once or overreaches in his aggression, this would be Tsunade's fight to win. She's skilled enough to react to taijutsu of Pain's level, we know for a fact that she's willing and able to use her fists to parry her attacks (and depending on how she does it, she might manage to snatch a free arm out of it), and can punch the ground to hit all of them at the same time. If they're all on her, some of the bodies won't be fast to get out of the epicenter of the resulting shockwave and die.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 5, 2015)

IIRC it will take a lot, a _lot_, to kill the Pain bodies. The the known things known to take out bodies were things like a pool of stomach acid, Raikiri ripping one apart, frog fu, Rasenshuriken, Senjutsu Rasenrengan, natural energy (turning one of their powers against them) and and a Rasengan which followed an intense hits like Bijuu shock waves and direct hits from a Sage. 

Granted one direct punch is probably capable of taking out a body, if Madara is something to go by, but I don't think simply punching the ground and its result shock waves count as "good enough" to take out a body. Even normal Rasengan, a smack from a giant hand and kicks from an imperfect Sage didn't take bodies down. 

Basically I can only see Tsunade take Pain out if she lands direct hits. However that also assumes Pain won't follow a set plan once he sees Tsuande's powers. Though as we know, his main plans revolve around strategies that keep the bodies together and strike at opportune times. Though, they're not past acting smart as far as using all the bodies; Demon Realm and other bodies didn't come out with an aggressive strategy; they waited for the right time to strike.

Going by A, Tsunade fights recklessly. One/two Pains could just lure Tsunade out, and give the others a chance to strike.


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## Rocky (Nov 5, 2015)

Naruto's base Rasengan killed the Deva Path. The only one with extraordinary resilience is Asura.


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 5, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Granted one direct punch is probably capable of taking out a body, if Madara is something to go by, but I don't think simply punching the ground and its result shock waves count as "good enough" to take out a body. Even normal Rasengan, a smack from a giant hand and kicks from an imperfect Sage didn't take bodies down.



I don't think the shock waves from one of Tsunade's punches to the ground can kill any of Pain's stronger bodies, either. What it can do, however, is rag-doll all of them and give Tsunade the opportunity to launch her own offensive on them.


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## Jad (Nov 6, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Replace rasenshuriken follow up with this:



Metal Lee was running through building walls casually and smacked a puppet through a building.  What this has to do with the thread, I'll let you guess


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 6, 2015)

Rock Lee found the green block in Hazy Maze Cave?


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## hbcaptain (Nov 6, 2015)

Since when Tsunade is as fast as Sage Naruto in CQC , she can't punch him apart if she is pierced many times by the black thing .


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 6, 2015)

Deidara doesn't need to be as fast as his opponent or to hit them directly for the blast zone to hurt them.

Just like Sakura didn't have to be faster than, or directly hit all the circled guys for them to go flying.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 6, 2015)

Why is this being debated. Pain at full power admitted a Sannin was legitimately stronger than he was. You are insulting Tsunade with this. Put Pain at full power VS Tsunade and then we have a real fight.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 6, 2015)

Lol , go reread the manga , Pain said that if Jiraya found his real corps , he would beat him , that's his secret . Because the 6 paths beat Jiraya without even using Tendo's gravity Jutsu and just losting one avatar .


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## LostSelf (Nov 6, 2015)

Pain defeated SM Naruto with just Deva Path and Preta Path.

SM Naruto who was said to be on a level on his own in Konoha. So, yeah... Tsunade's not portrayed to beat the 6 paths of Pain in a direct fight. Just taijutsu is different, though.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 6, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I don't think the shock waves from one of Tsunade's punches to the ground can kill any of Pain's stronger bodies, either. What it can do, however, is rag-doll all of them and give Tsunade the opportunity to launch her own offensive on them.



Like fling them in the air so she can try to attack? Hasn't Pain, one body, already shown it can react to under situations that could potentially finish a body off? Recall how Deva dodged FRS while taking out 2 Naruto bunshins under 5 seconds.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No Sage outside of Godruto or the grandaddy of ninjutsu himself are manhandling guys like Curse Seal Jūgo or KCM Naruto.
> 
> In physical power, Raikage >>> Sages.
> .



joakim's just talking V1 though, and on that I'd agree. sm jiraiya's _stationary_ kick on Ningendo was visually more impressive than raikage's *speed-enhanced* punch.

jugo flew and hit a wall, cracked it, big whoop

ningendo _skidded_ across the floor caving in multiple divots in concrete before blowing a deep ass crater in a giant boulder

then he got right back up from that and proceeded to block a blow of similar calibur not a minute later

ningendo is no slouch in terms of physical prowess


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

_“Raikage > Sage” _

By Rocky​
Tendō vs Sage:



*seconds later*



Tendō > Sage

Tendō vs Rasengan:





Rasengan > Tendō

Rasengan vs Chidori: 



Rasengan = Chidori

Chidori puts holes in you.

Result of hypothetical Jūgo vs Chidori:



…but Jūgo was okay:



Jūgo > Chidori

Raikage vs Jūgo:



Raikage > Jūgo:

Raikage  > Chidori 

Chidori = Rasengan

Raikage > Rasengan

Rasengan > Sage

Therefore,

Raikage > Sage


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 7, 2015)

l o l

deva didn't go down to *just* rasengan genius

he accumulated quite a bit of damage prior to that

you know, getting hit by sm naruto multiple times

getting launched several kilometers across the village by his own shinra tensei

into a mountain yielding an explosion dozens of meters high

good try though

that even applies to jugo, raikage's elbow could have been and was likely the finishing blow to a dude *with a hole in its chest*

not like the elbow did actual visible damage but that's the point. jugo only had enough left in his tank to keep standing until raikage finished the job


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 7, 2015)

rasengan didn't rip apart deva path's body

both of those attacks, Rasengan and sm naruto's kick didn't leave any visible marks, after deva path's incapacitated body was shown, it has but a few scuff marks on it

we've no way to determine which attack did more damage

doesn't matter tho

if raikage had taken out jugo in one fell swoop with the elbow where in a previous encounter he failed with a punch, sure i'd agree with you

but both those attacks happened in the same fight

so jugo went down to *both* those attacks, not just one


and the fact that the elbow didn't leave a mark, seemingly, whereas the punch punctured a hole in his chest, leads me to believe the elbow was the finishing move

so like with rasengan, you have no way of proving which did more damage

ergo

elbow being > punch is hilariously baseless


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> we've no way to determine which attack did more damage



How about this. 

One killed him and other didn't.

HMM



ATastyMuffin said:


> so jugo went down to *both* those attacks, not just one



Dog, Jūgo was on the verge of creaming his pants when he thought he had killed A. The hole wasn't bothering him, or at least it didn't look like it. Not even a bit.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 7, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The Gedo Dama was just transformed into a chakra receiver that would form a barrier.



No, the Gudou dama was transformed into a chakra reciever _so that it could_ form a barrier. The Gudou dama couldn't have done it without transforming. Therefore the Gudou dama's transformed state has the same properties of the regular chakra reciever. In which case, there's no reason why it wouldn't have had the same immobilising effects. 



> The Gedo Dama isn't precisely the same as a chakra receiver. Otherwise a such a close distance, Sakura would have lost total control over her body like Hashirama did... since Madara would be so close.



Hashirama got impaled by way more than one, and they went through his entire body, not just through his stomach. Sakura's chakra control is probably higher than Hashirama's too. So it makes sense that he was immobilised, while Sakura wasn't.



> Since when was she damage resistant... I'd see how healing helps her, but you're saying it is independent of healing. Explain.



Since she got hit by Madara's Magatama and sustained no damage. 

Since she got bisected by two giant swords and still managed to knock over one of Madara's Susano'o _before_ she started healing.

Since she got slashed repeatedly by Orochimaru's sword and still managed to stand up and blitz him.

Since she got chopped in half and managed to survive and heal her team-mates for several hours before being saved.

etc. etc.



> Tsunade's plan being obvious does make it easier to stop. It is more likely to succeed if Pain won't expect it -- recall Jiraiya's Genjutsu. Pain will just change his game plan to keep his bodies together.



This is an extremely vague point. With just taijutsu, there is no strategy Pain can employ to counter Tsunade. There just isn't.



> This is Konoha, they can just get on the buildings and make their escape. Pain bodies were able to keep up with Senjutsu users, so they probably won't be slow.



And this is Tsunade. The woman who can blow up entire buildings in her sleep, or have giant slugs body melt them into a bath of acid. Tsunade actually fights _better_ in enclosed spaces - if Pein leads her into or onto a building then she goes smashy smashy and collapses the entire thing on top of or below him. If he jumps in the air he can't dodge, so he's a goner. And she's a _ninja_, so it is extremely unlikely that he's going to just sneak up behind her and ambush without her noticing. That has literally never worked any time anyone has ever tried that against her.



> Is Tsunade going to attempt to charge towards Pain while Katsuyu is firing acid, or will she wait? By your post you made it sound like she'd aim to charge while Pain deals with Katsuyu... which could easily be stay "alive" till the summoning time limit runs out. In a scenario where Pain has no choice but to flee (since all Pain's powers are restricted), if Tsunade does that she'll just have a lot of chakra receivers thrown at her.



Having worked with Katsuyu for over 40 years, I'd imagine she could work in tandem with her slug fairly easily. Katsuyu fires, they try to dodge, Tsunade attacks with a wide AOE ground pound. Katsuyu attacks again, etc. Except there are several hundred thousand Katsuyu attacking, so it becomes easy for Tsunade to split the Pein bodies up and attack them individually. And Pein can't deal with Katsuyu, with just taijitsu the slug laughs at him, so unless he runs away and forfeits, he just dies.

As for the summoning time limit: Tsunade had Katsuyu on her shoulder throughout the first couple of days of the war, and she was on the battlefield for the vast majority of the Aliiance fight against Obito and Madara. So she won't be disappearing in a hurry.



> They're not fighting in an open plan area, are they? They're fighting in Konoha. There are tons of places to hide. What's Tsunade going to do when she can't find them, or most of them, and the summoning time limit runs out?



Much of Konoha is open plan, even where there are buildings, there are also wide streets and courtyards, and she is the leader of the village, and knows every nook and cranny of her village's geography anyway. If Pein tries to run away, it's not like he can lead her to some unknown area to her where she can easily fall into a trap. I don't see why he'd be able to run away from her though, she can obviously keep up with his running speed.​​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 7, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No, the Gudou dama was transformed into a chakra reciever _so that it could_ form a barrier. The Gudou dama couldn't have done it without transforming. Therefore the Gudou dama's transformed state has the same properties of the regular chakra reciever. In which case, there's no reason why it wouldn't have had the same immobilising effects.



The Gedo Dama's composition enables to get a variety of effects from Jinton like effects to being solid chakra transmitters. It is up to the user.
Madara did not use any of these features on Sakura, he just stabbed her and expected her to die. He didn't expect her to have Tsunade's jutsu; that's why he used Limbo.

If Madara used the Gedo Dama like a chakra stake or used a chakra stake itself, the outcome there would be different. Sakura would be unable to form chakra and would be open to other attacks. The same danger Tsunade faces if she's stabbed enough times.



> Hashirama got impaled by way more than one, and they went through his entire body, not just through his stomach. Sakura's chakra control is probably higher than Hashirama's too. So it makes sense that he was immobilised, while Sakura wasn't.



Hashirama got impaled by more than one, true. That was Madara trying to achieve an Obito like effect, which it appears he couldn't do with a fake body. He did it shortly with his real body. 
It is the same reason why if SM Naruto (no Kurama) got stabbed by Nagato at a close range he would lose control. Sakura, nor Tsunade, have special chakra like a fusion of Kurama and SM chakra. So nothing stops them immobilising Tsunade. Tsunade won't be facing the risk of being stabbed only once.

Or we use the actual explanation: Madara intended to paralyse Hashirama while he expected one stab would _kill_ Sakura. I.E. Madara had no intention of immobilising her.



> Since she got hit by Madara's Magatama and sustained no damage.
> 
> Since she got bisected by two giant swords and still managed to knock over one of Madara's Susano'o _before_ she started healing.
> 
> ...



Magatama: her healing is what helped. Madara said it.

She got bisected by swords... hits she could only take due to healing.

She only could battle after she healed herself.

She summoned Katsuyu to that.

The vast majority of those feats were made possible due to her healing. Healing which relies on chakra.

She can move after taking a bit of damage going by the Orochimaru thing, but do take significant damage and carry on: she requires healing.



> This is an extremely vague point. With just taijutsu, there is no strategy Pain can employ to counter Tsunade. There just isn't.



Except take a formation which allows Pain to make the best use of what he's allowed. Sage Naruto probably is more capable than Tsunade in Taijutsu, and Pain was willing to send a body to battle him one on one, with the others providing extra vision waiting for a chance to strike. Without anything Tsunade can surprise Pain with (attacks that can't be seen), I doubt she'll sweep the match.



> And this is Tsunade. The woman who can blow up entire buildings in her sleep, or have giant slugs body melt them into a bath of acid. Tsunade actually fights _better_ in enclosed spaces - if Pein leads her into or onto a building then she goes smashy smashy and collapses the entire thing on top of or below him. If he jumps in the air he can't dodge, so he's a goner. And she's a _ninja_, so it is extremely unlikely that he's going to just sneak up behind her and ambush without her noticing. That has literally never worked any time anyone has ever tried that against her.



She's going to have Katsuyu melt a lot of buildings and she's going to smash a lot of buildings just to check where Pain, 6 foes, _might_ be hiding?
That's bound to just get her stabbed as a few Pain bodies will be able to find openings to strike.

Worst comes to worst, Pain just has to throw chakra receivers if CQC becomes impossible to work.



> Having worked with Katsuyu for over 40 years, I'd imagine she could work in tandem with her slug fairly easily. Katsuyu fires, they try to dodge, Tsunade attacks with a wide AOE ground pound. Katsuyu attacks again, etc. Except there are several hundred thousand Katsuyu attacking, so it becomes easy for Tsunade to split the Pein bodies up and attack them individually. And Pein can't deal with Katsuyu, with just taijitsu the slug laughs at him, so unless he runs away and forfeits, he just dies.
> 
> As for the summoning time limit: Tsunade had Katsuyu on her shoulder throughout the first couple of days of the war, and she was on the battlefield for the vast majority of the Aliiance fight against Obito and Madara. So she won't be disappearing in a hurry.



This can work if with someone with one field of vision: Pain has six. That's why Pain can time their counter attacks perfectly. Once that plan gets exposed they'll just keep their distance while staying together.

She had a small piece of Katsuyu on her. Also can we say the time she had Katsuyu out against the two Uchiha is more than the time Naruto had Gamakichi out fighting the Juubi and Juubito?



> Much of Konoha is open plan, even where there are buildings, there are also wide streets and courtyards, and she is the leader of the village, and knows every nook and cranny of her village's geography anyway. If Pein tries to run away, it's not like he can lead her to some unknown area to her where she can easily fall into a trap. I don't see why he'd be able to run away from her though, she can obviously keep up with his running speed.[/indent][/justify]



If that was the case, Pain wouldn't have had trouble hiding when he actually did attack Konoha. Pain knowing he'll fight her on her turf won't think of luring her to some unknown part. He'll just be looking for chances to attack.
She can keep up with the same guy who kept up with Kakashi and two Sages?


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