# [Round 2] Darth Vader vs John Doe



## masamune1 (Jan 6, 2009)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKtFrfS761Y[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xG5hSOMGn0&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Sooooooooo..........

Who takes it?


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## Federer (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm not a fan of Sci-fi, so for me it's easily John doe and the actor Kevin Spacey and his wicked performance. :ho


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## martryn (Jan 6, 2009)

Darth Vader is the iconic villain.  I didn't even know who John Doe was until I looked into the thread earlier.  Seems an easy choice.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 6, 2009)

Darth Vader is an iconic character, but he was able to build it in 3 movies. John Doe left his impression in about 15 minutes.

Its a difficult choice, but I don't know if Vader qualifies as a villain enough. The main villain in the first movie(imo), is Peter Cushings character(long live the Cushing!). The 2nd movie focused more on Vader, but he never did anything evil enough(once again, imo). The third movie focused on the emperor.

So Ill barely say John Doe.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jan 6, 2009)

John Doe. Vader was emo...


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## masamune1 (Jan 6, 2009)

MartialHorror said:


> Darth Vader is an iconic character, but he was able to build it in 3 movies. John Doe left his impression in about 15 minutes.
> 
> Its a difficult choice, but I don't know if Vader qualifies as a villain enough. The main villain in the first movie(imo), is Peter Cushings character(long live the Cushing!). The 2nd movie focused more on Vader, but he never did anything evil enough(once again, imo). The third movie focused on the emperor.
> 
> So Ill barely say John Doe.



Vader became iconic from his first appearance. He may have built upon it across the sequels, but he had left the impression from the get-go.

Vader is party to the annihilation of an entire _planet_ (he might not have ordered it, but he could certainly have stopped it easily- who the hell would disobey him?); he regularly executes ("murders" might be more accurate) his own men for not meeting his standards; he freezes Han Solo in carbonite just to see if that process will kill a human or not; he kills his own mentor, and is indirectly resposble for the death of his wife and the foster-parents of his own children. In the third prequel he slaughters a group of _children._

Let's face it, the only thing that makes John Doe seem more evil is that we are told the gruesome details of his crimes, and that only because the movie is for a more adult audience. Doe's mystique stems mostly from the fact that we don't know anything about him, plus the fact that we are told the city is every bit as corrupt as he says it is. He himself, though, is a pretty pathetic nonentity, a guy who kills because his victims disgust him and to get himself in the history books.

Vader is a ruthless mass murderer on a galaxy-wide scale. The combined death tolls of everyone else on this list multipled a hundred times over does'nt even begin to come close to the scale of his butchering. He does'nt care in the least for the vast majority of his victims, and will commit atrocities at command with ruthless efficiency. The second film _does_ show him as very evil, because he is now almost totally in charge and does'nt have Peter Cushing (barely) holding him back. He harbours ambitions of intergalactic domination, and in all the galaxy there are maybe three people who can touch him emotionally: his children, and the evil galactic dictator who made him.

How the hell does Vader not qualify as a villain?


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## Chee (Jan 6, 2009)

Love them both. But I'll go with John Doe.

AND WTF!? ANTON DIDN'T WIN!?


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## masamune1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Chee said:


> Love them both. But I'll go with John Doe.
> 
> AND WTF!? ANTON DIDN'T WIN!?



When I went to their match, Anton was behind by one point.

Someone else came along and made it even, but by then it did'nt matter since I decided to start this stage.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 6, 2009)

masamune1 said:


> Vader became iconic from his first appearance. He may have built upon it across the sequels, but he had left the impression from the get-go.
> 
> Vader is party to the annihilation of an entire _planet_ (he might not have ordered it, but he could certainly have stopped it easily- who the hell would disobey him?); he regularly executes ("murders" might be more accurate) his own men for not meeting his standards; he freezes Han Solo in carbonite just to see if that process will kill a human or not; he kills his own mentor, and is indirectly resposble for the death of his wife and the foster-parents of his own children. In the third prequel he slaughters a group of _children._
> 
> ...



I said villain "enough". He does qualify as a villain. 

You once used as part of your argument that Jason was tragic, in contrast to the Joker. Well, the same can be said about Vader. 

Yes, he did all those terrible things, but he was a "follower". Furthermore, he redeems himself in the end. 

As for whether he became an icon in the first movie, do you really know this? Were you around back when the original film was released or do you have any proof of it besides speculation? 

Either way, most of my arguments in this thread only was to compare him to John Doe.


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## SP (Jan 6, 2009)

You mean John Doe from Seven? If so, him.


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## Deaf Ninja Reaper (Jan 6, 2009)

Darth Vader failed with his goal in 5 or more movies

John Doe successfully achieved his goal in just 20 mins in the Se7en film's final part.

So I would pick John Doe but I can totally understand that Darth Vader should be through to round 3 just because he is such a ironic villain.


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## masamune1 (Jan 6, 2009)

MartialHorror said:


> I said villain "enough". He does qualify as a villain.



You said you "don't know if he qualifies as a villain enough"- your implying that he only barely qualifies, if that. 



> You once used as part of your argument that Jason was tragic, in contrast to the Joker. Well, the same can be said about Vader.



I said that beause you said Ledge's Joker was less villainous than Nicholson's Joker, because Ledger's seemed more tagic. I brought up Jason because you nominated him despite that argument.

I was not contrasting Jason and the Joker- I was addressing your apparnt inconsistancy.  



> Yes, he did all those terrible things, but he was a "follower". Furthermore, he redeems himself in the end.



Being a "follower" hardly disqualifies him, particularly since he did plenty of ruthess and evil thngs on his own. He had no problem following his orders and, further, believed in the idea that the masses should be ruled by a terror-based dictatorship. Most of all, he had aspirations to take that dictatorship for himself, even though he felt he needed his son's help to do it. That fact alone, however, shows that he plots behind his master's back.

And yes, he did redeem himself- _after_ being responsible for the deaths of untold billions. And his redemption came in the form of throwing a 100 year old down a shaft to his death.  



> As for whether he became an icon in the first movie, do you really know this? Were you around back when the original film was released or do you have any proof of it besides speculation?



Neither. I know because every single show that features Darth Vader has people attesting to the fact that he became iconic. I know because I've read movie reviews from the time. I know because Lucas (and Guiness) made a killin in the merchandising of the character.  

As it happens, while I'm old enough to have been around when Se7en came out, I was still too young to see it until years afterwards, and in all the details up to that point I heard very little of the killer. The mere fact that he is the bad guy in a mature film works against his iconic status vs the star of one of the mos popular fantasy sci-fi series of all time. With that I should add that the same applies to Hannibal Lecter and to a lesser extent the Terminator, but I knew who they were or at least had an idea. So too with Jason, Freddy, the Joker in various forms, and many others who I wouldrank lesser than him. That he comes only at the end works against him too.

And Vader and those other two have made cameo appearances or been spoofed in God-knows how many films, shows and TV series'. Unlike them, he has few really iconic movie scenes, no famous lines apart from a long speech or two (which are, by their nature less memorable than snappy dialogue), and no interesting personality traits beyond being a mission-based serial torture-killer. While both Vader and the Terminator represent higher powers in the form of vast, apocalyptic evil empires that heighten their mystique, Doe just has the narcissistic delusion that he does.

John Doe is a crepy, scary villain, andhe deserves to be on this list. But he is not an icon, or at least not on or approaching the level that Vader is. I'd like to add that I've seen a few major or wide reaching character and villain polls in my time, and Vader almost always ends up vying for the top-spot, usually with Hannibal Lecter. Lecter is the character most like him in terms of being a villain with limited screen time and beingin a mature crime thriller- he is 10 times more iconic than Doe is.

Boy I do go on a bit, don't I?     



> Either way, most of my arguments in this thread only was to compare him to John Doe.



So were mine.

Well, 'till now.


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## masamune1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Deaf Ninja Reaper said:


> Darth Vader failed with his goal in 5 or more movies
> 
> John Doe successfully achieved his goal in just 20 mins in the Se7en film's final part.



You mean the conquest and subjugation of an entire galaxy versus the killing of six people (inc. yourself) and convincing the cop who thinks your a lunatic to finish you off?


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## Para (Jan 6, 2009)

If we're talking about best villain of all time, who instantly comes to mind?

Darth Vader all the way. Iconic, evil, awesome.


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## Al-Yasa (Jan 6, 2009)

Darth Vader


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## Chee (Jan 6, 2009)

Iconic doesn't mean good. 

(Vader is awesome though)


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## Para (Jan 6, 2009)

Chee said:


> Iconic doesn't mean good.
> 
> (Vader is awesome though)



and psychotic doesn't mean good villain either

(John Doe is awesome though)

but seriously, I can't bring myself to vote against Vader in a best villains ever poll.


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## Chee (Jan 6, 2009)

Copying doesn't mean witty.

(Para is awesome though)


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## masamune1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Chee said:


> Iconic doesn't mean good.
> 
> (Vader is awesome though)



Well, I did say/ imply that. It's in there somewhere.


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## Para (Jan 6, 2009)

Chee said:


> Copying doesn't mean witty.
> 
> (Para is awesome though)



I used parody to reflect that I feel the same way about John Doe as you do about Darth Vader; it was meant to show empathy, not mock. Why so serious?


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## MartialHorror (Jan 6, 2009)

masamune1 said:


> You said you "don't know if he qualifies as a villain enough"- your implying that he only barely qualifies, if that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know Star Wars was a huge hit but does that mean Vader became iconic then? I mean, I saw Jar Jar Binks merchandise(before and after episode 1) and I don't know if I'd call him iconic........

I also didn't say that John Doe was an iconic villain(or did I, my memory is bad these days). I never heard of him until I saw the movie. But seriously, look at all these threads.

I wouldn't know who Tyler Durden was unless someone directly told me he was the guy from fight club. yet he beat Jason, who is the posterchild for slasher films in general.

Most of the villains nominated here aren't "icons" in any genre. In terms of that, yes, Vader should win. Otherwise the nominees would be Dracula, Pinhead, Frankenstein, etc.......Not alonzo harris, Durden or even Patrick Bateman.


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## masamune1 (Jan 6, 2009)

MartialHorror said:


> I know Star Wars was a huge hit but does that mean Vader became iconic then? I mean, I saw Jar Jar Binks merchandise(before and after episode 1) and I don't know if I'd call him iconic........



Once again, Vader has been referenced, spoofed and plastered all over the place since _Star Wars_ came out. Again, he regularly vies for or tops character polls the word over. And his merchandise is more popular than Jar-Jars.

Virtually all the reviews of the film both then and now praise Darth Vader, and interviews with Lucas and the others frequently turn to him and how they created him. He was the Dark Knight Joker of the 70's, who probably won't be as nfamous.   



> *I also didn't say that John Doe was an iconic villain(or did I, my memory is bad these days). *I never heard of him until I saw the movie. But seriously, look at all these threads.



You did. 



> I wouldn't know who Tyler Durden was unless someone directly told me he was the guy from fight club. yet he beat Jason, who is the posterchild for slasher films in general.
> 
> Most of the villains nominated here aren't "icons" in any genre. In terms of that, yes, Vader should win. Otherwise the nominees would be Dracula, Pinhead, Frankenstein, etc.......Not alonzo harris, Durden or even Patrick Bateman.



I agree and said as much. Iconic status does'nt guarantee high quality. But it is a start, a sign of their formidable status and imagery. It counts when it rests as much on scenes as on apperances.

Vader striking down Obi-Wan, Vader revealing he is the hero's father, Vader  freezing the _other_ hero to see if he will die; hell, even Vader just walking on screen and strangling someone, either with one hand or with one gesture- compare with Freddy or Jason whom most people recognise, but who do not really have any iconic scenes most people can think of- same with Frnkenstein and Dracula, to a lesser extent. 

Vader is more dangerous, more talented, and more three-dimensional than Doe, even if the latter is partly due to Vader's conflicted "good" side.
This all contributes to his status and his fame.

But I guess, as usual, we will have to agree to disagree. At least this time we did it without 1,000 word responses.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 6, 2009)

Yes, but Im asking if he became an icon after the FIRST Star Wars(as in episode 4), or if he became an icon from the original trilogy in general.

lol, I'm not saying you're wrong. I just usually don't count redeemed characters as "best villain". But yeah, its agreeing to disagree again(and in few words possible, yay!).


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## Para (Jan 6, 2009)

MartialHorror said:


> Yes, but Im asking if he became an icon after the FIRST Star Wars(as in episode 4), or if he became an icon from the original trilogy in general.


Well I think Vader hit unforgettable/iconic from his very first scene. Black-clad space samurai with a cape? I think everyone recognises Darth Vader. While he may lack in evil due to his redemption and while his image may have been sullied slightly by the prequels making him out to be some emo teenager, it cannot be said his image and scenes aren't iconic. He became an icon the minute most of us saw him. I mean, you wouldn't confuse Darth Vader with anything or anyone else.

Not to say he's one of the most evil, most accomplished or all-around best villains of all time, but he's certainly one of the most iconic simply from the fact that he's Darth Vader, and everyone knows what you're talking about when you say Darth Vader even if you don't watch many movies, or haven't even seen Star Wars. You know?


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## excellence153 (Jan 7, 2009)

Vader must win this!


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## masamune1 (Jan 7, 2009)

And he has.

But _damn_, that was close.


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