# Tsunade Vs. Deidara



## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Apr 15, 2014)

*Location:* Open grassy field
*knowledge:* full for tsunade, none for deidara
*Mindset:* both are in character
*Distance:* 30 meters
*Restrictions:* None

*Conditions: *
Both begin on foot
Deidara can only stay airborne at 100ft. he can't go no higher than that. 
Tsunade begins with byakuyo.


----------



## Bonly (Apr 15, 2014)

Deidara in his epic stupidity runs into CQC and gets destroyed by Tsunade. Deidara portrayal is just horrible, I mean do you think Tsunade who fought against 5 Susanoo using wood clones would get stomped by the ambush squad like Deidara did? We think that Kishi would not think that.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 15, 2014)

C3 for Katsuyu, C4 for Tsunade. They are hardly touching an aerial and reflexive Shinobi like Deidara.


----------



## Bringer (Apr 15, 2014)

Wait...

If he can only fly 100 feet(which is 30.48 meters.)

Gamabunta is100 meters talls(databook). So we can scale Katsuyu off of that. 

In an ironic turn of events Tsunade may have the height advantage on this one if she stands on top of Katsuyu.


----------



## ARGUS (Apr 15, 2014)

Deidara wins this comfortably if we go by feats 

He simply flies up and yes that's IC for him... And then he continuously attacks tsunade who has no way of getting to him... C3 and C4 would end tsunade


----------



## Cognitios (Apr 15, 2014)

Lol, Tsunade Summon makes this a stomp. 
Summon higher than Deidara. Lulz
Deidara's height advantage is gone and Tsunade stomps with one hit. Hell Acid might do the trick.
Tsunade low difficulty.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 15, 2014)

Ur just on a role with these bad Tsunade matchups lol. 

Anyway Tsuande can very well win this due to the 100 foot flying cap, and the fact that I don't see anything except C3 or C4 which are the only things in Deidara arsenal that would kill Tsunade. C3 in itself would kill Deidara with this flying gap unless he can outfly the explosion which is fucking not happening. Not to mention Tsunade can tank C3 via Katsuyu as canon.  He will also be killed by Tsunade before he thinks to use C4 considering the no knowledge situation. 

Actually yeah no, Tsunade comfortably wins this.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 15, 2014)

Wait, 100 feets? I didn't see that. Then this would be a hard battle because he will have to be actively dodging, something i see Deidara doing without difficulty since Deidara was dodging the faster, guided and bigger of Gaara's sand without much troubles for quite a while. So i don't see Katsuyu's acid being problematic to him.

100 meters only affects how high he can fly, but doesn't affect how far from them he can be. Katsuyu cannot pursue Deidara fast enough to pressure him, Tsunade either, as she cannot move in the air like Gai, Deidara would just need to move barely to the right/left and the Hokage will be victim of her own momentum.

He doesn't need to kill Katsuyu to win, as she is a summon. C4 will overpower and outspeed her regeneration, and after hitting so many clones placed for her to touch, she is likely eating one, or two if we grant her chakra quantity the benefit of the doubt. Deidara has too many means to trick her and finish her up in the end.

Therefore, the restriction is bad for him, but he is such a bad matchup for her because of his flight and C4, that she will need something more than a height restriction to beat him.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 15, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Deidara in his epic stupidity runs into CQC and gets destroyed by Tsunade. Deidara portrayal is just horrible, I mean do you think Tsunade who fought against 5 Susanoo using wood clones would get stomped by the ambush squad like Deidara did?


Thanks for saving me some time. It's true that relative to Tsunade's portrayal Deidara's has been quite poor. It's true that Deidara got stomped by the ambush-Squad with help, while Tsunade performed much more amicably against the Madara clones. There is really not much more to say than that.


----------



## Nikushimi (Apr 15, 2014)

Deidara toys with Tsunade using C1 until Byakugou kills her. Even with his altitude capped at 100ft, she isn't coming anywhere near him. He's much faster than she is, and well...he can fly.

Deidara wins easily. People relying on portrayal alone and going solely by Edo Deidara's defeat at the hands of the ambush squad are being hilariously hypocritical; what about going down to Jinton vs. C4 with Oonoki before their fight got interrupted? What about pushing Hebi Sasuke to the limit? What about capturing Gaara? Please; Deidara has one shitty performance due to bad writing and you people are ready to crucify him for it. Meanwhile, Tsunade got her ass whooped by part 1 Kabuto and you don't say anything about it.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 15, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Wait, 100 feets? I didn't see that. Then this would be a hard battle because he will have to be actively dodging, something i see Deidara doing without difficulty since Deidara was dodging the faster, guided and bigger of Gaara's sand without much troubles for quite a while. So i don't see Katsuyu's acid being problematic to him.
> 
> 100 meters only affects how high he can fly, but doesn't affect how far from them he can be. Katsuyu cannot pursue Deidara fast enough to pressure him, Tsunade either, as she cannot move in the air like Gai, Deidara would just need to move barely to the right/left and the Hokage will be victim of her own momentum.
> 
> ...



Keep on mind he has 0 knowledge compared to Tsunades full.

And 100 feet of sky height is something ninja can jump to causally. All Tsunade needs is one distraction from Katusyu then Deidara is done.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 15, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Keep on mind he has 0 knowledge compared to Tsunades full.
> 
> And 100 feet of sky height is something ninja can jump to causally. All Tsunade needs is one distraction from Katusyu then Deidara is done.



Deidara always goes to the skies, but it's true that Tsunade can try to trick him with her strenght. However, her IC behavior is too lineal, and since Deidara is not a CqC fighter, he might find out about her strenght using C1, just like he did with Sasuke.

Deidara can get away from the slug and avoid this kind of things, but now that you mention it, i see it as one of the possibilities for Tsunade to win, even though i still favor Deidara more times than not, because he is the type of fighter that pressures his opponents, while Katsuyu will need to be helping Tsunade for enough time for Deidara to capitalize on how dangerous the slug can be.

Keeping up with two enemies might not be too hard for him as he kept an eye on Gaara and the sand that was coming from different angles, even from behind.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 15, 2014)

100 foot flight cap....normally bare minimum 330 foot slug.....Tsunade of all people.....

Tsunade uses Katsuyu as a bat and smacks Deidara to the moon.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 15, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> 100 foot flight cap....normally bare minimum 330 foot slug.....Tsunade of all people.....
> 
> Tsunade uses Katsuyu as a bat and smacks Deidara to the moon.



Flawless logic.

/thread.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 15, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Deidara always goes to the skies, but it's true that Tsunade can try to trick him with her strenght. However, her IC behavior is too lineal, and since Deidara is not a CqC fighter, he might find out about her strenght using C1, just like he did with Sasuke.
> 
> Deidara can get away from the slug and avoid this kind of things, but now that you mention it, i see it as one of the possibilities for Tsunade to win, even though i still favor Deidara more times than not, because he is the type of fighter that pressures his opponents, while Katsuyu will need to be helping Tsunade for enough time for Deidara to capitalize on how dangerous the slug can be.
> 
> Keeping up with two enemies might not be too hard for him as he kept an eye on Gaara and the sand that was coming from different angles, even from behind.



Tsunades IC behavior will surely be different with FULL knowledge.

Id also like to ask for some beginning KazeKage Gaara sand speed feats , because it's speed is kind of overrated. 

I think 2 150 feet Katsuyu's( Deidara has a sky gap of 100 feet) both spitting acid blasts the size of large boulders, should casually cause Deidara to swerve his bird and face into a fist. Tsunade could heavily outpace Manda( pretty fast actually) while carrying a sword thousands of times her body weight( how much would that slow her down ) and leap over Gambunta(300 feet) to slam the tanto in his mouth. All that while rusty actually. She also( while rusty) was able to start from a floored position and blitz Oro with her severed mid section( floored position + Rusty + destroyed core... I wonder how much that slower her down ?). I have no doubt that healthy Tsunade , with the aid of a distraction could one shot a heavily restricted Deidara. You truly are giving Tsunade 0 credit here. She has a damn good chance against regular Deidara( still in his favor) and actually has the hype advantage over him. Do you honestly think that a Deidara this restricted could win?


----------



## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Apr 16, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Deidara in his epic stupidity runs into CQC and gets destroyed by Tsunade. Deidara portrayal is just horrible, I mean do you think Tsunade who fought against 5 Susanoo using wood clones would get stomped by the ambush squad like Deidara did? We think that Kishi would not think that.



wtf? this isn't about portrayal, this is the battledome, where a character(s) victory is justified by their feats and level of intellect, not portrayal. portrayal is strictly for the story.

and deidara is far from stupid. deidara is a tactician and i would say his analytical skills are on par with kakashi's. gaara had the environmental advantage on deidara and deidara won that battle with intelligence. 

against tsunade, deidara wouldn't just jump straight into CQC. first of all taijutsu is not his strong point, and being the tactician that he is, he would obviously get his distance first by going airborne first.

deidara is a far greater tactician than tsunade is


----------



## Bonly (Apr 16, 2014)

Rick Muthafkn Martin said:


> shit nobody cares about.



Yea no. Lurk a bit more since what I posted obviously went over your head.


----------



## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Apr 16, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> 100 foot flight cap....normally bare minimum 330 foot slug.....Tsunade of all people.....
> 
> Tsunade uses Katsuyu as a bat and smacks Deidara to the moon.



 i just imagined this omfg



Bonly said:


> Yea no. Lurk a bit more since what I posted obviously went over your head.



I dont even remember me typing that but w.e


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 16, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tsunades IC behavior will surely be different with FULL knowledge.



What tactic would she use against an enemy that fights at long range?



> Id also like to ask for some beginning KazeKage Gaara sand speed feats , because it's speed is kind of overrated.



Gaara brought a gigantic sand Tsunami almost bigger than the sand village in one panel, surprising Deidara.



> I think 2 150 feet Katsuyu's( Deidara has a sky gap of 100 feet) both spitting acid blasts the size of large boulders, should casually cause Deidara to swerve his bird and face into a fist. Tsunade could heavily outpace Manda( pretty fast actually) while carrying a sword thousands of times her body weight( how much would that slow her down ) and leap over Gambunta(300 feet) to slam the tanto in his mouth. All that while rusty actually. She also( while rusty) was able to start from a floored position and blitz Oro with her severed mid section( floored position + Rusty + destroyed core... I wonder how much that slower her down ?). I have no doubt that healthy Tsunade , with the aid of a distraction could one shot a heavily restricted Deidara. You truly are giving Tsunade 0 credit here. She has a damn good chance against regular Deidara( still in his favor) and actually has the hype advantage over him. Do you honestly think that a Deidara this restricted could win?



Interceptions are not usually counted as speed feats. Like i said, Deidara doesn't need to fly high, he just need to keep away from the summons, since it's not a closed  battlefield, Deidara can fly away from the acid's reach, and only Tsunade.

I said that surprising Deidara gives her an opening, but for this, he doesn't need to be attacking most of the time, and he is somebody that is always bombarding (unless pressured).

We are ignoring Deidara's clone feints to get distance, he has highly and deadly explosive clones that can heavily harm Tsunade in touch, he has a dragon that can cause explosions as high as Katsuyu, and has C4 that he can pull out before dying.

Saying Deidara has the advantages because he has a lot of means Tsunade has no way of countering (I've never seen Tsunade throwing boulders at an enemy) is not taking away all of Tsunade's credit, because i don't think she will jump and hit Deidara with two katsuyus out there throwing acid (An OOC maneuver) before he feels he needs his big guns. Tsunade is not killing a Kage level shinobi that fast _more times than not_.

To put it simply, Deidara can create distances between him and the slug, and fight Tsunade away from it, but he doesn't need to create distances only flying higher. He can move backwards, he can circle the slug, he has a the flexibility he needs to avoid being in the middle of the slug and Tsunade if he desires while Tsunade can likely hit a C4 clone.

I am also not saying Deidara wins more times than not with this restrictions. I would be saying that if he were unrestricted and the match were equal to both sides, because Tsunade has shown nothing to pressure him in the air, though and jumping is more dangerous for her than it would be for him, even in this scenario. She is not a speedester, and a fast shinobi like Sasuke failed to touch him effectively.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 16, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> What tactic would she use against an enemy that fights at long range?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The same tactic I already stated; using Katsuyu as a distraction and planting an attack on his forehead.

Scan ? That also doesn't mean much as Deidara was casually dodging his sand attacks from all directions. So "surprising" him was probably centered more towards the amount of sand rather the speed. It's also to note that panel time various a lot.

True they "usually aren't " especially if they are inconsistent. But this one is about as consistent as it gets, considering Tsunade blitzed Oro right before It's also to note that Tsunade accomplished said feat with a ridiculous amount of restrictions; Rusty, size of sword, not knowing where Manda was going to appear , having to jump over a boss summon , etc.... This is also doesn't discount her Oro blitzing feat, or the difference between Rusty Tsunade and Current Tsunade . 

Deidara doesn't have the knowledge to perfectly assume he should keep a ridiculous amount of range away from a 5'3 old women and a slug. He barely stayed away from Hebi Sasuke. Even if he does "run away," what is he going to do ? Would he prepare to fight a no knowledge opponent better then Tsunade( higher intelligence btw) prepares to fight an opponent she has 100% knowledge on?

I don't remember Deidara doing anything special with clone feints or explosive clones ? Nothing that Byakugo Tsunade with superior durabilty can't just run through.

His C1 clay isn't doing shit to Tsunade . Tanking Yasaka(an explosive type of Justu) known as sussanos most powerful projectile with 0 injuries leads me to believe Deidara has nothing bar C4 in his arsenal to damage Tsunade + Katsuyu. It's also to note that because Tsunade has 100% knowledge on an explosive user that she will cover herself in Katsuyu to cushion the explosive effect .

Not to mention that Deidara will never resort to any thing you mentioned in a no knowledge situation where his flying height is capped off below Tsunades  casual jumping height.

I don't understand why you assume Tsunade is going to fight in the least logical way in this battle despite her having full knowledge . If she knows Deidara is a long ranged fighter then she's going to kill him before he gets comfortable mid flight. Tsuande doesn't resort to "throwing boulders " because she usually doesn't have full knowledge , and I doubt throwing rocks at Madara, Pain , and Oro would amount to anything. Throwing boulders at Deidara , however, would kill the bitch.

You seem to forget how restricted Deidara is. Being able to fly perfectly in the range of a "hop " to Tsuande and having 0 knowledge leads me to believe Tsunade 2 panels Deidara. If you give Hiruzen no knowledge , and no elemental Justu, then I'm inclined to say Tsunade or [ insert any Mid Tier Kage] one shots the old fucker also.

You also seem to forget that Tsunade is on the level of Deidara flying speed via feats. He is not going to be outpacing anything and just blocking her LoS will be nigh impossible even when knowledge.

I agree however, that if this is an equal match, that Deidara wins, as he's just a very bad match up for Tsunade. BUT under these stipulations, Tsunade wins handily.


----------



## ARGUS (Apr 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Deidara wins easily. People relying on portrayal alone and going solely by Edo Deidara's defeat at the hands of the ambush squad are being hilariously hypocritical; what about going down to Jinton vs. C4 with Oonoki before their fight got interrupted? What about pushing Hebi Sasuke to the limit? What about capturing Gaara? Please; Deidara has one shitty performance due to bad writing and you people are ready to crucify him for it. Meanwhile, Tsunade got her ass whooped by part 1 Kabuto and you don't say anything about it.


This.....
in the BD,, it is more important to bring feats above portrayal since they can giive us a more adequate response on who wins a certain battle,,,, 
portrayal is also important but should mostly be considered when both of the characters lack enough feats to accurately judge an outcome


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 16, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The same tactic I already stated; using Katsuyu as a distraction and planting an attack on his forehead.



That tacting will only work once. If that tactic fails, the slug will be left behind as Deidara will get away from it.



> Scan ? That also doesn't mean much as Deidara was casually dodging his sand attacks from all directions. So "surprising" him was probably centered more towards the amount of sand rather the speed. It's also to note that panel time various a lot.



Deidara stopped looking at Gaara by a second, gaara just had to rise his arms and inmediately a huge amount of sand was above his head. And considering that Deidara dodged almost all that sand at an equal height, the sand is guided and faster than Katsuyu's acid, i would not doubt his proficiency when it comes to dodge Katsuyu.



> True they "usually aren't " especially if they are inconsistent. But this one is about as consistent as it gets, considering Tsunade blitzed Oro right before It's also to note that Tsunade accomplished said feat with a ridiculous amount of restrictions; Rusty, size of sword, not knowing where Manda was going to appear , having to jump over a boss summon , etc.... This is also doesn't discount her Oro blitzing feat, or the difference between Rusty Tsunade and Current Tsunade .



I am well aware of that, and i am not taking credit away from her, on the other hand, i am putting more faith in Deidara. Not because i don't see Tsunade pulling that off, but because it's a plan that will only work once, and if it fails, Deidara won't stay near them. Probabilities are against her in this plan.



> Deidara doesn't have the knowledge to perfectly assume he should keep a ridiculous amount of range away from a 5'3 old women and a slug. He barely stayed away from Hebi Sasuke. Even if he does "run away," what is he going to do ? Would he prepare to fight a no knowledge opponent better then Tsunade( higher intelligence btw) prepares to fight an opponent she has 100% knowledge on?



I never said he was going to get away from them at the very start of the match. I said he will find out about Tsunade's strenght and Katsuyu's acid before dying, because it only needs one demostration of her to know that he needs to be away. He only needs to see Katsuyu, as the Bijuu hunter that he is, to know that the slug can affect his flight, to at least assume it can do something or know that Tsunade can use it as a platform.

All this is enough for him to stay away. He doesn't need to be much away however, just out of the range of a combination that could surprise him, and if Tsunade let's him away for long, she risks that he can put a lot of land mines and prepare several explosive bunshins.



> I don't remember Deidara doing anything special with clone feints or explosive clones ? Nothing that Byakugo Tsunade with superior durabilty can't just run through.



He almost killed Team Gai with a clay bunshin if Neji didn't warn them and Kakashi didn't warp it. He pulled that off at the sight of everybody. He created a clone and forced Sasuke to eat a C4. The guy tricked two superior analytical combatants than Tsunade with them. Tsunade can heal through it, i have no doubt about that, but running through the clone like nothing is something i don't see.




> His C1 clay isn't doing shit to Tsunade . Tanking Yasaka(an explosive type of Justu) known as sussanos most powerful projectile with 0 injuries leads me to believe Deidara has nothing bar C4 in his arsenal to damage Tsunade + Katsuyu. It's also to note that because Tsunade has 100% knowledge on an explosive user that she will cover herself in Katsuyu to cushion the explosive effect


.

Madara's Yasaka Magatama, the one he used on Tsunade, pales in comparison to a bigger one. That mini Magatama pales in comparison to what a C2 has done, like breaking the durable CS2 Sasuke's wing. I didn't say C1 was going to kill her or anything, i said he would use them to fight Tsunade and get knowledge about her strenght with it. C2 can damage her, C3 can definitely kill her but i don't see him risking himself too much here with the height restriction. C4 on the other hand, can be used effectively.

Tsunade will need to come out of Katsuyu and attack. She needs to breath, so i doubt she will be inside the slug all the time, and doing that will only let Deidara formulate a plan, since only Katsuyu would be attacking and not Tsunade. She can do only one thing at the time, protect herself inside the slug, or attack and exposed to being bombarded.



> Not to mention that Deidara will never resort to any thing you mentioned in a no knowledge situation where his flying height is capped off below Tsunades  casual jumping height.



He will gain knowledge pretty fast in this fight. I don't think Deidara is so bad that he will die that fast.



> I don't understand why you assume Tsunade is going to fight in the least logical way in this battle despite her having full knowledge . If she knows Deidara is a long ranged fighter then she's going to kill him before he gets comfortable mid flight. Tsuande doesn't resort to "throwing boulders " because she usually doesn't have full knowledge , and I doubt throwing rocks at Madara, Pain , and Oro would amount to anything. Throwing boulders at Deidara , however, would kill the bitch.



Mmm, but why throwing boulders? I mean, Deidara can dodge that, or can explode the bombs and abuse the dust in the air to throw more bombs. And if throwing a huge boulder at him is telling him how much strenght she has. And that's it, she cannot kill Deidara before he goes airborne. Gai couldn't, and he is faster and had knowledge already, plus, started at a extremely close distance.



> You seem to forget how restricted Deidara is. Being able to fly perfectly in the range of a "hop " to Tsuande and having 0 knowledge leads me to believe Tsunade 2 panels Deidara. If you give Hiruzen no knowledge , and no elemental Justu, then I'm inclined to say Tsunade or [ insert any Mid Tier Kage] one shots the old fucker also.



Deidara is restricted to fly higher, not to fly. He already dodged Gaara's sand from the same height, and already countered faster Shinobis than her in close range without arms. Flight restriction doesn't make Deidara slower, he keeps his proficiency in the skies, while all of Tsunade's jumps are linear and bound to physics, Deidara's effort of dodging them relies on moving a bit to the right or left, and bombard her back when she misses her punch. I am not forgetting his restriction, i am telling you how fast the dude is.



> You also seem to forget that Tsunade is on the level of Deidara flying speed via feats. He is not going to be outpacing anything and just blocking her LoS will be nigh impossible even when knowledge.



Jumping only takes Tsunade that far unless she can change directions in mid-air. When Tsunade jumps, she will have to wait for her to land by gravity, not by her own strenght, considering she is going to jump up, trying to tag Deidara. That is not going to help her unless she calculates where Deidara is going to evade and jumps there, something i admitted as a possibility, but something that wouldn't make Tsunade wins more times than not considering it's just a plan that will only work once.



> I agree however, that if this is an equal match, that Deidara wins, as he's just a very bad match up for Tsunade. BUT under these stipulations, Tsunade wins handily.



I somehow agree here, the times Tsunade wins the fight with these stipulations will be an easy win, because she will be surprising a no knowledge Deidara badly, however, out of 10 fights, this tactic is not working, in my eyes, more than 3 times out of 10. My reasons are said above.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 16, 2014)

The sand wasn't above his head, LostSelf. It was still on the outskirts of the village in that panel, it was just so large that Deidara's figure overlaps it.

And has Gaara really given us any reason to believe his non-gourd sand is actually faster than Katsuyu's acid?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 16, 2014)

Deidara being fodderized by the ambush Squad clearly suggests Tsunade would own him. The gap in DB stat totals between the two is the same gap as between CE-Tenten and CE-Temari, we all know how that battle went. Tsunade's hype dwarfs Deidara's and her displays dwarf anything Deidara has ever done; holding her own against the Madara clones dwarfs how an upgraded Deidara was treated by the author against the ambush squad. This is just the facts.

---------------------
As for considering Deidara's other performances. Here I'll do that as well:

Deidara defeated one of the weakest Kages we've seen -- if not thee weakest -- by relying on an underhanded trick. So okay, If Deidara fought Tsunade in Konoha, and Tsunade had to defend the village, while also fighting Deidara; Deidara might win. That is if Tsunade is considered equivalent to Start of Part II Gaara, a very beneficial assumption for Deidara.

Deidara w/ help from Obito pushed a Hebi-Sasuke who did not have killer intent a great deal. So okay, if Deidara had help from Obito, and Tsunade was not fighting with the intent to kill, he could put up a good fight against Tsunade. That is if Tsunade is considered equivalent to Hebi-Sasuke, a very beneficial assumption for Deidara.

Pick your poison, ether way Deidara's prior performances indicate that in a fair 1v1 match he gets low diffed by Tsunade. 
---------------------

As for feats, I can make up the same ridiculous "feats" based arguments  everyone else makes for Deidara, for Tsunade. 

- Tsunade FCD's a 5%, 10%, etc... Katsuya killing Deidara instantly
- Tsunade hurls a Giant Katsuya at Deidara, than has it split into thousands of mini katsuya that rain acid down on Diedara or latch on him to have reverse shosen channeled through them KO'ing Deidara instantly. 
- Tsunade summons multiple Katsuya to blast Deidara out the sky with Acid

By feats Deidara failed to dodge a simple shuriken trick and sai's neo, he isn't doding any of that shit, so all of that is GG.

- Tsunade can also feign death and than beat the bajesus out of Deidara when he turns his back. 
- Tsunade can also kill Deidara in CQC by blowing him away with the shockwave of her punch or grabbing a tree, boulder, etc.. extending her reach and preventing Deidara from dodging.
- Tsunade summons Katsuya who melds to the ground Deidara's walking on and than channels reverse shosen through Katsuya KOIng Deidara

Considering Deidara stays near the ground and dicks around with C1 in the beginning of the match ether of these methods are GG for him.

Additionally by feats Deidara's clay is something he must prep before the match. Since Deidara doesn't have prior prep here the amount of clay he has at the start of the match is totally random. It could very well be next to none, in which case Deidara won't even have the clay to produce the higher end Kibaku Nendo models that are needed to actually have a chance to get past Tsunade's Byakugo. So Tsunade just casually regens everything and stomps the crap out of Deidara in that case.

So there you go, a "feats" based conclusion that Tsunade would stomp Deidara, just as nonsensical as the rest of these "feats" based arguments


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 16, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The sand wasn't above his head, LostSelf. It was still on the outskirts of the village in that panel, it was just so large that Deidara's figure overlaps it.



I am talking about Gaara's head, that part of the sand cannot be so much bigger than the village to look that huge in the outskirts. And the upper part of the Tsunami looks way bigger than the lower parts. Sure, Gaara was spreading it more, but parts of the sand not attached to the Tsunami looks big enough and closer, if you compare it with the lower part.



> And has Gaara really given us any reason to believe his non-gourd sand is actually faster than Katsuyu's acid?



Actually, my argument about Gaata spamming that huge amount of sand above his head is one of them. However, even if the sand it's not above Gaara's head, it is still a good speed feat considering that Gaara lifted that huge amount of sand, bigger than the sand village in one panel, just rising his arms.

Aside from that, Gaara was able to surround Deidara incredibly fast here:



And it took only one panel. I am confident that it travels faster than Katsuyu's acid, even though we don't know the speed of her acid. Aside from that, if we assume that both has the same speed, Gaara's sand is guided and bigger, and Deidara was able to outmaneuver it for long periods of time.

I honestly don't see Katsuyu's acid giving him troubles.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 16, 2014)

So, can Tsunade regenerate her blown up head?

This is a rape thread. Deidara is leagues faster than Tsunade. I don't get why everyone assumes Tsunade can trick Deidara, but don't assume the converse of Deidara out smarting Tsunade. Tsunade was outsmarted by part 1 Kabuto while Deidara defeated Gaara in his home turf. The level of intelligence between the two is not even close.


----------



## RedChidori (Apr 16, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> C3 for Katsuyu, C4 for Tsunade. They are hardly touching an aerial and reflexive Shinobi like Deidara.



This, most definitely .



> Deidara in his epic stupidity runs into CQC and gets destroyed by Tsunade. Deidara portrayal is just horrible, I mean do you think Tsunade who fought against 5 Susanoo using wood clones would get stomped by the ambush squad like Deidara did? We think that Kishi would not think that .



Such epic trolling .


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 16, 2014)

Why does everybody have an angry fireball thing for a username!? 



LostSelf said:


> I am talking about Gaara's head, that part of the sand cannot be so much bigger than the village to look that huge in the outskirts.



It isn't above Gaara's head either- he's only a couple meters away from Deidara, the only sand above his head is the sand that came from his gourd; and I don't see why his wave of sand can't be that big.



> Actually, my argument about Gaata spamming that huge amount of sand above his head is one of them. However, even if the sand it's not above Gaara's head, it is still a good speed feat considering that Gaara lifted that huge amount of sand, bigger than the sand village in one panel, just rising his arms.



A panel doesn't have a fixed time frame, so it really doesn't prove anything.

But if you want to go by that logic: Katsuyu's acid spray happened in one panel, and whereas Gaara had to raise his arms to direct the sand Katsuyu requires no set up whatsoever.



> Aside from that, Gaara was able to surround Deidara incredibly fast here:



You get that it happened incredibly fast how?

Deidara had to blast his way out anyway, he couldn't just speed out of there.


----------



## animeboy1 (Apr 17, 2014)

Knowledge: Full for Tsunade
Deidara starts on the ground, can't fly above 100 feet. He was partly on the ground against Hebi Sasuke, may not instantly take to the air(he's facing a fodder). Tsunade will probably capitalize on her chances in the beginning with Katsuyu.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 17, 2014)

I don't get what you asked before quoting me .



FlamingRain said:


> It isn't above Gaara's head either- he's only a couple meters away from Deidara, the only sand above his head is the sand that came from his gourd; and I don't see why his wave of sand can't be that big.



Even if that's the way, Gaara one panelled all that sand.



> A panel doesn't have a fixed time frame, so it really doesn't prove anything.



Except that this panel is a sequence, Gaara lifts his arms, Deidara hears the sound and sees what is happening and the sand is already that big.



> But if you want to go by that logic: Katsuyu's acid spray happened in one panel, and whereas Gaara had to raise his arms to direct the sand Katsuyu requires no set up whatsoever.



Katsuyu can shoot acid in one panel, or at least, with enough speed to shoot it in one (even though she was preparing her acid with enough time to Orochimaru to note it, but i don't think Deidara will note that flying and kee?ng an eye to Tsunade), however, this doesn't compare to a gigantic wave of sand that is constantly pressuring you, changing shape and coming from different directions. Katsuyu's acid is uncontrolled once she shoots it, Deidara just needs to calculate where it's going to fall, move, and that's it. With Gaara's sand it isn't.



> You get that it happened incredibly fast how?
> 
> Deidara had to blast his way out anyway, he couldn't just speed out of there.



Exactly, you answered yourself there. That panel was another sequence. Deidara was looking at Gaara and talking, and all of a sudden he is covered by sand. Panels doesn't count as an especific time frame, but some of them are very clear when they happen one moment after the other, just like this, or Gai's blitz to Sasuke, for example.

If you don't believe that yet, you can see how the dust of the explosion is still in Gaara's gourd sand when he has all the sand covering Deidara. And look how it wasn't there (the sand) where Deidara was talking to himself. Therefore the dust should've moved a little bit while Deidara was talking, and then Gaara quickly covered him in sand. Even particles of the explosions/sand are still in the air by the time Gaara covered him.

If Deidara couldn't speed out of there was because he was surprised for a second by the speed of the sand and almost paid the price. Before that, you see the sand almost keeping up with him when Deidara was paying attention.

Even though i don't know how Katsuyu's acid compares to that, it hasn't been noted as fast, just deadly. But even if we equalize the speed of Katsuyu's acid to that of Gaara, it's still not comparable because of the reasons i stated above, and Deidara showed he could dodge said sand while keeping an eye on Gaara and controlling his birds, using them to outmaneuver the sand as well...

I keep my stance, i don't see Katsuyu's acid giving him any kind of troubles.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 17, 2014)

Deidara babyshakes.



Turrin said:


> Deidara being fodderized by the ambush Squad clearly suggests Tsunade would own him. The gap in DB stat totals between the two is the same gap as between CE-Tenten and CE-Temari, we all know how that battle went. Tsunade's hype dwarfs Deidara's and her displays dwarf anything Deidara has ever done; holding her own against the Madara clones dwarfs how an upgraded Deidara was treated by the author against the ambush squad. This is just the facts.
> 
> ---------------------
> As for considering Deidara's other performances. Here I'll do that as well:
> ...



Tsunade is the weakest of the sannin based on feats, accomplishments and hype.
Deidara was implied to have the capability of killing Orochimar. Stated more than once. 

Based on portrayal Deidara is above Tsunade.

Based on feats, its not even a contest.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 17, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I don't get what you asked before quoting me .



They switched it back to make me look crazy.  Just ignore me. 



> Even if that's the way, Gaara one panelled all that sand.



Yes, and one-paneling it doesn't mean it happened quickly because a panel is not a fixed time frame.

Being part of a sequence doesn't necessarily make it quantifiable.



> Katsuyu can shoot acid in one panel, or at least, with enough speed to shoot it in one (even though she was preparing her acid with enough time to Orochimaru to note it, but i don't think Deidara will note that flying and kee?ng an eye to Tsunade),



She was "preparing it" as a warning to Orochimaru, it canonically requires no preparation to actually spew.



> however, this doesn't compare to a gigantic wave of sand that is constantly pressuring you, changing shape and coming from different directions. Katsuyu's acid is uncontrolled once she shoots it, Deidara just needs to calculate where it's going to fall, move, and that's it. With Gaara's sand it isn't.



Gaara's shapes were static in the skies, they were maintained as arms whilst Gaara's hand-movements made their incoming motions easier to anticipate. 

When the shapes actually changed Deidara was caught; but this is irrelevant to the topic: which is how _fast_ the sand is, not how versatile it is.



> If you don't believe that yet, you can see how the dust of the explosion is still in Gaara's gourd sand when he has all the sand covering Deidara.



Dust lingers, though, especially amounts as copious as that. For all we know the sand was directly beneath Deidara and simply shifted in the panel following. Because it was behind him, and Deidara isn't a sensor, he had no way to notice irregardless of its speed until the shadow encompassed him well after the sand would have started forming.



> If Deidara couldn't speed out of there was because he was surprised for a second by the speed of the sand and almost paid the price. Before that, you see the sand almost keeping up with him when Deidara was paying attention.



That is circular reasoning.

You're saying Deidara's bird is faster than _Zesshi Nensan_ based on Gaara's sand is faster than _Zesshi Nensan_ because Gaara's sand can keep up with Deidara's bird.



> Even though i don't know how Katsuyu's acid compares to that, it hasn't been noted as fast, just deadly.



It's been noted as sudden (occurring quickly), whilst Deidara specified that the gourd sand specifically was how Gaara launched his fast attacks, as opposed to the desert sand which has a less dense concentration of Chakra in it.



> But even if we equalize the speed of Katsuyu's acid to that of Gaara, it's still not comparable because of the reasons i stated above



Except my question was specifically about their speeds.


----------



## Kai (Apr 17, 2014)

Turrin said:
			
		

> The gap in DB stat totals between the two is the same gap as between CE-Tenten and CE-Temari, we all know how that battle went.


Yo Turrin.

Do you honestly believe, with a straight face, that alluding to Ten Ten and Temari's databook stat totals from the Chuunin Exams is a viable argument in determining the outcome of a fight between Tsunade and Deidara?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Deidara was implied to have the capability of killing Orochimar. Stated more than once.


Deidara only expressed that he wanted to kill Orochimaru himself. Did any other characters imply Deidara could kill Orochimaru? 

The fodder in the bar expressed he wanted to kill Itachi himself. The syntax used isn't a basis for an implication


----------



## Turrin (Apr 17, 2014)

Kai said:


> Yo Turrin.
> 
> Do you honestly believe, with a straight face, that alluding to Ten Ten and Temari's databook stat totals from the Chuunin Exams is a viable argument in determining the outcome of a fight between Tsunade and Deidara?


Yes I 100% believe that. The author tells us that the DB Stat Totals are a measure of that shinobi's total ability, a gap of 3 points is rather significant in the DB Stat Totals; CE Temari and CE Tenten is merely one example, which serves to illustrate that. Do I believe that alone determines who will win the fight, no, but it does show there is a significant gap between Tsunade's overall ability as a shinobi and Deidara's adding another major piece of evidence suggesting Tsunade would indeed defeat Deidara and probably not with too much difficulty ether.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tsunade is the weakest of the sannin based on feats, accomplishments and hype.
> Deidara was implied to have the capability of killing Orochimar. Stated more than once.
> .


The only one who implied Deidara had the ability to beat Orochimaru was Deidara and even than we don't know if Deidara was factoring in Orochimaru being in a weakened state. I would venture to guess that Deidara was indeed factoring that in, considering he waited to make a move on Orochimaru until the 3 years were up. But anyway, if we take Deidara's own estimations of himself as evidence of his superiority, than Deidara also thought he had the ability to beat Itachi; So Deidara > Itachi Grimjow? In reality the only rational way to take Deidara's statements are as boasts from a character that greatly overestimated himself, many times to his own detriment.

Furthermore if anything were to indicate how Deidara would directly perform against Orochimaru (besides Oro's hype eclipsing Deidara's) it would be the fact that Karin questions why someone who defeated Orochimaru was so beat up by Deidara, and Sasuke's answer was not that Deidara > Orochimaru, but that Orochimaru was weakened; that's one of the clearest implications you can get that one character is superior to another outside of a point blank statement claiming one character's superiority or DB stats reflecting one characters superiority (which incidentally they do reflect Oro's superiority)


----------



## The Undying (Apr 17, 2014)

The only thing I'm getting from this thread is people overglorifying some "feats" and just flat-out ignoring others when it's convenient for their argument, and then having the gall to suggest that feats are significantly more important than portrayal.

Hilarious and sad.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The only one who implied Deidara had the ability to beat Orochimaru was Deidara and even than we don't know if Deidara was factoring in Orochimaru being in a weakened state. I would venture to guess that Deidara was indeed factoring that in, considering he waited to make a move on Orochimaru until the 3 years were up. But anyway, if we take Deidara's own estimations of himself as evidence of his superiority, than Deidara also thought he had the ability to beat Itachi; So Deidara > Itachi Grimjow? In reality the only rational way to take Deidara's statements are as boasts from a character that greatly overestimated himself, many times to his own detriment.



If noone in Akatsuki believed Deidara couldn't accomplish it, then they would have said so.

Its a good thing you brought up Karin & Sasuke convo. Karin thought Sasuke beat Orochimaru fair and square, but Sasuke corrected her about it. 
Same would apply to Deidara. If Deidara was just boasting without substance, someone would shut him up. The thing is, going by Akatsuki standarts, Orochimaru wasn't out of anyone's reach. 
Maybe except for the weakest members like Hidan or Zetsu or Konan.



> Furthermore if anything were to indicate how Deidara would directly perform against Orochimaru (besides Oro's hype eclipsing Deidara's) it would be the fact that Karin questions why someone who defeated Orochimaru was so beat up by Deidara, and Sasuke's answer was not that Deidara > Orochimaru, but that Orochimaru was weakened; that's one of the clearest implications you can get that one character is superior to another outside of a point blank statement claiming one character's superiority or DB stats reflecting one characters superiority (which incidentally they do reflect Oro's superiority)



Sasuke was just being humble. He was granted the title of "Slayer of Orochimaru" but he wasn't comfortable with that. Because he attacked Orochimaru in his death bed, he probably didn't want to take credit for something that he didn't deserve fully. I'd have said the same thing in response to what Karin said. 

Databook stats argument is worthless, as both Deidara and Orochimaru have 5 in ninjutsu, 3.5 in taijutsu, 4.5 in speed and 3.5 in stamina, the only stats that really matter for both in combat.

Orochimaru is more intelligent and knowledgeable and has better genjutsu stat and perhaps seals, none of which directly contribute to their fighting potential, considering neither of them are genjutsu users and even if you take Oro's 5 in genjutsu @ face value, Deidara has an anti genjutsu mechanism  that even allows him to break sharingan genjutsu. So Orochimaru's superior genjutsu prowess becomes redundant in a confrontation between the two.

I'd agree that Orochimaru is a better shinobi overall, and certainly has a higher level of reputation(but his reputation also ecplipses Itachi's), although combat wise I wouldn't rate him on a higher level than Deidara. These are different things. Orochimaru was a better manipulator, a better survivor, a better scientist, a more charismatic and knowledgeable individual but going off solely by their fighting potential he wasn't superior to Deidara.




Kai said:


> Deidara only expressed that he wanted to kill Orochimaru himself. Did any other characters imply Deidara could kill Orochimaru?


If what Deidara expressed was so outlandish, then one of the 9 members of Akatsuki would tell him so. 

Also Kishimoto wouldn't throw it out there for no reason, twice(or was it 3 times?).

It was clear that Kishimoto was trying to establish Deidara as a shinobi capable of killing a Sannin.
Even if he overall wasn't as reputable or as complete as one.



> The fodder in the bar expressed he wanted to kill Itachi himself. The syntax used isn't a basis for an implication



Do we know how powerful that fodder was ?


----------



## Rocky (Apr 17, 2014)

Tsunade does indeed hold more to her name than Deidara, but Deidara is certainly capable of killing her. It isn't some immeasurable gap like Hashirama or Madara vs. Deidara.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yes I 100% believe that. The author tells us that the DB Stat Totals are a measure of that shinobi's total ability, a gap of 3 points is rather significant in the DB Stat Totals; CE Temari and CE Tenten is merely one example, which serves to illustrate that. Do I believe that alone determines who will win the fight, no, but it does show there is a significant gap between Tsunade's overall ability as a shinobi and Deidara's adding another major piece of evidence suggesting Tsunade would indeed defeat Deidara and probably not with too much difficulty ether.


By that logic, neiji would have completely wrecked lee at any time that the databook covered....


----------



## Veracity (Apr 17, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> That tacting will only work once. If that tactic fails, the slug will be left behind as Deidara will get away from it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She only needs on chance. A heavily surprised Deidara doesn't have the speed to dodge a lady who slings building sized swords faster then boss summons while being Rusty and exhausted. She's also faster then Oro currently, and I see no reason to believe Deidara is any faster then him. 

I don't understand how that makes him fast especially considering the time frame that happened between the panel. Deidara was just standing there, showed absolutely no surprise, and said that Gaara had the geographical advantage. Which hints towards the size of the sand rather the speed.

True. He can dodge Katusyu, I never argued against this. He just cant dodge Tsunade. She's faster then the gigantic waves of sand Gaara was controlling. She's faster then Oro for that matter.

I don't have any faith in Deidara based on his flying cap and lack of knowledge. He won't really be expecting anything. So it's Completely plausible that she can end him early on. 

He won't have the chance to find out about Tsunades power without tasting her fist first. Tsunade with full knowledge on Deidara will deploy a pretty damn excellent plan. Like the plan I posted above actually.   Tsunade doesn't need Katsuyu as a platform. She cold traverse double the distance of Manda and swing a sword above Gambunta( 100 m) nigh causally ,while rusty, and in "one panel." The height Deidara could prove no problem. She is more then fast enough to end his life at even that height. I don't understand how Deidara can stay away when Tsunade can easily keep up with his speed, when Tsunade has hundreds of Katusyu distractions , and he's a casual hopping distance away. 

Can I get a scan for this feat, because I feel like it's being exaggerated greatly here.  

He had prior knowledge on Sasuke, gained a distance gap on Sasuke, and Sasuke watched as he deployed C4 in front of his body blocking his line of sight, allowing Deidara to do whatever the fuck he wanted.

C1 or C2 still lack the feats to hurt Tsunade, unless solid  feats are provided. Blowing off a CS2 wing doesn't amount to much actually.

Madara's Yasaka was the same size it usually was against Tsunade ? Could you provide a scan to show the size difference , because according to my knowledge there was no difference except the amount he hit Tsunade with.

What has C2 done ? It holds a gigantic explosion , but does far less damage because the explosion isn't nearly as concentrated like Yasaka. Sasukes CS2 wing has what durabilty feat ? 

No, she will only need to place small amounts of Katusyu across her body to lessen the damage, not sit inside Katsuyu lol. Placing parts of Katsuyu around her vital areas, so she can basically just blitz through explosions.  She only would need to sit inside Katsuyu to block C3 possibly and that's not possibly needed. 

I think Deidara will ultimately be killed before he gains any knowledge.

Throwing boulders would not be Tsunades first tactic . But it's still could work. Using Katusyu as a distraction would certainly leave an opening for Tsunade to toss a body sized boulder at incredible speeds( can lift Buntas tanto with is the size of a freaking building) . Or she can simply use her body. I'm more then confident that with a distraction she could land a hit on Deidara as she's faster then Oro, and Oro and Deidara shouldn't be much faster then Oro.

Gai couldn't because:
? Deidara had knowledge on Gai
? Gai had less knowledge on Deidara
? Mid- Shippuden exhausted Base Gai has no feats to suggest he's faster then Tsuande.

Gaara sand lacks speed, especially considering he was moving building size waves of sand. I doubt it's fast tbh. I doubt base Gai at that time was faster then Tsunade. Tsunade is faster then you think.

Flying higher is the problem. It takes Tsunade a set amount of time to jump a set amount of height. If Deidara is lower then Tsunade can get to his height easier. Deidara is only going to be at 100 feet which is 1/3 the size of Katsuyu. Tsunade already canonically leaped 3 times that height with something atleast 1000 times her weight while rusty in one panel. The exact same time frame you are using to judge Gaara's sand speed. Albeit the fact that Tsunades feat happened mid battle rather in a casual conversation like against Deidara.

I think the tactic will work almost 100% of the time. Deidara doesn't have the speed to dodge it


----------



## Eliyua23 (Apr 17, 2014)

Think about this for a second , Tsunade didnt even leave her post when the likes of Deidara were around in the manga , she didnt actively get involved until Nagato came into the picture that should tell you something , think about it like this Naruto and Sasuke before Sage Mode and MS were dealing with Deidara level opponents .

Tsunade is on another tier from Deidara , everything from feats , data score, portrayal, hype , literary sense all lean in Tsunade's favor decisively


----------



## Turrin (Apr 17, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> By that logic, neiji would have completely wrecked lee at any time that the databook covered....


Except the increases of Gates are obviously not counted in the DB.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 17, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If noone in Akatsuki believed Deidara couldn't accomplish it, then they would have said so.


You act as if Akatsuki members were A) Aware of Deidara's plan, B) Unaware of Orochimaru becoming weakened before switching bodies, C) didn't account for his partner, D) Cared if Deidara failed, & E) That the Akatsuki members didn't off panel tell Deidara his chances of victory are very low and Deidara ignore them

A) Akatsuki members could have easily assumed Deidara had some underhanded tactic to assassinate Orochimaru, that at least impart mitigate the strength difference

B) Akatsuki members could have been aware that Orochimaru was weakened and that is why they believed Deidara had a chance to win

C) Akatsuki members could have believed that Deidara with help from his partner could take out Orochimaru who is otherwise stronger than him

D) Akatsuki members could have just not cared that much if he failed. I mean they did send him and Sasori to capture Naruto, despite knowing he was heavily weakened and didn't care much at all when he failed.

E) Akatsuki members could have very well told Deidara he didn't stand much of a chance to win, and he could have ignored their pleas for caution. Just like he ignore Sasori telling him to be cautious around the Shukaku Jinchuuriki.

Anyone of this options or a combination of multiple could explain why none of the Akatsuki members were like "hold up bro", you can't win.



> The thing is, going by Akatsuki standarts, Orochimaru wasn't out of anyone's reach.


I don't see what this is based off.



> Sasuke was just being humble. He was granted the title of "Slayer of Orochimaru" but he wasn't comfortable with that. Because he attacked Orochimaru in his death bed, he probably didn't want to take credit for something that he didn't deserve fully. I'd have said the same thing in response to what Karin said.


The problem is the context was why did this guy beat you up so bad, if you defeated Orochimaru. To which Sasuke answered he only beat a handicapped Orochimaru. It is extremely clear contextually that Orochimaru was being touted as the superior ninja, and if someone could beat him they shouldn't have had much issue with Deidara.



> Databook stats argument is worthless, as both Deidara and Orochimaru have 5 in ninjutsu, 3.5 in taijutsu, 4.5 in speed and 3.5 in stamina, the only stats that really matter for both in combat.


This is extremely silly. All Stats matter for combat.  Some might matter less, but they still matter.



> Orochimaru is more intelligent and knowledgeable and has better genjutsu stat and perhaps seals, none of which directly contribute to their fighting potential, considering neither of them are genjutsu users and even if you take Oro's 5 in genjutsu @ face value, Deidara has an anti genjutsu mechanism that even allows him to break sharingan genjutsu. So Orochimaru's superior genjutsu prowess becomes redundant in a confrontation between the two.


Deidara's eye was designed for visual Genjutsu. Do we know what type of Genjutsu Orochimaru casts? Would Deidara even anticipate Orochimaru being so good at Genjutsu and bother to use his eye, before it's too late.



> I'd agree that Orochimaru is a better shinobi overall, and certainly has a higher level of reputation(but his reputation also ecplipses Itachi's), although combat wise I wouldn't rate him on a higher level than Deidara.


Well considering your excluding whole stats as worthless to combat and not considering that Orochimaru base statistical score is better than Deidara's, which speaks volumes considering he has summons on top of that. So I can't see your estimate as accurate. 



> Orochimaru was a better manipulator, a better survivor, a better scientist, a more charismatic and knowledgeable individual but going off solely by their fighting potential he wasn't superior to Deidara.


- Orochimaru has superior stats without even counting his summons
- Orochimaru hype as not just a scientist, but a powerful ninja dwarfs Deidara's
- Orochimaru defeated Yondaime Kazekage, the strongest Gokage (Hiruzen), duked it out with KN4 while significantly handicapped, etc... meanwhile Deidara is getting raped by the ambush squad
- It's very clear that Sasuke and Karin considered Orochimaru the superior shinobi to Deidara
- etc...

Orochimaru > Deidara is one of the most clear character comparisons in the entire manga-cannon.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 17, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> They switched it back to make me look crazy.  Just ignore me.



.



> Yes, and one-paneling it doesn't mean it happened quickly because a panel is not a fixed time frame.
> 
> Being part of a sequence doesn't necessarily make it quantifiable.



Unless Deidara heard the sound and did not look what happened right away, then i don't know why this couldn't have happened right away. The sound came right when Deidara finished his little birds. Gaara and his Dad showed they could manipulate huge amount of sand/gold quick enough.



> She was "preparing it" as a warning to Orochimaru, it canonically requires no preparation to actually spew.



Why would she warn Orochimaru when she has to protect Tsunade? It's a very risky thing to do.



> Gaara's shapes were static in the skies, they were maintained as arms whilst Gaara's hand-movements made their incoming motions easier to anticipate.



You see different hands here and a line telling his Deidara's trajectory. It wouldn't make sense for Gaara to create a huge hand with hands in the middle, and it wouldn't make sense for Deidara to reach move above the sand throwing explosives and then play cat and mouse.

The only possible thing i see here is that Gaara was extending and changing the shape of the sand to catch him



> When the shapes actually changed Deidara was caught; but this is irrelevant to the topic: which is how _fast_ the sand is, not how versatile it is.



Deidara was caught by the gourd sand when he thought he escaped the sand prison.




> Dust lingers, though, especially amounts as copious as that. For all we know the sand was directly beneath Deidara and simply shifted in the panel following. Because it was behind him, and Deidara isn't a sensor, he had no way to notice irregardless of its speed until the shadow encompassed him well after the sand would have started forming.



Not always. Here the dust is not there seconds after.

Here the dust instantly vanished after exploding inside the sand shield. And in the same panel, the dust of the huge ass C3 was nowhere to be seen again.

Therefore Gaara should've surrounded Deidara with the sand prison quick enough before the dust, that lasted less at much, two seconds, vanished. That is not counting the little debris that should've fallen, but were still there.



> That is circular reasoning.
> 
> You're saying Deidara's bird is faster than _Zesshi Nensan_ based on Gaara's sand is faster than _Zesshi Nensan_ because Gaara's sand can keep up with Deidara's bird.
> 
> ...



I didnt mean that. I said that Deidara was only surrounded because he was distracted for a second, wich implies how fast the sand is and how fast he is in the skies, because when he wasn't distracted, he kept up with the sand very well.



> Except my question was specifically about their speeds.


Fair enough.


----------



## Shanks (Apr 17, 2014)

Tsunade wins this.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You act as if Akatsuki members were A) Aware of Deidara's plan, B) Unaware of Orochimaru becoming weakened before switching bodies, C) didn't account for his partner, D) Cared if Deidara failed, & E) That the Akatsuki members didn't off panel tell Deidara his chances of victory are very low and Deidara ignore them



We are shown all important bits on panel, so the significant part was the establishment of Deidara as a shinobi capable of killing Orochimaru.
Semantics here are irrelevant. 



> A) Akatsuki members could have easily assumed Deidara had some underhanded tactic to assassinate Orochimaru, that at least impart mitigate the strength difference



Could be. But they also may have thought that Deidara was capable of killing him in a straigth battle.



> B) Akatsuki members could have been aware that Orochimaru was weakened and that is why they believed Deidara had a chance to win


Again could be, or not. Although Deidara's statement didn't seem to encompass a certain time frame, so I highly doubt that.



> C) Akatsuki members could have believed that Deidara with help from his partner could take out Orochimaru who is otherwise stronger than him


Deidara said "I" and was pissed that someone else did it, so no. 



> D) Akatsuki members could have just not cared that much if he failed. I mean they did send him and Sasori to capture Naruto, despite knowing he was heavily weakened and didn't care much at all when he failed.


Or they didn't know how powerful Kakashi or Naruto were or that Sasori'd lose to Chiyo & Sakura.

I am not arguing whether Akatsuki believed Deidara was certainly stronger than Orochimaru or he would kill him for certain. I am arguing that Akatsuki was contend that Deidara was* capable *of killing Orochimaru given they are familiar with both and their abilities.



> E) Akatsuki members could have very well told Deidara he didn't stand much of a chance to win, and he could have ignored their pleas for caution. Just like he ignore Sasori telling him to be cautious around the Shukaku Jinchuuriki.


Like I already mentioned, if that happened, Kishimoto would be obliged to mention in on panel contextually. 
I think it is just ridicilious to assume things that may have happened off panel. Anything may have happened off panel.



> Anyone of this options or a combination of multiple could explain why none of the Akatsuki members were like "hold up bro", you can't win.


Yes, if none of them were purely speculative and had some kind of a basis.




> I don't see what this is based off.


Portrayal.
Akatsuki as an organization represented a certain level of shinobi. 



> The problem is the context was why did this guy beat you up so bad, if you defeated Orochimaru. To which Sasuke answered he only beat a handicapped Orochimaru. It is extremely clear contextually that Orochimaru was being touted as the superior ninja, and if someone could beat him they shouldn't have had much issue with Deidara.



But Sasuke didn't beat Orochimaru, he ambushed a sickened Orochimaru. So beating Orochimaru didn't mean shit like Karin was trying to insinuate.




> This is extremely silly. All Stats matter for combat.  Some might matter less, but they still matter.


Lol no they don't. 

If a character is mainly a long range fighter their taijutsu stat isn't that significant. 
If Nagato had tier 1 taijutsu on paper, that wouldn't change a thing in regards to his fighting potential, considering he never uses taijutsu anyways. It would be insigifnicant if he was weak @ taijutsu or not. 

The only stats that directly effect Oro and Deidara's combat potential are even. 





> Deidara's eye was designed for visual Genjutsu. Do we know what type of Genjutsu Orochimaru casts? Would Deidara even anticipate Orochimaru being so good at Genjutsu and bother to use his eye, before it's too late.


We actually haven't seen Orochimaru cast genjutsu but as far we know the most common type is visual genjutsu. 
Also we weren't exactly told about the mechanics but Deidara's eye seemed to work automatically and allowed him to see through genjutsu. 


> Well considering your excluding whole stats as worthless to combat and not considering that Orochimaru base statistical score is better than Deidara's, which speaks volumes considering he has summons on top of that. So I can't see your estimate as accurate.


Orochimaru's strongest summon is manda, the same manda who got killed by coming in brief contact with c0.
Deidara's c3 was strong enough to flip over an island sized summon, I am pretty sure you wouldn't find a trace of manda if he were to be hit by that.


> - Orochimaru has superior stats without even counting his summons


summons are a part of his ninjutsu arsenal so thats what the 5 stands for.




> - Orochimaru hype as not just a scientist, but a powerful ninja dwarfs Deidara's


Actually Orochimaru's biggest accomplishments are his genetical experiments. Thats why I mentioned science. 


> - Orochimaru defeated Yondaime Kazekage,


Deidara defeated a stronger version, aka Jinchuuriki Gaara.



> the strongest Gokage (Hiruzen)


Hiruzen actually was forced to kill himself because he was a pathetic old man who had no option but to use Shiki Fuuin to get rid of 2 weak edos.



> , duked it out with KN4 while significantly handicapped, etc


Aside from the fact that he had to retreat from the fight earlier than he planned he had no handicaps. And he was getting his shit torn apart anyways.



> ... meanwhile Deidara is getting raped by the ambush squad


He also casually walked into sand village and capture their Kazekage and almost killed Team Gai & Team Kakashi with no arms had it not been for Kakashi's best Kamui feat up to date.


> - It's very clear that Sasuke and Karin considered Orochimaru the superior shinobi to Deidara


Sure she did, beause Orochimaru has probably a higher reputation than anyone else bar maybe Madara.



> Orochimaru > Deidara is one of the most clear character comparisons in the entire manga-cannon.


No. The only canon is that Orochimaru had more reputation than Deidara, but Deidara was portrayed to be on Orochimaru's level and was implied to have the capability of defeating Orochimaru.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 18, 2014)

If this match happened in the manga Tsunade would win. However, by feats the _very best_ she could do is pull off a draw, and to do that she would need a lot of stored chakra in her seal.​​


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 18, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> If this match happened in the manga Tsunade would win. However, by feats the _very best_ she could do is pull off a draw, and to do that she would need a lot of stored chakra in her seal.​​



I think if this fight happened in the manga, Deidara would knock her out without killing her, and someone would save her afterwards. Or Deidara would do something stupid after knocking her out and Tsunade would wake up and ambush him or something.

But I don't think Kishimoto could beliavably write a fight where Tsunade would defeat Deidara.


----------



## Dominus (Apr 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The gap in DB stat totals between the two is the same gap as between CE-Tenten and CE-Temari, we all know how that battle went.



Hidan: *31.5*
Yamato: *31*

Gaara: *29*

Does that mean that they would defeat Gaara as the Kazekage without much difficulty?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But I don't think Kishimoto could beliavably write a fight where Tsunade would defeat Deidara.



I do.

He knows Tsunade is a Sannin and _probably_ that she's the current Hokage, though it's possible that he wasn't aware of that. His knowledge of her abilities are limited to her just being a great medic. As such he has no reason to fly into the air and use C2, C3 or C4, which require a lot of clay usage, and which he isn't willing to use off the cuff.

He stays on the ground and spams C1 bombs. Even when Deidara saw that Sasuke was quick, his instant reaction wasn't to fly high into the air and rain explosives. He _stayed on the ground_ and within relatively close range, spamming C1 bombs for a while. It was only once Sasuke was able to _connect a hit_ that Deidara decided it was best to take to the skies. [1] Of course, if Deidara takes even one, fleeting hit from Tsunade the match is over. A finger poke or a graze would be enough to knock him out or critically injure him. He won't have the luxury of knowing to use C2+ then, because he'll already be half-dead. 

Also, while Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed, one point behind Deidara and Sasuke who have a 4.5, she also has a 5 in taijutsu, while Deidara and Sasuke only have 3.5. Tsunade is no slouch in speed either, having been able to move just as fast as Base Ei, as well as outpace an airborne Onoki (who was capable of keeping up with Deidara while he was on his clay bird). Tsunade could very feasibly land a hit on Deidara while he underestimates her with C1 bombs at the match's starting point.

So yes, I can see Kishimoto feasibly having Tsunade beat him.​​


----------



## Mithos (Apr 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But I don't think Kishimoto could beliavably write a fight where Tsunade would defeat Deidara.



Why not? He wrote a fight where Edo Deidara got trashed by Sai and the Ambush Squad. 

He died in his fight against Hebi Sasuke. Sasuke wasn't portrayed as being able to defeat or significantly threaten Kage level opponents until he gained MS.  

Plot-wise, Tsunade and the Sannin seem to be portrayed as being on a different level than Deidara.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 18, 2014)

I think "I think in the manga X character would win" are subject to personal opinion only. If Tsunade is not bound to die, she will either win or get badly injured but survive. If Tsunade is bound to die, she will die with however Kishimoto chooses.

Also, Sasuke _only_ managed to win because he had not only Sharingan, but the exact elemental advantage, both things that countered Deidara's explosives, on the other hand, a horrible matchup for Deidara, worse, when put to fight one of Kishimoto's dildos.

Without those, Sasuke, and anybody of his level, would've been outright defeated, and even with that, Sasuke needed an asspull to win.

Deidara's level is above Kazekage Gaara (A Jiinchuriki and _kage_) in the desert. He has never been shown below Tsunade.

Edo Tensei happen to be weaker forms than their living counterparts, and all of them were treated poorly, except Itachi and Madara.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 18, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> He died in his fight against Hebi Sasuke. Sasuke wasn't portrayed as being able to defeat or significantly threaten Kage level opponents until he gained MS.



That doesn't make sense because Deidara himself is Kage level.



LostSelf said:


> Deidara's level is above Kazekage Gaara (A Jiinchuriki and _kage_) in the desert. He has never been shown below Tsunade.



And at the same time he has never shown to be on par with or above her. She still has a whole lot more hype than he does.

Gaara in the desert isn't far off from the Fourth Kazekage, he might've even been weaker way back then. Orochimaru rolled right over the Fourth Kazekage and went on to grow bored playing around with a stronger Kage in Hiruzen, while Tsunade is canonically every bit as strong as he and Jiraiya are. There is no contradiction, so she is still above him.

When Deidara gave Sasuke difficulty Karin expressed surprise because Sasuke had also defeated Orochimaru previously, to which Sasuke clarified that Orochimaru was weakened, not that Deidara was simply that strong, so there isn't a contradiction there either.


Deidara's default height is only slightly higher than five meters high; the Slugging Princess drops Katsuyu on top of Deidara's head before he ever gets a grasp of her reach and flies off if they fight in the manga.



LostSelf said:


> Why would she warn Orochimaru when she has to protect Tsunade? It's a very risky thing to do.



Because if she could just convince Orochimaru to back off without having to release it she could re-focus that Chakra elsewhere, like sustaining the summoning and re-attaching Tsunade.



> You see different hands here and a line telling his Deidara's trajectory. It wouldn't make sense for Gaara to create a huge hand with hands in the middle, and it wouldn't make sense for Deidara to reach move above the sand throwing explosives and then play cat and mouse.
> 
> The only possible thing i see here is that Gaara was extending and changing the shape of the sand to catch him.



I'm pretty sure that's just Shukaku's influence as opposed to different hands, because it looks eerily similar to the shapes seen during the Chūnin Exam arc when Gaara began to draw on Shukaku's power and they're never seen again post-extraction. Gaara was just making arm shapes and having them chase Deidara, they didn't actually change outside of when Gaara tried forming a sphere around Deidara (which he couldn't evade).



> Deidara was caught by the gourd sand when he thought he escaped the sand prison.



The sand prison caught him, which is why he had to force his way out of it with a bomb, but yes the gourd sand caught him as well.



> Not always. Here the dust is not there seconds after.



Umm…it _is_ there seconds later, what do you think that bottom panel is? It's also seen again in the panel following Deidara's detonation of the clay within the sphere, as the dust that would have been produced by the miniature explosives within would have been dragged down beneath the falling sand and thus wouldn't be visible to us anyway.

_C3_ was on top of the sand while we were viewing it from beneath the shield's expanse, that's why we don't see anything from it.



> Therefore Gaara should've surrounded Deidara with the sand prison quick enough before the dust, that lasted less at much, two seconds, vanished.



It's amazing how subjective time interpretation is, because I figured that was a lot longer than two seconds. 



> I didnt mean that. I said that Deidara was only surrounded because he was distracted for a second,* wich implies how fast the sand is and how fast he is in the skies,* because when he wasn't distracted, he kept up with the sand very well.



That's still circular reasoning.

The method in which it caught him would have made its speed unimportant until its shadow was already overhead (which would only happen after it had already partially encapsulated Deidara), unless the sand is particularly loud, which I don't believe it is. It doesn't say anything about the speed of the sand, nor does it say anything about the speed of Deidara's bird. Deidara only evaded hands, and while Gaara directing it- making it easier to anticipate than the sphere formed when Gaara himself was shielded and his directions out of Deidara's sight.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 18, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I do.
> 
> He knows Tsunade is a Sannin and _probably_ that she's the current Hokage, though it's possible that he wasn't aware of that. His knowledge of her abilities are limited to her just being a great medic. As such he has no reason to fly into the air and use C2, C3 or C4, which require a lot of clay usage, and which he isn't willing to use off the cuff.
> 
> ...



A couple of points.

You just can't ignore the fact that Tsunade is a tad bit slower than Deidara & Sasuke. Deidara's initial reaction to Sasuke's shunshin was to just hop away. Thats what he'll do when Tsunade runs up to him. He won't stay and try to duke it out, so Taijutsu won't become a factor here.

You are also forgetting that Deidara without arms was able to fend off Team Gai and pull a bunshin feint during the commotion. He also pulled a bunshin feint on Sasuke and Jin Naruto during similar instances as well.

Tsunade has no realistic shot @ catching Deidara on the ground and beating him up when faster people failed to do so. And once Deidara hops on a bird, it is pretty much over for Tsunade.



Matto-sama said:


> Why not? He wrote a fight where Edo Deidara got trashed by Sai and the Ambush Squad.
> 
> He died in his fight against Hebi Sasuke. Sasuke wasn't portrayed as being able to defeat or significantly threaten Kage level opponents until he gained MS.
> 
> Plot-wise, Tsunade and the Sannin seem to be portrayed as being on a different level than Deidara.



Yes, thats why I said "But I don't think Kishimoto couldbelievably write a fight where Tsunade would defeat Deidara."

Sai had to reach Hebi Sasuke+ speeds out of convenience so that Deidara could be defeated.

Plus Sai could fly, all in all he is better equipped to deal with Deidara than Tsunade.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 18, 2014)

@grim

What makes you think Tsunade is slower then Deidara , despite the fact that she can blitz Oro while rusty and injured, is a shitload faster then Manda, and can coordinate attacks with the Gokage?

Deidara without arms was confronted by a ridiculously exhausted Gai , then used his clay bird as a distraction to use an explosion Bunshin.

There's also no evidence to assume that exhausted base Gai at that point in the manga is faster then a healthy Tsunade.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @grim
> 
> What makes you think Tsunade is slower then Deidara , despite the fact that she can blitz Oro while rusty and injured, is a shitload faster then Manda, and can coordinate attacks with the Gokage?
> 
> ...



Tsunade was also outsped by part 1 Kabauto. Deidara is much faster than Tsunade. He dodged Sasuke's shunshin and nearly killed team Gai and Team Kakashi without any arms.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 18, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Tsunade was also outsped by part 1 Kabauto. Deidara is much faster than Tsunade. He dodged Sasuke's shunshin and nearly killed team Gai and Team Kakashi without any arms.



A RUSTY already EXHAUSTED Tsunade stalemated Kabuto and was only caught off guard due to his advanced medical Justu. He also took a pill that increased his speed, and even commented saying that the only reason he even thought about going CQC with a top tier was because she was already exhausted.

Not it mention Kabuto took solider pills to increase his speed, Tsunade with her intercostal lungs severed managed to one panel Kabuto, and the fact that Tsunade was hardly serious or at her best at the time. As soon as she conquered her phobia, her stats increased significantly. She managed to outpace Manda and blitz Oro whole injured 

Reacting to Sasukes blitz holds what merit ? Hebi Sasuke isn't a speedster or anything.

Deidara used a distraction and clone suicide clone exploded. That doesn't help your case.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @grim
> 
> What makes you think Tsunade is slower then Deidara , despite the fact that she can blitz Oro while rusty and injured, is a shitload faster then Manda, and can coordinate attacks with the Gokage?
> 
> ...



Tsunade never blitzed Oro. 
She isn't faster than manda. Also I am not sure how fast manda is tbh.

Also databook statistics put Tsunade a whole tier under Sasuke & Deidara with a 3.5. Thats a difference you can't overlook.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A couple of points.
> 
> You just can't ignore the fact that Tsunade is a tad bit slower than Deidara & Sasuke. Deidara's initial reaction to Sasuke's shunshin was to just hop away. Thats what he'll do when Tsunade runs up to him. He won't stay and try to duke it out, so Taijutsu won't become a factor here.



I'm not ignoring that he's a tad bit faster, I just don't think it will make a significant difference. Tsunade can shunshin at him just like Sasuke did, except unlike with Sasuke Deidara won't have a tree to hop onto (since he's fighting on an open grassy field). He'll try to dodge her blow with an evasive manoeuvre, then get caught up in her smashy smashy tactics, and be _forced_ into a taijutsu exchange. At that point it's pretty much game over for him.



> You are also forgetting that Deidara without arms was able to fend off Team Gai and pull a bunshin feint during the commotion. He also pulled a bunshin feint on Sasuke and Jin Naruto during similar instances as well.



Having no arms evidently had no impact on his speed at all whatsoever, so I see no reason to bring it up into the debate. I should add, Deidara was up against all four members of Team Gai, as well as Chiyo and Sakura who Deidara knew had defeated Sasori, on top of Naruto and Kakashi, who he'd been fighting with extensively prior. _Of course_ he was going to try and prep an explosive bunshin, he felt pressured. However, against Tsunade, who is just one woman, and who he has very little prior knowledge on, he has no reason to try and do such a thing. He will initially underestimate her and then suffer the consequences as a result.

Although, he created that bunshin after the commotion, not during. It wasn't a measure of his speed. Also, Deidara let his guard down for a split second against a KN0 Naruto and was _blitzed_. He isn't really _that_ fast.



> Tsunade has no realistic shot @ catching Deidara on the ground and beating him up when faster people failed to do so. And once Deidara hops on a bird, it is pretty much over for Tsunade.



Faster people did catch him, though. Sasuke _did_ catch him, and even slower foes like KN0 Naruto and Sai caught him too. Deidara was incapable of engaging Team Gai in a prolonged CQC match, because from his brief skirmish with them he immediately concluded that he had to get away, and used an explosive bunshin in order to do so.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tsunade never blitzed Oro.



.



> She isn't faster than manda. Also I am not sure how fast manda is tbh.



One thing is for sure, and its that she traversed a large distance and swung Gamabunta's tanto through Manda's jaw before he could _snap it shut_. That's a very fast manoeuvre as far as I'm concerned.​​


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Apr 18, 2014)

deidaras altitude is capped, but his flight range isn't.
So he still wins handily, as he doesn't prefer CQC anyway.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 18, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> And at the same time he has never shown to be on par with or above her. She still has a whole lot more hype than he does.



Having hype doesn't necessary means she is above himself, unless said hype is made comparing both. Deidara has superior speed, superior reflexes and jutsus that bypasses her regen, jutsus that can take down opponents stronger than her because they are not noted by normal means.



> Gaara in the desert isn't far off from the Fourth Kazekage, he might've even been weaker way back then. Orochimaru rolled right over the Fourth Kazekage and went on to grow bored playing around with a stronger Kage in Hiruzen, while Tsunade is canonically every bit as strong as he and Jiraiya are. There is no contradiction, so she is still above him.



We don't know how the Fourth was killed, nor we know if Kimimaro helped, or we don't know if he could use Goldust in huge amount like he could in the desert. Without those things clear, i wouldn't put him in the level of Kazekage Gaara in the desert.

Tsunade is not as strong as Jiraiya or Orochimaru just because she has the same title. Asuma is leagues below Gai and Kakashi, and he has the same rank. Gaara in the desert would confortably defeat Tsunade as well, therefore i don't see her above him by this logic.



> When Deidara gave Sasuke difficulty Karin expressed surprise because Sasuke had also defeated Orochimaru previously, to which Sasuke clarified that Orochimaru was weakened, not that Deidara was simply that strong, so there isn't a contradiction there either.



Sasuke was Deidara's bad matchup, worse than Itachi was, even. Take away Sasuke's Raiton, or Sharingan, and he would've been killed. Sasuke defeated Deidara just because he was his counter, not because he was at his level. 



> Deidara's default height is only slightly higher than five meters high; the Slugging Princess drops Katsuyu on top of Deidara's head before he ever gets a grasp of her reach and flies off if they fight in the manga.



Nice to meet you, Kishimoto. Will Gai fight again?

Being serious, by that logic, Part 1 Naruto can summon Gamabunta on top of Part 2 Kisame and leave. I don't buy it.



> Because if she could just convince Orochimaru to back off without having to release it she could re-focus that Chakra elsewhere, like sustaining the summoning and re-attaching Tsunade.



Orochimaru, the one that threatened a village, would not be convinced by Katsuyu. Orochimaru had a grudge against Tsunade the last time they met. There's no way Katsuyu could've known Oro's methods to try and do that.



> I'm pretty sure that's just Shukaku's influence as opposed to different hands, because it looks eerily similar to the shapes seen during the Chūnin Exam arc when Gaara began to draw on Shukaku's power and they're never seen again post-extraction. Gaara was just making arm shapes and having them chase Deidara, they didn't actually change outside of when Gaara tried forming a sphere around Deidara (which he couldn't evade).



It seems there's not much in this Gaara could only trap Deidara when he was distracted for a second. Aside from that, he couldn't.



> The sand prison caught him, which is why he had to force his way out of it with a bomb, but yes the gourd sand caught him as well.



Because he was distracted.



> Umm?it _is_ there seconds later, what do you think that bottom panel is? It's also seen again in the panel following Deidara's detonation of the clay within the sphere, as the dust that would have been produced by the miniature explosives within would have been dragged down beneath the falling sand and thus wouldn't be visible to us anyway.



Ahm, i see nothing in the bottom panel, aside from Gaara's sand sphere that is. In the following panel, the dust there is because of the explosion inside, not the other.



> _C3_ was on top of the sand while we were viewing it from beneath the shield's expanse, that's why we don't see anything from it.



The sand is in an angle where we could've seen the huge ass smoke if it were still there.



> It's amazing how subjective time interpretation is, because I figured that was a lot longer than two seconds.



They are ninjas, they do wait too much to do their stuff. Gaara had to catch Deidara quick enough, Gaara acts right away, he doesn't wait. If that doesn't convice you _yet_, even thought you see smoke in a panel where i see nothing... Gaara formed a sand mom shield to save the fodders from Joki boy's huge ass explosion. 

That's still circular reasoning.



> The method in which it caught him would have made its speed unimportant until its shadow was already overhead (which would only happen after it had already partially encapsulated Deidara), unless the sand is particularly loud, which I don't believe it is. It doesn't say anything about the speed of the sand, nor does it say anything about the speed of Deidara's bird. Deidara only evaded hands, and while Gaara directing it- making it easier to anticipate than the sphere formed when Gaara himself was shielded and his directions out of Deidara's sight.



It's because we are believing here that both of them gave the other time to do something. I see no reason to believe that the sand formed slow and took it's time, because i see no reason for Deidara to be distracted _that_ much time. I see no reason either for the sand particles of the explosion to be in the air still, and i see no reason to give 35 minutes of time between Deidara's distracted panel without a shadow behind, and his panel with the sand behind him.

He is arrogant and distracted, but nor him or Gaara stays much time doing nothing, so i see no reason to believe that the sand took a lot of time to do something.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 18, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm not ignoring that he's a tad bit faster, I just don't think it will make a significant difference. Tsunade can shunshin at him just like Sasuke did, except unlike with Sasuke Deidara won't have a tree to hop onto (since he's fighting on an open grassy field). He'll try to dodge her blow with an evasive manoeuvre, then get caught up in her smashy smashy tactics, and be _forced_ into a taijutsu exchange. At that point it's pretty much game over for him.​




Or just drop some bombs as he jumps back or pulls that centipede shit he pulled on Itachi.

Deidara's C1 arsenal is pretty versatile and fast. It gives him enough openings to create a bird summon and hop on it.

Tsunade hasn't shown any kind of speed that'd allow her to pressure Deidara, even on the ground.



> Having no arms evidently had no impact on his speed at all whatsoever, so I see no reason to bring it up into the debate. I should add, Deidara was up against all four members of Team Gai, as well as Chiyo and Sakura who Deidara knew had defeated Sasori, on top of Naruto and Kakashi, who he'd been fighting with extensively prior. _Of course_ he was going to try and prep an explosive bunshin, he felt pressured. However, against Tsunade, who is just one woman, and who he has very little prior knowledge on, he has no reason to try and do such a thing. He will initially underestimate her and then suffer the consequences as a result.


Deidara's clay bunshin is something  that he seems to implements in his fighting style. He used it against Sasuke as well. 

What I am saying is, if it comes down to Tsunade pressuring deidara too much, he can always slip away with a clay bunshin distraction. Although I highly doubt it'll ever come to that.



> Although, he created that bunshin after the commotion, not during. It wasn't a measure of his speed. Also, Deidara let his guard down for a split second against a KN0 Naruto and was _blitzed_. He isn't really _that_ fast.



I think you've got your definitions mixed up. Getting blitzed and getting ambushed are two different things. Deidara was caught off guard and ambushed there. 



> Faster people did catch him, though. Sasuke _did_ catch him, and even slower foes like KN0 Naruto and Sai caught him too. Deidara was incapable of engaging Team Gai in a prolonged CQC match, because from his brief skirmish with them he immediately concluded that he had to get away, and used an explosive bunshin in order to do so.


Maybe because he was missing 2 of his arms and was out of clay hmm ? 



> .


Again, she didn't. Orochimaru didn't expect her to even lift a finger @ that point. He was caught off guard and he was @ point blank range anyway, with no option of blocking. 




> One thing is for sure, and its that she traversed a large distance and swung Gamabunta's tanto through Manda's jaw before he could _snap it shut_. That's a very fast manoeuvre as far as I'm concerned.


​
Actually thats not true. First off, we have no idea when she made the leap, it could be even before Manda jumped on Bunta. Also as you can see on the bottom panel, she is already on top of Manda and going down on a free fall. Either Manda's mouth closes really slow, or like most other interception feats it should be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We are shown all important bits on panel, so the significant part was the establishment of Deidara as a shinobi capable of killing Orochimaru.


The Akatsuki members thoughts on Deidara vs Orochimaru is something that was never on panel. There is not a single moment on panel where any Akatsuki member states Deidara has the potential to kill Orochimaru. So you can't base your speculation on off panel, and than demand that others strictly discuss whats on-panel. Ether we are discussing the Akatsuki members off panel thoughts on Deidara vs Orochimaru; or not.



> Could be. But they also may have thought that Deidara was capable of killing him in a straigth battle.


That's my whole point. We don't know, so to use the unknown Akatsuki members thought process is not a very compelling point to make.



> Although Deidara's statement didn't seem to encompass a certain time frame, so I highly doubt that.


It doesn't matter what Deidara thinks; were talking about the other Akatsuki members. They could have been aware that Orochimaru would be weakened at the time Deidara started talking about killing him, so they believed because of that Deidara stood a chance. 

Beyond that time-frame only matters to the weakening Orochimaru suffers from body-rejection. Orochimaru is weakened at all times since Hiruzen sealed his arms.



> Deidara said "I" and was pissed that someone else did it, so no.


Deidara said he wanted to kill Sasuke too. That didn't stop him from having Tobi tag along and aid him in the fight.



> Or they didn't know how powerful Kakashi or Naruto were or that Sasori'd lose to Chiyo & Sakura.


Than we must question how good of a judge Akatsuki Members are of strength.



> I am not arguing whether Akatsuki believed Deidara was certainly stronger than Orochimaru or he would kill him for certain. I am arguing that Akatsuki was contend that Deidara was capable of killing Orochimaru given they are familiar with both and their abilities.


The last time they could have possibly seen Orochimaru in action was 7 Years ago. Sasori had a spy specifically because he needed more intel on Orochimaru's techniques and he was Orochimaru's partner. So I would not be comfortable with any analysis they'd come to based on the intel they had alone.



> Portrayal.
> Akatsuki as an organization represented a certain level of shinobi.


The strength levels of Akatsuki go from Nagato to Hidan "level". I see nothing supporting that being an Akatsuki member means your equivalent to Orochimaru.



> But Sasuke didn't beat Orochimaru, he ambushed a sickened Orochimaru. So beating Orochimaru didn't mean shit like Karin was trying to insinuate.


That's the whole point. Karin clearly believes Orochimaru > Deidara, and that is why she questions why Sasuke would get beaten up so bad against Deidara. To which Sasuke does not answer that Deidara is stronger or even as strong as Orochimaru, but simply that Orochimaru was weakened. The context makes it clear that both Karin and Sasuke considered Orochimaru stronger than Deidara, and had Sasuke actually defeated 100% Orochimaru, he would not have had such a problem with Deidara.



> If a character is mainly a long range fighter their taijutsu stat isn't that significant.
> If Nagato had tier 1 taijutsu on paper, that wouldn't change a thing in regards to his fighting potential, considering he never uses taijutsu anyways. It would be insigifnicant if he was weak @ taijutsu or not.


There is a difference between saying some stats are less significant than others and saying that some stats hold zero significance. The latter was what your suggesting before and what I took issue with.

As for the rest of this we are not talking about someone who has a 1 in Taijutsu and is a long-range fighter. So that example is not very applicable at all to Orochimaru vs Deidara.

The stats where Orochimaru excels Deidara are Hand-Seals, Intelligence, and Genjutsu; and it's very strange to me that someone who wanks the living hell out Itachi is now calling these specific abilities not very significant to battle.



> he only stats that directly effect Oro and Deidara's combat potential are even.


And if we want to get nitpicky with the stats I find it funny that you list Deidara's Taijutsu stat as one relevant to battle, yet he is a long-range fighter. I mean it's literally the above example you gave me for when a stat is not very significant.



> We actually haven't seen Orochimaru cast genjutsu but as far we know the most common type is visual genjutsu.


This is based on what? The fact that most Genjutsu users the manga focuses on are Uchiha? That doesn't mean on average that is the type of choice, as the Uchiha are anything but representative of the norm within the Naruto world. Additionaly it would be hardly strange that someone like Orochimaru and someone who has a 5 in Genjutsu would have multiple methods of initiating  illusions, beyond just sight.



> Also we weren't exactly told about the mechanics but Deidara's eye seemed to work automatically and allowed him to see through genjutsu.


Sasuke still got him with a Genjutsu in the end though.



> Orochimaru's strongest summon is manda, the same manda who got killed by coming in brief contact with c0.
> Deidara's c3 was strong enough to flip over an island sized summon, I am pretty sure you wouldn't find a trace of manda if he were to be hit by that.


Orochimaru's strongest summons are Edos. Also manda was key in Sasuke's victory over Deidara.



> summons are a part of his ninjutsu arsenal so thats what the 5 stands for.


Kuchiyose is part of his Ninjutsu. The summons own abilities are not.



> Actually Orochimaru's biggest accomplishments are his genetical experiments. Thats why I mentioned science.


That doesn't say much considering his accomplishments in experiments are ridiculously good.



> Deidara defeated a stronger version, aka Jinchuuriki Gaara.


- Start of Part II Gaara being stronger is based on nothing
- Deidara needed an underhanded trick to win



> Hiruzen actually was forced to kill himself because he was a pathetic old man who had no option but to use Shiki Fuuin to get rid of 2 weak edos.


So your straight up ignoring the manga cannon.



> Aside from the fact that he had to retreat from the fight earlier than he planned he had no handicaps. And he was getting his shit torn apart anyways.


Having his shit torn apart is meaningless to a guy like Orochimaru. He had to retreat earlier due to body failure. So he had the handicaps of having his arms sealed and body failure yet still was fight KN4.



> He also casually walked into sand village and capture their Kazekage and almost killed Team Gai & Team Kakashi with no arms had it not been for Kakashi's best Kamui feat up to date.


By casually walked into suna you mean that Sasori overcame their defense for him with an inside man?
By nearly kill Team Gai and Team Kakashi you mean he was left armless and had to flee?



> Sure she did, beause Orochimaru has probably a higher reputation than anyone else bar maybe Madara.


This is based on what?



> No. The only canon is that Orochimaru had more reputation than Deidara, but Deidara was portrayed to be on Orochimaru's level and was implied to have the capability of defeating Orochimaru.


Orochimaru was portrayed to be on Deidara's level by your speculation off the off panel thought process of Akatsuki members. Literally that is thee only thing you've brought to the table here.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tsunade never blitzed Oro.
> She isn't faster than manda. Also I am not sure how fast manda is tbh.
> 
> Also databook statistics put Tsunade a whole tier under Sasuke & Deidara with a 3.5. Thats a difference you can't overlook.



She blitzed Oro from the ground while her mid section was in pieces and in part 1: _snap it shut_

She also could move in-between Oro strikes despite the fact that she was in a floored position ,was injured , and moved after Oro did like here: _snap it shut_
_snap it shut_

She clearly outpaced Manda with a sword  thousands of times heavier then herself, while rusty, traveled double the distance of Manda, and still had time to leap Completely over a boss summon.

The scan where Jirayia fires his battlefield Katon, you can clearly see Tsunade in front of Katusyu , and the sword several meters away out of the panel for that fact; _snap it shut_

2 panels later Tsunade is above Manda and Bunta( 100m) with a building sized tanto and convered more distance then Manda; _snap it shut_

Manda is pretty fast and she is a great deal faster then him. What makes the feat even greater are the Restrictions placed upon her and her still outpacing him.

The DB doesn't cover up to the Madara vs Gokage battle so it is irrelevant. It also doesn't include shunshin which Tsunade with a perfect Ninjustu DB stat should be a master at.  

Taijustu is also the reason Tsunade is able to Completley outclass people in CQC. She sports a perfect stat and has a shit ton of hype regarding it. It's the reason she was able to blitz Oro despite being "one point " lower in the DB, and being injured.

Also DB stats are unreliable.
? Kakuzu with a 4 distracted and blind side attacked  2.5 Shikamaru, and Shikamaru dodged.
? Kisame with a 4 reacting and getting the upper hand on V1 Bee.
? Tsunade with a "3.5" blogging Shizune and Oro.
? Hidan with 3.5 reacting perfectly fine to 4.5+ Sharingan Kakashi 
? Hebi Sasuke with the same speed stat as Deidara not blitzing albeit the fact jay Deidara was distracted and has a poor Taijustu stat.
? Yamato and Kisame holding the same speed stat.

Lol point is , DB scores are shit. Don't bring them in a debate.


----------



## Magician (Apr 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Also DB stats are unreliable.
> • Kakuzu with a 4 distracted and blind side attacked  2.5 Shikamaru, and Shikamaru dodged.
> • Kisame with a 4 reacting and getting the upper hand on V1 Bee.
> • Tsunade with a "3.5" blogging Shizune and Oro.
> ...



+reps.

Don't know why people care about DB scores so much. I highly doubt Kishi calculated down to the decimal how each shinobi's stats are, instead they're most likely there just for the fans to fap over.**


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Or just drop some bombs as he jumps back or pulls that centipede shit he pulled on Itachi.



Both of which would be extremely ineffective against an evasive expert. Itachi obviously allowed the centipede to bind him in order to trick Deidara with a genjutsu feint. 



> Deidara's C1 arsenal is pretty versatile and fast. It gives him enough openings to create a bird summon and hop on it.



I've already shown you that under the right circumstances Deidara is not going to fly away on his bird unless he actually feels threatened by Tsunade's CQC prowess, and you deny that he will be pressured at all.



> Tsunade hasn't shown any kind of speed that'd allow her to pressure Deidara, even on the ground.



Yes she has - read any of the examples I just provided you with. Her heel drops and punches that explode the earth he stands on will definitely pressure him too. 



> Deidara's clay bunshin is something  that he seems to implements in his fighting style. He used it against Sasuke as well.



He used it against Sasuke after sustaining multiple hits iirc, and having been forced into using C2. He only uses it when he actually feels threatened.



> What I am saying is, if it comes down to Tsunade pressuring deidara too much, he can always slip away with a clay bunshin distraction. Although I highly doubt it'll ever come to that.



Me neither, because by the time he starts to feel pressured, he'll be dead.



> I think you've got your definitions mixed up. Getting blitzed and getting ambushed are two different things. Deidara was caught off guard and ambushed there.



No, I have my definitions spot on. Deidara was caught off guard, sure, but he did turn around at the last second to see Naruto behind him. He just failed to react to his strike at close range. There are plenty of examples where shinobi have been ' ambushed ' from behind and then turned around to block/parry/evade the attack on time. Deidara simply didn't have the skill to do so.



> Maybe because he was missing 2 of his arms and was out of clay hmm ?



Deidara has a 3.5 in taijutsu - Gai and Lee both have 5s, and Neji has a 4.5. What use would two of his arms be to him in a game of taijutsu against _three_ opponents who are even more skilled in taijutsu than Sasuke was? Not to mention Tenten has a 3.5 in the stat, and Naruto, Sakura and Kakashi were all still capable of fighting too. Furthermore, grabbing clay, moulding it and then exploding it in the middle of a taijutsu exchange isn't really possible. The only time Deidara has done that is when he pre-moulded and threw the clay beforehand. 



> Again, she didn't. Orochimaru didn't expect her to even lift a finger @ that point. He was caught off guard and he was @ point blank range anyway, with no option of blocking.



She did blitz, and your points don't suggest otherwise. In fact, everything you have said here is just a number of excuses for _why_ he was blitzed. No, Orochimaru didn't expect her to lift a finger, but she did, and he got blitzed as a result. Orochimaru has been surprise attacked before and been able to dodge/react, and in just as bad, if not worse physical conditions no less [1] [2], but in this instance his opponent was simply too quick. And yes it was at point blank range, but _news flash_, taijutsu matches _happen_ at point blank range. Orochimaru may not have been able to block, but he could have shunshin'd, or jumped away, or tried to pierce her with his sword, but he simply didn't have the time to do so.



> Actually thats not true. First off, we have no idea when she made the leap, it could be even before Manda jumped on Bunta. Also as you can see on the bottom panel, she is already on top of Manda and going down on a free fall. Either Manda's mouth closes really slow, or like most other interception feats it should be taken with a grain of salt.



Interception feats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but only because often it involves slower opponents intercepting foes who are faster than them. In this case we have no reason to believe that Manda is faster than Tsunade, we know that he is fast, but to what extent is unknown. As such, it is a completely plausible feat. Also, it is blatantly obvious that Tsunade did not jump at Manda before he attacked Bunta, because:

a) we can actually see Tsunade on _Katsuyu's head_ the page before

and

b) Why would she have jumped at Manda whenever she couldn't even see him? He was underground. She obviously only jumped once he unearthed himself. I do believe she jumped onto Bunta's tanto and grabbed it beforehand, and there is a possibility that she jumped with the sword in Manda's general direction, but she didn't actually get above Manda and swing that sword into his jaw until he actually attacked Bunta.​​


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 19, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Having hype doesn't necessary means she is above himself, unless said hype is made comparing both.



When she has more than he does yeah it does as long as there is no contradiction.

The Sannin are at the level of praise where if you haven't shown to contend with one of them you aren't assumed to be able to. A direct comparison  between the two is not needed, Deidara doesn't simply default to Tsunade's level as you're implying he does with your "hasn't shown to be below her" comment. That isn't how it works. She would be his provisional superior; he's going to be below her until he proves to be on par with her, which he hasn't done.



> We don't know how the Fourth was killed, nor we know if Kimimaro helped, or we don't know if he could use Goldust in huge amount like he could in the desert.



_*1.)*_ If you're implying that Orochimaru might've killed the Kazekage in his sleep or something that's exceedingly unlikely. Kabuto congratulates Orochimaru on having impressively taken down two of the Five Kages, thus the approach with which he would have taken on the Kazekage should be consistent with how he took on the Hokage- which is direct confrontation.

_*2.)*_ Kimimaro was too weak for his presence to have honestly been impactful against any Kage and we know from Orochimaru's comments to Hiruzen that he doesn't like weaker people interfering with his bouts because they just get in the way. If we assume Kimimaro wasn't already lying in bed sick (considering that the ninja who found the bodies said that they were killed just before the start of the operation, meaning not even two weeks before we saw Kimi lying there already on his way to dying) the most he could have done was take out those two fodders with the Kazekage fairly similar to how Kabuto was assigned Naruto and Shizune whilst Orochimaru himself went after Jiraiya alone.

_*3.)*_ The Fourth Kazekage's body was found _in the desert_, which his village itself is located in, and there is no reason whatsoever that he couldn't have used huge amounts of gold dust even if he wasn't in the desert (though he clearly was) because unlike Gaara _he isn't reliant upon the sand_.

You shouldn't need to know anything else.



> Tsunade is not as strong as Jiraiya or Orochimaru just because she has the same title.



Nice attempt to counter what _wasn't_ my reasoning in the first place.

She is as strong as Jiraiya and Orochimaru because Kishimoto himself has explicitly stated that she is.



> Sasuke was Deidara's bad matchup, worse than Itachi was, even. Take away Sasuke's Raiton, or Sharingan, and he would've been killed. Sasuke defeated Deidara just because he was his counter, not because he was at his level.



Sasuke's mastery of the Sharingan and powerful affinity for Raiton are of his own merit; it isn't like Part 1 Kakashi would also beat Deidara if we put him in the same situation despite him having both of the aforementioned tools. Most importantly, though, if you take away what makes Sasuke "Sasuke" (and weaken him massively in the process considering those are his primary abilities that he uses in each and every one of his battles) your argument was pretty weak from the outset.

The comments following the fight wouldn't have even been made if Orochimaru weren't intended to be beyond Deidara's level. If it were instead simply an issue of Deidara's overall power rivaling his own then that's what Sasuke would have said as opposed to explaining that Orochimaru was weakened instead.

The writing is all over the wall.



> Nice to meet you, Kishimoto. Will Gai fight again?



Nope. 



> Being serious, by that logic, Part 1 Naruto can summon Gamabunta on top of Part 2 Kisame and leave.



Being serious, no he cannot.

For one, there is no apparent difference between Part 1 and Part 2 Kisame; secondly, Part 1 Naruto couldn't summon Gamabunta at will due to a Chakra control deficiency; and thirdly, Gamabunta only ever emerged after Naruto had already ruled out his other options anyway, it'd be far too late by the time he thought to even try it.

Not that it matters to begin with, because Kisame would just tank it, unlike Deidara who happens to be the most fragile/least defensive member of Akatsuki we know of.



> Orochimaru, the one that threatened a village, would not be convinced by Katsuyu. Orochimaru had a grudge against Tsunade the last time they met. There's no way Katsuyu could've known Oro's methods to try and do that.



Orochimaru was only ever established to hold a grudge against the Third Hokage, not the Fifth. All that was established during and following the Sannin Showdown was that Tsunade didn't like him, and she never liked him in the first place.

Orochimaru threatened a village because nothing within said village was a true threat to him (to his knowledge), but Katsuyu and Orochimaru had known each other for years prior to Tsunade's self-imposed exile and as a result he'd be aware of what her acid would do were it to land on him; he values his ambitions of acquiring all of the Jutsu in the ninja world far too much to risk his life for Tsunade or _anyone else's_ own. This is something Katsuyu should be aware of; what she _wasn't_ aware of was that Orochimaru was working with the ninja alliance and had a legitimate incentive to tend to Tsunade.

So yes, Katsuyu _would_ try and do that.



> It seems there's not much in this Gaara could only trap Deidara when he was distracted for a second. Aside from that, he couldn't.



Deidara had his eyes on Gaara's position the whole time, the remaining sand simply snuck around him unnoticed; that's a feat of stealth on the part of the sand, not a result of Deidara being inattentive. Those are two fundamentally different things.

The only thing stripped from Deidara at that point was being able to anticipate the sand based on Gaara's arm gestures, but Katsuyu's acid spray has no giveaways to begin with, so such is already virtually inconsequential for the purposes of the discussion.



> In the following panel, the dust there is because of the explosion inside, not the other.



The dust _cannot be_ from the explosion inside because the dust those explosives would have produced could have only been blanketed by the sand and fallen down along with it.

It _has_ to be from the previous bomb. If it was missing _only_ in the panel where the focus was the sphere's rumbling, when it would have been covered by the sfx text and emphasis lines anyway, it's an aesthetic choice that was corrected in the following depiction where said lines and text were absent.



> The sand is in an angle where we could've seen the huge ass smoke if it were still there.



No it isn't...



> They are ninjas, they do wait too much to do their stuff.



Meaning you can't determine how long that was. 



> Gaara formed a sand mom shield to save the fodders from Joki boy's huge ass explosion.



That Gaara also raised his sand fast enough to catch the Fourth Kazekage off guard despite his apparent familiarity with dealing with Shukaku's sands. Given that, and the fact that Gaara has had quite a bit of time to improve prior to the war, a Gaara relying on the Shukaku's power as he was when Deidara attacked a few months previously is not likely to be able to move it around as fast as that, so...yeah...this doesn't say anything about the fight with Deidara.

Because different Gaaras.



> It's because we are believing here that both of them gave the other time to do something. I see no reason to believe that the sand formed slow and took it's time, because i see no reason for Deidara to be distracted _that_ much time. I see no reason either for the sand particles of the explosion to be in the air still, and i see no reason to give 35 minutes of time between Deidara's distracted panel without a shadow behind, and his panel with the sand behind him.





I am not nor have I ever been saying that the sand formed _slowly_, I'm merely pointing out that you have no actual basis for it truly being _faster_ than Katsuyu's acid, as well as the fact that you're resorting to especially arbitrary circular reasoning and just trying to re-word it so that it doesn't look like you are (which is failing btw).


----------



## Rocky (Apr 19, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The Sannin are at the level of praise where if you haven't *shown* to contend with one of them you aren't assumed to be able to.



Deidara is an incredibly powerful ninja with some of the more powerful techniques we've seen to date (outside of the top-tier). I'm not sure what you mean by "shown to contend," because by feats, Deidara has the Jutsu capability to not only contend, but _win._


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "shown to contend," because by feats, Deidara has the Jutsu capability to not only contend, but _win._



Could have worded that differently, I guess.

Maybe I should have said "painted as being able to" instead of "shown", because I was talking about praise/presence within the manga reflecting on levels, not feats (at that particular moment).


----------



## Mithos (Apr 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Deidara is an incredibly powerful ninja with some of the more powerful techniques we've seen to date (outside of the top-tier). I'm not sure what you mean by "shown to contend," because by feats, Deidara has the Jutsu capability to not only contend, but _win._



Deidara has also been shown to be unable to react in time to defend against KN0's attack, unable to react in time to defend against Sai's blitz, and he was also hit fairly early on in his fight with Hebi Sasuke despite having Tobi's help. 

Deidara also had his arm caught and crushed by Beginning of Part II Gaara's sand. 

Every single ninja he's fought on panel has been able to hit him - and none of them have the hype or portrayal of the Sannin. KN0 and Sai are clearly far below the Sannin; Beginning of Part II Gaara is much weaker than Current Gaara who had a less impressive showng against Madara than Tsunade; and Hebi Sasuke said he only beat Orochimaru because he was weakened.  

Deidara has not shown that he can "contend" with the level of the Sannin.

His treatment as an Edo by the Alliance also portrays him as below the Gokage, who didn't feel the need to get involved personally until Madara.

By portrayal, Deidara doesn't stack up to Tsunade or the other Sannin.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 19, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> Deidara has also been shown to be unable to react in time to defend against KN0's attack, unable to react in time to defend against Sai's blitz, and he was also hit fairly early on in his fight with Hebi Sasuke despite having Tobi's help.



Those guys are pretty quick Shinobi. I mean, there's a chance she breaks him in two before he flies away, but that's all it is. 



> Every single ninja he's fought on panel has been able to hit him - and none of them have the hype or portrayal of the Sannin. KN0 and Sai are clearly far below the Sannin; Beginning of Part II Gaara is much weaker than Current Gaara who had a less impressive showng against Madara than Tsunade; and Hebi Sasuke said he only beat Orochimaru because he was weakened.



Deiadara defeated Gaara (and nearly nuked his entire village), feinted Naruto, and...yes, was unfortunately blitzed by Sai (who isn't exactly slow, btw). Sai can fly though, and Sai only punched him, he didn't beat Deiadara by himself.

What does this have to do with Tsunade? Village busting isn't enough to contend with her? Cellular disintegration? Kage level physical stats? Good intelligence?



> His treatment as an Edo by the Alliance also portrays him as below the Gokage, who didn't feel the need to get involved personally until Madara.



The ones not involved until Madara were Tsunade & Ei.


----------



## Mithos (Apr 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Those guys are pretty quick Shinobi. I mean, there's a chance she breaks him in two before he flies away, but that's all it is.



They're not quicker than Tsunade though. And KN0 and Sai both hit Deidara while he was on his bird. No reason Tsunade cannot do the same. 



> Deiadara defeated Gaara (and nearly nuked his entire village), feinted Naruto, and...yes, was unfortunately blitzed by Sai (who isn't exactly slow, btw). Sai can fly though, and Sai only punched him, he didn't beat Deiadara by himself.



Deidara defeated Gaara by forcing him to choose between defending himself or his village. Sai punched him, sure. But if Sai can out-speed Deidara and punch him, why can't Tsunade, who is faster? And her punch would kill him. 



> What does this have to do with Tsunade?



It's about Deidara's portrayal relative to Tsunade's. 

The ones not involved until Madara were Tsunade & Ei.[/QUOTE]

Okay I'll conceed here, partly. Though Oonoki and Gaara both got involved to counter the Edo Kages, who were a bigger threat than Deidara or the other Edo Akatsuki members. And Mei was only involved because she was stationed to protect the Feudal lords and they were under attack. Deidara didn't warrant the attention of the Gokage. And for good reason - the ambush squad handled  him just fine.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 19, 2014)

_*1.)*_ Sasuke pre-absorption could blitz attentive Sai.
_*2.)*_ Sasuke post-absorption couldn't _Shunshin_-blitz distracted grounded Deidara from shorter distances.
_*3.)*_ Sai blitzes _airborne_ Sasori _and_ Deidara _after taking the time to go drawing multiple creatures in his scroll_.



Obvious inconsistency is obvious. I truly attempt to make logical sense out of anything I can before pulling the plot card, because literally everything is motivated by plot in some way, but there is just no logic behind this event whatsoever. I really think Kishi just Kishi'd there.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 19, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Both of which would be extremely ineffective against an evasive expert. Itachi obviously allowed the centipede to bind him in order to trick Deidara with a genjutsu feint. ​




What are Tsunade's evasion feats ?



> I've already shown you that under the right circumstances Deidara is not going to fly away on his bird unless he actually feels threatened by Tsunade's CQC prowess, and you deny that he will be pressured at all.



When did Deidara fight anyone on the ground ? 
I didn't say Tsunade can't pressure Deidara, I said she can't do it alone with speed, meaning Deidara can always put a distance between her and himself.



> Yes she has - read any of the examples I just provided you with. Her heel drops and punches that explode the earth he stands on will definitely pressure him too.


Those feats aren't even proper speed feats. Even if they were, they aren't even good. 

I am not suggesting that Deidara can fight her in CQC. The moment he witnesses her strength(which also happens to be her weakness) Deidara will see the opportuntiy and go airborne and finish her off from there.



> He used it against Sasuke after sustaining multiple hits iirc, and having been forced into using C2. He only uses it when he actually feels threatened.


Umm in other words he used it when he felt it was necessary ? 



> Me neither, because by the time he starts to feel pressured, he'll be dead.


Or just hop on his bird and nuke the hell out of Tsunade. 




> No, I have my definitions spot on. Deidara was caught off guard, sure, but he did turn around at the last second to see Naruto behind him. He just failed to react to his strike at close range. There are plenty of examples where shinobi have been ' ambushed ' from behind and then turned around to block/parry/evade the attack on time. Deidara simply didn't have the skill to do so.



No you don't. Getting caught off guard from behind isn't considered a blitz. Deidara turned to see Naruto already in mid attack. He didn't have arms so he couldn't block or parry. And if Deidara dodged it, it'd suggest a massive speed difference, in Deidara's favor. 




> Deidara has a 3.5 in taijutsu - Gai and Lee both have 5s, and Neji has a 4.5. What use would two of his arms be to him in a game of taijutsu against _three_ opponents who are even more skilled in taijutsu than Sasuke was?


Um arms would allow him to use his clay attacks ? 



> Not to mention Tenten has a 3.5 in the stat, and Naruto, Sakura and Kakashi were all still capable of fighting too. Furthermore, grabbing clay, moulding it and then exploding it in the middle of a taijutsu exchange isn't really possible. The only time Deidara has done that is when he pre-moulded and threw the clay beforehand.


Deidara will never engage Tsunade in taijutsu(he never engaged anyone in taijutsu) so its irrelevant what you believe is possible or not.




> She did blitz, and your points don't suggest otherwise. In fact, everything you have said here is just a number of excuses for _why_ he was blitzed. No, Orochimaru didn't expect her to lift a finger, but she did, and he got blitzed as a result. Orochimaru has been surprise attacked before and been able to dodge/react, and in just as bad, if not worse physical conditions no less [1] [2], but in this instance his opponent was simply too quick. And yes it was at point blank range, but _news flash_, taijutsu matches _happen_ at point blank range. Orochimaru may not have been able to block, but he could have shunshin'd, or jumped away, or tried to pierce her with his sword, but he simply didn't have the time to do so.


Ok I am fairly certain that you don't know what blitz means. 

This is a blitz : [2]

[2]

[2]

If Tsunade was fast enough to blitz Orochimaru, then the fight would end here : 
Link removed





> Interception feats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but only because often it involves slower opponents intercepting foes who are faster than them. In this case we have no reason to believe that Manda is faster than Tsunade, we know that he is fast, but to what extent is unknown. As such, it is a completely plausible feat. Also, it is blatantly obvious that Tsunade did not jump at Manda before he attacked Bunta, because:


If we don't know how fast Manda is, then how is this a credible speed feat ? Also there are no set rules on interception feats like the one you mentioned.
Interception feats are mainly *timing* feats, not speed feats, unless they are visually or verbally expressed so.
In Tsunade's case, it was more of a strength feat.



> [a) we can actually see Tsunade on _Katsuyu's head_ the page before
> 
> and
> 
> b) Why would she have jumped at Manda whenever she couldn't even see him? He was underground. She obviously only jumped once he unearthed himself. I do believe she jumped onto Bunta's tanto and grabbed it beforehand, and there is a possibility that she jumped with the sword in Manda's general direction, but she didn't actually get above Manda and swing that sword into his jaw until he actually attacked Bunta.


​
_Katsuyu's head_
Manda made his attack visible here. She could have jumped then. 

But like I said, this isn't a speed feat. We don't know how fast manda is, we don't know how fast you have to be to intercept him. This doesn't give us a clue about where Tsunade'd b placed in regards to other shinobi because we haven't seen anyone else fight Manda.

This is pretty vague and doesn't contribute to our argument. The only quantifiable bit in that feat is Tsunade's lifting strength.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 19, 2014)

@grim 

Are you kidding me ? . The feats you provided as a "blitz" are nearly identical to the way Tsunade blitzed Oro here: _Katsuyu's head_

The only difference is that Tsuande was in a floored position while injured .

Tsunade didn't end the battle there because she proceeded to heal herself, summon Katusyu, One panel Manda, and then finish Oro with one extra hit. You act as if Tsunade and Oro had some long ass battle where he could only blitz him one time then had trouble reacting to his speed.  No. Tsunade blitzed Oro, then basically blitzed Manda. She then was caught off guard by Oro, countered his attack then planted her fist in his left dimple. Don't act as if Tsunade was not in complete control after she overcame her phobia.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @grim
> 
> Are you kidding me ? . The feats you provided as a "blitz" are nearly identical to the way Tsunade blitzed Oro here: *Sasuke's version of tsukuyomi off like it was nothing.*
> 
> ...



If thats what you really think, then you are highly delusional.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If thats what you really think, then you are highly delusional.



Concession accepted? 

Lol I literally just broke down Tsunade vs Oro using the actual feats and that makes me delusional ? Lmao that cute. 

It's not my fault you chose to use two scans that are nearly identical to the feat Tsunade accomplished then label it as an actual "blitz ", and disregard Tsunades.  

Ill keep it in mind to disregard any logical post you decide to make, and simply say , "if that's what you really think, then you are highly delusional."


----------



## Rocky (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm really at a loss for words when people claim Deidara can't even compete with the Sannin. Like I said, spamable guided explosives, firepower to level a village, a cellular disintegration technique that's nearly undetectable, skill in flight & evasion, and great intelligence feats. He even has a 10km suicide nuke.

Please, somebody tell me what the Sannin have done that suggest they're _that_ far above Deidara. Far enough to the point where he can't even _contend._ Like, look at this. Look at it. That's a random C2 bomb, nowhere near Deidara's top Jutsu. That's casual Deidara.

The only Sannin I believe Deidara would have difficulty competing with is Sage Mode Jiraiya, but he would take the other two Sannin without much difficulty a well, courtesy of the Toad Sages.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 19, 2014)

Tsunade >>> rocks >>> Uchiha >>> Deidara.



Deidara is screwed over by makeshift _Yatai Kuzushi_.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 19, 2014)

I don't think Deidara can beat any Sannin member( bar Tsunade) without much difficulty. 

•He definitely losses to Jirayia 
•Looses more then not against Oro
• And ONLY wins against Tsunade based on his fighting style in contrast to hers. 

He also has far less hype then any Sannin member, and if Kishi animated a battle between Deidara and any Sannin member I guarantee they would win. Kishi holds them on a higher pedestal then he holds Deidara on.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> He also has far less hype then any Sannin member, and if Kishi animated a battle between Deidara and any Sannin member I guarantee they would win.



I don't know when it was "guaranteed" that the Sannin were so capable of handling what Deidara has displayed.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't know when it was "guaranteed" that the Sannin were so capable of handling what Deidara has displayed.



It's guaranteed through hype and indication, not feats.

Just like EMS Sasuke = BM Naruto by indication, but by feats Naruto destroys him.

Sannin> Anyone in the Akatsuki not named Itachi, Pain, or Obito by hype.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Concession accepted?
> 
> Lol I literally just broke down Tsunade vs Oro using the actual feats and that makes me delusional ? Lmao that cute.
> 
> ...



Anyone who thinks Tsunade is fast enough to blitz Orochimaru is a highly delusional individual. You can ask any BD veteran about this and they will agree with me.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> It's guaranteed through hype and indication, not feats.



They often go hand in hand unless a character hasn't gotten decent panel time yet (which is not the case _at all_ with The Sannin).

Regardless, I already admitted that Tsunade is more famed than Deidara. That doesn't mean she get's an auto-win against his incredible array of Jutsu.

Even when I'm talking about someone like Minato vs. Deidara, I don't say Minato wins just 'cause. His hype isn't _that _good man. 



> Just like EMS Sasuke = BM Naruto by indication, but by feats Naruto destroys him.



Indicated where?

Also, BM Naruto doesn't wreck Sauce by feats. Naruto would need his best Bijudama to win (or Biju Sage Mode).



> Sannin> Anyone in the Akatsuki not named Itachi, Pain, or Obito by hype.



....no. What, based on them being more....famous? I agree that they're incredibly powerful, like their hype would suggest...but so is Deidara. Just look at his Jutsu, they're incredible. Easily on par with anything the Sannin have shown outside of possibly Sage Mode Jiraiya.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Anyone who thinks Tsunade is fast enough to blitz Orochimaru is a highly delusional individual. You can ask any BD veteran about this and they will agree with me.



Yet I have a feat for it ? Literally a panel where Tsuande blitzes Oro. What the hell.

@rocky.

I already admitted by feats that Tsuande losses, I have no idea what you are even arguing anymore lol. Deidara can beat Tsuande by feats. She has more hype then him though. So it was seen pretty obvious bag Kishi would illustrate Tsunade beating Deidara. But that's just me though. 

You serious rocky lol? BM Naruto creates 15 KCM clones with flash shunshin that can evade V2 Ay, and FRS's Sasuke off the planet. Or he rapid fires TBB's at Sasukes forehead and vaporizes his PS. Cause by feats PS cannot take rapid fires BM TBB's. At the end of the day, Naruto has a million more ways to defeat Sasuke then Sasuke does to defeat him, DESPITE the fact that they are indicated as equals. I mean how the hell does Sasuke get through a BM cloak that tanks the Juubi laser?  I'll actually make a thread for this and see the results.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm talking about feats. No. Just indication and hype.  The Sannin are indicated as equals. Jirayia was said to be able to defeat Itachi and Kisame( or just Itachi) . That puts them above everyone on the Akatsuki bar Itachi, Nagato, and Obito just like I said.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 19, 2014)

Is this a discussion on whether or not the Sannin are so much stronger that it removes the importance of specific matchup or whether or not they're at all stronger than the non-Dōjutsu abusing members of Akatsuki period?

If it's the former: I don't think the Sannin are individually more powerful than Bee and despite Kisame admittedly being in a tier beneath the Sannin he still defeated the Jinchūriki through matchup.

If it's the latter: well...anyone who's been paying attention would see that Sannin > Akatsuki in the overall sense is a narrative given.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 20, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> If it's the latter: well...anyone who's been paying attention would see that Sannin > Akatsuki in the overall sense is a narrative given.


 
You could say that the title of "Sannin" holds more weight than the Akatsuki membership, which is canon I believe, but to determine if one of the Sannin would beat one of the members of the Akatsuki, there are many factors that need to be addressed.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 20, 2014)

Of course. Such would fall under my first point about matchup; I don't disagree with that.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You could say that the title of "Sannin" holds more weight than the Akatsuki membership, which is canon I believe, but to determine if one of the Sannin would beat one of the members of the Akatsuki, there are many factors that need to be addressed.



This is true. Reputation indicates the general level the Shinobi is in. However it doesn't help us on debates concerning who'd beat who. 

Most young shinobi don't have reputation on par with the old ones mostly because they haven't had enough time to pile up accomplishments. There are also shinobi who work under the shadows and couldn't publicly make a name for themselves. Like Itachi or Nagato.
Sure Itachi was the slayer of Uchiha, but for some reason even a guy like Asuma didn't realize how much of a threat he was based off reputation alone.
Nagato was living in a country which was cut out from the outside world and Jiraiya didn't have any idea how strong the dude was up until he learned from Rain Shinobi that he defeated Hanzo.

And as a side note, I think Portrayal trumps reputation. Reputation is mostly an in manga trait. But portrayal is for the viewers only.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What are Tsunade's evasion feats ?



Tsunade is an evasive expert. Tsunade invented the fucking medical rules, including the one that says a medical ninja should never be the first to perish in battle. She even teaches Sakura how to be evasive. Chiyo then states that a high level of evasive skills come with experience - she too is a medical ninja. Oh and, guess what Tsunade has, she has _decades_ of experience. 

I can give you Tsunade's evasive feats, but I don't even need to do so to prove that Tsunade can dodge clay bombs that move about as slowly, if not slower than shuriken/kunai.



> When did Deidara fight anyone on the ground ?



In the fight against Sasuke, you know, the one we've been discussing for the past three posts ?



> I didn't say Tsunade can't pressure Deidara, I said she can't do it alone with speed, meaning Deidara can always put a distance between her and himself.



Nope, but she can pressure him with speed and taijutsu. 



> Those feats aren't even proper speed feats. Even if they were, they aren't even good.







> I am not suggesting that Deidara can fight her in CQC.



So you agree that if and when Tsunade charges up to him and he underestimates her with clay bombs, she will just kill him and go home for a cup of tea? Excellent.



> The moment he witnesses her strength(which also happens to be her weakness) Deidara will see the opportuntiy and go airborne and finish her off from there.



Deidara won't witness her strength until it's too late. She charges up to him, attacks, he jumps, she misses, he's then in the air, and she kills him while he's airborne. The end. He can't do shit about it against a foe whose infinitely more skilled in taijutsu than him.



> Or just hop on his bird and nuke the hell out of Tsunade.



Since you have failed to refute anything I have said, which has proven this assertion to be utter horse shit, I will just swiftly ignore it and move on. 



> No you don't. Getting caught off guard from behind isn't considered a blitz. Deidara turned to see Naruto already in mid attack. He didn't have arms so he couldn't block or parry. And if Deidara dodged it, it'd suggest a massive speed difference, in Deidara's favor.



There are plenty of examples where shinobi have been ' ambushed ' from behind and then turned around to evade the attack on time. Deidara simply didn't have the skill to do so.



> Um arms would allow him to use his clay attacks ?



How the fuck is he going to continually make clay against three foes who are just as fast as, if not faster than Sasuke, in close combat, whenever Sasuke was already pressuring him? He won't have the time, he'll be constantly trying to evade, failing, and then getting smacked around.



> Deidara will never engage Tsunade in taijutsu(he never engaged anyone in taijutsu) so its irrelevant what you believe is possible or not.



Nope, but she will engage him in taijutsu, and then he's fucked.




> Ok I am fairly certain that you don't know what blitz means.
> 
> This is a blitz : *he says this.*
> 
> ...



I don't know what more you want. I have literally given you a panel where she blitzed him, gave reasoning for why it was blatantly obvious that it was a blitz - to which you couldn't even refute, and you're still not accepting that it's a blitz. Useless debate is useless.



> If Tsunade was fast enough to blitz Orochimaru, then the fight would end here :
> Link removed



No it wouldn't - get your bullshit logic out of here.

a) She attacked him at a greater distance, he had more time to react

and

b) she jumped into the air to get more force and momentum behind her drop-kick. The speed of her attack was dependant on gravity, so obviously it wasn't as fast as an attack that involved her running up and smacking him in the face.



> If we don't know how fast Manda is, then how is this a credible speed feat ? Also there are no set rules on interception feats like the one you mentioned.
> Interception feats are mainly *timing* feats, not speed feats, unless they are visually or verbally expressed so.
> In Tsunade's case, it was more of a strength feat.



Because he is obviously fast from having effortlessly dodged Katsuyu's acidic blast, and sped around Katsuyu and Tsunade without giving them barely any time to react. He also sheds his skin and buries himself underground before Jiraiya and Gamabunta's katon can scorch him. Granted, his speed feats are few and far between, but it is blatantly obvious that Kishimoto wants us to believe that Manda is quick. Anyway, this is a completely legitimate feat since we actively see her in the air swinging the blade around before and after Manda goes to snap his jaw shut. The strength that was involved allowed Tsunade to lift the blade, the speed that was involved allowed her to use said strength before Manda snapped his jaw shut. Case closed.



> Link removed
> Manda made his attack visible here. She could have jumped then.



Indeed, she could have, it doesn't change the fact that she swung that blade around and through his head before he could close his mouth. You realise how fast cobras can snap their mouth's shut, right?



> But like I said, this isn't a speed feat. We don't know how fast manda is, we don't know how fast you have to be to intercept him. This doesn't give us a clue about where Tsunade'd b placed in regards to other shinobi because we haven't seen anyone else fight Manda.



So what? It's still a speed feat. Manda is obviously fast, and Tsunade blitzed him. All that is important is that she blitzed a fast opponent. No, that isn't any grounds to assert that she can blitz other fast opponents, but it is grounds to believe that Kishimoto is implying her to be quick in her own right.

You asked for Tsunade's speed feats, you didn't ask for them all to be _quantifiable_, but it is a speed feat no less. I have provided you with plenty of other speed quantifiable speed feats though, but whether or not you choose to fuck logic and ignore them, is up to you.​​


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 20, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> When she has more than he does yeah it does as long as there is no contradiction.



Their hype is not related. You are using Orochimaru and Jiraiya's hype, two superior combatants than her to make her look stronger than Deidara, wich she hasn't _shown_ to be. 



> The Sannin are at the level of praise where if you haven't shown to contend with one of them you aren't assumed to be able to. A direct comparison  between the two is not needed, Deidara doesn't simply default to Tsunade's level as you're implying he does with your "hasn't shown to be below her" comment. That isn't how it works. She would be his provisional superior; he's going to be below her until he proves to be on par with her, which he hasn't done.



I've yet to see where a Sannin is put above an Akatsuki level, especially when the opposite has been shown, at least, talking about Tsunade. Wich is why i don't use hype here. But even then, Kishimoto showed that you don't need to be at the level of somebody to defeat that somebody.

And i thought he did prove to be above her.



> _*1.)*_ If you're implying that Orochimaru might've killed the Kazekage in his sleep or something that's exceedingly unlikely. Kabuto congratulates Orochimaru on having impressively taken down two of the Five Kages, thus the approach with which he would have taken on the Kazekage should be consistent with how he took on the Hokage- which is direct confrontation.



Nah, not in his sleep. But we have no idea how the battle went out, or what did Orochimaru do, or if the Kazekage was caught off guard.



> _*2.)*_ Kimimaro was too weak for his presence to have honestly been impactful against any Kage and we know from Orochimaru's comments to Hiruzen that he doesn't like weaker people interfering with his bouts because they just get in the way. If we assume Kimimaro wasn't already lying in bed sick (considering that the ninja who found the bodies said that they were killed just before the start of the operation, meaning not even two weeks before we saw Kimi lying there already on his way to dying) the most he could have done was take out those two fodders with the Kazekage fairly similar to how Kabuto was assigned Naruto and Shizune whilst Orochimaru himself went after Jiraiya alone.



Nah, Kimimaro was in better condition than when he was against Gaara, and he bulldozed extremely well through Gaara's sand. So yeah, A kage level and a Jounin or above vs a Kage is surely a downhill match, especially if said Jounin can tank your attacks.



> _*3.)*_ The Fourth Kazekage's body was found _in the desert_, which his village itself is located in, and there is no reason whatsoever that he couldn't have used huge amounts of gold dust even if he wasn't in the desert (though he clearly was) because unlike Gaara _he isn't reliant upon the sand_.
> 
> You shouldn't need to know anything else.



I am too lazy to look for the panel. Do ypu remember if the Kazekage was in his battle outfit or his Kazekage outfit? Because if it's the latter, i doubt a real battle happened.



> Nice attempt to counter what _wasn't_ my reasoning in the first place.
> 
> She is as strong as Jiraiya and Orochimaru because Kishimoto himself has explicitly stated that she is.



Yeah, Kishimoto changes his mind a lot of times. She is not as strong as SM Jiraiya and Orochimaru with Edo Tensei. She can be at their level in her own right, with medical ninjutsu and such, but battlewise she is not.

If you say she is above Deidara overall, sure. But as a fighter? No.



> Sasuke's mastery of the Sharingan and powerful affinity for Raiton are of his own merit; it isn't like Part 1 Kakashi would also beat Deidara if we put him in the same situation despite him having both of the aforementioned tools. Most importantly, though, if you take away what makes Sasuke "Sasuke" (and weaken him massively in the process considering those are his primary abilities that he uses in each and every one of his battles) your argument was pretty weak from the outset.



It _still_ counts. Put somebody at Sasuke's level without Raiton or Sharingan and let's see how they fare. Don't twist my argument, i am not saying Sasuke is strong because of this, i am saying that almost any other of the _same_ level of Sasuke would've been defeated. Therefore, yeah, Sasuke had a clear, clear advantage over Deidara. Wich led him to fight at his level and counter his big guns.

Go throw Tsunade there, for example, and let's see if she does the same.



> The comments following the fight wouldn't have even been made if Orochimaru weren't intended to be beyond Deidara's level. If it were instead simply an issue of Deidara's overall power rivaling his own then that's what Sasuke would have said as opposed to explaining that Orochimaru was weakened instead.
> 
> The writing is all over the wall.



Oh but i do agree Orochimaru is above Deidara, how much? Not sure. I am saying that Tsunade hasn't _shown_ to be fighting wise, at least, to defeat Deidara in a fight. Giving her Orochimaru's and Jiraiya's hype is nothing, those are not hers. Especially when she is a diferent kind of fighter.



> Nope.



I lost all my hope then.



> Being serious, no he cannot.
> 
> For one, there is no apparent difference between Part 1 and Part 2 Kisame; secondly, Part 1 Naruto couldn't summon Gamabunta at will due to a Chakra control deficiency; and thirdly, Gamabunta only ever emerged after Naruto had already ruled out his other options anyway, it'd be far too late by the time he thought to even try it.
> 
> Not that it matters to begin with, because Kisame would just tank it, unlike Deidara who happens to be the most fragile/least defensive member of Akatsuki we know of.



So you are just saying that Deidara would be humilliated by Tsunade? . I was obviously joking with the Naruto part, but this is too much. Tsunade is not humilliating anybody of the kage level when she is around that level, so even if she is bound to win, she is not stomping anybody. Let alone a Bijuu hunter.



> Orochimaru was only ever established to hold a grudge against the Third Hokage, not the Fifth. All that was established during and following the Sannin Showdown was that Tsunade didn't like him, and she never liked him in the first place.



Let me be a bit sarcastic: Sure, they fought to death in the past, but now i will try to convince him.



> Orochimaru threatened a village because nothing within said village was a true threat to him (to his knowledge), but Katsuyu and Orochimaru had known each other for years prior to Tsunade's self-imposed exile and as a result he'd be aware of what her acid would do were it to land on him; he values his ambitions of acquiring all of the Jutsu in the ninja world far too much to risk his life for Tsunade or _anyone else's_ own. This is something Katsuyu should be aware of; what she _wasn't_ aware of was that Orochimaru was working with the ninja alliance and had a legitimate incentive to tend to Tsunade.
> 
> So yes, Katsuyu _would_ try and do that.



Excuse me, but this was not said in the manga. When the village was  in danger, their thought were "I hope the Fourth were alive". Not "I hope Tsunade or Jiraiya were here". Jiraiya failed to stop Orochimaru in the past, Tsunade was hardly a threat to Orochimaru and his Edo Tensei.

Nothing indicates she would've kept Orochimaru out of the village.



> Deidara had his eyes on Gaara's position the whole time, the remaining sand simply snuck around him unnoticed; that's a feat of stealth on the part of the sand, not a result of Deidara being inattentive. Those are two fundamentally different things.


And how much time do you think it passed? I doubt it passed longer than five seconds, unles he was amazed by how perfectly rounded Gaara could create a shield. You know, artists tends to have troubles drawing a perfect circle .



> The only thing stripped from Deidara at that point was being able to anticipate the sand based on Gaara's arm gestures, but Katsuyu's acid spray has no giveaways to begin with, so such is already virtually inconsequential for the purposes of the discussion.



Gaara was controlling sand from three different places. Katsuyu's acid cannot top that.



> The dust _cannot be_ from the explosion inside because the dust those explosives would have produced could have only been blanketed by the sand and fallen down along with it.
> 
> It _has_ to be from the previous bomb. If it was missing _only_ in the panel where the focus was the sphere's rumbling, when it would have been covered by the sfx text and emphasis lines anyway, it's an aesthetic choice that was corrected in the following depiction where said lines and text were absent.



Ahm, i am seeing as Kishimoto used the smoke to show it exploded inside, and the dust escaped through the holes of the sand while it was falling off.



> No it isn't...



We see the angles very different, it seems.



> Meaning you can't determine how long that was.



Fast enough, or faster than Katsuyu's acid, wich is my whole point. Unless i see some of Katsuyu's acid speed feats .



> That Gaara also raised his sand fast enough to catch the Fourth Kazekage off guard despite his apparent familiarity with dealing with Shukaku's sands. Given that, and the fact that Gaara has had quite a bit of time to improve prior to the war, a Gaara relying on the Shukaku's power as he was when Deidara attacked a few months previously is not likely to be able to move it around as fast as that, so...yeah...this doesn't say anything about the fight with Deidara.
> 
> Because different Gaaras.



What? Gaara captured the fourth kazekage off guard because he was standing in the very sand . Do you know if Gaara improved since? Because you know, he never fought again after that, and lost a Bijuu.



> I am not nor have I ever been saying that the sand formed _slowly_, I'm merely pointing out that you have no actual basis for it truly being _faster_ than Katsuyu's acid, as well as the fact that you're resorting to especially arbitrary circular reasoning and just trying to re-word it so that it doesn't look like you are (which is failing btw).



Wich do you think is faster? To end all of this. Because i said that even if speed is equalized, Katsuyu hasn't shown to spam acid, cannot control it and cannot cover Deidara like Gaara. So it still pales in comparison, by much.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 20, 2014)

_LostSelf_ I may or may not muster up the willpower to reply to that, and if I do I may just skip over most of it, because it really seems like you are being intentionally illiterate right now just to keep the argument going and I'm tempted to hand out my very first neg on these forums, but I don't want to do that cuz I think you're cool.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 20, 2014)

I don't think saying that Deidara beats Tsunade, or that she is not portrayed to be battlewise above him, or at least not enough to just summon Katsuyu on top of him and stomp him, or saying that Gaara's sand is more pressuring that Katsuyu's acid or that Sasuke managed to win by matchup is deserved of neg.

But fair enough.


----------



## Jad (Apr 20, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I don't think saying that Deidara beats Tsunade, or that she is not portrayed to be battlewise above him, or at least not enough to just *summon Katsuyu on top of him and stomp him*, or saying that Gaara's sand is more pressuring that Katsuyu's acid or that Sasuke managed to win by matchup is deserved of neg.
> 
> But fair enough.



Wait what?


----------



## Rocky (Apr 20, 2014)

^

"Food Cart Destroyer GG"


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I don't think saying that Deidara beats Tsunade, or that she is not portrayed to be battlewise above him, or at least not enough to just summon Katsuyu on top of him and stomp him, or saying that Gaara's sand is more pressuring that Katsuyu's acid or that Sasuke managed to win by matchup is deserved of neg.



It isn't. Willful ignorance is, however.



LostSelf said:


> Their hype is not related. You are using Orochimaru and Jiraiya's hype, two superior combatants than her to make her look stronger than Deidara.



They are not superior to her in Kishi's own words. 

If they are equals, *which they are*, their hype can naturally be transitively extended to Tsunade. The comment _is_ talking about battle strength because her being Jiraiya and Orochimaru's equal was used to justify her being the _strongest_ Kunoichi in history. It doesn't matter if she's a medic, Tsunade is a _ninja_, and as such, she is expected to do combat. She was recognized as a prodigy alongside her contemporaries well before her brother died, which is the point at which she picked up medical Ninjutsu, and even as a medical specialist her combat ability would not be precluded by such status because there are a multitude of offensive and auxiliary methods to its use in the heat of battle and Tsunade herself explicitly states to Sakura that being a medic is no excuse for comparatively lesser combat ability. Her name alone would not strike _fear_ into the hearts of enemy ninja both living and dead like Jiraiya and Orochimaru's do if such were actually the case, and the relationship between the three would not be a deadlock if such were actually the case.

At least, that's what anybody without an agenda would acknowledge.



> I've yet to see where a Sannin is put above an Akatsuki level



Well then you've missed out on a lot of the manga somehow.

Kisame expressed that a Sannin was in a league beyond his own. Kakashi had heard of Sasori and yet still believed that the reason Akatsuki hadn't gone after Naruto over the time-skip was simply because a Sannin was with him. Deidara then went and admitted that Sasori was stronger than he was. Sasuke explained his issues with Deidara using Orochimaru's being in a weakened state when he was taken down. Konan was reduced to fodder in an instant by a Sannin.

That's already 5 instances right there off the top of my head.



> Nah, Kimimaro was in better condition than when he was against Gaara, and he bulldozed extremely well through Gaara's sand. So yeah, A kage level and a Jounin or above vs a Kage is surely a downhill match, especially if said Jounin can tank your attacks.



Kimimaro being in better condition is based on?

A Kage level having a Jōnin next to him is not going to make it a downhill match for the other Kage because there is too much of a dissimilarity in level as was established in Orochimaru and Hiruzen's confrontation; they would simply get in the way. Even if we straight up denied canon and maintained that that wasn't the case, I just love how you conventiently ignore the fact that the Kazekage had _two_ sand Jōnin alongside him.

The Fourth Kazekage is also a lot stronger than pre-skip Gaara in pretty much every sense by virtue of being able to match _post-skip_ Gaara's power, not to mention the Shukaku itself, so don't bring me this mess about Kimimaro running through Gaara's sand as if it means anything at all because it doesn't.



> I am too lazy to look for the panel. Do ypu remember if the Kazekage was in his battle outfit or his Kazekage outfit? Because if it's the latter, i doubt a real battle happened.



If you mean the one that his hat goes with then yes, not that it matters.

Kages can do battle in their village-head outfits. It isn't a hindrance or anything, Ay wears his all the time, and the Kazekage's other outfit is no better suited for battle.



> Yeah, Kishimoto changes his mind a lot of times. She is not as strong as SM Jiraiya and Orochimaru with Edo Tensei.



_Edo Tensei_ is not a default power because of the living sacrifice prerequisite and Kishi had already developed the concept of Sage Mode complete with Ma and Pa on Jiraiya's shoulders before he made the statement explicitly confirming that the Sannin are in fact equals.

You are just trying to (completely arbitrarily) weasel your way out of canon.



> It _still_ counts. Put somebody at Sasuke's level without Raiton or Sharingan and let's see how they fare. Don't twist my argument, i am not saying Sasuke is strong because of this, i am saying that almost any other of the _same_ level of Sasuke would've been defeated. Therefore, yeah, Sasuke had a clear, clear advantage over Deidara. Wich led him to fight at his level and counter his big guns.



I'm not twisting your argument.

If you take Sasuke and then strip him of what constitute large portions of his arsenal _he won't be on the same level_. That's the main thing wrong with your argument, you _have to_ massively weaken Sasuke in order to say Deidara would have won. You've afforded him no equally dangerous replacement abilities to make sure that he is actually on the same level in the meantime, which is seriously funny because Sasuke indicated that he had a plan even if his Raiton _couldn't_ diffuse the bombs.



> So you are just saying that Deidara would be humilliated by Tsunade?



Probably, and I already explained why.

Bijū hunter Kisame was going to be humiliated by a toad's esophagus if it weren't for Itachi, who had already been established as his superior. The range of the Kage level is vast.



> Let me be a bit sarcastic: Sure, they fought to death in the past, but now i will try to convince him.



Wouldn't be the first time this happened in canon.

When they fought to the death Katsuyu wasn't pre-occupied with the lives of the Five Kage, and Orochimaru relied on his summon to steer clear of the acid.

Being sarcastic does little for you.



> When the village was  in danger, their thought were "I hope the Fourth were alive". Not "I hope Tsunade or Jiraiya were here".



Incorrect.

Ebisu said that Hiruzen told everyone to look for another Sannin to deal with Orochimaru.



> And how much time do you think it passed? I doubt it passed longer than five seconds, unles he was amazed by how perfectly rounded Gaara could create a shield. You know, artists tends to have troubles drawing a perfect circle .



I have no way to measure how much time passed.

While I also doubt it took longer than five seconds I doubt Katsuyu's acid took even 5 seconds, so that doesn't really say anything for it being faster than her acid.



> Gaara was controlling sand from three different places. Katsuyu's acid cannot top that.



Irrelevant, because the overarching topic is how fast it is not how many different places it can come from.

Though Tsunade could just have three Katsuyus use the technique...



> What? Gaara captured the fourth kazekage off guard because he was standing in the very sand . Do you know if Gaara improved since? Because you know, he never fought again after that, and lost a Bijuu.



The Fourth Kazekage was standing on his gold, not the sand. _*"!! // He already raised his sand above the gold?"*_ indicates rather clearly that the Fourth Kazekage, despite already observing Gaara's sand control being similar enough to Shukaku's that he could mix them up, expected it to be slower, which would in turn mean that Shukaku's sands are slower than War Arc Gaara's, and that's how we know he improved from the time when he was still relying on the Shukaku's sands at the very least in the speed department.



> Wich do you think is faster? To end all of this. Because i said that even if speed is equalized, Katsuyu hasn't shown to spam acid, cannot control it and cannot cover Deidara like Gaara. So it still pales in comparison, by much.



I know that you said that but it's unimportant because my original question was about what Gaara's non-gourd sand has done to indicate that it's faster than Katsuyu's acid. *Not* whether it's more versatile, *not* whether it's more expansive, *simply* whether or not its _actually faster_.

And all I've gotten is circular reasoning.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 21, 2014)

This is going to be looooooong, like our old debates, in other words, as always. Therefore i will just focus on some points.

Let's assume Deidara was with them when Hanzo defeated them. Do you think he would've been given the title too? I mean, the attacks Tsunade has shown is nothing Deidara featwise can't contend with, or the level Tsunade has shown either. And i dare to say that even base Jiraiya's arsenal is not something Deidara can't fight without getting stomped, even if he ends up losing.

Jiraiya almost killing them with the toad jutsu has to do with their location too, and this is what i have against hype. I hope we don't believe that Itachi + Kisame + Pain can only stalemate Jiraiya when Pain alone and restricted forced him to run with three paths.  Another thing is that Kisame says something, but in Part 2 shows the ability of stealing so much chakra that with mere hits, he left Bee out, and Hachibi with little chakra.

If Tsunade's level is higher than Deidara, i might see her winning, like i said, depending on what Kishimoto wants to do with her. Why this? Because characters with lower levels have defeated others through matchups. Kisame defeating Bee and Sasuke defeating Deidara. Therefore i, in my eyes, don't see Tsunade stomping Deidara ever. Itachi did it (C1 exploded and the dust easily vanished ), but the gap between Itachi and her is big, big enough if we count hype.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> This is going to be looooooong, like our old debates, in other words, as always. Therefore i will just focus on some points.



Alright.



> Let's assume Deidara was with them when Hanzo defeated them. Do you think he would've been given the title too?



I doubt it, especially assuming that this is a younger Deidara just like those were younger Sannin. This is irrelevant though, because I already stated that I wasn't basing Tsunade's equality to Jiraiya and Orochimaru simply off of them sharing the same title. That title is only feared because of who it has been given to, not the other way around.

Feat-wise, there really isn't a thing Deidara can do about Tsunade summoning Katsuyu on top of him.

Or Jiraiya summoning Gamabunta on top of him...



> Jiraiya almost killing them with the toad jutsu has to do with their location too, and this is what i have against hype.



Wat?

_Gamaguchi Shibari_ could have been used had they been in a different location. If anything the location only made escaping easier since there was a window for Itachi to explode with _Amaterasu_ at the end of the hallway.



> I hope we don't believe that Itachi + Kisame + Pain can only stalemate Jiraiya when Pain alone and restricted forced him to run with three paths.



We don't have to believe that because Itachi never said Pein would have been part of the additional backup. For all we know when Itachi said "backup" he was referring to the lesser members of Akatsuki like the fodders used for the Shōten clones or the other rain ninja Jiraiya captured.



> Another thing is that Kisame says something, but in Part 2 shows the ability of stealing so much chakra that with mere hits, he left Bee out, and Hachibi with little chakra.



That's because Bee and the Eight Tails fight by manifesting shrouds of raw Chakra. Samehada would be hard pressed to swipe that much Chakra from the majority of the fighters in the verse in that manner.



> Because characters with lower levels have defeated others through matchups. Kisame defeating Bee and Sasuke defeating Deidara.



Sasuke was not at a lower general level than Deidara, and apparently could have won without the Raiton-diffusing advantage.



> Itachi did it (C1 exploded and the dust easily vanished ), but the gap between Itachi and her is big, big enough if we count hype.



Lolno.

_*Base*_ Itachi did that.

Tsunade >>> an Itachi that isn't using the Mangekyō.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 21, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Alright.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt it, especially assuming that this is a younger Deidara just like those were younger Sannin. This is irrelevant though, because I already stated that I wasn't basing Tsunade's equality to Jiraiya and Orochimaru simply off of them sharing the same title. That title is only feared because of who it has been given to, not the other way around.



I meant Deidara with the skills he has now.

Feat-wise, there really isn't a thing Deidara can do about Tsunade summoning Katsuyu on top of him.



> Or Jiraiya summoning Gamabunta on top of him...



Feat-wise counts behavior, wich is something she hasn't done. She never summoned Katsuyu on top of Kabuto,  also, shouldn't Tsunade be on top of him in order to summon Katsuyu on top of Deidara? 

We can also say she can defeat Tobirama with that example Or that she might hit a clone with it.



> Wat?
> 
> _Gamaguchi Shibari_ could have been used had they been in a different location. If anything the location only made escaping easier since there was a window for Itachi to explode with _Amaterasu_ at the end of the hallway.



How do we know this? (I seriously don't remember if it was used outside)



> We don't have to believe that because Itachi never said Pein would have been part of the additional backup. For all we know when Itachi said "backup" he was referring to the lesser members of Akatsuki like the fodders used for the Shōten clones or the other rain ninja Jiraiya captured.



It doesn't matter who he thought about. Itachi was portrayed above the Sannin before that. The Sannin that defeated Jiraiya called him an impossible dream. Something doesn't fit with one of both hypes.



> That's because Bee and the Eight Tails fight by manifesting shrouds of raw Chakra. Samehada would be hard pressed to swipe that much Chakra from the majority of the fighters in the verse in that manner.



In other words, bad matchup.



> Sasuke was not at a lower general level than Deidara, and apparently could have won without the Raiton-diffusing advantage.



Actually, not only Raiton helped Sasuke there, but Sharingan. The plan he had would have probably not worked when he was forced to take C4 after he was tricked to use the clone. Sasuke having those two exact advantages and yet ending so bad after the fight says a lot about Deidara.



> Lolno.
> 
> _*Base*_ Itachi did that.
> 
> Tsunade >>> an Itachi that isn't using the Mangekyō.



This is the same Itachi that made Orochimaru forfeit and be called an impossible dream. By hype and portrayal, Itachi would likely do the same to Tsunade. On top of that, he managed this because Deidara had no knowledge (Even though Itachi would've won either way).


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 22, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I meant Deidara with the skills he has now.



Deidara as he is now should only be compared to the Sannin in concurrent times.

It's irrelevant either way, though.



> Feat-wise counts behavior, wich is something she hasn't done. She never summoned Katsuyu on top of Kabuto,  also, shouldn't Tsunade be on top of him in order to summon Katsuyu on top of Deidara?



She was hemophobic against Kabuto and summoning requires blood.

Tier 5 intelligence Tsunade is not going to sit there like an idiot and stick with Taijutsu while Deidara is in the air, she is going to resort to her ranged options which encompass summoning her slug that she has had appear in front of her and to her side as opposed to beneath her.

She doesn't need to have done it on panel; there is no behavioral pattern, rule she has set for herself, _or_ last resort/potential drawback nature to this tactic that would result in disagreement with any IC stipulations. It is her best option against an aerial opponent and it is no threat to her person.



> We can also say she can defeat Tobirama with that example



_So what?_

Tobirama can teleport it away regardless.



> Or that she might hit a clone with it.



It's range is far too wide for that.



> How do we know this? (I seriously don't remember if it was used outside)



It's a summoning with the same mechanics as any other, it just happens to be a single organ as opposed to the whole thing and said organ would be a narrow tunnel regardless of the battlefield just like Gama is the same shape regardless of whether he's indoors or outdoors. It doesn't have to be indoors in order to work; the only thing being inside does for it is make it harder for the enemy to notice, but Jiraiya went and narrated it anyway, so that part isn't even pertinent.



> It doesn't matter who he thought about. Itachi was portrayed above the Sannin before that. The Sannin that defeated Jiraiya called him an impossible dream. Something doesn't fit with one of both hypes.



Alright, to start, Orochimaru said it was a dream, not that it was an impossible one. If you want to talk about stuff not fitting Orochimaru wouldn't have tried to go after Itachi again once he broke free of Sasuke's Curse Mark if he actually thought attaining his body was impossible. In addition to that, taking someone out while leaving their body in a relatively healthy condition in order for you to inhabit afterwards is harder than killing them when you have no such preserving to worry about. So that's already something making Jiraiya's situation easier to handle than Orochimaru's, and the two do not have identical skill-sets in the first place.

Now, given the lengths the Snake Sannin goes to in order to preserve his life-span showcasing the depths of his ambition, there is only one condition that _needs_ to be met for Orochimaru's comment to make sense, and that is that Itachi is a true threat to him. Now, consider that Kisame said Itachi might be able to take Jiraiya and we can see that the same would apply to the Toad Sannin, but that doesn't stop it from also applying in reverse as we can also take from Kisame's comment.

The notion that Orochimaru's admission has to cancel out Itachi's is nothing but _a false dilemma_, because nothing about said admission actually places Itachi in a tier beyond the Sannin's, as you can be stronger than someone and still be on the same general level as them. It's not like Kisame's expression that explicitly notes "in a different league", and the fact that Kisame wasn't sure if Itachi could take Jiraiya and Itachi thought he could pass that "even with backup" line by Kisame should place him somewhere in the same ballpark as the Sannin.

So with all that said, yes, it _*does*_ matter who Itachi thought about.



> In other words, bad matchup.



And one that doesn't apply to any of the Sannin.



> Actually, not only Raiton helped Sasuke there, but Sharingan. The plan he had would have probably not worked when he was forced to take C4 after he was tricked to use the clone.



There is no such cut off about when it would stop working in the manga- the fact that having another plan was mentioned _after_ those stages in the fight had already ended, if anything, instead implies that it _would have_ worked.



> This is the same Itachi that made Orochimaru forfeit



_*1.)*_ We do not even know the full details of that event. That Orochimaru forfeited is pure speculation because the conclusion of that encounter is not illustrated.

_*2.)*_ Orochimaru would have known Itachi could whip out the Mangekyō at any time, thus it isn't the same Itachi because the Mangekyō was never a factor against Deidara. You're comparing a sequence Itachi would have finished in base (Deidara's) to one he could not have possibly finished without the Mangekyō regardless of knowledge (Orochimaru's), and it doesn't work.



> By hype and portrayal, Itachi would likely do the same to Tsunade.



No, not even.

Itachi cannot defeat Tsunade without the Mangekyō Sharingan, knowledge or not.


----------



## Nikushimi (Apr 22, 2014)

Sasori and Deidara are comparable to Jiraiya and Orochimaru; I would say the two Akatsuki are even a bit stronger.

Tsunade's a little weaker than those four and a little stronger than Kisame...though I highly doubt she would beat him if he had proper intel on her abilities.

Kakuzu is probably the best she could handle from Akatsuki.

I really don't see Tsunade beating Deidara, here; C4 disintegrates way faster than Byakugou was shown to regenerate.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 22, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I really don't see Tsunade beating Deidara, here; C4 disintegrates way faster than Byakugou was shown to regenerate.



On what grounds are you asserting that?

Just as parts of Sasuke's body crumbled into nothing fairly quickly, certain parts of Tsunade's critically wounded body regenerated almost instantly. C4 seems no faster than Byakugou as far as I can tell.​​


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 22, 2014)

Diedara avoiding team gai in cqc, should pretty much translate to him being able to avoid tsunade in cqc, i don't see how she can win.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 22, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Deidara as he is now should only be compared to the Sannin in concurrent times.
> 
> It's irrelevant either way, though.



Didn't get it. But ok.



> She was hemophobic against Kabuto and summoning requires blood.



She could have done it after. Or the same Orochimaru could've done it against them.



> Tier 5 intelligence Tsunade is not going to sit there like an idiot and stick with Taijutsu while Deidara is in the air, she is going to resort to her ranged options which encompass summoning her slug that she has had appear in front of her and to her side as opposed to beneath her.
> 
> She doesn't need to have done it on panel; there is no behavioral pattern, rule she has set for herself, _or_ last resort/potential drawback nature to this tactic that would result in disagreement with any IC stipulations. It is her best option against an aerial opponent and it is no threat to her person.



She _needs_ to be above Deidara for her to do that. Something she might not be able to do. Therefore it's highly unlikely.



> _So what?_
> 
> Tobirama can teleport it away regardless.



If he cannot see it coming, i doubt it. But let me put a better example. Do you think Kakashi can one shot Hashirama  with Kamui, in a face to face confrontation?



> It's range is far too wide for that.



Range doesn't matter when they pull out clones. Kakashi pulled a Kawarimi in mid air, away from a huge ass elemental blast of Kakuzu that appeared by surprise. 



> It's a summoning with the same mechanics as any other, it just happens to be a single organ as opposed to the whole thing and said organ would be a narrow tunnel regardless of the battlefield just like Gama is the same shape regardless of whether he's indoors or outdoors. It doesn't have to be indoors in order to work; the only thing being inside does for it is make it harder for the enemy to notice, but Jiraiya went and narrated it anyway, so that part isn't even pertinent.



Fair enough.



> Alright, to start, Orochimaru said it was a dream, not that it was an impossible one. If you want to talk about stuff not fitting Orochimaru wouldn't have tried to go after Itachi again once he broke free of Sasuke's Curse Mark if he actually thought attaining his body was impossible. In addition to that, taking someone out while leaving their body in a relatively healthy condition in order for you to inhabit afterwards is harder than killing them when you have no such preserving to worry about. So that's already something making Jiraiya's situation easier to handle than Orochimaru's, and the two do not have identical skill-sets in the first place.



Why wouldn't he go after Itachi? He was coughing blood, almost blind and essentially dying. And even then, Oro was still one panelled. Either way, i think Kishi has been very clear when he placed Itachi above the sannin. So i seriously doubt that Jiraiya's hype was true.



> Now, given the lengths the Snake Sannin goes to in order to preserve his life-span showcasing the depths of his ambition, there is only one condition that _needs_ to be met for Orochimaru's comment to make sense, and that is that Itachi is a true threat to him. Now, consider that Kisame said Itachi might be able to take Jiraiya and we can see that the same would apply to the Toad Sannin, but that doesn't stop it from also applying in reverse as we can also take from Kisame's comment.



Kisame said that a retreat was not necessary for Itachi, not that he might be able to take him. Unless we assume that Jiraiya much stronger than Itachi, to the point that another kage level shinobi doesn't matter. Wich i find literally as a lie from Itachi's side.



> The notion that Orochimaru's admission has to cancel out Itachi's is nothing but _a false dilemma_, because nothing about said admission actually places Itachi in a tier beyond the Sannin's, as you can be stronger than someone and still be on the same general level as them. It's not like Kisame's expression that explicitly notes "in a different league", and the fact that Kisame wasn't sure if Itachi could take Jiraiya and Itachi thought he could pass that "even with backup" line by Kisame should place him somewhere in the same ballpark as the Sannin.
> 
> So with all that said, yes, it _*does*_ matter who Itachi thought about.



Again, unless we believe that Itachi by himself cannot kill Jiraiya, even with the help of Kisame, then sure, it does matter. But since Itachi has been more hyped, and stronger than him, it doesn't matter who he thought about. Because Itachi and Kisame together should be more than enough to stomp Jiraiya.



> And one that doesn't apply to any of the Sannin.



Since Deidara is a bad matchup for her, it does apply to Tsunade in this matchup.



> There is no such cut off about when it would stop working in the manga- the fact that having another plan was mentioned _after_ those stages in the fight had already ended, if anything, instead implies that it _would have_ worked.



Except that Sasuke was not in control of that situation as his _only_ answer to that C4 was raiton. His paln might've been taking down Deidara in other circunstances, but not in the one he was in, otherwise, he wouldn't have been put in a desperate situation like he was. Since Sasuke never planned to be hit by C4 the second time, X plan was surely not enough to counter that.



> _*1.)*_ We do not even know the full details of that event. That Orochimaru forfeited is pure speculation because the conclusion of that encounter is not illustrated.



He forfeited and never looked for Itachi again until he was in his death bed. A hand cut was enough for the battle to stop there, i see no reason to believe that more happened since absence of evidence is not evidence, we have what we have.



> _*2.)*_ Orochimaru would have known Itachi could whip out the Mangekyo at any time, thus it isn't the same Itachi because the Mangekyo was never a factor against Deidara. You're comparing a sequence Itachi would have finished in base (Deidara's) to one he could not have possibly finished without the Mangekyo regardless of knowledge (Orochimaru's), and it doesn't work.



Orochimaru had no way of knowing Itachi had MS, as much as i recall.



> No, not even.
> 
> Itachi cannot defeat Tsunade without the Mangekyo Sharingan, knowledge or not.



You know, i used to think that. Until i saw the Hokage mindset at 7. I believe everything when it comes to Kishimoto and Itachi, and i bet that his fight with Oro, and Oro's words pretty much puts Itachi above the Sannins. And if we swapped Oro with Tsunade, probably the same thing would've happened.

But considering this goes against feats, it's why i prevent myself of entering a debate of "portrayal". Because we can see feats working in one argument, but not working in the other.

Plus. Itachi would've needed MS if Deidara had the knowledge Orochimaru had. Therefore it's an unfair comparison either way.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Apr 22, 2014)

The Gaara vs Deidara fight was a bit unfair because Deidara was smart enough to use his village against him.
It wasn't really 1v1, so when people say Deidara beat him, it was only due to Gaara protecting the village. Even then, Deidara was lucky with the C3 bomb.

Also the weakest Kage is not Gaara whatsoever, it's either Mei or Tsunade( due to this group, although none of the kages are actually weak)

Back on topic

C3 or C4 takes the win. Tsunade isn't regenerating from a leg. Deidara is faster than her, and won't engage in CQC. As soon as she exploits her power he will be aware that one hit can kill him. He will spam his bombs and eventaully she will lose mid-high difficult due to Byakugo


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 22, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade is an evasive expert. Tsunade invented the fucking medical rules, including the one that says a medical ninja should never be the first to perish in battle. She even teaches Sakura how to be evasive. Chiyo then states that a high level of evasive skills come with experience - she too is a medical ninja. Oh and, guess what Tsunade has, she has _decades_ of experience.
> 
> I can give you Tsunade's evasive feats, but I don't even need to do so to prove that Tsunade can dodge clay bombs that move about as slowly, if not slower than shuriken/kunai.
> 
> ...


I'll just adress 2 points. The most relevant ones.

First point : 

Speed blitz requires one party to be significantly faster than the other ot the extend that he/she should be capable of moving beyond the physical or mental reactions of his/her opponent consistently. Landing a hit on someone can't be generalized as a speed blitz because 2 people with equal speed will eventually land hits on each other(or even a slower person can land a hit on a faster person if circumstances allow it, like an ambush for instance). 

Considering that one of your speed blitz feats involve Tsunade basically intercepting/ambushing an opponent, and the other one involving her basically catching someone off guard from merely inches away from where her foot is, I am fairly certain that you have no idea what a speed blitz is.

Second Point : 

Speed is a linear concept. We need a quantifiable feat to compare to others. Otherwise it is impossible to do so. If X is faster than Y and Z is faster than W this doesn't tell anything about the relation ship between X and Z or Y and W.  Saying that "so what, it is still a speed feat" doesn't fly. It is meaningless.

But please enlighten me. You've been clinging so hard to that "speed feat", I am pretty sure you have an explanation to it. What is the correlation between Tsunade being faster than Manda to Tsunade's fight against Deidara. Hint : We don't know where Deidara stands in relation to Manda in regards to speed.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 22, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> She could have done it after. Or the same Orochimaru could've done it against them.



Not reliably because another boss summon emerging would have knocked Katsuyu off course and diverted the impact away from her target, and Kabuto kinda just shouted "Manda" from his position.

The same applies in reverse for Orochimaru and Kabuto.



> She _needs_ to be above Deidara for her to do that.



In the initial stages of the Invasion of Pein and in the aftermath of the Five Kage vs. Madara battle she summoned Katsuyu in front of her and to her side respectively. 

She isn't restricted to summoning it directly beneath her, and she has enough of a measure of control over it to summon it on top of Deidara without being in a positional advantage above him herself.



> If he cannot see it coming, i doubt it.



If he can sense it coming, I wouldn't.



> But let me put a better example. Do you think Kakashi can one shot Hashirama  with Kamui, in a face to face confrontation?



How in the world is this a better example?

And no.



> Range doesn't matter when they pull out clones. Kakashi pulled a Kawarimi in mid air, away from a huge ass elemental blast of Kakuzu that appeared by surprise.



Range still matters because the person in question still needs to actually move out of the way while the clone is taking the attack.

Kakashi didn't _Kawarimi_ any of Kakuzu's elemental blasts, he simply managed to shift far enough out of the way of _Fūton: Atsugai_ to avoid taking the shot straight on, but we can see it still got him because it ripped off his jacket and headband while tearing his mask. In addition to that the blasts are at their smallest when near the mask itself and they get progressively wider the longer they go on; as close as the mask was to Kakashi the attack wouldn't have been nearly as wide as Katsuyu is thick.



> Why wouldn't he go after Itachi?



Because if it were truly impossible circumstances wouldn't affect it.



> And even then, Oro was still one paneled.



…Either we're reading different manga or one of us doesn't know how to count to one.

And it was a clash of both of their ultimate and most draining techniques from the outset, with Orochimaru not caring about being struck because he wasn't thinking the sword would threaten him. That sequence wouldn't be reflective of the pacing of a normal fight between them unless Itachi has already acknowledged that he hasn't anything else in his arsenal to actually put Orochimaru down short of his ultimate technique, which wouldn't place him significantly ahead of his opponent.



> Either way, i think Kishi has been very clear when he placed Itachi above the sannin. So i seriously doubt that Jiraiya's hype was true.



Similarly, I think Kishi has been very clear that a Sannin is a worthy adversary for Itachi even if he is slightly stronger in the long-run.

Itachi was never fixed to stand so far above the Sannin that it would have to falsify Jiraiya's hype.



> Kisame said that a retreat was not necessary for Itachi, not that he might be able to take him. Unless we assume that Jiraiya much stronger than Itachi, to the point that another kage level shinobi doesn't matter. Wich i find literally as a lie from Itachi's side.



Even if it were a lie it had to be able to work, which would require it to at least be believable.

Kisame _did_ say that Itachi might be able to take him on before Itachi started talking about backup, and that's why he didn't think a retreat was necessary for Itachi (though that doesn't say anything for himself). Jiraiya does not need to be much stronger than Itachi or really even stronger than him at all; the two were simply so far beyond Kisame that he wasn't more likely to tip the scales one way than the other.



> Again, unless we believe that Itachi by himself cannot kill Jiraiya, even with the help of Kisame, then sure, it does matter. But since Itachi has been more hyped, and stronger than him, it doesn't matter who he thought about. Because Itachi and Kisame together should be more than enough to stomp Jiraiya.



Itachi could (potentially) kill Jiraiya by himself, and he'd have to because Kisame wasn't reliable assistance due to the level gap present. We saw what happened when they actually encountered each other, and every bit of it was status quo according to their earlier sentiments. Jiraiya used a single Jutsu and Kisame couldn't have escaped it through his own efforts, causing him to start panicking. It was all up to Itachi to carry the fight because Kisame was in over his head, leaving the Uchiha responsible for covering for him, something that may very well have been at his own expense at some point. That illustrates that Kisame's presence would have been antagonistic, not additive, because his power was too far beneath the other two.

That's all that it implies, Jiraiya does not need to be stronger than Itachi in order for the testimonial to hold true, which it seemingly would have.



> Since Deidara is a bad matchup for her, it does apply to Tsunade in this matchup.



No it doesn't because Deidara isn't a bad matchup for her. If he really were you'd have provided his defense against Katsuyu being dropped on top of him already, but he doesn't have one.



> Except that Sasuke was not in control of that situation as his _only_ answer to that C4 was raiton. His paln might've been taking down Deidara in other circunstances, but not in the one he was in, otherwise, he wouldn't have been put in a desperate situation like he was. Since Sasuke never planned to be hit by C4 the second time, X plan was surely not enough to counter that.



You don't have any more of a basis for that than you would have for saying that Raiton was his only counter to the minefield, except that's clearly not the case.

Even if I were to concede to this (and I don't), if Sasuke weren't able to counter _C4_ he wouldn't have countered the mine-field because he used the much same method, meaning that he would have gone with his other plan and likely ended Deidara before _C4_ ever came into play to begin with.

In other words, it really wouldn't matter because Deidara'd have lost either way; the whole point of bringing up the plan was to drive home that he had simply been outclassed.



> He forfeited and never looked for Itachi again until he was in his death bed.



And you figure that how?



> A hand cut was enough for the battle to stop there, i see no reason to believe that more happened *since absence of evidence is not evidence*, we have what we have.



The phrase you're looking for is actually "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", which would mean that just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Answer me this:

_*1.)*_ Knowing what Orochimaru is capable of, how does a severed hand not instigate inquiry on our part? A wound like that is nothing for one who is easily among the hardiest and most resilient entities in the verse and laughs at fireballs and earth-shattering strikes to the face, bifurcation via astonishingly strong claw swipes, being twisted up like an ugly doll by huge energy blasts, decapitation, and impalement by swords the size of his very torso. Surely you do not expect a mere severed hand alone to be sufficient to end a skirmish with this guy?

_*2.)*_ How is it that Itachi was familiar with the feeling of _Yamata no Orochi_? By your logic, he never could have experienced it before because it wasn't shown on panel.

_*3.)*_ On the same note, why is it that Orochimaru expressed surprise as the presence of the _Totsuka no Tsurugi_ and not _Susano'o_ itself, unless he was aware of one but not the other? Again, according to you he shouldn't have ever seen either of them.

And oh lookie here, we actually have legitimate reason to believe more happened than what was showcased on panel now don't we? Yes, yes we do.

Now why don't you provide reason to assume that nothing else happened?



> Orochimaru had no way of knowing Itachi had MS, as much as i recall.



Because the MS was super secretive within the system and Konoha's higher ups didn't know about it from when Itachi was part of the Anbu Black Ops, right? Except no, people were aware of it and you'd think the guy specifically after Itachi's body for its abilities would know more than most, wouldn't you? (Why else would Orochimaru be after Itachi when there were a clan's-worth of other Uchiha he could have picked up at the time???)

We also know Sasuke experienced _Tsukuyomi_ himself, but never _Amaterasu_ until his final fight with Itachi. So how did he know about it and its properties beforehand? The only logical explanation is Orochimaru, no? But how would even Orochimaru be aware of it if he didn't know Itachi had the Mangekyō when he broke away from Akatsuki and would have resultantly lost contact with them, hah?

If you're going to assume he didn't know about it before the confrontation then he must have found out about it through that confrontation, which brings us back to these not being the same Itachis because Deidara's instance would have been a done deal in base.



> I believe everything when it comes to Kishimoto and Itachi



Be my guest.

It doesn't matter because nothing Kishimoto has done places base Itachi above the Sannin.



> Plus. Itachi would've needed MS if Deidara had the knowledge Orochimaru had.



Itachi couldn't have just turned close-proximity Deidara into a toasted pincushion without the MS why exactly?



> Therefore it's an unfair comparison either way.



Don't go full girl on me calling the very comparison you brought up unfair.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 23, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Speed blitz requires one party to be significantly faster than the other ot the extend that he/she should be capable of moving beyond the physical or mental reactions of his/her opponent consistently. Landing a hit on someone can't be generalized as a speed blitz because 2 people with equal speed will eventually land hits on each other(or even a slower person can land a hit on a faster person if circumstances allow it, like an ambush for instance).



A speed blitz occurs when the attacker moves faster than the recipient is capable of reacting, it is no simpler or more complex than that. In both cases when Tsunade hit Manda and Orochimaru, she did so by casually running at/jumping at her opponent and striking them. It wasn't a prolonged close quarters exchange where actual taijutsu skill was involved - in which case you'd be correct in asserting that 2 people with equal speed and similar skill would eventually land hits on one another. That wasn't the case here, because Tsunade just ran up and hit her foes, there was no true _skill_ involved.



> Considering that one of your speed blitz feats involve Tsunade basically intercepting/ambushing an opponent, and the other one involving her basically catching someone off guard from merely inches away from where her foot is, I am fairly certain that you have no idea what a speed blitz is.



I admit, in the case of the Manda he did not actually know Tsunade was attacking him. In that respect it wasn't really a blitz. However, Tsunade still got above him and swung a sword through his head before he could close his mouth shut. That is a strong testament of her speed, and if she can perform a feat like that before he can simply snap his jaw (something cobras do incredibly quickly) then it is totally reasonable to assume that she moves faster than him, and has the potential to blitz.

She blitzed Orochimaru. I've already explained why and you never actually refuted my argument, you just regurgitated what has already been proved false. So, I'll swiftly move on . .



> Speed is a linear concept. We need a quantifiable feat to compare to others. Otherwise it is impossible to do so. If X is faster than Y and Z is faster than W this doesn't tell anything about the relation ship between X and Z or Y and W.  Saying that "so what, it is still a speed feat" doesn't fly. It is meaningless.



No, it isn't. Any demonstration of speed is just that,  a demonstration of speed. So what if it isn't quantifiable? If Kishimoto bluntly tells you a character is fast, then it means they're fast, and that's pretty much exactly what he's done here. I appreciate that just because she blitzed Manda, it doesn't mean that she could blitz other (and I use this term in a very general sense) _fast_ opponents, but it at least suggests that Tsunade is no slouch in the speed department. Take from that what you will, but ignoring it and deeming it " meaningless " is just ignorance. 



> But please enlighten me. You've been clinging so hard to that "speed feat", I am pretty sure you have an explanation to it. What is the correlation between Tsunade being faster than Manda to Tsunade's fight against Deidara. Hint : We don't know where Deidara stands in relation to Manda in regards to speed.



I've given you many explanations and you have yet to refute any of them. You started a new post and my counters were all but ignored. I'm not " clinging " to that speed feat either, I presented to you many other quantifiable speed feats that are more impressive than this one, but again, you ignored them all.​​


----------



## Turrin (Apr 23, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Diedara avoiding team gai in cqc, should pretty much translate to him being able to avoid tsunade in cqc, i don't see how she can win.


Deidara defended one attack from exhausted tenten; should I give him a cookie? The fact that Deidara was blitz by Sai's Neo, omoi getting the better of him, and couldn't evade a simple Shuriken trick on Sasuke's part, very clearly suggests that Deidara being able to effortless dodge Tsunade in CQC is a pipe dream.


----------

