# One Epic-level D&D wizard vs HST



## AngryHeretic (Nov 2, 2015)

*One Epic 3.5e D&D wizard vs HST*

Let's assume he's level 40, and that he can use any spells in the Player Handbook and Epic Level Handbook, and has access to any items there as well (but limited by item slots, spells per day, and such).

Scenario 1: he fights each of the three verses, one after another, with rest
Scenario 2: he fights all three verses at once

Bonus scenario: how far does he get in Marvel/DC?


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## Katsuargi (Nov 2, 2015)

Opening up epic level handbooks is a bit of a clusterfuck because you're dealing with seeds and spell creation.

Unless you mean that they can -only- use the spells specifically listed?


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## martryn (Nov 2, 2015)

So you bring up DnD and we should automatically assume you're talking about 3.5?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Nov 2, 2015)

Default should be _current_ unless otherwise specified


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## AngryHeretic (Nov 2, 2015)

Katsuargi said:


> Opening up epic level handbooks is a bit of a clusterfuck because you're dealing with seeds and spell creation.
> 
> Unless you mean that they can -only- use the spells specifically listed?



I haven't looked into the spell creation too much. Yeah, only the spells specifically listed. Otherwise it could get even more messy than it already is with all the stuff available.




			
				martryn said:
			
		

> So you bring up DnD and we should automatically assume you're talking about 3.5?



No. I mention "level 40" and "Epic-Level Handbook", and you should automatically assume I'm talking about 3.5, by simply eliminating every edition that doesn't have rules going up that far or that official book. 





> Default should be current unless otherwise specified



The fact that current D&D doesn't even have epic levels doesn't negate that?

Well if you could change the thread title then, that'd be great.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Nov 2, 2015)

You can specify whatever you want. But you should be clear because not everyone knows D&D.


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## martryn (Nov 2, 2015)

> No. I mention "level 40" and "Epic-Level Handbook", and you should automatically assume I'm talking about 3.5, by simply eliminating every edition that doesn't have rules going up that far or that official book.



I mean, obviously, but 4th edition came out over 7 years ago, and we've moved on to 5th edition, and many people consider Pathfinder another name for DnD.  Clarification would help confusion when you talk about past editions.

Some people might just assume you don't know what you're talking about.

Anyways, it's hard to discuss intelligently because of the options available to such a character, but I imagine the best he can hope for is a stalemate.  I'm assuming that this is one character on a battlefield on a featureless landscape against the assembled masses of an entire world?  

Yep, too many high-tiers that could potentially one-shot him in every scenario.  Even if he kills off most of the low-tier stuff, spams epic summons while invisible, spams Time Stop, he just doesn't have enough to kill the high-tiers.  Not to mention the probable speed blitz if his defenses are ever breached.


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## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

~going off of 3.5e~

Do we equate magic with chakra/reiroku/haki/etc?
because if so give that wizard an archmage staff and he basically has unlimited magic.
Pretty sure that there are some epic spells that allow you to channel god-like entities a-la doc.strange.

A lv20 wizard with the right spell setup can atleast get to top-tier in hst
lv40 with all the epic spells can probably solo.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 2, 2015)

Using spell creation and the seeds? Maybe. Using the actual list of provided epic spells? Not likely.

Speed / reactions are also a thing. Confirmed lightning timers via being able to dodge the druid's cloud to ground lightning.

Can't remember if there are any spells that are straight up light beams that allow a reflex save.


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## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

Magic Missile variants always hit 

Also, wish, soul bind, time-stop, etc
hax is where its at.

Epic artefacts are also broken as fuck.


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## Redemption X (Nov 2, 2015)

AngryHeretic said:


> Let's assume he's level 40, and that he can use any spells in the Player Handbook and Epic Level Handbook, and has access to any items there as well (but limited by item slots, spells per day, and such).
> 
> Scenario 1: he fights each of the three verses, one after another, with rest
> Scenario 2: he fights all three verses at once
> ...



Without prep I dont see him winning this, although that's depend whether long-lasting buffs like evasion are considered preps or standard-every day protection.

But important question is: You said we are limited to certain books when it comes to spell... What about feats and prestige classes? Good combination of class and feat will result in* infinite Time Stop* and things like that...


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## shade0180 (Nov 2, 2015)

Is this the spells? or is this from some other game?

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Epic Spell Descriptions
> Animus Blast
> Animus Blizzard
> Contingent Resurrection
> ...







anyway he could probably rape if he uses the bolded effectively..


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## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

Oh right, forgot about mass foul/frog
would be hilarious


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 2, 2015)

Wizard loses he can't deal with that much alone, he doesn't have the resources.
Make the wizard level 1,000 and it still won't matter.


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## Redemption X (Nov 2, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Wizard loses he can't deal with that much alone, he doesn't have the resources.
> Make the wizard level 1,000 and it still won't matter.



IMO its possible as long as he survives first five seconds.  Although hiding/replenishing strenght in some magical refuge might count as losing via BFR.


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## puolakanaho (Nov 2, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> You can specify whatever you want. But you should be clear because not everyone knows D&D.



dont worry saurus, those of us who dont know dnd were already thrown off by the words level 40 wizard....


still, arent every dnd game sorta making their own spells and items?

like i have heard of tales of bows that can shoot 50 000 arrows at once via exploiting, paper scrolls that can hold infinite amount of fireballs and a bear that made himself a count by impersonating a human lord...


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## Expelsword (Nov 2, 2015)

Well, in 4th Edition, Level 40 would be more powerful than all the gods (usual player max is 30)


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## Linkofone (Nov 2, 2015)

He'd solo if rolled a D-6


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## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

Redemption X said:


> IMO its possible as long as he survives first five seconds.  Although hiding/replenishing strenght in some magical refuge might count as losing via BFR.


Wish -> Create Rod of Absorption -> Repeat


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 2, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Wish -> Create Rod of Absorption -> Repeat





> A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
> 
> Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
> Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
> ...





> Absorption
> 
> *This rod acts as a magnet, drawing spells or spell-like abilities into itself. The magic absorbed must be a single-target spell or a ray directed at either the character possessing the rod or her gear. *The rod then nullifies the spell?s effect and stores its potential until the wielder releases this energy in the form of spells of her own. She can instantly detect a spell?s level as the rod absorbs that spell?s energy. Absorption requires no action on the part of the user if the rod is in hand at the time.
> 
> ...


And I mean that he'd run out of spell slots before he could defeat everything if he survives the first 5 seconds.



> ell, in 4th Edition, Level 40 would be more powerful than all the gods (usual player max is 30)


I'm playing a character more powerful than "gods" in 3.5 at level 11.
The gods you see in dnd are pitiful.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 2, 2015)

Basically the wizard isn't optimized enough to cast fist. optimization> levels


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## Redemption X (Nov 2, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> And I mean that he'd run out of spell slots before he could defeat everything if he survives the first 5 seconds.



With certain combinations of feats/prestige classes you will *never *run out of spells.

But if you cant survive first 5 seconds then it's moot. Even Bleach fodders (vice-captains) are now mach 260 so blitz and one-shot is an option.


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## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

damn, didn't remember how much an absorption rod costs
well, Staff of the Magi it is then.

And contingency could possibly work as an anti-blitz defense.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 2, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> damn, didn't remember how much an absorption rod costs
> well, Staff of the Magi it is then.
> 
> And contingency could possibly work as an anti-blitz defense.



Absorption rod wouldn't have worked anyway. Most attacks would be supernatural, not spell like. Also


> If this is willingly lowered, however, the staff can also be used to absorb arcane spell energy directed at its wielder, as a rod of absorption does. Unlike the rod, this staff converts spell levels into charges rather than retaining them as spell energy usable by a spellcaster. *If the staff absorbs enough spell levels to exceed its limit of 50 charges, it explodes as if a retributive strike had been performed (see below). The wielder has no idea how many spell levels are cast at her, for the staff does not communicate this knowledge as a rod of absorption does. (Thus, absorbing spells can be risky.)*
> Retributive Strike
> 
> A staff of the magi can be broken for a retributive strike. _Such an act must be purposeful and declared by the wielder._ All charges in the staff are released in a 30-foot spread. All within 10 feet of the broken staff take hit points of damage equal to 8 times the number of charges in the staff, those between 11 feet and 20 feet away take points equal to 6 times the number of charges, and those 21 feet to 30 feet distant take 4 times the number of charges. A DC 17 Reflex save reduces damage by half.
> ...





> The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).


Contingency would just get him away from the action sure, but he wouldn't be able to go for the kill.

I'd look into artifacts for a chance to win, there is probably a small chance somewhere


Redemption X said:


> With certain combinations of feats/prestige classes you will *never *run out of spells.
> 
> But if you cant survive first 5 seconds then it's moot. Even Bleach fodders (vice-captains) are now mach 260 so blitz and one-shot is an option.



Yeah, but this is just straight wizard unfortunately.


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## Regicide (Nov 2, 2015)

Make it a neutronium golem instead


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## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

Wouldn't Contigency+Time stop be a thing?

edit: not sure what are the rules for epic caster level.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 2, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Wouldn't Contigency+Time stop be a thing?



No, not in itself. You have to do special things for that ahead of time. Like use books outside of


> he can use any spells in the Player Handbook and Epic Level Handbook, and has access to any items there as well



In PF there used to be a way to have a permanent timestop with a 3rd level spell though.

Basically the only way the wizard is doing this is Celerity. Hopefully it's in those two books yeah?


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## strongarm85 (Nov 2, 2015)

Well if he's 40th level he probably has the Wish Spell, and he'd be able to teleport himself into other planes of reality when none of the guys could reach him, or even inside his own pocket dimension that only he can access.

Once inside of his pocket dimension he can create a simulacrum of himself, that possess all of the spells and abilities that the wizard himself possesses. And then that simulacrum can create a simulacrum of itselt, and that simulacrum can create a simulacrum of itself.

The Wizard  could then re-emerge with millions of copies of himself, each armed with reality warping wish spells.

"I wish all the Logia were teleported into Elemental Plane of Water where they will all drown horribly! Go fuck yourselves One Piece!"



"Oh look an Army of Ninjas! Time Stop! Delayed Balst Fireball! DB Fireball! DB Fireball! DB Fireball! DB Fireball!" Just straight up Dio Brando that shit with Fireballs instead of Knives,





"Oh no! Naruto is here using Kyuubi! As a free action I'll  shape change into the Tarrasque! Are they able to hurt the Tarrasque? Then as a free action on my next turn I'll shape change into a Wraith, become incorperal and start pulling people's souls out of their bodies and resurrect them as shades fighting for me! Or maybe a Balor?" Because Shape Change allows  you to become any non-unique creature, including any creature with a gaseous of incorporeal form. 





"Oh look, are people trying to sneak up on me? That's okay, because I have simulacrums casting the Foresight spell, so I can always know before the attack comes and can ambush my ambushes using any of the methods described above before they can attack me!"



"Oh no! I walked into a shitstorm somehow and I this entire country is going to be blown up somehow! I Guess I'll just become Ethereal plane and wait this one out, or travel to any other plane of existence and do the same."



"Oh look the Tailed Beasts are here! Dominate Monster! Go wipe out your friends now!"



"Oh look Dominate Person is only a 5th level spell, I can turn my enemies best fighters into my slaves!"


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## martryn (Nov 2, 2015)

The Contingency idea is solid, but assumes some form of prep time.  

Simulacrum requires resources and 12 hours per casting.  Plus EXP.  Not that he couldn't do it, but he's not making a shit ton of them.  And, again, it assumes that he has access to a place to create them.  With prep time I could give it to a wizard.

I'm assuming, also, an average (lol "average") 40th level wizard.  Which means no created spells, no super cheese optimization, etc.  You could pretty much super-optimize any base class in DnD so that it could solo the HST.  



> "I wish all the Logia were teleported into Elemental Plane of Water where they will all drown horribly! Go fuck yourselves One Piece!"



Wish doesn't work that way.



> "Oh look an Army of Ninjas! Time Stop! Delayed Balst Fireball! DB Fireball! DB Fireball! DB Fireball! DB Fireball!" Just straight up Dio Brando that shit with Fireballs instead of Knives,



High Reflex ninjas vs. save for no damage reflex spells.  Your wizard seems like an idiot.



> "Oh no! Naruto is here using Kyuubi! As a free action I'll shape change into the Tarrasque! Are they able to hurt the Tarrasque? Then as a free action on my next turn I'll shape change into a Wraith, become incorperal and start pulling people's souls out of their bodies and resurrect them as shades fighting for me! Or maybe a Balor?" Because Shape Change allows you to become any non-unique creature, including any creature with a gaseous of incorporeal form.



No, it doesn't.  25 HD limit.  Tarrasque has almost twice that.



> "Oh look the Tailed Beasts are here! Dominate Monster! Go wipe out your friends now!"



Will save.  

Any single target spell is going to be useless because, even with quicken, you're casting two a round.  Even against the weakest verse you've got enough high tiers that can either one-shot a wizard or seriously damage him.  

If the wizard flew invisibly behind a wall of force and cast spells that way, maybe he can do some damage before a strategy is adapted to deal with him.  Every verse has some good counters to a standard DnD wizard, though.

Retreating to another plane and waiting it out doesn't seem like a viable strategy.  Seems like a stalemate to me.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 2, 2015)

martryn said:


> The Contingency idea is solid, but assumes some form of prep time.



He wouldn't require prep time to do this. If you just dropped him into the situation all he would need to do is escape to a pocket dimension where he would have as much time as he needed.



> Simulacrum requires resources and 12 hours per casting.  Plus EXP.  Not that he couldn't do it, but he's not making a shit ton of them.  And, again, it assumes that he has access to a place to create them.  With prep time I could give it to a wizard.



Using a Wish spell, a Wizard can produce the result of any lower level spell instantly, which includes Simulacrum. The Simulacrum then use a Wish spell to create another Simulacrum of the original Wizard. That Simulacrum then use a Wish spell to create another Simulacrum of the original Wizard. ect. This can happen in perpetuity, and require very little casting time, as each simulacrum has only 1 fewer 9th level spell slot when it is created than the original, and a 40th level character can have many 9th level spell slots.




> I'm assuming, also, an average (lol "average") 40th level wizard.  Which means no created spells, no super cheese optimization, etc.  You could pretty much super-optimize any base class in DnD so that it could solo the HST.



There are no "created spells" in these examples. All of them are established spells.




> Wish doesn't work that way.



Yes it does, read the provided link. It is one of the base abilities of the Wish spell. In 3.5 an unwilling target gets a Wisdom Save if they don't want to be transported by a wish. The Spell save DC. against a 40th level wizard would be well into the 60's. And they can each teleport up to 9 such individuals with a single Wish spell. 

Essentially the Logias can only survive that DC by mere chance.



> High Reflex ninjas vs. save for no damage reflex spells.  Your wizard seems like an idiot.



DC is in the 60's even if they make it past one, they wont make it past all of them.




> No, it doesn't.  25 HD limit.  Tarrasque has almost twice that.






> Will save.



The DC would be in the 60's and the odds of the tailed beast making it through multiple saves is nill.




> Any single target spell is going to be useless because, even with quicken, you're casting two a round.  Even against the weakest verse you've got enough high tiers that can either one-shot a wizard or seriously damage him.
> 
> If the wizard flew invisibly behind a wall of force and cast spells that way, maybe he can do some damage before a strategy is adapted to deal with him.  Every verse has some good counters to a standard DnD wizard, though.
> 
> Retreating to another plane and waiting it out doesn't seem like a viable strategy.  Seems like a stalemate to me.



Not if you have a self created army of millions of copies of the same wizard. Practically every ninja in Naruto goes down to Power Word Kill.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 2, 2015)

> No, it doesn't. 25 HD limit. Tarrasque has almost twice that.


Welcome to the druids only club because because fuck you.
A Tarrasque would be a bad idea anyway. It can certainly die in 3.5 after all.
Not like PF.


> He wouldn't require prep time to do this. If you just dropped him into the situation all he would need to do is escape to a pocket dimension where he would have as much time as he needed.


a standard action.
Also there are characters who could give chase, characters in Naruto, Bleach possibly.


> Using a Wish spell, a Wizard can produce the result of any lower level spell *instantly*



Casting Time: 1 standard action, not instant.



> against a 40th level wizard would be well into the 60's.


Sounds like it's rather easy to pass if it's only in the 60's.


> DC is in the 60's even if they make it past one, they wont make it past all of them.


 Your wizard seems like an idiot.


> The DC would be in the 60's and the odds of the tailed beast making it through multiple saves is nill.


 I'd say it's rather high, though who is to say any dominate spells would work to begin with.


> Not if you have a self created army of millions of copies of the same wizard. Practically every ninja in Naruto goes down to Power Word Kill.


Wizard loses by BFR if he does that. Also you'll lose a slot per copy far as wish goes, it has a limit.
Wizard has to cast wish 28,800 times to get 28,800 clones in a day even assuming the clones also cast wish, the number is too high and the time too long. Not happening. 
Also try issuing orders to several million yous and see how it goes.
You actually have to come up with a plan to win this prepless.
Wizards are like batman.


> Any creature that currently has 101 or more hit points is unaffected by power word kill.


Wow power word kill huh, spooky


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## shade0180 (Nov 2, 2015)

> Wizard loses by BFR if he does that



Technically he doesn't considering he can return whenever he wants..

You only loses Via BFR if you can't return to the battlefield...



> The DC would be in the 60's



Anyway what does this means? anyone want to explain??


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## strongarm85 (Nov 2, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> a standard action.
> Also there are characters who could give chase, characters in Naruto, Bleach possibly.



Not really, he could move himself to any plane of existence in the multiverse, including a pocket dimension that only he could access.



> Casting Time: 1 standard action, not instant.



1 Standard action is 5 seconds, which is much less than the 12 hours it takes to cast simulacrum typically.


> Sounds like it's rather easy to pass if it's only in the 60's.
> Your wizard seems like an idiot.



No you don't get it, the Spell Save DC is high enough that the only way succeed the check would be a natural 20.

They have a 5% chance of dodging 1 fireball. Now dodge 5 of them at once.  The odds of you dodging 5 DB fireballs is along the lines of  .00003125% No, those guys are all dead. 



> I'd say it's rather high, though who is to say any dominate spells would work to begin with.
> 
> Wizard loses by BFR if he does that. Also you'll lose a slot per copy far as wish goes, it has a limit.
> Wizard has to cast wish 28,800 times to get 28,800 clones even assuming the clones also cast wish, the number is too high and the time too long. Not happening.
> ...



1. It isn't a BFR because the Wizard can always come back to the plane of existence and rejoin the fight at any point.

2. Here is how the Simulacrum Factory works.

Our 40th level wizard uses 1 of his 9th level spells to cast Simulacrum on himself. 

This simulacrum is an exact copy of the original wizard, and has all of his: abilities, accumulated knowledge, and Spell slots. It is however missing 1 level 9 spell slot, which was the slot that original wizard used to create the Simulacrum.

Now, the 1st simulacrum creates another simulacrum, but instead of making a simulacrum of itself, it makes a simulacrum of the original Wizard. 

The second simulacrum is only missing the 9th level spell slot that the Original wizard used cast Wish to create the first Simulacrum.

What you've done is created an infinite loop where the Simulacrums can continually cast the Wish spell to create more copies of the original Wizard, which each copy having the same spell casting ability of the original minus only 1 spell slot.

They can loop can be repeated exponentially with each new simulacrum creating a new simulacrum of the original wizard, until the Wizard has a million copies of himself.

You can do this this in 3.5 Rules as Written.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 2, 2015)

> Not really, he could move himself to any plane of existence in the multiverse, including a pocket dimension that only he could access.


which takes a standard action to do.


> 1 Standard action is 5 seconds


That's too long still. Also a round is 6 seconds. A standard action should take 3 since it is divided up into a move and standard.


> Anyway what does this means? anyone want to explain??


game mechanics.


> No you don't get it, the Spell Save DC is high enough that the only way succeed the check would be a natural 20.


 HAHHAHAHA, whewwww. Game mechanics.
Anyway it isn't that high. The ninja's alone are going to be epic themselves in a dnd setting.
In fact almost every opponent here is epic. The wizard gets blitzed.


> You can do this this in 3.5 Rules as Written.


And then the DM stabs you with a knife.
It's going to take you weeks to even do that.
You couldn't do that in a DnD game because it's not feasible, the universe at large would stop you before you could.


> They have a 5% chance of dodging 1 fireball. Now dodge 5 of them at once. The odds of you dodging 5 DB fireballs is along the lines of .00003125% No, those guys are all dead.


 Under that logic.
"Hey wizard, make several hundred will saves at the start of the round." Wizard fails.


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## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Anyway what does this means? anyone want to explain??


In 3.5e D&D various effects could be resisted with saving throws.

Fortitude save is against physical strain/poison like effects. The tougher the character the higher its fortitude save score.

Reflex save is for dodging attacks, based on dexterity/agility.

Will save is for metal resistance.

DC= the level of difficulty an ability has. if it's say 20 then you need to score 20 or higher to make the save. lv20 character typically have dc in the 30-40ish range.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 2, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> which takes a standard action to do.



That's too long still. Also a round is 6 seconds. A standard action should take 3 since it is divided up into a move and standard.
[/quote]

That's not how actions work.



> game mechanics.
> HAHHAHAHA, whewwww. Game mechanics.
> Anyway it isn't that high. The ninja's alone are going to be epic themselves in a dnd setting.
> In fact almost every opponent here is epic. The wizard gets blitzed.



You think almost all the characters in Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece would be "EPIC LEVEL CHARACTERS!"

That is both ridiculous AND WRONG. The Avatars of MOST DIETIES in Dungeons and Dragons would only around 25 to 30. 



> And then the DM stabs you with a knife.
> It's going to take you weeks to even do that.
> You couldn't do that in a DnD game because it's not feasible, the universe at large would stop you before you could.
> Under that logic.
> "Hey wizard, make several hundred will saves at the start of the round." Wizard fails.



1. The DM doesn't exist.

2. It only takes a standard action to cast a Wish, so instead of taking months it takes hours.

3. First, you can do that in D&D as a level 40 Wizard because you would be more powerful than the Avatars of Gods that could try to stop you. 

Second, none of the participants in this fight would be able to stop this chain. 

Third, even if it did take a while to do all this, Wizards  regain all of their lost spell slots on a long run, which would make the Wizard even more effective at  beating down the HST.


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## shade0180 (Nov 2, 2015)

So why the fuck are you guys using game mechanics..

like Dice throw.. - Right because ninja will throw a dice before fighting
Movement/ action points - <Is this a chess match???>
DC - I still don't understand why this is even being mentioned here
Agility - Are you guys role playing??
.. in this thread as if those numbers means any shit in OBD.. or any Battledome at all...



Seriously those numbers aren't any different from games having 999 atk/def/HP/MP.... we don't use them in Battledomes because those value are meaningless


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## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

Actually avatars of gods have at least a couple of divine ranks themselves and are lesser-deity lvl in their own right.


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## Regicide (Nov 2, 2015)

Some of that stuff is important within the context of powerscaling and whatnot, I suppose


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## strongarm85 (Nov 2, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> So why the fuck are you guys using game mechanics..
> 
> like Dice throw.. - Right because ninja will throw a dice before fighting
> Movement/ action points - <Is this a chess match???>
> ...



So a reflex save represents your character's ability to dodge things for example. If The DC is 50 and your save is 1d20+10 or 11 (which is where you would end up at around level 20) then you literally cannot pass the save difficulty.



Deer Lord said:


> Actually avatars of gods have at least a couple of divine ranks themselves and are lesser-deity lvl in their own right.



Yes, and a level 40 character is still more  powerful than a lesser deity. Besides if the Wizard is level 40 he's probably pretty close to ascending to God hood himself. 

A lot of people have difficulty trying to figure out how to stat a non D&D character in D&D to figure out what would be an equivalent build, and a lot of times they overestimate how powerful a character should be. 

To be honest, you could make a reasonable attempt at making Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star, and the character would only need to be about level 17 to pull it off.

We're talking about a character here who is not only in the most powerful class, but is more than twice the level he would ever need to be to win this fight.

You notice all those spells I noted in my Breakdown. those are all 9th level spells and lower. If this Wizard is level 40, he has epic level spells that are far more powerful than the listed spells I've mentioned so far.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 2, 2015)

> That's not how actions work.


Alright then tell me how they do. Please go ahead.





> You think almost all the characters in Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece would be "EPIC LEVEL CHARACTERS!"
> 
> That is both ridiculous AND WRONG. The Avatars of MOST DIETIES in Dungeons and Dragons would only around 25 to 30.


The avatars of all dieties in dnd I've seen are weak as fuck.
That includes some of the gods. They are just that in name really.

Also I changed my mind, all of  the characters the wizard is fighting are far beyond epic in a dnd context.
You're looking at characters the wizard has to face having str scores of 130 at least based on calculations.


> 3. First, you can do that in D&D as a level 40 Wizard because you would be more powerful than the Avatars of Gods that could try to stop you.


Who said they would be sending avatars. Level 10 characters could hurt an avatar greatly.


> Second, none of the participants in this fight would be able to stop this chain.


Sasuke, also the wizard fails due to having to make a few hundred will saves at the start because you're insisting on game mechanics.


Regicide said:


> Some of that stuff is important within the context of powerscaling and whatnot, I suppose



str, and actions have solid amounts of time in each.
stuff that isn't game mechanics.
Strongarm is actually trying to use game mechanics to win the argument.


strongarm85 said:


> You notice all those spells I noted in my Breakdown. those are all 9th level spells and lower. If this Wizard is level 40, he has epic level spells that are far more powerful than the listed spells I've mentioned so far.



epic spells aren't impressive and are mostly custom made if so.


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## shade0180 (Nov 2, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> So a reflex save represents your character's ability to dodge things for example. If The DC is 50 and your save is 1d20+10 or 11 (which is where you would end up at around level 20) then you literally cannot pass the save difficulty.



And that means anything in a fight? no seriously how do you even quantify that shit into real world stats...  

This whole thing is already crap talk at this point



> Yes, and a level 40 character is still more  powerful than a lesser deity. Besides if the Wizard is level 40 he's probably pretty close to ascending to God hood himself.
> 
> A lot of people have difficulty trying to figure out how to stat a non D&D character in D&D to figure out what would be an equivalent build, and a lot of times they overestimate how powerful a character should be.
> 
> ...



Deity and Gods aren't equal to each other and it depends on what media they came from.... you can have a god as strong as my Pinky and a human that can destroy a whole galaxy... seriously how are you comparing this shit??


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## Regicide (Nov 2, 2015)

I'm pretty sure he's talkibg about in-universe shit in regards to gods and deities there


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## strongarm85 (Nov 2, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> The avatars of all dieties in dnd I've seen are weak as fuck.
> That includes some of the gods. They are just that in name really.
> 
> Also I changed my mind, all of  the characters the wizard is fighting are far beyond epic in a dnd context.
> ...



Your literally just pulling stuff out of your ass at this point. 

There is no scenario where the Wizard has to make hundreds of Will saves for using this tactic because there is no single effect what would cause the Wizard to make a Will Save. He's is doing this by casting the wish spell, which does not require a Wisdom save if you use it to cast one of it's base effects, which in this case is casting a lower level spell.

You only have to make will saves if your using the Wish spell for effects other than those listed by the base ability. You would only need to use 1 will save for each Will save that goes beyond the base abilities of the spell, and only the simulacrum casting the wish spell would be required to make the save to cast the spell, not all of the Simulacrums, because each simulacrum has can act independently.

So here we are, casting reality warping magic spells with an army of level 40 wizards. 

And the best part is, the original wizard would never need to expose himself to danger.

With one action he can protect himself his first action in such a way that nobody from the entire HST could even hurt him.

I haven't even gone into all the other spells the Wizard could cast to protect  himself. a 9th level Wizard could protect himself with a Wall of Force Spell and just stand behind it and give everyone on the other side the finger because no one in the HST would have the ability to pass through it.

Besides, you were the one who brought up everyone making agility saves to make avoid damage from Fireballs. If anybody here is bringing in Game mechanics it's you.


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## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

> The avatars of all dieties in dnd I've seen are weak as fuck.
> That includes some of the gods. They are just that in name really


Not sure what you're talking about, cause even the weakest avatars in _Deities & Demigods_ are equivalent to character over level 35.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 2, 2015)

Let me explain this Unloosing Ranger. Not only are most Naruto Character NOT EPIC LEVEL. Most of them are in the High teens in terms of character levels, if you wanted to make them characters in D&D. The only Epic level character from the entire Naruto Franchise would be Kaguya, maybe, but even she would only be around a CR 24.

Naruto and Sasuke would only need to be around level 15 or so to replicate most of their feats. They have some other spell like ablities, but their actual levels wouldn't need in the Epic levels at all to tell their stories.

And that fits how D&D sets their teirs up too. A level 10 to 15 Characters are typically involved in quests to save the world they live in.

Level 16 to 20 characters typically go an adventures that span multiple planes off existence!

A level 40 Character though?

A level 40 character  would be trying doing things like, ascend to God Hood, or banishing evil gods into the Abyss, or trying to tip the balance in the blood wars.

The Wizard would be able to do things like make himself invisible, incorporeal, constantly shifting between dimension. A wizard of this level would be able to easily open a permanent teleportation Circle to the Abyss and allow Demon lords and Demons overrun the entire plane of existence without him needing to lift a finger, all while simultaneously teleporting to a safe plane of existence where nobody from the HST could ever reach him, and just wait it out until the Demons win.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 2, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> Let me explain this Unloosing Ranger. Not only are most Naruto Character NOT EPIC LEVEL. Most of them are in the High teens in terms of character levels, if you wanted to make them characters in D&D. The only Epic level character from the entire Naruto Franchise would be Kaguya, maybe, but even she would only be around a CR 24.
> 
> Naruto and Sasuke would only need to be around level 15 or so to replicate most of their feats. They have some other spell like ablities, but their actual levels wouldn't need in the Epic levels at all to tell their stories.
> 
> ...


I don't think this guy gets it. 





Deer Lord said:


> Not sure what you're talking about, cause even the weakest avatars in _Deities & Demigods_ are equivalent to character over level 35.



They are also not optimized in the least and the stat scores are bad.
Bahamut for instance, a god.


> Initiative:
> +4 (Improved Initiative)
> Abilities:
> Str 53, Dex 10, Con 39, Int 35, Wis 36, Cha 35.


That book is widely regarded as having weak gods.


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## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

I highly doubt even a well optimized lv10 can put a dent on an avatar with all the shit ton of immunities they get.

But that besides this thread's point, so let's leave it at that.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 2, 2015)

Oh pardon me, I forgot the DC/marvel bonus round.
Superman punches him into atoms and Doctor mother fucking Strange pimpslaps the wizard.


> I highly doubt even a well optimized lv10 can put a dent on an avatar with all the shit ton of immunities they get.
> 
> But that besides this thread's point, so let leave it at that.


Fun fact, it's possible to have 15 full attacks in a round.

Kaguya, CR24, strongarm is a real laugh you know. just avoiding all the tough questions and making things up. Tarrasque is CR 20 in 3.5 and it can be killed by a party of level 1 adventurers with rather mundane means. Heck I'm already fighting CR 20's at level 11, they aren't that strong.
Characters in the hst have well established stats.
That alone makes it impossible for the wizard.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 2, 2015)

Potential relavistic reactions:

 - Allows a reflex save for half, so almost every D&D character of level 4+ has some ability to react to it.

The evasion ability lets someone -completely- avoid this burst of sunlight if successful.



Reflex against some of these, which specifically say "beams of light."



You can probably get some kind of reaction / movement speed from the fact that a D&D character can react to, and dodge to some degree, a beam or burst of light from 5 feet away.


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## shade0180 (Nov 2, 2015)

Wouldn't both of those count as magic light?  we usually don't count magic light as real light. or we would have LS Kizaru or some other shit. 

also 

>Sunstone<


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## Katsuargi (Nov 3, 2015)

It kinda sorta specifically says "Ray of Light"

There are a bunch of other random magical beam effects, but this is very specifically says light.

I've got no idea how you'd get clearer than that.

Well, The DMG also has a laser rifle listed as possible equipment, so D&D characters can dodge laser weapons.


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## martryn (Nov 3, 2015)

Simulacrum / Wish cheese is stupid, and logically doesn't work or else every campaign world would have ended a long time ago by the first wizard to have thought of it.  You can use a lot of different logical arguments to say it won't work.

1. The way Simulacrum is worded says it can't get more powerful.  Logically it doesn't have EXP to spend to cast a Wish spell because it's just an illusion, and therefore a Simulacrum can't cast Wish.  This is the strongest argument, in my opinion. 

2.  You can argue that a Simulacrum is similar to a summoned creature.  A summoned creature can't summon other creatures.  Therefore a Simulacrum can't cast another Simulacrum.

3.  A Simulacrum casting Wish is expending 5,000 XP, and now can't duplicate the original caster because he has more than twice the HD as the Simulacrum.  

Needless to say, this is an issue of RAW vs. RAI.  No _good_ DM would ever allow this nonsense, and so no "average" 40th level Wizard would be capable of it.

As for the levels of various characters in Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, etc...

The high tiers in One Piece, based on feats and what they're capable of surviving, are certainly epic level.  I'm not big into the Battledome, but look into Zoro's reaction times and strength and compare that to a DnD character.  He's one-shotted what certainly looks like a red dragon.  And a fucking massive one at that.  In terms of ability scores, his STR is likely in the high 60's, low 70's.  To say that he's not epic level is ridiculous.  

And Zoro is one example.  And he's not even considered near the top tier, I don't think.  By power scaling, the elite of the elite of One Piece would be near the level of the wizard in question if not much higher.  To claim that these characters would have difficulty in passing saves (a 5% chance?) is absurd, not to mention the number of enemies that would win initiative and speed blitz.  

The only way the wizard can win is through cheese, and if that shit is allowed on the wizard's side but not on the HST side, this thread is fucking retarded.  Can you think of the crazy fucking combos that you could come up with if the HST characters could work together?  



> Kaguya, CR24, strongarm is a real laugh you know. just avoiding all the tough questions and making things up. Tarrasque is CR 20 in 3.5 and it can be killed by a party of level 1 adventurers with rather mundane means. Heck I'm already fighting CR 20's at level 11, they aren't that strong.



Oh, please, tell us more about your DnD characters, nerd tough guy.


----------



## Katsuargi (Nov 3, 2015)

DC's and such are useless when dealing with cross fictional stuff. At best, we can use them -in- universe to get a general idea of character standings. IE, A level 9 spell, at minimum, has a DC of 23. That means assuming average 10 stats across the board and a minimum save progression any character of level 12 or greater can attempt to resist it with something other than luck (crit).

Dubious, but you can get some degree of powerscaling for hax, dc, etc. in verse from those sorts of things.


As far as hax effecting other verses, you have to look at whatever the strongest thing -in verse- that said hax can effect.


----------



## shade0180 (Nov 3, 2015)

Katsuargi said:


> It kinda sorta specifically says "Ray of Light"


It isn't just normal ray of light though

This is what it said...



> seven shimmering,* intertwined, multicolored* beams of light



Bolded killed your argument...


----------



## Katsuargi (Nov 3, 2015)

What about the laser rifles in the DMG and thus the fact people can dodge laser rifles? 

Also, this thread is probably worth posting here. 

This has been done before and I forgot. Lol.


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## shade0180 (Nov 3, 2015)

> What about the laser rifles in the DMG and thus the fact people can dodge laser rifles?



Well this definitely would give them relativistic to LS speed and possibly FTL speed depending on how they dodge them..


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## AngryHeretic (Nov 3, 2015)

martryn said:
			
		

> The only way the wizard can win is through cheese, and if that shit is allowed on the wizard's side but not on the HST side, this thread is fucking retarded. Can you think of the crazy fucking combos that you could come up with if the HST characters could work together?



TBH, I was expecting plenty of cheese from the wizard, but no, cheese is allowed on HST's side as well. Go nuts. Can they out-cheese an epic-level D&D wizard?



Katsuargi said:


> This has been done before and I forgot. Lol.



But the wizard is level 40 now, instead of level 20. So it's pretty much a completely different thread.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 3, 2015)

The problem is, most of the D&D cheese exists at the levels people actually play and that there's a million sources for, IE, 1-20.

Epic level is theoretically more powerful, but most of it's cheese lays in the spell creation.

So you get some bigger numbers on things that use numbers like transmutations.

The last thread pretty clearly demonstrated that anyone that isn't Kaguya gets nuked, haxed, planedshifted, etc.

The real question is if anything in standard level 21-40 wizard's playbook lets him deal with Kaguya.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 3, 2015)

Lets see. After doing the standard time stop, bail out of the dimension cheese, you can pop this a few times:



Level 40 has a ton of levels they can ditch to make clones with.

Make some spies / assassins / etc:



Maybe do the Ice Assassin trick, except hiding inside peoples dreams instead of a different Realm. I doubt Kaguya can jump into dreams as it doesn't seem like an actual dimension:



Hilarious for anyone that can't fly:






Basically, as far as I can tell, the best bet is still the ice assassin trick, with hiding inside dreams instead of other dimensions so Kaguya can't actually follow the Wizard this time, unlike his lower level incarnation.

Wizard pulls his shenanigans and then hides in dreams. Every 8 hours later, unless I can find a way to speed it up, 19 Kaguya's pop out to murderface the HST.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 3, 2015)

martryn said:


> Simulacrum / Wish cheese is stupid, and logically doesn't work or else every campaign world would have ended a long time ago by the first wizard to have thought of it.  You can use a lot of different logical arguments to say it won't work.
> 
> 1. The way Simulacrum is worded says it can't get more powerful.  Logically it doesn't have EXP to spend to cast a Wish spell because it's just an illusion, and therefore a Simulacrum can't cast Wish.  This is the strongest argument, in my opinion.
> 
> ...



A 40th level wizard Likely has the Epic Feat "Askew Components". Askew components allows you to cast spells with any components, and the experience point cost to cast a spell is part of a spell's components.

So a 40th level wizard not have to spend its experience points to cast Wish in the first place.

Burn your nerd card, because...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiXNUaSjXRY[/YOUTUBE]


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## strongarm85 (Nov 3, 2015)

Katsuargi said:


> The real question is if anything in standard level 21-40 wizard's playbook lets him deal with Kaguya.



How about Time Stop... Dominate Person during stopped time... Time resumes and Kaguya now works for him.

I don't think you guys understand just how absurd a level 40 wizard is. The most powerful Wizard in D&D lore is Elminster, who was stated in 3rd edition as a level 35 character, and only 29 of his levels was in Wizard stuff.

A level 40 Wizard would be far more powerful than Elminster.


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## Regicide (Nov 3, 2015)

Isn't timestop actually just speeding up the user until it seems like time is stopped or something?


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## Katsuargi (Nov 3, 2015)

"This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds."

Yeah. But seeing as D&D characters can dodge lasers from a minimum of 1-9 feet...


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## strongarm85 (Nov 3, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Isn't timestop actually just speeding up the user until it seems like time is stopped or something?



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NnyVc8r2SM[/YOUTUBE]

This is a pretty close analog for what using Timestop is like in D&D.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 3, 2015)

Right. But if D&D characters had shit combat / reaction speeds, mudanes would look like that but characters that way out speed them would still kick their asses.

The fact that they're high relativistic means you have to grab MFTL characters to lulz the time "stop".


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## strongarm85 (Nov 3, 2015)

Lets not forget that a 40th level Wizard could just Planeshift massive threats into the fight from other Planes of Existence. 

An Epic Level Wizard could create a permanent teleportation circle under a Gargantuan sized Rock that stopped directly 10 feet higher than of the rock's origin point, and surround the whole thing with a Wall of Force to keep anyone from tampering with it. While that's happening the wizard can just sit back in an alternate dimension for a few days and let Gravity do the work. While in the other dimension he can just decide to let the Wall of Force down, and close the teleportation circle and shatter the continent into tiny pieces.


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## shade0180 (Nov 3, 2015)

how big is that giant rock? 

Also gravity won't even harm fodders here....

Also continent level isn't going to be enough to kill or even damage the top tier here..


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 3, 2015)

martryn said:


> Oh, please, tell us more about your DnD characters, nerd tough guy.


I'll tell you about an idiot thinking CR matters at all.


shade0180 said:


> Well this definitely would give them relativistic to LS speed and possibly FTL speed depending on how they dodge them..


Aim dodging can be argued there is little to no context.



Katsuargi said:


> Right. But if D&D characters had shit combat / reaction speeds, mudanes would look like that but characters that way out speed them would still kick their asses.
> 
> The fact that they're high relativistic means you have to grab MFTL characters to lulz the time "stop".



You can dodge lasers at level 1 if we use spells because of the 20 autosuccess mechanic which doesn't work for debating. The dodging is also dependent on DC from the wizard. If truly a constant light speed ray is being produced it'd be consistant. The character could dodge and then be unable to dodge the next time because reasons. Results are wildly inconsistent to be used as a feat.

editions older than 3 have an actual time stop.


strongarm85 said:


> An Epic Level Wizard could create a permanent teleportation circle under a Gargantuan sized Rock that stopped directly 10 feet higher than of the rock's origin point, and surround the whole thing with a Wall of Force to keep anyone from tampering with it. While that's happening the wizard can just sit back in an alternate dimension for a few days and let Gravity do the work. While in the other dimension he can just decide to let the Wall of Force down, and close the teleportation circle and shatter the continent into tiny pieces.



It wouldn't do anything, that's a terrible plan.
A 16 tons?125 ton rock wouldn't do anything here even at terminal velocity.


> You create a circle on the floor or other *horizontal surface* that teleports, *as greater teleport*, *any creature* who stands on it to a designated spot. Once you designate the destination for the circle, you can?t change it.





> *greater teleport:*This spell functions like teleport





> Teleport: You can bring along objects as long *as their weight doesn?t exceed your maximum load.*



As a note the jump from level 20 to level 40 isn't that big.


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## Redemption X (Nov 3, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> How about Time Stop... Dominate Person during stopped time... Time resumes and Kaguya now works for him.
> 
> I don't think you guys understand just how absurd a level 40 wizard is. The most powerful Wizard in D&D lore is Elminster, who was stated in 3rd edition as a level 35 character, and only 29 of his levels was in Wizard stuff.
> 
> A level 40 Wizard would be far more powerful than Elminster.



Elminster is not even close to being strongest. Just saying...


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## strongarm85 (Nov 4, 2015)

I've yet to see a convincing argument about how any of these verses are putting down a level 40 Wizard, but I can keep coming up with ways for the Wizard to win.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 4, 2015)

As established in the previous thread, a level 20 Wizard can reliably handle the HST beside Kaguya.

And unless I'm overlooking something, shifting into the dream world and pumping out Kaguya ice assassins will take her out.

The only thing that was stopping the level 20 Wizard from doing the same thing was he could only do normal dimension hoping, so Kaguya could follow. Jumping into dreams is a bit more esoteric.


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## Redemption X (Nov 4, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> I've yet to see a convincing argument about how any of these verses are putting down a level 40 Wizard, but I can keep coming up with ways for the Wizard to win.





strongarm85 said:


> I've yet to see a convincing argument about how any of these verses are putting down a level 40 Wizard, but I can keep coming up with ways for the Wizard to win.



If Unlosing Ranger's arguments arent convincing then I dont know what is... 

I actually agree that *40 lvl player* made wizard is capable of taking down HST, but some of your claims are just wrong.

First of all, like Ranger said majority of HST cast is above CR 20.  Why? Because your average 20 level character isnt fan-made wizard capable of shattering continents, but some wall-level barely superhuman warrior like Drizzt, stronger golem or giant (mountain giant with CR26), or poorly made wizard from hand book with spell (prepared) like meteor swarm, greater fireball and so on. 

Since hit points are tied with level/hit dice and level/hit dice are connected with saving throws, HST top-tiers with their thousands of hp (country level durability) should have some ridicolous saving throws. 

To make it clear - this 40 level wizard of yours is most likely capable of soloing majority of his own verse, so he cant be treated like your standard epic level character.



Also for a solution to beat this guy. What do you (and other people) think of Almighty Ychwach. His ability is often considered NLF and with a good reason to do so, but we cant simply ignore it and act like it doesnt exist.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 4, 2015)

I'm probably going to say hiding somewhere (another dimension. Inside whatever dreams are. Etc) and making ice clones.

Because I'm too lazy to look up a less cheesy answer that every generic wizard with a non-specific build has access to for higher level opponents.


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## martryn (Nov 4, 2015)

> A 40th level wizard Likely has the Epic Feat "Askew Components". Askew components allows you to cast spells with any components, and the experience point cost to cast a spell is part of a spell's components.
> 
> So a 40th level wizard not have to spend its experience points to cast Wish in the first place.
> 
> Burn your nerd card, because..



I'm sorry?  Is that some bullshit splat book somewhere?  Because I see the feat Ignore Material Component.  But the feat itself says _material_.  



> Dominate Person during stopped time... Time resumes and Kaguya now works for him.



Will save.  Or outright immunity.  



> Yeah. But seeing as D&D characters can dodge lasers from a minimum of 1-9 feet...



Context.  They can't dodge lasers.  If anything, they can dodge out of the way before the spell is released.  Don't apply your bullshit battledome logic to DnD.

Or this:


> Aim dodging can be argued there is little to no context.





> I've yet to see a convincing argument about how any of these verses are putting down a level 40 Wizard, but I can keep coming up with ways for the Wizard to win.



Aizen draws his sword.  Welcome to illusion central, bitch.  I'm not a huge Bleach fan and haven't followed it in years, but I don't remember anyone making that Will save, so I guess there is no save.  

I'll argue that a min-maxed, optimized level 40 wizard full of cheese can solo almost anything, but I thought we were using a standard level 40 wizard as presented, in, say, the epic level handbook as an example character.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 4, 2015)

There isn't anything "Standard" about a level 40 Wizard. 

Here is an example of a Canon 12th level spell.



> When cast, necromantic singularity created a temporary link between the Prime Material Plane, the Weave, and the Negative Energy Plane. The negative energy passed from the Negative to the Prime was strong enough to slay dozens, if not hundreds, of victims near the point of opening. With the collapse of the Weave, no reports of the spell being cast have been made.



Oh look, a spell that a temporary links 2 different planes of reality, by manipulating the fabric that holds the multiverse together, so that an area temporarily fills with so much Negative Energy (literally Death Energy) that it kills dozens if not hundreds of people.

This hypothetical would be able to cast 18th level spells. At 40th level as a Wizard, full on Mad Jim Jasper's style Reality Warping magic is not out of the question.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 4, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> At 40th level as a Wizard, full on Mad Jim Jasper's style Reality Warping magic is not out of the question.





Plague said:


> Depends on who goes first really.
> 
> EDIT: Actually, after giving it some more thought, it really depends on what spells the guy had prepared and how many were active on him when the battled begins.
> 
> ...


The stats should be epic levels for most characters in one area or another, especially dex. Highest tiers are higher than the wizard.
I doubt an epic power word kill would kill anything besides actual genin or fodder plus it's single target last I checked.
And you are right it does depend on who goes first, around level 20 it is called *rocket tag*. One shots abound. A level 20 can kill a level 40 in one shot just as easily as a level 40 can.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 4, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> The stats should be epic levels for most characters in one area or another, especially dex. Highest tiers are higher than the wizard.
> I doubt an epic power word kill would kill anything besides actual genin or fodder plus it's single target last I checked.
> And you are right it does depend on who goes first, around level 20 it is called *rocket tag*. One shots abound. A level 20 can kill a level 40 in one shot just as easily as a level 40 can.



That is very wrong. A level 40 Wizard can probably beat any spell that a level 20 Wizard could throw at him with a Counterspell. Going first or second doesn't matter.

A level 20 on the other hand probably wouldn't be able to Counterspell spells fired off by the level 40 wizard.

That also just ignores a whole cadre of defensive spells that make it nearly impossible to even land a hit on a Wizard.

Also most of the characters in Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece would not be epic level characters in a D&D setting. Most of the high tier characters would be in the mid teens in terms of levels.

It's called "Clearly you've never played a Wizard before."


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 4, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> That is very wrong. A level 40 Wizard can probably beat any spell that a level 20 Wizard could throw at him with a Counterspell. Going first or second doesn't matter.
> 
> A level 20 on the other hand probably wouldn't be able to Counterspell spells fired off by the level 40 wizard.


Who said he'd be using things that could be counterspelled or that I was talking about another wizard. 


strongarm85 said:


> That also just ignores a whole cadre of defensive spells that make it nearly impossible to even land a hit on a Wizard.
> 
> Also most of the characters in Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece would not be epic level characters in a D&D setting. Most of the high tier characters would be in the mid teens in terms of levels.
> 
> It's called "Clearly you've never played a Wizard before."


That's nice dear.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 4, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Who said he'd be using things that could be counterspelled or that I was talking about another wizard.



How about Spellturning? That works on abilities that aren't spells.

How about Foresight so that the wizard is never caught by surprise and is always prepared. People on this thread be criticizing Paranoid Wizards for always having their defensive spells up and never realistically having them. If a Wizard casts Foresight everyday he knows ahead of time when threats are going to come his way in advanced and be prepared in advanced. And for a level 40 Wizard, that's just a single low level spell slot and he knows in advanced every single threat that he will face for the whole day.

So if the Wizard does decide to just go chill in a Pocket Dimension, he's going to know in advance if any of the people he's fighting are going to be capable of following him to that dimension.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 4, 2015)

Probably because knowing the future of yourself being murdered horribly isn't all that useful.


strongarm85 said:


> How about Spellturning? That works on abilities that aren't spells.





> Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster.


Nope, not really.


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## Plague (Nov 4, 2015)

There are some pretty broken techniques in the HST, particularly Bleach. And I don't think there are any defense against some of them. 

The Lv 40 Wizards only chance is to have up some sort of defensive blanket of spells prior, which we can only speculate if he has or not.

It is sensible to have up Foresight at all times, but that doesn't mean he will.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 5, 2015)

Plague said:


> There are some pretty broken techniques in the HST, particularly Bleach. And I don't think there are any defense against some of them.
> 
> The Lv 40 Wizards only chance is to have up some sort of defensive blanket of spells prior, which we can only speculate if he has or not.
> 
> It is sensible to have up Foresight at all times, but that doesn't mean he will.



1. Wizards are rarely caught unprepared.

2. A 40th level Wizard probably has magical items that cast those defensive spells for him automatically every day anyways.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 5, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> 1. Wizards are rarely caught unprepared.
> 
> 2. A 40th level Wizard probably has magical items that cast those defensive spells for him automatically every day anyways.



1.Bullshit

2. Better start listing them items then buddy.


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## shade0180 (Nov 5, 2015)

DC wise how strong is a level 20/40 wizard anyway??



Seriously the only advantage the wizard had that was mentioned in this whole thread is time stop, no one has mentioned how the wizard would deal any damage to anyone on HST... the only abilities strongarm kept using mentioning are self BFR and replication. which won't deal any damage to anyone that matters in HST.. and the attack that was mentioned.. the ones mention which involved Gravity and a giant rock are not even going to matter here...........


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## Katsuargi (Nov 6, 2015)

As I've mentioned: Ice assassin. 

TLDR: Lets you make a clone of the target, with all of it's abilities and an overwhelming desire to kill the original.


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## shade0180 (Nov 6, 2015)

> Lets you make a clone of the target, with all of it's abilities and an overwhelming desire to kill the original.



Wouldn't that fall under NLF?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 6, 2015)

It also requires you to get the component from the person you are copying.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 6, 2015)

Nah. You can use polymorph self to turn yourself physically into whoever you want. By raw, this qualifies part of you to use for the spell.

And yeah, it's totally a NFL. You can only do this up to the strongest thing it would work on in D&D.

Which is Pun-Pun.

Who I believe has been mentioned to be Gold Saint level at some point.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 6, 2015)

Katsuargi said:


> Nah. You can use polymorph self to turn yourself physically into whoever you want. By raw, this qualifies part of you to use for the spell.
> 
> And yeah, it's totally a NFL. You can only do this up to the strongest thing it would work on in D&D.
> 
> ...



Pun-Pun doesn't exist and doesn't actually work, he's never been actually played.
Polymorph self wouldn't work on pun pun anyway. You'd just be ice assassinating yourself not the target too.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 6, 2015)

Nah. By raw, at least for polymorph any, you are the other creature. You're arguing RAI, rules as intended. That's going by author intent and thus not something we use for vs. battles. By RAW, it works.

By RAW, Pun Pun works.

Thus, Pun Pun can exist in D&D.

And if Pun Pun can exist, then Ice Assassin cheese works on him.

Thus we get power scaling on ice assassin up to Pun Pun.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 6, 2015)

Katsuargi said:


> Nah. By raw, at least for polymorph any, you are the other creature. You're arguing RAI, rules as intended. That's going by author intent and thus not something we use for vs. battles. By RAW, it works.
> 
> By RAW, Pun Pun works.
> 
> ...



No, he can't exist by RAW either because the wizard is only allowed access to two books. He also doesn't work even if that wasn't the case, it's based on faulty assumptions.

Too many moving parts AND HE'S NEVER BEEN PLAYED. Pun-pun is a mental exercise, to see how far the rules could possibly break and he doesn't work.

This is also the equivalent of saying you can ice assassin TOAA just because he exists in some form. You're copying yourself even if you change form, because you still have your spells, etc. You don't have theirs. It's an average level 40 wizard not an omnipotent that suddenly knows about characters that don't exist in any canon form.


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## Redemption X (Nov 6, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> DC wise how strong is a level 20/40 wizard anyway??
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously the only advantage the wizard had that was mentioned in this whole thread is time stop, no one has mentioned how the wizard would deal any damage to anyone on HST... the only abilities strongarm kept using mentioning are self BFR and replication. which won't deal any damage to anyone that matters in HST.. and the attack that was mentioned.. the ones mention which involved Gravity and a giant rock are not even going to matter here...........



There is spell named *Imprisonment*. Many spells bypass durability, but this one is special because it doesnt allow you to do saving throw. As long as you dont have magic resistance (and magic resistance isnt tied to level/power, so HST tops wont receive it by virtue of being powerful creatures) you are done for. 

So Time Stop + Imprisonment will work against 95% of HST (it requires touching so Lille/Obito and a  few others might be spared).


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## shade0180 (Nov 6, 2015)

._.

again I know that saving throw is a game mechanic so why is it being used here?

anyway I did look at it and it is a proper hax..


> When you cast imprisonment and touch a creature, it is entombed in a state of suspended animation (see the temporal stasis spell) in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth. The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place. Magical search by a crystal ball, a locate object spell, or some other similar divination does not reveal the fact that a creature is imprisoned, but discern location does.



You guys should really post how those spell works..  rather than using game mechanics to validate the ability... in this thread...

seriously



> When you cast imprisonment and touch a creature, it is entombed in a state of suspended animation



Just this part and anyone would already understand how this shit works..


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## Plague (Nov 6, 2015)

I think in the scenario where he fights them one at a time, he could win, but all at once, he loses.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 7, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> ._.
> 
> again I know that saving throw is a game mechanic so why is it being used here?



So saving throws are important for spells because there is often a chance that really powerful spells can fail.

For example with  Fireball, if you happen to be standing inside a given area when a fireball is cast, you get cooked for a huge amount of damage. Fireball is kind of like having an Rocket Propelled Grenade explode near you.

So if your reflexes are good enough, you might be able to avoid the full brunt of the explosion, which would cause you to only take half of much damage. So this represents someone with fast reflexes being able to avoid the full brunt of the damage from an exploding fireball right? The difficulty of the saving throw determines the odds that a person has to avoid taking the full damage from a fireball exploding near them in this case. 

This is important if your characters with a good amount of speed in some series because they might also have Evasion, and Evasion says that if you succeed on a reflex save, you don't take any damage from something like a Fireball.

So if the Reflex Save DC for a Fireball is a 15 (which is very low), and you are an average human being, you  have about a 25% chance to not take the full damage of the spell. So if an average human being has about 8 hit points in D&D, the damage of a Fireball is 10d6 which means an average Fireball is going to do about 30 points of damage to you. So in other words the Fireball will hit a normal person 75% of the time and hit them with enough force to completely incinerate someone's body and leave nothing but ashes behind.

However, you manage to pass your reflex save, you only have to take 15 damage from the fireball, which while not enough damage to kill you outright. Means that you get to spend what's left your life horribly maimed and burned over 90% of your body. Congratulations, you just saved against a Fireball.

So if your talking about a character from naruto, or bleach though, your still talking a really powerful fireball blowing up in your face, but the characters in there much faster than real humans, so they have what would be called Evasion. And Evasion simply states that if you pass a Reflex save to avoid damage from a spell, you instead take no damage. 

Now, here is why Reflex DCs are important. The more powerful a Wizard is, the more powerful their spells become, and the harder it is to pass those save DCs. 

A level 40 wizard is going to have spell save DCs around 50 to 60 depending. At that point those Fireballs are traveling somewhere close to Mach 1 or Mach 2, and your just are not fast enough as a human being to ever be able to react to it, so you take the Fireball to the face and die. A Wizard can make it much worse for you.

If a Wizard cast Time Stop, they can throw 5 Fireballs at once, and have all of them explode at the exact moment that Time starts moving again, so that you have 5 Fireballs exploding next to your in your face at the same time. So while someone as fast as Rock Lee could probably a dodge a single Fireball, he probably isn't fast enough to dodge 5 of them blow up suddenly in his face all at once.

By the way, many high level D&D character are able to tank Multiple Fireballs to the face, without dodging. Wizards are no exception. While they can't take as much punishment as a Fighter, they often have an array of Defensive spells that make actually tagging them with anything next to impossible.

A Wizard can:

1. become Intangible
2. Instantly travel to another plane of existence
3. Teleport across vast distances or short distances.
4. Ward themselves against physical attacks using force magic.
5. Magically increase their movement speed to the point that time appears to stop from their perspective.
6. Rapidly blink between dimensions so that attacks that would hit them actually hit an after image while they are themselves safe in another dimension.
7. Create false mirror images of themselves.
8. Create Force Fields around themselves that are can only be destroyed by a Disintegration rays.

And those are just basic low level spells.

A Level 40 Wizard would likely needed to have already found a way to make himself immortal due to the sheer amount of time it would take to accumulate that much knowledge. Most Wizards of that level would, by necessity, also need to also be immortal somehow.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 7, 2015)

> However, you manage to pass your reflex save, you only have to take *15 damage* from the fireball, which while* not enough damage to kill you outright.*


Actually, uh. Yea it would.

Best representation of an average person.


> A level 40 wizard is going to have spell save DCs around 50 to 60 depending. At that point those Fireballs are traveling somewhere close to Mach 1 or Mach 2, and your just are not fast enough as a human being to ever be able to react to it, so you take the Fireball to the face and die.


Making shit up.
This also contradicts you saying no one is epic here. All the characters the wizard is fighting can run circles around the fireballs.


> If a Wizard cast Time Stop, they can throw 5 Fireballs at once, and have all of them explode at the exact moment that Time starts moving again


Only works with delay fireball spell.

No, wizards time stop doesn't work like ZA WAARUDO


> So while someone as fast as Rock Lee could probably a dodge a single Fireball, he probably isn't fast enough to dodge 5 of them blow up suddenly in his face all at once.


Rock lee has been faster than the made up speed you gave for those fireballs from the very start. Now? It wouldn't matter how many.


> By the way, many high level D&D character are able to tank Multiple Fireballs to the face, without dodging.


Which isn't impressive at all by your own words.


> Fireball is kind of like having an Rocket Propelled Grenade explode near you.


I have to say you probably aren't too great of a wizard if you think fireball is good here or in most situations. you only prep one or two. Because fireball sucks.


> Create Force Fields around themselves that are can *only be destroyed by a Disintegration rays.*


NLF and Naruto has attacks like that, arguably better.


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## shade0180 (Nov 7, 2015)

strongarm said:
			
		

> At that point those Fireballs are traveling somewhere close to Mach 1 or Mach 2



Mach 1 and 2.. .pffffft ... like that matter here... no seriously....

if you think that kind of speed is a thing here then you are truly underestimating this verses... even Kenshin could outspeed those fire balls and you think HST will get hit by that shit..


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## Katsuargi (Nov 7, 2015)

Hm. Didn't see it was limited to just two books. Shit. That drops...a metric fuckton of hax.



Uh. Maybe something to get speed from.

Do we know what order of magnitude of speed difference there needs to be to cause a "time stop" effect with it?

D&D characters are at minimum lightning timers from being able to dodge cloud to ground lightning.

So the time stop acceleration will be at minimum whatever it takes to make time seem to stand still when dealing with lightning timers.


And yeah, no. D&D characters arn't winning shit with raw DC. Hax and bad touch are the most they've got going for them.

Discounting IC knowledge, the best DC I can get them up to is the following (after it was pointed out polymorph wouldn't work because of the "value" of antimater but that True Creation should handle it though being a much, much weaker spell)

True Creation: 1 Cu / Ft. per caster level. (40 Cu. Feet. per cast)
Create: 40 Cu / Ft. Antimater osmium.

DC: 1.1 Teratons per casting.

Drawbacks:

1: Not very impressive.
2: 10 minute casting time without muchkining it somehow. (And I'm not sure there's a way just using just the epic + core book.)

Assuming you can get it off, and there's a few ways I can think of with the limited sources, 19 Edalions of the casters (Which will leave you with 20 total level 21 casters) would be able to drop 22 teratons if they cast at the same time.

If:

A: The Wizard has a bag of Level 8 epic wizardry spells to hand out to his clones
B: Hide somewhere long enough (Again, I don't believe any HST characters can get inside dreams)
C: Use some spell or another to store antimater so it doesn't go off prematurely.

Then the absolute maximum amount of times a (now level 21) Wizard cast cast it is about 30.

Which means, given one day worth of spells, if they can manage B - C, the Wizard(s) can generate about 13.2 petatons worth of antimater per day.

Even if they hide indefinitely and dedicate their lives to doing this, it would take them, what, 5~ years to win this via DC?


So yeah. Bad touch, BFRs, and Out of Context spells is the wizard's ways to win here. Not DC.


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## Keishin (Nov 7, 2015)

Katsuargi said:


> As I've mentioned: Ice assassin.
> 
> TLDR: Lets you make a clone of the target, with all of it's abilities and an overwhelming desire to kill the original.



Just like Royd and Loyd then


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## Qinglong (Nov 7, 2015)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Also, the mistake was allowing them to use "optimized" D&D mages, which is basically the same thing (in their minds) as letting them use Pun-Pun





			
				Unlosing Ranger said:
			
		

> Technically I'd hit them with a stick for munchkining.
> 
> 
> > They can stop time, teleport to a demiplane where all the laws of physics and magic are under their direct control and the ratio of time passing in the demiplane/time passing in the Prime Material plane is 10000000000000000000000000000000/1, spend an arbitrary amount of time casting whatever spells they want - which can include just scry-and-die zapping Kazuma an arbitrary number of times - summon an army of 123459384589073049503457239084503987 gribblies, surround Kazuma with 239058301380908235093 castings of the most powerful damage spell they have, teleport the gribblies in just outside that range, and then teleport back.
> ...





			
				Unlosing Ranger said:
			
		

> > The ice assassin spell is in many ways an improved version of simulacrum.
> > Developed by powerful frost mages who have more than their fair share of enemies to fight, an ice assassin is an effective way to destroy an enemy without putting yourself at risk.
> > *An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature. The duplicate is formed entirely out of ice, but once the spell is in effect, it appears as an exact duplicate to all but its source, who always sees the ice assassin as an animated ice statue of himself.*
> 
> ...


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## Katsuargi (Nov 7, 2015)

Valid points. I did dredge it up from a min-max board.

On my damage thing: It's not even something I'm positive you can pull off without venturing deep into supplements. Just trying to point out how even going with the most high end DC spell I can think of and then turning it to 11 shows DC isn't ever going to be the answer here.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 7, 2015)

lol. I forgot I even posted that, but yeah.
I dredge into 3.5 often, I know things look at me.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 7, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> 1. become Intangible
> -Nardo along with Madara, Kaguya, pein, sauce or anyone with the Rinnegan can touch intangibles...
> 2. Instantly travel to another plane of existence
> - Kaguya, Shin, Obito can do that shit
> ...



Yeah, but here is the difference, a Wizard can layer all of those effects simultaneously.

Furthermore the Wall of Force has no molecular structure to interact with. No one in the HST  has an ability that interact with it. It is a wall made up of pure force magic, and its durability is nigh indestructible. The only thing that can interact with it per RAW is a Disintegrate spell, which is powerful enough to 10 Cubic Feet of solid into dust.

But that said, a Wizard behind the Wall of Force would still survive a Disintegration spell that hit it, because Disintegrating Wall of Force still leaves whatever is behind the Wall of Force unharmed.

When your talking about a Disintegrate spell, your talking about a literal green laser bolt that flies out of someone's finger, but strikes with enough force to destroy a 10 Cubic feet of material. A level 40 wizard would likely have the feats to be able to fire something like that off as an at will ability.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 7, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> Furthermore the Wall of Force has no molecular structure to interact with. No one in the HST  has an ability that interact with it. It is a wall made up of pure force magic, and its durability is* nigh indestructible*. The only thing that can interact with it per RAW is a Disintegrate spell, which is powerful enough to 10 Cubic Feet of solid into dust.
> 
> When your talking about a Disintegrate spell, your talking about* a literal green laser bolt that flies out of someone's finger, *but strikes with enough force to destroy a 10 Cubic feet of material. A level 40 wizard would likely have the feats to be able to fire something like that off as an at will ability.


**wanking intensifies**


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## Katsuargi (Nov 8, 2015)

Disintegrate vaporize 10 cubic feet of anything. Someone know the DC value of doing that to whatever material in the real world has the highest DC value? That would demonstrate how low this feat is. ;-)

Here's the most raw damage spell I can find:



So you toss Intensify on it. The spell now does 3,660 damage. That's a metric fuckton in D&D terms, but what does it really mean?

Well. Let's open up the breaking and entering section of the handbook.

Stone has a hardness of 8 (subtracts 8 damage from attacks that don't ignore hardness) and an HP of 15/inch.

So, the most numerically powerful spell in D&D, after being buffed with the strongest metamagic in the Epic Handbook...

Disintegrates a 6.2 meter hole in a stone wall. Even if we're generous and say the minimum targetable area is a 5 foot square (1.5~) meters, it vaporizes a 13.95~ meter area of stone.

That's what, Large building level? Small city block?

Standard damage dealing without cheese or hax isn't your friend here.


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## shade0180 (Nov 8, 2015)

> Disintegrate* vaporize* 10 cubic feet of anything. Someone know the DC value of doing that to whatever material in the real world has the highest DC value? That would demonstrate how low this feat is



 vaporization.... the problem is material.. either way it won't result higher than country level..


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## Katsuargi (Nov 8, 2015)

0.o. I didn't realize vaporization energies were so high as to get country levels from low double digit cubic feet of materials.


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## shade0180 (Nov 8, 2015)

Er I don't really know the value.  I'm just saying it won't get that high


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## strongarm85 (Nov 8, 2015)

Let's find out shall we!

Lets say for arguments sake that the Material we are going to use for this Demonstration is Osmium, because it is has the highest melting and boiling point of any known metal that isn't an alloy.

The Amount of energy needed to vaporize a Mol of Osmium is 630 kJ/mol



And 1 Mol of Osmium is 254.2276 grams of Osmium.



Osmium has a Density of 22.59 g/cm3

10 ft3 = 283,168 cm3

22.59 * 283,168 = 6,396,765.12 grams of Osmium

6,396,765.12(Grams of Osmium) / 254.2276 (Grams of Osmium per mol) = 25161.56 mol of Osmium

25161.56 (Mols of Osmium) * 630 kj/mol (Vaporization heat) = 15,851,788 kj = 15.85 Gigajules of Energy



Coincidentally,  this is also the DC needed to destroy a Wall of Force.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 8, 2015)

In other worlds > Large building level, but still less than city block level.

By the way that's the DC for Disintegrate, 15.85 Joules = 3.79 Ton (explosives)

Vengefull Gaze of God is about 8 times more powerful than Disentigrate, so that would be 30.32 Tons, so almost 3 City Blocks... on 1 object... while leaving everything else in the environment completely alone.


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## martryn (Nov 8, 2015)

Hey, I know, have you ever had a character that survived being hit by a disintegrate?  Have you ever fought a beholder?  Well, there you go.  If a DnD character can survive a direct hit, most HST characters can too.  We don't have to talk about saving throws, but disintegrate is damage, and damage can be survived.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 8, 2015)

martryn said:


> Hey, I know, have you ever had a character that survived being hit by a disintegrate?  Have you ever fought a beholder?  Well, there you go.  If a DnD character can survive a direct hit, most HST characters can too.  We don't have to talk about saving throws, but disintegrate is damage, and damage can be survived.



Yeah, but the spell Vengeful Gaze of God is about 8 times more powerful. All that means is characters in D&D that survive Disintegrate spells have > Large Building levels of durability.

If a Character can survive the Vengeful Gaze of God, then their durability is multi-city block level.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 8, 2015)

I used tungsten as I wasn't sure what material would have the highest energy to heat + energy to fuse + energy to vaporize. Wound up with 7 tons of TNT, or just under building level.

Your average level 40 Wizard's durability:

HP Per Level: 1d4 (Avg: 2.5) 8 40 = 100
Not being a scrub con 14: +2 per level = 80
(Bracers of +8 (+4 per level) = 160)

Total: 180 (Or 340)

How much is this? A little more than 1 (or 2) average disintegrates. So somewhere in the neighborhood of building level Wizards.

Just for funzies, does this hold up using the breaking an entering HP stuff?

Probably not. A punch that can shatter A 1x5x5 foot stone wall can shatter a wizard. (2~x5x5 with bracers).


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## strongarm85 (Nov 8, 2015)

You know Katsuargi, we also have still failed to take into account any magical items that the Wizard would likely be carrying on them as well.

Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location would prevent Naruto and Bleach characters from following an example level 40 Wizard if it went to another plane of existence to plot it's next move. So the Wizard wouldn't be restricted to using dreams to attack, since they could safely attack from any plane of existence that they wanted to.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 8, 2015)

I've been including them to highlight potential maximums. Like This is a base wizard, and this is a wizard if they're using whatever items are optimal for X.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 9, 2015)

An Epic level wizard could also just merge the Plane of Existence the fight takes place on with the plane of death temporarily, let it kill everyone, and then bring himself back from the dead using a Self-Resurrection spell.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 9, 2015)

Which spell in the epic handbook does that?


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## strongarm85 (Nov 9, 2015)

There is a spell I referenced a few pages ago that could can do it, turn up the spell DC and you make it last for days.

Contingent Resurrection allows a Wizard to bring themselves back to life afterwards.

It should also be noted that the Epic Spell seed for Dispel "prevents all supernatural abilities from working." So another method a wizard  has for dealing with Logias is to turn them into regular people again. Furthermore you can combine the dispel spell seed with the Energy seed to create large AOE effects where all magic and all supernatural abilities stop working.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 9, 2015)

He specifically disallowed spell creation. You can only use the specifically listed spells.


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## Keishin (Nov 9, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> There is a spell I referenced a few pages ago that could can do it, turn up the spell DC and you make it last for days.
> 
> Contingent Resurrection allows a Wizard to bring themselves back to life afterwards.
> 
> It should also be noted that the Epic Spell seed for Dispel "prevents all supernatural abilities from working." So another method a wizard  has for dealing with Logias is to turn them into regular people again. Furthermore you can combine the dispel spell seed with the Energy seed to create large AOE effects where all magic and all supernatural abilities stop working.



Yhwach has shown reviving the dead on the spot and returning all power like the ability to speak and getting conceptually cleaved in half, and losing his names and letters and something. Not to mention like 5 ways to steal power.


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## shade0180 (Nov 9, 2015)

> An Epic level wizard could also just merge the Plane of Existence the fight takes place on with the plane of death temporarily, let it kill everyone, and then bring himself back from the dead using a Self-Resurrection spell.



problem is he isn't the only one who can resurrect

Bijuu's are immortal. they can just reappear after their original death. along with the Juubi... 

 

Bleach characters are technically already dead hence.. (Soul Society) so I'm not even sure if this plane of death would affect them 

and Kaguya well as shown she is still not dead even now..



then you have edo tensei... 



So technically the only one that might have any real problem about this is One Piece but the wizard can't still clear it considering you have guys like Brook in it.. so technically there might be High/Top tier that could even survive the plane of death you are talking about..


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 9, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> problem is he isn't the only one who can resurrect
> 
> Bijuu's are immortal. they can just reappear after their original death. along with the Juubi...
> 
> ...



That homebrewed  plane of death shit would also be a bad idea my who would have thought.


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## martryn (Nov 9, 2015)

> Yeah, but the spell Vengeful Gaze of God is about 8 times more powerful. All that means is characters in D&D that survive Disintegrate spells have > Large Building levels of durability.



Oh, please.  Following this extrapolation would get ridiculous.


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## Katsuargi (Nov 9, 2015)

Well, no. I demonstrated vengeful gaze of god comes up to multi-city block level when the epic metamagic is tossed on it.

But...that's the highest numerical effect in the game that any non-cheese character will have access to (as it's a singular spell with a singular feat applied that's in the same book.)

-Nothing- in D&D has that much HP. Which means, hax aside, raw durability of D&D characters is <Multi-city block.

The God tiers might chil at around city block. Upper tiers are large building.

Without employing Hax, D&D is very low scale.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 9, 2015)

Katsuargi said:


> Well, no. I demonstrated vengeful gaze of god comes up to multi-city block level when the epic metamagic is tossed on it.
> 
> But...that's the highest numerical effect in the game that any non-cheese character will have access to (as it's a singular spell with a singular feat applied that's in the same book.)
> 
> ...



Employing hax it still is low scale.


> -Nothing- in D&D has that much HP



* (or half of that if a Fortitude save succeeds).*
*Spellcraft DC: 	419*


> Target: 	One creature, or up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter in line of sight


*The caster is likewise dealt 200d6 points of damage *

uhuh, because this is  normally casted by wizards. 
You need cheese to cast this spell.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 9, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> That homebrewed  plane of death shit would also be a bad idea my who would have thought.



Except its not homebrewed.

That's a canon spell from one of the Eleminster novels. Dude took out an invading army by merging the field they were marching across with the plane of death.

This is something a Wizard potentially craft.

Yes Wizards can craft their own spells at level 40, but there are rules outlined for how they can craft their spells, which is what the Epic Spell seeds exist for.

If your trying to create a fight between a 40th level Wizard, but only allow them to act in ways that much lower level Wizard could, then your not actually fighting a level 40 Wizard are you?

On the other hand, an AOE spell that stops all magic and supernatural abilities from working, that could strip Logias of their powers and make them all human again, only has about a DC 38.

Be thankful Bleach isn't fighting an Epic Cleric. At level 40, Turn Undead would just straight up end a lot of problems.


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## shade0180 (Nov 9, 2015)

Can you define supernatural abilities.. 

that spell reeks of NLF... seriously...

also I implore you to post the definition for that spell along with how it works which I did for one of the spell in an earlier post to check the credibility of it considering you aren't even bothering to give the name that spell.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 9, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Can you define supernatural abilities..
> 
> that spell reeks of NLF... seriously...
> 
> also I implore you to post the definition for that spell along with how it works which I did for one of the spell in an earlier post to check the credibility of it considering you aren't even bothering to give the name that spell.



Yes! In 3.5 Supernatural abilities are defined as any ability that relies on a form of Magic, Spell LIke Ability (ie. anything that can resemble magic), of Psionics to operate. Ordinarily Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled through normal magical effects, but the epic spell see for Dispel specifically allows you to do that.

Chakra, stops working.

Bloodline abilities like the Sharingan, stop working.

Logia users, stop working.

Shinigami loose reishi, and their Zanpaktos go away,

Yhwach becomes a normal human again.

The tailed beast Vanish because they're made out of Chakra.

The Epic Spell seed for Energy allows you to fire off AOEs, and for a mere +5 DC you can make it affect a 2 mile Radius area, which is wide enough to hit everybody.

And the best part is, it's a permanent effect, leaving the area doesn't give people their abilities back.

Action 1: Timestop

Action 2 (in stopped time): teleport away 

Action 3 (in stopped time): Dispell AOE because fuck those guys.

Action 4 (in stopped time): Create a Portal to Abyss

Action 5 (in stopped time): Cast Permanence on the Portal to the Abyss

Action 6 (in stopped time): Travel to another plane of existence.

Action 7: Time resumes, pull out a Orb of Scrying and conjure popcorn.


----------



## shade0180 (Nov 9, 2015)

> Yes! In 3.5 Supernatural abilities are defined as any ability that relies on a form of Magic, Spell LIke Ability (ie. anything that can resemble magic), of Psionics to operate



Okay so this is your definition... get me the official one is what I meant.. 

either way to evaluate this...



> Chakra, stops working.



No it doesn't... Chakra is an internal energy which could be equated to life force and not magic... so no from your explanation in the first part I quoted this isn't going to stop working. what will stop working are Ninjutsu.. and genjutsu.. that's it.. the wizard will still have to deal with the Like's of Guy who rely on his physical strength along with the rest of the god tier who well can kill him with a punch...



> Bloodline abilities like the Sharingan, stop working.



Again this isn't going to stop by your definition.. Sharingan give you better eyes than the rest of the world... they just won't be able to cast abilities like Susanoo, Izanami or Kamui and those other nin/gen stuff.. that's about it.. 



> Shinigami loose reishi, and their Zanpaktos go away,



Reishi is an internal energy again by your explanation it won't be affected.. Zanpakuto are souls.. so unless this ability has soul fuck properties they are not going to go away..



> Yhwach becomes a normal human again.



Yhwack is a soul... he won't ever be going to be a normal human..



> The tailed beast Vanish because they're made out of Chakra.



 the tailed beast has skin, meat and bone...  the thing this would do is stop them from shooting BB's that's about it.... He still need to deal with 100 meter beast that can run at 3-4 digit mach and crush mountains with their tail physically...



> The Epic Spell seed for Energy allows you to fire off AOEs, and for a mere +5 DC you can make it affect a 2 mile Radius area, which is wide enough to hit everybody.



Random numbers..  I need you to provide me the source for this shit..



> And the best part is, it's a permanent effect, leaving the area doesn't give people their abilities back.
> 
> Action 1: Timestop
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure the wizard is also affected by this shit so..... technically he can't do any of what you listed but he will have 100 meter tall monster to deal with physically so...



Seriously the speed discrepancy is large.

If he doesn't start with this ability anyone from HST can kill him near instantly at the start of the match..

If he does start with this he would need to deal with the HST physically because I'm pretty sure in universe the wizard is affected by this spell along with everyone that is within it.. and the wizard is physically weaker than anyone that matters in HST..

So.. it isn't going to help him either way..


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 9, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> Except its not homebrewed.
> 
> That's a canon spell from one of the Eleminster novels. Dude took out an invading army by merging the field they were marching across with the plane of death.
> 
> ...


What's the spellcraft level of the spell then, how much prep did it take?
Do you actually know that spell casters level?
How big was the field?
Did you know that novels and movies make up shit all the time that's homebrewed?


> On the other hand, an AOE spell that stops all magic and supernatural abilities from working, that could strip Logias of their powers and make them all human again, only has about a DC 38.


doubt that works the way you think it does seeing as how you got everything else wrong.
Need something more than your word.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 9, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> What's the spellcraft level of the spell then, how much prep did it take?
> Do you actually know that spell casters level?
> How big was the field?
> Did you know that novels and movies make up shit all the time that's homebrewed?
> ...



)



Read it and weap.

Supernatural abilities in D&D 3.5 include any ability using magic, Spell Like Abilities (which is further defined by an ability that resembles magic), or Psionics in this case. The Dispell Spell seed specifically puts a stop to all of that stuff. On it's own, it can only target a Single individual.

But you can combine the spell seed with the Energy Spell Seed, which has an option, for an additional +5 DC, to extend the area of a spell for up to 2 miles.

So combined DC needed to cast this spell is 43. Super easy for a Level 40 Wizard, he pretty much autopasses the check.

The people being effected have no save against the effect.

So as defined by D&D 3.5, abilities like Chakra, Reishi, and Logia Abilities: They all stop working. Even effects created by gods stop working.

The Wizard can also just not include himself in the effected area.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 9, 2015)

You're taking this way too personally strongarm.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 9, 2015)

**gives links to the worst most inaccurate dnd wiki on the net**
I meant real links man


----------



## Katsuargi (Nov 9, 2015)

I'm really not of the opinion that casting a spell that's specific listed in the handbook is any kind of cheese.

Also, I never said the wizard would survive. I just wanted the high, high end in "reasonable" D&D.

Casting it at a not absurd level on the other hand...


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 9, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> **gives links to the worst most inaccurate dnd wiki on the net**
> I meant real links man



Do you have a source that contradicts what I posted?

No?


----------



## shade0180 (Nov 9, 2015)

> Extraordinary
> 
> *Extraordinary abilities, though they may break the laws of physics, are nonmagical, don?t become ineffective in an antimagic field, *are not subject to any effect that disrupts magic, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted.



I'm not even going to bother... because even the wiki is against you in this case.. 


There's a table at the bottom that support what I said...

Seriously.... Wizard is going to get gang raped if he activates this field you are talking about....


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 9, 2015)

> Do you have anything that contradicts what I posted?
> 
> No?












Anyhow even making fun of your poor choice of sources I'm about to pick them apart easily. By you know actually reading it. plus you didn't post the energy spell seed. I wonder why



> But you can combine the spell seed with the Energy Spell Seed, which has an option, for an additional +5 DC, to extend the area of a spell for up to 2 miles.


Oh wait it doesn't do anything and only interacts with energy, not to mention that there are likely rules for using more than one seed per spell.


> SeedISPEL Abjuration
> Spellcraft DC: 	19
> Components: 	V, S
> *Range: 	300 ft.*
> ...





> By default, supernatural abilities are magical and *go away in an antimagic field.* However, some creatures have psionic abilities that are considered supernatural. Psionic feats are also supernatural abilities. These abilities do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed.
> 
> *Supernatural abilities of either type are not subject to spell resistance nor power resistance. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled and are not subject to counterspells*.


Okay time to pick things apart.
First off it says ongoing spells, as in ongoing.

Now I said the abilities were mostly supernatural to simplify things, but fact of the matter is most of the abilities the wizard faces are likely also extraordinary.

As seeing what the wizard faces is EPIC mostly the DC he has to make is actually rather high, even his spell craft check gets higher and some of the higher tiers that are murdering him don't need anything magical in the least.
And lastly all this is single target because you have shown no way to extend a dispel for 2 miles. Because it was rather clear that didn't exist or it'd have heard about it by now.
 Yeah good job. Sure showed me man.





> I'm really not of the opinion that casting a spell that's specific listed in the handbook is any kind of cheese.
> 
> Also, I never said the wizard would survive. I just wanted the high, high end in "reasonable" D&D.
> 
> Casting it at a not absurd level on the other hand...


The wizard would murder himself with the dmg first.
You'd have to use cheese to avoid that.
The craft check needs to becheese at level 40.
It's quite obviously meant for DM use more than player use.
Like, I dunno, gods?


----------



## shade0180 (Nov 9, 2015)

Seriously the wizard won't even be able to deal with the weakest Nardo Character if this table is true...


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 9, 2015)

Basically as established on page one wizard gets wrecked within first 5 seconds.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 10, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Anyhow even making fun of your poor choice of sources I'm about to pick them apart easily. By you know actually reading it. plus you didn't post the energy spell seed. I wonder why
> 
> 
> Oh wait it doesn't do anything and only interacts with energy, not to mention that there are likely rules for using more than one seed per spell.



Except that you've glossed over a very important detail of this spell.



> Evocation [Acid, Fire, Electricity, Cold, Or Sonic]
> Spellcraft DC:	19
> Components:	V, S
> Casting Time:	1 minute
> ...





This hypothetetical spell doesn't just use the Dispell spell seed, it also uses the Energy Spell Seeds. When designing your own spells epic spell Seeds can be combined from multiple schools to create the desired effect. 

Using the Energy Spell Seed you can create a spell that affects a 2 mile Radius area. And using Epic Speed feats, a Wizard can exclude himself and his belongings from be affected by the spell. 



> Okay time to pick things apart.
> First off it says ongoing spells, as in ongoing.
> 
> Now I said the abilities were mostly supernatural to simplify things, but fact of the matter is most of the abilities the wizard faces are likely also extraordinary.
> ...



Actually I did explain how you can make a Dispell hit everything within 2 miles of himself, but I'll admit to glossing over the details. 

Spells seeds can be combined from multiple schools to get high effects.

If we're being Frank, an epic level Wizard probably has a low ball base intelligence score of 26, and a more realistic 40 in this edition if you account for other bonus a Wizard is likely to acquire along the way to level 40. He also would have likely maxes out his skill ranks spell craft, which means he probably has spellcraft that is over +50, which means that a spellcraft in the 70s is not unreasonable, and a spell craft in the low 100s is possible with enough people and resources helping him in his research, which is not unreasonable for a level 40 Wizard to command.

You really wouldn't to cheese things to research something like  this either. When you combine multiple spell seeds together you simply add the DCs together. So 19 from the Dispell and 25 from the Energy seed. The Wizard only needs a DC 44 Spellcraft check to create  this spell, and he probably has a natural +50 to his Spellcraft which means he auto succeeds in creating the spell.



> Seriously the wizard won't even be able to deal with the weakest Nardo Character if this table is true...



Yeah... about that.



> The dispel seed can dispel (but not counter) *the ongoing effects of supernatural abilities* as well as spells, and* it affects spell-like effects just as it affects spells*.





> By default, *supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field.* However, some creatures have *psionic abilities that are considered supernatural*.* Psionic feats are also supernatural abilities*. These abilities do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed.





> The dispel seed can dispel (but not counter) the ongoing effects of *supernatural abilities* as well as spells, and it affects spell-like effects just as it affects spells.



No, the Wizard shuts down the abilities of every Naruto character because it is true.

Way to fail at reading comprehension.

Essentially a Wizard can turn off every other person's supernatural abilities that he has to fight against, while excluding shutting down his own supernatural abilities because spell shaping feats allow him to exclude himself from his own AOE effects.



> Basically as established on page one wizard gets wrecked within first 5 seconds.



It was never established on page one that a Wizard gets wrecked within the first 5 seconds. It was only strongly asserted by your HST Wankery. I also established over  the course of couple pages that even a 20th level Wizard has a variety of answers defensive answers to keep from being killed in the first 5 seconds.

And even after I pointed out those defenses to you, the best argument you could come up with is that several of the top tier people from Naruto have those same defensive capabilities that our hypothetical Wizard has. To which I pointed out, yes, so clearly they are effective means self defense in this fight which are well established to work in context of a fight in Naruto and the other HST series.

The best argument anyone has proposed to a Wizard not having all of these defensive options available is "why would he spend all his spells on that defensive spells? He wouldn't have any spell left to attack with?"

To which I would respond with, "Well, That's a stupid line of reasoning, There are all sorts of ways that a Wizard could have those defensive spells up with the fight starts." A real level 40 wizard probably just use a Ring of Spell Storing that he uses to cast his defensive spells anyways, and save his precious spell slots for the real fight.

What ability does  the HST have that just auto-wins against a Wizard to the point that the fight ends within 5 seconds?

Aizen's illusions? Genjutsu? 

Ring of Mind Shielding: Its an uncommon magical item and it makes mind altering abilities go fuck off somewhere. And it's probably something a Wizard would carry around anyway because fuck Mindflayers.

Punch him in the face?

Blink says the Wizard is in another dimension when you hit him, he just looks like he's standing there. By the way was that the right one, or one of his mirror images?

By the way, has anyone in the HST demonstrated being able to find someone who is also invisible?

How about someone who can become completely intangible while staying invisible?

And Like I said before, you need Gagajules of Force to break a Wall of Force. No one in this fight can generate that kind of force without also blowing up most of their own team.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 10, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> Except that you've glossed over a very important detail of this spell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Katsuargi (Nov 10, 2015)

Also, a Legendary Dreadnought can break a wall of force with pure strength.

No martial character in D&D is outputting gigajoules.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 10, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> strongarm85 said:
> 
> 
> > You can't make it rain dispel and I doubt they will wait 10 minutes for it to go off.
> ...


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 10, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> Unlosing Ranger said:
> 
> 
> > > Yes you can.
> ...


----------



## shade0180 (Nov 10, 2015)

Strongarm is just pulling shit out of his ass at this point...


We already stablished that the wizard at best is 

MCB.. at Atk and Dura
with Speed more or less around single digit to double digit.
His time stop is not a real time stop
the wizard's ability that can nullify magic doesn't affect Physical stat.. and it only Nullify attack that haven't been fired off..
The Barrier will not be able to stop attack that are obviously above it's damage capacity which is MCB..
and half of what strongarm said is Bullshit considering even the wiki he linked to is against him..


----------



## martryn (Nov 10, 2015)

strongarm, I'll give you that with a ton of prep time or a shit ton of cheese that no one would allow in an actual game (i.e. not really what we're talking about here) a level 40 wizard could come up with several scenarios to win.

However, playing a by-the-book, generic level 40 wizard, as might be presented as an example of level 40 by WotC, he doesn't stand a fucking chance.  If Contingency saves him from a speed blitz 1 hit KO, then he dies to the various abilities he's staring in the face.  His only possible chance is escape, and then giving himself years of prep time.  

You counter specific examples with spells that either do damage (so probably not enough) or allow saves (which can be passed), or else only target a single individual (meaning too little too late).  The insane fucking shit that can come at him from all directions... fight is VERY 1-sided.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 11, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> strongarm85 said:
> 
> 
> > Unlosing Ranger said:
> ...


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 11, 2015)

martryn said:


> strongarm, I'll give you that with a ton of prep time or a shit ton of cheese that no one would allow in an actual game (i.e. not really what we're talking about here) a level 40 wizard could come up with several scenarios to win.
> 
> However, playing a by-the-book, generic level 40 wizard, as might be presented as an example of level 40 by WotC, he doesn't stand a fucking chance.  If Contingency saves him from a speed blitz 1 hit KO, then he dies to the various abilities he's staring in the face.  His only possible chance is escape, and then giving himself years of prep time.
> 
> You counter specific examples with spells that either do damage (so probably not enough) or allow saves (which can be passed), or else only target a single individual (meaning too little too late).  The insane fucking shit that can come at him from all directions... fight is VERY 1-sided.



None of these spells ideas things that Level 40 Wizard could not do. And in fact would have created over the course of several years of play to reach Level 40.

Here is the difference.

While it is 100% true that a spell can be denied by a DM because they feel it is too powerful, the rules as written allow you to do some insane spell combinations, and so long as you follow the guidelines you can create those spells.

So at that point whether or not a spell is acceptable is left purely up to the desecration of an imaginary DM. Correct?

So then if you are planning to have an OBD fight between a hypothetical Level 40 Wizard, and 3 verses, than any spell put forward by the poster, must be accepted so long as it follows the rules. Because otherwise...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c[/YOUTUBE]

If you want to have a debate, you have be able to clearly define what a character can, and cannot do. And if your opponent is some unnamed jackass who happens to be a level 40 Wizard, well then you have to at least expect for that guy to be as bad ass as possible without breaking the rules of his own universe, otherwise what the hell was the point?

Did you just want want to wank some characters, or did you want to have a meaningful debate?

If your argument comes down to "Well all of these characters are least as powerful as this imaginary character, if not more powerful"  then all you've effectively done is just wank the characters you're supporting.

Kaguya is the kind of character that party of level 15 D&D characters fight at the end of a campaign.

A Level 40 Wizard is crafting Kaguyas out of Clay.



> Seed: Transform
> Transmutation
> Spellcraft DC:	21
> Components:	V, S
> ...


----------



## Plague (Nov 11, 2015)

The problem is we're all assuming what spells he's going to have prepared and what feats. It's simply too variable. 

All Soi Fon has to do is land two hits with her Shikai. Baraggan with his Respira, Aizen's mind fuckery, Itachi's Tsukuyomi, etc. We have no idea if these abilities are able to be defended against. 

If not then they own him in the first second of the fight unless he prepared some sort of defensive spell to use as a free action. Doing so is practical but it doesn't mean he will. What are his ability scores and items on his person?

This is too variable. A turn in D and D is 6 seconds. Byakuya and Ulquiorra (as well as other higher ups in Bleach) only need a millisecond to lop his head off.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 11, 2015)

Being totally realistic here, a Wizard could just hide in a Pocket Dimension that only he can reach as a quickened spell when the fight begins, use some on hand materials to create Saitama using a Transformation spell, and just send Saitama in to Fight the HST, and just watch from the fight unfold using an Orb of True seeing.

Analyse, make adjustments. It really wouldn't take that long to wipe out the HST that way.

And Plague, potentially a Level 40 Wizard probably out speed just about anybody in the HST. There are a lot of ways you can build a character between level 1 and level 40 that would allow you to do this.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 11, 2015)

> Did you just want want to wank some characters, or did you want to have a meaningful debate?


 follows it with


> If your argument comes down to "Well all of these characters are least as powerful as this imaginary character, if not more powerful" then all you've effectively done is just wank the characters you're supporting.
> Kaguya is the kind of character that party of level 15 D&D characters fight at the end of a campaign.
> A Level 40 Wizard is crafting Kaguyas out of Clay.


Kek


> There are a lot of ways you can build a character between level 1 and level 40 that would allow you to do this.


More like only one.


> That's bullshit. A level 21 Wizard can't hit the Spell DCs that a level 40 Wizard can.


Mate. Do you notice a list of ways to lower dc? In verse the difference is minimal. 


> Yes! In fact Free action is there! It's called "Quicken Spell". Casting Quicken spells are "Free Actions". And adding "Quicken Spell" to a spell see has a simple DC cost of +25.
> 
> I'm not making anything up.
> 
> You have this idea in your head that Epic levels are unimportant because character progression Levels out after level 20. That's not accurate at all though. Progression after Level 20 as a Wizard is all about maxing out that spellcraft DC so you can keep making more and more powerful spells. If you aren't doing that, you are playing your wizard wrong.


Ah well, and was thinking it was the same. 
Alright then, this is where I tell you it still doesn't matter all that much.




> Free Action
> Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
> Drop an Item
> 
> ...


Still not fast enough, wizard has to have stats to prove he can do it.


----------



## shade0180 (Nov 11, 2015)

Strongarm your Bullshit is getting weirder.. and getting further away from anything relevant to the thread.. Transformation spell is a strength up... not that kind of shit you are talking about. also it has a large weakness which stops you from using any spell + item that can cast spells..



			
				http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm said:
			
		

> Transformation
> 
> Level: 	Sor/Wiz 6
> Components: 	V, S, M
> ...



 also the transformation spell targets yourself.. 

And seriously Saitama can't really solo the HST.. Nardo top/god tier can one shot him
the high tier can turn him into vegetable (Soul fuck, mind fuck)


----------



## Brooks (Nov 11, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> Being totally realistic here, a Wizard could just hide in a Pocket Dimension that only he can reach as a quickened spell when the fight begins, use some on hand materials to create Saitama using a Transformation spell, and just send Saitama in to Fight the HST, and just watch from the fight unfold using an Orb of True seeing.
> 
> Analyse, make adjustments. It really wouldn't take that long to wipe out the HST that way.
> 
> And Plague, potentially a Level 40 Wizard probably out speed just about anybody in the HST. There are a lot of ways you can build a character between level 1 and level 40 that would allow you to do this.



Saitama wouldn't last a minute against the Naruto God tiers let alone solo anything.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 11, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> follows it with
> 
> Kek



Ignores the party where I post the exact method he uses to make a Kaguya out of clay. No Hyperbole. Literally just make another Kaguya. 

What an troll.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Strongarm your Bullshit is getting weirder.. and getting further away from anything relevant to the thread.. Transformation spell is a strength up... not that kind of shit you are talking about. also it has a large weakness which stops you from using any spell + item that can cast spells..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who gives a fuck about the Transformation spell?

I Quoted about the Transformation Epic Spell Seed, which allows you to target any willing creator, or inanimate object.

Way to show off your reading comprehension.


----------



## shade0180 (Nov 11, 2015)

...

> Calls UR a troll
> post bullshit about D&D the game doesn't even recognize.



> I Quoted about the Transformation Epic Spell Seed, which allows you to target any willing creator or inanimate object.





			
				http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/transform.htm said:
			
		

> The transform seed can also change its target into someone specific. To transform an object or creature into the specific likeness of another individual (including memories and mental abilities), increase the Spellcraft DC by +25.* If the transformed creature doesn’t have the level or Hit Dice of its new likeness, it can only use the abilities of the creature at its own level or Hit Dic*e





> The transformed subject can have no more Hit Dice than the caster has or than the subject has (whichever is greater)



Still not going to work considering the stat difference..


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> ...
> 
> > Calls UR a troll
> > post bullshit about D&D the game doesn't even recognize.
> ...


Honestly I'm just starting to tune him out and not listen at all. I gave him a fair chance.
Think I'll ask for the thread to be closed if this is the best he can do. The matter was resolved last time anyway, same result. 
Just a few pointless numbers added onto the wizard against the hst.


> I Quoted about the Transformation Epic Spell Seed, which allows you to target any willing creator, or inanimate object.


Which has the same problem.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Still not going to work considering the stat difference..



Step 1: Create Clay Golem out of Clay

Step 2: Transform Clay Golem into Kaguya, (clay golems are creatures, so they're valid target for Transform spells)

Step 3: Profit. 

Point still stands. A Wizard can create a Kaguya.

Summon a Tarrasque, transform the Tarrasque into Kaguya, send out Kaguya.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 11, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> Step 1: Create Clay Golem out of Clay
> 
> Step 2: Transform Clay Golem into Kaguya, (clay golems are creatures, so they're valid target for Transform spells)
> 
> ...



You think anything you do will give enough HD to make Kaguya.
That is just cute.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 11, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> You think anything you do will give enough HD to make Kaguya.
> That is just cute.



You think Kaguya has more HD than the Terrasque? That's Adorable!

On what basis does Kaguya has more  HD than he Terrasque?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 11, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> You think Kaguya has more HD than the Terrasque? That's Adorable!
> 
> On what basis does Kaguya has more  HD than he Terrasque?



She's the equivalent of all the tailed beasts put together each of which are stronger than a tarrasque , you tell me.


----------



## shade0180 (Nov 11, 2015)

> Point still stands. A Wizard can create a Kaguya.
> 
> Summon a Tarrasque, transform the Tarrasque into Kaguya, send out Kaguya.



Stat difference says otherwise as pointed by the seed effect which I posted earlier..


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 11, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> She's the equivalent of all the tailed beasts put together each of which are stronger than a tarrasque , you tell me.



Prime Kaguya maybe, but she has to imprison the population of a world and siphon off their power to become that strong, and chances are good the rest of her team wouldn't just go along with the plan.

But even if that's the case, Terasques can regenerate from being completely vaporized. They can regrow completely within a few minutes, and since it would have all of her memories abilities, it would also know how to Siphon power off the 10-tails.

The only way she has to stop  the Terasque for good, even if it were changed into her would be to completely destroy its body, and then use a something a Wish spell to alter reality so that it couldn't come back.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 11, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> Prime Kaguya maybe, but she has to imprison the population of a world and siphon off their power to become that strong, and chances are good the rest of her team wouldn't just go along with the plan.
> 
> But even if that's the case, Terasques can regenerate from being completely vaporized. They can regrow completely within a few minutes, and since it would have all of her memories abilities, it would also know how to Siphon power off the 10-tails.
> 
> The only way she has to stop  the Terasque for good, even if it were changed into her would be to completely destroy its body, and then use a something a Wish spell to alter reality so that it couldn't come back.



Nothing to do with HD. No wizard can do it.


----------



## shade0180 (Nov 11, 2015)

The argument is getting stupid too. 



> The only way she has to stop the Terasque for good, even if it were changed into her would be to completely destroy its body



Which she can very well do with 1 hit... and almost everyone that matter in HST...


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> The argument is getting stupid too.



The entire argument is based on him not thinking the hst is as strong or fast as he thinks it is and trying to downplay them using game mechanics to his advantage.
But even in the game mechanics it doesn't work.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Which she can very well do with 1 hit... and almost everyone that matter in HST...



While I don't doubt kaguya's ability to put the Tarrasque down, the Tarrasque is just straight up immune to any physical attacks bellow the MJ range. There are plenty of people who hit strong enough, but not "almost everyone" could one shot it.

Point is, you have a transformed Terrasque with Kaguya's abilities that cannot be put down permanently and keeps coming back.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Nothing to do with HD. No wizard can do it.



Per RAW, you sure as hell can.


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## shade0180 (Nov 11, 2015)

MJ.. .... He thinks mega joule matters in HST...


HST are around this level - the strongest being kaguya is at planetary level


> Class GJ: Gigajoule class: Attacks carry the force of many tons of TNT explosives. Building level to low end multi city block level
> Class TJ: Terajoule class. Attacks carry the power of kilotons of explosives. Punches literally comparable to a nuke.
> Class PJ: Petajoule class. Attacks carry megatons of energy. Citybusting punches.
> Class EJ: Exajoule class. Attacks carry gigatons of energy. Characters whose blows can outright destroy an island.
> ...





> While I don't doubt kaguya's ability to put the Tarrasque down, the Tarrasque is just straight up immune to any physical attacks bellow the MJ range. There are plenty of people who hit strong enough, but not "almost everyone" could one shot it.



Yea... No..

Anyone that matter in HST is going to wreck that tarrasque one way or another with a single hit.. and HST isn't limited to Physical attack to begin with.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 11, 2015)

strongarm85 said:


> While I don't doubt kaguya's ability to put the Tarrasque down, the Tarrasque is just straight up immune to any physical attacks bellow the MJ range. There are plenty of people who hit strong enough, but not "almost everyone" could one shot it.
> 
> Point is, you have a transformed Terrasque with Kaguya's abilities that cannot be put down permanently and keeps coming back.


MJ range, you are aware even the fodder can bypass that right? Also making shit up.
It'd never come back, have you never fought a tarrasque?
You just put it into the negatives so hard *it never wakes up.* That's why people drown them in 3.5 
Tenten takes it down, alone.


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