# Hashirama vs. Rinnegan Obito



## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Location: VotE
Distance: Opposing heads
Knowledge: Reputation (Akatsuki leader~God of Shinobi) 
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: None

Obtio has his paths.

Never could seem to determine who the favorite was.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Hashi can hit obito? How? 
Hasi can escape Kamui? By what?


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## Rasengan with gatorade (Sep 23, 2013)

Hashirama has control over tailed beasts so the paths are not going to be that useful, and he has sage mode and that makes him too fast, Hashirama is going to win.


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## Coppur (Sep 23, 2013)

I would say Hashirama,  he can already counter the stronger of the tailed beasts (Gyuki and Kurama) with some serious difficulty, so to say he can counter the 2-7 with relative ease is not a stretch. Couple that with the fact that this is IC so Obito won't be spamming his rinnegan like he should, and the fact that Obito would have already drained most of his chakra on controlling the jinchuriki, he would be an easy target for Hashirama to pick off. And by then Obito's only real means of attacking and defending is kamui, and then it is really just a waiting game, and due to Hashirama's massive chakra reserves and senjutsu:

Hashirama wins high difficulty at best.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Coppur said:


> I would say Hashirama,  he can already counter the stronger of the tailed beasts (Gyuki and Kurama) with some serious difficulty, so to say he can counter the 2-7 with relative ease is not a stretch. Couple that with the fact that this is IC so Obito won't be spamming his rinnegan like he should, and *the fact that Obito would have already drained most of his chakra on controlling the jinchuriki, he would be an easy target for Hashirama to pick off.* And by then Obito's only real means of attacking and defending is kamui, and then it is really just a waiting game, and due to Hashirama's massive chakra reserves and senjutsu:
> 
> Hashirama wins high difficulty at best.



so, obito will drain his chakra, but not hashi? 

obito was fighting this whole time, and he was perfectly fine, even Kurama's chakra drained 3 times, but not obito's chakra! (which is actually an asspull )


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Elia said:


> Hashi can hit obito? How?
> Hasi can escape Kamui? By what?



Hashirama is more than fast enough to do both of those things. If Kakashi, Gai and Naruto were able to react to Obito, then Hashirama certainly can.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Hashirama is more than fast enough to do both of those things. If Kakashi, Gai and Naruto were able to react to Obito, then Hashirama certainly can.



you do know that
1- Naruto is MUCH faster than Hashi
2- Kakashi has Kamui which is Obito's Kamui's weakness. 

and Hashi does not have any of those. Also, they did that with teamwork, Hashi is alone here. 

oh, and they knew that because kakashi is a genius, and we were told a lot of times that Hashi is stupid.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Hashirama is more than fast enough to do both of those things. If Kakashi, Gai and Naruto were able to react to Obito, then Hashirama certainly can.



The Yellow-Flash only managed by the skin of his teeth with an instantaneous Jutsu. I think that if there are any certainties in this battle, one of them is that Hashirama cannot afford to be touched.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Elia said:


> you do know that
> 1- Naruto is MUCH faster than Hashi
> 2- Kakashi has Kamui which is Obito's Kamui's weakness.



1. Naruto isn't much faster than Hashirama. The Shodaime Hokage was outrunning bijū-damas and fighting more or less evenly with Madara in base; the same Madara who was able to casually react to 'cloaked' Naruto (who is a tier faster than the normal controlled Kyūbi-mode Naruto). 

2. That's not what I'm talking about. 



> and we were told a lot of times that Hashi is stupid.



Naruto is stupid as well, but does that mean he's incapable of being perceptive in battle or making battle strategies?



Rocky said:


> The Yellow-Flash only managed by the skin of his teeth with an instantaneous Jutsu. I think that if there are any certainties in this battle, one of them is that Hashirama cannot afford to be touched.



I agree with the latter, yeah. But with all the tricks Hashirama has (moku-bunshin clones, mass terraforming) as well as his speed and sage senses (should he decide to enter sage mode), I don't think he's going to get blitzed and warped away.


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## Coppur (Sep 23, 2013)

Elia said:


> so, obito will drain his chakra, but not hashi?
> 
> obito was fighting this whole time, and he was perfectly fine, even Kurama's chakra drained 3 times, but not obito's chakra! (which is actually an asspull )


Hashi has more chakra than just about everyone bar Edos,  maybe Naruto and MAYBE (but probably not) BM Minato, not to mention Senjutsu. Saying Obito can outlast Hashi is just about the most ridiculous argument for Obito I have seen so far.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> 1. Naruto isn't much faster than Hashirama.



It goes something like Hashirama < Gai < Ei < KCM Naruto < BM Naruto~Minato < BSM Naruto~BM Minato imo.

The puts a big gap between Shodai & Naruto.



> I agree with the latter, yeah. But with all the tricks Hashirama has (moku-bunshin clones, mass terraforming) as well as his speed and sage senses (should he decide to enter sage mode), I don't think he's going to get blitzed and warped away.



Obito's ability to vanish from thin air kind of makes Hashirama's forest creation useless, and Tobi can just pop the clones.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It goes something like Hashirama < Gai < Ei < KCM Naruto < BM Naruto~Minato < BSM Naruto~BM Minato imo.



This is obviously where we disagree, then. I think Hashirama is faster than Bijū Mode Naruto based on their respective performances against Madara.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> This is obviously where we disagree, then. I think Hashirama is faster than Bijū Mode Naruto based on their respective performances against Madara.



Oh my god. :sanji

Bijuu Mode Naruto deflected 5 Bijuudama with speed alone. 

Ei made it perfectly clear: there was no Shinobi faster than him in the past other than Minato.

Your scaling is atrocious I assume, because it would have to be something like Bijuu Mode Naruto < Hashirama~Madara < Ei < KCM Naruto.

Madara never reacted to Naruto's body flicker. He deflected a clone. Madara slaughtered Hashirama's clones while sitting down.

Hashirama is slower than Base Minato, as he arrived at the battlefield ahead of all of them. Tobirama commented on this. In turn, Base Minato isn't even faster than Ei, let alone Naruto.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> 1. Naruto isn't much faster than Hashirama. The Shodaime Hokage was outrunning bijū-damas and fighting more or less evenly with Madara in base; the same Madara who was able to casually react to 'cloaked' Naruto (who is a tier faster than the normal controlled Kyūbi-mode Naruto).
> 
> 2. That's not what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...



Yes, he is. 
Biju-dama is not fact in the first place to begin with
only Hashirama
at most it's only as fast as FRS
Link removed

- Naruto was not using his speed against Madara, so I'm not sure how is that prove anything
or are you going to tell me that kakashi & Guy are also as fast as Naruto?
Link removed
the same with Itachi, Sasuke and Sakura they are all as fast as Naruto? 

- Well, he certenlly was not smart enough to figure out obito's Kamui's weakness. 
Also, as matter of fact, even if he knew its weakness, Hashi neither has FTG speed as Minato, not does he have Kamui as kakashi to counter Obito's weakness. He does not even have a long jutsus as konan. 

Thus, hashi does not have ANY of Kamui's weaknesses. and I don't see how is he not going 
to be touched for 1 time. 


Coppur said:


> Hashi has more chakra than just about everyone bar Edos,  maybe Naruto and MAYBE (but probably not) BM Minato, not to mention Senjutsu. Saying Obito can outlast Hashi is just about the most ridiculous argument for Obito I have seen so far.


Hashi's chakra is a bit bigger than the SHARED chakra. thus both Naruto AND Minato (both with Kurama's chakra of course) have more chakra than Hashi. 

oh please, give us a break, because actually saying Hashi has more chakra than obito is the
most ridiculous  by feats. and you said it yourself, Naruto has more chakra than Hashi, yet do you know how many times Kurama's chakra has drained in this battle? No less that 3 times!

give me where Obito's chakra drained for even one time!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> This is obviously where we disagree, then. I think Hashirama is faster than Bijū Mode Naruto based on their respective performances against Madara.



Even though Naruto never used his max speed against such foes? Based on the fact that when he's tried he's always failed e.g. being bit by the gunbai twice.


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## Coppur (Sep 23, 2013)

Elia said:


> Hashi's chakra is a bit bigger than the SHARED chakra. thus both Naruto AND Minato (both with Kurama's chakra of course) have more chakra than Hashi.
> 
> oh please, give us a break, because actually saying Hashi has more chakra than obito is the
> most ridiculous  by feats. and you said it yourself, Naruto has more chakra than Hashi, yet do you know how many times Kurama's chakra has drained in this battle? No less that 3 times!
> ...



I said Naruto MIGHT have more chakra than Hashirama, and by that I meant after his recent BSM power-up. Giving us a break implies that there is more than just you making this argument, there isn't. Obito's chakra was implied to be draining when he couldn't use his Six Paths, and in the fact that he hasn't been able to use most of his rinnegan abilities as they are too chakra taxing. However, I can't already tell no matter what I say your mind is made up, so debating it is largely irrelevant.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> This is obviously where we disagree, then. I think Hashirama is faster than Bijū Mode Naruto based on their respective performances against Madara.




[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIWHMb3JxmE&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]


Coppur said:


> I said Naruto MIGHT have more chakra than Hashirama, and by that I meant after his recent BSM power-up. Giving us a break implies that there is more than just you making this argument, there isn't. Obito's chakra was implied to be draining when he couldn't use his Six Paths, and in the fact that he hasn't been able to use most of his rinnegan abilities as they are too chakra taxing. However, I can't already tell no matter what I say your mind is made up, so debating it is largely irrelevant.



well, it does not matter since Hashi said the chakra that Naruto HAD SHARED is as big as his, Naruto obviously has more chakra himself! 

- Whatever please you. /~_~/


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## SSMG (Sep 23, 2013)

Anyone saying naruto kurama chakra is drained hasn't been paying attention to the manga. that form has a time limit.. a very short one at that too its currently only what ten minutes duration in the manga.

this means naruto could go BM. not use a single jutsu and he'd still have to revert the form after the time limit. this has nothing to do with chakra used or kurama using all his chakra up.

Naruto goes right back to KM mode right after using BM... and both these forms use kuramas chakra.

On topic obito would win if no knowledge... with knowledge hashi could constantly keep the pressure on obito with mokuton and his SM striking until his kamui runs out


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hashirama is slower than Base Minato, as he arrived at the battlefield ahead of all of them. Tobirama commented on this. In turn, Base Minato isn't even faster than Ei, let alone Naruto.



Are people still arguing this garbage? I'll re-state what I did in an older topic:




Master Sephiroth said:


> This is such a faulty argument. How many times have we seen a team keep up with each other on a mission and they had different actual speeds in battle?
> 
> The Sasuke Retrieval team all had different levels of speed, but they stayed at exactly the same speed even though time was of the essence. Unless you want to say base Chouji = Neji in speed in that particular arc.
> 
> ...



Minato got there first because of Hiraishin. The others stayed in formation. There's no speed feat to be had here.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Are people still arguing this garbage? I'll re-state what I did in an older topic: Minato got there first because of Hiraishin. The others stayed in formation. There's no speed feat to be had here.



Tobirama drew the conclusion that Minato was faster than him by judging their Shunshin speeds during that travel period. I don't think they were purposely staying in formation.


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## Veracity (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Oh my god. :sanji
> 
> Bijuu Mode Naruto deflected 5 Bijuudama with speed alone.
> 
> ...



You should probably give Hashi more credit then that. That's sorta sad.

Saying that he's slower then Ay based on what he said? So does that make Minato unsurpassable?
Using that gay ass feat of Minato arriving first. When he could have used either a shunshin or FTG. While the others obviously didn't.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Saying that he's slower then Ay based on what he said? \



Hashirama is slower than Ei because Hashirama cannot outrun the Sharingan's field of vision and dodge instantaneous Amaterasus.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 23, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> blah



Yet tobirama said his *shunshin*(not FTG) pales in comparison to minato's and hiruzen said he lived up to his name(the yellow flash). They could not keep up.

Minato is faster than any of the other hokage.


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## Veracity (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hashirama is slower than Ei because Hashirama cannot outrun the Sharingan's field of vision and dodge instantaneous Amaterasus.



Was there a feat for this? Or when was this confirmed?


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## SSMG (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hashirama is slower than Ei because Hashirama cannot outrun the Sharingan's field of vision and dodge instantaneous Amaterasus.


Yet rock lee and gaaras sand can... he is slower than these guys?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 23, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Yet rock lee and gaaras sand can... he is slower than these guys?



Rock lee outmaneuvered a noob sasuke's sharigan and gaara sand blocked enton not a instant amaterasu.

Come on y'all know better.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Yet rock lee and gaaras sand can... he is slower than these guys?



Rock lee can do neither of those things, and Gaara's sand blocked Enton, not Amaterasu.


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## ueharakk (Sep 23, 2013)

Hashirama faster than BM Naruto?  
The hell did I just read?

What's next, Sasuke's faster than KCM Naruto and V2 Ei cuz he arrived as Sakura's side first?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Hashirama faster than BM Naruto?
> The hell did I just read?
> 
> What's next, *Sasuke's faster than KCM Naruto and V2 Ei cuz he arrived as Sakura's side first?[/B}*


*

I think i actually seen people suggest the bold. Do not know if they were serious but they gave off the impression that they were.*


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Was there a feat for this? Or when was this confirmed?



When Hashirama didn't have any feats that surpassed dodging an "undodgable" Jutsu.


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## Jagger (Sep 23, 2013)

Hashirama wins. Obito won't come into battle once the Bijuu start fighting.

If I remember correctly, the only time he jumped into fight was when KM Naruto that didn't even use his clones, speed or other ninjutsu was just there standing getting the hits from the Jinchuuriki and Obito tried to catch him. Let's be honest, Naruto was severely nerfed in that fight to make him start losing and then, use BM and win. He could have done much more than talking. 

Hashirama can suppress the chakra from the Jinchuuriki quite easily. He restrained the Juubi, made Kurama look like a little puppy and the Dragon Wood Jutsu forced BM Naruto to his human form to release himself from it. The real problem comes when Obito decides to fight with him after the Bijuu are done for.


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## SSMG (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Rock lee can do neither of those things, and Gaara's sand blocked Enton, not Amaterasu.



My mistake about rock lee.. i thought it was kakashi who said they couldn't see anything bt it was shikamaru.

and enton _is_ amatersaru.. so unless there's something stating its slower i won't assume that.. especially since enton is sasuke controling it.. and when you have better chakra control ypu use do things better(see gaaras sand from p1 to his current sand)


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

SSMG said:


> and enton _is_ amatersaru.. so unless there's something stating its slower i won't assume that.. especially since enton is sasuke controling it.. and when you have better chakra control ypu use do things better(see gaaras sand from p1 to his current sand)



Enton means Blaze Release. Amaterasu is not a Blaze Release technique.


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## SSMG (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> When Hashirama didn't have any feats that surpassed dodging an "undodgable" Jutsu.



This is a lpgical fallacy. amatersaru has.never been used against hashirama.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Minato got there first because of Hiraishin. The others stayed in formation. There's no speed feat to be had here.



Although it's true that Minato was using his FTG, but when he put his tags around the Juubi
it was via his shunshin.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Yet tobirama said his *shunshin*(not FTG) pales in comparison to minato's and hiruzen said he lived up to his name(the yellow flash). They could not keep up.
> 
> Minato is faster than any of the other hokage.



Tobirama used the word shunshin for FTG
blindsided



ueharakk said:


> Hashirama faster than BM Naruto?
> The hell did I just read?
> *
> What's next, Sasuke's faster than KCM Naruto and V2 Ei cuz he arrived as Sakura's side first?*



I have already seen that, and it's not only sasuke, even itachi is as fast if not faster than Naruto
because of their "battle" lol


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## SSMG (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Enton means Blaze Release. Amaterasu is not a Blaze Release technique.



clouded

this is a supposed to say his right eye controls it but i guess its a mistranslation... probably due to it still was a guess what his right eyes ms technique was until this chapter.
But its yeah enton is just sasuke controlling his amatersaru flames.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

SSMG said:


> This is a lpgical fallacy. amatersaru has.never been used against hashirama.
> 
> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.



Ah so you have no evidence. Well then you can't really support your stance can you.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 23, 2013)

Elia said:


> Tobirama used the word shunshin for FTG
> clouded



So minato just had seals on that battlefield randomly? Or did he get close the battlefield and then throw a kunai down warp to it and then work his speed magic(placing his kunai all around the juubi). 

Minato cannot use FTG without seals and throwing kunai over and over teleporting to them would be kinda pointless unless minato have some crazy throwing power. Either that or he had a pre placed tag(though kishimoto usually makes note of when minato use FTG).

Meh whatever...minato is still the fastest that much is apparent. Excluding that feat does not change that.


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## Veracity (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> When Hashirama didn't have any feats that surpassed dodging an "undodgable" Jutsu.



I'm a little rusty, can you refresh me on some of BM Naruto's high end speed feats


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## vagnard (Sep 23, 2013)

There was a lot of PNJ against Rinnegan Obito. Naruto just happened to became friend with bijuus and shit like that. 

We have seen Hashirama needs to touch a bijuu with Mokuton to control him (like he did with Kyuubi). Now he will have to evade bijuudamas from 6 different directions plus a intangible guy who can finish the battle with a touch. Naruto would be captured if Gai and Kakashi didn't save him.

I'd put Rinnegan Obito *with Jinchuuriki Paths* above Madara, Hashirama and BM Naruto. Naruto had a lot of help against him and still couldn't finish him with his bijuu mode.

If PIS is nullified just by terms of arsenal Obito wins.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> So minato just had seals on that battlefield randomly? Or did he get close the battlefield and then throw a kunai down warp to it and then work his speed magic(placing his kunai all around the juubi).
> 
> Minato cannot use FTG without seals and throwing kunai over and over teleporting to them would be kinda pointless unless minato have some crazy throwing power. Either that or he had a pre placed tag(though kishimoto usually makes note of when minato use FTG).
> 
> Meh whatever...minato is still the fastest that much is apparent. Excluding that feat does not change that.



I don't know, I support the idea that they teleported first to the nearest place to the battlefield. 
remember that Minato fought A, B before and he has Kunais near Kumo. The same with Tobirama who fought Kin & Gin. 

The important thing.
1- Hashi & Tobi both stated the use of FTG in the chapter 627.
2- When Minato's first appeared kishi show us his Kunai, so we know he used FTG. 
3- FTG called by shunshin several times, including Tobirama who called it like that! 

Minato's FTG > Tobirama's


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I'm a little rusty, can you refresh me on some of BM Naruto's high end speed feats



Naruto appearing as a flash of light to Bee in an inferior form.

Naruto outpacing Max Power Ei in an inferior form (also appears to be as fast as Minato to Bee & Tsunade).

Naruto deflecting 5 Bijuudama with just his Shunshin.

Naruto breaking the Mokuryū with just his Shunshin (also intercepts Madara & Obito from atop his Kurama avatar before they can *finish swinging their arms).*


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama drew the conclusion that Minato was faster than him by judging their Shunshin speeds during that travel period. I don't think they were purposely staying in formation.



Tobirama has been calling FTG Shunshin or Hiraishin. It's quite obvious it was because of FTG. They arrived in formation, there's absolutely no reason they stayed that way by coincidence. Hiruzen does not have the speed feats that Hashirama or Tobirama have.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Tobirama has been calling FTG Shunshin or Hiraishin.



I think Tobirama of all people would know the difference between Shunshin & Hiraishin. 



> Hiruzen does not have the speed feats that Hashirama or Tobirama have.



Now he does. I don't understand what the problem is. Hashirama and Tobirama don't have overly impressive flicker feats.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I think Tobirama of all people would know the difference between Shunshin & Hiraishin.



Obviously he does not know the different, 
unless you think Minato used shunshin to teleport to obito.
Minato used shunshin?
here

Tobirama proved that
Link removed


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I think Tobirama of all people would know the difference between Shunshin & Hiraishin.









> Now he does. I don't understand what the problem is. Hashirama and Tobirama don't have overly impressive flicker feats.



Hashirama's speed in running away from PS + Kurama was actually very impressive, covering a very large landscape in a matter of seconds flat.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Is that the correct translation?



> Hashirama's speed in running away from PS + Kurama was actually very impressive, covering a very large landscape in a matter of seconds flat.



Base Minato did the same thing when he jumped across the entire Leaf village to FCD Kurama from above before the fox finished charging its attack.

Covering large distances quickly isn't that impressive when high-grade Shinobi are like 100 times the speed of sound and shit.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2013)

^


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## Veracity (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto appearing as a flash of light to Bee in an inferior form.
> 
> Naruto outpacing Max Power Ei in an inferior form (also appears to be as fast as Minato to Bee & Tsunade).
> 
> ...



That's it? I know the KCM ones, bit I think BM Naruto's speed feats are heavily overrated. He used his arms to deflect BD'S(very impressive strength and durability feat) and then shunshin'd  a rather  short distance when everyone was distracted.


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## Rocky (Sep 23, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> He used his arms to deflect BD'S(very impressive strength and durability feat) and then shunshin'd  a rather  short distance when everyone was distracted.



He didn't use his arms. That's not what we saw.

And breaking apart the Wood Dragon with just a Shunshin seems impressive to me.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Apparently, the viz translates the word as "teleportation" in English. That could mean either Jutsu.



It's clear that he uses Hiraishin, but Tobirama and some other people (like Rin in Kakashi Gaiden) use other terminology.




> Minato needs marks to use Hiraishin. There were none on Kurama, or floating in the sky above Kurama's head.



What I mean, is that he could have marks all along Konoha. He certainly had no trouble using Hiraishin going to wherever he wanted. I find it hard to believe that he couldn't use Hiraishin to cover that distance. If he could cover that much distance at a time with Shunshin alone, he wouldn't have needed to make a Shadow Clone to use Hiraishin to cut Obito.



> Massively Hypersonic could mean from mid-tier Naruto to some guys in DBZ. This a large range. Let's not get into calculations.



I know, I'm not getting into calculations. But you were the one that brought up "100 times the speed of sound". There's no direct way of proving how fast these characters are unless you use calculations, which as I already stated, I don't agree with.


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## Rocky (Sep 24, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> It's clear that he uses Hiraishin, but Tobirama and some other people (like Rin in Kakashi Gaiden) use other terminology.



Yeah, you just have to pay attention to which Justsu is being used.




> What I mean, is that he could have marks all along Konoha. He certainly had no trouble using Hiraishin going to wherever he wanted. I find it hard to believe that he couldn't use Hiraishin to cover that distance. If he could cover that much distance at a time with Shunshin alone, he wouldn't have needed to make a Shadow Clone to use Hiraishin to cut Obito.



He warped _*above*_ the Kyuubi, and it's very tall. Unless he had a mark on Kurama or above him, he used Shunshin. It's simple.

As for the example, why didn't Hashirama the mountain-jumper reach Obito then? Minato uses Hiraishin because Hiraishin is faster than Shunshin and he had Obito marked. What reason would he have for using Shunshin?



> I know, I'm not getting into calculations. But you were the one that brought up "100 times the speed of sound". There's no direct way of proving how fast these characters are unless you use calculations, which as I already stated, I don't agree with.



We have a canon calculation in FRS traversing a mountain range in less than a second, and there's a bunch of guys faster than FRS. Ei, Naruto, Gated Gai, etc. They can all jump mountains, as they're all faster than FRS.


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## Master Sephiroth (Sep 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He warped _*above*_ the Kyuubi, and it's very tall. Unless he had a mark on Kurama or above him, he used Shunshin. It's simple.



You're missing what I'm saying. He could easily cut the distance he needed to use Shunshin on by warping with Hiraishin to a more convenient location. 



> As for the example, why didn't Hashirama the mountain-jumper reach Obito then? Minato uses Hiraishin because Hiraishin is faster than Shunshin and he had Obito marked. What reason would he have for using Shunshin?



Hashirama was focused on the barrier and Madara. He entrusted the people that were closer. 



> We have a canon calculation in FRS traversing a mountain range in less than a second, and there's a bunch of guys faster than FRS. Ei, Naruto, Gated Gai, etc. They can all jump mountains, as they're all faster than FRS.



What exactly are you referring to?


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## Rocky (Sep 24, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> You're missing what I'm saying. He could easily cut the distance he needed to use Shunshin on by warping with Hiraishin to a more convenient location.



But that never happened. What we saw was Minato go from the mountain to Kurama in one maneuver. 



> Hashirama was focused on the barrier and Madara. He entrusted the people that were closer.



All Hokage were focused on the barrier. Hashirama made clones to go after Obito too.



> What exactly are you referring to?



FRS crossing the Chibaku Tensei crater, which is multiple mountains long, after only 1 second had passed in Tendo's ST interval.


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## Punished Pathos (Sep 25, 2013)

Obito wins this. He should have knowledge on Hashirama's jutsus.


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## Kai (Sep 25, 2013)

No, Hashirama wins. 

I may have to dig up the threads that had Hashirama as the favorite before the VOTE flashbacks were even fully revealed. The bijuus bow before him, and while it's probable for Tobi to win this in a no knowledge situation, it's still going to be a difficult task against the bijuus he's surrendered as well as Hashi's naturally high reflexes and Tajuu Mokuton Bunshin.

With Sage Mode in play, it's anything but a discussion. Tobi isn't getting near him with sage sensing/reflexes and multiple bijuus as opposition.

EDIT: Found it.


It's really a spectacle how quickly people trade their sense of power comparisons for their own dulled out simulations in their heads over time. This is just one example too; the contrast in the same threads with the exact same stipulations over the span of just 20 chapters can reach mind boggling levels.

Base Hashirama would give Rin'negan Tobi an extreme difficulty fight.


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## Trojan (Sep 25, 2013)

Kai said:


> No, Hashirama wins.
> 
> I may have to dig up the threads that had Hashirama as the favorite before the VOTE flashbacks were even fully revealed. The bijuus bow before him, and while it's probable for Tobi to win this in a no knowledge situation, it's still going to be a difficult task against the bijuus he's surrendered as well as Hashi's naturally high reflexes and Tajuu Mokuton Bunshin.
> 
> ...



Hashi can use the bijuus in a fight, since when? 

Reflexe? I doubt his reflex is any where near naruto's or minato's who needed the FTG


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## Rocky (Sep 25, 2013)

Kai said:


> Base Hashirama would give Rin'negan Tobi an extreme difficulty fight.



What are you talking about? Obito is an awful, _awful_ match-up for "hurr endless firepower" Hashirama. Do you underestimate how hard it is to hit Obito?


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