# Corvus Corax vs Leman Russ



## Fang (Jan 16, 2012)

Who takes this in a friendly spar?


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## NemeBro (Jan 16, 2012)

Leman Russ has fought Magnus the Red, but frankly didn't do particularly well using his own strength and skill (Aka he brought help, Magnus wasn't focused entirely on Russ, and Russ won with a lucky shot. Most of the fight, Magnus held the upper hand), but it's Magnus the Red (IMO _the_ strongest Primarch) so that can be forgiven. He also fought evenly for an extended periond of time with Lion El'Jonson, who is pretty tough as far as Primarchs go.

Corax fought Lorgar, and kicked the shit out of him, but... That was pre-Aurelian, when Lorgar was still kind of a pussy. Night Haunter/Konrad Curze also proved to be at the least physically stronger than Corax, and forced Corax to retreat.

Hm, does Corax get his Jump Pack? If not, I'd definitely have to go with Leman Russ, I think. Large and strong even for a Primarch (Rivaling or nearing Magnus, so I'd say the only Primarchs definitely stronger physically are Vulkan and Ferrus Manus), fast enough to fight evenly with Lion El'Jonson (Who was able to stab Curze before Curze could react, Curze who reacted to Corax's death blow to Lorgar, blocking and overpowering it).

With a Jump Pack, it is harder to say.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jan 16, 2012)

NemeBro said:


> Leman Russ has fought Magnus the Red, but frankly didn't do particularly well using his own strength and skill (Aka he brought help, Magnus wasn't focused entirely on Russ, and Russ won with a lucky shot. Most of the fight, Magnus held the upper hand), but it's Magnus the Red (IMO _the_ strongest Primarch) so that can be forgiven. He also fought evenly for an extended periond of time with Lion El'Jonson, who is pretty tough as far as Primarchs go.



I think it'd be fair to say that Magnus' heart wasn't really in it given how long it took him to actually join the fray. 



NemeBro said:


> Corax fought Lorgar, and kicked the shit out of him, but... That was pre-Aurelian, when Lorgar was still kind of a pussy. *Night Haunter/Konrad Curze also proved to be at the least physically stronger than Corax, and forced Corax to retreat.*



_Deliverance Lost_ makes it clear that Corax felt he could beat The Night Haunter in a fight, but retreated out of fear. It's not that he was scared of losing, per-say, but something on a more emotional, psychological level. 

He later muses to himself that he and Curze were very similar. Both of them grew up hiding in the dark, both of them rose up in the name of justice, both of them were somewhat reserved with their brothers. Corax was afraid because when he saw how far off the deep end Curze had gone he realised how easily it could have been him. The thought unnerved him and he retreated, something he cursed himself for afterwards.



NemeBro said:


> Hm, does Corax get his Jump Pack? If not, I'd definitely have to go with Leman Russ, I think. Large and strong even for a Primarch (Rivaling or nearing Magnus, so I'd say the only Primarchs definitely stronger physically are Vulkan and Ferrus Manus), *fast enough to fight evenly with Lion El'Jonson (Who was able to stab Curze before Curze could react*, Curze who reacted to Corax's death blow to Lorgar, blocking and overpowering it).
> 
> With a Jump Pack, it is harder to say.



In that instance Curze was caught totally by surprise that his "honourable" brother would stoop so low as to cheap shot him. 

In _Deliverance Lost_ there are several Marines betting on who will be the one to kill Horus and the smart money is on Russ or Sanguinius. 
Also, Corax muses to himself that he's been a reasonable match for Horus in their friendly sparring, but he'd dread to go up against Angron. 
So...there's reasonable praise for Russ and Corax personally feels he'd do okay against Horus, of all people.

For the purposes of this Thread, with it being a "friendly spar" I could still see Leman Russ taking it. Corax is more tactical, but Russ showed during his duel with Magnus that he's much more of a brawler. If Corax felt he'd die fighting Angron, I don't peg Russ as any less skilled or ferocious than the big red machine, so I'd say he could take the fight.


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## NemeBro (Jan 16, 2012)

Gaelek_13 said:


> I think it'd be fair to say that Magnus' heart wasn't really in it given how long it took him to actually join the fray.



Obviously.



> _Deliverance Lost_ makes it clear that Corax felt he could beat The Night Haunter in a fight, but retreated out of fear. It's not that he was scared of losing, per-say, but something on a more emotional, psychological level.



Corax was still overpowered, physically, though. 



> He later muses to himself that he and Curze were very similar. Both of them grew up hiding in the dark, both of them rose up in the name of justice, both of them were somewhat reserved with their brothers. Corax was afraid because when he saw how far off the deep end Curze had gone he realised how easily it could have been him. The thought unnerved him and he retreated, something he cursed himself for afterwards.



He retreated after Curze overpowered him, lol.



> In that instance Curze was caught totally by surprise that his "honourable" brother would stoop so low as to cheap shot him.



Lion El'Jonson cleared a distance of multiple meters and was able to put his sword in Curze to the hilt. Beyond that, he also completely dominated Curze afterwards in the weapons game afterwards. 



> In _Deliverance Lost_ there are several Marines betting on who will be the one to kill Horus and the smart money is on Russ or Sanguinius.
> Also, Corax muses to himself that he's been a reasonable match for Horus in their friendly sparring, but he'd dread to go up against Angron.
> So...there's reasonable praise for Russ and Corax personally feels he'd do okay against Horus, of all people.



Weird, because at another point Corax outright claims that in martial combat, only Horus and "maybe" Sanguinius could best Angron. 

Granted, yeah, of the loyal Primarchs, I would say Leman Russ and Sanguinius are the strongest overall in combat. 

Also, uh, doing well against Horus in friendly sparring is a bit different from going up against Angron in... Any situation, really. Angron doesn't have much of a concept of holding back.



> For the purposes of this Thread, with it being a "friendly spar" I could still see Leman Russ taking it. Corax is more tactical, but Russ showed during his duel with Magnus that he's much more of a brawler. If Corax felt he'd die fighting Angron, I don't peg Russ as any less skilled or ferocious than the big red machine, so I'd say he could take the fight.



Angron makes Leman Russ look like a friendly kitten, to be perfectly blunt. Leman Russ puts on a snarling masquerade (One that Valdor and Fulgrim are shown to be aware of, notably), but is actually shown to be very level-headed behind it, and when interacting with Primarchs who aren't named Magnus the Red. Angron is nothing but pure aggression all the time (Though it does mask a keen, if indirect, intelligence). 

Skill is harder to say, IMO. Angron really only has hype going for him, dude needs to actually fight another Primarch.


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## Fang (Jan 17, 2012)

Lion did cheap-shot the Night Haunter, and yeah it shouldn't be a surprise when you cheap-shot your brother by shoving a sword all the way into his chest while your healthy your going to hold the upper hand in the fight.

Also I'll call bullshit on Sanginius beating of his brothers outside of Fulgrim, possibly, and Eruizen.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jan 17, 2012)

NemeBro said:


> Corax was still overpowered, physically, though.



Curze had an easier time of it, true, but my point was more to refute that Curze "forced" Corax to retreat because by the word of the man himself, he retreated for emotional reasons. Incidentally, he used the moment Curze was speaking to Lorgar, a moment where he could easily have chosen to attack instead. But I digress, my point was more to refute that Curze "forced" Corax to retreat.




NemeBro said:


> He retreated after Curze overpowered him, lol.





> *The First Heretic*, Pg.457
> 
> Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze's second gauntlet closed on his brothers wrist. "No," Curze's laughter was as joyless as his smile. "Do not fly away, little raven. Stay. We are not finished, you and I."



Corax's first blow was intercepted by Curze's own claw and they "strained" against each other. When Corax intends to retreat Curze has to use his free hand to stop him. And that's about the extent of their engagement. Curze didn't overpower Corax, he simply grabbed a guy to stop him from falling back. As I said, Corax reteated because he was unnerved due to emotional reasons, not because he was beaten. Again, he felt he could've killed Curze even in that situation.

If you require further proof:



> *Deliverance Lost*, Pg.22
> 
> Alone in that vestibule on the roaring, shaking drop-ship, Corax despised himself for his momentary cowardice. He should have stayed and fought, should have slain the Night Haunter and killed pathetic Lorgar of the Word Bearers straight after, denying the rebels two of their commanders, even though it might have cost him his life.






NemeBro said:


> Lion El'Jonson cleared a distance of multiple meters and was able to put his sword in Curze to the hilt. Beyond that, he also completely dominated Curze afterwards in the weapons game afterwards.



Insofar as I can see the distance between them is unclear, but Primarch's being very fast is nothing new.

El'Jonson apologised "for such a dishonourable blow". It's pretty straightforward. Lion El'Jonson was an honourable warrior and to Curze it was unthinkable that a guy who upheld high martial honour would cheap shot someone. Curze was taken by surprise.
All that aside, El'Jonson having the upper hand means little. Corax also felt that Curze was more of a psychopath with a blade than anything else. 




NemeBro said:


> Weird, because at another point Corax outright claims that in martial combat, only Horus and "maybe" Sanguinius could best Angron.
> 
> Granted, yeah, of the loyal Primarchs, I would say Leman Russ and Sanguinius are the strongest overall in combat.
> 
> Also, uh, doing well against Horus in friendly sparring is a bit different from going up against Angron in... Any situation, really. Angron doesn't have much of a concept of holding back.



My point was to weight up the respective in-Verse opinions on these guys. Nothing more.
Joe Public felt that Leman Russ was the guy to take out Horus and evereyone who disagreed with that said Sanguinius.
Corax can and has fought well against Horus in friendly spars by his own admission.




NemeBro said:


> Angron makes Leman Russ look like a friendly kitten, to be perfectly blunt. Leman Russ puts on a snarling masquerade (One that Valdor and Fulgrim are shown to be aware of, notably), but is actually shown to be very level-headed behind it, and when interacting with Primarchs who aren't named Magnus the Red. Angron is nothing but pure aggression all the time (Though it does mask a keen, if indirect, intelligence).
> 
> Skill is harder to say, IMO. Angron really only has hype going for him, dude needs to actually fight another Primarch.




Strictly keeping to martial skill I, personally, don't peg Leman Russ as that much weaker than Angron - if at all. Even if Russ isn't as big a hardass, as you say, he's got better intellect.

As for Angron fighting another Primarch...by the way the guy is hyped up it wouldn't end well. Either he wins, but doesn't kill them which makes him look a bit bad. He loses, which is pretty piss poor. Or it's a draw which is just disappointing and again, reflects badly on the guy everyone seems to be afraid of fighting.


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## NemeBro (Jan 17, 2012)

Gaelek_13 said:


> Curze had an easier time of it, true, but my point was more to refute that Curze "forced" Corax to retreat because by the word of the man himself, he retreated for emotional reasons. Incidentally, he used the moment Curze was speaking to Lorgar, a moment where he could easily have chosen to attack instead. But I digress, my point was more to refute that Curze "forced" Corax to retreat.



All right. I haven't read Deliverance Lost so I was not aware of Corax's reasons.



> Corax's first blow was intercepted by Curze's own claw and they "strained" against each other. When Corax intends to retreat Curze has to use his free hand to stop him. And that's about the extent of their engagement. Curze didn't overpower Corax, he simply grabbed a guy to stop him from falling back. As I said, Corax reteated because he was unnerved due to emotional reasons, not because he was beaten. Again, he felt he could've killed Curze even in that situation.
> 
> If you require further proof:



Why didn't you quote the short passage before it?

"CORAX LOOKED TO meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as
his own. *His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets
of blades scraping as they ground against each other. One claw
seeking to fall and kill, the other unyielding in its rising defence.
Where the Raven Guard primarch’s features were fierce with effort,
the other face wore a grin.* It was a smile both taut and
mirthless – a dead man’s smile, once his lips surrendered to rigor
mortis.
‘Corax,’ said the other primarch.
‘Curze,’ Corax said the name as the curse it was.
‘Look into my eyes,’ said the progenitor of the Night Lords Legion,
‘and see your death.’" (Sorry, can't provide page numbers, as I have this on pdf, don't own the book)

Before Curze introduced his second claw, Corax was already straining, with Curze's claw pushing Corax's upwards, away from Lorgar. Corax was also shown to be exerting himself, Curze was not.

I'm not necessarily saying that Curze would kick Corax's ass, just that he is physically stronger, compared to Leman Russ, who is at least nearly as strong as Magnus.



> Insofar as I can see the distance between them is unclear, but Primarch's being very fast is nothing new.
> 
> El'Jonson apologised "for such a dishonourable blow". It's pretty straightforward. Lion El'Jonson was an honourable warrior and to Curze it was unthinkable that a guy who upheld high martial honour would cheap shot someone. Curze was taken by surprise.
> All that aside, El'Jonson having the upper hand means little. Corax also felt that Curze was more of a psychopath with a blade than anything else.



Fair enough, it was been a pretty long while since I actually read the story.

On a side note, I can't help but wonder where Aaron Dembski-Bowden got his ideas for the Lion's characterization in that story. Certainly not from the Dark Angels books in the series, where the Lion is a dishonorable scumbag. 



> My point was to weight up the respective in-Verse opinions on these guys. Nothing more.
> Joe Public felt that Leman Russ was the guy to take out Horus and evereyone who disagreed with that said Sanguinius.
> Corax can and has fought well against Horus in friendly spars by his own admission.



Okay. I'm not really disputing that idea, of the loyal Primarchs, I would bet on them over the others as well.

Perhaps, and this is what makes Primarch vs. Primarch debates kind of hard to decide. The Primarchs are different, and A>B>C logic can't really be used. Leman Russ' advantages over Horus are a more brutal fighting style and greater physical strength, as a comparison, IMO. 



> Strictly keeping to martial skill I, personally, don't peg Leman Russ as that much weaker than Angron - if at all. Even if Russ isn't as big a hardass, as you say, he's got better intellect.



Maybe not. Angron needs to do something to justify the hype, as I said. Right now he has only killed things that wouldn't have a chance against pre-Aurelian Lorgar. 



> As for Angron fighting another Primarch...by the way the guy is hyped up it wouldn't end well. Either he wins, but doesn't kill them which makes him look a bit bad. He loses, which is pretty piss poor. Or it's a draw which is just disappointing and again, reflects badly on the guy everyone seems to be afraid of fighting.



Or he could fight two Primarchs at once. 



Fang said:


> Also I'll call bullshit on Sanginius beating of his brothers outside of Fulgrim, possibly, and Eruizen.



Why would you?

And did you mean Urizen?

Lorgar is actually, as of Aurelian, one of the strongest traitor Primarchs now. He bitched daemon Fulgrim physically and is the second most powerful psyker of the bunch (Second to Magnus, obviously, who, if you care, has a pretty good telepathy feat in Aurelian).


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jan 17, 2012)

NemeBro said:


> Why didn't you quote the short passage before it?
> 
> "CORAX LOOKED TO meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as
> his own. *His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets
> ...



I hold my hands up and confess I skim read it and completely missed the "rising defence" mention 
That seems to lend the physical power advantage to Russ at least. +Rep as a mark of good will 




NemeBro said:


> Fair enough, it was been a pretty long while since I actually read the story.
> 
> On a side note, I can't help but wonder where Aaron Dembski-Bowden got his ideas for the Lion's characterization in that story. Certainly not from the Dark Angels books in the series, where the Lion is a dishonorable scumbag.



It's probably to do with the fact that the Dark Angels stories are meant to be contradictory to keep us guessing was Lion El'Jonson a shifty character, or was he a decent guy. IIRC, isn't at least one of the Dark Angels books told from the perspective of a Fallen? Whereas the A.D.B. story was told from a Loyalist perspective. 




NemeBro said:


> Okay. I'm not really disputing that idea, of the loyal Primarchs, I would bet on them over the others as well.
> 
> Perhaps, and this is what makes Primarch vs. Primarch debates kind of hard to decide. The Primarchs are different, and A>B>C logic can't really be used. Leman Russ' advantages over Horus are a more brutal fighting style and greater physical strength, as a comparison, IMO.



Primarch Vs Primarch fights are a nightmare, IMO.

An example is obviously that Magnus could have inflicted heavier damage on Russ if he was bloodlusted and not merely fighting to survive. Another would be El'Jonson being a superior fighter to Curze, but being on the receiving end because Curze is a psycho who fights like an underground pit fighter.
And also the reasonable chance that they're simply letting ego dictate to them.




NemeBro said:


> Maybe not. Angron needs to do something to justify the hype, as I said. Right now he has only killed things that wouldn't have a chance against pre-Aurelian Lorgar.



I too would like to see more of Angron. Not just to see him smash the absolute crap out of something, but just to get inside his head a little bit more than "Yeah, he's a blood mad lunatic". The bits of info we do have actually hint towards strong martial honour and pride with the guy, despite his rage.




NemeBro said:


> Or he could fight two Primarchs at once.



I have a solution to that issue.

Isstvan V could be the perfect arena for a Vulkan Vs Angron fight. Angron is bound to have been on the frontlines of the Drop Site Massacre and what happened to Vulkan there isn't terribly clear at the moment. It'd be cool if Angron beat the shit out of him, but Vulkan narrowly escaped with his life somehow (maybe due to Alpha Legion efforts?)



NemeBro said:


> Why would you?
> 
> And did you mean Urizen?
> 
> Lorgar is actually, as of Aurelian, one of the strongest traitor Primarchs now. He bitched daemon Fulgrim physically and is the second most powerful psyker of the bunch (Second to Magnus, obviously, who, if you care, has a pretty good telepathy feat in Aurelian).



I also don't see why *Fang* would rate Sanguinius so low 
Horus felt he was the best candidate for Warmaster, a better choice even than himself.


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## NemeBro (Jan 18, 2012)

Gaelek_13 said:


> I hold my hands up and confess I skim read it and completely missed the "rising defence" mention
> That seems to lend the physical power advantage to Russ at least. +Rep as a mark of good will



Well thanks. Yeah, I'd say Russ is pretty definitely stronger. 



> It's probably to do with the fact that the Dark Angels stories are meant to be contradictory to keep us guessing was Lion El'Jonson a shifty character, or was he a decent guy. IIRC, isn't at least one of the Dark Angels books told from the perspective of a Fallen? Whereas the A.D.B. story was told from a Loyalist perspective.



It switches from loyalist to Fallen, the DA books. The second one does it every chapter, switching from Zahariel (Fallen) to Nemiel (Loyalist). He's a scumbag in both, lol. 



> Primarch Vs Primarch fights are a nightmare, IMO.



I agree, in most cases. Some Primarchs are obviously stronger than others, in direct combat, though. 



> An example is obviously that Magnus could have inflicted heavier damage on Russ if he was bloodlusted and not merely fighting to survive. Another would be El'Jonson being a superior fighter to Curze, but being on the receiving end because Curze is a psycho who fights like an underground pit fighter.
> And also the reasonable chance that they're simply letting ego dictate to them.



Well that's the thing, even while his heart was not in the fight, Magnus was still by all rights holding the advantage against Russ (Who didn't fight alone, he brought Freki and Geri to back him up as well).

El'Jonson is better with a weapon, I'd say, but Curze is the superior brawler.

And yeah, ego plays a factor, most Primarchs are inherently arrogant. All but Sanguinius (Who is practically saintly) and Lorgar (Who sucks and knows it, at least, at first), really.



> I too would like to see more of Angron. Not just to see him smash the absolute crap out of something, but just to get inside his head a little bit more than "Yeah, he's a blood mad lunatic". The bits of info we do have actually hint towards strong martial honour and pride with the guy, despite his rage.



After De'Shea hints at it, yeah, but I want more, lol. Apparently though, Dembski-Bowden is going to do a World Eaters book of some kind.



> I have a solution to that issue.
> 
> Isstvan V could be the perfect arena for a Vulkan Vs Angron fight. Angron is bound to have been on the frontlines of the Drop Site Massacre and what happened to Vulkan there isn't terribly clear at the moment. It'd be cool if Angron beat the shit out of him, but Vulkan narrowly escaped with his life somehow (maybe due to Alpha Legion efforts?)



Vulkan was kind of busy taking a Nova Cannon to the face.



> I also don't see why *Fang* would rate Sanguinius so low
> Horus felt he was the best candidate for Warmaster, a better choice even than himself.



Well, that is not necessarily due to martial skill, to be fair.

On a random note, in Aurelian, Lorgar actually manages to telepathically force Horus to do his bidding, as well as toying with the Daemon that inhabits Fulgrim (Said Daemon had planetary telepathy, if you recall what he did with the Laer), and nearly killing him. Magnus later in the novella mentally dominates Lorgar when he has had enough of Lorgar's internet tough guy act, doing this despite being only a telepathic projection on Horus' ship, projecting himself from across the galaxy.

Not really relevant to this thread, but gives us a good sense of scale of Magnus' telepathy.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jan 18, 2012)

NemeBro said:


> After De'Shea hints at it, yeah, but I want more, lol. Apparently though, Dembski-Bowden is going to do a World Eaters book of some kind.



Do want!

Isn't James Swallow doing the Blood Angels/Daemons battle? I was hoping A.D.B. would get that one, but a World Eaters tale would be good too.



NemeBro said:


> Vulkan was kind of busy taking a Nova Cannon to the face.



 When? It's been a while since I read the earlier books and to be quite honest...Vulkan isn't mentioned that much except in passing.





NemeBro said:


> Well, that is not necessarily due to martial skill, to be fair.
> 
> On a random note, in Aurelian, Lorgar actually manages to telepathically force Horus to do his bidding, as well as toying with the Daemon that inhabits Fulgrim (Said Daemon had planetary telepathy, if you recall what he did with the Laer), and nearly killing him. Magnus later in the novella mentally dominates Lorgar when he has had enough of Lorgar's internet tough guy act, doing this despite being only a telepathic projection on Horus' ship, projecting himself from across the galaxy.
> 
> Not really relevant to this thread, but gives us a good sense of scale of Magnus' telepathy.



Damn how irritated I still am at not getting hold of Aurelian 

New found respect for Lorgar, but more for Magnus. It just pisses me off that post-Heresy he's bitched _so badly_ (Battle of the Fang, I'm looking at you) when the books indicate he was one of the more exceptional Primarchs. Though to be fair to BofT, if they'd done Magnus justice...he probably would've won and the writers can't have that can they?


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