# Batman vs King Bradley aka Wrath



## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

Batman vs King Bradley aka Wrath

Both have knowledge of each others weaponry and fighting style

Batman has his standard gear everything from his grapple gun, ice pellets, batarangs to explosive batarangs, flash bomb and incendiary grenades

Pre New 52 Batman

Bradley can use his ultimate eye and has all his swords

Both in character

Start 70ft away from each other

Fight takes place in a Graveyard

Batman
Cage of Eden

VS

Wrath
here


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## KiteSora (Aug 6, 2012)

Wrath is a bullet timer.......................


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## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> Wrath is a bullet timer.......................



So is Batman


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## KiteSora (Aug 6, 2012)

Andyman said:


> So is Batman



No, Bats dodges the aim, Wrath LITERALLY dodges bullets plus dude takes down tanks with his swords.


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## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> No, Bats dodges the aim, Wrath LITERALLY dodges the bullets plus dude takes down tanks with his swords.



Batman still has dodged machine gun fire and evaded attacks from Superman

Here take a look at these

Cage of Eden

this


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## KiteSora (Aug 6, 2012)

Andyman said:


> Batman still has dodged machine gun fire and evaded attacks from Superman
> 
> Here take a look at these
> 
> ...



Supes is faster then light. Are you telling me you think Batman, a normal human, is FTL as well?


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## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> No, Bats dodges the aim, Wrath LITERALLY dodges bullets plus dude takes down tanks with his swords.





KiteSora said:


> Supes is faster then light. Are you telling me you think Batman, a normal human, is FTL as well?



Of course not. But are you telling me you think Batman is a normal human. I;m just stating facts Batman has evaded attacks from Superman and other beings of the same level. Hes even bested Aquaman in H2H and Aquman's strength is far greater than humans. Batman is a superhuman no ordinary human could do what he does.


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## FireEel (Aug 6, 2012)

Andyman said:


> Of course not. But are you telling me you think Batman is a normal human. I;m just stating facts Batman has evaded attacks from Superman and other beings of the same level. Hes even bested Aquaman in H2H and Aquman's strength is far greater than humans. Batman is a superhuman no ordinary human could do what he does.



No. Batman is a peak human.

You are mistaking him with Batgod who takes down planet-busters, fights Superman on an even footing, and spars regularly with Wonder Woman.

Oh and he kicked the Spectre too.


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## Samavarti (Aug 6, 2012)

Pretty sure things like evading Superman or fighting Aquaman are outliers,


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## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

FireEel said:


> No. Batman is a peak human.
> 
> You are mistaking him with Batgod who takes down planet-busters, fights Superman on an even footing, and spars regularly with Wonder Woman.
> 
> Oh and he kicked the Spectre too.



Peak human in comics is far greater than peak human in real life.


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## KiteSora (Aug 6, 2012)

Andyman said:


> Peak human in comics is far greater than peak human in real life.



......................................


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## Huntring (Aug 6, 2012)

Andyman said:


> Peak human in comics is far greater than peak human in real life.



Repeat what you typed.  

Know hit yourself.


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## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> ......................................



What? I doubt a peak human in real life could pull off half the things comic peak humans like Batman and Captain America can.


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## KiteSora (Aug 6, 2012)

Andyman said:


> What? I doubt a peak human in real life could pull off half the things comic peak humans like Batman and Captain America can.



Ever heard of stuff like plot armor, jobber aura, outliers, etc.


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## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Repeat what you typed.
> 
> Know hit yourself.



Don't you mean now.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Aug 6, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> Ever heard of stuff like plot armor, jobber aura, outliers, etc.


Pretty much this.


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## KiteSora (Aug 6, 2012)

Just wondering, how fast do you think Bats is? Supes is faster then light and can punch that fast if he wanted but Bats can dodge. Wouldn't that mean he's close to his speed?


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## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> Ever heard of stuff like plot armor, jobber aura, outliers, etc.



Jobber yes

Plot armor yes

Outlier no 

But anyway I should probably stop talking because no matter what I think I have no chance of winning this argument.


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## KiteSora (Aug 6, 2012)

Andyman said:


> Jobber yes
> 
> Plot armor yes
> 
> ...



No, you do. It's just how you're doing it isn't working.


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## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> Just wondering, how fast do you think Bats is? Supes is faster then light and can punch that fast if he wanted but Bats can dodge. Wouldn't that mean he's close to his speed?



How fast?

No I don't think Bats is as fast as Superman and I wasn't even trying to imply I thought that I was simply stating things Batman as done.

In general running speed 

I would say slightly better than most olympic athletes

In reaction

I would say he is fast enough to aim dodge or even just dodge bullets straight up.

Your thoughts?


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## KiteSora (Aug 6, 2012)

Andyman said:


> How fast?
> 
> No I don't think Bats is as fast as Superman and I wasn't even trying to imply I thought that I was simply stating things Batman as done.
> 
> ...



You should add a setting and starting distance for this fight since with the standard stuff it's unfair.


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## familyparka (Aug 6, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Repeat what you typed.
> 
> Know hit yourself.



Says the guy who wrote "know" trying to type "now"


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## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> You should add a setting and starting distance for this fight since with the standard stuff it's unfair.



Alright I did


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 6, 2012)

FireEel said:


> *No. Batman is a peak human.*
> 
> You are mistaking him with Batgod who takes down planet-busters, fights Superman on an even footing, and spars regularly with Wonder Woman.
> 
> Oh and he kicked the Spectre too.



@Bold lol just because DC labelled (and refuses to change it since his feats says otherwise) him as peak human doesnt mean he is peak human him and Captain America for argument sakes has consistent feats to put them above peak human.


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## KiteSora (Aug 6, 2012)

Bats isn't strong enough to win a straight up fight with Wrath due to being physically weaker. He might be able to stun him if he can get a flash bomb off but I don't think Bats has anything to put him down and it'd be unlikely if he could due to the distance being nothing to Wrath.


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## Asune (Aug 6, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> @Bold lol just because DC labelled (and refuses to change it since his feats says otherwise) him as peak human doesnt mean he is peak human him and Captain America for argument sakes has consistent feats to put them above peak human.



Implying that your opinion is superior to a direct statement of its creator?


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 6, 2012)

Asune said:


> Implying that your opinion is superior to a direct statement of its creator?



If you would be so kind show me a direct statement from the creator*s* of Batman. Not the wiki profile.

Whats that you cant find one? Good now next time dont put your foot in your mouth. Thanks.

Batman has busted guys through doors that can withstand missiles, bazooka proof glass. Dodge point blank fire from Deadshot. Dodge a sniper bullet from hearing the bullet which is not only physically impossible but requires above peak human reaction.


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## Asune (Aug 6, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> If you would be so kind show me a direct statement from the creator*s* of Batman. Not the wiki profile.
> 
> Whats that you cant find one? Good now next time dont put your foot in your mouth. Thanks.



Why so agressive? this is a just a debate not a fight.


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 6, 2012)

Asune said:


> Why so agressive? this is a just a debate not a fight.



You make a claim that my statement was wrong with a logic such as well the creators said Batman is peak human . I asked you since you want to go that road show me that statement.  


I am not claiming my opinion is superior but Bats has shown feats that puts him slightly above peak human.

Edit: Didnt mean to sound so aggressive guess it was just the wording.


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## Andyman (Aug 6, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> Bats isn't strong enough to win a straight up fight with Wrath due to being physically weaker. He might be able to stun him if he can get a flash bomb off but I don't think Bats has anything to put him down and it'd be unlikely if he could due to the distance being nothing to Wrath.



It may not matter but I believe Bats is the better H2H fighter


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## Asune (Aug 6, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> You make a claim that my statement was wrong with a logic such as well the creators said Batman is peak human . I asked you since you want to go that road show me that statement.
> 
> 
> I am not claiming my opinion is superior but Bats has shown feats that puts him slightly above peak human.
> ...



Whatever, I don't know where the feat is. Still as all were naturally talking about it, I assumed that it was already something that all aknowledged


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 6, 2012)

Well the term peak human in DC is far different from what it is meant in the real world or any other fiction for that matter. I will just leave it at that.


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## Asune (Aug 7, 2012)

Is that truth? do you have proof?
iirc, the term Street level, Peak human, and others, etc. used on the OBD comes precisely from the comics leverage


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 7, 2012)

This is one topic that has been debated before and they just end it off as Batman is DC peak human. 



> However, when applied to comic books we can easily see characters that inexplicably match the greatest strength and speed feats of humans (such as Batman). These properties in conjunction would be considered Superhuman in real life. In the OBD, these can often be qualified as "*Comic Book Peak Human*".


this

Straight from OBD.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 7, 2012)

Bats is a buller timer


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## Kage no Yume (Aug 7, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> No, Bats dodges the aim, Wrath LITERALLY dodges bullets plus dude takes down tanks with his swords.



Only if you're using anime feats.  He has nothing beyond precog-assisted aim-dodging in the manga.

And he only disabled the tank's treads with his swords, then threw an explosive into the cockpit.  Normal people (well, badass normal people) have taken out tanks solo, with a grenade, without a magic eye.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 7, 2012)

I think Wrath has bullet-timing in the manga too


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## Kage no Yume (Aug 7, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> I think Wrath has bullet-timing in the manga too



Nothing solid.  At least, as far as I know.  If anyone has a solid feat for him (not his fight against Greed's underlings, or against the tank, as both just show aim-dodging), it'd be great if you could post it.


In the anime, he cut the tank's shell in half mid-flight.  In the manga, he just jumped before they fired it.


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 7, 2012)

Bats bullet timing

Literally blocked a bullet



Dodging while he was fighting someone else.



Was already marked by a group of thugs. 


Deflects a sniper bullet after it has been fired.


Point blank dodging  Deadshot.


A Clear dodge.


Literally directly ran towards machine gun fire and just hop over them.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 7, 2012)

Nice post. Seriously this peak human concept means nothing in fiction, a peak human is one who is at the absolute best in human performance in all areas and new records are always being broken. This is an excuse for writers to justify superhuman feats from characters look up Charles Atlas Superpower. We see in fiction like Metal Gear Solid where humans do superhuman stuff. Batman is no exception to this rule.


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## Vespa (Aug 7, 2012)

Kage no Yume said:


> Nothing solid.  At least, as far as I know.  If anyone has a solid feat for him (*not his fight against Greed's underlings, or against the tank, as both just show aim-dodging*), it'd be great if you could post it.
> 
> 
> In the anime, he cut the tank's shell in half mid-flight.  In the manga, he just jumped before they fired it.



Kubera Chapter 92
Kubera Chapter 92

Kubera Chapter 92

Edit: *reads bold. <facepalm>
Sorry, that's all I got.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 7, 2012)

Wrath is an aim dodger? What?

Wrath slashed the bullets out of the air. You can't aim dodge that.

Scar dodged bullets shot at him by the best marksman in the series. A half dead Bradley nearly killed Scar.

Wrath is a solid bullet timer.


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## FireEel (Aug 7, 2012)

Just to clarify, Captain America is not a peak human.

His body doesn't fatigue for one.


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## egressmadara (Aug 7, 2012)

Wrath cuts him up?


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## Kage no Yume (Aug 7, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Wrath is an aim dodger? What?
> 
> Wrath slashed the bullets out of the air. You can't aim dodge that.



He never cut any bullets out of the air.  If you're referring to the scans above, the "GA GA GA GA GA GA..." was the sound of the bullets hitting the ground around him, as his eye let him choose a safe path between them.  The translators messed up on that.  And, as I mentioned, the tank shell feat is anime only.



> Scar dodged bullets shot at him by the best marksman in the series. A half dead Bradley nearly killed Scar.
> 
> Wrath is a solid bullet timer.



No proof he dodged the bullets after they were fired, just that he was too fast for Hawkeye to get a clear shot on.



Supersonic attack speed just doesn't fit within the FMA verse, when Ed and Al are pretty much peak human.


DC, on the other hand, is just batshit insane.  Depending on the author and how much they want to ignore physics/logic, and how much they want to wank Batman, that day of course.


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## Qinglong (Aug 7, 2012)

Pretty sure Scar reacted to a snipe from Hawkeye from a bad angle for him (still got hit but moved enough out of the way that it wasn't fatal, or was I imagining that)


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## Kage no Yume (Aug 8, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> Pretty sure Scar reacted to a snipe from Hawkeye from a bad angle for him (still got hit but moved enough out of the way that it wasn't fatal, or was I imagining that)



Maybe in the anime?  Only thing I remember from the manga is a shot of him crouching down, with bullets hitting the ground around him, then him climbing up a gutter with the same.

No reacting to any bullets after they were already fired, or anything like that.


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## Bender (Aug 8, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> Supes is faster then light. Are you telling me you think Batman, a normal human, is FTL as well?



I really don't care about answering who wins this thread but do tell..how the fuck do you go from bullet timing discussion to Superman v. Batman?


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## KiteSora (Aug 8, 2012)

Bender said:


> I really don't care about answering who wins this thread but do tell..how the fuck do you go from bullet timing discussion to Superman v. Batman?



He used Bats dodging Supes's punches as a feat.


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## Bender (Aug 8, 2012)

KiteSora said:


> He used Bats dodging Supes's punches as a feat.




Merely ridicule the shit out of that comment then ask for elaboration on it. First and lastly, It makes both parties look silly and we have to hear ridiculous shit from the OP.




On another note, Wrath is dead at the drop of a hat.


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## Majinvergil (Aug 8, 2012)

Because someone stated that bats wasn't a bullet timer,witch he is.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 8, 2012)

Andyman said:


> So is Batman



no he isn't and the fact that Cassandra Cane has mercilessly speed blitzed him in the past highlights this quite well

Cass a legit bullet timer can hit him before he even realizes he's been hit and make him cough up blood anime style..again before he even realizes he's been hit all the while proudly thinking he caught her blows



Andyman said:


> Of course not. But are you telling me you think Batman is a normal human. I;m just stating facts Batman has evaded attacks from Superman and other beings of the same level.



he is not FTL while we don't use low end showings here and stick to the high end ones we also use concepts like PIS and CIS and SM vs FL

Batman does not nor ever has possessed FTL reflexes- in case you were not attempting to imply this stating it certainly has this affect.




Andyman said:


> Hes even bested Aquaman in H2H and Aquman's strength is far greater than humans. *Batman is a superhuman no ordinary human could do what he does*.



Karate kid shits all over Batman even while dying..the O sensei has him basically running for his life

yes Batman is blatantly superhuman by real world standards but he's not friggen ftl or a bullet timer



KiteSora said:


> ......................................



he's right about that..but he's also massively full of it at the same time



Huntring said:


> Repeat what you typed.
> 
> Know hit yourself.



someone who can fight through two dozen attackers after being disemboweled is definitely above real life peak human standards

you two aren't helping defeat this guy by ridiculing the one valid point he's made in any of his posts yer just fueling him



Andyman said:


> Jobber yes
> 
> Plot armor yes
> 
> ...



familiarize yourself with those concepts

we don't concede to Batman being ftl any more than we concede to Superman being knocked out by a fence post is a legit feat




Andyman said:


> In general running speed
> 
> I would say slightly better than most olympic athletes



_waitaminute_ what?! now your low balling the fuck out of Batman...

this is confusing as hell 


Andyman said:


> In reaction
> 
> I would say he is fast enough to aim dodge or even just dodge bullets straight up.
> 
> Your thoughts?



being able to dodge bullets is not the same thing as being a bullet timer

Cass has outright bullet timed..Constantine Drakkon has outright bullet timed, hell I think even king snake did it

all of them are above Batman in terms of stats but may lose to him in a comic book, we don't use those defeats unless they involved tech or trickery or prep because of their consistent high end showings being better than Bruces in an H2H nature



KiteSora said:


> Bats isn't strong enough to win a straight up fight with Wrath due to being physically weaker. He might be able to stun him if he can get a flash bomb off but I don't think Bats has anything to put him down and it'd be unlikely if he could due to the distance being nothing to Wrath.



pre reboot Bats carried shit around in his belt that could AOE KO class 50's

he gets off one of his nastier batarangs and wrath is fuuuucckkkeeddd

mind you Bruce has to hope his sonics can stagger Wrath long enough to avoid being diced into sushi...



Asune said:


> Implying that your opinion is superior to a direct statement of its creator?



no but feats are outright superior and Bruce is a comic book peak human..not a real life one

Both Bruce and Cassie Cane have fought for something like eight hours while on fire

Bruce did it while poisoned no less

While Cass is obviously a fucking meta human..Bruce by real world standards is obviously no peak human..

that's like saying because the databooks say Classic Kingpin levels were peak human in strength and durability..that he is..just that. When even Captain America openly admitted he'd be torn to pieces by the man if he got in his range..or how a legit bullet timing meta human who can leg press an armored limo fractured his shins and hurt his knees when he did a full power drop kick into Fisks back

Asune to sum it up: Yeah Bruce and others like him are peak human by comic standards..they aren't by real world standards


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 8, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> no he isn't and the fact that Cassandra Cane has mercilessly speed blitzed him in the past highlights this quite well
> 
> Cass a legit bullet timer can hit him before he even realizes he's been hit and make him cough up blood anime style..again before he even realizes he's been hit all the while proudly thinking he caught her blows
> 
> ...




Bats is a bullet timer, he is not as efficient as Cass but he is one. He has enough consistent feats to show he is not aim dodging and actually dodging gunfire . 

There are different levels of Peak humans in comics while Cass outclass Bats in most physical stats and skill , Cass would get her shit kick in by Bronze Tiger.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 8, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Bats is a bullet timer, he is not as efficient as Cass but he is one.



if he's a bullet timer he's the shittiest one in comics..or at least one of the lowest possible bench marks..




Danger Doom said:


> He has enough consistent feats to show he is not aim dodging and actually dodging gunfire .



and he's got lots of feats of being punked by Bullet timers pretty mercilessly and others showing he tends to do what Rogers used to do back in the day which is take advantage of how slow a normal human is by his standards and basically blitz the shooter and not the bullet



Danger Doom said:


> There are different levels of Peak humans in comics while Cass outclass Bats in most physical stats and skill , Cass would get her shit kick in by Bronze Tiger.



err pretty sure she whooped Bronze Tigers ass didn't she? did the whole leopard claw bit on 'em?

wasn't it Prometheus that somehow titty stomped her? and I recall her being afraid to fight Richard Dragon (then again he one shotted her mom with a bed pan while in a wheel chair..so)??


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 8, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> if he's a bullet timer he's the shittiest one in comics..or at least one of the lowest possible bench marks..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He is on the lowest bench mark, he cant just casually dodge them. 

Another reason why Cass is above him in speed is because Batman has a balance condition in terms of peak conditions. She shits on Bats in terms of speed, reflexes and agility but Bats completely stomps her in terms of strength. 



> err pretty sure she whooped Bronze Tigers ass didn't she? did the whole leopard claw bit on 'em?
> 
> wasn't it Prometheus that somehow titty stomped her? and I recall her being afraid to fight Richard Dragon (then again he one shotted her mom with a bed pan while in a wheel chair..so)??



Actually Richard and BT already fought and I believe the fight was pretty even until Richard coming out on top eventually. (Actually I am assuming it was Bronze Tiger in this fight but many people believe it was him) 


Also I believe that was when BT was training Cass. 



He was showing her something about breaking guards here.


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## Bender (Aug 8, 2012)

@TIWD

Bats beat an opponent Cass couldn't beat as well. Although, he's never beat Shiva like Cass, seeing as how he beat an opponent she could I think it's fair to say he's stronger than her. Especially since in Batgirl #50 he was able to resist the effects of the hallucinating drug and started the fight that happened in that issue.


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 8, 2012)

Well by hype in DC the official Ranking is

Karate Kid
Richard
Shiva
Tiger 
Cass

With a small gap between Shiva, Richard and Tiger. They had a three way tie with each other.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 8, 2012)

Bender said:


> @TIWD
> 
> Bats beat an opponent Cass couldn't beat as well. Although, he's never beat Shiva like Cass, seeing as how he beat an opponent she could I think it's fair to say he's stronger than her. Especially since in Batgirl #50 he was able to resist the effects of the hallucinating drug and started the fight that happened in that issue.



Bats beat opponents Cass couldn't beat as well because he's the god damn batman..but stat wise she craps on him




Danger Doom said:


> Well by hype in DC the official Ranking is
> 
> Karate Kid
> Richard
> ...



Cass being below Shiva stinks on their parts especially when you go by feats Cass has way better striking power and damage soak feats

and errmm Richard one shot Sandra a few times I'd say the gap between the number two guy and the rest of them is pretty wide beyond friendly sparring..

mind you..none of them have a hope of touching Karate Kid..I think we all can agree on that..


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 8, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> mind you..none of them have a hope of touching Karate Kid..I think we all can agree on that..



Depends on how much showboating Kid is willing to do. Living proof Karate >Kryptonians  .


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## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 8, 2012)

Kage no Yume said:


> He never cut any bullets out of the air.  If you're referring to the scans above, the "GA GA GA GA GA GA..." was the sound of the bullets hitting the ground around him, as his eye let him choose a safe path between them.


 No, I'm referring to the fact that the visuals show him slashing in front of his body and bullets impacting either side of him. And he didn't use his Ultimate Eye. He had his eyepatch on. 





> The translators messed up on that.  And, as I mentioned, the tank shell feat is anime only.



I never mentioned it.


> No proof he dodged the bullets after they were fired, just that he was too fast for Hawkeye to get a clear shot on.



I can't find a scan now, but I'm pretty sure that the panel order shows the sequence of events as:

Hawkeye shooting=>Scar ducking down.




> Supersonic attack speed just doesn't fit within the FMA verse, when Ed and Al are pretty much peak human.


Except in the *very first volume of the series* where Ed creates a barrier after Father Cornelllo fires the bullets.

Or much later in the series, where Father fires at May and Al, who wasn't standing near her, intercepts the bullets.

Even if this wasn't the case, what you just said would be a non-sequitur/red herring, seeing as how Wrath is constantly shown to be faster than anyone else in the series.



> DC, on the other hand, is just batshit insane.  Depending on the author and how much they want to ignore physics/logic, and how much they want to wank Batman, that day of course.



And clapping your hands and making pillars appear out of the ground is completely within the laws of physics, right?



Qinglong said:


> Pretty sure Scar reacted to a snipe from Hawkeye from a bad angle for him (still got hit but moved enough out of the way that it wasn't fatal, or was I imagining that)


Also this. IIRC, it was the shot that knocked off his glasses.


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## Samavarti (Aug 8, 2012)

Kage no Yume said:


> Supersonic attack speed just doesn't fit within the FMA verse, when Ed and Al are pretty much peak human.



Ed and AL are far from top tiers, so bad argument, both Scar and Warth has bullet timming feats.


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## Kage no Yume (Aug 9, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> No, I'm referring to the fact that the visuals show him slashing in front of his body and bullets impacting either side of him. And he didn't use his Ultimate Eye. He had his eyepatch on.



He wasn't slashing anything.  He was only running.  I already told you that the sound effects were "GA GA GA GA...", the sound of the bullets hitting the ground.  The translators got it wrong, as they sometimes do.


Also, he can still use his Ultimate Eye to some extent with the eye patch on:

Link removed




> I can't find a scan now, but I'm pretty sure that the panel order shows the sequence of events as:
> 
> Hawkeye shooting=>Scar ducking down.



Panel order isn't always directly chronological.  The ducking didn't have to happen after the bullet was shot, or he could have reacted to the muzzle-flash if he was looking at her.  You could likely calc his reaction speed in that case if you want to.




> Except in the *very first volume of the series* where Ed creates a barrier after Father Cornelllo fires the bullets.



You mean when Ed created a barrier as Father Cornello was shooting a spot several meters away and was trailing the gun up to eventually aim at them?

That's never been accepted as valid evidence that the Elric brothers are supersonic.  First because it's an inconclusive feat, and second because it contradicts the rest of the manga.



> Or much later in the series, where Father fires at May and Al, who wasn't standing near her, intercepts the bullets.



Don't recall that one.  Could you post the scans?



> Even if this wasn't the case, what you just said would be a non-sequitur/red herring, seeing as how Wrath is constantly shown to be faster than anyone else in the series.



But Scar, Ling, and a few others aren't completely blitzed by his speed.  And Ed and Al can hold off Scar without having their heads blown up before they can react.



> And clapping your hands and making pillars appear out of the ground is completely within the laws of physics, right?



Now this is a non-sequitor.  That paragraph had nothing to do with my arguments against Wrath's speed, but were aimed at the arguments about Batman's speed, and were poking fun at the DC writers.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 9, 2012)

> He wasn't slashing anything. He was only running. I already told you that the sound effects were "GA GA GA GA...", the sound of the bullets hitting the ground. The translators got it wrong, as they sometimes do.
> 
> 
> Also, he can still use his Ultimate Eye to some extent with the eye patch on:
> ...



Again, I never said that the GAGAGAGA was him slashing. I was pointing out the nice little line where it shows the path of his sword swinging. The line in front of his body.F

And if his eye is good enough to dodge bullets with his eyepatch on, then why does he take it off when fighting higher tiered characters?



> Panel order isn't always directly chronological. The ducking didn't have to happen after the bullet was shot, or he could have reacted to the muzzle-flash if he was looking at her. You could likely calc his reaction speed in that case if you want to.


I misremembered the Scar vs Hawkeye scene. He saw her just as she was shooting (Although I doubt a bit that he was able to aim-dodge seven shots from a woman who can shoot the hand of a moving target).

But I don't quite get what you're saying here. Occam's razor means that panels are in chronological order unless otherwise stated.



> You mean when Ed created a barrier as Father Cornello was shooting a spot several meters away and was trailing the gun up to eventually aim at them?
> 
> That's never been accepted as valid evidence that the Elric brothers are supersonic. First because it's an inconclusive feat, and second because it contradicts the rest of the manga.



Here is Cornello firing at Ed and Al. Note that there are bullet "sparks" flying in Ed and Al's direction and Ed is most definitely not transmuting anything yet.

Here is Ed, with a fully transmuted wall.

It's only thought of as inconsistent because many people have a preconception of Ed and Al being peak human when their feats would point more towards them being bullet timers.



> Don't recall that one. Could you post the scans?



Here'sFAl's bullet timing.

I know, it wasn't a real gun, but it looks exactly like one and alchemy is able to create real guns. I don't see why Father would have created something that shot projectiles slower than an actual gun.

To do a similar level of damage to bullets they'd need to be moving at a similar speed anyway.



> But Scar, Ling, and a few others aren't completely blitzed by his speed. And Ed and Al can hold off Scar without having their heads blown up before they can react.



Ling was completely outclassed in the fight against Wrath. Scar nearly lost to a half-dead Bradley.

And I've also been trying to prove that the Elric brothers are bullet timers.



> Now this is a non-sequitor. That paragraph had nothing to do with my arguments against Wrath's speed, but were aimed at the arguments about Batman's speed, and were poking fun at the DC writers.



The point I was trying to make was that "peak humans" in FMA also have several feats that put them far above normal humans. I should have used an example like Armstrong's punches being>tank shells.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 9, 2012)

There's also no way in hell that this is aim dodging.

Here'sFAl's bullet timing.


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## Kage no Yume (Aug 9, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Again, I never said that the GAGAGAGA was him slashing. I was pointing out the nice little line where it shows the path of his sword swinging. The line in front of his body.F



You mean those dust clouds?   Because there are no sword swing paths there.



> And if his eye is good enough to dodge bullets with his eyepatch on, then why does he take it off when fighting higher tiered characters?



Because aim-dodging standard soldiers shooting bullets that move in a straight and easily predictable path is easier than predicting an opponent whose attacks don't move in a straight path, can even be altered after they begin, and can nearly keep up with you?

Also, he does have a blind spot when wearing the patch, which Ling knew about and Greedling tried to utilize, which forced him to take off his patch.




> I misremembered the Scar vs Hawkeye scene. He saw her just as she was shooting (Although I doubt a bit that he was able to aim-dodge seven shots from a woman who can shoot the hand of a moving target).



So you think Hawkeye has better reaction speeds than Scar?



> But I don't quite get what you're saying here. Occam's razor means that panels are in chronological order unless otherwise stated.



Occam's Razor says that it's more likely he ducked off-panel than ducking after the shot was already fired.




> Here is Cornello firing at Ed and Al. Note that there are bullet "sparks" flying in Ed and Al's direction and Ed is most definitely not transmuting anything yet.
> 
> Here is Ed, with a fully transmuted wall.
> 
> Yeah, he definitely shot directly at them.



Which is why there's so much debris filling the air and obscuring our view of the Elric brothers?  You can't make all that dust by shooting straight at them like that.



> It's only thought of as inconsistent because many people have a preconception of Ed and Al being peak human when their feats would point more towards them being bullet timers.



Yeah, that one inconclusive feat is completely consistent with all their other supersonic showings...of which there are none.



> Here'sFAl's bullet timing.
> 
> I know, it wasn't a real gun, but it looks exactly like one and alchemy is able to create real guns. I don't see why Father would have created something that shot projectiles slower than an actual gun.
> 
> To do a similar level of damage to bullets they'd need to be moving at a similar speed anyway.



Because while the gun was forming and Father was directing his attack at May, Al was just standing several meters away and waiting until the gun was fully formed and the bullets were in the air before moving?




> Ling was completely outclassed in the fight against Wrath. Scar nearly lost to a half-dead Bradley.
> 
> And I've also been trying to prove that the Elric brothers are bullet timers.



Not outclassed to the point where Wrath could speedblitz him though.  And Wrath wasn't fast enough to dodge the attack through that guy, which must then be a hypersonic attack right?




> The point I was trying to make was that "peak humans" in FMA also have several feats that put them far above normal humans. I should have used an example like Armstrong's punches being>tank shells.



But not supersonic.



> There's also no way in hell that this is aim dodging.
> 
> Here'sFAl's bullet timing.



Because his head wasn't in the bullet's path when they were fired?  Or did I miss a panel showing both them firing and Wrath still looking the other way?

Hell, not to mention the soldiers yelling their intent to shoot and giving an order to fire.  There's no proof that Wrath didn't turn to look before they fired: we only see him before they fire, and after he's already dodged, not during that time.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 9, 2012)

> You mean those dust clouds? Because there are no sword swing paths there.


No, I mean the line in front of Bradley where there is a clear sign of movement where one would swing their sword.



> Because aim-dodging standard soldiers shooting bullets that move in a straight and easily predictable path is easier than predicting an opponent whose attacks don't move in a straight path, can even be altered after they begin, and can nearly keep up with you?
> 
> Also, he does have a blind spot when wearing the patch, which Ling knew about and Greedling tried to utilize, which forced him to take off his patch.


The entire manga has him taking off his eyepatch when it gets serious. It's clear that it helps his precog.

There's also the fact that to dodge a lot of the bullets, he'd need to see them first, as the machine gun was inside the tank, and bullets from machine guns tend to spray all over the place.



> So you think Hawkeye has better reaction speeds than Scar?



I never said that. What I said was that she is a very good shot and considering how close the bullets are together, I doubt it was just aim dodging.



> Occam's Razor says that it's more likely he ducked off-panel than ducking after the shot was already fired.



... What.



> Which is why there's so much debris filling the air and obscuring our view of the Elric brothers? You can't make all that dust by shooting straight at them like that.



At that point in the scan, the bullet "sparks" were clearly very close to Ed and Al. Ed has clearly not started transmuting anything yet.



> Yeah, that one inconclusive feat is completely consistent with all their other supersonic showings...of which there are none.



Except when Ed leapt out of the way of a soldier's bullet (can't find it now). Except when they are portrayed as far faster than normal people. Except when Al intercepts bullets at another point (can't find it now either).



> Because while the gun was forming and Father was directing his attack at May, Al was just standing several meters away and waiting until the gun was fully formed and the bullets were in the air before moving?



And Father would definitely still have fired at May if Al was in the way, I'm sure.



> Not outclassed to the point where Wrath could speedblitz him though. And Wrath wasn't fast enough to dodge the attack through that guy, which must then be a hypersonic attack right?



Yes, he wasn't speedblitzed. I'm actually arguing that a large portion of FMA characters can bullet time. And you need to be a lot faster than someone to speedblitz them. The whole frigging point of that scene was that Wrath couldn't doge it because he didn't see it. And you don't need a hypersonic attack to hit a supersonic fighter anyway. Nice strawman.



> But not supersonic.



Because you say so, despite there being precedent in the series for bullet timing?



> Because his head wasn't in the bullet's path when they were fired? Or did I miss a panel showing both them firing and Wrath still looking the other way?
> 
> Hell, not to mention the soldiers yelling their intent to shoot and giving an order to fire. There's no proof that Wrath didn't turn to look before they fired: we only see him before they fire, and after he's already dodged, not during that time.



The way the scene was drawn, with the bullets being still it's clear that Bradley was slipping in between the bullets.

The panel also makes it look like he just turned his head. The soldiers were firing on the previous page. He hadn't yet jumped off the artillery cannon. And yet here he is dodging bullets.


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## Kage no Yume (Aug 9, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> No, I mean the line in front of Bradley where there is a clear sign of movement where one would swing their sword.



I see.  Say, did he make that similarly smoke/air-like slash line in the air above him too?




> The entire manga has him taking off his eyepatch when it gets serious. It's clear that it helps his precog.



And this contradicts my previous statement how?  He still has some precog with the patch on (enough to easily see a safe path through an exploding train, not to mention magically see that the train is going to explode despite it not being visible).

And predicting the aim of standard soldiers is easier than predicting the adaptable movements of a fighter just below his level.



> There's also the fact that to dodge a lot of the bullets, he'd need to see them first, as the machine gun was inside the tank, and bullets from machine guns tend to spray all over the place.



There were soldiers firing, and the machine gun is on the outside of the tank.  Also, I'm sure the Furher of the army knows his weaponry well enough to predict the spread of a machine gun and just stay out of the area it might hit.




> I never said that. What I said was that she is a very good shot and considering how close the bullets are together, I doubt it was just aim dodging.



Or it's that Scar moved too quickly for her to get a clear shot on him.




> At that point in the scan, the bullet "sparks" were clearly very close to Ed and Al. Ed has clearly not started transmuting anything yet.



Those "sparks" aren't bullets.  Unless you think the gun's spread allow for bullets to go firing off at over 60 degree angles to hit the ground directly in front of Cornello, Ed and Al, and that spot to the far left of Cornello.

Also doesn't explain where all the debris/dust came from.  The room was perfectly clear in the previous scan.

And it still doesn't mesh with the rest of Al and Ed's showings in the manga.





> Except when Ed leapt out of the way of a soldier's bullet (can't find it now). Except when they are portrayed as far faster than normal people. Except when Al intercepts bullets at another point (can't find it now either).



Faster than normal, sure.  A bit above peak human.  Supersonic, no.



> And Father would definitely still have fired at May if Al was in the way, I'm sure.



Because people never fire guns/launch attacks when something jumps in the way at the last second.

Also, this fits with Al and Father's speed since Father isn't exactly a speedster, having lost in H2H against Ed.




> Yes, he wasn't speedblitzed. I'm actually arguing that a large portion of FMA characters can bullet time. And you need to be a lot faster than someone to speedblitz them. The whole frigging point of that scene was that Wrath couldn't doge it because he didn't see it. And you don't need a hypersonic attack to hit a supersonic fighter anyway. Nice strawman.



So he can dodge supersonic bullets mid-flight, but can't parry a subsonic sword thrust.  It's almost as if his precog is what allowed him to avoid attacks so easily, and with it completely fooled, his regular reaction speed isn't supersonic.  You know, the crux of that whole attack plan?




> Because you say so, despite there being precedent in the series for bullet timing?



Because I've yet to see a solid feat, and it's not consistent with the manga series.



> The way the scene was drawn, with the bullets being still it's clear that Bradley was slipping in between the bullets.



No, it's clear that the bullets missed Bradley because his head was well out of their trajectory.



> The panel also makes it look like he just turned his head. The soldiers were firing on the previous page. He hadn't yet jumped off the artillery cannon. And yet here he is dodging bullets.



Again, characters don't only move on panel.  He had time to turn his head between him landing (and while the soldiers were shouting their intent to attack him) and before the soldiers fired.  He didn't have to wait until that panel to move, and thus aim-dodging the bullets would be child's play to him.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Aug 10, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> no he isn't and the fact that Cassandra Cane has mercilessly speed blitzed him in the past highlights this quite well
> 
> Cass a legit bullet timer can hit him before he even realizes he's been hit and make him cough up blood anime style..again before he even realizes he's been hit all the while proudly thinking he caught her blows



In batman/superman: public enemies, batman beat lady shiva, who was cass's equal.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 11, 2012)

> I see. Say, did he make that similarly smoke/air-like slash line in the air above him too?



No, but that's irrelevant as the shape of that dust cloud is different.

The way that the dust parting in front of him is drawn makes it look like he slashed the air.



> And this contradicts my previous statement how? He still has some precog with the patch on (enough to easily see a safe path through an exploding train, not to mention magically see that the train is going to explode despite it not being visible).



Actually no. He began moving after the conductor left them because he found it suspicious. Otherwise the whole strategy of "you can't dodge what you can't see" would have been useless.



> And predicting the aim of standard soldiers is easier than predicting the adaptable movements of a fighter just below his level.



Is predicting _when_ they're going to shoot just as easy?



> Or it's that Scar moved too quickly for her to get a clear shot on him.



Like I said, she managed to hit the hand of a target that Havoc found impossible to hit (Barry's real body). I admit that it's nothing concrete, but I still find it doubtful that she missed 4-6 shots at such close range when Scar barely moved (relatively speaking).



> Those "sparks" aren't bullets.


Then what are they?


> Unless you think the gun's spread allow for bullets to go firing off at over 60 degree angles to hit the ground directly in front of Cornello, Ed and Al, and that spot to the far left of Cornello.



I'm not talking about those bigger flashes. I'm talking about the small sparks that are right in front of Ed and Al.



> Also doesn't explain where all the debris/dust came from. The room was perfectly clear in the previous scan.



Yeah, it was kicked up by the bullets hitting the ground. So? The panel shows the gun shooting at Ed and Al, neither of whom have transmuted a wall yet.



> And it still doesn't mesh with the rest of Al and Ed's showings in the manga.



Except for all those instances of bullet timing I just mentioned.



> Faster than normal, sure. A bit above peak human. Supersonic, no.



A bit of a non sequitur here, but you don't actually need to be supersonic to bullet time (although many of these feats probably would be). Just saying.



> Because people never fire guns/launch attacks when something jumps in the way at the last second.



Father fired several bullets. Unless he has some anger management issues that he needs to take out on Al, I don't see why he'd keep firing into a virtual shield.

There is no indication that Father saw Al in front of May when he shot.

And again, the panel order shows Al jumping in _after_ Father shot the gun. I'm not saying he didn't move at all off panel, but Father definitely shot before he was in front of May.



> Also, this fits with Al and Father's speed since Father isn't exactly a speedster, having lost in H2H against Ed.



So? We're not talking about Father here, we're talking about Al jumping in front of the bullets that Father shot.



> So he can dodge supersonic bullets mid-flight, but can't parry a subsonic sword thrust. It's almost as if his precog is what allowed him to avoid attacks so easily, and with it completely fooled, his regular reaction speed isn't supersonic. You know, the crux of that whole attack plan?



The first he saw of the attack was when he was already pierced, as shown by his gloating, then sudden shock, eyes open wide as he was pierced by the sword. He had no idea the attack was coming and he didn't see it until he was already stabbed.

Or are you suggesting that an injured man who was completely blitzed by Bradley before would be able to hit Bradley if it weren't for his precog?



> No, it's clear that the bullets missed Bradley because his head was well out of their trajectory.



And the movement lines on the left of Bradley's head are there for fun?



> Again, characters don't only move on panel. He had time to turn his head between him landing


And yet the panel makes it look like he just turned his head 





> (and while the soldiers were shouting their intent to attack him)


They were actually already shooting in that panel by the way.


> and before the soldiers fired. He didn't have to wait until that panel to move, and thus aim-dodging the bullets would be child's play to him.



Some more stuff:

Shingeki No Kyojin's out.

How was he able to tell when the tank was going to fire? Not to mention that they thought they hit him, suggesting he was in their firing line before they shot and that he dodged it after it was fired.

Shingeki No Kyojin's out.

Look at the explosion. Look at how high it blasted the train.

Shingeki No Kyojin's out.

Look at how high the train was. Look at how the explosion started occurring as he left the train and was still occurring when he reached safety.

I'm still trying to find the other instances of Ed and Al bullet timing.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Aug 13, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Bats bullet timing
> 
> Literally blocked a bullet
> 
> ...



Scan 1 looks like clear bullet-timing. I don't think one can really questions deflection as anything but what they are unless the person has pre-cog. 

I'm not sure what's happening in the sniper one, but i'll go along with it anyway. 

The only other clear bullet-timing one is the deadshot dodge. All the others are aim-dodging. Specifically, thugs point and shot and Batman is no longer where they were aiming. The technique is perfectly demonstrated in Batman Under the Red Hood.  

The scene where Jason bust into some thugs apt and we see him dancing around their fire really seemed like bullet-timing when i first watched it. However, after I paused my DVD and check it out frame by frame, I saw it was aim-dodging. That's the same aim-dodging those other scans are showing. IMO. 

Anyway, the only other thing I'm going to say is I don't get why people always compared Batman to Captain America. Ignoring both of their PIS stuff, Steve hangs with and beats the shit out of meta's way more consistently. And the thing is steve does it with nothing more than a damn shield. He's a super solider! Seriously....

Ps: Superman/Batman= I thought that wasn't totally canon. Regardless, ladyshiva was mind controlled by Gorilla Grodd at the time making the feat a non-feat.


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## Kage no Yume (Aug 14, 2012)

Sorry, last few days have been rather hectic at work .




ThanatoSeraph said:


> No, but that's irrelevant as the shape of that dust cloud is different.
> 
> The way that the dust parting in front of him is drawn makes it look like he slashed the air.



And deflected all the bullets down to the ground around him with that?

That "slash" was nothing more than him drawing his sword.  You can see the 
"hyuu" of him unsheathing it in the previous panel.  It's not him blocking multiple bullets.



> Actually no. He began moving after the conductor left them because he found it suspicious. Otherwise the whole strategy of "you can't dodge what you can't see" would have been useless.



Well, glad that plothole is filled up.  Doesn't do anything to him stating that his eye, while covered by his patch, allowed him to find a safe path through the explosion though.



> Is predicting _when_ they're going to shoot just as easy?



Considering his extreme eye for detail (yeah, I just made that joke), yes.  One does have to pull the trigger before the gun fires you know, and his eye allows him to know when they'll perform such a basic action, and the path the bullets will follow.



> Like I said, she managed to hit the hand of a target that Havoc found impossible to hit (Barry's real body). I admit that it's nothing concrete, but I still find it doubtful that she missed 4-6 shots at such close range when Scar barely moved (relatively speaking).



She could read Barry's body's movements, but not a trained fighter, who has experience fighting against firearms, and who was faster than Barry's decomposing body.



> Then what are they?
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about those bigger flashes. I'm talking about the small sparks that are right in front of Ed and Al.



Muzzle-flashes, spent shells, etc.  



> Yeah, it was kicked up by the bullets hitting the ground. So? The panel shows the gun shooting at Ed and Al, neither of whom have transmuted a wall yet.



Like with Scar's dodging of Hawkeye's bullets, Wrath fighting those soldiers, etc. multiple actions are sometimes compacted into a single panel.

It would make little sense if Al and Ed were to just stand there while Cornello led his aim up to them, to the point where they were completely surrounded by dust, and then for Ed to move at supersonic speeds while bullets are already a few feet away from him (if those "sparks" are bullets like you claim) before making a wall come up at even faster supersonic speeds to block those bullets.


It would make a lot of sense if Arakawa just wanted to heighten suspense by showing Cornello shooting at the duo, who get a nice cover of dust to hide their actions from Cornello and the reader, and for Ed to do his alchemy off-panel to surprise the reader on the next page.



> Except for all those instances of bullet timing I just mentioned.



All those instances you couldn't find ?



> A bit of a non sequitur here, but you don't actually need to be supersonic to bullet time (although many of these feats probably would be). Just saying.



Especially when you've got a magic eye that can read projectile paths and the soldiers shooting said projectiles with ease.



> Father fired several bullets. Unless he has some anger management issues that he needs to take out on Al, I don't see why he'd keep firing into a virtual shield.
> 
> There is no indication that Father saw Al in front of May when he shot.
> 
> And again, the panel order shows Al jumping in _after_ Father shot the gun. I'm not saying he didn't move at all off panel, but Father definitely shot before he was in front of May.






Yeah, all examples involving guns were made by supersonic/bullet-timing characters/people.


As I said before, Father is not a speedster.  He just made the gun and fired off whatever shots he had in it, not expecting Al to jump in front at the last second.




> So? We're not talking about Father here, we're talking about Al jumping in front of the bullets that Father shot.



You're the one saying that Father's reactions are fast enough to stop shooting if Al jumped in at the last second.



> The first he saw of the attack was when he was already pierced, as shown by his gloating, then sudden shock, eyes open wide as he was pierced by the sword. He had no idea the attack was coming and he didn't see it until he was already stabbed.
> 
> Or are you suggesting that an injured man who was completely blitzed by Bradley before would be able to hit Bradley if it weren't for his precog?



What I've been saying, since the beginning, is that Bradley's "supersonic bullet dodging" has been just aim-dodging and precog assisted aim-dodging.  His base speed is a bit faster than Ling (also nowhere near supersonic), with a few stumbles here and there due to his old age.



> And the movement lines on the left of Bradley's head are there for fun?



They show that he turned his head.  Not when.  Also, most (if not all) of the lines are actually the speedlines radiating from the bullets.



> And yet the panel makes it look like he just turned his head
> They were actually already shooting in that panel by the way.



It was to emphasize that Wrath was now looking their way.  Which meant they were about to get slaughtered.

And as I said before, Wrath had time to look their way between when he landed and when they started shooting.  Unless you've got a panel showing both them shooting and Wrath looking in a completely off direction, you can't say he didn't know how to dodge thanks to his eye.




> Some more stuff:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> How was he able to tell when the tank was going to fire? Not to mention that they thought they hit him, suggesting he was in their firing line before they shot and that he dodged it after it was fired.



Well, considering that the tank's cannon had to move quite a bit to aim at him, as well as knowing the usual amount of time it takes to lock on a target, and also possibly being able to see the shooter through the slot with that eye of his (which he was apparantly locked onto as his next target), not to mention his speed being enough to make his movements nearly invisible to normal people...really, the explanations besides him jumping after the tank fired are boundless.



> Link removed
> 
> Look at the explosion. Look at how high it blasted the train.
> 
> ...



Explosions do not work that way.  The explosion would have been over before the bridge began to fall.

That's just debris shooting up due to the falling train and bridge.


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