# Gaara vs Terra vs Toph



## Level7N00b (Aug 7, 2010)

I don't even know dude. I was bored.

Location: Canyon filled with rocks and sand
Mindset: IC
Speed: Equal

Do it.


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## Phantom Kingt (Aug 7, 2010)

Wow really? None of them rely on speed(when you control Earth why would you?) so speed equalization was pointless. Gaara already beat Toph and Terra was only strong when being controlled like a puppet by Slade. Gaara rapes.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 7, 2010)

Phantom Kingt said:


> Wow really? *None of them rely on speed*(when you control Earth why would you?) so speed equalization was pointless. Gaara already beat Toph and Terra was only strong when being controlled like a puppet by Slade. Gaara rapes.



You can never be too careful with certain people about.


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## Phantom Kingt (Aug 7, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> You can never be too careful with certain people about.



My point still stands.


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 7, 2010)

Yeah I'll go with Gaara myself.


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Gaara has no hope against toph whatsoever, and Terra is a tricky subject. I have absolutely no idea which one would win but since Terra has some sort of flight inclination, I lean torwards her.
Mind you I only know Cartoon Terra


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## SasuOna (Aug 7, 2010)

Gaara never beat Toph that match was inconclusive having said that Toph has a lot more feats than either of them she should be able to win this.

If this is the new Terra though then she might just stomp both of them


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Toph chucks meteor bracelet at Gaara's head and he dies

This is now a Terra Vs Toph thread


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## Gundam Meister (Aug 7, 2010)

Garra kills Toph and the match ends up been between Garra and Terra


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Solid counter for an outstanding post


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## Black Sabbath II (Aug 7, 2010)

Giving Gaara the advantage by placing him in a sandy area is not a good idea.


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Toph chucks meteor bracelet at Gaara's head and he dies
> 
> This is now a Terra Vs Toph thread



+1 post count


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## Black Sabbath II (Aug 7, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> +1 post count



Even bigger rape since Toph would destroy terra. If this is terra from the tv show anyway. She wasn't that impressive.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 7, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> Giving Gaara the advantage by placing him in a sandy area is not a good idea.



Yes it is. Even I don't hate Gaara.


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Rather iffy for me. Won't pronounce myself much on that front.


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## Black Sabbath II (Aug 7, 2010)

Switch Terra with someone who doesn't suck.  Bitch gave me a headache. BB shoulda just boned her and kicked her out.


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## SasuOna (Aug 7, 2010)

Which Terra is this?
This Terra is great and a lot more powerful then the original


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## Level7N00b (Aug 7, 2010)

Cartoon version. Current Gaara and End of series Toph.


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## Phantom Kingt (Aug 7, 2010)

The fact that they are fighting in a sandy area and the fact that Toph has a hard time "seeing" on sand makes it a rape in Gaara's favor. Need I remind you people of the ridiculous amount of sand Gaara used against Deidara?


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## Devil Kings (Aug 7, 2010)

Op should have add Taras from Witch Hunter.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 7, 2010)

Devil Kings said:


> Op should have add Taras from Witch Hunter.



Witch Hunter isn't my thing.

Maybe Gao from Flame of Recca?


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## hammer (Aug 7, 2010)

wait if the area is sandy dosnt that mean toph cant find her way?


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## Level7N00b (Aug 7, 2010)

I think Toph got better at Sandbending and seeing on it during the end.


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 7, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> I think Toph got better at Sandbending and seeing on it during the end.



How tho will always remain unknown.


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## Belly Ranks (Aug 7, 2010)

Gaara sadly rapes, Terra already loses a horrible death to Gaara alone, her best feat was awakening a dormant volcano, otherwise her attacks are around street level as when she was fighting the teen titans, the best she has is those earth golems, who gaara could easily stomp.

Toph, now can't see sand all to well, it makes her vision blurry, Gaara just gives her a sand waterfall grave.


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Toph by the end of the series has long overcome her handicap of sand.

And you have to bear in mind "fuzzy" for toph is simply not being able to sense heart beats and footing of ants on a hill.

She hardly need detail if she simply thinks "crush"

While her range is shorter than gaara's her strength is vastly superior.

Not to mention meteor shuriken to the skull for an instant kill.


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## hammer (Aug 7, 2010)

wouldnt she have to break threw his autodefence which held up agenst dediras c2 plus he can fly


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Toph with but a few trace particles can fuck up steel like wet toilet paper.
As evidenced by the kimimaro fight, Gaara can't even come close.
She can damn well take  two grains of sand from his defense and explode his brain with them


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## hammer (Aug 7, 2010)

to be fair gaara has come along way since pre skip, I would consider tanking a bombfrom c2 adecent feat and blockig raikages kick


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## SasuOna (Aug 7, 2010)

Whats stopping Toph from hardening all of Gaara's sand and crushing him to death?


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Not that long
Also, I can put science on it if you'dd like. I had Material Characteristics this semester and I'm quite qualified to answer points relative to steel calcium and sand.
It'll only make gaara look worse though

I can also point out that the only thing that separates sand from boulders of the same rock is size
while grain wise, Gaara has a much higer range, his strength per grain is much lower, given how boulders are to heavy for him to lift, something that troubles toph not. She can even fuse his sand into boulders he cannot manipulate.
What this means is that while gaara can control, like a trillion grains of sand, he uses an equal amount of very low force between all of them.
Along with bending steel by using nothing but trace particles you've got what I like to call the Asgard Feat where she holds up that huge pallace against the owl spirit all by herself  with her strength
So while Gaara's got the numbers, but Toph has got the quality by far. And what little toph needs is already on Gaara's face

So instead of dwelling on it, let's just both agree that Meteor Buzzsaw to the head would be quite terrible.


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

hammer said:


> blockig raikages kick



lol @ kishi forgetting Sand is meant to be choped up by thunder chakra. I guess his reverse pokemon logic can't always hold up


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## hammer (Aug 7, 2010)

yea kishi was a fuck up at the end of rescuse gaara arc


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Yeah, the end of Rescue Gaara is definitely for me the great big bench mark of the end of good naruto.


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## hammer (Aug 7, 2010)

I wouldthink op should restrict gaara flying though if this is pre shkakku extraction and psot skip he would pose a serious threat.


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## Banhammer (Aug 7, 2010)

Toph is able to see airborne earth, as evidenced by beginning of season three where she dusts catapulted projectiles after they've been shot from a ship away.

This ability is first hinted at from her first appearance where she manipulates dust and the lake battle where she crushes flying rock gloves, but they were never crystal clear evidence as when it was on the above statement.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 8, 2010)

hammer said:


> I wouldthink op should restrict gaara flying though if this is pre shkakku extraction and psot skip he would pose a serious threat.



Its current Gaara.


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## hammer (Aug 8, 2010)

I reallydo need to brush up onavatar


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## Kirito (Aug 8, 2010)

MAKE TOPH SEE. Or rather, make everyone else blind. Toph can own Terra. Terra is just a bitch who doesn't deserve BB. She should've joined the team and left it at that. 

Gaara vs Toph is a problem ... NOT. Toph goes metalbending, dons metal armor, proceeds to fuck Gaara ... unless Gaara flies


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 8, 2010)

Why are people even bring up metalbending *when it useless here!*

Once again Gaara is the one with edge here. I love toph too people, she was one of the best thing about AtLA, but she isn't gonna beat him here.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

because it's a display of superior strength in terrakinesis.


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## Kirito (Aug 8, 2010)

Oh hello there

why would it even be useless? it's because "Kyuubi has been calced to have busted 30000 inch thick steel walls, and Kyuubi = Naruto, and Naruto isn't Hokage while Gaara is already Kazekage" amirite 

come on. although I know Toph is fucked when gaara either brings out shuukaku or flies, she has a fighting chance. remember, sand contains metal particles.


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 8, 2010)

jasper222 said:


> Oh hello there
> 
> why would it even be useless? it's because "Kyuubi has been calced to have busted 30000 inch thick steel walls, and Kyuubi = Naruto, and Naruto isn't Hokage while Gaara is already Kazekage" amirite
> 
> come on. although I know Toph is fucked when gaara either brings out shuukaku or flies, she has a fighting chance. remember, *sand contains metal particles.*



Since when?

And it is useless because there is no metal (beside her band)here, and Gaara is better at controlling sand.


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## Captain Smack (Aug 8, 2010)

> Terra's powers are currently limitless: while she limits herself to harmless feats as growing large formations of rock with the slowness needed to avoid a geological hazard and using floating rocks as projectiles and to levitate around,Gerard Shugel, the Ultra-Humanite, while residing in her body was able to shift nearby tectonic plates with ease or cause volcanoes to erupt at his will: he surmises that Terra has always had this amazing amount of power, but willingly chose to limit herself in fear of the damage she could deal.



Terra has gaara trumped.


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## Kirito (Aug 8, 2010)

SunnyMoonstone said:


> Since when?
> 
> And it is useless because there is no metal (beside her band)here, and Gaara is better at controlling sand.







last time I checked, iron = metal.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Toph can sand bend  an entire replica of Omashu out of memory house by house, street by street brick by brick with respective inhabitants to boot with one though but mr "arms and orb" is better at it


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

jasper222 said:


> last time I checked, iron = metal.



but iron does not contain microscopic trace amounts of earth in it.
Toph is not a magnopath. But metal bending is unecessary, unless you mean throw the meteor band at gaara's skull, in which, yes, he imediately dies.


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 8, 2010)

jasper222 said:


> last time I checked, iron = metal.


Iron fillings=/=sand even in what you just posted.



Banhammer said:


> Toph can sand bend  an entire replica of Omashu out of memory house by house, street by street brick by brick with respective inhabitants to boot with one though but mr "arms and orb" is better at it



And that prove she's better at sand control for combat purposes how?


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

It prooves she's better at fine precise control, and a more powerfull smarter brain.
Metal Bending and the Library feat prove she's much stronger with her range.


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Not that long
> Also, I can put science on it if you'dd like. I had Material Characteristics this semester and I'm quite qualified to answer points relative to steel calcium and sand.
> It'll only make gaara look worse though
> 
> ...


More fanfiction in this post than in Fuujin Kyuubi

Post some feats rather than conjecture


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

And Fuujin disagrees with me, therefore erasing all traces of self doubt, by calling things like the central pillar of sedimentiology "fanfiction"


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Ahahaha the speed at which you flee to edit OBDwiki is hilarious

But seriously, "strength per grain"? Gaara can't control boulders because they are too heavy to lift? Are you crazy? He's lifted tonnes of sand at the same time. Weight has nothing to do with why he can't lift boulders.

Stop. Making. Shit. Up. And. Wanking. To. Toph.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Yes.
Therefore his controll range is in the trillions of sand grains, but the strength on which he can lift each of them is on the fractions of newtons.
He has a trillion little "ams" and all of them are weaaaaak.

Quality Vs Quantity.

Also, talking in periods is not cool. U mad?


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Yes.
> Therefore his controll range is in the *trillions* of sand grains, but the strength on which he can lift each of them is on the *fractions of newtons*.
> *He has a trillion little "ams" and all of them are weaaaaak.*
> 
> ...


Everything in bold is absolutely baseless. Like I said, stop making shit up.

And fractions of newtons? You realise he can move his sand faster than high velocity explosions right?


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## MisterShin (Aug 8, 2010)

Toph wins 

Gaara flies, Toph tunnels underground. 
Gaara can only manipulate sand by putting chakra into it. 
Toph can react to all Gaara attacks with her superior senses. 
Toph can don Earth-Armor and Metal-Armor. 
Toph has far superior control & power over earth element than Gaara.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Talking. Like. This. Is. Retarded. Yes.

And everything else is crystal clear in the manga. Usually, because people don't really think about it, and as how I am a geo-enviromental engineering guy, I kinda have to, I could go on  as a courtesy about this in an elaborate wall of text that you'd be kind enough to promptly forget three posts after.
But then again, you're fuujin, so why should I?
Keep on Xenu's good work sir.  Geology is fanfiction


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Talking. Like. This. Is. Retarded. Yes.
> 
> And everything else is crystal clear in the manga. Usually, because people don't really think about it, and as how I am a geo-enviromental engineering guy, I kinda have to, I could go on  as a courtesy about this in an elaborate wall of text that you'd be kind enough to promptly forget three posts after.
> But then again, you're fuujin, so why should I?
> Keep on Xenu's good work sir.  Geology is fanfiction


Ohhh wow Ban, you're soo intelligent. I can tell from the way you talk and hype yourself and post irrelevant drivel about your chosen route of study! This must mean you're trustworthy when it comes to analysing the physics of fictional universes as well at Toph hentai.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

It sure does baby.
Now why don't you go get your junior telescope and go look for a moon busting fox?


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm sorry maybe that was rude of me. I know, let's consult with someone that knows at least Ethics 101.
I hear that's a Law School class.
You know anyone that has the most basic knowledge of it Fuujin?
Anyone at all?
I mean, simple things. Things you wouldn't get schooled exposed and embarrassed at by casual quizzing


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Let me tell you about the curious case of Fagan v MPC
He stopped his car on a police officer's foot, you see?
Judges discussed and derived but couldn't decide
How the relevant mens rea applied
Fagan told the cop "fuck you, you can wait"
And delayed moving the car, it was fate
See Mr Fagan thought he was invincible
Due to Ashworth's correspondence principle
But in the end they decided it was continuing act
And he was convicted, that's a fact


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## God Movement (Aug 8, 2010)

Fuujin said:


> Everything in bold is absolutely baseless. Like I said, stop making shit up.
> 
> And fractions of newtons? You realise he can move his sand faster than high velocity explosions right?



Ban, I think you should answer to this post.


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## Saturday (Aug 8, 2010)

Gaara makes the land Toph is standing on levitate. She can't see so she is finished. so then it's Gaara vs Terra hmmmm


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

God Movement said:


> Ban, I think you should answer to this post.



Seriously?


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## God Movement (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Seriously?



I really don't see why not


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

God Movement said:


> I really don't see why not



Sigh



The things I do for love


Of post count


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Fuujin said:


> Everything in bold is absolutely baseless. Like I said, stop making shit up.
> 
> And fractions of newtons? You realise he can move his sand faster than high velocity explosions right?



As any person with the quaintest familiarization of dialog will share, by throwing a trillion I never even attempted to get a solid number.
It was just a generalized figure because well

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Z0raWIHXk[/YOUTUBE]

There is anything between 7 to 40 thousand grains of sand per cup.
Let's put an average and say twenty.
Every 50 cups is a million grains of sand.
So let's pointlessly assume the village blankie has well over 50 million cups. 
Which being 11 thousand cubic meters more or less is in fact a hilariously huge exaggeration. and far too kind for gaara.
It's still a completely irrelevant inane and retarded point but it's now therefore no longer baseless which should please fuujin

Now as sedimentology states, all sediments are simply igneous or metamorphic rocks or minierals made mostly of silicate, who's class is divided by size.



See the chart.

Gaara is unable to lift boulders as boulders. He may come up with the equivalent mass in sand to pick it up, using a principle of imersion, countering the weight with an equal amount of weight in sand, but lifting the boulder made of the exact same thing as the sand?
No, he can't.
Too heavy of an individual, as there is absolutely no spatial criteria for levitation.
A centimeter is not too possibly large to understand.

The only other possible thing Fuujin thinks I'm lying is the fractions of Newtons.
Fortunately I don't have to explain how one grain of sand weighs that much less than a newton, which is roughly 100 grams. Which is like three ounces?

Finally Gaara's sand is not super sonic.
This one is old as hags bones and will not be dweleved upon
Specially because you're gonna throw it again like some sort of Drew Barrymore Infected zombie next gaara thread so I might aswell just wait for that one.
Outrun the fireball is not nor has it ever been an acepted trope in the OBD but if it were, Gaara's sand is pre-emptive, not reactive post fact.
To point out the retardedness of such a claim , I will kindly remind everyone Deidara's flight was certainly not supersonic, nor surely should it be considered close, specially when thinking of the time took to get in and out of the desert when he would have the power to cross the world in hours, or to get out of a crack,  and how he could lolpwn his sand hunt all day


And while Gaara's sand pre-emptiveness is not controllable, Toph's certainly is.


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Gaara is unable to lift boulders as boulders. He may come up with the equivalent mass in sand to pick it up, using a principle of imersion, countering the weight with an equal amount of weight in sand, but lifting the boulder made of the exact same thing as the sand?
> No, he can't.
> Too heavy of an individual, as there is absolutely no spatial criteria for levitation.
> A centimeter is not too possibly large to understand.


If he can lift an amount of sand with equal weight to a large rock but for some reason can't lift the large rock composed of the same material then the first criterion that should be considered IS the spatial one. Your own lack of logic defeats you. I don't have to lift a finger.


> The only other possible thing Fuujin thinks I'm lying is the fractions of Newtons.
> Fortunately I don't have to explain how one grain of sand weighs that much less than a newton, which is roughly 100 grams. Which is like three ounces?


More force means more speed. Now tell me geological genius, how many newtons of force would you have to apply to a grain of sand to make it move at 800m/s?


> Finally Gaara's sand is not super sonic.
> This one is old as hags bones and will not be dweleved upon
> Specially because you're gonna throw it again like some sort of Drew Barrymore Infected zombie next gaara thread so I might aswell just wait for that one.
> Outrun the fireball is not nor has it ever been an acepted trope in the OBD but if it were, Gaara's sand is pre-emptive, not reactive post fact.
> To point out the retardedness of such a claim , I will kindly remind everyone Deidara's flight was certainly not supersonic, nor surely should it be considered close, specially when thinking of the time took to get in and out of the desert when he would have the power to cross the world in hours, or to get out of a crack,  and how he could lolpwn his sand hunt all day


Oh yes it is...and has consistently been shown as such. Ever since kid Gaara escaped Yashamaru's explosion through a reactive sand shield.

Nowadays it moves in time to blitz amaterasu (a jutsu that moves as fast as Sasuke's gaze) and a kick from raikage (who rivals Minato in speed).

Speaking of tropes, 


> And while Gaara's sand pre-emptiveness is not controllable, Toph's certainly is.


Gaara can also control his sand pre-emptively...and can control enough of it to change the battlefield and crush Toph.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Fuujin- the guy with village wide range of sand can't lift a centimeter of rock because it's too big.
Nice failure at understanding the basic concept of gravity as a spatial pressure fact.

And sonic sand? No. That shit did not fly in the five thousand Gaara threads before this one, I'll be damned if it'll be peddled here.

I'm a Zodiac. I deserve better trolls.


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Fuujin- the guy with village wide range of sand can't lift a centimeter of rock because it's too big.
> Nice failure at understanding the basic concept of gravity as a spatial pressure fact.


The way his chakra interacts with the rocks changes if they become too big. Simple explanation right there.

This point is moot anyway. You have no conclusion from the fact that Gaara can't lift particles above a certain size. *What exactly is your point* and why are you dragging me into this debate about possibilities for why size rather than weight restricts Gaara's control?


> And sonic sand? No. That shit did not fly in the five thousand Gaara threads before this one, I'll be damned if it'll be peddled here.


Like I care. If masses are too ignorant to see sense that's not my problem.


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## God Movement (Aug 8, 2010)

Say Fuujin, aren't you the guy that said Kyuubi can moonbust?


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Size is not a relevant universal property, there's an entire universal dimension in our world that measures no more than five meters across and happens to be everywhere.
Spatial pressure. Weight. Size does not exist without properties and it's property is weight.
Four year olds know this as Newton's first law of not being retarded.


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## Big Bοss (Aug 8, 2010)

Can someone post some feats of Toph?

It would really help since I don't know to much about her.

Thanks.


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## Extasee (Aug 8, 2010)

Gaara sand coffins Terra before she can blink and shoves huge sand dick down Toph's throat. The End.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> Can someone post some feats of Toph?
> 
> It would really help since I don't know to much about her.
> 
> Thanks.



I don't know. Bending steel like paper using only microscopic trace amounts of earth, holding up the Spirit Library against it's weight and the Owl Spirit's own will, degree of pre-cog, clogging up the Giant Drill and using meteor metal band seem the best.


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> I don't know. Bending steel like paper using only microscopic trace amounts of earth, holding up the Spirit Library against it's weight and the Owl Spirit's own will, *degree of pre-cog*, clogging up the Giant Drill and using meteor metal band seem the best.



Bold is slightly inaccurate, but yes those are her best feats. Would be nice to *see* them tho, Ban.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

since it's an animation to get screen shots demands a bit more effort than what I have available to me at this time.

And I'm aware it's a bit misleading, but it's why I put "degree" on it.


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

God Movement said:


> Say Fuujin, aren't you the guy that said Kyuubi can moonbust?


That was a joke given that, at the time, Kyuubi "busted" out of a miniature satellite.

I would have thought this would be obvious to most but I guess my reputation precedes me.


Banhammer said:


> Size is not a relevant universal property, there's an entire universal dimension in our world that measures no more than five meters across and happens to be everywhere.
> Spatial pressure. Weight. Size does not exist without properties and it's property is weight.
> Four year olds know this as Newton's first law of not being retarded.


I'll repeat. Please oblige me with your POINT. How does that affect the battle at hand? Stop dodging like Neo.

Oh and size affects the spread of weight. As does surface area. Sand has more surface area than a rock of the same weight.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

so what? if the moronic notion that an amount of surface area was relevant to his abilities then his terrikinetic poweress should go up as surface goes down.
Lifting rocks would be easier than lifting sand.
You know, instead of occam razoring it and realizing that heavier rocks of the same material cannot be lifted because they're too heavy as a unit.


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## Soledad Eterna (Aug 8, 2010)

Gaara is alot more durable than Toph, if his sand is not doing anything there is always the chance of him going hand to hand.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Gaara is not durable enough to withstand a fraction of an ounce of sand with enough force that can bend steel.
Certainly not tough enough to withstand meteor metal.


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## Soledad Eterna (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Gaara is not durable enough to withstand a fraction of an ounce of sand with enough force that can bend steel.
> Certainly not tough enough to *withstand meteor metal*.



Unless Toph can make metal out of nowhere, she can't do that. And the same thing you said applies to her.


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> so what? if the moronic notion that an amount of surface area was relevant to his abilities then his terrikinetic poweress should go up as surface goes down.
> Lifting rocks would be easier than lifting sand.
> You know, instead of occam razoring it and realizing that heavier rocks of the same material cannot be lifted because they're too heavy as a unit.


*WHAT IS YOUR POINT?*

Do you even know it? I'm guessing you don't because this is the third time I've asked you and each time before you've dodged the question.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

veget0010 said:


> Unless Toph can make metal out of nowhere, she can't do that. And the same thing you said applies to her.



Her meteor metal bracelet is part of her accepted standard equipment


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Fuujin said:


> *WHAT IS YOUR POINT?*



U madd doggy?


			
				Banhammer said:
			
		

> while Gaara's got the numbers, but Toph has got the quality by far




On a side note, with the amount of sand availuable in the field Toph can just you know, clap and all the sand is now boulders.


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## Marth6789 (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't think anyone realizes that Gaara's Sand is not a doton technique... His sand has a non-elemental affiliation. Therefore it makes perfect sense why he can't levitate boulders seeing as how he makes sand move is by using his chakra, so by breaking apart boulders and ground minerals with his sand he is pumping his chakra into whatever his sand breaks apart.

And Gaara has never tried to lift a fucking boulder in the entire manga... Banhammer get that bull shit outta here


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> U madd doggy?
> 
> On a side note, with the amount of sand availuable in the field Toph can just you know, clap and all the sand is now boulders.


No, see that's not a point. That's a phrase that seems to sound good on the surface but does nothing for intelligent debate.

Toph has the quality? What "quality"? This isn't quantity vs quality. This is sand vs rock. And Gaara can lift a lot more weight than Toph, sand or no sand. And can break rock apart incredibly quickly to create new sand, thereby counteracting Toph merging sand into larger rock...and speaking of such a feat...since when can she do that? And his sand can move at massively faster speeds than her rock.

I don't understand how you think she can win. Especially since her sensory abilities are nullified by Gaara simply flying or standing still as he usually does.


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

Toph can sense heartbeats, and airborne earth, and turn whatever sand is one the field instantly into solid rock as opposed to gaara who has to break it. So no "staying invisible by sitting still airborne.

Even though she controll a smaller number of earth a time, the one she does controll is with vastly greater strength than gaara.
It's like pitting a guy with machine guns that throw sponge balls against someone with a bazzooka.
That's quality over quantity.
The points to back this up have allready been spread out through several threads including this one which makes the one point where you forget all about them the more ironic


----------



## hammer (Aug 8, 2010)

dosnt she sense airborn earth using the fact its coming at her and she feels the air?


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Toph can sense heartbeats, and airborne earth, and turn whatever sand is one the field instantly into solid rock as opposed to gaara who has to break it. So no "staying invisible by sitting still airborne.
> 
> Even though she controll a smaller number of earth a time, the one she does controll is with vastly greater strength than gaara.
> It's like pitting a guy with machine guns that throw sponge balls against someone with a bazzooka.
> ...


Sasori with 100 fodder puppets overwhelmed Chiyo with her 10 elite and unique ones.

No amount of Toph's quality can stand up to Gaara's superior sand control. I mean, the can can make working eyeballs from his sand. That's true control and precision. That's true quality. He has blocked nuke-level blasts with his sand and has shown immense speed with its usage. Speed equalised means Gaara is slower, his sand is still supersonic.

Toph gets crushed before she can sense a single heartbeat. Good day to you sir.


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## hammer (Aug 8, 2010)

I wouldnt call c2 :nuke level" but it should be a few blocks at the very least


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

Enough to destroy Suna. So looking at a blast diameter of 2km. That's small nuke level.


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## hammer (Aug 8, 2010)

I dont remembering it destroying all of suna


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## Fuujin (Aug 8, 2010)

hammer said:


> I dont remembering it destroying all of suna


Do you not?
short paper


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

short paper

and here is the blast not being bigger than a few blocks


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

hammer said:


> doesn't she sense airborn earth using the fact its coming at her and she feels the air?



I think it's more like because it's earth. She senses earth and things touching it. She couldn't feel Aang when he keeps himself up suing air.
Se can't also for example see through water.

She could however see dust and airborne boulders shot from isolated places.


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## hammer (Aug 8, 2010)

ah ok        .


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## Banhammer (Aug 8, 2010)

No, no it doesn't. It's right there
And buildings in suna are tall not big


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## Stermor (Aug 9, 2010)

toph requires a few seconds of focus to use tiny bits of sand.... gaara can blitz toph before she can use a thought... 

also if you use gaara's move skills (dispersing into sand) i assume toph can't control the sand that makes up gaara. gaara cannot be beat by toph


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Aug 9, 2010)

This thread is amusing. It's fn to see how much bias (dislike or likee=/ purposeful uplifting or downplaying) of series  can change people's view of who wins. 

As to the winner, I don't know. Too much sand for my taste. I prefer my fights with a little more variety.


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## Banhammer (Aug 9, 2010)

Stermor said:


> gaara can blitz toph before she can use a thought...



This is stupid even if speed wasn't adjusted for the match


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## SasuOna (Aug 9, 2010)

Once again Toph hardens all of Gaara's sand and crushes him to death with it. She even hardened sand while she was holding up that giant library with her Earthbending. 
How fast can Gaara fly with his sand is the only question people should be asking now.


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## Vanthebaron (Aug 9, 2010)

Terra get stomped easy. Toph has a good chance of popping gaara with a rock if she waits. And she's really at that.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 9, 2010)

Comic Terra roflstomps



> Terra's powers are currently limitless: while she limits herself to harmless  feats as growing large formations of rock with the slowness needed to avoid a geological hazard and using floating rocks as projectiles and to levitate around,[16] Gerard Shugel, the Ultra-Humanite, while residing in her body was able to *shift nearby tectonic plates  with ease or cause volcanoes to erupt at his will*: he surmises that Terra has always had this amazing amount of power, but willingly chose to limit herself in fear of the damage she could deal.[19]


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## cnorwood (Aug 9, 2010)

garra just flies on his sand toph wont be able to "see" him, she gets a sand coffin, and then the fight turns into gaara vs terra. harra is still flying so an earthquake wont work, terra tries to fly but gets a face full of sand shiruken, game


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## Banhammer (Aug 9, 2010)

and so the thread keeps growing


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## Extasee (Aug 9, 2010)

Toph can't see the sand coming if it's flying around her.


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## Banhammer (Aug 9, 2010)

mIrAcLeS hOw Do ThEy WoRk?


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## Extasee (Aug 9, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> mIrAcLeS hOw Do ThEy WoRk?



Well when a mommy and daddy love each other very much they hug super tightly and a baby appears in the mommy's tummy.

That is what you meant by miracles right?


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## Extasee (Aug 9, 2010)

So you understand.


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## Banhammer (Aug 9, 2010)

MoThErFuCkInG rAiNbOwS, tHeY aRe EvErYwHeRe


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## Endless Mike (Aug 9, 2010)

So we're all agreed comic Terra wins easily?


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## Banhammer (Aug 9, 2010)

Yes, of course, don't be silly.


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 9, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> So we're all agreed comic Terra wins easily?



Well clearly.


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## hammer (Aug 9, 2010)

wait isntthis tvshowterra I just kind of thought she was a non factor


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## Endless Mike (Aug 9, 2010)

The OP never specified so I'm using the comic version


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## hammer (Aug 9, 2010)

oh then rape is rape


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## Banhammer (Aug 9, 2010)

Well yes. I assumed it was more on level Tv Show Terra, but ignored it as well


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## MisterShin (Aug 9, 2010)

Link removed

click to see winner or click spoiler 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Toph wins


----------



## Shock Therapy (Aug 9, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> MoThErFuCkInG rAiNbOwS, tHeY aRe EvErYwHeRe



magic everywhere in this bitch


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## Narcissus (Aug 10, 2010)

I am not reading through this.

Gaara's manipulation of sand outweighs both Toph's earthbending and Terra's earth manipulation. Terra is the weakest character here and would lose to either one of the other two. Gaara would bury Toph and crush here.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2010)

He must have edited it since I read it


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## Herekic (Aug 10, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> He must have edited it since I read it




Whatever makes you feel better bro


Anyways, gaara stomps. his power totally outclasses either of these two, and on top of that he has superhuman durability and stamina(so toph like hitting him with a rock isn't going to take him out)

seriously, they'd need to REALLY lay it on gaara to hurt him. he can sand armor at will, and in a state much weaker then he is now, he was tanking lee kicking him dead in his face full force(lee's legs could casually carry a few tons, and then add in the massive acceleration to that)



on top of THAT, gaara also has basic ninja powers like the body switch.


Remember how he was able to replace his body with a sand clone in the split second lee closed his eyes?


Gaara stomps so hard it's not funny.


----------



## Power That Preserves (Aug 10, 2010)

Cartoon Terra isn't as weak as people are making her out to be.  During "Titan Rising" together with Raven she was able to lift a giant pillar of stone that went hundreds of meters deep and had Titans Tower sitting on top of it.  That's more raw power than anything Gaara or Toph have shown.  She's also got precise enough control later on to turn a glob of mud into a replica of Raven's face.


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## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

So by investing half of the effort she has more raw power than people who have higher feats?


----------



## Power That Preserves (Aug 10, 2010)

Lifting Titans Tower alone, even ignoring the hundreds of meters of rock beneath it, equals or exceeds any display of power Gaara or Toph have shown.


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## Herekic (Aug 10, 2010)

except that since raven helped, we have no way of knowing how much was her.


Also, she has never shown anywhere even approaching that kind of power in an actual fight.


being able to stand still and marshall all your power is one thing, but it's not like she can do that in the middle of a fight.


Garra can control enough sand to bury his entire village with a simple gesture quickly, and has no problem manipulatng that entire mass in combat.


Also, question: by speed equal, does OP merely mean movement and reaction speed?


because of so, that would still mean gaara's attacks are at the speed that can pin down guys like kimmimaro


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## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

hardly
And if kimimaro is anything, is proof that toph can crush his head like a grape with the sand already available in his face.


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## Herekic (Aug 10, 2010)

> hardly
> And if kimimaro is anything, is proof that toph can crush his head like a grape with the sand already available in his face.
> __________________



kimmimaro was faster then weightless lee, and still got pinned by the sand.


and toph would need better control over the sand then gaara has, which she lacks.

gaara has way more raw power, as well as much finer control(in terms of sand).


the idea of toph using gaara's sand against him is laughable.


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## SasuOna (Aug 10, 2010)

Its nice to see so much wank going on for Gaara
He still loses
Toph wins she has a lot more control over earth states of matter than Gaara who can only use "his" sand and is not as good as controlling natural sand. Toph doesn't have this problem so she wins.


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## Herekic (Aug 10, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> Its nice to see so much wank going on for Gaara
> He still loses
> Toph wins she has a lot more control over earth states of matter than Gaara who can only use "his" sand and is not as good as controlling natural sand. Toph doesn't have this problem so she wins.





What?


Did you somehow miss the deidara V.S gaara fight, where he controlled enough sand from the desert to cover his entire village?

on top of this totally destroying your argument about gaara using normal sand,  show me toph doing anything on that level.


Also on top of his superior power, he also has theb asic ninja tricks like body repalcement(as I said before)


Years ago, when he was alot weaker then he is in ths fight, he was able to clone himself and switch out with the clone to escape an incoming attack, in the split second lee closed his eyes(he just winced)


it would be even quicker now.



on top of THAT, what is toph's counter for when gaara starts flying?

she has pretty shit sight on sand to begin with, but she has shown that she REALLY has trouble with flying opponents.


during her outing in the desert, she needed katara to spot for her to fight some flying bugs.


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## hammer (Aug 10, 2010)

sand wave   .


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## Herekic (Aug 10, 2010)

Also, to add a little more to my "wank":


gaara got kicked by full power, gated lee, in the face, gut, and basically all over, several times


He was fine afterwards. I don't really think toph is quite as durable.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

Herekic said:


> kimmimaro was faster then weightless lee, and still got pinned by the sand.


And weightless lee was faster than the sand. See your paradox here?


> and toph would need better control over the sand then gaara has, which she lacks.


huh, huh, nice ramble


> gaara has way more raw power, as well as much finer control(in terms of sand).


hahaha





> the idea of toph using gaara's sand against him is laughable.


Not as laughable as the first sentence
I'm gonna pretend for a second that you didn't just ignore the whole thread 
While Toph is able to recreat bah sing se brick by brick, person by peron in a model scale out of sand, all gaara has is blobs, but you just said "better fine control"
And while in kimimaro's fight, he can't use his sand's full force to break through reinforced bone, which pretty much just as hard as a few rocks out there, "steel hardness" is kinda bullshit by manipulating calcium (in fact the denser calcium gets, the weaker it turns, but let's forget that for a second) while using microscopic trace earth toph can bend reinforced steel like wet paper.

And in the end, nothing, not a thing, can stop toph from hurling meteor shurkien at his face.

I've said this enough times to make repeating it a sick joke.


----------



## Herekic (Aug 10, 2010)

> And weightless lee was faster than the sand. See your paradox here?



Really? REALLY?


jesus. pay attention to the series,

1: lee outsped gaara's SHIELD. t was gaara hmself who could not keep up with lee's movements with his eyes, thus could not aim his sand attacks. though, it doesn't even matter, because see point number 2

2: it was stated flat out by lee that gaara that fought kimmi was Much stronger then he was when he fought lee. you're talking as if it's the same version of gaara both times.

even if lee's speed was too fast for gaara's sand before, that had clearly changed by next time we saw gaara. and, again, gaara in this fight's attacks are even faster then that.







> huh, huh, nice ramble




Toph can make a mini city out of sand, but can she control possibly thousands of tons of sand, all at once, CONSTANTLY, with hardly any effort?

garra didin't just use that mass sand wave against deidara as a single attack, it stayed airborn and he was manipulating the entire mass at once.



> hahaha




Again show me toph lifting anything even approaching what gaara did(and keep in mind he did it casually)

if she could bend on the scale of gaara, she could have destroyed the entire fire nation air fleet from the ground.





> And in the end, nothing, not a thing, can stop toph from hurling meteor shurkien at his face.




Sand bullet to toph's face.


her head explodes, she dies. he used that fun little trick against sasuke.


Superhuman attack speed, remember?


gaara in this fight is even stronger then the one who's attacks caught kimmi, and sand bulelt seems to be designed as an especially high speed attack.


Toph is dead.


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## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

It's quality over quantity..
Toph's more powerfull with the same amount of sand than gaara.



Herekic said:


> Also, to add a little more to my "wank":
> 
> 
> gaara got kicked by full power, gated lee, in the face, gut, and basically all over, several times
> ...



He had sand armor


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## hammer (Aug 10, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> He had sand armor



Yea the shuakku gave him auto armor with auto defense ifthey broke threw his wall they would have to break threw the sand on his body.


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## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

And what are pre-skip lee's destruction feats again?
I remember uprooting a tree, but kicking stab and needle vulnerable sasuke didn't even knock him out


I'm not saying he doesn't have any. I'm just saying I don't remember a whole bunch


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## hammer (Aug 10, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> And what are pre-skip lee's destruction feats again?
> I remember uprooting a tree, but kicking stab and needle vulnerable sasuke didn't even knock him out



ill go look now but I remember him carry a few tons whichin itself should suggest pretty decent


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## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

Yes, there's what's nowadays mostly looked at as a gag feat of dropping those weights on the floor.
Too bad when he kicks a kid hat should weigh half as much up, he hardly goes up those many feet.


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## Herekic (Aug 10, 2010)

> And what are pre-skip lee's destruction feats again?
> I remember uprooting a tree, but kicking stab and needle vulnerable sasuke didn't even knock him out




enough physical strength to carry what had to be at least a ton of weight on each leg without any problem, and was accelerating faster then the eye can see when he kicked him.


even a normal human kick at those speeds would be devastating
And gaara's sand armor is something he uses all the time, it factors into his durability.


even lee blitzing gaara wasn't able to attack before it came on, so it's safe to say it will generally always be there when he gets hit generally.

Also, to point out one more thing:


toph's reactio to gaara in this fight are utterly fucked over.

1, she is on sand. while she can still see, it is far more limited then her normal.

2, gaara doesn't bend. normally toph can predict attacks by reading the stances etc of the person, how they move,


but gaara stands completely still while attacking, and his sand does not touch the ground.


So, it's going to be either totally undetectable to her, or at the very least very hard to get barings on

meanwhile terra, not so much. so who would she go for first, the guy who to her seems to be doing absolutely nothing, or the chick she can clearly see attacking? and while she and terra are fighting, gaara is going to blow them apart.


and of course the lack of movement and ground contact makes the concept of her dodging/blocking his attacks fairly unlikely.






> Yes, there's what's nowadays mostly looked at as a gag feat of dropping those weights on the floor.
> Too bad when he kicks a kid hat should weigh half as much up, he hardly goes up those many feet.




Fictional superhuman energy absorbtion trope BS.


In the same vein, pretty much everyone luffy or people his level hits, ever, should go FLYING off into the distance.

somehow people in fiction just absiorbs most of the force into their body, instead of it sending them sailing off like it should.


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## SasuOna (Aug 10, 2010)

Toph overcame her weakness to standing on sand in season 3 the fact that people keep hanging onto this just shows you how much they don't know about Avatar. As of the finale her only weaknesses are water,ice, and air based projectiles

The only way Toph won't be able to sense Gaara is if he makes no sound whatsoever which is not possible for him using sand while attacking. His is a state of matter and does make vibrations so unless you want to claim Gaara can maintain perfect stealth when Toph is capable of hearing someones heart beat this is silly.
Toph wins


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## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

> faster then the eye can see


This again...

It's an artistic regard. People get slapped before they can see it all the time.
It's simply a posted point, specially because of how hilariously misused it becomes later when it's ten times faster but this time everyone can see.
To re-use the same paradox.
Weightless Lee was faster than gaara could react to
But then kimi maro is faster than lee and gaara has no problems.

If anything by people just simply not paying atention. It's just a prety way to say "faster than that guy could realize"

The tons of weight is now looked back more as of a gag than anything else. He carries those weights arond, but then gets his legs crushed by a bit of sand that can't replicate half the force necessary to lift them.


And toph by season three has over come her handicap of sand, however, because of the nature of this fight, there's enough sand for her to simply clap and turn all into stone for her best advantage.

And moovement has never been necessary to enable earth shifts from Toph. It's the absolute oposite. Earth mooves and therefore Toph can trace it's source which is those mooving it. Him standing still simply makes him that much of an easier  target.


I am familiar with the energy absorption trope. But it cannot be indiscriminately used in such absurdity as in one page the feat of lifting upwards is amazing and in the next, something that involves nothing but, is disregarded.


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## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

Disregard above post. SasuOna as an ally degenerates all enjoyment


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## hammer (Aug 10, 2010)

bantobefair wouldntyou say gaarabecame stronger and faster in the SRA?


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## Herekic (Aug 10, 2010)

> Toph overcame her weakness to standing on sand in season 3 the fact that people keep hanging onto this just shows you how much they don't know about Avatar. As of the finale her only weaknesses are water,ice, and air based projectiles
> 
> The only way Toph won't be able to sense Gaara is if he makes no sound whatsoever which is not possible for him using sand while attacking. His is a state of matter and does make vibrations so unless you want to claim Gaara can maintain perfect stealth when Toph is capable of hearing someones heart beat this is silly.
> Toph wins
> __________________



I never said she could not sense gaara. did you read my post? I specifically said she could sense he was there.


What I said was she won't be able to properly sense his attacks.






> It's an artistic regard. People get slapped before they can see it all the time.
> It's simply a posted point, specially because of how hilariously misused it becomes later when it's ten times faster but this time everyone can see.
> To re-use the same paradox.
> Weightless Lee was faster than gaara could react to
> But then kimi maro is faster than lee and gaara has no problems.



What part of "gaara got stronger" do you keep missing?


This was NOT the same gaara that fought lee.

lee said flat out gaara had gotten way stronger, and that if they fought again at that point he wouldn't stand a chance against him.


Gaara himself stands totally still, and his attack are airborne. 

she could maybe hear them, but, again, his attacks are VERY fast by her standards.






> The tons of weight is now looked back more as of a gag than anything else. He carries those weights arond, but then gets his legs crushed by a bit of sand that can't replicate half the force necessary to lift them.



No. the heavy weight was part of the story itself.

at first nobody thought lee taking weights off could matter

The reason it was the opposite was because it was a LOT of weight, and thus was holding him back tremendously.


lee did not get a little faster after dropping his weight. he got MUCH faster. logically, this implies it was not a little weight, but ALOT of weight on his legs.

the fallign weights where not a gag, it was used to show the spectators how much lee was being held back.





> And moovement has never been necessary to enable earth shifts from Toph. It's the absolute oposite. Earth mooves and therefore Toph can trace it's source which is those mooving it. Him standing still simply makes him that much of an easier target.




except her sight is not connected to the air.


gaara's sand is going to come out of his gourd, then float in mid air. how exactly can she detect it?






> I am familiar with the energy absorption trope. But it cannot be indiscriminately used in such absurdity as in one page the feat of lifting upwards is amazing and in the next, something that involves nothing but, is disregarded.




Gaara was being weighed down by his sand armor+guard, and yhis armor was also likely absorbing alot of the impact(otherwise it would have been useless)

lee's single kick against sasuke(while weighted and thus alot slower) sent him shooting up to near the roof of the tall room they where in.

Also keep in mind it's not liek lee was trying to send them flying into the horizon


He wanted them just high enough to do what he needed to do. if he sent them flying through the roof and outside he couldn't finish his technique.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

Faster is irrelevant in this thread, but if you wee to ask me, honnestly, I would say not much.

Deidara is not faster than Appa and toph could run at around his speed. with earthending on (granted that is extreemly subjective) and his his increase in strength came soley for the amount of sand grains he could now control.
Toph can't control those many at a time, but those that she can, she can do at a much better strength than Gaara


Which now that he doesn't have the bijuu to rely on could be immensely less. It is not to me to proove that he can still do those.


Anyway, she shoots the shuriken he shoots a sand bullet. Toph flicks that one and a hundred more with a sway of hand. Gaara tries to block the shuriken which slices right through his first second third and whatnot shield and slices his face in half.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 10, 2010)

> Gaara was being weighed down by his sand armor+guard, and yhis armor was also likely absorbing alot of the impact(otherwise it would have been useless)
> 
> lee's single kick against sasuke(while weighted and thus alot slower) sent him shooting up to near the roof of the tall room they where in.



You might have a better point than I think here. I will need to look back and check on this later.



> except her sight is not connected to the air.
> 
> 
> gaara's sand is going to come out of his gourd, then float in mid air. how exactly can she detect it?



Toph can and has sensed airborne earth. From the first episode she was in where she controlls the dust long after it's been let airborne without her will, to the the hints with the dai lee flying gloves, to the airborne catapult projectiles she had no way to conect through the earth to feel.


----------



## SasuOna (Aug 10, 2010)

No you said this



Herekic said:


> what is toph's counter for when gaara starts flying?
> 
> she has pretty shit sight on sand to begin with, but she has shown that she REALLY has trouble with flying opponents.
> 
> ...




My argument is that Gaara is attacking with sand projectiles which Toph will be able to sense. She was able to break down Dai Li warriors stone projectiles before they even hit her. Unless you want to get into a how fast Gaara's sand is argument this might just be best to concede that she will be able to see him while hes flying on "sand"


----------



## Narcissus (Aug 11, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> hardly
> And if kimimaro is anything, is proof that toph can crush his head like a grape with the sand already available in his face.



This is not a good argument in favor of Toph, as Gaara can crush her even more easily.



SasuOna said:


> Its nice to see so much wank going on for Gaara
> He still loses
> Toph wins she has a lot more control over earth states of matter than *Gaara who can only use "his" sand and is not as good as controlling natural sand.* Toph doesn't have this problem so she wins.



To begin with, the bolded is a contradiction. Gaara can utilize any sand avaliable, though he has better control over the sand in his gourd.

You assertion that Toph has better control over earth than Gaara will require evidence, as he has controlled far larger amounts than she ever has. 



Banhammer said:


> It's quality over quantity..
> Toph's more powerfull with the same amount of sand than gaara.



In this case, Gaara's quanity is going to overwhelm Toph. She will not be capable of manipulating so much sand coming at her enough to avoid certain death.



SasuOna said:


> My argument is that Gaara is attacking with sand projectiles which Toph will be able to sense. She was able to break down Dai Li warriors stone projectiles before they even hit her. Unless you want to get into a how fast Gaara's sand is argument this might just be best to concede that she will be able to see him while hes flying on "sand"



And your argument is flawed. Gaara can create entire waves of sand to swallow and crush Toph. The amount he can use will be more than what she has ever shown to bend, meaning she can not stop it.


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## MrChubz (Aug 11, 2010)

Terra depending on which feats can be taken seriously. She's pretty much all over the spectrum. I mean in one episode she went from defeating bloodlusted Trigon-mode Raven (granted she had the location advantage, however it isn't too different from where she's fighting in this match) but later on in the same episode Robin matched her with kung-fu and a motorcycle.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 11, 2010)

Where is this "so much sand" coming from? There isn't that much sand available on the field...

And why would she need to bother with any sand from gaara at all? His sand is relatively far off while toph can use the one on his face.



> The amount he can use will be more than what she has ever shown to bend, meaning she can not stop it.



You can't drown a fish with an ocean.


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## RWB (Aug 11, 2010)

Cornelia disapproves of these weak, unrefined brutes.





But seriously, Gaara and Terra do have an advantage here. Terra and Gaara both have flight, which leves completely dependent on her hearing.

Terra I believe caused quakes unintentionally, though I do not really remember her feats.

Really, Between equal speed Toph and Gaara I say it comes down to one thing- does Gaara block or dodge the Meteor Armlet?

Considering how the spacesword cuts through several inches of steel like butter(though really, part of it must be considered Sokka's own, rather high physical strength)...

If he blocks and it goes through he's getting sliced open. If he dodges and keeps moving in the air, Toph has little chance of winning. 



Gaara has an advantage on the whole, but needs to watch out for the Meteor Armlet.


----------



## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 11, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> You can't drown a fish with an ocean.



Freshwater fish can live in a ocean?


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 11, 2010)

It can if it's a salmon


----------



## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 11, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> It can if it's a salmon



I set you up for Bull shark and *you say salmon?!*

You disappoint so hard Ban!


----------



## Power That Preserves (Aug 11, 2010)

MrChubz said:


> Terra depending on which feats can be taken seriously. She's pretty much all over the spectrum. I mean in one episode she went from defeating bloodlusted Trigon-mode Raven (granted she had the location advantage, however it isn't too different from where she's fighting in this match) but later on in the same episode Robin matched her with kung-fu and a motorcycle.



As soon as Terra actually started _using_ her powers while fighting Robin, she beat him quite handily.


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## Banhammer (Aug 11, 2010)

SunnyMoonstone said:


> I set you up for Bull shark and *you say salmon?!*
> 
> You disappoint so hard Ban!



Salmon Honda 


Never underestimate me GrassHopah :ho


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 11, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Salmon Honda
> 
> 
> Never underestimate me GrassHopah :ho



Have to do that, after all you are the person most of the OBD agreed was unfunny.


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## Lucifeller (Aug 12, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Cartoon version. *Current Gaara* and End of series Toph.



Haven't read the whole topic yet, but people arguing that Gaara wins should probably read the bolded part above and keep in mind he DOES NOT HAVE SHUKAKU'S BACKUP ANYMORE, which severely mutilates his offensive and defensive abilities.

Just saying...


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## MisterShin (Aug 12, 2010)

Gaara can no longer use vast volumes of sand, because he does not have tailed beast chakra anymore, Toph clearly triumphs over Gaara. 

Anyway I can not picture Toph being crushed by an Earth attack. Unless it is from someone who has vastly superior Earth Manipulation to her. Gaara is not that person, he can only use sand infused with his chakra. 

Toph metal bends by using the earth particles in metal, this in it's self shows Toph is superior to Gaara in Earth Manipulation.


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## Banhammer (Aug 12, 2010)

SunnyMoonstone said:


> Have to do that, after all you are the person most of the OBD agreed was unfunny.





Did you just throw a sorority girl insult to my face?


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 12, 2010)

Well it is interesting... One thing that stands out though... if Gaara is in his ultimate defense... can Toph just take the sand away... what's the power struggle work like I wonder. Either way I'm going to have to go with Gaara... He can fly and toph can't see well on sand... How can she see the sand coffin coming? Terra is just a mild distraction. Like another person mentioned, she was only a really big threat under Slades control...

I just can't see Toph beating Gaara while he is flying and Toph has no way of seeing him. He could literally be a mile above her and just drop a mountain of sand on her or just use sand coffin.


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## Lucifeller (Aug 12, 2010)

While Toph can't see, she CAN feel the Earth around her (it's how she orientates herself). She will feel any tampering on the earth around her (and the sand too since it's ultimately earth) immediately, which means Gaara more or less CANNOT DO ANYTHING without alerting Toph that he's manipulating the sand in the area.

The whole thing about element benders is that they are aware of the element they are controlling. That's... a pretty big advantage, since it means Gaara can't do anything threatening without Toph getting on his case instantly.

Also, I'm not sure he CAN still use the sand to float since losing Shukaku...


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## Herekic (Aug 12, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> While Toph can't see, she CAN feel the Earth around her (it's how she orientates herself). She will feel any tampering on the earth around her (and the sand too since it's ultimately earth) immediately, which means Gaara more or less CANNOT DO ANYTHING without alerting Toph that he's manipulating the sand in the area.
> 
> The whole thing about element benders is that they are aware of the element they are controlling. That's... a pretty big advantage, since it means Gaara can't do anything threatening without Toph getting on his case instantly.
> 
> Also, I'm not sure he CAN still use the sand to float since losing Shukaku...






Note that the sand is coming from gaara's gourd, not the ground. also, if he uses his sand bullet attack she'll likely be dead before she could do anything anyways.


Also, there is the kinda sad possibility that gaara could kill toph with his bare hands.


gaara doesn't move much in a fight because he has no need to, but if he wanted, there is nothing stopping him from shunshining over there and putting his fist through toph's head.


Keep in mind gaara as a 12 year old could lug around his giant sand filled gourd while jumping through trees at high speeds. superhuman strength+high speed movement tech that negates equal base speed=dead.


Though, again, I REALLY need to point out that OP did not equalize attack speed.

Thus gaara's sand is going to be moving at speeds fast enough to catch highly mobile people who can move faster then the eye can perceive. toph is niehter anywhere near as mobile or anywhere near as fast.



I honestly see no reason he could not blow her head off with sand bullets before she could react.


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## Plague (Aug 12, 2010)

I'm gonna go with gaara. Toph can't control or see in sand. Terra gets raped due to easy to avoid attacks. 

SAND COFFIN ftw!!!!!


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 12, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Did you just throw a sorority girl insult to my face?



No, I only stated a true fact of history.


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## Narcissus (Aug 12, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Where is this "so much sand" coming from? There isn't that much sand available on the field...
> 
> And why would she need to bother with any sand from gaara at all? His sand is relatively far off while toph can use the one on his face.



The OP set a location with plenty of rocks and sand. Gaara can also convert earth to sand. So he has a large amount to work with.

And he has a wide reach with his sand, so yes,  she will have to worry about it.



> You can't drown a fish with an ocean.



This doesn't work because:

Katara can drown and Zuko can be burned
Gaara can simply crush Toph


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## Banhammer (Aug 12, 2010)

SunnyMoonstone said:


> No, I only stated a true fact of history.



Let's seem, if I owed you shit I could say well


> Was voted runner-up for the funniest member of the OBD together with Zetta and Zaru.




But instead I can say this 

Link removed


Ordinary.


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## Banhammer (Aug 12, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> This doesn't work because:


It's a metaphor?


> Katara can drown and Zuko can be burned
> Gaara can simply crush Toph




But if you make Zuko walk through a hundred flame throwers he can bend through them and if you drop katara in the ocean she can do the submarine bending, without none of them actually having to bend the whole thing.
Gaara is essentially dropping alot of sand on someone that can toss all the relevant amount (you can't use an ocean of sand on a five foot target. At some point size is meaningless) aside.

Although in order for him to make all this sand he has to give Toph even more time for her to explode his brain with the sand that is already on his face.


My turn
Why are we assuming amaaazing feats for current Gaara? No shukaku


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 12, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Let's seem, if I owed you shit I could say well




Congratulation on that ban. 

You come a long way from that one thread.


> But instead I can say this instead
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



I like being ordinary, it mean I don't have problems.


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## Lucifeller (Aug 12, 2010)

> gaara doesn't move much in a fight because he has no need to, but if he wanted, there is nothing stopping him from shunshining over there and putting his fist through toph's head.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind gaara as a 12 year old could lug around his giant sand filled gourd while jumping through trees at high speeds. superhuman strength+high speed movement tech that negates equal base speed=dead.



Does Gaara even HAVE hand to hand feats? If he doesn't, you're arguing that just because he's quick on his feet he should win, and there's all sorts of WRONG with that reasoning, especially when Gaara's preferred way of attacking has always been range.

Moreover, going by the LOL SAND COFFIN logic, nothing prevents Toph from going all out right off the bat and simply crushing him like a bug, so using that logic makes the whole thing a coin toss. This isn't a matter of who moves faster, but who thinks faster, because either side can use their attacks with their mind, and can and WILL kill the other guy dead with the first move they get off if they are actually murderous about it.


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## Herekic (Aug 12, 2010)

> Does Gaara even HAVE hand to hand feats? If he doesn't, you're arguing that just because he's quick on his feet he should win, and there's all sorts of WRONG with that reasoning, especially when Gaara's preferred way of attacking has always been range.




He has both strength and speed feats


Unless you're implying gaara can't figure out how to throw a punch, what's the problem?

he's not "quick", he's hella fast.

He went from mid air to hidden under the ground, replacing himself with a clone in-between, in the time lee winced. how is toph supposed to deal with him doing that to pop up right next to her?

He's also used sand shunshin etc several times(dissapears and reappears somewhere else with no visible movement)






> Moreover, going by the LOL SAND COFFIN logic, nothing prevents Toph from going all out right off the bat and simply crushing him like a bug, so using that logic makes the whole thing a coin toss. This isn't a matter of who moves faster, but who thinks faster, because either side can use their attacks with their mind, and can and WILL kill the other guy dead with the first move they get off if they are actually murderous about it.



gaara has to raise some sand and shoot tiny bullets.

his sand moves fast enough to keep pace with people who can move faster then the eye can see(this was 2 years ago)

who do you think will attack first?


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## MisterShin (Aug 12, 2010)

Toph is easily going to hear the sand shifting in Gaara Gourd and when the sand is moving through the air.

Toph can skate on the Earth at high speeds. 
Toph can erect pillars of earth to catch opponents in the skies. 
Toph can bend sand.
Toph can bury several feet underground. 
Toph can create Armor of Earth/metal around her.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 12, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> Toph is easily going to hear the sand shifting in Gaara Gourd and when the sand is moving through the air.
> 
> Toph can skate on the Earth at high speeds.
> Toph can erect pillars of earth to catch opponents in the skies.
> ...



No to the extent Gaara can.

If Toph goes underground, she is digging her own grave and just helping Gaara set up Imperial Sand Burial.

No metal here. They're in a rocky/sandy area.


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## hammer (Aug 12, 2010)

why wouldanyone WANT togo udnerground in sand fighting gaara


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## Weltall8000 (Aug 12, 2010)

> No to the extent Gaara can.



Only as a matter of scale ie quantity. I have to agree with Ban's argument that it would appear to be he has a large range of control, but relatively less focused power at any given point of control, seeing as he's not manipulating full sized boulders like Toph can. Unless of course you can provide instances of him doing so.



> If Toph goes underground, she is digging her own grave and just helping Gaara set up Imperial Sand Burial.



Why? She's demonstrated the ability to tunnel through Earth and make shields and armor of rock. From the thread so far, it seems like it is fairly well established that she is more powerful in terms of raw strength of her Earth bending than Gaara's sand manipulation, simply with less of a shown simultaneous control range (read, she can't bend as much at once).

So, she potentially makes a barrier of some form and turtles, or just wades through his onslaught of sand attacks. If not ripping the control of the sand around his person and turning it on him.


And why does this have to be all about fighting with sand? She could just as easily use the solid stone, which Gaara doesn't have the ability to manipulate.

And of course, as already covered, he's dead when the space bracelet/shuriken bisects his brain.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 12, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> *Toph is easily going to hear the sand shifting in Gaara Gourd and when the sand is moving through the air.*





There is absolutely no evidence Toph can just hear Gaara's sand in his Gourd, and that she can hear him flying... that's just a terrible assumption. How can she hear something that is a mile above her when taking into consideration the sound of wind, and the things going on on the ground... 

Nothing she has ever shown indicates this could happen.

Gaara+flight+faster sand+stronger+more evil  +FLIGHT=Win.

Again, he can fly a mile above a city... she can't do anything to him. She hasn't shown any attack that can make that distance before he just moves out of the way. Gaara could do virtually anything to her from up there while she can do virtually nothing to him.


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## Narcissus (Aug 12, 2010)

When I get to a proper computer I will resume my specific debate. However, it is up to those claiming Gaara cannot use as much sand any more. You'll have to back up the claim with evidence.


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## Weltall8000 (Aug 13, 2010)

> There is absolutely no evidence Toph can just hear Gaara's sand in his Gourd, and that she can hear him flying... that's just a terrible assumption. How can she hear something that is a mile above her when taking into consideration the sound of wind, and the things going on on the ground...



Toph has feats of sensing and handling airborne Earth with precision, e.g.; boulders being flung at her party. If it is Earth, she can sense it. Rocks and sand = Earth, for the purposes of Earth bending. Hence, Gaara's sand can be detected by her, even if it is airborne. Unless there is something establishing that it is not "Earth"...even more so than a meteorite not from her planet. 

"How can she hear something that is a mile above her when taking into consideration the sound of wind, and the things going on on the ground..."

She uses a combination of hearing, feeling, and some sort of sense she derives from her Earth bending. She explains that she learned it from the blind badgermoles who were the original Earth benders. So Earth bending, takes a particularly special meaning to her, more so than most other benders, as it enables her to perceive the world around her.

I'm not necessarily saying she'll sense it in his gourd from over a mile away, but if it's anywhere near her, she has demonstrated the ability to reasonably sense it.



> Gaara+flight+faster sand+stronger+more evil  +FLIGHT=Win.



As it stands, it looks like the faster sand, hasn't been proven. The stronger, being in the sense that he can control more sand at a given time that Toph can, but Toph has more power within that smaller range. And as far as more evil...you obviously missed the episode in which she was scamming everyone and became a wanted criminal! 



> Again, he can fly a mile above a city... she can't do anything to him. She hasn't shown any attack that can make that distance before he just moves out of the way. Gaara could do virtually anything to her from up there while she can do virtually nothing to him.



Nothing's really been shown to actually penetrate her defenses yet either.

But, when he flies a mile into the sky, she just snipes him with the space bracelet/shuriken and bisects his brain.


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## Herekic (Aug 13, 2010)

> As it stands, it looks like the faster sand, hasn't been proven. The stronger, being in the sense that he can control more sand at a given time that Toph can, but Toph has more power within that smaller range. And as far as more evil...you obviously missed the episode in which she was scamming everyone and became a wanted criminal!




..what?

pre-skip gaara's sand caught a guy who was at least as fast as unweighted lee.


the gaara in this fight is kazekage gaara.


You honestly think his sand isn't faster then avatar's on average peak human speed?


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## Weltall8000 (Aug 13, 2010)

> You honestly think his sand isn't faster then avatar's on average peak human speed?



Who says the Earth bending projectiles are only peak human speed? Even with Toph running on waves of Earth, she was moving at a speed comparable to Appa in flight. The projectiles of Earth, people may dodge, but they aren't shown to be outrunning them.

Besides, speed was stated to be equalized.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 13, 2010)

Weltall8000 said:


> Who says the Earth bending projectiles are only peak human speed? Even with Toph running on waves of Earth, she was moving at a speed comparable to Appa in flight. The projectiles of Earth, people may dodge, but they aren't shown to be outrunning them.
> 
> Besides, speed was stated to be equalized.



Speed =/= speed of sand... unless it does in which case this is a pointless fight because they are basically not even themselves.

Toph has never shown any attack with the speed at which Gaara's sand blocked Lee's attacks. Plus, as you mentioned, she can detect earth yes.. but not from a mile in the air, only what is coming toward her or near her... Gaara would be perfectly safe as long as he kept quiet and sat up in the air... and he is almost always quiet sooo... Long distance sand coffin, sand bullet, sand whatever... she may be able to hold his attacks off for a while... but unless Appa joins the fight, she can't do anything to Gaara, and he will eventually get her.


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## Weltall8000 (Aug 13, 2010)

> Speed =/= speed of sand... unless it does





OP said "Speed: Equal" I take that to mean, they are relatively proportionate to each other. Encompassing movement, attack, and reaction speeds.



> in which case this is a pointless fight because they are basically not even themselves.



I do think that there is a point in speed equalization, in making there actually be a fight. Simply because Naruto verse's speeds are so much faster than any 'verse with reasonably normal humanly possible speeds, that they could just speed blitz opponents from 'verses like Avatar's. Speed aside, characters from Avatar 'verse are otherwise in a fairly good position to fight denizens of Naruto 'verse in terms of power and special abilities.

Speed being equalized, it is a decent fight. Speed not equalized, chances are we just have the insanely fast Naruto characters performing even more insanely fast special moves that kill their opponents before they even hear the starting gun.



> Toph has never shown any attack with the speed at which Gaara's sand blocked Lee's attacks. Plus, as you mentioned, she can detect earth yes.. but not from a mile in the air, only what is coming toward her or near her... Gaara would be perfectly safe as long as he kept quiet and sat up in the air... and he is almost always quiet sooo... Long distance sand coffin, sand bullet, sand whatever... she may be able to hold his attacks off for a while... but unless Appa joins the fight, she can't do anything to Gaara, and he will eventually get her.



As for her detecting Gaara a mile in the air, feel free to read what I said on that in my previous post. To summarize, if he's up there I'm not saying she definitely is aware of him at that distance. Only that she would certainly be aware of incoming Earth attacks as they came closer to her, though, she does apparently have a pretty respectable range of detection, which unfortunately, I can't quantify just how far it is.

But as far as his flying up in the air goes, she could reasonably detect as he lifts off and begins his ascent. She potentially could raise a pillar(s) of Earth to follow. She could launch projectiles after him while taking off, ascending, assuming she can't hit him at his peak altitude. Or she could simply turtle up and wait it out as long as he wants to hang out in the air.


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## SunnyMoonstone (Aug 13, 2010)

Weltall8000 said:


> OP said "Speed: Equal" I take that to mean, they are relatively proportionate to each other. Encompassing movement, attack, and reaction speeds.



No only movement(combat and travel) speed is counted when Speed equalization is used unless said otherwise.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 13, 2010)

SunnyMoonstone said:


> No only movement(combat and travel) speed is counted when Speed equalization is used unless said otherwise.



That's what I figured... Attacks should be kept how they are because those are the characters feats to base the battle on... Slowing Gaara's sand is like saying Goku can use kamehameha, but he has to say it really slow...


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## Weltall8000 (Aug 13, 2010)

> No only movement(combat and travel) speed is counted when Speed equalization is used unless said otherwise.



Makes no sense that it would. But if that is the case, Toph would be fast enough to dodge it anyways. As now she's moving as quickly as Naruto characters. So, regardless, it is effectively no different from a defensive standpoint, the only spot where it is is on her offensive attacks being significantly slower.



> Slowing Gaara's sand is like saying Goku can use kamehameha, but he has to say it really slow...



I didn't necessarily say slowing the sand down. I said speed was equalized to where they are relatively proportional to each other.

Goku already does say it fairly slow most of the time. But at any rate, if battle speed were equalized Goku would be able to charge it up as fast as he would against an opponent in DBZ. Say hypothetically the average DBZ character could take 15 steps while he charges it up, taking 5 seconds. If speed is equalized, with a faster 'verse than DBZ's, Goku would charge it up in the amount of time it takes his opponent to take 15 steps, but since they're twice as fast as DBZ 'verse's Goku, it is now 2.5 seconds. Which would be less time than in the DBZ universe, but relative to his opponent, it would effectively be the same as if he were using it on an opponent in his home DBZ universe...even though it is objectively faster, but leaving it with the same effectiveness and setup.

It keeps the technique usable rather than making it even less effective by instead leaving it at 5 seconds in which case the non DBZ 'verse opponent could take 30 steps, which for purposes of the fight, makes the Kamehameha take twice as long to perform.

Gaara's sand could stay the same speed and Toph is sped up. Or Gaara's sand is slowed down and Toph stays the same. Or some middle ground, regardless, they are put on a level playing field in terms of speed. But if these alterations aren't made, speed isn't really equalized.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 13, 2010)

Weltall8000 said:


> Makes no sense that it would. But if that is the case, Toph would be fast enough to dodge it anyways. As now she's moving as quickly as Naruto characters. So, regardless, it is effectively no different from a defensive standpoint, the only spot where it is is on her offensive attacks being significantly slower.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you _want_ it to be this way really badly so that Toph has a chance 

Speed being equalized usually just means movement speed. The person, not the attacks. Just so insanely fast characters like Minato can't just immediately slit the opponents throat. It has nothing to do with the attacks... Unless attacks are specifically nerfed.


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## Lucifeller (Aug 13, 2010)

Sigh.

I'll repeat: this is CURRENT Gaara, ie without Shukaku. Unless I missed something recent, he CAN'T simply fly high up with his sand anymore, because that was a feat he pulled WHEN HE STILL HAD SHUKAKU.

You all might as well stop using that one, because Gaara lost a CHUNK of power along with the sand badger, and unless he's shown a feat after his depowering, you are better off assuming he can't do it anymore, because losing a Bijuu when it's your entire fighting style's basis IS going to put a severe damper on your abilities.

Also:



> Unless you're implying gaara can't figure out how to throw a punch, what's the problem?



See, the problem is that Gaara was trained entirely to rely on sand as his offense AND defense. It may well be that he DOESN'T KNOW how to properly throw a punch - he was more or less at a loss when he realized Lee could punch through his sand defense, and stood there looking like a complete moron most of the time even before Lee decided to use the Gates. And even when he put Lee out of commission, he relied on the sand to use it.

Same with Kimimaro, he was just less stationary about it - he fights the whole thing with his sand and nothing else.

Gaara quite literally has no hand to hand feats, only feats using his sand. His entire hand to hand experience more or less consists of people closing in and beating the shit out of him because he's just terrible up close. And Kimimaro DIDN'T have the speed advantage, he just had enough power to plow through his sand and close in... which nearly got Gaara killed several times even when he DID have Shukaku. Now that he's lost it, well...


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 13, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> Sigh.
> 
> I'll repeat: this is CURRENT Gaara, ie without Shukaku. Unless I missed something recent, he CAN'T simply fly high up with his sand anymore, because that was a feat he pulled WHEN HE STILL HAD SHUKAKU.
> 
> You all might as well stop using that one, because Gaara lost a CHUNK of power along with the sand badger, and unless he's shown a feat after his depowering, you are better off assuming he can't do it anymore, because losing a Bijuu when it's your entire fighting style's basis IS going to put a severe damper on your abilities.



While I agree he probably lost a chunk of his power (such as he ability to create a city sized wall of sand) there is no indication that he can't fly anymore... it doesn't use that much sand, and while your post seems clever, it works both ways...

Yes, we should assume he lost some power... No you cannot state what specific powers he lost. We haven't seen him fight again, and we cannot assume what he can or cannot do anymore. 

Perhaps we should not use "current" Gaara in fights until he has actually had one himself...


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## Weltall8000 (Aug 13, 2010)

> I think you want it to be this way really badly so that Toph has a chance
> 
> Speed being equalized usually just means movement speed. The person, not the attacks. Just so insanely fast characters like Minato can't just immediately slit the opponents throat. It has nothing to do with the attacks... Unless attacks are specifically nerfed.



Then give me a reasonable argument against actually equalizing speed when one of the conditions is equalized speed.

Which makes absolutely no sense as now the attacks are completely out of whack with the character's bodies' speeds. In your version of speed being equalized Goku is using the Kamehameha at the same speed, even if he's facing someone 10 times faster than him. Goku's body is able to move comparably to them, but you are saying the Kamehameha will still take the normal amount of time, however the move is even more pointless for Goku to use as it has lost potency in terms of its effectiveness because it is sooooo slow relative to his own physical attacks now in this equalized fight. It makes zero sense that his Kamehameha would not also gain the same proportional increase in speed, in terms of casting it and its actual movement speed of the attack itself. Reason being to maintain it's same level of effectiveness for the purpose of the fight. Which is the entire point in equalizing such things as; speed, power, etc. (in this case, only speed was specified)

I'm not saying slow his sand down to a snail's pace to edge out some kind of advantage. But I am saying keep it relative to what kind of speed it has compared to people in his own 'verse. If it moves (just some number out of thin air) 10 times as fast as his running speed, keep it at that proportion of 10:1 to his, Toph, and Terra's equalized run speeds. If Toph's Earth projectiles are 5 times her run speed, keep it 5x all of their adjusted run speeds. If Gaara's is indeed proportionally faster in Naruto than Toph's in Avatar, by all means, keep that speed advantage, but relative so that it reflects how it would fair if they were all in the same 'verse with the kinds of speeds that are common for it.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 13, 2010)

Weltall8000 said:


> Then give me a reasonable argument against actually equalizing speed when one of the conditions is equalized speed.
> 
> Which makes absolutely no sense as now the attacks are completely out of whack with the character's bodies' speeds. In your version of speed being equalized Goku is using the Kamehameha at the same speed, even if he's facing someone 10 times faster than him. Goku's body is able to move comparably to them, but you are saying the Kamehameha will still take the normal amount of time, however the move is even more pointless for Goku to use as it has lost potency in terms of its effectiveness because it is sooooo slow relative to his own physical attacks now in this equalized fight. It makes zero sense that his Kamehameha would not also gain the same proportional increase in speed, in terms of casting it and its actual movement speed of the attack itself. Reason being to maintain it's same level of effectiveness for the purpose of the fight. Which is the entire point in equalizing such things as; speed, power, etc. (in this case, only speed was specified)
> 
> I'm not saying slow his sand down to a snail's pace to edge out some kind of advantage. But I am saying keep it relative to what kind of speed it has compared to people in his own 'verse. If it moves (just some number out of thin air) 10 times as fast as his running speed, keep it at that proportion of 10:1 to his, Toph, and Terra's equalized run speeds. If Toph's Earth projectiles are 5 times her run speed, keep it 5x all of their adjusted run speeds. If Gaara's is indeed proportionally faster in Naruto than Toph's in Avatar, by all means, keep that speed advantage, but relative so that it reflects how it would fair if they were all in the same 'verse with the kinds of speeds that are common for it.



Haha you're getting way too far into this... I'm not saying any of that... you are. Equalizing speed means they are not faster than one another in terms of physical speed. What does Gaara's speed have to do with the speed of his sand? It's not part of his body... He doesn't even move his own body to move the sand. 

Either way, even if Gaara's sand is somehow unable to move faster than Toph's rocks, sand, whatever... It won't make a difference. My argument for Gaara winning didn't have much to do with speed anyways... If Gaara is flying, Toph can't see him, nor attack him... simple as that. Gaara's sand can move at the same speed as Toph's... it still has a chance to hit her whereas she has no chance to hit him.

Like I said though... if people are going to use the excuse that Gaara no longer has a his Tailed beast so he must absolutely suck now, then this whole battle is completely pointless. We haven't seen a new battle since he lost it so technically there is no basis for Gaara's abilities.


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## Herekic (Aug 13, 2010)

> I'll repeat: this is CURRENT Gaara, ie without Shukaku. Unless I missed something recent, he CAN'T simply fly high up with his sand anymore, because that was a feat he pulled WHEN HE STILL HAD SHUKAKU.



He can't stand on top of his sand and move it around anymore?


because thats all his flying was.


Your logic makes no sense. why would he need shukaku to use such a simple trick?

gaara can still use his sand no problem, thus can still fly.






> You all might as well stop using that one, because Gaara lost a CHUNK of power along with the sand badger, and unless he's shown a feat after his depowering, you are better off assuming he can't do it anymore, because losing a Bijuu when it's your entire fighting style's basis IS going to put a severe damper on your abilities.




post-shukaku gaara's sand was fast enough to get in-between raikage and sasuke while rai was attacking, strong enough to block raikage's leg drop, as well as stop the falling cieling from crushing everyone.


He has more then enough power left to do what he needs here.


Also, I should point out that it was stated GAARA STOPPED USING SHUKAKU.


kankuro said this post-skip, and even pre-skip, gaara RAN OUT OF CHAKRA.


Do you think somebody powered by a bijuu would just run out of chakra?


most of gaara's big feats come from his own power.







> See, the problem is that Gaara was trained entirely to rely on sand as his offense AND defense. It may well be that he DOESN'T KNOW how to properly throw a punch - he was more or less at a loss when he realized Lee could punch through his sand defense, and stood there looking like a complete moron most of the time even before Lee decided to use the Gates. And even when he put Lee out of commission, he relied on the sand to use it.




..maybe because trying to physically attack a TAIJUTSU SPECIALIST that far exceeds you in physical stats would be idiotic?


toph is not faster then gaara, she is definitely nowhere near as strong as him, and she has nowhere near his durability.

Give one good reason why he can't just slap her unconscious.

and we saw gaara throw a punch, btw. he was going to trade blows with naruto in mid-air, remember?


He also took naruto skull bashing him in the head from a high distance and was ok. 





> Gaara quite literally has no hand to hand feats, only feats using his sand. His entire hand to hand experience more or less consists of people closing in and beating the shit out of him because he's just terrible up close. And Kimimaro DIDN'T have the speed advantage, he just had enough power to plow through his sand and close in... which nearly got Gaara killed several times even when he DID have Shukaku. Now that he's lost it, well...




he has shown he can throw a punch, and has shown that his physical stats>toph's. what else do you claim he needs?


And correct. kimmi didin't have a speed advantage. know why? because gaara's sand is really fast.

Kimmi has reaction and movement feats that put him easily on the same level as unweighted lee, yet gaara's sand caught him no problem.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 13, 2010)

Oh my, wall walls of text


----------



## Herekic (Aug 13, 2010)

> Oh my, wall walls of text




To be fair, I double space for each sentence.


----------



## MisterShin (Aug 13, 2010)

Strength:
Toph > Gaara
Toph lifts/throws building sized chuncks of earth and crunches metal like paper.
Rocks are also dense/strong enough to dent and piece metal.

Speed:
Toph > Gaara
Toph can surf on the earth at high speeds, there is a vid on youtube where she makes earth look like water underneath her. I dont remember Gaara traveling very fast.
She has also shown agility, jumping and dodging blows.

Durability:
Toph > Gaara
Toph can summon armor of earth and metal, both of which are denser than sand.
Deidara earth manipulation (Exploding Clay) passed Gaara defences

Range:
Toph > Gaara
Toph range is easily several hundred meters, Gaara range without tailed beast is unknown so i place it as several tenths of meters.

Special:
Toph can easily kill Gaara using her Braclet which can cut through steel.

Toph can summon a dust cloud to blind Gaara from target.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5mHlAd-3CQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## Bender (Aug 13, 2010)

This is KH Birth by sleep Terra right?


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## Herekic (Aug 13, 2010)

> Strength:
> Toph > Gaara
> Toph lifts/throws building sized chuncks of earth and crunches metal like paper.
> Rocks are also dense/strong enough to dent and piece metal.




...do you even know what earth bending is?





> Speed:
> Toph > Gaara
> Toph can surf on the earth at high speeds, there is a vid on youtube where she makes earth look like water underneath her. I dont remember Gaara traveling very fast.
> She has also shown agility, jumping and dodging blows.




Gaara's sand can outpace people who move faster then the human eye can even perceive. 




> Durability:
> Toph > Gaara
> Toph can summon armor of earth and metal, both of which are denser than sand.
> Deidara earth manipulation (Exploding Clay) passed Gaara defences




gaara is a chakra enhanced, older male.

he has tanked superhumans beating the crap out of him, falling from 100+ feet up and hitting the ground(and was fine), and an explosion contained within a structure with him.





> Special:
> Toph can easily kill Gaara using her Braclet which can cut through steel.
> 
> Toph can summon a dust cloud to blind Gaara from target.




He will have blown her apart with sand bullets before she can do either.


Clearly you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about, and fully deserve that rep bar of yours.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 13, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> Strength:
> Toph > Gaara
> Toph lifts/throws building sized chuncks of earth and crunches metal like paper.
> Rocks are also dense/strong enough to dent and piece metal.
> ...



Wrong. 



Herekic said:


> ...do you even know what earth bending is?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Right.


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> It's a metaphor?



Yes, but not one that helps Toph out here.



> But if you make Zuko walk through a hundred flame throwers he can bend through them and if you drop katara in the ocean she can do the submarine bending, without none of them actually having to bend the whole thing.
> Gaara is essentially dropping alot of sand on someone that can toss all the relevant amount (you can't use an ocean of sand on a five foot target. At some point size is meaningless) aside.



Let's make a hypothetical scenario:

*Ozai has the power for Sozin's comet, but Zuko doesn't.
Ozai launches his sea of fire at Zuko.
Zuko attempts to bend it and save himself.*​
The result of the above situation will be Zuko getting burned alive. Without the power of the comet, there is no way he can bend enough fire that Ozai is throwing at him in order to save himself.

The same is true for Katara. If a tsunami is coming straight at her, she is not going to be bending enough water to stop herself from being washed away and drowned.

This also extends to Toph. If an overwhelming amount of earth is thrown at her, she is not going to be able to bend enough of it away from her. Both she and Terra would be buried and crushed.



> Although in order for him to make all this sand he has to give Toph even more time for her to explode his brain with the sand that is already on his face.



It does not take Gaara long to make his sand, and there is another opponent here (Terra). There is also the fact that the area already has a good supply of sand to begin with.



> My turn
> Why are we assuming amaaazing feats for current Gaara? No shukaku



I answered this earlier, but I'll reiterate:

If you claim Gaara can no longer replicate his previous feats, you will need o provide evidence, as this is a mere assertion on your part. It was believed that Gaara would no longer be capable of using his sand at all once he lost Shukakku, until he proved those claims wrong.

There is no basis to dismiss his previous  feats (except transforming into the Shukakku) until he shows that he can no longer perform them any more.


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## Lucifeller (Aug 15, 2010)

I'd like to point out that after Gaara lost Shukaku, he WAS able to still control sand... but only barely enough to help himself lift his hand very slowly. That's it. He was struggling even to do that.

To his credit, he had just gotten better from having Shukaku extracted, but the fact he was struggling even to do that minimal an action, when back in the Chunin Exams he could still muster up enough energy to crush Lee's arm and leg into paste after having been pounded into a frigging crater and being barely conscious doesn't make his chances look good. Assuming that he can do crap on the same magnitude as before when he LOST HIS INTERNAL BATTERY is stupid, because a Jinchuuriki can't really AVOID using his/her Bijuu's chakra. Just having it there means their chakra reserves are mixed with the user's.

Naruto is a special case in that the seal holding Kyuubi also regulates how much chakra he gets, preventing it from simply mixing in like every other Jinchuuriki's does, but when Orochimaru messed with the seal, his chakra control was shot to Hell and back, as Jiraiya blatantly stated, and he also got tired faster, though it's a relative term when someone's got Naruto's stamina.


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

Lucifeller said:


> I'd like to point out that after Gaara lost Shukaku, he WAS able to still control sand... but only barely enough to help himself lift his hand very slowly. That's it. He was struggling even to do that.



First of all, your information is incorrect. Gaara did not lift his own hand with his sand, he lifted Naruto's. In addition, he did not struggle to do that.



He lifted it slowly to help Naruto shake his own hand. 



> To his credit, he had just gotten better from having Shukaku extracted, but the fact he was struggling even to do that minimal an action, when back in the Chunin Exams he could still muster up enough energy to crush Lee's arm and leg into paste after having been pounded into a frigging crater and being barely conscious doesn't make his chances look good. Assuming that he can do crap on the same magnitude as before when he LOST HIS INTERNAL BATTERY is stupid, because a Jinchuuriki can't really AVOID using his/her Bijuu's chakra. Just having it there means their chakra reserves are mixed with the user's.



Gaara has demonstrated enough control over his sand that he is still the Kazekage, and he was able to fight against Sasuke.


*Spoiler*: _Naruto ch. 464 pg. 3-4_ 








He even retained his automatic sand shield, shown when he blocked Amaterasu.



Saying a claim is "stupid" does not make it so. Not having any support or evidence for a claim does. Ironically, your presupposition fits the latter of these cases. You have no argument.



> Naruto is a special case in that the seal holding Kyuubi also regulates how much chakra he gets, preventing it from simply mixing in like every other Jinchuuriki's does, but when Orochimaru messed with the seal, his chakra control was shot to Hell and back, as Jiraiya blatantly stated, and he also got tired faster, though it's a relative term when someone's got Naruto's stamina.



This information is irrelevant to the match. As things stand, it is known that Gaara still has great control over sand. If losing the Shukakku diminished that control, then we currently do not know. Until it can be proven that he did, however, it remains an unsupported claim and his previous feats (excluding transforming into the Shukakku) stand.


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## Herekic (Aug 15, 2010)

> I'd like to point out that after Gaara lost Shukaku, he WAS able to still control sand... but only barely enough to help himself lift his hand very slowly. That's it. He was struggling even to do that.





Did you somehow miss gaara fighting at the kage summit?

This wasn't even all that long later, and gaara was using his sand to block raikage's leg drop and sasuke's ameratsu, as well as stop the cieling from crushing everyone.


We even saw an entirely new jutsu from him(the sand bullets).

Also, in what way was he "struggling" before?






> To his credit, he had just gotten better from having Shukaku extracted, but the fact he was struggling even to do that minimal an action, when back in the Chunin Exams he could still muster up enough energy to crush Lee's arm and leg into paste after having been pounded into a frigging crater and being barely conscious doesn't make his chances look good. Assuming that he can do crap on the same magnitude as before when he LOST HIS INTERNAL BATTERY is stupid, because a Jinchuuriki can't really AVOID using his/her Bijuu's chakra. Just having it there means their chakra reserves are mixed with the user's.





So, you are saying that during the kimmi fight, he burned through shukaku's entire chakra supply?


Because he said flat out he ran out of chakra.


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## SasuOna (Aug 15, 2010)

I wonder how long it will take Gaara to *overwhelm her with sand*? There has to be a very large amount even more sand then hes used to protect his village. Going by where the battlefield is and how much sand is present hes not accomplishing this feat again.

Which is stupid in any case as Toph could just do the same thing with Earth and trap him underground with even more pressure. That won't even be needed though since hes going to have a meteorite in his head.


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## hammer (Aug 15, 2010)

how about he lifts the sand under her  and crushes her before she thinks


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> I wonder how long it will take Gaara to *overwhelm her with sand*? There has to be a very large amount even more sand then hes used to protect his village. Going by where the battlefield is and how much sand is present hes not accomplishing this feat again.



It's not going to take him long at all as the amount of sand he can control is significantly greater than the earth Toph can bend. Refer to the scenario I made for Banhammer. She simply does not have the feats to show that she manipulate that much sand to save herself, especially when her sandbending is inferior to her bending of normal earth.

He can also convert earth into sand with a clap.


*Spoiler*: _Naruto ch. 215 pg. 18-20_ 









This is before part II of the manga, where Gaara casually controls even more sand than this (which is already enough to overwhelm Toph). The fact that this area already has a good supply of sand to begin with also does not help Toph's case.



> Which is stupid in any case as Toph could just do the same thing with Earth and trap him underground with even more pressure. That won't even be needed though since hes going to have a meteorite in his head.



As I just finished telling Lucifeller, saying something is "stupid" does not make it stupid. Making an unsupported claim is. In your case, the meteorite fits into this category. If you're going to claim this method for Toph, you will have to prove that:

she uses it as a normal means of offense
she can use it before Gaara engulfs her with sand
and that it would even get past his defense

Otherwise, it is a poor assertion on your part that is without evidence. You are also assuming she would directly attempt to use it on Gaara rather than Terra, who is also present.


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## hammer (Aug 15, 2010)

seriusly he throws the entire amount he used to fight dedira at once,


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## SasuOna (Aug 15, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> It's not going to take him long at all as the *amount of sand he can control is significantly greater than the earth Toph can bend.* Refer to the scenario I made for Banhammer. She simply does not have the feats to show that she manipulate that much sand to save herself, especially when her sandbending is inferior to her bending of normal earth.
> 
> *He can also convert earth into sand with a clap*.
> 
> ...



All those claims are just based on opinion, its a fact that Toph has greater range and control of earth than Gaara does with sand. Making that much sand with a clap is not enough to beat Toph who can go underground casually.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_Ko7VusR04[/YOUTUBE]


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> All those claims are just based on opinion



What you have just done here is accuse me of arguing based on my opinion, which ignores the fact that I have posted evidence to corroborate my claims. It's a weak argument.  



> its a fact that Toph has greater range and control of earth than Gaara does with sand. Making that much sand with a clap is not enough to beat Toph who can go underground casually.
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_Ko7VusR04[/YOUTUBE]



Now that you have changed your entire argument, I will accept your concession to the former and address what you have presented here.

Your claim is that Toph has greater range and control than Gaara. This is false, and nothing in this video provided sufficient evidence for your case either. The scan I posted showed Gaara's sand swallowing a large section of a forest. Toph has done nothing anywhere near that, and Gaara has better feats still.



Also, were Toph to go underground, Gaara would simply employ Desert Requiem, killing her instantly.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 15, 2010)

I think Narcissus has proven effectively hat Gaara wins.


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## hammer (Aug 15, 2010)

BUT TOPH CAN SEEZ IN DEH AIRZ!


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## SasuOna (Aug 15, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> What you have just done here is accuse me of arguing based on my opinion, which ignores the fact that I have posted evidence to corroborate my claims. It's a weak argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm hardly ignoring the fact that you have been posting feats from Gaara with which we have no idea of the scale(large section of forest or Covering Kazegakure while Shakaku was still inside him) and still doesn't give us a clear picture of his range other than him making lots of sand that pales to the city she made from sand in the beach episode. The fact is Gaara without Shukaku is less powerful than that so your claims that he can do that casually are all based on your "opinion".

Toph has feats which we can actually claim are all her without the presence of something amping powers. 
Post Shukaku Gaara has shown nothing like those feats so stop trying to pass them off as viable options in this fight. 



Narcissus said:


> Also, were Toph to go underground, Gaara would simply employ Desert Requiem, killing her instantly.


Which would do nothing to her anyway since shes actively moving underground and earthbending.


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## hammer (Aug 15, 2010)

there iasno proof shukaku didthat for himat all if your only proof hehad shukakkuis the reason he did that its silly


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> I'm hardly ignoring the fact that you have been posting feats from Gaara with which we have no idea of the scale(large section of forest or Covering Kazegakure while Shakaku was still inside him) and still doesn't give us a clear picture of his range other than him making lots of sand that pales to the city she made from sand in the beach episode. The fact is Gaara without Shukaku is less powerful than that so your claims that he can do that casually are all based on your "opinion".



Yes, you are.

No, we do not know the exact scale for the amount of sand Gaara is using. But what we do know is that it is more than anything Toph has ever done. By ignoring the evidence I've posted and saying we don't know the scale, you are guilty of a:

*Moving the goalposts fallacy* → _an informal logically fallacious argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded._

Rather than writing my arguments off as "my opinions" try to provide logical refutations. You have done nothing to prove Toph has superior range and power in earth manipulation to Gaara. You have no real argument. Please learn how to debate.

You are also repeating the Shukakku argument ad nauseum (another logical fallacy) after it has been debunked.



> Toph has feats which we can actually claim are all her without the presence of something amping powers.



This is irrelevant as there are many beings in fiction who receive their powers through other sources in lieu of having them naturally, and Gaara has demonstrated that he can use sand without the bijuu.



> Post Shukaku Gaara has shown nothing like those feats so stop trying to pass them off as viable options in this fight.



As I said, I have dealt with this already.

1. Many assumed Gaara would completely lose his power over sand with the loss of Shukkaku. He proved that wrong.

2. Until he shows that he really did lose his abilities, you cannot claim that he did, as it is an unsupported assertion on your part because it has no evidence to back it up.



> Which would do nothing to her anyway since shes actively moving underground and earthbending.





Toph does not have the durability to survive so much sand crushing down on top of her. She would be killed.

If you plan to return, please bring actual arguments with good logic, or let someone else take over the debate.


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## SasuOna (Aug 15, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Yes, you are.
> 
> No, we do not know the exact scale for the amount of sand Gaara is using. But what we do know is that it is more than anything Toph has ever done. By ignoring the evidence I've posted and saying we don't know the scale
> You are also repeating the Shukakku argument ad nauseum (another logical fallacy) after it has been debunked.



Is it logical to say that Gaara can still use his full Shukaku powers which involved the manipulation of sand on that scale when it was stated during the Deidara fight?
Shuma-Gorath
Shuma-Gorath
Shuma-Gorath
Somehow in your mind you thinking that this equates to proof that Gaara still has all those powers makes no logical sense and proves you yourself are guilty of a fallacy ie 
*Argument from belief*
This is when someone states that they personally believe something to be true, without providing any actual evidence. 
For example you stating that since we don't know if Gaara can still do all of that it has to be assumed that he can despite you having no proof whatsoever for that claim.





Narcissus said:


> This is irrelevant as there are many beings in fiction who receive their powers through other sources in lieu of having them naturally, and Gaara has demonstrated *that he can use sand without the bijuu.*


Not what anyone has been saying on this thread you are simply trying to play up your argument with things that don't matter like the fact that he can still manipulate sand without shukaku suddenly means he does everything he did before when he was amping his powers without any type of proof.



Narcissus said:


> As I said, I have dealt with this already.
> 
> 1. Many assumed Gaara would completely lose his power over sand with the loss of Shukkaku. He proved that wrong.
> 
> 2. Until he shows that he really did lose his abilities, you cannot claim that he did, as it is an unsupported assertion on your part because it has no evidence to back it up.


You proved nothing and a simply using the notion that he can still manipulate sand as proof that he still has the ability to do that despite him showcasing none of those high end feats again. Show me some proof that he can Casually make sand cover an entire forest without shukaku. I'm pretty sure the OP stated he was without it for a reason.



Narcissus said:


> Toph does not have the durability to survive *so much sand crushing down on top of her.* She would be killed.
> 
> If you plan to return, please bring actual arguments with good logic, or let someone else take over the debate.


Because she wasn't supporting the weight of an entire library that weighed more than any amount of sand Gaara could bend at his high end. Most of you seem to be desperate to get into an argument over how fast his sand is yet don't want to provide proof that he can do any of the things you are claiming which are high end feats casually without Shukaku.


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> Is it logical to say that Gaara can still use his full Shukaku powers which involved the manipulation of sand on that scale when it was stated during the Deidara fight?
> Shuma-Gorath
> Shuma-Gorath
> Shuma-Gorath
> ...



Improper use of the fallacy. You are the one claiming that Gaara has lost his abilities, therefore the burden of proof falls on you to provide evidence of your claim. The is evidence in favor of my argument, you have simply ignored it. Gaara is still able to use sand without the Shukakku, even his sand shield. Everything speaks against you. You cannot shift the burden of proof onto me. 

Until he shows that he has actually lost his abilities, you have nothing to back your argument up with. This means you have no argument at all.




> Not what anyone has been saying on this thread you are simply trying to play up your argument with things that don't matter like the fact that he can still manipulate sand without shukaku suddenly means he does everything he did before when he was amping his powers without any type of proof.



First you have to prove he was amping his powers, in which case, you cannot. Gaara stopped using the Shukakku after his battle with Naruto. The fact that he has not been shown to lose any of his powers is why my argument is supported, while your's is not. You don't get to sit there and make up something that has never been shown or stated in the manga.



> You proved nothing and a simply using the notion that he can still manipulate sand as proof that he still has the ability to do that despite him showcasing none of those high end feats again. Show me some proof that he can Casually make sand cover an entire forest without shukaku. I'm pretty sure the OP stated he was without it for a reason.



The notion that he can still use his sand and that he has not been shown or stated to have lost any of his powers. As I said, the burden of proof falls on you to prove he lost his powers. I'm not going to do your work for you. Learn how to debate.



> Because she wasn't supporting the weight of an entire library that weighed more than any amount of sand Gaara could bend at his high end. Most of you seem to be desperate to get into an argument over how fast his sand is yet don't want to provide proof that he can do any of the things you are claiming which are high end feats casually without Shukaku.



The weight of the library was not crashing down on top of her all at once, as Gaara's sand will be.

Now, provide the evidence of your claim that Gaara has lost his powers or I will accept your concesion. As it stands, you are using this as a poor excuse to dismiss Gaara's feats without a basis to do so.


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## goten365 (Aug 15, 2010)

hammer said:


> how about he lifts the sand under her  and crushes her before she thinks



I dont know how fast gaara is but toph can sense movements at SS speed.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 15, 2010)

^ Where in the world did you get that? Since when is anyone in the Avatarverse supersonic?


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## Saturday (Aug 15, 2010)

goten365 said:


> I dont know how fast gaara is but toph can sense movements at SS speed.



She has never done anything to prove this.


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## goten365 (Aug 15, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> ^ Where in the world did you get that? Since when is anyone in the Avatarverse supersonic?



She cant move at SS but if I remember correctly vibrations move at SS speed and toph can sense vibrations and attack faster than they can react.


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## Saturday (Aug 15, 2010)

What is Toph going to do against a levitating Gaara? Someone please answer that question.


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## goten365 (Aug 15, 2010)

greenbeast44 said:


> What is Toph going to do against a levitating Gaara? Someone please answer that question.



Nothing,Toph would get raped but if he was on the ground he wouldnt hit her.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 15, 2010)

goten365 said:


> She cant move at SS but if I remember correctly vibrations move at SS speed and toph can sense vibrations and attack faster than they can react.



That doesn't make much of a difference.

Even if she could sense it at sound speed, Toph can't move at sound speed herself, which means she will be getting caught. Gaara's sand is omnidirectional, and she's going t be crushed.


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## goten365 (Aug 15, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> That doesn't make much of a difference.
> 
> Even if she could sense it at sound speed, Toph can't move at sound speed herself, which means she will be getting caught. Gaara's sand is omnidirectional, and she's going t be crushed.



Toph can travel underground,and idk how fast she is but when she senses movements she moves near that speed so...


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## SasuOna (Aug 15, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Improper use of the fallacy. You are the one claiming that Gaara has lost his abilities, therefore the burden of proof falls on you to provide evidence of your claim. The is evidence in favor of my argument, you have simply ignored it. Gaara is still able to use sand without the Shukakku, even his sand shield. Everything speaks against you. You cannot shift the burden of proof onto me.
> 
> Until he shows that he has actually lost his abilities, you have nothing to back your argument up with. This means you have no argument at all.
> 
> ...



Needless post basically you want to deflect all arguments against you by saying that someone has to prove something when you haven't proved anything to begin with. No one is making you do any work since you didn't do anything to begin with but make baseless claims with no proof.

Gaara still having his sand manipulation powers does not mean he has them at the levels when Shukaku was inside him. You cannot just dance around this issue and make assumptions without any proof. 
I even posted what Deidara said in his fight with Gaara basically proving it was the power of Shukaku or his status of a Jinchuuriki amping his powers. The fact that he hasn't done anything like this post Shukaku basically ruins your whole argument of baseless assumptions.


greenbeast44 said:


> What is Toph going to do against a levitating Gaara? Someone please answer that question.



Toph has Seismic sense she can feel earth vibrations in the air and on the ground. If you even payed any attention in season 2 or 3 you would know that shes reacted to attacks coming from the air by reading someone's moves from the earth. Gaara's sand being in the air will just be another way for her to feel all of his movements.


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> Needless post basically you want to deflect all arguments against you by saying that someone has to prove something when you haven't proved anything to begin with. No one is making you do any work since you didn't do anything to begin with but make baseless claims with no proof.



Logical responses would actually help you to form an argument. As of now, not only have you failed to provide an actual argument, but you have failed to understand how debate works. 

When you make a claim, you have to prove it. You made the claim that Gaara's powers are weaker, meaning it is your responsibility to provide evidence of that claim.



> Gaara still having his sand manipulation powers does not mean he has them at the levels when Shukaku was inside him. You cannot just dance around this issue and make assumptions without any proof.
> I even posted what Deidara said in his fight with Gaara basically proving it was the power of Shukaku or his status of a Jinchuuriki amping his powers. The fact that he hasn't done anything like this post Shukaku basically ruins your whole argument of baseless assumptions.



You'll nedd to provide an example of Gaara's power levels decreasing. At this point, that has not happened, meaning you have no evidence. You're the only one "dancing" right now.

So until you have actual evidence to support your claim, I accept your concession.

Gaara would kill both Toph and Terra in this fight.


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## C. Hook (Aug 15, 2010)

How the hell is this thread still going?



goten365 said:


> She cant move at SS but if I remember correctly vibrations move at SS speed and toph *can sense vibrations* and attack faster than they can react.



The vibrations reach Toph's feet naturally; vibrations don't just go in one direction, you know?



			
				SasuOna said:
			
		

> Toph has Seismic sense she can feel earth vibrations in the air and on the ground. If you even payed any attention in season 2 or 3 you would know that shes reacted to attacks coming from the air by reading someone's moves from the earth.* Gaara's sand being in the air will just be another way for her to feel all of his movements.*



She'd have to be TOUCHING the sand with her feet to feel his movements.

Toph reacts to people jumping at her because they have to tense against the ground first. 

When faced with actual levitation or flight, she fails horribly. Her fight with Aang, anyone?


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## Thor (Aug 15, 2010)

Gaara wins.


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## MisterShin (Aug 15, 2010)

greenbeast44 said:


> What is Toph going to do against a levitating Gaara? Someone please answer that question.



hit him with a rock or slice his head off with meteorite.

vid shows her hitting and shielding aerial attacks.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_Ko7VusR04&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

gaara *cannot use large volumes *of sand anymore. he *lacks tailed beast* which gives him *large reserves of chakra*.
gaara *only has good control* with sand from his gourd.

sand which is not a part of his gourd will be manipulated by toph

toph has reacted to explosions and the like which give her supersonic reactions


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## SasuOna (Aug 15, 2010)

C. Hook said:


> How the hell is this thread still going?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good job not following season 2 or 3 shes reacted to the flying bees among other airborne attacks in both seasons.


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## MisterShin (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> Good job not following season 2 or 3 shes reacted to the flying bees among other airborne attacks in both seasons.
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_Ko7VusR04&playnext=1&videos=S7OAw7rC3rE[/YOUTUBE]



1min 37secs in vid she block a fireball shot from another boat, that is both extreme skill and accuracy for a blind person.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> hit him with a rock or slice his head off with meteorite.
> 
> vid shows her hitting and shielding aerial attacks.
> 
> ...



Because Gaara's totally gonna stand there and get hit, amirite?


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## C. Hook (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> vid shows her hitting and shielding aerial attacks.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_Ko7VusR04&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]



All of the aerial attacks involved earthbending (And hence were avoided by simple prediction skills) or was the hornetvulture, which made such a noise that it's hard NOT to be able to hit it even without vibrations.


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> *Because she wasn't supporting the weight of an entire library that weighed more than any amount of sand Gaara could bend at his high end*. Most of you seem to be desperate to get into an argument over how fast his sand is yet don't want to provide proof that he can do any of the things you are claiming which are high end feats casually without Shukaku.



The Library of Wan Shi Tong wasn't directly on top of her, and she was barely able to hold it up. Her keeping the library from sinking into the sand is not the same thing as Gaara performing a Desert Funeral on her...she is not going to able to resist the weight of that muc sand.


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## C. Hook (Aug 15, 2010)

The fireball was aimed at a specific angle. Notice that they knew what the angle was before hand, setting up the rock in front of her for the shot.



SasuOna said:


> Good job not following season 2 or 3 shes reacted to the flying bees among other airborne attacks in both seasons.



Answered this already; just read my post on the video.


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## MisterShin (Aug 15, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> The Library of Wan Shi Tong wasn't directly on top of her, and she was barely able to hold it up. Her keeping the library from sinking into the sand is not the same thing as Gaara performing a Desert Funeral on her...she is not going to able to resist the weight of that muc sand.



toph can skate on earth


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> hit him with a rock or slice his head off with meteorite.



I've already addressed this on the previous page.



> gaara *cannot use large volumes *of sand anymore. he *lacks tailed beast* which gives him *large reserves of chakra*.
> gaara *only has good control* with sand from his gourd.



The first two sentences has no evidence in favor of it, meaning it is a baseless claim on your part. The last sentence is false. Gaara has good control of sand in general, he just has even better control over the sand in his gourd.




> sand which is not a part of his gourd will be manipulated by toph



No it won't. Sandbending is Toph's weakest area. Gaara would overpower her, especially considering the sheer amounts of sand he can control.



> toph has reacted to explosions and the like which give her supersonic reactions



By this logic, so has Gaara's sand.


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> toph can skate on earth



That's not what I was arguing, he's arguin that Toph can hold up Gaara's sand while underground because she held up the Library of Wan Shi Tong aboveground. Despite the fact that the Library was not directly on top of her like Gaara's sand will be...and the fact that was barely able to hold up the Library as is.

Your post has nothing to do with what I said.


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## MisterShin (Aug 15, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> The first two sentences has no evidence in favor of it, meaning it is a baseless claim on your part.
> 
> No it won't. Sandbending is Toph's weakest area. Gaara would overpower her, especially considering the sheer amounts of sand he can control.


nope they are not baseless they're *firmly supported by the manga*.
gaara *cannot* control large amounts of sand anymore, *he got depowered*.


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> nope they are not baseless they're *firmly supported by the manga*.
> gaara *cannot* control large amounts of sand anymore, *he got depowered*.



Then show the evidence.


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> nope they are not baseless they're *firmly supported by the manga*.
> gaara *cannot* control large amounts of sand anymore, *he got depowered*.



He lost Shukaku but as of yet it has not been shown if he got depowered he still can control his sand as shown when he fought Sasuke at the Kage summit. there is no actual proof that he's been depowered.


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## SasuOna (Aug 15, 2010)

If people watched the 1st episode of sozin's comet you know the one where Toph is walking on sand like its nothing and makes an intricate sculpture out of sand(All in the video I posted) yet claim that this is her biggest weakness based on a weakness from a previous season that she gets over completely in the following season............ makes me think you don't know what your talking about at all.

Its sad that this fight is in a canyon and none of Gaara's abilities stop her from just closing the gap on him killing him instantly whine she can literally make a space in the earth.

Also for Gaara to be invisible to Toph in the air he would have to make zero sound like I pointed out before. Kishi has shown on manga panels that Gaara's sand does in fact make noise with his SFX notes. So yes shes going to be able to sense him


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## hammer (Aug 15, 2010)

where did it say inthe manga he cant control sand well anymore?

also the manga saysalot of things which is contradicted


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## Level7N00b (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> nope they are not baseless they're *firmly supported by the manga*.
> gaara *cannot* control large amounts of sand anymore, *he got depowered*.


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> If people watched the 1st episode of sozin's comet you know the one where Toph is walking on sand like its nothing and makes an intricate sculpture out of sand(All in the video I posted) yet claim that this is her biggest weakness based on a weakness from a previous season that she gets over completely in the proceeding season.........



Toph: "I've been working on my sandbending."

Working on. In no way does this mean she became as proficient in bending sand as she is in bending other forms of earth. It only means she improved on it.



> Its sad that this fight is in a canyon and none of Gaara's abilities stop her from just closing the gap on him killing him instantly whine she can literally make a space in the earth.



Not before Gaara converts the earth around him into sand and kills Toph with it. Really, he could just use the sand around him.



> Also for Gaara to be invisible to Toph in the air he would have to make zero sound like I pointed out before. Kishi has shown on manga panels that Gaara's sand does in fact make noise with his SFX notes.



As high as Gaara can fly in the air, he would be out of Toph's earthbending reach. She can not bend that far away from her. And, as I've said before, there is also Terra for Toph to focus on, while Gaara could kill them both at once.


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## SasuOna (Aug 15, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Toph: "I've been working on my sandbending."
> 
> Working on. In no way does this mean she became as proficient in bending sand as she is in bending other forms of earth. It only means she improved on it.


Thats nice I never claimed she was a sandbending master anyway like your implying. 
When she was useless on it she was already hardening it to earth so when shes proficient with it all of Gaara's attacks get broken down like the Dai Li stone gloves.



Narcissus said:


> Not before Gaara converts the earth around him into sand and kills Toph with it. Really, he could just use the sand around him.


*sigh*
Can you tell me how fast his sand? Otherwise this is just another baseless claim of yours.



Narcissus said:


> *As high as Gaara can fly in the air, he would be out of Toph's earthbending reach.* She can not bend that far away from her. And, as I've said before, there is also Terra for Toph to focus on, while Gaara could kill them both at once.



Good job hell be disqualified for leaving the battlefield 
Toph vs Terra now


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> Thats nice I never claimed she was a sandbending master anyway like your implying.
> When she was useless on it she was already hardening it to earth so when shes proficient with it all of Gaara's attacks get broken down like the Dai Li stone gloves.
> 
> 
> ...



You only lose by Ringout if you leave the immediate area, flying high into the air is not leaving the ring.


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## MisterShin (Aug 15, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Then show the evidence.



Link removed

naruto using his own chakra can only summon tadpole
9-tails chakra allows him to summon gamabunta

solid proof that large chakra is required for large scale attacks, until gaara shows he can use large scale attacks without tailed beast, then large scale attacks are out of the question for current gaara.

gaara got *depowered* he has *significantly less chakra*


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> Link removed
> 
> naruto using his own chakra can only summon tadpole
> 9-tails chakra allows him to summon gamabunta
> ...



Accosiation Fallacy...


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## SasuOna (Aug 15, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> You only lose by Ringout *if you leave the immediate area, flying high into the air is not leaving the ring.*



Did you check the OP, they are fighting in a canyon him leaving the canyon is essentially him leaving the ring.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 15, 2010)

@MisterShin: Naruto has shitty chakra control and it's a well known fact. Don't try to lump his clumsiness on Gaara. You have still not proven your claim that Gaara was using Shukaku's power and not his own.



SasuOna said:


> Did you check the OP, they are fighting in a canyon him leaving the canyon is essentially him leaving the ring.



He's only leaving the ring if he exits the canyon, flying above the canyon is not the same as leaving it.


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> Thats nice I never claimed she was a sandbending master anyway like your implying.
> When she was useless on it she was already hardening it to earth so when shes proficient with it all of Gaara's attacks get broken down like the Dai Li stone gloves.



And I thank you for admitting that her manipulation of sand is inferior to Gaara's. So no, she will not be breaking his attacks down.




> *sigh*
> Can you tell me how fast his sand? Otherwise this is just another baseless claim of yours.





First of all, I have not made one baseless claim in this thread. I have provided scans and proof of my claims. Really, all you are doing is echoing what I said to you, as you have made unsupported claim after unsupported claim. Try some common sense.

Now, refer to the scan I posted where Gaara converts the earth into sand with a clap.



> Good job hell be disqualified for leaving the battlefield
> Toph vs Terra now





This level of stupidity... wow

Fly is not a BFR. Learn what the terms mean before trying to use them and failing. A lot of characters fly during battle. Gaara can fly out of Toph's reach and attack her from above.


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 15, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> Did you check the OP, they are fighting in a canyon him leaving the canyon is essentially him leaving the ring.



It doesn't matter if it's a canyon, flying into the air is not a ringout.


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## The777Man (Aug 15, 2010)

TV Terra can't win this. It comes down to Gaara and Toph, and Gaara easily wins. He can control a lot more sand than Toph can control earth, so Toph will get overwhelmed by sheer volume. Also, Gaara's sand is far more durable than her earth, as shown from the fact that it can withstand C3 from Deidara. Also, Gaara can fly. Toph can't do anything if he's in the air. It's ridiculous that Toph supporters keep ignoring this point.


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> Link removed
> 
> naruto using his own chakra can only summon tadpole
> 9-tails chakra allows him to summon gamabunta
> ...



This is not evidence that Gaara lost any of his power. Try again.


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## MisterShin (Aug 15, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> This is not evidence that Gaara lost any of his power. Try again.



i am saying that gaara has significantly less chakra.

or do u believe gaara has equal chakra to a tailed beast


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## Level7N00b (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> i am saying that gaara has significantly less chakra.
> 
> or do u believe gaara has equal chakra to a tailed beast



Irrelevant. That proves nothing at all.


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> i am saying that gaara has significantly less chakra.
> 
> or do u believe gaara has equal chakra to a tailed beast



...and the post still proves nothing at all.


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## MisterShin (Aug 15, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> This is not evidence that Gaara lost any of his power. Try again.



i am saying that gaara has significantly less chakra.

or do u believe gaara has equal chakra to a tailed beast


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## Level7N00b (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> i am saying that gaara has significantly less chakra.
> 
> or do u believe gaara has equal chakra to a tailed beast



Irrelevant. That proves nothing at all. 

Stop posting.


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> i am saying that gaara has significantly less chakra.
> 
> or do u believe gaara has equal chakra to a tailed beast



Not only had Gaara stopped using the Shukakku after his fight with Naruto, you still have failed to provide any real evidence in support of your claim. Until you do, you have nothing, meaning Gaara maintains his previous feats as of now.


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## MisterShin (Aug 15, 2010)

answer my question yes or no. is gaara chakra equal to a tailed beast


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## Level7N00b (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> answer my question yes or no. is gaara chakra equal to a tailed beast



Can't be accurately measure. Gaara's chakra hasn't been commented on enough to give a real answer.

And yet again, that has nothing to do with anything. Irrelevant.


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## Narcissus (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> answer my question yes or no. is gaara chakra equal to a tailed beast



Loaded question fallacy.


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 15, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> answer my question yes or no. is gaara chakra equal to a tailed beast



And again your using a Fallacy to support your argument on

Your going on an assumption that Gaara's chakra control is as shitty as Naruto's is...which it isn't. Gaara has no reason to rely on Shukaku as much as Naruto does on Kyuubi...your argument is flawed...post actual evidence yo your claim or get out.


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## hammer (Aug 15, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> It doesn't matter if it's a canyon, flying into the air is not a ringout.



im sure ifsomeone oput a dbz fightup he would say lul fly and ki spam

infact dont peopel say that with EVERYTHING


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 15, 2010)

This has gone on long enough. Locking this.


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