# Archer w/ Avalon VS Satsujinki



## JTExecutor (Nov 24, 2009)

The battle of H4X.

Turn Satsu's inevitable death by his own eyes off.


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## Xelloss (Nov 24, 2009)

This is not a battle of hax its a unholy rape, archer rapes Shiki to a new lvl.


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## JTExecutor (Nov 24, 2009)

Mystic Eyes not work on Avalon or something?  I could have sworn I remember reading that it would be the opposite result if Shiki were to fight Shiro, and thus, I upped them to their best forms.


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## Xelloss (Nov 24, 2009)

The best shiki vs the best shirou its a win for Shiki but he would die after all the stress.

Avalon its imposible to be traced due to mana needed for the tracing. Avalon its beyond the 5 magics, and the glasses which where reinforce by the 4 magic are imposible to be destroyed.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 24, 2009)

Shiki vs Shirou can only go three ways:

-Draw
-Shirou rapes with traced weapon
-Shiki kills him before he traces

Archer is a servant who killed Berserker 6 times and has UBW with mach 14 arrows. Still the universe implodes from their awesome. I'm a major fan of the Emiya characters and Shikis.



> Avalon its imposible to be traced due to mana needed for the tracing. Avalon its beyond the 5 magics, and the glasses which where reinforce by the 4 magic are imposible to be destroyed



If this is the Avalon still in his body then he only has to project it, activating it will cost him though. Still Shirou used it once albeit special conditions so who knows if Archer can or cannot use it.


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## JTExecutor (Nov 24, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



The best shiki vs the best shirou its a win for Shiki but he would die after all the stress.




...isn't this topic the best Shiki VS the best Shirou?  I don't you get any better than Archer w/ Avalon and Satsujinki unless there's something even better than those two.


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## Xelloss (Nov 24, 2009)

Acording to Nasu the best shirou (as a human) its unlimited blade works with archer arm shirou, and Shiki its Nanaya mode.


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## JTExecutor (Nov 24, 2009)

Sounds fishy.  Unreasonably fishy.  I would think that Satsujinki who makes quick work of DAAs should be Shiki at his strongest and that a full-blown adult Shiro with the best Noble Phantasm stuck inside his body should be the best.


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## Xelloss (Nov 24, 2009)

Consider theres no adult form Shirou that still hold Avalon, Avalon was lost no matter the ending after the holy war.

And Satsujinki could 1 shoot low tier, but he alread its beyond his limits and in a self destruct mode, to the point even his glasses can´t hold MEODP (so he would end pretty soon death).


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## JTExecutor (Nov 24, 2009)

Alright.  I changed the rules so that Satsu cannot die by his own eyes.

Now who wins?


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 24, 2009)

Archer would beat the best Shiki because he's a servant. He borrowed some power from Araya and no Shiki has no counter for things like Gae Bolg, tracing servant stats, BPs and such. 

The best Shirou should be Archer as he's more experienced and has better stats. Now if Nasu meant that UBW Shirou with Archer's arm was the best due to some potential of having all those powers so early then it's possible for the best Shirou>Archer I guess but that is speculation.


It would be nice if in some future game Shirou and Shiki meet and fight enemies together.


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## BossKado (Jun 18, 2010)

human shirou with archers arm + avalon, could be easilly defeated by satsujinki, archer would be more harder. why? Shiki's Meodp can kill/destroy anything short of god.(thats a lot). the stress level on shiki varies on how alien to death the enemy is. with human shirou, sastujinki could remove the burial cloth on his eyes and go all out without getting stressed, and rape the hell out of shirou. and i think you guys are overestimating servants a lot, remeber shirou was able to match archers strengh and speed when they fought, and shirou is human with human speed. satsujinki who mobility is far far far far beyond that. and he could just slice and dice archer so that mana bomb wont activate. i think he could do that without removing the burial cloth, the way he did to those dead apostles.


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## Riverlia (Jun 18, 2010)

> And Satsujinki could 1 shoot low tier, but he alread its beyond his limits and in a self destruct mode, to the point even his glasses can´t hold MEODP (so he would end pretty soon death).


1.some one chosen to replaced Nero Chaos and a Majustsushi who can hold her ground against the like of Ciel are so not low tier
2.apparently his cloth is like Archer's coat, a Burial Cloth, but with different property, so no, he's not dieing any sooner than a glass wearing Shiki.



> Sounds fishy. Unreasonably fishy. I would think that Satsujinki who makes quick work of DAAs should be Shiki at his strongest and that a full-blown adult Shiro with the best Noble Phantasm stuck inside his body should be the best.


Because 
1.Shirou hasn't demonstrated the ability to use Avalon active effect without Saber
2. Fate Shirou is weaker than UBW Shirou or HF Shirou once Avalon deactivate and leaving him drained.
3. Archer and Shirou are considered 2 different entities by Nasu and most fans
4. Nasu is actually hesitating whether to make Satsujinki canon or not


> and i think you guys are overestimating servants a lot, remeber shirou was able to match archers strengh and speed when they fought, and shirou is human with human speed


That is Archer at 1/10 of his power, and he was winning until PIS and CIS kicked in
ppl overestimated Shirou when it come to Shirou vs Servant, while most of the time underestimated Servants.
Sometime they do overestimated Servants though.


> satsujinki who mobility is far far far far beyond that. and he could just slice and dice archer so that mana bomb wont activate


He's Ciel level or slightly above her in agility apparently, Ciel is around average Servant level agility.
Archer is below average in agility, but could hold his own against high tier Servants in speed like Lancer.
So nope, he's not that far beyond Archer, and wont be able to slice and dice his way through without MEODP




All that said, Satsujinki has too many unknown factors to make this a debatable topic. We only known the out line: Ciel-level martial art prowess or above, godly assassination ability, leveled up MEODP.


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## Crimson King (Jun 18, 2010)

Shiki will likely explode his brain trying to see the death of a Noble Phantasm.


And he can do nothing against Gae Bolg.


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## Riverlia (Jun 18, 2010)

I rather doubt he'd explode his brain just seeing the death of a few projected NP, or even NP if it's only one or two (provided it's not something too hax, like, say, EA), he has killed much more mind-numbing things, and projection has lower mystical worth. It's the sheer amount that is the problem

However, yes, Archer is dangerous to even Satsujinki by virtue of being a Servant.

Then again, if Satsujinki ever tries to go against him, he'd do it assassin style, not warrior-style

*shrug*


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 18, 2010)

Archer can't use Avalon, that would require a contract with Saber. He could use the regeneration since in UBW his hand automatically heals from Gae Bolg and even Shirou's Avalon still works without a contract. Anyway Archer has several NPs to invoke, mach 14 BPs, reinforce, copy speed, copy strength and copy skill, his sword bullets, projection to switch between weapons/NPs fast along with his eye of the mind. 



> and i think you guys are overestimating servants a lot, remeber shirou was able to match archers strengh and speed when they fought, and shirou is human with human speed



Oh yes let's ignore Archer had no master had used UBW, traced weapons, was not at 100%, Shirou was getting stronger through some time magic which Archer comments on, the fact they have the same powers or how Archer was'nt invoking or using any serious NPS and that was a battle of willpower/ideals. We could also ignore how Shirou said Archer could have counterattacked despite being impaled but did'nt. Shirou can't beat his older , more skilled, more experienced and powerful self outside of it being plot.



> Archer is below average in agility, but could hold his own against high tier Servants in speed like Lancer



No he's ranked C in AGI not below average and he only held his own against Lancer due to already having fought Lancer before, his eye of the mind which told him to make openings to predict the attacks easier and it was stated he would'nt last long. He barely kept up with Lancer who was a blur. But yes he did keep up with Lancer when he was holding back and that was still impressive in UBW as well.



> ppl overestimated Shirou when it come to Shirou vs Servant, while most of the time underestimated Servants



Shirou can't beat servants he gets credit for the things he did but they usually underestimate him. Shirou would get blitzed by 98% of Nasuverse before he could trace an NP to do something like Nine Lives Blade Works.

Nasu has pretty much said that someone whose Ciel level can't beat an average servant but put up some fight. Archer's H4X and him being a Knight class put him above average. He killed Berserker 6 times despite the large gap and God hand. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36AVKcMvlTk[/YOUTUBE]

21 secs says the fight was some 2 hours

31 secs "His body is dyed red and filled with holes, no place is unwounded"

Life one: His legs have melted
Life two: A Mark of a cut on the neck(Possible decapitation)
Life three: His arm is barely hanging from the elbow
Life four: Slashed from shoulder to the groin
Life five: A large amoung of blood is gushing out from his chest
Life six:  His internal organs can be seen at his stomach

Anyway, would like to see these two meet in canon. Shirou and Shiki are two of my fav Nasuverse characters and seeing alternate versions of them together


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## lambda (Jun 18, 2010)

Tohno's eyes can't see the Death of Servants anyway.


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## Riverlia (Jun 18, 2010)

> No he's ranked C in AGI not below average and he only held his own against Lancer due to already having fought Lancer before, his eye of the mind which told him to make openings to predict the attacks easier and it was stated he would'nt last long. He barely kept up with Lancer who was a blur. But yes he did keep up with Lancer when he was holding back and that was still impressive in UBW as well.


B-rank is considered average, so C-rank is below average to me
And even though he could only keep on fighting instead of getting killed outright with his cool head, I think that count as 'hold his own'
*shrug*


> Archer's H4X and him being a Knight class put him above average. He killed Berserker 6 times despite the large gap and God hand.


His H4x was what pulled him above average, as far as stat go, he's very weak, being a knight class only mean the Servant has magic resistance of some degrees and more often than not, a powerful spirit, but this is not guaranteed


The fundamental problem of Satsujinki vs Archer (since we dont know what kind of level up his eyes got, and it won't be a fair match otherwise, let say Satsujinki can kill Servant) is their different styles

Archer is a sniper/swordman hybrid, while Satsujinki is an assassin

One fight the opponent directly (well, or snipe them directly, w/e), 

One stalks his target, make use of the environment and strike to kill in one hit when the victim is most vulnerable

So the circumstance would affect the outcome of their clash drastically.


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## lambda (Jun 18, 2010)

B-rank isn't average at all. I think you're missing the fact the all the Servants we've seen are among the strongest in their own class. Arturia, Gil, Iskander, Medea and Cu cuhulain are all the best Servant in their class. Herakles is ridiculously broken no matter what class he's summoned as.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 18, 2010)

> Basic ability by class
> Saber
> STR A CON B AGI B MGI C LCK D
> Lancer
> ...



The Archer class is the lowest of the three in stats, their style is more on NPs/long range. B is'nt average else Saber class would'nt be so good. B was average for NPs but eh I suppose it applies to stats as well. 





> And even though he could only keep on fighting instead of getting killed outright with his cool head, I think that count as 'hold his own'
> *shrug*



Not because of his AGI though. If you meant he could hold out against stronger and faster opponents due to his H4X+tactics then yes I agree.


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## Watchman (Jun 18, 2010)

Really? Medea as well? I can understand the others, but... Medea? o_O


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## skiboydoggy (Jun 18, 2010)

Medea was a powerful witch, and she did come from the Age of Gods. Not quite at the level of say, Circe, I suppose, but she would be much stronger than Moses or something.


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## Riverlia (Jun 18, 2010)

Ahh, I just recheck, yep, B rank in stat wasn't mention as average
mistook it with NP rank, in which case, B is extremely average according to Nasu


> Medea was a powerful witch, and she did come from the Age of Gods. Not quite at the level of say, Circe, I suppose, but she would be much stronger than Moses or something.


Look no further than HF4 Caster....
Medea is leaps and bounds better than him as a Majutsushi


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 18, 2010)

Medea could fly
Had regen
Could make contracts with servants
Rule breaker could break contracts
Her barrier was comparable to God hand in rank so possibly B rank
She could freeze time
Her rain of blasts spell was a ridiculous feat of magic
Territory creation
Divine words for faster casting speed
Teleportation
Reinforcement on her master

She's broken as a Caster.



> Look no further than HF4 Caster....
> Medea is leaps and bounds better than him as a Majutsushi



That Caster was'nt even a real Magus, how does a Pirate fall under caster class? He sucked.


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## Xelloss (Jun 18, 2010)

I am glad to see someone give meda the respect she deserves, casters are shafted on the grial war more if you lack a master. But it was admited on heaven fell not even saber with her A magic resistance can stand to medea beam spam.


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## Crimson King (Jun 18, 2010)

I love Nasu threads.


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## BossKado (Jul 1, 2010)

shiki speed and satsujinki's speed are a lot diff, satsujinki is shiki embracing his inner killer and even honing it. and shiki didnt even need any training to be badass he just went killer mode. and we still dont know what he can do with he's powered up meodp. maybe he could he see through the burial cloth and can only see lines not dots. and with that archer mind eye thing, normal shiki has some of killer instincts, what of satsujinki. not sure but i think shiki only gets strain upon seeing the dots.


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## dimhaku (Jul 1, 2010)

BossKado said:


> shiki speed and satsujinki's speed are a lot diff, satsujinki is shiki embracing his inner killer and even honing it. and shiki didnt even need any training to be badass he just went killer mode. and we still dont know what he can do with he's powered up meodp. maybe he could he see through the burial cloth and can only see lines not dots. and with that archer mind eye thing, normal shiki has some of killer instincts, what of satsujinki. not sure but i think shiki only gets strain upon seeing the dots.



Please fix up your grammar and organizational skills 
Satsujinki is not Shiki embracing his inner killer and honing it. That's Nanaya.
Satsujinki is a noncanon version of Shiki who's MEODP have gotten stronger.

Satsujinki is also not the strongest version of Shiki. Manga Shiki, with his feat of cutting lightning (or some sort of electrical discharge) is by far the fastest and has the best chance surviving against Archer.
But still, no version of Shiki is beating Archer, he can only beat Shirou.


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## BossKado (Jul 2, 2010)

satsujinki is the strongest version of shiki and its not just MEODP, killing SA's in SECONDS, instantly killing Louvre the succesor of Nrvnqsr the #10 DAA only realizing what happend after being cut in 2 and beating a magus name forte(who fought Aoko all out and survived) w/o killing her and w/o using his eyes, so no its not just MEODP.
and please, his eyes are too strong he needs to use burial cloth to cover it, so obviously he could do that too. btw satsujinki is a word play on shiki's name which means homicidal maniac or killing demon. not killer enough? satsujinki beating archer is possible


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## dimhaku (Jul 2, 2010)

BossKado said:


> satsujinki is the strongest version of shiki and its not just MEODP, killing SA's in SECONDS, instantly killing Louvre the succesor of Nrvnqsr the #10 DAA only realizing what happend after being cut in 2 and beating a magus name forte(who fought Aoko all out and survived) w/o killing her and w/o using his eyes, so no its not just MEODP.
> and please, his eyes are too strong he needs to use burial cloth to cover it, so obviously he could do that too. btw satsujinki is a word play on shiki's name which means homicidal maniac or killing demon. not killer enough? satsujinki beating archer is possible



Feats of Satsujinki displaying reaction/movement speeds of faster than Mach 14 now or Archer simply uses Hrunting and kills him.

Satsujinki is only an improvement of the eyes and a slight boost to his agility to be on par with Ciel. Manga Shiki, with his lightning/electrical discharge cutting feat is above that.


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## Cypher0120 (Jul 2, 2010)

Who's the new guy?


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## Riverlia (Jul 2, 2010)

> Satsujinki is only an improvement of the eyes and a slight boost to his agility to be on par with Ciel


Arguably above Ciel in martial prowess, as he effortlessly beat Fort, while Fort can hold her ground against a Burial Agency agent



> speeds of faster than Mach 14 now or Archer simply uses Hrunting and kills him


Even with the boost in physical stats, his forth is assassination. Putting him in a direct long range fight against Archer, I call unfair >.>



> Who's the new guy?


Probably a new guy?


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## BossKado (Jul 4, 2010)

for 1 thing satsujinki is an assasin and assasins dont go charging up enemies up front, and that does not include being seen km's away. archer could probably sense him with his mind eye but that would be on close range, and satsu wouldn't be stupid enough to let him charge prana on hrunting.
anything that shiki can do, satsujinki can obviously do too. why? because there the same person.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 4, 2010)

Eye of the mind true rank B does'nt sense people, get out of this thread if you don't even know that basic aspect. You're talking about his reinforced eyes which can see upto 4kms. This is an open battlefield as per OBD assumptions and Archer could snipe Shiki from corners too so Shiki has no assasination advantage over the more versatile Archer. Calabolg does'nt take charge time like hrunting, the same Calabolg that despite missing Caster on purpose and Archer warning her giving her time to use a shield still almost killed her and would have if she did'nt teleport. Archer uses Calabolg more than Hrunting and he would'nt use something with a charge time unless he has distance or can hold his enemy off while doing so.


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## Riverlia (Jul 4, 2010)

Err,  Eyes of the Mind True is the ability to calmly analyze the battle and find a way to bring forth victory, at Archer's rank, he can find a path to victory even when the chance is only 1% (find the path and realizing it are two different matter altogether however)

Clairvoyant is the farseeing ability


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## BossKado (Jul 4, 2010)

ahh i thought that archer could notice something was wrong or detect, before satsujinki could approce him, with his mind of eye(true), which translates to archer being really smart and  keen. hmm so i was wrong, so mind of eye(true) doesnt have the sense ability of mind of eye(fake). ok another + for satsujinki.
even with far sight archer can't easilly spot satsu, because he's not like shirou and saber, cuz he's an assassin, assassins are good at not being seen. 
as for no sixth sense, assassination has a very high chance.


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