# Oro and Jiraiya



## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

Lately I have seen a few Itachi vs Jiraiya threads.

And this claim is just silly. Itachi is on a whole different level from Jiraiya.

So to make this simple. Can the people arguing for Jiraiya being stronger prove that Jiraiya is at the very least stronger then Oro?

After all it is obvious that Oro isn't on the same level as Itachi. So first prove that Oro is the weaker of the two sannin and then maybe you could make an arguement about Itachi and Jiraiya that doesn't involve "Well, Itachi said that even with the entire akatsuki the results would at best be a tie... so... Yeah sure every other word that came out of Itachi's mouth was a lie but we have a good feeling about him being honest here..."



KyuubiYondaime said:


> Oro has been stated to be stronger than Jiraiya in the manga.




So far I see one page pointing towards Oro being stronger, and zero towards Jiraiya being stronger.



Bartallen2 said:


> The Third Hokage regarded Orochimaru as a much more capable Shinobi than Jiraiya, and believing that Orochimaru was some kind of Prodigy that only appeared in every few decades.
> 
> I mean there is a reason why Hiruzen was going to choose Orochimaru over Minato at the beginning for the position as Fourth Hokage.
> 
> Although, Kishimoto had suggested: Rock, Paper, Scissors. No Sannin is superior or inferior than each other.



1 good arguement to which I can provide the pages, and 1 page which point to Oro being the stronger of the two.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

Oro has been stated to be stronger than Jiraiya in the manga.


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## DarkRasengan (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> Lately I have seen a few Itachi vs Jiraiya threads.
> 
> And this claim is just silly. Itachi is on a whole different level from Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



Itachi on a whole nother level? Manga states otherwise jiraiya - Hermit mode =>itachi and kisame


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## Mephissto (Apr 17, 2009)

Stop comparing them. It's useless.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Itachi on a whole nother level? Manga states otherwise jiraiya - Hermit mode =>itachi and kisame



Where does the manga compare Jiraiya's hermit mode to Itachi and Kisame. Please provide the page.


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## principito (Apr 17, 2009)

The reason why Jiriaya would struggle with Orochimaru(And i admit it) is because Oro is a far better match up to Jiriaya then Itachi is. Orochimaru is so durable he can take alot of what Jiriaya can dish out and with Yamata no Orochi he has a force that could take down Jiriaya's summoning force pretty comfortably and one of Jiriaya's main qualities is his summoning and raw power ninjutsu. Have Jiriaya fight some one who is able to take on raw power and survive as seen against KN4 and has a way to overcome Jiriaya's summons and you have a near perfect match up against Jiriaya. 

The only reason Jiriaya is probably stronger then Orochimaru is because of Frog Song which is an insanly powerfull Genjutsu that i don't see Orochimaru being able to break even with his 5 in Genjutsu since its performed by two powerfull Genjutsu users and increased in power via Senjutsu(which is stated to greatly increase the power of some ones illusions). Since Jiriaya didn't even know about Frog Song till Ma/Pa told him about it in a desperate situation during the Pain battle there is no way that Orochimaru was aware of it. Hence Orochimaru's comments and all the evidance that Oro was equal or slightly stronger then Jiriaya may in-fact be valid up until Jiriaya is backed into a corner and summons a hidden power(Frog Song) then he would win.

This works into the idea of the differance in will between Orochimaru and Jiriaya and who would win in an all out battle to the death. The only other thing Jiriaya has over Oro is his stamina and he might be able to barely out last Orochimaru thanks to it. Both of these seem to indicated that Oro would have the advantage during the match and Jiriaya would win after being pushed to the absult limits simply because of the type of Shinobi Orochimaru is.

In the case of Itachi. Itachi would get raped by Jiriaya because Jiriaya is not idiotic about how he takes on the users of Dojutsu we clearly saw this in the Pain battle when he was fighting seriously. He had a barrier to detect people w/o having to look at them, but beyond that he showed exactly what a person should do against a Dojutsu. He went HM using Summons as a distraction(which imo would work against Itachi as well and at worse he could use the Toad Gourd Barrier Space), then he immediatly used the shock of his increase in speed to target not the vitals of the pain body but specifically the pain bodies eyes using a kick the caused them to be swell shut, and then immediatly after that he used a smoke bomb to cut off the Pain bodies ability to use their Dojutsu and proceeded to attack them from behinde within in the smoke.

Itachi would have infinite trouble with any of thse tactics. Itachi really has no way to handle summons outside of MS or using extremely taxing amounts of Exploding Kage Bushin so its likely that Jiriaya could at the very least delay Itachi long enough for HM. Itachi is very likely to not known how fast Jiriaya has become in HM since he doesn't know anything about Senjutsu or the mode itself hence Jiriaya's tactic of a suprise kick to the eyes would likely be effective and if all else fails Jiriaya's use of a smoke bomb to cut of the Dojutsu would spell certain death for Itachi. All of the Sharigan's attributes are useless of the person is fighting in a smoke bomb how can Itachi gain the line of sight to use Genjutsu, Ameretsu, or Tsukyomi while Jiriaya is fighting in the cover of smoke. How can Itachi predict some ones movements with Sharigan if he doesn't see said movements till the punch, kick, attack, etc... is right in front of his face or behinde him.

Jiriaya's tactics against Dojutsu is what would allow him to defeat Itachi while on the other hand Orochimaru always easilly gets pwned by Itachi for a single reasons he always underestimates the Sharigan Dojutsu and doesn't fight like a person such as Jiriaya would fight against a said Dojutsu. Every time he attacks head on and looks the Sharigan user in the eyes even after being pwned by it before, he doesn't try to cut of the the users vision instead tries to fight a sharigan users directly, and he doesn't target the Dojutsu. The way Oro goes about fighting Sharigan users is essentially retarded in the absult sense of the word. 

*So in the end Jiriaya may be stonger then Itachi and Orochimaru or visa versa but in terms of fighting styles alone Jiriaya has a great advantage against Itachi while he would be forced into a life or death battle against Orochimaru while orochimaru has a huge disadvantage against itachi. This is just talking about styles of fighting opponets and i am not even getting into how an actually battle would go and who is actually strongest of all(though by now you guys probably know my position on the subject).*

HERE....  THIS WAS POSTED BY *TURRIN* IF AFTER READING THIS YOU DONT GET IT, YOU NEVER WILL.


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## Bart (Apr 17, 2009)

The Third Hokage regarded Orochimaru as a much more capable Shinobi than Jiraiya, and believing that Orochimaru was some kind of Prodigy that only appeared in every few decades.

I mean there is a reason why Hiruzen was going to choose Orochimaru over Minato at the beginning for the position as Fourth Hokage.

Although, Kishimoto had suggested: Rock, Paper, Scissors. No Sannin is superior or inferior than each other.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

Actually Itachi's fighting style would be far more devastating against Jiraiya due to his weakness to genjutsu and due to the fact that summons can be controlled through genjutsu. 

But to get to that arguement you first have to prove one of 2 things

1 Jiraiya is stronger then Oro.
(So far the manga seems to point towards Oro being stronger.)

2 Oro, Jiraiya, and Itachi are all on the same level. 
(And with the way Itachi dealt with Oro, this doesn't seem to be the case.)


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## eHav (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> Actually Itachi's fighting style would be far more devastating against Jiraiya due to his weakness to genjutsu and due to the fact that summons can be controlled through genjutsu.
> 
> But to get to that arguement you first have to prove one of 2 things
> 
> ...



where is you proof? all jiraya said is that he wast proeficient in using it. its all about how fights move on. jiraya uses ninjutsu and phisical abilities which oro can brush off and regen, while itachi uses genjutsu that doesnt alow oro to do such thing. itachi beating oro has nothing to do with itachi beating jiraya.

jiraya has HM over oro


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## DarkRasengan (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> Where does the manga compare Jiraiya's hermit mode to Itachi and Kisame. Please provide the page.



It doesn't its base jiraiya        ''Jiraiya -(this is a minus sign) hermit mode


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2009)

> Actually Itachi's fighting style would be far more devastating against Jiraiya due to his weakness to genjutsu and due to the fact that summons can be controlled through genjutsu.


Unless Jiriaya puts Itachi in a position where Itachi is unable to cast Genjutsu effectively. 



> But to get to that arguement you first have to prove one of 2 things
> 
> 1 Jiraiya is stronger then Oro.
> (So far the manga seems to point towards Oro being stronger.)
> ...


I would say its closer to 2(though i would make the argument that Jiriaya is an another level then both of them because of his versitility which is what allows him to take the win against both at the end of the day). However Oro's loss to Itachi was not because Itachi is infinitly stroner then Oro is simply because the way Oro goes about fighting a sharigan users directly is retarded and he has no real way apparently to fight a Sharigan users outside of fighting them directly. If Oro was able to just fight like Gai does by looking at the opponets feet he would be able to push itachi to the absult limits and logically i could see him even taking the fight 50% of the time. The idea that Itachi is leaps and bounds above Oro's level is simply based on the fact that every encounter Oro is in with Itachi he acts in a state of blind ignorance and arogent bliss.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

eHav said:


> where is you proof? all jiraya said is that he wast proeficient in using it. its all about how fights move on. jiraya uses ninjutsu and phisical abilities which oro can brush off and regen, while itachi uses genjutsu that doesnt alow oro to do such thing. itachi beating oro has nothing to do with itachi beating jiraya.
> 
> jiraya has HM over oro



Oro is suppose to be good at genjutsu and yet he got raped by Itachi's genjutsu. Don't you think Jiraiya would get raped even worse? 

You know not being the genius of the sannin and all...

Jiraiya uses summons in order to stall for time to get into hermit mode... While he is doing so he is practically immobile. 

What would he do when the summon starts attacking him instead of defending him? 

What would Jiraiya do to escape a 1 hit ko with a genjutsu from the very beginning of the fight?

Nutting he is gonna die that's what.  :ho


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 17, 2009)

I always saw the sannins as the perfect example of Paper-rock-scissors.

Although comparing the feats showed in the manga I say Jiraiya seemed stronger than Orochimaru when he's in Sage mode. Very little difference but...


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> It doesn't its base jiraiya        ''Jiraiya -(this is a minus sign) hermit mode



I addressed this arguement in the OP...


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## Daxcheese (Apr 17, 2009)

Manga wise, all hints suggest Oro is stronger than Jiraiya (past and present). Jiraiya's only hint is that his overall in the databook is higher than Oro's. In terms of battle styles and moves :

1) Snake >>> Frog >>> Slug

2) Manda >>> Gamabunta

3) Rasengan>= Kusanagi

4) Katon >>> Snake jutsus

5) Hydra and Edo Tensei >> Hermit Mode (including ma and pa and frog song obviously)

I used only those aspects that were similar between the two. Overall, Oro is a more defensive fighter while Jiraiya is more attacking. But in general, Oro seems to be in the lead. In the last point Im assuming that the Hydra is a White Snake, and hence can regenerate.

Jiraiya is in Oro's league, but in no way do I feel he was ever meant to be more powerful. The only direct comparisons we had of them were against Jiraiya being the strongest and require excuses to make up for it. No manga page ever suggested Jiraiya was above Oro.


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## eHav (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> Oro is suppose to be good at genjutsu and yet he got raped by Itachi's genjutsu. Don't you think Jiraiya would get raped even worse?
> 
> You know not being the genius of the sannin and all...
> 
> ...




do you realy think Jiraya is dumb when he's serious? its like saying Gai couldnt kick the face off some ppl with his gates because he is goofy sometimes.

tell me, can a sharingan user mantain an eye based genjutsu on multiple oponents at the same time? if he uses gen on a summon jiraya calls another one to hold him off, or breaks it. jiraya has experience over itachi. stat wise, experience is not something u can measure, and jiraya easily tops itachi's. what does itachi have outside of their databook stats over jiraya? since they are equal there, find something outside of them that gives itachi an edge


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## Di@BoLik (Apr 17, 2009)

How is that manga page evidence that Oro is stronger? *Oro* says that there is a gap between them and then asks him to "Give up". If he's stronger than him, he should shut his trap and make him give up. But he didn't. I wonder why..


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2009)

> Jiraiya is in Oro's league, but in no way do I feel he was ever meant to be more powerful. The only direct comparisons we had of them were against Jiraiya being the strongest and require excuses to make up for it. No manga page ever suggested Jiraiya was above Oro.


Yet i fail to see how Oro would live through frog song. As i said Oro probably had the advantage all those years because Jiriaya did not know about Frog Song, however in a life or death battle Jiriaya would win with Ma/Pa suggest Frog Song.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 17, 2009)

We have proof that younger Oro > Younger base Jiraiya.

Weres the proof of Oro > HM Jiraiya.


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## Di@BoLik (Apr 17, 2009)

We also have proof that Oro is weak against genjutsu as he was defeated twice by it. When was Jiraiya defeated by genjutsu?


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## Daxcheese (Apr 17, 2009)

Turrin said:


> Yet i fail to see how Oro would live through frog song. As i said Oro probably had the advantage all those years because Jiriaya did not know about Frog Song, however in a life or death battle Jiriaya would win with Ma/Pa suggest Frog Song.



I dont know how Oro could survive frog song either in base form. But then I dont know what Jiraiya could do to have a chance at beating Hydra. If Jiraiya starts out with HM and ma and pa suggest early on to use frog song, Jiraiya might win against a base Oro. Then a Hydra Oro would crush Base Jiraiya early in the fight. If both start out in their transformations, I give it to the Hydra, though itd be no easy fight for sure.



Elite Uchiha said:


> We have proof that younger Oro > Younger base Jiraiya.
> 
> Weres the proof of Oro > HM Jiraiya.



First, Hermit Mode s a jutsu of Jiraiya. And Hydra is a jutsu of Oro's. So your question should be where's the proof of Oro > Jiraiya. In which case Kishi has Oro state quite clearly theyre equally handicapped, but Oro is still more powerful. If your question is wheres the proof of Hydra >>> Hermit Mode, that would be the same as asking wheres the proof of Sasori's Kazekage beating C3. We're pitting jutsus against each other, and we have no idea how it would play out. The only suggestion given in the manga is that Oro overall is stronger than Jiraiya.


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2009)

> I dont know how Oro could survive frog song either in base form. But then I dont know what Jiraiya could do to have a chance at beating Hydra. If Jiraiya starts out with HM and ma and pa suggest early on to use frog song, Jiraiya might win against a base Oro. Then a Hydra Oro would crush Base Jiraiya early in the fight. If both start out in their transformations, I give it to the Hydra, though itd be no easy fight for sure.


Jiriaya can beat Hydra if he hits it with frog song and then use Gaint Firball Combo with Gammabunta or sinks it with Numa swamp. Once oro is bound by genjutsu he would lose. Though i agree it would be a close battle.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 17, 2009)

HM Jiraiya is a transformation just like SM is to Naruto.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 17, 2009)

Going by Manga statements, abilities, and the obvious parallels to the main characters, they are certainly very close in terms of everything, but in the manga, it is emphasized that Oro had the slight edge in overall.

Also, for general misunderstanding, there is no Base jiraiya or base Orochimaru when the power scaling comments are made. 

Then you have to assume that Orochimaru was referring to 11 year old Itachi without the MS when he admitted straight out inferiority.(well in a sense he was )


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## Di@BoLik (Apr 17, 2009)

Daxcheese said:


> I dont know how Oro could survive frog song either in base form. But then I dont know what Jiraiya could do to have a chance at beating Hydra. If Jiraiya starts out with HM and ma and pa suggest early on to use frog song, Jiraiya might win against a base Oro. Then a Hydra Oro would crush Base Jiraiya early in the fight. If both start out in their transformations, I give it to the Hydra, though itd be no easy fight for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> First, Hermit Mode s a jutsu of Jiraiya. And Hydra is a jutsu of Oro's. So your question should be where's the proof of Oro > Jiraiya. *In which case Kishi has Oro state quite clearly theyre equally handicapped, but Oro is still more powerful. *If your question is wheres the proof of Hydra >>> Hermit Mode, that would be the same as asking wheres the proof of Sasori's Kazekage beating C3. We're pitting jutsus against each other, and we have no idea how it would play out. The only suggestion given in the manga is that Oro overall is stronger than Jiraiya.



Kyōmeisen 
Here is Oro stating Sasuke is his possession, and Sasuke's jutsu is too weak to work on him.


Kyōmeisen 
Here Oro is saying that the little cut won't stop him.

Note, it both cases, his opponent didn't respond to his statements. Oro is an arrogant fool. Stop using that page as "evidence".


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## dandyman (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> So far I see one page pointing towards Oro being stronger, and zero towards Jiraiya being stronger.
> 
> 
> 1 good arguement to which I can provide the pages, and 1 page which point to Oro being the stronger of the two.


So far I see one page pointing towards Jirry being stronger, and zero towards Itachi being stronger.

1 good arguement to which I can provide the pages, and 1 page which point to Jirry being the stronger of the two.


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## Daxcheese (Apr 17, 2009)

Turrin said:


> Jiriaya can beat Hydra if he hits it with frog song and then use Gaint Firball Combo with Gammabunta or sinks it with Numa swamp. Once oro is bound by genjutsu he would lose. Though i agree it would be a close battle.



We differ in how we think the battle would turn out then. For one thing, Frog Song requires prep, during which time its not unlikely that Oro would launch an attack and beat Jiraiya. Even if the frog song landed, I somehow dont know whether the range would be enough to cover all of the Hydra which is the most gigantic thing ever seen in the manga with the Hachibi (although we know Kishi messes with heights). The only issue would be if Jiraiya was fast enough to continuosly dodge 8 heads attacking him.

But again, we differ in how we see th battle coming out, and any more discussion would be a battledome scenario.


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## Daxcheese (Apr 17, 2009)

Di@BoLik said:


> Proof
> Here is Oro stating Sasuke is his possession, and Sasuke's jutsu is too weak to work on him.
> 
> 
> ...



But Sasuke's jutsus were too weak against him. Remember Oro had Sasuke beat in the physical realm, his white snake body regenerated from the wounds Sasuke sliced into him. In the end, Sasuke used Oro's own jutsu to temporarily hold him down. So in effect Oro was right there.

Oro didnt know Itachi's move, he didnt know that Itachi coincidental had the sword that was the perfect counter against him. But Oro fought alongside Jiraiya for decades, to say he doesnt have an idea of whats in Jiraiya's arsenal is wrong. I mean, Jiraiya trained under the Frogs at a young age, theres a good chance Oro knew of a weaker version of HM. Hence his statement actually is perfect. Both were equally handicapped, as both couldnt use their transformation moves (HM and Hydra).


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 17, 2009)

If Jiraiya gets into HM he is = to Itachi > Oro.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 17, 2009)

Orochimaru's comment was what we were meant to believe at the time.

But if you "look underneath the underneath" you'd realize that Jiraiya's handicap was more hindering. But Orochimaru's display compared to Jiraiya was then meant to make us think that Orochimaru without a doubt was superior.

But in the end - the battle with Pain proved otherwise. Even though Pain could've won without underestimating Jiraiya UltimateDeadpool don't get pissy about this comment and feel obligated to respond, he nevertheless acknowledged Jiraiya's power - mainly as thats the only Sennin he's ever fought.

Then Zetsu and Madara further build up Jiraiya's reputation. So if you "look underneath the underneath" here you'd notice there is a remarkable difference on what Akatsuki think of those two of the Sannin. 
That and seeing as we know Senjutsu in Jiraiya's case gives infinite stamina shows Orochimaru had no chance.


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## Senjuclan (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> Actually Itachi's fighting style would be far more devastating against Jiraiya due to his weakness to genjutsu and due to the fact that summons can be controlled through genjutsu.
> 
> But to get to that arguement you first have to prove one of 2 things
> 
> ...



Your first point is invalid. Orochimaru (a biased character) claims to be stronger than J-man. What does that prove? Nothing except his bias. This manga is full of such examples. Hiashi claimed that hyugga is the strongest clan in Konoha. Itachi claimed that only an uchiha can break out of tsukuyomi. sand people claimed that Gaara's defense was impregnable, etc. Now we all know all that those people were all wrong. According to your logic, all I have to do is attach a manga page with Hiashi claiming that Hyugga is the strongest clan to make it true? Preposterous. 

I think base Oro and J-man are about the same with Oro having a slight edge. but once you add in Senin moodo, what can orochimaru do really? hydra form? It is no more than a boss summon! pretty weak. and in SM, J-man can handle boss summons without breaking a sweat (see the fight with pain). Now you will say oro can regenerate, that is fine until he gets blitzered with odoma rasengan (which according to kishi can level a mountain), tell me how he will regenerate then!


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

Elite Uchiha said:


> We have proof that younger Oro > Younger base Jiraiya.
> 
> Weres the proof of Oro > HM Jiraiya.



*
Third Hokage thought Oro was stronger and made him candidate. Oro sayed himself he was stronger. Jiraiya didnt say otherwise. Oro was shown beating Jiraiya on a flashback. Pain sayed they both have different forms. Kishimoto states the rock, paper, scissor in which in that way, Oro beats Jiraiya anyway. No way you put is does Jiraiya come out on top.*
*
Always the geniuses of the group are the strongest ones.* Only exception will be Naruto. Neji is the strongest of his grouo, Kakashi was of his, Minato of his, Shino of his, Sasuke was of his (only one that can change cause is the main character), Shiakamru of his, Oro of his. 
*
I mean, when the Third Hokage was looking for someone to beat Oro in part 1 when Oro invaded the village, the only one who was even thought was the dead Minato, but Sarutobi sayed he was already dead. They never sayed Jiraiya.* Oh sure Jiraiya fans can say "Oh lulz Jiraiya wasn't in the village?" but how hard is it for ninjas to search for another? We see this in missions everytime. Thats why they are stealth and shit and have skills. How long did it take Jiraiya to find Tsunade?  If Jiraiya was really the option for defeating Oro in part 1, Sarutobi would have atleast mentioned it or had some ANBU look for him. Instead it was dead clear that in part 1 the strongest was Itachi and then Oro. Oro was god until he confessed himself that Itachi was stronger than him, but even so some people didn't even believe it at first.
*
If you look at the Sannin arc, you will see Kishi made it look as though Oro was the strongest of the sannin, facing 2 by himself.*

What Oro thinks of Jiraiya "Even with both of us equally handicapped, the gap between us is still clear"

This is what Jiraiya thought of himself:


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## hmph (Apr 17, 2009)

Manga feats place SM Jiraya on an entirely different tier than Orochimaru, and empty comments about hype don't really change that.


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## Sniffers (Apr 17, 2009)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> *
> Third Hokage thought Oro was stronger and made him candidate. Oro sayed himself he was stronger. Jiraiya didnt say otherwise. Oro was shown beating Jiraiya on a flashback. Pain sayed they both have different forms. Kishimoto states the rock, paper, scissor in which in that way, Oro beats Jiraiya anyway. No way you put is does Jiraiya come out on top.*
> *
> Always the geniuses of the group are the strongest ones.* Only exception will be Naruto. Neji is the strongest of his grouo, Kakashi was of his, Minato of his, Shino of his, Sasuke was of his (only one that can change cause is the main character), Shiakamru of his, Oro of his.
> ...



Excellent post. I agree. +reps
Btw, could you please show me the flashback where Jiraiya was defeated by Orochimaru?

Not directed to anyone particular: I think everyone agrees Jiraiya was an awesome character. But he just wasn't that much, if at all, stronger than Orochimaru. But his ideals were far better. That's what counts.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

I hate guys like Turrin and Kyuubichakra because they make me downplay some characters I really like. I swear to god I like Jiraiya's character, but sometimes they make me bash him because of their tardness. Not seeing how what Itachi sayed was a lie but then if you use their same logic that it was stated in the manga that Oro was stronger, they'll make up excuses. Jiraiya had a beast, but Oro had a slight edge.


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## hmph (Apr 17, 2009)

What 'edge'? Oro's ability was to be hit time and again and get back up. That's just about it. Oh he had a sword and some snakes too. Nice. That's gonna do some hurt. Especially when compared to Jiraya, who, well, is just... insane. I often think people think ninja x compares to or beats Jiraya not because they overestimate the character they like but because don't understand just how absurdly powerful Jiraya was.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

Sniffers said:


> Excellent post. I agree. +reps
> Btw, could you please show me the flashback where Jiraiya was defeated by Orochimaru?
> 
> Not directed to anyone particular: I think everyone agrees Jiraiya was an awesome character. But he just wasn't that much, if at all, stronger than Orochimaru. But his ideals were far better. That's what counts.



Sorry, I couldn't find it either, hopefully the Op (Sarutobi Sasuke) can post it as evidence


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

Elite Uchiha said:


> We have proof that younger Oro > Younger base Jiraiya.
> 
> Weres the proof of Oro > HM Jiraiya.



I believe the burden of providing proof that things have changed since they were young falls on you.


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## hmph (Apr 17, 2009)

Please. The 'burden of proof' is just a way of saying if you want to change people's minds you should provide proof - burden of proof is on the one who disents. 

And again, proof is easy to find for anyone who read the manga.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

hmph said:


> Please. The 'burden of proof' is just a way of saying if you want to change people's minds you should provide proof - burden of proof is on the one who disents.
> 
> And again, proof is easy to find for anyone who read the manga.



That's true... I wonder why the people arguing Jiraiya's case haven't come up with any.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi never stated Oro was stronger 

Being picked as Hokage doesnt mean your the strongest. I.e Tsunade.


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## Mr.Blonde (Apr 17, 2009)

Like many others have said,HM packs too big of a punch for Hydra to resist...Its size is actually a disatvantage since its easy for someone to hit it and also easy to avoid.We all saw how Jiraiya manhandled Pain's summons,taking down Hydra will take some more than basic taijutsu but it is possible,and powerhouses like Jiraiya or Pain would make short work of it.

Hydra works only on shinobi up to Kakashi's level,anyone beyond that can defeat it.Powerhouses with massive AOE attacks are the best matchup,but even finesse fighters like Itachi or Kakashi could find a solution.
***
BTW,here's where Oro defeats Jiraiya...
Chapter 439 - Page 08

@Sarutobi Sasuke
I want proof that the Uchiha clan is stronger than the Hyuuga Clan,or that Amaterasu can get past Gaara's defense


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Sarutobi never stated Oro was stronger
> 
> Being picked as Hokage doesnt mean your the strongest. I.e Tsunade.



Yet Oro was the Hokage candidate and we know Hokage is the strongest in the village, thats why Naruto will replace Tsunade soon ^^. When Oro turned out to be evil, he quickly looked at Minato and overlooked Jiraiya.

He also didn't say even mention Jiraiya when he was thinking of someone to stop Orochimaru. Jiraiya wasn't in the village, but they could have gotten him by sending some anbu after him, Jiraiya found Tsunade easily enough. And also, he could have atleast mention him.

He also sayed Oro was a once in a lifetime genius with Jiraiya also being in the team. Oro was clearly strongest in part 1 besides Itachi thats why Kishi was trying to show us by hype He also show us that at the Sannin arc when Oro fought off 2 sannins thats in the manga. Then Oro states he was stronger than Jiraiya even with both handicapped, Jiraiya didn't disagree. Oro was also shown beating Jiraiya on a flashback. The only argument you guys have is HM, because it's clear younger Oro was > Jiraiya. In which case, Pain stated every sannin has different forms, do that doesn't matter.

If you look at it with rock, paper, scissors, Oro is still greater than Jiraiya. No way you put it Jiraiya comes out on top. To make it worst, HM even requires preptime in which case Oro would be pounding Jiraiya to death while he stalls.


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 17, 2009)

Ok so Tsunade is stronger than Kakashi, Jiraiya, and Naruto. Thanks Kyuubi.


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## Bael (Apr 17, 2009)

Being a genius doesent make you stronger.Yes Orochimaru is the greater genius but if you give Orochimaru enough prep time he could beat prety much anyone even Madara and Pain.In Shounen the science freaks are always the most tough type of villains and usualy outlast everyone.


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## hmph (Apr 17, 2009)

If Jiraya was beaten by Oro there, and not simply trying to make him come back, then why is Jiraya alive? Unless you're going to claim Oro suddenly decided to grow a conscience for 3 seconds and then dump it again?

More attempts at claiming hype over manga feats. Jiraya showed vastly greater arrays of ninjutsu, access to a superior genjutsu, crazy taijutsu, and ungodly willpower. Oro has him in beat in durability. That's it.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Ok so Tsunade is stronger than Kakashi, Jiraiya, and Naruto. Thanks Kyuubi.



Back when she was selected for Hokage she was stronger than Kakashi & Naruto. Jiraiya turned down the position and Naruto was chuunin lvl 

Kakashi in part 1 fainted after using the sharingan's basics againts Zabuza and was in bed for a few days, and he was already struggling with his Sharingan when he faced Itachi he sayed it in that fight. Tsunade just had alot more stamina than him in part 1, also she had a boss summon, and thanks to her healing and seal on her forehead she basically couldn't die in battle and her super strength too. 

Now it's another story because Kakashi can now use base Sharingan all he wants and would have no problem predicting all her moves and he also has MS. He clearly improved his stamina alot, but even all his stats improved by alot if you compare them to his part 1 stats. Naruto has also surpassed Tsunade after FRS training and he will take over soon enough.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> @Sarutobi Sasuke
> I want proof that the Uchiha clan is stronger than the Hyuuga Clan,or that Amaterasu can get past Gaara's defense



AM appears where ever the caster's eye is focused on, if Gaara doesn't have his sand up before the jutsu is used then he will be burned alive.

So it can get passed his defense. 

And according to Yondaime there isn't anybody in the world special enough to take down Madara, that includes Pain. Yondaime would also be one of the few people who would know of the the full power of the Hyuuga clan. 

Pain easily tanked the entire village. 

Madara > Pain > Konoha - pnj naruto > Hyuuga

I'm too lazy to provide the step by step pages though.


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## Mr.Blonde (Apr 17, 2009)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Yet Oro was the Hokage candidate and we know Hokage is the strongest in the village, thats why Naruto will replace Tsunade soon ^^


Weren't you paying attention?The Hokage isn't always the strongest.Unless you believe Tsunade>Jiraiya&Kakashi. 





KyuubiYondaime said:


> When Oro turned out to be evil, he quickly looked at Minato and overlooked Jiraiya.


Stop making shit up.Your bias is clearly showing and its making you look pathetic.FACT is we know nothing about how Minato got to be Hokage.How do you know Sarutobi overlooked Jiraiya?Maybe Jiraiya turned him down.Maybe Jiraiya recomended Minato.Maybe Sarutobi wanted Ten Ten's father to be hokage but he refused.Maybe Sarutobi flipped a coin to see who was gonna be Hokage,Minato or the Ramen Guy.My point is WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED,so stop making shit up.



KyuubiYondaime said:


> He also didn't say even mention Jiraiya when he was thinking of someone to stop Orochimaru. Jiraiya wasn't in the village, but they could have gotten him by sending some anbu after him, Jiraiya found Tsunade easily enough. And also, he could have atleast mention him.


He also didn't mention Shodaime,Nidaime,The White Fang,or who knows how many legendary shinobi Konoha produced.Are you implying Orochimaru>Shodaime?Then prove it.Why would he mention Jiraiya since Jiraiya wasn't in the village.And going by your pathetic Snake>Toad>Slug>Snake reasoning,why didn't he mention Tsunade,since she would beat Oro?



KyuubiYondaime said:


> He also sayed Oro was a once in a lifetime genius with Jiraiya also being in the team.


Is anybody denying Oro had the talent and desire to master jutsu while Jiraiya was chasing girls and being a goof?NO.


KyuubiYondaime said:


> Whats that got to do with battle ability?
> Then Oro states he was stronger than Jiraiya even with both handicapped, Jiraiya didn't disagree.


Like I replied somewhere else,was Jiraiya supposed to forget Oro bitting his head off and start to ramble about how he is stronger than Oro?

Again,by your half assed reasoning,Asuma said he was gonna wtfpwn Itachi and Kisame when they were in the village,and Itachi didn't disagree,so that means Asuma>Itachi?:amazed
See how weak your argument is?



KyuubiYondaime said:


> In which case, Pain stated every sannin has different forms, do that doesn't matter.


So like,the Sannin all have different powers and forms?:amazed No shit Sherlock .Do you want your award now?



KyuubiYondaime said:


> If you look at it with rock, paper, scissors, Oro is still greater than Jiraiya.


Let me ask you thisO YOU BELIEVE TSUNADE IS STRONGER THAN OROCHIMARU?


KyuubiYondaime said:


> To make it worst, HM even requires preptime in which case Oro would be pounding Jiraiya to death while he stalls.



Pounding what?With what attack? What attacks did Oro show that could hurt a powerhouse like Jiraiya?Whatever you may think about Oro's abilities,its safe to say he isn't "pounding" anything.The guy is good at taking a beating,nothing else.


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## On and On (Apr 17, 2009)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Oro has been stated to be stronger than Jiraiya in the manga.



This.

& Databook says something about how either the Sannin or their summons have a rock paper scissors relationship;

Oro or Manda > Jiraiya or Bunta > Tsunade or Katsuyu > Oro or Manda

Kind of hard to accept, but it's possible.. _I guess_ >.>


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

So basically nobody is trying to argue that Jiraiya can take Oro... So why are people arguing that Jiraiya could even put up a fight against Itachi who is on a completely different level from Oro?


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## Bael (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> AM appears where ever the caster's eye is focused on, if Gaara doesn't have his sand up before the jutsu is used then he will be burned alive.
> 
> So it can get passed his defense.
> 
> ...



Madara doesent have any feats which puts him above Pain.The only way he could win is if he unplugs Nagato's life suporting machine with his space/time jutsu or usess the Bijuus as a backup otherwise just no lol


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

Bael said:


> Madara doesent have any feats which puts him above Pain.The only way he could win is if he unplugs Nagato's life suporting machine with his space/time jutsu or usess the Bijuus as a backup otherwise just no lol



He has an MS with no drawbacks. He can probably tank in Susano for days. Or whatever his version of Susano is.


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## Bael (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> He has an MS with no drawbacks. He can probably tank in Susano for days. Or whatever his version of Susano is.



Even if he has Susano-o you cant use no limits fallacy for it.If you do then you could say that Deva Pain will simply dispell it with Shinra Tensei or Fat Pain would absorb it  Pain has a counter for everything except mass AoE soundbased genjutsu.Madara can teleport around but he has no offencive feats.


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

Bael said:


> Even if he has Susano-o you cant use no limits fallacy for it.If you do then you could say that Deva Pain will simply dispell it with Shinra Tensei or Fat Pain would absorb it  Pain has a counter for everything except mass AoE soundbased genjutsu.Madara can teleport around but he has no offencive feats.



He has no counter for genjutsu. I forget... Does madara have that sharingan thing which is completely haxed out in terms of genjutsu?


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## Bael (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> He has no counter for genjutsu. I forget... Does madara have that sharingan thing which is completely haxed out in terms of genjutsu?



Sound based genjutsu =/= sight based genjutsu.
They are completly different,soundbased genjutsu usess sound in order to paralyze the victim,the sharingan controls the chakra in the head through visual contact.Thats why the sharingan has such a resistance to sight based genjusu,if you face Kurenai for instance and close your eyes she wont be able to take control of the chakra in your head and you will be safe but against frog song you gonna do nothing,you gonna die


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

Lol, n00b. I will own you quick cause I have some stuff to do.



MrBlonde said:


> Weren't you paying attention?The Hokage isn't always the strongest.Unless you believe Tsunade>Jiraiya&Kakashi.
> Stop making shit up.Your bias is clearly showing and its making you look pathetic.FACT is we know nothing about how Minato got to be Hokage.How do you know Sarutobi overlooked Jiraiya?Maybe Jiraiya turned him down.Maybe Jiraiya recomended Minato.Maybe Sarutobi wanted Ten Ten's father to be hokage but he refused.Maybe Sarutobi flipped a coin to see who was gonna be Hokage,Minato or the Ramen Guy.My point is WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED,so stop making shit up.


*Jiraiya turned down the position stupid* ^^. Tsunade was stronger than Kakashi pre-skip.




> He also didn't mention Shodaime,Nidaime,The White Fang,or who knows how many legendary shinobi Konoha produced.Are you implying Orochimaru>Shodaime?Then prove it.Why would he mention Jiraiya since Jiraiya wasn't in the village.And going by your pathetic Snake>Toad>Slug>Snake reasoning,why didn't he mention Tsunade,since she would beat Oro?


*Duh, cause they were dead? *. Geez he wants someone that can stop Oro. Dead people can't stop him. Because I only used the rock, paper, scissors as a last attempt to show even that wouldn't make Jiraiya stronger than Oro, but Tsunade doesn't have even a small chance of beating Oro.



> Again,by your half assed reasoning,Asuma said he was gonna wtfpwn Itachi and Kisame when they were in the village,and Itachi didn't disagree,so that means Asuma>Itachi?:amazed
> See how weak your argument is?


Dude, get out or read the manga, n00b. The problem was, Asuma was problem wrong when he got overpowered by Kisame and saved by Kakashi. However, look at what happened to Jiraiya directly after Oro sayed: 





> So like,the Sannin all have different powers and forms?:amazed No shit Sherlock .Do you want your award now?


That was a suggestion that it wasn't only because it was Jiraiya that he fought well, but that it was because he was a Sannin. Therefor, it can be concluded Oro's form might do just as well as Jiraiya's dupe.



> Let me ask you thisO YOU BELIEVE TSUNADE IS STRONGER THAN OROCHIMARU?


No, but the rock, paper, scisors shit is just one of the many ways to put Oro>Jiraiya there are tons of examples and I've put all in this thread, re-read the thread and you will see, like Oro flat out stating he was stronger than Jiraiya. Where in the manga has it been stated like that that Tsunade is stronger than Oro? Never.



> Pounding what?With what attack? What attacks did Oro show that could hurt a powerhouse like Jiraiya?Whatever you may think about Oro's abilities,its safe to say he isn't "pounding" anything.The guy is good at taking a beating,nothing else.


Edo Tensei alone would destroy HM Jiraiya. He would get owned even worst than he was getting owned againts the 3 bodies of Pain which he admitted he would have died even in HM because even when he kills them like the Pain bodies with frog genjutsu., they will not die. Hydra can also hurt Jiraiya, Oro can poison him in white snake, or he can cut him with Kusanagi etc.

If it wasn't for Tsunade catching him when he was offguard, Manda was gonna eat Gamabunta alive.

and Jiraiya would have ended up like this:


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

Bael said:


> Sound based genjutsu =/= sight based genjutsu.
> They are completly different,soundbased genjutsu usess sound in order to paralyze the victim,the sharingan controls the chakra in the head through visual contact.Thats why the sharingan has such a resistance to sight based genjusu,if you face Kurenai for instance and close your eyes she wont be able to take control of the chakra in your head and you will be safe but against frog song you gonna do nothing,you gonna die



Or you could always shut your ears... with you know... pieces of clothing or those finger things you have on your hands... 

Sight based genjutsu would be just as devastating against pain though. 

Either way this thread is about Oro and Jiraiya. And a lil bit about Itachi.


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## Bael (Apr 17, 2009)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Lol, n00b. I will own you quick cause I have some stuff to do.
> 
> 
> *Jiraiya turned down the position stupid* ^^. Tsunade was stronger than Kakashi pre-skip.
> ...



How can you compare their handicapps in the first place?Oro didnt know what kind of poison Tsunade gave Jiraiya,also Jiraiya never fought Oro with killing intent until his death Jiraiya saw a friend in Oro.Second the only handicapp Oro had was his hands,Jiraiya on the other hand couldnt use his chakra/power at all.I say having a whole weakend body >>>> having your arms cut off,Oro's style resolves much more around Kusanagi and summons anyway.About Edo-Tensei,thats not autowin,you need shitload of prep and Jiraiya can easely use Swamp of the Underworld to counter it,hell Sandaime could counter it with lame shurikens.A bloodlusted Jiraiya would completly own Oro without much effort.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> So basically nobody is trying to argue that Jiraiya can take Oro... So why are people arguing that Jiraiya could even put up a fight against Itachi who is on a completely different level from Oro?



Cause this is not Dragon Ball, so if A>B and B>C=/=A>C

The difference between people everyone of us "agree" to be on the same tier is minimum and they are extrememly powerful and except its confirmed like in case of orochimaru with Itachi its very hard to tell the difference if both contenders dont fight.

You have to go with feats in different combats and that means mostly assumptions.

Meaning I dont fucking know whos stronger if Oro or Jiraiya, but based on what I have seen I personally think Jiraiya has a couple of things good enough to beat Oro.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

Bael said:


> How can you compare their handicapps in the first place?Oro didnt know what kind of poison Tsunade gave Jiraiya,also Jiraiya never fought Oro with killing intent until his death Jiraiya saw a friend in Oro.Second the only handicapp Oro had was his hands,Jiraiya on the other hand couldnt use his chakra/power at all.I say having a whole weakend body >>>> having your arms cut off,Oro's style resolves much more around Kusanagi and summons anyway.About Edo-Tensei,thats not autowin,you need shitload of prep and Jiraiya can easely use Swamp of the Underworld to counter it,hell Sandaime could counter it with lame shurikens.A bloodlusted Jiraiya would completly own Oro without much effort.


*
Except Oro's arms were sealed so he couldn't do ninjutsu a shinobi is shit without ninjutsu!!!! Hell, Oro is a ninjutsu figher. When has he used ninjutsu? Is nin & tai combinations, just like Jiraiya. Thats no excuse. The manga stated their handicaps were equal and so theyw ere. Without hands, he couldn't punch (Oro punched even KN4) basically he was so handicapped he couldn't use ninjutsu, he has never used genjutsu, and his taijutsu was atleast half affected. Oro was so handicapped that Kabuto had to summon Manda for him, atleast Jiraiya managed to summon Gamabunta by himself. And to make things worst Oro was raping him with what little he had. See? I can do that too 
* 

I can also say Oro wasn't with killing intent. He was telling Jiraiya to "give up" he clearly considered Jiraiya a fellow sannin and atleast didn't desire to kil him. (Not saying he wouldnt have killed him, but he would have prefered not to). Notice how Oro didn't want to hurt Tsunade at first when she defend Naruto. 

HM also takes preptime, in which base Oro would be stomping base Jiraiya. Frog song takes even additional time. 

I can use your logic too


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## Sarutobi_Sasuke (Apr 17, 2009)

Spanish Hoffkage said:


> Cause this is not Dragon Ball, so if A>B and B>C=/=A>C
> 
> The difference between people everyone of us "agree" to be on the same tier is minimum and they are extrememly powerful and except its confirmed like in case of orochimaru with Itachi its very hard to tell the difference if both contenders dont fight.
> 
> ...



Itachi and Oro fought twice, both times Itachi raped Oro.


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## principito (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> So basically nobody is trying to argue that Jiraiya can take Oro... So why are people arguing that Jiraiya could even put up a fight against Itachi who is on a completely different level from Oro?



C'mon, u cant be serious. The thing you are skipping is that actually Itachi stated he couldnt take Jiraya... everything else are fan assuming things.




KyuubiYondaime said:


> *Jiraiya turned down the position stupid* ^^. Tsunade was stronger than Kakashi pre-skip.


Yes, but:



KyuubiYondaime said:


> No, but the rock, paper, scisors shit is just one of the many ways to put Oro>Jiraiya there are tons of examples and I've put all in this thread, re-read the thread and you will see, like Oro flat out stating he was stronger than Jiraiya. Where in the manga has it been stated like that that Tsunade is stronger than Oro? Never.


Orochimaru has braged shit all throughout the manga and most of it is worthless. When a high rank shinobi says that, they there will be a chance... untill then its just a lunatic's personal opinion of himself. (you know better than this that there are TONS of statements like thing all along the storyline)





KyuubiYondaime said:


> Edo Tensei alone would destroy HM Jiraiya. He would get owned even worst than he was getting owned againts the 3 bodies of Pain which he admitted he would have died even in HM because even when he kills them like the Pain bodies with frog genjutsu., they will not die. Hydra can also hurt Jiraiya, Oro can poison him in white snake, or he can cut him with Kusanagi etc.


He couldnt even take an senile ninja down. and if HM needs prep time, I wouldnt even mention that when it comes to Edo Tensei... that jutsu shouldnt even be accountable in a battle... Orochimaru prepared for weeks for that very specific scenario.... thats not something you just pull of of a hat.




KyuubiYondaime said:


> If it wasn't for Tsunade catching him when he was offguard, Manda was gonna eat Gamabunta alive.


Well, in the end Orochimaru has taken more punches from Tsunade than from anybody else.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> Itachi and Oro fought twice, both times Itachi raped Oro.



and what did I told you??


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

MrBlonde said:


> Dude, get out or read the manga, n00b. The problem was, Asuma was problem wrong when he got overpowered by Kisame and saved by Kakashi.


He was overpowered by Kisame,not Itachi.By your logic Asuma>Itachi even though we know Itachi>Kisame and could crush Asuma like a fly
[/quote]
Asuma didn't even fight Itachi lol. Itachi fought Kurenai 



> Oro flat out stated to be stronger than Jiraiya,correct?And that is a good argument?Is that a believeable statement?You don't see any hint of bias there?
> When he just became a genin Naruto said many things,like he was an elite ninja and what not,but does that make it true?
> And no,Tsunade wasn't stated to be stronger than Oro,but that's what your Slug/Snake/Toad thing implies.If you believe Oro>Jiraiya then you also must acknoledge Tsunade>Oro.


So far most statements in the manga have been true, the only one that was a lie because Itachi was proven to be a liar was Itachi's stamement about Jiraiya. But Oro? Oro knows how strong he is and flat out admitted he would lose to Itachi which means he actnowledges his limitations. The whole sannin fight was Kishi's way of showing us that Oro was the strongest sannin.



> Alot of flamebait in your post,which shows you are getting desperate,because alot of people(I'll exclude myself in a show of false modesty ) have handed your ass to you in this debate and proven each and everyone if your weak arguments wrong.
> 
> To me this is a clear sign you can't see reason beyond your bias,so this is my last post in this thread.Have a nice day!



Reported for flaming. And no I have proven everyone on this forum wrong with mangafacts just look through my posts in this thread or read the manga n00b.



> Which proves my point.There are countless reasons why the strongest isn't always the Kage.Jiraiya may have turned down the position before...or god else knows what.


Making stuff up aren't we? No, it was mentioned that the two candidates were: Oro & Minato 



> Minato was dead too,in case you missed that



Yes, but he was the latest Hokage it seems you want them to mention everyone in history that could stop Oro lol in either case they didn't mention Jiraiya sorry go cry me a river. Shodai had happened like 100 years ago.


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## settings (Apr 17, 2009)

First of all, I believe that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are equals in power (as members of legendary team Sannin). Orochimaru is underrated on NF, mostly because of the bad handling of his Part 2 character development, by Kishimoto.

Jiraiya had a final fight vs Pain, where he was able to display his abilities, and Kabuto might be the only chance for Orochimaru's final fight (at 100%).

So, without a flashback of Jiraiya vs Orochimaru, with both characters using 100% of their powers, we'll never know.

On the other hand, there is Sarutobi's statement about Orochimaru, from chapter 94:

According to Sarutobi, Jiraiya was not strong enough to defeat Orochimaru.


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## Bael (Apr 17, 2009)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> *
> Except Oro's arms were sealed so he couldn't do ninjutsu a shinobi is shit without ninjutsu!!!! Hell, Oro is a ninjutsu figher. When has he used ninjutsu? Is nin & tai combinations, just like Jiraiya. Thats no excuse. The manga stated their handicaps were equal and so theyw ere. Without hands, he couldn't punch (Oro punched even KN4) basically he was so handicapped he couldn't use ninjutsu, he has never used genjutsu, and his taijutsu was atleast half affected. Oro was so handicapped that Kabuto had to summon Manda for him, atleast Jiraiya managed to summon Gamabunta by himself. And to make things worst Oro was raping him with what little he had. See? I can do that too
> *
> 
> ...



Oro stated that their handicapps are equal and that isnt true since Oro knows nothing of the poison Tsunade gave Jiraiya.Thats not the main point,Oro can still use his speed,regeneration and Kusanagi without his hands.Jiraiya was besically powered down and without any killing intent.Seriously Oro doesent have any feats which puts him above Jiraiya.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

Bael said:


> Oro stated that their handicapps are equal and that isnt true since Oro knows nothing of the poison Tsunade gave Jiraiya.Thats not the main point,Oro can still use his speed,regeneration and Kusanagi without his hands.Jiraiya was besically powered down and without any killing intent.Seriously Oro doesent have any feats which puts him above Jiraiya.



That was Kishi's way of letting us the readers know that their handicaps were even and that Oro was superior, go cry to him on how Oro knew that their handicaps were even 

The fact that Jiraiya managed to summon Gamabunta showed he was going againts his handicap better than Oro, if he isn't well equipped to fight like that, thats his bad, the manga states Oro was just as fucked up. 

The feats are in the manga but I listed them in the "Itachi didn't lie thread" if you want to look them up, I'm fucking getting tired of repeating myself, over and over again.


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## hmph (Apr 17, 2009)

Uhm. Can anyone point out to me where Oro called their handicaps "equal?" Every translation I've seen has used the word "mutual" not "equal" which have very different meanings. And anyways, Oro isn't the one to make that call. Also, Oro still has his best offense (a piece of steel) and his best defense (his unexplained durability) whereas Jiraya had just about nothing to work with at all. And Oro still couldn't win until he took advantage of Naruto, a liability for Jiraya.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

settings said:


> First of all, I believe that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are equals in power (as members of legendary team Sannin). Orochimaru is underrated on NF, mostly because of the bad handling of his Part 2 character development, by Kishimoto.
> 
> Jiraiya had a final fight vs Pain, where he was able to display his abilities, and Kabuto might be the only chance for Orochimaru's final fight (at 100%).
> 
> ...



Thanks I couldn't find this myself. The fact is, that Jiraiya gave his all againts Pain and still died and thats why people fap to him so much and since Oro has been handled by Itachi like a chump, people here under-rate Oro, but the fact is put Oro in Jiraiya's position and I bet he would do just as good as Jiraiya did.

Not to mention put Jiraiya in Oro's position againts Susano-o and he would be raped just as hard really. 
*

Oro vs Pain:
Jiraiya knew he was facing Pain so he went with his best, if Oro was in his position and also had known, he would have rounded up Edo Tensei and have the two hokages fight 2 bodies, while he fought another in a 3 vs 3 fight, it would have negated the shared vision. Eventually, Oro would have won since the hokages can't die and Pain's bodies could. Oro wouldn't have been surprised and wouldnt have gotten his arm cut off then. And even if he did, he could regenerate and keep fighting and do better than Jiraiya.*


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## Bael (Apr 17, 2009)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> That was Kishi's way of letting us the readers know that their handicaps were even and that Oro was superior, go cry to him on how Oro knew that their handicaps were even
> 
> The fact that Jiraiya managed to summon Gamabunta showed he was going againts his handicap better than Oro, if he isn't well equipped to fight like that, thats his bad, the manga states Oro was just as fucked up.
> 
> The feats are in the manga but I listed them in the "Itachi didn't lie thread" if you want to look them up, I'm fucking getting tired of repeating myself, over and over again.



What could Jiraiya use vs Oro?His hair jutsu? lol  He didnt even have enough chakra for a Rasengan,instead he could only defend himself with his hair.Jiraiya has an overwhelming strength and stamina advantage normaly(look at stats) yet you could clearly see in that fight that the poison was affecting Jiraiya in those points.As i said b4,Oro wasnt that badly fucked up,he had his normal speed,strength,stamina,regeneration and Kusanagi.



KyuubiYondaime said:


> Thanks I couldn't find this myself. The fact is, that Jiraiya gave his all againts Pain and still died and thats why people fap to him so much and since Oro has been handled by Itachi like a chump, people here under-rate Oro, but the fact is put Oro in Jiraiya's position and I bet he would do just as good as Jiraiya did.
> 
> Not to mention put Jiraiya in Oro's position againts Susano-o and he would be raped just as hard really.
> *
> ...



Edo Tensei kages are just to mindless to do any serious damage to Pain,besides that Human and Hell realm are Edo Tensei zombies natural enemies


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## hmph (Apr 17, 2009)

Do you understand anything about Edo Tensei at all?

It requires *live human sacrifices that you stuff into coffins, cover with dirt, and prepare before hand*. And then you must be given a large amount of time to let those coffins rise and let you put daggers in their heads. It would be impossible to use Edo Tensei against Pain even if he had it prepared - one Shinra Tensei would destroy the jutsu before it even began. And even if it succeeded Human Pain can still rip out souls - ie defeat Edo Tensei effortlessly. Oro wouldn't be able to beat 3 bodies of Pain if he HAD Edo Tensei, without it he'd be forced to run from summoning Pain.


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## Bael (Apr 17, 2009)

I dont know why people forget that Pain has a conter to any jutsu  Soul ripping = Shiki Fuujin >>> Susano-o >> Edo Tensei.


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## Yondaime (Apr 17, 2009)

Sarutobi_Sasuke said:


> Lately I have seen a few Itachi vs Jiraiya threads.


 
1) So you make a whole seperate thread just to deal with a couple of quotes? Just respond in the threads you are having trouble with. 

2) This topic has been done to death in the past couple of weeks.

Well anyway, I'm just going to recycle so everyone can keep their post count. And to the OP, feel free to PM me on this matter. I will un-trash this thread if you are to send me a revision of the thread that provides something that sets it a part from all of the other threads on this topic. To be honest, it's just a post made into a thread to get more attention on your points.


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