# Sabo vs Kuzan



## Blanco (Apr 10, 2014)

Loc: Marineford

Remember Ace vs Kuzan? Sabo = Ace + 2 years with Fire DF & Haki.


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## Shanks (Apr 10, 2014)

Yohohohohoho, this thread will be glorious!!


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## Genma1998 (Apr 10, 2014)

Let's just not.


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## hungrytrash (Apr 10, 2014)

.......lol


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## Shanks (Apr 10, 2014)

Okay, we got nothing huh? I am going to say if they fight right now based on match types and power scaling, it will be an extremely difficult win for Kuzan. Sabo might have a little difficulty during the beginning of the battle but as they continue to launch power attacks, Sabo will get use to the Mera Mera fruit more and more and will most likely be able to innovate as the battle proceeds.

After the 5 days of fighting a top tier like Kuzan, it should be more than enough for Sabo to almost master the fruit and would really give Kuzan a run for his money and maybe after 10 days Sabo loses with extreme difficulties.

If the both of them gets heal and have a rematch right after that, then the second time around should go either way.


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## Genma1998 (Apr 10, 2014)

Do we have any knowledge of him being at a level anywhere near Kuzan? No. I mean Aokiji held his own against WB for quite a while without loosing his cool and I could see WB curbstomping Sabo.
The former admiral probably takes this low-mid diff.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Apr 10, 2014)

I'll give you a hint: not Sabo.


Genma1998 said:


> Do we have any knowledge of him being at a level anywhere near Kuzan? No. I mean Aokiji held his own against WB for quite a while without loosing his cool and I could see WB curbstomping Sabo.
> The former admiral probably takes this low-mid diff.


Repped for the truth.


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## Shanks (Apr 10, 2014)

Genma1998 said:


> Do we have any knowledge of him being at a level anywhere near Kuzan? No. I mean Aokiji held his own against WB for quite a while without loosing his cool and I could see WB curbstomping Sabo.
> The former admiral probably takes this low-mid diff.



He has the hype to be on Marco/Benman level even before the last chapter. Aokji held his own against a sick injured handicapped WB. Do you think Marco will get curb-stomp by that same version of WB also? I'm looking at high diff.


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## Rob (Apr 10, 2014)

Kuzan upper-Mid or lower-High, if I'm pulling an answer out of my ass (Just like everyone else here)


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## Daisuke Jigen (Apr 10, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> He has the hype to be on Marco/*Benman* level even before the last chapter.


Based on...?
And who is Benman?


Admiral Aokiji said:


> Aokji held his own against a sick injured handicapped WB.


Who was still the Strongest Man in the fucking World.


Admiral Aokiji said:


> Do you think Marco will get curb-stomp by that same version of WB also? I'm looking at high diff.


Sabo is not Marco. Fail logic is failing.


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## Quuon (Apr 10, 2014)

Kuzan mid-diffs.


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## Shanks (Apr 10, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> 1.Based on...?
> 
> 2. Who was still the Strongest Man in the fucking World.
> 
> 3. Sabo is not Marco. Fail logic is failing.



1. 2nd in charge of the organisation with the highest threat to the world government
2. Which he will high diff Kuzan, high diff Marco, high diff Sabo. No one is stomping Sabo.
3. Sabo has the same hype and now also gained a power up. Try again.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Apr 10, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> 1. 2nd in charge of the organisation *with the highest threat to the world government*


Since when?


Admiral Aokiji said:


> 2. Which he will high diff Kuzan, high diff Marco, *high diff Sabo. No one is stomping Sabo.*


Kind sir, based on what evidence do you believe Sabo is capable of:
1.) Gaining a temporary edge over Whitebeard.
2.) Taking a punch from Jozu with only a bloody lip.
3.) Fighting an Admiral level character for ten days straight (like Aokiji did with Akainu).


Admiral Aokiji said:


> 3. Sabo has the same hype


No he doesn't.


Admiral Aokiji said:


> and now also gained a power up.


Which he has fully mastered just after eating it, amirite?


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## Shanks (Apr 10, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Since when?
> Since when?


Since:
1)	Beginning of the Manga when Oda made this a shounen
2)	When Dragon was confirmed the most dangerous man in the world
3)	And solidifying that status when Akainu gave Dragon’s son the same threat as Roger's son at Marineford.



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Kind sir, based on what evidence do you believe Sabo is capable of:
> 1.) Gaining a temporary edge over Whitebeard.
> 2.) Taking a punch from Jozu with only a bloody lip.
> 3.) Fighting an Admiral level character for ten days straight (like Aokiji did with Akainu).


Based on the hype and portrayal that Oda have being given him and continuously giving him un-expected feats after feats to solidify his hypes and portrayal.

Sabo is top tier and right now his portrayal and power scaling is around Marco/Benmen/Fujitora/Sengoku. The biggest difference between Sabo and the guys mentioned when fighting Kuzan is that Sabo is now a bad match of Kuzan, because he can defend himself with mera mera no mi, therefore making Kuzan’s victory even more difficult should he fight someone else that’s on the same level like Sengoku.

You were wrong from the start and you’re still wrong now. Stop being stubborn. Admirals are monsters, but Sabo is now also a confirmed top tier and holding the power that could easily tank Ice Block attacks and defend against deep and flash freeze attacks.



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Which he has fully mastered just after eating it, amirite?



Once he fully masters it, then this battle will go either way. Right now, extreme difficulties. Very high if we’re generous.


TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> No he doesn't.



You’re in denial.


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## Imagine (Apr 10, 2014)

The victor isn't Sabo.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Apr 10, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Since:
> 1)	Beginning of the Manga when Oda made this a shounen
> 2)	When Dragon was confirmed the most dangerous man in the world
> 3)	And solidifying that status when Akainu gave Dragon’s son the same thread as Roger son at Marineford.


So why isn't the RA part of the Three Great Powers?


Admiral Aokiji said:


> Based on the hype and portrayal that Oda have being given him and continuously giving him un-expected feats after feats to solidify his hypes and portrayal.


Sabo's "feats" are fighting a Commander whose strength level is unknown and shattering an arena. Marco took multiple attacks from solid top tiers (Kizaru, Garp, and Akainu) without running out of regen and had Haki good enough to make every Admiral except Akainu tangible. Aokiji gained a temporary edge over the WSM and changed an island's climate as a side effect. I hope you see the difference between their hype, feats, and portrayal.


Admiral Aokiji said:


> *Sabo is top tier* and right now his portrayal and power scaling is around Marco/Benmen/Fujitora/Sengoku.


Based on what?


Admiral Aokiji said:


> The biggest difference between Sabo and the guys mentioned when fighting Kuzan is that *Sabo is now a bad match of Kuzan*, because he can defend himself with mera mera no mi, therefore making Kuzan’s victory even more difficult should he fight someone else that’s on the same level like Sengoku.


That's strange, Aokiji fought an even worse match for him for *ten days* and grievously injured his opponent.


Admiral Aokiji said:


> You were wrong from the start and you’re still wrong now. Stop being stubborn. Admirals are monsters, *but Sabo is now also a confirmed top tier* and holding the power that could easily tank Ice Block attacks and defend against deep and flash freeze attacks.





Admiral Aokiji said:


> Once he fully masters it, then this battle will go either way. Right now, extreme difficulties. Very high if we’re generous.


Yup, once he masters it, and when we get a better view of his power level, this match can become much closer. However, Sabo *in this scenario*, gets turned into an ice sculpture.


Admiral Aokiji said:


> You’re in denial.


I'm still waiting on what he's done to prove he's at Marco's level...


Imagine said:


> The victor isn't Sabo.


Oh noes, Admiral Sabo will neg you for saying that  the Admiral wins!


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## Magician (Apr 10, 2014)

Kuzan high diff.

I see Sabo around Marco's level.


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## Imagine (Apr 10, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Oh noes, Admiral Sabo will neg you for saying that  the Admiral wins!


They gotta learn the hard way.


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## Extravlad (Apr 10, 2014)

Sabo is overrated as hell, he is not as strong as Marco and would most likely lose to Kuzan giving him nothing more than mid difficulty.


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## Koichi (Apr 11, 2014)

Not on Kuzan's level yet. Kuzan defeats Sabo at low-mid difficulty. If Sabo can master the Mera Mera no mi, Aokiji still defeats him but at a high difficulty.


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## Magician (Apr 11, 2014)

Kiji's not low/mid diff'ing a top tier in any scenario.


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## Extravlad (Apr 11, 2014)

Kuzan can mid diff Jozu/Vista in 1V1, and they are both considered as toptier fighters.


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## Shanks (Apr 11, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> So why isn't the RA part of the Three Great Powers?


What does that go to do with anything? Anyone with half a brain would know that the power of a the revolutionary army based on hype and now confirmed with at least 2 top tiers roughly as strong or stronger than an average Yonkou crew. 




TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Sabo's "feats" are fighting a Commander whose strength level is unknown and shattering an arena. Marco took multiple attacks from solid top tiers (Kizaru, Garp, and Akainu) without running out of regen and had Haki good enough to make every Admiral except Akainu tangible. Aokiji gained a temporary edge over the WSM and changed an island's climate as a side effect. I hope you see the difference between their hype, feats, and portrayal.


You. Are. Wrong. His feat is effortlessly and casually dicking around with a Yonkou commander form a final villain crew and destroying the arena ground, evaporating water, ring out both burgess and diamante and using just enough strength to not hurt the audience and leaving a pillar for himself to stand with 1 HIT. The keyword is effortlessly and dicking around. This means his power is still uncapped and we have yet to see what he’s fully capable of. Therefore it’s important to look at hypes and portrayal to fully understand and give him a fair power scaling.

Marco had strong feats and awesome portrayal and was the second in command of the WB pirates Sabo is the second in command of an organising that’s poses similar thread to the WB pirates to the WG and that’s where the portrayal and parallel stands.

If you’re the type of people who chooses to wait until you see concert feet before you can predict a character’s strenght they I truly feel story for your dull mind with lack of creativity.  Maybe you think Big Mom and Kaido have nothing going on until proven with feats also right?



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Based on what?


Based on everything that’s said. You should stop posting if this is the quality you’re putting out. It makes you look bad.



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> That's strange, Aokiji fought an even worse match for him for *ten days* and grievously injured his opponent.


You need to understand the differences. Akainu uses heat. Ace uses heat. Sabo uses heat. They all will basically do the same thing to Aokiji’s ice, that is melt those ice. It matters not that Akainu’s magma is hotter. The outcome is the same. Ice gets melt and evaporating into steam, therefore these guys are all a bad match up because Kuzan cannot freeze them and making the battle a lot more difficult that it’s worth. This is why his match lasted for 10 days. Should the battle be between Kizaru, it should last shorter.

Take for example if he fights with Sengoku, it would be a lot easier to win, because Kuzan just needs to find a few opening to deep freeze Sengoku, but given the same opening with Sabo, Sabo will not get deep freeze because it’s a lot more difficult to freeze fire.


Speachless and hiding behind gif now huh? I figured as much.



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Yup, once he masters it, and when we get a better view of his power level, this match can become much closer. However, Sabo *in this scenario*, gets turned into an ice sculpture.


His first move had show just as much power as Ace, which we know can melt Aokiji’s ice block moves.

Sabo, even before obtaining the mera mera no mi should already be a high difficulties fight for Kuzan based on portrayal as the second in charge of the revo alone, and giving him the fire fruit doesn’t make him that much stronger overall yet, but it does give him the versatility to defend better against Kuzan, therefore the match will be a bit more difficult for Kuzan comparing to when he didn’t have the fruit.

Like I said, once he masters it, shit is going down, big time.



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> I'm still waiting on what he's done to prove he's at Marco's level...


He doesn’t need to do shit. His portrayal right now puts him at least on the same level as a Yonkou first mate, just as Dragon doesn’t need to do shit because his portrayal puts him on par with the Yonkou.

The author gave us hype and portrayal and to allow us to understand and power scale characters without enough feats and Oda’s given us just that so far. 


TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Oh noes, Admiral Sabo will neg you for saying that  the Admiral wins!



Stop spreading bullshit. You negged me last week because I said predicting Sabo is roughly Fujitora’s level. This week, we got told he’s the second in commander of the revo, which is more than enough to say that my prediction was very plausible, therefore I have every right to neg you back fair and square because you were WRONG. Then you obviously got butt hurt and neg me back again, which is fine. I don’t care, but stop spreading propaganda around this forum.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion and obviously everyone in this thread believes Kuzan wins (including myself). The only difference is the difficulties and I’m not the one who go around and neg people’s opinion.


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## Shanks (Apr 11, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Kuzan can mid diff Jozu/Vista in 1V1, and they are both considered as toptier fighters.



He Mid diff Jozu with a major distraction. In a fair fight, things will obviously be different.


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## trance (Apr 11, 2014)

Even though he's most likely about as strong as Marco now, he can't beat a fighter of Kuzan's caliber. He will put up a hell of a fight but Kuzan still triumphs. High difficulty overall.


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## Shanks (Apr 11, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Kuzan high diff.
> 
> I see Sabo around Marco's level.





Stαrkiller said:


> Even though he's most likely about as strong as Marco now, he can't beat a fighter of Kuzan's caliber. He will put up a hell of a fight but Kuzan still triumphs. High difficulty overall.



What I do not understand is that you guys generally give guys like Sengoku/Marco high diff against a C3, but when we have someone that’s portray to be on the same level as Sengoku and Marco and has the ability to protect himself from the ice, wouldn't the difficulties be higher, at least very high diff?


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Apr 11, 2014)

Color trio are like Yonku level. Even now, Sabo is still a step below them.


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## trance (Apr 11, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> What I do not understand is that you guys generally give guys like Sengoku/Marco high diff against a C3, *but when we have someone that’s portray to be on the same level as Sengoku and Garp* and has the ability to protect himself from the ice, wouldn't the difficulties be higher, at least very high diff?



Garp is stronger than Marco/Sabo. 

Anyway, you have to remember that Kuzan gave someone who was a step above Marco and an even a worse matchup for him an extreme difficulty fight. From what has been shown, the Mera Mera is inferior to the Magu Magu in heat power, so Kuzan will definitely have an easier time than against Sakazuki. That's just the way I see it.



Oberyn Nymeros said:


> *Color trio are like Yonku level*. Even now, Sabo is still a step below them.



Not according to some.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Apr 11, 2014)

Tbh I dont see Sabo beating Marco or Blackbeard, let alone an admiral

Hes Jozu level at best

Kuzan mid diff


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## Shanks (Apr 11, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Garp is stronger than Marco/Sabo.
> 
> Anyway, you have to remember that Kuzan gave someone who was a step above Marco and an even a worse matchup for him an extreme difficulty fight. From what has been shown, the Mera Mera is inferior to the Magu Magu in heat power, so Kuzan will definitely have an easier time than against Sakazuki. That's just the way I see it.



Not sure why I wrote "Garp" there. Was meant to write Marco. 

What you said is true, but it doesn't make the Mera Mera no mi a non factor. I don't actually feel that Akainu is an even worst match up. If anything any form of heat element will caused similar level of difficulties to Kuzan because ice gets melted by heat.

And going back to my original question and hopefully you can answer it directly this time.

Sabo (no fruit) = high diff
Sabo (with fruit that can melt ice) = high dif???

Like I said, regardless of fire not being as deadly as Magma, it doesn't change the fact that it will be alot more difficult for Kuzan to freeze or hurt Sabo compare with when he doesn't have fire.


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## trance (Apr 11, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> What you said is true, but it doesn't make the Mera Mera no mi a non factor.



I never said the Mera Mera no Mi was a nonfactor. It can counter against Kuzan's fruit. Ace was just too inferior in other areas besides DF mastery to properly stand up to an Admiral level fighter for more than a few moments.



> I don't actually feel that Akainu is an even worst match up. If anything any form of heat element will caused similar level of difficulties to Kuzan because ice gets melted by heat.



Sakazuki outright admitted the Magu Magu's superiority to the Mera Mera. Also, while Ace's fire can melt Kuzan's ice, it takes a bit of time. Sakazuki's magma evaporated a huge iceberg in an instant.



> Sabo (no fruit) = high diff
> Sabo (with fruit that can melt ice) = high dif???



Hmm. I see your point. I guess I'll raise it to very high difficulty.


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## Unclear Justice (Apr 11, 2014)

There is nothing going in Sabo?s favor. Kuzan wins.


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## Shinthia (Apr 11, 2014)

The problem is Sabo has not mastered his DF , he just got it. So, he wount have much of an advantage as he should have (u know fire > ice and all).

But, despite that non DF Sabo should be on the same level as Marco/Ben Beckman for being the No.2 of Rav. (which should at least be as strong force as single Yonkou ). So, adding to that a slight DF advantage (slight cause DF is not mastered) i would say he would give Aokiji harder fight than Marco.


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## Mihawk (Apr 11, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> He Mid diff Jozu with a major distraction. In a fair fight, things will obviously be different.



With a major distraction, he took him out with ease, low-difficulty.
I think what Extravlad is saying, is that in a fair fight, he does indeed put up a mid-difficulty fight.


OT: Aokiji mid/high diff


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## Shanks (Apr 11, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> With a major distraction, he took him out with ease, low-difficulty.
> I think what Extravlad is saying, is that in a fair fight, he does indeed put up a mid-difficulty fight.



I disagree. 




Doflαmingo said:


> OT: Aokiji mid/high diff



Care to elaborate? So you think Sabo is only around Jozu's level right now?


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## Gilgamesh (Apr 11, 2014)

> u know fire > ice and all)



Ace's fire couldn't melt Aokiji's ice

And AA Sabo loses ten times out of ten stop being such an idiot


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## Shanks (Apr 11, 2014)

Gilgamesh said:


> Ace's fire couldn't melt Aokiji's ice
> 
> And AA Sabo loses ten times out of ten stop being such an idiot



You must have pretty low reading comprehension if you think I said Sabo wins, and claim Ace can't melt Aokiji's ice.


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## Venom (Apr 11, 2014)

Aokiji's ice did pretty well against Akainu's magma for 10 ten days which btw is even hotter than fire.
So no Sabo's fire is not > Aokiji's ice.

Kuzan High- Mid Diffs

Even though Sabo may be considered Admiral level now I can't see him on Aokiji's/Akainu's level.
He is probably more like Pre Skip Marco level now.


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## Vengeance (Apr 11, 2014)

I don't think current Sabo is admiral level, Kuzan should take  this with mid difficulty up to lower high difficulty.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Apr 11, 2014)

Too early. Perhaps EoS Sabo.



Kuzan mid difficulty.


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## Dellinger (Apr 11, 2014)

Kuzan mid difficulty.


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## Lance (Apr 11, 2014)

If there ever was a true stalemate this would be it! Unless Kuzan takes it because of his better physical stats when/if the battle drags long.


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## Orca (Apr 11, 2014)

Kuzan wins but I don't think it's anything less than high diff.


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## Shinthia (Apr 11, 2014)

people who said Kuzan wins mid diff :

i am just curious wat diff is Kuzan vs Marco in u guys opinion.


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## November (Apr 11, 2014)

Frozen Flames


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## Quuon (Apr 11, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> people who said Kuzan wins mid diff :
> 
> i am just curious wat diff is Kuzan vs Marco in u guys opinion.




High Difficulty win of course, Sabo has shown literally nothing that points to him being able to push Kuzan that far yet. What's so bad about Mid-diff though? It's not like it'd make Sabo look weak.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Apr 11, 2014)

Kuzan High Mid Difficulty or Low High Difficulty . 

Arararara ,,,,


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## Shinthia (Apr 11, 2014)

Quuon said:


> High Difficulty win of course, Sabo has shown literally nothing that points to him being able to push Kuzan that far yet. What's so bad about Mid-diff though? It's not like it'd make Sabo look weak.



its actually not about feat its about hype.

Sabo being 2nd strongest of the Rev. army is a huge hype .IMO Its same hype as being the first mate of a Yonkou crew if not better.


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## Magentabeard (Apr 11, 2014)

Kuzan extreme difficulty, 3-5 day fight probably


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## Slenderman (Apr 11, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> You must have pretty low reading comprehension if you think I said Sabo wins, and claim Ace can't melt Aokiji's ice.



Cut the personal attacks guys. Calling others stupid over an opinion and making assumptions on others reading comprehension is flat out silly. Knock it off guys. 

Dragon is also the world's most wanted man. Not world's most dangerous man btw. 

OT: Kuzan mid-high diff or low-high diff. (As in the upper end of mid diff and the lower end of high diff btw)


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## Slenderman (Apr 11, 2014)

I really don't see Kuzan having a ton of problems with Sabo/Ace's fire. He fought something hotter and matched in evenly as Punk Hazard is half ice half fire/magma or whatever.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 11, 2014)

Kuzan beats Sabo 10/10 fights with nothing more than mid diff


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## Mihawk (Apr 11, 2014)

Having the Mera Mera doesn't automatically mean that you gain a matchup advantage against Aokiji. 

First of all, the Mera Mera was never shown or stated to have an elemental edge over the Hie Hie. That's a fan invented concept based on applying real world and practical logic. 

Secondly, in the clash between Ace & Aokiji, their ranged attacks simply canceled each other out in a stalemate. The Mera Mera did not gain an edge, and Ace didn't melt his ice, anymore than Aokiji froze his flames. 

Thirdly, Aokiji fought equally with an Admiral for 10 days; said Admiral is not only far stronger than Ace, but a magma fruit user with a power demonstrating elemental superiority over the Mera Mera, so elemental superiority is not something that the Mera has over the Hie Hie. 

Lastly, Sabo has just obtained his fruit. No doubt will he be a force of nature with it as more time passes and he uses it more. For now, I think it's safe to say that his mastery of his new power hasn't maximised yet. 



> I disagree.



To each his own




> Care to elaborate? So you think Sabo is only around Jozu's level right now?



This thread must be ironic for you, considering your previous username and your current one 

Either that or between Jozu & Marco. 
I agree with Corus, as far as that goes.


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## Shanks (Apr 11, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Cut the personal attacks guys. Calling others stupid over an opinion and making assumptions on others reading comprehension is flat out silly. Knock it off guys.



I give as much "respect" to the person I reply to.




Doflαmingo said:


> Having the Mera Mera doesn't automatically mean that you gain a matchup advantage against Aokiji.
> 
> First of all, the Mera Mera was never shown or stated to have an elemental edge over the Hie Hie. That's a fan invented concept based on applying real world and practical logic.
> 
> ...



Most people here and including yourself misunderstood. It's not about having element advantage. There was never any element advanatge, but the mera mera right now gives Sabo that 1 extra layer of defense making it more difficult for Kuzan to deep freeze him, therefore making the fight more difficult for Kuzan than it normally does.

You said it best yourself, they cancel each other out, therefore making this a bad match up for Kuzan compare if he fight someone like Sengoku who can’t melt the ice.

Akainu vs. Aokiji have nothing to do with this as no one is saying that because Sabo has fire, he can win. But I will say that because those two’s attacks cancelled each other out, that’s why the battle can last that long. Similarly, a Fire man vs. Ice man will have lots of attacks canceling each other out, so in away the Akainu argument is more in a favour toward Sabo being able to give Kuzan a higher difficult fight comparing to before Sabo have the fruit.

If you believe he's only around Jozu's level, fine. Mid high diff is appropriate because you believe Jozu gets mid dif. What bother me is that 2/3 of the telegraph section has already recognize his strength to be around Fujitora/Marco level or higher based on hype and portrayal alone yet You & Corus still believes  he’s only around Jozu’s level.

Sabo will give everyone those top tier feats today (Manga time). You can bet on it. Wouldn’t that make people who claimed that he get mid dif by Kuzan now looks silly?

I believe Sabo is Marco's level or higher and with that extra layer of defense it will give an ice man an even more difficult battle, though Kuzan still wins.


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## Trafalgar D. Law (Apr 12, 2014)

Aokiji stomps. he cant even beat Doffy


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## Mihawk (Apr 12, 2014)

> Most people here and including yourself misunderstood. It's not about having element advantage. There was never any element advanatge, but the mera mera right now gives Sabo that 1 extra layer of defense making it more difficult for Kuzan to deep freeze him, therefore making the fight more difficult for Kuzan than it normally does.
> 
> You said it best yourself, they cancel each other out, therefore making this a bad match up for Kuzan compare if he fight someone like Sengoku who can’t melt the ice.
> 
> Akainu vs. Aokiji have nothing to do with this as no one is saying that because Sabo has fire, he can win. But I will say that because those two’s attacks cancelled each other out, that’s why the battle can last that long. Similarly, a Fire man vs. Ice man will have lots of attacks canceling each other out, so in away the Akainu argument is more in a favour toward Sabo being able to give Kuzan a higher difficult fight comparing to before Sabo have the fruit.



Nah, I was responding to the idea that the Mera Mera gives Sabo an "advantage".



> If you believe he's only around Jozu's level, fine. Mid high diff is appropriate because you believe Jozu gets mid dif. What bother me is that 2/3 of the telegraph section has already recognize his strength to be around Fujitora/Marco level or higher based on hype and portrayal alone yet You & Corus still believes  he’s only around Jozu’s level.
> 
> Sabo will give everyone those top tier feats today (Manga time). You can bet on it. Wouldn’t that make people who claimed that he get mid dif by Kuzan now looks silly?
> 
> I believe Sabo is Marco's level or higher and with that extra layer of defense it will give an ice man an even more difficult battle, though Kuzan still wins.



Why should it "bother you'' at all?  

So because a majority(with many riding on the hype train) believes that he's Admiral level, I have to, too? That's sheep-like. I don't give a rat's ass about what two-thirds of this section thinks. I've barely seen anything from the Revolutionary Army to get a good enough idea of the layout of their power structure/hierarchy, so I don't know how strong Sabo actually is, though I also think he shouldn't be far from a YFM. 

 Sabo's feats are pretty nice as they are now. Yes, I'm sure he's going to show us some top tier feats as more chapters come by, but until then, I'm not gonna suddenly say he's Admiral level. 

Even Jozu had better feats upon his official introduction. The same goes for Fujitora, and from what we've seen so far, Sabo doesn't even belong in the same conversation as Aokiji & Garp, even though I'm sure he'll give them a good fight when push comes to shove, and that they would have to recognise him as an individual threat.


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## Shanks (Apr 12, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Why should it "bother you'' at all?


Because when You & Corus say something, sheeps here generally agree indirectly. 



Doflαmingo said:


> So because a majority(with many riding on the hype train) believes that he's Admiral level, I have to, too? That's sheep-like. I don't give a rat's ass about what two-thirds of this section thinks. I've barely seen anything from the Revolutionary Army to get a good enough idea of the layout of their power structure/hierarchy, so I don't know how strong Sabo actually is, though I also think he shouldn't be far from a YFM.


You do not have to jump on the hype train and follow the majority, but it’s important to note the reasons why the majority agrees and take that into consideration when making your own decision on what to believe.

You said it here. You don’t know. But instead of sitting on the fence line, you gave a clear answer and essentially joining the other extreme, yet you’re not quite sure yourself. 



Doflαmingo said:


> Sabo's feats are pretty nice as they are now. Yes, I'm sure he's going to show us some top tier feats as more chapters come by, but until then, I'm not gonna suddenly say he's Admiral level.


And here you recognize that it is plausible that Sabo will give us top tier feats but instead of choosing to recognized your belief you chose to contradict and put him a sub tier below that, which is unfair to the character.

Did people have any doubt that Akainu was a top tier at the beginning of Marineford? Did anyone say that Aokiji was superior until Akainu show some top tier feats first? Did people have any doubt that Kaido is solid top tier? Would anyone give Kaido mid difficulties should he gets match up with another top tier here?
Why does Sabo need to show those top tier feats before we can recognize his strength based on hype and portrayal? Marco believers know that Marco can kick harder despite him not having any stronger offensive feats because he has the hype and portrayal to back this claim up. Why would it be different for Sabo?




Doflαmingo said:


> Even Jozu had better feats upon his official introduction. The same goes for Fujitora, and from what we've seen so far, Sabo doesn't even belong in the same conversation as Aokiji & Garp, even though I'm sure he'll give them a good fight when push comes to shove, and that they would have to recognise him as an individual threat.


The problem here is that we’re going back to the feats argument again. Sabo was introduced as the second in charge of the revo, which is essentially the same hype as a newly appointed Marine Admiral. Why is it not enough to give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s dead equal to Fujitora even without the fruit?


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## Shinthia (Apr 12, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> So because a majority(with many riding on the hype train) believes that he's Admiral level, I have to, too? That's sheep-like.* I don't give a rat's ass about what two-thirds of this section thinks*. I've barely seen anything from the Revolutionary Army to get a good enough idea of the layout of their power structure/hierarchy, so I don't know how strong Sabo actually is, though I also think he shouldn't be far from a YFM.



yes, u do not give a rats ass about others opinion , we get it. But, u should consider the hype that is the 2nd strongest guy of the Rev. army. and that is b4 getting the Mera DF. (its not someones opinion )


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## Mihawk (Apr 12, 2014)

> Because when You & Corus say something, sheeps here generally agree indirectly.



That's their problem. I say what I think, and not with the intent of influencing other people in mind.
Honestly, it shouldn't bother you or make you feel too adamant about it.  This is a character vs thread, not an election campaign. 



> You do not have to jump on the hype train and follow the majority, but it’s important to note the reasons why the majority agrees and take that into consideration when making your own decision on what to believe.
> 
> You said it here. You don’t know. But instead of sitting on the fence line, you gave a clear answer and essentially joining the other extreme, yet you’re not quite sure yourself.



No I didn't, I didn't lay it down like it was gospel truth either, your mistaken. 

It's certainly possible that Sabo is as strong as a YFM or exceptional ones like Marco. At the same time, it may not be the case at all. 



> And here you recognize that it is plausible that Sabo will give us top tier feats but instead of choosing to recognized your belief you chose to contradict and put him a sub tier below that, which is unfair to the character.



As usual, your just trying to make what I'm saying seem contradictory or inconsistent, but really your just speaking for me when your not really grasping. That attempt at misrepresenting what I'm saying, goes down the drain when I can just very well say that I am making the conjecture that Sabo and Jozu are top tier, but the weakest ones. 





> Did people have any doubt that Akainu was a top tier at the beginning of Marineford? Did anyone say that Aokiji was superior until Akainu show some top tier feats first? Did people have any doubt that Kaido is solid top tier? Would anyone give Kaido mid difficulties should he gets match up with another top tier here?



I wasn't a user when the Admirals were introduced. I'm not sure what kind of abstract point you are attempting to illustrate here, but with the Admirals, we had the other Admirals to set the standard. With the Yonko, the same applies. 



> Why does Sabo need to show those top tier feats before we can recognize his strength based on hype and portrayal? Marco believers know that Marco can kick harder despite him not having any stronger offensive feats because he has the hype and portrayal to back this claim up. Why would it be different for Sabo?



Is it so absurd to desire to see how Sabo performs against another top tier first? Your acting like I'm using the mentality of "no feats, not top tier". Never said that, so coming at me like this is pointless. If you're on the fence for this, then the same applied for me since the very start. I was never putting my feet down(at least not until the full package of his showings are included)





> The problem here is that we’re going back to the feats argument again. Sabo was introduced as the second in charge of the revo, *which is essentially the same hype as a newly appointed Marine Admiral.* Why is it not enough to give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s dead equal to Fujitora even without the fruit?



Not necessarily. It's impossible to say with certainty or how it is essential, that these two ranks are equivalent without having a clear understanding of the Revos' power structure, which we haven't even caught a glimpse of, so how can we say he would be dead equal by default to Fujitora?

But all of this is just pointless talk really, since Sabo hasn't gotten a decent opponent who can truly test him yet. He's only been officially introduced in the most recent chapter. Give him a bit of time in this arc, and we'll know anyways. If he proves me wrong in Dressrosa, I'll gladly accept that he's Admiral level. 





Lionel Messi said:


> yes, u do not give a rats ass about others opinion , we get it. But, u should consider the hype that is the 2nd strongest guy of the Rev. army. and that is b4 getting the Mera DF. (its not someones opinion )






> Either that(Jozu Level) or between Jozu & Marco





> I've barely seen anything from the Revolutionary Army to get a good enough idea of the layout of their power structure/hierarchy, so I don't know how strong Sabo actually is, though I also think he shouldn't be far from a YFM.


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## Unclear Justice (Apr 12, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Either that(Jozu Level) or between Jozu & Marco.



I agree on that.


The way I see it being Dragon?s right hand man is comparable to being a Yonko First Mate in hype. 

Of all YFM?s Marco?s hype is slightly the best for being Whitebeard?s right hand man. Also he has the best feats of them. Thus Marco is the upper end of YFM level. With Sabo hypewise being somewhere on that level and his feats not exceeding said level the conclusion is that he is below Marco. Jozu is pretty much the only one we can confidently put into this area at this point in time.

=> 





Doflαmingo said:


> Either that(Jozu Level) or between Jozu & Marco.


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## Shanks (Apr 12, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> It's certainly possible that Sabo is as strong as a YFM or exceptional ones like Marco. At the same time, it may not be the case at all.



They why not agree to say there’s not enough feats and information to recognize his true strength, therefore the difficulties can vary between mid – very high difficulties. Mid if the revo and Sabo doesn’t live up to the hype but very high difficulties should he prove himself to be just as impressive as Marco?


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## Mihawk (Apr 12, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> I agree on that.
> 
> 
> The way I see it being Dragon?s right hand man is comparable to being a Yonko First Mate in hype.
> ...



Eloquently put. 
You've explained it better than I have.



Admiral Aokiji said:


> They why not agree to say there?s not enough feats and information to recognize his true strength, *therefore the difficulties can vary between mid ? very high difficulties.* Mid if the revo and Sabo doesn?t live up to the hype but very high difficulties should he prove himself to be just as impressive as Marco?



I did say that bro. 
Look at my first post in the thread.


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## Shanks (Apr 12, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Eloquently put.
> 
> I did say that bro.
> Look at my first post in the thread.



You said "OT: Aokiji mid/high diff".  <=== it sounded like you're saying the higher end of mid diff. And even if this was a miscommunication, I would still challenge you that it should be very high - extreme difficulties should he be on Marco's level (instead of high per your post).


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## Mihawk (Apr 12, 2014)

then you've clearly misunderstood

and your problem is how adamant you are towards even the most minute points of opinion to the point where even the smallest margin of difficulty matters, when it really shouldn't yet 

nope, as of now, don't see it being extreme difficulty, but that's just me I guess


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## Shanks (Apr 12, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> and your problem is how adamant you are towards even the most minute points of opinion to the point where even the smallest margin of difficulty matters, when it really shouldn't yet



  Guess I'll back off then, cuz I don't want to be that guy.


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## Shinthia (Apr 12, 2014)

Trafalgar D. Law said:


> Aokiji stomps. he cant even beat Doffy









@Doflamingo:

We dont know how Rev. army structure is.But, its said he is No.2 of Rev army, not leader of 2nd division. The obvious and most logical thing to assume is that he is the 2nd strongest (unless Oda clears that the rank does not based on strength) and Marco or Ben B. is 2nd in rank too. So, i just dont get it why u would go out of ur way to assume Sabo is ~ to the 3rd strongest yonkou member instead of no 2.


then again its just _ur _opinion. So, its understandable for _certain _reason


@UJ
we have not seen other FM to assume that. Sameway one can always say , because Marco's captain was the WSM, the first mate is a bit weaker then usual to balance things out with other yonkou. But, i wount say that.

and to point another thing out. this Sabo is not = No.2 of Rev. Army, current Sabo is stronger than that after eating the mera.


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## Shanks (Apr 12, 2014)

@ Lionel Messi, it appears that these two are what Freechoice would consider "Fence Sitter". I guess there's nothing wrong with that, though just a little uninteresting.


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## The Bloody Nine (Apr 12, 2014)

So i'll be the first to say it. Imo Sabo wins extreme difficulty. 

There is too much going against Kuzan for him to take the win:

DF mechanics Fire > Ice. If a half dead Ace can completely negate his attacks then Sabo can do better. 
Aokiji is injured. At this level Aokiji needs to be at his best and well he's not because hes missing a leg. 

I think we can all agree that Sabo has almost equivalent haki so Kuzan's only real advantage is experience fighting a top tier seriously while Sabo will only have been sparring with Dragon.


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## Unclear Justice (Apr 12, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> @UJ
> we have not seen other FM to assume that. Sameway one can always say , because Marco's captain was the WSM, the first mate is a bit weaker then usual to balance things out with other yonkou. But, i wount say that.


Even if you negate hype the way you do here, Marco still has to be considered the strongest because he has the best feats.



> and to point another thing out. this Sabo is not = No.2 of Rev. Army, current Sabo is stronger than that after eating the mera


This Sabo is still No.2 of the Revos. His DF doesn?t change that.




Admiral Aokiji said:


> @ Lionel Messi, it appears that these two are what Freechoice would consider "Fence Sitter". I guess there's nothing wrong with that, though just a little uninteresting.



Where are we fence sitting? We clearly stated our opinions.


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## Freechoice (Apr 12, 2014)

.


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## Shanks (Apr 12, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Where are we fence sitting? We clearly stated our opinions.



Too bad the opinion are somewhere in the line of Mid or High Dif, between Jozu and Marco, between Low Top Tier and Mid Top Tier. Right now, almost 100% of the members in this forum (besides trolls) believes somewhere along that line, therefore you guys are the "more reasonable members", "fence sitters" or for lack of better words "boring debaters".


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## Shanks (Apr 12, 2014)

The Bloody Nine said:


> So i'll be the first to say it. Imo Sabo wins extreme difficulty.
> 
> There is too much going against Kuzan for him to take the win:
> 
> ...



What The Fuck? Are you trolling? There is nothing going against Kuzan. Fire isn’t > Ice. They just cancel each other out for the most part. Right now, Sabo cannot do better, if anything he would do worst than Ace and he confirmed it already by saying the power is difficult to control and he needs time to learn to control it before he could do a better job than Ace.

Aokiji losing a leg should not affect his fighting abilities, just as Shanks’ losing an arm doesn’t, just as Fuji going blind doesn’t. If anything Kuzan should be stronger than before the time skip because he’s had two years if fighting off enemies who want his head now that he’s no longer part of the marines.

I don’t believe experience is an issue here and I have no doubt Sabo has C3 level haki, but Sabo still lacks a DF mastery, which he will need time before he could take on and win against a post skip C3.

I feel this could be an extremely difficult battle for Kuzan, but he would still win 10/10... for now.


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## Coruscation (Apr 12, 2014)

I tentatively place Sabo at about as strong as Jozu whom I believe Kuzan would defeat with mid difficulty. However Sabo seems like a better match-up, what with now being a Fire Logia, and there's a chance that Sabo is slightly stronger than Jozu. So Aokiji wins with either mid or high difficulty.


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## Shinthia (Apr 12, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Even if you negate hype the way you do here, Marco still has to be considered the strongest because he has the best feats.
> 
> 
> This Sabo is still No.2 of the Revos. His DF doesn?t change that.



correction , he is the only one with feats. and no we dont have to consider him to be strongest ,we just get an idea that an YFM will be as strong as Marco, give or take


Even if Sabo became twice strong as he were b4 mera, he will still remain No.2 . So, i dont know what u r trying to accomplice by saying that.


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## Unclear Justice (Apr 12, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> correction , he is the only one with feats. and no we dont have to consider him to be strongest ,we just get an idea that an YFM will be as strong as Marco, give or take



If you had to guess which YFM is the strongest, who would it be and why?




> Even if Sabo became twice strong as he were b4 mera, he will still remain No.2 . So, i dont know what u r trying to accomplice by saying that.



Sabo being Dragon?s right hand man is the best thing he has going for him. A low level mastery of the Mera Mera pales in comparison to that which makes the difference between Sabo last chapter and current Sabo neglectable in the grand scheme of things.


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## JeffHamos (Apr 12, 2014)

Not enough feats.


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## X18999 (Apr 12, 2014)

I'd give the fight to Aokiji but the guy is going to have another perm injury when he's done.


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## Shinthia (Apr 12, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> If you had to guess which YFM is the strongest, who would it be and why?



impossible to tell right now cause other guys have no feats and dont have different hype other then just being the YFM. But, if i go by my gut feeling (and may be the Kizaru panel) then i would say Ben B. is the strongest.




> Sabo being Dragon?s right hand man is the best thing he has going for him. A low level mastery of the Mera Mera pales in comparison to that which makes the difference between Sabo last chapter and current Sabo neglectable in the grand scheme of things.



we have seen people fight with there DF effectively (who btw had no knowledge of how that DF works unlike Sabo) against an stronget opponent just after few hours/mins of getting the DF (Kaku/Kalifa). Just look at Sabo ,he got the DF literally sec ago and he already used hiken so perfectly.besides, a fire is a perfect counter for a ice user , so theres also that.

but, all of this does not matter cause Mera Sabo > no DF Sabo , is an obvious truth.


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## Lmao (Apr 12, 2014)

Unless the Revolutionaries are a bunch of weaklings then being 2nd in command is a pretty big deal, Sabo should be stronger than Jozu even without the fruit.

Aokiji very high difficulty.


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## kidgogeta (Apr 12, 2014)

How the flying fck can ppl say Sabo has any chance when we aren't even sure if Dragon himself could win? You can't scale Sabo without knowing how Dragon compares to the Yonkous. I'm calling mid diff. High diff would be Marco / Ben Beckman and there is no way sabo is there yet imo.


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## Unclear Justice (Apr 12, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> impossible to tell right now cause other guys have no feats and dont have different hype other then just being the YFM. But, if i go by my gut feeling (and may be the Kizaru panel) then i would say Ben B. is the strongest.




It?s easy to find holes in theories about topics where every theory *has to have holes* due to the lack of information. Of course you attack my theory because you don?t like the result of it but as long as you are not able to come with your own theory based on arguments better than gut feeling you shouldn?t be the one throwing stones. This is not sportsmanlike.




> - snip -
> 
> but, all of this does not matter cause *Mera Sabo > no DF Sabo *, is an obvious truth.



By an unquantifiable amount. 
No matter how high the gap is, it can?t be proven at this point.


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## Shinthia (Apr 12, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> It?s easy to find holes in theories about topics where every theory *has to have holes* due to the lack of information. Of course you attack my theory because you don?t like the result of it but as long as you are not able to come with your own theory based on arguments better than gut feeling you shouldn?t be the one throwing stones. This is not sportsmanlike.



what r u talking about ? i just disagreed with u and i stated u why is that ? I did not attack u,now did i ? 
If u were expecting a Doflamingo like reply. like yes, i agree. Yes, u r absolutely right. Take my rep etc.  . then sorry. I quote people when i disagree with them and try to show them why is that.Hopping that they would change their mind or they will make me change my mind.



> By an unquantifiable amount.
> No matter how high the gap is, it can?t be proven at this point.



no one can prove how much he got stronger.But, its a fact that he got stronger.


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## Biased as Fuck (Apr 12, 2014)

Kuzan would mid diff Sablow......


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## Unclear Justice (Apr 12, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> what r u talking about ? i just disagreed with u and i stated u why is that ? I did not attack u,now did i ?



No, you didn?t attack me, only my initial statement.



> If u were expecting a Doflamingo like reply. like yes, i agree. Yes, u r absolutely right. Take my rep etc.  . then sorry.



Nah! I wasn?t expecting that. You and Luke are both unique. 



> I quote people when i disagree with them and try to show them why is that.Hopping that they would change their mind or they will make me change my mind.



This is fine but you can?t expect someone to change his mind if you can?t provide an alternative concept to his idea. Out of all options to choose from your opposite still only knows the reasoning behind one of them. Do you understand what I mean?



> no one can prove how much he got stronger.But, its a fact that he got stronger.



I think everyone acknowledges this. It?s just hard draw further conclusions based on that alone.


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## Mihawk (Apr 12, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Too bad the opinion are somewhere in the line of Mid or High Dif, between Jozu and Marco, between Low Top Tier and Mid Top Tier. Right now, almost 100% of the members in this forum (besides trolls) believes somewhere along that line, therefore you guys are the "more reasonable members", "fence sitters" or for lack of better words "boring debaters".



Like I said, the percentage of the members who believe one thing or another, is irrelevant. Doesn't change the reality of how things stand, which we may discover soon anyways. 

It's not about sitting on the fence this time around. Just that It's an absolute headache to get into drawn out arguments just to arrive at a consensus on whether it's "low high diff", "high mid-diff", or "mid to high diff". It just feels so dumb to get into page long "debates" over something so trivial. 

If being boring means reasonable, I'd take being that over switching stances or being nonsensical all day long.




> If u were expecting a Doflamingo like reply. like yes, i agree. Yes, u r absolutely right. Take my rep etc.  . then sorry.



What the hell are you on about? Don't assume too much.


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## Admiral Fujitorax (Apr 12, 2014)

Kuzan-san win high diff. I win extreme diff.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 12, 2014)

He should be comfortably stronger than Luffy... but not as powerful as Marco. 

Kuzan takes the victory with moderate difficulty (higher end)/high difficulty (lower end); it's impossible to say at this point, though.

In the future, I think Sabo will be able to defeat Kuzan; he just acquired the fruit, after all.


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## Lawliet (Apr 12, 2014)

They have holes/flaws because they are called theories. If they weren't called theories they wouldn't have any holes or flaws, they would be called facts.


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## Lawliet (Apr 12, 2014)

> He should be comfortably stronger than Luffy... but not as powerful as Marco.



Anyone who is "comfortably" stronger than Luffy is definitely a Marco level.


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## Shanks (Apr 12, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> If being boring means reasonable, I'd take being that over switching stances or being nonsensical all day long.



Well, by boring, I mean there's nothing to debate for or against. I wouldn't say the fanboys of 1 extreme or another to be nonsensical  though... but anyway.


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