# How strong is Kurenai?



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 13, 2016)

The second databook writes that she is about as skilled at genjutsu as Itachi is, and the third databook writes that she can use her crimson eyes to get the truth out of her enemies instantly, and "lure them to a place far beyond genjutsu", suggesting that she possesses some powerful illusions. 

She's fast enough to break herself out of Itachi's genjutsu, and then immediately dodge and block his attacks in quick succession. She has a 4 in speed and taijutsu according to the DB.

She can disappear in an instant using genjutsu, and she can reappear wherever she wants. And its difficult to tell whether she disappears using genjutsu or ninjutsu, meaning opponents will not necessarily try to dispel her illusion immediately.

She could catch multiple people in genjutsu at once, and its impossible to break themselves out of her Tree Binding Death using the _Genjutsu: Kai_. 

Kurenai can probably use basic genjutsu in masterful ways, like the _Magen: Kokoni Arazu no Jutsu_ (the one used by Kotetsu in the Chuunin Exam), which makes the target believe they're in an area different to the one they're actually in. Or the Kori Shinchū no Jutsu, used by fodder Oboro. It warps the target's sense of direction, which I'd guess could be used to land critical hits more easily if used by an expert like Kurenai. 

So..where do people rank her?​​


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## Finalbeta (Apr 13, 2016)

Orochimaru beats her

Mmm  

But she can give him a fight I guess


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## LostSelf (Apr 13, 2016)

Below the Top Jounin of Konoha, Gai and Kakashi (even though they are Kage level).

Probably around Asuma level or weaker.


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## Trojan (Apr 13, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Below the Top Jounin of Konoha, Gai and Kakashi (even though they are Kage level).
> 
> Probably around Asuma level or weaker.



Can any of those dodge Sasuke-Sannin level power and superior speed? No?

Kurnai did.


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## LostSelf (Apr 13, 2016)

Well, 7th Gated Gai would wreck Hebi Sasuke, so why not? .

But you're right. Kurenai should be Itachi level .


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## Alex Payne (Apr 13, 2016)

Slightly below Asuma imo. She was the newest member of Konoha's top group of Jonin in Part 1 and kinda looked less experienced.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 13, 2016)

Probably slightly below Asuma, but reasonably skilled in all aspects of combat.


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## Trojan (Apr 13, 2016)

Why did you delete my posts, silly goose?  

Kurnai did indeed react to itachi's speed when he was trying to kill her.
And she did that right after she broke his Genjutsu (That supposedly no one can do as such)
here

She did dodge the first one and managed to defend herself from the second one. A lot of people were wanking
Madara because he defended himself from A. And since people here consider both itachi and Sasuke to be extremely fast characters, that should be taken as an amazing feat as well to her.

Hebi Sasuke, one of the most overrated characters here gets a lot of wank for his speed, and yet he got kicked
and couldn't even protect himself with his hands or whatnot


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## Matty (Apr 13, 2016)

What everyone else said. She's a solid jonin around Asum's level. They are probably equal but we never got to see much more from her.


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## Mithos (Apr 13, 2016)

She's probably roughly equal to Asuma, and I would put her above Gai without the Gates. 

Solid elite jounin. It's unfortunate that her only display on panel was against Itachi and from Part 1 before the power inflation.


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## Itachі (Apr 13, 2016)

Solid Jonin level.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> The second databook writes that she is about as skilled at genjutsu as Itachi is​​



Link?


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## Trojan (Apr 13, 2016)

> The peaceful Kunoichi who combines wit and beauty, leads astray with her Genjutsu
> The Kunoichi has a firm aloofness...and is referred to as 'image', Kakashi's banter causes her cheeks to blush, making her
> unexpectedly except her usual purity. She excels in genjutsu, catching Itachi with it, a game between their equal genjutsu
> skills developed.




I guess that what he is referring to...


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## Itachі (Apr 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I guess that what he is referring to...



Thanks.

though what the fuck is this



> Kakashi's banter causes her cheeks to blush, making her
> unexpectedly except her usual purity


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## Bonly (Apr 13, 2016)

I'd rank her as solid Jounin, she has 4 or higher in all of her DB stats bar strength and stamina(2+2.5) so she's nicely skilled in almost all area's though with lack of hype of feats it's hard to say but I got her a bit lower then Asuma


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The second databook writes that she is about as skilled at genjutsu as Itachi is, and the third databook writes that she can use her crimson eyes to get the truth out of her enemies instantly, and "lure them to a place far beyond genjutsu", suggesting that she possesses some powerful illusions.
> 
> She's fast enough to break herself out of Itachi's genjutsu, and then immediately dodge and block his attacks in quick succession. She has a 4 in speed and taijutsu according to the DB.
> 
> ...



Nice thread . Happy am seein this . I would put her above anko and shizune however below part 1 Kakashi 

Furthermore her way of fighting straight up useless against neji for example . Will put her at war arc rookie level to be accurate , she was a new entry jounin in part 1


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Apr 13, 2016)

Strong enough to take Asuma's %&^$.


No but seriously a tier below Kakashi, and Gai.


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

I honestly can't see Kurenai defeating Zabuza, so she's probably a bit weaker than Asuma and Zabuza, but still strong in comparison to your average Jounin. All of the information we know about her was addressed in the OP, and it's not a lot to go on, unfortunately.

 I do think that she's stronger than all of the Rookies, though (minus a few standouts like Neji and Choji).


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> I honestly can't see Kurenai defeating Zabuza, so she's probably a bit weaker than Asuma and Zabuza, but still strong in comparison to your average Jounin. All of the information we know about her was addressed in the OP, and it's not a lot to go on, unfortunately.
> 
> I do think that she's stronger than all of the Rookies, though (minus a few standouts like Neji and Choji).



She seems like she is more of a suppot ninja for team based missions not a strong solo fighter. She is definitely no itachi with genjutsu  but itachi is the best ever so she is no slouch.


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## Dr. White (Apr 13, 2016)

A bit better than your average Jonin given her specialty, but not quite Elite Jonin level (asuma is bottom barrel Elite Jounin level). Her real danger comes when she is paired with a teammate like her lover. Without plot Asuma should have cut off Kisame's head once he thought his legs sunk into the concrete. That just goes to show how deadly they can be together. 

Her main flaw is a lack of supplementary jutsu to finish the job. Her jutsu's are great for deception and binding, but she still has to get in close with a kunai to finish the job. So extra durable people, people versed in genjutsu, people with massive AOE, and regen counter her quite well. 

Now if she had that filler genjutsu that could turn death into reality


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## Mithos (Apr 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> I honestly can't see Kurenai defeating Zabuza, so she's probably a bit weaker than Asuma and Zabuza, but still strong in comparison to your average Jounin. All of the information we know about her was addressed in the OP, and it's not a lot to go on, unfortunately.
> 
> I do think that she's stronger than all of the Rookies, though (minus a few standouts like Neji and Choji).



You think Neji is stronger than her? Based on what, though? Neji wasn't too impressive, either.

Chouji may be "stronger" than her, but I could see her beating him. I don't think he has chakra control or means to defend against her illusions. 

And as for Zabuza, I see that going either way. Zabuza was distracted and fooled by one of Kakashi's illusions, and Kurenai is much better in that area. However, Kurenai would have a lot of trouble against _Silent Killing_. It depends if Kurenai catches him in a genjutsu or if she uses her vanishing illusion before Zabuza hides in thick mist.


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## Saru (Apr 13, 2016)

Mithos said:


> You think Neji is stronger than her? Based on what, though? Neji wasn't too impressive, either.




Overall, yes, I think that Neji is probably stronger than Kurenai. He has comparable feats and has better combat and support abilities overall with the Byakugan and the Gentle FIst IMO. I can't see Kurenai defeating Neji in a one-on-one matchup either. She's severely lacking in feats, and her portrayal is not sufficient for me to give her the benefit of the doubt against someone with feats like repelling the Juubi's fist (the same Juubi that flicked Killer B's Bijuudama away like a fly). The gap between the two of them shouldn't be that large, though.



> Chouji may be "stronger" than her, but I could see her beating him. I don't think he has chakra control or means to defend against her illusions.




Butterfly Mode itself is an application of chakra control. I don't have any reason to assume that Kurenai's genjutsu is something that Kage-level ninja or characters with a high level of chakra control can't break out of. Choji would fall into the latter group.



> And as for Zabuza, I see that going either way. Zabuza was distracted and fooled by one of Kakashi's illusions, and Kurenai is much better in that area. However, Kurenai would have a lot of trouble against _Silent Killing_. It depends if Kurenai catches him in a genjutsu or if she uses her vanishing illusion before Zabuza hides in thick mist.




I suppose. Like I said, there's not really a lot to go on, so there's not a lot of discussion to be had about her capabilities. She's probably the most lacking of any named Jounin in the series in terms of feats. She has less feats and/or hype than Anko, any of the rookies, the Kage bodyguards, and has a vague Databook statement about her genjutsu prowess being comparable to Itachi (which is a relative statement). She also had one of the lower Databook scores and, unlike her peers, she didn't get any stronger over the timeskip; she remained stagnant.

Kurenai is also a genjutsu specialist, which makes considering how her opponents (not Kurenai herself, but her opponents) would do in a battle against her. Do they break out of her illusion before she kills them? Or does Kurenai win because her genjutsu is "Itachi-level." Can Kurenai handle any Elite (or even lower) Jounin in CQC? How does she deal with speedy characters? How does she get the opportunity to use the one and only genjutsu that we've seen from her when that genjutsu took time to cast? There are a lot of questions surrounding battles involving Kurenai.​


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## Drake (Apr 13, 2016)

Based on what little information we have on her, I would say she's pretty powerful, especially against characters that don't have a strong resistance to genjutsu. I actually think she can beat Asuma, considering that Asuma's genjutsu ranking is only a 3.5. Kurenai can probably trap him long enough to strike the finishing blow.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 13, 2016)

Probably stronger than two of the Sound Four, lol.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 13, 2016)

Well, it says she's the best genjutsu user in Konoha, and is thus one of the best in the world. She was also next to Asuma, Kakashi, and Gai, so it can be expected that she's in the 'legendary Jonin' category, albeit the newest.

Her other skills are more 'meh' though. Itachi did blitz behind her pretty easily, but he did that to Killer Bee too, so that can't really be held against her much. Itachi also has amazing genjutsu defense for her.


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## Mithos (Apr 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Overall, yes, I think that Neji is probably stronger than Kurenai. He has comparable feats and has better combat and support abilities overall with the Byakugan and the Gentle FIst IMO. I can't see Kurenai defeating Neji in a one-on-one matchup either. She's severely lacking in feats, and her portrayal is not sufficient for me to give her the benefit of the doubt against someone with feats like repelling the Juubi's fist (the same Juubi that flicked Killer B's Bijuudama away like a fly). The gap between the two of them shouldn't be that large, though.​




I'm probably in the minority here, but I didn't really find repelling the Juubi's fist to that impressive. All he and Hiashi did was slightly push its fist back momentarily. I also think Hiashi is wanked to all hell because of that feat. 

I agree she's lacking in feats, but she was part of the Jounin teachers group, and Neji never seemed like he reached any of them. I wouldn't put Neji above Asuma, either.  



Saru said:


> Butterfly Mode itself is an application of chakra control. I don't have any reason to assume that Kurenai's genjutsu is something that Kage-level ninja or characters with a high level of chakra control can't break out of. Choji would fall into the latter group.



I don't remember Butterfly Mode being something that takes expert chakra control, but I could be wrong. Do you know where this was stated or implied? Chouji also has low genjutsu knowledge and relatively low intelligence, so dealing with illusions might be tough for him. I don't know, Chouji never screamed chakra control expert to me, and Kurenai is the best genjutsu user in the leaf. 




Saru said:


> I suppose. Like I said, there's not really a lot to go on, so there's not a lot of discussion to be had about her capabilities. She's probably the most lacking of any named Jounin in the series in terms of feats. She has less feats and/or hype than Anko, any of the rookies, the Kage bodyguards, and has a vague Databook statement about her genjutsu prowess being comparable to Itachi (which is a relative statement). She also had one of the lower Databook scores and, unlike her peers, she didn't get any stronger over the timeskip; she remained stagnant.



Well it's hard to know if she got stronger over the time-skip because we never saw her fight again, and her genjutsu stat was already maxed out, so we can't tell if she improved in that area. 

I agree that she's the most lacking in regards to feats. 



Saru said:


> Kurenai is also a genjutsu specialist, which makes considering how her opponents (not Kurenai herself, but her opponents) would do in a battle against her. Do they break out of her illusion before she kills them? Or does Kurenai win because her genjutsu is "Itachi-level." Can Kurenai handle any Elite (or even lower) Jounin in CQC? How does she deal with speedy characters? How does she get the opportunity to use the one and only genjutsu that we've seen from her when that genjutsu took time to cast? There are a lot of questions surrounding battles involving Kurenai.



It's unfortunate that we'll probably never know the answers to most of those questions. She does have a 4 in taijutsu and a 4 in speed, though, so she should be able to hold her own defensively. 

I imagine she has a lot more genjutsu, but I couldn't guess how she might use them or what their effects might be. 



Sadgoob said:


> Well, it says she's the best genjutsu user in Konoha, and is thus one of the best in the world. She was also next to Asuma, Kakashi, and Gai, so it can be expected that she's in the 'legendary Jonin' category, albeit the newest.
> 
> Her other skills are more 'meh' though. *Itachi did blitz behind her pretty easily*, but he did that to Killer Bee too, so that can't really be held against her much. Itachi also has amazing genjutsu defense for her.



Never happened. He got behind her after he had _kicked her and sent her flying through the air_, so that's not really a blitz. 

She did manage to dodge Itachi's kunai slash at close range with little warning, and she was able to block his kick immediately after.

To be honest, she's more well-rounded than Gai is. Her only weak areas are physical strength and stamina, which I don't think is that bad because genjutsu - outside of MS - never really seemed that chakra intensive, and she doesn't need a lot of physical power as a genjutsu specialist.


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Mithos said:


> I'm probably in the minority here, but I didn't really find repelling the Juubi's fist to that impressive. All he and Hiashi did was slightly push its fist back momentarily. I also think Hiashi is wanked to all hell because of that feat.
> 
> I agree she's lacking in feats, but she was part of the Jounin teachers group, and Neji never seemed like he reached any of them. I wouldn't put Neji above Asuma, either.




Well, I'm not sure what wank has to do with this, but okay. 

I wouldn't place Neji above Asuma either.



> I don't remember Butterfly Mode being something that takes expert chakra control, but I could be wrong. Do you know where this was stated or implied? Chouji also has low genjutsu knowledge and relatively low intelligence, so dealing with illusions might be tough for him. I don't know, Chouji never screamed chakra control expert to me, and Kurenai is the best genjutsu user in the leaf.




Entering the state of Butterfly Mode itself doesn't seem to require a high level of chakra control. However, Choji's chakra manifests itself as butterfly wings in Butterfly Mode, which would likely require a high level of chakra control to sustain. His Butterfly Bomb Techniques is another application of chakra control through which Choji concentrates the chakra surrounding his body into one area, not unlike Oukashou. I don't really see what intelligence has to do with breaking out of Kurenai's genjutsu. It's not exactly subtle, and Genjutsu: Kai was never stated to require a high level of intelligence to execute. 



> Well it's hard to know if she got stronger over the time-skip because we never saw her fight again, and her genjutsu stat was already maxed out, so we can't tell if she improved in that area.
> 
> I agree that she's the most lacking in regards to feats.




I mean, she was pregnant... It's not like we can really consider any improvement in her skills over the timeskip in the first place.



> It's unfortunate that we'll probably never know the answers to most of those questions. She does have a 4 in taijutsu and a 4 in speed, though, so she should be able to hold her own defensively.




That's not really saying a lot, though. There are multiple characters who can force her to fight defensively due to their superior CQC skill and physical attributes.

Kiba, Lee, Choji, Neji, Asuma... A lot of them have what it takes to defeat Kurenai, and that's not to mention the more elite Jounin like Chiyo, Darui, Kakashi, etc. I'm not saying that she's not strong, but she definitely wasn't intended to be on the same level as Konoha Jounin peers IMO. Perhaps if she had showed a lot of improvement over the timeskip (like her peers did), my perception of her strength would be a bit different. Her ninjutsu stat increased by 0.5. Again, that's not really saying a lot•[/QUOTE]​


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## Mithos (Apr 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> I wouldn't place Neji above Asuma either.​




Personally, I view Kurenai as around the same level as Asuma, so I don't see Neji being superior to her but inferior to him. 



Saru said:


> Entering the state of Butterfly Mode itself doesn't seem to require a high level of chakra control. However, Choji's chakra manifests itself as butterfly wings in Butterfly Mode, which would likely require a high level of chakra control to sustain. His Butterfly Bomb Techniques is another application of chakra control through which Choji concentrates the chakra surrounding his body into one area, not unlike Oukashou. I don't really see what intelligence has to do with breaking out of Kurenai's genjutsu. It's not exactly subtle, and Genjutsu: Kai was never stated to require a high level of intelligence to execute.



Intelligence and knowledge of how genjutsu works definitely help in recognizing genjutsu. Yes, the one offensive illusion she used wasn't subtle, but as a genjutsu specialist she must have a wild variety, including subtle, difficult-to-detect ones. 

As for the chakra control, fair enough. However, I think Okasho requires higher chakra control. For one, Sakura's chakra control has been emphasized numerous times throughout the manga, both with her CES and medical ninjutsu. Chouji, on the other hand, has never really received that, and I don't believe that Butterfly Mode requires better chakra control than most Jounin level ninjutsu.  



Saru said:


> I mean, she was pregnant... It's not like we can really consider any improvement in her skills over the timeskip in the first place.



The time-skip was 2 years. Pregnancy only lasts 9 months. I'm not saying she must have improved, but I don't think we really have any way to gauge whether or not she did. 




Saru said:


> That's not really saying a lot, though. There are multiple characters who can force her to fight defensively due to their superior CQC skill and physical attributes.
> 
> Kiba, Lee, Choji, Neji, Asuma... A lot of them have what it takes to defeat Kurenai, and that's not to mention the more elite Jounin like Chiyo, Darui, Kakashi, etc. I'm not saying that she's not strong, but she definitely wasn't intended to be on the same level as Konoha Jounin peers IMO. Perhaps if she had showed a lot of improvement over the timeskip (like her peers did), my perception of her strength would be a bit different. Her ninjutsu stat increased by 0.5. Again, that's not really saying a lot•



They only have the means to defeat her if she allows them to stay within CQC range. The problem for most of them is that she can quickly vanish with an illusion, then hide and cast another one. I think her taijutsu skills and speed would be good enough to not get instantly overwhelmed and defeated, and allow her to escape and retreat to cast illusions. I don't think Lee or Kiba have the chakra control skills to break out of her level of illusions; I don't think Chouji does either, but we've already discussed that; Neji may be able to defend himself from her illusions because his style requires precise chakra control, but I can see her fooling him quite a bit too; and while I don't think she necessarily beats Asuma, her illusions pose quite a threat to him and ninja of his level,  in my opinion.

In a team setting, she may be more useful than Asuma or Neji because she'll definitely have time to cast her illusions, whether they be to trap the opponent and create openings for her teammates or more subtle ones to confuse them.​


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Personally, I view Kurenai as around the same level as Asuma, so I don't see Neji being superior to her but inferior to him.




Fair enough.



> Intelligence and knowledge of how genjutsu works definitely help in recognizing genjutsu. Yes, the one offensive illusion she used wasn't subtle, but as a genjutsu specialist she must have a wild variety, including subtle, difficult-to-detect ones.




Mmm, I don't know about that. Sounds like just giving Kurenai feats she doesn't have.



> As for the chakra control, fair enough. However, I think Okasho requires higher chakra control. For one, Sakura's chakra control has been emphasized numerous times throughout the manga, both with her CES and medical ninjutsu. Chouji, on the other hand, has never really received that, and I don't believe that Butterfly Mode requires better chakra control than most Jounin level ninjutsu.




Right, I'm not trying to suggest that Choji is anywhere near Sakura and Tsunade's level of chakra control, I'm just making a simple observation about the way Choji's chakra-based attacks in Butterfly Mode function. I can also see most elite Jounin pressuring Kurenai to prevent her from using her genjutsu in the first place, Choji included due to his speed and size in Butterfly Mode.




> The time-skip was 2 years. Pregnancy only lasts 9 months. I'm not saying she must have improved, but I don't think we really have any way to gauge whether or not she did.




Well, we have the Databook. The lack of improvement there combined with the fact that Kurenai was pregnant for a significant portion of the timeskip don't do her any favors. But the lack of evidence is my point. We don't have enough information to say that she got any better worse, so there's no way for us to make an estimation about how much stronger she got if she even got stronger at all. And unfortunately, because her genjutsu stat was maxed out, there's literally no measurable basis for improvement in that area.




> They only have the means to defeat her if she allows them to stay within CQC range. The problem for most of them is that she can quickly vanish with an illusion, then hide and cast another one. I think her taijutsu skills and speed would be good enough to not get instantly overwhelmed and defeated, and allow her to escape and retreat to cast illusions. I don't think Lee or Kiba have the chakra control skills to break out of her level of illusions; I don't think Chouji does either, but we've already discussed that; Neji may be able to defend himself from her illusions because his style requires precise chakra control, but I can see her fooling him quite a bit too; and while I don't think she necessarily beats Asuma, her illusions pose quite a threat to him and ninja of his level,  in my opinion.




I wouldn't call Kurenai's genjutsu that quick in comparison to some of these young speedsters. Kurenai chose to take cover behind Asuma before slipping away, so I have some doubts in her ability to vanish from the faster K11 before they can reach her. I can definitely see Kiba, Neji, and Lee attacking Kurenai before she can do that due to their superior speed and CQC skills (in both the manga and the Databook). Neji is a sensor, so he has an advantage over the other two when it comes to detecting and breaking out of genjutsu. Kiba and Akamaru can simply sniff Kurenai out, genjutsu or no. If Lee opens the First Gate, his win against Kurenai is practically guaranteed IMO. So, overall, I think Kurenai has worse odds against the faster or stronger members of the K11. They've grown up now; all of this have War experience under their belts.



> In a team setting, she may be more useful than Asuma or Neji because she'll definitely have time to cast her illusions, whether they be to trap the opponent and create openings for her teammates or more subtle ones to confuse them.




Neji's Byakugan *>>* Kurenai's genjutsu overall in any kind of team setting IMO. I do see how Kurenai can be more useful, but Neji can also do a fine job of creating openings by using Hakke Kuushou and simply engaging the opponent, and Neji's ability to track opponents with his insightful eye far outclasses Kurenai's ability to do the same. Asuma is inferior to Neji in this regard as well, but he can easily create distractions and even smokescreens with his Katon, and he a bit faster than either Neji or Kurenai feat-wise, so that makes him a pretty great partner at all ranges (unlike Kurenai, who cannot engage in CQC with any of the opponents mentioned above).​


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## Mithos (Apr 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Mmm, I don't know about that. Sounds like just giving Kurenai feats she doesn't have.​




She has a 5 in genjutsu and has skill equal to Itachi. I cannot picture her not having a variety of genjutsu. 



Saru said:


> Right, I'm not trying to suggest that Choji is anywhere near Sakura and Tsunade's level of chakra control, I'm just making a simple observation about the way Choji's chakra-based attacks in Butterfly Mode function. *I can also see most elite Jounin pressuring Kurenai to prevent her from using her genjutsu in the first place*, Choji included due to his speed and size in Butterfly Mode.



I would agree, but that depends on the starting conditions. On missions, confrontations and battles don't usually start one on one, face-to-face at 5m apart. 



Saru said:


> Well, we have the Databook. The lack of improvement there combined with the fact that Kurenai was pregnant for a significant portion of the timeskip don't do her any favors. But the lack of evidence is my point. We don't have enough information to say that she got any better worse, so there's no way for us to make an estimation about how much stronger she got if she even got stronger at all. And unfortunately, because her genjutsu stat was maxed out, there's literally no measurable basis for improvement in that area.



I think we're mostly in agreement on this: there's no way to determine whether or not she got more powerful or stayed the same. 



> I wouldn't call Kurenai's genjutsu that quick in comparison to some of these young speedsters. Kurenai chose to take cover behind Asuma before slipping away, so I have some doubts in her ability to vanish from the faster K11 before they can reach her. I can definitely see Kiba, Neji, and Lee attacking Kurenai before she can do that due to their superior speed and CQC skills (in both the manga and the Databook). Neji is a sensor, so he has an advantage over the other two when it comes to detecting and breaking out of genjutsu. Kiba and Akamaru can simply sniff Kurenai out, genjutsu or no. If Lee opens the First Gate, his win against Kurenai is practically guaranteed IMO. So, overall, I think Kurenai has worse odds against the faster or stronger members of the K11. They've grown up now; all of this have War experience under their belts.



All she has to do is form a single hand-seal, and then she vanishes. In _most_ circumstances, I can't see Lee, Neji, or Chouji (he doesn't start in BM) managing to severely injure her before she can get enough space to cast it. 

She isn't a Jounin master for nothing, and her stats and short skirmish with Itachi back that up.

Wait...why do you think Lee wins with the first gate? And honestly, I think genjutsu is a good counter to Lee's fighting style; the speed of the Gates doesn't mean anything if he cannot locate his opponent thanks to her vanishing illusion and her manipulating the appearance of the surroundings. His high speed assaults also won't work if he gets bound.



> Neji's Byakugan *>>* Kurenai's genjutsu overall in any kind of team setting IMO. I do see how Kurenai can be more useful, but Neji can also do a fine job of creating openings by using Hakke Kuushou and simply engaging the opponent, and Neji's ability to track opponents with his insightful eye far outclasses Kurenai's ability to do the same. Asuma is inferior to Neji in this regard as well, but he can easily create distractions and even smokescreens with his Katon, and he a bit faster than either Neji or Kurenai feat-wise, so that makes him a pretty great partner at all ranges (unlike Kurenai, who cannot engage in CQC with any of the opponents mentioned above).



I don't think Hakke Kushou is nearly as effective at supporting teammates - in most battles - as powerful binding genjutsu, or genjutsu to confuse the opponent (which I'm assuming she does have, since Sasuke was able to do something similar to Danzou and he is less skilled in genjutsu than she is).

I suppose it would depend on the situation of the mission whether the Byakugan is more useful. 

I wouldn't say she cannot _engage_ any of them in CQC; she certainly is at a disadvantage and would prioritize getting distance, but it's not as if she can't do anything. We don't really have feats for her, but a 4 in taijutsu is not bad at all. Not to mention, she was able to defend herself against even Itachi's speed at the last minute.


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## bhargab (Apr 14, 2016)

just a little below asuma


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## Saru (Apr 14, 2016)

Mithos said:


> She has a 5 in genjutsu and has skill equal to Itachi. I cannot picture her not having a variety of genjutsu.




Variety and subtlety aren't the same thing, though.




> I would agree, but that depends on the starting conditions. On missions, confrontations and battles don't usually start one on one, face-to-face at 5m apart.




This is true.



> I think we're mostly in agreement on this: there's no way to determine whether or not she got more powerful or stayed the same.




Yeah, unfortunately.




> All she has to do is form a single hand-seal, and then she vanishes. In _most_ circumstances, I can't see Lee, Neji, or Chouji (he doesn't start in BM) managing to severely injure her before she can get enough space to cast it.
> 
> She isn't a Jounin master for nothing, and her stats and short skirmish with Itachi back that up.




Like you mentioned above, the conditions can change things. If any of the rookies are as close to Kurenai as Kisame was, I don't see Kurenai being able to use genjutsu in time.



> Wait...why do you think Lee wins with the first gate? And honestly, I think genjutsu is a good counter to Lee's fighting style; the speed of the Gates doesn't mean anything if he cannot locate his opponent thanks to her vanishing illusion and her manipulating the appearance of the surroundings. His high speed assaults also won't work if he gets bound.




I think genjutsu is a good counter to Lee's style as well. 

However, with the First Gate, Lee's speed increases, and he's already faster than Kurenai to begin with, so Lee opening any of the Gates could be problematic.



> don't think Hakke Kushou is nearly as effective at supporting teammates - in most battles - as powerful binding genjutsu, or genjutsu to confuse the opponent (which I'm assuming she does have, since Sasuke was able to do something similar to Danzou and he is less skilled in genjutsu than she is).




I wouldn't say that Kurenai is more skilled than Sasuke in genjutsu. I don't see her breaking Itachi's Tsukuyomi, subjugating Manda, or knocking C (who is a sensor, a medical ninja, and a genjutsu user all in one) out with genjutsu. Also, Neji is not restricted to fighting from a distance like Kurenai; he can fight at mid and close ranges. Another thing to point out is that, in a team setting, there are usually teams of people working together. Neji can handle himself at all ranges just fine, but Kurenai is not quite as proficient at doing so, particularly at close ranges. If her opponent is quick on their feet and predisposed to CQC, she may not be able to support her teammates as well as Neji would be able to.



> I suppose it would depend on the situation of the mission whether the Byakugan is more useful.




That's fair I, guess. Being a sensor is obviously a major benefit, though.


Hidden Mist
Doton
C4
chakra buildup
genjutsu
There are a lot of situations where sensory abilities can be useful for defensive or offensive purposes. Kurenai has none of that going for her. Neji can also block almost any attack with Kaiten. I would consider that a pretty outstanding defensive support ability--one which Kurenai doesn't have. As skillful as Kurenai is, her genjutsu can still be broken. Kaiten can't be broken in the same way.



> I wouldn't say she cannot _engage_ any of them in CQC; she certainly is at a disadvantage and would prioritize getting distance, but it's not as if she can't do anything. We don't really have feats for her, but a 4 in taijutsu is not bad at all. Not to mention, she was able to defend herself against even Itachi's speed at the last minute.




I would definitely say that. Itachi wasn't going for the kill in that fight, so that already makes her feat there look rather dubious, but that's a cruel thing to point out, so I won't really hold that factor  against her. Even so, being able to block doesn't amount to much against the opponents I mentioned. Kurenai simply cannot engage Neji, Lee, or Kiba in CQC. They're all faster than her and significantly more skilled. If she engages Neji in CQC, she's probably not going to be able to get away from him given what she's shown. The same can be said for Lee, who is even faster than Neji and can increase his speed several times with Hachimon. Kiba can literally tear through Kurenai, and vanishing wouldn't really help with that since Kiba can track her scent.

Overall, I do have a higher opinion of Kurenai than I did previously from this back-and-forth, though.​


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## Tarot (Apr 14, 2016)

A solid mid-tier jonin


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## Mercurial (Apr 14, 2016)

Decent jonin level, nothing more, nothing less.


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## Mithos (Apr 15, 2016)

Saru said:


> Variety and subtlety aren't the same thing, though


.

Kotetsu and Izumo were capable of casting subtle illusions, and so was Team Oboro in the Forest of Death. Logically, Kurenai should be able to do as well. 



Saru said:


> Like you mentioned above, the conditions can change things. If any of the rookies are as close to Kurenai as Kisame was, I don't see Kurenai being able to use genjutsu in time.



I re-read the fight, and everyone started much closer to each other than I remembered. I will so, though, that Kurenai did not appear uncomfortable standing that close to the enemy, which, to me, implies that she's not as adverse to CQC or short starting distances as we may have thought. If she absolutely needed to avoid being near the opponent at all costs, I doubt she would have approached that close to them when she simply could have hung back from the beginning. 




Saru said:


> I think genjutsu is a good counter to Lee's style as well.
> 
> However, with the First Gate, Lee's speed increases, and he's already faster than Kurenai to begin with, so Lee opening any of the Gates could be problematic.



I wonder if Kurenai can use the same genjutsu C used on Taka? Or a similar one? 



Saru said:


> I wouldn't say that Kurenai is more skilled than Sasuke in genjutsu. I don't see her breaking Itachi's Tsukuyomi, subjugating Manda, or knocking C (who is a sensor, a medical ninja, and a genjutsu user all in one) out with genjutsu. Also, Neji is not restricted to fighting from a distance like Kurenai; he can fight at mid and close ranges. Another thing to point out is that, in a team setting, there are usually teams of people working together. Neji can handle himself at all ranges just fine, but Kurenai is not quite as proficient at doing so, particularly at close ranges. If her opponent is quick on their feet and predisposed to CQC, she may not be able to support her teammates as well as Neji would be able to.



Well Kurenai is equal to Itachi in genjutsu skill, and Itachi is more skilled than Sasuke. Sharingan ocular genjutsu will always triumph because it's OP, but outside of direct eye contact, I don't think Sasuke can create better illusions than her. 




Saru said:


> That's fair I, guess. Being a sensor is obviously a major benefit, though.
> 
> 
> Hidden Mist
> ...



Fair enough. Though Kaiten is far from infallible. Even a member of the Sound 4 found a way to exploit its opening. 



Saru said:


> I would definitely say that. Itachi wasn't going for the kill in that fight, so that already makes her feat there look rather dubious, but that's a cruel thing to point out, so I won't really hold that factor  against her. Even so, being able to block doesn't amount to much against the opponents I mentioned. Kurenai simply cannot engage Neji, Lee, or Kiba in CQC. They're all faster than her and significantly more skilled. If she engages Neji in CQC, she's probably not going to be able to get away from him given what she's shown. The same can be said for Lee, who is even faster than Neji and can increase his speed several times with Hachimon. Kiba can literally tear through Kurenai, and vanishing wouldn't really help with that since Kiba can track her scent.



Well he tried to slash her throat, then he tried to blow her up with an exploding clone. And after that, he ordered Kisame to get rid of them. He wasn't going all out - he wasn't using MS - but I don't think he was pulling his punches that much. 

I don't think Kiba can locate and catch her before she catches him in some sort of illusion. 



Saru said:


> Overall, I do have a higher opinion of Kurenai than I did previously from this back-and-forth, though.



Interestingly, I do too, since I had to over-analyze her feats. 

I was thinking about something, and I want to know your opinion. In the DB it says _Tree Bind Death_ can also be used for interrogation. People always mention that people can escape it _just_ by biting their lip, but if that is the case, then the jutsu would not be useful for interrogation at all. They could simply bite their lip or tongue and escape. Also, when Kurenai breaks out of it, in the first panel it looks like she's concentrating really hard before she bites her lip. Maybe she was trying to overpower Itachi's hold on her chakra, and the pain alone didn't end the illusion but allowed her to disrupt his hold enough for her take back control? 


Here is the DB entry: 

GENJUTSU; Magen: Jubaku Satsu (Genjutsu; Demonic Illusion: Woodbound Assassination*)
User: Yuuhi Kurenai
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: B

Main text

One of the genjutsu that have been passed along since ancient times in Konoha. One is completely robbed of their mobility as they see the mirage of a tree coiling itself around them! *Given that the subject remains conscious, this jutsu proves extremely efficient for information-gathering*.

Caption

-Ensnared and captured. Such is the nefarious influence of the dire tree!!

Picture comments

-The illusory tree entwines itself around the subject!!

-Attacking once the target is immobile, stripping away their life is but another way in which Jubaku Satsu may be used.
*"Jubaku" means "spell" or "curse" when written with the proper Kanji. I tried to reflect that with "woodbound", crafted after the word "spellbound​


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## Saru (Apr 15, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Kotetsu and Izumo were capable of casting subtle illusions, and so was Team Oboro in the Forest of Death. Logically, Kurenai should be able to do as well.




Fair enough.



> I re-read the fight, and everyone started much closer to each other than I remembered. I will so, though, that Kurenai did not appear uncomfortable standing that close to the enemy, which, to me, implies that she's not as adverse to CQC or short starting distances as we may have thought. If she absolutely needed to avoid being near the opponent at all costs, I doubt she would have approached that close to them when she simply could have hung back from the beginning.




Asuma was standing next to her, though. Asuma's CQC proficiency would have logically made Kurenai feel more secure about her position, and she ducked behind Asuma when Kisame tried to attack.




> I wonder if Kurenai can use the same genjutsu C used on Taka? Or a similar one?




Kurenai probably can't use the same one since I believe it was implied to be something unique to Kumogakure (or at the least Raiton users) during the War Arc, but perhaps she could use something similar. The thing is, we shouldn't assume that Itachi is capable of using such genjutsu such as that despite the fact that he's arguably the best genjutsu user in the series (and is skilled even outside of Sharingan Genjutsu), so I don't see why doing so for Kurenai would make sense.



> Well Kurenai is equal to Itachi in genjutsu skill, and Itachi is more skilled than Sasuke. Sharingan ocular genjutsu will always triumph because it's OP, but outside of direct eye contact, I don't think Sasuke can create better illusions than her.




I agree.




> Fair enough. Though Kaiten is far from infallible. Even a member of the Sound 4 found a way to exploit its opening.




Neji undoubtedly grew stronger over the timeskip, though so his Kaiten has probably gotten better. Kidomaru was also in the perfect situation to exploit Neji's abilities since Neji's Byakugan range was so limited at that point. I don't think there are any characters in the series who can replicate Kidomaru's feat against Neji unless they're outright stronger than him.

There are very few attacks that I think Kaiten would fail to repel. Fuuton: Rasenshuriken is the only one that comes to mind due to the nature of that jutsu (high-velocity rotation).



> Well he tried to slash her throat, then he tried to blow her up with an exploding clone. And after that, he ordered Kisame to get rid of them. He wasn't going all out - he wasn't using MS - but I don't think he was pulling his punches that much.




Kakashi said that he was even better than he was showing, and there's nothing to suggest that Kakashi had knowledge of Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan at that point, which suggests that Itachi was capable of taking them out with his Base arsenal. Itachi is the same person who defeated a small army of Uchiha on his own (i.e. whoever Obito didn't kill), so that wouldn't surprise me.



> I don't think Kiba can locate and catch her before she catches him in some sort of illusion.




Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that Kiba and Akamaru should be able to sniff Kurenai out with their noses out regardless of the illusion before their eyes. There hasn't been a genjutsu that was shown to affect olfactory senses.




> Interestingly, I do too, since I had to over-analyze her feats.
> 
> I was thinking about something, and I want to know your opinion. In the DB it says _Tree Bind Death_ can also be used for interrogation. People always mention that people can escape it _just_ by biting their lip, but if that is the case, then the jutsu would not be useful for interrogation at all. They could simply bite their lip or tongue and escape. Also, when Kurenai breaks out of it, in the first panel it looks like she's concentrating really hard before she bites her lip. Maybe she was trying to overpower Itachi's hold on her chakra, and the pain alone didn't end the illusion but allowed her to disrupt his hold enough for her take back control?




That explanation makes sense. We've seen Orochimaru struggling to resist Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu somewhat, but Itachi wasn't actually using one of his Sharingan Genjutsu to restrain Kurenai; he was casting Kurenai's genjutsu back at at her. If that's the case, then it looks like Kurenai had to put in a bit of effort to break what would have essentially been her own genjutsu, which suggests that Tree Bind Death is extremely powerful (whether in the hands of Kurenai or in the hands of Itachi after genjutsu reversal).​


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## IzayaOrihara (Apr 15, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Orochimaru beats her
> 
> Mmm
> 
> *But she can give him a fight I guess*



You are joking right? Right?


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