# Actual High/Mid/Low Kage Test



## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

...Well Based on the Kages we've seen in action. But anyway simple premise for the thread, each character will square off against each Kage we've seen. Depending on the amount of Kages they can beat, they will be separated into High/Mid/Low mathematically. So here are the Kages:

1. Hashirama
2. Minato [Edo]
3. Tobirama [Edo]
4. Onoki
5. Mu
6. Gengetsu
7. Sandaime-Raikage 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]
9. Hiruzen [Edo]
10. Ei
11. Rasa
12. Gaara [War Arc]
13. Mei
14. Minato [Living]
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]

And here's the scale

High [High] Kage - Can Beat all 15
High [Mid] Kage - Can Beat 13 to 14
High [Low] Kage - Can Beat 11 to 12
Mid [High] Kage - Can Beat 10
Mid [Mid] Kage - Can Beat 8 to 9
Mid [Low] Kage - Can Beat 6 to 7
Low [High] Kage - Can Beat 5 
Low [Mid] Kage - Can Beat 3 to 4
Low [Low] Kage - Can beat 1 to 2

Location: VOTE
Starting Distance: Each Competitor starts on opposite statues
Mind-Set: IC, but to Kill
Knowledge: Manga

Competitors:

1. Nagato
2. Gai [6th and 7th Gate only]
3. Danzo [Koto Charged]
4. Killer-B
5. Kisame [W/ Bijuu Chakra]
6. SM-Jiraiya
7. Itachi
8. Sasori
9. Kakashi [War-Arc, but no double Sharingan]
10. Kakuzu
11. Deidara
12. Darui
13. Choji
14. Haishi
15. Chiyo
16. Kinkaku and Ginkaku
17. Konan

Please indicate which kages each competitor can defeat and which he/she looses to. So to give an example:


Chiyo:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Losses 
2. Minato [Edo] - Losses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Losses
4. Onoki - Losses
5. Mu - Losses
6. Gengetsu - Losses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Losses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Losses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Losses
10. Ei - Losses
11. Rasa - Losses
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Losses
13. Mei - 50/50
14. Minato [Living] - Losses 
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - 50/50

Low [Low] Kage - Can beat 1 to 2


----------



## GilgameshXFate (Jul 19, 2015)

*Nagato Uzumaki*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Edo Tobirama: Loses
Onoki: Wins
Muu: Win
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Wins
Ei the 4th: Wins
Byakugo Tsunade: wins
Edo Hiruzen: wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Minato living: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Conclusion: Beats 9. *Nagato is High (low) Kage*




*Maito Guy (I know I'm gonna get hate for this one)*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: loses
Tobirama: loses
Edo Minato: loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Byakugo Tsunade: Loses
Edo Hiruzen: Draw
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Could go either way
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: I'll give Gai the Win
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Conclusion: Gai beats 5*Gai is Low (High) Kage*




*Danzō Shimura *


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Wins
Minato: Wins
Tobirama: Wins
Alive Minato: Wins
Byakugo Tsunade: Wins
Hiruzen: Wins
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Wins
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Conclusion: He beats 14 with Koto *Danzo is High (Mid) Kage*




*Killer Bee*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Wins
Muu: Wins
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Wins
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Conclusion: Beats 11 *Bee is High (Low) Kage*




*Kisame Hoshigaki*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Minato: Loses
Living Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Byakugo Tsunade: Loses
Hiruzen: Wins
Muu: Loses
Onoki: If Samehada can absorb Jinton he can Win I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and says he wins.
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Results: Beats 7 *Kisame is Mid (Low) Kage*




*Sage Jiraiya*

*Spoiler*: __ 




Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Byakugo Tsunade: Equal
Hiruzen: Wins
Onoki: Wins
Muu: Wins
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Wins
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Result: Beats 10 *Sage Jiraiya is Mid (High) Kage*




*Itachi Uchiha*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Byakugo Tsunade: Wins
Hiruzen: Wins
Muu: Depends if Sharingan can see Muu, I don't think it can atleast not at the MS level, so Itachi Loses
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Wins
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Results: Beats 10 *Itachi is Mid (High) Kage*




*Akasuna No Sasori*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Byakugo Tsunade: Loses
Edo Hiruzen: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Results: Beats 4 *Sasori is Low (Mid) Kage*




*Kakashi Hatake*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Edo Hiruzen: Wins
Tsunade: Wins
Muu: Wins
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Wins
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Win
Results: Wins 10 *Kakashi is Mid ( High) Kage*




*Kakuzu*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Tsunade: Loses
Hiruzen: Draw
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Results: Beats 3 *Kakuzu is Low (Mid) Kage*




*Deidara*
*Spoiler*: __ 





Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Draws
Hiruzen: Draw
Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Draws
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Results: Beats 2 *Deidara is Low(Low) Kage*




*Darui*
*Spoiler*: __ 





Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Tsunade: Loses
Hiruzen: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Loses
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Loses
Result: Beats ZERO *Darui is not Kage Level*




*Chouji Akamichi*

*Spoiler*: __ 




Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Minato: Loses
Hiruzen: Loses
Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses]
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Loses
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Loses
Results: Beats ZERO *Chouji is not Kage Level*




*Hiashi Hyuga*
*Spoiler*: __ 





Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Tsunade: Loses
Hiruzen: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Loses
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Loses
Results: Beats ZERO *Hiashi is not Kage Level*




*Chiyo*
*Spoiler*: __ 





Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Tsunade: Loses
Hiruzen: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Results: Beats 2 *Chiyo is Low (Low) Kage*




*Kin-Gin Brothers*
*Spoiler*: __ 





Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Tsunade: Loses
Hiruzen: Draws
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Win
Ei the 3rd: Lose 
Ei the 4th: Win
Rasa: Win
Gaara: Lose
Mei: Win
Shukaku Gaara: Wins
Results: Beats 5 *Gin and Kin are Low (High) Kage*




*Konan*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Tsunade: Loses
Hiruzen: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Loses
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Loses
Results: Beats ZERO *Konan is not Kage Level Without Prep*


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 20, 2015)

How do we count draws and things like people using reaper seals? Double loss? 

Also Kisame w/Bijuu chakra is that w/or w/o Samehada?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 20, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> How do we count draws and things like people using reaper seals? Double loss?


I assume if someone can draw with someone, they likely can beat him/her a decent amount of times, but if literally it can only end in a draw it doesn't count.



Ryuzaki said:


> Also Kisame w/Bijuu chakra is that w/or w/o Samehada?


Yes


----------



## RBL (Jul 20, 2015)

*Maito Gai*
Hashirama: loses
Tobirama: win
Edo Minato: loses
Alive Minato: Draw
Byakugo Tsunade: Win
Edo Hiruzen: win
Muu: Win
Onoki: Win
Gengetsu: Win
Ei the 3rd: Win
Ei the 4th: Win
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*Gai is* High [Mid] Kage - Can Beat 13 to 14
High [Low] Kage - Can Beat 11 to 12


----------



## Rocky (Jul 20, 2015)

*Spoiler*: _First Ten_ 




*Spoiler*: _Nagato_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - U
4. Onoki - W
5. Mu - W
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - W
10. Ei - W
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - U
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 11
L: 2
U: 2

*Verdict:* High Kage (Mid/Low)





*Spoiler*: _Gai_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - W
5. Mu - U
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - W
10. Ei - U
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 7 
L: 6
U: 2

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Mid/Low)





*Spoiler*: _Danzo_ 





I don't see a counter to Koto Amatsukami on this list.

W: 15
L: 0
U: 0

*Verdict:* High Kage (High)





*Spoiler*: _B_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - U
4. Onoki - U
5. Mu - W
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - W
10. Ei - W
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - U
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 10
L: 2
U: 3

*Verdict:* High Kage (Mid/Low)





*Spoiler*: _Kisame_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - W
5. Mu - W
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - U
10. Ei - U
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 8
L: 5
U: 2

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (High/Mid)





*Spoiler*: _Sage Jiraiya_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - U
4. Onoki - U
5. Mu - W
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - U 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - W
10. Ei - U
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - U
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 8
L: 2
U: 5

*Verdict:* High Kage (Mid)/Mid Kage (Mid)





*Spoiler*: _Itachi_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - W
5. Mu - W
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - W
10. Ei - W
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - U
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 11
L: 3
U: 1

*Verdict:* High Kage (Low)





*Spoiler*: _Sasori_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - U
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - U
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 4
L: 9
U: 2

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Low)/ Low Kage (Mid)

*I don't think Sasori is this low. He just happens to match up horribly with most kage.





*Spoiler*: _Kakashi_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - W
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - U
7. Sandaime-Raikage - U 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - U
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - L

W: 3
L: 9
U: 3

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Low)/Low Kage (Mid)





*Spoiler*: _Kakuzu_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - U
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - U

W: 3
L: 10
U: 2

*Verdict:* Low Kage (High/Mid)








*Spoiler*: _Last Six_ 




*Spoiler*: _Deidara_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - U
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 6
L: 8
U: 1

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Low)





*Spoiler*: _Darui_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - L
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L
13. Mei - L
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - L

W: 0
L: 15
U: O

*Verdict:* Not Kage level





*Spoiler*: _Choji_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - L
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 3
L: 12
U: 0

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Mid)





*Spoiler*: _Hiashi_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - L
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L
13. Mei - U
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - L

W: 0
L: 14
U: 1

*Verdict:* Not Kage level





*Spoiler*: _Gold & Silver Brothers_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - U
4. Onoki - U
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - U
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - U
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 4
L: 7
U: 4

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Mid)/Low Kage (Mid)





*Spoiler*: _Konan_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - U
12. Gaara [War Arc] - U 
13. Mei - L
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - U

W: 0
L: 12
U: 3

*Verdict:* Not Kage level


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 20, 2015)

*Spoiler*: _1. Nagato_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Wins
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Wins
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

High-Mid Kage - Beats 13/15



*Spoiler*: _2. Gai (6th and 7th Gate only)_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Wins
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

High-Low Kage - Beats 12/15



*Spoiler*: _3. Danzo [Koto Charged]_ 



1. Hashirama - Wins
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

High-Low Kage - Beats 11/15



*Spoiler*: _4. Killer-B_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - 50/50 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

Mid-Mid Kage - Beats 8/15



*Spoiler*: _5a. Kisame w/Bijuu Chakra + Samehada_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Win
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

Mid-Mid Kage - Beats 8



*Spoiler*: _5b. Kisame w/Bijuu Chakra_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

Mid-Low Kage - Beats 6



*Spoiler*: _6. SM Jiraiya_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

High-Low Kage - Beats 11



*Spoiler*: _7. Itachi]_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

High-Low Kage - Beats 11



*Spoiler*: _8. Sasori_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - 50/50
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Loses
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses
13. Mei - Loses
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Loses

Low-Low Kage - Beats 1 to 2



*Spoiler*: _9. War Arc Kakashi_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

High-Low Kage - Beats 11



*Spoiler*: _10. Kakuzu_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - 50/50
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

Mid-Low Kage - Beats 6 to 7



*Spoiler*: _11. Deidara_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - 50/50
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

Mid-Mid/High Kage - Beats 9 to 10



*Spoiler*: _12. Darui_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - 50/50
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - 50/50
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses
13. Mei - Loses
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Loses

Not Kage Level - Beats 0 to 2



*Spoiler*: _13. Chouji_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - 50/50
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses
13. Mei - Loses
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Loses

Not Kage Level - Beats 0 to 2



*Spoiler*: _14. Haishi_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses
13. Mei - Loses
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Loses

Not Kage Level - Beats 0



*Spoiler*: _15. Chiyo_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - 50/50
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - 50/50
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses
13. Mei - Loses
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Loses

Not Kage Level - Beats 0 to 2



*Spoiler*: _16. Kinkaku & Ginkaku_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Loses
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

Low Mid Kage Level - Beats 4



*Spoiler*: _17. Konan_ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - 50/50
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

Low High Kage Level - Beats 5 to 6


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> ...Well Based on the Kages we've seen in action. But anyway simple premise for the thread, each character will square off against each Kage we've seen. Depending on the amount of Kages they can beat, they will be separated into High/Mid/Low mathematically. So here are the Kages:
> 
> 1. Hashirama
> 2. Minato [Edo]
> ...



wow this is a long thread. I will only consider killer bee. As he is my  fave

Killer bee Competes : 

Hashirama- looses
minato- looses
Tobirama- wins
hiruzen- wins
tsunade- wins
A- looses
onoki- wins
Mei- wins
gengetsu - wins
Minato [edo]- looses
sandaime raikage- wins
rasa- wins
gaara [war arc]- wins
gaara[part2]- wins
Muu- wins

So killer bee looses 4 matches out of 15. he is high[low] kage

btw chouji looses to all 15 of them.


----------



## Matty (Jul 20, 2015)

It's a good concept but people like Sasori who are clearly Mid Kage, maybe even high end mid kage, are gimped and by these statistics and are low kage by default.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> It's a good concept but people like Sasori who are clearly Mid Kage, maybe even high end mid kage, are gimped and by these statistics and are low kage by default.



well its a fair statistic. 15 kages 
its no ones fault sasori cant beat more than 5 of them

that shows sasori isnt mid kage level at all. 

the only thing i consider unfair is everyone starts at default with 1 loss since none can beat hashirama


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

@ryuzaki am baffled konan beats Muu. entirely utterly baffled 

feel free to explain that please

360 jinton GG


----------



## Matty (Jul 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> well its a fair statistic. 15 kages
> its no ones fault sasori cant beat more than 5 of them
> 
> that shows sasori isnt mid kage level at all.
> ...



I can make a list of Kage level opponents where Deidara can beat 10 out of 15? does that make him High Kage? It doesn't it's speculative and it's based off of matchups. Either way, any argument won't sway your opinion of what level anyone is. I'm just stating that, while it is a cool thread, I see some flaws where people who are probably stronger than they are, end up being ranked lower than they should be.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 20, 2015)

Why bother putting Edo people on this scale? Edo people will almost always win and if you  don't got sealing you are screwed.


----------



## Bonly (Jul 20, 2015)

I'm just gonna use Rocky's post format as I'm to lazy to type all of this myself and we all know this wouldn't be the first time I stole something from Rocky so yeah


*Spoiler*: _Nagato_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - W
4. Onoki - W
5. Mu - W
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - W
10. Ei - W
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - 50/50
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 12
L: 2
50/50: 1

*Verdict:* High Kage (Mid/Low) by these standards





*Spoiler*: _Gai_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - 50/50
5. Mu - 50/50
6. Gengetsu - 50/50
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - 50/50
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - 50/50
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - 50/50
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 2
L: 6
50/50: 6

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Low) to Mid Kage (Low) by these standards.





*Spoiler*: _Danzo_ 





1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - W
5. Mu - W
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - W
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - W
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 11
L: 4
50/50: 0

*Verdict:* High Kage (Low) by these standards





*Spoiler*: _B_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - 50/50
5. Mu - 50/50
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - W
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 8
L: 5
50/50: 2

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Mid) to Mid Kage (High) by these standards





*Spoiler*: _Kisame_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - W
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 7
L: 8
50/50: 0

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Low) by these standards.





*Spoiler*: _Sage Jiraiya_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - W
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - W
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 9
L: 6
50/50: 0

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Mid) by these standard





*Spoiler*: _Itachi_ 




1. Hashirama - W
2. Minato [Edo] - W
3. Tobirama [Edo] - W
4. Onoki - W
5. Mu - W
6. Gengetsu - W
7. Sandaime-Raikage - W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - W
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - W
10. Ei - W
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - W
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 15
L: 0
50/50: 0

*Verdict:* High Kage (High) 





*Spoiler*: _Sasori_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - 50/50 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - W 
13. Mei - L
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 3
L: 11
50/50: 1

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Mid) by these standards 






*Spoiler*: _Kakashi_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - 50/50
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L
13. Mei - 50/50
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - L

W: 0
L: 13
50/50: 2

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Low) by these standards





*Spoiler*: _Kakuzu_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L
13. Mei - 50/50
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - L

W: 1
L: 13
50/50: 1

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Low) by these standards 





*Spoiler*: _Deidara_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - W
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L 
13. Mei - 50/50
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - W

W: 2
L: 12
50/50: 1

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Mid) by these standards





*Spoiler*: _Darui_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - L
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L
13. Mei - L
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - L

W: 0
L: 15
50/50: O

*Verdict:* Not Kage level by these standards





*Spoiler*: _Choji_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - L
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L 
13. Mei - 50/50
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - L

W: 0
L: 14
50/50: 1

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Low) by these standards





*Spoiler*: _Hiashi_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - L
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L
13. Mei - W
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - L

W: 1
L: 14
50/50: 

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Low)





*Spoiler*: _Gold & Silver Brothers_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - 50/50
11. Rasa - L
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L 
13. Mei - 50/50
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - L

W: 0
L: 13
50/50: 2

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Low) by these standards





*Spoiler*: _Konan_ 




1. Hashirama - L
2. Minato [Edo] - L
3. Tobirama [Edo] - L
4. Onoki - L
5. Mu - L
6. Gengetsu - L
7. Sandaime-Raikage - L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - L
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - L
10. Ei - L
11. Rasa - L
12. Gaara [War Arc] - L 
13. Mei - L
14. Minato [Living] - L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - L

W: 0
L: 15
50/50: 0

*Verdict:* Not Kage level by these standards


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 20, 2015)

Itachi : 

1. Hashirama - loses
2. Minato [Edo] - loses 
3. Tobirama [Edo] - wins
4. Onoki - wins
5. Mu - wins
6. Gengetsu - wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins
10. Ei - wins
11. Rasa - wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]- wins
13. Mei - wins
14. Minato [Living] 50/50
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins

12 wins 1 can go either way loses 2

Itachi is High [low-mid] Kage.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I can make a list of Kage level opponents where Deidara can beat 10 out of 15? does that make him High Kage? It doesn't it's speculative and it's based off of matchups. Either way, any argument won't sway your opinion of what level anyone is. I'm just stating that, while it is a cool thread, I see some flaws where people who are probably stronger than they are, end up being ranked lower than they should be.



well they wont be kage level then. at least not within all ranks of kage level 
what turrin did is fair. he has an equal amount of low kage, mid kage and high kage level 

well turrin used kages specifically for this ranking. it cant be more fair, if he lists 15 shinobi who have held the title of kage and you can only beat 5 then you are low kage level by the very definition of the word


----------



## Deer Lord (Jul 20, 2015)

1. Nagato

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -wins
4. Onoki -wins
5. Mu- wins
6. Gengetsu- wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-wins
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-wins
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-wins
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-wins

So "*High [Mid] Kage *- Can Beat 13 to 14"
though I consider him bottom of top tier.



2. Gai [6th and 7th Gate only]

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -wins
5. Mu- wins
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-wins (60:40)
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-wins
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-wins

*Mid [Mid] Kage *- Can Beat 8 to 9




3. Danzo [Koto Charged]

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -wins
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei- loses
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-wins
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-wins

*Mid [Low] Kage* - Can Beat 6 to 7




4. Killer-B

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -wins
4. Onoki -wins
5. Mu- wins
6. Gengetsu- wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-wins
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-wins
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-wins
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-wins

*High [Mid] Kage *- Can Beat 13 to 14




5. Kisame [W/ Bijuu Chakra]

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-wins
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-wins
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-wins

*Mid [Mid] Kage *- Can Beat 8 to 9




6. SM-Jiraiya

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -50:50
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-50:50
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-wins
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-wins

*Mid [Mid] Kage *- Can Beat 8 to 9




7. Itachi

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -wins
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-wins (60:40)
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-wins
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-wins

*Mid [Mid] Kage *- Can Beat 8 to 9




8. Sasori

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- 50:50
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-loses
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-wins
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-wins

*Mid [Low] Kage *- Can Beat 6 to 7




9. Kakashi [War-Arc, but no double Sharingan]

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- may win
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-loses
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-loses
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-loses

*Low [Mid] Kage *- Can Beat 3 to 4




10. Kakuzu

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-loses
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-loses
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-wins

*Low [Mid] Kage *- Can Beat 3 to 4




11. Deidara

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- loses to katsuyo sama
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-loses
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-loses
13. Mei-loses
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- 50:50

*Low [Low] Kage* - Can beat 1 to 2




12. Darui

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- loses 
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- loses
10. Ei-loses
11. Rasa-loses
12. Gaara [War Arc]-loses
13. Mei-loses
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- loses

Not Kage Level.



13. Choji

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- loses 
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- loses
10. Ei-loses
11. Rasa-loses
12. Gaara [War Arc]-loses
13. Mei-loses
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- loses

Not Kage Level.




14. Haishi

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- loses 
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- loses
10. Ei-loses
11. Rasa-loses
12. Gaara [War Arc]-loses
13. Mei-loses
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- loses

Not Kage Level.




15. Chiyo

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- loses 
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- loses
10. Ei-loses
11. Rasa-loses
12. Gaara [War Arc]-loses
13. Mei-loses
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- loses

Not Kage Level.




16. Kinkaku and Ginkaku

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei-loses
11. Rasa-wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-loses
13. Mei-wins
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- wins

*Low [High] Kage* - Can Beat 5




17. Konan

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Hashirama- loses
2. Minato [Edo]- loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -loses
4. Onoki -loses
5. Mu- loses
6. Gengetsu- loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- loses 
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- loses
10. Ei-loses
11. Rasa-loses
12. Gaara [War Arc]-loses
13. Mei-loses
14. Minato [Living]-loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- loses

Not Kage Level.





It is kinda silly comparing people to hashi and edo minato who are top-tiers anyways.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> ...Well Based on the Kages we've seen in action. But anyway simple premise for the thread, each character will square off against each Kage we've seen. Depending on the amount of Kages they can beat, they will be separated into High/Mid/Low mathematically. So here are the Kages:
> 
> 1. Hashirama
> 2. Minato [Edo]
> ...




1. Hashirama- looses
2. Minato [Edo]- looses
3. Tobirama [Edo]- wins
4. Onoki- wins
5. Mu- wins
6. Gengetsu- looses
7. Sandaime-Raikage- looses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei- wins
11. Rasa- wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-wins
13. Mei- wins
14. Minato [Living]-wins
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- looses

gai beats 10 out of 15. Mid[high] kage level


----------



## Santoryu (Jul 20, 2015)

Uchiha Itachi and Hatake Kakashi (No double Sharingan)

1. Hashirama-L
2. Minato [Edo]-L
3. Tobirama [Edo]-U
4. Onoki-W
5. Mu-W
6. Gengetsu-W
7. Sandaime-Raikage-W
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]-W
9. Hiruzen [Edo]-W
10. Ei-W
11. Rasa-W
12. Gaara [War Arc]-W
13. Mei-W
14. Minato [Living]-L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-W

According to your rankings they're High [Low] Kage" - Can Beat 11 to 12.


----------



## Mercurial (Jul 20, 2015)

*Spoiler*: _Nagato_ 




1. Hashirama - totally loses
2. Minato [Edo] - totally loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - it can go either way
4. Onoki - wins easily
5. Mu - wins easily
6. Gengetsu - wins easily
7. Sandaime-Raikage - wins easily
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins easily
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins easily
10. Ei - wins easily
11. Rasa - wins easily
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins easily
13. Mei - wins easily
14. Minato [Living] - it can go either way
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins easily



W: 11
L: 2
50/50: 2

*Verdict:* High Kage (Low) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Gai (up to 7th Gate only)_ 




1. Hashirama - loses probably
2. Minato [Edo] - it can go either way
3. Tobirama [Edo] - wins
4. Onoki - wins
5. Mu - wins
6. Gengetsu - wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - it can go either way
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins easily
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins easily
10. Ei - wins
11. Rasa - wins easily
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins
13. Mei - wins easily
14. Minato [Living] - wins
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins



W: 12
L: 1
50/50: 2

*Verdict:* High Kage (Mid/Low) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Danzo_ 





1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - gets stomped
4. Onoki - wins
5. Mu - wins
6. Gengetsu - wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - it can go either way
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins
10. Ei - wins
11. Rasa - wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - it can go either way
13. Mei - wins easily
14. Minato [Living] - gets stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - it can go either way



W: 8
L: 4
50/50: 3

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Mid) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Killer B_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - gets stomped
4. Onoki - wins
5. Mu - it can go either way
6. Gengetsu - wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - it can go either way
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins easily
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins easily
10. Ei - wins
11. Rasa - wins easily
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins easily
13. Mei - wins easily
14. Minato [Living] - gets stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins easily



W: 9
L: 4
50/50: 2

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Mid) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Kisame_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - gets stomped
4. Onoki - it can go either way
5. Mu - loses
6. Gengetsu - wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - it can go either way 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins easily
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins easily
10. Ei - it can go either way
11. Rasa - wins easily
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins
13. Mei - wins easily
14. Minato [Living] - gets stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins



W: 7
L: 5
50/50: 3

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Low) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Sage Jiraiya_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - gets stomped
4. Onoki - it can go either way
5. Mu - it can go either way
6. Gengetsu - wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - it can go either way 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins easily
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins easily
10. Ei - it can go either way
11. Rasa - wins easily
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins easily
13. Mei - wins easily
14. Minato [Living] - gets stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins easily



W: 7
L: 4
50/50: 4

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Low/Mid) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Itachi_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - loses
4. Onoki - wins
5. Mu - wins
6. Gengetsu - wins easily
7. Sandaime-Raikage - wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins easily
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins easily
10. Ei - wins
11. Rasa - wins easily
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins
13. Mei - wins easily
14. Minato [Living] - loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins




W: 12
L: 3
50/50: 0

*Verdict:* High Kage (Low) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Sasori_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - gets stomped
4. Onoki - gets stomped
5. Mu - gets stomped
6. Gengetsu - loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - gets stomped
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - it can go either way
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - loses
10. Ei - loses
11. Rasa - wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins
13. Mei - wins
14. Minato [Living] - gets stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins



W: 4
L: 10
50/50: 1

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Mid) by these standards 


*Spoiler*: _Kakashi (1MS)_ 




1. Hashirama - loses almost every time
2. Minato [Edo] - loses almost every time
3. Tobirama [Edo] - wins more times than not
4. Onoki - wins easily
5. Mu - wins
6. Gengetsu - wins easily
7. Sandaime-Raikage - wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins easily
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins easily
10. Ei - wins
11. Rasa - wins easily
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins easily
13. Mei - wins easily
14. Minato [Living] - wins more times than not
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins easily



W: 13
L: 2
50/50: 0

*Verdict:* High Kage (Mid) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Kakuzu_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - loses
4. Onoki - loses
5. Mu - gets stomped
6. Gengetsu - it can go either way
7. Sandaime-Raikage - gets stomped
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins
10. Ei - loses
11. Rasa - wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - loses
13. Mei - wins easily
14. Minato [Living] - loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - loses



W: 4
L: 9
50/50: 1

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Mid) by these standards 


*Spoiler*: _Deidara_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - gets stomped
4. Onoki - it can go either way
5. Mu - loses
6. Gengetsu - wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - gets stomped 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins easily
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins
10. Ei - gets stomped
11. Rasa - wins easily
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins 
13. Mei - wins easily
14. Minato [Living] - gets stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins



W: 7
L: 7
50/50: 1

*Verdict:* Mid Kage (Low) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Darui_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - gets stomped
4. Onoki - loses
5. Mu - gets stomped
6. Gengetsu - loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - gets stomped
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - it can go either way
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - loses
10. Ei - gets stomped
11. Rasa - it can go either way
12. Gaara [War Arc] - loses
13. Mei - it can go either way
14. Minato [Living] - gets stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - loses



W: 0
L: 12
50/50: 3

*Verdict:* Not Kage level/Low Kage level (Low) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Choji_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - gets stomped
4. Onoki - gets stomped
5. Mu - gets stomped
6. Gengetsu - gets stomped
7. Sandaime-Raikage - gets stomped
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - loses
10. Ei - gets stomped
11. Rasa - loses
12. Gaara [War Arc] - gets stomped
13. Mei - it can go either way
14. Minato [Living] - gets stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - gets stomped



W: 0
L: 14
50/50: 1

*Verdict:* Not Kage level by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Hiashi_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - gets stomped
4. Onoki - loses
5. Mu - loses
6. Gengetsu - loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - gets stomped
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - it can go either way
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - it can go either way
10. Ei - loses
11. Rasa - it can go either way
12. Gaara [War Arc] - loses
13. Mei - wins
14. Minato [Living] - gets stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - loses



W: 1
L: 11
50/50: 3 

*Verdict:* Low Kage (Low) level by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Gold & Silver Brothers_ 




1. Hashirama - get stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - get stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - get stomped
4. Onoki - get stomped
5. Mu - get stomped
6. Gengetsu - lose
7. Sandaime-Raikage - get stomped
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - it can go either way
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - lose
10. Ei - lose
11. Rasa - it can go either way
12. Gaara [War Arc] - get stomped
13. Mei - it can go either way
14. Minato [Living] - get stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - get stomped



W: 0
L: 12
50/50: 3

*Verdict:* Not Kage level/Low Kage level (Low) by these standards


*Spoiler*: _Konan_ 




1. Hashirama - gets stomped
2. Minato [Edo] - gets stomped
3. Tobirama [Edo] - gets stomped
4. Onoki - gets stomped
5. Mu - gets stomped
6. Gengetsu - loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - it can go either way
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - loses
10. Ei - loses
11. Rasa - it can go either way
12. Gaara [War Arc] - loses 
13. Mei - it can go either way
14. Minato [Living] - gets stomped
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - loses




W: 0
L: 12
50/50: 3

*Verdict:* Not Kage level/Low Kage level (Low) by these standards


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

@raikiri19 you really think kinkaku and ginkaku cant beat Mei in a 2vs 1 scenario?

or hiruzen 

really?

they also beat tsunade properly. their jutsu pretty much renders her regen pointless


----------



## RBL (Jul 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> 1. Hashirama- looses
> 2. Minato [Edo]- looses
> 3. Tobirama [Edo]- wins
> 4. Onoki- wins
> ...



can you explain these ones?

specially the gengetsu one, why is gengetsu so damn wanked.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> can you explain these ones?
> 
> specially the gengetsu one, why is gengetsu so damn wanked.



that coming from you i must say is hilarious

well suigetsu with some water wasnt vaporized by bijudama which is clearly above anything gai has

the moment gai is powering up. gengetsu can use jouki boy and hide

gai has no reason to look for him. and will keep fighting an unkillable clone till he drops 

thats why

and yes i am saying with no knowledge gai isnt remotely smart enough to look for gengetsu nor does he have any techniques that allow him to find gengetsu

gai couldnt remember kisame face his intelligence is 3 so he in the likes of kiba range. doesnt say much of him 

if gai attempts to attack gengetsu in base he gets casually raped. so anyhow you cut it gai looses


----------



## RBL (Jul 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> that coming from you i must say is hilarious
> 
> well suigetsu with some water wasnt vaporized by bijudama which is clearly above anything gai has
> 
> ...



I might be wrong,but do we have any gengetsu feat?

i find it stupid that gai looses against gengetsu but you say he can win against minato


----------



## Turrin (Jul 20, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> It's a good concept but people like Sasori who are clearly Mid Kage, maybe even high end mid kage, are gimped and by these statistics and are low kage by default.


I disagree, I think people are just underrating Sasori's capabilities.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> I might be wrong,but do we have any gengetsu feat?
> 
> i find it stupid that gai looses against gengetsu but you say he can win against minato



i didnt say he can win against minato 
also gengetsu and minato arent the same people 

read the manga brandon 

gengetsu can use jouki boy and hide out

gai is screwed from that point since he wont even know to look for the real body


----------



## RBL (Jul 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> *i didnt say he can win against minato *
> also gengetsu and minato arent the same people
> 
> read the manga brandon
> ...



you did lol.

p.s and sorry for a momment i thought we were talking about suigetsu's brother , i still think gai can win, not sure about minato tho


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

Sasori 

. Hashirama- looses- not worth discussing
2. Minato [Edo]- looses- not worth discussing 
3. Tobirama [Edo]- looses- GFK
4. Onoki- looses- jinton
5. Mu- looses- jinton
6. Gengetsu- looses- jouki boy
7. Sandaime-Raikage- looses - not worth discussing
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- looses- katsuyu GG
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- wins
10. Ei- looses- not worth discussing 
11. Rasa- wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-looses- tough fight but gaara comes out untop
13. Mei- wins
14. Minato [Living]-looses- not worth discussing 
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- wins

sasori 4 wins out of 15. so he is low kage level


----------



## RBL (Jul 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sasori
> 
> . Hashirama- looses- not worth discussing
> 2. Minato [Edo]- looses- not worth discussing
> ...



how is sasori defeating shukaku gaara and edo hiruzen?

the only one i see sasori defeating is Mei, sasori is kind of overrated, i don't see him defeating anyone but mei perhaps.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> you did lol.
> 
> p.s and sorry for a momment i thought we were talking about suigetsu's brother , i still think gai can win, not sure about minato tho



then i recant my statement
gai looses to minato and gengetsu


----------



## Turrin (Jul 20, 2015)

Nagato:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Losses
2. Minato [Edo] - Losses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Though I could see Tobirama winning with Hiraishin + Tandem Explosive Tags, I see Nagato taking this more often than not. 65/35 Nagato.
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Wins
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins




High [Mid] Kage

Gai


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Losses
2. Minato [Edo] - Losses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Losses 

4. Onoki - Gai is simply too fast for Onoki and can manuever around Jinton to take Onoki out with Gates. Wins

5. Mu - Invis can be a bitch, but if Gai see's him go invis, he'll release AT/MP to use AOE to take him out, and if Mu waits too long to try and go invis Gai will take him out before he gets a chance. Mu could still pull a win, but Gai wins much more often than not. Wins

6. Gengetsu - The AOE of MP and AT will take care of Clam, and from there he overwhelms Gengetsu with his speed

7. Sandaime-Raikage - I'm not sure Sandaime can survive multiple MP/AT attacks when alive, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he wins with extremely high difficulty. Losses

8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - I'm sorry, but I do believe Gai would eventually opt to cut off her head if she was just relying on regen to survive, and at least w/ war arc Byakugo I don't see her being able to shield herself long enough against Gates to outlast Gai. Wins

9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Losses, because Gai can't shut down an Edo

10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins

14. Minato [Living] - Gai is faster than Ei, and Ei nearly tagged Minato, so I believe Gai will be able to do the same, especially with the AOE of his attacks, and beat down Minato. Wins

15. Gaara [Start of Part II]  - Wins




Mid [High] Kage

Danzo:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Losses
2. Minato [Edo] - Losses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Wins

4. Onoki - Due to Onoki's knowledge of Koto and Danzo, he may be able to keep Koto at bay with Iwabunshin while using Jinton and his other skills to take on Danzo. Due to Izanagi however I think Danzo has better odds to win overall. Wins

5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Depends on if Sharingan can find the Clam
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Wins
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins




High [Low] Kage to High [Mid] Kage

Killer-B:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Losses 
2. Minato [Edo] - Losses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Tobirama should be able to deal with TBB w/ Hiraishin and Tandem Explosive tags should be able to deal with Hachibi. Losses
4. Onoki - I could see the match going ether way. so i'm not sure

5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins

14. Minato [Living] - Minato could end it with Shiki Fuujin, but that would be a draw, in all other circumstance B wins. So we'll i'm not sure

15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins. 




Mid [High] Kage to High [Low] Kage

Kisame [W/ Bijuu Chakra]:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Losses
2. Minato [Edo] - Losses 
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Losses

4. Onoki - I'm not sure. I don't know if Samehada can absorb an element like Jinton, and Onoki has massive Doton and flight to help keep Kisame's massive Suitons at bay. Granted if Jinton can be absorbed Onoki will loose, but if it can't he'll win.

5. Mu - Much for the same reasons as Onoki i'm not sure who would win this. Though Kisame would have better odds against Mu even if Jinton does work as Mu doesn't have massive Dotons to defend himself, however if Jinton does work Mu could still pull out a win.

6. Gengetsu -Basically comes down to whether he can absorb the chakra out of Joki Boi, something i'm not sure off.

7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins

14. Minato [Living] - Minato probably eventually wins w/ extremely high difficulty using Senjutsu against Kisame's chakra absorption, but I could also see Kisame pulling a win.

15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins




Mid [Mid] Kage to High [Low] Kage

SM-Jiraiya:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Losses
2. Minato [Edo] - Lossses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Losses

4. Onoki - With SM Sensing Jiraiya will know when Jinton is coming and can attempt to preempt it, but if Onoki gets it off, that's the end for Jiraiya, while Onoki can stay out of Jiraiya's range stalling with Iwabushin and flight until he gets off Jinton. Meanwhile Jiraiya can do the same for Frog Song, but since Jinton is easier to execute I give Onoki the advantage here, but i'm not quite sure

5. Mu - While Jinton is still a danger for Jiraiya, unlike Onoki Mu lacks the necessary defensive technique to fight SM-Jiraiya until he can get off a good shot. SM-J-man wins

6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage  - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins 
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins

14. Minato [Living] - Jiraiya has a great deal of knowledge on Minato's fighting style and Hiraishin, so I think he has a chance here to game around it and stall for Frog Song, but i'm not sure

15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins




Mid [High] Kage to High [Low] Kage

Itachi:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Losses
2. Minato [Edo] - Losses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Losses

4. Onoki - Itachi could win with Amaterasu or Tsukyuomi if Onoki makes a mistake, but Onoki can win with Jinton. He can also win in an attrition war and can deal with Itachi's strongest Jutsu Susano'o. So I lean towards Onoki, but i'm not sure

5. Mu - Similar to Onoki, but I lean towards Itachi here instead, but not enough to be sure

6. Gengetsu - Depends on if Sharingan can find the Clam.

7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Losses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins




Mid [Mid] Kage to High [Low] Kage

Sasori:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Lossses
2. Minato [Edo] - Lossses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Lossses
4. Onoki - Losses
5. Mu - Losses
6. Gengetsu - Lossses

7. Sandaime-Raikage - Personally I believe Sasori can conjure the necessary force to leave a mere scratch on that guy and that's all he needs. Wins

8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Looses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins




Mid [Mid] Kage

Kakuzu:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Loses 
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses 
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses

10. Ei - Not sure, could see him wining by taking Ei off guard with Fuuton Mask before Ei dials things to 11

11. Rasa - Loses
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses 
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins




Low [Low] Kage to Low [Mid] Kage

Deidara


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo]  - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses 
7. Sandaime-Raikage  - Loses 

8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Can defend Deidara's Bombs pretty well with Katsuya, but lacks Ranged fire power outside of Zeshi Nendan, I could see the match going ether way

9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses 
11. Rasa - Loses
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses

13. Mei - I'm not sure Mei's Water Dragon is good for deal with his flight and she does have Raiton, but she lacks a great enough defense outside of Raiton to deal with Deidara's bombs

14. Minato [Living] - Losses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins




Low [Low] Kage to Low [Mid] Kage

Darui:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo]  - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Loses
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses

13. Mei - While Mei has the edge I could see Darui beating her a number of times with Ranton

14. Minato [Living]  - Loses

15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Depends if Gaara's Gourd Sand can block Black Lighting and Storm Release




Maybe Low [Low] Kage

Will do more later


----------



## RBL (Jul 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> then i recant my statement
> gai looses to minato and gengetsu



this is stupid bro, u can't just do that just because i'm asking you something 

but oh well.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 20, 2015)

I think ranking all the official Kages by themselves, dividing them up into the categories in question, and then considering which people on said list each of the non-Kages best compares to or stands between might be a somewhat more accurate approach than just looking at how many of the Kage on the list they can beat.

Just a suggestion though.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 20, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I think ranking all the official Kages by themselves, dividing them up into the categories in question, and then considering which people on said list each of the non-Kages best compares to or stands between might be a somewhat more accurate approach than just looking at how many of the Kage on the list they can beat.
> 
> Just a suggestion though.


And that is not possible on this forum because everyone will disagree about the Kages placements. This thread avoids all that angst and nonsense, by just not ranking the Kages. 

I'm not saying it's thee most accurate representation though, to be perfectly honest it's not because we'd need to have detailed information on all Kages, to really do this properly, and some Kages we haven't seen as much from as others and some Kages were left off the list because we haven't seen enough from them to even judge. 

It's just a fun exercise based on our current info.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 20, 2015)

1. Nagato


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - loses
2. Minato [Edo] can go eitherway
3. Tobirama [Edo] - wins
4. Onoki - wins
5. Mu -wins 
6. Gengetsu - wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins
10. Ei - wins
11. Rasa - wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins
13. Mei - wins
14. Minato [Living] - wins
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - wins




13 wins 1 can go eitherway 1 loss = *High [Mid Kage]*

6. SM-Jiraiya


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - loses
2. Minato [Edo] - loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] -  can go eitherway
4. Onoki - loses
5. Mu - can go eitherway
6. Gengetsu - loses 
7. Sandaime-Raikage - loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - wins
10. Ei - loses 
11. Rasa - wins 
12. Gaara [War Arc] - wins
13. Mei - wins 
14. Minato [Living] - loses 
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - loses




5 wins 2 can go eitherway 8 losses = *Low [high] Kage*


----------



## Rocky (Jul 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato
> 
> 2. Minato [Edo] can go eitherway



Nagato doesn't stand a chance against BM Naruto, let alone BM Minato.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> how is sasori defeating shukaku gaara and edo hiruzen?
> 
> the only one i see sasori defeating is Mei, sasori is kind of overrated, i don't see him defeating anyone but mei perhaps.



HIruzen edo or not doesn't have anything to suggest he doesn't get pinned down by iron sand world order. 

once the iron sand hits him, he is down for the count. poison works on ET with poison resistance. so hiruzen drops like a fly 

if u think mei is the only one good for u. 

however hiruzen shouldn't fair much better


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> this is stupid bro, u can't just do that just because i'm asking you something
> 
> but oh well.




why cant I recant 

you asked me why I think gengetsu wins 
I already told you 

gai wont find him and would waste time fighting and unkillable clone


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Jul 20, 2015)

*Spoiler*: _Sasori_ 



1. Hashirama-L
3. Tobirama-W
4. Onoki-W
5. Mu-L
6. Gengetsu-W
7. either Raikage-L
8. Tsunade -W
9. Hiruzen [Edo]-L
12. Gaara [War Arc] -W
13. Mei-W
14. Minato [Living]-W




*Spoiler*: _Danzo w/out Koto_ 




1. Hashirama-L
3. Tobirama -L
4. Onoki-W
5. Mu-L
6. Gengetsu-W
7. either Raikage-W 
8. Tsunade -W
9. Hiruzen [Edo]-L
12. Gaara [War Arc]-W
13. Mei-W
14. Minato [Living]-L




*Spoiler*: _1 MS kakashi_ 



1. Hashirama-L
3. Tobirama -L
4. Onoki-L
5. Mu-W
6. Gengetsu-L
7. either Raikage-L 
8. Tsunade-50/50
9. Hiruzen [Edo]-L
12. Gaara [War Arc]-L
13. Mei-W
14. Minato [Living]-L




*Spoiler*: _Deidara_ 



1. Hashirama-L
3. Tobirama -L
4. Onoki-L
5. Mu-L
6. Gengetsu-W
7. either Raikage -L
8. Tsunade -W
9. Hiruzen [Edo]-L
12. Gaara [War Arc]-W
13. Mei- 50/50
14. Minato [Living]-L




*Spoiler*: _Kakuzu_ 




1. Hashirama-L
3. Tobirama -L
4. Onoki-L
5. Mu-L
6. Gengetsu-W
7. either Raikage-L 
8. Tsunade -W
9. Hiruzen [Edo]-L
12. Gaara [War Arc]-W
13. Mei-W
14. Minato [Living]-L




*Spoiler*: _Kisame w/ sword charged_ 



1. Hashirama-L
3. Tobirama-W
4. Onoki-L
5. Mu-L
6. Gengetsu-W
7. either Raikage-L 
8. Tsunade -W
9. Hiruzen [Edo]-L
12. Gaara [War Arc]-W
13. Mei-W
14. Minato [Living]-W


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nagato doesn't stand a chance against BM Naruto, let alone BM Minato.



I think BM Naruto is stronger than Minato as he can also implement sage mode. 

I think it can go eitherway because as long as Nagato as asura path all of BM Minato's big weapons(big rasengan bijuudama) are useless. And a CT from Nagato can actually trap him. 

I'd lean on BM Minato but I think Nagato has a shot as he is well equipped to fight tailed beasts.

Just remember how he 1 paneled B and Naruto simultaneously.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 20, 2015)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> *Spoiler*: _Sasori_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sasori beats Minato, Tobirama & Onoki?

Wow.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jul 20, 2015)

Test list has a bit too many high-end Kages imo.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think BM Naruto is stronger than Minato as he can also implement sage mode.



BSM Naruto might be stronger than BM Minato. They're comparable, just like Minato & SM Naruto are comparable outside of Tailed Beast Mode.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think it can go eitherway because as long as Nagato as asura path all of BM Minato's big weapons(big rasengan bijuudama) are useless. And a CT from Nagato can actually trap him.



Er, Kurama Avatar. 

He beats Nagato into the ground. Saying that Nagato matches up well against jins because of Preta Path is like saying he matches up well against Hashirama, who's another that is completely reliant on ninjutsu. 

What's worse for Nagato is that Minato's Hiraishin techniques aren't something that Nagato can absorb.


----------



## Matty (Jul 20, 2015)

*Sasori*

1. Hashirama- L 
2. Minato [Edo]- L
3. Tobirama [Edo]- 50/50 with no knowledge
4. Onoki- L
5. Mu- W
6. Gengetsu-W
7. Sandaime-Raikage-L 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]-W
9. Hiruzen [Edo]-W
10. Ei-L
11. Rasa-L
12. Gaara [War Arc]- W
13. Mei- W
14. Minato [Living]- L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- W

*Itachi*

1. Hashirama- L
2. Minato [Edo]- L
3. Tobirama [Edo]- W
4. Onoki- W
5. Mu- W
6. Gengetsu- W
7. Sandaime-Raikage- W 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]- W
9. Hiruzen [Edo]- W
10. Ei- W
11. Rasa- W
12. Gaara [War Arc]- W
13. Mei- W
14. Minato [Living]- L
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]- W

*Nagato*

1. Hashirama
2. Minato [Edo]
3. Tobirama [Edo]
4. Onoki
5. Mu
6. Gengetsu
7. Sandaime-Raikage 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]
9. Hiruzen [Edo]
10. Ei
11. Rasa
12. Gaara [War Arc]
13. Mei
14. Minato [Living]
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]

He wins against all except Edo Minato and Hashi

@DaVizWiz I agree he's not beating Minato or Onoki (Unless living Minato is THAT reliant on those kunai) but I don't think Tobirama is that much of a stretch.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @ryuzaki am baffled konan beats Muu. entirely utterly baffled
> 
> feel free to explain that please
> 
> 360 jinton GG


That's a mistake, she loses to both Oonoki and Muu, if you count it up that would mean she's higher than she's rated. I was copy/pasting things from all over last night so it might have just gotten tagged on.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> BSM Naruto might be stronger than BM Minato. They're comparable, just like Minato & SM Naruto are comparable outside of Tailed Beast Mode.


Thats a fair assesment. Though I'd say Minato is comfortably above SM Naruto.



> Er, Kurama Avatar.
> 
> He beats Nagato into the ground. Saying that Nagato matches up well against jins because of Preta Path is like saying he matches up well against Hashirama, who's another that is completely reliant on ninjutsu.


But we have seen Hashirama fight a more powerful dude with the Rinnegan and stalemate him. We also saw his wood dragon and Madara's absorbtion negate each other.
And Hashirama is on a completely different weight class.



> What's worse for Nagato is that Minato's Hiraishin techniques aren't something that Nagato can absorb.


The thing is, Hirashin is still Hirashin whether Minato is using SM or BM, it is the exact same jutsu.
Either Nagato can deal with it or he can't.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But we have seen Hashirama fight a more powerful dude with the Rinnegan and stalemate him.



You could swap Hashirama for Madara and my point stands. Do you think Nagato could jump up and absorb Madara's Perfect Susano'o? No right?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Either Nagato can deal with it or he can't.



The only way Nagato can kill base Minato is by hitting him with a powerful enough Shinra Tensei. Otherwise, Nagato can't really catch him and Minato'd eventually mark Nagato over the course of the fight.

My point here is that with the added defense that the Kurama Chakra Shroud grants, even big Shinra Tensei aren't ending this fight. Minato doesn't _need_ the full Kurama avatar and nukes to win (even though they'd suffice). He'd just fight like he would in base, with raw speed.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 20, 2015)

The one thing this thread really did simplify for me is that really no one short of the ones that possess Rikoudu chakra can beat Hashirama except for perhaps 8th Gated Gai?


----------



## Uzzui (Jul 20, 2015)

*A*


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Nagato*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Wins
Alive Minato: Wins
Tobirama: Wins
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Wins
Muu: Wins
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Wins
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Jin Gaara: Wins

*High Mid Kage Level*




*Gai [6th and 7th Gate only]*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Draw
Tobirama: Wins
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: 6th draw/7th Wins
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Jin Gaara: Wins

*Mid High Kage Level *




*Danzo [Koto Charged]*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Wins
Tobirama: Wins
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Wins
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*High Low Kage Level*




*Killer-B*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*Mid Low Kage Level*




*Kisame [W/ Bijuu Chakra]*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Draws
Tobirama: Wins
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Draws
Muu: Wins
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*Mid High Kage Level*




*SM-Jiraiya*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Draws
Tobirama: Wins
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*Mid Mid Kage Level*




*Itachi*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Wins
Tobirama: Wins
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Wins
Muu: Wins
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Wins
Ei the 3rd: Wins
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*High Mid Kage Level*




*Sasori*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Wins
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Wins
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*Mid Low kage Level*




*Kakashi [War-Arc, but no double Sharingan]*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Loses
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*Low Mid Kage Level*




*Kakuzu*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Loses
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*Low High Kage Level*






*
B
*


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Deidara*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Draws
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*Low High Kage Level*




*Darui*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Loses
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Loses
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Loses

*Not Kage Level*




*Choji*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Loses
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Loses
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Loses

*Not Kage Level*





*Haishi*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Loses
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Loses
Gaara: Loses
Mei: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Loses

*Not Kage Level*




*Chiyo*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Loses
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Loses

*Low Low Kage*




*Kinkaku and Ginkaku*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Wins
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Wins
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Wins
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Wins
Shukaku Gaara: Wins

*Mid Low Kage*




*Konan*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama: Loses
Edo Minato: Loses
Alive Minato: Loses
Tobirama: Loses
Hiruzen: Draws
Byakguo Tsunade: Loses
Muu: Loses
Onoki: Loses
Gengetsu: Loses
Ei the 3rd: Loses
Ei the 4th: Loses
Rasa: Loses
Gaara: Wins
Mei: Loses
Shukaku Gaara: Loses

*Low Low Hokage*


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> ...Well Based on the Kages we've seen in action. But anyway simple premise for the thread, each character will square off against each Kage we've seen. Depending on the amount of Kages they can beat, they will be separated into High/Mid/Low mathematically. So here are the Kages:
> 
> 1. Hashirama
> 2. Minato [Edo]
> ...



Edo Minato never had that power as Hokage, as Biju Mode obviously makes him much stronger. He should be excluded.

Part one rusty Tsunade should also be included, since she's by far the weakest Kage, almost losing to part one Kabuto.

Old Hiruzen is also an incarnation of a weak Hokage or, Low Kage Hokage, that shouldn't be excluded.  

So you removed some key Low Kage fighters, added a top tier, and overlook the issue with Hashirama being a High Kage tier.

i.e. Hashirama, when using Sage Mode, can literally defeat all of the other Kages combined. He transcended the title of Kage.

So your scale is going to be flawed for these reasons IMO. A more accurate list of opponents would be:

_Tobirama 
Minato
Mu
Onoki
Sandaime-Raikage 
A
Gengetsu
War-Arc Tsunade
Edo Hiruzen
Rasa
Gaara
Mei
Old Hiruzen
Rusty Tsunade_

A secondary problem can be seen in how you're rating them. If you look at the above names and divide them evenly by number:

_Tobirama 
Minato
Mu
Onoki
Sandaime-Raikage 

A
Gengetsu
War-Arc Tsunade
Edo Hiruzen
Rasa

Gaara
Mei
Old Hiruzen
Rusty Tsunade_

But the problem here is that Gaara is _way_ stronger than Rusty Tsunade. Dividing evenly won't yield accurate results.

Still, cool thread. I just don't put stock in the results of the system for these reasons.

This is why people eyeball levels i.e. weakest shown Kage being rusty Tsunade, and then supplement the tier with ninja in that level.

The logic being that, if rusty Tsunade was worthy of being Kage, then people around her power level are also worthy, power-wise.​


----------



## Matty (Jul 20, 2015)

Should've included Tayuya too


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 20, 2015)

*Nagato*

1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Wins
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Wins
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

Wins 13. Mid high Kage.

*Gai:*


Hashirama - Loses
Edo Minato - Loses
Tobirama edo - Loses
Onoki - Wins
Mu - circunstancial - Loses
Gengetsu - Wins
 Sandaime Raikage - Loses
Tsunade - Wins
Ei - Could go either way.
Rasa - Wins
Gaara War arc - Wins
Mei - Wins
Minato - Loses
Gaara - Wins

Wins 7/8 of 15.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Edo Minato never had that power as Hokage, as Biju Mode obviously makes him much stronger. He should be excluded.
> 
> Part one rusty Tsunade should also be included, since she's by far the weakest Kage, almost losing to part one Kabuto.
> 
> ...



but rusty tsunade never held that title. it was only after her fight with orochimaru that she became kage

old hiruzen also had retired so i dont see why he would be included

also he is too weak to be low kage level


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2015)

Too weak to seal away Orochimaru's Edo Tensei & take his arms?

No, the manga clearly depicted Geezer Hiruzen as Kage level.

Tsunade was offered the position prior to battling Orochimaru, thus Rusty Tsunade would've been acceptable for Hokage as far as the manga is depicting.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 21, 2015)

Fair enough
Well those 2 are by so far the weakest 
So Yh if hashirama is included those 2 should have been as they are both on the extreme end of the scales 

I'll do Orochimaru since I am at it 
Hashirama -L
Minato any version-L
Hiruzen any version -W
Tobirama- W
Tsunade-W
Gaara any version - W
Muu- L
Onoki-L
A-W
Sandaime raikage-W
Mei-W
Gengetsu - W

Oro wins 11 out of 15 high[mid] kage level


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 21, 2015)

Tobirama shits on Sasori 
Considering the guy didn't actually rely on kunai for Hirashin but clones 
He summons ET and GFK GG

The guy was an ET spammer . Everytime his name is brought up ET is mentioned accordingly . That's the first thing he is going to do against Sasori and from there it's an ungodly stomp 

If chiyo could react at all to Sasori attacks imagine a sensor who is physically much faster than she is and also has Hirashin 

Sasori touching tobirama is pure fan fic


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Edo Minato never had that power as Hokage, as Biju Mode obviously makes him much stronger. He should be excluded.​



Someone does not stop being a Kage. When Minato is resurrected he is still the Yondaime-Hokage.



> Part one rusty Tsunade should also be included, since she's by far the weakest Kage, almost losing to part one Kabuto.


As I very clearly noted in the opening, I excluded Kages that we don't have enough information to rate. We only got to see Tsunade fight for a few moments after getting her groove back in the Sannin duel and never saw her fight in P1 after assuming the position of Hokage. So I have no clue how anyone can rate her. 



> Old Hiruzen is also an incarnation of a weak Hokage or, Low Kage Hokage, that shouldn't be excluded.


He was excluded in favor of Edo-Hiruzen, because there are heavy disputes over what Old-Hiruzen is capable off stamina wise. And therefore I did not think we had enough information to rate him.



> So you removed some key Low Kage fighters,


I removed:

1. Shodai Tsuchikage
2. Yondaime Tsuchikage
3. Shodai Raikage
3. Nindaime Raikage
4. Godaime Raikage
5. Shodai Mizukage
6. Sandaime Mizukage
7. Rokudaime Mizukage
8. Multiple Future Incarnations of Gaara
9. Rokudaime Kakashi
9. Nanadaime Naruto
10. Yondaime Mizukage
11. Shodai Kazekage
12. Nindaime Kazekage
13. Sandaime Kazekage
14. Living Tobirama
15. P1 Tsunade
16. Old Hiruzen

Among them might be Kages that are on average weaker than the ones we've seen, or they might be stronger on average. To complain about 1 or 2 being omitted is silly. Obviously this thread is not representative of how these characters rank among all Kages, just the ones we've seen enough to form NBD style conclusions. 



> and overlook the issue with Hashirama being a High Kage tier.
> 
> i.e. Hashirama, when using Sage Mode, can literally defeat all of the other Kages combined. He transcended the title of Kage.


You can't transcend the title of Kage. Kage is just the leader of a village and in charge of protecting that village. Someone could be 1,000x stronger than Hashirama and if they are elected Kage, than they are "Kage-level", they just raise the bar. Fuck Hashirama isn't even the strongest Hokage anymore, that would go to Naruto. 



> So your scale is going to be flawed for these reasons IMO. A more accurate list of opponents would be


I truly don't see how omitting Kages we do have enough information on to evaluate and adding ones we don't, will make anything more accurate.



> But the problem here is that Gaara is way stronger than Rusty Tsunade. Dividing evenly won't yield accurate results.


Well Rusty Tsunade isn't on my list so there is no reason for me to be worried about that.​


----------



## The Undying (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm not giving any of the zombies the Edo-regen ability because honestly, it wouldn't be fair if the opponent lacks a sealing method.


*Spoiler*: _Nagato_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - ???
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - ???
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* High Kage, easily.





*Spoiler*: _Guy (without 8th Gate)_ 





*Verdict:* Omitting this list because a ton of these are undecided for me. Mid Kage, probably.





*Spoiler*: _Danzou_ 





1. Hashirama - ???
2. Minato [Edo] - ???
3. Tobirama [Edo] - ???
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - ???
6. Gengetsu - ???
7. Sandaime Raikage - ???
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - ???
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - ???
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* I don't know if Kotoamatsukami's activation rate is nigh-instant, so anyone with enough speed (or a specific ability) to escape his field of vision might be able to avoid it. If so, he's Mid Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Bijuu Kisame_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - ???
5. Mu - ???
6. Gengetsu - ???
7. Sandaime Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* Hard to say. Probably Mid Kage.





*Spoiler*: _SM Jiraiya_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime Raikage - ???
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - ???
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* Either the ceiling of Mid Kage or the floor of High Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Itachi (Healthy)_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - ???
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - ???
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* High Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Sasori_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* Mid Kage.





*Spoiler*: _MS Kakashi_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - ???
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime Raikage - ???
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - ???
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* Mid Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Kakuzu_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime Raikage - Loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* Low Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Deidara_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime Raikage - Loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - ???
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* Deidara's abilities are enough to put him in the Mid Kage range, but his relative lack of intelligence and foresight have been known to hinder him pretty severely. As an added note, he only beats Gengetsu via match-up. Low Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Darui_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime Raikage - Loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - ???
12. Gaara [War Arc] - ???
13. Mei - ???
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - ???

*Verdict:* Possibly Low Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Chouji_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime Raikage - Loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Loses
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses
13. Mei - Loses
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Loses

*Verdict:* Not contending with any of the Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Hiashi_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime Raikage - Loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Loses
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Loses
13. Mei - ???
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Loses

*Verdict:* Possibly Low Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Chiyo_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime Raikage - Loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - ???
12. Gaara [War Arc] - ???
13. Mei - ???
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - ???

*Verdict:* Betting on Low Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Kinkaku and Ginkaku_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime Raikage - Loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* Low Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Konan_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Loses
5. Mu - Loses
6. Gengetsu - Loses
7. Sandaime Raikage - Loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Loses
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Loses
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* Low Kage, based on what we've seen. I have to acknowledge that she could be stronger though.





*Spoiler*: _Extra characters for fun_ 






*Spoiler*: _EMS Madara (without Kyuubi)_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - ???
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Wins
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Wins
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* High Kage.





*Spoiler*: _MS Obito_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - Wins
5. Mu - Wins
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* High Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Orochimaru_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - ???
5. Mu - ???
6. Gengetsu - Wins
7. Sandaime Raikage - Wins
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - ???
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Loses
10. Ei - Wins
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* Mid Kage.





*Spoiler*: _Base Naruto (The Last)_ 





1. Hashirama - Loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Loses
3. Tobirama [Edo] - Loses
4. Onoki - ???
5. Mu - ???
6. Gengetsu - ???
7. Sandaime Raikage - Loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Wins
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - Wins
10. Ei - Loses
11. Rasa - Wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - Wins
13. Mei - Wins
14. Minato [Living] - Loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Wins

*Verdict:* Mid Kage.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

One thing this thread shows me is that Gengetsu is underestimated.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 21, 2015)

It's pretty clear cut who Gengetsu does and doesn't beat.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

Sasori is really overrated by some people here as well, he shouldn't be beating Gengetsu, Tobirama, Minato and/or Oonoki, ever.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I removed:
> 
> 1. Shodai Tsuchikage
> 2. Yondaime Tsuchikage
> ...



I think you should have included the Yagura, I think he had a decent showing as one of the paths didn't he?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It's pretty clear cut who Gengetsu does and doesn't beat.


Funny that you have two Undecided for Gengetsu match ups [Sasori and Kakashi] than.

Also Gengetsu vs Itachi, Deidara, Danzo, and Kisame are all debatable.



Ryuzaki said:


> I think you should have included the Yagura, I think he had a decent showing as one of the paths didn't he?


The problem is he only showed one Jutsu, so we really don't know what he adds to the equation. Even Sanbi we don't have much panel time for.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Funny that you have two Undecided for Gengetsu match ups [Sasori and Kakashi] than.
> 
> Also Gengetsu vs Itachi, Deidara, Danzo, and Kisame are all debatable.



My fault, I worded it wrong. What I mean is that he's rated fairly. Nobody is saying Chiyo beats him, and nobody is saying he beats Nagato. 

There can still be matches that go either way.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> My fault, I worded it wrong. What I mean is that he's rated fairly. Nobody is saying Chiyo beats him, and nobody is saying he beats Nagato.
> 
> There can still be matches that go either way.



To give some perspective, I did a count, and people said Mu wins like 95-96 out of the fights, while Gengetsu wins like 65-70 or something, and Mu has more undecideds. That's a large gap for someone that is suppose to be relatively equal with Mu. 

A-lote of people also have Gengetsu loosing matches that I think should at least be debatable, see the ones I posted before. 

Hence these two reasons are why I feel the thread is reflecting Gengetsu being underrated. Is he loosing to characters much weaker than him, no, but I didn't say he was extremely underrated or something of the nature, I just simply said I think he's being underrated.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

You also have to understand that people would rather make a decision than be 50/50, while it's debatable on paper, they probably went ahead worked out more scenarios in their respective minds.


----------



## The Undying (Jul 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> You also have to understand that people would rather make a decision than be 50/50, while it's debatable on paper, they probably went ahead worked out more scenarios in their respective minds.



This. I have Gengetsu losing more matches than Muu, but that's mostly a result of bad match-ups in Gengetsu's case. Muu is definitely a trickier opponent to counter than Gengetsu in my mind, but that doesn't mean they aren't equally strong against a powerful opponent who might possess effective counters for both.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

The Undying said:


> This. I have Gengetsu losing more matches than Muu, but that's mostly a result of bad match-ups in Gengetsu's case. Muu is definitely a trickier opponent to counter than Gengetsu in my mind, but that doesn't mean they aren't equally strong against a powerful opponent who might possess effective counters for both.


See I think Gengetsu is trickier than Mu. Mu has more raw-power however with Jinton. I also don't think there are many bad match ups for Gengetsu, besides say Jiriaya as he hard counters the Clam.


----------



## Matty (Jul 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Sasori is really overrated by some people here as well, he shouldn't be beating Gengetsu, Tobirama, Minato and/or Oonoki, ever.



How is he not beating Gengetsu? What can the guy do? With no knowledge IC he thinks Sasori is under the clam Genjutsu when he's not and he proceeds to get poisoned right off the bat. In any case Sasori might be Gengetsu's WORST possible opponents seeing as I can't imagine Joki boi doing much since it's not like Sasori's body will be effected by the steam and if Gaara's sand was protecting them then Iron sand will be even better.

You're right though he loses to Minato and Onoki everytime, in Onoki's case strictly because of Jinton. Tobirama can definitely beat Sasori more times than not, but I'm not one to think Tobirama outclasses him so much that it's a stomp whatsoever


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> How is he not beating Gengetsu? What can the guy do?


As you know I rate Sasori very highly, but I think your mistaken on some things relating to Gengetsu.



> With no knowledge IC he thinks Sasori is under the clam Genjutsu when he's not and he proceeds to get poisoned right off the bat


Gengetsu's illusion will likely work on Sasori. Why? Because after translating it's entry in the DB, it's not a Genjutsu that effects the target, but rather it's just a Genjutsu that creates mirages, steam manipulating light with chakra. So Sasori's Genjutsu immunity is probably useless against Gengetsu.



> In any case Sasori might be Gengetsu's WORST possible opponents seeing as I can't imagine Joki boi doing much since it's not like Sasori's body will be effected by the steam and if Gaara's sand was protecting them then Iron sand will be even better.


Sasori's Iron Sand Defense is going to be tough for Gengetsu to deal with, but he could catch Sasori off guard thx to the Clam Genjutsu and i'm not sure even Satetsu will block a point blank Joki Boi explosion, considering how it destroyed Gaara's Imperial Sand Coffin, like nothing, and took a significant amount of Sand and Gaara's new Karura defense to barely block it the second time. Than again Iron Sand is stronger than Gaara's Sand, so maybe, but it's certainly not a foregone conclusion imo. Than I also wonder if Oil would have a similar effect on Satetsu or not.

Additionally, while Gengetsu may have a tough time getting around Satetsu, between the Clam Genjutsu and Suika no Jutsu rendering poison useless, Sasori is going to have a tough time getting around Gengetsu's defenses. 

I'm not saying Gengetsu certainly wins, but it's more debatable than you might think


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> How is he not beating Gengetsu? What can the guy do? With no knowledge IC he thinks Sasori is under the clam Genjutsu when he's not and he proceeds to get poisoned right off the bat. In any case Sasori might be Gengetsu's WORST possible opponents seeing as I can't imagine Joki boi doing much since it's not like Sasori's body will be effected by the steam and if Gaara's sand was protecting them then Iron sand will be even better.


I don't consider the poison to be a factor since Gengetsu uses the water-element which would be enough to wash away any poisons he may encounter. Then there's also his hydrafication ability would also make it a problem for the poisons to work. Most of Sasori's arsenal relies on the fact that person has a normal blood flowing body and based on what we have seen from Kabuto, Suigetsu and Gengetsu.

The best Sasori can do is try to bait him and catch him off guard because even though he hasn't shown much, he's still can access another 3 elements (wind, earth and fire). Sasori's best offensive arsenal is Iron Sand but I don't see it doing anything against him, even Suigetsu (who is in no shape or form comparable to Gengetsu) survived a Bijuu Bomb. 



matty1991 said:


> You're right though he loses to Minato and Onoki everytime, in Onoki's case strictly because of Jinton. Tobirama can definitely beat Sasori more times than not, but I'm not one to think Tobirama outclasses him so much that it's a stomp whatsoever


Muu, Oonoki both have Jinton, which is the sole reason I put them above him, plus you know they can fly and that's a huge advantage too. Both Minato and Tobirama use Hiraishin, which would be easy enough to get out of a jam because Sasori's fastest attacks are nowhere near the speed of A which I know Minato could avoid. Tobirama also uses Hiraishin (not quite as adept as Minato, but I doubt it'd be hard to tell the difference for Sasori).


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> To give some perspective, I did a count, and people said Mu wins like 95-96 out of the fights, while Gengetsu wins like 65-70 or something, and Mu has more undecideds. That's a large gap for someone that is suppose to be relatively equal with Mu.



That may be more of a match-up issue. Mu had better hype and abilities than Gengetsu. It would be like Minato being forced to use Shiki Fujin against an inferior ninja that had the defense to tank the Rasengan indefinitely (possibly Kakuzu, Orochimaru, Gengetsu.)

Gengetsu's an upper Mid Kage IMO, which would be your Low Kage, as High Kage is evidently for Hashirama and Edo Minato, because they effortlessly stomp every other Kage, making their tier clear.​


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That may be more of a match-up issue. Mu had better hype and abilities than Gengetsu. It would be like Minato being forced to use Shiki Fujin against an inferior ninja that had the defense to tank the Rasengan indefinitely (possibly Kakuzu, Orochimaru, Gengetsu.)
> 
> Gengetsu's an upper Mid Kage IMO, which would be your Low Kage, as High Kage is evidently for Hashirama and Edo Minato, because they effortlessly stomp every other Kage, making their tier clear.​


To me this scene dispels the idea that Gengetsu was simply a bad match up for Mu and rather directly implies Gengetsu >= Mu:

This page


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2015)

Eh, he seems insecure about his power relevant to Mu there. And IIRC, Gengetsu wasn't sure if Mu died in their battle or not. Meaning Gengetsu probably died first, and Mu bled out afterward.

That, along with Mu just seeming smarter, more polished, and the frightened reaction from the Gokage when hearing he had returned... makes me think Gengetsu was a good match for him.

But we can agree to disagree. Gaara clearly pointed out that Gengetsu was no joke there.​


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Eh, he seems insecure about his power relevant to Mu there. And IIRC, Gengetsu wasn't sure if Mu died in their battle or not.​



I don't find Gengetsu's words convincing, but Gaara's reaction to them.



> Meaning Gengetsu probably died first, and Mu bled out afterward.


I find it more likely that Mu hit Mizukage with Jinton and than Jouki Boi took Mu out afterwards, but to me the distinction is meaningless anyway. They fought numerous times according to the Data-book so the battle could have easily gone anyway the wind blows, is what I believe is being portrayed.



> That, along with Mu just seeming smarter, more polished, and the frightened reaction from the Gokage when hearing he had returned... makes me think Gengetsu was a good match for him.


Well initially they were presented as equals. Than Mu got the more hype and preferential treatment, so I thought he was stronger, and that's where Kishi should have left it if that was his intent. Instead he has the scene strong implying that everyone just underestimated Gengetsu, and that Gengetsu is indeed >= Mu. Than the Data-book has them having fought countless times before which further suggests relative equality. 



> But we can agree to disagree. Gaara clearly pointed out that Gengetsu was no joke there.


It's not like if you put Mu over Gengetsu I'm going to say your wrong. Honestly I go back and forth over which is stronger myself. I only think there is an issue when someone is saying Mu is considerably stronger than Gengetsu.

Edit: Also found this

戦いの中、共に命を落とした
二代目水影。好敵手と認め、
その決着を望んでいるようだ。

The Second Mizukage, with whom Mū died together
in the midst of battle. It seems that he wanted to end
it with acknowledging him as a worthy rival.

It seems in the end Mu wanted Gengetsu to acknowledge him as a worthy rival. Which further supports Gengetsu >= Mu​


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2015)

Mu isn't considerably stronger than gengetsu, however, Mu is the shinobi that instilled fear into an entire alliance and forced Onoki (High Kage) to come to the battlefield.

That wasn't Gengetsu, that was Mu.

KCM Naruto had to intervene to defeat him- and don't say it's because Onoki & Gaara were weakened- because Mu is the reason Onoki was weakened. Even still, Mu managed to trick them in plain sight and escape with half of himself.

Overall, Mu is stronger, but it's not by much at all, at least that's my opinion.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Mu isn't considerably stronger than gengetsu, however, Mu is the shinobi that instilled fear into an entire alliance and forced Onoki (High Kage) to come to the battlefield..


As I said too strategoob, this was explained away by the Alliance underestimating Gengetsu, but in the end when Gengetsu called himself >= Mu, Gaara's reaction reflects the truth in those words. So does the fact that DBIV states how Gengetsu and Mu fought many times, before killing each other off, and the fact that Mu wanted Gengetsu to acknowledge him, rather than the other way around, also places Gengetsu as >= Mu.



> KCM Naruto had to intervene to defeat him- and don't say it's because Onoki & Gaara were weakened- because Mu is the reason Onoki was weakened. Even still, Mu managed to trick them in plain sight and escape with half of himself.


I'm not sure what this proves. I mean Gaara had a tremendous amount of advantages to deal with Gengetsu as well. 



> Overall, Mu is stronger, but it's not by much at all, at least that's my opinion.


I thought so too until I look at the Raw for Mizukage's Convo with Gaara and the Data-book stating how Mu wanted Gengetsu to acknowledge him. Now it seems like Gengetsu was the one who had the edge.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2015)

> As I said too strategoob, this was explained away by the Alliance underestimating Gengetsu, but in the end when Gengetsu called himself >= Mu, Gaara's reaction reflects the truth in those words. So does the fact that DBIV states how Gengetsu and Mu fought many times, before killing each other off, and the fact that Mu wanted Gengetsu to acknowledge him, rather than the other way around, also places Gengetsu as >= Mu.


Sasuke praised Itachi his entire life, even while he was hagoromo's demigod after Kaguya. What is your point?

2nd Mizukage didn't raise the eyebrow of Onoki, who had fought him in the past, and didn't force him to the battlefield- Mu did.

Match-up wise Mu smokes him with Jinton most of the time at start battle, so that's a losing argument as well. 



> I'm not sure what this proves. I mean Gaara had a tremendous amount of advantages to deal with Gengetsu as well.


Onoki knew everything about Mu down to the way he thought, and the result was KCM Naruto saving them both from his Jinton.

If anything they had a greater advantage against Mu considering they could find him even while invisible, and Mu did not have a oily body to slip out of sand grabs- and both of them could fly just like Mu. 

Gengetsu is a far better match up against Gaara & Onoki than Mu is. 



> I thought so too until I look at the Raw for Mizukage's Convo with Gaara and the Data-book stating how Mu wanted Gengetsu to acknowledge him. Now it seems like Gengetsu was the one who had the edge.


I disagree, Gai sought Kakashi's acknowledgement and yet he was always stronger than him. 

The same can be said of Lee seeking Neji's acknowledgement even after he mastered the 5th Gate. 

Relations between characters mean nothing in terms of power scale.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 22, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sasuke praised Itachi his entire life, even while he was hagoromo's demigod after Kaguya. What is your point?


I'm sorry, but I don't think these two things are comparable. Sasuke showing respect for his elder brother even after surpassing him in strength, is simply not the same imo as Mu fighting Gengetsu many times and in their final duel wishing for Gengetsu to finally acknowledge him as a worthy rival, and than them both mutually Koing each other.



> 2nd Mizukage didn't raise the eyebrow of Onoki, who had fought him in the past,


Onoki took him seriously enough to join Gaara in battle against him. Use Jinton right at the start. And he was sweating bullets when Gengetsu pulled out Jouki Boi, and even remarks how Jouki Boi was a threat to Mu in the past. So I don't see that way.



> and didn't force him to the battlefield- Mu did.


Tsunade decided Onoki had to face Mu. Onoki did not say anything to the effect of Mu > Gengetsu, in-fact like I highlighted above the only comparison he drew between them was that Jouki Boi was a major threat to Mu.



> Match-up wise Mu smokes him with Jinton most of the time at start battle, so that's a losing argument as well.


We literally know that's not true, considering they fought many times in the past and none of the battles resulted in Gengetsu being smoked by Jinton before he could do anything.



> Onoki knew everything about Mu down to the way he thought, and the result was KCM Naruto saving them both from his Jinton.
> 
> If anything they had a greater advantage against Mu considering they could find him even while invisible, and Mu did not have a oily body to slip out of sand grabs- and both of them could fly just like Mu.
> 
> Gengetsu is a far better match up against Gaara than Mu is


Gaara is a good match up against both Mu and Gengetsu because his Sand detection shuts down their Invis and Clam Genjutsu respectively. Gengetsu's Suika no Jutsu didn't matter because Gaara overwhelmed it wit sheer quantity of Sand, which had had the advantage of having access to large preexisting source off. He still would have lost to Jouki Boi just like he would have lost to Mu's Jinton, if not for the fact that his father's Gold Dust just happened to be on the battlefield. 



> I disagree, Gai sought Kakashi's acknowledgement and yet he was always stronger than him.


Gai and Kakashi competed in Games. They did not fight life or death battles, where Gai was trying to be acknowledge, which ultimately culminated in them killing each other. Again much different situations.



> Relations between characters mean nothing in terms of power scale.


Sorry, but I disagree. If Mu was stronger than Gengetsu he would have defeated him in one of their many battles, and his sole goal wouldn't be Gengetsu acknowledging him as a worthy rival, nor would he likely have died in a mutual KO with Mu. Nor do I understand why Kishi would make a point of having that scene with Gaara and Gengetsu, if he didn't want readers to take away Gengetsu >= Mu.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> To me this scene dispels the idea that Gengetsu was simply a bad match up for Mu and rather directly implies Gengetsu >= Mu:
> 
> S/T barrier



The biggest difference between the two is that Jinton is a completely indefensible jutsu, short of having some form of chakra absorption technique handy. 

Well that and Muu did kill him too.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

gengetsu is to Mu what madara is to hashirama
they fought countless battles but the clear superior on paper is well obvious


----------



## Turrin (Jul 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The biggest difference between the two is that Jinton is a completely indefensible jutsu, short of having some form of chakra absorption technique handy.


Jouki Boi is incredibly powerful as well and the Clam Genjutsu is > Mu's Invisibility. Gengetsu's Suika no Jutsu also makes him harder to take down than Mu,

Also Jinton can be defended by various Jutsu.



> Well that and Muu did kill him too.


After fighting Gengetsu many times w/o a victor, when trying his hardest to prove himself as a worthy rival to Gengetsu, and Gengetsu killed him as well.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 22, 2015)

What are these "various jutsu" that can defend against Jinton?


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Jouki Boi is incredibly powerful as well and the Clam Genjutsu is > Mu's Invisibility. Gengetsu's Suika no Jutsu also makes him harder to take down than Mu,
> 
> Also Jinton can be defended by various Jutsu.
> 
> ...



No one says Gengetsu's jutsu aren't powerful, Muu's is just indefensible. The only thing we've seen defend against it was either using another Jinton to cancel it out or absorbing it via Preta Path.

Gengetsu doesn't have these options available to him.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> No one says Gengetsu's jutsu aren't powerful, Muu's is just indefensible. The only thing we've seen defend against it was either using another Jinton to cancel it out or absorbing it via Preta Path.
> .


So it's not indefensible then 



> Gengetsu doesn't have these options available to him


He obviously didn't need them because he fought Mu multiple times and only died in their final struggle.



Rocky said:


> What are these "various jutsu" that can defend against Jinton?


Madara defend against it with both HG-Realm and P-Susano'o
Mu defended against it with his own Jinton and Invisibility
Gengetsu obviously defended against it when he fought Mu multiple times in the past, so likely Clam Genjutsu
All the Jutsu that defend against the more OP Juubi Jin version can defend against it

Than we have the maybe's like TBB, Samehada, Daikodan, High end Mokuton Jutsu, Multi elemental combinations, Than we have characters that may be able to avoid it with speed or other avoidance techniques. And Characters that could preempt it while it's charging.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So it's not indefensible then
> 
> He obviously didn't need them because he fought Mu multiple times and only died in their final struggle.



Based on feats, the best thing Gengetsu can do is use the clam as a means of delaying the inevitable whereas Muu can slide up into the air and just jinton the battlefield.

Reality is we'll never know the kind of power they had at this point, if it wasn't shown I'm not going to imagine about it because they were given such little panel time.

Based on feats thus far, Muu > Gengetsu and the only reason for that is because of Jinton.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Based on feats, the best thing Gengetsu can do is use the clam as a means of delaying the inevitable whereas Muu can slide up into the air and just jinton the battlefield.
> 
> Reality is we'll never know the kind of power they had at this point, if it wasn't shown I'm not going to imagine about it because they were given such little panel time.


The reality is that we do know Gengetsu can avoid being easily dealt with by Jinton because he survived fighting Mu many times. 

And Jinton the battlefield, when has Mu shown Jinton that large?



> Based on feats thus far, Muu > Gengetsu and the only reason for that is because of Jinton.


Base on your opinion of feats, you place him above Gengetsu. I place Gengetsu >= Mu, for the same reason, but than I have the manga/DB supporting my opinion, while you do not.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The reality is that we do know Gengetsu can avoid being easily dealt with by Jinton because he survived fighting Mu many times.
> 
> And Jinton the battlefield, when has Mu shown Jinton that large?



The one Oonoki canceled out, if he hadn't, it would have wiped out everyone, even Muu himself told him that numbers don't matter against a Jinton user. Honestly, with his flight and invisibility this is a difference maker for him.



Turrin said:


> Base on your opinion of feats, you place him above Gengetsu. I place Gengetsu >= Mu, for the same reason, but than I have the *manga*/DB supporting my opinion, while you do not.


Where do you think my feats come from? Gengetsu hasn't displayed anything astonishing to the point where it would be a threat to Muu. The best scenario that can be worked out is the one I explained above with the delaying tactic. 

He really never showed much else.


----------



## The Undying (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Edit: Also found this
> 
> 戦いの中、共に命を落とした
> 二代目水影。好敵手と認め、
> ...



I don't see how Gengetsu wanting "to end it with acknowledging [Muu] as a worthy rival" means that Muu wanted to be acknowledged by Gengetsu, but even if he _did_ want that, I'm not sure how that would lead you to the conclusion that Gengetsu might be the stronger of the two. Can you explain?


----------



## Trojan (Jul 23, 2015)

> 1. Hashirama
> 2. Minato [Edo]
> 3. Tobirama [Edo]
> 4. Onoki
> ...




Competitors:


> 1. Nagato




. Hashirama - Nagato loses.
. Minato [Edo] - Nagato loses.
. Tobirama [Edo] - Nagato wins. 
. Onoki - Nagato wins. 
. Mu - Nagato wins. 
. Gengetsu - Nagato wins. 
. Sandaime-Raikage - Nagato wins. 
. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - Nagato wins. 
. Hiruzen [Edo]- - Nagato wins. 
. Ei- Nagato wins. 
. Rasa - Nagato wins. 
. Gaara [War Arc] - Nagato wins. 
. Mei - Nagato wins. 
. Minato [Living] - It can go either way I suppose. 
. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Nagato wins. 

Can win 12 or 13. 



> 2. Gai [6th and 7th Gate only]




1. Hashirama - Gai loses 
2. Minato [Edo]  Gai loses 
3. Tobirama [Edo]  Gai loses 
4. Onoki-  Gai loses 
5. Mu -  Gai loses 
6. Gengetsu -  Gai loses 
7. Sandaime-Raikage -  Gai loses 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] -  Gai loses 
9. Hiruzen [Edo]-  Gai loses 
10. Ei-  Gai loses 
11. Rasa - Gai wins
12. Gaara [War Arc]-  Gai loses 
13. Mei-  Gai wins
14. Minato [Living] -  Gai loses 
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] -  Gai loses 

Can win against 2 Kages. Although in my case it depends if she uses her mist first. It took Kakashi
and his team to get over Zabuza's mist jutsu.




> 3. Danzo [Koto Charged]


I don't feel like speculating about Koto when I feel that we did not see enough or a direct fight for it.
If we assumed it's as hax as it seems, then only Edo Minato would win because of Kurama. 



> 4. Killer-B




1. Hashirama - Killer B loses
2. Minato [Edo] - Killer B loses
3. Tobirama [Edo]- Killer B wins. 
4. Onoki - It can go either way?. 
5. Mu - It can go either way?
6. Gengetsu - - Killer B wins. 
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Killer B loses
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - - Killer B wins. 
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - - Killer B wins. 
10. Ei- - Killer B wins. 
11. Rasa- Killer B wins. 
12. Gaara [War Arc]- Killer B wins. 
13. Mei - Killer B wins. 
14. Minato [Living] - Killer B loses
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Killer B wins. 

he wins 9 to 11 I suppose. 



> 5. Kisame [W/ Bijuu Chakra]




1. Hashirama - Kisame loses. 
2. Minato [Edo]  - Kisame loses. 
3. Tobirama [Edo] 
4. Onoki  - Kisame loses. 
5. Mu  - Kisame loses. 
6. Gengetsu - It can go either way?
7. Sandaime-Raikage  - Kisame loses. 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]
9. Hiruzen [Edo] Kisame wins. 
10. Ei  - Kisame loses. 
11. Rasa - it can go either way?
12. Gaara [War Arc] Kisame wins. 
13. Mei Kisame wins. 
14. Minato [Living]  - Kisame loses. 
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] Kisame wins. 

Ok, I am not sure how would Tobirama do against Kisame here, and I don't know if he gets ET or not.
in term of Gengetsu, I think that depends if he can use Kisame's water jutsu to his advantage like Suigetsu did with the lake's water.

Same with Rasa. His Golde dust should work against Kisame's massive water attack.  




> 6. SM-Jiraiya





1. Hashirama - Jiraiya loses. 
2. Minato [Edo]  - Jiraiya loses.
3. Tobirama [Edo]- Jiraiya wins. 
4. Onoki  Jiraiya wins. 
5. Mu  Jiraiya wins. 
6. Gengetsu  Jiraiya wins. 
7. Sandaime-Raikage   Jiraiya wins. 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo]
9. Hiruzen [Edo]  Jiraiya wins. 
10. Ei  Jiraiya wins. 
11. Rasa  Jiraiya wins. 
12. Gaara [War Arc]  Jiraiya wins. 
13. Mei  Jiraiya wins. 
14. Minato [Living]  - Jiraiya loses.
15. Gaara [Start of Part II]-  Jiraiya wins. 




> 7. Itachi




1. Hashirama - itachi loses. 
2. Minato [Edo] - - itachi loses. 
3. Tobirama [Edo] - itachi loses. 
4. Onoki - it can go either way
5. Mu - either way depends if he can see Mu or not.
6. Gengetsu - depends if he can see through the genjutsu or not
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Itachi loses. 
8. Tsunade [War Arc Byakugo] - a tie 
9. Hiruzen [Edo] - - itachi wins
10. Ei - itachi loses more times than not. 
11. Rasa - itachi wins
12. Gaara [War Arc] - itachi loses. 
13. Mei - - itachi wins more times than not. 
14. Minato [Living] - itachi loses. 
15. Gaara [Start of Part II] - Itachi wins. 


----

felt bored. I might or might not do the others. There are too much of them.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The one Oonoki canceled out, if he hadn't, it would have wiped out everyone, even Muu himself told him that numbers don't matter against a Jinton user. Honestly, with his flight and invisibility this is a difference maker for him.
> /QUOTE]
> I'm not sure what this means outside of no one in the alliance being as strong as Mu and Gengetsu.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Undying (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Mu wanted to end by getting Gengetsu to acknowledge him. That on top of Gengetsu suggesting to garaa that he was stronger than Mu and Garaa's reaction seemingly agreeing makes me think Gengetsu >= Mu.



_Did_ Muu want Gengetsu to acknowledge him? Your use of "he" and "him" in the second sentence of your translation isn't really clear in regards to who is who. 

That's a bit of a stretch. Gaara concurred with the idea that Gengetsu was _strong_, he never specifically agreed with the sentiment that Gengetsu was a superior fighter to Muu. Let's be honest, Gengetsu's whole declaration about being stronger was clearly played up in a humorous gag context. It's something Gengetsu himself didn't seem totally sure of.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> but rusty tsunade never held that title. it was only after her fight with orochimaru that she became kage
> 
> old hiruzen also had retired so i dont see why he would be included
> 
> also he is too weak to be low kage level





DaVizWiz said:


> Too weak to seal away Orochimaru's Edo Tensei & take his arms?
> 
> No, the manga clearly depicted Geezer Hiruzen as Kage level.
> 
> Tsunade was offered the position prior to battling Orochimaru, thus Rusty Tsunade would've been acceptable for Hokage as far as the manga is depicting.



IMO anyone considered for kageship is in the kage class.  When everyone wanted to elect Kakashi, he was kage caliber.


----------



## ARGUS (Jul 23, 2015)

1. Nagato - Loses to only Hashirama and Edo Minato, Rank High [Mid] Kage

2. Gai [6th and 7th Gate only] - only loses to Hashi, Minato, Tobirama and Third Raikage, 
Rank High [Low] Kage

3. Danzo [Koto Charged] - with KA he beats them all except edo minato, without iit, he loses to Hashi, Minato (both), Tobirama, Muu, Third Raikage, and Ay 

4. Killer-B - only loses to Hashirama and edo minato, Rank High [Mid] Kage 

5. Kisame [W/ Bijuu Chakra] - only loses to Hashirama, Edo Minato & Tobirama, and Muu, Rank High [Low] Kage 

6. SM-Jiraiya - loses to Hashirama, Minato (both), Tobirama, Third Raikage and possibly Ay 
Rank High [Low] Kage or Mid [High] Kage

7. Itachi - loses to Hashirama, Minato and Tobirama, Rank High [Low] Kage

8. Sasori - loses to hashirama, minato, tobirama, mmuu, gengetsu, onoki, third raikage, edo hiruzen, gaara, ay, Rank Low [High] Kage 

9. Kakashi [War-Arc, but no double Sharingan] - loses to hashirama minaoto, tobirama, and ay, 
Rank High [Low] Kage 

10. Kakuzu - loses to hashi, minato, tobirama, muu, third raikage, gengetsu, onoki, ay, and gaara
Rank Mid [Mid] Kage 

11. Deidara - loses too hashi, minato, tobirama, muu, onoki, third raikage, and ay
Rank Mid [Mid] Kage 

12. Darui - loses to all of them, bar possibly rasa and early gaara

13. Choji - loses to all of them 

14. Haishi - loses to all of them, bar tsunade, early gaara, rasa, mei and onoki. Rank Low [High] Kage 

15. Chiyo - loses to  all of them

16. Kinkaku and Ginkaku - beats tobirama (canon), rasa, tsunade, mei, gengetsu and early gaara, Rank Mid [Low] Kage 

17. Konan - beats rasa, and early gaara rank Low[Low] Kage


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

The Undying said:


> _Did_ Muu want Gengetsu to acknowledge him? Your use of "he" and "him" in the second sentence of your translation isn't really clear in regards to who is who.


It's not my translation. It's steel's translation,but I concur with what he got. Also I probably should have made this clear, but it's from Mu's entry in DBIV about what his favorite thing is. So when it says he, it's referring to Mu. Basically what it says is that Mu wanted to settle their final battle with Gengetsu acknowledging him as a worthy rival.



> That's a bit of a stretch. Gaara concurred with the idea that Gengetsu was strong, he never specifically agreed with the sentiment that Gengetsu was a superior fighter to Muu. Let's be honest, Gengetsu's whole declaration about being stronger was clearly played up in a humorous gag context. It's something Gengetsu himself didn't seem totally sure of.


This is the problem with an inconsistent translation. If you read the Raw, it's clear that Gaara by saying Genjutsu is "strong" is very likely agreeing with Gengetsu's statement. Why? Because in the raw Text Gengetsu's whole speech leading up to that is about how general tactics dictate that you go after the strong one first. He than says how the alliance assumed Mu as the strong one, but than says in reality he is the strong one and they should have gone after him. So when Gaara gives forelorn face and says he shouldn't have judged a book by it's cover and Gengetsu is indeed strong, his reaction in context with the rest of the scene, comes off as him admitting that the alliance made a mistake targeting Mu first.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2015)

I think that translation might have it backwards. All their interactions in the manga makes it seem like Gengetsu is the one that craves acknowledgement for his strength from both Mu, and everybody else.​


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I think that translation might have it backwards. All their interactions in the manga makes it seem like Gengetsu is the one that craves acknowledgement for his strength from both Mu, and everybody else.​


It doesn't.


----------



## The Undying (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It's not my translation. It's steel's translation,but I concur with what he got. Also I probably should have made this clear, but it's from Mu's entry in DBIV about what his favorite thing is. So when it says he, it's referring to Mu. Basically what it says is that Mu wanted to settle their final battle with Gengetsu acknowledging him as a worthy rival.



"It seems that he wanted to end it with acknowledging him as a worthy rival" could be interpreted several ways. It could, for example, be "It seems that [Muu] wanted to end it with acknowledging [Gengetsu] as a worthy rival" and that would of course still be consistent with Muu's _favorite thing_ since he's acknowledging Gengetsu as a worthy rival.

Is there any way of getting Steel's take on this?



Turrin said:


> If you read the Raw, it's clear that Gaara by saying Genjutsu is "strong" is very likely agreeing with Gengetsu's statement.



But the only thing that the raw (and context) makes clear is Gaara admitting that he underestimated Gengetsu. Beyond the acknowledgment that Gengetsu is a serious threat, Gaara doesn't seem remotely interested in comparing the two rivals.

Honestly, I don't know why you're so convinced that the raw and databook supports your notion of Gengetsu having the edge over Muu. Your whole argument sounds like a massive leap to me because you're clearly ignoring Gengetsu's underlying tone of insecurity whenever he declares his superiority. If you look at the instances in which they're compared to each other every other time in the manga, they're spoken of as being on equal terms _without_ any kind of indication as to which one edges out.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

The Undying said:


> "It seems that he wanted to end it with acknowledging him as a worthy rival" could be interpreted several ways. It could, for example, be "It seems that [Muu] wanted to end it with acknowledging [Gengetsu] as a worthy rival" and that would of course still be consistent with Muu's _favorite thing_ since he's acknowledging Gengetsu as a worthy rival.


All I can say is from my reading of the Raw it is not open to interpretation. Mu wanted Gengetsu to acknowledge him, no ifs ands or buts about it.



> Is there any way of getting Steel's take on this?


You could try VM/PM him, but I don't see him as very active anymore.



> But the only thing that the raw (and context) makes clear is Gaara admitting that he underestimated Gengetsu. Beyond the acknowledgment that Gengetsu is a serious threat, Gaara doesn't seem remotely interested in comparing the two rivals.


Can you read the Raws? Because i'm not getting that at all from them or Gaara's reaction. Or see the point of even including that scene in their, if it was not to highlight Gengetsu >= Mu.



> Honestly, I don't know why you're so convinced that the raw and databook supports your notion of Gengetsu having the edge over Muu. Your whole argument sounds like a massive leap to me because you're clearly ignoring Gengetsu's underlying tone of insecurity whenever he declares his superiority. If you look at the instances in which they're compared to each other every other time in the manga, they're spoken of as being on equal terms without any kind of indication as to which one edges out.


I said Gengetsu > *or* = to Mu. As in ether they are equals or Gengetsu has the edge. I say this because besides the fact that they fought many times and killed each other off, and were largely presented as equals, the only info we have that could possibly grant one an edge sides with Gengetsu, rather than Mu. 

So i'm not confident that Gengetsu is > Mu. I'm confident that Gengetsu is ether > *or* = to Mu. Or to put it another way, i'm confident that Mu is not > Gengetsu.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 23, 2015)

Feats grant Mu the advantage, that's the info we have Turrin. 

Hype and Databook takes a backseat to in-battle feats, there is never an exception as far as I'm concerned.

Gaara's Reaction & Databook "desire to be acknowledged" < Feats

Mu is stronger, it was displayed on open panel.

If you disagree, I'll go ahead and start a thread Mu vs. Gengetsu and we'll use feats to determine who's stronger


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Feats grant Mu the advantage, that's the info we have Turrin.


No your opinion is that Mu's feats are better. My opinion is that Gengetsu's feats are >= Mu's. 



> Hype and Databook takes a backseat to in-battle feats, there is never an exception as far as I'm concerned


Cool and as far as i'm concerned that's not the case. Statements are just as important to consider as Feats. Especially when talking about characters who had little panel time to show off their arsenals. 



> Gaara's Reaction & Databook "desire to be acknowledged" < Feats






> If you disagree, I'll go ahead and start a thread Mu vs. Gengetsu and we'll use feats to determine who's stronger


All this will prove is how far from author's intent you and others can stray


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 23, 2015)

The author's intent is obvious, it was drawn in their battle features. Gaara's facial expression and dialogue flew into the shitter the moment Mu was lining up to obliterate both him and Onoki. 

Mu's are simply better, which is why most people think Mu wins more battles in this fanfiction thread you created.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 23, 2015)

I also think Mu is stronger. Mizukage seems like a guy who just talks alot.

There is a saying.. barking dogs never bite.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> The author's intent is obvious, it was drawn in their battle features.


If the author says that two characters fought each other many times in the past and eventually killed each other off ending their rivalry in a draw. You arguing otherwise based on feats, is going against the author's intent.



> Mu's are simply better, which is why most people think Mu wins more battles in this fanfiction thread you created.


Cool and that's your opinion, not mine.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I'm not sure what this means outside of no one in the alliance being as strong as Mu and Gengetsu.


What would happen to Gengetsu if he was hit with Jinton?



Turrin said:


> And I disagree. I think Gengetsu's feats are >= Mu


In your fanfic, sure


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> What would happen to Gengetsu if he was hit with Jinton?


Same thing that would happen to Mu if he was hit by Jouki Boi.



> In  your Kishimoto's fanfic the Naruto Manga, sure


Edited for accuracy 

But seriously though, your refusal to accept that someone holds a different opinion of the feats than you do, is not my problem.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2015)

> All I can say is from my reading of the Raw it is not open to interpretation.



Turrin's interpretations are not open to interpretation.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Turrin's interpretations are not open to interpretation.


If I read a Japanese line that say, "This apple is red" and people who have no ability to read Japanese are trying to argue that it says the apple is Yellow. That's not a matter of interpretation, that's someone making shit up and the person should not be able to contest my actual reading of the Raw text based on that. Now if someone else who can read Japanese, says well actually the line would normally be read as the "this apple is red", but because X reason in this unconventional example it could be read as This apple is yellow, than it becomes open to interpretation. So basically what i'm saying is, that from my understanding of the Japanese language the line is not open to interpretation and is very straight forwardly saying that, Mu wanted Gengetsu to acknowledge him, however I do not profess to be a master linguist, so there is always a chance there is something I could not be aware of. 

But I digress because in reality this is just another butthurt troll coming out of the wood work with personal attacks lieu of a real argument


----------



## thechickensage (Jul 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Mizukage seems like a guy who just talks alot.
> 
> There is a saying.. barking dogs never bite.



What about Naruto?  He barks the loudest, most frequently, and most persistently...


----------



## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> What about Naruto?  He barks the loudest, most frequently, and most persistently...


Yah Gengetsu is clearly the Naruto to Mu's Sasuke


----------



## Matty (Jul 23, 2015)

They're equals. It's really simple. The fact that they had fought so many times before and then ended up killing each other is proof of that. HYPOTHETICALLY Mu might have a better arsenal but he obviously wasn't skilled enough to use it to it's potential if he kept drawing with Gengetsu. 

That's just the reality of it, I would imagine it's fanfic if you think anything differently than what Kishi wrote, since you know.....he wrote it


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2015)

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f27SorMvn5U*

I'd be amazed at your attacks on my character if it wasn't standard fair.  Suffice to say you're suffering Itachi level delusions if you believe I care one iota about the placement of these two characters.

I'll highlight what's subjective in red, and objective in green in this post.  I'll also break it down by argumentative structure.



> This is the problem with an inconsistent translation. *-A supposition that differing opinions are the result of inconsistent translation.*
> 
> If you read the Raw, it's clear that Gaara by saying Genjutsu is "strong" is very likely agreeing with Gengetsu's statement. -*Thesis statement*
> 
> ...



This is an interpretation of what was depicted in the manga, supported with depictions from the manga.  Your interpretation.  Let me highlight the tell-tale words for you.  Your words.

"*... is very likely...*"

"his reaction... *comes off as* him admitting"

These conjunctions denote interpretative analysis.  

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone else's interpretation is that Trollkage came off as butthurt over being ignored, and wanted to be acknowledged by the alliance as stronger than his rival/opponent/fellow kage/guy without eyebrows.  Hence, they find it odd that Muu, who received acknowledgement, would be craving it over the guy who made a point about how he didn't receive acknowledgement.


The most baffling thing is that you're WWE RAW _objective description_ doesn't differ one iota from how anyone else felt it went.  

"_Gengetsu's whole speech leading up to that is about how general tactics dictate that you go after the strong one first. He than says how the alliance assumed Mu as the strong one, but than says in reality he is the strong one and they should have gone after him._"

We all think Gengetsu gave that speech, and we all think that's how it went.

"_Gaara gives forelorn face and says he shouldn't have judged a book by it's cover and Gengetsu is indeed strong_"

We all think Gaara said and did this.

There's no translation bonus applicable to looking at the pictures and faces themselves, so you don't have that over anyone.

They disagree that this evidence supports the portrayal of Muu being the one who seeks acknowledgement, and not Gengetsu.  Your assertion that it does and that people's factual knowledge of the scene are off because they don't speak Japanese in What really doesn't follow at all from this evidence, as your argument is that Gengetsu is strong, and the evidence you used didn't differ from the evidence and recounting everyone else had from that scene, save for the parts in red where asserted your interpretations and conclusion.  

But that's just my opinion, man!  

P.S.  I'll only be responding to voters from this point forward.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2015)

Itachi-level anything means the _greatest_ level. 

Of delusion, in this case.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 24, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'd be amazed at your attacks on my character if it wasn't standard fair.


Since it's always you that start with personal attacks and trolling, I have no sympathy for you



> I'll highlight what's subjective in red, and objective in green in this post. I'll also break it down by argumentative structure.


POW your literally cracking me up 



> These conjunctions denote interpretative analysis.


I never said it wasn't   

Now this is when you whine to me, "but but Turrin you said" _ "All I can say is from my reading of the Raw it is not open to interpretation."_

And yes I did say that, about the Data-book entry, *not* Gaara and Gengetsu's speech 

Two totally different subjects.



> Everyone else's interpretation is that Trollkage came off as butthurt over being ignored, and wanted to be acknowledged by the alliance as stronger than his rival/opponent/fellow kage/guy without eyebrows.


By everyone else interpretation you mean about 6 [give or take a little] fans on forum of hundreds that only embodies a small fraction of the english speaking fandom, which is only a part of the world wide fandom.

Sure you don't mean, some people's interpretation.



> Hence, they find it odd that Muu, who received acknowledgement, would be craving it over the guy who made a point about how he didn't receive acknowledgement.


I find it odd that people feel they can judge the exact nature of Mu and Gengetsu's relationship off of their interpretation of a single comment. But that's just me.



> They disagree that this evidence supports the portrayal of Muu being the one who seeks acknowledgement, and not Gengetsu. Your assertion that it does and that people's factual knowledge of the scene are off because they don't speak Japanese in What really doesn't follow at all from this evidence, as your argument is that Gengetsu is strong, and the evidence you used didn't differ from the evidence and recounting everyone else had from that scene, save for the parts in red where asserted your interpretations and conclusion.



Anyway to clarify:

Gengetsu, "But no matter what way you look on me i'm the stronggg one!? Right? "While he can be looked on as a dried up mummy about to die" "Wasn't he?"

Gaara, "Without a doubt...I know well that appearance don't matter..."

Gaara, "You are strong"

The important part here is that Gengetsu is saying that no matter appearances he's the strong one. To which Gara responds with "確かに", tashikani, means doubtless or certainly, and in this context as a response to Gengetsu's questions, the usage of 確かに as Gaara's response, strongly implies that Gaara is agreeing with everything Mu said. So it's basically Gaara saying, "Without a doubt you are correct". 

The other thing to keep in mind is that Gengetsu keeps referring to himself and Mu as the strong one. So when Gaara says Gengetsu is strong, because of the word play there, that also likely implies that Gaara is agreeing that Gengetsu is stronger than Mu. This is tough to explain to someone who doesn't read Japanese tho. So take it as you will.

But again I did not say it was confirmed that's your straw-man, I said the raw-text and context of that scene makes it likely. Intentionally using the word "likely", instead off confirmed, for a reason.



> But that's just my opinion, man!


And my opinion is that instead of immediately resorting to personal attacks and trollish stuff, you could have probably just asked me to clarify.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 24, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> What about Naruto?  He barks the loudest, most frequently, and most persistently...


He is the main character. That might be the reason why he can get away with shit most others can't.

Also remember part 1 where they fought to death. Naruto barked and barked and lost.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He is the main character. That might be the reason why he can get away with shit most others can't.
> 
> Also remember part 1 where they fought to death. Naruto barked and barked and lost.



More often than not the goofy rival is >= to the more calm and calculating rival in this manga

Naruto >= Sasuke
Gai > Kakashi
Hashirama > Madara
Jiraiya > Orochimaru
Gengetsu >= Mu


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Same thing that would happen to Mu if he was hit by Jouki Boi.


Difference is Muu can stay out of his range, Gengetsu cannot and no matter how you slice it, that's always going to be the truth.

Muu > Gengetsu.



Turrin said:


> But seriously though, your refusal to accept that someone holds a different opinion of the feats than you do, is not my problem.


Great technique, did you learn in that college? 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Turrin's interpretations are not open to interpretation.


Yeah, I couldn't have said it better. 


Turrin said:


> If I read a Japanese line that say, "This apple is red" and people who have no ability to read Japanese are trying to argue that it says the apple is Yellow.* That's not a matter of interpretation*, that's someone making shit up and the person should not be able to contest my actual reading of the Raw text based on that. Now if someone else who can read Japanese, says well actually the line would normally be read as the "this apple is red", but because X reason in this unconventional example it could be read as This apple is yellow, than it becomes open to interpretation. So basically what i'm saying is, that *from my understanding of the Japanese language* the line is not open to interpretation and is very straight forwardly saying that, Mu wanted Gengetsu to acknowledge him, however I do not profess to be a master linguist, so there is always a chance there is something I could not be aware of.
> 
> *But I digress because in reality this is just another butthurt troll coming out of the wood work with personal attacks lieu of a real argument *



The bold is what I take issue with, because you're understanding is lacking. The difference is you wouldn't understand Japanese culture, tradition and the writing system like an actual Japanese person would. 

Have you lived there? 
Have you even been there? 
What are your qualifications as a translator (outside of the 2 semesters you did in undergrad)?

The best part about this is I can post a viz-translated page and it'll still be wrong because you can read raw. I mean, it's not like the translation team used the page for a reference at all [/sarcasm]

But I digress, you just want to stay on that high horse and speak to us in the condescending tones that you are already used to.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> More often than not the goofy rival is >= to the more calm and calculating rival in this manga
> 
> Naruto >= Sasuke
> Gai > Kakashi
> ...



Yeah thats actually true. 
And they ended up killing each other, so they can't be far off from one another(unless one of them used a suicide jutsu which we know they didn't). 
I guess my problem is that I find it hard to believe that Mizukage's arsenal can match Jinton. His genjutsu is neat but Joki Boi, his real trump card, didn't seem that impressive tbh.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 24, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Difference is Muu can stay out of his range, Gengetsu cannot and no matter how you slice it, that's always going to be the truth.
> 
> Muu > Gengetsu.


I find it amazing that despite the fact that Gengetsu can't hit Mu, he somehow managed to kill Mu 



> Great technique, did you learn in that college?


It requires a technique to know the difference between Objectivity and Subjectivity?



> The bold is what I take issue with, because you're understanding is lacking. The difference is you wouldn't understand Japanese culture, tradition and the writing system like an actual Japanese person would.
> 
> Have you lived there?
> Have you even been there?


I sincerely doubt that all the translators that have worked on Naruto throughout the years, have lived in Japan for a long period of time studying and fully immersing themselves in their culture, to the point where they understand all of the cultural and traditional nuances of the Japanese lanaguage . So if that's your argument for what the necessary qualifications of a good translator are, than likely most of the translations you've been reading, including the ones from Viz, do not fit that criteria. So to hold me to that criteria, is silly and quite frankly ridiculous, but if that is what you want to do than fine, in that case every time you present a translations of a statement I will ask you to provide a detailed background on that translator, indicating that they have indeed spent a massive amount of time in Japan studying and absorbing these nuances, as otherwise I will dismiss any point your trying to make because there always could be one of these cultural nuances in the text that the translator wouldn't otherwise be aware of w/o spending a huge amount of time studying abroad that completely changes it's meaning.



> What are you qualifications as a translator (outside of the 2 semesters you did in undergrad)?


Having studied Japanese, having lived with a Japanese roomate for years, having done translations on this forum now for almost a year, having discussed and learned from other translators on the forums for years. Now what qualifies you to be talking about the subject of translations and the japanese language again?

But the bottom line is nobody is forcing you to use my translations or agree with me. However I believe it is very much my right as someone who has knowledge of the language to base my conclusions on what I read from the Raw-Text, unless someone more qualified explains why what i'm getting is incorrect. And no your interpretation of the Viz text, is not the same as a Viz translator explaining why he/she added or changed words and whether it was just to make the text flow better or to capture the meaning better. No one more than myself would enjoy having an official translator here to critique my translations and explain why they would translate things differently or the same, because it would be extremely interesting for me [or if ShounenSuki came back  ]

But if that happened, I assure you, you'd than suddenly say well this Viz translator isn't as good as this one. Or Shouenensuki isn't as good as the Viz. Or insert whatever reasons you can come up with to demonize people who are merely trying to share their knowledge of the language with the forum.



> The best part about this is I can post a viz-translated page and it'll still be wrong because you can read raw. I mean, it's not like the translation team used the page for a reference at all


It depends on the situation. I.E. why don't you give examples instead of running your mouth.



> But I digress, you just want to stay on that high horse and speak to us in the condescending tones that you are already used to


Your claims of me condescending to everyone can be disproven by the fact that literally only a post ago I admitted that another poster did a much better job of explaining something than I myself have been doing. 

I condescend to people who present trollish argument that lack substance and credibility. Such as your argument have become as of late in your lust, to try and prove me wrong about something, simply because you are still butthurt for whatever reason or another. Or to put it another way If you present me arguments that fall along the lines of the author is wrong about his own manga because of my subjective interpretation of feats, I tend to condescend to you, because there is no way not to, the argument is just that ridiculously poor.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah thats actually true.
> And they ended up killing each other, so they can't be far off from one another(unless one of them used a suicide jutsu which we know they didn't).
> I guess my problem is that I find it hard to believe that Mizukage's arsenal can match Jinton. His genjutsu is neat but Joki Boi, his real trump card, didn't seem that impressive tbh.


The way I look at is Jinton is very strong attack raw-power wise, but it's also one of the most very linear and straight-forward attack. Jouki Boi has less raw-power, but it's one of the most tricky and unpredictable attacks we've seen, in the sense that it can literally fight an entire match autonomously of the caster. So they excel at different things.

As far as being unimpressive goes, I can't disagree more. Jouki Boi was very impressive, it's speed was great enough that Gaara's Sand couldn't keep up which is quite the feat when you consider how SRA-Gaara was reacting to CS2-Kimi, SPII-Gaara was casually blocking Deidara's fastest C1 Models, and War/Kages-Arc Gaara was reacting to multitude of notable attacks. It's not God speed, but if it's fast enough to blitz Gaara it's fast enough to blitz most Shinobi in the verse. And it's destructive might was quite formidable as well, considering it blew apart Gaara's Imperial Sand Coffin seal, like nothing, which was noted in the Data-book to be made out of Gaara's hardest sand. Combine those two features with it being nigh unstoppable due to make up of it's body and being able to reform, able to fight entire battles on it's own, and able to seemingly make use of some features of Suika no Jutsu and it's unpredictable size changing, and it becomes exceedingly difficult to deal with.

I also wonder if Mizukage was near a water source if he could make more than one, but that's nether here nor there I guess.

Anyway no matter which one is better I don't think there is a large gap. If you want to say practically speaking Jinton is a bit better tho, than I don't see a problem with that, since I'd say practically speaking Gengetsu's Clam Mirage is a bit better than Mu's Invis.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I find it amazing that despite the fact that Gengetsu can't hit Mu, he somehow managed to kill Mu


We don't know the circumstances of the fight do we, but what we do know is Gengetsu bit the bucket first.



Turrin said:


> I sincerely doubt that all the translators that have worked on Naruto throughout the years, have lived in Japan for a long period of time studying and fully immersing themselves in their culture, to the point where they understand all of the cultural and traditional nuances of the Japanese lanaguage . So if that's your argument for what the necessary qualifications of a good translator are, than likely most of the translations you've been reading, including the ones from Viz, do not fit that criteria. So to hold me to that criteria, is silly and quite frankly ridiculous, but if that is what you want to do than fine, in that case every time you present a translations of a statement I will ask you to provide a detailed background on that translator, indicating that they have indeed spent a massive amount of time in Japan studying and absorbing these nuances, as otherwise I will dismiss any point your trying to make because there always could be one of these cultural nuances in the text that the translator wouldn't otherwise be aware of w/o spending a huge amount of time studying abroad that completely changes it's meaning.


The key translator for the Naruto manga is a woman who was born in Japan, but raised in both cultures. In fact, I have trouble remembering her name but  I met her at an Inuyasha panel at an anime convention a little over 8 years ago. I believe she did translations for both of them, but I can't be certain. 



Turrin said:


> Having studied Japanese, having lived with a Japanese roomate for years, having done translations on this forum now for almost a year, having discussed and learned from other translators on the forums for years. Now what qualifies you to be talking about the subject of translations and the japanese language again?


It's not supposed to be a dick measuring contest but I've spent more time w/the language than you have (spent 3 years studying it in college) and been there for about 7 months back in 2009-2010. But I don't consider myself an expert to the point where I believe every raw scan I read in the manga I can translate w/credible certainty. 

The issue I take with you is only in the battledome, when you pass of the Japanese RAW as evidence after you explain it. When in fact multiple translations, including the ones from Viz are pointed to the contrary, you will either ignore, claim it to be mistranslated and etc.



Turrin said:


> But the bottom line is *nobody is forcing you* to use my translations or agree with me. However I believe it is very much my right as someone who has knowledge of the language to base my conclusions on what I read from the Raw-Text, unless someone more qualified explains why what i'm getting is incorrect. And no your interpretation of the Viz text, is not the same as a Viz translator explaining why he/she added or changed words and whether it was just to make the text flow better or to capture the meaning better. No one more than myself would enjoy having an official translator here to critique my translations and explain why they would translate things differently or the same, because it would be extremely interesting for me [or if ShounenSuki came back  ]
> 
> But if that happened, I assure you, you'd than suddenly say well this Viz translator isn't as good as this one. Or Shouenensuki isn't as good as the Viz. Or insert whatever reasons you can come up with to demonize people who are merely trying to share their knowledge of the language with the forum.


It becomes an issue  in any of the threads you see fit here. Again, I don't have a problem with you translating it, in fact I stated on numerous occasions that they would be a great method to bridge the gap before the real stuff comes out. But your word shouldn't supersede that of any official translation.



Turrin said:


> It depends on the situation. I.E. why don't you give examples instead of running your mouth.


It's been about 3 different discussions, with the first being about Deidara and others involving Muu/Gengetsu here and Gai in another thread. Several more from back in the day, I can't remember now.



Turrin said:


> Your claims of me condescending to everyone can be disproven by the fact that literally only a post ago I admitted that another poster did a much better job of explaining something than I myself have been doing.


You gave someone a complement, wow good for you. You're almost human now 



Turrin said:


> I condescend to people who *present trollish argument that lack substance and credibility.* Such as your argument have become as of late in your lust, to try and prove me wrong about something, simply because you are still butthurt for whatever reason or another. Or to put it another way If you present me arguments that fall along the lines of the author is wrong about his own manga because of my subjective interpretation of feats, I tend to condescend to you, because there is no way not to, the argument is just that ridiculously poor.


That's no reason to conduct yourself in an abhorring manner, especially since I've presented my cases with manga evidence as well as some others. But the moment someone proves you wrong, .


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> More often than not the goofy rival is >= to the more calm and calculating rival in this manga
> 
> Naruto >= Sasuke
> Gai > Kakashi
> ...



I see it like:

EoS Madara > > Hashirama 

EoS Orochimaru > > Jiraiya 

Nagato > > Yahiko

Mu > Gengetsu

EoS Sasuke = EoS Naruto 

EMS Kakashi = Gated Gai


----------



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2015)

I rarely ever agree with anything Turrin believes, but we _really_ shouldn't be questioning his actual ability to translate Japanese. He does answer questions on how he got what he did.

You disagree with his interpretation of what he got, but disagreeing with what the text actually says when you can't read it isn't fair.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I see it like:
> 
> EoS Madara > > Hashirama
> 
> ...



I don't think a rivalry counts anymore if one of the rivals dies and can no longer progress while another lives.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 26, 2015)

Some of it is too blurry for me to make out, I'm not as familiar with the kanji as I used to be so I actually need the hiragana in order for it to make sense. I translated what I could but again, I'm no expert and haven't used the language since I started medicine.

Top to bottom and right to left, here goes:

*感知結界*In romanized form: kanchi kekkai or in english roughly, sensing barrier.​
感知水球 と リンクしている、ドーム 型の結界。In romanized form: kanchi suikyu to rinku domu no kekkai, which means, sensing water links to the dome of the barrier.​
I could do the rest but it takes me much longer than you pros, but I get a sense about what is going here.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> So suddenly when Viz makes mistakes and someone points it out, it's a nitpick because obviously everyone making mistakes should be expected, but than at the same time when someone suggests Viz may have made mistake, you call them full of themselves. What a ridiculous double standard that is.


The difference I was pointing out was that you are still new, while they have been doing it for almost 15 years. 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Ever since I disagreed with you in the Deidara thread, *you've been stalking me from thread to thread attacking my characters on the basis of this claim that I constantly say the official Viz release is wrong and my translations are right*, yet you've been totally incapable of providing even a single example of this, outside of something totally unrelated to translation in the Deidara Thread example, which very clearly illustrates that you've been making this shit up the whole time. What's worse when confronted with an example of the Viz being wrong, you say it's only natural they make mistakes, exposing the extremely hypocritical nature of how you'v been chasing me around the boards attacking my character for simply suggesting that I would not agree with the Viz, if the Raw makes blatantly obvious they made a mistake. And your justification for doing this, is that your not the only one who thinks this way, even though as far the translation thing goes, even other posters that I don't think even like me that much, are coming out and saying that you Ryuzaki are fucking wrong. Fuck when Rocky whose probably one of the few i've feuded the hardest with out of anyone on these forums, is saying i'm right and you are wrong, you should know that your complaint is so far removed from reality it's ridiculous.


False, we've been in multiple threads where I've agreed with you, when I didn't, I obviously made it known (and we've obviously debated for pages because we both feel strongly about it), but it's not more than a handful and it's outrageous that you would think I would stalk you.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 26, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Some of it is too blurry for me to make out, I'm not as familiar with the kanji as I used to be so I actually need the hiragana in order for it to make sense. I translated what I could but again, I'm no expert and haven't used the language since I started medicine.
> 
> Top to bottom and right to left, here goes:
> 
> ...


"感知水球", is a reference to a technique "Sensing Water Sphere". 

You also missed this Kanji "型", which means model/type. And the whole thing goes:

Sensing Barrier

The"Sensing Water Sphere" is linked, to a dome type barrier. It's always been erected in Konoha village, inside the barrier the instant a suspicious person is trespassing, their direction and number of people can be sensed. 

So I'll say you have some knowledge, but you certainly shouldn't be trying to assert your familiarity exceeds mine.




> The difference I was pointing out was that you are still new, while they have been doing it for almost 15 years.


I started studying Japanese in my spare time when I lived with my Japanese roommate 6-7 years ago, than I took courses in the language when I switched colleges, which at this point I believe was 5-6 Years ago. From then on I've been studying the language on my own, ether asking my Japanese friends or online for help when I ran into problems. Than I started doing translations for these forums about a year ago, when the main translators began to disappear. And this isn't counting the mass amount of Japanese media, history, etc.. i've been absorbing for years

So while I haven't rigorously studied the language for 6-7 years, i've certainly been invested in it, for that long. And while that's not 15 Years, though, I do not know where your getting that estimate from, and while I don't profess to be a grand master or anything, I feel perfectly qualified to call out other translations that make blatant mistakes or explain how the raw text has meaning to a specific debate, which the Viz or original translator isn't around to explain. 

If your disagree that's fine, because I don't have a gun to your head forcing you to use my translations or agree with me. All I'm saying is that isI what I personally subscribe to.



> False, we've been in multiple threads where I've agreed with you, when I didn't, I obviously made it known (and we've obviously debated for pages because we both feel strongly about it), but it's not more than a handful and it's outrageous that you would think I would stalk you.


On the first page of the NBD, there are at least three threads, where you've been stalking me with the same off topic personal attacks:





You've literally been doing it ever since I did not agree with you in the Deidara thread.


----------



## Hero (Jul 27, 2015)

I've looked through a lot of people's posts, but does Mei beat anyone


----------



## Turrin (Jul 27, 2015)

^
Mei can beat Deidara, Darui, and bellow, albeit they could also beat her.


----------

