# FFVII vs FFXIII\FFXIII-2 (multi matches)



## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

MATCH 1: Head to Head
Caius Ballad


VS

Sephiroth


Location: Valhalla
Mindset: In Character
Important notes: A win can be achieve by KO/unable to continue or death.

MATCH 2: Head to Head
Lightning


VS
Cloud Strife


Location: Valhalla
Mindset: In character
Important notes:A win can be obtain by KO/unable to battle or death

MATCH 3: Head to Head

Snow Villers


VS

Tifa Lockhart


Location: Slums Church
Mindset: In Character
Important Notes:A win can be achieved by KO/unable to continue or death.

MATCH 4: Handicap

Noel Kreiss, Serah Farron, Oerba Yun Fang


VS

Vincent Valentine

Location: Frogotten City
Mindset: In Character
Important Notes:Serah has the ability to fight alongside her tamed monsters.A win can be achieved by KO/unable to continue or death

MATCH 5: FFVII vs FFXIII\XIII-2
FFVII team

*Spoiler*: __ 



Sephiroth, Cloud, Tifa, Vincent




VS 

FFXIII/XIII-2 team

*Spoiler*: __ 



Caius, Lightning, Snow, Noel, Serrah, Fang




Important notes:
Fang can go Ragnarok at will( can she know wo is her friend or foe at this state )


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 2, 2012)

Are summons (lolBahamutZero) allowed at all?


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## Ulti (Nov 2, 2012)

You don't need to restrict Caius, Sephiroth still destroys him.

Cloud has a massive speed advantage over Lightning but Lightning is quite the durable bitch so she could take a few attacks and she has the capacity to take him down, dunno about that one.

No idea how you can scale Tifa so I'll leave that.

Sephiroth likely solos the XIII team.

And a side note, Noel and Serah and town level durability due to taking a megaflare from Caius and weaker flares are town level, they were only knocked out for a few seconds.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Summons are allowed exept jet Bahamut and ist 2 companions


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## Ulti (Nov 2, 2012)

Vincent also destroys them if he turns into Chaos, not sure about Galian beast.

Which means he can also solo the last scenario.


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 2, 2012)

So, Bahamut Zero nukes from outer space? Or Knights of the Round solorapes? Assuming the latter doesn't get killed during it's outrageously long summon sequence


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## Ulti (Nov 2, 2012)

Most VII Summons are gameplay mechanics, note how none of the collateral damage appears when the sequence is finished.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Lightning was shown to be pretty fast in the opening cinematic of xiii-2, plus her fighting style at close range(melee+sword combat is pretty fast) can give Cloud problems


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

The one who summons Bahamut zero is Genesis and he is not here


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## Ulti (Nov 2, 2012)

- Cloud's speed

 - Lightning's

Cloud is mach 52, Light is like mach 7 if I recall.


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 2, 2012)

firekioken said:


> The one who summons Bahamut zero is Genesis and he is not here



 May you please link this? I want to see it


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Who summons Bahamut Zero then?


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 2, 2012)

I meant I wanted to see the video. I want to see hoe zero looks in whatever game this is.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

In crisi core genes summons him on angeal's hometown


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## Expelsword (Nov 2, 2012)

Cloud and Sephiroth speed blitz to hell.
With restrictions on Caius there's no way Seph can lose.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

Why did you restrict Caius? Sephiroth has a massive speed advantage, same one Cloud has over Lightning not to mention gigaton level magic that will one-shot Caius.

Cloud has multi-block level slashes, potentially town level limit breaks vs Lightning's borderline small city durability. If Lightning survives long enough she could try summoning her Eidolons Odin and Bahamut, the latter especially could try flying into the sky and raining down megaflares (small city level) a single one of which would kill Cloud if it hit.  Cloud takes it 7/10

Tifa is quite lacking in terms of feats or even scaling. Loz was playing with her  the whole time they were fighting, aside from some decent strength feats like breaking a wooden chair with a backhand. Snow meanwhile has hypersonic reactions and can send giant multi-story flans into the air with a single punch. Snow kicks her ass.

Vincent transforms into Chaos and proceeds to solo the entirety of both VII and XIII (yes including Sephiroth). Sephiroth or Chaos Vincent solo the last fight.


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## Expelsword (Nov 2, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Vincent transforms into Chaos and proceeds to solo the entirety of both VII and XIII (yes including Sephiroth). Sephiroth or Chaos Vincent solo the last fight.



Isn't it said that AC Sephiroth is the most powerful being in the FFVII continuity?

Either way, the last match is no contest.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> Isn't it said that AC Sephiroth is the most powerful being in the FFVII continuity?
> 
> Either way, the last match is no contest.



That statement was made before Dirge of Cerberus came out and both Chaos Vincent and Omega Weiss have better feats than Sephiroth.


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## Expelsword (Nov 2, 2012)

I guess you could say he's kind of unquanifiable because he never goes all out...


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## Solar (Nov 2, 2012)

firekioken said:


> MATCH 1: Head to Head
> Caius Ballad
> VS
> 
> ...



I don't know guys, IC Sephiroth so Caius might be in this fight for a while. 

But yeah, VII wins in all matches sans Snow vs. Tifa and that's only because Tifa has nothing to gauge from.


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## SHM (Nov 2, 2012)

Mailbox said:


> I don't know guys, IC Sephiroth so Caius might be in this fight for a while.



Caius is not Cloud. Sephiroth only plays around with Cloud.


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## Ulti (Nov 2, 2012)

Was gonna say

Though I vaugely recall him toying with Genesis and Angeal before getting a bit serious and he dicked around with the main party in VII iirc


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> I guess you could say he's kind of unquanifiable because he never goes all out...





Mailbox said:


> I don't know guys, IC Sephiroth so Caius might be in this fight for a while.
> 
> But yeah, VII wins in all matches sans Snow vs. Tifa and that's only because Tifa has nothing to gauge from.



Sephiroth being IC won't stop him from stomping Caius badly. In Crisis Core other than his sparring match with Genesis and Angeal he didn't hold back. Se was completely serious when he one-shotted Ifrit and when he kicked Zack's ass. People confuse Sephiroth and Dante, the former holds back only where it involves Cloud while the latter holds back constantly unless he knows he has to go all out.



SHM said:


> Caius is not Cloud. Sephiroth only plays around with Cloud.



I got ninja'ed damn lol



The Penetrator said:


> Was gonna say
> 
> Though I vaugely recall him toying with Genesis and Angeal before getting a bit serious and he dicked around with the main party in VII iirc



That was a friendly sparring match however heated (pardon the crappy pun ) it may have ended up getting. The main party has the benefit of being led by Cloud. Seph screws around with Cloud, no one else.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 2, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Most VII Summons are gameplay mechanics, note how none of the collateral damage appears when the sequence is finished.



Maybe so, but their is a bit of powerscaling you can do for them I'd figure.

Given most summons like bahamut should be well above ga spells, which were easily more powerful than that pair of couple dozen kiloton bombs reno and rude survived holding in there hands in ACC (that ga spell cast on the roof of the shinra building was something the cast worried about being life threatening to cloud IIRC, in comparison, everyone caught in the blast made by those bombs from reno and rude came out alive).

You also apparently have the turks defeating the jade weapon in before crisis in canon.  The weapons themselves easily possessing triple digit megatons worth of durability.

Lets put it like this, it was either limit breaks or summons that probably dropped the weapon.  Not 100% sure which it was, but it had to be something like that.

Can't really call it a PIS feat either.


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## Ulti (Nov 2, 2012)

I see where you're coming from, kilotons should be easy to scale to the summons from Reno and Rude's feats.

Lack of knowledge on the JADE Weapon fight hurts that notation though if they can survive against triple digit megatons...


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## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 2, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> I see where you're coming from, kilotons should be easy to scale to the summons from Reno and Rude's feats.



More or less really.



> Lack of knowledge on the JADE Weapon fight hurts that notation though if they can survive against triple digit megatons...



I was mostly thinking summons on par with knights of the round or bahamut zero/whatever the strongest available were in before crisis.

The lack of knowledge only makes it so you can't say the turks were harming jade weapon with normal physical attacks, and even potentially magic materia.

The big guns of the verse like summons and higher end limit breaks though?

They had to kill it somehow.

And yeah, megaton durability would come from the fact the weapons were basically shown to have crashed into the ground to form those impact craters at the bottom of the ocean and that junon lake like crater.

Also helps the DC of weapon too, but no ones claiming a fucking turk survived an attack from weapon


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## Ulti (Nov 2, 2012)

That makes sense and I am leaning towards the summons when it comes to killing the Weapons considering that even limit breaks from Cloud haven't been shown to do that much damage.

Was Vincent involved in that fight? Don't really remember, if he was he could've had a part in it


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## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 2, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> That makes sense and I am leaning towards the summons when it comes to killing the Weapons considering that even limit breaks from Cloud haven't been shown to do that much damage.



Same here really.

Seems like too much of an assumption to say it was limit breaks when summons are probably the best and safest way to explain it.



> Was Vincent involved in that fight? Don't really remember, if he was he could've had a part in it



Nah, he was sleeping in his coffin in the mansion still at that point IIRC.

Been a while since I looked up before crisis shit though, not something I particularly feel like doing again for a while either.

I barely like acknowledging the compilations for feats.  I'd prefer just sticking to the original game.


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## Ulti (Nov 2, 2012)

Summons are more powerful than characters, generally speaking after all.

I liked Crisis Core, bit of a mess story wise, gameplay was nice though and the ending sequence was nicely done.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> *Summons are more powerful than characters, generally speaking after all.*
> 
> I liked Crisis Core, bit of a mess story wise, gameplay was nice though and the ending sequence was nicely done.



Cecil says hi 

The FFX party also beat all of the aeons at the end of the game just before the Yu Yevon fight. Speaking of Crisis Core Zack beat several summons over the course of that game including two different forms of Bahamut. Other than that though you'd be right.


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## Not Sure (Nov 2, 2012)

Didn't Word of God say that Caius is the strongest Final Fantasy Villain? If so, then doesn't he stomp Sephiroth?


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

They said he was the strongest character in FF history that we were gonna fight
Did they said that story wise or gameplaywise?


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

Not Sure said:


> Didn't Word of God say that Caius is the strongest Final Fantasy Villain? If so, then doesn't he stomp Sephiroth?



While they did say that, Caius simply doesn't have the feats to support him being stronger than many FF villains other than low tier ones. Then again we never really saw what Caius is capable of when he is completely serious, even against Lightning he didn't really go all out. Heck after knocking her out in Requiem of the Goddess he even mentioned how easy it was.

Hopefully he'll get new feats in Lightning Returns. He is too boss to settle for being a low mid-tier FF villain.


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## Solar (Nov 2, 2012)

SHM said:


> Caius is not Cloud. Sephiroth only plays around with Cloud.





Adamant soul said:


> Sephiroth being IC won't stop him from stomping Caius badly. In Crisis Core other than his sparring match with Genesis and Angeal he didn't hold back. Se was completely serious when he one-shotted Ifrit and when he kicked Zack's ass. People confuse Sephiroth and Dante, the former holds back only where it involves Cloud while the latter holds back constantly unless he knows he has to go all out.



I added the  for effect. I acknowldged he would win right after.


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## Expelsword (Nov 2, 2012)

> Didn't Word of God say that Caius is the strongest Final Fantasy Villain? If so, then doesn't he stomp Sephiroth?



Caius stronger than God Kefka or ExDeath?
Not even possible.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> Caius stronger than God Kefka or ExDeath?
> Not even possible.



You never know, we'll have to wait for more feats in Lightning returns to know for sure 

There are also the other Gods yet to show themselves in XIII and they have a hell of a lot of hype going for them as of now and some impressive feats to boot and they haven't even appeared yet (except Etro). Hopefully they get on-screen feats in Lightning returns.


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## Ice (Nov 2, 2012)

I highly doubt Caius would surpass Kefka. Dude can send Petaton level spells at you.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

Axel Almer said:


> I highly doubt Caius would surpass Kefka. Dude can send Petaton level spells at you.



I never said he would but it is likely we haven't seen the limits of his abilities, he hasn't had any reason to go all out yet especially since he needed to lose to Serah and Noel to kill Etro.

The Gods however do have some really good feats and hype going for them at the moment. Hopefully Lindzei, Hallowed Pulse and the Maker show up in Lightning returns. They should though all things considered.


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## Expelsword (Nov 2, 2012)

So, is XIII the new VII, or what?


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Tifa got HEAVILY underrated here

Tiff completely kicked Loz ass. To his credit he had good endurance to resist Tifa's blows( IMO she delivered those blows with incredible power, generated by her speed(specially those kicks))Loz beated Tifa due to the matter of fact that he outsmarted her. He trowed towered her the giant wooden chair to blind her point of view(since she had no knowledge of Loz speed plus electrical device he stunned her from point blank!)

Tifa also knows MONK fighting style, Snow has not shown any combat style exept of brute force.

Tifa clearly was beating him.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Tifa got HEAVILY underrated here
> 
> Tiff completely kicked Loz ass. To his credit he had good endurance to resist Tifa's blows( IMO she delivered those blows with incredible power, generated by her speed(specially those kicks))Loz beated Tifa due to the matter of fact that he outsmarted her. He trowed towered her the giant wooden chair to blind her point of view(since she had no knowledge of Loz speed plus electrical device he stunned her from point blank!)
> 
> ...



Loz was clearly PLAYING with her the entire time, he even admitted it, she didn't do any notable damage to him whatsoever and the moment he got serious she got blitzed. Skill doesn't a thing when your opponent has way better strength (sending multi-story tall flans flying with a punch) and speed (very casually bullet timing, fought two hypersonic opponents at once) feats than you do. 

This isn't even factoring in the Shiva sisters or Snow's magic abilities. He can either kill her with his fists, freeze her with blizzard spells or just let the Shiva sisters pwn her. She also isn't hurting him all that much, he is way too durable. Sorry dude but there's no two ways about it, Tifa is getting her ass kicked. End of story.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

When did he admitted? He outsmarted her, she had no knowledge of his speed either. She was beating him HARD.

If Tifa gets on close range on Snow she is going to punish him. He is to slow has no fighting skill only brute strainght


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 2, 2012)

So, Bahamut ZERO is townbuster thx to Crisis Core, apparently.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

TheBlackDragonz said:


> So, Bahamut ZERO is townbuster thx to Crisis Core, apparently.


Why do you keep bringing Bahamut Zero here?


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 2, 2012)

Because he is best form of Bahamut in FF7 and since materia seem to be allowed, I'm trying to get him quantified.


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## Ulti (Nov 2, 2012)

Snow was bullet timing assault rifles and smashing missiles out of the air.

Slow my ass.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Snow was bullet timing assault rifles and smashing missiles out of the air.
> 
> Slow my ass.


When was shown him dodging bullets?


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

firekioken said:


> When did he admitted? He outsmarted her, she had no knowledge of his speed either. She was beating him HARD.
> 
> If Tifa gets on close range on Snow she is going to punish him. He is to slow has no fighting skill only brute strainght



"Play with me." His exact words right before the fight starts, the fact that when told to bring Marlene back he immediately dropped his playful tone of voice and completely blitzed the shit out of her. Knowledge of his speed wouldn't have helped she was still too slow to react to him.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdgW9QvQa0[/YOUTUBE]

Who is too slow again? VERY casual bullet timing on Snow's part not to mention freezing the missile from Gilgamesh's RPG before it could even cross the short distance between the too. So to answer my question Tifa is the one that is too slow here.

Again combat skill rarely matters in the OBD dude, it only really comes into play when the combatants are comparable in stats, this isn't the case here where Snow is considerably above Tifa in pretty much everything from strength, speed, versatility. Skill is the only thing she has on him and that won't do her any good. Again Tifa stands absolutely no chance here.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Good reaction times yes, but when the time come to swing those fist he is damn to slow for Tifa. She is overally faster than him I have never seen him attaking with the dashing speed of her.

Will he be able to summon the Shiva sister if she is all day onhim owning him ala monk style. He only brawls wich is extremely amateurish


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## Ice (Nov 2, 2012)

Yeah, Loz was clearly playing with her. Tifa stood no chance against him.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Good reaction times yes, but when the time come to swing those fist he is damn to slow for Tifa. She is overally faster than him I have never seen him attaking with the dashing speed of her.
> 
> Will he be able to summon the Shiva sister if she is all day onhim owning him ala monk style. He only brawls wich is extremely amateurish



You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, Tifa is going to out speed a guy with FAR superior reactions to her, she'll throw a punch, Snow will catch her fist and deal her back one in return only she won't be quick enough to block and within a few blows he'll crush her skull.

Yes he can easily summon the Shiva sisters, or spam blizzard spells or just downright beat her to death due to superior reactions, durability, endurance, strength, versatility and basically everything under the sun. Get it through your head, skill doesn't mean shit here, Tifa can't beat Snow.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, Tifa is going to out speed a guy with FAR superior reactions to her, she'll throw a punch, Snow will catch her fist and deal her back one in return only she won't be quick enough to block and within a few blows he'll crush her skull.
> 
> Yes he can easily summon the Shiva sisters, or spam blizzard spells or just downright beat her to death due to superior reactions, durability, endurance, strength, versatility and basically everything under the sun. Get it through your head, skill doesn't mean shit here, Tifa can't beat Snow.


In what you are basing Tifa's reaction? Tifa throws a punch snow blocks, guess what she easily can maneuver wraps her legs on Snow's head and throw him over.He might be stronger, but in the end he is just an amateur brawler. When has Snow showed to blitz just how Loz did? NEVER he can't

Skills DO MATTER in fights it's fundamental

Monk>Brawler


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

firekioken said:


> In what you are basing Tifa's reaction? Tifa throws a punch snow blocks, guess what she easily can maneuver wraps her legs on Snow's head and throw him over.He might be stronger, but in the end he is just an amateur brawler. When has Snow showed to blitz just how Loz did? NEVER he can't
> 
> Skills DO MATTER in fights it's fundamental
> 
> Monk>Brawler



The fact that Tifa has no feats of bullet timing whatsoever and the first time the only bullet timing opponent she had an on screen fight with got serious she got lolblitzed. Snow however has Mach 7 reactions by powerscaling and on-screen feats of very casual bullet timing as you have been shown. 

Are you really this stupid. do I need to spell things out. A character's reaction speed is how fast a character's brain can process information and also represents the enemy speeds they can react to. Take your scenario there, Snow catches her fists, she tries to get her legs around his head but by the time she can pull that off she's taken a punch in the gut from Snow's other fist and has been sent flying.

This isn't real life dude, we are talking about fiction here. When your opponent is so much faster, you can't even land a hit on him, skill isn't going to matter in the slightest. conversely if you aren't strong enough to hurt your opponent skill means precisely jack and shit. Zack for example has shown far better sword skills than Lightning but his inability to deal any significant damage to Lightning at all shows who the clear winner is and it isn't Zack.

Snow beats Tifa get over it.


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 2, 2012)

This isn't going to end well.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> The fact that Tifa has no feats of bullet timing whatsoever and the first time the only bullet timing opponent she had an on screen fight with got serious she got lolblitzed. Snow however has Mach 7 reactions by powerscaling and on-screen feats of very casual bullet timing as you have been shown.
> 
> Are you really this stupid. do I need to spell things out. A character's reaction speed is how fast a character's brain can process information and also represents the enemy speeds they can react to. Take your scenario there, Snow catches her fists, she tries to get her legs around his head but by the time she can pull that off she's taken a punch in the gut from Snow's other fist and has been sent flying.
> 
> ...


She dint even Know that she had Loz on her back! She was blinded by the wooden chair she did not saw him! That's why she did not dare to react, she did not know she had him behind him. Its like getting suckerpunched it deals more damage than actually being aware of the punch coming

Reactions speed does not equal fighting skills. I had yet to see Snow moveng with the speed and agility that Tifa has. He might react fast but thats where it enes and her amateur brawling enter the fray.


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## Expelsword (Nov 2, 2012)

Skill only matters if you are relative with your opponent.
Bruce Lee has much more skill than Superman.
He loses to Superman.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

firekioken said:


> She dint even Know that she had Loz on her back! She was blinded by the wooden chair she did not saw him! That's why she did not dare to react, she did not know she had him behind him. Its like getting suckerpunched it deals more damage than actually being aware of the punch coming
> 
> Reactions speed does not equal fighting skills. I had yet to see Snow moveng with the speed and agility that Tifa has. He might react fast but thats where it enes and her amateur brawling enter the fray.



So you didn't notice the fact that Loz didn't move until after she hit the stool. She didn't see him because he was moving way too fast and watch it again, he hit her from the front, not from behind. She was blitzed completely and utterly end of story.

No it doesn't, that I agree with however as I've said fighting skills don't mean jack shit in this scenario. Yes you have, he practically ran around each bullet Gilgamesh fired, that already demonstrates FAR superior speed (both movement and reactions) than I've ever seen out of Tifa. Your appealing to visuals instead of what is actually in the scene, for example in certain shows you see characters moving at light speed appear to move at normal speeds yet characters in other shows far slower are shown to disappear from sight yet the former is still far more impressive than the latter. 

She may be more agile (agility and speed are two different things and one is far more useful than the other and it's not agility) but again it doesn't mean a damn thing here when she is literally so much slower that she will never land a hit on Snow. There is a reason in manga series' like Dragonball once you get to a certain power threshold pure stats started to mean everything and skill meant precisely nothing.

Brawler with hypersonic reactions, superior durability, endurance, speed, range and versatility >>>>> Monk with superior skill and agility.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> Skill only matters if you are relative with your opponent.
> Bruce Lee has much more skill than Superman.
> He loses to Superman.


That's a big gap. This is a whole other different situation. Tifa has some advantages, Snow has others

Tifa:
MONK fighting doctrine(Deadly specially with brawlers like Loz(check their fight, she was owning him until he blinded her and appear on her back(something she WAS NOT AWARE of))
Speed mixed with dashes(and power generated by those)
Decent endurance

Snow:
Super strength
Great endurance
Blizard spell
Ediolons


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

firekioken said:


> That's a big gap. This is a whole other different situation. Tifa has some advantages, Snow has others
> 
> Tifa:
> MONK fighting doctrine(Deadly specially with brawlers like Loz(check their fight, she was owning him until he blinded her and appear on her back(something she WAS NOT AWARE of))
> ...



You left out a few things, I fixed it for you.


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> So you didn't notice the fact that Loz didn't move until after she hit the stool. She didn't see him because he was moving way too fast and watch it again, he hit her from the front, not from behind. She was blitzed completely and utterly end of story.
> 
> No it doesn't, that I agree with however as I've said fighting skills don't mean jack shit in this scenario. Yes you have, he practically ran around each bullet Gilgamesh fired, that already demonstrates FAR superior speed (both movement and reactions) than I've ever seen out of Tifa. Your appealing to visuals instead of what is actually in the scene, for example in certain shows you see characters moving at light speed appear to move at normal speeds yet characters in other shows far slower are shown to disappear from sight yet the former is still far more impressive than the latter.
> 
> ...


You are so wrong you are the one who should see th scene again.

He threw the wooden chair to BLIND her and blitz her to get on her back. He did not wait as you said(stop twisting facts) if he waited was to get on her blindspot. Stun he from behind and squash her on the pillar( after getting suckerpunched of course)

Fighting skills DO MATTER, if you want to shut them down to your benefit then is not working

BTW this is not DBZ


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

firekioken said:


> You are so wrong you are the one who should see th scene again.
> 
> He threw the wooden chair to BLIND her and blitz her to get on her back. He did not wait as you said(stop twisting facts) if he waited was to get on her blindspot. Stun he from behind and squash her on the pillar( after getting suckerpunched of course)
> 
> ...



Okay I admit I remembered the scene wrong but still, in the space of time it took the stool to shatter from Tifa's punch, Loz made it from where he was, round her back and proceeded to two-shot and she couldn't do a damn thing about it. It was still a blatant lolblitz moment showing just how inferior to Loz Tifa really was.

How many times in how many different ways do I have to explain this to you. I know this isn't DBZ, I brought that up as an example of what I was talking about. Now do explain how in the hell skill is going to help Tifa when she is dealing with someone who is much, MUCH better than her in every physical stat. Snow has taken hits from giant flans and other beings with far greater strength than Tifa. 

Really now explain how the fuck skill is going to help her when she is slower, too weak to even harm him significantly, and has to deal with the fact her faster opponent doesn't even have to be anywhere near her to attack her via magic, not to mention if he summons the Shiva sisters and there is jack shit she can do to stop him from doing it then she is royally screwed simple as that. Snow at that point can simply sit and watch the Shiva sisters turn Tifa into an ice cube. 

So once again you ignorant no amount of skill is saving her from the ass kicking she will be receiving here, she is pretty much outclassed in every physical respect except skill and that won't help her.


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## Ice (Nov 2, 2012)

I would argue that Tifa also has hypersonic reactions. Since she DID fight with Loz, despite how non-serious he was.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

Axel Almer said:


> I would argue that Tifa also has hypersonic reactions. Since she DID fight with Loz, despite how non-serious he was.



The problem is most of the time, Loz didn't really move a lot, he let Tifa come to him and would lazily try to counter. The only time he made the first move in a sequence was the end when he blitzed the shit out of her. There's not really a whole lot to support Tifa having hypersonic reactions when Loz literally wasn't making any effort to avoid, it wasn't that he couldn't, he simply didn't.

Supersonic reactions and maybe speed I don't have a problem with but I really can't but her being hypersonic based on that.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Okay I admit I remembered the scene wrong but still, in the space of time it took the stool to shatter from Tifa's punch, Loz made it from where he was, round her back and proceeded to two-shot and she couldn't do a damn thing about it. It was still a blatant lolblitz moment showing just how inferior to Loz Tifa really was.
> 
> How many times in how many different ways do I have to explain this to you. I know this isn't DBZ, I brought that up as an example of what I was talking about. Now do explain how in the hell skill is going to help Tifa when she is dealing with someone who is much, MUCH better than her in every physical stat. Snow has taken hits from giant flans and other beings with far greater strength than Tifa.
> 
> ...


Why do you keep down playing the fact that she was hit on a blindspot, and had no knowledge on Loz speed? After getting basically suckerpunched she was out. And since you keep bringing up DBZ here, HOW DID  MAJIN DEAFEATED GOKU ON THE BUU SAGA? HE SUCKER PUNCHED HIM. GOKU WAS NOT AWARE OF THE BETRAYAL

You still say that Tifa is slower lol I had never seen Snow moving as fast as she did against Loz! She weaker, she has her monk fighting+speed+agility to generare power you ser that on the church fight.

Snob phisically better than Tifa, also was Loz but that dint matter cuz both Loz and Snow are amateur brawlers

BTW 
Don't insult me, I had not insult you yet


----------



## Adamant soul (Nov 2, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Why do you keep down playing the fact that she was hit on a blindspot, and had no knowledge on Loz speed? After getting basically suckerpunched she was out. And since you keep bringing up DBZ here, HOW DID  MAJIN DEAFEATED GOKU ON THE BUU SAGA? HE SUCKER PUNCHED HIM. GOKU WAS NOT AWARE OF THE BETRAYAL
> 
> You still say that Tifa is slower lol I had never seen Snow moving as fast as she did against Loz! She weaker, she has her monk fighting+speed+agility to generare power you ser that on the church fight.
> 
> ...



Dude seriously, you would have a point if Loz was standing right in front of Tifa when he kicked the stool to her, but he wasn't, he was standing at the opposite end of the church, didn't start moving until she punched the stool and she was still completely unable to stop him from getting behind her from that kind of distance.Bottom line she was blitzed, if she was anywhere near Loz in terms of speed he would not have been able to get behind her from that distance. Get the point?

You haven't seen Snow move that fast. Blatantly lying now are we? are you telling me Snow VERY CASUALLY running around machine gun bullets while closing the distance between himself and the shooter is slower that Tifa was moving against Loz. LMAO again you are relying on visuals when the scene with Snow and Gilgamesh was clearly slowed down so we, the viewers could actually see what was going on hence why you can actually see the bullets moving in that scene. I think I've proved that point well enough now.

So of course you can direct me to feats where Tifa can send a multi-story monster flying over 10 feet in the air with a single punch. Noel took a punch from the giant Atlas who was easily tearing through brick walls and he got straight back up, Snow is much more durable than him, especially given that was start of the game Noel practically not end of game Noel who can tank town destroying attacks mind you Snow fought both end of game Serah and Noel at the same time but I won't go down that route. Snow already has more than enough durability to laugh at anything Tifa throws at him.

You still haven't provided a way for Tifa to counter Snow's magic or the Shiva Sisters, neither of which take Snow nearly enough time for Tifa to cross the 20m starting distance before he can do them.

Convinced yet or do you need some visual aid before the obvious becomes clear to you?


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## firekioken (Nov 2, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Dude seriously, you would have a point if Loz was standing right in front of Tifa when he kicked the stool to her, but he wasn't, he was standing at the opposite end of the church, didn't start moving until she punched the stool and she was still completely unable to stop him from getting behind her from that kind of distance.Bottom line she was blitzed, if she was anywhere near Loz in terms of speed he would not have been able to get behind her from that distance. Get the point?
> 
> You haven't seen Snow move that fast. Blatantly lying now are we? are you telling me Snow VERY CASUALLY running around machine gun bullets while closing the distance between himself and the shooter is slower that Tifa was moving against Loz. LMAO again you are relying on visuals when the scene with Snow and Gilgamesh was clearly slowed down so we, the viewers could actually see what was going on hence why you can actually see the bullets moving in that scene. I think I've proved that point well enough now.
> 
> ...


You yet to admit than Loz used the wooden chair to blind her didn't you

I will continue this argument tomorrow, I have 6 hours to sleep before college


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## Ice (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> You yet to admit than Loz used the wooden chair to blind her didn't you
> 
> I will continue this argument tomorrow, I have 6 hours to sleep before *college*


Another one.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> You yet to admit than Loz used the wooden chair to blind her didn't you
> 
> I will continue this argument tomorrow, I have 6 hours to sleep before college



You yet to admit Loz could have ended that fight any time he wished and the only reason she seemed to be winning was because Loz was barely trying at the time as most people with any common sense can tell.

I tire of this argument anyway, you've yet to produce any legitimate counter to the Shiva Sisters, nor any way Tifa can stop him from summoning them (she can't). I've said all I need to, if you wish to continue living in your dream world where Tifa has a hope in hell against Snow be my guest, but I won't respond to any more of your baseless and idiotic arguments.


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## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 3, 2012)

Can my Fang transform into Ragnarok?

Also Snow's Shiva can fly in bike mode.


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## Ulti (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> When was shown him dodging bullets?



Cutscene when you first enter the colosseum and Snow is going at it with Gilgamesh.


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## firekioken (Nov 3, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> You yet to admit Loz could have ended that fight any time he wished and the only reason she seemed to be winning was because Loz was barely trying at the time as most people with any common sense can tell.
> 
> I tire of this argument anyway, you've yet to produce any legitimate counter to the Shiva Sisters, nor any way Tifa can stop him from summoning them (she can't). I've said all I need to, if you wish to continue living in your dream world where Tifa has a hope in hell against Snow be my guest, but I won't respond to any more of your baseless and idiotic arguments.


No the only reason Loz beated Tifa was because he FINALLY had the opportunity to do so. You make it seem as he did not try the whole fight? LOL rematch the fight Tifa was on him all the time, she had superior fighting skills (monk), superior speed, agility. She was to good for him. She tought the fight was over after the last throw wich was a mistake. She stop punishing Loz. At the end of the fight Loz blinded her with the wooden chair an basically suckerpunched her

How will Snow summon the Shiva sisters if Tifa is on him punishing his amateur brawling?


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## Adamant soul (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> No the only reason Loz beated Tifa was because he FINALLY had the opportunity to do so. You make it seem as he did not try the whole fight? LOL rematch the fight Tifa was on him all the time, she had superior fighting skills (monk), superior speed, agility. She was to good for him. She tought the fight was over after the last throw wich was a mistake. She stop punishing Loz. At the end of the fight Loz blinded her with the wooden chair an basically suckerpunched her
> 
> How will Snow summon the Shiva sisters if Tifa is on him punishing his amateur brawling?



Your ignorance is getting hilarious dude. Oh yeah Loz can fight Cloud without getting instantly pwned yet he can't beat Tifa without a cheap shot and don't even bring up Geostigma because as the Bahamut Sin fight proved even a weakened Cloud is BY FAR the strongest member of the party in every single way short of Chaos Vincent, Tifa doesn't compare to Cloud in any form, yet you are actually entertaining the notion Loz was going all out against Tifa. :rofl 

Does it not strike you as odd that Loz only used his true speed once against Tifa yet used it constantly against Cloud. Yeah he was really going all out against Tifa like despite the fact he wasn't hurt in the slightest, hardly even moved prior to blitzing her and basically said he was "playing with her" which you have conventionally ignored.

Because not only can she not hurt Snow with her attacks, she's not fast enough to cross the 20m starting distance before he summons especisally given he is the faster of the two and once again no amount of skill is going to magically allow her to hurt someone with Snow's durability. But continue exhibiting how pathetically ignorant you are, I've given actual feats (none of which you've managed to counter and many of which you outright ignored when it suited you) where as all you have given is your fpersonal fanfic version of what happened in the Tifa vs Loz fight. 

Anyway to give this thread some quality after the horrible excuse for an argument you have put up

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FaZQoZf4OY[/YOUTUBE]

This will play during Tifa's ass kicking, one of the best FF protagonist themes in the series if I do say so myself despite the fact Snow himself is the least interesting character in the game.


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## firekioken (Nov 3, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Your ignorance is getting hilarious dude. Oh yeah Loz can fight Cloud without getting instantly pwned yet he can't beat Tifa without a cheap shot and don't even bring up Geostigma because as the Bahamut Sin fight proved even a weakened Cloud is BY FAR the strongest member of the party in every single way short of Chaos Vincent, Tifa doesn't compare to Cloud in any form, yet you are actually entertaining the notion Loz was going all out against Tifa. :rofl
> 
> Does it not strike you as odd that Loz only used his true speed once against Tifa yet used it constantly against Cloud. Yeah he was really going all out against Tifa like despite the fact he wasn't hurt in the slightest, hardly even moved prior to blitzing her and basically said he was "playing with her" which you have conventionally ignored.
> 
> ...


LOL you frogot that Cloud was in a handicap match agaisnt Loz. You see Cloud was not only fighting Loz he was also fighting the other 2 brothers as well. When Loz finally HAD the opportunity to attack Tifa was when she STOPPED FIGHTING, SHE TOUGHT THE FIGHT WAS OVER AND LEFT HIM ON THE FLOOR. I was clearly evident tha she was beating the shit out of him and schooling him. And yes he cheapshotted her to win get over it

He "playing with her" LOL when he came to the church he said "play with me" TO MARLENE, NOT TO TIFA. Tifa hides Marlene and then there is a fight.

Pls stop EXPOSING yourself like this, it's embarrassing, and funny

PS. 
I will go to college now, if after college you keep underrating Tifa, then I will keep "tapping dat ass"


----------



## Adamant soul (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> LOL you frogot that Cloud was in a handicap match agaisnt Loz. You see Cloud was not only fighting Loz he was also fighting the other 2 brothers as well. When Loz finally HAD the opportunity to attack Tifa was when she STOPPED FIGHTING, SHE TOUGHT THE FIGHT WAS OVER AND LEFT HIM ON THE FLOOR. I was clearly evident tha she was beating the shit out of him and schooling him. And yes he cheapshotted her to win get over it
> 
> He "playing with her" LOL when he came to the church he said "play with me" TO MARLENE, NOT TO TIFA. Tifa hides Marlene and then there is a fight.
> 
> Pls stop EXPOSING yourself like this, it's embarrassing, and funny



You missed the point of what I said though at this point I kind of expected you to. Yes I realize Yazoo was helping Loz against Cloud, still doesn't change the fact Cloud is so far beyond Tifa in every stat it isn't funny. Tifa level opponents would be no better than infantrymen compared to Cloud, the fact Loz and Yazoo lasted any more than a couple of seconds against Cloud proves their well beyond Tifa individually or they would have just got annihilated. Get the point.

When Loz finally decided to end his play time AFTER BEING TOLD TO, he blitzed Tifa like a complete chump. Again if Tifa was anywhere near Loz in terms of speed there is no freaking way in hell even with the stool Loz would have been able to blitz her that badly from the other side of the church and you just proved how badly you need to watch that scene again. He raised his hand and was looking directly at Tifa when he said to "play with me", pretty obvious he was talking to Tifa. But go on, keep ignoring blatant facts.

You're right this is embarrassing, embarrassing that I am not an FFVII fan by any means yet I quite clearly understand it better than you, that must be quite humiliating for you. But anyway I have officially grown bored of this argument, I've already proved the multitutde of ways Snow can win this without breaking a sweat and you have failed to put up any decent counter to any of them exceptfor somehow assuming the slower fighter will cross 20m to the faster one before he casts a spell or summons and she won't be able to. You should be happy VII wins every other match here at least.

I know you'll post a bullshit response to this continuing to blatantly ignore how superior Snow's stats and abilities are to Tifa and believing superior skill magically gives her the ability to hurt someone with the durability to literally laugh at every punch she throws. You can do that I won't stop you but as of now I take my leave of this thread however I will leave it with some more quality to drown out your fail.

Caius' themes ftmfw good day to you sir


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## Ice (Nov 3, 2012)

Shit's still going on? It's clear as day that Tifa loses.


----------



## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 3, 2012)

I've actually forgot what the results of the other two matches were because all the debate was this one.


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## Expelsword (Nov 3, 2012)

This thread in a nutshell:
FFVII wins due to speed and power.
When Caius gets around to absorbing gods or something, he'll be the strongest antagonist, perhaps.
Tifa was blinded by a chair, ergo she cannot beat Snow.


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## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 3, 2012)

Again can Fang use Ragnarok?


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## firekioken (Nov 3, 2012)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> Again can Fang use Ragnarok?


Fang has never shown to enter Ragnarok state at will,

But YES since the XIII side seems a little weak

The matches will get an edit from now on(will stay this way) Will edit the main post as well

MATCH 1
Sephiroth vs Caius Ballad
Edit:
Caius can now go into Jet Bahamut form( if he can do it at will, last time it was under an emo rage with a large wound. If he cannot do it at will this trait seems useless.) Can now time stop( It seems that it does not work on everybody, only on Serah and Noel(low tiers only?))

MATCH 2
Cloud Strife vs Lightning
UNEdited

MATCH 3
Snow Villers vs Tifa Lockhart
UNEdited

MATCH 4
Noel Kreiss, Serah Farron, Oerba Yun Fang vs Vincent Valentine
Edit:Fang can enter the Ragnarok state at will(is she able to recognize friend from foe on this state?)

MATCH 5
FFVII team vs FFXIII/XIII-2 team
Edit
Caius can timestop(does it works with everyone?) also go Jet Bahamut(Can he go at will?). Fang can become Ragnarok(can she recognize friend from foe?)


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## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> *Fang has never shown to enter Ragnarok state at will*,
> 
> But YES since the XIII side seems a little weak
> 
> ...



1. She did it during the "War of Transgression" to protect Vanille. She caused  that hole where Eden is.

2. Of course she knows friend from foe.


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## Expelsword (Nov 3, 2012)

If Caius really can only time stop weak people, Sephiroth still solos.


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## firekioken (Nov 3, 2012)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> 1. She did it during the "War of Transgression" to protect Vanille. She caused  that hole where Eden is.
> 
> 2. Of course she knows friend from foe.


Did she get in to that state at will? Or was triggered by high emotional impulse to protect Vanille?

Anyways she can do it at will in this fight


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## firekioken (Nov 3, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> You missed the point of what I said though at this point I kind of expected you to. Yes I realize Yazoo was helping Loz against Cloud, still doesn't change the fact Cloud is so far beyond Tifa in every stat it isn't funny. Tifa level opponents would be no better than infantrymen compared to Cloud, the fact Loz and Yazoo lasted any more than a couple of seconds against Cloud proves their well beyond Tifa individually or they would have just got annihilated. Get the point.
> 
> When Loz finally decided to end his play time AFTER BEING TOLD TO, he blitzed Tifa like a complete chump. Again if Tifa was anywhere near Loz in terms of speed there is no freaking way in hell even with the stool Loz would have been able to blitz her that badly from the other side of the church and you just proved how badly you need to watch that scene again. He raised his hand and was looking directly at Tifa when he said to "play with me", pretty obvious he was talking to Tifa. But go on, keep ignoring blatant facts.
> 
> ...


I will get to you in a moment....


----------



## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 3, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> If Caius really can only *time stop weak people*, Sephiroth still solos.



He was only toying with Serah and Noel throughout the entire game so who knows.


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## firekioken (Nov 3, 2012)

Noel and Serah are weak compared to Caius


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## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Noel and Serah are weak compared to Caius



Duh, who said they were a threat to him?

Caius spent the entire game fighting Lightning during endless loops and building up Noel.

1. Caius states that Noel is too weak. Notice how Noel says "I'm not going to fight you Caius" during this part and here? Weak Will=taken over by Heart of Chaos.

2. Caius sent messages from Valhalla to all the other Caius' in the past and caused the paradoxes in order to execute his plan and build up Noel's will power.

3. During the finale, Noel is ready and determined to face Caius.

4. Caius says he basically trolled Noel & Serah since they walked right into his hands.

The above is basically the reason he never went all out during the game.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 3, 2012)

Just back to say the notion that Caius can only time stop weak people is ridiculous. You can't resist time fucking abilities by being strong, that particular kind of h4x doesn't work that way. As for how Lightning can resist it, she not only is empowered by the same goddess Caius got his heart from but apparently in Lightning returns she has a similar ability to Caius' time stop. It stands to reason she can resist it.

If you are caught in Caius' time stop range and you have no resistance to time-fuck abilities then it will work end of story, not that Caius will be able to activate it before Sephiroth obliterates him, just thought I'd say that.


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## Expelsword (Nov 3, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Just back to say the notion that Caius can only time stop weak people is ridiculous.



I thought it was a strange thing to only work on the "weak"...


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## Adamant soul (Nov 3, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> I thought it was a strange thing to only work on the "weak"...



I know it's like saying a powerful telepath can't mindfuck somebody simply because they strong even though they have no feats of mindfuck resistance. H4X like time and mind fuckery  generally specific resistance to them to avoid them.


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## firekioken (Nov 3, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> You missed the point of what I said though at this point I kind of expected you to. Yes I realize Yazoo was helping Loz against Cloud, still doesn't change the fact Cloud is so far beyond Tifa in every stat it isn't funny. Tifa level opponents would be no better than infantrymen compared to Cloud, the fact Loz and Yazoo lasted any more than a couple of seconds against Cloud proves their well beyond Tifa individually or they would have just got annihilated. Get the point.
> 
> When Loz finally decided to end his play time AFTER BEING TOLD TO, he blitzed Tifa like a complete chump. Again if Tifa was anywhere near Loz in terms of speed there is no freaking way in hell even with the stool Loz would have been able to blitz her that badly from the other side of the church and you just proved how badly you need to watch that scene again. He raised his hand and was looking directly at Tifa when he said to "play with me", pretty obvious he was talking to Tifa. But go on, keep ignoring blatant facts.
> 
> ...


Hey I'm back

Why are you comparing Cloud to Tifa? By the way Loz was able to fight the way he fought against Cloud the way he did does not uderrates Cloud, IT ACTUALLY BENEFITS TIFA AS A FIGHTER, SHE IS WAY BETTER THAN YOU THINK STOP UNDERRATING HER.

Why do you keep forgetting the fact that Tifa was blinded from her point of view and did not saw Loz blitz toasted her therefore she even there to react and basically got suckerpunched. THERE IS A REASON WHY LOZ THREW THE CHAIR TOWARDS HER TO BLIND HER.

Yes is embarrassing very embarrassing for you to keep exposing yourself like you are doing here. I'm gonna to expose you how funny you are with my next argument. 

So you say that a punch from Tifa will do nothing to Snow LOL. Snow CLEARLY GOT DROPPED WHEN LIGHTNING CROSSED(punched) HIM IN FFXIII. I wonder how would he takes those kicks to the head without getting KO by a way superior hand-to-hand fighter that is Tifa(Lightning is not even known to fight hand-to-hand(and if she does CLEARLY NOT IN THE LEVEL OF TIFA))

You just keep underrating Tifa


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## Adamant soul (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Hey I'm back
> 
> Why are you comparing Cloud to Tifa? By the way Loz was able to fight the way he fought against Cloud the way he did does not uderrates Cloud, IT ACTUALLY BENEFITS TIFA AS A FIGHTER, SHE IS WAY BETTER THAN YOU THINK STOP UNDERRATING HER.
> 
> ...



That last paragraph was hilarious, I would have ignored that post if not for the sheer level of stupidity in that last paragraph. First of all Snow wasn't hurt in the slightest by Light's punch, he was more taken by surprise than actually hurt hence why he got straight back up. Second that was Snow at his ABSOLUTE WEAKEST. You either haven't finished the first or second game or are just using that as an excuse to blatantly ignore FAR SUPERIOR durability feats Snow got later. Okay time for some visual aid which you desperately seem to need.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2CmcyT_6Wg[/YOUTUBE]

4:00 - 4:26 shortly after starting their time-travelling shenanigans Serah and Noel encounter the giant Atlas. Noel takes a punch from the giant head on, even getting smacked into a wall and proceeds to get up with little issue. See below for an idea of how strong this giant is.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcSRGez_6Xs[/YOUTUBE]

:2:30 - 2:40 poor stone pillars and walls didn't know what hit them. If only they had Noel's durability right? Guess who is more durable than Noel at that point in XIII-2, he is named after a cold weather phenomenon. 

Now to give you a better idea of how strong Snow is

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F2aziHP_0c[/YOUTUBE]

8:10 - 9:00 First of all, with a light punch to Noel's foot he sends the hunter flying up multiple stories into the air, about the high of His Royal Ripeness and that thing is huge, making the next part all the more impressive when Snow sends the huge Flan soaring into the air with a single punch. I'm having difficulty finding the scene right now but Snow also block an attack from this thing with a protect spell in a cut scene and forced it back through pure strength. 

Starting to get the point? This isn't the kind of strength or durability that any amount of a skill advantage is ever going to help Tifa get around. She still isn't nearly physically strong enough to hurt Snow if beings like Atlas couldn't hurt people weaker than Snow seriously. Thuis alone would be enough by itself but just to hammer down how badly screwed Tifa is further here are two more videos, ones you might find familiar.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLlbw1qVyNQ[/YOUTUBE]

The infamous Shiva sister's pwnage of the army, just to make it clear that is a city-block wide area the sisters damn near instantly coated in ice with their Diamond Dust. So yeah Snow summons the Shiva sisters, Tifa better put her head between her legs and kiss her ass goodbye before she becomes a a pretty ice sculpture.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdgW9QvQa0[/YOUTUBE]

Showed you this earlier. So let us run through the facts. Snow is stronger? Yes by an awful bloody lot. More durable? Goes without saying, unless you think Tifa could take a hit from Atlas (here's a hint, she can't). Faster reactions? MUCH faster. More endurance and stamina? He took a fall off a 10 - 20 story building (falling through two sheets of glass and landing back first on a wooden crate on the way down), got up with a messed up back, picked up Hope, climbed a ladder and nearly made it to Hope's house before he had to be hit by a war machine to finally go down, this being after he fought through an enemy infested city. The capability to oneshot Tifa? In way more ways than one.

So let's run through this
Tifa
Isn't fast enough to land a hit on Snow, nor can she cross the starting distance before he can summon
Isn't strong enough to deal any significant damage to Snow whatsoever
Would tire out long before Snow would show any signs of fatigue
Is powerless against Snow's magic such as protect, blizzard etc.
Won't fare any better against the Shiva Sisters
Lacks the stats to make her skill advantage mean a damn thing
Is generally out of her league against Snow

So if you're done underrating Snow based on low end feats and since you can't provide a single feat of Tifa's that remotely compares to any of the above videos in anyway I believe we are done here. damn long post, the Mods can now lock this thread, the winners of all the matches are obvious except Cloud vs Light in which Light has a decent chance of winning due to superior durability and Eidolons though Cloud's speed advantage gives him the win most of the time.


----------



## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 3, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F2aziHP_0c[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> 8:10 - 9:00 First of all, with a light punch to Noel's foot he sends the hunter flying up multiple stories into the air, about the high of His Royal Ripeness and that thing is huge, making the next part all the more impressive when Snow sends the huge Flan soaring into the air with a single punch. I'm having difficulty finding the scene right now but Snow also block an attack from this thing with a protect spell in a cut scene and forced it back through pure strength.



4:34 starts the protect scene.



Adamant soul said:


> The Mods can now lock this thread, the winners of all the matches are obvious except Cloud vs Light in which Light has a decent chance of winning due to superior durability and Eidolons though Cloud's speed advantage gives him the win most of the time.



He said Fang could go Ragnarok.


----------



## Adamant soul (Nov 3, 2012)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> 4:34 starts the protect scene.
> 
> 
> 
> He said Fang could go Ragnarok.



Ah thanks for that, I just skipped straight to the end that is why I missed it. Anyway further proves my point , not only did Snow block His royal Ripeness he proceeded to cause him to back off simply by throwing his arms out, he didn't even hit the thing and we all saw what happened when he did hit it. 

Unfortunately Ragnarok's Cocoon cracking feat is way too ambiguous both in the sense that we don't know exactly how big Cocoon is to begin with nor do we ever see the original size of the hole. Through it we can assume Orphan's shield is pretty damn strong seeing as how it took everything Fang as Ragnarok had to break through it, she was unconscious from the effort. Still not enough to beat Chaos especially with the speed advantage, flight and the explosion he survived at the end of DOC. Chaos Vincent stomps, Ragnarok or no Ragnarok.


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## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 3, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Ah thanks for that, I just skipped straight to the end that is why I missed it. Anyway further proves my point , not only did Snow block His royal Ripeness he proceeded to cause him to back off simply by throwing his arms out, he didn't even hit the thing and we all saw what happened when he did hit it.
> 
> Unfortunately Ragnarok's Cocoon cracking feat is way too ambiguous both in the sense that we don't know exactly how big Cocoon is to begin with nor do we ever see the original size of the hole. Through it we can assume Orphan's shield is pretty damn strong seeing as how it took everything Fang as Ragnarok had to break through it, she was unconscious from the effort. Still not enough to beat Chaos especially with the speed advantage, flight and the explosion he survived at the end of DOC. Chaos Vincent stomps, Ragnarok or no Ragnarok.



I still don't see why you guys hold that end of DoC feat in such high regard when all it did was return both Chaos and Omega to the lifestream. The so called expolosion didn't even cause damage of any kind.


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## firekioken (Nov 3, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Ah thanks for that, I just skipped straight to the end that is why I missed it. Anyway further proves my point , not only did Snow block His royal Ripeness he proceeded to cause him to back off simply by throwing his arms out, he didn't even hit the thing and we all saw what happened when he did hit it.
> 
> Unfortunately Ragnarok's Cocoon cracking feat is way too ambiguous both in the sense that we don't know exactly how big Cocoon is to begin with nor do we ever see the original size of the hole. Through it we can assume Orphan's shield is pretty damn strong seeing as how it took everything Fang as Ragnarok had to break through it, she was unconscious from the effort. Still not enough to beat Chaos especially with the speed advantage, flight and the explosion he survived at the end of DOC. Chaos Vincent stomps, Ragnarok or no Ragnarok.


"Still stomps Ragnarok" that's farfetched.


----------



## Adamant soul (Nov 3, 2012)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> I still don't see why you guys hold that end of DoC feat in such high regard when all it did was return both Chaos and Omega to the lifestream. The so called expolosion didn't even cause damage of any kind.





firekioken said:


> "Still stomps Ragnarok" that's farfetched.



The mere force of Chaos flapping his wings alone is enough to cause the planet to shake. He's also a top tier in FFVII which makes Mach 56 totally applicable to him, so he has a massive speed and a considerable strength advantage and could also regenerate if memory serves. It really does pain me to admit Fang loses very badly even as Ragnarok considering she is a better character by far IMO.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 3, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Why did you restrict Caius? Sephiroth has a massive speed advantage, same one Cloud has over Lightning not to mention gigaton level magic that will one-shot Caius.
> 
> Cloud has multi-block level slashes, potentially town level limit breaks vs Lightning's borderline small city durability. If Lightning survives long enough she could try summoning her Eidolons Odin and Bahamut, the latter especially could try flying into the sky and raining down megaflares (small city level) a single one of which would kill Cloud if it hit.  Cloud takes it 7/10
> 
> ...


Don't froget that Lightning receive a great power-UP from the goddes etro. She id able to clash swords with Caius, she can with Cloud too. Also she has a gun sword. Her fighting style is a mixture of melee+swordmamship(mostly kicks) plus all the magic she has and Odins power ups. She can still give Cloud problems. She has more chances


----------



## Adamant soul (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Don't froget that Lightning receive a great power-UP from the goddes etro. She id able to clash swords with Caius, she can with Cloud too. Also she has a gun sword. Her fighting style is a mixture of melee+swordmamship(mostly kicks) plus all the magic she has and Odins power ups. She can still give Cloud problems. She has more chances



She will give Cloud problems on account of her beastly durability compared to Cloud's lower DC (not low enough where his blows won't hurt her though) and she is facing the problem of only being Mach 7 in speed (calc'ed from Caius' comet barrage) vs Cloud who casually reacted to Mach 56 flares from Bahamut Sin in Advent children and even outran one to get Barrett out of the way.

That is an insane difference of speed, Lightning won't even be able to see Cloud move, her best and only real shot is summoning Odin and Bahamut, jumping on Bahamut's back, leaving Odin as a meat shield to distract Cloud while she Bahamut fly out of his reach and start raining down large AOE Megafalres. With any luck Odin will last enough and Cloud will die from the Megaflare but all this is highly unlikely given Cloud won't give her much of a chance to do anything. Lightning can get a rare win if she is really damn lucky but Cloud wins most of the time.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 3, 2012)

How about Serah, Noel, Fang vs Vincent

Fang can turn into Ragnarok at will and Serah has her tamed monsters with her


----------



## Ice (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> How about Serah, Noel, Fang vs Vincent
> 
> Fang can turn into Ragnarok at will and Serah has her tamed monsters with her


----------



## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 3, 2012)

firekioken said:


> How about Serah, Noel, Fang vs Vincent
> 
> Fang can turn into Ragnarok at will and Serah has her tamed monsters with her



Speed difference is the only way Vincent wins since I don't consider that explosion nonsense lethal. 

Serah dies.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 3, 2012)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> Speed difference is the only way Vincent wins since I don't consider that explosion nonsense lethal.
> 
> Serah dies.



Don't know what you're smoking here dude.

That explosion completely dispersed a massive cloud in seconds.

Whether it wrecked the city below or not is irrelevant.

Parting such a massive cloud takes a fuckton of energy, wasn't just a light show chuckles 

EDIT - Huh, even better?

Weiss and Vincent apparently caused that explosion a fair bit above the ground below.


----------



## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 4, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Don't know what you're smoking here dude.
> 
> That explosion completely dispersed a massive cloud in seconds.
> 
> ...



Don't really care buddy, DoC was an abomination.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 4, 2012)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> Don't really care buddy, DoC was an abomination.



I'm well aware that DoC sucks ass chuckles.

Still not going to just ignore feats from the game at my convenience though


----------



## firekioken (Nov 4, 2012)

Can Caius go into Jet Bahamut at will? Or there is something needed to trigger it?


----------



## Ulti (Nov 5, 2012)

He can do it at will.


----------



## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 5, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Don't know what you're smoking here dude.
> 
> That explosion completely dispersed a massive cloud in seconds.
> 
> ...



Its basically a big light show of them returning to the LS.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 5, 2012)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> Its basically a big light show of them returning to the LS.



>Ignores all clouds within a couple hundred kilometers of midgar were parted in seconds
>Ignores how the explosion occurred numerous kilometers above ground (after all, Omega and vincent had been flying into the air for several seconds at that point)

Aren't you just an adorably biased son of a bitch 

The cloud parting takes massive amounts of energy to accomplish you ponce


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 5, 2012)

Also... did it seriously take you all fucking day to come up with that piece of shit response?


----------



## firekioken (Nov 5, 2012)

I dont know but in Sceneario 1 and 5 I think that Caius is heavily underrated. I understand that Sephiroth is the better swordsman by far, but Caius carries a lot of chaos power by each swing of his sword. I don't know how Sephiroth can Handle that easily. Plus Caius can dash long distances also+timestop, can transform into chaos Bahamut and Jet Bahamut+2 companions. And Caius has show incredible endurance, he just keep coming. And attacks with RAW CHAOS POWER. I don't think this is very easy


----------



## Ulti (Nov 5, 2012)

Sephiroth is a magnitudes faster than Caius, his barriers will take anything Caius has and Sephiroth can one shot him with a spell like Shadow Flare.

Pretty sure you banned the Bahamuts too, even with them, Sephiroth still takes it, Caius would need prep.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 5, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Sephiroth is a magnitudes faster than Caius, his barriers will take anything Caius has and Sephiroth can one shot him with a spell like Shadow Flare.
> 
> Pretty sure you banned the Bahamuts too, even with them, Sephiroth still takes it, Caius would need prep.


I edited the battles on page 4 and also on the main post, chec them out! When did Sephiroth used Shadow Flare outside of gameplay?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 5, 2012)

firekioken said:


> I edited the battles on page 4 and also on the main post, chec them out! When did Sephiroth used Shadow Flare outside of gameplay?



Irrelevant.

Its one of his more powerful magical spells.

His barrier can block dozens gigatons of energy, thus he can funnel that much energy into his higher end magical spells/limit breaks.

After all, he's the one generating the power that makes the barrier that strong, it only makes sense he can put it to use for his stronger magical attacks.


----------



## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 5, 2012)

I believe his barrier was also tricking WEAPON into thinking he wasn't even there. How strong are WEAPON anyways? Because if killing any of them wasn't game mechanics, it might make FF7 an undoubtable rape unless I'm overestimating the things.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 5, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Irrelevant.
> 
> Its one of his more powerful magical spells.
> 
> ...


Of course is relevant. ppl say gameplay mechanics does not apply, that's means if you don't show evidence of shadow flare then your argument is invalid.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 5, 2012)

TheBlackDragonz said:


> I believe his barrier was also tricking WEAPON into thinking he wasn't even there. How strong are WEAPON anyways? Because if killing any of them wasn't game mechanics, it might make FF7 an undoubtable rape unless I'm overestimating the things.



triple digit megaton.

In canon, the turks defeated the jade weapon through unknown (well, not like we're told or given an official play by play) means.

Weapons are more or less comparable to one another, hence defeating one gives whatever attack type that defeated them triple digit megaton level firepower at a minimum.

I'd go with high end summons, given that's the easiest thing to explain the victory with in a consistent to canon power fashion.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 5, 2012)

Again gameplay mechanics does not apply on the OKBD. If you don't have proof of shadow flare or other then your argument is invalid.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 5, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Again gameplay mechanics does not apply on the OKBD. If you don't have proof of shadow flare or other then your argument is invalid.



Gameplay mechanics my ass you little shit 

Its called powerscaling.

Get over it.

I'm not entirely sure you know what the fuck gameplay mechanics are.


----------



## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 5, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> triple digit megatons
> 
> -snip-
> 
> I'd go with high end summons, given that's the easiest thing to explain the victory with in a consistent to canon power fashion.



By the bottom part, you mean that I'm better off using high-end summons like Bahamut (variable) or KotR instead of WEAPON?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 5, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Again gameplay mechanics does not apply on the OKBD. If you don't have proof of shadow flare or other then your argument is invalid.



OKBD?


----------



## Rax (Nov 5, 2012)

Outskirts Kinky Battledome


----------



## firekioken (Nov 5, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Gameplay mechanics my ass you little shit
> 
> Its called powerscaling.
> 
> ...


How are you gonna powerscale something that is completely invalid? When has Sephiroth use shadow flare outside of gameplay? Any cutscenes? Anything? What game in the FFVII compilation? Stop insulting others elitis prick!

If I don't know game mechanics you know shit!


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 5, 2012)

firekioken said:


> How are you gonna powerscale something that is completely invalid?



You really are unaware of what gameplay mechanics are...

Fucking 2012...



> When has Sephiroth use shadow flare outside of gameplay?



Its a canon power he possesses.



> Any cutscenes? Anything?



Not required chuckle fuck.

Its an ability he possesses from canon source material and his magic has feats of gigaton level power to powerscale his magic power off of.



> Stop insulting others elitis prick!



Adorable, the doggy is flustered.

I curse and berate everyone.  No exception.  I'm an asshole and more than willing to acknowledge it.

Suck it up, because I legitimately mean nothing by it further than venting irritation at brazen stupidity.



> If I don't know game mechanics you know shit!



The rebuttal of a true genius folks.


----------



## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 5, 2012)

Elitis? What's that?


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 5, 2012)

Because it's not invalid?

You seriously don't know what game mechanics is buddy.

In this instance he's scaling an attack that is known as one of his strongest spells from shit that definitively was outside of gameplay. It's perfectly valid.

Game mechanics ain't flying here.

No you see, Chaos isn't elitist (which isn't a bad thing even if he is, because he's earned it) but he doesn't fret about calling out bullshit. That's the way it generally is here. All I see is you flailing about like a fish on a hook because you've been gutted and can't do anything about it.


----------



## Sablés (Nov 5, 2012)

He meant elitist. What I want to know is what's up with the "chuckes" business.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 5, 2012)

That means that Sephiroth can use Heartless angel too then.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 5, 2012)

Your point?

heartless angel is part of his move set.

Its a crippling attack that avoids killing the person it targets as far as I'm concerned.

It'd be a no limits fallacy to assume it works on anyone with better durability than his best showings.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 5, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Your point?
> 
> heartless angel is part of his move set.
> 
> ...


Heartless angel is an ability that leaves it's victims at 1 HP, If we translate that in to fantasy battles it should leave it's victim in an extremely weaken state in wich would allow Sephiroth to finish it with one blow.

If this is true, it means that Sephiroth is a lot more stronger than we tougth. It should give him a chance at any opponent he should face

How much prep time it takes to Sephiroth use this ability?


Edit:
Wait SePhiroth has to be in bizarro/safer form in order to use thi ability, also to use Supernova he also has to be in bizzaro/safer form

Sephiroth cannot enter on these forms by himself he needs a lot of lifestream for these. In other words this moves don't apply, unless you have proof of Sephiroth using this moves outside this forms.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 5, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Heartless angel is an ability that leaves it's victims at 1 HP, If we translate that in to fantasy battles it should leave it's victim in an extremely weaken state in wich would allow Sephiroth to finish it with one blow.



Yes.



> If this is true, it means that Sephiroth is a lot more stronger than we tougth. It should give him a chance at any opponent he should face



It would only work on fuckers upwards of his highest power showing.

Anything more would suggest a no limits fallacy on an ability that clearly works off of fire power.



> How much prep time it takes to Sephiroth use this ability?



I'd assume it functions however it happens in dissidia.  Given dissidia is canon to movesets IIRC.




> Edit:
> Wait SePhiroth has to be in bizarro/safer form in order to use thi ability, also to use Supernova he also has to be in bizzaro/safer form
> 
> Sephiroth cannot enter on these forms by himself he needs a lot of lifestream for these. In other words this moves don't apply, unless you have proof of Sephiroth using this moves outside this forms.



Um... why are you assuming Sephiroth is fighting in anything but his strongest forms?


----------



## Ice (Nov 6, 2012)

Sephiroth can use Heartless Angel in base when you fight him in CC.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

Axel Almer said:


> Sephiroth can use Heartless Angel in base when you fight him in CC.


You are right, i frogot about that one.


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 6, 2012)

Well actually isn't Heartless Angel working off the durability of the opponent? So it won't work against anything higher than the durability of the opponents it's been shown to be able to be effective against?


----------



## Ice (Nov 6, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Well actually isn't Heartless Angel working off the durability of the opponent? So it won't work against anything higher than the durability of the opponents it's been shown to be able to be effective against?



Yep. Claiming otherwise would end up in NLF territory.


----------



## Ulti (Nov 6, 2012)

If you seriously get offended by what Chaos says, I suggest you get a backbone.

He calls me a 'fucker' sometimes, I don't care because I've heard worse and well...he doesn't mean it as personal attack.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Well actually isn't Heartless Angel working off the durability of the opponent? So it won't work against anything higher than the durability of the opponents it's been shown to be able to be effective against?


To anyone that heartless angel has been used agaist effectively, has always ended in 1 HP. This will make Sephiroth a very competitive oponent aggaisnt everyone. But at least Caius has shown the ability to heal himself.


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 6, 2012)

>The point.










>Your head.


----------



## Adamant soul (Nov 6, 2012)

firekioken said:


> To anyone that heartless angel has been used agaist effectively, has always ended in 1 HP. This will make Sephiroth a very competitive oponent aggaisnt everyone. But at least Caius has shown the ability to heal himself.



As Nevermind said you still didn't get the point. So far his victims of the attack have ended up with 1hp, this includes Sora, Zack and I believe the FF7 party. This means anyone with superior durability to them won't take as much or any damage at all depending on their durability level. He has only used it on characters with multi block - low town level durability, so anyone with durability above that (Caius for example) won't be nearly as effected by it. Shadow Flare will still pwn Caius' ass though.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> As Nevermind said you still didn't get the point. So far his victims of the attack have ended up with 1hp, this includes Sora, Zack and I believe the FF7 party. This means anyone with superior durability to them won't take as much or any damage at all depending on their durability level. He has only used it on characters with multi block - low town level durability, so anyone with durability above that (Caius for example) won't be nearly as effected by it. Shadow Flare will still pwn Caius' ass though.


Te only example that I have seen of shadow flare was in dissidia. 4 balls of magic towards an opponent. It does not seem that impressive


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 6, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Te only example that I have seen of shadow flare was in dissidia. 4 balls of magic towards an opponent. It does not seem that impressive



Love how the concept of powerscaling continues to elude you.

Its one of the most powerful spells in the game.

Fueled by a guy that, in his strongest incarnation, can generate gigatons of energy.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Love how the concept of powerscaling continues to elude you.
> 
> Its one of the most powerful spells in the game.
> 
> Fueled by a guy that, in his strongest incarnation, can generate gigatons of energy.


Is there any other game in the compilation of FFVII that Sephiroth uses shadow flare?

I need to see that in action, for giving a fair judgement of how powerful it is


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 6, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Is there any other game in the compilation of FFVII that Sephiroth uses shadow flare?
> 
> I need to see that in action, for giving a fair judgement of how powerful it is



You need to see jack shit.

You only need to know that at his most powerful, sephiroth can generate a magical barrier capable of blockin  for 3 seconds before breaking.  The less powerful  wouldn't have done jackshit.

Through powerscaling, his most powerful offensive attacks (shit like shadow flare and supernova) are capable of generating similar levels of energy.

I'm just going to post  for lulz (mostly because this one is its own little debate).

Is english a second language for you?  Or are you just incredibly thick?


----------



## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You need to see jack shit.
> 
> You only need to know that at his most powerful, sephiroth can generate a magical barrier capable of blockin  for 3 seconds before breaking.  The less powerful  wouldn't have done jackshit.
> 
> ...


He was being powered by the lifestream you genius!!!

In the other one he just manipulated the weather


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 6, 2012)

firekioken said:


> He was being powered by the lifestream you genius!!!
> 
> In the other one he just manipulated the weather



You're all sorts of dense, aren't you?

His most powerful form happens to get its power from the lifestream you ponce, hence when using him in a thread, we assume he's fighting at his peak where his stats are strongest.

And in the other one?  Doesn't matter, weather manipulation, magic, tk, whatever.

He generated the energy required to form that cloud.  

2012 is so fucking disappointing...


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 6, 2012)

2012. Four or five good posters with a few having decent potential.

The rest are shit.

Compare that to 2010 and '11, which for all their faults gave the OBD plenty of good posters.


----------



## Adamant soul (Nov 6, 2012)

This is still going? I'm still amazed this didn't end on the first page.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 6, 2012)

Only going still because you have a new poster, that obviously didn't lurk any, acting dense.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm still shaking my head on the notion that Tifa whose only superhuman in feats has a prayer against someone like Snow. Hell, beginning of XIII Snow was able to fight the Shiva Sisters solo. And this was after he was fucking up PSICOM soldiers.


----------



## Mordred Tumultu (Nov 6, 2012)

What more is there to say? We've already determined that FFVII trounces in all the fights, barring Tifa and very occasionally Cloud. 

However, from a few pages back, many have said that Sephiroth only fools around with Cloud... That's not quite true. WoG says Sephiroth has _never_ gone full-out on anyone or anything. So, really, you can't say he only fools around with Cloud when he's never gone to his full-potential. The notion that Caius surpasses him is laughable when we've still never seen Sephiroth's limits, and probably never will.

Sephiroth actually holds back to a massive degree, even in his final form. Super-Nova was his signature attack even before the Nibelheim Incident, as stated by his fangirl in Crisis Core. The fact that he uses it in his final form as his ultimate attack shows that he's merely using an ability he always had. Who knows what he could actually do with the power of the lifestream in him...


----------



## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 6, 2012)

Again that whole cloud crap aren't really clouds.


----------



## Not Sure (Nov 6, 2012)

I honestly don't think Lightning is going to lose against Cloud. This is the woman who took a meteor, which I'm not too sure about the size of, to the face and apparently lived long enough to continue fighting Caius afterwards.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 6, 2012)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> Again that whole cloud crap aren't really clouds.



Again, its irrelevant for reasons already stated in previous threads you ponce.

Either quit the bitching or present an actual argument.

Which you continuously fail to do every fucking thread.

Seriously, if you could at least do that much?

You wouldn't come across as an irritating son of a bitch.

Nah, fuck that noise though, you just waltz into a thread without addressing jackshit.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 6, 2012)

Not Sure said:


> I honestly don't think Lightning is going to lose against Cloud. This is the woman who took a meteor, which I'm not too sure about the size of, to the face and apparently lived long enough to continue fighting Caius afterwards.



.

.

Cloud's slashes are enough to harm her, despite being less energetic.

Mostly due to surface area shit.

Still a bitch to put down, barring the speed gap.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You're all sorts of dense, aren't you?
> 
> His most powerful form happens to get its power from the lifestream you ponce, hence when using him in a thread, we assume he's fighting at his peak where his stats are strongest.
> 
> ...


Weak ass excuse how are you expecting bizzaro/sapher forms if Sephiroth cannot enter them by normal means. Shadow flare are just black orbs as shown in dissidia. How the fuck will Sephiroth go bizzaro/safer specially in Vallhala. He went into that transformation once. Let's go over Sephiroth/Caius abilities

Sephiroth:weapon masamune
Superior swordsmanship: Able to perform multiple slashes that cannot be seen by the naked eye.Hold off and controlled a handicap match(agaisnt him) against 2 first class soldiers
Can perform long distance dashes
Has shown the ability to levitate, he can fly and teleport
octoslash: Able to create energy waves that can cut trough anything(can be blocked)
Shadow flare: a barrage of black orbs
Has never gone all out(according to AC producer)

Caius weapon Ragnarok 
Body and soul
Absolution
Blast wave
Gravition
Giga-Gravition
Inferno
Eye of Bahamut
Pulsar Bust
Dispelga
Ravager Stance
Ultima

Chaos Bahamut(Caius)
Umbral vise
Whirlwind
Ignis
Pulsar burst
Obliterating death
Megaflare

I did not added Jet Bahamut here(I don't believe Caius can go this form freely)
Srry for not covering Caius details. If I missed something let me know


----------



## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 6, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> 2012. Four or five good posters with a few having decent potential.
> 
> The rest are shit.
> 
> Compare that to 2010 and '11, which for all their faults gave the OBD plenty of good posters.



Which one am I?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 6, 2012)

Firekioken...

I have one thing to say, because clearly nothing is penetrating your thick skull.

Fucking lurk the forum, read up on general OBD assumptions.

Lurk and learn, or just leave.


----------



## Adamant soul (Nov 6, 2012)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> I'm still shaking my head on the notion that Tifa whose only superhuman in feats has a prayer against someone like Snow. Hell, beginning of XIII Snow was able to fight the Shiva Sisters solo. And this was after he was fucking up PSICOM soldiers.



Tell me about it, apparently an advantage in skill will allow her to defeat a man who's strength, speed, durability, endurance, stamina, versatility and range exceed hers by a hell of a lot . He even used Lightning knocking down Snow in the first game as an indication Tifa could do the same to XIII-2 Snow :rofl. Snow being in character would most likely have some fun with Tifa, considering he has no real reason to hurt her and he's a nice guy, block or dodge every move she makes and basically let her tire herself out.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

Not Sure said:


> I honestly don't think Lightning is going to lose against Cloud. This is the woman who took a meteor, which I'm not too sure about the size of, to the face and apparently lived long enough to continue fighting Caius afterwards.


Lightning is getting severly underrated here. She is up there, if she was able to clash swords with Caius she can also can with Cloud. In the beginning of XIII-2 she was giving a beating to Caius thx to her fighting syle(melee+swordsmanship). She also can summon Odin. She also has a good shield that was able to protect her from a big energy blast from Caius, this shield will prove very effective against Cloud specially whe he goes dual blades. Melee+swordmanship+an occasional block with her shield+ Odin is a recepy for a good fight


----------



## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 6, 2012)

That may be so, but if Bahamut ZERO is legit possible to get from the Hugeass materia and not game mechanics, then it's possible for Cloud to be able to go 'satellite cannon frenzy' with it and start spazz nuking...oh god...!

I just realized something.



Pause at about 0:52. Did Tera Flare just part clouds there? And a little earlier, there's that shockwave from the attack entering the atmosphere as well. o-e Well, I finally know how tough the damn thing is.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

TheBlackDragonz said:


> That may be so, but if Bahamut ZERO is legit possible to get from the Hugeass materia and not game mechanics, then it's possible for Cloud to be able to go 'satellite cannon frenzy' with it and start spazz nuking...oh god...!
> 
> I just realized something.
> 
> ...


Bro. none of these FFVII characters have shown summoning Bahamuts, it was Genesis on Crisis Core


----------



## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 6, 2012)

Still, wouldn't it mean anything for Bahamut itself, then?


----------



## Adamant soul (Nov 6, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Bro. none of these FFVII characters have shown summoning Bahamuts, it was Genesis on Crisis Core



Kadaj summoned a Bahamut and guess who the materia he used to do it belonged to? I'll give you a clue, he looks like a Super Saiyan in only one aspect of his appearance.


----------



## DarkSlayerZero (Nov 6, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Again, its irrelevant for reasons already stated in previous threads you ponce.
> 
> Either quit the bitching or present an actual argument.
> 
> ...



All I'm doing you correcting you which seems to cause you to sprout out cuss in every sentence.


----------



## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Kadaj summoned a Bahamut and guess who the materia he used to do it belonged to? I'll give you a clue, he looks like a Super Saiyan in only one aspect of his appearance.


Kadaj is not here

BTW
I had been wondering if that summon was from Cloud? Kadaj stole the materia chest from Cloud wich had A LOT of materia. Cloud won't carry all that Materia into battle but, who knows.

The main problem is that Cloud dint show any concern when he saw Bahamut SIN, in wich makes me wonder if it was from Cloud or not.


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 6, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Kadaj summoned a Bahamut and guess who the materia he used to do it belonged to? I'll give you a clue, he looks like a Super Saiyan in only one aspect of his appearance.



.......Goku? 

Wait, Tremor is CLOUD'S? OH SNAP XD This fight just got the tables turned. I think.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 6, 2012)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> All I'm doing you correcting you which seems to cause you to sprout out cuss in every sentence.



You're correcting jackshit.

This is a debate section.

You say something contrary to my position (in your case, you continuously lack in actual substance)

I offer a rebuttal

You either then refute my rebuttal or concede.

If you attempt to refute?  It can go back and forth a good while.

Here?

You don't bother going past the first step I mentioned.

Now, either get on with the damn rebuttal or concede your position.

@The fuckers talking about the summon animation feats - We take those at face value?  Eden can apparently galaxy bust now.


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## Ulti (Nov 6, 2012)

> Kadaj is not here



I think you might of missed the point mate.

He means that they STOLE the materia from Cloud, meaning that it was Cloud's and he has access to it.


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## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> I think you might of missed the point mate.
> 
> He means that they STOLE the materia from Cloud, meaning that it was Cloud's and he has access to it.


Did you read my post completely?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 6, 2012)

Is he really asking such a stupid question?


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## Adamant soul (Nov 6, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Kadaj is not here
> 
> BTW
> I had been wondering if that summon was from Cloud? Kadaj stole the materia chest from Cloud wich had A LOT of materia. Cloud won't carry all that Materia into battle but, who knows.
> ...



He didn't show any concern because he knew he could beat it. If anything him not showing concern supports the notion it belonged to him, how else would he be so certain he could beat it.

Of course Cloud can't carry all that materia into battle with him, doesn't change the fact that he has it if the occasion was ever to call for it. I doubt Bahamut Sin could beat Lightning anyway, as fast as his blasts were, he himself was quite slow and Lightning's eidolons, namely Odin and her own Bahamut are much more balanced fighters, even the Shiva Sisters would have a good shot at beating that thing..


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## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> He didn't show any concern because he knew he could beat it. If anything him not showing concern supports the notion it belonged to him, how else would he be so certain he could beat it.
> 
> Of course Cloud can't carry all that materia into battle with him, doesn't change the fact that he has it if the occasion was ever to call for it. I doubt Bahamut Sin could beat Lightning anyway, as fast as his blasts were, he himself was quite slow and Lightning's eidolons, namely Odin and her own Bahamut are much more balanced fighters, even the Shiva Sisters would have a good shot at beating that thing..


Yea but the big thing is that Bahamut SIN will give even more chances to win to Cloud, and he already has solid chances. The only way that this would get on an even fight is if lightning let's loose all of her monster army to entertain SIN. This fight is in Vallhala anyways

I think we should keep SIN/lightning's army out of the picture lol


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## Adamant soul (Nov 6, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Yea but the big thing is that Bahamut SIN will give even more chances to win to Cloud, and he already has solid chances. The only way that this would get on an even fight is if lightning let's loose all of her monster army to entertain SIN. This fight is in Vallhala anyways
> 
> I think we should keep SIN/lightning's army out of the picture lol



Her monster army is literally fodder to anyone involved in that fight, a single Terra Flare would probably wipe the whole thing out much like Caius' comets did. Again if Lightning did manage to summon her Eidolons, the odds might turn considerably more to her favour since two of them are easily more durable than her (Odin and Bahamut) and pack more fire power than Caius' meteor (as would Chaos Bahamut's Megaflare), either of them would smack Bahamut SIN around like a bitch. I still say Cloud has a hell of a fight on his hands with Lightning but wins more often than not, ironically the most even match here.


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## firekioken (Nov 6, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Her monster army is literally fodder to anyone involved in that fight, a single Terra Flare would probably wipe the whole thing out much like Caius' comets did. Again if Lightning did manage to summon her Eidolons, the odds might turn considerably more to her favour since two of them are easily more durable than her (Odin and Bahamut) and pack more fire power than Caius' meteor (as would Chaos Bahamut's Megaflare), either of them would smack Bahamut SIN around like a bitch. I still say Cloud has a hell of a fight on his hands with Lightning but wins more often than not, ironically the most even match here.


Are you counting Bahamut SIN as a Cloud summon in your conclusion?


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## Adamant soul (Nov 6, 2012)

firekioken said:


> Are you counting Bahamut SIN as a Cloud summon in your conclusion?



Yes, Odin casually blocked a point blank Megaflare from Chaos Bahamut (stronger than his meteor based on Lightning's reaction and Odin feeling the need to block it for Lightning) which shits on Bahamut SIN's Terra flare and Bahamut fought Chaos Bahamut to a standstill. As I said either one of them could kill Bahamut SIN easily. he really wouldn't contribute much to this fight. Cloud is better off not attempting to summon him s doing so would give Lightning a chance to summon and hers are much more dangerous than his.


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## Mordred Tumultu (Nov 6, 2012)

If Lightning gets to use her Eidolons, I see no reason why Cloud can't use his old summons, like Knights of the Round. And if we refrain from basing them on gameplay(because the two summon functions are wholly different between VII and X onwards), that makes twelve or thirteen(can't quite remember) very capable fighters coming to Cloud's aid.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 6, 2012)

Mordred Tumultu said:


> If Lightning gets to use her Eidolons, I see no reason why Cloud can't use his old summons, like Knights of the Round. And if we refrain from basing them on gameplay(because the two summon functions are wholly different between VII and X onwards), that makes twelve or thirteen(can't quite remember) very capable fighters coming to Cloud's aid.



There is a big difference there though. The Eidolons have been used in cutscenes and have actual feats so we've seen what they are actually capable of outside of gameplay. The VII summons outside of Bahamut SIN don't have that luxury. Granted the argument can be made they were used to defeat the WEAPONS since nothing suggest Cloud and his party have the strength to defeat the WEAPONS themselves but unfortunately we just don't know exactly how those things went down.


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 6, 2012)

Wait, if CC had Zero in it, and we saw what it could do there, due to the rescue the huge materia being canon(ish?), is it plausible that Cloud could actually be in possesion of ZERO as well? Can someone also pm me the link to that scene in CC? I can't find it anywhere.

Yes, I am assuming the Huge Materia sidequest shit is canon. Ignore this post if it isn't >.<


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## Mordred Tumultu (Nov 6, 2012)

I wouldn't really take that as any logical assumption. How would Cloud have gotten it? If Zack had been the one to claim it, I don't see him being able to pass it on to Cloud. Hell, the only thing he gives him is Angeal's sword. Unless Cloud looted his body, there's no way he got the materia from him. Shinra probably claimed it for Hojo's studies. 

@Adamant soul: True, the whole lack of feats thing... This is why they need to make a remake of VII for the PS3 or PS4, so that the game won't be "held back" like this.


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 6, 2012)

Has there been more than one materia of the same summon in-FF7-universe though? Sorry if I'm starting to get trollish, but I'm trying every possible pathway. Perhaps the Huge Materia Bahamut ZERO and the nuking one in CC are both ZERO, but different materia.


wow, I hope this sounds alot better than it seems like.


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## Mordred Tumultu (Nov 6, 2012)

I... I have no idea. Since there are multiple incarnations of Bahamut alone, it's certainly plausible...


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## TheBlackDragonz (Nov 6, 2012)

Let's wait to get some of the more knowledgable members (is that right way to put it without sounding like an ass?) opinions on this. Since, after all, who knows? It is truly entirely plausible with 3 in the maingame, 1 in AC, 2 at minimum in CC, and then maybe one in Before Crisis or whatever the other one was called running around.


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## firekioken (Nov 8, 2012)

Since the disscusion seem to have ended. Here are the results
Is based on wining %.  NOTE I'm mixing the overall forum opinion with my opinion to come up with this %

MATCH 1
Sephiroth=65% Caius=35%

MATCH 2
Lightning=50% Cloud=50% (lol I don't know how this one ended like this)

MATCH 3
Snow=80% Tifa=20%

MATCH 4
Vincent=55% Noel, Serah, Fang=45%(yes the LS thing was just a show, get over it)

MATCH 5
FFVII team=55% FFXIII/XIII-2=45%

Thx to everyone who participated in the thread. If you guys can come up with your own %, feel free to post them


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