# Strongest Foe Base Itachi can beat



## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2013)

Location: Chunin Exam Finals

Distance: 15 M

Mindset: Ic 

Knowledge: Manga

Restrictions: Itachi cannot use MS: Itachi is allowed his Katana

Itachi's Allowed Moveset:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Clone Great Explosion
Crow Clone Technique
Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change
Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique
Dusk Crow Genjutsu
Ephemeral
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson
Genjutsu: Sharingan
Peregrine Falcon Drop
Sensing System Pass Technique
Shadow Clone Technique
Summoning Technique (Crows)
Water Clone Technique
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique 
Water Release: Water Fang Bullet
 Ninja tools
Sword





Scenario 2: Izanami is allowed

Foes:
-Hidan
-Kakashi(Pre-Kamui)
-Gai
-Deva Path
-Jiraiya(starts in Base: Cannot use large Summons)

How does he fare individually against these 5?


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## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

Honestly I don't believe he beats anyone with his projectiles and attacks. None of Itachi's base arsenal is a real threat. Although if any of his Katon variants hits the opponent dead-on, that's a game-ender for all opponents, or a clean swift hit with the Katana to a vital area (for Hidan it's chopping either his arms or head off). But most of his opponents can dodge, block or parry his move-sets. I mean Part-1 Kakashi took a Clone Great Explosion and came out slightly injured and all these opponents are more durable than Kakashi.

*1.* Hidan would fall to a Sharingan-genjutsu, so his the only opponent I can asses as being the only one beaten.

*2.* Kakashi has way more skills and variants to beat Base Itachi, considering their fighting style is similar. It would be the person with the largest move-set to win, Kakashi just has more to work with here.

*3.* Gai is just out of Itachi's league with Gates unrestricted.

*4.* Deva pain already knows that Itachi is an Uchiha and so a Shinra-tensei ends this early.

*5.* All Jiraiya needs to do is swamp the whole place. Ontop of that he has techniques that counter Itachi's. This would be the second most closest fight to winning for Itachi. Considering Jiraiya is just as susceptible to Sharingan-genjutsu as anyone else. But as soon as Ma and Pa come out, it goes down fill for Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2013)

Jad said:


> Honestly I don't believe he beats anyone.



 Hidan....Hidan......Same man who couldn't land a hit on Kakashi with a kunai....Same man with an IQ of 100....IMO Hidan get's his head lopped off in a plethora of ways. Then Itachi burns/buries the remains....

I wanna see others opinions on the rest before giving my opinion on the rest.


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## Totsuka Blitz (Mar 3, 2013)

He definitely beats Hidan and has a good shot at Kakashi. But I believe he will lose to rest of them.


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## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Hidan....Hidan......Same man who couldn't land a hit on Kakashi with a kunai....Same man with an IQ of 100....IMO Hidan get's his head lopped off in a plethora of ways. Then Itachi burns/buries the remains....
> 
> I wanna see others opinions on the rest before giving my opinion on the rest.



No, my bad, I changed my mind very quickly. I edited my post.


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## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2013)

Jad said:


> > But most of his opponents can dodge, block or parry his move-sets. I mean Part-1 Kakashi took a Clone Great Explosion and came out slightly injured.
> 
> 
> -The only opponents who actually have feats of fighting on Itachi's level are Gai, and SM Jiraiya. Itachi was fast enough to engage KCM Naruto from long range and fight him in CqC, then pressure Bee with speed, and genjutsu, *blocking his 7 sword style with a kunai and not being hit once*. Not only this he had no problem reacting and fighting CqC with Sage Kabuto and his speed, not to mention his clone feinting him despite sensing. Itachi is much more of a threat than you are making him out to be.
> ...


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## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

I won't bother defending the others because someone else can do that. But here is a quote I took from another thread regarding the Clone Explosion.



> Could you point me to the destructive capabilities of the clone explosion? Because I remember Kisame took one large swipe at Gai and hit him directly in the stomach [1], who's strength is easily above Boulder Shattering level considering he overpowered him, and Gai took it just fine afterwards although he did spit up blood (but really it had no affect on him). I mean Kisame's strength is extraordinary, I mean look at how it rendered the water unstable like an explosion.
> 
> Plus didn't Kakashi take the hit for Kurenai albiet moving slightly away [2][3]. There was no indication he COMPLETELY avoided it as well, considering here he is slightly injured [4] and the distance between him and Itachi (whom never shown to have moved once) is about the same [5] as the first scan. Yeah it might hurt Gai's jacket is all. I mean Gai already been in a midst of an explosive force before [6]. On top of that, Gai is stated to have . Plus Gai has a large pain threshold considering the gates. All these factors play into consideration and just render the usefulness of Clone explosion as null. Plus Itachi can't keep cranking out clones because they chew up a large supply of his Chakara (especially the explosive kind).



As for being forced into eye contact, I assume you mean how Kakashi was? Gai would easily overpower Itachi in such a scenario and it would only result in him getting injured. If not beaten right than and there with a boulder shattering blow delivered by a Taijutsu expert and master.


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## Rocky (Mar 3, 2013)

Wait, is this Edo Itachi or Alive (Sick) Itachi?

Their feats are quite different....the former could trade blows with the much faster & stronger KCM Naruto (albeit at 7% Chakra) & the unpredictable Killer Bee, while Sick/Shouten Itachi was only marginally better than Hebi Sasuke & Pre-Pain Kakashi in CQC.


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## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2013)

Jad said:


> I won't bother defending the others because someone else can do that. But here is a quote I took from another thread regarding the Clone Explosion.



It's hardly debatable IMO, here we see the immense blast radius, and it is clear Kakashi needed to get Kurenai away. The fact that Kakashi is injured doesn't mean that the blast weak and he tanked it, it means that despite him making it in time to save/shield Kurenai he was still struck by a piece of the blast. Also in Itachi's case it is clear he is using a water wall, look at the direction of the water being blasted, and the out of place vertical wall in front of him in the scene I offered.

Also this jutsu is ranked as an A ranked Jutsu, and described as the following in the DB.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Kage Bunshin used as a lure. The opponent uses the principle "Attack to defeat 
the enemy", then becomes a victim of the blast...
Those who can tell that you are fighting a Kage Bunshin may be able to escape 
the blast. But preparations immediately following obvious preparations should 
catch the opponent in the jutsu.




Seeing as Itachi can weave clones like this in front of a sharingan user, It's doubtful Itachi can't force one on someone who can detect clones, or catch them at the last second.


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## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Wait, is this Edo Itachi or Alive (Sick) Itachi?
> 
> Their feats are quite different....the former could trade blows with the much faster & stronger KCM Naruto (albeit at 7% Chakra) & the unpredictable Killer Bee, while Sick/Shouten Itachi was only marginally better than Hebi Sasuke & Pre-Pain Kakashi in CQC.



It doesn't matter, Taka Sasuke clashed with Killer Bee just as long as Itachi did. Difference is plot induced stupidity resulted in Killer Bee not using his Raiton blades. As for clashing with KCM Naruto, when did Naruto become an expert in Taijutsu? They weren't even fighting in a state where speed even mattered. They were up in the air in hand to hand combat. So that really isn't a compliment. As for the clash with Sage Mode Kabuto? Well we don't know if he gets a strength upgrade with his version (it seems to allude he doesn't though), and as I remember they only clashed once. Katana to Medical Palm.


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## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> It's hardly debatable IMO, here we see the immense blast radius, and it is clear Kakashi needed to get Kurenai away. The fact that Kakashi is injured doesn't mean that the blast weak and he tanked it, it means that despite him making it in time to save/shield Kurenai he was still struck by a piece of the blast. Also in Itachi's case it is clear he is using a water wall, look at the direction of the water being blasted, and the out of place vertical wall in front of him in the scene I offered.
> 
> Also this jutsu is ranked as an A ranked Jutsu, and described as the following in the DB.
> 
> ...



To me it looked like Kakashi tanked most of the blast and was only slightly wounded, I mean he didn't even complain about it. Look at this flail jacket, it only has a few marks on it, that's all.  And the distance between where he jumped in front of Kurenai and the initial position of the clone, and his distance to the real Itachi, isn't even noticeable. I think you are overrating the Clone Explosion, and for someone like Gai who is already considered durable via databook and feats, it isn't doing much to him. I mean the explosion didn't even move Kakashi, he pretty much stayed in the exact same spot as where he saved Kurenai.


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## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Wait, is this Edo Itachi or Alive (Sick) Itachi?
> 
> Their feats are quite different....the former could trade blows with the much faster & stronger KCM Naruto (albeit at 7% Chakra) & the unpredictable Killer Bee, while Sick/Shouten Itachi was only marginally better than Hebi Sasuke & Pre-Pain Kakashi in CQC.



No Sick Itachi was not only "marginally" better than Hebi Sasuke. Despite being near dead Tobi made it quite clear that "Had Itachi been serious Sauce would have been spanked". This version is alive Itachi but healthy and not in the condition he was vs Sasuke.


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## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> No Sick Itachi was not only "marginally" better than Hebi Sasuke. Despite being near dead Tobi made it quite clear that "Had Itachi been serious Sauce would have been spanked". This version is alive Itachi but healthy and not in the condition he was vs Sasuke.



I like how he use quotation marks and than use completely different wording from the manga, in an attempt to prove Itachi could easily beat Sasuke without breaking a sweat. Come on.


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## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2013)

Jad said:


> To me it looked like Kakashi tanked most of the blast and was only slightly wounded, I mean he didn't even complain about it. I mean his flail jacket only has a few marks on it, that's it.  And the distance between where he jumped infront of Kurenai and the initial position of the clone, and his distance to the real Itachi, isn't even noticeable. I think you are overrating the Clone Explosion, and for someone like Gai who is already considered durable via databook and feats, it isn't doing much to him. I mean the explosion didn't even move Kakashi.



-No despite only being hit by a portion of the blast, Kakahshi was obviously in pain grunting so much that Kurenai gives him sympathy. It wasn't life threatning but it def wasn't pleasant, my point is being hit by the clone at point blank is deadly you really can't even deny this, look at the radius of the *water*, in air that explosion would be so much bigger, Gai has incredible durability but without gates there is no way he could tank that. You are just downplaying the jutsu, hell C rank katons are enough to make people dodge, this tech is A rank and surely would have killed Kurenai had Kakashi not intervened, look how Asuma jumps to his GF in response to the huge blast.



Jad said:


> I like how he use quotation marks and than use completely different wording from the manga, in an attempt to prove Itachi could easily beat Sasuke without breaking a sweat. Come on.



I paraphrased, you using a red herring argument to bypass the point that holding back Itachi barely lost to Hebi Sasuke(you can't really call it a loss because Itachi outlasted Sasuke in Susano and could have totsuka'd him instead o walking up to his brother to die at his feet), and Tobi made it clear that had Itachi been serious Sasuke would have been dead. Is that better? It is skipping the point, Notice Tobi's says "Had Itachi been serious" implicitly stating:
A. Itachi was not serious
B. Itachi's performance would have been staggeringly different than what we saw.

Hebi Sasuke would have died as soon as he looked Itachi in the eye.


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## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> -No despite only being hit by a portion of the blast, Kakahshi was obviously in pain grunting so much that Kurenai gives him sympathy. It wasn't life threatning but it def wasn't pleasant, my point is being hit by the clone at point blank is deadly you really can't even deny this, look at the radius of the *water*, in air that explosion would be so much bigger, Gai has incredible durability but without gates there is no way he could tank that. You are just downplaying the jutsu, hell C rank katons are enough to make people dodge, this tech is A rank and surely would have killed Kurenai had Kakashi not intervened, look how Asuma jumps to his GF in response to the huge blast.



He grunted at the pain, sure. Did it hurt, yes, I alluded to that in my post where his Jacket shows marks on the back, plus it shows in the manga. But he was not far from the clone, I mean he was about one strides length away from it. From an onlooker, the explosion looks big and deadly, but the fact of the matter is it didn't do much in the end. He grunted at the pain once, that was it. He was not debilitated by the wound anymore. Yes the explosion looks deadly and big, but that's just visual ascetics. So for someone of Gai's caliber, who is noted as having a "_body like tempered steel_", whose shown that he can take a direct it from someone who is above his own strength, which is boulder shattering, that explosion is going to do close to nothing. It will blind his vision for a second if he was caught in it, that's all. On top of that, Itachi can't keep throwing Clones that detonate, quite honestly he probably doesn't have the Chakara supply to do so anyways. And with the use of Nunchuku's, he will always have a form of distance from Itachi and thus any potential clones. So if Kakashi can pretty much take the explosion with only a few scuffs on his back and a grunt, Gai can most definitely take it without a worry in the world.

Also the Jutsu's rank should not be used an argument to prove how deadly a technique is. The rank points to only how difficult it would be to learn. I learned my lesson on that when I was proven wrong.


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## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> I paraphrased, you using a red herring argument to bypass the point that holding back Itachi barely lost to Hebi Sasuke(you can't really call it a loss because Itachi outlasted Sasuke in Susano and could have totsuka'd him instead o walking up to his brother to die at his feet), and Tobi made it clear that had Itachi been serious Sasuke would have been dead. Is that better? It is skipping the point, Notice Tobi's says "Had Itachi been serious" implicitly stating:
> A. Itachi was not serious
> B. Itachi's performance would have been staggeringly different than what we saw.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke would have died as soon as he looked Itachi in the eye.



Do I believe in what the manga said, yes, Itachi could have beaten him. But spanked him? Like Itachi would have an easy time, no. I was pointing to your way of speaking of Itachi that makes it hard to debate with you. Because you could mean "Itachi would have beaten Sasuke" end of story, but you say it in a way that comes across totally different like "Itachi would have had an easy time with Sasuke and beaten him". The way you interpret Itachi is what I am talking about, it makes it hard to have a proper debate with you.


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## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2013)

> He grunted at the pain, sure. Did it hurt, yes, I alluded to that in my post where his Jacket shows marks on the back, plus it shows in the manga. But he was not far from the clone, I mean he was about one strides length away from it. From an onlooker, the explosion looks big and deadly, but the fact of the matter is it didn't do much in the end.


-What you are not understanding is that Kakashi was not in the main blast range. I have said countless of times taking the clone from point blank range is deadly. Kakashi grabbed Kurenai and got out of that range, Itachi was also not actively trying to kill them as he is a pacifist, and was a double agent at the time. 




> He grunted at the pain once, that was it. He was not debilitated by the wound anymore. Yes the explosion looks deadly and big, but that's just visual ascetics.


-He got hit and grunted at the pain, we don't know if he was actually debilitated because the fight didn't last much longer, but had he been hit in the main blast range(pretty much were Kurenai was in relation the clone) he would not have been standing.You can't just knock it off to visual ascetics, the blast was that big and noted for this and ranked and A ranked move. You are just brushing off facts when they don't suit your side and cherrypicking data.



> So for someone of Gai's caliber, who is noted as having a "_body like tempered steel_", whose shown that he can take a direct it from someone who is above his own strength, which is boulder shattering, that explosion is going to do jack shit. It will blind his vision for a second if he was caught in it, that's all.


-That is hyperbole, while Gai may be strong enough to brake boulders and what not he is still made of skin, bone and muscle and not steel. Taking a blast to the face from point blank range isn't something that he can just shrug off giving him slight vision problems, he would be seriusly damaged, the same with Itachi's katon's(which injured Cursed marked Sasuke, and burned Sameheda).



> On top of that, Itachi can't keep throwing Clones that detonate, quite honestly he probably doesn't have the Chakara supply to do so anyways. And with the use of Nunchuku's, he will always have a form of distance from Itachi and thus any potential clones. So if Kakashi can pretty much take the explosion with only a few scuffs on his back, Gai can most definitely take it without a worry in the world.


-Itachi does not have a low chakra supply. He learned the Fire jutsu at age 7 and Kakashi stated for a 12 year old Sasuke to be using it was exceptional. Itachi's display of his base arsenal + extended MS use(Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu 2X, and susano vs Sasuke's kirin and Oro) while on his deathbed also speaks to his good chakra pool, and endurance. I'm not saying that Itachi is a chakra monster but he does not suffer from poor stamina that is an invalid misnomer applied to him due to him being debilitated by MS. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Itachi has a low chakra pool akin to Kakashi pt. 1 who showed that: he could only use 1 sharingan limitedly, could only use Raikiri a couple times a day, and was exhausted after Zabuzua fight. Itachi is nothing like this barring MS drawbacks. In this fight Itachi doesn't have MS to wory about meaning he can focus his chakra. 

In his fight vs Hebi Sasuke Itachi matched Sasuke jutsu vs jutsu and used MS and still outlasted Sasuke, imagine if he just converted the MS chakra into other techniques that don't require a much chakra, and wouldn't hurt his body.. Base Itachi is not worrying about stamina here.



Jad said:


> Do I believe in what the manga said, yes, Itachi could have beaten him. But spanked him? Like Itachi would have an easy time, no. I was pointing to your way of speaking of Itachi that makes it hard to debate with you. Because you could mean "Itachi would have beaten Sasuke" end of story, but you say it in a way that comes across totally different like "Itachi would have had an easy time with Sasuke and beaten him". The way you interpret Itachi is what I am talking about, it makes it hard to have a proper debate with you.


-No because in this case I mean exactly what you thought, Serious Itachi would have murderstomped Hebi Sasuke. Without MS there is no way for Sasuke to counter Itachi, and even with MS it was stated Sasuke was severly gimped in genjutsu compared to Itachi, evidenced y Sasuke never actually being able to completely do a tsukuyomi. Sasuke wouldn't even have been able to beat Itachi in a genjutsu match, either. Ama and Susano = insta rape as well. There is no real debate here, he gives Itachi mid diff at best.


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## Bjorn (Mar 3, 2013)

-He defeats Hidan (obvious)
-Kakashi is a strong oppenent, but with his intelligence superiority,his analysis and his genjutsu feints itachi should be able to pull it off.
-he loses to all the others.


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## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> -What you are not understanding is that Kakashi was not in the main blast range. I have said countless of times taking the clone from point blank range is deadly. Kakashi grabbed Kurenai and got out of that range, Itachi was also not actively trying to kill them as he is a pacifist, and was a double agent at the time.



You are completely and utterly wrong, he was about one strides length away from the clone that exploded. He was definitely in the thick of the explosion. I proved it to you, go read the scans I provided, look at them carefully. You are ignoring the facts and it’s right in front of you. I would draw you a picture but it’s right there. Kakashi was about one strides length away from the clone when he moves in on Kurnei. Take a note between Kakashi’s distance and the clone. Now look at Kakashi’s distance to the real Itachi, did you take a mental image of how far he was the first time? Is he in a completely different position far from the original Itachi after the explosion? So before the explosion he was a strides length away from Itachi. After the explosion he is no more closer to Itachi than before. It suggests he didn’t move. 



> -He got hit and grunted at the pain, we don't know if he was actually debilitated because the fight didn't last much longer, but had he been hit in the main blast range(pretty much were Kurenai was in relation the clone) he would not have been standing.You can't just knock it off to visual ascetics, the blast was that big and noted for this and ranked and A ranked move. You are just brushing off facts when they don't suit your side and cherrypicking data.



The only area that you see the damage being inflicted on is his back.  No scuff marks are visible on his front, face, pants, arms, hands, no blood, nothing. He got injured on his back, which makes sense; the explosion hit him from the back. He grunts ONCE at the pain, that’s it. He doesn’t seem to be significantly injured. There really isn’t much to it. It was hot air or chakara exploding, that’s it. He got hit in the back, he grunts at the pain, nothing more nothing less. I already noted that your points, whether it looked big or not, the explosion only minimally damaged Kakashi. The rank of Jutsu is only how difficult it was to learn. I have already proven to you the distance Kakashi was in relation to the explosion, he took the main blast and came out with a few marks on his back.



> -That is hyperbole, while Gai may be strong enough to brake boulders and what not he is still made of skin, bone and muscle and not steel. Taking a blast to the face from point blank range isn't something that he can just shrug off giving him slight vision problems, he would be seriusly damaged, the same with Itachi's katon's(which injured Cursed marked Sasuke, and burned Sameheda).


I like how you use the Databook to prove a point, but when I bring it up you completely disregard it. The Sandaime Raikage is skin, bone and muscle, Ei is skin, bone and muscle. It’s his TOUGHNESS that is related to Tempered Steel, from the very same databook you used. Am I now not allowed to use it? As for the explosion comparisons, Kisame’s strength  with one arm was so powerful he caused a mini Tsunami, compare that to the Clone explosion where no such thing happened. That proves how much larger the water explosion was in comparison to the one used against Kakashi, and Gai took it all to the stomach/chest area. On top of that Gai is feat wise and noted in the data book, to shatter boulders, yet his strength with both arms was no match for Kisame with one. That should easily warrant Gai’s being able to tank something Part-1 Kakashi took with only a mark on his back and a grunt in pain.



> -Itachi does not have a low chakra supply. He learned the Fire jutsu at age 7 and Kakashi stated for a 12 year old Sasuke to be using it was exceptional. Itachi's display of his base arsenal + extended MS use(Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu 2X, and susano vs Sasuke's kirin and Oro) while on his deathbed also speaks to his good chakra pool, and endurance. I'm not saying that Itachi is a chakra monster but he does not suffer from poor stamina that is an invalid misnomer applied to him due to him being debilitated by MS. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Itachi has a low chakra pool akin to Kakashi pt. 1 who showed that: he could only use 1 sharingan limitedly, could only use Raikiri a couple times a day, and was exhausted after Zabuzua fight. Itachi is nothing like this barring MS drawbacks. In this fight Itachi doesn't have MS to wory about meaning he can focus his chakra.


When in relation to Gai, his stamina will not out last his, and the amount of techniques he can throw at him which will hit is close to none. Considering Gai won’t have much of a problem at Base keeping up, blocking and parrying attack after attack while Itachi gets weaker and weaker using ninjutsu technique after technique. Especially clone variants where they split your chakra up with every use.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2013)

Itachi cannot beat Gai, Deva Path and Kakashi.

Against Gai, he loses because 7th Gate will obliterate his defenses, especially considering what it was able to do against Madara's malformed Susano'o. Itachi is not an edo and has been shown to have a frail constitute to boot, he gets with Afternoon Tiger, he gets squashed, plain and simple. Itachi's best chance is to use finger genjutsu but Gai hardly makes eye-contact with anything other then users feet, unless it's shown Itachi can cast genjutsu with his feet, Gai crushes him.

Kakashi defeats him with multiple ranged elemental ninjutsu techniques  in conjunction with clone feints to put him down. Kakashi is essentially  a more polished Itachi with larger ninjutsu arsenal and unlike in their prior squabbles, Kakashi's overshot Itachi in the base realm, Sharingan Kakashi vs. Sharingan Itachi, will always favor Kakashi simply due to their skill level and intelligence always being a moot point.

Deva Path just ST's him into an oblivion.


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## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2013)

Jad said:


> > You are completely and utterly wrong, he was about one strides length away from the clone that exploded. He was definitely in the thick of the explosion. I proved it to you, go read the scans I provided, look at them carefully. You are ignoring the facts and it’s right in front of you. I would draw you a picture but it’s right there. Kakashi was about one strides length away from the clone when he moves in on Kurnei. Take a note between Kakashi’s distance and the clone. Now look at Kakashi’s distance to the real Itachi, did you take a mental image of how far he was the first time? Is he in a completely different position far from the original Itachi after the explosion? So before the explosion he was a strides length away from Itachi. After the explosion he is no more closer to Itachi than before. It suggests he didn’t move.
> 
> 
> I never claimed he shunshined away, you are using strawman arguments now. Notice if you will how I said Kurenai's original position would have been the deadliest. She was crouched right next to the clone unshileded, Kakashi lunged from underneath the water to grab her and take her from point blank blast range(where the jutsu is meant for.)
> ...


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## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

Nothing I can say will change your mind from what I have gathered, you have many inconsistencies in your post and many fallacies. If I continued you would only create more and more fallacious arguments and we would find ourselves talking about rasengans vs chidori's randomly. I think you underrate Gai and overrate Itachi and with such views there is no hope in continuing. I rather not waste my time and attempt to prove my point when I know there is no hope. Plus I doubt anyone reads long passages from an argument between two users, so there isn't any incentive in continuing either.


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## Dr. White (Mar 3, 2013)

Jad said:


> Nothing I can say will change your mind from what I have gathered, you have many inconsistencies in your post and many fallacies. If I continued you would only create more and more fallacious arguments and we would find ourselves talking about rasengans vs chidori's randomly. I think you underrate Gai and overrate Itachi and with such views there is no hope in continuing.



Informal concession accepted.

You realize I am not arguing for Itachi winning?(well technically) I said Gai wins Mid diff.....My point is that Gai is not shrugging off the clone explosion jutsu in base from point blank range, and his tactic of avoiding sharingan is far from full proof considering Itachi's speed, and ability to swiftly decieve even sharingan users with clones: not to mention the fact that Itachi can utilize genjutsu with his hands. All these factors have yet to be countered by you and I am saying they will make the match harder for Guy and could potentially give Itachi then win, but more often than not he would lose overall.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 3, 2013)

> Nothing I can say will change your mind from what I have gathered, you have many inconsistencies in your post and many fallacies. If I continued you would only create more and more fallacious arguments and we would find ourselves talking about rasengans vs chidori's randomly. I think you underrate Gai and overrate Itachi and with such views there is no hope in continuing. I rather not waste my time and attempt to prove my point when I know there is no hope. Plus I doubt anyone reads long passages from an argument between two users, so there isn't any incentive in continuing either.


Lol Dr. White not agreeing that Itachi loses?

What a surprise. Look at his avatar, look at his signature, look at the threads he makes. Itachi, Itachi, ITACHI. 



> Informal concession accepted.


He said this same thing to me after I decided to no longer quote war him. 

I'm not one to hate, but this dude pushed me into a 3-day ban when I called him and his arguments generally retarded.

I gave up, then Rocky gave up, and now Jad gave up. All against Dr. White- in Itachi threads. 

There's a pattern here... and it needs to be addressed by a moderator.


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## Rain (Mar 3, 2013)

*-Hidan*

Itachi-san ends the fight with sharingan genjutsu and decapitation.

*-Kakashi(Pre-Kamui)*

Kakashi-sensei is slower than Itachi-san and less skilled in taijutsu arts. He needs Kamui to beat Itachi.

*-Gai*

Gai is very stronk character who liekes to use taijutso but he can't look Itachi in the eyes, thus can't see dem katons. 

Once Gai enters gates he should win this matchup.

*-Deva Path*

Itachi should be able to exploit 5 seconds interval with his weapons/katons and hit him.

*-Jiraiya*

Jiraiya hasn't shown resistance against genjutsu.
IC Jiraiya won't use Yomi Numa on a single small opponent.
He is also far slower and less skilled in CQC.
He wins if he manages to enter SM (unlikely, given the location)


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## Baroxio (Mar 3, 2013)

Jiraiya should switch places with Gai if this is a gauntlet. Gated Gai is the most fearsome person on this list. Itachi without MS can't beat either Gai nor Deva under these conditions, but the rest pretty much get the Orochimaru treatment.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2013)

He beats Hidan  with Genjutsu combos. With Kakashi I don't know what you mean by Pre-Kamui. If you mean Part I Kakashi, than Itachi would win, but if you just mean Kakashi w/ Kamui restricted than Kakashi would most likely win high difficulty. 

All the rest of them would beat him. Gai overwhelms with Gates. Deva overwhelms with Shinra Tensei, BT, GM, etc...  J-man overwhelms with Senjutsu.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 3, 2013)

Scenario 1: Base Killer B or any of the Sannin in their base forms.

Scenario 2: With Izanami, the strongest Itachi can beat is probably pre-Rinnegan Obito or Sandaime Raikage; someone with a highly repetitive/limited attack pattern who he can evade long enough to set up the loop.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Extremely simple and bias post
> 
> -Gai doesn't go insta gates, so he isn't gonna rape Itachi with 7 gates from the start. Itachi has ample enough time to try and set up a genjutsu through use of clones and his speed before Gai decides to end things, crows can also be very helpful.
> -Itachi does not have a frail constitution...? He got his arm crisped by Sasuke's brick busting Fire Dragon Jutsu, he got impaled in the leg by a huge shuriken edge and kept fighting on it, and fought Hebi sasuke all the time holding back *while terminally ill*. You guys drag his MS drawbacks and Sickness out to extreme levels I swear(in reference in reaching by saying Itachi has a low chakra pool and frail constitution)


I don't care if Itachi was already at death's door when he fought Sasuke, Sasuke was never a speedy physical power-house that would merit a comparison with likes of Gai and Raikages. Furthermore just cause he survived a katon technique doesn't mean he'd survive a kick from one of the physically strongest shinobi barring perhaps Tsunade and the Raikages. Gated Gai stomps.



Dr. White said:


> -Kakashi's only long range ninjutsu are Raiton Dog, and Suiton. Raiton get's countered by Katon, and suiton get's countered by..you guessed it suiton, I don't see how you gave him the advantage there especially considering Itachi is faster speedwise, and handseal wise. Kakashi doesnt have counters to actually getting caught in genjutsu(assuming feints don't work) and is outskilled and outsmarted here.


Kakashi in Part 1 was able to respond to Itachi's jutsu speed, saying that Kakashi wouldn't be able to now is like dismissing all feats and improvements Kakashi has shown since then, which is probably the most asinine of your points in there.

How does Raiton get countered by Katon? 

And I didn't guess anything, Suiton gets countered by Doton. Kakashi is the worst possible match-up for Itachi if you were to only debate elemental techniques as Kakashi has the superior affinity of all elements that Itachi can use.

Kakashi has a mastery of genjutsu greater than or equal to Hebi Sasuke, all of his regular non-MS genjutsu's will most likely be seen through by Kakashi.



Dr. White said:


> Like he did Kakashi?


Basically, what happened to Kakashi in the Invasion Arc is what would happen to a MS-restricted Itachi, in fact Itachi would lose much faster.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 3, 2013)

MS-less Itachi would've fucked Pain in half and then tracked down Nagato and proceeded to beat him to death with his own legs.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2013)

Niku's Itachi > RS > Sage Hashirama > everyone else


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## Nikushimi (Mar 3, 2013)

Itachi>Hashirama is canon, though.

He is pretty much the Sage of the Six Paths of Solo.


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## Cyphon (Mar 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Location: Chunin Exam Finals
> 
> Distance: 15 M
> 
> ...



I don't know any specific character I would pick as the strongest but I would say the max level person he would beat is around elite Jounin. An example of who he could beat would be Kurenai and maybe Asuma, not not those like Kakashi and Gai. So it really just varies from person to person. But in general I would say he could compete consistently with the mid to high level elite Jounins.


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## Bonly (Mar 3, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Foes:
> -Hidan



Itachi should win this more times then not. it seems as if everyone in the Akatsuki knew Hidan+Kakuzu as immortals of some kind. To keep this short and sweet, Itachi can use a genjutsu to take Hidan out for a few seconds and follow it up by cutting his head off for a win. 



> -Kakashi(Pre-Kamui)



Itachi should have this more times then not. Back in part one reacted to Itachi's Suiton but the handseal speed was too fast for Kakashi to follow.With Itachi ability to make clones pretty fast to help attack in CQC. With the ability to put Kakashi in a genjutsu with just a finger would allow Itachi to take advantage of the few seconds to take out Kakashi or land a deadly blow. Kakashi won't be able to land a good clone feint as he can only do it by going underground but Itachi has already fell victim to that and likely will be on the lookout for it. If this was current Kakashi then it would've been better but pre Kamui Kakashi can't win.



> -Gai



To keep this short and sweet, one Gai enter gates, Itachi is done for. Gai fights by looking at a sharingan users feet so genjutsu for the most part won't work on Gai. Gai can dodge the Katons and Sutions that Itachi uses and Gai's Bukijutsu is good enough to not easily get beat by Itachi in CQC. Gai would win more times then not.



> -Deva Path



Itachi isn't winning without his MS. Deva was able to dodge a FRS whiletakign out two of Naruto's clones(1)(2)(3)(4). Deva path can hold his own in CQC as well as use a ST and take Itachi out. Add in Deva's paths CST+CT is just overkill. Itachi loses more times then not. 



> -Jiraiya(starts in Base: Cannot use large Summons)



Hate to be that kind of guy but Doton: Yomi Numa is gonna screw Itachi over. He has no way to get out of it without the Yata Mirror and Jiraiya can just dodge Itachi's Katons+Suitons as well as Genjutsu not really gonna work as Jiraiya wouldn't be stupid enough to look into his eyes. Itachi loses more times then not.



> How does he fare individually against these 5?



He does good and can take out the first two but loses against the last 3.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 3, 2013)

The Tobi comment references Itachi not going all out on Sasuke. That doesn't mean Itachi held everything he did back, that means he didn't use Susanoo to harm Sasuke. We know this as Itachi didn't even use Susanoo to so much as touch Sasuke.
Since his death, Susanoo has been more explored and the knowledge of the partial Susanoo uses makes it clear what Obito meant.

The idea it referenced any other Itachi is baseless considering what we saw from the fight and what we saw after.

-Hidan
-Kakashi(Pre-Kamui)
-Gai
-Deva Path
-Jiraiya(starts in Base: Cannot use large Summons)

He beats Hidan and Kakashi.
Gai I'm iffy about, so I'm going to say no as I don't think base Itachi can do much against the gates.

God Realm can break Itachi's bones with a powerful Shinra Tensei, Itachi may have a defense with Susanoo, but the MS is banned here.
Jiraiya will beat Itachi, no doubt. Base Itachi isn't a massive threat to a shinobi like Jiraiya, it is MS Itachi who is the threat. On top of that, Jiraiya's allowed Sage Mode and the Ni Dai Sennin.


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## gawsome (Mar 3, 2013)

Btw, why Izanami and no Izanagi?

*Hidan*
Itachi barely breaks a sweat. 

*Kakashi*
I'm sorry but Kakashi pre-kamui is a little fucked. Pt1 Kakashi gets exhausted quickly from a lack of stamina - particularly when using sharingan. Itachi, on the other hand, has an Uchiha body a has no such disadvantage. Yes they fight in similar ways and yes, Kakashi has a wider variety of jutsu. The longer the fight goes on the mroe disadvantaged Kakashi is and we know that Itachi has i) top tier smarts ii) top tier reactions iii) bloody good speed....

Itachi high difficulty 8/10

*Deva Pain*
No, I'm sorry, if Deva wants to win this he can. CST / CT / BT -> chakra rod are all capable of fucking Itachi's shit up in a big way, well before Itachi figures out a decent counter to Deva. 

Deva mid difficulty 8/10

*Jiraiya*

Ah, the old classic. Hmmm a proper, non-poisoned, yomi numa most likely gets Itachi here. If he summon's ma/pa and hits a dust-bowl + frog song then it's also over. Now, I'm going to make the assumption that Ma/Pa took time to summon because it was a hermit mode fusion and Jiraiya doesnt even need that of them here. Jiraiya has experience and a broad variety of jutsu to avoid being rushed.

Jiraiya also knows all about base sharingan...

Jiraiya mid-high difficulty 8/10

*Gai*

This is the most variable fight as far as I see it. They both know each other's styles and have a high degree of respect for each other. Gai has his sharingan counter strategy but that leaves him at risk of not seeing seals (and thus exploding bunshins) and being open to a finger genjutsu. On the other hand, if Gai decides that he's outgunned then he may well hit the gates early...if he does, Itachi is toast.

50/50 - depends if Gai hits the overkill button early.

*Answer*

The strongest on the list that Itachi can beat, reliably, is Kakashi.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2013)

Wait, does this mean it's Part 1 Kakashi or just Current Kakashi without Kamui?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 3, 2013)

Can Itachi use his crow to place opponents under illusions?




Dr. White said:


> -Hidan



A basic illusion gives Itachi the opportunity to decapitate him.



> -Kakashi



Can you specify which version of Kakashi you're referring to, Dr. White?



> -Gai



Until further notice, Gai will be stuck inside Ephemeral/Utakata - whether he opens the Gates or not - and this provides an opening to close the distance and land a devastating attack. Even then, Itachi can outlast Gated Gai through feints and trickery. 

I don't think that is a pressing issue, however, because the aforementioned method will work splendidly. 



> -Deva Path



Similar to Kakashi, Itachi can find a way around his abilities with sheer aptitude and intelligence; his durability is abnormally high, though, considering he happens to be a reanimated corpse.

If Itachi can land Izanami before CST/CT are used, he can technically come out victorious. That shouldn't be a demanding task, either!



> -Jiraiya



At a mere 15 meters, Jiraiya will be placed under an illusion and roasted with a Katon; this bout isn't very debatable, to be frank. In a nutshell, he receives similar treatment to Orochimaru, and it is quite apparent that the former has weaker resistance. From an observer's perspective, a Sharingan heir can nullify genjutsu with a lesser degree of difficulty, but this notion is completely irrelevant (particularly without the eyes).

Apropos their previous meeting, Itachi would never eliminate a powerful combatant from Konoha.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 3, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Wait, does this mean it's Part 1 Kakashi or just Current Kakashi without Kamui?



I took it as part 1 Kakashi as it he mentioned "pre-Kamui" Kakashi.


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## Hossaim (Mar 3, 2013)

He beats Hidan and Kakashi handily, and can maybe beat Gai extreme difficulty, but he can't match Deva's power.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I took it as part 1 Kakashi as it he mentioned "pre-Kamui" Kakashi.



Wouldn't pre-Kamui Kakashi be like...14? And featless, aside from the Gaiden?


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## Nikushimi (Mar 3, 2013)

I mean, Kakashi awakened MS at the same time as Obito. I guess we don't really know for sure how long he's been able to use Kamui, though...

Also, I don't think there's a big difference between part 1 Kakashi and current MS-less Kakashi aside from stamina.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 3, 2013)

I assumed the OP meant part 1 Kakashi because that's the Kakashi we know that never used Kamui. Or at least never knew he could use Kamui, arguably.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I took it as part 1 Kakashi as it he mentioned "pre-Kamui" Kakashi.


Oh wow, this thread might have been a sneaky underhanded spite thread to humiliate Kakashi 

If that's the case, Fuck you OP 


Nikushimi said:


> I mean, Kakashi awakened MS at the same time as Obito. I guess we don't really know for sure how long he's been able to use Kamui, though...
> 
> Also, I don't think there's a big difference between part 1 Kakashi and current MS-less Kakashi aside from stamina.


Well, a whole boatload of feats and he's gotten faster speed wise too.


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## Cyphon (Mar 3, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Well, a whole boatload of feats and he's gotten faster speed wise too.



I dunno about increased speed but we also shouldn't overlook having far more experience from tons of battles vs very strong opponents.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2013)

Obito made a comment on it when Kakashi engaged him outside the Iron Country but perhaps he was just being coy.


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## Cyphon (Mar 3, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Obito made a comment on it when Kakashi engaged him outside the Iron Country but perhaps he was just being coy.



Is this about speed you mean? 

Can you link me please?


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2013)

Cyphon said:


> Is this about speed you mean?
> 
> Can you link me please?


Not entirely because he was able to blitz the fuck out of Kakuzu and he's still only supposedly half a tier faster than him. Half a tier isn't that absurdly great of a gap that someone wouldn't even notice.

As for the iron country one, here's the scan.


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## Empathy (Mar 3, 2013)

Here you are. Obito's tone was more sarcasm than genuine admiration, also that's a feat of _shunshin_ (which is a ninjutsu). I don't think Kakashi should've ascended to 5 tier speed by now. There's definitely a sizable difference between base Kakashi and Part I Kakashi, though I wouldn't say they're universes apart.

*Edit:* Blitzed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2013)

Ughh stop posting pre obito scans of Tobito, reminds me how big of a retcon he is 


On topic : 

I think he beats all of them, unless Kakashi opts for a off the bat Kamui.

Itachi has lots of ways to leave them vulnerable with a genjutsu + bunshin feint combination, with Kakashi being the exception due to sharingan. Though Kakashi can't match Itachi @ a head on clash due to being inferior in seal speed(and speed in general) and he can't except to counter all of Itachi genjutsu perfectly(given a perfect Jin barely made it).


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## Santoryu (Mar 4, 2013)

Itachi has a decent shot at beating most of the opponents' he has been
 pitted against, apart from Gai that is, who would take the match convicingly once he enters the higher-gates. The matches against Deva and base Jiraiya can go either way. If by pre-Kamui Kakashi you mean part 1 Kakashi, Itachi would overwhelm him.




> I think he beats all of them, unless Kakashi opts for a off the bat Kamui.



It's a "pre-Kamui Kakashi", so I don't know why you're bringing that up, but you're mistaken-a Kakashi with access to Kamui would make base Itachi his girlfriend. But since people are refrencing Kakashi's later showings....

 Current base Kakashi would defeat base Itachi with high difficulty. Kakashi's base ninjutsu adequately counters Itachi's; his Suitons cancel out Itachi's Katons due to the elemental cycle. Kakashi has already proved that he can outsmart Itachi, they are comparable in taijutsu as evidenced by the manga, and Kakashi is fast enough to physically contend with multiple V2 Jins in an exhausted state; even Obito praised his speed, as Ryuzaki already noted.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 4, 2013)

Databook 2 said that Kakashi's speed was like a whirlwind if that means anything to you guys talking about Kakashi's speed.

Nevertheless I doubt Kakashi will blitz Itachi; I doubt Itachi would blitz Kakashi. In canon, neither of them did in the two times they encountered each other. 
Blitzing isn't as practical as everyone seems to imply it is; there's a reason Naruto didn't spam his blitzing speed with KCM so often; there's a reason he didn't even try to constantly blitz people with Sage Mode.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> It's a "pre-Kamui Kakashi", so I don't know why you're bringing that up, but you're mistaken-a Kakashi with access to Kamui would make base Itachi his girlfriend. But since people are refrencing Kakashi's later showings....


Well given Kamui is a highly circumstantial plot device, I doubt it would be too easy for his part. 

But yeah, I didn't pay attention to the op. No need to bring that up it seems.



> Current base Kakashi would defeat base Itachi with high difficulty.


Nope.avi



> Kakashi's base ninjutsu adequately counters Itachi's; his Suitons cancel out Itachi's Katons due to the elemental cycle.


Itachi can also use suitons, and he can fire them up faster than Kakashi can, because of this superior insight and handseal speed.



> Kakashi has already proved that he can outsmart Itachi,


You mean a shouten Itachi with help.
Not the same thing no.




> they are comparable in taijutsu as evidenced by the manga,


Sure they are comparable. Itachi is better though both in hand to hand and with weapons.

I don't get why people kind of neglect all kinds of differences(even if they are slight) when it comes to Itachi vs Kakashi.




> and Kakashi is fast enough to physically contend with multiple V2 Jins in an exhausted state; even Obito praised his speed, as Ryuzaki already noted.


Being fast enough to contend with mindless fodder V2 isn't the same as being able to conted with Naruto & B casually.

But yeah, Kakashi isn't much slower than Itachi but again, there is a difference you can't just ignore.


Itachi & Kakashi have similar fighting styles. Both rely on bunshin feints and reading the opponents next move.
With a difference. Itachi has also mastery over genjutsu.
And he is faster, and more insightful. Kakashi can surely put up a fight but he'll lose ground with every passing second and get defeated eventually.


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## lordcloud121 (Mar 4, 2013)

Hidan Wins Mid Diff
Kakashi Loses High Diff
Gai Loses Low Diff (with all the gates Itachi is fodder without MS compared to him)
Deva Path Loses Low Diff
Jiraiya Loses Mid Diff


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 4, 2013)

Shouten Itachi and Itachi were the same, nothing indicates otherwise.... _Except_ that Shouten Itachi didn't have enough chakra to use the MS. That was the only difference. 
Everything down to Taijutsu skill, intelligence and Ninjutsu skill and quality was the same.

So if Kakashi showed he could outsmart base Itachi, then he could. Regardless or not if it was Shouten Itachi. In fact Kakashi kept up well with the real Itachi and it was the _latter_ who chose to use the MS shortly upon Kakashi's arrival.

Kakashi was able to outsmart base Itachi after fighting him only once, how he has the knowledge of two encounters. Itachi was impressed how much Kakashi could deduce from one battle; Gai said _no-one_ he knows of (meaning not even Itachi) beats Kakashi with analytical skill.

In short: the idea of Kakashi outsmarting Itachi isn't so shocking. *Especially* when he has shown he can outsmart superior opponents such as Pain and Obito.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Shouten Itachi and Itachi were the same, nothing indicates otherwise.... _Except_ that Shouten Itachi didn't have enough chakra to use the MS. That was the only difference.
> Everything down to Taijutsu skill, intelligence and Ninjutsu skill and quality was the same.
> 
> So if Kakashi showed he could outsmart base Itachi, then he could. Regardless or not if it was Shouten Itachi. In fact Kakashi kept up well with the real Itachi and it was the _latter_ who chose to use the MS shortly upon Kakashi's arrival.
> ...



yeah yeah and Susano'o was the only thing that set Hebi Sasuke & Itachi apart.


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## Rocky (Mar 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Being fast enough to contend with mindless fodder V2 isn't the same as being able to conted with Naruto & B casually.



Please. 

Please, explain in detail how Obito's Version 2 Pein Rikudou became "mindless fodder." 

Please. In detail. Considering they _beat_ _the_ _shit_ out of RM Naruto, the same Naruto who was able to trade blows evenly with Itachi, I'm very interested to hear your explanation.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Please.
> 
> Please, explain in detail how Obito's Version 2 Pein Rikudou became "mindless fodder."
> 
> Please. In detail. Considering they _beat_ _the_ _shit_ out of RM Naruto, the same Naruto who was able to trade blows evenly with Itachi, I'm very interested to hear your explanation.



They'r mindless fodder because a) they don't retain consciousness when Tobi uses them 
b ) They are fodder because they are totally expandable and  they barely have any feats.

And they didn't beat the shit out of Naruto, they all attacked from different directions, and outmanuvered him when he was basically doing nothing and standing there.

When did Kakashi find himself in a similar situation ?


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## Empathy (Mar 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Please. In detail. Considering they _beat_ _the_ _shit_ out of RM Naruto, the same Naruto who was able to trade blows evenly with Itachi, I'm very interested to hear your explanation.



It's worth noting that Naruto faced the same assault Kakashi and Gai are so often accredited for, and came out looking better. Naruto faced three jinchuuriki and Kakashi and Gai faced three jinchuuriki. Kakashi and Gai were batted away by one, while Naruto was seen catching one of their attacks and ready to connect with _Rasengan_ before it transformed. Naruto and Bee faced a considerably more well-executed coordinated assault earlier compared to the jumbled, disorganized group attack used later. Kakashi and Gai would've fared no better in their situation. I reckon Naruto and Bee are superior in close-quarters. Kakashi's feat is probably something Itachi can replicate with similar results and vice-versa.


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## Rocky (Mar 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They'r mindless fodder because a) they don't retain consciousness when Tobi uses them



They're controlled by Obito using the same method that Nagato uses to control Pain. They aren't mindless. Han, for example has the brain of Obito, just as Asura or Tendo had the brain of Nagato.



> b ) They are fodder because they are totally expandable and  they barely have any feats.



You're kidding, right.

The Version 2 Jinchuriki are expendable? How? They have no feats? What about against Naruto? They have more feats/panel time than V2 Bee, is he fodder?



> And they didn't beat the shit out of Naruto, they all attacked from different directions, and outmanuvered him when he was basically doing nothing and standing there.





In other words, they beat the shit out of him. They were able to beat the shit out of him _because_ they could outmaneuver & strike from different directions, but that doesn't change the conclusion. 

It was not Naruto's choice to get spanked. He didn't stand there and take a beating for his health.



> When did Kakashi find himself in a similar situation ?



When they rushed at him & Gai:



Just as they rushed at Naruto & Bee:


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## Empathy (Mar 4, 2013)

The two instances are vastly different, Rocky. Though I guess the charge is similar. I'll provide links if you need them.


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## Rocky (Mar 4, 2013)

Empathy said:


> The two instances are vastly different, Rocky. Though I guess the charge is similar. I'll provide links if you need them.



Explain how, I'm willing to listen.

Though just keep in mind that my original point is that he was able to at least keep up with them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> They're controlled by Obito using the same method that Nagato uses to control Pain. They aren't mindless. Han, for example has the brain of Obito, just as Asura or Tendo had the brain of Nagato.


In otherwords they are puppets without minds of their own.



> You're kidding, right.
> 
> The Version 2 Jinchuriki are expendable? How? They have no feats? What about against Naruto? They have more feats/panel time than V2 Bee, is he fodder?


They don't.
B is a significant character, those fodder jin's aren't.

You are basically implying that Nagato's Hell realm or Asura path were significant. 
But no, mindless puppet with barely any feats = fodder.

We are just to assume that they are strong because they are jins. Thats the extend of their power.



> In other words, they beat the shit out of him. They were able to beat the shit out of him _because_ they could outmaneuver & strike from different directions, but that doesn't change the conclusion.
> 
> It was not Naruto's choice to get spanked. He didn't stand there and take a beating for his health.



Yes, 5 or 4 against 1 can be different than 1on1. 

And like I said, Naruto just stood there and basically did nothing. Didn't even attempt to move or dodge.
And in the end, he was barely harmed.

I don't get how they beat the shit out of him. They hit him once or twice without any significant damage. 




> When they rushed at him & Gai:
> 
> 
> 
> Just as they rushed at Naruto & Bee:



How conveniently you ignore the page after. _shit_

Kakashi takes 1. Gai takes 1. The other 3 go after Naruto. And 1 page later Gai & Kakashi get pushed back by 1 _shit_

Are you sure you are reading the same manga as I do ? Because your definition of the situation is pretty manga contradictory.


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## Rosencrantz (Mar 4, 2013)

Itachi just can't beat Gai and Jiraiya. I will not even discuss their bases cause Jiraiya's base is stronger than Itachi. With HM as well though and no MS for Itachi, he gets demolished.

Gai's base can definitely keep up with Itachi. But with gates, he just gets murked. 

Deva Path wins too. Shinra Tensei nulls taijutsu/ninjutsu and even with the 5 second interval and Deva's power split Kakashi still needed Chouza/Chouji to break the interval. Itachi likely can not do it efficiently alone before being killed. Not the most durable of characters and Deva can easily exploit that.

Kakashi loses. Definitely. People not realize that this is part 1 Kakashi? Pre-Kamui. Now I have not read every post in this thread but that seems to mean part 1 Kakashi. The one that used a Kage Bunshin and his sharingan for a short time and was exhausted afterwards. Kakashi can keep up for a brief time but will fade fast.

Hidan? Hmm... genjutsu should work here. But Itacbi can stab him which will wake him up. And without chakra flow or monstrous strength, Itachi may not be able to behead him with one swing. And if he can not. then Hidan wakes up while Itachi just wastes chakra on genjutsu. Just depends on whether Itachi can get a clean cut or not by beheading him. 

And lol fighting RM Naruto? You mean the one that was weakened/held back and when Itachi was an Edo. He is not an Edo and his opponents are not weakened and holding back. So irrelevant.



Ryuzaki said:


> Not entirely because he was able to blitz the fuck out of Kakuzu and he's still only supposedly half a tier faster than him. Half a tier isn't that absurdly great of a gap that someone wouldn't even notice.
> 
> As for the iron country one, here's the scan.



That was a sneak attack. Kakuzu blitzed him back then right? Those are called sneak attacks. Be smarter with your points. Sound like Javale McGee.


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## Jυstin (Mar 4, 2013)

Anyone at around Bee's level (without Hachibi, though it'd still probably be a hell of a fight) and lower.

If "base" means "no MS" and not "no Sharingan", then I don't think there's an opponent in the OP Itachi cannot beat, but he'd need the Sharingan for Kakashi, Gai, Jiraiya, and most likely Deva Pein. If Jiraiya enters Sage Mode, though, Itachi's fucked, even if he drags it out.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 5, 2013)

Part 1 Kakashi loses to Sharingan Itachi, mostly because of the lack of stamina, Current Kakashi is a different story.





Rosencrantz said:


> That was a sneak attack. Kakuzu blitzed him back then right? Those are called sneak attacks. Be smarter with your points. Sound like Javale McGee.


Even so, sneak attack or not, half a tier difference isn't that huge where he wouldn't even sense him approaching.


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## Rosencrantz (Mar 5, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Part 1 Kakashi loses to Sharingan Itachi, mostly because of the lack of stamina, Current Kakashi is a different story.
> Even so, sneak attack or not, half a tier difference isn't that huge where he wouldn't even sense him approaching.



That's a testament to Kakashi's stealthiness and Chouji/Shikamaru's distraction ability. Kakuzu was much closer and Kakashi could not evade. That mean Kakashi was blitzed? Kisame was sneak attacked by Gai. Yet every other time the two face each other Kisame blocks Gai and can react to him no problem. What was the difference? Kisame actually KNEW Gai was there. Kakashi's sneak attack on a slower/distracted shinobi is completely and utterly irrelevant here. Itachi is not distracted, is faster, has the sharingan i.e. better reflexes, and Kakashi is not engaging in a sneak attack in which Itachi does not even know Kakashi is on the battlefield.

Kakashi definitely loses to Itachi though. Pre-Kamui i.e. Part 1. Meaning a few minutes with his sharingan out and Kakashi is exhausted.


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## TheGreen1 (Mar 6, 2013)

He stops at Hidan, since all the others could stomp his happy ass unrestricted. Heck, even restricted, most of them could do it. Fukusaku and Shima can still be used without Sage Mode for Jiraiya


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## Kakashi Hatake (Mar 6, 2013)

Apart from Kakashi, Gai and Deva Path, he beats all of them. 

Jiraiya and Hidan lose really badly from opening genjutsu bombardment. Lets not forget that Jiraiya looked right into Itachi's eyes in the first encounter, so there is no reason to believe he won't do the same again. He loses from genjutsu + Kunai combo, one cut of his hand will end the match. 

Gai is to fast for Itachi to deal with and Kakashi has extensive knowledge for him to lose against Base Itachi. Deva is to overpowered for Itachi.


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## Bonly (Mar 6, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Apart from Kakashi, Gai and Deva Path, he beats all of them.
> 
> Jiraiya and Hidan lose really badly from opening genjutsu bombardment. Lets not forget that Jiraiya looked right into Itachi's eyes in the first encounter, so there is no reason to believe he won't do the same again. He loses from genjutsu + Kunai combo, one cut of his hand will end the match.
> 
> Gai is to fast for Itachi to deal with *and Kakashi has extensive knowledge for him to lose against Base Itachi.* Deva is to overpowered for Itachi.



How would pre Kamui Kakashi beat base Itachi?


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## Dr. White (Mar 6, 2013)

For clarification Pre Kamui Kakashi is Rescue Gaara Arc Kakashi, without access to Kamui. So essentially the same one that fought shouten Itachi.


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## Remsengan (Mar 6, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Apart from Kakashi, Gai and Deva Path, he beats all of them.
> 
> Jiraiya and Hidan lose really badly from opening genjutsu bombardment. *Lets not forget that Jiraiya looked right into Itachi's eyes in the first encounter, so there is no reason to believe he won't do the same again.* He loses from genjutsu + Kunai combo, one cut of his hand will end the match.
> 
> Gai is to fast for Itachi to deal with and Kakashi has extensive knowledge for him to lose against Base Itachi. Deva is to overpowered for Itachi.



The reason is that Jiraiya has counters to genjutsu.  In fact, he had dispelled a genjutsu Itachi had placed moments before he arrived and Kisame noted the speed in which he dispatched it.

There are also other possible reasons for Jiraiya to have looked in Itachi's eyes.  He could have known Itachi was a double agent, it may have been a tactical decision, ect ect.  The implication that Jiraiya looked into Itachi's eyes because he didn't know any better is a reason that _you_ contend, and it's a bad reason with no founding.

Jiraiya knew of Itachi's existence in Akatsuki without Itachi realizing, he is well versed in Doujutsu backgrounds, he knows the basics of genjutsu and he knows Itachi wields the Sharingan and uses genjutsu because of the women he encountered.

There may have been a reason for Jman to look Itachi in the eyes, but it wasn't for lack of knowledge.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Mar 6, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> For clarification Pre Kamui Kakashi is Rescue Gaara Arc Kakashi, without access to Kamui. So essentially the same one that fought shouten Itachi.



In that case, Kakashi also loses this match. 



Remsengan said:


> The reason is that Jiraiya has counters to genjutsu.  In fact, he had dispelled a genjutsu Itachi had placed moments before he arrived and Kisame noted the speed in which he dispatched it.
> 
> There are also other possible reasons for Jiraiya to have looked in Itachi's eyes.  He could have known Itachi was a double agent, it may have been a tactical decision, ect ect.  The implication that Jiraiya looked into Itachi's eyes because he didn't know any better is a reason that _you_ contend, and it's a bad reason with no founding.
> 
> ...



Anyone can break someone else out of genjutsu, even Konohamaru could do it. So don't make it like Jiraiya breaking two civilians out of genjutsu actually mean anything. 

Everything else you said is just speculation.


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## Remsengan (Mar 6, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Anyone can break someone else out of genjutsu, even Konohamaru could do it. So don't make it like Jiraiya breaking two civilians out of genjutsu actually mean anything.
> 
> Everything else you said is just speculation.



The major point being is that Jiraiya has enough knowledge to not look into Itachi's eyes.  It's not speculation that:


Jiraiya knew Itachi was in Akatsuki whilest the latter wasn't aware.
Jman knew Itachi was proficient in sharingan genjutsu -- this is the major point
He also broke sharingan genjutsu notably fast -- note the use of "already".

So, from scans Jman canonically knows of Itachi's usage of genjutsu.  The reason why he stared into Itachi's eyes is speculation on your part, not mine.  But either way, it wasn't for lack of knowledge.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 6, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> For clarification Pre Kamui Kakashi is Rescue Gaara Arc Kakashi, without access to Kamui. So essentially the same one that fought shouten Itachi.


Does that mean no feats from anything after that?


Bonly said:


> How would pre Kamui Kakashi beat base Itachi?


Isn't that the same thing as Shouten Itachi with a bit more chakra?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 6, 2013)

Itachi advised his opponent to not make eye contact to avoid his Genjutsu. According to Itachi, this is easy for high leveled opponents to achieve. That does have some implications with how Jiraiya would deal with Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu, coupled with the fact he knew about it.


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## eyeknockout (Mar 6, 2013)

destroys hidan, barely loses to kakashi, barely loses to gai until 6th or higher comes out then he gets destroyed,  beats jiraiya, not sage mode though


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## Matty (Aug 2, 2016)

He's not beating Sasori man.... give it up


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## The_Conqueror (Aug 2, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi>Hashirama is canon, though.
> 
> He is pretty much the Sage of the Six Paths of Solo.


Scans .proofs and feats please


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