# Itachi vs. Tsunade [Read OP]



## Ryuzaki (Jul 30, 2016)

*Distance:* 25 meters
*Location: *Sasuke vs. Itachi
*Mindset: *IC
*Knowledge: *Manga
*Restrictions: *Amaterasu, Totsuka, Izanami, Izanagi
*Stipulations: *Itachi is healthy and can see perfectly (Normal Tier 2.5 Stamina Increased to 3.5)

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Bonly (Jul 30, 2016)

Well Itachi doesn't really have anything that can put down Tsunade besides Tsukuyomi and we all know he isn't outlasting her so it depends on whether or not he can land it imo upon which I'd say it could go either way thanks to his clones and jutsu speed


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Jul 30, 2016)

if susano'o isn't restricted, he blitzes her head off/crushes her like a grape  at close-to-mid range with an initial arm manifestation.
this happens pretty early on w/ the intel.

I don't think people realize just how heavily the plot nerfs certain things, really...

Reactions: Dislike 2


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 30, 2016)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> if susano'o isn't restricted, he blitzes her head off/crushes her like a grape  at close-to-mid range with an initial arm manifestation.
> this happens pretty early on w/ the intel.


Yes, he drops what appears to be her dead body but she uses Sozo Saisei to get back up, steal the Totsuka & chop him in half low dif.


> I don't think people realize just how heavily the plot nerfs certain things, really...


Psh, tell me about it.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 30, 2016)

*Restrictions: *Amaterasu, Totsuka, Izanami, Izanagi

She eventually beats him up.  Through Susano if need be.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 30, 2016)

*Spoiler*: __ 









Itachi has a better feat with his finger.
Tsunade defeated 12 year old Naruto with 1 finger.
Itachi defeated 15 year old Naruto with 1 finger.

Itachi wins this.




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Restrictions: *Amaterasu, Totsuka, Izanami, Izanagi
> 
> She eventually beats him up.  Through Susano if need be.



Her best feat is busting Madara's V1.5 after consecutive hits, when Madara wasn't retaliating.
Itachi dismembers her with a Karate chop and throws her upperbody to the orbit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 5 | Dislike 1


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 30, 2016)

Her best feat is hitting Madara's big boy Susano so hard it's head spun around on it's shoulders.

I'm not willing to grant Itachi's partial Susano the level of durability of a higher Susano from a Susano specialized mangekyo specialist who made it from HashiMadara super double reincarnation science! chakra that she still rocked the block off.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Sapherosth (Jul 31, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Her best feat is hitting Madara's big boy Susano so hard it's head spun around on it's shoulders.
> 
> I'm not willing to grant Itachi's partial Susano the level of durability of a higher Susano from a Susano specialized mangekyo specialist who made it from HashiMadara super double reincarnation science! chakra that she still rocked the block off.




V4 Susano shits on any version of Madara's Susano outside PS.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Her best feat is hitting Madara's big boy Susano so hard it's head spun around on it's shoulders.



Which instance are you referring to ?
I don't recall her damaging anything beyond V1.5, which she did after consecutive hits combined by the Gokage.
She is not doing any significant damage to V3. She probably can't even put a dent on it, let alone inflict damage if her hits get blocked.



> I'm not willing to grant Itachi's partial Susano the level of durability of a higher Susano from a Susano specialized mangekyo specialist who made it from HashiMadara super double reincarnation science! chakra that she still rocked the block off.



Its not up to you to grant such things. They are granted in the manga.
The highest level Susano'O Madara used against Gokage prior to PS was the legged V3 he used with clones. Other than having legs and being taller, I highly doubt there is a durability difference between that and his non legged V3.
It will be like saying your chest would be less durable if I chopped off your legs.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## ~M~ (Jul 31, 2016)

Lol. A super nerfed susanoo can't kill tsunade. High difficulty win on her part...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2016)

Itachi's V2 was able to Karatechop through Nagato's arms and his mechanical parts which were strong enough to restrain B. 

We've also seen that slicing her into half can stop her. 

Connect the dots.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 31, 2016)

"We've also seen that slicing her in half can stop her" 

*when she's already used all of her chakra
*when she's busy healing four other Kage instead of putting herself back together
*when her summon isn't on the field connecting her bisected body
*when her opponent is physically capable of slicing her in half 

High diff win, but Tsunade beats through his Susano'o and clobbers a worn-out Itachi eventually.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Veracity (Jul 31, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She didn't need consecutive hits to bust Madara's Sussano. She did it in one, by herself.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

Honestly, this fight can go either way depending on what Tsunade and Itachi decide to do. If Tsunade simply decides to start the fight by going Byakugo and punching the ground then Itachi is sent flying away and she follows up with a punch that he can only react to with Susanoo. But from that point on, she pounds his Susanoo into oblivion and eventually reaches Itachi himself and kills him with one punch. If Tsunade decides to go Byakugo and attack Itachi himself then she runs into either a Karasu or Daibakuha Bunshin that either disperses into crows and plant her in a genjusu; or violently explodes stunning her and leaving her open to be attacked either way: by either a Susanoo sword or with Tsukuyomi. If Itachi uses his Susanoo sword then he'd likely stab her in the stomach, and she'll just play dead like she did against Madara since Itachi won't have knowledge on her capabilities and then she breaks free and jumps his Susanoo and pounds him into oblivion again. 

However, if he decides to use Tsukuyomi while she's distracted then he could win because it can kill people within less than a second. Though with the Byakugo, it may simply keep Tsunade alive and allow her to persevere through whatever psychological damage she is suffering from. Once Itachi realizes this, he could simply use his Susanoo sword to try and kill her, and there's no evidence that Itachi can maintain Tsukuyomi and simultaneously use Susanoo. So she'd break free and go ham on him again, though this is all based on whether or not Itachi decides to stab her in the abdomen or simply chop her head off: which will lead to her dying. But since Susanoo users tend to simply go for regular body stabs and Itachi doesn't know she is basically immortal, he'll probably stab her in the abdomen and she'll break free and then pound away. So I go with Tsunade more times than not.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 31, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> V4 Susano shits on any version of Madara's Susano outside PS.



Okay, so like, you say that, and you believe that, but being insistent or crude doesn't make it true or convince me.  I could tell you, "It just doesn't, full stop" but to you that response would just feel like a waste of your time.  Thank you for making your feelings known?  Iunno, not trying to be mean, I'm just not sure what you expected.  If you have some interesting reasoning you'd like to give me to try and convince me or explain your interpretation, that would be cool.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Which instance are you referring to ?
> I don't recall her damaging anything beyond V1.5, which she did after consecutive hits combined by the Gokage.
> She is not doing any significant damage to V3. She probably can't even put a dent on it, let alone inflict damage if her hits get blocked.



The one where everything thinks she got behind the Susano and punched in the back of the head.  She actually jumped in it's face and punched his head backwards.  

I think some people wanted to read it that way to give her a speed feat instead of another strength feat, but to me attacking someone from the front and not having them be able to do anything about it is a more impressive speed feat anyway.



> Its not up to you to grant such things. They are granted in the manga.
> The highest level Susano'O Madara used against Gokage prior to PS was the legged V3 he used with clones. Other than having legs and being taller, I highly doubt there is a durability difference between that and his non legged V3.
> It will be like saying your chest would be less durable if I chopped off your legs.



First off, it is up to the readers how we want to interpret the of the mad scribblings of the overworked mangaka.  Second on, I think it'd be rather stupid to have ribcage be exactly as durable as all other versions of Susano.  It'd just be a waste of chakra to manifest more than a ribcage until you go to perfect Susano, and I'm not sure why you'd suddenly think it only just gets better once it reaches perfect stage instead of it being a process if you're using that logic train anyway.  In the manga, constructing more of Susano was always treated as an upgrade, and it really wouldn't be if there was no benefit.  The more Susano Sasuke invoked, the more it represented is growth in power and his loss of sanity, and if we want to talk about narrative design, Madara's susano was designed after the God Emperor of Tengu, while Itachi's was the Tengu Cheif/King and Sasuke was a soldier Tengu, mirroring their positions within the Uchiha hierarchy at the time Madara was a legendary head honcho.  Each Uchiha also specialized more in one aspect of the Mangekyou more than the others.  Itachi was best at genjutsu, so he was best with Tsukiyomi, and preffered it.  Sasuke was best at ninjutsu, so he had enton and far more control of Ameterasu than Itachi, and preferred to eyeball black fire.  Madara was all about Susano and spammed the ever loving hatred out of it, even using it with no eyeballs.  So if Sasuke's black fire is better than Itachi's black fire, and Itachi's MS genjutsu is better than Sasuke's MS genjutsu, it stands to reason that the dude who was the best of them with Susano would have a quantitatively better Susano.

(I thought V3 with legs is generally referred to as V4 which is all fan named anyway, but does show people generally viewed it as an upgrade.)  That's the reasoning behind my stated interpretation on the scribbles.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Itachі (Jul 31, 2016)

Since Itachi still has access to Susano'o and Tsukuyomi, which give him good methods of putting her down, I think that Itachi has a very good chance. Itachi has a hell of a lot to work with while Tsunade has comparatively very little. He's not going to get caught off guard by Tsunade's strength when he sees her destroying a Bunshin as well as her surroundings with a single punch. This means he's very unlikely to try and tank a punch from her, since he frequently uses Bunshin and Genjutsu trickery in his fights. This also means that he's unlikely to be defeated by a Tsunade who is playing possum. Itachi still has Bunshin, Genjutsu and standard elemental Ninjutsu to throw Tsunade off. No doubt that Tsunade can tank Itachi's elemental Ninjutsu, but she doesn't want her vision to be blocked by a fireball, nor does she want her balance to be thrown off by a Suiryudan. Itachi is also very speedy and has displayed a certain amount of tactical prowess which means he can put those tools to very good use while Tsunade is not speedy and her reflexes are far below Itachi's. Characters like Hebi Sasuke and Kakashi have had trouble following Itachi's movements and Itachi outperformed Sasuke at some moments during their battle with Kabuto.This is the man that had enough time to create a Kage Bunshin during a heated shuriken exchange without a Sharingan user noticing. The disparity in speed also lessens the chances of Tsunade playing possum and punching Itachi's lights out. Worst comes to worst, Itachi pulls out Susano'o. Not saying that Itachi wins 100% of the time, I just think he has a better shot.

Tsunade's going to find it very hard to actually nab Itachi when she has to physically punch a frequent Bunshin using trickster who is not only faster than her, but also has better reflexes and more tools in his belt.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 31, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Since Itachi still has access to Susano'o and Tsukuyomi, which give him good methods of putting her down, I think that Itachi has a very good chance. Itachi has a hell of a lot to work with while Tsunade has comparatively very little. He's not going to get caught off guard by Tsunade's strength when he sees her destroying a Bunshin as well as her surroundings with a single punch. This means he's very unlikely to try and tank a punch from her, since he frequently uses Bunshin and Genjutsu trickery in his fights. This also means that he's unlikely to be defeated by a Tsunade who is playing possum. Itachi still has Bunshin, Genjutsu and standard elemental Ninjutsu to throw Tsunade off. No doubt that Tsunade can tank Itachi's elemental Ninjutsu, but she doesn't want her vision to be blocked by a fireball, nor does she want her balance to be thrown off by a Suiryudan. Itachi is also very speedy and has displayed a certain amount of tactical prowess which means he can put those tools to very good use while Tsunade is not speedy and her reflexes are far below Itachi's. Characters like Hebi Sasuke and Kakashi have had trouble following Itachi's movements and Itachi outperformed Sasuke at some moments during their battle with Kabuto.This is the man that had enough time to create a Kage Bunshin during a heated shuriken exchange without a Sharingan user noticing. The disparity in speed also lessens the chances of Tsunade playing possum and punching Itachi's lights out. Worst comes to worst, Itachi pulls out Susano'o.
> 
> Tsunade's going to find it very hard to actually nab Itachi when she has to physically punch a frequent Bunshin using trickster who is not only faster than her, but also has better reflexes than her and more tools in his belt.



This is all true, but it doesn't address the inverse situation where Tsunade proves impervious to all of Itachi's chakra-exhausting jutsu.

With manga knowledge, Tsunade almost certainly brings out Katsuyu straight away, knowing all too well the risks of fighting a genjutsu-wielding Uchiha by herself. 

Taijutsu-wise, he's physically incapable of blitzing Tsunade. His taijutsu is below hers, and his speed, while certainly a lot higher, isn't anywhere near high enough that he can do something ridiculous like slice off her head with a kunai without her being able to do jack squat. Orochimaru was also a tier and a half ahead of Hiruzen when they duked it out in CQC, but the latter still disarmed Orochimaru and ended up grabbing him for the Shiki Fujin. Itachi is better at taijutsu than Orochimaru, but then Tsunade is also faster than Hiruzen was. Itachi's best advantage is that he has sharingan precognition, boosting his reaction speed and evasion, however, even if Tsunade's hits miss, they blow up the ground upon contact and force him into the air, where he'll be hit regardless. 

In ninjutsu, he has Katon, which she effortlessly evades, and suiton, which he's even less skilled in. Then there's Kage Bunshin, which might serve as ample distractions if not for the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of acid-spitting slugs surrounding them. They're too busy trying to evade omni-directional attacks to be capable of effectively dealing with Tsunade. Even if the slugs are slow, there are far too many of them for even the real Itachi to be capable of evading without Susano'o protection. At best, Itachi creates a few KB, they shunshin at Tsunade and (very) temporarily avert her attention before being destroyed by Katsuyu. Itachi uses this short time-frame to attack the real Tsunade while he's shrouded in Susano'o, but his attack, whatever it might be, is reduced to a fruitless attempt before her Byakugou.

And that leaves Tsukuyomi, meaning he has to engage her directly in CQC, something he absolutely doesn't want to do, but that he does anyway because he's out of options. Between his KB and fast, multi-directional techniques, he _might_ be able to eventually position her in such a way that he can make eye contact and seal the deal. Thats if Katsuyu Bunshins don't hinder his physical performance too much. Assuming he's successful, then Tsunade falls over, and it looks like she isn't going to get up. But given how quickly and effortlessly she healed the damage it inflicted to Sasuke, even that is no guarantee of her defeat.

The mental damage he inflicted ie. the destruction of brain cells, is probably regenerated like any other cell damage, and the blood flow that was cut from her brain due to a lack of oxygen gets mitigated because Byakugou creates new red blood cells. Effectively, she should defy all laws of science and stand up again. If, for some reason, Byakugou is incapable of healing a form of damage that the infinitely weaker Shosen was capable of, then Katsuyu camps on her unconscious body and heals her until she wakes up.

Then Itachi starts to shit himself. He takes to camping in Susano'o, and expending the last of his chakra in an endless assault of Katons, explosive Bunshin and any other high-power ninjutsu that he can pull out of his Narnia-sized ass. But he simply can't exhaust her - her Byakugou reserves are colossal, and his own chakra reserves are fading. He loses the ability to produce Bunshin, and as his Susano'o power starts to dwindle, she shatters through his defenses and KOs.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The one where everything thinks she got behind the Susano and punched in the back of the head.  She actually jumped in it's face and punched his head backwards.
> 
> I think some people wanted to read it that way to give her a speed feat instead of another strength feat, but to me attacking someone from the front and not having them be able to do anything about it is a more impressive speed feat anyway.


There is no visual damage, she didn't break Susano'O, she just toppled it over.
Lets also not ignore the fact that it was a bunshin and was being treated like fodder like all bunshins do.

We actually saw her against Madara's V1.5(I call it V1.5 because it is the V2 without the head and the arms), and we know the extend of damage she can inflict.



> First off, it is up to the readers how we want to interpret the of the mad scribblings of the overworked mangaka.  Second on, I think it'd be rather stupid to have ribcage be exactly as durable as all other versions of Susano.  It'd just be a waste of chakra to manifest more than a ribcage until you go to perfect Susano, and I'm not sure why you'd suddenly think it only just gets better once it reaches perfect stage instead of it being a process if you're using that logic train anyway.In the manga, constructing more of Susano was always treated as an upgrade, and it really wouldn't be if there was no benefit.  The more Susano Sasuke invoked, the more it represented is growth in power and his loss of sanity,



I was referring to you granting Madara's Susano'O more strength, there is no indication or implication of such thing in the manga. Its not something you are interpreting, its something you are making up.
As for ribcage being less durable than the higher stages, I said nothing regarding that.



> and if we want to talk about narrative design, Madara's susano was designed after the God Emperor of Tengu, while Itachi's was the Tengu Cheif/King and Sasuke was a soldier Tengu, mirroring their positions within the Uchiha hierarchy at the time Madara was a legendary head honcho.  Each Uchiha also specialized more in one aspect of the Mangekyou more than the others.  Itachi was best at genjutsu, so he was best with Tsukiyomi, and preffered it.  Sasuke was best at ninjutsu, so he had enton and far more control of Ameterasu than Itachi, and preferred to eyeball black fire.  Madara was all about Susano and spammed the ever loving hatred out of it, even using it with no eyeballs.  So if Sasuke's black fire is better than Itachi's black fire, and Itachi's MS genjutsu is better than Sasuke's MS genjutsu, it stands to reason that the dude who was the best of them with Susano would have a quantitatively better Susano.



Again, none of this is in the manga. I haven't seen any implications of any of this in the manga either.




> (I thought V3 with legs is generally referred to as V4 which is all fan named anyway, but does show people generally viewed it as an upgrade.)  That's the reasoning behind my stated interpretation on the scribbles.



V3  :
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

V4 :
Link removed
Link removed

Having legs might be an upgrade to mobility, but other than that I don't see how it would become any more durable without the extra layer of muscle tissue or armor.

The upgrade in stages, thus upgrades in durability/strength occur when Susano'O changes appereance as more layers are added on to it.
V1 is like a mini version with the ribcage and occasionally arms, V2 is like a skeleton, in V3 there is muscle tissue and a light armor surrounding and with V4 we get a tengu hood and an extra layer of armor.

There is no need to assume that Madara's legged V3 would be any more durable than its non legged V3 because there is no added layers on it. And there is also no need to assume that Madara's V2 or V3 are any more durable than Itachi or Sasuke's V2 or V3's respectively.
And logically Itachi's V4 should be alot stronger than Madara's V3.



Likes boss said:


> She didn't need consecutive hits to bust Madara's Sussano.



Her first hit cracked it, then Mei hit it with her Sution and then Tsunade kicked it from the front while at the same time A hit it from the back.



> She did it in one, by herself.


It happened exactly the way I described it. So no, she didn't.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Itachі (Jul 31, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> With manga knowledge, Tsunade almost certainly brings out Katsuyu straight away, knowing all too well the risks of fighting a genjutsu-wielding Uchiha by herself



I agree that having Katsuyu on her shoulder is a good counter to Genjutsu, but Byakugo is a better counter.



> Taijutsu-wise, he's physically incapable of blitzing Tsunade. His taijutsu is below hers, and his speed, while certainly a lot higher, isn't anywhere near high enough that he can do something ridiculous like slice off her head with a kunai without her being able to do jack squat. Orochimaru was also a tier and a half ahead of Hiruzen when they duked it out in CQC, but the latter still disarmed Orochimaru and ended up grabbing him for the Shiki Fujin. Itachi is better at taijutsu than Orochimaru, but then Tsunade is also faster than Hiruzen was. Itachi's best advantage is that he has sharingan precognition, boosting his reaction speed and evasion, however, even if Tsunade's hits miss, they blow up the ground upon contact and force him into the air, where he'll be hit regardless



If I remember correctly, Itachi blitzed Hebi Sasuke with Shunshin before the latter could move a finger. I definitely don't think he's going to behead her or anything, but he can use Tsukuyomi on her. Engaging in CQC with Tsunade is definitely not in Itachi's best interests.

Why would Tsunade's hits destroy the ground? If she was aiming straight ahead that wouldn't happen and if she was aiming downwards towards Itachi would probably jump away, given that he has witnessed her strength. He would have engaged her first with a Bunshin, so I don't see this being a problem.



> In ninjutsu, he has Katon, which she effortlessly evades, and suiton, which he's even less skilled in. Then there's Kage Bunshin, which might serve as ample distractions if not for the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of acid-spitting slugs surrounding them. They're too busy trying to evade omni-directional attacks to be capable of effectively dealing with Tsunade. Even if the slugs are slow, there are far too many of them for even the real Itachi to be capable of evading without Susano'o protection. At best, Itachi creates a few KB, they shunshin at Tsunade and (very) temporarily avert her attention before being destroyed by Katsuyu. Itachi uses this short time-frame to attack the real Tsunade while he's shrouded in Susano'o, but his attack, whatever it might be, is reduced to a fruitless attempt before her Byakugou.



These Ninjutsu are not effective by themselves, but in combination with Bunshin feints they certainly are effective. They can block LOS and force Tsunade to move as well as create openings.

Since when has Tsunade ever used that tactic? Why would she use such a tactic in an enclosed place where she's likely to get tagged by the acid of 'thousands of acid-splitting slugs'? Even if she does use such a tactic, Itachi can just use Susano'o for a short burst and.. move.



> And that leaves Tsukuyomi, meaning he has to engage her directly in CQC, something he absolutely doesn't want to do, but that he does anyway because he's out of options. Between his KB and fast, multi-directional techniques, he _might_ be able to eventually position her in such a way that he can make eye contact and seal the deal. Thats if Katsuyu Bunshins don't hinder his physical performance too much. Assuming he's successful, then Tsunade falls over, and it looks like she isn't going to get up. But given how quickly and effortlessly she healed the damage it inflicted to Sasuke, even that is no guarantee of her defeat.



Unless you're including Tsukuyomi in the combat aspect, Itachi doesn't have to engage in CQC since he can just Shunshin close to her and use Tsukuyomi, like he did to Hebi Sasuke; an opponent with better reflexes than Tsunade. Again, I don't think Tsunade's likely to employ such a tactic.



> The mental damage he inflicted ie. the destruction of brain cells, is probably regenerated like any other cell damage, and the blood flow that was cut from her brain due to a lack of oxygen gets mitigated because Byakugou creates new red blood cells. Effectively, she should defy all laws of science and stand up again. If, for some reason, Byakugou is incapable of healing a form of damage that the infinitely weaker Shosen was capable of, then Katsuyu camps on her unconscious body and heals her until she wakes up.
> 
> Then Itachi starts to shit himself. He takes to camping in Susano'o, and expending the last of his chakra in an endless assault of Katons, explosive Bunshin and any other high-power ninjutsu that he can pull out of his Narnia-sized ass. But he simply can't exhaust her - her Byakugou reserves are colossal, and his own chakra reserves are fading. He loses the ability to produce Bunshin, and as his Susano'o power starts to dwindle, she shatters through his defenses and KOs.



I don't believe that Byakugo can actually heal mental trauma, if this was the case I imagine that she would have used it to get over her extremely hindering phobia of blood. Tsunade's going to have to recover from the trauma of being tortured for a long damn time and she's also going to be fucked from experiencing such trauma in a second. I don't doubt that she can heal others suffering from the after effects but I don't think that she's just gonna get up and fight. If Tsunade does wake up, Itachi can use Tsukuyomi again.This version of Itachi is healthy and even Sick Itachi used a variety of Ninjutsu as well as Mangekyo techniques. Tsukuyomi is going to stop Tsunade in her tracks, stopping Byakugo as well.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Since Itachi still has access to Susano'o and Tsukuyomi, which give him good methods of putting her down, I think that Itachi has a very good chance. Itachi has a hell of a lot to work with while Tsunade has comparatively very little. He's not going to get caught off guard by Tsunade's strength when he sees her destroying a Bunshin as well as her surroundings with a single punch.


 Just because Itachi has more to work with than she does doesn't automatically mean he is better off since he really only has one way to actually put her down and she can outlast him. A single attack is also usually all that is needed to get rid of a Bunshin, and she can hit a target without destroying the area. So if she rushes straight at him and punches him, she'll just punch a Bunshin he quickly swapped places with which will disperse as per usual.



> This means he's very unlikely to try and tank a punch from her, since he frequently uses Bunshin and Genjutsu trickery in his fights. This also means that he's unlikely to be defeated by a Tsunade who is playing possum. Itachi still has Bunshin, Genjutsu and standard elemental Ninjutsu to throw Tsunade off. No doubt that Tsunade can tank Itachi's elemental Ninjutsu, but she doesn't want her vision to be blocked by a fireball, nor does she want her balance to be thrown off by a Suiryudan.


 If he hits Tsunade with an attack that would normally kill or badly cripple a regular person, she can very much play possum because he is unaware of her regenerative abilities. Tsunade has also demonstrated the ability to bat away fireballs and the speed to avoid Itachi's. I don't believe any of his Suiton has shown that it's capable of hitting her either. 



> Itachi is also very speedy and has displayed a certain amount of tactical prowess which means he can put those tools to very good use while Tsunade is not speedy and her reflexes are far below Itachi's. Characters like Hebi Sasuke and Kakashi have had trouble following Itachi's movements and Itachi outperformed Sasuke at some moments during their battle with Kabuto. This is the man that had enough time to create a Kage Bunshin during a heated shuriken exchange without a Sharingan user noticing. The disparity in speed also lessens the chances of Tsunade playing possum and punching Itachi's lights out.


 Tsunade is actually quite fast overall but yes Itachi is overall even faster than she is, but not by such a margin that he can continuously and easily evade all of her attacks. There's also the fact even if he does he will be sent flying by her punching or kicking the ground which leaves him open to be hit while's he stunned midair. Edo Itachi is much stronger and faster than Itachi normally is, but since Itachi is healthy here that can be attributed to him. 



> Worst comes to worst, Itachi pulls out Susano'o. Not saying that Itachi wins 100% of the time, I just think he has a better shot.
> 
> Tsunade's going to find it very hard to actually nab Itachi when she has to physically punch a frequent Bunshin using trickster who is not only faster than her, but also has better reflexes and more tools in his belt.


 He cannot spam Bunshins is the problem, he's going to have to deal with her quickly because playing hide-and-seek will only lead to him exhausting himself.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Itachі (Jul 31, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Just because Itachi has more to work with than she does doesn't automatically mean he is better off since he really only has one way to actually put her down and she can outlast him. A single attack is also usually all that is needed to get rid of a Bunshin, and she can hit a target without destroying the area. So if she rushes straight at him and punches him, she'll just punch a Bunshin he quickly swapped places with which will disperse as per usual.



He is better off since he is going to be in a better position throughout the match. Again, he can use elemental Ninjutsu to throw her off and create openings. It's not about killing her with a measly Hosenka, it's about distracting her and then going in for the kill.



> If he hits Tsunade with an attack that would normally kill or badly cripple a regular person, she can very much play possum because he is unaware of her regenerative abilities.Tsunade has also demonstrated the ability to bat away fireballs and the speed to avoid Itachi's. I don't believe any of his Suiton has shown that it's capable of hitting her either.



She can play possum but Itachi's still got the speed/reflexes advantage and a great defence in Susano'o. I very much implied that she _could_ avoid the Ninjutsu in my post, just that she would be disadvantaged since she has to avoid them in the first place. If she doesn't avoid them she's going to be victim to a follow up attack, if she does avoid them Itachi's still going to capitalise on the time she spent avoiding them and focusing on the Ninjutsu instead of Itachi himself. Itachi's Jutsu execution is extremely fast so while stuff like this may not seem important, it is.



> Tsunade is actually quite fast overall but yes Itachi is overall even faster than she is, but not by such a margin that he can continuously and easily evade all of her attacks. There's also the fact even if he does he will be sent flying by her punching or kicking the ground which leaves him open to be hit while's he stunned midair. Edo Itachi is much stronger and faster than Itachi normally is, but since Itachi is healthy here that can be attributed to him.



I agree with you on your first point. As for Tsunade punching the ground, Itachi can just outright avoid the fallout since Tsunade's moves are linear and she has next to nothing in order to distract Itachi. Itachi is also very likely to start off with Bunshin, so he can use his knowledge of her brute strength to avoid Tsunade's range fully, even if she isn't attacking him directly. Itachi also has a defence in Susano'o, if push comes to shove.



> He cannot spam Bunshins is the problem, he's going to have to deal with her quickly because playing hide-and-seek will only lead to him exhausting himself.



Agreed.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 31, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Why would Tsunade's hits destroy the ground? If she was aiming straight ahead that wouldn't happen and if she was aiming downwards towards Itachi would probably jump away, given that he has witnessed her strength. He would have engaged her first with a Bunshin, so I don't see this being a problem.



"if she was aiming downwards Itachi would jump away" .. where would he jump to exactly? How does he know the exact proximity of the damage her attack will inflict, before it's even appeared? He might jump upwards, sure, or maybe even onto a nearby obstacle, but either way she still has the advantage in successive attacks.



> These Ninjutsu are not effective by themselves, but in combination with Bunshin feints they certainly are effective. They can block LOS and force Tsunade to move as well as create openings.



Openings for what? All of his attacks are shrugged off or evaded. 



> Since when has Tsunade ever used that tactic? Why would she use such a tactic in an enclosed place where she's likely to get tagged by the acid of 'thousands of acid-splitting slugs'? Even if she does use such a tactic, Itachi can just use Susano'o for a short burst and.. move.



It isn't Itachi who's at risk of being hit (at least not initially), it's the slower, less-powerful KB he sends after her. Tsunade has never used this tactic in battle, but then she's only had two on-panel battles: in the first she has a blood phobia, and can't use Kuchiyose for CQC purposes, and in the second Katsuyu would have had zero use offensively.



> Unless you're including Tsukuyomi in the combat aspect, Itachi doesn't have to engage in CQC since he can just Shunshin close to her and use Tsukuyomi, like he did to Hebi Sasuke; an opponent with better reflexes than Tsunade. Again, I don't think Tsunade's likely to employ such a tactic.



*and considerably worse taijutsu than Tsunade. Also, I think you might be incorrect about that scene. If Itachi had used Tsukuyomi right after his Shunshin, he would be right in front of Sasuke after he broke out. Instead, Itachi and Sasuke are positioned like this: 

Link removed

Which is where they stood during their shuriken battle:

Link removed

I'm fairly certain that at some point between their shuriken battle and taijutsu brawl, Itachi caught him in Tsukuyomi, not after. 



> I don't believe that Byakugo can actually heal mental trauma, if this was the case I imagine that she would have used it to get over her extremely hindering phobia of blood. Tsunade's going to have to recover from the trauma of being tortured for a long damn time and she's also going to be fucked from experiencing such trauma in a second. I don't doubt that she can heal others suffering from the after effects but I don't think that she's just gonna get up and fight. If Tsunade does wake up, Itachi can use Tsukuyomi again.This version of Itachi is healthy and even Sick Itachi used a variety of Ninjutsu as well as Mangekyo techniques. Tsukuyomi is going to stop Tsunade in her tracks, stopping Byakugo as well.



You're comparing apples and oranges. Her blood phobia was just that, a phobia. How do you heal a phobia with chakra? It's just fear. The phobia did stem from mental trauma, but watching your lover die in front of you isn't the kind of thing that can be healed with jutsu. Conversely, the illusionary effects of Tsukuyomi can, because we saw her do it. We also saw Tsunade bluntly shake off her blood phobia mid-battle, because she had a strong resolve. The shock and pain of Tsukuyomi might initially knock her out, but she wakes up as soon as Byakugou starts pumping blood around her system again, and she probably shrugs that shit off like she did her fear of blood. Also, knocking Tsunade out doesn't necessarily remove Byakugou - that should only happen when she runs out of chakra. Since Byakugou doesn't require any effort to sustain, it should remain active even while she's not conscious.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

Itachі said:


> He is better off since he is going to be in a better position throughout the match. Again, he can use elemental Ninjutsu to throw her off and create openings. It's not about killing her with a measly Hosenka, it's about distracting her and then going in for the kill.


 I agree that'd generally he'd be in a better position than Tsunade, but the level of Katon and Suiton he has shown isn't something that Tsunade cannot easily punch her way through or leap away from. When he goes in for the kill, what does he kill her with? 





> She can play possum but Itachi's still got the speed/reflexes advantage and a great defence in Susano'o. I very much implied that she _could_ avoid the Ninjutsu in my post, just that she would be disadvantaged since she has to avoid them in the first place. If she doesn't avoid them she's going to be victim to a follow up attack, if she does avoid them Itachi's still going to capitalise on the time she spent avoiding them and focusing on the Ninjutsu instead of Itachi himself. Itachi's Jutsu execution is extremely fast so while stuff like this may not seem important, it is.


 If Itachi stabs her with a Susanoo sword and thinks she is dead, she can do exactly what she did against Madara and break the sword, grab it, and then hit his own Susanoo or simply choose to punch it herself instead which would bust it open is what I'm saying. As for the rest, yeah that's true but when Itachi does perform a follow-up what attack will he use to kill her? It's unlikely that he'd just chop off her head and be done with it, he'd probably stab her or use Tsukuyomi: which are two things that will not kill her. 





> I agree with you on your first point. As for Tsunade punching the ground, Itachi can just outright avoid the fallout since Tsunade's moves are linear and she has next to nothing in order to distract Itachi. Itachi is also very likely to start off with Bunshin, so he can use his knowledge of her brute strength to avoid Tsunade's range fully, even if she isn't attacking him directly. Itachi also has a defence in Susano'o, if push comes to shove.


 Sure he can evade her punch but he can't avoid the entire landscape around him being blown to smithereens and launched into the air by the impact as well as harmed by the sheer force. 

Remember when Sakura punched the ground in the War Arc? Hashirama said that her strength may be even greater than Tsunade's when he said that, but the only version of Tsunade that Hashirama knows about is a toddler Tsunade. The basis of Tsunade and Sakura's strength is precise chakra control, and Sakura has demonstrated that hers is even less than her master's when she struggled to heal a dying Shikamaru even while she was boosted by Kurama's strongest chakra cloak, whilst Tsunade who wasn't boosted by anything and had literally just recovered from being bisected and knocking at death's door tapped his forehead and fully healed him instantly. With that said, Tsunade can at the bare minimum replicate Sakura's feat and even more if she truly desired. If she does that, then Itachi will have absolutely no way to counter aside from Susanoo at the last second which she is strong enough to destroy with her bare hands considering what she did to Madara's.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Veracity (Jul 31, 2016)

@Grimmjowsensei

You should probably analyze some of those manga panels because you are in fact wrong. You forget that Madara's Sussano actually regenerates damage very quickly.

Here is the indent Tsuande made from her first punch:
Link removed

Then Mei hits the Sussano with a water dragon:
Link removed

By the time Tsuande is gearing up to kick the Sussano again, the damage has been repaired:
Link removed

That crack that Raikage put in the back wouldn't have structurally weakened the front anyway( like a normal ribcage) because we have other feats of Sussano being outright obliterated from one side, while the other is perfectly fine. The Raikage's strike was most likely there to keep Sussano in place for Tsuande to connect.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Sapherosth (Jul 31, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Okay, so like, you say that, and you believe that, but being insistent or crude doesn't make it true or convince me.  I could tell you, "It just doesn't, full stop" but to you that response would just feel like a waste of your time.  Thank you for making your feelings known?  Iunno, not trying to be mean, I'm just not sure what you expected.  If you have some interesting reasoning you'd like to give me to try and convince me or explain your interpretation, that would be cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





V4 actually has more armour and looks thicker....not tall and thin like Madara's V3. I thought this was common sense that armours > flesh and that the thicker it is, the harder it is to get through, generally. Coupled that with Yata Mirror, it shits on Madara's V3 without a doubt. So far, Itachi's best tanking feat is tanking Kirin with his Susano, now we don't know what version of Susano it is, but a lot of us have speculated it to be Skeleton version of Susano, and that feat alone shits on anything Tsunade is capable of, destructive wise.

You brought up some stuff about how Sasuke was better at ninjutsu and Itachi was good with genjutsu.....let me ask you this, does Sasuke's Amateratsu burn hotter than Itachi's? The only difference between them is control.

I don't think Tsunade has any kind of speed feat at all to be honest. It's more or less Madara deciding not to do anything in response just to test her powers as the granddaughter of Hashirama. The only one he noted with speed was with the Raikage.

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Mithos (Aug 1, 2016)

Tsunade fought 5 Susano'o clones without succumbing to ocular ninjutsu, and while we don't know that Madara specifically attempted to trap her in one, we do know that he was willing to do so _when given the chance_.

I would bet on Tsunade breaking Itachi's Susano'o or exhausting him before she gets caught by Tsukuyomi.

And as Godaime Tsunade has mentioned: Tsukuyomi is not even a surefire method of taking her down because we've seen her repair the mental trauma with lesser medical ninjutsu than Byakugou, and if Byakugou doesn't work, Katsuyu can heal the damage with shosen (canonically shown to be able to rapidly counter the effects) by drawing on Tsunade's Byakugou chakra reserves.

Itachi can give her one hell of a fight, but he ultimately won't be winning.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Tsunade fought 5 Susano'o clones without succumbing to ocular ninjutsu, and while we don't know that Madara specifically attempted to trap her in one, we do know that he was willing to do so _when given the chance_.
> 
> I would bet on Tsunade breaking Itachi's Susano'o or exhausting him before she gets caught by Tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...


If Madara wanted her in a genjutsu she would've been in one, simple as that. He was fucking around with them to see what they are made of. People are really blowing this out of proportion though.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 1, 2016)

> There is no visual damage,



Bro, his head was on backwards.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 1, 2016)

> I was referring to you granting Madara's Susano'O more strength



I said I'm not granting Itachi's susano more strength than Madara's.  Then I said if anything Madara's would be stronger because he's placed much higher than Itachi in the narrative and by portrayal, but at worst I'll say they're equal because they're made of Susanostuffs, and given equality I derive my position.



> Its not something you are interpreting, its something you are making up.
> Again, none of this is in the manga. I haven't seen any implications of any of this in the manga either.



Show me Sasuke's Tsukiyomi, Itachi's canon perfect Susano/legged Susano and enton arrow/sword/magatama.  Go look up Tengu and see that they're actually the basis for how Kishi drew them or something.  There's a lot of sub-text you're missing because it isn't blatantly spelled out in speech bubbles, as if manga wasn't a mostly visual medium, and there's a lot of aspects of the manga present that you claim I'm making up.  You should try looking up the story of the Tengu's magic fan that creates wind storms (the one like Madara's) and the story of the Tengu's magic gourd.  Maybe you'll say that even though they look like Tengu and are drawn as chakra versions of Tengu and possess Tengu items Tengu aren't actually in the manga and I'm spinning castles in the air.  Or perhaps you'll tell me again that we shouldn't assume Sasuke's generically named Mangekyo Genjutsu which was said to be a far cry from Itachi's Tsukiyomi, isn't worse than Tsukiyomi, and I'm making that up. 



> There is no need to assume that Madara's legged V3 would be any more durable than its non legged V3 because there is no added layers on it. And there is also no need to assume that Madara's V2 or V3 are any more durable than Itachi or Sasuke's V2 or V3's respectively.
> And logically Itachi's V4 should be alot stronger than Madara's V3.



There's no need to assume there's no need to assume there's no need to assume... then at the end you tell me logically following all these non-assumptions we should assume Itachi's is a lot stronger than Madara's because that just makes sense to you.  



> Having legs might be an upgrade to mobility, but other than that I don't see how it would become any more durable without the extra layer of muscle tissue or armor.



I dunno, maybe because the chakra is more stable.  You remember when Madara stabilized his perfect Susano and made it change shape but otherwise left it at the same height and thickness, don't you?  He did say it was explicitly better than the form before it.  btw it also changed into a long nosed greater Tengu shape from a bird beaked lower tengu shape but I'm certain that Kishi didn't think about any of that when he drew it and I'm just raving out my imagination.


----------



## Alex Payne (Aug 1, 2016)




----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 1, 2016)

I am not sure why people are arguing whether Armoured Susano > Flesh Susano or not. Come on...Common sense people!

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> You should probably analyze some of those manga panels because you are in fact wrong. You forget that Madara's Sussano actually regenerates damage very quickly.
> 
> ...



Lets just assume his Susano'O regenerated and its not an art error, still it took Mei's suiton + Tsunade and Raikage attacking it at the same time.
Thats not Tsunade's doing alone.

Also breaking a chunk out of it doesn't accomplish much as if you don't hurt the user in it.
Because well, it regenerates very quickly, remember ? 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Bro, his head was on backwards.


Susano'O is not a living thing. It makes no difference which direction his head is looking.
The aim is to break through the exterior and hurt the user.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I said I'm not granting Itachi's susano more strength than Madara's.  Then I said if anything Madara's would be stronger because he's placed much higher than Itachi in the narrative and by portrayal, but at worst I'll say they're equal because they're made of Susanostuffs, and given equality I derive my position.


I agree, their respective stages should all be equal.



> Show me Sasuke's Tsukiyomi, Itachi's canon perfect Susano/legged Susano and enton arrow/sword/magatama.  Go look up Tengu and see that they're actually the basis for how Kishi drew them or something.  There's a lot of sub-text you're missing because it isn't blatantly spelled out in speech bubbles, as if manga wasn't a mostly visual medium, and there's a lot of aspects of the manga present that you claim I'm making up.  You should try looking up the story of the Tengu's magic fan that creates wind storms (the one like Madara's) and the story of the Tengu's magic gourd.  Maybe you'll say that even though they look like Tengu and are drawn as chakra versions of Tengu and possess Tengu items Tengu aren't actually in the manga and I'm spinning castles in the air.  Or perhaps you'll tell me again that we shouldn't assume Sasuke's generically named Mangekyo Genjutsu which was said to be a far cry from Itachi's Tsukiyomi, isn't worse than Tsukiyomi, and I'm making that up.



Its all made up. There is no evidence in the manga that Kishimoto actually wanted that Tengu hierarchy to reflect on their Susano'O strength.
Sasuke's Amaterasu and Itachi's Amaterasu are the same, Sasuke has an additional technique that allows him to control Amaterasu. Itachi's Tsukiyomi isn't stronger than Sasuke's Tsukiyomi, because Sasuke doesn't have Tsukiyomi.
You could at best argue that Madara'S PS is stronger than every stage of Susano'O Itachi has because it is something on a much higher level.

Their respective stages being different though ? I'll need some hard evidence for that.

And oh, lets also ignore that Itachi's Susano'O is the only one grated with the imperial regalia. Madara's V3 has no legendary tools.
Where does that place his Susano'O in the hierarchy ?




> There's no need to assume there's no need to assume there's no need to assume... then at the end you tell me logically following all these non-assumptions we should assume Itachi's is a lot stronger than Madara's because that just makes sense to you.


Its called deductive reasoning, it has nothing to do with whether it make sense to me or not.
Susano'O gets stronger as more layers are added onto it. Its an established fact.




> I dunno, maybe because the chakra is more stable.  You remember when Madara stabilized his perfect Susano and made it change shape but otherwise left it at the same height and thickness, don't you?  He did say it was explicitly better than the form before it.  btw it also changed into a long nosed greater Tengu shape from a bird beaked lower tengu shape but I'm certain that Kishi didn't think about any of that when he drew it and I'm just raving out my imagination.



Apples and oranges.
Madara used PS, and then stabilzed it and it transformed.

The only difference between V3 and legged V3 is that one of them has legs. No difference in appereance, not hinting at a chakra stabilization process like the one PS had to go through.

Itachi's V4 > Madara's V3.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

@Grimmjowsensei 

So you're seriously just gonna sit here and act disingenuous¿ lol that's funny.

We know the Sussano didn't take Mei's attack because it was back at 100% when Tsuande went to kick it. I've then already explained why the Raikage's attack wouldn't help one bit, but not a surprise that you've outright ignored it. 

Good thing Tsunade kicked Sussano hard enough that it not only obliterated the structure, but sent Madara cannonballing into a crater. And regenerating Sussano takes chakra and I'm not even sure if Itachi has those feats.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

Tskuyomi
Low diff win

Tsunade has no means to avoid eye contact

And has no feats to suggest tskuyomi at the least won't put her on her knees

Itachi having susanoo just makes this far too easy as far as am concerned

This whole ground pound strategy is hilarious considering she had the chance to do it and never did

Only Sakura did that against fodder

If the excuse is Katsuyu had no offensive use against Madara why would they here? Katsuyu still can't breach susanoo and actually can be sealed if stabbed . If breaking apart could work am sure oro would have barfed himself out and yet he didn't 

So Katsuyu would be as useful against itachi as tsunade punches will 

I don't see how tsunade who basically has to run up and punch u is going to gain an advantage on itachi who can los block , clone feint etc 

He can just stall. Hitting a clone puts her in auto genjutsu as well which makes it that much easier for tskuyomi to land 

All she needs to see is nawaki dying over and over again to break her 

Never got the point of this thread 

When we got fan fic ground pound being used as an option 

1 question how hard would tsunade opt to hit the ground does she know how far itachi can cross with 1 jump? 

What happens when she thinks it's itachi but she actually just revealed her only tactic on a clone 

Clone feinting Kabuto and pulling one of while exchanging throws with sasuke basically guarantees he feints her while she is looking at him

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## hbcaptain (Aug 1, 2016)

Tsukuyomi and Susano'o are too much to handle while he can easily dodge normal speed strong punches sing his speed and Sharingan precog, regeneration won't save Tsunade, Itachi probably wins via mid difficulty, high diff at most .


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Tsukuyomi and Susano'o are too much to handle while he can easily dodge normal speed strong punches sing his speed and Sharingan precog, regeneration won't save Tsunade, Itachi probably wins via mid difficulty, high diff at most .



Why high when he can land genjutsu off the bat then follow up with tskuyomi 

She has zero means of avoiding genjutsu  when itachi has shown 3 different ways of catching w person in genjutsu

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## hbcaptain (Aug 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Why high when he can land genjutsu off the bat then follow up with tskuyomi
> 
> She has zero means of avoiding genjutsu  when itachi has shown 3 different ways of catching w person in genjutsu


High difficulty at most , but most likely he would win mid diff because of regeneration only.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> High difficulty at most , but most likely he would win mid diff because of regeneration only.



That doesn't answer my question at all 
Guess Imma just leave you to it


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

On another note I do recant one part of my statement tsunade has done a ground pound before against Genin Naruto 
So it seems like something she will resort to . Without needing to jump like Sakura strategy 

However while I can admit that why do some people ignore how easy genjutsu is to land . I mean honestly 

When on earth hasn't it landed . It's like the most successful thing on panel


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> So you're seriously just gonna sit here and act disingenuous¿ lol that's funny.
> 
> We know the Sussano didn't take Mei's attack because it was back at 100% when Tsuande went to kick it



It surely took Mei's attack and Tsunade kicked it right after. It probably didn't do any significant damage, but there is no reason to dismiss fully. Even if Tsunade's attack did most of the damage, you can't ignore the fact that Mei's sution may have softened it up.



> . I've then already explained why the Raikage's attack wouldn't help one bit, but not a surprise that you've outright ignored it.


I ignored it because you didn't say anything substantial about it.
The impact of A's strike acting as a counter force surely amplified the effect of Tsunade's strike. Thats something you can't ignore.
So in short, it took Mei's suiton, and Tsunade's kick combined with A's chop to be able to break the ribs of a lower stage.



> Good thing Tsunade kicked Sussano hard enough that it not only obliterated the structure, but sent Madara cannonballing into a crater. And regenerating Sussano takes chakra and I'm not even sure if Itachi has those feats.


It didn't obliterate Susano'O, it broke a chunk of it, her strike didn't even reach Madara.
Now that was a lower stage, and none of Tsunade's attacks were being blocked. Madara was fucking around.
It is a big difference between blocking an attack and not blocking it. Thats just common sense, and the difference in effects can be observed in various instances through out the manga. 

There is absolutely no chance for her to bust Itachi's Susano'O let alone put a dent on it as long as Itachi can block her hits. Even if he doesn't block them, she isn't putting a dent on V3 and above. 

Itachi can't regenerate Susano'O ?
Now aren't you the guy talking about disingenuity ?
[1]
[1]

If you are wondering what that is, it is basically Itachi in his deathbed, moments away from death, reforming his Susano'O from the skeletal phase into the latter phase before Sasuke's kunai could reach him.
Pretty sure Itachi has the capability of reforming his Susano'O as long as he has chakra to do it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It surely took Mei's attack and Tsunade kicked it right after. It probably didn't do any significant damage, but there is no reason to dismiss fully. Even if Tsunade's attack did most of the damage, you can't ignore the fact that Mei's sution may have softened it up.
> 
> 
> I ignored it because you didn't say anything substantial about it.
> ...



How much damage do you seriously think it took from Mei's water dragon, and furthermore, if the Sussano was visually fully healed when Tsunade went to kick it, when did the Sussano regenerate? If it can regenerate in the small time frame between Tsuande punching it and Mei's water dragon hitting it, then it also regenerated again before Tsuande went to kick it. 


No it didnt. It didn't amplify Tsuande's attack when it hit  the sussano in a completely different spot. Ribcage Sussano is like an eggshell. Injuring one side doesn't effect the durability of the other side. One should also consider the fact that the Raikage put the smallest of cracks in Sussano ( while the other side of Sussano hasn't even been effected by entire obliteration) so all the damage done was a product of Tsuande. 


Tsunade kicked Sussano hard enough for Madara to fly out of the construct. Clearly enough damage was given. And seriously what would blocking have done in the situation¿ If Tsunade kicked the Sussano hard enough to erase the front side and apply enough force to send the user out of the construct then blocking wouldn't change a damn thing. There is no such thing as blocking for ribcage Sussano regardless. That is as much of a block as Madara can muster. 

I seriously want you to site where I said Tsuande could damage Itachi's leveled up Sussano. After that I want you to site exactly where and when said that Itachi couldn't regenerate Sussano at. Regenerating Sussano is just utilizing left over chakra; that's clearly not beyond Itachi and I clearly have no dea why you even wanted to call me disingenuous for that misunderstanding lmao. The only thing in doubt here, is Itachi's ability to regenerate Sussano at the rate that Madara does and for how long he can keep it up with his limited chakra supply.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> How much damage do you seriously think it took from Mei's water dragon, and furthermore, if the Sussano was visually fully healed when Tsunade went to kick it, when did the Sussano regenerate? If it can regenerate in the small time frame between Tsuande punching it and Mei's water dragon hitting it, then it also regenerated again before Tsuande went to kick it.


Like I said, visually there is nothing, so it can't be significant but I'm not willing to dismiss it fully. It was a combined effort of the kage to breach Madara's Susano'O and you are removing 2 variables out of the equation for no reason.



> No it didnt. It didn't amplify Tsuande's attack when it hit  the sussano in a completely different spot. Ribcage Sussano is like an eggshell. Injuring one side doesn't effect the durability of the other side. One should also consider the fact that the Raikage put the smallest of cracks in Sussano ( while the other side of Sussano hasn't even been effected by entire obliteration) so all the damage done was a product of Tsuande.


It surely did. There is a difference if I hit you in the chest, and if I hit you in the chest while at the same time someone else pushes you from behind towards my punch. Obviously my punch will do more damage.



> Tsunade kicked Sussano hard enough for Madara to fly out of the construct. Clearly enough damage was given. And seriously what would blocking have done in the situation¿ If Tsunade kicked the Sussano hard enough to erase the front side and apply enough force to send the user out of the construct then blocking wouldn't change a damn thing. There is no such thing as blocking for ribcage Sussano regardless. That is as much of a block as Madara can muster.


What do you mean blocking wouldn't change a thing ?
Susano'O's arms would absorb some of the impact, so the rest of the impact that transfered to the vital areas would be significantly diminished.
Have you ever watched a boxing match ? Ever wondered why people block incoming hits ? Lol.

Link removed
I'm glad that Nagato doesn't think the same way you do, otherwise the fight would have likely ended there.



> I seriously want you to site where I said Tsuande could damage Itachi's leveled up Sussano. After that I want you to site exactly where and when said that Itachi couldn't regenerate Sussano at. Regenerating Sussano is just utilizing left over chakra; that's clearly not beyond Itachi and I clearly have no dea why you even wanted to call me disingenuous for that misunderstanding lmao. The only thing in doubt here, is Itachi's ability to regenerate Sussano at the rate that Madara does and for how long he can keep it up with his limited chakra supply.



Ok why did you assume that Itachi is restricted to ribcage here ? Why isn't Itachi using the stages of Susano'O he thinks is more appropriate for the situation ?

You said Itachi can't regenerate Susano'O here :


> And regenerating Sussano takes chakra and I'm not even sure if Itachi has those feats.



Well, he clearly has those feats as the time frame of Sasuke's Kunai moving towards him was pretty short.

As for how long he can keep it up; in his death bed he maintained it for a couple of minutes(most of it the higher stages). He was also almost out of chakra at that point. So yeah in a fresh fight, where he isn't out of chakra, where he isn't hurt,  its not something he needs to worry about so much.

I'd worry more about Tsunade here.

Link removed

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## Kisame (Aug 1, 2016)

Itachi wins with Tsukiyomi 100%:

1. It is a one-shot technique; if it connects the fight is over.
2. It has a high chance of success:

Either you lack knowledge about the technique and you're dead or
You do have knowledge in which case you will be forced to *considerably *lower your CQC efforts: You will have to either close your eyes while fighting or try not to meet Itachi's gaze which is (as the manga told us through Itachi's               confrontation with Asuma, Kurenai and Gai in part I) quite difficult and requires training and not anyone can do it. A third option would be to focus on long ranged attacks. The point is all of this against someone as intelligent, quick,       and incredibly good with feints and has other methods of genjutsu (finger) like Itachi; means you're *severelym*disadvantaged in a fight. And for someone like Tsunade who - for all intents and purposes - can only be a threat in close-ranged combat; this means *death*.
3. No warning signs, lag time, and the user is not open to attacks.


----------



## Mithos (Aug 1, 2016)

Shark said:


> Itachi wins with Tsukiyomi 100%:
> 
> 1. It is a one-shot technique; if it connects the fight is over.
> 2. It has a high chance of success:
> ...



What about Byakugou or Katsuyu's healing? Tsunade has canonically healed the effects of Tsukuyomi with shosen alone, and Byakugou is supposed to be the pinnacle of medical ninjutsu - there shouldn't be anything that shosen can heal but Byakugou cannot. And even if that were the case and Byakugou could not, if Katsuyu is already on the field why can't she use a clone to heal Tsunade's forehead by tapping into Tsunade's Byakugou chakra and utilizing her healing technique?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 1, 2016)

Mithos said:


> What about Byakugou or Katsuyu's healing? Tsunade has canonically healed the effects of Tsukuyomi with shosen alone, and Byakugou is supposed to be the pinnacle of medical ninjutsu - there shouldn't be anything that shosen can heal but Byakugou cannot. And even if that were the case and Byakugou could not, if Katsuyu is already on the field why can't she use a clone to heal Tsunade's forehead by tapping into Tsunade's Byakugou chakra and utilizing her healing technique?




What she healed was a weaker effect of Tsukuyom that Kakashi and Sasuke endured after several days. The tsukuyomi was even held back last time.

Tsunade will be getting the full shit, which she's going to just pass out immediately, or Itachi can use it to force her to turn off byakugo and then kill her. Either way, this technique could finish her.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Mithos (Aug 1, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> What she healed was a weaker effect of Tsukuyom that Kakashi and Sasuke endured after several days. The tsukuyomi was even held back last time.
> 
> Tsunade will be getting the full shit, which she's going to just pass out immediately, or Itachi can use it to force her to turn off byakugo and then kill her. Either way, this technique could finish her.



Since the effects were so easily and quickly healed, I think we can assume she could heal its full effects too - provided the target she was healing survived. 

Any physical trauma she receives from Tsukuyomi should be automatically countered by Byakugou, which is passive and does not require Tsunade's concentration to heal. I suppose using genjutsu to force her to turn off Byakugou could work, but that might not work if Katsuyu is on the field: Katsuyu and Tsunade seem to share a connection that allows them to share chakra, so Katsuyu may be able to remotely snap her out of it, or by physically injecting chakra into Tsunade with a clone. Katsuyu isn't going to stand there and let Itachi stare into Tsunade's eyes and force her to dispel her technique, and then stand there still while he moves to finish her off. 

This is on top of the fact that catching her won't even be easy in the first place. He'll need to immobilize her first, and that's easier said than done with her strength. Itachi (the fake one) grabbed Kakashi's KB in order to use Sharingan genjutsu, and Madara grabbed A while he was distracted, so he could hold him in place for the genjutsu as well. 

When you combine all the elements - the initial difficulty of catching her, Byakugou's healing, Katsuyu's shosen, and Katsuyu as a genjutsu defense - I find it less likely that he'll pull all of that off.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, visually there is nothing, so it can't be significant but I'm not willing to dismiss it fully. It was a combined effort of the kage to breach Madara's Susano'O and you are removing 2 variables out of the equation for no reason.
> 
> 
> It surely did. There is a difference if I hit you in the chest, and if I hit you in the chest while at the same time someone else pushes you from behind towards my punch. Obviously my punch will do more damage.
> ...


It was a combined effort from the Kage to create that opening for Tsuande, not for Tsunade to bust Sussano. If Mei's water dragon did any damage, there would have been a small crack on Sussano. Considering sussano  looked it was nigh polished, it's clear it didnt do any damage.  Even if it did alittle, the fact that Tsuande can strike sussano so hard that Madara flies out the other side just shows that you could have increased Susano'Os durability alittle and it still would have been obliterated . You also seemed to have ignored the fact that Sussano can heal damage between the panels Tsuande hit the Sussano until the time Mei hit the Sussano with her water Tech, so clearly it would have regenerated between the water dragon and Tsuande's kick.

No it does not increase the damage, because Ay didn't strike the Sussano hard enough to.  It might hurt you overall more but then again Sussano isn't actually Madara himself. Making a small crack in your back doesn't lessen the durability of the front.

The ribcage Sussano Madara used to combat the Kage in that scene didn't have arms. So how was he suppose to block? What you also don't understand is that when someone punches you so hard that your arms are erased, blocking doesn't matter at all. If Superman was going to punch me, whether I block or not is out of the question, because he punches so hard that pulling my arms over my chest is a non factor. Lol if Tsuande went to punch Nagato, he would be dead regardless of blocking or not.

Nobody is talking about Itachi. My intial post had NOTHING TO DO WITH ITACHI. You literally just brought him into the debate for 0 reason. My intial post was specifically  about Tsuande being able to breach Madara's ribcage Sussano with one kick. I don't think she can damage Itachi's leveled up Sussano much.

I never said that Itachi can't regenrate Sussano, rather he doesn't have the feats to suggest he can regenerate it at the rate Madara does.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 1, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Since the effects were so easily and quickly healed, I think we can assume she could heal its full effects too - provided the target she was healing survived.
> 
> Any physical trauma she receives from Tsukuyomi should be automatically countered by Byakugou, which is passive and does not require Tsunade's concentration to heal. I suppose using genjutsu to force her to turn off Byakugou could work, but that might not work if Katsuyu is on the field: Katsuyu and Tsunade seem to share a connection that allows them to share chakra, so Katsuyu may be able to remotely snap her out of it, or by physically injecting chakra into Tsunade with a clone. Katsuyu isn't going to stand there and let Itachi stare into Tsunade's eyes and force her to dispel her technique, and then stand there still while he moves to finish her off.
> 
> ...




Byakugo works by regenerating the cells by creating new ones after it's destroyed....I don't remember Tsukuyomi destroying cells, so I don't see how Byakugo can heal Tsukuyomi's effects. Different techniques require different kinds of "healing". It's more of a stretch to say that Byakugo can heal anything, especially things that are non-physical, and physical healing is the only thing we've seen Byakugo do so far.

The whole thing about Katsuyu and Tsunade sharing chakra might work, but it's still a stretch because we don't know how strong the connection is, and we've never seen anything to suggest that transferring chakra from one place to another from a distance is enough to disrupt Itachi's control. I remember Katsuyu saying that she alone is insufficient and that she relies mainly on Tsunade.

I don't know why catching Tsunade won't be easy considering she's never fought anyone who's genjutsu orientated before and she's mainly a CQC fighter. Tsunade needs to be looking at Itachi's FEET constantly throughout the fight, which gives way to CQC Susano grab crush and all other attacks, while she is unable to harm Itachi under the protection of Susano.

Additionally, we've seen many instances where Itachi has subtly use genjutsu to catch people off guard. He doesn't necessarily have to actively grab the target and force them when we've seen him summon flock of crows to distract the target and use crow bunshins to create that opening.


----------



## Mithos (Aug 2, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Byakugo works by regenerating the cells by creating new ones after it's destroyed....I don't remember Tsukuyomi destroying cells, so I don't see how Byakugo can heal Tsukuyomi's effects. Different techniques require different kinds of "healing". It's more of a stretch to say that Byakugo can heal anything, especially things that are non-physical, and physical healing is the only thing we've seen Byakugo do so far.



Well, regular shosen is supposed to heal physical wounds, too, but it still healed Tsukuyomi's effects anyway. I have a hard time believing that Byakugou, the ultimate medical ninjutsu technique, would fail to heal something a few seconds of a simple shosen could achieve.

Tsukuyomi must cause some sort of physical trauma or else Kakashi and Sasuke wouldn't have ended up in comas.

But again, even if that is the case, Katsuyu can use shosen on Tsunade.



> The whole thing about Katsuyu and Tsunade sharing chakra might work, but it's still a stretch because we don't know how strong the connection is, and we've never seen anything to suggest that transferring chakra from one place to another from a distance is enough to disrupt Itachi's control. I remember Katsuyu saying that she alone is insufficient and that she relies mainly on Tsunade.



Well, the connection is strong enough that the effectiveness of Katsuyu's healing depends entirely upon the chakra reserves of Tsunade's Byakugou, so I would say the connection is very deep - integral, even. Katsuyu can even draw upon it while Tsunade is half-conscious.

She relies on Tsunade's _chakra_; in this scenario, Tsunade would have plenty of chakra in her seal, so Katsuyu's healing should be effective.

Well, the _genjutsu: kai_ is really just injecting a bit of chakra into one's own network or into someone else's, so if Katsuyu can remotely do that, I don't see why it wouldn't snap Tsunade out of the illusion, even if it is Itachi who is performing the genjutsu. And Katsuyu can certainly do it if she is physically touching Tsunade - made easier if Tsunade keeps a mini Katsuyu clone on her shoulder like she did when intercepting Naruto and Bee.



> I don't know why catching Tsunade won't be easy considering she's never fought anyone who's genjutsu orientated before and she's mainly a CQC fighter. Tsunade needs to be looking at Itachi's FEET constantly throughout the fight, which gives way to CQC Susano grab crush and all other attacks, while she is unable to harm Itachi under the protection of Susano.



Tsunade fought in multiple wars, and was credited as one of the main reasons for which Konoha won one of them. It doesn't make sense to say that she's never fought anyone genjutsu oriented before.

Then there's the fact that she fought against Madara, who can and has shown that he uses ocular genjutsu. She was not put under genjutsu by the Susano'o clones, or by Madara himself.

She doesn't really have to look at his feet; she can look at his stomach and chest, too. Her fighting style makes that possible: she doesn't have to land a clean hit to kill Itachi; Susano'o is a large enough target that she could hit it without looking Itachi in the face; and if she aims low, there will be collateral damage sending Itachi away.

Susano'o grabbing her likely won't work. She has the strength to break out of its grip, and the strength to simply punch away the hand as it tries to grab her. She can crack Susano'o with a single punch, so if Itachi is trying to fight her up close with Susano'o, she will have plenty of chances to smash through his defenses. On top of that, Itachi's time in Susano'o is extremely limited due to chakra restraints - in other words, he can't stay in there forever.



> Additionally, we've seen many instances where Itachi has subtly use genjutsu to catch people off guard. He doesn't necessarily have to actively grab the target and force them when we've seen him summon flock of crows to distract the target and use crow bunshins to create that opening.



Sure. But Tsunade knows about his genjutsu prowess, and as I mentioned above, she doesn't have to look him in the face to be effective thanks to her strength. If she sees the crows, she can look down and smash the ground.

And all of Itachi's genjutsu can be potentially nullified if Tsunade has a mini Katsuyu on her shoulder - the partner method was stated to be a counter to Sharingan genjutsu. And unfortunately for Itachi, any damage he might inflict while she is temporarily stunned can be regenerated thanks to Byakugou, so just trapping and hitting her is not a surefire win for him like it might be against another opponent.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 2, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Well, regular shosen is supposed to heal physical wounds, too, but it still healed Tsukuyomi's effects anyway. I have a hard time believing that Byakugou, the ultimate medical ninjutsu technique, would fail to heal something a few seconds of a simple shosen could achieve.
> 
> Tsukuyomi must cause some sort of physical trauma or else Kakashi and Sasuke wouldn't have ended up in comas.
> 
> ...




*Shosen is healing, while Byakugo is regeneration.* The fundamentals are different already. You cannot regenerate something that isn't destroyed, while you can heal something that is "damaged". Plus, if an ordinary shosen could have healed Tsukuyomi, then any medic nin inside of Konoha could have healed Kakashi and Sasuke, but they specifically needed Tsunade to do it.

Tsukuyomi just completely breaks apart your mind. In the novel we've even seen it completely kill someone, trapping them for 80 years.

The point about Katsuyu breaking Tsunade out of normal genjutsu is a good point, I can see it happening. 



> Tsunade fought in multiple wars, and was credited as one of the main reasons for which Konoha won one of them. It doesn't make sense to say that she's never fought anyone genjutsu oriented before.



No one outside of Konoha (that we know of) is on Itachi's caliber of genjutsu. Plus genjutsu users are quite rare in itself, with the only famous ones being Uchiha. 



> Then there's the fact that she fought against Madara, who can and has shown that he uses ocular genjutsu. She was not put under genjutsu by the Susano'o clones, or by Madara himself.



Madara used genjutsu twice.....1 on fodder, and 1 on Raikage. He's not the genjutsu type to begin with, unlike Itachi who uses it in every single one of his fights.



> She doesn't really have to look at his feet; she can look at his stomach and chest, too. Her fighting style makes that possible: she doesn't have to land a clean hit to kill Itachi; Susano'o is a large enough target that she could hit it without looking Itachi in the face; and if she aims low, there will be collateral damage sending Itachi away.



It was explicitly stated to be very difficult by Sakura, her top student, who's probably not even that far behind her at that point. Gai stated that he had to learn how to fight while looking at the feet. Looking at Itachi's stomach and chest will just end up being caught in finger genjutsu, even if Katsuku can break her out, it takes time to recognise that Tsunade is in a genjutsu and Itachi will have an opening  to crush her with Susano.

Susano may be large, but that doesn't mean Tsunade can just run up and hit it while looking at the feet. How will she defend against attacks that are above the feet, where she won't see coming? You must remember Itachi has sharingan precog. 

Tsunade only achieved what she did against Madara because he was playing with her and she was backed up by 4 other kage.



> Susano'o grabbing her likely won't work. She has the strength to break out of its grip, and the strength to simply punch away the hand as it tries to grab her. She can crack Susano'o with a single punch, so if Itachi is trying to fight her up close with Susano'o, she will have plenty of chances to smash through his defenses. On top of that, Itachi's time in Susano'o is extremely limited due to chakra restraints - in other words, he can't stay in there forever.




Tsunade's strength may be great, but it's severely limited when she has no momentum or movement enabling her to produce that power. Susano grip can crush a person completely to a smithereens. Additionally, I would presume that V4 Susano grip will be vastly more powerful than lower versions that Madara used. I mean, we've seen Itachi use Susano chop to cut off Nagato's robotic arms like butter, I don't see any reason why he cannot do the same to cut Tsunade's head.




> Sure. But Tsunade knows about his genjutsu prowess, and as I mentioned above, she doesn't have to look him in the face to be effective thanks to her strength. If she sees the crows, she can look down and smash the ground.



Knowing about it does not equal fighting effectively. Her strength is in CQC and can be seen with sharingan precog. Additionally, I am not sure what smashing the ground will do against flying crows?


----------



## Mithos (Aug 2, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> *Shosen is healing, while Byakugo is regeneration.* The fundamentals are different already. You cannot regenerate something that isn't destroyed, while you can heal something that is "damaged". Plus, if an ordinary shosen could have healed Tsukuyomi, then any medic nin inside of Konoha could have healed Kakashi and Sasuke, but they specifically needed Tsunade to do it.



I'm aware of the differences. But shosen heals _physical_ wounds, while Byakugou regenerates. That is why standard medical ninjutsu such as shosen cannot heal a vital organ that is blown to bits, but such damage is no problem for Byakugou.



> Tsukuyomi just completely breaks apart your mind. In the novel we've even seen it completely kill someone, trapping them for 80 years.



I understand. But I think that it leaves concrete physical trauma in its wake - otherwise it doesn't make sense why shosen could heal it. Mental trauma is very vague, and clearly Tsunade couldn't heal mental trauma related to her phobia with shosen. Just like I don't think shosen could cure depression or things like that. Tsukuyomi must leave behind physical damage - and if I'm right, Byakugou should repair it.



> The point about Katsuyu breaking Tsunade out of normal genjutsu is a good point, I can see it happening.



Okay.



> No one outside of Konoha (that we know of) is on Itachi's caliber of genjutsu. Plus genjutsu users are quite rare in itself, with the only famous ones being Uchiha.



We don't really know how rare genjutsu users are in the Narutoverse because the story became so focused on the Sharingan and MS that non-Sharingan genjutsu would be pointless in nearly all plot-relevant battles.

We know it's used often enough that its fundamentals are taught at the ninja academy; it was used by Izumo & Kotetsu before the first test of the Chuunin exam; Team Oboro used it in the FoD; Kabuto used it; Kurenai was known for it; it's common enough that Jiraiya instilled in Naruto the need to know how to dispel illusions even if one is incapable of casting them; and I think the blinding technique used by Shee was a genjutsu, but I'm unsure.

I agree that Itachi's skill in genjutsu is without equal, but the standard methods of countering genjutsu still apply to him.



> Madara used genjutsu twice.....1 on fodder, and 1 on Raikage. He's not the genjutsu type to begin with, unlike Itachi who uses it in every single one of his fights.



It doesn't matter if he doesn't specialize in genjutsu like Itachi. The point is that he still uses ocular genjutsu, and whether or not it is stronger than Itachi's it is activated the same way: through direct eye contact. Tsunade fought an ocular genjutsu user without getting caught, and that counts for something.



> It was explicitly stated to be very difficult by Sakura, her top student, who's probably not even that far behind her at that point. Gai stated that he had to learn how to fight while looking at the feet. Looking at Itachi's stomach and chest will just end up being caught in finger genjutsu, even if Katsuku can break her out, it takes time to recognise that Tsunade is in a genjutsu and Itachi will have an opening  to crush her with Susano.



Wasn't that said by Sakura right at the beginning of Part II? That Sakura was nowhere near Tsunade's level.

Finger genjutsu is overrated. It was instantly recognized as genjutsu by Naruto, and he almost broke out. Tsunade has much better chakra control, so it shouldn't take it more than an instant to snap out of it.



> Susano may be large, but that doesn't mean Tsunade can just run up and hit it while looking at the feet. How will she defend against attacks that are above the feet, where she won't see coming? You must remember Itachi has sharingan precog.



If Itachi focuses on evading Tsunade, sure he won't get hit. But he can't keep Susano'o active and play cat and mouse because Susano'o is too taxing on his stamina. If Tsunade is forcing him to retreat and dodge while in Susano'o, she's well on her way to winning. And if you mean that he can use his Sharingan precognition to evade her while staying within CQC range with Susano'o active, I don't agree. Susano'o is big and bulky - even the ribcage version is a decent sized target - so I don't think Tsunade will have trouble hitting it. The Mokuton Susano'o clones had Sharingan too, but Tsunade didn't have trouble knocking them around.



> Tsunade only achieved what she did against Madara because he was playing with her and she was backed up by 4 other kage.



Okay, but even a Madara that's not serious is far above Itachi's level.

And he was trying hard enough that he would have killed Mei if not for Gaara, Gaara mentioned he was too strong, and he would have killed A if not for Onoki's intervention. Comparatively, Tsunade fared better than most of her Gokage peers. Arguably better than all save Onoki.




> Tsunade's strength may be great, but it's severely limited when she has no momentum or movement enabling her to produce that power. Susano grip can crush a person completely to a smithereens. Additionally, I would presume that V4 Susano grip will be vastly more powerful than lower versions that Madara used. I mean, we've seen Itachi use Susano chop to cut off Nagato's robotic arms like butter, I don't see any reason why he cannot do the same to cut Tsunade's head.



The robotic arms are part of Asura path, right? Well, that Path was completely smashed by Naruto's rasengan, so I wouldn't put stock into its durability.

No one ever gets decapitated in the manga because it's too hard to pull off in most cases, and I certainly don't see it happening to Tsunade who specializes in CQC and evasion. Even less likely when its a large chakra arm. Any karate chop can get dodged or outright deflected; she has the reaction and striking speed to simultaneously deflect multiple fireballs, so she should have no problem batting away the arm.



> Knowing about it does not equal fighting effectively. Her strength is in CQC and can be seen with sharingan precog. Additionally, I am not sure what smashing the ground will do against flying crows?



If she smashes the ground, the shockwave and fissure will prevent Itachi from closing in on her. And if he can't get close to her and she's not looking at his eyes, he can't catch her in Sharingan genjutsu.

This has been a good debate, but I think I'm done now. I don't think I have any more to add than what I've already said, and I understand the points you are making. I just find it _less_ likely than how I envision the battle may play out.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 2, 2016)

Mithos said:


> I'm aware of the differences. But shosen heals _physical_ wounds, while Byakugou regenerates. That is why standard medical ninjutsu such as shosen cannot heal a vital organ that is blown to bits, but such damage is no problem for Byakugou.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tsunade got decapitated.

Quite frankly, I find it impossible for Tsunade to fight on Itachi's CQC caliber all while looking at Itachi's feet and defending against attacks she *won't see coming *since she'll be focusing blow the waste. It's no different than boxing with another faster boxer in the same league but you're stuck looking at his feet while he lands quick strikes outside of LoS. It's impossible. Imagine Mike Tyson vs Floy, but Mike is limited to looking at Floyd's feet only. Mike is getting wrecked low-diff.

There's a few more points that I wanted to bring up, but I guess you're not interested anymore. Oh well. GG


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 2, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Tsunade got decapitated.


When does Tsunade get _decapitated_??


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 2, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> When does Tsunade get _decapitated_??










Can I ask.....What can Tsunade do against Yata Mirror's reflective properties? 


We saw Sasuke with a katana charging at it and it got reflected so far back, indicating that all the force reflected back at himself. So if Tsunade charged full swing at Susano/Yata Mirror (since she's got zero chance of getting behind Itachi and has no idea of Yata Mirror), she's going to be blowing her body apart from the force of her own punch.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> It was a combined effort from the Kage to create that opening for Tsuande



What opening ? Tsunade just ran up and punched Susano'O, Madara wasn't doing anything initially.

You can only argue that Mei's first suiton attempt was to block the Katon so that Tsunade could keep going, but then she followed up with a water dragon and hit Susano'O, while A and Onoki approached from behind with the weight alteration. Tell me, what opening were they supposed to create ? IF anything, Mei and Tsunade created the opening for them.

Its pretty obvious that they were all attacking it simultaneously to bring it down, not to create an opening.



> , not for Tsunade to bust Sussano. If Mei's water dragon did any damage, there would have been a small crack on Sussano. Considering sussano  looked it was nigh polished, it's clear it didnt do any damage.  Even if it did alittle, the fact that Tsuande can strike sussano so hard that Madara flies out the other side just shows that you could have increased Susano'Os durability alittle and it still would have been obliterated . You also seemed to have ignored the fact that Sussano can heal damage between the panels Tsuande hit the Sussano until the time Mei hit the Sussano with her water Tech, so clearly it would have regenerated between the water dragon and Tsuande's kick.



Couple of fallacies. Mei's dragon could have damaged Susano'O without cracking it. It would be less than the amount required to create a crack. I don't recall Madara flying from the other side, the behind was intact, I thought Madara was launched to the ground along with his Susano'O.

The duration between Tsunade's first punch and Mei's water dragon is longer than the duration between water dragon and the combined hit of Tsunade and A, so it is pretty speculative. It could have, or not.




> No it does not increase the damage, because Ay didn't strike the Sussano hard enough to.  It might hurt you overall more but then again Sussano isn't actually Madara himself. Making a small crack in your back doesn't lessen the durability of the front.



What are you not getting here ? I never claimed that hitting Susano'O from the behind would lessen the durability from the front, I am just saying that A's push from the back into Tsunade's punch would amplify the strength of her punch. Thats not rocket science. I explained in the post above.
If someone pushes you from behind while someone else punches you from the front, the push will amplify the strength of the punch and the damage you recieve overall.



> The ribcage Sussano Madara used to combat the Kage in that scene didn't have arms. So how was he suppose to block?



What the hell are you talking about ?
The user can manifest arms at will.
it faded out on him

Madara was fucking around.



> What you also don't understand is that when someone punches you so hard that your arms are erased, blocking doesn't matter at all. If Superman was going to punch me, whether I block or not is out of the question, because he punches so hard that pulling my arms over my chest is a non factor. Lol if Tsuande went to punch Nagato, he would be dead regardless of blocking or not.



The strength difference between Susano'O and Tsunade isn't the same as the difference between you and superman.

We've seen characters block attacks from massively stronger individuals.  it faded out on him
I'm pretty sure the end result would be different if that kick actually connected with Deva's face.

And even if Susano'O's arms get erased, which is not going to happen btw, it still would slow down the punch in the process and the damage the ribcage sustains would be greatly reduced.

I can't believe I have to explain such basic concepts to someone.



> Nobody is talking about Itachi. My intial post had NOTHING TO DO WITH ITACHI. You literally just brought him into the debate for 0 reason.



I didn't bring Itachi in. This thread is about Itachi. Read the fucking OP.



> My intial post was specifically  about Tsuande being able to breach Madara's ribcage Sussano with one kick.


Which I proved to be wrong, even if you ignore Mei's Suiton, it was a combined hit from weight altered A and Tsunade.


> I don't think she can damage Itachi's leveled up Sussano much.


Then there is not much left to debate here.



> I never said that Itachi can't regenrate Sussano, rather he doesn't have the feats to suggest he can regenerate it at the rate Madara does.



As far as we know, there is nothing special about Madara's Susano'O and his regeneration rate, so this is a completely baseless claim.
I also proved that Itachi can advance from one stage to the other within a second when he is in terrible shape, so even if you are looking for feats, they are there.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 2, 2016)

*Decapitation *is the complete separation of the head from the body.

Tsunade was cut in half it isn't the same thing.


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 2, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> *Decapitation *is the complete separation of the head from the body.
> 
> Tsunade was cut in half it isn't the same thing.




Is her neck/head stronger than her body? If not, then it can be done. Anyways, what's Tsunade's counter against Yata Mirror?


----------



## Mercurial (Aug 2, 2016)

Even with all the restrictions Itachi still wins without much trouble. He is much faster and more skilled in taijutsu than Tsunade, plus he has Sharingan precognition. He can also easily trick her with a quick usage of Karasu Bunshin and/or Kage Bunshin. Dodging Tsunade, blitzing her and piercing her head with kunai wouldn't be difficult for Itachi; capturing Tsunade in a Sharingan genjutsu and making her Itachi's bitch, or one-shotting with Tsukuyomi, is also very feasible.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 2, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Is her neck/head stronger than her body? If not, then it can be done. Anyways, what's Tsunade's counter against Yata Mirror?


He never said she can't be decapitated so I don't know what you're implying.

I don't really want to participate in this thread but since I quoted you already..
To put it simply, Katsuyu clones covering the entire are in acid, if Tsunade can't find an opening while Itachi is dodging barrages of acid while maintaining Susanoo she goes for terrain manipulation. If terrain manipulation can't create an opening for her to get behind Susanoo because she's lacking some speed feats or whatever the fuck is convenient then she hits the Yata gets injured, heals and waits for Itachi to exhaust himself which will happen because he's gonna have to deal with Katsuyu sooner than later and he'll be exhausted after that.

Like I said though I'm not really planning on participating in this thread I'm only here to watch and occasionally comment on the small things.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 2, 2016)

It should be noted that Tsunade could not break Madara's Ribcage Susano'o on the first try whereas the Raikage was able to do it to Sasuke's Ribcage. 

Why is that?

Yet Madara states that she's stronger than Raikage? Did losing that one arm, really downgrade his strength?





Raikiri19 said:


> more skilled in taijutsu than Tsunade,


He's not more skilled in taijutsu than Tsunade other than that, I agree that he should have the advantage with sharingan precog and speed.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 2, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> He never said she can't be decapitated so I don't know what you're implying.
> 
> I don't really want to participate in this thread but since I quoted you already..
> To put it simply, Katsuyu clones covering the entire are in acid, if Tsunade can't find an opening while Itachi is dodging barrages of acid while maintaining Susanoo she goes for terrain manipulation. If terrain manipulation can't create an opening for her to get behind Susanoo because she's lacking some speed feats or whatever the fuck is convenient then she hits the Yata gets injured, heals and waits for Itachi to exhaust himself which will happen because he's gonna have to deal with Katsuyu sooner than later and he'll be exhausted after that.
> ...



Katsuyu clone covering the battle field is literally useless. There's nothing it can do to Susano. It was also dodged by a huge summon. I doubt a ninja on the faster side of the scale would have trouble.

terrain manipulation isn't going to do anything at all apart from make a few dust. We've seen Itachi dealt with worse terrain manipulations e.g. CT/Muki tensei.

She hits Yata Mirror with her own strength/force she's blowing half of her body without a doubt, since her power is reflected back at herself. She can probably heal eventually, but it's absolutely bollocks to say she or kasuyu can defend against Itachi's onslaught with half a body.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 2, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Katsuyu clones covering the battle field is literally useless. There's nothing it can do to Susano. It was also dodged by a huge summon. I doubt a ninja on the faster side of the scale would have trouble. terrain manipulation isn't going to do anything at all apart from make a few dust. We've seen Itachi dealt with worse terrain manipulations e.g. CT/Muki tensei. She hits Yata Mirror with her own strength/force she's blowing half of her body without a doubt, since her power is reflected back at herself. She can probably heal eventually, but it's absolutely bollocks to say she or kasuyu can defend against Itachi's onslaught with half a body.


Im not here to debate with you. I was just curious what made you think she was decapitated. While I'm here though: Katsuyu squirting acid from multiple areas is "literally useless"? Zesshi Nensan should be able to melt through Itachis Susanoo the same way Yata can block "anything". Even if Zesshi Nensan is blocked with Yata or completely tanked by Susanoo then it can at its least be used to force Itachi into using Susanoo rather quickly if not removing him from the battle entirely. If you have a few Katsuyu clones using Zesshi Nensan every now and again then Itachi will be forced to deal with Katsuyu or cast his attention away from them and go after Tsunade which accomplishes nothing since both his opponents can find openings like that. If he uses bunshin, none have enough power to put either down Katsuyu/Tsunade tear his Bunshins apart. Manda chose to dodge that acid rather than shed his skin which just shows how dangerous it could be considering after tanking C0 his body was still in tact.. Someone standing on the ground is less likely to dodge an AOE that large while Manda who is even larger than Katsuyu had a better chance due to his size. That attack was small compared to him but compared to Itachi full sized Katsuyu Zesshi Nensan.. please. I love how people compare Mandas speed to someone's regular foot speed. If Itachi and Manda raced across the Land of Fire who do you think would win??? Itachi being able to react to Shuriken and carry out blindside attacks or what-not isn't the same as Manda attacking or defending (when it comes to speed.)

I'll let you have it with terrain manipulation, I'm too tired and the argument for it is too lazy, it's the same as saying Jiraiya won't achieve SM against his opponents.

Yata will hit her just as hard as her own hit? Is this because Mandara no Jin is a wall of defense that can block any kind of attack or because Odama Rasengan can carve entire mountains away? Perhaps it's because Tsunade can't die in battle? If it's anything it's because Amaterasu burns hotter than the sun right? I forgot.. Even if Yata can take the blow and deliver it back with a punch that's just as strong as Tsunades it'll do nothing more than smash a few internal organs that normal people like Itachi need in order to live for a few more moments. 
No big deal.

Any Genjutsu is broken with a simple Genjustu release, let's not forget that Orochimaru could literally move his body while inside _Itachis_ *P**aralysis Genjutsu* and Orochimarus Genjutsu resistance is like what? Negative 5.0? With her brilliant chakra control and knowledge on her opponent she'll know if she's in a Genjutsu. If you wanna be anal about it though Katsuyu clone on the shoulder works just fine. If the chakra connection isn't strong enough to release her, she opts out for the pain method and uses a small amount of acid to inflict pain on Tsunade which wakes her up from Itachis Genjutsu.

To sum up: Katsuyu clones using Zesshi Nensan from multiple directions whether you like it or not keeps Itachi on the defensive and creates openings for Tsunade. Let's not forget one punch = game over. Fuck it I'd put my money on part 1 Naruto landing a _single punch_ on Itachi before dying to Ama. (Maximum Difficulty)

Genjutsu is broken by Tsunade herself or partner method.

Tsunade takes this fight High Difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 2, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Im not here to debate with you. I was just curious what made you think she was decapitated. While I'm here though: Katsuyu squirting acid from multiple areas is "literally useless"? Zesshi Nensan should be able to melt through Itachis Susanoo the same way Yata can block "anything". Even if Zesshi Nensan is blocked with Yata or completely tanked by Susanoo then it can at its least be used to force Itachi into using Susanoo rather quickly if not removing him from the battle entirely. If you have a few Katsuyu clones using Zesshi Nensan every now and again then Itachi will be forced to deal with Katsuyu or cast his attention away from them and go after Tsunade which accomplishes nothing since both his opponents can find openings like that. If he uses bunshin, none have enough power to put either down Katsuyu/Tsunade tear his Bunshins apart. Manda chose to dodge that acid rather than shed his skin which just shows how dangerous it could be considering after tanking C0 his body was still in tact.. Someone standing on the ground is less likely to dodge an AOE that large while Manda who is even larger than Katsuyu had a better chance due to his size. That attack was small compared to him but compared to Itachi full sized Katsuyu Zesshi Nensan.. please. I love how people compare Mandas speed to someone's regular foot speed. If Itachi and Manda raced across the Land of Fire who do you think would win??? Itachi being able to react to Shuriken and carry out blindside attacks or what-not isn't the same as Manda attacking or defending (when it comes to speed.)
> 
> I'll let you have it with terrain manipulation, I'm too tired and the argument for it is too lazy, it's the same as saying Jiraiya won't achieve SM against his opponents.
> 
> ...





We've seen lower forms of Susano tank acid attacks.


The last sentence pretty much sealed the deal with you. 

*-snip-*

Reactions: Dislike 2


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 2, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> We've seen lower forms of Susano tank acid attacks. The last sentence pretty much sealed the deal with you.
> Never seen anything more retarded in my life.


Ive typed this too many times: "I didn't think I'd have to elaborate on this but I was joking" I figured someone would get triggered from that, not you though. Go ahead and ignore my post it doesn't make a difference to me. 

So barrages of Zesshi Nessan just get constantly tanked because Edo Madara Susanoo was able to withstand an acid attack? Okay,  I'm fine with that it doesn't change the fact Susanoo is required to block it and it doesn't change the fact that Tsunade can win this with High difficulty. All it proves is you chose to focus on a joke rather than address my post.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 3, 2016)

Oh this great debate is still going on 

What's her counter to genjutsu again ?

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Oh this great debate is still going on What's her counter to genjutsu again ?


why don't you read what people have to say instead of relying on what's probably faulty logic?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 3, 2016)

I take it no answer to it then

If one is to go off track record genjutsu has always landed . Against people with much better supplementary tactics and battle smarts than tsunade . But sure I gues ground pound is a counter to genjutsu


 itachi would always get from point A to B quicker than manda in any race that's what makes him faster 

Tsunade is faster than manda 

It's comical to believe manda is faster than itachi who clearly showed he is on an equal speed level to killer bee who crosses mountains quicker than Sasuke with his Sharingan can see 

A bullet is a lot smaller than me but is still a lot faster than me 

As is a cat or a small dog or a rabbit

Reactions: Funny 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 4, 2016)

Tsunade wank has been the strongest I've seen it since Izaya (rip) left us.

Tsunade's moves that can win this fight: chakra punch, chakra kick, Katsuyu's acid, outlasting

Itachi's counters to that: Susanoo

Itachi's moves that can win this fight: Tsukoyumi (I don't see Tsunade as a CQC fighter being able to fight without maintaining eye-contact without any training prior to this), Susanoo smashing her body like Sasuke did to Danzo, Susanoo doing whatever that will render her body useless

Tsunade's counters to that: Regenerating her cells


The only possible way for Tsunade to win this is to outlast him, but Itachi isn't going to stay in Susanoo for the whole fight, when he realizes he is losing too much energy, he will just start fighting more chakra-friendly because he's in no real danger since Tsunade can't really do anything to him because she will get clone-feinted / outmaneuvered or anything all the time.


Itachi mid/high diffs.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Dislike 2


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Aug 4, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Tsunade wank has been the strongest I've seen it since Izaya (rip) left us.
> 
> Tsunade's moves that can win this fight: chakra punch, chakra kick, Katsuyu's acid, outlasting
> 
> Itachi's counters to that: Susanoo


 She is physically strong enough to pummel and destroy Itachi's Susanoo considering what she did to Madara's vastly superior one. Katsuyu's acid has the ability to kill Manda and Orochimaru, and both Sasuke and Madara's Susanoos have been shown to susceptible to acidic-based Jutsu such as Mei's Yoton and Futton. All him activating Susanoo will do is guarantee his own death.



> Itachi's moves that can win this fight: Tsukoyumi (I don't see Tsunade as a CQC fighter being able to fight without maintaining eye-contact without any training prior to this), Susanoo smashing her body like Sasuke did to Danzo, Susanoo doing whatever that will render her body useless
> 
> Tsunade's counters to that: Regenerating her cells


 Tsukuyomi won't finish her, because Byakugo will heal the physiological damage and keep her in fighting shape.




> The only possible way for Tsunade to win this is to outlast him, but Itachi isn't going to stay in Susanoo for the whole fight, when he realizes he is losing too much energy, he will just start fighting more chakra-friendly because he's in no real danger since Tsunade can't really do anything to him because she will get clone-feinted / outmaneuvered or anything all the time.
> 
> 
> Itachi mid/high diffs.


 Him using Bunshin Kawarimis won't do anything except stall her, and she can and will outlast him. She has a significantly larger amount of stamina and endurance, so he will lose unless he aims to finish her off quickly which he cannot do. The only way Itachi is beating Tsunade is if he's unrestricted and can fight at full capacity.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2016)

Nothing Madara showed with V3 implies its superior to itachi V4
Then again tsunade punches had ZERO effect on V3 so not sure what tsunade punches can do to itschi susanoo 

Considering she likes tanking . 1 sword stab and it's over


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Nothing Madara showed with V3 implies its superior to itachi V4
> Then again tsunade punches had ZERO effect on V3 so not sure what tsunade punches can do to itschi susanoo
> 
> Considering she likes tanking . 1 sword stab and it's over





1 Sword stab isn't enough. She can tank many stabs. What she can't tank is a Susano chop through her body or head though.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> 1 Sword stab isn't enough. She can tank many stabs. What she can't tank is a Susano chop through her body or head though.



Oh. Totsuka is restricted


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 5, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> *Distance:* 25 meters
> *Location: *Sasuke vs. Itachi
> *Mindset: *IC
> *Knowledge: *Manga
> ...


Itachi with the intent to kill? Itachi wins low-mid difficulty. Kishimoto stated that itachi could defeat madara if most conditions were in his favour, when i say that i mean he has to end the fight quick or he's dead. An intelligent man, the most knowledgeable one in the series i believe that was stated but im not too confident on that one. Cheers!


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 5, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Well, regular shosen is supposed to heal physical wounds, too, but it still healed Tsukuyomi's effects anyway. I have a hard time believing that Byakugou, the ultimate medical ninjutsu technique, would fail to heal something a few seconds of a simple shosen could achieve.
> 
> Tsukuyomi must cause some sort of physical trauma or else Kakashi and Sasuke wouldn't have ended up in comas.
> 
> ...


Itachi's visual prowess was so praised it came second to Shisiu's in the entire clan. Praised by danzo, who tsunade feared. Im pretty confident if itachi wanted to use genjustu under tsunade he would and turn out succesful.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 5, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It should be noted that Tsunade could not break Madara's Ribcage Susano'o on the first try whereas the Raikage was able to do it to Sasuke's Ribcage.
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Yet Madara states that she's stronger than Raikage? Did losing that one arm, really downgrade his strength?



I don't know, are you sure you aren't just making that up?  You'll need to provide some hard evidence to establish that the pictures Kishi drew aren't simply fanfiction.  Perhaps something along the lines of what feels obvious to me, or spotty applications of deductive reasoning.


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> She is physically strong enough to pummel and destroy Itachi's Susanoo considering what she did to Madara's vastly superior one.


Madara's V3 Susanoo being superior to Itachi's V4 with legendary Yata Mirror? Can you post proofie of this illogical claim? And yeah she totally did DESTROY his Susanoo, except only thing she did was push it to the ground.



> Katsuyu's acid has the ability to kill Manda and Orochimaru, and both Sasuke and Madara's Susanoos have been shown to susceptible to acidic-based Jutsu such as Mei's Yoton and Futton. All him activating Susanoo will do is guarantee his own death.


Cool. Yata Mirror.



> Tsukuyomi won't finish her, because Byakugo will heal the physiological damage and keep her in fighting shape.


I didn't mean Tsukoyumi GG as in he uses Tsukoyumi and leaves the battlefield, but he uses it as a distraction and finishes her while she's under control of it.
I am not even gonna go into Byakugo healing physiological damage argument because it's just bs.




> Him using Bunshin Kawarimis won't do anything except stall her, and she can and will outlast him. She has a significantly larger amount of stamina and endurance, so he will lose unless he aims to finish her off quickly which he cannot do. The only way Itachi is beating Tsunade is if he's unrestricted and can fight at full capacity.


I was just stating that he has other defenses against her one-way fighting style that doesn't cost too much chakra and he can finish her while feinting with the already mentioned Tsukoyumi+kill or whatever.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2016)

The Proffessor said:


> Itachi with the intent to kill? Itachi wins low-mid difficulty. Kishimoto stated that itachi could defeat madara if most conditions were in his favour, when i say that i mean he has to end the fight quick or he's dead. An intelligent man, the most knowledgeable one in the series i believe that was stated but im not too confident on that one. Cheers!



Kishi never stated itachi stood a chance against Madara 
He will be killed like a common house fly


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I take it no answer to it then





			
				The people you ignored said:
			
		

> Any Genjutsu is broken with a simple Genjustu release, let's not forget that Orochimaru could literally move his body while inside _Itachis _*Paralysis Genjutsu* and Orochimarus Genjutsu resistance is like what? Negative 5.0? With her brilliant chakra control and knowledge on her opponent she'll know if she's in a Genjutsu. If you wanna be anal about it though Katsuyu clone on the shoulder works just fine. If the chakra connection isn't strong enough to release her, she opts out for the pain method and uses a small amount of acid to inflict pain on Tsunade which wakes her up from Itachis Genjutsu





> If one is to go off track record genjutsu has always landed .


and Amaterasu has never killed even after landing on people, Yatai Kuzushi has always landed, Tsunade has always landed a punch on her opponent, so what's your point? Track record means jack shit in your case especially since the opponent in this scenario already has counters to measly Sharingan Genjutsu.


> Against people with much better supplementary tactics and battle smarts than tsunade . But sure I gues ground pound is a counter to genjutsu


Ignorance.





> itachi would always get from point A to B quicker than manda in any race that's what makes him faster Tsunade is faster than manda It's comical to believe manda is faster than itachi who clearly showed he is on an equal speed level to killer bee who crosses mountains quicker than Sasuke with his Sharingan can see A bullet is a lot smaller than me but is still a lot faster than me As is a cat or a small dog or a rabbit


Are you just trying to say that Itachi is quicker than Manda??

Sorry if there are any typos I didn't edit this post much.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> and Amaterasu has never killed even after landing on people, Yatai Kuzushi has always landed, Tsunade has always landed a punch on her opponent, so what's your point? Track record means jack shit in your case especially since the opponent in this scenario already has counters to measly Sharingan Genjutsu.
> Ignorance.Are you just trying to say that Itachi is quicker than Manda??
> 
> Sorry if there are any typos I didn't edit this post much.



Yes itachi is faster than manda by feats and hype .  

FCD landed twice on unsuspecting opponents who didn't even know they were being attacked 

And once on fodder zetsu who saw the attack coming and had to be injured first for it to land 

Genjutsu has landed on far more apt ninja than zetsu . 

And yes zabuza , danzo , orochimaru , deidara 

Have FAaAAaAar better tactics and skills than tsunade to avoid genjutsu . Hidden mist >>>>>> anything tsunade has to avoid genjutsu 

Yes tsunade can use partner method . That would need for her to have summoned before genjutsu is launched . I don't see that happening , seeing that despite the risk of being caught in it she didn't go straight for Katsuyu against Madara 

So I don't like this whole blind sannin wank 
She can counter genjutsu via partner method thanks to Katsuyu as they share chakra . She however needs to have summoned it first and partner method has no baring on tskuyomi 

Itachi simply would have a much easier time getting to her than she would to him it's that simple


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yes itachi is faster than manda by feats and hype. FCD landed twice on unsuspecting opponents who didn't even know they were being attacked And once on fodder zetsu who saw the attack coming and had to be injured first for it to land Genjutsu has landed on far more apt ninja than zetsu .


Okay, none of that changes its "track record" so, as usual, I don't know what you're trying to imply. You also ignored Tsunades punches always landing & Amaterasu never killing but whatever. 





> And yes zabuza , danzo , orochimaru , deidara Have FAaAAaAar better tactics and skills than tsunade to avoid genjutsu . Hidden mist >>>>>> anything tsunade has to avoid genjutsu


Ignorance referred to GroundPound>Genjutsu. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. 





> Yes tsunade can use partner method . That would need for her to have summoned before genjutsu is launched . I don't see that happening , seeing that despite the risk of being caught in it she didn't go straight for Katsuyu against Madara


I see you've chosen the anal route. Well:

I see her using summoning Jutsu before being caught in a Genjutsu. That's _your_ logic.


> So I don't like this whole blind sannin wank
> She can counter genjutsu via partner method thanks to Katsuyu as they share chakra . She however needs to have summoned it first and partner method has no baring on tskuyomi


This is why I asked you to read the thread. I'm not gonna spoon feed logic to you, if you want your answer read the thread my dude cause I'm too tired.


> Itachi simply would have a much easier time getting to her than she would to him it's that simple


Okay, whatever.

Again @Icegaze sorry if there are any typos I'm on my phone and don't really want to go through editing this.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Okay, none of that changes its "track record" so, as usual, I don't know what you're trying to imply. You also ignored Tsunades punches always landing & Amaterasu never killing but whatever. Ignorance referred to GroundPound>Genjutsu. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I see you've chosen the anal route. Well:
> 
> I see her using summoning Jutsu before being caught in a Genjutsu. That's _your_ logic.
> This is why I asked you to read the thread. I'm not gonna spoon feed logic to you, if you want your answer read the thread my dude cause I'm too tired.
> ...


 It's ok kid Imma leave you to it 
I find it too funny that ground pound which is inherently slower than genjutsu can happen before itachi looks at her 

But oh well 

Ground pound kills itachi and she calls it a day 
.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 5, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It should be noted that Tsunade could not break Madara's Ribcage Susano'o on the first try whereas the Raikage was able to do it to Sasuke's Ribcage.
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Yet Madara states that she's stronger than Raikage? Did losing that one arm, really downgrade his strength?



Really though this is an excellent observation and the way it it written and presented is a way people should strive to emulate.  Examples such as this are why I nominated Ryuzaki for MotM in the first place even though we disagree a lot, and it's always tempting to only support people who's viewpoint aligns with your own.

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Aug 5, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Madara's V3 Susanoo being superior to Itachi's V4 with legendary Yata Mirror? Can you post proofie of this illogical claim? And yeah she totally did DESTROY his Susanoo, except only thing she did was push it to the ground.


 The Yata Mirror's hype is ambiguous and it's nigh-featless, and I'm referring to Tsunade destroying Madara's V1 Susanoo which is more powerful than any variant of Susanoo Itachi has.




> Cool. Yata Mirror.


 Look above.




> I didn't mean Tsukoyumi GG as in he uses Tsukoyumi and leaves the battlefield, but he uses it as a distraction and finishes her while she's under control of it.
> I am not even gonna go into Byakugo healing physiological damage argument because it's just bs.


 Tsunade could heal Kakashi and Sasuke from the physiological damage caused by Tsukuyomi by tapping them on the head with a basic Shosen. Yet, Byakugo, the pinnacle of medical ninjutsu and chakra control in the series won't heal her?





> I was just stating that he has other defenses against her one-way fighting style that doesn't cost too much chakra and he can finish her while feinting with the already mentioned Tsukoyumi+kill or whatever.


 How does he finish her though? What does he kill her with?


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The Yata Mirror's hype is ambiguous and it's nigh-featless


Lmao no, me stating that a legendary shield blocks chakra punches doesn't make it overhyped. The databook saying it makes Itachi's Susanoo invincible, Zetsu saying the same thing makes it overhyped.



> and I'm referring to Tsunade destroying Madara's V1 Susanoo which is more powerful than any variant of Susanoo Itachi has.


Based on what?




> Tsunade could heal Kakashi and Sasuke from the physiological damage caused by Tsukuyomi by tapping them on the head with a basic Shosen. Yet, Byakugo, the pinnacle of medical ninjutsu and chakra control in the series won't heal her?


Fair enough, I forgot about this.





> How does he finish her though? What does he kill her with?


Depends on his knowledge really, we know that suffocation is one way of killing her so if Itachi figures that out, then we got it.
Slicing her head off until she runs out of chakra should work in case he doesn't figure out the suffocation part.


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> It's ok kid Imma leave you to it I find it too funny that ground pound which is inherently slower than genjutsu can happen before itachi looks at her But oh well
> Ground pound kills itachi and she calls it a day
> .


Im at a loss for words.

-snip-

I never claimed ground pound beats Genjutsu that's just you acting childish.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 5, 2016)

*Spoiler*: _Itachis Arsenal_ 




Shuriken
Katon/Suiton
Clones Feints
Sharingan Genjutsu
Tsukuyomi x1
Amaterasu x2
Susanoo.



*Spoiler*: _Tsunades Arsenal_ 




Katsuyu - Zesshi Nensan
Sozo Saisei / Byakugo
One-Shot Punches
Experience with Susanoo.



*Spoiler*: _Itachis Arsenal applied._ 



Itachi uses Shuriken: Tanked/Not a problem.

Itachi uses Katon/Suiton: Tanked/Not a problem.

Clone Feints: Waste of Itachis precious chakra though it's not like he's aware of that.

Sharingan Genjutsu: Brilliant Chakra control & partner method if you want to be anal. So Tanked/Not a problem

Tsukuyomi: It is Healed.(Again)
Tanked/Not a problem

Amaterasu: Healed or Wasted on Katsuyu who then splits into hundreds of pieces.
Tanked/Not a problem

Itachis Susanoo:Destroyed/Not a problem.



*Spoiler*: _Tsunades Arsenal Applied_ 



Tsunade summons Katsuyu and full sized Zesshi Nensan is fired: Itachi is forced to use Susanoo right at the get-go and whether you like it or not its going to exhaust him.
Tanked/A problem since his Susanoo will start melting.

Tsunade activates Byakugo/Sozo Saisei: Anything Itachi throws at her will get healed.
A huge problem

Tsunade lands a Monster One-Shot Punch: Itachi dies.
Not Tanked/A problem.




Okay now obviously Tsunade won't tank everything because she can dodge/avoid a few of those attacks however in the event she is hit by any of them she will be fine. Itachi however must rely on never being hit and avoiding every attack including Zesshi Nensan and using Susanoo to protect himself from Zesshi Nensan creates an opening. While Katsuyu keeps using Zesshi Nensan to melt his Susanoo Tsunade can get around Yata. If Yata is being focused on blocking Tsunade the Zesshi Nensan hits Susanoo vulnerable spots.

I just can't see Itachi winning this.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 5, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> ...


By healing off amaterasu you mean her constantly healing the tissue that gets burnt for the whole fight?

And based on what does she destroy V4 Yata Mirror Susanoo?

I agree with your other points.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Aug 5, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Lmao no, me stating that a legendary shield blocks chakra punches doesn't make it overhyped. The databook saying it makes Itachi's Susanoo invincible, Zetsu saying the same thing makes it overhyped.


 Yet, where was this "invincible" Yata Mirror of his when he fought Nagato or Kabuto? Clearly he didn't think he could simply camp in it and no-sell all of their attacks. When Black Zetsu said the Sword of Totsuka and Yata Mirror made his Susanoo "invincible" the concept of him being Kaguya's will wasn't thought of yet for obvious reasons. Black Zetsu also didn't know what a Susanoo was considering he referred to it as "this Susanoo technique" which implies lack of knowledge, and was going based off of old myths and legends during his convo with White Zetsu.




> Based on what?


 Hype and feats. It goes Madara's Susanoo > Sasuke's Susanoo > Itachi's Susanoo as Madara and Sasuke (specifically the former) are Indra reincarnates and have much more powerful and larger reserves of chakra which is used to create Susanoo. Itachi's Susanoo as a whole has next to no notable durability feats to say where it truly stands. Sasuke's stronger V1 Susanoo was getting broken by V2 A and his V3 got it's back blown open by Danzo's Futon. Madara's V1 Susanoo could withstand a chop from V2 A with no damage, a direct punch from Byakugo Tsunade, an attack from behind by a flying V2 A, and took a kick from Byakugo Tsunade to destroy. Even his Susanoo's lowest form has superior feats. Even if she couldn't destroy it, it makes no difference because she has dealt with much more and more powerful Susanoos at once, has survived them, and has even overwhelmed them.




> Fair enough, I forgot about this.


 Alright.






> Depends on his knowledge really, we know that suffocation is one way of killing her so if Itachi figures that out, then we got it.
> Slicing her head off until she runs out of chakra should work in case he doesn't figure out the suffocation part.


 Suffocation won't kill her, she survived having her spinal cord penetrated and was still able to keep fighting and moving. She did the same even when nearly her whole abdomen including her ribs and lungs would've been pierced if not completely ruptured, and Itachi is not going to aim for slicing off her head because he'd be in a disadvantageous position already and unable to do so.


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 5, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> By healing off amaterasu you mean her constantly healing the tissue that gets burnt for the whole fight?


If she let Katsuyu absorb her, the flames could be removed and burn only Katsuyus clone. She also could use the Ay method. Let's say Ama lands on her face, she just rips it off and heals. 



> And based on what does she destroy V4 Yata Mirror Susanoo? I agree with your other points.


I never said she'd break Yata just destroy Susanoo. Yata can only cover the front of Itachis Susanoo. So he must choose between using Yata to guard himself from Tsunade which leaves Katsuyu an opening or focusing on Katsuyu which leaves Tsunade an opening.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Aug 5, 2016)

Way too much nonsense going on in this thread. 
No way Tsunade of all people is going to fight Itachi effectively without being put in a Genjutsu. Whether it be an easy one like a finger Genjutsu or Tsukuyomi. 
Once in it, she's at Itachi's mercy. 

And Itachi's V4 with Yata bodies Madara's V3. Not even comparable.…

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Veracity (Aug 6, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What opening ? Tsunade just ran up and punched Susano'O, Madara wasn't doing anything initially.
> 
> You can only argue that Mei's first suiton attempt was to block the Katon so that Tsunade could keep going, but then she followed up with a water dragon and hit Susano'O, while A and Onoki approached from behind with the weight alteration. Tell me, what opening were they supposed to create ? IF anything, Mei and Tsunade created the opening for them.
> 
> ...


Sorry I was busy but let me get back to this.

Clearly they created an opening. That was the entire point. Madara even jumped back after tsunade punched him and was overwhelmed with Sution techniques. Raikage clearly hit the Sussano to create an opening, as the damage done by the Raikage was close to non existent.

And okay? IF Mei damaged Sussano and didn't even manage the smallest crack then the damage wasn't serious enough for Tsuande not to have still cracked the Sussano without Mei. Sussano also wasn't visible after Tsuande kicked Madara and considering he came out of the rubble without Sussano, one could conclude that Tsuande straight obliterated the construct.

I have no idea how you derived the time frame between Tsuande punching Sussano and Kicking it, and then further enough to compare the difference in time between said attacks. You literally don't even know. Point is, Mei's water dragon didn't do like any damage, and Madara's Sussano already regenerates quick, therefore?

You would have a point about the force( maybe a little, cause it's clear that the Raikage's hit did very Minimal damage) if Tsuande didn't kick Madara hard enough to send him not only out of his construct, but into a fiery crater in the ground. The force inflicted from Raikage's blow wouldn't help Tsuande obliterate Sussano much.

The Madara in that scene... Whether or not he can use arms is OUTRIGHT useless in this discussion because my intial post was about Tsuande busting Madara's ribcage in that exact scene. Not a modified scene in which Madara blocks.

The strentgh and durability of Sussano contrast heavily. Sussano is a lot more durable than it is physically strong. The Sussano Sasuke used to combat Danzo was like Sakura's strentgh lol.

It doesn't matter if the thread is fucking about Itachi lol. I brought up a point that wasn't about Itachi. You know I can do that right?

The time frame Itachi leveled up Sussano was close to the time frame that Madara did because why?


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yet, where was this "invincible" Yata Mirror of his when he fought Nagato or Kabuto? Clearly he didn't think he could simply camp in it and no-sell all of their attacks.


Ask Kishi, not me. There were countless moments like this in manga where character could turn tides of battle if they used an ability from past.



> When Black Zetsu said the Sword of Totsuka and Yata Mirror made his Susanoo "invincible" the concept of him being Kaguya's will wasn't thought of yet for obvious reasons. Black Zetsu also didn't know what a Susanoo was considering he referred to it as "this Susanoo technique" which implies lack of knowledge, and was going based off of old myths and legends during his convo with White Zetsu.


Obviously I didn't mean it literally, that Itachi's Susanoo is invincible, I am fully aware that it's overexaggerating from Zetsu's part, but we can deduce from it that Yata Mirror is pretty strong and maaaaybe will even work against a basic technique that lets user concentrate chakra in their hands, lmao.




> Itachi's Susanoo as a whole has next to no notable durability feats to say where it truly stands.


Except being the only reason Itachi survived Kirin?



> Sasuke's stronger V1 Susanoo was getting broken by V2 A and his V3 got it's back blown open by Danzo's Futon.


Sasuke's Susanoo was unstable at the time so it would be mess if we took feats from that fight tbh, it was also clear that Sasuke at that time was still figuring out the potential behind Susanoo, and Danzo himself said that Sasuke's powers are still nothing compared to Itachi's. Just because Sasuke has more potential by being incarnation of Indra doesn't mean an ability that he got few chapters ago is going to be stronger than his brother's who has mastered it years prior to the fight with Sasuke.



> Madara's V1 Susanoo could withstand a chop from V2 A with no damage, a direct punch from Byakugo Tsunade, an attack from behind by a flying V2 A, and took a kick from Byakugo Tsunade to destroy. Even his Susanoo's lowest form has superior feats.


Agree.



> Even if she couldn't destroy it, it makes no difference because she has dealt with much more and more powerful Susanoos at once, has survived them, and has even overwhelmed them.


It makes a huge difference because unlike Madara, Itachi has no reason to clown around and will actually try to take advantage of Tsunade not being able to bypass his defense.




> Suffocation won't kill her, she survived having her spinal cord penetrated and was still able to keep fighting and moving. She did the same even when nearly her whole abdomen including her ribs and lungs would've been pierced if not completely ruptured, and Itachi is not going to aim for slicing off her head because he'd be in a disadvantageous position already and unable to do so.


He can make her turn off the regeneration in his genjutsu and then simply slice her head off, the same way he manipulated Kabuto while under his genjutsu or how Sasuke controlled Manda to escape from Deidara.




HandfullofNaruto said:


> I never said she'd break Yata just destroy Susanoo. Yata can only cover the front of Itachis Susanoo. So he must choose between using Yata to guard himself from Tsunade which leaves Katsuyu an opening or focusing on Katsuyu which leaves Tsunade an opening.


He doesn't need Yata Mirror to protect himself from slug's acid, lmao. V4 Susanoo is enough.



sanninme rikudo said:


> Way too much nonsense going on in this thread.
> No way Tsunade of all people is going to fight Itachi effectively without being put in a Genjutsu. Whether it be an easy one like a finger Genjutsu or Tsukuyomi.
> Once in it, she's at Itachi's mercy.
> 
> And Itachi's V4 with Yata bodies Madara's V3. Not even comparable.…


Exactly, some people overrate medic ninjas too much.

I mean they think that if Itachi halved her, she would still be able to regenerate all of it.. Sometimes I am shook from what I read from them, thinking Tsunade's regeneration is on level of Juubi Jin's regeneration or wtf.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Aug 6, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Ask Kishi, not me. There were countless moments like this in manga where character could turn tides of battle if they used an ability from past.


 I think it's safe to say even Kishimoto doesn't view it as truly invincible then. 




> Obviously I didn't mean it literally, that Itachi's Susanoo is invincible, I am fully aware that it's overexaggerating from Zetsu's part, but we can deduce from it that Yata Mirror is pretty strong and maaaaybe will even work against a basic technique that lets user concentrate chakra in their hands, lmao.


 Alright, so let's say it can defend against Tsunade's punches. It can only defend from one direction and Itachi cannot maintain it for long so what then?





> Except being the only reason Itachi survived Kirin?


 It also got destroyed in the process, so I don't think that counts very much. 




> Sasuke's Susanoo was unstable at the time so it would be mess if we took feats from that fight tbh, it was also clear that Sasuke at that time was still figuring out the potential behind Susanoo, and Danzo himself said that Sasuke's powers are still nothing compared to Itachi's. Just because Sasuke has more potential by being incarnation of Indra doesn't mean an ability that he got few chapters ago is going to be stronger than his brother's who has mastered it years prior to the fight with Sasuke.


 When was his Susanoo stated to be unstable? Him figuring it out doesn't change the fact that his should logically be stronger due to how Susanoo works. What type of "mastery" of Susanoo does Itachi have that implies that his Susanoo is beyond Sasuke's? Danzo was also referring to Sasuke's abilities overall, not his Susanoo specifically. 




> Agree.


 Nothing to say here then.




> It makes a huge difference because unlike Madara, Itachi has no reason to clown around and will actually try to take advantage of Tsunade not being able to bypass his defense.


 Except we clearly saw his Mokuton Bunshins trying to kill all of the Gokage? They were not clowning around whatsoever, they were aiming to kill them.





> He can make her turn off the regeneration in his genjutsu and then simply slice her head off, the same way he manipulated Kabuto while under his genjutsu or how Sasuke controlled Manda to escape from Deidara.


 I agree that he can force her to do that, and it could lead to victory, but I think that's unlikely with how the fight would probably play out though which I explained earlier.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 6, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> He can make her turn off the regeneration in his genjutsu and then simply slice her head off, the same way he manipulated Kabuto while under his genjutsu or how Sasuke controlled Manda to escape from Deidara.


 Not one but two counters to Itachis Genjutsu.
Genjutsu>Turn off Regen>Decapitation? I don't think so.





> He doesn't need Yata Mirror to protect himself from slug's acid, lmao. V4 Susanoo is enough.


 So V4 just tanks multiple barrages of Zesshi Nensan? Even though acid has melted Susanoos structure in the past? I'm done. Ya I wouldn't be surprised if V4 could tank one Zesshi Nensan but multiple? While dealing with Tsunade? I think we're starting to overestimate Itachis Susaoo. We've seen Susanoo melt from far weaker acid attacks so to assume Itachis V4 doesn't take legitimate damage from Zesshi Nensan is just overrating his Susanoo.


> Exactly, some people overrate medic ninjas too much.


Did you really just compare her to a regular medic ninja? Wow, why can't we just say some people overrate (The Fifth Hokage/The Legendary Sannin Tsunade/The Slug Princess) not "Medic Ninja". 





> I mean they think that if Itachi halved her, she would still be able to regenerate all of it.. Sometimes I am shook from what I read from them, thinking Tsunade's regeneration is on level of Juubi Jin's regeneration or wtf.


I haven't seen anybody say that on this thread.(Juubi Jin Regen/Continue after bisection.) That she will be cut in half then continue fighting.. even though she basically did that in the manga and it was implied that she could've healed herself a lot sooner had she not completely exhausted herself healing the four other kage & fighting 25 Edo Tensei Madara Clones using Susanoo.

Tsunade is winning this fight with High Difficulty, we can do this all day.


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 7, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Not one but two counters to Itachis Genjutsu.
> Genjutsu>Turn off Regen>Decapitation? I don't think so. So V4 just tanks multiple barrages of Zesshi Nensan? Even though acid has melted Susanoos structure in the past? I'm done. Ya I wouldn't be surprised if V4 could tank one Zesshi Nensan but multiple? While dealing with Tsunade? I think we're starting to overestimate Itachis Susaoo. We've seen Susanoo melt from far weaker acid attacks so to assume Itachis V4 doesn't take legitimate damage from Zesshi Nensan is just overrating his Susanoo.
> Did you really just compare her to a regular medic ninja? Wow, why can't we just say some people overrate (The Fifth Hokage/The Legendary Sannin Tsunade/The Slug Princess) not "Medic Ninja". I haven't seen anybody say that on this thread.(Juubi Jin Regen/Continue after bisection.) That she will be cut in half then continue fighting.. even though she basically did that in the manga and it was implied that she could've healed herself a lot sooner had she not completely exhausted herself healing the four other kage & fighting 25 Edo Tensei Madara Clones using Susanoo.
> 
> Tsunade is winning this fight with High Difficulty, we can do this all day.






> We've seen Susanoo melt from far weaker acid attacks so to assume Itachis V4 doesn't take legitimate damage from Zesshi Nensan is just overrating his Susanoo.



We've seen weaker acid melt weaker Susano's.  Besides, any evidence that the acids they used are so much weaker? apart from obvious quantity. 
No body can fight while being decapitated. Unless you're Mads or Oro/Kabuto using Oral Rebirth.

Raikage and Bee had the right idea when they took out Kisame's head. 

A Karate chop from Itachi's Susano will definitely make Tsunade's head go flying. 


Susano has 4 arms. 1 arm to hold each arm of Tsunade, the other one to hold the body and another one to cut her head off.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2016)

Lol what far weaker acid attacks ? Mei lava or mei mist?
And on what basis are her attacks weaker  Than katsuyu acid spit

Also last I checked fucking rib cage susanoo from an exhausted sasuke could tank lava casually


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 8, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Clearly they created an opening. That was the entire point. Madara even jumped back after tsunade punched him and was overwhelmed with Sution techniques. Raikage clearly hit the Sussano to create an opening, as the damage done by the Raikage was close to non existent.


Ok you clearly ignored everything I said about this, I explained why that whole sequence wasn't solely aiming to create an opening for Tsunade.
You seem to be doing this alot in the latter posts, ignoring everything I say and assert your own points. Thats not how a debate works, you have to adress my points or just concede.



> And okay? IF Mei damaged Sussano and didn't even manage the smallest crack then the damage wasn't serious enough for Tsuande not to have still cracked the Sussano without Mei. Sussano also wasn't visible after Tsuande kicked Madara and considering he came out of the rubble without Sussano, one could conclude that Tsuande straight obliterated the construct


.
Lets just say the durability treshold for Susano'O is 60.
Mei hits it for 5, Tsunade hits it for 40 and Raikage/onoki combo hit it for 15.
Eventhough Mei's hit is nothing compared to Tsunade's, you can't disregard it in the grandscheme of things because it still contributed in SusanoO's destruction.



> I have no idea how you derived the time frame between Tsuande punching Sussano and Kicking it, and then further enough to compare the difference in time between said attacks. You literally don't even know. Point is, Mei's water dragon didn't do like any damage, and Madara's Sussano already regenerates quick, therefore?


How ?
First instace : Tsunade punches it, Madara is launched back, he uses a katon, Mei stops the katon with water wall, and then uses water dragon.
Second instance : Madara gets hit by water dragon, and right after Tsunade & A hit it simultaneously.
There is nothing in between Water dragon landing and Tsunade connecting.
In the first instance Madara uses Katon and Mei uses water wall to stop it in between two hits. There is more going on, so the time frame is longer.




> You would have a point about the force( maybe a little, cause it's clear that the Raikage's hit did very Minimal damage) if Tsuande didn't kick Madara hard enough to send him not only out of his construct, but into a fiery crater in the ground. The force inflicted from Raikage's blow wouldn't help Tsuande obliterate Sussano much.



I have a point, you just keep ignoring it.
If you hold out your punch in front of you, and someone runs into it, your punch will still inflict some damage. In our case, A's blow pushed Madara into Tsunade's kick. So yes, it made the kick stronger.



> The Madara in that scene... Whether or not he can use arms is OUTRIGHT useless in this discussion because my intial post was about Tsuande busting Madara's ribcage in that exact scene. Not a modified scene in which Madara blocks.



We are debating whether Tsunade can bust Susano'O or not, in a fight she is in against Itachi.
When I say "the Susano'O user can block her hits", it has nothing to do with Madara *choosing* not to block them.
The point is, they can block it and blocking it will reduce the damage Susano'O sustains.
Its not rocket science, it is pretty simple my friend. Just concede the point and we can move on.


> The strentgh and durability of Sussano contrast heavily. Sussano is a lot more durable than it is physically strong. The Sussano Sasuke used to combat Danzo was like Sakura's strentgh lol.


Its irrelevant to the point I'm making.
We know for a fact that Deva realm doesn't compare to Naruto in terms of strength, and yet he can block a hit and avoid getting wounded gravely.

There is a difference between Tsunade's punch directly connecting with the torso, or connecting with the arms. Even if it is strong enough to erase the arms, it won't have much power left to bust the ribcage.
Again, just concede and we move on from this I'm getting bored.



> It doesn't matter if the thread is fucking about Itachi lol. I brought up a point that wasn't about Itachi. You know I can do that right?


Why would you bring up a point which not only has nothing to do with Itachi but has nothing to do with the thread as well.

So when I said "Susano'O user can block hits" you went back and read Tsunade vs Madara, saw Madara not blocking the hits(conscious decision on his part) and then came to the conclusion that a Susano'O user can't block hits ?
That even makes less sense.
But whatever, lets get back on track and debate the actual thread, so from now on, please assume that I am speaking in terms of relative context whenever I mention Susano'O doing this and that because Madara's decisions are irrelevant here.



> The time frame Itachi leveled up Sussano was close to the time frame that Madara did because why?



Because it only took a Kunai to move like 10 meters.
Itachi was using higher stages, there is more material to regenerate to advance from stage 2 to 3, then the material required to regenerate a small crack infront of the ribcage, and Itachi did that in his deathbed.
Also like I mentioned, there is no evidence that suggests that Madara's Susano'O and its regeneration rate is anything special.

So this shouldn't be a question. Your claim is baseless, not only that but Itachi has feats of doing something more impressive  than just regenerating a small crack on a V1.5 ribcage in a similar timeframe.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> So V4 just tanks multiple barrages of Zesshi Nensan?



In his sleep.
Best feat of Mei's acid is slowly eatin away the ribcage. Thats more impressive than anything Katsuyu has done.


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 9, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> We've seen weaker acid melt weaker Susano's. Besides, any evidence that the acids they used are so much weaker? apart from obvious quantity.





Icegaze said:


> Lol what far weaker acid attacks ? Mei lava or mei mist? and on what basis are her attacks weaker Than katsuyu acid spit Also last I checked fucking rib cage susanoo from an exhausted sasuke could tank lava casually





Grimmjowsensei said:


> In his sleep.
> Best feat of Mei's acid is slowly eatin away the ribcage. Thats more impressive than anything Katsuyu has done.


 Okay first off the reason Zesshi Nensan is stronger than Futon Komu No Jutsu is because Zesshi Nensan is highly concentrated acid whereas Futon Komu No Jutsu is mist that contains acidic properties. Even though it's much much much less concentrated than Katuyus acid from Zesshi Nensan Susanoo started to melt immediately. If Zesshi Nensan a far more powerful acid attack lands on Susanoo it's going to take legitimate damage.

Also I must know, since when does being exhausted take away from Susanoos defense? He was exhausted therefore acid melts it? That's stupid. The best Susanoo can do to defend is put on extra layers which is useless when facing acidic attacks since it will melt through all the layers.

Itachi can sleep all he wants, he'll end up dying either way. 
Futon Komu No Jutsu:

*Spoiler*: _Fourth Databook_ 



Mei creates a cloud of mist which she releases from her mouth. This mist contains a powerful acidic property, capable of melting bodies, and chakra defences, such as . The technique has an inherent disadvantage in that its effects are indiscriminate, limiting its usage to areas that do not contain allies. In the event that the mist escapes the containment area, the user can adjust the  of the mist to safer levels.

Though the mist is corrosive to all around it, the user seems to be immune to it, as Mei used it in an enclosed area without endangering herself.


Zesshi Nensan:
*Spoiler*: _Second Databook_ 




NINJUTSU; Zesshi Nensan (Tongue and Teeth Acidic Paste)
User: Katsuyu
Offensive; Close, Medium, Long Ranges; Rank: none

Main text

A highly concentrated acidic paste is suddenly released from the mouth! The acid boasts such high density and concentration it dilutes even stone, vaporizing it! There are no setup moves to do before this jutsu's activation. Thanks to this one can easily strike, catching the enemy unawares, which has the advantage of denying them any opportunity to dodge.

Caption

-Thawing, dissolving and melting* into nothingness, the rain of strong acid causes everything to fade away.

Picture comment

-The acidic rain is spilled out all of a sudden, with a timing that won't even allow for anticipation! All things it touches will melt away, losing their shapes once and for all (tn: confusing sentence: I don't know if I got it 100% right).





			
				Sapherosth said:
			
		

> Nobody can fight while being decapitated. Unless you're Mads or Oro/Kabuto using Oral Rebirth. Raikage and Bee had the right idea when they took out Kisame's head. A Karate chop from Itachi's Susano will definitely make Tsunade's head go flying. Susano has 4 arms. 1 arm to hold each arm of Tsunade, the other one to hold the body and another one to cut her head off.


Id agree if Tsunade were dumb, deaf & blind but she isn't.


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 9, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Okay first off the reason Zesshi Nensan is stronger than Futon Komu No Jutsu is because Zesshi Nensan is highly concentrated acid whereas Futon Komu No Jutsu is mist that contains acidic properties. Even though it's much much much less concentrated than Katuyus acid from Zesshi Nensan Susanoo started to melt immediately. If Zesshi Nensan a far more powerful acid attack lands on Susanoo it's going to take legitimate damage.
> 
> Also I must know, since when does being exhausted take away from Susanoos defense? He was exhausted therefore acid melts it? That's stupid. The best Susanoo can do to defend is put on extra layers which is useless when facing acidic attacks since it will melt through all the layers.
> 
> ...





At best it's going to do just this.


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 9, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> At best it's going to do just this.


#Spoilerlivesmatter
"At its best" highly concentrated _acid_ is going to melt Susanoo the way lava does? I'm not buying that at all. Zesshi Nensan acid that's so concentrated it "dilutes stone" isn't going to be blocked like Mei's attacks. It will completely melt Susanoo and in the event it is tanked by Itachis Susanoo it cannot stand multiple barrages of Zesshi Nensan especially while also focusing on grabbing Tsunades arm, other arm & body so he can try to decapitate her.


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 9, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> #Spoilerlivesmatter
> "At its best" highly concentrated _acid_ is going to melt Susanoo the way lava does? I'm not buying that at all. Zesshi Nensan acid that's so concentrated it "dilutes stone" isn't going to be blocked like Mei's attacks. It will completely melt Susanoo and in the event it is tanked by Itachis Susanoo it cannot stand multiple barrages of Zesshi Nensan especially while also focusing on grabbing Tsunades arm, other arm & body so he can try to decapitate her.




 They look and do pretty much the same thing. 

Wait....So if Kasuyu is sending barrages of acid at Susano, how will Tsunade have the time to intercept and attack as well? Wouldn't Tsunade also be melted completely as well since she'll be close to Susano? and the attacks covers a wide range?

Surely Tsunade's body and Byakugo cannot heal fast enough from an acid that can supposedly "melt Susano completely"... right? 

You're right about the spoiler tag, I should've used it. My bad.

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 9, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> They look and do pretty much the same thing.


 Acid & Lava? Really? My understanding was that Acid corrodes while Lava only melts. 





> Wait. So if Katsuyu is sending barrages of acid at Susanoo, how will Tsunade have the time to intercept and attack as well? Wouldn't Tsunade also be melted completely as well since she'll be close to Susano? and the attacks covers a wide range? Surely Tsunade's body and Byakugo cannot heal fast enough from an acid that can supposedly "melt Susano completely" right?


Katsuyu will simply avoid hitting Tsunade. The AOE is large when she's not divided. If Katsuyu used clones to surround Susanoo while Tsunade stayed on top of her, she could avoid Zesshi Nensan and come in when she sees an opening. If Tsunade is on the ground going toe to toe with Itachis Susanoo then she Katsuyus clones could still avoid hitting her after all acid won't flood the battlefield it will corrode anything it touches. She can't heal from that attack if Itachi is pressuring her already. Though like I said it's very unlikely she will be caught in Katsuyus Zesshi Nensan they're working together after all. 





> You're right about the spoiler tag, I should've used it. My bad.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Okay first off the reason Zesshi Nensan is stronger than Futon Komu No Jutsu is because Zesshi Nensan is highly concentrated acid whereas Futon Komu No Jutsu is mist that contains acidic properties. Even though it's much much much less concentrated than Katuyus acid from Zesshi Nensan Susanoo started to melt immediately. If Zesshi Nensan a far more powerful acid attack lands on Susanoo it's going to take legitimate damage.
> 
> Also I must know, since when does being exhausted take away from Susanoos defense? He was exhausted therefore acid melts it? That's stupid. The best Susanoo can do to defend is put on extra layers which is useless when facing acidic attacks since it will melt through all the layers.
> 
> ...



I wonder what feats put acid spit over mei lava though ?

I get your point on acid spit being > acid mist 

Though that didn't even do much to V1 susanoo and Itachi got V4


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I wonder what feats put acid spit over mei lava though?


 Acid corrodes while Lava melts.


> Though that didn't even do much to V1 susanoo and Itachi got V4


This has been considered. V4 is definitely stronger and more durable than V1 I'm not going to argue that however the damage that was done to V1 from Meis acid was not only immediate but substantial in the sense that had Sasuke not escaped his V1 Susanoo would have been corroded along with his body.

Hmmm I could say that Acid Mist melting V1 is enough for Zesshi Nensan (a far stronger acidic attack) to melt V4.. that just doesn't feel right though. 

I think I'll just refer you to my recent posts where I say that Katsuyu could use multiple Zesshi Nensan to melt Susanoo. Let's also not forget Tsunades presence. Even if it doesn't completely kill Itachi and melt through his Susanoo it will be receiving legitimate damage & can possibly give Tsunade an opening. 

My money is on Zesshi Nensan eventually corroding V4 while its trying to hold off Tsunade. 

Sorry if there are any typos or problems with quoting I didn't really edit this message.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Acid corrodes while Lava melts.
> This has been considered. V4 is definitely stronger and more durable than V1 I'm not going to argue that however the damage that was done to V1 from Meis acid was not only immediate but substantial in the sense that had Sasuke not escaped his V1 Susanoo would have been corroded along with his body.
> 
> Hmmm I could say that Acid Mist melting V1 is enough for Zesshi Nensan (a far stronger acidic attack) to melt V4.. that just doesn't feel right though.
> ...



So what says susanoo is more susceptible to corrosion than melting ?? Your mind ?

Lol fanfic when this acid spit only feat is melting rock which mei attacks can do 

Lol I love how Itachi through all this is standing about trying to get hit   

I also didn't know katsuyu was immune to genjutsu but oh well


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 9, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Okay first off the reason Zesshi Nensan is stronger than Futon Komu No Jutsu is because Zesshi Nensan is highly concentrated acid whereas Futon Komu No Jutsu is mist that contains acidic properties. Even though it's much much much less concentrated than Katuyus acid from Zesshi Nensan Susanoo started to melt immediately. If Zesshi Nensan a far more powerful acid attack lands on Susanoo it's going to take legitimate damage.
> 
> Also I must know, since when does being exhausted take away from Susanoos defense? He was exhausted therefore acid melts it? That's stupid. The best Susanoo can do to defend is put on extra layers which is useless when facing acidic attacks since it will melt through all the layers.
> 
> ...




Like I said, best feat of Katsuyu's acid is melting rock. Best feat of Mei's acid is slowly melting the ribcage. 
Its pretty obvious which one of them is the better feat.

Also like others pointed out, Madara with his V1.5-V2 was able to swim inside Mei's lava. Pretty obvious that Katsuyu's acid isn't going to do anything to Susano'O onless Susano'O is dipped in a lake full of acid and the user runs out of chakra or something.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So what says susanoo is more susceptible to corrosion than melting? Your mind?


The fact that Meis weaker acid immediately started corroding Susanoo. So what says Susanoo isn't susceptible to a far stronger acidic attack, your mind?


> Lol fanfic when this acid spit only feat is melting rock which mei attacks can do


Lol fanfic when this Susanoo only feat against acid is corroding.


> Lol I love how Itachi through all this is standing about trying to get hit


No he's focusing on either Katsuyu clones or Tsunade. He has to leave himself open to do both though. Also Susanoo is obviously necessary to defend himself from Zesshi Nensan.


> I also didn't know katsuyu was immune to genjutsu but oh well


Katsuyu has three counters. Her and Tsunade are connected through Byakugo so Tsunade can pass chakra whenever and vice versa. Katsuyu can use a clone to break herself out. She can hide her eyes (though she wouldn't fight as effectively imo)

You're basically going to start this debate from square one and I'm not interested. If you want answers then go read the thread.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, best feat of Katsuyu's acid is melting rock. Best feat of Mei's acid is slowly melting the ribcage.
> Its pretty obvious which one of them is the better feat.


Yup one has a better feat since it was used against Susanoo but the other has the same exact properties just a lot stronger. Transitive logic: Meis weak acid corroded Susanoo so Katsuyus stronger acid should do the same.


> Also like others pointed out, Madara with his V1.5-V2 was able to swim inside Mei's lava. Pretty obvious that Katsuyu's acid isn't going to do anything to Susano'O onless Susano'O is dipped in a lake full of acid and the user runs out of chakra or something.


Acid corrodes while Lava only melts. I'm not surprised Meis lava attack was tanked with Susanoo. Well, I guess it was tanked.. it did start melting though.

I'll be on later with a real response but for now you guys can chew on this.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Lord Aizen (Aug 9, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Even with all the restrictions Itachi still wins without much trouble. He is much faster and more skilled in taijutsu than Tsunade, plus he has Sharingan precognition. He can also easily trick her with a quick usage of Karasu Bunshin and/or Kage Bunshin. Dodging Tsunade, blitzing her and piercing her head with kunai wouldn't be difficult for Itachi; capturing Tsunade in a Sharingan genjutsu and making her Itachi's bitch, or one-shotting with Tsukuyomi, is also very feasible.



This exactly. Tsukuyomi is a one shot kill move. the only reason it caused trauma to kakashi is because itachi let it cause trauma. If itachi wanted he could've killed kakashi. Tsunade is a tier below itachi, she stands no chance


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 9, 2016)

Personally I think Katsuyu's acid is a bit more powerful than Mei's lava. It took her lava quite a long time to eat through a chair in the Kage Summit room, whereas Katsuyu's acid pool diluted stone almost instantaneously. 

That said, its still not powerful enough to eat through a fully armoured Susano'o.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 9, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Personally I think Katsuyu's acid is a bit more powerful than Mei's lava. It took her lava quite a long time to eat through a chair in the Kage Summit room, whereas Katsuyu's acid pool diluted stone almost instantaneously.
> 
> That said, its still not powerful enough to eat through a fully armoured Susano'o.


I agree that once Susanoo adds layers it will shield the user from Acid but I don't think it just tanks it no-dif. It would melt through the same way Danzo ripped open Sasukes Susanoo, which would give Tsunade an opening. After all Futon Komu no Jutsu being a far weaker acid attack was able to corrode Ribcage Susanoo immediately so we know Susanoos chakra structure is susceptible to acidic attacks. Katsuyus Acid being far far far more concentrated would corrode a Ribcage Susanoo no problem. Adding layers does help but its not as if my argument soley relies on Zesshi Nensan killing Itachi and corroding V4 Suanoo. Tsunade is also there and will be going toe to toe with Itachi in his Susnoo and that's far more troublesome than Katsuyus Zesshi Nensan though I wouldn't consider it a non-factor since it creates an opening and _forces_ Itachi into using Susanoo which as we all know without an EMS or Edo Body that feels nothing:

Tsunade takes this fight High difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 9, 2016)

Rib cage Susano'o, sure. But even then, the one that Mei hit with Futon was certainly weaker than the one Madara used against the Gokage. The former was shattered by one of Ei's chops, the latter tanked one of Tsunade's kicks. Katsuyu's acid would melt through it faster and better than Mei's lava did, but then Tsunade probably can't shatter it while it's covered in acid either (she'll hurt herself).

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 9, 2016)

Isn't Susano'o like... way more durable than the rock? On top of that it looks like Susano'o regenerates itself. Considering the crack Tsunade did to Madara's was healed when she teamed up with Ei.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 10, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Rib cage Susano'o, sure. But even then, the one that Mei hit with Futon was certainly weaker than the one Madara used against the Gokage. The former was shattered by one of Ei's chops, the latter tanked one of Tsunade's kicks. Katsuyu's acid would melt through it faster and better than Mei's lava did, but then Tsunade probably can't shatter it while it's covered in acid either (she'll hurt herself).





LostSelf said:


> Isn't Susano'o like... way more durable than the rock? On top of that it looks like Susano'o regenerates itself. Considering the crack Tsunade did to Madara's was healed when she teamed up with Ei.


Katsuyus Zesshi Nensan:
-Won't flood the battlefield it corrodes whatever it comes into contact with.
-Is stronger than Meis Acid Mist and Lava due to its high density and ability to corrode.
-If its tanked with Susanoo, it can create an opening for Tsunade. Something like this maybe?:When it comes to comparing Susanoo we should stick with Itachi & Sasuke shouldn't we? Madara and his Susanoo are in a league of their own. I guess the main difference is Sasuke & Itachi both use Susanoo with nothing more than MS and were in immense pain while those who have EMS or an Edo Body (Itachi(Edo)/Madara(EMS/Edo)/Sasuke(EMS)) can use Susanoo with ease or no pain at all. Itachis Susanoo and Sasukes Susanoo are better for comparison imo. They're both sustained with only Mangekyo Sharingan. As for Susanoo regeneration have we seen it up close? Or was it just one panel to the next cracked/injured > not cracked/injured? _Even if_ Itachis Susanoo is constantly regenerating from Zesshi Nensan and Tsunades attacks I don't think Itachi himself is going to be taking all of this with a smile on his face.

All in all Tsunade wins High Difficulty. Itachis only chance and counter to her attacks is: Decapitation before Tsunade can do anything at all which is how I know she wins.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 10, 2016)

I actually don't think it can go through final Susano'o, imo. It's bst feat is corroding a rock and it didn't do it entirely. In the case it does, i don't think it will be as fast like Danzo's enhanced wind element.

But in the case all that is true, i suppose she can outlast him. Even though i am of the ones that doesn't see a boss summon beating Kishimoto's vibrator.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 10, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Yup one has a better feat since it was used against Susanoo but the other has the same exact properties just a lot stronger.


There is no evidence that it is alot stronger, if it is stronger at all.
Mei in my book is ranked higher than a shittyass boss summon, so I actually wouldn't be surprised if her acid and lava were on a higher level than Katsuyu's acid on a destructive scale.



> Transitive logic: Meis weak acid corroded Susanoo so Katsuyus stronger acid should do the same.


Just because it corroded a chunk of rock doesn't mean it can corrode Susano'O. 
Also just because Mei's acid was slowly corroding the weakest form of Susano'O doesn't mean it can do the same thing to its strongest form.
There is no room for transitive logic here.



> Acid corrodes while Lava only melts. I'm not surprised Meis lava attack was tanked with Susanoo. Well, I guess it was tanked.. it did start melting though.


I'm aware they are not the same thing, but that is the closest thing we have of Susano'O swimming in a pool of acid.  



> I'll be on later with a real response but for now you guys can chew on this.



There is nothing to chew on. There is absolutely no evidence that Katsuyu's acid can harm higher stages of Susano'O.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Aug 10, 2016)

How is it a debate whether or not Katsuya's acid can get through Susanoo, especially Itachi's V4?

Susanoo shouldn't be compared to stone, let alone V4 Susanoo…


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 10, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no evidence that it is alot stronger, if it is stronger at all.


Thats like saying there is no evidence that magma can melt quicker and more efficiently than a flame. Katsuyus acid is pure concentrated acid while Meis is just mist with acidic properties, yet that was enough to melt/corrode Sasukes Ribcage Susanoo. If a flame melted Susanoo Ribcage would it be safe to assume magma could melt through it as well? If not 10x more efficiently?
Inb4 Futon Komu no Jutsu and Zesshi Nensan aren't like a flame and magma: Yes it's almost exactly the same, Zesshi Nensan is super concentrated acid while Komu no Jutsu is the exact opposite, it's hardly concentrated at all, it's literally mixed in with mist. So flame vs magma.


> Mei in my book is ranked higher than a shittyass boss summon, so I actually wouldn't be surprised if her acid and lava were on a higher level than Katsuyu's acid on a destructive scale.


I have Mei ranked higher than Katsuyu but I don't think that their acidic attacks are on par with one another. Manga & Databook make that kind of obvious. As for her lava attack it's just acid & lava, one corrodes and one melts. Acid should definitely be above lava on a destructive scale. 





> Just because it corroded a chunk of rock doesn't mean it can corrode Susano'O.


Im not saying Zesshi Nensan > Rock > Susanoo. Lol. 





> Also just because Mei's acid was slowly corroding the weakest form of Susano'O doesn't mean it can do the same thing to its strongest form.


Susanoo only adds layers. It's still the same chakra structure that was melting from acid. I'm not saying Zesshi Nensan one-shots but the damage will be legitimate.





> There is no room for transitive logic here.


Honestly I thought I had edited that part out.


> I'm aware they are not the same thing, but that is the closest thing we have of Susano'O swimming in a pool of acid.


Lava & Acid can't be compared here, not effectively anyway. Sasuke tanked lava and right after that he tried to tank acid mist but couldn't. Lava<Acid.





> There is nothing to chew on. There is absolutely no evidence that Katsuyu's acid can harm higher stages of Susano'O.


Well more like no evidence higher stages can tanks such an acidic attack but whatever lol.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 11, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Thats like saying there is no evidence that magma can melt quicker and more efficiently than a flame. Katsuyus acid is pure concentrated acid while Meis is just mist with acidic properties, yet that was enough to melt/corrode Sasukes Ribcage Susanoo. If a flame melted Susanoo Ribcage would it be safe to assume magma could melt through it as well? If not 10x more efficiently?
> Inb4 Futon Komu no Jutsu and Zesshi Nensan aren't like a flame and magma: Yes it's almost exactly the same, Zesshi Nensan is super concentrated acid while Komu no Jutsu is the exact opposite, it's hardly concentrated at all, it's literally mixed in with mist. So flame vs magma.



There are few points we need to adress here.
First off, it is impossible to know the difference between the concentration of Mei's acid and Katsuyu's. So saying arbitrary stuff like "it is 2x or 5x effective" based on the difference between a flame and lava don't have much bearing and yes in that sense they are apples and oranges.

Second off, Mei's acid is in gas form, so once you are in its vicinity, you will be constantly exposed to it. And it is something that you can't block by using a shield or the arms whereas Katsuyu's acid can be blocked and some of its damage can be negated.
The only way Katsuyu's acid can achieve comparable exposure is if Susano'O is dipped in a lake full of it which is not happening given the amount Katsuyu can spit at once.



> I have Mei ranked higher than Katsuyu but I don't think that their acidic attacks are on par with one another. Manga & Databook make that kind of obvious. As for her lava attack it's just acid & lava, one corrodes and one melts. Acid should definitely be above lava on a destructive scale.



Databook doesn't make that obvious, those attacks were never compared to one another in the databook. The databook actually hints nothing about Katsuyu's acid being stronger than Mei's.
Katsuyu's acid is depicted as "being strong enough to melt rock."
Mei's acid is depicted as "being able to melt bodies and chakra defenses"




> Susanoo only adds layers. It's still the same chakra structure that was melting from acid


I disagree, A's horizontal chop broke through Sasuke's mini ribcage and yet wasn't able to do any damage to Madara's bigger ribcage.
Higher stage doesn't just add another layer. It makes the whole thing stronger.
Besides, even if it just added bigger and thicker layers, then it would still be enough to stop the acid as it just more layers for acid to get through.



> . I'm not saying Zesshi Nensan one-shots but the damage will be legitimate.


Again, I don't see that doing any legit damage to higher stages. Especially if it gets blocked with Yata no Kagami.



> Lava & Acid can't be compared here, not effectively anyway. Sasuke tanked lava and right after that he tried to tank acid mist but couldn't. Lava<Acid.


The difference is Mei's acid, like I mentioned above, is in gas form and Sasuke was being constantly exposed to it. It wasn't a definitive time frame, he was being corroded as long as he stood in that room.



> Well more like no evidence higher stages can tanks such an acidic attack but whatever lol.


Other than the fact that higher stages were able to tank things that lower stages couldn't ?
Ok, lol.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 12, 2016)

Here is my response @IzayaOrihara style, so long nobody is going to want to read or reply lol.

For Reference: 
*Spoiler*: _Futon Komu no Jutsu Fourth Databook_ 




Mei creates a cloud of mist which she releases from her mouth. This mist contains a powerful acidic property, capable of melting bodies, and chakra defences, such as . The technique has an inherent disadvantage in that its effects are indiscriminate, limiting its usage to areas that do not contain allies. In the event that the mist escapes the containment area, the user can adjust the  of the mist to safer levels.

Though the mist is corrosive to all around it, the user seems to be immune to it, as Mei used it in an enclosed area without endangering herself.



*Spoiler*: _Zesshi Nensan Second Databook_ 



NINJUTSU; Zesshi Nensan (Tongue and Teeth Acidic Paste)
User: Katsuyu
Offensive; Close, Medium, Long Ranges; Rank: none

Main text

A highly concentrated acidic paste is suddenly released from the mouth! The acid boasts such high density and concentration it dilutes even stone, vaporizing it! There are no setup moves to do before this jutsu's activation. Thanks to this one can easily strike, catching the enemy unawares, which has the advantage of denying them any opportunity to dodge.

Caption

-Thawing, dissolving and melting* into nothingness, the rain of strong acid causes everything to fade away.

Picture comment

-The acidic rain is spilled out all of a sudden, with a timing that won't even allow for anticipation! All things it touches will melt away, losing their shapes once and for all (tn: confusing sentence: I don't know if I got it 100% right).





Grimmjowsensei said:


> There are a few points we need to adress here.
> First off, it is impossible to know the difference between the concentration of Mei's acid and Katsuyu's.


If you mean that from like.. a mathematical standpoint then yea there is no way to know. If we're going by Databook + Manga Katsuyus acid has a better chance of being more "concentrated" since it immediately starts to corrode what it touches and it's also in a paste form whereas Meis is literally mist.





> So saying arbitrary stuff like "it is 2x or 5x effective" based on the difference between a flame and lava don't have much bearing and yes in that sense they are apples and oranges.


Mist & Paste vs Flame & Magma? Apples and Oranges? I don't think so. I wasn't being literal when I said x10 more effective.





> Second off, Mei's acid is in gas form, so once you are in its vicinity, you will be constantly exposed to it and it is something that you can't block by using a shield or the arms whereas Katsuyu's acid can be blocked and some of its damage can be negated.


 Agreed, I never said anything about that. 





> The only way Katsuyu's acid can achieve comparable exposure is if Susano'O is dipped in a lake full of it which is not happening given the amount Katsuyu can spit at once.


If the aim were to completely melt Susanoo like Mei than yea that's the only way to achieve those results however that isn't/shouldn't be Tsunades/Katsuyus goal when using Zesshi Nensan. (Completely melting an entire Susanoo along with the user.) Zesshi Nensan should corrode Susanoo in this fashion if it lands. Perhaps not as quickly but very similarly.Susanoo takes damage and once it does Tsunade can come in to clean up the mess.





> Databook doesn't make that obvious, those attacks were never compared to one another in the databook. The databook actually hints nothing about Katsuyu's acid being stronger than Mei's. Katsuyu's acid is depicted as "being strong enough to melt rock."


dont water it down so much. "The acid boasts such high density and concentration it dilutes even stone, vaporizing it!" Dilute, not melt. Vaporize, not melt.





> Mei's acid is depicted as "being able to melt bodies and chakra defenses"


Yea, acidic properties have that ability. Zesshi Nensan is acid, if anything it's even stronger than Meis acid.





> I disagree, A's horizontal chop broke through Sasuke's mini ribcage and yet wasn't able to do any damage to Madara's bigger ribcage.


When it comes to physical attacks it's different. Acid is acid and Susanoos chakra is Susanoos chakra. Onoki Jinton could pierce through rib-cage because it's properties allow it to bypass that chakra defense even if they add layers it's the same chakra and it's still susceptible to that type of attack. Adding layers _might _protect the user but the Susanoo will still take legitimate damage from that type of attack. With physical attacks like a punch or kick, adding layers makes sense for defense because that kick or punch isn't quipped with properties that naturally go through that defense it's all reliant on strength.





> Higher stage doesn't just add another layer. It makes the whole thing stronger.


Agreed, sort of.





> Besides, even if it just added bigger and thicker layers, then it would still be enough to stop the acid as it just more layers for acid to get through.


Agreed, enough to stop acid but it would sustain enough damage to give Tsunade an opening.





> Again, I don't see that doing any legit damage to higher stages. Especially if it gets blocked with Yata no Kagami.


If Yata is being focused on blocking Katsuyus acid attacks Tsunade has a serious opening right there.





> The difference is Mei's acid, like I mentioned above, is in gas form and Sasuke was being constantly exposed to it. It wasn't a definitive time frame, he was being corroded as long as he stood in that room.


Yep, whereas Katsuyus acid lands and corrodes immediately.





> Other than the fact that higher stages were able to tank things that lower stages couldn't ? Ok, lol.


Thats only with physical attacks. 

*To Sum Up:*
1. Katsuyus Zesshi Nensan is stronger than Meis Futon Komu no Jutsu for two reasons. First off, Zesshi Nensan is a lot more dense and concentrated than Meis acid mist. The Databook wouldn't shut up about how dense & concentrated Katsuyus acid is while Futon Komu no Jutsu has no hype for an acid that is concentrated or dense. It basically just explains to you what happened in the manga when Mei used it against Sasuke. Second, Zesshi Nensan corrodes its target immediately whereas Meis Futon Komu no Jutsu took a few panels until it started to effect Sasuke and his Susnaoo. The damage Susanoo took from the acid was almost instant but it wasn't the same as Zesshi Nensan. 

2. Zesshi Nensan isn't going to kill Itachi. Tsunade will. At its best Zesshi Nensan is going to be used to create an opening for Tsunade. Similar to which is enough for Tsunade to deliver a k.o to Itachi considering: At its least Zesshi Nensan is going to force Itachi into using Susanoo and as we all know:3. Tsunade wins this with High Difficulty. 
-I'm probably not making any edits so if there are any typos or problems with quoting I apologize. (though I doubt I missed anything.)

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 12, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If you mean that from like.. a mathematical standpoint then yea there is no way to know. If we're going by Databook + Manga Katsuyus acid has a better chance of being more "concentrated" since it immediately starts to corrode what it touches and it's also in a paste form whereas Meis is literally mist.
> *Spoiler*: _Zesshi Nensan_



If the acid Mei uses is stronger, then it doesn't matter in which form it is in. I believe there are different types of acids, and combine that with chakra magic and it is not as simple as picking the liquid over gas.

Mei's acid also immediately started corroding Sasuke once it went past Susano'O.

We know for a fact that Shinobi are more durable than rocks(in before Obito), so there is no indication that Katsuyu's acid can instatly corrode a shinobi like he did to that rock.
Going through their feats, it is impossible to estimate how stronger Katsuyu's acid is compared to Mei's, if stronger at all.
And unless it is significantly stronger, like maybe 5-10x(which I highly doubt it) it isn't going to make much difference either.




> If the aim were to completely melt Susanoo like Mei than yea that's the only way to achieve those results however that isn't/shouldn't be Tsunades/Katsuyus goal when using Zesshi Nensan. (Completely melting an entire Susanoo along with the user.) Zesshi Nensan should corrode Susanoo in this fashion if it lands. Perhaps not as quickly but very similarly.Susanoo takes damage and once it does Tsunade can come in to clean up the mess.



Corrosion doesn't happen instantly. Its not like a burst of damage done instantly like Danzo's fuuton, I also am not going to grant Danzo's feats to Katsuyu's acid, I don't think it is as near as powerful.

Also the cleaning up the mess isn't going to happen, even if Somewhat Katsuyu manages to tag Susano'O from behind and inflict similar damage, because the reason why Danzo was able to approach Susano'O was because Susano'O was immobilized by the suction of Danzo's summon.
Tsunade can't capitalize on such an openning even if we generously assume that Katsuyu can somewhat inflict that amount of damage.



> dont water it down so much. "The acid boasts such high density and concentration it dilutes even stone, vaporizing it!" Dilute, not melt. Vaporize, not melt.Yea, acidic properties have that ability. Zesshi Nensan is acid, if anything it's even stronger than Meis acid.



Wording is irrelevant here. I don't see how Katsuyu's acid is depicted stronger than Mei's going by the databook description.



> When it comes to physical attacks it's different.
> Acid is acid and Susanoos chakra is Susanoos chakra. Onoki Jinton could pierce through rib-cage because it's properties allow it to bypass that chakra defense even if they add layers it's the same chakra and it's still susceptible to that type of attack. Adding layers _might _protect the user but the Susanoo will still take legitimate damage from that type of attack.



It is actually very similar. It completely depends on the volume/amount of the said attack.
For example if Onoki uses X amount of jinton that can barely breach Ribcage, then the same amount obviously won't inflict the same amount of damage on a higher stage. He would need to up the power or the size of the jinton. In short he needs more than X amount.
Same applies to acid.



> With physical attacks like a punch or kick, adding layers makes sense for defense because that kick or punch isn't quipped with properties that naturally go through that defense it's all reliant on strength



So you are saying that combination of these attacks wouldn't put a dent on the mini ribcage as well ?


Temari and Darui's attacks  are chakra based attacks.



> .Agreed, enough to stop acid but it would sustain enough damage to give Tsunade an opening.If Yata is being focused on blocking Katsuyus acid attacks Tsunade has a serious opening right there.


You have to elaborate on that serious opening. Becase we know for a fact that regardless of what kind of opening Tsunade gets, she can't breach a higher stage of Susano'O and Itachi can multi task pretty rapidly, as we have seen block a charge from Yamata and instantly decapitate several heads with one swipe a panel later.



> Yep, whereas Katsuyus acid lands and corrodes immediately.



Mei's acid also starts to corrode immediately as soon as it makes contact. That wasn't my point.



> Thats only with physical attacks.


Its the same thing.
If X amount of power is required to destroy Y, then something greater than Y will require more amounts of power. Thats just common sense.




> *To Sum Up:*
> 1. Katsuyus Zesshi Nensan is stronger than Meis Futon Komu no Jutsu for two reasons. First off, Zesshi Nensan is a lot more dense and concentrated than Meis acid mist. The Databook wouldn't shut up about how dense & concentrated Katsuyus acid is while Futon Komu no Jutsu has no hype for an acid that is concentrated or dense. It basically just explains to you what happened in the manga when Mei used it against Sasuke. Second, Zesshi Nensan corrodes its target immediately whereas Meis Futon Komu no Jutsu took a few panels until it started to effect Sasuke and his Susnaoo. The damage Susanoo took from the acid was almost instant but it wasn't the same as Zesshi Nensan.
> 
> 2. Zesshi Nensan isn't going to kill Itachi. Tsunade will. At its best Zesshi Nensan is going to be used to create an opening for Tsunade. Similar to which is enough for Tsunade to deliver a k.o to Itachi considering: At its least Zesshi Nensan is going to force Itachi into using Susanoo and as we all know:3. Tsunade wins this with High Difficulty.
> -I'm probably not making any edits so if there are any typos or problems with quoting I apologize. (though I doubt I missed anything.)



It is highly debatable whether Katsuyu's acid is stronger or not. Even if it is stronger, it is impossible to know how much stronger and unless it is like fuckloads stronger it isn't going to accomplish much here.

Tsunade is not KO'ing Itachi through V2 or above forms of Susano'O, unless Katsuyu's acid corrodes most of the point of impact and Itachi somewhat freezes and doesn't block an incoming hit from Tsunade or doesn't cockblock her attempt with a jutsu or a barrage of projectiles first.

Some other things to consider, Tsunade can't punch when the acid is on Susano'O because she will lose a limb in the process(if the acid is as strong as you believe and it can corrode Susano'O rapidly) and her punch/kick/whatever won't have much effect.

Also Itachi can block the acid with his shield, or block a follow up from Tsunade. Dispatch Katsuyu with genjutsu or instantly KO Tsunade with Tsukiyomi, bunshin feint her, dance around her etc.

This is not a matter of whether Katsuyu's acid can melt Susano'O or not(which I don't believe it can to the point where it makes a significant difference), there are alot of things on Tsunade's plate to deal with.

Even if we assumed that Katsuyu could somewhat land that acid, which manda easily dodged, on Susano'O and corrode it to nothing, it still wouldn't solve all of Tsunade's problems.
But again, like I said, based on feats nothing suggests that Katsuyu can accomplish that.

So yeah, Itachi wins this without much trouble.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If the acid Mei uses is stronger, then it doesn't matter in which form it is in. I believe there are different types of acids, and combine that with chakra magic and it is not as simple as picking the liquid over gas. Mei's acid also immediately started corroding Sasuke once it went past Susano'O. We know for a fact that Shinobi are more durable than rocks(in before Obito), so there is no indication that Katsuyu's acid can instatly corrode a shinobi like he did to that rock. Going through their feats, it is impossible to estimate how stronger Katsuyu's acid is compared to Mei's, if stronger at all.
> And unless it is significantly stronger, like maybe 5-10x(which I highly doubt it) it isn't going to make much difference either. Corrosion doesn't happen instantly. Its not like a burst of damage done instantly like Danzo's fuuton, I also am not going to grant Danzo's feats to Katsuyu's acid, I don't think it is as near as powerful. Also the cleaning up the mess isn't going to happen, even if Somewhat Katsuyu manages to tag Susano'O from behind and inflict similar damage, because the reason why Danzo was able to approach Susano'O was because Susano'O was immobilized by the suction of Danzo's summon.
> Tsunade can't capitalize on such an openning even if we generously assume that Katsuyu can somewhat inflict that amount of damage. Wording is irrelevant here. I don't see how Katsuyu's acid is depicted stronger than Mei's going by the databook description. It is actually very similar. It completely depends on the volume/amount of the said attack. For example if Onoki uses X amount of jinton that can barely breach Ribcage, then the same amount obviously won't inflict the same amount of damage on a higher stage. He would need to up the power or the size of the jinton. In short he needs more than X amount.
> Same applies to acid. So you are saying that combination of these attacks wouldn't put a dent on the mini ribcage as well ?
> ...


Okay I can get on board with Zesshi Nensan not being comparable to Futon Komu no Jutsu & even on board with Susanoo receiving insignificant damage. I was already iffy on the subject but I needed someone else to clarify my doubts. Though I do enjoy this debate it's come to an end. Although I do stand by Tsunade taking this win and I also stand by Zesshi Nensan _forcing_ Itachi into using Susanoo which as we all know:  as for your comments on Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi I refer you to @Mithos @Godaime Tsunade or @Isaiah13000 posts on this thread.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 12, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Okay I can get on board with Zesshi Nensan not being comparable to Futon Komu no Jutsu & even on board with Susanoo receiving insignificant damage. I was already iffy on the subject but I needed someone else to clarify my doubts. Though I do enjoy this debate it's come to an end. Although I do stand by Tsunade taking this win and I also stand by Zesshi Nensan _forcing_ Itachi into using Susanoo



Zesshi Nensan can force Itachi into using Susano'O if it catches Itachi off guard, like if Katsuyu shoots when Itachi is in the mid air or something, because I have problems imagining Itachi not being able to dodge something Manda dodged with utter ease.

And I also don't see how forcing Itachi to use Susano'O accomplishes here, as it gives Itachi very high level offensive and defensive capabilities. Its not like using Susano'O is a hindrance for him.




> which as we all know:



Thats when Sasuke was exhausted, hurt and was just learning how to use his MS.
I wouldn't compare him to a veteran like Itachi, who was able to use and maintain the higest stages of Susano'O for a good couple of minutes when he was in a much much worse condition than Sasuke.

So you have Sasuke in one hand, complaining about using the weakest version of Susano'O, and on the other you have Itachi using the highest stage in a worse condition.



> as for your comments on Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi I refer you to @Mithos @Godaime Tsunade or @Isaiah13000 posts on this thread.



I probably already have, I have yet to see any substantial argument against genjutsu, particularly Tsukiyomi, Itachi massive speed advantage coupled with his wits and bunshin game.

Itachi isn't just more powerful than Tsunade, he is more versatile, smarter and much more effective as a fighter.


----------



## Kai (Aug 12, 2016)

Tsunade's abilities are hopeless in circumventing the Yata's Mirror. Itachi can shield all of her physical moves and everything she tries.

Susanoo's armor casually withstands Katsuyu's Zesshi Nensan. Itachi doesn't need to overly exert himself; Genjutsu and Susanoo will exhaust Tsunade while also preserving his chakras and longevity.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Zesshi Nensan can force Itachi into using Susano'O if it catches Itachi off guard, like if Katsuyu shoots when Itachi is in the mid air or something, because I have problems imagining Itachi not being able to dodge something Manda dodged with utter ease.


 Location


> And I also don't see what forcing Itachi to use Susano'O accomplishes here, as it gives Itachi very high level offensive and defensive capabilities. Its not like using Susano'O is a hindrance for him.


Every time we see MS use Susanoo it's taxing af. It isn't a "hinderance" because in exchange he's going to have "high level offensive and defensive capabilities" however it's an advantage for Tsunade because Itachi will be forced to use up a vast amount of chakra while using Susanoo to protect himself and attack.





> Thats when Sasuke was exhausted, hurt and was just learning how to use his MS. I wouldn't compare him to a veteran like Itachi, who was able to use and maintain the higest stages of Susano'O for a good couple of minutes when he was in a much much worse condition than Sasuke.


What makes you think he was in "much much worse condition than Sasuke" because all I saw in his fight with Sasuke was him getting injured from a Shuriken in the leg and burning his hand in a fire. Everything else was because of his own abilities. He used Tsukuyomi which drained him and hurt him. He used Amaterasu twice and that also drained and hurt him. Inbetween all of this he was using clones and genjutsu which is hardly taxing. Sasuke with a fresh MS was fainting from using it and at the FKS he was using it like a pro, better than Itachi ever did unless you want to consider him using V4 for a minute better than Sasuke using Ribcage to tank multiple attacks and let's not forget while using Susanoo he also used Amaterasu/Enton multiple times and even unveiled his V2 while exhausted as fuck. Inbetween all of that he was using Chidori and Sharingan Genjutsu getting CQC with his opponents. Sasuke may not have had his V4 but he didn't injure himself with his techniques and he used Susanoo & his other MS techniques like a "veteran"





> So you have Sasuke in one hand, complaining about using the weakest version of Susano'O, and on the other you have Itachi using the highest stage in a worse condition.


You have Sasuke using it in an arguably worse condition than Itachi and he's thinking Itachi must have been suffering even worse than "every cell in my body aches"

The scan I posted basically says that Itachi is in pain when using Susanoo and you said Nawh fuck that Sasuke was exhausted and Itachi uses his perfected Susanoo like a veteran because after using it he basically died from chakra exhaustion. I probably shouldn't even get started on how fucking blind that guy is. 





> I probably already have, I have yet to see any substantial argument against genjutsu, particularly Tsukiyomi, Itachi massive speed advantage coupled with his wits and bunshin game. Itachi isn't just more powerful than Tsunade, he is more versatile, smarter and much more effective as a fighter.


 dude it's not my job to find and feed you information. If you want your answers read their posts and respond to them. @Isaiah13000 @Mithos @Godaime Tsunade all have excellent posts on this thread concerning Genjutsu / Tsukuyomi / Versatility and whatnot.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2016)

And the joke continues 

Itachi was actually sick before fighting sasuke so it's hilarious to assume he wasn't in a worse condition than sasuke when sasuke said he was hurting from MS use

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 13, 2016)

Kai said:


> Tsunade's abilities are hopeless in circumventing the Yata's Mirror. Itachi can shield all of her physical moves and everything she tries.
> 
> Susanoo's armor casually withstands Katsuyu's Zesshi Nensan. Itachi doesn't need to overly exert himself; Genjutsu and Susanoo will exhaust Tsunade while also preserving his chakras and longevity.



Susano'o will destroy his chakra reserves, not preserve them. Especially if he's using the Yata Mirror, which seems to require an iron clad Susano'o to form. He blocks her attacks for quite a while if he's healthy, but that's all he can do, and then he exhausts himself. He won't be able to exhaust Tsunade because her Byakugou chakras make her stamina bijuu-level.

Genjutsu turns into fruitless attempts so long as Katsuyu is on the field.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 13, 2016)

@Grimmjowsensei
I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
Your point about the comparison of their disadvantages is valid because while arguably their injuries/exhaustion point were about the same (or as you say Itachis was greater) Itachi was using a more aggressive form of Susanoo than Sasuke therefore expending a larger amount chakra so I concede to your argument that the context of that quote is different than I implied. However the fact that  Itachi would be forced to use V4 which you just argued is way more exhausting than Sasukes would put him at a decent disadvantage.


Icegaze said:


> And the joke continues
> 
> Itachi was actually sick before fighting sasuke so it's hilarious to assume he wasn't in a worse condition than sasuke when sasuke said he was hurting from MS use


Okay, time for the punchline: To assume that Tsunade, the same chick that literally blitzed Madaras legged Susanoo can't handle Itachis exhaustive, temporary V4 Susanoo is ... well come on:

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2016)

Odd cuz tskuyomi has been stated to be too fast for even partner method to work 


Someone is trolling

Reactions: Dislike 2


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Odd cuz tskuyomi has been stated to be too fast for even partner method to work
> Someone is trolling


She heals the effects just like she did in the manga. Twice.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2016)

Lol
Healed it on others after they had been knocked out for several days 

not the same as healing yourself 

we have already seen genjutsu causes the victim to loose control of their chakra even when they aren't knocked out 

Like C was

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol Healed it on others after they had been knocked out for several days not the same as healing yourself we have already seen genjutsu causes the victim to loose control of their chakra even when they aren't knocked out
> Like C was


@Mithos clears this up pretty nicely.


Mithos said:


> Since the effects were so easily and quickly healed, I think we can assume she could heal its full effects too - provided the target she was healing survived.
> 
> Any physical trauma she receives from Tsukuyomi should be automatically countered by Byakugou, which is passive and does not require Tsunade's concentration to heal. I suppose using genjutsu to force her to turn off Byakugou could work, but that might not work if Katsuyu is on the field: Katsuyu and Tsunade seem to share a connection that allows them to share chakra, so Katsuyu may be able to remotely snap her out of it, or by physically injecting chakra into Tsunade with a clone. Katsuyu isn't going to stand there and let Itachi stare into Tsunade's eyes and force her to dispel her technique, and then stand there still while he moves to finish her off.
> 
> ...





Mithos said:


> I'm aware of the differences. But shosen heals _physical_ wounds, while Byakugou regenerates. That is why standard medical ninjutsu such as shosen cannot heal a vital organ that is blown to bits, but such damage is no problem for Byakugou.
> 
> 
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 13, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
> Your point about the comparison of their disadvantages is valid because while arguably their injuries/exhaustion point were about the same (or as you say Itachis was greater) Itachi was using a more aggressive form of Susanoo than Sasuke therefore expending a larger amount chakra so I concede to your argument that the context of that quote is different than I implied. However the fact that  Itachi would be forced to use V4 which you just argued is way more exhausting than Sasukes would put him at a decent disadvantage.



I wasn't only talking about their exhaustion levels, which were comparable, with Itachi being more exhausted because he was in a longer fight and he used more stuff.
But one thing you deliberately ignored is that Itachi was in his deathbed when he fought Sasuke. He wasn't just a wounded and exhausted fighter, he was also dying from a terminal illness.
And he was able to use and maintain a higher stage of Susano'O than the one Sasuke used for a longer duration.

So again, you can't compare Sasuke's inability to Itachi's, because at that point their skills were worlds apart.

It would be similar to comparing KCM Naruto's initial usages of his shunshin against A, to when he was able to master and fully utilize that speed.  In other words, a fallacy.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> She heals the effects just like she did in the manga. Twice.



Thats like saying a doctor can remove a tumour from his own brain.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Susano'o will destroy his chakra reserves, not preserve them. Especially if he's using the Yata Mirror, which seems to require an iron clad Susano'o to form. He blocks her attacks for quite a while if he's healthy, but that's all he can do, and then he exhausts himself. He won't be able to exhaust Tsunade because her Byakugou chakras make her stamina bijuu-level.
> 
> Genjutsu turns into fruitless attempts so long as Katsuyu is on the field.



Shield of Yata can be used @ stage 3, not that it is a vital here, V2 can casually deal with anything Tsunade can put on the table.

Most of what Tsunade can offer can be dealt with sharingan precognition, basic ninjutsu and bunshins.
Tsunade has literally no chance of outlasting Itachi, and she gets dismantaled before it even comes to that.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 13, 2016)

I mean I wrote a long ass post addressing all those things. So you can quote that if you want to discuss this.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 13, 2016)

I do think Susano'o can really harm her. THe thing easily cut Nagato's arms who basically took Bee's direct Lariat without any kind of visible damage. Even though arms and chest is not the same thing, that should say a lot about Nagato's durability and harming/cutting Tsunade's arms the same way is an exceptional way of wasting Byakugo's chakra, as Tsunade won't regen an arm in the blink of an eye and allow Itachi for more damage.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 13, 2016)

Totsuka blade is restricted @LostSelf


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *I wasn't only talking about their exhaustion levels*, *which were comparable, with Itachi being more exhausted because he was in a longer fight and he used more stuff. **But one thing you deliberately ignored is that Itachi was in his deathbed when he fought Sasuke.* *He wasn't just a wounded and exhausted fighter, he was also dying from a terminal illness. **And he was able to use and maintain a higher stage of Susano'O than the one Sasuke used for a longer duration.*


*Yes you were. Your point was that Sasuke said this in an exhausted state and was just learning how to use MS therefore we shouldn't compare him to someone like Itachi who managed V4 in a much worse state than Sasuke. Then I agreed with you. He hardly "used more stuff". He used Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu, inbetween all of that he only used Sharingan Genjutsu and Bunshin which is hardly taxing. Then he pulled out his Susanoo to tank Kirin & seal Orochimaru which ended up killing him completely. Sasuke on the other hand was using Amaterasu+Enton multiple times all while maintaining his Susanoo, inbetween all that he was using Sharingan Genjutsu & Chidori. To add on top of that, Sasuke was actually getting injured left and right, he didn't hurt himself the way Itachi did. It wasn't ignored. I was referring to his sickness when I said they were in injured/exhausted states. Itachis injury & exhaustion are directly linked to his sickness whereas Sasuke is actually injured and just as exhausted. Case in point being Itachi drained himself and was injured from his sickness while Sasuke drained himself and actually got injured. Itachis only injury in his fight with Sasuke was a Shuriken in the leg & a little burn on his hand. Sasuke was hit with multiple attacks from Ay then an attack from Gaara and others which caused him to unveil V2. After that Sasuke was attacked by Meis lava and her acid which was going to kill him had it not been for Zetsus intervention. A longer duration? He barley kept it up for a minute. Sasuke was using Susanoo for his entire fight. I would love to see your response to: 






			Itachi was taking meds so it's not as if his sickness really got in the way of that fight. If anything those meds made him stronger than ever! 

Click to expand...

*I'm very curious as to what your response would be. 





> Thats like saying a doctor can remove a tumour from his own brain.


No it's like saying that toads could talk or that it's logical Orochimaru can pull himself together with snakes after being cut in half. Saying Tsunade healing Tsukuyomi is like a doctor healing their own tumor is like saying Tsunade using Byakugo/SozoSaisei doesn't exist or that Tsukuyomi is equivalent to a tumor in which case Tsunade neg difs that shit since Sozo Saisei by technicalities would create tumors or at least significantly increase the likelihood of her growing a tumor considering it develops when cells in the body divide and grow at an excessive rate and iirc we don't see her with tumors therefore we can assume she has a sure fire method of healing or avoiding tumors.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 14, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Totsuka blade is restricted @LostSelf



Oh, i meant the karate chop he did on Nagato when he saved Naruto and Bee.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 14, 2016)

I don't think debating durability between Madara's Susano'o and Itachi's Susano'o really matters here. Let's say they are equal, that means Tsunade's punchs/kicks are at least effective enough against V2-Susano'o, that Itachi has to at least use V3 Susano'o. This brings us to the difference between Madara and Itachi that actually is important; Itachi has nowhere near the stamina of Madara and does not have EMS, so maintain V3-Susano'o as a constant defense against Tsunade's blows will quickly become extremely taxing for him; and so Tsunade's strength is enough to pressure Itachi. Whether that's because Itachi will suffer from the drawbacks of maintaining V3 or because he will be forced to take the risk of deactivating V3 throughout the match, Tsunade strength will make him vulnerable one way or another. And this is w/o even getting into the added offense of Tsunade other Jutsu and Katsuya; so Tsunade's offensive might is certainly good enough to deal with Itachi.

The main question is can she defend herself against Itachi. Itachi's basic arsenal and Susano'o are deadly, but the only way he can put Tsunade down for good is beheading her before Katsuya is summoned (as Katsuya can stitch Tsunade back together); considering even 5 Susano'o wielding Madara clones failed to accomplish this, I think it's pretty unlikely that Itachi is going to have greater success. Additionally even when Madara attempted to wipe out the Gokage, he still didn't manage to put Tsunade down for good as he clearly underestimated her healing factor even then, thinking Bisecting her was enough, yet she could still heal herself w/ Katsuya. This makes it even more unlikely to me that Itachi will go so far as to ensure Tsunade is beheaded, and if he does get an opening do land a major blow on Tsunade is likely to also misjudge the full extent of her healing factor, allowing her to escape defeat.

This brings us to Tsukuyomi. I think if Tsukuyomi works Itachi could win this match, but we saw Tsunade heal the effects of Tsukuyomi w/ her basic healing palm technique. Granted if Tsunade eats a Tsukuyomi she likely won't be able to use healing palm, but she has Byakugo-Gensis-Rebirth, which is not only a vastly more potent medical ninjutsu, but it also works automatically once invoked, so I think there is a very good chance (unless Itachi lands Tsukuyomi before she envokes Byakugo, which is unlikely because Tsunade seems to only like engaging the enemy directly once she's activated Byakugo), that Byakugo will heal Tsunade from the effects of Tsukuyomi and allow her to continue battling Itachi; it might even give her opening if Itachi underestimates her healing factor here.

All and all while Itachi will still put up a good fight and I could see him possibly winning depending on how Tsukuyomi stacks up against Byakugo-Gensis-Rebirth, I don't think his odds are very good here. I think the restrictions here are too heavy, Amaterasu no so much as Kishi tends to troll it, but the loss of Totsuka and Izanami are hugely impactful on Itachi's overall level, and in my mind what really sets Itachi apart from Shinobi of Tsunade's "level".

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 14, 2016)

I find it very amusing to see people saying Tsunade with her close contact abilities is going to pressure Itachi. She has neither speed nor extraordinary taijutsu style or sm sensing, all of which Itachi has dealt with with ease, without Susano. Itachi dodged killer Bee's unpredictable kenjutsu that is both FASTER and more UNPREDICTABLE than Tsunade. Itachi can, and Will dodge Tsunade with ease. Without Susano too, in fact. He will only need it to land the finishing blow.

Secondly, people saying that Itachi Will need V3 and above to defend against Tsunade is absolutely foolish and hypocritical. Did you genuinely forget that Tsunade alone never managed to cause significant damage? They needed the combined effort of 5 kages to even have a chance against V2. Tsunade alone is never going to accomplish what the  5 Kage together took to accomplish.


Lastly.......Did we all forget that Itachi is an expert clone feints? Something he has done to Sharingan users on multiple occasions, Perfect SM user, and a Jinjuriki?

We have seen Tsunade falling to Madara's clone feints multiple times during their battle. It's absolutely not a stretch to say that Itachi can feint her and land a finishing blow, instead of playing around like Madara did. The fact is, unlike Madara, Itachi actually aims to finish his opponents as quickly as possible without playing around. We saw that during the 2 occasions where Itachi was serious and the fight lasted less than a chapter since he pulled out his strongest tech right off the bat, without underestimating his opponents. I find it extremely hilarious that some people believe that Itachi Will underestimate Tsunade and be punished for it as a result. It is in fact the other way around, where Tsunade will underestimate Itachi and be punished for it. Just look at how many times Tsunade let her guard down and underestimated Uchiha Madara of all people, believing she landed a hit and defeated him.


Let's not be delusional here people.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Turrin (Aug 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I find it very amusing to see people saying Tsunade with her close contact abilities is going to pressure Itachi. She has neither speed nor extraordinary taijutsu style or sm sensing, all of which Itachi has dealt with with ease, without Susano. Itachi dodged killer Bee's unpredictable kenjutsu that is both FASTER and more UNPREDICTABLE than Tsunade. Itachi can, and Will dodge Tsunade with ease.


First off Itachi didn't dodge any of those enemies, he blocked or deflected their attacks. That's a no go against Tsunade.

Secondly if Tsunade is capable of landing a blow on one of Madara's EMS/Susano'o-Wielding clones, 1v5, there is no way in hell anyone should believe Itachi can easily aim dodge all of her attacks; fuck even the real Madara couldn't do that ending up relying on Susano'o to defend or Mokubushin Feint on several occasions.

Speed is ridiculously overrated in the NBD, in reality the author doesn't put a huge stock into it unless the character is a ridiculous speed demon, even then we've seen characters like B react to Minato, tons of characters go up against KCM-Naruto who outsped MAX-Speed Ei, and so on...



> Secondly, people saying that Itachi Will need V3 and above to defend against Tsunade is absolutely foolish and hypocritical. Did you genuinely forget that Tsunade alone never managed to cause significant damage? They needed the combined effort of 5 kages to even have a chance against V2. Tsunade alone is never going to accomplish what the 5 Kage together took to accomplish.


Tsunade landed a single kicked and demolished Madara's V2 Susano'o sending Madara flying out of it and crashing into a near by boulder:
here

That's not a reliable defense against Tsunade's blows.



> Lastly.......Did we all forget that Itachi is an expert clone feints? Something he has done to Sharingan users on multiple occasions


No one forgot it's just not a consistent defense. It's something he usual can employ once or twice a match. He can't clone feint through everyone of Tsunade's punches and kicks, and even if somehow he magically could he'd tire himself out and loose the match anyway, as Tsunade wins an attrition war hands down.



> and land a finishing blow, instead of playing around like Madara did. The fact is, unlike Madara, Itachi actually aims to finish his opponents as quickly as possible without playing around. We saw that during the 2 occasions where Itachi was serious and the fight lasted less than a chapter since he pulled out his strongest tech right off the bat, without underestimating his opponents. I find it extremely hilarious that some people believe that Itachi Will underestimate Tsunade and be punished for it as a result. It is in fact the other way around, where Tsunade will underestimate Itachi and be punished for it. Just look at how many times Tsunade let her guard down and underestimated Uchiha Madara of all people, believing she landed a hit and defeated him.


How does Tsunade underestimating Madara have anything to do with someone underestimating Tsunade. I believe Itachi is likely to underestimate Tsunade's Byakugo healing factor because she employees a Jutsu that she invented and therefore no prior precedence for exists in the entire narutoverse and Madara someone who has VASTLY more combat experience, perception capabilities, and knowledge than Itachi underestimated it, allowing Tsunade to escape death multiple times.

And Itachi being so cautious that he is immune to being caught off guard by someones defenses is bullshit too, as literally that exact thing happened to him in the manga against both Nagato and Kabuto. Against Nagato he hit him w/ Amaterasu and than was caught of guard when Nagato came back. He was also caught off guard when Kabuto escaped their Susano'o hold w/ Oral Rebirth.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 14, 2016)

@Sapherosth

I don't really remember so I might be wrong but I don't think Tsunade has ever shut her Byakugo off. I've seen it run out but has it ever been "turned off". You say Itachi uses Genjutsu to make her turn it off but is that really possible? Bring scans please.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2016)

Could have sworn before tsunade kick A weighted A chopped iT from the back 
I had no idea solid structures retained their durability when hit from 1 side

Think of a car smashed at the back then at the front 

Would be quite different to only hitting it from the front 

I also noticed Madara was unharmed 

Perhaps not the best example to use to hype tsunade 

When she really never did breach susanoo on her own in 1 attempt

Not sure what all her feats there have to do with fighting V3 susanoo though or V4

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 15, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Sapherosth
> 
> I don't really remember so I might be wrong but I don't think Tsunade has ever shut her Byakugo off. I've seen it run out but has it ever been "turned off". You say Itachi uses Genjutsu to make her turn it off but is that really possible? Bring scans please.




She used it during the 3 way deadlock battle. I doubt she exhausted her Byakugo back then, so it can be turned off.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> She used it during the 3 way deadlock battle. I doubt she exhausted her Byakugo back then, so it can be turned off.


Well she did summon a large portion of Katsuyu and also healed from Orochimarus onslaught. She also beat the shit out of Orochimaru & stabbed Manda in the face. Not to mention after using it:If she didn't exhaust herself completely she wouldn't have reverted to an old lady right?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 17, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> *Yes you were. *


*No I wasn't.*

*



			Your point was that Sasuke said this in an exhausted state and was just learning how to use MS therefore we shouldn't compare him to someone like Itachi who managed V4 in a much worse state than Sasuke. Then I agreed with you.
		
Click to expand...

 *
*My point was that Itachi was in a worse state *when he pulled out and maintained Susano'O.
State covers everything including his exhaustion, wounds and his terminal illness. Terminal illness being the big part of it obviously.



> *He hardly "used more stuff". He used Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu, inbetween all of that he only used Sharingan Genjutsu and Bunshin which is hardly taxing. Then he pulled out his Susanoo to tank Kirin & seal Orochimaru which ended up killing him completely. Sasuke on the other hand was using Amaterasu+Enton multiple times all while maintaining his Susanoo, inbetween all that he was using Sharingan Genjutsu & Chidori. To add on top of that, Sasuke was actually getting injured left and right, he didn't hurt himself the way Itachi did.*


Thats actually not true.
Sasuke used Amaterasu only once, while Itachi used it twice. Itachi also used Tsukiyomi. Thats comparable MS usage, and likely more demanding. You also forgot that he used Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu just before he died.

You are right about enton but outside one Amaterasu and a couple of enton, Sasuke hasn't used much. He used one chidori on A, and sharingan genjutsu on C.

Itachi used sharingan genjutsu, MS genjutsu, 2 katons and a karasubunshin outside MS.
As for getting wounded, Sasuke got hit by A's chop, thats the only damage he sustained.
Itachi had a huge gashing wound on his leg because of the shuriken, and he absorbed some damage from Kirin as evident looking his cloak was gone and he was faceplanted on the floor.
So again, as far as wounds go, they were more or less comparable, bar Itachi's terminal illness. Add that in, and Itachi was in a much worse state.

* 



			It wasn't ignored. I was referring to his sickness when I said they were in injured/exhausted states. Itachis injury & exhaustion are directly linked to his sickness
		
Click to expand...


Itachi's sickness has nothing to do with his injuries and exhaustion. 
Itachi was in his deathbed, as Tobi said his illness was killing him and he used every medicine he could find just so he could keep himself alive. *
*Do a research on terminal illnesses and people in their deathbed to grasp the concept of fighting in that state.*



> *whereas Sasuke is actually injured and just as exhausted. Case in point being Itachi drained himself and was injured from his sickness while Sasuke drained himself and actually got injured.
> Itachis only injury in his fight with Sasuke was a Shuriken in the leg & a little burn on his hand.
> Sasuke was hit with multiple attacks from Ay then an attack from Gaara and others which caused him to unveil V2. *


*Sasuke was only hit once. *



> * A longer duration? He barley kept it up for a minute. Sasuke was using Susanoo for his entire fight*


Sasuke used ribcage for 30-40 seconds at most against A and Gaara. Probably less than that. Then he maintained V2 for maybe 10-15 seconds. And the ribcage against Mei for maybe 10-15 seconds.




> * . I would love to see your response to:*



Unsubstantiated  absolute horseshit.



> No it's like saying that toads could talk or that it's logical Orochimaru can pull himself together with snakes after being cut in half. Saying Tsunade healing Tsukuyomi is like a doctor healing their own tumor is like saying Tsunade using Byakugo/SozoSaisei doesn't exist or that Tsukuyomi is equivalent to a tumor in which case Tsunade neg difs that shit since Sozo Saisei by technicalities would create tumors or at least significantly increase the likelihood of her growing a tumor considering it develops when cells in the body divide and grow at an excessive rate and iirc we don't see her with tumors therefore we can assume she has a sure fire method of healing or avoiding tumors.


Completely irrelevant.

Just because Tsunade healed a guy who was in a coma for a week doesn't mean she can heal herself. That exactly why a doctor can't remove a tumor from his own brain.
Tsunade will get comatosed after she gets hit by Tsukiyomi, she isn't doing anything. She is a vegetable at that point.
Even if we assume that she has Byakugou active before she gets hit by Tsukiyomi, that wouldn't guarantee her survival, because we absolutely have no idea how long it would take her to fully heal the damage done to her brain. There is also the fact that Itachi can just close in on her and decapitate her whe she trying to heal through her vegetable state.




Turrin said:


> I don't think debating durability between Madara's Susano'o and Itachi's Susano'o really matters here. Let's say they are equal, that means Tsunade's punchs/kicks are at least effective enough against V2-Susano'o,



Thats a common misconception. Tsunade's punches didn't go beyond cracking V2, and her kick broke through Susano'O only when coupled with A's hit. 
And the most important part is that Madara wasn't retaliating. He wasn't blocking, or countering her. 
Tsunade would be pretty helpless against V2.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## pluuuuffff (Aug 17, 2016)

Susano'o with Yata it's enough to protect Itachi from all her punches...

Susano'o Fist it's enough to do what he did to Nagato back there...

And she doesn't have any feats to defend against Tsukuyomi... Even though I believe that she could sustain it to a certain point... Itachi can attack her when she's in that "vulnerable" period.

But, this is not easy gg, because she might be hard to put in the Genjutsu... And since she's a medical ninja,  I don't see any  of Itachi's normal genjutsu actually working here, since she can disrupt her chakra flow pretty easily.

Itachi has advantage, but it's a hard fight.


----------



## Android (Aug 17, 2016)

First of all @People comparing Madara's Rinnegan + senju DNA enhanced susanoo to Itachi punny susanoo


Sapherosth said:


> V4 Susano shits on any version of Madara's Susano outside PS.


 hahahahahahahaha
 :

*Spoiler*: __ 










Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, best feat of Katsuyu's acid is melting rock. Best feat of Mei's acid is slowly melting the ribcage.
> Its pretty obvious which one of them is the better feat.


Would you also place the 6 tails's acid below Mei's ??? because it's best feat is melting a tree 


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also like others pointed out, Madara with his V1.5-V2 was able to swim inside Mei's lava. Pretty obvious that Katsuyu's acid isn't going to do anything to Susano'O onless Susano'O is dipped in a lake full of acid and the user runs out of chakra or something.


Do you have any feats to suggest that Itachi's v4/v3 susanoo which he can't keep for a very long time can survive buffed massive scale Acid .
Because last time acid and susanoo went head to head , susanoo lost


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Tsunade takes this fight High difficulty.


Why not midd difficulty ??? 


Grimmjowsensei said:


> We know for a fact that Shinobi are more durable than rocks(in before Obito), so there is no indication that Katsuyu's acid can instatly corrode a shinobi like he did to that rock.


Sasuke basic B-rank Katon burned his arm 


Sapherosth said:


> Wait....So if Kasuyu is sending barrages of acid at Susano, how will Tsunade have the time to intercept and attack as well? Wouldn't Tsunade also be melted completely as well since she'll be close to Susano? and the attacks covers a wide range?


Or she's just on top of Katsuyu buffining her acid with her chakra .
She was able to buff Onoki's jinton to the point where it can solo 5 Mokuton/Rinnegan enhanced legged susanoo

------------------
OT : Tsunade should win this fight , and it's high time people stope wasting time with Itachi's fanboys
Not really sure why Itachi finger genjutsu is being mentioned when fodder Naruto was resisting it and was about to break it , and his chakra control <<<<<<<<<<< Tsunade's
Also Tsunade was taking on Madara and she didn't fall for his genjutsu , so there's that too
In CQC Itachi gets destroyed , Tsunade was able to tag Edo Madara , whom his reaction speed is superior to Itachi , and a single punch or a kick will fuck up his pretty face and turn him to a red past on the ground .
She can also keep him on the defense with a massive scale acid , to exhaust his already piss poor stamina , and with her superhuman strength she can knock him off balance of send him flying away by creating destructive shockwaves by punching the ground .
All what she needs to do is keep distance and keep him on the defense , eventually he'll fall on the ground and start bleeding from the mouth , so yeah she can easily outlast him .
But then again , i don't see 50 % Katsuyu restricted , so i guess it's a GG ???

Reactions: Winner 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Mithos (Aug 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> She used it during the 3 way deadlock battle. I doubt she exhausted her Byakugo back then, so it can be turned off.



She didn't use Byakugou during the Three Way Deadlock; she used _Souzou Saisei_.

Souzou Saisei requires the user to form a hand-seal and consciously activate it with _each use_, while Byakugou is passive regeneration that restores the user without hand-seals or constant effort.

The distinction was made during the war when Tsunade used Souzou Saisei to regenerate from Mabui's teleporation technique, but then used Byakugou later on and it was a new technique with emphasis on its ability to heal without hand-seals.

The DB also implies that Byakugou raises the user's battle power in addition to its regenerative abilities, somewhat akin to an imperfect sage mode.


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 18, 2016)

Mithos said:


> She didn't use Byakugou during the Three Way Deadlock; she used _Souzou Saisei_.
> 
> Souzou Saisei requires the user to form a hand-seal and consciously activate it with _each use_, while Byakugou is passive regeneration that restores the user without hand-seals or constant effort.
> 
> ...





If that's the case, then why did she turn old from using what is supposedly an inferior technique? Surely her chakra isn't THAT low, right? 

The last time i read that battle, the technique Tsunade used was a technique that regenerates her cells, practically identical to that of Byakugo. Not sure the difference is to be honest.


----------



## Mithos (Aug 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> If that's the case, then why did she turn old from using what is supposedly an inferior technique? Surely her chakra isn't THAT low, right?
> 
> The last time i read that battle, the technique Tsunade used was a technique that regenerates her cells, practically identical to that of Byakugo. Not sure the difference is to be honest.



Because she was rusty and out of practice.

Remember, that was the same Tsunade who said that "healing would consume too much chakra" while using _shosen_ on herself [Ch. 164 pg 15].



Naruto also thought that she would turn old and collapse after using Souzou Saisei, like she had before, but she explains that she still has plenty of chakra left [Ch. 563 pg 7].



It's just a matter of chakra, and rusty Tsunade was out of breath from chasing Kabuto and Orochimaru and had trouble using shosen, while in Part II she could fight Madara for hours and use her regeneration plenty of times, even after healing the other Gokage.

The difference between the techniques is that Souzou Saisei must be activated each time in order to heal. She used Sousou Saisei to heal the damage from Mabui's teleportation. If she was wounded again, she would have to make another hand seal and use the technique again. Byakugou, once active, however, heals the user over and over again without having to use it again. And it's implied to boost fighting strength, but that's separate from its healing differences. Byakugou is basically a constant Souzou Saisei.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Would you also place the 6 tails's acid below Mei's ??? because it's best feat is melting a tree


Yes.
If 6 tails wasn't fodder though I'd consider putting it on or above Mei for being a powerful Bijuu. Although it would be purely speculative.


> Do you have any feats to suggest that Itachi's v4/v3 susanoo which he can't keep for a very long time can survive buffed massive scale Acid .


Whats a "buffed massive scale acid" ?


> Because last time acid and susanoo went head to head , susanoo lost


No.
Last time the weakest form of Susano'O went head to head against acid, it was losing slowly.
Don't try to twist the facts, that makes it evident how weak your arguments are.



> Sasuke basic B-rank Katon burned his arm


You mean the shape manipulated CS powered Katon ? That Katon also went through concrete like hot knife through butter.



> OT : Tsunade should win this fight ,


She doesn't stand a chance.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


----------



## Android (Aug 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes.
> If 6 tails wasn't fodder though I'd consider putting it on or above Mei for being a powerful Bijuu. Although it would be purely speculative.


This isn't a good logic


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Whats a "buffed massive scale acid" ?


Katsuyu's acid , which Tsunade is onna be boosting with her chakra , the same way can she boost Onoki's jinton , or
any other jutsu for that matter 


Grimmjowsensei said:


> No.
> Last time the weakest form of Susano'O went head to head against acid, it was losing slowly.
> Don't try to twist the facts, that makes it evident how weak your arguments are.


Good , and the same shit will happen here , just on a bigger scale 


Grimmjowsensei said:


> You mean the shape manipulated CS powered Katon ? That Katon also went through concrete like hot knife through butter.


KCM tanked Madara's , and Obito's Kamui buffed fire style , yet susanoo's ribcage , which is more durable than KCM , was melted with acide 
Now , do you still think Itachi can survive acide ??


Grimmjowsensei said:


> She doesn't stand a chance.


Keep fantasizing ............

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> This isn't a good logic


It is, and it is the only logic here.
Katsuyu lacks feats, and Mei is a higher level shinobi.
And like I already mentioned in my earlier posts, even if we assume that Katsuyu's acid is stronger, it is pointless to give it arbitrary values without actually knowing how much stronger it is, and unless it is fuckloads stronger, it won't make a difference here as the best feat of Mei's acid is corroding the weakest form of Susano'O after certain amount of exposure.

And there is absolutely no reason to assume that Katsuyu's acid is fuckloads stronger to the point where it makes a world amount of difference.



> Katsuyu's acid , which Tsunade is onna be boosting with her chakra , the same way can she boost Onoki's jinton , or
> any other jutsu for that matter


It doesn't make the acid stronger, it just makes it bigger. And yes Susano'O can casually tank it, assuming Itachi does nothing to retaliate while all that is happening and decides to tank it.



> Good , and the same shit will happen here , just on a bigger scale


Uhm, no it won't  I just debunked your claim.
You have to explain your reasoning here.



> KCM tanked Madara's , and Obito's Kamui buffed fire style , yet susanoo's ribcage , which is more durable than KCM , was melted with acide


There is absolutely no evidence that Madara's or Obito's katons are stronger than Sasuke's, you just made that up.
Sasuke's katon is shape manipulated and is also boosted by CS chakra. The only thing you can argue is that Madara and Obito's Katons are alot bigger.
Bigger doesn't mean stronger pound per pound.



> Now , do you still think Itachi can survive acide ??


I never said Itachi can survive acid, I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
I just said that shinobi are more durable than a rock, and the acid can't melt them instantly like it does to a rock. That was in response to someone saying that Mei's acid was slowly melting Sasuke.



> Keep fantasizing ............


Its a fact based on the manga and common sense. *-snip-*

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Android (Aug 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is, and it is the only logic here.
> Katsuyu lacks feats, and Mei is a higher level shinobi.
> And like I already mentioned in my earlier posts, even if we assume that Katsuyu's acid is stronger, it is pointless to give it arbitrary values without actually knowing how much stronger it is, and unless it is fuckloads stronger, it won't make a difference here as the best feat of Mei's acid is corroding the weakest form of Susano'O after certain amount of exposure.
> 
> And there is absolutely no reason to assume that Katsuyu's acid is fuckloads stronger to the point where it makes a world amount of difference.


No , you're just cherry picking .
Lack of feats isn't cutting here , Hamura lacks feat as well , would you place below konohamaru ?? (well , i wouldn't be surprise me if you do) there's no reason to believe Katsuyu's acid is weaker than Mei's .
It doesn't need to be fuckloads stronger , all what it needs is to be strong enuff to push Itachi to the highest form of susanoo and keep him on the defense , sooner or later , the guy's gonna run out of power , and he'll be a sitting duck .


Grimmjowsensei said:


> It doesn't make the acid stronger, it just makes it bigger. And yes Susano'O can casually tank it, assuming Itachi does nothing to retaliate while all that is happening and decides to tank it.


Like i said , it doesn't need to be several tiers stronger , all what it needs to do is to keep him on the defense , dude's got piss poor stamina , she'll outlast him in the end


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Uhm, no it won't  I just debunked your claim.
> You have to explain your reasoning here.


You didn't debunked shit bro , sorry


Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is absolutely no evidence that Madara's or Obito's katons are stronger than Sasuke's, you just made that up.
> Sasuke's katon is shape manipulated and is also boosted by CS chakra. The only thing you can argue is that Madara and Obito's Katons are alot bigger.
> Bigger doesn't mean stronger pound per pound.


You must be a troll if you think hebi sasuke's shittyass punny fire is as strong as Madara's fire style great annihilation , Madara was also boosted with the Rinnegan chakra and senju DNA , no ?


Grimmjowsensei said:


> I never said Itachi can survive acid, I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
> I just said that shinobi are more durable than a rock, and the acid can't melt them instantly like it does to a rock. That was in response to someone saying that Mei's acid was slowly melting Sasuke.


I see ................


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its a fact based on the manga and common sense.


*-snip-*


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No , you're just cherry picking .


You don't know what that means do you? I am not surprised though.



> Lack of feats isn't cutting here , Hamura lacks feat as well , would you place below konohamaru ?? (well , i wouldn't be surprise me if you do)


You made it apparent that you absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.
How is Hamura and Konohomaru comparable to Mei and Katsuyu ?
IS there any reason to believe that Katsuyu is much stronger than Mei like Hamura is stronger than Konohomaru ? Is there a bit in the manga where it elaborated on the difference in their power ?
You are just talking out of your ass man, give me a break.



> there's no reason to believe Katsuyu's acid is weaker than Mei's .


There is no reason to believe it is stronger than Mei's either.
Best way to deal with that is to look at their feats and their overall standing.
It doesn't make sense for Katsuyu's acid to be alot stronger than Mei's, because it is a shittyass summon and Mei is a kage level shinobi and Mei has better feats.
And additionally, it doesn't get us anywhere to assume that Katsuyu's acid is stronger than Mei's unless we exactly know the difference.



> It doesn't need to be fuckloads stronger , all what it needs is to be strong enuff to push Itachi to the highest form of susanoo and keep him on the defense , sooner or later , the guy's gonna run out of power , and he'll be a sitting duck .



Itachi will casually dodge everything Katsuyu can throw at him and he'll use Susano'O to defend only when he absolutely can't do anything else and no Tsunade is not outlasting Itachi.
Its not like Itachi can't do anything but just defend here.
You are imagining a fanfic scenario where Itachi is slow, stupid and incapable, while Tsunadei and Katsuyu are too fast for him to be able to anything.
Katsuyu can't even properly react to Manda. She isn't hitting Itachi with her acid, nor reacting to him under any circumstance unless she blindsides Itachi or catches him in a position where can't move or some shit.



> Like i said , it doesn't need to be several tiers stronger , all what it needs to do is to keep him on the defense , dude's got piss poor stamina , she'll outlast him in the end


He isn't in his deathbed here, so no, he'll be fine.



> You didn't debunked shit bro , sorry


You made a flawed claim, and based off of that claim used transitive logic to prove a point.
I debunked the claim, and debunked the argument.
Now you have to come up with something else or just concede the point.
I advice you do the latter to save us both some time.




> You must be a troll if you think hebi sasuke's shittyass punny fire is as strong as Madara's fire style great annihilation , Madara was also boosted with the Rinnegan chakra and senju DNA , no ?


There is absolutely no reason to assume that Rinnegan or senju DNA makes his katons stronger.

Either prove me that Madara's Katon is stronger than Sasuke's or just concede.
I advice you do the latter and save us both some time.


> I see ................



So yeah, learn to read properly before you jump in the middle of a debate.
Or you'll get dismantled just like that before you even know it.



> Nah that's just your rampant disgusting fanboyism , if you take off the wanking glasses i'm pretty sure you'll see things differently ......



Resorting to ad hominem ; calling others fanboys to dismiss their opinions, actuallys shows how you don't even have an argument to being with.
Look, lets do it this way. You take your time, build an argument, write it down and then come here and post it. And if you manage to back up any of  your claims with manga scans then I'll give you a shot at a debate.
How does that sound ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Android (Aug 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You don't know what that means do you? I am not surprised though.


I'm pretty sure you do , which is all that matters .


Grimmjowsensei said:


> IS there any reason to believe that Katsuyu is much stronger than Mei like Hamura is stronger than Konohomaru ? Is there a bit in the manga where it elaborated on the difference in their power ?
> You are just talking out of your ass man, give me a break.


So you do think Konohamaru is stronger than Hamura because he has better feats , i thought so
Either way Katsuyu's acid is pretty large and can cover a huge AOE and can melt the ground under him , so Itachi needs at least his V3 Susanoo , regardless of how strong Katsuyu's acid is .


Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no reason to believe it is stronger than Mei's either.
> Best way to deal with that is to look at their feats and their overall standing.
> It doesn't make sense for Katsuyu's acid to be alot stronger than Mei's, because it is a shittyass summon and Mei is a kage level shinobi and Mei has better feats.
> And additionally, it doesn't get us anywhere to assume that Katsuyu's acid is stronger than Mei's unless we exactly know the difference.


And i already told you that this is pretty dumb logic
Mei being a kage level , and katsuyu being a " shitty " summon does not mean that :
Mei >>> Katsuyu in every single thing .
You also said Hebi sasuke's fire style shouldn't be weaker than Madara's fire style
Oh wait , Madara's a fucking Top Tier while hebi sasuke is high Jounin at best . so what happened to " overall standing "
Like i said theres no reason to assum that Katsuyu's acid which is her/it's main offensive jutsu should be weaker , especially when it was protrayed being able to one shot Orochimaru . Even with his regeneration and Kawarimi no jutsu .
You also fucked up when you assumed the 6 tails's acid , a Bijuu's acid is weaker than Mei's

And  @ Katsuyu being a shittyass summon BTW .


Grimmjowsensei said:


> *Itachi will casually dodge everything Katsuyu can throw* at him and he'll use Susano'O to defend only when he absolutely can't do anything else and no Tsunade is not outlasting Itachi.
> Its not like Itachi can't do anything but just defend here.
> You are imagining a fanfic scenario where Itachi is slow, stupid and incapable, while Tsunadei and Katsuyu are too fast for him to be able to anything.
> Katsuyu can't even properly react to Manda. She isn't hitting Itachi with her acid, nor reacting to him under any circumstance unless she blindsides Itachi or catches him in a position where can't move or some shit.


 @Bold
Itachi isn't lol dodging a huge AOE acid , he needs susanoo , to survive it , at least v3 susanoo and above .
You're scenario is a fanfic where Itachi is some invincible god who will casually dodge a massive AOE acid on foot , and will somehow speedblitz them and one shot them with even his lowest basic techniques , and they can't do jack about it .
And BTW , according to zetsu , Itachi is indeed dense 


Grimmjowsensei said:


> He isn't in his deathbed here, so no, he'll be fine.


She has more chakra than him , and more stamina , she'll outlast him in the end


Grimmjowsensei said:


> You made a flawed claim, and based off of that claim used transitive logic to prove a point.
> I debunked the claim, and debunked the argument.
> Now you have to come up with something else or just concede the point.
> I advice you do the latter to save us both some time.


Says a Bijuu is a fodder
Says my claims are flawed
Lol , whatever you say fanboy .


Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is absolutely no reason to assume that Rinnegan or senju DNA makes his katons stronger.
> Either prove me that Madara's Katon is stronger than Sasuke's or just concede.
> I advice you do the latter and save us both some time.


Well let's see , you care about " overall standing " right ???
You said Mei's acid is stronger than Katsuyu because she's a kage level while Katsuyu is a " shittyass " summon right ??
Well , Madara and Obito are Top Tiers , while hebi Sasuke's a " shittyass " high Jounin at best , so there you go .
A fire style buffed by Hashi's chakra , and fire style buffed by Kamui's wind are stronger , simple as that . It's a matter of using common sense , something you seem to be lacking .


Grimmjowsensei said:


> So yeah, learn to read properly before you jump in the middle of a debate.
> Or you'll get dismantled just like that before you even know it.


TBF , this doesn't change the fact that the logic you were using was so shitty .


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Resorting to ad hominem ; calling others fanboys to dismiss their opinions, actuallys shows how you don't even have an argument to being with.
> Look, lets do it this way. You take your time, build an argument, write it down and then come here and post it. And if you manage to back up any of your claims with manga scans then I'll give you a shot at a debate.
> How does that sound ?


Lol , get over yourself please  , you got it all wrong bud , i'm not here to debate with you , i don't debate with average posters , because i know you won't change your views , fanboy's mind is resilient to logic after all . This isn't me debating with you , this is me showing you what a terrible logic you're using because right now , you're arguments ar as good a s something you can find in the trash can .

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Turrin (Aug 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And the most important part is that Madara wasn't retaliating. He wasn't blocking, or countering her.
> Tsunade would be pretty helpless against V2.


Ei hit landed on a completely different part of Susano'o and contributed nothing beyond halting Madara's retreat. 

Tsunade landed one punch and it cracked Susano'o sending Madara flying. Kicks are stronger than punches and Tsunade strongest attacks in her Taijutsu style are her kicks, like Sakura's are her punches; so it fits that her kick would do more damage to Susano'o than her punch, completely obliterating it.

However ether way, considering the damage one of Tsunade's punches did, It's very easy to see a punch combo from Tsunade decimating Susano'o as well. And I don't see that as a reliable defense. Itachi needs V3/V4

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> So you do think Konohamaru is stronger than Hamura because he has better feats ,


You either didn't read what I wrote or you couldn't comprehend it. Eitherway, go back and read it again.



> i thought so
> Either way Katsuyu's acid is pretty large and can cover a huge AOE and can melt the ground under him , so Itachi needs at least his V3 Susanoo , regardless of how strong Katsuyu's acid is .


"Katsuyu's acid is big so Itachi needs V3 Susano'O defend against it."
There is no substance behind that claim.



> And i already told you that this is pretty dumb logic


Just because you can't understand something, or you disagree with it, doesn't make it dumb.
I can't take you seriously till you stop acting like a 10 year old fyi.



> Mei being a kage level , and katsuyu being a " shitty " summon does not mean that :
> Mei >>> Katsuyu in every single thing .


I never said that.
But if we are comparing similar things, and we don't have much else to go off of, then using their respective standing can allow us to reach a consensus.
In this case I'd side with Mei being at least as potent as Katusuyu in using their acid or at least I don't think there would be a huge difference between them eitherway.



> You also said Hebi sasuke's fire style shouldn't be weaker than Madara's fire style
> Oh wait , Madara's a fucking Top Tier while hebi sasuke is high Jounin at best . so what happened to " overall standing "


I never said that Mei's acid is stronger than Katsuyu because I view Mei as a stronger individual. I said that it doesn't make sense for Katsuyu's acid to be much stronger than Mei's to the extend that it makes a huge difference, which is what you would need for it to be effective against Susano'O.

And the difference here is, they both excel at Katon jutsu, and there is no evidence that there is a huge disparity between them when it comes to using a basic katon other than it's size which can be explained by Madara having shit ton of chakra.
If size was an indicator of superiority, then Kisame would be superior to anyone that we know of just going off by the magnitude of the water jutsu he can use.

We also know for a fact that Sasuke's katon is shape manipulated and powered by CS chakra.
You could argue that Madara's katon would be stronger if Sasuke's katon didn't have those advantages.



> Like i said theres no reason to assum that Katsuyu's acid which is her/it's main offensive jutsu should be weaker , especially when it was protrayed being able to one shot Orochimaru . Even with his regeneration and Kawarimi no jutsu .


I think Mei's acid would also corrode Orochimaru as long as he is exposed to it for a certain amount of time, unless you think Orochimaru is more durable than Ribcage Susano'O, which he surely isn't.


> You also fucked up when you assumed the 6 tails's acid , a Bijuu's acid is weaker than Mei's
> 
> And  @ Katsuyu being a shittyass summon BTW .



Its like saying Ichibi's sand is stronger than Gaara or his dads, which would be obviously wrong.
Katsuyu is strong among summons, but summons are fodder relative to Kage level shinobi.



> @Bold
> Itachi isn't lol dodging a huge AOE acid ,


He is, pretty casually at that.
Like I said, Katsuyu can't even react to Manda, she is extremely slow. She is a slug for fuck sakes.


> he needs susanoo , to survive it , at least v3 susanoo and above .


pure fanfic.


> You're scenario is a fanfic where Itachi is some invincible god who will casually dodge a massive AOE acid on foot , and will somehow speedblitz them and one shot them with even his lowest basic techniques , and they can't do jack about it .


My scenario is closer to the actual scenarios which Itachi has been inside the manga than the one you suggested where he is too stupid, too sluggish and too incompetent. Itachi blitzed people faster than Katsuyu and Tsunade, he dodged people faster than them and he outsmarted people who are smarter than both of them combined.

Itachi is alot faster than Tsunade, and by extention he is fuckloads stronger than Katsuyu. Katsuyu won't be able to track Itachi's movements and if she gets lucky and catches Itachi in a position where he can't dodge the acid(which is a very slim chance) then he whips out Susano'O and casually tanks it.



> And BTW , according to zetsu , Itachi is indeed dense


If we are to take Zetsu's words at face value, Itachi is also invincible.



> She has more chakra than him , and more stamina , she'll outlast him in the end


Itachi outlasted Sasuke in his death bed, who also had more stamina than him.
It totally depends on what each individual uses in battle.
Tsunade also runs on a clock when she activates Byakugou, so she isn't just sitting back and forcing Itachi to use his trump cards while she is conserving her energy.
She is the inferior fighther by a long shot, she needs to do alot more to keep up.



> Says a Bijuu is a fodder
> Says my claims are flawed
> Lol , whatever you say fanboy .


Nice ad hominem, but worthless as an argument.



> Well let's see , you care about " overall standing " right ???
> You said Mei's acid is stronger than Katsuyu because she's a kage level while Katsuyu is a " shittyass " summon right ??
> Well , Madara and Obito are Top Tiers , while hebi Sasuke's a " shittyass " high Jounin at best , so there you go .
> A fire style buffed by Hashi's chakra , and fire style buffed by Kamui's wind are stronger , simple as that . It's a matter of using common sense , something you seem to be lacking .



I adressed this above.



> TBF , this doesn't change the fact that the logic you were using was so shitty .


So you think something you misunderstood and couldn't properly reply to is shitty.
Thanks for the input but like I said, not everything you can't comprehend is stupid. Thats the mindset of a 10 year old.



> Lol , get over yourself please  , i'm not here to debate with you , i don't debate with average posters.


Ok then do yourself a favor and concede, because you are getting annihialted here and it will only get worse from here on out.



Turrin said:


> Ei hit landed on a completely different part of Susano'o and contributed nothing beyond halting Madara's retreat.


I've explained this in detail in my previous posts in this thread.
If someone pushes you from behind while someone else punches you from the front, the push will amplify the strength of the punch and the damage you recieve overall.



> Tsunade landed one punch and it cracked Susano'o sending Madara flying. Kicks are stronger than punches and Tsunade strongest attacks in her Taijutsu style are her kicks, like Sakura's are her punches; so it fits that her kick would do more damage to Susano'o than her punch, completely obliterating it.


A crack wouldn't accomplish anything. The point isn't to hurt Susano'O, it is to hurt the user.
Her kick only destroyed a chunk of it because it was combined with weight altered A's hit.



> However ether way, considering the damage one of Tsunade's punches did, It's very easy to see a punch combo from Tsunade decimating Susano'o as well. And I don't see that as a reliable defense. Itachi needs V3/V4



If it would decimate Susano'O then she and the rest of the kages wouldn't have combined their attacks to bring down Madara's V1.5. Pretty obvious that a couple of punches wouldn't cut it.

And like I already mentioned, which is the most important point here btw,  Madara was just using a bigger ribcage without the arms and the weapons and he wasn't retaliating. He was just standing there and taking the punishment. Because he wasn't taking the Gokage seriously and he was just dicking around.

Itachi can block Tsunade's hits, whether it is a kick or a punch, most of the damage will be absorbed and she won't be able to inflict any damage and Itachi can counter simultaneously, with that karatechop that he used on Nagato and took out his limbs. Tsunade will get dismantled quickly.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Turrin (Aug 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I've explained this in detail in my previous posts in this thread.
> If someone pushes you from behind while someone else punches you from the front, the push will amplify the strength of the punch and the damage you recieve overall.
> A crack wouldn't accomplish anything. The point isn't to hurt Susano'O, it is to hurt the user.
> Her kick only destroyed a chunk of it because it was combined with weight altered A's hit.
> If it would decimate Susano'O then she and the rest of the kages wouldn't have combined their attacks to bring down Madara's V1.5. Pretty obvious that a couple of punches wouldn't cut it.


That would make sense if it was happening at the same time, but it didn't. Ei hits Susano'o stopping it's motion and complete's his blow. Than Tsunade kick's Susano'o. It's not like they hit Susano'o at the same time.

And there was absolutely no indication from the author whatsoever that someone how Ei's blow enhanced the offensive might of Tsunade's, so this seems to be heavily bordering on fanfiction to me to begin w/



> And like I already mentioned, which is the most important point here btw,  Madara was just using a bigger ribcage without the arms and the weapons and he wasn't retaliating. He was just standing there and taking the punishment. Because he wasn't taking the Gokage seriously and he was just dicking around.
> 
> Itachi can block Tsunade's hits, whether it is a kick or a punch, most of the damage will be absorbed and she won't be able to inflict any damage and Itachi can counter simultaneously, with that karatechop that he used on Nagato and took out his limbs. Tsunade will get dismantled quickly.


Tsunade went up against 5 Legged Stage 3 Susano'o, I don't see the idea of 1 Stage 2 Susano'o to be threatening to her whatsoever.


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *No I wasn't. My point was that Itachi was in a worse state *when he pulled out and maintained Susano'O.
> State covers everything including his exhaustion, wounds and his terminal illness. Terminal illness being the big part of it obviously.


Yes dude, I know this.:


HandfullofNaruto said:


> I was referring to his sickness when I said they were in injured/exhausted states.


 


> Thats actually not true. Sasuke used Amaterasu only once, while Itachi used it twice. Itachi also used Tsukiyomi. Thats comparable MS usage, and likely more demanding. You also forgot that he used Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu just before he died. You are right about enton but outside one Amaterasu and a couple of enton, Sasuke hasn't used much. He used one chidori on A, and sharingan genjutsu on C. Itachi used sharingan genjutsu, MS genjutsu, 2 katons and a karasubunshin outside MS.
> As for getting wounded, Sasuke got hit by A's chop, thats the only damage he sustained.
> Itachi had a huge gashing wound on his leg because of the shuriken, and he absorbed some damage from Kirin as evident looking his cloak was gone and he was faceplanted on the floor. So again, as far as wounds go, they were more or less comparable, bar Itachi's terminal illness. Add that in, and Itachi was in a much worse state.


You need to go re-read chapters 457-466. Sasuke is literally tanking multiple attacks and dishing out multiple MS Jutsu and maintaining Susanoo the entire time. Sasuke uses Chidori Twice and channels Chidori into his blade three times (maybe twice). Sasuke uses Sharingan Genjutsu Twice. Sasuke uses Amaterasu twice. Sasuke uses Enton twice. (All four Amaterasu + Enton were done while maintaining Susanoo.) Sasuke tanks Suiton + Raiton from Darui. Sasuke tanks Liger Bomb. Sasuke tanks Raigyaku Suihei. Sasuke tanks Laser Circus + Okomaitachi + Rendan Suna Shigure + Kiki Sankaku. Sasuke tanks Yoton Yokai no Jutsu. Sasuke tanks Hiramekarei release. Sasuke tanks Futok Komu no Jutsu.


> *Itachi's sickness has nothing to do with his injuries and exhaustion.*


 *What?




			Itachi was in his deathbed, as Tobi said his illness was killing him and he used every medicine he could find just so he could keep himself alive.
Do a research on terminal illnesses and people in their deathbed to grasp the concept of fighting in that state.
		
Click to expand...

 Dude I support Orochimaru you really think I don't know what deathbed means? Also Itachi wasn't in his deathbed at all. He was literally up and about walking around fighting people: Itachi was sick and taking meds but I would not consider him in his deathbed. You can paint his illness into the floor or into the sky. As in people will act as if it's not a huge detail while others (you) act as if he were Orochimaru status:



Sasuke was only hit once.

Click to expand...

Okay.*


> Sasuke used ribcage for 30-40 seconds at most against A and Gaara. Probably less than that. Then he maintained V2 for maybe 10-15 seconds. And the ribcage against Mei for maybe 10-15 seconds.


I can't take that seriously from someone who said Sasuke was "hit once" 





> Unsubstantiated  absolute horseshit.


Well could one not say that him being in a "deathbed" is absolute horseshit. The most we hear about his illness is that he was bound to die eventually. Sooner than later of course but we don't really get that much knowledge on it. 





> Completely irrelevant.


Oh my god not at all! 





> Just because Tsunade healed a guy who was in a coma for a week doesn't mean she can heal herself.


What?? So the woman who can heal herself better than she can heal others (feats/portrayal) can't do this?? You're seriously underestimating Tsunade here. 





> That exactly why a doctor can't remove a tumor from his own brain. Tsunade will get comatosed after she gets hit by Tsukiyomi, she isn't doing anything. She is a vegetable at that point.


Not if Byakugo is active. Not if Katsuyu (who can perform the same justu that healed Sasuke) is on the field. Tsukuyomi at its absolute best wont even come close to the hangovers she's suffered. 





> Even if we assume that she has Byakugou active before she gets hit by Tsukiyomi, that wouldn't guarantee her survival, because we absolutely have no idea how long it would take her to fully heal the damage done to her brain.


Considering it took moments to heal Kakashi and Sasuke we can say she does it.. in moments.

I would also like to mention:
-As soon as Sasuke was hit with Tsukuyomi Jiraiya said Tsunade was needed.
-There is no proof that the effects of Tsukuyomi don't just worsen overtime. Haha.

You can't just say that her healing the effect a few days later takes away from that feat. Aside from the fact we have no details on how that Jutsu actually effects your brain/body Tsunade was able to heal it instantly with her crappy mystic  palm technique it's insulting to say that Byakugo/Sozo Saisei can't heal its effects.





> There is also the fact that Itachi can just close in on her and decapitate her whe she trying to heal through her vegetable state.


There is also the fact that Tsunade can just close in on Itachi and flick his forehead with full force which would undoubtedly kill him. Don't bring half ass responses and expect to not receive one yourself.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 19, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> You need to go re-read chapters 457-466.
> 
> Sasuke is literally tanking multiple attacks and dishing out multiple MS Jutsu and maintaining Susanoo the entire time.


Maybe in your magination but that never happened in the manga.



> asuke uses Chidori Twice and channels Chidori into his blade three times (maybe twice).
> 
> Sasuke uses Sharingan Genjutsu Twice. Sasuke uses Amaterasu twice. Sasuke uses Enton twice. (All four Amaterasu + Enton were done while maintaining Susanoo.) Sasuke tanks Suiton + Raiton from Darui. Sasuke tanks Liger Bomb. Sasuke tanks Raigyaku Suihei. Sasuke tanks Laser Circus + Okomaitachi + Rendan Suna Shigure + Kiki Sankaku. Sasuke tanks Yoton Yokai no Jutsu. Sasuke tanks Hiramekarei release. Sasuke tanks Futok Komu no Jutsu.


Fight starts here : Link removed
First jutsu Sasuke uses is sharingan genjutsu : Link removed
Chidori and Chidori Katana Link removed
Ribcage: Link removed
Amaterasu : Link removed
Enton : Link removed
Sasuke gets hit : Link removed
2nd enton : Link removed
Fight ends.

3rd enton : Link removed
V2 Susano'O : Link removed
Chidori katana : Link removed
Ribcage : Link removed
and he is basically done : Link removed

Most of the jutsu he used here, the enton, chidori katana and V2 Susano'O are all used momentarily. The only jutsu he sustained for a certain duration is the ribcage.

Now please tell me. Where is the 2nd Amaterasu, where is the 2nd sharingan genjutsu, where is second chidori and where is his 3rd chidori katana ?
Where are the multiple hits he sustained ?

Its pretty evident that you are talking out of your ass, so please do yourself a favor and read the manga before you go into a debate. I'm really tired of spoonfeeding you basic information. I'll ignore your futher replies if you keep this up.



> What?


Link removed
He was already dying whether he exhausted himself or not.



> Dude I support Orochimaru you really think I don't know what deathbed means? Also Itachi wasn't in his deathbed


He was in his deathbed, Tobi said his time was short and he was using medicine to keep himself alive.



> *Okay.*I can't take that seriously from someone who said Sasuke was "hit once"


Its not up to you to take that seriously or not. It is in the manga, so it doesn't give a shit about what you think.
And I proved that Sasuke was only hit once.
The only attack that connected and hurt him was Raikage's karatechop, nothing else was able to breach Susano'O.



> Well could one not say that him being in a "deathbed" is absolute horseshit.


No you can't because it is stated and shown. Itachi was keeling over and coughing blood midway through the fight.



> The most we hear about his illness is that he was bound to die eventually. Sooner than later of course but we don't really get that much knowledge on it.


"Eventually."
Which part of "his time was short" you don't understand?
He literally died at the end of the battle because of his illness.



> Oh my god not at all! What?? So the woman who can heal herself better than she can heal others (feats/portrayal) can't do this??


No she can't. Like I said, a doctor can't remove a tumor from his own brain.



> You're seriously underestimating Tsunade here. Not if Byakugo is active. Not if Katsuyu (who can perform the same justu that healed Sasuke) is on the field. Tsukuyomi at its absolute best wont even come close to the hangovers she's suffered


I adressed this. There is absolutely no indication that Tsunade can heal the damage done to her brain and regain consciousness instantly.



> Considering it took moments to heal Kakashi and Sasuke we can say she does it.. in moments.


It wasn't moments. There was an unknown amount of time lapse. It can be 10 minutes, 1 hour, or 3 hours. Link removed  Link removed

On top of that, they were already in a coma for a week.

And even if we unrealistically assume it takes moments for her to completely heal, it is more than enough time to give Itachi the opening he needs to close in and decapitate her. 
Link removed Link removed

Whether tsunade can heal Tsukiyomi or not, the fight is over the moment it lands.




> I would also like to mention:
> -As soon as Sasuke was hit with Tsukuyomi Jiraiya said Tsunade was needed.


After Gai mentioned Kakashi, and medical specialists, thinking about Lee and Sasuke, Jiraiya suggested they go look for Tsunade. And that proves absolultey nothing.



> -There is no proof that the effects of Tsukuyomi don't just worsen overtime. Haha.


Absence of evidence is not evidence.  Hello, debating 101.



> You can't just say that her healing the effect a few days later takes away from that feat. Aside from the fact we have no details on how that Jutsu actually effects your brain/body Tsunade was able to heal it instantly with her crappy mystic  palm technique it's insulting to say that Byakugo/Sozo Saisei can't heal its effects.


Like I said, Tsunade healed someone elses injury and it didn't happen instantly. There was certainly a time lapse.
So even if we assume that Byakugou is active before she is hit by Tsukiyomi, and even if it can heal Tsukiyomi, unless the healing is pretty much instant, she is getting decapitated when she is vulnerable.



> There is also the fact that Tsunade can just close in on Itachi


Stopped reading here. What the fuck are you talking about man ? 



Turrin said:


> That would make sense if it was happening at the same time, but it didn't. Ei hits Susano'o stopping it's motion and complete's his blow. Than Tsunade kick's Susano'o. It's not like they hit Susano'o at the same time.


They actually did : Link removed
Tsunade connects right after A hits. Literally a panel later with no time lapse in between.



> And there was absolutely no indication from the author whatsoever that someone how Ei's blow enhanced the offensive might of Tsunade's,


Link removed
Its pretty obvious the whole point of the encounter was to show the combined might of the Gokage as they both connect simultaneously and complete their attacks at the same time. Look at their pose.



> so this seems to be heavily bordering on fanfiction to me to begin w



So you are accusing me of fanfiction for pointing out something obvious while at the same time pretending like an important part of the manga doesn't exist.

Why am I not surprised ? 



> Tsunade went up against 5 Legged Stage 3 Susano'o, I don't see the idea of 1 Stage 2 Susano'o to be threatening to her whatsoever.



They were clones.

Madara was putting pressure on the Gokage with Stage 2. Gokage was struggling to do anything to him as a unit, and all of a sudden they can deal with 5 of superior versions of Madara individually ?

Even you can't be that dishonest to believe the lie you are telling right now.

Or you can just chalk it up to Madara being incompetent. 
We've seen Itachi dismantle Nagato casually with a Karatechop. She gets hit by that and she goes down.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Turrin (Aug 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They actually did : Link removed
> Tsunade connects right after A hits. Literally a panel later with no time lapse in between.


Yeah Tsunade connects after Ei hits him, not at the same time.



> Link removed
> Its pretty obvious the whole point of the encounter was to show the combined might of the Gokage as they both connect simultaneously and complete their attacks at the same time. Look at their pose.


It was suppose to show the Gokage's team-work, Ei aided Tsunade by stoping Madara movement allowing Tsunade a free kick, he did not aid her by providing additional striking force.



> They were clones.


Cool, and my premise is that 5 Legged-Stage 3 Clones > 1 Stage 2 Itachi. Not that 1 Clone is > Itachi.



> Madara was putting pressure on the Gokage with Stage 2. Gokage was struggling to do anything to him as a unit, and all of a sudden they can deal with 5 of superior versions of Madara individually ?


\
No he wasn't. Ei and Onoki beat the piss out his Stage 3 Susano'o 1 chapter into their battle. They were struggling with the Mokuton moves Madara was using against them like Tree-World/Flower Tree World, in combination with Stage-2 Susano'o, but even those they overcame, and fight the clones 5v1 was suppose to be seen as an even greater threat than what they had faced prior given the flow of the battle.

So writing off the danger here as oh it's just clones is pretty dishonest.




> We've seen Itachi dismantle Nagato casually with a Karatechop. She gets hit by that and she goes down.


And we saw the clones bust through Gaara's ultimate defense, which is  a more impressive offensive display that Itachi's Karate chop. Tsunade took on those Susano'o wielding that greater offense and was able to defend herself and continue fighting. I don't see any reason whatsoever to believe that Itachi can easily dismantle her w/ Stage 2 alone.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Turrin (Aug 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Fight starts here : Link removed
> First jutsu Sasuke uses is sharingan genjutsu : Link removed
> Chidori and Chidori Katana Link removed
> Ribcage: Link removed
> ...


Also FYI

Sasuke First Jutsu is using Chidori Katana, right here:
Link removed

If you look at the lower mid panel you can see his blade is coated with Raiton Chakra. This is also why Darui concludes that Ei's intel about Sasuke being a Raiton user was correct following that interaction.

Also when it comes to the other Enton uses, he must be generating the black-flames from somewhere which means he must be using Amaterasu to generate them. For example when he forms his Enton shield around Rib-Cage Susano'o here:
Link removed

He must have used Amaterasu to create those flames, as the flames from the previous Amaterasu weren't anywhere near Sasuke's rib-cage Susano'o, but rather on the Samurai

Additionally when he uses Enton on Gaara he also had to get the flames from somwhere. In this case maybe he gather pre-existing flames to him off panel to form the fireballs, but we certainly don't know that's the case for sure; and he may have also generate the flames w/ another Amaterasu.

But he at least used Amaterasu once more to create the flames used for the Enton Shield and Kagatsuchi.

So at the very least your missing one more Amaterasu usage (though it may have been 2) and another Chidori Katana usage. He also fought Samurai right before engaging Ei, where he at the very least used Chidori Katana another time. So that should be accounted for as well.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 19, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Yeah Tsunade connects after Ei hits him, not at the same time.


It doesn't matter if there is a split second in between their hits. A's thrust would still send Madara in Tsunade's direction, thus amplify the impact of her kick.



> It was suppose to show the Gokage's team-work, Ei aided Tsunade by stoping Madara movement allowing Tsunade a free kick, he did not aid her by providing additional striking force.


Its not within A's capability to bend the rules of physics. If when a baseball player hits an incoming ball with a bat, the ball is launched in a certain direction and another one hits it again from the opposing direction, the impact will be calculated by factoring in both of the opposing forces.



> Cool, and my premise is that 5 Legged-Stage 3 Clones > 1 Stage 2 Itachi. Not that 1 Clone is > Itachi.


Your premise is completely made up though. 

Madara can single handedly outplay tsunade with the most basic ribcage and a clone feint
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

Itachi can easily replicate that by using a higher stage of Susano'O. Your off panel clone example is as dishonest as it can get.



> No he wasn't. Ei and Onoki beat the piss out his Stage 3 Susano'o 1 chapter into their battle.


It was A, Onoki and Mei that got the job done. And they did nothing to him other than breaking the ribs.
Where prior to that Madara was handling A and Mei at the same time and forcing both Onoki and Gaara on the defensive just by using V1-V2.
Its pretty obvious that neither of the Kage would be able to handle 5 real Madara's individually when they were barely dealing with 1 as a unit.



> They were struggling with the Mokuton moves Madara was using against them like Tree-World/Flower Tree World, in combination with Stage-2 Susano'o, but even those they overcame, and fight the clones 5v1 was suppose to be seen as an even greater threat than what they had faced prior given the flow of the battle.
> 
> So writing off the danger here as oh it's just clones is pretty dishonest.



Not as dishonest as saying that Tsunade being able to deal with 5 clones equates to being able to deal with Itachi while ignoring that she needed the aid of 3 other kage to be able to land a significant strike on Madara's V1.5 when he wasn't even retaliating.



> And we saw the clones bust through Gaara's ultimate defense, which is  a more impressive offensive display that Itachi's Karate chop. Tsunade took on those Susano'o wielding that greater offense and was able to defend herself and continue fighting. I don't see any reason whatsoever to believe that Itachi can easily dismantle her w/ Stage 2 alone.



Its an irrelevant comparison. You don't need 5 clones to bisect Tsunade, as Madara proved that when he casually plunged her sword through her like hot knife through butter by using his V1. 

The Karatechop example is to show that Itachi can rip her apart by only using SusanoO's bare hands and he doesn't need the higher stages to deal with her. I mean he can use them, but I don't see Tsunade forcing him to use them at least.



Turrin said:


> Also FYI
> 
> Sasuke First Jutsu is using Chidori Katana, right here:
> Link removed
> ...



Yeah I missed that, although I don't think chidori katana is a taxing technique, it is a sustained technique(basically channeling chakra) so its drainage is completely in proportion to the duration it is used. 
I highly doubt that momentarily using it makes any kind of impact on someones chakra pool, and in all of the cases Sasuke used it very briefly.



> Also when it comes to the other Enton uses, he must be generating the black-flames from somewhere which means he must be using Amaterasu to generate them. For example when he forms his Enton shield around Rib-Cage Susano'o here:
> Link removed
> 
> He must have used Amaterasu to create those flames, as the flames from the previous Amaterasu weren't anywhere near Sasuke's rib-cage Susano'o, but rather on the Samurai


Nah. We have only seen Sasuke do it once, and that was against Kaguya when he was trapped in the ice. And it was likely because he couldn't form it in his hand or release it from his body like he usally does because he was blocked by ice, or whatever the reason but it was the outlier.



> Additionally when he uses Enton on Gaara he also had to get the flames from somwhere. In this case maybe he gather pre-existing flames to him off panel to form the fireballs, but we certainly don't know that's the case for sure; and he may have also generate the flames w/ another Amaterasu.


ıt is very likely that he used the existing flames or you know just used enton like he said he did.



> But he at least used Amaterasu once more to create the flames used for the Enton Shield and Kagatsuchi.


No he didn't. 



> So at the very least your missing one more Amaterasu usage (though it may have been 2) and another Chidori Katana usage. He also fought Samurai right before engaging Ei, where he at the very least used Chidori Katana another time. So that should be accounted for as well.


Like I said, Sasuke can use enton without Amaterasu.
I concede on the chakra blade in the first instance against Raikage.
If we are accounting in the stuff he used before the fight, then I should note that Itachi used two karasubunshins before his fight against Sasuke.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Turrin (Aug 20, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It doesn't matter if there is a split second in between their hits. A's thrust would still send Madara in Tsunade's direction, thus amplify the impact of her kick.


I don't see any evidence at all that Ei's blow sent Madara flying w/ such force that it would substantially enhance the striking force of Tsunade's kick. 



> Its not within A's capability to bend the rules of physics. If when a baseball player hits an incoming ball with a bat, the ball is launched in a certain direction and another one hits it again from the opposing direction, the impact will be calculated by factoring in both of the opposing forces.


And the force of Madara traveling in the opposite direction should also be accounted for. The force of Ei's blows simply countered Madara's momentum stopping his movement, not adding a huge amount of force in the opposite direction.



> Madara can single handedly outplay tsunade with the most basic ribcage and a clone feint
> big explosion
> big explosion
> big explosion
> ...


Madara landed a blow on Tsunade, which she immediately healed from. I have no doubt that Itachi could do the same. However that is not defeating Tsunade, nor does it undermine Tsunade's performance against the clones.



> It was A, Onoki and Mei that got the job done. And they did nothing to him other than breaking the ribs.
> Where prior to that Madara was handling A and Mei at the same time and forcing both Onoki and Gaara on the defensive just by using V1-V2.
> Its pretty obvious that neither of the Kage would be able to handle 5 real Madara's individually when they were barely dealing with 1 as a unit.


I fail to see anything in the Kages performance against Madara's V2 Susano'o that has relevance to their performance against the clones. 

Mei used Youton to try and melt V2 Susano'o, but it didn't melt it quick enough. However it's not like we then see her melting V3-Susano'o at a quicker rate w/ a lesser or equal attack. Rather it seems she tried to melt them throughout their scuffle and failed.

Than we see Ei attempting to physical bust Madara's V2-Susano'o and failing, but it's not like we saw Ei busting the V3 Susano'o wielded by the clones and succeeding. 

And so on.

In no instance do we see the Gokage performing better against V3 Susano'o wielded by the clones than we see them performing against V2 Susano'o.

Additionally no one is saying 1 V3 Susano'o Clone is =  1 Madara V3 Susano'o, I'm saying that 5 V3 Susano'o is > Madara wielding V2 Susano'o. So your comparison is not apt to start w/



> Its an irrelevant comparison. You don't need 5 clones to bisect Tsunade, as Madara proved that when he casually plunged her sword through her like hot knife through butter by using his V1.


Madara didn't defeat Tsunade there, just like the clones didn't defeat Tsunade when they stabbed her multiple times as well, so your comparison is irrelevant. The comparison being made here is, is Itachi's V2 Susano'o > 5 V3-Legged Madara Clone Susano'o's combined, if your answer is yes, than I want to see some proof of that pretty extreme assertion.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 20, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I don't see any evidence at all that Ei's blow sent Madara flying w/ such force that it would substantially enhance the striking force of Tsunade's kick.


The force was enough to crack Susano'O, so it was at least the equivalent of Tsunade's initial hit, which sent Madara flying quite a distance big explosion
You can see he is roughly 15 -20 meters away from the point of impact right after Tsunade hits him.



> And the force of Madara traveling in the opposite direction should also be accounted for. The force of Ei's blows simply countered Madara's momentum stopping his movement, not adding a huge amount of force in the opposite direction.


Of course it is.
In this case for you to be right, the push from Mei's water dragon should be equal to A's impact, which I highly doubt. Even if it initially was, right after it launched Madara from its mouth, Madara would start to slow down, so by the time A hit him, Madara didn't have the momentum when he had when the water dragon initially pushed him. big explosion
Eitherway it was clearly a combined hit from Mei(because you can clearly see the water dragon launching Madara out of its mouth with a toungle like thing), A and Tsunade.



> Madara landed a blow on Tsunade, which she immediately healed from. I have no doubt that Itachi could do the same. However that is not defeating Tsunade, nor does it undermine Tsunade's performance against the clones.


The point is, Madara can land a hit on Tsunade with the most basic ribcage Susano'O when he wanted to.



> I'm saying that 5 V3 Susano'o is > Madara wielding V2 Susano'o. So your comparison is not apt to start w/



And thats what I'm calling bullshit on. Based on how Kage performed against Madara as unit, and based on how they were performing against 5 clones individually.



> Madara didn't defeat Tsunade there, just like the clones didn't defeat Tsunade when they stabbed her multiple times as well, so your comparison is irrelevant. The comparison being made here is, is Itachi's V2 Susano'o > 5 V3-Legged Madara Clone Susano'o's combined, if your answer is yes, than I want to see some proof of that pretty extreme assertion.



I never said he did. I am just saying that outmanuvering Tsunade and landing a hit on her doesn't take more than using V1-V2 Susano'O.

So there is nothing special those 5 clones did that Madara individually couldn't.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 22, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Maybe in your magination but that never happened in the manga.


oh geez. Ill try to keep my magination under control, sorry. 





> Fight starts here : quickly get behind Kakashi
> First jutsu Sasuke uses is sharingan genjutsu : quickly get behind Kakashi
> Chidori and Chidori Katana quickly get behind Kakashi
> Ribcage: quickly get behind Kakashi
> ...


I mistook Sasukes Enton for an Amaterasu and I thought he used Sharingan Genjutsu on a Samurai though I quickly realized I was mistaken: anyway changing 1 Amaterasu to Enton and sacrificing one Sharingan Genjutsu doesn't really change much. I never meant to say Sasuke used a second Chidori.

Its beyond safe to say: "Sasuke was using multiple MS techniques & tanking multiple attacks, all while maintaining Susanoo.





> Link removedHe was already dying whether he exhausted himself or not. He was in his deathbed, Tobi said his time was short and he was using medicine to keep himself alive. Its not up to you to take that seriously or not. It is in the manga, so it doesn't give a shit about what you think.


His time "being short" and the fact that he was "taking meds" doesn't put him in a "deathbed". Itachi was sick but nothing suggests he was walking around in constant agony other than your own bias interpretation of the manga.





> And I proved that Sasuke was only hit once.


Yea, okay. 





> The only attack that connected and hurt him was Raikage's karatechop, nothing else was able to breach Susano'O.


What?? The damage he sustained from those attacks was absolutely legitimate. He took damage from those attacks. Do you really think he was just tanking them with no damage like fucking Jubito or Orochimaru would? Even Mei comments on Sasukes condition.





> No you can't because it is stated and shown. Itachi was keeling over and coughing blood midway through the fight.


Id hardly call that "midway" he didn't have any blood coming from his mouth until he used Susanoo at the absolute end of the battle. You can do better than that dude, seriously."Its pretty evident that you are talking out of your ass, so please do yourself a favor and read the manga before you go into a debate. I'm really tired of spoonfeeding you basic information. I'll ignore your futher replies if you keep this up." lol





> "Eventually."
> Which part of "his time was short" you don't understand?
> He literally died at the end of the battle because of his illness.


 Any chance it also had to do with chakra exhaustion?????? Of course you'll deny that and act as if it wasn't a factor but whatever it really doesn't change much.


> No she can't. Like I said, a doctor can't remove a tumor from his own brain.


Quit comparing Tsunade to a doctor. A doctor also can't heal themselves:and Tsukuyomi is nothing more than Genjutsu you can't compare it to a tumor. 





> I adressed this. There is absolutely no indication that Tsunade can heal the damage done to her brain and regain consciousness instantly.


 Other than the fact that she canonically heals herself better than she can heal others. Also the fact that she's healed the effects with a much shittier healing Jutsu.





> It wasn't moments. There was an unknown amount of time lapse. It can be 10 minutes, 1 hour, or 3 hours. Link removed  Link removed


Yea, I don't think Tsunade stood there for 10 minutes considering the busy day she had ahead of her, becoming Hokage and all, let alone three hours.





> On top of that, they were already in a coma for a week. And even if we unrealistically assume it takes moments for her to completely heal, it is more than enough time to give Itachi the opening he needs to close in and decapitate her.
> Link removed Link removed Whether tsunade can heal Tsukiyomi or not, the fight is over the moment it lands.


Because a sickly Orochimaru with no knowledge and the intent to take over a body got handled by Paralysis Genjutsu. Orochimarus Genjutsu resistance is terrible yet he moved around in Itachis Paralysis Genjutsu, someone who has chakra control to the extent that Tsunade does will handle Genjutsu without a problem. Tsunades hangovers pack a larger punch than that. Try again.


> After Gai mentioned Kakashi, and medical specialists, thinking about Lee and Sasuke, Jiraiya suggested they go look for Tsunade. And that proves absolultey nothing.


Im not using it as evidence that Tsunade could have healed Sasuke on the spot (even though she has the potential.) I'm only trying to gather all of the facts together. 





> Absence of evidence is not evidence.  Hello, debating 101.


It was a joke hence the "haha" and if I had to provide evidence I could just say: "Like any other injury, gone untreated the effects will only worsen overtime." 





> Like I said, Tsunade healed someone elses injury and it didn't happen instantly. There was certainly a time lapse.


Okay assuming there is a time lapse that we can literally paint any number on, Tsunade (with Byakugo active) can sustain whatever injury Itachi dishes out. If he tries to go for the OOC decapitation method then there's a slight chance she will survive. Katsuyu can play tank while Tsunade rests inside the GIANT slug and regains consciousness. There isn't much Itachi can do at that point other than drain himself or meditate until she comes back out to fight.


> So even if we assume that Byakugou is active before she is hit by Tsukiyomi, and even if it can heal Tsukiyomi, unless the healing is pretty much instant, she is getting decapitated when she is vulnerable.


Even if that does happen she still has a chance to survive. Not to mention the fact that Tsunade with knowledge has a good chance to avoid Tsukuyomi.





> Stopped reading here. What the fuck are you talking about man ?


Im talking about her closing in on someone who casually outranks Itachi in every aspect:read the manga.
Then again..................... there was an unknown amount of time lapse. It can be 10 minutes, 1 hour, or 3 hours until Tsunade closed in on Madara.

Let's make this simple though because this debate has gotten a bit out of hand.

*Spoiler*: _Itachis Arsenal_ 




Shuriken
Katon/Suiton
Clones Feints
Sharingan Genjutsu
Tsukuyomi x1
Amaterasu x2
Susanoo.



*Spoiler*: _Tsunades Arsenal_ 




Katsuyu - Zesshi Nensan
Sozo Saisei / Byakugo
One-Shot Punches
Experience with Susanoo.



*Spoiler*: _Itachis Arsenal applied._ 



Itachi uses Shuriken: Tanked/Not a problem.

Itachi uses Katon/Suiton: Tanked/Not a problem.

Clone Feints: Waste of Itachis precious chakra though it's not like he's aware of that.
Tanked/Not a problem

Sharingan Genjutsu: Brilliant Chakra control & partner method if you want to be anal.
Tanked/Not a problem

Tsukuyomi: It is Healed.(Again)
Tanked/Not a problem

Amaterasu: Healed by Byakugo and removed by Katsuyu or Wasted on Katsuyu who then splits into hundreds of pieces or the Ay method.
Tanked/Almost a problem

Itachis Susanoo:Not a problem.



*Spoiler*: _Tsunades Arsenal Applied_ 



Tsunade summons Katsuyu and full sized Zesshi Nensan is fired: Itachi is forced to use Susanoo (V2 or above) right at the get-go and whether you like it or not its going to exhaust him a lot faster. If Tsunade lets Itachi run around she's more likely to get worn out and when he pulls out Susanoo, if she's in an exhausted state, Itachi might win though she doesnt need to do that since Zesshi Nensan can force him into Susanoo.
Tanked/A problem since he must now maintain V2+ for the rest of the fight of he will get blasted by ZN.

Tsunade activates Byakugo/Sozo Saisei: Anything Itachi throws at her will get healed.
A huge problem

Tsunade lands a single Monster One-Shot Punch: Itachi dies.
Not Tanked/A huge problem.


Okay now obviously Tsunade won't tank everything because she can dodge/avoid a few of those attacks however in the event she is hit by any of them she will be fine. Itachi however must rely on never being hit ever and avoiding every attack including Zesshi Nensan and using Susanoo to protect himself from Zesshi Nensan creates an opening for Tsunade. While Katsuyu keeps using Zesshi Nensan to try and melt his Susanoo Tsunade can try to get around Yata. Not that it isn't a long-shot but Tsunade should win this High Difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Turrin (Aug 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The force was enough to crack Susano'O, so it was at least the equivalent of Tsunade's initial hit, which sent Madara flying quite a distance see the AoE of C4
> You can see he is roughly 15 -20 meters away from the point of impact right after Tsunade hits him.


Tsunade's initial hit cracked Susano'o way more than Ei's blow, like way more



> In this case for you to be right, the push from Mei's water dragon should be equal to A's impact, which I highly doubt. Even if it initially was, right after it launched Madara from its mouth, Madara would start to slow down, so by the time A hit him, Madara didn't have the momentum when he had when the water dragon initially pushed him. see the AoE of C4


Madara momentum backwards was enhanced by the force of Tsunade's initial hit (which was > Ei's) + Mei water dragon (+ possibly Madara own Katon). Even if he lost some of that force (though he shouldn't have lost much as all of these moves were made in rapid succession), i'm completely willing to believe that the combined force of Tsunade's punch + Mei's Water dragon (+ possibly Madara's Katon) was enough to offset Ei's punch.



> Eitherway it was clearly a combined hit from Mei(because you can clearly see the water dragon launching Madara out of its mouth with a toungle like thing), A and Tsunade.


Yeah and no one is doubting it was a combination attack, what I doubt is that ether Mei's Water Dragon or Ei's blow somehow empowered Tsunade's attack. Rather Mei's and Ei's moves served different purposes. Mei's Water Dragon countered Madara's Katon and Ei's blow stopped Madara's movements allowing Tsunade a free kick. But it was Tsunade's kick alone that busted Susano'o.



> The point is, Madara can land a hit on Tsunade with the most basic ribcage Susano'O when he wanted to.
> I never said he did. I am just saying that outmanuvering Tsunade and landing a hit on her doesn't take more than using V1-V2 Susano'O.


A point that was never in contention to begin w/



> Based on how Kage performed against Madara as unit, and based on how they were performing against 5 clones individually.


And as I asked you before when did we see a Gokage perform worse against Madara's V2-Susano'o than they did against Madara's V3 Susano'o Clones? 



> So there is nothing special those 5 clones did that Madara individually couldn't.


This statement makes no sense, because of course Madara individually is stronger than his clones, that's not the point in contention here; the point here is whether or not Madara's V2-Susano'o is > 5 V3-Legged-Susano'o wielded by the clones. We are strictly comparing Susano'o.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 24, 2016)

Only comment here is somehow CS boosts sasuke katon but hashirama DNa which have been directly stated in the manga to boost abilities suddenly doesn't boost Madara katon 

Though I must say sounds like trolling when one can claim sasuke katon can be compared to Madara katon 

I wonder would one compare Zabuza water dragon to kisame giant water shark bomb ?


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 24, 2016)

That awkward moment when Obito believed that an inexperienced MS user could/have the potential to weaken the Gokage's so much that he could capture them.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> oh geez. Ill try to keep my magination under control, sorry. I mistook Sasukes Enton for an Amaterasu and I thought he used Sharingan Genjutsu on a Samurai though I quickly realized I was mistaken: anyway changing 1 Amaterasu to Enton and sacrificing one Sharingan Genjutsu doesn't really change much. I never meant to say Sasuke used a second Chidori.



I already posted and explained these.



> Its beyond safe to say: "Sasuke was using multiple MS techniques & tanking multiple attacks, all while maintaining Susanoo.


That wasn't what you initially said.
I take that as a concession in any case. Thanks for being mature about it.



> time "being short" and the fact that he was "taking meds" doesn't put him in a "deathbed". Itachi was sick but nothing suggests he was walking around in constant agony other than your own bias interpretation of the manga.


So a guy who is short on time(meaning he'll die soon), using medication to keep himself alive, dies shortly after exhausting himself.
What do you understand from that ?



> What?? The damage he sustained from those attacks was absolutely legitimate. He took damage from those attacks. Do you really think he was just tanking them with no damage like fucking Jubito or Orochimaru would? Even Mei comments on Sasukes condition



How does an attack hurt him without being able to breach Susano'O ?
You are either trolling, or being stubborn or don't know how Susano'O works.
The only attack that breached Susano'O and landed on Sasuke was A's hit. The rest of the attacks never reached Sasuke through Susano'O.
I'll need you to concede this point.



> .Id hardly call that "midway" he didn't have any blood coming from his mouth until he used Susanoo at the absolute end of the battle.


see the AoE of C4
Look I warned you. I won't reply to you anymore if you expect me to spoon feed you even the most basic information.
This debate is over.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Tsunade's initial hit cracked Susano'o way more than Ei's blow, like way more


Nah, you are nitpicking.


> Madara momentum backwards was enhanced by the force of Tsunade's initial hit (which was > Ei's) + Mei water dragon (+ possibly Madara own Katon). Even if he lost some of that force (though he shouldn't have lost much as all of these moves were made in rapid succession),


Its called physics,  everything loses momentum unless they keep accelearting. And his top speed was the moment Tsunade hit him.



> i'm completely willing to believe that the combined force of Tsunade's punch + Mei's Water dragon (+ possibly Madara's Katon) was enough to offset Ei's punch.


Then you believe wrong.



> Yeah and no one is doubting it was a combination attack, what I doubt is that ether Mei's Water Dragon or Ei's blow somehow empowered Tsunade's attack. Rather Mei's and Ei's moves served different purposes. Mei's Water Dragon countered Madara's Katon and Ei's blow stopped Madara's movements allowing Tsunade a free kick. But it was Tsunade's kick alone that busted Susano'o.


Mei used 2 suitons, one of them stopped the katon, and the other one picked and elevated Madara's Susano'o and launched it towards A. So Mei's suiton enhanced A's hit, and in turn A's hit enhanced Tsunade's.
I explained the physics behind it with the baseball analogy, I won't bother doing it again.



> And as I asked you before when did we see a Gokage perform worse against Madara's V2-Susano'o than they did against Madara's V3 Susano'o Clones?


I didn't say they performed worse. Its hard to know how they performed against the clones because it was offpaneled. But it seemed like they were able to hold their own except for Mei for some time.

What I said  was that Madara with a lower level of Susano'O was putting pressure on them when they were a unit and the only time they achieved something significant against him as a unit was when at least 3 of them combined their power. That was earlier in the fight too, meaning they were in better condition.
So it makes no sense for them to be able to hold their own against 5 clones with higher level of Susano'O unless they are significantly weaker than the original.



> This statement makes no sense, because of course Madara individually is stronger than his clones, that's not the point in contention here; the point here is whether or not Madara's V2-Susano'o is > 5 V3-Legged-Susano'o wielded by the clones. We are strictly comparing Susano'o.



Then I have to repeat myself.
"I am just saying that outmanuvering Tsunade and landing a hit on her doesn't take more than using V1-V2 Susano'O. So there is nothing special those 5 clones did that Madara individually couldn't."

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 24, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I already posted and explained these.


No you didn't explain anything. You just said: 





> Now please tell me. Where is the 2nd Amaterasu, where is the 2nd sharingan genjutsu, where is second chidori and where is his 3rd chidori katana? Where are the multiple hits he sustained ?


So I showed you the hits he sustained & conceded to the Sharingan Genjutsu/Amaterasu x2.


> That wasn't what you initially said. I take that as a concession in any case. Thanks for being mature about it.


I did jazz it up a bit but it is still the same thing. 





			
				HandfullofNaruto said:
			
		

> Sasuke is literally tanking multiple attacks and dishing out multiple MS Jutsu and maintaining Susanoo the entire time.


unless you're referring to something else in which case I'm going to need you to elaborate.


> So a guy who is short on time(meaning he'll die soon), using medication to keep himself alive, dies shortly after exhausting himself. What do you understand from that ?


Im not denying that his sickness played a part in his death but I don't think he just would have died that day hands down. Chakra Exhaustion should have played a part. So a guy who is short on time and using medication to keep himself alive, gets out of his hospital bed, rips out the iv, pops a shit-ton of pills, goes to fight his little brother with literally everything he has left inside, gets exhausted and dies. Now tell me, in this scenario with a "deathbed" Itachi did his sickness kick in and kill him right then and there because his time was short? If he stayed in his imaginary hospital bed would be have just died that day anyway? I'm not denying that his sickness played a role I just don't belive it was the main reason he died, like "oh shit here comes my sickness, I guess I didn't overdo it, I could just keep going but this damn sickness of mine, I guess today was the day that I was supposed to die." I really don't understand that logic man. 





> How does an attack hurt him without being able to breach Susano'O?


There are plenty of attacks that don't need to breech Susanoo to be effective. Sound based techniques, Poison Gas techniques etc..
Tanking Raiger Bomb with Susanoo escaped death but you think he received zero damage? Tanking the combination attack would have destroyed him so he stepped it up to V2 so he wouldn't die but we can safely assume that he received zero damage when he did that. Meis lava + Hiramekarei release left him lying on the ground, down on all fours but his Susanoo wasn't breeched so there was no damage there. Futon Komu no Jutsu. His skin started melting. Yea, Sasuke didn't get hit only once. Sasuke did maintain Susanoo for his entire battle. Sasuke used multiple MS techniques. Point in case being Sasukes performance with MS is equivalent, if not surpassing Itachis. Until the end of their battles of course, which we've already discussed. I'm not even factoring the pain/injury sustained from using Susanoo & MS techniques.





> You are either trolling, or being stubborn or don't know how Susano'O works.


Definitely stubborn, like any good protagonist should be. 


> The only attack that breached Susano'O and landed on Sasuke was A's hit. The rest of the attacks never reached Sasuke through Susano'O.


Therefore no damage was taken??? Therefore none of those attacks had effect? Therefore Sasuke stayed in the exact same shape his entire battle and wasn't injured even in the slightest? (Except for Ays chop.)





> I'll need you to concede this point.


Im going to have to say no on this one.


> [LINKHL]57114[/LINKHL]
> Look I warned you. I won't reply to you anymore if you expect me to spoon feed you even the most basic information.


I genuinely thought you were joking when I read this. That is the end of the battle. Sasuke is prepping Kirin. *Itachi just used all of his Jutsu bar Susanoo. It's the end of the battle. It's not mid-way at all.* I will admit that my choice of words were bit off-putting "absolute end" though I figured you'd catch my drift. 





> This debate is over.


If this is really how you want to end it, I'm not going to stop you. However you should know that I'll gladly take this as a concession.

Also don't respond to this post unless you plan to finish responding to the rest of my other response. That is all.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> , I'm not going to stop you. However you should know that I'll gladly take this as a concession.
> 
> Also don't respond to this post unless you plan to finish responding to the rest of my other response. That is all.



Your whole argument is based on misinformation. 

-snip-

And if you base your words and arguments on missing bits then they are by default worthless. So at some point the debate derives from its course and turns into a lecture and I'm forced into finding the scans and spoon feeding you every bit of information you missed. Thats a massive loss of time for me. 

-snip-

Have a good day sir.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 2


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 24, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Your whole argument is based on misinformation. You aren't eligible to talk about of most of the stuff you throw in as arguments because you either didn't read certain parts of the manga properly, or didn't read them at all. And if you base your words and arguments on missing bits then they are by default worthless. So at some point the debate derives from its course and turns into a lecture and I'm forced into finding the scans and spoon feeding you every bit of information you missed. Thats a massive loss of time for me. You may like the attention I'm giving you, but thats not what I signed up for.
> Have a good day sir.


If you're that much of an elitist & can't overlook the small things (Zesshi Nensan debate / Sasuke Susanoo usage vs Itachi Susanoo usage / Amaterasu + Sharingan Genjutsu x2) then I don't blame you for ending this debate (even though through a simple exchange of posts we were able to come to an agreement on all of those) however (who knows you could have even won this debate if you kept trying.) I feel that you should know that a huge majority of posters (it's not as if I'm opposed to Itachi winning this battle after all I did say it's a high difficulty fight which means it can go either way) on this forum are not only heavily bias (if you're willing to give up on this debate in that manner..... than it honestly just feels like you can't substantiate your arguments.) but quite often completely wrong or mistaken so you're in for a rough ride.

I feel like I'm debating with @IzayaOrihara when if he were supporting Itachi. You have a similar vocabulary & way of debating. Though Izaya has more sass, witticism, knowledge and whatnot. He's also way better at presenting evidence in a simple and concise mannner. It takes him one-two posts to solo a thread. Anyway if there is one thing I learned from @IzayaOrihara it's: Either address my entire post with evidence from the manga or I'll be accepting your concession.


HandfullofNaruto said:


> oh geez. Ill try to keep my magination under control, sorry. I mistook Sasukes Enton for an Amaterasu and I thought he used Sharingan Genjutsu on a Samurai though I quickly realized I was mistaken: anyway changing 1 Amaterasu to Enton and sacrificing one Sharingan Genjutsu doesn't really change much. I never meant to say Sasuke used a second Chidori.
> 
> Its beyond safe to say: "Sasuke was using multiple MS techniques & tanking multiple attacks, all while maintaining Susanoo.His time "being short" and the fact that he was "taking meds" doesn't put him in a "deathbed". Itachi was sick but nothing suggests he was walking around in constant agony other than your own bias interpretation of the manga.Yea, okay. What?? The damage he sustained from those attacks was absolutely legitimate. He took damage from those attacks. Do you really think he was just tanking them with no damage like fucking Jubito or Orochimaru would? Even Mei comments on Sasukes condition.Id hardly call that "midway" he didn't have any blood coming from his mouth until he used Susanoo at the absolute end of the battle. You can do better than that dude, seriously."Its pretty evident that you are talking out of your ass, so please do yourself a favor and read the manga before you go into a debate. I'm really tired of spoonfeeding you basic information. I'll ignore your futher replies if you keep this up." lol Any chance it also had to do with chakra exhaustion?????? Of course you'll deny that and act as if it wasn't a factor but whatever it really doesn't change much.
> Quit comparing Tsunade to a doctor. A doctor also can't heal themselves:and Tsukuyomi is nothing more than Genjutsu you can't compare it to a tumor.  Other than the fact that she canonically heals herself better than she can heal others. Also the fact that she's healed the effects with a much shittier healing Jutsu.Yea, I don't think Tsunade stood there for 10 minutes considering the busy day she had ahead of her, becoming Hokage and all, let alone three hours.Because a sickly Orochimaru with no knowledge and the intent to take over a body got handled by Paralysis Genjutsu. Orochimarus Genjutsu resistance is terrible yet he moved around in Itachis Paralysis Genjutsu, someone who has chakra control to the extent that Tsunade does will handle Genjutsu without a problem. Tsunades hangovers pack a larger punch than that. Try again.
> ...





HandfullofNaruto said:


> No you didn't explain anything. You just said: So I showed you the hits he sustained & conceded to the Sharingan Genjutsu/Amaterasu x2.
> I did jazz it up a bit but it is still the same thing. unless you're referring to something else in which case I'm going to need you to elaborate.
> Im not denying that his sickness played a part in his death but I don't think he just would have died that day hands down. Chakra Exhaustion should have played a part. So a guy who is short on time and using medication to keep himself alive, gets out of his hospital bed, rips out the iv, pops a shit-ton of pills, goes to fight his little brother with literally everything he has left inside, gets exhausted and dies. Now tell me, in this scenario with a "deathbed" Itachi did his sickness kick in and kill him right then and there because his time was short? If he stayed in his imaginary hospital bed would be have just died that day anyway? I'm not denying that his sickness played a role I just don't belive it was the main reason he died, like "oh shit here comes my sickness, I guess I didn't overdo it, I could just keep going but this damn sickness of mine, I guess today was the day that I was supposed to die." I really don't understand that logic man. There are plenty of attacks that don't need to breech Susanoo to be effective. Sound based techniques, Poison Gas techniques etc..
> Tanking Raiger Bomb with Susanoo escaped death but you think he received zero damage? Tanking the combination attack would have destroyed him so he stepped it up to V2 so he wouldn't die but we can safely assume that he received zero damage when he did that. Meis lava + Hiramekarei release left him lying on the ground, down on all fours but his Susanoo wasn't breeched so there was no damage there. Futon Komu no Jutsu. His skin started melting. Yea, Sasuke didn't get hit only once. Sasuke did maintain Susanoo for his entire battle. Sasuke used multiple MS techniques. Point in case being Sasukes performance with MS is equivalent, if not surpassing Itachis. Until the end of their battles of course, which we've already discussed. I'm not even factoring the pain/injury sustained from using Susanoo & MS techniques.Definitely stubborn, like any good protagonist should be. Therefore no damage was taken??? Therefore none of those attacks had effect? Therefore Sasuke stayed in the exact same shape his entire battle and wasn't injured even in the slightest? (Except for Ays chop.)Im going to have to say no on this one.I genuinely thought you were joking when I read this. That is the end of the battle. Sasuke is prepping Kirin. *Itachi just used all of his Jutsu bar Susanoo. It's the end of the battle. It's not mid-way at all.* I will admit that my choice of words were bit off-putting "absolute end" though I figured you'd catch my drift. If this is really how you want to end it, I'm not going to stop you. However you should know that I'll gladly take this as a concession.
> ...


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 25, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If you're that much of an elitist & can't overlook the small things (Zesshi Nensan debate / Sasuke Susanoo usage vs Itachi Susanoo usage / Amaterasu + Sharingan Genjutsu x2) then I don't blame you for ending this debate (even though through a simple exchange of posts we were able to come to an agreement on all of those) however (who knows you could have even won this debate if you kept trying.) I feel that you should know that a huge majority of posters (it's not as if I'm opposed to Itachi winning this battle after all I did say it's a high difficulty fight which means it can go either way) on this forum are not only heavily bias (if you're willing to give up on this debate in that manner..... than it honestly just feels like you can't substantiate your arguments.) but quite often completely wrong or mistaken so you're in for a rough ride.
> 
> I feel like I'm debating with @IzayaOrihara when if he were supporting Itachi. You have a similar vocabulary & way of debating. Though Izaya has more sass, witticism, knowledge and whatnot. He's also way better at presenting evidence in a simple and concise mannner. It takes him one-two posts to solo a thread. Anyway if there is one thing I learned from @IzayaOrihara it's: Either address my entire post with evidence from the manga or I'll be accepting your concession.



-snip-

My remark about your incompetence wasn't an insult, I was just pointing out the honest truth. You lack the necessary knowldege to go in the deep waters with me. If you do then I'll point it out, call you on your bullshit and dismantle you in the blink of an eye.

Also the fact that you compared me to Izaya and claimed that he is better at presenting evidence allows me, and probably other posters who'll read this post, to immediately discard your opinion and not take anything you say at face value from now on.

-snip-

Reactions: Funny 1 | Creative 1


----------



## Turrin (Aug 25, 2016)

@Grimjow

That's not how momentum works. Yes Mei + Tsunade's hit probably enhanced Ei's, but since Ei was applying force in the opposite direction, Ei would have had to apply drastically more force than the combined might of Tsunade's hit and Mei's Water dragon to exude enough force in the opposite direction to enhance Tsunade's blow. I don't think anything suggests he applied that amount of force; if you wish to say otherwise prove it. If you can't prove it, which I know you can't, it's a matter of opinion as to why Tsunade's second hit did more damage than Tsunade's first hit; you think it's because Ei's hit enhanced Tsunade's strike and I think it's because Tsunade's strike was more powerful than her first (using a kick instead of a punch). So we'll have to agree to disagree. As I said before though even if Itachi's V2 can withstand a single strike from Tsunade, that's not a very reliable defense as Tsunade can easily deliver multiple strikes instead of relying on just one, I.E. a punch or kick combo.

As far the Susano'o thing goes, i'm not sure what your point is exactly, as I never said Madara needed more than V2-Susano'o to outmaneuver Tsunade and land a hit on her. That's irrelevant as landing a hit on Tsunade doesn't mean defeating her due to Byakugo-Regen. Rather I said Madara's V3-Susano'o clones could not take Tsunade down, I.E. kill or incapacitate her, which suggests to me that Itachi has a low chance of taking down Tsunade w/ his own V2/V3 Susano'o, as I do not think Itachi's V2/V3 Susano'o is better than 5 Legged V3-Susano'o.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2016)

Why do we assume tsunade punch = tsunade kick 
Kicks are way more powerful than punches but are inherently slower 
So tsunade kick did break through Madara rib cage 
But I don't see how that suggests it does anything to V3 or V4

We saw what her punch did to rib cage , I.e some cracks 
And her kick broke through 
The difference between both is significant but not so much so that one would suggest it would do anything more than crack V3
Considering her punch had no visible effect 

This debate has overly gone on too long 

As to the whole Bs comment from turrin on if Amaterasu was allowed he would sooner below log replacement would work 
That's funny because that still would t help tsunade get out of Itachi LoS so the technique can still be used . 

Also if sasuke couldn't manage to get out of Itachi loS tsunade stands zero chance of doing so


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Aug 25, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> -snip-
> My remark about your incompetence wasn't an insult, I was just pointing out the honest truth. You lack the necessary knowldege to go in the deep waters with me. If you do then I'll point it out, call you on your bullshit and dismantle you in the blink of an eye.
> Also the fact that you compared me to Izaya and claimed that he is better at presenting evidence allows me, and probably other posters who'll read this post, to immediately discard your opinion and not take anything you say at face value from now on.
> -snip-


My initial response was snipped so i deleted it because it kind of lost all its meaning after that anyway to make it short and a little too sweet: I'm sorry you feel that way, if you ever want to continue this debate I'll always be here. 

As it stands Tsunade > Itachi until Grimmjow addresses my previous posts.  Your fancy concession has been accepted.


----------



## Sapherosth (Aug 26, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Yeah Tsunade connects after Ei hits him, not at the same time.
> 
> 
> It was suppose to show the Gokage's team-work, Ei aided Tsunade by stoping Madara movement allowing Tsunade a free kick, he did not aid her by providing additional striking force.
> ...



Madara with ribcage was out playing Tsunade quite easily. 

The rest of the kage had to team up to even pose a threat to 1 rib cage.susano.... At least the real one.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Madara with ribcage was out playing Tsunade quite easily.
> 
> The rest of the kage had to team up to even pose a threat to 1 rib cage.susano.... At least the real one.


Because Madara was using other moves besides Rib-Cage Susano'o, moves that are far beyond what Itachi is capable off.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2016)

Turrin said:


> @Grimjow
> 
> That's not how momentum works.


Thats actually how it works.



> Yes Mei + Tsunade's hit probably enhanced Ei's, but since Ei was applying force in the opposite direction, Ei would have had to apply drastically more force than the combined might of Tsunade's hit and Mei's Water dragon to exude enough force in the opposite direction to enhance Tsunade's blow.


I explained why that assumpion is wrong.
By the time Mei's water dragon grabbed Madara and elevated it(mind you that is a different direction that he was sent towards meaning there was a shift in momentum already), he was already slowing down from Tsunade's punch, and by the time A hit it, he was losing momentum from the Dragon's launch. So A doesn't have to counter their exact momentum with his hit, thats not how it is calculated.



> I don't think anything suggests he applied that amount of force; if you wish to say otherwise prove it. If you can't prove it, which I know you can't, it's a matter of opinion as to why Tsunade's second hit did more damage than Tsunade's first hit; you think it's because Ei's hit enhanced Tsunade's strike and I think it's because Tsunade's strike was more powerful than her first (using a kick instead of a punch). So we'll have to agree to disagree. As I said before though even if Itachi's V2 can withstand a single strike from Tsunade, that's not a very reliable defense as Tsunade can easily deliver multiple strikes instead of relying on just one, I.E. a punch or kick combo.


I don't think the burden of the proof is on me here as the physics and my argument go side by side. You are the one claiming that basic rules of physics took no effect.
Even if you ignore the physics, from a narrative depiction, it took Mei, Tsunade and A(powered up by Onoki) to perform a combo to destroy Madara's one of weaker Susano'O forms, when he was completely dicking around.
So even if we completely ignore my argument, it more or less comes down to the same thing. It took combined efforts of 4 kage to be able to deliver a significant blow on Madara, something Tsuande would never be able to replicate on her own.



> *Rather I said Madara's V3-Susano'o clones could not take Tsunade down, I.E. kill or incapacitate her, which suggests to me that Itachi has a low chance of taking down Tsunade w/ his own V2/V3 Susano'o*, as I do not think Itachi's V2/V3 Susano'o is better than 5 Legged V3-Susano'o.



Madara was dicking around.
Clones are much weaker than the original
It was off paneled, there is no way of knowing how the clones were fighting.

We know for a fact that Itachi can karatechop Nagato and Asura's limbs in one go. And thats just with his bare hands. He can bisect Tsunade or remove limbs assuming Tsunade isn't much more durable than that. Which I think no one would argue against it.

"Madara's clones weren't able to, so Itachi can't do it" is not a substantial argument.
So I have to disagree with your assertion and unless you can show to me how Tsunade can reliable defend against that there is no way you can substantiate that argument.

A much better and decisive argument here is : "it took combined effort of 4 kage to be able to deliver a significant blow on Madara, which is something Tsunade can't replicate on her own."

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 26, 2016)

Does anyone need me to post a link going about explaining momentum ?
Lots of talk about it , not sure it's been educated discussions though 

What I would say though is based on the distance the rib cage travelled which was barely any , it would imply in order for tsunade to hit it in the opposite direction her force applied would have to exceed the one an amped up A used 

Which we know already cracked it 

Long story short , she can break rib cage on her own

However that means nothing at all as far as this match is concerned 

@Grimmjowsensei @Turrin

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2016)

In the manga she couldn't, so I wouldn't wager on that.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 26, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In the manga she couldn't, so I wouldn't wager on that.



Agreed nor would I 
Though it makes little difference 
We saw what happened when she struck V3... Nothing significant 

Anywayz this is the new jiriaya vs Itachi thread 
Who would have thought

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 27, 2016)

Not really. I could see where Jiraiya fans were coming from they had that one little quote from 10 years ago.
Tsunade front has nothing here. Itachi and Tsunade are leagues apart based on feats, hype and portrayal. I'm surprised that people want to debate this.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 2


----------



## TruestArtXI (Aug 27, 2016)

Tsunade fan club lmao this is stupider when people said tnsuade will jump up an punch Deidara out the sky and blitz him where Deidara has higher speed in data book that soloed whole fourm

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 4


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Sep 1, 2016)

@HandfullofNaruto I'm so proud of you. I don't even have to post here anymore because of all the hard work that you do.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


----------

