# Arceus vs Phoenix Force



## DarkLord Omega (Sep 4, 2011)

Scenario 1: Phoenix Force Jean Grey
Scenario 2: The Phoenix Force itself

Go!


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## Thor (Sep 4, 2011)

Phoenix cosmic awareness tells it to create a Maser Ball. GG Arceus.


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## Riddler (Sep 4, 2011)

Thor said:


> Phoenix cosmic awareness tells it to create a Maser Ball. GG Arceus.



Who needs a MB when you can have this? 

​


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 4, 2011)

FEAR will not work on Arceus. ExtremeSpeed is higher priority than Quick Attack and Arceus has a massively higher speed stat. As for the master ball.



Arceus >>> Palkia >>>>>>>>>>>> Master ball.


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

^

Hahahahha 

Rejected


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## KaiserWombat (Sep 4, 2011)

_Which_ Phoenix Jean Grey?

More importantly, _which_ Arceus?


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## DemongGodOfChaos (Sep 4, 2011)

Composite, probably.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 4, 2011)

Don't think it really matters which Arceus since they all have practically the same on screen feats, nothing beyond creating more dragons. The better questing is which version of the Creation Trio are we basing our estimates of Arceus' power off of. Because some of them come off as rather lame *cough*Special*cough* and others come of as stupidly overpowered *cough*anime*cough*. My favorite version is Diamond and Pearl Adventure.


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## DarkLord Omega (Sep 4, 2011)

idk, guess Composite would do. As for Arceus, his game/manga version since the anime is weak.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 4, 2011)

The anime version is the strongest based off of scaling Dialga and Palkia at full power with them casually crating a new universe within seconds. What we saw in the movie was a massively nerfed form.

[YOUTUBE]Zcgt5E7f5jI[/YOUTUBE]


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## KaiserWombat (Sep 4, 2011)

Though Movie Dialga at least was noted to be very clever in using his powers IIRC


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## DemongGodOfChaos (Sep 4, 2011)

Arceus had to be nerfed in order for the protagonists to possibly figure out why he's so pissed off.


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## DarkLord Omega (Sep 4, 2011)

That's cool if you want to use the anime version since he almost died by hitting a meteor


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## Riddler (Sep 4, 2011)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> FEAR will not work on Arceus. ExtremeSpeed is higher priority than Quick Attack and Arceus has a massively higher speed stat. As for the master ball.



Assuming this Arceus build has ExtremeSpeed 

PF uses meteors then


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## Lucaniel (Sep 4, 2011)

phonenix force is multiversal at its peak


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> phonenix force is multiversal at its peak



Not sure if serious... 

Phoenix force is massively inconsistent 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]




She's able to hold one universe


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## Lucaniel (Sep 4, 2011)

> Phoenix force is massively inconsistent





> phonenix force is multiversal* at its peak*



reading problems again?


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## Riddler (Sep 4, 2011)

Bender said:


> Not sure if serious...
> 
> Phoenix force is massively inconsistent



Bringing up "inconsistency" argument in a vs Arceus thread?


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## Lucaniel (Sep 4, 2011)

lol there is also that


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> reading problems again?



Show the scans that prove it's able to effect the multiverse.


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## EnigmaJ (Sep 4, 2011)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:
			
		

> The anime version is the strongest based off of scaling Dialga and Palkia at full power with them casually crating a new universe within seconds. What we saw in the movie was a massively nerfed form.



Game Version Arceus is probably right up there with the anime... It may even be stronger, since Dialga and Palkia were capable of resetting the universe without the help of the other in diamond/pearl.


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

Riddler said:


> Bringing up "inconsistency" argument in a vs Arceus thread?



What's wrong with that?  Phoenix force's showings are all over the place and it only makes sense that I ask for it to be verified.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 4, 2011)

EnigmaJ said:


> Game Version Arceus is probably right up there with the anime... It may even be stronger, since Dialga and Palkia were capable of resetting the universe without the help of the other in diamond/pearl.



I have no doubt the anime versions could do so given they've lived up to their gods of time and space title. Either should logically be able to big crunch the universe. Only reason they were both needed for Cyrus' plan is he wanted a brand spanking new one for some reason and you need time and space for that. DPA is still the best version. My god Dialga trolling the fuck out of Hareta over and over.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 4, 2011)

He said the entire Phoenix Force, not just Jean


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> He said the entire Phoenix Force, not just Jean



Yeah, I know. Still inconsistent.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 4, 2011)

i will admit, i can't get my hands on scans to conclusively prove that the force is multiversal. i do recall a narration/statement to that effect, and the implication of there being multiple phoenixes such as the ones vulcan saw in the WHR, who are all universal, that sort of thing

on the other hand

no phoenix force user was ever knocked out by a meteor


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## Thor (Sep 4, 2011)

Jean throws a sun at it. Sun>Meteor.


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> *i will admit, i can't get my hands on scans to conclusively prove that the force is multiversal.*
> 
> -snip-



Aside from the rest of your post thank you for being honest about admitting about your knowledge of the phoenix force.


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## Light (Sep 4, 2011)

The only reason Arceus was knocked out by that meteor was because he was missing his plates. He created a universe. That meteor was probably a universe buster or some shit.


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 4, 2011)

Bender said:


> Aside from the rest of your post thank you for being honest about admitting about your knowledge of the phoenix force.



He explicitly said he can't get scans.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 4, 2011)

bender's still reeling from the reading comprehension jab, you've got to let the little men have their shots sometimes


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 4, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> The only reason Arceus was knocked out by that meteor was because he was missing his plates. He created a universe. That meteor was probably a universe buster or some shit.




No, he had the vast majority of his power sealed away in another form. That meteor was just a meteor, Arceus had reduced himself from an immortal deity to a regular life form on some bizarre soul searching kick. Anime writers for you.


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## Light (Sep 4, 2011)

Oh so Arcy wasn't at fulll power at the time?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 4, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> Oh so Arcy wasn't at fulll power at the time?







Referring to Dialga and Palkia but it's rather easy to see the same applies to Arceus since Cyrus was using his power to control them.


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## DarkLord Omega (Sep 4, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> Oh so Arcy wasn't at fulll power at the time?



lol no he was at full power. All twelve of his plates were shown when he collided with the meteor.


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> He explicitly said he can't get scans.



I know and I'm saying that's another way of saying "that, that feat never happened" to me. I've been in a Phoenix force debate and no one ever divulged those scans. And as I said before they're inconsistent.

@Lucaniel

Stop being a child. I could care less about your nitpicking.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 4, 2011)

DarkLord Omega said:


> lol no he was at full power. All twelve of his plates were shown when he collided with the meteor.



No, he wasn't. Unless you think that meteor has the power to overwhelm 2 universal class deities. It was the entirety of the power he left himself, a mere fraction of his true self.


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## Light (Sep 4, 2011)

Bender if you don't care just respond.

Also I refuse to believe a normal meteor can harm a universal.


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

> Also I refuse to believe a normal meteor can harm a universal.



I never said anything about meteor being able to harm Phoenix force I just came to say PF ain't multiversal.


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## Light (Sep 4, 2011)

When did I say a meteor can harm the Pheonix Force? I'm talking about Arceus


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> When did I say a meteor can harm the Pheonix Force? I'm talking about Arceus





Crap my bad..


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## Thor (Sep 4, 2011)

Phoenix Force wins on account of having better feats.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 4, 2011)

More like Phoenix Force wins on account of actually having feats


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> More like Phoenix Force wins on account of actually having feats



lol lol lol


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## DestinyDestroyer (Sep 4, 2011)

Jean isn't a Multiversal, isn't she? I thought she was Universal at it's peak


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## Thor (Sep 4, 2011)

DestinyDestroyer said:


> Jean isn't a Multiversal, isn't she? I thought she was Universal at it's peak



You thought wrong.


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

DestinyDestroyer said:


> Jean isn't a Multiversal, isn't she? I thought she was Universal at it's peak



No she's universal.


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## Thor (Sep 4, 2011)

How so? She was affecting both the 616 Universe and the other Universe it became. Multi-versal.


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## Bender (Sep 4, 2011)

Thor said:


> How so? She was affecting both the 616 Universe and the other Universe it became. Multi-versal.



Post a scan of this?

I'm pretty sure that's a ripple effect.

She is however very essential in that SPECIFIC Universe where she does fit into creation, like the abstracts. When Rachel's mind was whole again, the Phoenix chose to leave this plane of existence -- since Rachel had bonded with the Phoenix, its powers were still Rachel's to command...even when the Phoenix departed from this plane of existence. 

I have the scans to prove it's not just gimee a couple mins my computers is acting shitty as usual.


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## xOmniDivineForcex25 (Sep 5, 2011)

If the legends about Arceus says the truth, then Phoenix Force will have quite the trouble.
But if it's all hyperbole, Arceus is going down, hard.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 5, 2011)

what the hell is this crap man y'all are kicking me and the phonix with the white crown was hold a dieing universe in her hand. I know i been bsing make stupid threads because i am bored out my mind but this one takes the cake of straight craziness


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Here's the scan:


*Spoiler*: __ 









ust because you have access to every universe doesn't mean you can affect every unverse.
The Nexus of all Realities, inside the Crystal allows you to travel between universes, it doesn't endow you with simultaneous existence across the Multiverse.

This is what the Multiverse looks like from the outside.
It's not just space where one universe transitions into another...but in fact, though the Multiverse can manifest itself as a whole...it exists apart from it's individual Universes with in the Cosmic Vortex.
Obviously this does not affect the relationship between aspect and totality.

See those little purple balls, that's where atleza is..and every little purple ball is the domain of the anchor...Yes...very much outside the Multiverse...the Multiverse is seperated into Universes which are the Bigger balls obviously...anything outside the bigger balls is untouched by space or time.




Mkraan crystal was a Universal Threat. And it was then and it is now.

Through the Nexus of all Realities, the Crystal can allow travel between universes, but opening the Crystal could cause the mass of the neutron galaxy inside to suck in the entire universe and potentially cause a chain-reaction across the multiverse, destroying all universes in existence.

And when Phoenix repaired this on panel it was a Universal threat, just like it is now. It "could" cause a chain reaction.


To further prove the Phoenix force isn't multiversal here's the origin of the multiverse


*Spoiler*: __ 









Not a single mention of the phoenix force

So with all due respect I ask that we never put "multiversal" and phoenix force" in the same sentence. Very far from being on that level I'm afraid.

However, this does not mean that I don't like the phoenix force.


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## Bioness (Sep 5, 2011)

Here is your Multiversal Jean Grey proof, now shut it! Arceus dies horribly.


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Bioness said:


> Here is your Multiversal Jean Grey proof, now shut it! Arceus dies horribly.



What?

That's not multiversal proof. It was doing the bidding of LT.


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## Bioness (Sep 5, 2011)

"*It also knows that for the sake of the Multiverse, it must today heed The Tribunal 's wishes.*"

Any attempt at argument after that statement is just blatant denial and stupidity.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 5, 2011)

what the hell is going on in here man?????


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Bioness said:


> "*It also knows that for the sake of the Multiverse, it must today heed The Tribunal 's wishes.*"
> 
> Any attempt at argument after that statement is just blatant denial and stupidity.



If that's so then how do you explain the scan I posted above of the origin of the multiverse? The Phoenix force is nowhere in there.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 5, 2011)

Bender said:


> If that's so then how do you explain the scan I posted above of the origin of the multiverse? The Phoenix force is nowhere in there.


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)




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## Bioness (Sep 5, 2011)

Bender said:


> If that's so then how do you explain the scan I posted above of the origin of the multiverse? The Phoenix force is nowhere in there.



They left that information out, stuff can be retconed, they forgot, the phoenix force existed before the multiverse, etc.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 5, 2011)

Bioness said:


> They left that information out, stuff can be retconed, they forgot, the phoenix force existed before the multiverse, etc.



that's why they have so many of them


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Bioness said:


> They left that information out, stuff can be retconed, they forgot, the phoenix force existed before the multiverse, etc.



Can you divulge complete proof of this?

Much of it is inconsistent as a friend.


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## Bioness (Sep 5, 2011)

The burden of proof is on you, I provided a clear scan showing that the Phoenix Force power in the hands of a human is a threat to the Multiverse. And of course the actual Phoenix Force is able to utilize the power more efficiently, however beings with that much power would probably not try to destroy a bunch of universes with it unless it needed to.

As for proof, the stuff I listed happens all the time, Authrors forget, stuff gets changed.

As for proof the Phoenix Force existed before the Multiverse or at least the current universe I can give you. Look at Galactus, he is the sole survivor of the previous Universe, and only because the Phoenix Force allowed him to live.


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Bioness said:


> The burden of proof is on you



I've already given my proof and there was a scan before the whole origin story and the "The Watcher" identified "The Phoenix force" as universal.




> As for proof the Phoenix Force existed before the Multiverse or at least the current universe I can give you. Look at Galactus, he is the sole survivor of the previous Universe, and only because the Phoenix Force allowed him to live.



Phoenix NEVER destroyed and remade the Multiverse...like the Ultimate Nullifier did.

Phoenix NEVER created a Universe...like Cosmic Cubes did...like Living Tribunal did...amongst others.

Phoenix NEVER Remade/Restructured a Universe...like Infinity Gauntlet did...like HOTU did....she Repaired one which is far lesser feat.


Phoenix NEVER destroyed and remade the Multiverse...like the Ultimate Nullifier did.

Phoenix NEVER created a Universe...like Cosmic Cubes did...like Living Tribunal did...amongst others.


The problem is that Pheonix's mythology contradicts the mythos of Galactus, LT, and the other cosmics. Marvel has a problem keeping its stories straight. But then again, since when is that new ?


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## Heavenly King (Sep 5, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.” Later, it encountered the malevolent Le Bete Noir and trapped it in the center of a still-cooling planet Earth. The Force was drawn back to Earth when it was awakened to reality by Feron, a sorcerer from an alternate Earth who had traveled with his master Necrom to a tower on Earth-616 to witness an alignment of dimensional interfaces. The Force joined with Feron, allowing itself to be shaped by his dreams into the form of a giant fiery bird and experiencing a spectrum of new sensations. At the moment of the alignment, Feron bade the Force to project the essence of the tower throughout the multiverse, so that it existed on every plane of reality simultaneously, creating an energy matrix. Necrom sought to access the matrix to allow him to compress all alternate Earths into a singularity, the energy released from which would endow him with godlike power, and to that end he tore out the portion of the Force that had bonded to Feron. In agonized confusion over the violation of its essence, the Force fled. Necrom bound the stolen Force with a portion of his own essence, and left it to incubate in a corpse he dubbed the Anti-Phoenix.


More on Marvel.com:


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Heavenly King said:


> Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force *is a child of the universe*. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the ?Big Bang.? Later, it encountered the malevolent Le Bete Noir and trapped it in the center of a still-cooling planet Earth. The Force was drawn back to Earth when it was awakened to reality by Feron, a sorcerer from an alternate Earth who had traveled with his master Necrom to a tower on Earth-616 to witness an alignment of dimensional interfaces. The Force joined with Feron, allowing itself to be shaped by his dreams into the form of a giant fiery bird and experiencing a spectrum of new sensations. At the moment of the alignment, Feron bade the Force to project the essence of the tower throughout the multiverse, so that it existed on every plane of reality simultaneously, creating an energy matrix. Necrom sought to access the matrix to allow him to compress all alternate Earths into a singularity, the energy released from which would endow him with godlike power, and to that end he tore out the portion of the Force that had bonded to Feron. In agonized confusion over the violation of its essence, the Force fled. Necrom bound the stolen Force with a portion of his own essence, and left it to incubate in a corpse he dubbed the Anti-Phoenix.




Even if there was more evidence presented I'm still dead set on calling the PF "Multiversal". My bad if I missed out on a few parts I'm really sleepy atm.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Sep 5, 2011)

Bioness said:


> The burden of proof is on you, I provided a clear scan showing that the Phoenix Force power in the hands of a human is a threat to the Multiverse.



You don't have to wield multiversal power to be a threat to the multiverse.


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## Bioness (Sep 5, 2011)

The Living Tribunal wouldn't appear for something involving a single universe though.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 5, 2011)

iight i am to tired for this stuff off to bed i go


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## DarkLord Omega (Sep 5, 2011)

Bender said:


> Can you divulge complete proof of this?
> 
> Much of it is inconsistent as a friend.


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

^

Dude even Id (creator of one of Phoenix Force's respect threads on KMC and mod on OBD) agrees it's inconsistent.

Phoenix Force is a universal threat and nothing else.

However, it still wins this fight since Arceus can't hit it with anything powerful enough.


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## Bioness (Sep 5, 2011)

Sigh... why is it hard to accept the Phoenix Force as Multiversal, I mean there are different levels of Multiversal, like Arceus is low multiversal, but something like Anti Monitor is far above that...


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## Light (Sep 5, 2011)

Arceus is universal


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## Bioness (Sep 5, 2011)

Aceus can control the universe from his dimension and each of the God Pokemon have their own dimension that works with the universe, and them able to make universes whenever they want makes Arceus low multiversal, meaning power of more than single universe.


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Bioness said:


> Sigh... why is it hard to accept the Phoenix Force as Multiversal



Because it's inconsistent and I have yet to be presented any evidence of multiversal feats.

Also this:



Contains solid proof of Phoenix lacking multiversal feats. Plus, if it was then it would be able to defeat the ultimate nullifier. 

The Phoenix comes from a multiversal source inside the Mykran crystal that exists in all realities but whatever incarnation it resides in is only universal.

Also the Phoenix being noticed by Living Tribunal means nothing since a lot of beings have been noticed by LT.


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## Riddler (Sep 5, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> Arceus is universal



Depends on how you interpret this:


*Spoiler*: __ 



​



As for Multiversal Phoenix Force,

Here, PF projects her power throughout the Multiverse:



*Spoiler*: __ 



​



Here, fucking LT recognizes Multiversal scope to PF's power:



*Spoiler*: __ 



​



Here, PF is specifically stated to exist in more than one universe, like Eternity:


*Spoiler*: __ 



​


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Riddler said:


> Depends on how you interpret this:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Read the scan again, it was the tower's power she was projecting not HER power.



*Spoiler*: __ 



​






> Here, fucking LT recognizes Multiversal scope to PF's power:



Irrelevant. As I said before LT recognizes lots of deities powers.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's because there are multiple users. Like the Cuckoos.

Entity within the White Hot Room: Multiversal.
Phoenix Force Manifestation: Universal
Phoenix Force Manifestation + Avatar: ???? - Universal. (It depends on how competent the host is, and if the physical body can withstand its power).


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## Light (Sep 5, 2011)

Riddler said:


> Depends on how you interpret this:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I determine that as an hour glass.


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## Riddler (Sep 5, 2011)

Bender said:


> Read the scan again, it was the tower's power she was projecting not HER power.



If you throw a rock to the other side of the river, which power is being used? Yours or the rock's?



Bender said:


> Irrelevant. As I said before LT recognizes lots of deities powers.



He does not deem them all to be relevant on a multiversal scale. Read the scans.



Bender said:


> That's because there are multiple users. Like the Cuckoos.
> 
> Entity within the White Hot Room: Multiversal.
> Phoenix Force Manifestation: Universal
> Phoenix Force Manifestation + Avatar: ???? - Universal. (It depends on how competent the host is, and if the physical body can withstand its power).



Where is it said that only a universal manifestation of PF is being used in this thread?


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Riddler said:


> If you throw a rock to the other side of the river, which power is being used? Yours or the rock's?



Regardless, the scan says that phoenix is using the tower's power.




> He does not deem them all to be relevant on a multiversal scale. Read the scans.



I have and seen stories where he humors other beings.




> Where is it said that only a universal manifestation of PF is being used in this thread?



I was laying out the basics

PF + Jean is universal


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## Riddler (Sep 5, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> I determine that as an hour glass.



It's the Time-Space Axis in Michina Town, a device able to mirror the movements of Palkia's, Dialga's, and Giratina's dimensions. It's also a representation of the Pokemon universe/multiverse, with its spheres:

Green = Realspace

Teal = Reverse World

Blue = Time

Purple = Space

Orange = Arceus dimension

Now, some people see the different and separate spheres as evidence that Pokeverse is a low tier multiverse.

An argument for the "different universes thesis" is the fact Arceus's dimension alone contains galaxies in it (see ending credits for the movie)


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## Light (Sep 5, 2011)

Yes but all those dimensions Arceus created existed in one plane. There is no evidence to suggest Arceus's dimensions exist on other universes too.


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## Riddler (Sep 5, 2011)

Bender said:


> Regardless, the scan says that phoenix is using the tower's power.



No, it says "_called on the phoenix avatar to project the essence of the tower through the multiverse_".



Bender said:


> I have and seen stories where he humors other beings.



You force me to repeat myself: He does not deem them all to be *relevant on a multiversal scale*.



Bender said:


> I was laying out the basics
> 
> PF + Jean is universal



The OP says nothing about PF + Jean. If I start a thread using Eternity, you're not gonna show up making a case based on the limitations of an M-Body are you?



ShineMonkey said:


> Yes but all those dimensions Arceus created existed in one plane. There is no evidence to suggest Arceus's dimensions exist on other universes too.



No, the point being used it that each of those "dimensions" is a universe per se.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 5, 2011)

Aside from the fact that Arceus dimension exists separate from the actual universe and has multiple galaxies in it say hello to universe #2:


*Spoiler*: __ 









Yes, the anime went there.




Riddler said:


> No, the point being used it that each of those "dimensions" is a universe per se.



They're actually the abstract concepts of space, time, antimatter, and I guess existence. Newton calls Dialga's dimension "time" and Palkia's "space" and we actually see time travel go through Dialga's dimension.


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## DarkLord Omega (Sep 5, 2011)

Bender said:


> Because it's inconsistent and I have yet to be presented any evidence of multiversal feats.
> 
> Also this:
> 
> ...



That same thread at the last page, Id said the force is multiversal


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## Bender (Sep 6, 2011)

^

Hmm whaddya know...


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## Artful Lurker (Sep 6, 2011)

Phoenix teleports his plates away then throws a meteor at him


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