# Suigetsu vs Kimimaro



## Rocky (Nov 27, 2015)

*Location:* Grass Field
*Distance:* 10m
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC

SI: Sick Kimimaro

SII: Healthy Kimimaro


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## Ghost (Nov 27, 2015)

Suigetsu creates that water bubble around Kimi's head like he did with Juugo.

Suigetsu wins no diff.

Or just blitzes and shoots a water bullet through Kimi's eye socket.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 27, 2015)

^...Kimimaru is literally better than suigetsu in every way but this is a hard rock paper scissor counter.


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## Ghost (Nov 27, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> ^...Kimimaru is literally better than suigetsu in every way but this is a hard rock paper scissor counter.



Sorry, but Suigetsu wouldn't struggle with injured part 1 Genins.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 27, 2015)

I don't know. He is almost untouchable but his offense is lacking. I can't see gaara or rock lee fighting him but it comes down to that rock paper scissor thing. Anyone with lightning element is a free win on him.


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## Ghost (Nov 27, 2015)

Suigetsu clashing with Kisame is more than enough to put him tiers above part 1 Genins.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 27, 2015)

Unless Kimi can burst a water bubble on his head via some bones he is losing this one. Suigetsu is a terrible matchup for straightforward CQC specialists. He might even drop Base Gai with that cheap move.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 27, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Suigetsu creates that water bubble around Kimi's head like he did with Juugo.



I think if being buried in pressurized sand 200 meters below the surface didn't suffocate Kimimaro, then a two foot bubble wouldn't either. He can just fuse with a spear to escape.​


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## Bonly (Nov 27, 2015)

Suigetsu doesn't have what it take to hurt Kimi for the most part while Kimi can't hurt Suigetsu so yeah. Either Suigetsu drowns Kimi eventually or Kimi outlast Suigetsu which he might have a shot at if he's healthy


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## Lord Trollbias (Nov 27, 2015)

Suigetsu is such a horrible matchup for CQCs so Kimi is screwed on this one.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 27, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> I think if being buried in pressurized sand 200 meters below the surface didn't suffocate Kimimaro, then a two foot bubble wouldn't either. He can just fuse with a spear to escape.​


Gaara was _planning_ to bury Kimimaro 200 meters below the ground. Kimi used Sawarabi no Mai just a couple of moments after being completely submerged. I doubt Gaara can pull someone 200 meters underground in a couple of seconds. And I also doubt that Sawarabi no Mai can sprout  200+ meters long bones.


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## Matty (Nov 27, 2015)

Suigetsu is trash honestly. Nothing more than a Jonin level opponent at best. He wins this because Kimi can't do much to his lame ass haxxed ability but he is clearly the better shinobi


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## Alex Payne (Nov 27, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Suigetsu is trash honestly. Nothing more than a Jonin level opponent at best. He wins this because Kimi can't do much to his lame ass haxxed ability but he is clearly the better shinobi


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## Amol (Nov 27, 2015)

Suigetsu is legit better ninja than Kimimaro. 
He tanked a Biijudama ffs(with lots of water I know but still).
Well with his logia abilities he beats Kimimaro.


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## Shanal (Nov 27, 2015)

Suigetsu no diffs. Kimimaro has no manga knowledge on Suigetsu and would naturally try to blitz or at least fight him in close combat. Suigetsu forms a blob around Kimmimaro and drowns him.

Unlike Sand, Kimimaro can't remove liquid from his head and neither can he stay w/o oxygen for much longer period of time, he'd faint within a minute or so. Suigetsu is immune to everything Kimimaro does.

Suigetsu trashes.



matty1991 said:


> Suigetsu is trash honestly. Nothing more than a Jonin level opponent at best. He wins this because Kimi can't do much to his lame ass haxxed ability but he is clearly the better shinobi



A trash who managed to interrupt KB's and Ei's blitz from like 30-50 meters away and managed to leave a huge dent on the ground simply by swinging his blade down at an opponent (unboosted too, plus KB cushioned his attack before it damaged ground)

A trash who managed to not only physically overpower KB in BM but also tank a Bijuudama point blank range.

A trash who managed to easily blitz Spiral Zetsu ,the same being who pressured Hiruzen along with thousands of fodder shinobi. 

A trash who is clearly an Elite Jounin and has an ability which antis him to 70% of attacks, and pretty much destroy anyone in CQC.


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## Ghost (Nov 27, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Suigetsu is trash honestly. Nothing more than a Jonin level opponent at best.



And Kimi is Chuunin level fodder


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## Matty (Nov 27, 2015)

Ghost said:


> And Kimi is Chuunin level fodder



Stop it. We all know that Kimi is close to Nagato


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## Alex Payne (Nov 27, 2015)

_Kaguya_ Kimimaro. He is closer to Kaguya than Nagato is


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## Matty (Nov 27, 2015)

/tenchar


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 27, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Suigetsu is trash honestly. Nothing more than a Jonin level opponent at best. He wins this because Kimi can't do much to his lame ass haxxed ability but he is clearly the better shinobi



this. kimi is more skilled but suigetsus haxx ability wins


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Lord Aizen said:


> this. kimi is more skilled but suigetsus haxx ability wins



Suigetsu literally have like much better speed feats than Kimi 

His strength feats w/o boost is still pretty good, Kimimaru is more into just tank and pierce.

Suigetsu's logia nature > Kimimaro's durability.


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## Narusplooge (Nov 28, 2015)

Personally, I think this fight is better than the rest. Kimiaru is probably the strongest. He wins with no difficulty. To be honest


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Narusplooge said:


> Personally, I think this fight is better than the rest. Kimiaru is probably the strongest. He wins with no difficulty. To be honest



Mind reminding me how Kimimaro would even manage to hurt Suigetsu?
Mind reminding me how Kimimaro would keep up with his speed again?
Mind reminding me how Kimimaro would defend against Suigetsu simply forming a blob of water around his head and drowning him to death anyway?


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## Narusplooge (Nov 28, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Mind reminding me how Kimimaro would even manage to hurt Suigetsu?
> Mind reminding me how Kimimaro would keep up with his speed again?
> Mind reminding me how Kimimaro would defend against Suigetsu simply forming a blob of water around his head and drowning him to death anyway?



He just would. U don't know anything. Read the MANGA.
Show me the feats


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Narusplooge said:


> He just would. U don't know anything. Read the MANGA.
> Show me the feats



We have a new troll on NF, guys!


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Suigetsu literally have like much better speed feats than Kimi
> 
> His strength feats w/o boost is still pretty good, Kimimaru is more into just tank and pierce.
> 
> Suigetsu's logia nature > Kimimaro's durability.



You said Kiminaro is faster than Gai. Then you say Suigestu is faster than Kimimaro. Are you kidding me...

Do you sincerely think Gai is slower than suigestu now....

As for the thread, Kiminaro wins. He outlasts Suigestu's stamina as he needs constant hydration fixes of water to stop from dying. Grass fields won't work. Also Kiminato doesn't lose his sense of awareness like crazed Juugo to fall by water drowning, not when he has more finesse to his style than rampaging-into-the-wall-juugo




Alex Payne said:


> Unless Kimi can burst a water bubble on his head via some bones he is losing this one. Suigetsu is a terrible matchup for straightforward CQC specialists. He might even drop Base Gai with that cheap move.



Are you serious. Suigestu is lucky if he can touch Gai. There is no 'might'. The sheer underestimation of base Gai is just...what's going on. Did no one see Obito not being able to touch Gai with Kamui. The same dude who nearly warpped Naruto if not for help. Gai has just a disgusting amount more speed, (heightened awareness noticing Naruto in trouble even when occupied. Notice how freaking far Naruto is based on Goku's size), reflexes and speed than partial transformed Juugo, who doesn't run into walls and busts them down in a fit if craziness, and leave themselves wide open. That's not what Master of Taijutsu, a person who can react and move mid kamui warp of small objects, and someone that can perceive time through space bending speeds, would fall too. Not someone described in the data book as having lighting reflexes.


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## Mercurial (Nov 28, 2015)

Young Obito could tag Minato even when Minato had knowledge. Adult Obito couldn't tag Base Gai. Base Gai could react mid Obito's Kamui warp.

Suigetsu is not catching Gai with his water bubble, not even in his dreams lol. Gai kicks him around, Suigetsu liquifies, Gai dodges, kicks him around again, understands, goes 6th Gate and literally vaporizes Suigetsu's water body with Asa Kujaku (which flames and heat vaporized away Kisame's Suiton: Senshokuko made of 1000 Suiton sharks even if usually water > fire).


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## Alex Payne (Nov 28, 2015)

Gai's feats vs Obito are completely irrelevant in a no-knowledge scenario against Suigetsu. He hits him, gets water on him and bubble appears. Suigetsu's ability is unique and Gai never fought anybody remotely similar. It's not a matter of speed or reflexes. Gai needs to know what to expect to evade it.


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## Mercurial (Nov 28, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Gai's feats vs Obito are completely irrelevant in a no-knowledge scenario against Suigetsu. He hits him, gets water on him and bubble appears. Suigetsu's ability is unique and Gai never fought anybody remotely similar. It's not a matter of speed or reflexes. Gai needs to know what to expect to evade it.



He hits him, gets water on him and he dodges the bubble. In base, without Gates enhancement, he can move during a fucking Kamui warp from Obito. Knowledge-helped Kamui warp from Obito is still much times faster than no knowledge-helped Suigetsu water bubble which best feat is taking out Juugo.

Kishimoto is not hyping this man as someone that could risk to lose to Suigetsu, even without knowledge lol.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Gai's feats vs Obito are completely irrelevant in a no-knowledge scenario against Suigetsu. He hits him, gets water on him and bubble appears. Suigetsu's ability is unique and Gai never fought anybody remotely similar. It's not a matter of speed or reflexes. Gai needs to know what to expect to evade it.



False. Suigetsu grabbed Juugo with water AFTER he hit him. Notice the second panel. Anyways its irrelevant, that situation of Gai running and punching Suigestu with so much force that it partially blinds him due to debris,  dust, is not going to happen. Especially ontop of that, Juugo was in crazed mode. You can't put Gai in the EXACT same scenario AND mindset as Juugo.  Plus my feats and statements counter Suigetsu's creeping water arm (?) from grabbing Gai, as he will be way to aware, see it, and use his speed to avoid it.


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## Mercurial (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> False. Suigetsu grabbed Juugo with water AFTER he hit him. Notice the second panel. Anyways its irrelevant, that situation of Gai running and punching Suigestu with so much force that it partially blinds him due to debris,  dust, is not going to happen. Especially ontop of that, Juugo was in crazed mode. You can't put Gai in the EXACT same scenario AND mindset as Juugo.  Plus my feats and statements counter Suigetsu's creeping water arm (?) from grabbing Gai, as he will ve way to aware and fast to react.



Also. Comparing the berserk Juugo with the far more refined, skilled, expert and quick Gai, is really nonsensical.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> False. Suigetsu grabbed Juugo with water AFTER he hit him. Notice the second panel. Anyways its irrelevant, that situation of Gai running and punching Suigestu with so much force that it partially blinds him due to debris,  dust, is not going to happen. Especially ontop of that, Juugo was in crazed mode. You can't put Gai in the EXACT same scenario AND mindset as Juugo.  Plus my feats and statements counter Suigetsu's creeping water arm (?) from grabbing Gai, as he will be way to aware, see it, and use his speed to avoid it.


Killer Bee was caught by Suigetsu when he punched him [1]

Suigetsu wouldn't have a problem capturing Gai's fist, liquefying around him and drowning him with a technique that CS1 Jugo had no counter to, despite him being a beast physically more powerful than Base Gai and having the ability to transform and create energy cannons around himself.

Killer Bee also being a beast physically more powerful than Base Gai, and having the ability to transform (chakra tails) to escape something like that. 

Yet, neither did. 

No reason to suggest Base Gai would.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Killer Bee was caught by Suigetsu when he punched him.
> 
> Suigetsu wouldn't have a problem capturing Gai's fist, liquefying around him and drowning him with a technique that CS1 Jugo had no counter to, despite him being a beast physically more powerful than Gai and having the ability to transform and create energy cannons around himself.



I don't remember that manga panel.Can you link me. : Edit : I see the page you showed me. Killer Bee punches Suigetsu, but he wasn't stuck. Rather it was in an attempt for the quick and nimble Sasuke to tag both of them with Raiton as he had his arm covered in water, with Killer Bee just noticing the premise of the situation he was in. Plus Killer Bee was contending and keeping an eye out for an EMS user, and 2 other fighters.

Suigetsu liquefying Gai's fist, Gai doing nothing, than forming around Gai and trapping him in his liquid body. That's not happening. That didn't even happen to Killer Bee. Killer Bee was in no way shape or form stuck, he had just finished punching Suigetsu, and just as quickly, Sasuke came in with Chidori. Who might I add, is freaking fast. You can even see the water droplets haven't even finishing splashing from the punch in the LAST panel. You were too quick to assume Killer Bee had his arm stuck. I'd agree with you had his arm been in Suigetsu a longer.

As I said, Juugo was in a crazed mindset, he was in no shape or form fighting with any sense of awareness. In fact, the psycho mode literally wipes away any sense of danger he would usually have in a calm form from what I've seen. Plus, I'm not even talking about strength here. I'm talking about how can someone compare a situation where Gai and Juugo's fighting style, awareness, reflexes, and speed, to be the same, as they are readily implying with that one feat Suigetsu has with his water drowning move. Like I said, Juugo even saw the creeping water arm moving come at him. Had Gai be in that exact situation, with just about every thing to do with reflexes, speed, reaction and awareness much better, he would not get caught. Like how he has moved between a warp of the ever-so fast technique Kamui, or like how he noticed, even in such a perilous situation, Naruto, hundreds of meters away, was in danger, or how he actively fended of Obito, the person who nearly tagged KCM Naruto, from touching him. With Gai's speed, of which his Genin student can move side to side leaving after images, he dodges and backs away from the attempted drowning. Brings out the Nunchuku's (if he hasn't already) and makes doubly sure to not act like crazed Juugo for some weird reason, and get him in such a crabby situation.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 28, 2015)

Suigetsu legit stated a sentence after the fist hit him, I think it was clear he was holding onto his arm with the liquid, or Killer Bee would've pulled the fist out and punched him in the face again while he was talking. 

Otherwise, we're talking about Sasuke being capable of blitzing Base Killer Bee, which was proven false when he got his ass handed to him 1 on 1. 

Base Gai escaping something that Killer Bee, with an intelligent cool mindset, could not, is also a bit ridiculous. Base Killer Bee is physically stronger (in striking and lifting) and just as fast as Base Gai. He can also transform, and release tentacles to attack and defend. He did neither.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Suigetsu legit stated a sentence after the fist hit him, I think it was clear he was holding onto his arm with the liquid, or Killer Bee would've pulled the fist out and punched him in the face again while he was talking.
> 
> Otherwise, we're talking about Sasuke being capable of outright blitzing Base Killer Bee, which is kind of ridiculous.
> 
> Base Gai escaping something that Killer Bee, with an intelligent cool mindset, could not, is also a bit ridiculous. Base Killer Bee is physically stronger (in striking and lifting) and just as fast as Base Gai. He can also transform, and release tentacles to attack and defend. He did neither.



Read my updated post. Sasuke blitzed a surprised Killer Bee whose punches impact JUST ended. You can literally see the splash/droplets, haven't even hit the ground in the last panel from Bee's punch [1]. That's what happens when the numbers game is against you, and your partially distracted to the situation. Sasuke blitzed a Bee who just finished throwing an attack, and was occupied by two threats at the same time. You can LITERALLY see it in his face that he notices Sasuke a bit too late in the last panel with his head turned and the '!' exclamation mark. He didn't have time to do anything after his hit landed, and thus got stunned by the Chidori, literally after his punch and not a moment after...


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 28, 2015)

Sasuke blitzed the dude who was just clowning them 3 on 1?

[1]

No, I don't believe so.

I believe Suigetsu held his arm in place, spoke a sentence while doing this, and Sasuke took advantage by shocking them both.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sasuke blitzed the dude who was just clowning them 3 on 1?
> 
> [1]
> 
> ...



Suigetsu is made out of water, of which can be easily disposed of by people like Karin. If you think Suigetsu can actively hold Killer Bee's strength with just water, than you are the one I don't believe. Killer Bee got out played. I just - showed you a panel where Bee noticed Sasuke a bit too late and couldn't do jack. Couldn't throw a  kick, not a arm guard, not even a partial transformation, to fend off Sasuke, all of which were within Bee's ability - it's not like the BattleDome where his restricted to base. He got blitzed, because he was surprised - it shows you in the panel his face (and exclamation point). If his arms was truly stuck, he could get out of it, he had a million and one options to do so besides using base strength.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 28, 2015)

He wasn't surprised, he knew Sasuke was there the entire time. 

His speed didn't surprise him, he previously exchanged kenjutsu with him, and stabbed him 6 times. 

His arm was held in place, and he was attacked before he could free himself, which is what warranted the "oh shit I'm in danger" exclamation point.

The anime's producers seemed to depict this as well In base, without Gates enhancement, he can move during a fucking Kamui warp from Obito

12:48


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He wasn't surprised, he knew Sasuke was there the entire time.
> 
> His speed didn't surprise him, he previously exchanged kenjutsu with him, and stabbed him 6 times.
> 
> His arm was held in place, and he was attacked before he could free himself. That's the only logical explanation.



You say "he was attacked before he could free himself". That's exactly what I'm saying, he was never stuck, he truly did not have the time to counter Sasuke's Chidori from such a SHORT distance (of which Sasuke increases his speed purposely in a straight line) - especially after his punch on Suigetsu had JUST ended. That means, in that time frame, he never had an option to react, just like he never showed reacting or actively doing anything to Sasuke in the next panel as he was attack, than hit. Bee WAS surprised, that's why he jerks his head to see Sasuke so fast with an attack, and an exclamation point, and the next panel, Bee has no guard, kick or any fancy smanshe counter he could do EVEN if one arm was stuck. Plus it MAKES no sense for Suigtestu to randomly have the strength of water to hold Bee's arm (with what, special chakra) because Karin can bust that same water with a kick.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 28, 2015)

When the Chidori hits the punch has long since ended.

The producers of the anime depiction of the chapter agree with me 
In base, without Gates enhancement, he can move during a fucking Kamui warp from Obito

12:48


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> When the Chidori hits the punch has long since ended.
> 
> The producers of the anime depiction of the chapter agree with me
> In base, without Gates enhancement, he can move during a fucking Kamui warp from Obito
> ...



Don't give me that anime depiction argument. They add, change, and ruin anything the manga does, and only on occasion make it better. That is not going to fly with me. You know this.

In the manga Panel, Bee's arm is not even shown actively trying to jerk his arm out of "Suigetsu's" body...That would have been a killer blow for this argument had I missed it.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 28, 2015)

I know it full well, but to me it's clear in the manga he held his arm in place, and it was also clear to the director of that animation. 

If Sasuke could blitz him with Chidori, he wouldn't need Suigetsu to play punching bag to do it. 

He began running at him after the punch landed, ergo Suigetsu telling him to do so once punched, which means you're suggesting he outright blitzed Killer Bee after Killler Bee knew he was going to try it because Suigetsu announced it to the world, which I can't agree with, largely because he made him his bitch when he put 6 blades in him without a reaction.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I know it full well, but to me it's clear in the manga he held his arm in place, and it was also clear to the director of that animation.
> 
> If Sasuke could blitz him with Chidori, he wouldn't need Suigetsu to play punching bag to do it.
> 
> He began running at him after the punch landed, ergo Suigetsu telling him to do so once punched, which means you're suggesting he outright blitzed Killer Bee, which I can't agree with largely because he made him his bitch when he put 6 blades in him without a reaction.



Like I said above, Bee wasn't actively trying to move his arm out of Suigetsu's body in the manga, like you are saying he does in the anime. Yes, I get understand the director of the anime, or whoever, made it the decision to do so, but doesn't mean it's canon.

Also, Suigetsu was the punching bag to electrify Bee to stun him. Sasuke wasn't told to KILL Bee. So he NEEDED Suigetsu to be the punching bag, drench water on him, and paralyze him so that Juugo could land that KO blow. Nearly killing him would probably bring out the Hachibi, it was all in an attempt to KO him.

Also, it's like I said, Bee was blitzed, he eventually succumbed to the numbers. That's why when Bee noticed Sasuke, it was too late, and thus no guard, kick, counter you can do without one arm, happened. You also have to imagine, Sasuke was moving much quicker and faster than Bee previously encountered, because Chidori is a technique that Sasuke uses when moving much faster in a straight line. This was also after Bee had just landed a hit on Suigetsu, and Sasuke was b-lining it for the added combo.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> Like I said above, Bee wasn't actively trying to move his arm out of Suigetsu's body in the manga, like you are saying he does in the anime. Yes, I get understand the director of the anime, or whoever, made it the decision to do so, but doesn't mean it's canon.
> 
> Also, Suigetsu was the punching bag to electrify Bee to stun him. Sasuke wasn't told to KILL Bee. So he NEEDED Suigetsu to be the punching bag, drench water on him, and paralyze him so that Juugo could land that KO blow. Nearly killing him would probably bring out the Hachibi, it was all in an attempt to KO him.
> 
> Also, it's like I said, Bee was blitzed, he eventually succumbed to the numbers. That's why when Bee noticed Sasuke, it was too late, and thus no guard, kick, counter you can do without one arm, happened. You also have to imagine, Sasuke was moving much quicker and faster than Bee previously encountered, because Chidori is a technique that Sasuke uses when moving much faster in a straight line. This was also after Bee had just landed a hit on Suigetsu, and Sasuke was b-lining it for the added combo.




This makes no sense. He was reacting to close range fighting with sasuke that whole time, then decides to just chill out and watch sasuke chidori him because suigetsu's water massage feels so good on his arm? You are missing a huge point. There is no point when suigetsu is holding Bee that bee would not be trying to get free. From the second he grabbed him. Obviously he couldn't.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> This makes no sense. He was reacting to close range fighting with sasuke that whole time, then decides to just chill out and watch sasuke chidori him because suigetsu's water massage feels so good on his arm? You are missing a huge point. There is no point when suigetsu is holding Bee that bee would not be trying to get free. From the second he grabbed him. Obviously he couldn't.



You know what makes no sense, believing Bee's arm was captured by Suigetsu's water which can't even hold a solid looking form after one of Karin's kicks. Even when the same panel you are saying Bee was actively trying to remove his arm out of, showed no indication of him doing so illustrative wise.

It makes sense, because there was a panel literally RIGHT before Bee got hit by Chidori, of him looking at Sasuke coming at him like a bullet train with an exclamation mark. The same Chidori which forces a person to move faster than their base speeds. And Sasuke, already fast, now moving faster, at a shorter distance, timing his attack to the point where Bee just finished his own attack, gets hit. On top of the fact that Bee, didn't even respond with a counter, even if one arm was trapped. 

What, does Bee automatically shut down if one arm is disabled? A would not be proud of him...


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 28, 2015)

He didn't just finish it, Suigetsu had time to speak a sentence after the punch had landed.

It literally has nothing to do with Suigetsu occupying his attention, the punch was landed, it was over at that point.

THEN

Suigetsu told Sasuke to shock them both

THEN

he ran at him, and landed Chidori on Killer Bee.

The only logical explanation is his arm was being held in place. Because it was proven Sasuke doesn't have the speed to blitz Killer Bee, when he failed several times prior, resulting in 6 blades being put in his body without the slightest reaction on his part.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

Then what you are truly saying is Bee chose not to act in defending himself or try to counter during Suigetsu's sentence, because one arm was stuck? One. Arm.

Suigetsu spoke a full sentence before the water droplets from the punch fell to the ground?

This is like me saying because Madara spoke a a few words during Gai's space bending feat [1] we can assume many people can react to the move? I tend to stay away from words being used during those type of scenarios. Same with clothing damage.

If you are going to stick with what you are saying. Then Bee actively was distracted during the sentence Suigetsu said, thus could not to do anything, like seeing Sasuke (as you say) and choosing to counter with some move even with one arm out of commission. Because that's the only logical thing you could say if you believe the the Suigetsu sentence scenario over the water droplets falling to the ground scenario in term of time. But then you are saying Sasuke waited for Suigetsu to finish his sentence before attacking....I just. Rather with Sharingan, he was probably already move before Suigetsu even spouted his sentence.

Makes me wander, if you are so certain Bee couldn't get his arm out of Suigetsu, why didn't he just pick up Suigetsu and swing him at Sasuke, and get them all electrocuted. Don't tell me Suigetsu is 1000000 pounds now.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 28, 2015)

Suigetsu was shown a good amount of control over his liquids(). He could launch them at great speeds, manipulate it to boost his muscles, make it to stay in a specific shape outside his own body and above all else when given enough water he could physically tackle a biju using his water form. Him temporarily holding base B makes sense. Just his body = can hold Base B for a brief period. Lake = can push Biju Mode B a little bit. Karin messing him up when he isn't consciously controlling his powers doesn't prove anything. Karin isn't doing a thing to serious Suigetsu.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> You said Kiminaro is faster than Gai. Then you say Suigestu is faster than Kimimaro. Are you kidding me...
> 
> Do you sincerely think Gai is slower than suigestu now....
> 
> As for the thread, Kiminaro wins. He outlasts Suigestu's stamina as he needs constant hydration fixes of water to stop from dying. Grass fields won't work. Also Kiminato doesn't lose his sense of awareness like crazed Juugo to fall by water drowning, not when he has more finesse to his style than rampaging-into-the-wall-juugo



I never said that, I said Kimimaro in base is faster than Lee, just that. I said Kimimaro in CS2 beats Base Gai due to other factors such as durability and such. 

As for Suigetsu's speed, you guys are way too biased here if you think of him as a fodder. 

Here Suigetsu reacted to Ei's blitz from like 30-50 meters away with ease, not only he lunged forward and got there in time but also managed to block it off w/ a almost cut in half blade.

KB attacks Sasuke, and here Juugo starts running while Suigetsu is nowhere in sight  and here we already see him interrupting KB's blitz from like a decent distance. 

Here Suigetsu easily managed to blitz Spiral Zetsu, the being who was not only pressuring all Gokages together but also giving edo Hiruzen + thousands of fodders big trouble.

Kimimaro's best feat is that of surpassing injured drunken base Lee in CS1 state, while I agree that he might be able to surpass Base Lee (non drunken and non injured) in terms of speed, he has shown nothing which puts him anywhere close to Suigetsu here, who managed to interrupt blitz from two high speed tiers and even managed to bltiz someone who pressured Gokages (tired, but still) and Edo Hiruzen.

Suigetsu's speed is fucking underrated.

And that's not just it, while Kimimaro has edge in terms of taijutsu, Suigetsu's strength is pretty decent, he managed to create a crater this big after his attack was cushioned by KB, and he didn't even use arm booster. Suigetsu also managed to block a direct hit from Ei just at cost of his blade (Which was almost cut in half) and managed to almost blitz Cii, and go toe on toe with someone like Darui and forcing him to resort to lightning.

Suigetsu's Suika jutsu >>> Kimimaro's bone defense. While Sui ka has it's disadvantages, advantages are far bigger.

Suigetsu's water gun travels at a faster speed than sound, too.

Suigetsu destroys anyone in CQC if the opponent doesn't have knowledge. Here he managed to instantly catch KB with his jutsu as soon as the punch connected, Gai w/o intel is being caught, nothing proves otherwise, and once he's caught he's getting drowned. And so is Kimimaro here, who is actually SLOWER than Suigetsu feats considered 

As one can see here Suigetsu's water was stuck on Juugo as soon as the punch connected and then it made its way to the top and drowned him anyway.

Suigetsu in terms of speed and overall durability (due to his immunity) takes a dump on Kimimaro. Kimimaro isn't doing shit here, the intel is manga and thus Kimimaro won't just try to spam evade him, and even if he does it, Suigetsu will be catching up to him nonetheless.



Jad said:


> You know what makes no sense, believing Bee's arm was captured by Suigetsu's water which can't even hold a solid looking form after one of Karin's kicks.



That's like saying Naruto can't evade anyone's attack because he got hit by Sakura's punches a few times. Honestly, Suigetsu doesn't give a single fuck about Karin, and he doesn't care, if he wanted to Karin would've drowned the moment she landed a hit on him.

Suigetsu held B, nothing proves otherwise, he said a sentence, and had Sasuke come to him and chidori all while B couldn't get his arm away, the best he could do was land a few more hits on Suigetsu but in the end he'd still be stuck, so obviously one wouldn't bother. Base Gai is drowning against Suigetsu, period.

Either way, Suigetsu takes a dump on Kimimaro w/o any difficulty, the bone guy is wanked hard, his best speed feat is being > injured drunken Lee and arguably > Base non-injured Lee, which isn't comparable to stopping blitzes from KB and Ei, and blitzing SZ w/o effort.

Hell, Suigetsu would put a bullet in Rock Lee's eyebrows before anything.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

1. There are no feats that Suigetsu has the strength of water to hold someone of Bee's strength, whilst there are feats to the contrary.

2. The panel doesn't show Bee struggling to get out of the body of water, which can easily be shown by 'jerkiness' motion illustration. Instead, it shows the splashing of the water still happening from the impact of Bee's punch.

3. And Bee not being able to do anything to counter Sasuke's attack because he has one arm stuck, does not fly with me. While instead, if makes more sense that Bee did lose that exchange (combo if you will), because the panel prior to Bee getting hit, he has an exclamation mark over his head, and the sudden realisation that Sasuke is speeding over to him from such a close range with the Chidori. A technique that makes Sasuke move faster than usual in base, since that is how the technique works.

Yet from that one panel, all bets are off, Bee hand WAS stuck, and thus his whole body was shut down from doing any counter because he was too busy.....having his hand stuck. When previously, Suigetsu constantly gets his water slapped like......real water....by anyone with strength, which includes those of lesser strength than Bee.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> 1. There are no feats that Suigetsu has the strength of water to hold someone of Bee's strength, whilst there are feats to the contrary.



But he did, get over that fact.


> 2. The panel doesn't show Bee struggling to get out of the body of water, which can easily be shown by 'jerkiness' motion illustration. Instead, it shows the splashing of the water still happening from the impact of Bee's punch.



According to you B would let Suigetsu speak a sentence and then let Sasuke come and chidori him, while drowned in water? Baseless statement, at least make sense.



> 3. And Bee not being able to do anything to counter Sasuke's attack because he has one arm stuck, does not fly with me. While instead, if makes more sense that Bee did lose that exchange (combo if you will), because the panel prior to Bee getting hit, he has an exclamation mark over his head, and the sudden realisation that Sasuke is speeding over to him from such a close range with the Chidori. A technique that makes Sasuke move faster than usual in base, since that is how the technique works.



B couldn't counter his attack because he simply couldn't, what you expect him to do, punch chidori or something? While stuck at one position, B by all means can't beat Sasuke's sharingan, he only managed to do it earlier because of his acrobatic movement.

The technique doesn't make Sasuke move at a faster speed, that was its initial requirement, chidori is a jab where you move at high speed and hit the opponent with it (it's incomplete because if you don't have sharingan, it leaves so many openings). Post-skip the required speed for chidori turned into normal speed for most of characters out there.



> Yet from that one panel, all bets are off, Bee hand WAS stuck, and thus his whole body was shut down from doing any counter because he was too busy.....having his hand stuck. When previously, Suigetsu constantly gets his water slapped like......real water....by anyone with strength, which includes those of lesser strength than Bee.



No, B's hand was stuck and thus he couldn't get away or move freely, his one armed attack w/o acrobatics were not strong enough to do shit to Sasuke's sharingan.

Jad, you need to stop bringing Karin in it unless you do admit that anyone faster than Sakura can easily kill Naruto just because Naruto didn't bother dodging one of Sakura's punches. Hell,why would Suigetsu even want to make Karin stuck again?

Also, you're ignoring the fact that the thread isn't even related to this only, Suigetsu is literally faster than Kimimaro all feats considered.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

Shanal said:


> But he did, get over that fact.



You haven't shown me the panel of Bee struggling to get out of Suigetsu's body. Not a single panel shows Bee being surprised he was stuck, or the jerkiness of his arm trying to get out.




> According to you B would let Suigetsu speak a sentence and then let Sasuke come and chidori him, while drowned in water? Baseless statement, at least make sense.



I already countered that post above with DaVizWiz [].




> B couldn't counter his attack because he simply couldn't, what you expect him to do, punch chidori or something? While stuck at one position, B by all means can't beat Sasuke's sharingan, he only managed to do it earlier because of his acrobatic movement.



Oh, but I thought Bee had other moves up his sleeve, like partial transformation. His not restricted to base in the manga, not like here in the Battledome through  a stipulation. If Bee could react, he would have gotten out of that situation one way or another. A kick, a jump, he would have actively done something, even if he was stuck in one spot. But he didn't have time to react because the situation happened to quick for him in that moment. Everyone reacts if they can, they don't give up on the spot and let themselves get hit.



> The technique doesn't make Sasuke move at a faster speed, that was its initial requirement, chidori is a jab where you move at high speed and hit the opponent with it (it's incomplete because if you don't have sharingan, it leaves so many openings). Post-skip the required speed for chidori turned into normal speed for most of characters out there.



No, Chidori makes you move faster than you would usually do in Base. That's why when Sasuke in the Chuunin exams didn't use his "Chidori running in a straight line" speed, rather it happens when he chooses to use Chidori.



> No, B's hand was stuck and thus he couldn't get away or move freely, his one armed attack w/o acrobatics were not strong enough to do shit to Sasuke's sharingan.



Bee's hand was stuck...Bee has the ability to increase his base strength using the Hachibi's power, which is indicative sometimes through the Chakra armor for example. The point is, he didn't have time to respond to the situation he was in, like simply pulling his arm out, or doing this . Otherwise if he could, he would have used the plethora of techniques he has at his disposable. 




> Jad, you need to stop bringing Karin in it unless you do admit that anyone faster than Sakura can easily kill Naruto just because Naruto didn't bother dodging one of Sakura's punches. Hell,why would Suigetsu even want to make Karin stuck again?



Sigh, Suigetsu is not actively trying to choke Karin out. But nothing suggests his water body is anything other than just pure water. Even Kishimoto said you can drink Suigetsu in an interview. Seriously. His just water!


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> You haven't shown me the panel of Bee struggling to get out of Suigetsu's body. Not a single panel shows Bee being surprised he was stuck, or the jerkiness of his arm trying to get out.



B hit Suigetsu, Suigetsu turned into water, Suigetsu being confident enough in the fact that his water can hold B called out for Sasuke, Sasuke rushed forward with chidori, Sasuke jabbed. KB didn't move an inch. That is enough of a proof. If B could get free. he'd be free, unless you're claiming that Sasuke can hit B who was trolling them in 3 vs 1 CQC.



> I already countered that post above with DaVizWiz [].



I countered what you countered, being stuck in one place, B couldn't defend against Sasuke, also, saying sentence or not doesn't matter, B didn't get free, that's what it's about.




> Oh, but I thought Bee had other moves up his sleeve, like partial transformation. His not restricted to base in the manga, not like here in the Battledome through  a stipulation. If Bee could react, he would have gotten out of that situation one way or another. A kick, a jump, he would have actively done something, even if he was stuck in one spot. But he didn't have time to react because the situation happened to quick for him in that moment.



You claim that B who was trolling them all in CQC would have trouble dodging Sasuke's close ranged chidori? Well, that's adorable. Suigetsu himself was confident in the fact that KB would be held by the water. KB punched Suigetsu, water splashed, KB's hand is stuck, he wonders what the hell is going on then sees Sasuke there, and gets chidori'd. Your first action when your hand is stuck is to get it out, whether it's shown or not via jerk (That'd be a waste of panel, blah blah), KB would've been surprised since his hand was stuck and would've wasted enough time as an attempt to jerk it out.

The fact remains: *If KB wasn't stuck, he would have easily jumped away given his speed and stuff, the only legit reason for him to take chidori is the fact that he couldn't move at that moment.*



> No, Chidori makes you move faster than you would usually do in Base. That's why when Sasuke in the Chuunin exams didn't use his "Chidori running in a straight line" speed, rather it happens when he chooses to use Chidori.



You need to reread, bud, Gai stated Kakashi was training his speed just to get him at required speed, Sasuke running in one direction is obviously faster than him running and jumping around while looking out for any attacks. *Chidori is a jutsu which requires high speed movement rather than giving the user high speed movement.* Here Sasuke is fast enough to do it anyway, also that depends upon how  you want to use chidori, you can literally just use it while standing just to slash something away. Saying chidori boosts a person's speed is retarded, even Kakashi himself claimed that Sasuke can use chidori DUE to his speed, not other way around. This Sasuke >>>>>>>>>> That Sasuke in speed, he can do it while running at 50%.



> Bee's hand was stuck...Bee has the ability to increase his base strength using the Hachibi's power, which is indicative sometimes through the Chakra armor for example. The point is, he didn't have time to respond to the situation he was in, like simply pulling his arm out. Otherwise if he could, he would have used the plethora of techniques he has at his disposable.



When you just landed a hit on a body which apparently turned into water out of blue, and your hand is stuck (and you wonder how the hell it happened), I don't think KB had much time to think and instantly come up with a counter to the sudden bizzare situation, if his hand was free, he'd jump away by instinct, but that wasn't the case. Sasuke can't land a hit on KB who is completely free to move, makes no sense, and Suigetsu would rather try to splash water at KB rather than HAVING KB HIT HIM if his water couldn't HOLD him. The entire portrayal of the situation implies that KB had his hand stuck, is it so hard to get?





> Sigh, Suigetsu is not actively trying to choke Karin out. But nothing suggests his water body is anything other than just pure water. Even Kishimoto said you can drink Suigetsu in an interview. Seriously. His just water!



His water body is controlled via chakra, it's water with chakra flowing in it, Suigetsu can manipulate his body in every way possible and can make it harder. Suigetsu's Tate Eboshi, which is supposed to be made up of water was stated to be harder than steel in Databook is another proof of Suigetsu's manipulation over density of water and such.

Also, you obviously can drink Suigetsu, and then he'd slowly chop you inside out


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Here He even noticed Sasuke running to him w/ chidori, but didn't even jump away or got away a bit also clearly shows that he was stuck.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

AHAAA.

So now you are saying Be didn't have time to react to the situation because I quote: "When you just landed a hit on a body which apparently turned into water out of blue, and your hand is stuck (and you wonder how the hell it happened), I don't think KB had much time to think and instantly come up with a counter to the sudden bizzare situation, if his hand was free, he'd jump away by instinct, but that wasn't the case."

So let's read this quote. You said "*I don't think KB had much time to think and instantly come up with a counter to the sudden bizzare situation*". Beautiful, so you are saying that Bee couldn't come up with a single thought  DURING Suigetsu's sentence (which you keep pushing), even though previously he was fighting 3 guys at the same time. The same guy who can control seven blades at the same time in quick motion, couldn't come up with a single move in his repertoire, to get out of his arm being trapped, because it was "*bizzare*". Your hand being trapped in water is "*Bizzare*" ? Out of all the things in the Naruto world, the one thing that makes Bee, who has a Ox Beast within him, suddenly stop and question the situation, because his hand being stuck in water and not being able to do anything, DURING Suigetsu's sentence, is "*Bizzare*".

Are you sure you want to fly with that?

You say it again "If KB wasn't stuck, he would have easily jumped away given his speed and stuff, the only legit reason for him to take chidori is the fact that he couldn't move at that moment." 

Bee could not move at that moment, thus everything I listed, including the Hachibi explosion of Chakra, was disabled, because this dude's hand was STUCK in WATER.



> Suigetsu can manipulate his body in every way possible and can make it harder.



True slightly, however, he quote, from the Databook, to strengthen himself:

"By putting the "Hydrification Technique"? into practical use the muscles of the arm are temporarily enlarged and strengthened...!! Moisture is gathered from the whole body and compressed into the entire arm. An instant pump-up. However, because it is essential to properly control the moisture balance inside the body, this technique's degree of difficulty is very high."

What happens, is even Suigetsu has 'muscles', and uses the water to enlarge them. When Suigetsu got punched by Bee, you state that his water held him place, thus an indication of strengthening the water through chakra. But, the databook, which shows that the only way Suigetsu can strengthen himself, is by stimulating his muscles by pumping them up, hence he had toned arm muscles in the manga. Yet, that panel where you allege Suigetsu held Bee doesn't show Suigetsu using anything but pure mass of water. Strengthening one's body happens by pumping muscles. It's a ninjutsu technique in fact.

The thing is, even with his arm fully strengthered, he doesn't come close to Bee's base strength. So even if I were to pretend that _some _of the Databook facts didn't exist, you would have to believe that Suigetsu's water to hold someone within himself, would only be as strong as the feats his shown with his arm pumped up (as it uses most of the water in his body to do so - as said in the Databook).



Shanal said:


> Here He even noticed Sasuke running to him w/ chidori, but didn't even jump away or got away a bit also clearly shows that he was stuck.



Exclamation mark, and sudden jerk of looking at Sasuke, meant he was caught off guard. Just like how Juugo was when he got hit by the Water Arm Suigetsu ended up drowning him with. That's picture perfect, the reason why in the next panel, Bee didn't use any of his free limbs, partial transformed Tail like he used against Minato, or his Hachibi massive arm like he used against Itachi, never came out.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> AHAAA.
> 
> So now you are saying Be didn't have time to react to the situation because I quote: "When you just landed a hit on a body which apparently turned into water out of blue, and your hand is stuck (and you wonder how the hell it happened), I don't think KB had much time to think and instantly come up with a counter to the sudden bizzare situation, if his hand was free, he'd jump away by instinct, but that wasn't the case."



Not really, I am just suggesting that KB couldn't manage to use a jutsu to counter Sasuke's chidori (and anything minus partial transformation won't work) while having his hand stuck. He noticed Sasuke, Suigetsu said crap, he just stood there, and if he was mobile, he would've dodged.



> Beautiful, so you are saying that Bee couldn't come up with a single thought  DURING Suigetsu's sentence, even though previously he was fighting 3 guys at the same time. The same guy who can control seven blades at the same time in quick motion, couldn't come up with a single move in his repertoire, to get out of his arm being trapped, because it was "*bizzare*". Your hand being trapped in water is "*Bizzare*" ? Out of all the things in the Naruto world, the one thing that makes Bee, who has a Ox Beast within him, suddenly stop and question the situation, because his hand being stuck in water and not being able to do anything, DURING Suigetsu's sentence, is "Bizzare".



I already agreed to your "sentence" part, though, since you stated Might Gai making a sentence while Night Moth, I can agree that part was bs. However, KB's attacks, any, minus partial transformation won't work on Sasuke, and his body was stuck (he couldn't move) and didn't have one arm, and Sasuke was rushing towards him. He noticed Sasuke, he could've dodged him, but he didn't try to, the same KB who was engaging them in 3 vs 1 didn't jump away on instinct, alone proves that he was at least stuck.



> Are you sure you want to fly with that?
> 
> You say it again "If KB wasn't stuck, he would have easily jumped away given his speed and stuff, the only legit reason for him to take chidori is the fact that he couldn't move at that moment."
> 
> Bee could not move at that moment, thus everything I listed, including the Hachibi explosion of Chakra, was disabled, because this dude's hand was STUCK in WATER.



Those things take more time than jumping away on instinct you know? Your hand hits water, Sasuke tries chidori, you pull out, doesn't work, you get zapped. Hachibi isn't as instantaneous as you think. Also, if Suigetsu couldn't "catch" him with water, he would've simply tried to splash water on him rather than SACRIFICING himself.


> What happens, is even Suigetsu has 'muscles', and uses the water to enlarge them. When Suigetsu got punched by Bee, you state that his water held him place, thus an indication of strengthening the water through chakra. But, the databook, which shows that the only way Suigetsu can strengthen himself, is by stimulating his muscles by pumping them up, hence he had toned arm muscles in the manga. Yet, that panel where you allege Suigetsu held Bee doesn't show Suigetsu using anything but pure mass of water. Strengthening one's body happens by pumping muscles. It's a ninjutsu technique in fact.



Suigetsu, using Tate Eboshi (Jelly fish) could make water harder than steel, yes, pure water through his ability, he could make it harder than steel. Nothing suggests that he can't do it to his own body, controlling ones own body which is made up of water and has your chakra flowing in it is much easier to harden than alien water controlled by your chakra. Suigetsu could easily hold KB in place at that moment.

If he couldn't, he wouldn't have tried that stupid tactic and would've just splashed him in water and quickly jumped away. Why'd Suigetsu even stay there knowing Sasuke is about to come? KB was splashed with water and had it over him, Suigetsu had only one reason to stay there: Holding B on spot.

When you hit a water and  realize someone running at you, your mind would instinctively make you jump away, however when that won't work and you have few seconds to think, I don't think that KB would be able to use partial transformation by then.

Also, let me note that Suigetsu has shown ability to stick water on attacker's body, and then drown him/her with it, as shown when Juugo rampaged through him, fucked his body up and got further, the water splash wasn't anywhere near Juugo in next panel. However we see some amount of water crawling up from Juugo's chest and then forming a blob around his head (And that's when he did "!" while surprised at how the fuck). Suigetsu can manipulate water, he'd have it stuck on the attacker's body anyway.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Not really, I am just suggesting that KB couldn't manage to use a jutsu to counter Sasuke's chidori (and anything minus partial transformation won't work) while having his hand stuck. He noticed Sasuke, Suigetsu said crap, he just stood there, and if he was mobile, he would've dodged.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Your posts adds assumptions to the contrary. You say "Killer Bee got confused by Suigetsu" first assumption, you say Killer Bee tried to yank his arm out, second assumption, your third assumption was he could not do anything in time because of A and B, and your fourth assumption is Suigetsu has the strength to hold someone like Bee. Yet none of that was shown in the manga before, during, or after that event. That was your own interpretation with too many unknowns.

Whilst for me, I didn't see Killer Bee actively yank his arm out of Suigetsu, suggesting it was stuck. And I didn't see any attempt in the next panel of Bee trying to ANYTHING that resembled a small attempt at counter (which would be just as instinctive as jumping back) against Sasuke. Thus I have no reason to believe Suigetsu made his body suck in Bee. And I have never seen Suigetsu have the strength to trap someone like Bee's stature.

I saw a panel of Bee punching Suigetsu, and literally before the water droplets have even attempted to hit the ground, Sasuke speeding at Bee with Chidori from close range, and a panel of Bee surprised and unable to form even a failed attempt at a counter. Suigetsu took advantage of the situation of Bee punching him, wasn't planned, which splashed water, and Sasuke was on the same wavelength going for Bee for a stun blow.


As for Tate Eboshi, no idea where you got the idea of 'water being hard as steel' from.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 28, 2015)

Ghost said:


> *Suigetsu creates that water bubble around Kimi's head like he did with Juugo.*
> 
> Suigetsu wins no diff.
> 
> Or just blitzes and shoots a water bullet through Kimi's eye socket.



[/THREAD]


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> Your posts adds assumptions to the contrary. You say "Killer Bee got confused by Suigetsu" first assumption, you say Killer Bee tried to yank his arm out, second assumption, your third assumption was he could not do anything in time because of A and B, and your fourth assumption is Suigetsu has the strength to hold someone like Bee. Yet none of that was shown in the manga before, during, or after that event. That was your own interpretation with too many unknowns.



Your argument: Apparently Suigetsu for some bizare reason splashed KB with water, called out for Sasuke, and rather than jumping away in advance choose to hit himself with KB. Even though he could've splashed from long range too.

Get real, KB was stuck, that's why he never even attempted to jump away from him, it's a battle, if KB hits water, he should instinctively jump away thinking it's dangerous rather than staring at it for no reason. Give me one legit reason as to why KB didn't even attempt to move?

Actually, feat-wise Suigetsu CAN make water hard enough to hold KB, he managed to make it hard enough to survive from (destroyed, but survive) a point blank range Bijuudama and shield his comrades behind. 

Points proving that KB's hand was stuck.

*1)*- Suigetsu tried to have KB fist him rather than splashing water from long distance, and the fact that water wouldn't even enhance Sasuke's chidori damage by a lot considering KB barely took a little splash of it also suggests that Suigetsu did it to HOLD KB at a place for Sasuke to land a hit rather than to do Raiton + Suiton crap, which could've done in better, safer way.

*2)-* Suigetsu despite knowing that Sasuke would attack, didn't jump in advance and choose to hold KB instead.

*3)-* KB despite having just hit a body which turned into liquid didn't instantly jump away, even though it could've been dangerous, KB's reaction timing is immense and he managed to destroy Taka in CQC 3 vs 1, if he was mobile in any way or form, he would've dodged Sasuke's chidori, Suigetsu did absolutely nothing to him according to you other than splash water, then why didn't he jump off?

*4)-* Stating that Suigetsu can't hold KB by strengthening the water in his body is rather BS, Suigetsu has shown the ability to strengthen a LARGE amount of water to such extends that it can shield people behind it from a close face-to-face Bijuudama assault, not to mention, survive it too (Turn into jelly and stuff, but live nonetheless).

*5)-* KB noticed Sasuke's chidori, but didn't even try to remove his arm, proves that he was stuck anyway.

Really, every single thing about this scenario implies that he was stuck, your claim is solely based off the fact that why didn't he use Hachibi partial transformation, which, again, ignores the fact that despite his reflexes and speed and the fact he just hit a body which turned into liquid, KB didn't chose to remove his arm and quickly get the hell away. You're making assumptions too, to some extends.

Also, aside this argument, I assume we all agreed on the fact that Suigetsu takes a dump on Kimimaro?


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 28, 2015)

1

 The fact that Bee's punch didn't even penetrate Suigetsu's body suggests Suigetsu can actually manipulate it to be relatively strong. Whether or not it was resistant enough for it to keep Bee's punch in place is debatable, but I would think so.

 Anime depiction supports the idea and even Suigetsu's water managed to encase Killer Bee's entire fist and it was relatively thick as well.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Link removed
> 
> The fact that Bee's punch didn't even penetrate Suigetsu's body suggests Suigetsu can actually manipulate it to be relatively strong. Whether or not it was resistant enough for it to keep Bee's punch in place is debatable, but I would think so.
> 
> Anime depiction supports the idea and even Suigetsu's water managed to encase Killer Bee's entire fist and it was relatively thick as well.



Man, Suigetsu friggin' made water from nature strong enough to safe himself and teammates behind from whooping Bijuudama. I don't know how the hell anyone can even claim that Sui can't make his body strong enough to hold KB, makes no sense.

Also, even in DBs it's been stated that Suigetsu's Tate Eboshi is harder than steel.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Your argument: Apparently Suigetsu for some bizare reason splashed KB with water, called out for Sasuke, and rather than jumping away in advance choose to hit himself with KB. Even though he could've splashed from long range too.
> 
> Get real, KB was stuck, that's why he never even attempted to jump away from him, it's a battle, if KB hits water, he should instinctively jump away thinking it's dangerous rather than staring at it for no reason. Give me one legit reason as to why KB didn't even attempt to move?
> 
> ...



Wait, back up. I'm going to ruin your argument about with the whole Bee didn't jump away point. If Killer Bee did instinctively try to jump away, his arm being stuck in Suigetsu, would have carried him along with Bee. Because I don't remember Suigetsu, being made out of Water, being so heavy. IS that what you want to believe now ? Let me guess, you will add another assumption to prove why Bee couldn't jump away with Suigetsu on his arm?

My argument was never, ever, to be that Suigetsu splash Killer Bee with water from close range. Where did you get that from? Killer Bee ran at Suigetsu and punched him, that's how the water splashed on him. Not sure where you got the idea the other idea from. You keep saying stuff like "Why didn't Suigetsu move after he got punched by Bee" and stuff. I am literally saying, that even Killer Bee couldn't do anything, let alone Suigetsu also move out of the way, from Sasuke's Chidori assault. It's not a matter of 'why didn't such and such do this' it was matter a matter of 'nothing they could not do anything'.

Also when did an entire Lake of water that turns into a monster based on a ninjutsu technique which has a name 'Tate Eboshi', become equivalent to a non-ninjutsu technique like your water splashing about when someone punches you...Where does it even say Tate Eboshi is like steel? You said that and randomly never brought it up again.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> Wait, back up. I'm going to ruin your argument about why Bee didn't jump away. If Killer Bee did instinctively try to jump away, his arm being stuck in Suigetsu, would have carried him along with Bee. Because I don't remember Suigetsu, being made out of Water, being so heavy. IS that what you want to believe now ?
> 
> My arguement was never, ever, to be that Suigetsu splash Killer Bee with water from close range. Where did you get that from? Killer Bee ran at Suigetsu and punched him, that's how the water splashed on him. Not sure where you got the idea the other idea from.



Well, that's a good one, though, think about it more naturally.

KB hits, Suigetsu splashes, KB attempts to yank his arm out as Suigetsu calls for Sasuke, doesn't work, KB quickly looks to his right, gets zapped.

If KB instantly punched Suigetsu and his arm wasn't stuck, he would've quickly retrieved it and jumped away, nothing, nothing at all suggests that he wouldn't or didn't have time to do just that, unless you want to claim that KB was admiring the water flowing. Also, the fact that KB's punch didn't evenmanage to go through Suigetsu's body is just a plus. Not to mention, if you hit water you wouldn't try to yank away with all your strength, KB didn't have much time, but enough to retrieve his arm and jump away, however when the first doesn't work, you aren't doing much before getting Chidori.

Suigetsu had KB hit him, instantly without any thought asked Sasuke to get both of them. Sounds like a plan to me, and if he wanted to do that (or even knew that he wanted to do that), he would have either jumped back in advance or did it long ranged.

Logically, I don't see how the hell KB didn't manage to retrieve his arm and quickly get away if he wasn't stuck to begin with, given the fact that he fodderzied Sasuke, it's bullshit to claim that KB can't react to a chidori aside the range.

Every single thing that happened suggest that Suigetsu was holding him.

Tate Eboshi, according to Databook (which named it) states that Suigetsu uses his chakra to manipulate water and harden it, making it harder than steel. If Suigetsu can do that to water which isn't his own using his chakra, why can't he do that to his OWN body?

I bought it up a few times, you simply ignored, even by feats it was strong enough to shield remaining of Taka w/ its body. Suigetsu makes foreign water stronger, he can do it to his own body.

Also, you still didn't answer me, satisfied with the answer to thread or not? Suigetsu stomps, or you still believe not (Which, is by no means only related to Suigetsu's ability to HOLD people).


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Well, that's a good one, though, think about it more naturally.
> 
> KB hits, Suigetsu splashes, KB attempts to yank his arm out as Suigetsu calls for Sasuke, doesn't work, KB quickly looks to his right, gets zapped.



You JUST said before it was instinct that Bee jump away, but couldn't because his arm would be stuck. And I said "If he did jump instinctively, he would have carried Suigetsu in tow with him". Than you say "KB attempts to yank his arm out of Suigetsu" instead of the instinctive thing you said, of him jumping away. Which one is it?

So are you changing your argument now, that Killer Bee tried to yank his arm out but couldn't in time? The thing is, LITERALLY panel for panel, we are giving snap shots of what happened. And BEE NEVER attempted to yank out his arm from Suigetsu. You know why? Because he had JUST finished punching Suigetsu. I say that you know why? Because a panel before Bee's surprised face, the water from Suigetsu's body was still in motion of exploding. And when Bee has his surprised look at his face, looking at Sasuke, the water droplets from that punch are still in mid-slow motion air.

I'm stating that Bee didn't even have time to pull back his arm after the punch.



> Tate Eboshi, according to Databook (which named it) states that Suigetsu uses his chakra to manipulate water and harden it, making it harder than steel. If Suigetsu can do that to water which isn't his own using his chakra, why can't he do that to his OWN body?



No offense, but I need cold hard evidence on that.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> You JUST said before it was instinct that Bee jump away, but couldn't because his arm would be stuck. And I said "If he did jump instinctively, he would have carried Suigetsu in tow with him". Than you say "KB attempts to yank his arm out of Suigetsu" instead of the instinctive thing you said, of him jumping away. Which one is it?
> 
> So are you changing your argument now, that Killer Bee tried to yank his arm out but couldn't in time? The thing is, LITERALLY panel for panel, we are giving snap shots of what happened. And BEE NEVER attempted to yank out his arm from Suigetsu. You know why? Because he had JUST finished punching Suigetsu. I say that you know why? Because a panel before Bee's surprised face, the water from Suigetsu's body was still in motion of exploding. And when Bee has his surprised look at his face, looking at Sasuke, the water droplets from that punch are still in mid-slow motion air.



So, according to you, the B who completely DESTROYED Sasuke in 1 vs 1 would not be able to dodge his chidori just because he just punched someone else? Suigetsu calling out for Sasuke, B having his arm in there but not completely penetrated, and Sasuke running at him.

Are you claiming B can't move his hand faster than Sasuke can get to him from a small distance after being called out? Oh boy, I have no idea how in the world KB didn't get foddierzed by Sasuke earlier then, he was controlling like seven blades at same time.

Don't see a logical reason for why the hell he didn't manage to remove his arms before Suigetsu called out and Sasuke chidori'd him other than it being stuck, and KB yanking it once with no effort.

Also, you still haven't answered me.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> No offense, but I need cold hard evidence on that.



I can't find a direct page of Databook, though I'll give you this

Not only it was strong enough to physically stop and overpower KB, but it also shielded Taka members behind it from a point blank Bijuudama, I am pretty sure going by these feats, it should be harder than steel anyway.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

Shanal said:


> So, according to you, the B who completely DESTROYED Sasuke in 1 vs 1 would not be able to dodge his chidori just because he just punched someone else? Suigetsu calling out for Sasuke, B having his arm in there but not completely penetrated, and Sasuke running at him.
> 
> Are you claiming B can't move his hand faster than Sasuke can get to him from a small distance after being called out? Oh boy, I have no idea how in the world KB didn't get foddierzed by Sasuke earlier then, he was controlling like seven blades at same time.
> 
> ...



Because Bee punched Suigetsu and Chidori running Sasuke was already too close for Bee to do anything after his attack had hardly finished against Suigetsu as indicated by the water droplets...Is it weird that Bee would eventually fall to being out numbered in his fight? It happened. It's not like I made this up. It showed panel for panel what happened.

Bee punched Suigetsu, minus no illustration of Bee struggling to get his arm out of Suigetsu, Bee looks to the side, Sasuke is on his ass moving faster than before, with Chidori in tow. And going by your PREVIOUS logic, apparently was 'bizzared' out from the whole 'water body' dealo, so I guess that was enough of a distraction to get hit. YOUR LOGIC. Although he was just out played.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> Because Bee punched Suigetsu and Chidori running Sasuke was already too close for Bee to do anything after his attack had hardly finished against Suigetsu as indicated by the water droplets...Is it weird that Bee would eventually fall to being out numbered in his fight? It happened. It's not like I made this up. It showed panel for panel what happened.



Sasuke didn't use chidori till Suigetsu called him out, are you claiming that Kb couldn't even move his hand in the mean time? KB punched someone, that someone called someone, the 2nd someone ran towards KB, and KB's hand is still in there. Much logic.



> Bee punched Suigetsu, minus no illustration of Bee struggling to get his arm out of Suigetsu, Bee looks to the side, Sasuke is on his ass moving faster than before, with Chidori in tow. And going by your PREVIOUS logic, apparently was 'bizzared' out from the whole 'water body' dealo, so I guess that was enough of a distraction to get hit. YOUR LOGIC. Although he was just out played.



Chidori doesn't make Sasuke move faster, I already countered that, it was never once stated in manga that it boosts speed in any shape or form.

KB managing to not even move his hand after all that seems pretty not-so-possible to me, dunno about you. While I do agree that you have a point, you need to also agree that:

After you hit someone and he calls out for someone and then the one who was called out tries to attack you, you should at least be able to move your friggin' hand away. 

Honestly, if anything I call it a poor way to play a scene out on Kishimoto's side, but honestly, KB could've move his hand out but he didn't, we all know that Suigetsu had pre-planned it judging by the fact how quickly he called Sasuke out, Suigetsu didn't jump back in advance or tried to long range it. More times than not it leads us to the fact that KB, in fact, was actually stuck in there.

Suigetsu's action when it all happened.
Kb not moving his arm. And whatnot.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 28, 2015)

Suigetsu has been hinted to have poor stamina, constantly getting tired from walking and needing to drink a lot. Or he may just be lazy.

Either way, Kimimaro seems to have the discipline to hang in there until his body literally fails, so although neither one of them can truly damage the other, I'd expect Kimimaro to hold his own longer. On top of that, Kimi is just a better fighter, in terms of skill.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Suigetsu has been hinted to have poor stamina, constantly getting tired from walking and needing to drink a lot. Or he may just be lazy.



I'd go with the latter, I think it's mostly to poke fun at Karin and annoy her.


> Either way, Kimimaro seems to have the discipline to hang in there until his body literally fails, so although neither one of them can truly damage the other, I'd expect Kimimaro to hold his own longer. On top of that, Kimi is just a better fighter, in terms of skill.



You're ignoring the fact that feats wise Suigetsu has shown better speed (some of the scans given above, including, may or may not be limited to: Interrupting Ei and B's blitz from considerably high distance away, easily blitzing Spiral Zetsu without his realizing, the same being who was pressuring Gokage + Hiruzen + thousands of fodders, etc etc, blitzing Cii and going toe on toe with Darui forcing him to resort to lightning and whatnot, hell, his debut was with him appearing behind Sasuke w/o any sign.)

Suigetsu can easily keep up with Kimimaro whose best speed feat is that of being above drunken injured base Lee while using CS1, while Kimimaro does have better durability, all Suigetsu needs to do is put a blob around his head and drown him to death, even Kimimaro requires Oxygen.

According to OP, knowledge is limited so Kimimaro would probably try CQC, and would drown miserably, much like his dear friend Juugo.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

Shanal you already said that Suigetsu speaking doesn't fit in with the time frame and it was bs, yet you bring it up.

Also you misunderstood my post. I'm saying this ; imagine I punch a button, and that button the moment it gets touched releases a punch at me the same time, but way quicker. That's literally what I've been saying. The moment Suigetsu got hit was the moment Bee got hit literally after.  Thats why Bee had that exclamtion mark as he looked at Sasuke torpedoing at him with chidori, and the next panel you don't even see Bee having a semblance of a counter, even if it didn't work, something like instinct kicking in to guard  - like that bit were you said he would instinctively jump back.

Also first of all, Toshi Eton (?) is a special ninjutsu technique derived from the mass water from the lake. Suigestu getting punched and apparently holding Bee was not derived from any ninjutsu technique, it was just the water from his body with no ninjutsu backing it. Apples and oranges


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> Shanal you already said that Suigetsu speaking doesn't fit in with the time frame and it was bs, yet you bring it up.



It doesn't fit the time, but doesn't make sense either for Sasuke to charge up w/o Suigetsu's permission and screw him up with raiton, he cared for Taka, well, back then at least. Saying something along the lines of "Sasuke, quick!" "Get us!" or "Attack both!" would be rather quick and fitting for the situation. Taking in the fact that Suigetsu called him out and then he charged up, KB not even moving his hand would be ridiculous.



> Also you misunderstood my post. I'm saying this ; imagine I punch a button, and that button the moment it gets touched releases a punch at me the same time, but way quicker. That's literally what I've been saying. The moment Suigetsu got hit was the moment Bee got hit literally after.  Thats why Bee had that exclamtion mark as he looked at Sasuke torpedoing at him with chidori, and the next panel you don't even see Bee having a semblance of a counter, even if it didn't work, something like instinct kicking in to guard  - like that bit were you said he would instinctively jump back.



Saying the moment Suigetsu got the hit, B got the hit is pretty nice, but you're basing it off manga panels, obviously, so I am going to come up with a counter argument using the same panels because I can. Sasuke didn't charge before Suigetsu at least gave a quick command, you can't say otherwise, B had at least 1 or 2 seconds to react, yet he didn't move his arm. (To be honest, this entire scene is fucked up, I can't think but have my brain jiggle back at how poorly it's drawn, but whatever). If we take into account that Suigetsu got hit, then called out for Sasuke quickly, the scene should play out like this:

Kb hits Suigetsu, Suigetsu shouts in a second, KB pulls his fist back in meantime but has no effect surprising him, KB quickly realizes that Sasuke is charging up to them, before he can react he's zapped by Chidori.

Nothing changes the fact that KB at least had some time to remove his fist, but he didn't. Also, by the way, I just realized that Madara wasn't SAYING a sentence when Gai used Night Moth, he was actually THINKING about it, the speed of thought is actually pretty fast. 



> Also first of all, Toshi Eton (?) is a special ninjutsu technique derived from the mass water from the lake. Suigestu getting punched and apparently holding Bee was not derived from any ninjutsu technique, it was just the water from his body with no ninjutsu backing it. Apples and oranges



It's Tate Eboshi! T-a-t-e E-b-o-s-h-i. Anyway, the jutsu obviously has Suigetsu manipulating water via his own chakra and abilities, and then shaping it and hardening it. Suigetsu's own body is made up of water and Sui ka no jutsu allows him to control it freely, he can freely shape it and whatnot as shown numerous times (his own body was also semi-merged in the giant fish), if Suigetsu can harden foreign water with his chakra, I don't see why he can't harden his own body to hold someone in, they're both water, no? Just like you said earlier, Suigetsu IS water after all, with chakra flowing through his body.

Not to mention Suigetsu while holding B looked completely different from how he looks when someone punches him, not only his body was completely stable and there was only a sole hole in his stomach holding KB's fist, but also the fist didn't seem to completely smash his torso or go through him, it was half way through, and only that part of body was water, looked pretty unusual compared to when Karin punches him and such.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

You keep forgetting about the water impact happening when Bee has his arm in Suigestu because of the punch. And the next panel with Bee's face, with the water droplets from the punch still floating in mid air. That's how fast the events transpired. Not Suigestu talking. Sasuke has sharingan, he ain't done, his precog doesn't stop working.

Bee having 1 or 2 seconds to react means he has enough time for pulling his arm out of water with anything else but base strength as you have put it.

Please don't try to compare a ninjutsu technique with a name to a non-named manevour by Suigestu to harden his body to trap Bee, when Suigetsu in the same vein of ninjutsu techniques has one already that elaborates in expanding his muscles with water. E.g. Suigestu did not use ninjutsu to 'harden his body to trap Bee' means there is no such scenario.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> You keep forgetting about the water impact happening when Bee has his arm in Suigestu because of the punch and the next panel with Bee's face, with the water droplets from the punch still floating in mid air. That's how fast the events transpired. Not Suigestu talking.



This is getting nowhere though, you have a point with the panels, but that doesn't changes the fact that Suigetsu told Sasuke to come first and then Sasuke used chidori, either.  Just because one thing is in favor with you, you can't ignore the other thing which clearly disagrees, either. Sasuke wouldn't just go and screw him up with raiton for no reason given his affection towards him team during that part of the series.

If Bee has 1-2 seconds, he can pull his arm out before Sasuke can at least chidori, if it's only water, but he didn't.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> You know what makes no sense, believing Bee's arm was captured by Suigetsu's water which can't even hold a solid looking form after one of Karin's kicks. Even when the same panel you are saying Bee was actively trying to remove his arm out of, showed no indication of him doing so illustrative wise.
> 
> It makes sense, because there was a panel literally RIGHT before Bee got hit by Chidori, of him looking at Sasuke coming at him like a bullet train with an exclamation mark. The same Chidori which forces a person to move faster than their base speeds. And Sasuke, already fast, now moving faster, at a shorter distance, timing his attack to the point where Bee just finished his own attack, gets hit. On top of the fact that Bee, didn't even respond with a counter, even if one arm was trapped.
> 
> What, does Bee automatically shut down if one arm is disabled? A would not be proud of him...



It also doesn't look like kakashi or anyone else struggles much when captured in a water barrier. It's much more logical to assume that since, I don't know the water is HOLDING someone in the first place that maybe. Just maybe. Under the effect of their chakra it's not behaving like normal water. Otherwise whats the point of that being HIS ABILITY instead of just splashing water at people?

In other words, would YOU run up and wrap part of your body around someone knowing you can't hold them at all? It literally makes no sense.


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## Jad (Nov 28, 2015)

First of all. We both agree the scenario wasn't consistent with the time frame. However to say Bee was 1 or 2 seconds slow to pull out his arm after realizing it was stuck, during Suigetsu's sentence, let alone counter Sasuke, like arm hugification, then that's even more inconsistent. Since you say he would be too 'bizarred' out to respond. 

Kishimoto didn't show us Bee struggling to get out of the grasp of Suigestu, nor show him surprised his 'stuck'.  Literally no elaboration on Bee being stuck.

Maybe i should just say Bee was too distracted by the sudden burst of Suigetsu yelling out that he noticed too late that the opponent was rushing him.

Why do people keep saying Suigestu wrapped Bee in water. Bee punched him, water splashed everywhere,  and as Bee had his arm still drenched within Suigetsu body since the punch had just finished, Sasuke pretty much tagged him that very moment. Suigetsu and Sasuke took advantage of that very timed moment.


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## Shanal (Nov 28, 2015)

Jad said:


> First of all. We both agree the scenario wasn't consistent with the time frame. However to say Bee was 1 or 2 seconds slow to pull out his arm after realizing it was stuck, during Suigetsu's sentence, let alone counter Sasuke, like arm hugification, then that's even more inconsistent. Since you say he would be too 'bizarred' out to respond.
> 
> Kishimoto didn't show us Bee struggling to get out of the grasp of Suigestu, nor show him surprised his 'stuck'.  Literally no elaboration on Bee being stuck.
> 
> Maybe i should just say Bee was too distracted by the sudden burst of Suigetsu yelling out that he noticed too late that the opponent was rushing him.



He'd be bizarred if it was actually stuck though, on instinct Killer B, being a capable fighter, would probably pull away quickly.

Could be that, could be anything, though Suigetsu's entire plan of making KB do that and not jump away in advance to prevent getting shock + asking Sasuke to shock them BOTH falls more into the "being stuck" favor.

Though I do agree with the fact that the entire scene was messed up on Kishimoto's side.

Either way, your initial claim was Kimimaro wins this, I still haven't got an answer, what is it now? Because this argument by no means is related to 90% of the thread in general, it's just a part.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 28, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Suigetsu has been hinted to have poor stamina, constantly getting tired from walking and needing to drink a lot. Or he may just be lazy.



 He has to utilize chakra just to amplify his physical strength high enough to actually carry the blade.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 28, 2015)

Kimimaro should win this.
- Suigetsu tangoed equally with CS1 Jugo on two or three occasions throughout history, but the manga has stated that Base 10 year old Kimimaro defeated CS2 Jugo
- Kimimaro is Orochimaru's strongest subordinate, not Suigetsu. Kimimaro was one his favourites.
- Kimimaro was suggested to be Kage level by Kabuto.

The funny thing is Suigetsu is so fucking haxxed. Water gun is a one shot. Water bubble is a one shot. Suika no Jutsu is like the fucking logias from One Piece. He even tanked a Bijuu but yet his portrayal is below Kimimaros. The difference is that Suigetsu has feats and Kimimaro has hype. I just stated all of Suigetsus feats but Kimimaro nevertheless was suggested to be Kage level (he was stated in base to be stronger than CS2 Jugo who was relevant to the Raikage in an actual fight, and was stated to be so good that if he was at the Konoha crush the invasion would have gone smoothly and Orochimaru wouldnt have lost his arms, and also, Kimimaro was said to be Orochimaru's best subordinate not Suigetsu or anyone).

Ill go with Kimimaro because Suigetsu has feats but that doesnt mean we can ignore a characters hype. I know some will disagree with me, but lets look at it like this. Old Hiruzen's feats < Kakuzus feats but its been stated Old hiruzen > Yagura/Ei/Mei/Rasa, all of which are people that can kill Kakuzu so we just have to imagine a scenario were Hiruzen wins.

Suigetsu has better feats such as tangoing with Kisame, but based on feats and statements, we can deduct that Suigetsu = CS1 Jugo (portrayal and their on screen scuffles show this) but Base Kimimaro defeated CS2 Jugo (who kept up with Raikage) and remember that when we talk about feats, Kimimaro was sick during all his showings but like Healthy Itachi, we have never seen a Healthy Kimimaro so it doesnt exist, but the difference is Healthy Itachi has no portrayal as to where his strength level is, but we know what a Healthy Kimimaro can do. In Base, Healthy Kimimaro can fight on equal footing with Jugo. Suigetsu can handle a CS1 Jugo. Suigetsu didnt go all out so lets imagine he could just scrape being equal to CS2 JUgo. But that only makes him equal to Base Kimimaro. So CS1 Kimimaro > Suigetsu let alone CS2 Kimimaro.

OVERALL VERDICT
Suigetsu VS Sick Kimimaro: Draw, or Suigetsu scrapes a win.
Suigetsu VS Healthy Kimimaro: Kimimaro fucking stomps.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 28, 2015)

Its confusing. Suigetsu has very deadly hax in terms of offence and defence and can hold offf a Bijuu but by feats and portrayal he is equal to Stage 1 Jugo, who Base Kimimaro molests and rapes any day of the week whether his feats suggest it or not. For example, even if you turn Sannin into Jonin Sannin by restricting ET/SM/Shirohebi no Chikara/Sozo Saisei/Byakugo, their feats (i.e. Yomi Numa, Tsunades punches, Orochimarus arsenal of jutsu, Boss Summons) shit all over Hanzos feats but that doesnt change the fact Hanzo defeated them either way even if its strange how he managed to do it.

If someone asks me Jonin Sannin vs Hanzo i will say Hanzo wins 10/10 times just because the manga said so. He wins whether feats suggest it or not. Its the same in this thread. Suigetsu has beautiful feats, but Kimimaro's hype allows him to beat Suigetsu in the BD and no one can argue if the feats sugest so or not as thats ony half of the equation we have to consider hype to. Its been said Jiraiya can beat Pain so even if feats work in Pains favour Jiraiya can still win just because. Suigetsu has feats but Kimimaro wins just because.


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## Ghost (Nov 28, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Base 10 year old Kimimaro defeated CS2 Jugo


Juugo was also younger then. 



> Kimimaro is Orochimaru's strongest subordinate


Sasuke is/was*




> Kimimaro was suggested to be Kage level by Kabuto.



Hiruzen was suggested to be the strongest Kage ever.



> The funny thing is Suigetsu is so fucking haxxed. Water gun is a one shot. Water bubble is a one shot. Suika no Jutsu is like the fucking logias from One Piece. He even tanked a Bijuu but yet his portrayal is below Kimimaros. The difference is that Suigetsu has feats and Kimimaro has hype. I just stated all of Suigetsus feats but Kimimaro nevertheless was suggested to be Kage level (he was stated in base to be stronger than CS2 Jugo who was relevant to the Raikage in an actual fight, and was stated to be so good that if he was at the Konoha crush the invasion would have gone smoothly and Orochimaru wouldnt have lost his arms, and also, Kimimaro was said to be Orochimaru's best subordinate not Suigetsu or anyone).
> 
> Ill go with Kimimaro because Suigetsu has feats but that doesnt mean we can ignore a characters hype. I know some will disagree with me, but lets look at it like this. Old Hiruzen's feats < Kakuzus feats but its been stated Old hiruzen > Yagura/Ei/Mei/Rasa, all of which are people that can kill Kakuzu so we just have to imagine a scenario were Hiruzen wins.
> 
> Suigetsu has better feats such as tangoing with Kisame, but based on feats and statements, we can deduct that Suigetsu = CS1 Jugo (portrayal and their on screen scuffles show this) but Base Kimimaro defeated CS2 Jugo (who kept up with Raikage) and remember that when we talk about feats, Kimimaro was sick during all his showings but like Healthy Itachi, we have never seen a Healthy Kimimaro so it doesnt exist, but the difference is Healthy Itachi has no portrayal as to where his strength level is, but we know what a Healthy Kimimaro can do. In Base, Healthy Kimimaro can fight on equal footing with Jugo. Suigetsu can handle a CS1 Jugo. Suigetsu didnt go all out so lets imagine he could just scrape being equal to CS2 JUgo. But that only makes him equal to Base Kimimaro. So CS1 Kimimaro > Suigetsu let alone CS2 Kimimaro.



Quickly read through this. So you are basically admitting that you let your personal bias and fanboyism come before feats and base your verdict on that?


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## Shanal (Nov 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> manga has stated that Base 10 year old Kimimaro defeated CS2 Jugo



Juugo was younger and not even a trained shinobi back then.


> - Kimimaro is Orochimaru's strongest subordinate, not Suigetsu. Kimimaro was one his favourites.



Suigetsu fucking hated Orochimaru.



> - Kimimaro was suggested to be Kage level by Kabuto.



And feat-wise he isn't beating Suigetsu.



> The funny thing is Suigetsu is so fucking haxxed. Water gun is a one shot. Water bubble is a one shot. Suika no Jutsu is like the fucking logias from One Piece. He even tanked a Bijuu but yet his portrayal is below Kimimaros. The difference is that Suigetsu has feats and Kimimaro has hype. I just stated all of Suigetsus feats but Kimimaro nevertheless was suggested to be Kage level (he was stated in base to be stronger than CS2 Jugo who was relevant to the Raikage in an actual fight, and was stated to be so good that if he was at the Konoha crush the invasion would have gone smoothly and Orochimaru wouldnt have lost his arms, and also, Kimimaro was said to be Orochimaru's best subordinate not Suigetsu or anyone).



Portrayal doesn't matter. Suigetsu feat-wise is faster than Kimimaro, and has better defenses (Sui ka) than Kimimaro, and given no knowledge here, he drowns Kimimaro. 

Suigetsu wasn't Orochimaru's subordinate to begin with, he would have back stabbed.



> Ill go with Kimimaro because Suigetsu has feats but that doesnt mean we can ignore a characters hype. I know some will disagree with me, but lets look at it like this. Old Hiruzen's feats < Kakuzus feats but its been stated Old hiruzen > Yagura/Ei/Mei/Rasa, all of which are people that can kill Kakuzu so we just have to imagine a scenario were Hiruzen wins.



Kimimaro is a character who has shown his feats too, and feats > hype. When Kabuto said that Hiruzen was "known" as strongest, he meant fame, and fame usually comes from prime time. Suigetsu stomps, anyway.



> Suigetsu has better feats such as tangoing with Kisame, but based on feats and statements, we can deduct that Suigetsu = CS1 Jugo (portrayal and their on screen scuffles show this) but Base Kimimaro defeated CS2 Jugo (who kept up with Raikage) and remember that when we talk about feats, Kimimaro was sick during all his showings but like Healthy Itachi, we have never seen a Healthy Kimimaro so it doesnt exist, but the difference is Healthy Itachi has no portrayal as to where his strength level is, but we know what a Healthy Kimimaro can do. In Base, Healthy Kimimaro can fight on equal footing with Jugo. Suigetsu can handle a CS1 Jugo. Suigetsu didnt go all out so lets imagine he could just scrape being equal to CS2 JUgo. But that only makes him equal to Base Kimimaro. So CS1 Kimimaro > Suigetsu let alone CS2 Kimimaro.



Suigetsu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CS1 Jugo. He fucking drowned him in an instant. 

Base Kimimaro NEVER defeated CS2 Juugo in manga, nothing shows that. Suigetsu >>>>>>> CS2 Juugo by feats, by the way, much faster and can still drown him. Suigetsu is faster than Kimimaro too, and again, can drown him.


> OVERALL VERDICT
> Suigetsu VS Sick Kimimaro: *Suigetsu stomps*
> Suigetsu VS Healthy Kimimaro: *Suigetsu stomps*.



Corrected.

Man, you clearly admitting in this entire post that you're biased, you say that you disregard feats just to prefer hype which is by no means related to Suigetsu anyway. You put Kimimaro as Orochimaru's favorite while Suigetsu hated Orochimaru and Kimimaro was loyal. You disregard the fact that Suigetsu is clearly faster and can drown Kimimaro anyway but state Kimimaro stomps for no reason.

Your post is like this "Suigetsu is stronger, and can destroy Kimimaro by feats but I prefer fanboyism and unrelated hype above feats"

Seriously, Izaya, what the hell?


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## Jad (Nov 30, 2015)

Thanks for the rep Shanal. Now, Rocky (poster) had this beauty about sentences being said in moments of heightened speed .

Suigetsu talking before water droplets fell to the ground is another. Suigetsu screaming out too Sasuke is to me is just showing us how coordinated and timed the situation with Sasuke was. You can if you think makes sense, say Bee was distracted from it all. But really, it happened in a too small of a time interval for Bee to remove his hand, since he didn't move his body any counter/defensive form when Sasuke attacked.

For that reason, I don't believe Gai will or can get his hand stuck in Suigetsu. Even if he does, he lifts Suigetsu high into the air with his arm in him, and with full force slams Suigetsu body into the ground with full impact dispersing the water with strength that even impressed Obito. Any crawling water trying to wrap around Gai will be noticed, like he noticed the smallest of twitch from Kisame's finger underwater.


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## Shanal (Nov 30, 2015)

Jad said:


> For that reason, I don't believe Gai will or can get his hand stuck in Suigetsu. Even if he does, he lifts Suigetsu high into the air with his arm in him, and with full force slams Suigetsu body into the ground with full impact dispersing the water with strength that even impressed Obito. Any crawling water trying to wrap around Gai will be noticed, like he noticed the smallest of twitch from Kisame's finger underwater.



Characters speaking while fast scenes never really made sense, but one cannot deny the fact that Sasuke didn't jump in BEFORE Suigetsu called him out, otherwise it'd make no sense. Not to mention Suigetsu's actions of not jumping in advance or such imply being stuck as well.

Gai can't remove crawling water stuck to his body, taking a mere second to get to his head and drowning him, it's not like Gai is "HOLY SHIT CAN'T BE SEEN" faster than Suigetsu, the person who not only interrupted a direct blitz from Ei and B from distance away, but also managed to easily blitz Spiral Zetsu, the being who pressured Gokage + Hiruzen + fodder shinobi alone. 

If Gai attacks Suigetsu in base and lands a hit, I can by all means see Gai drowning.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 30, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Juugo was also younger then.


So was Kimimaro. And he didnt have CS back then as it didnt exist until after Base Kimimaro stomped CS2 Jugo, became his best friend, and brought him to Orochimaru.





> Sasuke is/was*


Kimimaro was before Sasuke thats what i meant to say.





> Hiruzen was suggested to be the strongest Kage ever.


He was suggested to be strongest gokage of his time. He can beat Yagura/Mei, Rasa/Kid Gaara, any Raikage and Onoki. I beleive so although i know others wont agree.





> Quickly read through this. So you are basically admitting that you let your personal bias and fanboyism come before feats and base your verdict on that?


It was Kishimoto that stated all those things. I didnt make it up on the spot





Shanal said:


> Juugo was younger and not even a trained shinobi back then.


You have no evidence to support that claim. 





> Suigetsu fucking hated Orochimaru.


So fucking what. That doesnt change his power level. So youre saying Orochimaru would have changed his mind and said Suigetsu was stronger if Suigetsu sucked Orochimaru's dick Jirobo, Tayuya and all the others did? Very bad logic.





> And feat-wise he isn't beating Suigetsu.


Just because one doesn't have Raiton doesn't mean they cant beat Suigetsu. Orochimaru captured Suigetsu with his own two hands and he doesn't use Raiton. Its like Tsunade (Byakugo) or Itachi (Yata Mirror). If you can outlast them to the point where their hax defence expires, then you can beat them. 





> Portrayal doesn't matter.


It does matter.





> Suigetsu feat-wise is faster than Kimimaro,


No. 1) No he isnt. Prove me wrong if he is. I read you're analysis thread by the way and nothing there suggests he is faster.
No. 2) I don't care even if he is. Speed is only one factor in a battle. Its not a deciding factor. Did Raikage kill Sasuke? Did Gai kill Madara? Did Lee kill Kimimaro? Did Kabuto kill Tsunade





> and has better defenses (Sui ka) than Kimimaro, and given no knowledge here, he drowns Kimimaro.


 Jugo is a mad brute who doesnt know where he is going. Kimimaro is intelligent, sharp, has good reflexes, and was stronge enough to break out from 200 m deep of compressed sand so isnt getting killed by a water bubble. Kimimaro is gonna burst his bubble no pun intended.





> Suigetsu wasn't Orochimaru's subordinate to begin with, he would have back stabbed.


He was his subordinate. Check Databook or NarutoWiki. He is part of Otogakure. Check the war arc where he following Orochimaru's instructions such as when they helped get Tsunade back into action. Suigetsu is a hard man and a cool guy but he wet his pants quietly anytime Orochimaru entered the room. He wanted to get rid of him just like Sasuke did, but still served him anyway because he had to in order to survive/get stronger





> Kimimaro is a character who has shown his feats too, and feats > hype. When Kabuto said that Hiruzen was "known" as strongest, he meant fame, and fame usually comes from prime time. Suigetsu stomps, anyway.


Fame doesnt matter. Power is power whether people know about it or not. The Sannin are more famous than Nagato but who is stronger? As for power, it is stated Kimimaro is the strongest of Orochimaru's subordinates (recently replaced by Sasuke) so he is. He may not have on panel feats but in Base he defeated CS2 Jugo, who based on portrayal and feats is an opponent Suigetsu doesnt really have a chance of beating.





> Suigetsu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CS1 Jugo. He fucking drowned him in an instant.


And CS2 Kimimaro >>>>>>>>>>> CS1 Kimimaro >> Base Kimimaro >>>> CS2 Jugo. Is CS2 Jugo > Suigetsu? Yes. Without a doubt. Hanzo's feats arent as good as Suigetsus but while Hanzo can beat 3 Sannin Suigetsu, like other Jonin on his tier (Kakashi, Yamato) wouldnt even dare to fight one Sannin let lone 3. So taking that into account, if i asked you whould would win a fight between Hanzo and Suigetsu, who would you say wins





> Base Kimimaro NEVER defeated CS2 Juugo in manga,


He did they jus didnt show the fight. 





> nothing shows that. Suigetsu >>>>>>> CS2 Juugo by feats,


 What feats? Bring me the feats. Can Suigetsu keep up with V2 Raikage or defeat Base Kimimaro? The manga does not suggest so. If it does, bring me panels that prove me wrong and bring me panels that disprove the hype statements that were made and also have to be taken into cinsideration as hype and feats are both 50% of the same equation. Character A can have feats better than Character B, but if Character B can defeat Character C, who Character A cannot beat, and is closer to Character D in power while Character A has admitted inferiority to Character D, then Character A cannot beat Character C. 





> by the way, much faster and can still drown him.


Much slower and wouldnt lad a droplet of water on CS2 Jugo.





> Suigetsu is faster than Kimimaro too, and again, can drown him.


The manga doesnt agree with you. Either does Orochimaru or Kabuto or Kishimoto. Corrected.





> Please. Bitch please.





> Man, you clearly admitting in this entire post that you're biased, you say that you disregard feats just to prefer hype which is by no means related to Suigetsu anyway. You put Kimimaro as Orochimaru's favorite while Suigetsu hated Orochimaru and Kimimaro was loyal. You disregard the fact that Suigetsu is clearly faster and can drown Kimimaro anyway but state Kimimaro stomps for no reason.


It was never stated who was a favourite. Orochimaru had lots of favourites like Kimimaro, Sakon, Sasuke, Karin, Jugo, Suigetsu as he valued their abilities. It was stated Kimimaro was Orochimarus strongest subordinates. In Part 1 he valued Kimimaro as a host more than Sasuke, until he fell sick. He even said if he wasnt sick he would have left Sasuke for three years. Suigetsu was never even an option. Like i said, Suigetsu's feats >>> Hanzo's feats but Suigetsu wouldnt dare to fight a single Sannin while Hanzo can stalemate three of them. I cant remember but im like 70% sure Orochimaru in SRA arc said "Kimimaro is almost as strong as myself". Suigetsu didnt dare to disobey Orochimaru. Like Kakashi and Yamato he shat himself anytime he encountered him, suggesting Suigetsu is Elite Jounin tier. Kimimaro is easily a Low Kage, based on feats and hype.





> Your post is like this "Suigetsu is stronger, and can destroy Kimimaro by feats but I prefer fanboyism and unrelated hype above feats"


How is it unrelated. If the manga has stated (indirectly through distant comparisons) that Kimimaro > Suigetsu how can you argue. Lets go back in time to where Hashirama VS Madara wasnt shown. Even then they stated Hashirama > Madara and no one tried to argue Madara > Hashirama, like you people are doing here. Suigetsu has been portrayed as jugos equal and both have been constantly portrayed as below Kimimaro, via Jugos feats and statements made concerning Suigetsu, Orochimaru and Kimimaro





> Seriously, Izaya, what the hell?


If you can prove to me that Madara is stronger than Hashirama, or that young Sannin are stronger than Hanzo, then i can take your arguments into consideration but until then Kimimaro is stronger than Suigetsu. Boss Summons are hax. Hanzo has no feats that suggest he can defeat Manda (hes poison resistant and Katsuyu probably is too) but that didnt stop Hanzo from beating them. *We don't always see a character's full potential and this applies especially where it concerns Kimimaro.* _I know my post is somewhat biased but go and argue with Kishimoto and ask him to refute statements he made in his manga and then we can talk._


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## Shanal (Nov 30, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> So was Kimimaro. And he didnt have CS back then as it didnt exist until after Base Kimimaro stomped CS2 Jugo, became his best friend, and brought him to Orochimaru.



Man, use spaces, I had to delete and copy paste to reply to you. Anyway, Suigetsu fodderizes CS2 Juugo any time given. And in manga Kimimaro only managed to beat CS1, correct me if wrong.



> You have no evidence to support that claim.



Juugo was younger... why wouldn't he be? And Juugo originally wasn't a Shinobi, it's known fact, lol. He wandered around and killed.



> So fucking what. That doesnt change his power level. So youre saying Orochimaru would have changed his mind and said Suigetsu was stronger if Suigetsu sucked Orochimaru's dick Jirobo, Tayuya and all the others did? Very bad logic.



No, I am saying that Suigetsu never worked under Orochimaru and was a captive, unlike Kimimaro who worked under him and followed orders 



> Just because one doesn't have Raiton doesn't mean they cant beat Suigetsu. Orochimaru captured Suigetsu with his own two hands and he doesn't use Raiton. Its like Tsunade (Byakugo) or Itachi (Yata Mirror). If you can outlast them to the point where their hax defence expires, then you can beat them.



These examples are non-factor, tell me how Kimimaro would beat him, lol, Kimimaro is slower than Suigetsu feat-wise and would get drowned.



> It does matter.



Feats > portrayal. And Kimimaro was never portrayed as stronger than Suigetsu. Kimimaro was subordinate, Suigetsu was captive. It's not hard to understand.



> No. 1) No he isnt. Prove me wrong if he is. I read you're analysis thread by the way and nothing there suggests he is faster.
> No. 2) I don't care even if he is. Speed is only one factor in a battle. Its not a deciding factor. Did Raikage kill Sasuke? Did Gai kill Madara? Did Lee kill Kimimaro? Did Kabuto kill Tsunade



Interrupting blitz from Ei and B. Blitzing Spiral Zetsu who pressured Gokage + Hiruzen edo + 1000 of shinobi.

Kimimaro's best speed feat is beating an injured drunken base Lee in CS1, and he was stated to be slower in CS2. And in base non drunken injured base Lee > Kimimaro.

Yes, Suigetsu is faster by feats.

And yes, it's not deciding factor, but when Kimimaro has nothing to damage Suigetsu while Suigetsu can just drown him, it is the only factor.

Your argument is so pointless that you can't even tell me a WAY by which Kimimaro can win against someone faster who can just drown him.

Your argument is like "Kimimaro is strongest subordinate so he must be >>>> a captive who wasn't Orochimaru's subordinate."



> Jugo is a mad brute who doesnt know where he is going. Kimimaro is intelligent, sharp, has good reflexes, and was stronge enough to break out from 200 m deep of compressed sand so isnt getting killed by a water bubble. Kimimaro is gonna burst his bubble no pun intended.



Kimimaro isn't breaking out of water, strength doesn't help when you're drowning. It's not really a bubble, it's literally water around you. And Kimimaro has no knowledge as given by OP, Kimimaro tries CQC and drowns.



> He was his subordinate. Check Databook or NarutoWiki. He is part of Otogakure. Check the war arc where he following Orochimaru's instructions such as when they helped get Tsunade back into action. Suigetsu is a hard man and a cool guy but he wet his pants quietly anytime Orochimaru entered the room. He wanted to get rid of him just like Sasuke did, but still served him anyway because he had to in order to survive/get stronger



He never worked for Orochimaru, you have no proof, he was kept captive and was freed by Sasuke. Subordinates are those who willingly work for you, Suigetsu wasn't one of them. Also, he is part of Otokagure because he lived his life there when in captive.

Also, when Kimimaro was stated to be strongest subordinate, Suigetsu was Sasuke's age 

Your argument is so crappy that it isn't supported by any feat at all.



> Fame doesnt matter. Power is power whether people know about it or not. The Sannin are more famous than Nagato but who is stronger? As for power, it is stated Kimimaro is the strongest of Orochimaru's subordinates (recently replaced by Sasuke) so he is. He may not have on panel feats but in Base he defeated CS2 Jugo, who based on portrayal and feats is an opponent Suigetsu doesnt really have a chance of beating.



Feats > portrayal. Kimimaro was stated to be Orochimaru's strongest subordinate, so he must be > post-skip Sasuke too? This thread is about post-skip Suigetsu vs Kimimaro.

Stop with your portrayal wank, Izaya, that's the only reason why noone takes you seriously in sannin discussion threat (even though most of your points might be valid), you ignore feats and go spouting things like "Senju > Uchiha so Tsunade > Itachi".

Suigetsu by feats stomps on Kimimaro.



> And CS2 Kimimaro >>>>>>>>>>> CS1 Kimimaro >> Base Kimimaro >>>> CS2 Jugo. Is CS2 Jugo > Suigetsu? Yes. Without a doubt. Hanzo's feats arent as good as Suigetsus but while Hanzo can beat 3 Sannin Suigetsu, like other Jonin on his tier (Kakashi, Yamato) wouldnt even dare to fight one Sannin let lone 3. So taking that into account, if i asked you whould would win a fight between Hanzo and Suigetsu, who would you say wins



Kimimaro while young didn't even beat CS2 Juugo, no proof, he defeated CS1.

Also, Suigetsu >>>>> CS2 Juugo feat-wise. Juugo's chakra cannons take time to charge, Suigetsu dodges them before he launches them, they're linear. Also, Juugo is a mad brute who rushes, Suigetsu drowns him instantly.



> He did they jus didnt show the fight.



Proof? They said he defeated Juugo, not CS2.



> What feats? Bring me the feats. Can Suigetsu keep up with V2 Raikage or defeat Base Kimimaro? The manga does not suggest so. If it does, bring me panels that prove me wrong and bring me panels that disprove the hype statements that were made and also have to be taken into cinsideration as hype and feats are both 50% of the same equation. Character A can have feats better than Character B, but if Character B can defeat Character C, who Character A cannot beat, and is closer to Character D in power while Character A has admitted inferiority to Character D, then Character A cannot beat Character C.



I ain't reading it all, but Suigetsu managed to blitz Spiral Zetsu and interrupted blitzes from KB and Ei, and when he was interrupting blitz from KB, Juugo was like far, far away, and in CS2 he has no visible speed boost either.



> Much slower and wouldnt lad a droplet of water on CS2 Jugo.



Interrupting KB and Ei blitz + blitzing Spiral Zetsu >>> beating a drunken injured base Lee with CS1.

Seriously Izaya, your argument is crappy, at least I am showing feats for Suigetsu and you're neglecting them claiming "Kimimaro is faster because he is, because Kabuto said he's strongest subordinate. Kimimaro wins because he's strongest subordinate. Even though Suigetsu was 12 years old back then and wasn't even following Orochimaru and we DON'T EVEN FUCKING KNOW IF SUIGETSU WAS EVEN CAPTURED BACK THEN."


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 30, 2015)

Shanal you're argument is just as crappy as mine. The manga stated Kimimaro is Orochimaru's most powerful subordinate. Then you pull at straws by coming up with BS like "Suigetsu isn't Orochimaru's subordinate". Lets imagine in Chunin Exam arc it was stated Hashirama is strongest Konoha ninja of all time. Would it be fair for me to say Tsunade > Hashirama because at the time she wasnt in Konoha and wasnt following Hokage's orders. And your argument is silly since i have proof Suigetsu is in fact a subordinate of Orochimaru.



> subordinate
> adjective
> səˈbɔːdɪnət/
> 1.
> ...




HE FOUGHT JUGO BECAUSE OROCHIMARU TOLD HIM TO


AGAIN WE HAVE SUIGETSU COMPLETING TASKS AT OROCHIMARU'S COMMAND

Kimimaro (strongest subordinate) > Suigetsu (regular subordinate) I dont care who has better feats. Hanzo doesnt have better feats than Sannin Trio combined but he beat them anyway as we dont alwayssee a character's full potential in this manga, whcih focuses solely on Naruto and the Uchiha. You need to start taking the manga into account instead of just staring constantly at this one page:


And to believe you said i wank the Sannin.


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## Shanal (Dec 1, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Shanal you're argument is just as crappy as mine.



So you admit yours is crappy?

I am not going to read much and just state holes in your argument anyway.

-We don't know if Suigetsu was even with Orochimaru when Kimimaro died.

-Suigetsu was 12 years old back then, and could've by all means been weaker.

-Suigetsu never once was stated to be Orochimaru's subordinate before being released by Sasuke. in fact he even stated he wasn't as shown here and here he admits he was a captive.]

-The only scans you showed me was that of after Taka formed and Orochimaru became alive once again, those scans don't mean anything to me. The only scan of past you posted was Suigetsu claiming he fought Juugo, he could've just been thrown into an arena for all you know and forced to fight him. Suigetsu, as a matter of fact, clearly admitted in the link I posted above that he is *not* a subordinate. Never was. Just because someone is doing task in the future because his LEADER is FOLLOWING Orochimaru and letting him guide them for a while, it doesn't mean Orochimaru was his subordinate 3 years ago. You're being retarded as fuck right now.

-So basically, you don't know if Suigetsu was even a captive when Kimimaro was killed. Suigetsu was young when it happened and by all means could've been weaker. Aaand your "proof" of Suigetsu being subordinate aren't even "proof" because they aren't even related to the time of Kimimaro's death. I clearly just posted a scan of Suigetsu saying "I ain't a subordinate", what else do you need 


> I dont care who has better feats.



That's why people don't take you seriously, you don't care about feats if they're against you, but when they aren't?

Itachi was stated to be > Orochimaru multiple times in manga, but you use *feats* to claim he can beat Itachi.

Honestly Izaya, don't neglect feats over half-assed hype which didn't even mean anything related to Suigetsu.


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 1, 2015)

Shanal said:


> So you admit yours is crappy?


Its not crappy but if it is classified as crappy then so is yours as you have no evidence. Its been stated Kimimaro > Suigetsu. Why are you ignoring that. Why is it that so many ppeople on NF just ignore the manga and just imagine themselves in bed with their favourite character.



> I am not going to read much and just state holes in your argument anyway.


I wont read your shit either.



> -We don't know if Suigetsu was even with Orochimaru when Kimimaro died.


He was. He fought Jugo back in the day kimimaro was around. Suigetsu even knew who he was.

You're clutching at straws now and im enjoying watching you do it. First Suigetsu isnt Oro's subordinate but when you realised how stupid that proposition was you resort to saying he wasnt there at the same time as Kimimaro. Kimimaro was in Otogakure before Suigetsu lol if you revise the timeline facts.



> -Suigetsu was 12 years old back then, and could've by all means been weaker.


So was Jugo and so was Kimimaro. They were both younger.



> -Suigetsu never once was stated to be Orochimaru's subordinate before being released by Sasuke. in fact he even stated he wasn't as shown here and here he admits he was a captive.]


Same thing really. He's just bitter because Orochimaru picked him up from his cradle and raped him. The Sound 4 were captives too but when they heard they could get stronger they started sucking Orochimaru's dick. Sasuke wasnt exactly on good terms with Oro either. He got his neck bitten in FoD and got lured into Otogakure. Same thing really. Suigestu said "we were all after Orochimaru" but it doesnt really matter if he was a captive or not cos i gave you two occasions where he followed Orochimaru's orders.


> I am not going to read much and just state holes in your argument anyway.


Because i have evidence and you do not. You're just wanking a Jonin level character's abilities and making him out to be better than the people hes been stated to be weaker than. Next thing youll say Suigetsu can beat Jiraiya lol. Why are you doing this. I like Suigetsu but when people wank a charcter i hate them. Itachi was my fav Akatsuki and Roronoa Zoro was my fav Straw Hat but now i hate them cos people overhype them and its annoying. Dont make me hate Suigetsu too cos i love him.



> -The only scans you showed me was that of after Taka formed and Orochimaru became alive once again, those scans don't mean anything to me. The only scan of past you posted was Suigetsu claiming he fought Juugo, he could've just been thrown into an arena for all you know and forced to fight him.


And who would have been the guy that threw him into that arena? Lord Orochimaru.



> Suigetsu, as a matter of fact, clearly admitted in the link I posted above that he is *not* a subordinate. Never was. Just because someone is doing task in the future because his LEADER is FOLLOWING Orochimaru and letting him guide them for a while, it doesn't mean Orochimaru was his subordinate 3 years ago. You're being retarded as fuck right now.


Im gonna make a thread on this. Ill ask everyone.


> -So basically, you don't know if Suigetsu was even a captive when Kimimaro was killed. Suigetsu was young when it happened and by all means could've been weaker. Aaand your "proof" of Suigetsu being subordinate aren't even "proof" because they aren't even related to the time of Kimimaro's death. I clearly just posted a scan of Suigetsu saying "I ain't a subordinate", what else do you need


 He was a captive then. He knew Kimi. And twice he has followed orders of Oro.



> That's why people don't take you seriously, you don't care about feats if they're against you, but when they aren't?


I do care about feats but that doesnt mean i can ignore everything else. Hanzo doesnt have better feats than the Sannin Trio but he can beat them cos the manga said so. Ill listen to Kishi more than you.



> Itachi was stated to be > Orochimaru multiple times in manga, but you use *feats* to claim he can beat Itachi.


It was also stated Itachi is weaker than Jiraiya who Oro (full power not weakened) can beat so we have a loophole.


> Itachi was stated to be > Orochimaru multiple times in manga, but you use *feats* to claim he can beat Itachi.


But anytime it was stated it was stated by people that didnt know Orochimaru's full power (i.e. Sasuke) or it wa sstated by Orochimaru when he was weakened and had low self esteem. And the feats match that description as Itachi has never beaten a full power Oro. Also, he admitted inferiority to a Full Power Jiraiya who Oro can beat at full power. Theres an ABC logic thread in the BD. See my recent posts there and that explains it more in depth.

The argument is more in my favour. Have you heard about Occam's Razor before? Seacrh that up quickly.



> Honestly Izaya, don't neglect feats over half-assed hype which didn't even mean anything related to Suigetsu.


Go ask Kishi then im tired of arguing with ignorant people who pull at straws hoplessly. If you want to believe Suigetsu > Momoshiki then beleiev that i dont really care.


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 1, 2015)

And in the scan i posted Karin says "in the whole organisation (oto) Kimi is the onyl one i could exeriment on without fear of violence or resistamce". Karin also said she experimneted on Suigetsu. Suigetsu said so himself. He is a part of that organsiation wheter he or you like it or not.


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## Shanal (Dec 1, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> He was. He fought Jugo back in the day kimimaro was around. Suigetsu even knew who he was.



Wrong, he fought Juugo, just that, not back in the days when Kimimaro was around. He fought Juugo, in past, which could be those 3 years of when Kimimaro remained _dead._ Knowing someone's name =/= being around when he was there, Kimimaro was famous, even Suigetsu just said "i heard about him"

Nothing suggests that he was around when Kimimaro was, don't bullshit me.



> You're clutching at straws now and im enjoying watching you do it. First Suigetsu isnt Oro's subordinate but when you realised how stupid that proposition was you resort to saying he wasnt there at the same time as Kimimaro. Kimimaro was in Otogakure before Suigetsu lol if you revise the timeline facts.



Not really, I just posted a thing which proved that Suigetsu is not his subordinate, did you even check out my link? If you're not going to reply to 60% of my argument, I won't talk to you Izaya, answer them all.




> So was Jugo and so was Kimimaro. They were both younger.



Err, no, Suigetsu is same age as Sasuke, thus when Kimimaro died, he was 12, but Suigetsu continued to age and grow stronger while Kimimaro apparently remained _dead._



> Same thing really. He's just bitter because Orochimaru picked him up from his cradle and raped him. The Sound 4 were captives too but when they heard they could get stronger they started sucking Orochimaru's dick. Sasuke wasnt exactly on good terms with Oro either. He got his neck bitten in FoD and got lured into Otogakure. Same thing really. Suigestu said "we were all after Orochimaru" but it doesnt really matter if he was a captive or not cos i gave you two occasions where he followed Orochimaru's orders.



Suigetsu said "Unlike me, Karin was a subordinate" that is clearly him stating that he wasn't subordinate. Your bullshit "hints" are nowhere near as good as this "fact"



> Because i have evidence and you do not. You're just wanking a Jonin level character's abilities and making him out to be better than the people hes been stated to be weaker than. Next thing youll say Suigetsu can beat Jiraiya lol. Why are you doing this. I like Suigetsu but when people wank a charcter i hate them. Itachi was my fav Akatsuki and Roronoa Zoro was my fav Straw Hat but now i hate them cos people overhype them and its annoying. Dont make me hate Suigetsu too cos i love him.



I am using feats, you're saying Kimimaro just because he was strongest subordinate when Suigetsu was young, he should be > older and stronger Suigetsu. Plus, Suigetsu said he wasn't subordinate, you're ignoring the straight up fact.

Captive =/= subordinate. Subordinate are those who work under you, Suigetsu didn't.

Sound 4 were Orochimaru's elite squad, Suigetsu and Juugo weren't in there, so S4 > Suigetsu and Juugo? 



> And who would have been the guy that threw him into that arena? Lord Orochimaru.



That doesn't mean he followed orders, he was thrown into prison and was forced to fight. Much different. Doesn't proves he was subordinate.



> Im gonna make a thread on this. Ill ask everyone.
> He was a captive then. He knew Kimi. And twice he has followed orders of Oro.



People already dislike your "ill ignore feat" argument, Izaya.



> I do care about feats but that doesnt mean i can ignore everything else. Hanzo doesnt have better feats than the Sannin Trio but he can beat them cos the manga said so. Ill listen to Kishi more than you.



Hanzo has feat of beating Sannin. Kimimaro didn't beat Suigetsu. Your logic is Kimimaro pre-skip > stronger than Suigetsu post-skip for no reason.

So let's say Kimimaro pre-skip is > Sasuke post-skip too, because why not?


> Go ask Kishi then im tired of arguing with ignorant people who pull at straws hoplessly. If you want to believe Suigetsu > Momoshiki then beleiev that i dont really care.



Well, I use feats, you don't.

You're comparing Kimimaro, who was stated to be strongest swordsman in past to Suigetsu who is what he is currently.

Even if Suigetsu was a subordinate, you're comparing 12 years Suigetsu to Kimimaro (during his death time) rather than current Suigetsu to Kimimaro.

Plus, Suigetsu straight up said that he wasn't Orochimaru's subordinate, that is a pure and perfect evidence,  you show me an evidence where it's stated that Suigetsu was a subordinate rather than evidences where it "hints" that Suigetsu was one?


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 2, 2015)

Shanal. Stop it now. It's just getting silly.



Shanal said:


> Wrong, he fought Juugo, just that, not back in the days when Kimimaro was around. He fought Juugo, in past, which could be those 3 years of when Kimimaro remained _dead._ Knowing someone's name =/= being around when he was there, Kimimaro was famous, even Suigetsu just said "i heard about him"


Kimimaro wasn't world famous like Kakashi or the Sannin. He was famous in the Water Country because the Kaguya Clan ransacked Kirigakure, the village Suigetsu came from. He possibly knew him from there, and Kimi was recruited before Suigetsu, and he knew him as an Oto shinobi too. They were close all their lives. They came from the same country and same village of Otogakure later on. Suigetsu knew exactly who Kimimaro was and what he was capable of and never implied he could beat him. Suigetsu's portrayal is equal to Jugo's, who can't beat Kimimaro. Kimimaro's portrayal is equal to Start of Part 2 Sasuke, who is better than Suigetsu. It has been stated that Kimimaro is the strongest Otogakure Shinobi besides Sasuke (he took this title during the period that Kimimaro was dead), Orochimaru (the Kage) and possibly Kabuto (depedning on how you look at the statements).


> Nothing suggests that he was around when Kimimaro was, don't bullshit me.


Kimimaro was recruited before he was.



> Not really, I just posted a thing which proved that Suigetsu is not his subordinate, did you even check out my link? If you're not going to reply to 60% of my argument, I won't talk to you Izaya, answer them all.


I didnt open the links as i saw the panels while i was binge reading Itachi pursuit arc. I know what he said but like i stated in the Konoha library thread that is counterpart to this, its a mixed story. ONE statement implies Suigetsu isnt a subordinate but TWO feats suggest Suigetsu is in fact a subordinate. Also, he is an Otogakure Shinobi in the Databook whether you like it or not.



> Err, no, Suigetsu is same age as Sasuke, thus when Kimimaro died, he was 12, but Suigetsu continued to age and grow stronger while Kimimaro apparently remained _dead._


Danzo grew stronger while Hashirama was dead but does that mean he surpassed him? I'm not saying people can't improve, but since you like tangible evidence, post me one scan that implies Suigetsu has surpassed Kimimaro. Because i can post scans of Danzo using Koto but that doesnt mean he ever surpassed Hashirama, even if Koto looks better than anything Hashi has, just like Tate Eboshi may look better than anything Kimi has used.



> Suigetsu said "Unlike me, Karin was a subordinate" that is clearly him stating that he wasn't subordinate. Your bullshit "hints" are nowhere near as good as this "fact"


Okay, Suigetsu is stronger than Kimimaro then. Fine, but you also have to agree Rusty Tsunade (was not a Konoha Shinobi at the time) is stronger than Hashirama (strongest Konoha nin) just cos she only loosely fits into that category.



> I am using feats, you're saying Kimimaro just because he was strongest subordinate when Suigetsu was young, he should be > older and stronger Suigetsu. Plus, Suigetsu said he wasn't subordinate, you're ignoring the straight up fact.


So Tsunade Search Arc must be better than Hashirama as she wasnt a Konoha ninja then. Or she is a jonin. Kakashi was stated to be best Jonin but Shizune doesnt fit into that category of Konoha jonin so Shizune > Kakashi. 

See how your logic works?
SRA Sasuke/Shizune/Rusty Tsunade >>> Hashirama if you go by your logic.



> Captive =/= subordinate. Subordinate are those who work under you, Suigetsu didn't.


Yes he did. Both before and after he was freed. Besides, he is an experiment. Experiments dont do missions, special squads like the Sound 5 do but i dont care wheteher he is a subordinate or not cos i can prove Kimi can fight on par with Raikage (who rapes Suigetsu).



> Sound 4 were Orochimaru's elite squad, Suigetsu and Juugo weren't in there, so S4 > Suigetsu and Juugo?


The difference is Elite Squad doesnt mean you are better than anyone, just that you go on missions. Thats like saying Tsunade's ANBU squads >> Jiraiya cos they do missions while Jiraiya writes books and chillaxes with video vixens and hoes. 

The difference is that the Sound 4 were never stated to be Orochimaru's strongest subordinates, so their portryal isnt any higher than Jugos even if their feats are higher or lower than his.

The difference is that Kimimaro was actually stated to be better than everyone else in Otogakure (besides Oro obviosuly and maybe Kabuto depending on how you look at the statements and feats).



> That doesn't mean he followed orders, he was thrown into prison and was forced to fight. Much different. Doesn't proves he was subordinate.


What does it matter. If Orochimaru asked Suigetsu "go and investigate the Hidden Grass Village" Suigetsu would have done it, just like he fought Jugo and moved Tsunade's halves of her bisected body together, when he was told to. When Sasuke beat him, he felt rebellious and left, but when Orochimaru was around, he did as Orochimaru asked and wouldn't have run away, for the same reasons a scared slave wouldnt run away from their master unelss they were strong enough to fight back when bark turned to bite. 


> People already dislike your "ill ignore feat" argument, Izaya.


Im not ignoreing feats im just weighing up feats and hype together. Would you say Teenage Sannin can beat Hanzo? Wave Kakashi's feats are better than Hanzo but he loooked up to Sannin so cant beat him. Remember the 'water bottle example' from the other thread. Just because Suigetsu has feats doesnt mean we should ignore Kimimaros hype. Kisame stated himself he cant beat Jiraiya so even if Jiraiya appeared to be weaker, it doesnt matter, hes still stronger. Do you read One Piece? If so, an example from there is like saying Hancock > Shanks. Her feats suggest so but we cant ignore Shanks' higher portryal. Also we have never seen him fight at full capacity, much like Kimimaro. Ask any One Piece reader and theyll say Hancock loses to Shanks even though her feats at the moment are better. Doflamingo's feats > Kaido's feats but his portrayal shows he cant beat Kaido. Or in DBZ, King Kai said he cant beat Frieza so even if King Kai had better feats than Frieza it doesnt matter.



> Hanzo has feat of beating Sannin. Kimimaro didn't beat Suigetsu. Your logic is Kimimaro pre-skip > stronger than Suigetsu post-skip for no reason.


So? There's no difference. Minato being stated to be stronger than Hiruzen is the same as Minato beating Hiruzen. It means the same thing, that Minato > Hiruzen. It never happened but just an example.



> So let's say Kimimaro pre-skip is > Sasuke post-skip too, because why not?


Because after the time skip it was stated Sasuke waa the best, implying he had either matched surpassed the power level of a Healthy Kimimaro. 



> Well, I use feats, you don't.


By your logic, Young Sannin beat Hanzo because they have better feats. We just ignore the manga's rules, laws and logic. Why the fuck would Suigetsu be better than Kimimaro? If he was, he would have been at Orochimaru's side like Part 2 Sasuke was, and he would have been the leader or a member of the Sound 4/5.



> You're comparing Kimimaro, who was stated to be strongest swordsman in past to Suigetsu who is what he is currently.


When was that stated.
Kimimaro was said to be the strongest subordinate. If Suigetsu was said to be the strongest after the time skip then maybe i would consider your worthless argument.



> Even if Suigetsu was a subordinate, you're comparing 12 years Suigetsu to Kimimaro (during his death time) rather than current Suigetsu to Kimimaro.


I dont really give a shit. If Suigetsu is so strong, then why didnt he or someone else state so.

[/QUOTE]Plus, Suigetsu straight up said that he wasn't Orochimaru's subordinate[/QUOTE]
But he straight up followed his orders and according to you physical feats > statements. 



> , that is a pure and perfect evidence,  you show me an evidence where it's stated that Suigetsu was a subordinate rather than evidences where it "hints" that Suigetsu was one?


Lets just agree to disagree. You can ignore the manga and I won't. This debate won't move forward until we can agree to agree so until then we have to leave this where it is.


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## Shanal (Dec 2, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> *"I am going to write essays about how Suigetsu is weaker than Kimimaro because Kimimaro was stated to be strongest subordinate of Orochimaru when Suigetsu was 12 years old even though he got older and stronger here and he even said that he wasn't a subordinate. I ignore feats though, those are for retarded biased assholes, but I will go by feats if my favorite is loosing hype-wise."*



Sums up your argument, either way, ignoring. The thread already came to a conclusion that Suigetsu curbs Kimimaro.


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 2, 2015)

Ill respond to y'all properly tomorrow. Got to go. But i'll leave you with this.


> Kimimaro was noted by Orochimaru and Kabuto as the most powerful member of the Kaguya clan, with his combat skills far outclassing the entire Sound Four. He was the only person before Sasuke who could control Jūgo with hardly any effort.[6] Even near death, Kimimaro's power could frighten the normally-arrogant Tayuya and battle Naruto, Lee, and Gaara consecutively without actually being defeated by them. After his reincarnation, he kept himself from being sealed away and slaughtered many enemies until Itachi Uchiha had Kabuto release the Impure World Reincarnation. He was suggested to be Kage level by Kabuto, who said the invasion of Konoha would have gone smoothly if he hadn't fallen ill.





> Suigetsu is a capable fighter, or at least very confident in his abilities, since he has threatened Sasuke on more than one occasion and was capable of stopping Jūgo's rampage with little difficulty. Kisame has noted him to be a child prodigy in the art of murder, and that he is practically the reincarnation of Zabuza.[7] Suigetsu was even shown able to briefly go up against Killer B, a perfect jinchūriki, while in his Tailed Beast Mode.[15] In the anime, Suigetsu also demonstrated capable taijutsu skill, being able to fight off hundreds of foes unarmed.[16]



Suigetsu = High Jonin / Otogakure Subordinate / < Pre-Hebi Sasuke
Kimimaro = Low Kage / Strongest Of All Otogakure Subordinates / = Pre-Hebi Sasuke
Underrate Kimimaro if you want to but I have better things to be doing that arguing with people who pick and choose parts of the same manga that they want to take into account (if it supports them) and ignore completely (if it completely shatters the futile argument they built up).


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 2, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Sums up your argument, either way, ignoring. The thread already came to a conclusion that Suigetsu curbs Kimimaro.



And just because the majority believe something it doesn't mean they are right and the minority is wrong otherwise why is slavery over and why is hitler dead?

Kimimaro curbs Suigetsu.The manga agrees with me and not you. If Kishi wrote a special chapter where Kimi and Sui fought, who do you think, realistically, would win, in Kishimoto's manga?


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## Shanal (Dec 2, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> And just because the majority believe something it doesn't mean they are right and the minority is wrong otherwise why is slavery over and why is hitler dead?
> 
> Kimimaro curbs Suigetsu.The manga agrees with me and not you. If Kishi wrote a special chapter where Kimi and Sui fought, who do you think, realistically, would win, in Kishimoto's manga?



Honestly, you need to understand the fact that we here do NOT argue about who is a stronger shinobi OVERALL. We argue about who WINS the fight. Kimimaro obviously is a stronger overall ninja than Suigetsu, but that doesn't mean he would WIN. Suigetsu wins because Kimimaro can't DAMAGE HIM and because Suigetsu has speed advantage and the fact that he can drown Kimimaro if he makes contact + the fact that Op said no knowledge thus Kimimaro goes for CQC and drowns.

Honestly, Izaya, we don;t give a SHIT about who is stronger overall, we only care about who WINS this fight, just that. Stronger is NOT always winner, for example Deidara was clearly superior than Sasuke and could've KILLED him if it wasn't for Sasuke's raiton chakra. But who won? Sasuke. Why? BECAUSE SASUKE COULD ANTI C4 USING LIGHTNING, AND IF HE COULDN'T, HE WOULD HAVE DIED.

Now, put someone like CS Juugo against Sasuke, and putt CS2 Juugo against Deidara. Deidara would EASILY DESTROY Juugo while Sasuke would have considerable trouble. But Sasuke defeated Deidara. See the logic? Deidara is overall STRONGER, but can't WIN against Sasuke.

Honestly, that's why your A > B > C thus A > C argument completely and truly suck.

If you can't get this simple fact in your brain, do not bother with a reply.

Izaya, honestly, I am not wasting my time on you, noone does, believe what you want, if your argument doesn't include feats and legit manga fact as to HOW Kimimaro can win this fight, but goes by random "subordinate" crap, I am ignoring you.

Also why the fuck are you comparing Kimimaro, the strongest subordinate to post-skip Suigetsu? Kimimaro was called strongest subordinate when Suigetsu was fucking 12 years old, and then Kimimaro died.

Pre-Hebi Sasuke only beats Suigetsu due to raiton. Look at this.

CS2 Juugo > Pre-Hebi non CS Sasuke > Suigetsu > CS2 Juugo. See the logic? Suigetsu looses against Sasuke due to lightning, but wins against Juugo due to no presence of lightning + drowning. Just because one character can beat other because they can anti them, doesn't mean someone on same scale can beat him.

We are NOT power scaling or making tiers here, we are deciding on who can WIN. Someone from lower tier CAN beat someone from higher tier given the conditions and immunities and advantages. But someone from higher tier is OVERALL stronger, but can't necessarily beat everyone below him. It's basic of vs debates, if you can't get this much in your head, you better give up.

And as I said, if your next reply isn't about how Kimimaro can beat Suigetsu but is about how Kimimaro is strongest subordinate while Suigetsu 3 years ago wasn't, I am ignoring you.

*10 meters distance, Suigetsu's superior speed, the fact that Kimimaro can't hurt Suigetsu while the latter can drown him with a simple touch, manga knowledge. All these facts just made Suigetsu win, even though Kimimaro might just be a stronger shinobi overall, he is NOT winning this fight.*


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 2, 2015)

Im not reading your silly essays. All i say is this - Well the fact that there is a lightning affinity makes Sasuke better than Deidara. He beat him in a fair fight so therefore Sasuke is superior. All it means is Sasuke can beat more people. i.e. Deidara loses to Sasori (for obvious reasons) but Hebi Sasuke beats him (poison resistance, Chidori eiso slices puppets, Katon burns Sasori, eiso pierces puppet core)


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## Shanal (Dec 2, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Im not reading your silly essays. All i say is this - Well the fact that there is a lightning affinity makes Sasuke better than Deidara. He beat him in a fair fight so therefore Sasuke is superior. All it means is Sasuke can beat more people. i.e. Deidara loses to Sasori (for obvious reasons) but Hebi Sasuke beats him (poison resistance, Chidori eiso slices puppets, Katon burns Sasori, eiso pierces puppet core)



Sasuke is not superior, Sasuke won due to advantage. If we put Sasuke against a certain someone and put Deidara against them, Deidara would win more easily. Sasuke would've died if it wasn't for lightning. Just like how Kimimaro would loose here because he can't hurt Suigetsu.

Deidara isn't loosing to Sasori if the distance is 50 meters, Sasori hasn't shown that ranged attacks and Deidara can fly in the air out of range and nuke him,  Sasori isn't that fast either.

You need to understand that being stronger is not always winning, a fight is decided by advantages and other factors, Suigetsu here wins due to speed superiority + 10 meters distance as OP stated + the fact that Kimimaro can't hurt him while he can drown him.

Knowledge is none according to OP so Kimimaro would go for CQC and thus drown.

Kimimaro is superior shinobi than Suigetsu and can give stronger opponents like Hebi Sasuke a fight while Hebi Sasuke would beat Suigetsu,but in the end Suigetsu wins against Kimimaro not because he's overall better, but because he has advantage.

If you can't understand that simple fact and just want to talk about who is overall stronger, better go home, noone got time for that. We're here to discuss who will win this battle and how, not who is stronger as a shinobi overall.


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## Shanal (Dec 2, 2015)

Your OWN argument has been that Oro > Jiraiya > Tsunade > Oro. Why can Tsunade beat Orochimaru who can beat Jiraiya who can beat Tsunade?

I'll tell you how.

_*Advantages.*_

The same reason as to why Suigetsu would win this fight.


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## Csdabest (Dec 3, 2015)

Seriously. There is no way for kimmimaro to hurt Suigetsu. Recovers from all physical damage. Can keep up with both Raikage and Killer Bee. At Best Kimmimaro might be Slightly faster than Suigetsu but not enough to blits past him dry. He going to get wet and he will get drowned.  He doesnt have to be connected to the water for him to control it. Suigetsu only real weakness is high level Bijuu Dama Chakra attacks, Lightning based techniques, Soul Sealing techniques,  and Chakra stealing techniques. ALL of which Kimimaro is completely dry off. Suigetsu stamina was low in the beginning because he was trapped in a jar for while.  And even then. This fight isnt really lasting past the first few exchanges. Edo Tensei Kimimaro defeated a KCM Clone Naruto that capable of beating a 3rd Raikage so we know when healthy he has the speed to keep up. But at this level. Suigetsu is an impossible counter for any Taijutsu Specialist  to overcome and with the databook giving him the ability to Harden his water like steel. Its just doesnt make sense that Kimimaro can defeat him. Outclass him in skill YES. Definetly. Win a fight never.


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## Shanal (Dec 3, 2015)

Csdabest said:


> Seriously. There is no way for kimmimaro to hurt Suigetsu. Recovers from all physical damage. Can keep up with both Raikage and Killer Bee. At Best Kimmimaro might be Slightly faster than Suigetsu but not enough to blits past him dry. He going to get wet and he will get drowned.  He doesnt have to be connected to the water for him to control it. Suigetsu only real weakness is high level Bijuu Dama Chakra attacks, Lightning based techniques, Soul Sealing techniques,  and Chakra stealing techniques. ALL of which Kimimaro is completely dry off. Suigetsu stamina was low in the beginning because he was trapped in a jar for while.  And even then. This fight isnt really lasting past the first few exchanges. Edo Tensei Kimimaro defeated a KCM Clone Naruto that capable of beating a 3rd Raikage so we know when healthy he has the speed to keep up. But at this level. Suigetsu is an impossible counter for any Taijutsu Specialist  to overcome and with the databook giving him the ability to Harden his water like steel. Its just doesnt make sense that Kimimaro can defeat him. Outclass him in skill YES. Definetly. Win a fight never.



Exactly, that's what I've been shouting the whole time. Has speed advantage, immunity, and can just drown Kimimaro to death. I do believe Suigetsu is faster though, given the fact that he never really got "blitzed" by KB and managed to interrupt blitzes from Ei and B on Sasuke from meters away. Plus, he managed to blitz Spiral Zetsu, someone who could pressure Gokage + Hiruzen + thousands of fodder.

While Kimimaro is overall a more skilled shinobi, Suigetsu shits on him in and out due to advantages.


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 3, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Exactly, that's what I've been shouting the whole time. Has speed advantage, immunity, and can just drown Kimimaro to death. I do believe Suigetsu is faster though, given the fact that he never really got "blitzed" by KB and managed to interrupt blitzes from Ei and B on Sasuke from meters away. Plus, he managed to blitz Spiral Zetsu, someone who could pressure Gokage + Hiruzen + thousands of fodder.
> 
> While Kimimaro is overall a more skilled shinobi, Suigetsu shits on him in and out due to advantages.



I don't care if he blitzed spiral Zetsu. Karin destroyed the Buddha. Does that mean Karin > Suigetsu. No it doesn't. Orochimaru also blitzed spiral Zetsu. Does that mean Orochimaru = Suigetsu? No. 

I respect your argument but honestly if Suigetsu can beat Kimimaro that means that Rusty Tsunade can beat Hashirama. Kimimaro is said to be the strongest in a group of ninja that includes Suigtsu. If Suigetsu can beat Kimimaro then why have you never argued that young Sannin can beat Hanzo or EMS Madafa can beat Hashirama? They are close in power but we always have  a clear winner. 

I just want to say two things. 

First thing: If I asked Masashi Kishimoto, "Suigetsu VS Kimimaro. Who wins Kishimoto-Senpai?" - What answer do you think he would give me?

Second thing: I know others will bash me, but come on Shanal, you  even said Suigetsu can beat Sasori. By that logic, Kimimaro can beat Deidara and CS1 Jugo can beat 100% Kisame. Would Suigetsu beat Itachi? Would he beat Kisame or Kakuzu or Deidara or Sasori? Because your fanfic arguments are starting to suggest so.


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## Shanal (Dec 3, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I don't care if he blitzed spiral Zetsu. Karin destroyed the Buddha. Does that mean Karin > Suigetsu. No it doesn't. Orochimaru also blitzed spiral Zetsu. Does that mean Orochimaru = Suigetsu? No.
> 
> I respect your argument but honestly if Suigetsu can beat Kimimaro that means that Rusty Tsunade can beat Hashirama. Kimimaro is said to be the strongest in a group of ninja that includes Suigtsu. If Suigetsu can beat Kimimaro then why have you never argued that young Sannin can beat Hanzo or EMS Madafa can beat Hashirama? They are close in power but we always have  a clear winner.
> 
> ...



You fail to explain how in the world Suigetsu would NOT beat someone who can't hurt him and is slower to him.

Kimimaro is overall stronger, but he can't damage Suigetsu and he's slower. If Suigetsu had not been water, Kimimaro would destroy him in a mere second.

Seriously, just because someone is overall stronger, it doesn't mean they win. We aren't rating tier, we're deciding a battle, we don't care who is stronger. We care who would win. Suigetsu is faster, he is weaker than Kimimaro in destruction capability, he is weaker than Kimimaro is overall tankness (without water body), he is weaker than Kimimaro is skills, he is weaker than Kimimaro in almost everything minus his immunity and speed. But guess  what? He beats Kimimaro due to advantage.

Kimimaro is obviously overall stronger than Suigetsu, but that doesn't mean he can win, Suigetsu shits on him because Kimimaro has nothing on Suigetsu and is anti'd by him.

you're not explaining why Suigetsu would loose, you're just saying why Kimimaro is overall stronger which we all agree to, but either way, Suigetso won this battle. Regardless of your biased opinion, we don't care about an argument you present in which you fail to give a proper reason to as to how in the world Kimimaro can beat someone faster than him, and whom he can't damage a bit, and who can pretty much drown him. Spout nonsense, it's over.

Everyone else actually explained how the fight would turn out and who would win and by what means and feats, but you're keep spouting non sense about who is overall stronger.

Look, Sasuke pre-Hebi would have a little difficulty in beating Rock Lee without gates, but he would destroy Suigetsu with gates, but Suigetsu can destroy Lee. See the contradiction? There's a thing called advantages and those decide how a battle turns out. Stronger one isn't always winner, the one who has upper hand is winner. I am not even reading your crap anymore, no one is bothering with you, minus me obviously, the thread was decided long ago.

*You need to understand that tiers DO NOT mean everything Izaya and a fight is not only decided by them but also advantages and other things too. And till you do that, I am not really going to take you seriously.* 

And I am not bashing you, I am giving you a friendly advice here, there's a reason why 99% of this forum doesn't agree with you even when you're right, and that's because 50% of times you're biased with the logic of if  a person is overall stronger, he can always beat someone who is overall weaker, that fact alone makes everyone think you are just trolling all the time, and thus dismissing your correct and logical arguments.

If you don't get it, another example. Raikage vs EMS Sasuke in a 5 meter distance fight while starting in v2, Raikage would SHIT on Sasuke, but what happens if we make it 50-100 meters or so? EMS would shit on Raikage with ease.

Just like here, Kimimaro despite being overall stronger can't beat Suigetsu because he is faster, one, and second he can't be hurt by Kimimaro, and third, all he needs to do is make contact to kill Kimimaro via drowning. Suigetsu has *immense advantage over Kimimaro and antis him in every way possible ,and thus would win despite being overall lesser skilled.* Learn that before you talk.

If you asked Kishimoto, he would say "Well Kimimaro is stronger and more skilled, but Suigetsu will probably win because Kimimaro can't hurt him and since he's slower, he would drown" Kimimaro IS stronger and he IS above Suigetsu in OVERALL power and skills. But who wins? Suigetsu, due to advantages.


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 3, 2015)

Shanal said:


> You're tarded. You fail to explain how in the world Suigetsu would NOT beat someone who can't hurt him and is slower to him.


Kimimaro is faster and even if he isnt i dont care if he is slower cos Raikage never beat anyone in the manga despite them all being slower than him. Same goes for 8 Gate Gai.


> Kimimaro is overall stronger, but he can't damage Suigetsu and he's slower. If Suigetsu had not been water, Kimimaro would destroy him in a mere second.


Kimimaro uses physical attacks. So does Orochimaru. The latter defeated Suigetsu.
Also, ninjutsu uses chakra. One Suigetsu is all spent up, then he has no defence.

S





> eriously, just because someone is overall stronger, it doesn't mean they win. We aren't rating tier, we're deciding a battle, we don't care who is stronger. We care who would win. Suigetsu is faster, he is weaker than Kimimaro in destruction capability, he is weaker than Kimimaro is overall tankness (without water body), he is weaker than Kimimaro is skills, he is weaker than Kimimaro in almost everything minus his immunity and speed. But guess  what? He beats Kimimaro due to advantage.


Silliest thing ive ever heard. If you are correct, then why didnt Hiruzen defeat Orochimaru?


> Kimimaro is obviously overall stronger than Suigetsu, but that doesn't mean he can win, Suigetsu shits on him because Kimimaro has nothing on Suigetsu and is anti'd by him.


Kimimaro couldnt be crushed by 200M of compressed sand so what will water do to him.



> Even as a good mate, I can't say I respect your argument because it's honestly retarded, you're not explaining why Suigetsu would loose, you're just saying why Kimimaro is overall stronger which we all agree to, but either way, Suigetso won this battle. Regardless of your biased opinion, we don't care about an argument you present in which you fail to give a proper reason to as to how in the world Kimimaro can beat someone faster than him, and whom he can't damage a bit, and who can pretty much drown him. Spout nonsense, it's over.


Is it over? Is it really over.





> Everyone else actually explained how the fight would turn out and who would win and by what means and feats, but you're keep spouting non sense about who is overall stronger.


So would Hashirama beat Hagoromo cos the former has better feats than the latter?



> Look, Sasuke pre-Hebi would have a little difficulty in beating Rock Lee without gates, but he would destroy Suigetsu with gates, but Suigetsu can destroy Lee. See the contradiction? There's a thing called advantages and those decide how a battle turns out. Stronger one isn't always winner, the one who has upper hand is winner. I am not even reading your crap anymore, no one is bothering with you, minus me obviously, the thread was decided long ago.


What? This paragraph confused me.



> *You need to understand that tiers DO NOT mean everything Izaya and a fight is not only decided by them but also advantages and other things too. And till you do that, I am not really going to take you seriously.*


We seem to be reading different mangas. Are you reading One Piece?


> And I am not bashing you, I am giving you a friendly advice here, there's a reason why 99% of this forum doesn't agree with you even when you're right, and that's because 50% of times you're biased with the logic of if  a person is overall stronger, he can always beat someone who is overall weaker, that fact alone makes everyone think you are just trolling all the time, and thus dismissing your correct and logical arguments.
> 
> If you don't get it, another example. Raikage vs EMS Sasuke in a 5 meter distance fight while starting in v2, Raikage would SHIT on Sasuke, but what happens if we make it 50-100 meters or so? EMS would shit on Raikage with ease.


Raikage dodges Amaterasu at any distance so what the fuck are you talking about. But either way EMS Sasuke is better so will win whether the differnce is 1 metre or 1000 metres



> Just like here, Kimimaro despite being overall stronger can't beat Suigetsu because he is faster, one, and second he can't be hurt by Kimimaro, and third, all he needs to do is make contact to kill Kimimaro via drowning. Suigetsu has *immense advantage over Kimimaro and antis him in every way possible ,and thus would win despite being overall lesser skilled.* Learn that before you talk.


flawed argument



> If you asked Kishimoto, he would say "Well Kimimaro is stronger and more skilled, but Suigetsu will probably win because Kimimaro can't hurt him and since he's slower, he would drown" Kimimaro IS stronger and he IS above Suigetsu in OVERALL power and skills. But who wins? Suigetsu, due to advantages.


You dont really mean that.

Counter these posts (or images i should say) then we can talk.


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## Shanal (Dec 3, 2015)

Not reading it, you're still not explaining how Kimimaro wins, you're just saying he's overall stronger, you're nothing but a troll in my eyes anyway, no one takes you seriously either, I don't know why should I of all people do it 

By the way, one Suigetsu wasn't a subordinate, and two, when Orochimaru said those he was much weaker and younger, I can easily claim he surpassed Kimimaro post-skip and you can't do shit.

Kabuto also said that there is nobody that can beat Kimimaru, he didn't say nobody from your subordinate list, so I take it as Kimimaro > Orochimaru too  oh and Kimimaro > Kaguya too, because apparently we don't care if that statement was made much before Kaguya even arrived.

Kabuto say he inherited all the techniques of his clan, I don't see him having Rinnegan, Byakugan and all the other things Kaguya had.

So much bias it's hilarious


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## Csdabest (Dec 3, 2015)

the reference to nobody could be kimimaro was a konoha refference since that was obviously the main obstacle.


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## Shanal (Dec 4, 2015)

Csdabest said:


> the reference to nobody could be kimimaro was a konoha refference since that was obviously the main obstacle.



Obviously, but I am talking to someone who is insisting that Kimimaro > Suigetsu because he was called the "greatest servant", I am going to reply with as retarded comments.


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 4, 2015)

Csdabest said:


> the reference to nobody could be kimimaro was a konoha refference since that was obviously the main obstacle.



some logical insight thank you
i wa gonna say this but i was  too tired to argue with shanal
one thing goes in one ear and comes out his other ear


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## t0xeus (Dec 6, 2015)

The match ends in tie at best for Kimi, as neither of them has any available technique to defeat the other, and since we don't have any feats to compare their stamina.

If Suigetsu gets little bit lucky, he may be able to drown Kimimaro, but I doubt that.

It is 51/49 for Suigetsu.


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## Shanal (Dec 6, 2015)

t0xeus said:


> The match ends in tie at best for Kimi, as neither of them has any available technique to defeat the other, and since we don't have any feats to compare their stamina.
> 
> If Suigetsu gets little bit lucky, he may be able to drown Kimimaro, but I doubt that.
> 
> It is 51/49 for Suigetsu.



Suigetsu is faster than Kimimaru feat-wise, he can obviously drown him while Kimimaro can't touch him due to water logia. 



IzayaOrihara said:


> *random spam and trolling*]



Lolk.


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 6, 2015)

t0xeus said:


> The match ends in tie at best for Kimi, as neither of them has any available technique to defeat the other, and since we don't have any feats to compare their stamina.
> 
> If Suigetsu gets little bit lucky, he may be able to drown Kimimaro, but I doubt that.
> 
> It is 51/49 for Suigetsu.



Thank you. But Shanal keeps wanking this 'drowning feat'. Its annoying because if it was Jiraiya VS Kisame no one would say Kisame drowns him. Shanal has no feats over Kimimaro so is coming up with OOC moves that Kimimaro can escape. Would Suigetsu be able to drown Raikage? No. Its like itachi. If lets say MS is restricted People say he headshots Tsunade with a kunai een though thats OOC, but they do it cos they are desperate for their boyfriend to win the fight, just like Shanal is here.



Shanal said:


> Suigetsu is faster than Kimimaru feat-wise, he can obviously drown him while Kimimaro can't touch him due to water logia.
> 
> 
> 
> Lolk.


He isn not a logia. Logia is unlimited. Ninjutsu in Naruto is not unlimited. Shikamaru has a hax hiden but he cant spam it for the entire duration of a fight. Why imply Suigetsu does? Hidan was helpless when under Kagemane, but when Shikamaru couldnt hold it up anymore, that was no longer the case.


> The last of Kimimaro's five dances, countless bones rise from underground, which can be as many as thousands, up to the tens of thousands. The blades of bone indiscriminately slaughter whoever stands on the ground's surface. Furthermore, if this fails to bring down his foe, *Kimimaro can become one with the bones, which in turn can allow him to attack an enemy unnoticed.
> *
> After injecting himself with Kimimaro's DNA, Kabuto Yakushi gained access to this technique.[2]


When Kimimaro is inside the bones then what is Suigetsu gonna do? And like i said, his 'logia' isnt spammable like you think it is. Kimimaro wins or at best they have a draw, but only if we wank Suigetsu into Kimimaro's tier.


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## Shanal (Dec 6, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Thank you. But Shanal keeps wanking this 'drowning feat'. Its annoying because if it was Jiraiya VS Kisame no one would say Kisame drowns him. Shanal has no feats over Kimimaro so is coming up with OOC moves that Kimimaro can escape. Would Suigetsu be able to drown Raikage? No. Its like itachi. If lets say MS is restricted People say he headshots Tsunade with a kunai een though thats OOC, but they do it cos they are desperate for their boyfriend to win the fight, just like Shanal is here.



How can Kimimaro escape drowning? Kisame's move is different and can't control water like Suigetsu can with his body.

No Sui won't drown Raikage, because Raikage has raiton which antis any move Suigetsu can use. Plus, Raikage is too fast for Sui.

Nah, you saying Kimimaro wins without a single feat but hype of him being "loyal servant" is OOC.



> He isn not a logia. Logia is unlimited. Ninjutsu in Naruto is not unlimited. Shikamaru has a hax hiden but he cant spam it for the entire duration of a fight. Why imply Suigetsu does? Hidan was helpless when under Kagemane, but when Shikamaru couldnt hold it up anymore, that was no longer the case.



Suigetsu would blitz Kimimaro and put a blob in his head and end this fight in 1 minute.

The distance by OP is 10 meters, that's all Suigetsu needs


> When Kimimaro is inside the bones then what is Suigetsu gonna do? And like i said, his 'logia' isnt spammable like you think it is. Kimimaro wins or at best they have a draw, but only if we wank Suigetsu into Kimimaro's tier.



OP stated that knowledge is none, Kimimaro is a CQC character, he would jump Suigetsu and get drowned. There's no knowledge for Kimimaro to take precaution, he'd attack Sui just like he attacked Rock Lee and get drowned.

Suigetsu is weaker than Kimimaro overall, but shits on him anyway, tiers don't mean you always win a fight, advantages does.

and situation, as provided by OP.


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 6, 2015)

@Shanal the ABC logic thread got locked or deleted or whatever. This is my post from there that i was gonna post. In here, it also contains a valid response to your post here so have an entertaining read.


Shanal said:


> Raikage was fighting Juugo, Raikage was not fighting Orochimaru. Juugo > Orochimaru


What does Orochimaru have to do with this? You think you're making me angry by saying my favourite character is weak but all you're doing is making yourself look stupid.
Orochimaru > Raikage > Kimimaro > Jugo => Suigetsu.
By your logic Jugo is stronger than anyone Raikage wasnt fighting. Are you stupid? No wait don't answer that.


> Suigetsu speed-wise showed better feats than Juugo in Taka vs Ei.


No he did not. If Raikage attacked him Suigetsu wouldnt react, unlike Jugo, who did react. If i'm wrong then show me a panel of Suigetsu fighting someone as fast as Raikage and blocking their blitz.


> Obviously Suigetsu would've died due to raiton, but doesn't changes the fact that Suigetsu shits on Juugo and drowns him.


It doesn't matter whether he's made of water or not (he's not by the way, he uses a jutsu to gain that effect, its not infinite) he would just get killed. Jounin tier thats not Kakashi, Kimimaro, Base Gai or Kimimaro, gets blitzed by Raikage.


> Because unlike Juugo, Gai can defend himself against Madara. Juugo can't hit or block Suigetsu, Juugo can't defend himself from getting drowned via a blitz


Yes he can.


> Noone gives a shit about what you think. Suigetsu speed-wise > Juugo. Juugo can't touch Suigetsu and would get drown.


I dont give a shit about which Naruto boys you are sexually attracted to. Jugo is faster and has better reactions than Suigetsu. He blocked Ei. Suigetsu was just able to walk into a fight that had nothing to do with him.





> Care to explain how Juugo would win anyway?


Against who? Raikage or Suigetsu?


> Welp, your logic sucks anyway, and noone takes your half assed arguments seriously,  I ain't bothering much. Trolls ftw.


Don't call me a welp you rat faced bitch. Who the fuck do you actually think you are speaking to? Dumb ass hoe.


> Till you manage to explain how Kimimaro or Juugo can beat someone who is faster, can drown them, and can't be hurt by them. I ain't taking you seriously.


You don't have to be faster than someone to beat them. I'll post this from Raikage vs Tsunade thread.


> Madara said, "*Tsunade is slower than the Raikage*, but she's stronger than him". Being slower than one of the fastest people in the world is nothing to be ashamed of. Plus, there are several instances where slower people do not lose to faster adversaries. Kisame defeated Killer Bee, Madara didnt lose to Gai, Sasuke overcame Killer Bee, Suigetsu intercepted Bee and Raikage, Orochimaru won against Hiruzen, Rusty Tsunade initially outperformed Kabuto, Tsunade landed hits on Edo Madara, Deidara dodged Hebi Sasuke, Tsunade soloed the Sannin fight, Pein ultimately overcame and defeated Sage Mode Jiraiya, Sasori landed hits on Sakura (who is specialised to evading all his attacks), Deidara won against Gaara, Madara stomped Ei, Pain initially stomped Sage Mode Naruto, Kimimaro owned Lee. Its not always the faster person that wins the fight. If anything, it's hardly ever the faster person that wins the fight.



Have you stopped to consider Kimimaro's abilities. Suigetsu can't hurt him either.



> Any bone that they remove from the body immediately regenerates, as does the skin that is damaged when the bones are removed.[6] Although it seems it takes a bit longer for the limb to become usable again, unless the user regrows the bones consciously.[7] Users can increase the density of the created bones, making them stronger than steel. This not only makes the created weapons very powerful, but also makes their bodies virtually indestructible; the bones can withstand even a chakra-infused blade, which is usually enough to cut through anything.[8] The bones structure can also be hollowed out completely as shown by the copy of Kimimaro which Kabuto had create a makeshift flute during his battle with the Uchiha brothers



And a little puddle of water isn't putting Kimimaro down.


> Kimimaro used this ability to wield his bones as weapons in battle, and could use them in the form of taijutsu attacks (which he called dances) to give him a variety of abilities, as well as grant him a near-invincible defence, able to withstand from being crushed by being buried under 200 metres of compressed sand,


And then he broke out of that sand like it was nothing. He crushes any water Suigetsu chucks at him.

Be realistic. If the two fought in Kishi's manga Kimimaro would win it's only logical.

This is my final post in this thread i just can't do it no more. Why? Because:


> My Post From Sasori VS Deidara Thread
> 
> I respect everyone's opinion but i'm more or less done with Naruto Forums now. Or the Battledome at least. I might start participating in One Piece debates instead. I had some fun debates here in the Battledome but now things have changed. I can't debate manga with people when we aren't debating over the same manga. In the manga i'm reading, which was written by Masashi Kishimoto, Suigetsu is weaker than Kimimaro and Deidara is weaker than Sasori. In Shanal's manga, Suigetsu is somehow better than Kimimaro and in DaVizWiz (plus many others')'s version of Naruto, Deidara can beat Sasori. I assumed Naruto Forums was designed as a place where we discussed Kishimoto's manga but I was wrong. People just ignore the manga. Or maybe we are reading different ones. I cant argue maths with someone if we abide by different laws of arithmetic. 2 + 2 = 4 so how can i argue with someone about maths when they think 2 + 2 = 3 and have a completely different understanding of the same concept. In Masashi Kishimoto's manga, Sasori is stronger than Deidara. If we are not debating Kishimoto's manga then I can accept Deidara may be at least an equal to Sasori (because hype or not, he goes down to Satetsu and we all know it). But in the Naruto manga which i read / anime which i watched for 8+ years, Sasori is stronger than Deidara because the manga says so by feats and hype, just like Kimimaro is stronger than Suigetsu and Madara is stronger than Onoki. So should I leave the BD (since we aren't even on the same page; literally; we seem to be discussing two different mangas; one where Sasori is stronger than Deidara, and another manga where that statement is allowed to be ignored and replaced with an overhyping of Deidara's petty, minor feats) or can we come to a mutual understanding (and start discussing Kishimoto's manga, not a separate copyright fanmade manga where there is no logic)? Which one will it be?


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## Dr. White (Dec 6, 2015)

Suigetsu drowns him.


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## IzayaOrihara (Dec 6, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Suigetsu drowns him.


Kimimaro breaks out of the water.


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## Dr. White (Dec 6, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Kimimaro breaks out of the water.



Nope. Juugo couldn't do jacksquat and was visually anguished by the discomfort. Kimmi goes to attack Suigetsu and either gets outdone in CqC or falls into logia trap.


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## Shanal (Dec 7, 2015)

Ignoring Izaya's troll. Yes, Suigetsu does drown him.


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## Swoldier (Dec 10, 2015)

Pretty close. Kimimaro is overall stronger, but all of his attack cannot work on an  opponent who is able to liquefy himself. I would say Suigetsu in scenario I beacause he can just take time before Kimimaro collapses due to his sickness, and Kimimaro in scenario II beacause he has all the time to hit Suigetsu while he's not totally liquid due to his superior speed


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## Shanal (Dec 10, 2015)

Swoldier said:


> Pretty close. Kimimaro is overall stronger, but all of his attack cannot work on an  opponent who is able to liquefy himself. I would say Suigetsu in scenario I beacause he can just take time before Kimimaro collapses due to his sickness, and Kimimaro in scenario II beacause he has all the time to hit Suigetsu while he's not totally liquid due to his superior speed



Kimimaro has superior speed? What?

Suigetsu interrupted blitzes from KB and Ei from 30-50 meters away. Suigetsu blitzed Spiral Zetsu, the guy who was pressuring all 5 kages + Hiruzen (edo) + thousands of fodders without leaving a single opening.

Suigetsu has literally shown much better speed feat.

By the way, he can simply drown Kimimaro.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 10, 2015)

*How is this a thread? Physical attacks against an opponent that can turn into water. Am I the only person that sees this? From 10 meters, Suigetsu could use his Water Pistol Shit, Executioner Blade could possibly break Kimmimaros bones if he isnt in CS1/CS2. I don't know the name of the giant water form he took when fighting Killer Bee, but what exactly is stopping Suigetsu from drowning Kimmimaro? How does Kimmimaro even attack him?*


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## Shanal (Dec 10, 2015)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> *How is this a thread? Physical attacks against an opponent that can turn into water. Am I the only person that sees this? From 10 meters, Suigetsu could use his Water Pistol Shit, Executioner Blade could possibly break Kimmimaros bones if he isnt in CS1/CS2. I don't know the name of the giant water form he took when fighting Killer Bee, but what exactly is stopping Suigetsu from drowning Kimmimaro? How does Kimmimaro even attack him?*



Well, every single person in this entire thread said this expect one. 

Anyway, I think it should be closed now.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 10, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Well, every single person in this entire thread said this expect one.
> 
> Anyway, I think it should be closed now.



*I didn't want to read through it all, you're right it should be closed by now.*


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