# 2015 Israel national election thread



## Saishin (Mar 12, 2015)

*Israeli legislative election, 2015*




> *Benjamin Netanyahu facing election defeat amid Left-wing surge*
> 
> Israeli prime minister's re-election campaign appears in disarray while Left-of-Centre Zionist Union is on the upswing
> 
> ...


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## FLORIDA MAN (Mar 12, 2015)

they got netanyahu babe
netanyahuuuuu babe


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## Edward Newgate (Mar 12, 2015)

Voting for Ale Yarok.


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## Saishin (Mar 12, 2015)

Edward Newgate said:


> Voting for Ale Yarok.


Who's this guy?


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 12, 2015)

WAD said:


> they got netanyahu babe
> netanyahuuuuu babe


That was bad and you should feel bad.


Edward Newgate said:


> Voting for Ale Yarok.





Saishin said:


> Who's this guy?




tl;dr - Its a single issue party for legalizing weed.


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## Zyrax (Mar 12, 2015)

Its seems like The Zionist Union Is going to win most seats


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## Edward Newgate (Mar 12, 2015)

Saishin said:


> Who's this guy?


Not who, but what. Ale Yarok is a party that had made legalization as it's main goal. Until these election, they had an image of nothing but stonners (and thus never passed the election threshold), but after replacing the party members, seriously working on their campaigns, gathering more than a quarter million Shekels from donations alone, they're finally gaining more and more popularity. According to polls, they're likely to pass the election threshold this time.

They seem like trustworthy people, more than our politicians, who offer rational solutions to different social issues other than legalization. They certainly deserve a chance. Obviously the head of the party won't be the Prime Minister, but he isn't gunning for the position anyway. Nothing bad would come from them having seats in the Knesset, at the very least.

*@Sunuvmann*
Uh, no. They aren't a single issue party anymore.


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## Mael (Mar 12, 2015)

Anybody but Bibi or another Jewish radical.


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## Edward Newgate (Mar 12, 2015)

Mael said:


> Anybody but Bibi or another Jewish radical.


As much I dislike Bibi, Buji and Tzipi are hardly any better. Those two are jokes. They're anything but a "Zionist Camp".
Buji is especially mad considering he said he is not rejecting the possibility of having Ahmad Tibi (leader of Ta'al party) in the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. 

Extremist left is just as dangerous as the extremist right.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 12, 2015)

Saishin said:


> Mr Netanyahu spoke on Tuesday of "an attempt to overthrow the government", a venture he claimed had international financial support.



Wow, now he sounds just like Erdogan. 

Didn't know he was a conspiracy theorist. But given how "well-liked" he is internationally, I wouldn't be suprised if there was something to it.



Edward Newgate said:


> As much I dislike Bibi, Buji and Tzipi are hardly any better. Those two are jokes. They're anything but a "Zionist Camp".
> Buji is especially mad considering he said he is not rejecting the possibility of having Ahmad Tibi (leader of Ta'al party) in the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.
> 
> Extremist left is just as dangerous as the extremist right.



Had to google Buji. So it's Issac Herzog's nickname. He Seems like a sensible guy, probably the best, realistic, option right now.

Regarding that rumor about Ahmad Tibi, I wouldn't be overly concerned:



> Herzog rejected claims by right-wing parties that he had pledged to appoint Ahmad Tibi, an MK from the Arab Joint List who has a pronounced Palestinian national identity, chair of the powerful Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.
> 
> ?It is an absolute lie,? he said and pointed out that the Knesset votes on appointments for committee chairs and that it is not solely up to the cabinet. ?It is just part of the symptoms of panic sown by Netanyahu and his people.? In a videotaped interview with Maariv, Herzog had said he ?won?t rule out? appointing Tibi as a member of the committee.
> 
> ...





> *MK Tibi: Arab politicians won't join coalition as long as occupation continues
> 
> 'Because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the continuing occupation, the situation is not ripe for us to join the government,' said Tibi. *


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## Edward Newgate (Mar 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Wow, now he sounds just like Erdogan.
> 
> Didn't know he was a conspiracy theorist. But given how "well-liked" he is internationally, I wouldn't be suprised if there was something to it.
> 
> ...


Didn't say he pledged. I had seen the interview. Not ruling out the idea is bad enough.

And all of them, Buji, Bibi are desperate for votes. So I honestly don't trust any of them.


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 12, 2015)

Edward Newgate said:


> As much I dislike Bibi, Buji and Tzipi are hardly any better. Those two are jokes. They're anything but a "Zionist Camp".
> Buji is especially mad considering he said he is not rejecting the possibility of having Ahmad Tibi (leader of Ta'al party) in the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.
> 
> Extremist left is just as dangerous as the extremist right.


Given the way it looks polling wise, they probably will need at least some rightward party for the coalition. That would probably temper things a bit.

ZU is center-left though


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> > As much I dislike Bibi, Buji and Tzipi are hardly any better
> 
> 
> 
> ...


jfc, what is it with Israeli politicians and nicknames?


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## Deleted member 73050 (Mar 12, 2015)

Too bad none of them are sufficient for the job.


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 12, 2015)

Vino said:


> Too bad none of them are sufficient for the job.


I miss Ariel Sharon. 

Likud are shit. But he was less shit.


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## Alwaysmind (Mar 12, 2015)

Bibi is falling behind the polls?


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## Son of Goku (Mar 12, 2015)

Edward Newgate said:


> Didn't say he pledged. I had seen the interview. Not ruling out the idea is bad enough.



Yeah, but no Arab party is willing to form a Government unless it means radical change, i.e. immediate end of the occupation. There are many Israeli Arabs who even reject the existance of Arab Israeli parties alltogether, since that makes them part of the system. By forming a Government with the *Zionist* Union, they would lose even more support.

You got more in common with these Arabs than you know.


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## Edward Newgate (Mar 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Yeah, but no Arab party is willing to form a Government unless it means radical change, i.e. immediate end of the occupation. There are many Israeli Arabs who even reject the existance of Arab Israeli parties alltogether, since that makes them part of the system. By forming a Government with the *Zionist* Union, they would lose even more support.
> 
> You got more in common with these Arabs than you know.


Again, despite the name, they are hardly Zionist when its own members reject the national anthem and sees it as racist. Hell when they attempt to get the Arabs' voice they remove the "Zionist" part from their name.

The Arabs have a better chance getting what they want with the Zionist Camp.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 12, 2015)

Edward Newgate said:


> Again, despite the name, they are hardly Zionist when its own members reject the national anthem and sees it as racist. Hell when they attempt to get the Arabs' voice they remove the "Zionist" part from their name.
> 
> The Arabs have a better chance getting what they want with the Zionist Camp.



Better as compared to the zero chance they get with Netanyahu? Sure.

I don't see much of a chance though of them getting together. Herzog and Livni won't bend nowhere close to enough for the Arab parties to consent without losing their base. But maybe I'm being too pessimistic.


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Better as compared to the zero chance they get with Netanyahu? Sure.
> 
> I don't see much of a chance though of them getting together. Herzog and Livni won't bend nowhere close to enough for the Arab parties to consent without losing their base. But maybe I'm being too pessimistic.


Considering they'd be a significant enough part that they could break the coalition if they wanted and force a new election, that would give them considerable power. If the government's popularity wasn't particularly high they could say "Pull out of the west bank or we're leaving this coalition" which would force a new election when the odds would be against ZU winning. Which would make them much more likely to accept those demands in order to hold the coalition together in hopes their popularity would rise by the end of the term.

Being a large block of a coalition is a powerful thing.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 12, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Considering they'd be a significant enough part that they could break the coalition if they wanted and force a new election, that would give them considerable power. If the government's popularity wasn't particularly high they could say "Pull out of the west bank or we're leaving this coalition" which would force a new election when the odds would be against ZU winning. Which would make them much more likely to accept those demands in order to hold the coalition together in hopes their popularity would rise by the end of the term.
> 
> Being a large block of a coalition is a powerful thing.



I wouldn't mind that scenario at all. I just doubt it will come to that. Arabs have been through too much to immidiately trust Israeli politicians, before they see them in action. But yeah, I hope I'm wrong and Herzog/Livni and the Arab parties can come to an understanding that will lead to hopefully better times.


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## Edward Newgate (Mar 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I wouldn't mind that scenario at all. I just doubt it will come to that. Arabs have been through too much to immidiately trust Israeli politicians, before they see them in action. But yeah, I hope I'm wrong and Herzog/Livni and the Arab parties can come to an understanding that will lead to hopefully better times.


The Arabs' own politicians should start taking care of their people rather than blubbering about Gaza and the West Bank so much. But all they do is trying to strengthen their hate towards the government.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 12, 2015)

Edward Newgate said:


> The Arabs' own politicians should start taking care of their people rather than blubbering about Gaza and the West Bank so much. But all they do is trying to strengthen their hate towards the government.



They would, if you let them.


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## Mael (Mar 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> They would, if you let them.



A lazy response.


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## Megaharrison (Mar 12, 2015)

The Arab parties won't be relevant until they stop being Jihadi idiots. The head of the UAL literally has Khaled Meshal on his phone contacts. Right now their best bet is either Labor or Meretz if they care about their own interests and don't feel like putting Palestinians first.

Anyway Herzog is probably going to win but we'll all tire of him in a few years anyway and vote Likud back in. How politics goes. Nobody can be as based as Bennett-sama, though.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 12, 2015)

Mael said:


> A lazy response.



Coming from you? Wow. Anyway, that's all his post deserved.


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 12, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> The Arab parties won't be relevant until they stop being Jihadi idiots. The head of the UAL literally has Khaled Meshal on his phone contacts. Right now their best bet is either Labor or Meretz if they care about their own interests and don't feel like putting Palestinians first.
> 
> Anyway Herzog is probably going to win but we'll all tire of him in a few years anyway and vote Likud back in. How politics goes. Nobody can be as based as Bennett-sama, though.


>Jewish Home

You would.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 12, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Nobody can be as based as Bennett-sama, though.



_"I will do everything in my power to prevent a Palestinian state"

-Naftali Bennett-_

Clearly a great guy.


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## Megaharrison (Mar 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> _"I will do everything in my power to prevent a Palestinian state"
> 
> -Naftali Bennett-_
> 
> Clearly a great guy.



When you don't want 10,000 more rockets, yer.


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## Darth (Mar 12, 2015)

WAD said:


> they got netanyahu babe
> netanyahuuuuu babe



this took me entirely far too long to get.


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## Mael (Mar 12, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> When you don't want 10,000 more rockets, yer.



Truthfully as an American who is sick of the headache and after-effects I'd rather do away with the both of you...but alas...


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## Megaharrison (Mar 12, 2015)

Mael said:


> Truthfully as an American who is sick of the headache and after-effects I'd rather do away with the both of you...but alas...



Too bad, we ain't going anywhere

And if you're sick of the ME Stop arming jihadis instead of scapegoating israel


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## Son of Goku (Mar 13, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> When you don't want 10,000 more rockets, yer.



If you think that by keeping the Palestinians from getting their land and instead taking it for yourself (Bennett's plan) you'll get less resistance from them you're more delusional than I thought. That's the road to Apartheid South Africa you're paving there and it will end just as bad for you, or probably even worse (sans Mandela).



Megaharrison said:


> Too bad, we ain't going anywhere
> 
> And if you're sick of the ME Stop arming jihadis instead of scapegoating israel



How come you don't mention the military and financial aid they're giving you?


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 13, 2015)

Mael said:


> Truthfully as an American who is sick of the headache and after-effects I'd rather do away with the both of you...but alas...


I second this emotion.


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## Mael (Mar 13, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Too bad, we ain't going anywhere
> 
> And if you're sick of the ME Stop arming jihadis instead of scapegoating israel



Or you could all go kill yourselves and we'll fill the land in with someone more worth it.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 13, 2015)

Mael said:


> Or you could all go kill yourselves and we'll fill the land in with someone more worth it.



Haha, my thoughts exactly when it comes to murika... well sometimes. That's why I'm hesitant to welcome stricter gun laws in the US. 

jk


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 13, 2015)

SoG is a yuropoor?

That'd explain everything.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 13, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> SoG is a yuropoor?
> 
> That'd explain everything.



Well, I don't know about the 'poor' part, but yeah. It effects me and my viewpoints less than you might think though. The perks of being anti-nationalist.


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## Mael (Mar 13, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Well, I don't know about the 'poor' part, but yeah. It effects me and my viewpoints less than you might think though. The perks of being anti-nationalist.



So you're a Eurofag...that explains so much.  I just smell bitterness you all still can't get your economy together while the US recovers.


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 13, 2015)

And of course the disdain and distrust of jews that comes from thousands of years of antisemitism


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## Sherlōck (Mar 13, 2015)

Mael said:


> So you're a Eurofag...that explains so much.  I just smell bitterness you all still can't get your economy together* while the US recovers.*



Bullshit. Rick Perry told me otherwise.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 13, 2015)

Mael said:


> So you're a Eurofag...that explains so much.  I just smell bitterness you all still can't get your economy together while the US recovers.



I told you at least on two instances personally and on several other instances in debates that I'm from Europe. But yeah, can't expect shit to have the same memorical capacity as an actual brain.

Can't bait me with that kind of lame ass dick measuring contest. If you managed to be more successful in fighting poverty or establishing peace, now that would be another story. But then, I would rather applaude you than be bitter. I wasn't brainwashed with Patriotism-powder, like you guys.





Sunuvmann said:


> And of course the disdain and distrust of jews that comes from thousands of years of antisemitism



I really have no idea how that would effect me, at all. The Holocaust is taught in schools pretty early on and the media as well as the government(s) makes sure to treat Jews with great care. Try again.


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## Mael (Mar 13, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Bullshit. Rick Perry told me otherwise.



Silly Texans 



Son of Goku said:


> I told you at least on two instances personally and on several other instances in debates that I'm from Europe. But yeah, can't expect shit to have the same memorical capacity as an actual brain.



You'll have to present some evidence.  Usually I scroll by most of your posts knowing it's the same Shia bootlicking drivel that we always get. Guess that's my fault for wanting my food intact in my stomach.



> memorical



Not a word.




Urban Dictionary has it but that's not at all an academic source.

Glass houses, Eurofag.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 13, 2015)

Mael said:


> You'll have to present some evidence.



I don't. Your history of brainlessness is well documented and serves to solidify my case.



> Not a word.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Narutoforums requires academic proof words? :rofl Just shut up you tool, I knew exactly what kind of word I was using.


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## Mael (Mar 13, 2015)

Oh my how quickly we excuse ourselves...


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## Son of Goku (Mar 13, 2015)

Mael said:


> Oh my how quickly we excuse ourselves...


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## Saishin (Mar 13, 2015)

Edward Newgate said:


> Not who, but what. Ale Yarok is a party that had made legalization as it's main goal. Until these election, they had an image of nothing but stonners (and thus never passed the election threshold), but after replacing the party members, seriously working on their campaigns, gathering more than a quarter million Shekels from donations alone, they're finally gaining more and more popularity. According to polls, they're likely to pass the election threshold this time.
> 
> They seem like trustworthy people, more than our politicians, who offer rational solutions to different social issues other than legalization. They certainly deserve a chance. Obviously the head of the party won't be the Prime Minister, but he isn't gunning for the position anyway. Nothing bad would come from them having seats in the Knesset, at the very least.
> 
> ...


You support the legalization of weed? 
It seems to be an anti-establishment party like Podemos in Spain or the M5S in Italy


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## Saishin (Mar 13, 2015)

> *'Scandinavia' accused of meddling in Israel vote*
> 
> Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has accused 'Scandinavian governments' of spending millions of dollars on a campaign to remove him from power, as the Middle Eastern country prepares for elections next week.
> 
> ...


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## Son of Goku (Mar 13, 2015)

> "Scandinavian governments have spent millions of dollars on a campaign to remove me from power," he said on the station Kol Israel.
> 
> "Western governments, but mostly Scandinavian...They know perfectly well why they prefer Buji and Livni to me," he added, referring to his opponents.



Well, of course they know.  "Buji and Livni" are less likey to start a war with Iran and more likely to make peace with the Palestinians. Not a hard decision if you're interested in both of these results. 

Where do the Scandinavians pump their "millions of dollars" into anyway? AFAIK Israel is pretty strict on donations. That's why Netanyahu's Jewish-American billionaire friend, Sheldon Adelson, created the paper "Israel Hayom" (dubbed “Bibiton”=“Bibi’s Newspaper”) and gives it away for free, cause he can't send his millions directly.


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## Megaharrison (Mar 13, 2015)

Anything the Scandinavians want for us is generally bad for us. Sweden's foreign policy is basically an IKEA rocket factory, as Bennett once so aptly put it. It's a pretty good campaign strategy to point this out.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 14, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Anything the Scandinavians want for us is generally bad for us.


If by us you mean guys like Bennett, who want to annex the West Bank and either throw the Palestinians out or keep them as cheap labour with limited rights, South African Style, THEN HELL YES: What Scandinavians (and rest of the world for that matter) want for you is pretty "bad".


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## Deer Lord (Mar 14, 2015)

Edward Newgate said:


> As much I dislike Bibi, Buji and Tzipi are hardly any better. Those two are jokes. They're anything but a "Zionist Camp".
> Buji is especially mad considering he said he is not rejecting the possibility of having Ahmad Tibi (leader of Ta'al party) in the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.
> 
> Extremist left is just as dangerous as the extremist right.


Basically this.

I will be voting Likud to try and stop the landslide that is BujixZipi, even though I am not whole hearted on the idea.
Still Likud fits my views the best out of our parties, I'd just wish it was led by based Gideon rather than BB.

In general, had gideon went for the perliminaries and won Likud would have had a much better time at the poles because it would rob the rival of 90% of their campaign.
The problem is, Bibi is more concerned about his benefit rather than the good of the party.


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## dr_shadow (Mar 15, 2015)

*Bump*

Scandinavian conspiracy here!


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## Saishin (Mar 16, 2015)

> *Benjamin Netanyahu makes impassioned last-minute plea to Right-wing voters*
> 
> Ahead of Tuesday's elections, the prime minister hoped for a political revival - but it fell flat after it drew a smaller crowd than an opposition demonstration a week earlier
> 
> ...


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## Alwaysmind (Mar 16, 2015)

> ?street by street, neighbourhood by neighbourhood?


 Where? 
I hardly believe he can cover all of Israel's neighborhoods in 24 hours. 
Moreover, he did no say "house by house." How do you cover streets and neighborhoods without going door by door?


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## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 16, 2015)

*Netanyahu: No Palestinian state if I'm reelected.*

Someone showed their true colors... 





> JERUSALEM ? Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel said Monday that as long as he is the leader, a Palestinian state would not be established, reversing his support for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
> 
> Mr. Netanyahu made the assertion on the eve of an election in which he is trailing in the polls. He has been campaigning aggressively, appealing to conservatives for support.
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 73050 (Mar 16, 2015)

> No Palestinian state



Damn straight.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 16, 2015)

Bibi was never serious about the two-state solution and I've been saying this for years. All along he was just stalling for time, while continuing to build settlements so Israel could one day annex the West Bank. But to come out one day before the elections and actually say it? Wow, he is fucking desperate.


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## Hand Banana (Mar 16, 2015)

Israel is phony as fuck.


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## Chelydra (Mar 16, 2015)

Well considering Hamas's antics over the past few years can you blame him? I am sure people can.  While a two state solution is a good goal to shoot for the Pali's have to earn it, and they can do that by stopping their pointless attacks.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 16, 2015)

Chelydra said:


> Well considering Hamas's antics over the past few years can you blame him? I am sure people can.  While a two state solution is a good goal to shoot for the Pali's have to earn it, and they can do that by stopping their pointless attacks.



The "Palis" (no apostrophe) don't have to earn shit, it's their land... well what's left of it. Anyway how would that stop people like Bennett and Netanyahu who want to annex the West Bank no matter what?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 16, 2015)

So when will we finally get the results?


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## Sherlōck (Mar 16, 2015)

Lesser of two evil my ass. 

We should just bomb Israel but US won't let it happen.


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## Linkdarkside (Mar 16, 2015)

good ,i guess.


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## baconbits (Mar 16, 2015)

I see no reason why Israel should have discussed the two state solution in the first place.  It was always a joke.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 16, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Lesser of two evil my ass.
> 
> We should just bomb Israel but US won't let it happen.


And you wonder why people neg the hell out of you, Sherlock, when you say such stupid shit like this?


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## Son of Goku (Mar 16, 2015)

At least this will make it fairly easy for undecided centrist voters who are for the two-state solution to vote for Herzog/Livni. If there are enough of these voters, this last act of desperation will backfire even more than his mad congress speech.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And you wonder why people neg the hell out of you, Sherlock, when you say such stupid shit like this?



Sorry but that's only you & idiots who think I am anti-Semite which I am not.

And it was not my congress & senate that hail Israel as God.Its your as evident by their recent charade.

And I just came here to say my piece & leave but you couldn't resist the temptation to quote me, could you?

Nonetheless stop stalking me in Israel related thread. How do you even know when I post in a Israel thread anyway? This is just creepy.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 16, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Sorry but that's only you & idiots who think I am anti-Semite which I am not.


Every post shows that you are an anti-Semite. I mean how are we supposed to react when you say 'we should just wipe Israel off the map'? 


> And it was not my congress & senate that hail Israel as God.Its your as evident by their recent charade.


I hate Bibi Netanyahu too, and guess what! Israel hates him too and he's going to lose the election.

To you, Israel is a evil Jewish state that needs to be wiped out so the 'good ol'Palestinians' can have their land back right?


> And I just came here to say my piece & leave but you couldn't resist the temptation to quote me, could you?


You said something stupid and offensive and you expected NOT to be called out on it? Are you high? Are you this disconnected to reality? Go post on Stormfront with that shit.


> Nonetheless stop stalking me in Israel related thread. How do you even know when I post in a Israel thread anyway? This is just creepy.


I didn't even know you posted when I clicked on this topic. But low and behold, you post yet another monstrous view and then claim that you aren't anti-Semitic. When every post you fucking MAKE in the Cafe about Israel IS anti-Semitic. And then you go 'lets just bomb and wipe Israel out'. 

Sherlock, you're a disgrace to the name.


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## WT (Mar 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Every post shows that you are an anti-Semite. I mean how are we supposed to react when you say 'we should just wipe Israel off the map'?



I've seen you advocate the destruction of the Muslim states before. STFU you little hypocrite. Stop playing the white knight.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Every post shows that you are an anti-Semite. I mean how are we supposed to react when you say 'we should just wipe Israel off the map'?



So does Mael when he says he wants to blow up whole Israel-Palestine. Does that mean he is both anti-muslim,anti-christian & anti-semite? Fuck you Mael. 



> To you, Israel is a *evil Jewish state* that needs to be wiped out so the 'good ol'Palestinians' can have their land back right?



First of all lol at the bolded. I never say "Israel the evil jewish state" . I say "Land grabbing state sanctioned terrorist state". Its a great PR move to insert the word Jewish or anti-semite to justify your bullshit.

Also last time you quoted me I stated my feelings about Israel as,



Sherlōck said:


> And do I wish that Israel didn't exist? Yes. But as long as they give back Palestine lands & support two state solution & stop killing 1000 to get revenge for 10 people I am willing to accept them.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You said something stupid and offensive and you expected NOT to be called out on it? Are you high? Are you this disconnected to reality? Go post on Stormfront with that shit.



What I said was true & I don't give a shit whether you find it offensive or not.And bombing Israel was more of a joke. I am not a monster like Israel. I don't condone civilian casualty.



> But low and behold, you post yet another monstrous view and then claim that you aren't anti-Semitic. When every post you fucking MAKE in the Cafe about Israel IS anti-Semitic. And then you go 'lets just bomb and wipe Israel out'.



You idiots like to label anyone & everyone who speaks out against Israel as anti-semite. It is possible to be against Israel & not anti-Semite is an idea that is totally foreign to you. 

As I have said countless time stop quoting me regarding Israel-Palestine bullshit. With that I take my leave.


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## Skilatry (Mar 16, 2015)




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## Alwaysmind (Mar 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> So when will we finally get the results?



Tomorrow, late tonight or early hours of the morning. Somewhere in that viscinity.


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## Yami Munesanzun (Mar 16, 2015)

There was never a "Palestinian state" until the Brits gave the Jewish that strip of uninhabited desert sand after WWII

Look it up.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 16, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> So does Mael when he says he wants to blow up whole Israel-Palestine. Does that mean he is both anti-muslim,anti-christian & anti-semite? Fuck you Mael.


Mael has became more jaded. You however have just shown to be stupid about the entire conflict AND lay the blame solely on Israel.




> First of all lol at the bolded. I never say "Israel the evil jewish state" . I say "Land grabbing state sanctioned terrorist state". Its a great PR move to insert the word Jewish or anti-semite to justify your bullshit.
> 
> Also last time you quoted me I stated my feelings about Israel as,


Even though it isn't a terrorist state. It doesn't meet ANY of the fucking criteria. Palestine would be a terror state. Afghanistan was a terror state. Pakistan is a terror state. Somalia is a terror state. Israel? Its a liberal democratic state. It always has been. You claiming Israel is a terrorist state that shouldn't exist just shows you how unbiased and moronic when it comes to these things. And you are closeted anti-Semitic. 

After all, you refuse to even acknowledge Palestinian crimes, ignore Hamas and other terrorists factions ins Palestine going unpunished, etc. But _to you_ Israel is the most evil country on Earth and no better than Russia or North Korea due to how warped your mind is.




> What I said was true & I don't give a shit whether you find it offensive or not.And bombing Israel was more of a joke. I am not a monster like Israel. I don't condone civilian casualty.


Israel isn't a monster, no matter how much you claim it is. It goes well out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. If it was a monster, know how many Palestinians would be alive now? None. Instead of having a growing population.

You do belong on Stormfront.


> You idiots like to label anyone & everyone who speaks out against Israel as anti-semite. It is possible to be against Israel & not anti-Semite is an idea that is totally foreign to you.
> 
> As I have said countless time stop quoting me regarding Israel-Palestine bullshit. With that I take my leave.


In the end you are a coward. You are a closet anti-Semite and your reasons against Israel are motivated by ignoring Palestinian crimes and making Israel out to be North Korea. When you get called out by other people, you act the same way.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 16, 2015)

I said once in a previous thread SS12 just can read my inner mind. He is a psychic.


----------



## Deleted member 73050 (Mar 16, 2015)

Lol this debate.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 16, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> I said once in a previous thread SS12 just can read my inner mind. He is a psychic.


Yeah, its not like the way you post shows how you really feel about things.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 16, 2015)

Remember the last time when you tried to make prediction about me & was wrong in every fucking point? Yeah keep doing this shit. It suits you well.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 16, 2015)

Alright, show to me why I shouldn't see you as anti-Semitic.


----------



## Deleted member 73050 (Mar 16, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Remember the last time when you tried to make prediction about me & was wrong in every fucking point? Yeah keep doing this shit. It suits you well.



[YOUTUBE]8UrC2i-O-M4[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 16, 2015)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> There was never a "Palestinian state" until the Brits gave the Jewish that strip of uninhabited desert sand after WWII
> 
> Look it up.



Sorry, no can do. We weren't provided that little handbook called "Convenient lies for loyal Zionists", which is where you seem to be drawing all your info from.

lol, "uninhabited" 
[YOUTUBE]JGBoGKPZlQE[/YOUTUBE] 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Alright, show to me why I shouldn't see you as anti-Semitic.



How about you show us what makes us anti-semitic in your eyes?

If you can't respond to that (which really is a given already), I'll accept that as a concession.


----------



## Yami Munesanzun (Mar 16, 2015)

> "Convenient lies for loyal Zionists"



And you just lost for resorting to that well-conditioned knee-jerk response.

I take it you had fun trying, though?


----------



## blueblip (Mar 16, 2015)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> There was never a "Palestinian state" until the Brits gave the Jewish that strip of uninhabited desert sand after WWII
> 
> Look it up.


Wut? You seriously saying no on lived there prior to WW2? 'Cause that's a complete load of bollocks.

On Topic: Bibi gonna Bibi.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 16, 2015)

blueblip said:


> Wut? You seriously saying no on lived there prior to WW2? 'Cause that's a complete load of bollocks.
> 
> On Topic: Bibi gonna Bibi.


Yes, people lived there Bluebip, but there was no 'state of Palestine'. There was never a nation of Palestine in the first place. It was a _territory_ that was owned by the British Empire.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Mar 16, 2015)

It doesn't seem that neither party can scrounge enough seats to form a coalition. Arab parties response to Herzog is: "GO FUCK YOURSELVES" (even though their constituents say they'd be fine working with the Zionist Camp). Likud has been slipping and they may not get enough seats from the Haredi and right-wing parties that Bibi is aiming for.

Either we'll be having this election again in a few months, or we could see a national unity government between Likud and ZC.


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 17, 2015)

Stupid foreigners spamming this topic about Arab bullcrap, when this election is about domestic housing issues. The lack of outsider understanding regarding Israeli politics is astounding. The last Israeli election that was actually about Arab problems was 15 years ago.

And yeah, Herzog would win if the Arab parties joined his coalition. But Arab parties are extremely racist and refuse to sit with any Jewish party.  It's why the Arab-Islamist bloc stays so small and irrelevant in the Knesset. Most of these parties are barely disguised Islamists, the leader of the UAL has  and they . In a normal democracy these looneys would be arrested for aiding terrorism, but Israel operates to a far higher standard it seems.


----------



## Yami Munesanzun (Mar 17, 2015)

blueblip said:


> Wut? You seriously saying no on lived there prior to WW2? 'Cause that's a complete load of bollocks.



"uninhabited" for the sake of being colorful.


----------



## N120 (Mar 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yes, people lived there Bluebip, but there was no 'state of Palestine'. There was never a nation of Palestine in the first place. It was a _territory_ that was owned by the British Empire.



No, it was a state and administered as one under the islamic rulership and then occupied by the Anglo-French alliance. Which also administered it as a state, dealing with the indeginous political body and its people.

It had a governing body, like any other state. And the British govt took responsibility as protectorate over it while under mandate. It was never 'owned' by Britain.

Using terms like 'ownership' which not even Britain would accept is a little bit silly and counter productive to any debate.

Palestine was and continues to be a recognised territory for a reason. In anycase it's a moot point, israel along with every other ME state will most likely collapse in on itself. If any argument is to be made about britians involvement , then it should be about the the mess and instability it left behind(and continues to do so), and imo it was probably intended that way.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 17, 2015)

N120 said:


> No, it was a state and administered as one under the islamic rulership and then occupied by the Anglo-French alliance. Which also administered it as a state, dealing with the indeginous political body and its people.


No, it wasn't a state. It was part of the Ottoman Empire, which was dissolved in the aftermath of World War I and the British Empire was given the responsibilities of running the Palestinian territory.


> It had a governing body, like any other state. And the British govt took responsibility as protectorate over it while under mandate. It was never 'owned' by Britain.


It was owned by Britain. It was a former territory of the ottoman Empire and didn't achieve independence. Thus, it wasn't a state or a country.


> Using terms like 'ownership' which not even Britain would accept is a little bit silly and counter productive to any debate.


The British Empire controlled Palestine when it got the territories from the collapsed Ottoman Empire. It wasn't and was never an independent state-it was always under control of another power.


> Palestine was and continues to be a recognised territory for a reason. In anycase it's a moot point, israel along with every other ME state will most likely collapse in on itself. If any argument is to be made about britians involvement , then it should be about the the mess and instability it left behind(and continues to do so), and imo it was probably intended that way.


How will Israel collapse when it hasn't suffered any of the crap that every other ME state in the region has?


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 17, 2015)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> "uninhabited" for the sake of being colorful.



The problem with you being "colorful" is that European Jews actually were told that coloful lie by Zionists, so they would have no hesitation to move to Palestine. Does "A land without people for a People without land" ring a bell? Also I remember people in the Cafe actually repeating that myth and buying in to it. That's how enduring propaganda can be.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It was owned by Britain. It was a former territory of the ottoman Empire and didn't achieve independence. Thus, it wasn't a state or a country.



No it wasn't owned by the Brits, you silly silly man. It was under a British mandate, as a transitory measure. There was always a plan to let the people who lived there rule themselves at one point. The people being overwhelmingly non-jewish Arabs, even until 1948.

Besides, Israel wasn't a state or a country either. It used to be a kingdom thousands of years ago, to long ago to be of any legitimate relevance today.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How will Israel collapse when it hasn't suffered any of the crap that every other ME state in the region has?



If guys like Netanyahu, Bennett and Lieberman continue annexing the West Bank, Israel will either have to do some serious ethnic cleansing, akin to 1948, or finally make the Apartheid status official. Either measure won't sit well with the rest of the world, which will doom Israel to the same fate as Apartheid South Africa.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 17, 2015)

How desperate is Bibi Netanyahu? Chuck Norris desperate!

[YOUTUBE]SkZr21WFEP8[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## WT (Mar 17, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Stupid foreigners spamming this topic about Arab bullcrap, when this election is about domestic housing issues



Whats your opinion on this? Build more houses in the west bank?


----------



## Saishin (Mar 17, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Stupid foreigners spamming this topic about Arab bullcrap, when *this election is about domestic housing issues.* The lack of outsider understanding regarding Israeli politics is astounding. The last Israeli election that was actually about Arab problems was 15 years ago.
> 
> And yeah, Herzog would win if the Arab parties joined his coalition. But Arab parties are extremely racist and refuse to sit with any Jewish party.  It's why the Arab-Islamist bloc stays so small and irrelevant in the Knesset. Most of these parties are barely disguised Islamists, the leader of the UAL has  and they . In a normal democracy these looneys would be arrested for aiding terrorism, but Israel operates to a far higher standard it seems.


Yeah yesterday at the news a journalist said that the domestic policies where more central in the election campaign than foreign policies,especially the lower class that usually vote for center-right demand solutions on the social-economical problems rather than solutions over the Palestinian issue.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 17, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Stupid foreigners spamming this topic about Arab bullcrap, when this election is about domestic housing issues. The lack of outsider understanding regarding Israeli politics is astounding.



And apparently poverty and unemployment too.



Son of Goku said:


> How desperate is Bibi Netanyahu? Chuck Norris desperate!
> 
> [YOUTUBE]SkZr21WFEP8[/YOUTUBE]



I hope (for the sake of professionalism) that the actual ad had a better audio because this clip sounds like it was recorded in a tin can.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 17, 2015)

Saishin said:


> Yeah yesterday at the news a journalist said that the domestic policies where more central in the election campaign than foreign policies,especially the lower class that usually vote for center-right demand solutions on the social-economical problems rather than solutions over the Palestinian issue.



Which hilariously plays in favor of the Labor Party.


----------



## dr_shadow (Mar 17, 2015)

As a Social Democrat in Sweden I guess I support the Labor Party.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 17, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Which hilariously plays in favor of the Labor Party.





mr_shadow said:


> As a Social Democrat in Sweden I guess I support the Labor Party.



Conservatives fumbling and losing ground on issues they neglected is like music to my ears.


----------



## dr_shadow (Mar 17, 2015)

*Israelis vote as 'King Bibi's' reign hangs in the balance*



> *(Reuters) - Millions of Israelis turned out to vote on Tuesday in a tightly-fought election, with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu facing an uphill battle to defeat a strong campaign by the center-left opposition to deny him a fourth term in office.*
> 
> In many respects the election has turned into a referendum on "Bibi" Netanyahu, 65, who has been in power for a total of nine years spread over three terms.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/17/us-israel-election-idUSKBN0MC2G620150317


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 17, 2015)

mr_shadow said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/17/us-israel-election-idUSKBN0MC2G620150317



Lol, now Bibi is scared of the Arab vote. He is a sinking ship. Anything he says now will only hurt his chances.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 17, 2015)

> *Netanyahu warns: The Left is busing Arabs to vote, the Right is in danger*
> 
> *Tibi says Netanyahu is inciting against Arab voters who are taking advantage of their natural and democratic right as citizens.*
> 
> ...


:rofl

He isn't just losing, he is losing _it_.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 17, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> :rofl
> 
> He isn't just losing, he is losing _it_.



It's not just that they are voting, it's that they are voting by the busloads. 

:rofl

Queue in the creepy music.


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 17, 2015)

Channel 1 sampling tells us of 27 seats for both the Likud and the Zionist Union, 12 for Yesh Atid and the Arab List, 10 for Kulanu, 9 for the Jewish Home, 7 for Shas and the United Torah Judaism, 5 for Yisrael Beiteinu and Merez.

Channel 2 sampling tells us of 28 seats for Likud, 27 for the Zionist Union, 13 for the Arab List, 12 for Yesh Atid, 9 for Kulanu, 8 for the Jewish Home, 7 for Shas.


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## Megaharrison (Mar 17, 2015)

As I said, ZU would win if they joined with Arab parties, something the latter won't do. Arab racism is legit preventing them from being relevant.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Mar 17, 2015)

Given Netanyahu's last minute declaration of not allowing a Palestine to exist, that might push the arab parties to get in the game.


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## Kagekatsu (Mar 17, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Given Netanyahu's last minute declaration of not allowing a Palestine to exist, that might push the arab parties to get in the game.


Problem is that the parties have officially said no agreement with Herzog unless they agree to "REMOVE SETTLEMENTS NAO", the Zionist Camp still insists on allowing larger settlements to stay on a case-by-case basis similar to the attempted Camp David accord under Clinton.

However, most of the United Arab List's constituents outright stated they really don't care fuck all about the settlements and just want some type of Arab representation in government. Since it seems it will be a while until a new government is formed regardless of the election, I can see the Arab voters put pressure on the UAL to hold their nose and join ZC, otherwise it will be on their heads if they ensured another few years of Bibi, Lieberman and the Haredim in power because they can't see the forest for the trees.


----------



## Deer Lord (Mar 17, 2015)

Anyone who understands a bit about Israeli politics will see the picture is clear.
Right-wing won. again.

Buji can't form a coalition under any constalation
anyone even considering arab list is on drugs. Those guys have NEVER joined any coalition.
even back then when Rabin was PM and went for Oslo the best arab parties did was back him up in parliment
but they did not join in to the government.

Only way for Buji to get into govt is to join Bibi.
And I don't see why would bibi want that when he can go for a much more stable coalition without 'em.

So basically, you can suck it leftists.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 17, 2015)

Damn, who would have thought Chuck Norris had so many devoted fans in Israel.


----------



## Deer Lord (Mar 17, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Damn, who would have thought Chuck Norris had so many devoted fans in Israel.


Underestimating Chuck Norris can only mean your downfall


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 17, 2015)

You do realize Bibi just exposed himself of not wanting Palestinian state and is also racist. Wouldn't that impact relations with US?


----------



## Mael (Mar 17, 2015)

NeoTerraKnight said:


> You do realize Bibi just exposed himself of not wanting Palestinian state and is also racist. Wouldn't that impact relations with US?



He has Republicans.


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 17, 2015)

They don't want peace in the world after all. I mean, creating wars for profit and such. Not to mention oppressing certain races for personal gain.

Basically, the US is providing money to Israel for NOTHING!


----------



## N120 (Mar 17, 2015)

Mael said:


> He has Republicans.



 tru dat


----------



## dr_shadow (Mar 17, 2015)

You've got to be impressed by someone who can stay in power for so long in a country that votes almost as often as Japan...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 17, 2015)

Just because Bibi declared victory doesn't mean he actually won yet.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Just because Bibi declared victory doesn't mean he actually won yet.



Judging from his last minute rhetorics, I think he just claimed with the hopes that no one would double check. He clearly is scarred of getting the boot. 

Well, even if he won, he does not really have the majority. The other parties can stall any bibi bills from now on if they wish.


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 17, 2015)

Pretty much a certain for Likud win. The various anti-Netanyahu factions have nobody to blame but themselves.

1.) Zionist Union was supportive of the V15 movement, a (primarily Arab) voter organizing/rallying organization that refused to disclose its funding. It eventually came out that it was getting millions from the Obama Administration and Scandinavian countries. This hurt Herzog badly.

2.) They made a big fuss about the silly Netanyahu speech which most Israeli's didn't especially care about, and given Obama's unpopularity in Israel it was foolish to turn it into an issue

3.) Again, the Arab parties (which have ended up the 3rd largest thanks to their joint ticket) are too racist to sit in any coalition with non-Arab parties. Even the Communist (but still Jewish) Meretz has been rejected by the Arab parties.

Netanyahu was unpopular because of the housing issue (not Arab/foreign issues), and just because of that a dead party like Labor was able to come within a few seats of victory. But the above errors/problems in the opposition doomed them. Unless Labor can shake off its pro-give-you-more-rockets image they won't be able to get a victory. 

In addition, the world yelling at Netanyahu and threatening him and trying to "teach Israel a lesson" only helped him. If the world wants Israel to change, they need to start listening to our problems. 

It's a shame Netanyahu won in any regard as he's an indecisive tard. Bennett-sama was too based to get far in any society. But at least a Netanyahu win will provide some nice SJW/Lefty/foreigner tears.

Anyway of course the lesson will be lost by the left wing anti-Netanyahu types, and they'll continue to scream KING BIBI and MUH ARABS.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 17, 2015)

Mega, I can't believe you're actually supporting Netanyahu when he is ruining your country's economy and damaging relations with Israel around the world.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 17, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Pretty much a certain for Likud win. The various anti-Netanyahu factions have nobody to blame but themselves.
> 
> 1.) Zionist Union was supportive of the V15 movement, a (primarily Arab) voter organizing/rallying organization that refused to disclose its funding. It eventually came out that it was getting millions from the Obama Administration and Scandinavian countries. This hurt Herzog badly.
> 
> ...



Can the left still fuse with another party to gain a majority? They only need two seats to overcome Bibi.


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 17, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> Can the left still fuse with another party to gain a majority? They only need two seats to overcome Bibi.



Bibi will fuse with other right-wing parties himself so his total seats will be bigger. Without the Arab parties, the left can't form a larger faction no.


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Mega, I can't believe you're actually supporting Netanyahu when he is ruining your country's economy



Netanyahu isn't responsible for the housing crisis, even if he didn't do much to improve it. Personally I would fully accept him losing on the basis of the housing crisis, but he didn't. I personally am not.

Also it isn't ruining our economy, it's just making it too expensive to live in Tel Aviv. It is slowing the economic boom thats been going on since 2006 though.



> and damaging relations with Israel around the world.



People say this, but people will always hate us and those who do just use Netanyahu as an excuse. And Netanyahu will get along fine with the next US President provided he/she isn't another Obama clone who just is ideologically hostile to Israel.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 17, 2015)

Here's the thing Mega, Obama doesn't hate Israel. He never did. Its just Netanyahu goes out of his way to antagonize any and all allies Israel has and bites the hand that feeds them. Even American Jews don't like him and see him as a problem instead of a solution.

Seriously, what sort of guy can run THIS many fucking times for Prime Minister without term limits?


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 17, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Netanyahu isn't responsible for the housing crisis, even if he didn't do much to improve it. Personally I would fully accept him losing on the basis of the housing crisis, but he didn't. I personally am not.
> 
> Also it isn't ruining our economy, it's just making it too expensive to live in Tel Aviv. It is slowing the economic boom thats been going on since 2006 though.
> 
> ...



Well, it is still too early to call, but the next U.S. President will likely be a buffoon. I would be more worried about that.


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 18, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> People say this, but people will always hate us and those who do just use Netanyahu as an excuse. And Netanyahu will get along fine with the next US President provided he/she isn't another Obama clone who just is ideologically hostile to Israel.



Oh shut it Ike Turner. It's clear Bibi doesn't want peace talks so former PM Sarkozky's right that he is a liar . The US is basically wasting money. These hawkish right-wingers are all the same so it's no wonder Republicans love him.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Mar 18, 2015)

NeoTerraKnight said:


> Oh shut it Ike Turner. It's clear Bibi doesn't want peace talks so former PM Sarkozky's right that he is a liar . The US is basically wasting money. These hawkish right-wingers are all the same so it's no wonder Republicans love him.



So, would you endorse sanctions against Israel with the current climate in the ME right now?

Plus it's not like Bibi is going to be PM indefinitely if he can't get the economy fixed, so I don't see how this result equals "Israel will never change! SANCTIONS NAO"


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 18, 2015)

I honestly think Bibi rigged the election at this point. His approval ratings were tanking at 22%, so how the FUCK could he get re-elected when the vast majority of Israel disproved of him?


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 18, 2015)

?l





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I honestly think Bibi rigged the election at this point. His approval ratings were tanking at 22%, so how the FUCK could he get re-elected when the vast majority of Israel disproved of him?



Because he went to Jerusalem. From an news segment I saw online earlier today, Bibi asked Jerusalem to vote for him. Beware of the Arab buses, but vote for me was his message. Or maybe the Republicans voted for him.
I wonder how long he will be able to keep power really with the bad economy and empty houses.


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 18, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> So, would you endorse sanctions against Israel with the current climate in the ME right now?
> 
> Plus it's not like Bibi is going to be PM indefinitely if he can't get the economy fixed, so I don't see how this result equals "Israel will never change! SANCTIONS NAO"



I rather the US put its foot down. I mean, let's remind Bibi where the money for the Iron Dome come from. Besides, Bibi likes to play hardball with the President very much and American Jews could give a crap about him anyway so... 

Besides, Bibi showing desperation in the elections REALLY says a lot about the guy who cares more for his seat than his own nation. I mean, taking away one of the few practical option for peace talks and alienating part of his population? Come on!


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 18, 2015)

NeoTerraKnight said:


> I rather the US put its foot down. I mean, let's remind Bibi where the money for the Iron Dome come from. Besides, Bibi likes to play hardball with the President very much and American Jews could give a crap about him anyway so...
> 
> Besides, Bibi showing desperation in the elections REALLY says a lot about the guy who cares more for his seat than his own nation. I mean, taking away one of the few practical option for peace talks and alienating part of his population? Come on!



The balls of this guy sometimes. I recall him saying to Obama not to question him ever again, and yet, how was the iron Dome financed? 

Sometimes leaders who stay in power too long lose touch with reality.


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 18, 2015)

Likud with 30, Zionist Union with 24, Arab List with 14, Yesh Atid with 11, Kulanu with 10, the Jewish Home with 8, Shas with 7, United Torah Judaism with 6, Israel Beiteyinu with 6, Merez with 4.

Bibi had apparently talks with Bennet, Lieberman, Deri (Shas), Kahlon (Kulanu) and Lizman (United Torah Judaism) together they have 67 seats.

Merez' head party decideds to retire after seeing the results.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 18, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> The balls of this guy sometimes. I recall him saying to Obama not to question him ever again, and yet, how was the iron Dome financed?
> 
> Sometimes leaders who stay in power too long lose touch with reality.


Again, why isn't there term limits for Prime Minsters in Israel? Bibi is basically making himself out to be a dictator.


----------



## Deer Lord (Mar 18, 2015)

Final tally is 30 for likud, 24 for labor

Bibi lolstomps


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 18, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Final tally is 30 for likud, 24 for labor
> 
> Bibi lolstomps


And you don't find that suspicious _at all_ Deer Lord?


----------



## Deer Lord (Mar 18, 2015)

Not at all.

Because you know, as mega pointed out a few times here
people in Israel don't actually hate bibi as badly as foreigners do.


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 18, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Here's the thing Mega, Obama doesn't hate Israel. He never did. Its just Netanyahu goes out of his way to antagonize any and all allies Israel has and bites the hand that feeds them. Even American Jews don't like him and see him as a problem instead of a solution.



He doesn't hate Israel, but he certainly does view it negatively and he has gone out of his way to antagonize Netanyahu on several occasions 2009-2012 before this mess started. The Cairo Address, , the Chickenshit remark, behavior during the Gaza War, support for the Muslim Brotherhood, etc.. Netanyahu is from an old Herut household that dynastically served in special forces, his mindset does not tolerate this kind of behavior even from the US. So he found ways to strike back and rustle Obama's jimmies. It's not a US-Israel thing so much as it's Obama-Netanyahu. 

Relations between the two administrations are bad but not even the Democratic Party as a whole is particularly with Obama on his Israel vendetta, not a single Democrat voted against the Congressional resolution welcoming Netanyahu to the US a few weeks back. In 1.5 years relations will reset with the next administration. Hillary doesn't have the personal baggage against Israel or the foreign policy ineptitudes/naivety that Obama did.



> Seriously, what sort of guy can run THIS many fucking times for Prime Minister without term limits?



Take it up with parliamentary systems. This kind of hilarity doesn't even come close to Italian or Japanese politics.


----------



## Edward Newgate (Mar 18, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And you don't find that suspicious _at all_ Deer Lord?


Personally, I don't. The media was pretty clearly against Bibi, thus making his disapproval ranking higher than they actually were. Then there're undecided votes, or those who had a last minute change of heart, I suppose. Some last-ditch efforts on Bibi's part to bring some votes to him. For example, he was blubbering about many Arabs coming to vote (err... fulfilling their right?), which probably made many afraid and vote for Bibi instead.

The people have spoken, respect that and move on. Lets see what will happen now.


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 18, 2015)

And Netanyahu didn't rig anything. The PMO in Israel doesn't even have any control over any mechanisms to do that like Shin Bet or the like. Israel isn't like the US where you have the leader of the country in control of the military and intelligence establishment. The Prime Minister of Israel has far less power than the President of the US. 

Seriously this is tinfoil level. There's no evidence to support rigging. Israeli elections have less fraud than in the US because we actually have fucking ID's.

Foreign (and domestic) media was so fanatically against Netanyhu they inflated his level of unpopularity.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 18, 2015)

there's no real fundamental problem with a lack of term limits

hell, technically the US didn't have a limit until 1951


----------



## Saishin (Mar 18, 2015)

WHAT THA FUCK! BIBI WON! HE MADE IT! HOW'S THIS EVEN POSSIBLE?! 

Damn I should post this, the Bibi's march 

[youtube]-bzWSJG93P8[/youtube]


----------



## Shivers (Mar 18, 2015)

Sad day for Israel, the Middle East, and the world.


----------



## Saishin (Mar 18, 2015)

> *Benjamin Netanyahu celebrates surprise electoral landslide in Israel*
> 
> Israel premier upsets polls predictions to score come-from-behind victory that leaves him poised to form new Right-wing government
> 
> ...


----------



## Saishin (Mar 18, 2015)

[youtube]fB4cSxr7L1M[/youtube]


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## Deleted member 73050 (Mar 18, 2015)

Sad day for Israel.


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## Mael (Mar 18, 2015)

Great...more of his alarmist shit.


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## dr_shadow (Mar 18, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Again, why isn't there term limits for Prime Minsters in Israel? Bibi is basically making himself out to be a dictator.



Because in parliamentary systems with proportional elections, nobody expects any government to be along long enough for it to become a problem.

*"Parliamentary"* means the parliament elects the prime minister, and can dismiss him at will. In other words the PM is usually from the party/coalition that has a majority in parliament, and has to resign when that majority changes. 

This is different from the presidential system of e.g the United States where the president is elected in a separate election and can stay in office even if the majority of Congress is against him (as is the case right now).

*"Proportional"* means you have several members of parliament per district, as opposed to just one. These seats are given to people from different parties according to how many votes they got in that district. The result is usually that the parliament consisting of many parties, none of which is itself above 50%. Therefore you need to form a coalition in order to pass legislation and appoint a prime minister.

This is again different from the majority elections of the United States, United Kingdom and other Anglophone countries. There, you have only 1 representative per district. That one seat goes to the largest party; the runner-up gets nothing. In such systems the parliament usually ends up consisting of only two parties: the government party and the largest opposition party. Sometimes there might be a third party if it's very popular in a special region and can beat the two largest party to the one seat of that region.

Presidential systems with majority elections are more person-focused, while parliamentary systems with proportional elections are more party-focused. Individual politicians in the latter are disposable (Japan says hi).


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## dr_shadow (Mar 18, 2015)

*Hard right shift delivers upset election win for Netanyahu*



> *(Reuters) - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu won a come-from-behind victory in Israel's election after tacking hard to the right in the final days of campaigning, including abandoning a commitment to negotiate a Palestinian state.*
> 
> In a pre-election blitz, Netanyahu made a series of promises designed to shore up his Likud base and draw voters from other right-wing and nationalist parties. He pledged to go on building settlements on occupied land and said there would be no Palestinian state if he was re-elected.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/18/us-israel-election-idUSKBN0MC2G620150318


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## Son of Goku (Mar 18, 2015)

So, that happened. A part of me is sad, another part isn't cause I will get to see Netanyahu turn Israel more and more to a second Apartheid South Africa and hopefully trigger the same kind of ending asap. 

Like they say: 'Sometimes things have to get worse, before they can get better.'




Megaharrison said:


> 1.) Zionist Union was supportive of the V15 movement, a (primarily Arab) voter organizing/rallying organization that refused to disclose its funding. It eventually came out that it was getting millions from the Obama Administration and Scandinavian countries. This hurt Herzog badly.



It came out? Any sources for that? Not like I wouldn't expect it, the US is no stranger to this kind of thing, but usually it's countries like Venezuela and Ukraine which are targeted. It would be a pretty bold move to try this in Israel.



Megaharrison said:


> People say this, but people will always hate us


You make it easy.

People will always hate occupiers, who seek more 'Lebensraum' by stealing land from others.


It's funny how you keep calling the Arab parties racist while you support the racist nut-job Bennett.

I don't know about the others but Ahmad Tibi, one of their leaders, sounds more than reasonable in interviews and according to wiki:



> Tibi is an Anti-Zionist. He supports an Israeli withdrawal to the pre-1967 borders and a two-state solution, with a Palestinian state established alongside Israel. He also opposes Israel's character as a Jewish state, claiming that its self-definition as Jewish is racist, and favors Israel becoming a "state of all its citizens". Accordingly, he supports removing icons that represent the special status of the Jewish majority, including the Law of Return, the flag, and the national anthem. He opposes the recruitment of Israeli-Arabs into the IDF. Tibi also supports the Palestinian right of return, calling it a prerequisite for reconciliation, but has stated that he believes only a small percentage of Palestinian refugees would actually choose to move to Israel.[8]
> 
> *Tibi is also known for having pronounced a moving speech to commemorate Holocaust Day in 2010 at the Israeli Knesset.* Yair Lapid reported on Israel's Channel 2: "Knesset elders claim that it might have been the best speech ever given in the Israeli Parliament".[9]


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## Darth inVaders (Mar 18, 2015)

Damn Bibi goes full Arab hating bigot and not only still wins but wins big? WTF
US should put a require he recommit to 2 state solution if he does not want portion of US aid cut


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## dr_shadow (Mar 18, 2015)

Darth inVaders said:


> Damn Bibi goes full Arab hating bigot and not only still wins but wins big? WTF
> US should put a require he recommit to 2 state solution if he does not want portion of US aid cut



Right wing going strong in many countries at the moment. You've got Abe in Japan and Modi in India too.


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## Mael (Mar 18, 2015)

Darth inVaders said:


> Damn Bibi goes full Arab hating bigot and not only still wins but wins big? WTF
> US should put a require he recommit to 2 state solution if he does not want portion of US aid cut



Republicans.


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 18, 2015)

It feels like a brother who just keeps doing really, really stupid shit. You love them and just want the best for them but god fucking dammit, why do you have to be so dumb?!


Darth inVaders said:


> Damn Bibi goes full Arab hating bigot and not only still wins but wins big? WTF
> US should put a require he recommit to 2 state solution if he does not want portion of US aid cut


Yeahhh.

Obama needs to exercise full reminder of who your sugar daddy is.


mr_shadow said:


> Right wing going strong in many countries at the moment. You've got Abe in Japan and Modi in India too.


I'd like to see Nate Silver's take on it but it seems like whatever the US currently is, the rest of the world does the opposite. Liberals win when the US prez is conservative, conservatives win when the US prez is liberal.

Anyway, while Modi and Abe are rather nationalistic (which given Chinese aggression isn't really a bad thing), on most other things they're relatively moderate. Abe for one has totally embraced left wing economics.


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## Jin-E (Mar 18, 2015)

Lost alot of respect for that guy when he sounded like a crackpot arab dictator with his conspiracy theories.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 18, 2015)

Darth inVaders said:


> Damn Bibi goes full Arab hating bigot and not only still wins but wins big? WTF
> *US should put a require he recommit to 2 state solution if he does not want portion of US aid cut*



Was this supposed to be a joke?


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## N120 (Mar 18, 2015)

Takes me back to the days when hamas was voted in. Scenes. 

Israeli politics, what happened to all the " domestic issues" ? 

Bigots.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 18, 2015)

Seems like Republicans are playing dumb. Ah well, "playing"...



> *Republicans Downplay Netanyahu Change on Palestinian State
> *
> 
> _Mar 17, 2015 9:10 PM CET
> ...




Seems to me as if it's just a matter of time that the Repubs will acclimate to this and then basically echo whatever Netanyahu's stance is on a Palestinian state as their official policy as well. Guys like Bacon are already fully on board with this.


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## Superstars (Mar 18, 2015)

A smart man reelected, someone who understands you can't appease evil. Unlike our naive administration.


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## Saishin (Mar 18, 2015)

Mael said:


> Republicans.


Not yet Mael,you have to wait 2016 



> *Benjamin Netanyahu's victory is a black day for the Middle East peace process*
> 
> The right-wing leader's victory in Israel's elections means there will be no deal with the Palestinians
> 
> ...


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## dr_shadow (Mar 18, 2015)

Superstars said:


> A smart man reelected, someone who understands you can't appease evil. Unlike our naive administration.



Superstars is back!!! 

Allahu akbar!


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## KidTony (Mar 18, 2015)

Netanyahu has a big mess to clean up



> Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pulled out all the stops to win Tuesday?s election ? but his victory has come at a tremendous cost to him and, more importantly, to Israel.
> 
> In the final days of the campaign, Netanyahu renounced the two-state solution and whipped up nationalist sentiment. On Election Day, he resorted to fear tactics that crossed the line into racism, exhorting his followers to get to the polls because ?the Arabs are voting in droves.?
> 
> ...


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## KidTony (Mar 18, 2015)

Bibi throws decades of diplomacy out the window

Why Netanyahu?s victory means a new beginning for Palestine



> As the results of the Israeli election were broadcast, many who hoped and worked for peace between Israelis and Palestinians stared at their TV screens with jaws dropped in stunned disappointment.
> 
> Benjamin Netanyahu, who had just a day earlier declared he would never allow a Palestinian state to emerge under his watch ? a core tenet of U.S. foreign policy toward Israel and Palestine ? won a significant election victory that will allow him to form a right-wing coalition to govern Israel for some years to come.
> 
> ...


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## N120 (Mar 18, 2015)

This is the fundamental flaw with the state of Israel. It's inception and existence is impractical and unsustainable as is the notion of a Palestine based on 2 mini States with israeli highways and settlements running through them. And no right of return.

There should never have been a state of israel, that was never going to be the solution but a huge problem which only grew decades on. Jewish settlements should have been pushed for, with the idea of coexistence not division.

Now we're coming full circle. Instead of having decades of struggling for peace we have endured decades of deaths,murder,occupation,loss,resentment and hatred. Well done.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 18, 2015)

N120 said:


> This is the fundamental flaw with the state of Israel. It's inception and existence is impractical and unsustainable as is the notion of a Palestine based on 2 mini States with israeli highways and settlements running through them. And no right of return.


Uh, its the Palestinian's fault they don't have a state in the first place, N120. They agreed to the Two-State Solution since the founding of Israel, its just the Palestinians never did and wanted all of Israel's land that had been legally given.


> There should never have been a state of israel, that was never going to be the solution but a huge problem which only grew decades on. Jewish settlements should have been pushed for, with the idea of coexistence not division.
> 
> Now we're coming full circle.


Israel has a right to exist, N120. Palestine would too if it didn't have its head up its ass for most of its history.

Honestly, there should be a recall election for this. Netanyahu if he won, should have had a narrow victory, not a landslide considering he had less than a quarter of Israel approving him. Something is fishy and underhanded. Especially when he began declaring victory before the votes were even tallied.


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## N120 (Mar 18, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Uh, its the Palestinian's fault they don't have a state in the first place, N120. They agreed to the Two-State Solution since the founding of Israel, its just the Palestinians never did and wanted all of Israel's land that had been legally given.
> 
> Israel has a right to exist, N120. Palestine would too if it didn't have its head up its ass for most of its history.



They Didnt want "Israels" lands, they were against the division of theirs to create a state for someone else, ie the creation of an Israel on palestine.

That's the reality you have to accept.

It'll put things into perspective for you, otherwise you'll continue to be lost.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 18, 2015)

N120 said:


> They Didnt want "Israels" lands, they were against the division of theirs to create an state for someone else, ie the creation of an Israel on palestine.
> 
> That's the reality you have to accept.


Israel was legally founded and the Israelis were all for the lands being divided up with two states since its inception. Palestinians who never cared in the first place just took it as a rallying cry to complete Hitler's Final Solution and turned down the offer, hence why we have the mess-up. Remember, the 'leader' of the Palestinians was good friends with Hitler and even sent Jews that were living there to the Death Camps.

And it doesn't help that Palestine was never a country or state in the first place. It was part of the Ottoman Empire and then the British Empire, never its own power. So the British could legally create Israel and the Palestinians should have accepted the Two-State Solution to save themselves this headache instead of succumbing to their century long anti-Semitism.


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## N120 (Mar 18, 2015)

well, that didn't take long did it. Hitler and the final solution...ok. GTFO 

And you're worried about the nutjob netenyahoo? U shud worry more about your own state of mind a lil more. 

You need to ease up with that reply button and try to understand the situation and points being made, otherwise you're just wasting your own time.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 18, 2015)

N120 said:


> well, that didn't take long did it. Hitler and the final solution...ok. GTFO
> 
> And you're worried about the nutjob netenyahoo? U shud worry more about your own state of mind a lil more.


The Palestinians were well published Nazi Collaborators. I'm not making this up, N120. Hell, look at their reaction when Jews were immigrating to Palestine in the Palestinian Mandate-two violent uprisings and attempts to wipe the Jews out.





> In post-war historiography some attempts have been made to portray Husseini as an architect of the Holocaust, a thesis revived recently by Schwanitz and Rubin.[163] Documents, such as the testimony of Fritz Grobba,[164] confirm that an associate of al-Husseini's, together with three associates of former Iraqi Prime Minister certainly did visit the Sachsenhausen concentration camp as part of a German secret police "training course" in July 1942. At the time, the Sachsenhausen camp housed large numbers of Jews, but was only transformed into a death camp in the following year.[165] Their tour through the camp presented it as a re-educational institution, and they were shown the high quality of objects made by inmates, and happy Russian prisoners who, reformed to fight Bolshevism, were paraded, singing, in sprightly new uniforms. They left the camp very favourably impressed by its programme of educational indoctrination.[166]
> 
> Various sources have repeatedly alleged that he visited other concentration camps, and also the death camps of Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka and Mauthausen, and according to H?pp there is little conclusive documentary evidence to substantiate these other visits.[167] Although some historians have questioned al-Husseini's knowledge of the Holocaust while it was in progress, Wolfgang G. Schwanitz notes that in his memoirs Husseini recalled that Heinrich Himmler, in the summer of 1943, while confiding some German war secrets, inveighed against Jewish "war guilt", and revealed the on-going extermination (in Arabic, abadna) of the Jews.[168]
> 
> ...


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## Kagekatsu (Mar 18, 2015)

N120 said:


> There should never have been a state of israel, that was never going to be the solution but a huge problem which only grew decades on. Jewish settlements should have been pushed for, with the idea of coexistence not division.
> 
> Now we're coming full circle. Instead of having decades of struggling for peace we have endured decades of deaths,murder,occupation,loss,resentment and hatred. Well done.



I'm curious what would have been the preferred solution in your eyes if you believe there shouldn't be an Israel, considering part of the reason it was founded was because it was deemed necessary by Jewish refugees and other members of the Diaspora in the Holocaust's aftermath.


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## N120 (Mar 18, 2015)

@ supersaiyan: Stop responding to me if you have nothing worth contributing. Zionists also collaborated with nazi Germany, its a moot point, we aren't discussing the war, it ended and nazis were defeated by 1945.

We are talking about another conflict entirely,  none of which you're  able to comprehend/address it seems.

the establishment of Israel on palestine and the 2 state solution and its feasibility.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 18, 2015)

N120 said:


> @ supersaiyan: Stop responding to me if you have nothing worth contributing. Zionists also collaborated with nazi Germany, its a moot point, we aren't discussing the war ended and nazis were defeated by 1945.
> 
> We are talking about another conflict entirely,  none of which your able to address it seems.
> 
> the establishment of Israel on palestine and the 2 state solution and its feasibility.


But this is something that ties into this. Zionists collaborated with Nazi Germany?! Are you HIGH? You honestly expect me to believe they were sending their own people to the Death Camps?!

N120, you just established why you shouldn't be taken seriously if you can't even address that Palestinians have always had a long standing hatred of Jews and the attempts for a two-state solution were blocked by their inherent anti-Semitism.


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## N120 (Mar 18, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> I'm curious what would have been the preferred solution in your eyes if you believe there shouldn't be an Israel, considering part of the reason it was founded was because it was deemed necessary by Jewish refugees and other members of the Diaspora in the Holocaust's aftermath.



On the contrary, it was a long process getting the 'diaspora' to warm up to the idea of an exclusive jewis state. It wasn't wthout opposition from within the various jewish communities that existed worldwide or even within palestine for that matter, nor has it removed the idea of a diaspora as jewish communities still exist world wide and identify themselves with the country they are part of.

Also to note, what is a jew? There are many communities who desended from jewish ancestry but aren't modern Jews, what of them? There are Jews who don't even originate from the Middle East, what of those? It created a false narrative and image in order to create a nation, they had to create a people.

In order to gain support in the early days of Israel there was a drive to drum up fear(which still goes on today) as part of the PR campaign for migration,(as megaharrison posted the other day),they used covert attacks and other nefarious means  against jewish communities living elsewhere to use as PR stunt to up the call for migration into israel. 

they've uprooted and debased entire communities (both arab and jewish) all over the world, this is what the creation of israel did. It's been disastrous. 

My solution is a simple one, coexistence. There was no reason to not negotiate a coexistence plan if one was needed. A state of Palestine which would continue to take in jewish refugees and allow them to settle.

It would be No different to how people from across the commonwealth settled in England and hold british passports today. They were migrants but today they are naturalised 4th, 5th generation Brits. 

Doesn't matter if your jew,muslim,Christian,white,brown or black, we all share one nationality.

If we can share the same street,shops,work,parks,cinemas,schools and what not here, we can do that anywhere.

But instead we got a 'solution' that wasn't a solution at All, and has been a source of conflict for generations and it'll continue.

Israel will eventually collapse in oo itself, it's living a flawed existence like every other ME state that exists beyonds it's borders.


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## hcheng02 (Mar 18, 2015)

N120 said:


> @ supersaiyan: Stop responding to me if you have nothing worth contributing. Zionists also collaborated with nazi Germany, its a moot point, we aren't discussing the war ended and nazis were defeated by 1945.
> 
> We are talking about another conflict entirely,  none of which your able to comprehend/address it seems.
> 
> the establishment of Israel on palestine and the 2 state solution and its feasibility.



The 2 state solution is the only feasible option for the simple fact that grouping hostile populations into one state by some artificial political decree isn't going to work. The bloody sectarian wars in Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen show Arabs that lived together for decades, shared the same language and culture bloodily murdering each other by the hundreds of thousands simply because of differences in religion and such. But somehow the Jews and Palestinians are supposed to live together peacefully despite not even having those few decades of peaceful coexistence? 

Netanyahu won't be prime minister forever, so basically just put the whole peace process on ice until someone else comes along. Its not like its a high priority anyway considering how ISIS is fucking over at least 3 countries and has outright stated that it wants to attack the West. The whole Arab Peace Initiative doesn't hold much water when the actual existence of several Arab countries is in open question. Hell, if Israel had given up the Golan Heights before the Arab Spring, Islamic terrorists would have the high ground to launch attacks on Israel now like Syria used to do.


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## N120 (Mar 19, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> The 2 state solution is the only feasible option for the simple fact that grouping hostile populations into one state by some artificial political decree isn't going to work. The bloody sectarian wars in Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen show Arabs that lived together for decades, shared the same language and culture bloodily murdering each other by the hundreds of thousands simply because of differences in religion and such. But somehow the Jews and Palestinians are supposed to live together peacefully despite not even having those few decades of peaceful coexistence?
> 
> Netanyahu won't be prime minister forever, so basically just put the whole peace process on ice until someone else comes along. Its not like its a high priority anyway considering how ISIS is fucking over at least 3 countries and has outright stated that it wants to attack the West. The whole Arab Peace Initiative doesn't hold much water when the actual existence of several Arab countries is in open question. Hell, if Israel had given up the Golan Heights before the Arab Spring, Islamic terrorists would have the high ground to launch attacks on Israel now like Syria used to do.



That's true, but like I said they are also flawed. these nations were divided by arbitrary lines, ripping apart families not just communities just to facilitate new nation states. This was in part done intentionally by the Anglo French alliance, they used divisive tactics to make it easier to divide and conquer, then they installed dictatorships over them, not through consent but via a get rich quick scheme designed to help the alliance win the war.  Most of the Monarchs that exist today, do so thanks to that scheme.

I'm not just critical of israel/palestine but the ME in general. In short, this flawed design exists because it helped foreign policy and strategic goals but it's unsustainable in the long run and itll go through phases of collapse and reinvention. Unfortunately violence will play a part in the reshaping of this entity and the power struggles will exist( has done so from the start). Monarchs will fight to retain power, west will fund others to retain status quo for FP/strategic purposes, groups will emerge and rebel or fight for change and to undo the mess that was created. Israel and Palestine are a piece of that puzzle.

These problem predate all the recent troubles.

Having said that, creation of Israel didn't help and at the very least some sensible compromise could have been made here to create a platform for these people to build and coexist rather than fuel war and divisions. It didn't have to be to be this way. 

In fact, a lot of the violence could've been avoided and instead facilitated alternative political movement to combat the problems that exists within that Region as whole.


----------



## hcheng02 (Mar 19, 2015)

N120 said:


> That's true, but like I said they are also flawed. these nations were divided by arbitrary lines, ripping apart families not just communities just to facilitate new nation states. This was in part done intentionally by the Anglo French alliance, they used divisive tactics to make it easier to divide and conquer, then they installed dictatorships over them, not through consent but via a get rich quick scheme designed to help the alliance win the war.  Most of the Monarchs that exist today, do so thanks to that scheme.
> 
> I'm not just critical of israel/palestine but the ME in general. In short, this flawed design exists because it helped foreign policy and strategic goals but it's unsustainable in the long run and itll go through phases of collapse and reinvention. Unfortunately violence will play a part in the reshaping of this entity and the power struggles will exist( has done so from the start). Monarchs will fight to retain power, west will fund others to retain status quo for FP/strategic purposes, groups will emerge and rebel or fight for change and to undo the mess that was created. Israel and Palestine are a piece of that puzzle.
> 
> ...



Frankly these wars have been a long time coming. Everybody talks about how the Middle East countries are unstable because they have artificial borders that don't reflect ethnic and religious lines. The only logical conclusion would be that in order to form a stable state you need to redraw borders and relocate populations. And frankly thats exactly what's happening now. Israel is just a minor incident. This conflagration would have happened whether or not Israel existed. Nobody's believing that the Syrian civil war or the Arab Spring was caused by Israel. 

Its basically the Thirty Years War again, and it will end when every country has a population that is ethnically and religiously uniform.


----------



## N120 (Mar 19, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> Frankly these wars have been a long time coming. Everybody talks about how the Middle East countries are unstable because they have artificial borders that don't reflect ethnic and religious lines. The only logical conclusion would be that in order to form a stable state you need to redraw borders and relocate populations. And frankly thats exactly what's happening now. Israel is just a minor incident. This conflagration would have happened whether or not Israel existed. Nobody's believing that the Syrian civil war or the Arab Spring was caused by Israel.
> 
> Its basically the Thirty Years War again, and it will end when every country has a population that is ethnically and religiously uniform.



i was going to agree until I read 'relocate population', which made no sense. only people who would seriously suggest such a thing are far right israeli nutjobs, outside of which it has no real basis for in any other conflict. The communities don't have to go anywhere to solve their problems. How this crept into this debate is a mystery.

But i agree with your overalls point regarding the identity crisis and instability created by anglo french alliance.

Imo as the monarchies and dictatorships fall, which inevitably would mean the collapse of governments and their system, this will phase in new political movements, wether secular or religious which will focus on rebuilding the political system and structure of how it governs. 

It'll be inclusive, it'll have to be. Otherwise it'll only be kicking the can down the road and make way for further conflict down the line. Most sane people recognise this and don't want to further divide or even redraw maps, it's what started the mess in the first place, but rather to change the system from one based on injustice and dictatorship to one that serves every citizen fairly and justly, provides economical solutions and stability while repsecting their cultural and religious heritage and traditions. 

Ofcourse the struggle in the mean time will be the dicators themselves, The west will push for pro western, liberal democracy and pussy foot around who to support if not hamper, then there's regional powers who'd be pushing the problems outward via proxy wars (what we see in Iraq and Syria), israel too will further intensify it's efforts to retain statehood and one way to do that is promoting fear and war, and Ofcourse the rise of political movements of various shades across the region who wil have to endure it all and still find strength to seek a better future. They have no other choice but to struggle, some of which will lead to militancy.

In the end, redrawing maps on 'ethnicity' won't ease tensions and is not what most people in the ME are fighting over, in reality the common man or woman treats these lines as arbitrary lines, they give it no mind in the bigger scheme of things, it's only the govts that sustains it's value for its own purpose. But to an average arab the dividing lines are no different to a Brit traveling from England to Scotland, or Wales. May ASWELL not be there.


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## hcheng02 (Mar 19, 2015)

N120 said:


> i was going to agree until I read 'relocate population', which made no sense. only people who would seriously suggest such a thing are far right israeli nutjobs, outside of which it has no real basis for in any other conflict. The communities don't have to go anywhere to solve their problems. How this crept into this debate is a mystery.
> 
> But i agree with your overalls point regarding the identity crisis and instability created by anglo french alliance.
> 
> ...



Please, these communities are relocating themselves as we speak. The Arab Christian communities are dying out right now. The Jewish communities of the Middle East are pretty much all extinct except for in Israel. Sunnis are moving to Sunni held areas, Shia to Shia, Kurds to Kurds.Once everyone has found there little state of homogenous ethnicity and religion ruled by a strong leader (democratic or not), the Westphalian concept of nationhood will prevail in the Middle East. Only then will there be a solid foundation for peace. These sectarian struggles have shown that the multicultural societies that work in the West won't work over there. As for Israel, it will make peace with its neighbors once things become more stable. No point making peace with a government that might not even exist a year from now.


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## N120 (Mar 19, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> Please, these communities are relocating themselves as we speak. The Arab Christian communities are dying out right now. The Jewish communities of the Middle East are pretty much all extinct except for in Israel. Sunnis are moving to Sunni held areas, Shia to Shia, Kurds to Kurds.Once everyone has found there little state of homogenous ethnicity and religion ruled by a strong leader (democratic or not), the Westphalian concept of nationhood will prevail in the Middle East. Only then will there be a solid foundation for peace. These sectarian struggles have shown that the multicultural societies that work in the West won't work over there. As for Israel, it will make peace with its neighbors once things become more stable. No point making peace with a government that might not even exist a year from now.



Ah, so this is why that 'population relocation' line was inserted, I thought it was an odd thing to raise but no, you are seriously peddling this stupid and dangerous idea, seriously. 

Look, The problem is that you're looking at it from the extreme israeli prism and applying this false, redundant narrative to an entire region. It didnt and won't work for israel and certainly isn't true regarding the wider region.

Fleeing civil war doesn't equate to 'relocating' or chaniging borders. The Sunnis,Shia,Christians and other minorities are all running to sarrounding refugee camps, struggling side by side.

It's also false to paint the conflict as simply a sectarian one, it's not. It's a political one between various factions including dictators,puppet regimes, secularists,Islamists and proxies. 

Those in the war zone also aren't relocating either, they're either enduring the war somehow or fleeing violence between factions where they can avoid most of the violence. In some cases it's strategic use of these people.

You have little knowledge on the culture or nature of these people, or the nature of this conflict.


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## epyoncloud (Mar 19, 2015)

IRAN! IRAN! IRAN ! :33


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## Son of Goku (Mar 19, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Israel was legally founded



Ethnic cleansing is not legal, gtfo.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 19, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But this is something that ties into this. Zionists collaborated with Nazi Germany?! Are you HIGH? You honestly expect me to believe they were sending their own people to the Death Camps?!



To the Death Camps? lol no. To Palestine. Transfer Agreement, look it up.


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## Overwatch (Mar 19, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> I'm curious what would have been the preferred solution in your eyes if you believe there shouldn't be an Israel, considering part of the reason it was founded was because it was deemed necessary by Jewish refugees and other members of the Diaspora in the Holocaust's aftermath.



I'm not particularly invested in this issue, nor am I a fan of "what ifs" when it comes to history, but I will say that they probably would've been better off settling in the US. It would have guaranteed their security and brought prosperity to them AND the country.


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## hcheng02 (Mar 19, 2015)

N120 said:


> Ah, so this is why that 'population relocation' line was inserted, I thought it was an odd thing to raise but no, you are seriously peddling this stupid and dangerous idea, seriously.
> 
> Look, The problem is that you're looking at it from the extreme israeli prism and applying this false, redundant narrative to an entire region. It didnt and won't work for israel and certainly isn't true regarding the wider region.
> 
> ...



I'm not peddling anything, I'm merely pointing out the obvious sectarian nature of this war and its ultimate aftermath. In many places you have the Arab Christians outright abandoning the area because of religious persecution. Many Sunni and Shia areas are also undergoing a self sorting process. We've seen this happen before during the Balkan Wars during the 1990s when Yugoslavia fell apart. Or when the ethnic Germans were kicked out of Poland and various European countries after WWII. Its nothing new nor anything unique to the Arabs.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 19, 2015)

[YOUTUBE]ecTAPz1_zjk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 19, 2015)

How dare Obama didn't call to congratulate?


----------



## Mael (Mar 19, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> How dare Obama didn't call to congratulate?



Considering Bibi was probably like "Oh can't wait to see that schvartze's face now!"


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 19, 2015)

Honestly speaking I wouldn't be surprised if that really is the case.

Anyway I didn't see that Romney speech before. Holy fucking shit.How the fuck did he even got a nomination back then? Didn't they investigate him before handing him that?


----------



## KidTony (Mar 19, 2015)

Netanyahu’s Win Is Good for Palestine



> WASHINGTON — IF anyone doubted where Benjamin Netanyahu stood on the question of peace, the Israeli prime minister made himself clear just before Tuesday’s election, proclaiming that there would never be a Palestinian state on his watch. Then he decided to engage in a bit of fear-mongering against Palestinian citizens of Israel in hopes of driving his supporters to the polls. “The right-wing government is in danger,” Mr. Netanyahu announced on Election Day. “Arab voters are heading to the polling stations in droves.”
> 
> But Mr. Netanyahu’s victory is actually the best plausible outcome for those seeking to end Israel’s occupation. Indeed, I, as a Palestinian, breathed a sigh of relief when it became clear that his Likud Party had won the largest number of seats in the Knesset.
> 
> ...


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 19, 2015)

> But Mr. Netanyahu’s victory is actually the best plausible outcome for those seeking to end Israel’s occupation. Indeed, I, as a Palestinian, breathed a sigh of relief when it became clear that his Likud Party had won the largest number of seats in the Knesset.
> 
> This might seem counterintuitive, but the political dynamics in Israel and internationally mean that another term with Mr. Netanyahu at the helm could actually hasten the end of Israel’s apartheid policies. The biggest losers in this election were those who made the argument that change could come from within Israel. It can’t and it won’t.
> 
> ...



Almost took the words right out of my mouth. Even though I hated to see Netanyahu win - simpy because he's an ass who doesn't deserve sucess - I also saw it as an ultimately good thing. But until then, things will (have to) get worse.


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 19, 2015)

The sky is still falling here eh? Lol@this butthurt


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 19, 2015)

And BIBI just flipflopped on the whole Palestinian State. Wow...A racist and a liar.


----------



## hcheng02 (Mar 19, 2015)

NeoTerraKnight said:


> And BIBI just flipflopped on the whole Palestinian State. Wow...



Why is this surprising? Its utterly predictable. I'm betting he'll say that he will still work for the two state solution but its not likely that it will come to fruition while he's prime minister because of the current Mideast unrest and Islamic uprising.


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 19, 2015)

I mean he just flat out lied to the right-wingers just to keep his position. Now he says he's not a racist after using the GOP's Southern Strategy. Well then Nixon is not a crook.


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Mar 19, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> Why is this surprising? Its utterly predictable. I'm betting he'll say that he will still work for the two state solution but its not likely that it will come to fruition while he's prime minister because of the current Mideast unrest and Islamic uprising.



Usually politicians wait more than 1 day after the election to do a 180.

I wonder how the people in this country will respond to that.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Mar 19, 2015)

Tsukiyomi said:


> Usually politicians wait more than 1 day after the election to do a 180.
> 
> I wonder how the people in this country will respond to that.


Given the volatile nature of Israeli politics in general, combined with the fact Bibi still doesn't have an answer to the economic situation caused by the housing crisis, it's likely there will be another election by next year if he can't get the right-wing coalition he was aiming for.


----------



## N120 (Mar 19, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> Given the volatile nature of Israeli politics in general, combined with the fact Bibi still doesn't have an answer to the economic situation caused by the housing crisis, it's likely there will be another election by next year if he can't get the right-wing coalition he was aiming for.



So we can expect another round of alarmism, lies and deceit. 

If there is to be elections next year, then I don't expect him make make a u turn to his pledge of no palestine under his watch, it'd be suicide considering that's what edged him ahead At the polls, alongside his bigoted tirade Ofcourse.

I expect further strain to US israeli relations, and a tougher stance from the international community, I also expect the continued fall out over iran.

The domestic problems won't help either.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 19, 2015)

Nethanyahu flips flops more then Mitt Romney. Two days ago the Arabs were scary with their votes and their buses and Palestine was a resounding "no". Now he is saying, a Two state solution is feasible. 

How can you guys stand this guy?


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Mar 19, 2015)

Well Israel is making their bed. Don't get mad later when the rest of the world starts isolating you. You wanna live in the 20th Century, suit yourself. The rest of us will just ignore you and recognize the Palestinan state.


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 20, 2015)

fyi, if you actually see his full quote he doesn't simply reject a Palestinian state. He goes on for several paragraphs about how the conditions right now (i.e. Hamas, rockets, and the lack of a unified Palestinian governments) make a Palestinian state irresponsible for an Israeli leader to agree to, which is why he'd "indeed" oppose one right now.

But media gonna media, so it's futile to try and be calm about this. I doubt Netanyahu's last-minute proclamations even mattered very  much, this wasn't an Arab-issue election and much like the US in 2004 the media hates Netanyahu and was exaggerating how disliked he was.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 20, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> fyi, if you actually see his full quote he doesn't simply reject a Palestinian state. He goes on for several paragraphs about how the conditions right now (i.e. Hamas, rockets, and the lack of a unified Palestinian governments) make a Palestinian state irresponsible for an Israeli leader to agree to, which is why he'd "indeed" oppose one right now.



Yes sure, the same tired bullshit. Delay, delay, delay, "it can't possibly be now", "conditions" "bullshitbullshitbullshhit". Fact is, as long as he is pm, there will never be a two-state solution. Israel is just too comfortable with its apartheid status quo.



> But media gonna media, so it's futile to try and be calm about this. I doubt Netanyahu's last-minute proclamations even mattered very  much, this wasn't an Arab-issue election and much like the US in 2004 the media hates Netanyahu and was exaggerating how disliked he was.



Also, i wonder how you're going to defend his disgusting race baiting.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 20, 2015)

Mega is gonna mega. 


Netanyahu is using Hamas and any violent resistance to the occupation as a pretext to continue the occupation and pave the way for annexation and another round of ethnic cleansing. None of which Mega has a problem with, I may add.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 20, 2015)

Netanyahu was a dumbass for saying that Publicly. 
Sure a Two State Solution needs a lot of things to work(Erasing hatred from both sides, A Palestinian Economic plan etc) which would take years but he is Doing nothing but playing on peoples emotion and Making himself seen as Pro-Status Quo among The Europeans who want stability in the Middle East to stop Immigration and Pissed off The Arab Countries including Our allies Jordan and Egypt. The UK which is one of the Most Pro Israel Country said it would recognize Palestine and Obama said he might do the same. 
Oh well I guess I better prepare for the Millions Of Chinese Students who will Come to Israel once we become a Chinese proxy


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 20, 2015)

Since this wasn't posted yet:



> *Israel’s Netanyahu Reverses Position on Palestinian State Again
> 
> Conditions for one today are not achievable, prime minister says
> *
> ...



_"The U.S. responded Wednesday by upending decades of American policy when it left open the possibility that it might stop using its veto to shield Israel in the United Nations."_

That explains Bibi's attempted backpedaling. It must've scared him to no end.


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

Heh, looks like we truly are the hand that feeds.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 20, 2015)

I don't know if I should laugh or facepalm
But I still stand the The Two State solution should be done only when Palestine has a Economic plan


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 20, 2015)

That shit needs it's own news. 



> *US To 'Reassess' Diplomatic Protection For Israel At UN, After Netanyahu's Comments On Palestinian Statehood*
> 
> _By  Mark Hanrahan_
> 
> ...



It's still a long way for a threat to become reality, and this might never happen, but the threat alone is already quite historic. And Netanyahu knows.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 20, 2015)

US doing anything against Israel interest.


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> US doing anything against Israel interest.



It's a rarity but after Bibi starts to make a mockery of the clearly dependent relationship with the US, our patience wanes.  He insults the POTUS, gets the GOP to fellate him, considers the US as just some plush toy, and risks the US having to get involved militarily.  Fuck him.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 20, 2015)

Mael said:


> It's a rarity but after Bibi starts to make a mockery of the clearly dependent relationship with the US, our patience wanes.  He insults the POTUS, gets the GOP to fellate him, considers the US as just some plush toy, and risks the US having to get involved militarily.  Fuck him.



That's the point. GOP is the majority party in congress now & they don't give a single fuck about POTUS either. And based on GOP's recent action against a deal that can put stability in the region it seems like they want to go to war & do Israel's bidding. And let me tell you I don't believe Israel will contribute in that war if it happen.

And what will happen if the guy who applaud Bibi in his speech to congress become next POTUS? Can you really tell me that POTUS will go against Israel's interest?


----------



## Blue (Mar 20, 2015)

I bet the butthurt in this thread was amazing.


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 20, 2015)

USA is supposed to be Israel's sugar daddy, not it's bitch.


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

NeoTerraKnight said:


> USA is supposed to be Israel's sugar daddy, not it's bitch.



Well yeah, but tell that to the Repubs and Evangelicals.


----------



## Blue (Mar 20, 2015)

Israel is our ally. We are the "bitch" of all our allies.


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> Israel is our ally. We are the "bitch" of all our allies.



What an absolutely ignorant statement, completely overlooking the amount of aid, presence, materiel, troops, etc., we place around the world in support of said allies.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> Israel is our ally. We are the "bitch" of all our allies.



Like when you halted the aid for Egypt, cause you didn't like its (elected) leader? This has never even been used as a threat to Israel. Don't kid yourself, Israel has much more leeway. They-get-caught-trying-to-sink-one-of-your-ships-and-you-don't-move-a-finger level of leeway.


----------



## Blue (Mar 20, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Like when you halted the aid for Egypt, cause you didn't like its (elected) leader?



Your bias is getting the better of you.

We didn't halt aid until that legitimately elected leader was overthrown by a military coup, and even that was apparently a hard decision for Obama.



Mael said:


> What an absolutely ignorant statement, completely overlooking the amount of aid, presence, materiel, troops, etc., we place around the world in support of said allies.



Oh I missed this.

What are you even talking about? There are mountains and mountains of American materiel in most allied countries. Israel is actually getting the shortest stick. Only reason Israel keeps coming up is because what aid we supply to Israel is actually being used.


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> What are you even talking about? There are mountains and mountains of American materiel in most allied countries. Israel is actually getting the shortest stick. Only reason Israel keeps coming up is because what aid we supply to Israel is actually being used.



This is laughable considering how many defense contracts have construction in Israel (Raytheon comes to mind) and actually in a nice little PDF I found only Afghanistan got more military aid in millions than Israel from 2001 to 2009.  It's stayed somewhat consistent since then.



How are they getting the short end of the stick?  How?  

See Blue this is why you suck sometimes.


----------



## Blue (Mar 20, 2015)

Mael said:


> This is laughable considering how many defense contracts have construction in Israel (Raytheon comes to mind) and actually in a nice little PDF I found only Afghanistan got more military aid in millions than Israel from 2001 to 2009.  It's stayed somewhat consistent since then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How many American military bases are in Israel?

What kind of aid numbers do you suppose that would add up to, if they were included?

Israel gets more military aid because it's the only country (besides, as you mentioned, Afghanistan) that needs it. There are other kinds of aid.



Blue said:


> How many American military bases are in Israel?



The answer is "zero" by the way, in case there are any tinfoils or retards present.


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> How many American military bases are in Israel?
> 
> What kind of aid numbers do you suppose that would add up to, if they were included?
> 
> Israel gets more military aid because it's the only country (besides, as you mentioned, Afghanistan) that needs it. There are other kinds of aid.



So what?  What do bases actually matter?

If there were then yeah you'd see more aid money going into it.  But what I don't get too is how you just said they're getting the short end of the stick.  With all this money and all these defense contracts, you just said something incredibly stupid.  You act like we OWE Israel something.  We don't.


----------



## Blue (Mar 20, 2015)

Mael said:


> So what?  What do bases actually matter?
> 
> If there were then yeah you'd see more aid money going into it.  But what I don't get too is how you just said they're getting the short end of the stick.  With all this money and all these defense contracts, you just said something incredibly stupid.  You act like we OWE Israel something.  We don't.



We have an alliance with them. We absolutely do owe them. That's what alliances are for.

If Sweden invaded the UK next week, you'd better believe that the UK would get more military aid than they'd know what to do with. Israel isn't actually getting all that much considering their existence has been threatened 3 times in the last 70 years. A legacy of when aid to Israel antagonized the USSR.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> Your bias is getting the better of you.
> 
> We didn't halt aid until that legitimately elected leader was overthrown by a military coup, and even that was apparently a hard decision for Obama.



You're right, my bad.

My point still stands though. No other country can get away with as much as Israel is, without being expected to contribute way more than Israel is.

And financial and military aid isn't the end of it. The UN-Veto-aid the US has been given Israel exclusively for decades has cost you way more politically, while serving you very little.


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> We have an alliance with them. We absolutely do owe them. That's what alliances are for.
> 
> If Sweden invaded the UK next week, you'd better believe that the UK would get more military aid than they'd know what to do with. Israel isn't actually getting all that much considering their existence has been threatened 3 times in the last 70 years. A legacy of when aid to Israel antagonized the USSR.



No we don't.  They owe us.  We give and give and get so little in return.

And cute that you ignored numbers so much.  They got the most next to Afghanistan, in comparison to ALL the other nations we give military aid to.

If anything you're acting like Israel's bitch.  I cannot believe you as an American think we owe these uppity Israelis anything, considering we bail them out of every UN action and had to save them during Golda Meir's time.  We're the big boss, Blue.  People work for US, not the other way around.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> Israel gets more military aid because it's the only country (besides, as you mentioned, Afghanistan) *that needs it*.



They need it, really? Mega certainly doesn't seem to think so.


----------



## Blue (Mar 20, 2015)

Mael said:


> No we don't.  They owe us.  We give and give and get so little in return.



We get - and this addresses SoG as well - the confidence of our allies that we will not abandon them when the sun stops shining. That's worth more than anything. Being an American ally is gold, and every country that's worth anything is one.



Son of Goku said:


> They need it, really? Mega certainly doesn't seem to think so.



Can use it, then. 

UK doesn't need missile defenses.

Japan does, however. And you know what? Japan has them.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 20, 2015)

I said once before only Israel has the power to insult their ally & their President . They are awarded with more support & aid .


----------



## Blue (Mar 20, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> I said once before only Israel has the power to insult their ally & their President . They are awarded with more support & aid .



They're allowed to do that. We told the UK to get fucked when they joined China's fake world bank. They told us to bugger off in return. Life goes on.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 20, 2015)

btw,

Israel= universal healthcare
America=Still waiting for that

I find it hilarious that we give so much aid to a country and their citizens end up having a better standard of living than our own. Not a criticism of Israel btw, but of the hilarious irony of U.S priorities.


----------



## Blue (Mar 20, 2015)

KidTony said:


> btw,
> 
> Israel= universal healthcare
> America=Still waiting for that
> ...



dis trolling

I'm out


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> We get - and this addresses SoG as well - the confidence of our allies that we will not abandon them when the sun stops shining. That's worth more than anything. Being an American ally is gold, and every country that's worth anything is one.



Compared to the hate you've generated for decades by supporting an illegal occupation and tieing down the UN's hands to prevent them to do anything about it, this confidence thing does very little. If anything your Israel policy destroyed confidence in a just America that will hold every country, including allies, to the same standards.


----------



## KidTony (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> dis trolling
> 
> I'm out



Well Maybe i'm talking shit 

Just found it funny they have like some of the best healthcare in the world, and receive massive aid from us, and in contrast we, the the largest economy in the world, bla bla bla still have shit healthcare.


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> We get - and this addresses SoG as well - the confidence of our allies that we will not abandon them when the sun stops shining. That's worth more than anything. Being an American ally is gold, and every country that's worth anything is one.



Right, and being an American ally also means pulling your own fucking weight and not trying to tell America what to do in regards to its own defense.  Again you're trying to say being an American ally is awesome but that means letting America do everything for you especially on the world stage.  For someone who is supposedly economically savvy, the concept of quid pro quo is VERY foreign to you.



Blue said:


> They're allowed to do that. We told the UK to get fucked when they joined China's fake world bank. They told us to bugger off in return. Life goes on.



Bullshit.  You didn't even bat an eye when Israel insulting the way America conducted its governmental business and reduced the GOP to the biggest Israel sycophant since AIPAC.  If Israel did what the UK did, you wouldn't see the same thing, guaranteed.  You're creating a false equivalence.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> They're allowed to do that. We told the UK to get fucked when they joined China's fake world bank. They told us to bugger off in return. Life goes on.



Why wouldn't they? You did not give them 2380000000 dollars from 2001-09.

And did UK make a mockery of US? No. So your comparison don't work here.


----------



## hcheng02 (Mar 20, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Like when you halted the aid for Egypt, cause you didn't like its (elected) leader? This has never even been used as a threat to Israel. Don't kid yourself, Israel has much more leeway. They-get-caught-trying-to-sink-one-of-your-ships-and-you-don't-move-a-finger level of leeway.



As Blue said, Obama only PARTIALLY suspended aid after the coup because he couldn't keep up the fiction - Obama was really stretching for a while by claiming that Sisi didn't plot a coup - that a military overthrow of a democratic leader didn't happen. US law outright states that the US can't give aid for that. Even then, its not lasting long. 





> U.S. to Decide Soon on Restoring Military Aid to Egypt
> 
> By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICKMARCH 14, 2015
> Secretary of State John Kerry speaking in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, on Saturday. Credit Pool
> ...



And Egypt has been way more disrespectful to the US than Israel. Hell, at least most of the Israelis have positive feelings for the US. We don't have that with Egypt, and they've been outright killing their political foes by the thousands. Bibi's rants about Arabs voting is Fox News dog whistle bullshit compared to that. 

And Mael, the USA bailed out Egypt during the 1973 war too. The entire Egyptian 3rd Army was surrounded by the IDF at that point, and Kissinger used it as leverage to forge a peace with Egypt and bring them to the US sphere from under the USSR. The Israelis do provide anti-terorrism training, equipment, and intel. We only see the costs of Israel's aid because it directly tallied in dollars because we don't indirectly fund their defense via military bases. Military bases are like the pensions and employment insurance of foreign aid, it has real big costs but you don't see them directly because they aren't spelled out in front of you.


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> And Mael, the USA bailed out Egypt during the 1973 war too. The entire Egyptian 3rd Army was surrounded by the IDF at that point, and Kissinger used it as leverage to forge a peace with Egypt and bring them to the US sphere from under the USSR. The Israelis do provide anti-terorrism training, equipment, and intel. We only see the costs of Israel's aid because it directly tallied in dollars because we don't indirectly fund their defense via military bases. Military bases are like the pensions and employment insurance of foreign aid, it has real big costs but you don't see them directly because they aren't spelled out in front of you.



And this is how it works.  Israel is still given an ample amount of aid to the point where it can be established that they can curbstomp most Arab/Persian nations.  What I don't like is all this aid and then one of the bigger middle fingers right back.  Israel purports itself as better than its Arab neighbors and more responsible, yet it comes here to try to order around the very hand that feeds it?  No, I'm not having it.  If you're going to rely on us to protect you from the UNSC, you better show some fucking gratitude you uppity little shite.


----------



## baconbits (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> I bet the butthurt in this thread was amazing.



It was pretty satisfying to see.  People hate the realists and Israel for suggesting its okay to fight terrorist states.


----------



## hcheng02 (Mar 20, 2015)

Mael said:


> And this is how it works.  Israel is still given an ample amount of aid to the point where it can be established that they can curbstomp most Arab/Persian nations.  What I don't like is all this aid and then one of the bigger middle fingers right back.  Israel purports itself as better than its Arab neighbors and more responsible, yet it comes here to try to order around the very hand that feeds it?  No, I'm not having it.  If you're going to rely on us to protect you from the UNSC, you better show some fucking gratitude you uppity little shite.



And Israel is pretty responsible with US aid, all things considered. We've had US soldiers die in wars from fighting for Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Kuwait but none for Israel. All those Arab allies pretty much mocked the USA when they gave aid to Egypt after its coup and forced the US to cut its aid. Shenanigans like Saudi Arabia spreading wahabihism spreads more extremism and terrorism against the US than Israel ever did (there were Saudi hijackers in 9/11, but no Israelis). And that's before we account for Turkey, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia basically allowing ISIS to spread by giving them funds or allowing fighters to go through. Israel hasn't caused nearly as much trouble, the Arab-Palestinian war is a fucking sideshow in the Middle East. All that aid is business for military contractors that help develop new tech - you honestly think the US isn't going to benefit from field testing info from the Iron Dome Project?

Netanyahu might have rude manners and his political acts are petty, but you have to remember something - his opposition to the Iran deal is also shared by Herzog and the Zionist United leaders that the Democrats were rooting to win. And those concerns are shared by the rest of the USA's Arab allies. They might be more discreet about it, but they still think that Obama is going for a bad deal. This drama is no worse then the crap the Europeans gave us during Dubya Bush's era.


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

baconbits said:


> It was pretty satisfying to see.  People hate the realists and Israel for suggesting its okay to fight terrorist states.



If Israel isn't going to fight Iran and expects the US to do it, they can go to hell for all I care.  Period end.  Want someone done in?  You better prep yourself to deploy.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 20, 2015)

baconbits said:


> It was pretty satisfying to see.  People hate the realists and Israel for suggesting its okay to fight terrorist states.


By fighting terrorist States you mean take down the only Country that is preventing Saudi from commiting massive genocide?


----------



## hcheng02 (Mar 20, 2015)

Mael said:


> If Israel isn't going to fight Iran and expects the US to do it, they can go to hell for all I care.  Period end.  Want someone done in?  You better prep yourself to deploy.



Didn't Israel already ask for permission to attack Iran twice by itself? When the hell has Israel asked the USA to fight its wars?


----------



## Mael (Mar 20, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> Didn't Israel already ask for permission to attack Iran twice by itself? When the hell has Israel asked the USA to fight its wars?



They did:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/sep/25/iran.israelandthepalestinians1

Wanna know why the US rejected?  Because it was going to put us further in the line of fire.  US troops were already dealing with Qods Force and Shia militias.  The rate of attacks would've grown exponentially over something that wasn't our fight because we were still in Iraq.  Americans were looking out for Americans first and I wouldn't have it any other way.


----------



## hcheng02 (Mar 20, 2015)

Mael said:


> They did:
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/sep/25/iran.israelandthepalestinians1
> 
> Wanna know why the US rejected?  Because it was going to put us further in the line of fire.  US troops were already dealing with Qods Force and Shia militias.  The rate of attacks would've grown exponentially over something that wasn't our fight because we were still in Iraq.  Americans were looking out for Americans first and I wouldn't have it any other way.



Fair enough. 

I suspect all this drama will be forgotten with the new president - hopefully Hillary.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 20, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> When the hell has Israel asked the USA to fight its wars?



[YOUTUBE]XZceI-o2tSA[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 20, 2015)

Blue said:


> I bet the butthurt in this thread was amazing.



Pretty much. It's pretty good in Israel among the left and conspiratards too.

And this whole "fight Israel's wars" shit is nonsense. If US was going to fight Israel's wars it would have invaded Syria or Iran who were/are bigger threats then Saddam was.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Mar 20, 2015)

Utter fools. Israel has doomed themselves.


----------



## N120 (Mar 20, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Pretty much. It's pretty good in Israel among the left and conspiratards too.
> 
> And this whole "fight Israel's wars" shit is nonsense. If US was going to fight Israel's wars it would have invaded Syria or Iran who were/are bigger threats then Saddam was.



 I think I've heard that claim being made against almost every country and organisation by now, I'd be more surprised if someone didn't make that list as fulfilling that important role of 'the threat' to Israel by this point. 

even Israelis themselves havent escaped that accusation


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 20, 2015)

There's a reason why Jewish Americans vote Democrat more and support Obama than Bibi.


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 20, 2015)

*Steve King: Why would American Jews be Democrat first and Israel Second.*

Oh the Irony...





> Rep. Steve King of Iowa said he doesn?t understand how American Jews can be ?Democrats first and Jewish second? and support President Obama?s approach to Israel.
> ?Well, there were some 50 or so Democrats that decided they would boycott the president?s speech. One thing that?s happened is ? just look at the polling, that means ? here is what thing that I don?t understand, I don?t understand how Jews in America can be Democrats first and Jewish second and support Israel along the line of just following their president,? said the Iowa Republican on Boston Herald radio Friday, asked about members of Congress who did not attend Israeli Prime Minster Benjamin Netanyahu?s address to Congress earlier in the month.
> ?And it?s all ? it says this, they?re knee-jerk supporters for the president?s policy. The president?s policies throughout the Middle East have been a disaster. I would say to them, name a country where we have better relations today than we had when Barack Obama took office?? And I gave that in speeches in about six weeks until some lad stood up and said, ?I can name you two, they are Cuba and Iran.??
> Asked if anti-Semitism was a factor, he said it was a component along with ?just plain liberalism.?
> ?I see it growing. I?m amazed to see this happen. It?s a phenomenon that I did not expect to see in post-World War II, the revulsion of what I saw. But anti-Semitism is a component of this and just plain liberalism is another component. I mean the president wants the world to be, he thinks somehow he can force the world can be the world he myopically believes it is. You have to be a realist.?


----------



## Zaru (Mar 20, 2015)

Jews in the USA are more religious towards "liberal" leftism and related causes than to the jewish religion and jewish identity. It's curious, but won't change just because some republican complains.


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 20, 2015)

Zaru said:


> Jews in the USA are more religious towards "liberal" leftism and related causes than to the jewish religion and jewish identity. It's curious, but won't change just because some republican complains.



it's not that curious

secularism abides


----------



## Zaru (Mar 20, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> it's not that curious
> 
> secularism abides



That doesn't explain WHY they are so much more secular than

- Israelis
- Pretty much any sizable demographic in the USA


----------



## N120 (Mar 20, 2015)

Maybe because being a Jew =/=israeli. They are Americans not israeli, they can be jewish anywhere.

Painting every Jew with the same brush is as anti Semitic as it gets, it's also one of the reasons I'm against Zionism.


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 20, 2015)

Steve King thinks all Jews think alike. How anti-Semitic this bigot is...

The guy is also a bigot against African-Americans, Latinos, Arabs, etc.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Mar 20, 2015)

Oh, this piece of shit...


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 20, 2015)

The more important question is why should the Sunni world wide support Saudis genocidal quest, and Why America is sucking Saudi's wahhabis cock


----------



## N120 (Mar 20, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> The more important question is why should the Sunni world wide support Saudis genocidal quest, and Why America is sucking Saudi's wahhabis cock



That generalisation is as anti Semitic and racist as the comments made by the rep.

being muslim doesn't mean you support either iran or Saudi Arabia, nor does it mean they wish to be a part of these establishments. Saudi has as much to with representing islam and muslim as israel does Judaism and jews, they don't.

As for US supporting the Saudis and Israelis, it was never about friendship, they simply serve their national interest. The US would drop both at the drop of a hat if they didn't.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Mar 20, 2015)

Theoretically, if there are indeed mass sanctions and a pullout of aid for Israel, would they be able to ride it out or forced to comply after a few years?

And if sanctions do indeed force a pullout out of the West Bank, will that in anyway bring an end to the conflict, or will Palestinian extremists perceive the abandonment of Israel as giving them free reign to exact revenge on any Jew they find for the settlements and so forth?

This is why while the sentiment to say "Fuck Israel, let them burn!" is quite popular now, no thanks to Bibi, is that really going to help things in the long run considering even pro-Pali groups have admitted issues like Hamas and IJ still need to be addressed.


----------



## Megaharrison (Mar 20, 2015)

So turns out the town in Israel that voted the highest for Likud was , btw

I lol'd. Herp derp muh apartheid.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Mar 20, 2015)

Zaru said:


> Jews in the USA are more religious towards "liberal" leftism and related causes than to the jewish religion and jewish identity. It's curious, but won't change just because some republican complains.





Zaru said:


> That doesn't explain WHY they are so much more secular than
> 
> - Israelis
> - Pretty much any sizable demographic in the USA


Because A) Jews have far more atheists and agnostics than just about any other cultural group.

and B) We've seen over centuries of religious based violence why secularism is fucking needed.

Also jews on the whole are more economically left wing because that's just how our culture is. Working together for the good of the community. Kinda how we survived over the centuries. Such bullshit as right wing individualism? HAH! Fuck that.

Hell, Israeli kibbutzes were/are communism in action.

The exception of course being the assholes who got rich like Sheldon Addelson or the old farts who are just as racist and paranoid as other old farts.


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 20, 2015)

Zaru said:


> That doesn't explain WHY they are so much more secular than
> 
> - Israelis
> - Pretty much any sizable demographic in the USA



- because israel is literally the jewish homeland and it enshrines judaism in its constitution and so on. s'not a theocracy but judaism has pride of place

- because they tend to be more affluent and educated and what sunny said


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 20, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> Theoretically, if there are indeed mass sanctions and a pullout of aid for Israel, would they be able to ride it out or forced to comply after a few years?



Worked for South Africa.



> And if sanctions do indeed force a pullout out of the West Bank, will that in anyway bring an end to the conflict, or will Palestinian extremists perceive the abandonment of Israel as giving them free reign to exact revenge on any Jew they find for the settlements and so forth?



With the end of the occupation Palestinian extremism will run out of supporters. Not over night, but it will happen. Without the constant reminder of Israeli oppression, hatred for Israel will take a backseat and people will be more busy building a thriving Palestine.

But guys like Mega won't give this a chance, cause the occupation is cheap and comfortable. Giving it up is unnecessary and unprofitable. For guys like Bennett, who believe that the West Bank belongs to the Jews by right, it's even outright heresy.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Mar 20, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> With the end of the occupation Palestinian extremism will run out of supporters. Not over night, but it will happen. Without the constant reminder of Israeli oppression, hatred for Israel will take a backseat and people will be more busy building a thriving Palestine.
> 
> But guys like Mega won't give this a chance, cause the occupation is cheap and comfortable. Giving it up is unnecessary and unprofitable. For guys like Bennett, who believe that the West Bank belongs to the Jews by right, it's even outright heresy.



Here's the thing though, Israeli Jews, though perhaps more religious than American/Euro Jews, are still considerably more secular, whereas Palestinians would likely push for Islamism if they get right of return. Not to mention, there are still a considerable number of extremists who don't simply want a free Palestine for the West Bank, but to have the entire region fall under their control, ie the rest of Israel.

For the record, if it is true that Hamas would lose its support in the event of a drawdown on the West Bank, I'd be fine with that. I just don't see much reason to believe that would be the case.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 20, 2015)

Zaru said:


> That doesn't explain WHY they are so much more secular than
> 
> - Israelis
> - Pretty much any sizable demographic in the USA



The same reason not why every muslim don't support SA. Mecca & Medina is their holyland sure but that's pretty much it.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Mar 20, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> Here's the thing though, Israeli Jews, though perhaps more religious than American/Euro Jews, are still considerably more secular, whereas Palestinians would likely push for Islamism if they get right of return.



Can you really blame them? they have been used as pawns for a very long time. Even if they find allies in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq or Iran, they would not be fully accepted there as well. 



Kagekatsu said:


> Not to mention, there are still a considerable number of extremists who don't simply want a free Palestine for the West Bank, but to have the entire region fall under their control, ie the rest of Israel.



Point proven.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 20, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> Here's the thing though, Israeli Jews, though perhaps more religious than American/Euro Jews, are still considerably more secular, whereas Palestinians would likely push for Islamism if they get right of return.



Why would Palestinians push for Islamism? That's the kind of crap the Netanyahus in this world tell everyone so they won't have to budge.



> Not to mention, there are still a considerable number of extremists who don't simply want a free Palestine for the West Bank, but to have the entire region fall under their control, ie the rest of Israel.



You have those guys in Israel too, as I mentioned Bennett. They would have to deal with reality and be forced to by security forces if need be.




> For the record, if it is true that Hamas would lose its support in the event of a drawdown on the West Bank, I'd be fine with that. I just don't see much reason to believe that would be the case.



Well it all depends on how fair the final deal will be for the Palestinans. If most Palestinians were left with a feeling of being screwed over, their sense of having to struggle for more would continue and you'd have a point. 
The Palestinian State must end up as a sovereign and viable state with the prospect of becoming a thriving economy. That's the best counter to extremism.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Mar 20, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Why would Palestinians push for Islamism? That's the kind of crap the Netanyahus in this world tell everyone so they won't have to budge.


The fact that Hamas still holds most seats in the Palestine legislative council and is a hard line Islamist party as evident by its support from the Muslim Brotherhood is an indicator Islamism holds a strong sway among segments of the Palestinian population. 



Son of Goku said:


> You have those guys in Israel too, as I mentioned Bennett. They would have to deal with reality and be forced to by security forces if need be.


It requires both sides to be willing to turn the cheek, and while in time I see Israel being willing to rein in the uber-right if pressure is placed, it is still up to Palestine to keep their extremists in check as well.



Son of Goku said:


> The Palestinian State must end up as a sovereign and viable state with the prospect of becoming a thriving economy. That's the best counter to extremism.


That is true, however with Hamas still holding considerable influence, plus Fatah's near endemic corruption, it's going to take a lot more than just goodwill to actually ensure that.

The point is, don't assume that sanctions and pressure to force Israel to change will guarantee some form of Rainbow Nation in the Middle East when there are still considerable cultural and social challenges that the Palestinians themselves need to address without others making excuses for them.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 21, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> The fact that Hamas still holds most seats in the Palestine legislative council and is a hard line Islamist party as evident by its support from the Muslim Brotherhood is an indicator Islamism holds a strong sway among segments of the Palestinian population.



Thanks to the occupation and to the dire circumstances. But even so, as hard as it is to believe, not all of Hamas is advocating the death of Jews and the destruction of Israel. It will be key to strengthen the moderates in Hamas and start talking to them, instead of demonizing them along with their in-house enemies.



> It requires both sides to be willing to turn the cheek, and while in time I see Israel being willing to rein in the uber-right if pressure is placed, it is still up to Palestine to keep their extremists in check as well.



That goes without saying.



> That is true, however with Hamas still holding considerable influence, plus Fatah's near endemic corruption, it's going to take a lot more than just goodwill to actually ensure that.
> 
> The point is, don't assume that sanctions and pressure to force Israel to change will guarantee some form of Rainbow Nation in the Middle East when there are still considerable cultural and social challenges that the Palestinians themselves need to address without others making excuses for them.



Like I said, change won't happen over night. But it is bound to happen, when the occupation ends and Israelis (Jews) stop being responsible for the oppression of Palestinians (Arabs/Muslims). The transition won't be easy, and I'm sure there will be setbacks, but every day the occupation continues will make it even harder.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 21, 2015)

> *Why it's time for Obama to cut off America's subsidies to Israel*
> 
> _Ryan Cooper
> March 20, 2015
> ...


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Mar 21, 2015)

You people give money to Israel?


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 21, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> Palestinians would likely push for Islamism if they get right of return.


I don't see the problem
You morons had no problem handing Libya and Syria over to Wahhabis


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Mael said:


> Right, and being an American ally also means pulling your own fucking weight and not trying to tell America what to do in regards to its own defense.  Again you're trying to say being an American ally is awesome but that means letting America do everything for you especially on the world stage.  For someone who is supposedly economically savvy, the concept of quid pro quo is VERY foreign to you.


You should leave trying to insult me to Seto. It doesn't work for him, and it doesn't work for you.

There is no quid pro quo in American diplomacy. We don't care what our allies say or do or contribute. Because none of that is material.

What is material is keeping the first world (read: America and its allies) out of armed conflict, so we can continue trading with them, which generates a literal thousand times more wealth than we spend defending our allies.

And that means letting the shitbags of the world know (this includes every single country that Israel borders, including Egypt) that if you attack an American ally, you forfeit everything, even if that ally has been an awful dick to us.


----------



## Mael (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> You should leave trying to insult me to Seto. It doesn't work for him, and it doesn't work for you.
> 
> There is no quid pro quo in American diplomacy. We don't care what our allies say or do or contribute. Because none of that is material.
> 
> ...



Then that's where we differ.  I for one don't feel like wasting blood and treasure on people who expect we owe them something when they give so little back.  I can at least give our Asian allies credit as they keep trying to do their own thing without the same shit that Israel pulls off like with these settlements.  Also there's zero religiosity involved.  I really do wish sometimes that the entirety of the "Holy Land" be bombarded from orbit, because no Abrahamic follower deserves it.

And Blue, just because you supposedly joined the Navy doesn't mean I still can't think of you as an elitist douchebag.


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 21, 2015)

Mael said:


> And Blue, just because you supposedly joined the Navy doesn't mean I still can't think of you as an elitist douchebag.



well, sure, but you think of almost everyone who disagrees with you as one of those, so you can maintain the perpetual chip on your shoulder, and continue to affect the blue-collar telling-it-like-it-is attitude of a wise realist 

despite your liberal arts degree


----------



## Mael (Mar 21, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> well, sure, but you think of almost everyone who disagrees with you as one of those, so you can maintain the perpetual chip on your shoulder, and continue to affect the blue-collar telling-it-like-it-is attitude of a wise realist



Actually no.  You clearly haven't seen Blue in his final form if you really have to disagree with this.

And you also haven't been paying attention because it's usually just Blue that gets that moniker.  Everyone else varies...like smarmy limeys like you and Sasuke_Bateman.



> despite your liberal arts degree



Mistakes happen.  My life goal now is to tell people how much of a waste liberal arts actually are.


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Mael said:


> And Blue, just because you supposedly joined the Navy doesn't mean I still can't think of you as an elitist douchebag.



You're acting like I even expect you to care about that. If it makes you feel better about (supposedly) being a drooling jarhead, I'm only doing it because it'll look good on my CV.



Mael said:


> Actually no.  You clearly haven't seen Blue in his final form if you really have to disagree with this.



He is one of the very few people in the world who have seen my final form


----------



## Mael (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> You're acting like I even expect you to care about that. If it makes you feel better about (supposedly) being a drooling jarhead, I'm only doing it because it'll look good on my CV.



Actually if you were a Marine you'd be a jarhead.

Navy folks are squids.

Have fun, calamari.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> What is material is keeping the first world (read: America and its allies) out of armed conflict, so we can continue trading with them, which generates a literal thousand times more wealth than we spend defending our allies.



How about keeping the rest of the world out of armed conflicts as well, so you can trade with them instead, which would then generate ten thousand times more wealth than you spend on subduing and dominating them? Just a thought.


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> How about keeping the rest of the world out of armed conflicts as well, so you can trade with them instead, which would then generate ten thousand times more wealth than you spend on subduing and dominating them? Just a thought.


They're poor and stupid and would rather kill each other and themselves. 
See: Russia.

It's not worth the effort

Best that can be done is keep them contained until they stop acting like rabid animals

My personal opinion is that saving hundreds of thousands or millions of lives IS worth the effort of stopping armed conflicts in the developing world, because, you know, morality, but basically nobody in the US government except Samantha Power agrees with me.

And even if we did you'd just be in here shitposting about how the US is being imperialistic again, so.


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 21, 2015)

holy shit there is actually a high-up US govt employee called "Samantha Power"

that's awesome


----------



## Mael (Mar 21, 2015)

Several years actually:


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> holy shit there is actually a high-up US govt employee called "Samantha Power"
> 
> that's awesome



She wrote 

It's pretty much the basis for my foreign policy views.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> They're poor and stupid and would rather kill each other and themselves.
> See: Russia.
> 
> It's not worth the effort
> ...



Sheesh, you never disappoint.  

Not in a good way though...



> My personal opinion is that saving hundreds of thousands or millions of lives IS worth the effort of stopping armed conflicts in the developing world, because, you know, morality, but basically nobody in the US government except Samantha Power agrees with me.
> 
> And even if we did you'd just be in here shitposting about how the US is being imperialistic again, so.



Well yeah I probably would, since coming from you it would mean more 'bombs for freedom and peace'. Which 1. is never the true intention and 2. hardly ever works.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> She wrote
> 
> It's pretty much the basis for my foreign policy views.



Her book must be pretty shitty then.


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Her book must be pretty shitty then.



Not like you'll ever know.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> Not like you'll ever know.



I know your foreign policy is shitty & you just said her book is the basis for it.


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> She wrote
> 
> It's pretty much the basis for my foreign policy views.



>it's available in my uni's library system both online and in physical form

score


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue, I gotta ask: It seems that you're in favor of America policing the world to save lifes and prevent genocides, correct? Now how is America supposed to fit in the role of the World-POLICE, without being impartial and free of selfinterests? You thought of that? Has Mrs. Powers?


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Blue, I gotta ask: It seems that you're in favor of America policing the world to save lifes and prevent genocides, correct? Now how is America supposed to fit in the role of the World-POLICE, without being impartial and free of selfinterests? You thought of that? Has Mrs. Powers?



No country will ever be impartial or free of self-interests. No organization will ever be, no person will ever be. 

But when civilians are dying at the rate of a thousand a day, sitting back and going "well, stopping this wholesale slaughter of human beings wouldn't be entirely outside our interests, we should keep our noses out of it" would be laughable if it wasn't morally reprehensible. 

That sort of ivory-tower bullshit is also the main source of criticism for Power's conclusions about the west's role in stopping mass killings; the idea that because military intervention would itself result in thousands or tens of thousands of civilian casualties, which is itself "genocide", intervention to save hundreds of thousands or millions is unjustifiable. 

Which is, of course, armchair bullshit of the purest grade.


----------



## Zyrax (Mar 21, 2015)

America never gave a single shit about "Preventing Genocide". Their support for a Genocidal maniac like Pakistan who killed 3 million Bangdaleshi Proves this. 
Its always been about Profit, Why do you think they took down Gaddafi "Because he was about to commit genocide" when recently a CIA report showed that he never intended to commit one, Not to mention The lack of Media coverage on the actual genocide on The Black Libyans by the Libyan Rebels, Or the fact that America helped The Bahrain and Yemen goverment crush the rebels in there country.


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> America never gave a single shit about "Preventing Genocide".



Yes, dear, I know

I'm not happy about that


----------



## Esdese (Mar 21, 2015)

mfw every time I read Blue's posts it's like, I hear my dad talking


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 21, 2015)

Steve Israel confronts Steve King for his comments about Jewish Democrats. Steve Israel happens to be Jewish so... yeah.


----------



## Son of Goku (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> No country will ever be impartial or free of self-interests. No organization will ever be, no person will ever be.



100% and in all times? Of course not. Perfection is a rare thing, especially when it's man-made. But I still wouldn't trust the guy with the biggest gun collection, with the safety of my neighbourhood, that's what the police (i.e. UN, however imperfect) is for. One guy shouldn't wield such power and neither should one country. 



> But when civilians are dying at the rate of a thousand a day, sitting back and going "well, stopping this wholesale slaughter of human beings wouldn't be entirely outside our interests, we should keep our noses out of it" would be laughable if it wasn't morally reprehensible.
> 
> That sort of ivory-tower bullshit is also the main source of criticism for Power's conclusions about the west's role in stopping mass killings; the idea that because military intervention would itself result in thousands or tens of thousands of civilian casualties, which is itself "genocide", intervention to save hundreds of thousands or millions is unjustifiable.
> 
> Which is, of course, armchair bullshit of the purest grade.



You're actually an idealist, who would've thought! 

Sorry, but the US simply hasn't the credibility to pin itself the sheriff's badge on anymore. Unfortunately, that ship has long since sailed. It's also quite naive (or just too idealistic) to ask of any country to go to war out of pure selflessness and solely to save lifes. That stuff only ever happens in fictional work. In real life such idealistic ideas are only ever put to action to serve a far less idealistic (if not outright evil) ulterior motive.


----------



## Chelydra (Mar 21, 2015)

Yeah you see, we kinda stopped giving a fuck after ungrateful savages dragged our men through the streets for trying to help them put a stop to the widespread famine that was gripping their shite country 

And our further interventions have only gone to show that the people are not ready or unable to accept modern concepts and culture, and when given a free and fair choice will always revert back to their 15 century ideas and ways, so it really is better to simply contain and isolate them from the rest of the world rather than try and seriously help them.


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Sorry, but the US simply hasn't the credibility to pin itself the sheriff's badge on anymore.





We don't need credibility or a badge

We have a military that could take on every other country in the world conventionally and win, easily

The responsibility is wholly ours to accept or reject.

You mention the UN, but without the US military the UN has no ability to do anything militarily. Same with NATO.


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 21, 2015)

> We have a military that could take on every other country in the world conventionally and win, easily



i assume you didn't mean to phrase that to imply every other country put together, just every other country individually


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 21, 2015)

So, no one is commenting that there is an anti-Semite within the GOP?


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> i assume you didn't mean to phrase that to imply every other country put together, just every other country individually



No, every other country put together. The everyone alliance vs. the US, no nukes, final destination.

US would be done with everyone inside of a month as long as we're only counting destroying standing militaries and not actual conquest. I don't know how world conquest would work, because nobody's ever done it, but I assume it wouldn't be easy even for no-public-opinion bloodlusted America.



NeoTerraKnight said:


> So, no one is commenting that there is an anti-Semite within the GOP?



Well there's like 50 anti-semites in the Dems, so I don't think it's anything to write home about.


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Mar 21, 2015)

NeoTerraKnight said:


> So, no one is commenting that there is an anti-Semite within the GOP?



Really? I think it's probably hard to hear him/her among the horde of hardcore zionists.


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> No, every other country put together. The everyone alliance vs. the US, no nukes, final destination.
> 
> US would be done with everyone inside of a month as long as we're only counting destroying standing militaries and not actual conquest. I don't know how world conquest would work, because nobody's ever done it, but I assume it wouldn't be easy even for no-public-opinion bloodlusted America.



You sure? Russia and China together have a lot of weaponry and armies.

And territory size. Don't underestimate the power of territory size. There's a reason no one has ever conquered Russia despite them being weaker than their opponents in most major wars.


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> No, every other country put together. The everyone alliance vs. the US, no nukes, final destination.
> 
> US would be done with everyone inside of a month as long as we're only counting destroying standing militaries and not actual conquest. I don't know how world conquest would work, because nobody's ever done it, but I assume it wouldn't be easy even for no-public-opinion bloodlusted America.



...

blue...

pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssse

america would be outnumbered by like 20 to 1 and the tech gap is not big enough to surmount that


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> You sure? Russia and China together have a lot of weaponry and armies.
> 
> And territory size. Don't underestimate the power of territory size. There's a reason no one has ever conquered Russia despite them being weaker than their opponents in most major wars.





Lucaniel said:


> ...
> 
> blue...
> 
> ...



I did specify no conquest, remember. 

But what you have to realize is that the air war is all that matters. If you lose air superiority, all that's left is waiting your turn to die, because air forces can see you on foot from 10000 feet and put a bomb literally through your chest. 

And the USAF would establish global air superiority inside of a week. It's not just tech; it actually outnumbers the rest of the world, too. The world's second biggest air force by combat aircraft is the US Navy.


----------



## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> Well there's like 50 anti-semites in the Dems, so I don't think it's anything to write home about.



But there's many Jewish Democrats in Congress while there's only ONE in the Republican Majority. Not to mention that more Jewish Americans vote Democrat.


----------



## Lucaniel (Mar 21, 2015)

Blue said:


> I did specify no conquest, remember.
> 
> But what you have to realize is that the air war is all that matters. If you lose air superiority, all that's left is waiting your turn to die, because air forces can see you on foot from 10000 feet and put a bomb literally through your chest.
> 
> And the USAF would establish global air superiority inside of a week. It's not just tech; it actually outnumbers the rest of the world, too. The world's second biggest air force by combat aircraft is the US Navy.



russia and china together have as many combat aircraft as america, and then when you add the rest of the world in it's prolly something like a 2:1 advantage, and the rest of the world put together has the same number of aircraft carriers


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 21, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> russia and china together have as many combat aircraft as america, and then when you add the rest of the world in it's prolly something like a 2:1 advantage, and the rest of the world put together has the same number of aircraft carriers


Russia and CHina's aircraft numbers and tech kind of suck compared to the USAF and US Navy. Blue's right on the fact that the US Air Force is bigger, stronger, and better than all others in the world combined.


----------



## Blue (Mar 21, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> russia and china together have as many combat aircraft as america, and then when you add the rest of the world in it's prolly something like a 2:1 advantage, and the rest of the world put together has the same number of aircraft carriers



That's where the tech advantage comes in

The F-15 has a 104-0 kill-death ratio in the real world

And that's not even our final form, the F-22 is a bazillion to one against F-15s in war games, some F-15 pilot got super lucky and visually located an F-22 and killed it with his cannon.

Also, America has the only real aircraft carriers in the world. The UK is building a couple, one's almost done. Of course, they're worthless without the F-35s they're designed to carry.

The rest are what the US calls "" and we have like a dozen more of those. 

Other countries call them carriers to feel cool, but they're not.

Well, I mean, they carry aircraft, so I guess in that regard...


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## Lucaniel (Mar 21, 2015)

hmmmm

fair enough 

it's certainly a good boast to have in your pocket


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## N120 (Mar 22, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> ...
> 
> blue...
> 
> ...



It's this over-confidence that bogs them down in wars that go on forever.


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## Chelydra (Mar 22, 2015)

N120 said:


> It's this over-confidence that bogs them down in wars that go on forever.



No its because we try to fix shit after we deal with threats that cause trouble, if we just dealt with them militarily and left most of our wars would be over in days/weeks. Admittedly leaving people to rot after our military achieves its objective maybe better in the long run, rather than pulling this nation building shit.


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## Destroyer of Kittens (Mar 22, 2015)

As awesome as war-gaming the everyone vs the US would be I think it is important to remember that a very large portion of Americas war-fighting comes from its impressive global logistics.  It can deliver force anywhere in the world and sustain high intensity combat within 24 hours.  A very large reason that the US has that capability is part do the the myriad of bases it has around the world to support its logistical tail.  In a everyone vs the US situation that logistical tail is gone. 

Take for instance taking the fight to lets say China.  Without the bases in Japan or South Korea the US would be limited to the base in Guam and a very very long logistical tail  across the Pacific.  While China on the other hand would have no Logistical tail at all "do to the fighting taking place over the skies of China and the South China sea.  That F-22 super invincibilty factor will be hard pressed to fight China with a range of 1800 miles when it cant deploy from Japan. "who its also at war with"

Now of those 11 Super Carriers the US has i believe 3 are always docked due to redeployment or maintaining issues or what not.  So that would leave 8 Scattered around the world.  Lets give the Pacific half that.  So 4 Super Carriers "along with their supporting fleets" to fight Asia.  Granted those 4 Carriers and their attending fleets would rain all kinds of hell on Asia, but it couldnt defeat them.  Normal attrition and combat losses would mean that flight operations couldnt continue indefinitely and with no way to invade directly and no friendly nations to support them you basically have a bloody stalemate "more bloody on the Chinese side of course".

That said  Obviously the US would never be invaded.  The US has such a stupid lead in Naval and Air supremacy that it would literally take the rest of the world decades to catch up, and thats without them under constant attack.

Though.  Put Japan and the UK on the US side and those three nations would legit conquer the world in a century or two.  

Whew.  Glad to get into this nationalistic dick waving.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 22, 2015)

Blue said:


> We don't need credibility or a badge
> 
> We have a military that could take on every other country in the world conventionally and win, easily
> 
> ...



Your naivity could be real cute, if it wasn't linked to your appalling world view.

It is extremely moot to even entertain the idea of how the almighty US would fair against the world with conventional weapons, cause obviously, it will never come to this. But just for fun, if it did happen, the world would likely fail to conquer the US, as the US would fail to conquer the world. Both would have to go into defensive mode and the US would end up an isolated island.

If the US decided to go full rogue, discard all diplomacy and just act as you propose they should, they would end up more isololated than even North Korea. And in order to break that isolation they would have to backtrack on their full-blown interventionalism or start conquering the world (see above).


EDIT: Also you seem to be ignoring the element of guerilla warfare, aka Terrorism. In an all out war against the world, Americans will be blown up left and right in their own homeland.


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## Sunuvmann (Mar 22, 2015)

Destroyer of Kittens said:


> As awesome as war-gaming the everyone vs the US would be I think it is important to remember that a very large portion of Americas war-fighting comes from its impressive global logistics.  It can deliver force anywhere in the world and sustain high intensity combat within 24 hours.  A very large reason that the US has that capability is part do the the myriad of bases it has around the world to support its logistical tail.  In a everyone vs the US situation that logistical tail is gone.
> 
> Take for instance taking the fight to lets say China.  Without the bases in Japan or South Korea the US would be limited to the base in Guam and a very very long logistical tail  across the Pacific.  While China on the other hand would have no Logistical tail at all "do to the fighting taking place over the skies of China and the South China sea.  That F-22 super invincibilty factor will be hard pressed to fight China with a range of 1800 miles when it cant deploy from Japan. "who its also at war with"
> 
> ...


If it was US vs the world, US strategy would probably be in three phases.

First off would be trying to evacuate troops from now vulnerable bases given allies turning against them and retreating them to positions that they can be supported by their naval supremacy.

This would mean probably campaigns in Germany and South Korea to evacuate the troops then to UK and Japan.

While the Royal Navy and JSDF are pretty strong, US could pretty easily blitz them and topple their governments in lieu of puppet ones.

They also might pull out of the middle east because our domestic oil production probably would be sufficient and as a foe, the middle east states aren't worth our time.

The next phase would probably be shoring up North America. So, air blitz and spec ops campaigns to quickly topple Canadian and Mexican governments and any countries surrounding the Panama canal.

Then, the protracted war would begin.

China & Russia would largely try to invade over the Bering strait while also trying to take Japan to heavy losses on both sides.

Fortress UK would have no trouble holding off Europe.

Its likely that they would attempt to try and take western Europe quickly to relieve pressure on the Pacific front. And given how Europe's forces have atrophied due to NATO, that would be a relatively easy task if done early on.

Africa and South America would largely be ignored because they'd be of limited strategic value and it would ultimately come down to fighting two fronts of China&India in the east and Russia in the west.

That would be a long war but since they are unlikely to be able to challenge our naval and air power, they'd eventually crumble.


All this of course assumes no nukes.


In short, because the rest of the world has been enjoying the Pax Americana, they'd have far more difficulty ramping up to fight us. It kinda comes down to the faster we can beat them and get vassal states on our side, the better our odds. If it gets drawn out so China gets parity in equipment and technology, then it'd probably end up a stalemate.


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## Destroyer of Kittens (Mar 22, 2015)

Son Goku.  In a no holds bar US vs the World terrorism would be the least of the US issues due to all the other challenges it would be facing.  If all else fails it could go just Jail all non US nationals in the US border to prevent it.  "This scenario implies US citizens are loyal to the cause, and the world citizens are loyal to their cause"

Simply put the longer the war goes on the more likely it is that the US will eventually lose.  If the US can knock out the Worlds war-fighting and war production capability and keep it down indeffinetlly within the first few years then the US will win.  The US wont be able to take and hold Japan or the UK indeffinetly,  Those nations populations are completely hostile and are well within range of enemy air power and IRBMs from elsewhere..  and would utterly stretch the Logistical capability the US would have.  Supplying troops across a ocean with no friendly nations is a bitch.

That said.  The us doesnt need to invade and occupy to win.  A huge huge advantage the US has is it is completely self sufficient while much of the rest of the world is not.  Japan and China completely rely on imports of Oil to maintain their war producing and the US could easily target Piplines and Tankers to isolate those nations while they would lack the means to return the favor.  Same thing with Europe.  The us could interdict oil tankers in the Mediteranian and disrupt oil flow to Europe from Russia with Long range B2 and B1 bombers that fire cruise missles from beyond range of any air defenses.  So, with the US bombing power plants Industrial centers Oil refineries and pipelines Rail networks and other targets the US could Isolate the more dangerous blocs of the world from the vital rescources they need while cripling their industrial war making capability.  These attacks would take years to repair and they have to do it with constant cruise missile and air attack.

That said.  Eventually attrition would where down the US air and Naval forces. It would take potentially decades but eventually the World could mount enough of a defense to be able to deny US its waters and airspace even contest the US in space.  The US starts taking more defensive positions since it can no longer strike with Impunity and the nations of the world finally start building the blue water naval capability to challenge the US.  Long story short since the rest of the world does out-produce the US it would eventually fight its way to South America where the US prescense is weakest and use that to base and invade up. to North America.  Granted by this point billions are dead and this is even a non nuclear war.

So.  tldr.  The US could potentially win by reducing the world to early 1900s tech level by isolating the world from one another with Superior air naval and space forces within the first few years.

The war drags on and the world can start to rebuild and mount defense of their waters and Airways after a couple decades of hardships.

The war continues to drag on and the World can finally start pushing the US out of the Atlantic and Pacific ocean..  This will take half a century to pull off.

The war continues to drag on and The world can project forces onto the Americas themselfs and begin the very very painful process of bringing freedom and universal health care to the Americas and fighting a very very brutal insurgency campaign....  That or genocide.  that works too I guess.  Though by this point the year is 2116.


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## Chelydra (Mar 22, 2015)

Not really no, you see the point is they actually have to manage to attack and destroy our military assets and our means to produce them.


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## Destroyer of Kittens (Mar 22, 2015)

And I agree.  Which is why I said it would take them 100 years before they would be able to get to us.  The world does out produce the us.  they could potentially catch up to the US militarily in peace time assuming they did a crash building of a naval and airforce within 20-30 years.  Though.  Since they are going to be constantly attacked and isolated from one another.  I added a additional 70 years that I pulled out of my ass.


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## Chelydra (Mar 22, 2015)

I thought the premise of this game was constant war, in which case the US would likely not allow any serious manufactoring facilities at all, they would be bombed any one that could make military grade equipment as they came online.

Basically the only way we could lose would be just to up and quit.


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## Destroyer of Kittens (Mar 22, 2015)

My point is eventually attrition would wear down US forces to where they could not simply destroy targets faster than they are rebuilt.  There are just too many targets of importance all over the world and with a hostile 7 billion people out to get us we could not destroy them all faster than they could be rebuilt.........  I think.......

The US could very well win.  in fact it may even be likely for the US to win.  It depends on the US ability to withstand attrition and maintain constant pressure against the world.  the moment the world can start creating no-go zones for US forces and start rebuilding their losses faster than we can destroy them then it would only be a matter of time.  Hence why it would take a century.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 22, 2015)

How the fuck did I end up in NF's Tom Clancy subsection. 

Nice fanfic writing, though I gotta assume that non-American armchair generals would paint a slightly different picture. (Me, I'm not into this kind of 'painting')


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## Chelydra (Mar 22, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> How the fuck did I end up in NF's Tom Clancy subsection.
> 
> Nice fanfic writing, though I gotta assume that non-American armchair generals would paint a slightly different picture. (Me, I'm not into this kind of 'painting')



Thing is American armchair generals have empirical evidence to back up the claims while the rest of the world only has propaganda.


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## Destroyer of Kittens (Mar 22, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> How the fuck did I end up in NF's Tom Clancy subsection.
> 
> Nice fanfic writing, though I gotta assume that non-American armchair generals would paint a slightly different picture. (Me, I'm not into this kind of 'painting')



Meh.  Played a game of civ and was motivated to play armchair general a bit.  That  said vice had a nifty article that kind of ask this same question.


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## Son of Goku (Mar 22, 2015)

Chelydra said:


> Thing is American armchair generals have empirical evidence to back up the claims while the rest of the world only has propaganda.



No, the thing is that no one has enough empirical evidence to predict the outcome of a war with this many (unknown) variables.



Destroyer of Kittens said:


> Meh.  Played a game of civ and was motivated to play armchair general a bit.  That  said vice had a nifty article that kind of ask this same question.



Interesting link, especially this part:



> *Are the world's combined forces enough to defeat those of the US?*
> 
> Yes, but only if the US is on the offensive or only if defeat does not equate to conquer or destroy, which it generally does not. The world could, for example, certainly contain the US as the US did the Soviet Union.



He's basically reiterating what I said earlier.


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## Destroyer of Kittens (Mar 22, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> No, the thing is that no one has enough empirical evidence to predict the outcome of a war with this many (unknown) variables.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well.  Yeah.  If the US was invading mainland Europe or China with the entire world at war with it it would not end well for the US.  And yeah.  The world could contain the US..........  Eventually.  Then again the US could do that to the important blocks of the world.  Europe?  China?  completely vunerable to Oil interdiction.

That three Gorges Dam in China?  yeah its gone. along with a couple hundred million Chinese.

The Aswan Dam?  Gone.  Along with a signifigant portion of Egypts population.  

US sinks and attacks all sea traffic thats not US flagged and food importers of the world that cant feed themselfs will starve to death.  The us could kill hundreds of millions or even billions in the opening year of conflict just by people going hungry because the food is not going where it needs to go.  Total war is a bitch like that.  

Then again if the US destroyed those dams Or starved Africa and large parts of Asia the US would eat a few hundred nukes for its efforts..  Good thing those are disabled.

Anyway back on topic.

how bout that Netanyahu guy?  seems like he effectively killed the peace process in one fell swoop with the whole no Palestinian State ever thing he has going.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 23, 2015)

*President Obama says he now assumes Benjamin Netanyahu does not support a Palestinian*



> President Barack Obama says said he was now operating under the assumption that Benjamin Netanyahu does not support the creation of a Palestinian state - despite the Israeli leader?s attempt after last weeks? election to recast hi position.
> 
> In an interview with The Huffington Post, Mr Obama took issue with Netanyahu?s assertion that a Palestinian state would not be established while he?s prime minister.
> 
> ...



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/usisrael-relations-president-obama-says-he-now-assumes-benjamin-netanyahu-does-not-support-a-palestinian-state-10126040.html?cmpid=facebook-post


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## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 23, 2015)

*Bibi apologizes for his Arab-isreali comments made at election*

Bibi apologizing... How the tables have turned. 





> Netanyahu Apologizes to Israeli Arabs for Election Eve Comments
> by Matt Wilstein | 2:07 pm, March 23rd, 2015 VIDEO
> 52
> 
> ...


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## Zaru (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm. Like. Totally. Sorry. Guys. And. It. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. The. Election. Being. Over. In. My. Favor


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## Hunted by sister (Mar 23, 2015)

The milk was spilled already, this apology is an empty attempt to shut up those who called him out on his prejudice. He already got what he wanted, so might as well waste some air for PR.

//HbS


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## Hand Banana (Mar 23, 2015)




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## Alwaysmind (Mar 23, 2015)

A bit late there Bibi.

Bibi is trying to stall an American reassessment of it's Israel policies. 
The damaged has been done. His over confidence and defiance have cost his credibility. 
They guy receives aid from another country and has the audacity to say, "sorry, that's not enough, we need more."

His credibility has shrunk and even if a PM has the majority, that does not mean that the citizens will take him seriously.


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## Mansali (Mar 23, 2015)

While Bill Maher says this....



> Politicians, Jewish advocacy groups, and Rabbis have been highly critical of methods used by Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu to win reelection last week, particularly his short-lived public renunciation of a two-state solution to the Palestinian crisis and his 11th-hour bid to bolster his supporters by warning that ?Arab voters are coming in droves to the ballot boxes.? President Barack Obama said the remarks were ?contrary to what is the best of Israel?s traditions,? the New York Times editorial board called them ?desperate, and craven,? and Rabbi Rick Jacobs, president of the Union for Reform Judaism, noted the tactics were a ?naked appeal to his hard-right bases? fears rather than their hopes.? Several others, including Reform Rabbi Zinkow, said the prime minister?s comments ?sound racist.?
> But talk show host and self-professed liberal Bill Maher attempted to stifle the growing criticism of Netanyahu on Saturday night. Speaking to a panel that included a GOP strategist and a former Republican lawmaker, Maher challenged claims that the prime minister?s remarks were racist by, confusingly, pointing to America?s own history of using racist political tactics.
> ?I guess that is racist, in the strictest sense ? he?s bringing race into the equation,? Maher said of Netanyahu?s remarks. ?But, first of all, like Reagan didn?t win races with racism? Or Nixon? Or Bush? Like they didn?t play the race card? Reagan opened his campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi, remember that? Remember Willie Horton??
> Maher?s second rant on the subject took an even more bizarre turn, with the host trying to add ?a little perspective? by outlining a hypothetical scenario in which America is under siege from ?black nations.? He also drew comparisons between Netanyahu?s election and America?s internment of Japanese people during World War II.
> ...


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## Son of Goku (Mar 23, 2015)

Yeah, Maher has always been a pathetic Bibi fanboy and Israel apologist. In that regard he sorta is the Anti-Stewart.


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## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 24, 2015)

*WH Chief of Staff: Israel's 50 year occupation must end*

He just said the O-word. 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...i-occupation-palestinian-territories-must-end



> The White House issued a passionate call for eventual Palestinian statehood on Monday as it stepped up criticism of the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, for appearing to question a two-state solution to Middle East peace.
> 
> “An occupation that has lasted for almost 50 years must end,” Barack Obama’s chief of staff, Denis McDonough, told a conference of liberal activists in Washington. “Israel cannot maintain military control of another people indefinitely,” he added.
> 
> ...


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## Mider T (Mar 24, 2015)

In b4 the flame war.


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## KidTony (Mar 24, 2015)

It's hilarious how a substantial policy change (if it does happen which it probably won't) can come about just because someone pissed somebody else off, rather than because you know, it was the right thing to do.


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## NeoTerraKnight (Mar 24, 2015)

Obama is pretty much saying that US is done being Israel's bitch. It took the Jewish Americans to not give a f*ck about Bibi and the President living his last term as President. Not to mention use of racist rhetoric that might have pressed his button.

Bibi took very long with his apology on those comments. That's when you know Bibi find out he didn't thank this through. lol


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## Alwaysmind (Mar 25, 2015)

> “A ‘one-state solution’ would effectively end Israel’s nature as a Jewish and democratic state,” he added. “Unilateral annexation of the West Bank territories would be both wrong and illegal. The United States would never support it, and it’s *unlikely Israel’s other friends would either*. It would only contribute to Israel’s isolation.”



Well maybe not Harper, he has been trying really hard to take the place of being Israel #1 best friend.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Mar 25, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> A bit late there Bibi.
> 
> Bibi is trying to stall an American reassessment of it's Israel policies.
> The damaged has been done. His over confidence and defiance have cost his credibility.
> ...



I still can't believe you people donate your taxpayer money to Israel.


*Spoiler*: __


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## KidTony (Mar 25, 2015)

AP Analysis: Is Israel Democratic? Not So Clear



> The displeasure felt in some quarters over his win has placed front and center the world community's unwritten obligation to accept the results of a truly democratic vote. It is a basic tenet of the modern order which has survived the occasional awkward election result ? as well as recent decades' emergence of some less-than-pristine democracies around the globe.
> 
> For Israel, the argument is especially piquant, because its claim to be the only true democracy in the Middle East has been key to its branding and its vitally important claim on U.S. military, diplomatic and financial support. Israel's elections, from campaign rules to vote counts, are indeed not suspect.
> 
> ...


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## Son of Goku (Mar 25, 2015)

KidTony said:


> It's hilarious how a substantial policy change (if it does happen which it probably won't) can come about just because someone pissed somebody else off, rather than because you know, it was the right thing to do.



It may well be that they care about the bringing of peace and stability and go down in history as the ones that ended a neverending conflict. *But*, while it's pleasing to see the Obama administration, ever so lightly, stomping its foot on the issue of Israel's decades long illegal occupation, one fact remains: Talk is cheap. Especially with no elections left to lose.


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