# Healthy Itachi vs Gai



## JuicyG (Sep 22, 2014)

Distance: 40 meters
Location: CE
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Full
Restriction: 8th Gate, Izanami


Who Wins & Why ?


----------



## SharinganKisame (Sep 22, 2014)

With full knowledge gai won't be hit by any ms techniques and he obviously won't allow itachi to summon susanoo.
Even if itachi uses susanoo there's no totsuka blitz happening and that featless yata mirror won't do anything against gai's hirudora. Gai is faster and stronger than Itachi, he won't lose against him with full knowledge.


----------



## Jad (Sep 22, 2014)

Well, I've always been under the opinion that Hidora's massive and omnidirectional blast will lift Sasuno off it's bottom and destroy the legless bottom portion. Since i know Itachi's version has no legs. Thay way Itachi gets hit. I've also been an advocate for 7th Gate release to remove Ameterasu off the body. That said, I know my points aren't well recieved on the topic here, so, what else I got to say? If this was Sick Itachi I'd also say he may outlast Itachi in Gates. In fact I don't see what would be wrong with saying that.


----------



## Arles Celes (Sep 22, 2014)

Depends whether Guy can dodge Amaterasu with the 7th Gate or if Itachi can hit him with it before Guy activates Gates. Being fast does not automatically mean that one can dodge Amaterasu as it took Ei who was hailed as the fastest man in the world(till Naruto surpassed him) to boost his speed to the max in order to dodge it.

As for Susanoo VS 7th Gate it all comes down to who runs out of gas faster. Itachi's chakra reserves aren't too high but Guy cannot keep his 7th Gate activated for long as it messes his body as we saw after his fight with Kisame.

Yata mirror also continues being an enigma. Hype wise it is invincible but feats wise it offers no greater protection than what stage 2 Susanoo could give even without it. I doubt exploding tags can damage even the lowest version of Susanoo...

Healthy Itachi chakra levels are a mystery too as he could use MS like 3-4 times during his battle with Sasuke before being exhausted. If he were healthy how much would that exactly increase his chakra levels? By 20%? 50%? They would be twice as high?

We also do not know how much did Guy damage Madara with Hirudora as we saw the former chilling as if nothing happened. So either:
1. Susanoo wasn't destroyed and it just pushed it and Madara back and the Uchiha dismissed his jutsu himself.
2. Susanoo was destroyed but Madara was unhurt as his protection absorbed most/all of Guy's attack.
3. Susanoo received moderate damage but not enough to be destroyed.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 22, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Depends whether Guy can dodge Amaterasu with the 7th Gate or if Itachi can hit him with it before Guy activates Gates. Being fast does not automatically mean that one can dodge Amaterasu as it took Ei who was hailed as the fastest man in the world(till Naruto surpassed him) to boost his speed to the max in order to dodge it.



Ei was never the fastest man alive. It was Gai (In the eight). But yeah, this is difficult.



> As for Susanoo VS 7th Gate it all comes down to who runs out of gas faster. Itachi's chakra reserves aren't too high but Guy cannot keep his 7th Gate activated for long as it messes his body as we saw after his fight with Kisame.



This is outdated. Gai used his gates several times during the war. Also used the 7th gate and _Hirudora_, and after that he used the eight gate and used more taxing attacks than _Hirudora_, 6 times on panel and who knows how many times off panel. Just to be able still to use _Night Gai_.

Current Gai in the 7th gate should be more than enough to outlast _Susano'o_ Itachi. 

*I think is a hard fight, though. Gai needs to be very aware of Itachi to be able to avoid _Amaterasu_ unless he keeps moving and making Itachi unable to pinpoint him effectively. Or force him to use _Susano'o_.

But Itachi has his own shots with clones and his trickery. Gai would need to be in constant movement in order to keep Itachi pressured, because the moment he stops, it's an opportunity for him to use _Kishimoto no Jutsu_.


----------



## kingcools (Sep 22, 2014)

amaterasu will never hit anyone as you can go underground to avoid it.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 22, 2014)

Eh in a battle between these guys it's gonna come down to who will be able to get in the last hit and to do that they will have to outlast their enemy. Obviously gai is more built to do that even with gates eating away at him. He has shown he can keep up a string of battles even while using gates and even in base can tango with obito CQC with weapons.

Itachi only choice is to try and aim and nail amaterasu on guy but we have seen gai's burst speed. Not to mention trying to burn with amaterasu while keeping up susanoo is a shitty predicament for itachi.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 22, 2014)

Itachi tanks everything Gai throws @ him and ends him with Amaterasu or Totsuka or lolgenjutsu.

Gai without 8th gate isn't up there. With the 8th gate, he is far above though.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 23, 2014)

Start distance is 40m and Itachi is healthy. The only way I see him winning here is if he can tag Gai in the face with Amaterasu before he enters gates. If he tags him anywhere else the aura erection of the gates will blow the flames off his clothing, and if he doesn't attempt it immediately he won't hit Gai with Amaterasu or any other attack from that point. 

I'm inclined to agree with Jad from that point forward, I believe AT destroyed Madara's V3 Susano and considering Yata Mirror's relatively weak defensive feats and the fact Itachi's Susano was destroyed by Kirin- I don't see Itachi surving AT. That being said, it's unlikely he can animate his full powered Susano by the time Gai fires Afternoon Tiger at him, he can enter the 6-7th gate within a matter of 3-5 seconds and he can manifest Afternoon Tiger even quicker (the dude attempted it on Judara from point-blank range). 

In other words, Gai wins 9/10 times barring Amaterasu head-shot at immediate start battle, and even that technique requires arguably 2-3 seconds to even initiate. With Gai's base speed (MS Obito level) I firmly believe even if it directed at his head he can at the very least move his head to the side before being hit. 

Grimmjow, 7th Gated Gai appeared in front of Judara with less reaction than was issued against SM Edo Minato attempting the same feat. In base, he avoided warping by Rinnegan Obito. He is clearly "up there" with the likes of a single MS user.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Start distance is 40m and Itachi is healthy. The only way I see him winning here is if he can tag Gai in the face with Amaterasu before he enters gates. If he tags him anywhere else the aura erection of the gates will blow the flames off his clothing, and if he doesn't attempt it immediately he won't hit Gai with Amaterasu or any other attack from that point.
> 
> I'm inclined to agree with Jad from that point forward, I believe AT destroyed Madara's V3 Susano and considering Yata Mirror's relatively weak defensive feats and the fact Itachi's Susano was destroyed by Kirin- I don't see Itachi surving AT. That being said, it's unlikely he can animate his full powered Susano by the time Gai fires Afternoon Tiger at him, he can enter the 6-7th gate within a matter of 3-5 seconds and he can manifest Afternoon Tiger even quicker (the dude attempted it on Judara from point-blank range).
> 
> ...



Yata stopped Sasuke's sword.

The same sword that went through JJ Madara like butter.


----------



## ARGUS (Sep 23, 2014)

Guy wins this 

 - Once he goes to the 7th gate, his speed would be too fast for itachis sharingan precog, and would also be enable him to evade all of his attacks such as amaterasu, YM etc. 

 - Yes amaterasu is getting evaded by the guy who protected kakashi from the TSB, and pressured  JJ Madara

 - With full knowledge, Guy can use Hirudora which canonically destroyed Madaras V3 susanoo, and now with full knowledge he can use it towards the back of the susanoo which is its weak spot, thus enabling him to bypasss all of the  susanoos bar possibly V4, granted if itachi activates it before he gets hit 

 - even V4 susanoo is getting heavily damaged from Hirudora, as guy can then just use hirudora again, or asakujaku to bypass it,and kill itachi off,  not to mention that using V4 is putting a huge toll on itachi 

 - Genjutsu is not happening to guy, since he has the speed to evade itachis LoS and his fighting style also enables him to evade eye contact


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Guy wins this
> 
> - Once he goes to the 7th gate, his speed would be too fast for itachis sharingan precog


Proof ? 



> - Yes amaterasu is getting evaded by the guy who protected kakashi from the TSB, and pressured  JJ Madara



Proof ? 

Are you saying that TSB is faster than Amaterasu ?


----------



## Mercurial (Sep 23, 2014)

Gai is really too much for Itachi with the 7th Gate.


----------



## Edo Madara (Dec 7, 2014)

Gai evading genjutsu enton, totsuka, and proceed to destroy itachi and susano


----------



## Ghost (Dec 7, 2014)

Nice necro.

Itachi wins.

Guy is not even close to being so fast Itachi would have trouble reacting to him/keeping up. 

If Guy avoids eye contact he is going to get Amaterasu GGd if not he gets Genjutsu GGd.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

7 gated gai still has no defence for Amaterasu 

As for busting V3 it did no doubt 

However itachi V4 has a layer of chakra armor plus a shield 

I like this match up despite the repetition 

Itachi should win this


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> 7 gated gai still has no defence for Amaterasu
> 
> As for busting V3 it did no doubt
> 
> ...



Thats if he can caught him with Amaterasu. In 7 gates mode, Gai is very fast. 

Overall, i think its 50/50 chance for both.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

Gai is very fast however his blitz is linear 
He is fast but doesn't have reactions like raikage nor does he have the sharingan 

Itachi will light up where he will appear next since Gai moves in a straight line more or less 

He is no doubt fast but sharingan reads and burns him up


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Gai is very fast however his blitz is linear
> He is fast but doesn't have reactions like raikage nor does he have the sharingan
> 
> Itachi will light up where he will appear next since Gai moves in a straight line more or less
> ...



In 7 gates Mode, he did way better against Juubidara than Edo Minato with Sage Mode, you know... And Gai does not move straight forward. Look his fight with Juubidara when he was in a 8 gates Mode. Did he move linear?


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

He did not 
That however doesn't change how he fought in 7 gate which was exceedingly linear


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> He did not
> That however doesn't change how he fought in 7 gate which was exceedingly linear



Go re-read Manga. Gai did way better. 

And the fact he wasnt fighting linear in his fight with Madara proves he can fight without linear attacks.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Thats if he can caught him with Amaterasu. In 7 gates mode, Gai is very fast.
> 
> Overall, i think its 50/50 chance for both.



The thing is who can hold out more healthy itachi in full armoured sussano or 7gate gai?...I think itachi takes this he can hold out full sussano for 5-10 min but gai if he uses hirudara gets hurt very badly..and its nt getting through full armoured sussano..though if itachi wastes chakra on amaterasu  he goes down....im not sure really who holds out longer..


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> The thing is who can hold out more healthy itachi in full armoured sussano or 7gate gai?...I think itachi takes this he can hold out full sussano for 5-10 min but gai if he uses hirudara gets hurt very badly..and its nt getting through full armoured sussano..though if itachi wastes chakra on amaterasu  he goes down....im not sure really who holds out longer..



Susanoo also takes a lot from Itachi, by the way.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2014)

Saikyou said:


> Guy is not even close to being so fast Itachi would have trouble reacting to him/keeping up.



Do tell what brought you to that conclusion. Itachi's speed feats have been against people who aren't even close to Sage Mode Minato, whom Gai proved to be generally faster than.


----------



## Ghost (Dec 7, 2014)

lolkishi. Implying the last fights in the series weren't full of inconsistencies. 

If Guy was anywhere near that speed he would've captured Kisame in a second.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 7, 2014)

Gai's speed with 7 Gates is too much for Itachi. Even if he's not completely speedblitzed, he would never be able to catch Gai with Amaterasu or genjutsu/Tsukuyomi, not to mention Totsuka sword. Gai's taijutsu corners him in Susanoo and multiple Hiru Tora are definitely stomping it. And if a worn out Gai (that has already used 7th Gate + Hiru Tora) can enter the 8th Gate and use multiple Sekizo and the Night Guy, all far far far far far more taxing than Hiru Tora, he can definitely stomp Itachi's Susanoo with it (he stomped and destroyed Madara's V3 with a single one, for fuck's sake. If one was to believe to Yata's powers, Gai can just circle blitz Susanoo and hit and destroy it from behind.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2014)

Saikyou said:


> lolkishi. Implying the last fights in the series weren't full of inconsistencies.
> 
> If Guy was anywhere near that speed he would've captured Kisame in a second.



Gai's most important fight doesn't count...because you say so? Nice try.

Gai didn't even attempt to capture Kisame in the Seventh Gate anyway, so it isn't like he couldn't have. Actually, Kisame lost approximately 30 seconds after Gai used it.


----------



## RBL (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Gai is very fast however *his blitz is linear*
> He is fast but doesn't have reactions like raikage nor does he have the sharingan
> 
> Itachi will light up where he will appear next since Gai moves in a straight line more or less
> ...



wut bro.

raikage's blitz is linear, Gai is more agile.

you are just acting like a gai hater now bro.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 7, 2014)

Can go either way

If itachi sets up exploding bushins and crow traps he may be able to win.

If he attempts to straight up fight fai, he may lose as it's a possibility at will bust susano

Can go either way i slightly lean toward itachi


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Go re-read Manga. Gai did way better.
> 
> And the fact he wasnt fighting linear in his fight with Madara proves he can fight without linear attacks.



Being able to physically surprise madara does not mean itachi can't track him
Itachi may not he physically able to move but all he needs to do is anticipate Gai attack 

Sasuke a much less experience ninja was able to do the same to raikage

People also need to remember that Gai reaction don't increase his speed does 

Kishi already made a point to stress how going full speed without the reactions to anticipate could be bad 

He wouldn't see itachi amaterasu coming


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 7, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Gai's speed with 7 Gates is too much for Itachi. Even if he's not completely speedblitzed, he would never be able to catch Gai with Amaterasu or genjutsu/Tsukuyomi, not to mention Totsuka sword. Gai's taijutsu corners him in Susanoo and multiple Hiru Tora are definitely stomping it. And if a worn out Gai (that has already used 7th Gate + Hiru Tora) can enter the 8th Gate and use multiple Sekizo and the Night Guy, all far far far far far more taxing than Hiru Tora, he can definitely stomp Itachi's Susanoo with it (he stomped and destroyed Madara's V3 with a single one, for fuck's sake. If one was to believe to Yata's powers, Gai can just circle blitz Susanoo and hit and destroy it from behind.



We are talking about itachis complete armoured v4 sussano with the cloak.....whats ur basis that at will stomp it...


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

Yata won't help defend against taijutsu
Don't know why that's even being brought up 
All It would be is another chakra layer 

Which will make the front susanoo have 2 more layers than madara did 

Howeve Gai can use hirudora more than once 

Multiple times actually 

This doesn't make him immune to genjutsu or Amaterasu though


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Being able to physically surprise madara does not mean itachi can't track him
> Itachi may not he physically able to move but all he needs to do is anticipate Gai attack
> 
> Sasuke a much less experience ninja was able to do the same to raikage
> ...



I am not nesseserily think Guy wins. It can go aither way. But Guy's speed will be a problem. He how was it a surprise? Anyway, Guy did way better than Minato.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Yata won't help defend against taijutsu
> Don't know why that's even being brought up
> All It would be is another chakra layer
> 
> ...



Actually the whole sussano will have 2 more layers so whats ur point v1 is the same as v2 as is v4 more layers...wheres the mentality of guy spamming hirodara coming from exactly he used it one time and was a zombie from the exertion...at every turn he has used it one time as a finisher..


----------



## Gibbs (Dec 7, 2014)

Gai ROFLSTOMPS Itachi. Only version of Itachi that stands a chance is independent thought Edo Itachi.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

@sabre of course gai can spam hirudora 
if he could use hirudora then use 8 gate and spam 8 gate attacks 

no reason to believe he cant use hirudora more than once. not saying he throws them like casual punches but he most certainly can shoot more than one. 

am not saying he wins, his speed will be an issue but not impossible to track. also note busting V3 doesnt remotely equate to busting a stronger susuanoo with more layers of chakra. 

that would be like saying becuase jinton destroyed 25 V3 susanoo that it can destroy PS


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2014)

7th gate shunshin to the back of V4 susanoo followed by ATx2.  What can itachi do?


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 7, 2014)

Tskuyomi him 
before any gates happen 

what can gai do ? 
Not look at his face ? 

Finger genjutsu. We have already seen itachi trap a person in genjutsu while they are already in 1 

Gai is knocked out for a split second itachi uses sharingan a genjutsu or tskuyomi and trolls


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Tskuyomi him
> before any gates happen
> 
> what can gai do ?
> ...



the strongest person finger genjutsu has worked on is beginning part 2 base naruto, and he didn't have knowledge on it and could even resist it.  Itachi couldn't even get immortals arc naruto into a genjutsu which is why he was forced to use his koto crow to do it.  

Gai is incomparably above that, and canonically looks at his opponent's toes, not fingers.  Finger genjutsu is a non-factor.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> 7th gate shunshin to the back of V4 susanoo followed by ATx2.  What can itachi do?



Die  

Actually, he's gunna do nothing. He's gunna die at 300 km/h, screaming "Jesus Christ! My legs!"


----------



## Jυstin (Dec 7, 2014)

Normal limitations of Susano'o's general defenses don't apply because Itachi has Yata's Mirror.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 7, 2014)

Gai can just circle blitz Susanoo with 7th Gate speed (the one that pressured Juudara) and hit and destroy it from behind with Hiru Tora. One doesn't suffice? Another comes quickly after.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 7, 2014)

Itachi outlasts with Susano'o. He can also obscure visual and break away with a clone feint if he needs to buy more time or try to counterattack, but I don't think that would be necessary.


----------



## Edo Madara (Dec 7, 2014)

Kishi never give limit to these legendary weapons made itachi ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) can keep gloating about how it can blocked anything and beat anything.


----------



## Gibbs (Dec 7, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Normal limitations of Susano'o's general defenses don't apply because Itachi has Yata's Mirror.



It's not omni-directional though.


----------



## Deadway (Dec 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi outlasts with Susano'o. He can also obscure visual and break away with a clone feint if he needs to buy more time or try to counterattack, but I don't think that would be necessary.





Nikushimi said:


> Itachi outlasts with Susano'o.






Nikushimi said:


> Itachi outlasts with Susano'o.





Itachi isn't outlasting shit. Gai speed blitzed and forced back Juubi Jin Madara ,the guy who managed to defeat Minato in mid teleport, Kakashi in mid Kamui warp and Gaara in less than a second without moving. Gai fills itachi's asshole up hundred times over before he realizes what happened.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 7, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> It's not omni-directional though.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> 7th gate shunshin to the back of V4 susanoo followed *by ATx2*.  What can itachi do?



When has he even used AT twice? 
(like one right after the other?)

****
IMO 7th Gate Gai is slightly above Kisame's level (without Samihada). Itachi's is slightly above that.
Though it depends on how fast itachi would use his Susanoo because after 1 AT, Gai shouldn't be able to move.


----------



## Deadway (Dec 7, 2014)

Hussain said:


> IMO 7th Gate Gai is slightly above Kisame's level (without Samihada). Itachi's is slightly above that.
> Though it depends on how fast itachi would use his Susanoo because after 1 AT, Gai shouldn't be able to move.



      

Wow I think I'm going to log off NF and never return. Quite possibly the single most retarded thing I've ever read.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 7, 2014)

Deadway said:


> Wow I think I'm going to log off NF and never return. Quite possibly the single most retarded thing I've ever read.



yeah, if you dont have an argument, fuck off. ^_^


----------



## Ersa (Dec 7, 2014)

Sick, dying Itachi managed several minutes of Susanoo after being stabbed, using clones/Katon/genjutsu and two uses of Amaterasu and one use of Tsukiyomi that backfired on him. Healthy Itachi will be more then capable of camping Susanoo for a little bit and we saw the condition Gai was in after using Afternoon Tiger once, granted his tolerance for Gates increased in the War Arc but not to the point where he can be spamming out AT and not feeling anything. And even taking that into account, AT didn't completely wreck Kisame, Gai needed a full powered Gated punch to truly put him down. Forgive me for saying so but a complete Susanoo with a legendary mirror will stomach it much easier.

The notion of a *healthy *Itachi outlasting a Gated Gai isn't stupid at all. Gates is just as taxing (if not more) then Mangekyo Sharingan.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2014)

Hussain said:


> When has he even used AT twice?
> (like one right after the other?)
> 
> ****
> ...



nope, he's never used AT twice, but I don't see what's stopping him from doing so.  We've seen how much he was able to do in the 8th gate before his stamina pooped out, and when he's relatively fresh he used AT without showing any signs of exhaustion.  We know that for him, AT requires hardly any prep due to how fast he pulled it out against juubi jin madara.

So from what I see the evidence supports him being able to do consecutive ATs if the situation calls for it as he shows no signs of exhaustion if he uses it while fresh and they require hardly any prep on his part.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> The notion of a *healthy *Itachi outlasting a Gated Gai isn't stupid at all. Gates is just as taxing (if not more) then Mangekyo Sharingan.



Gates and Susano'o (used by the MS) require the same amount of stamina as far as I'm concerned, but Itachi can't step to Gai when it comes to physical body stamina. I believe it was 5 vs. 2.5, if the Databook was correct.

So no, it is stupid. The notion of _Itachi_ outlasting _Gai_ with the notoriously draining Mangekyou is stupid. If you notice, his sickly feats against Sasuke left him in atrocious condition, which Zetsu noted so kindly for us. It was also noted by Kishimoto when he pictured Itachi kneeling on the floor vomiting blood. He also died, so there's that.

While healthy he'd fair better, but I still see no reason that he's going to come out victorious in a battle of attrition. Hell, Gai was able to hold the Eighth Gate, which is two or three tiers above the Seventh, for five to ten minutes, which is likely what Itachi could hold Susano'o for (scaling off of Sasuke against Danzo).

Itachi's victory here depends on his brain and if he's capable of tricking Gai. In a straight forward brawl, Gai would dominate any Uchiha that can't form a Biju Bomb-tanking Susano'o. Speed & strength that intense is more difficult to deal with than people think. Hirodura creates an opening for Asa Kujaku or another Hirodura at Susano'o's unguarded bottom, and raw gated speed is a great defense against the Mangekyou.


----------



## Jad (Dec 7, 2014)

Hussain said:


> yeah, if you dont have an argument, fuck off. ^_^



I guess Minato can only use Hirashin once or twice since that's all his shown in the manga ^_^ Hussain Logic ^_^



Ersatz said:


> Sick, dying Itachi managed several minutes of Susanoo after being stabbed, using clones/Katon/genjutsu and two uses of Amaterasu and one use of Tsukiyomi that backfired on him. Healthy Itachi will be more then capable of camping Susanoo for a little bit and we saw the condition Gai was in after using Afternoon Tiger once, granted his tolerance for Gates increased in the War Arc but not to the point where he can be spamming out AT and not feeling anything. And even taking that into account, AT didn't completely wreck Kisame, Gai needed a full powered Gated punch to truly put him down. Forgive me for saying so but a complete Susanoo with a legendary mirror will stomach it much easier.
> 
> The notion of a *healthy *Itachi outlasting a Gated Gai isn't stupid at all. Gates is just as taxing (if not more) then Mangekyo Sharingan.



Gai can use the 8th Gate while being deteriorated to a crispy level and still fight. 7th Gate doesn't even come close to that level of strain to the body. At that point, it comes down to how much Chakara Gai has to hold the 7th Gate rather how much his body can handle (which is a lot). His 8th Gate performance should shut down a lot of peoples arguments on how long Gai can last in Gated form.

Full powered 7th Gate punch is NOT what Gai needed to put Kisame down after Afternoon Tiger. That is illogical, because that would send Kisame to the bed of the ocean. Like how a 6th Gated punch after Morning Peacock did to Kisame on their second encountered, from floating in the air.

Also, are people forgetting this was Gai before he fought Juubidara and spammed Evening Elephants, on top of having before used Afternoon Tiger, and than in the end use YaGai?


----------



## Rocky (Dec 7, 2014)

Indeed. ^

Asa Kujaku ending Shouten Kisame's life all but proves that Hirodura didn't smack into Kisame at full power.

I suppose one could argue that Shouten Kisame is less durable, but he sure didn't seem any physically weaker when he was dominating Gai with one hand.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Dec 7, 2014)

Gai wins no contest. Itachi isn't hitting him with amatarasu Gai is to fast. He will wear Itachi out by making Itachi try to snipe him with Amatarasu and or camp in susanoo. Either way Gai outlasts him. Not to mention Gai is one of the worlds only sharingan specialist fighters.

Itachi's genjutsu won't work on him since he doesn't need to look at itachi's eyes to fight him.

Oh and FYI "Healthy Itachi" doesn't exist lol Living Itachi in the manga would be totally destroyed by gai. And so would the imaginary fabled "Healthy Itachi"


----------



## Jad (Dec 8, 2014)

I feel like when people debate Gai, they have him start straight after a hard training session, like his going to collapse after one Gate use. Yet "Healthy" Itachi is allowed all his Edo Stamina feats and getting a good nights rest.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 8, 2014)

This slow Interent will kill me! -_______-



ueharakk said:


> nope, he's never used AT twice, but I don't see what's stopping him from doing so.  We've seen how much he was able to do in the 8th gate before his stamina pooped out, and when he's relatively fresh he used AT without showing any signs of exhaustion.  We know that for him, AT requires hardly any prep due to how fast he pulled it out against juubi jin madara.
> 
> So from what I see the evidence supports him being able to do consecutive ATs if the situation calls for it as he shows no signs of exhaustion if he uses it while fresh and they require hardly any prep on his part.



- The thing is, the 8th Gate increases his power TENS of times. On the other hand, the 7th Gate does not offer him the same increase in power, and all of the 3 times he used AT, he was shown to be extremely weak, and unable to move for a good amount of time. I will probably not be able to provied any links because the connection I have currently is at its worst.

Example 1: When he used it against Kisame:
After that he was in the floor unable to move, even a slight touch from the Kid made him scream of the pain, and that lasted till before the war start, and Sakura was healing him. 

Example 2: When he used it against Edo Madara:
He directly was shown to be in a very sorry state, and that continued as well until Kurama healed him.

Example 3: when he used it against JJ Madara:
he fell to the ground right away unable to move, and Lee saved his life from Madara after that.

So, 3 out of 3 times, he was shown to be in a sorry state, and unable to move or do anything. So, I do not see how we can assume that he will do that all of sudden. It's just like how the Kid can use several FRS in his Sage Mode (that he got from Hago), but that does not mean his Toad Sage Mode was able to offer him the same thing. It's just 2 different level of increasing in power and abilities. That's how I see it at least.





Jad said:


> I guess Minato can only use Hirashin once or twice since that's all his shown in the manga ^_^ Hussain Logic ^_^



FTG does not have a side effect like the gates. He used it twice very fast when he outpaced 8th Gate Gai. He used it 50 times when he killed the fodders in 1 second. And 1000 times when he killed the fodders in the front lines. U_U


----------



## Trojan (Dec 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Indeed. ^
> 
> Asa Kujaku ending Shouten Kisame's life all but proves that Hirodura didn't smack into Kisame at full power.
> 
> I suppose one could argue that Shouten Kisame is less durable, but he sure didn't seem any physically weaker when he was dominating Gai with one hand.



That was not even 30% of Kisame's power. 
The fresh clone one is 30% of his power, and then he used clones, so he divided that low power to 4. 
So that Kisame Gai needed 6 Gates to defeat was like 7.5% of his full power.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 8, 2014)

Gai in chapter 507 used AT
this was Gai

in chapter 512:
this was Gai
this was Gai

chapter 515:
this was Gai

He's still suffering. Granted, I don't know the time in between those chapters, but that's irrelevant because this
is not a shape where someone can continue to fight, and that's only 1 AT. 

The second time:
chapter 608:
this was Gai

and look how he looks like in chapter 609:
this was Gai

chapter 610:
this was Gai
this was Gai
and here Kurama stated that he will restore him
this was Gai

the 3rd time:
he used it here
this was Gai

and then
this was Gai
this was Gai

call me crazy, but he does not look like someone who can fight in that condition to me. U_U


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 8, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - The thing is, the 8th Gate increases his power TENS of times. On the other hand, the 7th Gate does not offer him the same increase in power, and all of the 3 times he used AT, he was shown to be extremely weak, and unable to move for a good amount of time. I will probably not be able to provied any links because the connection I have currently is at its worst.


I know the 8th gate increases his power much more than the 7th gate, it doesn't however increase his STAMINA.  Opening higher level gates takes a greater toll on the user's body, if Gai can open the 8th gate for X amount of time and fire off Y amount of jutsu while in the 8th gate, then he can hold a lower gate much longer and fire off more jutsu while in the lower gate.

He's only shown to be extremely weak long after using AT, as in after the battle unless he's already in an exhausted, bloody state prior to firing it (vs edo madara), or if he gets hit by his own explosion (vs Juubidara).



Hussain said:


> Example 1: When he used it against Kisame:
> After that he was in the floor unable to move, even a slight touch from the Kid made him scream of the pain, and that lasted till before the war start, and Sakura was healing him.


Yeah, that was long after the battle and after he reverted to base.  I don't doubt Gai will be in tons of pain after his fight with Itachi, however the affects only comes after he shuts off all the gates and his body actually starts to naturally deal with the damage it took.



Hussain said:


> Example 2: When he used it against Edo Madara:
> He directly was shown to be in a very sorry state, and that continued as well until Kurama healed him.


Look at the state he was in before he fired it: exhausted to the point he could barely move, and profusely bleeding.  That has nothing to do with a fresh GAi using it, which is exactly why we see he shows zero signs of fatigue when he used it against kisame.



Hussain said:


> Example 3: when he used it against JJ Madara:
> he fell to the ground right away unable to move, and Lee saved his life from Madara after that.


Obviously he sustained that damage because he got hit by the backlash of his own explosion as a result of madara detonating it with his staff.  That's something that doesn't apply in the situation where he fires it on susanoo.



Hussain said:


> So, 3 out of 3 times, he was shown to be in a sorry state, and unable to move or do anything. So, I do not see how we can assume that he will do that all of sudden. It's just like how the Kid can use several FRS in his Sage Mode (that he got from Hago), but that does not mean his Toad Sage Mode was able to offer him the same thing. It's just 2 different level of increasing in power and abilities. That's how I see it at least.


  There are severly obvious factors that I could only describe as you intentionally overlooking in order for your arguments to work.  Unless Gai gets his AT detonated by susanoo right in his face, or is in such an exhausted and damaged state like he was when he was on bee's head, he fires an AT and is in the same condition* he was when he's standing over kisame. *

The second part, it's the same thing as before: higher gates and higher level gate techniques require more stamina and take a bigger toll on the user's body.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 8, 2014)

Well then you're crazy hussain.. Because Guy did fight immediately after that last showing.. And it was stated he was worn out before ever using seventh gate against juubidara.

Not like this matters though Guy would only need first or second gate at most to overwhelm and also if need be outlast heathly Itachi.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> the strongest person finger genjutsu has worked on is beginning part 2 base naruto, and he didn't have knowledge on it and could even resist it.  Itachi couldn't even get immortals arc naruto into a genjutsu which is why he was forced to use his koto crow to do it.
> 
> Gai is incomparably above that, and canonically looks at his opponent's toes, not fingers.  Finger genjutsu is a non-factor.



I also want to add that, because of pain he suffers during Gates usage, its impossible to put him in a genjutsu.

But Itachi has a lot of tools. And, in terms of speed, he is at least comparable. I think they both have a chance. 50/50


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 8, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> I also want to add that, because of pain he suffers during Gates usage, its impossible to put him in a genjutsu.
> 
> But Itachi has a lot of tools.* And, in terms of speed, he is at least comparable.* I think they both have a chance. 50/50



Itachi is comparable in speed to 7th gated Gai?


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Itachi is comparable in speed to 7th gated Gai?



Itachi fought on par with KCM Naruto, who fought on par with Raikage. But yeah, i think in terms of speed, Gai will be the faster of the two. But Itachi has Amaterasu and he may shot him with it because he isnt slow.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 8, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> I also want to add that, because of pain he suffers during Gates usage, its impossible to put him in a genjutsu.
> 
> But Itachi has a lot of tools. *And, in terms of speed, he is at least comparable. I think they both have a chance.* 50/50


I'm not sure if you're serious. Itachi is a speedster, no doubt. But Gai is a speed specialist and with Gates he absolutely obliterates Gai in speed.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 8, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi fought on par with KCM Naruto, who fought on par with Raikage. But yeah, i think in terms of speed, Gai will be the faster of the two. But Itachi has Amaterasu.


Itachi has the sharingan which allows him to taijutsu people who are far faster than himself, plus naruto wasn't using anything close to his shunshin speed.

7th gated Gai is faster than KCM Naruto ever since he* did this.*


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Itachi has the sharingan which allows him to taijutsu people who are far faster than himself, plus naruto wasn't using anything close to his shunshin speed.
> 
> 7th gated Gai is faster than KCM Naruto ever since he* did this.*



Not just that, but Itachi also has reflexes and movements fast enough to react to those moves that were predicted by sharingan. Remember what Lee says in Part 1? You may predict movements, but your body must be fast enough to respond. Edo Itachi was able to respond to KCM Naruto.

I knew 7 Gates Guy is faster than KCM naruto, or Itachi. But is he fast enough to dodge Itachi's Amaterasu? Thats a quastion.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 8, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Not just that, but Itachi also has reflexes and movements fast enough to react to those moves that were predicted by sharingan. Remember what Lee says in Part 1? You may predict movements, but your body must be fast enough to respond. Edo Itachi was able to respond to KCM Naruto.


...sure, but that still doesn't mean itachi is anywhere near the speed of KCM Naruto, he just has physical body speed that's fast enough when combined with his sharingan precog to match KCM Naruto's taijutsu.

If you reread the VoTe fight, 2 tomoe sasuke was getting blitzed by KN0 Naruto.  His body speed was no where near naruto's to the point that even with the sharingan, he couldn't keep up.  Yet with the three tomoe sharingan, he doesn't just match naruto (like itachi did), but he blitzes naruto.  The difference between itachi and kcm naruto's speed is even greater than that.



StarWanderer said:


> I knew 7 Gates Guy is faster than KCM naruto, or Itachi. But is he fast enough to dodge Itachi's Amaterasu? Thats a quastion.


If Ei would dodge itachi's amaterasu, someone who's faster than the guy who's faster than Ei dodges it with ease.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> ...sure, but that still doesn't mean itachi is anywhere near the speed of KCM Naruto, he just has physical body speed that's fast enough when combined with his sharingan precog to match KCM Naruto's taijutsu.
> 
> If you reread the VoTe fight, 2 tomoe sasuke was getting blitzed by KN0 Naruto.  His body speed was no where near naruto's to the point that even with the sharingan, he couldn't keep up.  Yet with the three tomoe sharingan, he doesn't just match naruto (like itachi did), but he blitzes naruto.  The difference between itachi and kcm naruto's speed is even greater than that.
> 
> ...



Ok, but i think it is not important why Itachi is so fast. He is still fast.

And Ei dodged Sasuke's Amaterasu. I highly doubt Sasuke's Amaterasu is as fast as Itachi's. Its better, but is it faster?


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 8, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Ok, but i think it is not important why Itachi is so fast. He is still fast.


Itachi isn't on the same level of speed as the speedsters like the raikages and kcm naruto.  He's still fast for most of the people on the kage level.



StarWanderer said:


> And Ei dodged Sasuke's Amaterasu. I highly doubt Sasuke's Amaterasu is as fast as Itachi's. Its better, but is it faster?


Why isn't sasuke's amaterasu as fast as itachi's?


----------



## Trojan (Dec 8, 2014)

> [=ueharakk;52414904]I know the 8th gate increases his power much more than the 7th gate, it doesn't however increase his STAMINA.  Opening higher level gates takes a greater toll on the user's body, if Gai can open the 8th gate for X amount of time and fire off Y amount of jutsu while in the 8th gate, then he can hold a lower gate much longer and fire off more jutsu while in the lower gate.
> 
> He's only shown to be extremely weak long after using AT, as in after the battle unless he's already in an exhausted, bloody state prior to firing it (vs edo madara), or if he gets hit by his own explosion (vs Juubidara).



- stamina is based on chakra. I'll use the physical copy of the volume I have because manga-panda is a pain currently.

Vol 10, Page 72:
Kakashi: they constantly maintain limits  on the amount of chakra flowing through the body...limits that
the lotus uses chakra to forcibly override enable the user to draw upon strength that is dozens of times his usual level...even if the user's body is destroyed in the process. 

So, I guess it does increase his stamina as well. 

- I don't think he got hit by his own attack since Madara basically destroyed the AT. 
as for the Edo Madara fight, I don't remember the whole thing, so it might be wise for me to talk about it now. @>@


> Yeah, that was long after the battle and after he reverted to base.  I don't doubt Gai will be in tons of pain after his fight with Itachi, however the affects only comes after he shuts off all the gates and his body actually starts to naturally deal with the damage it took.



 We don't know how long. And in both cases, that was 1 AT, if he use 2 (assuming he can) the effect will be much greater, and so is the pain. As for "Naturally" I do not think so. The first time Sakura healed him, the second time Kurama, and then Narudo. 


> Look at the state he was in before he fired it: exhausted to the point he could barely move, and profusely bleeding.  That has nothing to do with a fresh GAi using it, which is exactly why we see he shows zero signs of fatigue when he used it against kisame.


This may be a fair point. 
What the likelihood that he would use it directly though in your opinion? 


> Obviously he sustained that damage because he got hit by the backlash of his own explosion as a result of madara detonating it with his staff.  That's something that doesn't apply in the situation where he fires it on susanoo.


I still don't think that the explosion hit him. Not sure how you got that honestly. @_@


> There are severly obvious factors that I could only describe as you intentionally overlooking in order for your arguments to work.  Unless Gai gets his AT detonated by susanoo right in his face, or is in such an exhausted and damaged state like he was when he was on bee's head, he fires an AT and is in the same condition* he was when he's standing over kisame. *


* he was when he's standing over kisame. *
I don't see how was that blown it in his face. 
Madara cut it in half, but the 2 halves passed madara from the 2 sides. O_O





SSMG said:


> Well then you're crazy hussain.. Because Guy did fight immediately after that last showing.. And it was stated he was worn out before ever using seventh gate against juubidara.
> 
> Not like this matters though Guy would only need first or second gate at most to overwhelm and also if need be outlast heathly Itachi.



- Obviously because he used the gates again to a higher degree, just like how Lee did against Gaara.
- lol, I don't care about itachi or defending him, but to think he needs 7 gates to defeat Kisame (without his sword), but only needs 1 or 2 to defeat itachi who's stronger than Kisame , I do not even know what to tell you.  

I guess I will leave this to his fans.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Itachi isn't on the same level of speed as the speedsters like the raikages and kcm naruto.  He's still fast for most of the people on the kage level.
> 
> 
> Why isn't sasuke's amaterasu as fast as itachi's?



He fought on par with KCM naruto. That means he is at least on par with KCM Naruto/Raikage in terms of overall speed.

Maybe because Sasuke isnt as fast as Itachi.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 8, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> He fought on par with KCM naruto. That means he is at least on par with KCM Naruto/Raikage in terms of overall speed.


I literally just explained why people with the sharingan can fight on par with other people, and even fight ABOVE them in taijutsu, yet not be anywhere near their speed.  Address that argument, or it's just you ignoring and thus conceding that argument.



StarWanderer said:


> Maybe because Sasuke isnt as fast as Itachi.


based on what?  and since when does bodily speed have anything to do with amaterasu's speed?


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I literally just explained why people with the sharingan can fight on par with other people, and even fight ABOVE them in taijutsu, yet not be anywhere near their speed.  Address that argument, or it's just you ignoring and thus conceding that argument.
> 
> 
> based on what?  and since when does bodily speed have anything to do with amaterasu's speed?



Ok, Itachi is in the same speed class as KCM Naruto and Raikage because of his sharingan. Satisfied?

But ok, you have a point in Amaterasu dodging. Than probably Guy has even better chances of beating Itachi after all.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 8, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> *Ok, Itachi is in the same speed class as KCM Naruto and Raikage because of his sharingan. Satisfied?*
> 
> But ok, you have a point in Amaterasu dodging. Than probably Guy has even better chances of beating Itachi after all.



Pfff, what?


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 8, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - stamina is based on chakra. I'll use the physical copy of the volume I have because manga-panda is a pain currently.
> 
> Vol 10, Page 72:
> Kakashi: they constantly maintain limits  on the amount of chakra flowing through the body...limits that
> ...


The gates don't increase a person's chakra reserves, they increase the amount of or rate a person's chakra reserves that flows through the body, thus allowing the muscles to access more chakra for stronger and faster movements.  

If you read what you just posted, the limiting factor for the gates is that it destroys the user's body in the process of using them.  That's due to the muscles using chakra past their safe limits and thus damaging themselves in order to do so.  The higher the gates, the higher the chakra the muscles use and the more the body destroys itself via movements of those muscles/uses of that chakra.  Lack of chakra hardly ever is the limiting factor, it's physical damage to the user's body.

I thought this was pretty clear when literally every time people use the gates, their BODY is the thing that suffers, as in lee's tendon's/muscles snap, Gai's body becomes so weak a touch makes him scream in pain, and bones get shattered/body turned into ash.



Hussain said:


> - I don't think he got hit by his own attack since Madara basically destroyed the AT.
> as for the Edo Madara fight, I don't remember the whole thing, so it might be wise for me to talk about it now. @>@


Are you serious?  If firing AT causes Gai to break several ribs, suffer instant incapacitation, and lose the 7th gate all together, why is he shown instantly standing above kisame with zero damage after using AT?*
The manga shows a giant explosion beneath the shinjuu root,* the center of that explosion was Gai's hands, and you're saying Gai wasn't hit by his own attack?
You do realize that this point is a reason for anyone in this thread not to take you seriously right?



Hussain said:


> * We don't know how long.* And in both cases, that was 1 AT, if he use 2 (assuming he can) the effect will be much greater, and so is the pain. As for "Naturally" I do not think so. The first time Sakura healed him, the second time Kurama, and then Narudo.


Bolded doesn't mean anything.  Give me a timeframe.  Sure the affect would be much greater after 2, so what?  Those affects and recovery time only apply to Gai long after the fight and long after he powers out of his gates, and his body starts recovering itself from the damage the gates have done.  That has nothing to do with him using more ATs when he shows zero signs of exhaustion or detriment from the damage done to his body.



Hussain said:


> This may be a fair point.
> What the likelihood that he would use it directly though in your opinion?


I don't understand what you mean by the second line.



Hussain said:


> I still don't think that the explosion hit him. Not sure how you got that honestly. @_@
> *
> The manga shows a giant explosion beneath the shinjuu root,*
> I don't see how was that blown it in his face.
> Madara cut it in half, but the 2 halves passed madara from the 2 sides. O_O


see above.

And no, Madara didn't cut the thing in half causing AT to travel forward in two pieces, he cut it in half and caused it to detonate right there as clearly shown by all the smoke everywhere and the explosion we see beneath the shinjuu root.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 8, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Ok, Itachi is in the same speed class as KCM Naruto and Raikage because of his sharingan. Satisfied?


 He's slower than Ei and KCM Naruto, he can just fight on par with them in taijutsu due to the sharingan, just like Sasuke and SM NAruto are slower than the raikages yet can blitz them due to their super reactions.



StarWanderer said:


> But ok, you have a point in Amaterasu dodging. Than probably Guy has even better chances of beating Itachi after all.


high five


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> He's slower than Ei and KCM Naruto, he can just fight on par with them in taijutsu due to the sharingan, just like Sasuke and SM NAruto are slower than the raikages yet can blitz them due to their super reactions.
> 
> 
> high five



In other words, his movements speed is comparable to that of KCM naruto, or Raikage because of his sharingan. And MS Sasuke is slower than Itachi, just like SM Naruto.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 8, 2014)

People it won't be a matter of who outlast who here 
1 of them would collapse long before outlasting comes into play

gai can use hirudora more than once 

However the assumptions that he is simply too fast for itachi to do anything about is simply false


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 8, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> In other words, his movements speed is comparable to that of KCM naruto, or Raikage because of his sharingan. And MS Sasuke is slower than Itachi, just like SM Naruto.



no, his movement speed isn't comparable.  He's able to predict his opponents movements so that he can match them in taijutsu without having to possess equal movement speed with them due to the sharingan.  Like I literally explained this with VoTe sasuke vs Naruto, I don't know why you just choose to ignore that, the movement speeds are not equal, one has greater than the other, the reactions of the doujutsu user allows them to make up for their lack of movement speed.

Why are MS Sasuke and SM Naruto slower than MS Itachi?


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 8, 2014)

Gai can use hirudara more then once but it takes a great toll on his body....he spams it he goes down quickly and people i think are underestimating itachis complete armoured sussano...i know its no ps but its way above v3


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 8, 2014)

ok people. 

this is how i see it going now jad i want just you to tell me why this wont happen. As you are the most reasonable person i know when it comes to gai 

Gai knows its itachi and powers up to 7 gate cuz he isnt going to be fucking around. also its a massively convenient way to avoid eye contact, something he knows he needs to do

when he is powering up, why on earth cant itachi simply leave a karasu bunshin?? if he can trick Sm kabuto and Ems sasuke in plain sight. gai would not see it comign considerign the dust cloud he sets up when he powers in 7 gate

so gai hits the bunshin and is caught in genjutsu. what on earth stops itachi at that point from beheading him or lighting him on fire with amaterasu

it is entirely possible itachi would not even need to use susanoo to beat gai. not when itachi can genjutsu him in so many ways, even if he avoids eye contact

karasu bunshin is somethign people underestimate alot. its auto genjutsu trolling, you hit it you get caught in genjutsu

So jad please tell me why this wont work??


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> no, his movement speed isn't comparable.  He's able to predict his opponents movements so that he can match them in taijutsu without having to possess equal movement speed with them due to the sharingan.  Like I literally explained this with VoTe sasuke vs Naruto, I don't know why you just choose to ignore that, the movement speeds are not equal, one has greater than the other, the reactions of the doujutsu user allows them to make up for their lack of movement speed.
> 
> Why are MS Sasuke and SM Naruto slower than MS Itachi?



Sharingan can predict any move, including taijutsu. And that is why Itachi can keep up with KCM Naruto, or Raikage. Sharingan can "make" him fast enough to fight fast opponents.

Also, the body itself is important for sharingan user to react to his opponent. In case with Sasuke, he wasnt as skilled as Naruto, but when he gain those ayes, he could see the movements before they are made. His perception skills were better, thats all.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 8, 2014)

^ Itachi kept up with a KCM Naruto who used his kage bushin technique to produce at least twelve clones.. So that was no where near the speed he used to dodge Ei with. He also wasn't using his shunshin against Itachi and he was really trying as he was having a conversation with Itachi.

Base guy however has better speed feats than KCM Naruto who used one clone and also reacted to Naruto speed from behind when Naruto use 0 clones. Guy reacted to someone who could blitz KCM Naruto(Obito) and that was when Naruto was trying. Guy in base had to save Naruto twice from Obito.

Itachi gets blitzd by base Guy let alone seventh gate Guy who is in god tier speeds.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 8, 2014)

gai doesnt have better speed feats than KCM
they were combining their attacks. would be stupid to be going full speed when not all of them move at the same speed. 
KCM naruto did not attack obito at full speed, no where close. 

gai can casually fall to a karasu bunshin, he hits it he is in genjutsu. he got zero counter to that. considering he powers up and makes a very nice cloud of smoke for itachi to hide in it even makes it much more likely considering in plane sight itachi was able to pull this off and fool *EMS sasuke and SM kabuto, both with perceptive skills sooo far above gai's *


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

SSMG said:


> ^ Itachi kept up with a KCM Naruto who used his kage bushin technique to produce at least twelve clones.. So that was no where near the speed he used to dodge Ei with. He also wasn't using his shunshin against Itachi and he was really trying as he was having a conversation with Itachi.
> 
> Base guy however has better speed feats than KCM Naruto who used one clone and also reacted to Naruto speed from behind when Naruto use 0 clones. Guy reacted to someone who could blitz KCM Naruto(Obito) and that was when Naruto was trying. Guy in base had to save Naruto twice from Obito.
> 
> Itachi gets blitzd by base Guy let alone seventh gate Guy who is in god tier speeds.



Good point out there. I forgot about Naruto's bunshins. 

Than it seems Guy can blitz Itachi.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 8, 2014)

Ice  that only accounts for one of the instances i brought up. You forget Naruto couldn't react and dodge Obito like he did to raikage. He had to be saved by Guy. This alone puts base Guy in that tier. Also Guy reacted and countered Obito which also puts him in the kcm Naruto tier. And  to what you did mention... When they coordinated their attacks they were aiming for the moment Obito went soild to make him go intangible again so there's no reason for it to be anything slower than his full speed.

Also what bush in technique are you referring to?

And whydo you think that guy needs to go seventh gate to handle itachi?
 Also prove sm kabuto and ems Sasuke have better perception than Guy.


And yeah it seems a lot of ppl forget about that starwanderer so I'm glad I can help.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 8, 2014)

^Eternal Mangekyo Sasuke was capable of following Juubito's speed, and also (alongside BSM Naruto) was able to tag him with a Perfect Susano'o sword. Yes, Seventh Gated Guy pushed Judara back and what not, but that has more to do with Judara simply not being strong enough to withstand the blows of the latter's punches as opposed to anything else. It's not like Guy ever actually managed to tag his Juubi Jinchuriki opponent outright anyway (until he opened the Eighth Gate), unlike Naruto and Sasuke, who did. And Judara wasn't trying to speed blitz Guy or anything either, he was pretty casual and clearly more interested in observing Guy's style than killing him immediately.

 Keep in mind that even BM Naruto's speed (with BM Naruto being far slower than his BSM counterpart) was enough to leave Gated Guy gobsmacked. 

Only if Guy opens the Eighth Gate, does he surpass BSM Naruto in speed, and move too fast for EMS Sasuke to track. Otherwise...? He's far slower.

I do agree on Sage Kabuto though.


----------



## TheGreen1 (Dec 8, 2014)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> ^Eternal Mangekyo Sasuke was capable of following Juubito's speed, and also (alongside BSM Naruto) was able to tag him with a Perfect Susano'o sword. Yes, Seventh Gated Guy pushed Judara back and what not, but that has more to do with Judara simply not being strong enough to withstand the blow of the latter's punches as opposed to anything else. Keep in mind that even BM Naruto's speed (with BM Naruto being far slower than his BSM counterpart) was enough to leave Gated Guy gobsmacked.
> 
> Only if Guy opens the Eighth Gate, does he surpass BSM Naruto in speed, and move too fast for EMS Sasuke to trak.



This shit doesn't even matter. Itachi might be able to see 7th-Gated Gai, but he certainly can't do anything about it. If Gai hits him, Itachi's not fast enough to get out of the way.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> ^Eternal Mangekyo Sasuke was capable of following Juubito's speed, and also (alongside BSM Naruto) was able to tag him with a Perfect Susano'o sword. Yes, Seventh Gated Guy pushed Judara back and what not, but that has more to do with Judara simply not being strong enough to withstand the blows of the latter's punches as opposed to anything else. It's not like Guy ever actually managed to tag his Juubi Jinchuriki opponent outright anyway (until he opened the Eighth Gate), unlike Naruto and Sasuke, who did. And Judara wasn't trying to speed blitz Guy or anything either, he was pretty casual and clearly more interested in observing Guy's style than killing him immediately.
> 
> Keep in mind that even BM Naruto's speed (with BM Naruto being far slower than his BSM counterpart) was enough to leave Gated Guy gobsmacked.
> 
> ...



I can add that Juubito had an opportunity to blitz both Naruto and Sasuke, but Minato saved them both.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 8, 2014)

People wank on speed far too much 
The only actual speed battle where the faster person won was minato
So far no one else has won because they were faster 

Seriously unbearable hype on he is faster so he wins . Speed gets you from point A to B

In CQC range skill and moveset allows you to land hits . 

This is why even before gai feat against madara I always thought he could beat Ei 

Because he has shown more skill . 

This isn't to say gai isn't skilled but just simply being faster isn't the beginning and end to the whole match up


----------



## GearsUp (Dec 8, 2014)

gai blitzes while looking at his feet


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 8, 2014)

People underestimate the toll 7 gates takes. If Guy opens that gate, then he better be prepared to go all out and finish itachi in he hat one moment.

Let's not lie to ourselves, guy can't keep that gate open long at all, in fact I've only even seen him open that gate long enough for a single attack. The 7th gate causes great pain and tears the muscle fibres. If guys body is even touched after entering the 7th gate, he'll feel immense pain. 

Guy isn't performing more that 1 Hirudora, not sure why people think he can spam this. That technique will wear him out a lot, to the point where moving his body will be painful as well. If Itachis Yata mirror blocks said jutsu, then guy is in trouble. And morning peacock won't do anything to v3-v4 level Susanoo I don't think.

I believe Guy has all the tools to beat itachi, but I wish people would stop giving the gates unlimited capabilities, it's not KCM or lightning chakra mode. He can't just activate it on and off and conserve it, if he opens 7th gate once, then that's honestly gonna be his last attack.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 8, 2014)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> ^Eternal Mangekyo Sasuke was capable of following Juubito's speed, and also (alongside BSM Naruto) was able to tag him with a Perfect Susano'o sword. Yes, Seventh Gated Guy pushed Judara back and what not, but that has more to do with Judara simply not being strong enough to withstand the blows of the latter's punches as opposed to anything else. It's not like Guy ever actually managed to tag his Juubi Jinchuriki opponent outright anyway (until he opened the Eighth Gate), unlike Naruto and Sasuke, who did. And Judara wasn't trying to speed blitz Guy or anything either, he was pretty casual and clearly more interested in observing Guy's style than killing him immediately.
> 
> Keep in mind that even BM Naruto's speed (with BM Naruto being far slower than his BSM counterpart) was enough to leave Gated Guy gobsmacked.
> 
> ...



So ems Sasuke can track and react to juubito.. But guy has no showings against juubito so this whole comparison is pretty much meaningless.

But ems Sasuke got reacted to and owned in cqc by eyeless sage madara who should be slower than juubijin madara and he was instantly reacted to and owned by one eyed sage madara as well.... Who as well is slower than juubijin madara. Guy pushed juubidara back in a cqc combat exvhange and keep in mind sm minato was instantly owned by juubidara.. And minato coukd also react to juubito. Guy has unquestionably better showings than ems sasuke when we factor these in.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 8, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> People underestimate the toll 7 gates takes. If Guy opens that gate, then he better be prepared to go all out and finish itachi in he hat one moment.
> 
> Let's not lie to ourselves, guy can't keep that gate open long at all, in fact I've only even seen him open that gate long enough for a single attack. The 7th gate causes great pain and tears the muscle fibres. If guys body is even touched after entering the 7th gate, he'll feel immense pain.
> 
> ...



Nah man guy used seventh gate against juubidara while he was already exhausted before going at madara and then opened an even more taxing level of gates in use the eighth gate. So if he can do this then a fresh guy should have no problem using seventh gate for extended periods of time.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 9, 2014)

Gai fastest punch was dealt with the same ease as minato attack


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Gai fastest punch was dealt with the same ease as minato attack



Guy puched Juubidara back with Daytime Tiger, wile SM Edo Minato was completely speedblitzed and did nothing at all.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 9, 2014)

he didnt punch madara back, madara canceled the jutus it exploded. gai got flattened, madara moved back 

end of the day both their attacks were swung down on with the same lack of interest.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> he didnt punch madara back, madara canceled the jutus it exploded. gai got flattened, madara moved back
> 
> end of the day both their attacks were swung down on with the same lack of interest.



Guy was trading punches with Juubidara and Juubidara was flying from Daytime Tiger, although that technique had little effect on Juubidara. But its not about power of his technique - its about speed with which he moved. SM Minato got blitzed quickly by Juubidara.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 9, 2014)

he wasnt trading punches, juudara was blocking with 1 hand while moving back and avoiding to touch gai with the staff 

juudara moved back, he didnt fly this is basically natsu vs gildart 

gai fastest punch was slower than madara when madara proceeded to actually counter


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> he wasnt trading punches, juudara was blocking with 1 hand while moving back and avoiding to touch gai with the staff
> 
> juudara moved back, he didnt fly this is basically natsu vs gildart
> 
> gai fastest punch was slower than madara when madara proceeded to actually counter



It was Guy who avoided the staff. And Juubidara blocked as he could at that moment. And he got back from that attack. He was liying on the ground, as i remember. 

Anyway, SM Minato was blitzed in a moment. And Guy wasnt. Because of that, we can say that 7 Gates Guy is faster than SM Edo Minato. He is also probably faster than alive Minato, because Edo Minato used Sage Mode to augment his speed and reaction and we know alive Minato never used SM in combat.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

@ ice Madara was pushed back from the hirudora.
Link removed

If he simply moved back like you're suggesting thered be no skidmarks along his path.

And also madara didn't instantly own Guy like he did to Minato so by default Guys showing is better.

But this is all useless as seventh gate guy is like a 100x faster than itachi. Base guy is faster as well.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 9, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> It was Guy who avoided the staff. And Juubidara blocked as he could at that moment. And he got back from that attack. He was liying on the ground, as i remember.
> 
> Anyway, SM Minato was blitzed in a moment. And Guy wasnt. Because of that, we can say that 7 Gates Guy is faster than SM Edo Minato. He is also probably faster than alive Minato, because Edo Minato used Sage Mode to augment his speed and reaction and we know alive Minato never used SM in combat.



Lol your new here I see that now 

Juudara was never on the floor 

And one more time slowly for the silly ones 

Hirudora is gai fastest attack in 7th gate 

Juudara swung down his staff like he did with minato Ez end 

Gai can be much faster than itachi all he wants SM kabuto was as well 

It did not stop itachi from feinting him

something made easier by the fact that gai powering up creates a cloud of dust 

Gai hits a karasu bunshin and gets Amaterasu 

Madara really was just blocking gai this isn't to say he has any difficultly doing that


----------



## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

It doesn't seem like hirudora is guys fastest seventh gate punch. Guy need to set up the hand seal then punch which would take longer than simply closing a fist then punching.

Also this is evident by madara not being able to intercept guys seventh gate regular punches yet he could do so against hirudora.

But again base guy is faster than itachi so guy would only need first gate at most to wtfblitz him.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Lol your new here I see that now
> 
> Juudara was never on the floor
> 
> ...



Since he wasnt able to blitz him, he had some difficulty. That is enough speed feat to consider him very fast. As i remember, he was liying on the ground. But i can be mistaken. I have bad internet connection right now so i cant find that manga.

And it had been proved Guy is superior to Itachi. And Daytime Tiger isnt his fastest 7 Gates attack, dummy.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

Link removed 
Madara gets pushed back second panel... But it was guy who got laid on his back.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 9, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Since he wasnt able to blitz him, he had some difficulty. That is enough speed feat to consider him very fast. As i remember, he was liying on the ground. But i can be mistaken. I have bad internet connection right now so i cant find that manga.
> 
> And it had been proved Guy is superior to Itachi. And Daytime Tiger isnt his fastest 7 Gates attack, dummy.



 
in 7th gate gai fastest attack is hirudora he says this in the intro of the technique
why are you even posting. its like you dont even know naruto at all


----------



## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

People say a lot of things in the manga. Feats> statements.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 9, 2014)

so gai doesnt know his own abilities 

this is my fastest punch...oh no wait. its not. i lied for the lolz, cuz u noe that makes sense 

its odd that hirudora is a punch creating a wave of compressed air and is his actual gated technique yet its what slower than him throwing a regular punch. 

u dont even understand these feats you speak of. not even a little bit.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> in 7th gate gai fastest attack is hirudora he says this in the intro of the technique
> why are you even posting. its like you dont even know naruto at all



He needs hand seal in order to make Hirudora. And he needs a little time preparation. Madara just used that moment to block it with his staff. And, overall, that fight proves 7 gates Guy is faster than SM Edo Minato.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 9, 2014)

good boy. 
wasnt the point i was making. he has clearly stated hirudora is his fastest attack in 7th gate why debate something stated in the manga that had no agenda which could make the statement misleading? 

he said this is a technique on a whole other level to asa kujaku, this is my fastest punch in this form. 

therefore that attack is obviously faster than his previous skrimish with juudara. and the fact that juudara blocked his fastest attack with the same disinterest as he did minato attack leads me to believe there isnt much of a speed difference between minato attack and his. 

this doesnt mean i am saying gai is slower than minato. frankly not the  point of the thread 

as for itachi vs gai. no one has yet to explain why a karasu bunshin swap when gai is powering up cant be used. 

this tactic makes sense.  as for the assumption that he pushed juudara back therefore all below him cant even see gai, please note before that juubito was the strongest and pretty much hit minato while he used hirashin. 

killer bee had stalemated him on one attack. that however doesnt suddenly mean that because Ei didnt see minato attack that bee is much faster than Ei. 

an important thing everyone forgets once they hop on their speed fandtardism is skill matters. 

hiruzen who in no way shape or form can be considered a speed demon was still able to react to juubito attack. despite that same juubito cutting minato arm off, the same minato who Ei the fastest person at the time cant seem to touch. 

its not all about speed people. gaara a much much slower ninja than lee at the time was able to flat out escape lee technique mid way. 

sasuke much slower than Ei still stalemated Ei. 


Ei much faster than edo madara still coudlnt see to beat madara clones


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> good boy.
> wasnt the point i was making. he has clearly stated hirudora is his fastest attack in 7th gate why debate something stated in the manga that had no agenda which could make the statement misleading?
> 
> he said this is a technique on a whole other level to asa kujaku, this is my fastest punch in this form.
> ...



It is his fastest attack when he attacks with it. Madara used preparation time to block it with his staff. 

And with no interest? Do you have proof of that? If Juubidara could blitz him like he blitzed Minato, he would have done it. But he didnt. The fact is the fact, son - 7 gates Guy is faster than Minato. It is obvious.

Well, son, i am not going to read all things you wrote there. I am too lazy right now. But i will write something to you.

-Itachi has noo speed feats to suggest he can do anything to Guy when he is in 7 Gates Mode. And Guy can destroy his Susanoo no problem, since Yata Mirror is featless and Guy already proved himself powerfull enough to destroy Madara's incomplete Susanoo with Hirudora. 

Guy beats Itachi.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 9, 2014)

he attacked with it. hence why we see the tiger get countered 

he swung down with a blank facial expression. madara interested grins like a  ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) even when getting beat up 

of course gai beats itachi 

because everyone who is faster than itachi also beats him. you know all those with these feats you speak of 

your entire BS weak minded post still doesnt counter the fact that someone who is utterly fooling a sage mode user in plain Sight and an EMS user with a bunshin can easily do this when gai kicks up dust during his gate release. if u cant even use ur brain to grasp that then seriously go pray to jesus cuz u need help


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> he attacked with it. hence why we see the tiger get countered
> 
> he swung down with a blank facial expression. madara interested grins like a  ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) even when getting beat up
> 
> ...



Preparation time... But ok. Anyway, Guy still was much better against Juubidara and didnt get blitzed like Minato.

He had usual expression on his face. if he could blitz him, he would have blitzed him, just like he blitzed Minato. But he couldnt.

Guy can release his 7 gate just before the fight starts. Calm down, son. I understand you lost this debate, but its not a reason to get so angry.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 9, 2014)

yes preparation time. which u invented. good for u. 

lol....says the newbie with half a brain. 

if gai gates before the fight starts, itachi can tskuyomi him before the fight starts. wow you are a moron 

the idea is for people to start fighting when the fight starts


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> yes preparation time. which u invented. good for u.
> 
> lol....says the newbie with half a brain.
> 
> ...



Son, you didnt calm down? Oh, thats sad. Its better for your health to calm down your nerves, realy.

But back on our topic - exactly in 7 Gates state, Guy is faster than Minato and Itachi. And Guy can activate 7 gates before the fight starts. Just like Itachi can activate his Susanoo before the fight starts. Still wont change a thing.

Oh, and even base Guy will give Itachi lots of trouble. And i also wanna see how someone in Narutoverse attacked Guy at the moment of Gate Release. It seems he is activating that state too fast for someone to attack him at that moment.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 9, 2014)

Honestly it could go either way at this point however I give the benefit of the doubt to Itachi to be victories more times then not

7 Gates will push Itachi to his limits or damn near kill him


----------



## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> so gai doesnt know his own abilities
> 
> this is my fastest punch...oh no wait. its not. i lied for the lolz, cuz u noe that makes sense
> 
> ...



So then hirudora is also a one hit kill technique then as well right? Because guy said it so it must be.

The punch creates that shockwave because of his hand seal he creates. 

But which one for you takes longer to do? Curl your hand into a fist or make an integrate woven hand seal?
Also we've seen guy use a hirudora while hands hands are bound and didn't actually push them out like a punch at all.. So are you sure you know what you're talking about?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Dec 9, 2014)

Itachi wins through versatility, unless we count and he does that non-sensical 7th gate Juubi Jin Madara blitz, and he does that.  Which I'm inclined to toss out because it makes no narrative sense.  Much like a lot of things that happened at the end of the series.  ...and the series.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> It is his fastest attack when he attacks with it. Madara used preparation time to block it with his staff.
> 
> And with no interest? Do you have proof of that? If Juubidara could blitz him like he blitzed Minato, he would have done it. But he didnt. The fact is the fact, son - 7 gates Guy is faster than Minato. It is obvious.
> 
> ...



The fact is hirudara is gais fastest attack...it is stated by the guy himself he has absolutely no need to lie he is talking about himself and not comparing himself or making blank statements like this is the strongest attack we have no reason to deny it..no point in hyping the attack if a simple punch is superior madara dodged every attack nonchalantly and the moment he realized that gai was somewhat of a threat he easily bitchslapped gais fastest and strongest attack in 7th gate away which resulted in him lying on his ass helpless..essentially gai was also helpless when madara counterattacked..preparation time.....why in gods name would gai use hirudara in that case if he thought simple punches taijutsu and punches were faster and superior

Itachi has a sussano that is 2 levels above the one hirudara busted....what proof do you have hirudara can bust it? v1 sussano was getting grinded by base narutos chou oodama rasengan yet v2 knocked it away...see how much of a difference one level makes?..


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> The fact is hirudara is gais fastest attack...it is stated by the guy himself he has absolutely no need to lie he is talking about himself and not comparing himself or making blank statements like this is the strongest attack we have no reason to deny it..no point in hyping the attack if a simple punch is superior madara dodged every attack nonchalantly and the moment he realized that gai was somewhat of a threat he easily bitchslapped gais fastest and strongest attack in 7th gate away which resulted in him lying on his ass helpless..essentially gai was also helpless when madara counterattacked..preparation time.....why in gods name would gai use hirudara in that case if he thought simple punches taijutsu and punches were faster and superior
> 
> Itachi has a sussano that is 2 levels above the one hirudara busted....what proof do you have hirudara can bust it? v1 sussano was getting grinded by base narutos chou oodama rasengan yet v2 knocked it away...see how much of a difference one level makes?..



Juubidara did react to 7 Gates Guy no doubt. Because he was able to block his punches. But Guy in 7 Gates Mode dodged his staff and pushed him on his defencive. That itself is an impressive feat. And what can we see when Sage Mode Minato tried to attack Juubidara? Juubidara easily, effortlessly manhandled him like he is nothing but a cannon fodder. And Guy was lying because of 7 Gates since Madara didnt hit him in that confrontation. 

That proves 7 Gates Guy is above Minato in terms of speed. Plain, logical and simple. Its a fact, dude.

And now on topic - Itachis Susanoo is featless and it was destroyed by Kirin. Yata Mirror is also featless. Guy breaks it and kills Itachi.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Juubidara did react to 7 Gates Guy no doubt. Because he was able to block his punches. But Guy in 7 Gates Mode dodged his staff and pushed him on his defencive. That itself is an impressive feat. And what can we see when Sage Mode Minato tried to attack Juubidara? Juubidara easily, effortlessly manhandled him like he is nothing but a cannon fodder. And Guy was lying because of 7 Gates since Madara didnt hit him in that confrontation.
> 
> That proves 7 Gates Guy is above Minato in terms of speed. Plain, logical and simple. Its a fact, dude.
> 
> And now on topic - Itachis Susanoo is featless and it was destroyed by Kirin. Yata Mirror is also featless. Guy breaks it and kills Itachi.



So madara can casually slap away gais fastest and strongest punch yet gets defensive by his normal punches and kicks....hmm once madara got serious gai was on his ass defenseless.....itachis sussano is 2 levels above the one of madaras what makes you thnk that its durability is not enhanced this argument is ludicrous...theres v3 then v4 then armour then cloak..


----------



## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

No its not his fastest punch since he needs to weave the hand signs for hirudora but he just needs to curl a fist for regular punches. Hirudora also isn't a regular punch seeing as guy can shot them off with his hands bound. He didn't extend his arms at all for the one against Edo Madara.

And we know getting connected by guys gated punches are stronger than the air pressure of them due to Madara taking an EE air pressure than saying he can't allow to be directly connected by one.

As to whether Itachis susanno can tank an hirudora I'm not sure but the its greatest tanking feats are extremely weaker than hirudora so I doubt it.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

SSMG said:


> No its not his fastest punch since he needs to weave the hand signs for hirudora but he just needs to curl a fist for regular punches. Hirudora also isn't a regular punch seeing as guy can shot them off with his hands bound. He didn't extend his arms at all for the one against Edo Madara.
> 
> And we know getting connected by guys gated punches are stronger than the air pressure of them due to Madara taking an EE air pressure than saying he can't allow to be directly connected by one.
> 
> As to whether Itachis susanno can tank an hirudora I'm not sure but the its greatest tanking feats are extremely weaker than hirudora so I doubt it.



Just tell me this why would gai lie about his own jutsu...i mean blanket statements like my jutsu is strongest or im fastest can be taken into question because its comparative but when the person is talking about himself  why would you assume he is lying except to suit your argument? please enlighen me...it requires a fraction of a sec of to prepare and the resulting attack is his fastest..even though against madars sussano it was practically instantaneous....and most importantly why in gods good name would gai use hirudara against juubidara if his simple punches were faster and more effective he was in cqc range aswell?? especially when they would present no risk of aftershock to himself???

kirin is not extremely weaker to hirudara/... and itachi sure as hell did not form complete armoured sussano against kirin..


----------



## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

Because the feats indicate that he was lying or perhaps misinformed. Madara couldn't cut in between attacks with his staff until guy had to take a small break in his continuous assault to weave the hands signs.

Maybe guy meant hirudora its his fastest attack though because its a ranged attack once its launched from his hands so it'd cover more distance in less time.

Also kirin went through Itachis susanno seeing as the mountain was still destroyed and Itachis cloak was burnt as well. And we don't know what level of susanno itachi put up for that either.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Because the feats indicate that he was lying or perhaps misinformed. Madara couldn't cut in between attacks with his staff until guy had to take a small break in his continuous assault to weave the hands signs.
> 
> Maybe guy meant hirudora its his fastest attack though because its a ranged attack once its launched from his hands so it'd cover more distance in less time.
> 
> Also kirin went through Itachis susanno seeing as the mountain was still destroyed and Itachis cloak was burnt as well. And we don't know what level of susanno itachi put up for that either.



Right lying about his own jutsu and misinformed about his jutsu which he trained for decades seems legit....so its his fastest attack and such its faster then gai in 7th gate...hmm..

You still havent mentioned why in gods name did he use hirudara against juubidara if he his simple taijutsu kicks and punches were not only faster but also more potent then hirudara when he was already in cqc range especially when the usage of hirudara would leave him severely injured through backlash??

Kirin was much larger then sussano and thus destroyed the small mountain....and we are sure it wasnt complete sussano because itachi when fresh ca only manifest v3 sussano almost instantly..


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> So madara can casually slap away gais fastest and strongest punch yet gets defensive by his normal punches and kicks....hmm once madara got serious gai was on his ass defenseless.....itachis sussano is 2 levels above the one of madaras what makes you thnk that its durability is not enhanced this argument is ludicrous...theres v3 then v4 then armour then cloak..



To makee Hirudora, Guy needs to make hand seals. And that is one of reasons why Madara countered that punch. 

And he was serious. There was no sence for him to not get serious. He was on the defensive. Yeah, he blocked Guys attacks, but he was on defensive all the time. He even countered Hirudora, while being on the defensive. And Guy was down because of 7 Gates opening influence. It damages the body of one who used it. Thats why Guy was down.

That feat itself is above anything itachi has in terms of speed. 

And Madara's imperfect Susanoo is more durable than Itachi's Susanoo. because it has feats and Itachi's Susanoo has no feats. It was completely obliterated by Sasuke's Kirin while Madara's imperfect Susanoo casually withstood kage level attacks, including Naruto's Ultra Big Ball Rasenshuriken. 

Guy wrecks Itachi.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> To makee Hirudora, Guy needs to make hand seals. And that is one of reasons why Madara countered that punch.
> 
> And he was serious. There was no sence for him to not get serious. He was on the defensive. Yeah, he blocked Guys attacks, but he was on defensive all the time. He even countered Hirudora, while being on the defensive. And Guy was down because of 7 Gates opening influence. It damages the body of one who used it. Thats why Guy was down.
> 
> ...



Gai was down because he was caught in the blast of miday tiger....if 7thgate had such an impact how could gai go into 8th gate..he dodged all of gais attacks but counterattacked when hirudara was brought into the fight.....none of those kage level attacks were on the level of kirin....madaras imperfect suusano never withstood narutos ultra big ball rasenshuriken...a normal rasenshuriken got madara to comment thats a bit too much when he was in imerfect sussano..


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 9, 2014)

Madara susanoo never withstood Chouodama FRS
So itachi susanoo has no feats therefore it's weaker ??
Sorry u make it sound like the big bad wolf came and blew it down 

It didn't meet an attack  other than Kirin which broke it  now considering Kirin was said to vastly outweigh what any elemental jutsu can do with a person chakra I don't see how that makes itachi susanoo weak 

So your logic would be his susanoo never went against hirudora therefore it's weak and would be broken ?

Jad where u at men I need decent argument here


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Gai was down because he was caught in the blast of miday tiger....if 7thgate had such an impact how could gai go into 8th gate..he dodged all of gais attacks but counterattacked when hirudara was brought into the fight.....none of those kage level attacks were on the level of kirin....madaras imperfect suusano never withstood narutos ultra big ball rasenshuriken...a normal rasenshuriken got madara to comment thats a bit too much when he was in imerfect sussano..



Maybe he was caught with Daytime Tiger. And it has a great impact on something that was directly hit by it. And i wanted to write Rasengan, not Rasenshuriken. My mistake.

Those attacks were not on Kirins level when we are talking about speed of those techniques. And Kirin obliterated his Susanoo anyway. Guy managed to obliterate Madara's imperfect Susanoo with Hirudora. Itachi's Susanoo wont be a problem.

Guy had to make hand seals to make Hirudora. It is obvious. And that can be the reason why Madara countered it. The technique itself was faster than any punch Guy can land in 7 Gates Mode. But in order to make Hirudora, you must make hand seals. And that takes time. Madara just used that time. Thats all.

And the fact he wasnt able to blitz Guy just like he blitzed Minato is already very impressive.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Right lying about his own jutsu and misinformed about his jutsu which he trained for decades seems legit....so its his fastest attack and such its faster then gai in 7th gate...hmm..
> 
> You still havent mentioned why in gods name did he use hirudara against juubidara if he his simple taijutsu kicks and punches were not only faster but also more potent then hirudara when he was already in cqc range especially when the usage of hirudara would leave him severely injured through backlash??
> 
> Kirin was much larger then sussano and thus destroyed the small mountain....and we are sure it wasnt complete sussano because itachi when fresh ca only manifest v3 sussano almost instantly..


 People are misinformed all the time. Heck guy was misinformed about hirudora.. Unless you think kisame died from hirudora. 
Also its very possible once launched its his fastest attack. Which Madara stopped it mid launch.

I dunno I'm not the creator of the series. But people do things in the manga that don't make sense. It could just be EE is more potent though if it connects which may or may not be the case.

So heathly itachi can't instantly put up his susanno to defend from lightning he sure as hell won't be able instantly put it up against hirudora. Since hirudora has less prep time and faster traveling time.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

SSMG said:


> People are misinformed all the time. Heck guy was misinformed about hirudora.. Unless you think kisame died from hirudora.
> Also its very possible once launched its his fastest attack. Which Madara stopped it mid launch.
> 
> I dunno I'm not the creator of the series. But people do things in the manga that don't make sense. It could just be EE is more potent though if it connects which may or may not be the case.
> ...



You assume gai was misinformed about  the statement that it was his fastest punch but is infact a direct statement on his own technique which he mastered over decades misinformed really now..he called it a one shot punch that can be called into question because its a comparative blanket statement because it may be a one shot on weaker shinobi..while not one higher level shinobi

Concession accepted..fact is hirudara would not be used against juubidara if gai,s simple punches and kicks were faster and stronger as it would make hirudara obsolete pointless and self damaging..

hirudara is not faster then lightning....only reason itachi put up the sussano was becuase he saw sasukes technique preparation...same as gais hirudara


----------



## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

Yeah it's a direct statement you're right but the direct feats override direct statements and the feats is Madara didn't or rather couldn't cut in between guys punches and kicks barrage but could in fact cut in on guys hirudora.  That makes the punches and kicks faster.

Also about his one hit kill statement it was made in reference to kisame who is a high level ninja so the statement was about high level ninja.

People have done things in the manga that didnt work after weve seen it doesnt work earlier so no thats not a concession on my part... Also he used it because his attacks were not connecting so he opted to use a range attack because Madara was backing up just out his attack range. 

Kakashi in part one could cut lightning wiyj raikiri and seven gated guy is faster than war arc kakashi who is faster than part one kakashi.. So yeah guy is faster than lightning. Also Sasuke prep for kirin was a few minutes as he needed to heat up the sky wait for the storm clouds and then gather the lightning into the dragon and then bring it down to the ground.. Wheres guy puts his hands together and does a hand seal which takes me a normal person less than two seconds to do... And guy is a supersonic ninja so its a safe bet to say he'll be much faster at it then me.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2014)

so gai learnt a technique in 7th gate that is slower than him just regularly punching 
worst he is misiniformed about his own technique. what an idiot he is

so u mean the only punch in that form that creates a vacuum of air is slower than any other punch he can do in that form. seriously why learn a technique that makes u slower.

i seriously cannot get that its ur logic, despite manga statement, DB and the fact that gai used it in battle. 

so he used it so he could loose the fight since in ur opinion his normal 7 gate attacks were fast enough??

lets completely forget the fact that the author the one whose name is on the manga entirely implied stated and emphaized the opposite 

if i can punch so fast i am creating an air wave its going to be faster than any punch that fails to create one. he is using speed to create the wave. why on earth doesnt he do that with regular punches.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 10, 2014)

Use the gates techniques isn't what harms his body. At the lower gates it is because you pushing the limits, but the sixth and above continually degrade the body pass its limits. He was using Hirudora as a finisher, he can't keep using 7th gate indefinitely. 

Gai wins easily, doesn't even break a sweat. he can just outlast Susanoo and Itachi and once he gets extremely tired and falls on the ground coughing up blood blitz Itachi and Elephant stomps him GG


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 10, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Use the gates techniques isn't what harms his body. At the lower gates it is because you pushing the limits, but the sixth and above continually degrade the body pass its limits. He was using Hirudora as a finisher, he can't keep using 7th gate indefinitely.
> 
> Gai wins easily, doesn't even break a sweat. he can just outlast Susanoo and Itachi and once he gets extremely tired and falls on the ground coughing up blood blitz Itachi and Elephant stomps him GG



So essentially its a draw since Guy dies after using evening elephant


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 10, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> so gai learnt a technique in 7th gate that is slower than him just regularly punching
> worst he is misiniformed about his own technique. what an idiot he is
> 
> so u mean the only punch in that form that creates a vacuum of air is slower than any other punch he can do in that form. seriously why learn a technique that makes u slower.
> ...



I know that feel bro my head hurt from listening to this.....they are essentially saying that hirudara is absolutely useless and obsolete.....gai trained decades to perfect the technique that is slower and weaker then his normal taijutsu..ck


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Yeah it's a direct statement you're right but the direct feats override direct statements and the feats is Madara didn't or rather couldn't cut in between guys punches and kicks barrage but could in fact cut in on guys hirudora.  That makes the punches and kicks faster.
> 
> Also about his one hit kill statement it was made in reference to kisame who is a high level ninja so the statement was about high level ninja.
> 
> ...



Your argument  is extremely weak madara was literally 5 feet from him ..so his attacks were not connecting so he uses a weaker and slower attack that will leave him severly injured and defenseless seems legit ..

Kakashi did not cut lightning...jesus lightning is massively hypersonic supersonic isnt close..


----------



## xenos5 (Dec 10, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> So essentially its a draw since Guy dies after using evening elephant



not really. it'd be a draw if evening elephant killed him at the same time it killed itachi like night gai but gai definitely has more time in the 8th gate (maybe up to a half hour) so gai dying after the fight is inconsequential.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 10, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Your argument  is extremely weak madara was literally 5 feet from him ..so his attacks were not connecting so he uses a weaker and slower attack that will leave him severly injured and defenseless seems legit ..
> 
> Kakashi did not cut lightning...jesus lightning is massively hypersonic supersonic isnt close..



My arugement is base guy beats itachi.
This post you're replying to was derived from yours and wanderers discussion.

But so his attack aren't connecting so he uses a ranged attack. That makes perfect sense to me. AT is only slower in execution not once the attack was launched. But it never got launched because Madara intercepted the execution. Tbh we don't know which one is stronger hirudora or his bare fists connecting. We do know however that EE bare fists connecting is stronger than the ranged version.. I simply brought it up as a possibility not an absolute.
And it left him so injured and defensless that he went onto almost kill Madara with a more painful version of gates.

And yes kakashi was stated to be able to cut lightning with raikiri. Which was part one kakashi who is slow as balls compared to war arc guy.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 11, 2014)

why use a range attack thats slower apparently at close range????

if it never got launched why do we see the tiger split in half? 

tbh we know which is stronger the character using the technique said so. character written by the creator of the manga


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 11, 2014)

SSMG said:


> My arugement is base guy beats itachi.
> This post you're replying to was derived from yours and wanderers discussion.
> 
> But so his attack aren't connecting so he uses a ranged attack. That makes perfect sense to me. AT is only slower in execution not once the attack was launched. But it never got launched because Madara intercepted the execution. Tbh we don't know which one is stronger hirudora or his bare fists connecting. We do know however that EE bare fists connecting is stronger than the ranged version.. I simply brought it up as a possibility not an absolute.
> ...



Base guy does not beat itachi...jesus dude comeon itachi goes into sussano and amaterasus him...

You dont use a ranged attack on a guy 5 feet from you when it will leave u helpless and severely injured not to mention when your normal attacks are faster more potent and thus are more likely to be effective..

Are you joking mate he was on the ground unconcious ,,,gated lee had to save him from the guodama or he would be dead read the manga..
blown away
blown away


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 11, 2014)

lol Sabre your arguing with a wall. just leave it. i have already given up. 

somehow a punch fast enough to create a wave of pressurized air is slower than one incapable of doing that. 

also note forming a seal is faster than throwing a punch, unless u think itachi can punch sasuke in cqc and sasuke wont see the punch. cuz sasuke couldnt see itachi hand seal speed.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 11, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Base guy does not beat itachi...jesus dude comeon itachi goes into sussano and amaterasus him...
> 
> You dont use a ranged attack on a guy 5 feet from you when it will leave u helpless and severely injured not to mention when your normal attacks are faster more potent and thus are more likely to be effective..
> 
> ...



Base guy can react and dodge amaterasu. Or use a lower level of gates to create a shroud if need be that's not base guy so meh.

You do if your close ranged attacks are not connecting.

Yeah and then guy went onto to use eigth gate which is more painful usage of gates. Or did you forget about that two-three chapters of guy continuing to fight?


----------



## SSMG (Dec 11, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> lol Sabre your arguing with a wall. just leave it. i have already given up.
> 
> somehow a punch fast enough to create a wave of pressurized air is slower than one incapable of doing that.
> 
> also note forming a seal is faster than throwing a punch, unless u think itachi can punch sasuke in cqc and sasuke wont see the punch. cuz sasuke couldnt see itachi hand seal speed.


Yes I do think itachi would still take longer to make the multiple seals required seals then to simply close his fist and extend his arm.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 11, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Base guy can react and dodge amaterasu. Or use a lower level of gates to create a shroud if need be that's not base guy so meh.
> 
> You do if your close ranged attacks are not connecting.
> 
> Yeah and then guy went onto to use eigth gate which is more painful usage of gates. Or did you forget about that two-three chapters of guy continuing to fight?



base guy has absolutely no feats that make a claim he can react to and dodge amaterasu....he has brilliant taijutsu in base but he is sure as hell not faster then v2 a in base.. gates are not a chakra shroud jesus..

Atleast concede that he was helpless and unconcious after using hirudara...and would have died had lee not saved him he came to after lee saved him ur being extremely stubborn mate..


----------



## SSMG (Dec 11, 2014)

Ei could react and dodge amaterasu at full speed.
Naruto could react and move from Eis top speed.
Naruto could not react and move out of the way of obitos touch. He needed to be saved twice(by guy both times mind you).
Guy can react and counter obitos touch in mid air. So therefore he can react and dodge as well if on a running surface.

That is how guy can react and dodge amaterasu.

Yeah he did need to be saved by Lee.. Never claimed he didn't.  I was just commenting on how he can still fight after using the seventh gate.
Also only reason why guy got so messed up is because the force of the at went off in his face which would never happen against itachi...


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 11, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Ei could react and dodge amaterasu at full speed.
> Naruto could react and move from Eis top speed.
> Naruto could not react and move out of the way of obitos touch. He needed to be saved twice(by guy both times mind you).
> Guy can react and counter obitos touch in mid air. So therefore he can react and dodge as well if on a running surface.
> ...



Gai can deal with him with his taijutsu skill but he does not have the speed and shunshin necessary to dodge amaterasu not to mention kakashi also saved naruto many times is he on kcms level?


----------



## SSMG (Dec 11, 2014)

I just showed you how he has the speed to deal and dodge amaterasu.  Guy has moved his legs to kick his numchuku to deal with Obitos kunai which Naruto could do. Thus he can use his legs to run out of the way.

And sure if that's what the feats suggest.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 11, 2014)

wait so SSMG you are saying itachi has the speed to hit sasuke a sharingan user a point blank range with a punch and sasuke wont see it at all?? hahahahaha  you are such a troll 

in any case gai the best informed person about his jutsu and not SSMG clearly stated hirudora>any other 7 gate attack in speed and power. Simply put madara blocked his fastest attack 


as to the match, as stated several times gai isnt immune to karasu bunshin which would auto genjutsu lol him. considering when powering up he will give itachi the best possible cover

now you talk about feats excessively. any feats of gai powering up getting rid of amaterasu??

cuz last i checked Ei had a shroud, he didnt just power up.  i wonder why though. he had to cut his arm off.

i mention feats because u have said time and time again yata is useless or V4 is useless it has no feats therefore hirudora breaks through 
so i say gai powering up has no feats of getting rid of any enton related jtusu, therefore him powerign up will have no purpose. amaterasu consumes him


----------



## Corax (Dec 11, 2014)

Itachi should win. I cant buy that gates release can blow away amaterasu flames. This jutsu isn't that bad. Jinchuriki cloak is at least super dense and is compressed of hight quality chakra. Well it can push away water,but even if for a second we make these feats equal (though pushing water in my opinion isnt as hard as chakra that can burn 7 days and cant be extinguished) he needs to enter 7-th gate for it ,and by that point he ll be seriously burned,as he needs several panels/seconds to enter 7-th gate.


----------



## SSMG (Dec 11, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> wait so SSMG you are saying itachi has the speed to hit sasuke a sharingan user a point blank range with a punch and sasuke wont see it at all?? hahahahaha  you are such a troll
> 
> in any case gai the best informed person about his jutsu and not SSMG clearly stated hirudora>any other 7 gate attack in speed and power. Simply put madara blocked his fastest attack
> 
> ...



I'm saying punches are faster than hand seals. Whatever conclusion you come to from that is you saying it... Not me.

Ive already explained why hirudora is his fastest punch and why it wasn't as effective against Madara. Reading comprehension must not be your forte. I guess too much salt in your eyes makes it hard to read eh.

Guy would simply lower his gates or go a higher level of gates to break him out of any non tsuki genjutsu.

We would need a feat of genjutsu being slow enough to hit guy to have what you're asking. But that won't ever happen. Its never been used against guy so you're asking for a feat that doesn't exist. You do realize we can only use feats that are comparable right? 


Ei failing to do something doesn't negate the fact that shourds have blocked amaterasu before.

Find a quote of me saying yatas mirror is useless? If that was the case Sasuke sword would have gone through it. But hirudora has much higher yeild then anything either of those two attacks have taken. Therefore it will bust them. 


Give me a feat of amaterasu of hitting guy and we can talk.


----------



## RockyIII (Dec 12, 2014)

Totsuka doesn't work against anything that can move. It's a huge chakra strain to bring out susanoo and totsuka. Kind of like ino mind control jutsu. IF you can restrain the target then it'll be safe enough to use. Vs orochimaru it was against a huge monster and vs nagato he was facing a paraplegic with no wheelchair. Itachi hardly has enough chakra to use susanoo. Gai knows Uchiha inside and out. He might win after a hard fought battle.


----------



## Icegaze (Dec 12, 2014)

SSMG said:


> I'm saying punches are faster than hand seals. Whatever conclusion you come to from that is you saying it... Not me.
> 
> Ive already explained why hirudora is his fastest punch and why it wasn't as effective against Madara. Reading comprehension must not be your forte. I guess too much salt in your eyes makes it hard to read eh.
> 
> ...



lol the same retarded arguments. 
You have zero proof KCM naruto was moving at full speed. so ur entire basis is wrong to assume base gai is even in the same speed tier. kakashi was able to save naruto as well. does that suddenly put him on KCm naruto speed tier. 

Bijuu cloak got rid of amaterasu, show me another cloak which has done that. go on ill wait. 

you can use all the retarded explanations you want you arent kishi!! if kishi says this attack is gai fastest attack then it is his fastest attack plain and fuckign simple. 

I got no salt in my eyes but retarded arguments are retarded. You are basically arguing with a claim kishi made, with zero basis. Or bias from said character, same way kisame said 6 gate is gai using air friction to create flames. you do not dispute that so why dispute this. 

or do u just hop on feats train when its convenient?

being able to push  juudara back a few feet doesnt suddenly put him on some god level. What basis do people have for that. what juudara did to minato juubito the guy who got hit by tobirama clones, Sm naruto etc  also did rip minato arm off casually that is. 

so gai being able to attack juudara with taijutsu something said to actually be effective really doesnt mean much. its impressive but thats just it.

we have seen time and time again much slower characters still being able to react to much much faster characters,

eg: kisame vs bee- bee shusnshin so quick sasuke cant even see him and goes to the other side of a mountain. bee unable to blitz kisame, the guy who went cqc with asuma and got hit 

saru reacting to juubito despite juubito  just bltizing tobirama and hashirama right before that. 

speed is far from everything. but well am done


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> lol the same retarded arguments.
> You have zero proof KCM naruto was moving at full speed. so ur entire basis is wrong to assume base gai is even in the same speed tier. kakashi was able to save naruto as well. does that suddenly put him on KCm naruto speed tier.
> 
> Bijuu cloak got rid of amaterasu, show me another cloak which has done that. go on ill wait.
> ...



I'll explain logic of Hirudora being his fastest punch. The punch itself is fastest, yes, but to make that punch you have to make hand seals. Juubidara put his staff in front of himself while Guy was making those hand seals. I hope you'll get it.

Also the fact he put Juubidara on defencive does put him in a god-speed tier. That feat surpasses everything Minato has ever done, BM or not. And i wanna add that SM Minato was blitzed in a moment by Juubidara.

And Tobirama taged Juubito, to whom BM Minato did nothing, because Tobirama is faster than BM Minato. His speed feats are better, although his Hiraishin is slower. 

And when did Sarutobi reacted to Juubito? Juubito blitzed him easily, as i remember. 

And do you think Kisame was all out with Asuma? And i dont remember Bee using his Body Flicker against Kisame.


----------

