# Wing Zero vs. Strike Freedom



## krullnar (Sep 8, 2008)

Who would win Wing Zero Custom from Gundam Wing or Strike Freedom from Gundam Seed Destiny. Also the pilots are Heero Yuy for the Wing Zero Custom and Kira Yamato for the Strike Freedom.


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## neodragzero (Sep 8, 2008)

Heero makes Kira and mech one with oblivion.


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## skiboydoggy (Sep 8, 2008)

One quick shot from the TBR equates to instantaneous death, especially if Zero System is activated.


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## Graham Aker (Sep 8, 2008)

Wing Zero.

-Zero System
-Heero Yuy being a damn better pilot than Kira


In b4 CEfags.


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## Jon Snow (Sep 8, 2008)

Kira activates SEED mode and Heero is dead.

True story.


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## Zetta (Sep 8, 2008)

The Strike Freedom is vastly outspecced by the Wing Zero.

The Strike Gundam is the CE equivalent of the Gundam RX-79 which for all intents and purposes wasn't that much of an improvement over a normal MS.

The new equivalent to Wing Zero would probably be Gundam Exia.


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## Graham Aker (Sep 8, 2008)

^No.

The Exia is a pure melee Gundam while the Zero doesn't have an area of specialization.


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## Zetta (Sep 8, 2008)

Graham Acre said:


> ^No.
> 
> The Exia is a pure melee Gundam while the Zero doesn't have an area of specialization.



I meant rather in the principle that both are more Super Robot than real robot, capable of beating vast platoons of MSes solo while the RX-79 and the Strike needed backup from their teammates/mobile base.

And making the comparisson between Heero and the guy who sounds like Light isn't hard. Still can't watch 00 without expecting him to pull out a Death Note.


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## Rice Ball (Sep 8, 2008)

Kira is a much superior pilot.

Heero is a good pilot, likely the best in that series, but hes nothing compaired to the Genetically Engineered super human.

With Seed mode, he go's into a natural state that is far superior than the Zero system. His reaction times would be insane compaired to Heero.

The only good the Zero system would do, is tell Heero hes going to die.


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## Fang (Sep 8, 2008)

Treize is better pilot then Heero.


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## krullnar (Sep 8, 2008)

The Strike Freedom isn't really based on the RX-78-2 lets not forget that the Strike Freedom has the Super Dragoons; Callidus multi-phase beam cannon in the chest; 2 Xiphias 3 rail cannons; 2 high energy beam rifles that can combine together; and METEOR oh and phase shift. Lets also not forget that Kira is a quasi newtype.


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 8, 2008)

i would say kira in seed mode is the better pilot, but he still loses.


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## Lina Inverse (Sep 8, 2008)

Let's look at facts shall we?

*Wing Zero*

_Info:_
- Piloted by Heero Yuy.
- Has a Nuclear Fusion Reactor for a power plant(WTF).
- Has the Zero System.
- Has a self-destruct system.
- Equipped with the Twin Buster Rifle, two Beam Sabers and two beam gatlings.
- Made from the immensly-tough Gundanium alloy.

_Accomplishments:_
- capable of destroying several mobile suits in a single shot with the Twin Buster Rifle.
- was able to destroy a space colony with a shot from the Twin Buster Rifle.
- Zero System enables the user to perceive and have a detailed 'map' of the battlefield, as well as possible outcomes(whether via winning or losing)

*Strike Freedom*

_Info:_
- Piloted by Kira Yamato(which can go to SEED mode).
- Has a N-Jammer Canceler.
- Has a Nuclear Fission Power Plant for a reactor.
- Equipped with a twin Hi-energy beam rifle, two beam sabers(which can be combined to form a dual-beam saber/lance), two shock cannons in the hips(which do not rely on beam technology as Phase Shift fields meant to block/bend beam projectiles was no use for the blasts from the cannon), two beam shields, an anti-ship beam cannon in the stomach area, and a DRAGOON system(8 DRAGOON units).
- Able to dock with the METEOR Weapons Platform unit.

_Accomplishments_
- able to shoot off the weapon and the camera unit of an enemy with a shot from the HE Rifle(at first it was assumed it was because of the Freedom, but Kira was able to do the same when he used the Strike Gundam and rescued Lacus in space before receiving the Strike Freedom). At one point in time he was able to shoot off the weapon, and camera set of Rau Le Creuset's mobile suit and slice it in two before Rau could shoot at Kira. He was also able to do the same on another mobile suit(not Rau's)on an earlier incident when he first arrived with the Freedom on the Archangel, but from a greated distance.
- SEED mode enhances Kira's reaction time and senses.
- Able to use ALL 13 beam/shooting weapons at the same time(the 8 DRAGOONS, the twin HE Rifle, the two shock cannons and the Anti-Ship cannon). Combined with Kira's SEED mode, he was able to disable a fleet of mobile suits within two minutes.

--------------------------------------------------

Thing is though, both mobile suits are extremely fast. They could be shooting at each other for all day and not even hit, even with the Twin Buster Rifle.

The thing that differenciates Heero from Kira though is that Heero relies heavily on his Twin Buster Rifle to destroy any mobile suit. All he needs is to just graze a mobile suit with it's beam and it's dead meat. Kira on the other hand relies on his pin-point accuracy for his shots, and not neccesarily on heavy firepower.

With that in mind, if Kira does manage to shoot off Heero's twin buster rifle, it may spell trouble for the Wing pilot IMO; if he decides to go close range and fight with Kira using his Beam Saber, Kira could just engage him with his own beam saber and at the same time use his DRAGOONS to fire from other directions.


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## skiboydoggy (Sep 8, 2008)

Coordinators are not fucking superhuman. They are peak human in all respects, completely different shit. George Glenn, the first coordinator was an Olympic medalist, Mensa member, and Mr Universe. Basically, they are Usain Bolts, not goddamned Flash.

Heero ACTUALLY has a claim to a superhuman mode in the Zero System. Electronic precognition pwns the shit out of SEED Mode, which is unsurprisingly, not precognition.


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## Azure Flame Fright (Sep 8, 2008)

Mad Titan said:


> Kira is a much superior pilot.
> 
> *Heero is a good pilot, likely the best in that series, but hes nothing compaired to the Genetically Engineered super human.*
> 
> ...



Heero's been stated to have superhuman reaction time back when he was piloting the Wing Gundam.


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## Karn of Zeon (Sep 9, 2008)

i agree with ms.AFK, heero can beat kira, coords are not superhuman


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## Zetta (Sep 9, 2008)

Kira also has claim to the title of Superhuman, considering he is the Perfect Coordinator.


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## skiboydoggy (Sep 9, 2008)

Ultimate Coordinator just means that no screwy shit happened to the genes in the womb, i.e. he went exactly as intended. He's no more superhuman than Micheal Phelps is. Plus, he has zero superhuman feats.

Domon is superhuman, Kira is not.


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## Rice Ball (Sep 9, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Ultimate Coordinator just means that no screwy shit happened to the genes in the womb, i.e. he went exactly as intended. He's no more superhuman than Micheal Phelps is. Plus, he has zero superhuman feats.
> 
> Domon is superhuman, Kira is not.



So having a reaction time better than any other human isn't a bonus?


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## Azure Flame Fright (Sep 9, 2008)

Mad Titan said:


> So having a reaction time better than any other human isn't a bonus?



Not when your opponent has it as well.


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## Rice Ball (Sep 9, 2008)

Azure Flame Kite said:


> Not when your opponent has it as well.



Heero might have this too, but it took him years of training to develope, while Kira was born with superior strength, stamina, intellect. He was naturally ahead of any normal human. Then he was exposed to combat and gained experience through fighting people with simular abilities.

Heero faught against Treize, who was one of the best pilots in the series, but only a human.
I imagine Treize and Heero would be the same as Mu La Flaga, the best a normal human could be, but held back by the lack of perfection in his genes.


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## neodragzero (Sep 9, 2008)

When exactly did Treize fight against a Wing Zero using Heero?


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## Rice Ball (Sep 9, 2008)

neodragzero said:


> When exactly did Treize fight against a Wing Zero using Heero?



he didn't 

I got confused with him and Milliardo Peacecraft


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## Zetta (Sep 9, 2008)

Treize is not a bad pilot though. He was keeping up with Wufei in an inferior MS.


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## neodragzero (Sep 9, 2008)

Mad Titan said:


> he didn't
> 
> I got confused with him and Milliardo Peacecraft



I thought that was the case. Treize and Heero don't exactly come up together at all of course. Anyway, no prob.


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## Zetta (Sep 9, 2008)

neodragzero said:


> I thought that was the case. Treize and Heero don't exactly come up together at all of course. Anyway, no prob.



Treize did give Heero the Epyon.


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## qks (Sep 9, 2008)

wing zero would win

the strike freedom actually stops in the middle of a fight to beam spam

being stationary=instant death


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## Lina Inverse (Sep 9, 2008)

qks said:


> wing zero would win
> 
> the strike freedom actually stops in the middle of a fight to beam spam
> 
> being stationary=instant death


If Kira's bloodlusted he won't just be standing on one spot.

He'll probably move while shooting his DRAGOONS from seperate directions.


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## Shuntensatsu (Sep 10, 2008)

Heero is 10000000000x the pilot that Kira is, he could beat him with a Leo suit.

Giving him Zero with the Zero System and its Buster Rifle makes this an absolute fucking joke.

Heero utterly destroys the worst main character in the history of Gundam.


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## Rice Ball (Sep 10, 2008)

Is your reasoning behind that your heero yaoi collection? 

I don't know how anyone can honestly vote for hero, hes much inferior, a single DRAGOON strike to one of the buster rifles ends any hope of that.


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## Lina Inverse (Sep 10, 2008)

Shuntensatsu said:


> Heero is 10000000000x the pilot that Kira is, he could beat him with a Leo suit.
> 
> Giving him Zero with the Zero System and its Buster Rifle makes this an absolute fucking joke.
> 
> Heero utterly destroys the worst main character in the history of Gundam.


Heero's good, but he's not THAT good that he can defeat something that can shoot from 9 different directions all at the same time, using JUST a Leo.

And as Mad Titan has said, Kira can just shoot off the TBR from the Zero's hand. Then what? He uses his beam saber? His Beam Gatlings? Both scenarios Kira just engages him with his own Beam Saber/beam lance and his HE Rifle while his shock cannons and his Anti-Ship beam cannon fire at Zero, while at the same time the 8 DRAGOONS fire from 8 other different directions.

Main problem with the Zero is aside from the TBR it has no other long-range offensive capabilities other than it's Beam Gatling, while the Strike Freedom has 13(8 DRAGOONS + 2 High-Energy Beam Rifles + 2 Shock Cannons + 1 Anti-Ship beam cannon).

EDIT:Waitaminute, this is the Wing Zero Custom(the one with the angel wings)? Cause doesn't it have no shield as compared to the Wing Zero?


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## skiboydoggy (Sep 10, 2008)

Come on, Heero is being completely underrated here while Coordinator is being wanked to an unnatural degree. Remember Rau Le Crueset? The one that Kira was still afraid of in GSD? The one that would have schooled Kira if not for PIS?

He's NOT a Coordinator. He's a clone of some guy who considered himself perfect, who was NOT a Coordinator.

What this means is that even in CEverse, it's not impossible for a Natural to pass off as Coordinator, what more in other timelines, where the pilots have actual superhuman feats?

On top of that, Heero has the Zero System, which grants him a sort of precognition, while Kira is still stuck with reacting to attacks. Heero is fundamentally superior in that aspect. Not only that, Gundarium in the Wing series have shown resistance to beam attacks, while the Strike Freedom has none of that.


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## Piekage (Sep 10, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Come on, Heero is being completely underrated here while Coordinator is being wanked to an unnatural degree. Remember Rau Le Crueset? The one that Kira was still afraid of in GSD? The one that would have schooled Kira if not for PIS?
> 
> He's NOT a Coordinator. He's a clone of some guy who considered himself perfect, who was NOT a Coordinator.
> 
> ...



Rau wasn't exactly a Natural either, wasn't born naturally, able of piloting a ZAFT mobile suit, and probably wouldn't have been in the ZAFT military in the first place, considering how racist ZAFT was.

Even if he were a Natural, he and Mwu are clearly the only exceptions (that I know of, never read Astray) given their amazing spacial awareness. And IIRC Providence was the superior mobile suit.

Heero's precog isn't that defining a factor, since he still had trouble with Wu Fei in Endless Waltz, who lacked the Zero System. Gundanium's not that resist to beam fire, as Endless Waltz and the series illustrated.


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## skiboydoggy (Sep 10, 2008)

Piekage said:


> Rau wasn't exactly a Natural either, wasn't born naturally, able of piloting a ZAFT mobile suit, and probably wouldn't have been in the ZAFT military in the first place, considering how racist ZAFT was.
> 
> Even if he were a Natural, he and Mwu are clearly the only exceptions (that I know of, never read Astray) given their amazing spacial awareness. And IIRC Providence was the superior mobile suit.
> 
> Heero's precog isn't that defining a factor, since he still had trouble with Wu Fei in Endless Waltz, who lacked the Zero System. Gundanium's not that resist to beam fire, as Endless Waltz and the series illustrated.



I never said Rau was a Natural, but he's the clone of a Natural who managed to pass off as a Coordinator. He got into the ZAFT Military by managing to convince everyone else he was in fact a Coordinator, but once again, he's not. The Providence was also considered an equal suit to the Freedom, and in fact Freedom packed far more firepower, while Providence was stuck with very basic gear apart from the DRAGOONs. Not even Hi-MAT.

Besides, most of a Coordinator's superb traits are "used up" to even move a Gundam properly.

And Astray has Lowe Guele, who I am completely convinced could school Kira if they were given equal suits.

The Zero System's precog still makes Heero _fundamentally_ superior to Kira even if everything else was equal. Also, ever considered that Wu Fei is a better pilot than Kira? Thought not. And while Gundanium may not be very resistant to beam weapons, it's still a plus point for the Wing, compared to the Strike Freedom, which has to rely completely on beam shields which would just blow up in his face if he tried to block a TBR shot.

Let's summarise.

Base Heero (superhuman) > Base Kira (human).
Zero System > SEED Mode.
TBR > Beam Spam.
"Feather" wings that are actual heat resistant apogee motors > Beam shields + Hi-MAT.
Nuclear Fusion Reactor > Nuclear Fission Reactor.

In conclusion: Wing Zero + Heero > Strike Freedom + Kira.

How the battle would go:
Heero activates Zero System and flies circles around Kira before unleashing a fully charged TBR at Kira. Kira blocks with beam shields, Kira fails.

Kira has what, zero good feats against ace pilots in equal suits? He had ONE fight against another ace in an equal suit, and he got schooled.


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## Piekage (Sep 11, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> I never said Rau was a Natural, but he's the clone of a Natural who managed to pass off as a Coordinator. He got into the ZAFT Military by managing to convince everyone else he was in fact a Coordinator, but once again, he's not. The Providence was also considered an equal suit to the Freedom, and in fact Freedom packed far more firepower, while Providence was stuck with very basic gear apart from the DRAGOONs. Not even Hi-MAT.


Actually you did, and I quote..





> What this means is that even in CEverse, *it's not impossible for a Natural to pass off as Coordinator*, what more in other timelines, where the pilots have actual superhuman feats?


Rau is the only one we know of to fit this scenario. And he'd have to be at least similar to a coordinator. It's shown/stated multiple times that ZAFT build mobile suits cannot be piloted by coordinators because Coordinators have better reaction times then Naturals. The original 5 gundams all had to be reprogrammed in SEED because the machines were too slow for them to pilot to the best of their abilities.

I doubt Rau could hide something like being a Natural from the military, given that physical exams are expected.


skiboydoggy said:


> Besides, most of a Coordinator's superb traits are "used up" to even move a Gundam properly.


Examples?


skiboydoggy said:


> And Astray has Lowe Guele, who I am completely convinced could school Kira if they were given equal suits.


Wouldn't know.


skiboydoggy said:


> The Zero System's precog still makes Heero _fundamentally_ superior to Kira even if everything else was equal. Also, ever considered that Wu Fei is a better pilot than Kira? Thought not. And while Gundanium may not be very resistant to beam weapons, it's still a plus point for the Wing, compared to the Strike Freedom, which has to rely completely on beam shields which would just blow up in his face if he tried to block a TBR shot.


Considering the only opponents Wu Fei ever fights are fodder or Trieze (who wanted to die IIRC), he's not exactly that impressive. Why would Kira stand around and try to tank a TRB shot?



skiboydoggy said:


> Let's summarise.
> 
> Base Heero (superhuman) > Base Kira (human).
> Zero System > SEED Mode.
> ...


Seems rather biased. The only fights were the Zero System gave a tremendous advantage were against fodder suits that don't really compare to a gundam, even without the ZS. Against Zechs, Heero was pretty even, granted Zech's had the ZS too. Against Wu Fei, again pretty even.

Catherine (that weird blonde chick) used the Zero System to control Mobile Dolls, and even then the Wing boys slaughtered them. What have those heat wings actually done for him? How is Wing Zero's reactor superior? Why does it even matter?


skiboydoggy said:


> How the battle would go:
> Heero activates Zero System and flies circles around Kira before unleashing a fully charged TBR at Kira. Kira blocks with beam shields, Kira fails.


Or, while Heero whips out his trusty TBR, Kira tears him apart with Dragoons.


skiboydoggy said:


> Kira has what, zero good feats against ace pilots in equal suits? He had ONE fight against another ace in an equal suit, and he got schooled.



The entire first half of SEED, he beat 4 trained soldiers in equal suits often simultaneously. Backed up only by a plane most of the time. All of which were aces. Fought ( and won) in unfavorable conditions in the desert and underwater, against suits designed for those environments, piloted by seasoned pilots with more experience then Kira. Second half of SEED, fought off the druggies, stopped only because he didn't want to kill.

Seems to me like your underestimating Kira. What defense does Heero have against Dragoons? What's to stop Kira from shooting the TBR down the second he sees it? Considering how many times it's happened before, you can't say it's an impossibility. And Kira's mighty accurate, considering how many people he could easily kill, but doesn't. How many shots he fires, but none are fatal.


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## skiboydoggy (Sep 11, 2008)

Piekage said:


> Actually you did, and I quote..
> Rau is the only one we know of to fit this scenario. And he'd have to be at least similar to a coordinator. It's shown/stated multiple times that ZAFT build mobile suits cannot be piloted by coordinators because Coordinators have better reaction times then Naturals. The original 5 gundams all had to be reprogrammed in SEED because the machines were too slow for them to pilot to the best of their abilities.



Hoory for misinterpreting. Rau, although not a Natural, still represents the peak of Natural ability. What this means is that a Natural, could in fact, match a Coordinator. What this means is that a Coordinator is not superhuman. Nowhere near that, actually.



> I doubt Rau could hide something like being a Natural from the military, given that physical exams are expected.



Erm... Coordinators are just genetically modified humans while Naturals are non-GM humans. Putting them both through a DNA test would reveal that they are both homo sapiens, nothing more.



> Examples?



This takes several assumptions on my part, but the fact that Naturals with a Natural use OS can take on Coordinators using the ZAFT OS pretty much seals it for me. For example, if both were using the Psychoframe from CE, I have no doubt that Mwu would school most of ZAFT.



> Wouldn't know.



You should give Astray a try. Much better than a main series.



> Considering the only opponents Wu Fei ever fights are fodder or Trieze (who wanted to die IIRC), he's not exactly that impressive. Why would Kira stand around and try to tank a TRB shot?



That just makes his skill unquantifiable, not unimpressive. And Kira would tank a TBR because that's what he does. He likes _barely_ dodging attacks... Which would make him blow up from a TBR shot.



> Seems rather biased. The only fights were the Zero System gave a tremendous advantage were against fodder suits that don't really compare to a gundam, even without the ZS. Against Zechs, Heero was pretty even, granted Zech's had the ZS too. Against Wu Fei, again pretty even.



Wu Fei is pretty much an outlier, the Zero System has been proven to give Heero a massive advantage.



> Catherine (that weird blonde chick) used the Zero System to control Mobile Dolls, and even then the Wing boys slaughtered them. What have those heat wings actually done for him? How is Wing Zero's reactor superior? Why does it even matter?



Mobile Dolls are not Mobile Suits, there's no way to process data from an entire MD squad properly. And superior reactor = superior output. Basically means TBR > Beamspam.



> Or, while Heero whips out his trusty TBR, Kira tears him apart with Dragoons.



Yeah right, not against a Zero System equipped unit. All Kira can try to do with the Dragoons is make a beam web to pin down the Wing Zero. Which really doesn't matter when all Heero needs to do is to pump a constant stream of beam gattling to rape Kira, especially since he's probably liable to assume they are standard vulcans and try to tank them with Phase Shift.



> The entire first half of SEED, he beat 4 trained soldiers in equal suits often simultaneously. Backed up only by a plane most of the time. All of which were aces. Fought ( and won) in unfavorable conditions in the desert and underwater, against suits designed for those environments, piloted by seasoned pilots with more experience then Kira. Second half of SEED, fought off the druggies, stopped only because he didn't want to kill.



And we all know his skill dropped when he got the Freedom. Seriously though, the only one I would consider any good is Athrun, and considering that he has quite a number of feats over Kira, such as actually being able to shoot, it leads me to believe he was holding back until Blitz got blown up.



> Seems to me like your underestimating Kira. What defense does Heero have against Dragoons? What's to stop Kira from shooting the TBR down the second he sees it? Considering how many times it's happened before, you can't say it's an impossibility. And Kira's mighty accurate, considering how many people he could easily kill, but doesn't. How many shots he fires, but none are fatal.



What's to stop Heero from using the beam gattling the moment Kira whips out his rifle?


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## Zetta (Sep 11, 2008)

Rau and Mwu were actually supposed to be newtypes.

Then again, if those are newtypes nowadays... then Amuro would piss his way through CE.


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## Rice Ball (Sep 11, 2008)

Amuro > Kira > heero


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## Zetta (Sep 11, 2008)

Looks like a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and needs a donkey punch from Noah Bright every now and then but he's not the kind of person you want standing infront of you in multi-ton walking deathmachine.


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## Zetta (Sep 11, 2008)

Mad Titan said:


> > Amuro





Oh GOD yes.


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## lambda (Sep 11, 2008)

So what are those feats that put Heero above Kira again? Y'know, stuff that actually matters instead of blanket statements like "Heero is supehuman lulz". Kira has deflected beam by slashing away at them, which makes his reaction time ridiculous and his MS is fast enough to go from outer space to the lower earth atmosphere in seconds, so dodging the TBR would be fairly easy.

And the whole beam gatling rape is ridiculous for the same reason. Kira has been waltzing through beam spam from multiple sources with ease time and time again, what the heck would constant fire from one point would do to him?That and his beam shield.

Kira has all the advantadges that matters, superior mobility , dead-on accuracy and better distributed firepower, since one well-placed shot from his DRAGOON would already be enough to do the trick and the ZERO system doesn't make Wing Zero untouchable.




Mad Titan said:


> > Amuro


Yes, of course.The fact that since A Baoa Qu Char always lost against Amuro despite always piloting better machines than him is unquestionable proof that he is better than the White Devil.


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## Piekage (Sep 11, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Hoory for misinterpreting. Rau, although not a Natural, still represents the peak of Natural ability. What this means is that a Natural, could in fact, match a Coordinator. What this means is that a Coordinator is not superhuman. Nowhere near that, actually.


Isn't the peak of Natural ability a Coordinator?


skiboydoggy said:


> Erm... Coordinators are just genetically modified humans while Naturals are non-GM humans. Putting them both through a DNA test would reveal that they are both homo sapiens, nothing more.


I was actaully refering not only to DNA, but to training, such as exercise and such. Nonetheless, you have a point.


skiboydoggy said:


> This takes several assumptions on my part, but the fact that Naturals with a Natural use OS can take on Coordinators using the ZAFT OS pretty much seals it for me. For example, if both were using the Psychoframe from CE, I have no doubt that Mwu would school most of ZAFT.


I don't recall a Coordinator vs. a Natural match up to compare this with. The only times I recall seeing Coordinator vs Natural, the Naturals held the numerical advantage. If you could point out an example that'd be groovy.

And even so, it's not a blanket statement, because the main characters of SEED and Destiny are clear exceptions and don't seem applicable to this situation. Mwu would no doubt school most of ZAFT, but he's definitely peak human in some regard, being the only one that Natural that can use funnels/Dragoons.



skiboydoggy said:


> You should give Astray a try. Much better than a main series.


I'll do that then, assuming I can find it. Which one should I start with? I here there's like 5 different versions.


skiboydoggy said:


> That just makes his skill unquantifiable, not unimpressive. And Kira would tank a TBR because that's what he does. He likes _barely_ dodging attacks... Which would make him blow up from a TBR shot.


Poor choice of words on my part. Wu Fei's impressive, but as you said, unquantifiable.

Kira tanking TBR seems, off to me. I'd like to think that he'd move out the way, seeing a gun that big, but he does have a tendency to try and take stuff on. Assuming he's too stupid to move, then yeah he's fucked.


skiboydoggy said:


> Wu Fei is pretty much an outlier, the Zero System has been proven to give Heero a massive advantage.


Against who though? The only real challenges Heero ever encounters in Wing are other Gundams and Tallegesse. And a crapload of suits that one time. Against fodder, he'd have probably beat them without the ZS, given how superior his suit is. Against other Gundams it's been a relatively even fight.


skiboydoggy said:


> Mobile Dolls are not Mobile Suits, there's no way to process data from an entire MD squad properly. And superior reactor = superior output. Basically means TBR > Beamspam.


I see your point about the reactor, but how is Heero's better?



skiboydoggy said:


> Yeah right, not against a Zero System equipped unit. All Kira can try to do with the Dragoons is make a beam web to pin down the Wing Zero. Which really doesn't matter when all Heero needs to do is to pump a constant stream of beam gattling to rape Kira, especially since he's probably liable to assume they are standard vulcans and try to tank them with Phase Shift.


How so? Wu Fei proved that the Zero System isn't infallible. Kira has shown a sufficient amount of reflexes that he's capable of dodging Vulcans and a TBR shot.SEED mode further increases his reflexes and info processing skills. He doesn't just stand around and try to tank everything that comes his way either. 

Heero has no experience fighting Dragoons/Funnels, so he'd be dodging for quite a bit until he gets the hang of them. 


skiboydoggy said:


> And we all know his skill dropped when he got the Freedom. Seriously though, the only one I would consider any good is Athrun, and considering that he has quite a number of feats over Kira, such as actually being able to shoot, it leads me to believe he was holding back until Blitz got blown up.


I wouldn't consider it a skill drop, just that he wasn't bloodlusted as he was the entire first half of the series. I blame Lacus. Although I consider Athrun better (when he has his head right), the fact that Kira has held Athrun and his team back, with no formal training at all, about 5 times says something. He was starting to beat them in the final few battles too, until Athrun got bloodlusted.


skiboydoggy said:


> What's to stop Heero from using the beam gattling the moment Kira whips out his rifle?


Nothing. But that doesn't mean Kira's going to just sit there either.


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## Id (Sep 11, 2008)

Coordinators processes data insanely fast when they enter seed mode, it?s the reason why they are often compared to the Zero system induced pilot. What gives Kira the advantage, are those psychic talents (Newtype abilities) he started to develop. 

In regards to gundamns, other then the zero system (which Hero needs to compete with Kira Seed Mode + Newtype abilities). The Dragoon system posses a vary big threat, seeing as it can shoot from multiple angles.


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## FireEel (Sep 12, 2008)

I assumed Heero had trouble with Wufei in Endless Waltz only cause the Wing Zero Custom was inferior to the Wing Zero?

Also Heero wasn't trying to seriously fight Wufei, nor was he using the Twin Buster Rifles or the zero system offensively.

Lastly, the Nataku gundam is stronger than Wing Zero Custom in melee fighting. Even when Zechs was using the Wing Zero against Wufei much earlier on, he exclaimed that unless he went all out, there was no way he could stand a chance.


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## Rice Ball (Sep 12, 2008)

Wing Zero Custom doesn't have a melee shield right?
He'd not last long against Kira


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## Lina Inverse (Sep 12, 2008)

I thought the outer wings were the shields?


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## Graham Aker (Sep 12, 2008)

Wing Zero has a shield. Not to mention, it's body itself is a shield. 

Gundanium alloy is strong enough to resist a shot from the twin buster rifle. When Quatre fired one at Heero in the Mercurius, intending to destroy it and the colony, the Mercurius was merely blasted inside the colony. And it took two shots from the TBR to destroy the Vayette.
The Virgo's beam weapons are as powerful as the Wing's Buster Rifle, yet repeated shots on Gundams had hardly any effect. The Wing's BR is more powerful than any MS weapon in the CEverse.
The DRAGOONS, chest canon and beam rifle don't pack enough power to damage a mobile suit made out of Gundanium. Maybe the beam saber, but the the Wing Zero's shield is extremely tough. 

The S. Freedom is not faster than the ZW. It's Wings of Light is much more similar to the Stargazer than the Destiny, which gives it great speed in battle, where the MS has no fixed direction. The S. Freedom and Stargazer's WoL was designed for travelling purposes. Think about it, if the S. Freedom was really that fast, it'd have blitz the Legend which is a slow ass Gundam. Can't say which is faster between the Zero and S. Freedom though. Both being from different universes, really makes it hard. Anyway...

Also to take note, the DRAGOONS need to re-dock to recharge it's power, so it won't always be there to help the S. Freedom. Not that it'll be of much help in this fight really, as the Zero System can easily send data to Heero about the flight patterns of the DRAGOONS

And the Zero System is a super computer, it can process loads of information in so very little time it's not going to lose against the human brain, ultimate coordinator or not. Not to mention, Kira's moves are very predictable(reference: Shin Asuka studying Kira). If Shinn was able to understand Kira's fighting style, the Zero should have no problems.

For pilots, Kira's dancing through beam fire looked impressive, but if one takes into account the person/s firing those beams, they become less than impressive feats. Splitting beam fire though... but he still gets hit with the right shot. Kira is not untouchable. Shinn's proved it, Rey's proved it, Athrun's proved it. And Rau proved it.

As for Heero, from what I can remember on my rewatch, other than easily taking out Leo's in a Leo suit, fighting against the Altron in said suit, while suggesting to Wufei to "press the button", and only receiving a severed arm, and a graze on the chest . 
He fought Zechs, who was using the more nimble Tallgeese, for 3 hours straight using the Heavyarms with an injury. Which was also the first time he had to pilot the Heavyarms. 
Mastered the Mercurius and is unmatched by any Oz pilot according to Lady Une. And unlike Kira, he's very resourceful, as seen when he used the snow to hide himself from the Tallgeese's heat sensors, among others. 

Kira stopped using his head when he got the Freedom. It didn't even occur to him to fuck the Forbidden's beam deflectors with his beam saber, which is what Athrun did, instead he kept using his Plasma canons, pointlessly.


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