# Kakuzu vs. Tsunade



## Ryuzaki (May 27, 2015)

Distance: 25 meters
Location: VotE
Restrictions: None
Mindset: IC w/Intent to Kill
Knowledge: Basic (limited to only names and affiliations)

Who wins?


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## RBL (May 27, 2015)

Kakuzu survived the first, he also has a lot of hearts, he has more arsenal than tsunade.

I think Kakuzu should be able to win mid-high diff.


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Tsunade isn't surving Kakuzu's elemental blasts and she is not putting down him either with a single hit. Kakuzu mid/high diff imo.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

you should have had polls. I am curious as to what everyone thinks
my opinion is she murders him. mid diff at the most

kakuzu elemental attacks cant kill her even slightly. not when she is slapping away madara katon's. There is zero evidence to suggest his blasts can do more damage than 2 susanoo swords through her gut. not to mention she had already received previous damage

kakuzu blasts were reacted to by the likes of shikamaru. 

Tsunade summons katsuyu and the hearts take an acid bath. the blasts would do next to nothing to katsuyu


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## Bonly (May 27, 2015)

Tsunade walks to Kakuzu and smashy smashy the fuck outta him


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Tsunade is not slapping away Katon: Zukokku.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

why not? are you saying its a stronger attack than madara uchiha katon. you know the guy famous for his katon and who is horrible leaps and bounds and waaay more leaps above kakuzu


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Yeah it is stronger than the one Madara used.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

any proof its stronger than what madara used? btw the jutsu madara used is the same jutsu that sasuke used to prep kirin

please read up on that jutsu then compare it to kakuzu katon and do get back to me. i am curious as to what you would find


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## Grimsley (May 27, 2015)

Tsunade should win this with mid difficulty. Non of his elemental attacks are gonna work if Tsunade can tank Madara's. 

His Doton hardening technique, a B rank technique, is not going to defend him from her strength. And if he goes close combat (like he did in the manga with kakashi) Tsunade will tear his strings apart and beat him down until all his masks get destroyed.


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Zukokku is a lot bigger.


edit. holy fuck now NBD is swarming with Tsunade wankers...


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Zukokku is a lot bigger.
> 
> 
> edit. holy fuck now NBD is swarming with Tsunade wankers...



i like how you talk. tbh. normally ill be fine with it. dont mind the little jabs. so promise if i reply in kind you dont go on reporting me. you cool with that? eh wanker? 

AoE of jutsu doesnt determine power of the jutsu. am sure a brilliant troll like yourself should know that

atusyi much bigger AoE than futon rasengan. however which do you think is stronger?


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## Grimsley (May 27, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Zukokku is a lot bigger.
> 
> 
> edit. holy fuck now NBD is swarming with Tsunade wankers...



NBD has been swarming with Tsunade haters since the dawn of time. Only now that the manga has ended have people started having balanced views of her feats. 

The fact is Kakuzu is the one being wanked here and you are a prime example. Kishi wiped Kakuzu off in the most shittest way possible and then put the nail in the coffin when he had some cloud ninjas off panel him; there must be a reason to why he was portrayed that way right? 

Try not to throw your dummy out the pram just because people disagree with you.


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## RBL (May 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i like how you talk. tbh. normally ill be fine with it. dont mind the little jabs. so promise *if i reply in kind you dont go on reporting me.* you cool with that? eh wanker?
> 
> AoE of jutsu doesnt determine power of the jutsu. am sure a brilliant troll like yourself should know that
> 
> atusyi much bigger AoE than futon rasengan. however which do you think is stronger?



is that why you got banned the other time ? 

OT: Yeah there are a lot of tsunade wankers in this forum, and she is not even a good fighter tbh, unlike Gai  that deserves to be wanked, or itachi.

Kakuzu is a very smart fighter, probably faster than tsunade as well, and he has more variety in jutsus too.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> is that why you got banned the other time ?
> 
> OT: Yeah there are a lot of tsunade wankers in this forum, and she is not even a good fighter tbh, unlike Gai  that deserves to be wanked, or itachi.
> 
> Kakuzu is a very smart fighter, probably faster than tsunade as well, and he has more variety in jutsus too.



lol yup. am fine with trash talk. some cant handle it and then call me mean and all that. so am cool with what he wrote. so long as when i reply the same way he dont bitch. 

yh and you being the biggest lee wanker, you are clearly an unbiased individual right. 

yes he got elemental spam thats irrelevant against tsunade. good for him


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> AoE of jutsu doesnt determine power of the jutsu.




Katon: Goryuuka is a B-rank Katon. Katon: Zukokku is a B-rank boosted by a Fuuton Atsugai. How is it not stronger?


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Katon: Goryuuka is a B-rank Katon. Katon: Zukokku is a B-rank boosted by a Fuuton Atsugai. How is not stronger?



we was only talking about zukokku vs goryuuka. 

fuuton boosted katon would be stronger. but considering how easily she batted 5 away. unless u want to tell me fuuton boost would more than 5 times boost its power it would be next to irrelevant against tsunade


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## RBL (May 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol yup. am fine with trash talk. some cant handle it and then call me mean and all that. so am cool with what he wrote. so long as when i reply the same way he dont bitch.
> 
> yh and you being the biggest lee wanker, you are clearly an unbiased individual right.
> 
> yes he got elemental spam thats irrelevant against tsunade. good for him



 i've been banned like 3 times already because of trash-talking , i just thought u were the 'prude' kind of poster.

i'm yeah i'm Lee biggest wanker 

OT: how do you visualize tsunade winning?.


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## Grimsley (May 27, 2015)

When in this manga have we ever actually seen a Katon jutsu actually severely damage someone?


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> The fact is Kakuzu is the one being wanked here and you are a prime example



Hmm, let's see. Kakuzu already has his weird string body which allows him to take blunt damage well and on top of it a Ninjutsu that boosts his durability even further. He is better in Taijutsu and faster (not drastically but still). 

Tell me, what is Tsunade going to do when Kakuzu catches her by the throat with Jiongu? She has no way to cut the strings and Kakuzu is free to blast her from existence with multiple Katons, Fuutons and Raitons.


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## Jad (May 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> any proof its stronger than what madara used? btw the jutsu madara used is the same jutsu that sasuke used to prep kirin
> 
> please read up on that jutsu then compare it to kakuzu katon and do get back to me. i am curious as to what you would find



You can't possibly compare Kakuzu's Katon technique to Madara's? They are shaped completely differently. One is just like normal fire that spreads out (no weight, no solidity to them). It's very natural. Madara's chakra shaped his like Sasuke's that in canon, have shown to break through concrete, and as result have weight to them. Surprise, surprise, Kishi choose that SAME technique to allow Tsunade to bat them down, the SAME technique that has shown that it holds weight.

That, and you can't believe Madara's Katon technique was powerful? He used it when half his soul was being ripped out of his body. That Katon technique he used against the Kage's that Tsunade back handed, out all the others he has used, was significantly smaller - way smaller than all his others. Even the one Mei blocked with her Water technique was way bigger than the one Madara used against Tsunade. Sasuke used bigger Flaming Dragon Bullets than Madara. It was in no way comparable to his other Katon techniques. We've seen Madara's serious Katons before - he can cover an entire battlefield.

Tsunade is lucky to have Katsuya by her side if she has it summoned. If she is hit with Kakuzu's Katon version. If she is doused with the flames, she has no way of removing them unless Katsuya is there to smother the flames. It will keep burning her entire body- blinding her, and leaving Kakuzu free room to strike however and wherever he pleases. That is in the event she does get hit, which frankly, seems to be the popular opinion with Tsunade debates; "Take the hits, and heal after"

This post is just specifically talking about if the technique hits her and the resultant impact. It's up for debate if she avoids it completely or not.


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## Grimsley (May 27, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Hmm, let's see. Kakuzu already has his weird string body which allows him to take blunt damage well and on top of it a Ninjutsu that boosts his durability even further. He is better in Taijutsu and faster (not drastically but still).
> 
> Tell me, what is Tsunade going to do when Kakuzu catches her by the throat with Jiongu? She has no way to cut the strings and Kakuzu is free to blast her from existence with multiple Katons, Fuutons and Raitons.



Better in taijutsu how do you measure that when Tsunade has a 5 in taijutsu and Kakuzu has 4 in the databook? He was overpowering Kakashi because of strength before you use that as an example. 

If she got caught by that she would just reel him in and smash his face in like she did with Orochimaru and his tongue? This woman got impaled in the abdomen by a huge sword yet still reacted, her getting chocked for a few seconds is not gonna matter, in fact if Kakuzu were to do that he'd die. Close combat with Tsunade is suicide, and if she chooses not to let go of his strings she'll just continue beating him to a pulp ala Sakura reeling in Sasori.


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## Kai (May 27, 2015)

If Kakuzu foolishly tries to hold Tsunade, he's not holding her for long. His physical strength can't compare to hers and she'll physically rip open any grip placed on her. That means instead of a choke scenario, Tsunade will use Kakuzu's tendrils to swing him around and reel him into a full power punch.

Byakugo tanks any and all of Kakuzu's elemental combinations, much to his awe. Now, if Tsunade grabs a hold of Kakuzu it's essentially over. Her stamina and endurance feats are also well above Kakuzu's.


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> Better in taijutsu how do you measure that when Tsunade has a 5 in taijutsu and Kakuzu has 4 in the databook?


She hasn't shown any impressive Taijutsu skill in the manga. She is average or slightly better. Unreliable 5 rating comes from her monstrous strength. 


> He was overpowering Kakashi because of strength before you use that as an example.


Kakashi is very skilled in Taijutsu and has a Sharingan and Kakuzu was going toe to toe with him. Kakuzu is at least some what above Tsunade in skill.


> If she got caught by that she would just reel him in and smash his face in like she did with Orochimaru and his tongue?


And this requires her to stand still which gives an opening for Kakuzu to blow her away.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

> Jad said:
> 
> 
> > You can't possibly compare Kakuzu's Katon technique to Madara's? They are shaped completely differently. One is just like normal fire that spreads out (no weight, no solidity to them). It's very natural. Madara's chakra shaped his like Sasuke's that in canon, have shown to break through concrete, and as result have weight to them. Surprise, surprise, Kishi choose that SAME technique to allow Tsunade to bat them down, the SAME technique that has shown that it holds weight.
> ...


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Kai said:


> Byakugo tanks any and all of Kakuzu's elemental combinations



I'd love to see Tsunade getting up immediately after taking Raiton: Gian that almost burned Kakashi's (while using Raikiri) hands off. Do I need to remind you what Sasuke's much inferior Chidori Nagashi did to Naruto and Sai?

While Tsunade is on the ground Kakuzu keeps blasting her until there is nothing left. Byakugo is not infinite.


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## Grimsley (May 27, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> She hasn't shown any impressive Taijutsu skill in the manga. She is average or slightly better. Unreliable 5 rating comes from her monstrous strength.
> 
> Kakashi is very skilled in Taijutsu and has a Sharingan and Kakuzu was going toe to toe with him. Kakuzu is at least some what above Tsunade in skill.
> 
> And this requires her to stand still which gives an opening for Kakuzu to blow her away.



1. Yes but Kishi has said she has a 5, sorry bro but Kishi > you. If strength correlates to taijutsu stats than Kisame would have a 5 in taijutsu because his strength is 5 but he has a 4.5 in taijutsu 

2. Doesn't mean anything here when we've seen characters go toe to toe against sharingan fighters before in cqc. 

3. So he attempts to choke her despite me just telling you she could easily reel him like she did to Orochimaru, and then blow her away despite the fact that we've seen her withstand Madara's katon jutsus with Byakogou. Ok.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Hmm, let's see. Kakuzu already has his weird string body which allows him to take blunt damage well and on top of it a Ninjutsu that boosts his durability even further. He is better in Taijutsu and faster (not drastically but still).
> 
> Tell me, what is Tsunade going to do when Kakuzu catches her by the throat with Jiongu? She has no way to cut the strings and Kakuzu is free to blast her from existence with multiple Katons, Fuutons and Raitons.



any proof his stringy body allows him to take blunt force. orochiamaru got an elastic body. it doesn't suddenly make him immune. kakuzu face isn't stringy is it?

he isn't better in taijutsu. yes he has shown more feats. Mei has shown less feats than konohamaru in cqc does that mean he can take her in hand to hand?

where feats lack. ratings come in handy 

kakuzu is going to hold her with some strings. . unless someone has forgetten, tsunade got medical scalpels. she cuts through the strings with no difficulty at all 

or she just reels him in and breaks him.


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## Veracity (May 27, 2015)

Tsunade would dominate kakuzu without much problems tbh. She pretty much regenerates from everything he throws and runs through his Justu via super enhanced legend strength and chakra to the feet tech. A single hit would absolutely obliterate his Domu given what she did to Ribcage Sussano and his limited Domu is.

His fire Justu clings to Tsuande just as long Madaras Katon did in canon. There is no actually proof that his Katon would be stronger than Madaras regardless.  Not like she has doesn't have other ways around it anyway. AOE doesn't equal more power, especially when one is shape manipulated giving it blunt force and heat damage.


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## Jad (May 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> > can you prove the one madara used. btw 5 in a row are weaker than what sasuke used. soul being ripped out didn't stop him from using jutsu. why assume his jutsu was weakened because of it. though an edo tensei rinnegan madara is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wait for it>>>>>>>>>>>hebi sasuke. so even a weakened jutsu should still be stronger.
> >
> > fire dragon jutsu isn't known for its size but what it does. its a compact fireball. not a fire stream of sorts
> 
> ...


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## Grimsley (May 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Tsunade would dominate kakuzu without much problems tbh. She pretty much regenerates from everything he throws and runs through his Justu via super enhanced legend strength and chakra to the feet tech. A single hit would absolutely obliterate his Domu given what she did to Ribcage Sussano and his limited Domu is.
> 
> His fire Justu clings to Tsuande just as long Madaras Katon did in canon. There is no actually proof that his Katon would be stronger than Madaras regardless.  Not like she has doesn't have other ways around it anyway. *AOE doesn't equal more power, especially when one is shape manipulated giving it blunt force and heat damage.*



That's a good point. Madara's attack actually took a physical form so it was a much more focused and deadly attack. And this is Madara we're talking about as well, his chakra should be insane and his katon jutsu's definitely above average. Kakuzu's attack is not competing with Madara's lol.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

Polls would have been nice. I think its 50/50 here. for now some say oh no tsunade gets trashed 
while others think the opposite not bad

Gian. at best makes a hole in tsunade. she heals from that. gian got zero to suggest it paralyzes on contact. not all ration jutsu paralyze. RCM would be one I could mention. 

katon. she could slap those away. Already done

futon. she gets sent flying and gets up happy as a lamp

doton domu<<rib cage susanoo. so we know how that should go


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## Kai (May 27, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> I'd love to see Tsunade getting up immediately after taking Raiton: Gian that almost burned Kakashi's (while using Raikiri) hands off. Do I need to remind you what Sasuke's much inferior Chidori Nagashi did to Naruto and Sai?


Tsunade survived a ninjutsu supposed to rip a human body to shreds with Sozo Saisei. Then with Byakugo active, she kept fighting undeterred with two Susanoo blades through her stomach and punched five Madara fireballs away.

I doubt Gian is making any progress on those rejuvenation feats, especially on a ninjutsu with years worth of chakra storage.



			
				ghostcrawler said:
			
		

> While Tsunade is on the ground Kakuzu keeps blasting her until there is nothing left. Byakugo is not infinite.


Tsunade will be constantly healed and thus constantly fighting at full strength, even while she's getting damaged. She won't be on the ground helpless like that while Byakugo is live.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

QUOTE=Jad;53675370]





Icegaze said:


> My main point really was to say Kakuzu's element is not getting 'swatted away', since I find it as difficult to imagine as trying to swat away an ocean. That said, I don't really care for the Kakuzu vs. Madara's katon, whose is stronger debate. All I'm saying is, by canon standards, yes, Hebi's Sasuke's flames in my opinion, would be stronger. I forgot where it was stated, but it was stated that pouring more chakara into a Katon technique, and making it bigger, does make it stronger. I will get back to you on that.



fair enough. she wont swat it away. she should however be able to run through it just fine. 

I don't remember that ever being stated. would love a scan. lemme know what you find. 

also do read up on the fire dragon technique. then compare what it says and put that against other katon techniques. you would notice its size doesn't affect its power at all. 



> But not only that, it's the fact that Madara literally used the technique while his soul - not his edo body - his soul was ripped from his body. I find it hard to believer it was that strong, when Hebi Sasuke's Katon looks more intimidating, yes, due to the size. If I was a average reader, not a battle dome debater, and I showed you side by side, Sasuke's and Madara's Katon. Whose looks stronger? I think that's how we should view it honestly.



but you got no proof that would make his katon weaker. if he had the ability to use jutsu then really he was unaffected. 

but when has AoE been an absolute for power. Futon rasengan vs atsugi which is stronger?



> Icegaze said:
> 
> 
> > My other main point was, if the flames hit Tsunade dead on, she is covered in them. Without Katsuya, she is covered in blinding light of the flames. How will she dodge a move that Kakuzu executes that will surely put her down. He has free aim at that point.



blinding light of flames. katon has been used several times mind showing me anyone blinded by it. I am curious. what stops her from running through it. something kakuzu cant expect 

and then slapping kakuzu to the ground?


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> any proof his stringy body allows him to take blunt force.


I-I don't actually have to explain to you why Kakuzu's string body is better suited to take damage than a normal body? Try to use some common sense.


> orochiamaru got an elastic body. it doesn't suddenly make him immune.


Who the fuck was talking about Kakuzu being immune? And Orochimaru's body allowed him to survive that hit to the face. Jiraiya example would've died.  



> kakuzu face isn't stringy is it?


He has arms to block.


> he isn't better in taijutsu. yes he has shown more feats.


So you agree that Kakuzu has better Taijutsu feats but is not better? 




> Mei has shown less feats than konohamaru in cqc does that mean he can take her in hand to hand?



Kakuzu is S-rated Kage level Shinobi like Tsunade and Mei. Konohamaru is a legit Genin. Your comparison is retarded.


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## Bonly (May 27, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Hmm, let's see. Kakuzu already has his weird string body which allows him to take blunt damage well



Can you show me where it's stated that the threads allow him to take blunt damage better or can you show me all of these blunt damage attacks he took head on well? I honestly don't remember either of those two 



> and on top of it a Ninjutsu that boosts his durability even further.



True.



> He is better in Taijutsu and faster (not drastically but still).



She had a 5 in Taijutsu, Kakuzu had a 4 in Taijutsu so yeah. 



> Tell me, what is Tsunade going to do when Kakuzu catches her by the throat with Jiongu? She has no way to cut the strings



Tsuande can use chakra scalpel which would allow her to cut through them.



> and Kakuzu is free to blast her from existence with multiple Katons, Fuutons and Raitons.



Byakugo would be a great help here.



ghostcrawler said:


> She hasn't shown any impressive Taijutsu skill in the manga. She is average or slightly better.



LOL. Kakuzu hasn't shown anything impressive in Taijutsu either, hell most of his pure Taijutsu comes from blindsides and yet even though he hasn't shown anything impressive that somehow makes him better then her? Come on cuzz



> Unreliable 5 rating comes from her monstrous strength.



The Taijutsu stat includes ones knowledge and proficiency in Taijutsu.



> Kakashi is very skilled in Taijutsu and has a Sharingan and Kakuzu was going toe to toe with him. Kakuzu is at least some what above Tsunade in skill.



Kakuzu never went toe to toe with Kakashi. Whenever they met it was through a blindside. Hell most of the time Kakuzu used his elemental jutsu to distract Kakashi then attacked with his Jiongu threads and doing such isn't actual Taijutsu.



> And this requires her to stand still which gives an opening for Kakuzu to blow her away.



Is she suddenly restricted from moving if she wants to pull something towards her?


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## Grimsley (May 27, 2015)

I would wager that the consensus is Tsunade wins the fight with a few oddballs, as you'd expect from NF, undermining Tsunade.


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Kai said:


> Tsunade survived a ninjutsu supposed to rip a human body to shreds with Sozo Saisei.


Irrelevant. She is still be heavily damaged by Kakuzu's Ninjutsu.


> Then with Byakugo active, she kept fighting undeterred with two Susanoo blades through her stomach and punched five Madara fireballs away.


Doesn't help much when she is paralyzed on the ground and burning alive. 


> I doubt Gian is making any progress on those rejuvenation feats, especially on a ninjutsu with years worth of chakra storage.


What? Gian is going to leave her paralyzed when it hits. 




> She won't be on the ground helpless like that while Byakugo is live.


Byakugo is not* preventing paralyzation.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> I-I don't actually have to explain to you why Kakuzu's string body is better suited to take damage than a normal body? Try to use some common sense.



his face isn't stringy. try harder. I never said u have to explain why a stringy body is better suited for blunt force. orochimaru body is elastic 



> Who the fuck was talking about Kakuzu being immune? And Orochimaru's body allowed him to survive that hit to the face. Jiraiya example would've died.



you having a bad day? you sound angry. Yes orochimaru survived a punch from tsunade weakened and without byakuyo. big whoop



> He has arms to block.



are his arm more durable than rib cage suanoo?



> So you agree that Kakuzu has better Taijutsu feats but is not better?



kakuzu doesn't have better taijutsu . feats though. unless u got him fighting 5 susanoo clones with just taijutsu. that was tsunade main form of attack right. 



> Kakuzu is S-rated Kage level Shinobi like Tsunade and Mei. Konohamaru is a legit Genin. Your comparison is retarded.



like I said you having a bad day. kakuzu don't have any feats to suggest he is fighting 5 opponents using just taijutsu. to attack. feel free to show me kakuzu doing that.


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Top tier replies as usual. Your counter arguments make zero sense.


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## Jad (May 27, 2015)

This is off topic from what I was discussing with Ice Gaze. But I think it's a bit unfair to say Tsunade can get away with 'tanking every arsenal Kakuzu has'.

If these two lightning spears hit her, and I'm saying IF. She'd be cleaved in two. I didn't highlight the text, I just found it on Google Images.

To be honest, I'm referring to the image to show you how big the spears are, not the text. Edit: Now that I look at it, one spear is enough to rip her in two.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

maybe because you did not read them 

what I am telling you others have basically told you on the exact same page. but yh sure. 

kakuzu can block with his magically more durable than rib cage susanoo arms.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

Jad said:


> This is off topic from what I was discussing with Ice Gaze. But I think it's a bit unfair to say Tsunade can get away with 'tanking every arsenal Kakuzu has'.
> 
> If these two lightning spears hit her, and I'm saying IF. She'd be cleaved in two. I didn't highlight the text, I just found it on Google Images.
> 
> To be honest, I'm referring to the image to show you how big the spears are, not the text. Edit: Now that I look at it, one spear is enough to rip her in two.



any proof those 2 lightning bolts hitting her are stronger than 2 susanoo swords stabbing her?
because she had 2 in her gut and was fighting with 2 in her gut

its an unfair assumption that you would make to assume the bolts hitting her would cleave her. when its got zero feats or hype to suggest it can do that. 

i wont take no shots at you . but i got the feeling if this was base gai it wouldn't cleave him if it hit. any reason?

the bolts can be even twice as big no feats to suggest the can do more damage than 2 V3 susanoo swords. 

why cant she slap it away? she has already slapped a fire ball. why cant she slap a bolt of lightning shikamaru could react to?


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## Jad (May 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i wont take no shots at you . but i got the feeling if this was base gai it wouldn't cleave him if it hit. any reason?



Gai would be cleaved in half. Lightning jutsu's that are specifically meant to pierce, especially ones that took Rakiri to cancel out, would pierce almost everyone.


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## Kadu (May 27, 2015)

Tsunade kills him mid def.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

Jad said:


> Gai would be cleaved in half. Lightning jutsu's that are specifically meant to pierce, especially ones that took Rakiri to cancel out, would pierce almost everyone.



so long as that is your stance I give it all the merits it deserves. well done

now care to explain why that would be sharper than 2 V3 susanoo blades?

or are we implying kakashi can cancel 2 blades swinging at him with raikiri 

also shikamaru had the reactions to attempt setting up a defence against gian

that kinda means its not fast


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## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

Because IceGaze, Kakuzu's Raiton naturally has a higher penetrative force due to it being a natural component and Raiton and the fact that Kakuzu's Raiton would cover a much smaller area compared to the Susano'o blades making it have a much higher penetrative force.

 Furthermore, Sasuke's Chidori Eisou could slice through the Hachibi's Tentacle and Kakuzu's should theoretically be stronger due to it being composed of multiple lightning bolts.

 It's certainly reasonable that Kakuzu's Raiton can bisect Tsunade. The reason why the Susano'o blades didn't slice her into pieces is because Madara was holding back and enjoyed watching them suffer. I mean honestly, the fact that he didn't kill the Kages with Perfect Susano'o in an instant suggests it. That, and the fact that the Susano'o blades that pierced Tsunade were obviously chipped off, suggesting Tsunade provided resistance. It's evident in the fact that the blades completely dwarf the Kages while the blades that entered Tsunade's guts were significantly smaller as well as the fact they were cracked which implies that she provided resistance before they could completely pierce through her.

 As for the topic, Byakugo Tsunade should be faster than Team-Ino-Shika-Cho who could evade Kakuzu's Katon + Futon combination which covers the large range compared to his other ninjutsu though it won't be easy due to Tsunade's straight-forward fighting style while Kakuzu being an experienced fighter with enhanced strength thanks to Domu and his Tentacles can definitely provide resistance and give her trouble though I wouldn't doubt that Tsunade could push through a provide a massive blow against Kakuzu. There's also the fact that Kakuzu has 4 masks that can pressure Tsunade due to the fact that Kakuzu managed to pressure Darui, Chouza, Tenten, and a part of a Shinobi Division which is very impressive.

 Still, I do think with Katsuyu and Byakugo Tsunade's resistance and durability that she would take this mid-diff at the least.


----------



## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because IceGaze, Kakuzu's Raiton naturally has a higher penetrative force due to it being a natural component and Raiton and the fact that Kakuzu's Raiton would cover a much smaller area compared to the Susano'o blades making it have a much higher penetrative force.



please do prove those susanoo blade sized lighting bolts would pierce a smaller area. 


> Furthermore, Sasuke's Chidori Eisou could slice through the Hachibi's Tentacle and Kakuzu's should theoretically be stronger due to it being composed of multiple lightning bolts.



so u are comparing tentacles that basic fuma shuriken cut through like butter to tsunade who tanks kusanagi and mabui technique?



> It's certainly reasonable that Kakuzu's Raiton can bisect Tsunade. The reason why the Susano'o blades didn't slice her into pieces is because Madara was holding back and enjoyed watching them suffer. I mean honestly, the fact that he didn't kill the Kages with Perfect Susano'o in an instant suggests it. That, and the fact that the Susano'o blades that pierced Tsunade were obviously chipped off, suggesting Tsunade provided resistance. It's evident in the fact that the blades completely dwarf the Kages while the blades that entered Tsunade's guts were significantly smaller as well as the fact they were cracked which implies that she provided resistance before they could completely pierce through her.



5 clones couldn't despite that being the clear objective notice the number of torso shots madara got in. ok so u think madara holding back is weaker than kakuzu going all out?

notice madara needed to get serious to cut tsunade in half. what makes u think kakuzu can do that with 1 measly technique that shikamaru could react to?

serious madara is stronger than an army of kakuzu



> As for the topic, Byakugo Tsunade should be faster than Team-Ino-Shika-Cho who could evade Kakuzu's Katon + Futon combination which covers the large range compared to his other ninjutsu though it won't be easy due to Tsunade's straight-forward fighting style while Kakuzu being an experienced fighter with enhanced strength thanks to Domu and his Tentacles can definitely provide resistance and give her trouble though I wouldn't doubt that Tsunade could push through a provide a massive blow against Kakuzu. There's also the fact that Kakuzu has 4 masks that can pressure Tsunade due to the fact that Kakuzu managed to pressure Darui, Chouza, Tenten, and a part of a Shinobi Division which is very impressive


.

impressive true. but only if u ignore tsunade slapping away 5 katon. what makes u think she cant slap away kakuzu blasts? 



> Still, I do think with Katsuyu and Byakugo Tsunade's resistance and durability that she would take this mid-diff at the least.



mid diff at the most. elemental blasts than chouji and ino are reacting to isn't going to be doing much against tsunade. she will evade mostly and when she gets annoyed runs through them to kill the masks annoying her


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 27, 2015)

Jad said:


> This is off topic from what I was discussing with Ice Gaze. But I think it's a bit unfair to say Tsunade can get away with 'tanking every arsenal Kakuzu has'.
> 
> If these two lightning spears hit her, and I'm saying IF. She'd be cleaved in two. I didn't highlight the text, I just found it on Google Images.
> 
> To be honest, I'm referring to the image to show you how big the spears are, not the text. Edit: Now that I look at it, one spear is enough to rip her in two.



That picture shows that Shikamaru could pull out a scroll in reaction to gian.  He couldn't activate it in time, but if he can do that much, I'm not worried about Tsunade ever getting hit by it.


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## Ryuzaki (May 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> any proof its stronger than what madara used? btw the jutsu madara used is the same jutsu that sasuke used to prep kirin
> 
> please read up on that jutsu then compare it to kakuzu katon and do get back to me. i am curious as to what you would find


It has a larger blast radius and it grows in size from the epicenter, it's not something she can just "bat away"


ghostcrawler said:


> Zukokku is a lot bigger.
> 
> edit. holy fuck now NBD is swarming with Tsunade wankers...


Tell me about it,


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 27, 2015)

As for punching fire, against AOE punching it directly probably wouldn't work.  But punching the ground and using the shockwaves might.  As would punching up a chunk of the ground to use as a shield.

But I think she's just jump and dodge it like Kakashi.  Atsugai follows the ground, so using a finger fissure would cut a path through it.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> please do prove those susanoo blade sized lighting bolts would pierce a smaller area.



 Please prove that a Raiton spear would be Susano'o sized.




> so u are comparing tentacles that basic fuma shuriken cut through like butter to tsunade who tanks kusanagi and mabui technique?



 The tentacles along with Domu are mainly used to ensure that Kakuzu either restrains her or maintains a respectable distance away from her as Tsunade would admittedly crush Kakuzu even with Domu.




> 5 clones couldn't despite that being the clear objective notice the number of torso shots madara got in. ok so u think madara holding back is weaker than kakuzu going all out?



 The Susano'o clones are mainly physical fighters while Kakuzu is a longer-ranged fighter with the means of maintaining a respectable distance away from Tsunade. Tsunade is obviously a threat in CQC which is even implied by more agile opponents as they would fail to get in a hit due to Tsunade's immense strength and durability. That's likely why she competed so well against the Susano'o clones. That, or the clones were simply caught off-guard by Tsunade's resilience and thus, managed to land a blow against one considering Ei's fighting style, which wasn't as reckless as Tsunade's, couldn't even land a clean hit despite being much faster. 



> notice madara needed to get serious to cut tsunade in half. what makes u think kakuzu can do that with 1 measly technique that shikamaru could react to?



 He did not. He effortlessly impaled her. She easily gets bushin feinted and gets bisected in half by Ribcage Susano'o.

 Shikamaru can't react to Kakuzu's wires. That's evident when Kakuzu blitzed 3T Kakashi who has far better reactions compared to Shikamaru.



> serious madara is stronger than an army of kakuzu



 Tsunade never fought serious Madara. If she did, she would've been dead. She was lucky to have Onoki who managed to motivate the group. If it wasn't for that, she would've lacked the willpower and would not have fought as well as she did.

 .



> impressive true. but only if u ignore tsunade slapping away 5 katon. what makes u think she cant slap away kakuzu blasts?



 I need to look at the scan to counter this argument. 





> mid diff at the most. elemental blasts than chouji and ino are reacting to isn't going to be doing much against tsunade. she will evade mostly and when she gets annoyed runs through them to kill the masks annoying her



 Kakuzu's Raiton travels far faster than Kakuzu's Katon + Futon combination. Even then, the fact that Tsunade's a close-range fighter implies she has no way to evade the AoE and will effortlessly get pushed back the same way Kakashi did despite using Suiton. After getting inflicted with some degree of damage, other masks can swing in and weaken her with an onslaught of jutsu. Afterwards, she gets grabbed or even impaled by a Domu + Wire combination. With Kakuzu's battle experience, he certainly can pull this off and impale her with an attack she wouldn't expect, the same way Madara did with his Ribcaged Susano'o.

 Even if Tsunade manages to kill one of the masks, that simply gives Kakuzu an incentive to keep his masks a safe distance away from Tsunade as he attempts to hammer her with attacks.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 27, 2015)

One would think that being a successful close range fighter implies you have the ability to deal with AOE and close distance on ranged fighters.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> One would think that being a successful close range fighter implies you have the ability to deal with AOE and close distance on ranged fighters.



 One would think so, but Tsunade has very little versatility and a more straight-forward fighting style. Furthermore, her speed isn't exactly impressive which makes it more difficult to close the distance on ranged fighters. Even Kakashi implied that unless you're a clever tactician, a close-range fighter always has the disadvantage against a long-range fighter. The only individuals who managed to counter that disadvantage was Neji and Sasuke, but both are more analytical fighters compared to Tsunade.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 27, 2015)

If you wouldn't think so, they you shouldn't really say being a close range fighter implies you can't close distance.

I also recall Shikamaru stating that a good counter to a long range fighter is a close range fighter vs Tayuya.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If you wouldn't think so, they you shouldn't really say being a close range fighter implies you can't close distance.
> 
> I also recall Shikamaru stating that a good counter to a long range fighter is a close range fighter vs Tayuya.



 I need a scan of that.

 Kakashi's statement to Naruto along with Neji and Sasuke's fight against Kidoumaru and Deidara respectively suggests the opposite. I can't fathom why a Close Range Fighter would be implied to be a good counter to a Long Ranged Fighter.


----------



## Veracity (May 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> One would think so, but Tsunade has very little versatility and a more straight-forward fighting style. Furthermore, her speed isn't exactly impressive which makes it more difficult to close the distance on ranged fighters. Even Kakashi implied that unless you're a clever tactician, a close-range fighter always has the disadvantage against a long-range fighter. The only individuals who managed to counter that disadvantage was Neji and Sasuke, but both are more analytical fighters compared to Tsunade.



Kakazu isn't fast either.. You forget that Shikamaru could dodge his blindsided attacks. Tsuande has the benefit of being able to walk through his attacks.. And according to concrete feats, her flicker is actually faster than his..  

The battle is more than likely to go CQC( like almost every single manga battle goes) than for Tsuande to be killed by kakuzu's lackluster  long ranged attacks.


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## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Kakazu isn't fast either.. You forget that Shikamaru could dodge his blindsided attacks. Tsuande has the benefit of being able to walk through his attacks.. And according to concrete feats, her flicker is actually faster than his..



 It doesn't matter. He has extra versatility and ranged jutsu that keep himself at a respectable distance away from Tsunade along with the fact that his Wires are much faster than his actual movement speed, evident by the fact that he managed to blitz Kakashi. 

 I'm not surprised that Tsunade can move faster than Kakuzu nor did I imply he can't, but that doesn't necessarily screw him over. Location actually aids him here and makes his Wire speed very effective as he can latch onto many pillars and quickly evade Tsunade's range as she struggles to evade all of the masks at once.



> The battle is more than likely to go CQC( like almost every single manga battle goes) than for Tsuande to be killed by kakuzu's lackluster  long ranged attacks.



 With intent to kill, I wouldn't be surprised if Kakuzu unleashed his masks with intent to kill. Along with Domu + Wires, he can get a respectable distance away from Tsunade. His fighting style revolves more around his ninjutsu creating an opening for him to strike than it does for CQC. Even then, Kakuzu has far more battle experience and Tsunade has a lackluster fighting style making it easier for Kakuzu to predict.


----------



## Veracity (May 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It doesn't matter. He has extra versatility and ranged jutsu that keep himself at a respectable distance away from Tsunade along with the fact that his Wires are much faster than his actual movement speed, evident by the fact that he managed to blitz Kakashi.
> 
> I'm not surprised that Tsunade can move faster than Kakuzu nor did I imply he can't, but that doesn't necessarily screw him over. Location actually aids him here and makes his Wire speed very effective as he can latch onto many pillars and quickly evade Tsunade's range as she struggles to evade all of the masks at once.
> 
> ...



Byakago + chakra to the feet method + actual legs strenthj pretty much negate the effects of his elemental combinations. She dashes through them without slowing down. His tendril speed? Can you provide the Kakashi feat. And Tsunade also has a Katusyu unit for long range and communication.

She doesn't need to actually evade all the masks. She can tank most of them easily. While he can't tank anything in CQC.

I think Kakazu had intent to kill during the Kakashi battle , and still left him open for surprise attacks, and he neglected to bring out his full power for awhile. 

You act like Tsuande doesn't also have a shit ton of experience fighting through wars and everything ? I honestly doubt his experience amounts to anything. All his infinite wisdom still got his ass clone feinted by base wind arc Naruto SOO... 

Tsunade's fighting style also isn't lackluster rather extremely effective. I don't know how anyone's performance could look against Edo Madara anyway.


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## SenjuDNA (May 27, 2015)

I don't know where people are getting this entire "Madara clones were weak" argument randomly from. Madara was an Edo Tensei + this isn't your basic shadow clone jutsu he's using. 





> Moku Bunshin no Jutsu (p. 309)
> Wood Clone Technique (木分身の術, Moku Bunshin no Jutsu)
> 
> Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Supplementary
> ...



Their much superior in quality to simple shadow clones. Also the "Madara" was holding back argument is bad because that same Madara, with that same attitude by himself made everyone who wasn't Naruto look like chumps. Unless someone is going to make the argument that a holding back Mads is < than Kakuzu going all out. 

Tsunade also was impaled directly through the body with one, then two Susanno blades and it didn't impede her movement in the slightest. 

And there's no way I can't believe those things didn't sever her spine.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 27, 2015)

> Unless someone is going to make the argument that a holding back Mads is < than Kakuzu going all out.



That seems to be the argument, yes.


----------



## Icegaze (May 28, 2015)

> NarutoX28 said:
> 
> 
> > Please prove that a Raiton spear would be Susano'o sized.
> ...


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

Kakuzu's steals her heart. Literally.


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## Amol (May 28, 2015)

Tsunade slaps punches him.


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## Ryuzaki (May 28, 2015)

Amol said:


> Tsunade slaps punches him.



She lacks the speed required to do so.


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## meadie (May 28, 2015)

Kakuzu got this.....


----------



## Beyonce (May 28, 2015)

I still fail to see why people think Tsunade w/ Byakugou can't survive Kakuzu's arsenal?


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## Ryuzaki (May 28, 2015)

She did have Byakogou active when she fought Madara and ended up sliced right? It'll heal some abrasions and deep cuts, but having a full body severed or her head severed, it will not. I don't think she can grow a new heart or recover brain cells.


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## Veracity (May 28, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> She did have Byakogou active when she fought Madara and ended up sliced right? It'll heal some abrasions and deep cuts, but having a full body severed or her head severed, it will not. I don't think she can grow a new heart or recover brain cells.



Byakago can regenerate anything as long as Tsuande has some form of consciousness. So pain arc Tsuande with Byakago would literally be like wolverine or the hulk. She could regenerate her entire torso being turned into nothing pretty casually.

Why don't you think she could regenerate her heart? I mean she could blitz Kabuto with her intercostal lungs severed(supersedes drowning) and heal the damage with base medical Justu when she was already rusty: Oh really?

While Rusty, Tsuande was able to move efficiently enough to intercept Oros swings and outright blitz ORO after her midsection(organs and clearly the heart) were targeted by a diamond cutting sword: 
Oh really?
Oh really?
Oh really?

Then instantly healed the damage instantly with an inferior Justu:
Oh really?

She also was on her way to healing being completely split in half: Link removed
( she was split in half for hours so her heart was failing at this point, and her organs were crushed by the giant Mokuton branch) through remote Katsuyu healing running on basically no chakra.

And why do you think she can't heal brain cells. I mean she casually heals her heart and nerve endings/cells which is just as deadly as brain cells. I mean it's actually impossible to regenerate nerve cells and she does that shit. Regenerating a heart( canon) and brain cells isn't too far fetched. Especially considering she is hyped to never die in battle .


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## Ryuzaki (May 28, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Byakago can regenerate anything as long as Tsuande has some form of consciousness. So pain arc Tsuande with Byakago would literally be like wolverine or the hulk. She could regenerate her entire torso being turned into nothing pretty casually.
> 
> Why don't you think she could regenerate her heart? I mean she could blitz Kabuto with her intercostal lungs severed(supersedes drowning) and heal the damage with base medical Justu when she was already rusty: Link removed
> 
> ...


Neurons in the brain and heart cells have no capacity for regeneration, when they are lost, a fibrous tissue (scar) is what replaces it. This scar tissue is nonfunctional and it's a result of the wound healing process that naturally takes place. 

Heart cells never grow in number, they can be induced to grow by size over a long period of stress. However, when they are damaged, e.g. due to trauma or heart attack, the best it can do is repair via a scar. A scar on the heart has numerous complications and eventually limits the physical capabilities of the individual.

When she was cut in half, her body wasn't left out for too long where she would lose complex neural connections throughout, Orochimaru arrived on the scene and she was sewn up before the injury could be serious.


----------



## Euraj (May 28, 2015)

Beyonc? said:


> I still fail to see why people think Tsunade w/ Byakugou can't survive Kakuzu's arsenal?


I know. She was thrown through space at a speed only Raiton Chakra Mode's durability had survived and lost no limbs, showing some surprising durability, and healing all of her surface wounds in what, two seconds? If Kakuzu's arsenal was so damn strong, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been able to blast his own teammate with it and have him walk it off with a grin.


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## Veracity (May 29, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Neurons in the brain and heart cells have no capacity for regeneration, when they are lost, a fibrous tissue (scar) is what replaces it. This scar tissue is nonfunctional and it's a result of the wound healing process that naturally takes place.
> 
> Heart cells never grow in number, they can be induced to grow by size over a long period of stress. However, when they are damaged, e.g. due to trauma or heart attack, the best it can do is repair via a scar. A scar on the heart has numerous complications and eventually limits the physical capabilities of the individual.
> 
> When she was cut in half, her body wasn't left out for too long where she would lose complex neural connections throughout, Orochimaru arrived on the scene and she was sewn up before the injury could be serious.



Which all would carry its merit if we weren't debating about a manga. Tsuande has canonically regenerated her nerve cells so all the logic you just applied is thrown right out the window. She had 80% of her spinal cord erased right here: Link removed
EAnd she was able to fight with the swords in her spinal cord, and then heal the bone, tissue and nerve cell damage. Nerve cells cannot be regenerated and she regenerated them canonically. I see no reason other than her lack of feats, to assume she cannot heal severe head damage when she is hyped to never die in battle- and head Injuries are common in ninja battles.

Why are you placing human limitations on tsuande ? SS stimulates the production of enzymes and rapidly heals the entire cell. She doesn't just heal, she regenerates. She has already casually healed a shredded heart while rusty and using SS. There is nothing left to argue its canon.

Tsunade's organs were crushed and failing for the amount of time it took from Madara to go from the kage battlefield to naruto and Co. Which atleast was 30 min, which is more than enough time for someone to completely die out when split in half,


----------



## Melodie (May 29, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> She did have Byakogou active when she fought Madara and ended up sliced right? It'll heal some abrasions and deep cuts, but having a full body severed or her head severed, it will not. I don't think she can grow a new heart or recover brain cells.



She had Byakogou active for an entire day (or more) where she was repeatedly stabbed and damaged by things that are in much bigger scale than Kakuzu's arsenal. She was even moving in a situation where she, logically speaking, shouldn't be able to move. It just suggests that her regeneration is about instantaneous, which doesn't make heart cells regeneration to be much of a reach.


Decapitation is another topic though, I don't think she personally can heal it. Since, well, it's the brain, lol.

P.S: She did not fail to regenerate her lower part because Byakugo is not able to regenerate a full body severed part, Byakugo was deactivated due to low amount of chakra when she physically deflected Madara's Katon. She was sliced apart when she literally had no chakra to properly save herself, as Katsuyu mentioned during her healing process.

I mean, Tsunade was able to regenerate her lower body part without even the usage of Byakugo, but only with Katsuyu's ability the second she received sufficient chakra from Karin.

P.P.S: The healing ability is not Katsuyu's. Katsuyu is the link, Tsunade does the healing, as it has been proven and mentioned numerous times [Again, without even resorting to Byakugo].


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## Ryuzaki (May 29, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Which all would carry its merit if we weren't debating about a manga. Tsuande has canonically regenerated her nerve cells so all the logic you just applied is thrown right out the window. She had 80% of her spinal cord erased right here: * deep craters*
> EAnd she was able to fight with the swords in her spinal cord, and then heal the bone, tissue and nerve cell damage. Nerve cells cannot be regenerated and she regenerated them canonically. I see no reason other than her lack of feats, to assume she cannot heal severe head damage when she is hyped to never die in battle- and head Injuries are common in ninja battles.
> 
> Why are you placing human limitations on tsuande ? SS stimulates the production of enzymes and rapidly heals the entire cell. She doesn't just heal, she regenerates. She has already casually healed a shredded heart while rusty and using SS. There is nothing left to argue its canon.
> ...


If you want me to ignore something because it's a manga, then don't use science to back up your claims either. However, you are incorrect in suggesting that nerve cells do not regenerate in the peripheral body; regeneration does take place, but does so at a slow rate. Nerve cells within the brain and the central nervous system, however, do not regenerate because they do not have the capacity to do so.

Her spinal cord wasn't erased, it was severed, but thanks to her technique she can heal simultaneously heal herself as the injury is inflicted. In that the connections within the spinal cord are maintained. The point, I'm trying to make here is, when she is cleaved in half and left for dead, due to chakra exhaustion, which happened in the fight against Madara, she would not be able to regenerate anymore. If not for Orochimaru showing up, some of her injuries would have been permanent.

Also, the primary role of enzymes in necrosis, is to degrade damaged cells even further. All of the organs in the midgut region, especially the stomacha and intestines, which is what would have been injured the most, have a high replicative rate to begin with. So, they can actually regrow, even at a later point time. Injuries here can be sustained for a longer time than say the heart. Furthermore, you can dissect multiple segments of the liver and it will regrow back. 



Melodie said:


> She had Byakogou active for an entire day (or more) where she was repeatedly stabbed and damaged by things that are in much bigger scale than Kakuzu's arsenal. She was even moving in a situation where she, logically speaking, shouldn't be able to move. It just suggests that her regeneration is about instantaneous, which doesn't make heart cells regeneration to be much of a reach.
> 
> Decapitation is another topic though, I don't think she personally can heal it. Since, well, it's the brain, lol.
> 
> ...


Katsuyu probably kept her organs and spinal cord alive by keeping the connections primed to be rejoined, however, as in an actual fight, with Tsunade low on chakra, she would effectively lose, as her opponent would not obviously stand around while she recovers.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 29, 2015)

Tsunade had a sword stabbed through her spine.  Byako is basically magic incorrectly described with grade school level biology.  

Regardless, 4.0 speed vs 3.5 speed isn't a significant gap, if you still want to argue that Early P2 Naruto could run with the 4 kage vs Madara and not be this guy in the bottom left.  Then again, 3.5 speed Naruto got close to Kakuzu, so that shouldn't even matter.  Byako also grants huge enhancements, because it's basically sage mode in everything but name.  (increases base stats, enhances all jutsu, is compatible with the third boss summon, all of which use natural energy.) 

Base Tsunade with summons restricted vs Kakuzu is a decent fight Tsunade wins with difficulty.


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## Ryuzaki (May 29, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tsunade had a sword stabbed through her spine.  Byako is basically magic incorrectly described with grade school level biology.
> 
> Regardless, 4.0 speed vs 3.5 speed isn't a significant gap, if you still want to argue that Early P2 Naruto could run with the 4 kage vs Madara and not be this guy in the bottom left.  Then again, 3.5 speed Naruto got close to Kakuzu, so that shouldn't even matter.  Byako also grants huge enhancements, because it's basically sage mode in everything but name.  (increases base stats, enhances all jutsu, is compatible with the third boss summon, all of which use natural energy.)
> 
> Base Tsunade with summons restricted vs Kakuzu is a decent fight Tsunade wins with difficulty.


Where did it say that it increases base stats?


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## Jad (May 29, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Where did it say that it increases base stats?



From what I understand the databook says Byakugo increases Tsunade's power. I've never seen a literal explanation of ones stats increasing though.

Byakugo equalling same boost in Sage mode is reaching to the heavens though.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (May 29, 2015)

Was gonna make my analysis but then I realized I was voting against Kakuzu. Fuck. That.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 29, 2015)

Inorite?  Voting against a 54 pointer in a 1v1 is weird.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Where did it say that it increases base stats?





Jad said:


> From what I understand the databook says Byakugo increases Tsunade's power. I've never seen a literal explanation of ones stats increasing though.
> 
> Byakugo equalling same boost in Sage mode is reaching to the heavens though.



Turrin's translation mentioned it boosting the user's power in ambiguous terms.



> Release the chakra stored in ones forehead. Wounds completely recover, while at the same time ones own power rises*



Frankly I was against it for a long time, but it fits too well with explaining events in the manga so I gave up and rolled on the Byako train.

*Reason 1:*
There hasn't been a time in this manga where someone gained a huge boost in chakra that didn't also equal a boost in speed and strength, and often durability.  CS, SM, bijuu chakra, butterfly mode (which is nothing but a surge of normal chakra), Hashi's chakra, getting Itachi's eyeballs, whatever.  Even the Pain bodies receiving more chakra boosted their stats, and it happens with shoten clones, edo tensei, and kagebunshin as well.  

*Reason 2:*
Byako is applied to every jutsu, be it strength enhancement, regeneration, or medical jutsu.  Even gifted to others, and whoever was given byako chakra got a phenomenal boost to their performance.  Onoki's gigantor cube, Obito's kamui becoming multidimensional.  In the latter case, warping multiple dimensions was high cost for Kagura, and there's zero way I can think of bridging that gap without assuming a qualitative difference in chakra, or  assuming 3 years of Sakura's piddly daily chakra amounts to many times the world's entire supply.  I pick the first one.  If the quality of chakra is different, that means the quality of chakra fueling everything the ninja does is better, and means a stat boost to everything.  Which also explains how Sakura could perceive or respond to anything during battle of the gods, because she certainly couldn't do that with base stats.

*Reason 3:*
DBZ


----------



## Jad (May 30, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Turrin's translation mentioned it boosting the user's power in ambiguous terms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Point and case. You are literally taking "power rises" and sticking 3 paragraphs of explanation behind it on how it applies to an increase of all stats, notably speed. You need more than "power rises" to make such leaps in judgement.

Sage Mode, and Curse Sealed mode, work in completely different ways than just releasing stored chakara from your forehead - they literally go through a physical metamorphosis. Having access to large amounts of Chakra does not equate to moving fast. Butterfly Chouji, his going to move faster than his normal speed because, he burns all the calories in his body and becomes lighter. It's like Lee throwing his weights off and moving fast, while Chouji sheds his weight in a second. I don't understand your point about Hashi's chakra and Itachi's eyeballs. I don't remember Hashi's Chakra boosting speed, although if it did, I'm sure Yamato would have proven this. As for Shoten Clones, Edo Tensei and Kage Bunshins, no idea what you mean.

Byakgo boosted Ninjutsu techniques because it pumped more Chakra into the technique. So what? This isn't a big thing, we knew about putting more Chakra into a technique would make the technique bigger, however the quality of the technique is the same as always. As for Sakura, she opened a small hole in the dimension with Obito. Kaguya change the dimension itself. That's like comparing a grain of sand to a beach.

At the end of the day, Boost in chakra does not boost everything, especially speed. Itachi has poor stamina, and he has a 5 in speed. Gai bent time and space with his speed, and that was using the last dregs of his Chakra. Same goes for durability.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 30, 2015)

> Kaguya change the dimension itself.



That's not what Kaguya did.  

When she complained about chakra cost.  Actually, looking back, it's arguable she was talking about warping other people, and not just changing her own dimension.



> You are literally taking "power rises" and sticking 3 paragraphs of explanation behind it on how it applies to an increase of all stats, notably speed.



There are three reasons why I came to accept that definition of "power rises" over assuming it didn't touch anything but regeneration.



> notably speed



I never said that.



> I don't understand your point about Hashi's chakra and Itachi's eyeballs.



Sasuke gradually got faster and better with Itachi's eyeballs.  There's no explanation for his boost in speed, stamina, and ability besides getting accustomed to EMS.  



> Byakgo boosted Ninjutsu techniques because it pumped more Chakra into the technique. So what?



There's a limit to chakra dumping, before it needs to become a new jutsu.  Otherwise you're just wasting chakra by putting in more than the jutsu uses, with no gains.*

Every exception is noted in the DB.  Water dragon jutsu, and Oro's explicitly scale.

The shoten clones, as well as the Edo Tensei, were explicitly weaker at everything because they weren't at full power.  Kagebunshin become supreme fodder with too little chakra.



> Sage Mode, and Curse Sealed mode, work in completely different ways than just releasing stored chakara from your forehead - they literally go through a physical metamorphosis.



Release the chakra stored in ones forehead. Wounds completely recover, while at the same time ones own power rises*, *however cell division quickens, which shortens ones life span. *

Physical change.



> Having access to large amounts of Chakra does not equate to moving fast.



Sometimes it does.  

You don't need huge amounts of chakra to be fast, which is why citing Itachi's low stamina doesn't mean anything.  Though having lots of chakra can help you to be fast.

Byakogou amped shunshin?

I mean if you think you can just dump chakra into any action and jutsu to infinitely increase it's yield, then surely byako lets the user pull an Raikage.  Between boosting shunshin and boosting Strength of 100 at will, and having auto-regen, and getting access to a giant chakra supply so you can do all that however much you want in a fight, there's really no point in arguing it.



> however the quality of the technique is the same as always



Sometimes it does.



> I don't remember Hashi's Chakra boosting speed, although if it did, I'm sure Yamato would have proven this.



We don't know how Yamato would have been as a ninja had he not be given Hashirama's cells at birth.  We can only judge by people who integrated his cells afterwards, and yeah, I think Hashi cells really boosted PI Kabuto.  They also gave a boost to Madara.



> Butterfly Chouji, his going to move faster than his normal speed because, he burns all the calories in his body and becomes lighter. It's like Lee throwing his weights off and moving fast, while Chouji sheds his weight in a second.





> *Databook:* A gentle boy takes on the role of wisdom out of his desire to protect the village, his body conceals power to manifest wings. Akimichi Clan's hidden ability to control one's own calories, to possess all of one's inner power and achieve an ultimate battle form (? I think). Gluttony stores calorie energy, the body's ability drastically improves, chakra materializes on one's back as wings, that enable someone to fly through the sky.



Dieting Choji wouldn't have his abilities match Butterfly Choji in any category but BMI.


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## Ryuzaki (May 30, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Turrin's translation mentioned it boosting the user's power in ambiguous terms.
> 
> Frankly I was against it for a long time, but it fits too well with explaining events in the manga so I gave up and rolled on the Byako train.
> 
> ...


Reason 1/2 don't make any sense whatsoever, it's like you guys aren't even reading the manga anymore.

For Reason 3, I might have to reconsider my entire point


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

lol liking the debate so far 
though i have a simple question to ask everyone 
what has kakuzu done in the manga to suggest he can inflict more damage than what susanoo clones did to tsunade?

any less and she will be healing just so you know 

kakuzu only way is to rip tsunade heart out. However as tsunade stated, even the loss of her heart completely shouldnt kill her 

kakuzu has shown no ability for anyone to assume he can split her in half. 

I would like everyone to note that 4 of the 5 gokage were straight knocked out, through indiscriminate attacks

madara chose to split tsunade in half for a reason people.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 1, 2015)

kakuzu can restrain & dismember Tsunade w/o using elements, tho adding them into close & mid range attack chains of ''long range mode'', where he is an pseudo-invulnerable, fluid/elastic mass of re-spawning jiongo limb-things & leeching, nature res. blaster-masks guarantees it w/ almost no difficulty

kakuzu wins everytime


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol liking the debate so far
> though i have a simple question to ask everyone
> what has kakuzu done in the manga to suggest he can inflict more damage than what susanoo clones did to tsunade?
> 
> ...


The stuff in bold is false, if she lost her heart, she would lose the ability to formulate chakra properly, as it is stated to be the chakra control center. And she would most certainly die.


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The stuff in bold is false, if she lost her heart, she would lose the ability to formulate chakra properly, as it is stated to be the chakra control center. And she would most certainly die.



 
this contradicts her statement of I can regrow organs

or is the heart not an organ ?

also kusanagi stabbed her straight through the heart. by your logic she should have died. yet she got up just fine. 

if u need scans ill post them. but isn't it just easier for you to read the manga so you know what you are talking about?


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> this contradicts her statement of I can regrow organs
> 
> or is the heart not an organ ?
> 
> ...


The heart is an organ but unlike other organs, it cannot regrow neither can the brain, because they are incapable of forming new cells or regeneration, all together. Unless, she gets some research cell lines like Orochimaru did and uses those in order to augment her healing.

She can heal a wound in her heart, I'm not saying she cannot do that, as she's already demonstrated, she can heal. You also have to take into account the wound was fresh, so the damage was minimal and the loss of blood was negligible. But if someone was to pluck her out her chest, she's not coming back from that.

There are limitations to her healing, even though she did not go into detail. For instance, repeated trauma would wipe out her regenerative powers, if a person kept attacking her in the same manner, it would reduce the dividing potential of the cells.


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2015)

The only regeneration that occurs in the heart merely produces closed scars and actually doesn't help the functionality of the heart much at all.  Taking a quick look at Tsuandes track record, if tsunade didn't completely regenerate her heart she would have the worst heart condition in history by the time she healed being split in half by Mokuton. It's clear that Tsuande can 100% regenerate her heart back to a perfect condition( and even can regenerate an entire heart). I mean she already has blizted an opponent with her heart slashed three times by a diamond cutting sword( regenerated the damage), continued to fight with several nerve cells destroyed( regenerated n cells), fought and blizted Kabuto without the ability to breathe( regenerated damage), and survived for probably more than hour without chakra with what organs crushed and her heart bleeding out( regenerated damage with remote healing).


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The heart is an organ but unlike other organs, it cannot regrow neither can the brain, because they are incapable of forming new cells or regeneration, all together. Unless, she gets some research cell lines like Orochimaru did and uses those in order to augment her healing.
> 
> She can heal a wound in her heart, I'm not saying she cannot do that, as she's already demonstrated, she can heal. You also have to take into account the wound was fresh, so the damage was minimal and the loss of blood was negligible. But if someone was to pluck her out her chest, she's not coming back from that.
> 
> There are limitations to her healing, even though she did not go into detail. For instance, repeated trauma would wipe out her regenerative powers, if a person kept attacking her in the same manner, it would reduce the dividing potential of the cells.



so how did she not die from having her heart run through by a sword? care to tell me

again you confuse healing with *regeneration * which is what tsunade is doing. she isn't healing old dead cells. she is creating new ones out of nothing but chakra. therefore if she can create new heart cells after a stab wound. then she can regrow a new 1 

I don't see why her heart ripped out will kill her when she was still breathing just fine after being split in half. in half!!! waaaay more damage than heart being ripped out 

*there are limitations to her healing. She has clearly stated what they are. which everyone seems to fail to notice through denial or just stubbornness. She cannot heal molecular level of damage. and things that cut her chakra network. She already told Naruto. healing FRS completely is beyond her*

SO she knows her limits. yet she claims she can regrow organs. why contradict the limits kishi set?

agreed there are only a number times her cells can keep dividing. However its unlikely to be exhausted in battle. seeing she fought madara for hours and that didn't happen


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so how did she not die from having her heart run through by a sword? care to tell me
> 
> again you confuse healing with *regeneration * which is what tsunade is doing. she isn't healing old dead cells. she is creating new ones out of nothing but chakra. therefore if she can create new heart cells after a stab wound. then she can regrow a new 1
> 
> ...


That's because her heart was still there, just damaged, using her jutsu, she speed up the regeneration process (which normally takes a month to form), however, in the case of these organs there is no new heart tissue being formed. Heart cells, after being damaged are replaced by another type of cell line. 

The only reason she was still breathing was because the bisection happened below the level of the lungs, if she had being bisected a few inches higher, her heart and lung would have been involved and then Katsuyu would have been unable to maintain herself. And Kakuzu would rip out her heart just like he did with many other shinobi. 

So then why would she be able to regrow a new heart? The heart is supposed to be the center of the chakra network, as from it, spreads to and supplies other areas of the body with chakra. If that is ripped out, how can she conceivably regrow one? 

Also, she got lucky that Dan arrived to give her a boost, because without that, she would have died immediately. Again, being pushed to the brink leaves her vulnerable.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> That's because her heart was still there, just damaged, using her jutsu, she speed up the regeneration process (which normally takes a month to form), however, in the case of these organs there is no new heart tissue being formed. Heart cells, after being damaged are replaced by another type of cell line.



common!!! seriously!!! its a manga she said she can regrow organs so she can. she basically mentions that specifically saying. i can regrow a bloody organ. i cant die in battle. which btw she didnt. despite being split in half something that kills 99% of the NV



> The only reason she was still breathing was because the bisection happened below the level of the lungs, if she had being bisected a few inches higher, her heart and lung would have been involved and then Katsuyu would have been unable to maintain herself. And Kakuzu would rip out her heart just like he did with many other shinobi.







> So then why would she be able to regrow a new heart? The heart is supposed to be the center of the chakra network, as from it, spreads to and supplies other areas of the body with chakra. If that is ripped out, how can she conceivably regrow one?



the center of her chakra network is the bloody seal on her forehead which she releases. its like you dont read the manga



> Also, she got lucky that Dan arrived to give her a boost, because without that, she would have died immediately. Again, being pushed to the brink leaves her vulnerable.




yh and kakuzu can do that with jutsu which chouji and ino can dodge and react to


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> common!!! seriously!!! its a manga she said she can regrow organs so she can. she basically mentions that specifically saying. i can regrow a bloody organ. i cant die in battle. which btw she didnt. despite being split in half something that kills 99% of the NV


I'm only stating what is proven in terms of a medical standpoint, her brain is an organ but if she gets decapitated she's not regrowing a new head. Likewise, the limitations of her medical jutsu lie within limits of the body. She cannot forcibly regrow tissue that has no potential to regrow (e.g. growing new eyes, heart).


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I'm only stating what is proven in terms of a medical standpoint, her brain is an organ but if she gets decapitated she's not regrowing a new head. Likewise, the limitations of her medical jutsu lie within limits of the body. She cannot forcibly regrow tissue that has no potential to regrow (e.g. growing new eyes, heart).



and kishi could not give 2 shits about medical stand points

when he has her saying she can regrow organs

he had tsunade say it. if its an organ she can regrow it. simple as that

do feel free to explain the likes of sasori from a medical stand point

go on ill wait or kakuzu 

its a manga where kishi words rule. no some BS medical stand point from whats in the real world


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> and kishi could not give 2 shits about medical stand points
> 
> when he has her saying she can regrow organs
> 
> ...


Yeah but even Kishi stated that the heart and the head are vulnerabe points in the persons chakra. It's the reason why the 9 Tails could not heal Naruto after Kabuto's slash because the network was cut. It's also the same reason why Orochimaru asserted having her head lopped would equal defeat for her.


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah but even Kishi stated that the heart and the head are vulnerabe points in the persons chakra. It's the reason why the 9 Tails could not heal Naruto after Kabuto's slash because the network was cut. It's also the same reason why Orochimaru asserted having her head lopped would equal defeat for her.



please show me where orochimaru made such assertion 

kyuubi healing doesn't grow organs though

again she isn't healing. that's the thing u aren't getting its beyond it. 

byakuyo has healed from omyoton. I need not tell u how ridiculous that is


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> please show me where orochimaru made such assertion
> 
> kyuubi healing doesn't grow organs though
> 
> ...



You are misunderstanding, Tsunade had to heal Naruto because Naruto's chakra network was cut (e.g. the muscles around his heart). If the same thing happened to Tsunade, she would be unable to make her own chakra either and thus would not be able to heal herself.


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> You are misunderstanding, Tsunade had to heal Naruto because Naruto's chakra network was cut (e.g. the muscles around his heart). If the same thing happened to Tsunade, she would be unable to make her own chakra either and thus would not be able to heal herself.



so then u could not provide a scan where you claimed orochimaru made the assertion then

concession accepted 

tsuande has a separate source of chakra though. sealed within her head that she releases to constantly heal. 

so the chakra network around her heart being cut should not affect the chakra that has already been sealed and distributed round her body for the purpose of healing

or stabbing her heart would have at least slowed her down. 

also if that was an effective way to put her down or slow her down. why would kishi have her claim she cant be killed in battle, then show her survive damage no non immortal implied person can survive?

can u show me where it says if muscles around the heart is damaged the whole chakra network is cut. 

cuz I believe madara would have done that in the 3 times he stabbed her. wouldn't u say


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## Veracity (Jun 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> You are misunderstanding, Tsunade had to heal Naruto because Naruto's chakra network was cut (e.g. the muscles around his heart). If the same thing happened to Tsunade, she would be unable to make her own chakra either and thus would not be able to heal herself.



That's not how Byakago works anyway. The chakra is formed around her body. She wouldn't need a working chakra system regardless. 

She also has a seal on her forehead made of chakra ... So you are very wrong


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 4, 2015)

Madara must be lucky none of those bijuu or sand bullets hit his chest or head, because regeneration is so limited.


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## Thunder (Jun 4, 2015)

Tsunade wins this. If she can crack Madara's Susano I think she can break through Doton: Domu. Susano got that ultimate defense hype like Gaara's sand. 

Byakugō heals off any damage Tsunade sustains from Kakuzu's elemental blasts. Even if you're of the opinion Raiton: Gian rips Tsunade in half (I'm not), then she just summons Katsuyu to stick her body back together again. It's not a big deal.

Since Kakuzu is just a mass of tendrils Tsunade would probably have to summon Katsuyu anyway in order to finish off a messed Kakuzu with an acid bath.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

> Icegaze said:
> 
> 
> > so then u could not provide a scan where you claimed orochimaru made the assertion then
> ...



*@Likeaboss:* Oh my god, wow, I am not debating the mechanics of her Byakogu at all. Are you all out of your minds? My purpose was to establish that "the heart" is source of chakra network and once severed or removed, she would lose the ability to form chakra therefore unable to sustain her jutsu at all.

*@Icegaze: *Madara never stabbed her in the heart, he stabbed her in the gut, in order for her to be stabbed in the heart, she would need to be stabbed in the left boob. Furthermore, I'm speaking about complete removal of her heart, which Kakuzu can do with his threads and because there is nothing left, she cannot regrow a heart.


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## Veracity (Jun 5, 2015)

And are you out of your mind ? She doesn't need to form chakra from her chakra network of she can pour the chakra from her deal directly across her body regenerating everything. She easily regenerates a heart if Byakago is already activated seeing as the chakra from her forehead goes across her body. Even if her system was shut down, the chakra across her body automatically heals her injuries.


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> And are you out of your mind ? She doesn't need to form chakra from her chakra network of she can pour the chakra from her deal directly across her body regenerating everything. She easily regenerates a heart if Byakago is already activated seeing as the chakra from her forehead goes across her body. Even if her system was shut down, the chakra across her body automatically heals her injuries.



what he said 

am done with these unsubstantiated claims 

kishi has tsunade say somethign in the manga and has her set her limits 

ryuzaki decides to invent others


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 6, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> And are you out of your mind ? She doesn't need to form chakra from her chakra network of she can pour the chakra from her deal directly across her body regenerating everything. She easily regenerates a heart if Byakago is already activated seeing as the chakra from her forehead goes across her body. Even if her system was shut down, the chakra across her body automatically heals her injuries.



What happens when she runs out or is exhausted?


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## N120 (Jun 6, 2015)

Tsuande: taijutsu with chakra, byakugo healing and summon.
Kakuzu: 5 elements, 5 hearts,  can split into 5 bodies and has experience fighting shodai.

Kakuzus problem is cqc and her regeneration abilities.

Tsuande however needs to watch out for his elemental attacks and as adept as he is at cqc he is a mid ranged fighter who is a weary and seasoned fighter with far more experience than her.

kakuzu wins if he splits his bodies and uses combo attacks, tsunade can dodge one or two attack from range but there's just too many. Kakakuzu has shown he can combine to magnify his elemental attacks and/or use multiple bodies to guide his opponent into his next attack. If he can keep his distance, he wins. Tsuande has no way of defeating them all in cqc and while she can alway heal herself fatigue and multiple traps will wear her down.

Tsuande wins if she can close the gap between them and take this battle into cqc. But she must do this 5 times, which is unlikely to happen. Katusyu may help but it's unlikely she would have anything to contribute in combat. Her acid attack is only good for close range defence.

Best case scenario is that's it's a draw.


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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2015)

N120 said:


> Tsuande: taijutsu with chakra, byakugo healing and summon.
> Kakuzu: 5 elements, 5 hearts,  can split into 5 bodies and has experience fighting shodai.
> 
> Kakuzus problem is cqc and her regeneration abilities.
> ...



why would combined elemental attacks be able to do anything to her that she cannot heal from 

even if all 5 elements hit. it would still be less damage that 2 susanoo swords in the gut therefore she heals easily 

these are blasts the likes  of ino could react to


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## Veracity (Jun 6, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> What happens when she runs out or is exhausted?



If she's chakra exhausted and her heart is taken out then she dies... She might be able to survive longer than most Shinobi but she eventually die because her regeneration stems from chakra. But Kakuzu is never chakra exhausting Tsuande to the point where she can't regenerate:


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## N120 (Jun 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> why would combined elemental attacks be able to do anything to her that she cannot heal from
> 
> even if all 5 elements hit. it would still be less damage that 2 susanoo swords in the gut therefore she heals easily
> 
> these are blasts the likes  of ino could react to



They're Different types of attacks.

Being cut in half =/= to being burnt alive =/=electrocuted=/=drowned.

She can defend herself against weapons, elements and combinations are for more tricky.

And she's not going to brush off five elemental combination attacks. Sasunoo left her in two pieces and madara just left when he got bored. He could easily have finished the jib if he cared to.

Kakuzu can inflict real damage and I doubt he'd be in as playful mood as madara.

Healing does little for her here in terms of battling ability.


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

N120 said:


> They're Different types of attacks.
> 
> Being cut in half =/= to being burnt alive =/=electrocuted=/=drowned.
> 
> ...



Yasaka Magmata, Sussano's strongest offensive attack, hardly opened her skin. Kakuzus elemental attacks lack the hype or feats to exhaust Tsuandes Byakago. She heals through all his attacks and stomps his face in.


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## N120 (Jun 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Yasaka Magmata, Sussano's strongest offensive attack, hardly opened her skin. Kakuzus elemental attacks lack the hype or feats to exhaust Tsuandes Byakago. She heals through all his attacks and stomps his face in.



She'll just walks up to him and casually stomps his face in? Kakuzu has five hearts, he can evade her simply by splitting bodies and keeping his distance.

Like I said, she can evade his mid range attacks, but you can't dodge all of them. She's outnumbered and can easily be outmanoeuvred.

Her healing is handy, but while it helps her recover it doesn't help her improve her chances to hit him which give Kakuzu the upper hand.

Mid/long range fighter will always give tsuande a hard time.


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2015)

N120 said:


> They're Different types of attacks.
> 
> Being cut in half =/= to being burnt alive =/=electrocuted=/=drowned.
> 
> ...



You know drowned is fan fic right 
Please show me where Kakuzu uses water element or worse one capable of drowning tsunade 
I'll wait 

Your right all those elemental damage are <<<< having your organs destroyed by chakra blades 

So she survives them 

Unless u think someone can survive being split in half and come back from that 
Yet die to having their skin burnt , or being electrocuted ( best thing that can do is stop her heart and burn her ), Atsugi at best will throw her far away so not worth mentioning


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

N120 said:


> She'll just walks up to him and casually stomps his face in? Kakuzu has five hearts, he can evade her simply by splitting bodies and keeping his distance.
> 
> Like I said, she can evade his mid range attacks, but you can't dodge all of them. She's outnumbered and can easily be outmanoeuvred.
> 
> ...



Chakra to the feet method + super enhanced strength + Byakago, allow her to outright flicker through his attacks. And as far as I'm concerned, kakazu lacks the feats to assume his flicker is on par with Tsuande. Her and KATSUYU eventually create an opening for Tsuande to land an attack, which essentially incapacitates him prolly from the massive amounts of blunt force trauma.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> If she's chakra exhausted and her heart is taken out then she dies... She might be able to survive longer than most Shinobi but she eventually die because her regeneration stems from chakra. But Kakuzu is never chakra exhausting Tsuande to the point where she can't regenerate:


Yeah, because despite having less chakra, Tsunade will run out later than Kakuzu who has more. :rofl



N120 said:


> Tsuande: taijutsu with chakra, byakugo healing and summon.
> Kakuzu: 5 elements, 5 hearts,  can split into 5 bodies and has experience fighting shodai.
> 
> Kakuzus problem is cqc and her regeneration abilities.
> ...



Basically how I see it, she lacks the speed to make it a decent close quarters fight.


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2015)

@Ryuzaki

 if you think kakuzu has more chakra than tsunade who has stored 2.5 years worth of chakra 

any part 2 version of tsunade easily has more chakra than kakuzu and by a good distance

Its odd you say she lacks the speed yet was able to jump and kick madara who was a good distance away after Mei water dragon. 

also u forget her shit blitzing a V3 susanoo clone. being able to defend doesn't mean u want to be smacked to the ground. She managed to do that. 

if sakura feats are anything to go by we have seen how byakuyo basically makes her hopped on roids. 

what are kakuzu speed feats anyway? am curious...I guarantee I can provide better ones for tsunade


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 7, 2015)

Kakuzu has a 4.5 in speed, while Tsunade has a 3.5. That puts Kakuzu just one point ahead, so she can definitely still keep him on his toes in close combat, especially since she's a point ahead of him in taijutsu.

Ultimately, Kakuzu has no knowledge of Tsunade's huge strength, which puts the match greatly in her favour. Kakuzu's main method of attack is _using_ _his_ _tendrils_ _to_ _immobilise_ _his_ _opponents_. He frequently utilised this method of attack in every battle he ever entered. When he inevitably does it against Tsunade, he quickly gets the _Orochimaru treatment_. 

Then, unless you believe that Doton: Domu is stronger than Susano'o, she smashes right through Kakuzu's defenses and gives him significant injuries. The sheer force of her attack could damage all five of his hearts at once.

His elemental blasts, if you think he'll last long enough to even use them, are powerless before Tsunade's regeneration. It isn't like she can't dodge the majority of them anyway, just as Kakashi and Team 10 did.

This isn't even factoring in Katsuyu, whose presence makes it a one-sided victory for the Godaime.​​


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

@ryuzaki

But that wasn't the debate... The argument was if Tsuande could regenerate her heart being plucked out. And she can. 

And no he has much less chakra than Tsuande. Tsuandes base level of chakra is close to his, but she happens to also store chakra everyday into her forehead, so I doubt Kakuzu is outlasting. War Arc Tsuande already has more chakra than him, Pain arc Tsuande has Bjuii level chakra easily.  And there's the fact that Tsuandes chakra control is > to kakuzus, so she uses her techniques more efficiently regardless


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> @ryuzaki
> 
> But that wasn't the debate... The argument was if Tsuande could regenerate her heart being plucked out. And she can.
> 
> And no he has much less chakra than Tsuande. Tsuandes base level of chakra is close to his, but she happens to also store chakra everyday into her forehead, so I doubt Kakuzu is outlasting. War Arc Tsuande already has more chakra than him, Pain arc Tsuande has Bjuii level chakra easily.  And there's the fact that Tsuandes chakra control is > to kakuzus, so she uses her techniques more efficiently regardless


She cannot regenerate a heart if it's completely plucked out, it's physically impossible for her to do so. Even if she has chakra stored in head, the cells within her body need a baseline in order to grow off and without a heart, there is no baseline. Furthermore, there's the fact that heart cells naturally never divide, which is why when you work out, your muscle never grow in number but grow in size.

And for the record, while she may have chakra stored in her head, in the databook she is still rated much lower. And consider the 5 hearts have their very own chakra natures, Kakuzu technically has the stamina of five different people to begin with. As to who has more if you include the extra buffs, my bet would be Kakuzu.


Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakuzu has a 4.5 in speed, while Tsunade has a 3.5. That puts Kakuzu just one point ahead, *so she can definitely still keep him on his toes *in close combat, especially since she's a point ahead of him in taijutsu.
> 
> Ultimately, Kakuzu has no knowledge of Tsunade's huge strength, which puts the match greatly in her favour. Kakuzu's main method of attack is _using_ _his_ _tendrils_ _to_ _immobilise_ _his_ _opponents_. He frequently utilised this method of attack in every battle he ever entered. When he inevitably does it against Tsunade, he quickly gets the _Orochimaru treatment_.
> 
> ...


There is not to keep her on her toes, Kakashi with the sharingan was rated a 4.5, while Itachi was rated a 5.0, even with the sharingan the best he could do against Itachi was play defense, leaving little room for offense. Tsunade is a full point lower than her, her speed is at best Naruto's level when he fought Kakuzu. He was caught trying to get close range to her and she would be caught much in the same manner.

I also find it likely that he does have an idea who Tsunade as is, as she is the Hokage and is known in many circles. Sasori, a member of the Akatsuki also know Tsunade by reputation but in retrospect, Tsunade doesn't know that Kakuzu has five hearts either, she'll likely get blindsided to when she lets her guard down as well.

As for how effective his elemental techniques are, I'd say Raiton Gian would paralyze her and slice her in half. It's easily his strongest move and she has no feasible method of blocking/neutralizing it. Kakashi had to use a double raikiri, she'll have to take the hit and in the time she spends recovering from it, would leave her open to attack from Kakuzu's threads.



Icegaze said:


> @Ryuzaki
> 
> if you think kakuzu has more chakra than tsunade who has stored 2.5 years worth of chakra
> 
> ...


Kakuzu has the chakra of five different people, I'd say he's got the edge over her.

And it's odd that you say that because Madara didn't give a shit as he was toying with the kages through and through. I've told you this many times on many different threads. 

Kakuzu doesn't have much because he fought against someone faster than him, so I don't see him blitzing Kakashi. However, as I mentioned above to GT, she would eventually get caught by the threads much in same manner as Naruto did.

I will say this, despite having the strength she does, I don't see her breaking Domu either, it was explicitly stated to be overpowered via a raiton technique.


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

@Ryuzaki
We have already been over her regenerating her heart and you haven't refuted my earlier points. So either refute them or accept that she can lol.

Tsuande has a 4 compared to his 4.5. That's not much lower at all really lol. And do you have any proof that Kakuzu has 5x the amount of chakra( assuming you prove that the fodder he took over had chakra comparable to himself or a Senju/Uzumaki like tsuande), because it seems that he can just use 5 different abilities from 5 separate entities. I mean if you have proof then I'll agree. Then there's the obvious fact that Tsuande has top tier chakra control being able to store chakra in her forehead and activate Byakago. Her chakra efficiency shits on Kakuzus by hype and feats.


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## N120 (Jun 7, 2015)

This is getting silly, regeneration =/= Impenetrable tank. Yes she can heal, but she takes damage and depending on the damage inflicted the healing processes may vary. *It certainly doesn't make her immune to damage or defeat.*

You'd think the way people are brushing off kakuzu attack as if she can run through an incenrator and come out the other side in one piece, unsinged. The reality is she will endure the damage and heal from it, IF she can heal from it.

Case in point, her healing has limitations as we saw when she fought pain, soon after said battle she lost her byakugo and fell into a coma.its exhaustive.  Another example being her fight with madara where she was cut in half, she didn't grow a new torso and legs, she had to be put back together and then heal both halves. It's a process.

The process in both cases differed, first being fatigue which caused her body to shut down as part of the recovery process and the second being severed in half which required katsuyu to heal and maintain the severed half until help came along. (Yes I know she was down io chakra, but I'm makin the point that byakugo=/=immunity)

This won't mean kakuzu wins, far from it. But does it give him a chance? Sure does. 

Tsuandes strength is cqc, kakuzus is mid range. One will try to close the gap while the other will try to become as vague as possible by maintaining a healthy distance to analyse the opponent, and if need be split his body into 5 and flank tsunade.

There will be a constant stream of damage which tsuande has to constantly endure and recover from, that's taxing and exhausting. She will need to close the gap and attack each body in cqc while being constantly harassed by these attacks which isn't going to be easy. It's an uphill challenge for her, a bad match up.

The only counter I can think of is for tsuande to summon katsuyu and have her take the brunt of kakuzus attack while she remains cocooned/shielded and it'll also give her a good defensive measure as katsuyu can spit acid when kakazu gets too close. But if kakuzu remains at a distance, he will inflict damage and take none.

Like I said, in this scenario where no one advances the best outcome is a draw with kakuzu having the upper hand as he is able attack freely but won't want risk falling into a cqc with the tsunade/katsuyu, and tsuande will realise she can't keep chasing him and taking damage.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 8, 2015)

The funny part is that she already went through a transport that everyone bar the Third Raikage was supposed to be ripped into pieces by before they came out on the other side, and yet remained in one piece (for the most part) and immediately threw a kick at the Madara flying in her direction.

What feats do Kakuzu's elemental blasts have again?

Busting up dead, hollow trees?

Being tanked by Hidan?

I think she'll be fine.


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## N120 (Jun 8, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The funny part is that she already went through a transport that everyone bar the Third Raikage was supposed to be ripped into pieces by before they came out on the other side, and yet remained in one piece (for the most part) and immediately threw a kick at the Madara flying in her direction.
> 
> What feats do Kakuzu's elemental blasts have again?
> 
> ...



She was healing through out the whole process, this shows while she can heal she is vulnerable not immune.

And as i said before, different attacks will require different process of recovery. In the same fight you bought up, she healed from the transport but was later cut in half. It didn't stop her from being severed, nor taking damage from the tranport tech. that's not what byakugo does.

So, kakuzus attacks will cause damage, and yes she will heal from them soon after. But a constant stream of different elements bombarding her will exhaust her mentally and physically. This will only create more openings for kakuzu to exploit.

Being in constant process of taking damage and healing doesn't sound like she'll be fine.


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## Ashi (Jun 8, 2015)

Tsunade wins due to immortality


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 8, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> @Ryuzaki
> We have already been over her regenerating her heart and you haven't refuted my earlier points. So either refute them or accept that she can lol.
> 
> Tsuande has a 4 compared to his 4.5. That's not much lower at all really lol. And do you have any proof that Kakuzu has 5x the amount of chakra( assuming you prove that the fodder he took over had chakra comparable to himself or a Senju/Uzumaki like tsuande), because it seems that he can just use 5 different abilities from 5 separate entities. I mean if you have proof then I'll agree. Then there's the obvious fact that Tsuande has top tier chakra control being able to store chakra in her forehead and activate Byakago. Her chakra efficiency shits on Kakuzus by hype and feats.


We've already been through Tsunade's limitations and as N and I discussed above, there are obvious limitations. I went ahead and factored in from the medical perspective, which you clearly ignored again. I've already presented my case, you are free to believe what you want. I will not pursue this any further.

He has five hearts and they work independently of each other, they are for all intensive purposes 5 different chakra systems. If Kakuzu were controlling them with his chakra they would be linked to him and the chakra would be visible to someone with a sharingan (e.g. Kakashi). Kakuzu never felt a strain on his chakra regardless of what he used or did. 

Kakuzu performed several elemental techniques, one succession after the other and it seems those beasts are able to autonomously fire jutsu of their own accord. He did not feel any tiredness or exhaustion while fighting Kakashi or Naruto. Despite his best efforts, Kakuzu still had enough chakra to continue fight after Kakashi and co. gouged out a couple of hearts. 

His stamina is not going to be an issue, however, Tsunade in prolonged fights or exhaustive fights where she would take heavy damage has passed out on two different occasions. Despite being a senju, her stamina is still low, for senju standards at the very least. Otherwise, she would have been an automatic roof tier.


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## Veracity (Jun 8, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> We've already been through Tsunade's limitations and as N and I discussed above, there are obvious limitations. I went ahead and factored in from the medical perspective, which you clearly ignored again. I've already presented my case, you are free to believe what you want. I will not pursue this any further.
> 
> He has five hearts and they work independently of each other, they are for all intensive purposes 5 different chakra systems. If Kakuzu were controlling them with his chakra they would be linked to him and the chakra would be visible to someone with a sharingan (e.g. Kakashi). Kakuzu never felt a strain on his chakra regardless of what he used or did.
> 
> ...



And I've already refuted your claims again and again and again. Even IceGaze has been refuting your points. You act as if you've been a step ahead of everyone, and we're struggling to refute your points, as if the very opposite isn't happening lmao?

You keep on factoring in these medical perspectives as if KISHI does himself ? You outright stated that you couldn't actually regenerate sections of your heart, and instead you heal scars, and this would critically weaken someone's heart function right? Please do explain how someone like Tsuande who has had her heart diced apart many times, is able to regenerate the damage of said attacks with no physical handicap? She even takes this further by stimulating the process of enzymes( shorting her life via canon) and even chakra exhausts herself by healing an entire village, yet pops up out of her coma, regains her title of Hokage during a war and battles Madara uchiha with her best physical stats/feats to date. Do explain that? Pretty sure Kishi doesn't give a darn about medical perspective all the time. It's the reason madras gets sand blasted across every part of his body( organs, muscles, veins) yet basically heals the damage causally. It's the same reason Tsuande fights Sussano clones with her nerve cells destroyed( and unable to regenerate with the Sussano sword impeded in her spinal cord), and breaths healthy( and fights) with her intercostal lungs. And as FR posted, it's even the reason why every single part of her body is attacked by high speed transportation, and she's still able to come out the warp by kicking Madara under his guard. So yeah I'm done with you factoring in "medical perspectives," when Tsuande cannot be compared to an actual human. We're debating manga here anyway, Naruto can create a god damn eye casually. 

Kakuzus hearts going around and firing a ( couple) of B-ranked elemental justu isn't enough to assume his chakra reserves are as high as you think. Facts are, he never was shown in a prolonged fight, and a good deal of his Kakashi battle he was using Taijustu and tendrils. 

What are the to different occasions that Tsuande has passed out on? Let me break this down to you considering you seem to overlook anything regarding Tsuande. Tsuande passed out against Madara with 2 weeks of saved up chakra yes. But you seem to not remember that she was constantly chakra boosting and healing her teammates( as the medical ninja of course) while also taking on Madara head on with Byakago activated. She was put in a situation where she clearly going to be exhausted much faster than anyone else( as a taijjstu user she was cornered by 5 auto regenerating Sussano clones which she wasn't powerful enough to bust through and needed Byakago to heal the damage. Then add the fact that she already wasted chakra on chakra boosting her teammates and healing them.) Now let me add the fact that the Madara vs Kage battle( before Tsuande was chakra replenished) lasted hours. Which is much longer then kakuzu has been shown fighting. The second time she was knocked into coma can't even be compared to Kakuzu, as 3.5 years stored up Tsuande has FARRRRRR more chakra than Kakazu. It's implied to take a good deal of chakra to heal a single Shinobi. Tsuande summoned Katsuyu, then singlehandedly used SS to heal tens of thousands of Shinobi. That's a bjuii level chakra feat. Shits crazy.

And Tsuande doesn't have poor chakra feats. I'm pretty sure her chakra is just about as good as any Senju. But it doesn't really matter much. She could have super low chakra, but the fact that she stores chakra everyday in her forehead, would mean after while, she would have an insane amount of chakra. Then mixing that with her top tier chakra control ? Hella chakra .


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## Icegaze (Jun 8, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> She cannot regenerate a heart if it's completely plucked out, it's physically impossible for her to do so. Even if she has chakra stored in head, the cells within her body need a baseline in order to grow off and without a heart, there is no baseline. Furthermore, there's the fact that heart cells naturally never divide, which is why when you work out, your muscle never grow in number but grow in size.
> 
> And for the record, while she may have chakra stored in her head, in the databook she is still rated much lower. And consider the 5 hearts have their very own chakra natures, Kakuzu technically has the stamina of five different people to begin with. As to who has more if you include the extra buffs, my bet would be Kakuzu.
> There is not to keep her on her toes, Kakashi with the sharingan was rated a 4.5, while Itachi was rated a 5.0, even with the sharingan the best he could do against Itachi was play defense, leaving little room for offense. Tsunade is a full point lower than her, her speed is at best Naruto's level when he fought Kakuzu. He was caught trying to get close range to her and she would be caught much in the same manner.
> ...



how can threads hold someone with her physical strength even for fractions of seconds
Domu by feats and hype is beneath susanoo. Tsunade broke rib cage version 

Domu breaks casually 

I see you talking about baseline and some more BS science. Kishi doesnt care and stated on panel she can regrow organs therefore she can. simple as that

its odd you try and take those statements away. yet claim gian is capable of doing something its never done or even hyped to do. the bias is clear here

@likeboss 
when you say even Icegaze that sounds like a jab? why though?


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## Veracity (Jun 8, 2015)

Didn't mean it like that. Just meant it as if he isn't refuting either of us.


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## Icegaze (Jun 8, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Didn't mean it like that. Just meant it as if he isn't refuting either of us.



true true
for me what I don't get is the limits to tsunade ability has already been stated on panel 

kakuzu cannot push her to such limits

same for sasori, hidan, orochimaru, kakuzu

@Ryuzaki when you add the BS science stuff and dispute kishi panels. is clearly just as wrong as me saying katsuyu spits acid on kakuzu main body and the detached hearts die as well 

that's the equivalent to what you are doing


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 8, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> She cannot regenerate a heart if it's completely plucked out, it's physically impossible for her to do so. Even if she has chakra stored in head, the cells within her body need a baseline in order to grow off and without a heart, there is no baseline. Furthermore, there's the fact that heart cells naturally never divide, which is why when you work out, your muscle never grow in number but grow in size.



She didn't need a 'baseline' to regrow her pancreas, kidneys, duodenum or any of the other vital organs destroyed by Madara's _giant_ _swords_. Her heart shouldn't be any different.



> And for the record, while she may have chakra stored in her head, in the databook she is still rated much lower.



The databook only goes off base stats, it doesn't factor in boosts like Byakugou, Sage Mode, KCM etc. Tsunade's base stamina without her seal is a solid 4/5, and the amount of chakra she has on top of that with Byakugou depends on how long she's been storing chakra inside of it.



> And consider the 5 hearts have their very own chakra natures, Kakuzu technically has the stamina of five different people to begin with. As to who has more if you include the extra buffs, my bet would be Kakuzu.



When was it stated that Kakuzu inherited all of the chakra of the people he killed? He inherited their chakra natures, but taking their heart doesn't suck _all_ of their chakra out with it, the chakra will mostly just die with them. Kakuzu has a 4.5/5 in stamina in the databook, so Tsunade with her Byakugou still shits on him in that regard.



> There is not to keep her on her toes, Kakashi with the sharingan was rated a 4.5, while Itachi was rated a 5.0, even with the sharingan the best he could do against Itachi was play defense, leaving little room for offense. Tsunade is a full point lower than her, her speed is at best Naruto's level when he fought Kakuzu. He was caught trying to get close range to her and she would be caught much in the same manner.



And once caught, she grabs his tendrils, reels him into CQC and one shots him in the face. 



> I also find it likely that he does have an idea who Tsunade as is, as she is the Hokage and is known in many circles. Sasori, a member of the Akatsuki also know Tsunade by reputation but in retrospect, Tsunade doesn't know that Kakuzu has five hearts either, she'll likely get blindsided to when she lets her guard down as well.



Knowing she is the Hokage does not give him automatic knowledge of her abilities. He knows that she is a Sannin, a medic and uses slugs, so no, he won't underestimate her. But he uses the same methods against every opponent he ever fights. Even against Copy-ninja Kakashi and the Nine-tails Jinchuuriki, Kakuzu was thoughtlessly firing his tendrils at them. When he inevitably does this to Tsunade, its game over. On the other hand, Tsunade isn't going to get blind-sided by his masks because:

a) Kakuzu will probably die before he ever gets to release them from his body
b) They aren't fast enough to 'blind-side' her
c) She has Katsuyu (not that she's really needed here)
d) Tsunade can dodge or tank/regenerate from all of Kakuzu's elemental blasts



> As for how effective his elemental techniques are, I'd say Raiton Gian would paralyze her and slice her in half.



When Tsunade's spine got severed she wasn't paralysed, and when she got transported across a country inside of a lightning bolt, she wasn't paralysed either. Regarding durability, Mabui's Lightning Transfer was supposed to shred her into bacon, which it failed to do. Madara's Yasaka Magatama also failed to inflict any visible damage to Tsunade at all, even though it smashed into her chest at point blank range. Kakuzu's featless lightning bolt is not miraculously chopping her in half.



> Kakashi had to use a double raikiri, she'll have to take the hit and in the time she spends recovering from it, would leave her open to attack from Kakuzu's threads.



"the time she spends recovering from it"

As if she needs anymore than a second to recover from an attack of that level. She regenerated two giant gaping holes in her abdomen within seconds, and that damage is worse than Kakuzu's featless lightning bolt is able to inflict upon her.​​


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 20, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> She didn't need a 'baseline' to regrow her pancreas, kidneys, duodenum or any of the other vital organs destroyed by Madara's _giant_ _swords_. Her heart shouldn't be any different.


They all have a baseline present within the tissue, with her ability all she needed to do was speed up the regeneration process (e.g. increasing cell mitosis and etc). However, most of the gastrointestinal organs (e.g. stomach, small intestines, large intestines) have a high rate replication due to the foods we digest, it's far easier for to repair something that has a high rate of replication. For instance, if she was shot in the liver, it would require more chakra because most liver cells spend time outside of the natural cell cycle.

The argument was about the heart, since Kakuzu only removes hearts of the shinobi he takes. If her heart was taken, I do not believe she could regrow another due to multiple reasons:

A. Heart cells never grow back (medical fact, just like how eyes or limbs cannot)
B. Assuming that hearts had replicative function, she would still need baseline tissue in order to regrow.


Godaime Tsunade said:


> The databook only goes off base stats, it doesn't factor in boosts like Byakugou, Sage Mode, KCM etc. Tsunade's base stamina without her seal is a solid 4/5, and the amount of chakra she has on top of that with Byakugou depends on how long she's been storing chakra inside of it.


I was comapring base stats, but I do believe that Kakuzu has more chakra due to his extra features.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> When was it stated that Kakuzu inherited all of the chakra of the people he killed? He inherited their chakra natures, but taking their heart doesn't suck _all_ of their chakra out with it, the chakra will mostly just die with them. Kakuzu has a 4.5/5 in stamina in the databook, so Tsunade with her Byakugou still shits on him in that regard.


The heart is the epicenter of chakra, these chakra minions moved on their own accord without any links to Kakuzu. At some point when Kakuzu was damaged, he needed his heart to be replaced, so if they were connected, they would have stopped functioning when Kakashi raikiri'd him in the heart or when Hidan accidentally killed him.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> And once caught, she grabs his tendrils, reels him into CQC and one shots him in the face.


The tendrils seem to have a great tensile strength, not something that you can easily outmuscle, Kakashi ripped through it with the raiton element and they seem to be numerous on top that. Again, I don't think her strength enough to penetrate Domu. CQC, while she has the upper hand in strength, she does not in speed and that will be a deciding factor if she can land a punch or not.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Knowing she is the Hokage does not give him automatic knowledge of her abilities. He knows that she is a Sannin, a medic and uses slugs, so no, he won't underestimate her. But he uses the same methods against every opponent he ever fights. Even against Copy-ninja Kakashi and the Nine-tails Jinchuuriki, Kakuzu was thoughtlessly firing his tendrils at them. When he inevitably does this to Tsunade, its game over. On the other hand, Tsunade isn't going to get blind-sided by his masks because:
> 
> a) Kakuzu will probably die before he ever gets to release them from his body
> b) They aren't fast enough to 'blind-side' her
> ...


Point A is invalid, because his immediate knee-jerk reaction is to use Domu, which will guard him against her physical assaults. Best case scenario for Tsunade is he loses his footing and gets rammed into the wall. He took FRS head on (without Domu) and was still living after. Kakashi had to finish him off with another Raikiri. I don't think her punching power has the same piercing factor that Naruto's FRS does and to boot, she still lacks the proper speed to hit him. 

Point B/Last Paragraph; are shit as well, because 3 of the 5 have an all around jutsu that will most likely catch her. If not the katons or fuutons, she still has no answer for the raiton gian. It took Kakashi a double raikiri in order to get out of that. The attack will paralyze her for a moment and since it's a piercing attack it will cut her too. While the katon and fuuton alone may not cause the damage necessary to kill her, the combination will take longer to recover from. Also, just as a side note, the only reason Kakashi had survived the fuuton was due to his sharingan and she doesn't have that.

Point D, I will concur partially (she's not dodging them, she doesn't have the proper speed to do so), aside from the raiton, I don't believe Kakuzu has the power to kill her instantly, but at the same time, he will be pushing her recovery to the limit, if he starts attacking in combination and she fights the way she normally does, taking it head on. It will exhaust her considerably, especially if she has to take on a combination of elemental attacks. The greatest problem with her healing jutsu are the limitations of the cell mitosis.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> "the time she spends recovering from it"
> 
> As if she needs anymore than a second to recover from an attack of that level. She regenerated two giant gaping holes in her abdomen within seconds, and that damage is worse than Kakuzu's featless lightning bolt is able to inflict upon her.[/indent][/justify]


Just because she has devised a medical ninjutsu that allows her to auto-heal, she still has to take the attack head on and time to heal from it properly. She'll burn out before Kakuzu does and then it's checkmate.




Icegaze said:


> how can threads hold someone with her physical strength even for fractions of seconds
> Domu by feats and hype is beneath susanoo. Tsunade broke rib cage version
> 
> Domu breaks casually
> ...


Kakuzu's base durability is shown to be more durable than Tsunade's punch. Her punching power, while powerful isn't as finesse or have the piercing power that Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken has. Despite Kakuzu, taking that attack head on, he was still alive afterwards. If you give him Doton: Domu on top of that, she can try all she wants, the best case scenario for her is that Kakuzu loses his footing, assuming she gets lucky enough to bridge the speed gap, she no doubt would need to.

It was stated that she could regrow organs that were damaged, not completely missing.

*Apologies for the late reply, was on vacation all last week.*


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 20, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> And I've already refuted your claims again and again and again. Even IceGaze has been refuting your points. You act as if you've been a step ahead of everyone, and we're struggling to refute your points, as if the very opposite isn't happening lmao?
> 
> You keep on factoring in these medical perspectives as if KISHI does himself ? You outright stated that you couldn't actually regenerate sections of your heart, and instead you heal scars, and this would critically weaken someone's heart function right? Please do explain how someone like Tsuande who has had her heart diced apart many times, is able to regenerate the damage of said attacks with no physical handicap? She even takes this further by stimulating the process of enzymes( shorting her life via canon) and even chakra exhausts herself by healing an entire village, yet pops up out of her coma, regains her title of Hokage during a war and battles Madara uchiha with her best physical stats/feats to date. Do explain that? Pretty sure Kishi doesn't give a darn about medical perspective all the time. It's the reason madras gets sand blasted across every part of his body( organs, muscles, veins) yet basically heals the damage causally. It's the same reason Tsuande fights Sussano clones with her nerve cells destroyed( and unable to regenerate with the Sussano sword impeded in her spinal cord), and breaths healthy( and fights) with her intercostal lungs. And as FR posted, it's even the reason why every single part of her body is attacked by high speed transportation, and she's still able to come out the warp by kicking Madara under his guard. So yeah I'm done with you factoring in "medical perspectives," when Tsuande cannot be compared to an actual human. We're debating manga here anyway, Naruto can create a god damn eye casually.
> 
> ...



When a heart is injured in order to compensate for injuries, the remaining undamaged cells generally grow in size (not in number) in order to make up for the loss. This process in a normal person would take approximately 2-3 weeks to garner, however, due to her healing ability, she can compensate much quicker. As far as I remember, it was Orochimaru made direct contact with her heart was once direct blow, from the looks of it, immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle and by resorting to her technique before any of the damage could be permanent. Of course she still lost some cells, but a clean slash like that with a sharp blade would at best leave a surgical scar, which many people can recover from without having complications. Her healing jutsu sped up the recovery phase which normally, under ideal medical conidtions is roughly 2-4 weeks, due to the lack of regrowth of tissue. 

However, my point also hinged on the fact that *once exhausted*, which she undoubtedly would be against Kakuzu. she would no longer possess the stamina required to regenerate. As for the nervous tissue, she didn't regenerate new nerve cells, nor was she paralyzed waist down due to the timely summoning of Katsuyu. At best, Katsuyu probably kept her lower half and upper half nerves active. Otherwise, if she had been left in that condition without summoning Katsuyu, she for all intensive purposes would have died.

Bijuu level chakra? You lost credibility once you reached that statement. "Being pretty sure" is not accurate, for a senju she has pretty shitty chakra. Base Kakuzu (4.5) > Base Tsunade (4.0), in terms of chakra according to the databooks. If we look at the fight against Madara, sure she was healing other members, but her reckless style is a major part of the reason why she reached the point of exhaustion that much quicker. The way she fights, with no care whatsoever, is what ultimately led to her downfall. If Dan hadn't saved her and restored her seal, she would have been shit out of luck and died much earlier than the other kages.

Her medical limitations are obvious, any tissue that doesn't have replicative function she cannot heal, otherwise no one in Konoha would go blind due to eye related trauma. Her ability to heal is limited by the human physiology, while Kishi doesn't take the time to explore that in depth, it is implied. For instance, if she had the ability to regrow limbs, neither Sasuke nor Naruto would have been offered arms crafted from Hashirama's cells as replacements.

A rank of a jutsu only determines it's difficulty to master not necessarily how powerful it would be.

*Apologies for the late reply, was on vacation all last week*


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Tsunade wins due to immortality



 Actually, Kakuzu was the one portrayed to be immortal.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 20, 2015)

N120 said:


> She was healing through out the whole process.



No. She went through the transport _in base_ and began regenerating _afterwards_.



> Being in constant process of taking damage and healing doesn't sound like she'll be fine.



Nah, I'm pretty sure she'll be able to _fight_ _through_ _it_ just fine.


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## Icegaze (Jun 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakuzu's base durability is shown to be more durable than Tsunade's punch. Her punching power, while powerful isn't as finesse or have the piercing power that Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken has. Despite Kakuzu, taking that attack head on, he was still alive afterwards. If you give him Doton: Domu on top of that, she can try all she wants, the best case scenario for her is that Kakuzu loses his footing, assuming she gets lucky enough to bridge the speed gap, she no doubt would need to.
> 
> It was stated that she could regrow organs that were damaged, not completely missing.
> 
> *Apologies for the late reply, was on vacation all last week.*



ok the first part of ur post is BS. please prove his base durability is shown to be more durable than tsunade punch. 

what on earth does that statement even mean? seriously ?

*FRS killed kakuzu twice though and disabled his 3rd heart. so I have no idea how u can use FRS to say kakuzu base tanks tsunade punch*

kakuzu used his threads and pumped shit loads of chakra just to end up dying 3 times. so no there is no adding domu durability to that

considering when he uses domu he cannot use jiongu! read Db please

kakuzu using domu will break since as I said its less durable by FEATS compared to rib cage susanoo


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> They all have a baseline present within the tissue, with her ability all she needed to do was speed up the regeneration process (e.g. increasing cell mitosis and etc). However, most of the gastrointestinal organs (e.g. stomach, small intestines, large intestines) have a high rate replication due to the foods we digest, it's far easier for to repair something that has a high rate of replication. For instance, if she was shot in the liver, it would require more chakra because most liver cells spend time outside of the natural cell cycle.
> 
> The argument was about the heart, since Kakuzu only removes hearts of the shinobi he takes. If her heart was taken, I do not believe she could regrow another due to multiple reasons:
> 
> ...



The pancreas, kidneys, stomach and all other vital organs never grow back, _medical fact_. That did not stop her growing them when they were _completely_ destroyed ie. there was certainly no baseline tissue left for them to grow from. 

Logically, yes, one of her organs would need tissue to divide from to recover properly. However this is not a medically or scientifically sound manga. Kishimoto has regular characters lose their heads and still be able to think, he has characters be chopped in half and miraculously live for several hours, he has characters function with threads in their bodies instead of blood and arteries. 

The fact of the matter is, that Tsunade's Byakugou, as with most things in this manga, does not follow regular real-life laws of medicine and science, so using that as an argument seems relatively pointless. 



> The heart is the epicenter of chakra, these chakra minions moved on their own accord without any links to Kakuzu. At some point when Kakuzu was damaged, he needed his heart to be replaced, so if they were connected, they would have stopped functioning when Kakashi raikiri'd him in the heart or when Hidan accidentally killed him.



So basically, you have no proof nor a solid argument as to why you think he inherits the chakra of people he kills? The hearts moving on their own accord proves nothing of how much chakra Kakuzu collects, if any, from his victims.



> I was comapring base stats, but I do believe that Kakuzu has more chakra due to his extra features.



Then you are very wrong.



> The tendrils seem to have a great tensile strength, not something that you can easily outmuscle, Kakashi ripped through it with the raiton element and they seem to be numerous on top that.



You can if you're strong enough to swing a several dozen ton sword around in mid-air. 



> Again, I don't think her strength enough to penetrate Domu.



Her strength shattered Susano'o, which is obviously stronger than Kakuzu's domu, or else it would have received significantly more praise than it did. Its best feats are blocking an explosive tag and Chouji's Human Boulder, neither of which come close to Tsunade's power. 



> CQC, while she has the upper hand in strength, she does not in speed and that will be a deciding factor if she can land a punch or not.



She has the upperhand in CQC in _taijutsu skill_, which is a massive deciding factor in whether or not she can land a hit. She's only a 0.5 behind Kakuzu in speed, but a full 1 point ahead in taijutsu. Don't exaggerate his speed, after all, even Shikamaru seemed capable of dodging one of his attacks.



> Point A is invalid, because his immediate knee-jerk reaction is to use Domu, which will guard him against her physical assaults.



No it won't. It might reduce the damage he takes, but his Domu is still shattered and if his masks are still in his body, they take critical damage. 



> Best case scenario for Tsunade is he loses his footing and gets rammed into the wall.



Or that he eats a punch to the jaw, which smashes through his Domu, and _then_ sends him crashing into a wall, which gives him even greater injuries. 



> He took FRS head on (without Domu) and was still living after. Kakashi had to finish him off with another Raikiri. I don't think her punching power has the same piercing factor that Naruto's FRS does and to boot, she still lacks the proper speed to hit him.



He might have still been living, but you're joking yourself if you think he was in any shape to fight. Even without Kakashi Raikiri'ing him, he was defeated. 



> Point B/Last Paragraph; are shit as well, because 3 of the 5 have an all around jutsu that will most likely catch her. If not the katons or fuutons,



Katon was dodged by fucking Ino-Shika-Cho. Tsunade laughs at it. Futon's best feat was breaking some wood off a few hollowed out trees, so her durability and regeneration would easily sustain her. 



> she still has no answer for the raiton gian. It took Kakashi a double raikiri in order to get out of that.



Kakashi had time to charge a couple of Raikiris and jump in front of it, and he wasn't using his sharingan to do so either. Shikamaru had time to open up a scroll and Chouji blocked. Your problem is that you're assuming that because Kakashi was able to react to/dodge these attacks, that they therefore require someone of Kakashi's speed to react to/dodge. In reality Kakuzu's elemental blasts have few speed feats, and someone as evasive and swift as Tsunade (she is significantly more swift and evasive than Shikamaru and Chouji) should be able to just duck out of the way of Raiton Gian.



> The attack will paralyze her for a moment and since it's a piercing attack it will cut her too.



Mabui's Heavenly Transfer Technique didn't paralyse her, and the cuts it gave her didn't stop her from kicking Madara Uchiha. When her spine got severed she wasn't paralysed either.



> While the katon and fuuton alone may not cause the damage necessary to kill her, the combination will take longer to recover from.



And who is to say that that combination would hit her? Kakashi wasn't overly pressured by the speed of that attack - he didn't need to use his top speed nor his sharingan to avoid it. Tsunade should be able to evade just as he did, albeit not as effortlessly. Even if she couldn't, for whatever reason, she just regenerates. Madara's Katons are obviously more powerful than Kakuzu's, but the injuries they inflicted to Tsunade's arms were healed in seconds, and Tsunade wasn't phased by the pain they caused her either. The combination attack wouldn't take long to recover from at all.



> Also, just as a side note, the only reason Kakashi had survived the fuuton was due to his sharingan and she doesn't have that.



Kakashi took part of that fuuton head on and he survived with minimal injuries. Tsunade's resilience to damage is much higher than Kakashi's, and she has Byakugou to boot, so that fuuton is child's play against someone of her calibre. 



> Point D, I will concur partially (she's not dodging them, she doesn't have the proper speed to do so), aside from the raiton, I don't believe Kakuzu has the power to kill her instantly, but at the same time, he will be pushing her recovery to the limit, if he starts attacking in combination and she fights the way she normally does, taking it head on. It will exhaust her considerably, especially if she has to take on a combination of elemental attacks. The greatest problem with her healing jutsu are the limitations of the cell mitosis.



Raiton Gian has no feats, so I don't know how you're able to assess that it could kill her instantly. He most definitely won't be pushing her recovery power to the limit either (he isn't Madara Uchiha).



> Just because she has devised a medical ninjutsu that allows her to auto-heal, she still has to take the attack head on and time to heal from it properly. She'll burn out before Kakuzu does and then it's checkmate.



Auto-healing takes all of seconds. The damage Kakuzu's attacks inflict is nowhere near as destructive as those of Madara's either, so they won't even take as long as to recover from. They're also slower than Madara's attacks, so dodging is easier.



> Kakuzu's base durability is shown to be more durable than Tsunade's punch.



No it isn't.



> It was stated that she could regrow organs that were damaged, not completely missing.



That was never specified in the Viz translation. Her performances in the manga have shown otherwise.​​


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## N120 (Jun 21, 2015)

Orochimaru survived tsuandes punch, Im not sure if we have seen anyone get killed by her punch so far.

In anycase, ryuzaki pretty much finished the debate, + rep.


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## Icegaze (Jun 21, 2015)

^lol and kakuzu elemental jutsu hasn't killed anyone and his jutus are something hidan tanks for sport 
am not sure how its going to affect tsunade in this match 

worse kakuzu is famous for not defeating any non fodder character 

see how that works?


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## N120 (Jun 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ^lol and kakuzu elemental jutsu hasn't killed anyone and his jutus are something hidan tanks for sport
> am not sure how its going to affect tsunade in this match
> 
> worse kakuzu is famous for not defeating any non fodder character
> ...



It's an uphill argument you've latched yourself onto.

 Tsuandes punch didn't kill a weakened orochimaru, and kakuzu has 5 hearts. That's canon.


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## Veracity (Jun 21, 2015)

N120 said:


> It's an uphill argument you've latched yourself onto.
> 
> Tsuandes punch didn't kill a weakened orochimaru, and kakuzu has 5 hearts. That's canon.



Part 1 tsunade with little chakra enhanced strength + no Byakago is >>>>> to part 2 Byakago boosted Tsuande in strength.

Also Oro has an elastic body which is good for taking blunt force attacks, even more evident by his performence against KNaruto. Byakago Tsunade would kill anyone with less Durabilty than a Ribcage Sussano( which is Kakuzu). She also obliterated Madara with blunt force, and Madara takes Ay's attacks without getting injured.

@Ryuzaki that post was honestly late af. I'm also a lazy/busy poster over the summer with all the work, and stuff I've been doing. I'll consider refuting it.


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## Reznor (Jun 21, 2015)

Feat-wise, Kakuzu is slower than Tsunade. 
Kakuzu relies on his invincibility too.

Tsunade kept up with Madara fight, Kakuzu can get pressured by Izumo and Kotetsu and can get blindsided by Wind Training Arc Naruto and Chouji.
Raikage, B and Naruto all believed that she could meaningfully contribute to the effort of stopping B and Naruto from leaving.

I don't think I should even have to entertain the relative durability/power between the two. Kakuzu's not standing up to an attack that breaks Madara's Susanoo and Tsunade's not dying from an attack that a basic Raikiri could counter.


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## N120 (Jun 21, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Part 1 tsunade with little chakra enhanced strength + no Byakago is >>>>> to part 2 Byakago boosted Tsuande in strength.
> 
> Also Oro has an elastic body which is good for taking blunt force attacks, even more evident by his performence against KNaruto. Byakago Tsunade would kill anyone with less Durabilty than a Ribcage Sussano( which is Kakuzu). She also obliterated Madara with blunt force, and Madara takes Ay's attacks without getting injured.



I didnt see much difference between part one Tsuande and part two Tsuande, the difference between them is negligible. she had access to her byakugo in both parts and utilised her super strength in both parts. The only area where you could argue that there may be some noticeable difference would be her combat ability which didn't really change a whole lot.

As for durability, like I stated, a weak oro lived through her attack and kakuzu has five hearts. He only needs to give up one before he changes tactics though I doubt he'd risk cqc with Tsuande anyway, especially when he is just as capable at mid ranged combat something Tsuande is not.

And that's all he has to do to not be defeated, keep a relatively safe distance and spam elemental attacks and ambush her, till he can find an opening.

And it's pretty much pointless bringing in madara, yes it highlights some of her feats but that was a piss take what madara did with the five Kages. It makes you wonder how much of what they did would be possible if madara actually gave a damn and took the fight seriously.


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

@Ryuzaki 
 
i never said tsunade punch will kill all of kakuzu 5 hearts. however he wasnt alive and well after FRS thats an outrageous and unnecessary claim

he got killed twice and his 3rd heart crippled. how is that alive and well? considering ino and yamato commented on how he was amazing chakra to tank the attack 

seriously dude. no effort there, you are trying to hard to troll

and his defensive feat there has nothign to do with domu which is what i am talking about 

domu and rib cage were directly compared. a metal sword didnt break on impact against domu. danzo metal kunai shattered when it hit newb sasuke rib cage susanoo


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## Veracity (Jun 22, 2015)

N120 said:


> I didnt see much difference between part one Tsuande and part two Tsuande, the difference between them is negligible. she had access to her byakugo in both parts and utilised her super strength in both parts. The only area where you could argue that there may be some noticeable difference would be her combat ability which didn't really change a whole lot.
> 
> As for durability, like I stated, a weak oro lived through her attack and kakuzu has five hearts. He only needs to give up one before he changes tactics though I doubt he'd risk cqc with Tsuande anyway, especially when he is just as capable at mid ranged combat something Tsuande is not.
> 
> ...



Just because you don't see a difference doesn't mean anything. There is a difference. There's a 20 year difference in which Tsuandes strength, endurance, and battle prowess decreased( the phobia thing too). You could see this by how much weaker her strikes were( compared to shattering ribcage sussano) and how she she turned old after that piss poor performance in the showdown. She also didn't have Byakago at that time, and even if she did, she didn't use Byakago to attack Oro, which increases her strength to my understanding.  Also her combat experience did change a lot, you thinking it didn't is just a baseless opinion.

Do you know why ORO can survive her Rusty And Non Byakago strikes ? Because his body is elastic. It's the same reason the Raikage could punt Dodai's rubber several meters away without actually damaging it.

Tsuande clearly defeats kakuzu. You and Ryuzaki are honestly the only ones debating that, but I'm pretty sure I've already proven that in earlier posts and that has nothing to do with these posts so I'm not gonna bother with it here. 

I'm not bringing up Madara's power, but rather his durabilty. He takes strikes from Ay without taking any damage, yet is obliterated by tsuande. Tsuande is >>>>> to AY in strength.


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## N120 (Jun 22, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Just because you don't see a difference doesn't mean anything. There is a difference. There's a 20 year difference in which Tsuandes strength, endurance, and battle prowess decreased( the phobia thing too). You could see this by how much weaker her strikes were( compared to shattering ribcage sussano) and how she she turned old after that piss poor performance in the showdown. She also didn't have Byakago at that time, and even if she did, she didn't use Byakago to attack Oro, which increases her strength to my understanding.  Also her combat experience did change a lot, you thinking it didn't is just a baseless opinion.



No, every assertion I have made is from the manga.



> Do you know why ORO can survive her Rusty And Non Byakago strikes ? Because his body is elastic. It's the same reason the Raikage could punt Dodai's rubber several meters away without actually damaging it.
> 
> Tsuande clearly defeats kakuzu. You and Ryuzaki are honestly the only ones debating that, but I'm pretty sure I've already proven that in earlier posts and that has nothing to do with these posts so I'm not gonna bother with it here.
> 
> I'm not bringing up Madara's power, but rather his durabilty. He takes strikes from Ay without taking any damage, yet is obliterated by tsuande. Tsuande is >>>>> to AY in strength.



You've done nothing but fangirl over tsuande. 

Cracking sasunoo ribcage, which the raikage has done isn't a counter to saying she won't hit kakazu or the fact that she'll even kill kakazu. Like you yourself acknowledged she couldn't kill orochimaru.

In anycase my argument isn't that tsuande isn't strong, she clearly is, but that she won't be able to defeat kakazu at mid ranged combat between 5 bodies.

I'm playing out a combat scenario not debating where each fits in powerscale.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 22, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm no biologist, but I know that no organs are capable of fully healing, except the liver. Replicative function = / = complete regeneration. The heart is capable of healing itself up until a point, just as her other organs are, but they cannot fully heal themselves.
> 
> Except half of her abdomen was gone. Literally gone. There was no microscopic tissue hiding inside of nothingness.


Well, regeneration occurs in all of the GI organs, including the pancreas, stomach and both small and large intestines. However, the organs are arranged in a manner where her wound wouldn't completely destroy any single organ, perhaps parts of some would be destroyed but there would still be enough tissue left. The stomach and the pancreas may suffer damage but they would recover, since both of these organs span is greater than the point of damage shown in the manga.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> No you haven't, you have speculated it. The creatures move around, but he could very well be controlling their movements with his own chakra (they come from his body). The nature of their movements was never specified. Entire chakra compounds aren't stored inside of the heart either, it passively runs through the entire circulatory system and can even be found in cells. Stealing someone's heart doesn't suck up all of their chakra, as you seem to assume it does.


However, if they were moving of Kakuzu's accord, they would have all dropped dead the moment Kakuzu went down after being struck down by his partner.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> You're insinuating that because Susano'o has been shattered and Domu has not, that therefore Susano'o cannot be a greater defense. That is not a solid argument. Domu's feats of durability are not impressive compared to what Susano'o endured (multiple strikes from Ei, Mei's lava and one of Tsunade's punches). If Domu had tanked attacks of equal strength and received equal hype and praise, I might agree, but alas it has not.


I base it on what was said about the technique and what was given to be it's weakness. Since it is an iron defense, it's going to exceptionally difficult to shatter, based solely on it's properties. It's easier to see Kakuzu losing his footing and getting thrown across.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> You're arguing that because FRS penetrated Domu that therefore it takes an attack of FRS's level to penetrate it. That is not necessarily the case, as an attack of a lower level could penetrate it too. And anyway, FRS and a blunt force attack like a punch are very difficult to compare because they inflict very different forms of damage.


Well, I never stated FRS broke Domu, FRS just broke through Kakuzu's *base durability*, I believe he lost his earth heart to Kakashi earlier in the fight. Even with that amount of damage, Kakuzu was still alive, that's an all around impressive feat considering how it shattered the rest of Naruto's arm. Which is why, I find it rather inconceivable that Tsunade would be able to inflict the proper amount of damage in order break his defense, let alone kill him. 

Furthermore, this is also completely based on her being able to bridge an overwhelming speed gap, which I don't think she'll be able to do. If it's one on one, she may get lucky but if the masks are out and she's trying to fight him. That's not happening at all. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> You have blatantly ignored every single point I just made. If Shikamaru and Chouji had time to react and move (take out a scroll and block, respectively), then why shouldn't Tsunade be able to dodge, _whenever she is significantly faster and more agile than those two put together?_ Ducking out of the way takes only fractions of a second longer to achieve than raising your arms in front of your face.


Even though, they didn't make it in time. All they did was reach for something, it doesn't account for body speed which is what the speed category counts for. Grabbing a scroll is not the same as moving your entire body out of the way.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakuzu is rated on his own physical speed, that has nothing to do with the speed of his ninjutsu. And yes, if theoretically Kakuzu decided to release all of his masks from his body and fight Tsunade with all of them at once, she might struggle to fight him in CQC while evading attacks from the masks at the same time, but that is realistically never going to happen, because as I've proven, he will first resort to reeling her into CQC by himself without his masks, and when he does, he gets one-shotted.


I doubt that, his knee jerk reaction was to release his masks and then he proceeded to close quarters combat, in fact he released techniques at a distance while his beasts roamed around. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Because it is a raiton, and it failed to paralyse her or wound her grievously. The technique you're talking about is also a raiton (I thought that was explicit in the manga, didn't really think I needed to point that out).


That jutsu isn't a raiton and the databook reaffirms this.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> On what basis do you make that claim? It took dozens of shinobi to extinguish one of his katons.
> 
> No it wouldn't. Madara's Katon power >> Kakuzu's.


Dozens of fodder shinobi, however Kakuzu doesn't fall into that category. The combo technique uses different natures it's superior in quality. This discussion is all predicated on the fact that we are only speaking of ET Madara. I think we both agree that the moment he became a sage, all of his base techniques also took a significant jump. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Since when did the sharingan give Kakashi greater durability?


The sharingan gave him the ability to recognize the attack and proceed with getting to safety earlier. The precognition ability of the sharingan is what Kakuzu was referring to, Kakashi's surprising durable but that's another discussion all together.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Madara Uchiha is infinitely stronger than Kakuzu, and even when he wasn't trying, he was leagues more powerful than that Akatsuki nub. He used ninjutsu against Tsunade through Susano'o, katons and mokuton, and she survived all of those things with regeneration. The featless Raiton: Gian is not magically wounding her more than Madara's jutsu did.


Raiton Gian, isn't entirely featless it took Kakashi two Raikiri's to properly cancel the technique out. Kakashi is not onl faster than her, he has the sharingan and the lightning element. Tsunade has shown none of those abilities, I don't see how she will be able to properly cancel it out. She's going to get chopped. Here's an excerpt from the databook about the technique:

Chainer said:


> Lightning Release: False Darkness* (雷遁・偽暗, Raiton: Gian)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, All ranges
> User: Kakuzu
> 
> ...






Godaime Tsunade said:


> Uploading a picture of that scan is far more effort than this debate is worth. But I'll give it to you just this once.


Fair enough.


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## ARGUS (Jun 22, 2015)

Tsunade wins this, mid diff, 

 -- elemental attacks are not either evaded by tsunade or are just withstood, as byakugou and katsuyu regenerate tsunade from any damage being dealt till tsunade eventually closes the distance 

 -- once she closes the distance, kakuzu gets his brains smashed till he turns into a smear on the ground,, inb4 people start giving domu the  feats of tanking her blows, Lol no, since tsunades punch >>>>> chojis boulder


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## Veracity (Jun 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> No, every assertion I have made is from the manga.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh you mean I did nothing but prove how Tsuande would turn kakuzu and his Domu into pieces of sand ? 

The Raikage has never cracked Madara Uchiha's Sussano by himself. While Tsuande turned his Sussano into shreds. Raikage also hardly scratched Madara himself, while Tsuande could punch a hole 
 large enough to fly through. Mind you, Raikage is also strong enough to smash pieces off of Sasukes rib cage Sussano, and casually smash holes through CC2 enchnaced Jugo. Tsunade packs more than enough power to obliterate kakuzu and his Domu. So you can quit with the Oro assertion, after I've already proven that Oro elastic durabilty against Part 1 Tsuande has nothing to do with kakuzu's durabilty against Byakago Tsunade.

And we can save the Tsuande landing a hit for later, cause that was never my Intial point. You spewed on talking reckless, saying Tsunade has never killed anyone and that kakuzu could survive via Domu ad multiple hearts. I was just explaining how Tsuande has enough power to obliterate all his hearts at one time, so you have no point.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

tbh for argus to say tsunade wins means it must be obvious that she does


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> It's an uphill argument you've latched yourself onto.
> 
> Tsuandes punch didn't kill a weakened orochimaru, and kakuzu has 5 hearts. That's canon.



hardly kakuzu got trolled by Naruto clones and failed to blitz shikamaru despite attacking him from the back 

the guy jutsu were also so slow ino, chouji and shikamru could react


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Oh you mean I did nothing but prove how Tsuande would turn kakuzu and his Domu into pieces of sand ?
> 
> The Raikage has never cracked Madara Uchiha's Sussano by himself. While Tsuande turned his Sussano into shreds. Raikage also hardly scratched Madara himself, while Tsuande could punch a hole large enough to fly through. Mind you, Raikage is also strong enough to smash pieces off of Sasukes rib cage Sussano, and casually smash holes through CC2 enchnaced Jugo. Tsunade packs more than enough power to obliterate kakuzu and his Domu. So you can quit with the Oro assertion, after I've already proven that Oro elastic durabilty against Part 1 Tsuande has nothing to do with kakuzu's durabilty against Byakago Tsunade.



Right, so I should drop my assertions and just stick to yours because you like it?

I don't get how you can jump from raikage vs Madara to her defeating kakuzus Doton? I also never claimed he will fight Tsunade with Doton, I said he's a superior fighter at mid range.

I don't think she will get close to him at all.



> And we can save the Tsuande landing a hit for later, cause that was never my Intial point. You spewed on talking reckless, saying Tsunade has never killed anyone and that kakuzu could survive via Domu ad multiple hearts. I was just explaining how Tsuande has enough power to obliterate all his hearts at one time, so you have no point.



No you didn't. 

Again, your just repeating something we all already know( byakugo/super strength), what' you're not doing is explaining how that equates to kakuzu losing five hearts.

Kakakuzu is a far more experienced ninja than Tsunade, is a superior fighter at mid range and has 5 hearts/5 natures.

Vs

Byakugo and cqc. 

Tsunade is at an disadvantage in this fight and she will lose.


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hardly kakuzu got trolled by Naruto clones and failed to blitz shikamaru despite attacking him from the back
> 
> the guy jutsu were also so slow ino, chouji and shikamru could react



Juubito got trolled by naruto, would you claim juubito is now inferior to Tsunade also?

How about assessing each characters ability, their weak points, their style etc etc instead of this fandom vs everyone.


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## Veracity (Jun 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> Right, so I should drop my assertions and just stick to yours because you like it?
> 
> I don't get how you can jump from raikage vs Madara to her defeating kakuzus Doton? I also never claimed he will fight Tsunade with Doton, I said he's a superior fighter at mid range.
> 
> ...



Except I have something to back my assertions up unlike you. You haven't provided any defensive feats for kakazu other than you claiming he has 5 hearts and assuming he survives because of this. I guess if PTS konohamaru had 5 hearts, he would automatically survive being attacked by a Tsuande strike. So I will simply say "concession accepted ." Until you actually provide any feats to assume Kakuzu can survive something that obliterates Sussano.

Because you have nothing to assume Kakazu is > to CC2 jugo. Unless you want to provide some feats, and then yes I'll wait for those. But anyway, Ay can punch through Jugo like butter, and Tsuande is vastly stronger than Ay. She could probably inflict the same damage Ay does to Jugo with the tip of her finger. She would obliterate kakuzu with a punch, or incapacitate him with reverse Shosen, or bisect him completely with chakra blades or melt with him KATSUYU acid. Either way he hes fucked up . 

Are you serious ? Do you want me to quote my Initial post? Because my post had nothing to do with Tsuande beating kakuzu. It had everything to do with you thinking Tsuande wouldn't kill kakuzu IF she landed a hit. Which is false, because her hits obliterate a large portion of her opponents body in contact, like this: she almost got hit
His elbows were obliterated from the force exerted from her punching his chest . She packs enough force to possibly destroy all his hearts at the same time, and at the very least incapacitate  him long enough to continue.

I don't really care to debate Tsunade vs kakuzu. That's not my point.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> Juubito got trolled by naruto, would you claim juubito is now inferior to Tsunade also?
> 
> How about assessing each characters ability, their weak points, their style etc etc instead of this fandom vs everyone.



fandom aren't you the one pretty much going on hyping kakuzu elemental jutsu and his speed despite him failing to blitz shikamru from behind 

oh the hypocrisy makes me chuckle 

nothing kakuzu has shown speed wise or jutsu wise should slightly imply he can do anything but die to tsunade

speed- failed to blitz shikamaru 
jutsu- chouji ino and shika react to it just fine 

implying tsunade wont is nothing short of silly


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

@like boss, again, if she lands a punch. She isn't landing one.

You're also speculating how many hearts she can kill off, which you know isn't as clear cut.

For someone who obliterates whatever she punches, she didn't do so vs orochimaru. Sakura with her punching didn't do so vs juubi minions. So what makes you think she would destroy 5 hearts in one go? Like you said, it's speculative.

What I've argued is far more reasonable, even if he's hit once I'm assuming he loses a heart but he will survive and change tactics which will put Tsunade on the back foot, IF he hasn't done that already. Which would be to fight a mid range battle by separating his bodies and spamming elemental attacks which kakuzu HAS DONE.

Also damaging someone's defence capabilities doesn't mean you defeat someone automatically, like Madara who continued to fight. Sasunoo did its job, the defensive shield took brunt of the force.


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## Bonly (Jun 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> For someone who obliterates whatever she punches, she didn't do so vs orochimaru. Sakura with her punching didn't do so vs juubi minions.



While true Tsunade didn't do such against Orochi, she did such against Madara.


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

That was a mokuton clone feint by Madara. She didn't hit Madara.


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## Bonly (Jun 23, 2015)

I used to think so to but nope. I mean can you show me any other Edo clones having flakes come off when getting hit because I didn't see the same thing happen when Hashi's wood clones got hit?


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

did such against Madara Madara says so, and he was hiding underneath.


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## Bonly (Jun 23, 2015)

So I guess clone feints aren't a thing huh


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Madara left a clone behind and it substituted with him after he got hit.  It's not the first time someone substituted out of a binding.


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

That's not what happened. Just prior to Tsunade landing a blow on madara, the 5kages ganged up on Madara and he landed heavily by the tree branch. That's the most likely time he used a bunshin and hid himself under the branch to counter attack.

He didn't switch with a bunshin clone, unless you're saying he left a bunshin clone hidden under the branch which he switched with, once his real body got hit and was being sealed? That's not a feint nor does it make sense for him to do that. He could've kawarimid with log in that case.

It's far easier to take his word. That was a mokuton bunshin.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> That was a mokuton clone feint by Madara. She didn't hit Madara.



and ur point is?
that the clone is less durable? 

if so please state where that was implied

btw u go on about tsunade fight against oro in part 1 shows u straw grasping 

1) rusty 
2) no byakuyo 
3) feel free to see the difference in sakura striking power before and after byakuyo for reference if the difference in striking power between tsunade before and after byakuyo is somehow unclearly to you 

for reasons I cant know 

sakura punches juubi jin with no byakuyo it doesn't move an inch, after byakuyo shockwaves taking out a bunch of them. but yes sure lets ignore that and say part 1 rusty no byakuyo tsunade= part 2 tsunade using byakuyo


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

Yes, it's less durable.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

feel free to show scans proving that
how much less durable 
can you quantify it 

or are u going to use ur special wooden glasses again you know the one that allows you to read the manga and think there isn't a massive difference between the tsunade that fought oro and the one that punched a hole in madara clone

btw mokuton bunshin are said to have higher fighting power than regular clones and unlike clones don't poof away when hit. u don't got much of claim there

guess I can just claim someone who cant blitz shikamaru really stands no chance to get away from tsunade


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

Right, so you agree the clones are less durable?

In anycase, the point was that it is a bunshin feint and not Madara.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> Right, so you agree the clones are less durable?
> 
> In anycase, the point was that it is a bunshin feint and not Madara.



oh that quick cop out 

what I do agree on is kakuzu got no durability feats with domu to assume he is more durable than jugo


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

Cop out? 

Cool, let's see who's doing that. Do you agree the clones are less durable? Or do you believe there's no difference between a bunshin and the original user.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> Cop out?
> 
> Cool, let's see who's doing that. Do you agree the clones are less durable? Or do you believe there's no difference between a bunshin and the original user.



no I don't agree that a moukton bunshin is less durable if so please provide scans suggesting it. 

there is a difference in chakra level and battle ability between a clone and the original 

there is less of a difference between a moukton clone and the original 

however nothing states an original is more durable than a mokuton clone 

your turn 

Now do you agree someone who cant blitz shikamaru while attacking from behind shouldn't be able to get away from tsunade who has shown to be faster than shikamaru 

Do you agree that feat wise rib cage susanoo showed better durability than Domu

do you agree that really nothing but hype backs the tsunade cannot harm kakuzu when kakuzu is using domu


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 23, 2015)

What's the point of debating a battle that ET Madara didn't even take seriously? Regardless of what happened, it's not like she came any where near close to beating him.

What's her record in fights? 0-3? 1-3 if we include the Naruto fight?


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

How about every battle in the manga has shown clones aren't durable.

And no, your line of questioning makes no sense. How does not blitzing shikamaru= slower than Tsunade. Tsuande herself isn't known for her speed, as Madara mentioned and as we all discussed in another thread with her fight against kabuto. It's a moot point.

And durability, the Sasunoo was used as a defensive wall, it's purpose being to cocoon the user from harm. The full form also has other uses, but defensively that's it's purpose.

Domu is a defensive jutsu just like gaaras sand skin. The point is to protect the user from the main brunt force of the opponents attacks. In which case Gaaras sand did just that during churning exams, sasukes and Madara Sasunoo did just that in various fights, the battalion forces Doton wall did just that, narutos chakra shroud did just that.

Also your missing the point, He is the superior mid range fighter.

According to you guys, damaging defensive walls = win, yet you have no problem time and time again spamming the threads with pics of a skewerd Tsuande hailing it as an incredible feat. Her defensive capabilities is taking hits head on


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> What's the point of debating a battle that ET Madara didn't even take seriously? Regardless of what happened, it's not like she came any where near close to beating him.
> 
> What's her record in fights? 0-3? 1-3 if we include the Naruto fight?





I think they refer to Madara because it wasn't serious, it made things more obscure and allows feats to be exaggerated. Like for instance hitting a mokuton is a feat.


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## Veracity (Jun 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> It's an uphill argument you've latched yourself onto.
> 
> Tsuandes punch didn't kill a weakened orochimaru, and kakuzu has 5 hearts. That's canon.





N120 said:


> Orochimaru survived tsuandes punch, Im not sure if we have seen anyone get killed by her punch so far.
> 
> In anycase, ryuzaki pretty much finished the debate, + rep.





N120 said:


> @like boss, again, if she lands a punch. She isn't landing one.
> 
> You're also speculating how many hearts she can kill off, which you know isn't as clear cut.
> 
> ...



Now you're just playing dumb, and I'm not even sure it's worth my time to debate against someone hasn't actually proved anything with hype or feats. Just pure speculation with nothing to prove.

The passages I quoted above, HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH TSUANDE DEFEATING KAKUZU in straight up match. It only has to do with you assuming a single hit won't kill kakuzu because it didn't kill Oro. Now let me explain once again considering you seem to comically misinterpret everything say. I'm not debating whether or not Tsuande lands a punch , I'm debating that kakuzu will be dead IFFFFFFF he gets hit.

OMG . She didn't do it against Oro because 1) she was rusty and exhausted, 2) Oro has an elastic body, 3) she most likely wasn't using chakra enhanced strikes and 4) she didn't have Byakago activated, which all drastically decrease her striking ability. So it's not the same here, and I've explained that many upon many times, and you simply refute to refute it .

Unless you assume kakuzu> ribcage Sussano in defensive ability( if you do , go ahead and provide the feats) then kakuzu gets turned into this, at the contact of a kick:  checkmated Deva
All hearts are destroyed in the process considering, the AOE that is destroyed by the kick is big enough to engulf Kakuzus entire body almost.

And Mokuton Bunshin are = to the user in the durability. Nothing in the manga states otherwise, and Madara was seemingly fooled by Hashirama's Bunshin feint, after he stabbed the Bunshin and had an entire conversation with it, thinking it was Hashirama himself. None of the Kage also questioned if Tsuande had punched a Bunshin, as they knew she was strong enough to do the same against his real body. ALSO, considering she can obliterate his Sussano, it's clear she can do the same to his Regular body.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 23, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Well, regeneration occurs in all of the GI organs, including the pancreas, stomach and both small and large intestines. However, the organs are arranged in a manner where her wound wouldn't completely destroy any single organ, perhaps parts of some would be destroyed but there would still be enough tissue left. The stomach and the pancreas may suffer damage but they would recover, since both of these organs span is greater than the point of damage shown in the manga.



No it doesn't, at least not to the point that significant parts of vital organs could be replaced. And like I have already said, multiple times, half of her lower abdomen _was gone_. When she ripped out those swords her insides would have looked _like this_. Certainly, given the position and size of those swords, there could not possibly have been anything left of her comparatively smaller kidneys, pancreas and gallbladder. _Nothing_. No baseline organ tissue at all. 



> However, if they were moving of Kakuzu's accord, they would have all dropped dead the moment Kakuzu went down after being struck down by his partner.



They feed off of _his_ chakra, they are formed out of parts of _his_ body. They are _his_ hearts. Which is why when one heart dies in his main body, three other hearts are still able to move around. Kakuzu still controls them, even if his original body isn't sentient. 



> I base it on what was said about the technique and what was given to be it's weakness. Since it is an iron defense, it's going to exceptionally difficult to shatter, based solely on it's properties. It's easier to see Kakuzu losing his footing and getting thrown across.



And Susano'o is what..a defence made of glass? There is absolutely no reason to assume that Domu > Susano'o. In actuality, it is the complete opposite.



> Well, I never stated FRS broke Domu, FRS just broke through Kakuzu's *base durability*, I believe he lost his earth heart to Kakashi earlier in the fight. Even with that amount of damage, Kakuzu was still alive, that's an all around impressive feat considering how it shattered the rest of Naruto's arm. Which is why, I find it rather inconceivable that Tsunade would be able to inflict the proper amount of damage in order break his defense, let alone kill him.



FRS knocked Kakuzu out and left him incapable of further battle. It is a very different kind of damage than Tsunade's punches, but that doesn't mean it couldn't also cripple him.



> Furthermore, this is also completely based on her being able to bridge an overwhelming speed gap, which I don't think she'll be able to do. If it's one on one, she may get lucky but if the masks are out and she's trying to fight him. That's not happening at all.



Please stop exaggerating. There is no "overwhelming" speed gap. He is a measly 0.5 ahead of her in speed, and even the significantly slower Shikamaru (who is 1.5 behind Kakuzu in speed) was capable of evading one of his strikes. Tsunade is much better at him in close quarters fighting, so Kakuzu's small speed advantage will do him no great favours. 



> Even though, they didn't make it in time. All they did was reach for something, it doesn't account for body speed which is what the speed category counts for. Grabbing a scroll is not the same as moving your entire body out of the way.



Opening a scroll and blocking are physical movements, just as _ducking_ is. The latter takes milliseconds longer to perform than the former, especially when said person ducking is a taijutsu master who is trained specifically in evasion, and is significantly faster than Chouji and Shikamaru to boot. Stop being negligent. Tsunade can obviously dodge Raiton: Gian. It has no impressive speed feats. 



> I doubt that, his knee jerk reaction was to release his masks and then he proceeded to close quarters combat, in fact he released techniques at a distance while his beasts roamed around.



That's because you are oblivious to seemingly everything, despite the fact that you yourself made the match stipulations. IC Kakuzu fighting Tsunade with virtually zero knowledge isn't expelling four of his hearts all at once and elemental blast spamming her as soon as the match begins. He didn't do this _initially_ against _Izumo or Kotetsu_, or against _Copy-ninja Kakashi_, or against one _or any_ of the Guardian Ninja, or even against the _nine-tailed jinchuuriki_. Why is a random woman from Konoha going to be any different? Even if he knew that she was a legendary medical ninja or indeed a Hokage, if he doesn't know of her super strength, he does what he always does and reels her into CQC with his threads.



> That jutsu isn't a raiton and the databook reaffirms this.



What difference does it make? Its still chakra powered electricity and it still failed to paralyse her.



> Dozens of fodder shinobi, however Kakuzu doesn't fall into that category.



They were all Chunin-Jounin level. Kakashi's natural suiton prowess is not that much better than theirs, even if they are fodders.



> The combo technique uses different natures it's superior in quality. This discussion is all predicated on the fact that we are only speaking of ET Madara. I think we both agree that the moment he became a sage, all of his base techniques also took a significant jump.



He wasn't using Sage Mode against Tsunade or the Alliance when he used his katons, so I don't see how that is relevant. 



> The sharingan gave him the ability to recognize the attack and proceed with getting to safety earlier. The precognition ability of the sharingan is what Kakuzu was referring to, Kakashi's surprising durable but that's another discussion all together.



Who cares? Kakashi, who is not extraordinarily durable, took _part of_ (yes, he did not take the full brunt of the fuuton because he predicted it with the sharingan) Kakuzu's attack, and came out with very minimal injuries. Hell, _Hidan_ tanked the full brunt of the attack and he received minor injuries too. Hidan is not durable at all. Tsunade is significantly more durable than two of them put together, and has regeneration, his fuuton isn't doing jack shit by itself. 



> Raiton Gian isn't entirely featless



I will take this as a concession, as you seem to appreciate that it has no actual feats of inflicting damage to anyone. 



> it took Kakashi two Raikiri's to properly cancel the technique out.



Raikiri is dubbed the Lightning Cutter for a reason. It was _made_ to cut through lightning. That speaks nothing for how much damage Gian would actually inflict.



> Kakashi is not onl faster than her, he has the sharingan and the lightning element. Tsunade has shown none of those abilities, I don't see how she will be able to properly cancel it out. She's going to get chopped. Here's an excerpt from the databook about the technique:



Blah blah. Sing a new song. The databook excerpt for Raiton: Gian tells me nothing you haven't already pointlessly highlighted.​​


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## N120 (Jun 23, 2015)

There's nothing to refute. 

You made a claim that she can kill kakuzu in one attack, but you've fallen well short of being able to prove that.

And you keep producing these obscure panels, take them out of context and exaggerate them beyond what was shown. That ribcage smash wasn't from one attack, it came as a result of multiple attacks from a combined effort by the kages. Sasuno was already cracked by the time Tsunade placed that kick, and was flanked by raikage who also put in a good attack.

And mokuton bunshins are just that, wood clones. it also doesn't refute my point that it wasn't Madara that was hit.

comical misinterpretation?


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## Veracity (Jun 23, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> When a heart is injured in order to compensate for injuries, the remaining undamaged cells generally grow in size (not in number) in order to make up for the loss. This process in a normal person would take approximately 2-3 weeks to garner, however, due to her healing ability, she can compensate much quicker. As far as I remember, it was Orochimaru made direct contact with her heart was once direct blow, from the looks of it, immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle and by resorting to her technique before any of the damage could be permanent. Of course she still lost some cells, but a clean slash like that with a sharp blade would at best leave a surgical scar, which many people can recover from without having complications. Her healing jutsu sped up the recovery phase which normally, under ideal medical conidtions is roughly 2-4 weeks, due to the lack of regrowth of tissue.
> 
> However, my point also hinged on the fact that *once exhausted*, which she undoubtedly would be against Kakuzu. she would no longer possess the stamina required to regenerate. As for the nervous tissue, she didn't regenerate new nerve cells, nor was she paralyzed waist down due to the timely summoning of Katsuyu. At best, Katsuyu probably kept her lower half and upper half nerves active. Otherwise, if she had been left in that condition without summoning Katsuyu, she for all intensive purposes would have died.
> 
> ...




4
Limited areas of the heart already repair themselves just extremely slow. Slow enough that it is almost useless to the actual hearts condition. Tsunade, however, would be able to heal these parts of the heart at an extremely fast rate( given the hype, feats and explanation of her justu). But there are some parts of the heart( in reality) that don't regenerate but actually turns into scar tissue which impairs the heart. Given that Tsuande is not only in her 50's( more likely for heart failure) but actually uses a Justu that shortens her life span, it would be evident and stated in the manga( kinda like Hirzuens old age or Onnoki's back) if her hearts was limiting her battle prowess. But this is not the case. Tsuande not only is never effected by her heart( considering it's been damaged enough to be scarred) but her battle performance had actually improved with age, long-time injures, and a technique that shortens her life. So do explain to me( as Tsuande has canonically had large parts of her heart injured) why dont these injuries effect Tsuande in her old age ? I mean... Probably because she regenerates them.

Naw Oro definitely made more contact with her body than that. Oro wielded a diamond cutting sword and slashed Tsuande like this twice on top of the attack directly to the sternum:  immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle
immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle
Given how small of an area the heart is, and how easily it can damaged , Tsuandes heart was clearly severely damaged. I'm every doubtful anyone can heal anyone can heal from their heart being almost bisected with minimal complications. That's some bullshit unless you explain. 

I don't think Tsuande would be exhausted against kakuzu at all, but you're right. If exhausted, she could be killed.

When battling against the Sussano clones. Her spinal cord was erased. She definitely should have been paralyzed whether you like it or not... But instead she could continue to fight his clones without too much problems.

Do you have any proof that Katusyu did anything to help Tsuande ? Because it just sounds like pure speculation. And according to actual showing and text, Tsuande asked Katsuyu not to help her, but to help the other kage:immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle
So that's not a reason for you to downplay Tsuande, she canonically survived that instance without help.

Bjuii level chakra with 3 years of chakra build up? Yes she easily does. What you fail to understand is that by the pain arc, Tsuande could have easily had 30x her base level of chakra. Her base level of chakra doesn't have to even be close to that of Kakuzus, considering she's storing chakra into her seal every single day. It multiples her chakra capacity by a fuck load. She also has the greatest chakra control in the manga, meaning she uses less chakra for every attack unlike kakuzu.

Her "reckless" style kept her alive longer than any of the other KAGE( except Onnoki) and unlike Ay, she was actually landing blows on the clones while he was simply running. If Katsuyu had been a factor, she wouldn't have ever gotten reckless as she would have had an entire unit to watch her back. You also seem to forget that given Tsuandes fighting style( chakra replenishing, healing, and fighting in the front lines) she was basically baby sitting the other kage. In this instance, she won't need to chakra boost or heal anyone else and can use the chakra for herself. She can also use Katsuyu for help, and getting reckless against even the most casual Madara, is still a lot more acceptable then against someone like kakuzu. I also forgot to mention that Tsuande was targeted as the first Madara wanted to kill, yet lasted the longest. 

Except Tsuande is physically superior to any Uchiha when it comes to the body. She also doesn't seem to have any heart, spine or body tramua despite being abused over the years. So regenerating organs, nerve cells, being bisected, severed intercostal lungs, acid damage, her entire body being shredded from the inside and out, somehow doesn't mean she can regenerate severed limbs??? Yeah haha, explain that logic to me. That's ridiculous. 

The Naruto and Sasuke example is actually really bad. Not only is that entire scene bullshit, but Naruto could regenerate kakashi an entire eye and heal the effects of the Red Aura Gate in a single touch. Him not creating himself a new arm( simply bones, veins, muscles, skin and blood) isn't actually logical. And Tsuandes Byakago seal doesn't have the same effect as her Regular medical Ninjustu, nor are the individuals that she heals as resilient.


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## Veracity (Jun 23, 2015)

N120 said:


> There's nothing to refute.
> 
> You made a claim that she can kill kakuzu in one attack, but you've fallen well short of being able to prove that.
> 
> ...



Concession accepted on the first part considering instead of refuting the panels and evidence I've provided, you simply say it's wrong:

The ribcage was from a single attack. By the time the Mizukage sent Madaras Sussano away in the opposite direction, the damage done from Tsuandes first blow was already regenerated, meaning Sussano actively regenerates. Raikage + Onnoki's combination attack not only created the smallest crack( that isn't even visible when Tsuande kicks the Sussano) but it merely damaged the Sussano from the entire different side. Based on the structure of a ribcage, that wouldn't weaken the side Tsuande kicked at all. It's like poking a hole in an eggshell, and thinking the other side is structurally weaker.

Concession accepted again. I've already proven via actual feats that Mokuton Bunshin = actual user in terms of durability.   Instead of actually refuting such, you simply say they are wood clones. I'm sorry, but what does that prove ? It doesn't prove anything at all, it's just a baseless statement from you. 

Yes comical misinterpretation. I've explained on atleast three different occasions that I am not talking about kakuzu vs Tsuande in an actual fight, yet you still argue that. It's legitimately funny at this point.


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## N120 (Jun 24, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Concession accepted on the first part considering instead of refuting the panels and evidence I've provided, you simply say it's wrong:
> 
> The ribcage was from a single attack. By the time the Mizukage sent Madaras Sussano away in the opposite direction, the damage done from Tsuandes first blow was already regenerated, meaning Sussano actively regenerates. Raikage + Onnoki's combination attack not only created the smallest crack( that isn't even visible when Tsuande kicks the Sussano) but it merely damaged the Sussano from the entire different side. Based on the structure of a ribcage, that wouldn't weaken the side Tsuande kicked at all. It's like poking a hole in an eggshell, and thinking the other side is structurally weaker.
> 
> ...



I've already called you out on your misuse of these panels. I provided even better manga facts in orochimaru. So not only is your use of the source wrong, but your claim was nullified also. I've also addressed your argument comprehensively.

Go round in circles all you want, but repeating an argument doesn't make it a stronger argument, it'll still be as wrong as it was the first time it was refuted.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> How about every battle in the manga has shown clones aren't durable.
> 
> And no, your line of questioning makes no sense. How does not blitzing shikamaru= slower than Tsunade. Tsuande herself isn't known for her speed, as Madara mentioned and as we all discussed in another thread with her fight against kabuto. It's a moot point.
> 
> ...



because tsunade has shown better speed feats than shikamaru maybe

sorry i didnt know every battle in the manga had mokuton bunshin that are inherently different from kage bunshin. so again u have no scans of moukuton bunshin being weaker. good game buddy

keep trying 

yh superior mid range fighter with no speed to keep the fight mid ranged. you know with the failing to blitz shikamaru and all 

never said damaging defensive wall= win someone is bitter and makign shit up. 

point was domu would be broken and domu was his best chance at not dying


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## Veracity (Jun 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> I've already called you out on your misuse of these panels. I provided even better manga facts in orochimaru. So not only is your use of the source wrong, but your claim was nullified also. I've also addressed your argument comprehensively.
> 
> Go round in circles all you want, but repeating an argument doesn't make it a stronger argument, it'll still be as wrong as it was the first time it was refuted.



You haven't called me out in anything ? I've already proven exactly why those panels make sense. I'm pretty sure any poster can see why you lost this debate lol. You didnt actually provide a single feat. And the ones you implied didn't have anything to do with this debate. 

You brought up the ORO feat, and I proved that:
? Tsuande was weakened 
? Oro has an elastic body
? tsuande wasn't using Byakago
And you didn't refute any of it. Just skimmed over the answers and came at me with one word answers.

So yeah concession accepted.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> You haven't called me out in anything ? I've already proven exactly why those panels make sense. I'm pretty sure any poster can see why you lost this debate lol. You didnt actually provide a single feat. And the ones you implied didn't have anything to do with this debate.
> 
> You brought up the ORO feat, and I proved that:
> ? Tsuande was weakened
> ...



pretty much sums it up 
oh well


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## N120 (Jun 24, 2015)

You haven't proven anything, if you can list more people she didn't kill than those she has then it's a pointless argument to make no? 


She didn't kill Madara, didn't kill orochimaru, thats canon. That's her feats.

Kakuzu survived an FRS,raikiri and Boulder smash. That's his feats.

She isn't killing him with one attack, based on feats. But yeh, let's keep going round in circles 

using obscure panels and rewriting the context to hype her up beyond what the manga has shown, then claiming it a feat. If I did that you'd be calling me out too.

All you've done is sideline everything that indicates she can't, and relying on unrelated panels or assertions like
Oro was rubbery
Falling for a bunshin feint
And land a blow on Sasunoo.

All of which i have countered.

If relying on manga is a form of concession, then i guess its a concession.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 24, 2015)

> You haven't proven anything, if you can list more people she didn't kill than those she has then it's a pointless argument to make no?



Kakashi can kill people.

Kakashi didn't kill Zabuza, Kakuzu (permanently), Obito, Deva, or Asura.

He's killed Haku.  

I guess it's a pointless to argue Kakashi can kill people.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 24, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> What's the point of debating a battle that ET Madara didn't even take seriously? Regardless of what happened, it's not like she came any where near close to beating him.
> 
> What's her record in fights? 0-3? 1-3 if we include the Naruto fight?



What's Kakashi's record?  1-6?  2-5?  

Did Kisame ever win a fight on panel?  (I can't remember exactly how the Bee fight ended)


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> That's not what happened. Just prior to Tsunade landing a blow on madara, the 5kages ganged up on Madara and he landed heavily by the tree branch. That's the most likely time he used a bunshin and hid himself under the branch to counter attack.
> 
> He didn't switch with a bunshin clone, unless you're saying he left a bunshin clone hidden under the branch which he switched with, once his real body got hit and was being sealed? That's not a feint nor does it make sense for him to do that. He could've kawarimid with log in that case.
> 
> It's far easier to take his word. That was a mokuton bunshin.



When Hashirama's edo tensei mokubunshin was stabbed, it turned to wood.  When it was blown apart, it was wood.  (You can see Tobirama's edo body turn to paper mache right next to Hashirama's wood clone, for a side by side comparison.)  

Based on observation, only edo bodies turn to paper mache, while Mokubinshin turn to wood.  Edo Madara turned to paper mache, therefore it was Madara's edo body that got hit.


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## N120 (Jun 24, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> When Hashirama's edo tensei mokubunshin was stabbed, it turned to wood.  When it was blown apart, it was wood.  (You can see Tobirama's edo body turn to paper mache right next to Hashirama's wood clone, for a side by side comparison.)
> 
> Based on observation, only edo bodies turn to paper mache, while Mokubinshin turn to wood.  Edo Madara turned to paper mache, therefore it was Madara's edo body that got hit.



What we know is that Madara used a clone as a feint, countered Tsuande and told her it was a clone.

What you're doing is now speculating wether it was a clone or not, why the overcomplication? Take his word, look at the sequence of events, that should really suffice.


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## N120 (Jun 24, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kakashi can kill people.
> 
> Kakashi didn't kill Zabuza, Kakuzu (permanently), Obito, Deva, or Asura.
> 
> ...



Kakashi did kill kakuzu, twice. Killed haku, killed rin. So it's not pointless.

He has landed chidori/raikiri on multiple opponents and they have in most part delivered consistent results from which we can make clearer assumptions on what to expect.

Tsuande hasn't killed anyone in this manga, her punches while destructive against walls and the ground, haven't insta-killed anyone and the damage on actual combatants is far less consistent. So it's not as clear.

Even so I have said I assume she'd Take out 1 heart in cqc, not multiple hearts. There's no evidence to suggest she can.

It's the same with Sakura, she causes far more damage to the terrain than she does on her opponents.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> What we know is that Madara used a clone as a feint, countered Tsuande and told her it was a clone.
> 
> What you're doing is now speculating wether it was a clone or not, why the overcomplication? Take his word, look at the sequence of events, that should really suffice.



It's really simple.  Wood clones turn to wood.  Edo's turn to paper.  It turned to paper so they punched an edo.

Madara said they sealed a clone.  So they sealed a clone.  

So they punched Madara, and sealed a clone.  What's so complicated about that?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> Kakashi did kill kakuzu, twice. Killed haku, killed rin. So it's not pointless.



I still listed more people he didn't kill than those he did, so by your reasoning, yeah, it's pointless.  Kakuzu+Rin+Haku is 3 or 4.  Obito+Deva+Asura+Zabuza+Kakkō+Taiseki=6  

If you think that line of reasoning is invalid, don't use it.


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## N120 (Jun 24, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It's really simple.  Wood clones turn to wood.  Edo's turn to paper.  It turned to paper so they punched an edo.
> 
> Madara said they sealed a clone.  So they sealed a clone.
> 
> So they punched Madara, and sealed a clone.  What's so complicated about that?



You're making it more complicated than what Madara actually said he did. 

Your saying he kawarimid with a clone after taking damage and in the midst of being sealed without recovering, all this so you can give Tsuande a feat/hype. thats taking it to the nth degree of an asspull. It was far simpler than even that, it was simple bunshin feint and they fell for it, not many people can see through it and I'm guessing you're one of them.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I still listed more people he didn't kill than those he did, so by your reasoning, yeah, it's pointless.  Kakuzu+Rin+Haku is 3 or 4.  Obito+Deva+Asura+Zabuza+Kakkō+Taiseki=6
> 
> If you think that line of reasoning is invalid, don't use it.



I'm all for banter, but if this is your attempt at a serious counter then...

Im not interested. Thx.

I don't expect this type of response when you were practically spoon fed  a thorough explanation, but decided it was too inconvenient.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 24, 2015)

LB and GT, I'll get to yours soon enough.





The Pirate on Wheels said:


> What's Kakashi's record?  1-6?  2-5?
> 
> Did Kisame ever win a fight on panel?  (I can't remember exactly how the Bee fight ended)



It's better than Tsunade's, that much I can guarantee and he's actually had kill-counts with his jutsu where as Tsunade's punches are really featless


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## Veracity (Jun 25, 2015)

N120 said:


> You haven't proven anything, if you can list more people she didn't kill than those she has then it's a pointless argument to make no?
> 
> 
> She didn't kill Madara, didn't kill orochimaru, thats canon. That's her feats.
> ...



What the fuck does killing people have to do with the power of the technique in this instance? How many people has the Moukton Buddah statue killed? How many people has Mokuton: Wood human killed? How many people has PS killed ? How many people has CST killed? Exactly ... So you can shut that good awful logic right down. It doesn't make any sense at all.

She would have killed Madara if she had hit him. I'm not using her hitting Madara as a base to assume she can hit Kakazu because she can hit someone on a much higher tier. I'm only saying that because she turned someone like Madara( extremely resistant to blunt force damage as he creates craters from landing and takes Ay's attacks without a scratch) she would do the same to kakazu. She never actually hit Madara himself, but obliterated a wood Bunshin of equal durabilty. She also smashed through his Sussano which has higher durability to himself.

She didn't kill oro because she was exhausted ,rusty, not using chakra enhanced strength and didn't have Byakago. I've said that many times and yet you failed to even attempt to refute it. It's like you're missing the statement every single time.

Yay some actual feats. Ummm lighting blade cleanly pierced right through kakuzu with zero resistance. If it's AoE was higher( like that of a Byakago blow) then Kakashi would have single handily ended Kakuzu right there. Boulder smash and its piss poor feats aren't even worth mentioning so I'll just skip right past that. And base narutos incomplete FRS incapacitated Kakuzu to the point where he couldn't even move. At that point the FRS didn't even deal great raw damage, it mostly just microscopically attacked his entire body and destroyed his chakra network. It's effects were like a watered down lighting blade spread out across Kakuzus body( ignoring infinities). The damage output of FRS is also nothing like the chakra explosion of a Byakago strike.

Using obscure panels and context? Yeah I want you to explain that.

You do know why something with a rubbery texture can take ALOT more blunt force right ? Or am going to have to walk you the light exactly why it can? I can also provide actual feats of this happening in the manga if you want. 

Falling for a Bunshin feint? What does that have to do with anything ? If Tsuande had hit the actual Madara, the same would have happened. And Madara is pretty durable to blunt force.

You haven't actually countered anything though. You didn't say anything to me explaining that a Mokuton Bunshin is = to the original in durability, proving that Tsuande was vastly weaker when she fought oro, and when I proved that Tsuande destroyed Sussano by herself.


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## Veracity (Jun 25, 2015)

Oh fuck , Tsuande clearly did punch Madara himself given the BLATANT paper flakes after punching him:
Link removed
Link removed

In contrast to a regular wood clone being destroyed: Link removed

There's really no way to argue that, unless you want to disagree with what is directly written on panel. The difference between listening solely to what Madara said and directly ignoring panel evidence, is that Madara said they sealed his clone not that Tsuande hit a clone.. Meaning that Madara performed a crazy Bunshin feint. Not that matters anyway as Wood Bunshin durability = user durability. 

But good look PoW and Bonly.


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## N120 (Jun 25, 2015)

Read the sequence of events, it's pretty clear the damaged clone was what was sealed. Madara hid himself under the tree and was perfectly fine and surrounded by Sasunoo when he counter attacked. The feint happened before sealing otherwise you'd see him repairing his edo body. Which never happened.

I'm sure you have enough panels to know how bunshins work and how et work.

Why leap for the farthest more complicated explanation when the simplest one suffices?

Also for your point above, the point about killing people is to see how likely it would be that she according you will KILL kakuzu in one attack.

Your backing this argument based on her feat against a clone when there is direct manga panel of her hitting a combatant cleanly and NOT killing him. One is clear there other not so much.

you've attempted to disregard the panel where the feat didn't Accomplish what you claimed, and keep returning to panels where there is no direct link to your claims but allows you to speculate based on feats with indirect hits on enemies.


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## Hero (Jun 25, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> She did have Byakogou active when she fought Madara and ended up sliced right? It'll heal some abrasions and deep cuts, but having a full body severed or her head severed, it will not. I don't think she can grow a new heart or recover brain cells.



There's this funny concept called chakra. You know, if you are low on it, things don't work as efficiently.

Omg, also another thing I just discovered was that Tsunade put herself back together despite being ripped in half. In fact she was in the process of doing that before Karin came along. Karin only accelerated the process Tsunade was doing herself. However Tsunade healed herself the entire time. Karin only provided more chakra. Nothing else. Basically that was all Tsunade's doing. 

It's comparable to making a pizza on 500 degrees vs 250 degrees.

Also it's funny how she got stabbed in the heart and managed to regrow some cells part one. I also find it humorous that you're using one of the strongest people in the manga to knock her healing capabilities. Since you were having some trouble with reading comprehension, I'll help you out.

Being cut in half has nothing to do with how well you regenerate. period. end of story. Her being cut in half only means Madara bested her in ways we don't know. It does not mean she can't heal from it because guess what....she was up and at it in 636. Crazy right? 

Once again I'll make it clear for you. Having Byakugo active does not determine whether or not you get sliced in half. Don't know if you read the manga or not, but there was also a tree placed in between Tsunade's lower and upper halves. If she couldn't heal from those "abrasions", why did Madara even put that trunk of wood there in the first place?


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## Veracity (Jun 25, 2015)

N120 said:


> Read the sequence of events, it's pretty clear the damaged clone was what was sealed. Madara hid himself under the tree and was perfectly fine and surrounded by Sasunoo when he counter attacked. The feint happened before sealing otherwise you'd see him repairing his edo body. Which never happened.
> 
> I'm sure you have enough panels to know how bunshins work and how et work.
> 
> ...



I want you to explain exactly why paper came out of Madara when Tsuande made contact instead of wood? Like that pretty much sums up the entire thing. I'll wait for you to explain that though.

If she can erase Sussano with a Kick, Kakuzu will be erased to by the explosion of chakra and strength . That's like way back to statement #1.

Let me say it again like I've said it a million times already.... Wood Bunshin = the user in durability. So if Madara himself was in the same position, he would have suffered the same fate. She also destroyed ribcage Sussano, so this whole she hasn't killed anyone argument is negated. Anything less durable than Ribcage Sussano would die to Byakago Tsunade.  I also listed a plethora of Justu that haven't killed anyone either. So I guess PS isn't killing Kakuzu either.

Blah blah blah, the rest is literally just you complaining. You still haven't actually countered anything, so concession accepted.


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## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

^agreed
guess konohamaru can survive PS since it hasnt killed anyone
that boss level konohamaru


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 25, 2015)

Kakuzu would survive for a long time and probably give Tsunade a very hard time before she wins. He has five lives, good resistance to blunt force taijutsu thanks to doton: domu and his unique body, decades of combat experience and all the means to keep her at a safe distance. 

The problem is that there's only so long he could keep her at bay before she gets close enough to clobber him to death. Fūton: atsugai and katon: zukkoku are very good jutsu, but we've seen with Orochimaru that cutting her up doesn't deter her and we've seen with Madara that burns don't _really _damage her. Raiton: gian isn't a very big jutsu, and I don't doubt Tsunade could just evade it. If not, byakugō ensures that she can more or less run through every attack of his anyway.

Kakuzu is probably good enough with taijutsu and crafty enough to survive for a while even when she gets close. He consistently outmatched Kakashi and could overpower Chōji. The problem here is that Tsunade is just so overwhelmingly strong in close quarters that his finesse and jiongu probably wouldn't do much else than prolong the inevitable.


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## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

@Atlantic overpowering chouji was only in the anime 
doubt he can pull such off as it was never shown in the manga


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Atlantic overpowering chouji was only in the anime
> doubt he can pull such off as it was never shown in the manga



I was talking about him bound up with jiongu [1] [2] . That said, I don't think it's that much of a stretch for Kakuzu to be able to overpower him with pure physical strength, either. He's pretty strong [3] and we know for a fact that doton: domu enhances his strength.


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## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I was talking about him bound up with jiongu [1] [2] . That said, I don't think it's that much of a stretch for Kakuzu to be able to overpower him with pure physical strength, either. He's pretty strong [3] and we know for a fact that doton: domu enhances his strength.



Fair enough you are right. though I think chouji there must have been brain dead. all he had to do was multisize to make himself harder to restrain 

domu enhances strength true. however he cannot use domu and jiongu at the same time

so if he makes his skin hard he cant then immediately counter with threads without first deactivating domu.


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