# the sanin triangle (was kishi true to his word about them being equal?)



## Icegaze (Feb 23, 2015)

I for one utterly believe so, despite kishi failing in several departments in the story this is one department despite the lack of feats from all 3 of them due to how versatile they are, he did overall put them on equal footing 

1) I will start with their transformation techniques. 

Jiriaya- sage mode with Ma and Pa
Orochiamru- his hydra form 
tsunade- byakuyo 

We already all know sage mode and the perks that come with it. though kishi didnt show frog katas from jiraiya he is capable of it. its a c rank tech, so basically easy to learn once u got sage mode. 
as far as cqc is concerned he is the most dangerous of the 3 once he enters this form 

hydra form- though kishi didnt show it, going by mythology the hydra is capable of regrowing heads. similar to nagato amplification technique. granted kishi didnt show it, it could be orochimaru got sealed by totsuka before it kicked in. Do note itachi has seen the technique before and is perfectly designed to counter it. 

An added effect from the technique is killing the snakes releases poison into the air. (Again not show but we all know white snake blood paralyzes the opponent)

tsunade byakuyo is a power amplification technique- though kishi didnt really elaborate how much stronger she gets. it is known its releasing 3 years of stored chakra. which allows her to regen at will. it means she is a walking tank who only needs to hit you once to kill you 

2) sealing techniques 

jiriaya has- his fire seal technique, toad gourd prison as well as other various sealing techs
orohimaru-edo tensei, cursed seal as well as various others
tsunade- her forehead seal 

I think kishi made it so that jiraiya looses to orochimaru, however orochimaru looses to tsunade and jiriaya beats tsunade so then on to the match ups 

orochimaru vs jiraiya 
location: open field 
mindset: utter blood lust 
restrictions: none 

Assume orochimaru will summon ET hiruzen. however due to his ET not being as accurate (this is orochimaru without the zetsu body) assume Et hirzuen isnt as strong. scale him down to asuma level. 

I think orochimaru should beat jiraiya, hydra showing up especially if it is what i think it is would be hard for jiriaya to beat. granted jiraiya has frog song, however the lengthy prep leads me to believe orochimaru has more than enough time to stop him 

jiriaya vs tsunade
location: open field 
mindset: utter blood lust 
restrictions: can only summon 10% katsuyu at the most. though 5% would be summoned

i think jiraya wins. katsuyu has a time limit, and tsunde a chakra limit. she can again keep pressure on jiraiya to prevent frog song. however in cqc katas would be a huge issue. her regen seems more tasking than orochimaru's. jiraiya will push her back then genjutsu her 

orochimaru vs tsunade
jiriaya vs tsunade
location: open field 
mindset: utter blood lust 
restrictions: can only summon 10% katsuyu at the most. though 5% would be summoned
orochimaru will summon dan to toy with tsunade

this is goign to be a match of attrition, neither can put the other down with ease. even white snake poison would take time to work against her. 

katsuyu would be a good match up against hydra. again if it does what i think it does. 
katsuyu also has the ability to heal so poison wont work well on her. 

Dan would be a huge asset however, shoudl she overcome that which she will , she would be more than angry enough to keep bashing orochimaru till he runs out of steam 

she has more chakra than he does


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## Jad (Feb 23, 2015)

His word? Do you mean he has stated it somewhere? Or are we going off that Slug, Snake, Frog thing?

To be honest I believe he made Orochimaru and Jiriaya in a different tier than Tsunade in terms of fighting. And that's fine, she was the healer in the group, meant to be one of the most important roles in a platoon. The thing is, Kishimoto did give Jiraiya and Orochimaru a lot to show in terms of versatility in combat, and knowledge. I think in Part-1, it was much more believable if you thought they would all be at a stalemate, but now it's just in my opinion, not anymore. Plus it is common for an author to change his mind on how he wants things to be, plus Editor pressure is another factor. In hindsight, I guess Tsunade's role was like Saukra's to Naruto/Sasuke (although Tsunade's gap in fighting effectiveness is definitely not as big as Sakura's). But was Sakura useful to her team?

Are the Sannin equal in terms of their ninja ability and synergy? Well Hanzo did, they are called "Sannin", meaning three. To me Sannin is more to do with the team's power combined than the individual. They had the healer and two front line ninja's, just like Tsunade wanted in the end and petitioned for, since it's effective. As proven.​


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 23, 2015)

Well the question wasn't whether they were equal in fighting Jad, it was whether they were equal period.

Tsunade's Byakugo seal and summon granted her the ability to protect a village's occupants against a massive force nuke, and protect an army against chakra-sapping and pursuing Mokuton branches. Jiraiya and Orochimaru could not do that. In that regard, she would have clearly been the better Hokage. There are plenty of situations where Tsunade would be more useful than both of them combined. 

Tsunade's advances in the medical field are up there with Jiraiya's creative and versatile jutsu arsenal and Orochimaru's unique and powerful body modifications. To be frank, they're all geniuses in their own right. 

Tsunade~ (Perhaps) Greatest Medical (Physician/Surgeon) Genius & Top-tier Chakra Manipulation Master
Jiraiya~ Incredible Ninjutsu Master (A+ in practically anything Ninjutsu) / Sage Mastery / Renown Author 
Orochimaru~ Body Modification Artist (not only on himself) / Incredible Knowledge Base / Natural Genius even among the three (IQ)

Individually, however, Jiraiya is the superior fighter, rightfully so as a Sage. At his strongest, he would kill both of them one on one with moderate difficulty. If Orochimaru had pursued perfecting his fighting technique instead of acquiring Illegal Ninjutsu / Immortality / Political Power he may have edged both of them out in the end, but to me he never really seemed all that focused on combat. Kishimoto, in the beginning, tried to showcase Orochimaru as the one with the most potential or natural ability (genius). He, however, was not the one hyped by Nagato to be able to defeat Pain (with knowledge) or by Itachi to defeat him and Kisame (however illogical)- Jiraiya was. The superior alpha fighter is obvious in both feats and portrayal.

What defines a Shinobi's rank (worth) isn't entirely based on individual combat abilities, there's a lot that can make you stand out among the community of ninja (missions completed, verse knowledge gained, leadership abilities, intelligence, support abilities, chakra innovation, etc). They've all accomplished great things and each has garnered equal respect and infamy as a result, I believe most ninja in the verse would consider them (as a whole) equal ninja of worth.


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## Jad (Feb 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Well the question wasn't whether they were equal in fighting Jad, it was whether they were equal period.


 I addressed that in my post as well. But Icegaze does set up scenario's where Tsunade, Orochimaru and Jiraiya fight each other in one on one battles, by showing how the Slug > Snake > Frog > Slug definition is true.  So I mainly addressed the idea of them being equal as fighters as the main point of my post.


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## Icegaze (Feb 23, 2015)

Jad said:


> His word? Do you mean he has stated it somewhere? Or are we going off that Slug, Snake, Frog thing?​




yh the frog, slug thing 



> To be honest I believe he made Orochimaru and Jiriaya in a different tier than Tsunade in terms of fighting. And that's fine, she was the healer in the group, meant to be one of the most important roles in a platoon. The thing is, Kishimoto did give Jiraiya and Orochimaru a lot to show in terms of versatility in combat, and knowledge. I think in Part-1, it was much more believable if you thought they would all be at a stalemate, but now it's just in my opinion, not anymore. Plus it is common for an author to change his mind on how he wants things to be, plus Editor pressure is another factor. In hindsight, I guess Tsunade's role was like Saukra's to Naruto/Sasuke (although Tsunade's gap in fighting effectiveness is definitely not as big as Sakura's). But was Sakura useful to her team?



i firmly disagree. Neither can easily put her down and for the most part those jiraiya and orochimaru can take on she can as well with the same level of success. i dont think you get how hax she can be. she can heal constantly through out the fight and only need punch someone like jiraiya once to kill him. Also note katsuyu cant even be damaged and can also heal tsunade remotely using its reserves. as far as being unkillable is concerned she is nearly on par with orochimaru. Things like amaterasu would put her down while oro would walk away from that 



> Are the Sannin equal in terms of their ninja ability and synergy? Well Hanzo did, they are called "Sannin", meaning three. To me Sannin is more to do with the team's power combined than the individual. They had the healer and two front line ninja's, just like Tsunade wanted in the end and petitioned for, since it's effective. As proven.


[/QUOTE]

explain how jiraiya beats her or orochimaru. because i have never been one to hype tsunade but when you think about it. she is very hard to kill and can kill most ninja with a punch. 

do argue how orochimaru wins. i want your thoughts on this.

@davizwiz jiraiya has nothing to put down tsunade par frog song. she can put him down with any random punch. not so easy. also katsuyu is alot more useful than gamabunta


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## Jad (Feb 23, 2015)

The thing is with, she doesn't heal on the go. It's taxing on the body (it literally shortens her life), so are the injuries she receives. You chop off her leg for instance, she isn't going to be seemingly running on two legs,. She'll feel the pain, trip over, spit blood out, be bothered by the pain as it happened, and because of that all those are distractions will be bad for her. Like this for example when she removed the swords [1]. For instance, Picture someone in Nauto's position attacking Juubidara. Madara wasn't even fully healed/regenerated and Naruto capitalized [2]. Tsunade isn't like Suigetsu where if you remove a body of water of him that makes up his leg, he can actually continue fighting without being bothered. All the other instances where we are led to believe Tsunade has 'tanked' an attack, it's more like she received the wound and got used to the pain because she had down time.


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## Icegaze (Feb 23, 2015)

I get you jad you are right 
However even orochimaru is the same 
Depending on the damage he would have to spit himself out or reattach 
Tsunade can simply stick the leg that got chop off back then she has a much smaller surface to heal . Or regrow

The thing is against the Susanoo she was already running on empty . She was tired . As stated by Ei and was getting sloppy . Normally she isn't like oro who chooses to run into attacks or not evade she will . 

If she gets in close with jiraiya he could really die


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## Jad (Feb 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I get you jad you are right
> However even orochimaru is the same
> Depending on the damage he would have to spit himself out or reattach
> Tsunade can simply stick the leg that got chop off back then she has a much smaller surface to heal . Or regrow
> ...



To be honest, I believe a head shot from Tsunade to Orochimaru would kill him. I just think that Orochimaru's Kyuubi fight demonstration really explored and showed how slippery he is, even without the use of Ninjutsu. Not sure if Tsunade can reach him before Orochimaru can get the ultimate kill shot on her.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 23, 2015)

Jad said:


> I addressed that in my post as well. But Icegaze does set up scenario's where Tsunade, Orochimaru and Jiraiya fight each other in one on one battles, by showing how the Slug > Snake > Frog > Slug definition is true.  So I mainly addressed the idea of them being equal as fighters as the main point of my post.


You're right about that though.

Let me ask you this though Jad, what did you think when Hagoromo individually praised Kakashi after defeating Kaguya? Or when Hashirama said Itachi was a greater shinobi then him to Sasuke?

~Kakashi is clearly not a stronger combatant than Naruto (or even Sasuke arguably even with DMS), yet he was praised
~Itachi is clearly not stronger combatant than Hashirama, yet he was praised


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## Jad (Feb 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> You're right about that though.
> 
> Let me ask you this though Jad, what did you think when Hagoromo individually praised Kakashi after defeating Kaguya?



Very happy, and probably one of the main reasons he became Hokage. As was stated by Kishimoto, he was the only one that could lead Naruto and Sasuke.



DaVizWiz said:


> Or when Hashirama said Itachi was a greater shinobi then him to Sasuke?


 Kishimoto once again showing his Itachi flag fly


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## Icegaze (Feb 23, 2015)

Jad said:


> To be honest, I believe a head shot from Tsunade to Orochimaru would kill him. I just think that Orochimaru's Kyuubi fight demonstration really explored and showed how slippery he is, even without the use of Ninjutsu. Not sure if Tsunade can reach him before Orochimaru can get the ultimate kill shot on her.



Tbh I don't think a headshot would kill him . He howveer can try cutting off her head which won't be so easy . Considering she would be aware that's the only place she needs to be careful about 

Orochimaru is more slippery through his soft body modification . However tsunade has better CQC skills so for someone like jiraiya dealing with tsunade in CQC would be a nightmare regardless of frog katas. Which won't kill her


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## Jad (Feb 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Tbh I don't think a headshot would kill him . He howveer can try cutting off her head which won't be so easy . Considering she would be aware that's the only place she needs to be careful about
> 
> Orochimaru is more slippery through his soft body modification . However tsunade has better CQC skills so for someone like jiraiya dealing with tsunade in CQC would be a nightmare regardless of frog katas. Which won't kill her



Jiraiya doesn't even have Sage Sensing does he?


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## Icegaze (Feb 23, 2015)

He does 
As he should . His isn't perfect hence he needs ma and pa 

But he got all the attributes . Hence why Kishi gave him frog katas


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 23, 2015)

Orochimaru could be stronger than either Jiraiya or Tsunade if he had prepared his Edo Tensei. That said, it takes time and effort to use Edo Tensei mid-battle, and even with the necessary preparations made neither Jiraiya nor Tsunade may give him the time of the day to use it.

Generally speaking, a match between Orochimaru and Tsunade is pretty 50/50. It probably comes down to a match of attrition since both Sannin can regenerate endlessly from whatever damage they sustain. The outcome is also dependant on the condition of Orochimaru's body, and how much chakra Tsunade has stored inside of her seal. 

Base Jiraiya would be defeated by either Orochimaru or Tsunade in my opinion, albeit with difficulty, but in Sage Mode he is able to outclass them. 

So yes, they're all about equal.​​


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## FlamingRain (Feb 23, 2015)

Jad said:


> His word? Do you mean he has stated it somewhere?​



He actually has in the guidebooks.

_"*A lonely blossom that flowered in Konoha!* Tsunade is the strongest Kunoichi in Konoha history, every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru."_​
The fact that he claims it in explaining that she's the strongest Kunoichi in Konoha history shows that he's talking about battle strength there.

The way everybody talks about them in the manga heavily implies the same thing, too, as does the Toad > Slug > Snake relationship.



> And that's fine, she was the healer in the group, meant to be one of the most important roles in a platoon.



Except he has Tsunade blatantly spell out that being the healer doesn't excuse one to not hone their fighting abilities as well. Most of Tsunade's medical Ninjutsu can be used for offensive purposes if need be.


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## Icegaze (Feb 23, 2015)

@godaime his ET won't help him beat jiriaya 
Do remember in order to improve ET to the level of war arc he needed zetsu body 
This thtead is Oro as his original self . 

Jiriaya has several ways of disabling the ET which would be at a relatively low level . Jiriaya however would loose to orochimaru regardless . 

However orochimaru can't do anything to harm tsunade so she should win


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## Turrin (Feb 23, 2015)

The Sannin were originally planned to be equal, considering Ebisu's comment early on that only a Sannin can beat a Sannin. However It's pretty obvious that Kishi couldn't keep to that throughout the story, due to the story demanding the Sannin powers evolve in certain way for the sake of the plot. 

Jiraiya's Sennin Modo, when it first appeared could potentially be balanced out with Orochimaru's White-Snake powers, and Tsunade's Gensis of Rebirth, but as time went on Kishi felt the need to add further powers to Sennin Modo, due to it being one of Naruto's main powers, and in doing so made the mode a-lot more versatile and powerful than he probably originally intended. For example, when Jiriaya first uses Sennin Modo, I don't think it was suppose to have thee best Sensing capabilities in the entire manga (short of Rikudo-SM), Ghost Punches, Be the only thing that can harm Juubi/Juubi Jins, and all the other perks as well as boosts to existing perks it continued to get as time went on. So by the end of the manga after accumulating all these boosts/new abilities, there is no way in hell Hydra and Gensis of Rebirth can measure up to Sennin Modo (even Jiriaya's less complete one). 

Same thing with Tsunade's Gensis of Rebirth it could have initially been balanced out well with the other Sannin's capabilities, but than once Kishi decided to asspull Byakugou techs and giving them tons of nonsense power ups, in-order to make Sakura relevant in the final battle, he once again way over powered that shit, and there is no way in hell Jiriaya's  Sennin Modo and Hydra can compete with Byakugou.

And again it's the same thing w/ Edo-Tensei. Initially Edo-Tensei on the level of what was shown against Hiruzen could have been dealt with by the other two Sannin, but than the Kage's and Hokage's strength got retecon'd, and Kishi decided that for plot reasons Orochimaru needed to be able to summon all 4 Hokages. At which point everything the other two Sannin can do pales in comparison to this, not to mention to pull off that stunt Orochimaru got his hands on Hashirama DNA, which also probably enhanced him greatly, even though we never saw much of it.

TLDR: 

The Sannin being equals was retecon'd (or abandoned) around the time of the Pain Arc. At which point Jiraiya became way stronger than the other two Sannin, due to Kishi dick riding Sennin Modo. Than in the war due to Kishi suddenly remembering that Sakura was the main heroin, he asspulled Byakugou Techs and thus made Tsunade [w/ seal charged] way stronger than the other two. But than he needed the Hokages to come back so he asspulled Edo-Tensei retecon, thus making Orochimaru the strongest non Juubi-Jin/Naru/Sasu character in the entire verse by a large margin. Or to put it another way:

Orochimaru after Edo-Tensei Retecon >>>>>>> Tsunade after Byakugou asspull >>>>>> Jiriaya after SM dick riding >>>>>> Jiraiya w/ SM as it originally appeared in Pain fight ≈ Orochimaru w/ Hydra & Edo-Tensei ≈ Tsunade w/ large Gensis of Rebirth storage.

Edit: Oh and people saying they are still equals need to pass the splif because Orochimaru would rape Jiriaya and Tsunade w/o literally having to lift a finger himself. Tsunade if allowed to store chakra in her Byakugou Seal for any sizable duration of time would rape Jiriaya.


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## Icegaze (Feb 23, 2015)

@turrin I firmly disagree
Unless oro has a zetsu body he doesn't have the ability to summon ET strong enough 
It won't be precise enough . Which makes them easy for the other Sanin to deal with 

SM is overall hax however no one can jiriaya deal with that the other 2 can't 

Where kishi lacks was in elaborating on oro hydra Jutsu which he called its strongest. Which could easily have been shown . A transformation tech which regens with extra head while spreading poison is haxx 

Jiriaya doesn't edge out with sage mode considering orochimaru can use senjutsu as well . Granted it wasn't shown but no reason to believe his level would be below jiriaya 

Tsunade can't use sage mode however her byakuyo covers that fantastically


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 23, 2015)

Kishi originally seems to have some idea on Tsunade's new power for her fight against Pain, but the editors go full retarded and troll it. Then it comes Byakugo, that's poorly fleshed out in order to show the "teamwork" of the Gokage instead of a Hokage solo show. And the 5% Katsuyu lol. 

I honestly can't see Tsunade being on par with the other 2 in combat even by portrayal she should be. Then again, Oro is supposed to go serious and have some new feats with Hiruzen but fuck this Fagoromo shit. Jiraiya is the only one Kishi successfully portrays where Sannin level is supposed to be.


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## Turrin (Feb 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @turrin I firmly disagree
> Unless oro has a zetsu body he doesn't have the ability to summon ET strong enough
> It won't be precise enough . Which makes them easy for the other Sanin to deal with


Which he has 



> SM is overall hax however no one can jiriaya deal with that the other 2 can't


I said the other two are much stronger than Jiraiya now. Unless you mean before Edo-Tensei retecon and Byakugou asspull. If so no they can't.



> Where kishi lacks was in elaborating on oro hydra Jutsu which he called its strongest. Which could easily have been shown . A transformation tech which regens with extra head while spreading poison is haxx


Hydra is horrendously weak next to Sennin Modo, Byakugou Techs, and Edo-Tensei.



> Jiriaya doesn't edge out with sage mode considering orochimaru can use senjutsu as well . Granted it wasn't shown but no reason to believe his level would be below jiriaya


Except that it was stated to be 



> Tsunade can't use sage mode however her byakuyo covers that fantastica


I said Byakoug >>>>> Jiraiya's Sennin Modo.


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## Rocky (Feb 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Same thing with Tsunade's Gensis of Rebirth it could have initially been balanced out well with the other Sannin's capabilities, but than once Kishi decided to asspull Byakugou techs and giving them tons of nonsense power ups, in-order to make Sakura relevant in the final battle, he once again way over powered that shit, and there is no way in hell Jiriaya's  Sennin Modo and Hydra can compete with Byakugou.



We had just seen Tsunade in action against Madara. She didn't look stronger than Jiraiya.


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## Icegaze (Feb 23, 2015)

@ turrin 
 
Read OP or don't bother with the thread


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## Turrin (Feb 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> We had just seen Tsunade in action against Madara. She didn't look stronger than Jiraiya.


Tsunade had what a month worth of chakra stored in her Byakugou no In at that point. And that alone boosted her to the point where she was keeping up moderately well with Edo-Madara in speed, was beating down Susano'o, and super charging Jinton to the point where the cube could erase 25 Susano'o. Than there is Sakura who according to Kishi went from irrelevant Fodder tier to god level simply due to 3 years of Byakugou storage. Yeah Kishi made a fucking mess of that power



Icegaze said:


> @ turrin
> 
> Read OP or don't bother with the thread





Icegaze said:


> I for one utterly believe so, despite kishi failing in several departments in the story this is one department despite the lack of feats from all 3 of them due to how versatile they are, he did overall put them on equal footing


That's what I was responding to.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 23, 2015)

IMO

Orochimaru (Edo summons)
_-gap-_
Sage Jiraiya
_-gap-_
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Tsunade
_-gap-_
Tsunade (part one)​


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## Icegaze (Feb 23, 2015)

@strat
Oro without Zetsu body can't summon any ET with enough power to be any more than a stall tactic


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## Complete_Ownage (Feb 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Orochimaru after Edo-Tensei Retecon >>>>>>> Tsunade after Byakugou >>>>>>  >>>>>> Jiraiya w/ SM as it originally appeared in Pain fight > Orochimaru w/ Hydra & Edo-Tensei > Tsunade w/ large Gensis of Rebirth storage.



Turrin pretty much has it correct. I have always said the Sannin were never represented to be equals. 

Part 1:
Orochimaru was easily portrayed to be the supier to his fellow piers
Jiraiya comes next
Tsunade last

Pain Arc:
Jiraiya easily jumps to the top
Orochimaru 
Tsunade 

End of series:
Orochimaru - Edo Tensei hokages + hashi cells( which we didnt see much of but look at the insane buffs it provided others
Tsunade 
Jiraiya

Orochimaru could probably crush Tsuande and Jiraiya with his new enchancments pretty easily


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 23, 2015)

I always thought they were equal, and if we look at the Sannin battle, it worked out that Jiraiya lost to Orochimaru who lost to Tsunade, even though none of them finished each other off.  I figured if it came up, the same thing would happen again regardless of power ups.

Though ability and feat wise, I thought Jiraiya was ahead with Sage Mode, and Tsunade lagged behind, until I found out Byako was some sort of Sage Mode equivalent, and Kishi just sucked at portraying it or mentioning the boosts during her actual fight.  Allowing you to super charge your stats and any and all jutsu with Byako chakra makes Tsunade really powerful, particularly when Byako boost can turn Obito's 1 dimensional kamui into a multi-dimensional jutsu that Kaguya finds taxing.  Orochimaru was always in the middle in feats and jutsu.  But his chakra also morphed into sage chakra, and the surplus chakra gained from just Anko's cursed seal turned out to be enough to take total control over every Edo Summon in the war, and then he got Hashirama cells.  So it almost feels like Jiraiya might lag behind, but I know that if Jiraiya had been brought back when the manga got stupid, he'd have gotten stupid performance boosts to go along with it, and been roughly the same as the other Sannin.  We might have seen Kishi doing that with the databook, where he was like, "Jiraiya totally has sage kata and sensing even though it invalidates the plot."  ...if you don't accept alternate explanations, and take it at face value.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> We had just seen Tsunade in action against Madara. She didn't look stronger than Jiraiya.



We had just seen Guy get trashed by edo Madara, before he rushed JJ Madara with 7 gates and blew him wit space time taijutsu.

We had just seen Sasuke perform below Itachi in speed and reactions against Kabuto, before he started running with hiraishin users.  

We had just seen Sakura get shown up by Tsunade, before she became relevant in the Kaguya fight.  

There are very clearly shenanigans at work.


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## Bonly (Feb 23, 2015)

Personally I always thought they were equals in their own ways even if one was slightly portrayed  better then the other in a certain aspect.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 23, 2015)

I don't think Jiraiya having Kawazu Kumite invalidates the plot, since we would have only seen it if he missed his opponents with his Taijutsu strikes and that never happened.


The way I see it is:

1. Sage Mode Jiraiya has multiple high-level, body-enveloping wide-ranged offenses that can exhaust Tsunade's regeneration faster than he exhausts himself using said techniques (due to the cost efficiency of Senjutsu).

2. Orochimaru can survive Jiraiya's attacks and is deadly to anyone who can't counter his paralytic neurotoxins, which he is likely to resort to before simply getting outlasted.

3. Tsunade's supplementary abilities allow her to speed through the effects of those neurotoxins and keep fighting while Jiraiya has no such skills to counter.

Toad > Slug > Snake > Toad.




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> There are very clearly shenanigans at work.



Yes indeed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 23, 2015)

Sage sensing does, because it senses badness and lets you reacted to stuff like ambushes and surprise attacks, such as Asura coming up behind Jiraiya, and Jiraiya requiring Ma's tongue detection to find the chameleon.  Jiraiya could have just...found it.  Also, if Sage Sensing worked back then like it does now, Ma wouldn't need her tongue snake.  She'd just sense it.  

The alternative explanation is to say Jiraiya has the frogs on his shoulders, and his shoulder frogs can sense, and and do frog katas, so that's why the DB grants it to him.  That still doesn't explain the difference in sensing...


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## FlamingRain (Feb 24, 2015)

Sage Mode senses Chakra _(1)_. KCM senses badness, and even it couldn't tell where that chameleon was _(2)_. It could just be that the chameleon's Chakra is concealed as well, so even Ma, who could sense Pain in the village before they saw him, had to sniff it out with her tongue technique.

As for the ambush: Naruto also failed to sense Preta come back before his Rasenshuriken got eaten, so...


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## Velocity (Feb 24, 2015)

Like most cases with Kishimoto, the woman wasn't as strong as she should have been. Jiraiya was definitely the strongest of the three, even with an incomplete Sage Mode. He proved in his fight against Pain that, if he wanted to go all out, Jiraiya could take Orochimaru pretty handily. This is the same Orochimaru, after all, who admitted he couldn't beat a Four Tailed Naruto while Jiraiya seemed to have been able to handle it off-panel. Considering he can't have used Sage Mode since it takes too long to "charge", I think it goes without saying that Jiraiya was strongest followed by Orochimaru and then Tsunade.



Turrin said:


> I said Byakoug >>>>> Jiraiya's Sennin Modo.



Which is kinda nonsense. Byakugo didn't even help Tsunade survive getting bifurcated by Madara. If it wasn't for the fact she was the unholy spawn of a Senju and an Uzumaki, she would've died. Yeah, rapid regeneration is kinda awesome but that's all Byakugo does. Senjutsu, on the other hand, was proven to be a major power up for everyone - so much so that both Hashirama and Minato could use it and the Cursed Seal was retconned into being Senjutsu Lite so Sasuke could too.

In terms of plot significance, Sage Mode wins. In terms of the buff it grants, Sage Mode wins again. Jiraiya's Sage Mode may have been incomplete (which is insulting since even Minato mastered Sage Mode and he admitted he sucked at it) but he had the two toads on his shoulders to provide all sorts of ridiculous benefits like that sound-based genjutsu.


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## Icegaze (Feb 24, 2015)

@kuvira orochimaru never said he couldn't beat a 4 tailed naruto 
Also jiraiya showings against pain in no way outdo what orochimaru could have done 

Instead of frog song he could have casually decided to use ET. Even at the part 1 level his ET could take those intial paths 1 on 1 . Allowing him to poison each path or Kusanagi their heads off

Oro takes out the first 3 paths with the same ease jiraiya had . So would tsunade 

People just so focused on jiraiya abilities they forget people like oro use poison which is 1 hit KO 
Tsunade punches any path once it won't get up 

As for dorect battle against jiraiya. Jiraiya has to use frog song to put either tsunade or oro down 

They have multiple ways and easier ways of killing him . Any tsunade punch kills jiraiya . Any snake bite or Kusanagi strike eventually kills jiraiya


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## Veracity (Feb 24, 2015)

@ Kuriva
Why would Byakago help Tsuande from being in half when the technique wasn't activated when said action occurred?


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## Thunder (Feb 24, 2015)

Kuvira said:


> Like most cases with Kishimoto, the woman wasn't as strong as she should have been. Jiraiya was definitely the strongest of the three, even with an incomplete Sage Mode. He proved in his fight against Pain that, if he wanted to go all out, Jiraiya could take Orochimaru pretty handily. This is the same Orochimaru, after all, who admitted he couldn't beat a Four Tailed Naruto while Jiraiya seemed to have been able to handle it off-panel. Considering he can't have used Sage Mode since it takes too long to "charge", I think it goes without saying that Jiraiya was strongest followed by Orochimaru and then Tsunade.



I agree with your conclusion here (Sage Jiraiya > Orochimaru > Tsunade). 

After all, Orochimaru expressed that he wanted Sage Mode but was never able to achieve it, probably because his host body couldn't handle it. And while Jiraiya's version is imperfect it's still more usable in battle than, say, Minato's version. With it Jiraiya defeated three paths of Pain with zero knowledge which is impressive. Nagato even remarked Jiraiya had could've gone further than that if he had intel. 

What about Edo Tensei? If we're accounting for that I wouldn't fault anyone for thinking Orochimaru is superior to Sage Jiraiya. Or at least his equal. Depends on who Orochimaru's allowed to bring back. 

And a few things regarding Orochimaru's fight with 4-tailed Naruto:


Orochimaru's body was rejecting him.
Orochimaru couldn't use his arms.
. Orochimaru could've done the same if he had one. He could've placed one here instead of going for a punch.
We can't say for sure how 4-tailed Naruto vs. Orochimaru would've gone down had Orochimaru not been so handicapped. Personally? I think Orochimaru could've handled it albeit with some difficultly. Even in his weakened state Orochimaru still managed to counter 4-tailed Naruto's strongest attack: the Bijūdama.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 25, 2015)

Orochimaru's power fluctuated greatly. I always thought that his strength at maximum potential was above his teammates. 

He started out as a true unstoppable menace. Going about his business with Sarutobi being unable to do a thing to stop him. He even intimidated his former teacher into continuing Chunin Exams. We do have Ebisu's statement "to deal with Sannin we need another Sannin" but if Jiraiya truly stood a good chance of beating him - he would've done that years ago imo. 

We know that Jiraiya isn't Naruto and his situation was different. He understood that Oro was irredeemable. He also was willing to kill Tsunade to protect Konoha. Yet while constantly spying on Oro he didn't attempt to stop him. Considering the quality of J-Man's spy-network I doubt it was simply because he couldn't find his main hideout. He knew the details about Fushi Tensei, knew about Akatsuki and later found out about Pain. He knew where Orochimaru was, what crazy shit he was doing and his malicious intent towards Konoha. But he didn't stop him. Even though we know he isn't above killing his teammates if necessary. 

Orochimaru off-paneled Kazekage and killed Sarutobi who at the time was hyped as the strongest Kage. But he lost his best Edo Tensei and his arms in process. Afterwards in the Sannin showdown he trashtalks Jiraiya and briefly fights against both of his former teammates. He lost but still looked impressive considering his condition.

After that he was forced to jump into some scrub's body which wasn't strong enough to handle his chakra and went to shit in 3 years. He fought off KN4 and dicked around. Claiming that Sasuke is still stronger than Naruto. And called the fight "playtime". Only leaving because his body started to reject him. Turns out(more like retcons out though) aside from a shitty body he lacked most of his jutsu due to his hands still damaged by Shiki Fujin. We never saw all-out serious Orochimaru fight. He had a proper body and Edo Tensei vs Sarutobi but it was still Part 1 powerlevels with Orochimaru not taking the fight seriously. After that he was either in a completely shitty condition or in a semi-shitty condition. Imo Healthy Oro with prep > SM Jiraiya. J-Man wasn't confident in his chances so he tried to mess with Orochimaru indirectly by learning as much info as possible and support Konoha when he tried to attack.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 25, 2015)

I don't think Orochimaru has a "main" base, but...

Jiraiya said he would kill Tsunade as opposed to taking out Orochimaru when he learned that she might strike a deal with him.

Orochimaru hid behind Kabuto's plan and hemophobia against Tsunade even though he didn't hesitate to go after Jiraiya.

Tsunade didn't even argue with Jiraiya's death threat but then said she was going to kill Orochimaru.

Even the Sannin's degree of wariness towards each other reflects the three-way-deadlock they're based on. Snake > Toad is just a part of that relationship, so I don't think singling out its presence in the manga really negates the overarching equality implication.


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2015)

Yes flamming rain awesome points


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 25, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't think Orochimaru has a "main" base, but...
> 
> Jiraiya said he would kill Tsunade as opposed to taking out Orochimaru when he learned that she might strike a deal with him.
> 
> ...



I agree with rain on this one, and just to piggy back off this, i believe this was also reflected threw there boss summons when they fought, manda almost easily blitzed bunta, and would have beaten him had no one intervene, yet katsuya was able to defend herself and break her self out of mandas attack.


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## Turrin (Feb 27, 2015)

Kuvira said:


> Which is kinda nonsense. Byakugo didn't even help Tsunade survive getting bifurcated by Madara.If it wasn't for the fact she was the unholy spawn of a Senju and an Uzumaki, she would've died.


Yeah it did:
Tobirama explicitly said he tagged him AFTER Juubito eviscerated him.



> Yeah, rapid regeneration is kinda awesome but that's all Byakugo does.


That's just flat out wrong.

1) It drastically enhances someones physical capabilities:

"Release the chakra stored in ones forehead. Wounds completely recover, while at the same time ones own power rises*"

2) It can be used to boost Jutsu, see Sakura's Okasho, Onoki's Jinton, and Obito's Kamui

3) It can be used to provide a huge amount of chakra to pull from, see Sakura and Tsunade's usage of the stored chakra Katsuyu Daibunretsu or utilizing it to summon larger portions of Katsuya



> . Senjutsu, on the other hand, was proven to be a major power up for everyone - so much so that both Hashirama and Minato could use it and the Cursed Seal was retconned into being Senjutsu Lite so Sasuke could too.


Byakugo took Sakura from being fodder to Pain to being one of the alstars against fucking Juubi-Jins and Kaguya. Senjutsu pales in comparison to that upgrade.



> In terms of plot significance, Sage Mode wins.


Base-Rasengan has had more plot significance than BijuudamaFRS consistently throughout the manga. I guess that means Base-Rasengan >>>>> Bijuudama-FRS 



> In terms of the buff it grants, Sage Mode wins again.  Jiraiya's Sage Mode may have been incomplete (which is insulting since even Minato mastered Sage Mode and he admitted he sucked at it) but he had the two toads on his shoulders to provide all sorts of ridiculous benefits like that sound-based genjutsu.


Again Byakugo made SAKURA USEFUL AGAINST GODS. I'm not sure if you grasp how ridiculous of a power boost that is, but Sakura was totally fucking useless for 90% of the manga and than she got Byakugo and she is one of the MVP's in the final fight. That makes Byakugo the single biggest power up outside Dojutsu and Bijuu Powers.

In terms of power ups. 

Yes Senjutsu increases the potency of Jutsu, but Byakugo increased it VASTLY more. Compare how much Tsunade's Byakugo enhanced Onoki's Jinton or even more ridiculously how much Sakura's Byakugo enhanced Obito's Kamui to how much Senjutsu enhanced Jiraiya's Rasengan, it's not even remotely close. Fuck compare how much Byakugo enhanced Sakura's Okahso and it's not even close. 

SM enhances speed, great, Byakugou enhanced Sakura to the point of blitzing Kaguya (albeit she was distracted, but still it was fucking KAGUYA). It's not even close.

SM enhances durability and regen, Byakugo allowed Tsunade to save an entire village from CST, survive being sliced in half, and Sakura survived Juubidara's fucking Gododama. Again it's not even close.

SM enhances strength. Byakugo allowed Tsunade's strength to increase to the point where she went from handicapped Orochimaru surviving her blows to fucking blowing through Susano'o and Madara (madara by himself blocked Ei's attack), and later beating down even Stage 3 Susano'o. And increased Sakura to the point where she could harm FUCKING KAGUYA more than fucking GODRUTO. 

Senjutsu increases someone's chakra capacity. Byakugo increased Tsunade to the point of being able to super charge Jinto to be half the size of P-Susano'o after all the other shit she did and increase Sakura to the point where she could boost Kamui multiple times to KAGUYA like dimension transversing. It's not even close.

It's such a pipe dream that Senjutsu even comes close to Byakugo, it's insane. 

Byakuga is the most nonsense power up in the entire fucking story and it's not even close.


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## Rocky (Feb 27, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Fodder to Pain to being one of the alstars against fucking Juubi-Jins and Kaguya.



I wouldn't consider her an all-star.

She was kind of dead _here_, and _here_ in one move, and _here,_ etc.

It is true that the actual all-stars also needed saving at points, but the difference is that they could actually mount an offense against Kaguya individually for limited amounts of time. Sakura was only ever a minor combo piece at the very end of the fight. 



> It's such a pipe dream that Senjutsu even comes close to Byakugo, it's insane.



Nah, Senjutsu & Dojutsu, the abilities of the main characters, are above Byakugo. You're taking the best Byakugo user and pitting her against one of the worst Sages. Senjutsu in the hands of Naruto or Hagoromo is above that of Sakura's Byakugo.

Senjutsu allowed Naruto to blitz Kaguya without distraction, took Naruto's Rasen-techniques to new heights, gave him the strength to overpower a Jubi Jinchuriki even without Rikudo Sage Mode, etc.


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I wouldn't consider her an all-star.
> 
> She was kind of dead _here_, and _here_ in one move, and _here,_ etc.
> 
> It is true that the actual all-stars also needed saving at points, but the difference is that they could actually mount an offense against Kaguya individually for limited amounts of time. Sakura was only ever a minor combo piece at the very end of the fight.


Dude if Sakura performed to the standards your requiring of her she'd be Godsuke and Godnaruto "level", and Byakugo would put even Juubi to shame as a power up. That's not what's being discussed here. What is being discussed is how much Byakugo can enhance someone's capabilities versus how much Toad-SM can enhance someone's capabilities. Sakura was able to fight proficiently against God-Tier characters, sure it was in a team setting, but she still had a huge impact on turning the tide of God-Tier battle in a way that other extremely powerful characters were useless in accomplishing. 

And this is Sakura were talking about. Sakura a character who outside of Byakugo is probably at best equivalent with Start-of-Part II Naruto. Give Start-of-Part II Naruto Toad-SM and throw him into a fight with God Tiers and he won't even remotely approach how useful and effective Sakura was, team or no team. Heck throw SM-Jiriaya into a fight 



> It's such a pipe dream that Senjutsu even comes close to Byakugo, it's insane.
> Nah, Senjutsu & Dojutsu, the abilities of the main characters, are above Byakugo. You're taking the best Byakugo user and pitting her against one of the worst Sages. Senjutsu in the hands of Naruto or Hagoromo is above that of Sakura's Byakugo.


We're talking about Byakugo versus Standard Toad-SM, not Hagoromo God SM or All natural energy in the world SM.

And Sakura was better than Tsunade, but not by a massive margin; Tsunade showed she could also store close to 3 years worth of chakra in her seal leading up to the Pain-Arc.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 28, 2015)

Hey Turrin, was Byakugō specified by the databook to enhance one's _physical_ abilities _directly_?

Honest question I'm asking because I always figured that the apparent enhancement was simply due to Tsunade and Sakura themselves using the unlocked Chakra to up the amount of power they put into their own techniques (meaning that they should be able to redirect it towards whatever they choose to after releasing the reserve seal, hence we see the reason why the databook says the stored Chakra is _"usually put to use to..."_), but that kind of boost is only the result of an additional free decision- it's indirect.

In other words I'm more or less saying that I assumed "3)" on your list was what explained "2)", which might give the appearance of "1)" as opposed to them actually being distinct abilities in and of themselves; that "one's own power rising" was just referencing how the user can boost their Jutsu (Sōzō Saisei, CES, Chakra Transfer) even more as a result of having access to so much extra Chakra.


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## Thunder (Feb 28, 2015)

> Byakogou Sousou Saisei
> 
> For several years using the highest most precise chakra control, a fixed  amount is stored in the Byakugou seal. The chakra is usually put to use  to regenerate the body through the Ninjutsu technique "Sousou Saisei",  the combination results in the ultimate regeneration Jutsu.
> 
> ...



This is Turrin's translation of Byakugō that I found in the databook thread, not sure if it was updated. Let's wait for Turrin.

If this is accurate: it's odd how Kishimoto never went in depth about Byakugō's other perks in the manga. We were led to belive it just provided healing without needing seals. I mean, how could we tell it also boosted Tsunade's power? She's already strong in that department without a boost.

In any case, it's nice to see Tsunade has her own confirmed "mode" like Jiraiya and Orochimaru.


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## Rocky (Feb 28, 2015)

It looked as if Sakura's abilities were boosted as soon as she activated the Byakugo no In, rather than Byakugo Sousou Saisei. He feats against Kaguya came when she only had the diamond activated, not the Byakugo tattoos.


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

@Thunder & FlamingRain

Yeah what I got from the text was that it also increased her physical abilities, because "while at the same time ones own power rises" suggest it and it was also the text beneath the picture of Tsunade punching Madara, which further supports that. I didn't want to make the call at the time though, but since confirmed it with I believe it was steel (maybe even Takl) I forget who I asked, but I remember coming to a general consensus at the time with other translators that my interpretation/trans was correct.

And yeah Kishi did a very poor job in general w/ Byakugo because Byakugo was an asspull power up out of nowhere. I mean it's very clear that Kishi didn't have the idea during the Pain-Arc, as Tsunade just uses Gensis or Rebirth to heal the village, and I don't think Kishi even had the idea of how much Byakugo can enhance a person's abilities during the Gokage vs Madara battle, and than just kept reteconing it to further boost someone throughout the Juubi/Madara/Obito/Kaguya battle, in-order to keep Sakura relevant. Basically it's a mess. 

For example w/ Full Byakugo chakra storage Sakura's strikes showed a marked increase in power against the Juublings, but they were still Juubilings; later Sakura's punch is enhanced by Byakugo enough to damage Kaguya, even after expending most of her Byakugo chakra previously. Or Sakura seemingly being exhausted after using 1/10th Katsuya alongside Tsunade to combat the effects of Shinju Tree, but than later Sakura is shown to still have enough chakra to boost Kamui multiple times to Kaguya dimension scale and more chakra than a Godruto clone.



Rocky said:


> It looked as if Sakura's abilities were boosted as soon as she activated the Byakugo no In, rather than Byakugo Sousou Saisei. He feats against Kaguya came when she only had the diamond activated, not the Byakugo tattoos.



A Byakugo users can release chakra stored in their forehead w/o using it for Byakugo Sousou Saisei, so I imagine that is how Sakura was enhancing her physical capabilities and techniques against enemies like Kaguya.


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## Rocky (Mar 1, 2015)

I know that. It's just weird, because all of Sakura's feats came when she wasn't in Byakugo. The only thing she actually did in the form was get blocked by Limbo Hengoku. Yet with Tsunade, her best feats came with Byakugo activated.

My question essentially is what is the super form? The diamond (Sakura), or the tattoos (Tsunade)?


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I know that. It's just weird, because all of Sakura's feats came when she wasn't in Byakugo. The only thing she actually did in the form was get blocked by Limbo Hengoku. Yet with Tsunade, her best feats came with Byakugo activated.
> 
> My question essentially is what is the super form? The diamond (Sakura), or the tattoos (Tsunade)?


Their is no super form. They have a massive amount of chakra stored in Byakugo no In. At different times they can draw different amounts of chakra from that seal, hence their performance will depend on how much chakra they are drawing out at any given time. So it doesn't matter if they are in Tattoo or Diamond form, it just matters how much chakra they are drawing out. Unfortunately Kishi didn't ever bother to come up with a way to convey to readers how much chakra they were drawing out in certain situations. Like how much chakra was Sakura drawing out when attacking Madara versus how much was she drawing out when punching Kaguya; we don't know.


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## Rocky (Mar 1, 2015)

So the tattoos we see are just the markings of Creation Rebirth when powered by Byakugo? Then why did they appear on Obito when Sakura powered Kamui?


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So the tattoos we see are just the markings of Creation Rebirth when powered by Byakugo? Then why did they appear on Obito when Sakura powered Kamui?


Probably because Sakura was also healing Obito from the strain of MS and his body already being pushed beyond it's limits.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It looked as if Sakura's abilities were boosted as soon as she activated the Byakugo no In, rather than Byakugo Sousou Saisei. He feats against Kaguya came when she only had the diamond activated, not the Byakugo tattoos.



Apparently Sakura had been holding back for 3 years. Her seal was not released, and so it could not possibly have increased her power. There is a reason that the _Infūin: Kai_ exists as a technique. Storing up chakra inside her seal seemed to have restricted the chakra/chakra control she could put behind her strikes, which is why once she stopped storing chakra up, the power behind her strikes increased exponentially. 



Turrin said:


> @Thunder & FlamingRain
> 
> Yeah what I got from the text was that it also increased her physical abilities, because "while at the same time ones own power rises" suggest it and it was also the text beneath the picture of Tsunade punching Madara, which further supports that. I didn't want to make the call at the time though, but since confirmed it with I believe it was steel (maybe even Takl) I forget who I asked, but I remember coming to a general consensus at the time with other translators that my interpretation/trans was correct.



Byakugō does give the user more chakra, so of course it means Sakura and Tsunade can channel more chakra behind their strikes. However, I don't think that's any guarantee of anything. Nothing suggests that Tsunade didn't possess the necessary strength to smash his Susano'o even _before_ she activated Byakugō. In base she had the upper body strength to effortlessly lift Gamabunta's tanto, and with just the tip of one finger she could make massive fissures in the ground. That was just in Part I too. I don't see why she would have needed a huge chakra boost to break through his defenses. 

Before Tsunade engages Madara she notes that only a medic who has mastered Sōzō Saisei is able to stand on the front-lines and fight. I think thats partly what the databook means by Byakugō increasing ones " own power ", assuming that is in fact what it says/means. Because the user can never die, they become an immediately more fierce combatant. That seems more likely, imo.



> And yeah Kishi did a very poor job in general w/ Byakugo because Byakugo was an asspull power up out of nowhere. I mean it's very clear that Kishi didn't have the idea during the Pain-Arc, as Tsunade just uses Gensis or Rebirth to heal the village, and I don't think Kishi even had the idea of how much Byakugo can enhance a person's abilities during the Gokage vs Madara battle, and than just kept reteconing it to further boost someone throughout the Juubi/Madara/Obito/Kaguya battle, in-order to keep Sakura relevant. Basically it's a mess.



Tsunade didn't use Sōzō Saisei on the villagers during the Pein arc, she just released her Byakugō seal and used the chakra to mass heal them. Regeneration is different from regular healing, its something she can't use/doesn't use on other people, probably because it would forcibly shorten their lifespan.



> A Byakugo users can release chakra stored in their forehead w/o using it for Byakugo Sousou Saisei, so I imagine that is how Sakura was enhancing her physical capabilities and techniques against enemies like Kaguya.



The Byakugō seal _wasn't released_ when Sakura hit Kaguya, so it was just her base strength. It might have been inconsistent, but then again, power inflation went crazy in those chapters, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to it.​​


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## Rocky (Mar 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Probably because Sakura was also healing Obito from the strain of MS and his body already being pushed beyond it's limits.



Creation Rebirth is self regeneration. I thought it couldn't be used on others?


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Byakugō does give the user more chakra, so of course it means Sakura and Tsunade can channel more chakra behind their strikes. However, I don't think that's any guarantee of anything. Nothing suggests that Tsunade didn't possess the necessary strength to smash his Susano'o even _before_ she activated Byakugō. In base she had the upper body strength to effortlessly lift Gamabunta's tanto, and with just the tip of one finger she could make massive fissures in the ground. That was just in Part I too. I don't see why she would have needed a huge chakra boost to break through his defenses.
> 
> Before Tsunade engages Madara she notes that only a medic who has mastered Sōzō Saisei is able to stand on the front-lines and fight. I think thats partly what the databook means by Byakugō increasing ones " own power ", assuming that is in fact what it says/means. Because the user can never die, they become an immediately more fierce combatant. That seems more likely, imo.


These are non Byakugo Tsunade's strikes:
Here
Here
Here
Here

These are Byakugo Tsunade's strikes:
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This is Non Byakugo Sakura's strikes:
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Byakugo Sakura's Strikes:
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Non-Byakugo Tsunade's strikes created similar craters in the earth to Ei's blows, yet when met with Susano'o she was out performing Ei in damage once she activated Byakugo; not to mention Madara stating she was much stronger than Ei. Additionally while Orochimaru head actually tanked Tsunade's non Byakugo blow, Tsunade's Byakugo blow went straight through Madara, who has better durability (not regen, but durability) than Orochimaru, being able to withstand Ei's blow with his physical body.

Non-Byakugo Sakura went from creating her relatively modest crater and summon bashing punches to creating a shockwave that dwarfed the large Juublings and fucking overpowering Kaguya's physical strength. And even clearly example can be seen when Sakura punches the Juubling w/o Byakugo and it resists her strike and than she forms the seal sending it flying like nothing.

It's very clear that Byakugo was enhancing them. Additionally the problem with your hypothesis that is that the statement from the DB about their power rising is mentioned within the context of the pic Tsunade punching Madara, which sets up the context of what power refers to.



> Tsunade didn't use Sōzō Saisei on the villagers during the Pein arc, she just released her Byakugō seal and used the chakra to mass heal them. Regeneration is different from regular healing, its something she can't use/doesn't use on other people, probably because it would forcibly shorten their lifespan.


She used Infuuin Kai to power Katsuya's healing and channeled Sousou Saisei through Katsuya to enhance Katsuyu Daibunretsu, is my understanding of that scene.



> The Byakugō seal wasn't released when Sakura hit Kaguya, so it was just her base strength.


Your actually wrong. The Markings appearing isn't releasing the seal, it's the usage of Sousou Saisei. Sakura and Tsunade can release the chakra stored in their Byakugo seal w/o using Sousou Saisei and thus not forming the markings. Tsunade was doing so after being cut in half by Madara to channel chakra to Katsuya to heal her and the other Gokage. Sakura was doing so when she was using Katsuyu Daibunretsu, Okasho, and so on.



> It might have been inconsistent, but then again, power inflation went crazy in those chapters, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to it.


Shit was really inconsistent, but saying meh power inflation is silly when we have a _rational_ explanation via the stated and shown mechanics of Byakugo.



Rocky said:


> Creation Rebirth is self regeneration. I thought it couldn't be used on others?


Apparently it can.


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## Thunder (Mar 1, 2015)

Yeah, Byakugō seems a mess and still kinda confuses me. Thanks for your insight into the translation, Turrin.


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Yeah, Byakugō seems a mess and still kinda confuses me. Thanks for your insight into the translation, Turrin.



Byakugo makes sense in context with what we've been shown in the manga. We've been shown that characters can utilize chakra, especially high quantities to vitalize their bodies and increase their physical capabilities, as well as increase the output of ones Jutsu. So Sakura and Tsunade having 2.5 to 3 years worth of chakra to channel into these things would obviously receive astounding results. The problem isn't so much w/ Byakugo's mechanics, but the execution of the technique in the story. 

Because Kishi pulls Byakugo out of nowhere, Sakura dramatic increase in power and even Tsunade's, is too jarring for readers to really accept. I imagine if Sakura had the proper spotlight of a main character throughout the story, instead of being an after-thought, we would have seen Sakura training her ass off to maintain the explosive amount of chakra she stored in her seal and learning to utilize it effectively in vitalizing her body and channeling it through her Jutsu. Additionally because Sakura and to a lesser extent Tsunade were never built up as being that skilled or that strong of Ninja prior to Byakugo, it is further jarring that they suddenly have a power that could increase their capabilities so greatly. And finally I think Kishi overpowered Byakugo way too much, as nothing should be able to make someone like Sakura able to knock Kaguya's block off, thus making it even further jarring.

It also doesn't help that Sakura is one of the most despised characters in the manga and Tsunade has the least amount of fans among the Sannin.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Thunder & FlamingRain
> 
> Yeah what I got from the text was that it also increased her physical abilities, because "while at the same time ones own power rises" suggest it and it was also the text beneath the picture of Tsunade punching Madara, which further supports that.



I don't think it necessarily follows from that that the user's _physicality_ is _directly_ enhanced, though, which was my question.

Tsunade could have simply been using Ōkashō there, and the damage dealt from that technique has _always_ been dependent on the amount of Chakra put into the Jutsu, so it doesn't suggest that Byakugō inherently results in an increase in _physical_ attributes.

If I'm right that "3)" on your initial list explains "2)" which gives the appearance of "1)" because it's just the user intentionally putting some of that extra Chakra to use by boosting their own techniques, then I don't think Kishimoto has told us anything that we didn't already know.


By the way, this:



> The Markings appearing isn't releasing the seal, it's the usage of Sousou Saisei.



is incorrect.


*Spoiler*: _Databook 2- Infuuin Kai_ 



Databook 2 - Infuuin: Kai: 
Yin Seal: Release* (陰封印・解, Infuuin: Kai)
Fuuinjutsu, S-rank, Supplementary
User: Tsunade

Unravelling the key to using the "Genesis Rebirth"**!!

"Genesis Rebirth," the ultimate medical technique. However, using this technique requires such an enormous amount of chakra, that it is beyond any shinobi to mould it in an instant. Tsunade, using the chakra stock kept in the seal on her forehead, has cleared this prerequisite. With "Yin Seal: Release," the seal is released, becoming the source for the body regeneration technique.

*[picture of Tsunade releasing the Yin Seal]
↑The moment it is unsealed, a pattern appears on the forehead.
*

[picture of Shizune preventing Tsunade from releasing the Yin Seal]
←Releasing the seal is the greatest danger signal.

*Kai (解) literally means "untie," "unravel". I though "release" would fit better in the name.
**Genesis Rebirth (創造再生, Souzou Saisei).




If the markings signaled the usage of Sōzō Saisei instead of the seal unraveling then Tsunade would have already been regenerating by the time she stood up after decking Orochimaru, but she wasn't.


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't think it necessarily follows from that that the user's _physicality_ is _directly_ enhanced, though, which was my question.
> 
> Tsunade could have simply been using Ōkashō there, and the damage dealt from that technique has _always_ been dependent on the amount of Chakra put into the Jutsu, so it doesn't suggest that Byakugō inherently results in an increase in _physical_ attributes.
> 
> If I'm right that "3)" on your initial list explains "2)" which gives the appearance of "1)" because it's just the user intentionally putting some of that extra Chakra to use by boosting their own techniques, then I don't think Kishimoto has told us anything that we didn't already know.


The thing is Tsunade and Sakura's speed also increase due to Byakugo, and we've seen many times that vitalizing the body with chakra increases ones physical capabilites. Finally I may be remembering this wrong, but I think that the Japanese word for power there suggest physical power, which is why I thought it refers to physicality in the first place, but again I could be not remembering it correctly.



> If the markings signaled the usage of Sōzō Saisei instead of the seal unraveling then Tsunade would have already been regenerating by the time she stood up after decking Orochimaru, but she wasn't.


That is an entry for Infuin Kai from DB 2. Shit has been retecon'd since then into Byakugo, which has it's own rules, which are the ones I stated.


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## Rocky (Mar 1, 2015)

If the Byakugo seal is only in effect when the markings appear, then that means Sakura's feats were performed without Byakugo. I honestly believe that Kishi changed his  mind.


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If the Byakugo seal is only in effect when the markings appear, then that means Sakura's feats were performed without Byakugo. I honestly believe that Kishi changed his  mind.


Also it's blatantly stated that the chakra from Byakugo seal can be drawn on w/o the markings appearing by Katsuya. While on the other hand the markings on appear when using higher end regeneration at the same time as drawing from the Byakugo seal. Also the technique w/ the markings in DBIV is called Byakugo Sousou Saisei, not just Byakugo


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## Rocky (Mar 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Also it's blatantly stated that the chakra from Byakugo seal can be drawn on w/o the markings appearing by Katsuya. While on the other hand the markings on appear when using higher end regeneration at the same time as drawing from the Byakugo seal.



So your take is that Tsunade never drew on Byakugo Chakra in Base, and only when Creation Rebirth: Byakugo (CRB) was activated?



> Also the technique w/ the markings in DBIV is called Byakugo Sousou Saisei, not just Byakugo



So why is the "one's power rises" line in the entry for the healing technique and not an entry just regarding the Byakugo no In? Sakura's rise in power had nothing to do with CRB, because the spike appeared to occur the moment the Byakugo diamond itself was formed.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> These are non Byakugo Tsunade's strikes:
> Explosion is so powerful to see the curve of the Earth.
> Explosion is so powerful to see the curve of the Earth.
> Explosion is so powerful to see the curve of the Earth.
> ...



That isn't true. Ei using almost every muscle in his body for a power-bomb was able to create a crater only half the size of the one Part I Tsunade made with a single drop kick [1] [2]. Using regular punches, kicks etc the damage the Raikage inflicts is much less significant. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

You should also bare in mind that Tsunade may not always be using _chakra enhanced_ strength. It stands to reason that sometimes she is just using her base strength. This would explain why her   Tsūtenkyaku is so destructive, while some of her other attacks, like _this one_ or _these ones_, are not.



> Additionally while Orochimaru head actually tanked Tsunade's non Byakugo blow, Tsunade's Byakugo blow went straight through Madara, who has better durability (not regen, but durability) than Orochimaru, being able to withstand Ei's blow with his physical body.



Madara wasn't hit directly by Ei's blow, _he blocked_, and unless Ei is moving at full speed, which by his own admission _he wasn't_, his strikes are never _that_ destructive anyway. I would definitely argue that Base Madara's durability is below Orochimaru's, given that the latter took part of a KN4 bijuu-dama, repeated chakra roars and made contact with his burning chakra shroud without sustaining much/any damage - something which had Sakura crippled for days afterwards. Blunt force trauma does almost nothing to Orochimaru, but the same cannot be said of Madara. 



> Non-Byakugo Sakura went from creating her relatively modest crater and summon bashing punches to creating a shockwave that dwarfed the large Juublings and fucking overpowering Kaguya's physical strength. And even clearly example can be seen when Sakura punches the Juubling w/o Byakugo and it resists her strike and than she forms the seal sending it flying like nothing.



Sakura had been holding back for 3 years. Her seal was not released, and so it could not possibly have increased her power. There is a reason that the Infūin: Kai exists as a technique. Storing up chakra inside her seal seemed to have restricted the chakra/chakra control she could put behind her strikes, which is why once she stopped storing chakra up, the power behind her strikes increased exponentially. It wasn't the seal itself increasing her strength, because the chakra inside it hadn't been released.




> It's very clear that Byakugo was enhancing them. Additionally the problem with your hypothesis that is that the statement from the DB about their power rising is mentioned within the context of the pic Tsunade punching Madara, which sets up the context of what power refers to.



But the context of that setting is that Tsunade was able to punch his Susano'o _because_ she had released a technique which allowed her do so. I don't think its clear either, because no one reading that chapter immediately reached the conclusion that Byakugou is what powered her strike.




> She used Infuuin Kai to power Katsuya's healing and channeled Sousou Saisei through Katsuya to enhance Katsuyu Daibunretsu, is my understanding of that scene.



Sozou Saisei is regeneration, she did use Infuin: Kai to release her chakra and then channel it into Katsuyu, but didn't regenerate the villagers with it. 



> Your actually wrong. The Markings appearing isn't releasing the seal, it's the usage of Sousou Saisei. Sakura and Tsunade can release the chakra stored in their Byakugo seal w/o using Sousou Saisei and thus not forming the markings. Tsunade was doing so after being cut in half by Madara to channel chakra to Katsuya to heal her and the other Gokage. Sakura was doing so when she was using Katsuyu Daibunretsu, Okasho, and so on.



Infuin: Kai is the release of the seal. Its name may only have been used in its debut in Part I, but a hand seal is still required to release the seal, indicating the technique's use. And anyway, Tsunade and Sakura have shown to be able to release their seal without using Sozou Saisei - using the released chakra to summon Katsuyu, and then pour their chakra into her, for instance [1].

There is some connection between the Byakugou seal and Katsuyu, but unless it has been released the chakra inside of it can't be dispensed. The Remote Healing technique should be powered by the user's base chakra, but just what the connection is between Katsuyu and the seal was something that was never fully explained.



> Shit was really inconsistent, but saying meh power inflation is silly when we have a _rational_ explanation via the stated and shown mechanics of Byakugo.



I just disagree with your rational explanation, thats all.​​


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So your take is that Tsunade never drew on Byakugo Chakra in Base, and only when Creation Rebirth: Byakugo (CRB) was activated?


In Tsunade's case yes, because she started using Byakugo at the same time she started using Byakugo Sousou Saisei, as before that moment she was playing a purely support role, hanging back and utilizing her regular medical ninjutsu. Tsunade however can draw on the Byakugo chakra w/o using Byakugo Sousou Saisei, it's just that she never did in her battle with Madara until she uses BSS.



> So why is the "one's power rises" line in the entry for the healing technique and not an entry just regarding the Byakugo no In? Sakura's rise in power had nothing to do with CRB, because the spike appeared to occur the moment the Byakugo diamond itself was formed.


Byakugo Sousou Saisei's entry also talks about the mechanics of just Byakugo no In, which can also be used w/o utilizing Byakugo Sousou Saisei. So I think Kishimoto just put all of that stuff in the Byakugo Sousou Saisei entry to save time and space in DB IV, instead of writing individual entries for Byakugo no In and Byakugo Sousou Saisei.


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> That isn't true. Ei using almost every muscle in his body for a power-bomb was able to create a crater only half the size of the one Part I Tsunade made with a single drop kick [1] [2].​



Ei's crater looks bigger/deeper than Tsunade's heel drop crater to me.



> Using regular punches, kicks etc the damage the Raikage inflicts is much less significant. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]


I don't see how. Ei's attacks were breaking Zabuza's Sword and Sasuke's Rib-Cage Susano'o. That's a-lot more impressive than the craters Tsunade was creating and unless Orochimaru's face > Rib-Cage-Susano'o or Zabuza's sword in durability, Tsunade's blow should have gone clean through Orochimaru's head if her strike was really stronger than Ei's. 



> You should also bare in mind that Tsunade may not always be using chakra enhanced strength. It stands to reason that sometimes she is just using her base strength. This would explain why her Tsūtenkyaku is so destructive, while some of her other attacks, like this one or these ones, are not.


Sure you can play the card that maybe Tsunade never used chakra enhanced strength in all these different examples, but that argument looses credibility in my eyes when none of Tsunade's non-Byakugo displays come even remotely close to her displays w/ Byakugo, the DB being stating that Byakugo increases the users power, and us having an extremely blatant example of it doing just that in Sakura's case. Basically it just comes off to me as if your arguing from a much less probable and straight forward stance, that really does not have any evidence to support that Tsunade can accomplish the Madara duel feats w/o Byakugo or that Byakugo wasn't enhancing her.



> Madara wasn't hit directly by Ei's blow, he blocked, and unless Ei is moving at full speed, which by his own admission he wasn't, his strikes are never that destructive anyway.


If the contrast between the two blows wasn't so drastically different, I'd be able to get behind these things being the cause for the difference, but the difference between the damage done was so vast it's ridiculous. Orochimaru had some of his face messed up by non-Byakugo Tsunade's attack, while Madara had his entire body blown through like a hot knife through butter.



> I would definitely argue that Base Madara's durability is below Orochimaru's, given that the latter took part of a KN4 bijuu-dama, repeated chakra roars and made contact with his burning chakra shroud without sustaining much/any damage - something which had Sakura crippled for days afterwards. Blunt force trauma does almost nothing to Orochimaru, but the same cannot be said of Madara.


That's regeneration feats, not durability feats. Durability wise, KN1-Naruto did more damage to Orochimaru than Tsunade did and KN3 casually was tearing Orochimaru's body apart. He also felt the need to block attacks like Enma staff, which in no way measure up to the damage of Ei's strikes. But the bottom line is Ei even w/ a casual strike snapped Zabuza's thick iron sword in half while at the same time liquifying Suigetsu arms and blew through Juugo's CS2 arm shield making a gaping hole in Juugo's chest. I see absolutely no durability feats that would place Orochimaru as vastly more durable than a super thick sword or Juugo's CS2 Shield + CS2 durability.



> Sakura had been holding back for 3 years. Her seal was not released, and so it could not possibly have increased her power. There is a reason that the Infūin: Kai exists as a technique. Storing up chakra inside her seal seemed to have restricted the chakra/chakra control she could put behind her strikes, which is why once she stopped storing chakra up, the power behind her strikes increased exponentially. It wasn't the seal itself increasing her strength, because the chakra inside it hadn't been released.


Again that is false, the chakra inside the seal can be released w/o the seal markings appearing, and that is exactly what Sakura did. Unless your going to argue that Sakura's base Okasho is strong enough to beat down Kaguya.



> But the context of that setting is that Tsunade was able to punch his Susano'o because she had released a technique which allowed her do so. I don't think its clear either, because no one reading that chapter immediately reached the conclusion that Byakugou is what powered her strike.


I'm not talking about the context of the manga, i'm talking about the context of the DB. The scene in the DB references when talking about Tsunade's power rising w/ usage of Byakugo is a strength feat. Additionally look at the way he DB phrases the statement, "Wounds completely recover, while at the same time ones own power rises*" The DB phrases it as if two separate functions of Byakugo, wounds are regenerated and the user's power rises. If what your saying was true, it would be phrased as the users power rises due to wounds being regenerated. And not to come off as pulling rank or something, but I actually read the raw-Japanese and that's what my interpretation is based on, while your effectively arguing a different interpretation based on a translation I myself did. Also putting even myself aside, at least one other translator (though I believe I asked others at the time) agreed with how I interpreted the text.

It just again seems like your arguing from the vastly less likely standpoint to me.



> Sozou Saisei is regeneration, she did use Infuin: Kai to release her chakra and then channel it into Katsuyu, but didn't regenerate the villagers with it.


Infuin Kai is something that got retcon'd into Byakugo no In. So I think part of the problem here is that your arguing from the standpoint of things that have since been retcon'd.



> Infuin: Kai is the release of the seal. Its name may only have been used in its debut in Part I, but a hand seal is still required to release the seal, indicating the technique's use


Again your using retcon'd material. It is blatantly display that chakra can be drawn from Byakugo no In, while it's still in it's diamond form. Tsunade did so to keep herself and the Gokage alive, and Katsuya comments on such. 

katsu: I work together with tusnade-sama?s strength of hundred power and use its chakra?\\

Shizune also comments on Sakura doing such here:
sever the fucking Juubi's tails

In both case Tsunade and Sakura's seals were only in the Diamond form yet they were able to draw chakra out of it.



> nd anyway, Tsunade and Sakura have shown to be able to release their seal without using Sozou Saisei - using the released chakra to summon Katsuyu, and then pour their chakra into her, for instance


That's because again they were using Sousou Saisei in conjunction with Diaburetsu, to combat the Shinju's effects.​


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## FlamingRain (Mar 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The thing is Tsunade and Sakura's speed also increase due to Byakugo, and we've seen many times that vitalizing the body with chakra increases ones physical capabilities.



I don't recall either of them doing anything upon releasing Byakugō that they shouldn't have been able to to in base (Tsunade's most impressive reaction feat was performed while she was in base), but even if they did that's to be expected. Medics rely especially heavily on Chakra-intensive movements; give them more Chakra and they can rely on it even more.

However, they're just that- _Chakra-intensive_, they are Shunshin-esque maneuvers. Chakra-intensive speeds =/= physical speeds. That's why Sakura could blitz Ino despite the 1.5 tier difference in physical speed, and why Tsunade could pull off those stunts she did in Part 1.



> Finally I may be remembering this wrong, but I think that the Japanese word for power there suggest physical power, which is why I thought it refers to physicality in the first place, but again I could be not remembering it correctly.



Now _*this*_ is what I was wondering about when I asked the question.

But didn't Tsunade use the characters for physical power when giving that Will of Fire speech to Madara, too, even though she just seemed to mean general threat level?

I just don't think we're necessarily looking at a retcon here.



> That is an entry for Infuin Kai from DB 2. Shit has been retecon'd since then into Byakugo, which has it's own rules, which are the ones I stated.



The Infūin has been _renamed_ Byakugō no In, but the mechanics of it don't appear to be any different, hence Tsunade still using Infūin: Kai prior to utilizing Sōzō Saisei after Mabui's Tensō no Jutsu _(1)_, activating Sōzō Saisei — Byakugō no Jutsu against Madara _(2)_, and using the combined summoning technique to bring out 10% of Katsuyu _(3)_. Sakura also had to use the Infūin: Kai before activating Sōzō Saisei — Byakugō no Jutsu against Madara _(4)_.

Those markings are curvilinear, not straight, so they're obviously not just the regeneration technique markings yet to finish extending. Katsuyu being able to draw on the seal without the markings being released doesn't contradict any of that, because in her unique case the seal is serving as a two-way telepathic link across which the Chakra Transfer technique can be performed.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Ei's crater looks bigger/deeper than Tsunade's heel drop crater to me.



It might be slightly deeper, but Tsunade's certainly trumps it in range. 




> I don't see how. Ei's attacks were breaking Zabuza's Sword



An iron blade that had already been _badly cracked_ by Killer Bee. 



> and Sasuke's Rib-Cage Susano'o.



Hardly an incredibly strong defence to begin with. 



> That's a-lot more impressive than the craters Tsunade was creating



Tsunade never got the opportunity to punch anything with her herculean strength other than rocks. However, the damage she inflicted to the earth was easily greater than that which Ei's strikes inflicted to it. 



> and unless Orochimaru's face > Rib-Cage-Susano'o or Zabuza's sword in durability, Tsunade's blow should have gone clean through Orochimaru's head if her strike was really stronger than Ei's.



So then, Orochimaru's head, and body in general, is more durable than Zabuza's half-broken sword and the first stages of Sasuke's rib-cage Susano'o.



> Sure you can play the card that maybe Tsunade never used chakra enhanced strength in all these different examples, but that argument looses credibility in my eyes when none of Tsunade's non-Byakugo displays come even remotely close to her displays w/ Byakugo, the DB being stating that Byakugo increases the users power, and us having an extremely blatant example of it doing just that in Sakura's case. Basically it just comes off to me as if your arguing from a much less probable and straight forward stance, that really does not have any evidence to support that Tsunade can accomplish the Madara duel feats w/o Byakugo or that Byakugo wasn't enhancing her.



I think its incredibly probable that Tsunade wasn't using chakra enhanced strength all the time because, even whenever she wasn't using Byakugou, the power behind her strikes varied greatly in strength. In Part I Tsunade was never given the opportunity to punch anything other than rocks and debris, so you aren't really in a position to compare her performances. The only time this isn't the case is when she punches Orochimaru, but yet she flat out KOs him, to the point that he later has to retreat from the battlefield. This is the same man that eats parts of KN4's bijuu-dama and chakra roars without being phased. 



> If the contrast between the two blows wasn't so drastically different, I'd be able to get behind these things being the cause for the difference, but the difference between the damage done was so vast it's ridiculous. Orochimaru had some of his face messed up by non-Byakugo Tsunade's attack, while Madara had his entire body blown through like a hot knife through butter.



I can agree that it is possible, and likely that the strike Tsunade threw at Madara was stronger than the one she threw at Orochimaru. However, I don't put that solely down to Byakugou _massively_ powering her up, I put it down to the fact that she had the means to put more chakra behind her punch. By the time she punched Orochimaru in the Sannin battle she was already low on chakra. Whereas Byakugou gave her a huge release of chakra so that she wouldn't get exhausted at the same rate. Byakugou was partly to do with why the punch was so strong, but does that mean I believe she can concentrate limitless amounts of chakra to her fists to the point that she gets an uber power-up? No. I believe Tsunade's Part I Tsūtenkyaku would have made a hole in Madara just as her punch in Part II did, because she wasn't exhausted at that point.



> That's regeneration feats, not durability feats. Durability wise, KN1-Naruto did more damage to Orochimaru than Tsunade did and KN3 casually was tearing Orochimaru's body apart.



I didn't see any evidence of Orochimaru regenerating when he was hit by the bijuu-dama, or chakra roar. He just flat out took the attacks. KN1 hit Orochimaru with a slashing attack that would naturally rip more flesh off his face than blunt force one, but it failed to inflict any damage to the body underneath, despite the fact that the attack was a powerful one that had sent the Sannin flying 100 meters across the battlefield. Tsunade punched Orochimaru so hard that he fell temporarily unconscious and then had to flee the battlefield, and it would have inflicted even more damage had Manda's soft body not broken his fall. There is a definite difference in strength.



> He also felt the need to block attacks like Enma staff, which in no way measure up to the damage of Ei's strikes.



That's a poor argument, why would Orochimaru _not_ have tried to block? Even the Sandaime Raikage tries to dodge or block attacks, even though he's so durable that half the attacks don't phase him anyway. 



> But the bottom line is Ei even w/ a casual strike snapped Zabuza's thick iron sword in half while at the same time liquifying Suigetsu arms



*Half-broken iron sword. And since Suigetsu's arms are made of water and, to my memory, don't possess any extraordinary durability, I don't think liquefying them is the most incredible of strength feats, certainly not compared to a woman who was making giant earth fissures with her index finger.



> and blew through Juugo's CS2 arm shield making a gaping hole in Juugo's chest. I see absolutely no durability feats that would place Orochimaru as vastly more durable than a super thick sword or Juugo's CS2 Shield + CS2 durability.



How durable is Juugo in CS2? I could be wrong, but I don't really remember seeing him tank anything outstandingly strong.



> Again that is false, the chakra inside the seal can be released w/o the seal markings appearing, and that is exactly what Sakura did. Unless your going to argue that Sakura's base Okasho is strong enough to beat down Kaguya.



Sakura's base Okasho is what she used to blow up the Juublings, which apparently was what she used to beat down Kaguya. Her power is only restricted when she's storing chakra for her seal and before it is formed on her forehead. If Sakura/Tsunade could release chakra from their seal without ever opening it, we'd never have seen the markings spread across their body, ever. Nor would Infuin: Kai exist as a technique. 



> I'm not talking about the context of the manga, i'm talking about the context of the DB. The scene in the DB references when talking about Tsunade's power rising w/ usage of Byakugo is a strength feat. Additionally look at the way he DB phrases the statement, "Wounds completely recover, while at the same time ones own power rises*" The DB phrases it as if two separate functions of Byakugo, wounds are regenerated and the user's power rises. If what your saying was true, it would be phrased as the users power rises due to wounds being regenerated. And not to come off as pulling rank or something, but I actually read the raw-Japanese and that's what my interpretation is based on, while your effectively arguing a different interpretation based on a translation I myself did. Also putting even myself aside, at least one other translator (though I believe I asked others at the time) agreed with how I interpreted the text.



Your entire argument here is based around the fact that the databook is taking a picture _from the manga_ to make a point. If you observe the context in the manga, you would be able to gauge that my point has merit. I will take your word for it on the translation, but I still maintain that the DB is not referring to physical strength. I realise that the DB uses power in place of physical strength sometimes, but for aforementioned reasons I don't think that is the case in this instance. Byakugou does give boosts to stamina and might give a possible speed boost if Sakura's statement is anything to go by, but I don't think it gives much of a boost to strength.



> It just again seems like your arguing from the vastly less likely standpoint to me.



I'm sorry you feel that way.



> Infuin Kai is something that got retcon'd into Byakugo no In. So I think part of the problem here is that your arguing from the standpoint of things that have since been retcon'd.
> 
> Again your using retcon'd material. It is blatantly display that chakra can be drawn from Byakugo no In, while it's still in it's diamond form. Tsunade did so to keep herself and the Gokage alive, and Katsuya comments on such.
> 
> katsu: I work together with tusnade-sama’s strength of hundred power and use its chakra…\\



Infuin: Kai is used to release the Byakugou no In. I'm not sure how that is a retcon. Since their seals weren't released when they were channelling chakra to Katsuyu, I'm pretty sure both Sakura and Tsunade were using their base chakra reserves to heal the Gokage/alliance. Again, the link between Katsuyu and Byakugou was not explained, but since the seal hadn't been opened its chakra could not possibly have been transferred. Perhaps the seal may have been used as a relay device of some kind to transmit their base chakra to Katsuyu. Kind of like a wireless internet router, but with chakra.



> Shizune also comments on Sakura doing such here:
> Link removed
> 
> In both case Tsunade and Sakura's seals were only in the Diamond form yet they were able to draw chakra out of it.



I maintain that they used their seal to somehow transfer their base chakra to Katsuyu. That way Katsuyu is still working in tandem with the seal, but not using the chakra inside of it. It doesn't make sense otherwise.



> That's because again they were using Sousou Saisei in conjunction with Diaburetsu, to combat the Shinju's effects.



Again, Sozou Saisei is a regeneration technique that cannot/does not get used on other people because it shortens one's lifespan. They just transferred chakra, they did not use a technique.​​


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> It might be slightly deeper, but Tsunade's certainly trumps it in range.


Sorry to say, but Ei's crater looks about the same size as Tsunade's, but a-lot deeper to me.



> An iron blade that had already been badly cracked by Killer Bee.


Fair enough, though I imagine even cracked Zabuza's sword is more durable than Orochimaru's face.



> Hardly an incredibly strong defence to begin with.


Stronger than Orochimaru's face and rocks 



> Tsunade never got the opportunity to punch anything with her herculean strength other than rocks


She punched Orochimaru's face.



> owever, the damage she inflicted to the earth was easily greater than that which Ei's strikes inflicted to it.


Ei's attacks never made solid contact with the ground, they were always intercepted by solid defenses in route to the ground.



> So then, Orochimaru's head, and body in general, is more durable than Zabuza's half-broken sword and the first stages of Sasuke's rib-cage Susano'o.


Orochimaru's body/head does not have any durability feats that places him even on par with those things, let alone above them.



> I think its incredibly probable that Tsunade wasn't using chakra enhanced strength all the time because, even whenever she wasn't using Byakugou, the power behind her strikes varied greatly in strength. In Part I Tsunade was never given the opportunity to punch anything other than rocks and debris, so you aren't really in a position to compare her performances. The only time this isn't the case is when she punches Orochimaru, but yet she flat out KOs him, to the point that he later has to retreat from the battlefield.


Godaime the problem isn't that maybe Tsunade wasn't using chakra enhanced strength in some of these examples. The problem is you have no examples of feats from Non-Byakugo Tsunade that measure up to her feats in the Madara duel. So your basically telling me to disregard the raw-text of DBIV, the context of DBIV, and the examples Sakura provides us just because you _believe_ Base-Tsunade can do this.



> I can agree that it is possible, and likely that the strike Tsunade threw at Madara was stronger than the one she threw at Orochimaru. However, I don't put that solely down to Byakugou massively powering her up, I put it down to the fact that she had the means to put more chakra behind her punch. By the time she punched Orochimaru in the Sannin battle she was already low on chakra. Whereas Byakugou gave her a huge release of chakra so that she wouldn't get exhausted at the same rate. Byakugou was partly to do with why the punch was so strong, but does that mean I believe she can concentrate limitless amounts of chakra to her fists to the point that she gets an uber power-up? No. I believe Tsunade's Part I Tsūtenkyaku would have made a hole in Madara just as her punch in Part II did, because she wasn't exhausted at that point.


My problem with this interpretation, is that it seems a bit self serving. Your not just arbitrarily determining a cut off for the amount of chakra Tsunade can channel to her fists, which would already be a weak premise imo, but your deciding the cut off is right in that sweet spot where Tsunade despite having mountains more chakra aviable to her with Byakugo couldn't increase her striking out put at all (or at least that much), but at the same time she can channel a large enough amount of chakra to her fist, where she can get drastically different performance out of her strikes depending on her base chakra supply. Without any evidence of that line existing there, you must admit this really does seem self serving to your premise, i mean come on.

Additionally, there are things that outright contradict this premise as well. Sakura's performance against Kaguya for one and secondly the massive difference in the impact of her Okasho versus Tsunade's leg drop. Now you could say Sakura is simply better at chakra control than Tsunade so she can channel more chakra to her fist, and thus utilize more of her Byakugo chakra to enhance her strikes, but Sakura wouldn't have to be just slightly better, but eons above Tsunade. And I don't see any implication of such in the manga, in-fact Hashirama's statement directly subverts this as it implies Tsunade should also be capable of similar striking power to Sakura. Considering Tsunade own showing doesn't even remotely coming close, the only plausible explanation would be the difference in quantity of chakra stored in each's seals at the time, not chakra control or physical strength. 

Thirdly the DB's entry for Okasho also doesn't jive well with the interpretation that there is a cap, as it talks about the Jutsu's striking force leveling up depending on the amount of chakra placed into the technique. That would indicate the technique can indeed scale infinitely, and it simply comes down to the user's own chakra supply and chakra control, as to how much they can scale the technique. I really don't think Tsunade the greatest (or at least one of the greatest) chakra control user in the manga is going to have issues scaling this technique up when she has more chakra at her disposal or at the very least, again not falling vastly far behind Sakura.



> I didn't see any evidence of Orochimaru regenerating when he was hit by the bijuu-dama


He wasn't hit by Bijuudama, he blocked it w/ Roshomon, and was simply hit by the shockwave. Likewise he was hit by the shockwave of chakra roar. Shockwaves don't do external damage, they'd do internal damage, which Orochimaru would regenerate from. 



> KN1 hit Orochimaru with a slashing attack that would naturally rip more flesh off his face than blunt force one, but it failed to inflict any damage to the body underneath, despite the fact that the attack was a powerful one that had sent the Sannin flying 100 meters across the battlefield.


On the flip side of that, he had 100m to recover from the attack.



> . Tsunade punched Orochimaru so hard that he fell temporarily unconscious and then had to flee the battlefield, and it would have inflicted even more damage had Manda's soft body not broken his fall. There is a definite difference in strength.


Maybe Tsunade's punch is stronger than KN1's attack, but it's certainly beneath KN3, which was just casually tearing Orochimaru's body apart


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2015)

> That's a poor argument, why would Orochimaru not have tried to block? Even the Sandaime Raikage tries to dodge or block attacks, even though he's so durable that half the attacks don't phase him anyway.


Because it's IC for Orochimaru to fuck around and be arrogant taking attacks he could have otherwise evaded. And Sandaime Raikage just plowed through attacks, so i'm not sure what your talking about there. Thee only time we saw him bother to evade was when Naruto busted out an all powerful Fuuton attack he'd never seen before.



> *Half-broken iron sword. And since Suigetsu's arms are made of water and, to my memory, don't possess any extraordinary durability, I don't think liquefying them is the most incredible of strength feats, certainly not compared to a woman who was making giant earth fissures with her index finger.


Considering B's attacks didn't liquify Suigetsu arms, it's a better feat than your making it out to be.



> How durable is Juugo in CS2? I could be wrong, but I don't really remember seeing him tank anything outstandingly strong.


Why do we even need feats. We know CS2 is an act of Senjutsu which is shown to drastically increase the bodies durability, Juugo is more connected to that power than anyone besides outright Sages. Here he was in his strongest form and was also putting up a shield made of solid CS2 flesh, similar CS2 shields that probably had a lesser quantity of Senjutsu than Juugo, like Sasuke's CS2 wing have taken the brunt of an attack like a C2 Missile, but Ei's attack went through Juugo's Shield and than his body like nothing. 



> Sakura's base Okasho is what she used to blow up the Juublings, which apparently was what she used to beat down Kaguya. Her power is only restricted when she's storing chakra for her seal and before it is formed on her forehead. If Sakura/Tsunade could release chakra from their seal without ever opening it, we'd never have seen the markings spread across their body, ever. Nor would Infuin: Kai exist as a technique.


And the manga blatantly states otherwise.



> Your entire argument here is based around the fact that the databook is taking a picture from the manga to make a point. If you observe the context in the manga, you would be able to gauge that my point has merit. I will take your word for it on the translation, but I still maintain that the DB is not referring to physical strength. I realise that the DB uses power in place of physical strength sometimes, but for aforementioned reasons I don't think that is the case in this instance.


I don't know what to say to this man. You know i've read the manga and i'm the one who actually translated the DB, so i'm well aware of the context, but I simply do not think your stance has merit. If the DB simply wanted to reflect that being able to regenerate increases Tsunade's power, in the sense your talking about, there are ample scenes from the manga that illustrate that much more clearly, than a straight forward scene of Tsunade punch Madara.



> Byakugou does give boosts to stamina and might give a possible speed boost if Sakura's statement is anything to go by, but I don't think it gives much of a boost to strength.


Why would it give a speed boost and not a strength boost? Vitalizing ones body with higher quantities of chakra has time and time again been shown to boost someone's physical capabilities, which would explain the speed boost that both Tsunade and Sakura illustrated and also increased strength. That and the chakra from the Byakugo seal being able to fuel techniques that increase striking power like Okahsou and Shunshin.



> Infuin: Kai is used to release the Byakugou no In. I'm not sure how that is a retcon


No Infuin Kai is used to release the Yin Seal, not Byakugo no In:




> . Since their seals weren't released when they were channelling chakra to Katsuyu, I'm pretty sure both Sakura and Tsunade were using their base chakra reserves to heal the Gokage/alliance. Again, the link between Katsuyu and Byakugou was not explained, but since the seal hadn't been opened its chakra could not possibly have been transferred. Perhaps the seal may have been used as a relay device of some kind to transmit their base chakra to Katsuyu. Kind of like a wireless internet router, but with chakra.


I just showed you where the exact opposite was stated.



> I maintain that they used their seal to somehow transfer their base chakra to Katsuyu. That way Katsuyu is still working in tandem with the seal, but not using the chakra inside of it.


I fail to see the difference. If Sakura and Tsunade are channeling base chakra into the Byakugo no In and than release that chakra to Katsuya, that still illustrates that they can release chakra from the Byakugo no In, while in Diamond form. 

With that said, I have to say that the reasoning that they are channeling base chakra to transfer through the seal is extremely convoluted, in comparison to they are just utilizing the Byakugo no In's stored chakra, which is a-lot more straight forward.



> It doesn't make sense otherwise.


Actually it makes thee most and least convoluted sense. The only issue you seem to be having is that your demanding Byakugo no In's mechanics be the same as the retecon'd or totally different Yin-Seal, when in-fact there would be no point to the retecon or Kishi introducing a new Jutsu if the mechanics were not in-fact different in the first place.

Probably Yin-Seal can only be used to power a single Jutsu, so it's entire contents are released at one time for Sousou Saisei, while Byakugo no In is more of an all purpose seal that can be drawn on freely for all different jutsu and actions.



> Again, Sozou Saisei is a regeneration technique that cannot/does not get used on other people because it shortens one's lifespan. They just transferred chakra, they did not use a technique.


Excuse me but where was it stated that Sousou Saisei can't be used on other people? Sakura in-fact does just that to Obito. And yeah it would shorten their life span, but if the choice is shorten ones life span or die right there, probably going to use Sou Saisei to save them.


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## Rocky (Mar 2, 2015)

Turrin said:
			
		

> No Infuin Kai is used to release the Yin Seal, not Byakugo no In:



...both of these are the diamond on Tsunade's forehead.


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2015)

^ And if it's not a retcon they are both different seals. The mark left by the Hakke Fuuin and Shiki Fuuin looks the same, but they are totally different jutsu w/ different mechanics. Though I personally feel it is a retcon.


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## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

godaime is right byakuyo doesnt increase ones strength 

after releasing the seal on her head she has all her chakra available for attack. which makes her chakra enhanced punches stronger thats about it. 

byakuyo is a healing technique, and superior to the sozo one she used in part 1. 

as madara decribed it. its healing without the need of seals

@turrin i know u translated the DB. Does it clearly say her strength is increased because of releasing the seal

also if that were the case woudlnt that just mean she doesnt get any stronger but in fact has access to all her chakra. 

the byakuyo no jutsu as stated in the manga is a healing tech


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## Thunder (Mar 5, 2015)

Turrin, stop it. You're starting to convince me Tsunade > Jiraiya.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 5, 2015)

Et tu, Thunder?


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## Thunder (Mar 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Et tu, Thunder?



HERE


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## Rocky (Mar 5, 2015)

Eh, I still think Jiraiya beats Tsunade and loses to Orochimaru.

Unless she's stored up years upon years worth of chakra.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 5, 2015)

If Thunder hadn't posted in this thread, I would have totally forgotten I'd posted in it. 



Turrin said:


> Sorry to say, but Ei's crater looks about the same size as Tsunade's, but a-lot deeper to me.



We'll have to agree to disagree then ..though I maintain that Tsunade's is noticeably bigger.



> Fair enough, though I imagine even cracked Zabuza's sword is more durable than Orochimaru's face.



I doubt it, not as far as blunt force trauma is concerned, at least.



> She punched Orochimaru's face.



Which I addressed.



> Ei's attacks never made solid contact with the ground, they were always intercepted by solid defenses in route to the ground.



He punched holes in walls and desks that were not intercepted by anything, and yet they were still smaller.



> Orochimaru's body/head does not have any durability feats that places him even on par with those things, let alone above them.



He took a direct hit from Tsunade's raw strength and he barely felt it [1]. Even her raw strength is enough to carve craters in the ground and blow up portions of walls, so that's definitely an impressive feat of durability. 



> Godaime the problem isn't that maybe Tsunade wasn't using chakra enhanced strength in some of these examples. The problem is you have no examples of feats from Non-Byakugo Tsunade that measure up to her feats in the Madara duel. So your basically telling me to disregard the raw-text of DBIV, the context of DBIV, and the examples Sakura provides us just because you _believe_ Base-Tsunade can do this.



My problem is that Tsunade's part I performances, in the instances where she did in fact use chakra enhanced strength, were enough to convince me that she's strong enough to accomplish her Part II feats. Byakugou's activation didn't improve my thoughts on her super strength. An attack with as much power behind it as Tsūtenkyaku was always going to inflict heavy damage on a defense like Rib-cage Susano'o. Your problem with this is that you don't believe Part I Tsunade was any physically stronger than Ei. I have tried to refute this but to no avail, because you still think _this_, _this_ and _this_ is greater than _this_ or _this_. Byakugou can't have amped up her strength much because she appeared to already be capable of those kind of feats without it.



> My problem with this interpretation, is that it seems a bit self serving. Your not just arbitrarily determining a cut off for the amount of chakra Tsunade can channel to her fists, which would already be a weak premise imo, but your deciding the cut off is right in that sweet spot where Tsunade despite having mountains more chakra aviable to her with Byakugo couldn't increase her striking out put at all (or at least that much), but at the same time she can channel a large enough amount of chakra to her fist, where she can get drastically different performance out of her strikes depending on her base chakra supply. Without any evidence of that line existing there, you must admit this really does seem self serving to your premise, i mean come on.



I should elaborate, then. Focusing chakra into limbs enhances their striking strength, but since there is more focus on chakra precision than there is on chakra quantity, I do not think the chakra that Tsunade/Sakura channel behind their strikes massively augments their damage output. If they were to refine their chakra control to an even higher level, then the damage output might increase more drastically, but quantity should not make a huge difference. Obviously there is a limit, where putting in a bit more chakra might help, but as you have correctly pointed out, this limit is difficult to gauge. The only thing I can decisively conclude is that precision > chakra quantity, which is why chakra enhanced strength is an application of medical ninjutsu, where chakra control comes first, and chakra quantity second, even if the latter does contribute to some extent.



> Additionally, there are things that outright contradict this premise as well. Sakura's performance against Kaguya for one and secondly the massive difference in the impact of her Okasho versus Tsunade's leg drop. Now you could say Sakura is simply better at chakra control than Tsunade so she can channel more chakra to her fist, and thus utilize more of her Byakugo chakra to enhance her strikes, but Sakura wouldn't have to be just slightly better, but eons above Tsunade. And I don't see any implication of such in the manga, in-fact Hashirama's statement directly subverts this as it implies Tsunade should also be capable of similar striking power to Sakura. Considering Tsunade own showing doesn't even remotely coming close, the only plausible explanation would be the difference in quantity of chakra stored in each's seals at the time, not chakra control or physical strength.



I put this down to a number of factors. Yes, to the fact that Sakura's chakra control could be higher than Tsunade's, but also to the fact that Sakura had more momentum behind her blow than Tsunade did. Maybe she used more chakra in her punch too, that could have been part of it. But it wasn't the sole reason why her strike was more powerful.



> Thirdly the DB's entry for Okasho also doesn't jive well with the interpretation that there is a cap, as it talks about the Jutsu's striking force leveling up depending on the amount of chakra placed into the technique. That would indicate the technique can indeed scale infinitely, and it simply comes down to the user's own chakra supply and chakra control, as to how much they can scale the technique. I really don't think Tsunade the greatest (or at least one of the greatest) chakra control user in the manga is going to have issues scaling this technique up when she has more chakra at her disposal or at the very least, again not falling vastly far behind Sakura.



The problem is that collecting huge amounts of chakra into a limb is not going to be precise chakra control, if we are to assume that precise chakra control means _using less chakra for your techniques and having the same or better effects_. 



> He wasn't hit by Bijuudama, he blocked it w/ Roshomon, and was simply hit by the shockwave. Likewise he was hit by the shockwave of chakra roar. Shockwaves don't do external damage, they'd do internal damage, which Orochimaru would regenerate from.



It had enough physical power to flip him upside down and bury his head into the ground. Additionally, it tore through all three Rashomon gates - there wasn't even one still standing. That would suggest that at least part of the bijuu-dama was not blocked, because otherwise it wouldn't have broken through all three of the gates.




> On the flip side of that, he had 100m to recover from the attack.



Distance isn't necessarily time. He covered that distance very quickly somehow, so he didn't have long to recover at all, if he even needed to.



> Maybe Tsunade's punch is stronger than KN1's attack, but it's certainly beneath KN3, which was just casually tearing Orochimaru's body apart



KN3's attacks slashed. Orochimaru seems more tolerant of blunt force trauma than of being slashed/stabbed. Though, I could agree that a punch from KN3 would have been at least as powerful as Tsunade's punch in that instance.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Because it's IC for Orochimaru to fuck around and be arrogant taking attacks he could have otherwise evaded. And Sandaime Raikage just plowed through attacks, so i'm not sure what your talking about there. Thee only time we saw him bother to evade was when Naruto busted out an all powerful Fuuton attack he'd never seen before.



I don't agree with that. Any time Orochimaru has been hit its because he hasn't been fast or skilled enough to dodge. He repeatedly makes efforts to run away or defend himself when he feels threatened. 

In regards to the Sandaime Raikage, he dodged the Rasenshuriken because he _could_. Although, the Sandaime might have been a bad example to use, because in review he doesn't actually get that much screen time, and mostly throws attacks rather than tanks them. Tsunade is actually an excellent example to use. She can survive almost any injury with regeneration, but is still trained in evasion, and usually attempts to dodge attacks before she relies on tanking them, the only real exception being when its physically impossible for her to dodge.



> Considering B's attacks didn't liquify Suigetsu arms, it's a better feat than your making it out to be.



Bee didn't smash Suigetsu into the ground with a vertical chop. There was nowhere near as much pressure on his arms whenever Bee attacked him because of the nature of his attack. When Bee punches Suigetsu directly, he _does get liquified_. Heck, Juugo and Karin have both liquified Suigetsu's body before by striking him.



> Why do we even need feats. We know CS2 is an act of Senjutsu which is shown to drastically increase the bodies durability, Juugo is more connected to that power than anyone besides outright Sages. Here he was in his strongest form and was also putting up a shield made of solid CS2 flesh, similar CS2 shields that probably had a lesser quantity of Senjutsu than Juugo, like Sasuke's CS2 wing have taken the brunt of an attack like a C2 Missile, but Ei's attack went through Juugo's Shield and than his body like nothing.



We need feats because we're trying to quantify how durable Juugo was in relation to Ei's strike. I have absolutely no doubt that CS2 Juugo was more durable than he was before hand, but I'll be damned if he was as durable as SM Naruto or SM Madara, who despite not being as " connected " to Sage energy as Juugo might have been, were still incredibly durable and resilient to damage. Other shinobi who were directly influenced by Juugo's Sage energy and could access the CS2 form were _easily wounded_ by Sasuke and Suigetsu [1]. Then there's the Sound 4, who weren't extraordinarily durable either. 

Of course, I'd like to mention that even if you did think that Juugo was _incredibly_ durable, he still tries to protect himself with a shield. This lends to my previous point about durable characters still attempting to defend themselves.



> And the manga blatantly states otherwise.



The manga doesn't bluntly state anything, hence this discussion. I've said my piece in regards to this point though, so I'll just move on since you aren't going to change your stance..



> I don't know what to say to this man. You know i've read the manga and i'm the one who actually translated the DB, so i'm well aware of the context, but I simply do not think your stance has merit. If the DB simply wanted to reflect that being able to regenerate increases Tsunade's power, in the sense your talking about, there are ample scenes from the manga that illustrate that much more clearly, than a straight forward scene of Tsunade punch Madara.



Do you happen to have a scan of the page/link to a scan?



> Why would it give a speed boost and not a strength boost? Vitalizing ones body with higher quantities of chakra has time and time again been shown to boost someone's physical capabilities, which would explain the speed boost that both Tsunade and Sakura illustrated and also increased strength. That and the chakra from the Byakugo seal being able to fuel techniques that increase striking power like Okahsou and Shunshin.



It could give a speed boost because Sakura and Tsunade can potentially employ the chakra in such a way that it could allow them to move faster. It could not give a massive strength boost because there is no way that they can manipulate so much chakra in such a way that it would ever increase their strength far beyond its usual limitations. Chakra _control_ is what ultimately augments their strength, not _quantity_. Focusing chakra to a specific point and then releasing it is what makes their strength so ferocious, not the sheer volume of chakra they spend doing so. 

High chakra control means that you use less chakra when using techniques, so while person A with average chakra control uses XXX amount of chakra on a jutsu, person B with higher chakra control only uses X amount. Tsunade and Sakura would never use massive amounts of chakra when throwing strikes because it would surely contradict the purpose of having high control over their chakra in the first place. And from my understanding of the technique it could not significantly augment it.



> No Infuin Kai is used to release the Yin Seal, not Byakugo no In:



Either Kishimoto decided to change the name of the seal half way through the Madara fight, or the Byakugou no In is possibly a Yin Seal. That is, the chakra that is stored inside of it is _Yin_ chakra. Either way, they're obviously the same seal, so it is what it is.



> I just showed you where the exact opposite was stated.



You showed me Katsuyu saying that she was going to use chakra from the Byakugou seal, even though it wasn't released. Either its an issue with the translation or its a contradiction, because it makes absolutely no sense in relation to anything else we have been told or shown about the Byakugou no In.



> I fail to see the difference. If Sakura and Tsunade are channeling base chakra into the Byakugo no In and than release that chakra to Katsuya, that still illustrates that they can release chakra from the Byakugo no In, while in Diamond form.



They wouldn't be channelling chakra into the Byakugou no In, though, they seem to be just somehow using it as a means of connecting their base reserves to Katsuyu. If I'm honest, I don't know how this technique works because it was never properly explained. If Katsuyu does draw chakra directly from the Byakugou no In, then I call a contradiction in jutsu mechanics. If they can use chakra from the Byakugou no In without releasing it, then they would never have needed to release it in battle in the first place. 



> With that said, I have to say that the reasoning that they are channeling base chakra to transfer through the seal is extremely convoluted, in comparison to they are just utilizing the Byakugo no In's stored chakra, which is a-lot more straight forward.



I agree with you there, but I am merely trying to make odds of the situation. Your theory is no better than mine really, because it also makes no sense in relation to what we have been shown. I looked at an alternative but even that doesn't make 100% sense. The more we discuss this, the more inclined I am to just chalk it down to an inconsistency in how the seal functions.



> Actually it makes thee most and least convoluted sense. The only issue you seem to be having is that your demanding Byakugo no In's mechanics be the same as the retecon'd or totally different Yin-Seal, when in-fact there would be no point to the retecon or Kishi introducing a new Jutsu if the mechanics were not in-fact different in the first place.



I don't understand how/what leads you to believe the Byakugou no In and Yin Seal are different, though. Infuin: Kai was used twice in the Madara fight - the first time it was stated, the second time it was not  [1] [2] . The first time she uses it, she uses the released chakra for Sozou Saisei. The second time she releases it, this isn't the case. So evidently the Infuin: Kai is not exclusively used for the Sozou Saisei technique.



> Probably Yin-Seal can only be used to power a single Jutsu, so it's entire contents are released at one time for Sousou Saisei, while Byakugo no In is more of an all purpose seal that can be drawn on freely for all different jutsu and actions.



Tsunade never mentions having two seals. No one ever makes reference to her having two seals. If Tsunade or Sakura ever make reference to their forehead marking, they do so in the singular form, not plural. Infuin: Kai is used to release chakra regardless of whether its for one use, or for multiple uses when the markings are fully released. 



> Excuse me but where was it stated that Sousou Saisei can't be used on other people? Sakura in-fact does just that to Obito.



As far as I could tell she was just giving him chakra, I never saw her regenerating his injuries, which is what Sozou Saisei does. 



> And yeah it would shorten their life span, but if the choice is shorten ones life span or die right there, probably going to use Sou Saisei to save them.



If that were the case, I'd question why Tsunade didn't use Sozou Saisei on Naruto _here_, or when his arm was damaged on the cellular level by his Rasenshuriken, or indeed on any number of the villagers maimed by Pein during the invasion.​​


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## Icegaze (Mar 7, 2015)

Yin seal and byakuyo seal are the same. 
kishi retconned the name. not that hard

Also what godaime said is pinpoint. tsunade and sakura strike force is so ferocious due to chakra control. increasing the quantity of said chakra would not increase their striking force beyond its actual limits. 

all releasing their seal does is allow them to fight with more chakra. which is mostly used to regen. that keeps them longer in the fight.


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## UchihaDragonslayer (Mar 15, 2015)

They were originally supposed to be potrayed as equal fighters but Tsunade is behind Sage mode jiraiya and Orochimaru


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## Turrin (Mar 19, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> If Thunder hadn't posted in this thread, I would have totally forgotten I'd posted in it. ​



And if Dragonslayer didn't post, I would have forgotten 



> We'll have to agree to disagree then ..though I maintain that Tsunade's is noticeably bigger.


I'm going to go ahead and trim some fat here. To try and find some middle ground i'll concede the point. So let's assume Base-Tsunade strinking force is better than Ei's. 

However, even with that in mind the issue I have is that Tsunade's feats in the Madara battle aren't marginally better or even a decent amount better than Ei's; they are eons better than Ei's. Ei's blows couldn't do anything to Madara's Susano'o even when it was weakened by Mei's acid [1]. Tsunade on the other hand fodderized Madara's Susano'o. Fuck Tsunade was so far above Ei in the Madara fight that she vastly outperformed Ei, even when Onoki was vastly enhancing his strikes with heavy weighted rock technique [1]. Even in terms of making physical contact with Madara they are worlds apart; Madara can physically guard Ei's blow, while Tsunade's blow implodes him like nothing. So even if Base-Tsunade is somewhat better than Ei, that does not account for vast gulf that was portrayed between them in the Madara battle. 

Now of course this is when you come back and say, "well there is just that big of a difference between Base-Tsunade and Ei", but come on Godaime, let's be honest here, absolutely nowhere in the manga-cannon, before Byakugo's introduction, does Kishimoto ever indicate Tsunade's striking force is eons above someone who is capable of causing massive destruction in the wake of his blows, fodderizing Juugo's CS2 durability and shield, fodderizing Sasuke's Susano'o, overpowering KCM-Naruto who has extremely notable strength feats himself [holding back the Yonbi's choppers for instance], etc... 



> He punched holes in walls and desks that were not intercepted by anything, and yet they were still smaller.


Come on now, let's not use joke scenes as realistic feats.



> My problem is that Tsunade's part I performances, in the instances where she did in fact use chakra enhanced strength, were enough to convince me that she's strong enough to accomplish her Part II feats. Byakugou's activation didn't improve my thoughts on her super strength. An attack with as much power behind it as Tsūtenkyaku was always going to inflict heavy damage on a defense like Rib-cage Susano'o. Your problem with this is that you don't believe Part I Tsunade was any physically stronger than Ei. I have tried to refute this but to no avail, because you still think this, this and this is greater than this or this..


Tsunade's Tsūtenkyaku is extremely impressive and perhaps Tsunade can make a bigger crater than Ei with the force of her blows, hell let's say she can make one twice as big; that still doesn't even begin to touch Tsunade's feats post Byakugo reveal. 



> should elaborate, then. Focusing chakra into limbs enhances their striking strength, but since there is more focus on chakra precision than there is on chakra quantity, I do not think the chakra that Tsunade/Sakura channel behind their strikes massively augments their damage output. If they were to refine their chakra control to an even higher level, then the damage output might increase more drastically, but quantity should not make a huge difference. Obviously there is a limit, where putting in a bit more chakra might help, but as you have correctly pointed out, this limit is difficult to gauge. The only thing I can decisively conclude is that precision > chakra quantity, which is why chakra enhanced strength is an application of medical ninjutsu, where chakra control comes first, and chakra quantity second, even if the latter does contribute to some extent.


The flaw here is that for all of Kishimoto's hyperbola, Okasho is not the epitome of chakra control. If it were it would not be a C-Rank Technique. Rasengan is two difficulty ranks higher than Okasho, due to the difficulty of the chakra control the tech requires, but even than it's not an S-Rank Tech. Tsunade being the greatest [or at least one of the greatest] chakra control wizards in the manga is perfectly capable of casually mastering and performing skills that are S-Rank difficulty in chakra control. So the chakra control Okasho entails is absolutely nothing to someone of Tsunade's caliber. 

I'll grant you that the more chakra collected, increases the difficulty of the chakra control required to execute the technique, which is why Sakura and Tsunade probably can't channel all three-years worth of chakra into their fists at once and unleash a world ending punch. However there is still an absolutely massive gulf between the difficulty that the basic Okasho requires and what Tsunade is actually capable off in terms of chakra control skills. That massive gulf should more than enable Tsunade [and by extension Sakura] to channel a absolute shit ton more chakra into the technique and still exercise the necessary control to perform the technique. Expecting anything less would be a criminal underestimation of Tsunade's chakra control abilities.

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This is of course where you say, "despite Tsunade logically having the chakra control skills to perform this technique with a vastly greater quantity of chakra, the technique still has a arbitrary limit to the amount of chakra that can be utilized". The problem with that is that it goes against the spirit of the DB, which specifically indicates the technique is scaleable. It also directly contradicted by the manga, which shows Sakura's striking force scaling tremendously. Putting aside whether you think Sakura's striking force scaled because she started to dip into Byakugo reserves or because she no longer had to focus on storing chakra, there is an absolutely vast difference between what Sakura's Okasho was capable of at the Start of Part II and the Kaguya merking Okasho Sakura was capable of in the War-Arc. And while it's certainly feasible that Sakura's physical strength increasing is part of the equation, unless Sakura was exposed to gama radiation at some point off panel, that alone can not even come remotely close to explaining the dramatic increase in Okasho strength. Thee only explanation that does, is that Okasho itself scaled dramatically.



> I put this down to a number of factors. Yes, to the fact that Sakura's chakra control could be higher than Tsunade's, but also to the fact that Sakura had more momentum behind her blow than Tsunade did. Maybe she used more chakra in her punch too, that could have been part of it. But it wasn't the sole reason why her strike was more powerful.


A bit better chakra control and some more momentum, if we're being honest, these things are not even explaining 1/50th of the difference in strike force exhibited between the two. Tsunade made an impressive crater and a mid sized wall crumble; Sakura's blow sent chunck's of earth flying that were like 1,000x larger than the Juublings, the larger of which were in turn as big as that wall Tsunade crumbled. And that's not even Sakura's most impressive feat. Her most impressive feat entails doing more damage to Kaguya with her strike, than Naruto did while having his strength enhanced by the chakra of all 9 Bijuu and Rikudo's God Sage-Mode. Tsunade's Tsūtenkyaku as impressive as it might be relative to what most Naruto characters are capable off, is not even in the same universe as Sakura's feats. Unless Sakura fell from space, momentum simply isn't explaining any large part of that difference; and unless Sakura hundreds of times better than Tsunade at chakra control [which would be criminally underrating Tsunade], nether is chakra control.



> The problem is that collecting huge amounts of chakra into a limb is not going to be precise chakra control, if we are to assume that precise chakra control means *using less chakra for your techniques and having the same or better effects. *


That's not all chakra control is about. Chakra control is also just about, well controlling chakra. That's why Chakra Control is integral to Rasengan mastery. In Okasho's case we are specifically told the application of chakra control; _"Maximal chakra is instantly kneaded inside the body, and all of it is enclosed into the right fist at a moment's notice!!"_

That's not about minimizing the amount of chakra utilized, heck the DB evokes the exact opposite of that message using a word like "maximal". It also evokes a contrary meaning to that when stating that  the technique will scale if more chakra is utilized. No part of this technique is about being minimalistic, it's all about channeling as much chakra as one can spare to ones fist and than letting it explode. The chakra control aspect is in the channeling and releasing of the chakra, not in being conservative.



> I don't agree with that. Any time Orochimaru has been hit its because he hasn't been fast or skilled enough to dodge. He repeatedly makes efforts to run away or defend himself when he feels threatened.


Again I'm going to trim some fat here. My point was specifically about what's IC for Orochimaru. I fully agree with you that most characters despite how tanky they might be, will still in most cases attempt to avoid being hit by the enemies attacks, but Orochimaru specifically has shown a much more laxed approach. The proof of that is him taking KN1's attack and laughing it off, despite him clearly showing the ability to react and defend himself against KN3 and KN4 attacks.​


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## Turrin (Mar 19, 2015)

> The manga doesn't bluntly state anything, hence this discussion. I've said my piece in regards to this point though, so I'll just move on since you aren't going to change your stance..


But it does. Katsuya directly explains to Orochimaru why healing is going so slowly. She states that she is using Byakugo's chakra, despite it being in diamond form, but it is running low, so she can't heal at her normal rate. There's no room to interpret that. 



> Do you happen to have a scan of the page/link to a scan?


Scan of what? The DB?



> It could give a speed boost because Sakura and Tsunade can potentially employ the chakra in such a way that it could allow them to move faster. It could not give a massive strength boost because there is no way that they can manipulate so much chakra in such a way that it would ever increase their strength far beyond its usual limitations. Chakra control is what ultimately augments their strength, not quantity. Focusing chakra to a specific point and then releasing it is what makes their strength so ferocious, not the sheer volume of chakra they spend doing so.


Except the manga has directly shown that having high volumes of chakra increase ones physical capabilities. Take Choji for instance. His physical capabilities dramatically increase in Butterfly Mode, because he gained a tremendously greater volume of chakra. There is no reason why Tsunade and Sakura with 2.5 ~3 Years worth of chakra to release into their bodies would not experience similar perks.

However, let's table this, because ultimately whether Raw-Chakra is increasing their physical capabilities or there capabilities are increasing due to channeling this chakra into various applications such as Okasho, Shunshin, Chakra to limbs, etc.. doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, as ether way that large volume of chakra is vastly enhancing their capabilities.



> _Either Kishimoto decided to change the name of the seal half way _through the Madara fight, or the Byakugou no In is possibly a Yin Seal. That is, the chakra that is stored inside of it is Yin chakra. Either way, they're obviously the same seal, so it is what it is.


Kishi reteconning the seal halfway through the Madara battle really wouldn't surprise me considering the week to week nonsense that was the War-Arc. However if that explanation doesn't strike your fancy, we can just go with them being two different seal. But there is no valid reason to consider them the same seal, as there would be absolutely no point to kishi introducing Byakugo at all, if it did the exact same thing as the Yin-Seal.



> You showed me Katsuyu saying that she was going to use chakra from the Byakugou seal, even though it wasn't released. Either its an issue with the translation or its a contradiction, because it makes absolutely no sense in relation to anything else we have been told or shown about the Byakugou no In.


Okay, let's talk about consistency a bit. Katsuya was consistently shown being able to use remote healing when the Byakugo seal was still in Diamond form, throughout the war-arc leading up to her comment to Orochimaru. So her once again drawing chakra from the seal in Diamond form, is indeed very consistent with what we've seen before. On the other hand every single time the seal was "opened" as you say, it has been to use Sousou Saisei; and the "opened" form of the seal is literally called Sousou Saisei Byakugo no Jutsu. Literally thee only "exception" (and I use quotes, because I don't thnk it actually is an exception) to this is when Tsunade goes to heal the alliance w/ 1/10th Katsuya to counter the God-Tree's effects. So that is the inconsistency with what we've been shown and told, not thee other way around.

However that is only an inconsistency if we work under the premise that Tsunade and Sakura were not simply channeling Sousou Saisei [or at least partially] to the alliance members. And not only is there nothing stating they cannot do this, but there is at least a partial precedence for this set with what Sakura does to Obito.



> They wouldn't be channelling chakra into the Byakugou no In, though, t*hey seem to be just somehow using it as a means of connecting their base reserves to Katsuyu*. If I'm honest, I don't know how this technique works because it was never properly explained. If Katsuyu does draw chakra directly from the Byakugou no In, then I call a contradiction in jutsu mechanics.


Maybe i'm missing something, but I seriously fail to see how that isn't still channeling chakra through Byakugo no In. 



> . If they can use chakra from the Byakugou no In without releasing it, then they would never have needed to release it in battle in the first place.


I honestly think Kishimoto just got confused, by not remembering how the Jutsu worked in Part I. In Part 1 the markings appeared due to the seal opening, however in the war arc the markings are instead their to represent the usage of Sousou Saisei. So I think Kishi just done fucked up and thought the markings were caused by Sousou Saisei, when their not. Or who knows maybe he fucked up in DBII, by saying they were there due to the Yin-seal opening. Idk.

However it's fairly clear that in the War-Arc, the seal doesn't "open", it's always accessible, and the markings are just representative of Sousou Saisei.



> I don't understand how/what leads you to believe the Byakugou no In and Yin Seal are different, though. Infuin: Kai was used twice in the Madara fight - the first time it was stated, the second time it was not [1] [2] . The first time she uses it, she uses the released chakra for Sozou Saisei. The second time she releases it, this isn't the case. So evidently the Infuin: Kai is not exclusively used for the Sozou Saisei technique.


The fact that they are called two different names, doesn't lead me to believe anything, it point blank period, tells us that they are different.  There has to be a difference, as otherwise Kishi wouldn't rename this shit.



> As far as I could tell she was just giving him chakra, I never saw her regenerating his injuries, which is what Sozou Saisei does.


Obito was doubling over in pain after a single Kamui, most likely it was Sousou Saisei healing him from that damage that kept him going, w/o going blind instantly or worse.



> If that were the case, I'd question why Tsunade didn't use Sozou Saisei on Naruto here, or when his arm was damaged on the cellular level by his Rasenshuriken, or indeed on any number of the villagers maimed by Pein during the invasion.


The first instance can simply be explained as Kishimoto didn't think off it yet. Were talking hundreds apon hundreds of chapters ago. 

The second instance is obvious plot BS, i'm sorry, but I have to call it what it is. As Tsunade says she can't heal shit on such a minute scale, but literally what the fuck does she do every time she uses Medical Ninjutsu. Like when Neji had a hole through his chest from Kidomaru's spear, am I seriously meant to believe that none of his chakra network was damage, yet Shizune (not even Tsunade) regrew Neji's flesh and closed the hole. So didn't she just regenerate his chakra network there? To me that line was just thrown in because the plot necessitated it, after all what would be the draw-back to FRS if Tsunade could just heal that shit.


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## GearsUp (Mar 19, 2015)

Sm changed things up a bit since jplaya was clearly the weakest in part 1


But overall I'd put it like SMJ, Tsuntsun, Orosenin, and regular jiraiya who didn't hacked anything left to show after Pein. Oro and Tsunade are more equal but none of em are completely even IMO


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## Icegaze (Mar 19, 2015)

jiraiya was the weakest in part 1??  

why do people come up with such BS


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