# Jiraiya vs Itachi and Kisame



## Bookworm (Dec 24, 2014)

*Scenario 1:*

*Location:* In a forest outside of Konoha
*Distance:* 15 meters
*Knowledge:* Manga (up to the point where Itachi and Jiraiya meet)
*Mindset:* IC with killing intent
*Restrictions:* None
*Conditions:* Itachi has used Amaterasu once, and Tsukuyomi twice already


*Scenario 2:*

*Location:* In a Lake outside of Konoha
*Distance:* 15 meters
*Knowledge:* Manga (up to the point where Itachi and Jiraiya meet)
*Mindset:* IC with killing intent
*Restrictions:* None
*Conditions:* Itachi has used Amaterasu once, and Tsukuyomi twice already


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## ARGUS (Dec 24, 2014)

Itachi and Kisame rape him, 

 - with jriaiya starting in base, he is a sitting duck for amaterasu, as itachi does exactly that, and sets him ablaze, to a point where he would be left immobilised before he does anything at all 

 - itachi can just engage him in CQC, and through his superior speed and reflexes, as well as the aid of kisame being able to immobilise him with water prison and absorbing his chakra just allows him to put jiraiya under tsukuyomi, which is just a GG 

 - Once susanoo comes out, Jiraiya gets pulverised, the same way Orochimarus hydra did, and when totsuka blade is also sealing him in, 

 - Summonings are garbage here, when kisame can attack them with 1000 feeding sharks, and samehada, or better yet, itachi can just one shot them with amaterasu, 

 - Itachi can also just use KA which is obviously a GG


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## Mercurial (Dec 24, 2014)

Itachi and Kisame win low diff.


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## Van Konzen (Dec 24, 2014)

We know what happened in Part 1..
2 guys in black coat ran for their lives... :ignoramus


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## Patrick (Dec 24, 2014)

In the lake Itachi and Kisame easily win. Kisame gets such a big boost from that he alone could give Jiraiya a good challenge. Add in Itachi and we have a clear winner.

Now in the forest it will be more of a match. Itachi didn't say Jiraiya would be too much to handle for nothing. We can just go by power levels and conclude two Kage level guys beat one but there is more to it. 

Jiraiya is well suited for fighting multiple people. He has Yomi Numa and Gamarinsho, which are both large scale moves that can immobilize targets to go for the finishing blow. Next to that of course also multiple frog summons with considerable fighting prowess. In Sage Mode he is also too fast and strong for either of them to handle him up close. 

Then we should also factor in that Itachi already used his MS three times, pretty sure he's feeling it already. He will have to use it again right away most likely since IC Jiraiya will go for the frog stomach again. Itachi will then IC use Amaterasu to get him and Kisame out. 

Don't forget that Kisame can't use his large scale water techniques either. They are the core of his fighting style and the very reason he can even be considered Kage level. If he did he would kill Itachi too. 

So if we look past simple power levels Jiraiya actually stands a good chance in this scenario.


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## RedChidori (Dec 24, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Itachi and Kisame rape him,
> 
> - with jriaiya starting in base, he is a sitting duck for amaterasu, as itachi does exactly that, and sets him ablaze, to a point where he would be left immobilised before he does anything at all
> 
> ...



This wholeheartedly  .


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## Hachibi (Dec 24, 2014)

>Almost 2015
>People still believing that Jiraiya could solo both Itachi and Kisame when he can lose to either individually



Anyways the duo low diff the second scenario and mid diff the first


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## Bonly (Dec 24, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> >Almost 2015
> >People still believing that Jiraiya could solo both Itachi and Kisame when he can lose to either individually
> 
> 
> ...



>Almost 2105
>People still deny manga canon that Itachi admitted that he and Kisame would die even if they had backup



Anyways the toad sage mid diff the sceond scenario and high diff the first. Don't worry Based Hussain I got your back <3


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## Hachibi (Dec 24, 2014)

Bonly said:


> >Almost 2105
> >People still deny manga canon that Itachi admitted that he and Kisame would die even if they had backup
> 
> 
> ...



>Almost 2015
>People still think that the statement hold value after Itachi was said to be invincible



Also "2105"

Beside, Itachi could do what he did in cannon: -Hypnotize a woman
-Backstab Jiraiya while he's busy with her


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## Bonly (Dec 24, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> >Almost 2015
> >People still think that the statement hold value after Itachi was said to be invincible
> 
> 
> ...



Welp I ran Skullys to use for this so you win this round 

**


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## Jagger (Dec 24, 2014)

To be perfectly honest, logic should dictate both Kisame and Itachi are capable of winning this, specially given the conditions where Kisame's terrifying abilities are twice as powerful. That alone should give Jiraiya a tough fight, adding an Uchiha user widely recognized for his Genjutsu skills it shouldn't be extremely hard.

Not to mention Jiraiya would need Sage Mode to put up a decent fight against them, which is an tremendous disadvantage for him.


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## Sword of the Morning (Dec 24, 2014)

If Jiraiya starts in Sage Mode he solos both mid difficulty.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 24, 2014)

Low Difficulty.



I mean, how the hell is SM Jiraiya going to avoid this or even counter it? There's no way and Itachi could just Amaterasu or just Totsuka blade his summons like there's no tomorrow. Sorry, but this is way too easy.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 24, 2014)

Jiraiya stomps their shit in both scenarios with ease. Itachi and Kisame have stated this already.

Obvious stomp thread.


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## Ghost (Dec 24, 2014)

Jiraiya gets raped.


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## Bloo (Dec 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Jiraiya stomps their shit in both scenarios with ease. Itachi and Kisame have stated this already.
> 
> Obvious stomp thread.


Really now? Is that why Kisame questioned the purpose of running away with Itachi's power?

*Spoiler*: _Official VizMedia Translation_ 




*"Why did we have to retreat...? With your power..."
~Kisame*



Itachi and Kisame stomp this. Either individually is going to give Jiraiya a lot of trouble, especially with him starting off in base, with Itachi being able to beat Jiraiya with him starting in base.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Jiraiya stomps their shit in both scenarios with ease. Itachi and Kisame have stated this already.
> 
> Obvious stomp thread.



Wow man are you serious?


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## IchLiebe (Dec 24, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Really now? Is that why Kisame questioned the purpose of running away with Itachi's power?
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Official VizMedia Translation_
> 
> ...


And Itachi stated it wasn't to be impatient and that he had to rest his body. Why don't you show the page about them speaking about Jiraiya(unless of course Kisame had no knowledge of Itachi's eye techniques before hand).


> Itachi and Kisame stomp this. Either individually is going to give Jiraiya a lot of trouble, especially with him starting off in base, with Itachi being able to beat Jiraiya with him starting in base.



Itachi s basically fodder since he is starting the match by already using 3 MS techniques. We know how much of an effect it had on his reactions and reflexes against Hebi Sasuke. Also in that same page you posted Itachi stated that it was mostly because he done used Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi separately(Tsukuyomi twice).

Kisame isn't destroying Jiraiya, his best hope is that he drains his chakra. Toad oil is GG against Kisame as well as Yomi Numa.

Jiraiya has also shown to be adept in water, infiltrating the rain village from the water. Also traveled from Konoha to the Rain village through water very quickly.

Jiraiya is to versatile, power, and intelligent to be taken down by Sharkboy and Fodderman.


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## Bloo (Dec 24, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And Itachi stated it wasn't to be impatient and that he had to rest his body. Why don't you show the page about them speaking about Jiraiya(unless of course Kisame had no knowledge of Itachi's eye techniques before hand).


Kisame said that Itachi would be a match for him. Itachi, the liar with a purpose, said otherwise. Why does your argument rest on that when feats heavily deny it?


> Itachi s basically fodder since he is starting the match by already using 3 MS techniques. We know how much of an effect it had on his reactions and reflexes against Hebi Sasuke. Also in that same page you posted Itachi stated that it was mostly because he done used Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi separately(Tsukuyomi twice).
> 
> Kisame isn't destroying Jiraiya, his best hope is that he drains his chakra. Toad oil is GG against Kisame as well as Yomi Numa.
> 
> ...


Quit reading when you said Itachi is fodder. Nothing you say can be taken seriously, in my opinion. It'd be more productive to spend my time picking my nose than debate with you.


StarWanderer said:


> Wow man are you serious?


IchLiebe is deathly serious. He would argue that Itachi loses to Konohamaru if the thread were made.


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Dec 24, 2014)

Bloo said:


> IchLiebe is deathly serious. He would argue that Itachi loses to Konohamaru if the thread were made.



Itachi already lost to bunshin feint + rasengan once. Konohamaru is highly skilled in this tactic, he even soloed one of the Pain bodies with it.

Konohamaru no diff 10/10 times, it's manga canon.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 24, 2014)

^This man gets it. And no, it's not that I would argue for Konohamaru in Itachi vs Konohamaru. It's that I have argued for Konohamaru in Itachi vs Konohamaru. Same result Renji said.


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## Bloo (Dec 24, 2014)

^ At least you're honest. I'll give you that.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 24, 2014)

With Itachi in this condition (having used Amaterasu once and Tsukuyomi twice), Jiraiya has a shot if he plays his cards right. This means immediately retreating into cover and using hit-and-run tactics to wear down the two Akatsuki and buy time while the elder toads prepare Gamarinsho. That kind of a fight could turn out either way or potentially result in the mutual destruction Itachi estimated.

Engaging the Akatsuki team directly and in base form, with such limited intel, would be suicide for Jiraiya.


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## Arles Celes (Dec 25, 2014)

Itachi and Jiraiya are roughly in the same tier with either being able to either draw or win depending on the day.

Kisame as shown during his fight with Bee was shown as a really strong, clever and resourceful shinobi and I think he is strong enough to make this battle a low diff victory for Itachi if they overwhelm Jiraiya before he enters SM and a mid diff if he starts in SM. Of course Itachi is a bit tired in those scenarios so Itachi needs to play smart but he got the IQ to do so and Kisame can absorb any upcoming attacks with Samehada and more than match Base Jiraiya's taijutsu especially with his own super strength.


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## korykal (Dec 25, 2014)

Hm, I'm a huge Jiraiya fan but even I have doubts on this one.

Regarding Itachi ( the living version that actually gets tired cause of EMS use ) I see them as close to equal . Itachi himself said it . But that's with a rested Itachi. In this scenario he's already used several EMS techs so I would give it to Jiraiya clearly although he would have to break a sweat .

Then u throw Kisame into the mix and this gets a bit overwhelming . I think Jiraiya is better than Kisame any day , water source or not . Kisame never stated he could take him alone, he was just confident that the both of them could .

 .... And he has a point really. He's a kage level fighter in his own right that would take Jiraiya's almost full attention to bring down. And Itachi , even a tired Itachi , can still be very skillful and tricky . Jiraiya can't afford not to give him a lot of focus either . 

How about you start him in sage mode ? More minds and eyes on his side would help a lot in this case and his version of sage mode just takes to long to activate in a fight .


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## Veo (Dec 25, 2014)

While Jiraya can defeat Itachi or Kisame individually, he would lose 2 v 1. He absolutely needs sage mode in order to put up a fight 2 v 1 but even then his chances are low (however he'd not be as easy as many people think).


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 25, 2014)

With waterdome, I don't understand how SM  can do jack chit when his mobility is messed up which means he'd have to rely on ninjustu which is just getting absorbed. Then again, I may be underestimating SM Jiraya here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 26, 2014)

You must be trolling.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 26, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> With waterdome, I don't understand how SM  can do jack chit when his mobility is messed up which means he'd have to rely on ninjustu which is just getting absorbed. Then again, I may be underestimating SM Jiraya here.



Jiraiya has shown an adeptness in swimming. He made it from the Leaf to the rain village very quickly given the large distance. 

And Kisame would be turned into a stone.


Itachi is fodder because of his MS uses already. 1 Tsukuyomi was enough to degrade his reactions and reflexes to where he couldn't dodge a simple rigged shuriken.


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## Patrick (Dec 26, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Jiraiya has shown an adeptness in swimming. He made it from the Leaf to the rain village very quickly given the large distance.
> 
> And Kisame would be turned into a stone.
> 
> ...



He wasn't fucked up because of the Tsukuyomi. He was near blind at that point and only standing because of drugs.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 26, 2014)

Patrick said:


> He wasn't fucked up because of the Tsukuyomi. He was near blind at that point and only standing because of drugs.



First of all he used drugs to prolong his life. We have no idea what kind of drugs he was taking. Hell for all we know it could've been anti-biotics.

Yet after Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, he intercepted Itachi in the middle of handseals and got him with a rigged shuriken.

Link removed

Link removed
Link removed

Notice how no party involved in either conversation brought up any type of sickness or injury; just Tsukuyomi.


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## Bloo (Dec 26, 2014)

IchLiebe, I am truly curious as to why you always show up and spam the hell out of every thread that has the word "Itachi" in it? What compels you to show up in these threads all the time? You post more about Itachi than most of his devoted fans. You always show up with your very liberal interpretations of the manga concerning Itachi, to the point where you even tried to question if he was sick at all. Why does Itachi have you bothered so much?


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## IchLiebe (Dec 26, 2014)

Bloo said:


> IchLiebe, I am truly curious as to why you always show up and spam the hell out of every thread that has the word "Itachi" in it? What compels you to show up in these threads all the time? You post more about Itachi than most of his devoted fans. You always show up with your very liberal interpretations of the manga concerning Itachi, to the point where you even tried to question if he was sick at all. Why does Itachi have you bothered so much?



I usually post to correct someone or tell them they're wrong. Itachi fans have this idea that he's this amazing badass who's invincible and beats everyone. To the point that Izanami gets argued in most his threads despite him even saying it's a useless jutsu. So yes, I'm going to argue against that bullshit. 

And while Itachi fans have died down a little bit, try to remember the weekly Itachi edit thread of him solo'ing everyone, not being able to go in a Itachi thread without seeing 20 posts of "Itachi solo's ", and the general Itachi bullshit. My posts about Itachi don't come close to Itachifans posts.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 26, 2014)

Bloo said:


> IchLiebe, I am truly curious as to why you always show up and spam the hell out of every thread that has the word "Itachi" in it? What compels you to show up in these threads all the time? You post more about Itachi than most of his devoted fans. You always show up with your very liberal interpretations of the manga concerning Itachi, to the point where you even tried to question if he was sick at all. Why does Itachi have you bothered so much?



Itachi represents the rare group of rich, popular, genius, talented, charismatic and wise people.

Which pretty much stands against everything Ichliebe is. So he hates Itachi, and everyone who doesn't hate him.
You don't have to be a psychology major to know that.


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## Bloo (Dec 26, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I usually post to correct someone or tell them they're wrong. Itachi fans have this idea that he's this amazing badass who's invincible and beats everyone. To the point that Izanami gets argued in most his threads despite him even saying it's a useless jutsu. So yes, I'm going to argue against that bullshit.
> 
> And while Itachi fans have died down a little bit, try to remember the weekly Itachi edit thread of him solo'ing everyone, not being able to go in a Itachi thread without seeing 20 posts of "Itachi solo's ", and the general Itachi bullshit. My posts about Itachi don't come close to Itachifans posts.


I see non-Itachi fans post that as a joke to how he's portrayed in the manga...


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi represents the rare group of rich, popular, genius, talented, charismatic and wise people.
> 
> Which pretty much stands against everything Ichliebe is. So he hates Itachi, and everyone who doesn't hate him.
> You don't have to be a psychology major to know that.


I know. I just wanted to hear his reasoning.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 26, 2014)

Lets see, I make an argument for Jiraiya, which I believe is a good basis. People continue not to make an argument against it, but an argument against me....nice to know.


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## Bloo (Dec 26, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Lets see, I make an argument for Jiraiya, which I believe is a good basis. People continue not to make an argument against it, but an argument against me....nice to know.


"Itachi is fodder" is not a good basis and is riddled with extreme bias. That's why no one takes you seriously. Or you explicitly stating that you've argued that Konohamaru beats Itachi in a fight.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 26, 2014)

Bloo said:


> "Itachi is fodder" is not a good basis and is riddled with extreme bias. That's why no one takes you seriously. Or you explicitly stating that you've argued that Konohamaru beats Itachi in a fight.



Shows your reading comprehension.



			
				Ichliebe said:
			
		

> *Itachi s basically fodder since he is starting the match by already using 3 MS techniques. We know how much of an effect it had on his reactions and reflexes against Hebi Sasuke*. Also in that same page you posted Itachi stated that it was mostly because he done used Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi separately(Tsukuyomi twice).


Then I proceeded on to show and tell you.



> Yet after Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi, he intercepted Itachi in the middle of handseals and got him with a rigged shuriken.
> 
> Frog call
> 
> ...



My argument is based on them admitting inferiority. Itachi's reflexes take a drastic hit from using Tsukuyomi, and in this case he has twice. So he won't be able to keep pace as well as he would like to and Jiraiya and a wide array of jutsu that can beat him. Yomi Numa solos any Itachi. Kisame is the biggest threat but Jiraiya will still get the better of him due to vast amount of jutsu(toad oil Katon is GG) and can swim rather quick in water.

Not to mention Food Cart Destroyer and SM(which makes the duo a bloody mess). And Frog song solos both no matter what.


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## Bloo (Dec 26, 2014)

^ My reading comprehension is just fine.


			
				IchLiebe said:
			
		

> Jiraiya is to versatile, power, and intelligent to be taken down by Sharkboy and Fodderman.



Look, if you want people to actually bother to look at your arguments, then calling a combatant "Fodderman" just reveals your heavy bias and makes you look less believable as a debater. I would also suggest changing your location as well. Until then, don't expect people to take you seriously on the topic of Itachi. It doesn't matter how many links you provide, your heavy bias is clear and makes it hard to take you seriously. That's very basic principles of rhetoric.


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## Cognitios (Dec 26, 2014)

Itachi solos 

Really, why isn't this being deleted?

It's only going to turn into a fuckfest with Ich trying to soil Itachi's name but only soiling his own with Bloo, Niku, Grim,  and maybe myself and Strat trying to explain this to him then we'll have a repeat next week.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 26, 2014)

Bloo said:


> ^ My reading comprehension is just fine.
> 
> 
> Look, if you want people to actually bother to look at your arguments, then calling a combatant "Fodderman" just reveals your heavy bias and makes you look less believable as a debater. I would also suggest changing your location as well. Until then, don't expect people to take you seriously on the topic of Itachi. It doesn't matter how many links you provide, your heavy bias is clear and makes it hard to take you seriously. That's very basic principles of rhetoric.



Yet you people do the same thing with other characters. And you are heavily biased for Itachi so you aren't a credible debater neither.

Fuck you and Itachi might be a better location.


Yes doesn't matter how much links I provide, how much evidence I provide, nor how much sense I make because you discard it as biased. 

Again way to prove my point, dont' attack me, attack my arguments.


And hell for most the people on here are biased in one way or another but that doesn't discredit their evidence on hand nor their entire argument. You are grasping at straws now and you know it.


I can go on and on about the people that are bias for Itachi, but would you discredit their arguments. Hell no, you will jump on their dick aswell.

But please continue to wank Itachi w/ your 'credible' arguments that are founded on 'evidence' of some kind.


Oh and yes everyone for the last time; I, Ichliebe, hate Itachi, I despise him. He isn't that great of a shinobi and needs hype and false statements to make him look good.

Well your God Itachi, has stated inferiority against Jiraiya and Kisame even if they had backup.


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## Bloo (Dec 26, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yet you people do the same thing with other characters. And you are heavily biased for Itachi so you aren't a credible debater neither.


Yeah, you're right, .

Just because someone is a fan, and they think Itachi wins a fight, does not mean that they are always fanning out. There are those fans that do in every fan base, but to say that about the whole is both arrogant and only hurtful towards yourself.



> Fuck you and Itachi might be a better location.


Go for it, only proves my point even further.



> Yes doesn't matter how much links I provide, how much evidence I provide, nor how much sense I make because you discard it as biased.


You're the person who argued that Itachi probably wasn't sick and that he loses to Konohamaru. Sense isn't a factor in your arguments against Itachi. You will draw anything up to make Itachi on the losing end of it and that's why no one listens to you.



> Again way to prove my point, dont' attack me, attack my arguments.


I have more important things to do with my time than have a never-ending argument with you on this that could go on for pages of posts. You have much more stamina and patience on this forum than I do. So this is my last post in this thread that will be addressed to you.




> And hell for most the people on here are biased in one way or another but that doesn't discredit their evidence on hand nor their entire argument. You are grasping at straws now and you know it.
> 
> 
> I can go on and on about the people that are bias for Itachi, but would you discredit their arguments. Hell no, you will jump on their dick aswell.
> ...


Good for you.



> Well your God Itachi, has stated inferiority against Jiraiya and Kisame even if they had backup.


Well, my "god" has a nasty habit of lying. So, I'll take Kisame's heavy doubt in the need to flee over Itachi's implication that a battle between Itachi (with or without backup that most likely referred to other Akatsuki members) and Jiraiya would result in a tie, because that makes entirely no sense. Him lying makes a ton more sense given his true motive with that visit to Konoha. But, ignore that all you want.

Have a grand day.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 26, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Yeah, you're right, .


Thank god you are not that dumb. Obito is clearly above Itachi even in genjutsu.

And says the guy with an Itachi avatar. And itachi is your favorite character




> Just because someone is a fan, and they think Itachi wins a fight, does not mean that they are always fanning out. There are those fans that do in every fan base, but to say that about the whole is both arrogant and only hurtful towards yourself.


Yes attacking me again I see. You have issues.
Oh so its alright to be a fan of Itachi, but not dislike Itachi...you prove my point.





> Go for it, only proves my point even further.


And doesn't bother me. You try to discredit my arguments by discrediting me, you know why? Because you can't discredit my arguments alone. I might be biased but understand I put more energy in Itachi threads than most Itachi fanboys do. I know plenty about Itachi and have even tried to argue for him only to be shutdown by Munboy. 


> You're the person who argued that Itachi probably wasn't sick and that he loses to Konohamaru. Sense isn't a factor in your arguments against Itachi. You will draw anything up to make Itachi on the losing end of it and that's why no one listens to you.


 He can lose to Konohamaru. Also that was in a joke thread if i remember correctly

. Unrestricted alive Itachi would 10/10 Konohamaru in most cases though.


I argued that we don't know what sickness Itachi had, might've been a bad infection...we don't know yet you take it as it effected him so greatly that a healthy Itachi would be well above alive Itachi despite that not being supported by a shred of evidence. 


> I have more important things to do with my time than have a never-ending argument with you on this that could go on for pages of posts. You have much more stamina and patience on this forum than I do. So this is my last post in this thread that will be addressed to you.


Addressed to me, but not my argument...so you concede?



> Good for you.


Expected response. You see you discredit me using my bias beliefs, yet don't discredit your own or that of your peers due to it falling into you belief system and not fucking with it. The problem you have with me is that I through a wrench into the cog every so often and you can't get it out.





> Well, my "god" has a nasty habit of lying. So, I'll take Kisame's heavy doubt in the need to flee over Itachi's implication that a battle between Itachi (with or without backup that most likely referred to other Akatsuki members) and Jiraiya would result in a tie, because that makes entirely no sense. Him lying makes a ton more sense given his true motive with that visit to Konoha. But, ignore that all you want.


Again expected response, no fucking lie I knew you were going to reply to that part with this.

But yet when Ao says Itachi can put multitudes of people in a genjutsu from long range....its believable? What fallacy.

And Kisame was paired with Itachi just because of his ties with Konoha. Point is they retreated both times when a shinobi that was threatening appeared(Gai, then Jiraiya).

So you are saying no matter who the bodyguard for Naruto would've been, be it Shikamaru, Konohamaru, or whomever that Itachi's true motives wouldn't allow Kisame to capture the 9tails, bullshit.

Itachi is lying whenever it don't support your belief yet anything about Itachi that supports that belief is taken as gold. Just like the DB, if it supports Itachi(that part is factual) if it doesn't(then that part is horseshit).


> Have a grand day.


Have a good day, maybe you will have better luck against me in a different argument.


Hell I haven't even went final form yet.

Also you aren't that biased, you admit when Itachi loses, But i will admit when he wins at times as well. But you are still bias as he is your favorite character.


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## Bookworm (Dec 26, 2014)

korykal said:


> Hm, I'm a huge Jiraiya fan but even I have doubts on this one.
> 
> Regarding Itachi ( the living version that actually gets tired cause of EMS use ) I see them as close to equal . Itachi himself said it . But that's with a rested Itachi. In this scenario he's already used several EMS techs so I would give it to Jiraiya clearly although he would have to break a sweat .
> 
> ...




The reason I started this thread is to see who everybody thought would win if they fought, in the situation they were in the manga. IMO Nikumushi's right Jiraiya has a small chance to win if he plays his cards right.


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## Veo (Dec 27, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Itachi solos
> 
> Really, why isn't this being deleted?
> 
> It's only going to turn into a fuckfest with Ich trying to soil Itachi's name but only soiling his own with Bloo, Niku, Grim,  and maybe myself and Strat trying to explain this to him then we'll have a repeat next week.



Well, at the same time he is entitled to debate whatever he wants, no matter who disagrees. Some of the people you mention can be considered as biased as Ich Liebe.


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## SSMG (Dec 28, 2014)

I can zee itachi beating jiraiya more times than not.

I can see kisame beating jiraiya more times than not.

Combined jiraiya absolutely demolished


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## IchLiebe (Dec 28, 2014)

SSMG said:


> I can zee itachi beating jiraiya more times than not.
> 
> I can see kisame beating jiraiya more times than not.
> 
> Combined jiraiya absolutely demolished



What a great response

/sarcasm.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 28, 2014)

Jiraiya actually has a chance here if he starts with Yomi Numa, a technique neither of these ninja are aware of.

He can sink Itachi easily with it, he's weakened and won't see it coming, he's defeated with two seals.

As for Kisame, he can absorb a partial of the swamp or simply move through it with his earth ninjutsu.

From there, he has a chance to blindside Base Jiraiya, but that doesn't guarantee victory, as I doubt Jiraiya will lower his guard just because he's successfully sunk them. 

Overall, it can go either way between Kisame and Jiraiya; This is assuming he uses Yomi Numa at start to neutralize Itachi, he hasn't done it in the manga against Orochimaru, Animal Path, or a number of the paths in SM. Personally, I think it's because the technique is broken and Kishimoto refused to allow Jiraiya to use it, but who knows, maybe Jiraiya just doesn't use it IC. 

If he doesn't start with Yomi Numa, he'll get hit with Amaterasu or run down by Itachi/his bunshin & Kisame/his bunshins, Kisame was fast enough to react to V1 Killer Bee and side-step his linear blitz, and his 30% incarnation was outperforming Base Gai, 30% Itachi was out performing Kakashi's bunshin, and while Sick/after a relatively weakened Tsukyomi (definitely didn't go all out on Sasuke there) he was still capable of avoiding Sasuke's Fire Ball from in-close. Itachi's fireball was fast enough to force Kakashi to dig underground to avoid it seemingly, and nearly hit Naruto, Sakura and Chiyo from a considerable distance, this provides a great feint for Kisame or his own bunshin to land a killer blow against Jiraiya. He, of course, has his own bunshin and Lion's Mane, however.

In other words, if Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa at start, I give him a 50% chance of defeating the Duo. If he does not, I give him basically no chance of defeating the duo, and he'd be killed within a time-span of 3 seconds - 1 minute.

If this were SM Jiraiya w/ Ma & Pa or if he started on Gamabunta from 100m in base, I'd give a significantly better chance of defeating them.

1. In Sm he can sense the chakra build-up before Amaterasu (he knows Itachi has it) and effectively counter it with Boiler Wave/Odama Rasengan/Dust Cloud, and he's fast enough to create enough distance to implement long-range attacks with Gamabunta or Frog Song, effectively pressuring the Duo. 

2. Starting 100m on Gamabunta gives him the ability to create more distance with a frog-leap at start battle, Gamabunta can leap hundreds of meters instantly to avoid the range of Amaterasu at start battle and his Oil Flame Bullet (if Gamabunta + Jiraiya use it immediately) is capable of stopping it before it hits Gamabunta, assuming he reacts to it. On top of Gamabunta, he'll have the speed to avoid the ninja long enough to enter SM, and apply the tactics presented above.

In both scenarios above (that I've created), Yomi Numa can still provide him enough time to effectively get a hand on the match.

Jiraiya is a bad matchup for Itachi because of Yomi Numa (in base), and because of his SM sensory ability (in SM) along with being paired with two other Sages who can effectively neutralize 80% of his Genjutsu arsenal immediately (save Tsukuyomi of course, that would drop Jiraiya to his knees before Ma & Pa could help).


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## Bloo (Dec 28, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Jiraiya actually has a chance here if he starts with Yomi Numa, a technique neither of these ninja are aware of.
> 
> He can sink Itachi easily with it, he's weakened and won't see it coming, he's defeated with two seals.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.


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## Icegaze (Jan 7, 2015)

ichibe opinions on itachi are normally like lint or a bottle cap something to remove. "yes equalizer line"

However in this case he is partlly right, at 2 tskuyomi and 1 ama already used itachi is the weakest here and is alot less of a treat than kisame

if jiraiya can watch out and avoid genjutsu, something within his reach he should be able to reduce itachi to asuma level till itachi attempts MS and dies from using it 

Ichi please note when you have a cold, just what we call the common cold your physical performance greatly diminishes, you wouldnt run 100m with the same speed when you have a cold and when you dont. 

now thats just an ailment which is common, not somethign bad enough to make you cough out blood 

now itachi fans then twist it to mean, if he werent sick he would be much stronger. Or even more of a threat, this is entirely false. 

MS jutsu puts strain on him regardless of his health, they put enough to diminish his ablities to the point where, when fighting someone like jiriaya which he needs 100% of his physical capabilities to fight with, after the use of MS when healthy this reduces whether it be to 90 or 70 or below that.

 When sick it would obviously diminish more but if you need 100% of your physical abilities to fight someone its obvious than a portion of that removed means said person would physically bully you 

at 3 MS uses i doubt he is physically at 100%.  he is much better off going for susanoo and tryign to win ASAP. 

They obviously beat jiraiya but felt the need to clarify stuff. 

Yomi numa is what it is a jutsu which can be defeated as easily as anyone thinks amaterasu can be defeated. 

when you hear some say jiraiya spits boiling oil to block amaterasu which appears on target, i say if that can actually be argued then itachi simply jumps out of yomi numa before it is cast. both sound just as ridiculous. 

i would say though that amaterasu heat did turn the cave back to its original shape. No reason amaterasu cant troll yomi numa


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## Bkprince33 (Jan 7, 2015)

Cognitios said:


> Itachi solos
> 
> Really, why isn't this being deleted?
> 
> It's only going to turn into a fuckfest with Ich trying to soil Itachi's name but only soiling his own with Bloo, Niku, Grim,  and maybe myself and Strat trying to explain this to him then we'll have a repeat next week.






how dare you not add my name to the list of advent itachi supporters



itachi already had sasuke beat, had he seriously decided to fight jiraiya i doubt he would of tsukiyomied sasuke for the lolz, and we all know itachi could of lit jiraiya's ass on fire with amatarasu instead of the toad stomach because that would have dispelled the summon all together but the haters gone hate


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## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Really now? Is that why Kisame questioned the purpose of running away with Itachi's power?
> 
> *"Why did we have to retreat...? With your power..."
> ~Kisame*



The viz makes it seem like it's not Jiraiya's hype anyway, but Naruto's hidden power (that Sasuke's hyping on the same page.)
​


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## Cognitios (Jan 8, 2015)

Looking at the Viz translation idk how people are misinterpreting it.

The whole "if we faced each other off we'd probably end up killing each other thing" was stated before even bringing up jiraiya.
"It was great finally finding him at the ramen shop, but ... his babysitter was one of the three great shinobi of Konoha legend". The referred to "him" is obviously Kurama, to which Itachi's statement makes complete sense. Of all Akatsuki Itachi is best suited to taking on Bijuu, Totsuka + Genjutsu + Susanoo + Yata + Amaterasu makes him a perfect bijuu slayer. 
The whole "Even the titles Konoha's Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison " thing just means Perception of Sannin > Perception of Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist. I doubt anyone would argue that the average Sannin would stomp the average uchiha clan member and seven ninja swordsmen. I can't see Fugaku beating any sannin or Zabuza, and they were the second most powerful of each groups at the time.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 8, 2015)

Lol at people thinking Naruto posed any threat to Kisame or Itachi at that time.

Especially given both of their abilities against Tailed Beast. It is said that Itachi can control tailed beast(though never shown) with MS, and that Kisame is able to absorb chakra and has no fear when taking on any beast, he loves to fight tailed beast and capture them. I don't think he would be hyping a jin of the 9tails that much. ANd he also would refer to Kurama as he, but as it; and I kinda feel that he would refer to Naruto as a it, as jins aren't considered normal people and usually classified not far from a monster.

You are right cog, out of all of the Akatsuki except for Nagato, they are the most perfect team to hunt bijuus. One can suppress the Kyuubi(Kisame) and one can control if they can't suppress. Not to mention for Naruto all they would have to do is tsukuyomi him and knock him out. Worse case scenario for them is if they pissed Naruto off so bad that he fully released the kyuubi then they have to fight the strongest bijuu. 

If Obito, Nagato, and whomever didn't think that Itachi and Zabuza stood a chance against the Kyuubi then he wouldn't have sent them and Deidara, Sasori, and Kakuzu wouldn't have even attempted to fight Naruto if Kisame and Itachi were supposedly scared they couldn't even stalemate.


Shows just what delusions you have. Nothing there suggest that Naruto was any threat to top tier ninjas, and had no reason to become extremely pissed off unless they were purposely agitating him.

Also Kisame more or less stated that Naruto wasn't any trouble after he ate the chakra for the summoning
1
1


And they even attempted a bitch move and lure Jiraiya away from Naruto. And Kisame referred to Jiraiya as the 'Great Jiraiya'.
1
1

And Sasuke even pleaded with Jiraiya not to kill Itachi. And Jiraiya even pulled out black magic
1

Itachi could've used Tsukuyomi against Jiraiya instead of Sasuke and Amaterasu on him instead of using it to escape...but didn't. You want to know why. Because Jiraiya the epitome of manliness bitched him out and scared him so bad he wouldn't even attempt to fight him.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 8, 2015)

i.e. the worst case scenario is Kurama gives kid Naruto his full power to stop Akatsuki (and Kurama would thus be saving himself.) So, BM Naruto, basically. Kurama's power is what they feared.

Not the dude armless Orochimaru laughed off. Jiraiya's reputation was below that of Orochimaru, and most Akatsuki members didn't think Orochimaru was above them (Deidara being the low-end.)
​


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## IchLiebe (Jan 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> i.e. the worst case scenario is Kurama gives kid Naruto his full power to stop Akatsuki (and Kurama would thus be saving himself.) So, BM Naruto, basically. Kurama's power is what they feared.
> ​


Itachi has the MS which some believe that to mean he can control bijuus. Then you have Kisame who is a bijuu hunter and reveals in fighting the jins. He easily fought against Bee and he had way better control(even stated by akatsuki higher ups) than other jins(bar the other one). They never not one time hinted to fearing the kyuubi nor Naruto. 

Itachi didn't even pay Naruto much attention at all once Sasuke showed up. Itachi could have Tsukuyomid Naruto and knocked him out, but instead decided to waste it on Sasuke(after Jiraiya showed up and threatened them). 

When Naruto tried to use the kyuubis power to summon Gamabunta Kisame more or less laughed in his face. Then when Jiraiya, no the great Jiraiya, showed up he hyped Jiraiya and then did absolutely nothing against him(it is very unlike Kisame to run from a fight). Kisame was attacking Naruto(though just toying with him) and Itachi was beating Sasukes ass(pissing Naruto off). They in no way implied in sort of fear or respect towards Naruto, Sasuke. Itachi even had to use MS to ESCAPE. He had to use the highest form of the Uchiha art of run(except for Madara vs Hashirama).


Jiraiya can solo them with toad stomach(depending on stipulations, Frog Song would solo, SM would absolutely solo, Toad oil + fuuton combo, in the case of the manga food cart destroyer, Yomi Numa,and boss sumons are good support.



> Not the dude armless Orochimaru laughed off. Jiraiya's reputation was below that of Orochimaru, and most Akatsuki members didn't think Orochimaru was above them (Deidara being the low-end.)


You mean the dude that was drugged and couldn't even summon Gamabunta as a result of the effects. And Yomi Numa was way to shallow as noted, it would've solod that snake.

They have a different type of reputation. Everyone knows which one ran away in a hissy fit after Jiraiyas student beat him out of the position(also note Jiraiya wasn't interested in the hokage position).


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## Sadgoob (Jan 9, 2015)

What did Kurama do when almost captured by Akatsuki?

1. Jiraiya

2. Biju Mode Naruto.

Which one wouldn't get lol-fucked by Itachi and all of Akatsuki?

There's your answer for who the hype was aimed at.

(Hint: it's not the dude that needed backup against Animal Path.)


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## IchLiebe (Jan 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> What did Kurama do when almost captured by Akatsuki?


He got pissed off and started releasing the nine tails chakra, until he finally released the Kyuubi but didn't fully. The kyuubi and Kurama have different personalities and objectives. 





> 1. Jiraiya
> 
> 2. Biju Mode Naruto.
> 
> ...


Itachi and Kisame had no idea how powerful Pain was.

The evidence is there. They showed no fear nor respect towards Naruto or to the kyuubi, but did show Jiraiya respect and dared not entice him or attack him. I don't remember Naruto telling Kisame and Itachi that he was going to kill the both with his own hands, Jiraiya did. It is also unlike Kisame to run. Kisame was actively talking shit to Naruto and showed no fear when Naruto attempted to use the kyuubi's chakra for summoning Gamabunta.

Their objective was to capture the kyuubi, there is no reason to suggest that they thought that the kyuubi would overwhelm both of them because if they did someone else would have been sent in their place. 

You think the kyuubi can take all of Akatsuki? That would mean that their plan was fucked from the get go. Yet Jiraiya a great sanin with legendary hype in the narutoverse, everyone knows him because of how powerful he is. He has completed more missions than any other shinobi, 138 S rank missions.

Animal path has summons that Jiraiya couldn't deal with alone, also Animal path wasn't alone, mainly Cerebrus. He needed SM, but the thing is he didn't use SM to escape from the battle with the paths. Itachi used Amaterasu(MS) to escape from Jiraiya.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

Jiraiya cannot take both on if itachi had his full moveset but after 2 MS uses it gives jiriaya a better chance

please note nothing stops itachi from using amaterasu off the bat which instantly gives him a win. 

Unless jiraiya can summon the scroll and get rid of the flames while kisame and itachi watch him do that. 

i find it unlikely.


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## Horizon28 (Jan 14, 2015)

Itachi and Kisame stomp both scenarios. Most of Jiraiya's jutsus will get drained/absorbed by samehada,wasting Jiraiya's chakra in the process and then getting stomped by the Itachi.


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## ShadowReaper (Jan 14, 2015)

Jiraya gets stomped horribly.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Jan 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The viz makes it seem like it's not Jiraiya's hype anyway, but Naruto's hidden power (that Sasuke's hyping on the same page.)
> ​







The duo was bummed out when they discovered that Jiraiya was accompanying Naruto - and then proceeded to comment that the Uchiha Clan's (Itachi) ans Seven Swordsmen of the Mist's (Kisame) names & reputation would be stained if they decided to fight him (Jiraya).

Not once was Kurama even discussed here to be the issue with a successful capture of Naruto.
I'm really intruiged on where you guys are acquiring this from.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2015)

@quickdraw
They be making that shit up 
Regardless jiraiya can't beat both of them


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## FlamingRain (Jan 14, 2015)

Cognitios said:


> Looking at the Viz translation idk how people are misinterpreting it.



Because the grand majority of people forgo subject change in casual conversation all the time, so many readers take it that Jiraiya is simply the understood noun they are referring to even at the start, an interpretation that only becomes more plausible when you consider that Itachi and Kisame sure seemed to be a lot more cautious of Jiraiya than they were of Naruto throughout the remainder of the arc.

I mean they tried to set up a distraction specifically for sneaking around Jiraiya, but had no qualms about strolling right up to big bad Naruto's room and knocking on the door before blatantly stating that he was coming with them.

When Naruto attempted to draw on the fox's power, _Kisame_, the one who earlier thought Itachi might be able to fight the person they were referring to but not himself, was the one who immediately took the initiative and casually shaved away Naruto's Nine Tails Chakra only to jokingly suggest shaving off his legs so that he doesn't try to run away; contrast that with how the moment _Jiraiya_ tried to attack all a fleeing Kisame did was panic about how they were going to be caught and Itachi had to resort to Amaterasu in order to bail them both out.

And what do other people in the Narutoverse think about this what-if scenario? Well, in Part 2 when everyone was contemplating why Akatsuki was taking so long to make a move Kakashi suggested that it was _because Jiraiya was with Naruto_, not because they might be scared of Kurama.



> The whole "Even the titles Konoha's Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison " thing just means Perception of Sannin > Perception of Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist.



If perception were irrelevant they wouldn't have brought it up in the first place. A person's accomplishments are what sets their hype into motion, after all.



> I doubt anyone would argue that the average Sannin would stomp the average uchiha clan member and seven ninja swordsmen. I can't see Fugaku beating any sannin or Zabuza, and they were the second most powerful of each groups at the time.



Do you mean you doubt anyone would argue with that, or that they would argue for that?

I hope it's not the latter.

But, I don't think anybody was referring to averages here.

Itachi's reputation isn't just that of any Uchiha, it's that of the man who massacred the Uchiha overnight. Kisame's reputation isn't that of just any member of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist, it's that of the Tailless Tailed Beast/Monster of the Hidden Mist.

The Sannin are for all intents and purposes revered as being identical to each other in power and ability. Trying to find an average for them is like trying to find an average between the numbers 10, 10, and 10.



Strategoob said:


> Jiraiya's reputation was below that of Orochimaru.​



This is false.

Konoha would not have been so desperate to find Jiraiya due to the belief that only a Sannin can defeat another Sannin if they saw the very Sannin they were trying to defeat (Orochimaru) as being stronger than the others. The guidebooks would not repute Tsunade to be every bit a match for Jiraiya _and_ Orochimaru, if one was stronger than the other. The databooks would not refer to them being feared as the strongest _three_, if in actuality Orochimaru just seen as the strongest one of them all.



> Most Akatsuki members didn't think Orochimaru was above them (Deidara being the low-end.)​



Kisame said Deidara was one of their more powerful members iirc, not one of their low-end ones, and Deidara wishing that he could kill Orochimaru doesn't mean he's above him any more than Deidara wishing he could kill Itachi means he's above him.

Honestly, Sasuke answering Karin's berating of him for taking so much damage against Deidara despite defeating Orochimaru by clarifying that Orochimaru was already weakened instead of saying something like "Deidara is just that powerful" points towards something else...


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