# SS goku vs Julius (black clover)



## MysticBlade (Oct 16, 2016)

starting distance 10 meters.
location deep forest.

who takes this one.


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## Iwandesu (Oct 16, 2016)

I...don't understand
Wasn't black cover below ft?


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## MysticBlade (Oct 16, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> I...don't understand
> Wasn't black cover below ft?



verse wise, individually the top tiers could take them out one on one pretty easily.

speed wise, they're leagues above ft. though i have a feeling later on the author is going to contradict himself when talking about BC speed. though hax is their main strong point.


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## Claudio Swiss (Oct 16, 2016)

MysticBlade said:


> verse wise, individually the top tiers could take them out one on one pretty easily.
> 
> speed wise, they're leagues above ft. though i have a feeling later on the author is going to contradict himself when talking about BC speed. though hax is their main strong point.


What can Julius do?


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## shade0180 (Oct 16, 2016)

Claudio Swiss said:


> What can Julius do?




His most potent ability is the ability to cut space, and they are currently light-speed.


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## xenos5 (Oct 17, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> His most potent ability is the ability to cut space, and they are currently light-speed.



Nope. Julius has never shown that ability. 

Yami's the one who can cut space.


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## shade0180 (Oct 17, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Yami's the one who can cut space.



Oh yea.. 

Sorry I confused him with Yami..


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

Julius can fast forward time and kill them unless its anime DBZ


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## xenos5 (Oct 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Julius can *fast forward time and kill them* unless its anime DBZ



When has he ever done that?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> When has he ever done that?


thats literally his magic, time magic. He aged Licht's hand into an old man and Licht said it was impossible to heal.

Hes also got Chrono Lock which im assuming freezes time around a target.


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## BreakFlame (Oct 17, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> When has he ever done that?



It's what he did to the light speed guy. And he aged two of the terrorist guys to dust in an instant.

Also, he has a form of targeted time stop.

Edit


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

His attack only grazed Licht and it made him have an old ass hand. He can also blitz people that Asta had trouble with before learning Ki and gets Lightspeed reactions at least from Yami


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## xenos5 (Oct 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> thats literally his magic, time magic. He aged Licht's hand into an old man and Licht said it was impossible to heal.
> 
> Hes also got Chrono Lock which im assuming freezes time around a target.



The way you explained it "fast forward time and kill them" just didn't make sense to me with the way it was phrased.

But regardless Saiyan's age much slower than humans so Goku should be able to nuke him before he gets too old.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> The way you explained it "fast forward time and kill them" just didn't make sense to me with the way it was phrased.
> 
> But regardless Saiyan's age much slower than humans so Goku should be able to nuke him before he gets too old.


Wrong. They stay in their prime till their 60's due to being a battle oriented race. They dont live longer than humans. Also aging people into dust means that unless Goku lives for thousands of years then hes dying.


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## xenos5 (Oct 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> His attack only grazed Licht and it made him have an old ass hand. He can also blitz people that Asta had trouble with before learning Ki and gets Lightspeed *reactions* at least from Yami



His movement speed is much slower so he wouldn't be able to dodge even a single large enough AOE attack from Goku.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> His movement speed is much slower so he wouldn't be able to dodge even a single large enough AOE attack from Goku.


Yami can keep up with Licht in CQC, from 10 meters Goku is gonna get time locked and blitzed


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## xenos5 (Oct 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Wrong. They stay in their prime till their 60's due to being a battle oriented race. They dont live longer than humans. Also *aging people into dust* means that unless Goku lives for thousands of years then hes dying.



Didn't you just say he just say all he did with it was age licht's hand into an old man's hand? That's not the same as turning it to dust. 

With the 10 meters distance Goku can still nuke him from the very start with an AOE attack and there'll be nothing Julius'll be able to do about it considering he can't counter or defend against Goku's level of DC, and he can't dodge an AOE attack of a large enough magnitude because his movement speed isn't on the same level as his reaction speed.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Oct 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yami can keep up with Licht in CQC, from 10 meters Goku is gonna get time locked and blitzed



movement speed=/=reaction speed. Whether or not Julius can seriously outpace Z SSJ Goku in close range he has to close the distance first. And Goku can fire off a large AOE ki blast before he can close that distance.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Didn't you just say he just say all he did with it was age licht's hand into an old man's hand? That's not the same as turning it to dust.
> 
> With the 10 meters distance Goku can still nuke him from the very start with an AOE attack and there'll be nothing Julius'll be able to do about it considering he can't counter or defend against Goku's level of DC, and he can't dodge an AOE attack of a large enough magnitude because his movement speed isn't on the same level as his reaction speed.


His attack _grazed_ Licht and turned his hand into an ancient looking dudes one. Direct hits turned Licht's subordinates into dust.

Too bad Julius can time lock Goku before he fires a ki blast since hes way faster and then Goku cant do shit. Or he blasts him into dust


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

Julius doesnt have to cover the distance since he can use his time lock before Goku can do anything, and then age him. He doesnt have to cover the 10m distance and probably doesnt even have to time lock him, his magic can hit a dude who moves at lightspeed


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## BreakFlame (Oct 17, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Didn't you just say he just say all he did with it was age licht's hand into an old man's hand? That's not the same as turning it to dust.
> 
> With the 10 meters distance Goku can still nuke him from the very start with an AOE attack and there'll be nothing Julius'll be able to do about it considering he can't counter or defend against Goku's level of DC, and he can't dodge an AOE attack of a large enough magnitude because his movement speed isn't on the same level as his reaction speed.



That was with a whiffed attack on an enemy he couldn't see and would still have killed him if his comrades hadn't sealed it.

And he's so fast that the terrorists, who later keep pace with Aster, couldn't see him move. Licht was barely able to escape him.

Also, you see to have the mistaken assumption he needs to be at close range to hit someone. His magic is ranged and faster than he is physically.


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## Claudio Swiss (Oct 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Wrong. They stay in their prime till their 60's due to being a battle oriented race. They dont live longer than humans. Also aging people into dust means that unless Goku lives for thousands of years then hes dying.


It's 80s mate anyways mind showing me Julius feats?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

this whole chapter


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

Goku, get this, is not faster than Julius. Before he can think, Julius can either blast him with his magic or use Chrono Stasis on him.



xenos5 said:


> What's your proof he used the same attack on Licht that he used on the subordinates? Could've just been a generic destructive attack that was way above what the subordinates could've handled.


Because his magic is Time Magic, any spells he has fall under that. Mages can only use 1 type of magic normally and cant fire off generic energy blasts


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## xenos5 (Oct 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Goku, get this, is not faster than Julius. Before he can think, Julius can either blast him with his magic or use Chrono Stasis on him.



Julius's attack speed is not instant. As I just said there was an indication/tell Julius was about to use Chrono Stasis before he used it that Goku could pick up and then use IT to teleport away.

And even if Goku was trapped in Chrono Stasis he could still just protect himself with a ki shield. How would Julius make pure energy/aura age?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BreakFlame (Oct 17, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Julius's attack speed is not instant. As I just said there was an indication/tell Julius was about to use Chrono Stasis before he used it that Goku could pick up and then use IT to teleport away.
> 
> And even if Goku was trapped in Chrono Stasis he could still just protect himself with a ki shield. How would Julius make pure energy/aura age?



Goku would have to use IT before a faster opponent got off his own move. Goku's teleportation cast isn't instant either, he has to concentrate.

And he can't do anything inside the chrono field.


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## xenos5 (Oct 17, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> Goku would have to use IT before a faster opponent got off his own move. Goku's teleportation cast isn't instant either, he has to concentrate.



Goku doesn't have to use IT before Julian can think to use Chrono Stasis. If Goku teleports before Julian charges the spell fully (and it does require some charge considering the glow in the panel before the attack) he won't need to have faster reactions. Goku can gather the concentration needed for IT before an attack way faster than 1st form Frieza's sub relativistic death ball can reach him when it's right in his face  so he can do it in less than a second. 



BreakFlame said:


> And he can't do anything inside the chrono field.



How would being paralyzed stop him from using a ki shield? Even if he can't move his body that should not stop him from using ki.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

It stopped people from using their magic and traps them in a time field, something that Goku cant resist. He cant put up a barrier if he is frozen in time

Goku isnt going to be teleporting before Julius casts either Chrono Stasis, or one of his aging balls that has no charge time or buildup whatsoever. Just because there is a buildup to use Chrono Stasis doesnt mean that Goku will be able to sense it and think to use IT before it gets him. Goku isnt used to dealing with attacks that dont have travel time like ki blasts


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## BreakFlame (Oct 17, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Goku doesn't have to use IT before Julian can think to use Chrono Stasis. If Goku teleports before Julian charges the spell fully (and it does require some charge considering the glow in the panel before the attack) he won't need to have faster reactions. Goku can gather the concentration needed for IT before an attack way faster than 1st form Frieza's sub relativistic death ball can reach him when it's right in his face  so he can do it in less than a second.



That charge time was too fast for people who can keep up with Aster (the guy who cuts down LS attacks) to react to. Goku is slower than those people, and at least one had attacks that didn't require charging and yet he couldn't do anything.



xenos5 said:


> How would being paralyzed stop him from using a ki shield? Even if he can't move his body that should not stop him from using ki.



It's a time stop. The characters in BC don't need to move to cast magic, and yet the stasis rendered them powerless.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> That charge time was too fast for people who can keep up with Aster (the guy who cuts down LS attacks) to react to. Goku is slower than those people, and at least one had attacks that didn't require charging and yet he couldn't do anything.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a time stop. The characters in BC don't need to move to cast magic, and yet the stasis rendered them powerless.


this was actually before Aster got Ki sensing and got LS reactions, so those guys dont get that. They did blitz Aster and another dude with their magic though, while Julius could dance through it like nothing.

They should be close to sub-rel or rela though considering their power and standing in-verse


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## BreakFlame (Oct 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> this was actually before Aster got Ki sensing and got LS reactions, so those guys dont get that. They did blitz Aster and another dude with their magic though, while Julius could dance through it like nothing.
> 
> They should be close to sub-rel or rela though considering their power and standing in-verse



One of those guys was the beast boy who trashes Aster later on.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> One of those guys was the beast boy who trashes Aster later on.


wait what? Vet the beast magic dude? Or the teleporter guy who Aster beat up?


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## BreakFlame (Oct 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> wait what? Vet the beast magic dude? Or the teleporter guy who Aster beat up?



The beast guy who broke Aster's arm before he shanked him (I loved that fight). But the guys who later rescue Licht from Yami and Aster are in the cave when Julius basically wipes the floor with them.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 17, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Wait... Aster got LS reactions? The way I saw it Aster couldn't actually react to the attacks and had to use ki sensing to predict where the attacks would be even if they came at him from an unseen angle and start dodging pre-emptively.


You just basically said in a roundabout way that Aster has LS reactions. He can sense and dodge attacks that are LS, precog or not still gives him LS reactions 


BreakFlame said:


> The beast guy who broke Aster's arm before he shanked him (I loved that fight). But the guys who later rescue Licht from Yami and Aster are in the cave when Julius basically wipes the floor with them.


No the 3 super elite guys arent in the cave with Julius. We dont meet them till later when they rescue Licht. Julius has never fought any of them


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## xenos5 (Oct 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> You just basically said in a roundabout way that Aster has LS reactions. He can sense and dodge attacks that are LS, precog or not still gives him LS reactions



Does Spidey get LS reactions because he senses that a laser is about to be fired and aim dodges it beforehand with his spidey sense? I see this in sort of the same way. 



OneSimpleAnime said:


> No the 3 super elite guys arent in the cave with Julius. We dont meet them till later when they rescue Licht. Julius has never fought any of them



Well going back to that previous post you made if the characters who failed to react to (or possibly failed to interpret) Julius's tell that he was about to attack are just close to sub-rel like you said it should be within the realm of possibility for Goku to use IT the moment he sees the tell because he's extremely far above the sub-relativistic + 1st form Frieza.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BreakFlame (Oct 17, 2016)

Julius is still fast enough to tag a fleeing LS opponent with an attack that can kill Goku. He doesn't even need Chrono Stasis.


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## xenos5 (Oct 18, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> Julius is still fast enough to tag a fleeing LS opponent with an attack that can kill Goku. He doesn't even need Chrono Stasis.



Goku could use IT to teleport away the instant he creates the attack before he can throw it. And it could be argued the only reason white night eye leader was tagged was because he took the time to transport some of his comrades trapped in the chrono stasis.


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## BreakFlame (Oct 18, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Goku could use IT to teleport away the instant he creates the attack before he can throw it. And it could be argued the only reason white night eye leader was tagged was because he took the time to transport some of his comrades trapped in the chrono stasis.



No he couldn't, unless he now has relativistic to LS reactions. Julius is faster than him by a large margin and has attacks that can bypass his durability.


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## xenos5 (Oct 18, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> No he couldn't, unless he now has relativistic to LS reactions. Julius is faster than him by a large margin and has attacks that can bypass his durability.



Julius doesn't create the attack and throw it one action. If he holds it for at least a second before throwing it Goku can IT away.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BreakFlame (Oct 18, 2016)

He used that attack to hit Licht, who is far faster than Goku while Licht was fleeing. Goku isn't getting away with IT.


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## DarkSlayerZero (Oct 18, 2016)

Here's Licht's ancient arm.


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## xenos5 (Oct 18, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> He used that attack to hit Licht, who is far faster than Goku while Licht was fleeing. Goku isn't getting away with IT.



Uh what? What's your proof that guy is licht? And keep in mind the guy was focusing on saving some of the comrades Julius had trapped in Chrono Stasis if only for a second before he really started fleeing. 

Even if Julius hit him while he was fleeing and not at the time when he was trying to save his comrades can you prove it takes less than a second to create the attack in the first place? The speed of the attack/time it takes the attack to cross a certain distance after it's thrown and the time it takes to create the attack are two separate things. Goku's shown to gain the focus necessary for IT and teleport with IT in under a second in that scan I showed earlier when he had a sub relativistic + attack in his face.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## bitethedust (Oct 18, 2016)

So manga SSJ Goku loses, how about anime SSJ Goku ?


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## Toaa (Oct 18, 2016)

What about the fact licht couldnt dodge his mirrored attack going at light speed?


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## neoacacia (Oct 18, 2016)

When people are being pedantic and nit picky because their favored char loses the matchup.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## MysticBlade (Oct 18, 2016)

yujiro said:


> What about the fact licht couldnt dodge his mirrored attack going at light speed?



licht mean to take that hit head on, that attack was meant to destroy the entire area.
he got stunned by seeing Gauche. that made him not react or dodge, so he took the attack on.

i don't see where the argument is being made here, julius is far faster than goku.
actually, i'm pretty surprised that julius with his weaker end moves can accelerate time to the point in turning someone into dust. that was something i wasn't aware off.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 18, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Uh what? What's your proof that guy is licht? And keep in mind the guy was focusing on saving some of the comrades Julius had trapped in Chrono Stasis if only for a second before he really started fleeing.


because its Licht's flashback, no one else uses light magic that blinded Julius, and Licht has that same arm covered.

also we dont even see Julius move when he fires off his attack at Licht, he doesnt do it right away cause he cant see well through the blinding light. He was stopped for a good few moments at least before he fired off his time blast, more than enough time for a dude who is LS to rescue his ho's


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## xenos5 (Oct 18, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> because its Licht's flashback, no one else uses light magic that blinded Julius, and Licht has that same arm covered.
> 
> also we dont even see Julius move when he fires off his attack at Licht, he doesnt do it right away cause he cant see well through the blinding light. He was stopped for a good few moments at least before he fired off his time blast, *more than enough time for a dude who is LS to rescue his ho's*



That would be true if his movement speed was the same as his reaction speed. However that doesn't have much substantiating it and Licht could possibly have moved his comrades with the light he enveloped them in. Not physically. 

And in that case he would be stationary for the entire time to keep blinding Julius while trying to save his comrades and it'd be easier to hit him.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 18, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> That would be true if his movement speed was the same as his reaction speed. However that doesn't have much substantiating it and Licht could possibly have moved his comrades with the light he enveloped them in. Not physically.
> 
> And in that case he would be stationary for the entire time to keep blinding Julius while trying to save his comrades and it'd be easier to hit him.


Licht is LS in movement and reactions. He moves using his light magic and can control it


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## BreakFlame (Oct 18, 2016)

Good lord, if you stretch any further you'll dislocate your arm.

Julius is significantly faster and has attacks that can kill Goku. He wins.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## xenos5 (Oct 18, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Licht is LS in movement and reactions. He moves using his light magic and can control it



Scans of this? 

Regardless in this specific instance what we see is the light completely enveloping and transporting those in chrono stasis. If Licht physically moved each one while "moving using his light magic" why was one of the white night eye members left behind? He should've been able to gather them all easily.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 18, 2016)

That only makes Julius tagging him more impressive. If Licht didnt even have to move and could see Julius' attack coming, yet still couldnt totally dodge it.



this chapter has one of Licht's underlings moving at lightspeed and Yami even says "This guy moves at lightspeed too?"


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## xenos5 (Oct 18, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> That only makes Julius tagging him more impressive. If *Licht didnt even have to move and could see Julius' attack coming, yet still couldnt totally dodge it.*



?

His attention was diverted on saving his comrades. That's the reason i've been saying he could barely move and couldn't dodge it. 



OneSimpleAnime said:


> this chapter has one of Licht's underlings moving at lightspeed and Yami even says "This guy moves at lightspeed too?"



So Licht himself is slower than one of his underlings? 

Gauche: "I couldn't see it... but that was light speed. There's no way he could dodge that, right?" 

Now I know that for some unknown reason Licht says he couldn't risk hurting Gauche but that would in no way stop him from dodging the attack.


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## MysticBlade (Oct 18, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> His attention was diverted on saving his comrades. That's the reason i've been saying he could barely move and couldn't dodge it.



he couldn't dodge period.

julius had them captured, his objective is to save them.
he used blinding light to freeze up julius because he knows he couldn't do it no other way. still end up getting tagged in the process.

even afterwards he said he needs to become more stronger to take him on.

btw julius is > yami who's> white eyes lower fighters.
among them is a guy who can move at the speed of light. yami still didn't had any problems dodging him then.



xenos5 said:


> Now I know that for some unknown reason Licht says he couldn't risk hurting Gauche but that would in no way stop him from dodging the attack.



dude, he noticed gauche at the last moment after the attack was reflected back. that's what caused him not to evade.


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## xenos5 (Oct 18, 2016)

MysticBlade said:


> he couldn't dodge period.
> 
> julius had them captured, his objective is to save them.
> he used blinding light to freeze up julius because he knows he couldn't do it no other way. still end up getting tagged in the process.
> ...



He wasn't escaping while he was enveloping his comrades with light magic. He had to stay still for that (which can be seen as his obscured motionless figure emanates the blinding light) which gave Julius an opportunity to hit him but Licht was still able to react at the last second and just escape with the attack grazing him. 



MysticBlade said:


> dude, he noticed gauche at the last moment after the attack was reflected back. that's what caused him not to evade.



How does that make any sense? Gauche would not be harmed if he evaded. The attack was going in the opposite direction of Gauche. And how would he only notice Gauche AFTER the mirror goes up and Gauche is hidden from view?


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## MysticBlade (Oct 19, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> He wasn't escaping while he was enveloping his comrades with light magic. He had to stay still for that (which can be seen as his obscured motionless figure emanates the blinding light) which gave Julius an opportunity to hit him but Licht was still able to react at the last second and just escape with the attack grazing him.



why are you arguing against something this simple.
funny thing is and i believ you missed it on purpose, licht said he needs to become more powerful in order to combat julius. julius wasn't even going all out.
the light trick was a diversion to rescue most of his allies, the last one was probably closer to julius and he got fuck trying to rescue him and got grazed. 


julius is > licht >liar who uses copy magic that allows him to travel at light speed.

by default, julius is faster.



xenos5 said:


> How does that make any sense? Gauche would not be harmed if he evaded. The attack was going in the opposite direction of Gauche. And how would he only notice Gauche AFTER the mirror goes up and Gauche is hidden from view?



really? are you seriously asking me why? this is shonen, nothing really makes sense when talking pis. gauche appeared, he got stunned. nevermind he said before that attack would've wipe that area off the map so taking it head on would be the wises thing to do in case of not allowing gauche to be hurt.


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## xenos5 (Oct 19, 2016)

MysticBlade said:


> why are you arguing against something this simple.
> funny thing is and i believ you missed it on purpose, licht said he needs to become more powerful in order to combat julius. julius wasn't even going all out.
> the light trick was a diversion to rescue most of his allies, *the last one was probably closer to julius and he got fuck trying to rescue him and got grazed.*
> 
> ...



Why did we see the figure of Licht standing still in one specific area if he had went to personally rescue his trapped allies? It still seems like he just had his light magic envelop his comrades and he was tagged because his focus was on that and not because he failed to react. 



MysticBlade said:


> really? are you seriously asking me why? this is shonen, nothing really makes sense when talking pis. gauche appeared, he got stunned. nevermind *he said before that attack would've wipe that area off the map* so taking it head on would be the wises thing to do in case of not allowing gauche to be hurt.



Where'd he say that? I looked back through the chapter and didn't see that. PIS is a cop out excuse in this case and if you want to go that route I might as well just say Yami's statement was hyperbole.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Oct 19, 2016)

Which SSJ Goku is this, Z or Super?

Z loses badly, Super obliterates.


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## MysticBlade (Oct 19, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Where'd he say that? I looked back through the chapter and didn't see that. PIS is a cop out excuse in this case and if you want to go that route I might as well just say Yami's statement was hyperbole.



got a little mixed up with vet, the AOE alone was to great to dodge.
yami a dude who has light speed reaction and he tagged a dude moving at the speed of light had to build up his defenses to block it, that wasn't a attack you can just avoid.

again licht said he couldn't bring himself to hurt gauche, which again shows he could've reverse that attack but he took it head on instead.



Perpetrator Rex said:


> Which SSJ Goku is this, Z or Super?



Z.


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## neoacacia (Oct 19, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> Good lord, if you stretch any further you'll dislocate your arm.
> 
> Julius is significantly faster and has attacks that can kill Goku. He wins.


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## xenos5 (Oct 19, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Too bad that all this doesnt matter because A) Yami stated that Licht's underling also moves at the speed of light, which means that Licht does move at LS and B) Seeing Gauche stunned him so he didn't have time to dodge the attack



It Licht's magic itself was debunked as being light speed entirely or it being only LS with his most powerful attack than we'd have to rely entirely on Yami's statment by itself. By itself it isn't nearly as convincing and can be seen as hyperbolic.

Him being stunned stopping him from dodging it is only a possibility. He doesn't seem to freeze up every time he's surprised in other instances from what I remember. But considering how much Licht had bragged about the speed of the attack him just being flat out unable to dodge it seems more likely.


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## MysticBlade (Oct 19, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> It Licht's magic itself was debunked as being light speed entirely or it being only LS with his most powerful attack than we'd have to rely entirely on Yami's statment by itself. By itself it isn't nearly as convincing and can be seen as hyperbolic.



licht's light refracts like regular light, it was stated as being LS.
yami stated liar can move at the speed of light too, meaning licht is the other he's basing LS movement on by saying too.

everything's concrete.

your nitpicking is disgusting honestly, licht not avoiding is simply him being stunned by seeing gauchi. we the readers clearly see that as PIS. him not avoiding doesn't disproves anything, i could've brought up the point that it could be that the spell took a long time to charge up and he was stuck in that position and can't move until the spell is finished or seeing how it was his most powerful spell it left him without much energy to evade.

all of those could be valid points but we the readers we given the surprise motherfuker situation.


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## Alita (Oct 20, 2016)

Can someone post scans of Julius moving at light speed and using durability ignoring hax? I'm up to date on the manga and don't remember any of that happening.


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## White T Poison (Oct 20, 2016)

Alita54 said:


> Can someone post scans of Julius moving at light speed and using durability ignoring hax? I'm up to date on the manga and don't remember any of that happening.


too lazy atm, but it happens when julius saves asta in that cave. The durability ignoring stuff comes from his fight with fodder when he use his time magic to age people to dust. he also grased lichts arm with said attack which  licht goes on to say it's unhealable. Then then there's chrono stasis whihch traps you in a split second loop. The light speed stuff mainly comes from scaling from yami and gauche


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## MysticBlade (Oct 20, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> why don't you post other instances in Black Clover where a character doesn't dodge an attack just because they're stunned like you claim?





when licht get surprise he tends to stop moving.



in the case with yami, when he saw his attacks being absorbed by yami, he paused and was hit by yami.

not only did his most powerful spell got reflected back, gauche appearing shocked him.
so he just didn't move. case closed.


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## MysticBlade (Oct 20, 2016)

Alita54 said:


> Okay. I'm still very skeptical about Julius being light speed though since those beams licht used didn't behave like actual light since they bent and curved from what I remember. We don't accept attacks being light speed solely based on statements other wise the whole HST would be light speed.



they bend and curve because yami has darkness magic that attract light or bend it.

also, julius is > licht.
even licht said so himself.


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## shade0180 (Oct 20, 2016)

Alita54 said:


> Okay. I'm still very skeptical about Julius being light speed though since those beams licht used didn't behave like actual light since they bent and curved from what I remember.



Light can bend or curve if there are outside sources that affect it. Light can bend with High Gravity, contact with Black hole, prism, and other shit.

 That's what Yami's ability is doing to it. It isn't the guy who was firing the light attack bending it to his will. I just had a post explaining this earlier.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 20, 2016)

Alita54 said:


> Okay. I'm still very skeptical about Julius being light speed though since those beams licht used didn't behave like actual light since they bent and curved from what I remember. We don't accept attacks being light speed solely based on statements other wise the whole HST would be light speed.


plus its said that he and liar can move at lightspeed and light magic is the fastest magic in existence according to Licht, and I believe Julius and Yami also say the same thing


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## DarkSlayerZero (Oct 20, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Light can bend or curve if there are outside sources that affect it. Light can bend with High Gravity, *contact with Black hole*, prism, and other shit.
> 
> That's what Yami's ability is doing to it. It isn't the guy who was firing the light attack bending it to his will. I just had a post explaining this earlier.



Yami even uses a black hole ish technique during the battle.


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## White T Poison (Oct 21, 2016)

Alita54 said:


> Okay. I'm still very skeptical about Julius being light speed though since those beams licht used didn't behave like actual light since they bent and curved from what I remember. We don't accept attacks being light speed solely based on statements other wise the whole HST would be light speed.


 adding on to what everyone else just said, Gauche's light can be refracted as shown when he is fighting sally, julius scales way above him so he shiuld be abke to react to gauche;s attacks also.


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## Alita (Oct 22, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Light can bend or curve if there are outside sources that affect it. Light can bend with High Gravity, contact with Black hole, prism, and other shit.
> 
> That's what Yami's ability is doing to it. It isn't the guy who was firing the light attack bending it to his will. I just had a post explaining this earlier.





His light is bending here of his own free will before yami used any attack.



Also here after rocks fell on yami the light was still bent.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lucy75 (Oct 22, 2016)

Last I checked we don't treat magic based speed as real life speed and it's obvious Lict's light is magic based. Otherwise someone like Laxus from FT would be lightning speed since that's his element and he can even transform into it. There are even instances where his light bends without yami affecting it.


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## xenos5 (Oct 22, 2016)

Alita54 said:


> His light is bending here of his own free will before yami used any attack.
> 
> 
> 
> Also here after rocks fell on yami the light was still bent.



Really nice point. I had to take a break from this thread because I was on my way back from a trip and wanted to respond with my computer rather than my phone. Thanks for holding down the fort for me. I think this evidence does show very well that Licht's light magic isn't as perfectly comparable to real light as they'd like to believe.


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## BreakFlame (Oct 22, 2016)

That's a different spell. He basically creates a laser whip. It's pretty explicitly a different spell than the ones that were moving at LS.


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## BreakFlame (Oct 22, 2016)

We have multiple statements from characters saying it moves at the speed of light, constant emphasis on its speed, it bounces of of mirrors and gets distorted by gravity.

You have a single spell in which light works differently. And no evidence its any different from the dozens of other construct spells that alter an elemental force into something like a sword or a boat or whatever.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 22, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> And how would Yami know the actual speed of light? His statement isn't the same as word of god either.


A seasoned fighter, with magic that is the opposite of light and sensing that lets him know where things are and react to them akin to spider sense, should know at least the general speed of something.


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## xenos5 (Oct 22, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> We have multiple statements from characters saying it moves at the speed of light, constant emphasis on its speed, it bounces of of mirrors and gets distorted by gravity.
> 
> You have a single spell in which light works differently. And no evidence its any different from the dozens of other construct spells that alter an elemental force into something like a sword or a boat or whatever.



Single? No. Three different spells. The magic beams of light, the cross spear light magic attacks, and the light whip. The first two shatter when being attacked and I don't need to explain the third. 

And only Licht's best attack is shown bouncing off mirrors. I doubt Yami's magic black hole only distorts light. Light Magic users are exceedingly rare so he'd have no need to create an attack that would only distort and absorb them. 

If you have multiple statements from different characters why don't you link all of the pages with them? The one i've been hearing repeated here is just the one Yami made about Liar.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 22, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Single? No. Three different spells. The magic beams of light, the cross spear light magic attacks, and the light whip. The first two shatter when being attacked and I don't need to explain the third.
> 
> And only Licht's best attack is shown bouncing off mirrors. I doubt Yami's magic black hole only distorts light. Light Magic users are exceedingly rare so he'd have no need to create an attack that would only distort and absorb them.
> 
> If you have multiple statements from different characters why don't you link all of the pages with them? The one i've been hearing repeated here is just the one Yami made about Liar.


Gauche is far far weaker than Licht and uses mirrors and reflects shit off them, IIRC no character has dodged attacks from him unless it was a gag moment with Aster.

Yami's magic is the opposite of Licht's, his magic is a natural counter to Licht's, they've both said it. Light magic is fast, dark magic is incredibly slow, thats why Yami only uses it on his sword.


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## xenos5 (Oct 22, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> A seasoned fighter, with magic that is the opposite of light and sensing that lets him know where things are and react to them akin to spider sense, should know at least the general speed of something.



Yami's dark magic isn't the equivalent of actual darkness either (many of the magics in the Black Clover verse aren't equivalents to their natural forms). IRL shadows don't do spatial slicing hax. 

Being able to predict an attack doesn't mean you can know the exact speed of it and can compare it to something much faster that you've never been shown dodging (Nothing indicates Yami trained by having sun rays peak through a building and trying to dodge those as they came down, and Yami wouldn't be in danger from normal sun rays so he'd have no reason to try to dodge them either).


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 22, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Yami's dark magic isn't the equivalent of actual darkness either (many of the magics in the Black Clover verse aren't equivalents to their natural forms). IRL shadows don't do spatial slicing hax.
> 
> Being able to predict an attack doesn't mean you can know the exact speed of it and can compare it to something much faster that you've never been shown dodging (Nothing indicates Yami trained by having sun rays peak through a building and trying to dodge those as they came down, and Yami wouldn't be in danger from normal sun rays so he'd have no reason to try to dodge them either).


Yami's magic is still the opposite of Licht's and one of its main points is that its slow af compared to most magic.

can you provide evidence of why Yami's and Licht's statements are hyperbole? They are top tiers in the verse and have encountered hundreds and hundreds of mages in their lives and live in a kingdom all about magic.


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## xenos5 (Oct 22, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Gauche is far far weaker than Licht and uses mirrors and reflects shit off them, IIRC no character has dodged attacks from him unless it was a gag moment with Aster.
> 
> Yami's magic is the opposite of Licht's, his magic is a natural counter to Licht's, they've both said it. Light magic is fast, dark magic is incredibly slow, thats why Yami only uses it on his sword.



Gauche can react to his own attacks and redirect them with many mirrors. He was completely unable to react to the first attack Licht used on him. He was only able to deflect Licht's final attack due to a powerup from having many people give him their mana.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 22, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Gauche can react to his own attacks and redirect them with many mirrors. He was completely unable to react to the first attack Licht used on him. He was only able to deflect Licht's final attack due to a powerup from having many people give him their mana.


Gauche aims his attacks and makes mirrors before he fires them. He makes the pathway for them to follow.


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## xenos5 (Oct 22, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yami's magic is still the opposite of Licht's and one of its main points is that its slow af compared to most magic.
> 
> can you provide evidence of why Yami's and Licht's statements are hyperbole? *They are top tiers in the verse and have encountered hundreds and hundreds of mages in their lives and live in a kingdom all about magic.*



That does nothing to show they have complete knowledge of the real life phenomenons their magics are based on. And Licht never refers to his light magic as actual light, or altered light. Just light magic. Him making a statement about it being blindingly fast isn't the same as calling it actual light.


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## xenos5 (Oct 22, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Gauche aims his attacks and makes mirrors before he fires them. He makes the pathway for them to follow.



Hmmm... that's plausible but it's also plausible that Gauche makes the mirrors after starting the initial beam. We never see a bunch of mirrors being created and then Gauche initiating the attack so it's hard to tell. We just see the aftereffect of him starting the attack. Might be clearer when the anime comes out.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 23, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Hmmm... that's plausible but it's also plausible that Gauche makes the mirrors after starting the initial beam. We never see a bunch of mirrors being created and then Gauche initiating the attack so it's hard to tell. We just see the aftereffect of him starting the attack. Might be clearer when the anime comes out.


anime is non-canon and hes always shown having the mirrors in place before using his attacks


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> anime is non-canon and hes always shown having the mirrors in place before using his attacks



Can you find a scan/page showing this?


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## DarkSlayerZero (Oct 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Can you find a scan/page showing this?


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

DarkSlayerZero said:


>



I already knew he needed to make a mirror to produce the initial beam. What I wanted a scan of was many mirrors being already produced mid-air before Gauche has the beam reflect off of them to show that he didn't make them after already having fired the beam.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I already knew he needed to make a mirror to produce the initial beam. What I wanted a scan of was many mirrors being already produced mid-air before Gauche has the beam reflect off of them to show that he didn't make them after already having fired the beam.


Well we know that Gauche cant react to Licht's attacks, they are too fast for him. So he has to create the mirrors in advance, otherwise he couldnt make them reflect off his mirrors.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> It's chapter 36, page 7. Don't think it's the Viz trans but if you have access to the Viz trans you can try to find it for that page.


i can try looking for ViZ scans but i dont know how successful ill be tbh


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Im pretty sure speed and the actual AOE of the attack were emphasized. Its too fast to avoid _*because *_it has a huge AOE because he also mentions the last spell he used



I interpreted it as it's too fast and too huge to avoid. In the statement he also seems to make the distinction that's its got huge AOE separately with an "and". 

"It's too fast to avoid... and unlike the last spell I used, this one's area of effect is ridiculous!"


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> i can try looking for ViZ scans but i dont know how successful ill be tbh



It's alright if you can't find it. This has been a pretty fun debate. I can set that evidence aside if it can't be verified atm.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> It's alright if you can't find it. This has been a pretty fun debate. I can set that evidence aside if it can't be verified atm.


yea i couldnt find shit, and Volume 4 hasnt even been released by ViZ yet so


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I interpreted it as it's too fast and too huge to avoid. In the statement he also seems to make the distinction that's its got huge AOE separately with an "and".
> 
> "It's too fast to avoid... and unlike the last spell I used, this one's area of effect is ridiculous!"


its either FTL then, which would be weird, or its just the AoE + speed means its unavoidable. Yami stated that Liar moves at lightspeed and Licht does too. We might just need to wait for ViZ scans to come out before we can really get a final say on all this tbh


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> its either FTL then, which would be weird, or its just the AoE + speed means its unavoidable.



Or it's just faster than his other light magic attacks which are fast to some unknown degree. 



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yami stated that Liar moves at lightspeed and Licht does too.



I don't remember Licht making any statements comparing his light magic's speed to natural light or anyone else's speed to natural light. Just that one statement from Yami. 



OneSimpleAnime said:


> We might just need to wait for ViZ scans to come out before we can really get a final say on all this tbh



Seems like it.


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## xenos5 (Feb 7, 2017)

DarkSlayerZero said:


>



Alright. But still that could be referring to light magic speed. And I had arguments against it even before I found out "light speed" wasn't said in a different translation of the page.


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## DarkSlayerZero (Feb 7, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Alright. But still that could be referring to light magic speed. And I had arguments against it even before I found out "light speed" wasn't said in a different translation of the page.



Well if you want any more scans relating to the matter just let me know.


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## xenos5 (Feb 7, 2017)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> Well if you want any more scans relating to the matter just let me know.



Thanks. If I remember anything else like that I might just do that.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 8, 2017)

i mean he still clearly states that he moves at Light speed, and if what you said about light magic having various speeds, then the statement is pointless.

i still back top tiers having LS reactions or at least relativistic

Reactions: Like 1


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## DarkSlayerZero (Feb 8, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> i mean he still clearly states that he moves at Light speed, and if what you said about light magic having various speeds, then the statement is pointless.
> 
> *i still back top tiers having LS reactions or at least relativistic*



I agree.


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## Jamrock (Feb 8, 2017)

I assumed Black Clover top tiers would have light speed-relativstic reactions anyway via scaling from Gauche. I was always under the impression that as long as light based attacks acted like real light, then said attacks where light speed. Since Gauche's light attacks can be reflected/refracted, wouldn't that make it real light?


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## MysticBlade (Feb 8, 2017)

light magic speed is light speed.
yami made a comparison between the two.
Gauche can reflect and refract light off his mirrors, which are light speed.
the vague term of light being faster than his just means it's FTL to a unknown degree.
lair can *move* at light speed just like licht.
yami still reacted to lair and gave him a cut from a distance.
yami can't move at light speed, he can react via ki sensing and his combat attacks can travel at those speeds.


these are godamn top tiers doing this shit.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## Blade (Feb 8, 2017)

the top tiers have easily light speed reactions/attack speed

hilariously enough, it was explained several times and with legit facts

Yami vs Licht is the battle that proved that


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## Kaaant (Feb 9, 2017)

How far would Julius actually get in DBZ

would he clear?


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## Kaaant (Feb 9, 2017)

Pretty funny that the "successor" to Naruto already surpassed DBZ and the hst


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## OneSimpleAnime (Feb 9, 2017)

Kaaant said:


> Pretty funny that the "successor" to Naruto already surpassed DBZ and the hst


only because of hax, Julius and Yami being the most standout examples due to their speed. unless DBZ has great regen (buu and cell) they wont survive Yami, while only buu can survive Julius time hax due to being millions of years old and ageless.


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## Hazard (Feb 9, 2017)

how do you take on the ki>hax at one point here?


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## CrossTheHorizon (Feb 9, 2017)

The game said:


> how do you take on the ki>hax at one point here?



We don't? 

No hasn't been show to be able to nullify hax in BC. Its basically just energy sensing at this point.


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## xenos5 (Feb 9, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> only because of hax, Julius and Yami being the most standout examples due to their speed. unless DBZ has great regen (buu and cell) they wont survive Yami, while only buu can survive Julius time hax due to being millions of years old and ageless.



Yeah no one from the verse is doing shit to buu.


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## Kaaant (Feb 9, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> only because of hax, Julius and Yami being the most standout examples due to their speed. unless DBZ has great regen (buu and cell) they wont survive Yami, while only buu can survive Julius time hax due to being millions of years old and ageless.


Chrono stasis would still be a win here.


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## Hazard (Feb 9, 2017)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> We don't?
> 
> No hasn't been show to be able to nullify hax in BC. Its basically just energy sensing at this point.


do you think a ki shield helps?


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## CrossTheHorizon (Feb 9, 2017)

They don't have ki shields.


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## DarkSlayerZero (Feb 2, 2018)

Does anything change with this new info for Julius?


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## CrossTheHorizon (Feb 2, 2018)

OH SHIT ITS A ZOMBIE KILLITKILLITKILLITKILLIT


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## Iwandesu (Feb 2, 2018)

Die the death.
Sentence to death
Zombie thread is death.


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