# How strong is Rinnegan Sasuke?



## Tarot (Jun 30, 2015)

Ideally, Sasuke should be equal to Naruto, but the fact that he needed Biju Chakra to buff his Susanoo seems to show that he wasn't with just his Rinnegan. So how powerful is Rinnegan Sasuke?

If we put him in a gauntlet, who can beat:
1. VotE Madara
2. Hashirama
3. Rinnegan Madara (Both Eyes)
4. Jin Obito
5. Jin Madara (1-eyed)

Feel free to be generous with feats/speculative feats.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 30, 2015)

I see Rinnegan Sasuke in three ways:

1. un-mastered Rinnegan Sasuke who could only use Amenojikara and other Rinnegan powers.

2. un-mastered Rinnegan Sasuke, who couldn't use Preta Path as well, could use Amenojikara and CT. Alongside his other powers.

3. Mastered Rinnegan Sasuke. Sasuke basically can use all the Rinnegan's powers (at least, the jutsu Obito, Nagato and Madara showed) alongside his EMS powers.

---

I'd say Sasuke without Rinnegan mastery he'd struggle with Madara, VotE. He'd just be EMS Sasuke with stronger jutsu (due to Rinnegan) and an Amenojikara. With a little more mastery, he'd have two other jutsu... but Madara can destroy CT and Sasuke can't use offensive jutsu with Preta Path active, with his level of mastery.

Amenojikara can work if Sasuke can get Madara out of Susanoo with Amenojikara, but that requires getting close to Madara. Or he could get close enough, get behind Madara using Amenojikara then hit him with Chidori.

Up till about Rinnegan Madara, he might be able to beat Hashirama and EMS Madara with the Amenojikara surprise attack, but that assumed their abilities and sensory abilities don't help them counter.

Rinnegan Madara just wrecks Sasuke. Two Rinnegan, alongside its lesser abilities like PS is super overkill when you count Mokuton.

Though, with Rinnegan mastery, I can see Sasuke beating all three. However he would struggle with Rinnegan Madara, his only real trump card would be Amenojikara, whereas Madara will have Mokuton. However Madara nullified all, but one, Mokuton jutsu with Preta Path... but nothing stops Madara from using that particular Mokuton. 

If you go beyond Rinnegan Madara, he could probably take Jinchuriki Obito. However, if Jinchuriki Madara isn't held back, then he'd probably beat Sasuke.
Gedo Dama, plus Rinnegan (which should give him at least Nagato-Obito level mastery, likely a bit above, with the Rinnegan) with its lesser forms alongside Mokuton... that will just overwhelm Sasuke.

Tbh, I think Rinnegan Sasuke would have a harder time against Rinnegan Madara more than Juubito. More so if Rinnegan Madara has SM.


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## ARGUS (Jun 30, 2015)

Sasuke defeats all of them, rather easily i might add, 

Sasuke with the BPS is more or less on par with Rikudo Naruto, and DR JJ Madara, 
without the BPS, the strongest he beats is Shinjuu absorbed Jin madara,


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 1, 2015)

He's nine moons strong and growing.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 1, 2015)

i'm inclined to say Sasuke clears it all. Rinnegan Sasuke is not to be messed with to say the least.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 1, 2015)

Yin-Seal Sasuke (bijuu or not) can kill all of them. He simultaneously put all 9 bijuu in instantaneous Genjutsu and manifested Chibaku Tensei with a single seal. 

Current Sasuke is a tidbit less powerful, at least from what he's shown.

There's a chance, it being more probable than not, that Current Sasuke has completely mastered all 7 paths of the Rinnegan along with his obvious space time ability- which would make him stronger than his prime shippuuden counterpart (minus bijuu of course) regardless of lacking that Yin-seal power boost. Then we also have to consider the fact that Sasuke's Rinnegan is obviously unique and could harbor something more special than his space shifting technique.

He was holding back a great deal in his most recent battle, hardly utilizing PS and only shifting once with the Rinnegan as a means of escape- choosing to use Kenjutsu (Katana) and Great Fireball Technique as a finisher. We'd expect a serious Sasuke to instantly shift and attempt a finish with a close quarter Chidori via his great speed or to simply end it in a PS Slash- aside from what else he can do with the Rinnegan and his PS (Lightning variants). Naruto also wasn't doing shit really.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 1, 2015)

Sasuke would literally destroy them all even w/o the Bijuu. Shouldn't even be debatable if you've read the Manga.


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## Jagger (Jul 1, 2015)

The only individual I see Sasuke having problems with are the Juubi Jinchuuriki, beyond that, EMS Madara and Hashirama are nothing but a joke to his power level.


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## Tarot (Jul 1, 2015)

Hype-wise I believe Sasuke can take these characters, but I was more wondering if he has shown the any specific abilities feat-wise to prove it.


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## Kyu (Jul 1, 2015)

Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke should defeat all of them to be frank. The only adversaries presenting anything resembling a challenge are the Juubi hosts. 

He's equal to Naruto w/ all nine tailed beasts fueling his Susano'o and his stats exceed any incarnation of Madara. W/o biju prep, he can still give a non-bloodlusted Naruto problems in a fight via preta fuckery.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 1, 2015)

loses only to Juudara after a tough match.


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## Kushina san (Jul 1, 2015)

Sasuke with those power ups donated gratis he would beat almost anyone.

Kishi has ruined the manga with these powers trash.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jul 1, 2015)

He's a stupid ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) character made by Kishi to spite all the true fans. Stupid free powerups out of nowhere makes him bs just like Gayruto.


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## The Undying (Jul 1, 2015)

I'm going to be a little controversial here and say that a fully powered Hashirama can put up a decent fight, provided that he's able to sense a surprise Amenotejikara follow-up attack with his Senjutsu. Sasuke still wins without much difficulty, but I don't personally think it would be as extremely one-sided as people typically like to imply when it comes to his Rikudou incarnation.

Gaiden Sasuke is a little more interesting to work with and could arguably lose to VOTE Madara if he's not careful in my opinion.


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## Bonly (Jul 1, 2015)

I'd say Rinnegan Sasuke is right below Naruto. I know Kishi tried his best to portray them as equals but he really fucked up during the war arc and made Naruto seem just a tad bit stronger. As for who he beats, Sasuke will likely beat VoTE Madara,Hashi, and Rinnegan Madara more times then not but he'd likely lose to the two Juubi Jins more times then not.


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## ueharakk (Jul 2, 2015)

The only one he could arguably not beat is juubidara if we assume he's literally immortal after absorbing the shinjuu.


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## ShadoLord (Jul 2, 2015)

Rinnegan Sasuke was equal to 6path Naruto in power. He had more hax while Naruto has more raw power.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 2, 2015)

Bonly said:


> I'd say Rinnegan Sasuke is right below Naruto. I know Kishi tried his best to portray them as equals but he really fucked up during the war arc and made Naruto seem just a tad bit stronger. As for who he beats, Sasuke will likely beat VoTE Madara,Hashi, and Rinnegan Madara more times then* not but he'd likely lose to the two Juubi Jins more times then not.*



Sasuke losing to Obito is nothing but a bad joke.



The Undying said:


> I'm going to be a little controversial here and say that a fully powered Hashirama can put up a decent fight, provided that he's able to sense a surprise Amenotejikara follow-up attack with his Senjutsu. Sasuke still wins without much difficulty, but I don't personally think it would be as extremely one-sided as people typically like to imply when it comes to his Rikudou incarnation.
> 
> *Gaiden Sasuke is a little more interesting to work with and could arguably lose to VOTE Madara if he's not careful in my opinion.*



You have to be kidding me. Why would you even try to suggest the possibility of him reacting to Amenotejikara when RSM Naruto and JJ Madara had issues with it? Unless you believe that Hashirama>JJ Madara in reaction speed, Hashirama gets a Chidori shoved through his heart or he gets bisected like Madara did. It's extremely one sided. Feats will tell you that.

Wow. Not even sure if serious, especially considering that Sasuke in The Last is much stronger than he was in the Manga, and Gaiden Sasuke is at the very least on par with The Last Sasuke, but most likely he's much stronger than that. His poor performance was believed to be because he got weaker, but Manga debunked that when he revealed that he was gimped.

And even if he did get weaker, no reason to believe he's gotten so much weaker than his Manga self that he loses to Madara. Dude gets wrecked super low diff.



Death Arcana said:


> Hype-wise I believe Sasuke can take these characters, but I was more wondering if he has shown the any specific abilities feat-wise to prove it.



Feats is all everyone has been talking about here. Going off of Rinnegan Sasuke's feats without the Bijuu, he stomps those w/o Hagoromo's power, he low-mid diffs Obito, and he mid diffs JJ Madara unless he's really immortal, cause then he'd be outlasted.

This is probably the worst and most inaccurate post in this thread.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I see Rinnegan Sasuke in three ways:
> 
> 1. un-mastered Rinnegan Sasuke who could only use Amenojikara and other Rinnegan powers.
> 
> ...



Literally the only thing I'll agree with here.



> I'd say Sasuke without Rinnegan mastery he'd struggle with Madara, VotE. He'd just be EMS Sasuke with stronger jutsu (due to Rinnegan) and an Amenojikara. With a little more mastery, he'd have two other jutsu... but Madara can destroy CT and Sasuke can't use offensive jutsu with Preta Path active, with his level of mastery.


Not sure if serious, trolling, or just didn't/chose not to/couldn't read the Manga....

You say "just EMS Sasuke w/ stronger jutsu", while completely ignoring how strong his jutsu have gotten due to having half of Hagoromo's chakra. His boost in his jutsu's power has literally nothing to do with Rinnegan. Perfect Susanoo was shredding up CT orbs the size of the Shinju's root with one slash. PS Chidori matched RSM Naruto's Bijuu Dama. Madara's Susanoo gets obliterated with zero difficulty and he gets gutted.



> Amenojikara can work if Sasuke can get Madara out of Susanoo with Amenojikara, but that requires getting close to Madara. Or he could get close enough, get behind Madara using Amenojikara then hit him with Chidori.


Ameno isn't needed and isn't a wise course of action if Madara is in Susanoo, but if he isn't, he gets blitzed.




> Up till about Rinnegan Madara, he might be able to beat Hashirama and EMS Madara with the Amenojikara surprise attack, but that assumed their abilities and sensory abilities don't help them counter.


Wow, it's like you people ignore the fact that two people who are much faster than these two had issues reacting. What's worse is that one of these guys is a ridiculously bolstered version of EMS Madara.

They can't counter Perfect Susanoo. It's really that simple. So they die. His Rinnegan is irrelevant and not needed.




> Rinnegan Madara just wrecks Sasuke. Two Rinnegan, alongside its lesser abilities like PS is super overkill when you count Mokuton.


Laughable.

-Dual Rinnegan is irrelevant when none of Madara's abilities match up to Sasuke's PS. Not when it was slicing up CT from a Dual Rinnegan JJ Madara in canon.

-Mokuton? Laughable. The strongest Mokuton only matches PS Kurama, which is weaker than Sasuke's PS which can clash equally with a Rikudo enhanced Kurama Mode Naruto.

-PS? Laughable. Sasuke's PS's feats are FAR above Madara's. CT Meteor the size of Shinju's root DC>>>>>>>>>>>regular Mountain DC.



> Though, with Rinnegan mastery, I can see Sasuke beating all three. However he would struggle with Rinnegan Madara, his only real trump card would be Amenojikara, whereas Madara will have Mokuton. However Madara nullified all, but one, Mokuton jutsu with Preta Path... but nothing stops Madara from using that particular Mokuton.


He stomps Rinnegan Madara, Hashirama and VoTE Madara w/ or w/o Rinnegan mastery.



> If you go beyond Rinnegan Madara, he could probably take Jinchuriki Obito. However, if Jinchuriki Madara isn't held back, then he'd probably beat Sasuke.



What do you mean by held back? Give him his Gudo Dama and let him use Mokuton and he'd still lose. 



> Gedo Dama, plus Rinnegan (which should give him at least Nagato-Obito level mastery, likely a bit above, with the Rinnegan) with its lesser forms alongside Mokuton... that will just overwhelm Sasuke.



Lol. He only has one eye. You can forget about him using the Six Paths Technique, especially since he only used CT once he got his other eye back. Mokuton is useless here. Madara's shown Mokuton Jutsu are inferior to PS.

Gudo Dama? Also useless since:

1. Can't damage Sasuke's Susanoo.
2. Can't negate his Ninjutsu since he has Rikudo's power.
3. Can't take his attacks since BSM Naruto was capable of doing damage with a small BIjuu Dama.

Sasuke stomps all these guys except the JJs. The JJs don't have a chance of defeating him, but it's not a godstomp.


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## The Undying (Jul 2, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> You have to be kidding me. Why would you even try to suggest the possibility of him reacting to Amenotejikara when RSM Naruto and JJ Madara had issues with it? Unless you believe that Hashirama>JJ Madara in reaction speed, Hashirama gets a Chidori shoved through his heart or he gets bisected like Madara did. It's extremely one sided. Feats will tell you that.



I just think it comes down to a difference of opinion in regards to which specific attributes are increased after becoming a Juubi Jinchuuriki, and judging from Juubito's showings, I don't personally believe that the boost increases one's mental processing speed. Pre-Juubi Madara already had some crazy reaction feats, so I simply don't see any reason to believe that they were dramatically improved after he transformed into Juubidara.

Besides, I acknowledge that the fight would be pretty one-sided as it is. I'm just entertaining the possibility that Hashirama can manage to last for more than 5 seconds.



> Wow. Not even sure if serious, especially considering that Sasuke in The Last is much stronger than he was in the Manga, and Gaiden Sasuke is at the very least on par with The Last Sasuke, but most likely he's much stronger than that. His poor performance was believed to be because he got weaker, but Manga debunked that when he revealed that he was gimped.
> 
> And even if he did get weaker, no reason to believe he's gotten so much weaker than his Manga self that he loses to Madara. Dude gets wrecked super low diff.



I don't usually take much from The Last into account because the action scenes were in all likelihood choreographed by Studio Pierrot, but even then, I don't see Sasuke's improvement of Chidori as a definite indication that he'd become "much stronger" than his EoS incarnation. Busting up meteors isn't some new feat or anything.

Also, sorry if I wasn't being clear about Gaiden Sasuke, but the gimped version of that Sasuke is actually the one I'm referring to (with the weakened Doujutsu powers, that is). However, I do think it's a distinct possibility that Sasuke became "rusty" like Naruto because of the new peaceful era, and I also think it's entirely possible that his skills _could_ have dulled to the point that VOTE Madara would be a match. It's just speculation on my part though, so there's no need to be offended by it.

Honestly, Naruto and Sasuke's strength has been widely debated and open to interpretation from the get-go since the manga ended, with examples being the question of whether Naruto lost RSM  or the question of whether they lost their Rikudou chakra among other things. I just don't think it's quite as clear-cut as people are making it out to be, but I do respect everyone's opinion.


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## Bonly (Jul 2, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Sasuke losing to Obito is nothing but a bad joke.



Obito had the tree in him for a while so he'd be immortal which means Sasuke can't kill him. So yeah


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 2, 2015)

The Undying said:


> I just think it comes down to a difference of opinion in regards to which specific attributes are increased after becoming a Juubi Jinchuuriki, and judging from Juubito's showings, I don't personally believe that the boost increases one's mental processing speed. Pre-Juubi Madara already had some crazy reaction feats, so I simply don't see any reason to believe that they were dramatically improved after he transformed into Juubidara.
> 
> Besides, I acknowledge that the fight would be pretty one-sided as it is. I'm just entertaining the possibility that Hashirama can manage to last for more than 5 seconds.



That's what all speed boosts do man. MS Obito got blitzed by Hiraishin, but was making a fool out of Minato's Hiraishin after he got the Juubi. So yeah, it does increase speed overall, and by a drastic amount.

Then there's the fact that the fourth DB hypes RSM to be the pinnacle of the sensory ability, and then states that it lets Naruto reach a reaction speed equal or greater than Madara's. That mean the gap isn't small.






> I don't usually take much from The Last into account because the action scenes were in all likelihood choreographed by Studio Pierrot, but even then, I don't see Sasuke's improvement of Chidori as a definite indication that he'd become "much stronger" than his EoS incarnation. Busting up meteors isn't some new feat or anything.



Is it a new feat? No.

Is it a feat that surpasses any other Chidori feat Sasuke has? Yes.

So yes, that's a clear indication that he's gotten much stronger. Pierrot may have made the scenes, but it's canon.



> Also, sorry if I wasn't being clear about Gaiden Sasuke, but the gimped version of that Sasuke is actually the one I'm referring to (with the weakened Doujutsu powers, that is). However, I do think it's a distinct possibility that Sasuke became "rusty" like Naruto because of the new peaceful era, and I also think it's entirely possible that his skills _could_ have dulled to the point that VOTE Madara would be a match. It's just speculation on my part though, so there's no need to be offended by it.


If you are referring to gimped Sasuke, then if Madara gets Susanoo up before Sasuke uses Ameno, I agree that he wins. 



> Honestly, Naruto and Sasuke's strength has been widely debated and open to interpretation from the get-go since the manga ended, with examples being the question of whether Naruto lost RSM  or the question of whether they* lost their Rikudou chakra among other things*. I just don't think it's quite as clear-cut as people are making it out to be, but I do respect everyone's opinion.



A lot of claims have been made for the bold, but not once has anyone ever provided proof or convincing evidence. At least for Sasuke. At this point, I'm not surprised that people think Naruto lost RSM.

-Shows something similar to BSM in Gaiden with clear traits that only belong to RSM.
-Boruto the movie, he shows BSM, not any kind of RSM.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 2, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Obito had the tree in him for a while so he'd be immortal which means Sasuke can't kill him. So yeah



No man. Obito had the Juubi in his body. When he released it, it became the tree form of the Juubi. Only Madara had the Juubi and the Shinju inside of him.


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## The Undying (Jul 2, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Then there's the fact that the fourth DB hypes RSM to be the pinnacle of the sensory ability, and then states that it lets Naruto reach a reaction speed equal or greater than Madara's. That mean the gap isn't small.



You're right, I actually forgot about the DB entry. I guess there's really no way to dispute it then.



> So yes, that's a clear indication that he's gotten much stronger. Pierrot may have made the scenes, but it's canon.



Meh, I think it's more of an indication that he developed his _basic_ Chidori to get stronger, but it's not the biggest power output we've seen from EoS Sasuke and I'm not completely convinced that his bigger guns were necessarily made that much more powerful. I can agree that he's far more skilled though.



> A lot of claims have been made for the bold, but not once has anyone ever provided proof or convincing evidence. At least for Sasuke. At this point, I'm not surprised that people think Naruto lost RSM.
> 
> -Shows something similar to BSM in Gaiden with clear traits that only belong to RSM.
> -Boruto the movie, he shows BSM, not any kind of RSM.



Well, I'm a pretty firm believer that what we saw from the Gaiden was indeed BSM. To be honest, though, I'd rather not turn this into a debate because there's little clarity on the matter and it never goes anywhere from the discussions I've read. Hopefully we can just agree to disagree.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 2, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No man. Obito had the Juubi in his body. When he released it, it became the tree form of the Juubi. Only Madara had the Juubi and the Shinju inside of him.


wat
you do realize those are the exact same thing

the juubi was created when kaguya joined with the god tree.
After obito released the tree he still had the nine bijuu chakras and gedo mazou inside of him because those are kaguya's power.

that same power was later absorbed by madara who only later re-absorbed the god tree and was made immortal.



But regardless, the sauce has one rinnegan too and he doesn't have any issue with rikudou jutsu...
and you people are forgetting that it required both nardo and sauce to overwhelm madara.
Individualy it would turn out differently.

And yeah, madara was definetly held back against them.
by that point he only had one gedo-dama remaining and was only throwing elemental jutsu and rinbo at them.

Madara uninhibited by plot and fighting seriously against only sasuke will be an extreme-difficulty battle at the very least.


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## Bonly (Jul 2, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No man. Obito had the Juubi in his body. When he released it, it became the tree form of the Juubi. Only Madara had the Juubi and the Shinju inside of him.



So Obito had the Juubi in him. Then later the Juubi went into it's tree form. So if the tree form is just a form of the Juubi then wouldn't having the Juubi mean that Obito had the tree inside of him?


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## Altair21 (Jul 2, 2015)

Comparing Hashirama and Madara (VOTE) to Rinnegan Sasuke is an utter joke.  

And I'm not sure why people are trying to say Gaiden Sasuke is weaker than Madara/Kaguya fight Sasuke. He's not. The yin and yang seals didn't give Naruto and Sasuke any kind of power-up, which was evident by them still having the same power after losing those seals. The only purpose for them was to seal Kaguya. 

Gaiden Sasuke still has all the power he had from the war arc bar the bijuu susanoo, so yea he's certainly capable of doing anything he could do during the war arc and then some. In The Last he blew up a meteor the size of the Hokage mountain with a mere chidori. I'm pretty sure he's mastered the rinnegan at this point seeing as he's had it for 10+ years meaning all 6 path abilities as well.  

If Sasuke as a kid without any mastery over his rinnegan whatsoever is capable of blitzing and cutting Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara in half then he's certainly not losing to a weaker Juubi Jinchuuriki in Obito now that he's an adult with over 10 years of rinnegan mastery. 

Sasuke should honestly be able to take all of them down with only Obito and Madara putting up any kind of resistance. If you're giving the latter 2 immortality then of course Sasuke loses.


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## Raiken (Jul 2, 2015)

Rinnegan Sasuke "Initial" = JJ Obito
Rinnegan Sasuke "VotE2" = 1 Eyed JJ Madara

Obviously when I say VotE2, I just mean Sasuke w/ Chibaku Tensei & Preta Path, as well as Amenotejikara.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 2, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Meh, I think it's more of an indication that he developed his _basic_ Chidori to get stronger, but it's not the biggest power output we've seen from EoS Sasuke and I'm not completely convinced that his bigger guns were necessarily made that much more powerful. I can agree that he's far more skilled though.



You can't just make a single jutsu stronger by training it. Sasuke's Chidori got stronger because he himself, as in his chakra, got stronger. Thus the same would apply to the manifestation of his chakra. Susanoo.






> Well, I'm a pretty firm believer that what we saw from the Gaiden was indeed BSM. To be honest, though, I'd rather not turn this into a debate because there's little clarity on the matter and it never goes anywhere from the discussions I've read. Hopefully we can just agree to disagree.



Man, I know exactly how that feels. We can agree to disagree.



Deer Lord said:


> wat
> you do realize those are the exact same thing
> 
> the juubi was created when kaguya joined with the god tree.
> ...



Nope. Juubi in it's beast form is not the same as Juubi in it's tree form. Same entity, but not the same form. Not to mention the Shinju that appears in the war is not the Shinju that appeared 1000 years ago during Kafguya's time. 

Obito absorbed the final beast form of the Juubi. Then he released it and it became the Shinju. He still keeps the Bijuu chakra because the tree he released is connected to him. Then Madara took in the Juubi (9 Bijuu), and then he took in the tree form of the Juubi, which was left over from Obito's time as the JJ.

As for the battle, Sasuke's Rinnegan doesn't come in a pair, so he doesn't need two eyes to use their full power. Madara had all the time in the world to use CT, but didn't do it till he got his other eye back. That's a clear indication that he can't use it without his other eye. Then there's Obito, who only had one eye. He never utilized the Rikudo No Jutsu at all.

It didn't "require" both of them to overwhelm him. It requires both of them to seal him. They used a fraction of their power to fight him and they still had him running away. No PS, no Kurama Mode. No Bijuu Dama of any kind. Only called on Shukaku's powers. Sasuke only used Ameno, Chidori and his sword.

An unrestricted Madara w/ one eye and the Juubi has all the techs Obito showed, has the Mokutons he showed as an Edo, but upscaled to match the power of his JJ form, and he has Limbo. That's not enough to give Sasuke, and definitely not Naruto, an extreme diff fight. Nowhere close in fact. Sasuke would mid diff him, and Naruto would obliterate him with low diff if he went all out, as in the powers he used in VoTE. Hell, he'd wreck him w/o the Asura Avatar.




Bonly said:


> So Obito had the Juubi in him. Then later the Juubi went into it's tree form. So if the tree form is just a form of the Juubi then wouldn't having the Juubi mean that Obito had the tree inside of him?



Nope. Because the Juubi hadn't progressed to it's tree form when it was inside Obito, It was just in it's beast form.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 2, 2015)

The shinju that madara absorbed is literally the same tree obito spawned
why are you debating this.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 2, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> The shinju that madara absorbed is literally the same tree obito spawned
> why are you debating this.



Are you even reading before you reply? Because not only is this fact irrelevant, I've explained why. 

-Obito has the JUUBI inside him.
-Obito releases the JUUBI.
-It transforms into the SHINJU.
-Madara absorbs the SHINJU.

Obito never had the Shinju inside of him. That simple.


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## The Undying (Jul 3, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> You can't just make a single jutsu stronger by training it. Sasuke's Chidori got stronger because he himself, as in his chakra, got stronger. Thus the same would apply to the manifestation of his chakra. Susanoo.



Even following that reasoning, Rock Lee and a squad of other shinobi were able to slice the original meteor in half while Rock Lee _himself_ destroyed the meteor's other half with a single strike in the 6th Gate. Do you believe Rock Lee or even the combined chakra of his squad is stronger than EoS Sasuke's Chidori?

The manifestation of his chakra could already destroy colossal meteors that were several times larger than the 1/2 of one in The Last, and the manga never bothered to show us the destructive scale of his Chidori anyway when he was at full power. It's a questionable feat at best.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 3, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Even following that reasoning, Rock Lee and a squad of other shinobi were able to slice the original meteor in half while Rock Lee _himself_ destroyed the meteor's other half with a single strike in the 6th Gate. Do you believe Rock Lee or even the combined chakra of his squad is stronger than EoS Sasuke's Chidori?



The chakra of his squad is irrelevant when they used 6G Taijutsu to obliterate the other half of that meteor. Not to mention this comparison doesn't even make a bit of sense. If Sasuke's Chidori goes from having the power to obliterate less than half of Madara or Hashirama's statues, to obliterating Meteors much bigger than said statues, then that's because Sasuke's chakra strength has increased. Whether or not someone else can replicate that is irrelevant.



> *The manifestation of his chakra could already destroy colossal meteors that were several times larger than the 1/2 of one in The Last,* and the manga never bothered to show us the destructive scale of his Chidori anyway when he was at full power. It's a questionable feat at best.



The bold doesn't change anything that has been stated, and we saw the combination of Enton Chidori and Yin Kurama Rasengan from Naruto and Sasuke. It obliterated Madara and Hashirama's statues. Less than half of that is what Manga Sasuke's Chidori would be.


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## The Undying (Jul 3, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> The chakra of his squad is irrelevant when they used 6G Taijutsu to obliterate the other half of that meteor. Not to mention this comparison doesn't even make a bit of sense. If Sasuke's Chidori goes from having the power to obliterate less than half of Madara or Hashirama's statues, to obliterating Meteors much bigger than said statues, then that's because Sasuke's chakra strength has increased. Whether or not someone else can replicate that is irrelevant.



How is the comparison irrelevant? The question was whether you believed that EoS Sasuke's Chidori, which was powered by Rikudou chakra and capable of slicing Juubidara in two, was weaker than Rock Lee or his squad in the 6th Gate.

Simple question really.




> The bold doesn't change anything that has been stated, and we saw the combination of Enton Chidori and Yin Kurama Rasengan from Naruto and Sasuke. It obliterated Madara and Hashirama's statues. Less than half of that is what Manga Sasuke's Chidori would be.



Naruto and Sasuke weren't at full strength when they used those attacks though, not to mention that the statues already withstood a lot of damage beforehand.


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Nope. Because the Juubi hadn't progressed to it's tree form when it was inside Obito, It was just in it's beast form.



So even though the tree is the beast(just a different form) he doesn't get the perks of the tree because it didn't get to said stage even though said stage is in the Juubi? By any chance can you show me where this is hinted at in the manga or the DB?


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## StickaStick (Jul 3, 2015)

He would beat the first three and lose to the second two. Juubito might be debatable; but Single-Rinnegan Juudara (assuming post-Shinju tree absorption) was going toe-to-toe with this Sasuke and Naruto at the same time. Granted, this was before Sasuke's eye-powers further developed and he became more comfortable with them, but that only closes the gap somewhat and doesn't make for the lack of Naruto's presence here.


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## Altair21 (Jul 3, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> He would beat the first three and lose to the second two. Juubito might be debatable;* but Single-Rinnegan Juudara (assuming post-Shinju tree absorption) was going toe-to-toe with this Sasuke and Naruto at the same time.* Granted, this was before Sasuke's eye-powers further developed and he became more comfortable with them, but that only closes the gap somewhat and doesn't make for the lack of Naruto's presence here.



No he wasn't. The whole reason he retreated and went to gain his second rinnegan was because he realized he was losing when fighting against both of them.


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## TheGreen1 (Jul 3, 2015)

Lol, losing to VoTE Madara? Are you messing with me?

He crushes Hashirama and VoTE Madara. And Rinnegan Madara (Assumption that this is Edo Rinnegan Madara) is sealed too. Juubi-jins are where it gets interesting. I think he can honestly take all of the people shown, but the Juubi-jin fights are going to be very close. And this is just with the weakest version of Rinnegan Sasuke listed here.


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## StickaStick (Jul 3, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> No he wasn't. The whole reason he retreated and went to gain his second rinnegan was because he realized he was losing when fighting against both of them.


I don't agree that because he went for his second Rinnegan instead of sticking around meant that he _needed it_ to contend with them. Naruto and Sasuke weren't exactly overwhelming him and even when they tried to seal him he escaped by switching with his Limbo clone. I think they eventually would have beaten/sealed him but not in any kind of stomp fashion. So my point about the lack of Naruto's presence not being made up for by Sasuke being more comfortable with his Rinnegan still applies.


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## Alucardemi (Jul 3, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Naruto and Sasuke weren't exactly overwhelming him



Honestly, yes, he kinda was lol. Madara was clowned twice by Sasuke's Ameno, and if he didn't have Kamui at the time, he would've most likely been defeated by Sasuke at the point Sasuke cut his body in half and therefore reduced his ability to combat.

Its abundantly clear that he could do nothing against Sasuke's turbo-Hiraishin. Sasuke is definitely not losing to one-eyed Madara.


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## Zef (Jul 3, 2015)

Rinnegan Sasuke > Beerus & Whis :ignoramus





He clears. JJ Madara was struggling against him so anyone beneath a    Juubi Jinchuuriki obviously gets beaten. Even more so if this is adult Sasuke.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 3, 2015)

Rinnegan Sasuke, before Chibaku Tensei and introducing Rikudo PS, managed to split Juubi Jin, Shinju absorbed, 1-Rinnegan Madara completely in half with Chidori and put his Katana through his chest.

He didn't show anything that would put him on the level Rinnegan Sasuke. He plainly saw Judara's invisible copy, his speed was clearly inferior to Sasuke's precognition (A Katana was transported into his chest the moment he attempted a blitz), Rinnegan Sasuke can touch Gudōdama without being severed and he has a flying Perfect Susanoo that's faster than his own shunshin speed, which already succeeded in blitzing 1-eyed Shinju Judara.


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## StickaStick (Jul 3, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Honestly, yes, he kinda was lol. Madara was clowned twice by Sasuke's Ameno, and if he didn't have Kamui at the time, he would've most likely been defeated by Sasuke at the point Sasuke cut his body in half and therefore reduced his ability to combat.
> 
> Its abundantly clear that he could do nothing against Sasuke's turbo-Hiraishin. Sasuke is definitely not losing to one-eyed Madara.


Sasuke's blitz was only possible because of Mads' false sense of security that he could turn his back on Sasuke, move away, take Kakashi's eye and fix it into his eye socket all before Sasuke could catch up to him. And even then he was able to do all of that and turn his head towards Sasuke and fully form a thought on Sasuke's speed before he was actually cut in half. You'll notice that Sasuke didn't attempt to "turbo-Hiraishin" Mads earlier in the fight when his back wasn't completely turned on him and he was giving Sasuke his divided attention. Since I assume ITT Sasuke as well as his opposition have full knowledge on the other's abilities that goes doubly so.


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## Alucardemi (Jul 3, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Sasuke's blitz was only possible because of Mads' false sense of security that he could turn his back on Sasuke, move away, take Kakashi's eye and fix it into his eye socket all before Sasuke could catch up to him. And even then he was able to do all of that and turn his head towards Sasuke and fully form a thought on Sasuke's speed before he was actually cut in half. You'll notice that Sasuke didn't attempt to "turbo-Hiraishin" Mads earlier in the fight when his back wasn't completely turned on him and he was giving Sasuke his divided attention. Since I assume ITT Sasuke as well as his opposition have full knowledge on the other's abilities that goes doubly so.



"False sense of security"?

Really?


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## StickaStick (Jul 3, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> "False sense of security"?
> 
> Really?


Uh, yeah.



Unless you otherwise believe that he thought he could get away and then _expected _to be blitzed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2015)

I'm surprised a lot of people here think Rinnegan Sasuke will be able to do anything to Juubidara. Juubidara lacked all his Gedo Dama, ITT wouldn't be forgetting jutsu he has and also Rinnegan Sasuke doesn't have RSM Naruto backing him up.


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## Zef (Jul 3, 2015)

Goudama are nigh useless here.
Kakashi/Obito avoided them with Kamui which is inferior speed wise to Amenotejikara. RSM Naruto in base casually kicked it. And Sasuke has shown the ability to make physical contact with them without being harmed.

No matter what hypothetical jutsu you give JJ Madara nothing will match Infinite Tsukuyomi, and that Chibaku Tensei in power. Those two techniques were countered by a Naruto & Sasuke not using their full power. 

RSM Naruto dealt no damage to JJ Madara after he absorbed the Shinju. Every hit done to Madara after obtaining "immortality" was a result of Sasuke's ocular prowess.

Naruto needed Sasuke's power (Amenotejikara) in order to hit post Shinju absorption Madara. Not the other way around. Sasuke only needed backup once Madara got his second eye. 
And even then, that was prior to Sasuke getting accustomed to his own Rinnegan.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2015)

Zef said:


> Goudama are nigh useless here.







> Kakashi/Obito avoided them with Kamui which is inferior speed wise to Amenotejikara. RSM Naruto in base casually kicked it. And Sasuke has shown the ability to make physical contact with them without being harmed.



I recall Obito needing a double Kamui to do so and Kakashi needing to be saved by Gai so he wouldn't die.

Sasuke can fight against them considering he has Senjutsu, but they don't need to be overwhelming jutsu. Just jutsu which could give Madara an edge alongside his many other powers.



> No matter what hypothetical jutsu you give JJ Madara nothing will match Infinite Tsukuyomi, and that Chibaku Tensei in power. Those two techniques were countered by a Naruto & Sasuke not using their full power.



So I should ignore all the Seven Paths and Limbo, the EMS, Mokuton and the likes because you think Sasuke somehow stands a chance against a gimped Juubidara alone.
okerface



> RSM Naruto dealt no damage to JJ Madara after he absorbed the Shinju. Every hit done to Madara after obtaining "immortality" was a result of Sasuke's ocular prowess.
> 
> Naruto needed Sasuke's power (Amenotejikara) in order to hit post Shinju absorption Madara. Not the other way around. Sasuke only needed backup once Madara got his second eye.
> And even then, that was prior to Sasuke getting accustomed to his own Rinnegan.



Sasuke needed Naruto to actually land the hits. The only hits Sasuke landed were with Naruto's help, apart from the bit where the Amenojikara sword hit and when Madara had a false sense of security. The former was a situation Madara was put in because of Naruto's help and the latter was also a situation Madara was put in because of Naruto's help.

That fight would be very different without Naruto backing Sasuke up, more so when Madara has everything he has to offer and plans to use them.

Sasuke getting used to Rinnegan vs Madara who didn't use all Rinnegan powers, lacked all aspects of Rikudou Senjutsu (Gedou Dama) and refused to use other powers such as EMS powers alongside Kekkei Genkai powers such as Mokuton.

Juubidara's case is stronger, especially since he could pump Juubi chakra into his attacks.

We we use a Rinnegan Sasuke who lacks Naruto's help against a Juubidara whose unrestrained. It is hard to convincingly say Sasuke would win.


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## Alucardemi (Jul 3, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Uh, yeah.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you otherwise believe that he thought he could get away and then _expected _to be blitzed.



Dude.

He has Six Paths Sage fucking sensing.

You're REALLY gonna say that Madara was caught "unawares with his pants down unexpectedly"?

Sasuke's shunshin was just too fast for him, lol.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Dude.
> 
> He has Six Paths Sage fucking sensing.
> 
> ...



This manga has shown us countless times that sensing prowess is meaningless unless you choose to use it. Madara obviously didn't expect Sasuke to be so fast, hence he commented that Sasuke was so fast.

With knowledge and no PIS, Madara would've seen it coming and countered.


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## Alucardemi (Jul 3, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This manga has shown us countless times that sensing prowess is meaningless unless you choose to use it. Madara obviously didn't expect Sasuke to be so fast, hence he commented that Sasuke was so fast.
> 
> With knowledge and no PIS, Madara would've seen it coming and countered.



Exactly, lol. Madara had no idea that Sasuke's shunshin was so fast, hence he got blitzed. Lmao. His sensing was too damn slow to react in time for him to do anything more than a thought.

I get that you guys want to try and mentally gymnastics around this, but come the frick on.


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Dude.
> 
> He has Six Paths Sage fucking sensing.
> 
> ...



It wouldn't be the first time


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## The Undying (Jul 3, 2015)

People conveniently seem to be forgetting that Sasuke spent the majority of that chapter analyzing and fending off Madara while Naruto dealt with the Limbo clone. Without Naruto's assistance, Sasuke would have been facing off against a completely focused Madara with an unimpeded Limbo. Amenotejikara or not, it's pretty clear that he'd be at a rather blatant disadvantage.

Now with better mastery over the Rinnegan as seen during the end of the arc, I can see him faring somewhat better, but I still don't think it would be enough to actually take him down.


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## StickaStick (Jul 3, 2015)

@Alucardemi

Actually the only one clearly engaging in mental gymnastics is you, are you're the one trying to rationalize why Kishi portrayed it the way he did with Mads' carefully chosen thoughts that indicate he wasn't expecting Sasuke to be so fast; and furthermore can't explain why Sasuke didn't god-blitz Mads earlier in the fight _when his back wasn't completely turned to him and he was giving him his divided attention_. Did Sasuke suddenly become too fast, because given the context you're ignoring that seems to be just what you're suggesting.



The Undying said:


> People conveniently seem to be forgetting that Sasuke spent the majority of that chapter analyzing and fending off Madara while Naruto dealt with the Limbo clone. Without Naruto's assistance, Sasuke would have been facing off against a completely focused Madara with an unimpeded Limbo. Amenotejikara or not, it's pretty clear that he'd be at a rather blatant disadvantage.
> 
> Now with better mastery over the Rinnegan as seen during the end of the arc, I can see him faring somewhat better, but I still don't think it would be enough to actually take him down.


Hard to say conveniently when it's right in their faces. Seems more like blatant denial to me.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 4, 2015)

The Undying said:


> How is the comparison irrelevant? The question was whether you believed that EoS Sasuke's Chidori, which was powered by Rikudou chakra and capable of slicing Juubidara in two, was weaker than Rock Lee or his squad in the 6th Gate.
> 
> Simple question really.




Your question and it's comparison are irrelevant to my point. That the Chidori boost is proof that he has gotten stronger. Whether or not there are stronger techs out there doesn't matter. Does that change the fact that Sasuke's power increased? Yes or no? That is the question, and it's simple.

To answer the irrelevant question, Chidori is much stronger as it vaporized the other half, while Rock Lee and his 6G squad of clones only broke it apart. 





> Naruto and Sasuke weren't at full strength when they used those attacks though, not to mention that the statues already withstood a lot of damage beforehand.



So? If they have enough chakra to use it, it'll be just as strong as it normally is. Their condition being weakened doesn't mean their jutsu get weakened unless it's a jutsu that can vary when it comes to chakra usage.

The statues took a little bit of damage from Indra's Arrow and Naruto's final attack. They didn't take a lot of damage.



Bonly said:


> So even though the tree is the beast(just a different form) he doesn't get the perks of the tree because it didn't get to said stage *even though said stage is in the Juubi?* *By any chance can you show me where this is hinted at in the manga or the DB?*



Why would he get the perks from the final form of the Juubi when he doesn't have the final form of the Juubi in him? That's like saying he can absorb V1 Juubi and still be the same strength as he is when he absorbs V3 Juubi. That doesn't make sense. Not sure what the bold is talking about. The Shinju isn't inside the Juubi. The Shinju in the War is the final form of the Juubi. It transforms.

1. Irrelevant if nothing in the Manga or DB states it. It's literally common sense. V1 V2 V3 and Tree form Juubi are all the same entity, but different forms with different strengths.

2. Madara's cloak gets extra features when he takes in the Shinju.
here.
here.

3. Obito was not hinted to be immortal in any way, shape, or form. Unlike Madara.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Exactly, lol. Madara had no idea that Sasuke's shunshin was so fast, hence he got blitzed. Lmao. His sensing was too damn slow to react in time for him to do anything more than a thought.
> 
> I get that you guys want to try and mentally gymnastics around this, but come the frick on.



 Not to mention he had access to Kamui, one of the most haxed techniques in the entire manga.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 4, 2015)

The Undying said:


> People conveniently seem to be forgetting that Sasuke spent the majority of that chapter analyzing and fending off Madara while Naruto dealt with the Limbo clone. Without Naruto's assistance, Sasuke would have been facing off against a completely focused Madara with an unimpeded Limbo. Amenotejikara or not, it's pretty clear that he'd be at a rather blatant disadvantage.
> 
> Now with better mastery over the Rinnegan as seen during the end of the arc, I can see him faring somewhat better, but I still don't think it would be enough to actually take him down.


Pretty much this.
Plus it was with Ame-whateveritsnamed that sasuke surprised madara, with knowledge of that jutsu madara would not have turned his back on sasuke and rush for kakashi.


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## StickaStick (Jul 4, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Not to mention he had access to Kamui, one of the most haxed techniques in the entire manga.


No intangibility on that eye homie


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## Zef (Jul 4, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I recall Obito needing a double Kamui to do so and Kakashi needing to be saved by Gai so he wouldn't die.


Yes, and double Kamui's warping speed is inferior to Amenotejikara's instantaneous shifting. So the Goudama are still inconsequential to Sasuke IF he feels the need to avoid them. 



> So I should ignore all the Seven Paths


So are we going to give the Seven Paths to Adult Sasuke in this scenario as well? 



> * and Limbo, the EMS, Mokuton* and the likes because you think Sasuke somehow stands a chance against a gimped Juubidara alone.
> okerface


Madara already utilized those abilities prior to becoming a Juubi Jinchuuriki. If that version of Madara (Edo, One-eyed Revived) pose no threat to Rinnegan Sasuke then what difference does it make giving them to JJ Madara?  
Limbo is visible to Sasuke. And One-eyed JJ Madara makes only one. 
EMS only grants Madara PS. (which he can still do without eyes so in truth it adds nothing)
Mokuton isn't doing anything to Sasuke. 



> Sasuke needed Naruto to actually land the hits. The only hits Sasuke landed were with Naruto's help, apart from the bit where the Amenojikara sword hit and when Madara had a false sense of security. The former was a situation Madara was put in because of Naruto's help and the latter was also a situation Madara was put in because of Naruto's help.


No to all of this. 
The three blows landed on JJ Madara post Shinju absorption:




The only one out of the three Naruto contributed towards was the second image, and only because Sasuke shifted Madara between them and instructed Naruto to aim his attack towards him.



> That fight would be very different without Naruto backing Sasuke up, more so when Madara has everything he has to offer and plans to use them.


Again, no.
If we're still referring to JJ Madara prior to getting his second eye then neither Naruto nor Sasuke require much assistance dealing with him.

Naruto (by himself) against JJ Madara *pre Shinju absorption.* 



The only instance in which mutual assistance is mandatory is when we discuss Two-eyed, or Three eyed JJ Madara. And that's only when we're referring to them prior to VOTE let alone their adult counterparts.



> Sasuke getting used to Rinnegan vs Madara who didn't use all Rinnegan powers, lacked all aspects of Rikudou Senjutsu (Gedou Dama) and refused to use other powers such as EMS powers alongside Kekkei Genkai powers such as Mokuton.


All these powers are irrelevant to the ones he used.
Madara's strongest Rinnegan feat was a Chibaku Tensei the size of a large island/small country. 
All other ocular powers are meaningless strength wise.

Mokuton isn't even worth mentioning. Naruto, and Sasuke were slicing up the God Tree so why people act like Mokuton is a threat to them is lost on me.

A weaker version of Naruto & Sasuke (BSM/EMS) dealt with a Juubi Jinchuuriki that used his Goudama much better then Madara did. Again, they're nigh useless. 



> Juubidara's case is stronger, especially since he could pump Juubi chakra into his attacks.
> 
> We we use a Rinnegan Sasuke who lacks Naruto's help against a Juubidara whose unrestrained. It is hard to convincingly say Sasuke would win.


Madara using country/planetary level techniques is hardly him being restrained.
A character isn't going to use every jutsu they've ever possessed in battle. That's just unrealistic. 

In truth Madara has no excuse. He awoke Rinnegan in old age, and had it for a period before dying. Sasuke had it for minutes, and was getting the better of someone who had experience on their side. And that was with Sasuke using a technique that isn't even part of the Six Paths.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Exactly, lol. Madara had no idea that Sasuke's shunshin was so fast, hence he got blitzed. Lmao. His sensing was too damn slow to react in time for him to do anything more than a thought.



He didn't know = he didn't use sensing to track Sasuke. The first time he was aware of Sasuke was the moment he realised he was fast.



> I get that you guys want to try and mentally gymnastics around this, but come the frick on.



Its called actually considering what happened. You argument involves me believing ITT PIS is on for Madara and that Sasuke could've done the same things he did without Naruto.



Zef said:


> Yes, and double Kamui's warping speed is inferior to Amenotejikara's instantaneous shifting. So the Goudama are still inconsequential to Sasuke IF he feels the need to avoid them.



Didn't it save Sakura faster than Amenojikara did?

Gedo Dama can just be used to explode to create diversions or be used as shields if Madara needs to use something like Juubidamas.

Though I don't think the sword of Nonoboku would be stomped by Sasuke. Madara lacks the feelings Obito had.



> So are we going to give the Seven Paths to Adult Sasuke in this scenario as well?



I distinguished Sasuke to a few versions, ones who didn't have them and ones who did. It'll make this discussion easier if I know what you're assuming. 
I'm going by the assumption you're assuming this is either the Sasuke who fought Juubidara or the Sasuke who fought Naruto.



> Madara already utilized those abilities prior to becoming a Juubi Jinchuuriki. If that version of Madara (Edo, One-eyed Revived) pose no threat to Rinnegan Sasuke then what difference does it make giving them to JJ Madara?
> Limbo is visible to Sasuke. And One-eyed JJ Madara makes only one.
> EMS only grants Madara PS. (which he can still do without eyes so in truth it adds nothing)
> Mokuton isn't doing anything to Sasuke.



You're telling me becoming a Juubi Jinchuriki will make Madara *lose* those abilities. 

Of course that version of Madara posses no threat to Sasuke: he didn't use a lot of his big guns. All he did was a Yin jutsu, Limbo and did some flying. Using those abilities with Juubidara would be more than a threat to Sasuke. 

EMS would include the other MS jutsu, should Madara need them. Just like Sasuke's. Limbo can be effective if used right. If Madara uses all these abilities together, then Sasuke is going to have a hard time.



> No to all of this.
> The three blows landed on JJ Madara post Shinju absorption:
> 
> 
> ...



Image one, a situation Madara was put in because Sasuke and Naruto fought together.

Image two, Naruto was helping Sasuke seal Madara.

Image three, a situation Madara was put in because Naruto helped; see image two.

Anything Naruto did happened because Sasuke was there; anything Sasuke did happened because Naruto was there.
The fight would be different if either faced Madara alone. The fight would be radically different if Madara didn't forget to use abilities.


> Again, no.
> If we're still referring to JJ Madara prior to getting his second eye then neither Naruto nor Sasuke require much assistance dealing with him.
> 
> Naruto (by himself) against JJ Madara *pre Shinju absorption.*
> ...



But all these variants also assume a Madara who won't use any Juubified Mokuton, EMS abilities or other Rinnegan powers. In the battledome, we don't tend to assume PIS.

So that would be different. For example: image one, Shinra Tensei could have been a helpful jutsu in that situation, or even Mokuton. Image two: Preta Path, anyone?



> All these powers are irrelevant to the ones he used.
> Madara's strongest Rinnegan feat was a Chibaku Tensei the size of a large island/small country.
> All other ocular powers are meaningless strength wise.
> 
> ...



All ocular powers aren't meaningless when you see what they actually do. Using CT the way you are is more like a cop out not to consider anything else he could have done.
What CT does is give us an indication of what scale Madara's Rinnegan jutsu operate. We can infer his Tendo and Shurado jutsu would be insane.

Mokuton isn't worth mentioning despite the fact it has quite a lot of jutsu and functions which could help.
Let alone the fact it could be enhanced by the Juubi and Rinnegan.

A Juubified Mokujin jutsu or the Buddha statue coated in a Juubified PS wouldn't be fodder. 

A Juubi Jinchuriki who had no PIS apart from using his Rinnegan... now Madara's PIS was so strong that he didn't even use the Gedo Dama to the fullest... they were removed before he could.



> Madara using country/planetary level techniques is hardly him being restrained.
> A character isn't going to use every jutsu they've ever possessed in battle. That's just unrealistic.



Except him not using jutsu he has which could've got him out of a lot of jams, for instance not absorbing the Youton Rasenshuriken or not using any other power when he was in a bind.

A character won't be using every jutsu they've possessed true... but it is a clear case of PIS when a character appears to have forgotten every jutsu they have. Especially in Madara's case where the jutsu he was using didn't seem to be helping... and the readers can see the other jutsu he didn't use would have helped.



> In truth Madara has no excuse. He awoke Rinnegan in old age, and had it for a period before dying. Sasuke had it for minutes, and was getting the better of someone who had experience on their side. And that was with Sasuke using a technique that isn't even part of the Six Paths.



Madara actually knew the jutsu he taught Obito apart from the jutsu he chose not to teach, Limbo. So the only excuse he has is PIS: understandable as Kishi didn't even know how to beat this guy.

Sasuke did show a jutsu not part of a Six Paths, then again so did Madara (Limbo). We know the Rinnegan might have some more powers outside the Seven Paths... but that depends on how the Boruto movie pans out.


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## The Undying (Jul 4, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Your question and it's comparison are irrelevant to my point. That the Chidori boost is proof that he has gotten stronger. Whether or not there are stronger techs out there doesn't matter. Does that change the fact that Sasuke's power increased? Yes or no? That is the question, and it's simple.
> 
> To answer the irrelevant question, Chidori is much stronger as it vaporized the other half, while Rock Lee and his 6G squad of clones only broke it apart.



There was still plenty of rubble falling after the Chidori's strike, so no, he didn't outright vaporize the other half. It's not even a particularly impressive feat when you have Rock Lee literally tearing apart the other meteor with a punch.

As for the question, it's totally relevant. I'm referring to _EoS_ Sasuke's Chidori, not The Last Sasuke's Chidori. I asked if you thought it was weaker than The Last Rock Lee's strength in the sixth gate, despite the fact that it was able to cut Juudara's body in two. If your answer to that question is "no", simple mathematics will tell you there is no indication that Sasuke's Chidori improved AT ALL in The Last because it would mean he could replicate the same feat two years earlier.

If Rinnegan Sasuke's Chidori from the end of the war arc is = to or > than 6G Rock Lee's strength in The Last, that Chidori can easily destroy that half of the meteor.




> So? If they have enough chakra to use it, it'll be just as strong as it normally is. Their condition being weakened doesn't mean their jutsu get weakened unless it's a jutsu that can vary when it comes to chakra usage



Chidori was stated to be a pure concentration of Raiton chakra, and it was also shown to potentially harm the user's hand if more power is put into it than the user can handle, so of course it can vary when it comes to chakra usage. If Sasuke's running on little chakra, it's obvious that his Chidori isn't going to be as strong as it normally would be. The fact that he supplemented it with Kagutsuchi to match Naruto's Rasengan is an even bigger indication of this.



> The statues took a little bit of damage from Indra's Arrow and Naruto's final attack. They didn't take a lot of damage.



Because they withstood it, like I said. They're dense constructs with more durability than a large falling rock, so comparing them to the meteor is utterly meaningless. That was my entire point.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 4, 2015)

Technically, EoS Sasuke is Gaiden Sasuke, and I don't remember him being remotely serious there.


----------



## Zef (Jul 4, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Didn't it save Sakura faster than Amenojikara did?


Kakashi came in with the save via Susano'o. No warping was used so no.


> Gedo Dama can just be used to explode to create diversions or be used as shields if Madara needs to use something like Juubidamas.


And Madara has done none of this except creating a shield. 
Kaguya used a gigantic one to create an "explosion" of sorts, albeit she first gathered the chakra of those trapped in IT.
Regarding their use for diversions I have no clue what application you're referring to.They're spherical orbs composed of several chakra natures. I fail to see the use they have in trickery or deception. 



> Though I don't think the sword of Nonoboku would be stomped by Sasuke. Madara lacks the feelings Obito had.


1)Why are we giving the Sword of Nonoboku to Madara? 
2)Why are we assuming Obito's feelings are what caused the sword to break?

If we give Madara the Sword of Nonoboku, and assume the legend behind the sword is not mere hyperbole there are still no feats to suggest it can match a Perfect Susano'o blade powered by Rikudou chakra. 

Feat wise.
Perfect Susano'o sword > Sword of Nonoboku. 



> I distinguished Sasuke to a few versions, ones who didn't have them and ones who did. It'll make this discussion easier if I know what you're assuming.
> I'm going by the assumption you're assuming this is either the Sasuke who fought Juubidara or the Sasuke who fought Naruto.



OP asked how powerful Rinnegan Sasuke is. 
Therefore it makes the most sense IMO to use the most powerful form of Rinnegan Sasuke. Which would be the adult version if the dimension jumping is any indication. 

Sasuke that fought Juubidara loses. Due to Rinnegan inexperience.

VOTE, The Last, and Gaiden/Boruto film versions should beat One-eyed JJ Madara. 



> You're telling me becoming a Juubi Jinchuriki will make Madara *lose* those abilities.


No.
I just don't see how they make those abilities anymore relevant to Sasuke. 

We give JJ Madara Mokuton. 
Okay, Mokuton still doesn't give Madara the edge. Why? Because Mokuton simply isn't a threat to Sasuke. Same with most of the other powers we could hypothetically give JJ Madara. 



> EMS would include the other MS jutsu, should Madara need them.


No
No
No
No
No
This is fanfic territory. I know this is all hypothetical, but you can't just give Madara any random MS technique you feel like. Madara only has PS. You can't give him Kamui, Amaterasu, Koto, Tsukuyomi, etc, and just say it's fair since we never saw his actual ocular powers outside Susano'o. 

For starters, JJ Madara in this gauntlet has one eye. Even if you wanted to give him a MS ability he's never shown he would be restricted to one technique for one eye.



> Limbo can be effective if used right. If Madara uses all these abilities together, then Sasuke is going to have a hard time.


Limbo's main quality is it's use in deception, or distraction since it's an invisible clone.
Sasuke can see it.
And Madara without his second eye can only send his shadow out for so long. A single Limbo all together is useless. 



> Image one, a situation Madara was put in because Sasuke and Naruto fought together.


Not even close. 
Madara charged at Sasuke, and Sasuke countered.
Saying Madara was put into said situation is a reach. Madara saw how good Sasuke's eye was since it could see his clones, and decided to take it for himself. No Naruto involved whatsoever. 



> Image two, Naruto was helping Sasuke seal Madara.


I'm not talking about sealing.I specifically used the term "hits". Even then it was Sasuke's instruction, and his jutsu that made this possible. Remove Naruto, and Sasuke still would have shifted Madara in the path of his attack.



> Image three, a situation Madara was put in because Naruto helped; see image two.


Nope, Madara put himself in these situations by overestimating his own power, and underestimating Saauke's. Hence the reason he rushed to get more.



> Anything Naruto did happened because Sasuke was there;


Yes



> anything Sasuke did happened because Naruto was there.


No

-Madara would have still attempted to steal Sasuke's Rinnegan. 

-Sasuke would have still shifted Madara in front of Chidori

-Madara would still try running, and get caught off guard by Sasuke's speed. 

Naruto isn't necessary for any of these events to repeat.




> The fight would be different if either faced Madara alone. The fight would be radically different if Madara didn't forget to use abilities.


Madara didn't *"forget"*. He just opted not to use them. 
Madara who had no prior knowledge in the use of Kamui inserted Obito's eye in his socket, and wielded it's power like an expert.
That alone throws away the *"forget"* excuse. He sure *"remembered"* a jutsu he never utilized before. 




> But all these variants also assume a Madara who won't use any Juubified Mokuton, EMS abilities or other Rinnegan powers. In the battledome, we don't tend to assume PIS.


PIS or not there is never going to be a scenario in which every possible jutsu is exhausted. 
We could have a hypothetical back & forth right now , and there would be several unused techniques. Not because the character forgot, but because we forgot. 



> So that would be different. For example: image one, Shinra Tensei could have been a helpful jutsu in that situation, or even Mokuton. Image two: Preta Path, anyone?


That's under the assumption he would be able to react in time to use those techniques. Physical/Mental reaction plays a part in manga battles. Not sure about Battledome.



> All ocular powers aren't meaningless when you see what they actually do. Using CT the way you are is more like a cop out not to consider anything else he could have done.
> What CT does is give us an indication of what scale Madara's Rinnegan jutsu operate. We can infer his Tendo and Shurado jutsu would be insane.



I'm using CT as an example of the pinnacle Rinnegan has to offer in DC (destructive capacity). Tendo, and Shurado wouldn't be capable of inflicting damage equal to that. Hence the reason I marked off the rest of his ocular powers as being useless. At least in terms of strength. There are plenty of doujutsu hax that can compensate (i,e  3 Eyed Madara's Infinite Tsukuyomi  which Sasuke also countered)

My logic is this.
If this attack deals X damage.
Then any attack that can't equal, or go above X damage isn't worth it.

Why expect a Shinra Tensei, or robotic missiles to be useful when it can't reach the scale of a country sized attack that had little to no effect? 

May not be the most precise of logic, but it's logic that makes sense nonetheless if we look purely at DC, and ignore hax jutsu.



> Mokuton isn't worth mentioning despite the fact it has quite a lot of jutsu and functions which could help.
> Let alone the fact it could be enhanced by the Juubi and Rinnegan.



I don't mean to sound ignorant. 
But at its most basic it's the power to manipulate trees/wood.
I see no amplification that can boost it to where it's a threat to Sasuke's aerial PS. Sasuke with a lesser Susano'o severed a root from the Shinju. Mokuton techniques literally don't phase him.



> A Juubified Mokujin jutsu or the Buddha statue coated in a Juubified PS wouldn't be fodder.


Even in this hypothetical match this sounds too fictitous. 
Juubified Mokuton? What would that even look like?



> A Juubi Jinchuriki who had no PIS apart from using his Rinnegan... now Madara's PIS was so strong that he didn't even use the Gedo Dama to the fullest... they were removed before he could.


Are we seriously going to use "PIS" as an argument for Madara's performance? 
I can apply that to so many characters in so many situations, and it gets us nowhere. Sasuke used no Paths when fighting JJ Madara. Now *THAT* was PIS because Sasuke was handling Madara just fine with only Amenotejikara. Any more, and Madara wouldn't have reached his second eye. 



> Except him not using jutsu he has which could've got him out of a lot of jams, for instance not absorbing the Youton Rasenshuriken or not using any other power when he was in a bind.


Or he simply was unable to react. 

Everything is plot driven. Certain powers can, and can't be used at specific times in order to either move the plot along, or stall it. Because every fight is plot driven it should be our job to come up with reasons why a character didn't use X, or Y instead of blaming it all on the plot. Duh, of course it's the plot. The same plot that restricted Madara also bent over to give him the power he had in the first place. A lot of PIS was dropped on characters just so one could cast Infinite Tsukuyomi. So let's please try explaining this without faulting the writing. "Plot" doesn't help much in this debate. 




> A character won't be using every jutsu they've possessed true... but it is a clear case of PIS when a character appears to have forgotten every jutsu they have. Especially in Madara's case where the jutsu he was using didn't seem to be helping... and the readers can see the other jutsu he didn't use would have helped.


Like I said above. The only reason Madara got to the point where he needed to be restricted by plot was because other characters suffered from PIS (i,e Sasuke not using Susano'o to deter the stab to his heart).
So I'm over the PIS excuse.
At VOTE Sasuke could have extracted Naruto's soul instead of absorb his chakra. 
Or better yet he could have crushed Naruto to death by making him a singularity via Chibaku Tensei. 
But it didn't happen. 



> *Madara actually knew the jutsu he taught Obito apart from the jutsu he chose not to teach,* Limbo. So the only excuse he has is PIS:


I don't see how this helps.
So you're admitting a knowledgeable Madara got overwhelmed by inexperienced Sasuke? 


> understandable as Kishi didn't even know how to beat this guy.


It was established how to beat him: Sealing.
But Madara didn't get that luxury. At the height of his power he was impaled by hand, and over went a sex change. 



> Sasuke did show a jutsu not part of a Six Paths, then again so did Madara (Limbo). We know the Rinnegan might have some more powers outside the Seven Paths... but that depends on how the Boruto movie pans out.



Can't wait for the Boruto film.

Need more fap material

Don't disappoint Sasuke.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 4, 2015)

Well, we're still not sure if Sasuke kept his Bijuu Perfect Susano post-VOTE, so...


----------



## Zef (Jul 4, 2015)

Sasuke don't need that mess to beat Madara. 


Dimension hop GG.


----------



## Raiken (Jul 5, 2015)

Zef said:


> Sasuke don't need that mess to beat Madara.
> 
> 
> Dimension hop GG.


The Amenojikara "whatever it is called" overestimation is high with this one.


----------



## Kyu (Jul 5, 2015)

> Well, we're still not sure if Sasuke kept his Bijuu Perfect Susano post-VOTE, so...



He didn't.**


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Jul 5, 2015)

The Undying said:


> There was still plenty of rubble falling after the Chidori's strike, so no, he didn't outright vaporize the other half. It's not even a particularly impressive feat when you have Rock Lee literally tearing apart the other meteor with a punch.



The pieces were so tiny that it is barely matters. All that matters is that the 6G Squads attack did not do something that great. Why am I still talking about this anyway when it doesn't matter. The point is either flying right over your head, or you are purposely ignoring it and bringing up stuff that doesn't matter instead. 

I don't care if it's an impressive feat. The point is, it's a feat FAR GREATER THAN WHAT HIS CHIDORI COULD DO BEFORE. 



> As for the question, it's totally relevant. I'm referring to _EoS_ Sasuke's Chidori, not The Last Sasuke's Chidori. I asked if you thought it was weaker than The Last Rock Lee's strength in the sixth gate, despite the fact that it was able to cut Juudara's body in two. If your answer to that question is "no", simple mathematics will tell you there is no indication that Sasuke's Chidori improved AT ALL in The Last because it would mean he could replicate the same feat two years earlier.



 Sasuke's Chidori is far stronger than the attack that obliterated the Meteor. Not to mention that was a squad of 6G Lees, not a single Lee. Not to mention what you are saying doesn't make a bit of sense. Why would Sasuke's Chidori not be stronger? 

-Stop mentioning JJ Madara. His body has shown no impressive, or rather consistent, durability.
-Already showed scans of the power of Sasuke's Chidori in the Manga.
-The Meteor feat surpasses it.



> If Rinnegan Sasuke's Chidori from the end of the war arc is = to or > than 6G Rock Lee's strength in The Last, that Chidori can easily destroy that half of the meteor.



Stop saying "6G Lee" like it was only Lee. Lee had a dozen other clones of himself. To answer your question, which still isn't relevant, no, 6G squad's attack>17 yr old Rikudo Sasuke's Chidori.





> Chidori was stated to be a pure concentration of Raiton chakra, and it was also shown to potentially harm the user's hand if more power is put into it than the user can handle, so of course it can vary when it comes to chakra usage.* If Sasuke's running on little chakra, it's obvious that his Chidori isn't going to be as strong as it normally would be. *The fact that he supplemented it with Kagutsuchi to match Naruto's Rasengan is an even bigger indication of this.



It being a concentration of chakra in the hand literally changes nothing I've stated, and the Manga has already proved that your line of thinking is 100% wrong. Sasuke and Kakashi used to have limits on how many times they could use Chidori. If Chidori could be used with any amount of chakra, why would this limit exist? Why would Kakashi say that Sasuke would die trying to squeeze out another Chidori when in reality all that would happen is that his Chidori would be weaker? 

Simple. 




> Because they withstood it, like I said. *They're dense constructs with more durability than a large falling rock,* so comparing them to the meteor is utterly meaningless. That was my entire point.



No, you said they took a lot of damage. I'm telling you that they didn't. If they withstood it with virtually no damage, then they took, virtually no damage. That simple.

I really hope you are joking.

1. If the bold was your point, you did a poor job of conveying it considering you never even hinted at this.

2. You have zero proof for this claim.

3. Those Meteors were falling from either outer space or the Moon because of what Toneri was doing. 100% sure that Hashirama and Madara's Statues are not more durable than space rock when they are smaller by a large margin.


----------



## Altair21 (Jul 5, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> The Amenojikara "whatever it is called" overestimation is high with this one.



His dimension hopping (him being able to go in and out of Kaguya's dimension) is not Amenojikara.


----------



## The Undying (Jul 5, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> The pieces were so tiny that it is barely matters.



The pieces weren't much tinier than the aftermath of Lee's attack. Why on earth are you comparing the size of the debris anyway? The Chidori didn't "vaporize" the meteor and that's that.



> Why am I still talking about this anyway when it doesn't matter. The point is either flying right over your head, or you are purposely ignoring it and bringing up stuff that doesn't matter instead.



I explained why it matters. Let me simplify it for you:

A.) Rock Lee's strike on the meteor wasn't terribly less impressive than Sasuke's Chidori strike; they destroyed halves of the meteor although there were still rock pieces falling after both attacks. Those attacks were roughly comparable to the degree that the point was to show that they were capable of destroying meteors.

B.) It is unlikely that 17 year old Sasuke's Chidori, which could cut Juudara in two, is weaker than Rock Lee or even his entire squad combined at 19 years old.

C.) Therefore, there is no evidence that Sasuke's Chidori is "far greater than what his Chidori could do before".

It's not irrelevant. Rather, I think you're just willfully ignoring its relevance to the issue at hand.




> Not to mention that was a squad of 6G Lees, not a single Lee.



Why does that matter? I have no idea what you're trying to get at here, but the insinuation that clones don't factor into a character's strength is hilarious.



> -Stop mentioning JJ Madara. His body has shown no impressive, or rather consistent, durability.



He survived this with his entire body intact. He's insanely durable.

Now explain how his durability is inconsistent. I can't wait to hear this.



> -Already showed scans of the power of Sasuke's Chidori in the Manga.
> 
> -The Meteor feat surpasses it.



We haven't seen Sasuke use Chidori against a small meteor in the manga, but no, the meteor feat doesn't surpass cutting Juudara in half. Try again.



> It being a concentration of chakra in the hand literally changes nothing I've stated, and the Manga has already proved that your line of thinking is 100% wrong. Sasuke and Kakashi used to have limits on how many times they could use Chidori. If Chidori could be used with any amount of chakra, why would this limit exist? Why would Kakashi say that Sasuke would die trying to squeeze out another Chidori when in reality all that would happen is that his Chidori would be weaker?



The limit exists because the standard amount of chakra used when activating Chidori is already high, but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that certain characters can put more power into Chidori than others. Sasuke flat-out said that he was putting his Rikudou power into Chidori while fighting Juudara, and we saw from Sasuke's first encounter with Itachi that his hand was suffering damage as a result of him putting too much force into the attack. Thus, its damage capabilities differ depending on the amount of chakra put into the technique.

Simple. 



> No, you said they took a lot of damage. I'm telling you that they didn't. If they withstood it with virtually no damage, then they took, virtually no damage. That simple.



I said they withstood a lot of damage. As in, they withstood attacks that would cause a tremendous amount of damage to anything else. This isn't hard to understand.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 6, 2015)

The Undying said:


> The pieces weren't much tinier than the aftermath of Lee's attack. Why on earth are you comparing the size of the debris anyway? The Chidori didn't "vaporize" the meteor and that's that.




*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 








Can we not straight up lie about what happened? Only makes your whole argumentation look weaker than it already is, and God is it weak. Whether or not it vaporized the meteor doesn't change my damn point. That it's much stronger than what Lee managed. 



> I explained why it matters. Let me simplify it for you:
> 
> A.) Rock Lee's strike on the meteor wasn't terribly less impressive than Sasuke's Chidori strike; they destroyed halves of the meteor although there were still rock pieces falling after both attacks. Those attacks were roughly comparable to the degree that the point was to show that they were capable of destroying meteors.



Which does not matter. Rock Lee matching Sasuke's Chidori with a bunch of clones is a + for them, not a reason to downgrade anyone's feat.





> B.) It is unlikely that 17 year old Sasuke's Chidori, which could cut Juudara in two, is weaker than Rock Lee or even his entire squad combined at 19 years old.


Which is a baseless assumption backed by literally nothing you've posted this whole debate.



> C.) Therefore,* there is no evidence that Sasuke's Chidori is "far greater than what his Chidori could do before".*



What's amazing is that you state this, but ignore what a Chidori+Rasengan did in comparison to what Chidori alone did. 



> It's not irrelevant. Rather, I think you're just willfully ignoring its relevance to the issue at hand.


Except it's not relevant, and even if it were relevant you literally have no idea what you are talking about here. None whatsoever.




> Why does that matter? I have no idea what you're trying to get at here, but the insinuation that clones don't factor into a character's strength is hilarious.



Never said or implied that. Let's stick to what is on the screen instead of trying to twist my words. All I'm stating is that it was multiple Lee's, so don't say "Lee's punch" as if he did it on his own. What's equally hilarious is that you think Lee used clones when he can't use Ninjutsu. How they cloned him is another story altogether and completely irrelevant to this debate, just like half the points you are bringing.




> He survived this with his entire body intact. He's insanely durable.
> 
> Now explain how his durability is inconsistent. I can't wait to hear this.



-Gets pierced by blade.
-Takes YRS, which obliterated the Shinju.
-Takes multiple hits from Evening Elephant, including a direct hit even though it wrecked his Gudo Dama, which can tank Bijuu Dama.

What, are you going to tell me that Sasuke's Chidori Katana>Night Gai now? Are you going to tell me that Sasuke's Chidori Katana>Evening Elephant which wrecked the Gudo Dama when Madara was smashed through it? Cause then you'd have to tell me that Sasuke's Chidori Katana>BSM Naruto's Bijuu Dama, despite a buffed Chidori (Stronger than Chidori Katana) and a buffed Rasengan creating an explosion inferior to a regular Bijuu Dama.

Inconsistent. Plain and simple. Then there's the fact that these can be explained by pure physics as well. Chidori Katana is much more focused than any of these attacks. That's why a Bijuu can pierce Hachibi but he can survive his own Bijuu Dama. Cutting Madara in half literally does not prove a word of what you are saying.




> We haven't seen Sasuke use Chidori against a small meteor in the manga, but no, the meteor feat doesn't surpass cutting Juudara in half. Try again.



Except it does, and anyone who doesn't read the Manga with a bag over their head knows that this is true. Why the hell are you still mentioning Madara when we have a clear cut depiction of Chidori's strength, and it took a BUFFED Chidori+a BUFFED Rasengan to destroy the statues at VoTE, and the Meteor is much much larger than those statues. Please do the math and get back at me, cause this discussion shouldn't have gone past the 2nd post.

You are saying that cutting Madara in half is a feat that lets him obliterate that Meteor even though you literally pulled that out of your ass. I don't care for opinions here. I care for opinions backed by some kind of fact.




> The limit exists because the standard amount of chakra used when activating Chidori is already high, but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that certain characters can put more power into Chidori than others. Sasuke flat-out said that he was putting his Rikudou power into Chidori while fighting Juudara, and we saw from Sasuke's first encounter with Itachi that his hand was suffering damage as a result of him putting too much force into the attack. Thus, its damage capabilities differ depending on the amount of chakra put into the technique.
> 
> Simple.



And how does that change anything that has been said here? Sasuke most definitely has more chakra in him than 2 Chidori's, yet he can't use 3, because he doesn't have enough in him for 3. If what you were saying was true, and he could use an undercharged Chidori, then the 2 Chidori limit wouldn't exist. It's really that simple and I cannot make it any simpler than that.

If only your examples made any sense. Your first example isn't Sasuke putting any kind of extra power into Chidori. It's Sasuke using a different type of Chidori. Your second example is still irrelevant since we aren't talking about overcharging Chidori here, we are talking about it being undercharged, and that is not possible due to the limit. If you don't have the power to use the standard Chidori you can't use it. It's really that simple. Manga agrees. Anyone who can read it should agree.



[QUOTEI said they withstood a lot of damage. As in, they withstood attacks that would cause a tremendous amount of damage to anything else. This isn't hard to understand.[/QUOTE]



And I'm saying that they took no damage, thus Naruto and Sasuke's attacks destroying them has nothing to do with prior damage, thus I can accurately compare this feat to the Meteor fight. Not to mention if you wanted to say that they took attacks that'd normally cause a lot of damage, you wouldn't say that they withstood a lot of damage. Smh. 

What's also interesting is that once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. They were hit with the SHOCKWAVES of Indra's Arrow and Naruto's TBBFRS and FRS. What strong attack did they take? Unless you are actually implying that they got hit by the blast of IA and BDFRS+FRS. But no one in their right mind would imply that since they got wrecked by Rasengan and Chidori.


----------



## The Undying (Jul 6, 2015)

This is getting a little heated for my liking, and frankly I can't be bothered to throw subtle insults and jabs around. I'm just going to skip to what I feel are the core parts of this debate:



KeyofMiracles said:


> -Gets pierced by blade.
> -Takes YRS, which obliterated the Shinju.
> -Takes multiple hits from Evening Elephant, including a direct hit even though it wrecked his Gudo Dama, which can tank Bijuu Dama.



Juudara getting pierced by a blade is the one thing I'll give you, but it doesn't really erase the numerous other durability feats he has. Hell, you've listed some of them yourself. I don't think it's enormously inconsistent, and to me it's pretty clear what Kishimoto was trying to show in regards to his durability.

Even if you're correct, I'd hope you can at least see why these feats are sometimes misleading or confusing since you've admitted that they're inconsistent.



> What, are you going to tell me that Sasuke's Chidori Katana>Night Gai now? Are you going to tell me that Sasuke's Chidori Katana>Evening Elephant which wrecked the Gudo Dama when Madara was smashed through it? Cause then you'd have to tell me that Sasuke's Chidori Katana>BSM Naruto's Bijuu Dama, despite a buffed Chidori (Stronger than Chidori Katana) and a buffed Rasengan creating an explosion inferior to a regular Bijuu Dama.



That's pretty much what I'm saying, yeah. His Chidori itself was said to be buffed by Hagoromo's power, so I don't find it unbelievable that his Chidori's sheer power is greater than what Guy could produce in the 8th Gate. As for the Chidori used at VOTE, I stand by what I said about it not being the strongest Chidori Sasuke could produce. I'm not saying that it was "undercharged" per se, but rather that with fuller chakra reserves, Sasuke is capable of putting more power into it than normal (hence the meteor explosion and cutting Juudara in half).

Look. I'm not terribly opposed to believing that Sasuke's Chidori improved a lot during two years, but I am somewhat skeptical and I've laid out my reasoning for that.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Jul 8, 2015)

The Undying said:


> This is getting a little heated for my liking, and frankly I can't be bothered to throw subtle insults and jabs around. I'm just going to skip to what I feel are the core parts of this debate:
> 
> 
> 
> Juudara getting pierced by a blade is the one thing I'll give you, but it doesn't really erase the numerous other durability feats he has. Hell, you've listed some of them yourself. I don't think it's enormously inconsistent, and to me it's pretty clear what Kishimoto was trying to show in regards to his durability.



Never said it did. I only said that his durability is inconsistent, and then I even went to explain why Chidori Katana bisected him regardless of any possibly inconsistencies. 



> Even if you're correct, I'd hope you can at least see why these feats are sometimes misleading or confusing since you've admitted that they're inconsistent.


Read above.




> That's pretty much what I'm saying, yeah. His Chidori itself was said to be buffed by Hagoromo's power, so I don't find it unbelievable that his Chidori's sheer power is greater than what Guy could produce in the 8th Gate.



Except you have no proof for this. And I've already explained why bisecting Madara isn't proof that it's stronger than anything he took.




> [As for the Chidori used at VOTE, I stand by what I said about it not being the strongest Chidori Sasuke could produce. I'm not saying that it was "undercharged" per se, but rather that with fuller chakra reserves*, Sasuke is capable of putting more power into it than normal (hence the meteor explosion and cutting Juudara in half).*



Both are baseless assumptions. So you don't even have a reason to believe what you believe.




> Look. I'm not terribly opposed to believing that Sasuke's Chidori improved a lot during two years, but I am somewhat skeptical and I've laid out my reasoning for that.



You provided your reasoning, and I addressed every part of it. The only possible reason for you to stick with what you believe is because you want to regardless of what evidence says.


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## The Undying (Jul 8, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Except you have no proof for this.



I have no proof that Hagoromo's power is greater than 8th Gate Guy's? Are you actually questioning this?

Or are you saying I have no proof that Sasuke put Hagoromo's power into his Chidori, despite Sasuke _specifically saying it_?

Or do I have no proof that Juudara, who was left intact after an attack that had the strength to leave a deep tunnel in the planet, not to mention possessing fucking _Rikudou Senjutsu_ which is far more powerful than ordinary Senjutsu (something already flat-out stated to increase the user's durability to enormous heights), has godlike durability? Or that he was bisected by that same Chidori we've been discussing?

I've tried to be agreeable, but this obviously isn't going anywhere. I'm pretty much done here.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 8, 2015)

Didn't completely unmastered Rinnegan Sasuke destroyed Madara with the Shinju? I can't see how anything below that can win to any version of Rinnegan Sasuke, minus the tomoeless version.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 8, 2015)

The Undying said:


> I have no proof that Hagoromo's power is greater than 8th Gate Guy's? Are you actually questioning this?



No. You have no proof that Sasuke's Chidori Katana is more powerful than Gai's strongest attack. You sound mighty fucking foolish by saying it's stronger* just because *he used Hagoromo's chakra for it while Gai lacks that power.  I can show you techniques that don't use Hagromo's fucking chakra, yet am I going to go around saying that Chidori is weaker? No. Cause that is a stupid ass thing to say. If I used your logic:

-Chidori>Madara and Hashirama's strongest attacks combined because "lol Rikudo Chakra"
-Chidori>BSM Naruto's Flash Bijuu Dama, because "lol Rikudo Chakra"



> Or are you saying I have no proof that Sasuke put Hagoromo's power into his Chidori, despite Sasuke _specifically saying it_?


Nope. Please learn how to read and accurately interpret my point's. This is why argumentation with people like you can literally go nowhere. Because they:

-Ignore fact because they want to believe their own shitty ass opinion.
-Ignore fact because they don't want to admit they are wrong.
-Twist what was stated to make their own argument sound better or make their opponent's sound worse.



> Or do I have no proof that Juudara, who was left intact after an attack that had the strength to leave a deep tunnel in the planet, not to mention possessing fucking _Rikudou Senjutsu_ which is far more powerful than ordinary Senjutsu (something already flat-out stated to increase the user's durability to enormous heights), has godlike durability? Or that he was bisected by that same Chidori we've been discussing?



What's funny is that I already explained why this was the case, but instead of addressing it, you ignored it. An ignored argument is a conceded argument.

But I don't (nor did I) expect anything intelligent to come from any of your posts anyway.



> I've tried to be agreeable, but this obviously isn't going anywhere. I'm pretty much done here.



What you've done is ignore evidence, misinterpret posts, and give shitty reasons for your own beliefs. Instead of conceding, you walk away after leaving a garbage post behind. But hey, not surprised. 

Thanks for wasting my time.


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## The Undying (Jul 8, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No. You have no proof that Sasuke's Chidori Katana is more powerful than Gai's strongest attack. You sound mighty fucking foolish by saying it's stronger* just because *he used Hagoromo's chakra for it while Gai lacks that power.  I can show you techniques that don't use Hagromo's fucking chakra, yet am I going to go around saying that Chidori is weaker? No. Cause that is a stupid ass thing to say. If I used your logic:
> 
> -Chidori>Madara and Hashirama's strongest attacks combined because "lol Rikudo Chakra"
> -Chidori>BSM Naruto's Flash Bijuu Dama, because "lol Rikudo Chakra"



Too bad the text isn't even ambiguous. When Sasuke says that he's putting Hagoromo's power into Chidori, he flat-out uses the word "chikara" (power, strength, etc.). That's a statement that's infinitely more specific than just "using Hagoromo's chakra". He said he was using Hagoromo's STRENGTH, there's no _room_ for interpretation here. That is unless you believe that Hagoromo's power is weaker than Guy's, which is... well...

And yes, Rikudou Chidori is just that powerful. Why wouldn't it be?



> This is why argumentation with people like you can literally go nowhere. Because they:
> 
> -Ignore fact because they want to believe their own shitty ass opinion.
> -Ignore fact because they don't want to admit they are wrong.
> -Twist what was stated to make their own argument sound better or make their opponent's sound worse.



Alright. :ho



> What's funny is that I already explained why this was the case, but instead of addressing it, you ignored it. An ignored argument is a conceded argument.



It wasn't even an argument, really. You just said that Chidori Katana is a more focused attack, but the gap between blunt force damage and piercing damage is irrelevant in this case considering that Naruto's YRS, which sliced the Shinju in two, failed to bisect Madara. Moreover, that gap isn't going to be so great that someone whose body could remain intact after withstanding the sheer destruction caused by an Evening Elephant at point blank range is getting cut by the likes of a regular Chidori blade. The feat was clearly demonstrating Hagoromo's power, so why would I bother addressing a baseless point?



> Instead of conceding



What? No. I'm not going to concede to a point I simply don't agree with. I've conceded to a lot of your points, I've admitted that you've brought up some really solid arguments, I've even admitted that you could be right in regards to this whole thing about Sasuke's Chidori improving over two years, but I'm not convinced that you've actually refuted some of my main points. I'd like to think I've been fairly respectful towards you throughout this thread, but the fact that you're so quick to throw around petty insults based on a simple disagreement comes across as if you have a legitimate mental disorder, and that's mainly why I've been losing interest in continuing this discussion.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 9, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Too bad the text isn't even ambiguous. When Sasuke says that he's putting Hagoromo's power into Chidori, he flat-out uses the word "chikara" (power, strength, etc.). That's a statement that's infinitely more specific than just "using Hagoromo's chakra". He said he was using Hagoromo's STRENGTH, there's no _room_ for interpretation here. That is unless you believe that Hagoromo's power is weaker than Guy's, which is... well...



What's funny is that you've wasted all your time with this nonsense considering I never denied that he put Rikudo's chakra/power (And no, power and chakra are literally the same in this instance, unless you are going to tell me he made his Chidori out of something completely different than Chakra) into his Chidori. The rest has already been addressed. You already said you are done, so if you are just going to reply with the same stuff I've already countered, do us both a favor and....don't.



> And yes, Rikudou Chidori is just that powerful. Why wouldn't it be?



Because literally nothing proves it? Do you not know this works? You provide proof for your claims when you make them. I've posted proof for literally all my claims while you state "Chidori>Night Guy" with the argument "It's Hagoromo's chakra, why wouldn't it be?". Lmfao. Is that an argument? 

No. You have no proof that Sasuke's Chidori Katana is more powerful than Gai's strongest attack. You sound foolish by saying it's stronger just because he used Hagoromo's chakra for it while Gai lacks that power. I can show you techniques that don't use Hagromo's chakra, yet am I going to go around saying that Chidori is weaker? No. Cause that is a stupid thing to say. If I used your logic:

-Chidori>Madara and Hashirama's strongest attacks combined because "lol Rikudo Chakra"
-Chidori>BSM Naruto's Flash Bijuu Dama, because "lol Rikudo Chakra"

Do you honestly think that Chidori is stronger than BM Naruto's strongest Bijuu Dama? Do you honestly think that Chidori is stronger than Madara's 12 BD barrage and Hashirama's Chojo Kebutsu? All on the basis that "Rikudo's Chakra is supreme"? 

Smh. If you aren't going to address my post, don't reply. You are only wasting my time and your time at this point.



> It wasn't even an argument, really. You just said that Chidori Katana is a more focused attack, but the gap between blunt force damage and piercing damage is irrelevant in this case considering that Naruto's YRS, which sliced the Shinju in two, failed to bisect Madara.



The gap between focused and not focused damage is humongous, and completely relevant. Why are you mentioning YRS as if it's just as focused as Chidori? Or is that the next wonderful gem of a statement you are going to drop on me for my further amusement? 

YRS's blade is far larger than Chidori Katana. The latter bisected him while the former didn't. Which is stronger? Obviously YRS, but Chidori got him because Chidori is much stronger. Or are you going to say that Chidori, which is equal to Rasengan, is stronger than YRS? Cause then you'd be saying that Rasengan>YRS. 




> Moreover, that gap isn't going to be so great that someone whose body could remain intact after withstanding the sheer destruction caused by an Evening Elephant at point blank range is getting cut by the likes of a regular Chidori blade. The feat was clearly demonstrating Hagoromo's power, so why would I bother addressing a baseless point?





Are you joking? I literally brought up points that replicate the same exact scenario. Killer B remains intact after his Bijuu Dama explodes in his face. Yet Kokuo and pierce his body. Madara was about to pierce his body w/ a Susanoo Blade. Obito cut off his tails with mere Shuriken. Sasuke used Chidori Katana to cut his tentacles. Does that mean we are going to say:

-Shuriken>BD?
-Chidori>BD?
-Kokuo's horn attack>BD?

No. It's because the attack was far, more, focused. I cannot make this any simpler than I already have. If you are going to reply, don't reply with the same stuff that has already been addressed, especially when you yourself decided to ignore the counter.

Don't call it baseless when it's either you not being able to understand it not wanting to understand it is the only reason you don't agree.

Then there's the fact that Chidori and Rasengan's visual displays of power are inferior to what Chidori alone did in The Last. Then there's the fact that Chidori's display of power is inferior to what Evening Elephant and Night Guy did during Gai's fight with Madara. So I'm curious, where in the world are you getting this "Chidori>Night Guy" stuff from? Cause it certainly isn't the Manga.




> What? No. I'm not going to concede to a point I simply don't agree with. I've conceded to a lot of your points, I've admitted that you've brought up some really solid arguments, I've even admitted that you could be right in regards to this whole thing about Sasuke's Chidori improving over two years, but I'm not convinced that you've actually refuted some of my main points. I'd like to think I've been fairly respectful towards you throughout this thread, but the fact that you're so quick to throw around petty insults based on a simple disagreement comes across as if you have a legitimate mental disorder, and that's mainly why I've been losing interest in continuing this discussion.



The *only *reason you haven't conceded is because *you don't want to*. It's really that simple. If there was a legit reason why you don't agree, you would've actually countered my points with your own reasoning instead of straight up ignoring them, only to pretend that you have. I didn't post an argument for you to ignore it. 

I didn't insult you. Lol. I insulted *your argumentation*.  Please learn the difference before complaining about it. It's funny how you talk about being respectful when in a debate (or any form of discussion) it's common courtesy to NOT ignore what someone is saying/typing and to address it in full if it's some kind of debate/discussion.


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## The Undying (Jul 9, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> What's funny is that you've wasted all your time with this nonsense considering I never denied that he put Rikudo's chakra/power (And no, power and chakra are literally the same in this instance, unless you are going to tell me he made his Chidori out of something completely different than Chakra) into his Chidori. The rest has already been addressed. You already said you are done, so if you are just going to reply with the same stuff I've already countered, do us both a favor and....don't.



...what?

I never said that it wasn't Hagoromo's chakra, I said that Sasuke's statement (i.e. the text itself) was more specific about what his Rikudou Chidori entailed. "Chikara" directly refers to the quantity of one's strength/power/might, it isn't _just_ a statement about the type of chakra used. It was a Chidori imbued with Hagoromo's strength. The dialogue, at the very least, confirms that Sasuke's Rikudou Chidori > Sasuke's regular Chidori.

I don't get why this is seemingly so hard for you to understand. Hagoromo's strength is obviously greater than Guy's strength, or anyone else's strength that you've listed. Rikudou's chakra is supreme (in terms of power, at least) because it was stated to be supreme via likening it to Hagoromo's strength level. It's pretty unambiguous.

I'm not shrugging your arguments off simply because this is what I want to believe; if you want my personal opinion, I've been pretty spiteful of all these ridiculous power-ups that came about during the end of the war arc. I just don't think you've made a convincing case against this point in particular.




> The gap between focused and not focused damage is humongous, and completely relevant. Why are you mentioning YRS as if it's just as focused as Chidori? Or is that the next wonderful gem of a statement you are going to drop on me for my further amusement?



I mentioned YRS because its surrounding blades cut the Shinju in half. That means we would have to take into account its cutting power, not just its size, meaning Juudara is also resistant to cutting damage. My argument is that the reason Chidori bisected him is because its cutting strength was enhanced with Hagoromo's power, as I certainly don't see Sasuke replicating the same feat before his Rikudou power-up. Can I _prove_ that? No, but I'm confident that I can infer it based on the examples I've compared.

Why does it matter if an attack is more "focused" anyway? If attack A harms the opponent more than attack B, A is clearly a stronger attack in relation to the opponent's durability. Rikudou Chidori _harmed_ Juudara, or at least caused greater damage to his body than Evening Elephant. Appealing to the difference between blunt force damage and cutting damage literally doesn't change the fact that one was much more effective than the other.



> I didn't insult you. Lol. I insulted *your argumentation*.



I don't know about you, but I'd qualify insulting someone's intelligence as pretty indicative of insulting someone as a person. The least you can do is be more polite, otherwise I don't have time for this.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 9, 2015)

The Undying said:


> ...what?
> 
> I never said that it wasn't Hagoromo's chakra, I said that Sasuke's statement (i.e. the text itself) was more specific about what his Rikudou Chidori entailed. "Chikara" directly refers to the quantity of one's strength/power/might, it isn't _just_ a statement about the type of chakra used. It was a Chidori imbued with Hagoromo's strength. *The dialogue, at the very least, confirms that Sasuke's Rikudou Chidori > Sasuke's regular Chidori*.



The bold might be true (Assuming you are referring to Rikudo Sasuke's Black Chidori and Rikudo Sasuke's Regular Chidori), but it does not prove your point. "Chikara" is the Japanese term for power. Power and chakra are literally the same thing. To put the nail in the coffin, Sasuke said he'll "use the Six Paths Power" and made a Chidori. Thus that is a Chidori made from Hagoromo's chakra. Not sure what you are even going on about here, but it's clear that you made this all up. "Imbued with Hagoromo's strength"? What do you even mean by that, specifically? I hope you aren't implying what you think I'm implying. 

Hell, he only did that for his Black Chidori. Not his Chidori Katana. So where did this argument even come from? It's irrelevant. If you want to say that his Chidori Katana was imbued with said power too then you'd have to also say that every Chidori he has ever used has been the same since his Chidori Katana was not black. And I've already shown feats of an enhanced black flame Chidori being weaker than Evening Elephant let alone Night Guy. So either we, you don't have an argument.



> I don't get why this is seemingly so hard for you to understand. Hagoromo's strength is obviously greater than Guy's strength, or anyone else's strength that you've listed. Rikudou's chakra is supreme (in terms of power, at least) because it was stated to be supreme via likening it to Hagoromo's strength level. It's pretty unambiguous.


No, what is so hard for you to understand? Lmao. You keep repeating the same thing over and over while blatantly ignoring examples I've already provided. Sasuke's Chidori having Hagoromo's chakra in it doesn't make it stronger than every single technique without said power. Stop saying "Hagoromo's strength" when the text and the events that occurred clearly show that they are referring to CHAKRA type and chakra alone. Not Hagoromo's literal full strength. 

Are you going to tell me that Sasuke's Chidori is stronger than every single non Rikudo boosted attack? Yes or no. Answer the question. This is the 3rd time you've ignored it. 



> No. You have no proof that Sasuke's Chidori Katana is more powerful than Gai's strongest attack. You sound foolish by saying it's stronger just because he used Hagoromo's chakra for it while Gai lacks that power. I can show you techniques that don't use Hagromo's chakra, yet am I going to go around saying that Chidori is weaker? No. Cause that is a stupid thing to say. If I used your logic:
> 
> -Chidori>Madara and Hashirama's strongest attacks combined because "lol Rikudo Chakra"
> -Chidori>BSM Naruto's Flash Bijuu Dama, because "lol Rikudo Chakra"
> ...






> I mentioned YRS because its surrounding blades cut the Shinju in half. That means we would have to take into account its cutting power, not just its size, meaning Juudara is also resistant to cutting damage. My argument is that the reason Chidori bisected him is because its cutting strength was enhanced with Hagoromo's power, as I certainly don't see Sasuke replicating the same feat before his Rikudou power-up. Can I _prove_ that? No, but I'm confident that I can infer it based on the examples I've compared.


I don't know why you are mentioning Pre Rikudo Power Up Sasuke. We are talking about Rikudo Sasuke. Obviously his Chidori is much stronger. Him being resistant to cutting damage is besides the point of focused attack vs. not as focused attack.



> Why does it matter if an attack is more "focused" anyway? If attack A harms the opponent more than attack B, A is clearly a stronger attack in relation to the opponent's durability. Rikudou Chidori _harmed_ Juudara, or at least caused greater damage to his body than Evening Elephant. Appealing to the difference between blunt force damage and cutting damage literally doesn't change the fact that one was much more effective than the other.


Why does it matter? Pressure is exactly why it matters. A man can lay on a bed of nails and not get pierced. Yet he can't lay on one nail w/o getting pierced. Does that mean that nail>bed of nails when it comes to total energy output? No. It's because a single nail puts pressure on a smaller area than a bed of nails. It's not even just about "blunt vs. cutting" as some cutting and piercing attacks aren't as focused as others.

Chou Shinra Tensei wiped out the whole Konoha and turned it to a crater. Yet Raikiri would run through the Katsuyu clones that tanked the attack. Is Raikiri>>>>Chou Shinra Tensei? Obviously not. Chou Shinra Tensei was nowhere near as focused as Raikiri, thus the targets only take a tiny fraction of it's power.

I can't even believe I'm reading this now tbh. If someone tears through Hachibi's body and vtials with a susanoo blade, like Madara was about to do in canon, does that mean that Susanoo Blade>>Bijuu Dama, which Hachibi survived? No.Then there's every single example I listed in my other post, that you blatantly ignored, yet you sit here and have the nerve to try and tell me that I'm not making convincing enough arguments.  If you have no counter then they are convincing enough.



> Are you joking? I literally brought up points that replicate the same exact scenario. Killer B remains intact after his Bijuu Dama explodes in his face. Yet Kokuo and pierce his body. Madara was about to pierce his body w/ a Susanoo Blade. Obito cut off his tails with mere Shuriken. Sasuke used Chidori Katana to cut his tentacles. Does that mean we are going to say:
> 
> *-Shuriken>BD?
> -Chidori>BD?
> -Kokuo's horn attack>BD?*







> I don't know about you, but I'd qualify insulting someone's intelligence as pretty indicative of insulting someone as a person. The least you can do is be more polite, otherwise I don't have time for this.



Never insulted your intelligence. Smart people can say stupid things. Saying that what they said is stupid doesn't mean that they are stupid. Though what I suggest to you is to actually address all of my post instead of ignoring stuff and not countering it, cause once again, here you are, saying stuff I've already replied to without countering my actual reply.

If you reply again. Address everything, not just what you feel like addressing.


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