# Bruce Lee vs. Muhammad Ali



## Jensei-kun (Nov 18, 2005)

Who would win out of the legendary kung fu master vs. the acclaimed God of Boxing? What say you?


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## Jedi Mind Tricks (Nov 18, 2005)

Muhammad Ali for the win.

Muhammad Ali is my hero, Bruce Lee is an entertaining actor.


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## Jensei-kun (Nov 18, 2005)

*I see*

I'd have to disagree, I think Bruce Lee whilse being an actor is one of his admirable skills, is an incredible philospher and artist. Proof is in the styles and teachings he has created. His technique is seen as some as inhumane, perhaps the closest to human physical perfection we have seen to date.


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## Yamato (Inactive) (Nov 18, 2005)

Bruce Lee all the way.


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## kuromoku (Nov 18, 2005)

Bruce Lee is not a entertainer man he has created Jet Kun Do and it is famous .
my dad has the book of him and it is about how you focus atention .
its great man you should take one and read.


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## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 18, 2005)

Bruce Lee would win. he is the strongest of martial arts... it's already thread before I made here... Bruce Lee vs. Muhammed Ali

from Mister Poll:


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## Rice Ball (Nov 18, 2005)

90% of the people who post here would have never seen Ali fight, and have seen Bruce Lee in action films...


Anyway

Ali would win, Bruce can't do anything about the Size AND Speed difference.


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## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 18, 2005)

nope, I watched Ali Muhammad VHS for my dad is collection...
I have seen Bruce Lee Chinese Story VHS, omg! he is very fast to 3 kicks in 1.5 sec. I repeatly watched...wtf.. it's really fastest. 

rules: Ali doesn't know how to kick...


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## ~ Masamune ~ (Nov 18, 2005)

Lol reminded me off Baki the grappler,Boxing isn't martial arts: that's when the heavyweight champion got his asskicked in a "real" fight. ANYWAYS,back on topic Bruce Lee steals the honey from the bee it's obvious,he wins!


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## TGC (Nov 18, 2005)

Yea lee would win, I'm a big Ali fan but Lee is just too good for anyone...


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## Skoemie (Nov 18, 2005)

well what you saw in the movies of bruce ain't treu... the story is they slowed the movie down because he was too fast... and his impact was byond normal and his punches where his strongest asset, in movies you see more of his kicks because of the looks but his punches where deadly (acording too my dad)


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## BladeofTheChad (Nov 18, 2005)

This is mroe onesided than Goku vs. Itachi....Bruce Lee for the win.


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## konflikti (Nov 18, 2005)

Ali wins. More reach, more power behind hits. Has competed lot more than Bruce.


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## Rice Ball (Nov 18, 2005)

Bruce himself has said how great Ali's footwork and speed are, gotta also remember with this speed and movement he also hits like a freight train.


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## acritarch (Nov 18, 2005)

lol, I like how the people in this thread who have seen the tyson vs lee and other fights of similar nature are the only logical ones. Ali ftw. heh (we all know bruce will get like 90% of the votes though)


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## Id (Nov 18, 2005)

Just one Direct blow from Ali would crumble Lee.  But Ali is Human and Bruce is no slouch so he has a small chance (Im a huge fan Of Lee). Vary Unlikely for Lee to win but possible.


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## Sendo (Nov 19, 2005)

Since Ali was a professional boxer his body was conditioned to take shots... and we definitely know that he could give shots... and we definitely know that he can defend against shots also (dodge/block)

Now i know Bruce Lee was very revolutionary in his time, and i do know that he has come up with many amazing philosophies, but i also believe the he is overrated in his physical prowess...

while he may have strong attacks i do not find it easy for him to break threw Ali's defense. Also Ali is a big black dude while Lee is a tiny asian guy...

I am sad to say (as a martial artist) that Ali would take this one...


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## Quoll (Nov 20, 2005)

Bruce Lee all the way. For those who question his toughness, he was semi known for streetfighting before he came to the US. I have seen Ali fight, but I don't know how he'd fare in a unsanctioned fight. If he doesn't have some experience w/ bare-knuckle fighting he'd break his hand quick and well...fight over.


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## blues (Nov 20, 2005)

Quoll said:
			
		

> If he doesn't have some experience w/ bare-knuckle fighting he'd break his hand quick and well...fight over.



Actually, he'd probbaly cause serious and permanent damage to his opponent.


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## Jensei-kun (Nov 20, 2005)

Ali may have reach and power, and demonstrates great footwork true. But I think Lee's defensive inutition would enable him to quickly exploit ali's 'weakness'. But still, we'll never reallly know huh. Cheers and kudos to 2 of the worlds greatest sportsmen, entertainers and pioneers in their own right.


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## Deleted member 15401 (Nov 20, 2005)

Sendo said:
			
		

> Since Ali was a professional boxer his body was conditioned to take shots...



yeah, but he takes shots above the waist and in front of the face ;p noone in boxings ever booted him in the back of the head ahah


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## Chamcham Trigger (Nov 20, 2005)

I hear this one all the time, from old dudes.  I give it to Bruce Lee.


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## Last of the Uchihas (Nov 20, 2005)

Bruce lee would win


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## Quoll (Nov 20, 2005)

blues said:
			
		

> Actually, he'd probbaly cause serious and permanent damage to his opponent.



While he would do damage, he would most likely break his hand w/o gloves by swinging full force. If his opponent isn't taken out by that hit he'd have a serious handicap.


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## Sendo (Nov 20, 2005)

Quoll said:
			
		

> While he would do damage, he would most likely break his hand w/o gloves by swinging full force. If his opponent isn't taken out by that hit he'd have a serious handicap.



id say hed probably break is wrist... because boxers always wear wraps around the wrists to keep it straight.... they never practice with them off.... they even run with them....


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## Kamendex (Nov 20, 2005)

How sad....people think Bruce Lee would win because of what they see in his movies and from what unresourceful people say about him...

I bet if I started a rumor that Rosie O'Donnell can run a 4 minute mile...all the naive people would believe it because they dont bother looking at the facts...they like to believe what they hear.

Has anyone even seen a documented Bruce Lee fight? All I know is, he has had two known fights. One was against a cook, in which he lost, and one was against a martial arts student, in which he lost.

Muhammad Ali would rape Bruce Lee.


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## Id (Nov 20, 2005)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> How sad....people think Bruce Lee would win because of what they see in his movies and from what unresourceful people say about him...
> 
> I bet if I started a rumor that Rosie O'Donnell can run a 4 minute mile...all the naive people would believe it because they dont bother looking at the facts...they like to believe what they hear.
> 
> ...




Prob did lose, So has Ali. Its not sad to think that a man as small as Lee could take on some one like Ali, you can overrate him or underrate him. But the truth is he trained to the max of his abillities (the man ran 3 or more miles, practiced and progressed his style of martial arts, and trained with weiths and dead lifts.) Weather you want to debate if he was an entertainer or a martial artist remains to ones personal opinion.

But I still think Ali would tap that ass.


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## jemakai (Nov 20, 2005)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> How sad....people think Bruce Lee would win because of what they see in his movies and from what unresourceful people say about him...
> 
> I bet if I started a rumor that Rosie O'Donnell can run a 4 minute mile...all the naive people would believe it because they dont bother looking at the facts...they like to believe what they hear.
> 
> ...



This is an anime form, I would guess most of the guys who say Bruce will win also think they can become a ninja with magical powers if they train every day.
In hype world bruce Lee win win because he is composed mostly of hype, in reality he would loose badly against a PROVEN fighter like Ali.  It really is a shame that so many people lack common sense.



			
				Id said:
			
		

> Prob did lose, So has Ali. Its not sad to think that a man as small as Lee could take on some one like Ali, you can overrate him or underrate him. But the truth is he trained to the max of his abillities (the man ran 3 or more miles, practiced and progressed his style of martial arts, and trained with weiths and dead lifts.) Weather you want to debate if he was an entertainer or a martial artist remains to ones personal opinion.
> 
> But I still think Ali would tap that ass.



The difference is Ali lost to some of the greatest fighters of the last century, Bruce lost against.....I don't even know their names.

Training all day means little(better proof would be his fight records against pro's), I am sure Ali also trained to his max potential so I don't see your point.  Bruce Lee was an entertainer who practiced his own form of martial arts, he never really proved himself like Ali so one can't say he was at the same level in terms of proven ability to take on high level opponents.
Atleast you live in reality, hell Bruce probably would never take this fight or would try and disengage as soon as possible if it where a street fight.


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## Kamendex (Nov 20, 2005)

jemakai said:
			
		

> This is an anime form, I would guess most of the guys who say Bruce will win also think they can become a ninja with magical powers if they train every day.
> In hype world bruce Lee win win because he is composed mostly of hype, in reality he would loose badly against a PROVEN fighter like Ali.  It really is a shame that so many people lack common sense.



Verryyyy True.


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## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 20, 2005)

jemakai said:
			
		

> This is an anime form, I would guess most of the guys who say Bruce will win also think they can become a ninja with magical powers if they train every day.
> In hype world bruce Lee win win because he is composed mostly of hype, in reality he would loose badly against a PROVEN fighter like Ali.  It really is a shame that so many people lack common sense.
> 
> 
> ...


Anime forum? Magical Power? LOL :rofl :rofl :rofl... another boxing forum poll: Lee would win, see here...
Bruce Lee vs Ali Muhammed, I think you don't have seen Bruce Lee biographical story for video...not movie,... he is greatest fighter in real life...

see here..
(Boxing Forum) Bruce Lee vs Muhammed Ali [Bruce Lee would win]

(Killermovies) Bruce Lee vs Muhammed Ali [Bruce Lee would win]

BTW, I'm big fan of both greatest fighters, but Lee is master punch and kick... my dad says bruce lee would win, and world peoples says bruce lee would win


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## pnoypridz (Nov 20, 2005)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> How sad....people think Bruce Lee would win because of what they see in his movies and from what unresourceful people say about him...
> 
> I bet if I started a rumor that Rosie O'Donnell can run a 4 minute mile...all the naive people would believe it because they dont bother looking at the facts...they like to believe what they hear.
> 
> ...



seriously i dont know y this people thing bruce lee would win reps for u


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## konflikti (Nov 20, 2005)

No offense, but most comments on those forums that seem even somewhat educated are giving it to Ali. This isn't about the opinion of the uninformed mass, this is about who is gonna beat who. You can present any amount of polls but they don't change the result, unless you somehow prove that the voters knew what they were voting.


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## Id (Nov 20, 2005)

jemakai said:
			
		

> This is an anime form, I would guess most of the guys who say Bruce will win also think they can become a ninja with magical powers if they train every day.
> In hype world bruce Lee win win because he is composed mostly of hype, in reality he would loose badly against a PROVEN fighter like Ali.  It really is a shame that so many people lack common sense.
> 
> 
> ...



Ok ppl overestamaite Bruce lee. But thats no reason to underestamte him as well. 

Truth is he did practice martial arts, every day. And he was a workout Freak. That he became a famos actor was just the right timing and luck by his part (his father being an entertainer also helped).

If training everyday proves vary lil why dont you go out and challange someone who just practices boxing to fight. 

PPl just dont train every day with that type of intensity and gain nothing just be-couse you say so.

Any how Ali 8/10.


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## Kamendex (Nov 20, 2005)

JKD is more of a philosophy than it is an actual combat system.

Bruce Lee deserves respect as a great thinker and philosopher but he was not super awesome ninja master. Yes he pretty much rehashed Chinese culture for America and then took credit but hey...he did introduce mainstream culture to the martial arts and chinese culture.

Bruce Lee was just a guy. I happen to enjoy his handful of writings and think he was a good philosopher but I am aware that he was not the uberest fighter in the world as history would have you believe.


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## jemakai (Nov 20, 2005)

Id said:
			
		

> Ok ppl overestamaite Bruce lee. But thats no reason to underestamte him as well.
> 
> Truth is he did practice martial arts, every day. And he was a workout Freak. That he became a famos actor was just the right timing and luck by his part (his father being an entertainer also helped).
> 
> ...


I said training means little in this situation, he is up against some one who trained to his max potential aswell so pointing out Bruce lee "trained" is meaningless.  I am sure alot of people train all day, that doesn't give them a win against Ali.  In addition to that actual documented fighting matches are much more significant then simply training every day, Bruce Lee himself said that punching bags don't punch back.

I would say Ali 9/10, that one fight is the slim chance that Bruce gets lucky and Ali just gets out of bed.


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## Kamendex (Nov 20, 2005)

Lain Iwakura said:
			
		

> BTW, I'm big fan of both greatest fighters, but Lee is master punch and kick... my dad says bruce lee would win, and world peoples says bruce lee would win



Clue 1 that your wrong...your daddy tells you who would win, hence your biased and you would back your daddy's words till the end

Clue 2, the majority of the world is stupid, which is why there is no such thing as a true democracy, the world is stupid except for a select few...

and that select few happen to understand that Ali would win


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## Id (Nov 20, 2005)

jemakai said:
			
		

> I said training means little in this situation, he is up against some one who trained to his max potential aswell so pointing out Bruce lee "trained" is meaningless.  I am sure alot of people train all day, that doesn't give them a win against Ali.  In addition to that actual documented fighting matches are much more significant then simply training every day, Bruce Lee himself said that punching bags don't punch back.
> 
> I would say Ali 9/10, that one fight is the slim chance that Bruce gets lucky and Ali just gets out of bed.




Ok you talk about documentation this and that. Truth is Bruce Lee would kick your ass 
8/10 
why b-cus its documented that he trained to kick your ass.

Ok now that I got that out of the way. No one can predict the outcome of a fight. Anything can happen. And becuse in essence Bruce trained to fight in any situation, that  is the vary reason why "He" would have a greater chance  of beating Ali. than any regular shmoe. 

Kick in the neck.
Hitting the temple of your head.
Strait kick in the chest 

Are just some vital points that any "Human" would bring down. If me whos bien in more than a handfull of fights know this, Im sure some one like Bruce Lee would know about them too. (and much more)

(Oh and for the record Im not denying that Lee would get his ass handed to him, Im just deffending him the fact that Lee was an accomplished martial artist.)


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## ez (Nov 20, 2005)

Bruce Lee no doubt.


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## Crowe (Nov 20, 2005)

Bruce Lee were a great martial artist, but not the best as some of you might think. He had a long way to go before he would be able to claim himself as the strongest. While Muhammed Ali was *the strongest*, in his weight class.


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## Id (Nov 20, 2005)

peK said:
			
		

> Bruce Lee were a great martial artist, but not the best as some of you might think. He had a long way to go before he would be able to claim himself as the strongest. While Muhammed Ali was *the strongest*, in his weight class.




Finally some one that see my point. I really don?t know why some ppl are so obsessed with Bruce lee, some claim him to be the best martial artist, other claim him to be a fake. And use whatever neg outcomes in his life to disregard all his hard work. 

But the truth is and documented, he applied heavily at what he did to see results. 

His exacts words.

?Willing is not enough you must do,
Knowing is not enough you must apply?

Bruce Lee

There is no doubt that Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr. was the best in its class, in its time.


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## CABLE (Nov 20, 2005)

I really wish iaido aka God of Pwnage were here right now to make everyone who said Bruce Lee would win feel like a complete idiot.  However I will try my best to do what he used to do so well.



> I'd have to disagree, I think Bruce Lee whilse being an actor is one of his admirable skills, is an incredible philospher and artist. Proof is in the styles and teachings he has created. His technique is seen as some as inhumane, perhaps the closest to human physical perfection we have seen to date.



Bruce Lee was 5'8" and lean, not physical perfection and especialy when he is up against 6'3" with a weight of around 236 lbs. and an 83" reach.  His technique wasn't inhumane, only in his movies where he would let out his screeches as he jumped on his opponents.  Also nothing you have presented is any merit to Lee beating Ali.



> Bruce Lee is not a*n* entertainer man*,* he has created Je*e*t Kun Do and it is famous. *M*y dad has the book of him and it is about how you focus at*t*ention .  *I*t*'*s great man you should take one and read.



I took the liberty of correcting your horrible spelling and grammar so your arguement can at least suck rather than being a piece of shit.  Jeet Kun Do, the way of the intercepting fist, is a philosophy based upon the principles of  Chinese martial arts that Bruce used.  Also, fuck your dad, I don't care what he thinks.



> nope, I watched Ali Muhammad VHS for my dad is collection...
> I have seen Bruce Lee Chinese Story VHS, omg! he is very fast to 3 kicks in 1.5 sec. I repeatly watched...wtf.. it's really fastest.



I don't even want to waste time correcting this pile of shit.  Three 'fast' kicks could be evaded or blocked by someone as quick and strong as Ali.  And its not as though he would just let Lee kick him.  



> Bruce Lee all the way. For those who question his toughness, he was semi known for streetfighting before he came to the US. I have seen Ali fight, but I don't know how he'd fare in a unsanctioned fight. If he doesn't have some experience w/ bare-knuckle fighting he'd break his hand quick and well...fight over.



Who is questioning his toughness?  He is tough but he could not defeat Ali.  Are you really convinced the fact that Bruce Lee was in 'street' fights, that Muhammad Ali couldn't beat him.  Gloves or no gloves Ali would fuck Bruce up.  There's a reason why there are weight classes, so fighters have equal matchups.  For example, Oscar De La Hoya was a great fighter, but in the lightweight class.  He couldn't he take on someone, even one of the lesser heavyweights in a fight.  Bruce would be a light, maybe featherweight fighter whereas Ali was a heavyweight.  As for him being able to break his hand, that just fucking stupid.

I could really expand on this and go farther, but that isn't needed seeing as how badly all your arguements suck.


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## Deleted member 15401 (Nov 21, 2005)

boxers arent trained to defend their lower bodies.. below the waist anyway

who says bruce is going to fight fair? i mean.. what happens when he swings a low kick in the direction of ali's kneecap? he can kick pretty fast, and if that a hit like that connected, its game overrrrrrrr

*edit*
just read the above post

fuck, hiko.. you sound like a wifebeater or something. LOL


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## Id (Nov 21, 2005)

To the ppl that say that Bruce lee would win against Ali should go back and watch some of his fights. But to say he is unbeatble is false. 

What really ticks me off is how some ppl would embrace Lee as a martial arts God, while others look down on him as he was just some regular shmoe.

Lee (may his soul rest in peace) should be given respect, and porper homage to his accomplishments despite if thier is documantation of him lossing to a studen/cheff.

There is plenty of documentation of how Lee is regarded and respected as a true martial artist. He was one of Yip Mans highest ranking student.

And he when he oppeaned a martial arts school he was challanged challenge by Chinese elders in the region in response to his teaching Asian "secrets" to westerners.

Those are documented facts as well. 

I mean why fight Ignorace with Ignorance?


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## CABLE (Nov 21, 2005)

hjkou said:
			
		

> boxers arent trained to defend their lower bodies.. below the waist anyway
> 
> who says bruce is going to fight fair? i mean.. what happens when he swings a low kick in the direction of ali's kneecap? he can kick pretty fast, and if that a hit like that connected, its game overrrrrrrr
> 
> ...



A wifebeater?  Interesting.


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## jemakai (Nov 21, 2005)

Id said:
			
		

> Ok you talk about documentation this and that. Truth is Bruce Lee would kick your ass
> 8/10
> why b-cus its documented that he trained to kick your ass.



This just makes me think you are an idiot, and this is indeed now documented for all the see unlike Lee fighting any real matches.



			
				Id said:
			
		

> Ok now that I got that out of the way. No one can predict the outcome of a fight. Anything can happen. And becuse in essence Bruce trained to fight in any situation, that  is the vary reason why "He" would have a greater chance  of beating Ali. than any regular shmoe.
> 
> Kick in the neck.
> Hitting the temple of your head.
> ...



Was Bruce Lee your uncle or something?  Your defending him against attacks that were never thrown against him in this thread.  We are not talking about a regular person off the street so there is no point in even bringing this up.

Bruce was an accomplished martial artist?  What is meant by that?  He didn't prove himself against other martial artist in any tournement nor was a world champion so I guess your "accomplished" must mean something else.


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## CABLE (Nov 21, 2005)

Yes, I was going to point the fact out that Lee never competed in competitions so his skill couldn't really be tested, he kind of just made himself seems as though he was 'too good' for competitions.


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## uncle jafuncle (Nov 21, 2005)

Lee may be more suited to streetfighting and have the advantage of famialarity with the realm of "anything goes" but With Ali's size, strength and speed the boxing champ has a lot of room for error.

Lee makes one mistake that throws off his game: Ali gets a one punch K.O.(maybe two or three since Bruce was known to be quite resilient)

Ali makes one mistake: Lee better take full advantage and bring Ali off his feet or grapple him because standing fights don't go too well for Ali's opponents.



Fights are unpredictable, but I'd say Ali would win 7/10.

Equal fighting skills, speed/agility, and toughness most likely, but Ali has the physical advantage and hitting power that tips the scales.


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## CABLE (Nov 21, 2005)

Some pussy neg repped me without leaving their name beacause of the fact I made everyone who tried to back up Bruce Lee look like a fool.  Like I care, 7 points of repping power doesn't really hurt.


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## Quoll (Nov 21, 2005)

Master Hiko said:
			
		

> Some pussy neg repped me without leaving their name beacause of the fact I made everyone who tried to back up Bruce Lee look like a fool.  Like I care, 7 points of repping power doesn't really hurt.



When you start throwing insults into a response that's gonna happen. They could always type someone elses name when repping so that doesn't even matter. If anything you sound like a fool more than anyone you responded to. The guy whose style you claim to mimick does a better job at debating anyway. And if you don't care, don't post about how you don't care.


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## CABLE (Nov 21, 2005)

This isn't about me, this topic is about Lee vs. Ali.  So gimme a rebuttle, if my 'style' or what not is not good.  Prove to me that Lee can win.  And now I know who negged me.


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## Quoll (Nov 21, 2005)

Master Hiko said:
			
		

> This isn't about me, this topic is about Lee vs. Ali.  So gimme a rebuttle, if my 'style' or what not is not good.  Prove to me that Lee can win.  And now I know who negged me.



Wasn't making it about you, just annoyed at you making an issue of something you don't care about in the thread. I didn't give a rebuttal b/c I haven't found a way to prove what I want to say while anyone can just point to Ali being a pro boxer.


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## CABLE (Nov 21, 2005)

But seriously, If you think Lee can take out Ali, you

a. have been watching too much shounen anime ie. little guy always takes out big guy
or
b. know nothing about either of them.


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## Quoll (Nov 21, 2005)

Seeing a video of Lee using the 1-inch punch made me a believer.


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## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 21, 2005)

Bruce Lee isn't first actor...Bruce Lee is first really fighter turned Actor...
Bruce Lee was younger with trained Master and Father....

ALL NOT ABOUT MOVIE....


			
				Quoll said:
			
		

> Seeing a video of Lee using the 1-inch punch made me a believer.


yep, I know... I have seen Bruce Lee Biographical Video...


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## konflikti (Nov 21, 2005)

You know, 1-inch punch is cool and all that, but I wouldn't really want to stand that close to Ali. The range and power advantage of Ali is too much for Lee to overcome. A basic punch from Ali probably has similar range of Lee's kick. I don't see him kicking Alis legs while Ali is throwing punches towards him, because you need to stay pretty still while kicking if you want to actually hit something that's is as good in moving as Ali. And somehow disabling Ali's legs is in my opinion the only way to victory for Bruce Lee.


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## Rice Ball (Nov 21, 2005)

As expected


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## Nihonjin (Nov 21, 2005)

Ali = Faster (footwork)
Ali = longer reach
Ali = Stronger
Ali = More endurance

No way he'd lose....
Bruce lee is strong and all....but get real <_<
Ali survived a full hit to the head from George Foreman who supposedly KO'd a cow with his deadly right hand.....No way in hell some small chinese dude would be able to take Ali down


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## CABLE (Nov 21, 2005)

Guys, you fail to realize that movies beef up and make martial arts alot more glamorous than they really are.


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## Id (Nov 21, 2005)

> This just makes me think you are an idiot, and this is indeed now documented for all the see unlike Lee fighting any real matches.



What?......think before you type. And when you type. Type Slowly.



> Was Bruce Lee your uncle or something? Your defending him against attacks that were never thrown against him in this thread. We are not talking about a regular person off the street so there is no point in even bringing this up.
> 
> Bruce was an accomplished martial artist? What is meant by that? He didn't prove himself against other martial artist in any tournement nor was a world champion so I guess your "accomplished" must mean something else.



For every Documented fight that he lost that you take as evidence of “Lee” not living up to his hype. There must be like hundreds of documented facts that state he was a vary dedicated martial artist. Maybe you should go back and read his bio or something, because I don’t see what’s your personal grudge against him?

Any how here;

1.He used kicks to the head. If he did not use them (like some people claim) he would not train for them. Kicks to the head CAN be very effective, especially roundhouse kicks. I have seen hundreds of fights. I haven’t seen anyone take a good roundhouse kick to the head and not go down. Even a tough fighter like Don Frye could not survive against a good roundhouse kick thrown to him by Jerome Le Banner.

2. He was one of the first to use boxing training methods and protective equipment in sparring.

3. He explained why a technique is effective before he taught it. Back then, in other martial arts, you either accepted tradition or you were out of the school.

4. He trained his punches and kicks against live targets (like focus gloves) or against the fearsome body bag. The noise of a snapping gi was not enough for him. He had to know that his attacks were effective.

5. He was the first martial arts master that stressed the importance of a cardiovascular workout. He was really tired of seeing big-bellied masters that would not last a single round against a boxer in a ring. For Bruce, the best kind of endurance and cardiovascular training was running.

6. Most martial arts make a common mistake in their training. They train their students against attacks that are used in a stiff and robot-like manner. No enemy ever attacks like that. And you can be sure that most attackers will not attack you with a reverse punch or using a traditional martial arts move. Bruce trained his students against boxing punches and tae kwon do kicks.


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## HOKAGEKYZRE (Nov 21, 2005)

counters voala...

yeah kicks to the head feckin' hurt...but seriously...boxers fight thru that kinda stuff all the time...ive been kicked in the head with roundhouse kicks before...by dudes that know what the hell they're doing and tryin to kill me in china...ali could easily duck those types of things...he's no idiot(like me)...

because lee used boxing training methods and technique in his own training that would give ali yet another advantage...he is familiar with the techniques lee is likely to use...

you know whats funny about lee and tradition???he totally boned it in the ass...so i dont wanna hear about lees tradition...and are you assuming western boxers know nothing about tradition or technique???

boxers use live tergets and all freakin kindsa bags...alls im hearing is that lee copied the training methods from boxers...

running is basically the worst workout a fighter could do...it doesnt resemble the type of cardio movement in combat what so ever...which is more stop and go...like tides or something...and once again...nothin boxers havent done for ages...(though they use it for weight control among other things, not for cardio vascular ring stamina mind you)

great...lee taught how to defend against punches...big friggin deal...and kicks...what a waste for fightin ali...


My 2 cents...
you know...all this is coming from a traditional chinese matial artist who truly believes in the effectiveness of his art...so dont go sayin im one of those "martial arts dont work" hicks...but seriously...boxing aint no pussy crap either...and there is a reason they call kung fu chinese boxing...fighting is fighting...but i do have a few things against bruce lee...he thought he was making huge discoveries for martial arts...he wasnt...that foo never finished his wing chun training...he only got 2/3 of the way...and he never learned some of the later training techniques...kung fu already used live sparring partners and heavy bags and cardio training and jing(inch power) and all that other stuff he thought made him special...so yeah...he had some good ideas......that shaolin monks thought of 2000 yrs. before him...he was just too cocky to realize it or do anything about it...the only thing he was extraordinary at was making it public...thanks alot bruce...givin away all the ancient chinese secrets...haha JK they got tons left......so ya know...i think they would both knock eachother silly...but ali does have the strength...and i personally think lee has the speed......they were both genious fighters...and i believe it would come down to the circumstances, surroundings, and a flip of the coin...


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## Spidey (Nov 21, 2005)

HOKAGEKYZRE said:
			
		

> My 2 cents...
> you know...all this is coming from a traditional chinese matial artist who truly believes in the effectiveness of his art...so dont go sayin im one of those "martial arts dont work" hicks...but seriously...boxing aint no pussy crap either...and there is a reason they call kung fu chinese boxing...fighting is fighting*...but i do have a few things against bruce lee...he thought he was making huge discoveries for martial arts...he wasnt...that foo never finished his wing chun training...he only got 2/3 of the way...*and he never learned some of the later training techniques...kung fu already used live sparring partners and heavy bags and cardio training and jing(inch power) and all that other stuff he thought made him special...so yeah...he had some good ideas......that shaolin monks thought of 2000 yrs. before him...he was just too cocky to realize it or do anything about it...the only thing he was extraordinary at was making it public...thanks alot bruce...givin away all the ancient chinese secrets...haha JK they got tons left......so ya know...i think they would both knock eachother silly...but ali does have the strength...and i personally think lee has the speed......they were both genious fighters...and i believe it would come down to the circumstances, surroundings, and a flip of the coin...



ok, i'm one to believe that no one martial art is better than anyother, obviously they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I know how effective boxing is, otherwise lee wouldn't have incorporated so much of it into his training. Anyway, just responding to the bold part in this post. He didn't finish his wing chun training because they wouldn't teach him anymore when it was discovered he was american. He had to learn what little he could from the lower ranked students by trading what he knew. You probably already knew this, but it didn't sound like it from this part.

As for who I think would win, I think I already responded in this or a similar thread. In short I think lee would win, but it could go either way. but regardless of who lee could or couldn't beat, I have an amazingly high respect for him and what he has done for the martial art community.


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## CABLE (Nov 21, 2005)

Lee_san87 said:
			
		

> ok, i'm one to believe that no one martial art is better than anyother, obviously they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I know how effective boxing is, otherwise lee wouldn't have incorporated so much of it into his training. Anyway, just responding to the bold part in this post. He didn't finish his wing chun training because they wouldn't teach him anymore when it was discovered he was american. He had to learn what little he could from the lower ranked students by trading what he knew. You probably already knew this, but it didn't sound like it from this part.
> 
> As for who I think would win, I think I already responded in this or a similar thread. In short I think lee would win, but it could go either way. but regardless of who lee could or couldn't beat, I have an amazingly high respect for him and what he has done for the martial art community.



Care to back up Lee's victory?


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## Kamendex (Nov 21, 2005)

I swear to god...these people who think Lee would win..are just coming up with random stories...its quite comical.

I swear someone is going to come in here and say his dad once saw Bruce Lee knock an elephant out with his penis...and he would believe it.

This isnt damn ANIME...this is real life...Bruce Lee is someone Ali wouldnt even prepare to fight against. He can get out of bed, eat breakfast, and then he is set to fight Bruce Lee..and one punch would shatter Lee.


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## CABLE (Nov 21, 2005)

ZOMG GUYZEEWZZES! 

My dad WAS at werk tday and he ssaw this vid of Bruce Lee nockining out a elefant with his penis!!!1!!!1111


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## TDM (Nov 21, 2005)

> I swear someone is going to come in here and say his dad once saw Bruce Lee knock an elephant out with his penis...and he would believe it.



:rofl :rofl :rofl


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## Jedi Mind Tricks (Nov 21, 2005)

Master Hiko said:
			
		

> Care to back up Lee's victory?



Exactly mate.

Everybody that says that Bruce Lee would win just say it, or add some crap about how he kicked ass in one of his movies.

Bruce Lee was an class actor that brought Eastern Martial arts to the mainstream in the U.S.
He wasn't a competitor.

Training for fighting and fighting are two very completely different things.

Bruce Lee would die in a fight against Muhammad Ali.


PS: For all you idiots that voted Bruce Lee, anime isn't real and you need to get out more.

[Bring on the neg rep bitches!]


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## Artuir (Nov 21, 2005)

Why do I find your sig image oddly appropriate in this discussion?


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## Jedi Mind Tricks (Nov 21, 2005)

Artuir said:
			
		

> Why do I find your sig image oddly appropriate in this discussion?



That's because when Michael Gerard Tyson sees something he likes, he bites it.


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## CABLE (Nov 21, 2005)

Jedi Mind Tricks said:
			
		

> That's because when Michael Gerard Tyson sees something he likes, he bites it.



I've noticed your sig for a while.  Pretty damn hilarious.

And about the not competing thing, which I made a point already, thats a pretty big blow to his credibility in a real fight.  It was like he was saying that he was above competing.  And frankly I doubt if he had competed back in those times he would have an undefeated record.  I see Lee as more of a pioneer in spreading martial arts and popularizing it in the states and other parts of the world.  He was a great man and pioneer, but I can't make this any clearer, he can't beat Muhammad Ali.


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## Viciousness (Nov 21, 2005)

JMT, been meaning to ask whered u get that hillarious pic of Tyson actuallly trying to eat someones children, as he once threatened?



			
				Kamendex said:
			
		

> I swear someone is going to come in here and say his dad once saw Bruce Lee knock an elephant out with his penis...and he would believe it.



LMFAO! 

but anyway yeah I agree Ali would win, Bruce Lee was amazing and I find it quite incredible he had to slow down many of his attacks for movies. But I dont think that was because these "phantom moves" were faster than 10 fps or whatever the camera and human eye could pickup, but just because they were so fast to process it wouldnt make for as good of a film. You know like how movies often do things in slow motion to up the excitement, because if everything is going superfast, you'll be thinking what the hell happened. Boxing is not to be underestimated and Ali has an amazing legacy, plus due to his size he would probably do serious damage to lee with a single hit. 

He's also very fast and uses alot of feints. Lee learned alot from watching boxing and seemed to respect Ali alot, I think there was even a quote from him saying Ali was one of the few people whod probably beat him in a fight.
Now that said I think there was a fight Ali had with some Japanese sumo wrestler or something that he won but with a hard time, and the sumo complained it was staged,but thats second hand and theres no way of knowing if Ali put any real preperation into that fight to begin with. Either way I dont think it would be a slaughter, and I do like and  respect Bruce Lee alot, but I think Ali would take this.


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## HOKAGEKYZRE (Nov 22, 2005)

yes thank you for clearing that up Lee_san87

and everyone else...idunno if its true or not...but i heard from alot of different sources that lee would get challenged all the time on the sets of his movies and just rock some ass against some construction workers with the same attitude as you guys...

i believe he had to slow it down for his movies just because of the technology...most people could probably flick their arm out fast enough to make it incogneto on one an older camera...unlike some newer like crazy rateage cameras...(omg i have no idea what that camera thing is called)...


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## Id (Nov 22, 2005)

> i know i counter posted on the ali vs lee thread but hey...still friends...aye?



Who ever reped me or (neg I cant tell the diff) with this message its all good.

 ppl lets be honest and realistic, unless Lee could sucker punch (or kick) Ali in one of his vital points he wont be wining this fight. Im changing my vote to Ali 9/10 in his favor.


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## uncle jafuncle (Nov 22, 2005)

HOKAGEKYZRE said:
			
		

> i believe he had to slow it down for his movies just because of the technology...most people could probably flick their arm out fast enough to make it incogneto on one an older camera...unlike some newer like crazy rateage cameras...(omg i have no idea what that camera thing is called)...



You talking about frames per second?

Good point.  I'd explain this myself, but if I throw "frames per second" "camera" "Kung-fu" and "Bruce Lee" into google I'll probably turn up with an explanation.  Be back in a second

Editrappy layout, but a better explanation than I could have mustered


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## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 22, 2005)

so which fastest punches?? Ali Muhammad or Bruce Lee? it's Bruce Lee...
I believe, I have seen Discovery Channel TV says "Jeet Kune Do" extremely punches and kicks on hit your broken to bones... 
my DADDY is big fan of both greatest fighters, says... ALI DOESN'T KNOW TO HOW TO KICK..... Bruce Lee easily way to long-range under KICK to ALI...
ALI IS NOT K-1 Fighter......

let me see, KickBoxing (Kick/Punch) vs Boxing (Punch)???

KICK/PUNCH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PUNCH




			
				Bruce Lee and M. Uyehara said:
			
		

> Bruce Lee's Speed Training
> 
> What is speed in fighting? Is it the velocity of your hands, feet and body movement? Or are there other, prevalent essentials in a good fighter? What is a good fighter?
> 
> ...


from 

EDIT:


> *BB*: How fast were Lee's techniques?
> 
> *RHEE*: Bruce was very fast, but more important was his excellent timing, his deceptiveness. Good timing is essential. Muhammad Ali was a good fighter, not because of his speed, but because of his timing. I really felt that Bruce valued good timing more than just speed.


well, Jhon Rhee said it... from this


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## HOKAGEKYZRE (Nov 22, 2005)

i would consiter their punching speed equal...and if ali had trained in traditional western boxing...(that crazy like irish bare knuckles out shit) he would know how to kick below the belt...and consitering ali was a master of the boxing arts...i would think he would have a little knowledge...boxers also frequently use shoulders, knees, headbutts, and eye gouges in self defence scenarios...also...i dont think that lees high kicks would make all that much of a difference...lee would probably try to force a longer range battle as opposed to going toe to toe with ali but ali floats like a butterfly so i think he could handle it...and all those drills you quoted i know for a fact boxers train most of those or variations at least...

and ID that was a pos-rep...sign of good faith ya know?but were on the same side so hey whatever...


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## Gunshin (Nov 22, 2005)

Lain Iwakura said:
			
		

> so which fastest punches?? Ali Muhammad or Bruce Lee? it's Bruce Lee...


Really? I guess thats why Bruce Lee admited he admired Ali's speed and footwork. 



> I believe, I have seen Discovery Channel TV says "Jeet Kune Do" extremely punches and kicks on hit your broken to bones...


Discovery Channel had a show called Extreme Martial Arts which was the biggest pack of blatant bullshit ever. 



> my DADDY is big fan of both greatest fighters, says... ALI DOESN'T KNOW TO HOW TO KICK.......


Does Ali need to kick? Given the size and natural power advantage, a punch thrown with Ali's weight behind it would hurt a lot more than a kick with Bruce's weight thrown behind it. Furthermore, whenever Bruce throws a kick, he compromises his balance. All Ali has to do is go inside when Bruce throws a kick. 



> Bruce Lee easily way to long-range under KICK to ALI...
> ALI IS NOT K-1 Fighter......


Yeah, and neither is Bruce. K-1 has no weight on this issue, and even if it did, it would go against you. Which martial art has been more sucessful in K-1? Bruce's modified Wing Tsun which some Americans call Jeet Kun Do, or boxing? Let's check... 

Botha (Boxer) beat Jerome LeBanner and Peter Aerts.
Kalakoda (Boxer) beat yoshihiro Sato
Mighty Mo (Boxer) beat Carter Williams and Gary Goodridge

Kohirumaki beat Tony Valente (JKD) by PWNAGE

We can go on and on--- Masato Silverwolf 2003 MAX Champion started as a boxer at the age of 16. Boxing, not JKD. Albert Kraus 2002 MAX Champion started as a boxer, and still primarily boxes in his fights throwing little kicks. Mike "Iron Mike" Zambidis primarily boxes and could have represented Greece during the Olympics in boxing but pulled out due to injury. 

Ray Sefo, who is known for being impossible to KO, only got KO'd when he moved from K-1 to... (you guessed it) boxing.

Bringing K-1 into this argument is like kicking yourself in the nuts, then shitting in your own shoes.



> let me see, KickBoxing (Kick/Punch) vs Boxing (Punch)???
> 
> KICK/PUNCH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PUNCH


Thats not necessarily true, especially when you factor:
a. the quality of the opponent in his respected martial art
b. the size advantage
c. the intelligence of the fighter

Muhamad Ali was a big fish in boxing. What was Bruce in Wing Tsung? A tadpole? 

Oh-- and back to K-1...



And Mo isn't even close to the calibur of boxer Ali was.

EDIT - 

I'm going to call further BS' on those of you who say "Boxing is just punching!!111 They don't know anything else!!!11" Boxing teaches several techniques outside of punching, and to anyone who has trained, they know what i'm talking about. It's called "dirty boxing" and every gym teaches it. 

1. Clinch Knee - Boxers are taught how to clinch and knee. however, they only use this technique to knee the thigh while in the clinch, making it look as if they are merely moving their legs.

2. Elbows - Tyson was famous for using them. There are many techniques taught how to hide elbows in your punches to cause a cut.

3. Headbuts - Why do you guys think Tyson bit off Holyfields ear? because Holyfield (despite media image) was the fking master of headbuts. 

Theres much much more techniques in dirty boxing.


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## konflikti (Nov 22, 2005)

Lain Iwakura said:
			
		

> so which fastest punches?? Ali Muhammad or Bruce Lee? it's Bruce Lee...
> I believe, I have seen Discovery Channel TV says "Jeet Kune Do" extremely punches and kicks on hit your broken to bones...
> my DADDY is big fan of both greatest fighters, says... ALI DOESN'T KNOW TO HOW TO KICK..... Bruce Lee easily way to long-range under KICK to ALI...
> ALI IS NOT K-1 Fighter......
> ...


Punch + Mass + Size + Range Advantage > Kick/punch though.

The size difference is enough to negate the advantage of Bruce Lees in kicks. Ali's puch range is roughly equal to Lees kick range. And he can move around while punching, while Lee needs to setup his kick somehow.

Ali's hits do more damage, even if Lee's hits are marginally faster. It's basic physics. Ali can take more damage, since he has more skin and tissues and whatever absorbing the impact than Lee. And because he really is trained to take hits from heavy-weight boxers.


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## HOKAGEKYZRE (Nov 22, 2005)

EFF YEAH PROPS TO GUNSHIN!!!
<.< finally someone knows what he's talkin about here...


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## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 22, 2005)

nope, all you not master, you to go asked him Boxing or Whateva's Master to e-mail...
Jhon Rhee is master said Bruce is very powerful and very fast than Ali Muhammad...


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## GayNinja (Nov 22, 2005)

This is a difficult fight to decide. While Ali was the greatest boxer of his time, Lee could punch, kick, elbow, knee, and use pretty much every part of his body to fight, btw he could also punch harder than most heavyweights of his time, but proly not as hard as Ali. I like all the educated post but I'm very annoyed with all those Bruce Lee haters like Master Hick and Kamendex. You guys are just too biased in thinking Lee would get owned. Lee was not invincible, but he would never get owned, by anyone. You don't give him enough credit. Just because you see him in movies, you think he is a phoney. Well, Lee was a world class martial artist before he became a movie star. He trained like no other before his time and developed a physique that was deceptively sturdy. He looked small, but all that muscle was so condensed and rigid, it made his body not unlike that of a brick wall. Ali could take down some of the most fiersome opponents of his time, but boxing is a very contained fight with many rules. Lee would go all out in a fight, he would not be hesitant to use his teeth or kick someone in the groin if he had to. Ali's punch was like an express train, but his arms and his footwork was all he had. If any of you Lee-doubters have actually seen some of his documented training videos, you will see how frightening his power really his. He could break bricks with no effort, do one-fingered pushups, kick a guy and send him about 20 feet and his one-inch punch really is quite amazing. Granted, all these things I've listed does not actually come into play in a real fight, it is a demonstration of the kind of force he posseses in his attacks. I would not want to be on the receiving end of neither of the two. But I would give the fight to Lee because he was more versatile than the one-dimensional Ali.


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## Id (Nov 22, 2005)

When it comes fighting knowledge Gunshin is the master of Outskirts Battledome.


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## HOKAGEKYZRE (Nov 22, 2005)

holy crap...here we have one guy i cant even understand and a guy just as ignorant as the people he's raggin on...did you even read the previous posts gayninja???not like weve been talking about boxing having more than just simple punches or anything...and the fact that boxing has strict rules is actually proving how much better ali would have been...if he can knock out suckas with these rules and freakin crazy padded gloves what do you think that means he can do when we throw him in a pit and force him to fight to the death against lee???


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## konflikti (Nov 22, 2005)

GayNinja said:
			
		

> This is a difficult fight to decide. While Ali was the greatest boxer of his time, Lee could punch, kick, elbow, knee, and use pretty much every part of his body to fight, btw he could also punch harder than most heavyweights of his time, but proly not as hard as Ali. I like all the educated post but I'm very annoyed with all those Bruce Lee haters like Master Hick and Kamendex. You guys are just too biased in thinking Lee would get owned. Lee was not invincible, but he would never get owned, by anyone. You don't give him enough credit. Just because you see him in movies, you think he is a phoney. Well, Lee was a world class martial artist before he became a movie star. He trained like no other before his time and developed a physique that was deceptively sturdy. He looked small, but all that muscle was so condensed and rigid, it made his body not unlike that of a brick wall. Ali could take down some of the most fiersome opponents of his time, but boxing is a very contained fight with many rules. Lee would go all out in a fight, he would not be hesitant to use his teeth or kick someone in the groin if he had to. Ali's punch was like an express train, but his arms and his footwork was all he had.


You know, until this, your post was a pretty good one. Although the are couple places I do not agree. 



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> If any of you Lee-doubters have actually seen some of his documented training videos, you will see how frightening his power really his. He could break bricks with no effort, do one-fingered pushups, kick a guy and send him about 20 feet and his one-inch punch really is quite amazing. Granted, all these things I've listed does not actually come into play in a real fight, it is a demonstration of the kind of force he posseses in his attacks. I would not want to be on the receiving end of neither of the two. But I would give the fight to Lee because he was more versatile than the one-dimensional Ali.


But this is what really shows that the hype that has surrounded Bruce Lee for years has done some permanent damage. Breaking bricks and one-finger push-ups are believable. But... 20ft with kick? What the hell?

Ali is one-dimensional in sense that he doesn't kick. He is far from one-dimensional when it comes to the fighting. It's not like his repertuire is only straight punches towards opponent.


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## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 22, 2005)

Gunshin said:
			
		

> Really? I guess thats why Bruce Lee admited he admired Ali's speed and footwork.


you are master of martial arts in real life?...
so Jhoo Rhee said Bruce Lee was very fast...



> Discovery Channel had a show called Extreme Martial Arts which was the biggest pack of blatant bullshit ever.


...it's offical was called you are wrong... master and professor's knowledge.



> Does Ali need to kick? Given the size and natural power advantage, a punch thrown with Ali's weight behind it would hurt a lot more than a kick with Bruce's weight thrown behind it. Furthermore, whenever Bruce throws a kick, he compromises his balance. All Ali has to do is go inside when Bruce throws a kick.


Ali never with Kick Training... Bruce Lee got tape watched knows Ali's techniques...
like Bruce Lee is clever. go asked to him your who is master of martial arts...



> Yeah, and neither is Bruce. K-1 has no weight on this issue, and even if it did, it would go against you. Which martial art has been more sucessful in K-1? Bruce's modified Wing Tsun which some Americans call Jeet Kun Do, or boxing? Let's check...


who is master of JKD? Bruce Lee is master. classic JKD >>> Modern JKD do you know Bruce Lee's son training Modern JKD sucks... K-1 are modern JKD... doesn't know that 1-inch punch... Bruce Lee is hard-working.



> Thats not necessarily true, especially when you factor:
> a. the quality of the opponent in his respected martial art
> b. the size advantage
> c. the intelligence of the fighter


Bruce Lee is more techniques than Ali Muhammad.
Size Advantage? well, Ali is taller than Bruce Lee, doesn't matter... do you know that Bruce Lee easily beats Taller in real life...
Bruce Lee is very clever.



> Muhamad Ali was a big fish in boxing. What was Bruce in Wing Tsung? A tadpole?


that's made me laughing...



> I'm going to call further BS' on those of you who say "Boxing is just punching!!111 They don't know anything else!!!11" Boxing teaches several techniques outside of punching, and to anyone who has trained, they know what i'm talking about. It's called "dirty boxing" and every gym teaches it.
> 
> 1. Clinch Knee - Boxers are taught how to clinch and knee. however, they only use this technique to knee the thigh while in the clinch, making it look as if they are merely moving their legs.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Dirty Boxing was smoking, raping and drunk in modern. Bruce Lee easily beats Mike Tyson, he can avoid it. perfect eyes...
Modern <<< Classic... 

BTW, sorry for my bad english


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## Gunshin (Nov 22, 2005)

GayNinja said:
			
		

> This is a difficult fight to decide. While Ali was the greatest boxer of his time, Lee could punch, kick, elbow, knee, and use pretty much every part of his body to fight, btw he could also punch harder than most heavyweights of his time, but proly not as hard as Ali.


Lee can punch harder than most HW of his time? How do you know this? Was it his fight against Mr. Cindar Bloke or the one against Ms. Cherry Wood? I'd also like for you to provide the science of how a 150lb trained fighter can punch harder than a 205lb+ one. And don't just jot down some BS that has Bruce's speed faster then the speed of sound.



> I like all the educated post but I'm very annoyed with all those Bruce Lee haters like Master Hick and Kamendex. You guys are just too biased in thinking Lee would get owned.


You just showed your bias. Theres much more Bruce biased people on this thread who made ridiculous comments void of any logic. Why not point them out? 



> Lee was not invincible, but he would never get owned, by anyone.


What i wanted to say here was "yeah, it's easy to not get owned when you're not competing" but because Gene Lebelle "owned" him on numerous occasions so bad that bruce trained at his dojo and forced Brandon Lee to train there too... i can't. :sad 



> You don't give him enough credit. Just because you see him in movies, you think he is a phoney.


or you give him too much credit. 
Nobody thinks that Bruce is a phoney because he was in movies. they think he is an overrated fighter because he was a nobody in Wing Tsung (his base), didn't compete to protect his hollywood propogated image, and lost the few known fights he had.



> Well, Lee was a world class martial artist before he became a movie star.


No he wasn't. He was a nobody in Wing Tsung.



> He trained like no other before his time and developed a physique that was deceptively sturdy. He looked small, but all that muscle was so condensed and rigid, it made his body not unlike that of a brick wall.


Whats this suppose to prove? that your good with adjectives?



> Ali could take down some of the most fiersome opponents of his time, but boxing is a very contained fight with many rules.


Whats your point? And read my words on "dirty boxing". personaly, i'd say the rules of boxing show how strong Ali was. To *easily* KO people with 8oz of padded leather is more proof of power than showing you have conditioned callused  shins to break bricks and wood.



> Lee would go all out in a fight, he would not be hesitant to use his teeth or kick someone in the groin if he had to.


Neither would Ali. 



> Ali's punch was like an express train, but his arms and his footwork was all he had.


Well-- that and much more fighting experience than bruce against world class competition.



> If any of you Lee-doubters have actually seen some of his documented training videos, you will see how frightening his power really his.


I've seen them along with Emin Bozetepes who purposely trumped everything Bruce has ever done in his training videos. Come to think of it... bruce said William Cheung was the strongest man in the world and Emin Bozetepe beat the shit out of him in the ugliest most unskilled fight i've ever seen in my life which resembled a guy who was trained by a Gracie Jiujitsu whitebelt beating up a retard. 



> He could break bricks with no effort, do one-fingered pushups, kick a guy and send him about 20 feet and his one-inch punch really is quite amazing.


Breaking bricks is easy once you have conditioned your bone. I'm a practitioner of Shotokan and Kyokushin, so i know how brick breaking works. In Muay thai you do shin conditioning too. Doesn't mean anything in an actual fight unless the guys neck is on a tree trunk and he's unconsious.

Kick a guy 20ft? LOL. 

Yes, the one-inch punch is amazing along with David Blanes levitating trick. how does he do that? David Blane, not the one-inch punch from the solar plexus which makes the person standing still for it hop a few inches backwards which has overtime been exagerated into "20ft". By the way, i suggest you check out Emin Bozetepe's version of the 1-inch punch... much more dramatic and "impressive" than Bruce's. 



> Granted, all these things I've listed does not actually come into play in a real fight, it is a demonstration of the kind of force he posseses in his attacks.


No, it doesn't. Feitosa and Hug can break multiple cindar blocks and wood. I didn't see them breaking shins, necks, and bones in competition. Condition bones is different than power. 

Anyone notice how Ali supporters use logic and concrete evidence such as known fights and victories against world class fighters while Lee supporters use propogated stories and training videos? Bet you they're the same people who think jet Li was a Shaolin Monk.


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## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 22, 2005)

GayNinja said:
			
		

> He could break bricks with no effort, do one-fingered pushups, *kick a guy and send him about 20 feet* and his one-inch punch really is quite amazing.


20 feet? what do you heard that 20 feet?? are you seriously? it's *real flying* or *fake flying* with tramplen in movie?....

*Spoiler*: _Bruce Lee's flying kick_ 










what do you think that pictures?


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## Gunshin (Nov 22, 2005)

Lain Iwakura said:
			
		

> you are master of martial arts in real life?...
> so Jhoo Rhee said Bruce Lee was very fast...


So what? And i have trained in multiple arts with Muay Thai as my base. In fact, I trained Wing Tsung under Sifu Hoover Chan in Oakland California. 

And who cares about Rhee? Yeah, i'll agree both Ali and bruce can beat up Rhee if you propose the question. 



> ...it's offical was called you are wrong... master and professor's knowledge.


WTF? Discovery Channel martial art shows are lame. heres one from Extreme MA... "I've never been in a fight before, but I assume my kick would knock them out." ("fighter" they were covering)



> Ali never with Kick Training... Bruce Lee got tape watched knows Ali's techniques...like Bruce Lee is clever. go asked to him your who is master of martial arts...


He doesn't have to be trained in kicking. It's an ABC concept. Guy throws a kick. Balance and defense is compromised. Right straight -> KO. You mentioned K-1 before. Go watch some of it where the boxers fought kickboxers or karate practitioners. 



> who is master of JKD? Bruce Lee is master. classic JKD >>> Modern JKD do you know Bruce Lee's son training Modern JKD sucks... K-1 are modern JKD... doesn't know that 1-inch punch... Bruce Lee is hard-working.


Bruce the master of JKD? No he's not. Why? Because JKD is a philosophy, not a style. Some have overtime associated Bruce's modified Wing Tsung into "JKD" however, JKD is a concept that fighting is formless. You just got caught with a paragraph of BS.



> Bruce Lee is more techniques than Ali Muhammad.


yeah, bruce probably has more kicking techniques than Ali. However, none of that matters when one guy has a size, strength advantage with superior hand/foot work, equal or greater speed, more experience, and more experience against world class competition. Remember, Bruce idolized Ali's speed and footwork.



> Size Advantage? well, Ali is taller than Bruce Lee, doesn't matter... do you know that Bruce Lee easily beats Taller in real life...
> Bruce Lee is very clever.


While height is another advantage Ali has, i was referring to the weight. The science of fighting. Do you know where and how power is generated? Weight + Speed = Power. Ali can throw A LOT more weight in his punches than Bruce with equal speed or faster. One things for sure, we know for a fact Ali has KO power. bruce? Only speculation based on broken bricks and hongkong rooftop streetfighting stories.



> that's made me laughing...


Why? Because bruce was low ranked in Wing Tsung?



> BTW, sorry for my bad english


Don't appologize for your english. Appologize for your misinformation and fallacies.


----------



## HOKAGEKYZRE (Nov 22, 2005)

yeah pretty much this is frustrating...gunshin...your gettin some rep from me...all you other guys can have a nice time talking about flying kicks and stuff...


----------



## konflikti (Nov 22, 2005)

HOKAGEKYZRE said:
			
		

> yeah pretty much this is frustrating...gunshin...your gettin some rep from me...all you other guys can have a nice time talking about flying kicks and stuff...


Off-topic, but please don't generalize, some of us others are arguing on Ali's side too. You say it like the rest of us are total idiots. You also need 50 posts to succesfully rep others.


----------



## CABLE (Nov 22, 2005)

No one here has ever seen Bruce Lee fight for real so it is illogical to say that he could be Ali.

Also people keep talking about his "One-Inch Punch" and I don't know if anybody has said it or not, but he didn't even do it right nor master it.  It was simply an imitation of the real deal.


----------



## Jensei-kun (Nov 22, 2005)

I set up this thread in the hopes that people would post factual, logical and reasonable evidence to support their theory. But the propagation and the evidence would seem to hold Ali as the the winner. I would have to agree, although a supporter of lee's, i cannot argue with the arguements of science and reality. To all those who have provided legitimate support (ie. Gunshin, Master Hiko and many others) thankyou. I think we can close the book on this one. Don't like it? I don't care, if you'd like to argue against the facts it time you got a reality check on this one. peace.


----------



## Id (Nov 22, 2005)

Jensei-kun said:
			
		

> I set up this thread in the hopes that people would post factual, logical and reasonable evidence to support their theory. But the propagation and the evidence would seem to hold Ali as the the winner. I would have to agree, although a supporter of lee's, i cannot argue with the arguements of science and reality. To all those who have provided legitimate support (ie. Gunshin, Master Hiko and many others) thankyou. I think we can close the book on this one. Don't like it? I don't care, if you'd like to argue against the facts it time you got a reality check on this one. peace.



You forgot me.....I feel so lonely..... 

Yeah Ali kick ass, but how would he fair agianst a Mike Tyson in his prime, or Rocky Marciano?


----------



## Jensei-kun (Nov 22, 2005)

*of course*



			
				Id said:
			
		

> You forgot me.....I feel so lonely.....
> 
> Yeah Ali kick ass, but how would he fair agianst a Mike Tyson in his prime, or Rocky Marciano?


 
your contribution is also duely noted Id. This thread would'nt have been the same without your 2 cents. Look forward to hearing your thoughts in the future.


----------



## CABLE (Nov 22, 2005)

GayNinja said:
			
		

> This is a difficult fight to decide. While Ali was the greatest boxer of his time, Lee could punch, kick, elbow, knee, and use pretty much every part of his body to fight, btw he could also punch harder than most heavyweights of his time, but proly not as hard as Ali. I like all the educated post but* I'm very annoyed with all those Bruce Lee haters like Master Hick and Kamendex. You guys are just too biased in thinking Lee would get owned.* Lee was not invincible, but he would never get owned, by anyone. You don't give him enough credit. Just because you see him in movies, you think he is a phoney. Well, Lee was a world class martial artist before he became a movie star. He trained like no other before his time and developed a physique that was deceptively sturdy. He looked small, but all that muscle was so condensed and rigid, it made his body not unlike that of a brick wall. Ali could take down some of the most fiersome opponents of his time, but boxing is a very contained fight with many rules. Lee would go all out in a fight, he would not be hesitant to use his teeth or kick someone in the groin if he had to. Ali's punch was like an express train, but his arms and his footwork was all he had. If any of you Lee-doubters have actually seen some of his documented training videos, you will see how frightening his power really his. He could break bricks with no effort, do one-fingered pushups, kick a guy and send him about 20 feet and his one-inch punch really is quite amazing. Granted, all these things I've listed does not actually come into play in a real fight, it is a demonstration of the kind of force he posseses in his attacks. I would not want to be on the receiving end of neither of the two. But I would give the fight to Lee because he was more versatile than the one-dimensional Ali.



I never said I hate Lee and I actually stated I am a huge fan of his.  He was a great on-screen martial artist and philosopher but he would not fair aswell in his movies in a real competetion and especially up agianst Muhammad Ali.

EDIT: Just read jensei-kun's post.  *agrees* This battle is over.


----------



## Spacey (Nov 25, 2005)

Uh for people that says that Ali was well trained that is true but Bruce Lee trained 20 hours a day so I'm going to have to hand this to Lee


----------



## Id (Nov 25, 2005)

Spacey said:
			
		

> Uh for people that says that Ali was well trained that is true but Bruce Lee trained 20 hours a day so I'm going to have to hand this to Lee




20 hrs a day:S ................(slowly backs a way form spacey )


----------



## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 25, 2005)

yep, 20 hours. you don't know?...


----------



## Id (Nov 25, 2005)

Lain Iwakura said:
			
		

> yep, 20 hours. you don't know?...



I own 3 books of his.
One was about his training.
One was about expressing his phylosophy.
One was about Jeet Kun Do.

I also have watached (I dont know how many) documentarys of his.

I dont know remember hearing, seeing, or reading about him working out for 20 hrs. Or I dont know what  you mean by that. (did he worked out to his max every day for 20 hrs?) 

So um yeah proff please


----------



## CABLE (Nov 25, 2005)

I think we already deemed this thread over. Because it is.


----------



## Id (Nov 25, 2005)

Master Hiko said:
			
		

> I think we already deemed this thread over. Because it is.




I agree this match has bien decided. But me being a huge Bruce Lee, have never heard of 20 hr work out. I demand prof, or else just stop with the bullshit.


----------



## konflikti (Nov 25, 2005)

Id said:
			
		

> I agree this match has bien decided. But me being a huge Bruce Lee, have never heard of 20 hr work out. I demand prof, or else just stop with the bullshit.


A human being ain't capable of that sort of work-out. You'd probably die from exhaustion in a week or two. Besides, it's not like he would have had time to meet anyone, eat, do his movies or basically anything while doing work-outs for 20 h a day.

So yes, this is pretty much as bullshit as it gets. The hype power of Bruce Lee is quite huge.


----------



## Spacey (Nov 25, 2005)

Id said:
			
		

> I agree this match has bien decided. But me being a huge Bruce Lee, have never heard of 20 hr work out. I demand prof, or else just stop with the bullshit.



Uh sorry.. The human body can't, that's why he had to do cocaine to be able to do it.


----------



## Id (Nov 25, 2005)

Spacey said:
			
		

> Uh sorry.. The human body can't, that's why he had to do cocaine to be able to do it.




Um..........Im not even going to bother with this anymore.


----------



## Spacey (Nov 25, 2005)

Id said:
			
		

> Um..........Im not even going to bother with this anymore.




What do you mean???:S


----------



## Kamendex (Nov 25, 2005)

Spacey said:
			
		

> What do you mean???:S



20 hours of training

1 hour of sleep

1.5 hours for eating

30 mins for showers

9 months to make a movie

thats what he means

Did Lee have sex? 

1 hour

Talk to someone?

50 more minutes



Lain and You are just little kids I bet


----------



## Crazy Like a Fox (Nov 25, 2005)

I think Bruce Lee would demolish Ali. Bruce Lee's training was equal to if not harder then Ali's. Ali couldn't even touch Lee because Lee would kick him, before Ali got close enough. Another factor is Bruce Lee is a dirty fighter. I'm not saying Ali can't be, but I think he may depend to much on his boxing. I think Lee would do anything to win, so I definitely would give the win to Bruce.


----------



## Kamendex (Nov 26, 2005)

Crazy Like a Fox said:
			
		

> I think Bruce Lee would demolish Ali.


I cant stop the thinkers from thinking, but the knowers already know that Lee is a joke



			
				Crazy Like a Fox said:
			
		

> Bruce Lee's training was equal to if not harder then Ali's.


Even though Lee spent a long time making his many movies, and Ali spent a long time kicking ass in front of millions...

Boxers are the best conditioned athletes in the world


			
				Crazy Like a Fox said:
			
		

> Ali couldn't even touch Lee because Lee would kick him, before Ali got close enough.



And this kick would stop Ali?

This kick from a puny asian fellow

Ali was built to take punches from worldclass heavyweight boxers, he can take that kick and then some


			
				Crazy Like a Fox said:
			
		

> Another factor is Bruce Lee is a dirty fighter. I'm not saying Ali can't be, but I think he may depend to much on his boxing.


And your extensive knowledge of boxing allows u to make the assumption that boxing cant be dirty?


			
				Crazy Like a Fox said:
			
		

> I think Lee would do anything to win, so I definitely would give the win to Bruce.



If this was a fight to the death, then ya Lee would do anything...so would Ali


----------



## GayNinja (Nov 26, 2005)

I have come to the conclusion that Kamendex knows absolutely nothing about either Bruce Lee or Muhammad Ali. You are basing your arguments solely on the fact that Bruce Lee was a small Asian man and Ali was a big black man. You dare call Bruce Lee a "joke" and a "small Asian guy". Those comments are rude and ignorant. Lee was the greatest martial artist of the century not because he won fights but because he revolutionized the way people thought about fighting. He created Jeet Kun Do so he would could not be beat. Do you even have any solid evidence that Ali could beat BL? Do you know how many fights Ali has won and lost without looking it up online? Did you even see his fights yourself? Were you even alive when he was fighting? Do you know who he beat to come onto the world stage. I doubt you know anything about Ali at all and even less so about Bruce Lee. You guys claim you have facts but the only "facts" I've been seeing is that Ali is bigger and he has won titles. Whoa, TWO whole solid facts! Here are some facts about Bruce Lee that are 100% true:
Pound for pound, Lee was one of the most powerful men to ever live. He could hold a 70lb dumbell straight out in front of him with one are and hold it for 20 seconds. Most 250lb bodybuilders could not do this.

Starting with his arms to his sides, Lee could strike a target in 0.05 seconds from 3ft away. Ali's Phantom Punch is slow motion compared to this. 

Chuck Norris, a 7 time karate champion was Bruce Lee's student. Proving that titles don't mean anything if you are a truly great fighter. 

Bruce Lee has lost fights, but he analyzes why he lost and incorporates techniques that defeated him into his fighting style. He was constantly learning and evolving and there was not a single fighting method he was not acquainted with. 

Bruce Lee had a friend invent machines for him so he can do exercises no one else has ever heard of. He trained every part of his body to fight, not ignoring anything. 

These are just some facts about Bruce Lee that I'm sure none of you ever knew about. Indeed, Lee did make a lot of movies, but he spent most of his life improving his body and technique. He wrote many books on training and fighting and developed his own philosophy on fighting, Jeet Kun Do, a philosophy still widely practiced today. The fact that Bruce Lee became a fighting legend sans any official titles should be a testement to his greatness. Ali punched the lights out of some of the scariest boxers of his time but did he did not have any idea on how to train his body to its full potential. He did not study Bruce Lee like Lee studied Ali. He did not invent his own way of fighting, and he certainly did not possess the depth of knowledge that Lee had on the human body and its fighting potential. Ali may have had the more powerful punch, but Bruce Lee had the more powerful knee, elbow, kick, backhand, headbutt, kickflip, knife chop, choke hold, etc and he was helluvalot faster than Ali. Lee was the most complete fighter that ever lived and would have held his own against Ali.

Still not a believer, watch this (I've posted this on another thread but more people will see it on this thread). Watch him abuse that punching bag and that kick at the end of the video.


----------



## Spacey (Nov 26, 2005)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> 20 hours of training
> 
> 1 hour of sleep
> 
> ...




I bet you're a jerk, how's that?


----------



## Kamendex (Nov 26, 2005)

GayNinja said:
			
		

> I have come to the conclusion that Kamendex knows absolutely nothing about either Bruce Lee or Muhammad Ali. You are basing your arguments solely on the fact that Bruce Lee was a small Asian man and Ali was a big black man. You dare call Bruce Lee a "joke" and a "small Asian guy". Those comments are rude and ignorant.



And your basing all your arguements solely on the fact that Bruce jumped a 100 feet in the movies and kicked a guy 20 feet back once



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Lee was the greatest martial artist of the century not because he won fights but because he revolutionized the way people thought about fighting. He created Jeet Kun Do so he would could not be beat.


Revolutionized the way people thought about fighting?

The only thing I think he changed is the image stupid western hicks had of little asian folk who can jump really high...

Chuck Norris also created his own style, Chun Kuk Do, its not the most impossible thing to create your own stye...


			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Do you even have any solid evidence that Ali could beat BL? Do you know how many fights Ali has won and lost without looking it up online? Did you even see his fights yourself?



Oh Im sorry, I didnt know that you had solid evidence, knew all of Lee's fights, and seen the fights yourself...sry mate 



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Were you even alive when he was fighting? Do you know who he beat to come onto the world stage. I doubt you know anything about Ali at all and even less so about Bruce Lee.



Coming from the guy who wanted me to be impressed by a punching bag and a staged kick...


			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> You guys claim you have facts but the only "facts" I've been seeing is that Ali is bigger and he has won titles. Whoa, TWO whole solid facts! Here are some facts about Bruce Lee that are 100% true:



You shoulda stopped now



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Pound for pound, Lee was one of the most powerful men to ever live. He could hold a 70lb dumbell straight out in front of him with one are and hold it for 20 seconds. Most 250lb bodybuilders could not do this.


First of all, he wouldnt be pound for pound the most powerful if he could hold a 70lb dumbell and 250lb body builders couldnt...

it would mean he is using chakra in his arm to sustain a dumbell...

Your so full of shit, I wanna see pics of this next to a 250lb body builder



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Starting with his arms to his sides, Lee could strike a target in 0.05 seconds from 3ft away. Ali's Phantom Punch is slow motion compared to this.



Ali's phantom punch wasnt called the phantom punch because it was fast, it was called that because it came from an odd, difficult to see angle and suprised everyone 

Show me documented proof of this .05 punch, and evidence that it could hurt the greatest boxer that ever lived



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Chuck Norris, a 7 time karate champion was Bruce Lee's student. Proving that titles don't mean anything if you are a truly great fighter.


He wasnt Bruce's student, he just trained with him a few times, he already had his own style of fighting before Bruce and never migrated to JKD


			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Bruce Lee has lost fights, but he analyzes why he lost and incorporates techniques that defeated him into his fighting style. He was constantly learning and evolving and there was not a single fighting method he was not acquainted with.



There goes your imagination again



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Bruce Lee had a friend invent machines for him so he can do exercises no one else has ever heard of. He trained every part of his body to fight, not ignoring anything.


There goes your imagination again


			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> These are just some facts about Bruce Lee that I'm sure none of you ever knew about. Indeed, Lee did make a lot of movies, but he spent most of his life improving his body and technique. He wrote many books on training and fighting and developed his own philosophy on fighting, Jeet Kun Do, a philosophy still widely practiced today.


Improving his body and technique for movies, because he never actually fought anyone...

Jeet Kun Do, who practices that?

No one in K-1 practices it, they know it sucks



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> The fact that Bruce Lee became a fighting legend sans any official titles should be a testement to his greatness.



What titles?



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Ali punched the lights out of some of the scariest boxers of his time but did he did not have any idea on how to train his body to its full potential.



Go ask him that, get a voice recording, file host it, and bring it back here as proof



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> He did not study Bruce Lee like Lee studied Ali.



Ya, why would you study someone less then you who you could beat in a fight...

I dont teach my teacher, he teaches me...



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> He did not invent his own way of fighting, and he certainly did not possess the depth of knowledge that Lee had on the human body and its fighting potential.



Ya he was too busy beating proven elite fighters



			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Ali may have had the more powerful punch, but Bruce Lee had the more powerful knee, elbow, kick, backhand, headbutt, kickflip, knife chop, choke hold, etc and he was helluvalot faster than Ali. Lee was the most complete fighter that ever lived and would have held his own against Ali.



Your making assumptions again, Lee admired Ali's footwork, not the other way around...

I also think in his book he mentions that Ali is the only fighter that could beat him, hmm someone should find that line


			
				GayNinja said:
			
		

> Still not a believer, watch this (I've posted this on another thread but more people will see it on this thread). Watch him abuse that punching bag and that kick at the end of the video.



Abuse a punching bag...are you implying that Ali cant do that and do it better?

And that kick is on a movie set, its purpose is to fool GayNinja's into thinking that bruce is a god


----------



## junitjam123 (Nov 26, 2005)

ali may have more power but lee is overall faster and more flexible. lee can counter any of ali's punches. all lee has to do is hit him at a presure point and ali is down. btw lee had beef with a ton of gangs


----------



## Spacey (Nov 26, 2005)

Not having to take several blows against your head everyday will at least give Lee a clear upperhand when it comes to intellegence at least


----------



## GayNinja (Nov 26, 2005)

Hmm, this seems to be the overall theme of this thread. I write a perfectly good post with good evidence from books and just because some people refuse to believe what I say, they play it off as fiction and claim it is my imagination. Using childish arguments such as "that kick was staged to fool GayNinja" proves you really don't have knowledge of your claims and cannot back up one word of what you said.


----------



## Tousenz (Nov 26, 2005)

The kick was staged g.n.Its funny how you say you read the books but didnt read how it was performed...      Its a simple trick of hitting someone in the solar plexus... Stop being fooled by everything you see and hear and rely on common sense..          Seriously you think some 125 pound man even in the peakest of conditions would be invincible....  Really need to get in touch with reality. Theres no way someone trains 20 hours a day...theres no way someone with 125 pounds delivers more force than a 250 pound boxer. Its impossible this isnt anime.


----------



## Kamendex (Nov 26, 2005)

GayNinja said:
			
		

> Hmm, this seems to be the overall theme of this thread. I write a perfectly good post with good evidence from books and just because some people refuse to believe what I say, they play it off as fiction and claim it is my imagination. Using childish arguments such as "that kick was staged to fool GayNinja" proves you really don't have knowledge of your claims and cannot back up one word of what you said.



The kick was on a movie set, wtf you talking about...


----------



## GayNinja (Nov 26, 2005)

Of course it was a staged kick. If it wasn't staged and controlled, that guy would be dead. As Beyonder mentioned, he was kicked near the solar plexus (it didn't look like it was directly at the solar plexus because the guy was protecting himself with a pad and his arms) a blow that hard to the SP would probably kill. But this is not the point. Even if it is staged, Lee still knocked the hell out of that guy. The guy didn't just jump back like that on his own and there didn't seem to be any ropes. As for Lee's punching power, he could punch harder than most heavy weights of his day. I don't remember what book I got this from but I do know I read it. The size of your arm is not the only factor that comes into play when punching. Remember that force=mass x acceleration. Bruce Lee had by far the quickest punch out of any fighter in the world, the acceleration in his strike would more than offset any lack of mass in his arms. Plus, Bruce Lee even said that large muscles does not automatically mean more power. Lee could extract the most power from his smaller muscles more efficiently than most boxers. Punching effectively also incorporates the abdominals as well as the legs. Considering that Lee probably trained his legs better than any boxer would becuase he loved to kick, and that he had one of the most powerful and sculpted abs in his day, those two factors also come into play when you consider punching. Yeah, so when it comes to martial arts, not everything is common sense, otherwise we would all be 12th dan black belts. There is more deep science involved than one would imagine.


----------



## Gunshin (Nov 26, 2005)

junitjam123 said:
			
		

> ali may have more power but lee is overall faster and more flexible. lee can counter any of ali's punches. all lee has to do is hit him at a presure point and ali is down. btw lee had beef with a ton of gangs


Overall faster? What evidence do you have to support this? Lee's well known idolization of Ali's speed and footwork? Pressurepoints? I'm guessing you are not a fighter and have never competed in an amateur or even smoker. Pressure points are easily bypassed by adreniline. The only real pressure points to be concerned about is your chin and your solar plexus, bot of which boxers aim for.

Beef w/tons of gangs? So what? Tell me about how Ali grew up. And if you're going to say theoretical beef w/tons of gangs is worth more then victories over well known olympic calibur world class fighters, then you're a dumbass.


----------



## Gunshin (Nov 26, 2005)

junitjam123 said:
			
		

> ali may have more power but lee is overall faster and more flexible. lee can counter any of ali's punches. all lee has to do is hit him at a presure point and ali is down. btw lee had beef with a ton of gangs


Overall faster? What evidence do you have to support this? Lee's well known idolization of Ali's speed and footwork? Pressurepoints? I'm guessing you are not a fighter and have never competed in an amateur or even smoker. Pressure points are easily bypassed by adreniline. The only real pressure points to be concerned about is your chin and your solar plexus, bot of which boxers aim for.

Beef w/tons of gangs? So what? Tell me about how Ali grew up. And if you're going to say theoretical beef w/tons of gangs is worth more then victories over well known olympic calibur world class fighters, then you're a dumbass.



> Of course it was a staged kick. If it wasn't staged and controlled, that guy would be dead.


The point was that Bruce cannot jump 20ft in the air or kick people 20ft in the air. In fact, his best kick couldn't even budge Gene Lebell who's compliments on Bruce's strength always started with: "if he was bigger...". 



> As Beyonder mentioned, he was kicked near the solar plexus (it didn't look like it was directly at the solar plexus because the guy was protecting himself with a pad and his arms) a blow that hard to the SP would probably kill.


Wtf? Kill? You're an idiot. You're saying if it wasn't staged the guy would be killed. What a f'n fallacy. I can just as easily say if it wasn't staged the guy would have dodged such a predictable jump kick. And that blow would not kill him, at most knock the wind out of him and drop him. 

Off topic... funny how muay thai fighter Kohirumaki KO'd JKD fighter Tony Valente with a kick to the solar plexus.



> But this is not the point. Even if it is staged, Lee still knocked the hell out of that guy. The guy didn't just jump back like that on his own and there didn't seem to be any ropes.


LOL. Now your evidence is all about hypothesizing about how much pain the stunt men were in. Hilarious how you disrespect Ali's quality *real* victories by comparing them with what Lee theoreticaly did to stuntmen. And if Lee really was hurting his stuntmen, he's an asshole like Steven Seagall.



> As for Lee's punching power, he could punch harder than most heavy weights of his day.


You keep on saying this without proof. You don't even have any logic or science supporting you. Ihaven't even heard of your experience. I trained Wing Tsung under respected Wing Tsung practioner Hoover Chan in Oakland Ca, right next to Dave's near Oakland High. Don't bullshit me about the science of strength.



> I don't remember what book I got this from but I do know I read it.


Yeah, I wonder which Hollywood propogated book you read.



> The size of your arm is not the only factor that comes into play when punching. Remember that force=mass x acceleration. Bruce Lee had by far the quickest punch out of any fighter in the world, the acceleration in his strike would more than offset any lack of mass in his arms. Plus, Bruce Lee even said that large muscles does not automatically mean more power. Lee could extract the most power from his smaller muscles more efficiently than most boxers.


Once again. Bullshit + no proof. And muscle doesn't mean shit for power. Duh. It depends on the type of muscle you built, and how well you can throw your weight. If you're suggesting that Bruce can throw more weight than Ali, you're a retard. If you're suggesting Bruce was 10,000 times faster than Ali, you're a retard who disrespects Ali. If you think Bruce is better at throwing his weight, faster, and has more punching technique than Ali, you shit on Ali, shit on boxing, and are full of shit. you're not giving boxing the respect it deserves ESPECIALLY considering how Bruce said that you can beat a blackbelt with only 1 month of training in wrestling and boxing.



> Punching effectively also incorporates the abdominals as well as the legs. Considering that Lee probably trained his legs better than any boxer would becuase he loved to kick, and that he had one of the most powerful and sculpted abs in his day, those two factors also come into play when you consider punching. Yeah, so when it comes to martial arts, not everything is common sense, otherwise we would all be 12th dan black belts. There is more deep science involved than one would imagine.


I can tell you're not a fighter, just a gullible fan who believes all he reads. 

Bottom line, you obviously look down on boxers despite the large amount of respect Bruce had for them. You look down on Ali despite the large amount of idolation Bruce had for him. You ignore Ali's spectacular victories over world class opponents while ignoring Bruce Lee's losses which even he acknowledge. You ignore Bruce's low rank in Wing Tsung and ignore Ali's high rank in boxing. You ignore all of Ali's multiple fights and also ignore Bruce's lack of fights.

People who vote for Bruce:

1. Are Asian and want to keep the propogated myths of Bruce alive because he was one of few Asians who rise above the stereotype that Asians are weak.

2. Grew up in the 80's period of Martial Arts propoganda. These people can never accept that a non-Asian martial art is superior to an Asian martial art because of all the spectacular dubbed kung-fu movies they wathed and the fantastic Dim Mak books they read. 

3. They're usually skinny or fat and want to believe that you don't need to train or workout to be tough. You can touch the magical 'pressure point' that automaticaly secure a win. Acknowledging the strength of boxing or wrestling (which places heavy emphasis on physical condition) will interfere with their self perseption that they are or can be tough.

4. Are Bruce fans. They've watched all of his movies and ate up every single story Hollywood PR agents made w/Bruce and friends.

The thing all four have in common is that they use "he said, she said, it said" to replace logic. For example, one person said Bruce can kick people 20ft. A logical person would not believe this especially since there is no proof that bruce has ever kicked a person 20ft.

And yes, i'm Asian. I love Bruce's movies. I liked Bruce so much I started learning Wing Tsung. I used to be these people who believed the hollywood propogated stories until I did what Bruce Lee suggested: "Cross Train". Until I met with people like Danny Inosanto and Gene Lebell. Bruce is great, but a lot of his *DUMBASS FANS* make me want to hate him.


----------



## Id (Nov 26, 2005)

/\
l l  Ouch!...Well you could say that lee did build slightly stronger muscles for punching power that is. Because He mixed in several routines of cardiovascular, weight training, and working with dead lifts. And you can also say he trained like a mad man.

But 20 hrs of training + Punching power greater than 250 Ibs of mass  and about his speed, some one who is 225 Ibs can throw punches and has a reaction time just as fast as 130 Ibs person believe me I know..........


Well Gunshin I have a question for you, Ali in his prime (before he was striped from his title) vs Tyson at his prime (before the disappointing match with buster duglass and the loss of his trainer)

Who would win?


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## GayNinja (Nov 27, 2005)

I hate how a simple debate can turn into such a petty name-calling contest. I never disrespected Ali, I even said it would be a close match, I'm simply making a case for Bruce Lee whom all of you seem to have a grudge against. By the way Bunshin, thanks for calling me an idiot and retard, I really appreciate that. I guess you people don't know the meaning of respect around here. I never resorted to such low forms of argument. BTW, when you attempted to refute my paragraph on F=MA, you complained that there was no proof. Well, go take a introductory level in physics and read Newton's explanation. And I've only seen one Bruce Lee flick, but I've read 5 of his books. And since all you guys are so obsessed with evidence, show me a piece of document that "prooves" Ali could pwn Bruce Lee, otherwise, I'm sticking by my stance.


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## Crazy Like a Fox (Nov 27, 2005)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> I cant stop the thinkers from thinking, but the knowers already know that Lee is a joke
> 
> 
> Even though Lee spent a long time making his many movies, and Ali spent a long time kicking ass in front of millions...
> ...






There is no doubt in my mind that Ali is good, but in my opinion Lee is better. He started Jeet Kun Do (aka the way of the intercepting fist) with this thought in my mind Lee would literally intercept Ali's attack with his own. Since a leg can reach further then a arm I would assume that Lee's kick would intercept Ali's punch. Most people would assume that Lee would kick to the face, but he would mostly like aim for the knees or groin. I'm not saying Ali isn't conditioned, but Lee really fought street fights. I don't know if Ali did,  so that argument isn't valid. I saw Lee and his friends fight on some rooftops in a home movie. Ali's major downfall is he can't use his legs effectively as tools to strike with. In no way am I trying to say that Ali is weak fighter. In fact I have the a great deal of respect for him. I think he was an intelligent fighter and a great boxer, but in a real street fight I just can't see him winning. I respect your opinion, but I think Lee would win.


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## CABLE (Nov 27, 2005)

> He started Jeet Kun Do (aka the way of the intercepting fist) with this thought in my mind Lee would literally intercept Ali's attack with his own.



Jeet Kun Do is a martial arts philosophy which you obviously know nothing about.


> Since a leg can reach further then a arm I would assume that Lee's kick would intercept Ali's punch.


How would a leg intercept a punch?


> I'm not saying Ali isn't conditioned, but Lee really fought street fights.


O SNAP! Street fights! I get in them too, doesn't mean I could beat Ali.  Also his 'street fights' were no different than any other street fights, i assure you Ali fought on the streets.  Lee never even competed so we have no idea how strong he was.



> I saw Lee and his friends fight on some rooftops in a home movie.


Did your dad show you it?


> Ali's major downfall is he can't use his legs effectively as tools to strike with.


Arms are fine, he can easily beat the shit outta Lee with his arms.


> In no way am I trying to say that Ali is weak fighter.


Bruce Lee was only 5'7" and a modest weight, Ali was 6'4" and weight over 235 pounds of pure muscle.  Ali is loads stronger than Lee.


> I think he was an intelligent fighter and a great boxer, but in a real street fight I just can't see him winning.



Fuck street fighting, street fighting is way easier and way less intense than a real boxing match so Lee could have been in a million 'street fights' yet they would amount to nothing in the face of Muhammad Ali.



> I respect your opinion, but I think Lee would win.



I don't respect yours on the grounds you have no fucking idea what your talking about.


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## Jedi Mind Tricks (Nov 27, 2005)

Spacey said:
			
		

> Uh for people that says that Ali was well trained that is true but Bruce Lee trained *20 hours a day* so I'm going to have to hand this to Lee



Hahaha!

You've been watching way to much DragonballZ.


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## Spacey (Nov 27, 2005)

Jedi Mind Tricks said:
			
		

> Hahaha!
> 
> You've been watching way to much DragonballZ.




I don't watch DBZ


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## Kamendex (Nov 27, 2005)

Spacey said:
			
		

> I don't watch DBZ



Why not, it's a great show...helps you seperate fact from fiction


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## Dark_wolf247 (Nov 27, 2005)

Bruce Lee for the win. 



> Bruce Lee was only 5'7" and a modest weight, Ali was 6'4" and weight over 235 pounds of pure muscle. Ali is loads stronger than Lee.



Maybe Ali is stronger, but Lee is faster, is he not? *retarded and knows very little of Ali* I don't quite know how fast Ali is on his feet, but apparently, when Bruce Lee made his movies, they had to slow down the frames for his fight scenes or something. Then again, maybe that's just a rumor. [/random retarded reply]

edit: Kamendex, it's been way too long since I've seen you around here. I woulda repped you, but my stupid pop-up blocker hates me.


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## Crazy Like a Fox (Nov 27, 2005)

Master Hiko said:
			
		

> Jeet Kun Do is a martial arts philosophy which you obviously know nothing about.
> 
> How would a leg intercept a punch?
> 
> ...




Lol, I sense some hostility. I mean it is just my opinion. I'm not the almighty and  I'm neither one of them, so I can't know for sure. Just like you can't tell for sure But your allowed your opinion and I'm allowed mine. Its ok to have a disagreement, but let's keep civil. Now in regards to the home movie, I saw it on a special on a channel called amc. They showed this long ass special which had some home movies and what was supposed to be the real plot to the Game of Death. Its pretty good if your ever bored you should watch it. I think they already have the dvd for it at Suncoast. I agree with you about the street fight thing, but I still disagree with you about who would be the winner.


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## Scared Link (Nov 27, 2005)

Bruce Lee!

The fist of the dragon...


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## Skyfall (Nov 27, 2005)

Quoll said:
			
		

> Bruce Lee all the way. For those who question his toughness, he was semi known for streetfighting before he came to the US. I have seen Ali fight, but I don't know how he'd fare in a unsanctioned fight. If he doesn't have some experience w/ bare-knuckle fighting he'd break his hand quick and well...fight over.



Do you evan know the reason why they wear boxing gloves? Its so they dont kill each other.

Im sure he has probably been in alot more fights on the street than Lee has been in.


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## Spacey (Nov 27, 2005)

Walker said:
			
		

> Do you evan know the reason why they wear boxing gloves? Its so they dont kill each other.
> 
> Im sure he has probably been in alot more fights on the street than Lee has been in.




Meaning that he has lost ALOT more brain cells than lee has. And probably has worse reflexes and such.


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## Kamendex (Nov 27, 2005)

Dark_wolf247 said:
			
		

> Bruce Lee for the win.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lawl, hey Dark...havent seen you since anti-hinata 

what hap to that fanclub anyway


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## Jedi Mind Tricks (Nov 27, 2005)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> Why not, it's a great show...helps you seperate fact from fiction



Too right mate.


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## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 27, 2005)

hmm, this is poll. bruce lee for winner... cool. >_>


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## CABLE (Nov 27, 2005)

Lain Iwakura said:
			
		

> hmm, this is poll. bruce lee for winner... cool. >_>




Actually we deemed this battle over with Ali as the winner, yet people still choose to post in it like you, who like you as well, have nothing to back up Bruce Lee winning with.


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## Luciferxxxxx (Nov 27, 2005)

Master Hiko said:
			
		

> Actually we deemed this battle over with Ali as the winner, yet people still choose to post in it like you, who like you as well, have nothing to back up Bruce Lee winning with.


yep, this battle over for Bruce Lee is winner, jeez...
this is not boxing forum... you know that another Boxingforum Lee is winner.
looks like are you *heckler* of member from Boxingforum?...

What about bruce lee's with kick to Ali's with balls?...  well....


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## konflikti (Nov 27, 2005)

The fact that Bruce Lee has only marginally more votes proves that NF's members are at least somewhat informed, and tend to believe facts. It's usually the hype that calls the votes, so wheter it goes either way doesn't really prove a thing. I don't think there was anyone pro Ali yelling when he was ahead in votes. You're fighting a lost battle.

You take one boxing forum as your "fact", while there have been members who practice MA and boxing themselves, telling you that the hype about Bruce Lee is far from truth. Ali was a proved fighter, Bruce Lee was a proved actor. He probably has some merits in the martial arts department, but the size difference is something he can't overcome. Although I personally believe that he'd lose it to same size pro boxer too, even though that's of course closer.


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## Quoll (Nov 27, 2005)

Walker said:
			
		

> Do you evan know the reason why they wear boxing gloves? Its so they dont kill each other.



That's only half of it. The other reason to wear gloves is hand protection. A full force punch barehanded can cause your hand to break due to the hardness of the bones of the skull. There's a reason they refer to gloves as a boxer's weapon. If it was all about protection pros would wear the headgear olympic boxers do. As far as your second point, i'll take your word for it. For the most part i've abandoned arguing this since there is very little that can be offered as proof of a Lee win while everyone knows Ali is a champ and he's the G.O.A.T.


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## CABLE (Nov 28, 2005)

Lain Iwakura said:
			
		

> yep, this battle over for Bruce Lee is winner, jeez...
> this is not boxing forum... you know that another Boxingforum Lee is winner.
> looks like are you *heckler* of member from Boxingforum?...
> 
> What about bruce lee's with kick to Ali's with balls?...  well....



Wow.  I'm awarding you with: BIGGEST DOUCHE IN THE UNIVERSE

It seems you went out of your way to find some some boxing forum with a member that has said a few of the points I made in my arguements and now you are saying I am that person.  Well played Detective Dipshit.

Also, learn some fucking grammar.

And while your at that, get some real proof why Bruce would win, not links to some boxing forum.  Seriously, I won't make fun or disrespect you at all, just give me reasons as to why Ali would lose to Lee.


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## Fenix (Nov 30, 2005)

Most people here have never seen Ali fight.

Most people here also have no clue about Bruce Lee, only thinking he's a movie star therefore he's all fake.

.....do some research folks !~!


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## Gunshin (Nov 30, 2005)

Firemaw said:
			
		

> Most people here have never seen Ali fight.
> 
> Most people here also have no clue about Bruce Lee, only thinking he's a movie star therefore he's all fake.
> 
> .....do some research folks !~!


Actually the "for Ali" posters seem to know more about both. The "for Bruce" posters seem to know nothing about Ali and cannot seperate the fact and fiction of Bruce Lee. Nobody thinks or has said "because Bruce Lee is a movie star, he is fake". People have said that he was *not* high ranked in Wing Tsung and he rarely competed which is a fact. 

For Ali = LOGIC
For Bruce = Story/Hype/Propoganda

You'll notice that a lot of those for Ali understand the science of fighting. They'll use a formula such as "Ali = one of the greatest of his base art, Bruce = not close to the greatest of his base art" or "Ali fought top competition, can be proven vs. Bruce theoreticaly had rooftop streetfights with gangs in hongkong" or "Ali = fast(er, Bruce idolized Ali's footwork and speed), stronger, bigger, longer reach, more experience against top level world class competition > fast, couldn't budge Gene Lebell with his power, couldn't beat Gene Lebell (one of the few people where there is proof they fought against each other with Bruce losing, joining Gene's dojo, and forcing Brandon Lee to join as well), rarely next to never competed, theoreticaly fought um... *cough* top teenage competition on rooftops in hongkong. You have Ali people saying size + speed = power vs. "BRUCE CAN KICK TO 20FT!!!!111".


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## CABLE (Nov 30, 2005)

Gunshin said:
			
		

> Actually the "for Ali" posters seem to know more about both. *The "for Bruce" posters seem to know nothing about Ali and cannot seperate the fact and fiction of Bruce Lee.* Nobody thinks or has said "because Bruce Lee is a movie star, he is fake". People have said that he was *not* high ranked in Wing Tsung and he rarely competed which is a fact.
> 
> For Ali = LOGIC
> *For Bruce = Story/Hype/Propoganda*
> ...



Everything you have said especially those bolded I'd like to direct towards everything Lain Iwakura has posted.


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