# Who can react to Red Gai?



## LostSelf (Sep 19, 2015)

It looks like people believing Minato did react to Red Gai two times before he advanced an inch is common, along with Gaara's sand and Lee's speed in the 6th being incredibly fast. So, let's make some scenarios.

Only shinobis with thought activation jutsus are included.

The distance is the same Minato and Red Gai had between them when FTL Lee threw the Kunai.

The shinobis should just react and counter with their best jutsu. Shinra Tensei, Hiraishin, activating Susano'o, Kamui. 5 times.

The contestants are:

Minato
KCM Minato
Nagato
EMS Sasuke
EMS Madara
Rinnegan Obito

Scenario 2: The distance is now 50 meters. They can use any other jutsu to halt Gai's advantage. They need to survive until Gai cannot fight any longer.

Add Gaara's incredibly fast sand and 6th gated Lee .


----------



## Trojan (Sep 19, 2015)

> It looks like people believing Minato did react to Red Gai



by "people" do you mean me? 

People say
1- Gai slowed down.
2- Madara did not kick him at full power, he was afraid he would hurt Minato.
3- Obito was holding back
4- A/B did not use their full power/they were young...etc etc

So, please. 

anyway, only Minato as in canon


and Obito (if he has both eyes) can do it. The rest gets trashed.


----------



## J★J♥ (Sep 19, 2015)

They can't.


----------



## S (Sep 19, 2015)

None of them can react to red Gai.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> by "people" do you mean me?
> 
> People say
> 1- Gai slowed down.
> ...



I wouldn't make a thread if only one person believed that. Or i'll be making a lot of threads .

Gai slowing down is just a logical argument because it's more likely this than Gaara lifting his arm and raising Kakashi on top of his sand before Gai finished his step, and Lee using Shunshing equal to Red Gai. 

Believing that also would be believing that Sasuke's hand speed is much, but much faster than KCM Minato, you know why .

However, the reality of this is any of those. The reality is that Kishi fucked up, like in almost everything in the manga. And you, me and everybody else knows this . But let's continue.

You say base MInato can defeat Red Gai? .

Obito can have both eyes. But without Rikudo chakra (I suppose it was why Kakashi got so powerful), doubtfully can do it.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

I already explained why Gaara and Lee were pretty slow compared to 8 gates Gai and that FTG is infinite speed in two posts :


*Spoiler*: _First post_ 



Minato maid the strategy :


While Gaara was transporting Kakashi , Gai made several laps arround Madara :


Then while 6 gates Lee was using his Shunshin , he strikes Madara with 4 conecutive air cannons :

*Spoiler*: __ 








Before the fifth air cannon ,the distance between Lee and GudoDamas was about ten of times shorter than Gai that's why the kunai was there at the right moment :


Then finaly Minato used two consecutive FTG to teleport GudoDamas :


With just a little bit of reflexion , all manga feats are logic .






*Spoiler*: _second post_ 





> Gaara was not seen in the panel you provided because he didn't fit there.
> 
> Unless you tell me that Gaara read Minato's mind... Something unlikely. However, let's give it the benefit of the doubt and continue.


Well , he arrives after the 4 consecutive air cannons of Gai , delet the laps arroud Madara ... I don't know what you want to prove but *Gaara will never be just a bit as fast as Yagai .*



> And the sand reached in front of Gai? Seriously? Even if Gaara was below Madara. Getting the sand up there before Gai is an incredible feat, considering his sand couldn't keep up with Joki Boy.


Gaara was here after 4 air cannons of Gai while and he was at the whole opposite side after every strike plus he need some time to charge every punch . So no it isn't incredible at all .




> Next Panel shows Lee throwing a Kunai (Wich means he did while Gai already was moving)
> Next panel is the Kunai in front of Gai.


I don't know if you are trolling but next two pages , Gai used 4 consecutive air cannons ,* and the next page Lee was at exactly at the same positions of Gudo Dama while Gai was about tens of times further that's why he has the time to launch a Kunai , *you just try to prove nonsens ,  , Lee will never be even a little as fast as Yagai .

Plus , I don't know if you know , but FTG is infinite speed , Minato has just to think to activate it , I don't see where is the nonsens here .




And Iam sur that Minato haters will make excuses and will rape manga logic because they can support the fact that the fourt can avoid all speeders if he wants using the infinite speed FTG .


So :
-Obito can easily avoid all Yagai attacks using Kamui at any distance .
-Minato (base or KCM doesn't change a thing) can dodge him until he dies using FTG if the Kunais are already prepared at any distance , otherwise it will be instant kille , his moves are pretty slow compared to Juubi Jinchurikis .
-Nagato,Sasuke ,Madara will all be killed in at any distance , they will never have the time to use the smallest squeletal Susano'o at the same distance between Minato and red Gai , at 30m they can use V2 Susano'o/ST but it's not enough to save them .


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 19, 2015)

The thing is there is no movement of any of them while Gai was running circles on Juudara. They're not seen there and the panel is quite big to fit them all in there.

They only moved when Minato said "Just hit him, Gai!"

And that was when Gai began to move. Lee throwing his Kunai when Gai began to make his last attack is so clearly drawn in the panel's sequences that i find hard to believe we need to debate this part.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 19, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I wouldn't make a thread if only one person believed that. Or i'll be making a lot of threads .
> 
> Gai slowing down is just a logical argument because it's more likely this than Gaara lifting his arm and raising Kakashi on top of his sand before Gai finished his step, and Lee using Shunshing equal to Red Gai.
> 
> ...



I don't want to debate in this matter as it useless. There is only 1 truth, and denial. 
The truth is what was showing in the manga, and the rest of people chooses to be delusional. 

but anyway 

Just by taking a surprise kick Kimimaro rates Lee highly


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 19, 2015)

Go now check the page where Gaara lift his arm before Gai reached Juudara.

Is Gaara's arm speed above Red Gai, considering he did it when Gai was simple meters away from Madara? And answer me. Do you believe Minato in base can defeat Red Gai? .

Why leaving Lee's part out, dear Hussain? .


----------



## Trojan (Sep 19, 2015)

Lee was using 6 Gates.

Why do people find it possible "Oh my! There is no way Dai in the 8th Gate as strong/fast is Gai"
but when it comes to Lee it's impossible?

anyway, as I said that's the manga for you. Excepting it or not aint changing shit.
Just like how 4tails V2 Narudo took Oro's sword without a scratch, but himself with full Kurama/Hago's chakra couldn't

it is, what it is. 


Likewise, JJ Madara got trashed by teen Sasuke.

Kinkshiki rivals that speed and send Adult Sasuke flying.

But the new Kages deal with him just fine. 

and so on and so forth. 

Even if you don't want to accept it, it does not change the fact that it IS a fact/canon.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

Just what I said they will rape manga logic because they cna't support Minato being able to dodge Yagai moves .  .




> The thing is there is no movement of any of them while Gai was running circles on Juudara. They're not seen there and the panel is quite big to fit them all in there.


So 4 consecutive air cannons arent't moves , and Yagai didn't move from area to whole opposite area between each cannon before Lee arrives , and 6 gates Lee is faster than Yagai , yeah it's very logic .




> Gai slowing down is just a logical argument because it's more likely this than Gaara lifting his arm and raising Kakashi on top of his sand before Gai finished his step, and Lee using Shunshing equal to Red Gai.


Same here :

*Spoiler*: __ 



So 4 consecutive air cannons arent't moves , and Yagai didn't move from area to whole opposite area between each cannon before Lee arrives , and 6 gates Lee is faster than Yagai , yeah it's very logic .



Just replace Lee by Gaara .



> However, the reality of this is any of those. The reality is that Kishi fucked up, like in almost everything in the manga. And you, me and everybody else knows this . But let's continue.


Just as I said they only make excuses and rape manga's logic for the third time . Like Madara's Gudo Dama will stop because he was afraid to hit Minato  .




> You say base MInato can defeat Red Gai? .


It depends , if Kunais are already prepared , then he is by far better than anyone even Juubi Jinchurikis at dodging if not it will be instant kill . Obito's Kamui is the same , even with one MS he can beat Yagai because he can hold him more than 5 minutes .


----------



## Mercurial (Sep 19, 2015)

No one is reacting to him. Only god tiers are and for people like Rinnegan Sasuke and Juubi Madara that's heavily doubtful. Toneri, Momoshiki and Juubi Obito aren't reacting.


----------



## Bonly (Sep 19, 2015)

Only Minato can react here although if Lee was on the list I'd say he could as well


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

@*Raikiri*

Minato already reacted to him using 2 consecutive FTG .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 19, 2015)

>Using Minato's feat as legit
>When Sage Minato got his arm cut off and got kicked (in this order) by Juudara before he could react
>Same Juudara that Red Gai kept blitzing during the match.

What's next, using Sakura's feat in which she damage Kaguya as legit (when the same Kaguya took no damage form 9 RS)?


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

> >When Sage Minato got his arm cut off and got kicked (in this order) by Juudara before he could react
> >Same Juudara that Red Gai kept blitzing during the match.


Since when avoiding using FTG is the same as physical moves attacking , for the third time they just make excuses as always :
-Minato's moves speed (base or KCM , it's the same against Juubi's power)<<<<<<<<Juubi Jinchurikies moves speed<<Yagi
-Minato's FTG activation speed>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yagai moves speed>>Juubi Jinchurikies moves speed .

It's that simple , but apparently anti-Minato team will never understand that .  and they will invent some new stories about it despite manga's logic .


----------



## Kai (Sep 19, 2015)

Why is it hard to believe that the team simply timed intercepting the truth seekers perfectly again?


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Since when avoiding using FTG is the same as physical moves attacking , for the third time they just make excuses as always



No. Hiraishin's activation depends on his reaction, that why Ei was at his face before he could use Hiraishin and he lost his arm trying to hiraishin against JJ Obito.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2015)

All the people who did in the manga

In the panel Husain posted, gaara says his sand isn't fast enough . Minato says no worries Kakashi has my Kunai . So maybe minato teleported Kakashi into position


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> No. Hiraishin's activation depends on his reaction, that why Ei was at his face before he could use Hiraishin and he lost his arm trying to hiraishin against JJ Obito.


Then the new story , no FTG depends of his thinking , if think to teleport , he will do it sintantly . Ei was so close because of one only reason,  he launched a FTG Kunai before for the counterattack  , *it's an arm MOVE plus tactic elaboration* . Otherwise , just a Shunshin is more than enough because the distance between them will be less than V2 old Raikage vs KCM Naruto .

He lost an arm against Obito JJ because he* moved , he used his arm to attack* , and since Juubi Jinchuriki's moves speed is at a whole another level , he simply lost his arm .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Then the new story , no FTG depends of his thinking , if think to teleport , he will do it sintantly .



Literally what I said. Hiraishin's speed itself is instant, but Minato's thinking speed isn't.



> Ei was so close because of one only reason,  he launched a FTG Kunai before for the counterattack  , *it's an arm MOVE plus tactic elaboration*



Wut?



> Otherwise , just a Shunshin is more than enough because the distance between them will be less than V2 old Raikage vs KCM Naruto .



No? If he could do it with only his shunshin he wouldn't need to throw his kunais everywhere.



> He lost an arm against Obito JJ because he* moved , he used his arm to attack* , and since Juubi Jinchuriki's moves speed is at a whole another level , he simply lost his arm .



Except that the attack was intercepted before JJ Obito attacked, so he wasn't in the middle of an attack.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

Fyewwww , people don't read the manga .

First of all Raikage was alreading Shunshining while Minato was launching many Kunais :

*Spoiler*: __ 








Despite he was shunshining before time , Minato perfectly followed him and see through his move :


Then in fragments of second he aleborate countrattack strategy , he didn't simply evade with a classic Shunshin or FTG , but he through out a Kunai behind Raikage to counterattack :


First Kunai position :


Then (Kunai launched)


FTG to another Kunai to evade :


And finally FTG to the Kunai he laucnhed for the strike :


And It's only because of that that Raikage was close to his nose . He used the FTG Kunai to counterattack not to just evade like a basic Shunshin or FTG normal use .



> Except that the attack was intercepted before JJ Obito attacked, so he wasn't in the middle of an attack.


Euuuh , no JJ Obito cut his arm while he was moving . so ...

*Edit :* I forgot but you seem to always avoid this passage :

Maybe you don't have answer , and it's is an enough prove that Minato was just playing with Raikage .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> First of all Raikage was alreading Shunshining while Minato was launching many Kunais :
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Literally look like he was just charging his raiton armor, not shunshin.



> Despite he was shunshining before time , Minato perfectly followed him and see through his move :



See above.



> Then in fragments of second he aleborate countrattack strategy , he didn't simply evade with a classic Shunshin or FTG , but he through out a Kunai behind Raikage to counterattack :



And?



> First Kunai position :
> 
> 
> Then (Kunai launched)
> ...



Yes, because FTG'd twice in a row somehow show that he can dodge with just shunshin.



> And It's only because of that that Raikage was close to his nose . He used the FTG Kunai to counterattack not to just evade like a basic Shunshin or FTG normal use .



Wut? The counterattack was after the FTG, not before.

And again: why would he throw his kunai everywhere if he can just dodge the raikage with his normal speed?



> Euuuh , no JJ Obito cut his arm while he was moving . so ...



How him moving matter to FTG? To make it worst, he actually saw the attack coming.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> *Edit :* I forgot but you seem to always avoid this passage :
> 
> Maybe you don't have answer , and it's is an enough prove that Minato was just playing with Raikage .



First of all, how do you get that Minato was playing with the Raikage with that? 

Second of all, how is that important, to my argument (as in, how Minato being > Red Gate in speed is an outlier)?


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

> Yes, because FTG'd twice in a row somehow show that he can dodge with just shunshin.


Show me that he can't  .



> Yes, because FTG'd twice in a row somehow show that he can dodge with just shunshin.


Apparently , I don"t know if you do it on purpose or no , but you didn't read anything of my post , I will resume :

While V2 Ei is Shunshinning before he reach his face :
-Minato launched many Kunais = so many arm moves .
-He saw Ei extremely near to him , he elaborate a counterattack strategy witch take much more time than just "think to evade" .
-He throught up a FTG Kunai with high precision so that it will stay near V2 Raikage witch take much more time than a normal launch .

After that :
-Minato used two consecutive FTG , and strikes while the Kunai he launched first still behind/above V2 Raikage . 

It's prove that his speed moves are higher than V2 Raikage , and also if he wants to just avoid , he could use FTG or Shunshin since there :


Since Minato used 2 FTG against Yagai ,then the avoiding FTG use has shown no limit that's all . If he just want to evade Raikage's attacks he can do it very easily .



> First of all, how do you get that Minato was playing with the Raikage with that?


Minato didn't even fight to kill them : 




> And again: why would he throw his kunai everywhere if he can just dodge the raikage with his normal speed?


For precaution , it was their first meet , Minato didn't know their level , plus he was fighting both Ei and Bee , two high level speeder .



> Second of all, how is that important, to my argument (as in, how Minato being > Red Gate in speed is an outlier)?


I have already gave my opinion :

*Spoiler*: __ 



-Minato (base or KCM doesn't change a thing) can dodge him until he dies using FTG if the Kunais are already prepared at any distance , otherwise it will be instant kille , his moves are pretty slow compared to Juubi Jinchurikis .


----------



## RBL (Sep 19, 2015)

noone can, not even Itachi  who is supposed to be the strongest one


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Just what I said they will rape manga logic because they cna't support Minato being able to dodge Yagai moves .  .



This won't help the argument, at all. Basically, it will only waste you time considering it's not an argument and you prove nothing with it.



> So 4 consecutive air cannons arent't moves , and Yagai didn't move from area to whole opposite area between each cannon before Lee arrives , and 6 gates Lee is faster than Yagai , yeah it's very logic .
> 
> Same here :
> 
> ...



So you twisted arguments because of lack of proof? What does Gai have to do with movement when you're clearly debating about what Lee and Gaara did? I'm speaking english here, my friend. And i'm certain i said:_ "There's no movement of any of them while Gai was running in circles_", wich clearly implies that Gaara and Lee weren't moving.

Unless, for you, "Any of them" means Gai, considering that "Them" is a plural word. And Gai, who is one, wouldn't be used in that sentence. Considering there was no counter argument rather than twisting something so clear, i accept that concession.

The funny thing is that my arguments are the ones being called ilogical...


> Just as I said they only make excuses and rape manga's logic for the third time . Like Madara's Gudo Dama will stop because he was afraid to hit Minato  .



Excuses. Please . You're the one saying Rock Lee shunshin'd to Gai's position to make Minato's feat look legit. Seriously? .


> It depends , if Kunais are already prepared , then he is by far better than anyone even Juubi Jinchurikis at dodging if not it will be instant kill . Obito's Kamui is the same , even with one MS he can beat Yagai because he can hold him more than 5 minutes .



He can have 100 Kunais prepped. And from the distance Gai was, Minato would dodge nothing. Ei almost Homeruns his face with a punch. Red Gai's much, but much faster.

You have no proof at all to assume Gai only lasts 5 minutes on red gate.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Lee was using 6 Gates.
> 
> Why do people find it possible "Oh my! There is no way Dai in the 8th Gate as strong/fast is Gai"
> but when it comes to Lee it's impossible?
> ...



Let's see then:

You say Obito can use Kamui and troll Red Gai. Gai in like 2nd gate outran the TSB, who were too fast for double Kamui.

So 2nd Gated Gai is faster than Kamui, who is faster than 8th gated Gai.

Or Lee. Poor Lee saying he lacked power, when his shunshing in the 6th was already as fast as red Gai.

No, much faster... .


----------



## RBL (Sep 19, 2015)

hussain is going to debate till the end just to make gai look like he is overrated


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Show me that he can't .





KCM Naruto > Minato in normal speed.



> Apparently , I don"t know if you do it on purpose or no , but you didn't read anything of my post , I will resume :
> 
> While V2 Ei is Shunshinning before he reach his face :
> -Minato launched many Kunais = so many arm moves .
> ...



I love how you kept ignoring the fact that not only Raikage wasn't shunshin'ing (his fight against Sasuke show that just because he charge his Raiton mean he's shunshin'ing), but the fact that Raikage was slowing down (how else would Teen Bee be able to attack Minato) 



> Since Minato used 2 FTG against Yagai ,then the avoiding FTG use has shown no limit that's all . If he just want to evade Raikage's attacks he can do it very easily .



1)FTG wasn't used against Yagai at all.
2)"FTG showing no limit" is NLF
3)Yeah no, because as I keep stating, *if he could do so without Hiraishin then why did he set it up?*



> Minato didn't even fight to kill them :



Hussain plz, just because he decided to stop the fight doesn't mean he didn't want to kill them 



> For precaution , it was their first meet , Minato didn't know their level , plus he was fighting both Ei and Bee , two high level speeder .



He known their level via Rep. What are you talking about? 



> I have already gave my opinion :
> -Minato (base or KCM doesn't change a thing) can dodge him until he dies using FTG if the Kunais are already prepared at any distance , otherwise it will be instant kille , *his moves are pretty slow compared to Juubi Jinchurikis .*



I sincerely hope you're not talking about 8th Gate Gai here.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

*@LostSelf*

Apparently you didn't read my text , yeah 8 Gates Gai was turning arround while Minato are talking strategy to Kakashi and Gaara . But what I said is this for both Lee and Gaara :

_So 4 consecutive air cannons arent't moves , and Yagai didn't move from area to whole opposite area between each cannon before Lee arrives , and 6 gates Lee is faster than Yagai , yeah it's very logic .
_


And please go read chapter 667 .

First Minato made the strategy and talks with Gaara/Kakashi about it and since this page they all beginning moving :

*Spoiler*: __ 








At the same time , red Gai used fourth consecutive air cannons , mobing from area to a hole opposite area :

*Spoiler*: __ 








And before the 5th strikes Lee was already at the same position of Gudo Damas (somehow 1m under them) while Yagai was tens of meters further , that's why he could launch the Kunai .

Finally , Minato used two consecutive FTG , and because FTG is infinite speed , despite the very short distance between them Minato was able to teleport GudoDamas before its touch Red Gai .

So , that's very logic and respect all manga feats , Gaara and 6 gate Lee speed<<<<<<Yagau speed , and FTG is infinite speed . But I think you will surely not read my post like you did the 3 times before , and you will say without any argument , plus you will not care about manga's coherence because you don't accept that Minato can do such a thing .

Please , read what I write before responding , and like *I said you try to prove something totaly illogic like Red Gai = Lee or Gaara in speed , just because you don't support the fact that Minato can dodge every character attack if he wants .*




> You say Obito can use Kamui and troll Red Gai. Gai in like 2nd gate outran the TSB, who were too fast for double Kamui.


It's the sixth gate dude , oh man ...




> So 2nd Gated Gai is faster than Kamui, who is faster than 8th gated Gai.


It depends on distance , logically 6 Gates Gai was by far much closer to Kakashi than the Gudo Dama , so he intercepted it , and I am certain that you will try a completely ludicrous argument like no he was 10 times further . I anticipated that , and I respond that while Kishi didn't show us anything , I choose the most logical feat .

And yeah depending on distance 6 gate Gai can be faster than a human size Kamui .


----------



## Mercurial (Sep 19, 2015)

KCM Minato was unable to react in time against Juubito, he not only was able to Hiraishin away after Juubito already hit him but didn't even notice that Juubito attacked a Gudodama to him. SM Minato Minato was unable to react in time against Juudara, he was counterblitzed and hit and then hit again, and was unable to Hiraishin away at all, even when he was going to hit Gaara he still wasn't able to use Hiraishin in time.

And yet we should believe that base Minato is able to react and use Hiraishin against 8th Gate Gai, who is much much much faster than Juudara, who is faster than Juubito, who is too fast for a powered up version of Minato. LOL.

Gai was moving in mid air by kicking the air itself, so, to speak, even if fast enough to blitz Juudara, his speed couldn't be at his best in first place. Gai purposely slowed down, even if not stopping or changing his path, to let his companions help him; otherwise they would have never been able to do that; that's the only way to have this make sense, since Juudara, who wasn't able to react to Gai's speed, was suddenly able to do that in that situation, and even counterattack him (strange... not strange if Gai slowed down), since Gaara's sand that was carrying Kakashi was almost as fast as Gai, since Minato who wasn't able to mentally react to Juudara two times one after another, and previously even blitzed by Juubito, was suddenly able to casually react to Gai, someone a lot faster than even Juudara who is the same opponent he couldn't even react to previously, since Lee was able to fucking throw a kunai that moved far faster than 8th Gate Gai could, since Juudara's Gudodama, that Gai was able to effortlessy outspeed before with a far lesser level of Gates and therefore of speed, were suddenly able to threat him; it was just Kishimoto using all the characters around for a team effort, especially Kakashi who in the end used Kamui to open the path for his Eternal Rival's attack. That shouldn't even debatable, if Gai didn't slow himself nothing make sense, if Gai slowed himself everything makes perfectly sense.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

@*Raikiri *

Minato was moving , if he moves his arm one time he will be blitzed 3 or 4 times by Juubi Jinchurikis at the same time , that's why he loss both his arms , you say that Gai slowed down but what about Madara's Gudo Dama... Was he afraid to hit Minato ? Like I already said :

FTG activation speed>>>>>>>>> Yagai moves speed>Juubi Jin moves speed>>>>>>>>>>>>KCM Minato moves speed>>>Base Minato moves speed .

If he attacks he will be deadly damadged , if he just concentrate on avoiding , he can do it easily if FTG were already prepared .


----------



## Mercurial (Sep 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> @*Raikiri *
> 
> Minato was moving , if he moves his arm one time he will be blitzed 3 or 4 times by Juubi Jinchurikis at the same time , that's why he loss both his arms , you say that Gai slowed down but what about Madara's Gudo Dama... Was he afraid to hit Minato ? Like I already said :
> 
> ...



Not at all. Because Hiraishin's teleporting speed is istant, but Hiraishin activationi is not, it depends on the user's reflexes. Hiraishin teleporting used by Choji and by Sasuke, if they were able to use the jutsu, will be equally as fast, but Sasuke will be infinitely faster actually because his reflexes allow to activate Hiraishin far faster than Choji can process. Minato's reflexes even when enhanced by SM and KCM aren't enough to compete with Juubi jinchuriki level speed, and Gai with the 8th Gate far outclasses that level of speed who was already too much for Minato. 

Gai slowed down to let his companions help him in a coordinated effort, hence Lee throwing a kunai that moved far faster than Gai himself, hence Madara suddenly being able to react to Gai while a second after he was completely blitzed, and so on.

Not to mention that Ya-gai's speed is even higher than 8th Gate Gai's normal speed. Which is higher than 8th Gate Gai's speed when running in mid air, that was the speed he used mostly against Juudara, and that he slowed down to let his companions coordinate with him.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 19, 2015)

None of them can react to Gai's speed on the ground. 

When Sky swimming, which logically would reduce his speed significantly, perhaps KCM Minato reacts, highly unlikely though considering Madara failed to react to multiple Evening Elephants that hit him from blindsides, which were possible becasue of Gai's sky swimming speed allowing him to pass behind him without Madara perceiving/reacting.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

@*Raikiri*

Minato lost his arms not because of Hiraishin but his moves are pretty slow compared to Juubi Jins :

He wanted to strike Madara using Rasengan but  Madara cut his arm before he can do it , so the probleme is clearly about moves , even SM or KCM contribution isn't enough to replace Juubi's power :

*Spoiler*: _Madara cutting SM Minato before he pursues his arm move_ 








Plus Madara couldn't react to Yagai in the sky , he was turning around him , and striked him so quickly that he hasn't time to dodge :

*Spoiler*: __ 







then :

*Spoiler*: __ 








Even in the sky Yagai 's moves speed>>>Madara JJ moves speed .

Plus Gudama's moves are faster than Madara JJ , Minato used two consecutive FTG before it touches Yagai , and Yagai arrives to the Kunai's position .


----------



## Kyu (Sep 19, 2015)

Willing to bet the same folks calling Minato's feat an outlier sees nothing out of place with Tobirama's _clone_ being 'faster' than Kyuubi Minato in spite of getting rekt by SM Madara.


----------



## Mercurial (Sep 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> @*Raikiri*
> 
> Minato lost his arms not because of Hiraishin but his moves are pretty slow compared to Juubi Jins :
> 
> ...



The fact is that Madara and Obito were too fast for Minato. If they weren't, even if they were faster, he could still dodge them with Hiraishin. He couldn't do that, because they were too much fast for him not only to physically fight them, but to even follow their speed and activate Hiraishin.

It isn't Ya-gai. It's Sekizo. This is Ya-gai/Night Guy:


*Spoiler*: __ 



​



*Spoiler*: __ 



Read chapter 672​



And Ya-gai is 8th Gate Gai's fastest speed. That speed > normal speed > mid air speed (the one he was still using to blitz Madara and use Sekizo, and that he slowed down to let his far slower companions combo with him).

Gudodama aren't faster than Juubi Madara, at all. Since Gai with a Gate lower than 6th (judging by how he looked) could outrun and intercept a point blank one when it was less than 1/2 mt from Kakashi's face.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

Minato told to Gay to not slowing down no matter what before he used FTG :

It proves that Minato is confident about Hiraishin speed activation , he say he can use it twice before Yagai strikes even at a very short distance that implies he can see throught 8 gates Gai moves .



> It isn't Ya-gai. It's Sekizo. This is Ya-gai/Night Guy:


Yeah Iam talking about Sekizo   , Gai was much faster than Madara JJ even in the sky .



> And Ya-gai is 8th Gate Gai's fastest speed. That speed > normal speed > mid air speed (the one he was still using to blitz Madara and use Sekizo, and that he slowed down to let his far slower companions combo with him).


We don't have the proof of these statements , maybe Gai is faster in mi air than normal , but Yagai is defnitly faster , yeah , but not two times , since Minato used two consecutive FTG .



> Gudodama aren't faster than Juubi Madara, at all. Since Gai with a Gate lower than 6th (judging by how he looked) could outrun and intercept a point blank one when it was less than 1/2 mt from Kakashi's face.


Madara used GudoDama's here here because it's faster than his Shunshin :

*Spoiler*: __ 







Maybe 6 gates Gai intercepted GudaDamas , but that doesn't mean he is faster , all depending on distance .

If 6 gates Gai speed = 10 su (speed unit) , and Gudodama's speed = 100 su , then if Gai was 10 times closer to Kakashi than it , he would easily intercepted it .


----------



## Tarot (Sep 19, 2015)

>*Implying speed feats are consistent and have no other variables*


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 19, 2015)

Not really sure why sky swimming feats are being brought up, none of these guys can fly so Gai has no reason to get off the ground where he should be significantly faster.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2015)

Or Maybe Madara JJ was flying , so he had to fly to be more efficient . 
in a nutshell , in both cases , Madara JJ was overwhelmed by Gai's speed .


----------



## Kinjishi (Sep 19, 2015)

No one can. 8th Gate Gai is hands down the fastest individual in the series. That's why his ability comes with such a fatal drawback.


----------



## Gibbs (Sep 19, 2015)

Naruto can certainly react to him.


----------



## ARGUS (Sep 20, 2015)

> Minato
> KCM Minato
> Nagato
> EMS Sasuke
> ...



Based on the fact that Jin Madara was struggling to keep up with 8th gate guy 
It is fair to say that all of these clowns get blitzed with no reaction whatsoever 

As for people reacting to guy. Well anyone above one eyed Madara in speed reacts to him just fine 
Naruto, and kaguya are even faster than him


----------



## Ryuzaki (Sep 20, 2015)

No one on that list can really react to it except perhaps Obito w/his unconscious activating of phasing ability but even then I'd say Gai outlasts him with 8th Gate. (at least the 5-minute rule)


----------



## t0xeus (Sep 20, 2015)

Rikkudo powered Sasuke and Naruto react to him, two-eyed jin Madara and Kaguya as well.
*
ANYONE* else gets blitz'd.


----------



## Ghoztly (Sep 20, 2015)

Nobody can.

There is a reason why it kills the user. And given Gai is already one of the fasest characters, no chance.


----------



## t0xeus (Sep 20, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Nobody can.
> 
> There is a reason why it kills the user. And given Gai is already one of the fasest characters, no chance.



Shiki Fuujin also kills the user, but P1 Orochimaru outplayed Hiruzen, so that jutsu kills the user means nothing.

Rikkudo Naruto and Sasuke are powered by the god himself, they should be able to at least block his punches or something (maybe not fully dodge, but come on).

Sasuke was also able to blitz Madara when he stole Kakashi's eye and Naruto later on blitz'd Kaguya.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Sep 20, 2015)

None of those guys react.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 20, 2015)

Based on minatos feat of teleporting the truthseekers before gai could reach him, there are shinobi who could react to gai. Madara reacts with susano, most notably PS which reduces gai to a stain smeared across the landscape.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> by "people" do you mean me?
> 
> People say
> 1- Gai slowed down.
> ...



KCM Minato couldnt teleport away from far slower Juubito. SM Minato couldnt teleport away from Juubidara, who got blitzed by 8th Gate Gai, Gaara's sand moved faster than 8th Gate Gai when he prepared 5th Step, Kakashi reacted to his speed and used long-ranged Kamui before Gai closed the distance with Juubidara.

8th Gate Gai clearly slowed down. It makes sense, especially when he knew about his teammates and wanted to hit Juubidara, not his Gudoudama.

None of this shinobi can react to him.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

Scans that show on panel he slowed down 
Oh wait 
Can't provide such 
Fanfic


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Scans that show on panel he slowed down
> Oh wait
> Can't provide such
> Fanfic



Logic and common sense. That's what it is. Not fanfic. 

But ok - i want you to provide a scan that shows on panel Sasuke's PS sword was amped by senjutsu when he cut Juubito.

No scan that shows senjutsu amp on panel?

*Yeah, that's it.*


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

I post one of my previous posts here , that should solve many problems for objective people :



*Spoiler*: __ 



It seems that a lot can't make a difference between :
-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .
-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .
-FTG defensive dodging with preparation


*I-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .:*

general rule : If the ennemy is marked ,Juubi Jinchuriki or not he will be striked .

Examples :

-Tobirama used FTG to telport the GudoDama before KCM Minato who is much faster can en his move , *and Obito JJ didn't have time to react to Tobirama :*

*Spoiler*: __ 








-Obito JJ can't dodge two consecutive FTG (normal FTG + Hiraishin mawashi) :

*Spoiler*: __ 









-Obito JJ can't react to SM Naruto :

*Spoiler*: __ 









*II-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .:*

general rule : If the ennemy has much better reflexes and very quick move he can dodge the FTG user .

Examples :

-SM Madara who is much slower than Obito JJ avoided Tobirama's HiraishinGiri :


-KCM Minato who is much faster than Tobirama lost his arm against Obito JJ :

*Spoiler*: __ 








-SM Minato who is much faster than Tobirama lost his second arm against Madara JJ :

*Spoiler*: __ 









*III--FTG defensive dodging with preparation :*

General rule : If FTG Kunais are laready prepared , the FTG can avoid any ennemie's attack at any distance , he has juts to think if he wants to escape.

-Base Minato can use two consecutive FTG in a very short distance between 8 gates Gai and Madara JJ's Gudo Damas (plus GudoDamas are faster than Madara JJ himself) :



*Conclusion :* depending on situation and FTG user toughts , he can be blited or not , but if he want just to escape he can easily do it .


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> I post one of my previous posts here , that should solve many problems for objective people :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



KCM Minato couldnt teleport away from Juubito in order to prevent him from tearing his arm off.



SM Minato couldnt teleport away from Juubidara in order to prevent him from tearing his arm off and kicking him.



And 8th Gate Gai slowed down in order to allow his friends to help him hit Juubidara himself, not his Gudoudama. Unless you think that Gaara's sand speed is faster than 8th Gate Gai's movement speed, which gave lots of trouble to Juubidara before that.



Plus, Tobirama has faster movement speed and reflexes than Minato. A lot faster. Minato has faster Shunshin and better Hiraishin. That's it.

None of these contenders can react to 8th Gate Gai. None of them will be able to react, at all.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> KCM Minato couldnt teleport away from Juubito in order to prevent him from tearing his arm off.
> 
> 
> 
> SM Minato couldnt teleport away from Juubidara in order to prevent him from tearing his arm off and kicking him.


Yeah because it's the second type "*II-FTG attacks when the ennemy isn't marked*", read my post before responding nonsense 





> And 8th Gate Gai slowed down in order to allow his friends to help him hit Juubidara himself, not his Gudoudama. Unless you think that Gaara's sand speed is faster than 8th Gate Gai's movement speed, which gave lots of trouble to Juubidara before that.


I am talking about avoiding attacks with FTG Kunais already prepared lol and you talk about moves attacks speed looooooool  , *plus no Juubi Jinchuriki can avoid a FTG attack when he is marked if not give me an example .*




> Plus, Tobirama has faster movement speed and reflexes than Minato. A lot faster. Minato has faster Shunshin and better Hiraishin. That's it.


Looooooooool , give me the feat , because I didn't ever see such a nonsens .




> None of these contenders can react to 8th Gate Gai. None of them will be able to react, at all.


Lol , Show me the facts you are just blablablablablabla without any argument , plus I already explained why :
8 Gates Gai speed>>>>>>>6 Gates Lee speed>Gaara speed .
And that GudoDamas speed>Madara JJ speed
Go read my previous posts , I will not repeat what I said several times , you are just searching to fuck manga logic because you don't support Minato beeing able to FTG 2 times before Yagai can move .


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 21, 2015)

> Yeah because it's the second type "II-FTG attacks when the ennemy isn't marked", read my post before responding nonsense



The speed of FTG isnt different, at all. And it always requires a mental thought to be used. Minato couldnt mentally react to Juubidara, even when his reaction speed was amped by Sage Mode. There is no way he will be able to activate FTG in order to dodge 8th Gate Gai. He cant react to him, at all.



> I am talking about avoiding attacks with FTG Kunais already prepared lol and you talk about moves attacks speed looooooool , plus no Juubi Jinchuriki can avoid a FTG attack when he is marked if not give me an example .



And? He needs to mentally react to 8th Gate Gai in order to teleport away. The fact is - he wont be able to do that. Minato, who's reaction speed was amped by KCM, couldnt teleport away from Juubito. Minato, who's reaction speed was amped by Sage Mode, couldnt teleport away from Juubidara. Base Minato gets himself killed. He doesnt have reaction speed fast enough to teleport away before 8th Gate Gai hits him. Even 7th Gate Gai can speedblitz him, judging from his performance against Juubidara.



> Looooooooool , give me the feat , because I didn't ever see such a nonsens .



Tobirama marked Juubito when they were in a close distance. When Minato, amped by KCM, was in a close distance with Juubito, he couldnt do anything. Tobirama's clone teleported Gudoudama away before KCM Minato could touch it. 

Here you go.



> Lol , Show me the facts you are just blablablablablabla without any argument , plus I already explained why :
> 8 Gates Gai speed>>>>>>>6 Gates Lee speed>Gaara speed .
> And that GudoDamas speed>Madara JJ speed
> Go read my previous posts , I will not repeat what I said several times , you are just searching to fuck manga logic because you don't support Minato beeing able to FTG 2 times before Yagai can move .



Gudoudama's speed > Juubidara's speed? Prove that.

I gave them to you. If amped Minato couldnt teleport away from Juubito and Juubidara, he gets killed against someone who is much faster than either of them - 8th Gate Gai. Judging from feats, even 7th Gate Gai can kill Minato before he teleports away.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Apparently you didn't read the manga well .



> The speed of FTG isnt different, at all. And it always requires a mental thought to be used. Minato couldnt mentally react to Juubidara, even when his reaction speed was amped by Sage Mode. There is no way he will be able to activate FTG in order to dodge 8th Gate Gai. He cant react to him, at all.


Yeah FTG doesn't change but Iam not talking about that , if the ennemy isn"t marked , the user can't teleport instantly into fim , he teleport himself to the mark first , then strike , and because of that JJ can easily blitz him because their moves are much faster and the mark is somewhere futher than them . And thats why if a JJ is marked even SM Naruto can strike him with ease like I post previously , and please you must think before posting nonsens .



> And? He needs to mentally react to 8th Gate Gai in order to teleport away. The fact is - he wont be able to do that. Minato, who's reaction speed was amped by KCM, couldnt teleport away from Juubito. Minato, who's reaction speed was amped by Sage Mode, couldnt teleport away from Juubidara. Base Minato gets himself killed. He doesnt have reaction speed fast enough to teleport away before 8th Gate Gai hits him. Even 7th Gate Gai can speedblitz him, judging from his performance against Juubidara.


Fewwwwwww , again :
Minato's perception speed>=Minato's Mental thinking speed>=FTG activation speed>>>>>>>>>>KCM Minato moves speed>>base Minato moves speed .
Plus Minato can easily see through Red Gai moves and he is confident about teleporting two times between him and GudoDamas :

*Spoiler*: __ 







Plus go read again my previous explicative post . All manga feats without exception perfectly illustrate what I said .




> Tobirama marked Juubito when they were in a close distance. When Minato, amped by KCM, was in a close distance with Juubito, he couldnt do anything. Tobirama's clone teleported Gudoudama away before KCM Minato could touch it.


Again you didn't seem to make difference between the Jutsu's activation , moves and thinking speed .
Tobirama didn't react to Obito JJ's speed , but to GudoDam's changing form speed , and it's pretty slow :
In the same situation , KCM Naruto used two chakra arms and another one tow catch Minato who is about 10/15m further than him :

If Tobirama's can't even do that , then he don't deserve his title of "the fastest Shinobis" of his time .
Then :
Obito JJ moves>>>>>>>KCM Minato's moves>>Minato's moves>=KCM Naruto moves speed>=Tobirama's moves>>Gudo Dama's changing form speed .



> Tobirama's clone teleported Gudoudama away before KCM Minato could touch it.


What I said before :
Tobirama's perception speed>=Tobirama's Mental thinking speed>=FTG activation speed>>>>>>>>>>KCM Minato moves speed>>base Minato moves speed>=Tobirama's moves speed >> Gudo Dama's changing form speed .
Tobirama don't need to move a lot when Minato is already marked by him , same thing for SM Naruto vs Obito JJ , and that's why he was striked by rasengan .



> Gudoudama's speed > Juubidara's speed? Prove that.


He used GudoDama's against Kakashi and Obito ,not his Shunshin , there isn't a more convincing arguments .


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 21, 2015)

> Apparently you didn't read the manga well .



*Apparantly you didnt read the manga well.* See? I can do that too. 



> Yeah FTG doesn't change but Iam not talking about that , if the ennemy isn"t marked , the user can't teleport instantly into fim , he teleport himself to the mark first , then strike , and because of that JJ can easily blitz him because their moves are much faster and the mark is somewhere futher than them . And thats why if a JJ is marked even SM Naruto can strike him with ease like I post previously , and please you must think before posting nonsens .



Juubidara could blitz Minato because he is a lot faster than Minato's mere thought. Minato couldnt activate FTG to evade Juubidara's strikes. That means, he couldnt mentally react to him. And his reaction speed was *amped* by Sage Mode. If he couldnt teleport away from Juubidara, what do you think he will be able to do in a fight with 8th Gate Gai, who is *faster* than Juubidara? *Does OP states that Gai is marked here? No.* 

8th Gate Gai curbstomps him, effortlessly. 



> Fewwwwwww , again :
> Minato's perception speed>=Minato's Mental thinking speed>=FTG activation speed>>>>>>>>>>KCM Minato moves speed>>base Minato moves speed .
> Plus Minato can easily see through Red Gai moves and he is confident about teleporting two times between him and GudoDamas :
> Spoiler:
> ...



When you have a proof that Minato can react to 8th gate Gai, moving at his full speed, let me know. Because while preparing 5th Step, Gai clearly wasnt moving at his full speed, which i explained earlier.

Marked target has nothing to do with this one. Because in this thread, Gai isnt marked. The thing is - Minato has no feats to suggest that he can react to 8th Gate Gai and teleport away before he hits him. In fact, his showings against Juubito and Juubidara, where he was amped in everything, prove that 8th Gate Gai speedblitz him effortlessly.



> Again you didn't seem to make difference between the Jutsu's activation , moves and thinking speed .
> Tobirama didn't react to Obito JJ's speed , but to GudoDam's changing form speed , and it's pretty slow :
> In the same situation , KCM Naruto used two chakra arms and another one tow catch Minato who is about 10/15m further than him :
> Spoiler:
> ...



Juubito moved his hand in Tobirama's direction? Yes, he did. Juubito moved at him? Yes, he did. Plus, Tobirama most likely marked him with the hand which was destroyed by Juubito, which makes that feat even more impressive.



And Minato's own speed is a lot slower than Tobirama's, or KCM Naruto's. He doesnt have great movement speed feats. 



> What I said before :
> Tobirama's perception speed>=Tobirama's Mental thinking speed>=FTG activation speed>>>>>>>>>>KCM Minato moves speed>>base Minato moves speed>=Tobirama's moves speed >> Gudo Dama's changing form speed .
> Tobirama don't need to move a lot when Minato is already marked by him , same thing for SM Naruto vs Obito JJ , and that's why he was striked by rasengan .



Fanfic comparison? Alright. That's not effective anyway.

Tobirama didnt react to Gudoudama's "changing form" - he reacted to already exploding Gudoudama. And Gudoudama's themselves >>>> Minato's movement speed.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> Juubidara could blitz Minato because he is a lot faster than Minato's mere thought. Minato couldnt activate FTG to evade Juubidara's strikes. That means, he couldnt mentally react to him. And his reaction speed was amped by Sage Mode. If he couldnt teleport away from Juubidara, what do you think he will be able to do in a fight with 8th Gate Gai, who is faster than Juubidara? Does OP states that Gai is marked here? No.


Yes Juubidara could blitz Minato because he is a loooooot faster I agree , *but not only because of that , also because he isn"t marked by minato .* He tried to attack him using his arm moves , *go read the manga again * , and because Madara wasn't marked , Minato can't directly teleport on him , so he has seen his arm move and cut it using his much faster hand moves that's all . Go read my explicative post , especially Obito JJ feats when he was marked by Tobirama .



> 8th Gate Gai curbstomps him, effortlessly.
> 
> When you have a proof that Minato can react to 8th gate Gai, moving at his full speed, let me know. Because while preparing 5th Step, Gai clearly wasnt moving at his full speed, which i explained earlier.


Oh dude , Minato himself said that he can perceive 8 Gates Gay moves :




> Juubito moved his hand in Tobirama's direction? Yes, he did. Juubito moved at him? Yes, he did. Plus, Tobirama most likely marked him with the hand which was destroyed by Juubito, which makes that feat even more impressive.


First , Juubito moved his arm to Tobirama's corps , GudoDama's on his hands . Then he changed its form to a little black piercing sword , just like he did against KCM Naruto , Tobirama can't move to Juubio's moves but he can easily do it while Gudo Dama's are changing form like KCM Naruto did .



> And Minato's own speed is a lot slower than Tobirama's, or KCM Naruto's. He doesnt have great movement speed feats.


Euuuuuh , apparently you are a troll .
Base Minato' moves are faster than V2 Raikage himself faster than KCM Naruto (not talking about Shunshin) , go read the manga because I don't see any feats here .




> Tobirama didnt react to Gudoudama's "changing form" - he reacted to already exploding Gudoudama. And Gudoudama's themselves >>>> Minato's movement speed.


OOOOHH trolling again ,it seems that's all you can do :
Minato's perception speed>=Minato's FTG activation speed>>>GudoDama's moves speed>JJ moves speed>>>>>>>GudoDama's explosion speed .
Tobirama didn't move but used two consecutive FTG ,go read the manga please .

Plus manga feats all proves what I said without exception .


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 21, 2015)

> Yes Juubidara could blitz Minato because he is a loooooot faster I agree , but not only because of that , also because he isn"t marked by minato . He tried to attack him using his arm moves , go read the manga again , and because Madara wasn't marked , Minato can't directly teleport on him , so he has seen his arm move and cut it using his much faster hand moves that's all . Go read my explicative post , especially Obito JJ feats when he was marked by Tobirama .



Are you trolling or something?

Gai *is not marked* in this thread. OP has never stated that he is marked. Go read the first page of this thread. 

8th Gate Gai runs at Minato, reduces him to ash and that's it. Minato wont be able to teleport away from him, or mark him.



> Oh dude , Minato himself said that he can perceive 8 Gates Gay moves :



Just hit *HIM*, not the Gudoudama, but *HIM*. If he couldnt react to Juubidara with SM's amp, if he couldnt react to Juubito with KCM's amp, then, guess what, he gets speedblitzed against someone who is *a lot* faster than both Juubidara and Juubito.



> First , Juubito moved his arm to Tobirama's corps , GudoDama's on his hands . Then he changed its form to a little black piercing sword , just like he did against KCM Naruto , Tobirama can't move to Juubio's moves but he can easily do it while Gudo Dama's are changing form like KCM Naruto did .



1. To Edo Tobirama. It was like a taijutsu strike, but with Gudoudama, which Juubito could transform while Edo Hokage talked about how strong is Juubito, to the point when he is stronger than Hashirama. Seemingly, he did that before striking. 2. KCM Minato had an opportunity to mark him when he teared his hand off, yet he couldnt do that. And that's Minato, *amped by Kurama Chakra Mode*. 



> Euuuuuh , apparently you are a troll .
> Base Minato' moves are faster than V2 Raikage himself faster than KCM Naruto (not talking about Shunshin) , go read the manga because I don't see any feats here .



Nope. Young Killer Bee reacted to base Minato's strike and used Hachibi's tail to stop him from attacking Ei. Minato's own speed is slower than KCM Naruto, who has better striking speed feats and who's Shunshin is so fast that Killer Bee cant see anything but a yellow flash. 





> OOOOHH trolling again ,it seems that's all you can do :
> Minato's perception speed>=Minato's FTG activation speed>>>GudoDama's moves speed>JJ moves speed>>>>>>>GudoDama's explosion speed .
> Tobirama didn't move but used two consecutive FTG ,go read the manga please .
> 
> Plus manga feats all proves what I said without exception .



I dont know where did you get that "Gudoudama is faster than Juubi Jin's movements" thing. I'd like you to prove that.



> He used GudoDama's against Kakashi and Obito ,not his Shunshin , there isn't a more convincing arguments .



So what? Minato could react to Gudoudama's, but couldnt react to Juubidara's and Juubito's movements. Plus, it's kinda risky to go in a close distance to a Kamui user and a taijutsu master. Also, he could think that Gudoudamas can be enough to end them.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Now Iam done , either you are a stupic dumb , either you are doing it on purpose .

I have already exposed my opinion before :

*Spoiler*: __ 



-Minato (base or KCM doesn't change a thing) can dodge him until he dies using FTG if the Kunais are already prepared at any distance , otherwise it will be instant kille , his moves are pretty slow compared to Juubi Jinchurikis .




Minato has just to spamm FTG if the Kunais are already prepared otherwise he will die .



> Nope. Young Killer Bee reacted to base Minato's strike and used Hachibi's tail to stop him from attacking Ei. Minato's own speed is slower than KCM Naruto, who has better striking speed feats and who's Shunshin is so fast that Killer Bee cant see anything but a yellow flash.


He wasn't dodging anything , he anticipated where Minato was FTG and prepared the sword before he activate FTG . You put Moegi with the perception and thinking of Bee ,we will have the same result even if she is 10000 times slower than Minato .
Plus you are judgin without feat that KCM Naruto is faster while hype place Minato above V2 Raikage , it's a prove of your objectivity .


For the other quotes , please just read my explicative post , and I say read him well to understand the difference between FTG , moves , thinking speed .... I already exposed my arguements several times , and you don't seem to understand what I say .

You melt FTG speed wiht raw move speed and above of all thinking/perception speed , and there is a huge difference between all these .




*Spoiler*: __ 



It seems that a lot can't make a difference between :
-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .
-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .
-FTG defensive dodging with preparation


*I-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .:*

general rule : If the ennemy is marked ,Juubi Jinchuriki or not he will be striked .

Examples :

-Tobirama used FTG to telport the GudoDama before KCM Minato who is much faster can en his move , *and Obito JJ didn't have time to react to Tobirama :*

*Spoiler*: __ 








-Obito JJ can't dodge two consecutive FTG (normal FTG + Hiraishin mawashi) :

*Spoiler*: __ 









-Obito JJ can't react to SM Naruto :

*Spoiler*: __ 









*II-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .:*

general rule : If the ennemy has much better reflexes and very quick move he can dodge the FTG user .

Examples :

-SM Madara who is much slower than Obito JJ avoided Tobirama's HiraishinGiri :


-KCM Minato who is much faster than Tobirama lost his arm against Obito JJ :

*Spoiler*: __ 








-SM Minato who is much faster than Tobirama lost his second arm against Madara JJ :

*Spoiler*: __ 









*III--FTG defensive dodging with preparation :*

General rule : If FTG Kunais are laready prepared , the FTG can avoid any ennemie's attack at any distance , he has juts to think if he wants to escape.

-Base Minato can use two consecutive FTG in a very short distance between 8 gates Gai and Madara JJ's Gudo Damas (plus GudoDamas are faster than Madara JJ himself) :



*Conclusion :* depending on situation and FTG user toughts , he can be blited or not , but if he want just to escape he can easily do it .




And yeah :

When Kunais are prepared Base Minato can :
-FTG before , GudoDama , red Gai , Madara JJ , Obito JJ and whatever you want .

If the ennemy isn't marked , and if Minato try to attack :
-He will be easily striked by Madara JJ , red Gai , Obito JJ and every divin category .

If the ennemy is marked , even base Minato can :
-strike Obito JJ .

And all of these feats were seen in the manga .


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 21, 2015)

> Now Iam done , either you are a stupic dumb , either you are doing it on purpose .
> 
> I have already exposed my opinion before :
> Spoiler:
> ...



Minato had lots of marked places out there, in the battlefield and outside of the battlefield, in the sea. He could teleport away anytime, but he didnt. Maybe because he couldnt? Yes, he couldnt. It doesnt matter if there are marked kunais around or not - he wont be able to teleport away. Because he wont be able to react. He doesnt have feats good enough to say he will.



> He wasn't dodging anything , he anticipated where Minato was FTG and prepared the sword before he activate FTG . You put Moegi with the perception and thinking of Bee ,we will have the same result even if she is 10000 times slower than Minato .
> Plus you are judgin without feat that KCM Naruto is faster while hype place Minato above V2 Raikage , it's a prove of your objectivity .



I am talking about Hachibi's tentacle, which was faster than Minato's strike, not that "sword situation".

Hype doesnt place Minato's *own movement speed* above that of V2 Ei. As for the feats - i want you to provide Minato's striking speed feats. Bee could react to him and use Hachibi's tail to prevent him from hitting Ei. And KCM Naruto's clone could hit Third Raikage, for example. Akthough in 3'd try.



> For the other quotes , please just read my explicative post , and I say read him well to understand the difference between FTG , moves , thinking speed .... I already exposed my arguements several times , and you don't seem to understand what I say .



All of that has almost nothing to do with this. Gai isnt marked in this thread. The rest doesnt matter. If amped Minato couldnt teleport away from someone who is slower than Juubidara and lost his arm, if amped Minato couldnt teleport away from someone who is much slower than 8th Gate Gai to the point he cant physically react to his movement speed, imagine what happens to Minato if he fights 8th Gate Gai - a bloody speedblitz. Minato (KCM, SM or whatever - doesnt matter) has never, ever, demonstrated reaction speed good enough to say he will be able to teleport out of 8th Gate Gai's way. 

And that feat of Minato "reacting to full 8th Gate Gai's speed" was countered multiple times, because at that moment, Gai slowed down a lot, to the point when Gaara's sand moved faster than him and Kakashi could react in time and use long-ranged Kamui to make a hole in Gudoudama.

Minato gets blitzed.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> Minato had lots of marked places out there, in the battlefield and outside of the battlefield, in the sea. He could teleport away anytime, but he didnt. Maybe because he couldnt? Yes, he couldnt. It doesnt matter if there are marked kunais around or not - he wont be able to teleport away. Because he wont be able to react. He doesnt have feats good enough to say he will.


blablablablablablablabla , you are just talking , not even arguing . *All the feats you are talking about are "FTG attacks when the ennemy isn't marked" * and *Iam talking about "escaping attacks using FTG"*, ]PLEASE GO READ WHAT I POSTED BEFORE THEN WE CAN TALK .


*Spoiler*: __ 



It seems that a lot can't make a difference between :
-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .
-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .
-FTG defensive dodging with preparation


*I-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .:*

general rule : If the ennemy is marked ,Juubi Jinchuriki or not he will be striked .

Examples :

-Tobirama used FTG to telport the GudoDama before KCM Minato who is much faster can en his move , *and Obito JJ didn't have time to react to Tobirama :*

*Spoiler*: __ 








-Obito JJ can't dodge two consecutive FTG (normal FTG + Hiraishin mawashi) :

*Spoiler*: __ 









-Obito JJ can't react to SM Naruto :

*Spoiler*: __ 









*II-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .:*

general rule : If the ennemy has much better reflexes and very quick move he can dodge the FTG user .

Examples :

-SM Madara who is much slower than Obito JJ avoided Tobirama's HiraishinGiri :


-KCM Minato who is much faster than Tobirama lost his arm against Obito JJ :

*Spoiler*: __ 








-SM Minato who is much faster than Tobirama lost his second arm against Madara JJ :

*Spoiler*: __ 









*III--FTG defensive dodging with preparation :*

General rule : If FTG Kunais are laready prepared , the FTG can avoid any ennemie's attack at any distance , he has juts to think if he wants to escape.

-Base Minato can use two consecutive FTG in a very short distance between 8 gates Gai and Madara JJ's Gudo Damas (plus GudoDamas are faster than Madara JJ himself) :



*Conclusion :* depending on situation and FTG user toughts , he can be blited or not , but if he want just to escape he can easily do it .







> I am talking about Hachibi's tentacle, which was faster than Minato's strike, not that "sword situation".


No it wasn't faster , before Minato striked :
1-He launched many Kunais
3-He through out a Kunai .
3-FTG 2 times .
4-Striked .

Killer Bee anticipated how Minato will strike so he prepared his tentacle before Ae beggin his move, plus his tantacle will never be faster than V2 Raikage Shunshin dude . 


Plus you are not making any difference between :
-FTG activation speed
-Moves speed .
-FTG attack when the ennemy is marked .
-FTG to avoid when Kunais are prepared .
-FTG to avoid when Kunai's aren't prepared .
-FTG attack when the ennemy isn't marked 0
-GudoDama's moving speed .
-GudoDama's changing form speed .
-GudoDama's exploding speed .
-Juubi Jinchuriki moving speed .

You are always melting all this stuff , and this way there is no discussion because you are not understanding anything . dude


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

StarWanderer hates the living shit out of Minato. You're not going anywhere with him.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 21, 2015)

> blablablablablablablabla , you are just talking , not even arguing . All the feats you are talking about are "FTG attacks when the ennemy isn't marked" and Iam talking about "escaping attacks using FTG", ]PLEASE GO READ WHAT I POSTED BEFORE THEN WE CAN TALK .



Minato had to use FTG to escape and he needs only mental thought to do so. 

But ok, you want me to completely refute all that nonsense in this thread? Alright.



> It seems that a lot can't make a difference between :
> -FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .
> -FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .
> -FTG defensive dodging with preparation



Nope. In all those cases, he has to mentally react to use FTG. Of course, it is a lot easier to hit a target when it is marked. But between "FTG attacks when enemy isnt marked" and "FTG defencive dodging with preparation" is one common thing - in both cases, Minato has to react in time to dodge enemies attack. Juubito was in KCM Minato's line of site. Furthermore, Minato was a sensor. Yet, he couldnt mentally react to Juubito's movement. It wont make any difference, because the only thing FTG requires is a mental thought. Even if he wanted to defend himself, he wouldnt be able to teleport away. The same thing with Juubidara - SM Minato was a sensor and Juubidara was in his LoS. Yet he couldnt mentally react to Juubidara. Even if he wanted to defend himself against both of them in such a distance, he wouldnt be able to dodge their attacks, because he cant use FTG fast enough to dodge them.



> I-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .:
> 
> general rule : If the ennemy is marked ,Juubi Jinchuriki or not he will be striked .
> 
> ...



That doesnt matter, because:

1) In this thread, Gai isnt marked.
2) Minato isnt fast enough to mark him.



> II-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .:
> 
> general rule : If the ennemy has much better reflexes and very quick move he can dodge the FTG user .
> 
> ...



SM Minato is not faster than Tobirama. You havent provided any evidence of that. The same thing is with KCM Minato. In fact, Tobirama demonstrated faster movement speed and reaction speed.



> III--FTG defensive dodging with preparation :
> 
> General rule : If FTG Kunais are laready prepared , the FTG can avoid any ennemie's attack at any distance , he has juts to think if he wants to escape.
> 
> ...



I will repeat myself once more - 8th Gate Gai slowed down there. It is not a great feat, when Gaara's sand moved faster than 8th Gate Gai and Kakashi could react to that situation and make a hole in Juubidara's Gudoudama via long-ranged Kamui. 

And Gudoudamas are not faster than Juubidara. That is your fanfic which has been refuted already.



> No it wasn't faster , before Minato striked :
> 1-He launched many Kunais
> 3-He through out a Kunai .
> 3-FTG 2 times .
> ...



Realy? I saw his tentacle moving only when Minato attempted to strike him. There was no tentacle near Minato and Ei when Ei attacked him and when Minato attempted to strike him down.

Not to mention it was a young Ei. And young Obito not only reacted to Minato's striking speed, but almost killed him and demonstrated comparable striking speed by himself.

Minato doesnt have great striking speed feats. He doesnt have feats in that department good enough to say that his striking speed is faster than KCM Naruto's striking speed.



> Plus you are not making any difference between :
> -FTG activation speed
> -Moves speed .
> -FTG attack when the ennemy is marked .
> ...



You are using fanfic in this debate, dude. That wont get you far.
He needs to mentally activate FTG to evade an attack. If he couldnt do that against characters which are much slower than 8th Gate Gai, then he has nothing to do with 8th Gate Gai, who speedblitz him without any effort whatsoever.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> You are using fanfic in this debate, dude. That wont get you far.


If you have reely read my posts , you will see that I illustrate all this stuff with a manga's feat , but when you never read my posts .



> Realy? I saw his tentacle moving only when Minato attempted to strike him. There was no tentacle near Minato and Ei when Ei attacked him and when Minato attempted to strike him down.


The tantacle didn't began moving when Minato start his strike , go read the manga .


QUOTE]1) In this thread, Gai isnt marked.
2) Minato isnt fast enough to mark him.
[/QUOTE]
Unlike Madara JJ , Minato doesn't have to attack him , and then he don't have to mark him , he just have to FTG to the Kunais , and it's a lot of easier than attaciking an ennemy already marked dude , you are really idiot man .


You are just a freaking troll and you are not objective .

Tobirama  hasn't better reflexes than base Minato , and saying that he is faster than KCM Minato and SM Minato while KCM Naruto is his limit is just trolling , and Iam not speaking with you anymore . 


-SM Naruto striked Obito JJ .
-KCM Minato got blitzed by the same Obito JJ .

So for you SM Naruto is faster than KCM Minato , if you say naruto is faster , then you are the King of troll , no one can never surpass you at trolling . You don't think with logic you are only thinking with your preferences . I already explained with logical terms , and you didn"t , don't and will never understand , maybe because you idiot in nature , or maybe you are doing it on purpose .

As *Hussain *explained , Iam not responding to you anymore because you luck objectivity , trolling and you don't want to understand what I posted . It's a wast of time .


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Don't dream I will respond you , you are just turning arround with your absurd words . I already explained my opinion with very logical manga's feats and you are responding me with shit .


----------



## S (Sep 21, 2015)

Is it just me or is hbcaptain, Hussain in disguise? back to topic, only Kaguya, Madara (at most powerful) Naruto, Sasuke and Kakashi can react to red Gai, everyone else gets blitzed.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

S said:


> Is it just me or is hbcaptain, Hussain in disguise? back to topic, only Kaguya, Madara (at most powerful) Naruto, Sasuke and Kakashi can react to red Gai, everyone else gets blitzed.



No, because I never saw Hussain doing argument like that.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

What...


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 21, 2015)

The good thing about all this is that Gai's the one wanked. Minato's just a victim of excuses .

Never thought the thread would last 4 pages. I guess the new generation surpassing the old is true considering 6th gated Lee "shunshin'd" to Gai's position and threw a Kunai before he advanced a step.

I can't imagine what a 8th gated Lee would do .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> The good thing about all this is that Gai's the one wanked. Minato's just a victim of excuses .
> 
> Never thought the thread would last 4 pages. I guess the new generation surpassing the old is true considering 6th gated Lee "shunshin'd" to Gai's position and threw a Kunai before he advanced a step.
> 
> I can't imagine what a 8th gated Lee would do .



8th Gate Lee crash time. That's the next logical step.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> The good thing about all this is that Gai's the one wanked. Minato's just a victim of excuses .
> 
> Never thought the thread would last 4 pages. I guess the new generation surpassing the old is true considering 6th gated Lee "shunshin'd" to Gai's position and threw a Kunai before he advanced a step.
> 
> I can't imagine what a 8th gated Lee would do .



Poor Minato, no matter what he does or does not, always pathetic excuses against him.  

oh well, I guess having haters is the sign for being successful, huh?


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

The funniest thing , is that all the people who say that Minato or Obito will get blitzed don't argue , they only follow their feeling  .


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> The funniest thing , is that all the people who say that Minato or Obito will get blitzed don't argue , they only follow their feeling  .



the biggest problem is actually was showing in the manga. No need to take them seriously, really.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

Hussain plz don't talk to your dupe.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Latest news : War Arc Sakura can Shunshin at rikudo speed , if you want to knwo why ask *Hachibi *.  . That's also prove his kind of thinking .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

Hussain plz you know you love me 

It wasn't a shunshin anyways


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> No, because I never saw Hussain doing argument like that.





Hachibi said:


> Hussain plz don't talk to your dupe.



I see a case of schizophrenia...


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I see a case of schizophrenia...



>Love Minato
>Use  emoticon
>Username both begin with a h

Come on, it's obvious you're both related. 

Plus it's actually possible that you have a second, more extreme personality


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 21, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> 8th Gate Lee crash time. That's the next logical step.



Yes. He is FTL in the 6th, Time crasher in the 8th. Only because Minato should make a feat legit.



Hussain said:


> Poor Minato, no matter what he does or does not, always pathetic excuses against him.
> 
> oh well, I guess having haters is the sign for being successful, huh?




You of all people know that i don't waste time hating on a fictional character and, if i get to do it, the only one would be Sasuke.

However, i cannot support that we say bullshit like Gaara lifting his sand and Lee shunshinning to Gai's position before Gai made a step only for the poor victim Minato be fast. Are you seeing him defeating Red Gai here? I have hope on you, Hussain. Don't fall there .

However, if people want to accept it, fine. But accepting that AND discarding Lee's and Gaara's is what i'm fighting with. That's hipocrisy.

SW made a good point. Why Minato didn't use Hiraishin back to his Kunai to avoid being killed by Juudara? If he can avoid Gai with Hiraishin, why can't he avoid Juudara?

But let's overlook that part. It never happened .


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

Well by feats Sakura is faster than hirashin 
She did after all avoid kaguya chakra arms even if for a second


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Love Minato
> >Use  emoticon
> >Username both begin with a h
> 
> ...



you think I'll waste my time with star like that? Even the thought of it is scary. 



LostSelf said:


> You of all people know that i don't waste time hating on a fictional character and, if i get to do it, the only one would be Sasuke.
> 
> However, i cannot support that we say bullshit like Gaara lifting his sand and Lee shunshinning to Gai's position before Gai made a step only for the poor victim Minato be fast. Are you seeing him defeating Red Gai here? I have hope on you, Hussain. Don't fall there .
> 
> ...



- I did not mean you tho. 

- BS like Obito coming of the death happened, but using a S/T jutsu to outpace Gai sounds more extreme to you? 

- Minato was not "killed" by madara tho. 



> If he can avoid Gai with Hiraishin, why can't he avoid Juudara?


Plot. 

Naruto able to avoid A, why did he not avoid the Jinshuuriki's attacks?

Naruto was able to cut Kaguya's arm off, why did he not do that to Sasuke?

Kaguya's body trashed Sasuke's PS, but got effected by Sakura.

and so on and so forth.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 21, 2015)

Exactly! Then. why we negate Sakura's feat, Lee's feat, Sasuke's feat, Gaara's feat. But not Minato?

Or we take them all, or we don't take them all.

I can say the same to that argument of yours. Sakura dodged Kaguya? Well, by feats, Minato used Hiraishin twice before Gai advanced an inch.

Hussain: Oh, but Minato, Gaara and Lee doing that to Gai wasn't plot? .


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Well wait , Sakura can see Kaguya's moves , why Minato can't see red Gay's moves .


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 21, 2015)

Now we're advancing. Even though i don't know who's gay.

You tell me, wich one was plot. Juudara kicking Minato twice without him reacting, or Minato reacting to Gai?


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

Juudara kicking minato twice logically 
Seeing that Sakura who couldn't avoid kabuto flying butt can suddenly avoid kaguya chakra arms that RSm naruto said was too fast


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Exactly! Then. why we negate Sakura's feat, Lee's feat, Sasuke's feat, Gaara's feat. But not Minato?
> 
> Or we take them all, or we don't take them all.
> 
> ...



Minato's FTG is instant speed. The guy went from there to konoha in no time. It's obviously faster
than Gai's.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 21, 2015)

Are you sure? Because Minato couldn't react or keep up with Juubito's movement speed. And Juubito's slower than Juudara.

So, that and Juudara taking him down are plot, but him reacting twice to Gai isn't?

Because i find more ilogical that Lee, Gaara and him accomplished such a feat than Juubito and Juudara taking him down.

Using Sakura as an example to make Minato's feat not plot is of no help, because, as you said, Sakura was a slouch that was even going to be killed by a Juubiling. 

And in other cases, Juubito and Juudara's feat against Minato are more logical than Lee shunshining to Gai's position, Minato using Hiraishin twice and Sakura doing that to Kaguya.

Hussain: There's no doubt that instant teleportation is faster. But give Konohamaru Hiraishin against Goku, and let's see if he dodges him.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

> Are you sure? Because Minato couldn't react or keep up with Juubito's movement speed. And Juubito's slower than Juudara.



Obito only attacked Minato once. Even then, there was a sudden transformation from ballon/retard obito to a one
who is in control of his power. Even the Databook made it clear that Minato was in a stupor state because it's his student. 
13



> So, that and Juudara taking him down are plot, but him reacting twice to Gai isn't?


Everything is driven by plot in the manga. You comparing 2 different things and mixing things up
1- FTG speed.
2- Minato's movement speed. 

those are NOT the same thing. At the end of the day, Madara DID trash Gai's FASTEST punch in the 7th Gate.
It's just Kishi did not allow madara to physically hit Gai, like with Minato. Otherwise, both of their attacks were effortlessly stopped. 



> Because i find more ilogical that Lee, Gaara and him accomplished such a feat than Juubito and Juudara taking him down.



Lee was using the 6th Gate. It does not matter if you find it logical or not honestly. It would have been the case
if Kishi made Lee in base, but Kishi believed that letting Lee go to the 6th Gate to do so is logical in his eyes. Otherwise, why would he have Lee using the 6th Gate? He did not even use any moves in that gate, so the only purpose for letting him use the 6th Gate is precisely for that specific thing.  



> Hussain: There's no doubt that instant teleportation is faster. But give Konohamaru Hiraishin against Goku, and let's see if he dodges him.



Goku has his own teleportation.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

@*Hussain*

Don't wast your time , I have already tryed for several pages, but they will never make difference between move speed and FTG speed .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Jubito severed *KCM* Minato's arm, then placed a bomb on him without him noticing.

Jubito reacted to FTG *BM* Minato's blindside Building Rasengan with chakra arms & Goudama wall. 

Judara severed *SM* Minato's arm, kicked his arm, then roundhouse kicked him without him using FTG at any point in reaction. 

Red Gate Gai blitzed Judara multiple times while sky swimming.

Red Gate Gai Sky swimming >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any version of Minato 

Red Gate Gai on Ground >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any version of Minato

And that also relates to overall power, not just speed. Red Gate Gai would kill the fuck out of any version of Minato.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

-Juubito got striked by SM Naruto FTG .
-Juubito got striked by Tobirama's clone .
-Juubito striked by Tobirama .

So : SM Naruto , Tobirama , Tobirama's clone >>>>> KCM Minato in speed . Like I said anti-Mianto team members will never make difference between moves speed and FTG speed .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

-SM Naruto & Tobirama = not Minato
-Tobirama never striked Jubito 
-Tobirama touching Jubito's back when EMS Sasuke, BM Naruto, KCM Minato distract = not just Tobirama's feat

Q1: Did Minato ever touch a Juubi Jin?

A1: Nope.

Q2: Did Gai ever touch a Juubi Jin?

A2: Yup, multiple times, and not just in the 8th Gate.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Well so you are saying that :
Tobirama>>>>>KCM Minato
Tobirama's clone>>>KCM Minato
SM Naruto>>>>KCM Minato

It seems you are trolling , the difference is that Tobirama has already marked Juubito , so he can easiy strike him while Minato can't . Go read the manga dude before saying nonsens .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Yup, Tobirama's clone clearly outperformed KCM Minato. 

Tobirama & SM Naruto blindsiding Jubito worked.

Jubito immediately notices Tobirama
"He was distracted"

In that instance Tobirama did not blitz him, he blindsided him while he was distracted. 

>BM Minato had Jubito marked, failed to touch him when porting behind him with FTG and a Building Sized Rasengan

If you can provide one feature for Minato pressuring a Juubi Jinchuriki, we can begin to debate whether or not he's close (not superior) to Red Gai's speed.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> Yup, Tobirama's clone clearly outperformed KCM Minato.


Troll located , bip bip bip bip bip bip


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

Dat name calling tho.

I mean, you can't really deny that Tobirama outshined Minato during the Juubito fight.

IIRC even Hussain had to admit it (somewhat, he's still Hussain).


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yup, Tobirama's clone clearly outperformed KCM Minato.
> 
> Tobirama & SM Naruto blindsiding Jubito worked.
> 
> ...



Just to correct you on one thing, Minato never marked Juubito. It was Tobirama that teleported both him and BSM Naruto.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

Tobirama had a mark on juubito 
Minato didn't 

Sm naruto also outperformed KCM minato doesn't make Sm naruto faster now does it


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Okay, let's post the scans. 

KCM Minato pre-placed FTG kunai around Obito [1]

Comes at him

Loses arm before FTG reaction, bomb placed on without him noticing

Tobirama's clone gets to it first

Warps it back to Jubito before it explodes, with KCM Minato still in same position

Jubito reacts before it explodes by blocking it with Goudama wall

Jubito, and Tobirama's Clone > KCM Minato in that exchange


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Kishimato has to put forward Tobirama , so he replaced Minato's mark with his mark because KCM Minato is by far stronger than him .

Minato was only Shunshinning to Juubito while Tobirama FTG himself to him that's all . The mark change all the things . Juubito can't react to FTG when he is marked .


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Okay, let's post the scans.
> 
> KCM Minato pre-placed FTG kunai around Obito [1]
> 
> ...



Unless u intentionally slow it's not the same as having a mark on someone already 

Unless u believe SM Madara is a lot faster than juubito who has the bloody 10 tails in him and had both eyes and is essentially a sage

Cuz tobirama not a clone couldn't touch him without a mark 

Yet tobirama clone is touching juubito


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Dat name calling tho.
> 
> I mean, you can't really deny that Tobirama outshined Minato during the Juubito fight.
> 
> IIRC even Hussain had to admit it (somewhat, he's still Hussain).



I admitted that Tobirama outshine Minato? 

I would never say such BS. 

Minato the one doing the heavy work. He was the one saving Naruto and Sasuke.
The one teleporting and saving the Shinobi world. The one restoring Naruto's chakra

the one using the chakra arms to pull the Bijuus out. The one using the combos with the rest of them
...etc etc 

Tobirama getting destroyed against weaker obito, is nothing compared to Minato losing an arm against Obito with full power.

That's as dumb as comparing KCM Naruto to BM Naruto. 

Even Tobirama himself does not believe in such nonsense. 
he himself stated that he was outclassed by Minato.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Kishimato has to put forward Tobirama , so he replaced Minato's mark with his mark because KCM Minato is by far stronger than him .
> 
> Minato was only Shunshinning to Juubito while Tobirama FTG himself to him that's all . The mark change all the things . Juubito can't react to FTG when he is marked .


Not a valid explanation. You have no idea what Kishimoto's intentions were in drawing that sequence. 

Are you Kishimoto?

>Tobirama didn't have Minato tagged, his clone probably jumped at Naruto who was behind him, then shunshin'd to grab it before Minato could grab it. 



Icegaze said:


> Unless u intentionally slow it's not the same as having a mark on someone already
> 
> Unless u believe SM Madara is a lot faster than juubito who has the bloody 10 tails in him and had both eyes and is essentially a sage
> 
> ...


Don't bring other feats into it, the scans show Minato's arm movement was the same speed/slower than Tobirama's clone FTGing to him and moving to grab it, and EMS Sasuke putting up a Susano hand around him & Naruto.

Bottom line being he couldn't grab a ball 1 foot from his other arm before Tobirama's clone could Hirashin, grab it, and Hirashin out.

>Loses an arm to Jubito prior to that, said bomb placed on him without him noticing 
>Minato has Kurama Chakra Mode enhancing perception, reflexes & limb speed 
>Base Minato would have been slashed in half by Jubito or blown up by the Goudama directly after


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I admitted that Tobirama outshine Minato?
> 
> I would never say such BS.



That's why I said somewhat 



> Minato the one doing the heavy work. He was the one saving Naruto and Sasuke.
> The one teleporting and saving the Shinobi world. The one restoring Naruto's chakra
> 
> the one using the chakra arms to pull the Bijuus out. The one using the combos with the rest of them
> ...



Good thing I was only talking about the Juubito fight.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Not a valid explanation. You have no idea what Kishimoto's intentions were in drawing that sequence.
> 
> Are you Kishimoto?
> 
> ...



Lol so u deny the other feats happening then 
For ur silly point to make sense 

Sm Madara would have to be a lot faster fhan juubito 

Sadly he isn't 

So hush puppy . U not making much sense 
As to not bringing other feats into it 

Why do u always mention minato other feats when anyone presents scans of him out pacing 8th gate gai 

Hypocrite much

 of course if u hirashin to something and out u would be faster than someone moving to that object 

I would remind u about the 8th gate gai and minato scenario 

Using 2 hirashin with no movement would easily be faster than someone moving 

When hirashin is already by feats as fast as double kamui . So Yh 

Hardly impressive to hit an already tagged enemy . It's expected 

Though want to clarify Sm naruto hit juubito but BSM naruto didn't  using the Same hirashin mark . Is Sm naruto faster all of a sudden ?


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Good thing I was only talking about the Juubito fight.





Man, the only one who believed in such nonsense are either Tobirama fanboys or Minato's haters. 

Otherwise, it is stated and showing that Minato is simply superior. Even the combo they did to get obito. It was Minato's superior ability


> Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi "Fourth Hokage taking this technique and pushing it even higher




What did Tobirama do even close to what Minato did? 

as I said, even Tobirama himself does not believe the nonsense his fans say. lol


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Tobirama himself admited that base Minato has a very quick moves :


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol so u deny the other feats happening then
> For ur silly point to make sense
> 
> Sm Madara would have to be a lot faster fhan juubito
> ...


Hypocrite?

Sure, let's take Minato's 1 feat of warping away Truthseekers, and his other 4 feats of being substantially inferior to Juubi Jins in close quarters by losing both his arms, being roundhouse kicked, having bombs placed on him without notice, and being reacted to with the aid of blindside FTG while he was in enhanced forms (KCM, SM, BM).

Then, we'll apply that truthseeker feat of arriving at them via Lee's reaction and kunai throw, while Red Gai kicks _once_ to propel himself for a final attack with his bare fist that he eventually lands on a Juubi Jinchuriki's back without reaction as a means to suggest he's anywhere close to Red Gai's ground speed or multiple-air kick speed.

>Tobirama outperforms KCM Minato (gets to Goudama first)
>Jubito outperforms KCM Minato three times (Slashes arm off, bomb placed without notice, reacts to bomb's explosion successfully), outperforms BM Minato once (reacts to FTG BM Minato blindside)
>Judara outperforms FTG SM Minato three times (Slashes arm off, kicks arm, roundhouse kicks body)
>Base Minato reacts to Lee's kunai throw by using Hirashin twice before Maito's Gai's one air kick propels him to Judara

VS.

>7th Gate Gai touches Judara multiple times before attempting Afternoon Tiger, injuries himself 
>8th Gate Gai flanks Judara successfully multiple times and throws Evening Elephant punches that hit him before he reacts 
>8th Gate Gai punches Judara directly in the back without a reaction while he's looking at him, sending him across landscape 
>8th Gate Gai blitzes Judara in plain view with linear Yagai hitting him directly in his lower torso


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol so u deny the other feats happening then
> For ur silly point to make sense
> 
> Sm Madara would have to be a lot faster fhan juubito
> ...



Hypocrisy is always the way. Otherwise, Tobirama's clone is actually better than the original. 

here is the clone
Warps it back to Jubito before it explodes, with KCM Minato still in same position

and next page the original
Warps it back to Jubito before it explodes, with KCM Minato still in same position

Tobirama's clone > Original conformed.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Tobirama can never ever react to 8 Gates Gai . dude , base Minato has better fact than him .


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 21, 2015)

> At the end of the day, Madara DID trash Gai's FASTEST punch in the 7th Gate



How many times this refuted arguement will be brought in the Battledome?

Madara has never trashed Gai's fastest punch in 7th Gate. That Hirudora sign which Gai successfully made *was the his fastest punch*, which concentrates the air pressure. As soon as it is concentrated in a single point towards the opponent, it defuses in a form of Tiger's head. Juubidara could counter-attack the result of that fastest punch, although it hit him, because Juubidara was flying away and because he havent cut Gai down when he stood there, doing nothing.





> Tobirama getting destroyed against weaker obito, is nothing compared to Minato losing an arm against Obito with full power.



That's your assumption. The only differences were the ability to cancel even Edo Tensei with those Gudoudama's and Juubi's control over Obito's body. In terms of speed, strength, durability etc. it was the same Juubito.



> he himself stated that he was outclassed by Minato.



Only in terms of Shunshin and Hiraishin. 



> Well wait , Sakura can see Kaguya's moves , why Minato can't see red Gay's moves .



Because her speed level has been shown when she was trashed by Juubidara.

Naruto could say such a thing so Sasuke wont underestimate those arms and wont attempt to attack them. 

Or, Sakura was indeed that fast. Faster than Minato.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So it's fine to bring other feats into it when it's minato then ?
> 
> Ok let's think about it lets forget minato and gai
> 
> ...



Kishi was telling us that Naruto's clone is actually faster than the original and Sasuke
Warps it back to Jubito before it explodes, with KCM Minato still in same position



Did I mention that Kishi CLEARLY wanted us to believe that 4tails V2 Naruto
Warps it back to Jubito before it explodes, with KCM Minato still in same position
Warps it back to Jubito before it explodes, with KCM Minato still in same position

Is OBVIOUSLY stronger than Naruto with full Kurama and Hago's power
Link removed
Link removed

I wonder when people would think to stop using those dumbass examples.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Man, the only one who believed in such nonsense are either Tobirama fanboys or Minato's haters.
> 
> Otherwise, it is stated and showing that Minato is simply superior. Even the combo they did to get obito. It was Minato's superior ability
> 
> ...



Good job Hussain, you missed the point of my post entirely


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

What I need to know is why gai feat against juudara is considered the norm when 

1) he was in 7th gate against ET Madara and somehow ET Madara wasn't instantly sealed 
2) he pain cold admits he needs 8th gate to slap 5 BD . When BM naruto casually slaps them away 

So why are those 2 things not considered the norm . When we have 2 things clearly indicating his performance against juudara was a slip up 

Yet nope minato' feat must be an outliner cuz gai was outpaced when common sense would dictate that moving via ST would be a lot quicker than anything else 

Unless someone believe gai would win a race against minato if he has marked the finish line already 

needless to say the instant Kishi drew a fly like SM naruto hitting juubito the point was made clear 

For some reason marking a person seems to guarantee a strike while Kunai close by doesn't 

As for avoiding juubito point blank well he didn't but then it would be the same as calling Kakashi kamui slow when it's speed needed to be doubled to avoid goudama 70m away 

Yet Kakashi kamui ripped GM hand before it could be summoned 

I think fandom decides the outliners and what's the norm . Nothing else really


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

@davizwiz
TOBIRAMA CLONE has better feats than the original 

So go on explain how it's not faster . U want to use character statements maybe ?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Depends on the distance, of course anything in-close Gai would kill Base Minato before he managed to even activate FTG, as inferior Jubito had no issue taking Kurama Chakra Mode enhanced Minato's arm off and placing a bomb on it. This holds true for any version of Minato actually based on feats. 

Jubito only came at Tobirama once, and he managed to tag him with his hand and several explosive tags before he ripped through him, this prior to Tobirama knowing his speed. This is a flat out indication that if he had a marked kunai he could have avoided him by throwing that instead of tagging Jubito and throwing explosive tags on him.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Depends on the distance, of course anything in-close Gai would kill Base Minato before he managed to even activate FTG, as inferior Jubito had no issue taking Kurama Chakra Mode enhanced Minato's arm off and placing a bomb on it.



Lol
U didn't answer 
Is tobirama clone faster than the original cuz by feats it is 

So why then use tobirama statement to invalidate the feat 

Yet forget the same guy says minato has better shunshin and better usage of hirashin and better hirashin feats and reactions 


Or is the 8th gate thing not a minato feat ? Just curious . Really am

And yes naturally it's a lee and gaara feat 

Though again if u read the scan gaara said his sand wasn't fast enough and minato as a reply gave Kakashi his Kunai . Perhaps he wrapped him who knows 

Makes no sense really . But as much sense as gai who can't slap and attack for shit weak bijuu yet can face juudara


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

By feats it is not. 

Bro, he tagged Jubito multiple times without him or KCM Minato noticing- while he was shunshining at him- without knowledge on his speed.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> By feats it is not.
> 
> Bro, he tagged Jubito multiple times without him noticing.



 u still believe that 

He tagged him once 

Go on and prove those tags aren't a result of the ET body being run through . And not tobirama being able to place 5 separate tags on juubito and a hirashin mark 

I'll wait 

Cuz it's from that same body tobirama then ripped out more tags for GFK

Aww aren't u cute . I like this


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

No, he tagged him once, then he reached into his pocket, grabbed explosive tags and then threw multiple explosive tags over different parts of his body- all while reacting to a speed he's never seen Jubito use.

You know what he could have done instead?

Him reaching into his pocket and pulling out a tagged kunai, throwing it away from Jubito and teleporting to it, avoiding him.

You know why he didn't?

Because he was going to blow himself up anyway, which he did.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

Lol scans of the pocket reaching pls


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Oh, I guess he created tags out of thin air?

Which means he still was fast enough to make those tags lmao


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Euuuuh , no Tobirama could place tags only because GudoDamas changing form into a piercing weapon is slow . In the same situation , KCM Naruto has time to use two chakra arms one to catch Sasuke and the other to cach Minato who was 10/15m further , and that's even more impressive that what we have seen from Tobirama :

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Not at all, Jubito can spread the Goudama out completely before Amaterasu hits [1] and before CSPS & BSM can strike [2] / Ranged attacks hit  / before they can react from extended range [4]

What more can I say? Tobirama's reflexes and limb speed is simply spectacular.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Euuuh , no Obito just rotate the GudoDama already changed into Rikudou stick :

The anime illustrate that well .
Plus kCM Naruto chakra arms may be faster than Amaterasu's move .

Against BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke , he has already changed form before they clashed . Plus in your 4th example , Juubito was changing form gradually , first one black wall to hold their attacks , then two walls , then , giant clack arms .

Plus it doesn't change the fact that KCM Naruto was able to catch his father 10/15m further , a more impressive feat than Tobirama .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Psht, dude couldn't even react with FTG when he had kunai spread in the same panel you posted, he's reacting to Jubito with chakra arms now?

Bottom line is the Goudama spreading is fast, and the transformation doesn't prove that his speed increased by much if at all. 

Just because he gained full control doesn't mean that his speed was that much slower before he did, what it does prove is he was more focused. No one said he got faster.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

I don't understand what you mean by that be more clear .


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Oh, I guess he created tags out of thin air?
> 
> Which means he still was fast enough to make those tags lmao



 

Or they were already in the ET body like I said 

As obviously that's where the same bloody tags from GFK came from


Lol KCM naruto use chakra arms to touching minato who then use hirashin when juubito was already striking 


Yh minato got no reactions feats 

Still waiting for how on earth running through tobirama didn't spread those tags . comical to believe tobirama is that fast yet can't hit Sm Madara a weaker enemy than juubito


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Which means he picked them out of his ET body instead of his pocket, which changes nothing. 

>Still reacted
>Still tagged him multiple times without Jubito or KCM Minato noticing


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

*Still tagged him multiple times* is by much less impressive than *moving a chakra arm for 10/15m further .* .

So in term of reflexes Tobirama<KCM Naruto<V2 Raikage<base Minato


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Which means he picked them out of his ET body instead of his pocket, which changes nothing.
> 
> >Still reacted
> >Still tagged him multiple times without Jubito or KCM Minato noticing



Lol
 ok 

I get u . SM Madara is much much faster than juubito . 

No issues there perfectly logical. That someone without 10 tails who could barely fight hashirama on equal footing gets a boost he calls minor would surpass the 10 tails Jin


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> KCM Minato noticing


No he noticed go read the manga .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol
> ok
> 
> I get u . SM Madara is much much faster than juubito .
> ...


>Let's take lower end feats of Tobirama
>And let's deny higher end feats of Tobirama

Because my name is Icegaze and I love to deny Tobirama's best work, and deny Minato's worst work. 


hbcaptain said:


> No he noticed go read the manga .


No he did not [1]

Do you see Minato's face?

This is the next panel [2]

He did not notice, nor did KCM Naruto.

Panels later he tells them he managed to tag FTG him there, KCM Naruto also didn't know that, and Minato looked like he didn't either.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> Do you see Minato's face?


He said that he is fast , just like Tobirama said that Minato is quick while moving , their isn't any sweet or something like that .



> He did not notice, nor did KCM Naruto.


Trollololololololololol , you are the king of trollers , so SM Madara si by far faster than Jubito , and now KCM Minato can't even notice KCM Naruto's moves , you are just a freaking troller . Plus you didn't show us feats .


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Go take a look on Base Minato vs Tobirama right now :


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> He said that he is fast , just like Tobirama said that Minato is quick while moving , their isn't any sweet or something like that .
> 
> 
> Trollololololololololol , you are the king of trollers , so SM Madara si by far faster than Jubito , and now KCM Minato can't even notice KCM Naruto's moves , you are just a freaking troller . Plus you didn't show us feats .


He said Jubito was fast.

Dude, he definitely didn't know Tobirama tagged him until he told him to get back, which is when he had a surprised face with "!" and in the very next panel we see multiple captions showing Jubito tagged

What we do know is Tobirama has reflexes capable of reacting, and limb speed capable of physically touching Jubito multiple times before he shunshins past him.

You have a problem with this? Get over it, it happened. Stop crying. 

On top of this we know Tobirama's clone got to a Goudama and got out before KCM Minato could move his arm a foot

You have a problem with this? Get over it, it happened, Tobirama's clone out performed KCM Minato, stop crying 

What I'm finding difficult to believe is people suggesting Tobirama is slower than Base Minato, when he's doing things as well/if not better against Jubito than a Kurama Chakra Mode enhanced Minato and he has hype as being the fastest shinobi of his era (which includes EMS Madara & Hashirama- ninja clearly on Minato's speed level).

As an Edo, Tobirama was less than full powered. This cannot be argued, Tobirama stated it, and Madara stated it. Speed is power, especially for that shinobi, nothing suggests Edo Tobirama was at his fastest and yet he's still performing better than KCM Minato against Jubito.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

> He said Jubito was fast.
> 
> Dude, he definitely didn't know Tobirama tagged him until he told him to get back


Euuuh no ,a lot of translation were talking about Tobirama not Juubito , plus Minato said it the same way Kakashi was talking about First Part Lee without gates :


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

With the limited translation all I have him saying is "fast", which can be interpreted as him talking about Obito's first shunshin as a Juubi Jinchuriki

And when Tobirama tells him to jump out with Hirashin, he has a "!" and then Jubito is shown with tags on him

My initial diagnosis is Minato did not notice him tag him until after Tobirama urged him to get back, which is when I assume he looked at him with more focus and discovered the tags

If you have a more reliable translation please feel free to post it, and I'll concede I was wrong in KCM Minato not noticing


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2015)

Isaid that many translations is talking about Tobirama , and you said no he doesn't , lol , you are trolling again . Plus I read some other languges translations ,they also talk about Tobirama .

Plus the ":!" is because Minato didin't know that Tobirama's explosion Jutsu would have such a range that's all , he didn't understand why the nidaime told them to avoid him .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 21, 2015)

Please feel free to post these translations.

I find it more likely that he's surprised that Tobirama tagged him.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 22, 2015)

SM Minato couldnt teleport away from Juubidara, KCM Minato couldnt teleport away from Juubito. Yet, Minato will be able to teleport away from someone who could speedblitz Juubidara?


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> >Let's take lower end feats of Tobirama
> >And let's deny higher end feats of Tobirama
> 
> Because my name is Icegaze and I love to deny Tobirama's best work, and deny Minato's worst work.
> ...



Higher end feats of minato then ?

He reacts to 8th gate gai and use hirashin twice 

Why do u only mention the lower end feats ???

Or again does this not apply to  Minato 

Wonder what's better outpacing 8th gate gai or tagging mindless juubito

We got lower end of tobirama is being murderer by kinkaku and ginkaku, mid feat is being unable to touch Sm Madara from behind and high end is his clone touching juubito 


Lower end of minato would be getting countered by bee , mid feat is being slapped away by juubi jins and High end is outpacing gai . Which btw only happened with help same way tobirama touching juubito was never his effort alone


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2015)

Gai in 7th gate couldn't slap away attacks from fractions upon fractions of juudara power yet we believe said person pressures juudara when he can't troll 5 bijuu 

 

Both things did happen in the manga though 

Minato suddenly does things he shouldn't and so did 7th gate gai . Considering their performance and statements of their abilities before their obvious outliners


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 22, 2015)

> He reacts to 8th gate gai and use hirashin twice



That's such a great way of trolling. 

Your opponent brought an arguement, you countered it perfectly, but he keeps bringing that arguement all over again.

And *again*, and *again*, and *again*, and *again*.

Minato has never, ever, reacted to 8th Gate Gai moving at his full speed. In fact, even Gaara's sand moved faster than 8th Gate Gai, Lee could react to 8th Gate Gai's movement speed and Kakashi could do that too, making Kamui hole in Juubidara's Gudoudama before 8th Gate Gai got into a close distance with Juubidara.

And amped Minato got his arms teared off by characters far slower than 8th Gate Gai.

How many times will you bring that up, Isegaze? 



> Wonder what's better outpacing 8th gate gai or tagging mindless juubito



Wonder how long will you troll in this thread.



> We got lower end of tobirama is being murderer by kinkaku and ginkaku



We dont know anything about his fight with Kin/Gin. It happened off-panel.



> Which btw only happened with help same way tobirama touching juubito was never his effort alone



He touched him all by himself. Nobody helped him marking Juubito.



> Gai in 7th gate couldn't slap away attacks from fractions upon fractions of juudara power yet we believe said person pressures juudara when he can't troll 5 bijuu



SM Naruto cant troll 5 Bijuu Dama's, yet he could harm Juubito with senjutsu-amped Rassengan.

And touching Bijuu Damas is not the same as touching Juubi Jin's body. 



> Minato suddenly does things he shouldn't and so did 7th gate gai



Shouldnt? Are you sure? Do you have any evidence he shouldnt do such a thing?


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2015)

Then scans gai slowed down . Where are the screech marks . Or do u think someone that fast can instantly slow down 

 

7th gate gai couldn't do shit to 5 BD yet pressured juudara who slapped his best attack away . 

Hashirama got split as well . One could Say having to attack 2 different enemies made his attack slower unless u think u can hit 2 different targets physically at the same time 

The clone then returned an attack not even targeted at it . That's the definition of being helped to land a blow . 

I do when he decided to say he needs to use 8th gate to kill himself . Why not use 7th and use this awesome 7th gate speed to deflect it . I mean speed fast enough to surprise juudara should be able to achieve such

Even BM naruto speed isn't fast enough for juubito yet it could do that 

So what happened to 7th gate gai there ?


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 22, 2015)

> Then scans gai slowed down . Where are the screech marks . Or do u think someone that fast can instantly slow down



I've never said he instantly slowed down. 



> 7th gate gai couldn't do shit to 5 BD yet pressured juudara who slapped his best attack away .



Yes, he did. because only taijutsu and senjutsu worked on him. 



> Hashirama got split as well . One could Say having to attack 2 different enemies made his attack slower unless u think u can hit 2 different targets physically at the same time



I can say that the speed may  be a little bit slower, which doesnt make any difference. Tobirama still performed better than KCM Minato anyway.



> The clone then returned an attack not even targeted at it . That's the definition of being helped to land a blow .



Nobody helped Tobirama marking Juubito - he marked him by himself, thanks to his own physical movement speed.



> I do when he decided to say he needs to use 8th gate to kill himself . Why not use 7th and use this awesome 7th gate speed to deflect it . I mean speed fast enough to surprise juudara should be able to achieve such



He doesnt have *the firepower* to deflect them. BM Naruto, however, does.

You are trolling, obviously. 



> Even BM naruto speed isn't fast enough for juubito yet it could do that



Due to his *firepower*. 



> So what happened to 7th gate gai there ?



You want to argue about Juubidara not being serious in his fight with Gai again?


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 22, 2015)

The difference between us and Tobirama fans is that they don't care about manga's logic , the all fuck it . All that because they don't support seeing Minato faster than their beloved .

I have already exposed very logical facts , but they will never accept it :

*Spoiler*: __ 



It seems that a lot can't make a difference between :
-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .
-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .
-FTG defensive dodging with preparation


*I-FTG attacks when ennemy is marked .:*

general rule : If the ennemy is marked ,Juubi Jinchuriki or not he will be striked .

Examples :

-Tobirama used FTG to telport the GudoDama before KCM Minato who is much faster can en his move , *and Obito JJ didn't have time to react to Tobirama :*

*Spoiler*: __ 








-Obito JJ can't dodge two consecutive FTG (normal FTG + Hiraishin mawashi) :

*Spoiler*: __ 









-Obito JJ can't react to SM Naruto :

*Spoiler*: __ 









*II-FTG attacks when ennemy isn't marked .:*

general rule : If the ennemy has much better reflexes and very quick move he can dodge the FTG user .

Examples :

-SM Madara who is much slower than Obito JJ avoided Tobirama's HiraishinGiri :


-KCM Minato who is much faster than Tobirama lost his arm against Obito JJ :

*Spoiler*: __ 








-SM Minato who is much faster than Tobirama lost his second arm against Madara JJ :

*Spoiler*: __ 









*III--FTG defensive dodging with preparation :*

General rule : If FTG Kunais are laready prepared , the FTG can avoid any ennemie's attack at any distance , he has juts to think if he wants to escape.

-Base Minato can use two consecutive FTG in a very short distance between 8 gates Gai and Madara JJ's Gudo Damas (plus GudoDamas are faster than Madara JJ himself) :



*Conclusion :* depending on situation and FTG user toughts , he can be blited or not , but if he want just to escape he can easily do it .




They can't say nothing about that , when I ask them to do they show us absurdities such as :
-SM Madara faster than Obito JJ .
-Tobirama's clone faster than the original .
-SM Naruto is faster than KCM Minato .
-KCM Minato can't see KCM Naruto moves .

Etc , Etc . They will never accept the most logical feats of the manga .


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2015)

so gai slowed down in what scan mate? please provide it. how and when did he slow down...I need the scan 

[2]

what firepower was used in the scan that follows. are u saying it wasn't speed BM Naruto used? 

u are an epic troll

no but I would love to understand why gai shat himself here and Naruto used speed to slap all 5 away...

look at the next scan guess whose name kakashi mentioned after that feat....


----------



## Kyu (Sep 22, 2015)

ITT: Smh. Folks unable to differentiate between _reacting while anticipating a potential threat_ and _stopping your own assault to respond accordingly to an incoming attack_. 

Can Minato react to foes above him in overall strength at a reasonable distance? Yes, as he's done so on more than one occasion. *[1]**[2]* In addition, he has received consistent speed-related hype from numerous high-tiers to boot, unlike Lee or Gaara. This substantiates what he's displayed on panel. 

Can he counterattack or evade mid-strike to those foes? Juubi Madara says no.*[X]*


All I'll say on the matter. Beating a dead horse at this point


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2015)

Thank you Kyuu

I don't see why the 8th gate gai feat minato pulled would be disregarded, considering the distance minato started from 

and the fact that minato wasn't even the target

I swear with some people logic bee tentacle is faster than A. since u know bee tentacle could follow minato strike while A couldn't


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 22, 2015)

It's not disregarded, but he air kicked once bro. 

>Lee throws a kunai
>Gaara moves Kakashi up
>Kakashi uses Kamui

This shit happened before Gai got to him. Are you seriously willing to say Gaara can move sand to Judara faster than Gai can get to him at full speed?

I didn't want to bring this into it- because quite frankly one feat doesn't make Lee, Minato, Gaara or Kakashi faster than Gai. 

And they all reacted/performed a technique before Gai got to him. Gaara's sand, Lee's kunai throw, Minato's double FTG, Kakashi's Kamui are all faster than full speed Gai? That's what you think Icegaze?

Okay. I'll accept those feats. Now let's compare Minato & Gai's total feats. 

Gai blitzed Judara multiple times, tagging him on his physical body twice while he was looking at him, and multiple other times with Evening Elephant from mid-range and once from point-blank range (first EE). 

Minato got blitzed by Judara in SM, didn't touch him, didn't react with FTG. 

KCM Minato got blitzed by Jubito in CQC, didn't touch him, barely reacted with FTG, bomb planted on him without noticing.  

BM Minato could not blitz Jubito, Tobirama outright states it isn't going to work on him. 

What is your argument?  

Your one high-end feat and multiple low-end feats aren't beating Gai's multiple high-end feats and one low-end single air-kick movement feat.

That's not how it works at all dude.

Put all the feats up, compare them, make a conclusion- Gai is faster. This is how it works.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 22, 2015)

> >Lee throws a kunai
> >Gaara moves Kakashi up
> >Kakashi uses Kamui


They all did it after Gai used 4 long air cannons dude , while Minato used FTG  after The Kunai was launched , plus in a very close distance between him and red Gai . Gaara/Lee feats can not be compared to Minato's , plus Kakashi used a very small Kamui , much smaler than humain size , so it's a lot faster .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 22, 2015)

Doesn't matter, these reactions were made and these techniques were used prior to Gai arriving at Judara, the sand was delivered in the position that Kakashi could snipe a hole for the attacking angle Gai was currently moving in before Gai arrived there- Minato warped in front of the truthseekers fired right at Gai, Lee threw a kunai in the trajectory of truthseekers fired right at Gai- so he would allow Minato to intercept them.

If you're willing to allow Minato's feat as a reaction/outpacing of Red Gai, the others are surely applicable as well.

But again, compare their full list of feats- the conclusion will always be that Red Gai is faster.

One high-end feat of intercepting truthseekers does not make Minato faster than Red Gai.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 22, 2015)

No , Gaara and Lee began moving before red Gai start Sekizou , so they only arrived at the fifth strike , plus Gai was completely changing the area to the hole opposit side after each air cannon . And that's make a sens , that's why Gaara and 6 Gates Lee arrived at time .

Plus Minato used two consecutive FTG at avery short range while red Gai was moving at a speed dramaticaly faster than Madara JJ . That's prove that Minato can evade all Juubi Jinchurikis and red Gai attacks if Kunais are already prepared if he just want to escape .


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 22, 2015)

Kyu said:


> ITT: Smh. Folks unable to differentiate between _reacting while anticipating a potential threat_ and _stopping your own assault to respond accordingly to an incoming attack_.
> 
> Can Minato react to foes above him in overall strength at a reasonable distance? Yes, as he's done so on more than one occasion. *[1]**[2]* In addition, he has received consistent speed-related hype from numerous high-tiers to boot, unlike Lee or Gaara. This substantiates what he's displayed on panel.
> 
> ...



He attacked Juubidara and Juubito without anticipating a potential threat? Maybe he wasnt a sensor? Maybe Hiraishin doesnt require only a mental thought? Maybe Juubidara and Juubito werent in his LoS? 

They were not striking him when he attacked either of them. He was a sensor. Both of them were in his LoS. Hiraishin requires only a mental thought. Yet he couldnt teleport away. Even if he wanted to protect himself, he wouldnt be able to teleport away because of their speed. Because In this case, there is no difference between just "defending himself" and "attacking an opponent" situation.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 22, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No , Gaara and Lee began moving before red Gai start Sekizou , so they only arrived at the fifth strike , plus Gai was completely changing the area to the hole opposit side after each air cannon . And that's make a sens , that's why Gaara and 6 Gates Lee arrived at time .
> 
> Plus Minato used two consecutive FTG at avery short range while red Gai was moving at a speed dramaticaly faster than Madara JJ . That's prove that Minato can evade all Juubi Jinchurikis and red Gai attacks if Kunais are already prepared if he just want to escape .



Gaara's sand clearly moved faster than 8th Gate Gai in that situation. Lee's Kunai moved faster than 8th Gate Gai in that situation. Kakashi could make hole in Gudoudama just in time. 

Re-read that manga chapter.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 22, 2015)

> Gaara's sand clearly moved faster than 8th Gate Gai in that situation. Lee's Kunai moved faster than 8th Gate Gai in that situation. Kakashi could make hole in Gudoudama just in time.


read well what I wrote and go read manga before saying BS and totaly absurd interpretations .


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2015)

> DaVizWiz said:
> 
> 
> > It's not disregarded, but he air kicked once bro.
> ...


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 22, 2015)

*Starwander *has anything to counter this args :



> No , Gaara and Lee began moving before red Gai start Sekizou , so they only arrived at the fifth strike , plus Gai was completely changing the area to the hole opposit side after each air cannon . And that's make a sens , that's why Gaara and 6 Gates Lee arrived at time .
> 
> Plus Minato used two consecutive FTG at avery short range while red Gai was moving at a speed dramaticaly faster than Madara JJ . That's prove that Minato can evade all Juubi Jinchurikis and red Gai attacks if Kunais are already prepared if he just want to escape .



He is jsut saying that 6 Gates Lee and Gaara are faster than 8 Gates Gai because of his preferences .


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 22, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> read well what I wrote and go read manga before saying BS and totaly absurd interpretations .



I've read that nonsense of yours and countered it already. No need to read it again. 

Do you want me to post scans from that chapter to remind you that situation? 

No problem.



Can you see Gaara's sand there? No, you cant. Although it was near him in this scan.



And Kakashi reacted to 8th Gate Gai's speed, the speed with which Gai could blitz Juubidara, and created a hole in Gudoudama with Kamui before Gai got close to Juubidara.

The quastion is - how? How in the world Gaara's sand was that fast? How in the world Lee, although in 6th Gate, could react to 8th Gate Gai's speed and through kunai with such a "nice timing"? How in the world Kakashi could react to his speed and create a hole in Gudoudama? 

And, finally, how in the world base Minato could react to someone, who is a lot faster than both Juubidara and Juubito when amped Minato couldnt do that, at all? he had kunais, he had marks, he could teleport away from them, since Hiraishin requires a mere thought. But even amped, he couldnt.

Will you provide your fanfic again? Yes, you will. But that wont change the fact that Minato cant react to 8th Gate Gai's full speed. 



> only if u willing to say rock lee can hit obito trying to kamui wrap away from more than 70m away. otherwise no I am not saying that
> 
> or only if u are willing to say from less than 10m out part 1 kakashi cant hit zabuza before haku from far away can take out his 8 dogs and intercept kakashi.
> 
> ...



8th Gate Gai clearly slowed down there. Juubidara's Gudoudama, which he didnt want to hit, was one reason. Teammates which could help him get past Gudoudama was another reason.



> ok so tobirama 1 feat of in your mind tagging juubito 6 times suddenly makes him much faster than minato? while forgetting his other feats such as failing to hit madara in a surprise hirashin attack?



SM RT Madara, who was worlds beyond Minato in terms of speed and could do the same thing to him, but even easier?

Tobirama was faster than KCM Minato. Base Minato is out of the quastion.

However, that has nothing to do with this debate.



> again only if u think haku is much faster than kakashi, suigetsu much faster than V1 A, A touching minato nose, and lee being faster than goudama. if u believe those things then yes I believe they all can react to 8th gate gai but doesn't mean they can move or do anything about it



Again - Gai wasnt moving with his full speed there.



> true however intercepted goudama.



Which is a lot slower than Juubito. Juubidara is out of the quastion.



> yet the one clash they had in a specific situation with them in the same panel minato turned out to be faster
> 
> again I know its bullshit but it is as much bullshit as 6th gate lee being faster than goudama, haku being faster than kakashi and so on
> 
> ...



Even Gaara's sand moved faster than 8th gate Gai there. He was clearly not moving with his full speed.


----------



## Braiyan (Sep 22, 2015)

So if the Minato feat of him teleporting those gudodamas is valid, then Gaara transporting his sand right next to 8 Gate Guy is also valid. Despite him admitting that his sand was slower than Madara's gudodamas. Despite both Lee and Guy outspeeding those gudodamas in a lower Gate.

So are we saying that Gaara's sand = (8th Gate) Guy >>> (5th Gate) Lee = (6th Gate or lower) Guy > Madara's gudodama > Gaara's sand?


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 22, 2015)

Braiyan	 said:
			
		

> So if the Minato feat of him teleporting those gudodamas is valid, then Gaara transporting his sand right next to 8 Gate Guy is also valid. Despite him admitting that his sand was slower than Madara's gudodamas. Despite both Lee and Guy outspeeding those gudodamas in a lower Gate.
> 
> So are we saying that Gaara's sand = (8th Gate) Guy >>> (5th Gate) Lee = (6th Gate or lower) Guy > Madara's gudodama > Gaara's sand?



No I have already explained why :


*Spoiler*: __ 



No , Gaara and Lee began moving before red Gai start Sekizou , so they only arrived at the fifth strike , plus Gai was completely changing the area to the hole opposit side after each air cannon . And that's make a sens , that's why Gaara and 6 Gates Lee arrived at time .

Plus Minato used two consecutive FTG at avery short range while red Gai was moving at a speed dramaticaly faster than Madara JJ . That's prove that Minato can evade all Juubi Jinchurikis and red Gai attacks if Kunais are already prepared if he just want to escape .




And so :
8 Gates Gay>GudoDamas>>>>6 Gates Lee>Gaara's sand


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2015)

@star why quote my response to davizwiz
Don't got much to say to you really . I'll await davizwiz reply or when am bored I'll reply you by saying 

I need panel indications gai slowed down . Till then go sit in a corner somewhere


----------



## Sferr (Sep 22, 2015)

There are no arguments that can be made for Minato reacting to 8th Gate Gai that don't involve 6th Gated Lee not being elevated to a god-tier status.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 23, 2015)

> No I have already explained why :
> 
> Spoiler:
> 
> ...



That "explanation" got countered. And it's not only about Gaara's sand out there.



> @star why quote my response to davizwiz
> Don't got much to say to you really . I'll await davizwiz reply or when am bored I'll reply you by saying
> 
> I need panel indications gai slowed down . Till then go sit in a corner somewhere



Because i want to. 

Explain to me why Gaara's sand was faster than 8th Gate Gai, why Kakashi could react to his speed and create a hole in Gudoudama with Kamui, why Gated Lee had such a nice timing, why base Minato, who couldnt react to characters a *lot slower* than 8th Gate Gai, could react to his speed.

Till then go sit in a corner somewhere.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

For the same reason gai who was afraid of BD could then engage juudara 
Cuz Kishi loves outliners 

That's about it really .


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

Your still compare Tobirama to Minato  , oh man , they will never understand . Minato's FTG attacks are even faster thant Madara JJ moves :

-Obito can't even react against Minato :


-Madara JJ can't touch the same Obito :

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

@star what I find most odd is gai aura somehow can repel Amaterasu something u can't deny claiming 

Forms an ocean into a vortex easily but somehow that aura he has isn't enough to deflect BD ? 

When naruto used nothing but simple speed . But somehow ur excuse is guy is a bigot who can't touch BD and feels the need to discriminate against it ?

or maybe he just couldn't do shit either way 

Unless u can explain why suddenly in 8th gate he can touch it . How does his body change ? What makes 8 gate body touch BD but not 7th


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> For the same reason gai who was afraid of BD could then engage juudara
> Cuz Kishi loves outliners
> 
> That's about it really .



With 7th Gate? When he cant even touch them? When the only ranged attack he has in 7th Gate is Hirudora, which exhausts him a lot?

8th Gate Gai slowed down. That can be explained. That perfectly makes sense.



> Your still compare Tobirama to Minato , oh man , they will never understand . Minato's FTG attacks are even faster thant Madara JJ moves :
> 
> -Obito can't even react against Minato :
> Spoiler:
> ...



Obito got him with chains, got his arm and almost got him in Kamui, he also reacted to Minato's striking speed.

As i've explained earlier - Obito could become intangible right after stabing Juubidara, because Juubidara counter-attacking him is a predictable move. 

Will you bring out this "Obito" thing again?


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @star what I find most odd is gai aura somehow can repel Amaterasu something u can't deny claiming
> 
> Forms an ocean into a vortex easily but somehow that aura he has isn't enough to deflect BD ?
> 
> ...



When did i claim that Gai's aura can repel Amaterasu. Proof, please. I could write that Gated Gai can dodge Amaterasu. And that's true.

Plus, he has that aura only while he activates 7th Gate.

And Bijuu Damas >>>> simple water.

Excuse? That's not an excuse. That's me not accepting your fanfic opinion.

We dont know if he could make 5 Hirudora's to deflect them. And i dont remember him being so durable that he can touch Bijuu Damas without getting injured.

8th Gate Gai's Evening Elephant is a ranged attack. 5 steps. 5 ranged air attacks. His Evening Elephant works like an air cannon.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

> Obito got him with chains, got his arm and almost got him in Kamui, he also reacted to Minato's striking speed.


No , manga feat , Obito didn't react to Minato's FTG while he reacted to Madara JJ's punch, you can't change it . For you there is any difference between beeing marked or not , so I respond you by your kind of thinking . (And we find a lot of another absurd conclusions such as SM Naruto is faster than KCM Minato , Tobirama faster than Minato....) .


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 23, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No , manga feat , Obito didn't react to Minato's FTG while he reacted to Madara JJ's punch, you can't change it . For you there is any difference between beeing marked or not , so I respond you by your kind of thinking . (And we find a lot of another absurd conclusions such as SM Naruto is faster than KCM Minato , Tobirama faster than Minato....) .



As i wrote before - he could become intangible right after stabbing Juubidara. Have you read what i wrote there?

And teenager Obito <<<<<<<<<<<< adult Obito. 

Do you know what absurd is? Talking about FTG markings in a thread where Gai is not marked and where Minato wont be able to mark him, at all. Minato wont be able to react to him.

And do not compare "hititng a marked target" with "dodging an attack". Juubito was caught off-guard, since he didnt know about himself being marked and because Naruto appeared right behind him.

SM Minato could teleport away from Juubidara. But he didnt. KCM Minato could teleport away from Juubito. But he didnt. Because he couldnt. In both occasions. Now imagine someone who is *a lot faster* than both Juubidara and Juubito attacking Minato. Will he be able to teleport away?

8th Gate Gai is out of his league. Minato cant react to 8th Gate Gai moving at full speed.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

Euuuuuh no , Obto hasn't any Shinbois natural talent , it's all due to his genes , Sharingan and MS power , that's all , plus he bever use clones ,so unlike naruto he can't progress very fast in a record ime , and so :
War Arc Obito = Obito and Kyubi vs Minato .

And even without this feat , *you are still saying by your absurd thinking that SM Naruto moves are by far faster than KCM Minaot * , if you say yes , then you are obviously a troll .


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

why cant he touch them in 7th gate? he got an aura doesnt he?

so then u are admitting gai isnt fast enough to form 5 hirudora ? yet can somehow pressure juudara with speed? sounds outliner doesnt it 

so BM naruto is more durable than 7th gate gai in his human form? yes or no?

is KCM naruto also more durable than 7th gate gai ? yes or no? 

cuz both have no issues touching other people bijuudama

so what ur saying in short is naruto can use speed to repel them yet gai who is apparently much faster cant use 5 separate attacks? or even get kakashi out of there in time with this magical 7th gate speed

yh gai decides he needs to kill himself to deflect 5 attacks BM shits on yet somehow ur logic is his feat against juudara isnt an outliner

so gai decides to go 7th gate against something horrendously stronger than all those bijuu he fought, who could fire BD much larger and stronger. yet its not a ridiculous outliner that gai didnt die by his mere presence  

yh ur living in gai pants here


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 23, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Obto hasn't any Shinbois natural talent , it's all due to his genes , Sharingan and MS power , that's all



Did you just contradict yourself?



> , plus he bever use clones ,so unlike naruto he can't progress very fast in a record ime



Just because you don't use clones doesn't mean you can't progress fast.

Sasuke is an exemple.



> War Arc Obito = Obito and Kyubi vs Minato .



Rinnegan Obito pin Kyubi down and break his younger self in half.



> And even without this feat , *you are still saying by your absurd thinking that SM Naruto moves are by far faster than KCM Minaot * , if you say yes , then you are obviously a troll .



I love how you compare incomparable things.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

> Sasuke is an exemple.


It's not comparable at all Sasuke is a genius while Obito is failure as a ninja , one of the weakest members of Uchiha clan .




> Did you just contradict yourself?


You don't understand my previous post , I said that Obito is only genetical ower , his raw level : Taijutsu , ninjutsu , weapon usage , agility , speed , are all low or at the best case just normal , nothing special just like Naruto . Example : Naruto needs more than 20 years to learn an affinity in raw method while Sasuke needs only one week , the gap between the two is reelly huge . So yeah , he can advance but realy slowly

And luckily , he has Hashirama's cells to raise all his base stats and make him in a reasonable state to fight someone like Minato and Gai+Kakashi+KCM Naruto wihthout beeing massacred in one shot . Plus , he has one of the most powerful Dojutsu in history , he can use MS and Kamui to avoid fatal Jutsu's at many times .



> Rinnegan Obito pin Kyubi down and break his younger self in half.


Obito can barely use rinnegan , go read the manga , that doesn't change his reflexes and move speed , we are talking about that .




> I love how you compare incomparable things.


I don't understantd what are you talking about now , but are you avoiding my question :
_you are still saying by your absurd thinking that SM Naruto moves are by far faster than KCM Minaot , if you say yes , then you are obviously a troll . If you say no , then all you thinking are wrong _


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

rinnegan obito>>obito without it. this much was already made clear

but this adult obito>>younger obito not really no distinction was made

no different from A got faster several years later. yet kishi couldnt be asked to mention it

yet has no issues specifically mentioning onoki got faster than he was in his prime, a character not even known for speed

yh if obito or A improved at all in the gap where they both got trolled it would have been mentioned

as to the thread. no minato dies asap!!! is my opinion to the normal people...

to those who count interception feats then nope he avoids while having a laugh


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 23, 2015)

10 pages. What i got from this thread:

Juudara and Juubito tearing Minato appart with relative ease was plot. Rock Lee and Gaara doing what they did against Gai was plot, too. But not the Minato part.

Juudara and Juubito defeating Minato is way less logical than Minato reacting twice before Gai moved an inch. Because Minato's a god that can't be hit by such lower guys like Juudara and Juubito, that should be utterly BS.

I was going to ask a mod to close it already. But i just won't. I'll keep seeing people choosing what info to believe. Despite being ilogical or not .


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

u forgot gai not being able to deflect 5 BD yet can somehow pressure juudara as being a BS outliner and less logical 


oh yh and 7th gate gai being on the battle field against ET madara yet didnt shit blitz him and seal him 

despite again being able to apparently pressure juudara

 people pick and choose dont they lostself....the name implies it all


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 23, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> It's not comparable at all Sasuke is a genius while Obito is failure as a ninja , one of the weakest members of Uchiha clan



Yet look at how this "failure" ended up.




> You don't understand my previous post , I said that Obito is only genetical ower , his raw level : Taijutsu , ninjutsu , weapon usage , agility , speed , are all low or at the best case just normal , nothing special just like Naruto . Example : Naruto needs more than 20 years to learn an affinity in raw method while Sasuke needs only one week , the gap between the two is reelly huge . So yeah , he can advance but realy slowly
> 
> And luckily , he has Hashirama's cells to raise all his base stats and make him in a reasonable state to fight someone like Minato and Gai+Kakashi+KCM Naruto wihthout beeing massacred in one shot . Plus , he has one of the most powerful Dojutsu in history , he can use MS and Kamui to avoid fatal Jutsu's at many times .



Except that you're forgetting that he got trained by Madara.

Plus, him using Kamui wouldn't matter much if he couldn't use it well.

Plus, look at his katons.



> Obito can barely use rinnegan , go read the manga , that doesn't change his reflexes and move speed , we are talking about that .



Good thing I ain't talking about the Rinnegan.




> I don't understantd what are you talking about now , but are you avoiding my question :
> _you are still saying by your absurd thinking that SM Naruto moves are by far faster than KCM Minaot , if you say yes , then you are obviously a troll . If you say no , then all you thinking are wrong _



First, that's not a question.

Second, you're comparing someone hitting another person (SM Naruto hitting J Obito) with one who's doing the opposite (aka dodging (KCM Minato)), that's why I said that you're comparing things that are not mean to be compared.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> u forgot gai not being able to deflect 5 BD yet can somehow pressure juudara as being a BS outliner and less logical
> 
> 
> oh yh and 7th gate gai being on the battle field against ET madara yet didnt shit blitz him and seal him
> ...



What other people says has nothing to do with me. I never said Gai pressured Juudara. The farthest i went was saying Gai got in front of him before Juudara noticed.

So don't know why using that card against me. Also, Gai only uses the 8th gate to protect somebody. He might've been thinking on using it to save Kakashi. Because... Hashirama was able to dodge a PS slash used from all angles by KyuubiSusano'o.

Why Gai, who's faster, wouldn't be able to get himself out of the way?


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> What other people says has nothing to do with me. I never said Gai pressured Juudara. The farthest i went was saying Gai got in front of him before Juudara noticed.
> 
> So don't know why using that card against me. Also, Gai only uses the 8th gate to protect somebody. He might've been thinking on using it to save Kakashi. Because... Hashirama was able to dodge a PS slash used from all angles by KyuubiSusano'o.
> 
> Why Gai, who's faster, wouldn't be able to get himself out of the way?



i know 

never said u claimed that. am saying u forgot to mention those things were said as well on the thread

not using it against u. how does my saying that gai didnt affect you? will gai get mad at u?

well gai said he needed 8th gate against it. thats all that can be taken from it. is that 7th gate wont have been enough

yet BM laughs at such useless attacks with just speed


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

> Except that you're forgetting that he got trained by Madara.
> 
> Plus, him using Kamui wouldn't matter much if he couldn't use it well.
> 
> Plus, look at his katons.


Naruto without Kurama's chakra can summon this in better cases :


With just a bit of Kurama's chakra , he can summon this :


Obito is the same , without Hashi cells , he is nothing , plus he even raise his Katon power using Kamui .

Then yeah , he has Madara's training , that's why he mastered his MS , and why he could fight (if we can call it a fight) against Minato . After that , it was a very slow advancing .



> Good thing I ain't talking about the Rinnegan.


Good , then you are talking about anti-Bijuu Power , what will that shit on MS Obito , I don't understand , he block Kurama , and then ...



> Second, you're comparing someone hitting another person (SM Naruto hitting J Obito) with one who's doing the opposite (aka dodging (KCM Minato)), that's why I said that you're comparing things that are not mean to be compared.


Iam waiting for the page when KCM Minato tried to avoid Juubito , in a facial attack , don't talk about Taijutsu exchanges , because it's a hol another matter .


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 23, 2015)

> not using it against u. how does my saying that gai didnt affect you? will gai get mad at u?



Don't know what you meant with this.

Gai needed to use it to protect Kakashi, not to protect himself. Even though i doubt Gai would be able to get out of the explosive range in the 7th, considering the huge AoE would've taken them out, and maybe only the 8th gate could.

That's not to say BM Naruto could go out of the AoE generated by the blasts either.

But i wouldn't have a problem with Naruto being faster than 7th Gated Gai. After all, didn't KCM Naruto bested Ei's top speed? BM Should make him go beyond that. However, that doesn't take out Gai's speed, since it has nothing to do with BM Naruto's speed. Talking about his feats against Madara.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Don't know what you meant with this.
> 
> Gai needed to use it to protect Kakashi, not to protect himself. Even though i doubt Gai would be able to get out of the explosive range in the 7th, considering the huge AoE would've taken them out, and maybe only the 8th gate could.
> 
> ...



u falsely claiming am using something against u thats what i mean

ok so my point again is to protect himself and kakashi 7th gate isnt enough. 

BM doesnt need to go out of the blast he can use speed to send them away as in canon 

ok. ur last part is all i was illustrating. 

therefore isnt 7th gate gai feat against juudara as much an outliner as minato feat against 8th gate gai and the goudama situation?

ps: after BM naruto feat, kakashi still managed to believe it was minato who just showed up and got rid of the BD. possibly thinking he showed up fast enough to then set up barriers to send 5 BD to explode. 

then again he did latter on do the same thign to juubidama quite easily..while the BD was already on killer bee possibly about to explode

so considering kishi never really missed a chance to hype minato speed

KCM naruto blitz kisame....oops minato must be mentioned

BM slaps 5 BD away with speed ooops minato must be mentioned

why is it more ridiculous for that kind of person who btw kishi still again managed to hype in BD to have the reactions to use instant movement twice

yet gai who has alot less hype in 7th gate and no feats before juudara incident somehow makes perfect sense that he didnt get slapped away

thats the bit i dont get with any pro gai post really


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 23, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Naruto without Kurama's chakra can summon this in better cases :
> 
> 
> With just a bit of Kurama's chakra , he can summon this :



That's great and all but we're talking about Obito.



> Obito is the same , without Hashi cells , he is nothing , plus he even raise his Katon power using Kamui .



You do realise that Hashi's cells mean shit to Kage-level people right?

It's by himself (aka his MS and other shit) that he could stand up to others.



> Then yeah , he has Madara's training , that's why he mastered his MS , and why he could fight (if we can call it a fight) against Minato . *After that , it was a very slow advancing .*



Citation Needed.



> Good , then you are talking about anti-Bijuu Power , what will that shit on MS Obito , I don't understand , he block Kurama , and then ...



He pin down Kurama (or he let Gedo do it for him) and rip his younger self a new one, yes.



> Iam waiting for the page when KCM Minato tried to avoid Juubito , in a facial attack , don't talk about Taijutsu exchanges , because it's a hol another matter .



Wat?

Juubito was clearly in his LOS, what are you talking about?


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

Hashi cells mean shit to kage level ninja ? 

U mean the thing that allowed Danzo to skip a 10 year cool down period on koto and cut it down to 1 day 

Lol hashi cells are everything buddy 

Ridiculous boost considering without it obito won't even be a kamui spammer 
M


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Hashi cells mean shit to kage level ninja ?
> 
> U mean the thing that allowed Danzo to skip a 10 year cool down period on koto and cut it down to 1 day



Yeah, but Danzo isn't really Kage level without Izanagi now is he 

I mean Koto is nice and all, but the CD kinda kill it even if it reduced to one day.

SZ is the only one I can find for Hashi cells make you instantly Kage-level.



> Ridiculous boost considering without it obito won't even be a kamui spammer



That's funny since War Arc Kakashi doesn't have Senju Cells nor is he an Uchiha but he can still spam Kamui like crazy


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Yeah, but Danzo isn't really Kage level without Izanagi now is he
> 
> I mean Koto is nice and all, but the CD kinda kill it even if it reduced to one day.
> 
> ...



And obito isn't kage level without kamui  

Lol u mean use it 6 times then fall to the ground with his eyes bleeding 

Obito used it twice as many times and was still fine . His eyes never had an issue 

Goal post shifting though since u said hashi cells mean shit 

Yet so far it's the reason Danzo and obito can spam izanagi and kamui respectively which make them kage level 

Try harder


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> And obito isn't kage level without kamui



Yeah, but this isn't borrowed power, now is he.

Even without Hashi cells, Koto would still make Danzo dangerous.

And even without Kamui I could argue that he's close to Kage thanks to reaction.



> Lol u mean use it 6 times then fall to the ground with his eyes bleeding



That still count as spamming tho.



> Obito used it twice as many times and was still fine . His eyes never had an issue



Yeah and?



> Goal post shifting though since u said hashi cells mean shit



They doesn't mean much compared to Kages. Yes.

Bar SZ and obviously Hashi , the people who are there or above would still be there without it 



> Yet so far it's the reason Danzo and obito can spam izanagi and kamui respectively which make them kage level



Obito's above Kage-level, and even if he didn't had hashi cells he would still be able to spam Kamui blind like Kakashi showed.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 23, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Euuuuuh no , Obto hasn't any Shinbois natural talent , it's all due to his genes , Sharingan and MS power , that's all , plus he bever use clones ,so unlike naruto he can't progress very fast in a record ime , and so :
> War Arc Obito = Obito and Kyubi vs Minato .
> 
> And even without this feat , *you are still saying by your absurd thinking that SM Naruto moves are by far faster than KCM Minaot * , if you say yes , then you are obviously a troll .



Obito has natural talent. He is like Naruto - a late bloomer. He fought KCM Naruto, who not only has reaction speed very well ocmparable to that of base Minato, but also has Shunshin faster than Minato's, base Might Gai and Kakashi - all of them at the same time. That's i call progress.

 In before you saying that Rinnegan gives precognition or some sort of speed boost. 

You are comparing things that shouldnt be compared, as Hachibi pointed out.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Yeah, but this isn't borrowed power, now is he.
> 
> Even without Hashi cells, Koto would still make Danzo dangerous.
> 
> ...



 goalpost shifting again 
Borrowed or not obito isn't kage level without kamui no where close 


Obito with no kamui gets shat on causally . Even his katon is enhanced by hashi cells 

Neither would be anything noteworthy without hashirama boost 

so again u are wrong


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Borrowed or not obito isn't kage level without kamui no where close



Depend. Even without Kamui, I could say that Rinnegan Obito is close.

If you want me to I can bring scans.



> Even his katon is enhanced by hashi cells



No?

The only thing that showed his Katon being enhanced was Kamui, and that looked like it only increased the size of it.



> Neither would be anything noteworthy without hashirama boost



So Kamui and Koto aren't anything noteworthy?


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 23, 2015)

> why cant he touch them in 7th gate? he got an aura doesnt he?



An aura of vaporising sweat. Do you have any proof that vaporising sweat is super-durable and can repel such a powerful compressed chakra as Bijuu Dama? 



> so then u are admitting gai isnt fast enough to form 5 hirudora ? yet can somehow pressure juudara with speed? sounds outliner doesnt it



Have you read what i wrote before, in 9th page of this thread? It seems you havent.

It is not about speed - it is about Hirudora exhausting him, a lot. In that situation, he would need 5 Hirudora's, which will exhaust him. He wont be fast enough because every Hirudora would slow him down due to a lot of Pain caused by 7th Gate usage. Or, he will collapse after 3th, or 4th Hirudora due to exhaustion and pain. Plus, do you count that he fought a lot before that situation? Do you count that he used Gates before that situation? He was not fresh.



> so BM naruto is more durable than 7th gate gai in his human form? yes or no?



Yes. In KCM cloak, he could touch Bijuu Dama without any problem. BM's cloak is better.



> is KCM naruto also more durable than 7th gate gai ? yes or no?



Yes.



> cuz both have no issues touching other people bijuudama



*And?*



> so what ur saying in short is naruto can use speed to repel them yet gai who is apparently much faster cant use 5 separate attacks? or even get kakashi out of there in time with this magical 7th gate speed



Yes, because:

1) He cant touch Bijuu Dama.
2) Hirudora exhausts him, a lot.

Maybe Kishimoto havent thought about that option? Or maybe Kishimoto made Gai... not that smart to think about that option? In any case, that doesnt refute his 7th Gate feat against Juubidara.



> yh gai decides he needs to kill himself to deflect 5 attacks BM shits on yet somehow ur logic is his feat against juudara isnt an outliner



Yes, it isnt. The only option he had - saving Kakashi. But read what i wrote above. You havent refute his 7th gate feat.



> so gai decides to go 7th gate against something horrendously stronger than all those bijuu he fought, who could fire BD much larger and stronger. yet its not a ridiculous outliner that gai didnt die by his mere presence



Maybe Gai thought that 7th Gate is suitable enough to fight one person, although it is Juubi's Jin, then deflecting 5 Bijuu Damas with it, dont you think?



> yh ur living in gai pants here



You have failed to refute Gai's feat, again. How many attempts there were? You are grabbing a straw, but it is useless, as always.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

Lol so failure to do something easy doesn't refute gai feat 

Then why does minato previous failures refute his feat of outpacing gai ?

Double standards ?

Gai less impressive showings lets forget them no issues 

Minato's however never that u bring up . Well in the same manga we got minato out pacing gai which u can never prove he slowed down outside saying gaara sand can't be that fast . Well it was just previously used in a combo with kamui and also the lee can't throw kunai that fast with no proof of otherwise 


So Yh bias a lot here . 

On the best side minato outpaced gai end of it . U can bring all other shit into it . But the scan is there as much as 7th gate gai feat which doesn't follow with anything he previously did in that form


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 24, 2015)

> Lol so failure to do something easy doesn't refute gai feat



Yes, it doesnt. Because of mny details you seemingly dont care about. Thanks to those details, i've refuted your attempt to downplay his feat.



> Then why does minato previous failures refute his feat of outpacing gai ?



Because:

1) Gaara's sand moved faster than 8th Gate Gai.
2) 6th Gate Lee could react to "full" 8th Gate Gai's speed with "nice timing".
3) Kakashi could react to "full" 8th Gate Gai's speed and create a hole in Gudoudama with long-ranged Kamui.

8th Gate Gai wasnt moving with his full speed there because of Gudoudama he didnt want to hit and because he had his teammates with a capability to make a hole in Gudoudama.



> Double standards ?



Nope.

You dont have a proof that in 7th Gates, he can touch Bijuu Dama.

You dont have a proof that he will be able to make 5 Hirudora's without collapsing after 4th Hirudora due to exhaustion

That's not double standarts - that's your attempt to grab a straw. The same as Gai using 7th Gate against Edo Madara off-panel in the same way he used it against Juubidara, which is your fanfic. Furthermore, it would have been stupid to use it against him for a second time if previously, it was useless.



> Gai less impressive showings lets forget them no issues



Less impressive showings? Such as?

But ok - can you remind me a situation where Minato was capable of deflecting multiple Bijuu Damas? The Juubidama you may talk about later was slowed down by Hachibi.



> Minato's however never that u bring up . Well in the same manga we got minato out pacing gai which u can never prove he slowed down outside saying gaara sand can't be that fast . Well it was just previously used in a combo with kamui and also the lee can't throw kunai that fast with no proof of otherwise



I've done that already. 

And that previous usage proves nothing at all. Re-read that chapter. The situations were completely different. And the way of using sand was completely different.

But ok - lets forget about that and lots of other things. Lets forget about amped Minato being blitzed by characters whom 8th Gate Gai could blitz. 



> So Yh bias a lot here .







> On the best side minato outpaced gai end of it . U can bring all other shit into it . But the scan is there as much as 7th gate gai feat which doesn't follow with anything he previously did in that form



On the best side he never did that to 8th Gate Gai moving at his full speed. 

And how that doesnt follow? Can you explain to me how that doesnt follow? I'll wait.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2015)

KCM Minato could barely react to Juubito. Gai runs 2000 laps around him and kicks his head off before Minato can form a coherent thought.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 24, 2015)

Well we got the manga suggesting minato can touch goudama and move out of the 70m effective range quicker than gai ever could so I dunno what to take from that 

Since interception feats are valid apparently then Yh gaara, minato, rock lee and kakashi can react 

Save themselves however is entirely different . S/T users or gods only 

And of course


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 24, 2015)

> Well we got the manga suggesting minato can touch goudama and move out of the 70m effective range quicker than gai ever could so I dunno what to take from that



Gudoudamas are not as fast as Juubi Jins.



> Since interception feats are valid apparently then Yh gaara, minato, rock lee and kakashi can react



There was no sand near Gai at that moment, Kakashi could somehow react to that kind of speed and create Kamui hole in time and Lee had such a nice timing wth his Kunai. Plus, Minato could react to 8th Gate Gai's "full speed"  when he was blitzed by both Juubito and Juubidara.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> Gudoudamas are not as fast as Juubi Jins.


GudoDamas moves are faster than Juubi Jins Shunshin , the proof , Madara used Gudodamas against Obito and Kakashi not his raw speed . Or are you saying he is a dumb ?


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> GudoDamas moves are faster than Juubi Jins Shunshin , the proof , Madara used Gudodamas against Obito and Kakashi not his raw speed . Or are you saying he is a dumb ?



I think you need to reread that part.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

Now , you haven't any argument and you are just blablating again , Madara JJ used GudoDama's=>GudoDama's faster than him , it's that simple .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Now , you haven't any argument and you are just blablating again , Madara JJ used GudoDama's=>GudoDama's faster than him , it's that simple .





Yeah sure, it's not like it was the safer option. Totally not the case.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> Yeah sure, it's not like it was the safer option. Totally not the case.


So you think Madara can't use Shunshin and Gudo Damas at the same time 

Go read the manga .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> So you think Madara can't use Shunshin and Gudo Damas at the same time
> 
> Go read the manga .



Please tell me where I ever said this?


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

you are supposing that Madara JJ can't Shunshin , so ... If he isn't a dumb and his Shunshin was faster than GudoDama , he would use GudoDama to blitz one of them and Shunshin to the other one . Apparently it isn't the case .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> you are supposing that Madara JJ can't Shunshin , so ... If he isn't a dumb and his Shunshin was faster than GudoDama , he would use GudoDama to blitz one of them and Shunshin to the other one . Apparently it isn't the case .



Yeah, but you're forgetting that:

1) He has to hold back against Obito to not harm his Rinnegan.

2) Like the scan I showed say, he needed to hit both of them at once to stop Kamui shenanigan.

3) Limbo would have being seen thanks to Rinnegan.

Or are you telling me that Gated Lee > JJ Madara?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2015)

In most cases shinobi aren't faster than the projectiles they use. That beats the purpose of a projectile.


There might be exceptions to this but I don't see any reason why Madara is one.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In most cases shinobi aren't faster than the projectiles they use. That beats the purpose of a projectile.
> 
> 
> There might be exceptions to this but I don't see any reason why Madara is one.



That's kinda the case here tho.

I mean, Kakashi had to time use Kamui against the Gudodama but he was blitzed by JJ Madara


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In most cases shinobi aren't faster than the projectiles they use. That beats the purpose of a projectile.
> 
> 
> There might be exceptions to this but I don't see any reason why Madara is one.



Base Minato easily reacts to Gudoudamas.

SM Minato gets utterly trashed by Juubidara in CQC.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

*CQC is a hole differente thing than dodging projectile or Shunshin* , 

Sasuke can easily dodge V1 Bee 's Shunshin  :


Sasuke got pierced by 4 swords in CQC against base Bee :


CQC moves are by far more complexe and impredictable , and the fiel of vision is very reduced compared to a Shunshin/Projectile . People still compare , KCM Minato lost his arm in CQC fight against Juubito and he lost hsi second arm in CQC fight against Juudara , so what ? I can't see the link between that and avoiding much faster Gudodama's or red Gai linear moves .

And yeah manga feats showed us that Gudo Damas are faster than Juubi Jins Shunshins .


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> *CQC is a hole differente thing than dodging projectile or Shunshin* ,
> 
> Sasuke can easily dodge V1 Bee 's Shunshin  :
> 
> ...



8th Gate Gai wasnt moving in his full speed there. That has been proven already, you havent refute what i wrote before.

As for Gudoudama's speed - what feats do they have to say they are faster than JJ's physical movements? Sasuke reacted to Juubito's Gudoudama, KCM Minato reacted to Juubito's Gudoudama, base Minato reacted to Juubidara's Gudoudama. Yet KCM Minato got blitzed by Juubito's attack and SM Minato got blitzed by Juubidara's attacks. If Minato could react to something which is much faster, than why he couldnt teleport away from Juubidara to prevent him from cutting his arm off? Why he couldnt escape from Juubito?


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 25, 2015)

Then at what speed was he moving 
And how did he get behind juudara by the next panel ? 

Just curious with what u think u refuted . Any scans to refute ?

Juudara opted to use goudama to stop obito from going to box land vs running at him to stop him 

That's more than enough proof


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 25, 2015)

> Then at what speed was he moving



At a far slower speed then before that 5th Step.



> And how did he get behind juudara by the next panel ?



He got there thanks to Kakashi, who made a hole in Gudoudama, so he could attack him without holding himself back.



> Just curious with what u think u refuted . Any scans to refute ?



I refuted pretty much everything you've said so far, realy. You are trying to grab a straw all the time. It is useless.



> Juudara opted to use goudama to stop obito from going to box land vs running at him to stop him



Because it is a risky way to run at them when one of them has Kamui, other has Sage Mode... It was kinda risky. But the fact is - a dude who easily reacted to Gudoudama couldnt react to Juubi Jin's striking speed, at all.



> That's more than enough proof



Which has been countered.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

StarWandered is always balblating ninsens without any proof , he has anything to say about red Gai slowing down , it's just he wants him to do so beacause .... Hm  himself he doesn't know .

Plus Juudara Gudodama's are faster than him , I already explained why , and Minato used FTG between them and red Gai , so .... This time StarWandered will talk about KCM Minato vs Juubito passage , but unfortunatly , I havs already explained why the two situation are compeletly different :

*Spoiler*: __ 



*CQC is a hole differente thing than dodging projectile or Shunshin* , 

Sasuke can easily dodge V1 Bee 's Shunshin  :


Sasuke got pierced by 4 swords in CQC against base Bee :


CQC moves are by far more complexe and impredictable , and the fiel of vision is very reduced compared to a Shunshin/Projectile . People still compare , KCM Minato lost his arm in CQC fight against Juubito and he lost hsi second arm in CQC fight against Juudara , so what ? I can't see the link between that and avoiding much faster Gudodama's or red Gai linear moves .

And yeah manga feats showed us that Gudo Damas are faster than Juubi Jins Shunshins .




Why GudoDamas are faster than Madara JJ , it's simple *why he used GudoDamas against Kakashi and Obito while he can use his own Shunshin ? *


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 25, 2015)

> StarWandered is always balblating ninsens without any proof , he has anything to say about red Gai slowing down , it's just he wants him to do so beacause .... Hm himself he doesn't know .



Not only Gaara couldnt know where both Juubidara and Gai will be after few EE steps - there was no sand near Gai before Minato used Hiraishin in order to teleport Gudoudamas away. Kakashi could react to 8th Gate Gai's speed and create a hole in Gudoudama, Rock lee in 6th Gate could react to his speed. Minato could react to 8th gate gai's speed.

All of that indicates that 8th gate gai slowed down, a lot.



> Plus Juudara Gudodama's are faster than him , I already explained why , and Minato used FTG between them and red Gai , so .... This time StarWandered will talk about KCM Minato vs Juubito passage , but unfortunatly , I havs already explained why the two situation are compeletly different :



Gudoudamas are faster than Juubi Jins, yeah? Ok, base Minato could react to Gudoudamas effortlessly with his Hiraishin and teleport them away.

But if you are right, Juubi Jins movements must be slower than Gudoudamas. If so, then there must be no problem for base Minato to teleport away from Juubidara's, or Juubito's attack with Hiraishin. But even *amped* Minato couldnt do that.



> CQC moves are by far more complexe and impredictable , and the fiel of vision is very reduced compared to a Shunshin/Projectile . People still compare , KCM Minato lost his arm in CQC fight against Juubito and he lost hsi second arm in CQC fight against Juudara , so what ? I can't see the link between that and avoiding much faster Gudodama's or red Gai linear moves .



If those CQC moves are slower than Gudoudamas, to which base Minato could easily react and use Hiraishin with such a precise, then there must be no problem to teleport away from Juubi Jins moves, which are slower than Gudoudamas. But even *amped* Minato couldnt do that. Why? because Juubi Jin's movement speed is faster than Gudoudama's speed.



> And yeah manga feats showed us that Gudo Damas are faster than Juubi Jins Shunshins .



Provide those feats then. I wanna see them.



> Why GudoDamas are faster than Madara JJ , it's simple why he used GudoDamas against Kakashi and Obito while he can use his own Shunshin ?



Coming close to them is a risky move. Especially when one of them had Juubi's chakra (Obito).

8th Gate Gai could speedblitz Juubidara. Minato doesnt stand a chance, at all.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

Judara is faster than his Truthseekers, I believe he shot them because he could fire two of them, and two slightly slower attacks are better than one of his fastest attack which would still possibly result in Obito's escape. 

As far as him using them because he didn't want to harm his Rinnegan, they're truthseekers, literally top tier offensive projectiles. They exploded, he fired truthseekers with the intention of them exploding and vaporizing Obito, who had the Rinnegan in his eye. 

Jubito is shown blowing part of his own body up with them (destroys Juubi Jin flesh), and then he's shown blocking his own exploding truthseeker delivered by Tobirama because it probably would've deleted him from existence. 

Why Kishimoto wrote that "No, Obito's still got the Rinnegan" comment is beyond me, as if Rinbo would somehow be less damaging than an exploding truthseeker which literally erases all form with a molecular destruction combination of 5 elements enhanced with Six Path Natural Energy & Chakra and an addition of Yin/Yang that probably can delete shit from existence, which is where the whole "It nullifys all Ninjutsu" thing originates and the reason why Hiruzen was gone for a shit load of time despite Edo Tensei being described as being a technique that defies the laws of nature and which has no weakness


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> That's kinda the case here tho.
> 
> I mean, Kakashi had to time use Kamui against the Gudodama but he was blitzed by JJ Madara



Can you link me the instance ? 



StarWanderer said:


> Base Minato easily reacts to Gudoudamas.
> 
> SM Minato gets utterly trashed by Juubidara in CQC.



Madara's striking speed >> Minato's striking speed. 
Also the distance is very important in every speed related issue.
I am pretty sure if the godoudama struck Minato from 50 cms when he was in mid strike he wouldn't be able to do anything as well.



hbcaptain said:


> *CQC is a hole differente thing than dodging projectile or Shunshin* ,
> 
> Sasuke can easily dodge V1 Bee 's Shunshin  :
> 
> ...



Also what he said.



hbcaptain said:


> *StarWandered is always balblating ninsens without any proof , he has anything to say about red Gai slowing down , it's just he wants him to do so beacause .... Hm  himself he doesn't know .*
> 
> Plus Juudara Gudodama's are faster than him , I already explained why , and Minato used FTG between them and red Gai , so .... This time StarWandered will talk about KCM Minato vs Juubito passage , but unfortunatly , I havs already explained why the two situation are compeletly different :
> 
> ...



Its funny because he is the same guy who fanatically claims that A was @ max speed against Madara and doesn't want to accept that it wasn't A's top speed despite being confronted by numerous counter evidence


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

> Its funny because he is the same guy who fanatically claims that A was @ max speed against Madara and doesn't want to accept that it wasn't A's top speed despite being confronted by numerous counter evidence


For the record, Grimmjow, there are more active debaters on here that believe that was V2 Ei who blitzed Madara.

So the only funny part is the fact that you still believe it was V1 despite the character's own statement that Madara could guard against his speed.

Singling him out won't get you anywhere, because he's in the majority and you're in the minority.

The court can only have one jester I guess.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Can you link me the instance ?



Kakashi vs Gudodama



Kakashi vs Juudara



I mean, you can say that Kakashi wasn't looking (and that is true), but powerscaling form JJ Obito (who blitzed both EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto) should say that wouldn't matter much.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

LOl , Kakashi was saved by 6 Gates Gai at the last moment .


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 25, 2015)

@star 
What speed . What's far lower speed , how do u scale it . And how did he go from 5th step to far lower speed in the space of time ?

He got behind juudara though if u didn't notice . So gai slowed down yet has the speed to get behind juudara ? Even before kamui made the hole gai was behind juudara 

 
So juudara who is far stronger decided to play safe ? kmt

He opted for goudama and said its faster than kamui hence him using it 

Lol ur cute *pats head *


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> LOl , Kakashi was saved by 6 Gates Gai at the last moment .


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

Sorry to tell you that , but Kakashi didn't percieve Madara's presence until his hand was already catching his eye :


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Sorry to tell you that , but Kakashi didn't percieve Madara's presence until his hand was already catching his eye :





Hachibi said:


> I mean, you can say that Kakashi wasn't looking (and that is true), but powerscaling form JJ Obito (who blitzed both EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto) should say that wouldn't matter much.



Already talked about this.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

And so since you didn"t prove anything then GudoDamas are faster , Kakashi was already seeing throught  GudoDamas at 70m further not 0.5cm like Juudara .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And so since you didn"t prove anything then GudoDamas are faster , *Kakashi was already seeing throught  GudoDamas at 70m further not 0.5cm like Juudara *.



Wat?

You want another exemple, ok then:

Tobirama vs Gudodama



Tobirama vs JJ Obito



Gated Lee vs Gudodama



Gated Gai (basically better Lee in every single way) vs JJ Madara


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

You don't care about :
-Distance .
-GudoDama's explosion speed .
-GudoDama's changing form speed .
-FTG activation speed .
-raw moves speed 
..........


Go read the manga , and use your brain just a little .


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 25, 2015)

How are Gudoudama's faster then the Juubi Jins when they have been intercepted, teleported, blocked by a warn out Obito while the Jins have been able to man handle the fastest shinobis(bar Gai) with realitive ease in CQC...


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

Same thing for you :

You don't care about :
-Distance .
-GudoDama's explosion speed .
-GudoDama's changing form speed .
-FTG activation speed .
-raw moves speed 
..........


Go read the manga , and use your brain just a little .


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 25, 2015)

Now the TSB are faster than the Juubi Jins? 

6th gated Lee > 2nd Gated Lee > 2nd Gated Gai > TSB > 8th Gated Gai > Juudara

Because plot doesn't exist when we want our fav. char to be the very best, that no one ever was.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> -Distance .



You mean that one distance that mean fuck all to the JJ?



> -GudoDama's explosion speed .



And?



> -GudoDama's changing form speed .



Please tell me when the Gudodama's changing form speed is revelant?



> -FTG activation speed .
> -raw moves speed



Wat?




> Go read the manga , and use your brain just a little .



If I gained 1$ for everytime you say "go read the manga", I would be rich.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> 6th gated Lee > 2nd Gated Lee > 2nd Gated Gai > TSB > 8th Gated Gai > Juudara


You don't care about time starting and distance . Plus it wasn't2nd Gated Gai but 5 gated .


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 25, 2015)

3rd gate and above erases the pupils on the eye. When Gai had his pupils and hair down. It was clearly a lower gate.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

It doesn't change the fact that you don't care about distance and time starting . And so , you are saying absurd things .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> It doesn't change the fact that you don't care about distance and time starting . And so , you are saying absurd things .



What time starting?

We only see Gated Gai save Kakashi form basically nowhere.


Also distance isn't even that big.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> It doesn't change the fact that you don't care about distance and time starting . And so , you are saying absurd things .



What distance? ?

Gai being farther than the TSB balls from Kakashi? 1 meter, 100 meters, 1000 kilometers. If Gai was farther than them, he outpaced them.

Go home HB captain, you're drunk.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

So you read in Kishis head , and you know Gai started Shunshinning just when GudoDama's were near Kakashi looooooool ,


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Kakashi vs Gudodama
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They are completely different. 

Godoudama is a projectile with a linear trajectory shot from a considerable distance.
Madara was arms reach away from Kakashi when Kakashi spotted him.

It is always easier to react to linear attacks if you can see them coming from a distance. As Sasuke noted against B.



DaVizWiz said:


> For the record, Grimmjow, there are more active debaters on here that believe that was V2 Ei who blitzed Madara.
> 
> So the only funny part is the fact that you still believe it was V1 despite the character's own statement that Madara could guard against his speed.
> 
> ...



I'm the minority ? 



Its only you and him who zealously claim that A was @ his top speed.
I am not even mentioning other utterly ridiculous claims like living Madara being as fast as V2 A.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> So you read in Kishis head , and you know Gai started Shunshinning just when GudoDama's were near Kakashi looooooool ,



What proof do you have that Gai _didn't_ shunshin before the Gudodama was near Kakashi?

Also stop going "looooooooool", it's not really mature.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 25, 2015)

It seems he doesn't understand how that really works. Or he plays he doesn't.

If Gai used shunshin after the TSB, and the TSB balls were closer to Kakashi than Gai was. What more do someone need? The balls were closer to Kakashi. Gai could've began to move one day before. But we have a panel with the TSB being extremely close to Kakashi, and Gai nowhere to be seen, wich means he was farther than the black balls.

So in the end, Gai was farther and had to outpace the TSB.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> What proof do you have that Gai didn't shunshin before the Gudodama was near Kakashi?


So you have to chose between the very logical :
-He begans Shunshinning before GudoDamas began moving and in much much closer distance , even times smaller and blitz it in time 

And The very absurd :
-Gai just began Shunshinning while GudoDama was almost touching Kakashi .

Apparently you always choose the absurd statement as always .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They are completely different.
> 
> Godoudama is a projectile with a linear trajectory shot from a considerable distance.
> Madara was arms reach away from Kakashi when Kakashi spotted him.
> ...



Well, yeah. But like I said, even if Kakashi didn't look away, he would still have being blitzed due to JJ Obito's speed feats (which JJ Madara can replicate due to being superior to him).


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> Well, yeah. But like I said, even if Kakashi didn't look away, he would still have being blitzed due to JJ Obito's speed feats (which JJ Madara can replicate due to being superior to him).


And what's JJ Obito speed feats against Kakashi .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> So you have to chose between the very logical :
> -He begans Shunshinning before GudoDamas began moving and in much much closer distance , even times smaller and blitz it in time
> 
> And The very absurd :
> -Gai just began Shunshinning while GudoDama was almost touching Kakashi .



Oh please. "logic" doesn't exist in this manga. Everything there happen because Kishi wrote it that way, not because so guys like us want something to happen.

Plus the "logical" thing is funny coming form you since you said that KCM Minato > Juubito in speed because of the "!" 



> Apparently you always choose the absurd statement as always .



Please, we all know that it's absurd since it doesn't go well with your vision of the manga.

I couldn't care less that Gated Gai is > Gudodama or the opposite, but what you're saying is pure speculation.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And what's JJ Obito speed feats against Kakashi .



You mean guys faster/having better reaction than Kakashi? Blitzing them when he wanted to.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> I couldn't care less that Gated Gai is > Gudodama or the opposite, but what you're saying is pure speculation.


Apparently you don't want to change your mind , and accept logical statements .




> Oh please. "logic" doesn't exist in this manga. Everything there happen because Kishi wrote it that way, not because so guys like us want something to happen.


So we stop heare , since Kishi just chose to speed up or slowing his characters at any time he wants , then why losing time discussing about mangas feats ....




> Plus the "logical" thing is funny coming form you since you said that KCM Minato > Juubito in speed because of the "!"


No , I don't think so , it's just to show you by a very simplist and absurd thinking we can also conclude that KCM Minato is faster than Juubito .




> You mean guys faster/having better reaction than Kakashi? Blitzing them when he wanted to.


The is a very huge difference between raw moves speed and Jutsu's speed , and all depend greatly on distance so ....


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

> I'm the minority ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


12 active debaters for V2, majority:
>ARGUS
>Rocky
>DaVizWiz
>Starwanderer
>ATastyMuffin
>Alex Payne
>Ryuzaki
>Bonly
>t0xeus
>LostSelf
>Raikiri19
>Hachibi (admission in this thread)

This thread proves everyone bar Ryuzaki & Bonly agree it was V2, though I personally know Ryu & Bonly do



Raikiri19's admission on this page: 

From what I know having debated this for awhile, you have on your side:

4 active debaters for V1, minority:
>Hussain (super fanboy, rarely taken seriously)
>Nikushima (super fanboy, rarely taken seriously)
>RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (minor fanboy, taken somewhat seriously)
>You (super fanboy, rarely taken seriously especially in any Itachi related threads due to ongoing delusional one-sided bromance)

Nice company you've got there btw.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> 11 active debaters for V2:
> >ARGUS
> >Rocky
> >DaVizWiz
> ...



You have forgotten me.

I feel injured


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Apparently you don't want to change your mind , and accept logical statements .



What logical statement?
Because it shatter the "TSB>JJ in speed" argument?



> So we stop heare , since Kishi just chose to speed up or slowing his characters at any time he wants , then why losing time discussing about mangas feats ....



Hussain plz, that's not how it work.

Your argument that Gai shunshin'd multiple time before he could reach the Gudodama is baseless.

Especially since Gated Lee replicated a similar feat latter on.



> No , I don't think so , it's just to show you by a very simplist and absurd thinking we can also conclude that KCM Minato is faster than Juubito


 .

Yes, because it's totally comparable 




> The is a very huge difference between raw moves speed and Jutsu's speed , and all depend greatly on distance so ....



What are you talking about?

Kakashi's Kamui still need him to react, like when he warped Minato's Rasengan.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

I didn't know which one you were for, V2 I assume?


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I didn't know which one you were for, V2 I assume?



Yes. Altho i should admit that I thought this was V1 before rereading that part.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 26, 2015)

> Madara's striking speed >> Minato's striking speed.
> Also the distance is very important in every speed related issue.
> I am pretty sure if the godoudama struck Minato from 50 cms when he was in mid strike he wouldn't be able to do anything as well.



How's the distance important in this case? He used Hiraishin to teleport in front of Gudoudamas and teleport with them away, when they were in a  range from him. He couldnt teleport away from Juubidara's "slower" attacks, although Juubidara was in his LoS, although Minato was a sensor, although he was amped in pretty much everything due to active Sage Mode. 

Gudoudamas arent as fast as both Juubidara and Juubito.



> What speed . What's far lower speed , how do u scale it . And how did he go from 5th step to far lower speed in the space of time ?



I scale that according to facts from manga. He slowed down, a lot. 

He could run on air, i dont think there would be any problem for him to slow down, especially when his opponent is protected by a thing he cant touch.



> He got behind juudara though if u didn't notice . So gai slowed down yet has the speed to get behind juudara ? Even before kamui made the hole gai was behind juudara



Juubidara was "back-to-face" from the start, if you havent noticed.

I will provide a scan to prove that.





> So juudara who is far stronger decided to play safe ? kmt



He used Gudoudama to protect himself. How does that refute anything?



> He opted for goudama and said its faster than kamui hence him using it
> 
> Lol ur cute *pats head *


*
And? *


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> How's the distance important in this case? He used Hiraishin to teleport in front of Gudoudamas and teleport with them away, when they were in a  range from him.



Distance is always important. Minato timed his interception, thats all. He didn't decide to teleport in the spur of a moment when godoudama was inches away from Gai. 



> He couldnt teleport away from Juubidara's "slower" attacks, although Juubidara was in his LoS, although Minato was a sensor, although he was amped in pretty much everything due to active Sage Mode.


Again Minato struck Madara and Madara struck faster. Madara's striking speed(as well as whole body speed) is fuckloads faster than Minato's. Minato was counter hit. It is always harder to perform 2 actions at once than just perform one. In other words, striking and avoiding an attack is almost impossible. You have to chose to do one of them.

In the case of Godoudama, Minato knew Madara would fire them at Gai with a linear trajectory and he intercepted them from a considerable distance.
If that is an issue, then you can argue that Gaara, Kakashi and Lee all have the speed necessary to react to Godoudama and Gai considering they were all able to keep up with both.
Interception feats are hardly reliable and are most of the times bullshit, especially when it comes to speed so I wouldn't attempt to use them as any form of argument.



> > Gudoudamas arent as fast as both Juubidara and Juubito.


There is no decisive evidence, but the fact that Madara attemted to use Godoudama on Kakashi & Obito is in favor of Godoudama being faster.
Otherwise if Madara was significantly faster, then he would just shunshin blitz both of them(or one of them which would also work).


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Distance is always important. Minato timed his interception, thats all. He didn't decide to teleport in the spur of a moment when godoudama was inches away from Gai.
> 
> 
> Again Minato struck Madara and Madara struck faster. Madara's striking speed(as well as whole body speed) is fuckloads faster than Minato's. Minato was counter hit. It is always harder to perform 2 actions at once than just perform one. In other words, striking and avoiding an attack is almost impossible. You have to chose to do one of them.
> ...



PERFECT POST! is all there is to say


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 26, 2015)

if lower gate gai or lee faster than goudama then haku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>kakashi speed yet somehow said haku cant blitz KN0 genin naruto 

gotta love interception feats


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2015)

> Distance is always important. Minato timed his interception, thats all. He didn't decide to teleport in the spur of a moment when godoudama was inches away from Gai.



And he couldnt time his interception against slower attacks by teleporting away? That doesnt make sense, at all. Especially when he could react to those Gudoudamas within such a short range.



> Again Minato struck Madara and Madara struck faster. Madara's striking speed(as well as whole body speed) is fuckloads faster than Minato's. Minato was counter hit. It is always harder to perform 2 actions at once than just perform one. In other words, striking and avoiding an attack is almost impossible. You have to chose to do one of them.



That doesnt matter. Hiraishin requires a mere thought, Minato was a sensor, Juubidara was in his LoS and nothing could stop him from teleporting away to prevent Juubidara tearing his another arm off. Yes, Minato was trying to hit him, but it is easy to activate Hiraishin even when you attack, especially when you can see enemy's movements and sense them. He attacks Juubidara, Juubidara counter-attacks, Minato teleports away - that's it. Plus, in that instance, Minato was amped by Sage Mode. But he never did that. He couldnt teleport away even after Juubidara teared his arm off to prevent Juubidara from dealing even more damage, or destroying him completely by Gudoudama, which can dispell Edo Tensei.

Striking and avoiding attack at the same time is impossible when we are talking about physically avoiding an attack. This case is different.



> In the case of Godoudama, Minato knew Madara would fire them at Gai with a linear trajectory and he intercepted them from a considerable distance.
> If that is an issue, then you can argue that Gaara, Kakashi and Lee all have the speed necessary to react to Godoudama and Gai considering they were all able to keep up with both.
> Interception feats are hardly reliable and are most of the times bullshit, especially when it comes to speed so I wouldn't attempt to use them as any form of argument.



Yet couldnt intercept slower Juubidara's movements, although he sould see them as well and sense them, especially when they are slower than Gudoudama.

Lee, kakashi and Gaara cant be any close to 8th Gate Gai's speed. Logically, they shouldnt be able to react to him, at all. But all of them could react in that instance.



> There is no decisive evidence, but the fact that Madara attemted to use Godoudama on Kakashi & Obito is in favor of Godoudama being faster.
> Otherwise if Madara was significantly faster, then he would just shunshin blitz both of them(or one of them which would also work).



It was a risky move to get into a close distance to them, dont you think?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> And he couldnt time his interception against slower attacks by teleporting away? That doesnt make sense, at all. Especially when he could react to those Gudoudamas within such a short range.


Which slower attacks ? 




> That doesnt matter.


Yes It does. If you actually think that, this shows you have no idea what you are talking about.



> Hiraishin requires a mere thought, Minato was a sensor, Juubidara was in his LoS and nothing could stop him from teleporting away to prevent Juubidara tearing his another arm off. Yes, Minato was trying to hit him, but it is easy to activate Hiraishin even when you attack, especially when you can see enemy's movements and sense them. He attacks Juubidara, Juubidara counter-attacks, Minato teleports away - that's it. Plus, in that instance, Minato was amped by Sage Mode. But he never did that. He couldnt teleport away even after Juubidara teared his arm off to prevent Juubidara from dealing even more damage, or destroying him completely by Gudoudama, which can dispell Edo Tensei.


You did't read my post.

Performing two actions at once is almost impossible. In other words you can't attack and defend at the same time(except in the case of techniques like Shinra tensei which can both attack and defend), you have to do them consecutively.
Minato got hit during mid strike, so he was already performing 1 action and couldn't perform another one, aka he was preoccupied.



> Striking and avoiding attack at the same time is impossible when we are talking about physically avoiding an attack. This case is different.


No I am talking in general.
Minato's mind was occupied with the thought of striking Madara and his brain was performing the necessary tasks for him to execute that action and he was intercepted by an action he wasn't anticipating.

Against Godoudama, Minato was waiting for it. So he was anticipating what was going to happen and he was ready for it.

You can't compare two situations.

You would have an argument  only if Minato tried to attack Madara, and Madara attacked him with Godoudama from point blank range and Minato evaded it. 



> Yet couldnt intercept slower Juubidara's movements, although he sould see them as well and sense them, especially when they are slower than Gudoudama.


You are dense as a brick.

Few points to consider ; 

- Minato wasn't preoccupied when he intercepted Godoudama from a considerable distance. His whole attention and capacity was focused on a single task void of any distractions.
- Minato was preoccupied when he was struck by Madara from point blank range.
- It is always easier to track and react to linear projectiles coming further away than punches and kicks coming from a point blank range especially if you aren't preoccupied.

The two aren't even comparable situations. You can't draw a conclusion from these instances alone.



> Lee, kakashi and Gaara cant be any close to 8th Gate Gai's speed. Logically, they shouldnt be able to react to him, at all. But all of them could react in that instance.


Ok so you agree that interception feats are bullshit ?
I knew you would come around.



> It was a risky move to get into a close distance to them, dont you think?



No.

This is the guy who had a smile on his face when he took a shitton of beating from a 8th gate user. He doesn't care about risks(and what risks can Kakashi and half dead obito could pose to him more than 8 gated Gai ?)
Try to find a better excuse.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 27, 2015)

I think Madara _clearly_ explained why he used the TSB against Obito and Kakashi. Limbo could've killed them, and the other would've just warped away while one tries to distract Madara.

The TSB can be better than Madara needing to attack two people at the same time. But i don't think are faster than him. His Limbo had Madara's speed, if i'm not mistaken, and the first thing he thought of using was that. Not the TSB.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 27, 2015)

Euuuuuh , no limbo is just a clone , he can control him and he has arms and hands to catch and immobilize his oppenents , GudoDamas are by far more dangerous than him . *Plus he could simply use Shunshin if he was faster why he didn't simply use it ? I think you don't have an answer to that .*


----------



## Kai (Sep 27, 2015)

I'm not understanding these conclusions regarding Hiraishin and Gai's 8th Gate speed, let alone the fact there exists conclusions to be drawn at all.

Minato timed his Hiraishin at the right moment. He, along with Gaara, Kakashi, and Lee planned this gambit out. It was according to proper strategy and timing to appear at the right interval.

Thus Kishimoto had their plan work, since he had them talking about it. It had absolutely nothing to do with comparing Hiraishin with Gai's speed - this is far from a neutral context.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 27, 2015)

He opted for limbo cuz it would be impossible them to dodge . Not cuz of its speed . Notice after he said obito has the rinnegan . That wouldn't Matter if limbo could out speed them regardless


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 27, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Euuuuuh , no limbo is just a clone , he can control him and he has arms and hands to catch and immobilize his oppenents , GudoDamas are by far more dangerous than him . *Plus he could simply use Shunshin if he was faster why he didn't simply use it ? I think you don't have an answer to that .*



Madara said Limbo wasn't safe. And it was the first thing he opted. And he didn't say Obito would counter Limbo. The very reason he didn't use Limbo was because he could destroy the Rinnegan.

All your questions were explained in clear by Madara there. Why he used the TSB balls and not any other attack. Not because "Oh my, TSB are faster than me". This is just assumption made without any proof to back it up.

Ask him, not me.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 28, 2015)

So omyoton that eradicates everything won't destroy the rinnegan ??? It's simple limbo would have been unavoidable had it not been for rinnegan 

He never suggested limbo could be faster . Also at that point he could only create one clone of himself . So that would certainly be slower 

TSB was not only faster it's more practical


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 28, 2015)

I suppose Ringa is Limbo. And if that's so, Madara said so himself. Argue with him.


----------



## Zef (Sep 28, 2015)

I don't think anyone listed in the OP can do it.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I suppose Ringa is Limbo. And if that's so, Madara said so himself. Argue with him.



If it is limbo then he was referring to its undetectability, because he later on mentions Obito's rinnegan and says "better avoid to it". 

If it was a metter of speed, then whether Obito could see it or not wouldn't be an issue, as both Kakashi and Obito could clearly see the Godoudama and he still used it.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 29, 2015)

Even if Obito could see the Limbo or not, Madara outright claimed Limbo to be faster than TSB there. And that's enough to assume he is faster as well.

However, i seriously doubt it was because Obito could see it. He was a walking corpe only there because of Zetsu. What would he have done to prevent it? If Limbo's faster than TSB like Madara said, Obito seeing it or not wouldn't have made a difference.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 29, 2015)

so why didnt he use it? 

by ur claim 
1) its faster 
2) only one of the 2 opponents can see it

why not opt for it if those 2 statements are true?


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 29, 2015)

I don't know and i don't care. He cannonically said is faster. The reasons why he didn't use it are not my problem.

Madara's argument holds more power than ours here.

I don't claim it's faster. Madara himself said it's faster. So are we going to say Madara was lying to himself?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Even if Obito could see the Limbo or not, Madara outright claimed Limbo to be faster than TSB there. And that's enough to assume he is faster as well.
> 
> However, i seriously doubt it was because Obito could see it. He was a walking corpe only there because of Zetsu. What would he have done to prevent it? If Limbo's faster than TSB like Madara said, Obito seeing it or not wouldn't have made a difference.



No he didn't say that.
He said if he used Limbo it'd be faster. "It" as in his objective.

if Limbo could close in without getting detected then they wouldn't be able to do much about it.
But then Madara dismissed the thought because Obito could react if he saw limbo coming because he had the Rinnegan.

The latter part of your post doesn't make much sense, because Madara himself didn't decide to use that technique solely because Obito had the Rinnegan.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 29, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No he didn't say that.
> He said if he used Limbo it'd be faster. "It" as in his objective.
> 
> if Limbo could close in without getting detected then they wouldn't be able to do much about it.
> ...




I could use Ringa, it'd be faster sounds like the fastest method to be used for me, pllus, beating TSB in speed.

Talking as an objetive doesn't change the outcome. He said it'd reach his target before Obito and Kakashi finished Kamui. The TSB had the same target. Or are you going to tell me that Kakashi can intercept Juudara's speed throwing a kunai? Or weakened Obito can counter Madara's speed like this?:



I'd be faster clearly means that his Limbo is faster than the TSB. Otherwise, he would've just opted for it without thinking about his Limbo.

Obito getting in front of Kakashi to help him battle a Limbo clone, when they instantly slapped away Bijuus is no logical at all. But then again, this doesn't matter.

He said Limbo's faster. And if he said that Limbo would be faster, why would he just not use it? I mean, it's not like TSB are invisible either.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2015)

Intercepting them with limbo would be the faster method because normally it can't be detected. You can't react to something you can't see.
But then he took Obito's Rinnegan into consideration and dismissed the thought.

It makes absolutely no sense for him to use a slower method on purpose when time was of the essence.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 29, 2015)

Obito's Rinnegan can't see it, only Sasuke's 9-toma ShariRinnegan has displayed this ability. That is the Rinnegan that is used by Kaguya & her stronger form: Juubi. It's clearly a transcended Rinnegan. 

Nothing implied he can see it, though it doesn't matter since TSB are clearly visible to both Kakashi & Obito, and everyfuckingoneelse there- then he claimed Limbo/Rinbo was faster than TSB, so he had no fucking reason to use it over Rinbo/Limbo whatsoever other than it can target them both at virtually the same time, which also didn't matter. 

The only logical assumption is the author again nerfed Madara for no reason to ensure he didn't kill both of them in one panel, he could've easily shot a TSB at Obito and activated Rinbo to kill Kakashi, who cannot see it, at the same time. We know for a fact that the TSB would've exploded on Obito's position, so blocking/deflecting it wouldn't have been an option, and it's clear one Kamui wasn't saving him, as Kakashi would've been dead before the TSB reached Obito, so there's no double Kamui there.


----------



## ARGUS (Sep 29, 2015)

Did someone seriously say TSB are faster than Limbo when Madara himself said limbo is faster?
Even if you ignore that for some dumb reason it's still nonsense 
since guy outran and moved kakashi away from them from a distance where he wasn't even seen 

Last time I checked JJ Madara is much much faster than any guy w/o 8th gate. And limbo has the same physical abilities as the original so no 
Limbo Is much faster 

Madara not using against obito is a shitty excuse to say otherwise since his reasoning has nothing to do with speed based on his statement before. And Based on the fact that he needs obito for his rinnegan.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Obito's Rinnegan can't see it, only Sasuke's 9-toma ShariRinnegan has displayed this ability. That is the Rinnegan that is used by Kaguya & her stronger form: Juubi. It's clearly a transcended Rinnegan.
> 
> Nothing implied he can see it, though it doesn't matter since TSB are clearly visible to both Kakashi & Obito, and everyfuckingoneelse there- then he claimed Limbo/Rinbo was faster than TSB, so he had no fucking reason to use it over Rinbo/Limbo whatsoever other than it can target them both at virtually the same time, which also didn't matter.
> 
> The only logical assumption is the author again nerfed Madara for no reason to ensure he didn't kill both of them in one panel, he could've easily shot a TSB at Obito and activated Rinbo to kill Kakashi, who cannot see it, at the same time. We know for a fact that the TSB would've exploded on Obito's position, so blocking/deflecting it wouldn't have been an option, and it's clear one Kamui wasn't saving him, as Kakashi would've been dead before the TSB reached Obito, so there's no double Kamui there.



So why did juudara mention obito rinnegan when he mentions limbo ? 

Madara rinnegan looks exactly like the one obito had and he could see and use limbo

Obito rinnegan eye would see it quite obviously


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 30, 2015)

Because he wanted to obtain it from Obito and thought Limbo would risk it, which doesn't make sense considering he shot an explosion TSB at him anyway, but don't blame me blame the author. Madara apparently thought attacking them both with TSB at the same time was better than attacking one of them with limbo 

I really do laugh at the notion of Nagato perceiving Limbo though

Really I look it as the same thing as Rikudo Sage Mode, which allowed Naruto to sense the clone. Highly doubtful conventional Sage Mode would've been able to sense it, certainly no that well. 

There should be no difference with Sasuke's Rinnegan in comparison to Madara's Rinnegan. Sasuke's is superior, especially when the Rinnegan isn't in Madara's eye socket, which was proven to be the case when Nagato & Obito could not use limbo clones, only Madara could. They don't have both Indra & Ashura's DNA, they simply cannot use it as well as someone who is walking Six Path power.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 30, 2015)

Because he wanted to obtain it from Obito and thought Limbo would risk it, which doesn't make sense considering he shot an explosion TSB at him anyway, but don't blame me blame the author. Madara apparently thought attacking them both with TSB at the same time was better than attacking one of them with limbo 

I really do laugh at the notion of Nagato perceiving Limbo though

Really I look it as the same thing as Rikudo Sage Mode, which allowed Naruto to sense the clone. Highly doubtful conventional Sage Mode would've been able to sense it, certainly not that well. 

There should be no difference when we apply that same concept to Sasuke's Rinnegan in comparison to Madara's Rinnegan inside someone else. Sasuke's is superior even when they're in Madara's eyesockets, and when the Rinnegan isn't in Madara's eye socket, which was proven to be the case when Nagato & Obito, limbo cannot be used. Shit, Obito could only use Gedo Path. 

They don't have both Indra & Ashura's DNA, they simply cannot use it as well as someone who is a poor man's Hagoromo (Madara), even while being a Juubi Jinchuriki (Obito) had nothing to show for his Rinnegan, he was all Yang (body durability, speed, flight, goudama, sensing, regeneration). Dude literally just needed it to become a Juubi Jin to acquire the yang & chakra benefits. 

Nagato might have done better with the Rinnegan as a Juubi Jin, but that wouldn't even make sense, his entire lineage is yang based (Uzuamki -> Senju) if anything Obito should've been the one to excel with the 6 paths & the closest capable to using Limbo (Uchiha -> Yin), but he couldn't do it.

Madara is simply the pinnacle of Yin & Yang possessing the DNA of both Indra (Hagoromo's eyes-> Yin) & Ashura (Hagoromo's body-> Yang), which is the reason why I believe he's the only one capable of using Limbo unless Yin Sasuke were to transplant the eye, he has a super influx of Yin power he would definitely be able to control and use it at full capacity regardless of lacking Yang (Naruto's DNA). 

Let me clear by saying if you cannot use the technique (Limbo-> Only Yin/Yang Madara was capable), I see no reason to suggest you can see the technique while it's being used, this pertains to Obito especially- who only had the talent to use Gedo Path.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 30, 2015)

I understand davizwiz
But obito had So6p power when juudara mentions obito rinnegan as a deterrent to using limbo 
Isn't that why he could counter TSB

Then again limbo being faster to strike doesn't mean juudara himself is faster in anyway 

Since again ST would be a faster method of killing someone than say susanoo arrow however doesn't mean ST travels faster 

It's just that it simply can't be avoided in any case


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 30, 2015)

We have to do manga reading sessions for some of the posters here.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Intercepting them with limbo would be the faster method because normally it can't be detected. You can't react to something you can't see.
> But then he took Obito's Rinnegan into consideration and dismissed the thought.
> 
> It makes absolutely no sense for him to use a slower method on purpose when time was of the essence.



Not being detected has nothing to do with being faster. Kakashi couldn't see it, so Madara could've killed Kakashi with Limbo and goodbye double Kamui.

To believe the TSB are faster, you should dismiss Madara's own admission talking about speed of the attack, not how fast it would be to kill them, considering that you're no certain if Madara said that because Obito could see it or because it was more risky than using TSB against Obito.

And of course, you have to believe that Obito can counter attack Madara with his staff, when he barely can do a thing and Kakashi can keep up and throw a Kunai against Madara's speed.

But that's way much more ilogical than Madara not using Limbo on them. So i'd rather go with a straight admission when looking for an attack to take them down. "Limbo would be faster".


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 30, 2015)

being undecteable has everything to do with being a faster method of killing someone 

since the person regardless of their stats cant react at all 

while depending on the person level it doesnt matter how fast the attack is they will be able to defend themselves

eg: minato can hirashin away from hirudora which has better speed feats and hype than ST. ST however crushes him everytime

obito did block TSB though so in effect he did block madara attack. 

i just need that proof that a clone in another dimension speed would mean madara himself can move or would have moved at those speeds. 

does he not project the clones and then it comes back to him. cuz with both eyes he can use 4 limbos and kill 4 people. alot quicker than if he proceeds to attack them himself


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 30, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Not being detected has nothing to do with being faster. Kakashi couldn't see it, so Madara could've killed Kakashi with Limbo and goodbye double Kamui.



Killing Kakashi doesn't stop Obito from warping away though.



> To believe the TSB are faster, you should dismiss Madara's own admission talking about speed of the attack, not how fast it would be to kill them, considering that you're no certain if Madara said that because Obito could see it or because it was more risky than using TSB against Obito.



But Madara didn't say anything about the speed of the attack.

He thought of a scenario where he would attack Kakashi or Obito and concluded that it would fail because both scenarios resulted in Obito warping away.

Then he said "I could use limbo and it would be faster"
Faster compared to what ? 
Most likely compared to the scenario he thought earlier. 



> And of course, you have to believe that Obito can counter attack Madara with his staff, when he barely can do a thing and Kakashi can keep up and throw a Kunai against Madara's speed.
> 
> But that's way much more ilogical than Madara not using Limbo on them. So i'd rather go with a straight admission when looking for an attack to take them down. "Limbo would be faster".



Again, Madara never said Limbo was his fastest attack or anything along those lines.

What you are saying makes no sense, because in the scenario Madara thought earlier, he imagined both Kakashi and Obito being able to hold him off for a brief moment for Kamui to be used.
*That means Madara thought both Obito and Kakashi would be able to react to his own speed.* To expand more on that, Madara thought* if he physically engaged them, it wouldn't be fast enough *because either one of them would hold him off while Obito goes to the other dimension.

Limbo is a clone. So at the very best case, it should have identical speed to Madara.
So with what Madara thought earlier in mind, why would Kakashi or Obito fail to react to Limbo when they are perfectly capable of reacting to Madara himself ?


----------



## StarWanderer (Oct 6, 2015)

It seems you dont read my posts attentively. That's alright. 



> You did't read my post.
> 
> Performing two actions at once is almost impossible. In other words you can't attack and defend at the same time(except in the case of techniques like Shinra tensei which can both attack and defend), you have to do them consecutively.
> Minato got hit during mid strike, so he was already performing 1 action and couldn't perform another one, aka he was preoccupied.



He could very well mentally activate Hiraishin to escape either Juubito, or Juubidara. Nothing he did there could prevent him from doing that, especially when he is a sensor. Plus, he wasnt attacking Juubito when he cut off his arm - his attack was blocked. He wasnt preoccupied. Could teleport away Gudoudamas just in time, yet cant teleport away from Juubito's attacks? 



> No I am talking in general.
> Minato's mind was occupied with the thought of striking Madara and his brain was performing the necessary tasks for him to execute that action and he was intercepted by an action he wasn't anticipating.
> 
> Against Godoudama, Minato was waiting for it. So he was anticipating what was going to happen and he was ready for it.
> ...



He was a sensor, so he could sense everything Juubidara does. He could activate Hiraishin in order to escape Juubidara at that time. His brain is occupied? It's not as soon as Minato recognises Juubidara's movements and... escapes? No, he couldnt escape. And he couldnt escape Juubito when his brain wasnt preoccupied. Your arguement has been broken already.



> You are dense as a brick.
> 
> Few points to consider ;
> 
> ...



Yet Juubito's situation doesnt fit your arguement. read what i wrote above.



> Ok so you agree that interception feats are bullshit ?
> I knew you would come around.



You dont get it, yeah?

Kakashi could react to 8th Gate Gai's speed and create Kamui before Gai got close to Juubidara from what distance - 10-20 meters? That must be impossible for Kakashi, because Gai could speedblitz Juubidara with his speed.

Gaara's sand moved faster than 8th Gate Gai.

And Lee doesnt have any feats to suggest that he can have such a timing with his kunai against someone who could speedblitz Juubidara.



> No.
> 
> This is the guy who had a smile on his face when he took a shitton of beating from a 8th gate user. He doesn't care about risks(and what risks can Kakashi and half dead obito could pose to him more than 8 gated Gai ?)
> Try to find a better excuse.



He does, that is why he opted to protect himself with Gudoudama in a fight against 8th Gate Gai. 

What threat? Lets say - Kamui inprisonment.

Plus, Juubito's case proves that Gudoudama's movement speed is slower than Juubi Jins movement speed.


----------

