# Lucifer Morningstar (DC) vs Marvel



## Shazam (Mar 27, 2018)

Can he solo the Marvel Verse?


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## HouseScarlet (Mar 27, 2018)

Considering that Marvel has a true omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent character... No.

EDIT: Not sure where Lucy stands, but the likes of Pre-Retcon Beyonder, The Beyonder, God-Emperor Doom, LT, ect would probably beat him if my knowledge isn't as outdated as a typewriter.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 27, 2018)

HouseScarlet said:


> Considering that Marvel has a true omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent character... No.
> 
> EDIT: Not sure where Lucy stands, but the likes of Pre-Retcon Beyonder, The Beyonder, God-Emperor Doom, LT, ect would probably beat him if my knowledge isn't as outdated as a typewriter.


Well Amp is doing a tier revision so to figure out where each one stands would require evaluating each one in aleph sets.


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## Shazam (Mar 27, 2018)

@HouseScarlet Lucifer and Michael were the ones who created the DC Universe under the instruction of "God". He existed before the DC verse and existed in the void outside all creation


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## HouseScarlet (Mar 27, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Well Amp is doing a tier revision so to figure out where each one stands would require evaluating each one in aleph sets.



Give me a brief explanation of aleph sets; I've heard you mention them early. 

And do they kill giant, yellow heads...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 27, 2018)

HouseScarlet said:


> Give me a brief explanation of aleph sets; I've heard you mention them early.


Well basically an aleph set is one set of infinity. For an example, let’s say Floor 1 of a motel is Aleph-Null. But when you go up to Floor 2, it is infinitely bigger than the previous Floor. And it goes on and on until you hit Floor ∞.

You’d think that would be the limit but fiction gonna fiction and give us levels above that. In the case of fictions like Marvel, DC, Cthulhu Mythos, etc. there are people above Level ∞ somehow. Which is where analyzing the levels above Level ∞ come in hand with characters like LT or Lucifer Morningstar.


HouseScarlet said:


> And do they kill giant, yellow heads...


Possibly


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## HouseScarlet (Mar 27, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Well basically an aleph set is one set of infinity. For an example, let’s say Floor 1 of a motel is Aleph-Null. But when you go up to Floor 2, it is infinitely bigger than the previous Floor. And it goes on and on until you hit Floor ∞.
> 
> You’d think that would be the limit but fiction gonna fiction and give us levels above that. In the case of fictions like Marvel, DC, Cthulhu Mythos, etc. there are people above Level ∞ somehow. Which is where analyzing the levels above Level ∞ come in hand with characters like LT or Lucifer Morningstar.
> 
> Possibly



Makes me figure that the Amala Universe would qualify for such a principle when it's essentially an infinite megaverse with an apparent infinite void outside or something.


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## Nep Heart (Mar 27, 2018)

Lucifer takes out a large chunk of Marvel, but top tiers are gonna smack him down otherwise.


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## Shazam (Mar 27, 2018)

Ampchu said:


> Lucifer takes out a large chunk of Marvel, but top tiers are gonna smack him down otherwise.



Who are the top tiers that beats LM?


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## Sigismund (Mar 27, 2018)

jnikools said:


> Who are the top tiers that beats LM?


True Body TLT, TOAA, Pre Retconn Beyonder, Pre Retcon MM


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## Nep Heart (Mar 27, 2018)

Nah, Lucifer mollywhops both Beyonder and Molecule Man.


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## Sigismund (Mar 27, 2018)

Ampchu said:


> Nah, Lucifer mollywhops both Beyonder and Molecule Man.


So just TOAA then?  TBTLT wasn't far above PR beyonder, as he was killed by 3 of them


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## Nep Heart (Mar 27, 2018)

ssjjshawn said:


> So just TOAA then?  TBTLT wasn't far above PR beyonder, as he was killed by 3 of them



 It's more like PR Beyonder is excessively overhyped and even wanked quite a bit. He's ridiculously powerful, but not to the degree some people claim he is. @Imakarum Mirabilis could tell you too.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 27, 2018)

ssjjshawn said:


> So just TOAA then?  TBTLT wasn't far above PR beyonder, as he was killed by 3 of them


 Frankly that was bullshit and the start of Jobber Tribunal.

When the Beyonders can laugh off having an Omniverse explode after Phoenix blew up the M’Kraan Crystal, come back to me on that.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Informative 1


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## Sigismund (Mar 27, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Frankly that was bullshit and the start of Jobber Tribunal.
> 
> When the Beyonders can laugh off having an Omniverse explode after Phoenix blew up the M’Kraan Crystal, come back to me on that.


AH didn't know that.

Havent kept up with Marvel in a while, so I thought PRB was still pretty high up, and not Jobbed.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 27, 2018)

ssjjshawn said:


> AH didn't know that.
> 
> Havent kept up with Marvel in a while, so I thought PRB was still pretty high up, and not Jobbed.


Nah Pre-Retcon Beyonder came at a time when the cosmic hierarchy wasn’t fully defined yet.

LT was designated to dealing with magic matters as he did in the Doctor Strange stories.

It wasn’t until the late 80s/early 90s that LT being TOAA’s right hand came about that oversaw the whole of the Omniverse.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


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## RavenSupreme (Mar 28, 2018)

nothing but the absolute creme de la creme could stop him. infamous debate pre retcon beyonder vs demiurgos (regardless which of the two brothers) goes on for years now. but thats the level of power at bare minimum necessary to handle him.
someone like toaa casual swipes him away tho

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Kuzehiko (Mar 28, 2018)

Probably Dormammu.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Nep Heart (Mar 28, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> nothing but the absolute creme de la creme could stop him. infamous debate pre retcon beyonder vs demiurgos (regardless which of the two brothers) goes on for years now. but thats the level of power at bare minimum necessary to handle him.
> someone like toaa casual swipes him away tho



 That's nice, but any one of the Archangel brothers still use PR Beyonder as toilet paper.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Black Leg Sanji (Mar 28, 2018)

So the whole deal with LT begging Molecule Man to stop Beyonder was CIS then

But yeah, Beyonder never threatened the entire Omniverse like Jim Jaspers did

He was more of a massively multiversal-force


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## Shazam (Mar 28, 2018)

Outside of TOAA I didn't think anyone in Marvel tops LM


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## RavenSupreme (Mar 28, 2018)

Ampchu said:


> That's nice, but any one of the Archangel brothers still use PR Beyonder as toilet paper.



not really a debate i care about or invest time and energy into in the first place. many people disagree with your stance on the matter, seeing how this debate wages on for such a long time. 

toaa casual swipes them away is my opinion here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Mar 28, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> not really a debate i care about or invest time and energy into in the first place. many people disagree with your stance on the matter, seeing how this debate wages on for such a long time.
> 
> toaa casual swipes them away is my opinion here.



Anyone else besides TOAA? Id say DC Yaweh would be the only one to match TOAA, maybbbe.


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## RavenSupreme (Mar 28, 2018)

jnikools said:


> Anyone else besides TOAA? Id say DC Yaweh would be the only one to match TOAA, maybbbe.



yeha. toaa = presence in my book

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> not really a debate i care about or invest time and energy into in the first place. many people disagree with your stance on the matter, seeing how this debate wages on for such a long time.
> 
> toaa casual swipes them away is my opinion here.


As I said earlier, the cosmic characters in Marvel had not been solidified then. LT was not yet the right hand of TOAA and things like Multi-Eternity hadn't come into existence yet. Shit, I don't even think we saw what the UN could do back then either.

PR Beyonder is...honestly quaint compared to Marvel after Secret Wars 2.


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 28, 2018)

TOAA is needed here

PR Beyonder may be powerful/er but he is a dolt and Lucy main strength is his Wit. Infact Lucy is smartest and cleverest comic character to date. Doom would be outsmarted promptly


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> TOAA is needed here
> 
> PR Beyonder may be powerful/er but he is a dolt and Lucy main strength is his Wit. Infact Lucy is smartest and cleverest comic character to date. Doom would be outsmarted promptly


...

No not really. LT would be enough to handle Lucifer unless he's got his Presence killing sword.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 28, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> ...
> 
> No not really. LT would be enough to handle Lucifer unless he's got his Presence killing sword.


 Nope not really

Lucy is as powerful if not more powerful since the combine might of Lucifer and Michael = Presence.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> Nope not really
> 
> Lucy is as powerful if not more powerful since the combine might of Lucifer and Michael = Presence.


That's frankly ludicrous. Presence is way above the likes of Lucifer and Michael. Unless Lucifer has his Presence killing sword, LT either stalemates or wins.


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 28, 2018)

Lucifer and the LT should pretty much be on the same level as far as I'm aware. You could make an argument for either side, so I'd just chalk it up as being a stalemate 

Lucy with his Presence killing sword is a different story, though


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 28, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> That's frankly ludicrous. Presence is way above the likes of Lucifer and Michael. Unless Lucifer has his Presence killing sword, LT either stalemates or wins.


Yes because both Michael and Lucy are his creations (not a matter of power here but ranking) but he gave one his will and the other his might. You don't need the Presence anything to deal with LT. Isn't he just inc harge of a fraction (megaverse) of the overall Marvelverse. Need to look for the citation but I remember him mentioning that even he don't have full jurisdiction


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## Shazam (Mar 28, 2018)

Michael + Lucifer = omnipotence. LT is not omnipotent.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> Yes because both Michael and Lucy are his creations (not a matter of power here but ranking) but he gave one his will and the other his might. You don't need the Presence anything to deal with LT. Isn't he just inc harge of a fraction (megaverse) of the overall Marvelverse. Need to look for the citation but I remember him mentioning that even he don't have full jurisdiction


...

LT has full authority over the entirety of creation. He's TOAA's right hand man. Whenever there's cosmic shit fucking up the balance, LT has to step in and clean up whoever's fuck up it is. That's his literal job.

We also have a feat of him literally shrugging off the M'Kraan Crystal's destruction that nuked the entire Omniverse and he casually reset the entire Omniverse and rebuilt it with just his palms. LT doesn't govern some tiny portion of Marvel, he governs everything in it.

Reactions: Informative 3


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 28, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> ...
> 
> LT has full authority over the entirety of creation. He's TOAA's right hand man. Whenever there's cosmic shit fucking up the balance, LT has to step in and clean up whoever's fuck up it is. That's his literal job.
> 
> We also have a feat of him literally shrugging off the M'Kraan Crystal's destruction that nuked the entire Omniverse and he casually reset the entire Omniverse and rebuilt it with just his palms. LT doesn't govern some tiny portion of Marvel, he governs everything in it.


And? Lucifer literally shaped the entire DCverse- LT is apart of the Marvel verse, Lucy literally up and left the verse to go create another.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> And? Lucifer literally shaped the entire DCverse- LT is apart of the Marvel verse, Lucy literally up and left the verse to go create another.


He isn't part of the Marvel-verse. The man's headquarters are literally outside the Omniverse. You'd understand this if you had two brain cells to rub together when I talked about the M'Kraan Crystal blowing up in his face and him casually recreating the Omniverse as well as how the M'Kraan Crystal works.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 28, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> He isn't part of the Marvel-verse. The man's headquarters are literally outside the Omniverse. You'd understand this if you had two brain cells to rub together when I talked about the M'Kraan Crystal blowing up in his face and him casually recreating the Omniverse as well as how the M'Kraan Crystal works.


The heart of the mother fucking universe begs to differ.
Lucy took a creation blast to the fucking face while weaken. Lmao stop


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 28, 2018)

From what I recall MJJ and the Fury might also be up there, dudes were omniversal threats and then you've got Marvel's take on Unicron and Primus who, I think might also have feats up there (Unicron I believe ate Megaverses right down to the mere idea of one), Marvel tends to hand high end cosmic power out like DC hands out superspeed, which is where the classic debate always went to Marvels favor out of the big three. They tend to have a greater number of bigger guns



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> ...
> 
> LT has full authority over the entirety of creation. He's TOAA's right hand man. Whenever there's cosmic shit fucking up the balance, LT has to step in and clean up whoever's fuck up it is. That's his literal job.
> 
> We also have a feat of him literally shrugging off the M'Kraan Crystal's destruction that nuked the entire Omniverse and he casually reset the entire Omniverse and rebuilt it with just his palms. LT doesn't govern some tiny portion of Marvel, he governs everything in it.



Adding to this he flat out dwarfed if not outright murdered the creator of the Malibucomics verse, whose corpse made the Infinity Gems of Starlins run.

LT has some sick shit in his history.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> The heart of the mother fucking universe begs to differ.
> Lucy took a creation blast to the fucking face while weaken. Lmao stop




Fucking numbnuts, that was TOAA's power. Of course LT is gonna yield to that. Do I need to use Watchdog's propeller hat image? Because you might need your dumbass hat.


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> From what I recall MJJ and the Fury might also be up there, dudes were omniversal threats and then you've got Marvel's take on Unicron and Primus who, I think might also have feats up there (Unicron I believe ate Megaverses right down to the mere idea of one), Marvel tends to hand high end cosmic power out like DC hands out superspeed, which is where the classic debate always went to Marvels favor out of the big three. They tend to have a greater number of bigger guns
> 
> Adding to this he flat out dwarfed if not outright murdered the creator of the Malibucomics verse, whose corpse made the Infinity Gems of Starlins run.
> 
> LT has some sick shit in his history.


LT also outright ignored the Chaos Wave, even as it was fucking up the Omniverse and just let the Captain Britain Corps and his pet bird deal with it.

LT did not give a single flying fuck

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 28, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> The heart of the mother fucking universe begs to differ.
> Lucy took a creation blast to the fucking face while weaken. Lmao stop



you mean the convoluted plot where God all mighty, the one above all needed to cure everything it created LT included of cosmic cancer so he hatched a plot where he gave Thanos nearly all if not all his power so Thanos could MCR himself and pull a cosmic chemotherapy deal?

IE the situation where arguably the strongest character in all of fiction (TOAA) desired for that to happen and so the LT jobbed?

masterful reasoning as always Huey, truly you are the expert on all things DC

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Atem (Mar 28, 2018)

Lucifer Morningstar meets his first roadblock when he meets himself, and has a weird sense of deja vu.

He then promptly decides to team-up with himself, and goes on a road-trip with himself.

"What's this about a black sword?"

"Yeah, Stormbringer is a right pain in the ass. Just ignore him." 

Then Count Zenith rides away into the sunset with Lucifer on shotgun.

Reactions: Funny 7


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 28, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Fucking numbnuts, that was TOAA's power. Of course LT is gonna yield to that. Do I need to use Watchdog's propeller hat image? Because you might need your dumbass hat.



This is the same dude who scaled Batman to Val Armor, because Bruce managed to 'fight him off" by running for his life in abject terror from a dying KK who had just casually removed the limbs of a dude who could punch Kryptonians so hard they anime style blood gush from the impact...Clearly he thinks on a different dimensional tier 


Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> LT also outright ignored the Chaos Wave, even as it was fucking up the Omniverse and just let the Captain Britain Corps and his pet bird deal with it.
> 
> LT did not give a single flying fuck



The LT generally reacts to cosmic calamities with the same ambivalence you and I react to someone tipping over a beer bottle on a table, in so far as how stupidly powerful he is

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Atem (Mar 28, 2018)

This is a man who does all of the drugs.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> This is the same dude who scaled Batman to Val Armor, because Bruce managed to 'fight him off" by running for his life in abject terror from a dying KK who had just casually removed the limbs of a dude who could Kryptonians so hard they anime style blood gush from the impact...Clearly he thinks on a different dimensional tier


You should have seen when he tried powerscaling Clayface to fucking Wonder Woman 


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> The LT generally reacts to cosmic calamities with the same ambivalence you and I react to someone tipping over a beer bottle on a table, in so far as how stupidly powerful he is


People thought Jiren no-selling the Genki Dama was badass. LT no-selling the Chaos Wave and the M'Kraan Crystal blowing up shits on that

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Atem (Mar 28, 2018)

Also, I guess you can technically include Conan and Elric into the hierarchy of Marvel but considering the story of the Elric Saga that means Elric is like up there with the Living Tribunal and TOAA.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Also, I guess you can technically include Conan and Elric into the hierarchy of Marvel but considering the story of the Elric Saga that means Elric is like up there with the Living Tribunal and TOAA.


Elric is a pimping dude so damn right he's sharing beers with LT and Scathan

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 28, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> You should have seen when he tried powerscaling Clayface to fucking Wonder Woman [



excuse me...

_what?!_


Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> People thought Jiren no-selling the Genki Dama was badass. LT no-selling the Chaos Wave and the M'Kraan Crystal blowing up shits on that



The LT's reaction to that shit was priceless, he just sighed and was like "God damnit tentacle monster and stupid Peacock Romans, fucking really?! I don't get over time for this shit you know" 


he came off more like an annoyed IT guy then a dude facing the ruins of what was once reality 



Elric of Melniboné said:


> Also, I guess you can technically include Conan and Elric into the hierarchy of Marvel but considering the story of the Elric Saga that means Elric is like up there with the Living Tribunal and TOAA.



Fucking seriously?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Atem (Mar 28, 2018)

And Erekose would be more TOAA than LT considering he destroys the Cosmic Balance, and likely becomes it.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> excuse me...
> 
> what?!


He took a moment where Diana jobbed to Clayface and thought that was legit. Even though it was fucking retarded because it was based on Clayface manipulating her clay form...that she hadn't had since she was a fucking baby 


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> The LT's reaction to that shit was priceless, he just sighed and was like "God damnit tentacle monster and stupid Peacock Romans, fucking really?! I don't get over time for this shit you know"
> 
> 
> he came off more like an annoyed IT guy then a dude facing the ruins of what was once reality


LT must have reacted about the same way when the Chaos Wave shit happened.

"Nah fuck this, I got the day off. You fuckers in the Captain Britain Corps deal with this shit. Just for extra insurance, I'll let my pet bird fix shit for you too."

Reactions: Funny 2


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 28, 2018)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> And Erekose would be more TOAA than LT considering he destroys the Cosmic Balance, and likely becomes it.



Goodnight, sweet prince of lies 



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> He took a moment where Diana jobbed to Clayface and thought that was legit. Even though it was fucking retarded because it was based on Clayface manipulating her clay form...that she hadn't had since she was a fucking baby
> 
> LT must have reacted about the same way when the Chaos Wave shit happened.
> 
> "Nah fuck this, I got the day off. You fuckers in the Captain Britain Corps deal with this shit. Just for extra insurance, I'll let my pet bird fix shit for you too."



"Look man, I'm taking the kids to Disney, you've got exactly five days to deal with this shit because if I come back and its still a problem. i'm gonna reboot reality again!"

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> "Look man, I'm taking the kids to Disney, you've got exactly five days to deal with this shit because if I come back and its still a problem. i'm gonna reboot reality again!"


That reminds me. I read the Protege arc again and man, LT's reaction to that kid spazzing out was hilarious. LT was willing to let the kid off the hook but Protege went all "I AM THE ONE ABOVE ALL! I HAS MORE POWER THAN YOU!"

And then LT turned to his Celestial buddy and went, "Hey Scathan, put the muzzle on this fucking brat for me."

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Atem (Mar 28, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Fucking seriously?



Yes, Marvel considers both Conan and Elric canon to it. _The Sanctuary of the White Friars_ as written by Michael Moorcock corroborates the fact all fiction exists too and is canon to the Elric Saga (and vice-versa) we see a whole host of them like Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes, and what have you (yes, seriously). The context of the latter story, and the fact there is a whole host of characters who can mess all of existence in the Elric Saga? Which going by the fact Michael Moorcock considers himself, and reality canon to the Elric Saga? Well, simply put it is a giant mess but since Marvel considers both Conan and Elric things in it there it is.

Yes, even Michael Moorcock exists in the Elric Saga as a both a character and a player of the Game of Time. We see him in the Oswald Bastable series, and in the comic books such as Michael Moorcock's Multiverse. As for an explanation?




He is a very strange man.


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## Shazam (Mar 28, 2018)

So u all saying LT > LM?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 28, 2018)

jnikools said:


> So u all saying LT > LM?



Is this entire thread about alleviating your anger over the fact that your favorite, unoriginal derivative god monk thing lost to Galactus?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 28, 2018)

jnikools said:


> So u all saying LT > LM?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 28, 2018)

I feel like we should have a propeller hat smiley for shit like this

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 28, 2018)

jnikools said:


> So u all saying LT > LM?


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## Catalyst75 (Mar 28, 2018)

jnikools said:


> So u all saying LT > LM?



Depends on how you interpret the tiering system, and which Living Tribunal it is.  Most cosmic entities in Marvel have Manifestations which they use to interact with individual Universes within the Marvel Multiverse, and the True Bodies that operate on a Multiversal scale.

Living Tribunal is one of those entities, and is repeatedly described as second only to the One Above All (though he was killed by the Beyonders in the lead up to "Secret Wars").

Lucifer Morningstar is another matter.  If he so chose, he could have taken the Presence's place as God of the DC cosmology, as both he and Michael combined were responsible for the Creation of the DC Multiverse, each having one half of the Presence's power; Lucifer can shape all Matter, while Michael Demiurgos has the power of Creation.

If this were a Manifestation Living Tribunal, Lucifer wins with ease. 

When talking about the True Body Tribunal, it becomes more questionable, but there is a strong likelihood of Lucifer winning.  The Living Tribunal has died twice in the past decade alone (once to the Beyonders, once to the Lords of Order and Chaos when the First Firmament was messing with the newborn cosmic hierarchy of the Eighth Multiverse); Lucifer Morningstar was able to kill the Dark God (which may or may not have been the Presence reborn).

In a sense, Lucifer killing the Dark God is like someone killing the One Above All.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Lucifer Morningstar takes this one. He can control and manipulate creation. CREATION, not reality. That means anything and everything; reality, dreams, imagination, anti-matter, etc etc etc. He was able to tank a blast meant to destroy all of creation. He will destroy the LT with ease.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Shazam (Mar 29, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Is this entire thread about alleviating your anger over the fact that your favorite, unoriginal derivative god monk thing lost to Galactus?



Its almost funny how hard u try

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Atem (Mar 29, 2018)

Lucifer about to get dick slapped by Elric.

Which might actually be masturbation since Elric is technically Lucifer. 

At any rate Lucifer gets a face full of albino dong.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Lewd 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 29, 2018)

Lucy sees the gay shit coming and exits of his own accord

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Atem (Mar 29, 2018)

Only to end up walking into a bathhouse full of large, burly, gay, men who want to give him a rub down.


He gets the Cloud treatment.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 29, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Outside of TOAA I didn't think anyone in Marvel tops LM



Thanos with HOTU maybe ? My memory is fuzzy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atem (Mar 29, 2018)

Pause is not saving Lucifer here.

He is about to get assaulted by the one-eyed monster curtesy of Erekose.


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## Atem (Mar 29, 2018)

The last thing Lucifer sees before he gets a surprise in the behind.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 29, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Thanos with HOTU maybe ? My memory is fuzzy.


This is also a candidate


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> boy, its sure amazing when people post as if they know what they're talking about only to make themselves look ridiculous by revealing they mouthed off without the slightest clue.



Girl, you might just be the best ive ever seen at critiquing someone else's post without making a proper rebuttal. Maybe its because you only _pretend _to know as much as you think you do.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Mar 29, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Yes well, not everyone can top claiming your unoriginal knock off angel thingy Whis can mind control Galactus, that was really spiffy and informative..That was truly a barrier broken my man
> 
> dat post lobotomy debating



Lmao

That must have really kept you up at night, considering you feel the need to bring an unrelated topic to a page 3 of a totally different thread. Are you ok?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Lmao
> 
> That must have really kept you up at night, considering you feel the need to bring unrelated to topic to a page 3 of a totally different thread. Are you ok?

Reactions: Funny 3 | Creative 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Lmao
> 
> That must have really kept you up at night, considering you feel the need to bring an unrelated topic to a page 3 of a totally different thread. Are you ok?



Dilly Dilly!


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Girl, you might just be the best ive ever seen at critiquing someone else's post without making a proper rebuttal. Maybe its because you only _pretend _to know as much as you think you do.



I mean its not like I spent the first two pages of a three page thread going on at length about what feats make the LT superior and then listing the capabilities of even more characters or anything 

maybe you should try, actually reading a thread before you spazz?


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

But muh creation right Watchdog?


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

"Forces that can reshape creation."

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 29, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> But muh creation right Watchdog?



I mean its not like the LT hasn't just oh I dunno shrugged off the annihilation of an omniverse then rebuilt it from outside, killed the creator of the Malibu comicsverse and other things that suggest him being contained within "creation" is ludicrous

edit- it's also amusing that the narration of the crossover scans gives the LT jurisdiction over the fucking DCU


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I mean its not like I spent the first two pages of a three page thread going on at length about what feats make the LT superior and then listing the capabilities of even more characters or anything
> 
> maybe you should try, actually reading a thread before you spazz?



I apologize if I don't typically waste my time reading posts by nonsensical members. Either way, you quoted my post without a proper rebuttal, and it still remains.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> I apologize if I don't typically waste my time reading posts by nonsensical members. Either way, you quoted my post without a proper rebuttal, and it still remains.


Translation: I don't want to look at the evidence that's been posted because there's people in here that I don't like


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> I apologize if I don't typically waste my time reading posts by nonsensical members.



So you basically admit you have zero interest in any debate and are only about vomiting your opinions out? That arguments made and facts illuminated mean nothing to you? So that's a yes, you're an ignorant, reactionary feels based thinker?

Go fuck off to youtube and VBW with that shit,.



JuicyG said:


> Either way, you quoted my post without a proper rebuttal, and it still remains.



Of course I did, you made an uninformed post without substance and then your response revealed a willful ignorance and laziness that amounted to comments multiple posters debunked several posts ago. In other words, you wasted everyone's time and didn't deserve anything else.



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Translation: I don't want to look at the evidence that's been posted because there's people in here that I don't like



and in doing so, dishonestly stone walling actual discussion..a thing that used to be a bannable offense once upon a time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 29, 2018)

Oh look, a scan that doesn't prove your arguments at all given everything we've discussed prior, which you'd know if you weren't such a moron as to fail to read both sides of the debate in this thread before jumping in with an uninformed opinion

Reactions: Like 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Translation: I don't want to look at the evidence that's been posted because there's people in here that I don't like



Actual Translation: People just like to type away without saying much at all.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Actual Translation: People just like to type away without saying much at all.





Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> But muh creation right Watchdog?





Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> "Forces that can reshape creation."


"People just like to type away without saying much at all."

Well shit, look at all this evidence of your MUH CREATION shit being used in Marvel and that LT shits on it


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> So you basically admit you have zero interest in any debate



Wow, your something special kid. Does this sound like a person who has interest in a debate?


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> boy, its sure amazing when people post as if they know what they're talking about only to make themselves look ridiculous by revealing they mouthed off without the slightest clue.






The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Go fuck off to youtube and VBW with that shit,.



I think you're just scared that I'd beat you in a proper debate, in all honesty. Lets do it.

Give me a proper rebuttal to my post and we'll go from there. I'll beat your ass in this debate for LM


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## Nep Heart (Mar 29, 2018)

Okay, enough with the wank, guys. Lucifier does take out a large chunk of Marvel, but Living Tribunal is not one of them. Best he takes out is the Phoenix Force and that one may be a more even match-up than outright favorable.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

Ampchu said:


> Okay, enough with the wank, guys. Lucifier does take out a large chunk of Marvel, but Living Tribunal is not one of them. Best he takes out is the Phoenix Force and that one may be a more even match-up than outright favorable.


You shouldn't try and reason with them. These are some butthurt losers that are mad over Marvel beating out some of their favorite characters. Like OP over Whis getting eaten by Big Papa G

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> "People just like to type away without saying much at all."
> 
> Well shit, look at all this evidence of your MUH CREATION shit being used in Marvel and that LT shits on it



Damn, at what moment did you decide to squeeze into a convo and apply what has been said to yourself?

LT either stalemates or loses to LM.  LT does not have lucifers infinite will, omniscience, that level of reality manipulation or thought manipulation, nor michaels (his brother, there is no comparison if they are together) infinite amount of power. LT has nigh omnipotence, but that is it. no will, no complete infinite power, no nigh omniscience. LM should have the intellect and manipulation abilities. And although power wise LT might be a shade more powerful than lucifer, this is a battle between characters, not power sets.


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Ampchu said:


> Okay, enough with the wank, guys. Lucifier does take out a large chunk of Marvel, but Living Tribunal is not one of them. Best he takes out is the Phoenix Force and that one may be a more even match-up than outright favorable.



It wouldn't call it "wank" to pit LM against LT. Not at the slightest. Lucifer has all the means necessary to battle against the likes of him.


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Oh look, a scan that doesn't prove your arguments at all given everything we've discussed prior, which you'd know if you weren't such a moron as to fail to read both sides of the debate in this thread before jumping in with an uninformed opinion



Boy, go do yourself a favor, read about Lucifer Morningstar, Stop pretending you know what you're doing here and come back after you've learned something useful for this thread. Do you even know anything about the presence? Probably not. Why do I bother.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Boy.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> The fact that you are blatantly lying and stonewalling in this thread and saying dumb shit like LT HAS NO POWER OVER CREATION when he has for years? I know Marvel makes him the Jobber Tribunal nowadays but that's no excuse not to know this



Blatant. -- I seriously doubt you understand the definition for this adjective, given that you also think I'm lying, like what the hell are you talking about? Stop wasting my time with your nonsense and get to debating.




Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Nah I think he pretty resoundingly loses. Phoenix Force is a more even fight.



Untrue. 



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> "Infinite will." You mean like LT being able to will any part of creation as he desires, even if it doesn't exist? Oh please, he's got enough will as it is.



Lets turn this around. You tell me why LT beats LM so convingly in your opinion, given what I hope you know about LM?


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## Atem (Mar 29, 2018)

By Elric's perspective whenever he tries to summon Arioch there is an endless amount of universes his astral body traverses in order to find his patron deity.


The ancient sorcerers who resided in Melnibone make note of the fact there was likely an infinite number of alternate earths.


The multiverse is outright noted to be infinite by Myshella. Also, Elric of Melnibone has an incarnation of himself in every plane of existence.


Once again the multiverse is referred to as having infinite realms, and that moonbeams are roads that extend from different spheres. Which means anyone who is able travel across them is moving pretty darn fast. Considering the fact that each of them is supposed to be infinite in size.


In The Eternal Champion we see the multiverse brought up again, and it is noted that it is infinite. It is revealed that Tanelorn exists at the center of the multiverse, and never decays like other worlds. It is forever like the Eternal Champion.


Also, in the same book it is revealed that the Eternal Champion and the Black Sword are always bound for each other. The Eternal Champion is the only person who can truly wield it. Which adds credence to the idea that Lucifer was one of his incarnations. As he was able to use it, and had his own version of the black sword known as Ravenbrand which he gives to the von Beks.


Also, the book introduces the Ghost Worlds. Which are worlds that exist alongside a normal version of Earth. They are actually solid, and they each exist in their own dimension. There is an infinite number of them for every version of Earth. We already know there are an infinite number of Earths.


And decided to double check.

_Phoenix in Obsidian_ actually has John Daker refer to the alternate dimension containing a Ghost World as a universe.


That's not the only time Ghost Worlds are referred to as universes, and hosts of universes either.


The Skrayling Tree confirms that the Elric Saga is a megaverse. It describes the multiverse as a tree. A branch is a sphere or realm, and each branch has countless twigs which are each their own parallel world. So, spheres are actually infinite multiverses. Once you include the Ghost Worlds these spheres or realms become megaverses.


The Eternal Champion makes it clear that the Ghost Worlds are connected to a version of Earth rather being a version of Earth, and are different than it existing parallel to a version of Earth. They do not exist in time, and space. The Eldren are stated to have likely come from there, and people from Ghost Worlds do not have souls.


Taken from the Oswald Bastable series from Michael Moorcock's Multiverse.

Once again it is said there is an infinite number of dimensions, and just the concept of space itself has an infinite number of dimensions. That are constantly reproducing, and infinitely creating even more dimensions.



More on Limbo, or the Middle March it exists between each version of Earth and is a universe. Which has both stars, and constellations. So, now we have yet more to each branch within the Skrayling Tree. Besides the Ghost Worlds, and alternate versions of Earth. Which are their own universes too.

More on the multiverse, and the Eternal Champion.


It mentions various incarnations of the Eternal Champion. Which includes Elric of Melniboné.

That they all seek Tanelorn, and when they do they rise above the Lords of the Higher Worlds. Who are the Lords of Chaos, and Dukes of Law.

It is confirmed that Agak, and Gagak are more powerful than all of the Lords of the Higher Worlds. Which is why the Eternal Champion was summoned to fight them instead. Since they're the only ones powerful enough to do so.


The Eternal Champions are so powerful that just by existing close to each other they threaten to destroy the fabric of the multiverse. Which is why they must sparingly meet, and only then for short periods of time.



The multiverse is outright noted to be infinite by Myshella. Also, Elric of Melnibone has an incarnation of himself in every plane of existence.


Arioch's fiefdom includes a million supernatural realms. He is capable of destroying them all as noted by Elric.



When Arioch gains control over a universe he can freely change anything about it. At some point he gains control of a realm where time does not exist, and then changes it to include time.



Through this method Arioch controls the fate of every living thing in this realm he controls. He has connected their times together, and when one person's "clock" stops so do they all. In other words, the second a person dies they all do.



Arioch tortures Count Mashabak by forcibly feeding him the psychic energy of a hundred suns.



It is revealed that Arioch's control over the realm is so complete that Stormbringer cannot eat any souls in it. As they are under his control.



We learn more about the Duke of Hell known as Arioch. Who is Elric's patron deity, and a Lord of Chaos. Arioch is displeased with Elric's defiance, and decides to hamper his journey. Arioch acknowledges that he is incapable of causing Elric harm but manages to banish him from the plane they are in. He does this by using his hammer, and hitting Mashabak's prison. This shakes several universes, and when Esbern Snare attacks him in order to save Elric he unleashes a humongous blast of energy that destroys a thousand universes. Which sends Elric careening throughout the multiverse. Elric, and Stormbringer are able to survive this. They fight back against Arioch's power, and dispel his banishment. They return to the plane they were in before.



Rackhir, and Lamsar make their way into one of Vezhan's spheres. Vezhan is a Lord of Chaos, and Rackhir's former employer. It is revealed that the Lords of the Higher Worlds have complete control over the realms under their control. Their universes drastically change, and reform themselves according to their moods. In this one it consists of only a forest, and an ocean that goes on forever towards an infinite distance. In the sky there is a sun that is cold instead of hot, and the laws of physics do not exist here. After they encounter Hionhurn the Executioner they escape. They run into, and through the ocean as it becomes a range of mountains before making it to the next plane. Also, Lamsar can enchant weapons with the Charm of Justice. This gives them the ability to hurt denizens of chaos. Which Rackhir uses to hurt Hionhurn the Executioner.


Rackhir the Red Archer is another incarnation of Elric of Melnibone. Therefore he is another incarnation of the Eternal Champion. He has made his way to Tanelorn, and now acts as a guardian against the Lords of Chaos. When once he served them. He is able to stop an invasion spearheaded by Narjhan. Another Lord of Chaos of considerable repute. Rackhir becomes known as the first mortal to have beaten a Lord of Chaos in combat forcing him to escape back to his realm, and what's more impressive is that Rackhir the Red Archer manages this without his version of the black sword.


Another thing about Narjhan is that he had the whole strength of chaos behind him when this happens.



Also, Elric was able to easily defeat Rackhir. Stormbringer being responsible for his death.


Jagreen Lern was powerful enough to break a barrier made by the Lords of Law. That protected this universe from the Lords of Chaos. He does this to summon, and bind three Dukes of Hell to his service. This includes Arioch, Balan, and Maluk. When normally only one Duke of Hell can be summoned to a sphere at a time. Who as we know is murdered by Elric with Moonglum's sword in the climax of Stormbringer.


Elric of Melnibone faces three Dukes of Hell in combat, and succeeds in defeating them. He banishes them back to chaos. Since he cannot destroy them. This is because they are immortal. This includes Arioch, Balan, and Maluk.



The conjunction of a million spheres, and the rebirth of the earth. As Elric of Melnibone embraces his destiny as the Eternal Champion, and dies by the taste of Stormbringer's steel. By his action of blowing the Horn of Fate he summons the Lords of Law across the entire multiverse, and by blowing it once more their victory against the Lords of Chaos is assured. The only remnant of chaos being Stormbringer. During this he defeats, and murders Jagreen Lern. The greatest champion of chaos.


Elric of Melnibone accidentally creates a black hole, and he is sucked into it. He survives, and is spit out into another sphere.



Once again the multiverse is referred to as having infinite realms, and that moonbeams are roads that extend from different spheres. Which means anyone who is able travel across them is moving pretty darn fast. Considering the fact that each of them is supposed to be infinite in size.


While treading the moonbeams Elric, and Renark are able to scare away a crazed Lord of Law.


It is said that time does not exist on the moonbeams, and that those who tread the moonbeams have no need of time. Those who travel the moonbeams can travel through time, and through the histories of entire civilizations.



Elric mentions how he is treading towards near-infinity on one of the moonbeams.



Far-Seeing is treading the moonbeams towards The Rose. A galaxy in another sphere where all the planets form a humongous garden.



Elric of Melnibone reveals that the reason why he is so important is because he is the most powerful sorcerer in his realm, and the only one powerful enough to unlock it. So, that the Lords of the Higher Worlds may enter. This is obviously referring to the conjunction of spheres we see later. The reason why this realm is so important is because those who have control over it are granted access to every sphere in the multiverse. It's basically the gateway through which the Lords of the Higher Worlds can begin their conquest over the entire multiverse.


The Dreamthief's Daughter confirms that dragons share a relation with Melniboneans. They likely descend from dragons who were their ancestors. As a result they are able to drink dragon venom. The Phoorn as they are called have lifespans that are almost infinite. Which explains why Melniboneans can live for so long. The Phoorn are fast enough to fly around the multiverse.


After being put into an enchanted slumber Elric's soul is ejected out of his body. As a spirit he comes across a humongous tree that is as large as the multiverse. He uses his knowledge of sorcery to traverse it, and it is revealed that he can observe time non-linearly. He meets several thousand of his other incarnations on the branches who are able to do the same thing he is doing. He eventually makes his way back to his body after this.


Ravenbrand is the ancestral sword of the Von Beks which has been passed down throughout their family's history. It is another version of the Black Sword, and it is confirmed to have belonged to Satan. Otherwise known as the Devil.


The Von Beks were charged with the duty of protecting the Holy Grail by Satan, and as we know he is the progenitor of their family. Who is none other than Elric of Melnibone. Specifically, his son Onric (Jack d'Acre, and John Daker) and his daughter Onna started the family of Von Beks. The latter of which with Ulric Von Bek. This confirms once more that the Eternal Champion, and Lucifer are the same entity.


More on Lucifer in The War Hound and the World's Pain. He fought against the Lords of Chaos after a civil war erupted in Hell. After the battle, and meeting with God; he says God has charged him with "ruling" the Earth. This is when he leaves Hell. His mission is to bring enlightenment, and knowledge to humanity so that the world's pain may be cured. The Holy Grail was created by Lilith. Yes, the biblical one. Lucifer's destiny is tied to humanity, and the Von Beks. It is likely when he became the Eternal Champion.



Lucifer also notes that Hell is infinite in size but doesn't have infinite versions of itself. That Heaven is infinite in size too, and has infinite versions of itself unlike Hell.


The Dead Gods are creatures of chaos. They are comparable to the Lords of Chaos, and with the aid of the Dead Gods the forces of chaos could have instantly conquered Elric's realm. Which is why Stormbringer, and Mournblade were made to keep them at bay. After Elric goes to face the Dead Gods, and save his wife Zarozinia he gives both of the black swords to Darnizhaan in exchange for the woman he loves. However, this is a trick. Elric uses sorcery to animate both of the black swords, and has them attack Danizhaan destroying him.



Elric can summon slyphs, sharnahs, and h'haarshanns. These are spirits of the wind. He can use them to manipulate the wind, and make things move much faster than normal.


Elric can summon Misha the Lord of the Winds, and we see the short of control it has over the weather. It is said to be as fast as sunbeams, and it is able to ravage armies.


Elric can summon Straasha. The Lord of Water. It noted how the spirits of water have been deadlocked with the forces of chaos since they have been growing in number on his Earth. The spirits of water are able to keep control of half of the ocean despite this. Whereas the forces of chaos control the dead fleet. Also, elementals exist between planes. They only partially exist in this reality while existing in their own realities. Which acts as their "home" for lack of a better word.


Elric can summon Fileet. The Lord of Birds. As well as Haaashaastakk. The Lord of Lizards. He mentions how he can summon elementals of air, fire, earth, water and ether. Not to mention entities who have affinities over the flora and fauna of Earth.



When Elric goes to get his revenge against Yyrkoon we see him summon an army of fire elementals to aid him. As he raids the dreaming city with them at his beck and call.


Elric can summon Nnuuurrrr'c'c of the Insect Folk. He is known as the King with Wings. The lord of insects, and what have you.


Also, we see that Artigkern is able to ravage multiple planets depriving them of water to the point there is nothing left. Artigkern is a denizen of chaos, and a fully-fledged Lord of Chaos.


After Elric rescues Straasha's sister the Phoorn led by Dyvim Mar use their venom to destroy Artigkern. Which is doubly impressive considering the fact Melniboneans are able to drink it with no adverse side-effects. Showing how ridiculous their resistance to poison is that even poisons that can effect Lords of Chaos don't work on them.


When people go on dream quests they do more than just leave their bodies, and live their lives out in replica bodies across the multiverse. They even create the universes in question.


Elric notes how dangerous going on dream quests is, and that people threaten the existence of universes and series of universes in the best case scenarios. In the worst case scenarios they threaten to destroy absolutely everything in the multiverse. Just with their sorcery, and drugs.


Elric defeats Prince Gaynor the Damned. The Eternal Predator, and constant enemy of the Eternal Champion. He does so by summoning hundreds of Stormbringer's brothers and sisters. After which Stormbringer greedily devours every aspect of Gaynor. We see Elric breath fire like a dragon too.


Sepiriz makes note of the fact that all black swords are as powerful as each other.


Straasha, the Lord of Water, embodies the gods of all oceans and has dominion over every ocean in the multiverse. He has his own sphere where the water spirits reside, and he opens a way for Elric to go back to the plane he was looking for. Elric swims his way through universes of water with Stormbringer, and every ocean in the multiverse before finally making it to his destination. His backstroke is to be feared.



Now here are some really crazy ones. These instances are taken from _The Skrayling Tree_.

Ulric von Bek, and Sepiriz are able to navigate their way around the Skrayling Tree. Which embodies, and encompasses the entire multiverse. Ulric Von Bek grows to the size of galaxies while he is on his search for his wife, and yet he is still but an insignificant speck when compared to the tree. There are gusts of wind that shake the branches, and twigs of the Skyraling Tree. The spheres, and realms which make up the multiverse. It is revealed that it is the breathing of one of the phoorn. The dragon relatives of the mernii. In fact, it is the greatest of them. The Great Wyrm. The World Serpent.

Ouroboros.


We learn more about the phoorn. How they conquered universes, and witnessed the death of galaxies. The mernii otherwise known as the melniboneans were the half-human, and half-phoorn offspring they had. Ouroboros was dying because without his skefla'a he had no way to feed on the multiverse, and he was starving to death over the course of thousands of years. Normally, he would be immortal with his skefla'a. The unique membrane the phoorn have. Which is a problem as he is was chosen by the Soul of Creation to protect the Skyraling Tree as the greatest of the phoorn. Which means his starvation is poisoning the whole Skyraling Tree, and threatening to destroy the cosmic balance. Which is why he asks Ulric Von Bek as one of his descendants to bring an end to his life before that happens.


Here Elric who summons Lord Shaoshooan. A lord of wind. After which Prince Gaynor the Damned hacks away at the roots of the Skyraling Tree. Lord Shaoshooan is able to summon tornadoes powerful enough to cause damage to the Skrayling Tree and shake it. However, he is contained by the nine Kakatanawa.



Elric grievously wounds the World Serpent, and cuts into his spine with Stormbringer. After which we find out he was only pretending to side with Prince Gaynor in order to give the World Serpent back the skefla'a it so desperately needed. It turns out the shield was one part of the skefla'a, the talisman Elric had given Ulric is another part of it, and he uses his sorcery to conjure flames to fuse it back into the World Serpent's spine. Another thing to remember is at this point Ulric, and Elric are the size of galaxies. The World Serpent is still far larger than they are, and yet these flames he conjured could still do this before disappearing among the branches of the Skrayling Oak.



In _The Flaneur des Arcade_ Monsieur Zenith is confirmed to be Elric of Melnibone on one of his dream quests. Also, Arioch is once more referred to as an archangel. Zenith is able to confer a soul upon Klosterheim, and make him mortal. When before he was immortal due to having no soul. He slays Klosterheim but keeps him trapped before his death, and forces him to live through the moment of his death until the end of time. This between eternity, and the void. Where the balance lays.


Also, earlier in the novel it's made clear that Klosterheim was a fallen angel. Who was one of Satan's greatest servants before Satan sought reconciliation with God. Which is further elaborated on in the ending. When Zenith makes note of the fact Klosterheim stood as Lucifer's right hand alongside Arioch.



This is taken from the _The Revenge of the Rose_.

We gets some references to _The Dragon in the Sword_, and how the dragon isle of Melniboné was formed. The three princesses Tayaratuka, Mishiguya, and Shanug’a are able to create three swords as powerful as Stormbringer. Which they plan to use in the coming battle against Gaynor. Those wielding these swords are a match for Lords of the Higher Worlds.


Prince Gaynor the Damned is empowered by the Lords of Chaos, and is able to summon their army into battle. Elric, Rose, the three sisters, and Charion Phatt fight against him. These six warriors are able to devastate half of the army of chaos before Gaynor changes the tide of the battle with his leech-sword which can phase between dimensions, and draw away Elric's life-force when their swords clash against each other.

Elric, and Rose summon the Tangled Woman. Who seems to be an extremely powerful cosmic entity. Who devastates Gaynor's army, and forces him to retreat.



Elric, and Rose get Sadric's soul back from Arioch by giving him Prince Gaynor the Damned's soul instead. After which they trap Count Mashabak's soul into the soulbox using Stormbringer. In this instance Stormbringer is able to channel the life-force of the multiverse, devour Count Mashabak's soul, and then transfer it into the soulbox. Count Mashabak is a Lord of Chaos, and a rival of Arioch who Arioch had captured and had been torturing earlier.


This is from Elric: The Making of a Sorcerer.


Varnik uses Stormbringer, and accidentally cuts an entire universe in half.

This releases Phoorn from their inter-dimensional prison. The great dragon brothers, and sisters of Mernii. Who will one day be known as the Melniboneans.

This comes from _The Quest for Tanelorn_. It signals the end of Dorian Hawkmoon's story, and him finally returning home to the people he loves. Jack d'Acre (also known as Onric von Bek, and John Daker) assumes the form of Erekose once more, and helps bring an end to everything. It is revealed that the demonic spirit within Stormbringer was set free by slaying Elric of Melnibone in _Stormbringer_. It started to wane in power after the Silver Queen brought life back to Elric's world by renewing the sun in _Phoenix in Obsidian_. It takes an entirely new manifestation. Also, it is confirmed that Stormbringer and Mournblade were made from the Dragon Sword's remains. After a demonic spirit was used to replace the dragon that was set free during the beginning of the great cycle. The essence of this dark entity being split between the two black swords. However, after Mournblade was destroyed both halves of this essence entered Stormbringer. This dark entity wishes to destroy the multiverse, and leave only Tanelorn behind. Which it is capable of doing.

After which it returns, and enters Stormbringer once more after the black sword was found again on the South Ice. Erekose takes up this Stormbringer, and forces it to submit to him. As he destroys the cosmic balance, and this time permanently. However, he would not let this dark entity destroy the multiverse and using his connection to Dorian Hawkmoon he has him use the Runestaff to stop it. Thus destroying Stormbringer, the Runestaff, the Black Jewel, and the Cosmic Balance. This frees the Eternal Champions from their immutable fate.

Jack d'Acre, John Daker, Dead Erekose, the White Wolf's Son meets his end with Ermizhad at his side. Dorian Hawkmoon returns home at last.

Now the whole multiverse would be free, and fate would no longer be set in stone.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Blatant. -- I seriously doubt you understand the definition for this adjective, given that you also think I'm lying, like what the hell are you talking about? Stop wasting my time with your nonsense and get to debating.


I know what blatant means. Your stonewalling in this conversation is enough proof that you're dishonest and not the great debater you make yourself out to be.


JuicyG said:


> Untrue.


Goes to show that you know absolutely nothing about the Phoenix Force. Phoenix Force nuked the Omniverse after the M'Kraan Crystal got fucked up by the Dweller in Darkness and undid Wanda's "NO MUTANTS" crap in Avengers vs X-Men which affected the entire Omniverse and was repeatedly rebooting it. Phoenix Force is more than enough to handle Lucifer Morningstar.


JuicyG said:


> Lets turn this around. You tell me why LT beats LM so convingly in your opinion, given what I hope you know about LM?


I gave you reasons. Read them.


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Lucifer will just manipulate LT doing what he wants it to do. Lucifer is by Morpheus (the Sandman) described as the most powerful individual in Creation save for his Creator, but whats important to remember is that Lucifer isn't a character that really displays that sort of power, because it just bores him and he prefers to manipulate things instead.

But if you need an example; Lucifer cut Micheal open with a sword and survived an point blank explosion that was said would burn all of Creation clean (technically he survived the Big Bang going off two feet away from him).

Also, if I am not mistaken, didn't a Marvel book show off the Watcher looking at LT's broken carcass?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Atem (Mar 29, 2018)

@JuicyG 

By the way, that's not even everything. I have yet to bring up _The Sanctuary of the White Friars_. 

I will wait for your "rebuttal" on what I just posted while I prepare the rest of what I have.


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> By Elric's perspective whenever he tries to summon Arioch there is an endless amount of universes his astral body traverses in order to find his patron deity.
> 
> [LINKHL]274238[/LINKHL]
> 
> ...



Wow, I really respect this amount of work. Thanks for being a good sport in this thread

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Lucifer will just manipulate LT doing what he wants it to do. Lucifer is by Morpheus (the Sandman) described as the most powerful individual in Creation save for his Creator, but whats important to remember is that Lucifer isn't a character that really displays that sort of power, because it just bores him and he prefers to manipulate things instead.


Yes because LT hasn't dealt with manipulators like Mephisto, Adam Warlock or the fucking Dweller in Darkness before 


JuicyG said:


> But if you need an example; Lucifer cut Micheal open with a sword and survived an point blank explosion that was said would burn all of Creation clean (technically he survived the Big Bang going off two feet away from him).


LT literally no-sold the Omniverse being blown up in his face and casually rebooted it on a whim. He also ignored when the Chaos Wave was repeatedly resetting creation over and over again because it was that beneath him. You show me Lucifer literally ignoring a threat on that scale.


JuicyG said:


> Also, if I am not mistaken, didn't a Marvel book show off the Watcher looking at LT's broken carcass?




That's not LT, that's Jobber Tribunal you fucking dolt. Yeah let's use a moment where he jobbed because you're running out of reasons for why Lucifer is above LT

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Can't wait for the infinity war movie! But no I didn't watch your vid


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> @JuicyG
> 
> By the way, that's not even everything. I have yet to bring up _The Sanctuary of the White Friars_.
> 
> I will wait for your "rebuttal" on what I just posted while I prepare the rest of what I have.



Fair enough, I'll switch my focus. It'll take some time to digest all of your work


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Lucifer will just manipulate LT doing what he wants it to do. Lucifer is by Morpheus (the Sandman) described as the most powerful individual in Creation save for his Creator, but whats important to remember is that Lucifer isn't a character that really displays that sort of power, because it just bores him and he prefers to manipulate things instead.
> 
> But if you need an example; Lucifer cut Micheal open with a sword and survived an point blank explosion that was said would burn all of Creation clean (technically he survived the Big Bang going off two feet away from him).
> 
> Also, if I am not mistaken, didn't a Marvel book show off the Watcher looking at LT's broken carcass?



citing fanfiction and character traits in a non scenario match

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Goes to show that you know absolutely nothing about the Phoenix Force. *Phoenix Force nuked the Omniverse* after the M'Kraan Crystal got fucked up by the Dweller in Darkness and undid Wanda's "NO MUTANTS" crap in Avengers vs X-Men which affected the entire Omniverse and was repeatedly rebooting it. Phoenix Force is more than enough to handle Lucifer Morningstar.



No, no its not enough to beat LM. Ive already posted a durability feat that eclipses this earlier. Go back and read.



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I gave you reasons. Read them.



Hardly, you have yet to spell out a case for LT beating LM to me, not once. Worthless. I'm switching my focus over to someone who actually cares to have a debate on this.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> No, no its not enough to beat LM. Ive already posted a durability feat that eclipses this earlier. Go back and read.
> .



now you're just lying, especially given what happened on panel was vastly less than what actually happened

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> No, no its not enough to beat LM. Ive already posted a durability feat that eclipses this earlier. Go back and read.


>tanking the universe's explosion
>somehow comparable to nuking the entire Omniverse

Ok so we know you have no sense of scale at all


JuicyG said:


> Hardly, you have spelled out a case for LT beating LM to me, not once. Worthless. I'm switching my focus over to someone who actually cares to have a debate on this.


Translation: You put your fingers in your ears and ignored all the points and scans that have been made against Lucifer. Some debater you are.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Yes because LT hasn't dealt with manipulators like Mephisto, Adam Warlock or the fucking Dweller in Darkness before



Sorry but I had to stop reading here... Did you just try to compare Adam Warlock and crew with Lucifer Morningstar? Your answer will depend on whether I reply back.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Sorry but I had to stop reading here... Did you just try to compare Adam Warlock and crew with Lucifer Morningstar? Your answer will depend on whether I reply back.


You tried to make it sound like LT was a fucking moron who can get manipulated on a dime by Lucifer when LT has dealt with people that have tried to manipulate him to do their bidding.

The Dweller in Darkness is the most powerful of them all but hey how does power matter in a debate about characters like you said

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> >tanking the universe's explosion
> >somehow comparable to nuking the entire Omniverse
> 
> Ok so we know you have no sense of scale at all
> ...



Ok, now _you _are the one blatantly lying. I never said anything on a universal level. Rather I said Lucy tanked a blast that was meant to destroy all of creation. Why are u refusing to be an honest debater?


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Ok, now _you _are the one blatantly lying. I never said anything on a universal level. Rather I said Lucy tanked a blast that was meant to destroy all of creation. Why are u refusing to be an honest debater?


Oh I just looked at your scan and it literally doesn't say that. Even taking into account that feat you just mentioned, Lucifer did not no-sell it or ignore it like LT did with the M'Kraan Crystal's destruction or the Chaos Wave.

Put Lucifer in either of those scenarios and he'd be seriously fucked.


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## JuicyG (Mar 29, 2018)

@Elric of Melniboné I should have a proper, respectable rebuttal up by this evening or morning. Gotta head to work soon, friend.


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## The Runner (Mar 29, 2018)

>taking a scan out of context 

I'm getting Tonathan flashback bois


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## Atem (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Fair enough, I'll switch my focus. It'll take some time to digest all of your work



This would be from Michael Moorcock's Multiverse. Michael Moorcock is the writer and a character in the franchise, and the series is pretty meta including us in its cosmology. Mind you, not literally our reality but one nearly identical to ours. The Jackal is one of Anubis's identities, and he taught Michael Moorcock about the Game of Time. Which is a game to determine whether the multiverse remains the same, or changes. In it entire realities are the game-board.






Once more we see that the moonbeams are roads leading into other realities, and which people _literally_ walk across. It is so commonplace you can see the moonbeam roads littered with countless travelers making their way to other realities. Rose von Bek, one of the Eternal Champions, uses it a lot.



Elric notes how it only takes three blows with the Horn of Fate to change the nature of the entire multiverse.



In Elric: The Balance Lost we have the Warriors of the Edge of Time. Which is all of the deceased Eternal Champions that Elric can summon with the ring of sorcerer kings, and a black sword.








In _The Dragon in the Sword _Prince Flamadin's version of the Black Sword is known as the Dragon Sword. It is powerful enough to defeat, and conquer the whole of chaos. John Daker is able to fight against Prince Flamadin's influence, and take the Dragon Sword. After Prince Flamadin takes it back he uses the Dragon Sword to free all of the Lords of Chaos. Yes, literally every Lord of Chaos led by Archduke Balarizaaf. John Daker takes the Dragon Sword back, and he uses the might of the Black Sword to summon every version of the Warriors at the End of Time. In other words, every single version of the Eternal Champion. John Daker leads them into battle. This army of heroes is able to defeat, and banish all of the forces of chaos.









John Daker has another impressive showing after this. He is even able to break the Dragon Sword into two pieces. He slams the Dragon Sword against the Iron Round which is an anvil. His strike was so powerful that every planet, and star in the entire multiverse feels the reverberation of it causing them to break. He releases the she-dragon trapped inside of the black sword as a result. Who opens the Dragon Gate to what is apparently paradise. The dragon itself is larger than a sun.










John Daker, Jack d'Acre, and Erekose are all the same person.

In_ The White Wolf's Son_ it is revealed that Jack d'Acre and John Daker are the same person. So, John Daker is actually Elric of Melnibone's son.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Runner (Mar 29, 2018)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> In_ The White Wolf's Son_ it is revealed that Jack d'Acre and John Daker are the same person. So, John Daker is actually Elric of Melnibone's son.


I tried to read the scan but I got distracted by the pic below it



I think this meme worthy pic actually describes this bullshit situation right now


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Blatant. -- I seriously doubt you understand the definition for this adjective, given that you also think I'm lying, like what the hell are you talking about? Stop wasting my time with your nonsense and get to debating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





JuicyG said:


> Sorry but I had to stop reading here... Did you just try to compare Adam Warlock and crew with Lucifer Morningstar? Your answer will depend on whether I reply back.




See, I'd point out to global mods who come in here and babble about how we're the bad guys. This user is lying, stonewalling and generally making debate impossible, he admits to not even following the argument in the debate, displays some rather blatant moral cowardice when he runs from posters, misrepresents posts and generally just spazzes all over the place. This isn't debating, this is trolling and this is the best case for the rules of the old Formal Battledome being restored and enforced here in the general OBD. Under those rules JuicyG would have been banned within three or so posts and there would be no need to resort to the conduct you guys flail about.

Users shouldn't be afflicted with garbage...and when they do start to spam propeller hat pics, the idea of you guys punishing them is preposterous.



Sir Jogga said:


> >taking a scan out of context
> 
> I'm getting Tonathan flashback bois



I mean, a trash user who can barely read, deliberately lies and is often times mind bogglingly ignorant about the topic he's discussing?

That's less tonathan and more a halmark of Phenom and his buddies

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Catalyst75 (Mar 29, 2018)

Please don't tell me the discussions in this thread started to include the Elric Saga in this match-up, somehow.


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 29, 2018)

L


Ampchu said:


> Okay, enough with the wank, guys. Lucifier does take out a large chunk of Marvel, but Living Tribunal is not one of them. Best he takes out is the Phoenix Force and that one may be a more even match-up than outright favorable.


this fucking downplay so now Lucifer is Phoenix force level Jesus fucking Christ 


Phoenix force is on the same playing field as the source and Lucy above that

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> this fucking downplay so now Lucifer is Phoenix force level Jesus fucking Christ
> 
> 
> Phoenix force is on the same playing field as the source and Lucy above that


Sure it is. Because the Source has ignored something that was fucking up the Omniverse repeatedly or had a cosmic seizure so overwhelming in power that it blew up all of creation for LT to casually restore.

Yeah, there's no downplay here except for Phoenix.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 29, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Sure it is. Because the Source has ignored something that was fucking up the Omniverse repeatedly or had a cosmic seizure so overwhelming in power that it blew up all of creation for LT to casually restore.
> 
> Yeah, there's no downplay here except for Phoenix.


you do realize the source wall is sphere that encircles the entire DCverse right?!

So now Galactus can beat Thought robot, Phoenix force can beat Lucifer morningstar? I honestly believe you think Presence would probably lose to LT .  


Come back here when you shown you read at least one storyline in DC on a cosmic scale

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atem (Mar 29, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Please don't tell me the discussions in this thread started to include the Elric Saga in this match-up, somehow.


Marvel actually considers Conan, and Elric a part of it so yeah. That's how that happened.

Michael Moorcock even participated in writing the plot for said cross-overs so it is pseudo-canon. Which makes Marvel's hierarchy all the more confusing.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> you do realize the source wall is sphere that encircles the entire DCverse right?!


Is there a point here? Because the M'Kraan Crystal is outside the Omniverse and is the nexus of all realities and the center of creation. Kinda more impressive on that front there.


Huey Freeman said:


> So now Galactus can beat Thought robot, Phoenix force can beat Lucifer morningstar? I honestly believe you think Presence would probably lose to LT .


Presence would beat the LT rather easily. It would take at most TOAA and at least Awakened Tiamut. But please do strawman me, I quite enjoy you trying to make arguments for me.


Huey Freeman said:


> Come back here when you shown you read at least one storyline in DC on a cosmic scale


How about you fucking read an X-Men comic before you mouth off about the Phoenix Force? And not SJW Marvel either, I mean 90s-2000s era X-Men. Then you can come back to me and tell me what you think about the Phoenix Force.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 29, 2018)

No competent person who read comics would tell you Phoenix force is above Lucifer Morningstar, I can tell you haven’t read one vertigo comic in your life. All your retorts are from Marvel sides of things and your shitty debating skills fail to understand that’s all find and dandy in Marvel but means shit all in the DC verse because once again you nimcompoop, stop equating Marvel cosmic hierarchy to DC comics. 

This is the second wank character you pulled out your ass.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Catalyst75 (Mar 29, 2018)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Marvel actually considers Conan, and Elric a part of it so yeah. That's how that happened.
> 
> Michael Moorcock even participated in writing the plot for said cross-overs so it is pseudo-canon. Which makes Marvel's hierarchy all the more confusing.


If it is problematic, why bring it up?  Even if two properties start out separate and get combined later on, wouldn't it be simpler to exclude the one when talking about the other in a debate like this?


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> No competent person who read comics would tell you Phoenix force is above Lucifer Morningstar, I can tell you haven’t read one vertigo comic in your life.


This is some fine projection on your part given you haven't read any X-Men comic 


Huey Freeman said:


> your retorts are from Marvel sides of things and your shitty debating skills fail to understand that’s all find and dandy in Marvel but means shit all in the DC verse because once again you nimcompoop, stop equating Marvel cosmic hierarchy to DC comics.


I'm really not equating crap. You're just not understanding the difference here. Who's the fucking nincompoop here? It's not my fault you can't understand Phoenix countering the Chaos Wave or nuking the Omniverse from a cosmic seizure is more than what the Source can do or that it's within Lucifer's range. But hey, keep ignoring my points and strawmanning me, you wonderfully amazing and brilliant debater.


Huey Freeman said:


> This is the second wank character you pulled out your ass.


Nah it isn't. It's not my fault that you haven't read shit from Marvel because you don't know fuck about Galactus or Eternity or the Phoenix Force. Even when I give you feats, you fail to give anything substantial in return. That's on you Boss Wigger, not me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Catalyst75 (Mar 29, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> No competent person who read comics would tell you Phoenix force is above Lucifer Morningstar, I can tell you haven’t read one vertigo comic in your life. All your retorts are from Marvel sides of things and your shitty debating skills fail to understand that’s all find and dandy in Marvel but means shit all in the DC verse because once again you nimcompoop, stop equating Marvel cosmic hierarchy to DC comics.
> 
> This is the second wank character you pulled out your ass.


Huey, they know everything to do with Vertigo Lucifer (also DC Lucifer, as the Sandman line shares a Universe with DC).


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## Atem (Mar 29, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> If it is problematic, why bring it up?  Even if two properties start out separate and get combined later on, wouldn't it be simpler to exclude the one when talking about the other in a debate like this?



Well, I bring it up because the two properties do get combined in this cross-over. And due to the all encompassing nature of the Elric Saga to the point even the writer is drawn into it, and every other piece of fiction due to the elaboration on how all fiction is real in _The Sanctuary of the White Friars _means it is not problematic for the Elric Saga. Plus once you consider the fact Marvel's definition of the omniverse is similiar. That it is literally all things in fiction, and reality (a fictional reality in this case) you can actually fit the two together.

Which means it ultimately becomes relevant just like Conan. To say nothing of Red Sonja who is heavily reliant on the Conan Mythos. Despite being a Marvel property.


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 29, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Huey, they know everything to do with Vertigo Lucifer (also DC Lucifer, as the Sandman line shares a Universe with DC).


Lol no they don’t if they were debating this thing honestly dude wouldn’t be using Marve tier rankings to try undermine DC characters on purpose.

The Phoenix force has never have the feats to put it in the Same tier as the archangels let alone above. This is a fact.


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> Lol no they don’t if they were debating this thing honestly dude wouldn’t be using Marve tier rankings to try undermine DC characters on purpose.


Yes because ignoring my points for the trillionth time is gonna work. Keep repeating that lie to yourself, it might come true.


Huey Freeman said:


> The Phoenix force has have the feats to put it in the Same tier as the archangels. This is a fact.


And you're a shit tier debater and one of the worst I've had to discuss with. I mean you're the dumbfuck who used Diana jobbing to Clayface to try and put Clayface on her level. So your track record is embarrassing as is unlike mine

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Atem (Mar 29, 2018)

@Huey Freeman 

You trying to argue for faster than light, kryptonian level, Batman isn't though.

KMC is not good for the brain Huey.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Huey Freeman (Mar 29, 2018)

I am not or anyone else with common sense isn’t going to debate you because you’re like a stone wall. you bring up irrelevant points without a clue of what you’re posting.

Omiverse-megaverse-multiverse means the same thing only in Marvel do they use those as rankings and the OBD adapted that.

DC rarely ever mention a omniverse, and never uses a megaverse but refer to its entire verse as a multiverse. That Phoenix force is called the spark of life and serves the exact same purpose as the Source. 

Lucifer Morning is the Embodiment of Yahweh will and he was the one who shaped the entire DC verse, or translated to you in Marvelese the entire DC omniverse, he is seen to be above the entire verse and has feats of tanking a omniversal or creation blast to the face un scratch. 

As you already did will dismiss these points because it goes against your agenda and thus your constant need for conflict will make you continue reply to me. The need to validate your so called “ intellectual superiority “ to some random guys on the internet is interesting.

So before your brine levels raise your blood pressure, I’m done wasting my time. I’m out and kick rocks fam

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 29, 2018)

Lucy's Mansions of Silence feat is more impressive than his tanking of the creation blast


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 29, 2018)

Doorway Fetus from Lucifer's multiverse gambit vs the Propeller hat brigade in this thread! Go! Go! 

on a more serious note, the Phoenix force possesses raw power onpar with people like LSM and Micheal but it lacks the capacity to actually fully wield it. It usually ends up with a cracker shoved in its mouth by an annoyed LT who needs to borrow some of its feathers for a reboot

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 29, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> on a more serious note, the Phoenix force possesses raw power onpar with people like LSM and Micheal but it lacks the capacity to actually fully wield it. It usually ends up with a cracker shoved in its mouth by an annoyed LT who needs to borrow some of its feathers for a reboot


I swear whenever the Phoenix Force fucks up, the LT reacts like a dog owner when he comes home to find his pupper took a shit on the carpet when he just had that cleaned

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Catalyst75 (Mar 29, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> Lol no they don’t if they were debating this thing honestly dude wouldn’t be using Marve tier rankings to try undermine DC characters on purpose.
> 
> The Phoenix force has never have the feats to put it in the Same tier as the archangels let alone above. This is a fact.


Huey, I have seen one of the feats in question and heard it discussed at length before.

If both were equivalent, it would come down to greater utility, and the Phoenix Force has that.  For all of Lucifer's power, I recall that his power (even being one half of God's power) cannot Create, only manipulate what already exists.  It is Michael who has the Creation power.

The Phoenix not only boasts unparalleled psychic prowess, but is the Flame of Creation itself.  That puts her right alongside the Living Tribunal, if not higher ( the Phoenix has a feat of its power burning the Beyonder, IIRC).



Elric of Melniboné said:


> Well, I bring it up because the two properties do get combined in this cross-over. And due to the all encompassing nature of the Elric Saga to the point even the writer is drawn into it, and every other piece of fiction due to the elaboration on how all fiction is real in _The Sanctuary of the White Friars _means it is not problematic for the Elric Saga. Plus once you consider the fact Marvel's definition of the omniverse is similiar. That it is literally all things in fiction, and reality (a fictional reality in this case) you can actually fit the two together.
> 
> Which means it ultimately becomes relevant just like Conan. To say nothing of Red Sonja who is heavily reliant on the Conan Mythos. Despite being a Marvel property.



In that context, wouldn't a certain interpretation mean anyone who has ever crossed over with Marvel is valid for this?


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## Masterblack06 (Mar 30, 2018)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## The Runner (Mar 30, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> Lol no they don’t if they were debating this thing honestly dude wouldn’t be using Marve tier rankings to *try undermine DC characters on purpose.*


Funny. 

Cuz you yourself do the same shit to DC characters who aren't part of the Batfamily.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> By Elric's perspective whenever he tries to summon Arioch there is an endless amount of universes his astral body traverses in order to find his patron deity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Elric of Melniboné said:


> By Elric's perspective whenever he tries to summon Arioch there is an endless amount of universes his astral body traverses in order to find his patron deity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After reading through your work finally, I find myself sort of lost at work conclusion you were reaching at.

In the Lucifer Morningstar Vertigo line, Gaberial and others believed Lucy was the one who killed the Presence. Given the fact that the Presence was specifically stated to be a triple O (Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient), it gives reason to the audience to believe that even though he didn't kill the Presence he was thought capable enough to do so. Which is something the Living Tribunal could never ever do, is kill a triple O.


private image hosting

Here Lucifer speaks of being able to manipulate creation to his will. Anything the Living Tribunal would do, would be instantly subjected to Lucy's will.


private image hosting

The archangels (more importantly, a weaker one than Lucifer), has existed on a plane stated to be out of reach byand omnisicient being)gives reason that Lucifer Morningstar can as well.


Lucifer telling Mazikeen that if she wasn't ruling Hell and had died, he would have burnt down all of creation (Living Tribunal would be finished)


Gaberial comparing Lucifer Morningstar to their father, the presence in terms of his abilities at times. Something the Living Tribunal could never hope to live up to.

private image hosting

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

Lucifer can shape the matter and foundation of Creation into anything he can imagine, including matter, energy and time. Whatever LT does will be at the mercy of Lucy's will to manipulate, on levels above LT's control. The smarter creationist here wins. Lucy has also harmed a rebirth of the Presence in Silver City. Lucifer is also the uncle of Elaine Belloc who was stated to be a triple O (Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent) herself, she's been seen asking Lucifer himself for thoughts and advice.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

@Imakarum Mirabilis @The Immortal WatchDog Hey kids I'll be waiting for a worthwhile response, don't disappoint.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Oh I just looked at your scan and it literally doesn't say that. Even taking into account that feat you just mentioned, Lucifer did not no-sell it or ignore it like LT did with the M'Kraan Crystal's destruction or the Chaos Wave.
> 
> Put Lucifer in either of those scenarios and he'd be seriously fucked.



You act like a feat such as tanking a blast meant to destroy creation is somehow less of a feat than LT did. WTH. What exactly do you think all of creation entails???? 





Put LT in Lucy's spot and its over before it finishes.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Atem (Mar 30, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> After reading through your work finally, I find myself sort of lost at work conclusion you were reaching at.



I thought it was pretty obvious. The Eternal Champions are monstrously powerful reality warpers who can influence, and reshape the entire multiverse. Who were at one point Lucifer Morningstar before events saw fit to make them into the Eternal Champion. The biblical one, and not the comic book one. The multiverse in this case being humongous, and consisting of numerous multiverses and megaverses. An infinite number of them. Up to, and including all works of fiction. As well as in the meta sense including the writer, and "our" fictionalized reality.



> In the Lucifer Morningstar Vertigo line, Gaberial and others believed Lucy was the one who killed the Presence. Given the fact that the Presence was specifically stated to be a triple O (Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient), it gives reason to the audience to believe that even though he didn't kill the Presence he was thought capable enough to do so. Which is something the Living Tribunal could never ever do, is kill a triple O.



Omnipotence is just a word, and being stronger than omnipotence is an oxymoron. If you can defeat or be stronger than omnipotence then it is not omnipotence by the very definition of it. Which just means the Presence is not actually omnipotent, or infallible if Lucifer can best him in any way. To be omnipotent you have to be completely, and utterly perfect. You can't be beaten, and you can do everything. Which itself is contradictory. Which is why the OBD doesn't pay such claims that much attention. Due to how casually they are thrown around without actual consideration for what they mean.



> private image hosting
> 
> Here Lucifer speaks of being able to manipulate creation to his will.



So can most Lords of Chaos, and Lords of Law who can freely manipulate every aspect of the realms under their control. Who are explicitly beneath the Eternal Champions. Who are consistently matched, and defeated by them. Who have failed to actually defeat the Eternal Champions for the most part.



> Anything the Living Tribunal would do, would be instantly subjected to Lucy's will.



I am not talking about the Living Tribunal here. Besides that, this would be a no-limit fallacy. We go by feats first, and accolades second provided the latter is not contradicted. In which case they are fine to use.



> private image hosting
> 
> The archangels (more importantly, a weaker one than Lucifer), has existed on a plane stated to be out of reach byand omnisicient being)gives reason that Lucifer Morningstar can as well.



The Eternal Champions can exist outside of time, and space. As well as enter places where time doesn't exist. As well as hide from Lords of the Higher Worlds when they are all knowing, and all encompassing throughout their respective realms. Elric is able to find Arioch when he doesn't want to be found too.



> Lucifer telling Mazikeen that if she wasn't ruling Hell and had died, he would have burnt down all of creation (Living Tribunal would be finished)



Why are you including the Living Tribunal with "all of creation?" That would simply mean everything in Vertigo, and DC. It is not talking about anything else. The Living Tribunal is a property of another comic book company entirely.



> Gaberial comparing Lucifer Morningstar to their father, the presence in terms of his abilities at times. Something the Living Tribunal could never hope to live up to.
> 
> private image hosting



Which you are claiming because... ? By feats I would say he is up there with them, and has had influence over everything in Marvel. The only one _really_ above him being TOAA. You say creation, matter, and will a lot but that's not impressive within the context of fiction. There are a lot of characters who can manipulate creation, matter, and have willpower that can warp reality.



JuicyG said:


> Lucifer can shape the matter and foundation of Creation into anything he can imagine, including matter, energy and time. Whatever LT does will be at the mercy of Lucy's will to manipulate, on levels above LT's control. The smarter creationist here wins. Lucy has also harmed a rebirth of the Presence in Silver City. Lucifer is also the uncle of Elaine Belloc who was stated to be a triple O (Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent) herself, she's been seen asking Lucifer himself for thoughts and advice.



As I said before the manipulation of matter, energy, amd time isn't anything new. It is the scale of this that matters. How many universes, multiverses, and megaverses it is effecting. I am using the typical OBD terminology of this. That a multiverse is an infinte number of universes. A megaverse is an infinite number of multiverses, and an omniverse is even bigger containing multiple megaverses, everything in fiction, and fictionalized versions of reality.

In the case of what I posted it would be omniversal, and then some for the Eternal Champions. Since it contains even more realities than normal for an omniverse, and there are even more systems besides the Skrayling Tree in Michael Moorcock's Multiverse. Such as the Wheel.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

@Elric of Melniboné  Lucifer Morningstar isn't just your basic reality warper. He created the DC verse and stated himself to be capable of destroying it all as well. And it is unreasonable to say that something cannot be used as a describition of a characters abilites even when provided the panel as proof, who are we to decide what the authors intentions were? Also, that wasn't the first time Lucy has either killed or injured or fought a supposed omnipotent foe...



Kills 2 manipulating immortals who have stole Yahweh's omnipotence by reaching back through time and insta-killing them in the past...


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

Also Living Tribunal as far I know didn't exist before the Marvel verse was created, unlike Lucy who was there even before DC's verse was brought into creation. He can basically do anything he wants with the essence of Creation itself, ranging from straightforward reality-warping to affecting the metaphorical and imaginary in bizarre ways. Lucifer's greatest assets by far are his willpower, intelligence, and cunning. Being the character who he is, its not crazy to think that Lucy would completely outwit the Living Tribunal as he was able to do that to Elaine Belloc who is omniscient apparently. He would smile as you hold a knife to his throat, because he already has a plan to make you stab yourself within four sentences. Dr. Doom, BatGod, and Lex Luthor would nod in appreciation.


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## Nep Heart (Mar 30, 2018)

Oi, this thread has gotten so out of control that even Gwyn went full throttle retard (and I am 99% sure he doesn't understand the direction of the new tiering system I am working on since he keeps treating it like the old one anyway). I almost regret my attempt at the tier revision I've been working on for the last several months. Keyword is almost.

 I'll get back to you guys with that when I'm not being distracted with MUGEN, Melty Blood and Puella Magi.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 30, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> You act like a feat such as tanking a blast meant to destroy creation is somehow less of a feat than LT did. WTH. What exactly do you think all of creation entails????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because he no-sold it. Look up what that phrase means. Moreover, Phoenix has no sold Omniversal threats, especially the Chaos Wave that was repeatedly resetting the Marvel Omniverse. Lucifer has not done that on LT’s level.


JuicyG said:


> Also Living Tribunal as far I know didn't exist before the Marvel verse was created, unlike Lucy who was there even before DC's verse was brought into creation.


This argument is fucking stupid. One it wouldn’t matter anyways. And two, yes he did. Excluding the stupid First Firmament retcon, LT absolutely predated the universe. He predated the Phoenix Force which booted up the Omniverse. So this argument is atrocious and doesn’t say anything about LT.


JuicyG said:


> He can basically do anything he wants with the essence of Creation itself, ranging from straightforward reality-warping to affecting the metaphorical and imaginary in bizarre ways.


LT can do that and more. Please stop talking about LT, you know jack and shit about him.


JuicyG said:


> Lucifer's greatest assets by far are his willpower, intelligence, and cunning. Being the character who he is, its not crazy to think that Lucy would completely outwit the Living Tribunal as he was able to do that to Elaine Belloc who is omniscient apparently.


Because the LT, who has knowledge over the entire Omniverse and has dealt with cosmic manipulators and tricksters is going to fall so easily to Lucifer’s manipulations. Quit with the fanfiction already.


JuicyG said:


> He would smile as you hold a knife to his throat, because he already has a plan to make you stab yourself within four sentences. Dr. Doom, BatGod, and Lex Luthor would nod in appreciation.


>putting Doom in the same sentence as Batman and Lex

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nep Heart (Mar 30, 2018)

Lol, Dr. Doom would bitchslap Lex Luthor and Bruce Wayne.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 30, 2018)

So the scans Juicy posted involves feats the LT would do no problem then, he goes on at length about Lucy's prep skills when none of that is applicable in a non scenario match...then continuing to lie about Marvels feats and ignoring the fact that lesser characters than LT have wielded universal reality altering and shaping powers?

Amps right this threads garbage and these chucklefucks need to go

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## shade0180 (Mar 30, 2018)

Seriously a lot of character have wielded the power to destroy the entire mega verse and them < LT.

Lucifer doing it doesn't change that him < LT..

So it's kind of pointless endeavor to show those kind of feat to prove that him < LT.

You need to have a more concrete evidence other than that to prove that Lucifer > LT

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> So the scans Juicy posted involves feats the LT would do no problem then



Post the scans and give us the proof. You talk a big game about debating and resort to lesser tactics, undermining facts, then follow with your own garbage with zero substance pertaining to it. 





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> , he goes on at length about Lucy's prep skills when none of that is applicable in a non scenario match



And exactly what skills have I been posting about that are considered "prep" exactly? 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ...then continuing to lie about Marvels feats



Quote my "lie" please or stop with your bullshit



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> and ignoring the fact that lesser characters than LT have wielded universal reality altering and shaping powers?



No character, especially below LT, has creation altering abilities to the extent of Lucifer Morningstar. If so, proof your shit or stop blabbering on about what you think you know

@Imakarum Mirabilis 

I obviously didn't try to compare Doom to Luthor, by the extent of their abilities. Unlike your cringe worthy post actually trying to compare Adam Warlock to Lucifer Morningstar, give me a break. 


Also to you both. Stop with trying to defend LT, then proceed to saying he beats LM without telling us all how he manages such a thing. You are not being debaters at all.

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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> You need to have a more concrete evidence other than that to prove that Lucifer > LT



Its not only my responsbility to prove that LM is > LT. Not once has anybody gave the reverse logic and showed how LT beats LM. Just saying Lucifer doesn't win is not good enough. Tell me why he doesn't win.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## shade0180 (Mar 30, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Its not only my responsbility to prove that LM is > LT. NJust saying Lucifer doesn't win is not good enough. Tell me why he doesn't win.


yes, you aren't the only one. But, it is your argument to prove it so you need to do so on your own or find a compatriot that is willing to help you prove your point. It isn't on us to prove your point.



> ot once has anybody gave the reverse logic and showed how LT beats LM.



Except they did... you ignored it. not our problem.

 The site have proved that LT is above any fucker that can casually destroy and recreate the whole megaverse. that's literally what you are trying to argue against.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 30, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Post the scans and give us the proof. You talk a big game about debating and resort to lesser tactics, undermining facts, then follow with your own garbage with zero substance pertaining to it.


I already posted the scans for you dingus. Address them.


JuicyG said:


> And exactly what skills have I been posting about that are considered "prep" exactly?


Using his charisma and manipulation counts as prep 


JuicyG said:


> Quote my "lie" please or stop with your bullshit


“LT didn’t predate creation” would be one


JuicyG said:


> No character, especially below LT, has creation altering abilities to the extent of Lucifer Morningstar. If so, proof your shit or stop blabbering on about what you think you know


Phoenix Force, Mad Jim Jaspers, House of M Wanda and so many more absolutely do. Stop lying.


JuicyG said:


> @Imakarum Mirabilis
> 
> I obviously didn't try to compare Doom to Luthor, by the extent of their abilities. Unlike your cringe worthy post actually trying to compare Adam Warlock to Lucifer Morningstar, give me a break.


Adam Warlock has fucking played cosmic beings for fools. That’s pretty close to Lucifer’s manipulation skills. And that’s not not even mentioning the Dweller in Darkness and how he tried and failed to pull one over on the LT. If he couldn’t do it, Lucifer ain’t doing it either.


JuicyG said:


> Also to you both. *Stop with trying to defend LT,* then proceed to saying he beats LM without telling us all how he manages such a thing. You are not being debaters at all.


Well gee I guess I have to roll over and say LT loses to appease your ego. Fuck off, this is a debate.

Also I did repeatedly state LT’s feats but you’ve failed to address them. Don’t put your fingers in your ears you goddamn liar.


JuicyG said:


> Its not only my responsbility to prove that LM is > LT.


Yes it is, it’s called debating you mong


JuicyG said:


> Not once has anybody gave the reverse logic and showed how LT beats LM.


Yes I have. Goddamn, I think even my fish knows my reasoning.


JuicyG said:


> Just saying Lucifer doesn't win is not good enough. Tell me why he doesn't win.


>mentions the M’Kraan Crystal and Chaos Wave feats and how Phoenix and LT reacted to them
>gets ignored and going on tangents about Lucifer’s manipulation skills
>Danger Dong tries to downplay Phoenix using the Source Wall because it’s vaguely similar to Phoenix

Yeah no, fuck off you goddamn liar. You haven’t posted shit of how Lucy wins while I have been doing nothing but arguing my point. Put up or shut up. Actually just shut up you inept debater.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 30, 2018)

This thread is shit, but to be fair, @Imakarum Mirabilis didnt you say a couple months ago that the Mansions of Silence shenanigans was above Phoenix's feat of stopping the Chaos Wave?


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 30, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> This thread is shit, but to be fair, @Imakarum Mirabilis didnt you say a couple months ago that the Mansions of Silence shenanigans was above Phoenix's feat of stopping the Chaos Wave?


I looked at that feat again and realized that it was resetting the Omniverse over and over again and the Phoenix wasn’t affected by it. Phoenix countered its effects which goes to show how below it is compared to her.

Which is close to the Mansions of Silence feat. And LT > Phoenix.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 30, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I looked at that feat again and realized that it was resetting the Omniverse over and over again and the Phoenix wasn’t affected by it. Phoenix countered its effects which goes to show how below it is compared to her.
> 
> Which is close to the Mansions of Silence feat. And LT > Phoenix.


You already post the panels in this thread? Might have to wade through some of the shit in the past few pages 

So you think the Chaos Wave stuff would be just a step below the MoS feat? Have a feeling this would be better discussed on Discord without the flailing of some posters to detract from the discussion, though 

The Logoz feat might be up there too tbh. I need to look into it some more


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 30, 2018)

@Imakarum Mirabilis mind posting LT feats

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 30, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> You already post the panels in this thread? Might have to wade through some of the shit in the past few pages
> 
> So you think the Chaos Wave stuff would be just a step below the MoS feat? Have a feeling this would be better discussed on Discord without the flailing of some posters to detract from the discussion, though
> 
> The Logoz feat might be up there too tbh. I need to look into it some more


I dunno how it stacks up to the MoS feat now that I think about it.

I mean tanking something that was destroying and recreating the Omniverse over and over again is nuts.


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## HouseScarlet (Mar 30, 2018)

Ampchu said:


> Lol, Dr. Doom would bitchslap Lex Luthor and Bruce Wayne.



Nah, he'd Foot Dive them ningens, wouldn't want to dirty his hands. He needs them for when he snaps Cyclops' neck.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Iwandesu (Mar 30, 2018)

>This thread

Reactions: Funny 2


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

@shade0180 



"Except they did... you ignored it. not our problem"

One feat of durability that may or may not be better than LM's best feat is not a very good case. Try again.

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## Blakk Jakk (Mar 30, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> One feat of durability that may or may not be better than LM's best feat is not a very good case. Try again.




This is exactly what we mean when we say you ignore our posts. “Oh it doesn’t look strong so it must not be.” What a great way of debating

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Atem (Mar 30, 2018)

Ampchu said:


> Oi, this thread has gotten so out of control that even Gwyn went full throttle retard (and I am 99% sure he doesn't understand the direction of the new tiering system I am working on since he keeps treating it like the old one anyway). I almost regret my attempt at the tier revision I've been working on for the last several months. Keyword is almost.
> 
> I'll get back to you guys with that when I'm not being distracted with MUGEN, Melty Blood and Puella Magi.



I been using the old one since we haven't switched to the new one yet as far as I know. Besides that, the new one is going to be subject to a lot of scrutiny. Since these things are not going to be clear cut when we are dealing with things this obscene in terms of scale, and scope. Just saying but I am not sure if everyone is going to accept it. If how it is defined is not something that can be easily used, and understood. Which is part of the reason you should hurry up, and post that essay you have been working on.

@JuicyG 

@Huey Freeman 

Ampchu wasn't agreeing with either of you too.  He thinks you are retards as well.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 30, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Post the scans and give us the proof. You talk a big game about debating and resort to lesser tactics, undermining facts, then follow with your own garbage with zero substance pertaining to it.



We've been discussing these feats, for the entire duration of this thread. That you deliberately ignore them does not alter this fact. 



JuicyG said:


> And exactly what skills have I been posting about that are considered "prep" exactly?



Claiming that he is going to out manipulate the LT, claiming that he will have plans hatched to counter the LT, claiming his skills at deception will matter in a non scenario match,.



JuicyG said:


> Quote my "lie" please or stop with your bullshit



claiming the LT lacks control over reality the same way Lucifer does, when he's operating at similar if not higher scale without requiring an external power source, claiming LSM has better feats, claiming one or two multiversal feats were omniversal and so on.




JuicyG said:


> No character, especially below LT, has creation altering abilities to the extent of Lucifer Morningstar. If so, proof your shit or stop blabbering on about what you think you know



And as usual, you'd be wrong, to the point where I named several which did. Your problem is, as it always is with people like you. You don't really know how to read, you don't really care about data or knowledge all you care about are your opinions and you'll dismiss and block facts that contradict those opinions. You back that up with childish posturing and hope no one really pays attention so you look better.

But you're a subpar user, a poor debater and ultimately a terrible addition to this site and that'll all you'll ever be. So maybe you should stop babbling about things you don't know.


JuicyG said:


> Also to you both. Stop with trying to defend LT, then proceed to saying he beats LM without telling us all how he manages such a thing. You are not being debaters at all.



Again this would be a textbook case of stonewalling and should be a bannable offense.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> We've been discussing these feats, for the entire duration of this thread. That you deliberately ignore them does not alter this fact.



The most you, specifically you have done, is waste my time. I seriously have not seen one panel, or proof that makes Living Tribunal above Lucifer Morningstar. I suspect I never will get that from you.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Claiming that he is going to out manipulate the LT, claiming that he will have plans hatched to counter the LT, claiming his skills at deception will matter in a non scenario match,.



Lucifer has been shown the cunning to have characters like Elaine Belloc question and wonder about his motives, despite being omniscient herself. No reason to suggest the for some reason Lucifer isn't able to at least in some degree manipulate LT. Don't agree? Then post a fucking scan to show a great feat of resistance to this. I already posted a scan. You claim bullshit such as saying that I ignore you debate points, and then you purposely ignore mine.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> claiming the LT lacks control over reality the same way Lucifer does, when he's operating at similar if not higher scale without requiring an external power source, claiming LSM has better feats, claiming one or two multiversal feats were omniversal and so on.





Post a scan. I showed where Lucifer has been compared directly to the Presence in this aspect. Show me where LT has had the same praise...Post a scan. You too @Imakarum Mirabilis , Although I highly doubt you will or even can. So much for these "debaters"





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> You don't really know how to read, you don't really care about data or knowledge all you care about are your opinions and you'll dismiss and block facts that contradict those opinions.



Speak for yourself and you'd be right, kid.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> But you're a subpar user, a poor debater and ultimately a terrible addition to this site and that'll all you'll ever be. So maybe you should stop babbling about things you don't know.



This ^ This right here is what you do best. Degrade others while providing nothing at all substantial to the debate, nothing at all. You're literally not needed for this debate.






Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> This is exactly what we mean when we say you ignore our posts. “Oh it doesn’t look strong so it must not be.” What a great way of debating



You post a durability feat for LT, and you think that automatically makes him the victor. Despite the multiple feats that I have posted of LM, one of which includes a durability feat on that scale himself. Do Better!




Elric of Melniboné said:


> @JuicyG
> 
> @Huey Freeman
> 
> Ampchu wasn't agreeing with either of you too.  He thinks you are retards as well.



And I should care about personal opinions of people who don't know me and never will, over a subject in which they have hardly contributed to? Seriously, what a joke. Get at me when you have something to say that actually matters to the thread.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> We've been discussing these feats, for the entire duration of this thread. That you deliberately ignore them does not alter this fact.


U gave literally 1 fucking feat and I addressed it several times now. Talk about "deliberately ignoring" shit.




On the topic of durability (since thats all these guys have got apparently). Ive stated that Lucifer has tanked a blast every bit as powerful as the one thats been "described" here for LT. But as an actual debater, I will post the fucking scan. ---

Edit: Lucifers manipulation has never been shown require any sort of "prep" at all. His will, his imagination, is all that is needed to control all of creation. Or destroy all of creation. Its on his whim. Maybe thats why Gaberial compared him to "being like the Presence" - The same archangel who thought Lucifer killed the Presence (a triple Omniscient Omnipotent Omnipresent being) (repeating myself already..geez)







Claudio Swiss said:


> @Imakarum Mirabilis mind posting LT feats

Reactions: Winner 1 | Neutral 1 | Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

Instead of posting your _subjective _nonsense. Make this debate worth its time by backing up your claims (by means of posting the scans), by dissecting my points I've listed for the feats of Lucifer Morningstar and how they _might _compare to LT. That is when shit becomes _objective_, rather.

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## Atem (Mar 30, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> And I should care about personal opinions of people who don't know me and never will, over a subject in which they have hardly contributed to? Seriously, what a joke. Get at me when you have something to say that actually matters to the thread.



No, I am saying that because it's quite clear you did care about his opinion and thought he was agreeing with the both of you.



He thinks you are idiots too. I just wanted to make that clear to you. Since Ampchu knows better than to side with either of you. Also, I wanted to burst your bubble and make you feel sad. I think I have succeeded with how defensive you have suddenly become.

"I-I don't care about t-that baka's opinion."

That is you, right now.

Already supported my side of the argument in spades.

@Ampchu

I think he thirsts for your magic wand, Ampchu. Watch out he might be a stalker, or Tony now that I think about it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Ningen 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> “LT didn’t predate creation” would be one



The fact that *I have to address your lie is sad*. I have to because people will just simply take your word for it. What I stated word by word..



JuicyG said:


> Also Living Tribunal as far I know didn't exist before the Marvel verse was created,



I said as far I knew (which apparently I have have mistaken but then again you didnt post a scan, so the real debater here will have to)

Dr Strange states the the Living Tribunal is as old as time. Time starts when creation begins. Therefor, by logic, LT does not predate all of creation. Don;t agree? Post a counter scan...I doubt you can or will.






Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Phoenix Force, Mad Jim Jaspers, House of M Wanda and so many more absolutely do. Stop lying.



Blasphemous and utter bullshit. Post a scan and prove it

Reactions: Winner 2 | Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> No, I am saying that because it's quite clear you did care about his opinion and thought he was agreeing with the both of you.



I dont really care who agree with me. What i concern myself with is proof. Evidence. Scans. This here is wasting time. And more importantly wasting my time.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 30, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> The most you, specifically you have done, is waste my time. I seriously have not seen one panel, or proof that makes Living Tribunal above Lucifer Morningstar. I suspect I never will get that from you.]



Because the scenes I'm discussing _should be common knowledge, _because the debate component of this place is sorely lacking and I'm not going to resort to babbling off to wiki's, hurling scans at you when you have zero interest in reading anything, or good faith debating and frankly, because enough info is given.




JuicyG said:


> Lucifer has been shown the cunning to have characters like Elaine Belloc question and wonder about his motives, despite being omniscient herself. No reason to suggest the for some reason Lucifer isn't able to at least in some degree manipulate LT. Don't agree? Then post a fucking scan to show a great feat of resistance to this. I already posted a scan. You claim bullshit such as saying that I ignore you debate points, and then you purposely ignore mine.



What the fuck does this have to do with a god damn vs match where prep time isn't on the table?







JuicyG said:


> Post a scan. I showed where Lucifer has been compared directly to the Presence in this aspect. Show me where LT has had the same praise...Post a scan.



My response to that? Fuck statements and any user dumb enough to base their entire argument around dialog when feats don't fucking back that up.



JuicyG said:


> You too @Imakarum Mirabilis , Although I highly doubt you will or even can. So much for these "debaters"



y'know your incredibly thin veil of feinged superiority doesn't actually impress anyone nor make you look like anything other than a lying dumbass whose knee jerking because he got his ass handed to him across multiple threads due to being unable to read properly or really know much?






JuicyG said:


> Speak for yourself and you'd be right, kid.



the kid thing is especially terrible, its the kind of lame ass posturing that reminds me of a user who ended up admitting he was fucked by his father after I backed him into a corner and brow beat him with his own facade until he had a mini break down. i wonder...will the same thing happen here?

If we continue to push you, what mental defects and past traumas will we rhetorically beat out of you?



JuicyG said:


> This ^ This right here is what you do best. Degrade others while providing nothing at all substantial to the debate, nothing at all. You're literally not needed for this debate.



I actually spent about two pages having constructive discussion about that, but hey ignore everything we covered there and knee jerk. And for the record, I'll happily degrade you...I don't think you belong here and since the mods wont remove your dumbass, its up to the userbase to make it unwelcoming as fuck for you.

And congrats, we are now at that passage.




JuicyG said:


> You post a durability feat for LT, and you think that automatically makes him the victor. Despite the multiple feats that I have posted of LM, one of which includes a durability feat on that scale himself. Do Better!



you mean besides the fact that he towers above omniversal reality warpers?




JuicyG said:


> And I should care about personal opinions of people who don't know me and never will, over a subject in which they have hardly contributed to? Seriously, what a joke. Get at me when you have something to say that actually matters to the thread.



I mean, if this were true, you'd have posted your views and fucked off once you realized the situation was untenable so.


JuicyG said:


> U gave literally 1 fucking feat and I addressed it several times now. Talk about "deliberately ignoring" shit.



Beyond lying, we're now using chatspeak?



JuicyG said:


> On the topic of durability (since thats all these guys have got apparently). Ive stated that Lucifer has tanked a blast every bit as powerful as the one thats been "described" here for LT. But as an actual debater, I will post the fucking scan. ---



I mean if you're going to refer to the war for the doorway and his multiverse gambit...no

I also find it amusing that supposed multiversal and universal tier angels were taken out by a Door Fetus...powered by inferior gods but whatever.



JuicyG said:


> Edit: Lucifers manipulation has never been shown require any sort of "prep" at all. His will, his imagination, is all that is needed to control all of creation. Or destroy all of creation. Its on his whim. Maybe thats why Gaberial compared him to "being like the Presence" - The same archangel who thought Lucifer killed the Presence (a triple Omniscient Omnipotent Omnipresent being) (repeating myself already..geez)



ahh the Doorway war, yes, I knew you'd go there

funny but that isn't an omniverse no matter what you wanna claim. DCtards have been claiming that shit for ages but its not, its a megaverse at best and impressive to be sure...but there's a reason why even the hardest Vertigo fans used to flame people for claiming Lucy could one shot Mxy for example.





Elric of Melniboné said:


> No, I am saying that because it's quite clear you did care about his opinion and thought he was agreeing with the both of you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



oh look, another Nik Hasta thirsting for fuckers while claiming he hates them...I've got another one it seems and so does Gwyn and Amp 

For the record



JuicyG said:


> And I should care about personal opinions of people who don't know me and never will, over a subject in which they have hardly contributed to? Seriously, what a joke. Get at me when you have something to say that actually matters to the thread.



Fucking called it you thin skinned manchild.



JuicyG said:


> The fact that *I have to address your lie is sad*. I have to because people will just simply take your word for it. What I stated word by word..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




> using hyperbolic descriptive language by a character as if its a defining and objective statement

> somehow thinks this contradicts the scene where the LT recreated the entire omniverse after the dweller and the Shi'ar blew it up




edit- Also Amp just tossing it out here...I'm probably gonna never use your tiering system ever and might end up trying to get its use in the OBD banned

I really, really hate things that attempt to streamline debates, they always, always get perverted to feed the agenda of trolls and dipshits...and they always hurt the forums not help.

all my love in the world man but the OBD needs to return to a more primal way of debating..this shit has done nothing but make things worse.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 30, 2018)

@The Immortal WatchDog All that blabble..and like I suspected, not a single scan to back up your tough talk. Your opinions (thats what they're until _you give proof_ of SOMETHING, anything), dont register with me any longer.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 30, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> @The Immortal WatchDog All that blabble..and like I suspected, not a single scan to back up your tough talk. Your opinions (thats what they're until _you give proof_ of SOMETHING, anything), dont register with me any longer.



So basically, you're going to continue to ignore the points raised by posters, fail to actually read the scans you're posting and continue to torpedo your own arguments?

Fine by me, far be it for me to stop someone from committing suicide.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 30, 2018)

Also, we legit need to have a conversation about all these tier systems and Amps new stuff

because that will not end well at all.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 30, 2018)

I feel like we're seeing some staggering moral cowardice here from certain parties that aren't actually participating.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shazam (Mar 30, 2018)

From what im reading, @JuicyG has posted some serious points that are backed my panels. There needs to be a counter panel posting for feats of LIving Tribunal to show how he trumps Lucifer here. Otherwise Juicy seems to be right that Lucifer can take out pretty much all of marvel

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## The Runner (Mar 31, 2018)

this thread is gay

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 31, 2018)

Sir Jogga said:


> this thread is gay



It should have been closed a long time ago, yes.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Shazam (Mar 31, 2018)

Sir Jogga said:


> this thread is gay



Gay as in happy? Lol

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 31, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> It should have been closed a long time ago, yes.



If anything, it needs closed because you litreally cannot post a scan that back up your claims to save your life. 

You've been beat.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## The Runner (Mar 31, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> If anything, it needs closed because you litreally cannot post a scan that back up your claims to save your life.
> 
> You've been beat.


Scans have been posted

You haven't added anything to the conversation and it's honestly dragging

"You've been beat"- seriously? You're going with the twelve year old in a YouTube Comment section approach?

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## The Runner (Mar 31, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Gay as in happy? Lol


No

gay as in this thread is faggy

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 31, 2018)

Sir Jogga said:


> Scans have been posted
> 
> You haven't added anything to the conversation and it's honestly dragging
> 
> "You've been beat"- seriously? You're going with the twelve year old in a YouTube Comment section approach?



3 scans have been posted by those siding for LT. 2 of which aren't even scans of LT at all. Save me your baseless thoughts.

My scans back up my claims at least. If anything you're helping them drag this out.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Shazam (Mar 31, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> It should have been closed a long time ago, yes.





Sir Jogga said:


> No
> 
> gay as in this thread is faggy



Sensing some homophobic behavior here

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## The Runner (Mar 31, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> 3 scans have been posted by those siding for LT. 2 of which aren't even scans of LT at all. Save me your baseless thoughts.
> 
> My scans back up my claims at least. If anything you're helping them drag this out.



"Baseless thoughts" 

Kek, is that the best you can do? 

Just biding my time until the thread is closed


Shazam said:


> Sensing some homophobic behavior here


Really? With the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) shit?

how terrible

Reactions: Like 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 31, 2018)

Sir Jogga said:


> "Baseless thoughts"



*Definition:*


> without foundation in fact.


 *Example:*


> baseless allegations



Fits you perfectly. 

Stating that I haven't added anything to the discussion (_although I have *several *relevant scans_), despite the actual fact that you, yourself, have added *zero *contribution.

Why are you here?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## The Runner (Mar 31, 2018)

Literally already explained in the reply

Once again, you can't take your time to read because you're so emotional about this

Reactions: Winner 1 | Ningen 1


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## The Runner (Mar 31, 2018)

Btw I didn't make fun of your "Baseless thoughts" bullshit because it didn't make sense

I made fun of it because only a tryhard would string them together as some sort of rebuttal, pretending to sound smart

Reactions: Winner 1 | Ningen 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 31, 2018)

Sir Jogga said:


> Btw I didn't make fun of your "Baseless thoughts" bullshit because it didn't make sense
> 
> I made fun of it because only a tryhard would string them together as some sort of rebuttal, pretending to sound smart



Still here, and still nothing to contribute. How sad.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## The Runner (Mar 31, 2018)

Who cares? You certainly do.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Ningen 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 31, 2018)

At this point both of them are desperate to try anything to salvage their e pride and try and get the last word in a desperate attempt to appear right.

Its quite sad really, for someone who claims not to care, we really broke him bad.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Ningen 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 31, 2018)

Sir Jogga said:


> Who cares? You certainly do.





Sir Jogga said:


> this thread is gay





Sir Jogga said:


> No
> 
> gay as in this thread is faggy





Sir Jogga said:


> Literally already explained in the reply
> 
> Once again, you can't take your time to read because you're so emotional about this





Sir Jogga said:


> Who cares? You certainly do.



Maybe you should try reading the rules of the ;




> *1. Post constructively.*
> Please post constructively and avoid one liners such as 'lol luke skywalker stomps'. The whole point of the section is to have a _discussion_ and _debate_ of who you think would win in a match between two characters; if you're going to post in a thread that truly merits discussion, at least add one extra line of reasoning as to why to back it up. However, if the thread is legitimately one sided, then one liners will be accepted.





> *2. Stay on-topic.*
> Matches aren't Coversation threads, and they shouldn't be derailed into off-topic spam-fests. Reaction images, 'lolusername' or anything resembling not directly related to the match-up being discussed will be deleted, unless there's a line of substance in the post that's on-topic.



If you have _any information pertaining to the thread_. Please share, I will gladly address them. Otherwise you're wasting time being here.

*On-Topic:* Does the fact that LT needs an answer from himself means that anything he does should be considered with 'prep' ?

The lack of evidence from the side that is debating for The Living Tribunal seems to be an increasingly obvious sign of a concession (defeat).

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## The Runner (Mar 31, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> At this point both of them are desperate to try anything to salvage their e pride and try and get the last word in a desperate attempt to appear right.
> 
> Its quite sad really, for someone who claims not to care, we really broke him bad.


I like how he's trying so hard that he's resorting to OBD rules that haven't been taken seriously for years, just to deflect from the fact that he's been playing the same shit as I have.



JuicyG said:


> The lack of evidence from the side that is debating for The Living Tribunal seems to be an increasingly obvious sign of a concession (defeat).


No one cares. They don't want to argue with you. Take it as a win and move on with your life.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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