# 3 Eyed Madara vs Adult Sasuke



## YonkoDrippy (Jan 3, 2023)

Who is the strongest Uchiha



VS


*Manga Knowledge 
Restrictions*: None


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## Goku (Jan 3, 2023)

Sasuke's Space-Time Portal followed by an Amenotejikara blindside would immediately BFR Madara.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Kage 1 | Disagree 2


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## Ludi (Jan 3, 2023)

Probably Sasuke, before he lost his Rinnegan

Reactions: Winner 2 | Optimistic 2


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## Wolfgang (Jan 3, 2023)

Adult Rinnegan Sasuke is more comparable to Rinnegan Madara without the juubi amplification.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 1 | Neutral 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## ARGUS (Jan 3, 2023)

Madara mid diffs at most if we’re being generous
Shits on him if we’re being realistic

Reactions: Agree 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Fused (Jan 3, 2023)

What a fucking stomp in Madara's favour.

What is a guy with only one Rinnegan, only one arm, and no Six Paths Sage Mode going to do against Limbo?

Nothing, ofc.

Limbo decapitates this garbage.

You insult Madara by putting him against a cripple. What can a dude with only one arm do against a God? This match-up is insulting to Madara.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Lewd 2


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## TheNirou (Jan 3, 2023)

DRSM Madara is enough against adult Sasuke.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 4


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 3, 2023)

Fused said:


> What a fucking stomp in Madara's favour.
> 
> What is a guy with only one Rinnegan, only one arm, and no Six Paths Sage Mode going to do against Limbo?
> 
> ...


All this to get solod by a black sludge lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 3, 2023)

Ignore what the Shippuden copers tell you

Adult Sasuke is tiers above this jobber

Its like comparing Zeno and the Grand Priest

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Perfect Susano (Jan 3, 2023)

If the author were writing the fight, Madara would win and the fight wouldn't be close. If Naruto isn't there as well with the duo having Yin/Yang seals, there is nothing to discuss.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Dislike 3


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## Baroxio (Jan 3, 2023)

Perfect Susano said:


> If the author were writing the fight, Madara would win and the fight wouldn't be close. If Naruto isn't there as well with the duo having Yin/Yang seals, there is nothing to discuss.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 5 | Lewd 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Jan 3, 2023)

Madara wasn’t even phased by that and he easily regened from it

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Perfect Susano (Jan 3, 2023)

A panel with no context means nothing. Madara let himself be cut in half, leveraging his immortality to escape to the Kamui dimension. The fact that Madara flung back the entirety of team 7 upon coming back in an identical scenario should obviously ring the alarm in people's head that you aren't interpreting this panel even close to correctly. Sasuke's stats are irrelevant.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Kage 1


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 3, 2023)

3RG JJ Madara >> 1RG JJ Madara >> DRSM Madara >=< Adult Sasuke according to feats and portrayal.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2


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## Baroxio (Jan 3, 2023)

Perfect Susano said:


> A panel with no context means nothing. Madara let himself be cut in half, leveraging his immortality to escape to the Kamui dimension. The fact that Madara flung back the entirety of team 7 upon coming back in an identical scenario should obviously ring the alarm in people's head that you aren't interpreting this panel even close to correctly. Sasuke's stats are irrelevant.


Oh, you want context? Here's the panel immediately before this:

It's Madara.
Praising Sasuke's speed.
Literally TO HIMSELF.

The implication is clear - Sasuke outspeeds Juubi-jinchuriki Madara.

Notably, Madara never attempts CQC again after this. Even after gaining all 3 rinnengan, his immediate move is to go on the defensive and buy time using numerous Limbo clones and Chibaku Tensei meteors. All so that he can buy time for Mugen Tsukuyomi.

If he thought he was strong enough to deal with Naruto and Sasuke, then he would have assured his victory over them first, and then finished the Mugen Tsukuyomi. But he wasn't confident that he would be able to do that, and thus instead relied on Mugen Tsukuyomi to finish things (not knowing that Sasuke would be immune).

By feats? Madara gets blitzed as he did in canon. The only issue is the fact that the Limbo clones can't take damage normally (barring senjutsu) because they're on another plane of existence. But unlike the Sasuke that fought Madara, this Sasuke can explicitly dimension hop, meaning he can literally just GO to Limbo physically and seal all of the clones there using instantaneous localized Chibaku Tensei like he did vs all of the Tailed Beasts simultaneously.

Hell, if we're talking about advantages that this Sasuke has over his younger self, this Sasuke can just use Shadow Clones, allowing him to focus on cutting down Madara directly while his clones engage with Madara's limbo clones. There are no feats that suggest that Madara can tango with Sasuke in CQC without Limbo Hengoku tipping the scales in his favor.

Reactions: Winner 7


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 3, 2023)

Madara shits

Reactions: Winner 2 | Kage 2


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## Unresponsive (Jan 3, 2023)

Adult Sasuke abuses

Reactions: Agree 2 | Lewd 2


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## Charisma (Jan 3, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> Oh, you want context? Here's the panel immediately before this:
> 
> It's Madara.
> Praising Sasuke's speed.
> ...


What about when Madara perception-blitzes Naruto and Sasuke to the point Naruto thinks he might have dodged because they don't know what happened, and they don't realize where he is until panels later? I think that's pretty fast.

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 3, 2023)

MaruUchiha said:


> Madara shits



I knew that deep down you were a follower of feats and portrayal too.  

I hope you've left the Madara downplay in the past, Maru.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Neutral 1


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## dergeist (Jan 3, 2023)

No version of Adukts or BV stands a chance against Shippuden monsters.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Fused (Jan 3, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> It's Madara.
> Praising Sasuke's speed.
> Literally TO HIMSELF.
> 
> The implication is clear - Sasuke outspeeds Juubi-jinchuriki Madara.


Okay, he out-speeds One-Eyed Juudara.

This proves that he can outspeed and defeat Peak Three-Eyed Juudara because.....???


Baroxio said:


> Notably, Madara never attempts CQC again after this.


Laughably proven wrong by the fact that, immediately after he returns from box land with his second Rinnegan, he stalemates the entire Team 7 with his Limbo without even moving a finger or facial muscle at all.


Baroxio said:


> Even after gaining all 3 rinnengan, his immediate move is to go on the defensive and buy time using numerous Limbo clones and Chibaku Tensei meteors


1) He did all of this before awakening the Rinnesharingan;

2) He was literally the guy on the offensive.... The guy who fired dozens of Chibaku Tensei at the planet was the guy on the defensive? What even is this take, you completely misunderstood everything about that scene 


And for the record, it's true that Madara never really cared about fighting Fate Bros directly, but not for the reason you have in mind. It's because, as per his own admission, Team 7 was just a "sideshow" to him (the exact word he used to describe Team 7).

So, he didn't fight them for the exact opposite reason than the one you have in mind: they were too fodder to warrant his attention. 


Good job completely misunderstanding the children's comic. 


Baroxio said:


> All so that he can buy time for Mugen Tsukuyomi.


You mean for the plan he had been working on for countless decades?


Baroxio said:


> If he thought he was strong enough to deal with Naruto and Sasuke, then he would have assured his victory over them first, and then finished the Mugen Tsukuyomi


As per his own admission, Team 7 was nothing more than a sideshow. Why would he kill them before completing his MAIN OBJECTIVE, which is CASTING THE INFINITE TSUKUYOMI? The plan he worked on for like 90 years?

You still don't get it. Naruto and Sasuke were not worthy of even being the "Main show" in Madara's eyes. They were nothing more than a sideshow.

When Madara actually achieved his main goal, the Infinite Tsukuyomi, he calmly stated that he would end Naruto and Sasuke.




Baroxio said:


> (not knowing that Sasuke would be immune).


And when he discovers that Team 7 survived, he literally doesn't give shit and calmly states that he will finish them.

Did you actually read the Manga? You're literally making mistakes everywhere. Every single point you tried to bring up is easily disproven by the Manga.

You act like Team7 had Dual-Eyed Juudara on the run, when it's the exact opposite and Juudara had them locked both on the ground and aerially. You act like Madara was scared of Team7 and that's why he used IT first, when it's the exact opposite. He thought Team 7 was a waste of time and IT was the real priority. Then you think Sasuke being immune is meant to have shaken or surprised Madara in any way, when Madara literally didn't give a shit and calmly prepared himself to finish them.

You misunderstood everything about that entire segment of the War arc. The Story said one thing, you understood the complete opposite. There's not much left to say.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 3, 2023)

Soldierofficial said:


> I knew that deep down you were a follower of feats and portrayal too.
> 
> I hope you've left the Madara downplay in the past, Maru.


 It seems we've become more aligned these days Lewd Man.. Perhaps we have a common enemy

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 3, 2023)

Sasuke bootyclaps

Ameno was a proven blitz tactic 3 times over when used by a much slower Sasuke on faster and more reactive people than Madara is 

Sasukes stats are > his PS which are >>> Madaras CTs which are >>>>>>> his own stats, Sasuke bullies when it comes to CQC

Sasukes immune to mugen so Madara cant do shit there

Limbos a joke as Sasuke can see and seal them neg diff. Not to mention he can simply counter with over double the amount of Kage Bunshin that would all be > Madara in stats as well.

Sasukes Ninjutsu nukes are >>> anything Madara has even regarding just his WA feats and scaling 

And Sasuke can entirely neg Madaras immortality even if we assume its strong enough to allow him to live hits from someone HILARIOUSLY above him in stats thanks to BFR.

Reactions: Like 1 | Kage 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 3


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## qwrty (Jan 3, 2023)

Goku said:


> Sasuke's Space-Time Portal followed by an Amenotejikara blindside would immediately BFR Madara.


this

bfr is madara krytponite


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## Perfect Susano (Jan 3, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> Oh, you want context? Here's the panel immediately before this:
> 
> It's Madara.
> Praising Sasuke's speed.
> ...


The literal meaning of the scene is that Sasuke caught up to Madara after he removed Kakashi's eye and is simply standing there, but before he teleported. Madara is acknowledging that Sasuke did this quickly. That's it. Him out-speeding Madara is fanfiction.


Baroxio said:


> Notably, Madara never attempts CQC again after this. Even after gaining all 3 rinnengan, his immediate move is to go on the defensive and buy time using numerous Limbo clones and Chibaku Tensei meteors. All so that he can buy time for Mugen Tsukuyomi.
> 
> If he thought he was strong enough to deal with Naruto and Sasuke, then he would have assured his victory over them first, and then finished the Mugen Tsukuyomi. But he wasn't confident that he would be able to do that, and thus instead relied on Mugen Tsukuyomi to finish things (not knowing that Sasuke would be immune).
> 
> ...


Madara not attempting cqc doesn't mean that he's blitz fodder for Naruto/Sasuke. Makes no sense. The Limbo counter you brought up for Sasuke is fanfiction.

Madara didn't fight Naruto/Sasuke because he deemed them a waste of time as he stated himself and he rather just accomplish his goal.

If Sasuke can't blitz Base Naruto, then he can't blitz Madara whom has stat parity with RSM Naruto. The stat parity argument doesn't even need to be brought up though since it's clear that a blitz didn't even occur to anyone reading the scene properly. Honestly your camp doesn't even have evidence that Rinnegan Sasuke is>EMS Sasuke in any statistical category. That's why you're clinging to this scene for dear life and willfully misinterpreting it.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Baroxio (Jan 3, 2023)

Fused said:


> Okay, he out-speeds One-Eyed Juudara.
> 
> This proves that he can outspeed and defeat Peak Three-Eyed Juudara because.....???
> 
> ...


Limbo Hengoku =/= Speed
Limbo Hengoku =/= CQC

Madara using Limbo Hengoku to rebuff Sasuke and Naruto does not equate to him being able to handle Sasuke's speed on his own, since Sasuke can cut him easily, but basically can't touch Limbo clones. Limbo clones are immune to being sliced by Sasuke and can thus block everything he does -  the regular Madara isn't immune to shit from Sasuke and thus cannot block shit. 

Limbo is the only thing Madara has that prevents him from getting absolutely shit wrecked. If Sasuke can use clones and each clone can slice Madara, then all he needs is enough clones to preoccupy Madara's Limbo clones and then he's free to do whatever he wants to the main body. 

Aside from Limbo, what can Madara actually do to stop him? Spam meteors that canonically aren't a threat to Sasuke in the slightest? Use Infinite Tsukuyomi that Sasuke is canonically immune to? Fire off ninjutsu that Sasuke's already canonically dodged with ease? Run away like a bitch?

Seriously, explain to me how Madara actually continues this fight in a way that doesn't devolve down to "use Limbo and hope Sasuke can't break through," cuz I don't see how Madara was planning on continuing the fight with the shit he actually showed in canon if he didn't get Black Zetsu'd.


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## Fused (Jan 3, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> Limbo Hengoku =/= Speed
> Limbo Hengoku =/= CQC


Yet, in the previous scene to your famous "Sasuke blitzed Madara omggg!!!" scene, Madara switched with Limbo so quickly that he blitzed Naruto's and Sasuke's perceptions to the point that Sasuke thought he dodged.

And his Limbo engaged with RSM Naruto's clones in CQC.


Baroxio said:


> Madara using Limbo Hengoku to rebuff Sasuke and Naruto does not equate to him being able to handle Sasuke's speed on his own


And Sasuke outspeeding One-Eyed Juudara doesn't mean he can do the same to Peak Three-Eyed Juudara who expanded his powers tremendously by getting the second Rinnegan, thus completing the pair, and the Rinnesharingan.


Baroxio said:


> since Sasuke can cut him easily,


Madara is immortal so this is irrelevant to him. Sasuke is not beating him by just cutting him in half.


Baroxio said:


> Limbo clones are immune to being sliced by Sasuke and can thus block everything he does


Then you concede that Sasuke loses because he has no counter whatsoever to Limbo, concession accepted.


Baroxio said:


> he regular Madara isn't immune to shit from Sasuke and thus cannot block shit.


He is immune to all of Sasuke's ninjutsu thanks to Preta Path, he is immune to genjutsu due to his own Rinnegan. The only way Sasuke will ever damage him is with taijutsu or senjutsu. So, huh, Yes, Madara is immune to a lot of shit from Sasuke and he will block all of his attacks with Limbo.


Baroxio said:


> Limbo is the only thing Madara has that prevents him from getting absolutely shit wrecked. If Sasuke can use clones and each clone can slice Madara, then all he needs is enough clones to preoccupy Madara's Limbo clones and then he's free to do whatever he wants to the main body.


LMFAO, still on that desperate copium that one outlier against One-Eyed Juudara means that he can destroy Peak Three-Eyed Juudara? 


Baroxio said:


> Aside from Limbo, what can Madara actually do to stop him?


Yet you haven't explained what Sasuke does at all, all you've done so far is stonewall and blatantly misinterpret the manga.

Sasuke cannot seal Madara on his own, thus he literally doesn't have a win condition at all.

At worst, Madara will simply outlast via Immortality.


Baroxio said:


> Spam meteors that canonically aren't a threat to Sasuke in the slightest


They weren't supposed to threaten Sasuke's life, they were supposed to keep him busy.


Baroxio said:


> Fire off ninjutsu that Sasuke's already canonically dodged with ease? Run away like a bitch?


Bully Sasuke with 4 Limbo clones that he will never have the chance of affecting in any way?


Baroxio said:


> Seriously, explain to me how Madara actually continues this fight in a way that doesn't devolve down to "use Limbo and hope Sasuke can't break through,"


He doesn't need to "hope" for anything, Sasuke objectively and factually will not break through ever, and Limbo is one of his greatest assets, so ofc he'll use it in the fight 


It is you who still haven't explained how Sasuke defeats Madara, and No, a blatant misinterpretation of that panel is not an explanation at all.




> cuz I don't see how Madara was planning on continuing the fight with the shit he actually showed in canon if he didn't get Black Zetsu'd.



The Fate Bros literally did nothing to him after he got his second Rinnegan back. They did not lay a single scratch on his body.


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## Baroxio (Jan 3, 2023)

Fused said:


> Yet, in the previous scene to your famous "Sasuke blitzed Madara omggg!!!" scene, Madara switched with Limbo so quickly that he blitzed Naruto's and Sasuke's perceptions to the point that Sasuke thought he dodged.


"Blitz their perceptions my ass. They realized immediately that he switched places with a clone. They were just focused on sealing the Limbo clone. Hence why Sasuke specified that Naruto should use a Sage jutsu that seals movement immediately prior. The clone coming out was a possibility he was prepared for, and already basically countered.


Fused said:


> And his Limbo engaged with RSM Naruto's clones in CQC.


Naruto's clones literally can't even see the Limbo clones. The fact that Naruto's clones can do so well despite only getting a bare sense of what he's fighting is a testament to Naruto and a demerit to Madara.


Fused said:


> And Sasuke outspeeding One-Eyed Juudara doesn't mean he can do the same to Peak Three-Eyed Juudara who expanded his powers tremendously by getting the second Rinnegan, thus completing the pair, and the Rinnesharingan.


Prove this. We know what the Rinnengan can do and "physical speed" clearly isn't in it's power set as we can see from Nagato -  a mostly mediocre ninja with OP ninjutsu abilities.

No one is denying that Madara's powers grew overall as a result of gaining the complete Rinnengan. What remains to be seen however is how this translates to a substantial increase in speed that can prevent his ass from getting blitzed and/or cut in half again. Especially given the fact that it would have to be a more substantial increase to physical speed than something like, oh, I dunno, BEING A JUUBI JINCHURIKI.


Fused said:


> Then you concede that Sasuke loses because he has no counter whatsoever to Limbo, concession accepted.
> He is immune to all of Sasuke's ninjutsu thanks to Preta Path, he is immune to genjutsu due to his own Rinnegan. The only way Sasuke will ever damage him is with taijutsu or senjutsu. So, huh, Yes, Madara is immune to a lot of shit from Sasuke and he will block all of his attacks with Limbo.


Sasuke doesn't need to do shit to Limbo in order to kill Madara. Madara had a Limbo clone out when Sasuke sliced him in two; all Sasuke needs to do is attack Madara with more Shadow clones than his Limbo clones can handle. Ninjutsu isn't necessary. Genjutsu isn't necessary. Sasuke beats Juubidara 1v1 in Taijutsu and that's canonical no matter how much you whine. Pre-Adult Sasuke might have trouble breaking through Limbo, but not this version of Sasuke.


Fused said:


> Madara is immortal so this is irrelevant to him. Sasuke is not beating him by just cutting him in half.





Fused said:


> Yet you haven't explained what Sasuke does at all, all you've done so far is stonewall and blatantly misinterpret the manga.
> 
> Sasuke cannot seal Madara on his own, thus he literally doesn't have a win condition at all.
> 
> At worst, Madara will simply outlast via Immortality.


Hidan was also immortal. But once his head was cut off there wasn't a whole lot he could do, now was there? Even if Madara regenerates, Sasuke can just seal him in another Chibaku Tensei before then.

Hell, Sasuke actually has a number of ways to deal with Madara, including ripping out the bijuus from the guy directly. Something he's more than capable of, given the fact that Half dead Obito was able to do this to Juudara in order to revive Naruto, and prior to this, Juubito had even been defeated by Naruto and Sasuke doing this exact same thing together. Since Sasuke has also become a psuedo juubi host during the final fight with Naruto, and since soul stealing is one of the Rinnengan's core abilities, and since he's literally already done it before with Naruto, Sasuke should easily be able to replicate the same ability.


Fused said:


> They weren't supposed to threaten Sasuke's life, they were supposed to keep him busy.





Fused said:


> Bully Sasuke with 4 Limbo clones that he will never have the chance of affecting in any way?
> He doesn't need to "hope" for anything, Sasuke objectively and factually will not break through ever, and Limbo is one of his greatest assets, so ofc he'll use it in the fight
> 
> 
> It is you who still haven't explained how Sasuke defeats Madara, and No, a blatant misinterpretation of that panel is not an explanation at all.


Yeah, so "use Limbo and hope Sasuke doesn't break through" even though this version of Sasuke has Shadow Clone jutsu. Cool. Keep huffing that copium. Might make it hurt less when Sasuke goes in raw.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## TraderJoe (Jan 3, 2023)

Charisma said:


> What about when Madara perception-blitzes Naruto and Sasuke to the point Naruto thinks he might have dodged because they don't know what happened, and they don't realize where he is until panels later? I think that's pretty fast.


Seems like no one wants to respond to this...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Baroxio (Jan 3, 2023)

TraderJoe said:


> Seems like no one wants to respond to this...


How is that a perception blitz? They're literally reacting to it on panel. You can see Madara's movement lines, AND you can see their exclamation marks showing that they're reacting. They just aren't stopping what they're doing because sealing his Limbo clone is still a win, since it prevents Madara from stopping Sasuke from slicing his ass in two a few panels later. 

Madara without Limbo = fodder for Sasuke.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


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## TraderJoe (Jan 3, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> How is that a perception blitz? They're literally reacting to it on panel. You can see Madara's movement lines, AND you can see their exclamation marks showing that they're reacting. They just aren't stopping what they're doing because sealing his Limbo clone is still a win, since it prevents Madara from stopping Sasuke from slicing his ass in two a few panels later.
> 
> Madara without Limbo = fodder for Sasuke.


@Charisma articulated it pretty well. Naruto is unsure what even happened to the point he's surmising whether Madara dodged or not.


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## Charisma (Jan 3, 2023)

TraderJoe said:


> @Charisma articulated it pretty well. Naruto is unsure what even happened to the point he's surmising whether Madara dodged or not.


And their reaction starts at that panel. Madara is already off panel. If it wasn't clear enough, they don't react until he's already off-panel. Similar to Kaguya dodging Sasuke's Chidori.

You can't make up excuses for this but turn around and argue what Sasuke did was a blitz. Madara actually reacted and showed no surprise. Naruto and Sasuke here don't even know what happened.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Kage 2


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## Baroxio (Jan 3, 2023)

TraderJoe said:


> @Charisma articulated it pretty well. Naruto is unsure what even happened to the point he's surmising whether Madara dodged or not.


Naruto is unsure of what happened because he can't see the Limbo clones, but can still sense that they've caught it. And Naruto surmised correctly exactly what happened - Madara _*did*_ dodge it. Even if he had to sacrifice a Limbo clone in order to do it.

Again, it's not like they caught nothing. They still have to complete their sealing on the Limbo clone, even if it isn't Madara that they've caught. Chances are, Sasuke wouldn't be able to run up on him and slice him in half if he had a Limbo clone available. 

The only reason this battle is even a question is because Limbo can only be damaged by senjutsu. You could give pre-Adult Sasuke access to Jugo or the Curse Seal for natural energy amp and this would be a low diff murderstomp. But even without senjutsu, Sasuke can win on taijutsu alone, especially since this version of him has access to Shadow Clones, to even the score.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 3, 2023)

The way the Naruto fandom seems to operate revolves around choosing which statements they like (all of which are directly from the author) and then coping with it in their own ways

Adult Sasuke is ~ to Momoshiki, someone who should be ~ to Kaguya and she feared him and Kinshiki. This is directly stated by both the author, as well as the manga several times. No amount of crying can change this, and their still isn't a single debunk for any of this evidence

Furthermore, Kaguya is so much more powerful than Madara, that when he absorbed her power he actually underwent a sex change and got one shot. Kaguya then goes on to become even STRONGER than this when she stabilises - and even then still considers Momoshiki as a rival.

Sasuke simply outscales Madara in every physical stat there is, Madara has no counter to Ameno BFR, he gets his soul ripped out, bijuu ripped out of him. He simply doesn't have a win con.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Lewd 1


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## blk (Jan 3, 2023)

Adult Sasuke shits on Madara.

As we saw in the WA, literally every ability of Madara was easily countered by Sasuke INCLUDING Infinite Tsukuyomi.


Lasers / electricity Ninjutsu? Just dodge with Ameno, protect with Susanoo or absorb with Preta.

Limbo? Can easily see and simply avoid / ignore it.

CT? Irrelevant since Sasuke's Susanoo can fly.

Mokuton? Same as above.

Infinite Tsukuyomi? Already adressed.


On the other hand we don't know if Madara can use his PS as Juubi Jin or not, in the latter case he would be screwed.

Second, adult Sasuke can use coreless CT that generates the center of gravity directly at the target (see against Momo). There is really no feat from Madara that would indicate he could free himself from a coreless CT.

Third, ultimately there is always the BFR possibility for Sasuke, something Madara has truly no answer for.


Sasuke wins mid diff.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Optimistic 2


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## Baroxio (Jan 3, 2023)

Charisma said:


> And their reaction starts at that panel. Madara is already off panel. If it wasn't clear enough, they don't react until he's already off-panel. Similar to Kaguya dodging Sasuke's Chidori.
> 
> You can't make up excuses for this but turn around and argue what Sasuke did was a blitz. Madara actually reacted and showed no surprise. Naruto and Sasuke here don't even know what happened.


Actually, now that I'm looking more closely at the panel before Madara is split in half and the panel wherein he is split in half, it actually looks like Madara attempted to jump back in an attempt to get away from Sasuke.



You can see he's fully turned his body to where Sasuke was coming from, is up in the air when he wasn't before, and is also slightly further away from Kakashi then he was before. All signs point to him attempting to gain distance, but then failing to do so because Sasuke is too darn fast for him. 

And to top it off, he just went from 1 Rinnengan to 1 Rinnengan + 1 Magenkyou Sharingan, for all who think adding special eyes makes you faster.

Reactions: Like 2


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 3, 2023)

People make a ton of excuses for Madara too

None of his Rinnegan abilities have any conceivable scaling, so we dont even know if his ST, BT would even work and CT was negged with ease

He is mutiple times weaker than Kaguya - someone Sasuke believes he can take on alone. Sasuke is also good at measuring his own strength because he also admits he can't take on Isshiki, so this position is not one of bias

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## TraderJoe (Jan 3, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> Naruto is unsure of what happened because he can't see the Limbo clones, but can still sense that they've caught it. And Naruto surmised correctly exactly what happened - Madara _*did*_ dodge it. Even if he had to sacrifice a Limbo clone in order to do it.
> 
> Again, it's not like they caught nothing. They still have to complete their sealing on the Limbo clone, even if it isn't Madara that they've caught. Chances are, Sasuke wouldn't be able to run up on him and slice him in half if he had a Limbo clone available.
> 
> The only reason this battle is even a question is because Limbo can only be damaged by senjutsu. You could give pre-Adult Sasuke access to Jugo or the Curse Seal for natural energy amp and this would be a low diff murderstomp. But even without senjutsu, Sasuke can win on taijutsu alone, especially since this version of him has access to Shadow Clones, to even the score.





Charisma said:


> And their reaction starts at that panel. Madara is already off panel. If it wasn't clear enough, they don't react until he's already off-panel. Similar to Kaguya dodging Sasuke's Chidori.
> 
> You can't make up excuses for this but turn around and argue what Sasuke did was a blitz. Madara actually reacted and showed no surprise. Naruto and Sasuke here don't even know what happened.


See @Charisma they don't even react 'til off-panel.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Charisma (Jan 3, 2023)

TraderJoe said:


> See @Charisma they don't even react 'til off-panel.


I'm having trouble spotting the difference.



> How is that a perception blitz? They're literally reacting to it on panel. You can see Madara's movement lines, AND you can see their exclamation marks showing that they're reacting. They just aren't stopping what they're doing because sealing his Limbo clone is still a win, since it prevents Madara from stopping Sasuke from slicing his ass in two a few panels later.





> How is that a perception blitz? Madara's literally reacting to it on panel. You can see him making a complete statement while smiling at Sasuke and showing no surprise. He just isn't stopping what Sasuke's doing because using Kamui is still a win, since it allows Madara to gain his second eye, a power up, and fight Team 7 as a group with no difficultly a few panels later.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TraderJoe (Jan 3, 2023)

Charisma said:


> I'm having trouble spotting the difference.


It wasn't just Naruto who was perception blitzed because he "can only sense Limbo", Sasuke was as well. And Madara is long gone before they even realized what happened. Nice find.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 3, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> Oh, you want context? Here's the panel immediately before this:
> 
> It's Madara.
> Praising Sasuke's speed.
> ...


Incredibility Disingenuous and has nothing to Do with The topic which is Rinne-Sharingan Madara. 


Not only that Sasuke literally didn't accomplish anything slashing someone who a chapter ago stated was completely immortal.


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## TraderJoe (Jan 3, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> Incredibility Disingenuous and has nothing to Do with The topic which is Rinne-Sharingan Madara.
> 
> 
> Not only that Sasuke literally didn't accomplish anything slashing someone who a chapter ago stated was completely immortal.


Well, self-warping is canonically slower, and Madara correctly deduced he could create the needed time by allowing Sasuke to bisect him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 3, 2023)

TraderJoe said:


> Well, self-warping is canonically slower, and Madara correctly deduced he could create the needed time by allowing Sasuke to bisect him.



I just find it funny people debate that is 3eyed Madara Vs Adult Sasuke people quick to use  a panel of 1 Rinnegan JJ Madara actually reacting to Sasuke and not even shocked or surprised that he was able to do what he did to then use that to argue Against 3 eyed Madara. 

Good Find, when Madara was seriously trying to get his other eye he Blitz Naruto and Sasuke who couldn't determine if Madara dodged their attack or not. which is a perception blitz if they are still wondering what happen and didn't pick up on Madara until panels later when he was Far away from them. 

Their is nothing Adult Naruto has in his arsenal to stop this Madara who is Beyond Adult Sasuke in every way.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Baroxio (Jan 3, 2023)

Charisma said:


> I'm having trouble spotting the difference.


The difference is, in both cases, Naruto and Sasuke are winning, son. 

In the first case, they take no damage and end up sealing Madara's Limbo clone. NaruSasu - 1, Madara - 0

In the second case, they take no damage and Madara ends up sliced in half. NaruSasu - 2, Madara - 0

Getting sliced in half is not an accomplishment for Madara. It's a demerit. Madara then completes Kamui because Sasuke is unaware of the extent of his immortality, and thus doesn't have a followup attack prepared. 



MYGod000 said:


> Incredibility Disingenuous and has nothing to Do with The topic which is Rinne-Sharingan Madara.
> 
> 
> Not only that Sasuke literally didn't accomplish anything slashing someone who a chapter ago stated was completely immortal.


I'm the one posting manga panels and I'm the one being disingenuous?   I posted the whole page up above, btw. You asked for context and I gave it: Madara praises Sasuke's speed, makes an attempt to jump back, gets caught, gets sliced in half.

Madara is _*lucky*_ that slicing him in half is all Sasuke did. What if Sasuke went for the face and ended up inadvertedly destroying the Sharingan he worked so hard to obtain? Is there any proof that Madara could have blocked Sasuke when he literally seems unable to do so in this panel? You literally have to argue against the manga to suggest that he *could *have blocked but *chose not to* - something he's _literally _never done before, even when he's admittedly having fun like against Gated Gai and doesn't think that he can die. 

Speaking of which, unless you can prove that gaining the Rinne-Sharingan made Madara significantly faster (moreso than being a Juubi Jinchuriki and absorbing the Shinju tree), then this is all we have to go on when it comes to Sasuke vs Madara. Arguing against the manga like you're attempting to do is the REAL disingenuous move here.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 3, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> The difference is, in both cases, Naruto and Sasuke are winning, son.
> 
> In the first case, they take no damage and end up sealing Madara's Limbo clone. NaruSasu - 1, Madara - 0
> 
> ...


He also praised 8th gate Gai speed...that doesn't mean He was fodder to him like you're implying. 


Speed=/=Strength


It wouldn't have made any difference if Sasuke tried to be more as Madara would have Just regenerated back.  
Juubi Jin Obito had Half his body erased by TSO and you think Sasuke slicing immortal JJ Madara was actually going to any thing to him? 


You were also Shown a panel that Madara was actually faster than Sasuke and Naruto perception.


By the time they figured out where he was at He was long Gone. Madara prasing Sasuke speed means nothing only that he wasn't shocked or Surprise at Sasuke Speed which is why He said: "But Sasuke you're still fast"

He doesn't implie Sasuke is faster than himself which is prove in the previous Panel where Madara blitz Both Naruto and Sasuke.

Your  panel didn't serve any point in this thread Nor does it prove Adult Sasuke can beat Immortal Madara.  which is why most of you are fishing for BFR like you always do when you can't win a fight.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Charisma (Jan 3, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> The difference is, in both cases, Naruto and Sasuke are winning, son.
> 
> In the first case, they take no damage and end up sealing Madara's Limbo clone. NaruSasu - 1, Madara - 0
> 
> ...


Your bias is showing heavily.

First, to address the argument, your second point is wrong. Getting sliced in half may not be an accomplishment, but it's still no demerit. It literally has zero negative effect on Madara. The only real outcome of that event was Madara getting a power-up. The immortality argument makes zero sense. Sasuke, after stabbing Madara likely through the heart, outright states he knows that won't be enough to kill Madara. They don't ever even plan on killing him, but instead immediately go the route of restricting and sealing his movements, as per Hagoromo's instructions.

Second, this isn't about "who's winning." This is about feat validity. You've gotten so caught up that you lost the point of discussion. I don't care if Naruto and Sasuke collectively pressure and are winning against one-eyed Madara. That doesn't take away the fact you are denying an argument from the other side, but then using the exact same argument for your side. "In both cases, Naruto and Sasuke are winning, son," is not an argument for why Sasuke's feat is a blitz but Madara's isn't. Naruto and Sasuke forced Kaguya to fly upwards from getting sealed, too. I guess that means you think they're faster than her, right? That's what you're telling me. Because they're "winning, son."

Madara's lucky that all Sasuke did was slice him in half? Another argument this side can mirror. Naruto and Sasuke are lucky that all Madara did was fly away. By the time they reacted, and since, as you said, they were so caught up sealing Limbo, he could have bisected them instead. Instead of flying up, he flies diagonal and bisects Sasuke. And their bisection results in their death.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## ARGUS (Jan 4, 2023)

I would make the argument that even without Limbos, madara would mid diff adult sasuke. and its still not close

he is basically a far better version of sasuke 

 -- his PS >>> Sasukes. which is still adult sasukes full power by his own admission. as a PS fueled by juubi, SPSM, RG and Rikudo chakra is stronger than a PS just fueled by RG, and some leftover almost finished rikudo chakra 

 -- Juubidama still eradicates sasukes strongest defenses like nothing 

 -- BFR is still not cutting it, given that sasuke would neeed to completely blitz madara for that, and madara is at RSM narutos level as perr manga and DB. and sasuke is never blitzing naruto given there is actually evidence that naruto is faster than him. 

 -- Sasuke still has nothing to take down madara with. Ninjutsu just gets negged by preta, and taijutsu of his level is ineffective in putting madara down when he has TSB defenses and is immortal as well. Not to mention when the far superior 8G guys offense still wasnt enough against a madara that wasnt even immortal 

 -- madara has superior strength to sasuke, TSB defenses that would blow his head if he makes a single mistake, ST that consistently swat him aside, and mokuton clones that make it a gang bang. So CQC is one of the worst strategies for sasuke. Which is funny when his ninjutsu gets negged too. 

 -- fight ends with either juubidama turning sasuke to dust, PS overpowering sasukes own and then butchering him, mass CT squashing him like a bug once his PS is down, or CST turning him to paste once his PS is down. Madara has too many ways of taking him down

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Sasuke beats Juudara in every stat except maybe stamina.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Charisma (Jan 4, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> Actually, now that I'm looking more closely at the panel before Madara is split in half and the panel wherein he is split in half, it actually looks like Madara attempted to jump back in an attempt to get away from Sasuke.
> 
> You can see he's fully turned his body to where Sasuke was coming from, is up in the air when he wasn't before, and is also slightly further away from Kakashi then he was before. All signs point to him attempting to gain distance, but then failing to do so because Sasuke is too darn fast for him.


What a convenient interpretation you made up to fit your view. Madara was always in the air. There's zero sound effects denoting he jumped, and there's zero movement lines to denote him moving upwards from where he was.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 4, 2023)

Anywho, The people that are claiming Adult Sasuke is above Juubi Jin in every stats but only manage to equal nine-tails Jin with 16 years of time past are lying to themselves at this point.

Adult Naruto isn't above Juubi Jin...he isn't even above Juubi in Boruto which we still have no idea where it came from. 

Adult Sasuke has nothing over Rinne-Sharingan Madara.


His S/T Jutsu he can barely use while in combat takes most of his chakra to the point Two Kages can preform on his level after using the jutsu.

Kinshiki, Sasuke's biggest solo opponent in Boruto was Taken care of by Kages.

Madara would one shot Kinshiki with a Juubi Dama.


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## Baroxio (Jan 4, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> Anywho, The people that are claiming Adult Sasuke is above Juubi Jin in every stats but only manage to equal nine-tails Jin with 16 years of time past are lying to themselves at this point.
> 
> Adult Naruto isn't above Juubi Jin...he isn't even above Juubi in Boruto which we still have no idea where it came from.
> 
> ...


Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto was already above most Juubi Jin. 

He easily could have solo'd Madara given his feats vs Kaguya. 

For one, he straight up blitzes her and tears off her arm.

For two, he only needed about 4 clones to counter Madara's Limbo, and then pulled out a hundred clones vs Kaguya later. 

Seriously, Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto rapes any Juubi Jin, barring whatever nonsense happens in Boruto. 

Hurr Durr, immortality - Naruto already ripped out the Biju from one Juubi Jin, and that was before he gained Rikudo powers.

Sasuke gets props mostly for matching him, and for having access to a suite of OP Rinnengan abilities.


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## TheNirou (Jan 4, 2023)

Adult Sasuke gets stomped hard, it's debatable if he can beat RSM Madara, let alone Juubito.

3 eyed Madara is Sasuke with Juubi and shinju inside of him with six path senjutsu and an extra rinne sharingan...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 4, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto was already above most Juubi Jin.


where is your proof evidence of this when We have novels Talking about adult Naruto being Weaker then Juubi Jin?


Baroxio said:


> He easily could have solo'd Madara given his feats vs Kaguya.


 That just proved he could fight Kaguya doesn't prove he can solo him considering the Fact Madara is stated by the author to be the strongest Shinobi in the 4th War of all time. 


Baroxio said:


> For one, he straight up blitzes her and tears off her arm.



That was a Weakened Kaguya who Had spammed Ameno to shift Dimension which is stated to require enormous amounts of her chakra. 


Baroxio said:


> For two, he only needed about 4 clones to counter Madara's Limbo, and then pulled out a hundred clones vs Kaguya later.



Those Four Clones Naruto summoned couldn't Defeat the Limbo clones even while they were using Jutsu Against Limbo and Limbo was using purely Taijutsu. 

those Clones that Was Summoned against Kaguya are stated to be as Skilled as Rock Lee

Please continue to tell me I'm wrong And the Author is Telling you Those 1000s of Clones=Rock Lee in skill. 





Baroxio said:


> Seriously, Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto *rapes* any Juubi Jin, barring whatever nonsense happens in Boruto.


You shouldn't use such langues on here. No Naruto doesn't he is stated in boruto to be weaker than Juubi Jin. 


Baroxio said:


> Hurr Durr, immortality - Naruto already ripped out the Biju from one Juubi Jin, and that was before he gained Rikudo powers.


 With help from Thousands of Shinobi not by himself. 



What makes you Think Naruto can do that by himself? 


Against a Complete Ten tails...Hagoromo and Hamura was in a Desperate Struggle  with the Ten tails.  Even those That Ten tails Naruto face was missing only half of the 9 Tails Chakra what makes you think he being a Juubi Jin by himself even with Rikudo powers?  Naruto  main Prominent power is the 9 tails.   unless you think NAruto or  Sasuke individually are Above Pre-JJ Hagoromo and Hamura  who struggled with the Ten tails i see no reason to believe They are above Juubi Jin. 


Baroxio said:


> Sasuke gets props mostly for matching him, and for having access to a suite of OP Rinnengan abilities.


what OP Rinnegan abilities? he's only used Ameno which was what he was using Before against Juubi Jin and Kaguya.

His Space Time Portal weakens him so far to the point his feats can be matched by Two Kages. 

Naruto isn't close To Juubi Jin buddy.

Naruto has more chakra than Adult Sasuke.


Depending how much value you want to put in These Boruto cards it has Naruto above Sasuke in Chakra. 


The same Arguments you people make for why Kaguya is Stronger than Madara because she has more chakra. 

Madara has More chakra

Madara has leagues better fighting Experience since he lived for at least 80+ years 

Madara has More Hax with Limbo which creates another Version of Madara which Sasuke can't defeat since he doesn't have TSO to affect them or any jutsu to stop movements. 

Madara has Healing Factors something Adult Sasuke doesn't have

Madara has Regeneration something Adult Sasuke doesn't have

Madara has Immortality.

  Let also not forget Naruto Chakra was used to kill Momoshiki

like everyone is saying you're being bias here. You're Arguing Sasuke pre-Boruto Blitz Madara but you won't accept that a Serious JJ Madara blitz Naruto and Sasuke after he switched with His Limbo clone and moved many meters away Before Naruto and Sasuke picked up on his location. 


their are multiple Statements irrefutable Statements that JJ Madara is the strongest of all Ninja during the 4th War that is before and  after Naruto and sasuke had their Six path Power up. I ask you do you have even statements of 4th War Naruto and Sasuke that  contradict Madara statements of being The strongest shinobi in the 4th War?

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## Baroxio (Jan 4, 2023)

Did this dude just equate 100 Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto's clones *THAT WERE BOXING KAGUYA* to mother-freaking Rock Lee? 

Are you gonna turn around and tell me that Rock Lee can Box Kaguya? Because that's the only logical conclusion to that statement.

This just proves yet again that the manga is the number 1 source and the databook and all alternative sources can fucking suck it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Perfect Susano (Jan 4, 2023)

Naruto's clone army is only equal to Lee's barrage in Taijutsu power_(Discounting things like Steam Release and shunshin which aren't mentioned in the databook entry)_.

The only "evidence" otherwise is due to false equivalences and dishonesty. Like claiming that Base RSM Naruto "pushed" Madara in Taijutsu harder than 7th Gate Gai, ignoring the fact that Hirudora was erased by Truthseekers which Naruto is immune to.

6th Gate Lee would match RSM Naruto's clone army if the author were writing it, Hirudora would pop the entire clone army simultaneously and 8th Gate Gai would would kill all of the clones before they could even put up a fight.

There is no contradiction between the author's statement_(databook)_ and the manga. The author's word_(databook)_ gives context to his work_(manga)_. God tier stat scaling is nonsense and always has been. Naruto can't blitz anyone Kage level and up without shunshin & Sasuke can't blitz and one shot anyone on the Kage level at all without Amenotejikara.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

Madara.

Adult Sasuke being as strong or stronger than Rinne Sharingan Juudara is a pipe dream.

A dream based on fan wanking and bad scaling. In canon Adult Sasuke will lose to Juudara every time.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Sasuke.
> 
> Adult Sasuke being as weak or weaker than Rinne Sharingan Juudara is a pipe dream.
> 
> A dream based on fan wanking and bad scaling. In canon Adult Sasuke will defeat Juudara every time.



Agreed

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Agreed


Even some of the more Borutowankish don't think Adult Sasuke can 1v1 Prime Juudara.

It's an absurd belief that's based on severe Juudara downplay or bloated Adult Fate-Bro Wank.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Even some Boruto fans don't think Adult Sasuke can 1v1 Prime Juudara.
> 
> It's an absurd belief that's based on severe Juudara overhype or criminal Adult Fate-Bro downplay.



Gotta agree.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Gotta agree.


Guess meming Is all you can do.  

Concession accepted.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Guess meming Is all I can do.
> 
> Accept my concession



With pleasure

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

@Aegon Targaryen

Teen Rikudo Naruto & Sasuke didn't have a hope of being able to 1 v 1 Prime Juudara.

So even if you think they didn't get weaker...
They would have to become much stronger to be able to win a 1 v 1 with Prime Juudara. And there is absolutely no evidence for that. Nothing supports then becoming much stronger than before.

And that's not even getting into all the stuff that strongly suggests they are weaker.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Raiken said:


> @Aegon Targaryen
> 
> Teen Rikudo Naruto & Sasuke had hopes of being able to 1 v 1 Prime Juudara.
> 
> ...



Agreed, Maru 

Sasuke learning to make portals and access Kaguya's space-time with the Rinnegan, something he literally couldn't do when younger (and something that taxes Kaguya's reserves too), definitely implies he became much stronger. Ditto for Naruto who now has the other half of Kurama.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Agreed, Maru
> 
> Sasuke learning to make portals and access Kaguya's space-time with the Rinnegan, something he literally couldn't do when younger (and something that taxes Kaguya's reserves too), definitely implies he became much stronger. Ditto for Naruto who now has the other half of Kurama.


That doesn't warrant Prime Juudara soling portrayal at all. Even with your obvious blatant bias.

There's no way those two factors make them stronger enough them to 1 v 1 Prime Juudara.

I feel like deep down even you don't buy it... it's rediculous high balling.

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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

*see's voting poll* @t0xeus i didnt know you could have opinions this lewd maru...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Raiken said:


> That doesn't warrant Prime Juudara soling portrayal at all. Even with your obvious blatant bias.
> 
> There's no way those two factors make them stronger enough them to 1 v 1 Prime Juudara.
> 
> I feel like deep down even you don't buy it... it's rediculous high balling.



It does.  

Rinnegan Sasuke was able to hold his ground against Kaguya who vastly outstats Juudara and that was before he got used to his Rinnegan, so...yes way, they would.

Find a better argument. Argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy, and logical fallacies won't save you from constantly losing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It does.
> 
> Rinnegan Sasuke was able to hold his ground against Kaguya who vastly outstats Juudara and that was before he got used to his Rinnegan, so...yes way, they would.


1. Him getting used to his Rinnegan only meant unlocking Chibaku Tensei, nothing more at that moment.

2. Kaguya is a decent amount stronger than Prime Juudara physically. But nothing suggests its a VAST gap. Could easily be as low as 2x or less even.

3. Sasuke performed terribly against Kaguya, what are you smoking? Give me a drag. Kaguya no diffed PS twice. BFR'd him once & laughed off pretty much everything else.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Find a better argument. Argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy, and logical fallacies won't save you from constantly losing.


Didnt realise WinNo1929 was your dupe. And that was only a small point of my point. The above points are facts.

Reactions: Lewd 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Raiken said:


> 1. Him getting used to his Rinnegan only meant unlocking Chibaku Tensei



Baseless. Sasuke is able to tag Naruto with incredible ease using Ameno early in the fight, when he actually did worse against Kaguya than Naruto did even with Ameno.



Raiken said:


> 2. Kaguya is a decent amount stronger than Prime Juudara physically. But nothing suggests its a VAST gap



Everything does. Kaguya has so much chakra everyone says she has FAR more chakra, to the point they're surprised such a person could even exist.



Raiken said:


> Could easily be as low as 2x



Not easily. It's much more than 2x, given that Madara straight up got overwhelmed by the chakra as opposed to being amped or something (Kakashi getting a x3 amp or even bigger, in contrast, had no effect).



Raiken said:


> 3. Sasuke performed terribly against Kaguya



True, good thing he's fighting Kaguya's lightweight here and we're discussing a vastly stronger Sasuke at that 

Also, his PS sliced her arm off even mid-Vacuum Fists, drawing blood.



*Edit*: I was wrong about the arm cutting part, but she got cut here again either way.

And before that, knocked her away.



Madara would fare far worse than Kaguya did 



Raiken said:


> what are you smoking? Give me a drag



Nothing. Maybe you should let go of the bong when you're about to debate.



Raiken said:


> Kaguya no diffed PS twice



Bullshit. Sasuke not only knocked Kaguya away once but also cut her arm off the second time even as he took damage, making it FAR higher than a "no diff".



Raiken said:


> BFR'd him once & laughed off pretty much everything else



Yeah, too bad Madara has none of those powers 

Sasuke can now do to Madara what Kaguya did to him, by the way: BFR.



Raiken said:


> Didnt realise WinNo1929 was your dupe. And that was only a small point of my point.



He's not. But if you want to debate him instead...

@WinNo1929



Raiken said:


> The above points are fiction



Fixed

Reactions: Winner 3


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## MYGod000 (Jan 4, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> Did this dude just equate 100 Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto's clones *THAT WERE BOXING KAGUYA* to mother-freaking Rock Lee?
> 
> Are you gonna turn around and tell me that Rock Lee can Box Kaguya? Because that's the only logical conclusion to that statement.
> 
> This just proves yet again that the manga is the number 1 source and the databook and all alternative sources can fucking suck it.


You clearly are bias.


The Author Said Naruto's 1000 Clones are Equal to Rock Lee in Skill...How am I wrong for showing Evidence from the Author that he wrote in his on Guidebooks about Naruto's 1000s of clones?  do you understand how clones work in Naruto Naruto has to split his chakra in half among the clones.

Are you going to Tell me JJ Madara is 1/1000th of SPSM Naruto in the war?  you're Delusional if you think when we saw Madara blitz Naruto and Sasuke and it took both of them together just to compete with him.

Buddy The Databook Agrees with the Manga on this The manga literally states Naruto has to split his chakra between clones


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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> True, good thing he's fighting Kaguya's lightweight here and we're discussing a vastly stronger Sasuke at that
> 
> Also, his PS sliced her arm off even mid-Vacuum Fists, drawing blood.
> 
> ...


Naruto sliced Kaguyas arm off there, not Sasuke. AND, Sasuke attacked straight after but still couldn't do jack shit lol.

Put down the blunt dude.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Naruto sliced Kaguyas arm there. And Sasuke attacked straight after but still couldn't do jack shit lol. Put down the blunt dude.





Take your own advice, dude 

Look at the panel on the center-left. Sasuke's PS VERY clearly slices Kaguya, drawing blood (with a THK sound).

We even see another panel underneath (lower-middle) where Kaguya's arm area is gushing blood and the lady herself has an "!" above her head.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 4, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Naruto sliced Kaguyas arm off there, not Sasuke. AND, Sasuke attacked straight after but still couldn't do jack shit lol.
> 
> Put down the blunt dude.


That was a Weakened Kaguya at that point Kaguya is weaker than Initial Kaguya.


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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Take your own advice, dude
> 
> Look at the panel on the center-left. Sasuke's PS VERY clearly slices Kaguya, drawing blood (with a THK sound).
> 
> We even see another panel underneath (lower-middle) where Kaguya's arm area is gushing blood and the lady herself has an "!" above her head.


What are you talking about... Kaguya's arm is off for the whole exchange. Thanks to this.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Raiken (Jan 4, 2023)

Raiken said:


> What are you talking about... Kaguya's arm is off for the whole exchange. Thanks to this.


@Aegon Targaryen

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Raiken said:


> What are you talking about... Kaguya's arm is off for the whole exchange. Thanks to this.



Okay, you were right about the arm part. My bad.

Still need to concede Sasuke injured and drew blood from her though


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## Goku (Jan 4, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Okay, you were right about the arm part. My bad.
> 
> Still need to concede Sasuke injured and drew blood from her though


Sasuke was also the reason why Kaguya teleported everyone out of the gravity dimension.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## BLueSky (Jan 4, 2023)

Sasuke Mid to High Diffs at worst.

Naruto shadow clones can fight Limbo on equal grounds so I believe Sasuke should be capable aswell, and I guess he have the AP when adult/new era ? Sasuke in the war already had the answer to Madara powers. Now a more experienced Sasuke with way more jutsu and higher AP is going up against Madara??? Fused Momo is a greater threat than Kaguya, and look how they handled him. And Kaguya was greater than Peak Madara. Madara literally exploded with Kaguya's chakra. Limbo? Regen?? Sasuke literally handles that with ease. He can literally BFR Madara or absorb his chakra or even seal him. So Madara absorbs chakra guess who absorbs chakra better and on the level of Hag? Sasuke, as teen absorbed 9 bijuu chakra fastly. Adult Sasuke is more calm and more skillful. Sasuke takes this. Also he was confident on taking threat that greater than Kaguya.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## AfroUchiha (Jan 4, 2023)

Only in Narutoforums will people try to convince you that a 0.5>1.

Madara has Six Paths Senjutsu, A crap ton more Chakra, Regeneration and a Rinne-Sharingan over Sasuke.

Portrayal wise and logic wise, Sasuke stands loses.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 3 | Disagree 1


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## BLueSky (Jan 4, 2023)

AfroUchiha said:


> Only in Narutoforums will people try to convince you that a 0.5>1.
> 
> Madara has Six Paths Senjutsu, A crap ton more Chakra and a Rinne-Sharingan over Sasuke.
> 
> Portrayal wise and logic wise, Sasuke stands loses.


As teen, post Kaguya fight, he grown. His chakra controll was compared to Hag. Chakra controll is a thing in AP.  As adult he kept up with Fused Momoshiki that greater threat than Kaguya. Kaguya >> peak Madara. Naruto isn't DB.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

AfroUchiha said:


> Only in Narutoforums will people try to convince you that a 0.5>1



And only on Narutoforums will people try to convince you that Juudara is actually close to Kaguya in power when her chakra straight up overloaded him  



AfroUchiha said:


> Madara has Six Paths Senjutsu



Yet his Limbo clones were stalemated for a while by Naruto's Shadow Clones  



AfroUchiha said:


> A crap ton more Chakra



Proof?



AfroUchiha said:


> Regeneration



True. 



AfroUchiha said:


> and a Rinne-Sharingan over Sasuke



The only jutsu we saw it cast was Mugen Tsukuyomi, which Sasuke's PS completely no-sold and protected others from. 

On top of that, Sasuke has a hax space-time Ninjutsu Madara doesn't (Amenotejikara), a PS that was able to injure a weakened Kaguya, and far better feats in general in terms of speed, Rinnegan skill, and overall combat ability. 

Also, that's just Young Sasuke I'm talking about. Adult Sasuke is a different story - he is STILL equal to Adult Naruto even after the latter gained another half of Kurama, is even more used to his Rinnegan than his VoTE2 counterpart...and can create portals that take him to Kaguya's dimensions and back. It's a feat even DMS Obito with Sakura amping him struggled to perform.



AfroUchiha said:


> Portrayal wise and logic wise, Sasuke stands wins.



Fixed.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 4, 2023)

AfroUchiha said:


> Only in Narutoforums will people try to convince you that a 0.5>1.
> 
> Madara has Six Paths Senjutsu, A crap ton more Chakra, Regeneration and a Rinne-Sharingan over Sasuke.


Sasuke already countered everything Rinne-Sharingan granted Madara on panel so.

And nothing else you mentioned prior applies because Madara and Sasuke, even possessing similar power ups, don't possess identical move sets.


AfroUchiha said:


> Portrayal wise and logic wise, Sasuke stands loses.


Portrayal wise he says, you do know that 3 eyed Madara and Adult Sasuke don't exist in the same manga apart from a brief cameo at the end of chapter 700, right? This is cap.

Portray wise he says, but last I checked this very Madara was taken out by Black Zetsu....Seriously, battle wise, what did this very Madara accomplish? He was utilized to hype Guy, Naruto, and Sasuke.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 5, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> He's not. But if you want to debate him instead...


You think @Raiken will even try to debate anyone?

Nah, he will get bodied, commit fallacy after fallacy and then run away

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2 | Disagree 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 5, 2023)

AfroUchiha said:


> Only in Narutoforums will people try to convince you that a 0.5>1.
> 
> Madara has Six Paths Senjutsu, A crap ton more Chakra, Regeneration and a Rinne-Sharingan over Sasuke.
> 
> Portrayal wise and logic wise, Sasuke stands loses.


Killer Bee has 8 tails, Hashirama has zero

Therefore Killer Bee beats Hashirama because 8 > 0

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Black zetsu (Jan 5, 2023)

Random Dino level vs +10 tails level

Reactions: Kage 1 | Disagree 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 5, 2023)

BLueSky said:


> As teen, post Kaguya fight, he grown. His chakra controll was compared to Hag. Chakra controll is a thing in AP.  As adult he kept up with Fused Momoshiki that greater threat than Kaguya. Kaguya >> peak Madara. Naruto isn't DB.



What does his chakra control have to do with his chakra level?


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## t0xeus (Jan 5, 2023)

Raiken said:


> *see's voting poll* @t0xeus i didnt know you could have opinions this lewd maru...


nothing lewd about it, I’ve had Adult Sasuke beating Madara for a long time. 

Though I do think his Teen self loses..

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Lewd 1


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## Raiken (Jan 5, 2023)

t0xeus said:


> nothing lewd about it, I’ve had Adult Sasuke beating Madara for a long time.
> 
> Though I do think his Teen self loses..


This was in fact, very lewd, lewdman.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 5, 2023)

If Madara's Limbo feint somehow proves that Madara is faster than Naruto/Sasuke, then Itachi should be faster than DSM Kabuto correct?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 5, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> You think @Raiken will even try to debate anyone?
> 
> Nah, he will get bodied, commit fallacy after fallacy and then run away



Frankly, no.

Agreed.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Raiken (Jan 5, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> You think @Raiken will even try to debate anyone?
> 
> Nah, he will get bodied, commit fallacy after fallacy and then run away


Trash BS. Most of your arguments make zero sense and you just troll 90% of the time. I'm also still somewhat convinced you're someone's dupe, I'm just not positive who yet. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Frankly, no.
> 
> Agreed.


Says the person who was caught using made up points from the Manga. Or your memory is so bad it cannot be trusted. 

You have obvious bias and set viewpoints, alongside a complete refusal to see counter points if it goes against your pre-conceived scaling.

Adult Sasuke got punked by Shin Uchiha, a random Dino Summoning and was shown to be comparable to a Kage Tiers physically. Juudara dunks on this lad so hard it's not even funny.

Like 75% of usable evidence within the content of Naruto & Boruto strongly suggests Fate-Bros got weaker, yet you keep making-up nonsense *based on absolutely nothing *that - Adult Sasuke is somehow dramatically stronger than his Teen self, and a decent chunk stronger than Prime Juudara. *Which is a take that has 0 credibility.*

Other than a single new Rinnegan Jutsu, nothing indicates he became stronger at all. Yet there is SO MUCH that suggest he's weaker than before. Instances that are always ignored by you guys or bullshit explained away with the power of utter copium.

Prime Juudara >>> Teen Rikudou Sasuke >> Adult Sasuke - *Deal with it.*

Imagine believing a 1 EMS & 1 Tomoe-Rinnegan is equal to Dual Rinnegan w/ Shinju Amped near-full power Juubi Six Paths Senjutsu & the Rinne Sharingan.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 5, 2023)

Raiken said:


> *see's voting poll* @t0xeus i didnt know you could have opinions this lewd maru...



I miss the times when @t0xeus had the Fate Bros in the same tier as Living SM Madara, now he rates them way too high.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 2


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## Raiken (Jan 5, 2023)

Soldierofficial said:


> I miss the times when @t0xeus had the Fate Bros in the same tier as Living SM Madara, now he rates them way too high.


To be fair I thought you yourself used to rate Fate Bros higher.


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## MYGod000 (Jan 5, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Trash BS. Most of your arguments make zero sense and you just troll 90% of the time. I'm also still somewhat convinced you're someone's dupe, I'm just not positive who yet.
> 
> Says the person who was caught using fake points from the Manga that you made up. Or your memory is so bad it cannot be trusted.
> 
> ...




Shin Uchiha said They were weak because they never evolved during peace time in the manga when Kishimoto was still somewhat active in his work. 

The bias in people are so strong they will use Narrator from the novel to upscale Base Momoshiki....but then ignore the Narration that verbatim Stated Momoshiki one shotting 8th Tails up close is a power that none of the Boruto Gokages possess.

Are they going to accept certain things but dismiss other things?  if you going to accept one thing from the novel and act as if it the word of God then you have to accept the other things in the novel that comes with it.


At no point is it ever implied Adult Naruto and Sasuke Surpassed JJ Madara or Juubi Jin and could defeat them individually in manga chapter 700.   people are just butthurt by the logic because it hurts their scaling and you know they have to find someway to keep Naruto close to the top in HST.  Even if it means being down right dishonest. I'm going to be honest with you i don't Trust Aegon memory at all i've seen him say I don't Remember this happening wayyy to many times in debates  or just down right being dishonest.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 5, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Says the person who was caught using made up points from the Manga



Not a made up point, I genuinely forgot  



Raiken said:


> Or your memory is so bad it cannot be trusted.



Or...I can make mistakes, and_ still_ obliterate you in any debate (not that it's much of a feat)  



Raiken said:


> You have obvious bias and set viewpoints, alongside a complete refusal to see counter points if it goes against your pre-conceived scaling



The irony  



Raiken said:


> Adult Sasuke got punked by Shin Uchiha


And Juudara got chased back by 7G Guy while the exponentially stronger Kaguya got bent by Base Sakura  



Raiken said:


> a random Dino Summoning



A feat for the Dino  

Provide anti-feats for him or you lose...again.



Raiken said:


> and was shown to be comparable to a Kage Tiers physically



So was Juudara 

SM Minato and Sandless Gaara neg diffed his kick.



Raiken said:


> Juudara gets dunked so hard it's not even funny



True  



Raiken said:


> Like 75% of usable evidence within the content of Naruto & Boruto strongly suggests Fate-Bros got weaker



More like...0%.

The most evidence you have is that Naruto and Sasuke got rusty in GAIDEN (not even Boruto proper, where this is never stated to be an issue again). In contrast, Naruto now has 100% Kurama _and _mastered SM to a greater degree than in youth, and Sasuke not only can replicate KKGs more or less - see Retsuden - but also can make space-time portals connecting multiple worlds, a feat he explicitly did not have in the OG Naruto and one even a Sakura-amped DMS Obito, a man that literally was a JJ AND fought a stronger JJ, found* insane*.

On top of that, Sasuke believes he and Naruto can take on a Kaguya-level+ threat, and IIRC, never doubts it or casts doubt on the Otsutsukis being that strong* ever*. Sasuke is a lot of things, but delusional isn't one of them...at least not if we aren't talking about Itachi. 



Raiken said:


> yet you clowns



Calm down.



Raiken said:


> keep making-up nonsense *based on absolutely nothing *



Wait, I *MADE UP* Sasuke creating space-time portals and psuedo-KKGs and Naruto having 100% Kurama and longer SM?! 

Am I Kishimoto to you?  



Raiken said:


> Adult Sasuke is somehow dramatically stronger than his Teen self, and a decent chunk stronger than Prime Juudara. *Which is a take that has a lot of credibility*



Fixed again.



Raiken said:


> Other than a single new Rinnegan Jutsu



Not just a single new Rinnegan jutsu, one that only* KAGUYA *could perform in the original manga.



Raiken said:


> nothing indicates he became stronger at all



You missed the psuedo-KKGs and confidence in beating the Kaguya-tier+ threats.



Raiken said:


> Yet there is SO MUCH that suggest he's weaker than before. Instances that are always ignored by you guys or bullshit explained away with the power of utter copium



Nothing, actually. At least not in Boruto, not before losing Rinnegan and Kurama at least.



Raiken said:


> Prime Juudara <=> Teen Rikudou Sasuke <<< Adult Sasuke - *Deal with it.*



True  



Raiken said:


> Imagine believing a 1 EMS & 1 Tomoe-Rinnegan is equal to Dual Rinnegan w/ Shinju Amped near-full power Juubi Six Paths Senjutsu & the Rinne Sharingan.



That's like arguing P1 Sasuke > WA Base Guy because CS2 + 3T > just Taijutsu

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Goku (Jan 5, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> So was Juudara
> 
> SM Minato and Sandless Gaara neg diffed his kick.


Base Sakura would be physically comparable to RSM Naruto using his logic. 

Those Kages are not even comparable to a mere Base Naruto. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> The most evidence you have is that Naruto and Sasuke got rusty in GAIDEN (not even Boruto proper, where this is never stated to be an issue again). In contrast, Naruto now has 100% Kurama _and _mastered SM to a greater degree than in youth, and Sasuke not only can replicate KKGs more or less - see Retsuden - but also can make space-time portals connecting multiple worlds, a feat he explicitly did not have in the OG Naruto and one even a Sakura-amped DMS Obito, a man that literally was a JJ AND fought a stronger JJ, found* insane*.


Sasuke had also spent lots of chakra searching for and entering Kaguya's dimension. He was so chakra-drained that his Rinnegan was depowered and he was unable to use his Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan. This never occurred when he was fighting Momoshiki, Jigen and Isshiki.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 5, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Trash BS. Most of your arguments make zero sense and you just troll 90% of the time. I'm also still somewhat convinced you're someone's dupe, I'm just not positive who yet.


This is a strawman

Yet another fallacious argument from you.

You don't make arguments - its either "deal with it" "no WAY Meno is that strong" "BS"

Reactions: Winner 2 | Dislike 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 5, 2023)

Goku said:


> Base Sakura would be physically comparable to RSM Naruto using his logic.
> 
> Those Kages are not even comparable to a mere Base Naruto.
> 
> Sasuke had also spent lots of chakra searching for and entering Kaguya's dimension. He was so chakra-drained that his Rinnegan was depowered and he was unable to use his Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan. This never occurred when he was fighting Momoshiki, Jigen and Isshiki.



If anything she wouldn't. it just means God tiers don't have God level Durability. 


Kaguya Damaged by sakura punch who wasn't God tier

Kinshiki Damaged by multiple Kages who are not God tier and most here agree Kinshiki isn't God tier as well.

Momoshiki Damaged by Boruto's Jutsu. 

all points to the Just because you're god tier doesn't mean you're Durability is God tier level.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 5, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> If anything she wouldn't. it just means God tiers don't have God level Durability.


Don't jerk of Madara then who you think doesn't get damaged by Isshiki

Seriously what a statement LMFAO.

Mygods hidden technique: Flip flop on your arguments in order to never concede and continue to stonewall

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 5, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Prime Juudara >>> Teen Rikudou Sasuke >> Adult Sasuke - *Deal with it.*


Thats super odd that you say this because before I got banned I got multiple concessions out of you that would force you to rework your entire God tier scale to put Adult Sasuke at least > Teen Rikudo if you were even remotely reasonable about scaling  

Considering you told me to my face multiple times that you have Jigen as at worst = Juudara


Raiken said:


> Yep, that works. He's got the power of Isshiki. And Isshiki is relative to Juudara imo.





Raiken said:


> yeah, V2 Jigen >>> Juubito.





Raiken said:


> V2 Jigen, who imo is relative to Juudara




And you admitted that the Adults, in your own opinion, could have beaten Jigen  



Raiken said:


> Jigen was a glass canon, if the fight had gone on much longer, Bros could have won.



And thats without the OHKO wincon of RCT that you INSIST is NEEDED for the Teens to even CONTEST Juudara  As shown here...


Raiken said:


> Imagine Hagaromo believing they need not only EACH OTHER but also THE SEALS to defeat Madara.
> 
> Fate Bro Stans here: "Naruto solo's"
> 
> The cope is real. Delusional as usual.


And again shown here...


Raiken said:


> I just don't understand how y'all can know all this...
> 
> 1. This Madara can hold his own with SP Naruto & Sasuke in a 2 v 1 and is not defeated.
> 2. Madara has the portrayal of getting close to Hagaromo and going towards Kaguya's realm.
> ...


You are VERY adamant on your stance that the Teens are only remotely capable of even contesting Juudara thanks entirely to RCT as a Duo...You know this and EVERYONE who has ever seen you post knows this.

Which would mean the Adults were fighting at a level that their Teen selves need the RCT seals to touch, and can even defeat a dude that their teen selves need the RCT seals to beat even without said seals  

Meaning, per your own logic here...The Adults need to outscale the Teens  

And you have even the weaker individual Teen outscaling forms of Juudara in your own words


Raiken said:


> With the Yin Seal / Hagaromo's Chakra, he could probably take on Initial Juudara on his own and possibly come out on-top


But it seems since Ive been banned, you seemed to have conveniently forgotten about this ass reaming and such concessions  

What happened here @Raiken ?

Youve got a lot to reconcile here bud

Reactions: Winner 5


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 5, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Teen Rikudo Naruto & Sasuke didn't have a hope of being able to 1 v 1 Prime Juudara.


"Didn't have a hope" as Naruto is literal equal to Juudara in physicals and then goes on to briefly stalemate his superior whilst getting more powerful and using more abilities

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Germa 66 (Jan 5, 2023)

Cry and deny all you want but Sasuke in Boruto is weaker than the War Arc Sasuke

Reactions: Winner 2 | Informative 1 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 5, 2023)

Germa 66 said:


> Cry and deny all you want but Sasuke in Boruto is weaker than the War Arc Sasuke


Just out of curiosity to see if youre the same as all the other parrots around here, whats your reasoning for this statement exactly


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## Germa 66 (Jan 5, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Just out of curiosity to see if youre the same as all the other parrots around here, whats your reasoning for this statement exactly


I won’t explain myself to the likes of you

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Lewd 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 5, 2023)

Germa 66 said:


> I won’t explain myself to the likes of you


So no argument then

Thats cool

Kids just spouting shit like a child and screaming "BELIEVE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Then when you ask him to elaborate he hisses at you like a feral cat

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Germa 66 (Jan 5, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> So no argument then
> 
> Thats cool
> 
> ...


Stay mad.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 5, 2023)

Germa 66 said:


> Stay mad.


Do I get an argument from you like I asked for?

Or are you gonna keep hissing?

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Germa 66 (Jan 5, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Do I get an argument from you like I asked for?
> 
> Or are you gonna keep hissing?


You can get this instead


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 5, 2023)

Germa 66 said:


> You can get this instead

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 5, 2023)

Everyday I debate about naruto, I start to realize people will say takes because it can help them push an agenda. Adult sasuke is clearly superior to teen sasuke in every way possible but people would deny it so they can either wank jubidara or downplay the boruto villains.

Somehow naruto got stronger than his teen self but...sasuke somehow got weakerThe things people will say to accomplish an agenda

Reactions: Winner 7 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 5, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats super odd that you say this because before I got banned I got multiple concessions out of you that would force you to rework your entire God tier scale to put Adult Sasuke at least > Teen Rikudo if you were even remotely reasonable about scaling
> 
> Considering you told me to my face multiple times that you have Jigen as at worst = Juudara
> 
> ...


Doesnt look like Im getting an answer to any of my questions here since the perpetrator in question has been viewing this thread for the last like 3 hours and hasnt got around to it yet

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 2


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## t0xeus (Jan 6, 2023)

Soldierofficial said:


> I miss the times when @t0xeus had the Fate Bros in the same tier as Living SM Madara, now he rates them way too high.


So you miss when I was trolling?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 6, 2023)

t0xeus said:


> So you miss when I was trolling?


And I miss when SO wasnt

Reactions: Agree 1


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## t0xeus (Jan 6, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And I miss when SO wasnt


To be honest I think he’s on a mission

Kinda like how he infiltrated Sannin Band only to betray  

I won’t give away too much intel so it doesn’t leak, but @Raiken better watch his back

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Raiken (Jan 6, 2023)

t0xeus said:


> To be honest I think he’s on a mission
> 
> Kinda like how he infiltrated Sannin Band only to betray
> 
> I won’t give away too much intel so it doesn’t leak, but @Raiken better watch his back


Knew it from the start.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Doesnt look like Im getting an answer to any of my questions here since the perpetrator in question has been viewing this thread for the last like 3 hours and hasnt got around to it yet


Called sleeping. Still am for the next few hours.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 6, 2023)

t0xeus said:


> To be honest I think he’s on a mission
> 
> Kinda like how he infiltrated Sannin Band only to betray
> 
> I won’t give away too much intel so it doesn’t leak, but @Raiken better watch his back



Nah. I think SO just does whatever he wants

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Jan 6, 2023)

Raiken said:


> Knew it from the start.


Well I was mostly memeing, SoldierOfficial is the last person for who I can tell what’s going through their mind

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 6, 2023)

Raiken said:


> To be fair I thought you yourself used to rate Fate Bros higher.



I think my scaling hasn't changed that much in these years, I always had RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke in the lowest part of my god tier around JJ Obito at best.

My tier list according to feats and portrayal looks something like this:

Kaguya

JJ Hagoromo
3-eyed JJ Madara

BPS Sasuke
AA Naruto
1-eyed JJ Madara

RSM Naruto
Rinnegan Sasuke
DMS Kakashi
1-eyed SM Madara
JJ Obito
8G Gai

And I don't understand why you disliked my comment, I didn't say anything to offend you, but lately I'm only getting negative ratings even though I always try to be friendly, I think It's time to request a permaban in this section, I've already lost interest in debating and I don't get along with anyone here so this is the end of my NBD career.

Reactions: Friendly 7


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## t0xeus (Jan 6, 2023)

Soldierofficial said:


> lately I'm only getting negative ratings even though I always try to be friendly, I think It's time to request a permaban in this section, I've already lost interest in debating and I don't get along with anyone here so this is the end of my NBD career.


That’s not true, you’re appreciated by many of us  

Lewd rates are only out of fun, they’re not meant to be interpreted as negative rating (at least imo)

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Sparks (Jan 6, 2023)

t0xeus said:


> That’s not true, you’re appreciated by many of us
> 
> Lewd rates are only out of fun, they’re not meant to be interpreted as negative rating (at least imo)


Lewd. Life. Love.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 6, 2023)

Adult Sasuke got worse at his Rinnegan, despite using more abilities in the Momo fight alone, back to back to back without ANY cooldown which completely eclipses his teenage performance who needed Obito to teleport him and had to wait between usage of his Rinnegan

Adult Sasuke losing an arm made him weaker - this is said... When is it said? "Human logic" yet Ay could fight perfectly fine with one arm as well

TL Naruto who is stated to continue reaching new heights is weaker than TL Sasuke - the same Naruto one beat Toneri, whos BASE FORM is compared to the strongest JJ we have ever seen, and has feats across the film of JD level blasts, slicing the moon in half with 1 attack and then *attempting to throw the moon at the earth and destroy it. Adult Sasuke is stronger than that Naruto
*

TL Sasuke believes he can fight Kaguya level threats alone."He doesn't know what hes talking about, its just resolve" No its not because as an older, wiser man he knew his limits against Isshiki and said he doesn't have a hope of winning

This means Sasuke understands the limits of his strength, and even though he believes he can take on Kaguya level threats he knows he can't defeat Isshiki. Fucking lol



Heres the same Sasuke saying he can single handedly take down Momoshiki - the same person Kaguya was terrified of


But even if you just say that Adult Sasuke is Kaguya level - this still puts him *several tiers over Madara*

No matter the cope, Sasuke scales to Kaguya who scales > Madara. Therefore he is better in speed, and the proof would lie on the Madara camp to show how the fuck he reacts to Sasuke.

Ameno to BFR one shots
Ameno to soul rip one shots
Ameno to chidori one shots
Ameno to ripping out the bijuu one shots
IT gets negged by Rinnegan
Sasuke has better genjutsu than Madara does per statements as well, so how does Madara deal with that?

He can damage Kaguya who massively outscales Madara

Madara was stalemating teen SPSM Naruto. As in, his physicals are at that level. That same Naruto who is weaker than Kaguya, who then becomes stronger and fights a Kaguya level opponent, wins, and is still weaker than TL Sasuke - who believes he can take on Kaguya level opponents (who btw Madara is not considered in the same tier as she is) and has proven to accurately gauge his own strength

Sasuke blitzes and cuts this fodder in half just like his weaker teen self did, or he genjutsu one shots him and rips out his soul effortlessly

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 3


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## Raiken (Jan 6, 2023)

Soldierofficial said:


> And I don't understand why you disliked my comment, I didn't say anything to offend you, but lately I'm only getting negative ratings even though I always try to be friendly, I think It's time to request a permaban in this section, I've already lost interest in debating and I don't get along with anyone here so this is the end of my NBD career.


I apologise and have have removed the negative react. I was half asleep and believed t0x when he was joking around. Aha

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Goku (Jan 6, 2023)

Soldierofficial said:


> I think my scaling hasn't changed that much in these years, *I always had RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke in the lowest part of my god tier around JJ Obito at best.*





Soldierofficial said:


> Isshiki
> Baryon Naruto
> 
> V2 Jigen
> ...

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Raiken (Jan 6, 2023)

t0xeus said:


> Well I was mostly memeing, SoldierOfficial is the last person for who I can tell what’s going through their mind


I was half asleep and totally fell for it. Urgh

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 6, 2023)

Soldierofficial said:


> lately I'm only getting negative ratings even though I always try to be friendly,


Reallyyyyy


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## Ludi (Jan 6, 2023)

t0xeus said:


> To be honest I think he’s on a mission
> 
> Kinda like how he infiltrated Sannin Band only to betray
> 
> I won’t give away too much intel so it doesn’t leak, but @Raiken better watch his back


Shall I make the video this time

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Fused (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Somehow naruto got stronger than his teen self


He didn't either, pay attention.

Kurama literally tells Naruto that he got rusty and that he's pathetic.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Ludi (Jan 6, 2023)

Soldierofficial said:


> Tier 3: Mid God Level+
> 
> Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki [Base], Hamura Ōtsutsuki [Base]
> Two Rinnegan Jūbi Madara Uchiha
> ...





Soldierofficial said:


> I think my scaling hasn't changed that much in these years, I always had RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke in the lowest part of my god tier around JJ Obito at best.
> 
> My tier list according to feats and portrayal looks something like this:
> 
> ...




I think @Soldierofficial  RAM has been full for some time now and his app outdated, but the preaching for feats and portrayal has been very much appreciated, even if your connection has been unstable and outdated for some time   

And yes! We do appreciate you


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> He didn't either, pay attention.
> 
> Kurama literally tells Naruto that he got rusty and that he's pathetic.


Fight's his Ishikki and smacks him but loses because his chakra got drained. Getting rusty isn't the same as weakening and Kurama always disrespected Naruto this isn't something new. They've trained years before they've reached their current stage and boruto couldn't have made that fact more obvious.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Fused (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Ishikki


Who got destroyed by Pre-Fruit Kaguya.

Accept the fact or accept your defeat.




> and Kurama always disrespected Naruto this isn't something new



Completely wrong, Kurama actually acknowledged that Naruto was an amazing jinchuuriki after the Kaguya fight.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> Who got destroyed by Pre-Fruit Kaguya.


Prove that it was pre fruit Kaguya


Fused said:


> Accept the fact or accept your defeat.


Madara got destroyed by Zetsu
Minato and Chojuro are > Zetsu
Chojuro can fight Kinishiki whos > Kaguya > Madara

So by your scaling it still makes sense


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> Who got destroyed by Pre-Fruit Kaguya.
> 
> Accept the fact or accept your defeat.
> 
> ...


While being caught off gaurd...the same kaguya is literally stated to be a less threat after sasuke read that information. It was literally known that pre chakra fruit kaguya<Pre powerup momoshiki. Ishikki and jigen easily scales above momoshiki who had eaten a chakra fruit, and they scale above kaguya.
No he's acknowledged that the moment he stopped stealing chakra from naruto, and even after that he still was disrespecting him.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Kage 2


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## Goku (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> He didn't either, pay attention.
> 
> Kurama literally tells Naruto that he got rusty and that he's pathetic.


Naruto's battle senses getting dull was in context of him grimacing after being impaled by Sasuke's sword, to which Kurama told him afterwards that he's exaggerating and he's not going to die from something like that. Those events happened prior to Boruto as well.

Against Delta, Naruto was faced with a similar situation where Delta's morphed leg had pierced Naruto, seemingly screaming in pain after Delta kept grinding a piece of her morphed leg into him, but turns out Naruto was just acting. His battle senses aren't as dulled anymore.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Kage 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Fused (Jan 6, 2023)

Goku said:


> Naruto's battle senses getting dull was in context of him grimacing after being impaled by Sasuke's sword, to which Kurama told him afterwards that he's exaggerating and he's not going to die from something like that. Those events happened prior to Boruto as well.
> 
> Against Delta, Naruto was faced with a similar situation where Delta's morphed leg had pierced Naruto, seemingly screaming in pain after Delta kept grinding a piece of her morphed leg into him, but turns out Naruto was just acting. His battle senses aren't as dulled anymore.


Go watch the latest episode of Himawari having picnic with puppies from that dogshit series.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> Go watch the latest episode of Himawari having picnic with puppies from that dogshit series.


Can't debunk so you cope.
Keep honking your clown nose bozo

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 3


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

"Go watch the latest episode of Himawari having picnic with puppies from that dogshit series."

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Fused (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> "Go watch the latest episode of Himawari having picnic with puppies from that dogshit series."


Zoomer, I've been on this forum way longer than you, I've been debunking those terrible arguments for years, it's pointless to repeat myself, I shall not grace you with the privilege of hearing my superb explanations, you'll have to dig my old posts. 

Or are you too busy watching the 23424234242nd episode of the cornball-heads anime


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> Zoomer, I've been on this forum way longer than you, I've been debunking those terrible arguments for years, it's pointless to repeat myself, I shall not grace you with the privilege of hearing my superb explanations, you'll have to dig my old posts.
> 
> Or are you too busy watching the 23424234242nd episode of the cornball-heads anime


My goodness then those debaters were garbage, because why are they getting debunked by you. Yes for 2 years...

I'll use simple words so you can comprehend/under what I am saying, the anime/manga is very good and you should watch it instead of getting a hate boner whenever a one piece fan clowns your ass. Oda is a very good mangaka but he just likes to draw goofy things, but when he get's serious the manga looks beautiful.

Also this u?

He was so happy that he didn't read the entire thing, and didn't know it was talking about drawing. He was so desperate to try to prove something

If you could watch naruto-boruto, then you should have some time to read 1070 chapters of peak fiction.

Fused reminds me of duhul.
You might as well concede and even if you don't you still lost.


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## Altiora Night (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> Zoomer, I've been on this forum way longer than you, I've been debunking those terrible arguments for years, it's pointless to repeat myself, I shall not grace you with the privilege of hearing my superb explanations, you'll have to dig my old posts.
> 
> Or are you too busy watching the 23424234242nd episode of the cornball-heads anime


Fused, you yourself are a Zoomer.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

bb-bbut mmm-my favorite villain is zamamid, he's the best villain.   I understand why you're called fused, because you're fused with L takes, an L resume, and mid opinions.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Creative 1


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## Raiken (Jan 6, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats super odd that you say this because before I got banned I got multiple concessions out of you that would force you to rework your entire God tier scale to put Adult Sasuke at least > Teen Rikudo if you were even remotely reasonable about scaling
> 
> 
> 
> Considering you told me to my face multiple times that you have Jigen as at worst = Juudara


I considered V2 Jigen comparable to Initial Juudara. Prime Juudara >>>> Initial Juudara. 


WorldsStrongest said:


> And you admitted that the Adults, in your own opinion, could have beaten Jigen


Yeah sure, if they had worked together better and actually used more of their arsenal and managed to outlast Jigen. 


WorldsStrongest said:


> And thats without the OHKO wincon of RCT that you INSIST is NEEDED for the Teens to even CONTEST Juudara  As shown here...


RCT is needed for Rikudou Teens to beat Juudara yes. As per Canon statements. 


WorldsStrongest said:


> And again shown here...
> 
> You are VERY adamant on your stance that the Teens are only remotely capable of even contesting Juudara thanks entirely to RCT as a Duo...You know this and EVERYONE who has ever seen you post knows this.
> 
> ...


Yeah that logic would work if I thought V2 Jigen = Prime Juudara, which I don't. I see V2 Jigen as roughly Initial Juudara level. And Transformed Momoshiki as roughly Juubito level.

My Boruto Scaling is based on Hagaromo's Gifted 50% Six Paths Chakra *not being retained Post-Part 2.*

It wasn't retained because imo Kishimoto made it very clear that the halves of Hagaromo's own Chakra that they would receive *was the Six Paths Power of Yin & Yang, contained within their respective Seals.

*




And that power lost it's permanence after Sealing Kaguya when the Seals returned to Ghostromo on Panel, essentially severing their link to Ghostromo's Chakra.



The power was likely temporarily retained some-what into VotE2, but completely expended by the battle's conclusion symbolically with the loss of their dominant arms. Which also explains the loss of Naruto's Rikudou Senjutsu Cloak as an Adult, which is a real thing despite how much you deny it.


WorldsStrongest said:


> And you have even the weaker individual Teen outscaling forms of Juudara in your own words


This one is bizzare, I honestly don't ever remember thinking Rikudou Sasuke could beat Initial Juudara. Fairs if I did... but I don't think that anymore.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Fused (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> My goodness then those debaters were garbage, because why are they getting debunked by you. Yes for 2 years...
> 
> I'll use simple words so you can comprehend/under what I am saying, the anime/manga is very good and you should watch it instead of getting a hate boner whenever a one piece fan clowns your ass. Oda is a very good mangaka but he just likes to draw goofy things, but when he get's serious the manga looks beautiful.
> 
> ...


Don't give a shit about the essay, but what is that cool sigil under my username?


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## Raiken (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Everyday I debate about naruto, I start to realize people will say takes because it can help them push an agenda. Adult sasuke is clearly superior to teen sasuke in every way possible but people would deny it so they can either wank jubidara or downplay the boruto villains.


You do realise a lot of people here can just replace a few words here and claim the opposite.

_"Everyday I debate about naruto, I start to realize people will say takes because it can help them push an agenda. Teen sasuke is clearly superior to Adult sasuke in every way possible but people would deny it so they can either wank the Ootsutsuki's or downplay Juudara."_


> Somehow naruto got stronger than his teen self but...sasuke somehow got weakerThe things people will say to accomplish an agenda


They both got weaker. *The Naruto Gaiden, Boruto Manga & Sasuke Retsuden*, all push the idea of a weakened Naruto & Sasuke, compartively to their Teen Rikudou Selves.

It's obvious as hell, and you guys have been in denail for years, despite the mountains of evidence that has been presented in support of a weakened Fate-Bros. Every time something else comes out, you guys just goal-post shift, it's hillarious.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 4 | Lewd 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> Don't give a shit about the essay, but what is that cool sigil under my username?


It's alright, you set it up in your settings.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

Raiken said:


> You do realise a lot of people here can just replace a few words here and claim the opposite.
> 
> _"Everyday I debate about naruto, I start to realize people will say takes because it can help them push an agenda. Teen sasuke is clearly superior to Adult sasuke in every way possible but people would deny it so they can either wank the Ootsutsuki's or downplay Juudara."_
> 
> ...


Yes I realize that many people can do the same thing.


What exactly do you mean by "Weakened or gotten Weaker" because physical strength, speed, durability, and everything else has gotten weaker....


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## JayK (Jan 6, 2023)

the guy who didn't get solo'd by Zetsu shits

Reactions: Winner 5 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Everyday I debate about naruto, I start to realize people will say takes because it can help them push an agenda. Adult sasuke is clearly superior to teen sasuke in every way possible but people would deny it so they can either wank jubidara or downplay the boruto villains.
> 
> *Somehow naruto got stronger than his teen self *but...sasuke somehow got weakerThe things people will say to accomplish an agenda


No, one Has ever said Adult Naruto has got stronger than His Teen Self not on this side. 

what is assumed is Because Adult Naruto has Both Halves of Kurama+SM that logically he should be much more powerful than Pre-Six path  self by at least 50% of Kurama. 

That is fair To argument since he does have Both 9 tails...so only logical that he would be above BSM Teen Naruto from the War, but  Not Six path Teen Naruto.  due to the fact He no longer has Six Path Sage mode Symbol which was verbatim used to determine Naruto unlocked Six path Senjutsu The same Symbol Hagoromo, JJ Obito, and Madara had. 

Their is a Bigger Reason why Kishimoto decided to Write Adult Naruto in Kurama Mode v2 like he was Pre-Six path Naruto again. 
We've had people make up Idiotic Reason like They wanted a change all type of mental Gymnastics.  At the end of the Day Kishimoto Wrote Naruto weaker giving him a Pre-Six path Mode symbol on his back and then Had the Villain of that Arc call him weaker during peace time because he never evolved himself. 

No one thinks adult Naruto is stronger than his Teen Six path Self  in a form that assuming is like a in between form of BSM and six path Mode.  I seriously doubt Kishimoto just woke up one day and forgot how to sketch SPSM...he did that form a reason not because he wanted a different art style for the form.  Naruto Is stronger than Pre-Six path Naruto Teen self but that it. 

finally their is no statements implying they are more powerful than they were then...people love to use Novel to argue Sasuke's Confidence in fighting Kaguya level threats prove he more powerful than before. That is invalid reason, because he thought he was also confident He could beat Itachi...until we all found out that Itachi was sick and dying on the verge of death from his terminal illness. 

Sasuke was confident he could beat Kakashi and SM Naruto until Obito literally said No, you can't win against Naruto.  so that novel talking about his confidence means nothing. You will most likely ignore all of this because... it doesn't fit your scaling.


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## MYGod000 (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Fight's his Ishikki and smacks him but loses because his chakra got drained. Getting rusty isn't the same as weakening and Kurama always disrespected Naruto this isn't something new. They've trained years before they've reached their current stage and boruto couldn't have made that fact more obvious.


please Show use where Kurama disrespects Naruto during the JJ Madara or Kaguya fight.  he was as quite as a mouse then only after he Got old and Weak during peace time did he start doing that. 

Even when Naruto was fighting Edo Madara Wood release jutsu. the only time Kurama was disrespecting Naruto was part 1 up to when the war started Even Killer Bee noticed that Kurama started to like Naruto when he was helping him fight white Mask Obito. You're being Disingenuous saying he always Disrespected Naruto.


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## Grinningfox (Jan 6, 2023)

The answer is still Adult Sasuke 

Madara doing a bad Hagoromo impression is a beatable fighter and just running off all the powers he has that Sasuke does not,like some are doing here lead to nothing  nothing because they don’t win him this fight on their own.

Mugen, CT, Limbo, TSB, and  both his known Mokuton techniques and physicals are answered by Sasuke’s Perfect Susano’o.


This is all backed by on panel showings.

Madara’s regeneration, and “immortality” are countered by Sasuke’s  S/T Portal as Madara does not have a way to travel between dimensions and won’t be able to resume the fight.

You wanna argue Madara can or should win be my guest, but don’t stop at just comparing the length of their arsenals and actually look at how they interact.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 7


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## Steven (Jan 6, 2023)

Adult Sasuke shit-diffs

Hes faster and stronger.Madara has no win-con at all

Reactions: Agree 5 | Winner 1


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## Raiken (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Hes faster and stronger.Madara has no win-con at all


This is gross.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Goku (Jan 6, 2023)

Raiken said:


> They both got weaker. *The Naruto Gaiden, Boruto Manga & Sasuke Retsuden*, all push the idea of a weakened Naruto & Sasuke, compartively to their Teen Rikudou Selves.
> 
> It's obvious as hell, and you guys have been in denail for years, despite the mountains of evidence that has been presented in support of a weakened Fate-Bros. Every time something else comes out, you guys just goal-post shift, it's hillarious.


Naruto exaggerating a sword stab and Sasuke spending lots of chakra searching for and entering Kaguya's dimension (which led to his ocular powers being depowered as a consequence) were events that happened prior to Boruto.

More than a year later, Naruto similarly gets stabbed by Delta and acted like he was in pain, only to get up and laugh it off despite having a hole in his gut. Sasuke's Rinnegan wasn't depowered and he could use his EMS powers against Momoshiki and Isshiki.

You also avoided @Aegon Targaryen and @WinNo1929 arguments.

Reactions: Winner 7 | Disagree 1


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## Altiora Night (Jan 6, 2023)

Goku said:


> Naruto exaggerating a sword stab and Sasuke spending lots of chakra searching for and entering Kaguya's dimension (which led to his ocular powers being depowered as a consequence) were events that happened prior to Boruto.
> 
> More than a year later, Naruto similarly gets stabbed by Delta and acted like he was in pain, only to get up and laugh it off despite having a hole in his gut. Sasuke's Rinnegan wasn't depowered and he could use his EMS powers against Momoshiki and Isshiki.
> 
> You also avoided @Aegon Targaryen and @WinNo1929 arguments.


Naruto was even briefly out of RSM after Shin had stabbed him and kept applying his MS jutsu, whereas Naruto was able to keep his RSM active after Delta stabbed through him and kept spinning the piece of her leg extensions (while she was removing it) where he was stabbed through.

And if I'm not mistaken, the events of the Gaiden occur at least a year prior to the Chūnin Exams.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> No, one Has ever said Adult Naruto has got stronger than His Teen Self not on this side.
> 
> what is assumed is Because Adult Naruto has Both Halves of Kurama+SM that logically he should be much more powerful than Pre-Six path  self by at least 50% of Kurama.
> 
> ...


I didn't say that anyone said that...I said that naruto is strongest than his teen self and some would agree but when it comes to sasuke he's downplayed.

Exactly why wouldn't he be above his teen self just because he doesn't have six paths abilities anymore? He's still shown feats that would definitely put him above his teen self such as whooping momoshiki before evolution and completely destroying ishikki(before chakra got drained.  Naruto never wrote him weaker, that is just a interpretation due to the fact that he doesn't have his hax abilities as I was going to mention but decided not to so I wouldn't accidentally assume anything. But it seems like my theory was correct lol.  He is still so much stronger, faster, has better pain tolerance and endurance, smarter, and while he may not have his abilities prior to his plot blessed days he's still a stronger person then he was before.

After reading your 3rd paragraph, your reasoning clearly is ...because he has cooler and a better form because it provides him hax and abilities= teen naruto must be stronger. Even though in boruto it is clear that the strongest naruto has ever been  was when he used  BM(baryon mode)...and it's the strongest form but the worst form(due to the time limit and weakness).

You don't need statements when there are feats that he's stronger


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

Raiken said:


> This is gross.


i didn't send that


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> please Show use where Kurama disrespects Naruto during the JJ Madara or Kaguya fight.  he was as quite as a mouse then only after he Got old and Weak during peace time did he start doing that.
> 
> Even when Naruto was fighting Edo Madara Wood release jutsu. the only time Kurama was disrespecting Naruto was part 1 up to when the war started Even Killer Bee noticed that Kurama started to like Naruto when he was helping him fight white Mask Obito. You're being Disingenuous saying he always Disrespected Naruto.


Bro tailed beasts...are unable to get weak when they're inside a Jinchūriki. I said that "kurama was always disrespecting naruto" I didn't say that he did this during his fight against obito+madara or kaguya. They do age but it doesn't even seem like they die of natural causes...

...Firstly killer bee...own jinjuriki who was stated and shown on multiple occasions to be his friend and like him. Yet 8 tails still disrespected him...He never done that when he got old and weak...because he never got weak or old, he still seems relatively young.

No I am not being disingenuous stop tossing that word around like it's a beach ball...I said  "Kurama always disrespected Naruto this isn't something new" this alone you can tell that I don't mean all the time, but he's been doing this since he's met naruto for the first time.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

Adult Sasuke>Madara as I said before.   Tell me what exactly does sp sasuke have that adult sasuke doesnt...except the six paths powers and an arm.


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## Baroxio (Jan 6, 2023)

It's stupid that Adult Sasuke is still missing an arm _and_ that Nagato had to deal with poor mobility when both had access to Asura Realm, which can literally _*create*_ extra arms and rocket legs.


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> It's stupid that Adult Sasuke is still missing an arm _and_ that Nagato had to deal with poor mobility when both had access to Asura Realm, which can literally _*create*_ extra arms and rocket legs.


Nardo lose arm, sauce lose arm
Nardo get arm, sauce...get's no arm
Nardo get new form and loses powerup in style...sauce gets special eyeball stolen by someone he slumped months ago


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## Baroxio (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Nardo lose arm, sauce lose arm
> Nardo get arm, sauce...get's no arm
> Nardo get new form and loses powerup in style...sauce gets special eyeball stolen by someone he slumped months ago


Maybe that's the version of Adult Sasuke they're pitting against Madara?

Half Blind, No Chakra, No Rinnesharingan Sucksgay?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> Maybe that's the version of Adult Sasuke they're pitting against Madara?
> 
> Half Blind, No Chakra, No Rinnesharingan Sucksgay?


That version of chakra gives madara the hardest battle of his life, and he would still lose.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 6, 2023)

Borushiki was wary of Sasuke even after he lost his Rinnegan and was weakened by fighting against Isshiki. I really won't be surprised if Sasuke could push Juudara even without Rinnegan.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## ARGUS (Jan 6, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Borushiki was wary of Sasuke even after he lost his Rinnegan and was weakened by fighting against Isshiki. I really won't be surprised if Sasuke could push Juudara even without Rinnegan.


Wall of fail level argument here

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 6, 2023)

ARGUS said:


> Wall of fail level argument here



Let's see it then


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## ARGUS (Jan 6, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> It's stupid that Adult Sasuke is still missing an arm _and_ that Nagato had to deal with poor mobility when both had access to Asura Realm, which can literally _*create*_ extra arms and rocket legs.


He never had shurado 
Either he never had it or he doesn’t know how to use it 
Take your pick, either way sasuke just looks bad here

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Fused (Jan 6, 2023)

Leave it to the NBD to think that a one-armed cripple can defeat a relative Rinnegan user with two arms, and I'm talking about One-Eyed Juudara btw. Two-Eyed Juudara is already unfair, since it's 2 Rinnegan vs. only 1. 



dabi said:


> *Pre-Kaguya fight WA Kakashi could [beat JJ madara], let alone DMS*



Mind explaining yourself, @Santoryu 


What in the actual fuck is this garbage?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> Leave it to the NBD to think that a one-armed cripple can defeat a relative Rinnegan user with two arms, and I'm talking about One-Eyed Juudara btw. Two-Eyed Juudara is already unfair, since it's 2 Rinnegan vs. only 1.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@dabi isn't @Santoryu.

That would be @Sparks.


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## Fused (Jan 6, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @dabi isn't @Santoryu.
> 
> That would be @Sparks.


Of course you would know, you're a master of dupes here, my dear Maru.

Legend has it, that you don't even know who you are anymore. Are you the dupe or the original?  


And how does @Turrin fit into all of this?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> Of course you would know, you're a master of dupes here, my dear Maru





Fused said:


> Legend has it, that you don't even know who you are anymore. Are you the dupe or the original?



I don't know, you need to ask @MaruUchiha.



Fused said:


> And how does @Turrin fit into all of this?



He doesn't. That's the point. Our boy Turrin is enraged because every one of us has clapped him in the past, and me most recently


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## Grinningfox (Jan 6, 2023)

Baroxio said:


> It's stupid that Adult Sasuke is still missing an arm _and_ that Nagato had to deal with poor mobility when both had access to Asura Realm, which can literally _*create*_ extra arms and rocket legs.


Sasuke remains with no arm out of atonement not from any lack of ability.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Fused (Jan 6, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I don't know, you need to ask @MaruUchiha.
> 
> 
> 
> He doesn't. That's the point. Our boy Turrin is enraged because every one of us has clapped him in the past, and me most recently


First of all, Turrin is "YOUR" boy, not "OUR" boy. I hate that guy ever since this post:




Turrin said:


> He does this all the time to troll
> 
> With that said the funny thing is 4 SM Jiriaya could potentially win this if Frog-Song is effective against Madara; since X4 SM Yomi Numa and X4 FCD Gamahiro/Bunta/Ken would be enough to stall P- Susanoo long enough for one of the 4 Jiriaya to still be standing with Frog-Song going off. I typically don’t like using this argument though because Frog-Song has only worked on Pain, which means it’s best Feat is debatable on Nagato level individuals, and Madara is > Nagato, so it’s unclear if it could work on someone at that level or if Madara would just break free




> Unironically arguing that Edo Madara's PS is losing to Yomi Numa 


Secondly, you yourself have been humiliated many times Aegon Targaryen, I don't think you should make fun of your fellow fodders

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 6, 2023)

Grinningfox said:


> Sasuke remains with no arm out of atonement not from any lack of ability.



That, and I don't even know why we're talking about Asura so much. He can literally make a Susano'o arm to replace his missing arm (and I think he even does in the games, lol).



Fused said:


> First of all, Turrin is "YOUR" boy, not "OUR" boy. I hate that guy ever since this post



Nah, _our_ boy. 

But you can go ahead and embarrass him more, power to you  



Fused said:


> Secondly, you yourself have been humiliated many times Aegon Targaryen, I don't think you should make fun of your fellow fodders



I don't think so, but I do know I've humiliated you and Turrin both plenty of times


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## Grinningfox (Jan 6, 2023)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That, and I don't even know why we're talking about Asura so much. He can literally make a Susano'o arm to replace his missing arm (and I think he even does in the games, lol).


Sasuke, Madara and even Obito all have abilities outside of the Rinnegan that render some of the  paths irrelevant.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Grinningfox (Jan 6, 2023)

ARGUS said:


> He never had shurado
> Either he never had it or he doesn’t know how to use it
> Take your pick, either way sasuke just looks bad here


This is a false dilemma

Reactions: Winner 4 | Disagree 1


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## blk (Jan 6, 2023)

7 pages of discussion and still no one has explained how Madara can counter coreless CT, or worse, Space-Time Ninjutsu.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Friendly 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Fused (Jan 6, 2023)

blk said:


> coreless CT



Madara can do it too. Databook states clearly that Madara unleashed the true power of Six Paths, which means that he will be able to use this power too. Anything Hagoromo can do, Madara can do it too.



blk said:


> Space-Time Ninjutsu.


Preta Path absorbs all Ninjutsu. Preta Path will neg-diff it.

You have conceded that this space-time technique is ninjutsu, thus you concede that Preta Path neg-diffs it.

Face it. Every source that matters -- the Manga, the Databook -- is stacked against you. Concede.

Reactions: Optimistic 5


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## blk (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> Madara can do it too. Databook states clearly that Madara unleashed the true power of Six Paths, which means that he will be able to use this power too. Anything Hagoromo can do, Madara can do it too.
> 
> 
> Preta Path absorbs all Ninjutsu. Preta Path will neg-diff it.
> ...



Madara hasn't shown coreless CT, just normal CT.

But that's besides the points since it doesn't tell us how Madara can come out of it (that's what i was asking). We don't know if he's strong enough to do it physically like Momoshiki did, heck we don't know if his body is tough enough to not get crushed by it in the first place.



No we already know Space-Time abilities can't be absorbed / nullified by anti Ninjutsu abilities.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MYGod000 (Jan 6, 2023)

blk said:


> 7 pages of discussion and still no one has explained how Madara can counter coreless CT, or worse, Space-Time Ninjutsu.



Mountain+ size CT isn't going to stop Madara. 

If Hagoromo Felt that Sasuke Could Just solo  Core-less CT and Win against Madara he wouldn't have given them both Seals. 


At any point in time During the Final chapters of 3rd Eyed Madara Sasuke could have Done that Core-less CT on Madara.  Even Kurama could break out of Pains CT.  They needed a moon Size Six path CT to stop the Madara Which takes Away Dojutsu and chakra like it did against Kaguya.  


Yeah...because Sasuke going to use Space/Time Jutsu portal which will drain away half his chakra.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fused (Jan 6, 2023)

blk said:


> Madara hasn't shown coreless CT, just normal CT.


Irrelevant. The Databook states clearly that Dual-Eyed Juudara unleashed the "TRUE POWER" of the Six Paths





This means that Juudara will be able to form the Rikudou Chibaku Tensei, the massive sealing technique that was used twice against Kaguya, and forms a Chibaku Tensei that doesn't require a gravitational black sphere as its core.


Madara unleashed the T-R-U-E P-O-W-E-R of the Six Paths. There is not a single Six Paths technique that exists that Madara cannot use.


blk said:


> since it doesn't tell us how Madara can come out of it


He'll move one of his Limbo clones away from the battlefield then switch places with it to escape the gravitational pull.


blk said:


> No we already know Space-Time abilities can't be absorbed / nullified by anti Ninjutsu abilities.


Prove that Preta Path can't do it, not just "any anti Ninjutsu ability", or admit that you don't have a crumb of evidence.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 6, 2023)

My favourite thing is the "adults got weaker, its stated"

Where is it stated they got weaker? And stop using "they" when the only negative we know about was *Naruto alone whos BATTLE SENSES DULLED, NOT HIS OVERALL COMBAT STRENGTH*

Nothing is ever mentioned about Sasuke getting rusty or weakened ONCE - instead its stated he fully mastered his Rinnegan and actually surpassed Naruto

The complete ducking of @Goku argument in which his battle sensing dulling has since gone away is gross and dishonest. Naruto not recoginsing how Shin's abilities operate perfectly and then getting countered by it does not mean he got weaker

*So please, lets keep things a buck here. "They" were never stated to be weaker. Naruto only was stated his battle senses have dulled, not that he has gotten weaker overall. Nothing is said about Sasuke *

Reactions: Winner 7


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## MYGod000 (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> Bro tailed beasts...are unable to get weak when they're inside a Jinchūriki. I said that "kurama was always disrespecting naruto" I didn't say that he did this during his fight against obito+madara or kaguya. They do age but it doesn't even seem like they die of natural causes...



Go back and Read the final chapter.


Kurama used up all the remaining chakra he had.  Kurama Can't Generate the other Bijuu chakra. 

then you contradicting what your saying of Kurama Always Disrespecting Naruto as he wasn't Disrespecting Naruto during those fights. 


Unresponsive said:


> ...Firstly killer bee...own jinjuriki who was stated and shown on multiple occasions to be his friend and like him. Yet 8 tails still disrespected him...He never done that when he got old and weak...because he never got weak or old, he still seems relatively young.



That has Zero to do with what you said about Kurama Always Disrespecting Naruto I don't care About how another bijuu Relationship with it jin are...i care about Kurama And Naruto's relationship since you said He always disrespecting him.  To prove your point you talk about another Bijuu? ok


Unresponsive said:


> No I am not being disingenuous stop tossing that word around like it's a beach ball...I said  "Kurama always disrespected Naruto this isn't something new" this alone you can tell that I don't mean all the time, but he's been doing this since he's met naruto for the first time.


you are and then you tried to justify your reasoning by bring up other Characters and bijuu that wasn't Kurama.


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## blk (Jan 6, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> Mountain+ size CT isn't going to stop Madara.
> 
> If Hagoromo Felt that Sasuke Could Just solo  Core-less CT and Win against Madara he wouldn't have given them both Seals.
> 
> ...



Afraid i don't deal with headcanon classifications.

Has Madara shown the strength to break out yes or no? Simple question (the answer is no btw).

Not saying he's 100% defeated by it, actually i can maybe see a few ways he could get out. Still it's a Jutsu that poses a problem for him.


Teen Sasuke was still getting accustomed to Rinnegan, we don't know if he knew it when fighting Madara. Also tbh, the battle with Madara was so short (and they were kicking his ass so hard w/out big Jutsus) that likely he just didn't have time to use it lol

Lastly Hagoromo's seal was needed to defeat Kaguya definitively, obviously standard coreless CT would have been only a temporary thing (especially against Kaguya, however i could see Madara dying if his body is crushed into pieces by it).


Where did you got that Sasuke consumes half of his chakra with Space-Time? lol

And even granting that there is still no reason why it wouldn't defeat Madara.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Turrin (Jan 6, 2023)

Fused said:


> Of course you would know, you're a master of dupes here, my dear Maru.
> 
> Legend has it, that you don't even know who you are anymore. Are you the dupe or the original?
> 
> ...


Fused my child please do not accuse others of duping it only hurts thine soul. It is not the way of a true Hatake. Instead find it in your heart to donate:


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## MYGod000 (Jan 6, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> I didn't say that anyone said that...I said that naruto is strongest than his teen self and some would agree but when it comes to sasuke he's downplayed.



Where is you getting this information from that he is stronger than Six path Teen Naruto? 

He was knocked out by 8 tails chakra from up close....do you think 8 tails can knock out  Six path Teen Naruto? 


Unresponsive said:


> Exactly why wouldn't he be above his teen self just because he doesn't have six paths abilities anymore? He's still shown feats that would definitely put him above his teen self such as whooping momoshiki before evolution and completely destroying ishikki(before chakra got drained.  Naruto never wrote him weaker, that is just a interpretation due to the fact that he doesn't have his hax abilities as I was going to mention but decided not to so I wouldn't accidentally assume anything. But it seems like my theory was correct lol.  He is still so much stronger, faster, has better pain tolerance and endurance, smarter, and while he may not have his abilities prior to his plot blessed days he's still a stronger person then he was before.


Momoshiki who was also being Stalemated by Kages? 

You're Talking about Baryon Mode Naruto now that was beating Opponent who was already going to die in 21 hours before Naruto shortened it.  The only thing we've seen From that Naruto is Taijutsu how would that even do anything Against thing like Limbo which Physical Attack are useless against?  Before Naruto and Sasuke Kojin was holding off Isshiki for an extended period of time and Isshiki was praising the Legendary Sannin.


If Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Tsunada are considered legendary to Otsutsuki like Isshiki what would Madara be considered? Since the Sannin Considered people like Madara and Hashirama Legendary.  Isshiki would not be able to kill Madara or beat him his only chance would be to Attempt to BFR him and then quickly try and leave before Madara attack him stopping him from leaving like Sasuke did Jigen. 



Unresponsive said:


> After reading your 3rd paragraph, your reasoning clearly is ...because he has cooler and a better form because it provides him hax and abilities= teen naruto must be stronger. Even though in boruto it is clear that the strongest naruto has ever been  was when he used  BM(baryon mode)...and it's the strongest form but the worst form(due to the time limit and weakness).
> 
> You don't need statements when there are feats that he's stronger


You didn't name any feats. you just assumed he was stronger.


Pre-Fruit Kaguya killed Isshiki.

Like I said pre-Bayron mode Naruto is indeed weaker than Six path Mode Naruto in the War and you've not brought any valid statements to support your claim, you've not cited any source which supports your claim. The first thing you did was basically argue headcanon.


"Well, Of course he should be stronger than his teen Self he older isn't he?" Assumptions are not proof nor valid evidence to support to case that they are stronger.  Momoshiki was hyped to be Greater threat than Kaguya but he never lived up to that hype at all when he got stalemated by Two Kages prior before Transformed Momoshiki...then was injured by Boruto Attack that prove that pretty much any God Tier can hurt another God tier they don't have God tier Durability this isn't DBZ where people vastly stronger than someone can tank attacks with 0 damage or someone with a 30% Gap Difference and curbstomp another and tank their attacks. 

my reasoning was pretty fair.  Adult Naruto>>BSM Teen Naruto from the War due to the Fact that He has extra Kurama. 

Their nothing that puts Adult Naruto above SPSM Teen Naruto especially when he missing 50% of Hagoromo chakra from Yang Seal.  unless you think 50% Kurama is a bigger power up than Hagoromo Yang Seal their nothing on Adult Naruto side that implies he stronger than that Naruto.  we have Multiple Statements implying Naruto is weaker, we have Visual evidence that Naruto no longer has The Six path Senjutsu  other wise he would still has Hagoromo Symbol on his back when he goes into his full power but he does he has Kurama Symbol indicating a drop in power.


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## MYGod000 (Jan 6, 2023)

blk said:


> Afraid i don't deal with headcanon classifications.
> 
> Has Madara shown the strength to break out yes or no? Simple question (the answer is no btw).



do you have proof he can't break out? 8 tails Kurama Broke out of a bigger CT than Sasuke core less one. 


Kinda silly to think Juubi Jin can't break from smaller CT  but 8 tails Kurama can break out of a bigger CT. 


blk said:


> Not saying he's 100% defeated by it, actually i can maybe see a few ways he could get out. Still it's a Jutsu that poses a problem for him.



where your evidence of this? you've never shown any evidence that suggest Madara would have problems breaking out you just assumed he would is that not headcanon itself? 


blk said:


> Teen Sasuke was still getting accustomed to Rinnegan, we don't know if he knew it when fighting Madara. Also tbh, the battle with Madara was so short (and they were kicking his ass so hard w/out big Jutsus) that likely he just didn't have time to use it lol



He saw Madara use the abilities.  He was getting Accustomed to his Rinnegan by him master than Rinnegan didn't increase his power or anything Madara is already Stated be above sasuke anyone even after he had BPS...but that another argument for another thread.  the fact is You're making crap up and pulling pop out of your arse otherwise cite your source that says Madara would struggle with mountain Sized core Less CT. 


blk said:


> Lastly Hagoromo's seal was needed to defeat Kaguya definitively, obviously standard coreless CT would have been only a temporary thing (especially against Kaguya, however i could see Madara dying if his body is crushed into pieces by it).






He isn't dying No...Hagoromo literally wanted Naruto and Sasuke to work together to seal Madara with six path CT that exactly what they tried to use against him in canon when it came down to it. 


you can argue all you want about what they need but Canon literally showed up they tried to use the Seals on him to defeat him. 


blk said:


> Where did you got that Sasuke consumes half of his chakra with Space-Time? lol



The idea came from the novel stating that.

The fact that after he used his space time he went to struggling against Kinshiki.



who could be taken care of By Two Kages.

 If you think Adult Sasuke=<Adult Naruto


You need to accept the fact that Sasuke was weakened then  unless you think Kinshiki=<Transform Momoshiki there is no way around it buddy.  Space Time Jutsu takes up considerable amount of his chakra  for he to be a Peer of Naruto to drop down to Kinshiki tier.





blk said:


> And even granting that there is still no reason why it wouldn't defeat Madara.


I told you why it wouldn't defeat Madara.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 6, 2023)

Raiken said:


> I considered V2 Jigen comparable to Initial Juudara.


Nice goalpost shift but this is crap and we both know it  


You also claim Isshiki is basically = Prime Juudara, where Isshiki would force Juudara to AT LEAST high diff in your own words in a 1v1 and thats without RCT seals yet again



Raiken said:


> Prime Juudara can arguably win alone High Diff.


And even then you claim its merely “arguable” PRIME JUUDARA beats him

So no bud

No you do not get away with “B…But I just meant the WEAKEST form of Juudara mister! Honest!”

Nah kid

You got rolled by me, you conceded your scale, and you repeatedly contradict yourself

And now youre once again walking back on your word  

Your distinction between V2 Jigen being initial Juudara level only and Isshiki being = prime Juudara also doesnt make sense


Because, again, in YOUR OWN WORDS, you claim V2 Jigens power is = Isshikis


Raiken said:


> He's got the power of Isshiki. And Isshiki is relative to Juudara imo.


And logically speaking, theres no room for such a disconnect between Jigen and Isshikis respective scaling and placement 

At worst, Jigen =< Isshiki, Isshiki is literally 100% reliant on Jigens feats for his own scaling. Worded another way, all of Isshikis most impressive feats and accolades are performed by Jigen…Even Baryon is entirely reliant on scaling to Jigens feats to seem impressive. Isshiki doesnt do anything nearly as impressive as busting Tomoe Rinnegan PS or SPSM BM. Nor does fucking Juudara for that matter prime or otherwise  

You cannot, in any world, justify a Shinju+ sized gap between Isshiki and Jigens performances as Jigens is legit just flat out better. And again, in your own words, you claim they have the same power anyway.



Raiken said:


> Yeah sure


Cool so once again you concede to me that the Adults face a prime Juudara level opponent in your own words and could have defeated him even without the seals. While you double down that the Teens are so far below Madara in your own opinion, they NEED the seals to win.

Thats Adults > Teens out of your own mouth yet again bud  


Raiken said:


> RCT is needed for Rikudou Teens to beat Juudara yes. As per Canon statements.


See?

Doubled down on it




Raiken said:


> Yeah that logic would work if I thought V2 Jigen = Prime Juudara, which I don't.


Yes you do  

Youre just goalpost shifting now cuz you got caught

Dont worry tho, already posted the quotes

And now your cred will once again plummet 

Not that your opposition here values your opinion greatly or anything, just a nail in the coffin really


Raiken said:


> My Boruto Scaling is based on Hagaromo's Gifted 50% Six Paths Chakra *not being retained Post-Part 2.*


Which Ive ALSO already schooled you on how even if we steelman your premise here as true?

It doesnt affect the scaling at all as the feats are simply on another level.

And you have NEVER EVEN ONCE addressed this argument. Not once


WorldsStrongest said:


> And as pointed out to you literally hundreds of times now by yours truly and numerous others...
> 
> Even steelmanning that they lost Hagoromos chakra (but still kept Hagoromos Senjutsu and Rinnegan somehow...Never got how the fuck you managed to reconcile these 2 statements but I digress) after Part 2 that does nothing for your stance.
> 
> ...






Raiken said:


> This one is bizzare, I honestly don't ever remember thinking Rikudou Sasuke could beat Initial Juudara. Fairs if I did... but I don't think that anymore.


Of course you dont  

How convenient that your stance on the matter magically just so happens to have changed the second I pointed out how horridly hypocritical and inconsistent your stance is

Lord jesus its a miracle

Reactions: Winner 3 | Informative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Unresponsive (Jan 6, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> Go back and Read the final chapter.
> 
> 
> Kurama used up all the remaining chakra he had.  Kurama Can't Generate the other Bijuu chakra.
> ...


I didn't say kurama couldn't die from lack of chakra as everyone in the verse will literally die if they run out of chakra...
What I said was "Kurama can't get weak"...you posted a panel that didn't even contradict or debunk my statement.

...kurama can generate chakra lol


Literally disrespecting naruto

Reactions: Winner 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 6, 2023)

t0xeus said:


> To be honest I think he’s on a mission
> 
> Kinda like how he infiltrated Sannin Band only to betray
> 
> I won’t give away too much intel so it doesn’t leak, but @Raiken better watch his back


@Soldierofficial ?

@Soldierofficial ?!

@SOLDIEROFFICIAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

Unresponsive said:


> I didn't say kurama couldn't die from lack of chakra as everyone in the verse will literally die if they run out of chakra...
> What I said was "Kurama can't get weak"...you posted a panel that didn't even contradict or debunk my statement.



Who said anything about Kurama Dying?  please quote me where I said Kurama would die.


Unresponsive said:


> ...kurama can generate chakra lol
> 
> 
> Literally disrespecting naruto


I never Said Kurama Couldn't Generate his own chakra. You're misrepresenting my arguments and strawman me saying things i've never said once in this back in forth. If you're going to debate please properly address my argument not make stuff up that I never said. 


Let me Clarify My Argument again so you will understand. I said Kurama Can't Generate the other 8 Bijuu chakra, Naruto only had a little bit of their chakra From the Bijuu each giving me a small piece of the chakra. How is Kurama Going to generate chakra that is foreign to him?  Are you going to Argue Adult Gaara can Generate Kurama chakra?  Kurama Gave him pieces of his chakra as well.

Are you going to assume Everyone after the War can Generate Kyuubi chakra because Naruto shared Kurama chakra with them.

if your Reply is no then why should we assume Kurama can?


He called him a little shite, he didn't call him pathetic like Kurama Called Adult Naruto.


You're making excuses here Kurama in the Shin battle was talking about Adult Naruto's Fighting skill and said it was crap.

Shin Was the one who claimed they got weaker if he was around Long enough to know Itachi it safe to say he seen Naruto at his best.  Why would Kishimoto write that in his Manga if he it wasn't true?

Kurama can't Generate chakra that isn't his at the end of the Sasuke Fight he used up all his chakra and went to sleep.   Momoshiki would have stated pieces of the other 8 Bijuu are inside Kurama if that was the case. that never stated or implied and their no evidence of that either.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

It looks like no one can answer my question

@Raiken i guess ill ask you here - where is it stated the adults got weaker?

Where is this statement? Does it exist in an anime opening or video game cutscene?

Because as far as Kishimoto's statements go, Fused Momo is an opponent so powerful Kaguya actually couldn't fight him alone

And the adults beat Fused Momoshiki

And the Teens were weaker than WA Kaguya

How does that work guys?

This is super simple scaling.

Adult Naruto and Sasuke > Fused Momoshiki > Momoshiki and Kinshiki > Kaguya >> Madara

Do better everyone. Shippuden is a great series, but we don't need to go to such lengths in order to protect our faves

Keep in mind poor old Madara is a complete even physically with teen SPSM Naruto who was also weaker than Kaguya - who as an adult can throw hands with the person Kaguya was terrified of


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

Also per a posters admission here - god levels dont have god level durability

Therefore considering durability and AP are often linked, Madara's limbo shouldnt be able to damage Adult Sasuke who massively outscales any version of this fodder.

On the flip side, because Madara doesn't have god level durability - nothing he has will tank a chidori


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## Altiora Night (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> It looks like no one can answer my question
> 
> @Raiken i guess ill ask you here - where is it stated the adults got weaker?
> 
> ...





WinNo1929 said:


> Also per a posters admission here - god levels dont have god level durability
> 
> Therefore considering durability and AP are often linked, Madara's limbo shouldnt be able to damage Adult Sasuke who massively outscales any version of this fodder.
> 
> On the flip side, because Madara doesn't have god level durability - nothing he has will tank a chidori


The worst part about the Madara clique is the simple thought of Madara being stronger than Naruto and Sasuke *combined* — as if the two are nothing more than pebbles in front of Madara.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

Altiora Night said:


> The worst part about the Madara clique is the simple thought of Madara being stronger than Naruto and Sasuke *combined* — as if the two are nothing more than pebbles in front of Madara.


Ah yes, the narrative of "Kishi wrote himself into a corner, he didnt know how to make Madara lose" which ignores the part when he stalemated SPSM Naruto clones at a dead even contest which already makes him physically equal to _*one* _of them, let alone two

Even funnier when you consider right after he underwent his sex change into a much more powerful enemy, the duo continue to get more and more powerful and can even show low end relativity to her

But hey, Limbo is cool and strong and the ghost of the Uchiha wins!!!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> It looks like no one can answer my question
> 
> @Raiken i guess ill ask you here - where is it stated the adults got weaker?
> 
> ...



The author also Said Base Momoshiki one shotting the 8 tails up-clones is a power beyond the Gokages in Boruto in the last sentence...let use are common sense here do you think SPSM Teen Naruto is unable to one shot the 8 tails?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

Altiora Night said:


> The worst part about the Madara clique is the simple thought of Madara being stronger than Naruto and Sasuke *combined* — as if the two are nothing more than pebbles in front of Madara.



Who said They  was pebbles? we are not you and all the Boruto fans who think Base Naruto can solo Kaguya and all of Naruto part 2. All we have said was that The gap difference isn't that huge that Naruto can Just solo Juubi Jin in Base when He needed BSM for someone as weak as shin uchiha which was written by the author.

Yes, They did need to work together to Defeat Madara that was the whole point of the Seals was for Naruto and Sasuke to work together and seal him in SPCT which can't be accomplished by them individually.

That what portrayal has for them.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> The author also Said Base Momoshiki one shotting the 8 tails up-clones is a power beyond the Gokages in Boruto in the last sentence...let use are common sense here do you think SPSM Teen Naruto is unable to one shot the 8 tails?


This is a strawman

Also it says he cannot do it up close from the range Momoshiki did

Also FWIW, my post was about the adults who apparently were stated to be weaker.


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> This is a strawman
> 
> Also it says he cannot do it up close from the range Momoshiki did
> 
> Also FWIW, my post was about the adults who apparently were stated to be weaker.



If you think SPSM  Teen Naruto can one shot 8 tails up close from the Same Range Momoshiki did it then You conceded that Adult Naruto is weaker as Kishimoto in the novel states directly that power is beyond the Gokages.

the post was directed at Adult Naruto unless you think Adult Naruto isn't part of the Gokages LMFAO.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> If you think SPSM  Teen Naruto can one shot 8 tails up close from the Same Range Momoshiki did it then You conceded that Adult Naruto is weaker as Kishimoto in the novel states directly that power is beyond the Gokages.


You are strawmanning hard here

Naruto doesn't have the same technique to bring down a bijuu like that at point blank range 

SPSM cant do it either lol

Now, onto the actual topic. Where is the statement that they got weaker? the explicit, bare bones statement


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## Ludi (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Now, onto the actual topic. Where is the statement that they got weaker? the explicit, bare bones statement


It's from nowhere. It's mainly assuming intended downscaled visuals (DC) imply downscaled AP

Reactions: Winner 2


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## blk (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> do you have proof he can't break out? 8 tails Kurama Broke out of a bigger CT than Sasuke core less one.
> 
> 
> Kinda silly to think Juubi Jin can't break from smaller CT  but 8 tails Kurama can break out of a bigger CT.
> ...



Doesn't work like that, you have to prove Madara can break out i shouldn't be the one proving he can't lol

The fact Kurama broke out of a standard CT is irrelevant, because we are talking about coreless CT.

And how do you know Sasuke's coreless CT was smaller or that Sasuke can't make it bigger?



MYGod000 said:


> The idea came from the novel stating that.



Ok so filler nonsense.

I'm afraid we saw in canon that Sasuke could use Space-time at least three times, as he did the day he and Naruto fought Jigen.

In fact the third time he used it he was at death's doorstep and just finished an extensive fight with Jigen, with not much chakra left.

So no, Sasuke doesn't consume half his chakra for performing S/T.



MYGod000 said:


> I told you why it wouldn't defeat Madara.



Headcanon and bs aren't proper arguments.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Fused (Jan 7, 2023)

Altiora Night said:


> The worst part about the Madara clique is the simple thought of Madara being stronger than Naruto and Sasuke *combined* — as if the two are nothing more than pebbles in front of Madara.


But they are nothing more than pebbles in front of Madara? 














Team 7 were bugs compared to Madara, they were nothing more than a wretched sideshow compared to the Infinite Tsukuyomi. And they obviously couldn't do anything to the absolute that is Juudara Chadara.


Naruto and Sasuke agree. That's why Naruto told Madara that he was an idiot to think he was going to 1v1 him, and remarked that only in a 2v1 he could beat him. And that was One-Eyed Juudara btw, before he got two follow-up massive amps in power via Second Rinnegan and Rinnesharingan.

Face it, the Story is clear. These kids are absolute waste of space in front of Madara. They cannot compare.

Madara, like Goku, loves battle. He loves fighting. He loves dancing with strong opponents. But he didn't give a shit about the Fate Bros the entire time and saw them as a useless sideshow. What does this tell you, my dear zoomer?


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> You are strawmanning hard here
> 
> Naruto doesn't have the same technique to bring down a bijuu like that at point blank range
> 
> ...


You're making excuses right now.

You're telling me Attacks like these  wouldn't one shot 8 tails up close? 



what you're saying is non-sense if you think these attack would one shot and Kill 8 tails.  no one is strawman you at all you're the one telling me to my face that SPSM teen Naruto doesn't have the power to one shot 8 tails up close. I'm asking you to same that out loud and then hear out silly and stupid that sounds.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

blk said:


> Doesn't work like that, you have to prove Madara can break out i shouldn't be the one proving he can't lol



No, the Burden of proof is on you buddy you made the claim that he couldn't Break free by a Mountain level core-less CT.

So should we assume JJ Madara can't break out of Pain CT As well since it bigger than Sasuke Core-less one?


blk said:


> The fact Kurama broke out of a standard CT is irrelevant, because we are talking about coreless CT.



it was Bigger than Sasuke's Core-less CT.


blk said:


> And how do you know Sasuke's coreless CT was smaller or that Sasuke can't make it bigger?



I never claimed he couldn't make a bigger one...but for the most part his 9 Core-less CT are smaller than Pains look at the Size of them in comparison  to the landscape. Pains is bigger singular CT is bigger than Sasuke's Multiple CT.


blk said:


> Ok so filler nonsense.
> 
> I'm afraid we saw in canon that Sasuke could use Space-time at least three times, as he did the day he and Naruto fought Jigen.
> 
> In fact the third time he used it he was at death's doorstep and just finished an extensive fight with Jigen, with not much chakra left.



Now the Novel is Filler but you guys love to use the novel to claim someone is fodder.




blk said:


> So no, Sasuke doesn't consume half his chakra for performing S/T.
> 
> 
> 
> Headcanon and bs aren't proper arguments.


How is it BS if Adult Sasuke is Struggling with the Likes of Kinshiki who kages matched but Adult Sasuke is suppose to be equal to Adult Naruto who at half the 9 tails chakra beat the crap out transformed Momoshiki.

unless you think Momoshiki got Weaker from eating Kinshiki  why should we assume Kinshiki is close to Transformed Momoshiki?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> You're making excuses right now.
> 
> You're telling me Attacks like these  wouldn't one shot 8 tails up close?
> 
> ...


Thats not up close?

Momoshiki literally launched the bomb at point blank range - centimetres from his face


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## Yagami Uchiha (Jan 7, 2023)

Adult Sasuke who has access to Six Paths power/chakra, and who fully utilizes his Sharingan + Rinnegan powers and doesn’t job like he does in Boruto, takes this. Besides, it was mentioned in a databook or something that by adulthood Sasuke is the strongest Uchiha to ever live.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

You Heard it from Winno1929



WinNo1929 said:


> You are strawmanning hard here
> 
> Naruto doesn't have the same technique to bring down a bijuu like that at point blank range
> 
> SPSM cant do it either lol


^ He said i'm strawmanning him hard yet i don't see where i'm doing that i'm literally repeating what he said.  Their is no misrepresentation  here. 

He said out his Mouth SPSM Naruto Don't have Techniques to one shot Bijuu at point blank Range...The Juubi has power that could one shot 8 tails which is why Minato had to Teleport it to the Sea, But SPSM Naruto can't.

you're scale is even more messed up than i thought.


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Thats not up close?
> 
> Momoshiki literally launched the bomb at point blank range - centimetres from his face


Yes, I told you do you believe SPSM Naruto centimetres from 8 tails Face wouldn't be able to one shot him and you said no.

You need to explain why Attack that Damaged Kaguya...and would have Destroyed Sasuke PS wouldn't one shot 8 tails up close...when Juubi Dama From the Ten tails would have killed Killer Bee and all of the Shinobi in the alliance.

But I'm a troll according to you but you're telling me SPSM Naruto up close Centimetres from 8 Tails wouldn't be able to one shot him with any of his Rasengan Variants.


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## Altiora Night (Jan 7, 2023)

Fused said:


> But they are nothing more than pebbles in front of Madara?


In your wet dreams, I guess.

Cut the obsession kiddo.

Said to Guy, Kakashi, Minato and Gaara.

Not to Naruto and Sasuke.

Next.



>


Cool, more worthless pictures showcasing Madara's arrogance prior to his downfall. Great.



As well as a screenshot from the same game where not just Madara's own Perfect Susanoo BUT ALSO his Limbo's Perfect Susanoo get taken down by Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo *alone*.





> ...the absolute cuck that is Juudara Cuckdara.


Yes.



> Naruto and Sasuke agree. That's why Naruto told Madara that he was an idiot to think he was going to 1v1 him, and remarked that only in a 2v1 he could beat him. And that was One-Eyed Juudara btw, before he got two follow-up massive amps in power via Second Rinnegan and Rinnesharingan.
> 
> Face it, the Story is clear. These kids are absolute waste of space in front of Madara. They cannot compare.
> 
> Madara, like Goku, loves battle. He loves fighting. He loves dancing with strong opponents. But he didn't give a shit about the Fate Bros the entire time and saw them as a useless sideshow. What does this tell you, my dear zoomer?


1. Madara took off and ran for the hills, looking out for his 2nd Rinnegan after he was being outmatched by 2 kids who have had their new powers for only a matter of minutes.

2. Madara after regaining his 2nd Rinnegan literally had his 4 Limbo (who are supposedly of equal might to him) kept occupied by Naruto's Kage Bunshin (a technique which divides the user's chakra) and his Chibaku Tensei was dealt with by Naruto and Sasuke, who were forced to destroy the satellites, or else everyone in the shinobi alliance would have died if Naruto and Sasuke had ignored them — something Madara used to his advantage.

3. Mugen couldn't do shit to the duo thanks to Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo, and apparently Madara's Limbo were around too. Too bad they're invisible, we can't know if the 4 of his Limbo were desperately trying to penetrate the defense of Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo.

Would be funny if they tried to do that. After all, there's no reason for his 4 Limbo not to attempt to penetrate Susanoo's defense, as it would have allowed for his enemies to get caught within Mugen.



Right ? @Sparks @WorldsStrongest @Goku @Aegon Targaryen @WinNo1929

4 Limbo (each equal to Cuckdara) failing to do what Jigen effortlessly did. The tears would be glorious.

Reactions: Winner 7


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

dude want to argue semantic...I asked do you believe SPSM Teen Naruto can't one shot 8 tails up close  at the same distance and he said no.

I don't care what Techniques Momoshiki used i'm not asking about that i'm asking him do you believe Teen SPSM Naruto (with all His Rasengan Variants ) can't one shot 8 tail.  instead of using common sense like a logical reasonable person he said no Naruto can't do it.

all i'm going to say is Winno i disagree with your reasoning  about Naruto and 8 tails thing it makes 0 sense  We saw 8th Gate Gai almost kill a Juubi Jin...that a Character you have scaled weaker than SPSM Teen Naruto and to have him unable to one shot if not out right kill leagues inferior and Weaker Jin than the Juubi Jin is complete Crap i shocked you even say that but you do think half the 9 tails>half Hagoromo chakra.

We have evidence in Boruto that Adult Naruto is unable to do anything to Divine Tree i just showed you a panel of Teen Naruto one shotting the Divine Tree.

Divine Tree>>>>>8 Tails.

That evidence right there that Adult Naruto is weaker buddy.   think logically and stop being bias. any i'm done debating you it was a good laugh at least but this is why i don't waste time on fodder debaters they can't be reasoned with when they think like that.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> Yes, I told you do you believe SPSM Naruto centimetres from 8 tails Face wouldn't be able to one shot him and you said no.
> 
> You need to explain why Attack that Damaged Kaguya...and would have Destroyed Sasuke PS wouldn't one shot 8 tails up close...when Juubi Dama From the Ten tails would have killed Killer Bee and all of the Shinobi in the alliance.
> 
> But I'm a troll according to you but you're telling me SPSM Naruto up close Centimetres from 8 Tails wouldn't be able to one shot him with any of his Rasengan Variants.


Im not sure what your missing here

Naruto doesnt have the same techniques that Momoshiki has to one shot Bijuu from up close - any iteration

Hence the use of the word "techniques" when describing what Momoshiki did against Gyuki


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## Fused (Jan 7, 2023)

Altiora Night said:


> Said to Guy, Kakashi, Minato and Gaara.
> 
> Not to Naruto and Sasuke.


He had the same dismissive attitude with Naruto and Sasuke.

Madara was also talking to the Kamui user Cuckashi, which means that Kamui is worthless to Madara.


Altiora Night said:


> showcasing Madara's arrogance prior to his downfall.


More like Kishimoto's arrogance.

He made Madara too strong, writing himself into a corner, that's why he had to bend backward to justify Madara being removed from the Story.

Face the simple fact: The Protagonists (Team 7) NEVER, EVER defeated Madara.

This is the simple fact, accept it or be exposed as a copium reality denier.


Altiora Night said:


> As well as a screenshot from the same game where not just Madara's own Perfect Susanoo BUT ALSO his Limbo's Perfect Susanoo get taken down by Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo *alone*.


That's not the point. People don't pay for videogames to lose, so ofc Sasuke (the Player character) was going to win. Nevertheless, Madara shrugged off that setback and cast Mugen Tsukuyomi as per Canon.

The point is that even the videogame (supervised by Kishimoto btw) keeps Madara's attitude in which he doesn't give a shit and isn't impressed at all by Team 7.


Altiora Night said:


> 1. Madara took off and ran for the hills, looking out for his 2nd Rinnegan after he was being outmatched by 2 kids who have had their new powers for only a matter of minutes.


1) Looks like the NBD still doesn't realize that One Eyed Juudara isn't the same as Dual-Eyed Juudara, will 2023 finally be the year when the NBD understands this fact? 

2) Madara also had his new powers for only a matter of seconds, and he had to manage both Rinnegan and Six Paths Sage Mode at the same time, which was more challenging than what Naruto and Sasuke had to do (they only had one power each to manage).

3) He wasn't being outmatched. He casually ragdolled Naruto with Limbo in close quarters, broke his staff with Sage Art Fang of Light technique, figured out how Sasuke's technique worked after only seeing it once, then neg-diffed a sealing attempt by instantly switching with Limbo and flying away to the point that Naruto and Sasuke didn't even perceive what Madara did. 

He went after his second Rinnegan because he knew that Obito was trying to destroy it and he needed the complete Rinnegan pair to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi.


Altiora Night said:


> 2. Madara after regaining his 2nd Rinnegan literally had his 4 Limbo (who are supposedly of equal might to him) kept occupied by Naruto's Kage Bunshin


Yet the Limbo of One-Eyed Juudara was too strong for only 1 clone to handle, which is why two clones had to handle it:






The Limbo against Naruto after that weren't going all out, they were just stalling for time until Madara cast Mugen, the proof of this is that Madara was completely unbothered by the sideshow. Meanwhile, Naruto's clones were going all out as last desperate attempt to prevent Mugen Tsukuyomi, and they still couldn't get through Madara's Limbo.


Dual-Eyed Juudara Limbo > Multiple Naruto clones> One-Eyed Juudara Limbo > One Naruto clone

Manga disagrees with you and agrees with Me.


Altiora Night said:


> and his Chibaku Tensei was dealt with by Naruto and Sasuke, who were forced to destroy the satellites, or else everyone in the shinobi alliance would have died if Naruto and Sasuke had ignored them — something Madara used to his advantage.


As I already proved and the Manga clearly states, Madara was not going all out, because 1) he saw Team 7 as a worthless sideshow 2) he just wanted to buy enough time for himself to cast Mugen. 

So Naruto and Sasuke had to work together desperately to deal with a casual attack move from an unbothered Juudara.




Altiora Night said:


> 3. Mugen couldn't do shit to the duo thanks to Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo, and apparently Madara's Limbo were around too. Too bad they're invisible, we can't know if the 4 of his Limbo were desperately trying to penetrate the defense of Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo.
> 
> Would be funny if they tried to do that. After all, there's no reason for his 4 Limbo not to attempt to penetrate Susanoo's defense, as it would have allowed for his enemies to get caught within Mugen.


Headcanon, not interested.

Madara didn't notice Team 7 survived and the Limbo's orders were just to stall them, not kill them, not yet. This is the facts.

Your headcanon is noted, but largely irrelevant.


Altiora Night said:


> Right ? @Sparks @WorldsStrongest @Goku @Aegon Targaryen @WinNo1929






Damn, looks like the whole circus gang is here, I'm shaking 


Your backup dancers will not save you from the L I've just given you


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Im not sure what your missing here
> 
> Naruto doesnt have the same techniques that Momoshiki has to one shot Bijuu from up close - any iteration
> 
> Hence the use of the word "*techniques*" when describing what Momoshiki did against Gyuki


I don't care about what Techniques of Momoshiki he didn't use that not what i asked you. Stop with the Semantic.

I asked you point blank do you believe SPSM Teen Naruto wouldn't be able to one shot 8 tails upclose and you said no.

I just showed you multiple Techniques Naruto has that would Kill Killer bee liek waht is you saying dude?


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> all i'm going to say is Winno i disagree with your reasoning about Naruto and 8 tails thing it makes 0 sense We saw 8th Gate Gai almost kill a Juubi Jin...that a Character you have scaled weaker than SPSM Teen Naruto and to have him unable to one shot if not out right kill leagues inferior and Weaker Jin than the Juubi Jin is complete Crap i shocked you even say that but you do think half the 9 tails>half Hagoromo chakra.
> 
> We have evidence in Boruto that Adult Naruto is unable to do anything to Divine Tree i just showed you a panel of Teen Naruto one shotting the Divine Tree.
> 
> ...


No one cares what you agree with or disagree with

No evidence says he can't do anything against the divine tree and even by your wacky scaling, he literally fights and shows relativity to Momoshiki who one shot the divine tree as well

The whole 8 Tails part is in reference to Momoshiki being capable of absorbing a technique and firing it back to one shot a tailed beast - a technique that none of the Gokage possess

Naruto after this is literally stated by Momoshiki to be stronger than Gyuki is too, and by a lot so if you want to interpret this statement as Naruto being completely incapable of taking down a Bijuu it would be innacurate per Momoshiki's own words

*Even by your logic of later statements overwriting previous ones, the fact that AFTER this statement we have the author himself saying Momo > Kaguya and Naruto > Momo further proves he can take down JJ level threats, which solidifes the idea that the Gyuki statement is in reference to him lacking the capability to replicate Momoshiki's technique with the Rinnegan which obviously no Shinobi can do*


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> I don't care about what Techniques of Momoshiki he didn't use that not what i asked you. Stop with the Semantic.
> 
> I asked you point blank do you believe SPSM Teen Naruto wouldn't be able to one shot 8 tails upclose and you said no.
> 
> I just showed you multiple Techniques Naruto has that would Kill Killer bee liek waht is you saying dude?


No, you are stone walling me.

Naruto, from teen all the way to a grandpa will never posess the ability to replicate Momoshiki's technique

Saying thats "semantics" because it debunks your argument is worthless

Also if you feel so passionate about it - you would be willing to debate me on this topic. Yet you adamantly refuse to do so


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

*MyGod Logic

"Adult Naruto cannot take down the 8 tails, and the divine tree is >>>> 8 Tails"

Manga: Adult Naruto goes onto beat up Momoshiki, who one shot the divine tree, which also should be >>>> 8 Tails

"Dude stop with the semantics - the author said it so its true"

Even though this statement is explicitly referring to Momoshiki's techniques which are beyond shinobi capabilities - and the idea he cannot take down the 8 tails is contradicted by the fact he can beat up Momoshiki who can 1 shot the divine tree which is >>>> Gyuki*

@MYGod000


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> No, you are stone walling me.
> 
> Naruto, from teen all the way to a grandpa will never posess the ability to replicate Momoshiki's technique
> 
> ...


It semantics because you're using Wording like He can't use the Same techniques.  Ask if i argued that.

The Technique Momoshiki used was a TBB...do you don't think SPSM  Teen Naruto  can use a TBB to one shot 8 tails? You do realize he used that in the war right?

-Snip-


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> It semantics because you're using Wording like He can't use the Same techniques.  Ask if i argued that.
> 
> The Technique Momoshiki used was a TBB...do you don't think SPSM  Teen Naruto  with a TBB could one shot 8 tails?


No, the technique he used was the long ass name rinnegan thing he has

This ability per his own statement allows him to amplify any ninjutsu over 3x its original power - now does Naruto have this ability, yes or no?


MYGod000 said:


> You need help their should be a Meme of Winno Walking out of his house and forgetting his brain because i seriously think he lose his brain thinking this.


Going to drop my response here again so you dont duck it

*MyGod Logic

"Adult Naruto cannot take down the 8 tails, and the divine tree is >>>> 8 Tails"

Manga: Adult Naruto goes onto beat up Momoshiki, who one shot the divine tree, which also should be >>>> 8 Tails

"Dude stop with the semantics - the author said it so its true"

Even though this statement is explicitly referring to Momoshiki's techniques which are beyond shinobi capabilities - and the idea he cannot take down the 8 tails is contradicted by the fact he can beat up Momoshiki who can 1 shot the divine tree which is >>>> Gyuki*


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> No, the technique he used was the long ass name rinnegan thing he has
> 
> This ability per his own statement allows him to amplify any ninjutsu over 3x its original power - now does Naruto have this ability, yes or no?
> 
> ...


Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken which could one shot Multiple island size CT. 

Juubi Dama is stated to be able to one shot 8 tails. 


Then you ignored the Fact Naruto up close could damage JJ Madara but that wouldn't one shot 8 tails? Yeah...ok we don't need to continue this crap show. 

Adult Naruto is weaker than Divine tree Teen Naruto one shot the Divine tree that pretty much proof right their he is weaker as an Adult.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken which could one shot Multiple island size CT.
> 
> Juubi Dama is stated to be able to one shot 8 tails.
> 
> ...


No, you are ignoring my argument. Flat out ignored it. Ignored the Momoshiki technique, as well as my response regarding the Divine Tree


*"Adult Naruto cannot take down the 8 tails, and the divine tree is >>>> 8 Tails"

Manga: Adult Naruto goes onto beat up Momoshiki, who one shot the divine tree, which also should be >>>> 8 Tails

"Dude stop with the semantics - the author said it so its true"

Even though this statement is explicitly referring to Momoshiki's techniques which are beyond shinobi capabilities - and the idea he cannot take down the 8 tails is contradicted by the fact he can beat up Momoshiki who can 1 shot the divine tree which is >>>> Gyuki*


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## Fused (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> No, you are ignoring my argument. Flat out ignored it. Ignored the Momoshiki technique, as well as my response regarding the Divine Tree
> 
> 
> *"Adult Naruto cannot take down the 8 tails, and the divine tree is >>>> 8 Tails"
> ...


Bro, you realize that Base Teen Naruto casually ripped the Divine Tree in half, right? How tf is that impressive

Reactions: Like 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

Fused said:


> Bro, you realize that Base Teen Naruto casually ripped the Divine Tree in half, right? How tf is that impressive


The point he was making is that Naruto as an adult supposedly can't take down the divine tree, even though he can take down Momoshiki who one shot the divine tree, and his logic was the divine tree is >>>> 8 tails which Naruto also cant take down either

It's not about if its impressive, its that his argument in of itself is flawed and contradictory regardless of if you think Madara can defeat Sasuke or not - add on the stonewalling and ducking it becomes even worse


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> No, you are ignoring my argument. Flat out ignored it. Ignored the Momoshiki technique, as well as my response regarding the Divine Tree
> 
> 
> *"Adult Naruto cannot take down the 8 tails, and the divine tree is >>>> 8 Tails"
> ...



Adult Naruto beat Momoshiki With Sasuke help and Boruto Damaged Momoshiki...what more do you want?


Buddy the only thing Momoshiki did was Magnify 8 tails tailed Beast Attack and Sent it back at him at close range.


Ten Tails have the Same Hype About Tenpenchii stating that It is exceeds mankind's Knowledge and too much for Humans to handle.

Ten Tails From the War has the Same Hype as The Move Momoshiki one shotted Killer Bee and that is beyond Gokages.


What about Limbo which one shotted all 9 Tailed Beast up close with physical strength?


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> Adult Naruto beat Momoshiki With Sasuke help and Boruto Damaged Momoshiki...what more do you want?


He was relative to him alone in tangents as well - meaning he scales to someone who can one shot the divine tree >>>> Gyuki


MYGod000 said:


> Buddy the only thing Momoshiki did was Magnify 8 tails tailed Beast Attack and Sent it back at him at close range.


Does Naruto have the technique to amplify other peoples ninjutsu 


MYGod000 said:


> Ten Tails have the Same Hype About Tenpenchii stating that It is exceeds mankind's Knowledge and too much for Humans to handle.
> 
> Ten Tails From the War has the Same Hype as The Move Momoshiki one shotted Killer Bee and that is beyond Gokages.
> 
> ...


Strawman


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## Fused (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> The point he was making is that Naruto as an adult supposedly can't take down the divine tree, even though he can take down Momoshiki who one shot the divine tree, and his logic was the divine tree is >>>> 8 tails which Naruto also cant take down either
> 
> It's not about if its impressive, its that his argument in of itself is flawed and contradictory regardless of if you think Madara can defeat Sasuke or not - add on the stonewalling and ducking it becomes even worse


And the ""Point"" that you and your friends are making is that, supposedly, Juudara is completely outclassed and these new/modern power levels are beyond him.

Yet, you just conceded that oneshotting the Divine Tree is nothing impressive. So, following this logic which you yourself embraced, Momoshiki and Adult Naruto are nothing impressive compared to Juudara and Teen Naruto. They can all destroy the Divine Tree with relative ease.

So you need to explain why tf Juudara cannot compete with these new/modern power levels, when in his Initial, regenerating state he no-sold a direct strike from the same kid who oneshot the Divine Tree in half


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

Fused said:


> And the ""Point"" that you and your friends are making is that, supposedly, Juudara is completely outclassed and these modern/new power levels are beyond him.
> 
> Yet, you just conceded that oneshotting the Divine Tree is nothing impressive.
> 
> So you need to explain why tf Juudara cannot compete with these power levels, when in his Initial, regenerating state he no-sold a direct strike from the same kid who oneshot the Divine Tree in half


Because the divine tree is pointless in making this comparison.

I for one never said the divine tree is relevant in determining who wins here, im literally saying *using the divine tree is only relevant if you think Adult Naruto is so much weaker he can't take down the divine tree*

If you want my explanation on Juudara i can explain that, but it's got nothing to do with whether he can take down the divine tree because he obviously can anyway


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> He was relative to him alone in tangents as well - meaning he scales to someone who can one shot the divine tree >>>> Gyuki



First off,  we need to establish again that not all Ten tails and Divine tree are the same. 

In the Novel it insinuated that Momoshiki turned 8 Tails into a Divine Tree and he was going To turn 9 tails into a Divine Tree who are pieces of  Ten tails chakra.


WinNo1929 said:


> Does Naruto have the technique to amplify other peoples ninjutsu


He doesn't need that Technique to amplify his attack he already has the power to one shot 8 tails. 


WinNo1929 said:


> Strawman


 it not strawman Juubi Tenpenchii has the Same hype as Momoshiki attack that one shotted Killer Bee. 


 Ten tails from the 4th war is greater than all the Bijuu chakra combined.

where is your evidence that all other Ten tails equal All the Bijuu chakra combined from the War?  If you're going to debate you need to accept that fact or at least find me statements which says All Juubi=Each other.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 7, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> First off,  we need to establish again that not all Ten tails and Divine tree are the same.
> 
> In the Novel it insinuated that Momoshiki turned 8 Tails into a Divine Tree and he was going To turn 9 tails into a Divine Tree who are pieces of  Ten tails chakra.


irrelevant, he already used juubi to plant the divine tree he one shot


MYGod000 said:


> He doesn't need that Technique to amplify his attack he already has the power to one shot 8 tails.


Nope, Naruto doesn't have the ability to amplify ninjutsu in that manner, hence the technique part

You refuse to acknowledge this, stonewalling is a form of a concession and i gladly will accept it


MYGod000 said:


> it not strawman Juubi Tenpenchii has the Same hype as Momoshiki attack that one shotted Killer Bee.
> 
> 
> Ten tails from the 4th war is greater than all the Bijuu chakra combined.
> ...


Completely seperate argument


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## Altiora Night (Jan 7, 2023)

More of this kid's rambling. He never learns.





Fused said:


> He had the same dismissive attitude with Naruto and Sasuke.


Yeah, and it's often peeps like that who get their shit kicked afterwards.

As it happened to your lord and savior, whose dream was squashed as he put it.





> This is the simple fact, accept it or be exposed as a copium reality denier.


The only simple fact here is your obsession for Madara, Fused.



> That's not the point. People don't pay for videogames to lose, so ofc Sasuke (the Player character) was going to win. Nevertheless, Madara shrugged off that setback and cast Mugen Tsukuyomi as per Canon.


Lame excuses.

It was still mapped out for Madara's PS and that of his Limbo's to get their shit kicked no matter how much you desperately try to argue around it. 



> The point is that even the videogame (supervised by Kishimoto btw) keeps Madara's attitude in which he doesn't give a shit and isn't impressed at all by Team 7.


Which matters for shits and giggles, but continue.






> 1) Looks like the NBD still doesn't realize that One Eyed Juudara isn't the same as Dual-Eyed Juudara, will 2023 finally be the year when the NBD understands this fact?


Looks like your reading comprehension needs some work bud.

At no point did I compare JJ Madara with 1 Rinnegan and JJ Madara with a full pair.

Only the version with 1 Rinnegan was being talked about in what you quoted, and yes, it is obvious to anyone with a pair of functioning eyes, a functioning brain and who isn't a Madara jizz-guzzler that he had his back against the wall.

Dude was literally struggling against Amenotejikara and only figured about its range limit after running away. 

And what these 2 kiddos demonstrated in that portion of fight is little to what they demonstrated later on, especially against Kaguya and at VOTE2.



> 2) Madara also had his new powers for only a matter of seconds, and he had to manage both Rinnegan and Six Paths Sage Mode at the same time, which was more challenging than what Naruto and Sasuke had to do (they only had one power each to manage).


Here's a perfect illustration of your inability to form appropriate and correct conclusions.

Madara had awakened his Rinnegan many years prior, and already had experience with it ... unlike Sasuke.

And Madara had obtained Rikudō Senjutsu before Naruto did as well, and got to fight multiple people with this power (Obito, Minato, Kakashi, Gaara, and Guy) so that's AGAIN more experience for him.

Grosso modo, Madara had more experience in regards to BOTH powers.

But feel free to deny, as this would only serve to exemplify how much of a delusional kid you are.



> 3) He wasn't being outmatched. He casually ragdolled Naruto with Limbo in close quarters, broke his staff with Sage Art Fang of Light technique, figured out how Sasuke's technique worked after only seeing it once, then neg-diffed a sealing attempt by instantly switching with Limbo and flying away to the point that Naruto and Sasuke didn't even perceive what Madara did.


> "Ragdolled", even though Naruto regained his footing quickly afterwards.

> Same Light Fang that Naruto had easily dodged.

And at that point where Limbo smacked Naruto, Naruto was effectively fighting with both Madara and his Limbo, who were close in range to him.



> He went after his second Rinnegan because he knew that Obito was trying to destroy it and he needed the complete Rinnegan pair to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi.


And ALSO because he was being pressured to get that second eye ASAP.



> Yet the Limbo of One-Eyed Juudara was too strong for only 1 clone to handle, which is why two clones had to handle it:


"Too strong", after it already fell victim to Naruto's Jiton Rasengan.

The clones didn't even get to fight it for you to come up with your self-made conclusion.



> The Limbo against Naruto after that weren't going all out, they were just stalling for time until Madara cast Mugen, the proof of this is that Madara was completely unbothered by the sideshow. Meanwhile, Naruto's clones were going all out as last desperate attempt to prevent Mugen Tsukuyomi, and they still couldn't get through Madara's Limbo.


..."the proof of this is that..."

Now when you said that, I expected a scan or an ad-verbatim statement by your lord and savior to back up your point, but...

".... Madara was completely unbothered by this sideshow..."

Wow.

Fucking wow.

Made-up "proof", routine shit for you. Try better.



> Manga disagrees with you and agrees with Me.


In your wet dreams, which is the only place where Madara reigns supreme.



> As I already proved and the Manga clearly states, *Madara was not going all out*, because 1) he saw Team 7 as a worthless sideshow 2) he just wanted to buy enough time for himself to cast Mugen.


Says you.

Back up what you're saying with a panel of Madara ad-verbatim stating that he's not going all out.

Good ? Now get to fucking work.





> So Naruto and Sasuke had to work together desperately to deal with a casual attack move from an unbothered Juudara.


"Desperately".

When they successfully dealt with all of Madara's meteorites.

And the fact that the original Naruto, Kakashi, and Sakura were safe also means that the clones were still successfully keeping the Limbo at bay by that point.



> Headcanon, not interested.


Sasuke's PS obstructing Mugen T light is no head-canon, Fused, and it's canonically stated that Madara's Limbo were outside. Fuck knows what they were doing.



> Madara didn't notice Team 7 survived and the Limbo's orders were just to stall them, not kill them, not yet. This is the facts.


"Orders were just to stall them."

One more thing to add to your joblist.

Be a good boy and show me the scan where Madara orders his Limbo to simply stall them and not kill them if they have the opportunity to do so.


Didn't ask for a picture of you, Fused.





> Damn, looks like the whole circus gang is here, I'm shaking


You must talking about your clique; in which case I wouldn't know, as a good chunk of them are on my ignore list.



> Your backup dancers will not save you from the L I've just given you


Now now, my dear comedian.

Primo, they aren't back-up. They're here to watch you get destroyed (again).

Secondo, not once have you ever handed out any L to anyone on here.

Try to keep up first. You can do it. Baby steps.

Until then, you get to take one more L.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## MYGod000 (Jan 7, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> irrelevant, he already used juubi to plant the divine tree he one shot



it's not irrelevant because you need to prove that Juubi Divine tree equal Kaguya's Juubi Divine Tree when just the 9 tails by itself is stated to have tremendous chakra and power and full juubi>>>>>9 tails


WinNo1929 said:


> Nope, Naruto doesn't have the ability to amplify ninjutsu in that manner, hence the technique part


he doesn't need it ability to  amplify his ninjutsu;he can still one shot 8 tails which is my premise and what you are denying now.




WinNo1929 said:


> You refuse to acknowledge this, stonewalling is a form of a concession and i gladly will accept it



it wasn't stonewalling because my premise and presupposition Naruto was damaging juubi Jin while Lesser form Juubi are able to tank their own attack the same attack which was stated was going to wipe out the Shinobi Alliance...which includes 8 tails.

for you to do a complete 360  saying he can't one shot 8 tails with the jutsu's i just posted is you out right denial.


WinNo1929 said:


> Completely seperate argument


Which suports my argument Ten tails>>>>>>9 tails other bijuu combined chakra.



let me reiterate my premise again not all juubi are equal in power you just proved my case here. If Momoshiki has had a juubi before then he wouldn't have been shocked calling chakra weaker than juubi enormous.


Momoshiki would crap his pants at Kaguya's Juubi he canon was shocked and crapped his pants at  9 tails a piece of Kaguya's juubi chakra.  when you accept this you accept that Not all juubi are equals...just like not all planets in Naruto are equals as shown by Kinshiki that Earth scales on 16 Otsutsuki scale when 10 is abnormal and needs to be reported to higher up as it law.




either counter this evidence or just stop because you're not telling me nothing new here i already told you what I was talking about and you're focusing on Technique line when i told you in general do you believe SPSM Naruto can one shot 8 tails up close.

I don't care about what Technique he uses i'm talking about his own jutsu.  Even 1 Rinnegan SM Madara knocked out 9 tails Beast from a distance but you think SPSM Naruto can't do it up close LMFAO.


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## ARGUS (Jan 7, 2023)

Are we seriously discussing sasukes measly CT which is the smallest we have seen to date, be a game changer against a far stronger CT user? When even kn8 broke free from a much larger CT
He needed genjutsu to first restrain the bijuu

Genjutsu which wouldn’t work on madara and CT of scale that’s garbage

the idea that he can generate a CT large enough which could trap prime madara is laughable. When madara > juubito > juubi >>>> bijuus

Reactions: Winner 3 | Optimistic 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 7, 2023)

So @Raiken im just gonna give you an out to responding to like actually 99% of my post, truly dont care one way or the other, but whatd Id really appreciate a reply from yall on would be the following 


WorldsStrongest said:


> And as pointed out to you literally hundreds of times now by yours truly and numerous others...
> 
> Even steelmanning that they lost Hagoromos chakra (but still kept Hagoromos Senjutsu and Rinnegan somehow...Never got how the fuck you managed to reconcile these 2 statements but I digress) after Part 2 that does nothing for your stance.
> 
> ...


Cuz Ive proposed this line of thinking like actually a dozen+ times and Ive never got an answer from you

In any thread

Ever

You or your boys here can feel free to answer this very simple question, but an answer would be cool

Sincerely, with all thats pointed out to you up above, and all thats been said to yall and pointed out in this thread regarding how much more impressive the Adult bros are clearly shown to be…Sincerely, and please dont quote this out of context, but why does it matter at all if they have Hagoromos chakra or not?

Like why are yall hung up on that so much in the face of clearly superior feats and scaling?

Or even ignoring that, what keeps you from reading it the quoted way?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 4


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## PFM18 (Jan 8, 2023)

Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo slices Madara open like butter before Madara even knows what's happening

Reactions: Agree 5 | Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

PFM18 said:


> Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo slices Madara open like butter before Madara even knows what's happening


Sasuke lowkey does that in base

He has feats that imply hes unironically > his own susanoo

Naruto too as weird as that sounds

Reactions: Funny 1


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## PFM18 (Jan 8, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke lowkey does that in base
> 
> He has feats that imply hes unironically > his own susanoo
> 
> Naruto too as weird as that sounds


How does that make any sense


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

PFM18 said:


> How does that make any sense


Didnt say it did, used to argue against it myself for months actually 

But its what his feats imply

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Didnt say it did, used to argue against it myself for months actually
> 
> But its what his feats imply


I think it was moreso Isshiki never hit him with a kick as hard as the one he did against the Susanoo - in which he covered a lot more distance compared to short, powerful attacks up close

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

Sasuke cannot fight a BPS tier susanoo, even if you think permanent "my chakra is gone" sasuke is stronger than primesuke for no reason.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> permanent "my chakra is gone" sasuke is stronger than primesuke for no reason.


This was said literally once across the entirety of Boruto

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> This was said literally once across the entirety of Boruto


a lot of things were said, such as only sharingan can handle p1 itachi.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> a lot of things were said, such as only sharingan can handle p1 itachi.


Okay but we aren't talking about P1 - this is about Boruto

When has Sasuke ever had chakra problems in Boruto besides Gaiden?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> When has Sasuke ever had chakra problems in Boruto besides Gaiden?


where HASN'T he had problems with chakra in boruto? there's a whole compilation of moments, ask fused.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> where HASN'T he had problems with chakra in boruto? there's a whole compilation of moments, ask fused.


In the anime maybe

Im asking in the Manga, the canon source material. Do you have an actual scan besides the Gaiden one? 

Shouldn't be hard to find considering you think it happens all the time


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Im asking in the Manga


have you seen fight against isshiki? sasuke literally used 2 chidoris and couple amenos, when primesuke casts 9 chibakus for fun.
he also keeps his sharingan turned out (moment where naruto enters baryon) lol.. even if he doesn't keep saying "shit i'm low on chakra" why would he lower his reactions?


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> have you seen fight against isshiki? sasuke literally used 2 chidoris and couple amenos, when primesuke casts 9 chibakus for fun.
> he also keeps his sharingan turned out (moment where naruto enters baryon) lol.. even if he doesn't keep saying "shit i'm low on chakra" why would he lower his reactions?


I have - and that's not what happened.

He got the fuck beaten out of him, and the more damage you take the more chakra you lose

Him not casting CT is because they would all get shrunk


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> He got the fuck beaten out of him, *and the more damage you take the more chakra you lose*


where is this info from?


WinNo1929 said:


> Him not casting CT is because they would all get shrunk


can you explain me why tf does Sasuke not use genjutsu on Isshiki?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> I think it was moreso Isshiki never hit him with a kick as hard as the one he did against the Susanoo - in which he covered a lot more distance compared to short, powerful attacks up close


Literally headcanon tho

Occams razor tells us that the reason Sasuke can take hits from a guy stronger than the guy who onetapped his susanoo…Is because Sasuke is more durable than his susanoo 

Lots of folk have had loads of interesting theories on how Jigen can break Susanoo but not break Sasukes face as Isshiki, but each and every one of them is 100% conjecture. I had my own theory when the chapters dropped that I was convinced was gonna be the explanation when the dudes Dojutsu got revealed and explained. But boy was I wrong.

Just like everyone else is


Onyx Emperor said:


> Sasuke cannot fight a BPS tier susanoo


Madara doesnt have BPS tier susanoo so thats fine regardless 

Even if you think he can use PS as a JJ, his PS lands exactly where his base does

Wanna guess where that is?

Peer to Naruto and Sasuke at best  

If Narutos KBs can box with 3 eyed Madaras limbo clones, then Narutos BM can box with Madaras PS.

They all get the exact same sized “amp” from using a construct as the rest of them. 

This stupid myth Madara has some mega juiced “susanoo amp” compared to the fate bros constructs when he has worse physical stats than they do AND worse Jutsu AP than they do needs to die  

3 eyed Madaras PS >>> 3 eyed Madaras Base

WA Naruto BM >>> WA Naruto Base RSM

WA Sasuke PS >>> WA Sasuke Base

WA Naruto Base RSM KBs >=< 3 Eyed Madaras Limbo Clones 1v1 

Therefore

WA Fate bros constructs >=< 3 eyed Madaras construct 1v1

The stat difference between their constructs = the stat difference between their bases, as both Naruto and Sasuke are shown peer to Madara that way

I dont get why 0 madara stans get this

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> where is this info from?


Because when you lose cells when you take damage - and Chakra comes from cells

Its why even with Isshiki, he couldn't implant Karma onto Jigen because he had fuck all chakra as a result of getting torn in half.

Its the exact same reason that in every fight, the more damage they take the less abilities they are able to use. 


Onyx Emperor said:


> can you explain me why tf does Sasuke not use genjutsu on Isshiki?


I mean obviously i can't give you a direct statement, but a reasonable assumption would be because Genjutsu is often never used against people relative to you in strength 

Madara never uses genjutsu against Hashirama

Sasuke never uses Genjutsu against Naruto

Sasuke never uses Genjutsu against Kaguya, Madara or Obito

Obito never uses Genjutsu against Naruto


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Because when you lose cells when you take damage - and Chakra comes from cells
> 
> Its why even with Isshiki, he couldn't implant Karma onto Jigen because he had fuck all chakra as a result of getting torn in half.
> 
> Its the exact same reason that in every fight, the more damage they take the less abilities they are able to use.


but it shouldn't be as drastic, it's not just sasuke.. it's naruto also, he's supposed to be chakra monster, but in fight against delta he used his regen a bit, some big rasengans and a tiny lava rasenshuriken. And got tired after that shit. Basically that's level of Fox giving Naruto's clone a bit of chakra to block Madara's forest right after 2 meteors... that's awful. Boruto jutsu spam isn't scuffed, it's non-existent when you remember what Naruto and Sauce used to do in the war.


WinNo1929 said:


> I mean obviously i can't give you a direct statement, but a reasonable assumption would be because Genjutsu is often never used against people relative to you in strength
> 
> Madara never uses genjutsu against Hashirama
> 
> ...


that's a nice theory.... but you forgot how Sauce ez'd Bee with a genjutsu and Bee was whooping Sasuke's ass. 8 tails had to get Bee out of it.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> but it shouldn't be as drastic, it's not just sasuke.. it's naruto also, he's supposed to be chakra monster, but in fight against delta he used his regen a bit, some big rasengans and a tiny lava rasenshuriken. And got tired after that shit. Basically that's level of Fox giving Naruto's clone a bit of chakra to block Madara's forest right after 2 meteors... that's awful. Boruto jutsu spam isn't scuffed, it's non-existent when you remember what Naruto and Sauce used to do in the war.


Naruto was also getting tagged hard by Delta, which further supports my point. Alongside this, he was still using his max speed as well so hes still using chakra draining techniques and putting his all into it

What makes it not drastic? Logically the more damage you take the worse it should get. Isshiki beat Sasuke worse than anyone ever has IMO


Onyx Emperor said:


> that's a nice theory.... but you forgot how Sauce ez'd Bee with a genjutsu and Bee was whooping Sasuke's ass. 8 tails had to get Bee out of it.


One example doesn't contradict all the others.

Bee is also susceptible for Genjutsu, as we saw with Itachi


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Naruto was also getting tagged hard by Delta, which further supports my point.


no, because healing off lungs is kn1 level, aka piece of shit compared to bsm in terms of chakra, let alone spsm.


WinNo1929 said:


> What makes it not drastic? Logically the more damage you take the worse it should get.


for amounts of chakra? sounds made up.


WinNo1929 said:


> One example doesn't contradict all the others.


oh yes it does, it proves that power level doesn't give resistances to genjutsu.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> no, because healing off lungs is kn1 level, aka piece of shit compared to bsm in terms of chakra, let alone spsm.


Stop ignoring my point

Healing is different to constantly getting tagged hard MULTIPLE TIMES, and using a lot of chakra to spam max speed 


Onyx Emperor said:


> for amounts of chakra? sounds made up.


No, i just explained to you through the cells argument which you also ignored


Onyx Emperor said:


> oh yes it does, it proves that power level doesn't give resistances to genjutsu.


if you could actually read, this wasnt my argument

I never said "power level gives resistance to genjutsu", please quote where i said that.

I said its *often never used *which is true, and a reason could be is that these people are "too good" to get genjutsu'd or could break out of it, Bee is a bad example because he has a weakpoint to getting caught in it (and doesnt care anyway because he can always snap out of it) and even then ignores the overwhelming evidence that supports my claim


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Healing is different to constantly getting tagged hard MULTIPLE TIMES, and using a lot of chakra to spam max speed


using kn1 lvl chakra reserves 2-3 times is now hard/a lot of chakra.. for spsm user?


WinNo1929 said:


> No, i just explained to you through the cells argument which you also ignored


yea cuz i want official info.


WinNo1929 said:


> if you could actually read, this wasnt my argument
> 
> I never said "power level gives resistance to genjutsu", please quote where i said that.
> 
> I said its *often never used *which is true, and a reason could be is that these people are "too good" to get genjutsu'd or could break out of it


Sasuke's problem is that he never even tried.


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## Altiora Night (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Stop ignoring my point
> 
> Healing is different to constantly getting tagged hard MULTIPLE TIMES, and using a lot of chakra to spam max speed
> 
> ...


This doesn't get mentioned often, but physical energy is a component of chakra and is derived from all cells in the body.

It would only make sense that if you're in a bad physical condition (whether getting beaten, sick, or tired), your physical energy would be affected, and thus you'd be capable of producing less chakra.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Kage 3


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> using kn1 lvl chakra reserves 2-3 times is now hard/a lot of chakra.. for spsm user?


Concession accepted due to refusing to acknowledge that he is also maxing out his chakra to fight Delta as well, such as his speed and taking repeated blows from her


Onyx Emperor said:


> yea cuz i want official info.


That is your information - got read P1 when kakashi and Sakura explain to Naruto how Chakra works


Onyx Emperor said:


> Sasuke's problem is that he never even tried.


Sasuke never tried against Naruto either

Madara never tried against Hashirama


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Concession accepted due to refusing to acknowledge that he is also maxing out his chakra to fight Delta as well, such as his speed and taking repeated blows from her


wtf? since when was "maxing out speed" CONSUMED ANY CHAKRA for Naruto? lmfao. This shit is made up as fuck.
You're just reaching and trying to find an excuse to why naruto isn't a chakra monster in boruto.


WinNo1929 said:


> That is your information - got read P1 when kakashi and Sakura explain to Naruto how Chakra works


maybe show scan.


WinNo1929 said:


> Sasuke never tried against Naruto either
> 
> Madara never tried against Hashirama


Sasuke learned how to genjutsu only in BoS. BoS Sauce mock-diffs Naruto hence he doesn't need genjutsu. Next time he met Naruto they talked at danzo bridge and that's it.
next time Sauce meets Naruto, Naruto's a perfect jin and Sauce knows genjutsu is useless against a dude like this.


WinNo1929 said:


> Madara never tried against Hashirama


cuz we saw every single mads vs hashi fight and not like 2-3 out of 500... right?


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> wtf? since when was "maxing out speed" CONSUMED ANY CHAKRA for Naruto? lmfao. This shit is made up as fuck.
> You're just reaching and trying to find an excuse to why naruto isn't a chakra monster in boruto.


Oh my god

You realise when characters *use nearly all of their chakra in a move, it will tire them out?

Naruto using his max speed means he is amping himself with a significant portion of his chakra*


Onyx Emperor said:


> maybe show scan.





Onyx Emperor said:


> Sasuke learned how to genjutsu only in BoS. BoS Sauce mock-diffs Naruto hence he doesn't need genjutsu. Next time he met Naruto they talked at danzo bridge and that's it.
> next time Sauce meets Naruto, Naruto's a perfect jin and Sauce knows genjutsu is useless against a dude like this.


Prove he only learnt how to use Genjutsu in BOS

*here is also proof that Sasuke actually measures to see if he can put people in genjutsu or not.

You are refusing to even acknowledge all the other instances - like Sasuke not using genjutsu against madara, or madara not using genjutsu against naruto, obito not using genjutsu against obito*


Onyx Emperor said:


> cuz we saw every single mads vs hashi fight and not like 2-3 out of 500... right?


So he never used it against him?


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Naruto using his max speed means he is amping himself with a significant portion of his chakra


nope, that was never a case. It was natural for Naruto to move fast ever since KCM. 


WinNo1929 said:


> scan


it says nothing about damage on body lowering chakra. I mean sure it should have an impact, but you shouldn't go from "so i spammed the fuck out of susanoo, ameno, chidori, amaterasu, i can easily cast 9 chibakus and continue using susanoo, ameno, and chidoris" to "bro i used 2 amenos and 2 chidoris plz save me"
or from "i spammed over 50 biju bombs, bsm avatar, shared my chakra with the alliance, spammed some insanely large beast rasenshurikens after rikudo amp, time to fight Sasuke" to "bro, a little regen 3 rasengans and a tiny lavarasenshuriken is all i can do".
literally weak and strong doge meme.


WinNo1929 said:


> Prove he only learnt how to use Genjutsu in BOS


did he ever use it before?


WinNo1929 said:


> here is also proof that Sasuke actually measures to see if he can put people in genjutsu or not.


So he measures! Instead of doing nothing! GJ Sasuke, even the dumbest naruto manga version of you (MS) is smarter than your boruto self...


WinNo1929 said:


> You are refusing to even acknowledge all the other instances - like Sasuke not using genjutsu against madara, or madara not using genjutsu against naruto, obito not using genjutsu against obito


I REALLY WONDER WHY THEY DIDN'T USE GENJUTSU ON A SHARINGAN USER, MAYBE CUZ THEY'RE NOT KURENAI?!
and about naruto i already said, perfect jin you know..


WinNo1929 said:


> So he never used it against him?


we cannot know that.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> nope, that was never a case. It was natural for Naruto to move fast ever since KCM.


Moving fast doesnt equal moving as fast as you can


Onyx Emperor said:


> it says nothing about damage on body lowering chakra. I mean sure it should have an impact


Good, you concede on that 


Onyx Emperor said:


> did he ever use it before?


That doesn't mean he didnt know how to do it


Onyx Emperor said:


> So he measures! Instead of doing nothing! GJ Sasuke, even the dumbest naruto manga version of you (MS) is smarter than your boruto self...


Not really, this would simply suggest he doesn't think he can genjutsu Isshiki or that it would be effective


Onyx Emperor said:


> I REALLY WONDER WHY THEY DIDN'T USE GENJUTSU ON A SHARINGAN USER, MAYBE CUZ THEY'RE NOT KURENAI?!


You can genjutsu a sharingan user and break them - similar to how Itachi one shot Kakashi

*Also nice job ignoring Madara never using it against Naruto*


Onyx Emperor said:


> and about naruto i already said, perfect jin you know..


You can genjutsu perfect Jins, Obito did it 


Onyx Emperor said:


> we cannot know that.


Prove that he did. In every fight we see of them he never uses Genjutsu


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Moving fast doesnt equal moving as fast as you can


So you say Naruto didn't move as fast as he can against a4...?


WinNo1929 said:


> Good, you concede on that


you ignore the severity of the impact tho, or you agree it shouldn't be as bad?


WinNo1929 said:


> That doesn't mean he didnt know how to do it


i have every right to assume he didn't know how to use it then...


WinNo1929 said:


> Not really, this would simply suggest he doesn't think he can genjutsu Isshiki or that it would be effective


yea, that was my question, why doesn't he even try? 


WinNo1929 said:


> You can genjutsu a sharingan user and break them - similar to how Itachi one shot Kakashi


Didn't Itachi say Kakashi needed to be uchiha or something?


WinNo1929 said:


> Also nice job ignoring Madara never using it against Naruto


nah no way you said that when i actually did.


WinNo1929 said:


> You can genjutsu perfect Jins, Obito did it


Obito's a stupid guy overall, in instances where he'd instantly win with genjutsu he decided to use kamui and dragged the fight for way longer or actually lost, best examples:
- not using genjutsu on konan right off the bat, instead he used kamui and lost an arm
- not using genjutsu on minato right off the bat, instead he used kamui and minato teleported away


WinNo1929 said:


> Prove that he did. In every fight we see of them he never uses Genjutsu


we see only experienced madara and hashirama fighting, ofc after many and many fight there's no use in genjutsu, hashi learned to counter it.
that doesn't mean he never used it, though you have the right to assume he didn't.
but i have the right to disagree cuz there's no proof for each side.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> So you say Naruto didn't move as fast as he can against a4...?


Repeatedly, no. He only used Shunshin once, while he used it several times against Delta as well as the ramifications of their fight


Onyx Emperor said:


> you ignore the severity of the impact tho, or you agree it shouldn't be as bad?


Which shouldnt be as bad?


Onyx Emperor said:


> i have every right to assume he didn't know how to use it then...


No, you dont. You need to provide proof for your claim


Onyx Emperor said:


> yea, that was my question, why doesn't he even try?


Sasuke is capable of interpreting how strong people are - Genjutsu would most likely be worthless

The other alternative is the whole Otsutsuki are immune to Genjutsu point but i think thats headcanony based


Onyx Emperor said:


> Didn't Itachi say Kakashi needed to be uchiha or something?


He says to *even try to *break it you need to be Uchiha AND have a sharingan - your point was having the sharingan alone can break genjutsu


Onyx Emperor said:


> Obito's a stupid guy overall, in instances where he'd instantly win with genjutsu he decided to use kamui and dragged the fight for way longer or actually lost, best examples:
> - not using genjutsu on konan right off the bat, instead he used kamui and lost an arm


He underestimated her per his own knowledge and wanted to warp her away first


Onyx Emperor said:


> - not using genjutsu on minato right off the bat, instead he used kamui and minato teleported away


He already had the nine tails under genjutsu


Onyx Emperor said:


> we see only experienced madara and hashirama fighting, ofc after many and many fight there's no use in genjutsu, hashi learned to counter it.
> that doesn't mean he never used it, though you have the right to assume he didn't.
> but i have the right to disagree cuz there's no proof for each side.


No, im using your logic against you

Why didnt Madara try to genjutsu Hashirama in any of the flashbacks?


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## dergeist (Jan 8, 2023)

Adult Cucksuke gets neg fodderstomped. He has literally no way of conpeting with Madara. He has no answer to the six paths amped on Jyuubi juice senjutsu nor does he have an answer to Limbo. Sauce couldn't even beat Kinshiki who was getting his shit pushed in by Kurotsuchi and Chadjuro.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Repeatedly, no. He only used Shunshin once, while he used it several times against Delta as well as the ramifications of their fight


if his top speed wasted a lot of chakra, it would def be mentioned, you made up how it wastes a lot of chakra lol.


WinNo1929 said:


> Which shouldnt be as bad?


how damage affects your chakra.


WinNo1929 said:


> No, you dont. You need to provide proof for your claim


it's simple, if you don't use a technique you used later when you could def benefit from it (for example putting haku under genjutsu) meaning you couldn't use it.
either that or p1 sasuke's just stupid as fuck, you rather think he's stupid as fuck?


WinNo1929 said:


> Sasuke is capable of interpreting how strong people are - Genjutsu would most likely be worthless


I'd agree if
A - it was directly stated by Sauce or someone who tried genjutsu
B - he tried it on panel and if instantly failed
But what we have is Sasuke getting nerfed. Remember how Madara tried to summon the nine tails, it made Naruto fall on knees in pain? Madara could abuse the fuck out of it but he didn't even try doing that again.


WinNo1929 said:


> He says to *even try to *break it you need to be Uchiha AND have a sharingan - your point was having the sharingan alone can break genjutsu


yea, i can see how i didn't get the right idea here. but it's still 3 uchihas with sharingans + it was tsukuyomi, not average joe genjutsu.


WinNo1929 said:


> He underestimated her per his own knowledge and wanted to warp her away first


typical obito for you, so saying he could put naruto and fox under genjutsu but didn't do it isn't really an argument.


WinNo1929 said:


> He already had the nine tails under genjutsu


there's no issue with that, he had both yagura and 3t under genjutsu. also torune and fu at once.


WinNo1929 said:


> No, im using your logic against you
> 
> Why didnt Madara try to genjutsu Hashirama in any of the flashbacks?


i said already, didn't i? most likely cuz madara and hashirama already fought many times, hashi had to find a countermeasure for genjutsu.


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> if his top speed wasted a lot of chakra, it would def be mentioned, you made up how it wastes a lot of chakra lol.
> 
> how damage affects your chakra.
> 
> ...


Look rather than go back and forth id be happy to have a vc debate about it as i think that will be easier.

itll allow for my points to come across better too


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Look rather than go back and forth id be happy to have a vc debate about it as i think that will be easier.


nah, i don't like long debates, what about cropping it instead and only debating about what's really interesting to you?


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> nah, i don't like long debates, what about cropping it instead and only debating about what's really interesting to you?


I would have no problem with that but you brought up the other stuff in the first place.

Either way if you feel more comfortable then sure, i could explain the cells argument and the genjutsu parts briefly?


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## Onyx Emperor (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Either way if you feel more comfortable then sure, i could explain the cells argument and the genjutsu parts briefly?


sure, i wanna get over this, i'm playing a game rn.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Onyx Emperor said:


> sure, i wanna get over this, i'm playing a game rn.


Okay no rush

Send me a PM whenever and ill get back to you


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## Magon (Jan 8, 2023)

Madara is basically better version of Sasuke being more versatile, having much more chakra and being completely immortal.

Sasuke wouldn’t be able to do shit and would end up overwhelmed and getting cornered by limbo clones.

Sasuke PS would be carbonized by Juubidamas or wrecked by TSO and then he would end up running out of chakra.

it’s also important to mention that every single damage that Sasuke could possibly inflict would be irrelevant and Madara would regenerate.

madara outmatch Sasuke

Reactions: Winner 3 | Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> So @Raiken im just gonna give you an out to responding to like actually 99% of my post, truly dont care one way or the other, but whatd Id really appreciate a reply from yall on would be the following
> 
> Cuz Ive proposed this line of thinking like actually a dozen+ times and Ive never got an answer from you
> 
> ...


So thats 3 times now in this one thread I get no reply from the Madara camp. Despite tagging and asking each time, and allowing yall to ignore 99% of my post with no judgement, and just address one point. And ya wont even do that.

Yikers

And yall wonder why the rest of the forum doesn’t bother taking you guys seriously in debates…

HINT HINT its cuz you wont fucking debate

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

Magon said:


> Madara is basically better version of Sasuke


A better version of Sasuke with worse stats in every way and worse hax? That Madaras best Jutsu (Mugen Tsukuyomi) DOES NOT work on?

Needless to say that don’t track bud  


Magon said:


> being more versatile


All Basic Rinnegan techniques are shared by both. And outside of the basic techniques, Sasuke is far more skilled with his Rinnegan.

The only thing Madara has over Sasuke is Mokuton, which is entirely negated by Sasuke simply flying with susanoo or swinging in its direction.

Aside from that, Sasuke has the better base arsenal with Raiton thats >>> Madaras and Fire thats >>> Madaras.

So this dont track either 


Magon said:


> having much more chakra


Only solid point youve made so far, but stamina is irrelevant when Sasuke can fight at a God level for an entire day.

And can literally oneshot Madara with hax at any time


Magon said:


> being completely immortal.


Negged by BFR


Magon said:


> Sasuke wouldn’t be able to do shit


Sasuke can literally do everything Madara can in your own words but Sasukes just better at it as opposed to your assertion otherwise.

Madaras the one with no counters to Sasukes game enders, not vive versa


Magon said:


> would end up overwhelmed and getting cornered by limbo clones.


Sasuke has shit on limbo since he was 16

He saw Limbo do literally 3 things, block Narutos strike, phase his own counter, and return to Madara. And after that, Sasuke knew EVERYTHING about Limbo.

He had Madara himself sucking him off for being so clean at figuring it out.

Sasuke wipes his ass with Limbo

Literally just worse Shadow Clones against Sasuke as he can see it and they have a time limit. Not to mention? Sasuke can use his own clones and MORE CLONES than Limbo to counter.

The idea Adult Sasuke is troubled by limbo when rookie war arc Naruto boxed them up 1v1 with Shadow Clones is hilarious 


Magon said:


> Sasuke PS would be carbonized by Juubidamas


Sasuke and Naruto have taken hits > Juubidama in fucking base

Watch the series 

Base Naruto ate an explosion that dwarfs Juubidamas by a factor of literally dozens in The Last

The explosions height is frankly not comparable 


Magon said:


> wrecked by TSO


Do you understand what Six Paths chakra is?

Like at all?

Cuz this is a real trash argument if you do


Magon said:


> he would end up running out of chakra.


Sasuke can fight as long as Naruto can and has the feats to fight all day

No he wont


Magon said:


> it’s also important to mention that every single damage that Sasuke could possibly inflict would be irrelevant and Madara would regenerate.


BFR gg

Also NLF but even steelmanning this youre still wrong about regen saving madara here


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 8, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz this is a real trash argument if you do



Trash


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## PFM18 (Jan 8, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> But its what his feats imply


How? Susanoo being an athereal avatar that's stronger than yourself is just an inherent property of the form. And against Jigen he literally describes it as his full-power or "going all out".

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

PFM18 said:


> How


What do you mean how?

The dude literally takes attacks that can oneshot his susanoo and he doesnt die or get oneshotted by any definition by himself

Susanoo may have more destructive power than he does, but his own durability feats are directly shown to exceed Susanoos

By like an entire degree of separation too

Sasukes durability > Isshikis power > Jigens power > Susanoo durability 


PFM18 said:


> Susanoo being an athereal avatar that's stronger than yourself


Is not how its shown to work anymore through direct feats 

Sasukes shown taking multiple hits from people and attacks stronger than what onetapped his susanoo

If you dont wanna accept Sasuke > hisbown susanoo in durability, onus would be on you to prove that Jigen/Isshiki were actively holding back an utterly massive amount of power when he hit Sasuke vs when he hit Susanoo for some reason. And no proof of that exists, I know as I used to argue the exact same way you are now, but theres legit no evidence to land on anything other than Sasuke > Isshiki power > Jigen power > Susanoo dura.

The only possible damage control for this that has legit any basis in canon and isnt 100% raw headcanon, is that Sasuke, due to having travelled to another dimension at the start of the fight, had his Dojutsu nerfed (despite this not being shown or stated, theres a precedent for it so theres at least some logical basis here) and his PS durability suffered somewhat. But even with that you still land on “Prime PS” Dura > Sasuke > “Nerfed PS” Dura. Not to mention…This argument is pointless anyway as unlike Sasuke, Naruto DOESNT get nerfed at the start of the fight, and Sasukes durability feats exceed his Kurama Avatar as well. So either way, Sasuke lands at an insane level of durability.


PFM18 said:


> against Jigen he literally describes it as his full-power or "going all out".


Even if Susanoo is < Sasuke in durability, Sasuke + Susanoo is still > Sasuke solo

So thered be no contradiction there

Also as I said earlier, Susanoos offence can still be > Sasukes own, so thered be no contradiction in Sasuke referring to it as his full offensive power even with his durability being higher than susanoos either.

Regardless, again, the feats paint a very clear picture of Sasukes dura > susanoos. Theres legit nothing but conjecture to be brought forth to counter that and again, I know this as I pushed back on this exact topic myself for months. But I dropped it. As incredulity and conjecture aren’t evidence.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1 | Dislike 1


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## MYGod000 (Jan 8, 2023)

ARGUS said:


> Are we seriously discussing sasukes measly CT which is the smallest we have seen to date, be a game changer against a far stronger CT user? When even kn8 broke free from a much larger CT
> He needed genjutsu to first restrain the bijuu
> 
> Genjutsu which wouldn’t work on madara and CT of scale that’s garbage
> ...


Glad that some people still have common sense. It sad that People think that low of JJ Madara that Mountain Size CT is going to really be a game changer Against JJ Madara when Hagoromo wanted them to seal him with SCT which is moon level seal and strongest Seal we've seen. 

I see no reason why Madara wouldn't Be able to easily break free from that but we have guys like Blk thinking Madara would really struggle against that small CT.


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## ARGUS (Jan 8, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> Glad that some people still have common sense. It sad that People think that low of JJ Madara that Mountain Size CT is going to really be a game changer Against JJ Madara when Hagoromo wanted them to seal him with SCT which is moon level seal and strongest Seal we've seen.
> 
> I see no reason why Madara wouldn't Be able to easily break free from that but we have guys like Blk thinking Madara would really struggle against that small CT.


Sasukes CT didnt evne compare to the size of peins, and that CT got broken out of by KN8

Judara > juubito > Juubi >>>> All 9 bijuu >>>> Kyuuubi > KN8 
and
Madaras mass CT >>>> Sasukes CT 

sasukes CT is garbage here, and so is his PS, and so are his physical attacks 
sasuke gained no new abiltiies as an adult from the end of the story and in the story he was factually below madara where his superior (naruto) called a weaker madara a fool for thinking he will fight him alone


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## MYGod000 (Jan 8, 2023)

ARGUS said:


> Sasukes CT didnt evne compare to the size of peins, and that CT got broken out of by KN8
> 
> Judara > juubito > Juubi >>>> All 9 bijuu >>>> Kyuuubi > KN8
> and
> ...




Look at it all of his 9 CT combined to one of pains or Nagato's CT it literally the smallest one i huge fan of Sasuke i'm not saying he weaker than Pain and Nagato...only that his 9 CT are the smallest we've seen in canon.

Exactly...i pitty the boruto Fans they have to kill off their brain cells saying Adult Sasuke solo Juubi Jin with Rinne-Sharingan and immortality because they don't want to admit defeat. That is true i've seen people say they don't care if they are wrong they won't ever admit Defeat because they don't like that Member this is why I think this site is full of kids who balls have not dropped LMFAO.

@WorldsStrongest  why are you tagging me for a thread? You not realize Baiting is against the rules? 


If you want to debate do it in this thread, and made if i view you as worthy i may waste my time only for a good laugh at this point.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> Glad that some people still have common sense. It sad that People think that low of JJ Madara that Mountain Size CT is going to really be a game changer Against JJ Madara when Hagoromo wanted them to seal him with SCT which is moon level seal and strongest Seal we've seen.
> 
> I see no reason why Madara wouldn't Be able to easily break free from that but we have guys like Blk thinking Madara would really struggle against that small CT.


If its common sense, then why not debate @Ludi @Aegon Targaryen @Monarch @WorldsStrongest or myself on it?

Why are you so adamant on refusing to have a formal debate where we can reach a conclusion (one that you believe is fairly obvious) but have no issue going back and forth meaninglessly on a 10 page thread that won't ever come to a concrete verdict?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

MYGod000 said:


> @WorldsStrongest why are you tagging me for a thread? You not realize Baiting is against the rules?


Dont think you know what baiting is if you actually wrote this sentence

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> If its common sense, then why not debate @Ludi @Aegon Targaryen @Monarch @WorldsStrongest or myself on it?
> 
> Why are you so adamant on refusing to have a formal debate where we can reach a conclusion (one that you believe is fairly obvious) but have no issue going back and forth meaninglessly on a 10 page thread that won't ever come to a concrete verdict?


Bruh sod an official debate

They wont even actually debate specifically asked individual questions on THIS topic

I have posted a premise like 4 pages ago and not one of em has addressed it despite be saying they can ignore literally all my other arguments in this thread, Im just interested in the one

And they wont do it

Not one of em

Cuz they cant

And they know it

The second they look at the series the way I asked them to in my premise, even in an effort to challenge it, they will autolose literally every point theyeve every tried to raise for the whole “the bros got weaker” argument.

And they all know it

Ive posted said premise on this forum numerous times over the years and each time they see it, they just avert their eyes downward and scuttle back to their car and leave without a word. Every time.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> If its common sense, then why not debate @Ludi @Aegon Targaryen @Monarch @WorldsStrongest or myself on it?
> 
> Why are you so adamant on refusing to have a formal debate where we can reach a conclusion (one that you believe is fairly obvious) but have no issue going back and forth meaninglessly on a 10 page thread that won't ever come to a concrete verdict?



Don't bring me into this, I ain't gonna debate someone who isn't at least funny

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sparks (Jan 8, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> So @Raiken im just gonna give you an out to responding to like actually 99% of my post, truly dont care one way or the other, but whatd Id really appreciate a reply from yall on would be the following
> 
> Cuz Ive proposed this line of thinking like actually a dozen+ times and Ive never got an answer from you
> 
> ...


Made a similar post on this previously.



Sparks said:


> The problem is people believing BSM is a fixed level. Naruto and Minato's Senjutsu enhanced coop Rasengan made via both 50% Kurama avatars is more or less what a 100% BSM Nauto would be capable of at that point in time. And that Rasengan when aided by Tobirama's FTG only managed to stalemate an offensive TSB construct (formed with a single TSB) wielded by Obito. Yes, a Senjutsu enhanced coop TBB would have performed better, but that is beside the point.
> 
> We see Base Naruto in The Last be able to form, throw, and guide FRS using a single hand. Previously Naruto required at minimum SM to be able to hurl FRS, and he required the chakra control of KCM2 at minimum to be able to form it with a single hand. So his strength and chakra control in base need to be comparable to SM and KCM2, respectively to perform that feat.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

Sparks said:


> Made a similar post on this previously.


Of course you did

Cuz you’re reasonable 

And we understand that concept as its happened a million times in shonen and a thousand times in Naruto alone

Madara stans just stonewalling as always


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## Perfect Susano (Jan 8, 2023)

Can't believe something as common sense as Madara>Sasuke got to 10 pages. None of the arguments in this thread make even the slightest bit of sense. Too much psuedo-intellectualism to even take seriously.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 5


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Perfect Susano said:


> Can't believe something as common sense as Madara>Sasuke got to 10 pages. None of the arguments in this thread make even the slightest bit of sense. Too much psuedo-intellectualism to even take seriously.


Says the dude who has Momoshiki > Kaguya, and then has the Adults like 4 tiers below Momoshiki and even below the teens who were weaker than Kaguya

Reactions: Winner 4


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

Perfect Susano said:


> None of the arguments in this thread make even the slightest bit of sense


Says the kid, like the rest of the madara stans, attempting to counter none of them

Even the most streamlined versions 


Perfect Susano said:


> Too much psuedo-intellectualism


says the stonewaller

Reactions: Agree 2


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Its super straight forward

Kaguya is stronger than Madara

Sasuke and Naruto can fight (and defeat) people who are positively compared to Kaguya (on her level or above)

This means they are stronger than they were as teens.

Madara fans are actually saying "I dont care what the author said, because...." and then in the next sentence "Authors words > yours"

Can't make it up. Its like Zetsu's blitz left a psychological scar on you all

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Perfect Susano (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Says the dude who has Momoshiki > Kaguya, and then has the Adults like 4 tiers below Momoshiki and even below the teens who were weaker than Kaguya


You clearly don't understand my scaling or the story's, so this retort means nothing. Discourse with you is a waste of time. Arrogant, yet can't form coherent arguments. That describes the majority of people that are arguing for Sasuke here. Completely biased, atrocious debating behavior.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Its super straight forward
> 
> Kaguya is stronger than Madara
> 
> ...


Naruto has also been called the strongest shinobi in history numerous times in the manga, anime, films, novels and databooks AND promo material 

And in each case, Sasuke is always called his ONLY rival and the ONLY one who could ever even come close to competing.

Madaras name never comes up in canon and Legit once a year tops in anime filler Thats corroborated by nothing

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Perfect Susano said:


> You clearly don't understand my scaling or the story's, so this retort means nothing. Discourse with you is a waste of time. Arrogant, yet can't form coherent arguments. That describes the majority of people that are arguing for Sasuke here. Completely biased, atrocious debating behavior.


Thanks for describing yourself for me

Unfortunately i didn't ask for a description, i asked you to try and make sense of your nonsensical scaling that you so arrogantly repeat across a variety of threads.

If Momoshiki is > Kaguya, then how are the Adults 3/4 tiers below him and somehow below their teenage counterparts

Reactions: Winner 3


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Perfect Susano said:


> You clearly don't understand my scaling


No one fucking does

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2023)

WinNo1929 said:


> Thanks for describing yourself for me
> 
> Unfortunately i didn't ask for a description, i asked you to try and make sense of your nonsensical scaling that you so arrogantly repeat across a variety of threads.
> 
> If Momoshiki is > Kaguya, then how are the Adults 3/4 tiers below him and somehow below their teenage counterparts


> momo is above kaguya
> Naruto legit has the power in him at 50% to fucking oneshot even an amped Momoshiki
> Naruto is 4 tiers below Momoshiki or Kaguya or his teen self who was weaker than Kaguya

Where is he losing you 

Adult Naruto at 50% >>> Fused Momo >>> Base Momo > Kaguya > Teen Naruto >>> Adult Naruto at 100%

EZ gg

Reactions: Kage 1


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## WinNo1929 (Jan 8, 2023)

Perfect Susano said:


> You're a waste of time. Read the story properly for once and you would know the answer. It also isn't my fault that you can't read my tier list properly. Regardless of whether you disagree with it or not, the character positions are clearly labeled and explained. You would know how I scale Momoshiki if you had properly read it.


No, your tier list doesn't make sense at all like Worlds pointed out

Maybe you should have put 50% Naruto > Momoshiki >>> 100% Naruto

"Weakness exposed" also doesn;t make sense because he still has the speed and taijutsu to lverpower them 1v1 - the same skills that are > Kaguya


Perfect Susano said:


> Hurr durr _"unfortunately I didn't ask for a description"_. You aren't smart and you don't get bonus point for acting like a fool. Onto the ignore list you go. Simply a garbage poster that can't even think for yourself nor understand something that's been clearly explained 100 times.


In other words, 

"I have no idea what im talking about"

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Charisma (Jan 8, 2023)

WorldsStrongest said:


> So thats 3 times now in this one thread I get no reply from the Madara camp. Despite tagging and asking each time, and allowing yall to ignore 99% of my post with no judgement, and just address one point. And ya wont even do that.
> 
> Yikers
> 
> ...


I will give you my answer to your question. And it does not at all invalidate my thinking, though it may for the people you are trying to antagonize.

Naruto has the chakra of all Tailed Beasts. Sasuke has Hashirama's DNA. Their Six Paths powers are, by logical inference, usable irrespective of Hagoromo's chakra. It doesn't even make sense for Sasuke to still have the chakra, because Hagoromo's chakra was sage chakra, and Sasuke doesn't have sage chakra anymore.

Is it possible that Naruto and Sasuke, despite losing Hagoromo's chakra, still got stronger anyways? Sure. It's possible. The point, however, is that it's doubtful. Naruto and Sasuke have never been stated or shown to have trained. They don't need to, which is why they have been noted to become rusty in a time of peace and reformation. They don't have any feats to suggest that they are completely superior to their previous selves. The only feats that would suggest this, the ones you completely rely on, come from a movie. Sad to say, but I can't take the feats of a movie seriously.

That is the only disconnect between us. The manga does not at all present to us a picture of Naruto and Sasuke becoming vastly stronger. I don't take movie feats seriously, and so my thinking is completely consistent.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 12:01 AM)

Charisma said:


> Naruto and Sasuke have never been stated or shown to have trained.


Naruto was stated in The Last to constantly be pushing himself to new heights in pursuit of Hokage

Post this however, it is most likely he never trained or was in actual battle hence Kurama's statement 

After this though, Naruto never had an issue with "rust" again, implying he most likely was training



Charisma said:


> They don't have any feats to suggest that they are completely superior to their previous selves. The only feats that would suggest this, the ones you completely rely on, come from a movie. Sad to say, but I can't take the feats of a movie seriously.


What? @Sparks literally explained this, as well as the fact Naruto can tank moon level attacks which he never showed the ability to do in Shippuden

You not taking a movie seriously is an argument from incredulity. Kishimoto wrote this movie and called it *chapter 699.5 for a reason. You not taking this as canon means your entire opinion is irrelevant as The Last is essentially an animated manga chapter*

Alongside this, there are *several statements that push the narrative that Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya is. When something is repeated ad nauseam to you, its called repetition - a literally technique that is used to strongly emphasise a point that the author is attempting to convey to their audience*

So Momoshiki is > Kaguya, per Kaguya's own admittance too and Naruto and Sasuke scale to this Momoshiki - which therefore scales them over Kaguya. 

Not just the movie buddy.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MYGod000 (Monday at 12:30 AM)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto has also been called the strongest shinobi in history numerous times in the manga, anime, films, novels and databooks AND promo material
> 
> And in each case, Sasuke is always called his ONLY rival and the ONLY one who could ever even come close to competing.
> 
> Madaras name never comes up in canon and Legit once a year tops in anime filler Thats corroborated by nothing



Yet there are conflicting Evidence that contradicts Naruto Statements. 


Especially Since Apparently Adult Naruto and SPSM Teen Naruto can't one shot 8 tails. 


Madara is literally Sasuke with a Juubi.  The Fact that Adult Sasuke is shocked By a Juubi Being Pinned down yet according to you he is above Rinne-sharingan Madara who tiers more powerful than the Juubi. 





How is he more powerful When He is shocked by Fodder being Sealed? These are you're words since you think juubi is fodder To adult Naruto and Sasuke yet they can't do anything against it. 

 can Sasuke even use Rinnegan Rods?  If not then How is he stronger when he can't use a Base Rinnegan Ability that can restrict Bijuu? 

In the anime Momoshiki Stated Sasuke has comparable Strength to 8 tails.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Germa 66 (Monday at 12:31 AM)

People that think Sasuke are so tragic

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## MYGod000 (Monday at 12:49 AM)

If you're Going to Tag me in a thread about Madara being Irrelevant @WorldsStrongest please Explain to me why Juubi being Sealed by Rods is such a Big deal to Adult Sasuke? 

 Explain Why Adult Naruto and Sasuke can't do anything against the Divine Tree when he saw Teen Naruto slice the Divine Tree? 

Explain Why Momoshiki compared Adult Sasuke Strength to Killer Bee? 


Explain all this without Mental Gymnastic and hiding.


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## ARGUS (Monday at 1:02 AM)

Sparks said:


> Made a similar post on this previously.


Lets see


Sparks said:


> The problem is people believing BSM is a fixed level. Naruto and Minato's Senjutsu enhanced coop Rasengan made via both 50% Kurama avatars is more or less what a 100% BSM Nauto would be capable of at that point in time.


Sure 


Sparks said:


> And that Rasengan when aided by Tobirama's FTG only managed to stalemate an offensive TSB construct (formed with a single TSB) wielded by Obito. Yes, a Senjutsu enhanced coop TBB would have performed better, but that is beside the point.


actually TSB wasnt really stalemated, they swatted aside the two avatars while all the rasengans could maange was a slight crack 
TBB wouldve performed better but wouldnt have cut it either 


Sparks said:


> We see Base Naruto in The Last be able to form, throw, and guide FRS using a single hand. Previously Naruto required at minimum SM to be able to hurl FRS, and he required the chakra control of KCM2 at minimum to be able to form it with a single hand. So his strength and chakra control in base need to be comparable to SM and KCM2, respectively to perform that feat.


however an FRS tossed by his KCM2 and SM forms would still be stronger than his base form FRS due to it powered by a stronger chakra source 
so your point on strength and chakra control of his base being comparable to SM and BM, is not relevant at all when looking solely at the power of FRS and the fact that in a battle against stronger oppoennts, it would have to be through SM and BM forms rather than base  


Sparks said:


> Naruto's strength and chakra control then increase with each additional mode he stacks on.
> 
> >When Naruto adds SM, not only are his basal chakra reserves greater due to natural physical growth, but also because he has 100% Kurama's chakra that would continue to merge with his own, and with a fully opened seal no less. That means he is going to need to balance proportionally more natural energy to enter SM (which then leads to a far stronger SM). His control of the mode has also increased over time as stated by Adult Naruto.


Again, while this is fine, this isnt relevant when comparing *BSM adult naruto to Manga RSM Naruto *
two vastly different forms 
him having more mastery and familiarity with kyuubi means nothing when the source of RSM and SPSM is a far stronger buff than anyhting kyuubi and toad SM can manage 

Kyuubi even on its own to the max of his ability and when buffed with toad SM of the highest ability wouldnt hold a candle to the juubi. yet manga RSM naruto was dealing with JJs.

so the idea just cus narutos base is superior to his last form, and as if that kyuubi mastery ad toad SM mastery would play a  factor and explain his inferior form being stronger than his superior form is laughable and baseless 


Sparks said:


> >Then Naruto stacks on a KLM that is twice as strong and has twice as much chakra.
> 
> You wind up with a Naruto that has strength and chakra control that are several levels displaced from an equivalent mode during the WA, considering TL Naruto shows equal or greater parameters in Base.


No he doesnt 
even RT madara with just 1RG showed us that he is above all bijuu in power 
Narutos manga RSM was a form that is equivalent to hagoromos yin (which is the full power of his Rinnegan) 

RSM = Full power RG >> 1RG > Bijuus >>> Kyuubi on its own 

this isnt DBZ, wherre your zenkai makes your base form above a previous arcs SSB or that kind of nonsense 

strength that his RSM form has, will always be far above what his base or BSM form can manage, for the same reasoning that you are stating which is much stronger chakra

i am literally using your own logic to show how the opposite of what youre saying is infact true 


Sparks said:


> An analogy could be the Eight Gates. If Adult Lee through training wound up being as strong in Base as Gai was after unlocking the 1st Gate, then all Lee's Gated states would become proportionally stronger than Gai's by that amount. If Base Lee was as strong as 2nd Gate Gai, then each of his Gated states would be two levels displaced from Gai's feats.


True, except in narutos case there has beeen zero correlation to his toad SM or BSM forms stacking above RSM 
nor can it even be possible since his base source can never exceed what hagoromo himself simply inherited, given hes just a devolved edition of ashura on his own, and kyuubi being a devolved edition of juubi, and toad SM being fodder infront of SPSM 

this entire point has no relevance to what you intend to convey 


Sparks said:


> Of course, anything to elevate Madara at the expense of any other characters feats.


Yeah, except i dont give a darn how madara looks or in downplaying sasuke 
sasuke simply hasnt gained jack shit to suggest he has surpassed madara 
his full power is still PS, and madara witnessed that, yet it was made evidently clear that both of them were needed to take him down 

madara is literally a better version of sasuke, who also happens to have the shinju, juubi, SPSM and Rinnesharingan. hence he wins


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## WorldsStrongest (Monday at 1:05 AM)

Charisma said:


> I will give you my answer to your question. And it does not at all invalidate my thinking,


Cool

Belt it


Charisma said:


> Naruto has the chakra of all Tailed Beasts. Sasuke has Hashirama's DNA. Their Six Paths powers are, by logical inference, usable irrespective of Hagoromo's chakra.


I mean you dont even need to go that far

Sasuke has a Rinnegan in his face and Naruto is directly shown and stated using Six Paths Sage Mode

Youd think this alone would prove to folk that they retained their power and only build on it, but nope. Even this basic observation gets stonewalled.


Charisma said:


> It doesn't even make sense for Sasuke to still have the chakra, because Hagoromo's chakra was sage chakra


Not touching this but its wrong


Charisma said:


> Is it possible that Naruto and Sasuke, despite losing Hagoromo's chakra, still got stronger anyways? Sure.


Cool that makes you a million times better than the trolls in this thread already 


Charisma said:


> The point, however, is that it's doubtful.


It isnt

Literally every piece of evidence we are given about them suggests they improved and are stronger than ever.

Legit everything 

Sasuke has better mastery over numerous Rinnegan powers now, his base attacks are on a completely different scale than they ever were before, he is remarked upon numerous times to have become Narutos equal even without his previous 9 Biju amp, and is stated to still be improving.

Naruto received another freaking Kurama half in addition to as you noted, retaining the powers and chakra of all other Biju as well, hes stated to have trained and improved himself constantly as well in The Last, and is shown to have once again got on par with Sasuke while he was “rusty” in Gaiden. Once again indicating improvement. 

And finally, their feats are in another universe of scale and power now.

Conversely, theres 0 evidence they got weaker. Legit 0.

There is 0 statement that they even lost Hagoromos power and nor is that remotely logical to assume as we already went over…They still have all the Powers he gave them…

Yall cant even prove literally the biggest crux of your argument, that they no longer have the Sages chakra. That in and of itself is 100% conjecture from you guys.

Theres nothing, not a DB statement, not a manga statement, not a film statement, not an anime statement, not a novel statement that says or even implies “they got weaker”. It is literally all headcanon. Because if you guys had ANYTHING AT ALL that points to Naruto AND Sasuke having PERMANENTLY lost power compared to their war arc selves (obviously pre rinnegan/kurama loss)???

We wouldn’t be having this debate EVER and we would have NEVER started it. Because all that would happen would be Yall pointing at the scan and saying “nuff said” but you cant and havent ever done that. Instead, its just stonewalling theory after stonewalling theory.

Back in the day it was “look at how bad Naruto and Sasuke are in Gaiden! CLEARLY they suck now”…Which was shit on literally the same day the chapters came out as we are told even back then that the reason for said performance was Sasukes nerfed Dojutsu and Naruto being rusty. Neither of which are permanent nerfs, so yall moved on from this to find more cope.

Then we had “oh Naruto doesnt even have the other Biju chakra anymore hes way weaker”…Then we are shown in the manga he still can use their KKGs and everything so yall dropped that and went onto something else.

Next it was “well CLEARLY Naruto isnt even using SPSM anymore since hes not wearing the same chakra pyjamas so CLEARLY hes weaker”…Then we were directly told Naruto was still using SPSM as he fought and yall went onto the next act of building yet another cope stonewall.

 Do you see a pattern yet?

Literally every excuse the madara fandom has ever clung to has been taken from them. Every single possible excuse is directly debunked by the text. Not one point yall have raised has ever held up to scrutiny…Not one. So now? Now its literally just “make shit up and deny canon” time, and weve been in this line for years now.




Charisma said:


> Naruto and Sasuke have never been stated or shown to have trained.


They have been actually 

Numerous times

Sasukes use of portals ALONE debunks this sad attempt at an argument 

He clearly trained to gain control if his Rinnegan and use his Dojutsu at a levek that only fucking Kaguya before him replicated…AND has since improved even his own use of portals as use of them doesnt even take away Tomoe in his eye anymore…Thats Current Sasuke > Gaiden Sasuke > WA Yin Seal Sasuke right there

What even is this?


Charisma said:


> which is why they have been noted to become rusty in a time of peace and reformation


1. Theres no fucking “they” with this and there never was. This applied ONLY to Naruto and NEVER Sasuke. Sasuke underperformed in Gaiden due to being nerfed from spamming Kaguya levek fucking feats…Sasukes “rust” is never brought up. Hes never rusty. He trains constantly. Hence the portals.
2. Naruto is directly shown = Sasuke post Gaiden in every one of their fights. He is no longer rusty. He trained and is literally shown training in the manga at least once when he was doing so with Boruto and he used the Biju chakra. “Rust” isnt a fucking disease, he trained and improved and lost the rust. Not an argument anymore.


Charisma said:


> They don't have any feats to suggest that they are completely superior to their previous selves.


Naruto literally palmed a moon laser in base with some kyuubi fart on his hand at best

This is, to this day, the single most impressive feat ever performed by a Naruto character according to physics and science.

By a lot.

So this is untrue

Also in the manga, they are shown exceeding their damn avatars in stats in direct 1:1 comparisons so yes…Theyve improved. Their feats are on another level.


Charisma said:


> The only feats that would suggest this, the ones you completely rely on, come from a movie.





Charisma said:


> Sad to say, but I can't take the feats of a movie seriously.





Charisma said:


> That is the only disconnect between us. The manga does not at all present to us a picture of Naruto and Sasuke becoming vastly stronger.


This is all legit more stonewalling 

The film is canon and was worked on by Kishimoto and this is common knowledge 

You do not get to “not consider” it and be taken seriously

I cant just “not consider” all the canon information about Madara that I cant refute. Like I cant just pretend hes not immortal because “i dont take it seriously” and thus Sasuke can now cut his head off gg…Nah kid. Not one person on my side has to ignore canon material to make our argument. Never have. Aint that interesting?

Well needless to say Im impressed I even got a reply, but the content of said reply was nowhere near the level I wanted it to be

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 1:10 AM)

MYGod000 said:


> The Fact that Adult Sasuke is shocked By a Juubi Being Pinned down yet according to you he is above Rinne-sharingan Madara who tiers more powerful than the Juubi.


This cannot be real

He was shocked the enemy was hiding away a Juubi


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## JayK (Monday at 1:44 AM)

Sorry Simpara sisters but only one of those 2 characters would lose to Black Zetsu.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 4


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## MYGod000 (Monday at 1:50 AM)

WinNo1929 said:


> This cannot be real
> 
> He was shocked the enemy was hiding away a Juubi



why would he be shocked by something Like that if He above Momoshiki who yall have above Kaguya who massively above Prime JJ Madara who is leagues and tiers above a juubi? 

That don't make no sense at all...


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 1:55 AM)

MYGod000 said:


> why would he be shocked by something Like that if He above Momoshiki who yall have above Kaguya who massively above Prime JJ Madara who is leagues and tiers above a juubi?
> 
> That don't make no sense at all...


Because he didn't know that Otsutsuki's carried Juubi's with them


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## Charisma (Monday at 1:56 AM)

WinNo1929 said:


> After this though, Naruto never had an issue with "rust" again, implying he most likely was training


That's not an implication at all, really. Boruto still hates his dad specifically because he does nothing but Hokage work.



> Alongside this, there are *several statements that push the narrative that Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya is. When something is repeated ad nauseam to you, its called repetition - a literally technique that is used to strongly emphasise a point that the author is attempting to convey to their audience*
> 
> So Momoshiki is > Kaguya, per Kaguya's own admittance too and Naruto and Sasuke scale to this Momoshiki - which therefore scales them over Kaguya.


No there isn't? Sasuke states he investigated Kaguya because he thought is was weird that White Zetsu were the foundation for the army. He came to conclusion that Kaguya made them, and thus it's *possible* that there is someone more threatening than her. He later finds her scrolls and has them decoded, verifying that there is indeed people she was preparing the White Zetsu for.

It was just Sasuke's hypothesis that someone could exist stronger than her. The only thing confirmed is that there were people she was preparing for. Keyword being "people," as in not Momoshiki, but him and Kinshiki together. Not only that, but we are told that after eating the Holy Fruit she became paranoid, so such thoughts of betrayal are par for the course. The only time the idea Momoshiki is stronger was ever pushed was when he states it's merely a thought of his.



			
				WorldsStrongest said:
			
		

> Sasuke has better mastery over numerous Rinnegan powers now, his base attacks are on a completely different scale than they ever were before, he is remarked upon numerous times to have become Narutos equal even without his previous 9 Biju amp, and is stated to still be improving.


Numerous Rinnegan powers? Is that a joke? He's only learned how to create portals. He doesn't have any other feats. Not a single one? And the guy went from noob to using Planetary Devastation and Preta Path absorption just after fighting Madara and Kaguya. His physicals and chakra levels didn't improve during that time, but his usage did. So, it clearly doesn't take any real training to improve Rinnegan usage. This is a common pattern, after all. Doujutsu usage has never taken much, if any, training to improve.



			
				WorldsStrongest said:
			
		

> Naruto received another freaking Kurama half in addition to as you noted, retaining the powers and chakra of all other Biju as well, hes stated to have trained and improved himself constantly as well in The Last, and is shown to have once again got on par with Sasuke while he was “rusty” in Gaiden. Once again indicating improvement.


Naruto has definitely gained the other half of Kurama. I acknowledge that. The extent to which it actually improves him is not a known factor, though.



			
				WorldsStrongest said:
			
		

> Yall cant even prove literally the biggest crux of your argument, that they no longer have the Sages chakra. That in and of itself is 100% conjecture from you guys.


I definitely can. The fact you believe Hagoromo's chakra isn't sage chakra is 100% conjecture on your part, I would say. But you don't want to touch on that, so no need.



			
				WorldsStrongest said:
			
		

> Next it was “well CLEARLY Naruto isnt even using SPSM anymore since hes not wearing the same chakra pyjamas so CLEARLY hes weaker”…Then we were directly told Naruto was still using SPSM as he fought and yall went onto the next act of building yet another cope stonewall.


I'm not a advocator of him not having it, but your proof is wrong. Naruto never says he has Six Paths Sage Mode. He just mentions that it exists.



			
				WinNo1929 said:
			
		

> What? @Sparks literally explained this, as well as the fact Naruto can tank moon level attacks which he never showed the ability to do in Shippuden





			
				WorldsStrongest said:
			
		

> The film is canon and was worked on by Kishimoto and this is common knowledge
> 
> You do not get to “not consider” it and be taken seriously
> 
> I cant just “not consider” all the canon information about Madara that I cant refute. Like I cant just pretend hes not immortal because “i dont take it seriously” and thus Sasuke can now cut his head off gg…Nah kid. Not one person on my side has to ignore canon material to make our argument. Never have. Aint that interesting?


This is the most controversial idea here, though. I'm sure we can all agree that potency and range are two different things. So, why is Toneri's attack "moon level" and superior to everything shown prior in the story?

Hinata, Shikamaru, Sakura (?), and Sai also survive a "moon-level" attack. Toneri's second strongest, in fact: Silver Wheel Reincarnation Explosion.

I've heard your argument, WorldsStrongest, but it has never made sense. You exclaim Toneri overcame the gravitational binding energy (GBE). Do you even know what that is? Cutting something in half is not overcoming that object's GBE. It is the energy needed in a system to stop its components from being bound to each other by gravity. By that, you are wrong on strong accounts. The first being that the components of the moon are the particles as compared to themselves, or the core as a reference. Separating a half from another is not each particle from every other particle. Furthermore, Toneri separated the halves, but he didn't even stop them from being gravitational bound to each other. If you weren't aware, you can not be touching something and be gravitational bound to it. Not a single part of what Toneri did counts as overcoming the moon's GBE. Slapping a random figure of 2-to-the-whatever joules of energy to a feat after presenting a random scientific word is a bit incredulous, don't you think?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## MYGod000 (Monday at 2:01 AM)

WinNo1929 said:


> Because he didn't know that Otsutsuki's carried Juubi's with them


He didn't say that in the manga.

He wondered what type of Entity could seal it. Go read the manga and Stop being willfully ignorant. 



He said this After looking at an Entire wall full of Otsutsuki's.


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 2:01 AM)

Charisma said:


> That's not an implication at all, really. Boruto still hates his dad specifically because he does nothing but Hokage work.


That doesn't mean his rusty. Its also stated his shadow clones are always deployed across the village too, which is what enables him to multitask.


Charisma said:


> No there isn't? Sasuke states he investigated Kaguya because he thought is was weird that White Zetsu were the foundation for the army. He came to conclusion that Kaguya made them, and thus it's *possible* that there is someone more threatening than her. He later finds her scrolls and has them decoded, verifying that there is indeed people she was preparing the White Zetsu for.
> 
> It was just Sasuke's hypothesis that someone could exist stronger than her. The only thing confirmed is that there were people she was preparing for. Keyword being "people," as in not Momoshiki, but him and Kinshiki together. Not only that, but we are told that after eating the Holy Fruit she became paranoid, so such thoughts of betrayal are par for the course. The only time the idea Momoshiki is stronger was ever pushed was when he states it's merely a thought of his


No it's not.

First off, the author explicitly says "they were enemies even Kaguya could not oppose without an army". The authors words are directly saying they are so powerful Kaguya cannot even fight them without an army.

Kaguya's scroll *confirmed his hypothesis (which he stated) that the army was in preparation for greater threats than her. Kaguya's scroll also mentioned Momoshiki and Kinshiki directly by name and even if you say she was scared of their fusion or whatever (which is fine) - Naruto and Sasuke still scale to that fusion 

She is never stated to be paranoid. Show me where it says she is paranoid

Sasuke's thoughts are confirmed by her own scroll, the author himself says she is weaker than they are, he had the hypothesis in Gaiden originally - hell its even foreshadowed in Shippuden that she needed the assistance of an army to fight, but for what reason?*


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 2:02 AM)

MYGod000 said:


> He didn't say that in the manga.
> 
> He wondered what type of Entity could seal it. Go read the manga and Stop being willfully ignorant.
> 
> ...


He wondered who sealed it, now _how _it could be sealed


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## MYGod000 (Monday at 2:13 AM)

WinNo1929 said:


> He wondered who sealed it, now _how _it could be sealed


He said what kind of entity Did this...

While looking at a wall of Otsutsuki aliens.


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 2:15 AM)

MYGod000 said:


> He said what kind of entity Did this...
> 
> While looking at a wall of Otsutsuki aliens.


Yeah, wondering who it could have been

Remember at this time he didnt know Otsutsuki's carried Juubi's, and he didnt know Jigen was an Otsutsuki either

The mural being right next to them is information, so he looked over to learn more about his situation


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## Charisma (Monday at 2:18 AM)

WinNo1929 said:


> That doesn't mean his rusty. Its also stated his shadow clones are always deployed across the village too, which is what enables him to multitask.


Sure. I'm just saying there's nothing in the manga that points to him training.



> No it's not.
> 
> First off, the author explicitly says "they were enemies even Kaguya could not oppose without an army". The authors words are directly saying they are so powerful Kaguya cannot even fight them without an army.


You cut off a bit. It starts with "In other words." It's merely restating what Sasuke said. It's not a direct statement from the "author."



> Kaguya's scroll *confirmed his hypothesis (which he stated) that the army was in preparation for greater threats than her. Kaguya's scroll also mentioned Momoshiki and Kinshiki directly by name and even if you say she was scared of their fusion or whatever (which is fine) - Naruto and Sasuke still scale to that fusion *


"I'll leave out the details for now and cut to the chase... it was essentially a warning of these two's attacks."

I'm not sure he says what you think he says.



> She is never stated to be paranoid. Show me where it says she is paranoid


She is. By Hagoromo.


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 2:20 AM)

Charisma said:


> Sure. I'm just saying there's nothing in the manga that points to him training.


Okay - but even then we know he now doesn't have issues with "rust" 


Charisma said:


> You cut off a bit. It starts with "In other words." It's merely restating what Sasuke said. It's not a direct statement from the "author."


It was literally the author commentating over Sasuke's translation of the scroll. Spoken from the authors perspective. 


Charisma said:


> *"I'll leave out the details for now and cut to the chase... it was essentially a warning of these two's attacks."
> 
> I'm not sure he says what you think he says.*


"Our suspicions were confirmed"upon the translation

His suspicions that they were stronger than Kaguya


Charisma said:


> *She is. By Hagoromo.*


Show me where he uses the word Paranoid please


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## MYGod000 (Monday at 2:24 AM)

WinNo1929 said:


> Yeah, wondering who it could have been
> 
> Remember at this time he didnt know Otsutsuki's carried Juubi's, and he didnt know Jigen was an Otsutsuki either


..........He literally Looked at a Wall of clan members from the O-Clan

how would you not be able to put that context clue together that Well maybe it was an Otsutsuki....with little knowledge on Kaguya he suspected that she was buiding an Army for someone based on Nothing but Gut Feeling but he can't figure this out when he right inside a Dimension full of Otsutsuki images?  


WinNo1929 said:


> The mural being right next to them is information, so he looked over to learn more about his situation


You still never addressed my points before where i Asked you to prove This New Juubi=Juubi From the war or the Juubi From 1000+ years in the past. 

Sasuke Was craping his pants at a Bijuu having a Rinnegan. It's almost as if he never Fought the Juubi in the War who had a Rinnegan.


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 2:28 AM)

MYGod000 said:


> ..........He literally Looked at a Wall of clan members from the O-Clan
> 
> how would you not be able to put that context clue together that Well maybe it was an Otsutsuki....with little knowledge on Kaguya he suspected that she was buiding an Army for someone based on Nothing but Gut Feeling but he can't figure this out when he right inside a Dimension full of Otsutsuki images?


Yeah, he wanted to confirm what it was

The Kaguya thing is a good example. He knew she was building an army - but he didnt know what for, so he investigated it.

He knew the ten tails was in the Otsutsuki realm - but had no idea why or how it was there


MYGod000 said:


> You still never addressed my points before where i Asked you to prove This New Juubi=Juubi From the war or the Juubi From 1000+ years in the past.


The Juubi would be > the WA Juubi because the WA Juubi had lost chakra in the form of the 8 and 9 tails.


MYGod000 said:


> Sasuke Was craping his pants at a Bijuu having a Rinnegan. It's almost as if he never Fought the Juubi in the War who had a Rinnegan.


Show me where he was scared

Also lets debate this too


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## Charisma (Monday at 2:35 AM)

WinNo1929 said:


> Okay - but even then we know he now doesn't have issues with "rust"


Sure. Being rusty is not a permanent issue.



> It was literally the author commentating over Sasuke's translation of the scroll. Spoken from the authors perspective.


Not really from the author's perspective, though. The 3rd person is only restating what Sasuke did in another perspective. That pre-text changes the context completely. If I use that pre-text and restate what you say, it is not my personal belief. I am just reiterating what you said.



> "Our suspicions were confirmed"upon the translation
> 
> His suspicions that they were stronger than Kaguya


And is that not just what you personally want to believe? Why isn't it the suspicions he had of Kaguya preparing for someone? Why does it have to be that suspicion?

The quote I gave is not ambiguous at all, but yours is.



> Show me where he uses the word Paranoid please


He doesn't use that word specifically, just that she'd gone "mad."


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 2:46 AM)

Charisma said:


> Sure. Being rusty is not a permanent issue.


We seem to agree on this then - that any concept that they are rusty isnt a concern Momo fight and onwards


Charisma said:


> Not really from the author's perspective, though. The 3rd person is only restating what Sasuke did in another perspective. That pre-text changes the context completely. If I use that pre-text and restate what you say, it is not my personal belief. I am just reiterating what you said.


No its not. The Author is literally giving us a commentary on the current situation. There is no way around ths statement that Momo/Kin > Kaguya


Charisma said:


> And is that not just what you personally want to believe? Why isn't it the suspicions he had of Kaguya preparing for someone? Why does it have to be that suspicion?
> 
> The quote I gave is not ambiguous at all, but yours is.


Nothing is ambigious about it

Sasuke verbatim said he had thoughts that there was a greater threat than Kaguya - upon learning abt Momo/Kin from her scroll his hypothesis was correct.

Her own words confirmed his suspicions


Charisma said:


> He doesn't use that word specifically, just that she'd gone "mad."


Mad is not the same as paranoid


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 3:05 AM)




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## MYGod000 (Monday at 3:31 AM)

WinNo1929 said:


> Yeah, he wanted to confirm what it was
> 
> The Kaguya thing is a good example. He knew she was building an army - but he didnt know what for, so he investigated it.
> 
> ...


No it wasn't.



If you're claiming it more powerful than the Juubi in the War then you're also saying it more powerful than the Juubi in the Past 1000 years ago.

Kurama stated the Juubi 1000=all 9 bijuu chakra combined.



The Juubi in the war is greater than all 9 Bijuu put together. 

 according to Momoshiki the 9 tails alone has Ridiculously Enormous chakra.

Again War Arc Juubi>9+Other Bijuu chakra combined. 


WinNo1929 said:


> Show me where he was scared
> 
> Also lets debate this too



He was sweating from seeing a Bijuu in Otsutsuki Realm...why Sweat at something that is Fodder?

Sasuke wasn't Sweating from Shin uchiha and according to you boruto Fans Shin>Juubi Jin.


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 4:49 AM)

MYGod000 said:


> according to Momoshiki the 9 tails alone has Ridiculously Enormous chakra.


The Nine tails does have lots of chakra

Momoshiki never said its over the ten tails

So you have no other way of disproving my claim

Sweating can also be used to symbolise shock


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## TraderJoe (Monday at 1:19 PM)

Are people still trying to assert that Sasuke confirms that Momo/Kin are stronger than Kaguya by saying his suspicions are confirmed after the scroll is deciphered? Or perhaps, he's just talking about his assumption that the two he fought were from the same clan as Kaguya:



Also, we are literally told Kaguya's insane. If the fact she thought a fodder Zetsu army was somehow relevant wasn't obvious enough...

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MYGod000 (Monday at 2:37 PM)

WinNo1929 said:


> The Nine tails does have lots of chakra


I never denied that.

If 9 tails has Massive Ridiculous chakra then Juubi From the War has massively higher chakra than the 9 tails.


WinNo1929 said:


> Momoshiki never said its over the ten tails


No he didn't...However, why would he Be shocked by the chakra If you're telling me all Otsutsuki have had Ten tails and we See Momoshiki in Canon and in the anime on Shinjuu AKA Evolved Ten tails?

You've never addressed that point.


WinNo1929 said:


> So you have no other way of disproving my claim


You asserted the claim and have to prove it; a claim isn't proven fact.  I can claim many things but it means nothing unless proven.  Momoshiki Being shocked by 9 tails chakra stated it was Ridiculous.  But After Eating Chakra fruit from an Evolved Ten tails  doesn't make such claims.

That proves at least that not all Ten tails Are equals just like Not all Chakra Fruit are equal.  You claimed the Ten tails From the War is weaker than Ten tails that Jigen has in his realm.

I showed you no it isn't the Ten tails From the War is stated in boruto to be Greater than the combined chakra of all 9 bijuu.

The Ten tails in the past 1000 years ago is stated by Kurama to equal all 9 bijuu chakra combined.

War arc Ten tails by those Statements>Ten tails 1000 years ago.

On top of that We've Seen War Arc Juubi spamm Juubi Dama's. Jigen Ten tails hasn't do any of this at all, Before you argue Well his movements are restricted with rods so he can't do anything.

Don't forget 8 tails was also restricted by Rods from Momoshiki and Still could let off a Tailed Beast Bomb.




The Biggest threat that Juubi of Jigen is capable of is Turning to the Divine tree if boruto or Kawaki are sacrificed to him.


WinNo1929 said:


> Sweating can also be used to symbolise shock


That expression was also shown when He had the "?!" that along with Sweating.

If you're saying Juubi is greater than 9 tails which has greater chakra than Sasuke i see no reason why Sasuke would be scared of it since he Stated this About the Ten tails


Sasuke literally said Jigen was going to drain the planet Dry of chakra as well as Naruto and Sasuke by using that Juubi.


Why not kill the Juubi Since you're Arguing Adult Sasuke can kill JJ Madara who is the Juubi itself. Killing a Juubi Should be childs play then by your logic especially if your premise is Adult Sasuke and Naruto>Kaguya Because they could fight and kill Momoshiki who should be above Juubi.

Yet he did nothing to that Juubi what make you think he can do anything to Madara?


Juubi from the War is established>all 9 bijuu combined power and chakra.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## kayz (Monday at 2:45 PM)

TraderJoe said:


> Are people still trying to assert that Sasuke confirms that Momo/Kin are stronger than Kaguya by saying his suspicions are confirmed after the scroll is deciphered? Or perhaps, he's just talking about his assumption that the two he fought were from the same clan as Kaguya:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, we are literally told Kaguya's insane. If the fact she thought a fodder Zetsu army was somehow relevant wasn't obvious enough...


Kaguya getting insane (more like an obsession) from absorbing chakra/power would contradict the info from Boruto about the Otsutsuki species' evolution.

There might have been another reason but it's not just about consuming the chakra fruit. 

Again, what humans may call insanity may just be the will of he Otsutsuki.


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## TraderJoe (Monday at 2:50 PM)

kayz said:


> Kaguya getting insane (more like an obsession) from absorbing chakra/power would contradict the info from Boruto about the Otsutsuki species' evolution.
> 
> There might have been another reason but it's not just about consuming the chakra fruit.


Perhaps. But we know that the Earth's chakra fruit is special so this could have been a contributing factor. In addition, Kaguya, herself, could be predisposed to mental instability. We know she's not a normal Ōtsutsuki as she betrayed Isshiki, whereas Kinshiki was willing to sacrifice his life for Momoshiki.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## kayz (Monday at 2:52 PM)

MYGod000 said:


> No it wasn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do know the 9 tails can absorb natural energy, right?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Monday at 3:06 PM)

kayz said:


> You do know the 9 tails can absorb natural energy, right?



So can the juubi from the War.





Just Like Kurama the Juubi can Amass Massive amounts of energy from the planet to use for Attacks or to transform into it higher forms.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Monday at 4:22 PM)

JayK said:


> Sorry Simpara sisters but only one of those 2 characters would lose to Black Zetsu.


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## Fused (Monday at 4:26 PM)

JayK said:


> Sorry Simpara sisters but only one of those 2 characters would lose to Black Zetsu.


Last I checked, Black Zetsu is an Otsutsuki and the child of Kaguya herself.

Sasuke isn't beating any Otsutsuki by himself. Most certainly not Black Zetsu Otsutsuki, heir of Kaguya.

Meanwhile, The fact that BZ needed to catch Juudara off-guard is proof that Juudara > Black Zetsu Otsutsuki.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WinNo1929 (Monday at 7:40 PM)

MYGod000 said:


> I never denied that.
> 
> If 9 tails has Massive Ridiculous chakra then Juubi From the War has massively higher chakra than the 9 tails.
> 
> ...


Like i said, lets have a formal debate about this

Momo being impressed by the 9 tails doesn't mean its over the 10 tails, no matter the reach

Sasuke couldn't kill the Juubi at that point because 1. he wanted to investigate the Mural and 2. Jigen came into the dimension

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Tuesday at 2:43 AM)

WinNo1929 said:


> Like i said, lets have a formal debate about this
> 
> Momo being impressed by the 9 tails doesn't mean its over the 10 tails, no matter the reach


i'll reiterate again Nothing is stated adult Jigen Juubi we don't know how powerful it is he hasn't done anything I'm not even sure it able to fire Juubi Dama. If it could i see no reason why it wouldn't. 

Their is a difference between that Juubi and the Juubi in the War buddy which you are in denial about.



That Juubi hasn't even fire 1 TBB  ability every Bijuu can do.

Secondly...that Baby Ten tails is a Baby seedling...while Juubi in the War was closer to it final Form which was the Divine tree.

Lastly, We don't know how the new Juubi chakra Compares to 9 tails  nor can you even give me any evidence on where it chakra would rank. you're Just assuming because it a juubi it must be more powerful than 9 tails but you have no proof of that. We don't even know where this juubi came from. 



WinNo1929 said:


> Sasuke couldn't kill the Juubi at that point because 1. he wanted to investigate the Mural and 2. Jigen came into the dimension


Then he left the Dimension if he was so much more powerful than the Juubi (which is never stated or supposed) Sasuke would have no problem killing something that is below Kaguya and Base Momoshiki according  to you. 

i'll Accept your concession on this argument i've given you multiple reason why Jigen Juubi is fodder to the Juubi in the War that was in it final form.


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## WinNo1929 (Tuesday at 2:45 AM)

MYGod000 said:


> i'll reiterate again Nothing is stated adult Jigen Juubi we don't know how powerful it is he hasn't done anything I'm not even sure it able to fire Juubi Dama. If it could i see no reason why it wouldn't.
> 
> Their is a difference between that Juubi and the Juubi in the War buddy which you are in denial about.
> 
> ...


You can use all this if you grow a pair and formally debate me and we can reach a conclusion


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## MYGod000 (Tuesday at 3:31 AM)

WinNo1929 said:


> You can use all this if you grow a pair and formally debate me and we can reach a conclusion


First you need to actually learn to debate you seem to be confused when people ask you to bring supporting evidence you just use headcanon.

Next you need to learn what a Logical fallacy. You also still never proved Naruto and sasuke trained using flimsy Arguments like Kurama after this happened didn't call him Rusty any more as if that proved he trained.

You also still need to prove 50% Kurama>50% Hagoromo chakra.

Like I said until you address those we can't have a formal debate it would be a waste of time.

 You clearly can't prove New Juubi is more powerful than Juubi in the War or Kurama for that matter....so i'm just going to accept your concession here you have a good night kid.  maybe one day you will be good enough to challenge me but as of now your fodder.


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## WinNo1929 (Tuesday at 3:51 AM)

MYGod000 said:


> First you need to actually learn to debate you seem to be confused when people ask you to bring supporting evidence you just use headcanon.
> 
> Next you need to learn what a Logical fallacy. You also still never proved Naruto and sasuke trained using flimsy Arguments like Kurama after this happened didn't call him Rusty any more as if that proved he trained.
> 
> ...



We can discuss all this in a formal debate and more if you like

Dont be shy lol. Tell me one reason why you can't debate me

Only thing stopping you is your own fear

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MYGod000 (Tuesday at 12:43 PM)

WinNo1929 said:


> We can discuss all this in a formal debate and more if you like
> 
> Dont be shy lol. Tell me one reason why you can't debate me
> 
> Only thing stopping you is your own fear


I told you why I don't do Vs Battle Debates never have. That a Reason right their it just the Reason you don't want to hear.

why would i be Scared of Debating you? You don't even know how to debate many people have said this not just me, no one from this side really want to debate you because you are a troll.  only person who might Debate you is fuse.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Magon (Tuesday at 5:16 PM)

here ive read things insinuating

Kurama>>Juubi
Sasuke durability>Madara even though sasuke got hurt by normal kunais.
Sasuke defeating limbo not being able to hurt them.
Exaggeration of Sasuke chakra amount

lol

Reactions: Agree 2


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## WinNo1929 (Tuesday at 9:02 PM)

MYGod000 said:


> I told you why I don't do Vs Battle Debates never have. That a Reason right their it just the Reason you don't want to hear.
> 
> why would i be Scared of Debating you? You don't even know how to debate many people have said this not just me, no one from this side really want to debate you because you are a troll.  only person who might Debate you is fuse.


Why are you so scared of debating me? This is a *12 page thread in which you have actively participated in yet doing a debate is too much for you*

If i have no idea how to debate and am so wrong, then winning in a debate against me should be easy buddy. 

You talk such a big game so step up (to a relatively small scale lol) and let's have a formal debate about this and settle it

Reactions: Friendly 2


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