# Minato vs Tobirama



## Matty (Jun 15, 2015)

Area: Destroyed Konoha
Distance: 50 Meters
Knowledge: None
Restrictions: None
Mindset: Bloodlust


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## Kyu (Jun 15, 2015)

Been done countless times. Minato wins.

-Better FTG 
-Better chakra-enhanced speed (shunshin)
-Temporary Senjutsu boost


Tobirama undoubtedly has more combat experience and knowledge on jutsu, but that's not enough for him to beat guy with a superior arsenal, comparable physical stats and intelligence. 


Won't be an easy victory, but Minato's got the edge in a fight.


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## thechickensage (Jun 15, 2015)

I say Tobirama because he led combat vs all the powerful clans before the foundation of the villages, including hordes of haxxed-out uchiha, and even direct fighting with two of the most badass shinobi of all time, Madara and Izuna.  Minato had to fight sand people...and random villages.  Similar space-time jutsu, and Tobirama has edo tensei with those infinite exploding tags...can use all 5 elements.  

Tobirama is a near perfect shinobi, like Kakashi and Minato, and Minato can't count on his space-time jutsu to win out this time.  And Tobirama has many years more of experience.  I'm not sure how long Minato fought in the 3rd great shinobi war, but from what I understand, the pre-village era was more savage and had constant fighting. Both are all-around prodigies.  Both were the fastest of their time.  Both creative jutsu users, and inventive as well.  Though Tobirama came up with more and cooler jutsus, and Minato never mastered the nature transform on his secondary signature jutsu.

But it might be that out of 100 fights, 55 go to him, 45 to minato...or even the other way (55 minato, 45 tobirama)

I think this is one of the most even battles you could possibly choose.  They're both cool, logical fighters with the highest level of observational and combat skills.

BUT this bring up a good point.

are we comparing only 24 year old Minato to 24 year old Tobirama?  Because Minato was not yet in his prime...when...he got skewered.  How old was tobirama when he died?


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## Kyu (Jun 15, 2015)

> are we comparing only 24 year old Minato to* 24 year old Tobirama*?



Why would we? Izuna was 24 when Tobirama killed him & they are roughly the same age. Tobirama lived decades after said incident.

We should be using 24 y/o Minato vs Tobirama however old he was prior to the moments leading up to his death unless the op states otherwise.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 15, 2015)

Tobirama. He displayed far better reflexes against Juubito than KCM Minato did.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 15, 2015)

More versatile in space time ninjutsu and has superior shunshin. Minato outclasses tobirama in the department he was most famed for (speed). 

Minato has a better arsenal than tobirama, suiton is kind of worthless (ftg guiding thunder can redirect all suiton). Especially when toads also use suiton. Both use shadow clones, and both are sensors. While Minato still has senjutsu as his trump card. Or reaper death seal to take him out.

The misconception that Tobirama can counter FTG because he uses the same technique is a load of rubbish. Minato has improved FTG to perfection, it surpasses tobiramas own. So tobirama having the technique is meaningless. Minato can flood battlefields with ftg kunai and wipe out dozens in a flash, thats the main reason minatos ftg is superior. So in a fight between these two, minato has better versatility and manoeuvres he can use to get the better of tobirama with. Tobirama and his 1 marked kunai isnt going to cut it, and shadow clones get wiped out the same way he'd wipe ninja out on the battlefield if they stand anywhere near a kunai.


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2015)

Minato wins low-difficult. 

Just like the battle with A and Obito both of which are superior to Tobirama, did not last long

@Kyu


> comparable physical stats



What physical feets does Tobirama have are comparable to Minato's?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 15, 2015)

Gonna be the same result as always. OP didn't even bother to add a twist to the match up.

In a battle of speed the faster fighter will win and that person just happens to be minato here.

Minato can get his markings around faster, move faster than tobirama, got reflexes on par or better than tobirama and more ftg tricks. Tobirama loses high diff because he does his style pretty well but he won't win.


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## Turrin (Jun 15, 2015)

Ultimately from what's shown though Minato's Toad Summons, Fuuinjutsu, and Sennin Modo bursts, put him above Tobirama. However Tobirama has a-lot going for him that we haven't seen. According to the Data-book he had mastery over all 5 elements and Yin/Yang, something that besides those possess powers Kaguya powers is only shared with ninjutsu freaks like Orochimaru and Hiruzen. So Tobirama likely has a vasty wealthy of Ninjutsu/Genjutsu that we did not, nor ever will get to see, which makes him difficult to rank. Even more importantly we never got a clear answer to how many Tensei Tobirama can summon and how close to their original power Tobirama can bring them back at. Both bits of information are key because if it's a relatively large number of Tensei even if brought back greatly weakened as Tobirama and Hashirama were in P1, due to Tandem Explosive Tags or depending on their abilities that could pretty decisively put him above Minato.

So I honestly don't know whose stronger or who would win.


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## ThunderCunt (Jun 15, 2015)

What bothers me most is that he is a water user and one of the top water users but we never got to see one of those impressive water Jutsus that Kisame pulled.


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2015)

ThunderCunt said:


> What bothers me most is that he is a water user and one of the top water users but we never got to see one of those impressive water Jutsus that Kisame pulled.



reteconed long time ago.


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## Turrin (Jun 15, 2015)

ThunderCunt said:


> What bothers me most is that he is a water user and one of the top water users but we never got to see one of those impressive water Jutsus that Kisame pulled.



I don't think we got to see a-lot from Tobirama to be honest, because again according to the DB he's suppose to have the ability to use all elements and Yin/Yang. The problem is while A and B Rank Elemental Jutsu and Yin/Yang Techs might be effective in normal fights but the moment Juubito tanked Tandem Explosive Tags w/o any damage, it was kind of useless for Tobirama to try any kind of offense, and he was better off supporting with Hiraishin.


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2015)

I doubt that elements stuff are of a great deal. 
His main element is the Water Element, so the others are going to be naturally weaker, now add that to his
already unimpressive feats with his main element, and all that blow out of the window.


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## Ersa (Jun 15, 2015)

Minato is like a smarter, faster version of Tobirama.

While they are on the same level generally, he wins ten times out of ten if they fight. At the very least draws with Shiki Fujin, there isn't a scenario I can see where he loses.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Ultimately from what's shown though Minato's Toad Summons, Fuuinjutsu, and Sennin Modo bursts, put him above Tobirama. However Tobirama has a-lot going for him that we haven't seen. According to the Data-book he had mastery over all 5 elements and Yin/Yang, something that besides those possess powers Kaguya powers is only shared with ninjutsu freaks like Orochimaru and Hiruzen. So Tobirama likely has a vasty wealthy of Ninjutsu/Genjutsu that we did not, nor ever will get to see, which makes him difficult to rank. Even more importantly we never got a clear answer to how many Tensei Tobirama can summon and how close to their original power Tobirama can bring them back at. Both bits of information are key because if it's a relatively large number of Tensei even if brought back greatly weakened as Tobirama and Hashirama were in P1, due to Tandem Explosive Tags or depending on their abilities that could pretty decisively put him above Minato.
> 
> So I honestly don't know whose stronger or who would win.



But you can say that about many characters. Minato is in the same boat, in DB3 he was said to have the talent to invent many jutsu in his own style (where are these many jutsu). There was this barrier he was gonna use to restrain the nine tails with, we never got to see. He was taught many sealing jutsu of the uzumaki clan, we only saw a couple. He never displayed his element either (out of every hokage).

At the end of the day, doesnt matter how many jutsu you have, its how you use the, at counts. Obito could beat hiruzen using only kamui, despite hiruzen probably knowing a thousand different jutsu. Besides, tobiramas best element was water ninjutsu, meaning hisnother elements wouldnt be of the same level. Hence why he uses water ninjutsu preferably.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2015)

minato wins and will always beat obito

better putting obito against tobirama or tobirama against kakashi

of all the ST users minato sits above them.


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> minato wins and will always beat obito
> 
> better putting obito against tobirama or tobirama against kakashi
> 
> of all the ST users minato sits above them.



What does obito have to do with anything? 



Ersatz said:


> Minato is like a smarter, faster version of Tobirama.
> *
> While they are on the same level generally,* he wins ten times out of ten if they fight. At the very least draws with Shiki Fujin, there isn't a scenario I can see where he loses.



I almost wanted to rep you, had it not been for that nonsense. 

but fuck it. Rep anyway.


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## joshhookway (Jun 15, 2015)

Minato is a poor man's Tobirama without Edo Tensei. Minato may have a better FTG, but tobirama is much smarter, has way more diverse powerful abilities and isn't a one trick pony like Minato is.

Tobirama low diff


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2015)

> has way more diverse *powerful* abilities and isn't a one trick pony like Minato is.



lol, such as what?


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## thechickensage (Jun 15, 2015)

With Tobirama, you have one of the most competent Generals and tacticians in history, the training/fighting/sparring with the two most powerful shinobi in history (his brother and madara), and essentially the same jutsus as Minato (minus rasengan and some sealing jutsus probably).  Plus Edo Tensei, with its explosive tags or simply backup fighters. 

Tobirama was the fastest shinobi of his generation; Minato was the fastest of his generation.  And physically, they are probably equals (strength, etc.)

Those for Minato say "he's faster" or "better teleportation jutsu," but that just means that Tobirama has to adjust his fighting style slightly.  He knows minato's teleportation jutsus and shadow clone jutsu **because he invented them**, so he would know how to use them offensively/defensively, and he would know their strengths and weaknesses.  

This is almost exactly the Kakashi vs Minato debate, but Tobirama is much stronger than Kakashi.  So I would see this as almost a perfect 50/50, probably the closest fight in the naruto universe.  But because Minato is cooler, I say 49 Tobirama, 51 Minato

it's alright if two shinobi can mostly fight to a draw....look at kakashi vs gai.  their rivalry would have continued forever with no certain victor if Gai hadn't used the 8th gate.

And idk why people think the toads are so strong.  Any shinobi above a certain level will not lose due to fighting-type summons in a 1v1.  Plus we don't know if Tobirama has a summon...he...might...


ALSO, in the battledome, i think people should start using "out of 100" references.  Saying "Minato, Mid Diff" doesn't account for variations in combat which could lead to a loss.  It makes far more sense, and can lead to more complete arguments if you give the proportion of wins vs losses rather than just say "X will always win, no matter what"


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## Bonly (Jun 15, 2015)

This pretty much comes down to who is gonna touch who first as both can avoid/counter what the other does in the mid-long range game so whoever lands a Hiraishin on the other first is gonna get the win imo


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## Six (Jun 15, 2015)

Minato is a Tobirama wannabe, that being said he still wins. He's still the most bland of the Kage's and major side characters. He's a tobirama/naruto clone.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 15, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Minato is a Tobirama wannabe, that being said he still wins. He's still the most bland of the Kage's and major side characters. He's a tobirama/naruto clone.



How can he be a naruto clone when he was alive first. Shadow clones, rasengan, senjutsu, nine tails jinchuuriki, toad summonings... Minato was all of that/had all that before naruto.

He uses ftg, how does that make him tobiramas clone, especially when he uses it better. I didnt know characters become clones of others just because they use same techniques.


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## Six (Jun 15, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> How can he be a naruto clone when he was alive first. Shadow clones, rasengan, senjutsu, nine tails jinchuuriki, toad summonings... Minato was all of that/had all that before naruto.
> 
> He uses ftg, how does that make him tobiramas clone, especially when he uses it better. I didnt know characters become clones of others just because they use same techniques.



Im talking from a story point f view he's a Naruto imitation. We'd never seen Minato fight until part 2. He actually looked unique using space time just but Kishi ruined him. Fights the same exact way as naruto kcm,bm,sm + rasengan+ftg rinse and repeat.

And no, that was Kasha's bullshit no matter how you try and justify it.  Minato died minutes after sealing Kurama. Where'd he find the time to remove his darkness, and take hold of the fox's chakra. Not to mention, didn't he have to be cool with the of and then undo the seal to use bm? The same fox inside Minato who's last memory was probably the rage he had at half his power being sealed inside a baby. The same fox who held a huge grudge for all those years inside Naruto, his counterpart who had just been revived was suddenly cool with Minato enough to let him use his full power?

The only logical explanation is he learned how to use Kurama's chakra during Hashiramaxs talk with Sasuke or on his way over to the battlefield.

Ask yourself if any of that gelled fluidly or sounded just forced last minute nonsense.


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## thechickensage (Jun 15, 2015)

Minato should not have had sage mode or KCM instantly.  He should have given Naruto the 9-tails' other half immediately, and not used it at all for himself.  Instant access to Naruto's hardest training conquest completely cheapened it.  You can call it hype for Minato, but I think it was bad planning.  Minato was weirdly BOTH hyped and trolled (harder than any other person) by Kishi.

Well...nah, Neji was the hardest-trolled.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 15, 2015)

At 9, Minato defeated the Kumo Elite Ninja Task Force that infiltrated the Konoha and took the legendary Kyuubi from right under Prime Sarutobi's nose. 

Tobirama on the other hand was beaten to death by a similiar Kumo Elite Ninja Task Force in his prime. 


Minato >>>> 9 year old Minato >>> Kumo >> Tobirama


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## Six (Jun 15, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> At 9, Minato defeated the Kumo Elite Ninja Task Force that infiltrated the Konoha and took the legendary Kyuubi from right under Prime Sarutobi's nose.
> 
> Tobirama on the other hand was beaten to death by a similiar Kumo Elite Ninja Task Force in his prime.
> 
> ...



Christ, you're like a one trick pony, you say the same shit over and over .
"3 Kumo elite nin" "3 Kumo elite nin"

1st of all, we don't know what rank they were. They might have been the three most elite ninja in the village or they could have been chunk. WE DONT KNOW: ) Freaking Kakashi sent 2 chunin a former anbu member who was a chunin and Naruto to save a genin and stop the moon from crashing. 

I'll give you the fact that they infiltrated the village. They could have infiltrated or simply gone in under the disguise of a transformation just, again we don't know.

No they took a 12 year old girl most likely away from her home if you wanna follow the anime story. Your wording is as if her and Hiruzen had been together and they confronted and snatched her away from him.

The village is pretty big, for all we know she was at home or using the bathroom, Sarutobi is not watching every person at the  same time. But if you wanna use that logic Naruto stole the school of sealing as an academy student right from under the Hokage's nose. Yes he was old, but still good enough to take on 2 Kage level ninja at the same time. Shit, Naruto must have been super elite as an academy student to steal and get away from the Hokage and avoid all the elite leaf ninja looking out for him.

Tobirama was actually killed by named characters, not three nameless fodder for all we knew could have been chunin.

Nice use of wording I might add, to try to make shit look more impressive than t really is.
before Obito's stake could travel a few inches


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## Six (Jun 15, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Minato should not have had sage mode or KCM instantly.  He should have given Naruto the 9-tails' other half immediately, and not used it at all for himself.  Instant access to Naruto's hardest training conquest completely cheapened it.  You can call it hype for Minato, but I think it was bad planning.  Minato was weirdly BOTH hyped and trolled (harder than any other person) by Kishi.
> 
> Well...nah, Neji was the hardest-trolled.



This, Minato was arguably the most badass and coolest character at the time of his death. War completely shitted on him.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 15, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Im talking from a story point f view he's a Naruto imitation. We'd never seen Minato fight until part 2. He actually looked unique using space time just but Kishi ruined him. Fights the same exact way as naruto kcm,bm,sm + rasengan+ftg rinse and repeat.
> 
> And no, that was Kasha's bullshit no matter how you try and justify it.  Minato died minutes after sealing Kurama. Where'd he find the time to remove his darkness, and take hold of the fox's chakra. Not to mention, didn't he have to be cool with the of and then undo the seal to use bm? The same fox inside Minato who's last memory was probably the rage he had at half his power being sealed inside a baby. The same fox who held a huge grudge for all those years inside Naruto, his counterpart who had just been revived was suddenly cool with Minato enough to let him use his full power?
> 
> ...


You're just butthurt. Minato invented rasengan, so we knew that was his technique from part 1. Many ninja knew shadow clone jutsu before naruto did (tobirama, hiruzen, kakashi, itachi, jiraya, and of course minato). Minato was shown to summon toads in the very first chapter. Senjutsu was inevitable because he was jirayas student. Minato was also a confirmed sensor before naruto got that ability. Naruto is just an improved imitation of his father, in fact minato is more unique, becsuse he does everything naruto does plus he uses advanced space time ninjutsu and sealing jutsu. Kurama confirmed chakra transfer to be an ability of minato as well, which naruto later learned. So as you can see, naruto is completely unoriginal. At least minato has other techniques that naruto doesnt, and minato had 99% of them first. So your complaints are trash. Kishi didnt ruin him, your complaint should be why naruto cant come up with anything new on his own.

Stop raging at things you dont understand. First of all, those sealed within the reaper are fated to fight for all eternity, so minato and kurama could have been fighting the entire 17 years he was sealed with yin kurama. The datsbook also says the reaper death seal is what granted minato nine tails chakra mode. You forgot minato used a different seal to become a jinchuuriki, he and kuramas chakra were sealed together. However narutos seal was the 8 tetregram seal, so the ninetails was locked away within naruto, hence why minato left the key for him. Minato however had a completely different seal, kurama wasnt locked away or suppressed, he was just sealed directly into minato, giving him nine tails chakra mode.

Also since when does naruto fight with ftg. Thats minatos main technique, he uses it more than anything. So no minato doesnt fight exactly the same. Sure he uses rasengan, but since when is it a crime to use the technique you invented? Saying minato is a naruto clone becuase he fights with ftg and rasengan. Are you daft? Naruto wishes he knew ftg and rasengan js minatos invention, not narutos.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 15, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Christ, you're like a one trick pony, you say the same shit over and over .
> "3 Kumo elite nin" "3 Kumo elite nin"



When you have sufficient evidence, all you really need is one statement. 



> 1st of all, we don't know what rank they were. They might have been the three most elite ninja in the village or they could have been chunk. WE DONT KNOW: ) Freaking Kakashi sent 2 chunin a former anbu member who was a chunin and *Naruto* to save a genin and stop the moon from crashing.



Doesn't matter what rank. You kind of prove my point considering only the most powerful ninja (Naruto) are assigned to these tasks. 



> I'll give you the fact that they infiltrated the village. They could have infiltrated or simply gone in under the disguise of a transformation just, again we don't know.



Doesnt matter how they did it. The fact is they were strong/smart enough to infiltrate the Konoha. Doing something only Orochimaru/Pain has done thus far. 



> No they took a 12 year old girl most likely away from her home if you wanna follow the anime story. Your wording is as if her and Hiruzen had been together and they confronted and snatched her away from him.



I dont follow anime. Moot point.



> The village is pretty big, for all we know she was at home or using the bathroom, Sarutobi is not watching every person at the  same time. But if you wanna use that logic Naruto stole the school of sealing as an academy student right from under the Hokage's nose. Yes he was old, but still good enough to take on 2 Kage level ninja at the same time. Shit, Naruto must have been super elite as an academy student to steal and get away from the Hokage and avoid all the elite leaf ninja looking out for him.



Wasnt Naruto almost killed off by a Chuunin though (if not for Iruka). Naruto wasn't about to get away with shit . Moreover, Hiruzen knew exactly were Naruto was through his crystal ball shit

On the other hand, no one could find Kushina but Minato. 



> Tobirama was actually killed by named characters, not three nameless fodder for all we knew could have been chunin.



Chuunin don't infiltrate the greatest village and get away with it without a trace. Tobirama was killed off by a bunch of ninja that Ten Ten beat 



> Nice use of wording I might add, to try to make shit look more impressive than t really is.
> before Obito's stake could travel a few inches



Glad we both notice Minato saving Kushina; something Prime Sarutobi couldn't do.


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## Six (Jun 15, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> You're just butthurt. Minato invented rasengan, so we knew that was his technique from part 1. Many ninja knew shadow clone jutsu before naruto did (tobirama, hiruzen, kakashi, itachi, jiraya, and of course minato). Minato was shown to summon toads in the very first chapter. Senjutsu was inevitable because he was jirayas student. Minato was also a confirmed sensor before naruto got that ability. Naruto is just an improved imitation of his father, in fact minato is more unique, becsuse he does everything naruto does plus he uses advanced space time ninjutsu and sealing jutsu. Kurama confirmed chakra transfer to be an ability of minato as well, which naruto later learned. So as you can see, naruto is completely unoriginal. At least minato has other techniques that naruto doesnt, and minato had 99% of them first. So your complaints are trash. Kishi didnt ruin him, your complaint should be why naruto cant come up with anything new on his own.
> 
> Stop raging at things you dont understand. First of all, those sealed within the reaper are fated to fight for all eternity, so minato and kurama were fighting the entire 17 years he was sealed with yin kurama. The datsbook also says the reaper death seal is what granted minato nine tails chakra mode. You forgot minato used a different seal to become a jinchuuriki, he and kuramas chakra were sealed together. However narutos seal was the 8 tetregram seal, so the ninetails was locked away within naruto, hence why minato left the key for him. Minato however had a completely different seal, kurama wasnt locked away or suppressed, he was just sealed directly into minato, giving him nine tails chakra mode.


Im not butthurt, I like Minato, well I guess you could say I'm butthurt about how he was treated.

He was actually pretty unique up until his death, definitely had the best fighting style bar Itachi of anyone in this manga.

It was probably Kasha's fault for making him and Tobirama so similar. The latter should have been a space time and water master.

The senjutsu was pretty obvious, even I used to say he had sage mode before it was revealed.

I guess you're right on Naruto being an improved version, though there was absolutely no need for him to use tailed beast mode at all.

It's not that I don't understand, it's that a lot of stuff doesn't make sense. Don't go to the databook as your 100% piece of proof. The databook said that kamui is a just any sharing user can use. Or that Haku's crystal ice mirrors had light speed yet 1 comma sasuke could see them. From what we're shown even Kurama and Naruto were surprised he could use Kurama's powers mere minutes after he died and was revived. Also could you link me to where Minato said he used a different seal on hisself, I'm not denying what you said, I just don't remember it.

None of that takes away from the fact that MInato during the war was extremely unspectacular. There were a few cheap surprises, confirmation of sage mode was nice, apart from reacting to 8 gate Guy Minato was as impressive as Muu. Hell Muu imo looked a lot better during the war.

Dude got trolled from left to right and couldn't even hug his own son in the end. Just compare his final moments to Itachi's and you'll see what I'm talking about.


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## Six (Jun 15, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> When you have sufficient evidence, all you really need is one statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What sufficient evidence do you have?

Don't try to justify your nonsense, they're fodder. There is nothing special about fodder, maybe if they were revived during the war and singled out, but they weren't . Your whole basis on this argument is that he took out 3 fodder ninja.



That chunin I think always knew where Naruto was. Yet all the join ajnd chunin couldn't find him. I guess academy exam failure Naruto>>Leaf ninja since he was smart enough to get away from them.

I guess you're excluding the fact that tenten beat them with legendary weapons right? At least those ninja were named. Again, Minato beat fodder. Doesn't matter how many pretty words you put around them, they're fodder. 

Yes of course, because it's the homage's duty to go out and take care of the work his shinobi aren't able to right? Did you see Hiruzen actively going for Naruto despite knowing where he was?


Just keep on hyping fodder, don't forget to mention that one fodder he first used ftg on, i'm sure whatever village he was from he was next in line to be Kage


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 15, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Im not butthurt, I like Minato, well I guess you could say I'm butthurt about how he was treated.
> 
> He was actually pretty unique up until his death, definitely had the best fighting style bar Itachi of anyone in this manga.
> 
> ...


Only similarity between minato and tobirama is ftg, which minato improved to perfection and uses more skilfully, he's a better space time ninjutsu user, his space time barrier is evidence of that - something tobirama cannot do. And minato displayed it first, meanwhile tobirama didnt have it the first time kishi revived tobirama, so if anything tobirama is the clone. He wasnt implied to possess the jutsu, even edo tensei wasnt implied to be his.

All the hokages got trolled. Difference is minato lasted the longest and did the most work. Feat wise, no hokage did more than minato. Without him, the entire alliance would have died twice, without him, Gai would not have been able to hit madara, without minato, naruto and sasuke would have died. He did a lot, and only thing i hated was kishi taking his arms away. That was unecessary and one of the worst pieces of writing I've ever seen in naruto, it was uncalled for and a cheap way of handicapping minato in battle. The fact that he did not regenerate was absolute nonsense. However i dont know how you can say minato looked unspectacular, he took the most crap of course, but he provided the most support, i think you're just having trouble seeing past the bad and forgetting minatos major contributions. No edo tensei has feats thats even come close to minato, closest is itachi and he is still way inferior.

The databook has a lot of hyperboles, however it clarifies many things and does make a lot of sense most times. Not everything is accurate, but in this case it tells us simple fact:
Using ?Shiki Fuujin?, *his own chakra had been sealed together with the Kyuubi?s* half body in reconcilliation (compromise).
Gaining the impressive ?Kyuubi Chakra Mode?!!
This is why he can use kcm. Minato became a nine tails jin because of the Shiki Fuin. However Narutos seal is the Hakke Fuin. Minato locked away the ninetails inside naruto, thats why naruto has a key. Shiki fuin is a powerful S rank seal, so even though minato had to die, both his and kuramas chakra were sealed together. It makes sense why minato has kcm after being resurrected. Even if he wasnt friends with kurama, he still had his chakra sealed togehter with kurama.

Minato is still unique, no one uses FTG like he does. And no one is as skilled in sealing jutsu (feat wise) as he. He got nerfed in the war, thats a fact, but still contributed a whole lot. So cant complain too much, his opponents were beyond ordinary after all.


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## Six (Jun 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Only similarity between minato and tobirama is ftg, which minato improved to perfection and uses more skilfully, he's a better space time ninjutsu user, his space time barrier is evidence of that - something tobirama cannot do. And minato displayed it first, meanwhile tobirama didnt have it the first time kishi revived tobirama, so if anything tobirama is the clone. He wasnt implied to possess the jutsu, even edo tensei wasnt implied to be his.
> 
> All the hokages got trolled. Difference is minato lasted the longest and did the most work. Feat wise, no hokage did more than minato. Without him, the entire alliance would have died twice, without him, Gai would not have been able to hit madara, without minato, naruto and sasuke would have died. He did a lot, and only thing i hated was kishi taking his arms away. That was unecessary and one of the worst pieces of writing I've ever seen in naruto, it was uncalled for and a cheap way of handicapping minato in battle. The fact that he did not regenerate was absolute nonsense. However i dont know how you can say minato looked unspectacular, he took the most crap of course, but he provided the most support, i think you're just having trouble seeing past the bad and forgetting minatos major contributions. No edo tensei has feats thats even come close to minato, closest is itachi and he is still way inferior.
> 
> ...



Yeah I guess you're right, still though I would have preferred just sage mode and using cool space time techniques like the barrier. I found his using the chakra mode to really take points away from him. 
I always assumed he was the type who was beyond powerups. Like Itachi in the way that those around them can keep powering up, but they could stay ahead due to their sheer skill and intelligence. Sage mode was just fine, I just couldn't get over the chakra mode.

Yeah he was pretty nerfed considering he had his mark still on Obito and could have done more than just a slash. He didn't even get to use that one jutsu he kept on mentioning for how many chapters.


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## thechickensage (Jun 16, 2015)

It would have been a lot cooler if minato, when he arrived at the battlefield, had closed his eyes and told the other  kages "im sorry but could you wait one moment? Just a moment"

And then in a few seconds, his kcm cloak lit up

Rather than just having it, you see him won it in a few seconds.  All casual, like it was no big deal


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## Valhorus (Jun 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't think we got to see a-lot from Tobirama to be honest, because again according to the DB he's suppose to have the ability to use all elements and Yin/Yang. The problem is while A and B Rank Elemental Jutsu and Yin/Yang Techs might be effective in normal fights but the moment Juubito tanked Tandem Explosive Tags w/o any damage, it was kind of useless for Tobirama to try any kind of offense, and he was better off supporting with Hiraishin.



Not sure if you are serious . Minato also got control over yin and yang , got 3 elements , that is also enough hype to put him above Tobirama , with his faster shunshin , better FTG , and SM bursts + summons , his edo tensei is weaker than Orochimaru in Part 1 , and hsall i reming you the old Hiruzen guy defeated Hashirama and Tobirama as edos ? So unless Tobirama brings up Kaguya and Hagoromo as ET , his finger will not Touch Minato , explosive tags are useless , he needs to trap the target first , just like Hashirama did to Obito . Genjutsu ? Where is this stuff coming from ? Nowhere in the databook is stating something about Genjutsu , if you think yin/yang means genjutsu , then the same goes for Minato , Stop hyping Tobirama without giving Minato's hype .


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## thechickensage (Jun 16, 2015)

Valhorus said:


> Not sure if you are serious . Minato also got control over yin and yang , got 3 elements , that is also enough hype to put him above Tobirama , with his faster shunshin , better FTG , and SM bursts + summons , his edo tensei is weaker than Orochimaru in Part 1 , and hsall i reming you the old Hiruzen guy defeated Hashirama and Tobirama as edos ? So unless Tobirama brings up Kaguya and Hagoromo as ET , his finger will not Touch Minato , explosive tags are useless , he needs to trap the target first , just like Hashirama did to Obito . Genjutsu ? Where is this stuff coming from ? Nowhere in the databook is stating something about Genjutsu , if you think yin/yang means genjutsu , then the same goes for Minato , Stop hyping Tobirama without giving Minato's hype .



afaik, tobirama's edo tensei was more a mass-corpse revival sort of thing, using them as kamikazes and fodder more than fellow warriors.  like zetsus suicide bombers.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 16, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Yeah I guess you're right, still though I would have preferred just sage mode and using cool space time techniques like the barrier. I found his using the chakra mode to really take points away from him.
> I always assumed he was the type who was beyond powerups. Like Itachi in the way that those around them can keep powering up, but they could stay ahead due to their sheer skill and intelligence. Sage mode was just fine, I just couldn't get over the chakra mode.
> 
> Yeah he was pretty nerfed considering he had his mark still on Obito and could have done more than just a slash. He didn't even get to use that one jutsu he kept on mentioning for how many chapters.



I didnt mind minato having kcm. What i didnt like is that he didnt get anything out of it, Minatos physical stats were no improved at all. His speed was exactly the same, he didnt appear stronger. He literally did everything that he could already do in base. So i was disappointed, kishi should have given him new techniques (remember my username that kishi jever showed, whats up with hat ).

Only time minato actually used the ninetails chakra properly is when he went bijuu mode. Apart from that, its like kishi just wanted minato to glow, becuase it did nothing for him. Wothout plot restrictions, despite minato losing an arm, he should have been able to grow a new chakra arm using the ninetails chakra. Thats shat every logical person expected.

Dont even get me started on the marking disappearing, biggest horse s*** ever.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> But you can say that about many characters. Minato is in the same boat, in DB3 he was said to have the talent to invent many jutsu in his own style (where are these many jutsu). There was this barrier he was gonna use to restrain the nine tails with, we never got to see. He was taught many sealing jutsu of the uzumaki clan, we only saw a couple. He never displayed his element either (out of every hokage).


Minato has more Jutsu, but the difference is Minato also had more time to show what he's capable off, while Tobirama did not. So I put less stock into Minato's unknown Jutsu, than I do Tobirama's. Likewise Minato's unknown Jutsu are not a known quantity, so I can't evaluate how useful they may be, but I can at least have a vague sense of how useful Tobirama's 5 elements, Tobirama's Soul Kinjutsu and Edo-Tensei is, as I know these are both very useful skills to have, I just don't know quite how useful as I don't know quite how skilled Tobirama is.



Valhorus said:


> Not sure if you are serious . Minato also got control over yin and yang , got 3 elements , that is also enough hype to put him above Tobirama  .


Tobirama has 5 elements and Yin/Yang, so he is above Minato in that regard.



> his edo tensei is weaker than Orochimaru in Part 1


Orochimaru surpassed Tobirama in Part II w/ Edo-Tensei not before. That's why Tobirama only notes in PII when resurrected that Orochimaru increased the efficiency of the technique, enabling him to bring the Hokage back at near full power.



> and hsall i reming you the old Hiruzen guy defeated Hashirama and Tobirama as edos ?


And Old-Hiruzen had to give his life and use Minato's strongest Technique to do so. And nether of those Tensei had Tandem Explosive Tags in their chest and we don't know if Tobirama is limited to summoning only two tensei.



> explosive tags are useless , he needs to trap the target first , just like Hashirama did to Obito


No he doesn't, he just needed to trap Juuubito, because Juubito actually had the speed to escape it's range. Most people aren't cracked out on Juubi chakra tho.



> Genjutsu ? Where is this stuff coming from ? Nowhere in the databook is stating something about Genjutsu , if you think yin/yang means genjutsu , then the same goes for Minato ,


I meant to say Ninjutsu and/or Genjutsu. Tobirama's Yin-Release could be Genjutsu related or it could be one of the Yin style Ninjutsu we've seen.



> , Stop hyping Tobirama without giving Minato's hype .


You act as if saying Minato's feats are better is not hyping him. Chill out.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

> Orochimaru surpassed Tobirama in Part II w/ Edo-Tensei not before



If you mean in the ET itself, then no, Oro surpassed him since part 1. Both Oro and Kabuto stated that. 
When Kabuto said Oro perfected it, he couldn't have possibly meant that Oro from the future. 



> No he doesn't, he just needed to trap Juuubito, because Juubito actually had the speed to escape it's range. Most people aren't cracked out on Juubi chakra tho.



Even Hiruzen's speed is more than enough. 
that's point of timing IS important.



> 互乗起爆札 gojou kibakufuda (Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags)
> Ninjutsu
> A-rank; Offensive; Close-range
> User: Senju Tobirama
> ...


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## Hachibi (Jun 16, 2015)

Match has been done so many time I don't know why it isn't banned with the Itachi vs Minato.

Alive Minato will always be slighty superior to Tobirama, tho he will need high-diff for it.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

If they banned those matches, then the section will die probably. 

It's nice more people know that Minato > Tobirama. It would be nice if they learned the different tho
than the "slightly" nonsense they say. 

&

btw, long time no see. Hope you're doing fine.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> If you mean in the ET itself, then no, Oro surpassed him since part 1. Both Oro and Kabuto stated that.
> When Kabuto said Oro perfected it, he couldn't have possibly meant that Oro from the future.


Are you implying Orochimaru got better at Edo-Tensei in route to Konoha after being released from Anko lol.



> Even Hiruzen's speed is more than enough.
> that's point of timing IS important.[


Lay of the pot Hussain. Hiruzen is not evading Tandem Explosive Tags. 

As for your desperate troll attempt with the DB, timing is important in using every Jutsu. So there is no point to even brining that up. Most characters not escaping the explosion. In-fact it's so difficult to avoid that even the caster gets caught up in the attack most of the time.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

1- You do know that Oro got all of Kabuto's knowledge, right? 

2-


> Lay of pot Hussain. Hiruzen is not evading Tandem Explosive Tags.


before Obito's stake could travel a few inches
before Obito's stake could travel a few inches


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- You do know that Oro got all of Kabuto's knowledge, right?


First off where is that stated? Secondly that doesn't increase his skill magically with Edo-Tensei.



> before Obito's stake could travel a few inches
> before Obito's stake could travel a few inches


Cool thanks for showing me a couple of irrelevant pages. Hiruzen ran from the area before Tobirama even began using the technique


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

1- before Obito's stake could travel a few inches
If Oro learned whatever Kabuto knew to how to improve the ET, then doing it would be enough. Regardless,
it does not really matter as we already know that even before this happened, Oro was already superior to Tobirama. 
before Obito's stake could travel a few inches
So, unless you think Kabuto knows what WILL happen, then he obviously was talking about Oro from the past. Even Oro said he developed the jutsu to Tsunade in part 1. 

2- 
and Tobirama's opponent will wait for weakened ET fodders to do all their shit, right? 
The point of the links is, Hiruzen was fat enough to get out of the range in a short time. Same shit will happen
if the opponents are going to face weak ass ET fodders. That's why trying to stop them from being able to move is more granted, otherwise it's not that hard to avoid the jutsu. It really is that simple.


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## Esket (Jun 16, 2015)

Tobirama's got more skill than Minato and a larger arsenal of attacks. He wins.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

Lol, obviously Minato is the one who is more skilled that Tobirama. As such taking Tobirama's jutsu to another levels that Tobirama could never reach. 



> larger arsenal of attacks



This is fan-fiction. 
what are his larger arsenal if I may ask? 

tho I wonder from where Tobirama's fans come with this nonsense, as it's not the first time
I see that "lol Tobirama has larger arsenal" when he does not even have half the size of Minato's arsenal. 

Minato


> Chakra Transfer Technique
> Contract Seal
> Dead Demon Consuming Seal
> Eight Trigrams Sealing Style
> ...



Tobirama



> Flying Thunder God Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique
> Flying Thunder God Slash
> Flying Thunder God Technique
> Four Red Yang Formation
> ...



So much for a larger one.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 16, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> What sufficient evidence do you have?



I have them leaving the legendary Konoha village with the Kyuubi in their hands. Moreover, I have Minato saving Kushina. 



> Don't try to justify your nonsense, they're fodder. There is nothing special about fodder, maybe if they were revived during the war and singled out, but they weren't . Your whole basis on this argument is that he took out 3 fodder ninja.



Call them what you want, but they are the only ninja bar Pain/Orochimaru to have invaded the Konoha, guarded by the legendary Prime Hiruzen. 



> That chunin I think always knew where Naruto was. Yet all the *join ajnd chunin* couldn't find him. I guess academy exam failure Naruto>>Leaf ninja since he was smart enough to get away from them



Spell check please. Moreover, Iruka and that Chuunin found him. They never knew his exact location. Therefore, Konoha chuunin > Naruto (which makes sense).



> I guess you're excluding the fact that tenten beat them with legendary weapons right? At least those ninja were named. Again, Minato beat fodder. Doesn't matter how many pretty words you put around them, they're fodder.



I don't care what Ten Ten had. Give Ten Ten any weapon and shes not beating Itachi/Minato or anyone else worth a shit. Call them what you want, but these fodder > Tobirama. 



> Yes of course, because it's the homage's duty to go out and take care of the work his shinobi aren't able to right? Did you see Hiruzen actively going for Naruto despite knowing where he was?



There is a difference. Hiruzen knew where Naruto was. NO ONE knew where Kushina was, including Prime Hiruzen who is stronger than Tobirama. 



> Just keep on hyping fodder, don't forget to mention that one fodder he first used ftg on, i'm sure whatever village he was from he was next in line to be Kage



He was from the Rock Village. They issued a flee on sight against Minato. Both the Kumo and Rock village had flee on sight order to be exact. Moreover, Minato is the only ninja in existence to ever have that order. 

In addition, the 4th Raikage commented that Minato was the ninja who single handedly stopped the Kyuubi extraction. Even the legendary 4th Raikage was impressed with this.



Hussain said:


> Lol, obviously Minato is the one who is more skilled that Tobirama. As such taking Tobirama's jutsu to another levels that Tobirama could never reach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Repped. Never seen someone smack the competition so hard, and im not even a Minato fan.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- Link removed
> If Oro learned whatever Kabuto knew to how to improve the ET, then doing it would be enough. Regardless,


Getting information doesn't magically make someone able to instantly use a technique vastly better than before. 



> it does not really matter as we already know that even before this happened, Oro was already superior to Tobirama.
> Link removed
> So, unless you think Kabuto knows what WILL happen, then he obviously was talking about Oro from the past. Even Oro said he developed the jutsu to Tsunade in part 1.


Or Orochimaru improved Edo-Tensei over the time-skip



> and Tobirama's opponent will wait for weakened ET fodders to do all their shit, right?


Assuming the enemy has knowledge of Tandem Explosive Tags, which only Hashirama and Hiruzen showed knowledge of. Tobirama has plenty of ways to get his Tensei in position. And the amount as well as quality of the Tensei matter drastically.



> The point of the links is, Hiruzen was fat enough to get out of the range in a short time. Same shit will happen


He was not fast enough, he started running away before the Jutsu was even used.

Honestly your downplay of Tobirama is like one of the most hypocritical BS I've ever seen on the forums Hussain. You wank off to Minato and than in the same breath treat someone with very similar abilities like dirt.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

This page is before the time skip, Turrin. 
Link removed
Link removed

Also, if you believe knowledge wouldn't make him be better, then how do you perhaps think he got better
without the ability to use the jutsu because of the S.F exactly? 

I'll see your response to this first because we have to get pass this point for us to  properly debate about his shitty ET.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Repped. Never seen someone smack the competition so hard, and im not even a Minato fan.



Repped back. 

The hilarious part is Tobirama's jutsu are all  watered down versions of those who came after him. He just gets the undeserved benefit of a superior users. 

And not to mention all the fan-fiction and false hype. Some people still believe he is the best water style user.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> This page is before the time skip, Turrin.
> 2
> 2


Okay and, I fail to see your point.



> Also, if you believe knowledge wouldn't make him be better, then how do you perhaps think he got better
> without the ability to use the jutsu because of the S.F exactly?


When he body transferred he got new arms to use, it wasn't until his body started rejecting him that he once again felt the effects of Shiki Fuujin.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

1- the point is he developed the jutsu obviously and improved upon it.  
I honestly not sure why are we even debating the obvious. 

2- Obviously not. 
He lost his jutsu that required hand-seals even since they got sealed. Even since that day he was NEVER
shown to be able to preform the hand-seals. All of the jutsu he showed were without those hand seals. 

That's the whole point of Kishi showing his arm's sould return to him and saying that NOW he can use the ET.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 16, 2015)

This myth that tobirama has a larger arsenal an minato lol. Its almost as bad as when people used to claim that tobirama was hailed as the greatest water ninjutsu user of all time.

I agree, this match up should be banned. Minatos ftg cancels out tobiramas inferior ftg. Minato outpaces tobirama in speed. Tobiramas edo tensei are featless and inferior to part 1 orochimarus version, making tobiramas edo tensei fodder. Not to mention tobiramas special move with edo tensei is a suicide technique. Not even mentioned minatos contract seal being making them irrelevant. Both use shadow clones, both are sensors.

So whats left for tobirama... Suiton lol.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 16, 2015)

Minato doesn't have the required reflexes to even land a blow on Tobirama.

 Well, unless Young Bee is more reflexive than Tobirama.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

Do you mean how Kin and Gin are more reflexive that Minato? 

If you have a brain, and can comprehend what you read, then Tobirama already admitted his inferiority
in the speed departments.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 16, 2015)

Why do trolls like this even exist


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## Kyu (Jun 16, 2015)

People still think Tobirama's clone > Kyuubified Minato in speed.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

his clone is even faster than him since it got their first.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Why do trolls like this even exist



 I know, I don't know why Hussain keeps trolling.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- the point is he developed the jutsu obviously and improved upon it.
> I honestly not sure why are we even debating the obvious.


He did not develop the Jutsu, Tobirama did. He improved it, but you are saying he improved it in P1, there is no proof of such a claim.



> He lost his jutsu that required hand-seals even since they got sealed.


Hussain you made that up. Shiki Fuujin ripped out Orochimaru's arms, which is why he could not cast Jutsu or move his arms in general. Than he transferred bodies and could once again use his arms until his body started rejecting him and that's when he began to weaken again.



> That's the whole point of Kishi showing his arm's sould return to him and saying that NOW he can use the ET.


Orochimaru needed his soul back because he didn't have a suitable host body

---------

But fuck let's assume you right and Orochimaru could never use Edo-Tensei after having his arms ripped out. He still could have increased his ability with Edo-Tensei by training or increasing areas related to what effects the strength of Edo-Tensei, w/o casting the Jutsu. Orochimaru increasing the strength and quantity of his chakra to bring tensei back stronger, is an actually realistic way he could have gotten better at Edo-Tensei, while him just absorbing Kabuto's information isn't going to magically make him better. 



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> This myth that tobirama has a larger arsenal an minato lol. Its almost as bad as when people used to claim that tobirama was hailed as the greatest water ninjutsu user of all time.


Tobirama could have a bigger arsenal than Minato. Tobirama has lived longer than Minato and therefore has had more time to masters a variety of techniques. Tobirama being able to use more elements than Minato also reflects well on the chances that his arsenal is more vast than Minato's. Additionally Tobirama has had much less panel time than Minato, yet has shown only three less techniques than Minato, which also shows Tobirama tends to use more varied fighting style.



*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Chakra Transfer Technique
2. Combined Summoning Technique (Manga only)
3. Contract Seal
4. Dead Demon Consuming Seal
5. Eight Trigrams Sealing Style
6. Flying Thunder God Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique
7. Flying Thunder God Technique
8. Flying Thunder God — Second Step
9. Flying Thunder God: Guiding Thunder
10. Four Red Yang Formation
11. Four Symbols Seal
12. Rasengan
13. Sage Mode
14. Sensing Technique
15. Shadow Clone Technique
16. Spiralling Flash Super Round Dance Howl Style Three
17. Summoning Technique 
18. Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique
19. ? Barrier Technique

vs

1. Combined Summoning Technique (Manga only)
2. Flying Thunder God Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique
3. Flying Thunder God Slash
4. Flying Thunder God Technique
5. Four Red Yang Formation
6. Heavenly Weeping
7. Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags
8. Sensing Technique
9. Shadow Clone Technique
10. Summoning Technique
11. Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation
12. Water Release: Water Bullet Technique
13. Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
14.Water Release: Water Formation Wall
15. Water Release: Water Severing Wave
16. ? Soul Kinjutsu




Bottom line is we don't know whose arsenal is bigger, but it's certainly plausible Tobirama has a biger arsenal.



> Minatos ftg cancels out tobiramas inferior ftg. Minato outpaces tobirama in speed.


Come on, everyone knows the difference here is relatively insignificant against almost every enemy they'd face and if a match between Tobirama and Minato came down to just FTG and Speed w/o other Jutsu we'd be looking at one long ass battle with probably the winner being decided by stamina rather than anything else. That's not to say Minato isn't better, but it's just not very significant in a manga where someone like Hidan can hang with Kakashi, despite their being a much large gap in speed between those two than Tobirama and Minato.



> Tobiramas edo tensei are featless and inferior to part 1 orochimarus version


His Tensei being inferior to P1-Orochimaru is totally baseless. Fact is we don't know how good they are and anyone suggesting otherwise is simply playing favorites.



> Not to mention tobiramas special move with edo tensei is a suicide technique


Why is a technique that takes full advantage of Edo-Perks a bad thing? 



> ot even mentioned minatos contract seal being making them irrelevant.


I don't see why people should evaluate whose stronger based solely on who would win between Minato and Tobirama. 

But with that aside Minato would need to touch Tobirama to land contract seal and that's going to be extremely difficult to do against a Sensor, FTG, and KB user. 



> Both use shadow clones, both are sensors


Tobirama does have better feats with both though.



> So whats left for tobirama... Suiton lol.


It pretty much comes down to the fact that Kishi didn't make Tobirama's strength clear as he did not define how powerful Tobirama's Edo-Tensei is or what his weird soul based Kinjutsu is. And until that is clarified we'll never known who is stronger for sure.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 16, 2015)

Lol @ people claiming Tobirama has a bigger arsenal, but then when there is actual proof he doesnt they start making up what if scenarios


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Lol @ people claiming Tobirama has a bigger arsenal, but then when there is actual proof he doesnt they start making up what if scenarios


If Minato having shown three more techniques than Tobirama after enjoying three times the panel time of Tobirama is this "proof" your referring to that's really not proof of anything at all. The amount of Jutsu Hiruzen has shown has been relatively small, but we know Hiruzen has mastered more Jutsu than perhaps anyone else in the series.


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## Lance (Jun 16, 2015)

Sooooo.....original bamflash vs the wanna be who suddenly had all of Minato's jutsus in the fourth war?


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> If Minato having shown three more techniques than Tobirama after enjoying three times the panel time of Tobirama is this "proof" your referring to that's really not proof of anything at all. The amount of Jutsu Hiruzen has shown has been relatively small, but we know Hiruzen has mastered more Jutsu than perhaps anyone else in the series.



by 3 times, do you mean the off-panel fights? 
Or do you mean the fact that he went through the War with 1 hand only missing all of his other
Jutsu?

or are the panels without fighting or anything included?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 16, 2015)

tobiramas reflexes are indeed superior to minatos by a significant amount. minatos usage of flying raijin is indeed superior to tobiramas. 

tobirama tagged ten tails obito multiple times with explosive tags and then marked him with his seal before he lost half his body while minato couldnt even react to obito before his arm got chopped off.

tobirama would probably win.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> He did not develop the Jutsu, Tobirama did. He improved it, but you are saying he improved it in P1, there is no proof of such a claim.
> 
> 
> Hussain you made that up. Shiki Fuujin ripped out Orochimaru's arms, which is why he could not cast Jutsu or move his arms in general. Than he transferred bodies and could once again use his arms until his body started rejecting him and that's when he began to weaken again.
> ...



1- Which is why I took his word as improving it. Kabuto saying Oro perfected it support that claim as well. 

2- I think they have to disagree. 
3


3
"If I can recover my arm, I'll be able to use the ET"
not
"fuck my arms, I can use the ET anyway" 



> tobiramas reflexes are indeed superior to minatos by a significant amount



utter bullshit. 



> tobirama tagged ten tails obito multiple times with explosive tags and then marked him with his seal before he lost half his body while minato couldn't even react to obito before his arm got chopped off.



Besides the fact that Tobirama's fanboys are always blind to the fact that Tobirama faced a significantly weaker Obito, which is as dumb as comparing
KCM Narudo to BM Narudo. And the fact that the explosion tags come from Tobirama's body

they keep ignoring that Minato was fast enough to react to 8th Gate Gai in 5th step.

Tobirama couldn't even dodge Juubi-less Madara, which proves that the whole "he tagged obito" is a hours's shit. lol
he got destroyed and the tags got stuck to Obito. Same with Torun's bugs with obito's arm.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> by 3 times, do you mean the off-panel fights?
> Or do you mean the fact that he went through the War with 1 hand only missing all of his other
> Jutsu?


This is where I draw the line, if you can't even acknowledge that Minato has had much more panel time than Tobirama, which is a downright fact, your living in your own reality and not worth my time.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

Pffff,hold your breath, will ya? 

there is a different between getting a panel time, and having that full panel time to show off ones ability. Sorry, Turrin but if you don't see the different you need some serious help. 

Let's get to the examples, shall we? 

K11. They have been their ever since the CE in part 1, right? 
Kishi puts them in the search for itachi, when they went to try and find Sasuke (and Sakura made them fall sleep)
and so on and so forth. This IS panels time. However, have Kishi gave them new feats or some shit in this time? No. They were left behind. 

Same with Sakura whom Kishi only keeps aside for the healing instead of fighting most of the time and you know that. 

So, talking about panel time only without taking in consideration what that panel time is used for is utter bullshit on your part my dear. 

Now, let's get to Minato and all that crap.

1- Kid Minato Vs Kushina's kidnappers? ~> Never shown = no feats. 
2- Minato Vs who attacked Kakashi after the cave in?  Never shown = no feats. 
3- Minato Vs the 50 Iwa Shinobi?  Never shown = no feats. 
4- Minato Vs 1000 Iwa Shinobi?  Never shown = no feats. 
5- Minato Vs Black Zetsu?  Never shown = no feats. 

I am not denying here that Minato has more panel time than Tobirama. What I am saying is most of the guys battle
is off-panled or EXTREMELY short. When Kishi gave a chance in the war, he made him lose his arm right away. On the other hand he gave Tobirama and Hiruzen the plot shield and they did not get killed. 


Hell, most of the time Minato is shown, is just to make a point about his FTG, and then people gave all of those feats to Tobirama automatically. So bitching about that is nonsensical when Tobirama is the one who ended up getting the benefit of Minato's superior usage.  

Why do you think Tobirama Vs Obito, A, or others gets to Tobirama's favour except from Minato's feats? 

and again, my point is not about who gets more panel time. So, try to focus on the main point because you seem to always ignore it, Turrin.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> utter bullshit.


its true according to feats. even minato wanked tobiramas reaction speed iirc.




> Besides the fact that Tobirama's fanboys are always blind to the fact that Tobirama faced a significantly weaker Obito, which is as dumb as comparing
> KCM Narudo to BM Narudo.


ten tails obito before he gained control isnt implied to have physical parameters inferior to himself after he gained control.
the only thing that changed is him gaining a full set of truthseekers and the ability to use six paths/juubi techniques due to him being in control. 



> they keep ignoring that Minato was fast enough to react to 8th Gate Gai in 5th step.


this doesnt disprove tobirama having better reflexes than minato.


> Tobirama couldn't even dodge Juubi-less Madara, which proves that the whole "he tagged obito" is a hours's shit. lol


tobirama can and did dodge madara.

madara was stronger however, so tobirama lost.



> he got destroyed and the tags got stuck to Obito. Same with Torun's bugs with obito's arm.


the tags that tobirama stuck to obito arent implied to have came from tobiramas body.

this means that before obito could destroy him, tobirama tagged him 4 times. the first 3 were to lay explosive tags on him and the 4th time was to lay a hiraishin seal on him.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

@Hussain

You've become worst than Itachi fans. I just want you ton know that.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

> =Shinobi no Kami;53808347]its true according to feats. even minato wanked tobiramas reaction speed iirc.



Not really when Tobirama admitted his inferiority to him already. 
Also, Minato said he works fast or something...


> ten tails obito before he gained control isnt implied to have physical parameters inferior to himself after he gained control.
> the only thing that changed is him gaining a full set of truthseekers and the ability to use six paths/juubi techniques due to him being in control.


Lol, no. Just like how KCM Naruto became much faster when he gained BM. You can't say that his only different is appearance. Obito's power was effected greatly and that shown by the fact that he gained like 5 times the amount of Gedu-Damas he had. 

So much so, that Tobirama's clone with FTG, when he tried to return his Gedu-dama to him failed, to which Tobirama stated "he is fast" and that they can't get him by just throwing attacks at him. 


> this doesnt disprove tobirama having better reflexes than minato.


Yes it does. Because 8th Gate Gai in 5th step is MUCH faster than mind-less obito. 



> tobirama can and did dodge madara.
> 
> madara was stronger however, so tobirama lost.



Why did he not tagged Madara? Surely you don't think madara is faster than obito, do you? 
Especially when Tobirama couldn't even touch him. 


> the tags that tobirama stuck to obito arent implied to have came from tobiramas body.


Yes they are. We have seen him clearly pulling them out of his body. 



> this means that before obito could destroy him, tobirama tagged him 4 times. the first 3 were to lay explosive tags on him and the 4th time was to lay a hiraishin seal on him.


read above. 




Turrin said:


> @Hussain
> 
> You've become worst than Itachi fans. I just want you ton know that.





whatever man. You couldn't even bring up an argument for your misunderstanding and that is how you come to at the end.

Well, whatever, if you think having panel time no matter what they are used for = having more feats. 
Then good for you. I am done with explaining the *obvious* to you.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> whatever man. You couldn't even bring up an argument for your misunderstanding and that is how you come to at the end.
> 
> Well, whatever, if you think having panel time no matter what they are used for = having more feats.
> Then good for you. I am done with explaining the *obvious* to you.


There is no way you are so dumb that you study everything Minato, yet I need to list his fights for you. That's why I Negged you, for pretending to be dumb.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Not really when Tobirama admitted his inferiority to him already.
> Also, Minato said he works fast or something...


tobirama said no such thing. he stated that minatos use of flying raijin was superior to his own, not that he is inferior to minato overall.
minato stated that tobirama was quick to act, which would be a compliment to his reaction speed.


> Lol, no. Just like how KCM Naruto became much faster when he gained BM. You can't say that his only different is appearance. Obito's power was effected greatly and that shown by the fact that he gained like 5 times the amount of Gedu-Damas he had.


naruto didnt become faster when he gained BM. obito gained conscious control over his ten tails form and manifested more truthseekers. again, nothing implies that he became physcially stronger or faster. thats an assumption on your part.



> So much so, that Tobirama's clone with FTG, when he tried to return his Gedu-dama to him failed, to which Tobirama stated "he is fast" and that they can't get him by just throwing attacks at him.


tobirama is just surprised that he managed to block his own exploding truthseeker in an instant. that doesnt imply that obito got physically faster after gaining control.
obito didnt even physically move. he just blocked his own truthseeker with a truthseeker shield.


> Yes it does. Because 8th Gate Gai in 5th step is MUCH faster than mind-less obito.


this doesnt disprove minato getting torn apart by obito before he could react while tobirama could react to obito before being torn apart.




> Why did he not tagged Madara? Surely you don't think madara is faster than obito, do you?
> Especially when Tobirama couldn't even touch him.


tobirama didnt tag madara because he knows how to fight a hiraishin user unlike a mindless obito who ran right at tobirama.



> Yes they are. We have seen him clearly pulling them out of his body.


tobirama using explosive tags for his jutsu does not mean that the tags that he placed on obito came from his body. thats a leap in logic.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

I don't like dealing with over sensitivity, and I need to sleep, but fuck it. I guess some times the long road is a must. 

Ok, I will say this shit only once, and then I am done with this shit. 

A: Kakashi Gaiden
3
3

This was the whole fight. To show off his speed. Only 1 jutsu used. FTG

All the rest is off-panel.

B: A & B's flash back
3

Again, only to show off him being faster than A. 1 Jutsu is used. FTG. 

The rest of the fight is off-panelled. 

C: His fight with Obito, R1.

Is indeed where he got a full fight and showed more than jutsu FTG.

D: His Fight against Obito, R2: 

Lost his arm right away. Is left with only FTG to use. 

Same shit with Madara. 

Other than that his Flash-back with Kushina sitting with Jiraiya about Naruto's name. Or about Kushina worrying about how will Naruto turn out, or his team picture is all irrelevant in actual battles. 

Kishi  did not give a darn about Jutsus he mentions about him like his long-named jutsu, the barrier he wanted to set up. "That Jutsu" and so on. 

Tobirama, although not having feats, people give him the benefit of the feats others have displayed. In this case Minato's usage of FTG, Oro and Kabuto's usage of ET, and Naruto's of his clones. That was an easy way out for Kishi to give to Tobirama jutsus that were around for a while instead of giving him a whole new fighting style. 



> That's why I Negged you



and it did take a lot when I was so closed. 

anyway forgot about this whole damn thing. It's not even worth it...


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

@Hussain

What you have just outlined is Minato having much more opportunities to accumulate feats than Tobirama. Congratulations.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

1- Tobirama Vs Hiruzen ------------ Minato Vs Obito
2- Tobirama & A Vs Kin & Gin ----- Minato Vs A & B
3- Tobirama Vs Izuna ---- Minato Vs fodder
4- Tobirama Vs Obito --- Minato Vs Obito 2
5- Tobirama Vs Madara --- Minato Vs Madara
6- Tobirama Vs Kin's group --- Minato Vs 50 fodders.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- Tobirama Vs Hiruzen
> 2-*  Tobirama & A Vs Kin & Gin *
> 3- * Tobirama Vs Izuna *
> 4- Tobirama Vs Obito
> ...



 Most of those happened off-panel while Tobirama vs. Izuna literally ended in a single panel.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Most of those happened off-panel while Tobirama vs. Izuna literally ended in a single panel.



that what I have been freaking tell him the whole Goddamn time. 
Who the fuck cares if it's an off-panel fights to use for feats? They work for hype
but not feats


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## Turrin (Jun 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- Tobirama Vs Hiruzen ------------ Minato Vs Obito
> 2- Tobirama & A Vs Kin & Gin ----- Minato Vs A & B
> 3- Tobirama Vs Izuna ---- Minato Vs fodder
> 4- Tobirama Vs Obito --- Minato Vs Obito 2
> ...



1.  Tobirama Vs Hiruzen ------------ Minato Vs Obito - Cool
2.  Tobirama & A Vs Kin & Gin ----- Minato Vs A & B - Zero Panels vs 10 Pages
3.  Tobirama Vs Izuna ---- Minato Vs Mahiro - Generously 2 1/2 Pages vs 10 Pages
4.  Tobirama Vs Obito --- Minato Vs Obito 2 - Cool
5.  Tobirama Vs Madara --- Minato Vs Madara - 3 Pages vs Multiple chapters
6.  Minato vs BZ/Obito ---- Tobirama vs - Multiple Chapters vs Nothing

What you have just outlined is Minato having much more opportunities to accumulate feats than Tobirama. Congratulations.



Hussain said:


> that what I have been freaking tell him the whole Goddamn time.
> Who the fuck cares if it's an off-panel fights to use for feats? They work for hype
> but not feats


NarutoX2 was pointing out how ridiculously imbalanced your correlations are not agreeing with you.


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## Trojan (Jun 17, 2015)

I thought the amount they showed or the handicapped did not matter, since every time I mention them you say "he has more opportunities"?  



> 5. Tobirama Vs Madara --- Minato Vs Madara - 3 Pages vs Multiple chapters


 how is it Minato's fault if Tobiram got defeated in 3 panels or so? 
Even tho Minato faced the stronger opponent and was without his arms? 



> 3. Tobirama Vs Izuna ---- Minato Vs Mahiro - Generously 2 1/2 Pages vs* 10 Pages*


Most of which are about Kakashi going to attack him.


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## Trojan (Jun 17, 2015)

btw, when you judge Minato's panel time, you're actually given Gai's panel time to him as well, right? 
Because I don't see what do you mean by "Multiple chapters" otherwise. 

same with this


> 6. Minato vs BZ/Obito ---- Tobirama vs - Multiple Chapters vs Nothing



Because Minato and Kakashi got just 1 panel.


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## Turrin (Jun 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I thought the amount they showed or the handicapped did not matter, since every time I mention them you say "he has more opportunities"?


Hussain do you just straight up imagine things that don't happen? Because not once in that post did I mention handicaps or amount they showed. 



> how is it Minato's fault if Tobiram got defeated in 3 panels or so?
> Even tho Minato faced the stronger opponent and was without his arms?


Irrelevant, Troll attempt.



> Most of which are about Kakashi going to attack him.


[YOUTUBE]XdofmoYcJNE[/YOUTUBE]

You listed Tobirama vs Izuna and Tobirama vs Kin & Gin. So Stfu.

Minato had more oppertunity to accumulate feats. You Proved it yourself with your own post  
End of story.



> Because Minato and Kakashi got just 1 panel


3
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Only one panel to accumulate feats indeed 



> btw, when you judge Minato's panel time, you're actually given Gai's panel time to him as well, right?
> Because I don't see what do you mean by "Multiple chapters" otherwise.


Whenever Minato is up against an enemy on panel, he has the oppertunity to accumulate more feats. That's what i'm referring to and it's not a hard concept to grasp.


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## StickaStick (Jun 17, 2015)

*walks in thread*


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## thechickensage (Jun 17, 2015)

Minato took time to perfect and improve on Tobirama's techniques.  It doesn't mean that Tobirama couldn't learn to do the more advanced FTG jutsus.  And even if Minato is slightly faster than Tobirama (which I believe), like Turrin said up above, a slower person can still hold off a quicker one (he said Hidan vs Kakashi as an example).  

And you can't deny that Tobirama has far more experience (measured in years, measured in battles, measured in the quality of enemy he fought against), so you can bet his battle sense is superior.  In life, he fought hordes of uchihas.  He fought vs Madara himself, and vs Izuna.  Who did Minato fight?  

If these were characters who we'd met from the beginning it would be fair to assume that what we'd seen represents their potential.  But it's not the case for either character...they were always secondary.  Since neither was a main character, neither got full panel time.  And since they are mostly in the final battle of the manga, with dozens of characters, kishi is obligated to spread out feats over many people.  So to say we've seen the entire repertoire of jutsus, and then count them up as if it is significant is...borderline derp.  

I don't see how anyone can see this as a stomp either way.  This is one of the closest possible matchups


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 17, 2015)

I guess tobirama can hold off rinnegan sasuke because tobirama obviosuly has years of battle experience compared to sssuke.

Or itachi one owning orochimaru is fake because orochimaru has years of experience ahead of itachi, which means orochimaru should be able to counter itachi fine.

People need to find better arguments. Experice means nothing. Both were hokage, both fought in wars, both were extremely smart. Doesnt matter who has more experience, its the skill that counts.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama could have a bigger arsenal than Minato. Tobirama has lived longer than Minato and therefore has had more time to masters a variety of techniques. Tobirama being able to use more elements than Minato also reflects well on the chances that his arsenal is more vast than Minato's. Additionally Tobirama has had much less panel time than Minato, yet has shown only three less techniques than Minato, which also shows Tobirama tends to use more varied fighting style.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im so tired of people saying their ftg are relatively significant. I dont know what manga people are reading. Minato got his nickname becuase he improved and mastered the technique, he was able to wipe out platoons in an instant because of his improvement over it. Something tobirama cannot do. Hence why he invented edo tensei, to wipe out the battlefields. Tobirama cannot use guiding thunder, nor does he have as many variants eith the technique as minato does. Most importantly, the kunai usage. Tobirama doesnt carry multiple marked kunai, and this is what gives minato the advantage. In battle, minato floods the area with kunai. Tibirama cannot depend of one ftg kunai to resuce him from the onslaught of multi directional attacks. If minato throws 30 plus kunai in his face, how does tobirama counter when he cant predict which kunai he will pop up at? Shadow clones are uselsss here because this is what minatos version of ftg is for, wiping out multiple opponents. Sensing barely helps considering its instantaneous teleportation. Tobirama being surrounded by ftg kunai like Ei was is something tobirama cannot counter, not with his version of ftg. Minato can suprise him from any side via any kunai, tobirama may just avoid one attack, but not the following attacks. 

Why do you keep saying could, would, if... Im talking feats, what we have seen. Based on feats, tobirama doesnt have a larger moveset. So why do people say he does. Im not denying tobirama has more techniques, of course he does. But to say he has more than minato is silly. Minato is more verstatike because of his toad options, senjutsu, superior speed and ftg skill.

Nah, tobirama just has more sensing feats, doesnt mean better. The finger sensing feat kinda portryaed that they were both sensors of the same calibre. The fact that only tobirama and minato were sensing the battlefield after being resurrected is also a hint from kishi that they are of the same calibre of sensing, minato sensing the power of madara in comparison to juubito also shows he's very much a good sensor.  Havent even factored in sage sensing, once becoming one with nature, tobiramas sensing is inferior. 

Lol, so because tobirama made 1 more clone than minato, that equates to better feats. Youre kidding right, tobirama doesnt have better shadow clone feats. So what, he made 2 clones that didnt do anything. At least minatos clone showed he could ftg gamakichi, naruto and sasuke all at once. Oro improved tobiramas edo tensei, so why are you even questioning this. And part 1 oro had fodder edos, we know its fodder because there is no plausible way tobirama can stand more than 5 seconds against both hashirama and tibirama, let alone defeat them. You talk about minatos panel time, yet most of it he only ever used ftg or nothing at all.his speciality was ftg, so mire panel time doesnt really mean anything, especially for a character who only ever had one big fight while alive.

You listed all their techniques. But what about Toads? Minatos arsenal extends to them as well, all toad techniques are his as well. Buntas water gunshots which have enough force to kill. Toad oil, scroll toads, gourd toads, sage toads, toad genjutsu etc. He's a sage toad, his moveset stems beyond his own techniques.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 17, 2015)

Its relatively simple. Minato defeated armies in seconds. Tobirama was defeated by 20 ninja, of whom the strongest were around Darui/Ten Ten level


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## Icegaze (Jun 17, 2015)

gosh I hate this thread
kishi already made it clear 
the jutsu that made tobirama famous for his speed was casually surpassed 

now outside speed tobirama got elemental jutsu and edo tensei which is < sage techniques+ army of toads 

this thread is just as annoying as a MS sasuke vs itachi match up. people with the same techniques shouldn't be put in battle against each other. makes for a boring thread


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## Turrin (Jun 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Im so tired of people saying their ftg are relatively significant. I dont know what manga people are reading. Minato got his nickname becuase he improved and mastered the technique, he was able to wipe out platoons in an instant because of his improvement over it. Something tobirama cannot do. Hence why he invented edo tensei, to wipe out the battlefields. Tobirama cannot use guiding thunder, nor does he have as many variants eith the technique as minato does. Most importantly, the kunai usage. Tobirama doesnt carry multiple marked kunai, and this is what gives minato the advantage. In battle, minato floods the area with kunai. Tibirama cannot depend of one ftg kunai to resuce him from the onslaught of multi directional attacks. If minato throws 30 plus kunai in his face, how does tobirama counter when he cant predict which kunai he will pop up at? Shadow clones are uselsss here because this is what minatos version of ftg is for, wiping out multiple opponents. Sensing barely helps considering its instantaneous teleportation. Tobirama being surrounded by ftg kunai like Ei was is something tobirama cannot counter, not with his version of ftg. Minato can suprise him from any side via any kunai, tobirama may just avoid one attack, but not the following attacks.


Minato coming up with the idea to prep a bunch of FTG-Kunai in advance to carry with him was smart and it does indeed improve the efficiency of the technique. But there really aren't many enemies this is making a difference against. Look at Minato's battles. Against Mahiro Minato himself found it more efficient to rely on a manual marking. Against the 50-Fodder, your right that it increased the efficiency in the sense of the speed at which Minato could cut them down, but even if he did not use pre-marked Kunai someone of Minato's stature would have cut a swathe through 50-Fodder incredibly quickly regardless. Against Ei and B, Minato spread out all of those pre-marked, Kunai, but ultimately this really didn't make a difference, as he only ended up using two Kunai as teleport points and than put a manual mark on B. Even if Minato did not have pre-marked Kunai he could have pulled off the same stunt against Ei, using this maneuver [1] [2]. 

Against Obito he again did not rely on spreading out a huge amount of Pre-Marked Kunai ether, instead he relied on markings he made well before the battle began and primarily on the single Kunai he was carrying. I will grant you that in that fight we did see him use FTG-Barrier to protect the village, but this was undermined by the fact the war showed normal FTG could teleport away TBB as well. Against Juubi it increased the speed at which he could do the set up for the Barrier, but again the Hokages were more than capable of getting the barrier up w/o that it would have just been a tad slower. Against Juubito, all of the effective Hiraishin usages that I can recal were based around manually placed marks or physical contact. Against Madara Minato also relied primarily on the single Kunai he was carrying.

So the pre-marked Kunai really did not hold much relevance or allow Minato to do anything he couldn't otherwise, outside of increasing the speed at which he could perform certain actions in certain situations however otherwise the result would have still been the same. That's not to say there wouldn't be other situations where this would have more of an impact, i'm sure their are, but most of the time it does not seem very impactful and therefore I must conclude that while it's a clever thing to do, it's not making a terrible amount of difference on average.

As far as a fight between the two would go, I don't see Pre-Marked Kunai making any difference whatsoever. After Minato or Tobirama use FTG to teleport into each others blind-spots they are going to need to physically launch an attack or attempt to mark their opponent, both Tobirama and Minato are fast enough to react to this successive physical attack and use FTG to evade. This means nether of them is hitting the other with their attacks, and it's just going to turn into an attrition based game of tag, or they are going to have to launch attacks that somehow get past each other's perception capabilities or are unavoidable. Shiki Fuujin may work depending on if sensing can detect it and Tandem Explosive Tags might work depending on BFR rules.



> Why do you keep saying could, would, if... Im talking feats, what we have seen. Based on feats, tobirama doesnt have a larger moveset. So why do people say he does. Im not denying tobirama has more techniques, of course he does. But to say he has more than minato is silly. Minato is more verstatike because of his toad options, senjutsu, superior speed and ftg skill.


Because Minato showing 3 More Techniques than Tobirama with much more panel time to accumulate feats than Tobirama, doesn't actually mean he has a larger move set than Tobirama. 

As far as versatility goes. Superior speed and FTG doesn't make Minato more versatile, it makes him better in those areas. Tobirama can use more elements than Minato, which suggested greater versatility. Minato's Toads offer him greater versatility by granting him access to their moves, but Tobirama ability to summon undead shinobi and gain access to their move pools, grants him more versatility, as he is not limited to specific individuals [or in this case Toads] he can proactively go out and seek the deceased ninjas with the right move pools for the task at hand. Minato has other stuff like Fuuinjutsu and Sennin Modo, but Tobirama has his own things like Tandem Explosive Tags and whatever his soul based Kinjutsu is, and so on. Overall on paper Tobirama seems more versatile to me, he just didn't have anywhere near as much panel time as Minato so he's trailing behind by a measily 3 techniques. 

However at the end of the day we don't know, and that's my sole point here, we don't have enough information to judge who is more versatile. It's not like ether has been touted as having mastered thousands of Jutsu like Hiruzen, while the other hasn't. It's not like one dwarfs the other in the amount of moves shown with at reasonably close panel time. Or one of them has mastery of all 5 elements and Yin/Yang, while the other has mastery of 1 or no elements. Both have support for having a large move pool and being highly versatile. 



> Nah, tobirama just has more sensing feats, doesnt mean better. The finger sensing feat kinda portryaed that they were both sensors of the same calibre. The fact that only tobirama and minato were sensing the battlefield after being resurrected is also a hint from kishi that they are of the same calibre of sensing, minato sensing the power of madara in comparison to juubito also shows he's very much a good sensor.


Tobirama could sense what clan a person was from, that's better than anything Minato showed. Could Minato be as good as Tobirama and just not showed it, I suppose so, but the manga hasn't really given me any reason to believe they are equals, and no I don't believe in these "hints" from Kishi. Minato is his golden boy, so if he wanted to make it clear Minato is as good of a sensor as Tobirama, he would have just come out and said it instead of playing around with "hints". To me it's more likely that he wanted to give Tobirama the edge in sensing to distinguish him the way he distinguished Minato for reflexes. 



> Lol, so because tobirama made 1 more clone than minato, that equates to better feats. Youre kidding right, tobirama doesnt have better shadow clone feats. So what, he made 2 clones that didnt do anything. At least minatos clone showed he could ftg gamakichi, naruto and sasuke all at once.


How does that not show greater skill. Tobirama was able to created 2 Clones while maintaining the barrier, while Minato only created 1. 



> Oro improved tobiramas edo tensei, so why are you even questioning this


You said P1-Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei is better. Orochimaru was only stated to have surpassed Tobirama as of PII. In PII Orochimaru could bring back Tensei at near full power. So there is a major difference there and based on current information any of the following models would be acceptable:

PII-Orochimaru > Tobirama > PI-Orochimaru
PII-Orochimaru > Tobirama = PI-Orochimaru
PII-Orochimaru > PI-Orochimaru > Tobirama 

We don't know where Tobirama's skill falls.



> . And part 1 oro had fodder edos, we know its fodder because there is no plausible way tobirama can stand more than 5 seconds against both hashirama and tibirama, let alone defeat them


P1-Orochimaru had weakened Edos but they weren't Fodder. Both of them were showing abilities that were superior to most Jonin, that combined with their Edo-Perks was making even a Hokage like Hiruzen struggle and ultimately give his life to seal them. And Hiruzen got lucky since Orochimaru's third Tensei failed, so Orochimaru did not get to display his full Tensei ability in that fight. 

Now assuming for instance Tobirama's capability with Edo-Tensei was equal to PI-Orochimaru, his enemies would have to face 3 Tensei of that caliber that are also packing Tandem Explosive Tags, while also facing Tobirama. That is extremely fucked up scenario that most Shinobi are not surviving, and that's just assuming Tobirama's Edo-Tensei is on par with P1-Orochimaru. If he could summon more Tensei due to a large chakra pool or summon them back a bit stronger, than it becomes all the more fucked up.



> You talk about minatos panel time, yet most of it he only ever used ftg or nothing at all.his speciality was ftg, so mire panel time doesnt really mean anything, especially for a character who only ever had one big fight while alive.


Both Tobirama and Minato rely on FTG as one of their main specialities, so that changes nothing. If you can't admit that Minato having much more panel time than Tobirama can't easily account for why Minato has shown a mere 3 more techniques than Tobirama, than you are playing favorites, and I really can't say it any nicer than that.

You'd have a point if Minato had shown like 10-20 more techniques than Tobirama, but he didn't, it was just 3. 



> You listed all their techniques. But what about Toads? Minatos arsenal extends to them as well, all toad techniques are his as well. Buntas water gunshots which have enough force to kill. Toad oil, scroll toads, gourd toads, sage toads, toad genjutsu etc. He's a sage toad, his moveset stems beyond his own techniques.


And the same is true of Tobirama's Tensei, if want to account for summons.


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## Kai (Jun 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I guess tobirama can hold off rinnegan sasuke because tobirama obviosuly has years of battle experience compared to sssuke.
> 
> Or itachi one owning orochimaru is fake because orochimaru has years of experience ahead of itachi, which means orochimaru should be able to counter itachi fine.
> 
> People need to find better arguments. Experice means nothing. Both were hokage, both fought in wars, both were extremely smart. Doesnt matter who has more experience, its the skill that counts.


I'll cosign you, sir.


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## Turrin (Jun 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> I'll cosign you, sir.


The Exp doesn't matter thing comes largely from Naruto out maneuvering shinobi much more experienced than him, but people need to bare in mind that Naruto's entire character is based around being unpredictable due to acting in ways that normal shinobi would never be expected to do. So that's why he's able to pull off stunts like that. Naruto and to a lesser extent Sasuke also possess very rare abilities or invent new abilities, which experience isn't going to be as useful against.

However outside of Naruto and again to a lesser extent Sasuke, experience has for the most part been shown to be valuable becaus it reflects on a Shinobi's knowledge. I.E. the more exp a Shinobi has the more knowledge of various techniques and characters he/she will have. Tobirama having an extremely lengthy career spanning 3 wars [clan, first, and second] and having invented a fair number of the more prominent techniques himself has more knowledge of various techniques and jutsu than most shinobi in the story. 

Now this probably isn't making a difference in Minato vs Tobirama, as both have a fair amount of knowledge on each others techniques. When pitting them against a wide array of enemies we may then begin to see this making a difference. Though obviously the gap between the two is not quite to the degree of the gap between Minato and say Onoki/Hiruzen/Chiyo or even more drastically current Orochimaru, but it will probably be at least somewhat tangible and saying it will have no effect is going too far in the opposite direction


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Minato coming up with the idea to prep a bunch of FTG-Kunai in advance to carry with him was smart and it does indeed improve the efficiency of the technique. But there really aren't many enemies this is making a difference against. Look at Minato's battles. Against Mahiro Minato himself found it more efficient to rely on a manual marking. Against the 50-Fodder, your right that it increased the efficiency in the sense of the speed at which Minato could cut them down, but even if he did not use pre-marked Kunai someone of Minato's stature would have cut a swathe through 50-Fodder incredibly quickly regardless. Against Ei and B, Minato spread out all of those pre-marked, Kunai, but ultimately this really didn't make a difference, as he only ended up using two Kunai as teleport points and than put a manual mark on B. Even if Minato did not have pre-marked Kunai he could have pulled off the same stunt against Ei, using this maneuver [1] [2].


He relied on manual marking against mahiru because Mahiru and his clones were all hidden behind trees and stuff. Plus he let kakashi lead that mission, so I'm not sure what you thought minato was gonna do with his kunai in that situation, especially when he was only the back up. Not to mention you've forgotten that minato was saving all his marked weapons for the front lines, because that's what he used to rescue his remaining comrades on the battlefield.

He probably could have done it without ftg, or maybe not, doesn't really matter. The point is how fast and effective he did it that made people fear him. Let's not forget that minatos version of ftg outclasses tobiramas so much that people retreated on the battlefield when they see minato, minatos mastery over FTG earned him a title that Tobirama did not get despite having the same technique. And considering that there were only 2-3 konoha ninja left compared to their 50, it suggests that they were quite skilled. So you can't really make any assumptions when you don't know precisely the level of strength they all were. Tobirama lost to less than half that number against no named "elites". Obito after seeing rin die, took out dozens of elites on his own. Tobirama with Hiruzen, Danzo, Kagami etc were running. Maybe if he had minatos level of ftg, he could have wiped them all out. He couldn't even use ftg to teleport his team to safety, what does that tell you  

Minato only ended up using 2 kunai because he  was signalled to retreat immediately after the fight started. Come on turrin, you act like minato has been in long battles. Minato vs A & B wasn't even a fight, it was a quick skirmish. If the battle went on, of course minato would have utilized more kunai.



> Against Obito he again did not rely on spreading out a huge amount of Pre-Marked Kunai ether, instead he relied on markings he made well before the battle began and primarily on the single Kunai he was carrying. I will grant you that in that fight we did see him use FTG-Barrier to protect the village, but this was undermined by the fact the war showed normal FTG could teleport away TBB as well. Against Juubi it increased the speed at which he could do the set up for the Barrier, but again the Hokages were more than capable of getting the barrier up w/o that it would have just been a tad slower. Against Juubito, all of the effective Hiraishin usages that I can recal were based around manually placed marks or physical contact. Against Madara Minato also relied primarily on the single Kunai he was carrying.


Obito is a different opponent to Ei. Minato already had a rough idea what Ei was all about. Hence why Minato decided to use FTG to counter his speed. Obito however, Minato didn't know anything about him. Notice that Minato charged at Obito in order to test his abilities. Yet against Ei, he was immediately on the defensive and waited for a counter. Minato marked the battlefield against Ei because he already knew how he was going to counter him. But Minato had to first of all test obitos ability before doing anything else. Not to mention there was atleast one kunai on the ground for minato to escape to. Him spreading more kunai wouldn't have benefited him at all. 

Minato used guiding thunder of the juubi bomb. Guiding thunder uses less chakra than ftg when dealing with large objects. Minato has to build up the chakra in proportion to the size of whatever he is trying to teleport. Not only does he not have the amount of chakra to do so, even if he did, it would have taken forever to build up that much chakra. Minato was tired after teleporting kurama, yet you think he teleported the juubi bomb without breaking a sweat? Do you also think base minatos chakra reserves are greater than kcm minatos? Because with the nine tails chakra, minato was exhaused after using ftg to move everyone with the alliance. That's how you know minato used the barrier on the juubi bomb, because he moved it to the ocean in base with no problem, yet was tired after using "regular" FTG to move the alliance (even with the nine tails chakra). Databook says the barrier is instant as well, so I have no doubt he used the barrier. 

The attack on Madara was no more than a desperate attempt at stalling him. He knew they were low on options and his only choice was senjutsu. He used gaara's sand wall as a means of surprise. Not to mention he was already handicapped with one arm. Nothing minato did in that situation would have made a single difference, madara was just too strong. And again, you're missing the point. Minato was on the offensive, he was not waiting for madara to attack, nor was he waiting for a counter attack. It was just supposed to be a quick surprise to catch madara off guard. If he threw out a bunch of kunai, it would alerted madara faster to what was going on and wasted time. The point was to act as fast as possible and hopefully catch him off guard. 



> So the pre-marked Kunai really did not hold much relevance or allow Minato to do anything he couldn't otherwise, outside of increasing the speed at which he could perform certain actions in certain situations however otherwise the result would have still been the same. That's not to say there wouldn't be other situations where this would have more of an impact, i'm sure their are, but most of the time it does not seem very impactful and therefore I must conclude that while it's a clever thing to do, it's not making a terrible amount of difference on average.
> 
> 
> As far as a fight between the two would go, I don't see Pre-Marked Kunai making any difference whatsoever. After Minato or Tobirama use FTG to teleport into each others blind-spots they are going to need to physically launch an attack or attempt to mark their opponent, both Tobirama and Minato are fast enough to react to this successive physical attack and use FTG to evade. This means nether of them is hitting the other with their attacks, and it's just going to turn into an attrition based game of tag, or they are going to have to launch attacks that somehow get past each other's perception capabilities or are unavoidable. Shiki Fuujin may work depending on if sensing can detect it and Tandem Explosive Tags might work depending on BFR rules.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 18, 2015)

Of course it will make a difference. Minato's version allows him to teleport more times than tobirama. If Tobirama evades one blind sided attack from minato, where will he teleport to next that minato won't have already percieved and aniticipated. Tobiramas lack of marked kunai makes his usage of ftg more preditable and easier to counter. It's just like how Ei analysed all minatos kunai and planned to intercept the next one he jumps to. That's tobiramas biggest problem here. Minato can easily anticpate tobiramas teleportation points and catch him off guard, meanwhile minato has over a couple dozen places he can move to at any given second. The less markings, the easier it is to anticipate ftg. If Ei fought Tobirama, and tobirama used his version. Ei would have easily countered it with his top speed. Same thing in minatos case. I honestly don't know how anyone in thier right mind can say minatos version of ftg doesn't give him the advantage in a fight between two ftg users. 

Tobirama is a speedster (fastest man ninja of his time). FTG is one of his signature move. Minato knows this. Just like against Ei, Minato will use his versatility of FTG to counteract Tobiramas speed and his own ftg. Whoever the better speedster is, will be the one who wins the fight. Minato's shunshin surpasses Tobiramas, as well as FTG. That's basically tobiramas main fighting style. It's like you trying to tell me that Tobiramas version of ET can still match up against Kabuto's, it's absurd. The sheer number of prepped kunai will overwhelm and pressure Tobiramas version. You act like tobirama can just teleport at will like minato can, tobirama has to create markings on the fly. Not only does that slow him down, it makes him easier to predict and aniticpate. At this point I'm really just repeating myself, I just find it to be common sense that Tobirama does not stand a chance in an FTG and Speed battle. Everything else tobirama has displayed is a non factor.



> Because Minato showing 3 More Techniques than Tobirama with much more panel time to accumulate feats than Tobirama, doesn't actually mean he has a larger move set than Tobirama.
> 
> As far as versatility goes. Superior speed and FTG doesn't make Minato more versatile, it makes him better in those areas. Tobirama can use more elements than Minato, which suggested greater versatility. Minato's Toads offer him greater versatility by granting him access to their moves, but Tobirama ability to summon undead shinobi and gain access to their move pools, grants him more versatility, as he is not limited to specific individuals [or in this case Toads] he can proactively go out and seek the deceased ninjas with the right move pools for the task at hand. Minato has other stuff like Fuuinjutsu and Sennin Modo, but Tobirama has his own things like Tandem Explosive Tags and whatever his soul based Kinjutsu is, and so on. Overall on paper Tobirama seems more versatile to me, he just didn't have anywhere near as much panel time as Minato so he's trailing behind by a measily 3 techniques.
> 
> However at the end of the day we don't know, and that's my sole point here, we don't have enough information to judge who is more versatile. It's not like ether has been touted as having mastered thousands of Jutsu like Hiruzen, while the other hasn't. It's not like one dwarfs the other in the amount of moves shown with at reasonably close panel time. Or one of them has mastery of all 5 elements and Yin/Yang, while the other has mastery of 1 or no elements. Both have support for having a large move pool and being highly versatile.



Based on feats, Minato is more verstaile and that's all that matters. Ninja (especially in high level fights) use their best and most effective techniques. SO whatever Minato and Tobirama haven't shown, it's most likely inferior to what they have. We know for a fact that tobirama is most skilled in Suiton ninjutsu, so all his other elements are a non factor. Orochimaru knows probably most ninjutsu ever created, yet he mainly fights with snakes..why? because that's what he's best at. Minato fights primarily with ftg and rasengan, because that's what he finds most effective. When it's kage vs kage, it's the most effective techniques we'll see. Minato vs Tobirama is a battle of speed and space time ninjutsu. Tobirama aint gonna use elements because they can't even touch a teleporter. S




> Tobirama could sense what clan a person was from, that's better than anything Minato showed. Could Minato be as good as Tobirama and just not showed it, I suppose so, but the manga hasn't really given me any reason to believe they are equals, and no I don't believe in these "hints" from Kishi. Minato is his golden boy, so if he wanted to make it clear Minato is as good of a sensor as Tobirama, he would have just come out and said it instead of playing around with "hints". To me it's more likely that he wanted to give Tobirama the edge in sensing to distinguish him the way he distinguished Minato for reflexes.
> 
> 
> How does that not show greater skill. Tobirama was able to created 2 Clones while maintaining the barrier, while Minato only created 1.


Funny how you are sensing feats and that minato just may not have shown exactly how skilled he was in sensing. Yet you go on about tobiramas edo tensei like he has feats  Really? Minato only knew one uzumaki in his entire life. Tobirama was surrounded by them,  their village still existed at the time and his sister in law was one. So of course he'd recognize her chakra. He sensed that her chakra was similar to those of the uzumaki clan, well whooptidoo. Minato has shown to sense chakra from long distances (like tobirama) and shown the finger sensing ability (like tobirama). And he still has sage sensing in reserve, which grants sensory ability superior to anything tobirama has. Senjutsu boosts ninjutsu as well, so it would only increase his regular sensing.

Minato made 1 clone because that's all he needed. He sensed obito or his marking or whatever and used a clone to slash him. How does that in anyway indicate that his clone usage is inferior? Tobirama and Hashirama made as many as they could for a different purpose. You really think tobirama has more chakra than minato with the nine tails chakra  I really don't understand your way of thinking right now.



> You said P1-Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei is better. Orochimaru was only stated to have surpassed Tobirama as of PII. In PII Orochimaru could bring back Tensei at near full power. So there is a major difference there and based on current information any of the following models would be acceptable:
> 
> PII-Orochimaru > Tobirama > PI-Orochimaru
> PII-Orochimaru > Tobirama = PI-Orochimaru
> ...



First of all, show me Tobirama's edo tensei feats. Because I don't understand how you can come up with so many assumptions based on 0 panels of his usage with it. Secondly, do you even remember how edo tensei works? It requires a living sacrifice and dna of the summoned soul. So tell me, what living sacrifice does tobirama have on standby and whose dna does he have in his possession? Third.. lets assume tobiramas version is the same level as orochimaru's. Orochimaru summoned 2 of the most powerful ninja to ever live (The God of Shinobi and Fastest of all SHinobi). Yet an old aged hiruzen still managed against them. So again, tell me does tobirama have anyone of that caliber that he can summon? Considering there was no one stronger than hashirama, and very few on tobiramas level, that means whoever tobirama summons would definitely be considerably weaker compared to the quality and strength of the edos oro used. If they aren't at least kage level, then they are fodder. And if old hiruzen could still handle two powerful edos, then of course minato in his prime would have little problem, especially when he's a sealing expert.

But all that doesn't even matter because you don't even know if tobirama has the requirements to even use edo tensei. Nor do you know the strength or quality of the ninja he can possibly revive, nor do you know the skill level of his edo tensei. And I don't beleive it to be on the same level of part 1 oros, considering tobiramas version was primarily used to clear battlefields by blowing them up. Implying that their fighting strength wasn't all that. His et is featless, you can't even tell me how his version looked or works.



> Both Tobirama and Minato rely on FTG as one of their main specialities, so that changes nothing. If you can't admit that Minato having much more panel time than Tobirama can't easily account for why Minato has shown a mere 3 more techniques than Tobirama, than you are playing favorites, and I really can't say it any nicer than that. You'd have a point if Minato had shown like 10-20 more techniques than Tobirama, but he didn't, it was just 3. And the same is true of Tobirama's Tensei, if want to account for summons.


I don't know why you are going on about this. I don't care about panel time. I don't even care about how large an arsenal tobirama may or may not have. But what I don't like is when people say he has shown to have a larger arsenal, that's utter crap and untrue. He probably does have a larger arsenal than minato, but if you can't list them, then don't bother mentioning it. It's a waste of time.


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## Kaiser (Jun 18, 2015)

It will be a battle of speed and Minato's superiority in shunshin, hiraishin usage and general speed department alongside the potential boost of sage mode gives him win


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