# Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (December 20, 2019)



## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 15, 2015)

​Colin Trevorrow has been confirmed as the director for it:



> *JURASSIC WORLD Helmer Colin Trevorrow Confirmed To Direct STAR WARS EPISODE IX*
> 
> We obviously know that J.J. Abrams is directing Star Wars: The Force Awakens, while it's already been confirmed that Rian Johnson (Looper) will write and direct Star Wars Episode VIII. Now, Star Wars Episode IX has a director, and it's the man who helmed the third highest grossing movie of all-time, Colin Trevorrow! The news was made official by Walt Disney Studios Chairman Alan Horn at D23 earlier today. Production is obviously still some time away, but the Jurassic World director will be heading to Lucasfilm this year to start working on the movie which is set for a 2019 release.
> 
> ...


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## Atlas (Aug 15, 2015)

Oh boy, another new thread.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 15, 2015)

The amount of hate that Trevorrow has getting on some sites due to this announcement is astoundingly ridiculous. Talking about jumping the gun.

This is just gonna make me wanna support this a lot more.


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## Stunna (Aug 15, 2015)

are you srs


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## Suigetsu (Aug 15, 2015)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> The amount of hate that Trevorrow has getting on some sites due to this announcement is astoundingly ridiculous. Talking about jumping the gun.
> 
> This is just gonna make me wanna support this a lot more.



Trevorrow it's a terrible director so get ready for cardboard acting.

No matter how much people suck his dick for Jurassic World, that man doesnt know how to direct something that doesnt have a big name for him to carry him like an automatic wagon.


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## SakugaDaichi (Aug 16, 2015)

Should've been Edgar Wright lol ...


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## James Bond (Aug 16, 2015)

y u do dis sennin


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## Saishin (Aug 16, 2015)

So there will be dinosaurs in SW huh


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## Aeternus (Aug 16, 2015)

Saishin said:


> So there will be dinosaurs in SW huh



Force-sensitive dinosaurs FTW!!! lol


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## Shark Skin (Aug 16, 2015)

In before Trevorrow is out of this project 2 years later. You heard it hear first


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## B Rabbit (Aug 16, 2015)

Yeah not getting the Sen hate in this thread, but oh well. 

Didn't even know the 8th Starwars movie had a thread.


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## NostalgiaFan (Aug 17, 2015)

Suigetsu said:


> No matter how much people suck his dick for Jurassic World, that man doesnt know how to direct something that doesnt have a big name for him to carry him like an automatic wagon.


This man gets it


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## Suzuku (Sep 3, 2015)

Were the deleted posts arguing about why this thread was made? kek.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 3, 2015)

probably

and tbf the fact that this thread even exists is dumb as hell


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## Stunna (Sep 3, 2015)

since one of them was mine, probably


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## Lucaniel (Sep 3, 2015)

>2019

2019?!??! 

will this forum even still _exist_ when that comes out?


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## Suzuku (Sep 3, 2015)

it will be anifreak forums


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## BlazingInferno (Sep 3, 2015)

Yes, that's what the deleted posts entailed  Not often I go against a mod (though this pretty much what everyone else here is thinking), but isn't it more pointless to keep this thread around for a movie coming out in 4 years that we hardly know about than deleting posts talking about how pointless at the moment this thread is and bitching about them being pointless? Plus the movie before it doesn't even exist yet. The Marvel/DC movie threads are different because we can think of what they might be about. I mean come on Jove.


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## Atlas (Sep 3, 2015)

I like how my post stayed.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 3, 2015)

well since this film is not gonna be released for another four years

we may as well talk about something else

yo atlas whatchu think of the new rick and morty

rick's ship is GOAT


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## Jagger (Sep 3, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> >2019
> 
> 2019?!??!
> 
> will this forum even still _exist_ when that comes out?


Tbh, I think it will, just that it'd be dead as fuck.


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## Atlas (Sep 3, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> well since this film is not gonna be released for another four years
> 
> we may as well talk about something else
> 
> ...



So fucking dark yet so hilarious. I'm going to hell.


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## BlazingInferno (Sep 3, 2015)

Oh man, Rick and Morty  Slurpin', slurpin', slurpin' it up!


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## Mider T (Sep 3, 2015)

What did you all expect?  Average time between Star Wars movies are 3 years.


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## BlazingInferno (Nov 30, 2015)

Yo, this thread still exists?


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## Stunna (Nov 30, 2015)

For some reason.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 12, 2016)

> *Star Wars 9: Colin Trevorrow Responds to George Lucas Fan Petition*
> 
> Star Wars creator George Lucas may have praised Star Wars: Episode VII – The Force Awakens but he seemingly doesn’t hold the same high regard for its owners at Disney. Despite selling Lucasfilm and his IPs for over $4 billion in late 2012 to the home of Mickey Mouse, Lucas found himself gradually out of the picture. His ideas for the new trilogy of Star Wars movies were partly (mostly?) abandoned, leading to Lucas defining his relationship with Disney a “break up” and later, calling them “white slavers” before taking back the choice words.
> 
> ...


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## Stunna (Jan 12, 2016)

Lucas didn't say anything...


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## Bender (Jan 12, 2016)

The fan petition shit is him saying something.


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## Stunna (Jan 12, 2016)

> fans started an odd internet petition


_Lucas didn't even start the petition._

Here, hold this L, my dude.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 12, 2016)

they should all kill themselves

but trevorrow is very likely to give us another tfa, in the sense of it slavishly aping the OT


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## BlazingInferno (Jan 12, 2016)

And the thread still lingers.


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## Bender (Jan 12, 2016)

@Stunna

Ah. Still I hope he enjoys his billions in silence, and doesn't say anything as unbelievably stupid as that white slavery bullshit like he did a while ago.


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## Zeta42 (Jan 13, 2016)

Eternal Dreamer said:


> Force-sensitive dinosaurs FTW!!! lol


DESANN HYPE
E
S
A
N
N

H
Y
P
E


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 13, 2016)

> *Star Wars 9 Director Promises ‘Satisfying’ Answers to Rey Theories*
> 
> In the months leading up to the release of Star Wars: Episode VII – The Force Awakens, fans were generating countless theories about the film’s events, most of them dealing with possible relations between the new characters and the returning heroes of the original trilogy. Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy referred to Star Wars 7 as a generational story, which only lent credence to the belief the film would focus on family ties. That hypothesis turned out to be true, as villain Kylo Ren is revealed to be the son of Han Solo and Leia Organa, Ben Solo.
> 
> ...


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 29, 2016)

> *Star Wars 9: Director Colin Trevorrow Will Shoot on Film*
> 
> The Star Wars films always prided themselves on their use of cutting edge technology. For Episode IV: A New Hope, George Lucas practically built what would become Industrial Light and Magic from the ground up. The prequels, for all the ire they’ve received, did push the boundaries of digital and motion-capture technologies. On the other hand, the now Disney-owned LucasFilm has been adamant from the beginning about using a blend of old-school and modern technologies.
> 
> ...


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## A. Waltz (Jan 30, 2016)

sounds like they're hinting at rey being obi wan's granddaughter. consequences for the entire star wars galaxy... what better way than have one of the most moral jedi from the republic having disobeyed the rules and fallen in love to have a child (whether knowingly or unknowingly), and for that force sensitive child to have another force sensitive child and to continue the lineage beyond just the surviving skywalker twins. the fact that luke knows exactly who she is could mean that old ben told him about how he might have a grandchild or something cuz he probably felt it in the force idk.

making her be han and leia's secret child or whatever doesn't seem like it's something that would affect the entire star wars universe either. it would just be more continuation. i think the kenobi lineage would definitely affect the reputation of the jedi, and obi wan's relationship with anakin. plus it would be including the prequels, not just the OT or the new trilogy so it feels more "entire (movie) universe"-ish.

plus i dont think it will be "deeply satisfying" if she's luke's daughter since most people assume she is so it'd be predictable. but iuno maybe to him the definition of deeply satisfying is confirming those predictable predictions so perhaps she really is luke's daughter. but that just makes this sound like a bunch of hype for nothing. if she's gonna be luke's daughter, did you really need to wait til the last movie in the trilogy to mention something that was obvious and predicted since the first  movie in the trilogy? 

also the fact that disney hired the jurassic world director just screams "we want to make this the greatest selling movie of all time" again.


edit: can a mod copy this post and put it in one of the other star wars threads? or move it idc.


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## Suigetsu (Jan 30, 2016)

Man I feel like every director wants to do it's own thing but they are just forced to clean up each others mess.
Wasnt the story planned from the beggining? I guess it wasnt, oh well Never liked trevorrow anyway but at least he kind of knows what's up, unlike Jar Jar A.

Sounds like a clusterfuck.

LOL Jar jar abrahams talking about making the movie like the original ones but spams lensflare and extensive cgi shots which beat the whole porpuse.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## A. Waltz (Jan 30, 2016)

fuck jar jar 

tbh i wish they just kept lucas' plan. i mean i know people hate him but he was at least involved in the clone wars and it would have given me hope that TFA would be good if he had written it since he knows what's up with that. well shit he didn't even need to write it, just give some ideas or something. his writing sucks shit.

but jar jar fucking sucks. cant be one bit original. fucking OTfag

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BlazingInferno (Jan 30, 2016)

I thought you were all positive about the movie Waltz 

EDIT: Oh yeah, why is this thread still here?


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 30, 2016)

BlazingInferno said:


> I thought you were all positive about the movie Waltz



I do not know if they are simply hating on the director, or the fact they did not get Luke Skywalker fighting Cthulhu like he did in the EU (Abeloth).

But I think it is just hating on Abrams.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Pilaf (Jan 30, 2016)

Wait, there are fucking Aboleths in the EU? That's some straight up DnD shit


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 30, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> Wait, there are fucking Aboleths in the EU? That's some straight up DnD shit



Yes, Cthulhu's girlfriend took up residence in the Star Wars EU. 



This is after Jacen went full Dark Side; this is after the Kilik storyline (though I wouldn't mind seeing the Kilik appear in some form in the Sequel Trilogy), and this is after the Yuuzhan Vong.  You went from demon-like invaders with organic ships from another galaxy who are without the force, to a storyline about an insect-like species with a hive mind, to an eldritch abomination.


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## Pilaf (Jan 30, 2016)

Disney technically owns all the Legends material, and might be cherry picking things they like from it in the future. I believe that was mentioned in the new canon press release. To be honest, for my tastes, I don't miss the old continuity at all. It became very bloated and convoluted. I kept up with it for a few years then gave up trying. I mostly know the EU through video games and some of the earlier comics like Dark Empire.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 30, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> Disney technically owns all the Legends material, and might be cherry picking things they like from it in the future. I believe that was mentioned in the new canon press release. To be honest, for my tastes, I don't miss the old continuity at all. It became very bloated and convoluted. I kept up with it for a few years then gave up trying. I mostly know the EU through video games and some of the earlier comics like Dark Empire.



For my part, I never read most of it. The main books I read from the series were the Bacta War, Outbound Flight, and the Truce At Bakura.  My family has books from other parts of the EU, but I haven't read them.  Never got into the Yuuzhan Vong stuff, much less Legacy of the Force.  At most, I filled myself in on info about them through the Essential Guides.


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## Banhammer (Feb 2, 2016)

you know what I wish they'd get into?

Mandalore. It's like, the best part of the whole Star Wars deal


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 25, 2017)

May the Force be with us on May 24th, 2019.


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## Mider T (Apr 25, 2017)

May the (twenty)fourth be with you.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Jake CENA (Apr 25, 2017)




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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 26, 2017)




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## Swarmy (Apr 30, 2017)

Some day my kids will look at SW and say "the fuck I'm not watching all these movies just to be up to date with the newest one ", at which point they'll be up for adoption

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 24, 2017)




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## BlazingInferno (May 24, 2017)

This thread still exists?


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## Catalyst75 (May 25, 2017)

A. Waltz said:


> ounds like they're hinting at rey being obi wan's granddaughter. consequences for the entire star wars galaxy... what better way than have one of the most moral jedi from the republic having disobeyed the rules and fallen in love to have a child (whether knowingly or unknowingly), and for that force sensitive child to have another force sensitive child and to continue the lineage beyond just the surviving skywalker twins. the fact that luke knows exactly who she is could mean that old ben told him about how he might have a grandchild or something cuz he probably felt it in the force idk.



Technically speaking, we have never seen Obi-Wan's family, since all Jedi have to come from certain family lines.  If Obi-Wan had a brother or a sister, their children could have become Force-Sensitives, and eventually be recruited by Luke's Jedi Order.  There, they have a daughter who is strong in the Force - Rey - and they send her off with Luke to keep her safe when Kylo Ren turns on the Jedi Order.

And given how Kylo Ren so quickly reacted to the mention of "a girl" (Rey) who helped Finn escape Jakku, he may know Rey from the past, but also know her parentage.


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## RAGING BONER (May 25, 2017)

nah, she's the "chosen one". 

Vader reincarnated and all that jazz.


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## A. Waltz (May 26, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Technically speaking, we have never seen Obi-Wan's family, since all Jedi have to come from certain family lines.  If Obi-Wan had a brother or a sister, their children could have become Force-Sensitives, and eventually be recruited by Luke's Jedi Order.  There, they have a daughter who is strong in the Force - Rey - and they send her off with Luke to keep her safe when Kylo Ren turns on the Jedi Order.
> 
> And given how Kylo Ren so quickly reacted to the mention of "a girl" (Rey) who helped Finn escape Jakku, he may know Rey from the past, but also know her parentage.


damn i forgot i  ever wrote this tbh lol

after rereading it i think my idea was shit as always lol

tho i would love to see an obi wan movie w/ satine 
but i want ewan mcgregor back and he's too old for a pre-prequels obi wan. ;~;


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## Suigetsu (Jun 11, 2017)

A. Waltz said:


> fuck jar jar
> 
> tbh i wish they just kept lucas' plan. i mean i know people hate him but he was at least involved in the clone wars and it would have given me hope that TFA would be good if he had written it since he knows what's up with that. well shit he didn't even need to write it, just give some ideas or something. his writing sucks shit.
> 
> but jar jar fucking sucks. cant be one bit original. fucking OTfag



His writting doesnt really suck BUT it is just rusted as fuck. Like a car that you havent used in years, may as well just tell the story to a pair of competent and kickass writters. End result would had been great.

SW nerd fans are really devoted and loyal but they are zealots, they also demonize lucas which I think it's underserving. The current SW situation it's the fault of all the nerds that whinned about the prequels "muh ruined childhood" and bullied jake loyd. Fucking bastards.

jar jar "saved SW" fucking idiots, he didnt because there is absolutely nothing new or different.

Rouge one is a war story with SW aesthetics, that's just it.


Also Good luck with EP 8, you have a fucking hack in charge. BTW Have you noticed how all the directors for these movies are nothing but studio dogs without vision?


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## A. Waltz (Jun 12, 2017)

Suigetsu said:


> His writting doesnt really suck BUT it is just rusted as fuck. Like a car that you havent used in years, may as well just tell the story to a pair of competent and kickass writters. End result would had been great.
> 
> SW nerd fans are really devoted and loyal but they are zealots, they also demonize lucas which I think it's underserving. The current SW situation it's the fault of all the nerds that whinned about the prequels "muh ruined childhood" and bullied jake loyd. Fucking bastards.
> 
> ...


when the fuck did i even write this post what the hell ?


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## Suigetsu (Jun 12, 2017)

A. Waltz said:


> when the fuck did i even write this post what the hell ?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jun 13, 2017)




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## Roman (Jun 14, 2017)

Suigetsu said:


> Trevorrow it's a terrible director so get ready for cardboard acting.



Uhm.....

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Roman (Jun 14, 2017)

Just saying, cardboard acting is already the standard for Star Wars films now.


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## Roman (Jun 14, 2017)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> The amount of hate that Trevorrow has getting on some sites due to this announcement is astoundingly ridiculous. Talking about jumping the gun.
> 
> This is just gonna make me wanna support this a lot more.



The only reason Trevorrow was successful with Jurassic World was because people were going to go see the movie no matter how bad it was because everyone has fond memories of the very first movie. It's the same reason people kept going to see the sequels. He was just lucky to be the director of that movie. Its success had nothing to do with him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Jake CENA (Jun 14, 2017)

jurassic world made me sleep twice while watching the movie

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Suigetsu (Jun 14, 2017)

Roman said:


> The only reason Trevorrow was successful with Jurassic World was because people were going to go see the movie no matter how bad it was because everyone has fond memories of the very first movie. It's the same reason people kept going to see the sequels. He was just lucky to be the director of that movie. Its success had nothing to do with him.


The irony is that he actually thinks he was the reason of it's success. Check out his interviews on how he "relied on his instincts" and had a tight closed circle of friends that he kept showing the cuts...


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jun 14, 2017)

Roman said:


> The only reason Trevorrow was successful with Jurassic World was because people were going to go see the movie no matter how bad it was because everyone has fond memories of the very first movie. It's the same reason people kept going to see the sequels. He was just lucky to be the director of that movie. Its success had nothing to do with him.



I find that very hard to believe and that is up to a lot of speculation. Would anyone say the same thing if someone else had been in the director chair?

All I am saying is that so far he's done nothing bad to warrant such negativity. It'll also be most likely his only time directing a movie like this just like it was with J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson.

He deserves a chance, it's fair.


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## Roman (Jun 14, 2017)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Would anyone say the same thing if someone else had been in the director chair?



If the movie was still terrible under a different director, I'd absolutely say the same thing.



Sennin of Hardwork said:


> All I am saying is that so far he's done nothing bad to warrant such negativity.



Have....have you even seen Jurassic World??!!?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jun 14, 2017)

Yeah I did, it was a fun movie and it was well received. Wasn't critically panned nor a box office flop either.

The hate it and the director get it's exaggerated and overblown.


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## Suigetsu (Jun 14, 2017)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Yeah I did, it was a fun movie and it was well received.


Just like TFA, it's called Nostalgia pandering and pre-sold title.

Have you even bothered on reading his interviews during and after production? Guy sounds like a pretentious east coast writter, and his appearance dont help it either.

He is a rookie that has no fucking idea how to craft a proper movie. He puts dollies just for the sake of having the camera moving, he has zero sense of cinematography nor of scene composition. His movies are plagued by boring and tedious exposition and he already did the same movie twice.

Basically he is your typical studio lapdog, and one that won the lottery that is.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jun 14, 2017)

Typical argument from those that hate the new trilogy. I read how you dislike the fans for being zealots against the prequels as the reasons why we got these new movies, yet where exactly do you fall in by doing now the same thing with these ones?

I haven't, care to link them here to understand better your point? Because you haven't so far explained anything at all about why he is unfit, except just insult him. You sound like you're a people person to know that much from a couple of interviews. And what the hell does his appearance has to do with anything?

Seems they should've hired you to direct this one if you know so much about filmmaking. 

Still not going back on my simple point: let's give him a chance. What's so hard in that?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Suigetsu (Jun 14, 2017)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Typical argument from those that hate the new trilogy. I read how you dislike the fans for being zealots against the prequels as the reasons why we got these new movies, yet where exactly do you fall in by doing now the same thing with these ones?


Original SW where autheur movies, these are just studio assignments to lap dogs.
I care about the craft of the movies, if people like it or not is not my concern. But I find it pretty dissapointing how people are so easely.
SW fans however carry an incredible Zeal.




> I haven't, care to link them here to understand better your point? Because you haven't so far explained anything at all about why he is unfit, except just insult him.


Imagine you make a crappy telenovela with huge amount of boring exposition and the most pedestrian takes that you could possibly imagine. Such as moving the camera just because you can.

Then james cameron arrives and says, hey kid wanna make avatar 2? Obviously you will say yes.

Now this creep never had screenings " he didnt even showed spielberg the final cut till the premiere"

He was also afraid of criticism this he kept a close circle of people he knew to show his stuff.

This guy has zero sense of professionalism and you can tell he isnt even aware of it. Such as his "jumping the shark" auto reference.

Yet he claims " his instinct guided him" in the most arrogant and smug way you can possibly imagine.



> You sound like you're a people person to know that much from a couple of interviews. And what the hell does his appearance has to do with anything?


Interviews and work actually.
As for his appearance, well just an observation really.

I'll post interviews later on when I get home.



> Seems they should've hired you to direct this one if you know so much about filmmaking.


I know I rant a lot and stuff and I know many of you guys hate my guts. But yes I would given you an actual good movie and would had beat titanics balls.

Cause I had something he never had called passion.


> Still not going back on my simple point: let's give him a chance. What's so hard in that?


You are too forgiving and kind. Way more than me. Give him the benefit of the doubt if you want.

He is a hack with the ego on the air.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Mider T (Jun 14, 2017)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Yeah I did, it was a fun movie and it was well received. Wasn't critically panned nor a box office flop either.
> 
> The hate it and the director get it's exaggerated and overblown.


This.  Nostalgia only goes so far, JW set records.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Suigetsu (Jun 15, 2017)

Mider T said:


> This.  Nostalgia only goes so far, JW set records.


Sure thing, that's why movies such as "TFA" which happened to be complete crap ended up earning and even beating JW. You under estimate the power of nostalgia.


As promised @Sennin of Hardwork 

Snowpiercer


> "This movie feels as original and personal to me as 'Safety Not Guaranteed.'"


As you can see he is oblivious as fuck, both movies are the fucking same.


> "I was constantly pushing against any instinct I had to do an homage."


We all know this is complete bullshit as it rided the "homage" and "reference" to whole new levels.


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## Roman (Jun 15, 2017)

Suigetsu said:


> Also Good luck with EP 8, you have a fucking hack in charge. BTW Have you noticed how all the directors for these movies are nothing but studio dogs without vision?



All they want is

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jun 15, 2017)

Suigetsu said:


> Original SW where autheur movies, these are just studio assignments to lap dogs.
> I care about the craft of the movies, if people like it or not is not my concern. But I find it pretty dissapointing how people are so easely.
> SW fans however carry an incredible Zeal.



Even Rian Johnson fits as a "studio lap dog" to your standards?

I dislike how the fandom is never satisfied with basically anything unless it is TESB, but I'm finding you have your own kind of zeal in this topic too  as well because, likewise, there doesn't seem to be anything that pleases you.



Suigetsu said:


> Imagine you make a crappy telenovela with huge amount of boring exposition and the most pedestrian takes that you could possibly imagine. Such as moving the camera just because you can.
> 
> Then james cameron arrives and says, hey kid wanna make avatar 2? Obviously you will say yes.
> 
> ...



Except he has been working for a long while (2002) way before he got the chance to do things like JW or SW IX such as in short films and documentaries. Your example fails.

You will have to bring links as well to prove he did that because I find hard to believe a movie today can avoid any kind of screenings from the press or even test audiences, but let's say I believe it. So he made a mistake when it came to that and those were not professional, you gonna keep that as a grudge forever and not believe he learned from a mistake such as that? That he can't learn?



Suigetsu said:


> I know I rant a lot and stuff and I know many of you guys hate my guts. But yes I would given you an actual good movie and would had beat titanics balls.
> 
> Cause I had something he never had called passion.



I don't hate you however I'm finding you very obnoxious, especially how you're not able to state any of your points without bashing the guy.

Maybe in another life you did.

That is completely subjective and you know it.



Suigetsu said:


> You are too forgiving and kind. Way more than me. Give him the benefit of the doubt if you want.
> 
> He is a hack with the ego on the air.



Can't ever recall to see you even try to be any of that tbh. Not everyone is interesting in seeing something from the next "auteur" or find the next one among countless directors. I will because I won't judge before seeing something official from IX, plain simple.

And there you go once again with the bashing. You keep proving me right.



Suigetsu said:


> As promised @Sennin of Hardwork
> 
> Snowpiercer
> 
> ...



You pretty much glossed over that entire interview and only quoted and focused just on two big, bolded headlines that stood out from the article in order to state your point. You've said that he is unprofessional but ignore how he talks there that he tried to pushed for animatronics and also talks about the people he worked with. There's a lot more of material in there besides what you brought in quotes.

Honestly I'm ready to just end this discussion because I can tell this will keep going around in circles and we'll just have to agree to disagree. I get it, you hate his guts. Apparently everyone does it too, it's the popular opinion (which doesn't make it the correct one) and it's a cute pat on the back circlejerk.

I just rather wait and see how this unfolds instead of shooting myself on the foot by jumping to conclusions beforehand.


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## Suigetsu (Jun 15, 2017)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Even Rian Johnson fits as a "studio lap dog" to your standards?



I cant speak about ryan tbh because I dont know his stuff.



> I dislike how the fandom is never satisfied with basically anything unless it is TESB, but I'm finding you have your own kind of zeal in this topic too  as well because, likewise, there doesn't seem to be anything that pleases you.


>you dont like nuthin
Lets make something clear, I do not like mediocrity. That is my personal taste. It is not my fault that people have set their bar lower than average these days. But people seem to bitch that I am not doing the same and thus there is such result. They want average and mediocre things to be considered good craftmanship but that's not how it works.

People its unable to understand that If I dont like something it dont mean they cant enjoy it. They percieve me as if I am preventing them from doing it which I am not. That's fucking intolerance to different opinions.



> Except he has been working for a long while (2002) way before he got the chance to do things like JW or SW IX such as in short films and documentaries. Your example fails.


Have you seen his resume as a director? A tv movie, safety not guaranteed and JW. He took more time between movies than James Cameron. And that doesnt change the fact of what I saw on screen. Either he is lazy at movie making, just that bad or he is a rookie that needs to watch more movies and study them.



> You will have to bring links as well to prove he did that because I find hard to believe a movie today can avoid any kind of screenings from the press or even test audiences, but let's say I believe it. So he made a mistake when it came to that and those were not professional, you gonna keep that as a grudge forever and not believe he learned from a mistake such as that? That he can't learn?


[65]

It's not a matter of me believing or not, he is a hack period.  When he makes something original and well crafted AND not act all smug and arrogant about it then he may have a shot at gaining my respect. But I seriously doubt that's ever gonna happen.




> I don't hate you however I'm finding you very obnoxious, especially how you're not able to state any of your points without bashing the guy.



>my points
He is unprofessional
He has no vision, nor creativity nor passion for these kind of movies.
He is a studio yes man.
I showed you proof of this.
And I watched his other stuff.


> Maybe in another life you did.



Thank you!


> That is completely subjective and you know it.


He never had a vision to begin with, the closer thing to it was probably a JW lunchbox.



> Can't ever recall to see you even try to be any of that tbh. Not everyone is interesting in seeing something from the next "auteur" or find the next one among countless directors. I will because I won't judge before seeing something official from IX, plain simple.


Have you seen his other movies that he directed besides Jurassic World? I have clearly researched more in this matter than you have, in order to form an opinion. " so stick away with the - this circle jerk" please.



> And there you go once again with the bashing. You keep proving me right.


and what does this exactly prove or what point does it show? That I bash bad directors For not being the right people for the job?



> You pretty much glossed over that entire interview and only quoted and focused just on two big, bolded headlines that stood out from the article in order to state your point. You've said that he is unprofessional but ignore how he talks there that he tried to pushed for animatronics and also talks about the people he worked with. There's a lot more of material in there besides what you brought in quotes.



Was I suppose to quote everything in there? It was intended for you to read it.

He tried to push animatronics but his lack of preparation ensured that such enterprise failed. Replacing everything with last moment shitty cgi.

Wasting money/ lack of preparation on an over 100 mil usd film. If you dont think that's unprofessional then I dont know what is to you.



> Apparently everyone does it too, it's the popular opinion (which doesn't make it the correct one) and it's a cute pat on the back circlejerk.


This is not a contest nor a competition to see who is right or wrong. So chill down your engines kubric.

Since your only argument is "you just keep bashing him" it has been pointless for you to even argue this from the beggining.

No one is stopping you from enjoying the movie but do not pretend its an amazing and well done flick.



> shooting myself on the foot by jumping to conclusions beforehand.



Do not Jinx it.


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## Jessica (Jun 16, 2017)

So many negative people in here.


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## Mael (Jun 16, 2017)

Jessica said:


> So many negative people in here.


What did you expect?  Rainbows?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Jessica (Jun 16, 2017)

I don't know. I see a lot of optimism elsewhere, I didn't expect so many Debbie Downers on NF.

At least I'm looking forward to it!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skaddix (Jun 16, 2017)

So his movie flopped should he be fired?


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## Suigetsu (Jun 16, 2017)

Jessica said:


> So many negative people in here.


Sorry for not being in the bandwaggon.



Skaddix said:


> So his movie flopped should he be fired?


yes


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 5, 2017)

> *A STATEMENT REGARDING STAR WARS: EPISODE IX*
> 
> Lucasfilm and Colin Trevorrow *have mutually chosen to part ways on Star Wars: Episode IX.* Colin has been a wonderful collaborator throughout the development process but we have all come to the conclusion that our visions for the project differ. We wish Colin the best and will be sharing more information about the film soon.


Link removed


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## Skaddix (Sep 5, 2017)

Is KK incompetent or something? 

I mean forget the lack of orignal ideas in the movies so far and wanting to do spinoffs of characters we have already see instead of fucking KOTOR or something new. 

But really this director record is atrocious.

JJ was Fine. RJ was Fine but beyond that we have had 2 Directors fired before filming started in Trank and Trevrow. One replaced in editing and reshoots in Gareth Edwards. And a pair fired because they didnt want to play ball like Edwards in Lord and Miller. 

Granted I wanted Colin fired but still it does make me question her leadership ability.


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## RAGING BONER (Sep 5, 2017)

Skaddix said:


> Is KK incompetent or something?


she's just a corporate hack who thinks _-diversity lite- _is a substitute for creativity.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 5, 2017)

what is KK ?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Skaddix (Sep 5, 2017)

Weiss said:


> what is KK ?



Kathleen Kennedy once Steven Speilberg's Secretary then his main producer and now the President of Lucasfilms and thus in charge of the Star Wars Movies in the Disney Era.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 9, 2017)

Called it, told you and you didnt belive me, calling me a hater.
Hack trevorrow got BTFO.



> "Trevorrow’s firing may have come more directly as a consequence of being “difficult.”
> 
> “During the making of Jurassic World, he focused a great deal of his creative energies on asserting his opinion,” the executive explains. “But because he had been personally hired by Spielberg, nobody could say, ‘You’re fired.’ Once that film went through the roof and he chose to do Henry, [Trevorrow] was unbearable. He had an egotistical point of view— and he was always asserting that.”
> 
> Link removed"



Also dont forget that his previous film "book of harry" tanked harder than the tank from terminator 2.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 12, 2017)

> *J.J. ABRAMS TO WRITE AND DIRECT STAR WARS: EPISODE IX*
> 
> J.J. Abrams, who launched a new era of _Star Wars_ with _The Force Awakens_ in 2015, is returning to complete the sequel trilogy as writer and director of _Star Wars_: Episode IX. Abrams will co-write the film with Chris Terrio. _Star Wars_: Episode IXwill be produced by Kathleen Kennedy, Michelle Rejwan, Abrams, Bad Robot, and Lucasfilm.
> 
> *“With The Force Awakens, J.J. delivered everything we could have possibly hoped for, and I am so excited that he is coming back to close out this trilogy,”* said Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy.


Because Naruto LITERALLY handed him chakra...


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## Mider T (Sep 12, 2017)

Game time.


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## ~Gesy~ (Sep 12, 2017)

Ehhh..

I would've rather seen a different take with each installment but whatever...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 12, 2017)

New release date.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 13, 2017)

so they called back Chu chu hackams to clean up his own mess? hahaha.


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## Skaddix (Sep 13, 2017)

think like a shareholder 2,000,000,000 Why.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 13, 2017)




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## BlazingInferno (Sep 13, 2017)

This thread still exists??


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## MartialHorror (Sep 13, 2017)

I like J.J Abrams, but I wish they'd continue the tradition of changing directors each time. I think it would've even been cool if they got Spielberg to do it. 

With that said, I'd personally prefer Abrams over Trevorrow. Everyone keeps taking shots at Abrams for him practically remaking Episode 4 with "The Force Awakens", but do you know what? Even if the beats were mostly the same, he did give us plenty of new Star Wars related memories. Trevorrow's "Jurassic World" was even more nostalgia fueled than "The Force Awakens" was, but somehow none of its new material stood out, even though he was working with some pretty absurd ideas.


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## ~Gesy~ (Sep 13, 2017)

Spielberg wouldn't work for me. I don't believe he can capture the essence of the franchise well.

James Cameron would've been cool tho


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## Mider T (Sep 13, 2017)

What a way to end the decade.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 14, 2017)

~Gesy~ said:


> Spielberg wouldn't work for me. I don't believe he can capture the essence of the franchise well.
> 
> James Cameron would've been cool tho



James Cameron is too egotistical to follow someone elses vision, lol. Admittedly, I think Spielberg would've been better for Star Wars back when Lucas wanted him to direct "Return of the Jedi", but I still think he could make a solid film. He wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd prefer him over Abrams right now.

Although honestly, I'm not sure who would be ideal right now. It would be funny if they got George Lucas to do it.


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## TheLivingLegend (Sep 14, 2017)

I'm pretty happy that it's moving to the December date. It has worked wonders for Star Wars two times, because it's a traditonally a month for Awards season movies and light-hearted comedies. But, with this news, it's pretty obvious that Warner Bro's are gonna move Wonder Woman 2 to another date.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 21, 2017)

MartialHorror said:


> James Cameron is too egotistical to follow someone elses vision, lol.


What is Aliens then?
More like he doesnt go for trash cinema. Jimbo is the saviour of cinema, why would he care about second scraps?


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## RAGING BONER (Sep 21, 2017)

i wouldn't be opposed to Cameron taking the helm...the mans' proven he can make a sequel better than the original.

while JJ Binks is all flash (literally sometimes) and no substance.


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## Skaddix (Sep 21, 2017)

All Lens Flare. Plus JJ is good at setting up ideas...he sucks at finishing them with strong close outs.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Feb 11, 2018)




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## Catalyst75 (Feb 11, 2018)

Well, now we know when they will start filming for the movie.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Glued (Feb 11, 2018)

TLJ was released in December.
And they are going to start episode filming this Summer?

Shouldn't they, plan things out more before they start filming?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 11, 2018)

Ben Grimm said:


> TLJ was released in December.
> And they are going to start episode filming this Summer?
> 
> Shouldn't they, plan things out more before they start filming?



They were already planning things out with _The Last Jedi _before _The Force Awakens_ was released in theaters.  It stands to reason that much of the planning for Episode IX had also been done before _The Last Jedi_ hit theaters.


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## RAGING BONER (Feb 12, 2018)

Ben Grimm said:


> Shouldn't they, plan things out more before they start filming?




you would think that...but nope.


Catalyst75 said:


> *They were already planning things out with The Last Jedi before The Force Awakens was released in theaters.*  It stands to reason that much of the planning for Episode IX had also been done before _The Last Jedi_ hit theaters.


what? no. *no*.

Even RJ has said they handed him the reins without so much as a roadmap_basically, "do whatever the fuck you want."

and it shows.


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 12, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> what? no. *no*.
> 
> Even RJ has said they handed him the reins without so much as a roadmap_basically, "do whatever the fuck you want."
> 
> and it shows.



Johnson is the one I am talking about, because he was busy with with writing out and planning _The Last Jedi _before the _Force Awakens_ ever hit theatres_.  _A script for Episode VIII was written by the time of December 2015, and Johnson also had the script and screened footage of _The Force Awakens _to work with, then he took the story in the direction that he felt would be best.

Yes, there wasn't some 10 Commandments-style road-map planned out through omniscient foresight intended to play it safe with what what certain fans wanted, but Johnson did have _a starting point to build off of.  _

Production is when they start filming after concepts and script are planned out, _not when they start planning all those things.  
-------------------------------------------------------------------_
@Ben Grimm The above is a more official answer to your question.  J.J. Abrams was officially brought back on in September last year, so a likely starting point for the script, concept planning, and story-boarding would be between that moment and when filming officially starts in Summer 2018.  
_
_


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## Aeternus (Feb 12, 2018)

Really curious to see what Abrams will do with what RJ left for him.


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## Suigetsu (Feb 12, 2018)

Ben Grimm said:


> TLJ was released in December.
> And they are going to start episode filming this Summer?
> 
> Shouldn't they, plan things out more before they start filming?


Not with Kay KAY and her coven of bitches around.


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## Broleta (Feb 12, 2018)

I'm curious to see if Abrams will 'throw out' some of the concepts introduced by RJ in TLJ, ala TLJ doing so to some of the ideas from TFA.


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## Aeternus (Feb 13, 2018)

Don't know how much he can do though.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Feb 13, 2018)




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## Aeternus (Feb 14, 2018)

Wish they could hire its director too...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Feb 27, 2018)




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## Ghost_of_Gashir (Feb 27, 2018)

Give the films back to George Lucas.


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## Suigetsu (Feb 27, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Although honestly, I'm not sure who would be ideal right now. It would be funny if they got George Lucas to do it.


SW is dead, Disney killed it by placing someone that has no idea how to handle a geek franchise whatsoever and surrounding herself with people of similar mind that are more interested on pushing their political agenda instead of runing a business.
I would have personally have run the business into success as opposed to the trainwreck that they have created, star wars movies where supposed to be events, not marvel crap. And instead of taking the most interesting elements and characters of the EU and distill them into  an actual good and organized storyline they ditched them to make their own wierd fanfiction that doesnt make any sense and who's only porpuse is to be a vessel to project themselves.

However SW fans are addicted to it, they buy into the brand regardless of quality. Lucas friends abandoned him when he needed them "he wanted Ron Howard, Spielberg among others to direct some of the prequels for him but they all refused, but now they are in since disney offers them the bills.


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## BlazingInferno (Feb 27, 2018)

This thread still lingers?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 9, 2018)



Reactions: Like 2


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## Mider T (May 9, 2018)

GIRL POWER!

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Suigetsu (May 10, 2018)

He is not even hidding it anymore.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Optimistic 2


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## Djomla (May 10, 2018)

Star Wars Episode IX - Princess Rey and the Jewel Riders!


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## Suigetsu (May 10, 2018)

@Sennin of Hardwork are you still upset because I called out colin being a hack?



Djomla said:


> Star Wars Episode IX - Princess Rey and the Jewel Riders!


Dont forget that they are also now "throwing a bone" at the fans. Jar jar abrahams is pathetic.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 10, 2018)

Nah. Just think it is silly that you actually believe he meant that. But you do you.


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## Suigetsu (May 10, 2018)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Nah. Just think it is silly that you actually believe he meant that. But you do you.


He clearly is fucking around because he is way past the point of caring. So he is actually meaning it and fucking around at the same time.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 10, 2018)




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## Suigetsu (May 10, 2018)

Funny thing is, he is done with the franchise.


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## MShadows (May 14, 2018)

Wish I could say that I'm excited but I couldn't care less at this point.


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## Suigetsu (May 19, 2018)

MShadows said:


> Wish I could say that I'm excited but I couldn't care less at this point.


Its a dead franchise

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Mider T (May 19, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> Its a dead franchise


>Dead
>One of the highest grossing franchises of all time

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 19, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> Its a dead franchise


where is the dumb rating

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (May 19, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> He is not even hidding it anymore.



Dude, he's making fun of people like you who think sequels you didn't like can ruin your childhood.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Suigetsu (May 19, 2018)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Dude, he's making fun of people like you who think sequels you didn't like can ruin your childhood.


They didnt ruin mychidlhood cause It was never defined by a movie franchise. People that think that are plain stupid.

Also Looking at all what he has said and how he has acted pretty much states he doesnt like nor care about disney starwars.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Suigetsu (May 19, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> where is the dumb rating


Where is the seal button?

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 20, 2018)

Mider T said:


> GIRL POWER!


Yeah, let's fuck up this timeless franchise with 21. century identity politics.


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## Mider T (May 20, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Yeah, let's fuck up this timeless franchise with 21. century identity politics.


Including women in a movie with literally one woman isn't gender identity politics.  That was one of the original complaints about Star Wars.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 20, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Including women in a movie with literally one woman isn't gender identity politics.  That was one of the original complaints about Star Wars.


You celbrating is.

Fuck those complaints, Star Wars was the best brand evah till recently.


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## Mider T (May 20, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> celbrating


?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 20, 2018)

Mider T said:


> ?


Yeah, you celebrating or  pretend celebrating.


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## Mider T (May 20, 2018)

Me celebrating is what?


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 20, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Star Wars was the best brand evah till recently.


MCU surpassed SW even before TLJ came out

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 20, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> MCU surpassed SW even before TLJ came out


In what way? MCU had the benefitt of not being mismanaged by Lucas.


Mider T said:


> Me celebrating is what?


You know what.


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## Suigetsu (May 20, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Yeah, you celebrating or  pretend celebrating.


He does that just to spam posts.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 20, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> He does that just to spam posts.


Well, he has an avatar. I have no idea why he is doing it.


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## Suigetsu (May 20, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Well, he has an avatar. I have no idea why he is doing it.


He wants to reach over 100k posts. Most folks around here are obsessed with trophies and rep power.


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## Garcher (May 21, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> MCU surpassed SW even before TLJ came out


well, The Force Awakens and the other movie were already garbage

It's perplexing that a series of Superhero movies which would probably work as standalone movies are better planned than Star Wars.


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## Suigetsu (May 21, 2018)

GARcher said:


> well, The Force Awakens and the other movie were already garbage
> 
> It's perplexing that a series of Superhero movies which would probably work as standalone movies are better planned than Star Wars.


That’s what happens when you hire people that have absolutely no clue on what they are doing and are dead set on centering on gender politics. Meanwhile the marvel movies are done by grown up fanboys that listen to the fans and actually know what they are doing.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 21, 2018)

Basically Kevin Feige is a god of planning


Best franchise director on the planet


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 21, 2018)

Russos are gods too


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (May 21, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> He wants to reach over 100k posts. Most folks around here are obsessed with trophies and rep power.



Kinda disgusting. I was way ahead of him in posts until recently.


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## Suigetsu (May 21, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Russos are gods too


I find them to be pretty average but far better than rest of mediocre directors that currently plague the new generation. 

Kevin feige is alright, but lets not pretend capeshit movies are that good to begin with.

Reactions: Old 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 21, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> I find them to be pretty average but far better than rest of mediocre directors that currently plague the new generation.
> 
> Kevin feige is alright, but lets not pretend capeshit movies are that good to begin with.


Shush,  Soygetsu

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Suigetsu (May 21, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Shush,  Soygetsu


What is soygetsu even supposed to be fleabag?
It basically spells “ I am getsu” in spanish.

Reactions: Old 1 | Dislike 1


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## MartialHorror (May 21, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> What is soygetsu even supposed to be fleabag?
> It basically spells “ I am getsu” in spanish.



Maybe he also got it from 4Chan or Tumbler, since that apparently dictates the English language these days.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 22, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Shush,  Soygetsu


He is right.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 22, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> He is right.


Nope

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 22, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Nope


Being part of the MCU is an automatic constraint.


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## MartialHorror (May 22, 2018)

It kind of is. I consider Phase 1 of the MCU to be the weakest overall, but I do like how all of those movies have different aesthetics and tones. These days, the majority of them can't deviate from the others in those ways because it disrupts the illusion of a 'shared universe'. 

With that said, I enjoy the majority of them and think Kevin Feig is the best of the...er...franchise producers? Don't know what to refer to those guys. Kennedy- like the new Star Wars movies or not- keeps running or cause production troubles. Whoever was in charge of the DCU is probably the worst. But the MCU has been mostly devoid of behind-the-scenes drama and considering how many there are, their output has been consistently solid. I'm still waiting for that big fuck up that will derail the saga, lol.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 22, 2018)

phase 3 is godlike


perfect


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## Suigetsu (May 22, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Maybe he also got it from 4Chan or Tumbler, since that apparently dictates the English language these days.


Spanish is my first language.


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## MartialHorror (May 22, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> Spanish is my first language.



I was referring to how they mutate established terms or phrases, like 'Social Justice Warrior'. I am assuming when you say 'SJW', you're not abbreviating Spanish words...although that would be pretty funny.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 22, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> phase 3 is godlike
> 
> 
> perfect


Do you even cinema bro?


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 22, 2018)

I hope  MCU never ends


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## MartialHorror (May 22, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I hope  MCU never ends



Are there really that many Marvel Superheroes to sustain 'never ends'?


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## Suigetsu (May 22, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Do you even cinema bro?


Are you seriously even asking this?

Reactions: Old 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 22, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I hope  MCU never ends


Get RDJ's semen out of your hair and think about cinema.

Reactions: Old 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 22, 2018)

who let these guys in the section


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## Suigetsu (May 22, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> who let these guys in the section


I have always been here. But now that you are exiled from the DB one you come here to continue your spam. Keep it up, I wonder if you will get rate sealed.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## ATastyMuffin (May 23, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> It kind of is. I consider Phase 1 of the MCU to be the weakest overall, but I do like how all of those movies have different aesthetics and tones. These days, the majority of them can't deviate from the others in those ways because it disrupts the illusion of a 'shared universe'.
> 
> With that said, I enjoy the majority of them and think Kevin Feig is the best of the...er...franchise producers? Don't know what to refer to those guys. Kennedy- like the new Star Wars movies or not- keeps running or cause production troubles. Whoever was in charge of the DCU is probably the worst. But the MCU has been mostly devoid of behind-the-scenes drama and considering how many there are, their output has been consistently solid. I'm still waiting for that big fuck up that will derail the saga, lol.



Kennedy has way more legendary a legacy than Feige as a producer, it's not even debatable. She's made a veritable smorgasbord of classics and renowned films.

Granted, I'm not a HUGE fan of what she's doing with Star Wars given I disliked Rogue One, think Solo looks ass and Lando/Obi-Wan spinoffs are pointless exercises in fleshing out a tired era of the universe, but she's still easily one of the greatest out of major ones.

Feige will need another decade or two or so to actually compare. And MCU schlock isn't really helping his case.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 23, 2018)

MCU is already the greatest movie franchise and shared film universe in mankind history


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## ~Gesy~ (May 23, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Are there really that many Marvel Superheroes to sustain 'never ends'?


 


MartialHorror said:


> but I do like how all of those movies have different aesthetics and tones. These days, the majority of them can't deviate from the others in those ways


Disagree.  I think each property still use different aesthetics and tones..some even being of completely different genres


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (May 23, 2018)

What we need is 9 more The Fast and the Furious movies.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 23, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> MCU is already the greatest movie franchise and shared film universe in mankind history


I take the Yakuza Papers and Godfather over that.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Skaddix (May 23, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> I take the Yakuza Papers and Godfather over that.



Depends on how you define Great. Certainly no Franchise has sustained such success across so many movies and years.

How many Godfather movies are there (note the answer is not 3)?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 23, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> Depends on how you define Great. Certainly no Franchise has sustained such success across so many movies and years.
> 
> How many Godfather movies are there (note the answer is not 3)?


I define it by quality, not enjoyment.


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## Suigetsu (May 23, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> I define it by quality, not enjoyment.


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## MartialHorror (May 23, 2018)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Kennedy has way more legendary a legacy than Feige as a producer, it's not even debatable. She's made a veritable smorgasbord of classics and renowned films.
> 
> Granted, I'm not a HUGE fan of what she's doing with Star Wars given I disliked Rogue One, think Solo looks ass and Lando/Obi-Wan spinoffs are pointless exercises in fleshing out a tired era of the universe, but she's still easily one of the greatest out of major ones.
> 
> Feige will need another decade or two or so to actually compare. And MCU schlock isn't really helping his case.



You're right. I didn't realize how long she has been in the business and how many great movies she's done. But as far as I can tell, this is the first time she was put in charge of a franchise and the way she's running things is...questionable. I've yet to dislike any of the new Star Wars films, although I haven't seen "Solo", so I'm not opposed to the direction she's taking the franchise at this time, but there's no denying that the productions have been a lot more hectic than they probably needed to be. 

You might say "MCU schlock", but his franchise hasn't let down its fanbase yet and the movies have been crazy successful. The majority of them since he took over haven't dealt with difficult productions either. Obviously not everyone will like them and solid cases have been built around them being mediocre, but the same cases have been made against "Star Wars" from the beginning. Genre flicks will always get those kinds of reactions out of people.


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## Skaddix (May 23, 2018)

Kennedy is nothing special who among us could not make a career riding classic Spielberg's coattails. 

Feige built a pop culture and money making empire with no X-men or Spider-man. 

KK meanwhile bungled away Star Wars through incompetence and personal bias.


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## MartialHorror (May 23, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> Kennedy is nothing special who among us could not make a career riding classic Spielberg's coattails.
> 
> Feige built a pop culture and money making empire with no X-men or Spider-man.
> 
> KK meanwhile bungled away Star Wars through incompetence and personal bias.



It's always hard to judge how good or bad a producer is, because most of their job is to oversee the business side of a film production. If you're going to say Kennedy is a bad producer, you'd probably have to say all producers are worthless. But do you really think Spielberg was writing out filming schedules, budgeting scenes, etc? So while you can certainly dismiss Kennedy as a company president and can dismiss her vision of Star Wars, unless you have some examples, you're showing your own bias by dismissing her entire career.


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## Skaddix (May 23, 2018)

Spielberg was Spielberg before Kennedy was anything. She was just a lowly secretary that he plucked up and made assistant and then producer. So sure did KK do something yeah probably but who deserves most of the credit yeah I am going with Spielberg. Point being the problem is KK is not a creative force and to helm something like Star Wars you need a creative vision not bean counter.


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (May 23, 2018)

KK is Tim Cook with a vagina.


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## MartialHorror (May 23, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> Spielberg was Spielberg before Kennedy was anything. She was just a lowly secretary that he plucked up and made assistant and then producer. So sure did KK do something yeah probably but who deserves most of the credit yeah I am going with Spielberg. Point being the problem is KK is not a creative force and to helm something like Star Wars you need a creative vision not bean counter.



I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on Star Wars, but you don't seem to realize what a producer is and if she wasn't competent in that function, why would he 'pluck her up'? Or do you have any evidence that she was bad at her job?

Remember, she was primarily known as a Producer before she was made President of Lucasfilms and there is a difference between the two. So if she failed at running Star Wars, that doesn't negate everything she did before she was put in charge of Star Wars. Unless you have any proof to the contrary, you're just letting your hatred of the new Star Wars flicks dictate the entirety of your post...


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## ATastyMuffin (May 23, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> Kennedy is nothing special who among us could not make a career riding classic Spielberg's coattails.
> 
> Feige built a pop culture and money making empire with no X-men or Spider-man.
> 
> KK meanwhile bungled away Star Wars through incompetence and personal bias.





Skaddix said:


> Spielberg was Spielberg before Kennedy was anything. She was just a lowly secretary that he plucked up and made assistant and then producer. So sure did KK do something yeah probably but who deserves most of the credit yeah I am going with Spielberg. Point being the problem is KK is not a creative force and to helm something like Star Wars you need a creative vision not bean counter.



I'm a fan of the MCU and all but...Schindler's List, Back to the Future I-III, The Goonies, Jurassic Park, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Empire of the Sun - like every single one of these save the BTTF sequels are guaranteed to be remembered more than anything Feige has or likely will ever do. You can maybe point to at most two or three MCU flicks that'll be recalled as more than above-average blockbusters: Black Panther, The Avengers, and _maybe _Winter Soldier but even that's a stretch.

Like I don't understand how someone's take on her amazing career is 'nuh uh she did nothing she's garbage' with that many accolades to her name. It's even kind of insulting to Spielberg to suggest he kept bringing on someone who was supposedly 'useless', to produce almost every single one of his films. Were you _that _hurt by the direction she took with Star Wars that you gotta peddle this revisionist history instead? Who gives a fuck lmao, it's Star Wars. It was bungled since The Phantom Menace.



MartialHorror said:


> Remember, she was primarily known as a Producer before she was made President of Lucasfilms and there is a difference between the two. So if she failed at running Star Wars, that doesn't negate everything she did before she was put in charge of Star Wars. Unless you have any proof to the contrary, you're just letting your hatred of the new Star Wars flicks dictate the entirety of your post...



His proof to the contrary is that she messed up Star Wars therefore there was no way she could have done anything good ever in her career previously.


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## Skaddix (May 23, 2018)

She is not a creative force is my main point she is a bean counter.


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## MartialHorror (May 23, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> She is not a creative force is my main point she is a bean counter.



Okay, here is another question I have for you. All reports point to Rian Johnson throwing out the original plan for Episode 8, suggesting that like it or not, he is responsible for "The Last Jedi". So did she ruin Star Wars? Or did he? I guess I'm assuming that you're one of those "TLJ" haters and I suppose if you dislike all of them, my question is redundant. 

This is probably why it would've been better...or at least easier...if they got a director to helm the direction of the franchise. It seems like Kennedy wants to give the filmmakers a significant amount of creative control, only to have it backfire on her. She apparently felt "Rogue One" was too dark so rescinded that control from Gareth Edwards. She fired the original directors of the Han Solo movie. She let Rian Johnson do what he wanted and this lead to the most controversial Star Wars movie to date. 

But in contrast, you have George Lucas whose 'creative vision' had already been compromised by his desire to make money. They became about selling toys, whereas at least Kennedy- misguided, incompetent or not- seems like she's kind of trying to let the filmmakers tell the stories they want to tell. I'm not going to say it's about 'the art', but for all the shit people say about that Casino scene in TLJ, was it any worse than the pod racing? Which purely existed to sell a video game?


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## Skaddix (May 23, 2018)

Better to Have a Vision and Be Corrupted by Money then have no Vision at all. 

RJ is a no name director. KK is in charge of LF the buck stops with her. Any decision he made she approved or should have approved since that is her fucking job. So yeah it was RJ idea but KK should have never fucking said yes in the first place. 

There is time and place for creative freedom that be the One Off Solo Movies. A trilogy needs a fucking plan that is stuck to.


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## MartialHorror (May 23, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> Better to Have a Vision and Be Corrupted by Money then have no Vision at all.
> 
> RJ is a no name director. KK is in charge of LF the buck stops with her. Any decision he made she approved or should have approved since that is her fucking job. So yeah it was RJ idea but KK should have never fucking said yes in the first place.
> 
> There is time and place for creative freedom that be the One Off Solo Movies. A trilogy needs a fucking plan that is stuck to.



I actually agree with this...even as someone who really liked "TLJ". It's obvious that they're kind of making up shit as they're going along and Kennedy- for all of her assumed strengths- is probably not the best person for this job, but I would take all of these new Star Wars flicks over "The Phantom Menace" or Special Editions any day. 

If I ever seem snappy in regards to Lucas, it's only because of the Special Editions. To me, those damage the Star Wars legacy far more than anything Kennedy can ever do. You don't have to watch her movies any more than I have to watch the prequels, but it's hard to watch the OT in a good format without coming across the Special Editions.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 24, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


>


What is anybody gonna do about it?


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## Suigetsu (May 24, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> What is anybody gonna do about it?


Folks these days look love mediocrity. So I doubt they will do much.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 24, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> Folks these days look love mediocrity.


Look at some of the franchises from the 30s, 40s and 50s.


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## Mider T (May 24, 2018)

What's wrong with pod racing?

Reactions: Old 1


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## Suigetsu (May 27, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Look at some of the franchises from the 30s, 40s and 50s.


At least back then they gave it all.


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## Suigetsu (May 27, 2018)

Mider T said:


> What's wrong with pod racing?


It gets you arrested, just ask loyd.


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## Catalyst75 (May 28, 2018)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Like I don't understand how someone's take on her amazing career is 'nuh uh she did nothing she's garbage' with that many accolades to her name. It's even kind of insulting to Spielberg to suggest he kept bringing on someone who was supposedly 'useless', to produce almost every single one of his films. Were you _that _hurt by the direction she took with Star Wars that you gotta peddle this revisionist history instead?



Same thing happened after the Prequel Trilogy, when "fans" started dismissing Lucas himself as just an "ideas man" because of how those films turned out.  With the Sequel Trilogy, it has become revising a person's entire career to make it seem like they've always been bad because they want to be right about how much they dislike something, while everyone else is wrong.

It is probably best you don't know how much that mindset applies to other places on this forum, where they take it one step further with "everyone else is wrong and deserving of insult", along with all the derogatory insults towards the thing or people they hate.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 28, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Same thing happened after the Prequel Trilogy, when "fans" started dismissing Lucas himself as just an "ideas man" because of how those films turned out.  With the Sequel Trilogy, it has become revising a person's entire career to make it seem like they've always been bad because they want to be right about how much they dislike something, while everyone else is wrong.
> 
> It is probably best you don't know how much that mindset applies to other places on this forum, where they take it one step further with "everyone else is wrong and deserving of insult", along with all the derogatory insults towards the thing or people they hate.


Based on my experience with you in the Cafe you are just an another asshole with no legs to stand on.

This is paradise compared to the Cafe.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Catalyst75 (May 28, 2018)

- white noise static -  



Mider T said:


> What's wrong with pod racing?



I imagine it has to do with how the necessity of pod-racing in the Phantom Menace caused the film's plot to come to a grinding halt.  I recall seeing somewhere that Episode I spent _*fifty minutes *_on Tatooine, with a good chunk of those 50 minutes focusing on establishing Anakin as a super-special Chosen One, and then on the Pod Race that became a mandatory requirement to get the money needed to buy new parts for their ship.

More time than people complain about Finn and Rose spending on Canto Bight.


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## dr_shadow (May 28, 2018)

Guess now that I've seen Solo I need to subscribe to this thread.



MartialHorror said:


> Are there really that many Marvel Superheroes to sustain 'never ends'?



Read the other day that all Marvel comics released since their founding (as Timely Comics) in 1939 add up to something like *40,000 issues*.

That's a lot of plot to make movies out of.


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## Glued (May 28, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Are there really that many Marvel Superheroes to sustain 'never ends'?



Not all superheroes were able to make a splash. I seriously doubt Alpha Flight (Canada's Superhero team) will get their own movie.



mr_shadow said:


> Guess now that I've seen Solo I need to subscribe to this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I doubt Son of Satan or Brother Voodoo will get their own movies?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Aeternus (May 28, 2018)

While I agree that not all of Marvel's heroes can make a splash and get their own successful movies, there are still enough that could do it. And don't forget that Marvel's brand power. If it can make something like Ant-Man successful enough for example, then it could do it to other heroes as well.


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## Suigetsu (May 28, 2018)

Mider T said:


> >Dead
> >One of the highest grossing franchises of all time


Not under disney's hands.
Their merchandise is rotting in the shelves, and they have yet to even make an actual profit from the cost that was the purchase.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Mider T (May 29, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> Not under disney's hands.
> Their merchandise is rotting in the shelves, and they have yet to even make an actual profit from the cost that was the purchase.


All of this is a complete lie

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 29, 2018)

Mider T said:


> All of this is a complete lie


Yup


Fake news Soygetsu


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (May 29, 2018)

Seiko said:


> are you kidding... she is the best thing that ever happened to star wars



Second best. Everything else is in a tie for first.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 29, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> - white noise static -


That is what a dude who cannot defend his opinion is.


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## Catalyst75 (May 29, 2018)

- white static noise -

There is nothing to say to a serial shit-poster and wannabe sophist who has nothing genuine to say himself.  Anyone in the Cafe knows that about you.



Ben Grimm said:


> Not all superheroes were able to make a splash. I seriously doubt Alpha Flight (Canada's Superhero team) will get their own movie.



It would be neat to see them get their own movie, however. Just as I heard Guardians of the Galaxy did for its comic book counterparts, an Alpha Flight movie would likely invigorate interest in the Alpha Flight comics.

It is a potential win-win scenario for Marvel to generate interest in less well-known groups, if they decide to make an Alpha Flight movie and it is successful.


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## Suigetsu (May 29, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Yup
> 
> 
> Fake news Soygetsu


Is it that hard to handle the truth for you? ?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Suigetsu (May 29, 2018)

Mider T said:


> All of this is a complete lie


I got sources, you only got bananas.


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## Suigetsu (May 29, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> That is what a dude who cannot defend his opinion is.


 
Roasted!


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 29, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> - white static noise -
> 
> There is nothing to say to a serial shit-poster and wannabe sophist who has nothing genuine to say himself.  Anyone in the Cafe knows that about you.



You mean everyone in your bitchass ideological clique?

Shut your hive minding politically correct mouth. You are championning the poor while looking for manners and racetalk ques from the ivy League.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## MartialHorror (May 29, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> Not under disney's hands.
> Their merchandise is rotting in the shelves, and they have yet to even make an actual profit from the cost that was the purchase.



I personally doubt they haven't made their money back, but just from the movies alone, even Disney would not have expected to make their money back at this point. If we go by the 'cinema gets 50%' rule, every single new Star Wars flick would have to earn 2 billion to cover the initial purchase. Even before "Rogue One" came out, they were saying they weren't expecting "Rogue One" to come close to "The Force Awakens" in BO gross. Even "The Last Jedi" wasn't projected to gross 2 billion, much less "Solo". 

Another reason why Star Wars is probably a dying brand is that who else could've done it justice? Universal, Marvel and Eon are the only studios I can think of with thriving franchises at the moment. One is Disney owned and the other only does James Bond flicks. This leaves Universal, who are reaping the profits of "Fast and the Furious", but they also did the "Jaws" franchise. 

They thought this was an adequate ending to a sequel to the movie that started the Summer Blockbuster.


So if Disney can't make Star Wars work, the brand is f@cked...and yeah, Disney is definitely dropping the ball here. It would've rotted just as much, if not more, under the guidance of George Lucas though. I often wonder what would've happened if Lucas saw through his original plan of helming Episode 7 himself and then selling the franchise...Everything would probably be different, as I doubt Ford would come back, which might mean Hamill wouldn't either (assuming they weren't making up reasons as to why they joined).


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 29, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> I personally doubt they haven't made their money back, but just from the movies alone, even Disney would not have expected to make their money back at this point. If we go by the 'cinema gets 50%' rule, every single new Star Wars flick would have to earn 2 billion to cover the initial purchase. Even before "Rogue One" came out, they were saying they weren't expecting "Rogue One" to come close to "The Force Awakens" in BO gross. Even "The Last Jedi" wasn't projected to gross 2 billion, much less "Solo".
> 
> Another reason why Star Wars is probably a dying brand is that who else could've done it justice? Universal, Marvel and Eon are the only studios I can think of with thriving franchises at the moment. One is Disney owned and the other only does James Bond flicks. This leaves Universal, who are reaping the profits of "Fast and the Furious", but they also did the "Jaws" franchise.
> 
> ...


Anyone willing to take a bit of a risk and who does want to deconstruct the base concepts that make it work.

It's already a brand, it does not have to be people who are running brands that are a big success at this moment.


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## MartialHorror (May 29, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Anyone willing to take a bit of a risk and who does want to deconstruct the base concepts that make it work.
> 
> It's already a brand, it does not have to be people who are running brands that are a big success at this moment.



But these movies would cost too much money for it not to be a big studio, who would probably play it as safely as possible...which Disney kind of did anyway with "TFA". Furthermore, would those base concepts still work in the cinema of today? Maybe "John Carter" is a flawed example, but the source was revolutionary in its day, but was emulated, imitated and influential enough that by the time it got a film adaptation, most of its ideas were old fashioned. Star Wars is kind of the same way these days. 

I mean, Lucas literally used the Heroes Journey as a guideline for the story. Plus..."The Force Awakens" kind of already did that.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 29, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> But these movies would cost too much money for it not to be a big studio, who would probably play it as safely as possible...which Disney kind of did anyway with "TFA". Furthermore, would those base concepts still work in the cinema of today? Maybe "John Carter" is a flawed example, but the source was revolutionary in its day, but was emulated, imitated and influential enough that by the time it got a film adaptation, most of its ideas were old fashioned. Star Wars is kind of the same way these days.
> 
> I mean, Lucas literally used the Heroes Journey as a guideline for the story. Plus..."The Force Awakens" kind of already did that.


I am sure a bank would be willing to take the risk and lend the money.

What do you mean the base concept won't work? That's the MCU's base concept, that one is jusre quippy.

And if the Force Awakens made that much how much more an actually interesting movie could make...


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## MartialHorror (May 29, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> I am sure a bank would be willing to take the risk and lend the money.
> 
> What do you mean the base concept won't work? That's the MCU's base concept, that one is jusre quippy.
> 
> And if the Force Awakens made that much how much more an actually interesting movie could make...



Personally, I think audiences want safe and inoffensive more than 'interesting and risk taking'. Look at the top grossing movies of all time. "Avatar" was CGI "Dances with Wolves". Hell, look at the success of "Transformers" and "Fast and the Furious" only started raking in the big bucks when they dumbed itself down. "Mission Impossible" (forgot about this franchise) also grew more popular when any semblance of story was replaced by crazy, marketable stunts. So if "The Force Awakens" took more risks, it's gross wouldn't be as high. 

Maybe a bank would loan the movie, but it's not that simple. "Empire Strikes Back" nearly cleaned Lucas out, from what I remember, as he wasn't used to being in charge of productions and was taken advantage of being of it. One of the advantages of a studio system is that they're a safety net and will put in the right people to (usually) keep this from happening. So you need the right amount of experience...and experience usually teaches us to play it safe when our own livelihoods are on the line. 

Also, why would Lucas sell the rights to someone who would have to go to a bank for a loan? That's a disaster in itself.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 29, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Personally, I think audiences want safe and inoffensive more than 'interesting and risk taking'. Look at the top grossing movies of all time. "Avatar" was CGI "Dances with Wolves". Hell, look at the success of "Transformers" and "Fast and the Furious" only started raking in the big bucks when they dumbed itself down. "Mission Impossible" (forgot about this franchise) also grew more popular when any semblance of story was replaced by crazy, marketable stunts. So if "The Force Awakens" took more risks, it's gross wouldn't be as high.
> 
> Maybe a bank would loan the movie, but it's not that simple. "Empire Strikes Back" nearly cleaned Lucas out, from what I remember, as he wasn't used to being in charge of productions and was taken advantage of being of it. One of the advantages of a studio system is that they're a safety net and will put in the right people to (usually) keep this from happening. So you need the right amount of experience...and experience usually teaches us to play it safe when our own livelihoods are on the line.
> 
> Also, why would Lucas sell the rights to someone who would have to go to a bank for a loan? That's a disaster in itself.


Risk compared to what they did. I specified that i was not talking about a lot of risk.

Blockbusers of that scale were made differently in those days. It was a fuckign remake that aged badly.

I would trust Joey from the fucking street if he hires a good accountant over fucking Disney at this point.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 29, 2018)

Ben Grimm said:


> I doubt Son of Satan or Brother Voodoo will get their own movies?


Why not?


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## Glued (May 29, 2018)

~Gesy~ said:


> Why not?



Son of Satan, think long about the Satan part.

Brother Voodoo also has religious motiffs as well. There is a reason the Jamaican accented Trolls were not in the Warcraft Movie. 

You can get away with Thor because only a few Astarin believers exist today.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 29, 2018)

Ben Grimm said:


> Son of Satan, think long about the Satan part.
> 
> Brother Voodoo also has religious motiffs as well. There is a reason the Jamaican accented Trolls were not in the Warcraft Movie.
> 
> You can get away with Thor because only a few Astarin believers exist today.


Lol that's not a big deal. I see similar characters on screen all the time.

I can see them having Netflix specials rather than movies though.


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## RAGING BONER (Jun 4, 2018)

Jumanji was legit better than TLJ in every way

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Lucaniel (Jun 4, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Personally, I think audiences want safe and inoffensive more than 'interesting and risk taking'. Look at the top grossing movies of all time. "Avatar" was CGI "Dances with Wolves". Hell, look at the success of "Transformers" and "Fast and the Furious" only started raking in the big bucks when they dumbed itself down. "Mission Impossible" (forgot about this franchise) also grew more popular when any semblance of story was replaced by crazy, marketable stunts. So if "The Force Awakens" took more risks, it's gross wouldn't be as high.
> 
> Maybe a bank would loan the movie, but it's not that simple. "Empire Strikes Back" nearly cleaned Lucas out, from what I remember, as he wasn't used to being in charge of productions and was taken advantage of being of it. One of the advantages of a studio system is that they're a safety net and will put in the right people to (usually) keep this from happening. So you need the right amount of experience...and experience usually teaches us to play it safe when our own livelihoods are on the line.
> 
> Also, why would Lucas sell the rights to someone who would have to go to a bank for a loan? That's a disaster in itself.


you can't be sure what audiences want in the current context because what they're offered is fairly limited


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 4, 2018)

cant wait for the conclusion of Reylos story


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## Fang (Jun 4, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> Jumanji was legit better than TLJ in every way



Lmao

Speaking of which, Hayden Christensen starred in a movie with Nicolas Cage last year or the year before it on netflix where he went around Deus Volting muslims and Chinese people and that felt more Star Wars than TLJ did. And this low budget romp was better directed too. It was actually legit good.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 4, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> cant wait for the conclusion of Reylos story


Kylo is going to be ass raped to death by Rey with a strapon.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Lewd 1


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 4, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Personally, I think audiences want safe and inoffensive more than 'interesting and risk taking'.


Deadpool says otherwise. Audiences don't want safe. They want consistency with risk taking.
You don't have to kill everything from the past to take risks. (Which by the way is a terrible idea)

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## MartialHorror (Jun 4, 2018)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Deadpool says otherwise. Audiences don't want safe. They want consistency with risk taking.
> You don't have to kill everything from the past to take risks. (Which by the way is a terrible idea)



Flawed comparison. Few people knew who "Deadpool" was outside of comic book fans. "Star Wars" is like the biggest franchise of all time. Just as people expected more of the same with "Deadpool 2", they ESPECIALLY will expect more of the same with "Star Wars". A better example for your argument would be "Logan", as that took risks despite being part of an established franchise. But even that doesn't entirely work, because "X-Men" fans are different than "Star Wars" fans.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 4, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Flawed comparison. Few people knew who "Deadpool" was outside of comic book fans. "Star Wars" is like the biggest franchise of all time. Just as people expected more of the same with "Deadpool 2", they ESPECIALLY will expect more of the same with "Star Wars". A better example for your argument would be "Logan", as that took risks despite being part of an established franchise. But even that doesn't entirely work, because "X-Men" fans are different than "Star Wars" fans.


Star Wars fans love KOTOR.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MartialHorror (Jun 4, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Star Wars fans love KOTOR.



That's a video game series, right? Different medium and if it's a video game, Im sure most grew up on them. 

That in itself kind of defines Star Wars in a nutshell. When the movies were first released, they will mostly well liked, but it was the younger generation who built them up into classics. I'm not saying that Star Wars fans hate everything. A lot of it is just what they were exposed to at the right time. Sometimes this sounds harsher than I intend of it. While I think the prequels are garbage, I will admit that one of my big gripes about "The Phantom Menace" is that it doesn't feel like Star Wars to me, even though this was most certainly intentional as each subsequent prequel would gradually adopt an aesthetic that was more akin to the setting I recognized. But even though my brain acknowledges the reasons Lucas did this, my heart rejects it all the same. So it's not like I consider myself above any of this. I grew up on the saga too.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 5, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> That's a video game series, right? Different medium and if it's a video game, Im sure most grew up on them.
> 
> That in itself kind of defines Star Wars in a nutshell. When the movies were first released, they will mostly well liked, but it was the younger generation who built them up into classics. I'm not saying that Star Wars fans hate everything. A lot of it is just what they were exposed to at the right time. Sometimes this sounds harsher than I intend of it. While I think the prequels are garbage, I will admit that one of my big gripes about "The Phantom Menace" is that it doesn't feel like Star Wars to me, even though this was most certainly intentional as each subsequent prequel would gradually adopt an aesthetic that was more akin to the setting I recognized. But even though my brain acknowledges the reasons Lucas did this, my heart rejects it all the same. So it's not like I consider myself above any of this. I grew up on the saga too.



Bottom line Star Wars fans are fairly open minded.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## MartialHorror (Jun 5, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Bottom line Star Wars fans are fairly open minded.



No, not really. We showed that we didn't want any tampering with the established formula when Lucas tried to introduce Midichlorians or whatever they're called. The fandom, at that moment, decided they knew what was best for Star Wars over the actual creator. Now if he had introduced the concept in "Return of the Jedi", people would've been fine with it, as the generation who would ultimately devour and spit out "TPM" would've grown up with that concept too.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 5, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Star Wars fans
> 
> open minded.


that hilarious

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 5, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> No, not really. We showed that we didn't want any tampering with the established formula when Lucas tried to introduce Midichlorians or whatever they're called. The fandom, at that moment, decided they knew what was best for Star Wars over the actual creator. Now if he had introduced the concept in "Return of the Jedi", people would've been fine with it, as the generation who would ultimately devour and spit out "TPM" would've grown up with that concept too.


Well they were right. They embraced KOTOR which did that stuff right. 

They would not had been completely fine with it, the Ewoks are still stupid.

Midicholrians was a minor annoying technicality compared to many other problems.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 5, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> that hilarious


It's a very conventional take.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 5, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Bottom line Star Wars fans are fairly open minded.



The reaction to a woman and a black man being leads in TFA when it was first announced was _not_ pretty. Open-minded is the last thing I'd consider Star Wars fans.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 5, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Well they were right. They embraced KOTOR which did that stuff right.
> 
> They would not had been completely fine with it, the Ewoks are still stupid.
> 
> Midicholrians was a minor annoying technicality compared to many other problems.



THe midichlorians were just an example and quite frankly, kids liked the Ewoks at the time. In fact, the initial reviews didn't make a big deal out of the Ewoks. We only started turning on them once we grew up...and even then, Jar Jar (and maybe the Porgs) sort of redeemed them in a lot of peoples eyes...

And who is right or wrong is purely in the eyes of the individual. I think the midichlorians would've worked fine if they made a point that even the Jedi don't completely understand the force and have their own interpretations, some being more scientific (Qui Gon), others being more spiritual (Obi Wan). As it is though, it just seems like Lucas changed his mind, perhaps reflecting his own continuously changing beliefs on religion. But he is the writer and he took the risk, which didn't pay off. What risks would be accepted by the fandom? We don't know until the risk is taken and we judge it as either a success or a failure. Star Wars is more than a series of movies, books and games to its fandom, at this point it's practically a cult. One false move and BLASPHEMY.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 5, 2018)

ATastyMuffin said:


> The reaction to a woman and a black man being leads in TFA when it was first announced was _not_ pretty. Open-minded is the last thing I'd consider Star Wars fans.


Quantify that for me don't just post some far left clickbait site nonsense.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## MartialHorror (Jun 5, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Quantify that for me don't just post some far left clickbait site nonsense.



This is what I mean when I say you're more interested in the politics than Star Wars itself.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 5, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Kylo is going to be ass raped_* to death*_ by Rey with a strapon.



On the contrary. From what the movies have shown, he would love that.

Hell, at the rate the sjw scripting is progressing, him being dominated by the strong female Rey might be how he finally sees the light.
Add a scene of Finn looking on with envy, while Rose is hugging him.
The end.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 5, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> This is what I mean when I say you're more interested in the politics than Star Wars itself.


If you politicize Star Wars in a partisan fashion we are gonne have a digital schlong measuring contest. End of story.

Why is it unreasonable for me to ask for some clarity instead of accepting the narrative?




MartialHorror said:


> THe midichlorians were just an example and quite frankly, kids liked the Ewoks at the time. In fact, the initial reviews didn't make a big deal out of the Ewoks. We only started turning on them once we grew up...and even then, Jar Jar (and maybe the Porgs) sort of redeemed them in a lot of peoples eyes...
> 
> And who is right or wrong is purely in the eyes of the individual. I think the midichlorians would've worked fine if they made a point that even the Jedi don't completely understand the force and have their own interpretations, some being more scientific (Qui Gon), others being more spiritual (Obi Wan). As it is though, it just seems like Lucas changed his mind, perhaps reflecting his own continuously changing beliefs on religion. But he is the writer and he took the risk, which didn't pay off. What risks would be accepted by the fandom? We don't know until the risk is taken and we judge it as either a success or a failure. Star Wars is more than a series of movies, books and games to its fandom, at this point it's practically a cult. One false move and BLASPHEMY.



Bottom line SW is all ages and Ewoks got less popular.

Video games are the best guide because their budgets. SW fans are open minded.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 5, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> If you politicize Star Wars in a partisan fashion we are gonne have a digital schlong measuring contest. End of story.
> 
> Why is it unreasonable for me to ask for some clarity instead of accepting the narrative?
> 
> ...



It's just very easy to dismiss something as leftist media bullshit when it doesn't coincide with your own opinions. Keep in mind that the 'racist Star Wars fans' allegations came out BEFORE "The Force Awakens" was experiencing any real backlash. The movie wasn't even out yet and I think all they had was the teaser trailer. 

You insist that 'SW fans are open minded', but you keep ignoring what I'm saying about that. For the last time, the fandom usually only accepts risk taking and being different when they grew up with it on some level.


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## RAGING BONER (Jun 5, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> You insist that 'SW fans are open minded', but you keep ignoring what I'm saying about that. For the last time, the fandom usually only accepts risk taking and being different when they grew up with it on some level.


 I was an old man by the time KotoR and the prequels came out and I'm fully open to this enigmatic and mythic "change" you speak of...

except, I have _yet_ to see _anything_ resembling change in Disney Star Wars...just rehashed garbage done worse than when it was made 40 years ago by people with...what's the word I'm looking for?

ah yes! TALENT!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 4


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## MartialHorror (Jun 5, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> I was an old man by the time KotoR and the prequels came out and I'm fully open to this enigmatic and mythic "change" you speak of...
> 
> except, I have _yet_ to see _anything_ resembling change in Disney Star Wars...just rehashed garbage done worse than when it was made 40 years ago by people with...what's the word I'm looking for?
> 
> ah yes! TALENT!



.........How old are you? Shit, I thought I was the NF equivalent of the elderly.

Edit: Either way, if you were an 'old man' by the time the prequels came out, I have to assume you weren't young enough to practically be raised by the OT.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jun 5, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> .........How old are you? Shit, I thought I was the NF equivalent of the elderly.


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## Skaddix (Jun 6, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> I was an old man by the time KotoR and the prequels came out and I'm fully open to this enigmatic and mythic "change" you speak of...
> 
> except, I have _yet_ to see _anything_ resembling change in Disney Star Wars...just rehashed garbage done worse than when it was made 40 years ago by people with...what's the word I'm looking for?
> 
> ah yes! TALENT!



WELL THIS IS NEW INFORMATION TO FILE.

Boner was Old when the Forum was Born. 

Honestly, JJ could sell his soul and not fix this Trilogy.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 6, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> It's just very easy to dismiss something as leftist media bullshit when it doesn't coincide with your own opinions. Keep in mind that the 'racist Star Wars fans' allegations came out BEFORE "The Force Awakens" was experiencing any real backlash. The movie wasn't even out yet and I think all they had was the teaser trailer.
> 
> You insist that 'SW fans are open minded', but you keep ignoring what I'm saying about that. For the last time, the fandom usually only accepts risk taking and being different when they grew up with it on some level.



Same argument can be made that it's easier to accept said bullshit for you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RAGING BONER (Jun 6, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> .........How old are you? Shit, I thought I was the NF equivalent of the elderly.
> 
> Edit: Either way, if you were an 'old man' by the time the prequels came out, I have to assume you weren't young enough to practically be raised by the OT.


Old may be an exaggeration but I'm certain I was well grown by that point.

now i'm not sure if it was ANH or The Last Starfighter...but one of those 2 movies was my first sci-fi flick.

and let's just say that little me was very curious as to why ANH was "episode 4" but somehow the 1st movie of a trilogy; and the showdown between Luke and Vader (in Empire) scared the shit outta me at the time


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## MShadows (Jun 6, 2018)

Will we get hot telepathic sex between Kylo and Rey in this one?


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## Mider T (Jun 6, 2018)

Nah, Rey still has a crush on Finn.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## MShadows (Jun 6, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Nah, Rey still has a crush on Finn.


What does trash Rose to say about that?


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## Mider T (Jun 6, 2018)

MShadows said:


> What does trash Rose to say about that?


She's probably gonna try to fight for her "man" but what can she do against the chosen one?


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## MShadows (Jun 6, 2018)

Mider T said:


> She's probably gonna try to fight for her "man" but what can she do against the chosen one?


Lucky us Rian is not the one writing the script otherwise Rose would've overpowered Rey with the power of love.


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (Jun 6, 2018)

Rian must've been rejected by a fat Asian woman in his youth and is living vicariously through Finn.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 6, 2018)

Well when I went to Yahoo, an article said there is a rumor that Kennedy is stepping down. Who knows whether it's actually true. It wouldn't surprise me either way.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 7, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> "
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but I remember seeing tweets, facebook posts, etc based around that shit. So it's not like I just accepted what they said.


I bet they were so few it could easily be false flag.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MartialHorror (Jun 7, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> I bet they were so few it could easily be false flag.



Because of your own political bias. Why don't you give me a real reason to assume that?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 7, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Because of your own political bias. Why don't you give me a real reason to assume that?


I am utterly unaware of any large racist contingent of SW fans existing now or in the recent past.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 7, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> I am utterly unaware of any large racist contingent of SW fans existing now or in the recent past.



So if you aren't aware, then you immediately reject it?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 7, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> So if you aren't aware, then you immediately reject it?


Depends on the circumstances. In this circustance when i read the articles i did not see quantification. Don't ask me the source it was long ago.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 8, 2018)

Link removed

Colin Trevorrow talks about why he left/was pushed out of Episode 9, although the info was really nothing new. The failure of "Book of Henry" caused Lucasfilms to lose faith in him and wouldn't do what he wanted to do. Part of me wants to assume that he and Johnson were in a conflict over Episode 8, but "Book of Henry" caused the studio to side with Johnson...But that doesn't really fit the timeline, as "Book of Henry" was released in June, 2017 and that would be a REALLY short production schedule for "The Last Jedi" to be written, shot and edited in 6 months. 

So more likely, Trevorrow probably wanted to do his own thing that Lucasfilms might've been uncomfortable with and decided after "Book of Henry", that the risk wasn't worth taking. Or they just said if he didn't part ways amicably, they would fire him and both would lose faith, so he chose the former.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 8, 2018)

Lmao fuck Trevorrow

Dude directs Jurassic World and Book of Henry and thinks he's hot shit


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## MartialHorror (Jun 8, 2018)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Lmao fuck Trevorrow
> 
> Dude directs Jurassic World and Book of Henry and thinks he's hot shit



I can't say I was disappointed when he left because I've yet to like any of his films, but I still wish someone else other than J.J was doing Episode 9.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 9, 2018)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Lmao fuck Trevorrow
> 
> Dude directs Jurassic World and Book of Henry and thinks he's hot shit


1 mega success movie and one failure is fairly typical in Hollywood or in any movie industry in the world. I don't see what the big deal is.


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2018)

Wouldn't matter either way, the failure of TLJ and the bombing of Solo along with the absolute awful state of how for Disney the toy and merchandise sales are being currently for Star Wars is an unprecedented disaster. Every film series in the MCU has had the sequels doing better than their predecessors but not for Disney Star Wars. Ignoring Rogue One after The Force Awakens being a simple spin-off/side-story, TLJ did almost only half of what TFA did. And then Solo being a side-story BASED directly on a main character from the OT doing this badly is executive-level-we-need-to-reorganize-and-look-at-how-we-fucked-up-this-badly tier.

Another simple fact is from business perspective like others such as Alex Becker have put it is this, the hippo is stuck.

They have killed the momentum for any future films starting with Episode IX with the actions of Episode VIII. The most popular and iconic characters are either dead or irrelevant (Han, Luke, Leia) and the ones that seemed to score somewhat decently for the Sequel Trilogy have been bastardized in TLJ; Poe & Finn. Phasma was nothing, Rose is only going to turn off more people, particularly Asians, from giving a shit, and Rey and Kylo have nowhere to go. Kylo in particular being beaten already in the first movie and Snoke being dead adds zero impetus to care to watch IX. There's no big mystery here, there's no follow up plot. 

In TESB, the big reveal of Vader being Anakin Skywalker and Luke's father, the looming threat of the Emperor, Han being captured and taken to Jabba's Palace, and Lando joining the Rebels were overkill to compel people to watch ROTJ. There is nothing to that TLJ's successor. And business wise once the hippo (energy) is dead or stalled, its almost always impossible to get them trotting again.  It doesn't even matter how much better IX will be compared to VIII, Disney has killed any good will most of the fans have for the franchise period. It could do everything and I mean EVERYTHING right and I doubt it will see even the same numbers of TLJ.

Decades from now people will look in the entertainment industry and have entire theories and examples set around what NOT to do to destroy a multi-billion franchise.

Reactions: Winner 6


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 9, 2018)

Fang said:


> Wouldn't matter either way, the failure of TLJ and the bombing of Solo along with the absolute awful state of how for Disney the toy and merchandise sales are being currently for Star Wars is an unprecedented disaster. Every film series in the MCU has had the sequels doing better than their predecessors but not for Disney Star Wars. Ignoring Rogue One after The Force Awakens being a simple spin-off/side-story, TLJ did almost only half of what TFA did. And then Solo being a side-story BASED directly on a main character from the OT doing this badly is executive-level-we-need-to-reorganize-and-look-at-how-we-fucked-up-this-badly tier.
> 
> Another simple fact is from business perspective like others such as Alex Becker have put it is this, the hippo is stuck.
> 
> ...


Everyone in the world knows what a lightsaber is. Just open up a new era and get the best comercial storytellers they can.


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## Mider T (Jun 9, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> I am utterly unaware


Pretty much Kamal in a nutshell.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mider T (Jun 9, 2018)

Fang said:


> Decades from now people will look in the entertainment industry and have entire theories and examples set around what NOT to do to destroy a multi-billion franchise.


TFA and TLJ are the only billion dollar earners for the franchise


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2018)

Mider T said:


> TFA and TLJ are the only billion dollar earners for the franchise



>ANH
>ROTS

K.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Atlas (Jun 9, 2018)

Rogue One is the last SW film I seen in theaters. Looks like it will be that way until the Obi Wan film.


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## Mider T (Jun 9, 2018)

Fang said:


> >ANH
> >ROTS
> 
> K.


Didn't earn a billion dollars.


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Didn't earn a billion dollars.



>implying Disney made a billion dollars from TFA or TLJ at the box office into their bank accounts

lmao

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2018)

Kek.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Mider T (Jun 9, 2018)

Fang said:


> Kek.


It didn't _earn _a billion.  When you adjust it's _earnings _for inflation in today's dollar it comes out to what you posted.  But if you're honest and post the _earnings _you'll see exactly how much money it made.


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2018)

Mider T said:


> It didn't _earn _a billion.  When you adjust it's _earnings _for inflation in today's dollar it comes out to what you posted.  But if you're honest and post the _earnings _you'll see exactly how much money it made.



>implying 
>RotS did better than 99% of Disney Nu Wars
>and it cost a quarter of what they did as well to make

Based George.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Mider T (Jun 9, 2018)

Fang said:


> >RotS did better than 99% of Disney Nu Wars


It didn't gross more than TFA or TLJ though


Fang said:


> >and it cost a quarter of what they did as well to make



Yes older movies tended to cost less to make, good take


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2018)

Mider T said:


> It didn't gross more than TFA or TLJ though



It also cost less than 25% to make. So, statistically it made much more money and less to produce. Higher profit margin.


> Yes older movies tended to cost less to make, good take



Yes, because think on this hard brainlet, the average modern hollywood movie not made by Disney is always half a billion dollar affairs right? Yeah that's what I thought.

Lucas made the OT and PT as an indie film maker, most of the production costs were on him. And that was under a single budget for both production and marketing.

>Film costs 100 million to make and market
>Distributor and producer + studio make almost 9 times that back just at the box office

Oh and ding bat, Rian is technically "owned" by his parent studio (guess who?), so Disney also had to pay like $15-20 million to them since he isn't an independent film maker due to how commissions work.

So to recap:

>ANH made more and cost less thereby generated far more money then TFA did
>TFA didn't even break a billion in profit from its revenue

You lost.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Mider T (Jun 9, 2018)

Fang said:


> It also cost less than 25% to make. So, statistically it made much more money and less to produce. Higher profit margin.
> 
> 
> Yes, because think on this hard brainlet, the average modern hollywood movie not made by Disney is always half a billion dollar affairs right? Yeah that's what I thought.
> ...


All of this salt and you forgot what we were talking about.  Grossing in real dollars, not net profits off of inflation.

Reactions: Old 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 9, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Pretty much Kamal in a nutshell.


Why should i care about the fact that you happen to dislike me?


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## Mider T (Jun 9, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Why should i care about the fact that you happen to dislike me?


I don't dislike you.  That isn't what I said either.  Pay attention.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 9, 2018)

Mider T said:


> I don't dislike you.  That isn't what I said either.  Pay attention.


Yes you do and it does not really mean much.


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2018)

Mider T said:


> All of this salt and you forgot what we were talking about.  Grossing in real dollars, not net profits off of inflation.



All this bullshit and you still can't factor in even without inflation, TFA made less money due to much higher and bloated production costs and marketing campaigns and Disney's intent to try and sell this brand to the Asian/Chinese market which has constantly failed and backfired over and over.

>TFA costs about $500 million to make
>TFA makes $2 billion
>ultimately after sales tax, domestic and foreign theater cuts, they EARNED $600-700 million tops

Real dollar means nothing when current standard is grossly bloated due to net recession, you dong. Keep trying to shift the goal posts though.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Mider T (Jun 9, 2018)

Production costs don't factor into box office gross.  Neither do toy sales or anything other of this irrelevant shit you always try to bring up


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## Fang (Jun 9, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Production costs don't factor into box office gross.



They do when you want to tally revenue for your production. Or do you not know how profit works for a business?



> Neither do toy sales or anything other of this irrelevant shit you always try to bring up



t. Disney marketing shill unhappy by the reality their brand is sinking faster than Rose's fat ass on the silver screen. 

>"Uh we made $1.3 billion at the box office for TLJ"!
>"ignore the fact 75% of that isn't coming back to our wallets"
>"Or the fact we keep having declining multipliers for each new Star Wars movie"

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 15, 2018)




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## Ghost_of_Gashir (Jun 15, 2018)

Disney should just have Star Wars crossover with the Guardians of the Galaxy if they wanna actually make money.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 15, 2018)

Ghost_of_Gashir said:


> Disney should just have Star Wars crossover with the Guardians of the Galaxy if they wanna actually make money.


I afraid it would be a gimmick that would burn out kick.


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## Fang (Jun 15, 2018)

Fluttershy is mad and triggered by facts. I guess this explains his obsessive emulation of wanting to be like Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 4 | Dislike 1


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## hcheng02 (Jun 26, 2018)

MShadows said:


> Will we get hot telepathic sex between Kylo and Rey in this one?



There have been rumored leaks about the early plot that shows that Kylo and Rey are still in love with each other. Note that these are early storyboards so they still have Carrie Fisher in them.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 26, 2018)

hcheng02 said:


> shows that Kylo and Rey are still in love with each other.



So their weird creepy flirting is already considered at the mutual love level by the filmmakers.
Lucas's written romance was bad in the prequels, but at least he was able to show what he was going for.


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## Mider T (Jun 26, 2018)

hcheng02 said:


> There have been rumored leaks about the early plot that shows that Kylo and Rey are still in love with each other. Note that these are early storyboards so they still have Carrie Fisher in them.


?

Rey is interested in Finn.


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## hcheng02 (Jun 26, 2018)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> So their weird creepy flirting is already considered at the mutual love level by the filmmakers.
> Lucas's written romance was bad in the prequels, but at least he was able to show what he was going for.



Not only that, but apparently they are both able to fully manifest themselves in the Force and hold regular "conversations" which has gone on for the 5 year time skip. They do this despite the fact that Kylo is hunting down Force users with the Knights of Ren and many said Force users are hiding with Rey.


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## Rax (Jun 26, 2018)

Star Wars is dead

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## hcheng02 (Jun 26, 2018)

Mider T said:


> ?
> 
> Rey is interested in Finn.



Did you watch the video? The leaks say that Rey and Kylo secretly love each other. However, it also mentions that Rey has a secret love child who is also one of her disciples so maybe she got it on with Finn? Also, this is an early storyboard so it might be changed.


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## Mider T (Jun 26, 2018)

hcheng02 said:


> Did you watch the video? The leaks say that Rey and Kylo secretly love each other. However, it also mentions that Rey has a secret love child who is also one of her disciples so maybe she got it on with Finn? Also, this is an early storyboard so it might be changed.


Yeah I watched it, it never mentioned who the father could be though.  However none of this matters since Carrie is dead, the entire script has to be changed.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 26, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Yeah I watched it, it never mentioned who the father could be though.  However none of this matters since Carrie is dead, the entire script has to be changed.


Unless they CGI her anyway.


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## hcheng02 (Jun 26, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Yeah I watched it, it never mentioned who the father could be though.  However none of this matters since Carrie is dead, the entire script has to be changed.



Or maybe the kid was an immaculate conception from the Force. Also, they could just change Carrie's role into someone else and keep the general story line.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 27, 2018)

Reylo

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 2


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## Skaddix (Jun 27, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Reylo



Goddamit Shiba you are trying to kill Star wars for Good.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Zef (Jun 27, 2018)

hcheng02 said:


> There have been rumored leaks about the early plot that shows that Kylo and Rey are still in love with each other. Note that these are early storyboards so they still have Carrie Fisher in them.


If Reylo is a thing they can keep episode 9.


Is the author of Twilight writing this shit?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Zef (Jun 27, 2018)

I mean....

>Kylo killed Han

>Kylo put Finn in a coma

>Kylo indirectly made Luke exhaust his powers to death


Kylo hurts and/or kills all of Rey's friends and they're in love?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 27, 2018)

Zef said:


> I mean....
> 
> >Kylo killed Han
> 
> ...


Clearly they are meant for each other.


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## Pocalypse (Jun 27, 2018)

Zef said:


> I mean....
> 
> >Kylo killed Han
> 
> ...



Bitch was crying because Kylo wouldn't turn to the good side when she asked to stop the attacks on the Rebel fleet after Snoke's death, they were dying in the background and she was all up in her feelings because muh Kylo is still bad

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Skaddix (Jun 27, 2018)

Zef said:


> I mean....
> 
> >Kylo killed Han
> 
> ...



I call it Twilight but I don't think Edward was a mass murderer who tortured all of Bella's friends, killed most of his own family and led a genocidal empire.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## hcheng02 (Jun 27, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> I call it Twilight but I don't think Edward was a mass murderer who tortured all of Bella's friends, killed most of his own family and led a genocidal empire.



Man, you know your love story is in trouble when you are losing to freaking Twilight.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 27, 2018)

Is it a love story yet though? Other than the 'shirt' line, it seemed one-sided. Trying to get someone to repent is not necessarily a romance.

Furthermore, they also tease other pairings in that same film. Rey looks somewhat sad or jealous (depending on how you look at it) seeing Finn tuck in Rose. Some have interpreted some attraction between Poe and Rey, although I didn't see it.


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## Mider T (Jun 27, 2018)

Its not real guys don't fall for it.


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## RAGING BONER (Jun 27, 2018)

this is hilarious...

also, it'll be revealed that the love child is a product of the force like Anakin was...


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## Pocalypse (Jun 27, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> this is hilarious...
> 
> also, it'll be revealed that the love child is a product of the force like Anakin was...



Reylo is SasuSaku, Finn is Karin and he's gonna deliver Reylo's kid... good lord


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## Fang (Jun 27, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> this is hilarious...
> 
> also, it'll be revealed that the love child is a product of the force like Anakin was...



"We'll get justification for why Rey is bullshit OP in Episode VIII guys" - Stunna
"She's strong cause Ren is strong" - Rian Johsnon

Thank you Soy Wars.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 27, 2018)

KK is my hero for doing all of this to Fangs favorite franchise

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Fang (Jun 27, 2018)

Thanks for proving what a cuck minded brainlet you are I guess.



Lmao.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1 | Old 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 27, 2018)

the day when Mouse announced the axing of old EU was the best day in SW history

Reactions: Old 1


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## Fang (Jun 27, 2018)

I mean this is getting pathetic even beyond your old shit like defending pedophiles like Zangetto and now you are just going in circles like a headless chicken, you suck at baiting.

"Man I sure hate EU"
"Oh wait Disney rebooted the EU back into every fucking story in the new canon because they keep bleeding money, wtf I love Disney now"

Autism.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Old 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 27, 2018)

> imagine posting screenshots of dislikes you've gotten on a chinese cartoon forum and being proud of doing so

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Fang (Jun 27, 2018)

You might have a point if you didn't stalk my posts and parrot my posting style, brainlet brony-kun. Fact you are getting cagey over me pointing out you chimping out like a mong doing this stuff for what, the third time now is hilarious.

>Uh oh he's calling out my shit
>Better double down and try to play the blame game to shift what's going on

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Old 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 27, 2018)

Fang said:


> I love Disney *now*


I've loved Disney since forever tho 



Fang said:


> Autism.


yes you are  seek help



P.S. I imagine you'll still be bitching about Star Wars in 2030 and 2040

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Fang (Jun 27, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I've loved Disney since forever tho



I don't think Disney likes pedophiles and their apologist enablers, Fluttershit.



> yes you are



Nope.


> P.S. I imagine you'll still be bitching about Star Wars in 2030 and 2040



Project harder. And why you so mad at the truth?

Reactions: Like 1 | Old 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 27, 2018)

I wonder what gets u madder - when I rate your posts _Old_ or _Dislike_

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Fang (Jun 27, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I wonder what gets u madder - when I rate your posts _Old_ or _Dislike_



I wonder what gets you madder- the fact Disney is bleeding money and in a corporate disaster with their PR for almost a year now or how red your hemorrhoids are getting with the ass-whooping you take every time you try to talk shit to me?

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 27, 2018)

poor Disney what will they do now 


if only they had the little autist Fang consulting them

Reactions: Old 1


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## Fang (Jun 27, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> poor Disney what will they do now



I don't know but if you are the end result of their shit attempt at viral marketing they have a long way to dig themselves from out of the grave, glueboy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Old 1


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 27, 2018)

Episode IX is fucked either way.
Abrams will need to spend the entire film trying to get the plotlines back towards his original plan.
Then rap up the material he wanted for IX in whatever time frame he has left.

That or make a completely new plot from the conflicting jumbled mess the previous two storylines entailed.

As for replacing the people in charge now would be a huge mistake.
This trilogy could potentially be brought up to subpar status, if the third one manages to rise from the ashes like a phoenix.
But the new guy would need a miracle and it would taint future movies.

Better to keep the old staff and have them fail, imo.
I would then (if I was Disney) dump all the blame on them, since the fandom is already leaning in that direction anyway.
Severing this trilogy like a cancer, I would make a whole show of wiping the slate clean with a new crew.

Only by completely distancing from this whole mess, could Disney start to restore enough faith for a new cashcow Trilogy, imo.


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## Fang (Jun 27, 2018)

Its going to be dead on arrival anyway compared to VIII which at least had the momentum from VII and R1 going for it. I said it before and I'll say it again, Disney will be LUCKY if IX's life time gross hits a billion. There's nowhere for them to go but down since TLJ.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kaaant (Jun 27, 2018)

Then main cast so far still have only known each other for like a _week. _Boring, carbon copies of *individual *character traits from Luke divided among the three of them goddamn it  mark Hamil even pointed it out. 

Rey is a blatant clone of Luke and even then she’s only like 60% of him

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Xhominid (Jun 27, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Then main cast so far still have only known each other for like a _week. _Boring, carbon copies of *individual *character traits from Luke divided among the three of them goddamn it  mark Hamil even pointed it out.
> 
> Rey is a blatant clone of Luke and even then she’s only like 60% of him



60%!? Mark Hamill is WAY too generous there...
30% would be more apt since Rey is practically the same as Luke from ANH even now.


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## Kaaant (Jun 27, 2018)

I’m trying to work it out but my interest in these characters is so minimal. Poe gets Luke’s status as the rebellion’s top pilot and asset, but his skill is cranked up to eleven. Finn has Luke’s innocence and optimism despite being a conditioned trained killer till a week ago in the sequel trilogy’s time. 

Rey has all the force bullshit and origin story. Literally down to the planet type and droid interaction.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zef (Jun 27, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Is it a love story yet though? Other than the 'shirt' line, it seemed one-sided. Trying to get someone to repent is not necessarily a romance.


Kylo has been given a chance in two films now to repent.

And we need a villain for 9 since Snoke was killed off. RJ really fucked things up.


> Furthermore, they also tease other pairings in that same film. Rey looks somewhat sad or jealous (depending on how you look at it) seeing Finn tuck in Rose. Some have interpreted some attraction between Poe and Rey, although I didn't see it.


Finn, Poe, and Shrek are so underdeveloped compared to Rey & Kylo. The last thing they need is a romantic subplot.

Finn in particular needs to justify why he exists in this franchise because so far he's been a waste of screentime.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 27, 2018)

Zef said:


> Kylo has been given a chance in two films now to repent.
> 
> And we need a villain for 9 since Snoke was killed off. RJ really fucked things up.
> 
> ...




Finn has knowledge off all enemy bases, since he cleaned all their toilets or something.
Since droids like R2 seem to have lost their hacking ability in this trilogy with the whole code breaker subplot, they need a tour guide for the weaknesses.


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## Catalyst75 (Jun 28, 2018)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Since droids like R2 seem to have lost their hacking ability in this trilogy with the whole code breaker subplot, they need a tour guide for the weaknesses.



I wouldn't say that droids lost their hacking ability; they needed a code breaker to get through the shields of the Supremacy.  That, and it is arguable BB-8 does not have the same hacking ability as R2-D2 (or that First Order coding is unfamiliar to New Republic droids).


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## MartialHorror (Jun 28, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> Trump should actually do that shit already, shorten their copyright, Lucas would laugh his ass off. "Thanks for the bucks! or perhaps SASUGA KENNEDY DESU!"



Aren't Lucas and Kennedy supposed to be friends?


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## Suigetsu (Jun 28, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Aren't Lucas and Kennedy supposed to be friends?


she clearly betrayed him. He hired her because she was a "good producer" but the bitch went mad drunk with power.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 28, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> she clearly betrayed him. He hired her because she was a "good producer" but the bitch went mad drunk with power.



I challenge you to find quotes, or some form of evidence that isn't just you projecting your own opinions onto him. 

He doesn't seem thrilled with the new Star Wars movies, but Spielberg wasn't thrilled with Lucas's ideas for Indiana Jones and they're still friends.


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## hcheng02 (Jun 28, 2018)



Reactions: Like 2


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 29, 2018)




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## dr_shadow (Jun 29, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Didn't earn a billion dollars.



Um, not accounting for inflation is like saying building the Burj Khalifa (800 m) was a greater engineering feat than building the Great Pyramid (100 m) because it's taller.

Ignoring the fact that after the Pyramid was done it remained the tallest man-made structure in the world for *almost 4000 years*. Whereas the Burj Khalifa is set to be overtaken by the Jeddah Tower (1000 m) by 2020, having held the record for only 10 years.

So obviously the Pyramid was a greater relative feat for its time, as nobody (Mesopotamians, Indians, Chinese...) was able to replicate it for so long.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 29, 2018)

thank god they killed Luke, so there wont be (as much) bitching about him in future movies

Reactions: Old 2


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 30, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> thank god they killed Luke, so there wont be (as much) bitching about him in future movies


If you cannot treat him right....


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## ~M~ (Jul 1, 2018)

Disney will be getting no star wars money from me


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 5, 2018)




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## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 5, 2018)

He's counting towards the death kneel.


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## Atlas (Jul 5, 2018)

Forgot this movie was still happening, thanks for the reminder, Mark!


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## Fang (Jul 6, 2018)

D.O.A


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## Aeternus (Jul 6, 2018)

9 will be fine, huh? We'll see about that.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 6, 2018)

Lol ham keep leaving lowkey clues that he didn't like TLJ .


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## Mider T (Jul 6, 2018)

Too far away!


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## MartialHorror (Jul 6, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Too far away!



I know, right? Fang needs this.


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## Pocalypse (Jul 6, 2018)

~Gesy~ said:


> Lol ham keep leaving lowkey clues that he didn't like TLJ .



No clues needed, just watch his interviews. Especially the awkward ones when he's being interviewed with Rian and KK. He doesn't hide his dislike for this crap


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## Mider T (Jul 6, 2018)




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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 6, 2018)

Mider T said:


>


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 6, 2018)

is Keri Russell the one they're aiming for as the Leia re-cast?


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## Aeternus (Jul 6, 2018)

Don't think they need to recast her really.


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## Fang (Jul 6, 2018)

Mider T said:


>



>Indiewire

Into the trash it goes.


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 7, 2018)

Eternal Dreamer said:


> Don't think they need to recast her really.


well considering how poorly they handled Han and Luke it would be merciful of these shitfucks to simply pretend Leia never existed at all...


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## Aeternus (Jul 7, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> well considering how poorly they handled Han and Luke it would be merciful of these shitfucks to simply pretend Leia never existed at all...


lol Well they could say she died some time between episodes 8 and 9 or something.


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## Rukia (Jul 7, 2018)

I want the next movie to start with Harrison Ford waking up.  And then he is shocked when he meets Rey.  Rey travels with Han and Chewie.  And they have a couple of confrontations with Ben.  Eventually they are able to put him back on the path of the light.


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## Aeternus (Jul 7, 2018)

I can think of a few reasons this is not going to happen lol


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## Rukia (Jul 7, 2018)

You could start the movie with Rey dying and the entire universe falls.  Rey wakes up.  And she decides to stay on the planet living her life as a scavenger.


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## Aeternus (Jul 7, 2018)

You sure love Rey lol


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## Rukia (Jul 7, 2018)

I think it would be hard to just pretend she doesn’t exist and move forward with the third movie.  What I would rather do is pretend that the second movie doesn’t exist.  Star Wars needs a reset more desperately than X-Men needed First Class.


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## Aeternus (Jul 7, 2018)

Won't disagree on the latter.


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## Mider T (Jul 7, 2018)

Fang said:


> >Indiewire
> 
> Into the trash it goes.


It only reposted his tweet and it's not like its vox


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Jul 7, 2018)

They can easily start this movie with Leia's funeral, they can say a few years passed since the previous one, her health got really bad since last time and eventually died, easy way to deal with the issue and pay homage to Carrie Fisher at the same time.


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## Fang (Jul 7, 2018)

Mider T said:


> It only reposted his tweet and it's not like its vox



>Indiewire
>Mider T defending it

Cringe.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 7, 2018)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> They can easily start this movie with Leia's funeral, they can say a few years passed since the previous one, her health got really bad since last time and eventually died, easy way to deal with the issue and pay homage to Carrie Fisher at the same time.


This will also make it easier to accept Rey as the next master of the force.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 7, 2018)

The guy who played Finn at one point said they had a plan that will resolve Leia's story in a respectful manner, following Fisher's death. But I can't think of a way to conclude her character in a satisfying manner, so we'll have to see.


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## Suigetsu (Jul 9, 2018)

I want the movie to start with Bobba fett burning Rian Jhonson alive and a Ghost luke skywalker and Mara jade double teaming to kill Dark Rey and Kylo ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".), with their new x-wings markIII. Then george lucas appears in the end as a force ghost and everyone has a party. THE END.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 9, 2018)



Reactions: Like 3


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 9, 2018)

He's coming to an expo near where I live!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aeternus (Jul 9, 2018)

They do need someone from the old cast to kill


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 9, 2018)

They better fucking not!


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## Aeternus (Jul 10, 2018)

I wouldn't put it past them.


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## Atlas (Jul 10, 2018)

Welp, guess it's time for Lando's character to get shit on.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 11, 2018)



Reactions: Like 1


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## BlazingInferno (Jul 12, 2018)

This thread still exists?


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## Amol (Jul 13, 2018)

I don't even understand the craze behind Star Wars franchise. Even the original movies weren't some masterpieces. 
These are just movies. Why people get so attached to them I would never know.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Jul 13, 2018)

Amol said:


> I don't even understand the craze behind Star Wars franchise. Even the original movies weren't some masterpieces.
> These are just movies. Why people get so attached to them I would never know.


The unique attachment isn't shared by India or China, probably because it wasn't released at the same time.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 13, 2018)

Amol said:


> I don't even understand the craze behind Star Wars franchise. Even the original movies weren't some masterpieces.
> These are just movies. Why people get so attached to them I would never know.



It's because most of the hardcare fans grew up with them in the right way. Most people usually pick a 'favorite movie of all time' based partially on their quality, but mostly based on them watching it at the right age where they're developing their tastes. Star Wars was built into a trilogy of classics by those who watched them as children.

Unfortunately, this also means that they think they know what's better for the franchise than the actual creators, whether it's Lucas, Kasdan, Kennedy, etc. I'm not saying I'm any better either. For all the shit I give the fanbase these days, it's easy to forget that I am also a fan and am prone to the exact same emotions, lol.


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## Suigetsu (Jul 13, 2018)

Amol said:


> I don't even understand the craze behind Star Wars franchise. Even the original movies weren't some masterpieces.
> These are just movies. Why people get so attached to them I would never know.


The current crazy is about gossip and the shitfest that's going behind closed doors.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 18, 2018)




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## Skaddix (Jul 18, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> The guy who played Finn at one point said they had a plan that will resolve Leia's story in a respectful manner, following Fisher's death. But I can't think of a way to conclude her character in a satisfying manner, so we'll have to see.



Respectful is Relative. considering how bad Luke and Han got it....


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## Gaiash (Jul 18, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> Respectful is Relative. considering how bad Luke and Han got it....


Except both characters were handled really well in the new trilogy and had deaths that were fitting to their characters. Han started the series only looking out for himself and dies in one last attempt to reconnect with his son despite knowing the chances of success were low. Luke after having his hopeful view on the Jedi tainted by the reality of their actions instead shifts that hope for what the Jedi of the future could become and dies as an inspiration for a new generation of force sensitive individuals.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 18, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> Respectful is Relative. considering how bad Luke and Han got it....



That's the dilemma, isn't it? None of us can agree on the fates of the characters. 

Although is Han's death controversial? I know Luke's obviously is, but I never really heard any complaints about how Han got it. My issue with Han's death was that it was sort of undercut by Finn's injury...which is especially annoying in hindsight, as Finn almost immediately recovers from it in the next movie...But otherwise, I thought his fate was handled well. 

We all knew it was coming though, so maybe they should've waited until Episode 8 before killing him off, just to give us hope that maybe Harrison Ford had changed his mind about the conclusion for his character. I think Luke's death would've been perfect for Episode 9, although they'd obviously have to change the circumstances.


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## Zef (Jul 18, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> The guy who played Finn at one point said they had a plan that will resolve Leia's story in a respectful manner, following Fisher's death. But I can't think of a way to conclude her character in a satisfying manner, so we'll have to see.


Them not killing Leai off when the actress died irl is the most stupid film decision ever.



Atlas said:


> Welp, guess it's time for Lando's character to get shit on.


This new trilogy is about butchering the old characters. Lando of course, couldn't be left out.


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## Skaddix (Jul 18, 2018)

Zef said:


> Them not killing Leai off when the actress died irl is the most stupid film decision ever.
> 
> 
> This new trilogy is about butchering the old characters. Lando of course, couldn't be left out.



You MUST LET THE PAST DIE ZEF...usually someone means that metaphorically but for KK, RJ and JJ they meant it literally.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 18, 2018)

Zef said:


> Them not killing Leai off when the actress died irl is the most stupid film decision ever.
> 
> 
> This new trilogy is about butchering the old characters. Lando of course, couldn't be left out.



Yeah, they should've totally predicted her death. F@cking Rian Johnson and his inability to see into the future!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gaiash (Jul 18, 2018)

Zef said:


> Them not killing Leai off when the actress died irl is the most stupid film decision ever.


They could always keep her off-screen but still in an active leader role. Maybe this time the main cast don't spend any time with the head members of the Resistance only getting their information from holograms. Characters have outlived their actors in ways that felt respectful to their characters before.


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## Zef (Jul 19, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, they should've totally predicted her death. F@cking Rian Johnson and his inability to see into the future!


She died months before the film release.

All they had to do was cut the scene where she flies back to the ship like Superman.
That's literally all they had to do.


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## Gaiash (Jul 19, 2018)

Zef said:


> She died months before the film release.
> 
> All they had to do was cut the scene where she flies back to the ship like Superman.
> That's literally all they had to do.


Then we would have missed out on Leia using the force in a context outside of sensing those she cares about as well as the scene where Luke's force projection reunites with her.


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## Zef (Jul 19, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Then we would have missed out on Leia using the force in a context outside of sensing those she cares about as well as the scene where Luke's force projection reunites with her.


What's more important? Showing off force powers or making sure your final film is coherent?


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## Gaiash (Jul 19, 2018)

Zef said:


> What's more important? Showing off force powers or making sure your final film is coherent?


Unless they decide to pick up exactly where the last film left off again there's no reason Leia can't just be off-screen or die between movies. Keeping the great scenes Carrie Fisher filmed for her last film seems pretty important to me.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 19, 2018)

Zef said:


> She died months before the film release.
> 
> All they had to do was cut the scene where she flies back to the ship like Superman.
> That's literally all they had to do.



That would've required the ending to be completely re-shot and edited, even though they only had "months before the film release". This would've robbed the movie from a Leia/Luke reunion, which would've especially stung considering we never even got a Luke/Han reunion. This also would've angered the fanbase, because everything angers the fanbase and her death would've been too awkward/too much of a downer that early in the movie.

It also would've been completely upstaged by Luke's final moments. So "That's literally all they had to do" is just...wrong...Or have you missed all of the fan rage surrounding the fact that the new films have been killing off the OT leads, or the fact that Leia is prominent within the climax of "TLJ"?


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## Suigetsu (Jul 19, 2018)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


>


looks like he said no to the sequel. 



Gaiash said:


> Then we would have missed out on Leia using the force r.


Why would you like to see her flying with the force. We already knew she could use it since Empire strikes back. Duhh. Stop excusing shit decisions.


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## Gaiash (Jul 19, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> Why would you like to see her flying with the force. We already knew she could use it since Empire strikes back. Duhh.


Yes we already knew she could use it since Empire but in the part of my post your reply left out I specifically said it was nice to see her use it in a context outside of sensing people she cared about. Using the force to pull herself towards the ship was a really cool thing for her to do that fit with her character.



Suigetsu said:


> Stop excusing shit decisions.


Can't stop something I haven't even started. Honestly the only shit decision in my post was mine for commenting in another Star Wars thread on this forum when it was obviously going to be full of the same idiots as the other ones.


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## Suigetsu (Jul 19, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Can't stop something I haven't even started. Honestly the only shit decision in my post was mine for commenting in another Star Wars thread on this forum when it was obviously going to be full of the same idiots as the other ones.


Your mistake was liking and caring for a crap movie.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 19, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> Your mistake was liking and caring for a crap movie.



Why do you even post here anymore? What emotional investment do you have in him liking a movie?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 20, 2018)

Mider T said:


> The unique attachment isn't shared by India or China, probably because it wasn't released at the same time.


Their movies are also different and have a large and rich movie culture.



MartialHorror said:


> It's because most of the hardcare fans grew up with them in the right way. Most people usually pick a 'favorite movie of all time' based partially on their quality, but mostly based on them watching it at the right age where they're developing their tastes. Star Wars was built into a trilogy of classics by those who watched them as children.
> 
> Unfortunately, this also means that they think they know what's better for the franchise than the actual creators, whether it's Lucas, Kasdan, Kennedy, etc. I'm not saying I'm any better either. For all the shit I give the fanbase these days, it's easy to forget that I am also a fan and am prone to the exact same emotions, lol.



As a franchise manager almost anyone not dumb would be better than Lucas and Kennedy. 

Why would i not think that? When the Thrawn trilogy came out it was very speculative of people still care about Star Wars.

The less is said about Kathleen K the better.



Gaiash said:


> Except both characters were handled really well in the new trilogy and had deaths that were fitting to their characters. Han started the series only looking out for himself and dies in one last attempt to reconnect with his son despite knowing the chances of success were low. Luke after having his hopeful view on the Jedi tainted by the reality of their actions instead shifts that hope for what the Jedi of the future could become and dies as an inspiration for a new generation of force sensitive individuals.



His son sucks. No idea with whom was Leia cheating on him but she was really drunk. Kylo Ren cannot come mfrom that Alpha Male seed.



Zef said:


> Them not killing Leai off when the actress died irl is the most stupid film decision ever.



Canto Blight discovery of social class is way worse.


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## Mider T (Jul 20, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Their movies are also different and have a large and rich movie culture.


This doesn't explain anything nor adds onto my post.  Don't quote me with cabbage posts.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 20, 2018)

Mider T said:


> This doesn't explain anything nor adds onto my post.  Don't quote me with cabbage posts.


I disgree so feel free to suck it up.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 20, 2018)

lol, Kamal said Alpha Male seed...Never ceases to amaze me...

Especially as he also indicates he must've been cucked by Leia...and seems to forget that he spent a lot of "The Empire Strikes Back" throwing jealous looks at Luke and Lando whenever Leia paid more attention to them...

Ah, the hatedom truly is a magical place, filled with so many funny people.


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## Gaiash (Jul 20, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> His son sucks. No idea with whom was Leia cheating on him but she was really drunk. Kylo Ren cannot come mfrom that Alpha Male seed.


You're aware Alpha Males aren't a thing right? The guy who created the term even realized that it doesn't even apply to wolves.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 20, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> You're aware Alpha Males aren't a thing right? The guy who created the term even realized that it doesn't even apply to wolves.



Like everyone else here, he's probably getting his vocabulary from 4Chan or some shit like that. Lump that in with Cuck and Soy Boy.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 20, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> You're aware Alpha Males aren't a thing right? The guy who created the term even realized that it doesn't even apply to wolves.


It has been used forever if it applies to wolves or not.



MartialHorror said:


> Like everyone else here, he's probably getting his vocabulary from 4Chan or some shit like that. Lump that in with Cuck and Soy Boy.



You speculate that based on fucking what?



MartialHorror said:


> lol, Kamal said Alpha Male seed...Never ceases to amaze me...
> 
> Especially as he also indicates he must've been cucked by Leia...and seems to forget that he spent a lot of "The Empire Strikes Back" throwing jealous looks at Luke and Lando whenever Leia paid more attention to them...
> 
> Ah, the hatedom truly is a magical place, filled with so many funny people.



Leia is made of good stuff, so is Han. Kylo lacks in the charisma department.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 20, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> You speculate that based on fucking what?



That's where Suigetsu apparently gets all of his terms and considering you insist that the alt-right doesn't exist, I assumed you got it from 4Chan. Then again, do you even use 'Soy' and 'Cuck'? Maybe I'm confusing you with Fang here. 





> Leia is made of good stuff, so is Han. Kylo lacks in the charisma department.



That's not 'Alpha Male seed'...even though you say Leia 'must've cheated' or some shit like that, but why am I even on this point? Clearly you just thew some derogatory sentence together without even considering what insult you were using.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 20, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> That's where Suigetsu apparently gets all of his terms and considering you insist that the alt-right doesn't exist, I assumed you got it from 4Chan. Then again, do you even use 'Soy' and 'Cuck'? Maybe I'm confusing you with Fang here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't use sy and cuck.

Yeah i insulted a fictional character. Shame me if you can.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 20, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> I don't use sy and cuck.
> 
> Yeah i insulted a fictional character. Shame me if you can.



Hey, I wouldn't have responded if the insult made sense.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 20, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Hey, I wouldn't have responded if the insult made sense.


Kylo is not a compelling baddie. That will be the judgement of history.


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## Suigetsu (Jul 20, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> That's where Suigetsu apparently gets all of his terms and considering you insist that the alt-right doesn't exist, I assumed you got it from 4Chan. Then again, do you even use 'Soy' and 'Cuck'? Maybe I'm confusing you with Fang here.
> .


So everyone besides me is also calling you cuck and soyboy? I dont feel special anymore.


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## Skaddix (Jul 20, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Kylo is not a compelling baddie. That will be the judgement of history.



He is a whiny brat and no one believes he can competently lead the First Order or defeat Rey in 1 on 1 Combat....


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## MartialHorror (Jul 20, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> So everyone besides me is also calling you cuck and soyboy? I dont feel special anymore.



No, as far as I've noticed, you are the only one who calls me such things. :ho

You're a very special boy...

But Fang has thrown the terms around during a few of his meltdowns too, just not at me. Jury is out whether you guys actually know what these terms mean, or if this is another one of those "Holdo has SJW hair" moments.


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 20, 2018)

Holdo..._that_ was her name. For a while now I've only been hearing her called "Admiral Gender Studies" 


Skaddix said:


> He is a whiny brat and *no one believes he can competently lead the First Order or defeat Rey in 1 on 1 Combat*....



boy oh boy, that's some top tier writing right there...
way to build tension; I'm actually going into the finale of this shitshow fearing for the First Order.

now that i think about it there hasn't been a single moment of tension/pay off in the entire sequel series

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skaddix (Jul 20, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> Holdo..._that_ was her name. For a while now I've only been hearing her called "Admiral Gender Studies"
> 
> 
> boy oh boy, that's some top tier writing right there...
> ...



LOL.

Yeah well thank RJ...compare this to going into ROTJ. They gang had to get Han Back and Luke had just gotten beat down by Vader so you were like damn even if Luke trains up to beat Vader will he be able to stop The Emperor? Here you  are wondering how many seconds Kylo can hold out before getting raped by Rey...


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## Suigetsu (Jul 20, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> No, as far as I've noticed, you are the only one who calls me such things. :ho
> 
> You're a very special boy...
> 
> But Fang has thrown the terms around during a few of his meltdowns too, just not at me. Jury is out whether you guys actually know what these terms mean, or if this is another one of those "Holdo has SJW hair" moments.



You claim no one calls you this.
But then you proceed to say others do call you.

This is why your arguments never make sense 

Also dont even talk abotu meltdowns because you are an exemplar of them.



RAGING BONER said:


> Holdo..._that_ was her name. For a while now I've only been hearing her called "Admiral Gender Studies"
> 
> 
> boy oh boy, that's some top tier writing right there...
> ...


 

The joke tells itself.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 20, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> You claim no one calls you this.
> But then you proceed to say others do call you.
> 
> This is why your arguments never make sense
> ...



1) I didn't. I say Fang threw around those terms, just NOT. AT. ME. (yet). He was using them when debating with either TastyMuffin or Shika. 

2) lol, find one of these meltdowns. 

3) So...you don't know what an SJW is either? Those hair styles aren't even alike. Why don't you tell me what your definition of Soyboy was again. That was pretty funny. Something about mass consumption?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gaiash (Jul 20, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> This is why your arguments never make sense


They make perfect sense, if you can't understand them that's your problem not MartialHorror's.


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## Mider T (Jul 20, 2018)

Yeah what meltdown? MartialHorror has kept his cool the entire time


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## MartialHorror (Jul 20, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Yeah what meltdown? MartialHorror has kept his cool the entire time



This seems to be their strategy, in that they claim you're salty, triggered or a variation of these things, before declaring themselves the 'victors'. Soygetsu, Fang, that Ranger guy, the crazy dude who rambled about the U.N being the spawn of Satan, they seem to follow the same formula.

But this is still my fault, as I've been tired of this dance for awhile...and yet I keep getting pulled back in. There is something addicting about this thread, lol. It's unhealthy.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 21, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> No, as far as I've noticed, you are the only one who calls me such things. :ho
> 
> You're a very special boy...
> 
> But Fang has thrown the terms around during a few of his meltdowns too, just not at me. Jury is out whether you guys actually know what these terms mean, or if this is another one of those "Holdo has SJW hair" moments.


Holdo also comes from an SJW planet.



Mider T said:


> Yeah what meltdown? MartialHorror has kept his cool the entire time



I never know who melted down since i cannot read the emotional state of other posters.

What is the big deal about some agressive posting?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 21, 2018)




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## MShadows (Jul 22, 2018)

Abrams cannot save this shipwreck. It's sunken way too deep. 

Bringing in that pathetic cuck Rian Johnson was a worst case scenario decision that came reality. 

They fucked themselves over.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zef (Jul 22, 2018)

RJ basically subverted all the plot points set up in TFA, and now there's no story to tell in the final film.

Or are we gonna get _another_ Kylo conversion attempt?


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 22, 2018)

MShadows said:


> Abrams cannot save this shipwreck. It's sunken way too deep.





Zef said:


> RJ basically subverted all the plot points set up in TFA, and now there's no story to tell in the final film.



The war is in motion at the start of the third film.
If Abrams chooses, he can work what Kylo Ren claimed of Rey's parents into the story and still reveal who Rey's parents are.
Rey must eventually confront Kylo Ren one last time during the course of the film's events.
The second film and the novelization made it clear Hux has his own aspirations for the First Order, as implied when he reached for his blaster to kill the presumed unconscious Kylo Ren.
In the event Kylo Ren is redeemed, the main villain role will shift over to the First Order with Hux usurping Kylo Ren's role as Supreme Leader.
The First Order arose from the Contingency that Palpatine set in place in the event of his death, but how it took shape deconstructs the idea that there would be no sympathizers for the Empire's ideology after Palpatine's death and its official dissolution, given the First Order was made by said Imperial sympathizers and Imperial loyalists after Jakku.

As a result, the plot of Episode IX will likely encompass three things:

1. If Abrams chooses to follow through, the resolution of Rey's parentage and who her parents are
2. Kylo Ren's development and ultimate fate, whatever that may be.
3. The ongoing war with the First Order culminating in a battle that cripples or brings it to an end, potentially ending the legacy of the Galactic Empire.

There, you have a story.


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## Zef (Jul 22, 2018)

^ Star *Wars* having a war isn't a compelling draw for me.
Wars/battles are more or less in the backdrop of all the films if not the entire franchise.

It's the characters that interest me and I find them all lacklustre.

I feel sorry for anyone who still cares about Rey's parents.
RJ basically sent the message that they don't matter. It should end there instead of JJ going "ackshually"  , and wasting more screentime on it.

Kylo has had two films to develop, and two chances to redeem himself.
Anything short of him dying after directly killing Han, and indirectly killing Luke is BS that I'm not interested in watching.

In truth I'll most likely just skip the final film because there's nothing you listed there that even tickles my curiosity.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 22, 2018)

the only thing ep 8 managed to subvert was my interest in Star Wars


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## Fang (Jul 22, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> the only thing ep 8 managed to subvert was my interest in Star Wars



Well it did that with Solo too. Can't wait to see how badly IX gets mauled by Jumanji 2 at the box office in 2019 and Disney's PR branch claims its "toxic fans" who killed the movie.


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 22, 2018)

Fang said:


> *Well it did that with Solo too.*


while the boycott is real; I was never gonna watch that hot mess in theaters.





> Can't wait to see how badly IX gets mauled by Jumanji 2 at the box office in 2019 and Disney's PR branch claims its "toxic fans" who killed the movie.


"_Misogynist_ _man-babies can't stand seeing stronk wamen on screen!!!_" - LucasFilms bulletproof PR strategy


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## Gaiash (Jul 22, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> If Abrams chooses, he can work what Kylo Ren claimed of Rey's parents into the story and still reveal who Rey's parents are.


Why do people want this? Rey's parents being nobody important is the more interesting and fitting narrative for her character. Plus JJ Abrams liked The Last Jedi which means even if he had another idea about who her parents were he's still going to respect the direction Rian Johnson took the story.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 22, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Why do people want this? Rey's parents being nobody important is the more interesting and fitting narrative for her character. Plus JJ Abrams liked The Last Jedi which means even if he had another idea about who her parents were he's still going to respect the direction Rian Johnson took the story.



I think it is because there is an unspoken rule in the fandom that any new main characters (who are Force sensitive) _have to be from a special bloodline _('special' being the closest in Star Wars you can get to "divinely conceived"), or related to someone who is a Jedi.  

You know, despite _virtually every single notable EU Old Republic-Era Jedi/Sith, every Jedi Master seen in the Prequel Trilogy and Palpatine himself did not come from bloodlines previously established to be strong in the Force.  _But, apparently, a line gets crossed when it is a non-Skywalker main protagonist in a Star Wars film that doesn't come from a Force-powerful bloodline, yet is still especially gifted in the Force.

As to why Rey would be given a parentage linked to a Force wielder we know, allow me to bring up two different theories, and give my explanation for why either one could work:

If Rey was revealed to be either Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon Jinn, either by distant relations or direct descent, either would be a way of making the Skywalker Saga come full circle. If she is related to Qui-Gon, the Jedi who first found Anakin and wanted to train him as a Jedi, the story comes full circle by having his descendant save Anakin's own grandson from the Dark Side. The same is true if she is related to Obi-Wan, with the added story element of a Kenobi saving a Skywalker this time around where Obi-Wan failed Anakin.

Either way, it is a chiastic structure becoming complete.


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## Fang (Jul 22, 2018)

Cringe.


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## Gaiash (Jul 22, 2018)

I think Shaun sums up why the reveal works in .


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## Kuromaku (Jul 22, 2018)

The problem with this movie is that no one really cares about what is going to happen.


The entire conflict has returned to the status quo, and TLJ doubled down on one of the major problems with the sequel trilogy that started with TFA: it's a pointless rehash. You might as well just watch the original trilogy because every thing that appears 'new' is merely the same but in a modern, less well executed shell. Luke was going to save the Jedi but wait, he failed, so now Rey is going to bring back the Jedi. The Empire was beaten back and a new age of freedom was restored until it wasn't and now the First Order is the galactic hegemon. The Resistance was an underground group totally unlike the Rebels until they were basically left alone in their resistance, and have now become the Rebels. Vader was a bad guy until he was redeemed, but wait a moment, his grandson is now a bad guy, and might be redeemed.
No one really cares about the new characters. People like to rag on about Rey being a Sue and all that, but in reality, she's just symptomatic of the larger problem with the new characters: they're barely characters and more a means for the writers to get from one plot point to another, internal consistency and characterization be damned. No one cares about Rey or Poe or Holdo or Rose or Snoke. The only merchandise movers of note are the familiar ones of old. I cared about Fin in TFA, but TLJ didn't do anything all that great with him. I guess Kylo Ren is somewhat interesting, impotent as a villain he may be.

You can make all the excuses you want, but this new trilogy is a mess that's spinning its wheels. ESB ended on a great cliffhanger, as the good guys took some strong hits in the process of living to fight another day on emotional, physical, and spiritual levels. AoTC at least gave us the beginning of the Clone Wars (how exotic) and the promise of Vader's birth. What does TLJ have to offer us that we haven't seen before given that Kylo Ren is now the impotent looking ruler of the second Empire? We already got Luke working to redeem Vader, so forget the Kylo-Rey thing. We already got the Empire finally being beaten, so forget that too.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 23, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> I think it is because there is an unspoken rule in the fandom that any new main characters (who are Force sensitive) _have to be from a special bloodline _('special' being the closest in Star Wars you can get to "divinely conceived"), or related to someone who is a Jedi.
> 
> You know, despite _virtually every single notable EU Old Republic-Era Jedi/Sith, every Jedi Master seen in the Prequel Trilogy and Palpatine himself did not come from bloodlines previously established to be strong in the Force.  _But, apparently, a line gets crossed when it is a non-Skywalker main protagonist in a Star Wars film that doesn't come from a Force-powerful bloodline, yet is still especially gifted in the Force.
> 
> ...


Nobody complained about Revan being a badass.


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## Kuromaku (Jul 23, 2018)

Revan a shit. The only reason people put up with him is because, as a video game protagonist, he has to be a self-insert for the player, which means being a blank slate to project badass qualities onto. Thinking Revan was a good character is symptomatic of brain damage or a severe mental handicap.


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## Gaiash (Jul 23, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> The problem with this movie is that no one really cares about what is going to happen.


Another problem with criticism of the movie is people keep making assumptions like this. If "no one really cares about what is going to happen" how come there's clear evidence of people who do care about what is going to happen?



Kuromaku said:


> it's a pointless rehash. You might as well just watch the original trilogy because every thing that appears 'new' is merely the same but in a modern, less well executed shell.


Except the rehash elements aren't pointless. The main similarities are in the conflict, this makes the Star War feel familiar while the focus is on new characters with new stories to tell while they are in that familiar conflict. In fact trying to use the same solutions as the original trilogy failed, instead of redeeming Kylo the way Luke redeemed Vader Rey only made him a bigger threat.



Kuromaku said:


> No one really cares about the new characters.


Here you go again saying no one when you just mean yourself. Speak to someone who likes the movies (like me) and you'll get a different story. I've seen plenty of people at conventions cosplaying characters from the new films and just recently as SDCC there was the Rally for Rose where you had Rose cosplayers and other people wearing Rose t-shirts gathering together.



Kuromaku said:


> The only merchandise movers of note are the familiar ones of old.


Porgs are a huge merchandise success and they only existed because the set was full of puffins. They're not something from the original trilogy or even something similar to them but new like BB-8, they're alien puffins.


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 23, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> SDCC there was the Rally for Rose where you had Rose cosplayers and other people wearing Rose t-shirts gathering together.


_"I wish I could put my fist through this whole lousy, beautiful town convention." 
_
you mean to tell me all these degenerates were gathered in one place and no-one purged them?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 23, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> Revan a shit. The only reason people put up with him is because, as a video game protagonist, he has to be a self-insert for the player, which means being a blank slate to project badass qualities onto. Thinking Revan was a good character is symptomatic of brain damage or a severe mental handicap.


He is just the most high profile character i could think off not in the OT and the prequels. There are plenty of others not related to Jedi who were embraced by the fandom.


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> they only existed because the set was full of puffins.



Not even remotely true. Rian repeatedly apparently wanted to remove the Porgs or at least have some of them killed off because he even couldn't really stand them and said they didn't add to the film and each time they did screenings with Kathleen, she insisted they remain in the film. In fact the main reason was because they made her "giggle". They were in the film because of Kathleen Kennedy, and it says something when even Rian Johnson didn't like them that it took executive meddling to keep them in there.


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## Skaddix (Jul 23, 2018)

Fuck The Porgs…..I put up with Ewoks

Reactions: Like 1


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 23, 2018)

yeah, I vilify RJ for his shit writing and defacement of Star Wars...

but at the end of the day he's just the Vader to his Empress, K. Kennedy; she's the real villain behind the current state of things.

Hopefully, Dave SkyFiloni, under tutelage of Master Iger, will one day rise up and toss her ass down a ventilation shaft so the galaxy can be free of her tyranny.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Suigetsu (Jul 23, 2018)

Clone wars was over rated, it was a show for children but people liked it anyway. I am not fond of the retcons that they did there.


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 23, 2018)

you don't go to war with the chosen one you want, you go with the one you got...

so even if i gotta sit through live action force-wolves or w/e other shit Filoni has a fetish for, I'm gonna accept it because at least the man knows his Star Wars.


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## Gaiash (Jul 23, 2018)

Fang said:


> Not even remotely true. Rian repeatedly apparently wanted to remove the Porgs or at least have some of them killed off because he even couldn't really stand them and said they didn't add to the film and each time they did screenings with Kathleen, she insisted they remain in the film. In fact the main reason was because they made her "giggle". They were in the film because of Kathleen Kennedy, and it says something when even Rian Johnson didn't like them that it took executive meddling to keep them in there.


And the reason they were there in the first place was because the set was full of puffins. I don't even see how this works as a counter argument because you mention Porgs already being a thing to have the disagreement about keeping in or not, that means they already created them.


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> And the reason they were there in the first place was because the set was full of puffins. I don't even see how this works as a counter argument because you mention Porgs already being a thing to have the disagreement about keeping in or not, that means they already created them.



They were created, then they realized they could edit them out and most of the production staff wanted them out which is the thing I said, lmao. You aren't getting it that they, the director included, knew the Porgs were dumb. And "hugely" successful is definitely not true merchandise wise either.


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## Gaiash (Jul 23, 2018)

Fang said:


> They were created, then they realized they could edit them out and most of the production staff wanted them out which is the thing I said, lmao. You aren't getting it that they, the director included, knew the Porgs were dumb. And "hugely" successful is definitely not true merchandise wise either.


The point I was making was that the Porgs weren't from the original trilogy, they were created to cover up puffins. Then you claimed that was "not even remotely true" and said something that doesn't conflict with the things I said.


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> The point I was making was that the Porgs weren't from the original trilogy, they were created to cover up puffins. Then you claimed that was "not even remotely true" and said something that doesn't conflict with the things I said.



I said "remotely not true" about the sales of Porg shit, the forums is being retarded and didn't show the two quotes when I broke up your post.


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## Kuromaku (Jul 23, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Another problem with criticism of the movie is people keep making assumptions like this. If "no one really cares about what is going to happen" how come there's clear evidence of people who do care about what is going to happen?



A problem with people trying to defend the movie is that said defenders keep making arguments that beg the question. Why are so many viewers turned off? Why is it that only the hardcore fans are still interested big time in what is going to happen? Why is it that the atmosphere around the movies is taking on tones resembling that around the prequels (and I remember those years well. Remember when people were making jokes and taking bets on how hard they expected Revenge of the Sith to suck before it even came out?)?



> Except the rehash elements aren't pointless. The main similarities are in the conflict, this makes the Star War feel familiar while the focus is on new characters with new stories to tell while they are in that familiar conflict. In fact trying to use the same solutions as the original trilogy failed, instead of redeeming Kylo the way Luke redeemed Vader Rey only made him a bigger threat.



What kind of mental gymnastics are you using? I haven't seen this kind of whatthefuckery since I last had to deal with marketing execs at work. What new stories do they have that are worth telling. How will the story change if the aim is to ultimately revive the Jedi, beat the Empire, and redeem Kylo (even if he might not survive the process)? It's a different shell, but the same ingredients are there.



> Here you go again saying no one when you just mean yourself. Speak to someone who likes the movies (like me) and you'll get a different story. I've seen plenty of people at conventions cosplaying characters from the new films and just recently as SDCC there was the Rally for Rose where you had Rose cosplayers and other people wearing Rose t-shirts gathering together.



And here you go again? Again?

Speak to a small sample size of one poster on an anime board, and you'll get all sorts of stories. Again though, note the large sample of divisiveness.

Also, it's nice that you saw one rally based around the fandom flavor of the week. But here's the thing: how large was the sample size? Was it sizeable enough to extrapolate, or was it like the same for any unpopular character who might still have some fans (even if not many). How much merchandise do the new characters move? Why are merchandise sales for the franchise as a whole down? What is iconic about these new characters? You don't see anyone becoming the new Han Solo or Darth Vader, characters who became modern archetypes in their own right.



> Porgs are a huge merchandise success and they only existed because the set was full of puffins. They're not something from the original trilogy or even something similar to them but new like BB-8, they're alien puffins.



Can you get me the numbers to verify their success? Why are so many news stories about how the franchise seems to be hurting in that area?




Between the divisiveness of TLJ, Solo being a financial flop, and rumors of potential shake-ups at Lucasfilm, it's clear that Disney isn't happy with their investment. Bad enough that they sank 4B, the fact that the remaining principal value then has to have interest applied over time, the increased spending on films, parks, and merchandise, to say nothing of the opportunity costs of spending that money on one franchise instead of other properties. The brand was mismanaged, and honestly, it's telling that they're trying to win back the crowd with Clone Wars. I'm not invested in the brand failing given my stock interests, but it's clear that something has to give.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 23, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> A problem with people trying to defend the movie is that said defenders keep making arguments that beg the question. Why are so many viewers turned off? Why is it that only the hardcore fans are still interested big time in what is going to happen? Why is it that the atmosphere around the movies is taking on tones resembling that around the prequels (and I remember those years well. Remember when people were making jokes and taking bets on how hard they expected Revenge of the Sith to suck before it even came out?)?



Careful, Fang loves those prequels.  

I liked "The Last Jedi", but is anyone really disputing that a lot of people hated it? Is anyone disputing that the atmosphere amongst the fandom is bleak? Ultimately, the problem I think people are having is that the original trilogy was lightning in a bottle. Everything about it is so beautifully simple and charming and somehow even its flaws don't usually feel like flaws. It just caught fire in a way few things do. You can't really replicate that kind of magic. George Lucas, the original creator, failed to do so. Disney is failing to do so. I personally don't think anyone can make a truly great Star Wars movie anymore. Maybe great Star Wars books, comics, games, TV shows, but not a great movie. 

We can debate whether the movie is good or not till we're blue in the faces...and we kind of have... "The Empire Strikes Back" rubbed people the wrong way upon release, but now is a classic and maybe 10-20 years from now, "The Last Jedi" will be remembered a lot more fondly once we start looking at it from an objective standpoint. Or maybe it will be like "The Phantom Menace", where eventually the fans start to look back at embarrassment upon the movie they originally supported.

But all it is...is a movie...Some people like it. Some people don't. We don't know the extent of the damage to the brand until Episode 9 comes out and either makes it all worth it, or tanks/under-performs. It's nothing worth getting salty over. 

I will say this...there really isn't much to look forward to now though, is there? Luke and Han are dead and Leia might as well be. Snoke is dead. I personally thought the reveal of Rey's parentage was great, as it fits the theme of the movie, but maybe we shouldn't have learned the truth until Episode 9. All that's left is whether Kylo finds redemption or damnation. I like "The Last Jedi", but maybe Rian Johnson hogged all of the big dramatic moments for himself, leaving little for the filmmakers behind Episode 9 to explore. Luke's death would've been PERFECT for episode 9.


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## Kuromaku (Jul 24, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Careful, Fang loves those prequels.
> 
> I liked "The Last Jedi", but is anyone really disputing that a lot of people hated it? Is anyone disputing that the atmosphere amongst the fandom is bleak? Ultimately, the problem I think people are having is that the original trilogy was lightning in a bottle. Everything about it is so beautifully simple and charming and somehow even its flaws don't usually feel like flaws. It just caught fire in a way few things do. You can't really replicate that kind of magic. George Lucas, the original creator, failed to do so. Disney is failing to do so. I personally don't think anyone can make a truly great Star Wars movie anymore. Maybe great Star Wars books, comics, games, TV shows, but not a great movie



In many respects, Star Wars was the right movie for the right time. A lot of people aren't exactly aware of the context into which the film was released, but at the time, the trends in the American zeitgeist saw an emphasis on cynicism, what with social strife, declining faith in political institutions, a troubled economy, and unpopular foreign policies. Popular culture reflected that, as there as an emphasis on moral greyness, gritty reality, and a willingness to deny happy endings straight out of the glory days of film noir. What we have now is merely a continuation of that.

Star Wars was thus a breath of fresh air. Here was an old fashioned yet futuristic story with idealistic overtones, a seemingly oxymoronic existence that immediately stood out from the crowd. It was a simple fairy tale that replaced the fairies and magical lands with aliens and exotic planets. It called back to old timey space serials and their clunky dialogue while reworking familiar tropes and imagery into something new. In being recognizable, it managed to be a novelty. In short, it was the perfect movie coming out at the perfect time.

Given how I mentioned above that the modern day resembles the context into which the franchise was born, you'd think that going back to the well would work wonders. Unfortunately, SW was one of the first true summer blockbusters, and in an attempt to capture as wide a market as possible, theaters are now flooded with simple action-packed stories that land on the idealistic end of the scale. What was novel no longer stands out. And that has even resulted in people wondering if the franchise should become cynical and morally grey (despite this missing the point of what makes the saga what it is) simply because they have no idea where to take it.



> We can debate whether the movie is good or not till we're blue in the faces...and we kind of have... "The Empire Strikes Back" rubbed people the wrong way upon release, but now is a classic and maybe 10-20 years from now, "The Last Jedi" will be remembered a lot more fondly once we start looking at it from an objective standpoint. Or maybe it will be like "The Phantom Menace", where eventually the fans start to look back at embarrassment upon the movie they originally supported.



As always, time will be the judge, although given the widespread availability of social media and the fact that everyone can offer their opinion on something with much greater ease, I can't help but wonder how much opinions on movies and other works will shift down the line compared to before. In the past, undiscovered masterpieces could remain of niche interest because they weren't as publicized and not as easily available. Now however, word of mouth spreads fast and opinions seem much more quickly set in stone.

While I didn't hate the movie on release and still don't hate it now, I think it's a very uneven and often poorly executed movie that won't age nearly as well as Empire. RJ clearly wanted to make his mark, but a lot of creative decisions (even a really minor moment like that Matrix shot with Luke sticks out poorly) and attempts to emulate George Lucas (Rose's line about putting a fist through the "stinking" casino planet call to mind old time dialogue that Lucas was in love with) just feel oddly thought out. Empire was controversial because of how different it was, but looking at it now, you can see that these differences were for the better and pushed the story forward in interesting directions while lending depth to the greater franchise. TLJ wasn't nearly as different as advertised, given that it tried to emulate ESB in forcing its heroes and villains to suffer failure after failure to force them through apotheosis.

I made a comment about TLJ being "middlebrow" in the other thread, and it kind of applies to my issues with it. It seems to want to be smarter than its lowbrow source material, but it's actually not all that smart, kind of like a Zach Snyder film. A smarter move would have been embracing its lowbrow nature while also referencing its higher brow elements, namely the Hero's Journey, in a way that would have been clever. Rey not being of a great bloodline and nothing more than a random nobody who lucked out when the Force pumped her full of steroids because Luke was having a conniption would have been a smart way to introduce a storyline that acknowledges criticisms of Campbell's model. If Luke represents the traditional journey, then Rey (and broom boy) could subvert the criticism of this implicitly calling upon strong men to save the day by having it made clear that it's not one hero who saves everyone, but everyone else working together to find the heroes within themselves to bring peace to the galaxy and balance back to the Force.

The problem with my idea at the end there, is if that is what they want to go for, then Luke has to be alive to hand this mission down to all the everyday people, thus effecting the transition from the traditional hero to the mass of heroes. For Rey to do so would just make her look like the newest special snowflake.



> I will say this...there really isn't much to look forward to now though, is there? Luke and Han are dead and Leia might as well be. Snoke is dead. I personally thought the reveal of Rey's parentage was great, as it fits the theme of the movie, but maybe we shouldn't have learned the truth until Episode 9. All that's left is whether Kylo finds redemption or damnation. I like "The Last Jedi", but maybe Rian Johnson hogged all of the big dramatic moments for himself, leaving little for the filmmakers behind Episode 9 to explore. Luke's death would've been PERFECT for episode 9.



One of my favorite recent RLM moments was when their review compared killing off Luke and Han, only for Carrie to die to someone murdering John, Paul, and George:


But yeah, they hit the nail on the head. Where can the story even go from there that is actually interesting?


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## Gaiash (Jul 24, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> Why is it that only the hardcore fans are still interested big time in what is going to happen?


It isn't. People who liked the new movies in general are also interested in seeing what happens next, they're not all going to be hardcore fans. I didn't even see the despecialized editions or the Clone Wars pilot movie until last year when I marathoned the whole series leading up to The Last Jedi's release. I'm really behind on Rebels and never got into the CG Clone Wars. I'm not a hardcore fan and I'm excited about what Episode IX has in store.



Kuromaku said:


> What kind of mental gymnastics are you using? I haven't seen this kind of whatthefuckery since I last had to deal with marketing execs at work. What new stories do they have that are worth telling. How will the story change if the aim is to ultimately revive the Jedi, beat the Empire, and redeem Kylo (even if he might not survive the process)? It's a different shell, but the same ingredients are there.


The same ingredients being there doesn't mean there aren't new and interesting things being done with those ingredients. And I could argue which ones are interesting but I know that's not going to go anywhere. I like the movie and you don't, me pointing out the things I like about it isn't going to work as an argument against someone who hated those exact same things.



Kuromaku said:


> Speak to a small sample size of one poster on an anime board, and you'll get all sorts of stories. Again though, note the large sample of divisiveness.


The sample of people being critical of the movie isn't larger, it's louder. Most people who like the new films don't feel the need to stick around talking about it for this long.



Kuromaku said:


> Also, it's nice that you saw one rally based around the fandom flavor of the week. But here's the thing: how large was the sample size? Was it sizeable enough to extrapolate, or was it like the same for any unpopular character who might still have some fans (even if not many).


Big enough to be more that "no one".



Kuromaku said:


> Why are merchandise sales for the franchise as a whole down?





Kuromaku said:


> Can you get me the numbers to verify their success? Why are so many news stories about how the franchise seems to be hurting in that area?


Because people don't buy the same merchandise. Merchandise sales don't do well because companies over estimate how much people are willing to spend. Star Wars releases so much merchandise in several different forms that it's obviously going to split the buyers. And then you throw fan made merchandise into the mix.


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## Kuromaku (Jul 24, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> It isn't. People who liked the new movies in general are also interested in seeing what happens next, they're not all going to be hardcore fans. I didn't even see the despecialized editions or the Clone Wars pilot movie until last year when I marathoned the whole series leading up to The Last Jedi's release. I'm really behind on Rebels and never got into the CG Clone Wars. I'm not a hardcore fan and I'm excited about what Episode IX has in store.



That's fine and dandy. But what of the larger sample size? What proportion of actual viewers actually wants to watch what happens, and what proportion, as with much of my family when we went to see Revenge of the Sith, is planning on seeing what they believe to be the final SW film?



> The sample of people being critical of the movie isn't larger, it's louder. Most people who like the new films don't feel the need to stick around talking about it for this long.



But that goes both ways. What of the group that might not like the film but simply doesn't feel the need to advertise the fact that they didn't care for it? If there is a vocal group that feels the need to advertise, then, based on what I learned from marketers, that means that there likely is a silent group that feels similarly.



> Big enough to be more that "no one".



That was hyperbole for rhetorical purposes. In this case, is this actually a sizeable fandom, or just a small one that would appear for an otherwise unpopular character? Perhaps even a shallower one formed around sympathy for the actress rather than the character?



> Because people don't buy the same merchandise. Merchandise sales don't do well because companies over estimate how much people are willing to spend. Star Wars releases so much merchandise in several different forms that it's obviously going to split the buyers. And then you throw fan made merchandise into the mix.



What kind of argument is that? Can you actually argue against my point, or are you just going to go off on a tangent? Why is this franchise, normally one of the champions of merchandising, starting to suffer? Can you get any numbers to disprove this?


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## dr_shadow (Jul 24, 2018)

Don't get why they had to move up the release date of Solo. 

The Force Awakens - December 2015
Rogue One - December 2016
The Last Jedi - December 2017
Solo - May 2018 
Episode IX - December 2019

Now there's no Star Wars in December 2018! Santa is dead!


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## Fang (Jul 24, 2018)

Because Disney is greedy.


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## dr_shadow (Jul 24, 2018)

Guess I'll just re-watch Solo on Netflix in December and pretend.


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## Gaiash (Jul 24, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> What kind of argument is that? Can you actually argue against my point, or are you just going to go off on a tangent? Why is this franchise, normally one of the champions of merchandising, starting to suffer? Can you get any numbers to disprove this?


Because there's too much merchandise. It spits the audience.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 24, 2018)

mr_shadow said:


> Don't get why they had to move up the release date of Solo.
> 
> The Force Awakens - December 2015
> Rogue One - December 2016
> ...



It probably would've helped it's Box Office returns, as this Summer was too crowded. Would it have made the movie a hit? Probably not, but at least it might've not been a bomb.


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## Fang (Jul 24, 2018)

mr_shadow said:


> Don't get why they had to move up the release date of Solo.
> 
> The Force Awakens - December 2015
> Rogue One - December 2016
> ...



Don't worry IX is going to get ass fucked by Jumanji 2 in Dec 2019 and we'll get to see a flurry of excuses from the usual suspects in this thread when it happens.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Suigetsu (Jul 24, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Because there's too much merchandise. It spits the audience.


There was more merchandise during the time of the prequels and this wasnt happening. Sorry but Disney SW is boring and uninviting.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 24, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> But all it is...is a movie...Some people like it. Some people don't. We don't know the extent of the damage to the brand Luke's death would've been PERFECT for episode 9.



Nah.

The Last Jedi was the injection of fresh the franchise. Already TFA and Rogue One were starting to feel stale.


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## Gaiash (Jul 24, 2018)

Really any argument about merchandise says more about the merchandise itself that what it's of. There's plenty of movies I like that I don't own merchandise for.


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## Kuromaku (Jul 24, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Because there's too much merchandise. It spits the audience.



What in the actual fuck? Merchandise doesn't split an audience. Merchandise is what the audience, with all its varying tastes, consumes. If you don't have a leg to stand on, concede the point and move on.


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## Gaiash (Jul 25, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> What in the actual fuck? Merchandise doesn't split an audience. Merchandise is what the audience, with all its varying tastes, consumes. If you don't have a leg to stand on, concede the point and move on.


I mean people don't buy the same merchandise. But since that one isn't getting through to you he's another point, there's not much that's new to buy. Most of the ships, outfits and weapons are the same as Force Awakens. Anyone who already bought stuff for The Force Awakens is probably only going to add a couple extra characters to what they already have which isn't going to impact sales that much.


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## Kuromaku (Jul 25, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> I mean people don't buy the same merchandise. But since that one isn't getting through to you he's another point, there's not much that's new to buy. Most of the ships, outfits and weapons are the same as Force Awakens. Anyone who already bought stuff for The Force Awakens is probably only going to add a couple extra characters to what they already have which isn't going to impact sales that much.



Congratulations, you managed to write out an argument so stupid I actually came close to falling out of my chair upon reading it IRL. Since the basic logic, or rather the lack of it, in your argument isn't getting through your skull somehow, I'll explain it as simply as possible. Ready?

Merchandise is merchandise. People will sometimes buy duplicates if they are hardcore enough fans. Those who are not will at least buy new models if they are of interest. Meanwhile, new fans will buy things willy nilly.

Therefore, by that simple series of premises, a popular enough merchandise-heavy property like SW, which managed to move a lot of items even when new movies were not coming out should ideally be able to move plenty of said merch to hardcore consumers, casual ones, and new ones. The fact that this isn't happening conveys a disturbing message: that people simply don't want to buy the merchandise. And if they don't want to buy the merchandise, then that means that people simply are not invested enough in the property to want to consume more of it.

That's basic sales 101.


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## Pocalypse (Jul 25, 2018)

Fang said:


> Don't worry IX is going to get ass fucked by Jumanji 2 in Dec 2019



Oh shit, good call


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 25, 2018)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Nah.
> 
> The Last Jedi was the injection of fresh the franchise. Already TFA and Rogue One were starting to feel stale.


Last Jedi felt just as stale. Way more stale than Rogue One.


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## Gaiash (Jul 25, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> Congratulations, you managed to write out an argument so stupid I actually came close to falling out of my chair upon reading it IRL.


Ah good, that means it was a smart argument. Nothing makes me feel smart like being called stupid by stupid people.



Kuromaku said:


> And if they don't want to buy the merchandise, then that means that people simply are not invested enough in the property to want to consume more of it.


Or they just can't afford to be invested in the merchandise for every movie they like, people have other ways of expressing their enjoyment of things than buying merchandise.


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## Kuromaku (Jul 25, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Ah good, that means it was a smart argument. Nothing makes me feel smart like being called stupid by stupid people.



Funny, I'd say it was the opposite. After all, I never called you "stupid", merely your argument. You ready to come up with a smart argument instead of resorting to name calling because you don't have anything meaningful to say?



> Or they just can't afford to be invested in the merchandise for every movie they like, people have other ways of expressing their enjoyment of things than buying merchandise.



And yet we both know that your argument holds no water so now you are grasping at straws. People write fanfiction and draw fanart, but they also express their fandom by buying merchandise. If people aren't buying the merchandise, then maybe the fandom isn't as strong as it used to be.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Next time before you post, actually come up with a good argument. I highly suggest doing some research, because so far, you haven't done anything close to making a strong argument in favor of this point.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 25, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> Funny, I'd say it was the opposite. After all, I never called you "stupid", merely your argument. You ready to come up with a smart argument instead of resorting to name calling because you don't have anything meaningful to say?
> 
> .



For what it's worth, the hatedom has been incredibly nasty here, so it's easy for a fan to assume they're being insulted, lol.


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## Gaiash (Jul 26, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> And yet we both know that your argument holds no water so now you are grasping at straws.


No I'm not, see here's an important detail about my argument; I'm someone who really liked The Last Jedi that doesn't own any merchandise for it outside of a poster I got for free at the cinema. It's my 3rd favourite Star Wars movie (and choosing between it and Force Awakens for 2nd was difficult even after the rewatch) and my #1 film of 2017. So no this isn't grasping at straws, I'm arguing MY experience and that of other people I know in person.



Kuromaku said:


> People write fanfiction and draw fanart, but they also express their fandom by buying merchandise. If people aren't buying the merchandise, then maybe the fandom isn't as strong as it used to be.


Or maybe they're just bigger fans of something else. I've spent a fair amount of this year saving up for a Nintendo Switch and around the start of the year the main thing I was invested in getting was Japanese DVDs of the 2nd and 3rd Pokémon movies.

Also maybe it's just the merchandise that isn't as good, I mean look at these two Pop figures

I like Rey's new outfit and all but the Pop from The Force Awakens has a much cooler pose then the one from The Last Jedi so when I get more space for Pop figures it'll be the Force Awakens one that I'll want to add.


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## Kuromaku (Jul 26, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> No I'm not, see here's an important detail about my argument; I'm someone who really liked The Last Jedi that doesn't own any merchandise for it outside of a poster I got for free at the cinema. It's my 3rd favourite Star Wars movie (and choosing between it and Force Awakens for 2nd was difficult even after the rewatch) and my #1 film of 2017. So no this isn't grasping at straws, I'm arguing MY experience and that of other people I know in person.



So what you're saying is that your argument holds water because you, a sample size of one plus a limited set that likely shares the same general interests given that they belong within a particular social group, comprise a large enough sample to apply to a general argument regarding merchandise consumption?

You notice a problem there?



> Or maybe they're just bigger fans of something else. I've spent a fair amount of this year saving up for a Nintendo Switch and around the start of the year the main thing I was invested in getting was Japanese DVDs of the 2nd and 3rd Pokémon movies.
> 
> Also maybe it's just the merchandise that isn't as good, I mean look at these two Pop figures
> 
> I like Rey's new outfit and all but the Pop from The Force Awakens has a much cooler pose then the one from The Last Jedi so when I get more space for Pop figures it'll be the Force Awakens one that I'll want to add.



Or maybe, this isn't a good argument and we both know it. You are a limited sample size. You are not necessarily an ideal type for the target audience. Your argument means nothing because you and I can't properly extrapolate from it. What does comprise a good argument are the larger trends I posted links to earlier, because they reflect data of significant enough size that you can do a proper reading of it.


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 26, 2018)

So this hit me earlier (again?)
disregarding everything else wrong with this trilogy:
we're going into the 3rd movie, the finale, and our main characters (ReyFinnPoe) are less than garbage.

no character development, no real backstory or depth of motivation...and definitely nothing of interest going forward.

What a creatively bankrupt, corporate hack-job this franchise has become. I think I'm actively cheering for this shit to fail; but spectacularly so.

this bullshit has turned me to the darkside


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## Gaiash (Jul 26, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> So what you're saying is that your argument holds water because you, a sample size of one plus a limited set that likely shares the same general interests given that they belong within a particular social group, comprise a large enough sample to apply to a general argument regarding merchandise consumption?


I'm just an example, I'm not talking about "sample sizes" just various scenarios where people like something but don't own much/any merchandise. I'm not saying people all have these same reasons, they're just examples.


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## Atlas (Jul 26, 2018)

Seiko said:


> ^
> at least Rouge One was pretty good !



Ftfy


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## Kuromaku (Jul 26, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> I'm just an example, I'm not talking about "sample sizes" just various scenarios where people like something but don't own much/any merchandise. I'm not saying people all have these same reasons, they're just examples.



Then what is the point of your argument? Sample sizes matter because they can be used to interpret data, the substance of which indicates that merchandise sales related to the franchise are suffering a decline. Anecdotal evidence and maybes are nothing but that. Unless you can extrapolate from them by increasing the sample size, it's nothing more than an empty theory.


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## Gaiash (Jul 26, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> Then what is the point of your argument?


To provide examples of other mindsets people who don't buy merchandise have. Also practice.


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## Kuromaku (Jul 26, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> To provide examples of other mindsets people who don't buy merchandise have. Also practice.



Then it's a pointless argument, as I just made clear repeatedly. If you don't have a real argument that would actually apply in a debate, save us both time and move on from it. It's not good practice to waste your time on a hill that simply isn't worth dying on. Life's too short to expend on such inanity.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 27, 2018)




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## Aeternus (Jul 28, 2018)

Really? Curious to see what are they going to do with her there.


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## MShadows (Jul 28, 2018)

"These Disney fuckers forced me to appear in this stupid movie as a Force Ghost, otherwise they'd tarnish my character even more..." 



- Luke Skywalker, Force Ghost - _Star Wars Episode IX_​


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## Aeternus (Jul 28, 2018)

Yeah, because otherwise they would do his character justice, right? lol


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jul 29, 2018)

Ghost Jedis is of the few things that majorly hinder my enjoyment of the franchise. Not cuz it's dumb. lelno, there are dumber things. But it's because the Ghost Jedi's appearances and powers are completely arbitrary and not at all consistent. Like what's stopping Ghost Yoda, Obi-wan, Luke, and Anakin from gang-skull banging Kylo in his sleep? I'm probably missing a huge point in the Jedis trying to balance the universe or some other shit. But when there's a literal genocide brewing, the choice should be obvious.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 29, 2018)



Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Jul 29, 2018)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Ghost Jedis is of the few things that majorly hinder my enjoyment of the franchise. Not cuz it's dumb. lelno, there are dumber things. But it's because the Ghost Jedi's appearances and powers are completely arbitrary and not at all consistent. Like what's stopping Ghost Yoda, Obi-wan, Luke, and Anakin from gang-skull banging Kylo in his sleep? I'm probably missing a huge point in the Jedis trying to balance the universe or some other shit. But when there's a literal genocide brewing, the choice should be obvious.



The real question is...why would you allow the image of Ghost Yoda, Obi-Wan, Luke and Anakin from gang-skull banging Kylo in his sleep to enter your head?


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 29, 2018)

There needs to be more of Rey, Finn, and Poe travelling and fighting together as a GROUP. There isn't nearly the same dynamic between the three as the OT trio. They've just been kind of all doing their own thing.


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 29, 2018)

ATastyMuffin said:


> There needs to be more of Rey, Finn, and Poe travelling and fighting together as a GROUP. There isn't nearly the same dynamic between the three as the OT trio. They've just been kind of all doing their own thing.


Casino shit = boring filler
Space Mutiny = pointless sub-plot
Island adventures = insulting storytelling

...will three wrongs really make a right?





Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Ghost Jedis is of the few things that majorly hinder my enjoyment of the franchise. Not cuz it's dumb. lelno, there are dumber things. But it's because the Ghost Jedi's appearances and powers are completely arbitrary and not at all consistent. Like what's stopping Ghost Yoda, Obi-wan, Luke, and Anakin from gang-skull banging Kylo in his sleep? I'm probably missing a huge point in the Jedis trying to balance the universe or some other shit. But when there's a literal genocide brewing, the choice should be obvious.


it was fine_until RJ decided to subvert our intelligence with that Yoda scene.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 29, 2018)

ATastyMuffin said:


> There needs to be more of Rey, Finn, and Poe travelling and fighting together as a GROUP. There isn't nearly the same dynamic between the three as the OT trio. They've just been kind of all doing their own thing.



Yeah. This was one issue I had with the OT as well, as I thought Han, Luke and Leia had great all around chemistry, but spent most of the sequels apart (Luke and Leia had some time together, Han and Leia had some time together, but it always seemed like Han and Luke stopped sharing the screen after awhile).


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## GhibliFox (Jul 29, 2018)

Don't mess this one up, please!


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 29, 2018)

Don't see how they can dig themselves out of the hole they are in plot wise.


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## GhibliFox (Jul 29, 2018)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Don't see how they can dig themselves out of the hole they are in plot wise.



If they're smart they will bring back Luke and Snoke... but we'll see.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 29, 2018)

GhibliFox said:


> If they're smart they will bring back Luke and Snoke... but we'll see.



Yeah, they are needed to make sense of the events.
But they only have one movie and way too much stuff to cram into it.

TLJ being limited to only a couple of days really screwed things up. 
I fear a spiderman 3 situation where the plot became a clusterfuck by the amount of things they put in.


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## GhibliFox (Jul 29, 2018)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Yeah, they are needed to make sense of the events.
> But they only have one movie and way too much stuff to cram into it.
> 
> TLJ being limited to only a couple of days really screwed things up.
> I fear a spiderman 3 situation where the plot became a clusterfuck by the amount of things they put in.



It would be cool if Snoke died on purpose to take over Kylo Ren's mind or something like that and maybe Luke faked his death to go into hiding so that he may fight Snoke when the time comes but maybe the plot is just going to be a mess and we're really going to just get a mediocre ending to the trilogy.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 29, 2018)

Apparently they've been teasing Kylo Ren piloting the Falcon. Will it mean he turns good relatively early on? Or will he steal it? Would be interesting seeing it piloted by the villain.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 29, 2018)

GhibliFox said:


> If they're smart they will bring back Luke and Snoke... but we'll see.



No, thanks. Then the ending would just be inevitably a Luke vs. Snoke uber CG showdown with explosions and whatever Dragon Ball nonsense fans have desperately clung to in their dreams.

Keep it between Rey and Kylo. They are the main characters of this trilogy, after all.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 29, 2018)

I also don't want them to just resurrect them, as it would render "TLJ" literally pointless. Like the movie or not, it did progress the overarching story and for better or worse, Episode 9 cannot rely on the traditional Star Wars formula. It has to try something new and live or die by it. 

But they do need to do something with Kylo Ren. As is, he's simply not threatening enough to be the final villain.


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 30, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Filler? It has a pretty big effect on the rest of the film, their failure means Holdo's plan is exposed the First Order and even more of the resistance members are killed.


let's briefly take a look at this shitshow: 
-Finn is the magic space janitor; he cleans the toilets nearest to all the most plot critical First Order devices. 
-Needs code breaker for w/e reason because droids (fucking AI) can't do this anymore for "reasons"...but humans somehow can. (RJ u stupid cunt)
-They call Butthole Eyes during armed labor dispute (Mazz was keeping slaves no doubt), get location of _best-o codo bureika_ in the galaxy off the top of her head. W/E no big deal.
-mind numbing stupidity ensues; parking hi-jinx, free animals that will just get re-captured, ignore child slave labor etc etc etc etc (RJ u stupid cunt)

nvm this is a fruitless endeavor ...I don't give a darn about Admiral Gender Studies "plan" or fodder resistance members (who didn't matter because they didn't actually do anything[I still remember fucking Porkins and Wedge btw.]) getting killed. 

Shit was poorly written filler.






> Do you think it's pointless because they don't succeed or just because you don't like it? Because you're aware this was the subplot the First Order was focusing on the most right?


it's pointless because _"Hey, Poe...you're my 2nd in command right? here's my poorly thought out plan pst pst pst. No need for mutiny m'kay." _
Also, has the stupidity of a hyperspace capable fleet of ships not being able to catch up with a single cruiser actually hit you yet? or how about the fact that 3 fighters nearly destroyed it...but were called back for "reasons"?
(RJ u stupid cunt; learn to space, asshole)

just like the previous casino plot, i could write for hours about every single terrible aspect of every scene, _ad nauseum..._but i'll spare us both that tedium.




> At least this one is just your opinion.


no, no...it's shit too. In so many ways.
It's just that explaining the intricacies of good storytelling to people so invested in bad storytelling is like describing color to someone born blind.

but by all means, assume that I'm just jilted that Luke didn't swing his laser sword around like an 80's action hero.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 1, 2018)




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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 1, 2018)




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## Fang (Aug 1, 2018)

Anyone that calls The Last Jedi a "breath of fresh air" needs to be chemically castrated and permanently sterilized to prevent them from passing on their genetics and further diluting the human gene pool.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 1, 2018)

Fang said:


> Anyone that calls The Last Jedi a "breath of fresh air" needs to be chemically castrated and permanently sterilized to prevent them from passing on their genetics and further diluting the human gene pool.



Yeah, that's almost as bad as being a Star Wars prequel lover...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gaiash (Aug 1, 2018)

Fang, calm down. It's just a movie.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 1, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, that's almost as bad as being a Star Wars prequel lover...


say what you will about the PT, your criticisms aren't invalid; but it had a vision and told the story it wanted to tell.

TLJ takes everything JarJar Abrams tried to plant in TFA, uproots it, burns it and salts the field.


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Fang, calm down. It's just a movie.



A very bad movie.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gaiash (Aug 1, 2018)

Fang said:


> A very bad movie.


In your opinion. In mine it's a very good movie.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> In your opinion. In mine it's a very good movie.



>-77% drop
>first weekend

Lmao okay.


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## Gaiash (Aug 1, 2018)

Fang said:


> >-77% drop
> >first weekend
> 
> Lmao okay.


What does any of that have to do with my opinion?


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> What does any of that have to do with my opinion?



Opinions are irrelevant next to facts. And TLJ is pure shit.


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## Gaiash (Aug 1, 2018)

Fang said:


> Opinions are irrelevant next to facts. And TLJ is pure shit.


That's an opinion Fang. I understand the confusion since it's your opinion.


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> That's an opinion Fang. I understand the confusion since it's your opinion.



Wrong.


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (Aug 1, 2018)

Fang said:


> Opinions are irrelevant next to facts. And TLJ is pure shit.



I mean, that just means his opinion is pure shit


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## Ghost_of_Gashir (Aug 1, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> In your opinion.



I only speak the facts, ma'am.


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## Gaiash (Aug 1, 2018)

Ghost_of_Gashir said:


> I only speak the facts, ma'am.


So you're confused too.


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> In your opinion.



Lmao.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 1, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> say what you will about the PT, your criticisms aren't invalid; but it had a vision and told the story it wanted to tell.
> 
> TLJ takes everything JarJar Abrams tried to plant in TFA, uproots it, burns it and salts the field.



True, but the prequels contain the line "That's so wizard, Ani!", which I'm pretty sure gave me psoriasis. 

@Gaiash Don't bother. Fang lost his shit when I talked bad about the prequels. He is insecure about his own opinions, so gets his kicks attacking yours.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 2, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> True, but the prequels contain the line "That's so wizard, Ani!", which I'm pretty sure gave me psoriasis.
> 
> @Gaiash Don't bother. Fang lost his shit when I talked bad about the prequels. He is insecure about his own opinions, so gets his kicks attacking yours.


Losing his shit once disqualifies from this discussion?

Why?


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## MartialHorror (Aug 2, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Losing his shit once disqualifies from this discussion?
> 
> Why?



It's not a discussion. He's responding with 'lmao' and 'wrong', as if those words are worth the post paste. He's acting like a snob by calling other peoples opinions shit, saying its "fact", but cries when his own tastes are under fire. He loves saying things like "You ignore things to serve your narrative", but insisted that the prequels suffered no real backlash. He's just really bad at this and it's weird seeing the other haters kowtow to him as if he is their Master.

Even you, Kamal, folded on the prequel hate as soon as he turned his wrath onto you. Why? You've always struck me as someone who does not give a shit as to what others think.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 2, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> It's not a discussion. He's responding with 'lmao' and 'wrong', as if those words are worth the post paste. He's acting like a snob by calling other peoples opinions shit, saying its "fact", but cries when his own tastes are under fire. He loves saying things like "You ignore things to serve your narrative", but insisted that the prequels suffered no real backlash. He's just really bad at this and it's weird seeing the other haters kowtow to him as if he is their Master.
> 
> Even you, Kamal, folded on the prequel hate as soon as he turned his wrath onto you. Why? You've always struck me as someone who does not give a shit as to what others think.



Even you, Kamal, folded on the prequel hate as soon as he turned his wrath onto you. Why? You've always struck me as someone who does not give a shit as to what others think.

Where?


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## Fang (Aug 2, 2018)

When did I lose my shit?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Aug 2, 2018)

Prequel meme's are an unending comedic goldmine.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aruka (Aug 2, 2018)

There's no way I'm not going to see it, so... Just take my money.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 2, 2018)

Sounds like Luke is going to be busier than the average Force Ghost in Episode IX.


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 2, 2018)

Jake, Jake is going to be busier.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 2, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Even you, Kamal, folded on the prequel hate as soon as he turned his wrath onto you. Why? You've always struck me as someone who does not give a shit as to what others think.
> 
> Where?



I think it was in "Did the Star Wars sequels vindicate the prequels thread"? 



Fang said:


> When did I lose my shit?



When I criticized the prequels. You freaked out and started accusing me of 'poisoning the well'.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 2, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> I think it was in "Did the Star Wars sequels vindicate the prequels thread"?
> 
> 
> 
> When I criticized the prequels. You freaked out and started accusing me of 'poisoning the well'.


Sorry, i cannot answer without seeing a link.

People poison the well here all the time. I hardly see it as losing it.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Aug 2, 2018)



Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Aug 2, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Sorry, i cannot answer without seeing a link.
> 
> People poison the well here all the time. I hardly see it as losing it.



I aint going to waste time searching it for you. I used the 'poisoning the well' example because that was the first time I realized he had a real issue with me. We had a very lengthy argument, where he grew incredibly hostile because I wasn't impressed with Ewan McGregor's performance as Obi Wan Kenobi in the prequels. Cue insults, accusations, bizarre tangents, distortion of facts, etc from Fang's side of the argument. If you want to read about it, search for the "Obi Wan spin-off" thread. If you don't care, then don't...My post was directed towards Gaiash, not you. 


So...you're trying to say that Fang- or the fandom in general- is sexually attracted to Jar Jar Binks? 

Meh, I'll ship it.


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## Suigetsu (Aug 3, 2018)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Prequel meme's are an unending comedic goldmine.


To be fair my headcanon on this matter was:
Padme had suffered internal injury by anakin but the only thing keeping her alive was the force power of her twin children. Once they where given birth, they could no longer sustain Padme and so she passed away.

Maybe her Heart was indeed internally broken, and ceased to function once the kids where given birth.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 3, 2018)

Fang said:


> So MA is making things up as usual, neat.
> 
> 
> 
> And still better than the meme Royal Guard snoozefeast "fight".



Kylo stabs the ground for no reason and the guard follows up by striking the fucking lightsaber instead of going for Kylo's head or heck, his arm 

what's worse is he's even preparing to strike right at the back, launches forward and retardedly decides to aim low towards Kylo's lightsaber


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## Fang (Aug 3, 2018)

Pocalypse said:


> Kylo stabs the ground for no reason and the guard follows up by striking the fucking lightsaber instead of going for Kylo's head or heck, his arm
> 
> what's worse is he's even preparing to strike right at the back, launches forward and retardedly decides to aim low towards Kylo's lightsaber



If you tweet this at Rian Johnson to ask his logic he'll probably call you a toxic man-baby or something.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 3, 2018)

Fang said:


> If you tweet this at Rian Johnson to ask his logic he'll probably call you a toxic man-baby or something.



Not a true SW fan

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 3, 2018)

Fang said:


> So MA is making things up as usual, neat.
> 
> 
> 
> And still better than the meme Royal Guard snoozefeast "fight".


Is it?

Everything sucked but that fight was kinda  fine.


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## Fang (Aug 3, 2018)

Yeah, it is. I would say having a bunch of dudes who are 99% covered in red, with the sequence starting in tacky slow motion in a giant red void with anime tier unironically cringy fighting is pretty bad. You see some of those dudes literally roll out of the frame and others in the background attacking literally the thin air. I don't know who okay'd this but its hilarious.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 3, 2018)

Hey, remember that the prequels also had the "I have the high ground" moment, almost as if Lucas had forgotten how "The Phantom Menace" ended.


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## Zef (Aug 3, 2018)

Fang said:


> So MA is making things up as usual, neat.
> 
> 
> 
> And still better than the meme Royal Guard snoozefeast "fight".





Pocalypse said:


> Kylo stabs the ground for no reason and the guard follows up by striking the fucking lightsaber instead of going for Kylo's head or heck, his arm
> 
> what's worse is he's even preparing to strike right at the back, launches forward and retardedly decides to aim low towards Kylo's lightsaber


Damn, I just realized how shit the fighting is.

The guards and Rey/Kylo aren't even touching each other. How does this film have a Disney funded budget yet the fight choreography is inferior to the prequels??


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## MartialHorror (Aug 3, 2018)

The choreography in that fight scene is pretty bad, but for what it's worth, it's the same kind of stuff that the OT did, where it looks like they're play sword fighting. It's harder to excuse now, as the OT has the excuse of utilizing new effects techniques, but the prequel's choreography was just as impractical and silly...and sometimes got in the way of storytelling (ie: the "I have the high ground" scene). 

You can tell in "The Phantom Menace" that they're deliberately missing. Like Obi Wan or Darth Maul would aim OVER their heads, even before the opponent starts to dodge. They will twirl and flip around for no reason. 

So let's not pretend that weak light saber choreography is anything new.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 3, 2018)

Rian Johnson must be transferring funds to MH's Paypal account because he's always at his beck and call


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## The Runner (Aug 3, 2018)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Prequel meme's are an unending comedic goldmine.


That’s true


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## Fang (Aug 3, 2018)

Sir Jogga said:


> That’s true


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## Kuromaku (Aug 3, 2018)

The high ground moment actually makes a lot of sense if you view it within the context of Obi-Wan's character. He knows that there is advantage to the having the high ground, but somehow caught Maul flatfooted. Here, he knows how Anakin might try the same trick he did, so he's well prepared.

The fight against the guards is not all that great, and was really lacking in tension even when I was seeing it the first time. The aforementioned choreography aside, you can tell that they didn't take the time for re-shoots even when it would have behooved them to, as in the part where a guard has Rey's arms busy, then takes their knife to cut her midsection only for said knife to literally disappear through the magic of the Force sloppy CGI.


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 3, 2018)

focusing solely on saber combat is a mistake if you're a space wizard; if Anni had been more well rounded he would have just tossed a lava wave at Obi and ended it there


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 3, 2018)




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## MartialHorror (Aug 3, 2018)

Pocalypse said:


> Rian Johnson must be transferring funds to MH's Paypal account because he's always at his beck and call



Yeah, because I didn't totally just call the choreography in TLJ 'pretty bad'. I am totally being paid to say that.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 6, 2018)

Pocalypse said:


> Kylo stabs the ground for no reason and the guard follows up by striking the fucking lightsaber instead of going for Kylo's head or heck, his arm
> 
> what's worse is he's even preparing to strike right at the back, launches forward and retardedly decides to aim low towards Kylo's lightsaber



I mean, it's not like he wasn't also ducking his head to avoid one guard's strike at the same time, and it's not like Force wielders have precognitive vision.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Aug 6, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> I mean, it's not like he wasn't also ducking his head to avoid one guard's strike at the same time, and it's not like Force wielders have precognitive vision.



Man having tunnel vision must be amazing to miss out on everything else going on wrong in there.

>guards take turns literally attacking Kylo
>anime style retarded lightsaber stab to the ground for literally no reason
>a guard strikes at it for no reason more than enough time after his action was already telegraphed to anyone who isn't brain dead or mentally retarded
>several of the guards on the side just rolling out of the frame and attacking thin air

Man the scope of DIDF is hilarious to the reaches you guys will grasp at straws here.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 6, 2018)

Fang said:


> Man having tunnel vision must be amazing to miss out on everything else going on wrong in there.
> 
> >guards take turns literally attacking Kylo
> >anime style retarded lightsaber stab to the ground for literally no reason
> ...



I have no problem conceding that the choreography makes no sense.

I just want you to admit that it has never made any sense. The prequels also had a lot of silly attacks and maneuvers that served no practical function. All of them are hilariously telegraphed.

I just re-watched the original movie and there's this funny moment when Obi Wan Kenobi spins around, but Sir Alec Guinness is obviously too old to do it convincingly, so it looks slow and awkward Vader for some reason doesn't stab him in the back right there. So it's not like any of this is new...

except that one guard suddenly losing one of his blades...I don't remember that kind of blunder being in any of the previous films....


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## Xhominid (Aug 6, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> I have no problem conceding that the choreography makes no sense.
> 
> I just want you to admit that it has never made any sense. The prequels also had a lot of silly attacks and maneuvers that served no practical function. All of them are hilariously telegraphed.
> 
> ...



No, the prequels was criticized(quite stupidly in my opinion) in the fact that the sword fights felt more like dances(which... is actually try in most cases. The only times most sword fights aren't dances are ironically battles against Knights... and instead, they are full on brawls.
The Prequels deal with lots of Flynning and Flourishes but considering the world of the Jedi, it would make sense that these fighting styles are well beyond the typical fighting style that we know of and should be comparable to dances.

Hell, I even understand that the OT and PT does their fights differently because they are either people who got old or are inexperienced.
The ST in most cases just feels off as it tries to be both but fails miserably in every case, especially with the Throne Room fight.


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## Fang (Aug 6, 2018)

I don't have to admit to anything because I never claimed the PT fight choreography was perfect but I'll take this:

 

Any day over this shlock:


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## MartialHorror (Aug 6, 2018)

Xhominid said:


> No, the prequels was criticized(quite stupidly in my opinion) in the fact that the sword fights felt more like dances(which... is actually try in most cases. The only times most sword fights aren't dances are ironically battles against Knights... and instead, they are full on brawls.
> The Prequels deal with lots of Flynning and Flourishes but considering the world of the Jedi, it would make sense that these fighting styles are well beyond the typical fighting style that we know of and should be comparable to dances.
> 
> Hell, I even understand that the OT and PT does their fights differently because they are either people who got old or are inexperienced.
> The ST in most cases just feels off as it tries to be both but fails miserably in every case, especially with the Throne Room fight.



The prequel fights are stylized that way because Hong Kong cinema was experiencing a boom and Lucas was clearly inspired by wuxia choreography. They just aren't that good. Watch the fights and see how many times you can tell that the actors are obviously aiming above the actors head, or they'll start blocking before the attacker even strikes. 

The actually thought the best choreography came from "The Force Awakens", as it's more advanced than the OT, but isn't quite so silly looking at the PT. "The Last Jedi" does seem to try to be more stylized, but...yeah...it's pretty bad itself in that regard. The throne room fight just looks like a rehearsal for the actual fight.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 6, 2018)

A 2k17 Star Wars film backed by a $250+ million budget shouldn't have shit choreography like that. 

Throne Room fight looks like amateur dramatics.


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## Fang (Aug 6, 2018)

Pocalypse said:


> A 2k17 Star Wars film backed by a $250+ million budget shouldn't have shit choreography like that.
> 
> Throne Room fight looks like amateur dramatics.



The budget for TLJ is actually a lot more than that.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 6, 2018)

Fang said:


> The budget for TLJ is actually a lot more than that.



Oh how much is it?


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## Fang (Aug 6, 2018)

Pocalypse said:


> Oh how much is it?



Around 600 million USD give or take, more or less. TFA had a budget of almost $800 million USD (actually I think accordingly it was specifically $776 million).


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 6, 2018)

Fang said:


> Around 600 million USD give or take, more or less. TFA had a budget of almost $800 million USD (actually I think accordingly it was specifically $776 million).


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## Suigetsu (Aug 6, 2018)

Fang said:


> Around 600 million USD give or take, more or less. TFA had a budget of almost $800 million USD (actually I think accordingly it was specifically $776 million).


where did you get that sauce?


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## Aeternus (Aug 7, 2018)

Fang said:


> Around 600 million USD give or take, more or less. TFA had a budget of almost $800 million USD (actually I think accordingly it was specifically $776 million).


You mean along with promotion, right?


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## MartialHorror (Aug 7, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> where did you get that sauce?



Probably Walmart. They sell all kinds of sauce.


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## Fang (Aug 7, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> where did you get that sauce?



Disney's publicly available financial reports from 2016 and 2017.


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## Suigetsu (Aug 7, 2018)

Fang said:


> Disney's publicly available financial reports from 2016 and 2017.


could that had been the budget including marketing? or was it the pure movie budget? 

what a freaking trainwreck.


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## Fang (Aug 7, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> could that had been the budget including marketing? or was it the pure movie budget?
> 
> what a freaking trainwreck.



It was the entire operating cost for the film studio branch of the Star Wars brand from Disney.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 7, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> could that had been the budget including marketing? or was it the pure movie budget?
> 
> what a freaking trainwreck.


Do theme parks fall under that umbrella?


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## Suigetsu (Aug 7, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Do theme parks fall under that umbrella?


The parks arent done with the budget of the movie if that is what you mean.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 7, 2018)

I'm pretty sure theme parks cost millions.


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## Fang (Aug 8, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> where did you get that sauce?





Disney financial report from 2016.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 13, 2018)




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## Tony Lou (Aug 13, 2018)

I predict they will ruin Lando as they did Luke.


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## Gaiash (Aug 13, 2018)

Ruin? Luke was great in The Last Jedi.


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 13, 2018)

this guy...full of jokes


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 13, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Ruin? Luke was great in The Last Jedi.


History will not back this statement up.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 13, 2018)

You guys need to seriously move on with your lives, lol.


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## Skaddix (Aug 13, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> History will not back this statement up.



On this we agree....I argue no former hero has ever gotten shit on worst then Luke.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 13, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> On this we agree....I argue no former hero has ever gotten shit on worst then Luke.



What about the ones who turn bad? Or die unceremoniously? 

I get why the "Mission Impossible" fandom would freak out over the hero from the TV series turning into the villain from the first movie. 

But- meh, nevermind. I've had this argument too many times before, lol.


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## Skaddix (Aug 13, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> What about the ones who turn bad? Or die unceremoniously?
> 
> I get why the "Mission Impossible" fandom would freak out over the hero from the TV series turning into the villain from the first movie.
> 
> But- meh, nevermind. I've had this argument too many times before, lol.



It depends on how they fall for the turn Bad. Do they fall based on their existing character traits or do they fall randomly? 

I argue Luke died pretty unceremoniously...over-exhausting from projection really?


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## MartialHorror (Aug 13, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> It depends on how they fall for the turn Bad. Do they fall based on their existing character traits or do they fall randomly?
> 
> I argue Luke died pretty unceremoniously...over-exhausting from projection really?



In contrast to Obi Wan, who simply let Vader kill him? Or did Vader even kill him? During the Jedi Massacre from the prequels, the Jedi leave corpses. Vader seems confused when Obi Wan vanishes...I'm no Star Wars geek, but I just assume he 'became one with the force', which is what happens to Luke. For me, I loved his death scene because of how emotional it was. Having him stare at another sunset was a perfect way to end his character...even if it would've been better for it to occur in Episode 9.

Let's face it, there would have been no way to kill off Luke without the fanbase foaming at the mouth.

I've argued time and time again how Luke's actions in TLJ do make sense based on how characterization from ROTJ, but those posts tend to either be ignored or they lead into a standstill where we simply disagree. The only reason Luke didn't kill Vader was because of Palpatine's taunting, which to me shows that Luke struggles with controlling his impulses. So I like that he still struggles with it as an adult to the point where it completely ruins his life. When he faces Kylo Ren, he wasn't angry, nor did he give into those impulses. He's calm, collected and knows what he must do. To me, that's character development.

If you don't see it that way, you don't see it that way. It all comes down to how we perceive Luke from the OT. Personally, if Luke just ended up being Obi Wan 2.0, that would've been boring. As great as Mark Hamill is, he's no Sir Alec Guiness. I think Luke's portrayal in TLJ really allowed him to show range most of us didn't think he had and it was different seeing a more aggressive, bitter teacher. 

As for for people bad, etc. Every case is different, but usually it makes little sense. I didn't watch the original Mission Impossible T.V Series, so can only judge based on what people have told me/what I've read and the cast of the T.V show refused to have anything to do with the movie because of how it treated the original characters.

Or what about John Connor from "Terminator: Genysis"? I have seen all those movies and felt his heel turn was disrespectful, stupid, confusing and had absolutely no dramatic pay-off whatsoever. 

Or what about Kirsty from the "Hellraiser" series? 

Or JCVD's character from the "Universal Soldier" series? Actually, I've always kind of liked this because I see it more as the tragic conclusion to his character arc, but does it make a lot of sense? Meh. No one minded because the series had become formulaic at that point and needed to try something new.

So even if Luke was treated poorly, he's not even close to being the worst. Hell, what about Shia Lebouf's character from the Transformers movies, whose character arc in one movie has him wanting a normal life, but then in the next movie has him not wanting to have a normal life. That's true inconsistent and shitty writing.  

God damn it Skaddix, I SAID I WASN'T GOING TO DO THIS AGAIN!


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## Gaiash (Aug 13, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> I argue Luke died pretty unceremoniously...over-exhausting from projection really?


That was a great death for him and that final shot of him as he disappears looking out at the horizon is great. If he'd died in battle it would just make things worse, instead he died giving people hope and inspiration.


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## Mider T (Aug 13, 2018)

I think he just became one with the force.  Like Obi-Wan did.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> You guys need to seriously move on with your lives, lol.


You devote an entire blog to movies.

What makes you so different?

What Disney did is the most epic missed layup in the history of movies. Of course people will talk about it forever like they talk about the Godfather or Kubrick movies.

Irt also ties into recent trends in the arts/entertainment industry.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> You devote an entire blog to movies.
> 
> What makes you so different?
> 
> ...



What makes me different?

Um, my website isn't about a single movie that I hated? Instead, it's about many movies that I hated! I've had plenty of films or franchises that I've loved tarnished by shitty sequels...including "Star Wars"...but I don't linger on them for a year. I watch them, bite their heads off...and then move on...

At the absolute least, I don't understand why ya'll want to have the same argument over and over again. Gaiash isn't exempt from this either, but I get obsessing over a movie that you love more than one you despise.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> What makes me different?
> 
> Um, my website isn't about a single movie that I hated? Instead, it's about many movies that I hated! I've had plenty of films or franchises that I've loved tarnished by shitty sequels...including "Star Wars"...but I don't linger on them for a year. I watch them, bite their heads off...and then move on...
> 
> At the absolute least, I don't understand why ya'll want to have the same argument over and over again. Gaiash isn't exempt from this either, but I get obsessing over a movie that you love more than one you despise.


i would argue less about it in a different social climate, also Lucas fuckups were more understandable.

TLJ's fuckup is relevant for the next movies, Disney stock and the culture in general.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> i would argue less about it in a different social climate, also Lucas fuckups were more understandable.
> 
> TLJ's fuckup is relevant for the next movies, Disney stock and the culture in general.



Meh, we'll see when Episode 9 comes out. But either way, can't ya'll find something new about TLJ to argue about? At least the choreography debate was different.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Meh, we'll see when Episode 9 comes out. But either way, can't ya'll find something new about TLJ to argue about? At least the choreography debate was different.


Star Wars is unique in the current zillion choices pop culture landscape.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Star Wars is unique in the current zillion choices pop culture landscape.



Not really. It's influences can be seen in most science fiction films. But that's not what I was talking about anyway. I was referring to debates. How many times can the same people argue about Luke's development before you might as well just start cutting and pasting your original posts?


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 14, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> That was a great death for him and that final shot of him as he disappears looking out at the horizon is great. If he'd died in battle it would just make things worse, instead he died giving people hope and inspiration.


Nah. That death was beneath him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Not really. It's influences can be seen in most science fiction films. But that's not what I was talking about anyway. I was referring to debates. How many times can the same people argue about Luke's development before you might as well just start cutting and pasting your original posts?


How many timkes do we have to argue about capitalism vs socialism?


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> How many timkes do we have to argue about capitalism vs socialism?



Oi, always making things political.

The difference though is that politics is a filter for our way of life, so discussing capitalism, socialism, the drawbacks and benefits of both, as well as other social issues is supposed to be a neverending argument because the political landscape is always changing. Star Wars is...a film series...Whether it's good or bad does not really effect your quality of life...


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Oi, always making things political.
> 
> The difference though is that politics is a filter for our way of life, so discussing capitalism, socialism, the drawbacks and benefits of both, as well as other social issues is supposed to be a neverending argument because the political landscape is always changing. Star Wars is...a film series...Whether it's good or bad does not really effect your quality of life...


Who is the greatest bball player of all time?

25% of realgm topics.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Who is the greatest bball player of all time?
> 
> 25% of realgm topics.



That's a subject that can spawn a variety of arguments, as it goes beyond 'good' or 'bad'.  When you talk about Luke Skywalker's portrayal, there are a limited amount of points either way...as it's either you like it or you don't. When it comes to the best bball player of all time, there are a thousand different points to be made about hundreds of different people. 

This is common sense...isn't it?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> That's a subject that can spawn a variety of arguments, as it goes beyond 'good' or 'bad'.  When you talk about Luke Skywalker's portrayal, there are a limited amount of points either way...as it's either you like it or you don't. When it comes to the best bball player of all time, there are a thousand different points to be made about hundreds of different people.
> 
> This is common sense...isn't it?


There is a 1000 ways Disney fucked this up the fans can find a 1000 ways to justify the TLJ being great, from politics, subversion etc...


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## Gaiash (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Gaiash isn't exempt from this either, but I get obsessing over a movie that you love more than one you despise.


I barely put much attention into these threads to be honest. I didn't even both taking part in the discussion about fight choreography because the complaints were so nitpicky it wasn't even worth reacting to. Mostly I just open this thread up while checking on the more important discussion of Smash Bros.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> There is a 1000 ways Disney fucked this up the fans can find a 1000 ways to justify the TLJ being great, from politics, subversion etc...



Then why...and please pay attention closely here...ARE YOU ALWAYS ARGUING THE EXACT SAME THINGS!? If there were '1000' ways Disney fucked this up, then every once in awhile you would take a break from copying and pasting the exact same points of the exact same arguments and find something else within "TLJ" to argue about.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 14, 2018)

I agree with MH. You guys have been talking about the same topics all year!


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 14, 2018)

But really..that says more about the movie because there really isn't much to talk about at all.

Force Awakens provided tons of discussion.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Then why...and please pay attention closely here...ARE YOU ALWAYS ARGUING THE EXACT SAME THINGS!? If there were '1000' ways Disney fucked this up, then every once in awhile you would take a break from copying and pasting the exact same points of the exact same arguments and find something else within "TLJ" to argue about.


I don't feel like my arguments  are less diverse than the arguments of others.


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 14, 2018)

~Gesy~ said:


> But really..that says more about the movie because there really isn't much to talk about at all.
> 
> Force Awakens provided tons of discussion.


when RJ makes a fucking hack like JarJar Abrams look good less bad...


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## Gaiash (Aug 14, 2018)

~Gesy~ said:


> But really..that says more about the movie because there really isn't much to talk about at all.
> 
> Force Awakens provided tons of discussion.


There are things to discuss, but why would I have an actually thoughtful discussion in this thread? I've already had them with people I know in person who also enjoyed the movie. Some of them even have criticisms of it that are actually reasonable that they don't make a huge fuss about.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> I don't feel like my arguments  are less diverse than the arguments of others.



I'm talking everyone and I'm not really any better. If we argue about TLJ, the topics will either be

1) Luke's portrayal
2) Rose being a terrible character and her segment with Finn. 
3) Kylo Ren being a terrible villain/Snoke never getting developed. 
4) The box office under-performance. 
5) Kennedy's politics. 
6) Holdo's plan. 

Rinse, wash, repeat. 

The choreography argument was slightly interesting because it hasn't been debated all that often...and that's only because no one really noticed the mistakes until the movie came out for the small screen. But otherwise, it's always a variation of the above and we all know each-others opinions on the matter.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> I'm talking everyone and I'm not really any better. If we argue about TLJ, the topics will either be
> 
> 1) Luke's portrayal
> 2) Rose being a terrible character and her segment with Finn.
> ...


Forgot Disney's politics.

Home media sales.


Gaiash said:


> There are things to discuss, but why would I have an actually thoughtful discussion in this thread? I've already had them with people I know in person who also enjoyed the movie. Some of them even have criticisms of it that are actually reasonable that they don't make a huge fuss about.



Got a lot of right wing and unwoke iRL friends.


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 14, 2018)

you forgot to add the sheer mind numbing stupidity of the opening scene...

the movie was hot garbage from the get go.

and I'm actually a guy who can forgive character assassinations like Luke's portrayal; but everything else was _just. so. bad._

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Forgot Disney's politics.
> 
> Home media sales.



Disney politics? Isn't that the same as Kennedy politics? Home media sales is just an extension of box office performance. Tell me how one makes an argument about those that would actually be any different?

It would still go like this

Fang (probably): The Last Jedi did not make enough money!
Gaiash (probably): The Last Jedi made enough money! 

And then they would go into specifics...which would be the same in both arguments, just with 'rentals/DVD buys' swapping out 'box office'.


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## Gaiash (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Gaiash (probably): The Last Jedi made enough money!
> 
> And then they would go into specifics...which would be the same in both arguments, just with 'rentals/DVD buys' swapping out 'box office'.


You're giving my arguing ability too much credit here.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Disney politics? Isn't that the same as Kennedy politics? Home media sales is just an extension of box office performance. Tell me how one makes an argument about those that would actually be any different?
> 
> It would still go like this
> 
> ...


Disney politics would mean tying it into ESPN, a potentially woke turn for the MCU etc..


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Disney politics would mean tying it into ESPN, a potentially woke turn for the MCU etc..



And are there any differences in politics I should be aware of? Something that would be worth discussing?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> And are there any differences in politics I should be aware of? Something that would be worth discussing?


If KK leaves the specualtion abpout it might go on.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> If KK leaves the specualtion abpout it might go on.



Same argument, just without her name being mentioned.

Oi, you're reaching. I'm done indulging.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 14, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> WTF is taht? I don't remember? The gravity bombs in space?


the _yo momma_ joke followed by Poe soloing the strongest ship in the 1O fleet...

it was _that_ early into the film I knew I was watching something made _for_ and_ by_ mouth-breathers.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 14, 2018)

Dropping bombs in space is hilarious.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 14, 2018)

The wrong sister died. My boy Finn could've had a beautiful Asian waifu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

At what point does science end and fiction begin for you guys? 

Yeah, dropping bombs in space is unrealistic. So are those laser noises that all Star Wars movies use...and I'm not being snarky about this either, as I've heard fans of the movie have the same complaint. I can't think of anything- even in the prequels- that really bothered me with its scientific accuracy, as this franchise has never tried to be realistic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 14, 2018)

I don't remember Star Wars ever displaying anti-gravity..still..It's pretty funny.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't remember Star Wars ever displaying anti-gravity..still..It's pretty funny.



I don't remember anyone using the force to have super speed before "The Phantom Menace"...or after "The Phantom Menace" either...but you have to be able to accept that the franchise is going to have do try new things. Sometimes they're cool, other times they're stupid but who seriously cares about that kind of nitpicking? This is a franchise with laser swords and you're going to complain about anti-gravity bombs...which sounds a little more feasible than laser swords? 

I mean, that's like whining about Luke using new force powers- oh wait, people do that too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gaiash (Aug 14, 2018)

People make these nitpicky complaints only because it gives them more things to say negatively about a movie they hated. It's part of why CinemaSins is so successful.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 14, 2018)

~Gesy~ said:


> The wrong sister died. My boy Finn could've had a beautiful Asian waifu.


He lacks charisma. I say he should stay a virgin. If Disney wants toi be diverse there so much better black leading man material...


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 14, 2018)

when a movie is bad, the nitpicks stand out all the more.

when a movie is excellent, you forgive those very same nitpicks.

and when a movie is so bad that it's good, those nitpicks become endearing.


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 14, 2018)

stumbled upon this during my routine of _not actually caring_ about Star Wars; it's a pretty reasonable critique on the current state of the thing


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> I don't remember anyone using the force to have super speed before "The Phantom Menace"...or after "The Phantom Menace" either...but you have to be able to accept that the franchise is going to have do try new things. Sometimes they're cool, other times they're stupid but who seriously cares about that kind of nitpicking? This is a franchise with laser swords and you're going to complain about anti-gravity bombs...which sounds a little more feasible than laser swords?
> 
> I mean, that's like whining about Luke using new force powers- oh wait, people do that too.


New force abilities is fine since the force while talked about heavily is barely explored or fleshed out (especially in the OT).

I'm not saying this ruined my experience or anything..I mean the last move showed 3 planets neighboring each other like moons...all I'm saying is that it was distracting .


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> You so care about Star Wars.


I love the OT
I enjoy the PT (for what it's become) 
and I'm salty as fuck over the ST for robbing me of my interest in SW


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## MartialHorror (Aug 14, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> I love the OT
> I enjoy the PT (for what it's become)
> and I'm salty as fuck over the ST for robbing me of my interest in SW



But you're still interested if you spend time looking up videos about them. You might hate them, but you care enough about it that you must indulge said hatred. 

Being disinterested is...well, me and the new "Slender Man" movie. I don't watch it. I don't talk about it. I don't think about it. I spend my time on things that I am interested in, whether I love or hate them. 

I am interested in the "Puppet Master" franchise, even though I hate them. Every once in awhile, I indulge that hatred by watching a video or reading a review where an unwatchable sequel gets eviscerated. 

That's the thing. Fang, Raging Boner and Kamal are all fascinated with the new Star Wars movies, moreso than anyone else here- except maybe myself and Gaiash, because why else would we still be talking about it? Granted, you guys might be fascinated in the same way that one might be fascinated by a trainwreck, but if you were really just disinterested, you would've stopped posting here a long time ago.


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 14, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> But you're still interested if you spend time looking up videos about them. You might hate them, but you care enough about it that you must indulge said hatred.


Didn't look up the video, it appeared on youtube...plus it's not even a hate video. It's nothing but calm sense 



> Being disinterested is...well, me and the new "Slender Man" movie. I don't watch it. I don't talk about it. I don't think about it. I spend my time on things that I am interested in, whether I love or hate them.
> 
> I am interested in the "Puppet Master" franchise, even though I hate them. Every once in awhile, I indulge that hatred by watching a video or reading a review where an unwatchable sequel gets eviscerated.


I'm salty that RJ pissed on my camp fire with his shit story because he wanted to be "subversive" when he should have been going for "competent".
Do I care what comes next? no, I can't even muster up a fan theory in my head because it's all so _'meh'_

Now, if that qualifies as interest... 



> That's the thing. Fang, Raging Boner and Kamal are all fascinated with the new Star Wars movies, moreso than anyone else here- except maybe myself and Gaiash, because why else would we still be talking about it? Granted, you guys might be fascinated in the same way that one might be fascinated by a trainwreck, but if you were really just disinterested, you would've stopped posting here a long time ago.


I can't speak for anyone else, but fascination is not something TLJ made me feel. Confusion, revulsion, and apathy towards the future of the franchise? that for sure i've felt.

As for posting here...takes me a minute and some change, usually while I work. Not much of an investment tbh. I have porn, reddit and youtube on other tabs too...but i wouldn't claim fascination for those either


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## MartialHorror (Aug 15, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> Didn't look up the video, it appeared on youtube...plus it's not even a hate video. It's nothing but calm sense
> 
> I'm salty that RJ pissed on my camp fire with his shit story because he wanted to be "subversive" when he should have been going for "competent".
> Do I care what comes next? no, I can't even muster up a fan theory in my head because it's all so _'meh'_
> ...



You watched the video. You still talk about it. That's some form of interest. FACE IT BONER, THE LAST JEDI LIVES WITHIN YOU NOW! JUST LET IT IN! Soon, you shall wake up and see RJ laying next to you, saying "We're going to win this flame war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love!" and then lean in for a kiss. You will promptly wake up in a cold sweat, realizing it was all just a dream...OR WAS IT!?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 15, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> But you're still interested if you spend time looking up videos about them. You might hate them, but you care enough about it that you must indulge said hatred.
> 
> Being disinterested is...well, me and the new "Slender Man" movie. I don't watch it. I don't talk about it. I don't think about it. I spend my time on things that I am interested in, whether I love or hate them.
> 
> ...


I rereading the EU i missed right now and will reread some old EU. I care about Star Wars.



MartialHorror said:


> You watched the video. You still talk about it. That's some form of interest. FACE IT BONER, THE LAST JEDI LIVES WITHIN YOU NOW! JUST LET IT IN! Soon, you shall wake up and see RJ laying next to you, saying "We're going to win this flame war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love!" and then lean in for a kiss. You will promptly wake up in a cold sweat, realizing it was all just a dream...OR WAS IT!?


TLJ is a fat ugly bitch with a giant strapon and a Kathleen K facemask.


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## Fang (Aug 15, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> I barely put much attention into these threads to be honest. I didn't even both taking part in the discussion about fight choreography because the complaints were so nitpicky it wasn't even worth reacting to. Mostly I just open this thread up while checking on the more important discussion of Smash Bros.



lmao

>its somehow "nitpicking" criticizing stupid shit TLJ is riffed 
>not expecting people to do this when its literally there and ripe for the picking

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kuromaku (Aug 15, 2018)

Looking back on it, that shot with the disappearing knife is a bewildering creative decision. It's a minor thing, and yet it's just so odd. We've had bloopers in other movie fight scenes before, but oftentimes they were really minor or got past the editors. Here, they clearly noticed it in editing, and then used CGI to remove the knife. Why? Was the shot really that important to keep in? Couldn't they just remove that one knife from the start if it was such an important shot? Hell, why not just quickly re-shoot on a sound stage if you have the time and the shot is so important? Why remove the knife in the middle of the scene?


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## Atlas (Aug 15, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> Looking back on it, that shot with the disappearing knife is a bewildering creative decision. It's a minor thing, and yet it's just so odd. We've had bloopers in other movie fight scenes before, but oftentimes they were really minor or got past the editors. Here, they clearly noticed it in editing, and then used CGI to remove the knife. Why? Was the shot really that important to keep in? Couldn't they just remove that one knife from the start if it was such an important shot? Hell, why not just quickly re-shoot on a sound stage if you have the time and the shot is so important? Why remove the knife in the middle of the scene?



To subvert expectations.


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## Gaiash (Aug 15, 2018)

Fang said:


> lmao
> 
> >its somehow "nitpicking" criticizing stupid shit TLJ is riffed
> >not expecting people to do this when its literally there and ripe for the picking


The complaints being made about fight choreography is nitpicking. And not just the ones about The Last Jedi, the ones being made about the prequels were just as nitpicky. I mean for crying out loud you're complaining about a knife in one shot, that's how petty you're being.


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## Fang (Aug 15, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> The complaints being made about fight choreography is nitpicking.



Its *the* main duel of Episode VIII, its not nitpicking regardless of what kind of semantics game you want to play to try and hand wave away how awful the choreography was for it. We aren't talking about some random fight in the movie here, so its completely fair game.



> And not just the ones about The Last Jedi, the ones being made about the prequels were just as nitpicky. I mean for crying out loud you're complaining about a knife in one shot, that's how petty you're being.



A magical knife in an edited scene that isn't digitally altered so it sticks out like a sore thumb is pretty terrible, especially when they had not one but two fucking years to work on the movie production. I'm not sure why you are giving me *more* ammunition here instead of lessening it but nothing about that is being petty.


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## Gaiash (Aug 15, 2018)

I'm sorry you don't have the ability to just sit back and enjoy a cool fight.


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## Fang (Aug 15, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> I'm sorry you don't have the ability to just sit back and enjoy a cool fight.



I'm sorry you can't take criticism of any kind that's justified but that's not our problem.


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 16, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> You watched the video. You still talk about it. That's some form of interest. FACE IT BONER, THE LAST JEDI LIVES WITHIN YOU NOW! JUST LET IT IN! Soon, you shall wake up and see RJ laying next to you, saying "We're going to win this flame war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love!" and then lean in for a kiss. You will promptly wake up in a cold sweat, realizing it was all just a dream...OR WAS IT!?


I figured it out: It's Filler; terrible, terrible filler. _That's_ what Rian "_cuck face_" Johnson made of TLJ...

I knew that aside from the shite story telling and nonsensical plot developments_if you wrap it all together it's a story that says nothing, reveals nothing, creates nothing and does nothing of any significance regarding the trilogy or for the franchise as a whole. (pissing all over Luke's grave notwithstanding)

TLJ is fucking filler


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 16, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> The complaints being made about fight choreography is nitpicking. And not just the ones about The Last Jedi, the ones being made about the prequels were just as nitpicky. I mean for crying out loud you're complaining about a knife in one shot, that's how petty you're being.


Nitpicky my ass. Most prequels characters come across like they are made off plastic.

It's not nitpicky to say the prequels camerawork was uninspired it could had been done by any not horrible fillmaker.

It's not not nitpicky to say h Christensen is  not charimsatic enough to play a war general in space.

It's not nitpicky to say being prequels they lacked tension.


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## Gaiash (Aug 16, 2018)

Fang said:


> I'm sorry you can't take criticism of any kind that's justified but that's not our problem.


Oh I can take criticism, I just think the criticisms made in this thread are really petty. I've said before I've talked with people with more reasonable criticisms and while I've disagreed with them I've not been bothered by their points. For example I think the criticism that there was no plan for the full trilogy being used is understandable.



The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Nitpicky my ass. Most prequels characters come across like they are made off plastic.
> 
> It's not nitpicky to say the prequels camerawork was uninspired it could had been done by any not horrible fillmaker.
> 
> ...


I said the criticism of fight choreography was nitpicking, not that all criticism of the prequels was.


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## Fang (Aug 16, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> Oh I can take criticism, I just think the criticisms made in this thread are really petty.



They aren't petty. You can repeat this as much as you want but that won't change this reality at all.



> I said the criticism of fight choreography was nitpicking, not that all criticism of the prequels was.



Its not. And its certainly just as relevant to dissect how bad the fighting was in TLJ for the main duel with Snoke's Guards or the stupid slow motion cap shit in Luke and Kylo's duel at the end of the movie, or how its been pointed out many times that even the Disney centric new aliens are literally the same designs, or the lack of costume variety, complete inability for even rudimentary world building, etc...

You are going to have to wear those big boy pants and deal with it.


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## Gaiash (Aug 16, 2018)

Fang said:


> They aren't petty. You can repeat this as much as you want but that won't change this reality at all.


The reality that I'm arguing without people I can't actually have a conversation with?



Fang said:


> Its not. And its certainly just as relevant to dissect how bad the fighting was in TLJ


I swear you guys are misreading these posts on purpose. That post was about how complaints about the fight choreography in the prequels is also nitpicking.

You're boring me now Fang.


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 16, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> I figured it out: It's Filler; terrible, terrible filler. _That's_ what Rian "_cuck face_" Johnson made of TLJ...



Rian johnson is joss whedon's final form?


*Spoiler*: __


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## Fang (Aug 16, 2018)

Gaiash said:


> The reality that I'm arguing without people I can't actually have a conversation with?



The reality of you complaining about these "nitpicks".



> I swear you guys are misreading these posts on purpose. That post was about how complaints about the fight choreography in the prequels is also nitpicking.



You talk about misreading when no one contested against nitpicking the Prequel duels when no one ever attempted to justify a double standard here? Talk about your reading comprehension, dude.



> You're boring me now Fang.



You're boring me now, Fang.*

Reactions: Like 1


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 16, 2018)

Someone explained the reason for Rey being so good in combat and the force:


> _Rey stole Kylo's training when their minds were connected; that's why she's so good.._.


Apparently this is the actual canon of the ST.
These motherfuckers think I'm an idiot.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Aug 16, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> Someone explained the reason for Rey being so good in combat and the force:
> 
> Apparently this is the actual canon of the ST.
> These motherfuckers think I'm an idiot.



This wouldn't bother me if they explain it in film...and explain why Snoke would want to give her an upgrade...

I personally like the idea that the force must balance itself out, so if the jedi have the advantage in numbers, the Sith would be stronger individually and vice versa. There are holes in that logic too, but there will always be holes in Star Wars lore.


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## Kuromaku (Aug 16, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> This wouldn't bother me if they explain it in film...and explain why Snoke would want to give her an upgrade...
> 
> I personally like the idea that the force must balance itself out, so if the jedi have the advantage in numbers, the Sith would be stronger individually and vice versa. There are holes in that logic too, but there will always be holes in Star Wars lore.



That was the problem with the old canon, and it's quickly becoming a problem with the new one: details that should be explained within their proper context require outside sources (which you have to pay extra for) for the audience to understand what's going on. It kind of reminds me how the interconnected nature of American comics at the Big 2 has reached a point where new readers can easily get locked out. And to think that they are applying it to the MCU.

Luke and the Jedi Temple's decor seemed to imply that the Force in itself has a sort of balance that's not 50-50 so much as a back and forth ebb and flow. The Force doesn't need practitioners on any side to work as it always has, but the fewer the number of users of either side, the more of that aspect of the Force that individuals can utilize for their own purposes. The original Jedi tried to maintain the balance, so everything was fine, but the Sith outright tried to expand upon the existing darkness, which, combined with the Jedi losing sight of themselves as they emphasized the institution at the cost of the practice, strengthened the darkness beyond its usual capacity.

Meanwhile, based on what Lucas said in the past, this had a cancerous effect on the Force, as like cancer does by causing cells that shouldn't be dividing to divide as they do beyond what is healthy, the Dark Side grew cancerous to the Force as a whole, which had to send in Anakin to destroy this ailment before Palpatine exploited the new nature of the Force to control it, and by extension, reality itself.

Basically, it's not the Light or the Dark that chooses and empowers individuals, but the actual Force in its entirety making sure that no one messes up its balance, kind of like a cosmic immune system.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 17, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> That was the problem with the old canon, and it's quickly becoming a problem with the new one: details that should be explained within their proper context require outside sources (which you have to pay extra for) for the audience to understand what's going on. It kind of reminds me how the interconnected nature of American comics at the Big 2 has reached a point where new readers can easily get locked out. And to think that they are applying it to the MCU.
> 
> Luke and the Jedi Temple's decor seemed to imply that the Force in itself has a sort of balance that's not 50-50 so much as a back and forth ebb and flow. The Force doesn't need practitioners on any side to work as it always has, but the fewer the number of users of either side, the more of that aspect of the Force that individuals can utilize for their own purposes. The original Jedi tried to maintain the balance, so everything was fine, but the Sith outright tried to expand upon the existing darkness, which, combined with the Jedi losing sight of themselves as they emphasized the institution at the cost of the practice, strengthened the darkness beyond its usual capacity.
> 
> ...



That's...kind of confusing...Maybe it should just be left ambiguous in the movie.

I really don't mind Rey being a bit OP, as Luke was the same way and I just think that this is part of Star Wars. It's supposed to be a wish fulfillment fantasy and Rey is supposed to be the audience avatar...just as Luke was. I think the difference is that

- As good as Luke was from the beginning, he dealt with more formidable enemies, so the force making him learn everything almost immediately didn't stand out as much.

- As gifted as Luke was, the OT often made a point at cutting him off at the knees, usually by having someone emasculate him or downplay his accomplishments in some way (Han telling him not to get cocky, Leia taking a shot at his height, Yoda...Yodaing him). While Luke does this to Rey in TLJ, he's supposed to be in the wrong, so it doesn't come off in the same way. Just as Luke is constantly being casually torn down by his peers, Rey is always being built up. It seems like all of Luke's awkward moments were given to Finn instead. I do sort of wonder if the filmmakers are afraid to do anything with her in that way because of her gender. You can't have her get knocked around by a male character, nor can she be talked down too without evoking some form of misogyny, whether it's intended or not.

What's the female equivalent of emasculating? Slut shaming, maybe? That won't fly in Star Wars.


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 17, 2018)

^ bruh, Luke wasn't shit until RotJ; not until after he payed his dues, fucked up repeatedly, did he succeed. Even then he thought his trip to the DS was tantamount to a suicide mission.

Fucking messiah Rey just needs to jump into problems and they fix themselves 

How did she even get off the Supremacy? she was 10ft from Kylo when the thing was cut in half. Is she made out of granite? because Swolo was out cold for a good while.


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## Fang (Aug 17, 2018)

>the was no Force Speed in Star Wars before the Prequels
So what the fuck was Luke going super speed mode and jumping out of the freezing chamber then?


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## MartialHorror (Aug 17, 2018)

RAGING BONER said:


> ^ bruh, Luke wasn't shit until RotJ; not until after he payed his dues, fucked up repeatedly, did he succeed. Even then he thought his trip to the DS was tantamount to a suicide mission.
> 
> Fucking messiah Rey just needs to jump into problems and they fix themselves
> 
> How did she even get off the Supremacy? she was 10ft from Kylo when the thing was cut in half. Is she made out of granite? because Swolo was out cold for a good while.



He blew up the Death Star with little combat experience...I'm fine with it as ultimately, all he had to do was 'believe in the force'. Apparently faith alone kills death machines, not skill...so once again, why is Rey's accomplishments that much worse?   

lol, the 'fucking messiah Rey' comment made me laugh because I remember hearing an allegation that it was originally going to be revealed that Rey was Anakin reincarnated, complete with this exchange.

*Rey either accuses Luke of being her Father, or asks if he is".
Luke: No, you are my Father.

There were enough similarities between the alleged treatment and "TLJ" to make me wonder if that was the plan that Rian Johnson threw out, but borrowed some elements from it (Rey, Finn and Poe also split up in that version, with Finn being accompanied by a new potential love interest). I don't know if it's true, but that sounds so much worse than...anything...the prequels, the Holiday special, Kickboxer 5...anything...

But hey, maybe they will return to it for Episode 9, where Rey will literally be a reincarnation of the failed space Jesus. 



Fang said:


> >the was no Force Speed in Star Wars before the Prequels
> So what the fuck was Luke going super speed mode and jumping out of the freezing chamber then?



What exactly are you referring to now?


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## Kuromaku (Aug 17, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> That's...kind of confusing...Maybe it should just be left ambiguous in the movie.


Eh, it's a bit confusing at first, but it ultimately makes sense if you're trying to combine Lucas' Eastern and Western influences into something cohesive. Eastern philosophies like Yin and Yang eschew human morality in favor of natural orders, and trying to make good and evil into universal constants raises disturbing implications given that it implies the necessity of evil to exist, which in turn goes against Western moral systems where good is the order of the day and evil something to be eliminated. Differentiating between the natural Light and Dark and good and evil thus allows for both philosophies to make sense in the form of something coherent. Natural death and destruction is just that, natural, while using that destructive power for your own ends is bad.



> What's the female equivalent of emasculating? Slut shaming, maybe? That won't fly in Star Wars.


The problem with Rey is the problem with writing female protagonists (the Galbrush paradox) within the modern political atmosphere. Most male writers think "strong female characters" think "strong" in a physical sense, but forget to write characters who are "strong" in the sense of being well written characters. Not only that, but they're often afraid to really beat down these characters either out of personal incompetence or fear of criticism, which means that you get 'flawless' female characters who aren't pulled through the wringer, which in turn leads to badly written female characters, which in turn feeds into the belief that female characters can't be handled well.

It also doesn't help that female characters have been so underrepresented overall that when a female lead comes out, the masses are desperate for anything, which means that even if Rey is poorly handled, she's all they have to work with. If there were a bunch of strong female characters, then the poorly written examples would get all the flak they deserve.

With Rey, she's actually a worse written Luke aside from how much opposition she faces. In Star Wars, Luke is the wormy farm boy who gets kicked around until he finally begins to find himself at the end. We get set up with his use of the Force and growing faith in it when he initially fails to block the blaster bolt only to finally succeed when he heeds Obi-Wan's advice. Thus, his blowing up the Death Star with Han's help is the payoff for that earlier scene as he stops relying on his senses and facts and more on faith and his feelings.

Rey suddenly pilots a ship well (although this first one works because it's heavily hinted that the Force was putting on the training wheels), mind whammies Kylo right back, messes with a guard's mind, and then out duels (an admittedly exhausted and injured) Kylo. The set-up is poor because whereas Luke had to learn to have faith in the Force instead of relying on his eyes (or that of a computer guidance system), Rey winds up mastering a bunch of things unrelated to one another. Furthermore, she's never made helpless given that even when she's captured, she rescues herself and does a fine job of staying hidden. Had she been on the verge of recapture or death when Han, Fin, and Chewbacca found her, it would have established that she needs other people not just emotionally, but physically in order to overcome her self and her enemies. Unfortunately, she's too self-reliant and competent, and so the rescue feels extraneous.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 17, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> Eh, it's a bit confusing at first, but it ultimately makes sense if you're trying to combine Lucas' Eastern and Western influences into something cohesive. Eastern philosophies like Yin and Yang eschew human morality in favor of natural orders, and trying to make good and evil into universal constants raises disturbing implications given that it implies the necessity of evil to exist, which in turn goes against Western moral systems where good is the order of the day and evil something to be eliminated. Differentiating between the natural Light and Dark and good and evil thus allows for both philosophies to make sense in the form of something coherent. Natural death and destruction is just that, natural, while using that destructive power for your own ends is bad.
> 
> 
> The problem with Rey is the problem with writing female protagonists (the Galbrush paradox) within the modern political atmosphere. Most male writers think "strong female characters" think "strong" in a physical sense, but forget to write characters who are "strong" in the sense of being well written characters. Not only that, but they're often afraid to really beat down these characters either out of personal incompetence or fear of criticism, which means that you get 'flawless' female characters who aren't pulled through the wringer, which in turn leads to badly written female characters, which in turn feeds into the belief that female characters can't be handled well.
> ...



I have to admit that there isn't a whole lot I can contest here. Even though I liked Rey fine, I do agree she's a worse written Luke.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 23, 2018)

Pics.


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## Fang (Aug 23, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> What exactly are you referring to now?



Its quotation, mate. 



MartialHorror said:


> He blew up the Death Star with little combat experience...



You might want to rewatch ANH. It was specifically stated that the T-65 X-Wings were built and designed by Incom, the same company that makes the Skyhoppers which Luke grew up piloting all his life on Tatootine. And he still had to be bailed out two or three times by Biggs, Wedge, and Han during the Battle of Yavin.



> I'm fine with it as ultimately, all he had to do was 'believe in the force'. Apparently faith alone kills death machines, not skill...so once again, why is Rey's accomplishments that much worse?



Because his "faith in the Force" had nothing to do with his piloting skill or experience at all until the 11th hour moment when he was in the Trench and making his run to blow up the Death Star. Rey somehow can comparatively know how to fix the Falcon, swim (despite growing up on a desert planet which is a 1:1 clone of Tatootine and never being around a body of water her entire life up to that point) better than Han Solo and Chewie, and was pulling Force powers out of her ass within hours of learning from it from Maz.

She's not well developed in the least. So can you tell me, do you think ANH would be considered iconic or Luke a dynamic character whose the face of pop culture super heroes in films and TV mediums if he was able to just bust out a Jedi Mind Trick, telepathic powers, and using Telekensis while beating up Vader in their first encounter? You know he wouldn't. Her character kind of takes all the suspension in the scene in kills it.

Look at episode 9, we've already had Kylo/Ben beaten up by Rey regardless of circumstances of his injury, which Rian further shits on by having Snoke go out of his way in episode 8 to mock him over, Snoke is dead, everything with the sub-plot involving the Knights of Ren was tossed out, and First Order is in shambles. Who can be excited for this?



> lol, the 'fucking messiah Rey' comment made me laugh because I remember hearing an allegation that it was originally going to be revealed that Rey was Anakin reincarnated, complete with this exchange.



I don't remember any rumor like this at all but people were claiming that she was going to be related or even Obi-Wan Kenobi's daughter which I thought was pretty stupid.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Aug 23, 2018)

Fang said:


> She's not well developed in the least. So can you tell me, do you think ANH would be considered iconic or Luke a dynamic character whose the face of pop culture super heroes in films and TV mediums if he was able to just bust out a Jedi Mind Trick, telepathic powers, and using Telekensis while beating up Vader in their first encounter? You know he wouldn't. Her character kind of takes all the suspension in the scene in kills it.
> .



Good question. I don't know, but with Rey, they have to escalate it somehow. Otherwise we are just seeing her do the same shit Luke did in a movie that has already been accused of doing the same shit that the OT did. That's simply what movies do, which is why R2D2 can do a lot more in the prequels than he could in the original trilogy. 

I do agree that she's accomplished too much and that Kylo Ren isn't particularly threatening anymore, as she's bested him too many times. I'm curious how Episode 9 will 'fix' this, if it can.


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## The Runner (Aug 23, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> He blew up the Death Star with little combat experience..


He had outside help and actual flight experience


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## Fang (Aug 23, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Good question. I don't know, but with Rey, they have to escalate it somehow. Otherwise we are just seeing her do the same shit Luke did in a movie that has already been accused of doing the same shit that the OT did. That's simply what movies do, which is why R2D2 can do a lot more in the prequels than he could in the original trilogy.



Of course they have to escalate shit for episode 9. The suspension of disbelief doesn't exist for her to do anything more heroic because she beat Kylo, Snoke is dead, so are his elite guards, and seeing Kylo eventually lose again isn't going to impress anyone much. As for Artoo, he still did plenty in the OT, saving Han, Luke, Leia, and Chewie from getting crushed to death in the trash compactor scene on the Death Star, sending and hiding Luke's lightsaber on Jabba's barge on Tatootine in the desert, hacking shit, etc...

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Aug 23, 2018)

Fang said:


> Of course they have to escalate shit for episode 9. The suspension of disbelief doesn't exist for her to do anything more heroic because she beat Kylo, Snoke is dead, so are his elite guards, and seeing Kylo eventually lose again isn't going to impress anyone much. As for Artoo, he still did plenty in the OT, saving Han, Luke, Leia, and Chewie from getting crushed to death in the trash compactor scene on the Death Star, sending and hiding Luke's lightsaber on Jabba's barge on Tatootine in the desert, hacking shit, etc...



On R2, I was referring to him flying and stuff. 

Obviously J.J has his work cut out for him in Episode 9. It would be hard to rebuild Kylo Ren in a single movie and make Rey's defeat of him satisfying. The only options I can think of are-

1) Introduce a new villain, which I REALLY don't like the idea of. I guess the Knights of Ren are still out there and can collectively be a threat? 

2) Resurrect Snoke, or reveal that Snoke faked his death. 

3) Have Kylo Ren decide to become a good guy early on, while Rey descends into villainy. A tough sell though.

4) Have Rey and Kylo Ren's rematch end with her losing and possibly even dying, while Finn is forced to take up the mantle.

5) Continue the saga beyond Episode 9, which would focus on rebuilding Kylo Ren into a legitimate threat. 

It would be kind of amazing or horrible if they reveal that Palpatine was still alive and pulling the strings this entire time, with Snoke possibly being his apprentice.


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## Skaddix (Aug 23, 2018)

@MartialHorror 
1. We just saw Rey and Kylo cut scrubs to ribbons.
2. Most viable option have Luke and Snoke fake deaths
3. Not likely to work without Snoke coming back cause he has no reason to give up power.
4. I wish not going to happen.
5. No they need to wrap this shitshow up and move on fast as they can.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 23, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> @MartialHorror
> 1. We just saw Rey and Kylo cut scrubs to ribbons.
> 2. Most viable option have Luke and Snoke fake deaths
> 3. Not likely to work without Snoke coming back cause he has no reason to give up power.
> ...



1. Those weren't the Knights of Ren, according to Rian Johnson. 

2. I don't like the idea of Luke faking his death. I don't like the idea of Snoke faking his death either, but Luke faking his death be worse.

3. What does that have to do with Rey's potential descent into villainy?

4. Agreed, it won't happen, but it would raise the stakes a lot more. It would also make up for the deceptive marketing campaign that promoted Finn as the main character,


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## Skaddix (Aug 23, 2018)

Oh well come on Rey aint going Dark.


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## Kuromaku (Aug 23, 2018)

Why not go back to the central message of the series regarding morality in the context of a war. Luke almost lost the battle with the Dark Side when he won the physical battle, and it was only by doing the morally correct thing that good prevailed over evil. Rey's won one battle and stalemated Kylo the second time, so why not have Kylo win and make up for lost time by having her lose both hands (seriously, the lack of hands getting cut off kind of bugs me)? Kylo can win the physical battle, but lose the moral one, thus reminding the audience that it's not about power levels, but about doing the right thing even when it's harder to do so.


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## Overwatch (Aug 24, 2018)

I’m not sure if I’ll even bother to watch this movie on blu-ray, but I AM kinda curious if Finn will once again be privy to the inner workings of some weapon of mass destruction due to having scrubbed its toilets at some point.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 24, 2018)

What they need to do is make this a shared universe...with the Carnosaur trilogy...

Kylo Ren decides to wipe out the galaxy by spreading a disease that causes all women to become pregnant with dinosaur babies, who go on their dinosaur rampages. Rey survives the birthing though and it ends with her engaging in a light saber duel with a giant T-Rex...who also wields a light saber...This is how the franchise will survive!


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## RAGING BONER (Aug 24, 2018)

Overwatch said:


> I’m not sure if I’ll even bother to watch this movie on blu-ray, but I AM kinda curious if Finn will once again be privy to the inner workings of some weapon of mass destruction due to having scrubbed its toilets at some point.


outside of serving as a soundboard for Rose's "valuable moral lessons", it's his only purpose in the story.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 24, 2018)

Overwatch said:


> I don't mind running gags, but the fact that some asshole decided to take it to the next level by making it important for the actual plot speaks volumes about the pretentiousness of the people involved.



Don't talk about George Lucas that way, just because of Jar Jar Binks!


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 24, 2018)




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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 24, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Don't talk about George Lucas that way, just because of Jar Jar Binks!


Two bad managers/=/ one good  one.


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## Skaddix (Aug 25, 2018)

Gunners said:


> Who wants that shit?
> 
> Also, I don't know how women see things, is the actor who plays Kylo supposed to be handsome?



He is the most important white male so I guess he is attractive by default. I am straight and Black so I don't see it either but I mean I can tell why a Brad Pitt is viewed as attractive so...yeah doesn't make sense to me either.


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## The Runner (Aug 25, 2018)

Gunners said:


> is the actor who plays Kylo supposed to be handsome?


People call him a young Snape with that nose and hair 
Merry, get back to Gandalf.


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## Gunners (Aug 25, 2018)

Sir Jogga said:


> People call him a young Snape with that nose and hair


Funnily enough, he's actually the right age for Snape who died when he was 38.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 25, 2018)

Sir Jogga said:


> Merry, get back to *Isengard.*



Fixed.


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## Fang (Aug 25, 2018)

What's wrong with his chin?


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 25, 2018)

Gunners said:


> Who wants that shit?
> 
> Also, I don't know how women see things, is the actor who plays Kylo supposed to be handsome?


I know girls who find Adam Driver attractive..yea.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 26, 2018)




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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 28, 2018)




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## Catalyst75 (Aug 28, 2018)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


>



Some serious star power is converging upon Episode IX.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Aug 28, 2018)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


>



Eww, at least get David Tennant instead.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 28, 2018)

What happened to his eyebrows?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 29, 2018)




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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 29, 2018)




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## Catalyst75 (Sep 20, 2018)

I think this is a smart choice, spacing out Star Wars movie released more after Episode IX.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Sep 21, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> I think this is a smart choice, spacing out Star Wars movie released more after Episode IX.


Failure accepted. Now just throw a stupid Oscar at the bitch and kick her out.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 21, 2018)

I wish he was Thrawn.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 21, 2018)

~Gesy~ said:


> What happened to his eyebrows?


He doesnt have, he is like a liZardmen or something.


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## Mider T (Sep 21, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> I wish he was Thrawn.


Thrawn already exists.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 28, 2018)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


>


THRAWN?


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## Suigetsu (Sep 28, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Thrawn already exists.


but not in real life action you dummie, besides  "le rebels" may get retconned. Cause who gives a fuck about canon at this point. Everything goes when it sucks.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 28, 2018)

Mider T said:


> No.


This is not an answer, this is spam.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 28, 2018)




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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Sep 29, 2018)

What? Why?


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## Mider T (Sep 29, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> What? Why?


$$$


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Sep 29, 2018)

Mider T said:


> $$$


Anybody did not expect at least this good a performance?


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## Mider T (Sep 29, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Anybody did not expect at least this good a performance?


English please.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Sep 29, 2018)

Mider T said:


> English please.


No flops please.


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## RAGING BONER (Sep 30, 2018)

disgusting; fuck this bitch


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## Fang (Sep 30, 2018)

I hope they enjoy three more years of Solos and continually failing merchandise sales while killing the IP.


Just an update on the shitty new CGI series: its now at 140,000 dislikes to 13k likes. Practically all the reception from fans have been universally negative. Just like that terrible and very much alienating female centric flash animated web-series, Destiny or whatever its called.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 2, 2018)

Fang said:


> I hope they enjoy three more years of Solos and continually failing merchandise sales while killing the IP.


 Let her end it.


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## BlazingInferno (Oct 20, 2018)

While I am going try to stay away from these cancerous threads, I thought this was funny to bring up 


I guess that means they didn’t like that SNL sketch a few years back then


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 27, 2018)

It sounds like what was done with Luke in "The Last Jedi" was the direction they were going for since 2013, and apparently the original idea was much darker than what we got.

And the concept for the character got George Lucas' approval, _the man who made the character._


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## Fang (Nov 27, 2018)

DIDF continues with the damage control

Lmao


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## Kaaant (Nov 27, 2018)

Give it a rest


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## Skaddix (Nov 27, 2018)

Fang said:


> DIDF continues with the damage control
> 
> Lmao



Yeah don't trust maybe when we get the tell all in 20 years or so but right now it seems deflection from KK.
Well you may hated what I did but come on trust me George would have been worse.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Nov 28, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> It sounds like what was done with Luke in "The Last Jedi" was the direction they were going for since 2013, and apparently the original idea was much darker than what we got.
> 
> And the concept for the character got George Lucas' approval, _the man who made the character._


Sith Luke>>>>>>>.Hates the Force wuss Luke.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 28, 2018)

Skaddix said:


> Yeah don't trust maybe when we get the tell all in 20 years or so but right now it seems deflection from KK.
> Well you may hated what I did but come on trust me George would have been worse.



Well, it does line up with other early concept art - Luke alone on a planet where an ancient Jedi temple is located, hiding after the Jedi Order he tried to establish was wiped out.

We got the location a while back; this just gives us an idea of what kind of character Luke would have been.

A lot can change during the planning phase, as much as certain things stay the same. I could tell you quite a bit about how much my plans for the stories I'm writing have changed over the course of years.

As to how that applies to Star Wars, SF Debris has a series of videos explaining just _how much _the original Star Wars series changed from what Lucas originally planned, to what eventually ended up on the big screen. I recommend giving them a watch.


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## Djomla (Nov 28, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Sith Luke>>>>>>>.Hates the Force wuss Luke.



Baby Luke taking his first breath is better than Rian's shitty TLJ Luke.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 28, 2018)

Djomla said:


> Baby Luke taking his first breath is better than Rian's shitty TLJ Luke.



Well, many here have never really liked anything Lucas contributed to and approved of for his own creation, so that's not really surprising you'd hate something Lucas approved of directly.

I don't envy Rian's position of having to be the one to explain why Luke was hiding out on Ahch-To, but Luke being in such a dire state was not his idea, originally. It was in the works _before _he signed on for "Last Jedi". It is indicated right there in the article that this was the direction the Sequel Trilogy was going, and it also claims George Lucas, the character's _creator_, gave his approval for the idea.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 28, 2018)

I'll put the following under spoilers in case this particular leak happens to be true and people don't want to be spoiled:


*Spoiler*: __ 




a report by _KSDK_

Lando having a daughter would be a welcome development, I think, though the "Last Shot" novel makes me wonder if this means the character's mother would be Kaasha Bateen, making her half-Twi'lek.


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## Fang (Nov 28, 2018)

@Sennin of Hardwork there was absolutely zero reason to delete my post for calling out Catalyst for lying and being disingenuous.

Especially when you  left this part of his post, intended as bait untouched:



Catalyst75 said:


> Well, *many of the Legends fanboys *here have never really liked anything Lucas contributed to and approved of for his own creation

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Nov 28, 2018)

Calling him out with a straightforward provocation rather than proving why he was lying and/or misrepresenting things with the info he provided in that link by discussing it is the reason I deleted it. And if you had reported him for generalizing the fans that like the Legends run as fanboys I would have taken action with it as well.

I'll still take in consideration what you pointed out for next time before going for deletion.


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## Fang (Nov 28, 2018)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Calling him out with a straightforward provocation rather than proving why he was lying and/or misrepresenting things with the info he provided in that link by discussing it is the reason I deleted it.



I said he was being verbatim, "disingenuous and painting a false narrative", I don't see how that's a really provocation.



> And if you had reported him for generalizing the fans that like the Legends run as fanboys I would have taken action with it as well.



I'll remember that for the future next time sure, I'll report it if it happens again.



> I'll still take in consideration what you pointed out for next time before going for deletion.



Appreciated.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 29, 2018)

No matter what anyone ever says - Rian Johnson is the person who conceived of Luke's TLJ """"arc""""

Disney can trot out all the talking heads they like to try and deflect the blame but everyone should be aware that Rian Johnson was the mastermind behind every aspect of TLJ. Honestly what pisses me off more than him fucking up one franchise is him fucking up the entire industry for probably years to come. I guarantee you that every time a studio has a discussion about "who do we get to direct this" some executive is going to be like "remember Rian Johnson, we need to retain tight creative control and keep everything very mild so that doesn't happen to us."

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zeta42 (Dec 4, 2018)

Dubious leaks say Kylo Ren will repair his helmet and make it look even edgier.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 4, 2018)

Zeta42 said:


> Dubious leaks say Kylo Ren will repair his helmet and make it look even edgier.






Nighty the Mighty said:


> No matter what anyone ever says - Rian Johnson is the person who conceived of Luke's TLJ """"arc""""
> 
> Disney can trot out all the talking heads they like to try and deflect the blame but everyone should be aware that Rian Johnson was the mastermind behind every aspect of TLJ. Honestly what pisses me off more than him fucking up one franchise is him fucking up the entire industry for probably years to come. I guarantee you that every time a studio has a discussion about "who do we get to direct this" some executive is going to be like "remember Rian Johnson, we need to retain tight creative control and keep everything very mild so that doesn't happen to us."



RJ and Luc Besson...


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## MartialHorror (Dec 4, 2018)

I don't know if Lucas or RJ were responsible for Luke's character arc in TLJ, but I've been hearing rumors since even before "The Force Awakens" entered production that Luke would go into isolation because he was afraid of his potential to give into the dark side. So it wasn't like this idea was new when "TLJ" entered production.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 4, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> I don't know if Lucas or RJ were responsible for Luke's character arc in TLJ, but I've been hearing rumors since even before "The Force Awakens" entered production that Luke would go into isolation because he was afraid of his potential to give into the dark side. So it wasn't like this idea was new when "TLJ" entered production.


Source of those rumors?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 4, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> Source of those rumors?



I honestly don't remember. I think I first heard about it when "The Force Awakens" was first announced and I was scouring the web for potential news. I BELIEVE- but I could be wrong- that I heard about this on imdb. But this doesn't necessarily mean that Lucas started the idea. It could've just been popular fan theory. 

It should be noted that technically, Luke's character arc would've come from J.J Abrams or the screen-writer anyway, since they wrote Luke into isolation. RJ, at the most, would've developed the reason. But how many reasons could you come up with? If Luke was in isolation, it would've had to be driven out of some sort of guilt.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 5, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> I honestly don't remember. I think I first heard about it when "The Force Awakens" was first announced and I was scouring the web for potential news. I BELIEVE- but I could be wrong- that I heard about this on imdb. But this doesn't necessarily mean that Lucas started the idea. It could've just been popular fan theory.
> 
> It should be noted that technically, Luke's character arc would've come from J.J Abrams or the screen-writer anyway, since they wrote Luke into isolation. RJ, at the most, would've developed the reason. But how many reasons could you come up with? If Luke was in isolation, it would've had to be driven out of some sort of guilt.



You know what would have been a way to isolate Luke while not offering a retread of the original trilogy (as well as acknowledging the issues with trying to redeem a villain instead of killing him off before it's too late)? Actually giving him a character flaw that feeds off where he succeeded last we saw him. In RotJ, Luke succeeds because he chooses to do something selfless and refuses the temptation of the Dark Side. Maybe have this route prove his undoing with Kylo. As with Vader, maybe Luke decides that Ben deserves a chance to make the right choice instead of cutting his throat while he sleeps. However, in doing so, Ben winds up having the opening he needs to betray Luke and slaughter much of his new Jedi Order.

Luke comes to, sees what happened, and wonders if maybe he was wrong to be so trusting, that maybe he should have done what was easier to spare the lives of so many, and suddenly the dark thoughts start creeping in, and he realizes to his horror that he's developing a mindset that doesn't differ too much from that of his father. Faced with this spiritual breakdown, he tries to find answers and a renewed personal balance within the birthplace of the Jedi Order.

Unfortunately, by the time Rey gets there, he realizes that he still hasn't figured things out. Not only that, but maybe his only ride off the planet got wrecked by a storm or something like that, leaving him imprisoned on both a physical and spiritual level. Rey thinks that she can pull what Luke did with Vader out of a desire to be special and be the hero of this story, but Luke, having been burned once by this approach and now questioning his past successes, tells her that it's not going to work.

It even feeds into the idea of Kylo being a different villain from his grandfather. Where Anakin made bad choices out of desperation mixed in with his character flaws, Ben wants to be special (tying him in with Rey, who is the nobody intruding into an ongoing saga and all too aware of it), and feeling like he doesn't fit in with the forces of good, tries to do right through evil. It's a choice on his part, and he keeps sticking with it even as it becomes clearer and clearer to him that he's not cut out to be the bad guy.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 5, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> You know what would have been a way to isolate Luke while not offering a retread of the original trilogy (as well as acknowledging the issues with trying to redeem a villain instead of killing him off before it's too late)? Actually giving him a character flaw that feeds off where he succeeded last we saw him. In RotJ, Luke succeeds because he chooses to do something selfless and refuses the temptation of the Dark Side. Maybe have this route prove his undoing with Kylo. As with Vader, maybe Luke decides that Ben deserves a chance to make the right choice instead of cutting his throat while he sleeps. However, in doing so, Ben winds up having the opening he needs to betray Luke and slaughter much of his new Jedi Order.
> 
> Luke comes to, sees what happened, and wonders if maybe he was wrong to be so trusting, that maybe he should have done what was easier to spare the lives of so many, and suddenly the dark thoughts start creeping in, and he realizes to his horror that he's developing a mindset that doesn't differ too much from that of his father. Faced with this spiritual breakdown, he tries to find answers and a renewed personal balance within the birthplace of the Jedi Order.
> 
> ...



I actually might prefer the idea of Luke having faith in Ben in spite of all evidence pointing towards him becoming a monster, as it shows that the same decisions that saved Vader will not work this time. I still think 'instead of cutting his throat' is a bit an exaggeration as Luke says it was a brief moment of weakness that immediately passed, but your idea is a good/potentially better alternative.

The only issue I might have with it is

- Technically, we already saw this dynamic play out when Ben killed Han. 
- Like it or not, Kylo Ren is more important to the story and a large part of "TLJ" was fleshing him out and making the audience consider whether or not he could be redeemed. If the backstory surrounded him betraying Luke, then they would have to change the majority of the narrative. There would be no question that Ben can't be trusted and Rey's motivations wouldn't be as personal.

Obviously it could've been done though.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 6, 2018)

If anything, Ben and Han could have been foreshadowing for what happened with Luke. Maybe Han could have figured that his son couldn't actually kill his own father, and then got a lightsaber through the chest. You could still keep Kylo sympathetic by emphasizing his increasing angst over the choices he's made. We could even expand on his misgivings about his path, with Rey sympathizing with his desire to form his own identity while also showing empathy for someone who at the very least is unsure about whether what he's doing is right (only for the scorpion to sting the frog). In his case, it could be emphasized that evil is a choice and that redemption means finally making the right choice instead of chasing after sunk costs or trying to justify yourself.

My idea for Luke could even serve as a meta commentary on the franchise as a whole. Star Wars made its name by providing a spark of good old fashioned idealism in a cynical world, and now, decades later, the cynicism remains. Luke's failure could parallel how past hopes (like the end of the Cold War) didn't stop things from continuing to be shitty (the War on Terror and its impact on modern life). With the new heroes however, it could be a rebuttal to the idea that Star Wars has to be grittier, greyer, and "more realistic" by illustrating that no, there is still a place for idealism in the world, reflected when Luke comes back at the end of the movie. It would even serve to rebut the whole spiel about both sides buying from weapons dealers or Kylo's desire to abandon the Light/Dark dichotomy in that apathy and compromising all your values isn't the way to go. In short, the core message of the franchise would be reiterated for a new generation.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 6, 2018)

Don't confuse the idea of Luke being a hermit with the idea of Luke being a dumbass that tried to kill his own nephew and then died for no reason at all. It's certainly true that the plan was for Luke to be a hermit hiding away from the world (I mean that's obvious because that's the premise of TFA) but that has nothing to do with the direction his character takes in TLJ.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 6, 2018)

Kuromaku said:


> If anything, Ben and Han could have been foreshadowing for what happened with Luke. Maybe Han could have figured that his son couldn't actually kill his own father, and then got a lightsaber through the chest.



Working on this idea, they could have even gone for a parallel emphasizing the importance of their choices.
Kylo who ended up giving in to his impulses by stabbing Han and Luke who had only a moment of weakness, but managed to keep himself from going with his impulses.

Heck, somehow tie it to Smoke using the dark side to try and influence their mindset in the background to make them fall to the dark side and you might have a good conflict in there.


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## Turrin (Dec 16, 2018)

darthgrim said:


> Don't confuse the idea of Luke being a hermit with the idea of Luke being a dumbass that tried to kill his own nephew and then died for no reason at all. It's certainly true that the plan was for Luke to be a hermit hiding away from the world (I mean that's obvious because that's the premise of TFA) but that has nothing to do with the direction his character takes in TLJ.


Wait so do you people who have a problem with Luke attacking Ben, actually believe Ben's side of the story? Like you believe Ben was good and Luke just freaked out and attacked him? Ignoring the entire third act of the film?

We were told the truth at the end of the film. Ben's situation is different then Vaders. While Vader was pretending to be full evil but actually didn't want to harm his son (Luke); and Luke senses this. Ben was pretending to be good and wanted to harm his fellow students; he had already fallen to Snoke's influence, and simply used Luke's attack as an excuse to justify the acts he was already preparing to do.

That's also why we have the scene of Rey arguing with Luke about saving Ren; and Luke telling Rey that Ben can't be saved; and guess what he was right.

Luke senses Ben couldn't be saved; was right; and still ultimately held back because it was his nephew.

And Luke died to save Rey in time; no other way he could do it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rax (Dec 16, 2018)

I'm curious as to who still actually holds onto hope that this'll be a good movie


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## Kaaant (Dec 16, 2018)

Na, that is bullshit lol. Even Luke admits he was out of line, and that is what’s so retarded about it.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 16, 2018)

Turrin said:


> Wait so do you people who have a problem with Luke attacking Ben, actually believe Ben's side of the story? Like you believe Ben was good and Luke just freaked out and attacked him? Ignoring the entire third act of the film?
> 
> We were told the truth at the end of the film. Ben's situation is different then Vaders. While Vader was pretending to be full evil but actually didn't want to harm his son (Luke); and Luke senses this. Ben was pretending to be good and wanted to harm his fellow students; he had already fallen to Snoke's influence, and simply used Luke's attack as an excuse to justify the acts he was already preparing to do.
> 
> ...


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## MartialHorror (Dec 16, 2018)

Responding to posts with memes just devalues anything you have to say. 

As for episode 9, I just hope it's interesting. My issue with "Solo" was how frustratingly...OK it was...At least "The Last Jedi", whether it was good or bad, was provocative. People are still obsessed with it. If Episode 9 doesn't cause the fandom to implode in a self destructive bloody orgy, I'm going to be very disappointed.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 17, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Responding to posts with memes just devalues anything you have to say.
> 
> As for episode 9, I just hope it's interesting. My issue with "Solo" was how frustratingly...OK it was...At least "The Last Jedi", whether it was good or bad, was provocative. People are still obsessed with it. If Episode 9 doesn't cause the fandom to implode in a self destructive bloody orgy, I'm going to be very disappointed.


I guess you are a a self identified troll now.
*
First and last 2 sentences be like...*


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## MartialHorror (Dec 17, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> I guess you are a a self identified troll now.
> *
> First and last 2 sentences be like...*



First off, people who make "Would Hitler do a better job than Kennedy at managing Star Wars" threads and admit they only did it for attention cannot call people trolls. 

And while I might've been a bit colorful with my language, you've spent enough time arguing with me to know that I liked "TLJ" because of its more controversial content, which I felt challenged its audiences in ways I was not expecting...so once again, you be clueless. 

This is why Kamal's should be seen, but not heard...and preferably not be seen either.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 17, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> First off, people who make "Would Hitler do a better job than Kennedy at managing Star Wars" threads and admit they only did it for attention cannot call people trolls.
> 
> And while I might've been a bit colorful with my language, you've spent enough time arguing with me to know that I liked "TLJ" because of its more controversial content, which I felt challenged its audiences in ways I was not expecting...so once again, you be clueless.
> 
> This is why Kamal's should be seen, but not heard...and preferably not be seen either.


I said you self identify as such you don't see me using it much.

Second if i theoretically post something once to get a rise out of someone does not make me a false flag poster.


I don't know if you are Disney politics fan or an actual TLJ fan. I don't remeber every little detail we argued about.  You know how it comes across to someone competely unfamilair with you.

This whole non personning does not work, hate to break it for you.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 17, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> I said you self identify as such you don't see me using it much.
> 
> *Second if i theoretically post something once to get a rise out of someone *does not make me a false flag poster.
> 
> ...



Isn't that what a troll is?


And oi, if you don't know what I feel about TLJ after all this time, then I can't help you.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 17, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Isn't that what a troll is?
> 
> 
> And oi, if you don't know what I feel about TLJ after all this time, then I can't help you.


That is not how it  is used and i only use it by accident because of that reason. Would you brand someone a thief because he shoplifted once?

Okay, that is how you say you feel. i try to keep it mind or i might forget. Who the fuck knows. This is basically Cafe 2.0, does not deserve much concentration.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 17, 2018)

Turrin said:


> Wait so do you people who have a problem with Luke attacking Ben, actually believe Ben's side of the story? Like you believe Ben was good and Luke just freaked out and attacked him? Ignoring the entire third act of the film?
> 
> We were told the truth at the end of the film. Ben's situation is different then Vaders. While Vader was pretending to be full evil but actually didn't want to harm his son (Luke); and Luke senses this. Ben was pretending to be good and wanted to harm his fellow students; he had already fallen to Snoke's influence, and simply used Luke's attack as an excuse to justify the acts he was already preparing to do.
> 
> ...



It's not about the Rashomon of who is telling the real truth of the Ben Solo vs Luke Skywalker conflict - it's about how the whole point of episode 6 is that Luke triumphs over evil through forgiveness and pacifism. Episode 8 doesn't build up Ben's descent into villainy at all and the audience is never shown or really even told that Kylo Red is completely irredeemable (if anything the exact opposite) and if the intent was to establish your supposition (that Ben is categorically different to Vader (in and of itself this idea is complete insanity but whatever we'll roll with it)) then it's poor film making. If the audience is asked the believe that Luke - out of nowhere - would decide to try and murder his student in cold blood then the film needs to have an explanation for why this is beyond "well the plot says this happens so it happens" because that's not a good way to tell the story.

By the way - Luke didn't die to save Rey because she was never in danger; he died to save Leia and the surviving 12 members of the Resistance (can we talk about how stupid every single word in this sentence is or is that a different topic?). Well actually no - he died because Rian Johnson wanted to draw an Obi-Wan parallel without bothering to figure out a good way to make that happen so he just said fuck it. The film does a poor job explaining the necessity of Luke's sacrifice (unlike Obi-Wan's) and it's thematically inconsistent with the message from five minutes earlier that noble sacrifices aren't a good thing (which in turn is inconsistent with the Admiral Holdo lightspeed rams a ship scene). Not only this it isn't even clear WHY Luke died. Obi-wan died because he was cut with a lightsaber (well he ascended before the cut but you get the point) while Luke dies because he... overexerted himself? Because he let his projection get cut? Because he wanted to? It's not clear and because it's not clear it comes across as trite and unnecessary.

The only thing the Last Jedi does that is even remotely interesting is the Kylo Ren/Rey stuff - pretty much everything else is either boring, dumb, bad or some combination of the above. The only reason to see episode 9 (and I don't even know if I will at this point) is to get the conclusion to that story. I couldn't give less of a fuck about Luke's force ghost or Lando or whoever else they're bringing out of the closet now that Carrier Fischer is dead.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2018)

> episode 6 is that Luke triumphs over evil through forgiveness and pacifism.


ep8 Luke is ~30+ years older than ep 6 Luke

shit happens

*and he never actually physically swung the saber at Ren at all* 


I can see why the bitching about Lukes death, but this one ..


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## Mider T (Dec 17, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> This is basically Cafe 2.0, does not deserve much concentration.


Have you ever seen a user so traumatized by a section?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 17, 2018)

Mider T said:


> Have you ever seen a user so traumatized by a section?


You are mixing me up with that Seto kaiba coward?


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## Kaaant (Dec 17, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> ep8 Luke is ~30+ years older than ep 6 Luke
> 
> shit happens
> 
> ...



No it doesn’t lol. It’s not believable. He’s not the kind of man to murder a kid in their sleep, the passing of time is a pathetic excuse.


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## Turrin (Dec 17, 2018)

darthgrim said:


> It's not about the Rashomon of who is telling the real truth of the Ben Solo vs Luke Skywalker conflict - it's about how the whole point of episode 6 is that Luke triumphs over evil through forgiveness and pacifism. Episode 8 doesn't build up Ben's descent into villainy at all and the audience is never shown or really even told that Kylo Red is completely irredeemable (if anything the exact opposite) and if the intent was to establish your supposition (that Ben is categorically different to Vader (in and of itself this idea is complete insanity but whatever we'll roll with it)) then it's poor film making. If the audience is asked the believe that Luke - out of nowhere - would decide to try and murder his student in cold blood then the film needs to have an explanation for why this is beyond "well the plot says this happens so it happens" because that's not a good way to tell the story.


Huh? TFA shows that Ben is different then Vader. Ben makes the active choice to murder his Father in TFA; while Vader's entire motivation is to avoid the deaths of his family members. That was the importances of that entire scene in TFA and why Snoke / Ben placed such importance on it; cause Ben was undergoing the same Test as Vader. Han played the same role as Luke in Return of the Jedi, and reached out for his son laying down his weapon; but unlike Vader who then returned to the light to save his family; Ben turned further to the dark killing his father. 

Luke sensed this greater darkness in Ben and that Ben could not be redeemed like Vader was; that's why he attacked Ben instead of resorting to pacifism like Vader; because he knew it wouldn't work. And the events of the TFA proves that Luke was right, as even Han could not save Ben this way.

As far as the TLJ goes, Johnson directed the first 2 Acts specifically to trick audiences into making them forget the above and believe that maybe Ben can be redeemed. Johnson wanted viewers to be believing that somehow Rey who redeem Ben through playing the new Luke Skywalker. This is to set up the scene where Ben betrays Snoke to throw viewers off and believe Ben may be coming back to the light side; only for the viewers to fall alongside Rey, when it's revealed that none of that shit worked and Ben wasn't redeemed. In the end once again proving that Luke was right, and Ben couldn't be redeemed that way. 

People upset about this, imo are people who are still stuck being tricked by the first 2 Acts believing that Ben is the same as Vader and can be redeemed the same way; and that Luke is written OOC because he reacted differently to Vader the Ben, despite them being the same. But they aren't; both TFA and TLJ establish Ben as a different darker threat. Things to quote Luke aren't always going to go the way you think.



> By the way - Luke didn't die to save Rey because she was never in danger; he died to save Leia and the surviving 12 members of the Resistance (can we talk about how stupid every single word in this sentence is or is that a different topic?). Well actually no - he died because Rian Johnson wanted to draw an Obi-Wan parallel without bothering to figure out a good way to make that happen so he just said fuck it. The film does a poor job explaining the necessity of Luke's sacrifice (unlike Obi-Wan's) and it's thematically inconsistent with the message from five minutes earlier that noble sacrifices aren't a good thing (which in turn is inconsistent with the Admiral Holdo lightspeed rams a ship scene). Not only this it isn't even clear WHY Luke died. Obi-wan died because he was cut with a lightsaber (well he ascended before the cut but you get the point) while Luke dies because he... overexerted himself? Because he let his projection get cut? Because he wanted to? It's not clear and because it's not clear it comes across as trite and unnecessary.


If Luke didn't stall Ren and the first order; Ren would have raided the base and most likely found the escape route not just endangering Leia but also Rey. He did it to protect everyone there, Rey included. Not sure what other explanation you need to justify the sacrifice?

As far as the conflicting message goes; the message to me wasn't that noble sacrifices are wrong, it's that they are not always the right answer. In Finns case their was other options while in the case of the other two their wasn't. Holdo had no way to accomplish what she did w/o the sacrifice and nether did Luke. Also not sure why your having a problem with the idea that overusing the force can lead to death.



> The only thing the Last Jedi does that is even remotely interesting is the Kylo Ren/Rey stuff - pretty much everything else is either boring, dumb, bad or some combination of the above. The only reason to see episode 9 (and I don't even know if I will at this point) is to get the conclusion to that story. I couldn't give less of a fuck about Luke's force ghost or Lando or whoever else they're bringing out of the closet now that Carrier Fischer is dead.


That's your opinion. I think TLJ does a good job with the Rey, Luke, and Ren story throughout. That's not to say TLJ doesn't have flaws as it does; the main issue was the entire Finn/Casino world plot which helped provide some character development, but the pay off wasn't worth the amount of time invested in it; and it really seems like Johnson and the writers didn't know what to do with Poe and Finns characters in this movie. All that extra time would have been better spent fleshing out Snoke and the First Order more considering that it would potentially be Snoke's last movie.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 17, 2018)

Turrin said:


> Huh? TFA shows that Ben is different then Vader. Ben makes the active choice to murder his Father in TFA; while Vader's entire motivation is to avoid the deaths of his family members. That was the importances of that entire scene in TFA and why Snoke / Ben placed such importance on it; cause Ben was undergoing the same Test as Vader. Han played the same role as Luke in Return of the Jedi, and reached out for his son laying down his weapon; but unlike Vader who then returned to the light to save his family; Ben turned further to the dark killing his father.
> 
> Luke sensed this greater darkness in Ben and that Ben could not be redeemed like Vader was; that's why he attacked Ben instead of resorting to pacifism like Vader; because he knew it wouldn't work. And the events of the TFA proves that Luke was right, as even Han could not save Ben this way.
> 
> ...



All this massive wall of incorrect text is telling me is that you're too dumb to understand that twists and turns are not what makes things with twists and turns in them good or interesting.

When Kylo Ren gets redeemed in episode 9 I'm sure you'll be the first in line to apologise for how wrong you are.


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## Kaaant (Dec 17, 2018)

>Ben killing his dad makes him different 

Vader killed his own wife lol. How is it any different.


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## Turrin (Dec 17, 2018)

darthgrim said:


> All this massive wall of incorrect text is telling me is that you're too dumb to understand that twists and turns are not what makes things with twists and turns in them good or interesting.
> 
> When Kylo Ren gets redeemed in episode 9 I'm sure you'll be the first in line to apologise for how wrong you are.


1) And this personal attack just shows me that you don't have a real argument
2) I never said Ben couldn't be turned I said he couldn't be turned the way Vader was; it will take something more, if it happens at all.


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## Turrin (Dec 17, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> >Ben killing his dad makes him different
> 
> Vader killed his own wife lol. How is it any different.


Vader turned to the Darkside in large part to save Padmae. He hurt Padmae more then he intended by accident in his rage causing complications in her pregnancy and her giving birth prematurely; and honestly he really didn't even kill her she just kind of died due to a broken heart or some other bullshit (not here to defend the prequels).

In Ben's case he made a conscious decision to kill his father to step further into the Darkness. That is much different then what occurred with Vader


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## Kaaant (Dec 17, 2018)

He was choking her out because he didn’t want to kill her in that moment

Genius


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## Turrin (Dec 17, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> He was choking her out because he didn’t want to kill her in that moment
> 
> Genius


Vader chokes people out all the time that he doesn't kill, what are you on about.


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## Kaaant (Dec 17, 2018)

Why was he choking his wife then. She’s not one of his officers lmfao


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## Turrin (Dec 17, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Why was he choking his wife then retard. She’s not one of his officers lmfao


Vader being pissed at his wife and choking her doesn't mean he intended to kill her. Not a hard concept to understand.


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## Kaaant (Dec 17, 2018)

He had to be told numerous times to let her go. 

You might’ve changed your name but you’re still special needs


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## MartialHorror (Dec 17, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> >Ben killing his dad makes him different
> 
> Vader killed his own wife lol. How is it any different.



Er, Vader killed his wife by accident. He force choked her in the heat of the moment...and technically, didn't she die of a 'broken heart' or some shirt like that? Kylo Ren made a deliberate choice to murder his Father in cold blood.

Reading more of your posts, you don't seem to realize how passion killings work. But it's a mute point anyway, as you just want to fight with him, based on how you seem more interested in name calling than debating the point. 



The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> That is not how it  is used and i only use it by accident because of that reason. *Would you brand someone a thief because he shoplifted once?*
> 
> Okay, that is how you say you feel. i try to keep it mind or i might forget. Who the fuck knows. *This is basically Cafe 2.0, does not deserve much concentration*.



-That is generally what happens when someone is caught shoplifting. 
- Then do something that requires a little more concentration? Or at least don't be willing to engage me unless you have something useful to say? 




darthgrim said:


> It's not about the Rashomon of who is telling the real truth of the Ben Solo vs Luke Skywalker conflict - it's about how the whole point of episode 6 is that Luke triumphs over evil through forgiveness and pacifism. Episode 8 doesn't build up Ben's descent into villainy at all and* the audience is never shown or really even told that Kylo Red is completely irredeemable* (if anything the exact opposite) and if the intent was to establish your supposition (that Ben is categorically different to Vader (in and of itself this idea is complete insanity but whatever we'll roll with it)) then it's poor film making. *If the audience is asked the believe that Luke - out of nowhere - would decide to try and murder his student in cold blood then the film needs to have an explanation for why this is beyond "well the plot says this happens so it happens" because that's not a good way to tell the story.*
> 
> By the way - Luke didn't die to save Rey because she was never in danger; he died to save Leia and the surviving 12 members of the Resistance (can we talk about how stupid every single word in this sentence is or is that a different topic?). Well actually no - he died because Rian Johnson wanted to draw an Obi-Wan parallel without bothering to figure out a good way to make that happen so he just said fuck it. The film does a poor job explaining the necessity of Luke's sacrifice (unlike Obi-Wan's) and it's thematically inconsistent with the message from five minutes earlier that noble sacrifices aren't a good thing (which in turn is inconsistent with the Admiral Holdo lightspeed rams a ship scene). Not only this it isn't even clear WHY Luke died. *Obi-wan died because he was cut with a lightsaber (well he ascended before the cut but you get the point) while Luke dies because he... overexerted himself? Because he let his projection get cut? Because he wanted to? It's not clear and because it's not clear it comes across as trite and unnecessary.*
> 
> The only thing the Last Jedi does that is even remotely interesting is the Kylo Ren/Rey stuff - pretty much everything else is either boring, dumb, bad or some combination of the above. *The only reason to see episode 9 (and I don't even know if I will at this point) is to get the conclusion to that story. I couldn't give less of a fuck about Luke's force ghost or Lando or whoever else they're bringing out of the closet now that Carrier Fischer is dead*.



- He crossed that bridge in "The Force Awakens". Even though Kylo Ren turning to the dark side is shown through flashbacks, it was still shown after he had killed Han Solo in "TFA". Flashbacks are often used as a part of natural story progression. In this case, they were used more to reveal Luke's character arc, not Kylo's. They make it clear that Ben was already in the middle of being seduced by Snoke (I'll gift you that image for Christmas). At best, Luke's "betrayal" was the final straw. But the dark side had already won within him. 

- I still struggle with understanding this point. "Out of nowhere" isn't correct because in the midst of the visuals, he's giving monologue about how he saw a vision of everything Kylo Ren was about to do and he had already known Snoke had already gotten to him. Everyone also seems to forget that he didn't 'decide to kill him in cold blood'. He was 'tempted' to kill him, but then didn't. I guess people point out that he went so far as to activate his light saber, but this is a franchise that has always been overly dramatic. Luke gets a full scene mourning Obi Wan Kenobi, but his reaction to the people who raised him getting brutally murdered is glanced over. Did he care for Obi Wan more than them? Probably not, but it's more about how the audience is supposed to react. We don't know the Aunt and Uncle enough to mourn for them, but we've grown attached to Obi Wan, so Luke angsting about his death is for us. 

- Actually, this doesn't even really make sense in the OT. Obi Wan says he'll be more powerful than ever before, but I don't remember any of the original movies explaining why this is. The Prequels try to explain this, but honestly, I found that hole filling to be pretty stupid on its own. Let me ask you this, if Obi Wan ascended instead of "dying", why did Luke "die" and not ascend? I assumed he ultimately embraced the same fate as Obi Wan, in that he simply became one with the force. I agree that it's still kind of...vague? But it's a flaw that has been an issue since the original film. 

- I assume everyone who insists that they won't see Episode 9 is in denial. They wouldn't be here, making lengthy and well thought out posts if they weren't. You'll see it, if only to be angry about it. It's sort of like me and the "Puppet Master" franchise. I can write a book about how much I hate it, but I dread every new release, because deep down...I know I won't be able to stop it from reaching my television...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 17, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> -That is generally what happens when someone is caught shoplifting.
> - Then do something that requires a little more concentration? Or at least don't be willing to engage me unless you have something useful to say?



People are willing to look  past petty theft.

What is the usefull about this site like at all?

You say you will not engage me. what prevents you from living up to your own promise.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 17, 2018)

The Kamal Haasan Crazy Hour said:


> People are willing to look  past petty theft.
> 
> What is the usefull about this site like at all?
> 
> *You say you will not engage me. what prevents you from living up to your own promise.*



Good point. Bye Felicia.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 17, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Good point. Bye Felicia.


I think i am the man in this relationship, not you.


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## Kaaant (Dec 17, 2018)

MartialHorror said:


> Er, Vader killed his wife by accident. He force choked her in the heat of the moment...and technically, didn't she die of a 'broken heart' or some shirt like that? Kylo Ren made a deliberate choice to murder his Father in cold blood.
> 
> Reading more of your posts, you don't seem to realize how passion killings work. But it's a mute point anyway, as you just want to fight with him, based on how you seem more interested in name calling than debating the point.



>a mute point.

Anakin is directly responsible for her death. He attempted to kill her at that moment, it is not different to the reality of the absolute fable he is trying to spin about Vader never trying to kill loved ones. He did it in 3. He did it in 4.

And was willing to do it in 5.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 17, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> >a mute point.
> 
> Anakin is directly responsible for her death. He attempted to kill her at that moment, it is not different to the reality of the absolute fable he is trying to spin about Vader never trying to kill loved ones. He did it in 3. He did it in 4.
> 
> And was willing to do it in 5.



I'm not saying Vader never tried to kill loved ones, but it's still not quite the same. When Anakin killed Padme, he was lashing out angrily, but he didn't mean to kill her. He didn't seem like he wanted to kill Luke after realizing he was his son. If anything, he seemed like he wanted Luke to kill him.

Actually, Anakin and Ben are often so opposite that I'm pretty sure Kylo Ren was designed to be a complete foil to Vader. Anakin did coldly murder all of the Jedi apprentices, whereas Kylo Ren seemingly lashed out at them after Luke's "betrayal" (admittedly, this could be wrong, as we've yet to actually see it). Anakin began as a good person who was ultimately undone by his inability to control his emotions. Ben seemingly began as a bad person who is continuously being undone by his inability to control his emotions. 

Anakin's fall often was rooted in spur of the moment actions, like him killing Dooku, Mace Windu and ultimately Padme. He felt horrible after each time, but those moments ended up defining him. But Anakin still tried to be the good guy and spent most of the time in the prequels trying to do what was right. Ben, on the other hand, wants to be the bad guy. Yet he also gets caught up in the moment and will do something "good", whether intended or not. Whether this is bonding with Rey, sparing Leia's life, killing Snoke or...stupidly trying to duel Luke to determine the fate of the rebels. 

So he's not irredeemable, but the same methods that worked on Vader won't necessarily work here. This is where I sometimes feel haters and fans tend to...prematurely judge this kind of stuff? You're all speculating whether or not Kylo Ren will be redeemed, but let me ask you this, did Vader seem like he could be redeemed in "The Empire Strikes Back"? If anything, he seemed more villainous in that one than he did in the original. But "Return of the Jedi" retroactively developed the character and everyone loved it...even if it sort of came out of nowhere.

So it's hard to compare and contrast them, when Vader's arc has been completed...twice...whereas Kylo Ren still has to finish his first.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 20, 2018)

Disney is making nice unwoke moves with ESPN.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2018)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Disney is making nice unwoke moves with ESPN.



Point me to the part where this has something to do with Star Wars


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 20, 2018)

~Gesy~ said:


> Point me to the part where this has something to do with Star Wars


Where Dinsey goes, Star Wars goes.


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## Mider T (Dec 20, 2018)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Where Dinsey goes, Star Wars goes.


Disney*


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2018)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Where Dinsey goes, Star Wars goes.


Can you? Go? Somewhere? Anywhere?


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2018)

Please ?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 20, 2018)

~Gesy~ said:


> Can you? Go? Somewhere? Anywhere?


Hell no, i like big ass avatars and give no fucks about being disliked.


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## Pilaf (Dec 23, 2018)

It'll be interesting to see how JJ fixes the shitstorm Rian Johnson put us through. If he's able to.


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## Suigetsu (Dec 23, 2018)

Pilaf said:


> It'll be interesting to see how JJ fixes the shitstorm Rian Johnson put us through. If he's able to.


He wont, a hack cant fix the mess of another hack.


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## Pilaf (Dec 23, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> He wont, a hack cant fix the mess of another hack.




Who's the more hackish? The hack or the hack who follows the hack?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 23, 2018)

I am looking forward to Rian Johnson's murder mystery. Hollywood needs more mainstream murder mysteries.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 23, 2018)

So, I heard the last movie will be set one year later from the second.
Maybe the rebels will be able to expend beyond a dozen members.

Also the next generation plotline probably won't go in effect since broom kid jedi won't be old enough to contribute.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 24, 2018)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> So, I heard the last movie will be set one year later from the second.
> Maybe the rebels will be able to expend beyond a dozen members.



We know they will, if we can take this teaser for Galaxy's Edge as canon: 
Luke reaffirmed his legend by facing the First Order at the end of "The Last Jedi", and Leia is alive and able to lead the Resistance. I imagine that, knowing the First Order can be beaten, the many groups in the galaxy, old allies and new ones, will join the rebels.

After all, the Resistance successfully destroyed Starkiller Base, Snoke is dead, and the remaining Resistance fighters know the _Supremacy _and most of her escort were destroyed pursuing them. Just as the destruction of the Death Stars and Palpatine's death were rallying cries for the old Rebel Alliance, all of the above would also serve to draw allies to the Resistance's side, once the galaxy is made aware of said events, and that the First Order is not as unbeatable as the destruction of Hosnian Prime would have led many to believe.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Dec 24, 2018)

Suigetsu said:


> He wont, a hack cant fix the mess of another hack.


People stop saying when someone is not very good that he is a hack.

He can direct a movie, maybe not a great one but he can make one.



ClandestineSchemer said:


> So, I heard the last movie will be set one year later from the second.
> Maybe the rebels will be able to expend beyond a dozen members.
> 
> Also the next generation plotline probably won't go in effect since broom kid jedi won't be old enough to contribute.



A Jedi comes back from the Unknown Regions.

Boom, SOLVED.


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## dr_shadow (Jan 3, 2019)

Happy 2019, everyone.

I propose making thie the main Star Wars thread now thar we're in the year it will come out.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jan 4, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Happy 2019, everyone.
> 
> I propose making thie the main Star Wars thread now thar we're in the year it will come out.


The movie not coming out would not surprise me at this point.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Feb 15, 2019)




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## Kaaant (Feb 15, 2019)

This is supposed to be the new trio and they haven’t even all been in the same room before the last scene in tlj

Looks like they’re on not tatooine again 

And rey wearing more bandages with a slightly different colour


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## Djomla (Feb 15, 2019)

Let us hope it won't be shitty as the previous one! :3

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rukia (Feb 15, 2019)

Djomla said:


> Let us hope it won't be shitty as the previous one! :3


I won’t even give it a chance tbh.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 15, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> fixes the shitstorm


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## Indra (Feb 15, 2019)

Rukia said:


> I won’t even give it a chance tbh.


That trailer about to hype as fuck tho 

First two trailers were better than the actual movies


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## Pocalypse (Feb 15, 2019)

Jumanji 2 will open up this film's ass crack wide open.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Atlas (Feb 15, 2019)

Rukia said:


> I won’t even give it a chance tbh.



So glad I waited for reviews before deciding to see TLJ


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## Kuromaku (Feb 16, 2019)

It'll probably be watchable. Not great, not horrible, but a way to waste a couple of hours. It'll probably be generically decent enough in a JJ/corporate way to impress at least 80% of critics without being anything on par with a better but more divisive picture. Still questioning whether I want to even see it in theaters though.

Congrats to Kathleen Kennedy, RJ, and Disney for doing what the prequels and years of no movies couldn't: they killed much of my interest in the franchise.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 16, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> It'll probably be watchable. Not great, not horrible, but a way to waste a couple of hours.


Can't say that about TLJ. Highbars I guess.


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## Aeternus (Feb 16, 2019)

I think quality-wise it will be like TFA. I'm more curious to see to see how it is going to perform commercially.


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## Zef (Feb 16, 2019)

Kaaant said:


> This is supposed to be *the new trio and they haven’t even all been in the same room before the last scene in tlj*


This is one of the many reasons why Last Jedi is such a shit film.
RJ was supposed to use episode 8 to expand on Force Awakens, but instead he threw out the buildup and decided to do his own standalone film.

Now these characters stories are about to conclude, and they have no deep connection with the audience or with each other. The newest trilogy is about to exit without anyone giving a fuck, and its all because Rian Johnson wanted to be a fake deep contrarian.

God I hate that man

Reactions: Like 1


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 16, 2019)

Zef said:


> This is one of the many reasons why Last Jedi is such a shit film.
> RJ was supposed to use episode 8 to expand on Force Awakens, but instead he threw out the buildup and decided to do his own standalone film.
> 
> Now these characters stories are about to conclude, and they have no deep connection with the audience or with each other. The newest trilogy is about to exit without anyone giving a fuck, and its all because Rian Johnson wanted to be a fake deep contrarian.
> ...


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## Mider T (Feb 16, 2019)

Pocalypse said:


> Jumanji 2 will open up this film's ass crack wide open.


This is Star Wars, be real for a minute.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 16, 2019)

Zef said:


> This is one of the many reasons why Last Jedi is such a shit film.
> RJ was supposed to use episode 8 to expand on Force Awakens, but instead he threw out the buildup and decided to do his own standalone film.
> 
> Now these characters stories are about to conclude, and they have no deep connection with the audience or with each other. The newest trilogy is about to exit without anyone giving a fuck, and its all because Rian Johnson wanted to be a fake deep contrarian.
> ...



To be fair, this was actually an issue I had with the original trilogy as well -- Luke spends VERY little time with Han and Leia in Episode 5 and 6. It is especially irritating because I really enjoyed Luke and Han's banter far more than anything within the NT. 

So blaming RJ for this specifically seems somewhat unwarranted, as he's more or less doing what "The Empire Strikes Back" always did and it was frustrating back then too.


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## Pocalypse (Feb 16, 2019)

Mider T said:


> This is Star Wars, be real for a minute.



The first one was a few million shy off from making a billion. Jumanji 2 is legit competition for Star Wars.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Feb 16, 2019)

I'll be using the Luffy method to see this, this trilogy definitely isn't worth being a marine for.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 16, 2019)

Mider T said:


> This is Star Wars, be real for a minute.





Pocalypse said:


> The first one was a few million shy off from making a billion. Jumanji 2 is legit competition for Star Wars.



Yup. "Jumanji" was a shockingly big success, while "Star Wars" isn't doing as well as everyone thought it would. I'd be surprised if "Jumanji 2" actually beats "Episode 9", but it might be close.


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## Pocalypse (Feb 16, 2019)

Jumanji 2 will be on the up while Star Wars will be on the down. I don't see Episode 9 making more than TLJ given TLJ's reception (I expect less).


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## MartialHorror (Feb 16, 2019)

Pocalypse said:


> Jumanji 2 will be on the up while Star Wars will be on the down. I don't see Episode 9 making more than TLJ given TLJ's reception (I expect less).



Yeah, but 'the final chapter' usually experiences a boost. Usually.

Also, maybe it's too early to call "Jumanji 2" a guaranteed hit, as the "Alice in Wonderland" sequel was a flop in spite of the first film making a billion dollars. It will ultimately come down to quality and marketing. 

Same with "Star Wars" though. Regardless of whether "TLJ" was good or bad, people were complaining about its underwhelming marketing campaign from the first teaser (Whereas "TFA" boasted one of the best marketing campaigns of all time).


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## MShadows (Feb 24, 2019)

After TLJ I just can't get excited for this sequel, which goes to say how much of a train wreck it was. 

However, since this one is one will be directed by J. J. Abrams, (the guy who also took care of The Force Awakens, which despite having its fair share of flaws is still tiers above TLJ) I'm hoping maybe he can salvage whatever is left of the ship that Rian Johnson sunk.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Feb 24, 2019)

MShadows said:


> After TLJ I just can't get excited for this sequel, which goes to say how much of a train wreck it was.
> 
> However, since this one is one will be directed by J. J. Abrams, (the guy who also took care of The Force Awakens, which despite having its fair share of flaws is still tiers above TLJ) I'm hoping maybe he can salvage whatever is left of the ship that Rian Johnson sunk.


Any 2 million dollar PM Entertainment movie is better. It just has to know what it is not some meta commentary and far left political fever dream.


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## Suigetsu (Feb 24, 2019)

MShadows said:


> After TLJ I just can't get excited for this sequel, which goes to say how much of a train wreck it was.
> 
> However, since this one is one will be directed by J. J. Abrams, (the guy who also took care of The Force Awakens, which despite having its fair share of flaws is still tiers above TLJ) I'm hoping maybe he can salvage whatever is left of the ship that Rian Johnson sunk.


Disney’s coven of sjw are the ones who sank it, lucasfilm has become a sjw covenant.


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## Mob (Mar 1, 2019)

Nothing can salvage this trilogy anymore, movie will suck ass


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## Zef (Mar 2, 2019)

How does a company as big as Disney fuck up a whole trilogy?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Mar 2, 2019)

Zef said:


> How does a company as big as Disney fuck up a whole trilogy?


Politics + groupthink.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 5, 2019)




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## Zef (Mar 5, 2019)

They may as well hold off on releasing the third film.
The Star Wars brand is damaged because of TLJ. Release the third film after 3-5 years when people have forgotten how bad the previous two movies were.


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## Mider T (Mar 8, 2019)

mob said:


> Nothing can salvage this trilogy anymore, movie will suck ass


Moviegoers don't hate this as much as internet people do.  I'm still enjoying it.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Mar 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Moviegoers don't hate this as much as internet people do.  I'm still enjoying it.


Pretty sure if you talk a lot about politics on the net you are Internet people.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 9, 2019)




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## Mider T (Mar 9, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Pretty sure if you talk a lot about politics on the net you are Internet people.


Not sure what you're talking about or what that has to do with what I said but whatever.


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## Pocalypse (Mar 9, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



It's pathetic they have to kill off iconic characters for the last film of this trilogy. What's the point? This is the last film of this Rey saga anyway.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Mar 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Not sure what you're talking about or what that has to do with what I said but whatever.


It has everything to do with what you said.


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## Mider T (Mar 9, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> It has everything to do with what you said.


No it doesn't and you can't explain how it does either


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## Zef (Mar 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Moviegoers don't hate this as much as internet people do.  I'm still enjoying it.


>Implying moviegoers don't use the internet


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## Mider T (Mar 9, 2019)

Zef said:


> >Implying moviegoers don't use the internet


I didn't imply that at all.


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## Zef (Mar 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> I didn't imply that at all.





Mider T said:


> *Moviegoers don't hate this as much as internet people do. *


How else is the bold supposed to be taken as?

You're acting like moviegoers is a different demographic from Internet people.
But its 2019, almost everyone uses the internet nowadays.


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## ~Gesy~ (Mar 9, 2019)

I wish there was a counter we can use to count how many times Kamal says the word "politics".


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## Karma (Mar 9, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I wish there was a counter we can use to count how many times Kamal says the word "politics".


Just divide his post count by 2.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Mar 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> No it doesn't and you can't explain how it does either


I don't think you actually want to debate...


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## Mider T (Mar 9, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> I don't think you actually want to debate...


Whether I want to or not is irrelevant because you lack the ability.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Mar 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Whether I want to or not is irrelevant because you lack the ability.


It's pretty damn fucking relevant to how we engage. I am good thank you wery much. i never vried to the mods to get anyone banned.


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## Pocalypse (Mar 9, 2019)

Tbf Kamal 80% of the shit you say is incomprehensible so it's hard for people to debate with you


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## Atlas (Mar 9, 2019)

Pocalypse said:


> Tbf Kamal 80% of the shit you say is incomprehensible so it's hard for people to debate with you



I think 80% is being pretty generous.


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## Fang (Mar 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Moviegoers don't hate this as much as internet people do.  I'm still enjoying it.



Reactions with TLJ and Solo disagree and those are mainly from casual fans.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 9, 2019)

Pocalypse said:


> Tbf Kamal 80% of the shit you say is incomprehensible so it's hard for people to debate with you





Atlas said:


> I think 80% is being pretty generous.



I usually have to ask him to do a follow-up post, so he can clarify WTF he's talking about.


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## Mider T (Mar 9, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> i never vried to the mods to get anyone banned


I've never "vried" to anyone to do anything.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Mar 10, 2019)

Mider T said:


> I've never "vried" to anyone to do anything.


You fully embrace the miserable culture of the Leftist Vanguards, so....



Pocalypse said:


> Tbf Kamal 80% of the shit you say is incomprehensible so it's hard for people to debate with you



It's hard to type proper when i barely respect anyone in NF....



MartialHorror said:


> I usually have to ask him to do a follow-up post, so he can clarify WTF he's talking about.



I read just as much Leftist stuff as Right wing stuff. it almost never happens to me.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 10, 2019)

Pocalypse said:


> Tbf Kamal 80% of the shit you say is incomprehensible so it's hard for people to debate with you


Mider is harder to understand than Kamal tbh


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## Zef (Mar 10, 2019)

Even if majority of people liked TLJ for whatever reason what do they have to look forward to in the next movie?


Snoke = Dead

Phasma = Dead, and if not she already got beat two times

Han & Luke = Dead

Leia = Actress is dead

Rey's background = Nobody

Kylo = Keeps flip-flopping

Finn = No one cares about anymore/just comic relief

Poe = Has a little potential, but its the third film

Asain Chick = Most people hate

There is legitimately no incentive to watch the third film.

Who's gonna be the villain? Kylo is going to be redeemed and Snoke and Phasma are dead.

And no one cares about the remaining heroes.

Disney's experiment with Star Wars has failed.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 13, 2019)




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## ~Gesy~ (Mar 13, 2019)

All this stuff is cute and all...but trailer when?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 13, 2019)

During the panel I assume which makes sense. They did the same thing in 2017 with the first teaser of TLJ.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Mar 13, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> During the panel I assume which makes sense. They did the same thing in 2017 with the first teaser of TLJ.


More innocent times...


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 27, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Mar 27, 2019)

Kylo wearing the mask again goes against the message of the last film

But Hey! The Knights of Ren!


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 27, 2019)




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## Aeternus (Mar 27, 2019)

Jannah and Zorii? Who are those?


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## Mob (Mar 27, 2019)




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## MrPopo (Mar 27, 2019)

I wonder how disney is gonna kill off  Lando


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## Skaddix (Mar 27, 2019)

Does he die before Chewie or after?


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## Son Of Man (Mar 27, 2019)

Lando will die with his girlfriend the Falcon


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## Fang (Mar 27, 2019)

Meh


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 27, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> Lando will die with his girlfriend the Falcon


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## Atlas (Mar 27, 2019)

C3PO


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## MartialHorror (Mar 27, 2019)

I remember JJ Abrams promising that there would be an LGBT character in this trilogy once...

I'm expecting a C3PO coming out party.


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## Kuromaku (Mar 28, 2019)

You know, looking at the posters for the Sequel Trilogy really makes me think of all the little ways where the new films just don't really feel like Star Wars. Aside from certain parts of the movies themselves (the writing, the cinematography, the music), the way they're advertised just doesn't fit with what was previously established. The older films all had painted posters that not only invoked a sense of some grand adventure, but also called back to an earlier time that the movies themselves took as inspiration. The new posters are all standard Photoshop jobs that feel just plain generic and overly modern.


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## Son Of Man (Mar 28, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I remember JJ Abrams promising that there would be an LGBT character in this trilogy once...
> 
> I'm expecting a C3PO coming out party.


Poe an finn


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## MartialHorror (Mar 28, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> You know, looking at the posters for the Sequel Trilogy really makes me think of all the little ways where the new films just don't really feel like Star Wars. Aside from certain parts of the movies themselves (the writing, the cinematography, the music), the way they're advertised just doesn't fit with what was previously established. The older films all had painted posters that not only invoked a sense of some grand adventure, but also called back to an earlier time that the movies themselves took as inspiration. The new posters are all standard Photoshop jobs that feel just plain generic and overly modern.



It's a dying artform. These days, very little work ever seems to be put into the posters.

I mean, I hated "Phantom Menace", but I remember thinking that poster with Anakin casting Vader's shadow was kind of cool. 

I never really thought about that though. You're right, they do look like standard photoshop jobs.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Mar 28, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I remember JJ Abrams promising that there would be an LGBT character in this trilogy once...
> 
> I'm expecting a C3PO coming out party.


They gotta go human or not go at all. They will crucify him that is all that he gives to the progs.



SonOfMan said:


> Poe an finn



Fucking black Jar Jar cannot get laid, forget about a relationship...


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## Karma (Mar 28, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> Poe an finn


Would have been better considering wut they to those in the TLJ


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## Mael (Mar 28, 2019)

This shit is getting retconned right?


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## MartialHorror (Mar 28, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> They gotta go human or not go at all. They will crucify him that is all that he gives to the progs.
> 
> 
> 
> Fucking black Jar Jar cannot get laid, forget about a relationship...



You're right...

They should just make ghost Luke transgendered.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Mar 28, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> You're right...
> 
> They should just make ghost Luke transgendered.


How about we get someone IRL who is as great as Alexander from the trans community?


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## MartialHorror (Mar 28, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> How about we get someone IRL who is as great as Alexander from the trans community?



Nah, the fanbase would have a funnier reaction if they went with Ghost Luke or Lando.


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## Zef (Mar 28, 2019)

Aeternus said:


> Jannah and Zorii? Who are those?


More pointless characters for side plot.


SonOfMan said:


> Poe an finn


No 


Last thing Finn character needs is romance. Two females already took his shine the previous two films.

And Poe's character too old.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 28, 2019)

Zef said:


> More pointless characters for side plot.
> 
> No
> 
> ...



How about...

Finn hooks up with Benicio del Toro's character?


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## MartialHorror (Mar 28, 2019)

Guys... Guys... Guys...

I got it...

Ghost Luke x Ghost Snoke. 

Snoke can finally get the character development everyone wants out of him... in Luke's pants.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Mar 29, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Nah, the fanbase would have a funnier reaction if they went with Ghost Luke or Lando.


I meant someone prove me that they can lead a mass amount of man on a huge stage so it's easier for me to imagine that...



MartialHorror said:


> How about...
> 
> Finn hooks up with Benicio del Toro's character?



Finns's lack of charisma means he would just be used as a cum dumpster...


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Mar 30, 2019)

Aeternus said:


> *Jannah* and Zorii? Who are those?



Could be Lando's daughter.


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## Mob (Apr 2, 2019)

trying to get us hyped with some lame poster disney


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 10, 2019)




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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 11, 2019)

Weapons for the woke mob when the fight breaks out at the convention floor between the 2 sides of the fan civil war?


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## Mob (Apr 11, 2019)

“Guys this banner is unreal, unreal”


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 11, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Catalyst75 (Apr 12, 2019)

*Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker*

Time to change that thread title!


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## Legend (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Legend (Apr 12, 2019)

WAS THAT PALPATINE'S LAUGH?


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## blakstealth (Apr 12, 2019)

ian mcdiarmid himself straight up came up on stage and said "roll it again" in reference to the trailer with his palpatine voice hahahahhahaha

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vault (Apr 12, 2019)

Lol trash. They fucked up so now they trying to make amends. The nerds who turned on SW will eat this shit up though


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 12, 2019)

Legend said:


> WAS THAT PALPATINE'S LAUGH?





blakstealth said:


> ian mcdiarmid himself straight up came up on stage and said "roll it again" in reference to the trailer with his palpatine voice hahahahhahaha



It definitely was Palpatine, and the wreckage they're looking at just before his laugh is that of a _Death Star!_


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## Legend (Apr 12, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> It definitely was Palpatine, and the wreckage they're looking at just before his laugh is that of a _Death Star!_


When Luke said beyond did he mean beyond death? or did he mean beyond to the unknown regions?


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## Saishin (Apr 12, 2019)

Palpatine is that you?!


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 12, 2019)

Vault said:


> Lol trash. They fucked up so now they trying to make amends. The nerds who turned on SW will eat this shit up though


Lol this is the most predictable direction I pictured it going too.


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## Karma (Apr 12, 2019)

*"Rise of the Skywalker"
*
R they retconning TLJ?


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 12, 2019)

Karma said:


> *"Rise of the Skywalker"
> *
> R they retconning TLJ?



Johnson said he wouldn't mind if Abrams changed Rey's parentage, so who knows? It could also mean Kylo Ren's redemption, since he is still a Skywalker.


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## JayK (Apr 12, 2019)

Disney realised they've killed all characters people gave a shit about so they bring back Lando and Palpatine (who'm they at some point explicitely stated ain't returning in Palpatine's case).


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## Shark Skin (Apr 12, 2019)

The title

I'm going into this one with no expectations. But I will say there were some nice visuals. And that's about the nicest thing I have to say.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 12, 2019)

Vault said:


> Lol trash. They fucked up so now they trying to make amends. The nerds who turned on SW will eat this shit up though


Still not paying Disney if i can find a way...


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 12, 2019)

Hard to be excited.  All I see is damage control.


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## Vault (Apr 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Lol this is the most predictable direction I pictured it going too.



Palps
That title


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## Vault (Apr 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Hard to be excited.  All I see is damage control.



Exactly. But again people eat it up only after being bamboozled will be raging again.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2019)

> Palpatine
> /r/PrequelMemes will rise again


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 12, 2019)

Can't respect Palpatine as a final villain when the last I saw him he was thrown down a trash shoot screaming "AHHHHHHHHHH"


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2019)

"Can’t wait to see Palps tell Rey the Tragedy Of Darth Plagueis The Wise"


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

It was a good teaser, although admittedly I am a little iffy on Jedi Powers equating to being super man... I kind of groaned when it looked like she was about to light saber the TIE-fighter. Otherwise, the visuals looked impressive, it's nice to see the main trio appearing together -- my biggest complaint about both the NT and the OT is that it mostly kept all of its protagonists apart after the original film -- and the music always gets to me. 

But I dunno... Palpatine? I'll defend Disney, Lucasfilms, Kennedy and TLJ on many fronts, but if he's the main villain, that's such a transparent attempt at damage control that they might as well just come out and say: "Yeah, we f@cked up and are now going to play it SUPER, DUPER safe... expect no surprises."

Which to be honest, their "We promise a movie that will make everyone happy" is more or less coded for "No more risks". Oi, I'm tired of nostalgia. But who knows, maybe it will work. J.J Abrams has yet to make a bad movie.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




----------



## LordPerucho (Apr 12, 2019)

Im going to be surprised if Hayden appears in the movie...


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## Yagami1211 (Apr 12, 2019)

Me seeing the title :


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2019)

Rise of X is a popular title

Senate Palps tho


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 12, 2019)

LordPerucho said:


> Im going to be surprised if Hayden appears in the movie...



He is likely to appear as a Force Ghost to Kylo Ren, if he does appear, considering how much Kylo tied himself to Vader.


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## Vault (Apr 12, 2019)

Hook line and sinker


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

Not paying to see this shit again 



> Every generation needs a legend


Yeah Kylo after he kills everyone and names the first order the skywalkers


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 12, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> He is likely to appear as a Force Ghost to Kylo Ren, if he does appear, considering how much Kylo tied himself to Vader.


Ren is the last Skywalker Jedi at this point. It looked like he was fighting storm troopers in a forest


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 12, 2019)

Still think both rey and kylo are great new star wars characters. They have iconic and recognizable designs/costumes, they're good actors and they're both fun tropes.

But that tie fighter lightsaber flip looked bullshit as hell.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Apr 12, 2019)

It makes me happy to see so much joy in the fans there.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> It was a good teaser, although admittedly I am a little iffy on Jedi Powers equating to being super man... I kind of groaned when it looked like she was about to light saber the TIE-fighter. Otherwise, the visuals looked impressive, it's nice to see the main trio appearing together -- my biggest complaint about both the NT and the OT is that it mostly kept all of its protagonists apart after the original film -- and the music always gets to me.
> 
> But I dunno... Palpatine? I'll defend Disney, Lucasfilms, Kennedy and TLJ on many fronts, but if he's the main villain, that's such a transparent attempt at damage control that they might as well just come out and say: "Yeah, we f@cked up and are now going to play it SUPER, DUPER safe... expect no surprises."
> 
> Which to be honest, their "We promise a movie that will make everyone happy" is more or less coded for "No more risks". Oi, I'm tired of nostalgia. But who knows, maybe it will work. J.J Abrams has yet to make a bad movie.


Yeah I think they pretty much have to play it safe after the polarizing reception of Last Jedi which played a hand in the flopping of Solo.

Give fans the same Bullshit . They'll eat it up forever.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 12, 2019)

Speaking of music, the soundtracks for the new saga aren't memorable. No duel of fates or whatever theme played while anakin and obiwan were fighting over lava.


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## BlazingInferno (Apr 12, 2019)

Funny how you guys say fans eat up the bullshit when literally everywhere you go, nothing good is said about present day SW content.


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## Karma (Apr 12, 2019)

Still holding out hope for a Kenobi movie


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## Karma (Apr 12, 2019)

Also having Palpatine just goes to show how bad they fucked up with snoke.

Subverting expectations is a very good tactic to use in writing to keep things fresh. The only downside to it is u have to make the pay off even better. Since TLJ decided to subvert every expectation and give people nothing in return there is literally no way to go other than back to Palpatine.


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## Rukia (Apr 12, 2019)

Not getting my money.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah I think they pretty much have to play it safe after the polarizing reception of Last Jedi which played a hand in the flopping of Solo.
> 
> Give fans the same I'm Bullshit . They'll eat it up forever.



Of course, then they'll whine that it's all the same ole shit...



reiatsuflow said:


> Speaking of music, the soundtracks for the new saga aren't memorable. Literally, I can't remember anything beyond the repurposed stat wars themes. No duel of fates or whatever theme played while anakin and obiwan were fighting over lava.



Yeah, I agree. The prequels sucked, but they did have some memorable tracks. I don;'t think that was "Duel of the Fates" playing when Anakin and Obiwan fought though. If memory serves -- and I could be wrong here, it was a different, yet similar sounding theme.



BlazingInferno said:


> Funny how you guys say fans eat up the bullshit when literally everywhere you go, nothing good is said about present day SW content.



Does the footage of all the fans freaking out in joy over this trailer count? Because you did say 'literally everywhere you go'.

I don't really think it's a matter of 'fans eating up the same ole bullshit'... or any bullshit... though. I just think that "Star Wars" is a creatively stifled franchise. Either you do too much of the same and irritate people. Or you do too much differently and irritate people. I'm not even sure what they could've ever done to keep everyone happy.


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## Garcher (Apr 12, 2019)

"The saga comes to an end" 

the grand finale of the epic pile of garbage that are the sequels


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## Vault (Apr 12, 2019)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Ren is the last Skywalker Jedi at this point. It looked like he was fighting storm troopers in a forest


Looked like his knights of ren loool


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

Why no poster with the cast?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Karma (Apr 12, 2019)

The Sheev memes tho


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2019)

Palpatine and associated memes will be by far the best thing about the ST

so .. just like in the prequel trilogy


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## Karma (Apr 12, 2019)

Btw Rey being some sort of Palpatine clone would make a lot of sense


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

Maybe we'll finally get a much demanded Palpatine love scene?


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

So palps was controlling snoke? Or will Rey end up being a clone he made from lukes dna?


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## JFF (Apr 12, 2019)

Hmm... strange-ish. Its clearly going for "Return of the Jedi" in the desert and of course that was Palpatine.
Fans might just assume great things .. I kinda worrying they try to rewrite the "old" Star Wars now completely. Not like TLJ was not cruelsome enough and Johnson borrowed heavily based of the old movies in different parts. Like, take something from the original and then ridicule or rewrite it. Not mention ... storywise it seems like a total mess. Or what to make of that title (this might be very misleading) ?

So, yea the visual in the beginning was good. But frankly I do not want to see it, if it kills the franchise or what is left of it.

Well, i wait for the real trailer. Maybe still too early.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Blocky (Apr 12, 2019)

I feel like we may be overhyping this 

For all we know, Palpatine comes back as some evil force ghost or a flashback cameo.


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## Suigetsu (Apr 12, 2019)

Blocky said:


> I feel like we may be overhyping this
> 
> For all we know, Palpatine comes back as some evil force ghost or a flashback cameo.


Ofc they are over hyping it, they need the soibase back because right now liking starwars its not cool nor trending, and the old fans hate disney wars with passion. IMO the name has the stentch of "Please come back"


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## Blocky (Apr 12, 2019)

Makes me wonder why Disney even brought SW in the first place.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

I want jedi and sith type war


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## Pilaf (Apr 12, 2019)

Just when I thought there was absolutely nothing that would resurrect my interest in SW, I hear Based Daddy laughing. 

I serve the Dark Side, milord.


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## Skaddix (Apr 12, 2019)

Not terribly exciting besides the Billy Dee Scene and of course the ending laugh Emperor Reborn Arc?

I assume Rey is going to be a Skywalker now. Since I think that was JJ original plan before RJ showed up.


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## Parallax (Apr 12, 2019)

Blocky said:


> Makes me wonder why Disney even brought SW in the first place.



cash money


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> I assume Rey is going to be a Skywalker now. Since I think that was JJ original plan before RJ showed up.


Rey is a Anakin clone made by palps


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## Skaddix (Apr 12, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> Rey is a Anakin clone made by palps



Works for me after we all know Soylo is a Failure who no could be scared of.


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## MShadows (Apr 12, 2019)

Does Abrams have the balls to undo Luke’s death?


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Does Abrams have the balls to undo Luke’s death?


No but I wouldn't be surprised if Rey also downloaded lukes force powers/knowledgeable like she did kylo so she is the new luke


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 12, 2019)

Luke pretty much said in the trailer that she's the Avatar


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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

An interesting thought.

The movie seems to be undoing the "Let the past die, kill it if you have to" mindset of TLJ, but in a way, that kind of makes sense as a conclusion to a trilogy.

The 2nd is generally supposed to be the darkest of them. Even the titles of the OT sort of reflect this (Episode 5 warning that the empire is about to strike back; Episode 6 heralding the return of the Jedi), so they could undo it without necessarily treating TLJ as the unwanted step child.

From a thematic standpoint, the movie could fix a lot of the problems/controversies with its predecessor. We can now see Luke as the fans wanted to see him... albeit presumably as a force ghost... Perhaps Kylo was right about Rey's parentage from a certain standpoint, but perhaps they can expand on that and reveal 'they weren't just junkies'. Perhaps there was more to their story.

Of course, other issues can't be fixed that easily. Kylo Ren is still not a good final villain. Even the arrival of Palpatine -- if that's what they ultimately do, won't necessarily make the overarching story any better.

I liked "TLJ" and will defend it, but even I can't deny that Rian Johnson gave J.J Abrams very little to work with. It seems like he selfishly resolved too many storythreads, even if I personally liked the answers. Maybe people would've been more receptive to Luke's death and Rey's lineage if they happened in Episode 9.

Yet like J.J Abrams or not, he has a pretty solid reputation and I don't think he would've taken the job if he didn't think it would benefit his brand. I'm not expecting anything great, but it probably will be on par with TFA -- pretty good, little memorable on its own.

It was nice to see the crowd cheering like mad crazy though. It's sometimes easy to forget that the Star Wars community is not entirely comprised of angry web soldiers, whether it be fan or hater.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Luke pretty much said in the trailer that she's the Avatar


The true chosen one


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## MShadows (Apr 12, 2019)

Anakin: I am the chosen one! 
Luke: I am the son of the chosen one!

Rey: I’m more chosen than you!


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> An interesting thought.
> 
> The movie seems to be undoing the "Let the past die, kill it if you have to" mindset of TLJ, but in a way, that kind of makes sense as a conclusion to a trilogy.
> 
> ...


Nah, Kylo going out of his way to repair the mask that he smashed to pieces is lame given what the mask signifies.

And "the past dying" (the message that came with the sacrifices made for a better future)...No way can you have the exact opposite theme the next movie and it not feel like backpedaling .


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## JayK (Apr 12, 2019)

Just realised that the entire premise of Episode 1 to 6 revolving around the _chosen one_ was completely obsolet with Palpatine alive and Luke + Anakin dead in Episode 9.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 12, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Anakin: I am the chosen one!
> Luke: I am the son of the chosen one!
> 
> Rey: I’m more chosen than you!


Every generation has a chosen one


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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Nah, Kylo going out of his way to repair the mask that he smashed to pieces is lame given what the mask signifies.
> 
> And "the past dying" (the message that came with the sacrifices made for a better future)...No way can you have the exact opposite theme the next movie and it not feel like backpedaling .



It will ultimately come down to execution. "The past dying" was mostly dialogue from Kylo Ren, the bad guy with a cynical outlook. Yoda's version seemed to be more along the lines of "Don't let the past hold you back". I remember some complaining that Rey having the Jedi books near the end was a betrayal of the theme, but now they could use that as a way to bridge into something more optimistic. 

As for Kylo Ren taking on his mask once more... who knows? As he's the villain, they don't necessarily need him to be consistent with his own beliefs. 



JayK said:


> Just realised that the entire premise of Episode 1 to 6 revolving around the _chosen one_ was completely obsolet with Palpatine alive and Luke + Anakin dead in Episode 9.



Not really. Even in "Empire Strikes Back", they play with the idea of Luke being the chosen one, as Yoda seems to think that Leia could fill that role too if Luke fell... although this was written before Leia actually became Luke's sister; originally it was going to new character. 

Leia obviously can't fill that role anymore, but it shows that even in the Lucas days, 'the chosen one' wasn't quite set in stone.


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## MShadows (Apr 12, 2019)

I’m skeptical on Palpatine coming back, but think of the memes... 

Imagine if they actually reuse some of his meme lines from the Prequels on purpose. 

Kylo: The old Empire is no more! It’s time for the old to die off for good! 
Palpatine: It’s treason then...


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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I’m skeptical on Palpatine coming back, but think of the memes...
> 
> Imagine if they actually reuse some of his meme lines from the Prequels on purpose.
> 
> ...



I'm hoping someone says "That's so wizard!"

*Palpatine resurrects in a dramatic, intense and awesome fashion...*

Kylo Ren: That's so... wizard..


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 12, 2019)

I thought the skywalker was ben/kylo, not rey. He's the lineage. Rey can turn him and he can bring the killing blow to palpatine, closing the chosen one business. 

Problem is I'm not sure where that leaves rey. I doubt they'll close out the 2019 star wars heroine by having her support the good guy into defeating the bad guy. That doesn't seem very woke.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> I thought the skywalker was ben/kylo, not rey. He's the lineage. Rey can turn him and he can bring the killing blow to palpatine, closing the chosen one business.
> 
> Problem is I'm not sure where that leaves rey. I doubt they'll close out the 2019 star wars heroine by having her support the good guy into defeating the bad guy. That doesn't seem very woke.



I just don't see how 'The Rise' can be attributed to him. Even if he turns, he's still done a lot of damage to the galaxy and would have to punished for his crimes. Also, doesn't he go by "Solo" technically?

Admittedly, I don't like the idea of Rey being a skywalker either...

People took a shit on their keyboards to express their displeasure at Luke being a morally flawed person... would abandoning his daughter long before the shit hit the fan for him make him any more sympathetic? If she's Leia's daughter, which... holy shit, is accidental i*c*st part of their bloodline?... why  would her parents abandon her and raise Ben... and still retain our sympathy?

I suspect the title is more thematic in some way, kind of like "The Last Jedi". Or maybe Luke just decides to spank that Empire booty as a ghost.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2019)

Rey and Kylo 2 vs 1 defeat Palps and then kiss


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Every generation has a chosen one


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

The new "jedi" order could be change to "skywalkers" in honor of luke and finally killing the past (the term jedi)


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 12, 2019)

In b4 Finn is the actual Skywalker and he becomes  the Jedi while Rey gives in to her lust of Kylo and both become villains.

Then Finn whips their asses


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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> The new "jedi" order could be change to "skywalkers" in honor of luke and finally killing the past (the term jedi)



That's true. 

Although admittedly, Jedi sounds a lot cooler and more marketable... which you know is the bottom line.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

Dean Ambrose said:


> In b4 Finn is the actual Skywalker and he becomes  the Jedi while Rey gives in to her lust of Kylo and both become villains.
> 
> Then Finn whips their asses



Holy shit that sounds amazing!

That would also make up for the deceptive marketing of TFA promoting Finn as the lead.


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Holy shit that sounds amazing!
> 
> That would also make up for the deceptive marketing of TFA promoting Finn as the lead.



Finn with the lightsaber was my fave part of TFA


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2019)

RoS - Revenge of (the) Sith
RoS - Rise of Skywalker

RoS - Rise of Sheev 
RoS - Return of (the) Senate


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 12, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> RoS - Revenge of (the) Sith
> RoS - Rise of Skywalker
> 
> RoS - Rise/Return of (the) Senate


ROJ-  Return of Jar Jar


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> That's true.
> 
> Although admittedly, Jedi sounds a lot cooler and more marketable... which you know is the bottom line.


I know
I wish the term sith was still used


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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

What happens if it's revealed that... Rey's the granddaughter of Palpatine?


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> What happens if it's revealed that... Rey's the granddaughter of Palpatine?



For a moment I thought you said grandmother


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## Atlas (Apr 12, 2019)

Great, now we have to watch the holy Senate get his character tarnished. He getting solo'd by Rey.


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 12, 2019)

Atlas said:


> Great, now we have to watch the holy Senate get his character tarnished. He getting solo'd by Rey.


Don't worry I'll just go incognito and change the script to what I said before 



Dean Ambrose said:


> In b4 Finn is the actual Skywalker and he becomes  the Jedi while Rey gives in to her lust of Kylo and both become villains.
> 
> Then Finn whips their asses

Reactions: Like 2


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 12, 2019)

First, that title is the most retarded yet.

Second, shit in the trailer looks as boring and dull as ever with not a single memorable looking planet to see as is usual with the ST.

Third, Sidious coming back is nothing less than pathetic damage control to bring in nostalgic fans like they have always done and it is so clearly forced in due to TLJ fucking up their main villain that it makes it even more pathetic how morons will unironically go "muh prequel memes" as if this dude is really going not do anything but have a glorified cameo and nothing else.

Fourth, again nothing but regurgitated OT music shoved in to "tug the heartstrings" when they have been so overused it's just elevator music at this point in terms of gettign a reaction.

And fifth, I still have no reason to give a shit about any of these characters due to them lacking in almost any development or having any interesting character traits or hell, even chemistry with another because most of them have not even properly interacted with one another with some never even meeting until the very end of the second film which gives me even less reason to care.

So all in all, hard pass.


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## Atlas (Apr 12, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> First, that title is the most retarded yet.
> 
> Second, shit in the trailer looks as boring and dull as ever with not a single memorable looking planet to see as is usual with the ST.
> 
> ...



Doing the same I did with TLJ, wait and see if it's worth my time. Probably won't be.


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## The Big G (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Suigetsu (Apr 12, 2019)

Blocky said:


> Makes me wonder why Disney even brought SW in the first place.


They where growing too fast and got arrogant.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

Watch it end up being a black zetsu situation where plaguis is was influencing palp into doing his own desires


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 12, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> Watch it end up being a black zetsu situation where plaguis is was influencing palp into doing his own desires


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Apr 12, 2019)

Rey is Darth Plagueis.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 12, 2019)

So....What was the point of Snoke again?


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> So....What was the point of Snoke again?


Palp puppet


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> So....What was the point of Snoke again?


To be a shitty rehashed Palp clone until Rian screwed that up and now they have to bring back the real Palp just to recover.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 12, 2019)

And still a shitty character in the end. They can't even hide it since you never even see her in the trailer.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)

They were chanting the actress' name, not the character she plays.


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## Skaddix (Apr 12, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> And still a shitty character in the end. They can't even hide it since you never even see her in the trailer.



Indeed Indeed. Also JJ didn't introduce her so its like he is under not much obligation to use her lol.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 12, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> They were chanting the actress' name, not the character she plays.


And like I said, still a shitty character.


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## Skaddix (Apr 12, 2019)

I mean shit KMT probably doesn't even clear Top 5 in abuse from Star Wars fans.

Ahmed Best, Jake Lloyd, Hayden Christensen...Even George Lucas all got more hate. I say John Boyega also had to deal with more shit. 

KMT is lucky her characters will be forgotten. Not that she deserved it not her fault RJ fucking sucks.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

Where was adam driver?


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## Skaddix (Apr 12, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> Where was adam driver?



KKK thinks the Sun comes out of his ass
So Adam barely has to do press cause in KKKs mind he is movie star. 

Fucking Hell Ford did more Press in Force Awakens then Crylo's Actor.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 12, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> KKK thinks the Sun comes out of his ass
> So Adam barely has to do press cause in KKKs mind he is movie star.
> 
> Fucking Hell Ford did more Press in Force Awakens then Crylo's Actor.


Yeah I've seen people who have interviewed him for SW stuff say he's very distanced from it all.


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## Skaddix (Apr 12, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> Yeah I've seen people who have interviewed him for SW stuff say he's very distanced from it all.



Its not even that how the fuck is Adam Driver allowed to do less Press then fucking Harrison Ford.

Driver has what one Oscar Nom. Hasn't really carried a Franchise so its not like he is a Box Office Draw. And Yet he gets special treatment cause he makes KKK Wet.

Adam Driver does less the bear minimum. And I don't wanna hear he is Anti Social and an Introvert. He is a fucking actor making millions, he can fake it for a few hours.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 12, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Its not even that how the fuck is Adam Driver allowed to do less Press then fucking Harrison Ford.
> 
> Driver has what one Oscar Nom. Hasn't really carried a Franchise so its not like he is a Box Office Draw. And Yet he gets special treatment cause he makes KKK Wet.
> 
> Adam Driver does less the bear minimum. And I don't wanna hear he is Anti Social and an Introvert. He is a fucking actor making millions, he can fake it for a few hours.



If it'll make you happy, he'll probably do another SNL skit.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Its not even that how the fuck is Adam Driver allowed to do less Press then fucking Harrison Ford.
> 
> Driver has what one Oscar Nom. Hasn't really carried a Franchise so its not like he is a Box Office Draw. And Yet he gets special treatment cause he makes KKK Wet.
> 
> Adam Driver does less the bear minimum. And I don't wanna hear he is Anti Social and an Introvert. He is a fucking actor making millions, he can fake it for a few hours.



To be fair, he does seem to involved in quite a few acclaimed movies and has the attention of directors like Martin Scorsese, Spike Lee and Steven Soderbergh, so they might just think his talent is worth it. Some actors are notorious for being unreliable with press releases, like Edward Norton.

I haven't seen him do much promoting period, so it's probably not just Kennedy. Although now I have planted the images of Driver making those older men "wet".

But I don't pay too much attention to press tours and all that, as I find most interviews to be awkward and stupid. I saw one of the "Avengers Endgame" cast and the interviewer asks "Will the movie live up to the hype?". Cue awkward silence, because it's a pointless question. Jeremy Renner eventually gives a terse "Yes". Thank you for that wonderful insight. I wasn't sure if I was going to see the movie, but now I am...

But I digress. 

On another note, how come Daisy Ridley hasn't done more movies? I've only seen her in "Murder on the Orient Express". Even John Boyega has done some stuff that garnered attention... even if that attention is of the "Pacific Rim 2" variety.


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## Palm Siberia (Apr 12, 2019)

I know it would be unfair to compare MCU to Star Wars, but right now even DC has a better cinematic plan to their films than Star Wars. Just by looking at the trailer and reading the current plot details, the writing is clearly on the wall about Rian's plans being shit on by this movie. Kylo suddenly has a new helmet, the Emperor is back in some fashion, and that lightsaber that was broken is back. Classic rewriting in my eyes.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 12, 2019)

Palm Siberia said:


> I know it would be unfair to compare MCU to Star Wars, but right now even DC has a better cinematic plan to their films than Star Wars. Just by looking at the trailer and reading the current plot details, the writing is clearly on the wall about Rian's plans being shit on by this movie. Kylo suddenly has a new helmet, the Emperor is back in some fashion, and that lightsaber that was broken is back. Classic rewriting in my eyes.



Yeah I agree.

I actually liked "TLJ", but it's become too apparent that this trilogy wasn't planned in advance... although at least there's been no accidental i*c*st... yet.

EDIT: NOOOO! THEY'RE CENSORING ME!!! HOW DO I FIX THIS!?


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## Karma (Apr 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> But I don't pay too much attention to press tours and all that, as I find most interviews to be awkward and stupid. I saw one of the "Avengers Endgame" cast and the interviewer asks "Will the movie live up to the hype?". Cue awkward silence, because it's a pointless question. Jeremy Renner eventually gives a terse "Yes". Thank you for that wonderful insight. I wasn't sure if I was going to see the movie, but now I am...


Did u watch the interview where they asked Paul Rudd the quintessential Ant-Man Vs Thanos question? Kappa


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## MShadows (Apr 12, 2019)




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## Karma (Apr 12, 2019)

Perfection tbh


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## MShadows (Apr 12, 2019)

Karma said:


> Perfection tbh


I could watch this all day


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## Zef (Apr 13, 2019)

>my face when Mouse has to bring back Palps because Rian Johnson couldn't decide if he wanted Kylo to be a villain, and killed Snoke & Phasma before the final film.



RJ really fucked Disney in the ass with his shit writing in TLJ.


In the end this trilogy was unable to stand on its own without the old cast. Lando and Meme Emporer of Evil need to be brought back to put butts in theatre seats.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

Karma said:


> Did u watch the interview where they asked Paul Rudd the quintessential Ant-Man Vs Thanos question? Kappa



Was that Jimmy Kimmel? 

If so, then yes, lol.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 13, 2019)

Ian's reaction to when he is only giving a small cameo role and yet is the biggest reason anyone actually wants to watch this shit


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## Shark Skin (Apr 13, 2019)

As a concept I was ok with what Rian was going for in TLJ. The way he put it together and executed it was piss poor though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skaddix (Apr 13, 2019)

I mean we need a credible threat...has little to do with being good or bad.

Crylo and Sux are no Vader and Tarkin that is for fucking sure. 

Though on the flip side watching Palps job to Rey will probably piss me off.


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## Skaddix (Apr 13, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Ian's reaction to when he is only giving a small cameo role and yet is the biggest reason anyone actually wants to watch this shit



I mean shit the only exciting moments were Lando and Palps Voiceover lol. 

I guess the crashed Death Star was interesting but that was only especially interesting once Palps had his voiceover.


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## MShadows (Apr 13, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Ian's reaction to when he is only giving a small cameo role and yet is the biggest reason anyone actually wants to watch this shit


Disney: We need you to help us save what is left of this burning shipwreck!!

McDiarmid:


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## Suigetsu (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah I agree.
> 
> I actually liked "TLJ", but ?


Nah, you got terrible ass taste, hence your opinion is invalid and null. Hence why you are washed up.

He is looking right at that giant jucy check, thats what it is. 



MShadows said:


> I could watch this all day


I like when he jumps spinning at his target! Freaking ROTS was GOAT even with its poor execution. 



Palm Siberia said:


> I know it would be unfair to compare MCU to Star Wars, but right now even DC has a better cinematic plan to their films than Star Wars. Just by looking at the trailer and reading the current plot details, the writing is clearly on the wall about Rian's plans being shit on by this movie. Kylo suddenly has a new helmet, the Emperor is back in some fashion, and that lightsaber that was broken is back. Classic rewriting in my eyes.


This "triolgy" let alone spinoffs take place in disney verse only because they have more retcons than you can count and are not even by the main author. The point is that they tought they didnt had to do much and that things would continue to work as usual. It blew up in the feminazi parade as you can see.

People are still goin to boycott this, hence why they are desperate to lure the audience with "Muh nostalgia" which you can smell the stench of it all over the trailer.


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## Skaddix (Apr 13, 2019)

My issue is this...okay fine Disney wants a movie quickly and doesnt want to wait for a script.

Its like okay you don't want to use George Lucas Notes.

Then why not modify your massive amount of fucking EU Material. Plenty of Books and Comic Material you could have fucking cribbed. I say Video Game but that is not especially relevant to a Sequel.

Like Jesus Christ, how do you have no fucking plan when you know your doing a fucking trilogy.


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## Zef (Apr 13, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I could watch this all day


This dudes facial reactions had my sides in orbit.


People hate on episode 3 but there's at least comedic value regardless of its quality.



Shark Skin said:


> As a concept I was ok with what Rian was going for in TLJ.


What _was_ he going for?

Because I personally don't see how he could have moved the story forwards with how he completely ignored, or "subverted" everything set up in Force Awakens.

The Rise of Skywalker in episode 9 title better not be reffering to Rey after RJ basically wrote her off as a nobody.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> I mean we need a credible threat...has little to do with being good or bad.
> 
> Crylo and Sux are no Vader and Tarkin that is for fucking sure.
> 
> Though on the flip side watching Palps job to Rey will probably piss me off.



What if...

It turns out that both Palpatine and Snoke were merely puppets used by a true Sith Master... named Mickey... who takes over and brands the empire as Disney. They then defeat the Resistance with cease and desist letters.




Soygetsu said:


> Nah, you got terrible ass taste, hence your opinion is invalid and null. Hence why you are washed up.



I missed my little Soygetsu.


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## Suigetsu (Apr 13, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Disney: We need you to help us save what is left of this burning shipwreck!!
> 
> McDiarmid:




Mc Diarmid: I want more 0's in that check than the fingers on all my hand & feet.


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## Zef (Apr 13, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Like Jesus Christ, how do you have no fucking plan when you know your doing a fucking trilogy.


The problem is Kathleen Kennedy. They put her in charge of NuWars and clearly she isn't competent at her job.

Disney has had perfect planning with MCU. Whoever they got running their capeshit they need to put on NuWars and get rid of KK.

Not that it matters, I doubt Disney or the fans want more Star Wars after this mediocre trilogy.

But then again Disney likes money so who knows.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 13, 2019)

I think rian still has his trilogy


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

If they fired Kathleen Kennedy, I wonder what her severance package would be like.

I hear Les Moonves was entitled to like $250,000,000 when he was fired after the sexual misconduct allegations came out against him. I'd assume she wouldn't get that much, but she'd probably get a lot.

lol, only rich people could profit more than most of us will ever make in our lifetimes from losing their jobs. 




SonOfMan said:


> I think rian still has his trilogy



Actually, what is going on with that?


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## Skaddix (Apr 13, 2019)

The fix is obvious.

The damage cannot be easily undone. 

This type of fuckery requires a full reboot.

Which Disney probably isn't allowed to do while George Lucas lives. 

Who knows maybe do something closer to George's Original ideas lol.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Actually, what is going on with that?


He said he's still writing it


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 13, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> I think rian still has his trilogy


As if that is actually going to happen with how hard Disney backed off from the spin offs alone. Most likely he will be "on" only until they finally decide to announce it is cancelled once ep 9 is over an out than they will make up an excuse like "creative decisions" prevented the project from happening when the reality is that there was never a project to begin with.


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## Suigetsu (Apr 13, 2019)

Zef said:


> The problem is Kathleen Kennedy. They put her in charge of NuWars and clearly she isn't competent at her job.
> 
> Disney has had perfect planning with MCU. Whoever they got running their capeshit they need to put on NuWars and get rid of KK.
> 
> ...


Its not just KK but her whole coven of feminazi shits who had no experience nor idea of what they are doing and are just there to collect the check by disney. Hence why puddle faced kiri hart got fired without anyone noticing.

SW its over, finito, it ended when George Sold it.
 There are other soi cucks that whine about the prequels but at the very least those worked, sadly they where executed quite poorly but even to this day ep 1 and 3 are comfy AF.


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## MShadows (Apr 13, 2019)

The only Star Wars movie I'd ever want to see in the future is an Obi-Wan solo movie. Bun only and only if they cast Ewan McGregor again.

Get over with these shitty sequels and just let the franchise rest in pieces.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 13, 2019)

Zef said:


> Disney has had perfect planning with MCU. *Whoever* they got running their capeshit


> not knowing the God Feige by name


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## Skaddix (Apr 13, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> > not knowing the God Feige by name



Indeed Death Should Be his Punishment


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 13, 2019)

SITH DADDY


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## Mob (Apr 13, 2019)

You can't polish a turd, but you can sprinkle it with glitter or in this case Palpatine


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

Looks cringeworthy.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

*All-time worldwide gross*

3. Star Wars: The Force Awakens ($2,068.2)
4. Avengers: Infinity War ($2,048.4) 
6. Marvel's The Avengers ($1,518.8) 
8. Avengers: Age of Ultron ($1,405.4)
11. Star Wars: The Last Jedi ($1,332.5)


---

Here's to hoping_ Avengers: Endgame_ blows_ Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker_ out of the stars.


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## ~VK~ (Apr 13, 2019)

"the rise of skywalker" bruhh  

yo JJ abrams really about to retcon the shit outta TLJ like everyone predicted 

the writing really was on the wall tho. even palps coming back wouldn't be that surprising. i mean who else was supposed to be the final villain? were we supposed to look forward to kylo not being able to best rey for a third time in a row? cmon


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## ~VK~ (Apr 13, 2019)

i really didn't want lando to return. they about to fuck my nigguh up 

better to imagine him off somewhere living his best life ruling a city then seeing whatever they've got planned for him


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

I doubt they'd kill Lando off, because once again, Abrams and Kennedy are more-or-less pitching this as a safe Star Wars. If anything, I'm more worried they'll find a way to resurrect Han and Luke, lol.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 13, 2019)

force ghosts of Luke and Yoda just pop up and fry Palps new body with some good ol lightning, like Yoda did that tree in TLJ


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 13, 2019)




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## Santoryu (Apr 13, 2019)

you know it's going to be boring if kylo ren's in it


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 13, 2019)

We're at the end of a new trilogy and they're still using callbacks to get people excited.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> We're at the end of a new trilogy and they're still using callbacks to get people excited.



I don't remember who said it, but "when you rely on nostalgia you're making the [fictional] universe smaller, not bigger."

Like, forget about there always being two Sith. On the big screen there's only ever 1.5 Sith, since Palestine is always one of the two.


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## Pilaf (Apr 13, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> i really didn't want lando to return. they about to fuck my nigguh up
> 
> better to imagine him off somewhere living his best life ruling a city then seeing whatever they've got planned for him




Don't doubt. Papa Lando got that shine. He's gonna dickslap the First Order across the horizon. Last man standing.


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## Kuromaku (Apr 13, 2019)

It's amazing how, after the lowered expectations that came with following the prequels, Disney still managed to screw up its handling of the franchise. Five years ago, I never would have expected not to care about the next movie or even fail to realize the new teaser was out until someone else notified me.

At least the Rule of Sheev might be in play. Appearance in _Empire_ aside, Palpatine is always in the weaker entries of the franchise, yet always manages to be one of the better parts of the movies.


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## Pilaf (Apr 13, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Does Abrams have the balls to undo Luke’s death?




He doesn't have to. He'll be like a Ben Kenobi force ghost. 

I also think Palpatine might be an ally rather than a new enemy. I think they'll embrace the whole "bring balance to the Force" thing and have Rey train under him some, too.


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## Pilaf (Apr 13, 2019)

Also Hayden is gonna be in this. Skywalker could refer to the Chosen One and not Rey.


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## Yagami1211 (Apr 13, 2019)

I really don't understand the title.

Can't be the rise of Kylo, after the shit he pulled.

Can't be Rey, she's not a Skywalker. At least as far as we know.

And the laugh at the end is more like blatant fanservice than anything else.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

Kind of annoyed by everything having to be of cosmic importance too.

I used to think that Palpatine was just the most recent in a long, long, long... line of Sith masters spanning over 1000 years. Who could easily be replaced by Snoke when the throne opened up. 

But now it seems like they're making him the Dark Side incarnate, who's been behind everything past, present, and future. He's not Space Hitler anymore, he's Space Satan.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Kind of annoyed by everything having to be of cosmic importance too.
> 
> I used to think that Palpatine was just the most recent in a long, long, long... line of Sith masters spanning over 1000 years. Who could easily be replaced by Snoke when the throne opened up.
> 
> But now it seems like they're making him the Dark Side incarnate, who's been behind everything past, present, and future. He's not Space Hitler anymore, he's Space Satan.


He returned and kicked the bucket again in the EU.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> He returned and kicked the bucket again in the EU.



I know, but the EU isn't canon anymore and Disney doesn't have to repeat its tropes.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 13, 2019)

I think papls will just be a holocron


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 13, 2019)

man I'm in Chicago and I didn't hear about Star Wars Celebration 


Guess I should go rob them or something


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I know, but the EU isn't canon anymore and Disney doesn't have to repeat its tropes.


No, they will do way worse.


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I know, but the EU isn't canon anymore and Disney doesn't have to repeat its tropes.



Lmao


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 13, 2019)




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## James Bond (Apr 13, 2019)

Palpatine was thrown down a big hole right but we know Darth Maul was not only cut in half but also thrown down a big hole... now the latter reappeared in the cartoon series with robotic spider legs so will we see Palpatine running about in robotic spider legs?


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## Mider T (Apr 13, 2019)

Wait why is everyone talking about Palpatine?


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 13, 2019)

Darth maul showing up again in that khaleesi star wars has got to be the biggest mainstream wtf moment in recent memory, especially because it's probably not getting a sequel. I know audiences are savvy nowadays, but star wars lore from books and tv shows hasn't been picked up as much as marvel stuff. Even the big star wars fans I know were confused by that. A lot of people aren't aware of the show.


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## Mider T (Apr 13, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Darth maul showing up again in that khaleesi star wars has got to be the biggest mainstream wtf moment in recent memory, especially because it's probably not getting a sequel. I know audiences are savvy nowadays, but star wars lore from books and tv shows hasn't been picked up as much as marvel stuff. Even the big star wars fans I know were confused by that. A lot of people aren't aware of the show.


Big Star Wars fans weren't confused at all.  The show was very well known.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 13, 2019)

James Bond said:


> Palpatine was thrown down a big hole right but we know Darth Maul was not only cut in half but also thrown down a big hole... now the latter reappeared in the cartoon series with robotic spider legs so will we see Palpatine running about in robotic spider legs?


Except Palpatine was thrown down the Death Star's reactor that exploded which should have destroyed his body entirely.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Wait why is everyone talking about Palpatine?



That was clearly Palpatine's laugh at the end of the trailer.


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## James Bond (Apr 13, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Except Palpatine was thrown down the Death Star's reactor that exploded which should have destroyed his body entirely.


Don't ruin this for me


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 13, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> I really don't understand the title.



One theory I saw today has to do with the naming theme of the third episode in each Trilogy.

The Prequel Trilogy ended with "Revenge of the Sith".

The Original Trilogy ended with "Return of the Jedi".

Now the final episode of the Sequel Trilogy is "The Rise of Skywalker".

In "Thrawn: Alliances", it was mentioned that Chiss Force-wielders, when using their power to navigate the Unknown Regions, are called "Skywalkers". It is entirely possible that "The Rise of Skywalker" means the rise in a new order of Force Wielders that go by the title "Skywalker".


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Apr 13, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Apr 13, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> One theory I saw today has to do with the naming theme of the third episode in each Trilogy.
> 
> The Prequel Trilogy ended with "Revenge of the Sith".
> 
> ...


I was right


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 13, 2019)

Making "skywalker" the new name to replace Jedi is the most retarded fucking fan theory I have seen yet.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 13, 2019)

We're  all skywalkers


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 13, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Making "skywalker" the new name to replace Jedi is the most retarded fucking fan theory I have seen yet.



I bet that's what's going to happen though


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 13, 2019)




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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 13, 2019)

At least they created okay droids for the trilogy...


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 13, 2019)




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## Jake CENA (Apr 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> That was clearly Palpatine's laugh at the end of the trailer.



HAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA WHAT IF ITS LUKE SKYWALKER’S THOUGH? 

Anyway this movie gonna be another piece of shit like The Force Awakens. 

Rey and Space Janitor were a huge mistake!


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA WHAT IF ITS LUKE SKYWALKER’S THOUGH?



That was my pitch for The Last Jedi. 

* Kylo or Snoke kills Leia.
* Luke snaps and turns to the Dark Side.
* Episode IX is about turning Luke back.

Unfortunately Johnson subverted my expectations.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 13, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Big Star Wars fans weren't confused at all.  The show was very well known.



My entire theater was like... "huh?"

I've never heard so much confusion in a single room.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

So do you figure Palpatine has been alive the whole time, or was he dead and then came back to life after Snoke kicked it?

On a cosmic level maybe the Dark Side needs there to be a second Sith besides Kylo, and on a micro level maybe Kylo goes to Endor and exhumes him in order to get some instruction that Snoke didn't have time to give him?

In the EU, didn't the cave on Dagobah become haunted because some Dark Side badass died in there? Maybe Palpatine is kind of haunting the Death Star wreckage, even if his body was clearly incinerated.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> So do you figure Palpatine has been alive the whole time, or was he dead and then came back to life after Snoke kicked it?
> 
> On a cosmic level maybe the Dark Side needs there to be a second Sith besides Kylo, and on a micro level maybe Kylo goes to Endor and exhumes him in order to get some instruction that Snoke didn't have time to give him?
> 
> In the EU, didn't the cave on Dagobah become haunted because some Dark Side badass died in there? Maybe Palpatine is kind of haunting the Death Star wreckage, even if his body was clearly incinerated.



I've heard that in the EU, he sometimes returns through the force or some shit like that, although I don't like the idea of Sith force ghosts.


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## Pilaf (Apr 13, 2019)

People still confused how Palpy coming back when he told us the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise in 2005 smh


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I've heard that in the EU, he sometimes returns through the force or some shit like that, although I don't like the idea of Sith force ghosts.



In the famous comic book Dark Empire (1991-1995) he's basically Orochimaru. He can transfer his consciousness into a new body, usually a clone of his old one.

I don't think they're gonna go that route because Disney is AFAIK staying well clear of direct adaptations of the defunct EU. Fans are never getting that page-by-page Thrawn Trilogy adaptation they like dreaming about, sorry.


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> In the famous comic book Dark Empire (1991-1995) he's basically Orochimaru. He can transfer his consciousness into a new body, usually a clone of his old one.
> 
> I don't think they're gonna go that route because Disney is AFAIK staying well clear of direct adaptations of the defunct EU. Fans are never getting that page-by-page Thrawn Trilogy adaptation they like dreaming about, sorry.



It was rather unlikely we'd get a rehash of the Thrawn Trilogy due to his appearance in "Rebels", and Zahn is currently working on the third book for the new Thrawn Trilogy, _Thrawn: Treason_. We already know how the story went in the old continuity; the new continuity is already providing new opportunities for Thrawn's character.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> People still confused how Palpy coming back when he told us the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise in 2005 smh



Well, on the one hand he says Plagueis "taught his apprentice [Palpatine] everything he knew" , but on the other hand he claims to Anakin that cheating death "is a power that only one has attained".

So it's ambiguous whether Palpatine himself has this power or not, and to what extent.

He definitely seems very old, so he can probably extend his lifespan beyond that of a normal human. But can he get the midi-cloreans to build him an entirely new body from scratch after the old one has been torn apart at probably the atomic level?

I wish we'd have gotten more into what Plagueis' powers actually looked like. Since his ability to reanimate his loved ones is a Dark Side power I'd expect some Full Metal Alchemist stuff. Like maybe they come back as soulless zombies?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 13, 2019)




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## Jake CENA (Apr 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> That was my pitch for The Last Jedi.
> 
> * Kylo or Snoke kills Leia.
> * Luke snaps and turns to the Dark Side.
> ...



I have a better idea. Rey and Kylo commit suicide to end force users and Sith and let the robots take over


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Wait why is everyone talking about Palpatine?



Because he was laughing at the end of the trailer. Not that its surprising, we know Hayden was brought in for some specific call back or flash back and possibly Force Ghost scenes for IX, Hamill is confirmed to be Luke again so he'll have some role in the movie, and we just don't know what capacity they'll use Palpatine. The original concept work and art as well as early drafts for VII involved one of the early heroes or characters diving into water and swimming in the sea flooded remnant fragments of the second Death Star, which includes a drawn scene of Palpatine's throne room.

It might be Rey having force visions of the Emperor's left over dark side energy and will. It might be the Emperor possessing Kylo, it might be the Emperor even returning or just having something invoking his presence again.

Either way it ultimately shows how much damage TLJ did with Snoke that they need to reprise in some capacity the original big bad in the PT and OT to add a layer to this movie that it lacks.


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2019)

Also I will add "Rise of the Skywalker" is by far an even more insultingly bad subtitle for a Star Wars movie since The Force Awakens. Connotations of deeper meaning in which TFA shitted on everything before it, the entire theory that Skywalker would replace "Jedi" for Force-users of the light side is just dumb enough to be something JJ Abrams and Disney would sign off on.

I'm not excited for this.

Not even with knowing they'll have Ian back as Palpatine in one form or another and Hayden returning as Anakin.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> In the famous comic book Dark Empire (1991-1995) he's basically Orochimaru. He can transfer his consciousness into a new body, usually a clone of his old one.
> 
> I don't think they're gonna go that route because Disney is AFAIK staying well clear of direct adaptations of the defunct EU. Fans are never getting that page-by-page Thrawn Trilogy adaptation they like dreaming about, sorry.



Eh, they can always draw inspiration from the EU without making it canon.

If Palpatine is back, I would assume the Knights of Ren have something to do with it, as Kylo Ren is shown fighting what appears to be a Knight in the teaser. Palpatine's return would be contrary to his goals, so it might be a 'good and bad unite to fight evil' scenario. 



Pilaf said:


> People still confused how Palpy coming back when he told us the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise in 2005 smh



Does Disney even want to acknowledge the prequels though? They're just as divisive -- if not moreso -- than the current movies and they want to bring audiences back in.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

Fang said:


> Also I will add "Rise of the Skywalker" is by far an even more insultingly bad subtitle for a Star Wars movie since The Force Awakens. Connotations of deeper meaning in which TFA shitted on everything before it, the entire theory that Skywalker would replace "Jedi" for Force-users of the light side is just dumb enough to be something JJ Abrams and Disney would sign off on.
> 
> I'm not excited for this.
> 
> Not even with knowing they'll have Ian back as Palpatine in one form or another and Hayden returning as Anakin.



Yeah, none of the titles for the new films - including the spin-offs... especially the spin-offs - have been all that great. Even the prequels have pretty catchy titles, even if "Attack of the Clones" was kind of misleading.


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## Pilaf (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Does Disney even want to acknowledge the prequels though? They're just as divisive -- if not moreso -- than the current movies and they want to bring audiences back in.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

I stand corrected.


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Does Disney even want to acknowledge the prequels though?



They already have multiple times in Rogue One and The Last Jedi. You have Luke talking about Darth Sidious, Palpatine's Sith moniker, and multiple times they used in TFA and TLJ the Sith theme for Snoke from the Prequels. This isn't even getting into the constant callbacks, references, and recycling of characters, concepts, locations, and books/comics as well as games from the Clone Wars in Star Wars: Rebels (Kalani, the Droid commander, squads of B1 and B2 Super Battledroids, using old Clone Troopers like Rex in the final seasons with his brothers, plus Ashoka grown up) and the revival of The Clone Wars: with its 7th season.



> They're just as divisive -- if not moreso





> -- than the current movies and they want to bring audiences back in.



They aren't "more divisive" then the Sequels. In fact they are less.  In fact, Disney is hemorrhaging money into Battlefront 2 EA with Dice and EA by constantly expanding the game with DLC and expansions from the Clone Wars since the gigantic fuck up with BF2 EA's launch and loot box fiasco: players overwhelmingly don't even want to play on Sequel era maps like Crait or Starkiller Map and want entire game rotations in Galactic Assault, Team Deathmatch (Blast), and Heroes vs Villains on Kamino, Genosis, Kashyyk, the addition of Clone Wars Obi-Wan, General Grievous, Count Dooku, and Anakin as new heroes to the game is what saved Battlefront 2 EA from being a gigantic failure.

Their business model is very clearly trying to pander to PT/Clone Wars fans because they realized now that trying to ostracize that was a bad idea. Especially with even their mobile phone games constantly using EU and PT characters.

its pretty bad when the narrative tries to assert the PT are despised yet the consumers overwhelmingly prefer that to the current new generation of Star Wars material. The newest heroes also as well as the new Infiltrator class (ARC Troopers and BX- Command Droids) are PT era and we're getting Ventress and Ashoka in the next expansion of the game for season 5 or 6.

I feel pretty confident in saying this idea the PT is hated the most is beyond wrong.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, none of the titles for the new films - including the spin-offs... especially the spin-offs - have been all that great. Even the prequels have pretty catchy titles, even if "Attack of the Clones" was kind of misleading.



I think the titles of the Lucas-directed films were made intentionally cheesy-sounding, because Star Wars started out as a homage to 1940's science fiction.

Aren't there a lot of pulp "Attack of the [Noun]"?


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I think the titles of the Lucas-directed films were made intentionally cheesy-sounding, because Star Wars started out as a homage to 1940's science fiction.
> 
> Aren't there a lot of pulp "Attack of the [Noun]"?



Lucas' biggest influence was Flash Gordon, and Kurosawa movies. The whole subtitle naming convention just stems from that being thematically rooted in general 70s and 80s conventions. Remember, ANH wasn't even "Episode IV" at release originally, it was just "Star Wars: A New Hope". 

That said people WERE pissed Episode II wasn't titled "The Clone Wars" and we got Attack of the Clones instead.


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## Mider T (Apr 13, 2019)

Fang said:


> Also I will add "Rise of the Skywalker" is by far an even more insultingly bad subtitle for a Star Wars movie since The Force Awakens. Connotations of deeper meaning in which TFA shitted on everything before it, the entire theory that Skywalker would replace "Jedi" for Force-users of the light side is just dumb enough to be something JJ Abrams and Disney would sign off on.
> 
> I'm not excited for this.
> 
> Not even with knowing they'll have Ian back as Palpatine in one form or another and Hayden returning as Anakin.


You haven't been excited for anything Star Wars since Disney took over


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

Fang said:


> ANH wasn't even "Episode IV" at release originally, it was just "Star Wars: A New Hope".



Pretty sure it was just "Star Wars" with no subtitle, since they didn't know if there would be sequels.

Original 1977 poster:


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## Pilaf (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I stand corrected.




Yeah and when you think about it, in recent years the Prequels have gained new respect and appreciation. You see Prequel memes everywhere. There's a whole prequel apologetics movement on YouTube. People have grown to legitimately appreciate them, especially in the wake of TLJ. It wasn't always so. The prequel hate peaked about a decade ago with the Plinkett reviews but has since waned. It's a good nostalgia trip currently to bring them up, especially Palpatine who was the high point.


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2019)

Mider T said:


> You haven't been excited for anything Star Wars since Disney took over



I'm excited for the Clone Wars final season.



mr_shadow said:


> Pretty sure it was just "Star Wars" with no subtitle, since they didn't know if there would be sequels.
> 
> Original 1977 poster:



Yeah I was going off old memory, it was either Star Wars or Star Wars A New Hope, no episode there in the original release.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

I still can't get over how "Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas" and "Darth Sidious" weren't the same person, when their names are basically alternate spellings of each other.

Then again, it'd have been the worst codename since "Jessica Jones".


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

Fang said:


> They already have multiple times in Rogue One and The Last Jedi. You have Luke talking about Darth Sidious, Palpatine's Sith moniker, and multiple times they used in TFA and TLJ the Sith theme for Snoke from the Prequels. This isn't even getting into the constant callbacks, references, and recycling of characters, concepts, locations, and books/comics as well as games from the Clone Wars in Star Wars: Rebels (Kalani, the Droid commander, squads of B1 and B2 Super Battledroids, using old Clone Troopers like Rex in the final seasons with his brothers, plus Ashoka grown up) and the revival of The Clone Wars: with its 7th season.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We've had this argument before and while it's probably tricky to actually compare them upon release because the internet changed everything, the PT were pretty strongly hated. 

I will admit though that everything is kind of up in the air right now, as the NT's detractors seem to have sided with the PT's. 

Is the RT audience score still credible? Cause I remember that being used to show how hated "TLJ" was... "The Force Awakens" and "Rogue One" have high audience scores; higher than the prequel trilogy. Even "Solo" scored higher than Episode 1 and 2. 

Also, do video game maps matter? I HATED the prequels, but even I'll admit that the character designs and settings are pretty cool and unique, while the newer films mostly rehash the old classics. If I have to choose between the PT and NT in maps, I'd probably do the PT... while still arguing that "The Phantom Menace" is the worst theatrical star wars movie.  



mr_shadow said:


> I think the titles of the Lucas-directed films were made intentionally cheesy-sounding, because Star Wars started out as a homage to 1940's science fiction.
> 
> Aren't there a lot of pulp "Attack of the [Noun]"?



I kind of miss the days "Star Wars: Episode --" didn't appear before the titles, although I understand why they do it.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 13, 2019)

Mider T said:


> You haven't been excited for anything Star Wars since Disney took over


As if that would even be an insult and not on the fault for Disney and lucasfilm for shitting the bed constantly.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

lol, I have an old TV recording of both "A New Hope" and "Empire Strikes Back", where it's just "Star Wars". Carrie Fischer is sort of hosting the marathon. There are a lot of commercials for 3DO, a gaming system, but I don't remember it at all. 



mr_shadow said:


> I still can't get over how "Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas" and "Darth Sidious" weren't the same person, when their names are basically alternate spellings of each other.
> 
> Then again, it'd have been the worst codename since "Jessica Jones".



Who was Sifo-Dyas again? I remember he ordered the clones, but was he just some dead Jedi?


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

Linguistics 101: Attack of the [Noun]
Linguistics 201: The [Noun] [Verbs] Back
Linguistics 301: The [Adjective] [Noun]

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> We've had this argument before and while it's probably tricky to actually compare them upon release because the internet changed everything, the PT were pretty strongly hated.



The argument is based off appealing to a vocal minority from being those who swallow the echo chamber from RLM and Plinkett's bullshit and tried to push a false gospel of lies about the Prequel Trilogy. There was never a level of vitriol or negative backlash or active campaigns to boycott Star Wars movies against the Prequels but we see that with the Sequels, so I say that's evidence enough its not true.



> I will admit though that everything is kind of up in the air right now, as the NT's detractors seem to have sided with the PT's.



If you mean the OT fans are hating the Sequels as much as the PT fans are, that's pretty reasonably obvious given how much damage TLJ did to the entire franchise and how it insulting it ended Luke's legacy. Luke's the most popular character in Star Wars, they killed him off in the worst way possible, so it makes sense.



> Is the RT audience score still credible? Cause I remember that being used to show how hated "TLJ" was... "The Force Awakens" and "Rogue One" have high audience scores; higher than the prequel trilogy. Even "Solo" scored higher than Episode 1 and 2.



Considering Rebels has a perfect 100% and Resistance has a 92% (and given how much it still gets mocked on its original trailers for release on Youtube) I wouldn't trust it. Much less figuring how Solo could even higher than anything other than TLJ given how much of a gigantic flop it was.



> Also, do video game maps matter? I HATED the prequels, but even I'll admit that the character designs and settings are pretty cool and unique, while the newer films mostly rehash the old classics. If I have to choose between the PT and NT in maps, I'd probably do the PT... while still arguing that "The Phantom Menace" is the worst theatrical star wars movie.



Why wouldn't they matter? The entire franchise was only bought by Disney to soullessly produce more merchandise so consumers would buy them to make Disney more money? The books haven't done well under Disney, the comics are doing worse then even the nadir period before the PT launched for Dark Horse back in the late 90s (pre-99), and then there isn't a single good Star Wars video game that was universally launched to praise.

People identify with Star Wars as a multi-generational saga. Star Wars was the King of Pop-Culture at its height. Some of the best video games have been Star Wars games (several which are based in the Prequels or at least the Clone Wars era); Republic Commandos, Revenge of the Sith official game, Battlefront 1 & 2 (classic), The Phantom Menace official game, Jedi Power Battles, etc..Star Wars was more then just movies to people, the games and books and comics drew people into the universe and kept it alive. If you can't see how that isn't important than I don't know what to say.

In seven years under Disney we've had Battlefront 1 EA, which was universally hated considering how dumbed down it was to the original game, completely arcadedy, lacking a single player, no AI or offline play, and P2W abusive for players. Then we had Battlefront 2 EA which added a single player campaign...which was only three or four hours long, the only time we play as Luke is him killing space bugs, and the biggest loot box controversy in video game history that cost EA and Disney over $2.5 billion in lost stock. They failed at cementing what grounded Star Wars instead of it being a passing fad had Lucas been as inept as they were after the OT concluded in 1983 with ROTJ.

So they matter a lot at keeping the universe alive for fans.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Yeah and when you think about it, in recent years the Prequels have gained new respect and appreciation. You see Prequel memes everywhere. There's a whole prequel apologetics movement on YouTube. People have grown to legitimately appreciate them, especially in the wake of TLJ. It wasn't always so. The prequel hate peaked about a decade ago with the Plinkett reviews but has since waned. It's a good nostalgia trip currently to bring them up, especially Palpatine who was the high point.



I just don't get it. I remember liking "TPM" alright as a kid, but when I tried to watch it again recently... Everything was bad. 

"Solo" wasn't good, but it was still competently shot and acted. Every frame of TPM just seemed awkward and dated and even the cast seems unsure how to react to what was going on around them. I get why people hate Rose, but is she in the movie anymore than Jar Jar Binks? Did her scenes undermine Luke's death like Jar Jar's goofiness does with Liam Neeson's?

So I just don't get it, but obviously some people see something there that I don't see, lol. 

I do sometimes think the masses often will overreact to something, only to look back upon their vitriol with embarrassment years later. No one bitches about "Twilight" anymore, because they have "Fifty Shades of Grey". I guess no one bitches about the prequels anymore because now they have the new trilogy.


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## Mider T (Apr 13, 2019)

Stringer said:


> either a new group/artist you just started listening to or from performers you were already familiar with but had not listened to a specific song of theirs yet


Btw I like that song


MartialHorror said:


> Who was Sifo-Dyas again? I remember he ordered the clones, but was he just some dead Jedi?





mr_shadow said:


> Linguistics 101: Attack of the [Noun]
> Linguistics 201: The [Noun] [Verbs] Back
> Linguistics 301: The [Adjective] [Noun]



Blatantly ignored


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## Jake CENA (Apr 13, 2019)

Disney should stick with Marvel and cartoons


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Who was Sifo-Dyas again? I remember he ordered the clones, but was he just some dead Jedi?



Sifo-Dyas was a member of the Jedi Council who secretly ordered the clones 10 years before Attack of the Clones, and was killed in action shortly after.

That would be right about the time of the Phantom Menace, when the Sith re-emerge from 1000 years in hiding, and Palpatine goes from being a relatively obscure senator to the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic.

For some reason Palpatine's apprentice Dooku (Darth Tyrannus) knows about the clones and goes to check up on them now and then.

I thought that all -clearly- pointed to Sifo-Dyas having turned to the Dark Side and created the Palpatine persona as a platform for becoming chancellor. When he was just a senator he could have Superman'd it and led a double life as Jedi and senator (using the Force to prevent people recognizing him), but when it came time to launch his "election campaign" with the Naboo incident he'd be too busy to be in two places at once, so he'd have faked the death of his original Jedi identity.

But instead it seem Sifo-Dyas was just some guy. He apparently shows up in one of the TV shows, and is not Palpatine.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

Fang said:


> The argument is based off appealing to a vocal minority from being who swallow the echo chamber from RLM and Plinkett's bullshit and tried to push a false gospel of lies about the Prequel Trilogy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol, so just to be clear, no one can use the poor user score of Rotten Tomatoes against TLJ anymore? Because I'm pretty sure you used that against me in our past debates and when people started claiming that they might've been tampered, they were labelled as conspiracy theorists... 




> Why wouldn't they matter? The entire franchise was only bought by Disney to soullessly produce more merchandise so consumers would buy them to make Disney more money? The books haven't done well under Disney, the comics are doing worse then even the nadir period before the PT launched for Dark Horse back in the late 90s (pre-99), and the there isn't a single good Star Wars video that was universally launched to praise.
> 
> People identify with Star Wars as a multi-generational saga. Star Wars was the King of Pop-Culture at its height. Some of the best video games have been Star Wars games (several which are based in the Prequels or at least the Clone Wars era); Republic Commandos, Revenge of the Sith official game, Battlefront 1 & 2 (classic), The Phantom Menace official game, Jedi Power Battles, etc..Star Wars was more then just movies to people, the games and books and comics drew people into the universe.
> 
> ...



You're bringing up a lot of interesting points, but that's a much bigger argument than whether people hate the PT or NT more. I hate "Transformers" (the movies) too, but can't deny they sell toys. 



mr_shadow said:


> Sifo-Dyas was a member of the Jedi Council who secretly ordered the clones 10 years before Attack of the Clones, and was killed in action shortly after.
> 
> That would be right about the time of the Phantom Menace, when the Sith re-emerge from 1000 years in hiding, and Palpatine goes from being a relatively obscure senator to the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic.
> 
> ...



I'm going to guess Lucas decided that Sifo-Dyas wouldn't be Palpatine  because Sifo-Dyas... is a pretty f@cking stupid name.


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## Pilaf (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I just don't get it. I remember liking "TPM" alright as a kid, but when I tried to watch it again recently... Everything was bad.
> 
> "Solo" wasn't good, but it was still competently shot and acted. Every frame of TPM just seemed awkward and dated and even the cast seems unsure how to react to what was going on around them. I get why people hate Rose, but is she in the movie anymore than Jar Jar Binks? Did her scenes undermine Luke's death like Jar Jar's goofiness does with Liam Neeson's?
> 
> ...




It's a combination of irony/memes, nostalgia and genuine affection for the characters and events, I suppose. A lot of people, myself included, see the prequels in a new light because of things like the Clone Wars series or spoof content like Backstroke of the West. Even the RLM stuff, which bashed the prequels, kept them in the public eye and continued breathing new life into them. They've taken on a renaissance of sorts. If Disney is wise they've realized this. I mean, apparently they already have because of the callbacks in Rebels and the comics.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

Reminder that *Yoda* lost to Palpatine in a 1v1 duel.

Rey can have as many thousand generations in her as she likes, if she beats the Emperor in a straight-up lightsaber fight she'll be the Blessed Virgin Mary of Sues.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> It's a combination of irony/memes, nostalgia and genuine affection for the characters and events, I suppose. A lot of people, myself included, see the prequels in a new light because of things like the Clone Wars series or spoof content like Backstroke of the West. Even the RLM stuff, which bashed the prequels, kept them in the public eye and continued breathing new life into them. They've taken on a renaissance of sorts. If Disney is wise they've realized this. I mean, apparently they already have because of the callbacks in Rebels and the comics.



Actually, you bring up a very good point that I hadn't thought of -- The Clone Wars.

I remember Darth Maul as a boring, disappointing villain with a wasted design, but it appears the animated series has made him a more interesting, nuanced character. So I guess the animated series (etc) fixed a lot of the problems with the PT, from what I hear, whereas the extended media surrounding the NT has yet to achieve that.

If that's the case, I guess I understand the PT's redemption. Still... I dunno, I feel like that could do more damage to Star Wars in the long run.

So to make the PT even watchable, I have to go through all of the extended media and fill in the blanks... That's kind of alienating, as I'm not a fan of animated TV shows... or comics... or even Star Wars games. "Solo" muddied the waters with its Darth Maul reveal, but like I said, my entire theater was confused. It sounds like if Star Wars relies too much on the extended media --past or present, it's just going to lose people.

Can you imagine if the MCU started doing that? We'd have to keep up with all those movies AND the extended media. Obviously the MCU has comics and a few TV shows, but I've never felt like the stories of the movies ever really leaned on them.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 13, 2019)

I wanted snoke to be someone


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## dr_shadow (Apr 13, 2019)

Though the notion of Yoda and Palpatine needing a wire-fu brawl is inherently silly.

Within the Asian-inspired archetypes, these guys are supposed to have transcended beyond mere fisticuffs, because they fully understand that both they, the opponent, and the space between them are part of the Force.

They'd probably just stand still in place and try to crush the other with their willpower. Basically like an epic staring contest with maybe objects shaking around them for dramatic effect.


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## Pilaf (Apr 13, 2019)

Palpatine won't necessarily be an antagonist. In his episode III dialogue he makes an allusion to a complete master exploring all sides of the Force. It's possible Rey is seeking him or some artifact of his out to give her more power or insight to finish off the First Order. It's possible his spirit or holocron would even side with the Resistance over the First Order. I imagine him seeing them as incompetent imitators unfit to wear the uniforms of his Imperials.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 13, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Palpatine won't necessarily be an antagonist. In his episode III dialogue he makes an allusion to a complete master exploring all sides of the Force. It's possible Rey is seeking him or some artifact of his out to give her more power or insight to finish off the First Order. It's possible his spirit or holocron would even side with the Resistance over the First Order. I imagine him seeing them as incompetent imitators unfit to wear the uniforms of his Imperials.


Than he should despise the Resistance in the same way since they are just as if not more incompetent.


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> lol, so just to be clear, no one can use the poor user score of Rotten Tomatoes against TLJ anymore? Because I'm pretty sure you used that against me in our past debates and when people started claiming that they might've been tampered, they were labelled as conspiracy theorists...



Well considering the explicit case with TLJ was people siding with Disney claiming the scores were tampered with by citing, "it was white supremacists, it was the alt-right, it was anti-Disney fans, etc..." and then RT's staff outright said the scores weren't tampered with the audience one, I don't really think you can make that correlation as an argument with TLJ specifically.



> You're bringing up a lot of interesting points, but that's a much bigger argument than whether people hate the PT or NT more. I hate "Transformers" (the movies) too, but can't deny they sell toys.



That's my point. Disney bought Star Wars for merchandise, and currently the franchise is hemorrhaging money. Last year they actually CONSOLIDATED their Star Wars brand with their parks and services brand to hide the fact the Star Wars IP has last continued to have increasing diminishing returns since TFA was released at the end of 2015. The movies make money at the box office, and we had that entire tangent about how much Disney actually gets of the total box office revenue but at the end of the day the actual money-maker for the franchise is the merchandise; toys, video games, books, comics, costumes, trading cards, action figures, etc...If Disney is struggling with that, then there's a clear indication that the appeal is failing.

And the biggest tie-in to this is the figurines and toys. There are two main demographics that funnel that into either making money or losing it: the collectors and the kids. The BLACK series Star Wars line of figurines are there for collector's to pay premium prices for higher quality, better articulated, much more accurately painted collectibles, and Disney and Hasbro/Kenner has failed hard to do that and the smaller figurines aimed at small children hasn't sold. There's a reason why you still have tons and tons of Sequel/Disney era Star Wars figures of Kylo Ren, Phasma, Rose, Snoke, Poe, and Old Man Luke, just taking shelf space in every major retailer. No one wants those, not the collectors who see them as rightfully low quality, nor the kids who don't think their cool.

If Disney can't make profit this way, its pretty indicative of the fact its a good barometer for how the franchise is being seen with the ST.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 13, 2019)

Fang said:


> Well considering the explicit case with TLJ was people siding with Disney claiming the scores were tampered with by citing, "it was white supremacists, it was the alt-right, it was anti-Disney fans, etc..." and then RT's staff outright said the scores weren't tampered with the audience one, I don't really think you can make that correlation as an argument with TLJ specifically.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's an interesting point that I'll have to think upon. But let me ask you this... does this mean that most of the detractors I've been fighting or debating with have been children this entire time? Or must we assume that Star Wars toy sales primarily come from adults? Because if I find out Suigetsu and Kanses/Kamal have been 12 this entire time... I quit. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "Revenge of the Sith" the first PG-13 Star Wars film (a rating that has become the norm)? Isn't it possible that toy and comic sales are sagging because this is the first time Star Wars as a whole hasn't been catering to children? I highly doubt that demographic is the one writing negative reviews online, although I can't say that for sure.

That does raise the question of why Disney decided to make these films so much darker and edgier from the beginning. At least in the case of the prequels, you can assume that the kids who enjoyed "TPM" reached an age where they might be interested in romance by the time "AoTC" came out... and were old enough to appreciate the edgier approach to "RotS"... Am I looking too deeply into this? Or did Lucas think that far ahead?


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> It's an interesting point that I'll have to think upon. But let me ask you this... does this mean that most of the detractors I've been fighting or debating with have been children this entire time? Or must we assume that Star Wars toy sales primarily come from adults? Because if I find out Suigetsu and Kanses/Kamal have been 12 this entire time... I quit.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "Revenge of the Sith" the first PG-13 Star Wars film (a rating that has become the norm)? Isn't it possible that toy and comic sales are sagging because this is the first time Star Wars as a whole hasn't been catering to children? I highly doubt that demographic is the one writing negative reviews online, although I can't say that for sure.
> 
> That does raise the question of why Disney decided to make these films so much darker and edgier from the beginning. At least in the case of the prequels, you can assume that the kids who enjoyed "TPM" reached an age where they might be interested in romance by the time "AoTC" came out... and were old enough to appreciate the edgier approach to "RotS"... Am I looking too deeply into this? Or did Lucas think that far ahead?



I'm not really sure what you mean by this. When the original trilogy came out, the PG rating was more or less family friendly. The movie series was aimed at being family entertainment, with the toys made and marketed for kids to buy and the more expensive stuff meant for collectors and hardcore fans. That mindset hasn't changed. When Revenge of the Sith became the first PG-13 movie, that frame was still kept even if the series took on a much darker and bleaker outlook.  

Anyway I'm pretty sure catering isn't the right word. Because namely the franchise has never had this sort of impact like with Disney now admitting their at 20% less profit with the Star Wars brand in terms of return on revenue then they were starting at over 4 years ago. Post-PT trilogy, and the franchise was still buoyed not only with figurine and toy sales but a very active video game catalog on consoles and PC as well as handhelds. The books which also make up something like $2.5-3.0 billion of the brand's total value out of $28 billion (Forbes estimate before transfer to Disney owning it) was mainly coming from novels that weren't even advertised on TV like the video games were and aimed at adults. 

Anyway, Lucas mistake was thinking the franchise was mainly for children with the first two PT films, Disney's mistake is thinking the same way but also cutting themselves out of the other games to profit the IP.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 14, 2019)

Fang said:


> I'm not really sure what you mean by this. When the original trilogy came out, the PG rating was more or less family friendly. The movie series was aimed at being family entertainment, with the toys made and marketed for kids to buy and the more expensive stuff meant for collectors and hardcore fans. That mindset hasn't changed. When Revenge of the Sith became the first PG-13 movie, that frame was still kept even if the series took on a much darker and bleaker outlook.
> 
> Anyway I'm pretty sure catering isn't the right word. Because namely the franchise has never had this sort of impact like with Disney now admitting their at 20% less profit with the Star Wars brand in terms of return on revenue then they were starting at over 4 years ago. Post-PT trilogy, and the franchise was still buoyed not only with figurine and toy sales but a very active video game catalog on consoles and PC as well as handhelds. The books which also make up something like $2.5-3.0 billion of the brand's total value out of $28 billion (Forbes estimate before transfer to Disney owning it) was mainly coming from novels that weren't even advertised on TV like the video games were and aimed at adults.
> 
> Anyway, Lucas mistake was thinking the franchise was mainly for children with the first two PT films, Disney's mistake is thinking the same way but also cutting themselves out of the other games to profit the IP.



George Lucas said it's for kids. The difference is in that the 1980's, kids films were much edgier than they were in the 1990's... and the 1990's was still edgier than they are now. 'Family Friendly' today is not the 'family friendly' of the 1980's.

Most of these newer films have even promoted themselves as 'darker and edgier'. There are more morally ambiguous characters, on-screen deaths and this isn't even getting into the racial and gender politics -- which have become a huge part of their marketing campaign... but won't mean a thing to kids. 

It just seems like Kennedy and company are marketing towards older Star Wars fans. Only they'd care about such things. 

The books are definitely a hole in my theory though, as I'd assume they were always designed to appeal to a slightly older demographic. Maybe there's just so many Disney Star Wars films coming out in quick succession that people don't feel the need to read the books. Or maybe the books just suck.


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## Atlas (Apr 14, 2019)




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## Stein (Apr 14, 2019)

SW's only path to redemption is bringing Palpy back so he can do this to all the new characters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mabel Gleeful (Apr 14, 2019)

"Rise of Skywalker" is such a horribly bad title. Honestly, the debacle about Episode VIII killed the franchise for me. It doesn't help that whenever I decide to rewatch TLJ, it's literally the opposite of wine. It somehowe worsens rather than improve with time. It's not the worst (Holiday Special, the Ewok films, The Clone Wars) but damn is it indefensible at this point. Even then, what killed the franchise was the right-wing reaction to it. 

Disney also didn't help when it blatantly bought off the critics to give it good press, legitimising the misogynist Gater crowd that has plagued the internet since 2016 with Trump's election, as well as the mediocrity they have been constantly churning out for the expanded universe (their TV series, novels and comic books about characters no one cares about and with stories that are good to take away insomnia).


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## Indra (Apr 14, 2019)

First two movies were shit.
This will be too.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 14, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Reminder that *Yoda* lost to Palpatine in a 1v1 duel.


nope, it was a ~draw battle-wise

Yoda "lost" since he didnt accomplish the objective aka kill Palps


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## Deathbringerpt (Apr 14, 2019)

That sure was a Star Wars trailer. Big old pile of nothing.

Palpatine as an evil force ghost is actually a neat idea. i doubt they'll give it justice.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 14, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> nope, it was a ~draw battle-wise
> 
> Yoda "lost" since he didnt accomplish the objective aka kill Palps



And Palpatine would have killed him if he hadn't thrown in the towel. That counts as a loss. 

A draw would have been if both combatants were knocked out and unable to continue fighting.


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## Pilaf (Apr 14, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Than he should despise the Resistance in the same way since they are just as if not more incompetent.




I don't think he's gonna exactly love them either but put yourself in his mindset and imagine some posers pretending to be your crew.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 14, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> And Palpatine would have killed him if he hadn't thrown in the towel. That counts as a loss.
> 
> A draw would have been if both combatants were knocked out and unable to continue fighting.


You need to rewatch that. Palp spent the whole battle attempting to run from Yoda and keep him at distance until he finally got the chance to escape in the end.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 14, 2019)

Rey kills palp


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## Deathbringerpt (Apr 14, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> Rey kills palp



That's why the idea will be botched. Nothing feels earned with that boring bimbo of a character.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 14, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> Rey kills palp


he will return again in episode XII


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 14, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I don't think he's gonna exactly love them either but put yourself in his mindset and imagine some posers pretending to be your crew.


He would manipulate them both to kill each other.


~Gesy~ said:


> You need to rewatch that. Palp spent the whole battle attempting to run from Yoda and keep him at distance until he finally got the chance to escape in the end.


Try re watching it yourself, Sidious only does that at the beginning which would be due to it only being around a day or since his fight with Mace where he got hit with his own Force Lighting so clearly he is not in the best of shape to shape. Only after he sees how using a lightsaber against Yoda is getting him nowhere does he start keeping his distance so he can use his force abilities instead of running away and it is Yoda who runs away after their final clash on that senate pod, not Sidious.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 14, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> You need to rewatch that. Palp spent the whole battle attempting to run from Yoda and keep him at distance until he finally got the chance to escape in the end.




Not sure I see the "running" part except at the very start.

I can see how you might call it a draw, but I'm still in favor of calling it a win for Palpatine because Yoda is apparently shaken enough to withdraw, while Palpatine has the high ground and is still in the room. 

Not sure why Yoda retreats though, since he doesn't seem that injured (not visibly bleeding or anything) and his lightsaber should still be down in the rubble somewhere. Can't he just summon it back to his hand?


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## The Runner (Apr 14, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> while Palpatine has the high ground


Son of a bitch...


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 14, 2019)

Palps had reinforcements inc and Yodas time was running out

but they were evenly matched blow for blow


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## Brian (Apr 14, 2019)

Rey is going to absorb the spirits of all the jedi masters to defeat Palpatine


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## Son Of Man (Apr 14, 2019)

You guys hear about the time travel fan theory? It's so batshit crazy I kind of want to see it happen for the lols


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 14, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> You guys hear about the time travel fan theory? It's so batshit crazy I kind of want to see it happen for the lols


With how bad the ST has gotten it would be needed just to wipe the slate clean and try again


If they even bother to learn from their failures.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 14, 2019)

Brian said:


> Rey is going to absorb the spirits of all the jedi masters to defeat Palpatine


Rey: The Last Forcebender


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## Fang (Apr 14, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> It just seems like Kennedy and company are marketing towards older Star Wars fans. Only they'd care about such things.



It seems the opposite of that given that the Sequels seem to have very strongly alienated people who grew up with the OT and PT. There is a definite generational gap between those series and the Sequels.


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## Fang (Apr 14, 2019)

>Avengers Endgame trailer gets 300 million views in 24 hours
>Frozen 2 trailer gets 110 million views in 24 hours
>Star Wars 9 gets 19 million in 24 hours

Sasuga Kathleen and Rian


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## Atlas (Apr 14, 2019)

Fang said:


> >Avengers Endgame trailer gets 300 million views in 24 hours
> >Frozen 2 trailer gets 110 million views in 24 hours
> >Star Wars 9 gets 19 million in 24 hours
> 
> Sasuga Kathleen and Rian



I literally still haven't watched it.


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## Fang (Apr 14, 2019)

Atlas said:


> I literally still haven't watched it.



Just for comparison, TFA's teaser trailer had over 100 million views in less than 24 hours.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 14, 2019)




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## Fang (Apr 14, 2019)

And so did TLJ's as well.


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## Fang (Apr 14, 2019)

Based Zanny

Reactions: Like 1


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## Black Leg Sanji (Apr 15, 2019)

Fang said:


> Just for comparison, TFA's teaser trailer had over 100 million views in less than 24 hours.



Last movie is gonna draw the audience back in again, believe it


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 15, 2019)

Endgame wil make 3 billion to cover for ep 9

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mob (Apr 15, 2019)

*Link Removed*

Reactions: Like 2


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 15, 2019)

Mob said:


> *Link Removed*


Greatest plot twist ever. I r8 8/8


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## Deathbringerpt (Apr 15, 2019)

Mob said:


> *Link Removed*



Funny shit.

I take it they're just fucking around and training. If Palpatine is the big bad, Kylo is gonna help Ray be the Mary Suest of them all.


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## Mabel Gleeful (Apr 15, 2019)

I doubt Rey will beat Palpatine in all honesty, if Palpatine turns out to be more than a glorified cameo. For all the trash of TLJ, it still had Snoke neg diff her.


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## Huey Freeman (Apr 15, 2019)

Still amazes me how Disney fucked up the largest and most lucrative franchise in history.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 15, 2019)

Huey Freeman said:


> Still amazes me how Disney fucked up the largest and most lucrative franchise in history.


The bar was set so fucking low by Lucas...


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## Mob (Apr 15, 2019)

best movie ever

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deathbringerpt (Apr 15, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> The bar was set so fucking low by Lucas...



And yet they managed to miss it by a fucking country mile and somehow sink the fucking bar even lower.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 15, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> And yet they managed to miss it by a fucking country mile and somehow sink the fucking bar even lower.


i think the bar is higher because they are an actual company, not some weirdo doofus old guy staring into the abyss in food courts.


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## Deathbringerpt (Apr 15, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> i think the bar is higher because they are an actual company, not some weirdo doofus old guy staring into the abyss in food courts.



So the bar is higher because the movies are much worse but they're made by a company and not an old guy? Who was making the movies with his own company anyway?

Did you even think this post through?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 15, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> So the bar is higher because the movies are much worse but they're made by a company and not an old guy? Who was making the movies with his own company anyway?
> 
> Did you even think this post through?


Yes.

Lucas had no shareholders demanding things.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 15, 2019)




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## U mad bro (Apr 15, 2019)

Luke in spirit form"Rey I am your father"
Rey"Why didn't you tell me while you were alive"
Luke"I didn't want to pay child support. Shit with you and your cousin was getting weird I had to tell you."


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## MartialHorror (Apr 15, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> So the bar is higher because the movies are much worse but they're made by a company and not an old guy? Who was making the movies with his own company anyway?
> 
> Did you even think this post through?



lol... poor Deathbringerpt...

He doesn't know the Lovecraftian horror he has stumbled upon...

He doesn't know...the posts of @Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard!

That is probably the most cohesive post from Kansas that I've ever seen.


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## Fang (Apr 15, 2019)

So I just realized as a bit of a slowpoke moment but the abbreviation of Rise of the Skywalker is ROTS, just like Revenge of the Sith. Can't wait for people to see that.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 15, 2019)

Fang said:


> So I just realized as a bit of a slowpoke moment but the abbreviation of Rise of the Skywalker is ROTS, just like Revenge of the Sith. Can't wait for people to see that.


They literally stealing anything they can now in the ST.


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## Fang (Apr 15, 2019)

Well technically I guess its TROTS


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 15, 2019)

Fang said:


> Well technically I guess its TROTS


Sounds more like THOTS


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## Fang (Apr 15, 2019)




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## Mabel Gleeful (Apr 15, 2019)

And thus the woman bashing begins.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 15, 2019)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> And thus the woman bashing begins.


>ignoring that we are bashing everyone in the ST
Mabel pls.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 16, 2019)

Anybody remember "Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds"? It was like a "Star Craft" game, except with Star Wars. 

I remember there was a cheat code (simonsez) where you can summon an ewok... that was nearly invincible. I would always try to play the game seriously, but every time... I just couldn't help myself. It was too gratifying seeing Ewoks cut through Jedi Masters and Sith Lords alike. My Ewokian Empire must reign supreme! 

Were there any other games like that? I enjoyed that one.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 16, 2019)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> And thus the woman bashing begins.


All Kahleen K had to do is just be mediocre...

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Apr 16, 2019)

@MartialHorror 

Wookiepedia says there are five Star Wars Real Time Strategy games.

Star Wars: Rebellion (1998)
Star Wars: Force Commander (2000)
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds (2001)
Star Waes: Empire at War (2006)
Star Wars: Battle Orders (2012) [IPhone]


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## Yagami1211 (Apr 16, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 







Okay, so the French Title is "L'ascension de Skywalker" or "Skywalker's ascension".


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## Fang (Apr 16, 2019)

Lmao


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## blakstealth (Apr 16, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Anybody remember "Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds"? It was like a "Star Craft" game, except with Star Wars.
> 
> I remember there was a cheat code (simonsez) where you can summon an ewok... that was nearly invincible. I would always try to play the game seriously, but every time... I just couldn't help myself. It was too gratifying seeing Ewoks cut through Jedi Masters and Sith Lords alike. My Ewokian Empire must reign supreme!
> 
> Were there any other games like that? I enjoyed that one.


I've only played star wars empire at war and its expansion. I haven't played it in years, but remember really liking it. Definitely give that a whirl.


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## Fang (Apr 16, 2019)

Battlegrounds was actually made using a modified Age of Empire's II engine. Then they made a Clone Wars expansion for it after AOTC dropped in theaters a few months later.


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## Deathbringerpt (Apr 16, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> lol... poor Deathbringerpt...
> 
> He doesn't know the Lovecraftian horror he has stumbled upon...
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'm not even remotely into Star Wars enough to put up with nerd movie arguments in an anime forum. At some point you just gotta draw a line.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 17, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> At some point you just gotta draw a line.



That reminds me, nsfw


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Apr 18, 2019)

Sizzle reel.


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## Blocky (Apr 18, 2019)

Regardless how Disney messed up Star Wars, I think it shows how we still care about Star Wars despite all of its awful crap that came from it.

It’s something for everyone I suppose


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 19, 2019)

Blocky said:


> Regardless how Disney messed up Star Wars, I think it shows how we still care about Star Wars despite all of its awful crap that came from it.
> 
> It’s something for everyone I suppose


I care enough about it to want it to die so it's suffering can be over


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## Fang (Apr 19, 2019)

Blocky said:


> Regardless how Disney messed up Star Wars, I think it shows how we still care about Star Wars despite all of its awful crap that came from it.
> 
> It’s something for everyone I suppose



Its more like a form of torture to see something you love get dragged down a dreary path of intentional politicalization for the sake of WOKE points


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 19, 2019)

Fang said:


> Its more like a form of torture to see something you love get dragged down a dreary path of intentional politicalization for the sake of WOKE points


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## MartialHorror (Apr 19, 2019)

I dusted off "Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds" and played it for a few hours... and got it out of my system, so I can wait another 10 years before I revisit it... It's fun for awhile, but it is a sluggishly paced game.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 19, 2019)

Okay, I lied and played the game again... all you have to do to win is build turrets in the enemy base. It will wipe out their army until siege weapons become available during level 3 of your technology upgrades -- which takes awhile. The building durability is rigged, lol.

The AI is also really dumb, sending one unit at a time to their deaths.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 19, 2019)

Blocky said:


> Regardless how Disney messed up Star Wars, I think it shows how we still care about Star Wars despite all of its awful crap that came from it.


Well, we can't do shit about it...

Only the market can and even that is hard with how boneheaded Disney is.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 20, 2019)




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## Fang (Apr 21, 2019)

Ugh


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 21, 2019)

honestly will just be glad to see this trilogy end and then hire Peter Jackson as director of a new Star Wars flick


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 21, 2019)

Dean Ambrose said:


> honestly will just be glad to see this trilogy end and then hire Peter Jackson as director of a new Star Wars flick


I want Clint Eastwood after this bs.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 21, 2019)

Rey is palp/anakin clone


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 21, 2019)

Rey is actually the new wife of Palpatine and she calls herself Sith Thot 

It's up to Finn and co to slap the thot out of Mary sue


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 21, 2019)

I still haven't forgiven Disney for marketing Finn as a Jedi the first movie.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 21, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Apr 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I still haven't forgiven Disney for marketing Finn as a Jedi the first movie.



Yeah that was pretty cheap. I respect J.J Abrams a lot and how he markets his films is genius... in a very deceptive way... I still wonder why they pushed that. Did they think a black man wielding a light saber would draw more attention than a white woman doing the same? 

If anything, I'd think a female jedi would've been more marketable, considering films like "The Hunger Games" were trendy... and it's a little more unique in regards to the film series (the prequels had Samuel Jackson, but the only female Jedi was an extra). 

Some theorize that Finn has 'the force' though, so maybe he will become a Jedi, although I highly doubt it. The biggest/only argument in his favor is Kylo Ren seemingly sensing something off him.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 21, 2019)

Dean Ambrose said:


> honestly will just be glad to see this trilogy end and then hire Peter Jackson as director of a new Star Wars flick


After the shit way he handled the Hobbit films? Not at all.


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## Fang (Apr 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah that was pretty cheap. I respect J.J Abrams a lot and how he markets his films is genius... in a very deceptive way... I still wonder why they pushed that. Did they think a black man wielding a light saber would draw more attention than a white woman doing the same?
> 
> If anything, I'd think a female jedi would've been more marketable, considering films like "The Hunger Games" were trendy... and it's a little more unique in regards to the film series (the prequels had Samuel Jackson, but the only female Jedi was an extra).
> 
> Some theorize that Finn has 'the force' though, so maybe he will become a Jedi, although I highly doubt it. The biggest/only argument in his favor is Kylo Ren seemingly sensing something off him.



There have been dozens of major female Jedi. The main protagonist in KoTOR 2 was made a canon female with the Jedi Exile, Nomi Sunrider was the protagonist of the final Tales of the Jedi story arc in the comics, we've had multiple female Jedi main characters in various books as the lead characters as well. And if you want to ignore those, even on screen we had Aayla, Ashoka, Bariss, and some others in the CGI TV series of The Clone Wars and Rebels.

Finn just sucks.


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## Suigetsu (Apr 21, 2019)

Rise of the soy boi its rots as rots of 2005.


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 21, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> After the shit way he handled the Hobbit films? Not at all.


He was part of the Hobbit Films?


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 21, 2019)

Dean Ambrose said:


> He was part of the Hobbit Films?


He was the director of the Hobbit films.


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 21, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> He was the director of the Hobbit films.


I change my mind then


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## MartialHorror (Apr 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> There have been dozens of major female Jedi. The main protagonist in KoTOR 2 was made a canon female with the Jedi Exile, Nomi Sunrider was the protagonist of the final Tales of the Jedi story arc in the comics, we've had multiple female Jedi main characters in various books as the lead characters as well. And if you want to ignore those, even on screen we had Aayla, Ashoka, Bariss, and some others in the CGI TV series of The Clone Wars and Rebels.
> 
> Finn just sucks.



That's why I said the film series.



NostalgiaFan said:


> After the shit way he handled the Hobbit films? Not at all.



In Peter Jackson's defense, he was apparently railroaded by the studios. He was brought in last minute, had little time to prepare, was forced to do the love triangle and I believe was forced to make the movies into a trilogy instead of the originally planned two parter -- which is why the ending of part 2 was so abrupt.

With that said, Jackson was already showing signs of over indulging himself with "King Kong" and especially "The Lovely Bones", so I kind of feel like "The Hobbit" probably would've collapsed underneath its own weight anyway. I love the guy, but I feel like he should return to lower budgeted movies just to show he can still do them.

I don't think he'd be a good fit for Star Wars. Guillermo del Toro would be an interesting fit, but he'd probably get railroaded by Disney.


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## ~VK~ (Apr 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


>




Biggest waste of potential easily.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 21, 2019)

They got us good VK...smh


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


>


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


>


Finn Windu

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 21, 2019)

Now Finn's biggest claim to fame will be his bromance with Poe.


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Now Finn's biggest claim to fame will be his bromance with Poe.



He had the better story too, he was part of the empire, realized they were utter evil , and struggled to find his good side.

Would have built up to a great three parter to becoming a Jedi


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## ~VK~ (Apr 21, 2019)

Bruh not ending up being a jedi is one thing. I could’ve lived with that. But these damn people just had to ^ (learn some history) him up.

Useless ass comic relief side kick.

Finn is the jar jar binks of this trilogy. 

The fact that his backstory and character actually allowed for a goldmine of opportunities for development just makes it all the more painful to watch him be what he is now...sigh


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## Fang (Apr 21, 2019)

Funny how the NPCs claim Sequel Trilogy is better for PoCs yet:

>JJ has Finn drinking water out of a trough like an animal
>Finn constantly gets emasculated in most scenes when sharing the spotlight with Rey
>His reveal of his job as an ex-Stormtrooper in the First Order was he was so incompetent he was just mainly used as a janitor/custodian for cleaning shit on Starkiller Base
>treated like a joke by Kylo who was already injured by Chewie's bowcaster and bleeding out the side moments earlier
>gets paired with a goblin and TLJ starts with him being used as literal gag humor 
>his big moment to stop the First Order from taking down the gates to the old Rebel base on Crait and save his friends in the Resistance is completely wrecked by Rose

Compared to:

OT:
>Lando being a suave gambler and former smuggler who made his way up to being the governor of Cloud City on Bespin and was the former Falcon's original owner
>helping destroy the Second Death Star with Wedge and leading the Alliance starfighter squadrons against the Imperial fleet at Endor

PT:

>Windu being the most powerful Jedi Master and greatest lightsaber duelist on in the entire Jedi Order and pretty much equal to Sidious and Yoda
>Who also killed Jango Fett, a bounty hunter infamous for taking down Jedi even unarmed with his bare hands and has a purple colored blade for his lighsaber because he's a BAMF
>A man who doesn't take shit from the Chosen One and puts him in his place constantly


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## MartialHorror (Apr 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Now Finn's biggest claim to fame will be his bromance with Poe.





Dean Ambrose said:


> He had the better story too, he was part of the empire, realized they were utter evil , and struggled to find his good side.
> 
> Would have built up to a great three parter to becoming a Jedi





~VK~ said:


> Bruh not ending up being a jedi is one thing. I could’ve lived with that. But these damn people just had to ^ (learn some history) him up.
> 
> Useless ass comic relief side kick.
> 
> ...



I actually think it would've been more interesting if Finn was the main character, but NOT a jedi or force sensitive in any way. Then we would've had a hero who struggled with keeping up with an overpowered force user (Rey), yet would still ultimately be the one who saves the day... 

Admittedly, I don't know how it would work... in the EU, has someone without any force sensitivity ever really defeated a Jedi or Sith in a way that was cool or exciting? I can't imagine how, but it would be different for the franchise if the filmmakers could figure it out.


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I actually think it would've been more interesting if Finn was the main character, but NOT a jedi or force sensitive in any way. Then we would've had a hero who struggled with keeping up with an overpowered force user (Rey), yet would still ultimately be the one who saves the day...
> 
> Admittedly, I don't know how it would work... in the EU, has someone without any force sensitivity ever really defeated a Jedi or Sith in a way that was cool or exciting? I can't imagine how, but it would be different for the franchise if the filmmakers could figure it out.


I guess you could have him shoot the Sith to save Rey at the end of her battle


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## MartialHorror (Apr 21, 2019)

Dean Ambrose said:


> I guess you could have him shoot the Sith to save Rey at the end of her battle



Eh, that sounds kind of lame. The closest thing I can think of... and admittedly, this isn't that great either... is if Rey fought Kylo Ren and actually lost. Finn goes to defend her and while he's outclassed, he's able to outwit Ren somehow. 

Then again, Finn was able to put up a fight against Kylo Ren in TFA, so maybe it's not impossible that a very skilled swordsmen can take on a Jedi or Sith... as long as they don't use the force. This is kind of at odds with the prequels though, which show the Jedi performing impossible feats of athleticism, speed and strength. 

Episode 9 shows Rey doing some crazy stuff, so she's presumably reached that level. I guess we have to assume that Snoke did something to keep Kylo Ren "weak" as far as force user skills go... or Kylo Ren's internal turmoil held him back that much. I think the former makes more sense just because Snoke doesn't want another Vader/Palpatine scenario... which makes his fate even more poetic. Of course -- the real reason is just that the filmmakers didn't think this far ahead, but it's not like Lucas himself was above this either.

But I digress, even if I got what I want and the protagonist couldn't use the force, yet still faced opponents who could... this would get really tricky when said opponents reached 'master' level.


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## ~VK~ (Apr 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I actually think it would've been more interesting if Finn was the main character, but NOT a jedi or force sensitive in any way. Then we would've had a hero who struggled with keeping up with an overpowered force user (Rey), yet would still ultimately be the one who saves the day...


This prolly works better in concept than execution.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 21, 2019)

It's not just finn. Poe isn't getting anything worth his time either. They have oscar isaacs and they're giving him discount han solo material. You have rey and you have kylo and then everybody else.

Even comic relief sidekick finn could have been something. I keep using avatar analogies for the new star wars for some reason, but the sokka archetype isn't bad when he's done well. You just have to give him an awesome girlfriend, make him the conscience of the group, let him work a little bit harder than everybody else to keep up and also ground his more powerful friends when they get too bigheaded.

It could have worked.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 21, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> It's not just finn. Poe isn't getting anything worth his time either. They have oscar isaacs and they're giving him discount han solo material. You have rey and you have kylo and then everybody else.
> 
> Even comic relief sidekick finn could have been something. I keep using avatar analogies for the new star wars for some reason, but the sokka archetype isn't bad when he's done well. You just have to give him an awesome girlfriend, make him the conscience of the group, let him work a little bit harder than everybody else to keep up and also ground his more powerful friends when they get too bigheaded.
> 
> It could have worked.


Huh? A large chunk of the last film was dedicated towards Poe's development. I'd say he's the number 2 protagonist.


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## B Rabbit (Apr 21, 2019)

Honestly.

Finn not being the jedi completely ruined the whole trilogy for me.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Huh? A large chunk of the last film was dedicated towards Poe's development. I'd say he's the number 2 protagonist.


What fucking "development"? Sit down, shut up and never question your superiors?


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 21, 2019)

Humble yourself. And accept that losses will happen in war.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 21, 2019)

Poe's side plot was bullshit just like finn's and it took up even less screentime.

Finn got more screentime than even kylo in last jedi. 

Here's a screentime ranking - 

It's not the quantity, it's the quality.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 21, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Poe's side plot was bullshit just like finn's and it took up even less screentime.
> 
> Finn got more screentime than even kylo in last jedi.
> 
> ...


Rather you think it's bullshit or not . Poe's side plot was the backbone of the movie and far deeper than Finn looking for his potential mate and ending up settling for another.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Rather you think it's bullshit or not . Poe's side plot was the backbone of the movie and far deeper than Finn looking for his potential mate and ending up settling for another.



Well hold on.

What would you have thought if the roles were switched and finn took up poe's subplot? Finally gets put into a leadership position, takes command, makes some calls, only to be made a fool of by the purple haired lady?

That wouldn't have been a good look for him either imo.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 21, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Well hold on.
> 
> What would you have thought if the roles were switched and finn took up poe's subplot? Finally gets put into a leadership position, takes command, makes some calls, only to be made a fool of by the purple haired lady?
> 
> That wouldn't have been a good look for him either imo.


The alternative would've had people calling him a Mary Sue similar to Rey.

So....

But yes. I would've rather Poe and Finn switch roles...Finn's role was mostly filler..what are we even arguing about?


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## Jon Moxley (Apr 21, 2019)

I'd have still made Finn a Jedi and Rey turned actual villain.

First part would be Finn struggling to find the inner hero after witnessing the Empire's cruelty and wondering if he's a hero or a villain while Kylo discovering Rey and training her .

Second part would be Finn worrying about living up to a Jedi's legacy and still trying to gain control of his skills while Rey and Kylo wreck shit up including killing Han and Leia  to add actual stakes.

Third part is Finn finally at a level where he along with the Rebellion fight back with Poe becoming the leader , with Rey and Kylo as both main villains 


In b4 this writing is basically the old Star Wars


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 21, 2019)

I don't remember whether it was brought up in this thread or somewhere else, but it would have been so much better if finn was rescuing child soldiers being indoctrinated into the empire in last jedi instead of animals. Because finn was a child soldier indoctrinated into the empire.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Humble yourself. And accept that losses will happen in war.


Except that if he did not destroy that dreadnought it would have destroyed the Raddish which would have ended the resistance right than and there. And the film does not even follow that logic as it is shown thanks to idiots like Rose and the Purple lady it ended up with the Resistance almost being destroyed thanks to their idiotic decisions.


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## Fang (Apr 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Huh? A large chunk of the last film was dedicated towards Poe's development. I'd say he's the number 2 protagonist.



What development in TLJ? Poe had none of that.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 22, 2019)

Fang said:


> What development in TLJ? Poe had none of that.


The development that "hope is like the sun and just because you cannot see it does to mean it  does not exists" or whatever stupid shit that Miss Barney was talking about.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 22, 2019)

That has nothing to do with the points made


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 22, 2019)

Fang said:


> What development in TLJ? Poe had none of that.


You sure? Cause I'm pretty sure the film ended insinuating that Poe learned a lesson in growth.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> That has nothing to do with the points made


Your points are not even backed up by the film itself.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Your points are not even backed up by the film itself.


That he's taken more seriously than Finn? Even though the film freaking opens with him making a fool of the First Order?

That the movie wasn't focused on developing Poe? Despite it telling us so in the third act?

Which of my points wasn't backed by the film?


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## Fang (Apr 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> You sure? Cause I'm pretty sure the film ended insinuating that Poe learned a lesson in growth.



What growth again? He was emasculated over a plot point because Holdo decided to withhold information that caused more causalities to the Resistance, so the "lesson" was largely irrelevant for his development other then him not being so cocksure. I don't really count that as growth. And I mean this is all kind of neutered by the fact that the people he saves when sounding the retreat when they try to take out the walkers is the Resistance down to a handful of people anyways.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> That he's taken more seriously than Finn? Even though the film freaking opens with him making a fool of the First Order?
> 
> That the movie wasn't focused on developing Poe? Despite it telling us so in the third act?
> 
> Which of my points wasn't backed by the film?


"taken more seriously" are you dense? The film had him get berated as a fool by Holdo and others and talked down to like a child. His so called development about "accepting the loss of lives" was absolutely contradicted by Holdo and Rose doing the very opposite which caused the Resistance to shrink to just a few dozen at best. The only thing he really changed was him deciding to botch the attempt at taking out that ground canon that just made every single life they lost out of the Rebel Base pointless and like I said already contradicted by Rose saving Finns life for trying to stop the canon which is the opposite of what the film kept hammering into Poe.

Just what the hell did the movie do to back up your points other than just say "he learned this and that" because you know damn well you have to show, not just tell your audience what your character learned instead of just expecting people to eat it up.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 22, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> It's not just finn. Poe isn't getting anything worth his time either. They have oscar isaacs and they're giving him discount han solo material. You have rey and you have kylo and then everybody else.
> 
> Even comic relief sidekick finn could have been something. I keep using avatar analogies for the new star wars for some reason, but the sokka archetype isn't bad when he's done well. You just have to give him an awesome girlfriend, make him the conscience of the group, let him work a little bit harder than everybody else to keep up and also ground his more powerful friends when they get too bigheaded.
> 
> It could have worked.



That's probably because Poe was originally supposed to die in the beginning of TFA, but J.J Abrams changed his mind when he realized that people would like the character -- and apparently Oscar Isaacs was hesitant to take the role because he had played a similar casualty in  "The Bourne Legacy".

This is once again why I'm hesitant to embrace a lot of these flaws, as once again, Lucas similar mistakes. I still think the accidental i*c*st of the OT is more cringe inducing. 

Interestingly, J.J Abrams ended up making a similar mistake to Lucas with TFA. Just as Lucas killed off Bobba Fett in such a lame way, not realizing how popular he would be, Abrams killed off that bad-ass storm trooper who takes on Finn... assuming people would be more taken with Phasma -- even though she did nothing worthy of being popular.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> That he's taken more seriously than Finn? Even though the film freaking opens with him making a fool of the First Order?
> 
> That the movie wasn't focused on developing Poe? Despite it telling us so in the third act?
> 
> Which of my points wasn't backed by the film?





Fang said:


> What growth again? He was emasculated over a plot point because Holdo decided to withhold information that caused more causalities to the Resistance, so the "lesson" was largely irrelevant for his development other then him not being so cocksure. I don't really count that as growth. And I mean this is all kind of neutered by the fact that the people he saves when sounding the retreat when they try to take out the walkers is the Resistance down to a handful of people anyways.





NostalgiaFan said:


> "taken more seriously" are you dense? The film had him get berated as a fool by Holdo and others and talked down to like a child. His so called development about "accepting the loss of lives" was absolutely contradicted by Holdo and Rose doing the very opposite which caused the Resistance to shrink to just a few dozen at best. The only thing he really changed was him deciding to botch the attempt at taking out that ground canon that just made every single life they lost out of the Rebel Base pointless and like I said already contradicted by Rose saving Finns life for trying to stop the canon which is the opposite of what the film kept hammering into Poe.
> 
> Just what the hell did the movie do to back up your points other than just say "he learned this and that" because you know damn well you have to show, not just tell your audience what your character learned instead of just expecting people to eat it up.



lol, I do love how ya'll continue to debate these same points since 2017... I envy your stamina for this kind of stuff.


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## ~VK~ (Apr 22, 2019)

poe got dealt a better hand than finn. only very marginally better but better nonetheless.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> lol, I do love how ya'll continue to debate these same points since 2017... I envy your stamina for this kind of stuff.


Yeah I'm trying not to be sucked in it tbh. Nostalgia is an OBDer who loves arguing waaaaaay more than I do. 



NostalgiaFan said:


> "taken more seriously" are you dense? The film had him get berated as a fool by Holdo and others and talked down to like a child.


He acted like one


NostalgiaFan said:


> His so called development about "accepting the loss of lives" was absolutely contradicted by Holdo and Rose doing the very opposite which caused the Resistance to shrink to just a few dozen at best.


How many would've Been left if Holdo didn't take out the enemy ship?


NostalgiaFan said:


> Just what the hell did the movie do to back up your points other than just say "he learned this and that" because you know damn well you have to show, not just tell your audience what your character learned instead of just expecting people to eat it up.



Mind you I only vaguely remember the movie..but didn't Poe command a retreat? Something he was against doing in the beginning?


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## MartialHorror (Apr 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah I'm trying not to be sucked in it tbh. Nostalgia is an OBDer who loves arguing waaaaaay more than I do.



Maybe if you start hating on the movie, he will instinctively start defending it.

*Sigh* I miss the guy who said Holdo had "SJW hair".


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah I'm trying not to be sucked in it tbh. Nostalgia is an OBDer who loves arguing waaaaaay more than I do.


Says the guy who proceeds to continue arguing anyway. Lovely hypocrisy.


~Gesy~ said:


> He acted like one


In comparison to who, the idiot captain who refused to be reasonable and just kept shit secret for no reason which not only lost Poe's trust, but half of the crew of the Raddish?


~Gesy~ said:


> How many would've Been left if Holdo didn't take out the enemy ship?


How many would have lived if she just let them know there was at least a fucking plan? Are you now defending Holdo as if she is not one of the biggest fuck ups in SW history?


~Gesy~ said:


> Mind you I only vaguely remember the movie..but didn't Poe command a retreat? Something he was against doing in the beginning?


That one action he took that made the lost of lives out of the Rebel base pointless and which does not even follow your "accept that losses will happen in war" point since the reason he did that was not to have anymore losses at all. Poe's "lesson" does not even follow it's own logic, especially in how Rose "rescues" of Finn contradicts that entirely.


MartialHorror said:


> Maybe if you start hating on the movie, he will instinctively start defending it.


"instinctively" I love how 2 years later you who defended the film still act as if people only hate it for attention, and not because it was just shit.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I actually think it would've been more interesting if Finn was the main character, but NOT a jedi or force sensitive in any way. Then we would've had a hero who struggled with keeping up with an overpowered force user (Rey), yet would still ultimately be the one who saves the day...
> 
> Admittedly, I don't know how it would work... in the EU, has someone without any force sensitivity ever really defeated a Jedi or Sith in a way that was cool or exciting? I can't imagine how, but it would be different for the franchise if the filmmakers could figure it out.


Could you give a charisma injection to Boyega? When he was paired with Scott Eastwood in Pacific Rim 2 it was so clear that he should not even be a leading man in a DTV action movie.



MartialHorror said:


> Maybe if you start hating on the movie, he will instinctively start defending it.
> 
> *Sigh* I miss the guy who said Holdo had "SJW hair".



From a canon SJW planet...


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## MartialHorror (Apr 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "instinctively" I love how 2 years later you who defended the film still act as if people only hate it for attention, and not because it was just shit.



I love how 2 years later you're still whining about it. Move on, buddy. There are fresher turds worthier of your wrath. At least try talking about something different that wasn't debated into dust back in 2017... or recognize what is clearly a facetious post when you see it.

Ya'll take yourselves too seriously.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I love how 2 years later you're still whining about it. Move on, buddy. There are fresher turds worthier of your wrath. At least try talking about something different that wasn't debated into dust back in 2017... or recognize what is clearly a facetious post when you see it.
> 
> Ya'll take yourselves too seriously.


People  are debating the MCU woke turn...

You have no legitimate complaint. People still debate how bad the prequels were...

Who are you tell us what to debate and in what year?


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Ya'll take yourselves too seriously.



Not as seriously as the last jedi takes itself.

*high fives kansas*


may it never stop

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Apr 22, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> People  are debating the MCU woke turn...
> 
> You have no legitimate complaint. People still debate how bad the prequels were...
> 
> *Who are you tell us what to debate and in what year?*



Your Master.

Now go make me a sandwich, manbitch.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Your Master, manbitch.
> 
> Now go make me a sandwich.


I never walked away from fights with you for any time interval...

You on the other hand...


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## MartialHorror (Apr 22, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Yes... Master...



Make me another sandwich.

Edit: And congratulations for producing a rare, coherent post.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Make me another sandwich.


Make an actual argument...

Or all you know is ad hominem?


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## MartialHorror (Apr 22, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Make an actual argument...
> 
> Or all you know is ad hominem... Master?



lol, make a post I can actually read without google translation, then maybe... just maybe... I will play with you.

Until then, I want that sandwich.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> lol, make a post I can actually read without google translation, then maybe... just maybe... I will play with you.
> 
> Until then, I want that sandwich.


You know what a flop is in sports?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 22, 2019)

Dean Ambrose said:


> Rey is actually the new wife of Palpatine and she calls herself Sith Thot
> 
> It's up to Finn and co to slap the thot out of Mary sue



And he will do it because Finn's grandpa was actually the space plumber that maintained Palpatine's personal toilet.
So thanks to all of gramps's stories about the big shits flooding the imperial toilet, he knows the layout of Palpatines secret summer base by heart.


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## Kuromaku (Apr 22, 2019)

It's rather depressing just how unmemorable much of the new films' scores are compared to the previous trilogies'. You get the sense that while Williams might be past his prime, neither Abrams nor Johnson really took advantage of the real secret weapon of the franchise. Honestly, they should forget their modern biases and let the music tell the story in its own right. It's a space opera, so treat it like such.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 22, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> You know what a flop is in sports?



No.



Kuromaku said:


> It's rather depressing just how unmemorable much of the new films' scores are compared to the previous trilogies'. You get the sense that while Williams might be past his prime, neither Abrams nor Johnson really took advantage of the real secret weapon of the franchise. Honestly, they should forget their modern biases and let the music tell the story in its own right. It's a space opera, so treat it like such.



Might be passed his prime?

Well, no shit... the guy is like 87 years old, it's amazing that he can still compose at all.

The best score since the new wave began is probably "Rogue One". At the absolute least, the track that plays when Vader wrecks havoc was pretty awesome. 

I remember liking the bgm when Rey first meets Luke in TFA -- and Luke's death had a pretty moving theme, but I remember thinking they seemed like variations of the classics.

When it comes to the music for the prequels, I actually thought Lucas often sabotaged Williams' work, because the pacing was so frenetic that it made it difficult to pay attention to the score. With that said,"Duel of the Fates" was an amazing track and when it started playing when Darth Maul drew his light saber -- I personally feel that is the main reason why people remember that fight fondly; as the choreography is more silly than cool. But it indeed the perfect marriage of visual and music. 

"Attack of the Clones" and especially "Revenge of the Sith", for all their flaws, were better paced and allowed Williams' music to stand out and grab our attention. The 'Yoda Vs Palpatine'/Anakin Vs Obi Wan' background music was awesome. I also loved when Anakin massacres the Trade Federation.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> No.


Is this a joke?


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I love how 2 years later you're still whining about it.


I love how youthink two years is long or some shit and are acting as if a trilogy still coming out should not be criticized as if there is a limit to it we should not be allowed to pass. Especially find it hilarious how you ignore all the shit Disney and Lucasfilm do that only aggravate the situation and give us more reason to continue in our complaints. Maybe you should just get off the internet entirely if you can't handle having your precious fictional movies shitted on all the time, which is hilarious in context of how you act as if we are the ones being too serious.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I love how you ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) think two years is long or some shit and are acting as if a trilogy still coming out should not be criticized as if there is a limit to it we should not be allowed to pass. Especially find it hilarious how you ignore all the shit Disney and Lucasfilm do that only aggravate the situation and give us more reason to continue in our complaints. Maybe you should just fuck off the internet entirely if you can't handle having your precious fictional movies shitted on all the time, which is hilarious in context of how you act as if we are the ones being too serious.



lol, I criticize Disney all the time. I even criticize these specific movies... like just in the last few pages. If you're going to try to take shots, at least try to aim where it might do some damage. 

I'm just saying find some new material. If these movies/ the company that churns them out are the dumpsterfires you make them out to be, surely you can contribute something fresh. Or is being the token edgelord the only thing you bring to the table?


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> lol, I criticize Disney all the time. I even criticize these specific movies... like just in the last few pages. If you're going to try to take shots, at least try to aim where it might do some damage.


Bitch please you spent the last page having taking pot shots at me and that Kansas guy over us shit-talking the film and calling out Gesy for his idiotic argument over how Poe "developed" in TLJ. If you "criticize" the Disney films it sure as hell is almost nothing but strained and held back.


MartialHorror said:


> I'm just saying find some new material.


One, what the hell kind of obligation are we supposed to held to in "making new material"? If shit stinks years later we have every right to call it out as much as we want. Two, did you just forget we made our criticism in response to Gesy's argument? because you act as if we just went and said this shit out of nowhere. Earth to Martial, if you are gonna post stupid shit it's only natural people are going to call it out.


MartialHorror said:


> If these movies/ the company that churns them out are the dumpsterfires you make them out to be, surely you can contribute something fresh. Or is being the token edgelord the only thing you bring to the table?


And what is so unfresh about saying Poe did not developed? I sure as hell never remember even arguing about that shit myself in the past, you sure you ain't just slapping a label on shit without any serious reasoning for it? Oh and "edgelord" You don't even know what the fuck that word is supposed to mean do you?


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## MartialHorror (Apr 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Bitch please you spent the last page having taking pot shots at me and that Kansas guy over us shit-talking the film and calling out Gesy for his idiotic argument over how Poe "developed" in TLJ. If you "criticize" the Disney films it sure as hell is almost nothing but strained and held back.
> 
> One, what the hell kind of obligation are we supposed to held to in "making new material"? If shit stinks years later we have every right to call it out as much as we want. Two, did you just forget we made our criticism in response to Gesy's argument? because you act as if we just went and said this shit out of nowhere. Earth to retard Martial, if you are gonna post stupid shit it's only natural people are going to call it out.
> 
> And what is so unfresh about saying Poe did not developed? I sure as hell never remember even arguing about that shit myself in the past, you sure you ain't just slapping a label on shit without any serious reasoning for it? Oh and "edgelord" You don't even know what the fuck that word is supposed to mean do you?



- I take pot shots at Kansas pretty much every time I encounter him. I grew tired of not having a clue what he was talking about, so he now he makes the sandwiches. As for you, I thought the debate was... trite? I guess? The funny thing is, I'm a little closer to your side on the issue of Poe's development. I just like Gesy more. So why would I take shots at him? 

Is my criticism of Disney "held back"? I dunno, maybe. I just don't feel as strongly as you do. It takes a lot for movies to make me angry. I like to think watching all of Seagal's films and bingewatching the Puppet Master franchise has made me immune. 

- Your second point is fair, but if two people are having a stupid debate and one of you is cool, while the other throws around 'retard' and '^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)' like he's 11 years old, who's going to be the more entertaining one to take shots at? Of course -- if you are 11 years old, I'd happily apologize and bow out. 

- What is so unfresh about saying Poe "did not developed"? Fang did it first? And he did it better? I have no idea who you are, so I don't know what you've posted about in the past. But this argument has been done time and time again by people with more insight into film criticism, film production and grammar. I feel like for the first time in a year, there have been some fresh, new discussions surrounding Star Wars. I even more-or-less conceded to Fang in the last one. That was fun and enlightening, in spite of 'the loss'. But this? this is just boring.    

Here's the problem with your current topic. Poe did have a character arc; he did "developed". I don't even know why this is being contested. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean his development was cohesive or well written. So the discussion... if anything... should be whether his character made sense; whether it flowed naturally, etc. All Gesy seems to be saying is Poe's story was more relevant than Finn's and his "Development" is a major part of the narrative. if anything, you should agree with him because it makes the overall narrative seem flimsier. But instead, you have to fight for the sake of fighting.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> - I take pot shots at Kansas pretty much every time I encounter him. I grew tired of not having a clue what he was talking about, so he now he makes the sandwiches. As for you, I thought the debate was... trite? I guess? The funny thing is, I'm a little closer to your side on the issue of Poe's development. I just like Gesy more. So why would I take shots at him?


"I'm a little closer to your side on the issue of Poe's development"
"I thought the debate was... trite"
"I just like Gesy more"
You really are just making shit up as you go along. Going by this convoluted logic you should be thinking your pal is being trait as well but you are giving him a pass because of personal bias. 


MartialHorror said:


> Is my criticism of Disney "held back"? I dunno, maybe.


What the fuck kind of defense is this? "I don't know my own opinion" It's like your trying so hard to sound intelligent but you end up making yourself sound stupid in the process instead.


MartialHorror said:


> - Your second point is fair, but if two people are having a stupid debate and one of you is cool, while the other throws around 'retard' and '^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)' like he's 11 years old, who's going to be the more entertaining one to take shots at? Of course -- if you are 11 years old, I'd happily apologize and bow out.


"hur dur you must be 11 years old" Now your the one who using up old materials geezer, guess like most on this site you are the kind to self project your own failing on others. And the only thing stupid about the debate was Gesy clearly making shit up about Poe's development, which even you say you "were on our side" so really the only reason you are calling it stupid is because you just want to defend your pal despite him being the one who is unable to prove his point.


MartialHorror said:


> - What is so unfresh about saying Poe "did not developed"? Fang did it first? And he did it better?


Wow, this has to be the dumbest excuse I have seen yet. So now if one person says it, even though it was only really said around the same as others, it is old material that no one should be allowed to say as well? You really are just desperate to come up with an excuse to justify your pot shots but it is obvious you just want to do so out of butthurt over these films you keep saying you supposedly criticize. And thanks for proving you had no idea of me saying it in the past, just destroys your "get new materials" post even more now in context.


MartialHorror said:


> Here's the problem with your current topic. Poe did have a character arc; he did "developed". I don't even know why this is being contested. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean his development was cohesive or well written. So the discussion... if anything... should be whether his character made sense; whether it flowed naturally, etc. All Gesy seems to be saying is Poe's story was more relevant than Finn's and his "Development" is a major part of the narrative. if anything, you should agree with him because it makes the overall narrative seem flimsier. But instead, you have to fight for the sake of fighting.


And here you just contradict everything else you have been saying prior. So much for "I'm a little closer to your side on the issue of Poe's development" it was a bullshit excuse from the start.
The point we were arguing is that Poe's so called development was nonexistent and not even supported by the movie when characters like Rose go against it in the opposite direction. Hell it was not backed up by Finn's story line, it was not backed up by Rey's story line, it was not backed up anywhere else so the "major part of the movie' is itself false. Here you are acting if it was our fault for disagreeing with him and even thinking we should agree, when as the debate went on it was Gesy who failed to apply his points and was the one trying so hard to debate it without any reason.

If you hate debating this so much you have only yourself to blame for continuing it since you are the only one making yourself continue. Don't like it? than just log off and leave.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> - I take pot shots at Kansas pretty much every time I encounter him. I grew tired of not having a clue what he was talking about, so he now he makes the sandwiches. As for you, I thought the debate was... trite? I guess? The funny thing is, I'm a little closer to your side on the issue of Poe's development. I just like Gesy more. So why would I take shots at him?


Every timed you go against m e it's a struggle sandwich for you.



MartialHorror said:


> Is my criticism of Disney "held back"? I dunno, maybe. I just don't feel as strongly as you do. It takes a lot for movies to make me angry. I like to think watching all of Seagal's films and bingewatching the Puppet Master franchise has made me immune.


i bet most Segal movies have a clearer structure and better scripts than TLJ.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "I'm a little closer to your side on the issue of Poe's development"
> "I thought the debate was... trite"
> "I just like Gesy more"
> You really are just making shit up as you go along. Going by this convoluted logic you should be thinking your pal is being trait as well but you are giving him a pass because of personal bias.
> ...



How are you confused? I like Gesy, I think you're a douche. I think the debate is stupid because it's been done before, I simply agree Poe is poorly developed. Disney is not above criticism, I just don't obsess over it like you do. And all you do anyway is reheat Fang's leftovers, so you contribute little-to-nothing to the discussion.

And do you not understand what character development is? It's a character's internal journey from "A" (impulsive, hot headed) to "B" (showing restraint, knowing when to retreat). So for example, if you have a character named NostalgiaFan and he acts like an immature, petulant child. But then something in his life occurs and he mellows out, learning to behave like a man, that would be character development. If Finn's and Rose's character arcs are at odds with Poe's, then maybe it's just bad writing. Character development can be poorly written, but it is still character development.

If you don't understand this, then your opinion amounts to little, as you don't know how storytelling works. I only agree with you on Poe's development not really being earned... and really, it's more Fang I'm agreeing with because I'm sure you're capable of mounting your own arguments.



Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Every timed you go against m e it's a struggle sandwich for you.
> 
> i bet most Segal movies have a clearer structure and better scripts than TLJ.



You should watch them. I dare you. You haven't experienced cinema until you've seen overweight, old, lethargic and bored Steven Seagal... in a sex scene...


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> You should watch them. I dare you. You haven't experienced cinema until you've seen overweight, old, lethargic and bored Steven Seagal... in a sex scene...


i watched some, they are not about how everyone can be a Segal, class war and other high minded horseshit.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> i watched some, they are not about how everyone can be a Segal, class war and other high minded horseshit.



No, but that sounds a lot more interesting than they actually are. 

Everyone... can be an overweight, lethargic -- wait, this actually just sounds like America. Are you really suggesting that any movie about 'class war', etc. is inherently bad? Have you seen "Snowpiercer"? "Gosford Park"? "High Rise"? "Sorry to Bother you"? "They Live"? "Metropolis"? "District 9"? "Society"? "Caddyshack"? "Elysium" is often hated, but it's mostly considered to be OK and "The Purge" is also about such things... even if I'm not crazy about them.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> No, but that sounds a lot more interesting than they actually are.
> 
> Everyone... can be an overweight, lethargic -- wait, this actually just sounds like America. Are you really suggesting that any movie about 'class war', etc. is inherently bad? Have you seen "Snowpiercer"? "Gosford Park"? "High Rise"? "Sorry to Bother you"? "They Live"? "Metropolis"? "District 9"? "Society"? "Caddyshack"? "Elysium" is often hated, but it's mostly considered to be OK and "The Purge" is also about such things... even if I'm not crazy about them.


So, they got better scripts and are more coherent. Thanks for the admission.

I very clearly did not say that Captain Strawman.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> So, they got better scripts and are more coherent. Thanks for the admission.
> 
> I very clearly did not say that Captain Strawman.



How else am I supposed to read this?



Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> i watched some, they are not about how everyone can be a Segal, class war and other high minded horseshit.



You watched someone, but use the fact that they aren't about 'class war' as to why they're better. This is why I don't like debating with you, Kansas. Your posts are so incoherent that they are not meant to be read at face value -- apparently. This is why you're my sandwich boy.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> How else am I supposed to read this?
> 
> 
> 
> You watched someone, but use the fact that they aren't about 'class war' as to why they're better. This is why I don't like debating with you, Kansas. Your posts are so incoherent that they are not meant to be read at face value -- apparently. This is why you're my sandwich boy.


With nuance, trough normal and not culture war lens...

Action movies + class war means fuckup this decade with some exceptions.

How does your ownage sandwich taste?


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> With nuance, trough normal and not culture war lens...
> 
> Action movies + class war means fuckup this decade with some exceptions.
> 
> How does your ownage sandwich taste?



Yeah, that's totally different from what you said... I think... Once again, your posts are not what I would describe as 'coherent'. Maybe that's your strategy.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, that's totally different from what you said... I think... Once again, your posts are not what I would describe as 'coherent'. Maybe that's your strategy.


You think or you know?

Why didn't Nostalgiafan call me out as incoherent in this thread?

Maybe being a flopper is your strategy?


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> You think or you know?
> 
> Why didn't Nostalgiafan call me out as incoherent in this thread?
> 
> Maybe being a flopper is your strategy?



I've called out ya'll for tolerating the ugly, stupid and toxic side of this fandom before. If you posted something along the lines of "I just sent a death threat to Kathleen Kennedy. I hope she dies for what she did to Star Wars", you'd get less outrage from your fellow detractors than if you said anything good about her. So he's not going to give a shit unless you post something that pisses him off. 

And don't use Nostalgiafan as your lifeline. He's hardly an authority on coherent posting, unless "did not developed" is some sort of internet lingo I'm not aware of.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I've called out ya'll for tolerating the ugly, stupid and toxic side of this fandom before. If you posted something along the lines of "I just sent a death threat to Kathleen Kennedy. I hope she dies for what she did to Star Wars", you'd get less outrage from your fellow detractors than if you said anything good about her. So he's not going to give a shit unless you post something that pisses him off.
> 
> And don't use Nostalgiafan as your lifeline. He's hardly an authority on coherent posting, unless "did not developed" is some sort of internet lingo I'm not aware of.


Every fandom will have some weirdos if it's big enough...
We have the rule of law for people who take it really far.
What does not tolerating it look like? Hardcore digital slacktivism?

He would know i would not post something like that and be serious.

And why are you an authority on coherent thinking and posting?


----------



## Mider T (Apr 23, 2019)

Why are you calling Kamal, Kansas?


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Every fandom will have some weirdos if it's big enough...
> We have the rule of law for people who take it really far.
> What does not tolerating it look like? Hardcore digital slacktivism?
> 
> ...



I'd call out anyone for their shit, whether I agree with them on something or not, whether it's movies, politics... or anything. Stupidity comes in all forms, regardless of what 'side they're on' and letting it spread will just undermine the valid points. So 

I have to give you some credit though. Every time I tell myself I'm done playing with you, you somehow rope me back in to these never-ending, substanceless arguments. 

So for now, you shall return to just being the manslave. 



Mider T said:


> Why are you calling Kamal, Kansas?



Cause he goes by that name now and I imagine someone might get confused if I continue referring to him as such.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 23, 2019)

@MartialHorror are you a masochist ?


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> @MartialHorror are you a masochist ?



I came to that conclusion when I binge watched the Puppet Master franchise. It started off bad; grew worse; grew unwatchable; yet I watched all... 13 movies? 15 movies? I don't remember the number, but I suffered greatly and I realized... I have to test my endurance. I must test my sanity. 

Sometimes, I think that's just how I am. Or maybe on some level, I'd love for Kansas to wisen up. We actually share some similar tastes in film, outside of Star Wars. But he praises "Harakiri" as a great movie -- which is cool -- and yet whines about politics in film, even though harakiri is like one of the most politically motivated "samurai" films ever made. He then totally changes his argument and acts like you're the idiot for not being able to decipher his mess of a post.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Cause he goes by that name now and I imagine someone might get confused if I continue referring to him as such.


Everyone knows him by Kamal.


----------



## Mabel Gleeful (Apr 23, 2019)

For those who complain about the casino sequence's purported socialism:


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 23, 2019)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> For those who complain about the casino sequence's purported socialism:




That's a pretty shitty comic


----------



## reiatsuflow (Apr 23, 2019)

It's probably true that star wars always had liberal politics. George lucas was a bearded hippie in college who got into the whole marxism movement, protested the draft and based the galactic empire on america in vietnam. He even dropped a few obvious dialogue and visual parallels in both the OT and PT.

In fact the most george lucasian moment in last jedi is probably saving a bunch of cute animals.

I don't like it either, but


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Apr 23, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> That's a pretty shitty comic


Cultureless swine!


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> How are you confused? I like Gesy, I think you're a douche.


Than quit acting all surprised when I call you out as one for taking pot shots at me while acting as if you are some "neutral force" when you are clearly just aiding your pal here.


MartialHorror said:


> I think the debate is stupid because it's been done before, I simply agree Poe is poorly developed. Disney is not above criticism, I just don't obsess over it like you do. And all you do anyway is reheat Fang's leftovers, so you contribute little-to-nothing to the discussion.


"done before"
"obsess"
 When you not only did failed to provide anything that proved this discussion was done before in the past, you actually proved the opposite by admitting you did not even know when the fuck I ever repeated it. Hell the fact you still do nothing but mention Fang as if he was the only other one arguing this only goes to how you are the one obsessed here since you always mentioned Fang in the past even when he is was not posting there. You also keep forgetting reiatsuflow was the first one to start bringing this up in this thread and get this, I was actually the second before Fang came along. So much for your "reheat Fang's leftovers" you can't even keep your memories consistent.

And again, if you hate this little debate of ours than why the hell are you even bothering with it at all? you could just fuck off and neither of us would care but you continue going at it anyway which only tells me that's a lie and you are just trying to defend your hurt pride. Hell if I remember I think you said this same shit before in another thread which if true would only show me you are the one repeating the same lines here asshole.


MartialHorror said:


> And do you not understand what character development is?


More than you, at least what GOOD character development is. Poe's "development" amounted to nothing but one scene that does nothing but waste time and is left behind as the movie completely shit on it's own message with another character making it all worthless in the end. His personalty and everything remains unchanged so you really are stretching it if you can even call this "character development".


MartialHorror said:


> So for example, if you have a character named NostalgiaFan and he acts like an immature, petulant child. But then something in his life occurs and he mellows out, learning to behave like a man, that would be character development.


Cute, so I guess your character, MartialHorror, would be a pretentious, holler than thou, cowardly shithead who pompously proclaims his intellect and greatness over the masses and their acts in life and the futility of them while than hypocritical engaging with it as if it does no contradict his previous assertions while than degrading to a "no u" tier argument with said masses over the slightest comeback? Also a creepy stalker like obsession over a certain character who called him out on his shit years ago with which his wounded ego has never recovered from?

Sounds about right.


MartialHorror said:


> If Finn's and Rose's character arcs are at odds with Poe's, then maybe it's just bad writing. Character development can be poorly written, but it is still character development.


Name one thing that is any different about Poe and how he acts. If all you can name is one tiny scene that does not even follow said development, don't waste my time. All he does is call a retreat after wasting many more lives that would have been better off not shoved there to being with since not only do they achieve nothing but we get zero indication that Poe really learned anything since that situation results in the same aftermath as before with the resistance even more depleted of pilots. And you do not have your movie beat a message into one of your protagonist's heads while than immediately going right against it in a another scene and expect it to count fine. That is not how proper development works at all.


MartialHorror said:


> If you don't understand this, then your opinion amounts to little, as you don't know how storytelling works. I only agree with you on Poe's development not really being earned... and really, it's more Fang I'm agreeing with because I'm sure you're capable of mounting your own arguments.


I already laid out why it does not work. You are the one failing to understand and if anything, you have not earned to right to say anything about if my opinions amount to little when you yourself have brought nothing to the table, outside of make excuse to justify your snarky side remarks. What have you actually brought here that is new? "oh Poe had a weak character development" shit we already talked about? real original.  "oh nostalgia come up with something new" big talk from the guy who has done nothing but regurgitate the same shit as before. You are the one here who needs to come up with his own shit.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Than quit acting all surprised when I call you out as one for taking pot shots at me while acting as if you are some "neutral force" when you are clearly just aiding your pal here.
> 
> "done before"
> "obsess"
> ...



Oi, pay close attention. I said the argument has been done to death. I didn't say you specifically did it to death, but I've been around for the last 2 years and pretty much everyone has already done it -- making your current, less observant or insightful version redundant. 

You are right to question why I'm even bothering... I don't have a good answer for that, other than me being a glutton for this type of shit. 

As for the rest, Poe showcased 'development' the moment he ordered the retreat. Once again, that doesn't make it profound or well written, just him reaching "B" when he started at "A". If you don't get that, then we might as well be speaking different languages. 

And have I brought anything new to this debate? No, as I said... the debate is trite. It's still. Everything that can be explored within it has already been explored, dissected and probably is the subject is an arsenal of video essays. I can't change that, but I'm not really the one pushing this argument.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Oi, pay close attention. I said the argument has been done to death. I didn't say you specifically did it to death, but I've been around for the last 2 years and pretty much everyone has already done it -- making your current, less observant or insightful version redundant.


Save the fact you have proven nothing about said argument being done to death anyway. Most of the shit said about TLJ was about Luke's character butchering, Rey being a mary sue, Snoke being a lame villain, the massive retcons and overuse of humor, Holdo being a shit captain, and Finn and Rose's story line being pointless. Poe having no development in compassion is barely even talked about, not like it matters since there is nothing that says we can't complain about the same shit yeas later, especially in a argument with another.


MartialHorror said:


> You are right to question why I'm even bothering... I don't have a good answer for that, other than me being a glutton for this type of shit.


"hurt pride" Called it.


MartialHorror said:


> As for the rest, Poe showcased 'development' the moment he ordered the retreat. Once again, that doesn't make it profound or well written, just him reaching "B" when he started at "A". If you don't get that, then we might as well be speaking different languages.


Bitch please that is exactly what I said was practically nothing. Poe never seemed like the kind of guy to never call a retreat in the first place. He told BB-8 to do so in TFA, he retreated anyway when they were escaping the First Order after taking out the dreadnought. Dude learned nothing new which is the whole point of character development Einstein.
A





MartialHorror said:


> nd have I brought anything new to this debate? No


All I needed to hear to prove my point.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Save the fact you have proven nothing about said argument being done to death anyway jackass. Most of the shit said about TLJ was about Luke's character butchering, Rey being a mary sue, Snoke being a lame villain, the massive retcons and overuse of humor, Holdo being a shit captain, and Finn and Rose's story line being pointless. Poe having no development in compassion is barely even talked about, not like it matters since there is nothing that says we can't complain about the same shit yeas later, especially in a argument with another.
> 
> "hurt pride" Called it.
> 
> ...



lol, I do love how you take quotes out of context to serve your narrative.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> lol, I do love how you take quotes out of context to serve your narrative.


lol, why do gotta be as thin as paper when it comes to getting your shitty arguments blown out.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> lol, why do gotta be as thin as paper when it comes to getting your shitty arguments blown out.



'why do gotta be as thin as paper'?


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> 'why do gotta be as thin as paper'?





MartialHorror said:


> And have I brought anything new to this debate? No.


At this rate you are just playing to lose.
Kappa


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 23, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> At this rate you are just playing to lose.
> Kappa



What? I can't draw water out of a barren land.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> What? I can't draw water out of a barren land.


Why Water when you are fine with just sticking your head in the sand itself?


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 24, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Why Water when you are fine with just sticking your head in the sand itself?



... Because I get thirsty?


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> ... Because I get thirsty?


Thirsty for eating dirt, which explains what comes out of your mouth often.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 24, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Thirsty for eating dirt, which explains what comes out of your mouth often.



Thirsty for... eating?


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Apr 24, 2019)

You can always count on Star Wars threads to give you a nice chuckle here and there..or a headache depending on your mood.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I'd call out anyone for their shit, whether I agree with them on something or not, whether it's movies, politics... or anything. Stupidity comes in all forms, regardless of what 'side they're on' and letting it spread will just undermine the valid points. So
> 
> I have to give you some credit though. Every time I tell myself I'm done playing with you, you somehow rope me back in to these never-ending, substanceless arguments.
> 
> ...


No, you stopped calling me out after figuring out that i was made of tougher stuff.

From bottom to top, post 2





Who the fuckl are you to be such a universal arbiter.

Sorry, you can't play in my league...

You cannot just walk away from confriontation for a long time and start talking trash.



MartialHorror said:


> I came to that conclusion when I binge watched the Puppet Master franchise. It started off bad; grew worse; grew unwatchable; yet I watched all... 13 movies? 15 movies? I don't remember the number, but I suffered greatly and I realized... I have to test my endurance. I must test my sanity.
> 
> Sometimes, I think that's just how I am. Or maybe on some level, I'd love for Kansas to wisen up. We actually share some similar tastes in film, outside of Star Wars. But he praises "Harakiri" as a great movie -- which is cool -- and yet whines about politics in film, even though harakiri is like one of the most politically motivated "samurai" films ever made. He then totally changes his argument and acts like you're the idiot for not being able to decipher his mess of a post.



Where is the partisan US politics in Harakiri?

Where did i say i don't want any politics in any movie?



Mabel Gleeful said:


> For those who complain about the casino sequence's purported socialism:



Anti colinialism = American consensus say cool.

Civil Rights struggle of MLK = settled, MLK claimed as a hero by almost literally everyone.

So what is this bitchass woke politics that will age badly doing in my Star Wars?



reiatsuflow said:


> It's probably true that star wars always had liberal politics. George lucas was a bearded hippie in college who got into the whole marxism movement, protested the draft and based the galactic empire on america in vietnam. He even dropped a few obvious dialogue and visual parallels in both the OT and PT.
> 
> In fact the most george lucasian moment in last jedi is probably saving a bunch of cute animals.
> 
> I don't like it either, but



fuck George, he was an incompetent manager. His politics did not make Star Wars work so it can be discarded.


----------



## Mabel Gleeful (Apr 24, 2019)

This is the kind of weird things Kansas posts:
Greatest steppe warrior in all of Kdrama


This isn't even trolling. The guy is just really weird. Best to just ignore him.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 24, 2019)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> This is the kind of weird things Kansas posts:
> Greatest steppe warrior in all of Kdrama
> 
> 
> This isn't even trolling. The guy is just really weird. Best to just ignore him.


That post was weird...
By NF standards...
Sure...


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> You can always count on Star Wars threads to give you a nice chuckle here and there..or a headache depending on your mood.



Yup...

NostalgiaFan, if you want the last word, go for it. I'm done.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yup...
> 
> NostalgiaFan, if you want the last word, go for it. I'm done.


Can;t finish the beef you started as usual.

Where is your big mouth mutherfucker?

i don't hesitate to go 1 on 3.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 24, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Can;t finish the beef you started as usual.
> 
> Where is your big mouth mutherfucker?
> 
> i don't hesitate to go 1 on 3.



The only language I know is English and I don't have my 'Kamal translator' on me. Sorry.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> The only language I know is English and I don't have my 'Kamal translator' on me. Sorry.


You feel me. That is why you are running.



~Gesy~ said:


> You can always count on Star Wars threads to give you a nice chuckle here and there..or a headache depending on your mood.


What is your position on Disney SW?

You can get a whopping also.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 24, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> You feel me. That is why you are running.



I admire your positive attitude. If you tell yourself something enough, then it becomes true. Keep trying, Kamal.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I admire your positive attitude. If you tell yourself something enough, then it becomes true. Keep trying, Kamal.


You ran before..


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 24, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> You ran before..



What am I running from now?

Your posts are so devoid of substance that you give me little to respond to... and half of the time I have to request you to clarify your points because your posts are grammatically disastrous, wasting more time than I'm willing to spend.

Every time we get into some sort of debate, it always follows the same cycle.

-- You make a point; I am confused as to WTF you're talking about.
-- You do a reprisal of your point, this time making it a little clearer.
-- You distort your original point, because you've been backed into a corner.
-- I grow bored of trying to make sense of you and you declare victory.

It's tedious.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> What am I running from now?
> 
> Your posts are so devoid of substance that you give me little to respond to... and half of the time I have to request you to clarify your points because your posts are grammatically disastrous, wasting more time than I'm willing to spend.
> 
> ...


Being a close minded prog bigot and facing me is not an advantage...


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## MartialHorror (Apr 24, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Being a close minded prog bigot and facing me is not an advantage...



Aaaand once again, I'm struggling to even decipher this. Keep talking or don't; I'll only respond if you say anything of value...or at least something that amuses me. That's the best you're going to get.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Aaaand once again, I'm struggling to even decipher this. Keep talking or don't; I'll only respond if you say anything of value...or at least something that amuses me. That's the best you're going to get.


You think someone is paying me to post...?

Why do you wanna look special?


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## MartialHorror (Apr 24, 2019)

On to more relevant things,

I actually beat an 8-"player" standard game in Galactic Battlegrounds for the first time without the use of Ewoks!!! YAY!


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yup...
> 
> NostalgiaFan, if you want the last word, go for it. I'm done.


>he says right after responding several more times to the thread
As inconsistent as DBS power levels.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 24, 2019)

Also hilarious seeing Mabel pretend they are in any position to talk about weird opinions when they have spouted stupid shit like "pro imperialism Black Panther" and "capitalism caused both world wars"


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 26, 2019)

*‘Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker’ Teaser Clocked 111M Views In First 24 Hours; More Viral Than ‘Last Jedi’ & ‘Force Awakens’*


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 26, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> *‘Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker’ Teaser Clocked 111M Views In First 24 Hours; More Viral Than ‘Last Jedi’ & ‘Force Awakens’*


When you fuck up that bad...

People want to see the trainwreck.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 26, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> When you fuck up that bad...
> 
> People want to see the trainwreck.


so the trainwreck will make more than TLJ


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 26, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> so the trainwreck will make more than TLJ


You make it sound like it would be an accomplishment.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 26, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> You make it sound like it would be an accomplishment.


for the House of Mouse

they will buy out some other media company with the money


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 26, 2019)

I'm just pretending disney created bot farms to artificially jack up trailer numbers, making rise of skywalker appear more successful.

Nice try, reality.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 26, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> for the House of Mouse
> 
> they will buy out some other media company with the money


Not a big one the way they keep fucking up.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 26, 2019)

Not really shocking. 
Considering how the second movie torpedo'd all the established plot setups, even I'm curious wth they will do to make the third have any logical conclusion.
The only thing that could make sense to me given the limited timeframe of a single movie is a dark ending with emperor Kylo ruling.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Apr 26, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> emperor Kylo ruling.



All the charismatic EU baddies are gonna cry...

They are so much more threattenning...


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## Mider T (Apr 26, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> I'm just pretending disney created bot farms to artificially jack up trailer numbers, making rise of skywalker appear more successful.
> 
> Nice try, reality.


"Reality is often disappointing"


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 26, 2019)

Yeah bullshit. The trailer pulled far less on sites like youtube than any of the previous main films in the first day and now suddenly out of nowhere this one random article from some some no name news site is trying to gauge that it is "more viral than Last Jedi and Force Awakens" which is pure nonsense. And now shills are trying to push this horseshit as if it means it is going to make more than even TFA, get the fuck out of here with that shit.



Besides that it ignores that people who watch trailers don't suddenly translate to paying customers and most were most likely taken by the fact they heard about Palps being alive than anything else to do with the film itself.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 5, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 5, 2019)

Of course the male is the bottom.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 5, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Of course the male is the bottom.


And of course they think anyone but Reylo fans give a shit about their fight when there is no excitement or anticipation for anything as we already saw her win against him.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 5, 2019)

to me Reylo is more interesting than Jon-Daenerys from GoT


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## NostalgiaFan (May 5, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> to me Reylo is more interesting than Jon-Daenerys from GoT


That's like picking which pile of shit tastes better.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 5, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> to me Reylo is more interesting than Jon-Daenerys from GoT



They are both low points for their franchises.


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## Pilaf (May 5, 2019)

Wake me up if Palpatine kills all the new characters. That'll restore my Star Wars boner.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 5, 2019)

Sadly I'd believe that Rey is in love with this psycho before believing Dany Snow.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 5, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Sadly I'd believe that Rey is in love with this psycho before believing Dany Snow.


She could get way better.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 5, 2019)




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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 5, 2019)

Needs better facial symmetry.


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## Catalyst75 (May 7, 2019)

The next Star Wars movies will be out in 2022, 2024, and 2026.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (May 7, 2019)

So much for the big pause, unless these days three years is considered a long time.


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## James Bond (May 7, 2019)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> So much for the big pause, unless these days three years is considered a long time.


In a world where we have on demand anything over a year is a long time.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 7, 2019)

Disney is never gonna learn no matter how many SW flicks they make that will under perform and fail


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## MartialHorror (May 7, 2019)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> So much for the big pause, unless these days three years is considered a long time.



Lol, for franchise's, these days 3 years seems like forever.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Disney is never gonna learn no matter how many SW flicks they make that will under perform and fail


Don't worry.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 8, 2019)

Rian's trilogy going to be flames

Fuck D&D tho lmao


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## Mider T (May 8, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> The next Star Wars movies will be out in 2022, 2024, and 2026.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 8, 2019)

let's hear some box office predictions for this

Throwing out $1.4-$1.5 billion


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## Son Of Man (May 8, 2019)

1.9 billion


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## Mob (May 8, 2019)

Hopefully it bombs


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## ~Gesy~ (May 8, 2019)

I saw crowd excitement when the trailers showed in theater.

It won't come close to bombing lol


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2019)

1.5+B is possible IMO


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## MartialHorror (May 8, 2019)

Yeah I don't see it bombing, although I don't see it really reaching "TFA" either.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 8, 2019)

Mob said:


> Hopefully it bombs


I don't caRE, JUST END THIS FUCKIGN TRILoGY ALREAY.


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## Karma (May 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah I don't see it bombing,

Reactions: Like 2


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## NostalgiaFan (May 8, 2019)

>people honestly expecting this to even reach TLJ numbers

Absolute delusion.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> >people honestly expecting this to even reach TLJ numbers
> 
> Absolute delusion.


heres the Box Office "expert" who proved himself in the Captain Marvel thread

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (May 8, 2019)

How much did tlj make


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## NostalgiaFan (May 8, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> heres the Box Office "expert" who proved himself in the Captain Marvel thread


"hur durr muh captain murhval" You really let that one get to your head didn't you? In case you forgot, unlike the MCU star wars has been doing terribly in terms of getting across to audiences, what with TLJ having the biggest second week drop in the franchise's history and making almost a billion less than TFA, Solo bombing hard, audience reactions being awful lately with TLJ having possibly the worst since AOTC, merchandise of all kinds flopping to the point it had an effect on ToysRus going down, etc.

You have to be delusional to ignore all that and think it is somehow going to make Avengers level money when everything that those films had going for them is completely missing in NuWars. But keep thinking it's all fine just because one flick that does not even have anything to do with SW is somehow enough to say it is all healed.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 8, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> How much did tlj make


Only 1.3 bill

TFA by comparison made 2 bill


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## MartialHorror (May 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "hur durr muh captain murhval" You really let that one get to your head didn't you fluttershit? In case you forgot, unlike the MCU star wars has been doing terribly in terms of getting across to audiences, what with TLJ having the biggest second week drop in the franchise's history and making almost a billion less than TFA, Solo bombing hard, audience reactions being awful lately with TLJ having possibly the worst since AOTC, merchandise of all kinds flopping to the point it had an effect on ToysRus going down, etc.
> 
> You have to be delusional to ignore all that and think it is somehow going to make Avengers level money when everything that those films had going for them is completely missing in NuWars. But keep thinking it's all fine just because one flick that does not even have anything to do with SW is somehow enough to say it is all healed.



So why were you wrong about "Captain Marvel"?


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2019)

"Avengers level of money" these days is 2-3B 

obviously it wont make that, ever


~1.5B is not impossible though IMO, its the end of the trilogy and the end of the 9-movies story too, ppl_ could_ show up for that



but please, I want to hear more of your BO predictions, dont ever stop doing them


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## NostalgiaFan (May 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> So why were you wrong about "Captain Marvel"?


Simple, underestimated the hype for a movie leading up to Endgame. But considering how mixed the reception was and how Carol seemed to be held back in Endgame to the point of barely even being a side character it makes me think she is not as liked as Marvel was hoping for her to be in spite of the effort went into her.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 8, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> How much did tlj make


1.3


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## MartialHorror (May 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Simple, underestimated the hype for a movie leading up to Endgame. But considering how mixed the reception was and how Carol seemed to be held back in Endgame to the point of barely even being a side character it makes me think she is not as liked as Marvel was hoping for her to be in spite of the effort went into her.



Eh?

Wasn't "Endgame" filmed before "Captain Marvel"? And if anything, I thought "Endgame" gave her the most bad-ass moments and (deceptively) pushed her front and center during the marketing campaign (similar to how "Infinity War" used Black Panther).

Anyway, these box office predictions are pointless because everyone is going to predict based on how they feel about the product... and when they're proven wrong -- regardless of the side -- they'll revise their argument to save face.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2019)

Im quite certain it wont make much less than TLJ at least

guess we'll see 




@ATastyMuffin @Mider T @mr_shadow  gentlemen, what are your BO predictions for Rise of Skywalker ?


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2019)

Sheev will also give RoS a bit of a boost


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## MartialHorror (May 8, 2019)

It will all depend on marketing and how much hype it can build. What people tend to overlook about "The Last Jedi" was that people were becoming skeptics based on the first trailer (which many viewed underwhelming). Also, "Rogue One" was already showing that "The Force Awakens" money wasn't going to be as easy as thought. 

I don't see Episode 9 doing less than a billion, but I don't see it doing more than 1.5 billion... but who the f@ck knows? It's too early to really predict.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 8, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> "Avengers level of money" these days is 2-3B


So I see your memory is bad since you forgot how much money the original Avengers made which I was obviously speaking of if you were not dense.


Shiba D. Inu said:


> ~1.5B is not impossible though IMO, its the end of the trilogy and the end of the 9-movies story too, ppl_ could_ show up for that


Except people have nothing to look forward to. The characters have not even had real character arcs or have just kept repeating them while the story has been fucked thanks to TLJ screwing things out of order ruining much of the hype people already had and all the characters people were actually looking forward to like Han and Luke are gone or their actors like Leia's are dead and gone.

What the hell do you expect to actually bring people disappointed from the TLJ or fallen out from TFA to come see? Old dried up Billy Dee Williams playing one of the lesser known SW characters? Palpatine who is for all likely hood only going to have what is essentially a cameo role at best? Fucking Kylo Ren?

This film only has hype from people who still drink the Disney Kool-aid. Hell with how Jumanji actually caused TLJ to lose some numbers the fact that it's sequel is coming out around the same time this year only further dampens the idea Ep 9 is going to reach into 1.5 bill.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Eh?
> 
> Wasn't "Endgame" filmed before "Captain Marvel"? And if anything, I thought "Endgame" gave her the most bad-ass moments and (deceptively) pushed her front and center during the marketing campaign (similar to how "Infinity War" used Black Panther).


Being filmed before has nothing to do with the hype since more people were looking forward to Endgame anyway so I don't even know what that is supposed to matter in here, and "most bad ass moments' say that to the people more hyped over what Tony, Peter, Banner, and others did despite how much they tried to sell her powers off as better than others. hell because most people are laughing at her face she made right before Thanos energy punched her face with the Power Stone 

She had almost no major role in the movie after picking up Tony and was absent of most of the runtime compared to almost every other major character in the film. She clearly was given far less time than expected.


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## MartialHorror (May 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Being filmed before has nothing to do with the hype since more people were looking forward to Endgame anyway so I don't even know what that is supposed to matter in here, and "most bad ass moments' say that to the people more hyped over what Tony, Peter, Banner, and others did despite how much they tried to sell her powers off as better than others. hell because most people are laughing at her face she made right before Thanos energy punched her face with the Power Stone
> 
> She had almost no major role in the movie after picking up Tony and was absent of most of the runtime compared to almost every other major character in the film. She clearly was given far less time than expected.



You're kind of making stuff up, because it sounds like the size of her role was already determined before "Captain Marvel" even entered production (which is why I brought it up). If she was present throughout the movie, then the heroes would've easily won. Alternatively, her reduced role might've been because she didn't have as much time to film "Endgame" before doing "Captain Marvel", yet you settle on "people just didn't like her"? 

The movie outright stopped to herald her arrival for the climax.

I don't want to talk too much about the MCU in a Star Wars thread, but this make any "prediction" you have a little harder to swallow, as you seem to just make up your own narrative based on your feelings towards the product in question.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> You're kind of making stuff up, because it sounds like the size of her role was already determined before "Captain Marvel" even entered production (which is why I brought it up).


Really because what you said here sounds about as made up as you are saying my words are. "her role was already determined" Scenes like the "go woman" scene felt almost completely out of now where and unconnected with the rest of the film as if they were taken in from an earlier draft of the story. And despite being hailed as the new face of the franchise she did not even have a single big talk with any of the other MCU leads or any real character moments in the film and could have just been taken out of the film after saving Tony and almost nothing would have changed.


MartialHorror said:


> If she was present throughout the movie, then the heroes would've easily won. Alternatively, her reduced role might've been because she didn't have as much time to film "Endgame" before doing "Captain Marvel", yet you settle on "people just didn't like her"?


"won easily" bullshit, that ignores the statement that Thanos even without the Stones is the most powerful being in the universe and would not have stomped her like he did with Thor and Tony. She only had an advantage of fighting a weakened Thanos already roughed up from Tony, Thor, Worthy cap, and Scarlet Witch. It would never have been easy.


MartialHorror said:


> The movie outright stopped to herald her arrival for the climax.


And she proceeds to do almost nothing after destroying the ship and gets beaten by Thanos only for Tony come in to save the day.


MartialHorror said:


> I don't want to talk too much about the MCU in a Star Wars thread, but this make any "prediction" you have a little harder to swallow, as you seem to just make up your own narrative based on your feelings towards the product in question.


Oh stick it. Your predictions are no less shallow what with your "the audience clapped" command that is nothing more than anecdotal evidence for why a film franchise that has been shown to be under performing should suddenly get a boost. 

If you don't want to talk about MCU anymore, than just leave it as is and stick to the current topic on hand.


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## Son Of Man (May 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Only 1.3 bill
> 
> TFA by comparison made 2 bill


Daaamn I thought tlj made more than that.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> So I see your memory is bad since you forgot how much money the original Avengers made which I was obviously speaking of if you were not dense.
> 
> Except people have nothing to look forward to. The characters have not even had real character arcs or have just kept repeating them while the story has been fucked thanks to TLJ screwing things out of order ruining much of the hype people already had and all the characters people were actually looking forward to like Han and Luke are gone or their actors like Leia's are dead and gone.
> 
> ...



How much do you think it's going to make


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## NostalgiaFan (May 8, 2019)

SonOfMan said:


> Daaamn I thought tlj made more than that.


It had the biggest second week drop of any SW movie due to negative reaction from fans, terrible overseas box office in places like China, and actually being hurt by competition from the goddamn Junamji film with The Rock which was out of nowhere and fucking hilarious.

Said film's sequel is coming out just a week before Ep 9's release


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## MartialHorror (May 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Really because what you said here sounds about as made up as you are saying my words are. "her role was already determined" Scenes like the "go woman" scene felt almost completely out of now where and unconnected with the rest of the film as if they were taken in from an earlier draft of the story. And despite being hailed as the new face of the franchise she did not even have a single big talk with any of the other MCU leads or any real character moments in the film and could have just been taken out of the film after saving Tony and almost nothing would have changed.



Er, made up? Dude, look it up and try to ignore your own shitty review of the movie. "Endgame" was filmed first, so I highly doubt the re-wrote and re-shot the movie in... what? The 2 month difference between their release dates? Which isn't even including the fact the final cut had been apparently turned in at least by the beginning of April. Your argument makes no sense. 



> "won easily" bullshit, that ignores the statement that Thanos even without the Stones is the most powerful being in the universe and would not have stomped her like he did with Thor and Tony. She only had an advantage of fighting a weakened Thanos already roughed up from Tony, Thor, Worthy cap, and Scarlet Witch. It would never have been easy.
> And she proceeds to do almost nothing after destroying the ship and gets beaten by Thanos only for Tony come in to save the day.



lol, you're so desperately reaching... it's actually kind of adorable. I think it's big of you though that you acknowledge how Disney cares about its fanbase so much that it would downplay the presence of a billion dollar character -- something that has only been done twice without being some sort of ensemble piece -- just because that character had a "mixed" reception.

They truly are thinking about the fans, so "Star Wars" must be in good hands. lol. You're funny.



> Oh stick it. Your predictions are no less shallow what with your "the audience clapped" command that is nothing more than anecdotal evidence for why a film franchise that has been shown to be under performing should suddenly get a boost.
> 
> If you don't want to talk about MCU anymore, than just leave it as is and stick to the current topic on hand.



...Huh? Where in my post was I talking about audiences clapping? The difference between your predictions and my own is I'm not really trying to push my thoughts on the matter. I could be completely wrong. I even explained why predicting box office numbers this early is pointless. My willingness to acknowledge my predictions as shallow protects me from when I'm wrong, so I never have try to save face by f@cking claiming that a billion dollar character -- who was promoted heavily in the trailers AFTER "Captain Marvel" was released -- had their role revamped in a single month... Wait... didn't you also insinuate that the 'girl power' scene felt like it was taken from an early draft... suggesting that they increased her screen-time -- get your arguments straight before playing with me dude.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 9, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Simple, underestimated the hype for a movie leading up to Endgame. *But considering how mixed the reception was and how Carol seemed to be held back in Endgame to the point of barely even being a side character it makes me think she is not as liked as Marvel was hoping for her to be in spite of the effort went into her.*



actually missed this gem 

l o l

do you usually partake in discussions of topics you havent the faintest knowledge regarding or was this a one-off for you


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## MartialHorror (May 9, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> actually missed this gem
> 
> l o l
> 
> do you usually partake in discussions of topics you havent the faintest knowledge regarding or was this a one-off for you



I think he just impulsively reacted based off his disdain for the movie/character and the burn of being called out...

But yeah, the only thing he really brings to any discussion is his mastery of the douchepickle. Everything else is just nonsense or recycling other peoples arguments.


----------



## MShadows (May 9, 2019)

In all honesty, it would be for the better if this movie did even worse than TLJ so Disney gets the hint and stops screwing with this franchise. 

Disney does some good stuff, but they also do some bad stuff. The current trilogy falls into the latter. 

There were problems with TFA, but it was decent-ish. Then they changed directors (horrible mistake) and RJ came in and took such a huge dump on everything that Abrams is struggling to salvage whatever is left.

The people handling SW right now are incompetent. Changing to other storylines won’t fix anything, they need to fire or change some people first.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 9, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> actually missed this gem
> 
> l o l
> 
> do you usually partake in discussions of topics you havent the faintest knowledge regarding or was this a one-off for you


Sell me on NostalgiaFan being ignorant...



MShadows said:


> In all honesty, it would be for the better if this movie did even worse than TLJ so Disney gets the hint and stops screwing with this franchise.
> 
> Disney does some good stuff, but they also do some bad stuff. The current trilogy falls into the latter.
> 
> ...



Recently when it's bad it's politically motivated insanity.


----------



## MartialHorror (May 9, 2019)

I was going to comment on how stupidity attracts stupidity, but I've decided not to even bother and instead discuss why predicting box office results this early is pointless, stupid and is just an excuse to jerk yourself off and call it insight. I'm going to try to keep this neutral, with some points being in favor of box office success, others in favor of box office failure.

-- The crowd cheered during the trailer's debut at the Star Wars celebration convention: I personally suspect even a lot of detractors would probably get lost in the moment at some of these conventions, because it's not really about the trailer itself or episode 9; it's about the entire experience of the convention. People tend to be A LOT nicer towards movies when they're part of major events, which is why some showings at festival draws applause and acclaim... only to be released to middling/poor reviews when they actually come out. When you're the first experience something, whether it's a trailer or a movie, it feels much more special... So I don't think this will matter in the long run.

-- The declining merchandise: I think this is actually an interesting point, but I also feel like proponents of this argument tend to overlook at these new movies have been more geared towards adults, which is the big difference between the OT and ESPECIALLY the PT. Most adults don't collect toys, although this is arguably a separate failing from Disney, as maybe they should've pushed the Star Wars revival as a more kid friendly property.

-- The trailer didn't get as many views: It's always unwise to use social media to back up box office predictions, as it's unwieldy. Movies have failed despite going viral in the marketing campaign. Movies have succeeded despite seemingly little interest (or outright disdain) from social media.

-- "Solo" flopped: "Solo" had a much bigger uphill battle than Episode 9 did, as it was a project no one was interested in from the beginning, endured a difficult production that made headlines too often and got a middling reaction from both fans and critics. In essence, "Solo" had its own baggage that lead to its failure.

-- "The Last Jedi" damaged the brand: It's too early to say because franchise's have survived worse. "Aqua Man" had the misfortune of following "Justice League", yet still conquered at the box office. If Episode 9 bombs, I think this would be the reason, but I also think the haters blow up TLJ's reception to ridiculous extremes. Most ticket buyers are casual Star Wars fans at best, who seemed to like the movie more than the hardcore fans. But this is a point that I can't confidently back up. I could be wrong.

-- There are no more "hooks": "The Last Jedi" pretty much closed all of its storythreads, such as Rey's parentage and Snoke and Luke. I think this is a valid point from a quality perspective, but I also don't think will have much of an impact on the box office... admittedly because I don't think casual viewers have paid THAT much attention to the overarching story. Ultimately, I think the sudden emphasis on nostalgia (bringing back Landa, Palpatine) is their attempt to bring audiences in. It might be desperate, but it also might just work, as this will test the waters of how bankable nostalgia will be for this franchise.

-- The last of the trilogy: Many are assuming this will do better than "The Last Jedi" because it's the final chapter of this saga, but while this CAN help, it's no guarantee. "The Hunter Games" underperformed for its final chapter. While still very successful, "Fifty Shades Freed" had the weakest drawing of the three, despite being the conclusion.

So while guessing can be fun, it's pretty silly to take your own predictions so seriously, as there are never any guarantees as to how well a movie will perform... at least this early during the marketing campaign. Of course, this is coming from someone who's always jerking off and calling it insight, so take that as you will.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 9, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I was going to comment on how stupidity attracts stupidity


Good, you arer clearly not in  my league.


----------



## reiatsuflow (May 9, 2019)

I want to believe, nostalgiafan.

Here's something in nostalgia's favor though. People poopoo'd the last jedi's divisiveness as being russian bots and angry nerds, yet ep 9 is visibly trying to address those concerns with its title and cast/crew comments. They wouldn't do that unless the last jedi's divisiveness was legitimate.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 9, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> I want to believe, nostalgiafan.
> 
> Here's something in nostalgia's favor though. People poopoo'd the last jedi's divisiveness as being russian bots and angry nerds, yet ep 9 is visibly trying to address those concerns with its title and cast/crew comments. They wouldn't do that unless the last jedi's divisiveness was legitimate.


I mean the fact that the director is online acting like an absolute tard whenever people make even politely criticize his film should be a cause for concern on how badly the reaction to TLJ has had on the people working on the films.


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## Blocky (May 10, 2019)

I say it will make much as TLJ


It’s still a Star Wars film after all. Not a spin-off like Solo.


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## Fang (May 12, 2019)

I like how Rian is still never going to get his spin off trilogy and D&D are going to rape the KoTOR movies (if that's indeed the project they'll work on after turning seasons 7 and 8 of GoT into literal abortions of creative destruction) after Kathleen gives them the reigns.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 12, 2019)

neverending suffering for you, Fang


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## Fang (May 12, 2019)

>less than 20 million views in 24 hours for the IX reveal trailer
>suffering for me

Lmao okay buddy


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## NostalgiaFan (May 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> >less than 20 million views in 24 hours for the IX reveal trailer
> >suffering for me
> 
> Lmao okay buddy


"B-b-but muh deadline news articul!"


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 12, 2019)

> less than 20 million views


either an idiot or blind


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## Fang (May 12, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> either an idiot or blind



Is this your level of COPE in to deal with the abysmal less than 1 in 5 views that IX trailer's had compared to VIII's in the first 24 hours? HOLY SHIT THIS SEETHING


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## MartialHorror (May 12, 2019)

I say let Uwe Boll direct a new trilogy...

*Sigh* I miss the days when people would get that joke... I'm getting old...


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 13, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> neverending suffering for you, Fang


Fuck him and every Right Winger on NF compared to SW.

These retards fucked the franchise.

The EU and the OT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The whole NF.


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## dr_shadow (May 19, 2019)

Today is the 20th anniversary of The Phantom Menace.

Now gonna give it its own thread, though. 

---

I feel bad for Jake Lloyd, though. He and I are the same age, and it seems like Star Wars kind of destroyed his life.

It's not his fault that Lucas gave him horrible lines to read, but he's the one who has to live with strangers telling him "try spinning, that's a good trick!" whenever he goes to the grocery store.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zeta42 (May 21, 2019)

Jake's acting was pretty bad, too. His voice in the movie always sounds so bland and emotionless.


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## MartialHorror (May 21, 2019)

Yet he's one of the only actors in that thing to actually seem like he wants to be there. 

My biggest issue with TPM was how robotic the acting was. In hindsight, because so much is green screened, they probably had no idea what was happening around them and what they were reacting too. It got better in each of the prequels and "Revenge of the Sith" has some pretty good performances.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yet he's one of the only actors in that thing to actually seem like he wants to be there.
> 
> My biggest issue with TPM was how robotic the acting was. In hindsight, because so much is green screened, they probably had no idea what was happening around them and what they were reacting too. It got better in each of the prequels and "Revenge of the Sith" has some pretty good performances.


No amout of acting classes or roles will give enough gravitas to Hayden Christensen.


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## Zeta42 (May 22, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> No amout of acting classes or roles will give enough gravitas to Hayden Christensen.


I thought Hayden was actually a good actor, but Lucas kept making him act badly.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 22, 2019)

Zeta42 said:


> I thought Hayden was actually a good actor, but Lucas kept making him act badly.


I think his balls need to be twice as big for me to buy him as a top general of the Clone Wars. Kinda like this guy:


It's not the quality of his acting, it's the caliber of his charisma.


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## Sunrider (May 22, 2019)

Zeta42 said:


> Jake's acting was pretty bad, too. His voice in the movie always sounds so bland and emotionless.


Child actors are rarely much good, and let's not pretend anybody except Frank Oz and Ian McDiarmid were any good in that film. 


Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> No amout of acting classes or roles will give enough gravitas to Hayden Christensen.


Except he has been good though, I think it was his role in _Life as a House_ that put him on the map. The homie Sam L. was bland too and we all _know_ he's good. 

The only performances that were above reproach were (again) Oz and McDiarmid (though McGregor got better with leaps and bounds).


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 22, 2019)

Sunrider said:


> Child actors are rarely much good, and let's not pretend anybody except Frank Oz and Ian McDiarmid were any good in that film.
> Except he has been good though, I think it was his role in _Life as a House_ that put him on the map. The homie Sam L. was bland too and we all _know_ he's good.
> 
> The only performances that were above reproach were (again) Oz and McDiarmid (though McGregor got better with leaps and bounds).


I would not follow that soft voiced dude into battle.


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## Sunrider (May 22, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> I would not follow that soft voiced dude into battle.


You underestimate his power.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 22, 2019)

Sunrider said:


> You underestimate his power.


You overestimate his charisma.


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## dr_shadow (May 22, 2019)

TBH I still don't know how blockading Naboo would help the Trade Federation in the beef about tariffs. It's never explained in the movie why this particular planet is so important.

I think in the novelization it's something about Palpatine being the one who proposed the bill and they're getting back at his home planet. But that's not remotely clear from the film.


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## Sunrider (May 22, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> TBH I still don't know how blockading Naboo would help the Trade Federation in the beef about tariffs. It's never explained in the movie why this particular planet is so important.
> 
> I think in the novelization it's something about Palpatine being the one who proposed the bill and they're getting back at his home planet. But that's not remotely clear from the film.


I never bothered to think about it, since the moment it was revealed the Sith set it up, it was obvious to me the whole plan was a scam that would fall apart the moment anyone with any influence gave it a solid look. 

But of course with Sidious pulling the strings, that would never happen.


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## dr_shadow (May 22, 2019)

Personally I would have started the prequel trilogy with Clones. If you think about it nothing major happens in Phantom that couldn't have been just a line of dialogue in Clones ("remember how we found you on that desert planet?").

It's not necessary for Anakin to have known Padme prior to being assigned as her bodyguard. Just have them fall in love then and there. Likewise it's not necessary for his mom to be in the story at all, even him slaughtering the Sandpeople was cool. Him turning to the Dark Side only on account of his wife dying is enough, I think.

Taking out Phantom would have given you space for another movie between Clones and Sith, which could have fleshed out the stuff that felt rushed in the latter. Like, put all the Grievous stuff be in the middle movie and then have the final one be about Palpatine's rise and Anakin's corruption.


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## dr_shadow (May 22, 2019)

Do you think it's a subtle joke that Northern Irish actor Liam Neeson has a green lightsaber?


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## ~Gesy~ (May 22, 2019)



Reactions: Like 2


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 22, 2019)

Poe got his balls back. For how long?


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## ATastyMuffin (May 22, 2019)

looks dope

if JJ actually sticks to his word about stepping out of the TFA comfort zone, the ST will overall have been good/great

and he's on record saying TLJ inspired him so let's hope he's actually ballsy this time around

either way, ST fan or not, it has to be said that the trilogy as a whole is absolutely _gorgeous_, production and cinematography both


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## ~Gesy~ (May 22, 2019)

Y'all think Luke resurrects?


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## ATastyMuffin (May 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Y'all think Luke resurrects?



Force ghost at best, but nope

there's this blurb from the same Vanity Fair interview:



> Kylo Ren has it all wrong: you can’t bring back the past and become your own grandfather, and you can’t kill the past, either. All you can do is make your peace with it and learn from it and move on. Abrams is doing that with _Star Wars_—and meanwhile the Resistance is going to have to do that, too, if they really are going to bring this saga to an end. Because we’ve been here before, watching a band of scrappy rebels take down a technofascist empire, and it seemed to work fine at the time—but it didn’t last. The same goes for the Jedi and their struggle with the Sith. To end this story, really end it, they’re going to have to figure out the conditions of a more permanent victory over the forces of darkness. Their past was imperfect at best, and the present is a complete disaster—but the future is all before them. This time, finally, they’re going to get it right.



so it seems JJ isn't undoing RJ's work, thank god


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 22, 2019)

Awesome pics. And I think the picture of Luke is like a tribute or in memoriam maybe.


*Spoiler*: _More_ 



https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/photos/2019/05/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-exclusive-photos


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## Skaddix (May 22, 2019)

Whelmed.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 22, 2019)

Please no more Death Stars..besides the already broken one..lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kuromaku (May 22, 2019)

The sequel trilogy was a mistake from its very conception. It was unnecessary and only brings to mind why Tolkien abandoned his sequel to LOTR. The prequels have a lot of issues, but at least I can appreciate the general concept and pretend that the actual events portrayed could have been executed much better in theory. With the sequels, I just can't escape the sense that the movies are a pointless cash-in and glorified fanfiction that comes off less as a proper continuation and more a big-budget pastiche.

EDIT: Just saw that bit about how the new heroes have to bring back a happy ending but do it right. What the fuck is that even? The OT did it right, and now they had to bullshit excuses for making more sequels. How long until the suits ask for yet another continuation of the saga? How long before the latest happy ending is negated?


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## ~Gesy~ (May 22, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> The sequel trilogy was a mistake from its very conception. It was unnecessary and only brings to mind why Tolkien abandoned his sequel to LOTR. The prequels have a lot of issues, but at least I can appreciate the general concept and pretend that the actual events portrayed could have been executed much better in theory. With the sequels, I just can't escape the sense that the movies are a pointless cash-in and glorified fanfiction that comes off less as a proper continuation and more a big-budget pastiche.


Well..cuz that's what they are. And there's already 3 new movies being written as we speak.


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## Kuromaku (May 22, 2019)

With the new movies and their release dates being every other year, it tells me that Disney didn't learn jack from their previous mistakes, or if they did learn something, they took the wrong lessons from the experience. _Star Wars _died when Lucas sold the franchise, didn't it?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 22, 2019)




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## NostalgiaFan (May 22, 2019)

So far absolutely nothing nothing value has been shown from these previews.


Kuromaku said:


> Just saw that bit about how the new heroes have to bring back a happy ending but do it right. What the fuck is that even?


Just another way of saying "our trilogy is better!" from the slimy fucks who butchered the legacy of the OT cast just to prop their new characters up.


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## Mob (May 23, 2019)

Episode 9 will be just all style no substance dumpster fire, pretty promo pics just don't do it for me anymore


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 23, 2019)

Jon Snow Kylo Ren will stab Dany Rey with his lightsaber


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 23, 2019)

Mob said:


> Episode 9 will be just all style no substance dumpster fire, pretty promo pics just don't do it for me anymore


Well, trying to be deep is where they fucked up.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 23, 2019)

Mob said:


> Episode 9 will be just all style no substance dumpster fire, pretty promo pics just don't do it for me anymore



its abrams so yeah maybe

hoping tlj taught him something though


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## MartialHorror (May 23, 2019)

Just out of curiosity, what counts as "substance"?

I love the original "Star Wars", but would I say it's a movie with 'substance'? Not really, but I also have to admit that 'substance' is a tricky thing to define in film. If you were to ask me to describe it, I don't know if I could. 

I get what people are referring to though, as "Star Wars" moves me on a level that's more than superficial. I enjoyed "The Force Awakens", but I don't know if it ever really moved me. Even Han's death -- which I thought was well done -- didn't drive me to tears or provoke an emotional reaction.


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## Kuromaku (May 23, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> its abrams so yeah maybe
> 
> hoping tlj taught him something though



Eh, TLJ was pretty lacking in substance in its own right. It had the attempted messages and some (at times misguided) style, but what substance there was could not support the messages it attempted to convey. Brings to mind that quote from Orson Welles regarding Godard.



MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, what counts as "substance"?
> 
> I love the original "Star Wars", but would I say it's a movie with 'substance'? Not really, but I also have to admit that 'substance' is a tricky thing to define in film. If you were to ask me to describe it, I don't know if I could.
> 
> I get what people are referring to though, as "Star Wars" moves me on a level that's more than superficial. I enjoyed "The Force Awakens", but I don't know if it ever really moved me. Even Han's death -- which I thought was well done -- didn't drive me to tears or provoke an emotional reaction.



SW is high quality fluff at its best, with just enough substance to stick with you. If I were to define substance, it's the meat of a work of art. The bones are the outline, the epidermis is the style, but the meat in between those things is what we call substance. Things like attention to little details (e.g. is the character an archetype or almost a real person in their own right), themes, and those things pompous critics adore are substance.


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## Sunrider (May 23, 2019)

It's a fairly subjective term, but there's been substance in segment of _Star Wars_, it's just that it was created with enough spectacle in mind to enjoy it on a tertiary level. 

It looks like they're going for something substantive for TRoS, I'm looking forward to it.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 24, 2019)

Sunrider said:


> It's a fairly subjective term, but there's been substance in segment of _Star Wars_, it's just that it was created with enough spectacle in mind to enjoy it on a tertiary level.
> 
> It looks like they're going for something substantive for TRoS, I'm looking forward to it.


It's simple stuff.


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## Pilaf (May 26, 2019)

My love/hate relationship with the prequels has evolved more into glowing love over the years. Without them we wouldn't have KOTOR, or Clone Wars, or all the dank memes including Backstroke of the West, which has put a smile on my face many times. Prequels get a pass. Lucas is a genius. His genius is sometimes ahead of its time but it's ever-present, from American Graffiti to Willow and everything in between. His legacy will be a positive one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ATastyMuffin (May 26, 2019)

i mean ill always back lucas for the OT and framing the entire PT as a mockery of the pitfalls of american democracy/imperialism, notably the Iraq War

dude was a fucking left hippie back in the 70s/80s, he's cool as hell

but i'll acknowledge that left to his own devices he's a weak storyteller


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 26, 2019)

TPM and AotC didnt get any better now 


and RotS was good since 2005


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## NostalgiaFan (May 26, 2019)

Any of the Prequels would still be better than TLJ.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 26, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> My love/hate relationship with the prequels has evolved more into glowing love over the years. Without them we wouldn't have KOTOR, or Clone Wars, or all the dank memes including Backstroke of the West, which has put a smile on my face many times. Prequels get a pass. Lucas is a genius. His genius is sometimes ahead of its time but it's ever-present, from American Graffiti to Willow and everything in between. His legacy will be a positive one.


A real G would have made 20 interesting movies using the money from his empire making the entire industry more interesting.


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## MartialHorror (May 26, 2019)

As much as I hate the prequels, I still think Lucas's legacy will be a positive one. It's easy to get swept up in the negative stuff... especially with the toxic dumpsterfire that the internet has become... but the original movie alone is worth enduring a thousand Phantom Menaces... and the trilogy as a whole pretty much gives him a pass on anything. It's like George Romero. No matter how shitty "Survival of the Dead" is, "Dawn of the Dead" will always be what I think about when I think about his movies. 

Even his mistakes and failures tend to be interesting, as who else would give the world duck boobies? 

Has anyone seen "Radioland Murders"? I think that's the only Lucas-related film I haven't seen, even though it's a murder mystery and I feel like I should've seen it at least twice by now, even if it's not very good.


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## MartialHorror (May 26, 2019)

The only George Lucas film I consider to be definitively bad... and he didn't even direct it, even though all his fingerprints are there... is "Red Tails". He made it with the best of intentions, but the usual Lucas problems -- weak dialogue, bad acting by normally good actors and an overabundance of CGI -- stand out more awkwardly in a movie that's trying to win Oscars.

"The Phantom Menace" might evoke more anger out of me and might have more pronounced flaws, but it was a trailblazer in digital effects and "Star Wars" never tried to be anything more than a lark, so it could shoulder some questionable performances.

"Howard the Duck" might be bad, but it's the type of bad that's weirdly appealing if you're in the right mood. I never liked "American Graffiti" or "THX 1138", but I attribute that to them being products of their time. Even though everyone blames Lucas for "Kingdom of the Crystal Skull", I personally found the movie to be entertaining in spite of its flaws.

I had forgotten he also produced "Land Before Time" and "Kagemusha", which are other movies that might give him an automatic pass.

Edit: I haven't seen "Strange Magic" either, but in that case, I don't think it's for me...

Reactions: Like 1


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## U mad bro (May 26, 2019)

Star Wars content is better than the actual movies. The surrounding lore tend to surpass the mainstream movies casually. Proves the mainstream is focused on cash grabbing by using gimmicks. Over telling a great story. Which describes current state of content being pushed out.


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## Sunrider (May 26, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> The only George Lucas film I consider to be definitively bad... and he didn't even direct it, even though all his fingerprints are there... is "Red Tails". He made it with the best of intentions, but the usual Lucas problems -- weak dialogue, bad acting by normally good actors and an overabundance of CGI -- stand out more awkwardly in a movie that's trying to win Oscars.


_Red Tails_ legit made me mad. I was like 'you waited 20 years to tell this story, and this is the best you could do?' 

But I agree he's got more hits than misses (and his hits have been pretty fuckin' big) and will be remembered for that.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 27, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> i mean ill always back lucas for the OT and framing the entire PT as a mockery of the pitfalls of american democracy/imperialism, notably the Iraq War
> 
> dude was a fucking left hippie back in the 70s/80s, he's cool as hell
> 
> but i'll acknowledge that left to his own devices he's a weak storyteller


Listen to George talk.

he is lame. He would be lame compared to his legend no matter what his politics would be.

Lucas is a lameo, he would had been fine with any war if Obama was leading it.



MartialHorror said:


> The only George Lucas film I consider to be definitively bad... and he didn't even direct it, even though all his fingerprints are there... is "Red Tails". He made it with the best of intentions, but the usual Lucas problems -- weak dialogue, bad acting by normally good actors and an overabundance of CGI -- stand out more awkwardly in a movie that's trying to win Oscars.
> 
> "The Phantom Menace" might evoke more anger out of me and might have more pronounced flaws, but it was a trailblazer in digital effects and "Star Wars" never tried to be anything more than a lark, so it could shoulder some questionable performances.
> 
> ...



By he deserves a pass, what do you mean?



Sunrider said:


> _Red Tails_ legit made me mad. I was like 'you waited 20 years to tell this story, and this is the best you could do?'
> 
> But I agree he's got more hits than misses (and his hits have been pretty fuckin' big) and will be remembered for that.



There is an HBO movie.


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## MartialHorror (May 27, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Listen to George talk.
> 
> he is lame. He would be lame compared to his legend no matter what his politics would be.
> 
> ...



He did the original "Star Wars" and the joy it brought me more than makes up for the bad taste in my mouth that was the prequels. I choose to remember filmmakers for their great contributions to cinema.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 27, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> He did the original "Star Wars" and the joy it brought me more than makes up for the bad taste in my mouth that was the prequels. I choose to remember filmmakers for their great contributions to cinema.


You can be a way better storyteller than George and still be lame.


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## MartialHorror (May 27, 2019)

Really, I sometimes think that people here just need to relax and just remember the good times with the OT... or maybe even if the PT if that's your thing...

"Star Wars" will never recapture the greatness of the OT and probably never would have, regardless of who makes the movies. The only chance it had (imo) is if they kept making them immediately following "Return of the Jedi", like they had originally planned. 



Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> You can be a way better storyteller than George and still be lame.



Huh? I really don't care how he carries himself in interviews. Tarantino has practically made a secondary career of putting his foot in his mouth, but I still find his movies to be awesome.


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## Sunrider (May 27, 2019)

So yeah there was that time Lucas wanted to set up affordable housing in his neighborhood (Marin County, really wealthy area) and his and other locals railroaded it because they didn't want us dirty poors ruining the aesthetic... so his response was to build ILM Studios. 

Lucas gets rep on that alone.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 27, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Really, I sometimes think that people here just need to relax and just remember the good times with the OT... or maybe even if the PT if that's your thing...
> 
> "Star Wars" will never recapture the greatness of the OT and probably never would have, regardless of who makes the movies. The only chance it had (imo) is if they kept making them immediately following "Return of the Jedi", like they had originally planned.
> 
> ...


The Ewoks fucked the last one of the trilogy. At least someone can do better than the last movie in the OT.

Tarantino is at least colorful. And he is churning out stuff.



Sunrider said:


> So yeah there was that time Lucas wanted to set up affordable housing in his neighborhood (Marin County, really wealthy area) and his and other locals railroaded it because they didn't want us dirty poors ruining the aesthetic... so his response was to build ILM Studios.
> 
> Lucas gets rep on that alone.



He is old and that was a long time ago.



Pilaf said:


> My love/hate relationship with the prequels has evolved more into glowing love over the years. Without them we wouldn't have KOTOR, or Clone Wars, or all the dank memes including Backstroke of the West, which has put a smile on my face many times. Prequels get a pass. Lucas is a genius. His genius is sometimes ahead of its time but it's ever-present, from American Graffiti to Willow and everything in between. His legacy will be a positive one.



His stupid 40s stereotypes were clearly behind times. In every potential future.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 27, 2019)

Phantom menace gave us the "duel of the fates".

That alone pays more than enough for the flaws.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 27, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Phantom menace gave us the "duel of the fates".
> 
> That alone pays more than enough for the flaws.


Hell no it does not.

You only say that because Star Wars movies are rare.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 27, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Hell no it does not.
> 
> You only say that because Star Wars movies are rare.



Rare?

3 trilogies + one more trilogy in the works+ rogue + solo+Christmas special+2 evok movies=17 movies.
I'm not even counting the animated stuff.

Lol rare.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 27, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Rare?
> 
> 3 trilogies + one more trilogy in the works+ rogue + solo+Christmas special+2 evok movies=17 movies.
> I'm not even counting the animated stuff.
> ...


Christmas special+2 evok movies

Don't count those.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 27, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Christmas special+2 evok movies
> 
> Don't count those.



Unfortunately they exist. So I must.
Even then still 14 movies.


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## MartialHorror (May 27, 2019)

Are Star Wars movies really rare? Even if you ignore the direct-to-smaller platform stuff, There are 10 movies... with an 11th incoming... Most franchises don't have that many entries.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 28, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Unfortunately they exist. So I must.
> Even then still 14 movies.


They clearly did not have the same budgets.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 29, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Are Star Wars movies really rare? Even if you ignore the direct-to-smaller platform stuff, There are 10 movies... with an 11th incoming... Most franchises don't have that many entries.


Pretty damn rare. 

Compared to DC movies for example.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 29, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Pretty damn rare.
> 
> Compared to DC movies for example.



Might as well compare it to Marvel, lol.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 30, 2019)




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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 30, 2019)

They should just get rid of Finn. No upside for that clown character.


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## MartialHorror (May 30, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Pretty damn rare.
> 
> Compared to DC movies for example.



Franchises like those are newer phenomenom's...


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## ~Gesy~ (May 30, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> They should just get rid of Finn. No upside for that clown character.


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## Sunrider (May 30, 2019)

Need to know who mami is next to him.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (May 31, 2019)

Sunrider said:


> Need to know who mami is next to him.



Her name is Jannah and she's played by Naomi Ackie.


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## Sunrider (May 31, 2019)

Just like that, I have a new crush.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (May 31, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


>


Pacific Rim 2 pointed out that he is not leading man material...
The script itself...



MartialHorror said:


> Franchises like those are newer phenomenom's...



The budgets it takes to make these movies should also count when it comes to the original argument....


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## Sunrider (May 31, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Pacific Rim 2 pointed out that he is not leading man material...


_BOXXY YOUZ TROLLIN_


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 1, 2019)

Sunrider said:


> _BOXXY YOUZ TROLLIN_


He is not leading man material for action movies.


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## Unicornsilovethem (Jun 1, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Jon Snow Kylo Ren will stab Dany Rey with his lightsaber


Yeah, his "lightsaber".


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 1, 2019)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> Yeah, his "lightsaber".


EU did it better.





The EU did almost everything better.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 1, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> EU did it better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


alien STDs


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## Garcher (Jun 1, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> alien STDs


I would fuck aayla secura's brains out either way


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 1, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> alien STDs


Easyer to cure than what Kathleen K. gave to Star Wars.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 1, 2019)

I am definitely excited for this film, but I do hope that Lucasfilm does not make any further _Star Wars_ films for at least five years after this one, to allow audiences to recover from _"Star Wars_ fatigue" that some people are experiencing.

The possibility of Palpatine returning is certainly awesome, and it should put an end to all the theories that Snoke is Plagueis, but I do hope that his appearance does not undermine the main struggle between Rey and Kylo Ren.

Also, will we ever learn how Maz Kanata obtained Luke's lightsaber, or is that detail unimportant in the overall story?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 2, 2019)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I am definitely excited for this film, but I do hope that Lucasfilm does not make any further _Star Wars_ films for at least five years after this one, to allow audiences to recover from _"Star Wars_ fatigue" that some people are experiencing.
> 
> The possibility of Palpatine returning is certainly awesome, and it should put an end to all the theories that Snoke is Plagueis, but I do hope that his appearance does not undermine the main struggle between Rey and Kylo Ren.
> 
> Also, will we ever learn how Maz Kanata obtained Luke's lightsaber, or is that detail unimportant in the overall story?


Fatique...

You mean trauma?


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 2, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Fatique...
> 
> You mean trauma?



how are you this shook by children's movies lmao


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 2, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> how are you this shook by children's movies lmao


Fatque is also not be taken literally.


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## BlazingInferno (Jun 2, 2019)

Lol


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 2, 2019)

Aww they deleted it


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 2, 2019)

why do they delete our posts lol

not like we're even throwing insults


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 3, 2019)

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of posts suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jun 4, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of posts suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.


Silenced? Who got banned?


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## Pilaf (Jun 28, 2019)

As Luke fades into the Force, the first thing he perceives is a long hallway. He's confused and perplexed. He always envisioned he'd see something that had meaning to him in life. Like maybe Uncle Owen's far, Tasche Station or Dagobah. He's never even seen a place like this, but it reminds him of some carpeted hallway on Coruscant or Hosnia. Weird. 

He walks through the shimmering darkness until he finds a Durasteel door which opens as he approaches it, as if in anticipation. Before him is a richly decorated office of some sort. The swivel chair in the center turns slowly in his direction. An aged but benevolent looking Human dressed in fine silken robes looks him over, and smiles. "Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the wise?"


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## Fang (Jun 29, 2019)

Lmao


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 4, 2019)

I wonder how much trouble I’d get into if I tried selling Adam Drivers irl address lol


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## Karma (Jul 4, 2019)

~Avant~ said:


> I wonder how much trouble I’d get into if I tried selling Adam Drivers irl address lol


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## Son Of Man (Jul 10, 2019)

Thoughts on Sith Troopers?


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 10, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Thoughts on Sith Troopers?


Literally color swapped versions of vanilla FO stormtroopers. And where the hell is "sith" coming from? last I heard there were no sith in the sequels.


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## Son Of Man (Jul 10, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Literally color swapped versions of vanilla FO stormtroopers. And where the hell is "sith" coming from? last I heard there were no sith in the sequels.


Do you read rumors or leaks? This stuff has been around for a few months now online.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 10, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Do you read rumors or leaks? This stuff has been around for a few months now online.


I don't care enough about the Sequels to bother with rumors or leaks. Only reason I am in this thread is because I was given a notification.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 10, 2019)

What the fuck is a Sith Trooper?


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 10, 2019)

Who cares anymore


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## Sunrider (Jul 11, 2019)

~Avant~ said:


> What the fuck is a Sith Trooper?


Force-sensitive Storm Trooper?


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 11, 2019)

You guys remember back in the days where everyone thought no one could shit the bed worse than George Lucas? Man, Disney has really fucked this franchise up.


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## Aeternus (Jul 11, 2019)

A red stormtrooper? That is so creative


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## Deathbringerpt (Jul 11, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Thoughts on Shit Troopers?



Literally what I read when I glanced at your post. My thoughts is that it's an apt description.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 11, 2019)

More like a lazy one.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 11, 2019)

I guess it could be interesting to look at depending on the rest of the films color scheme, but it's kind of... I dunno... I'll have to see. It can either be cool or terrible...


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## Unicornsilovethem (Jul 11, 2019)

Aeternus said:


> A red stormtrooper? That is so creative


Red gives +5 stamina

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skaddix (Jul 12, 2019)

You mean gives three times the speed. PRAISE CHAR.

Lets hope it gives aim.


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Thoughts on Sith Troopers?



>Sith Troopers in Lucas Star Wars
>Guys happen to have cool armor that resembles but isn't a 1:1 copy paste of Storm Trooper or Clone Trooper designs
>Sith Trooper in Disney Star Wars
>Its literally a palette swap of the the same terrible First Order Storm Troopers but red with those same overly broad visor lenses

I hate it


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## Mob (Jul 12, 2019)

Nah morons will still go watch this trash


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2019)

Mouten said:


> Is this going to flop ?



Doubtful but its definitely not going to do what they want.


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## Grinningfox (Jul 12, 2019)

Can’t wait to see this movie


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## Jake CENA (Jul 12, 2019)

Rey was a mistake


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## Son Of Man (Jul 12, 2019)

Mouten said:


> Is this going to flop ?


1.8 nillion


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## MartialHorror (Jul 12, 2019)

It's honestly too early to say how well it will do. Momentum swings in unpredictable ways.  

J.J Abrams, whether you like him or not, seems to have a solid idea as to what sells... so even though the Sith Troopers might seem silly, maybe kids will like them. Or maybe they will seem cool in action. Abrams does seem to have a soft spot for Storm Troopers. 

I think the movie will do fine at the box office... and probably will be fine in the same way that "The Force Awakens" was. But I think it will inevitably be a financial disappointment because it won't reach "The Force Awakens" numbers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 12, 2019)

in both OT and PT - the *first* movie made the most money
and ROTJ also made less than TESB


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 12, 2019)

so if RoS makes more than TLJ - its like PT
if less than TLJ - like OT


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2019)

There were less views in 48 hours for the trailer of Episode IX then there were in 24 hours for Episodes VII and VIII. The momentum has swung away from the ST and having to regress with doubling down against Rian's attempt at creating a theme of "fuck the old" by trying to use Palpatine/Ian to bring in the new and old fans is desperate strategy.

Its not going to get anywhere close to $2 billion in total revenue.
Its not going to get even close to $1.5-1.8 billion in total revenue.
I think its going to struggle to even get near TLJ's number, because that is where the cancer set in finanically.

Look at Disney's new Star Wars park, it did horrendous on its opening. That does not bode well for the movie. And I will still say Rian is NEVER going to get his spin-off Star Wars trilogy.


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## Jake CENA (Jul 12, 2019)

i'd rather have disney do an epic naruto live action adaptation movie than star wars


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## Son Of Man (Jul 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> There were less views in 48 hours for the trailer of Episode IX then there were in 24 hours for Episodes VII and VIII. The momentum has swung away from the ST and having to regress with doubling down against Rian's attempt at creating a theme of "fuck the old" by trying to use Palpatine/Ian to bring in the new and old fans is desperate strategy.
> 
> Its not going to get anywhere close to $2 billion in total revenue.
> Its not going to get even close to $1.5-1.8 billion in total revenue.
> ...


I would like to see his trilogy. skywalker stuff is done and it would be something completely new. It could also be a colossal failure which is grade A entertainment in itself.


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> I would like to see his trilogy. skywalker stuff is done and it would be something completely new. It could also be a colossal failure which is grade A entertainment in itself.



I'd rather he'd not but then again, the more Rian shows how much Disney and himself are high off their belief in what Star Wars is "supposed" to be under Kathleen Kennedy's helm; then the more it will make people nostalgic for Lucas to take things over again. Its a win-win either way.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> I'd rather he'd not but then again, the more Rian shows how much Disney and himself are high off their belief in what Star Wars is "supposed" to be under Kathleen Kennedy's helm; then the more it will make people nostalgic for Lucas to take things over again. Its a win-win either way.



and then the Star Wars community will be ripped apart again... and the cycle shall continue. 

Either way, Lucas will probably never take it back over. Even if Disney wanted him back, he doesn't seem all that interested in filmmaking anymore.

I think the best thing for Star Wars... as risky as this might be... is they should aim more for younger audiences. Maybe even strive for the PG rating. The new wave of films seems more built around catering to the adults who were raised on it, who are always going to have divisive opinions on everything Star Wars related.


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> and then the Star Wars community will be ripped apart again... and the cycle shall continue.
> 
> Either way, Lucas will probably never take it back over. Even if Disney wanted him back, he doesn't seem all that interested in filmmaking anymore.



Doubtful. Lucas has always been inconsistent on departing from doing more with Star Wars. His big long time project was the live-action Star Wars Underworld series that was halfway through pre-production when the Disney deal went down.



> I think the best thing for Star Wars... as risky as this might be... is they should aim more for younger audiences. Maybe even strive for the PG rating. The new wave of films seems more built around catering to the adults who were raised on it, who are always going to have divisive opinions on everything Star Wars related.



They've already failed at this and alienated the older fans as a result. Instead of trying to cater to an unknown variable, they should stick with what works as far as fans go and not try to appease or try and market themselves to a demographic that doesn't buy their merchandise or care about the IP.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> Doubtful. Lucas has always been inconsistent on departing from doing more with Star Wars. His big long time project was the live-action Star Wars Underworld series that was halfway through pre-production when the Disney deal went down.
> 
> 
> 
> They've already failed at this and alienated the older fans as a result. Instead of trying to cater to an unknown variable, they should stick with what works as far as fans go and not try to appease or try and market themselves to a demographic that doesn't buy their merchandise or care about the IP.



- It's doubtful that Lucas will come back or won't come back? 

- But you're also saying they've damaged the brand. If they fire Kennedy and give the fans "what they want"... and I have no idea what that is at this point... then they've alienated the large group of people who like the new movies. The audience will still be splintered, unless once again... they go to the roots of the saga and focus on kids and more family friendly entertainment. Then they are rebuilding the brand from scratch. 

Sort of like what they seem to be doing with Ghostbusters, although it's too early to really make that comparison, as every reboot will attempt to market themselves that way when a franchise goes south.


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> - It's doubtful that Lucas will come back or won't come back?



its doubtful your claim that Lucas was done with Star Wars before Disney took over.



> - But you're also saying they've damaged the brand. If they fire Kennedy and give the fans "what they want"... and I have no idea what that is at this point... then they've alienated the large group of people who like the new movies. The audience will still be splintered, unless once again... they go to the roots of the saga and focus on kids and more family friendly entertainment. Then they are rebuilding the brand from scratch.



They've already damaged the brand. The overwhelming theme and narrative Rian pushed in TLJ was "fuck the OT" and sent Luke Skywalker, the most iconic and beloved character as well as popular one, into a dismal end without even a high note going for him. The pushback on this showed in TLJ's box office performance and came back again with how Solo performed, well among other issues of that movie being a clusterfuck.

If you lose your core audience who are the people who buy your tickets for your movies, your toys, your games, your merchandise and try to reach for a new audience who aren't going to match what the former one can do, that's not exactly keeping an IP from floundering.



> Sort of like what they seem to be doing with Ghostbusters, although it's too early to really make that comparison, as every reboot will attempt to market themselves that way when a franchise goes south.



Every single reboot aside from Jumanji has been a pretty big failure besides Ghostbusters, but that had more to do with the all female cast and it being a terrible movie. The Oceans 11 spin-off with the all female cast didn't fly well either.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> - It's doubtful that Lucas will come back or won't come back?
> 
> - But you're also saying they've damaged the brand. If they fire Kennedy and give the fans "what they want"... and I have no idea what that is at this point... then they've alienated the large group of people who like the new movies. The audience will still be splintered, unless once again... they go to the roots of the saga and focus on kids and more family friendly entertainment. Then they are rebuilding the brand from scratch.
> 
> Sort of like what they seem to be doing with Ghostbusters, although it's too early to really make that comparison, as every reboot will attempt to market themselves that way when a franchise goes south.


What makes you sure the new fans will be loyal to the TLJ approach? What makes you sure they are a critical mass?



MartialHorror said:


> and then the Star Wars community will be ripped apart again... and the cycle shall continue.
> 
> Either way, Lucas will probably never take it back over. Even if Disney wanted him back, he doesn't seem all that interested in filmmaking anymore.
> 
> I think the best thing for Star Wars... as risky as this might be... is they should aim more for younger audiences. Maybe even strive for the PG rating. The new wave of films seems more built around catering to the adults who were raised on it, who are always going to have divisive opinions on everything Star Wars related.



Shut up. SW fans put up with an incredible amouint of BS. Any other franchsie gets destroyed by TPM.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> its doubtful your claim that Lucas was done with Star Wars before Disney took over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- If he wasn't done, he wouldn't have sold it. 
- That's just it though. You're not going to win back people once the brand has been damaged, unless you completely reinvent it. 
- When I said new Ghostbusters movie, I meant the one currently in development, where the marketing campaign seems to be based around "going to its roots", etc.



Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> What makes you sure the new fans will be loyal to the TLJ approach? What makes you sure they are a critical mass?
> 
> Shut up. SW fans put up with an incredible amouint of BS. Any other franchsie gets destroyed by TPM.



.... 

- That's why I say start focusing on younger audiences, who don't have all of this baggage -- which includes TLJ. So it would not be the same approach. 

- You're right. They have to put up with you trying to defend them.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> - If he wasn't done, he wouldn't have sold it.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


So you add even more reason for people to dislike it...

Considering that i was right about them pulling back and you said this will be a Disney victory tour...


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## MartialHorror (Jul 12, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> So you add even more reason for people to dislike it...
> 
> Considering that i was right about them pulling back and* you said this will be a Disney victory tour..*.



... what?


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## Jake CENA (Jul 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> and then the Star Wars community will be ripped apart again... and the cycle shall continue.
> 
> Either way, Lucas will probably never take it back over. Even if Disney wanted him back, he doesn't seem all that interested in filmmaking anymore.
> 
> I think the best thing for Star Wars... as risky as this might be... is they should aim more for younger audiences. Maybe even strive for the PG rating. The new wave of films seems more built around catering to the adults who were raised on it, who are always going to have divisive opinions on everything Star Wars related.



Are you serious? PG Star Wars? So what are they gonna do? Settle their disputes with Jedi force arm wrestling instead of light saber duels?


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## MartialHorror (Jul 12, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> Are you serious? PG Star Wars? So what are they gonna do? Settle their disputes with Jedi force arm wrestling instead of light saber duels?



I know, right? It's like... Star Wars movies have never been PG before...


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 12, 2019)

It should not take a rocket scientist to figure out the reason why SW fans are not happy is because the ST shitted on the accomplishments of the OT cast just to essentially remake the OT itself with worse characters and story lines.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Jul 12, 2019)

I miss jedi/sith


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 12, 2019)




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## Skaddix (Jul 12, 2019)

Mob said:


> Nah morons will still go watch this trash



Nothing wrong with watching as long as you dont pay.


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## Skaddix (Jul 12, 2019)

I mean if it gets bad enough they could beg George Lucas to come back. 

Not likely though. They need to get KK out of there and not let her pick her own successor and put someone they can trust to be a creative voice in charge. Then they need a soft reboot and to clear out this trilogy or just ignore it lol which they probably will for awhile by going back in time or less likely far into the future. 

I know people love Dave Filoni, I have issues with his obsession with Ahsoka, spinning sabers, Mace Windu writing, etc. But it doesn't matter he lacks the clout for most Execs and Shareholders to know his name. Best case for us I think is Jon Favreau gets the job if Mandolorians is a smashing success and Lion King clears a Billion.  He is got enough name recognition to get put in charge.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I know, right? It's like... Star Wars movies have never been PG before...


On the bigscreen, widely released...



MartialHorror said:


> ... what?



The truth.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 13, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> On the bigscreen, widely released...
> 
> 
> 
> The truth.



-- Are you serious? Do you guys seriously not know that "Revenge of the Sith" was the first PG-13 Star Wars flick? The original trilogy was made before the rating was created (I think), but TPM and AoTC were both PG, even though they have people being impaled, chopped in half, limbs getting sliced off, etc. And this was in the wake of the Columbine massacre, where there was a major backlash against violence in film and the MPAA was being stricter for it. 

-- I have no idea what you're referring too...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Jul 14, 2019)

2019 isn't too late to get into Legends, guys. The Thrawn trilogy stands up to this day, and KOTOR is fucking classic.


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## Mob (Jul 15, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2019)

Im more interested in box office and Sheev than anything else in this movie


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## Mob (Jul 15, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Im more interested in box office and Sheev than anything else in this movie


Im more interested in mr plinkett/mauler review of the movie than movie itself

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Jul 15, 2019)

Mob said:


>



This movie is written by the DCEU guy?!


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## dr_shadow (Jul 15, 2019)

*Chris Terrio writing credits*

1. Heights (2005)
2. Argo (2012)
3. Batman v Superman (2016)
4. Justice League (2017)
5. Star Wars Episode IX (2019)

This is a more spectacular fail upwards than Alex Kurtzman being put in charge of Star Trek.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2019)

Wow

RIP


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 15, 2019)

CHEWBACCA ..
WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME


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## Son Of Man (Jul 15, 2019)

This is going to be good


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## Kuromaku (Jul 16, 2019)

Hey, screenwriting is a complicated process given how often other writers and suits get involved without being credited for their own contributions to the final product. Granted, that does not bode well for this movie, and it is possible for even the writer of a flop to win awards for other work (see Akiva Goldsman), but let's not completely damn the movie due to its choice of writers (although JJ has always been a journeyman good at imitating the style but not the essence of Spielberg).


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## dr_shadow (Jul 16, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Hey, screenwriting is a complicated process given how often other writers and suits get involved without being credited for their own contributions to the final product. Granted, that does not bode well for this movie, and it is possible for even the writer of a flop to win awards for other work (see Akiva Goldsman), but let's not completely damn the movie due to its choice of writers (although JJ has always been a journeyman good at imitating the style but not the essence of Spielberg).



True, but why would you take the chance of putting someone with no hits on his CV in charge of *fucking Star Wars*?

With Rian Johnson I can see why Looper (2012) could give someone the idea that he's a qualified sci-fi/action director, but this guy? Why on Earth would anyone walk out of Justice League thinking "we've found our Episode IX writer!"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jake CENA (Jul 16, 2019)

its nice Disney is giving everyone equal opportunity to fuck this up


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## MartialHorror (Jul 16, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> True, but why would you take the chance of putting someone with no hits on his CV in charge of *fucking Star Wars*?
> 
> With Rian Johnson I can see why Looper (2012) could give someone the idea that he's a qualified sci-fi/action director, but this guy? Why on Earth would anyone walk out of Justice League thinking "we've found our Episode IX writer!"



There's a lot of reasons why a screen-writer gets hired, one of them being that they can turn in something usable on time, which is probably the biggest challenge any screen-writer encounters.


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## Sunrider (Jul 17, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Chris Terrio writing credits*
> 
> 1. Heights (2005)
> 2. Argo (2012)
> ...


I heard _Argo_ was good, but the rest do _not_ inspire confidence.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 17, 2019)

I saw Argo back when it came out, it was good. Not sure if it deserved Best Picture but it was a good film.


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## dr_shadow (Jul 17, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> I saw Argo back when it came out, it was good. Not sure if it deserved Best Picture but it was a good film.



It won Best Picture? 

I retract my "no hits" comment, then.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 17, 2019)

Yeah. As well Best Director which went for Ben Affleck.


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## Mabel Gleeful (Jul 17, 2019)

This film is gonna flop so hard. It doesn't help that it comes right during the campaigning period, at a time when the US corporate media adopted the term "Resistance" unironically. 4chan, Reddit and YouTube no life trolls are going to have a blast.


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## Son Of Man (Jul 17, 2019)

Has the monetary drop between ST movies remained consistant with the previous trilogies?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 18, 2019)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> This film is gonna flop so hard. It doesn't help that it comes right during the campaigning period, at a time when the US corporate media adopted the term "Resistance" unironically. 4chan, Reddit and YouTube no life trolls are going to have a blast.


I am sure the media members who propped rhis shit up are well adjusted, charismatic and awesome people...


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## MartialHorror (Jul 18, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Has the monetary drop between ST movies remained consistant with the previous trilogies?



I'm sure someone who cares will come up with a chart, but if memory serves, the gap between 1 and 2 widened each time. TLJ grossed about half of TFA, whereas "Attack of the Clones" grossed about... 60% of what TPM did? I think. Empire Strikes Back was closer to 75%.

But it's not really accurate because most, if not all of these films have been re-released at some point. 

Does anyone know if "The Last Jedi" sold more tickets than "Attack of the Clones" did? I remember hearing that when adjusted for inflation, "AotC" was the lowest selling live-action Star Wars flick, but I think that was before the new wave of Star Wars films and I'd assume it sold better than "Solo".


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## Mabel Gleeful (Jul 18, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> I am sure the media members who propped rhis shit up are well adjusted, charismatic and awesome people...


As much as I hate corporate media figures, they're definitely more socially adept than the downright anti-social (in the sense of aggressive and harmful, not shy) people you find in those sites.


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## Mabel Gleeful (Jul 18, 2019)

I mean, Rachel Maddow for instance is more than annoying and her views are repugnant to me but I think I would have a more pleasant time with her than someone like Sargon of Akkad or Stephan Molyneux.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 18, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 18, 2019)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> As much as I hate corporate media figures, they're definitely more socially adept than the downright anti-social (in the sense of aggressive and harmful, not shy) people you find in those sites.


Anti social, defines the social justice media just fine.

Media is aggressive, harmful and cliquish.


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## Mob (Jul 18, 2019)

* Sith troopers *
 *Shit troopers *


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## Son Of Man (Jul 18, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I'm sure someone who cares will come up with a chart, but if memory serves, the gap between 1 and 2 widened each time. TLJ grossed about half of TFA, whereas "Attack of the Clones" grossed about... 60% of what TPM did? I think. Empire Strikes Back was closer to 75%.
> 
> But it's not really accurate because most, if not all of these films have been re-released at some point.
> 
> Does anyone know if "The Last Jedi" sold more tickets than "Attack of the Clones" did? I remember hearing that when adjusted for inflation, "AotC" was the lowest selling live-action Star Wars flick, but I think that was before the new wave of Star Wars films and I'd assume it sold better than "Solo".


I see. About what I expected.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jul 20, 2019)




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## dr_shadow (Jul 20, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


>



You probably need a lot of creativity to write these Visual Dictionaries, because you have to assign a plausible function to details of an object that are probably only there because the prop designer thought it "looked cool".

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 20, 2019)

Knights of Ren should've been introduced last movie .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skaddix (Jul 20, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Knights of Ren should've been introduced last movie .



So True...


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 20, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> So True...


We instead spent an hour playing a game of space battleship and a casino subplot that I already forgot about.


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## Skaddix (Jul 20, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> We instead spent an hour playing a game of space battleship and a casino subplot that I already forgot about.



Truly a casino mission that failed cause of a parking violation...a fucking parking violation.

And the worlds slowest space chase. Sloths and Snails move faster


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 20, 2019)

Need some good ass lightsaber fights in ep9

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 20, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Truly a casino mission that failed cause of a parking violation...a fucking parking violation.
> 
> And the worlds slowest space chase. Sloths and Snails move faster


Fuck it! I'll say it!

Last Jedi is worse than Phantom Menace.


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## Fang (Jul 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> - If he wasn't done, he wouldn't have sold it.



He literally said he regretted the decision to sell it. Which falls back on my point though, Lucas has a history of contradicting himself; does one thing, or says one thing, then does the opposite of that in reaction. 



> - That's just it though. You're not going to win back people once the brand has been damaged, unless you completely reinvent it.



Well they failed at trying to use nostalgia to prop up the Sequel Trilogy and then shitted on PT fans with TFA. Then they shitted on OT fans with TLJ. You don't win anyone when you already shit on 2/3rds of the fandom. 



> - When I said new Ghostbusters movie, I meant the one currently in development, where the marketing campaign seems to be based around "going to its roots", etc.



Its not related to that terrible all female one is it?


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## MartialHorror (Jul 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> He literally said he regretted the decision to sell it. Which falls back on my point though, Lucas has a history of contradicting himself; does one thing, or says one thing, then does the opposite of that in reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, it's going to be a direct sequel to the first two movies. Leslie Jones was apparently pissed off when it was announced, as she ranted on twitter how the 2016 film was being ignored.

The rumor though is that it's going to focus on a younger cast, as half of the actors attached so far are kids, including one from "Stranger Things", although Paul Rudd signed on as well.


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## Deathbringerpt (Jul 21, 2019)

Are we pretending that the Lucas trilogy that he directed and wrote without anyone to edit his terrible tendencies are any good? The only reason why the original trilogy is any good is because it was edited to fucking shit. Lucas's original drafts were just as terrible as the prequels.

Lucas isn't the fucking promised savior of Star Wars. He already made it a fucking joke long before Disney. The guy was a businessman first and a filmmaker second. 

It's weird seeing people talking SO much about this. Star Wars is such a limited fucking universe and it has 3 good movies and a bunch of terrible ones. Why do people even care?


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## Son Of Man (Jul 23, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> You probably need a lot of creativity to write these Visual Dictionaries, because you have to assign a plausible function to details of an object that are probably only there because the prop designer thought it "looked cool".


I wish other properties made visual dictionaries. Hate when certain symbols and stuff like that aren't explained in series but are used heavily.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 23, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Are we pretending that the Lucas trilogy that he directed and wrote without anyone to edit his terrible tendencies are any good? The only reason why the original trilogy is any good is because it was edited to fucking shit. Lucas's original drafts were just as terrible as the prequels.
> 
> Lucas isn't the fucking promised savior of Star Wars. He already made it a fucking joke long before Disney. The guy was a businessman first and a filmmaker second.
> 
> It's weird seeing people talking SO much about this. Star Wars is such a limited fucking universe and it has 3 good movies and a bunch of terrible ones. Why do people even care?



Eh, when a movie leaves such an impression on an entire generation of children, they're going to have stronger reactions. I've always maintained that Star Wars was doomed to be divisive since Lucas decided to end the saga after "Return of the Jedi", as it left an entire fandom starved for more, as they determined what should be canon, what shouldn't be canon, etc. 

People are only treating Lucas as the savior of Star Wars because it's trendy right now and because they hate Disney -- or at least Disney's Star Wars output. They tend to forget how everyone desperately wanted to get the franchise away from him after the prequels. Yet some people here insist that it never happened, even though they've made documentaries dealing with it.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 23, 2019)

On a more positive note, what's everyone's favorite Star Wars flick? 

It's probably "Empire Strikes Back"... and I agree that it's the best, but part of me prefers the original film as it has a sturdier narrative. I've always disliked how the sequels split up the primary cast, who worked so well together.

In fact, my biggest complaint surrounding the new films is that we never really got a reunion with all three of them together.


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## reiatsuflow (Jul 23, 2019)

Return of the jedi. I saw the movies as a kid, empire was too dark and drab looking. I feel empire is the favorite of an older crowd. Jedi was more colorful and exciting ,and the third act holds up. Maybe the ewoks are silly, but luke/emperor/vader is peak star wars.


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## Mider T (Jul 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> what's everyone's favorite Star Wars flick?


The Phantom Menace


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## Garcher (Jul 23, 2019)

the phantom menace is better than the sequels


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## reiatsuflow (Jul 23, 2019)

Garcher said:


> the phantom menace is better than the sequels


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 23, 2019)

I actually like A new Hope the most. If I didn't already know the twist at the end of ESB I may have liked that one more. 

"Return of the Jedi" and "the Last Jedi" are more similar than people think.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> what's everyone's favorite Star Wars flick?


either the OG Star Wars


or RotS


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## Sunrider (Jul 23, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Are we pretending that the Lucas trilogy that he directed and wrote without anyone to edit his terrible tendencies are any good? The only reason why the original trilogy is any good is because it was edited to fucking shit. Lucas's original drafts were just as terrible as the prequels.


That's the thing about the _Star Wars_ films. How people compare them to previous gives me an idea about whether to take their reactions to the newest ones seriously. 

Until episode 8, it was almost a pastime of the fanbase to shit on 1-3, and _only_ in the last five to seven years have we really seen people speaking up about actually enjoying the prequels. But the thing is, while they weren't masterpieces, they weren't unwatchable by any stretch either. They had some corny elements, but were generally enjoyable. But _because_ they weren't masterpieces and we _know_ they weren't masterpieces, using them to shit on episodes 7-9 reveals the complainer as disingenuous. 

Same with the prequels. The classic trilogy had maybe _one_ knockout film in episode five--I remember going back to watch the classic and thinking "holy shit eps 4 and 6 are so much cornier than I remember." It was around then I realized that people bitching about 1-3 were maybe just whining for the sake of it. 


> The guy was a businessman first and a filmmaker second.


Hard disagree there. Before _Star Wars_ there were _THX 1138_ and _American Graffiti_, which are critically acclaimed. And while a lot of story elements required a lot of filter, the special effects and visual style of the classic trilogy was, frankly, groundbreaking. Even if it was executed terribly, _Red Tails_ was also his baby and when he conceived of it, ahead of it's time. 

Where Lucas falls short is the character and dramatic element--he's a very technical director, knowing all about how to make a shot look great and build beautiful worlds, but plot development, character interaction, dialogue... he's famously bad with those. 

The dude's a definite artist, it's fair to say that his range is limited though, and that he works best with a lot of balancing influences. I honestly hope he jumps back into film at some point, on something that isn't _Star Wars_.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Jul 24, 2019)

Sunrider said:


> Hard disagree there. Before _Star Wars_ there were _THX 1138_ and _American Graffiti_, which are critically acclaimed. And while a lot of story elements required a lot of filter, the special effects and visual style of the classic trilogy was, frankly, groundbreaking. Even if it was executed terribly, _Red Tails_ was also his baby and when he conceived of it, ahead of it's time.
> 
> Where Lucas falls short is the character and dramatic element--he's a very technical director, knowing all about how to make a shot look great and build beautiful worlds, but plot development, character interaction, dialogue... he's famously bad with those.
> 
> The dude's a definite artist, it's fair to say that his range is limited though, and that he works best with a lot of balancing influences. I honestly hope he jumps back into film at some point, on something that isn't _Star Wars_.



You bring up a good point here, as it's easy to forget that Lucas also made other films between the trilogies (if only as a producer), it's just that they failed (except Indiana Jones) 

I think the whole "Is Lucas an artist or businessman" argument is much more nuanced than we'll ever probably know. You can tell Star Wars became more about selling merchandise around "Return of the Jedi", but in his defense, "Empire Strikes Back" went over-budget and the darker tone wasn't well received, so it makes sense that he'd want to play it safe for the next one. 

I don't know if this is true, but I remember hearing that he (or his business) was running low on money around the time the prequels entered development, so maybe he just had to return to Star Wars, as nothing else he was doing was making money (except Indiana Jones, although I don't know how much he makes off that). 

Even his direction to direct all three of the prequels may have been due to the problems he encountered with the director of "Return of the Jedi". But I'd also be interested in seeing him make some sort of return, as good or bad, I can't think of any of his movies being... ordinary...


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## reiatsuflow (Jul 24, 2019)

And the prequel trilogy basically created the whole blockbuster filmmaking on a green screen lot, right? I think they used bluescreens, but either way that's all anybody ever does now. So lucas is sorta like a mildly retarded james cameron with his tech innovations.


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## Sunrider (Jul 25, 2019)

In addition, even though the original draft was wild as fuck, Lucas's original vision was fantastical: the Dark Horse adaptation got pretty popular, as I recall. His films also have a lot of nods to his childhood favorites (_Flash Gordon_ and Kurosawa films most famously). He was always upfront about the series being a big space fantasy-opera, borrowing from previous fantasy films and when I remind myself of that, none of his choices feel that out of place. 

If there's one thing the guy's about, it's the art of filmmaking.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 25, 2019)

4 is OK 5 is great, 6 is garbage 

1 is bad, 2 is bad, 3 is good 

7 is bad 

8 is garbage 

9 is probably gonna be slightly better then 8


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 25, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 4 is OK 5 is great, 6 is garbage
> 
> 1 is bad, 2 is bad, 3 is good
> 
> ...


ROTJ has better acting across th board compared to ROTS even if ROTJ has silly ewoks.


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## Amol (Jul 25, 2019)

Sometimes I  wonder why people bother with this thread. It is so depressing. 
If you don't really like something why torture yourself? 
I didn't like TLJ either(though it didn't ruin my childhood or other nonsense) so I ignored the movie. I just find it weird that people can spent so much time and energy on something they don't like. 
Couldn't that time be better spent on something they do like? 
Being negative is an exhausting work.


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## Mabel Gleeful (Jul 25, 2019)

Amol said:


> Sometimes I  wonder why people bother with this thread. It is so depressing.
> If you don't really like something why torture yourself?
> I didn't like TLJ either(though it didn't ruin my childhood or other nonsense) so I ignored the movie. I just find it weird that people can spent so much time and energy on something they don't like.
> Couldn't that time be better spent on something they do like?
> Being negative is an exhausting work.


They feel this way they can pressure Disney-owned Lucasfilm to either return to George Lucas's original handling of the franchise, or outright reverse the Disney buy. There is another more important reason as well (the real reason really) but I don't want to derail the thread pointing it out.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 25, 2019)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> reverse the Disney buy


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Jul 26, 2019)

Amol said:


> Sometimes I  wonder why people bother with this thread. It is so depressing.
> If you don't really like something why torture yourself?
> I didn't like TLJ either(though it didn't ruin my childhood or other nonsense) so I ignored the movie. I just find it weird that people can spent so much time and energy on something they don't like.
> Couldn't that time be better spent on something they do like?
> Being negative is an exhausting work.


IP fucked over because of politics...
It's a legit trend in the arts right now.



Mabel Gleeful said:


> They feel this way they can pressure Disney-owned Lucasfilm to either return to George Lucas's original handling of the franchise, or outright reverse the Disney buy. There is another more important reason as well (the real reason really) but I don't want to derail the thread pointing it out.



Disney owned ESPN decreased it's preaching...

Invisible Hand bitchslaps baby.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 26, 2019)

This was an interesting video -- 
I've heard this story before, but I hadn't heard that Spielberg ghost directed the 'Yoda Vs Palpatine' fight in RotS.


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## Ebisu's Shades (Jul 26, 2019)

I've enjoyed them all.  A New Hope is my favorite.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 1, 2019)

It looks like we have our first, official look at the Starhawk-class Battleship, courtesy of _Star Wars Armada. _

Same announcement also revealed the Onager-class Star Destroyer aka. the Siege Breaker from _Rebel Files, _complete with super-laser. 

If they are releasing the, I would give it good odds that we'll see both in _Rise of Skywalker_.


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## The Great One (Aug 1, 2019)

Garcher said:


> the phantom menace is better than the sequels


Pod Race > Sequels.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 1, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> It looks like we have our first, official look at the Starhawk-class Battleship, courtesy of _Star Wars Armada. _
> 
> Same announcement also revealed the Onager-class Star Destroyer aka. the Siege Breaker from _Rebel Files, _complete with super-laser.
> 
> If they are releasing the, I would give it good odds that we'll see both in _Rise of Skywalker_.


Second one actually looks cool.

I guess Disney SW does not suck 100%.


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## Deathbringerpt (Aug 5, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Eh, when a movie leaves such an impression on an entire generation of children, they're going to have stronger reactions. I've always maintained that Star Wars was doomed to be divisive since Lucas decided to end the saga after "Return of the Jedi", as it left an entire fandom starved for more, as they determined what should be canon, what shouldn't be canon, etc.
> 
> People are only treating Lucas as the savior of Star Wars because it's trendy right now and because they hate Disney -- or at least Disney's Star Wars output. They tend to forget how everyone desperately wanted to get the franchise away from him after the prequels. Yet some people here insist that it never happened, even though they've made documentaries dealing with it.



That's just reactionary bullshit, though. The prequels aren't just bad, they're the product of a money chasing has-been that completely fails at writing characters in every possible way for the sake of special effects. Change up a few words and that's exactly what Disney is doing.

This is something that didn't happen with the original trilogy because people with actual talent took over to make it a digestible product. Writers, directors, you name. Lucas might have revolutionized SFX but that shit completely blurred his brain and he's obviously completely incapable of creating anything without gigantic green screens in mind.

I hate the fuck out of Disney and not even because of Star Wars - I never cared all that much for it, it makes for a great fantasy sci fiadventure but it's incredibly infantile half of the time. But Jesus Christ, as much I hate Disney, they make better Star Wars movies than Lucas ever did. And that's comparing bullshit with vomit.

I saw a video of that official Star Wars convention where they announce new movies and it was fucking bizarre. It filled to the brim with fat middle aged men and women losing their shit and literally *crying* over the Last Jedi trailer. I'm beginning to believe this fanbase is so emotionally and mentally stunted they don't have anything in their lives besides these things. I bet everyone will see this last movie and repeat the same thing all over again.



Sunrider said:


> Hard disagree there. Before _Star Wars_ there were _THX 1138_ and _American Graffiti_, which are critically acclaimed. And while a lot of story elements required a lot of filter, the special effects and visual style of the classic trilogy was, frankly, groundbreaking. Even if it was executed terribly, _Red Tails_ was also his baby and when he conceived of it, ahead of it's time.
> 
> Where Lucas falls short is the character and dramatic element--he's a very technical director, knowing all about how to make a shot look great and build beautiful worlds, but plot development, character interaction, dialogue... he's famously bad with those.
> 
> The dude's a definite artist, it's fair to say that his range is limited though, and that he works best with a lot of balancing influences. I honestly hope he jumps back into film at some point, on something that isn't _Star Wars_.



I should've clarified a bit there. "Star Wars Mode" Lucas is a business man first and artist second. I know he was actually a solid filmmaker and I actually like _THX 1138_ and _American Graffiti plenty. _Red Tails is just another example of his current inability to make a story without flooding it with shitty special effects.

He should stick what what he's good at - actually, make that what he *thinks* he's good at, and actually start bringing talented writers and directors to placate his shortcomings as a director. And even then, it's not a sure thing. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is just sad. It's not even a terrible movie, it's just and old, tired attempt at Indiana Jones with dumb shit that doesn't feel like Indiana Jones. Exactly like the prequels, seeing Spielberg's frustration with Lucas' stupid shit just makes me think he gave up midway and let Lucas do whatever.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 4 is OK 5 is great, 6 is garbage
> 
> 1 is bad, 2 is bad, 3 is good
> 
> ...



3 is a fucking *terrible* movie and the only good thing about it is Palpatine after he reveals himself as the Sith guy since he's a hilariously evil, overacting goofy friend. It manages to filter Lucas's shitty writing through campy acting.

7 is much better at being a Star Wars movie than any of the prequels ever were. Its biggest problem is being the boring "safe" Disney formula but it actually introduced new characters that had alot of potential (before everything was completely and utterly ruined by The Last Jedi). At least Lucas tried new stuff, I'll give him that, even if he failed spectacularly at all of it.


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## Son Of Man (Aug 5, 2019)

we're like 4 months away from the movie and my hype level is at a all time low
I wonder when we'll get our first trailer. I feel like most of the story has already been leaked online lol


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## Grinningfox (Aug 5, 2019)

I have a feeling this will suck


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 6, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> we're like 4 months away from the movie and my hype level is at a all time low
> I wonder when we'll get our first trailer. I feel like most of the story has already been leaked online lol


4 months...

I had no idea it's that close.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 6, 2019)

will we have another Dark Phoenix on our hands ?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 6, 2019)

> D&D are making the next trilogy 

make it STOP


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## Garcher (Aug 6, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> > D&D are making the next trilogy
> 
> make it STOP


hasn't Disney realized these hacks have simply copy-pasted from the books


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## Mob (Aug 8, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> > D&D are making the next trilogy
> 
> make it STOP


oh  boy


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## Son Of Man (Aug 8, 2019)

Sith Troopers


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## ClandestineSchemer (Aug 9, 2019)

Can't wait for the "And Rey forgot about the death star being there" moment.


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## Jake CENA (Aug 9, 2019)

why can't they let this shit die!?

the last 4 movies totally sucked ass


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## Fang (Aug 9, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Sith Troopers


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## MShadows (Aug 11, 2019)

I completely forgot about this movie. 

4 months until its out and we haven't even gotten our first trailer for it. 

What are the chances they actually cancel this?


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## Amol (Aug 11, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I completely forgot about this movie.
> 
> 4 months until its out and we haven't even gotten our first trailer for it.
> 
> What are the chances they actually cancel this?


Zero. 
These movies makes buttload of money despite what people may think.


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## MShadows (Aug 11, 2019)

Amol said:


> Zero.
> These movies makes buttload of money despite what people may think.


Oh well, at least get it over with and leave this thing alone already.


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## Fang (Aug 11, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I completely forgot about this movie.
> 
> 4 months until its out and we haven't even gotten our first trailer for it.
> 
> What are the chances they actually cancel this?



We got a trailer for it. The thing the Disney shills aren't telling you is the IX trailer received less attention and views in its first 24 hours then Episode VII and Episode VIII did. There are also reports about how the Star Wars theme park had a massive disappointing opening not meeting any of Disney's expectations for ticket or attendance, Galaxy's Edge failing completely and all merchandise tanking like usual which is why IX is what they are banking.

Don't listen to people like him. Disney has effectively killed the IP.


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## MShadows (Aug 11, 2019)

Fang said:


> We got a trailer for it. The thing the Disney shills aren't telling you is the IX trailer received less attention and views in its first 24 hours then Episode VII and Episode VIII did. There are also reports about how the Star Wars theme park had a massive disappointing opening not meeting any of Disney's expectations for ticket or attendance, Galaxy's Edge failing completely and all merchandise tanking like usual which is why IX is what they are banking.
> 
> Don't listen to people like him. Disney has effectively killed the IP.


TLJ was the final nail in the coffin. That movie was so unbelievably bad it's actually the first movie I ever regret seeing and wished I got my money back for. 

Absolute horse shit of a movie... 

It will take a miracle for the SW IP to recover from what Disney has done to it. 
Animated movies/series might still be good, but as far as live action movies go they need to stay as far away as possible.


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## Fang (Aug 11, 2019)

MShadows said:


> TLJ was the final nail in the coffin. That movie was so unbelievably bad it's actually the first movie I ever regret seeing and wished I got my money back for.
> 
> Absolute horse shit of a movie...
> 
> ...



They pretty much had everything set up to do the same thing with the rebooted Star Wars under Disney's helm and under the leadership of Kathleen Kennedy to make as many spin-offs, side-stories, and sequels for the films with axing the original Lucas Star Wars and its Expanded Universe after 2014. And they completely fucked it up. Most people acknowledged that if or if you didn't like VII/TFA, it somehow made sense to rehash IV/ANH to try and get a new generation of audiences and other people into the franchise but it played on literally drawing its strength and appeal on entirely nostalgia. And in the long run it shows a chunk of what they are doing lacks creativity.

After that, we had Rogue One which some people liked and others didn't since it was gutted with huge post-production changes, Kathleen Kennedy's meddling in it to change how the movie was set and its story direction. But the real stuff that crucified it to most fans was the public-relations comments and idiocy coming out of Disney and Lucas Films. When you have Kennedy and the SWSG as well as various writers, producers, actors/actresses and staff talking about "The Force is Female", Kennedy rejecting other people calling out the nonsense of putting identity politics into Star Wars, etc...there was a dramatic shift.

VIII/TLJ was the straw that finally broke the camel's back. All of their and other stoogie projections on its box office projections failed and fell horribly short of even the most conservative watershed measurements they had, the negative backlash was huge over the treatment of Luke, Rian's entirely combative stance and interactions on twitter and instagram with fans upset over his treatment of Luke (who is STILL by far the most popular Star Wars character to this day since 1977), and the disjointed mess that TLJ's entire "plot" represented. So what happened? Not too mention the moron also kept cheerfully saying he would get his spin-off trilogy but its been over two years and after what TLJ did to the franchise the odds of that ever happening for Rian are so astronomically low its simply a fantasy for him at this point. And don't get me started on how they turned Finn into a literal joke and disregarded his development from TFA into TLJ or Rose's entire character and arc in the movie being a gigantic red herring; relevant to nothing and pandering for an audience that won't spend a dime on the franchise. 

Anyway Solo completely then bombed at the box office and was a complete financial disaster and massive net loss for Disney, which isn't too surprising because a) people were still mad over how bad TLJ was + b) the treatment of Luke and his character being killed off in such a shitty way and finally + c) Solo itself going through multiple directors and writers, and various other production fuckery along with Kathleen feuding with several of the staff during its production.

This isn't getting into the past stuff I've said about how this has left casual and diehard/original fans feeling, the failing of Resistance, the success of Rebels being entirely rooted on support from The Clone Wars series fans, the move to Disney's proprietary streaming and channel service with Disney XD not going the way Disney expecting it and hilarious miscalculations with the toy/gaming industry blowing up in their faces with the crap with the Battlefront 1 EA and especially Battlefront 2 EA loot box scandal and P2W bullshit in a fucking full scale retail game.

They aren't drawing in new fans.
They are failing completely to get kids interested in the franchise.
Their movies are doing consistently worse and worse.
Multiple side projects and spin-offs have either been delayed indefinitely (Obi-Wan & Yoda) or shitcanned entirely.
The toy market started its negative spiral for Star Wars with Rogue One, its entirely failed and flatlined with TLJ and Solo (also helped put Toys R Us into bankruptcy).

If Episode IX/The Rise of Skywalker doesn't turn things around, I won't be surprised in the least the franchise gets put on ice for a number of years.

But what Disney did shows us one thing, no franchise or intellectual property is TOO BIG to fail. When you mishandle it, when you alienate your old fans and fail to bring in new ones, when your staff and workers are actively engaged in feuding and fighting with people over issues they have, that will always make things worse and worse.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Aug 11, 2019)

Saw a blog post that showed hundreds of Galaxys Edge T-shirts have already hit disney outlet stores. $9.99 down from $34.99


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## Fang (Aug 11, 2019)

Wouldn't be surprised.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 11, 2019)

... Does anyone remember "Thumb Wars"?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 12, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Saw a blog post that showed hundreds of Galaxys Edge T-shirts have already hit disney outlet stores. $9.99 down from $34.99


Me, stoically pleasuring myself...


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## dr_shadow (Aug 12, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Aug 13, 2019)

It's an interesting theory, but the title is a bit click-baity. 

The idea that Lucas gets a cut of merchandising makes sense, but is that they Disney is killing off his characters? I doubt it, as it was common knowledge Ford wanted to kill off Han Solo long before Disney got their hands on the properties -- and even in interviews, he seemed to imply that he'd only come back if they did so. Also, wasn't it previously reported/ rumored that Luke wasn't supposed to die in "The Last Jedi", but that RJ decided to do that, which was allegedly part of the reason Treverrow walked away?

I do think Disney's plan was always to kill or retire these characters to push their own, but that's just how long running franchises like this work -- and it wasn't like any of the big three seemed especially enthusiastic about returning in the first place. 

The idea that C3PO had his red arm to dodge paying Lucas royalties is once again interesting, but when why take that away in "The Last Jedi"? Alternatively, it still might've been a merchandising ploy, as I don't see why anyone would buy a C3PO toy if they already have a previous line of toys, unless there is some difference (ie; a red arm). If the red arm didn't catch on, then they'd see no reason to continue it, although this creates a strange continuity error. 

But if Disney is making money, they wouldn't really benefit from trying to screw Lucas out of royalties, unless he was getting most of the money made off of the toys.

Reactions: Like 2


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## ~VK~ (Aug 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> and it wasn't like any of the big three seemed especially enthusiastic about returning in the first place.


Mark hamill was very enthusiastic about returning.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 13, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> Mark hamill was very enthusiastic about returning.



https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/10/harrison-ford-mark-hamill-force-awakens

Admittedly, it appears I was mistaken about Carrie Fischer. But Hamill seemed to have been reluctant as he didn't think they could recapture lightning in a bottle and that they were simply too old. He changed his mind after Ford signed on, because he didn't want to be the only one who said no.


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## ~VK~ (Aug 13, 2019)

Really? All i remember coming from him was enthusiasm about the whole thing when shooting and stuff. Now i understand why he wasn’t really in TFA and died in TLJ. You don’t make disney ask twice


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## MartialHorror (Aug 13, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> Really? All i remember coming from him was enthusiasm about the whole thing when shooting and stuff. Now i understand why he wasn’t really in TFA and died in TLJ. You don’t make disney ask twice



Just because you're reluctant about the part, doesn't mean you're going to be unenthusiastic. How many times do you hear about actors being hesitant, only to turn around and embrace the role?


----------



## Mider T (Aug 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/10/harrison-ford-mark-hamill-force-awakens
> 
> Admittedly, it appears I was mistaken about Carrie Fischer. But Hamill seemed to have been reluctant as he didn't think they could recapture lightning in a bottle and that they were simply too old. He changed his mind after Ford signed on, because he didn't want to be the only one who said no.


Fisher*


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## MartialHorror (Aug 13, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Fisher*



You just love correcting my hastily written posts, don't you?


----------



## Fang (Aug 13, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> Mark hamill was very enthusiastic about returning.



Then after he found out after his treatment was going to be and what TLJ ended up being, he's completely deadpanned Disney Star Wars in general ever since.


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## MShadows (Aug 16, 2019)

Enthusiasm for TLJ was just oozing off Mark Hamill


----------



## Garcher (Aug 16, 2019)

I won't watch the movie, I will only listen to people shitting on it


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 16, 2019)

I'll watch because I'm a fan and stopping when I already seen 2/3rds of the trilogy won't sit right with me.


----------



## Deathbringerpt (Aug 16, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I'll watch because I'm a fan and stopping when I already seen 2/3rds of the trilogy won't sit right with me.



As long as you don't pay for it, I can sympathize with that. Paying money for something that will assuredly be a mediocre to bad movie is just asinine.


----------



## MartialHorror (Aug 16, 2019)

It will be interesting when it comes out. There's either going to be a lot of smug comments here or a lot of people scrambling to spin its box office numbers in their favor. 

I'm surprised there wasn't a new trailer attached to Spider-Man or Lion King. Are there any other big tentpole Disney films they're saving the trailer for?


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 16, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I'll watch because I'm a fan and stopping when I already seen 2/3rds of the trilogy won't sit right with me.


A fan of what?

What narrative?

Why not watch an  art house movie about misery instead?


----------



## MartialHorror (Aug 16, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I'll watch because I'm a fan and stopping when I already seen 2/3rds of the trilogy won't sit right with me.



DON'T BITE, GESY! It's pointless responding to someone who doesn't know what a narrative is.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 16, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> DON'T BITE, GESY! It's pointless responding to someone who doesn't know what a narrative is.


Bite Gesy, you know you are not built for this.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

I feel like a-lot if people are hating on the new trilogy for lacking a plot thread while I think it’s pretty clear that it’s had a plot thread the whole time. The one thing that was never explained in the original movies is Anakin’s birth and why the skywalkers were so powerful. 

The new trilogy has always been setup to tie up that loose end imo. You have Rey who has the similar backstory as Anakin; people seem to be let down because Rey parents are just junk traders, but seem to forget that Anakins mom was also nothing. It’s obvious that Rey was always meant to be born form whatever circumstances led to the birth of Anakin; and the story is going to finally explore and answer the question of how Anakin and now Rey came to being.

And it very much makes sense to bring back Palpatine to explain this as it stands to reason (and this was in legends too) that ether Palpatine or his master was the one responsible for whatever caused Anakin to be born. Probably having to do with Palpatine or his master cheating death, which was also something that was established for a long time in the lore of Star Wars.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I feel like a-lot if people are hating on the new trilogy for lacking a plot thread while I think it’s pretty clear that it’s had a plot thread the whole time. The one thing that was never explained in the original movies is Anakin’s birth and why the skywalkers were so powerful.
> 
> The new trilogy has always been setup to tie up that loose end imo. You have Rey who has the similar backstory as Anakin; people seem to be let down because Rey parents are just junk traders, but seem to forget that Anakins mom was also nothing. It’s obvious that Rey was always meant to be born form whatever circumstances led to the birth of Anakin; and the story is going to finally explore and answer the question of how Anakin and now Rey came to being.
> 
> And it very much makes sense to bring back Palpatine to explain this as it stands to reason (and this was in legends too) that ether Palpatine or his master was the one responsible for whatever caused Anakin to be born. Probably having to do with Palpatine or his master cheating death, which was also something that was established for a long time in the lore of Star Wars.


It's the fucking execution...


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 16, 2019)

People hate the new trilogy because the first one was too safe while the next failed on the risk it took.


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## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> It's the fucking execution...


Can’t tel the execution until the last movie comes out


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Can’t tel the execution until the last movie comes out


You actually can


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## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> You actually can


Not really


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Not really


This movie will not change my opinion on the 2 previous ones lol.


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## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> This movie will not change my opinion on the 2 previous ones lol.


Okay cool good for you; that still doesn’t mean you can properly evaluate the execution of the entire trilogy until you’ve seen the last movie


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay cool good for you; that still doesn’t mean you can properly evaluate the execution of the entire trilogy until you’ve seen the last movie


No one said that they're judging the entire trilogy.


----------



## MartialHorror (Aug 16, 2019)

I actually think the conclusion to a trilogy that was clearly designed to be a trilogy can change how one feels about its predecessors, if the pay-offs make the developments of the first two seem worth it in hindsight.

I liked "The Force Awakens" and "The Last Jedi", but if this one lets me down, it probably will have a ripple effect on how I feel about those. The opposite can technically happen too for a lot of detractors, even if they don't want to admit it, but it's definitely an uphill battle. Hating on Star Wars has become too trendy, so some will spit on it regardless of the quality. Others will hate it simply for its politics, regardless of quality. But at the same time, it's also obvious that the original plans for this trilogy have been scuttled and I doubt Abrams can fix that, so how can the pay-offs be worth it?

If Kylo Ren was lying about Rey's parents, then what was the point of that to begin with? Her parentage (or lack of) was the entire message of the previous movie (that it doesn't matter where you come from). So if they say she's related to Obi Wan or something, that would be a shitty pay-off. But what else is left? "The Last Jedi" closed the majority of open plot threads. Either way, I'm curious how the movie will play out.

lol, I still think of that alleged treatment, where the big reveal was Rey being a reincarnated Anakin. As horrid as that sounds, it was released long before TLJ and did share some similarities with it, so maybe Abrams will dust off that plot thread *shudders*.

Edit: I didn't like the first two Godzilla anime films, but I had to admit that the 3rd entry made me warm up to them a little bit, so who knows!


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Can’t tel the execution until the last movie comes out


Not even Godfather 1 +2 level movie making can save this shit.

It's a bad trilogy.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 16, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> People hate the new trilogy because the first one was too safe while the next failed on the risk it took.


It's like a conspiracy to fuck over the franchise that was fucked by the prequels and further fucked by throwing out the whole EU, valuable video game IP included...


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## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> No one said that they're judging the entire trilogy.


That’s what I said which you responded too...


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Not even Godfather 1 +2 level movie making can save this shit.
> 
> It's a bad trilogy.


This is silly; TFA and TLJ are both good movies, not great, and fans are buthurt because they aren’t great.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That’s what I said which you responded too...


I responded to you saying "Can’t tel the execution until the last movie comes out"

I disagree. If you find most of the trilogy to be sub par and poorly executed, the third film not being released yet doesn't invalidate that claim.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I responded to you saying "Can’t tel the execution until the last movie comes out"
> 
> I disagree. If you find most of the trilogy to be sub par and poorly executed, the third film not being released yet doesn't invalidate that claim.


You can say you find the first 2 films poor but you can’t tell the execution of the whole trilogy till it’s done. Some things that happen in movie 1-2 may be necessary to set up movie 3 or do to things explained to us in movie 3


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You can say you find the first 2 films poor but you can’t tell the execution of the whole trilogy till it’s done. Some things that happen in movie 1-2 may be necessary to set up movie 3 or do to things explained to us in movie 3


If your basketball team is down by 60....



Turrin said:


> This is silly; TFA and TLJ are both good movies, not great, and fans are buthurt because they aren’t great.


History will not remember them as that. Put that away for 50 years and take it to the bank.


----------



## MartialHorror (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You can say you find the first 2 films poor but you can’t tell the execution of the whole trilogy till it’s done. Some things that happen in movie 1-2 may be necessary to set up movie 3 or do to things explained to us in movie 3



Don't bite Turrin! Debating with Gesy is fine, but you shouldn't bother arguing with someone who believes that a movie as good as "The Godfather 1+2" (often regarded as being amongst the best films ever made) wouldn't be able to save a trilogy.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> If your basketball team is down by 60....
> 
> 
> History will not remember them as that. Put that away for 50 years and take it to the bank.


Don’t care what history remembers according your   buthurt


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Don't bite Turrin! Debating with Gesy is fine, but you shouldn't bother arguing with someone who believes that a movie as good as "The Godfather 1+2" (often regarded as being amongst the best films ever made) wouldn't be able to save a trilogy.


Yeah that’s silly as fuck lol


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Don’t care what history remembers


Reality does.

according your   buthurt

WTF does that even mean?


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## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Reality does.
> 
> according your   buthurt
> 
> WTF does that even mean?


That your a buthurt arm chair fanboy, who won’t listen to reason.

Your telling me the Star Wars films are so bad that the third movie couldn’t even make the trilogy average if it’s an amazing movie is ridiculous


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That your a buthurt arm chair fanboy, who won’t listen to reason.
> 
> Your telling me the Star Wars films are so bad that the third movie couldn’t even make the trilogy average if it’s an amazing movie is ridiculous


So, repetition works for you?

But they fucked up so bad....


----------



## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> So, repetition works for you?
> 
> But they fucked up so bad....


Your exaggerating, what did they really fuck up exactly?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Your exaggerating, what did they really fuck up exactly?


I don't even know where to start...

Poe, the one truly cool character they had.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 16, 2019)

oi. I warned you man.

It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong when debating Kamal, you'll look stupid for even trying -- even though you're almost always goinng to be right.


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## Turrin (Aug 16, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> I don't even know where to start...
> 
> Poe, the one truly cool character they had.


Wow your dumb; what an ass claim that is


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## MartialHorror (Aug 16, 2019)

You know, guys, you might want to consider that the points you're trying to argue are very subjective, doom to be different from person to person... and ya'll aren't even trying to give substance to your points.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You can say you find the first 2 films poor but you can’t tell the execution of the whole trilogy till it’s done. Some things that happen in movie 1-2 may be necessary to set up movie 3 or do to things explained to us in movie 3


I wonder what scenes in the 3rd film is gonna make me think "wow! Maybe the Last Jedi wasn't as boring as I thought!"


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 17, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> You know, guys, you might want to consider that the points you're trying to argue are very subjective, doom to be different from person to person... and ya'll aren't even trying to give substance to your points.


This claim could have weight, if you would do other things besides acting like a political partisan.



Turrin said:


> Wow your dumb; what an ass claim that is



Really, we needed goofy ass Holdo and Leia to go all matriarchal on him when he was the most competent person in a last stand situation?

That stupid goofy tone is at odds with the situation of the rebel Alliance 2.0.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 17, 2019)

lol at people making up my politics for me.


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## MShadows (Aug 17, 2019)

The new trilogy started acceptable, but then Rian Jonhson came around with the absolute horse shit of a movie that is TLJ and butchered everything Abrams started. 

TLJ is an objectively bad movie. A very bad one.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 17, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> This claim could have weight, if you would do other things besides acting like a political partisan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No the Garbage claim you made there was that Poe was the only good character in the new trilogy. Ignoring Lea and Han who both delivered great performances; Maz and Rey. Finn is also a good character his roll in the second film was just poorly plotted out.


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## Turrin (Aug 17, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I wonder what scenes in the 3rd film is gonna make me think "wow! Maybe the Last Jedi wasn't as boring as I thought!"


Depends what you found was boring in TLJ. But I imagine that TLJ plot was mostly there to setup the need for one side or the other to go search out the power/knowledge of Sidious. Whether this is something Rey is forced to do; to save the Rebellion now that Luke is dead; or something that Kylo is forced to do his lack of experience (and maybe being haunted by Luke’s Ghost) fucks over the first order now that he’s in charge allowing the Rebellion to slowly overtake him. Basically that movie was there to remove the old wise characters in Luke/Snoke, so we can see how Rey and Kylo perform without Guidance with one of them likely connecting with the Jedi force ghosts and the other going to Sidious. 

The TLJ main problem was simply that they didn’t know what to do with Finn / Poe character and produced mediocre story lines because of it. Which I don’t really blame them for because TFA didn’t really give them much to work with, for those 2 characters. They could have done better and I’m hoping they will, but I can se why those plot lines were hard to write and sympathize with Rion. 

Anyway I thought TFA was a good movie and so was the TLJ, certainly better then the first 2 prequel movies. But when trying to add to trilogy’s that is one of the best one so ever it’s really hard, and the standards are really high.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No the Garbage claim you made there was that Poe was the only good character in the new trilogy. Ignoring Lea and Han who both delivered great performances; Maz and Rey. Finn is also a good character his roll in the second film was just poorly plotted out.


Leia was busy with nonsense.

Han was till smuggling and got killed by his son.

Maz is just an inferior Yoda clone.

Rey is too overpowered...

Great performance dopes not make a great character in itself.



MartialHorror said:


> lol at people making up my politics for me.



Being woke confuses you, Glad to help.


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## Jake CENA (Aug 17, 2019)

Not even Donnie Yen could save this piece of shit


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## Turrin (Aug 18, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Leia was busy with nonsense.
> 
> Han was till smuggling and got killed by his son.
> 
> ...


Please don’t ever quote me again


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## Mider T (Aug 18, 2019)

Kamal was dropped on his head as a baby guys don't mind him.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Kamal was dropped on his head as a baby guys don't mind him.


How the fuck would someone as close minded as you know anything?



Turrin said:


> Please don’t ever quote me again



If i don't, reality will.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Aug 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Please don’t ever quote me again


Funny, I said the same thing not so long ago


----------



## Mider T (Aug 18, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> How the fuck would someone as close minded as you know anything?


Just because that drop cracked open your skull doesn't mean you're open minded.


----------



## dr_shadow (Aug 18, 2019)




----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 18, 2019)

> losing to yourself


----------



## MartialHorror (Aug 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Please don’t ever quote me again



and finally he learns...


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## dr_shadow (Aug 18, 2019)

It's probably been said a couple of times, but I think it's way too soon to have the next Star Wars film come out already in 2022. This franchise should go into quarantine for like 10 years so people have a chance to forget about The Last Jedi and Solo.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 19, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Just because that drop cracked open your skull doesn't mean you're open minded.


Beating consensus opinion means that.

So, you are close, minded. I knew it.


----------



## Kuromaku (Aug 19, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> It's probably been said a couple of times, but I think it's way too soon to have the next Star Wars film come out already in 2022. This franchise should go into quarantine for like 10 years so people have a chance to forget about The Last Jedi and Solo.



But mr_shadow, however will Disney explain to the shareholders why it isn't milking a franchise that left it a few billion in the red at time of purchase? Modern capitalism was a mistake.


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 19, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> But mr_shadow, however will Disney explain to the shareholders why it isn't milking a franchise that left it a few billion in the red at time of purchase? Modern capitalism was a mistake.


The Star Wars brand was uniquelly compatible with a publicly traded company....
But the creative team fucked it all up.


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## MShadows (Aug 19, 2019)

What I'd like to see, not the downright embarrassing fight scene they had in the throne room


----------



## Turrin (Aug 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> and finally he learns...


Yeah the dude is way to buthurt to bother; I understand not liking the new trilogy but to say Poe is a better character then Han, I just can’t with that


----------



## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah the dude is way to buthurt to bother; I understand not liking the new trilogy but to say Poe is a better character then Han, I just can’t with that



WTF does the first sentence even mean?
Han from the sequel trilogy, yes...

In general, Han is better and Han was better before Poe got humiliated.


----------



## Corvida (Aug 19, 2019)

I was six when the original Star Wars movie opened in Spain in 1977 and what is more-it was one the first non cartoon films I was allowed to watch at the cinema.
Mind blown feel short  as what that movie  was to a little kid -girl, besides.
This guy´s right-but Marvel will go the same way


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2019)

MCU will be a 100 year long reign


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

I'll see IX but I sure as fuck won't give Disney money for it. And if the rumors are true that have leaked recently about Palpatine supposedly trying to body-steal Rey then Kylo's bodies, redoing the Dark Empire story arc in a nutshell, and the Jedi becoming known as "Skywalkers" is true, then they really have torpedoed the franchise.


----------



## reiatsuflow (Aug 19, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> MCU will be a 100 year long reign



Marvel goes 20 movies without slipping up, meanwhile star wars and dc can't even go two in a row without tripping down a flight of stairs.


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## Jake CENA (Aug 19, 2019)

this shit doesn't deserve any attention after pulling off this rey stunt and the space janitor thing  and they killed off luke so wtf


----------



## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Marvel goes 20 movies without slipping up, meanwhile star wars and dc can't even go two in a row without tripping down a flight of stairs.



>Captain Marvel
>Spider-Man Homecoming
>Thor 2
>Iron-Man 2
>Avengers 2
>Ant-Man 2

They've had fuck ups though


----------



## Deathbringerpt (Aug 19, 2019)

Fang said:


> *>Captain Marvel*
> >Spider-Man Homecoming
> *>Thor 2*
> >Iron-Man 2
> ...



Bolded are the only ones I completely agree. I like Avengers 2 and Iron Man 2 despite their flaws and Spider Man is a genuinely good Spider Man movie with its biggest flaw being completley dependant on prior knowledge of other Marvel movies that are almost completely unrelated.

Thor 2 is a genuinely shitty movie. It's like Marvel's Man of Steel. Ant-Man 2 shouldn't have had a villain since it brought the movie to a generic slog and Captain Marvel is a misfire in pretty much every way except Samuel.


----------



## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Bolded are the only ones I completely agree. I like Avengers 2 and Iron Man 2 despite their flaws and Spider Man is a genuinely good Spider Man movie with its biggest flaw being completley dependant on prior knowledge of other Marvel movies that are almost completely unrelated.
> 
> Thor 2 is a genuinely shitty movie. It's like Marvel's Man of Steel. Ant-Man 2 shouldn't have had a villain since it brought the movie to a generic slog and Captain Marvel is a misfire in pretty much every way except Samuel.



Avengers 2 was trash. God awful comedy, really set the trend for these movies being 90% CGI clusterfucks focused on explosions and bad quips/one-liners, and the plot being a huge mess. Iron-Man 2 was simply the weakest film out of the IM trilogy and Homecoming was nothing to write home about at all; pop-culture references, forced SJW/cultural diversity with the obligatory ethnic fat sidekick, removing Mary Jane for Gwen Stacy and being generally boring outside of the Vulture. 

So to say again, Marvel has had fucks up, they just haven't spread out to damage the rest of the IP.


----------



## BlazingInferno (Aug 19, 2019)

Am I living in some sort of alternate reality where Fang is more negative than Deathbringerpt? Eh.... probably not.


----------



## reiatsuflow (Aug 19, 2019)

Judging by the success of suicide squad, aquaman, and some of the mediocre marvel movies, superhero movies are filmmaking on easy mode because the audience is already invested and actively rooting for you to succeed.

You'd think it would be the opposite because of expectations, which I think expectations only play into the big guys with established movie series like superman and batman.


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

I like how people think the fad of superhero/capeshit movies are going to be some kind of never ending phase regardless of it coming from Disney/Marvel or Warner Brothers/DC.  People will get tired of them in time at the box office, its just a matter of when more then anything else. Disney succeeding in bringing down Star Wars with what they've done to make such terrible films in the Sequels, the MCU can't be far behind. Especially now that Evans, RDJ, and Johanssen are gone and Larson is the main face with Holland for the MCU.

Just wait and see.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2019)

Cameron already tried that bullshit a few years ago


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

Reminder Weiss claimed Star Wars wouldn't fail back in 2015 with TFA after Disney took it in '12 and now look at Disney, their theme park/Galaxy's Edge was a complete failure; Solo was a huge failure, TLJ killed the fandom pushed OT fans as well as PT ones from caring about the movies, Resistance got fucking CANCELLED because no one gives a shit about getting Disney XD to watch a sub-par soulless Disney exclusive follow up to Rebels and he's still playing apologist for these guys.

Its frankly amazing.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2019)

I'd sacrifice Star Wars (either pre or post Disney) entirely a million times just to get a few more MCU phases


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

We already know that, Weiss kun.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 19, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> MCU will be a 100 year long reign



That sounds terrifying...


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> That sounds terrifying...


Godzilla franchise is still fine after 60+ years


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

Ignoring the fact Godzilla franchise doesn't and isn't chained to the same actors and actresses playing the human cast and the franchise has been built around different generations of the series being set in different continuities with different rules, the MCU can't do that either with how it was built up.

So what works for Godzilla doesn't mean it'll work for the MCU.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 19, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Godzilla franchise is still fine after 60+ years



Yeah, but Godzilla didn't influence the entire industry... and he does sleep from time to time. "Godzilla Raids Again" was reviled and there was a hiatus. "Terror of Mechagodzilla" flopped so there was a hiatus. "Godzilla Final Wars" flopped so there was a hiatus. 

The MCU isn't just a franchise. It's an umbrella of franchises. James Bond has had a sturdier run than Godzilla, but no one complains when we wait 2-5 years between movies.


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, but Godzilla didn't influence the entire industry... and he does sleep from time to time. "Godzilla Raids Again" was reviled and there was a hiatus. "Terror of Mechagodzilla" flopped so there was a hiatus. "Godzilla Final Wars" flopped so there was a hiatus.
> 
> The MCU isn't just a franchise. It's an umbrella of franchises. James Bond has had a sturdier run than Godzilla, but no one complains when we wait 2-5 years between movies.



There was also a 10+ year hiatus between Godzilla: Final Wars and when the western Godzilla showed up in 2014. And before the  Millennium series, the Heisei series ended in Dec 1995 with Godzilla vs Destroyah and the 2000s wouldn't pick up again with the Millenium series till another 5 years later. Toho also on the record knows that for every couple of films they put out, they have to put the series to rest so the audiences aren't over saturated and inundated with movies, shows, and merchandise and returns diminish at the box office. Bandai/Sunrise learned this the hard way with Gundam in the 90s too.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, but Godzilla didn't influence the entire industry... and he does sleep from time to time. "Godzilla Raids Again" was reviled and there was a hiatus. "Terror of Mechagodzilla" flopped so there was a hiatus. "Godzilla Final Wars" flopped so there was a hiatus.
> 
> The MCU isn't just a franchise. It's an umbrella of franchises. James Bond has had a sturdier run than Godzilla, but no one complains when we wait 2-5 years between movies.


MCU will have its ups and downs, but it will adapt and endure 


Perhaps become a marvel cinematic multiverse  later


----------



## MartialHorror (Aug 19, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> MCU will have its ups and downs, but it will adapt and endure
> 
> 
> Perhaps become a marvel cinematic multiverse  later



I don't disagree. But it will eventually have to take a rest.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2019)

Feige will know what to do and when

I just hope they find a way to clone him


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## MartialHorror (Aug 19, 2019)

As much as I dont want the MCU to remain on top for the rest of my life... I'd happily take that trend over the Disney live-action remake trend...


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2019)

I have not seen a single live action remake so far 


Im glad Mouse is making bank tho


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

Lmao

Edit: Weiss kun, you can keep spamming old and optimistic ratings at my posts, but the truth is still there which is why you are so butthurt over it.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 19, 2019)

Ugh, so many franchises and reboots... yet I still can't get a new "Friday the 13th" movie...


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## MartialHorror (Aug 19, 2019)

Suigetsu used to spam rate my posts old all the time too... Speaking of which, where is Suigetsu? The thread doesn't feel complete without him. 50% of the reason I keep coming back is in hope of seeing him rant about the Jewish league of assassins who run Hollywood.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2019)

A post without a rating isnt a real post


And Soygetsu will turn up probably after the next trailer or something


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Suigetsu used to spam rate my posts old all the time too... Speaking of which, where is Suigetsu? The thread doesn't feel complete without him. 50% of the reason I keep coming back is in hope of seeing him rant about the Jewish league of assassins who run Hollywood.



I take it that when someone can't give a rebuttal or refutation to what someone else says, that's why they immediately run to spamming ratings so I take it more as a badge of respect when it comes from him. Also probably explains why Weiss made his profile private. Either way, the fandom "menace" won the war with Disney and if even half the rumors about IX are true, its going to be nearly as dumb as TLJ, palpatine or no palpatine involved.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2019)

Mouse will keep making many more movies for you to bitch at 



Also ratings are a fast and efficient system

Walls of text are awful, they need to die


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

Nah


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## MartialHorror (Aug 19, 2019)

Why do people keep calling you Weiss, Shiba?


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Why do people keep calling you Weiss, Shiba?



Changed his identity


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Why do people keep calling you Weiss, Shiba?



His original name was Weiss. Or at least it was one of his earlier ones.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 19, 2019)

He will always be Fluttershy to me


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## MartialHorror (Aug 19, 2019)

Oh, sort of like how Kamal changed his name to Kansas, but everyone calls him Kamal...

Wait, this doesn't mean you're the Star Wars fandom's equivalent of Kamal, right Shiba?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 20, 2019)

Kamal is the star wars equivalent of Kamal


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## MartialHorror (Aug 20, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Kamal is the star wars equivalent of Kamal



I meant the new Star Wars movies. You like them. Kamal hates them. But together, you are one being... like in the Dark Crystal.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 20, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> MCU will have its ups and downs, but it will adapt and endure
> 
> 
> Perhaps become a marvel cinematic multiverse  later


If Disney could fuck up SW....



Shiba D. Inu said:


> Mouse will keep making many more movies for you to bitch at
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Efficient for what?

No one gives a fuck.

Disney and LeBron emoticon are great fit based on the last Lakers season.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> together, you are one being...


Delete this before i neg u


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## MartialHorror (Aug 20, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Delete this before i neg you.





Shiba D. Inu said:


> If Disney could fuck up SW....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



NOOOOOOO! THEY'RE MERGING! THE UNIVERSE IS IMPLODING!


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> NOOOOOOO! THEY'RE MERGING! THE UNIVERSE IS IMPLODING!



Shiba has a spiral MH, don't make him mad


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 20, 2019)

I'll try to soothe him with tifa pictures until he forgets what you've done.



Whoops wrong folder.


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 20, 2019)

i appreciate that


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## Jake CENA (Aug 20, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Judging by the success of suicide squad, aquaman, and some of the mediocre marvel movies, superhero movies are filmmaking on easy mode because the audience is already invested and actively rooting for you to succeed.
> 
> You'd think it would be the opposite because of expectations, which I think expectations only play into the big guys with established movie series like superman and batman.



Suicide squad was a success??


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 20, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> I'll try to soothe him with tifa pictures until he forgets what you've done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You just brought back weird childhood memories for me


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 20, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> You just brought back weird childhood memories for me


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## MartialHorror (Aug 20, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> Suicide squad was a success??



Technically, yes. It made money, although I remember thinking at the time that even WB execs were surprised considering how negative the reaction was. But it did gross almost 750 million on a 175 million budget.


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## Jake CENA (Aug 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Technically, yes. It made money, although I remember thinking at the time that even WB execs were surprised considering how negative the reaction was. But it did gross almost 750 million on a 175 million budget.



lmao it made 750m? i'm sure that info is fake  

anyway, i hope they cancel the sequel. it's that terrible lol it doesn't need a sequel


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## MartialHorror (Aug 20, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> lmao it made 750m? i'm sure that info is fake
> 
> anyway, i hope they cancel the sequel. it's that terrible lol it doesn't need a sequel



I've never seen any proof that the studios can fudge the box office numbers that much, although they sometimes will try to lie about budgets. From what I understand, studios will hop on the Sunday box office numbers because all of the ticket purchases haven't been tallied up and they're going off of estimates, which is usually higher than the final number and can make them look better. But these numbers aren't significant (maybe 1 or 2 million tops) and usually, the estimates are more accurate than not. But if the studio is lying, then it has to be a conspiracy because they'd roped in movie theater chains, online ticketing companies, their own investors... and the companies who actually monitor box office receipts. Also, if they're caught lying, they could be audited. I've always wondered if part of the reason why studios are no longer allowed to own theaters is because they were lying in their tax returns. 

So while not impossible, it is unlikely. I have heard that China inflates the numbers of its own domestic movies though. I believe "Yip Man 3" landed in hot water for it. But China's Government seemingly controls everything, so they're less likely to get in serious trouble for it. 

Either way, Will Smith is a huge international star, even if his drawing power has dried up a bit in the U.S. Even "Men in Black III" ended up doing unusually well outside of America, even though I believe it tanked over here.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 20, 2019)

To continue on this thread --

I remember "Captain Marvel" coming out to some controversy because various people were accusing Disney of buying out all the tickets. The argument was that it pre-sold heavily and opened to empty theaters. The big hole in this logic though is that theater chains rely mostly on concessions. If Disney or anyone else was doing this, they'd have to offer a much bigger incentive. Furthermore, empty theaters are common depending on where you live. My theater is almost always half empty for new releases. I only ever see sold out crowds when I do an IMAX viewing. Other theaters might double book based on popularity, especially areas with dense populations. "Endgame" also got some accusations for this, but if they're selling out too fast, theaters will cancel showings of dying movies on their last legs and play "Endgame" instead. 

This isn't even considering how f@cking stupid it would be to pay hundreds of millions of dollars in tickets... nor how they'd have to record those losses by the end of their fiscal year. 

WITH THAT SAID, it is a growing concern by how well studios have learned to manipulate social media in their favor. There was a time when they used to make up professional reviews to promote their movies, but you can't do that anymore with the rise of critics, so they probably do spam positive reviews from (fake) general moviegoers. I've also heard stories of negative reviews of hyped movies being pushed down on youtube, while favorable reviews get promoted. Bots are definitely a thing. It's also why their estimates are usually higher than the actual numbers, because it builds up hype. 

The sad truth is that movie goers are easily influenced by hype. A good marketing campaign can make a mediocre or even bad movie do well.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 20, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> lmao it made 750m? i'm sure that info is fake
> 
> anyway, i hope they cancel the sequel. it's that terrible lol it doesn't need a sequel


It's a great concept and the studio butchered the original in editing.

It was not Ayer's vision.


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## Jake CENA (Aug 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> To continue on this thread --
> 
> I remember "Captain Marvel" coming out to some controversy because various people were accusing Disney of buying out all the tickets. The argument was that it pre-sold heavily and opened to empty theaters. The big hole in this logic though is that theater chains rely mostly on concessions. If Disney or anyone else was doing this, they'd have to offer a much bigger incentive. Furthermore, empty theaters are common depending on where you live. My theater is almost always half empty for new releases. I only ever see sold out crowds when I do an IMAX viewing. Other theaters might double book based on popularity, especially areas with dense populations. "Endgame" also got some accusations for this, but if they're selling out too fast, theaters will cancel showings of dying movies on their last legs and play "Endgame" instead.
> 
> ...



Good point. I actually see all these movies even when I know that it will totally suck. The only three movies that I never seen in the cinemas were Man of Steel, Batman v Superman and Antman 1.


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## Jake CENA (Aug 20, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> It's a great concept and the studio butchered the original in editing.
> 
> It was not Ayer's vision.



Great concept? Like killing off the original characters and replacing them with incompetent ones? The entire series should have ended a decade ago. The new movies were unneccessary. But of course there’s corporate greed so fml.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 20, 2019)

Also, it doesn't look like the new Suicide Squad is actually going to be a sequel, as Will Smith isn't returning. It seems like they're aiming for a soft reboot.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 21, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> Great concept? Like killing off the original characters and replacing them with incompetent ones? The entire series should have ended a decade ago. The new movies were unneccessary. But of course there’s corporate greed so fml.


They are  sociopaths, not like they are reliable.
In DC comics no is really dead.
Why is the idea of a Suicide Squad movie hurting you?


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## Jake CENA (Aug 21, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> They are  sociopaths, not like they are reliable.
> In DC comics no is really dead.
> Why is the idea of a Suicide Squad movie hurting you?



Because the first one totally sucks and Joker was literally a joke character


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 21, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> Because the first one totally sucks and Joker was literally a joke character


Does it mean the second one will?
Shoot me i liked that Joker, if not the movie around it.


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## Jake CENA (Aug 21, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Does it mean the second one will?
> Shoot me i liked that Joker, if not the movie around it.



of course, it will. it's damaged comics what do u expect?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 21, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> of course, it will. it's damaged comics what do u expect?


Sorry, idgf about DC vs Marvel.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 21, 2019)

there is no DC vs Marvel
it would imply that they are ~equals


there is Marvel and everything else, non-Marvel

Reactions: Like 1


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## Garcher (Aug 21, 2019)

can we stop talking about comic bullshit and get back to shitting on the sequels

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jake CENA (Aug 21, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> Sorry, idgf about DC vs Marvel.



since when you were under the impression that there's dc vs marvel?

damaged comics is nothing. they were never a competition

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 21, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> since when you were under the impression that there's dc vs marvel?
> 
> damaged comics is nothing. they were never a competition


This is like some Celtics vs Lakers shit here.


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## Son Of Man (Aug 21, 2019)

Sith trooper hype


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## MartialHorror (Aug 23, 2019)

lol, a Star Wars hotel...


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## Mob (Aug 23, 2019)

was cleaning my room yesterday and I found cinema ticket of force awakens  from 2015

Reactions: Like 3


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 24, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 24, 2019)

sheev daddy !


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## Karma (Aug 24, 2019)

They went from an ambiguous laugh to putting him in promotional material?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 24, 2019)




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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 24, 2019)

Karma said:


> They went from an ambiguous laugh to putting him in promotional material?


Daddy makes a lot of $$ !


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 24, 2019)

Lol I'm still laughing at this...what was the point of Snoke?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 24, 2019)




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## Skaddix (Aug 24, 2019)

That poster is TCW quality lol.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 24, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> sheev daddy !


When you fucked your basketball team so bad you need to unretire Ray Allen to get some shooting.


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## MrPopo (Aug 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Lol I'm still laughing at this...what was the point of Snoke?


He was there to subvert your expectations


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 24, 2019)

MrPopo said:


> He was there to subvert your expectations


And what is bringing back Palpatine just to play the same role supposed to do?


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> And what is bringing back Palpatine just to play the same role supposed to do?


The power of failure.


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## Son Of Man (Aug 24, 2019)

We're all skywalkers


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 24, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Aug 24, 2019)

Okay, that Mandalorian trailer was pretty bad-ass...


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## Palm Siberia (Aug 24, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> That poster is TCW quality lol.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 25, 2019)




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## dr_shadow (Aug 25, 2019)

WTH, is this animated? Palpatine looks like a cartoon character.


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## MShadows (Aug 25, 2019)

Palpatine looks like shit on that poster. 

I guess Ian McDiarmin didn’t wanna appear in this shitty movie so they had to animate his character.


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## Skaddix (Aug 25, 2019)

Jesus Christ I think Daisy Ridley is a Vampire. She is so fucking pale.


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## MShadows (Aug 25, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Jesus Christ I think Daisy Ridley is a Vampire. She is so fucking pale.


That’s what happens when you sell your soul to the mouse.


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## Deathbringerpt (Aug 25, 2019)

Karma said:


> They went from an ambiguous laugh to putting him in promotional material?



Exactly what was ambiguous about NO ONE EVER REALLY DIES, NARF followed by Emperor's Evil Laugh?

Also, that poster looks like it's from an animated show, not a fucking Star Wars movie. It's hilarious.


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## MShadows (Aug 25, 2019)

Does this movie include an angry sex scene between Rey and Ben Swolo so they can sort their awkwardness out?


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## Kuromaku (Aug 25, 2019)

I think they might have wanted to evoke the old illustrated posters, but this one turned out looking like a video game box cover.


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## Garcher (Aug 25, 2019)

Mr Galaxywide is going to embarrass Sheev


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## Karma (Aug 25, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Exactly what was ambiguous about NO ONE EVER REALLY DIES


His involvement in the film.

The poster makes it seem like this nibba has been running around the galaxy causing mischief the entire time. The laugh made only made it seem like he would play a small, but important part in this story.


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## dr_shadow (Aug 25, 2019)

Palpatine looks like a Moomin character.


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## Deathbringerpt (Aug 25, 2019)

Karma said:


> His involvement in the film.
> 
> The poster makes it seem like this nibba has been running around the galaxy causing mischief the entire time. *The laugh made only made it seem like he would play a small, but important part in this story.*



Actually, it made it seem that he would be the next villain front and center because the story right now literally doesn't fucking have one. This is just the natural next step. Star Wars has 0 subtlety these days, dude.


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## MShadows (Aug 25, 2019)

I don’t have any expectations whatsoever for this train wreck, all I want to see is if Sheev will deliver us some more memes.


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 25, 2019)

Despite everything I do like ray and kylo. They were well cast. Good costumes too.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 25, 2019)

Reylo


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## Deathbringerpt (Aug 25, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Despite everything I do like ray and kylo. They were well cast. Good costumes too.



That's the annoying part. The first movie set up some really interesting characters and relationships that could've been used in a really interesting way. Then the Last Jedi happened.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 25, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Palpatine looks like shit on that poster.
> 
> I guess Ian McDiarmin didn’t wanna appear in this shitty movie so they had to animate his character.



Er... the entire poster looks animated... Aren't most of the posters for Star Wars animated?

It is a shitty poster though. Shame too, as Star Wars used to have awesome posters... although I guess it's a dying artform these days.


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## dr_shadow (Aug 26, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Er... the entire poster looks animated... Aren't most of the posters for Star Wars animated?
> 
> It is a shitty poster though. Shame too, as Star Wars used to have awesome posters... although I guess it's a dying artform these days.



We mean that Palpatine doesn't look like a photorealistic drawing of Ian McDermaid. He looks like a CGI caricature with exaggerated, "cuter" features.


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## Kuromaku (Aug 26, 2019)

Unfortunately, Drew Struzan is pretty much retired at this point, and old school illustrated posters aren't exactly as common as they used to be (a damn shame, given that any work evoking an earlier time or calling back to historically appreciated genres (i.e. Star Wars) would benefit from just that). Between this, the release dates of the movies, and a few other minor elements, you get the feeling that Disney is failing the 'brown M&M test' as it pertains to the franchise.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Aug 26, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Rukia (Aug 26, 2019)

Rey kind of has to turn to the darkside.  Otherwise there isn’t enough content for a third film.


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## Shark Skin (Aug 26, 2019)

Half of the "special" look was stuff from previous movies. The Star Wars franchise is fucked.


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## blakstealth (Aug 26, 2019)

sick saber


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## Vault (Aug 26, 2019)

Rukia said:


> Rey kind of has to turn to the darkside.  Otherwise there isn’t enough content for a third film.


Yeah a heel turn at the end of the trilogy makes no sense.  they just want to pad the runtime  unbelievable

They really don't have a clue with this trilogy and it's showing.


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 26, 2019)

Still has good music though.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 26, 2019)

Seems like Rey has the ability to call upon past force users like the Avatar and Palpy ends up possessing her.


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## Son Of Man (Aug 26, 2019)

Disney really trying to win over the asian market

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rukia (Aug 26, 2019)

Vault said:


> Yeah a heel turn at the end of the trilogy makes no sense.  they just want to pad the runtime  unbelievable
> 
> They really don't have a clue with this trilogy and it's showing.


Darth Plagueis is still alive dude.  Biding his time.


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## Son Of Man (Aug 26, 2019)

I think rey is a clone made from jedi and sith holocrons/dna


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## dr_shadow (Aug 26, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> I think rey is a clone made from jedi and sith holocrons/dna



I think she's a clone made from J.J. Abrams holocrons and Rian Johnson DNA.


----------



## Overwatch (Aug 26, 2019)

2/3 of the trailer is a fucking nostalgia trip. This just reeks of desperation. Especially, reminding us of the fucking prequels. 

But if nothing else, I’ve finally come to realize that with the possible exception of the KOTOR games and Rogue One, everything that comes after the original trilogy is a biblical fuck-up.

On to greener pastures.


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## Fang (Aug 26, 2019)

The movie poster looks awful, they actually and unironically were so lazy they superimposed the face of a toy Palpatine in the background. But I think the funniest thing is the new trailer is barely trending at #6 on YouTube with less than 750k or so views on top of the fact its like 50% just recycling old iconic scenes from the Prequels and Originals.

"Let the past die."

lol

edit: lmao they barely hit 1.6 million views in like 5 hours


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## Fang (Aug 26, 2019)

Rukia said:


> Rey kind of has to turn to the darkside.  Otherwise there isn’t enough content for a third film.



99% certain that was just a Force Vision and not going to actually happen outside of a mind/dream sequence.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 26, 2019)

blakstealth said:


> sick saber



Pong Krell had similar folding lightsabers in _The Clone Wars. 
_
Question is whether the scene of Rey at the end is a vision or reality.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> The movie poster looks awful, they actually and unironically were so lazy they superimposed the face of a toy Palpatine in the background. But I think the funniest thing is the new trailer is barely trending at #6 on YouTube with less than 750k or so views on top of the fact its like 50% just recycling old iconic scenes from the Prequels and Originals.
> 
> "Let the past die."
> 
> ...


You think that was lazy...


----------



## blakstealth (Aug 26, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> Pong Krell had similar folding lightsabers in _The Clone Wars.
> _


ah yes,the fuckboi general. I remember double sided lightsabers, but didn't know they folded.


----------



## Jake CENA (Aug 26, 2019)

Shark Skin said:


> Half of the "special" look was stuff from previous movies. The Star Wars franchise is fucked.



it has been this way since TFA

rey is the biggest ass pull. worse than naruto and ferry tail combined


----------



## Catalyst75 (Aug 26, 2019)

blakstealth said:


> ah yes,the fuckboi general. I remember double sided lightsabers, but didn't know they folded.




They're folded when they're holstered. He unfolds them when he activates them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Aug 26, 2019)

Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard said:


> You think that was lazy...



Yeah that's bad but there's a difference between a marketing poster for a  triple A movie production vs a spin-off book cover for a spin-off video game


----------



## Catalyst75 (Aug 26, 2019)

To discuss other points of the trailer, I am fairly certain the orbital bombardment seen confirms the Onager-class Star Destroyer will be in the film, which confirms what we heard about the hidden fleet having ships with planet-destroying weapons.


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## Rukia (Aug 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> 99% certain that was just a Force Vision and not going to actually happen outside of a mind/dream sequence.


Sounds like something they will do if they want to keep the series on the boring track it has been on so far.


----------



## Pilaf (Aug 26, 2019)

Overwatch said:


> 2/3 of the trailer is a fucking nostalgia trip. This just reeks of desperation. Especially, reminding us of the fucking prequels.
> 
> But if nothing else, I’ve finally come to realize that with the possible exception of the KOTOR games and Rogue One, everything that comes after the original trilogy is a biblical fuck-up.
> 
> On to greener pastures.




You better put some respeck on Shadows of the Empire and the Thrawn trilogy.


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## dr_shadow (Aug 26, 2019)

Not sure what the utility of a folding lightsaber would be.

Unless you put in a cord and make it light-cucks.


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## Fang (Aug 26, 2019)

Rukia said:


> Sounds like something they will do if they want to keep the series on the boring track it has been on so far.



Of course they will. Its a gigantic red herring to trick people into thinking Rey will actually become a Sith Lord or gets possessed by Palpatine. They are struggling hard with keeping interest afloat after the huge disaster that was Solo and the failings of TLJ splitting fans even more from the Sequel Trilogy. 

Hell, did you see the little sequence toward the end of the new trailer of Kylo and Rey dueling on the bridge across the ocean? 100% reminds me of paralleling that with Anakin vs Obi-Wan's duel mid-way on Mustafar in Revenge of the Sith.



vs


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## Garcher (Aug 26, 2019)

their duel won't come close to Obi Wan vs Hayden


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 26, 2019)

Palps vs Yoda was > Obi Wan vs Anakin


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## Fang (Aug 26, 2019)

Garcher said:


> their duel won't come close to Obi Wan vs Hayden



Not like there are any notable or iconic or decently good duels in the Sequels to begin with but maybe this movie will change that


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## MartialHorror (Aug 26, 2019)

The Yoda Vs Palpatine fight might be the best fight in the entire Star Wars saga, although "Vader Vs Luke" in episode 5 was pretty great. I did like Rey Vs Kylo fight too, but admittedly... I don't remember it very well.  

I didn't like Obi Wan Vs Anakin as their movements just looked too silly. I get what Lucas was aiming for, as the prequels seemed to be more inspired by Chinese choreography, in contrast to the OT's Japanese choreography, but it looks awkward.


----------



## reiatsuflow (Aug 26, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> The Yoda Vs Palpatine fight might be the best fight in the entire Star Wars saga





MartialHorror said:


> I didn't like Obi Wan Vs Anakin as their movements just looked too silly.



Hoisted with his own petard


----------



## Fang (Aug 26, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> The Yoda Vs Palpatine fight might be the best fight in the entire Star Wars saga, although "Vader Vs Luke" in episode 5 was pretty great. I did like Rey Vs Kylo fight too, but admittedly... I don't remember it very well.
> 
> I didn't like Obi Wan Vs Anakin as their movements just looked too silly. I get what Lucas was aiming for, as the prequels seemed to be more inspired by Chinese choreography, in contrast to the OT's Japanese choreography, but it looks awkward.



I don't see anything Chinese about the duels in the PT, most of the fight choreography was directed by Nick Gillard for the swordsmanship which was based off equal measures of Japanese dueling and traditional European swordmanship with unarmed combat like kicks, throws, and grapples thrown in. Also weird how you might say Yoda vs Palpatine might be the best fight when it starts off with a lot of spinning around and jumps. 

I still say Luke vs Vader in V and VI and Anakin vs Obi-Wan in III are the best duels.


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## Pilaf (Aug 26, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Not sure what the utility of a folding lightsaber would be.
> 
> Unless you put in a cord and make it light-cucks.




That one traitor Jedi in the Clone Wars series had folding lightsabers, I think. The guy of the same race as the fat guy who owned the diner and told Obi Wan about Kamino. I don't know the names of all these obscure characters because I've had sex before.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Karma (Aug 26, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> light-cucks


*chucks


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## MartialHorror (Aug 26, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Hoisted with his own petard



... How?



Fang said:


> I don't see anything Chinese about the duels in the PT, most of the fight choreography was directed by Nick Gillard for the swordsmanship which was based off equal measures of Japanese dueling and traditional European swordmanship with unarmed combat like kicks, throws, and grapples thrown in. Also weird how you might say Yoda vs Palpatine might be the best fight when it starts off with a lot of spinning around and jumps.
> 
> I still say Luke vs Vader in V and VI and Anakin vs Obi-Wan in III are the best duels.



There are too many flips and showy displays that aren't either Japanese or European. If you watch a wuxia from that time period, you'll see very similar fight choreography. Although it's possible Lucas was always striving for a blend and the 1990's simply gave him the technology required to do a lot of that stuff, as Luke has some pretty pronounced flips in ESB.

As for why I like Yoda Vs Palpatine but not the others, a lot of it is probably just context. There might be a lot of flipping around and yes, much of it looks silly (I didn't like fighting Yoda even as a kid), but it always seems built around Ian McDiarmid's performance. He obviously is not going to be able to do a lot physically, especially against a CGI effect, so most of their fight is built around his awesome reactions... and the awesome music too. The only real bad part to me is when Yoda throws Palp over his chair, as the shot looks more comedic than dramatic and it's clearly a stunt double. 

With Anakin Vs Obi Wan, there's just too many moments that take me out of it. I actually just went back and watched it on youtube, and it's pretty great until they start doing the hand-to-hand stuff. Obi Wan seemingly lets Ani drop kick him, which... fine, maybe he just didn't want to cut his protege in half. But Ani subsequently running into Obi Wan's kick almost looks like a botch, it's so ridiculously telegraphed. After that, it just never really recovers for me. I liked that shot of the lava erupting behind them though. 

It's strange, I feel the same way about the Obi Wan Vs Anakin fight as I did when I first saw it upon release, yet the Darth Maul fight riveted me as a kid... and I think it kind of sucks now... Tastes are unpredictable, I guess.

I will say this though, as much as it pains me to say it... "The Last Jedi" still has worse choreography.


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## Rukia (Aug 26, 2019)

Too late to salvage the Rey character?  Thoughts??


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 26, 2019)

Rukia said:


> Too late to salvage the Rey character?  Thoughts??


Kylo just needs to dick her down

right @~Gesy~  ?


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## MartialHorror (Aug 26, 2019)

Rukia said:


> Too late to salvage the Rey character?  Thoughts??



Anything can be salvaged. It's just not easy.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 26, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Kylo just needs to dick her down
> 
> right @~Gesy~  ?


Yup, seems like sexual repression to me!


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## Fang (Aug 26, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> ... How?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't see how flips are Chinese only as a thing. I like Anakin vs Obi-Wan, the swordplay is clearly a good mixture of Japanese and European sword fighting, with modern injections of unarmed combat thrown in which has always been a thing in the Prequels from Maul constantly doing kicks against Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, to Qui-Gon doing a literal bitchslap moment on Maul to knock him down a pg, literally. Nothing I have seen as a Star Wars fan has ever had  comparable kinetics, energy, or momentum with the pacing in a fight like Anakin vs Obi-Wan had. 

And TLJ has objectively awful fight choreography so I'm not sure why that would be painful to admit on.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 26, 2019)

But his physical presence was an illusion; the truth of him could be seen only in the Force.

In the Force, he was a fountain of light.

"Pity your new disciple I do; so lately an apprentice, so soon without a Master."

"Why, Master Yoda, what a delightful surprise! Welcome!" The voice of the shadow hummed with anticipation. "Let me be the first to wish you Happy Empire Day!"

"Find it happy, you will not. Nor will the murderer you call Vader."

"Ah." The shadow stepped closer to the light. "So that is the threat I felt. Who is it, if I may ask? Who have you sent to kill him?"

"Enough it is that you know your own destroyer."

"Oh, pish, Master Yoda. It wouldn't be Kenobi, would it? Please say it's Kenobi-Lord Vader gets such a thrill from killing people who care for him ..."

Behind the shadow, some meters away, Mas Amedda-the Chagrian toady who was Speaker of the Galactic Senate-heard a whisper in Palpatine's voice. Flee.

He did.

Neither light nor shadow gave his exit a glance.

"So easily slain, Obi-Wan is not."

"Neither are you, apparently; but that is about to change." The shadow took another step, and another.

A lightsaber appeared, green as sunlight in a forest. "The test of that, today will be."

"Even a fraction of the dark side is more power than your Jedi arrogance can conceive; living in the light, you have never seen the depth of the darkness."

The shadow spread arms that made its sleeves into black wings.

"Until now."

Lightning speared from outstretched hands, and the battle was on.

There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .

The end came with astonishing suddenness.

The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength. The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow-Half a second too slow.

The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell.

He fell a long way.

The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod's rail.


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 26, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> But his physical presence was an illusion; the truth of him could be seen only in the Force.
> 
> In the Force, he was a fountain of light.
> 
> ...



smh, so close


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## MartialHorror (Aug 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> I don't see how flips are Chinese only as a thing. I like Anakin vs Obi-Wan, the swordplay is clearly a good mixture of Japanese and European sword fighting, with modern injections of unarmed combat thrown in which has always been a thing in the Prequels from Maul constantly doing kicks against Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, to Qui-Gon doing a literal bitchslap moment on Maul to knock him down a pg, literally. Nothing I have seen as a Star Wars fan has ever had  comparable kinetics, energy, or momentum with the pacing in a fight like Anakin vs Obi-Wan had.
> 
> *And TLJ has objectively awful fight choreography so I'm not sure why that would be painful to admit on*.



Because I normally consider the sequels to be better than the prequels. 

Flips aren't exclusive to Chinese, but Samurai movies generally don't have them, especially the ones which inspired Lucas. I admittedly don't know much about European sword-fighting, other than fencing and Errol Flynn movies. I guess I can see traces of the latter, but I'd still insist that at their core, they're wuxia inspired. 

Wuxia had people floating around in the air long before Star Wars was doing it, the flashy showboating is something I really only see in Chinese movies. Chinese-styled choreography was on the rise around the time period, thanks to the explosive popularity of John Woo, Jackie Chan and Yuen Woo-ping.


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## Son Of Man (Aug 26, 2019)

Sith Rey has a ring on her finger and so did snoke. Maybe how palps controls people?


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## MartialHorror (Aug 26, 2019)

I just saw the trailer and I don't like the over-reliance on nostalgia.

But I did really like the rendition of the score, especially at the end.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 27, 2019)

I dont think that was a regular trailer per se

Just some d23 special event video


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## Mob (Aug 27, 2019)

Sith Ray scene was pure cringe


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## dr_shadow (Aug 27, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> thanks to the explosive popularity of John Woo, Jackie Chan and Yuen Woo-ping.



>Mid 2000's
>John Woo
>Jackie Chan

Think you're chronologically confused here, bro.

Both Woo and Chan peaked in the 80's, so it's more likely that Revenge of the Sith (2005) was drawing on Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon (2000), Hero (2002), and House of Flying Daggers (2004).


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## MartialHorror (Aug 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> >Mid 2000's
> >John Woo
> >Jackie Chan
> 
> ...



In the U.S, Jackie Chan started to get big with "Rumble in the Bronx" in 1996. John Woo was finding success with the likes of "Face Off" and "Broken Arrow" (1996-1997). Lethal Weapon 4 (1998) seemed to be the beginning of the rise of Yuen Woo-ping (and Jet Li) in the U.S and the Matrix came out the same year as "Phantom Menace". "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (2000)" was developed primarily for western audiences, even being co-produced by an American studio, showing that the appetite was already there. 

It's not about peaking, it's about exposure. In 1997, Tsui Hark went to Hollywood. In 1997, Ronny Yu went to Hollywood. In 1996, Ringo Lam went to Hollywood. In 1998, Chow Yun-Fat went to Hollywood. Sammo Hung's "Martial Law" TV series started in 1998. This didn't come out of nowhere. Hollywood had been drawing influence from them for awhile, it was just in the mid-late 1990's that it became more explicit.


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## Fang (Aug 27, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Because I normally consider the sequels to be better than the prequels.



lol

Everyone has their opinion but personally I consider the sequels to be absolute trash.



> Flips aren't exclusive to Chinese, but Samurai movies generally don't have them, especially the ones which inspired Lucas. I admittedly don't know much about European sword-fighting, other than fencing and Errol Flynn movies. I guess I can see traces of the latter, but I'd still insist that at their core, they're wuxia inspired.
> 
> Wuxia had people floating around in the air long before Star Wars was doing it, the flashy showboating is something I really only see in Chinese movies. Chinese-styled choreography was on the rise around the time period, thanks to the explosive popularity of John Woo, Jackie Chan and Yuen Woo-ping.



Flips, somersaults, and leaps have always been in Star Wars movies since the Original Trilogy. The fighting isn't overly comically stylized like wuxia/Hong Kong style martial arts movies like what you get with the average Jet Li movie for example.


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## Deathbringerpt (Aug 27, 2019)

The sequels are leagues above the prequels, which isn't any sort of achievement in any way, shape or form.


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## Deathbringerpt (Aug 27, 2019)

Remember when Luke finished his training and he was force chocking pig men and threatening alien gangsters that he would fucking murder everyone unless they played ball? That was a pretty organic way of showing that Luke was tapping into the dark side of the force to establish that link between him and Darth Vader. 

Now we have Rey cosplaying as the Emperor while MOM SAID IT'S MY TURN TO USE DARTH MAUL'S LIGHTSABER. Again, all pretty great ideas but fucking horrible execution. Nothing about this trailer feels that it's a natural conclusion to what happened in the previous 2 movies.


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## BlueDemon (Aug 27, 2019)

Her becoming a Sith is a Red Herring. Unless they're doing this since everyone expected her to found a new "neutral" school.


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 27, 2019)

If palp can control her somehow it starts making more sense because now kylo gets something to do, which is turn rey back to the light. Which would be a tidy arc.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 27, 2019)

like I said - a good dicking will purge the dark side out of her system


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 27, 2019)

Speaking of star wars romance, check out this scene between rose and finn from the novelization.



> Finn: "We have to take out that cannon.”
> 
> Poe nodded, smiling at Finn. And Rose grinned.
> 
> ...


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 27, 2019)




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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 27, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> like I said - a good dicking will purge the dark side out of her system


Yay, team wokeness will also hate this shit trilogy.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 27, 2019)

I do find it amusing how people are taking the image of Rey dressed as a sith seriously.

I mean -- has everyone forgotten about "Rogue One" using the image of its heroine dressed as an Imperial Officer? I don't even think that ended up in the movie, lol.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> lol
> 
> Everyone has their opinion but personally I consider the sequels to be absolute trash.
> 
> ...



A lot of this obviously comes down to perception, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, as I think the fighting in the prequels is even more comically stylized than anything Jet Li has ever done... and I've seen Jet Li fight giant centipedes.

Let me ask you this, if it's all about European swordfighting and Japanese swordfighting, where did the Darth Maul double ended light saber come from? That weapon is used in a way reminiscent of Chinese weapons, like poles and... I don't know its name, but it's a double ended blade that tends to appear in a lot of Shaolin movies. Neither of those were ever really popular in Samurai flicks... and at least I can't think of a European example. But usually when those weapons appear in a kung fu flick, they're used to repel two or more swordsmen, often deflecting blows in the same way. The only real difference is that usually it's the hero wielding it.

Samurai films didn't usually have stylized choreography, especially the ones Lucas has acknowledged as influences. There was little deflecting because katanas were brittle, with usually only a few slashes before the death blow. As I said, I can't comment too much on European swordfighting, as most of what I've seen in film was after the Hong Kong boom had already begun ("Count of Monte Cristo", "The Musketeer", etc).

What is a good showcase of European swordfighting?

Edit: While I'm struggling to find a source, I swear I remember hearing that Tsui Hark hired some Lucasarts staff members for his wuxia flicks in either the 1980's or early 1990's, so it's not like there weren't already connections there.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 27, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I do find it amusing how people are taking the image of Rey dressed as a sith seriously.
> 
> I mean -- has everyone forgotten about "Rogue One" using the image of its heroine dressed as an Imperial Officer? I don't even think that ended up in the movie, lol.


That was the only relevant part of the trailer


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## Fang (Aug 27, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> A lot of this obviously comes down to perception, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, as I think the fighting in the prequels is even more comically stylized than anything Jet Li has ever done... and I've seen Jet Li fight giant centipedes.



Nah, I don't think comparing superhuman psychic space wizards doing sword duels is on the same page as Jet Li's dumber movies like The One or anything else where he's going CGI all over the place while throwing motorcycles at people.



> Let me ask you this, if it's all about European swordfighting and Japanese swordfighting, where did the Darth Maul double ended light saber come from? That weapon is used in a way reminiscent of Chinese weapons, like poles and... I don't know its name, but it's a double ended blade that tends to appear in a lot of Shaolin movies. Neither of those were ever really popular in Samurai flicks... and at least I can't think of a European example. But usually when those weapons appear in a kung fu flick, they're used to repel two or more swordsmen, often deflecting blows in the same way. The only real difference is that usually it's the hero wielding it.



One, the actual primary melee weapon of samurais were yari spears in war, not katanas. The katana has been overtly romanticized in popular fiction for decades now since it falls under the period in Japan after the Tokugawa Shogunate successfully united Japan and ended the Warring States period and before the Meiji Restortation period, which is when you have officers and other combatants walking around without their armor using their swords to settle disputes. The main weapon was always the spear or lance in war for samurais. I don't see how the lightsaber staff is based off Chinese stuff, Lucas has always outright said his main inspiration for Star Wars were samurai films from Akira Kurosawa like the Hidden Fortress.

And European men-at-arms, knights, and soldiers have used glaives, spears, lances, and maces as much as they have swords in war.



> Samurai films didn't usually have stylized choreography, especially the ones Lucas has acknowledged as influences. There was little deflecting because katanas were brittle, with usually only a few slashes before the death blow. As I said, I can't comment too much on European swordfighting, as most of what I've seen in film was after the Hong Kong boom had already begun ("Count of Monte Cristo", "The Musketeer", etc).



What? The samurai's katana wasn't particularly brittle at all but the samurai also used their pauldrons on their shoulder armor or the fact the Japanese blade was immaculately folded over and over to make it as durable as possible. They were primarily used for slashing and cutting but so were longswords in Europe which just had the benefit of being also suited for impaling their targets.




> What is a good showcase of European swordfighting?



Gladiator? Braveheart? Outlaw King? Arn the KnightTemplar?


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## Garcher (Aug 27, 2019)

in reality, people don't do fancy shit


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## Fang (Aug 27, 2019)

That looks like dueling with foil blades though.


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## Garcher (Aug 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> That looks like dueling with foil blades though.


Still, most movie sword fights are more concerned with looking impressive rather than realism(fear of injury, unnecessary movements, etc.)


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## Fang (Aug 27, 2019)

Garcher said:


> Still, most movie sword fights are more concerned with looking impressive rather than realism(fear of injury, unnecessary movements, etc.)



That's true, but we're talking about a space fantasy movie. They shoot for entertainment with small amounts of realism, but not intending to be realistic.


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## Turrin (Aug 27, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I do find it amusing how people are taking the image of Rey dressed as a sith seriously.
> 
> I mean -- has everyone forgotten about "Rogue One" using the image of its heroine dressed as an Imperial Officer? I don't even think that ended up in the movie, lol.


I take it seriously but I don’t think it’s Rey. I strongly believe that Dark Rey is another Rey-Clone that Palpatine takes control off. Based on some leaks (I’ll spoiler this in case it’s true)



*Spoiler*: __ 



 Matt Smith’s character is suppose to be. Knight of Ren or Sith trooper that Palpatine takes control off to fight Rey and Kylo, I think this is a misdirect to cover up the final twist, that Palpatine will be possessing a clone Rey to fight them rather then Matt Smith 




Leaks aside I think the movie will probably use cloning to tie up all the loose ends in the Saga. With Anakin origins being explained as him being a clone facilitated by Palpatine; and was always intended as Palpatine future vessel, but when Vader got messed up by Obi Wan and he later sensed the conflict in him leading up to his betrayal, I think Palpatine set out to create clones like Anakin but are obedient like Jango Fet clones. The resulting being Rey; but just like how Jango fet took a liking to one clone and saved Boba Fet; that Zora bliss chick probably saved Rey before she was made obedient.

But at least one clone was successful (if not more) and that’s Dark Rey from the trailer


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## MartialHorror (Aug 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> Nah, I don't think comparing superhuman psychic space wizards doing sword duels is on the same page as Jet Li's dumber movies like The One or anything else where he's going CGI all over the place while throwing motorcycles at people.



"The One" isn't a good representation of Jet Li's style, as he normally doesn't rely on CGI and that was more of a Matrix wannabe. 



> One, the actual primary melee weapon of samurais were yari spears in war, not katanas. The katana has been overtly romanticized in popular fiction for decades now since it falls under the period in Japan after the Tokugawa Shogunate successfully united Japan and ended the Warring States period and before the Meiji Restortation period, which is when you have officers and other combatants walking around without their armor using their swords to settle disputes. The main weapon was always the spear or lance in war for samurais. I don't see how the lightsaber staff is based off Chinese stuff, Lucas has always outright said his main inspiration for Star Wars were samurai films from Akira Kurosawa like the Hidden Fortress.



And how many times have you seen Yari's used in movies? Keep in mind, I am referring to cinematic influences. Katana's being overtly romanticized in popular culture is irrelevant... and if anything, serves my argument... because movies were often the ones romanticizing them. I don't think even Lucas ever claimed to be drawing inspiration from samurai history. He drew it from the movies. 





> What? The samurai's katana wasn't particularly brittle at all but the samurai also used their pauldrons on their shoulder armor or the fact the Japanese blade was immaculately folded over and over to make it as durable as possible. They were primarily used for slashing and cutting but so were longswords in Europe which just had the benefit of being also suited for impaling their targets.



They were sharp, but couldn't defend as well, which is why samurai tended to slash wrists or go straight for the head. Even in Samurai movies, there is little deflecting. Even in a lot of movies, I believe including "The Seven Samurai", the swords are constantly breaking from overuse.



> Gladiator? Braveheart? Outlaw King? Arn the KnightTemplar?



And in two of those, they don't resemble the fights in Phantom Menace in the slightest.


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## Fang (Aug 27, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> "The One" isn't a good representation of Jet Li's style, as he normally doesn't rely on CGI and that was more of a Matrix wannabe.



Its just one example of him going hammy and using overly stylized wuxia in place of realistic martial arts.



> And how many times have you seen Yari's used in movies? Keep in mind, I am referring to cinematic influences. Katana's being overtly romanticized in popular culture is irrelevant... and if anything, serves my argument... because movies were often the ones romanticizing them. I don't think even Lucas ever claimed to be drawing inspiration from samurai history. He drew it from the movies.



In Japanese samurai movies? They aren't uncommon at all. Anyway my point was historically speaking, yari spears were the main and primary weapon of samurais, not the katana, at least as far as actual warfare is concerned. And I never said Lucas didn't draw inspirations from Japan, I said his main focus and influence was from the films.



> They were sharp, but couldn't defend as well, which is why samurai tended to slash wrists or go straight for the head. Even in Samurai movies, there is little deflecting. Even in a lot of movies, I believe including "The Seven Samurai", the swords are constantly breaking from overuse.



I was addressing your claim about their brittleness. They were not as fragile as people claim them to be, and the same thing happens to normal European and even Asian swords when they get too many notches from overuse. 



> And in two of those, they don't resemble the fights in Phantom Menace in the slightest.



....Because I never claimed they had to resemble lightsaber fights in Star Wars. You asked me for examples of movies set or based on European sword fighting in them.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> Its just one example of him going hammy and using overly stylized wuxia in place of realistic martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



-- OK, I will admit that "The One" is more absurd than "The Phantom Menace", but I would say TPM is more in line with "Once Upon a Time in China", maybe "Swordsman II". 

-- They can be seen a lot, but they're rarely used and even when they are, they're rarely the focus and I don't think they were used in any of the films Lucas explicitly mentions as inspirations (although admittedly, I haven't seen "The Hidden Fortress", etc in awhile). The Chinese equivalents (poles and its variants) are a stable of their genre. 

-- Brittleness was a bad choice of words. My point is that in samurai movies, swords clashing and deflecting was uncommon because katana's werent meant to withstand that kind of punishment. 

I am probably overemphasizing my point, as katanas were still the source of inspiration for lightsabers and not Chinese swords (which were more built around jabbing than slashing), but the rhythm of the fights were still closer to Chinese than Japanese or European. 

I also did find out that "Zu Warriors of Magic Mountain" did indeed employ lucasarts staff for special effects related stuff, so it's not like Lucas hadn't had exposure to wuxia. He also allegedly wanted Sammo Hung (who was in Zu Warriors) to choreograph the action scenes for "The Phantom Menace", but Hung either had contractual obligations with Martial Law or Lucas simply chose to go with Gillard. "Moon Warriors" was apparently a big inspiration for Lucas, but admittedly, a lot of what I'm reading here is from dubious sources who seem slanted against Nick Gillard.


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## Fang (Aug 27, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> -- OK, I will admit that "The One" is more absurd than "The Phantom Menace", but I would say TPM is more in line with "Once Upon a Time in China", maybe "Swordsman II".



I mean the original tangent here was we were talking about how goofy the fighting in the Sequels were and then got sidelined into a conversation about Jet Li's martial arts in movies being overly stylized and silly for the sake of appeasing the audience. My point was he, Jackie Chan, and a bunch of other Hong Kong action movie/film stars like Donnie Yen and or directors who have an affinity for that sort of style like with John Woo.



> -- They can be seen a lot, but they're rarely used and even when they are, they're rarely the focus and I don't think they were used in any of the films Lucas explicitly mentions as inspirations (although admittedly, I haven't seen "The Hidden Fortress", etc in awhile). The Chinese equivalents (poles and its variants) are a stable of their genre.



I wouldn't know and would have to take your word at face value, I don't watch much in the way of Chinese kung fu movies in years now. I do know that in Japanese and even some Korean martial arts movies, polearms and spears aren't that uncommon though swords definitely are.



> -- Brittleness was a bad choice of words. My point is that in samurai movies, swords clashing and deflecting was uncommon because katana's werent meant to withstand that kind of punishment.



Not sure. Non-folded and non-tempered Katanas are sometimes more structurally durable and less likely to break or become brittle then ones that are overly folded and tempered by a swordsmith when their being forged. They can still definitely be used for extended combat, sword on sword, or on bone and flesh before getting notched and broken or weaker. But again, that holds true for almost any regular sword as well even ones made with Damascus steel.



> I am probably overemphasizing my point, as katanas were still the source of inspiration for lightsabers and not Chinese swords (which were more built around jabbing than slashing), but the rhythm of the fights were still closer to Chinese than Japanese or European.



Can't agree with this. Lucas' inspiration for how the Jedi and Sith fight were clearly the fact they were meant to be expies to Samurai, sure, but fast paced movement with some acrobatics involved while swifly exchanging ripostes, parries, cuts, and stabs is pretty much a staple of any martially inclined culture be it European or Asian.



> I also did find out that "Zu Warriors of Magic Mountain" did indeed employ lucasarts staff for special effects related stuff, so it's not like Lucas hadn't had exposure to wuxia. He also allegedly wanted Sammo Hung (who was in Zu Warriors) to choreograph the action scenes for "The Phantom Menace", but Hung either had contractual obligations with Martial Law or Lucas simply chose to go with Gillard. "Moon Warriors" was apparently a big inspiration for Lucas, but admittedly, a lot of what I'm reading here is from dubious sources who seem slanted against Nick Gillard.



Neat information. Why would those sources have a bias against Nick Gillard though?


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## ~VK~ (Aug 27, 2019)

i've searched deep inside my heart and have come to the conclusion that i already know the ending of this movie and thus have no use for seeing it.

Finn awakens the force and kills every named character. Force ghost mace windu comes outta nowhere and congratulates him. Then he get's his dick sucked by fine alien bitches. The end. Roll credits. Fin.

GOAT star wars ending


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 27, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> i've searched deep inside my heart and have come to the conclusion that i already know the ending of this movie and thus have no use for seeing it.
> 
> Finn awakens the force and kills every named character. Force ghost mace windu comes outta nowhere and congratulates him. Then he get's his dick sucked by fine alien bitches. The end. Roll credits. Fin.
> 
> GOAT star wars ending


Why wouldn't you wanna see That?


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## ~VK~ (Aug 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Why wouldn't you wanna see That?


i already saw it in my heart


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## MartialHorror (Aug 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> I mean the original tangent here was we were talking about how goofy the fighting in the Sequels were and then got sidelined into a conversation about Jet Li's martial arts in movies being overly stylized and silly for the sake of appeasing the audience. My point was he, Jackie Chan, and a bunch of other Hong Kong action movie/film stars like Donnie Yen and or directors who have an affinity for that sort of style like with John Woo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The person who was writing about it was obviously annoyed that Gillard got the job over Hung, so kept taking potshots in his post. He references interviews, but I couldn't find anything concrete in the brief time I searched.


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## James Bond (Aug 28, 2019)

They've tried really hard to make dark rey lightsabre look cool but it just looks fucking stupid 

I can imagine the thought process was along the lines of "everyone loved Darth Mauls lightsabre lets just copy that but change it ever so slightly"


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## Kuromaku (Aug 28, 2019)

Between the shot of Rey jumping over the TIE in the teaser and this new final shot of her with a fold-out lightsaber, you really get the sense that JJ might be a bit behind the times on what looks cool and what comes off as silly.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 28, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> i've searched deep inside my heart and have come to the conclusion that i already know the ending of this movie and thus have no use for seeing it.
> 
> Finn awakens the force and kills every named character. Force ghost mace windu comes outta nowhere and congratulates him. Then he get's his dick sucked by fine alien bitches. The end. Roll credits. Fin.
> 
> GOAT star wars ending


He won't have a dick as a clone. He will just use taht fat tongue, because FEMINISM.


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 28, 2019)

I'm mostly interested whether last jedi actually effected people or not, so I'll be watching its box office to see if there's any kind of  noticeably steep matrix reloaded to matrix revolutions dropoff.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2019)

Begun, the Box Office Wars, have


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2019)

@Mider T @ATastyMuffin  @mr_shadow  your RoS BO predictions ?


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 28, 2019)

RoS won't beat avatar.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2019)

will it beat TLJ or TLK ?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2019)

the absolute shame would be getting Captain MArvel/Aquaman numbers 

a huge success would be slotting in the large gap between Jurassic World and 2.0B

anything over 1.5B is totally fine though


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 28, 2019)

It needs competition too, and so far all we have is Cats.


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## dr_shadow (Aug 28, 2019)

*Worldwide gross (unadjusted)*

1. The Force Awakens ($2,068)
2. The Last Jedi ($1,332)

3. The Phantom Menace ($983)
4. Revenge of the Sith ($848)
5. Attack of the Clones ($640)

6. A New Hope ($621)
7. The Empire Strikes Back ($457)
8. Return of the Jedi ($417)



The pattern would suggest that, thanks to inflation, Rise of Skywalker should gross more than both the original and prequel trilogies and come in at either #2 or #3. I think it will probably have a smaller opening weekend than The Last Jedi, because fans are pissed off, but if it turns out to be good it should get a bump from positive word of mouth later.

We can see that in each trilogy the first film has the highest gross, probably thanks to hype.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> It needs competition too, and so far all we have is Cats.


Jumanji 2 IIRC


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 28, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Begun, the Box Office Wars, have


Disney started a civil war that was easy to avoid.


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## reiatsuflow (Aug 28, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Worldwide gross (unadjusted)*
> 
> 1. The Force Awakens ($2,068)
> 2. The Last Jedi ($1,332)
> ...



I'm really surprised return of the jedi didn't gross as much as empire. It wasn't a bomb and held its own, but It's such a crowd pleaser.


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## dr_shadow (Aug 28, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> I'm really surprised return of the jedi didn't gross as much as empire. It wasn't a bomb and held its own, but It's such a crowd pleaser.



I imagine that a lot of people must have turned out to see it at least once, since Empire ended on such a massive cliffhanger with Vader revealed as Luke's father. But then after a first viewing...



Shiba D. Inu said:


> Fuck Ewoks



... probably not as many people came back to see a "an Entire Legion of the Emperor's Best Troops" outdone by teddy bears wielding stone-age technology a second or third time.


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## Kuromaku (Aug 28, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Worldwide gross (unadjusted)*
> 
> 1. The Force Awakens ($2,068)
> 2. The Last Jedi ($1,332)
> ...



There's always hype for the first films. In the case of the original, it was a surprise success that ran on amazing word-of-mouth. TPM was the first film in years, and TFA rode a similar wave. Revenge of the Sith benefited from being better than AotC and seemingly being the last _Star Wars_ movie. Honestly though, I'm not sure about this new movie. It's Abrams, so expect something solid but unspectacular and uninspired at best. Which means that instead of audience reception, the movie would want to bank on being the last chapter of the Skywalker saga (shame then that Disney already played its hand by revealing future films on the slate).


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 28, 2019)

Me after my first date with Margot Robbie:


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## egressmadara (Aug 28, 2019)

I predict Rise of Skywalker will outgross TLJ


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## Kuromaku (Aug 28, 2019)

You know, in hindsight, it should have been a bad sign that Ben Burtt was not brought on to work on _The Last Jedi_. Also, they need to bring back the Fox Fanfare before the movie now that Disney owns it, Johnny Williams wrote the opening theme in the same key for good reason.


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## Mob (Aug 29, 2019)




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## MShadows (Aug 30, 2019)

egressmadara said:


> I predict Rise of Skywalker will outgross TLJ


Wouldn’t be surprised with all the sheep that go see these trash sequels. 

If you have any decency, know what’s good for you and wanna save your money for something better you go see a good movie.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 30, 2019)

I would go see a good movie but there isnt an MCU movie scheduled till ~May 2020


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## MShadows (Aug 30, 2019)

That lightsaber looks dumb as fuck. 

They should’ve just used a double bladed one and go full Darth Maul style instead of that homemade eBay tier excuse of a “double saber”


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## blakstealth (Aug 30, 2019)

MShadows said:


> That lightsaber looks dumb as fuck.
> 
> They should’ve just used a double bladed one and go full Darth Maul style instead of that homemade eBay tier excuse of a “double saber”


this is a new generation. I  say go weird with the lightsabers! design them as impractical as possible


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## MShadows (Aug 30, 2019)

blakstealth said:


> this is a new generation. I  say go weird with the lightsabers! design them as impractical as possible


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Aug 30, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Remember when Luke finished his training and he was force chocking pig men and threatening alien gangsters that he would fucking murder everyone unless they played ball? That was a pretty organic way of showing that Luke was tapping into the dark side of the force to establish that link between him and Darth Vader.
> 
> Now we have Rey cosplaying as the Emperor while MOM SAID IT'S MY TURN TO USE DARTH MAUL'S LIGHTSABER. Again, all pretty great ideas but fucking horrible execution. Nothing about this trailer feels that it's a natural conclusion to what happened in the previous 2 movies.



There is no natural conclusion because Ep. 8 was written in a vaccumn with no regard for continuity and now JJA is having to patch it. This whole trilogy has no plot whatsoever.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Aug 30, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I would go see a good movie but there isnt an MCU movie scheduled till ~May 2020



All according to Disney's keikaku

(T/N: keikaku means plan)


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## MartialHorror (Aug 30, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> There is no natural conclusion because Ep. 8 was written in a vaccumn with no regard for continuity and now JJA is having to patch it. This whole trilogy has no plot whatsoever.



I dont want to harp on this, as there are key differences, but it's not like Lucas himself excelled with this in the OT. He didn't originally plan on destroying the death star. Luke and Leia were obviously not meant to be siblings. They didn't know if Ford would return for "Return of the Jedi", hence his capture at the end of ESB, subsequent rescue and feeling kind of like an afterthought throughout the rest of the movie. Even Vader, whose redemption was arguably the entire point of the trilogy, was not supposed to be that important in the original treatment. He was just a baddie and was not meant to be Luke's father. 

So it's not impossible that they can pull something out of their hat.

Now the difference is that for all of this, Episode 4 and 5 did have more hooks to keep audiences guessing what would happen next. If it's true that RJ threw out the original trilogy and Kennedy liked his plans enough to continue, then she should've locked him in for Episode 9. Then maybe he would've spread out some of these revelations. I think Rey's parentage and Luke's death would've had more of a positive impact if they happened in the final entry. Snoke could've still died and fulfilled the desire to make TLJ subversive (for better or worse) and maybe they could've given more hints that Rey is not immune to the dark side's charms.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Aug 30, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I dont want to harp on this, as there are key differences, but it's not like Lucas himself excelled with this in the OT. He didn't originally plan on destroying the death star. Luke and Leia were obviously not meant to be siblings. They didn't know if Ford would return for "Return of the Jedi", hence his capture at the end of ESB, subsequent rescue and feeling kind of like an afterthought throughout the rest of the movie. Even Vader, whose redemption was arguably the entire point of the trilogy, was not supposed to be that important in the original treatment. He was just a baddie and was not meant to be Luke's father.
> 
> So it's not impossible that they can pull something out of their hat.
> 
> Now the difference is that for all of this, Episode 4 and 5 did have more hooks to keep audiences guessing what would happen next. If it's true that RJ threw out the original trilogy and Kennedy liked his plans enough to continue, then she should've locked him in for Episode 9. Then maybe he would've spread out some of these revelations. I think Rey's parentage and Luke's death would've had more of a positive impact if they happened in the final entry. Snoke could've still died and fulfilled the desire to make TLJ subversive (for better or worse) and maybe they could've given more hints that Rey is not immune to the dark side's charms.



Oh I do think he could pull something out of his hat, but the ceiling for what can be achieved at this point isn't that high. I think at most we could get another ep. 7, which is okay but unremarkable.

And I'm saying this as someone who did enjoy ep. 8, but thought it could have been better if it had an actual direction for the whole plot. It had a lot of good ideas but like you said, they ended up feeling a bit forced they way they were done.

In that sense MCU is a lot better, despite being from the same company. 20+ movies and it runs like clockwork.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 30, 2019)

I can't wait for the soundtrack to be released. That ending motif from the last trailer was a phenomenal rendition of the classic. 

That new lightsaber is pretty silly, even as far as lightsabers go. I always thought people gave Kylo Ren's lightsaber a hard time, as lightsabers don't make much sense from a practical standpoint anyway (why don''t Jedi's attempt to slide the beams downwards to chop off some hands anyway?), so the guard suggests that such a thing probably has happened in the past.

But a fold in lightsaber would only have any pragmatic function if lightsaber beams shattered, which I've yet to see happen -- although that could be cool in the right context. It's an obvious ploy of selling toys. 

Then again, maybe J.J Abrams just has a thing for designing new lightsabers. Like I said, I was cool with Kylo Ren's, but there is a point where it starts getting a bit much. I didn't even like Mace Windu's purple blade. 

I think most of us would've been perfectly happy to see Darth Maul's weapon return and didn't need a new twist on it.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 30, 2019)

Do you think Darth Maul will make some sort of return? 

That could be the only way to justify "Solo"'s sequel hook, although I don't know how that would fit unless he's a force ghost (or the Dark Side equivalent)... If that's the case though, it might be repetitive if Palps returns as such. 

I always thought the prequels biggest mistake was killing off Maul in Episode 1. I know the cartoons develop him more, but I'm just not interested in the medium.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 30, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Aug 30, 2019)

Here I am trying to promote a discussion and you come in with some serious trolling.

You truly have morphed into the fanboy version of Kamal!


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## James Bond (Aug 30, 2019)

Is that Caitlyn Jenner?


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 30, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> That could be the only way to justify "Solo"'s sequel hook



Well..I don't think they expected solo to flop..

They maybe  able to continue that storyline in the Obi Wan spin-off however.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 30, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> You truly have morphed into the fanboy version of Kamal!


Sheesh comparing anyone to that guy is akin to calling a woman cunt..effective insult but unwarranted most of the time.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 30, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Well..I don't think they expected solo to flop..
> 
> They maybe be able to continue that storyline in the Obi Wan spin-off however.



Obviously. But they can pivot and say it was their plan this entire time, without acknowledging Solo as a flop.

After all, J.J has already been saying things that RJ didn't derail the original trilogies storyline. 

Then again, I really wonder what's planned and what's not planned. Luke said that Leia was going to get a bigger role in Episode 9 before she passed away and it was after TLJ was completed, but before it was released.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 30, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Obviously. But they can pivot and say it was their plan this entire time, without acknowledging Solo as a flop.
> 
> After all, J.J has already been saying things that RJ didn't derail the original trilogies storyline.
> 
> Then again, I really wonder what's planned and what's not planned. Luke said that Leia was going to get a bigger role in Episode 9 before she passed away and it was after TLJ was completed, but before it was released.


Yeah..I don't know how much I can trust JJ..because so far it looks to me that this movie is trying to undo the missteps of the last one.

From "let the past die"  and stepping on what fans are comfortable with,  to " we're never really gone" and being 80% nostalgia.

That's a heavy 180


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## MartialHorror (Aug 30, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah..I don't know how much I can trust JJ..because so far it looks to me that this movie is trying to undo the missteps of the last one.
> 
> From "let the past die"  and stepping on what fans are comfortable with,  to " we're never really gone" and being 80% nostalgia.
> 
> That's a heavy 180



Which honestly... regardless of what I feel about TLJ... I don't like the idea of "undoing" anything, as it keeps the franchise from moving forward. But we'll see. I don't think this is intended to be a stopgap, one final grasp for profits before they do something else with the next trilogy, just because I don't think J.J would've signed in if he suspected this would damage his brand.

Say what you will about the guy as a filmmaker, but he does seem careful about how his name is used and when his studio made a bad movie... it got dumped on netflix and reports came out that J.J wasn't able to work on it because of scheduling profits.  The only arguably stain has been "Star Trek: Into Darkness", but that was more with Star Trek purists, who weren't especially enthusiastic about the first one. The movie still made money and good reviews.


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 30, 2019)

I loved that Kylo smashed his helmet after being called a wannabe Vader..thought that was a defining moment for him but now he's like " maybe I reacted too rashly" and repaired it..soo there goes that development


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## MartialHorror (Aug 30, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I loved that Kylo smashed his helmet after being called a wannabe Vader..thought that was a defining moment for him but now he's like " maybe I reacted too rashly" and repaired it..soo there goes that development



Yeah, I don't like that. But I guess the helmet sells more merchandise?


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## Kuromaku (Aug 31, 2019)

If they're smart, they can use it to illustrate just how much of a manchild Kylo is. He lacked a good reason to turn Dark in the first place, did so when he was already in his 20s (despite the story trying to make him seem like an adolescent when it happened), and wants to change everything by destroying the past instead of trying to learn from it because that would be too hard. Honestly, it's hard to sympathize with his character given his constant state of arrested development. While I don't care much for such things since characters yo-yoing over the course of their development gets tiresome fast, going back to the mask could just be him going back to what makes hm comfortable instead of growing the hell up.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 31, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Here I am trying to promote a discussion and you come in with some serious trolling.
> 
> You truly have morphed into the fanboy version of Kamal!


Please elaborate...


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## Deathbringerpt (Aug 31, 2019)

Kylo Ren's lightsaber was perfect, tho. Not because it was OLD BUT KINDA NEW, REMEMBER STAR WARS but it actually reflected his character. The crossguard gives 2 additional laser beams which kinda make his saber more imposing which fits Kylo since he's a edgy Sith tryhard and he wants to be as threatening as possible, all the way down to his voice modification mask. And then the actual beams of the lightsaber don't seem to be holding up so well to the point where it energy spreads out a bit and it looks flimsy...because Kylo is a edgy Sith tryhard but he actually kinda sucks at all of it.

I hate the shit out of Disney but I gotta give credit where credit is dye. Kylo Ren was a genuinely interesting, appealing character in the first movie.

Rey's new light saber is retarded because it apes Darth Maul's saber which was literally just YOU LIKE LIGHTSABERS?! WELL, CHECK THIS OUT, DOUBLE DILDO LIGHTSABER, BUY OUR TOYS, KIDS and actually makes it even more fucking pointless and useless with that whole Swiss knife setup.



MartialHorror said:


> I dont want to harp on this, as there are key differences, but it's not like Lucas himself excelled with this in the OT. He didn't originally plan on destroying the death star. Luke and Leia were obviously not meant to be siblings. They didn't know if Ford would return for "Return of the Jedi", hence his capture at the end of ESB, subsequent rescue and feeling kind of like an afterthought throughout the rest of the movie. Even Vader, whose redemption was arguably the entire point of the trilogy, was not supposed to be that important in the original treatment. He was just a baddie and was not meant to be Luke's father.
> 
> So it's not impossible that they can pull something out of their hat.
> 
> Now the difference is that for all of this, Episode 4 and 5 did have more hooks to keep audiences guessing what would happen next. If it's true that RJ threw out the original trilogy and Kennedy liked his plans enough to continue, then she should've locked him in for Episode 9. Then maybe he would've spread out some of these revelations. I think Rey's parentage and Luke's death would've had more of a positive impact if they happened in the final entry. Snoke could've still died and fulfilled the desire to make TLJ subversive (for better or worse) and maybe they could've given more hints that Rey is not immune to the dark side's charms.



It's all about execution, though. Lucas never excelled at anything, he only had complete creative control over the first movie but the people who actually worked on the following 2 managed to make a cohesive throughout the story. I read a pretty great theory that would explain Rey's character which says that she's a force baby like Anakin. Popped out of nowhere while having a huge affinity for the force, light and dark, which explains the Mary Sue crap of the first movie and her being a dark side magnet in the second and would actually close the parentage plot thread pretty nicely. No Skywalker lineage and not quite what Kylo told her in the second movie.  But I don't trust them to do anything decent with that idea even if it's true.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 31, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Sheesh comparing anyone to that guy is akin to calling a woman cunt..effective insult but unwarranted most of the time.


Why am i so bad exactly?


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 31, 2019)

Please don't quote me


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 31, 2019)

I agree, I genuinely liked Kylo in ep 7

I mean he is no Vader or Palps, but thats a high standard



it helps that Adam Driver is a pretty great actor tho


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## Vault (Aug 31, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Please don't quote me


Ayyy that pop off


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Aug 31, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Please don't quote me


Konoha Theatre is the Cafe now.

So...



Shiba D. Inu said:


> I agree, I genuinely liked Kylo in ep 7
> 
> I mean he is no Vader or Palps, but thats a high standard
> 
> ...



Kylo sucks.

Dark Horse writers banged out batter bad guys for poverty wages.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Sep 1, 2019)

@Fang 
The joker trailer has more YouTube  views than the Star Wars one despite coming out 3 days later


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## Fang (Sep 1, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> @Fang
> The joker trailer has more YouTube  views than the Star Wars one despite coming out 3 days later



Yeah, its pretty bad. Even in JJ Abrams latest interview, he pretty much implied TLJ has killed almost all the hype for TROS and previous existing good will of the fans. On a related note, the new Star Wars park that opened in Disney Land in Florida with its newest attraction with that one Star Wars ride, I think Smuggler's Run, is doing dreadful compared to a two year old Avatar ride.

And overall attendance is really bad as well.


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## dr_shadow (Sep 1, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> All according to Disney's keikaku
> 
> (T/N: keikaku means plan)





Deathbringerpt said:


> Kylo Ren's lightsaber was perfect, tho. Not because it was OLD BUT KINDA NEW, REMEMBER STAR WARS but it actually reflected his character. The crossguard gives 2 additional laser beams which kinda make his saber more imposing which fits Kylo since he's a edgy Sith tryhard and he wants to be as threatening as possible, all the way down to his voice modification mask. And then the actual beams of the lightsaber don't seem to be holding up so well to the point where it energy spreads out a bit and it looks flimsy...because Kylo is a edgy Sith tryhard but he actually kinda sucks at all of it.
> 
> I hate the shit out of Disney but I gotta give credit where credit is dye. Kylo Ren was a genuinely interesting, appealing character in the first movie.





Shiba D. Inu said:


> I agree, I genuinely liked Kylo in ep 7
> 
> I mean he is no Vader or Palps, but thats a high standard
> 
> ...



It was endearingly meta.

"We can't write a villain who won't come off as a cheap Vader re-hash, so... how about a villain who is a literal cheap Vader re-hash in-universe, and mocked as such by the other characters? "

Reactions: Like 2


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## ~Gesy~ (Sep 1, 2019)

Fang said:


> Yeah, its pretty bad. Even in JJ Abrams latest interview, he pretty much implied TLJ has killed almost all the hype for TROS and previous existing good will of the fans. On a related note, the new Star Wars park that opened in Disney Land in Florida with its newest attraction with that one Star Wars ride, I think Smuggler's Run, is doing dreadful compared to a two year old Avatar ride.
> 
> And overall attendance is really bad as well.


I do think this is still good to make 1- 1.2 billion. Force Awakens numbers is however far  out of reach.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Sep 1, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> It was endearingly meta.
> 
> "We can't write a villain who won't come off as a cheap Vader re-hash, so... how about a villain who is a literal cheap Vader re-hash in-universe, and mocked as such by the other characters? "



Kylo in ep. 7 was pretty good.

Kylo in ep. 8 was almost good but his turn to complete evil was a bit too fast. Could have developed that more, like everything in ep. 8

Maybe this series would have worked out better at a TV series instead of 3 films. At least with the kind of complicated character story Ep. 8 tried to tell. It would let us get a lot of content to understand what Rey and Kylo were going through.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Fang (Sep 1, 2019)

"Complicated character story"
"Episode 8"

There was no such thing


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## Fang (Sep 1, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I do think this is still good to make 1- 1.2 billion. Force Awakens numbers is however far  out of reach.



It'll probably at best do ROUGHLY TLJ numbers.
At best.


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## Unicornsilovethem (Sep 1, 2019)

Those guys were prophets and didn't even know it


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## Kuromaku (Sep 2, 2019)

One of my issues with TLJ is that it wants to be a character-based story, but due to the characters needing to act in certain ways that make little sense for either themselves or logic, it's more of a plot-based idiot plot.


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## MShadows (Sep 2, 2019)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> Those guys were prophets and didn't even know it


Embarrassing is an understatement.


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## MShadows (Sep 2, 2019)

What you’d expect a Sith Rey to look like



In reality it’s just Rey wearing a black bathrobe wielding a rejected saber toy


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 2, 2019)

eww that eyeliner and lipstick 

uglier than sheev


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## Karma (Sep 2, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> eww that eyeliner and lipstick
> 
> uglier than sheev


Like father like daughter


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## MartialHorror (Sep 2, 2019)

MShadows said:


> What you’d expect a Sith Rey to look like
> 
> 
> 
> In reality it’s just Rey wearing a black bathrobe wielding a rejected saber toy



Palpatine looks like he's about to be 'Me Too'ed'.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 2, 2019)

Now I'm imagining Palpatine being forced to resign from his own Empire because of galactic twitter... I think I know how Episode 9 is going to end now.


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## Sherlōck (Sep 5, 2019)

Do I have to read all the comic, watch tv series, animated show or can I just watch the 9 movies to get a grasp of the SW universe?


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## BlazingInferno (Sep 5, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> Do I have to read all the comic, watch tv series, animated show or can I just watch the 9 movies to get a grasp of the SW universe?



The only movies that acknowledges events from the other stuff are Rogue One and Solo, but I doubt they’ll play a big part in this movie.


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## Garcher (Sep 5, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> Do I have to read all the comic, watch tv series, animated show or can I just watch the 9 movies to get a grasp of the SW universe?


You just have to watch 6 movies


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 5, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> Do I have to read all the comic, watch tv series, animated show or can I just watch the 9 movies to get a grasp of the SW universe?


 you have not seen a single Star Wars movie ?


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## Sherlōck (Sep 5, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> you have not seen a single Star Wars movie ?



No.

I didn’t watch any HP movie either .


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 5, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> I didn’t watch any HP movie either .


same actually

Reactions: Like 1


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## Djomla (Sep 5, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> No.
> 
> I didn’t watch any HP movie either .



What is wrong with you?


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## MShadows (Sep 5, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> Do I have to read all the comic, watch tv series, animated show or can I just watch the 9 movies to get a grasp of the SW universe?


Watch episodes 1-6, don’t bother with the rest


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## Sherlōck (Sep 5, 2019)

Djomla said:


> What is wrong with you?



For some reason whenever I wanted to wattch it I became busy. Eventually I lost interest.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Djomla (Sep 5, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> For some reason whenever I wanted to wattch it I became busy. Eventually I lost interest.



Well you should at least watch the original movies. Those 3 are top notch.


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## Mob (Sep 7, 2019)

I love that part when they talk about SW official poster

Reactions: Like 1


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## reiatsuflow (Sep 7, 2019)

I haven't seen any HP movies all the way through either.


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## Son Of Man (Sep 7, 2019)

I think I've seen every hp movie 5 or more times

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Sep 7, 2019)

I'v only watched a few..

I bought a bootleg copy of the first film for 5 dollars when I was a kid.


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## MShadows (Sep 7, 2019)

This movie is probably gonna end with Kylo Ren saving Rey from Sidious’ influence, then they beat him together with “the power of love” or some bullshit like that. 

After that Kylo is redeemed as Ben Solo and they probably have some mad sex and that’s how it wraps up.


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## reiatsuflow (Sep 7, 2019)

I'm not old shadow you're old


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 10, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> No.
> 
> I didn’t watch any HP movie either .





Shiba D. Inu said:


> same actually





reiatsuflow said:


> I haven't seen any HP movies all the way through either.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 10, 2019)

MShadows said:


> This movie is probably gonna end with Kylo Ren saving Rey from Sidious’ influence, then they beat him together with “the power of love” or some bullshit like that.
> 
> After that Kylo is redeemed as Ben Solo and they probably have some mad sex and that’s how it wraps up.


I heard they have like multiple endings and developments, depending on how people reacts right now. Disney finally realized that they have screwed the ball big time.


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## Fang (Sep 10, 2019)

These rumors if even half of what they say are remotely true just shows how much they are now trying to ape Dark Empire's entire story line.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 10, 2019)

Mob said:


> I love that part when they talk about SW official poster


Reminder that these weebs fueled the manchilds to whine about ep1 been terrible alongside lucas, which was a factor on making him sell sw.


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## Kuromaku (Sep 11, 2019)

@Suigetsu 
People have been mocking the movies for years. All RLM did was bring that sort of thing back into popular relevance long after the movies had come out.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 11, 2019)

Yeah, I'm baffled by the attempts to rewrite history in regards to the prequels. I don't know if they're any more hated than the new films these days, as social media has changed the landscape of hate, but they've always been controversial. 

Also, does "Weeb" mean something different these days? I always thought it was a derogatory reference towards white people pretending to be Japanese.


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## Kuromaku (Sep 11, 2019)

It still means that, but as with all things, dipshits began using the term will-nilly and bastardizing its meaning so that it now is a derogatory term for nerds and geeks on top of its original meaning. Kinda like how the term "Mary Sue" was ruined by said dipshits. It's the same with all things exposed to the mediocre masses, like a lovely hole in the wall eatery that becomes popular and now has to appeal to a larger clientele, ruining its original appeal.


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## MShadows (Sep 11, 2019)

The prequels are actually not as bad as many people make them out to be. 

They're definitely a lot better than the current trilogy...


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## Suigetsu (Sep 11, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The prequels are actually not as bad as many people make them out to be.
> 
> They're definitely a lot better than the current trilogy...


They brought new blood and had very good ideas, and they where clearly targeted for younger audiences. EP3 was really fun despite being a bit clunky.
Imo the whole hate was overblown with red letter media.

If they where considered mediocre then the disney saga made them look like masterpieces now.


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## MShadows (Sep 11, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> They brought new blood and had very good ideas, and they where clearly targeted for younger audiences. EP3 was really fun despite being a bit clunky.
> Imo the whole hate was overblown with red letter media.
> 
> If they where considered mediocre then the disney saga made them look like masterpieces now.


Some of the script might have been meme-ish (especially for Anakin), but the story lines themselves and how they were executed were not bad. 

I do have some issues with how some things were executed, but I could watch the prequels all day. The same thing couldn't be said about the current ones. The Force Awakens had potential but wasn't handled that good, while TLJ is bottom of the barrel horse shit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 11, 2019)

> rewatching TPM or AotC   ok, maybe for TPM _just_ the Qui-Gon scenes on youtube, but not the whole thing 


> rewatching RotS  ive rewatched RotS way more than TESB and especially RotJ


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## Kuromaku (Sep 11, 2019)

Saying the hate was overblown with RLM is just outright ignorance at best and an outright lie at worst. I was there when the prequels came out, and I remember all the crap everyone started to give the movies after each one was released. The backlash was so bad that I missed seeing AotC in theaters (which turned out to be a good thing, since I found myself mostly bored out of my mind while watching it. The only other _Star Wars _film that did that to me was _Rogue One_). Not to say that the prequels are all bad: the aesthetics of it all are great, the music was amazing, and even the broader ideas were good. The issue was execution, with TPM being mediocre (but entertaining for kids), AotC sucking, and RotS being alright. It helps that what works really works while quite a lot of what doesn't is so bad it's good, in contrast to the new movies, which tend toward competent mediocrity.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 11, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Some of the script might have been meme-ish (especially for Anakin), but the story lines themselves and how they were executed were not bad.
> 
> I do have some issues with how some things were executed, but I could watch the prequels all day. The same thing couldn't be said about the current ones. The Force Awakens had potential but wasn't handled that good, while TLJ is bottom of the barrel horse shit.


Rots is comfy af. Sure some of the dialogue lacked polish but it clearly was the movie that lucas wanted to make since the beggining.


>I was there when TPM came out and it sucked.

Well lad I was also there and I really liked it, alongside every kid of my generation, because like I said, it had us in mind, not you. It was interested on selling the new ships and bringing new blood. Which it succeeded in doing.

Attack of the clones was cringy because Lucas dont know how to do romance which he admitted, he also intended that movie to be directed by someone else but his friends abandoned him “looking at you ron howard” however Nataly portman in her prime was all the excuse I needed to see it as a pre-pubescent teenager.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 11, 2019)

I was 13 and riding the hype train, collecting the toys before the movie even came out and seeing the special editions in theaters... and I still found "The Phantom Menace" dull.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deathbringerpt (Sep 11, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The prequels are actually not as bad as many people make them out to be.
> 
> They're definitely a lot better than the current trilogy...



People who post fundamentally wrong shit like this haven't seen the prequels in years. Anyone who thinks those stretched out retarded storylines that were mostly an excuse for hours and hours of CGI that aged like milk really need to see how fucking garbage all 3 movies are in terms of everything that's not visuals.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 11, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> People who post fundamentally wrong shit like this haven't seen the prequels in years. Anyone who thinks that's stretched out retarded storylines that were mostly an excuse for hours and hours of CGI that aged like milk really need to see how fucking garbage all 3 movies are in terms of everything that's not visuals.


They ARE better than the current triology, and had very good ideas. Not debating about how they aged. But the whole "Oh I was there when it came out and I found it dull" its pretty redundant since people reacted differently but I do not recall seeing a backlash about it. People and media seem to be pretty mellow with it, altought I am not gonna defend it. It has a strange pace because Lucas spent 20 years without writting nor doing a movie, so the result was to be expected, not sure why people act surprised about it.


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## Deathbringerpt (Sep 11, 2019)

Not only they're worse than the current trilogy in every single way that matters, they're just about one of the worst big budget trilogies ever made for the big screen. I'll never stop underlining how much of a fucking hackjob Lucas pulled with this shit.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 11, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Not only they're worse than the current trilogy in every single way that matter, they're just about one of the worst big budget trilogies ever made for the big screen. I'll never stop underlining how much of a fucking hackjob Lucas pulled with this shit.



You think the prequels are worse than the current movies?


I am sorry but I dont recall the prequels absolutely obliterating the franchise, Lucas isnt really a hack but that shit happens when you forget that making a good movie its like coaching a team of people, and not doing it all by yourself, which is what he did.
His movies made cash, brought new people  and it expanded the mythos and universe. Did the new sequels do anything of that? Facts dont lie.


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## Kuromaku (Sep 11, 2019)

Suigetsu, you really don't have to lie about the reception to the prequels. I actually was there, with both social circles and pop culture. My social circles were mostly indifferent, but pop culture? Pop culture was mocking it from early on. There's a reason Jar Jar became so hated and Jake Lloyd had his life ruined, on top of Natalie Portman fearing for her career for a short while.

All the sequels have done is prove that maybe Disney didn't know what they were doing and that maybe the franchise in itself is broken if both creator and new owner don't know how to handle it.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 11, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Not only they're worse than the current trilogy in every single way that matter, they're just about one of the worst big budget trilogies ever made for the big screen. I'll never stop underlining how much of a fucking hackjob Lucas pulled with this shit.



Just remember that you're arguing with someone who believes that Hollywood is run by a Jewish mafia who may or may not have had Zack Snyder's daughter killed for "Batman Vs Superman" bombing.

But beyond that, he's saying that "saying I found it dull" is redundant because people remember things differently, but then follows that up with "I don't remember a backlash". He's apparently ignoring that the guy who played Jar Jar and Jake Lloyd received death threats.

Edit: Apparently it was a re-upload. I doubt a single video can influence the masses and if it can... that just goes to show how apathetic people were about the prequels. But I was mistaken on the dates, as the quote was in 2012 and RLM did their video originally in 2009.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 11, 2019)

The prequels were pretty divisive.
The ones who liked it were mostly kids and even they knew it wasn't quality film making.
But it had enough appeal for them.
Older teens and up were pretty disappointed with them.

Now the knew trilogy is just hated.
The first part had just enough to keep some hope with all the setups.
But the second just annihilated any remaining good will people had left.


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## Son Of Man (Sep 11, 2019)

Sith Troopers


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## Suigetsu (Sep 11, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Suigetsu, you really don't have to lie about the reception to the prequels. I actually was there, with both social circles and pop culture. My social circles were mostly indifferent, but pop culture? Pop culture was mocking it from early on. There's a reason Jar Jar became so hated and Jake Lloyd had his life ruined, on top of Natalie Portman fearing for her career for a short while


So your social circles from 1999 where the center of the world? You speak as if your experience was the only true one.
I am going to quote @ClandestineSchemer to make it easier for you to understand


> The ones who liked it were mostly kids and even they knew it wasn't quality film making.
> But it had enough appeal for them.
> Older teens and up were pretty disappointed with them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deathbringerpt (Sep 11, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> You think the prequels are worse than the current movies?
> 
> 
> I am sorry but I dont recall the prequels absolutely obliterating the franchise, Lucas isnt really a hack but that shit happens when you forget that making a good movie its like coaching a team of people, and not doing it all by yourself, which is what he did.
> His movies made cash, brought new people  and it expanded the mythos and universe. Did the new sequels do anything of that? Facts dont lie.



Not only is Force Awakens one of the most profitable movies ever made, that has absolutely fucking nothing to do with the fact that it's a better movie than any of those garbage prequel movies. The fuck that has to do with a quality of a movie? What the fuck is about this place's obsession with how much money a movie made?

You fucking people talk like you have stocks in Disney or something.

Lucas literally stopped making Star Wars movies because he had a frowny face after people spent years telling him the prequels fucking sucked. They were never "divisive", they were always treated as shit movies except little shitty kids.

People need to stop conflating their hate with Disney and the current politics around Star Wars with the quality of the movies themselves. I'd take Force Awakens over any modern movie from Lucas. TLJ is just about as bad as the prequels but it still looks like a Star Wars movie, which is something the prequels green screens can't say.


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## Deathbringerpt (Sep 11, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Just remember that you're arguing with someone who believes that Hollywood is run by a Jewish mafia who may or may not have had Zack Snyder's daughter killed for "Batman Vs Superman" bombing.
> 
> But beyond that, he's saying that "saying I found it dull" is redundant because people remember things differently, but then follows that up with "I don't remember a backlash". He's apparently ignoring that the guy who played Jar Jar and Jake Lloyd received death threats.
> 
> Edit: Apparently it was a re-upload. I doubt a single video can influence the masses and if it can... that just goes to show how apathetic people were about the prequels. But I was mistaken on the dates, as the quote was in 2012 and RLM did their video originally in 2009.



This is why I never spent much time in these other sections. Half of the people here sound fucking insane.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 11, 2019)

ST fans still trying to argue the new movies are better than the prequels after they fucked over the legacy of every main character and did nothing new but rip off better storylines from the previous movies and EU are hilariously pathetic.


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## Deathbringerpt (Sep 11, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> ST ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) still trying to argue the new movies are better after it fucked over the legacy of every main character and did nothing new but rip off better storylines from the previous movies and EU are hilariously pathetic.



I agree completely with what you posted. That doesn't refute the fact that TFA is still a better movie than any modern garbage Lucas produced. It's shit like The Last Jedi that completely fucked up whatever potential the new story had.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 11, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Not only is Force Awakens one of the most profitable movies ever made, that fact has absolutely fucking nothing to do with the fact that it's a better movie than any of those garbage prequel movies. The fuck that has to do with a quality of a movie? What the fuck is about this place's obsession with how much money a movie made?



Better movie how exactly?
Plagiarized story, shitty special effects, poor characters, poor soundtrack, poor art direction, poor cinematography and a failed disney attraction that will probably be rebranded as agrava land. And dont make me get started on the failed tv shows. 
No one gives a shit about the characters.

Meanwhile prequels have memorable characters, good art direction, good cinematography and very good special effects. And yes it had better editing. The only thing that was rusted as fuck but its a meme goldmine.



> Lucas literally stopped making Star Wars movies because he had a frowny face after people spent years telling him the prequels fucking sucked. They were never "divisive", they were always treated as bad movies except little shitty kids.


By the same obsessive little shits that bullied jake loyd and made documentaries and wouldnt shut up about how new movies ruined their childhoods - why would you center your entire childhood on a product its beyond me. But that outlash sparked when RLM prequel reviews more or less came out because it became a trendy topic.



> People need to stop conflating their hate with Disney and the current politics around Star Wars with the quality of the movies themselves. I'd take Force Awakens over any modern movie from Lucas.


Sounds like you are speaking for personal feelings rather than being objective. Sad really.


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 11, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> But the second just annihilated any remaining good will people had left.



Given I recently came across apparently "approved" Legends material that lacks any form of integrity from its writer and destroys the integrity of the Legends mythos, I could care less about people screeching that their preconceptions were not met.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Sep 11, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Is Suigetsu denying his "Jewish Yakuza who organized the "Me Too" movement and took out Zack Snyder's daughter" theory?


Attack the current argument. That is what real digital ninjas do.


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## Deathbringerpt (Sep 11, 2019)

Yes, watching Ewan McGregor trying to call emotion when going NOT THE YOUNGLINGS was some of the most awe inspiring, emotionally wrecking scenes I've ever seen in my life. I'm shaking just thinking about it.

And every thing about Ian Mcdiarmid was entertaining because it's literally the only aspect of the entire trilogy that reaches the "So bad it's good" stage. It's cool and full of passion but by no means anything even remotely legitimate. Or do we need to see the Emperor do like 4 evil head turns when he's obviously speaking Sith shit to Anakin who just gawks at him like a retard.

How the fuck can people defend this garbage is beyond me. You do you, champ. I'm gonna bounce out of this thread for a while again.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 11, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Yes, watching Ewan McGregor trying to call emotion when going NOT THE YOUNGLINGS was some of the most awe inspiring, emotionally wrecking scenes I've ever seen in my life. I'm shaking just thinking about it.
> 
> And every thing about Ian Mcdiarmid was entertaining because it's literally the only aspect of the entire trilogy that reaches the "So bad it's good" stage. It's cool and full of passion but by no means anything even remotely legitimate. Or do we need to see the Emperor do like 4 evil head turns when he's obviously speaking Sith shit to Anakin who just gawks to him like a retard.
> 
> How the fuck can people defend this garbage is beyond me. You do you, champ. I'm gonna bounce out of this thread for a while again.



He does look like he's struggling not to laugh.

I actually want McGregor to reprise his role in some capacity though, as he's a great actor who is a natural fit for Obi Wan.


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 11, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> He does look like he's struggling not to laugh.
> 
> I actually want McGregor to reprise his role in some capacity though, as he's a great actor who is a natural fit for Obi Wan.



There actually is an Obi-Wan series planned to be produced for Disney +, so Ewan McGregor will be reprising his role as Obi-Wan there.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 11, 2019)

While I do like to give shit to certain people, I do try to avoid on getting on the Lucas hatetrain. He's a filmmaker with plenty of strengths and weaknesses, but even if I think the prequels sucked, I don't think they ruined Star Wars. For me, I don't think anything can ruin Star Wars... although the special editions come close...

My love for the original outweighs my disdain of TPM. 

A sequel can only ruin an original if you let it. "Jaws" is my favorite movie, but I remember when there was a time when people remembered it for the notorious sequels. These days, people tend to remember "Jaws" for the masterpiece it is. But I don't have to watch "Jaws: The Revenge" if I don't want too and with seemingly every f@cking franchise constantly erasing previous lines of continuity, you don't even have to acknowledge any of the prequels or sequels as canon if you don't want too.

Just look at Terminator. There hasn't been a steady canon since "Terminator 2"... and don't even get me started on "Halloween".


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## Kuromaku (Sep 11, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> So your social circles from 1999 where the center of the world? You speak as if your experience was the only true one.
> I am going to quote @ClandestineSchemer to make it easier for you to understand



Wew lad, did you ignore the part where it went past my social circles?


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## Suigetsu (Sep 11, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Wew lad, did you ignore the part where it went past my social circles?


Like what exactly? The movie had good sincere reviews and got shit but nothing blew out of the water like you are trying to make it seem. Unlike the propaganda and damage control that we have today.


What happened to Jake Loyd is no surprise - altought he did claim he also had fans - considering the kind of obssesive fandom SW has or had, unironically Lucas had his revenge on these obssesive fans by giving it to disney so that they would truly "ruin their childhood"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kuromaku (Sep 11, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> Like what exactly? The movie had good sincere reviews and got shit but nothing blew out of the water like you are trying to make it seem. Unlike the propaganda and damage control that we have today.



Suigetsu, Reviews by professional critics were tepid to slightly positive (even worst than TLJ, which had positive review but terrible fan reception), but the fans didn't care much for it, hence mountains of parodies and mockery and Jake Lloyd's life.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Sep 11, 2019)

The worst parts of PT were the abysmal script Lucas had for Jake Loyd's kid Anakin (It was complete cringe, yet the poor kid tried to do his best and wasn't even bad at acting) and Jar Jar. People completely ripped on a poor kid for being forced to carry out a shitty part from a script, which is not only disgusting but also put an end to his career. 

The rest wasn't even bad. Maybe for the OG die hard Star War fans PT wasn't on par with the original trilogy, but you guys are exaggerating. 

For AoTC the worst part was once again Anakin's dialogue and love interest cringe. That's because Lucas blew the ball again with the characterization. I see people rip of Hayden's acting, but the problem AGAIN is not the acting itself, but the fact that Lucas couldn't help himself from writing cringe all over young Anakin. 

And RotS is without a doubt the best of the prequels and also an objectively good SW movie. Not as much cringe, and I feel like it was handled nicely for what it was meant to be: the end of an old era as it moves towards the originals.


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## Kuromaku (Sep 11, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The worst parts of PT were the abysmal script Lucas had for Jake Loyd's kid Anakin (It was complete cringe, yet the poor kid tried to do his best and wasn't even bad at acting) and Jar Jar. People completely ripped on a poor kid for being forced to carry out a shitty part from a script, which is not only disgusting but also put an end to his career.
> 
> The rest wasn't even bad. Maybe for the OG die hard Star War fans PT wasn't on par with the original trilogy, but you guys are exaggerating.
> 
> ...



AotC also suffers from poor direction. A lot of the images are nice, but in contrast to the work of directors who inspired Lucas such as John Ford, there's no real dynamism to the direction, so even scenes that should be tense or exciting come off as flat. Meanwhile, even RotS, the strongest of the prequels, has moments like this:


That's just terrible to look at and kills the drama of the scene entirely.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 12, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The worst parts of PT were the abysmal script Lucas had for Jake Loyd's kid Anakin (It was complete cringe, yet the poor kid tried to do his best and wasn't even bad at acting) and Jar Jar. People completely ripped on a poor kid for being forced to carry out a shitty part from a script, which is not only disgusting but also put an end to his career.



This is what I have been saying, the fanbase has or had some outright petty and pathetic people.



> The rest wasn't even bad. *Maybe for the OG die hard Star War fans PT wasn't on par with the original trilogy,* but you guys are exaggerating.


This is something that I have noticed every time as well. And since it's not on par then they are outraged. While not considering that Lucas doing the PT wasnt in his prime and didnt have his team from back then.


> For AoTC the worst part was once again Anakin's dialogue and love interest cringe. That's because Lucas blew the ball again with the characterization. I see people rip of Hayden's acting, but the problem AGAIN is not the acting itself, but the fact that Lucas couldn't help himself from writing cringe all over young Anakin.


The problem with that - like I said before - is that Lucas cant write romance for shit, hence why TESB had Kasdasn and the director of the movie taking care of that whilst Lucas supervised the story that he made. Yes Attack of the clones problem was the cringe dialogue and it still is.


> And RotS is without a doubt the best of the prequels and also an objectively good SW movie. Not as much cringe, and I feel like it was handled nicely for what it was meant to be: the end of an old era as it moves towards the originals.


Not objectively but it is indeed a very comfy kino! Let us not forget this scene, how Palpatine "like Nixon which he is actually based on alongside one of those super powerful Asian Dynastic Emperors" talks about conception of life while there is a... quite interesting show taking part. Which makes the whole scene philosophical and entertaining, plus I really liked the lighting there.

I dont recall a scene like this in any of the shit that Disney has spewed.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 12, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Suigetsu, it's okay. The prequels were poorly received. Denial to this extent is just unhealthy. We both know you don't have a legitimate argument to stand on, and it's not good for your to be acting in this manner. There's nothing wrong with liking bad movies. I should know. There is a problem though, with identifying with movies to the point that anything you like cannot possibly be bad because it would reflect poorly on you. Get up. Turn 180 degrees. Go out. Live your life.



Yeah, I don't get what he's going for there, as "The Last Jedi" also got good reviews...

And do you know what else Roger Ebert liked? "The Godfather Part III". That movie actually got good reviews upon release. "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" got good reviews upon release. This doesn't negate their opinions. Sometimes fans, critics and general audiences disagree for a variety of reasons and within a short while, public perception has shifted beyond one side or another.

Some movies that are well reviewed age poorly with the masses. Some movies that did well with the masses, but were reviewed poorly, don't age well. Some movies that don't do well with critics, end up being regarded as masterpieces later on... and sometimes the aging can happen fast. 



MShadows said:


> The worst parts of PT were the abysmal script Lucas had for Jake Loyd's kid Anakin (It was complete cringe, yet the poor kid tried to do his best and wasn't even bad at acting) and Jar Jar. People completely ripped on a poor kid for being forced to carry out a shitty part from a script, which is not only disgusting but also put an end to his career.
> 
> The rest wasn't even bad. Maybe for the OG die hard Star War fans PT wasn't on par with the original trilogy, but you guys are exaggerating.
> 
> ...



Ultimately, the main problem is that with the OT, Lucas was surrounded by people who filtered out his bad ideas. At that point, he wasn't really that famous, so if a line sounded bad, Ford or someone would tell him so and he'd listen. By the time the PT had rolled around, the perception of Lucas had changed. He was now a living legend and the cast probably was somewhat reverential towards him and were less likely to oppose anything he wanted.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, I'm baffled by the attempts to rewrite history in regards to the prequels.



I don't see any revisionism about the Prequel Trilogy's standing. A lot of people have always liked the PT.



> I don't know if they're any more hated than the new films these days, as social media has changed the landscape of hate, but they've always been controversial.



It doesn't hurt the PT that the ST seems to be more universally reviled. 



> Also, does "Weeb" mean something different these days? I always thought it was a derogatory reference towards white people pretending to be Japanese.



>toward white people

No, weeb has always stood for anyone who thinks overly highly of the Japanese. Doesn't matter if you are white, black, brown, or whatever.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Relax honey, you're showing some strain. I mean, here you are parroting the ironic arguments of fellows like myself who LARP as Lucas apologists on /co/ and /tv/, but instead of bringing something new and insightful to the table, all you can do is throw insults and deliberately avoid paying attention to peoples' arguments. TLJ got good reception from the critics, and to an extent, so did TPM, and yet here you are trying to pretend that the latter being true has nothing to do with fan reception despite all the harping on the former's status. Actually take some time away from the keyboard to come up with a decent argument, otherwise you may as well simulate head with your Elan Sleazebaggano figure for all the good it'll do.
> 
> Speaking of which, I miss /swco/. For all the shitposting, there was some good discussion in those threads.



>/co/

90% of them are tumblr and twitter immigrants who unironically apologize for Disney so I would cast high doubts on most of them being fans of the Prequels or Lucas Star Wars in general pre-Disney buyout.

Also holy shit at Kathleen Kennedy not learning her lesson with Solo and TLJ and wanting the Revan/Knights of the Old Republic movie directed by the woman who did a Wrinkle In Time and making the main protagonist a woman of color. Absolutely going to get Solo 2.0 at the box office with that formula.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> I don't see any revisionism about the Prequel Trilogy's standing. A lot of people have always liked the PT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



-- A lot of people also like the ST too. A lot doesn't mean all, or even most though. 

-- So... how are RLM weebs then? Suigetsu used that term, not me. 

Also, how do we consider something universally reviled? It seems like everyone -- and I mean everyone -- will tout either Rotten Tomatoes, the RT audience score, imdb, meta critic, cinemascore, etc... until it suddenly becomes inconvenient for them. Like how TLJ haters used the RT audience score against them, but suddenly that score was unreliable when Captain Marvel got a good rating.

Are we just going off of our own observations and experiences? Because that also seems to contradict any claim that the prequels were either loved or hated.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> -- A lot of people also like the ST too. A lot doesn't mean all, or even most though.
> 
> -- So... how are RLM weebs then? Suigetsu used that term, not me.
> 
> ...



I would say there has been a massive cognitive change in how the Sequels and Disney Star Wars films in general are viewed after The Last Jedi and Solo dropped in. Jeremy/Geeks and Gamers used to be THE voice in the Star Wars fandom defending The Force Awakens and now more then a year after The Last Jedi admits he ignored a lot of TFA's issues intentionally to try and give the Sequels a chance and absolutely despises what Disney and Kathleen Kennedy in particular has done.

I don't know how RLM are weebs but they definitely are people who I consider to be shills and likely pad their views since they do have pull, also the fact if anyone or organization gives a Disney film a strongly negative review always get blocked or prevented from early screenings by Disney (they did this repeatedly to the Sun for years). 

As for aggregated reviews and sites like RT, the entire fiasco with the Dave Chapelle special Sticks and Stones and the massive discrepancy between fan/audience vs critic reviews, I don't generally put much stock in them in general. I would say the best barometer is how the fans view something vs critics generally. TLJ is still sitting at 44% with audience scores on RT, which is still the worst fan reception to any Star Wars film ever. 

More than that though, the amount of negative content I've seen against the Sequels outweighs whatever I seen for other films in the OT or PT on social media and other platforms.


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## Son Of Man (Sep 12, 2019)

Anyone read the snoke comic?


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## MartialHorror (Sep 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> I would say there has been a massive cognitive change in how the Sequels and Disney Star Wars films in general are viewed after The Last Jedi and Solo dropped in. Jeremy/Geeks and Gamers used to be THE voice in the Star Wars fandom defending The Force Awakens and now more then a year after The Last Jedi admits he ignored a lot of TFA's issues intentionally to try and give the Sequels a chance and absolutely despises what Disney and Kathleen Kennedy in particular has done.
> 
> I don't know how RLM are weebs but they definitely are people who I consider to be shills and likely pad their views since they do have pull, also the fact if anyone or organization gives a Disney film a strongly negative review always get blocked or prevented from early screenings by Disney (they did this repeatedly to the Sun for years).
> 
> ...



I don't want RLM consistently, but are they really shills? They initially gave a positive review of TFA, but the official RLM was more negative, their thoughts on "Rogue One" were negative and they were at best, lukewarm towards TLJ. I haven't seen their "Solo" review. So if they're shills, they definitely have a strange strategy for shilling.

But where I'm asking is where exactly do the fan ratings come from? Because every website I've been on that has a Star Wars related forum is different. Some are more favorable towards ST, others not. Some are more politically motivated, others not. Narutoforums seems more lenient towards shitposting, so it attracts that kind of crowd, who's usually more interested in stirring up shit than discussing a movie.

Also, the animated Clone Wars movie has a 39% audience score rating, so TLJ technically doesn't have 'the worst'... although I know what you mean, lol. 



NostalgiaFan said:


> Unlike you I can actually back up my claims because anyone with eyes can check the box office track records of the new movies and other merchandise like toys, book, and games and see them underperforming to downright tanking in sells which never happened during the PT. So spare me the try hard snide comments if they are the only thing you have.



My issue with this is that you're deliberately ignoring that the landscape of film has changed since the 1990's. Everything's so franchised up right now, with Disney owning Star Wars and Marvel, arguably the two biggest properties of all time.

In 2017, every movie in the top 10 grossing of the year was part of a bigger franchise. In 2018, there was only one movie that wasn't part of a franchise (Bohemian Rhapsody). In 1999 and 2002, 6 of the top 10 were part of a franchise, in 2005, seven were... and I'm counting adaptations of comics, ect... "The Mummy" and "Spider-Man" would've been considered risky at those times, whereas most of the higher grossing films these days are conceptually safer.

I'm not saying that there isn't a genuine backlash and it is effecting the numbers, but franchises are much more competitive right now and most general moviegoing audiences can't afford to see every single one -- and most would probably favor the MCU anyway, as its our current generations blockbuster franchise.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I don't want RLM consistently, but are they really shills? They initially gave a positive review of TFA, but the official RLM was more negative, their thoughts on "Rogue One" were negative and they were at best, lukewarm towards TLJ. I haven't seen their "Solo" review. So if they're shills, they definitely have a strange strategy for shilling.
> 
> But where I'm asking is where exactly do the fan ratings come from? Because every website I've been on that has a Star Wars related forum is different. Some are more favorable towards ST, others not. Some are more politically motivated, others not. Narutoforums seems more lenient towards shitposting, so it attracts that kind of crowd, who's usually more interested in stirring up shit than discussing a movie.
> 
> Also, the animated Clone Wars movie has a 39% audience score rating, so TLJ technically doesn't have 'the worst'... although I know what you mean, lol.



Nah, they glossed over everything wrong with TFA and crucified Rogue One for the same issues. Stolakasa/Mike is a huge shill, he'll pad his reviews at RLM in favor of corporate sponsorship and advertisement to get his own brand out there. You also can't poison the well, I have yet to see any single Star Wars film ever attract the wave of negativity, outrage, or outcries about where the franchise has been pointed at and away from the core fans like Disney has done with TLJ and subsequent films after that.

I have absolutely zero faith anyways in RLM or what they say or believe is "fair" to critique a movie over. There's apparently one standard for movies, another for Lucas's Star Wars films, and yet another for the Disney ones. Point-blank, I don't consider them credible given how much of a cognitive dissonance they showed off contrasting TFA and R1. Much less the fact they went in with the gloves on TLJ.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 12, 2019)

Just out of curiosity, were there any competing franchises throughout the 1990's or early 2000's?

I know "Lord of the Rings" was around and the only time it took on Star Wars directly was in 2002, where "The Two Towers" decisively beat "Attack of the Clones". Harry Potter did as well. In 1999, the only major franchise "The Phantom Menace" went up against was James Bond ("The World is Not Enough"), which is defeated with ease. It also beat Toy Story 2, but it wasn't quite a franchise yet. Harry Potter would beat episode 3 again in 2005.

It's strange looking at the box office numbers back then and remembering a time where there was some... SOME... original content.



Fang said:


> Nah, they glossed over everything wrong with TFA and crucified Rogue One for the same issues. Stolakasa/Mike is a huge shill, he'll pad his reviews at RLM in favor of corporate sponsorship and advertisement to get his own brand out there. You also can't poison the well, I have yet to see any single Star Wars film ever attract the wave of negativity, outrage, or outcries about where the franchise has been pointed at and away from the core fans like Disney has done with TLJ and subsequent films after that.
> 
> I have absolutely zero faith anyways in RLM or what they say or believe is "fair" to critique a movie over. There's apparently one standard for movies, another for Lucas's Star Wars films, and yet another for the Disney ones. Point-blank, I don't consider them credible given how much of a cognitive dissonance they showed off contrasting TFA and R1. Much less the fact they went in with the gloves on TLJ.



I can't really debate this point as I don't really follow RLM. But I disagree with Suigetsu, who insisted earlier that they're responsible for the backlash against the prequels. If that's the case, then the fandom is weak willed and incapable of forming their own opinions, so it wouldn't matter if they like or dislike the new films. (That's the only reason RLM was brought up in the first place)


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## MartialHorror (Sep 12, 2019)

The Phantom Menace grossed 1.027 billion dollars.
Attack of the Clone did 649 million dollars.

The Force Awakens did 2.068 billion.
The Last Jedi did 1.332 billion dollars.

So there was a 45% drop between TPM and AotC, but a 43% between TFA and TLJ... Is my math wrong? Did I do something wrong? 

Yeah, the spin-offs have steeper numbers, but they're spin-offs. I do agree Disney probably damaged the brand by doing too many of those at once, especially with the behind-the-scenes drama that dogged them.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, were there any competing franchises throughout the 1990's or early 2000's?
> 
> I know "Lord of the Rings" was around and the only time it took on Star Wars directly was in 2002, where "The Two Towers" decisively beat "Attack of the Clones". Harry Potter did as well. In 1999, the only major franchise "The Phantom Menace" went up against was James Bond ("The World is Not Enough"), which is defeated with ease. It also beat Toy Story 2, but it wasn't quite a franchise yet. Harry Potter would beat episode 3 again in 2005.



IIRC Late 90s to early/mid 2000s had:

- Prequel Trilogy (Episodes I - III)
- The Matrix Trilogy
- Lord of the Rings
- X-Men Trilogy




> I can't really debate this point as I don't really follow RLM. But I disagree with Suigetsu, who insisted earlier that they're responsible for the backlash against the prequels. If that's the case, then the fandom is weak willed and incapable of forming their own opinions, so it wouldn't matter if they like or dislike the new films. (That's the only reason RLM was brought up in the first place)



RLM aren't entirely responsible for the backlash but they are the main pillar Prequel haters typically point to when pushed to debate their claims about why the Prequels are bad. RLM did get a letter asking them to debate, or rather Mike himself, a person on his critiquing and why he needed to defend it to be valid as a movie critic and his response was to tell those people to fuck off because he said it took too much time. Mind you, editing together, splicing, and making those anti-prequel RLM movie reviews probably took him weeks with each one so I always found that a weak defense.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> IIRC Late 90s to early/mid 2000s had:
> 
> - Prequel Trilogy (Episodes I - III)
> - The Matrix Trilogy
> ...



The Matrix sequels and X-Men never competed against Star Wars.

Everyone of any side will always have a pillar. You seem to be one for the detractors in this forum, as I've seen your sentences taken word for word by others, as if they wrote it themselves. 

I watched the RLM prequel reviews and I saw them more as entertainment than valid critics, but... if that's how people want to look at them... but I'd argue they're only influential if people never really liked them in the first place. People tend to flock towards "critics" who share their own opinions on the subject matter. It's easier to rip off someone else's observations than to make their own.

Like our good buddy NostalgiaFan.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 12, 2019)

Random observation in regards to the top 10 highest grossing films per year, 

In 1997, there was only one franchise property (James Bond) that broke the list. In 1980, there were 3. In 1983, there was 3... How in the fuck did "Staying Alive" do so well?

Just goes to show how there really is very little of anything original these days. Everythings a franchise.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 14, 2019)

Besides the fact that these last couple of pages weren't even about EP9 itself but about franchises' merchandise impacts, if those of you that can't keep things civil and shamelessly resort to baiting, name-calling to outright insults in your arguments to those you're replying to then this is what is going to happen with your posts. And it will keep happening unless you moderate yourselves if you don't want me to do it for you.

This is not the Café nor the Battledome, save your passive aggressive behaviour to those places where they're welcomed, not bring them here if you are only going to fan more the flames about tired subjects that were already discussed in TLJ thread until it got too overwhelmingly toxic and inflammatory to have an adequate discussion. It's not worth it now nor after EP9 comes out.

You've all argued over two days in a row, maybe even more. Time to take a break guys.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 14, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Besides the fact that these last couple of pages weren't even about EP9 itself but about franchises' merchandise impacts, if those of you that can't keep things civil and shamelessly resort to baiting, name-calling to outright insults in your arguments to those you're replying to then this is what is going to happen with your posts. And it will keep happening unless you moderate yourselves if you don't want me to do it for you.
> 
> This is not the Café nor the Battledome, save your passive aggressive behaviour to those places where they're welcomed, not bring them here if you are only going to fan more the flames about tired subjects that were already discussed in TLJ thread until it got too overwhelmingly toxic and inflammatory to have an adequate discussion. It's not worth it now nor after EP9 comes out.
> 
> You've all argued over two days in a row, maybe even more. Time to take a break guys.



You probably should moderate us, lol.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 14, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> This is not the Café nor the Battledome, save your passive aggressive behaviour to those places where they're welcomed, not bring them here if you are only going to fan more the flames about tired subjects that were already discussed in TLJ thread until it got too overwhelmingly toxic and inflammatory to have an adequate discussion. It's not worth it now nor after EP9 comes out..


I find this part hilarious because not only were you just letting guys like Kuromaku and Deathbringer post their passive aggressive insults and accusations of "lies" on people arguing against them, you rated their posts positively and have let them stay despite making yourself sound like you are making a stand against such conduct.

If you are gonna do your job as a moderator and keep down such "toxicity" maybe hold yourself and everyone else up to said standards and perhaps stamp out any sort of passive aggressive behavior in these threads to begin with. Because as it is right now you are barely doing much to begin with around here to justify your holler than thou attitude.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 14, 2019)

Meh, I remember getting shit because I called the Star Wars fandom toxic. But this is the only fandom that I've ever been a part of where you can't have an opinion without people going crazy. Even other threads turn into poison once Star Wars is brought up.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 14, 2019)

cant wait for this thread when the movie comes out


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 14, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Meh, I remember getting shit because I called the Star Wars fandom toxic. But this is the only fandom that I've ever been a part of where you can't have an opinion without people going crazy. Even other threads turn into poison once Star Wars is brought up.


I don't know what it is with some of the Star Wars fandom, either.

I feel it comes down to who you debate with. It's too easy to encounter fandom toxicity when people feel anonymity and a platform where they can find others that agree with them allows them to say whatever they want without consequence. Because of those factors, they feel this gives them the authority to decide things like "who's a 'real fan' and who's not".


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 14, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I find this part hilarious because not only were you just letting guys like Kuromaku and Deathbringer post their passive aggressive insults and accusations of "lies" on people arguing against them, you rated their posts positively and have let them stay despite making yourself sound like you are making a stand against such conduct.
> 
> If you are gonna do your job as a moderator and keep down such "toxicity" maybe hold yourself and everyone else up to said standards and perhaps stamp out any sort of passive aggressive behavior in these threads to begin with. Because as it is right now you are barely doing much to begin with around here to justify your holler than thou attitude.



I dealt with the majority of Kuromaku's posts because they were snarky, baiting and patronizing, which then you answered with the same tone of passive aggressiveness instead of just reporting him for antagonizing you. I only agreed with one of Deathbringer's posts because nothing says I'm not allowed to be in agreement or disagreement with someone and he let it go before it escalated further.

But if me rating in favour of the people you're debating against  is an issue that doesn't sit well with you then I have no problem in toning it down. Rather make all the mistakes now than after when the movie is out.

Just as long as you also stop calling others "^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)", "Neanderthal", "dolt", "moron", "dumbnut", "unhinged", "delusional toddler" and etc when you're debating because if it keeps going we're going to have troubles and we'll be starting all over again with the wrong foot and by then, there will be no justification for the same repeated offenses.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 14, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> I dealt with the majority of Kuromaku's posts because they were snarky, baiting and patronizing, which then you answered with the same tone of passive aggressiveness instead of just reporting him for antagonizing you. I only agreed with one of Deathbringer's posts because nothing says I'm not allowed to be in agreement or disagreement with someone and he let it go before it escalated further.


"antagonizing" me? Being honest I did not even feel the brunt of his snark outside of like one post, Sugi and MS were feeling the brunt more than anything really and were not even close to as impolite for it. Considering how you were only editing my curses I was under no impression you needed me to inform you to nip it in the bud before it escalated which just gave me the idea my little back and forth with them was allowed.

And I fail to see how this post you gave a "win" to from Kuro


Kuromaku said:


> *Suigetsu, you really don't have to lie about the reception to the prequels.* I actually was there, with both social circles and pop culture. My social circles were mostly indifferent, but pop culture? Pop culture was mocking it from early on. There's a reason Jar Jar became so hated and Jake Lloyd had his life ruined, on top of Natalie Portman fearing for her career for a short while.


Does not fall into the passive aggressive attitude you say is unwelcome here. Accusing someone of a lie for simply disagreeing sounds no better than most of what you deleted from this thread already.


If I am can give some advice best to not relay on being tagged or called for to end these sort of things if they give off signs of escalation on the first go. I am fine with my posts being deleted so long as it does not look to be in bias of other's posts that are cut from the same cloth.


Sennin of Hardwork said:


> But if me rating in favour of the people you're debating against  is an issue that doesn't sit well with you then I have no problem in toning it down. Rather make all the mistakes now than after when the movie is out.


It just rubs me the wrong way when you delete all but one of my posts but are found keeping and even agreeing with ones that come off as no better. Comes off as picking favors which as a moderator should be avoided so I hope you keep up on your word.


Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Just as long as you also stop calling others "^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)", "Neanderthal", "dolt", "moron", "dumbnut", "unhinged", "delusional toddler" and etc when you're debating because if it keeps going we're going to have troubles and we'll be starting all over again with the wrong foot and by then, there will be no justification for the same repeated offenses.


Fine by me, if my foul language is too much for you I can make changes to my posts here and keep it clean.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 14, 2019)

Deleting my post calling Catalysts lies about old school SW fans by citing new trilogy fans being the only ones who threaten to murder critics and also deleting  my posts that reference whistleblowers coming out and listkng Disney's criminal attempts to inflate their movie figures is not in any way objective @Sennin of Hardwork


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## Fang (Sep 14, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Besides the fact that these last couple of pages weren't even about EP9 itself but about franchises' merchandise impacts, if those of you that can't keep things civil and shamelessly resort to baiting, name-calling to outright insults in your arguments to those you're replying to then this is what is going to happen with your posts. And it will keep happening unless you moderate yourselves if you don't want me to do it for you.
> 
> This is not the Café nor the Battledome, save your passive aggressive behaviour to those places where they're welcomed, not bring them here if you are only going to fan more the flames about tired subjects that were already discussed in TLJ thread until it got too overwhelmingly toxic and inflammatory to have an adequate discussion. It's not worth it now nor after EP9 comes out.
> 
> You've all argued over two days in a row, maybe even more. Time to take a break guys.



Every single new Star Wars film has become a meta discussion on the franchise, its direction, and where the fandom has split. And I use the word "fandom" tentatively because there are quite a few posters in this thread who are merely latching onto Disney Star Wars because they know several of us do not like these films, their direction, and how Lucas Films has behaved since Episode VII came out. This comes with the territory, as long as no one is flaming, baiting, insulting, or otherwise being obstructive, I don't think this is an issue at all.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 14, 2019)

Why are you even a mod @Sennin of Hardwork ? There are people flaming, baiting and being snarky rather than discussing the subject and topic. And this isnt the first time that this happens, I think we should have a different mod because you arent working as you are supposed to.


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## BlazingInferno (Sep 15, 2019)

Lmao, this is all gold. Pretty sure the only thing he’s done with his position is have me banned for mocking his posting habits  Definitely saving all this before it all inevitably gets trashed.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 15, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "antagonizing" me? Being honest I did not even feel the brunt of his snark outside of like one post, Sugi and MS were feeling the brunt more than anything really and were not even close to as impolite for it. Considering how you were only editing my curses I was under no impression you needed me to inform you to nip it in the bud before it escalated which just gave me the idea my little back and forth with them was allowed.
> 
> And I fail to see how this post you gave a "win" to from Kuro
> 
> ...



First thing I do is edit posts in these cases to avoid escalation and if that doesn't work then I start to delete in an attempt to cool things down. Back then on Wednesday when he made that post things still were not as heated as the rest of the debates that came next so I didn't feel forbidden to give that rating to his post which also acknowledged that Disney didn't know what to do with Star Wars. It wasn't a rating just meant for the part you brought up. And as a fan of the PT who has read all the criticism and hate it got before the new trilogy came out and seen how things have changed, some of the things he said resonated with me.

I will pay more attention to those kind of accusations next time regardless. It's hard to be unbiased but I will try more nevertheless.



NostalgiaFan said:


> It just rubs me the wrong way when you delete all but one of my posts but are found keeping and even agreeing with ones that come off as no better. Comes off as picking favors which as a moderator should be avoided so I hope you keep up on your word.



I will try harder to consider everything as unbiasedly as I from now own, I'm here to try to facilitate things for everyone in the end. It's specially hard in this one because each of you are invested a lot in this in your own way, I'm the same as well except I have to keep check of my own and watch over all of you first and how you behave here. I'll try to be more fair.



NostalgiaFan said:


> Fine by me, if my foul language is too much for you I can make changes to my posts here and keep it clean.



Sounds good.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Deleting my post calling Catalysts lies about old school SW fans by citing new trilogy fans being the only ones who threaten to murder critics and also deleting  my posts that reference whistleblowers coming out and listkng Disney's criminal attempts to inflate their movie figures is not in any way objective @Sennin of Hardwork



You were openly baiting him with the thing same thing that I just talked above with NostalgiaFan about pointing fingers and accusing others of lies and such, you weren't looking for a discussion but for a fight when I've been trying to cool everyone here down. That's why I did, is nothing personal against you. 

The whistleblower matter has nothing to do with what or won't happen in this movie and it's plot, to me it sounded like a different subject that did not belong here but somewhere else. I was just trying to keep things on topic and back on the road, not to silence you. If I did by any chance or accident then I'm sorry it gave you that impression. 



Fang said:


> Every single new Star Wars film has become a meta discussion on the franchise, its direction, and where the fandom has split. And I use the word "fandom" tentatively because there are quite a few posters in this thread who are merely latching onto Disney Star Wars because they know several of us do not like these films, their direction, and how Lucas Films has behaved since Episode VII came out. This comes with the territory, as long as no one is flaming, baiting, insulting, or otherwise being obstructive, I don't think this is an issue at all.



They are still fans of Star Wars just like you and me, what we've got over the last four years is, for better or for worse, what is canon so I really don't see the point in saying it tentatively, we are all in the same fandom here. At some point the topic became about previous' box offices comparisons of past entries and how they fared against other competitors back then, irrelevant to whatever competition EP9 will have to go through this time in a few months in December.

No need to do any of those things nor forget there is another person at the other side of the screen. Easier said that done but that is what I am striving for here.



Suigetsu said:


> Why are you even a mod @Sennin of Hardwork ? There are people flaming, baiting and being snarky rather than discussing the subject and topic. And this isnt the first time that this happens, I think we should have a different mod because you arent working as you are supposed to.



I handled those already as I saw it best, you were unfortunately also one of those that did all of the things you listed so some of your posts were deleted. But I reconsidered and edited Kuromaku's posts where he accused you of lying.

However and I am going to be clear with this: if you continue to name call me in your reports I will stop taking them. I have not disrespected you at any moment Suigetsu. It shouldn't be too much to as to treat others as you would like to be treated.



BlazingInferno said:


> Lmao, this is all gold. Pretty sure the only thing he’s done with his position is have me banned for mocking his posting habits  Definitely saving all this before it all inevitably gets trashed.



You flamed me for no reason at all and as usual, unprovoked and because you really can't let bygones be bygones despite me offering to turn a new page and even apologizing when I shouldn't just in order to get whatever it was that got you so upset with me behind, like adults would. It's sadly fruitless with you.

And it wasn't even me who banned you, I didn't do that because I don't have those mod powers. Do with that whatever you want to do.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Sep 15, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Meh, I remember getting shit because I called the Star Wars fandom toxic. But this is the only fandom that I've ever been a part of where you can't have an opinion without people going crazy. Even other threads turn into poison once Star Wars is brought up.


Care to elaborate on this fandom dictatorship?
Tell me, when did this start?


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## Juub (Sep 15, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Meh, I remember getting shit because I called the Star Wars fandom toxic. But this is the only fandom that I've ever been a part of where you can't have an opinion without people going crazy. Even other threads turn into poison once Star Wars is brought up.


Every passionate fanbase mate.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Suigetsu (Sep 15, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> I handled those already as I saw it best, you were unfortunately also one of those that did all of the things you listed so some of your posts were deleted. But I reconsidered and edited Kuromaku's posts where he accused you of lying.
> 
> However and I am going to be clear with this: if you continue to name call me in your reports I will stop taking them. I have not disrespected you at any moment Suigetsu. It shouldn't be too much to as to treat others as you would like to be treated.



Then do your job and put a limit rather than “silencing editing posts” because when there is a complete absence of action then that just leaves the users to their very own devices. Hence what is happening, all you are doing is accusing others in a savage manner when it was you who allowed this to escalate.

Hence why users don't see to respect you. If you need help then ask other mods for some advice.
Seriously you have clear flaming and trolling and you dont even tell them to knock it off.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 15, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> You were openly baiting him with the thing same thing that I just talked above with NostalgiaFan about pointing fingers and accusing others of lies and such, you weren't looking for a discussion but for a fight when I've been trying to cool everyone here down.



And this is based on what? Your extensive personal experience and impeccable judgment? Reading comprehension?

Ignoring the fact that Catalyst has a history of dishonestly phrasing things and making very passive attacks on whole groups of people he disagrees with and then proceeds to hide behind his personal issues to play the victim to dupe you mods into requesting bans on his behalf? @Fang Can go on at length about the kind of despicable misconduct he gets up too and the vast majority of users in the OBD want him gone from the entire section for this reason.

And here let's review this post.



Catalyst75 said:


> I don't know what it is with some of the Star Wars fandom, either.
> 
> I feel it comes down to who you debate with. It's too easy to encounter fandom toxicity when people feel anonymity and a platform where they can find others that agree with them allows them to say whatever they want without consequence. Because of those factors, they feel this gives them the authority to decide things like "who's a 'real fan' and who's not".



This would be Catty speak for an attack on us designed to provoke us into verbally slapping him down. My response to that was to point out the only fans that have engaged in this conduct including death threats were New Trilogy fans..I could go on about how Chuck Wendig a writer for Star wars was more or less fired for his attacks on older fans and purists...But I'm sure you'll selectively ignore that too

So no, you are astoundingly wrong..You are engaging in a one sided defense of various users in this thread because you happen to share their biases.



Sennin of Hardwork said:


> That's why I did, is nothing personal against you.



Yeah let's try not to misrepresent my posts while feigning moral outrage that others are doing it to you and yours. I never accused you of having a personal issue with me...I didn't even know you existed until you had a metaphorical seizure in conduct on this issue...What I said was, you are moderating as if you are compromised..and have a personal interest in silencing criticism of these films and the companies that produced them.



Sennin of Hardwork said:


> The whistleblower matter has nothing to do with what or won't happen in this movie and it's plot, to me it sounded like a different subject that did not belong here but somewhere else. I was just trying to keep things on topic and back on the road, not to silence you. If I did by any chance or accident then I'm sorry it gave you that impression.



To quote Skek'sil "ffaalllsse!" It has everything to do with this movie, this franchise and this IP. To the point that Disney has gone back, shot multiple endings, rewritten the script on the fly and is desperately trying to prevent this from becoming a turkey when they know they cannot use traditional methods to do so. And despite the scrutiny, they're already threatening reviewers, buying critics and pressuring theatres to violate the Sherman Act.

IE the repeated, profound and insistent pattern of criminal conduct exhibited by the Walt Disney Corporation in relation to this film franchise is an ongoing thing and is very relevant to this film. It has dramatically impacted the filming schedule, the reshoots, the media reaction and it will dramatically impact the release.

You not being able to see this, doesn't change that it only makes you look like you have a personal issue.


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## BlazingInferno (Sep 15, 2019)




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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 15, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> Then do your job and put a limit rather than “silencing editing posts” because when there is a complete absence of action then that just leaves the users to their very own devices. Hence what is happening, all you are doing is accusing others in a savage manner when it was you who allowed this to escalate.
> 
> Hence why users don't see to respect you. If you need help then ask other mods for some advice.
> Seriously you have clear flaming and trolling and you dont even tell them to knock it off.



“Accusing others in a savage manner” is quite the exaggeration because I've been replying to pretty much everyone here that was dissatisfied with the events of the weekend, yourself included and your uncalled for insults all in order to find a semblance of common ground. There isn’t anymore of that now and once again, I'll be stricter with those forward.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> And this is based on what? Your extensive personal experience and impeccable judgment? Reading comprehension?
> 
> Ignoring the fact that Catalyst has a history of dishonestly phrasing things and making very passive attacks on whole groups of people he disagrees with and then proceeds to hide behind his personal issues to play the victim to dupe you mods into requesting bans on his behalf? @Fang Can go on at length about the kind of despicable misconduct he gets up too and the vast majority of users in the OBD want him gone from the entire section for this reason.
> 
> ...



Based on the way you replied to him, which isn’t not so different in how you are doing it right now to me being passive aggressive when I haven't given you that that kind of treatment. I don't know Catalyst personally like you and others do due to the OBD has never been a section of my interest and I don’t mod it either. I would not have put on ignore the SW writer thing because that does not affect any member here, but okay, I am starting to see what you mean.

If I am and have been astoundingly wrong like you say then good, I will learn from your complaints and others to improve to avoid another situation like this to happen again. I already told others that I will check my own bias as well.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Yeah let's try not to misrepresent my posts while feigning moral outrage that others are doing it to you and yours. I never accused you of having a personal issue with me...I didn't even know you existed until you had a metaphorical seizure in conduct on this issue...What I said was, you are moderating as if you are compromised..and have a personal interest in silencing criticism of these films and the companies that produced them.



The only thing I am interested here is that no one here takes things too & says something that can’t be taken back over a piece of fiction. I have no gain in silencing you or anyone else in favor of something that is bigger than me and all of us. Still, I apologize for giving you the wrong impression in how I have been doing things.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> To quote Skek'sil "ffaalllsse!" It has everything to do with this movie, this franchise and this IP. To the point that Disney has gone back, shot multiple endings, rewritten the script on the fly and is desperately trying to prevent this from becoming a turkey when they know they cannot use traditional methods to do so. And despite the scrutiny, they're already threatening reviewers, buying critics and pressuring theatres to violate the Sherman Act.
> 
> IE the repeated, profound and insistent pattern of criminal conduct exhibited by the Walt Disney Corporation in relation to this film franchise is an ongoing thing and is very relevant to this film. It has dramatically impacted the filming schedule, the reshoots, the media reaction and it will dramatically impact the release.
> 
> You not being able to see this, doesn't change that it only makes you look like you have a personal issue.



Reshoots and shooting multiple endings is not per se a secret or something that is wrong because many do that nowadays in order to avoid leaks so I wouldn’t get in that way of you discussing that nor with your other arguments about bought critics and threatened reviewers. I do think you should provide sources such as links to verify them and others can see it. 

I will not play bias nor be selective in it as long as you and everyone else behaves accordingly. I will put effort to improve but you guys need to do it as well, if not then none of this is worth it.


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 15, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Anyone read the snoke comic?



I saw the Snoke comic. I think it did a good job building upon what we saw of Snoke's character, both in "The Force Awakens" and "The Last Jedi", and Kylo Ren's character as well.

It showed that, even back then, Snoke hated Kylo's mask and was abusive towards him while putting on the appearance of a "wise teacher". Furthermore, it showed Snoke's arrogance in his interpretation of Kylo Ren's intent and emotions. He thought Kylo was cutting down the image of his parents in the Dagobah cave when, in fact, Kylo Ren cut apart the roots of the tree, and followed up with blowing the entire cave apart to cover up what Snoke would call his "failure".

In Kylo's case, even though he was able to cut down the image of Luke Skywalker, he could not do the same to the image of his parents, a vision showing that, despite his descent to the Dark Side and his own feelings, a part of Kylo Ren still loved them.


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 15, 2019)

@Sennin of Hardwork Given everything we know about the film so far, what would you say you are most interested in seeing in the upcoming film?

Of course, the confirmation of Palpatine's return of Episode IX is likely what has people most excited, but I am also interested in the hidden fleet of Star Destroyers we saw in the second trailer. I've already heard speculation that these new versions of the Imperial Star Destroyers will be fitted with Death Star tech, similar to the miniaturized siege cannon we saw in "Last Jedi", and like the guns on the ship planned for a future release of Star Wars Armada, the Onager-class.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 15, 2019)

Seems we have a rebel alliance fighting  against the narutoforums empire officials in this thread.

Haven't seen the Snoke comic and don't want to.
So I basically don't know shit about him.
I get expanding something through alternate mediums, but needing it for basic characterization of a major character of 2/3 of a trilogy ...

Fuck that shit. That's just poor story telling.
They say show not tell, but now they aren't even telling anymore. . .


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 15, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Seems we have a rebel alliance fighting  against the narutoforums empire officials in this thread.
> 
> Haven't seen the Snoke comic and don't want to.
> So I basically don't know shit about him.
> ...


Shit like that is one of the biggest issues with the ST.


 "Why does C3PO have a red arm? Read this Comic/Book if you wanna find out!"

Fucking annoying.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 15, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> @Sennin of Hardwork Given everything we know about the film so far, what would you say you are most interested in seeing in the upcoming film?



I'd like to know why they all end up going to Endor and to the ruins of the Death Star since it's a basically a graveyard. It probably, no certainly, must have something to do with Palpatine and his influence in the plot though.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 15, 2019)

lol, it is pretty funny how we all complained that the prequels existed mainly to sell games and toys... and the sequels exist to sell comics, apparently.

Honestly, it's not something I think about, as I don't read comics. I had forgotten about the arm. I took more issue with Darth Maul appearing in solo, because that was a big deal and I never paid attention to the TV shows. 

It was funny. When Vader appeared at the end of "Rogue One", the audience cheered. When Maul appeared at the end of "Solo", they were audibly confused. I think most people who watch Star Wars are general audiences who might watch the movies, but aren't passionate and don't follow the EU.


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 16, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> I'd like to know why they all end up going to Endor and to the ruins of the Death Star since it's a basically a graveyard. It probably, no certainly, must have something to do with Palpatine and his influence in the plot though.



In all likelihood, it may be because part of Palpatine's essence was bound to the ruins of the Death Star upon his death, just as some suspect he did the same with Darth Vader's helmet. In the Darth Vader comics recently released, there was a Sith Lord from the past - Lord Momin - whose essence was bound up in his helmet after his physical body disintegrated.

Since that was revealed, theories about it being Palpatine's essence in Vader's Mask have abounded, especially considering that Anakin redeemed himself and became a Force Ghost, and the fact Vader's armor, particularly his mask, was soaked with Palpatine's Force Lightning at the end there. It is possible that one of the reveals for Episode IX is that Vader's Mask did indeed show Kylo Ren the Dark Side once, but it was Palpatine who did so, disguising his presence as Vader's.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 16, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> In all likelihood, it may be because part of Palpatine's essence was bound to the ruins of the Death Star upon his death, just as some suspect he did the same with Darth Vader's helmet. In the Darth Vader comics recently released, there was a Sith Lord from the past - Lord Momin - whose essence was bound up in his helmet after his physical body disintegrated.
> 
> Since that was revealed, theories about it being Palpatine's essence in Vader's Mask have abounded, especially considering that Anakin redeemed himself and became a Force Ghost, and the fact Vader's armor, particularly his mask, was soaked with Palpatine's Force Lightning at the end there. It is possible that one of the reveals for Episode IX is that Vader's Mask did indeed show Kylo Ren the Dark Side once, but it was Palpatine who did so, disguising his presence as Vader's.



All that sounds a lot closer and more within of SW lore than anything I could possibly think of, like Palpatine somehow became an A.I. because he was thrown down that hole while still shooting lightning all over the place. =P Kudos if that turns out to be true.


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> They are still fans of Star Wars just like you and me, what we've got over the last four years is, for better or for worse, what is canon so I really don't see the point in saying it tentatively, we are all in the same fandom here. At some point the topic became about previous' box offices comparisons of past entries and how they fared against other competitors back then, irrelevant to whatever competition EP9 will have to go through this time in a few months in December.
> 
> No need to do any of those things nor forget there is another person at the other side of the screen. Easier said that done but that is what I am striving for here.



I don't have an issue with someone liking Disney Star Wars films. I don't care even if those people consider that the true "canon" because that's all opinion based and entirely subjective (to me the only canon Star Wars was when Lucas owned it). My issue is when people like Catalyst and his like-minded friends start aping and copying what Rian Johnson does and accusing anyone with issues with these movies as being Russian trolls, the alt-right, incels, and so on to poison the well over and over while further injecting their political agenda into this gets tiring.  In my opinion, which isn't a minority one, I do not like the direction and story telling the Sequels have gone through; from the executive decisions of Kathleen Kennedy to the political-baiting and absolute madness officials in the company (or rather former ones in the case of Chuck Wendig) have espoused at people who have severe problems.

Let me give you one example, Weiss/Shiba, is a troll. He used to post in the OBD a few years ago, his entire shtick was shit-talking about Star Wars and bitching about it because the posters who liked it before the Disney buyout of the brand from George Lucas happened to despise him for MANY reasons due to his behavior. Now, unironically, he spends plenty of time baiting and shitposting for the express purpose of pissing people off by waxing poetic and extolling everything the Sequels have done. That is his endgame.  So you really do not understand the schadenfreude here that someone like me has at this point with him and Catalyst regarding Star Wars dying under Disney. So as a Star Wars fan, when I see the massive decline in quality, and the IP dropping off from consecutive mishandlings with the brand, its PR, and so on, its not a fun sight.

And as for the talking about box office projections, revenue, toy sales, video games, etc...Star Wars has ALWAYS been a massive multimedia brand. Its going to always end up being brought up because its just another part of the fandom that includes me and others here that will point it out with how Disney has mismanaged the IP.

I grew up with Star Wars, I have _*literally *_spent tens of thousands of dollars on the brand; as kid from collecting figures, to buying all of the novels, comics, graphic novels, video games, merchandise and so on. If I'm left dissatisfied and someone rails at me for having issues, that's a problem.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The worst parts of PT were the abysmal script Lucas had for Jake Loyd's kid Anakin (It was complete cringe, yet the poor kid tried to do his best and wasn't even bad at acting) and Jar Jar. People completely ripped on a poor kid for being forced to carry out a shitty part from a script, which is not only disgusting but also put an end to his career.
> 
> The rest wasn't even bad. Maybe for the OG die hard Star War fans PT wasn't on par with the original trilogy, but you guys are exaggerating.
> 
> ...


I’m sorry but the Prequel trilogy was garbage and much worse then the current trilogy.

Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones have some of the most boring 1st and 2nd Acts in the history of Adventure / Sci-fi / Fantasy Films; and the writing does nothing to justify, as the time is not spent giving us any interesting depth to the characters or entertaining interactions; instead you largely get cringe worthy plots with Jar Jar and Anakin (Both Young and Teen). I actually don’t blame Lucas for this I blame the studio putting pressure on him to make the films more family friendly and steering him away from the idea of a darker Vader; forcing us to spend time on Child Anakins pod racing and his Teen love drama with Padme. Ether way though the only thing in the new trilogy that comes even close to that level is Casino planet sub plot but it’s equally as bad if not better then this.

The ending of both had some entertaining lightsaber battles, but that’s it; everything else action wise in both movies was garbage. This is why enter Revenge of the Sith; and the only thing action wise they focus on was Lightsaber duels.

Anyway revenge of the Sith is a much better movie the those 2, but only because it delivers action wise; while being garbage everywhere else.  The plot and Anakin change to the dark side is as under-explained and lazy as anything in the new trilogy; and acted twice as bad. And the conclusion to the conflict is about the laziest way anyone could have ended that movie with some bullshit asspull about the high ground allowing Obi Wan to beat Anakin, never mind that It makes no sense Obi Wan can even fight evenly with Anakin in the first place when he  beat Dooku; who crush Obi Wan; and became even stronger after that; and all the other Bs the previous movies establish about his massive power in the force

And yes I’m aware that there are other sources outside the movie that try to offer better explanations but that is not different then in the new trilogy things also being underexplained, except the new trilogy could explain them in the last movie while we know that Revenge of the Sith didn’t bother at all


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 16, 2019)

I would wait until the final film to compare this trilogy to that as a whole , not one movie outside of ESB comes close to Knights of the old Republic storyline , I find none of the films even the OG trilogy did much with the lore and had very little in character development they just had an awesome hero in Han Solo and an awesome cool villain in Vader but everything else was meh , just special effects/awesome visuals and soundtrack/score but it’s always been fluff the Expanded Universe tried to clean that up did a great job with Luke’s character , Jedi but Disney scrapped it for this family friendly stuff we have , I didn’t hate TLJ as much as most but I can see where people have a problem with how the story has unfolded the films have been rushed by the studios and with the poor pacing its impossible to jam this whole story into 3 movies and make it work you probably need about 6 or make a 8-9 episode series like GOT/Witcher until they change their formula , get more mature , and slow down on the pacing we will continue to get shitty MCU films with Light Sabers.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I’m sorry but the Prequel trilogy was garbage and much worse then the current trilogy.
> 
> Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones have some of the most boring 1st and 2nd Acts in the history of Adventure / Sci-fi / Fantasy Films; and the writing does nothing to justify, as the time is not spent giving us any interesting depth to the characters or entertaining interactions; instead you largely get cringe worthy plots with Jar Jar and Anakin (Both Young and Teen). I actually don’t blame Lucas for this I blame the studio putting pressure on him to make the films more family friendly and steering him away from the idea of a darker Vader; forcing us to spend time on Child Anakins pod racing and his Teen love drama with Padme. Ether way though the only thing in the new trilogy that comes even close to that level is Casino planet sub plot but it’s equally as bad if not better then this.
> 
> ...



I get your point but I have to say 

Sidious>>>>Snoke 

Death Maul> Kylo


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> I get your point but I have to say
> 
> Sidious>>>>Snoke
> 
> Death Maul> Kylo


 Sidous is in the new Trilogy. So we don’t know where Snoke fits in; he could be more closely related to Maul or Dooku, if he was Sidious apprentice all along 

Darth Maul is defiantly not better then Kylo in the movies; he has no characterization whatsoever


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sidous is in the new Trilogy. So we don’t know where Snoke fits in; he could be more closely related to Maul or Dooku, if he was Sidious apprentice all along
> 
> Darth Maul is defiantly not better then Kylo in the movies; he has no characterization whatsoever



Lmao.


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sidous is in the new Trilogy. So we don’t know where Snoke fits in; he could be more closely related to Maul or Dooku, if he was Sidious apprentice all along
> 
> Darth Maul is defiantly not better then Kylo in the movies; he has no characterization whatsoever



That’s why I said so far with Sidious 

As for Kylo Adam Driver is a fine actor but they have not done a great job developing his character both Maul/Kylo aren’t that interesting as villains but at least Maul looked cool and had an awesome saber Battle something Kylo hasn’t had yet .


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 16, 2019)

No characterization is better than shitty characterization.

Maul had a cool and unique look, Kylo looks like a shitty Reven/Vader cosplayer. Maul had an interesting fight style inspired by real life sword fighting techniques, Kylo just swung his sword like a bat and did a few twirls now and than. Maul took on two skilled Jedi, killed one of them and was only beaten by the other thanks to his arrogance. Kylo only ever killed some old men who stood there and struggled with a janitor and got beaten by a character getting a literal plot powerup ("muh injured side" didn't stop him from clearly winning the fight before Rey just out of nowhere got stronger).

I'll take Maul any day over any villain the ST has to offer.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> That’s why I said so far with Sidious
> 
> As for Kylo Adam Driver is a fine actor but they have not done a great job developing his character both Maul/Kylo aren’t that interesting as villains but at least Maul looked cool and had an awesome saber Battle something Kylo hasn’t had yet .


Yeah but Sidious was barely in Episode 1-2 so I wouldn’t count him as the major villain for those if you aren’t counting him for Episode 7 - 8

Who looks cooler is personal opinion, and I won’t fault you for liking Maul better, but I think Kylo looks cooler with his mask on and cross guard lightsaber better

But what I don’t find open to opinion is whose the Better developed character Maul has no back story emotion or any characteristics; he is just an evil dark jedi with no substance (he gets some in other sources but not in the movie itself)


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> No characterization is better than shitty characterization..


No characterization is shitty characterization...


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah but Sidious was barely in Episode 1-2 so I wouldn’t count him as the major villain for those if you aren’t counting him for Episode 7 - 8



Except he was.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Fang said:


> Except he was.


Cool, not the point


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## Skaddix (Sep 16, 2019)

I mean Maul we had in small doses and at least looked cool was badass and shown to actually be effective at his job.

Kylo has basically been a whiny Incel School Shooter.

Come on you have to bring in palpatine cause with Snoke dead aint no one believe Crylo is ready for prime time as a big bad. Rey will beat his ass again. There is zero tension in there next fight...not accounting for the rumors of BS powers Rey is going to have unlocked in this movie.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Cool, not the point



Except again it was: the movie title "The Phantom Menace" exists because Sidious is there enough to establish he's pulling the strings the entire time through the Trade Federation to corrupt the Republic across the galaxy. I get that conducive reasoning isn't a strong point for anti-Prequel fans but there is still a coherent story and narrative in the Prequels unlike the Sequels.

So you are dead wrong.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> I mean Maul we had in small doses and at least looked cool was badass and shown to actually be effective at his job.
> 
> Kylo has basically been a whiny Incel School Shooter.
> 
> Come on you have to bring in palpatine cause with Snoke dead aint no one believe Crylo is ready for prime time as a big bad. Rey will beat his ass again. There is zero tension in there next fight...not accounting for the rumors of BS powers Rey is going to have unlocked in this movie.


So basically Kylo is a better version of Hayden Anakin, who was the same whiny character but acted far worse and with much more cringe worthy romance sub plot?

And then you have Maul who has equally not characterization and back story as Snoke; actually worse.

Again seems >= Prequels to me

—
I don’t even remotely get the idea that Palpatine wasn’t always the plan from the beginning; he is and always has been the main villain of the Star Wars Skywalker Saga and always was intended to be in the  main villain. They brought him back because he always was the guy


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Fang said:


> Except again it was: the movie title "The Phantom Menace" exists because Sidious is there enough to establish he's pulling the strings the entire time through the Trade Federation to corrupt the Republic across the galaxy. I get that conducive reasoning isn't a strong point for anti-Prequel fans but there is still a coherent story and narrative in the Prequels unlike the Sequels.
> 
> So you are dead wrong.


Cool, again not the point 

Sidous wasn’t actively the villain in those movies he was pulling the strings behind the scenes the same way he is in this trilogy


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Cool, again not the point
> 
> Sidous wasn’t actively the villain in those movies he was pulling the strings behind the scenes the same way he is in this trilogy



Sidious was the main antagonist of the entire Prequel and Original Trilogy, so yes, he was the main villain. And that harps on my original point, there is no "coherent" story in the Sequel Trilogy, which is why Sidious had to be brought back because Snoke was literally worthless as a plot point thanks to Rian with killing him off so abruptly in TLJ.

And its Sidious*.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sidous wasn’t actively the villain in those movies he was pulling the strings behind the scenes the same way he is in this trilogy


Did... did you even watch them?


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Fang said:


> Sidious was the main antagonist of the entire Prequel and Original Trilogy, so yes, he was the main villain. And that harps on my original point, there is no "coherent" story in the Sequel Trilogy, which is why Sidious had to be brought back because Snoke was literally worthless as a plot point thanks to Rian with killing him off so abruptly in TLJ.
> 
> And its Sidious*.


Sidious is the main villain of all the movies lol; and he was always intended for the Sequel trilogy as well; he is the main antagonist of the Skywalkers


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## Skaddix (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So basically Kylo is a better version of Hayden Anakin, who was the same whiny character but acted far worse and with much more cringe worthy romance sub plot?
> 
> And then you have Maul who has equally not characterization and back story as Snoke; actually worse.
> 
> ...



I mean sure but Anakin was introduced as a kid, a teen and a young adult bit different from being whiny at those ages compared to 30. Not to mention at least Anakin had reasons to be whiny and turn evil.  Being a slave and his mother dying fucked him up.

Maul is the not the main bad guy, he is a side boss. With Snoke you got to explain where he came from, how he corrupted Kylo, how he set up the First Order, how he can afford such a massive fleet, a new better deathstar on less resources then the Empire, etc. These aren't equal at all.

Really then why is there not a single hint about Palpatine before Episode IX?


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Did... did you even watch them?


Yes I did watch them; did Sidious come into direct conflict with the heroes in those movies, no he didn’t. He was pulling the string form behind the scenes as he is doing in the current trilogy as well. It wasn’t until the final movie of the Prequels that he comes into direct conflict with the Heroes; this is the same as the OG trilogy and will be the same with the current trilogy


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sidious is the main villain of all the movies lol; and he was always intended for the Sequel trilogy as well; he is the main antagonist of the Skywalkers



You don't have to be in every scene or fighting in a film to be the main antagonist. Maul was pretty much the big bad to face, but Sidious was actively pulling the strings and giving orders to all of the bad guys in Episode 1: who sent Maul to track down the Queen and kill the Jedi? Sidious. Who orchestrated the blockade of Naboo and sent the Trade Federation fleet to enforce it so he could actively remove Valorum from office and become the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic? Sidious did. 

It was the same way in the OT as well. Sidious is name-dropped as dissolving the Senate at the start of ANH, he makes a single but major appereance when Vader communicates to him about finding Skywalker and turning or killing him if he refused to join the Sith, and he was the penultimate big bad behind Vader in ROTJ.  The entire reason why Ian has been brought back to return as being Palpatine/Sidious is because we don't have Snoke, everything about his origins, purpose, history, and connection to Kylo and Luke was completely severed by Rian in TLJ because he didn't care about the overarching story in TFA and TLJ, he wanted to do his own thing which was completely detrimental.

And no, he was never intended to be originally brought back to the Sequels outside of being name-dropped by Luke in TLJ when he was talking to Rey. They are from a writing perspective up shit creek without a paddle; Snoke is gone, Kylo has looked bad TWICE fighting Rey, he's not an obstacle or challenge to her, and Hux is a literal gag character who gets bullied by Snoke and Kylo throughout TFA and TLJ as a foil to make them look better. Now we have even worse like rumors that Rey is somehow Sidious' granddaughter and aping the Dark Empire storyline all over again sans Luke.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> I mean sure but Anakin was introduced as a kid, a teen and a young adult bit different from being whiny at those ages compared to 30. Not to mention at least Anakin had reasons to be whiny and turn evil.  Being a slave and his mother dying fucked him up.
> 
> Maul is the not the main bad guy, he is a side boss. With Snoke you got to explain where he came from, how he corrupted Kylo, how he set up the First Order, how he can afford such a massive fleet, a new better deathstar on less resources then the Empire, etc. These aren't equal at all.
> 
> Really then why is there not a single hint about Palpatine before Episode IX?


Smoke started manipulating Ben at a young age so that is likely why his growth emotionally is stunted. And I think Ben reason to go Dark with Luke his uncle standing over his bed with killing intent and his families history; is more justifiable then Anakins turn in RoS. And even if you disagree that one is slightly more justified then the other; you basically have the same character with Adam Driver acting circles around Hayden. So I don’t see how we can say Anakin was a better depicted character in the prequels

Snoke is also a side boss and I agree his origins should be explained, but if they aren’t it’s only as bad as Maul (or actually still better as Snoke has more characterization then Maul); if they are then it’s better then Maul. Which is my point the prequels are terrible and the sequel trilogy can only be as bad as them or better 

Why does there need to be hints for Sidious to have always been the plan? Basically we always needed an explanation for how the first order came into being, where Snoke came from, etc.. if the explanation in 9 is that it was palpatines plan all along that fits perfectly with the other movies and how Sidous always emerges as the main villain and direct threat to the heroes in the final movie of each Saga while pulling the string in the other films.

I also believe their are hints that Palaptine is connected to Rey back in TFA with her fighting style resembling his


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No characterization is shitty characterization...


In comparison to Kylo whatever characterization we got with Maul was still better than Autismo Ren's sperging.


And  at pretending Palpatine does not count as the overall main villain of the Prequels when he was clearly not only in all 3 but orchestrating the events from the get go while the ST literally pulled him out of their ass after no buildup whatsoever after two whole movies.


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## Skaddix (Sep 16, 2019)

I am saying Anakin having issues makes more sense, he was a slave who had to leave his mother behind, he was fighting a war, his mother got killed, he was worried about his wife and unborn children. Those are for more compelling reasons to fall to the dark side then anything confirmed about Kylo in the movie. Who as far as I can tell is a spoiled rich kid who met an Old Nazi on 8Chan and is mad cause mommy and daddy were working too much. Yes Driver is a far better actor, the motivation though worse on every level.

Well no cause it was clear from the start Maul was a Sub Boss. He had one job hunt down some Jedi for Sidious. Whereas Snoke is responsible for a whole lot of shit that went unexplained. Snoke on the other hand is responsible for destroying all the major successes of Luke, Han and Leia with far less resources then Palpatine that requires some explanation. Maul is responsible for killing a Jedi. Their records are not the same and it was rather clear Maul was working for someone else the whole time.

How in the world does Rey fighting style resemble Palpatines? I don't remember any crazy spins or speed blitzing. There is no real evidence for this being the plan all along. I mean RJ told us he got to do whatever he wanted, that kinda suggest there is no fucking plan. And before someone says Lucas didn't have a plan, it was still a single vision and Lucas didn't know he was going to get a trilogy in advance. Whereas LF and KK sure as fucking hell knew they were doing a trilogy.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 16, 2019)

Fang said:


> You don't have to be in every scene or fighting in a film to be the main antagonist. Maul was pretty much the big bad to face, but Sidious was actively pulling the strings and giving orders to all of the bad guys in Episode 1: who sent Maul to track down the Queen and kill the Jedi? Sidious. Who orchestrated the blockade of Naboo and sent the Trade Federation fleet to enforce it so he could actively remove Valorum from office and become the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic? Sidious did.
> 
> It was the same way in the OT as well. Sidious is name-dropped as dissolving the Senate at the start of ANH, he makes a single but major appereance when Vader communicates to him about finding Skywalker and turning or killing him if he refused to join the Sith, and he was the penultimate big bad behind Vader in ROTJ.  The entire reason why Ian has been brought back to return as being Palpatine/Sidious is because we don't have Snoke, everything about his origins, purpose, history, and connection to Kylo and Luke was completely severed by Rian in TLJ because he didn't care about the overarching story in TFA and TLJ, he wanted to do his own thing which was completely detrimental.
> 
> And no, he was never intended to be originally brought back to the Sequels outside of being name-dropped by Luke in TLJ when he was talking to Rey. They are from a writing perspective up shit creek without a paddle; Snoke is gone, Kylo has looked bad TWICE fighting Rey, he's not an obstacle or challenge to her, and Hux is a literal gag character who gets bullied by Snoke and Kylo throughout TFA and TLJ as a foil to make them look better. Now we have even worse like rumors that Rey is somehow Sidious' granddaughter and aping the Dark Empire storyline all over again sans Luke.


It's fucking hilarious how anyone can delude themselves into thinking Sidious was ever set up to be the main big bad of the ST when there was zero build up for him in anyway. Just goes to show you how desperate they are for this trilogy to not fail to resort to this logic.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Fang said:


> You don't have to be in every scene or fighting in a film to be the main antagonist. Maul was pretty much the big bad to face, but Sidious was actively pulling the strings and giving orders to all of the bad guys in Episode 1: who sent Maul to track down the Queen and kill the Jedi? Sidious. Who orchestrated the blockade of Naboo and sent the Trade Federation fleet to enforce it so he could actively remove Valorum from office and become the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic? Sidious did.
> 
> It was the same way in the OT as well. Sidious is name-dropped as dissolving the Senate at the start of ANH, he makes a single but major appereance when Vader communicates to him about finding Skywalker and turning or killing him if he refused to join the Sith, and he was the penultimate big bad behind Vader in ROTJ.  The entire reason why Ian has been brought back to return as being Palpatine/Sidious is because we don't have Snoke, everything about his origins, purpose, history, and connection to Kylo and Luke was completely severed by Rian in TLJ because he didn't care about the overarching story in TFA and TLJ, he wanted to do his own thing which was completely detrimental.
> 
> And no, he was never intended to be originally brought back to the Sequels outside of being name-dropped by Luke in TLJ when he was talking to Rey. They are from a writing perspective up shit creek without a paddle; Snoke is gone, Kylo has looked bad TWICE fighting Rey, he's not an obstacle or challenge to her, and Hux is a literal gag character who gets bullied by Snoke and Kylo throughout TFA and TLJ as a foil to make them look better. Now we have even worse like rumors that Rey is somehow Sidious' granddaughter and aping the Dark Empire storyline all over again sans Luke.


And it’s the same for this trilogy he was in the background pulling the strings; which we will find out in Episode 9 when he takes an active role

Yes he was always intended; even if you disregard what Kathleen Kennedy directly says the entire Aftermath book series is about how the First Order was born out of a contingency plan of Sidious that also is heavily hinted to involve his resurrection. His ties to Rey were also hinted at in their lightsaber style; and it’s highly likely that it is Sidious in Rey’s head telling her to kill Kylo in the novelizatoon of TFA. Also why the fuck would Snoke some random dude be the final villain to close out the Skywalker Saga, and not Sidious who has always been the main villain for the Skywalker.

Also this whole logic that they had to revive Sidious because Rian killed off Snoke who they originally wanted is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard, because they could have Idk fucking revived Snoke lol


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> In comparison to Kylo whatever characterization we got with Maul was still better than Autismo Ren's sperging.
> 
> 
> And  at pretending Palpatine does not count as the overall main villain of the Prequels when he was clearly not only in all 3 but orchestrating the events from the get go while the ST literally pulled him out of their ass after no buildup whatsoever after two whole movies.


No it’s not because we got none

I said he is the overall main villain; stop attacking a straw man, because you but hurt


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And it’s the same for this trilogy he was in the background pulling the strings; which we will find out in Episode 9 when he takes an active role
> 
> Yes he was always intended; even if you disregard what Kathleen Kennedy directly says the entire Aftermath book series is about how the First Order was born out of a contingency plan of Sidious that also is heavily hinted to involve his resurrection. His ties to Rey were also hinted at in their lightsaber style; and it’s highly likely that it is Sidious in Rey’s head telling her to kill Kylo in the novelizatoon of TFA. Also why the fuck would Snoke some random dude be the final villain to close out the Skywalker Saga, and not Sidious who has always been the main villain for the Skywalker.
> 
> Also this whole logic that they had to revive Sidious because Rian killed off Snoke who they originally wanted is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard, because they could have Idk fucking revived Snoke lol



Its not remotely the same.

He was a dead character whose only mention was in the middle of the second film of the new trilogy and he was never intended to be brought back. The entire "theme" as much as I loosely associate that term with The Last Jedi/Episode VIII was Rian fisting in our faces over and over ad naseum was he didn't give a shit about the past, he didn't want people to focus on Luke, Chewie, Han, Leia, or the concepts and establishment in the lore and overarching story about the Jedi and Sith from the Prequels and Sequels.

At no point until after Snoke is dead are we told post-TLJ that Palpatine has been just chilling in the Unknown Regions not giving a shit about anything and bidding his time. Its a gigantic red herring, just like TLJ and Rian Johnson "subverting" our expectations by making a grossly incoherent story that doesn't fit as the middle piece bridging Episode VII with Episode IX.

No one cares about the novelization either because when Lucas had it and the canon books filled the details, people complained about not being told things in the films and I won't cut Disney that slack ever. So to my original tangent, Sidious/Palpatine being revived and returned is a desperate gamble because there's nothing cementing a big bad that was original to the Sequels (Kylo and Snoke) and it was obviously never intended to have him originally in the story to reprise himself again.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> I am saying Anakin having issues makes more sense, he was a slave who had to leave his mother behind, he was fighting a war, his mother got killed, he was worried about his wife and unborn children. Those are for more compelling reasons to fall to the dark side then anything confirmed about Kylo in the movie. Who as far as I can tell is a spoiled rich kid who met an Old Nazi on 8Chan and is mad cause mommy and daddy were working too much. Yes Driver is a far better actor, the motivation though worse on every level.
> 
> Well no cause it was clear from the start Maul was a Sub Boss. He had one job hunt down some Jedi for Sidious. Whereas Snoke is responsible for a whole lot of shit that went unexplained. Snoke on the other hand is responsible for destroying all the major successes of Luke, Han and Leia with far less resources then Palpatine that requires some explanation. Maul is responsible for killing a Jedi. Their records are not the same and it was rather clear Maul was working for someone else the whole time.
> 
> How in the world does Rey fighting style resemble Palpatines? I don't remember any crazy spins or speed blitzing. There is no real evidence for this being the plan all along. I mean RJ told us he got to do whatever he wanted, that kinda suggest there is no fucking plan. And before someone says Lucas didn't have a plan, it was still a single vision and Lucas didn't know he was going to get a trilogy in advance. Whereas LF and KK sure as fucking hell knew they were doing a trilogy.


I’m sorry but Anakin going to the dark-side has little to do with his upbringing; as he had positive influences from the other Jedi raising him. His issue was Sidious started manipulating him early on while he was able to get close to him in his role as Chancellor. This is the same shit Snoke did to younger Kylo. The only difference here is that Ben made his turn because his master failed him and became in his eyes a threat to his life. While Obi Wan never credibly failed Anakin in the same way. He simply made a turn to the dark because Sidious claimed he had a means to cheat death; and then asking for no proof or training on how to do it he went straight to murdering children and his fellow Jedi. So yeah Ben turn against the Jedi makes more sense 

Snoke being more effective doesn’t make him less of a side boss. If it’s revealed in Episode 9 that Snoke was Sidious apprentice and tasked with manipulating Ben, running the first order, and killing Luke. How is he different from Dooku and Maul who were tasked with key missions but have very little real back story. 

Heres an article from 2016 that explains the comparison:



There is plenty of evidence, the aftermath novels, it fitting with the story, Rey lightsaber style, and so on. Just because the story doesn’t reveal it to you doesn’t mean their isn’t evidence or that it’s made up last minute


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Also the only way to remotely push the idea Sidious was always intended to be brought back is to see the original drafts of what Abrams and Trevor wanted to do with Episode 8 before Rian revised EVERYTHING with the storyboards and scripts and I really doubt they had intended that as well.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Fang said:


> Its not remotely the same.
> 
> He was a dead character whose only mention was in the middle of the second film of the new trilogy and he was never intended to be brought back. The entire "theme" as much as I loosely associate that term with The Last Jedi/Episode VIII was Rian fisting in our faces over and over ad naseum was he didn't give a shit about the past, he didn't want people to focus on Luke, Chewie, Han, Leia, or the concepts and establishment in the lore and overarching story about the Jedi and Sith from the Prequels and Sequels.
> 
> ...


Rian film is slight of hand and it’s setup to subvert expectations of the big twist happening in the second movie when it was intended to happen in the last movie this time. People not understanding this is beyond me. 

You also can’t be like oh I don’t care about the novelization when it speaks towards Disney’s plan that Palpatine was alive the whole time. We have Kathleen Kennedy saying it was their intent and the novels prove that. 

And as I said if the issue was a loss of the originally intended big bad Snoke why didn’t they just have it so Snoke revives himself in Episode 9? It’s a logical fallacy to say they had to asspull the revival of one characters due to the death of another lol


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Fang said:


> Also the only way to remotely push the idea Sidious was always intended to be brought back is to see the original drafts of what Abrams and Trevor wanted to do with Episode 8 before Rian revised EVERYTHING with the storyboards and scripts and I really doubt they had intended that as well.


You mean like the original story board art that shows them going back into the Death Star like they are in episode 9 lol


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No it’s not because we got none


Wrong because he did have some as shown by his attitude in that one scene during the final fight where he is just stalking and looking at Qui-gon like a predator at his pray and his mocking of Obi-wan with his posture to agitate him. Just because they were few and far in between does not change the fact he had them. Which was better than watching emo ren be an annoying little shit.


Turrin said:


> I said he is the overall main villain; stop attacking a straw man, because you but hurt


Wrong,  you were trying to equite his role in the PT with his asspull in ROS which is bullshit. Stop trying to backpedal and pretend otherwise because you are desperate to save face.


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Rian film is slight of hand and it’s setup to subvert expectations



Yes, he made a shockingly terrible film that is completely incompatible with everything that came before and after it and throwing red herrings around with various unrelated sub-plots doesn't help much.  And I have no idea what you mean by a "logical fallacy" in regards to Snoke here. His character had no development and his origins are completely ignored in both TFA and TLJ because JJ wanted him to be fleshed out in the follow up films.

Rian is also on record to admitting he didn't care about what JJ had planned out with the Sequel Trilogy so there's nothing fallacious there, Rian simply did not care.



Turrin said:


> You mean like the original story board art that shows them going back into the Death Star like they are in episode 9 lol



No because that was concept art and designs that were made for Episode VII well before they had writers, Lucas pitched an idea of recycling Jaina Solo and Jacen Solo and JJ originally wanted to have Rey be named "Ray Mixer" or something to allude to other things. It doesn't ever bring up the idea anyways with those concept art of Palpatine being returned and the crux here is about Episode 8 never alluding to Palpatine coming back at all.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Fang said:


> Yes, he made a shockingly terrible film that is completely incompatible with everything that came before and after it and throwing red herrings around with various unrelated sub-plots doesn't help much.  And I have no idea what you mean by a "logical fallacy" in regards to Snoke here. His character had no development and his origins are completely ignored in both TFA and TLJ because JJ wanted him to be fleshed out in the follow up films.
> 
> Rian is also on record to admitting he didn't care about what JJ had planned out with the Sequel Trilogy so there's nothing fallacious there, Rian simply did not care.
> 
> ...


Please don’t even bother quoting me until you answer the logical fallacy of why someone would need to bring another character back to life due to the one they originally wanted being killed? Or to put it more simply why couldn’t they just bring back Snoke instead of Palpatine. Until your can answer that or admit how dumb as helll that statement is I’m going to assume any convo with you is a waste of my time as you are just going to stone wall and be but hurt


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Please don’t even bother quoting me until you answer the logical fallacy of why someone would need to bring another character back to life due to the one they originally wanted being killed? Or to put it more simply why couldn’t they just bring back Snoke instead of Palpatine. Until your can answer that or admit how dumb as helll that statement is I’m going to assume any convo with you is a waste of my time as you are just going to stone wall and be but hurt



That's not how a logical fallacy works. You claimed its a logical fallacy because killing off Snoke was intended to use to bring back Sidious but you are making this claim out of thin air with zero proof or evidence to back it up. There was nothing dumb about my counter-reply to what you are claiming.

You simply aren't making any sense.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Fang said:


> That's not how a logical fallacy works. You claimed its a logical fallacy because killing off Snoke was intended to use to bring back Sidious but you are making this claim out of thin air with zero proof or evidence to back it up. There was nothing dumb about my counter-reply to what you are claiming.
> 
> You simply aren't making any sense.


No you are making the claim that they brought Sidious back because Snoke was killed of in TLJ, which they didn’t plan for; forcing their hand

 But again if they really wanted Snoke, why not just revive Snoke, instead of Sidious through whatever method they are going to revive Sidious with in Episode 9.


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No you are making the claim that they brought Sidious back because Snoke was killed of in TLJ, which they didn’t plan for; forcing their hand



Still not a logical fallacy.



> But again if they really wanted Snoke, why not just revive Snoke, instead of Sidious through whatever method they are going to revive Sidious with in Episode 9.



Again why would they need to do that when we already know straight from Rian's mouth he decided to ditch everything Kennedy and Abrams had planned from TFA to TLJ for his own script? You are the one making this claim, the burden of proof would be on you to indicate it was always planned when the only source we have from Rian Johnson, the head director and writer of TLJ, indicates what he did was out of spontaneity. Occam's Razor is telling us nothing with Sidious was ever planned in TLJ or returning him to the Sequels.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 16, 2019)

Lol at the claim, that Palpatine didn't have a huge role in the first movie.
The title "the Phantom menace" literally refers to him, if the end scene with Yoda didn't make it clear enough.

Also a villain isn't only about physical fighting.
Hell, manipulation was his shtick from his first appearance. Fighting was always secondary to him.
All through out the first movie he is present making moves, minor role my ass.

Snoke was clearly portrayed as a sith lord. He was the one giving orders and making plans.
Maul was an apprentice doing his masters bidding. He is basically shown as an attack dog hunting prey.

Saying they had an equivalent status is hilarious.


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## Turrin (Sep 16, 2019)

Fang said:


> Still not a logical fallacy.
> 
> 
> 
> Again why would they need to do that when we already know straight from Rian's mouth he decided to ditch everything Kennedy and Abrams had planned from TFA to TLJ for his own script? You are the one making this claim, the burden of proof would be on you to indicate it was always planned when the only source we have from Rian Johnson, the head director and writer of TLJ, indicates what he did was out of spontaneity. Occam's Razor is telling us nothing with Sidious was ever planned in TLJ or returning him to the Sequels.


Dude this is not about Rian or anything else other then the sheer stupidity of your claim that the death of one character forced Disney to bring back another character from the “dead”.

I’m not making any claim in relation to that statement other then telling you that it’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard in awhile


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude this is not about Rian or anything else other then the sheer stupidity of your claim that the death of one character forced Disney to bring back another character from the “dead”.
> 
> I’m not making any claim in relation to that statement other then telling you that it’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard in awhile



Why wouldn't it? I don't see how your claim makes any sense. You are arguing that Snoke being killed off had no influence on the executives at Lucas Films to return Palpatine to the story and then added to that by claiming they had always intended for Palpatine to be returned as a character in the Sequel Trilogy. I'm simply not seeing how its dumb to question your argument when there is nothing logical about it and you talking about "logical fallacies" as if saying that remotely means anything.

They need a new antagonist because Kylo has already lost twice to Rey.
Snoke is dead.
We have nothing now relevant with Snoke's character and the final film in the trilogy needs a big bad.
Ergo because of Rian ignoring the story JJ wanted, they had to bring back Palpatine which was never planned.

Calling this dumb to analyze the incoherence in the Sequel Trilogy due to Rian not wanting to be a teamplayer with what JJ and Kennedy wanted isn't going to work.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cichy (Sep 16, 2019)

If I remember it right, there's a comicbook in legends continuity in which Palpatine returns from the dead in a clone body.

If Lucas didn't have issues with milking Palpatine then it's hard to blame Disney for doing the same. Although it comes down to how well they will execute the idea.


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## Cichy (Sep 16, 2019)

I really didn't mind Snoke geting killed. It was a great moment for Kylo and Snoke was boring in the first place.


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## Fang (Sep 16, 2019)

Cichy said:


> If I remember it right, there's a comicbook in legends continuity in which Palpatine returns from the dead in a clone body.
> 
> If Lucas didn't have issues with milking Palpatine then it's hard to blame Disney for doing the same. Although it comes down to how well they will execute the idea.



That was from Dark Empire, a comic/graphic novel series that's almost 30 years old at this point. No one has an issue with Clone Palpatine being revived in the new canon in some form or another, its just that there was ZERO set up to this because of how disjointed the entire narrative with the Sequel Trilogy's story telling has been.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 16, 2019)

Cichy said:


> If I remember it right, there's a comicbook in legends continuity in which Palpatine returns from the dead in a clone body.
> 
> If Lucas didn't have issues with milking Palpatine then it's hard to blame Disney for doing the same. Although it comes down to how well they will execute the idea.



Milking Palpy isn't necessarily bad.
The prequels already setup enough with the whole learning how to cheat death speech.
With some quick reference to a back up plan for revival you could hand wave any issue.
He did have the resources of an entire galactic empire to set it up, after all.

Problem is the first two movies had no hints to the possibility.
So even if they show a script with this twist in it years ago, it would still come off as a diabolus ex machina.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 16, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Milking Palpy isn't necessarily bad.
> The prequels already setup enough with the whole learning how to cheat death speech.
> With some quick reference to a back up plan for revival you could hand wave any issue.
> He did have the resources of an entire galactic empire to set it up, after all.
> ...


Not to mention the biggest issue is just bringing him back after the death of all the main heroes from the OT. At least in Dark Empire Luke and Leia were finishing up their father's job because they were stronger than they were in ROTJ so it did not make his death completely pointless since him killing the Emperor there saved his son and gave him time to get stronger and force Sidious to be in clone bodies that were never last long. Here now that Luke, Han, and Leia(one of Disney's biggest fuck ups making her live longer not knowing the health of her actress) are gone Palpatine coming back just makes everything they have done absolutely worthless.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 16, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Not to mention the biggest issue is just bringing him back after the death of all the main heroes from the OT. At least in Dark Empire Luke and Leia were finishing up their father's job because they were stronger than they were in ROTJ so it did not make his death completely pointless since him killing the Emperor there saved his son and gave him time to get stronger and force Sidious to be in clone bodies that were never last long. Here now that Luke, Han, and Leia(one of Disney's biggest fuck ups making her live longer not knowing the health of her actress) are gone Palpatine coming back just makes everything they have done absolutely worthless.



Yeah.
Though after setting their lives to be full of misery post ROTJ and killing them off, shitting on their past achievements seems to be the next step.

It's getting hard to not assume the people in charge despise the OT trio at this point.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 16, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Yeah.
> Though after setting their lives to be full of misery post ROTJ and killing them off, shitting on their past achievements seems to be the next step.
> 
> It's getting hard to not assume the people in charge despise the OT trio at this point.



I think if anything, it's more that Hollywood seems to have a "out with the old, in with the new". This might be because most soft reboots that rely a lot on nostalgia either fail or underperform at the box office.

Although to be fair, Luke becoming a miserable recluse was a rumor long before "The Last Jedi" entered production. When it was revealed that Disney had purchased Lucasfilms and they were reviving Star Wars, I remember the imdb trivia said that there had been a rumor that Luke would be a recluse, afraid of his own power (or something like that).


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 17, 2019)

Cichy said:


> If Lucas didn't have issues with milking Palpatine then it's hard to blame Disney for doing the same.



Lucas considered the EU to be a "parallel universe" to his films, and the old canon was structured so that films and TV shows were considered above everything else. It would have been the EU writers who brought Palpatine back. Lucas' involvement there, as far as I'm aware, is to make sure certain things are consistent and that too big of tangents aren't taken.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2019)

I know Catalyst can't see my posts since he ignores everyone who proves his arguments wrong but that's not how the structure or continuity with the old canon worked at all. I have said it many times before but he has no idea of what he's talking about when it came to how the canon tree operated before Disney rebooted everything in 2014.

Lucas hired Leland Chee to explicitly KEEP and manage the flow of continuity and canon as that was his job and not Lucas.




MartialHorror said:


> I think if anything, it's more that Hollywood seems to have a "out with the old, in with the new". This might be because most soft reboots that rely a lot on nostalgia either fail or underperform at the box office.
> 
> Although to be fair, Luke becoming a miserable recluse was a rumor long before "The Last Jedi" entered production. When it was revealed that Disney had purchased Lucasfilms and they were reviving Star Wars, I remember the imdb trivia said that there had been a rumor that Luke would be a recluse, afraid of his own power (or something like that).



Hollywood is creatively bankrupt as a whole and is pumping out more sequels, remakes, and reboots then actual fresh content in the last 10 years of films. I have no idea where this rumor came from but most people were expecting when the Sequels were announced and from JJ's earliest interviews about TFA for Luke that Luke would be busting out crazy powers and whooping ass after returning to the fold late in Episode VII.


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## Kansas City Kipchaks Point Guard (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude this is not about Rian or anything else other then the sheer stupidity of your claim that the death of one character forced Disney to bring back another character from the “dead”.
> 
> I’m not making any claim in relation to that statement other then telling you that it’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard in awhile


That is a reasonable line of speculation.


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

Fang said:


> Why wouldn't it? I don't see how your claim makes any sense. You are arguing that Snoke being killed off had no influence on the executives at Lucas Films to return Palpatine to the story and then added to that by claiming they had always intended for Palpatine to be returned as a character in the Sequel Trilogy. I'm simply not seeing how its dumb to question your argument when there is nothing logical about it and you talking about "logical fallacies" as if saying that remotely means anything.
> 
> They need a new antagonist because Kylo has already lost twice to Rey.
> Snoke is dead.
> ...



So in your mind it went down like this 


Disney, “ Our big bad for the Sequel Trilogy is this Random new Guy Snoke”

Rian, “Fuck your guys I’m killing him off for the lolz”

Disney, “Even though we’ve stopped the production and forced rewrites in dozens of other cases, we can’t stop Rian from killing our Mian
Villain he’s too powerful!”


Disney, “Shit he really did kill Snoke off there is no way we can bring him back to life”

“But wait I have a brilliant idea of how to get us out of this mess, let’s bring another dead Character back to life”

——

Again you fail to answer the question why they couldn’t have just brought Snoke back to life in Episode 9, if they wanted him back


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So in your mind it went down like this
> 
> 
> Disney, “ Our big bad for the Sequel Trilogy is this Random new Guy Snoke”
> ...



Because at that point Snoke's ability to serve as a menacing villain was already destroyed.
The public already perceives him as a complete joke.
Doing a "it was all a trick" stunt would just further destroy the infinitesimal chance they have to turn public opinion around.


Using an old fan favorite to win over losing interest is a trope in itself, bro.
Don't act as the idea is outlandishly outrages.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Because at that point Snoke's ability to serve as a menacing villain was already destroyed.
> The public already perceives him as a complete joke.
> Doing a "it was all a trick" stunt would just further destroy the infinitesimal chance they have to turn public opinion around.
> 
> ...


Lol what sense does that make

Snoke looses his menace as a villain because he was “killed” by his apprentice; but Sidious doesn’t when he was “killed” by his apprentice 

It’s literally the same situation 


Using an old fan favorite to win back the fans; is a different argument then being forced to use Sidious because Rian killed Snoke, which is nonsense as they could have just brought back Snoke


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 17, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Because at that point Snoke's ability to serve as a menacing villain was already destroyed.
> The public already perceives him as a complete joke.
> Doing a "it was all a trick" stunt would just further destroy the infinitesimal chance they have to turn public opinion around.
> 
> ...


Turrin is just being dense on purpose because he is in denial over the fact there was never any foreshadowing whatsoever up to this point, he's been an apologist for the Sequels from the get go.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So in your mind it went down like this
> 
> 
> Disney, “ Our big bad for the Sequel Trilogy is this Random new Guy Snoke”
> ...



I don't know what you are talking about "failing" to answer anything since I've directly addressed everything you've said repeatedly and directly. Rian Johnson is on record repeatedly saying he didn't care about the establishment of the script and story that JJ wanted to use from the get-go from Episode VII to Episode VIII. If you think the intent from Abrams and Kennedy was to have Snoke/Serkiss character killed off mid-way into the middle film with no preamble or build up, then that's your problem.

Even now, Episode IX is STILL going through multiple reshoots and is out in less than 3 months from now. If you can't comprehend or understand why the Sequels are incoherent and VIII is incompatible with everything that was set up with the plot and characters in VII, then that's on you. Besides, Rian had complete control over everything with TLJ; the story, the writing, and the direction. He wanted to do what he did to "subvert expectations and he succeeded.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Lol what sense does that make
> 
> Snoke looses his menace as a villain because he was “killed” by his apprentice; but Sidious doesn’t when he was “killed” by his apprentice
> 
> ...



Okay, to be fair -- and I say this as someone who enjoyed the new movies and actually think killing Snoke off was an interesting choice, there is a big difference between Vader and Ren, even within the context of their stories.

Darth Vader was presented as an incredible bad-ass from the beginning and is a much more iconic character than Palpatine. Kylo Ren was also presented as a bad-ass, but it seems like at best, it's because he was never really challenged prior to Rey. The prequels also made a point of emphasizing that Vader would surpass Palpatine... which kind of makes Palpatine's decision to keep Vader alive kind of stupid considering the "rule of two". 

Kylo Ren's entire character arc has been built around how he's no Vader, so being taken out by him would've been much more pathetic. Even the way the scene is framed is somewhat comically, whereas Vader killing Palpatine was treated as the climax of the entire movie. 

Like I said, I enjoyed Snoke's death, but I disagree that it's the same situation.


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Okay, to be fair -- and I say this as someone who enjoyed the new movies and actually think killing Snoke off was an interesting choice, there is a big difference between Vader and Ren, even within the context of their stories.
> 
> Darth Vader was presented as an incredible bad-ass from the beginning and is a much more iconic character than Palpatine. Kylo Ren was also presented as a bad-ass, but it seems like at best, it's because he was never really challenged prior to Rey. The prequels also made a point of emphasizing that Vader would surpass Palpatine... which kind of makes Palpatine's decision to keep Vader alive kind of stupid considering the "rule of two".
> 
> ...


Kylo took Snoke out in a highly intelligent manner, where he used Snoke confidence in his force sensing abilities against him as well as utilizing and unexpected force trick (turning the lightsaber on remotely) that we and likely Snoke had never seen before.

Vader took out Palpatine not due to some amazing feat of the force ability as the chosen one or some intelligent strategy, but simply by picking his ass up and throwing him into the core of the Death Star.

Palpatine “death” was much less earned then Snokes was. Though ultimately the flaw of Snoke and Palpatine was overestimating the hold they had on Skywalkers, so in that case their defeats were due to the same fundamental flaw in their strategy.

—-

With that said I wouldn’t disagree with anyone who says Palaptine name holds more hype then Snokes; and the idea that Palapatine is the Big Bad for Episode 9 rather then Snoke is much more iconic. But that’s because Palpatine has been the major villain of the past 2 Skywalker Sagas; so it fits that he’s the main villain to close out that Star Wars story (which is incidentally why I thought he always was the planned FV rather then Snoke)

That’s not what I take issue with; what I take issue with is the sheer stupidity of saying that somehow Rian managed to defy Disney plan to originally have Snoke as FV and kill of Snoke without them being able to tell him no and because Snoke was dead they had to bring back Palapatine. That idea fundamentally makes no sense because If they were willing to bring backbone Palpatine from the dead they could have easily brought back Snoke. In-fact many people speculated that Snoke would be revived in EP9.

There is this nonsense narrative that Rian somehow could completely defy Disney and derail their entire story, which is laughable and as I showed above doesn’t even stand up to common sense (as they would have brought back Snoke if that’s who they wanted) rather it’s more like Disney let Rian do whatever he wanted with the Snoke character because he wasn’t important to the end game they had planned because it always was Palpatine


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

Fang said:


> I don't know what you are talking about "failing" to answer anything since I've directly addressed everything you've said repeatedly and directly. Rian Johnson is on record repeatedly saying he didn't care about the establishment of the script and story that JJ wanted to use from the get-go from Episode VII to Episode VIII. If you think the intent from Abrams and Kennedy was to have Snoke/Serkiss character killed off mid-way into the middle film with no preamble or build up, then that's your problem.
> 
> Even now, Episode IX is STILL going through multiple reshoots and is out in less than 3 months from now. If you can't comprehend or understand why the Sequels are incoherent and VIII is incompatible with everything that was set up with the plot and characters in VII, then that's on you. Besides, Rian had complete control over everything with TLJ; the story, the writing, and the direction. He wanted to do what he did to "subvert expectations and he succeeded.


You have not answered anything and are just stone walking the same bullshit about Rian

Now answer the question why didn’t they just have Snoke revive himself in Episode 9 rather then Palpatine if they wanted Snoke as FV


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 17, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Turrin is just being dense on purpose because he is in denial over the fact there was never any foreshadowing whatsoever up to this point, he's been an apologist for the Sequels from the get go.



Yeah, saying Vader and Kylo Ren are the same is pretty severe denial.
Vader at that point was an only an apprentice in formality, because he didn't complete the final exam of killing his master.
Kylo was still being taught basic shit to become a proper dark side user.
The whole daddy issues keeping him in the dark side noob level.

He struggled with a janitor and the equivalent of an overgrown jedi youngling for crying out loud.




MartialHorror said:


> Darth Vader was presented as an incredible bad-ass from the beginning and is a much more iconic character than Palpatine. Kylo Ren was also presented as a bad-ass, but it seems like at best, it's because he was never really challenged prior to Rey. The prequels also made a point of emphasizing that Vader would surpass Palpatine... which kind of makes Palpatine's decision to keep Vader alive kind of stupid considering the "rule of two"..



Arrogance was his downfall.
Though given how little of Anakin's true body remained, he probably thought Anakin wouldn't be able to realize enough of his innate potential to threaten him in the end.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You have not answered anything and are just stone walking the same bullshit about Rian
> 
> Now answer the question why didn’t they just have Snoke revive himself in Episode 9 rather then Palpatine if they wanted Snoke as FV



Why do I have to answer something like that to prove YOUR claim? That burden is on you.


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

Fang said:


> Why do I have to answer something like that to prove YOUR claim? That burden is on you.


Your the one who made the claim


Fang said:


> Sidious had to be brought back because Snoke was literally worthless as a plot point thanks to Rian with killing him off so abruptly in TLJ.QUOTE]



So again why couldn’t they revive Snoke instead of Palpatine?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So again why couldn’t they revive Snoke instead of Palpatine?



Lets say your eating a bland meal. The host wants to serve it with mayo to fix the dish.
But his idiot co-cook drops the last bottle on the floor.
He scrambles and decides to give you ketchup as a condiment.

Now the mayo is still edible.
But as a chef he knows not to scoop it off the floor and serve it to you, just because he originally wanted to give you mayo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Lets say your eating a bland meal. The host wants to serve it with mayo to fix the dish.
> But his idiot co-cook drops the last bottle on the floor.
> He scrambles and decides to give you ketchup as a condiment.
> 
> ...


That’s not an answer; that’s a subjective opinion that the Snoke character was A) Derailed by Rian and B) Couldn’t be fixed

Ether way though that doesn’t mean anyone “HAD” to revive Palapatine because Snoke was “Killed”. Which is idiotic because if they could revive Palaptine they obviously could revive Snoke.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kylo took Snoke out in a highly intelligent manner, where he used Snoke confidence in his force sensing abilities against him as well as utilizing and unexpected force trick (turning the lightsaber on remotely) that we and likely Snoke had never seen before.
> 
> Vader took out Palpatine not due to some amazing feat of the force ability as the chosen one or some intelligent strategy, but simply by picking his ass up and throwing him into the core of the Death Star.
> 
> ...



That's not what everyone took away from it though. Also, didn't Palpatine technically kill Vader in the process through his force lightening? 

You can try and detail it however you want, but it all comes down to framing. Palpatine's death was framed like it was the climax of the entire trilogy and it wasn't without cost itself, as Vader does not survive.

Snoke's death was framed to be shocking and somewhat humorous, as proof that despite seemingly being the Emperor of this new trilogy, he was a wannabe big bad. A red herring.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 17, 2019)

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the plan was always to revive Palpatine for episode 9.

Let's say that Rian Johnson decided to kill Snoke and in J.J's original plan, Snoke would've survived until Episode 9 as well.

Can we all agree that Snoke probably would've been used to put over Palpatine in such way? He would've either been a puppet, who'd be used to bring Palps back to life and would likely be discarded. Or he would've been Palpatine all along. The only way I could see the opposite happening is if Palpatine only had a cameo as a force ghost of some sort, who maybe would give Snoke advice or something.

Even though everyone feels like the OT characters are being killed off for the sake of the NT characters, it's not like they were used specifically to put them over. Kylo Ren might've killed Han, but only because Han more or less let it happen. He did not kill Luke, who died on his own terms. Poe's revolt failed because of Leia... and people tended to be a lot more favorable to Ren as a character than Snoke, who everyone felt was just an Emperor stand-in.


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> That's not what everyone took away from it though. Also, didn't Palpatine technically kill Vader in the process through his force lightening?
> 
> You can try and detail it however you want, but it all comes down to framing. Palpatine's death was framed like it was the climax of the entire trilogy and it wasn't without cost itself, as Vader does not survive.
> 
> Snoke's death was framed to be shocking and somewhat humorous, as proof that despite seemingly being the Emperor of this new trilogy, he was a wannabe big bad. A red herring.


Palpatine killing Vader does not make ‘his’ loss any more credible. He lost to someone throwing him into the reactor. It wasn’t a force feat or an intelligent plan, and no alternative interpretation will change that while Snoke lost to an intelligent plan on Kylo part. There is no way you can argue Palaptine defeat is more justifiable then Snokes.

Palpatine death was not that impactful to me in the original trilogy to be honest, because he really didnt do anything. The only impact it had was to show that Vader had changed; and in that sense Snokes death has the impact to show Kylo change from being Snokes bitch to becoming his own man with his own goals. Palpatine death becomes more impactful with the Sequel Trilogy and other materials that come out, but it’s still a really lame way for him to go out; and honestly I’ve always thought Return of the Jedi was a pretty weak conclusion / movie in general; and people that don’t understand where the shitty writing from the Prequels came from should look at some of the stuff from Return of the Jedi a little harder.

I agree Snoke was the red herring; it’s the same shit they did with Maul in Phantom menace


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> For the sake of argument, let's assume that the plan was always to revive Palpatine for episode 9.
> 
> Let's say that Rian Johnson decided to kill Snoke and in J.J's original plan, Snoke would've survived until Episode 9 as well.
> 
> ...


I don’t think JJ had any plans for Snoke; that’s why Rian was allowed to do whatever he wanted with him; and it will be probably revealed in EP9 that Snoke was connected to Palpatine the whole time or manipulated by him.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Your the one who made the claim genius



I made a statement in reply to you CLAIMING it was always their intent to bring back Sidious. Is your reading comprehension this bad?



> So again why couldn’t they revive Snoke instead of Palpatine?



Why are you lying?



Turrin said:


> _*Sidious is the main villain of all the movies lol; and he was always intended for the Sequel trilogy as well*_; he is the main antagonist of the Skywalkers



Here's you literally claiming by inference that he was always intended to be brought in to replace Snoke as the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy with zero proof, evidence, or anything else to back this claim up.



Turrin said:


> Sidous is in the new Trilogy._* So we don’t know where Snoke fits in; he could be more closely related to Maul or Dooku, if he was Sidious apprentice all along *_



You claiming Snoke's role was equivalent to Maul's with Sidious in the Prequel Trilogy. Which again is fallacious as the only connection established between Snoke and Sidious is that Snoke feared Palpatine and Vader and hid in the Unknown Regions until they died in the novelization of TFA and TLJ. Which again, is never SAID in the movies. You have to be told this in the books.

So there goes your theory of Snoke having any relationship with Sidious.



Turrin said:


> Yeah but Sidious was barely in Episode 1-2 so I wouldn’t count him as the major villain for those if you aren’t counting him for Episode 7 - 8



You again claiming Sidious wasn't the main antagonist in Episodes I and II on top of that. Dude, you are literally all over the place with claims with zero proof here.


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

Fang said:


> I made a statement .


Yes which is a claim, so stop evading the questions and answer it; I can careless about all the other stuff until you answer the question or admit how fucking stupid that claim was; K


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes which is a claim, so stop evading the questions and answer it; I can careless about all the other stuff until you answer the question or admit how fucking stupid that claim was; K



Well you are gonna have to care since you were shoving claims out of the thin air for MULTIPLE THINGS here at me claiming literally it was all planned out, so I'll sit here and wait till you fess up that you were making that stuff up.

So on my side:

- I have Rian Johnson's repeated statements he didn't care about the long term plans for Snoke, Kylo, the Knights of Ren and the overarching story in the Sequel Trilogy

And on your side:

- You have nothing

Not gonna work that way, my boy.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Palpatine killing Vader does not make ‘his’ loss any more credible. He lost to someone throwing him into the reactor. It wasn’t a force feat or an intelligent plan, and no alternative interpretation will change that while Snoke lost to an intelligent plan on Kylo part. There is no way you can argue Palaptine defeat is more justifiable then Snokes.
> 
> Palpatine death was not that impactful to me in the original trilogy to be honest, because he really didnt do anything. The only impact it had was to show that Vader had changed; and in that sense Snokes death has the impact to show Kylo change from being Snokes bitch to becoming his own man with his own goals. Palpatine death becomes more impactful with the Sequel Trilogy and other materials that come out, but it’s still a really lame way for him to go out; and honestly I’ve always thought Return of the Jedi was a pretty weak conclusion / movie in general; and people that don’t understand where the shitty writing from the Prequels came from should look at some of the stuff from Return of the Jedi a little harder.
> 
> I agree Snoke was the red herring; it’s the same shit they did with Maul in Phantom menace



Eh, if you feel that way, then you feel that way. 

The one thing I will say though is that Palpatine wasn't much of a character in ROTJ. He ultimately existed to redeem Vader and it was the EU and the prequels that really made him into anything more than the final obstacle for the trilogy. Where I disagree with you though is that Vader's redemption was what the movie was building up to, so it still served as an emotional climax.

Whatever brownie points Kylo Ren scored for killing Snoke, he lost when he subsequently was humiliated by Snoke, Luke and... well, everyone. Even Hux looked embarrassed for him. So Snoke's death arguably did little in the grand scheme of things... other than give the haters a very valid point that episode 9 lacks a real villain. 

Of course, we should all probably see Episode 9 before coming to our final decision. For all we know, Palpatine's return is a red herring and the final villain will ultimately end up being... Jar Jar Binks...


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 17, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> “Accusing others in a savage manner” is quite the exaggeration because I've been replying to pretty much everyone here that was dissatisfied with the events of the weekend, yourself included and your uncalled for insults all in order to find a semblance of common ground. There isn’t anymore of that now and once again, I'll be stricter with those forward.]



I don't believe you know what the term passive aggressive is intended to describe. I'm being overtly contentious, there's no ambiguity.

"I'll be stricter going forward" I'll just assume that was a threat and move on.



Sennin of Hardwork said:


> The only thing I am interested here is that no one here takes things too & says something that can’t be taken back over a piece of fiction. I have no gain in silencing you or anyone else in favor of something that is bigger than me and all of us. Still, I apologize for giving you the wrong impression in how I have been doing things.]



Then again I reiterate, silencing news about Disney's criminal misconduct...only serves to defend one side...A side that as Fang noted, routinely flames us.



[





Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Reshoots and shooting multiple endings is not per se a secret or something that is wrong because many do that nowadays in order to avoid leaks



Except that Disney has admitted its ordered Lucasfilm to do this to appease "multiple types of fans" and has gone on record saying it was for damage control.



Turrin said:


> I’m sorry but the Prequel trilogy was garbage and much worse then the current trilogy.



While the prequel trilogy is bad, claiming that this shoddily written, hastily cobbled together, dishonest, overtly political and resentful clusterfuck is superior to the Prequel trilogy is an absurdity.




Turrin said:


> Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones have some of the most boring 1st and 2nd Acts in the history of Adventure / Sci-fi / Fantasy Films; and the writing does nothing to justify, as the time is not spent giving us any interesting depth to the characters or entertaining interactions; instead you largely get cringe worthy plots with Jar Jar and Anakin (Both Young and Teen).



Yes because pod racing and a Tomy Clancer style investigation into renegade Jedi Knights is..oh so inferior to stopping a film in the middle of a high speed chase across space, where the odds are dire, people are dying and the Admiral's incompetence begins to create tension that causes a mutiny to foment...to..focus on a Casino so Rian Johnson can bitch and moan about the evils of weapons manufacturers and animal cruelty.

Please...TLJ literally stopped in the middle of itself to degenerate into an incoherent, amateur hour blog about alleged social issues. The Canto Byte scene disrupted the movie to the point where people in the audience left by the end of it 

Theatres were pretty empty too..And then whistleblowers are saying those ticket purchases were made by agents of the Mouse.



Turrin said:


> I’
> 
> I actually don’t blame Lucas for this I blame the studio putting pressure on him to make the films more family friendly and steering him away from the idea of a darker Vader; forcing us to spend time on Child Anakins pod racing and his Teen love drama with Padme. Ether way though the only thing in the new trilogy that comes even close to that level is Casino planet sub plot but it’s equally as bad if not better then this.



The irony being that Lucas had free reign...and..really...You're gonna compare a movie killing tantrum to...a hunt for Red October type plot on Kamino.



Turrin said:


> I’The ending of both had some entertaining lightsaber battles, but that’s it; everything else action wise in both movies was garbage. This is why enter Revenge of the Sith; and the only thing action wise they focus on was Lightsaber duels.




Lightsaber battles that were superior to anything choreographed in the New trilogy 



Turrin said:


> Darth Maul is defiantly not better then Kylo in the movies; he has no characterization whatsoever




Darth Maul was a cold, relentless butcher who brutalized an out of shape, middle aged Jedi who perhaps, had the most devotion to the force and to his student of any Jedi we've ever seen and then murdered him in front of said student. He then proceeded to taunt and mock the apprentice, tormenting the fucker after a battle that covered multistory jumps and falls and showcased what Jedi could truly do when not hobbled by old age and a life support system.

Kylo Ren is a weak, whiny, entitled, easily manipulated, hyper violent coward. He's a thug with a lightsaber and he works perfectly as some sniveling subordinate to a true enforcer for the main villain. As the number two guys, number two but little else.

He's not even well written as a cowardly, pathetic villain as we're clearly meant to see him as this great, incomprehensible threat. When he's nothing more than a withered mental invalid.

The audience knows this, sees this and rejects this resoundingly.



Turrin said:


> Yeah but Sidious was barely in Episode 1-2 so I wouldn’t count him as the major villain for those if you aren’t counting him for Episode 7 - 8



By this...astounding logic Sauron is not the main villain of The Lords of The rings due to his lack of presence 

You're better off sticking to Shounen if your grasp of what constitutes an antagonist is so constrictive.



Turrin said:


> I also believe their are hints that Palaptine is connected to Rey back in TFA with her fighting style resembling his



...wa...wat? 

How the fuck..can you possibly come to this conclusion?



Turrin said:


> Please don’t even bother quoting me until you answer the logical fallacy of why someone would need to bring another character back to life due to the one they originally wanted being killed? Or to put it more simply why couldn’t they just bring back Snoke instead of Palpatine. Until your can answer that or admit how dumb as helll that statement is I’m going to assume any convo with you is a waste of my time as you are just going to stone wall and be but hurt



....wut...



Turrin said:


> Dude this is not about Rian or anything else other then the sheer stupidity of your claim *that the death of one character forced Disney to bring back another character from the “dead”*.
> 
> I’m not making any claim in relation to that statement other then telling you that it’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard in awhile



...That's literally what happened though.


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

Fang said:


> Well you are gonna have to care since you were shoving claims out of the thin air for MULTIPLE THINGS here at me claiming literally it was all planned out, so I'll sit here and wait till you fess up that you were making that stuff up.
> 
> So on my side:
> 
> ...


Until you answer the question I won’t bother to respond anymore


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## Turrin (Sep 17, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Eh, if you feel that way, then you feel that way.
> 
> The one thing I will say though is that Palpatine wasn't much of a character in ROTJ. He ultimately existed to redeem Vader and it was the EU and the prequels that really made him into anything more than the final obstacle for the trilogy. Where I disagree with you though is that Vader's redemption was what the movie was building up to, so it still served as an emotional climax.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that Vader redemption was more impactful 100%. However that wasn’t what we were discussing originally, we were talking about how justified their defeat was in terms of their threat as villains. Palpating defeat is nonsensical stupid; and Snokes makes sense is my point.

The rest I don’t disagree with you on Vader is a way better villain / character then Kylo is at this point and likely ever will be


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Until you answer the question I won’t bother to respond anymore



It doesn't work that way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 17, 2019)

Fang said:


> It doesn't work that way.


Its ironic he talks about you not answering his question considering he has yet to answer mine when I called him out on Maul having characterization and the sidious asspull.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Sep 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes I did watch them; did Sidious come into direct conflict with the heroes in those movies, no he didn’t. He was pulling the string form behind the scenes as he is doing in the current trilogy as well. It wasn’t until the final movie of the Prequels that he comes into direct conflict with the Heroes; this is the same as the OG trilogy and will be the same with the current trilogy


Just because someone doesn't fight them directly doesn't make them not the big bad.

Reactions: Like 4


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## MartialHorror (Sep 18, 2019)

I was listening to Rey's theme from "The Force Awakens" and it's actually really good, so why don't I remember it ever really popping out in the actual movie?


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## reiatsuflow (Sep 18, 2019)

Huh, rey's theme sounds like something out of harry potter.


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## Fang (Sep 18, 2019)

I'll be honest out of the current 4 Disney SW movies the only single original track that stirs me in any way is Krennic's Suite from Rouge One.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 19, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Huh, rey's theme sounds like something out of harry potter.



Yeah it kind of does.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2019)

That would be why it sucks


John Williams pretty clearly didnt give a darn when he wrote that track.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 19, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> That would be why it sucks
> 
> 
> John Williams pretty clearly didnt give a darn when he wrote that track.


I didn't think it was bad but the fact the only new memorable track so far in the ST is an okay at best tune for one of the worst characters in Star Wars history is a painful fact of how subpar the ST's soundtrack has been.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I didn't think it was bad but the fact the only new memorable track so far in the ST is an okay at best tune for one of the worst characters in Star Wars history is a painful fact of how subpar the ST's soundtrack has been.



While catchy and probably one of the more defining tracks for the sequel trilogy. Im just noting how  incredibly lazy it was.

Shame James Horner died, his music can often carry a horrible movie. Jerry Goldsmiths too

Williams is brilliant but he can't save trainwrecks like they could.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 19, 2019)

I actually forgot John Williams scored the first Harry Potter. 

I don't know if it's fair to say he didn't give any fucks. He's 87 years old and doesn't compose that much anymore. You're not likely going to compose any masterpieces at that age... and his score for the OT set incredibly high standards.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 19, 2019)

The music sucks in the ST because there is no coordination between John and the directors, who just treat the soundtrack like most modern directors do and leave it as background noise without any real importance to the story. 

The one thing Lucas never did worse with was the music since he made sure to talk and discuss anything he could with Williams about how certain tracks should go with certain scenes and made the music itself apart of the story like a space opera should be which is why the PT is so remembered for its music in a good way even by it's detractors.


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## Runner (Sep 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> The music sucks in the ST because there is no coordination between John and the directors, who just treat the soundtrack like most modern directors do and leave it as background noise without any real importance to the story.
> 
> The one thing Lucas never did worse with was the music since he made sure to talk and discuss anything he could with Williams about how certain tracks should go with certain scenes and made the music itself apart of the story like a space opera should be which is why the PT is so remembered for its music in a good way even by it's detractors.


The sequel trilogy had music?


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 19, 2019)

Runner said:


> The sequel trilogy had music?


I think it did but the only tracks I remember were the ones already used in the OT.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> The music sucks in the ST because there is no coordination between John and the directors, who just treat the soundtrack like most modern directors do and leave it as background noise without any real importance to the story..



And this is what modern directors don't grasp. A Movie's soundtrack is not just background noise, it's very much a part of the story telling, to the point where a movie can sink or swim due to little things like the right kind of music and the right kind of lighting. Soundtracks don't just fill in space between action scenes fucks sake...They are a part of the film itself and advance the story.

Compare


And



To this fucking...seizurific garbage


What the fuck even is that? The music is the music one would put in an action sequence devoid of the kind of intense emotional turmoil the autistic Dark Jedi is supposed to be feeling in that situation. It's a soundtrack better suited to a fucking Indiana Jones brawl or Han and Lando escaping some shenanigans not a mentally handicapped mass murderer agonizing over the possibility that he just butchered his mother.


Meanwhile in the first one, the lighting, the silence from Arnold, the gloom of the cave and the long dead King of giants, sitting mummified over the ruins of what was once his glory, merge with the outright fucking magic Basil Poulidoris weaves into the movie creating a scene that's alive, filled with the sheer weight and faded majesty, the significant and potency of Conan a future King , claiming the blade of a former monarch who, recognizing the greatness in the silent youth finally bows his head after eons uncounted 

_There's power in that scene
_
And it comes both from the acting skill of Arnold and the mastery of the timing of that music. That music, which isn't ostentatious or bombastic..it doesn't have of that modern dubstep bwwaaaammm shit most modern composers wanna put in..Just..slow..steady, build up to something subtly grand.

That scene right there..is beyond anything Rian Johnson or J.J Abrams could ever conceive of, much less execute. It puts the entire franchise to shame..And that hinges almost entirely on the music.

Williams with a great director..likewise creates magic. The slow, ominous chanting as Palpatine viciously, and cruelly tortures Luke, the melody changes when Luke begs his father and that final..charge of sound when when Vader at last remembers who he was and Anakin Skywalker comes crashing through to save his boy 

Or hell let's compare..the tacky use of Williams score by johnson when Kylo shatters his helmet vs another one of Poulidorus's best


The fuck is that trumpeting shit for? Why would Rian Johnson want to convey majesty, power and menace...in what amounts to a flailing child? It should have been in a reverse order...with Hux getting that track when he manages to corner the Resistance fleet...its frenetic, its loud and it's ominous.

Kylo is a stunted...addled, broken creature..he's pathetic and his music needs to reflect the natural disgust the audience feels whenever he lopes his way into a scene.

Now...Basil and a competent director together...again watch what they do

There's silence, as the camera pans out across a frozen inlet, its dreary, its damp, its dark. Then the Russian chorus begins, its heavy, its baleful, it's sorrowful and brimming with the weight, the grimness of what those two Russian officers are planning and then it picks up and fills the scene..it possess the same resolve, the shame shadow of hope the characters do.

That's how you use music..The conan one and the reactor shaft scenes are how you use leitmotif and this last one is how you use sound to define characters.

That does not exist in any SW movie that's come out in the last four years...Rogue one being the only exception and for only a few scenes. Directors who don't understand this are directors who have no place directing epics, much less deconstructing them.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 19, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> And this is what modern directors don't grasp. A Movie's soundtrack is not just background noise, it's very much apart of the story telling, to the point where a movie can sink or swim due to little things like the right kind of music and the right kind of lighting. Soundtracks don't just fill in space between action scenes fucks sake...They are a part of the film itself and advance the story.
> 
> Compare
> 
> ...


Could not have said it any better myself.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 19, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> And this is what modern directors don't grasp. A Movie's soundtrack is not just background noise, it's very much apart of the story telling, to the point where a movie can sink or swim due to little things like the right kind of music and the right kind of lighting. Soundtracks don't just fill in space between action scenes fucks sake...They are a part of the film itself and advance the story.
> 
> Compare
> 
> ...


To add on to what you said these scenes here in the PT showcase how the Music still helped push the scene beyond what it already was.


Look at everything starting from Anakin finding the Tuskan Village with the tribal tunes already giving us a feel of the world and environment while also making a subtle nod of danger as he enters it. The way the music gets sad and melancholic as Anakin finds his mother at last only to have her die in his arms unable to even finish her line of "I love you" which it than grows to tragic and than slowly but steadily shifts into a dark foreboding feeling right as you see Anakin's grieving face turn into a look of stone cold hatred to which the music rapidly changes to a violent and almost psychotic sound to reflect his as we than turn to see the Tuskans react to the sound of his lightsaber igniting and see him start to slaughter the Raiders in their camp after killing the guards and than turning to strike down another. All throughout the music fits not only the feel of the world but the feeling of the character's emotion without almost any dialogue especially towards the end where the actors emotions are all you have to see and the music acts as a voice of itself without any words to tell you what he is feeling.

Even in the worst of the Prequels and one of the worst Star Wars movies in my own opinion, we still don't get anything on par as musically interesting as this in the new movies which shows us how bad it has gotten.

And than you have scenes like this in Ep 3 that do exactly what I already said 


The music makes this scene, without it it would not be anywhere near as memorable as it is today. The sad quiet foreboding as Yoda and Obi-Wan check through the ruins and dead bodies of the temple than as Kenobi asks who did it we hear the music blare to a loud almost horror-like choir of doom as we see Anakin massacring the Separatists. It cuts back to the Senate where the music than quickly becomes quieter but still grandiose and dreadful as Palpatine gives his speech that transforms the Republic into the Empire all the while as the scenes switch back and forth between him and Anakin the music changes to fit every scene but the music of the two scenes start to come together and become similar until the very end as Palpatine declares the Republic an Empire and now as he bathes himself in the glory of his success to the Senates applause and Anakin finishes off what remains of the CIS leaders becomes both grandiose and the dark choir mixes in to put the scene to an end.

Nothing in the ST comes close this at all


Also just because we're film buffs here try to watch this scene and the previous one I posted and see if you find something familiar.


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## Runner (Sep 19, 2019)

Man you dont get music like that anymore


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 20, 2019)

Hell, Mortal kombat is the best example how music can make a film worth it.
The movie itself is pretty bad, but they knew just when to play the theme.
It gave the flick an epic feeling, that really shouldn't exist in that cheese fest.


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## Fang (Sep 20, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> That would be why it sucks
> 
> 
> John Williams pretty clearly didnt give a darn when he wrote that track.



Actual fun fact: all of the amazing tracks in the OT and PT were also because Lucas was PERSONALLY and directly involved in working with Williams in fleshing out tracks for representing the Rebel Alliance, Empire, the Emperor, Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, the Jedi, the Sith, etc...


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 20, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Hell, Mortal kombat is the best example how music can make a film worth it.
> The movie itself is pretty bad, but they knew just when to play the theme.
> It gave the flick an epic feeling, that really shouldn't exist in that cheese fest.


Personally I don't think the film is bad at all and it's just harmless popcorn entertainment which is fine to watch once in a while especially with friends.

But the music was excellent and half of what made it watchable so I agree there.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2019)

So Bob Iger's autobiography talking about his 15 years as the CEO of Disney came out recently and in one part of it, he talks about how Lucas repeatedly showed he did not like the direction or story of the Sequel Trilogy films including after having a private screening of Episode VII by Kathleen Kennedy for him and he questions their lack of innovation with technology for the new films and why they were retreading everything already done in the Original Trilogy.

Pretty based.


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## Deathbringerpt (Sep 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> So Bob Iger's autobiography talking about his 15 years as the CEO of Disney came out recently and in one part of it, he talks about how Lucas repeatedly showed he did not like the direction or story of the Sequel Trilogy films including after having a private screening of Episode VII by Kathleen Kennedy for him and he questions their lack of innovation with technology for the films.
> 
> Pretty based.



I understand him being pissed for Disney throwing his ideas down the shitter but his bitchfit about technology is hilarious.  The prequels's visuals aged like milk. And  the sequels' use of real sets, costumes and makeup will be better than any whatever dumb ass notion of "technological innovation" Lucas have. I don't even remember the name of the new ball robot but turns out it's a real fucking prop which was either remote controlled or had a green screen guy moving it in real time. That is the perfect method of illusion.


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## Runner (Sep 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> So Bob Iger's autobiography talking about his 15 years as the CEO of Disney came out recently and in one part of it, he talks about how Lucas repeatedly showed he did not like the direction or story of the Sequel Trilogy films including after having a private screening of Episode VII by Kathleen Kennedy for him and he questions their lack of innovation with technology for the new films and why they were retreading everything already done in the Original Trilogy.
> 
> Pretty based.


HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> I understand him being pissed for Disney throwing his ideas down the shitter but his bitchfit about technology is hilarious.  The prequels's visuals aged like milk



Have you seen any of the the last couple of MCU films? Their CGI is ass too and most of these movies are 99% CGI blue and green screens as well. And he wasn't just mad about them not using technology in innovative ways, he was disappointed they were retreading and recycling the same story from the OT all over again in the ST.

I mean holy shit, the final fight between Killmonger and Black Panther in BP's movie was PS2 level CGI and that movie isn't quite two years old and a modern film.



> And  the sequels' use of real sets,



Lmao. Like 90% of TLJ and Solo were entirely CGI, and so was a large chunk of TLJ and I imagine so will Rise of the Skywalker. And most of TPM was done in real sets too before Lucas went with mainly blue screens and now look at today's majority of fantasy and sci-fi movies, almost all of them are done mainly on blue screens.

In fact I'm pretty sure Episode IX will have tons of CGI because of the constant reshoots due to some script issues that keep getting leaked indicating some problems before release, because you don't do that post-production 3 months before you drop your movie.



> costumes and makeup will be better than any whatever dumb ass notion of "technological innovation" Lucas have



>Sequel Trilogy
>good "costumes" or designs



Just going by alien designs, EVERYTHING is a fucking butt-face with over-exaggerated facial features and dressed in tawny or drab dark brown and grey tunics. Absolute zero creativity here, mate. Don't make me get started with their trashy spaceships and terrible starfighter designs.



> I don't even remember the name of the new ball robot but turns out it's a real fucking prop which was either remote controlled or had a green screen guy moving it in real time. That is the perfect method of illusion.



BB8 is a trash volleyball with an Artoo head. Who cares if its practical effect prop.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 24, 2019)

Lucas 


Also outside BP, MCU has good CGI


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2019)

>MCU
>good CGI



When your films look like aged milk less then 2 years after they come out that doesn't really fit


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Sep 24, 2019)

Wasn't Lucas idea for the Sequels centered around the world of the midichlorians? like literally his sequel trilogy would be about the microbes themselves, I'm not sure he has any moral to criticize anyone's decisions anymore.


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2019)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Wasn't Lucas idea for the Sequels centered around the world of the midichlorians? like literally his sequel trilogy would be about the microbes themselves, I'm not sure he has any moral to criticize anyone's decisions anymore.



No, it was just one of many ideas from a rough draft that never went anywere. Just like how JJ Abrams wanted Rey to be called "Rey Mixer" for interracial romance baiting in the early concept work for TFA. If you don't think that isn't equally cringey I don't know what to say:

And also Bob Iger sounds kind of pathetic the way he tries to play apologist for the Sequels and Kennedy:

"You can't criticize the Sequels for having zero identity of their own without ripping off the Original Trilogy, w-we were under tons of pressure to make these movies, you wouldn't know anything about that Mr. Lucas."


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 24, 2019)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Wasn't Lucas idea for the Sequels centered around the world of the midichlorians? like literally his sequel trilogy would be about the microbes themselves, I'm not sure he has any moral to criticize anyone's decisions anymore.



He called them the Whills, beings that fed from the Force and it was about exploring a microbiotic world.



> Lucas commented on his plans for the sequels in 2018. As Lucas told it, the trilogy was *“going to get into a microbiotic world,”* exploring a *“world of creatures that operate differently than we do.”*
> 
> *“I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force,”* Lucas said. *“If I’d held onto the company I could have done it, and then it would have been done. Of course, a lot of the fans would have hated it, just like they did [Episode I of Lucas’ prequel trilogy] Phantom Menace and everything, but at least the whole story from beginning to end would be told.”*


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> He called them the Whills, beings that fed from the Force and it was about exploring a microbiotic world.



Twas an outline and draft, nothing more. And that still is better than what we got with the Sequels.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Sep 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> No, it was just one of many ideas from a rough draft that never went anywere. Just like how JJ Abrams wanted Rey to be called "Rey Mixer" for interracial romance baiting in the early concept work for TFA. If you don't think that isn't equally cringey I don't know what to say:



No dude that's like not even remotely on the same level, between *Star Wars* movies about microbes having microbes adventures or whatever your idea of racial baiting is, I don't really think they are on the same level, like not at all.


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2019)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> No dude that's like not even remotely on the same level, between *Star Wars* movies about microbes having microbes adventures or whatever your idea of racial baiting is, I don't really think they are on the same level, like not at all.



You wouldn't know what the same level is period. Only thing we have is a OPed heavily biased article Sennin posted of a ROUGH outline, not even a draft being forwarded to Disney  before Iger, Kennedy, and Abrams did their own thing. So now what we have is a disjointed new trilogy if member-berries, rehashing the OT over and over again, and conflicting themes that make zero sense because of TLJ coming between the first and last film.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 24, 2019)

It was the only one going around yesterday that first reported Iger's comments and memoirs and the first one I saw yesterday, after more outlets came out. But hey, each one to their own. The same info can be found elsewhere.

Something like the Whills probably would have required a lot more of animation for such minuscule beings.


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2019)

Anyway the Whills were in the concept work and original novelization since 1977, they were cut out from the actual film/screenplay when Star Wars was original debuted on screen but still in the OG novelization which was written by Lucas and Foster. It was obviously a nod to how Lord of the Rings were actually a story narrated by a certain character AFTER the events already happened with The Hobbit and The Fellowship stories, with these guardians talking about the Skywalker Legacy and the Force.

We don't know if the microbe world or alternate dimension stuff was just one potential new story idea or the entire focus of Lucas' idea of a new trilogy because NONE of the articles actually explain it. All we know is Lucas doesn't like the Sequels and most of the fans don't either.


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## Runner (Sep 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> No, it was just one of many ideas from a rough draft that never went anywere. Just like how JJ Abrams wanted Rey to be called "Rey Mixer" for interracial romance baiting in the early concept work for TFA. If you don't think that isn't equally cringey I don't know what to say:
> 
> And also Bob Iger sounds kind of pathetic the way he tries to play apologist for the Sequels and Kennedy:
> 
> "You can't criticize the Sequels for having zero identity of their own without ripping off the Original Trilogy, w-we were under tons of pressure to make these movies, you wouldn't know anything about that Mr. Lucas."


You got links?


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2019)

Runner said:


> You got links?


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## Deathbringerpt (Sep 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> Have you seen any of the the last couple of MCU films? Their CGI is ass too and most of these movies are 99% CGI blue and green screens as well. And he wasn't just mad about them not using technology in innovative ways, he was disappointed they were retreading and recycling the same story from the OT all over again in the ST.
> 
> I mean holy shit, the final fight between Killmonger and Black Panther in BP's movie was PS2 level CGI and that movie isn't quite two years old and a modern film.



Why are you talking about MCU exactly? Besides the fact that everything you said about BP is applicable to the prequels except even more accentuated.



Fang said:


> Lmao. Like 90% of TLJ and Solo were entirely CGI, and so was a large chunk of TLJ and I imagine so will Rise of the Skywalker.



I haven't seen Solo but the irony is that that's still more than Lucas can say about the prequels. The one thing that left an impression on me from the is the First Order's HQ's. The retro sci fi look  that they were trying to emulate from the original movies were perfect. Felt genuine. But I admit I'm a sucker for real sets and retro sci fi.



Fang said:


> And most of TPM was done in real sets too before Lucas went with mainly blue screens and now look at today's majority of fantasy and sci-fi movies, almost all of them are done mainly on blue screens.



Not an excuse, just an enabling argument that describes the shitty visuals of big budget Hollywood.

There's sensible use of CGI to enhance your shot and then there's nothing but garbage green screen all over your shot and hire 500 visuals artists to make a video game cutscene. Like the Hobbit trilogy or the Prequels.

Take Blade Runner 2049. The movie is actually filled with CGI effects but it's presented seamlessly because there was a huge focus on building physical sets with a very strong use of color and lighting to add a feel of believability.




Fang said:


> Just going by alien designs, EVERYTHING is a fucking butt-face with over-exaggerated facial features and dressed in tawny or drab dark brown and grey tunics. Absolute zero creativity here, mate. Don't make me get started with their trashy spaceships and terrible starfighter designs.



So, like the original movies. Nice chat.



Fang said:


> BB8 is a trash volleyball with an Artoo head. Who cares if its practical effect prop.



Christ. This is the part where it just makes me want to bail any kind of discussion here because people just keep infusing their hate for Disney with the actual competent aspect of the movies. It's fine to hate Disney. The more people who hate it, the better.

But anyone who cares about competent visuals and organic movie effects prefers how they handled BB8. Because it's objectively better than video game 3CPO jumping and being thrown by video game construction robots in Attack of the Clones.



the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Wasn't Lucas idea for the Sequels centered around the world of the midichlorians? like literally his sequel trilogy would be about the microbes themselves, I'm not sure he has any moral to criticize anyone's decisions anymore.



If that's true, we just got the lesser shit version of bad sequels. Now we just have soulless corporate products instead of an old senile man writing CGI poetry.


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Why are you talking about MCU exactly? Besides the fact that everything you said about BP is applicable to the prequels except even more accentuated.



Everything I said with the Prequels and Sequels is perfectly applicable to them as well. You are the kind of poster who probably shits on the PT for being largely CGI derived but ignore it when most modern action and fantasy/sci-fi movies are exactly that today and have been so for the last 10 years.

This is why I hate people who have nonsensical double standards.



> I haven't seen Solo but the irony is that that's still more than Lucas can say about the prequels.



If you haven't seen Solo then you are operating in an argument with me with less information and less credibility and with a less valuable opinion on the table. And factually speaking, you are still wrong. Does Disney pushing side stories and prequel films of its own like Rogue One and Solo who no one in the fandom wanted, which have to go through multiple reshoots, recycle through post-production woes and controversial script changes that end up bombing like with Solo not tell you there is something wrong with Disney's direction of Star Wars?

If not, then you are hopeless.



> The one thing that left an impression on me from the is the First Order's HQ's. The retro sci fi look  that they were trying to emulate from the original movies were perfect. Felt genuine. But I admit I'm a sucker for real sets and retro sci fi.



That's what impressed you? A shitty low-budget set that is still mainly blue and green screen CGI? Did you not see anything that Lucas did with TPM? How the water fall effects were done with painted backgrounds, illusions of movement with sand, the architectural designs melding Middle Eastern, Indian, and Arab styles with European gothic architecture in marriage of visual novelty?

Lucas still did it better with practical effects.



> Not an excuse, just an enabling argument that describes the shitty visuals of big budget Hollywood.



What your saying isn't remotely comprehensible to me. Lucas directed, staged, and engineered his movies that got brainstormed on Skywalker Ranch so he could keep his films independent of corporate Hollywood. Not my fault after Phase 1 of the MCU and the Sequel and spin-off Disney Star Wars movies are overwhelmingly largely just as CGI heavy as the latter two Prequel films.



> There's sensible use of CGI to enhance your shot and then there's nothing but garbage green screen all over your shot and hire 500 visuals artists to make a video game cutscene. Like the Hobbit trilogy or the Prequels.



You'd have a point if the Sequels weren't just as guilty of this. But oh man, what an amazing background and foreground scene we had with Snoke's guards vs Rey and Ren in TLJ with a BRIGHT ASS RED screen and light haze and CGI all over the place. Not, that was terrible too.



> Take Blade Runner 2049. The movie is actually filled with CGI effects but it's presented seamlessly because there was a huge focus on building physical sets with a very strong use of color and lighting to add a feel of believably.



Yeah I'm a big fan of the new Blade Runner, but none of what it did is applicable to Solo, TLJ, or any of the Disney Star Wars movies. Because they did not do that. Why do I need to see dozens of useless CGI generated characters or brown and bland shabby terrain all over the pointless CGI casino and alien chicken-ostriches? That wasn't seamlessly done, it wasn't visually accenting the scene, it was just adding more throw up to have simply MORE in front of the viewer as filler.



> So, like the original movies. Nice chat.



If you actually think this you are insane.



> Christ. This is the part where it just makes me want to bail any kind of discussion here because people just keep infusing their hate for Disney with the actual competent aspect of the movies. It's fine to hate Disney. The more people who hate it, the better.



I'm not going to cut Disney any slack for shoveling a trainwreck of a film trilogy in my face while someone like you tries to heap praise on them for doing nothing original or anything new or interesting. There aren't any new worlds, their rehashes of Tatootine, Hoth, Endor, Yavin 4, and the Death Star. They shat on the Original Trilogy's heroes completely, and they haven't demonstrated any functional knowledge of making use of movies with each one having more then half a billion in production and marketing budgets to make something unique.

You play the apologist and stay in their corner if you don't think they deserve this sort of harsh criticism.



> But anyone who cares about competent visuals and organic movie effects prefers how they handled BB8. Because it's objectively better than video game 3CPO jumping and being thrown by video game construction robots in Attack of the Clones.



Pot to kettle:

 



> If that's true, we just got the lesser shit version of bad sequels. Now we just have soulless corporate products instead of an old senile man writing CGI poetry.



The old senile man would still make a better movie trilogy then soulless drivel that we got that is a disjointed trainwreck as far as plot is concerned and an incoherent storyline layered atop that. Enjoy it I guess, you must be a sadomasochist if you think that legitimately about the Sequels then I don't feel the need to bother continuing this conversation with you.


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## Fang (Sep 24, 2019)

Absolute TOP TIER kino fight choreography here, based Rian Johnson dabbing on PT fans by having the final major fight scene in red with red armored men so you can't tell what the fuck is going on half the time.

A cinematic genius.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 24, 2019)

Goddamn this whole thread just turned into Fang BTFO of NuWars shills.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 24, 2019)

thank god they bought that shit before senile Lucas could do midichlorians


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 24, 2019)

Thank god this franchise is tanking all around thanks to Disney shoving in its shitty politics and terrible business choices. Would be great to have it sold off to any studio worth a damn to not fuck it anymore so.


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## Xebec (Sep 24, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> thank god they bought that shit before senile Lucas could do midichlorians


nah that would have been much cooler and more interesting than this crap we've gotten


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## Cichy (Sep 25, 2019)

I understand not liking the new trilogy movies, thats fine. But saying they are worse then Lucas' prequel shitshow is whole other level of blind.

There is a reason why people hated those movies with burning passion whether it be awful ideas, cringe dialogs, bad acting or terrible effects. Lucas is the last person that has the right of criticizing anyone after he ruined his own series.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 25, 2019)

"awful ideas, cringe dialogs, bad acting or terrible effects."
Literally all of that is even more applicable to the Sequels. Only the blind would think otherwise.


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## Cichy (Sep 25, 2019)

For none of the categories you gave sequels are worse. You can criticize them for lack of new ideas and I can somewhat agree about it, but is not nearly as bad as the prequels.

There's a reason why those movies were memed to death, whether it be midi-bullshit, Anakin's angsty lines about sand or special effects that looked bad even back then (things like LOTR trilogy came out around the same time). They are like "The Room" of sci-fi, you can't watch them seriously without wondering what was Lucas thinking.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Sep 25, 2019)

Cichy said:


> For none of the categories you gave sequels are worse.


If the sequels are criticized for lacking a coherent story structure AFTER the prequels have been made; it's worse off than the prequels.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 25, 2019)

Cichy said:


> There's a reason why those movies were memed to death, whether it be midi-bullshit


Mid-clorians are not even close to being as bad as MaRey Sue just being better at literally everything for no explicable reason, force ghosts just summoning  lighting out of nowhere, or the even more retarded explanation for Rey's growth in the books being some stupid ass mind copy ability that she just so happens to have. Mid-clorians by contrast are more hated by idiots who don't even know what the fuck it actually is because they think it is the force when they are two separate things entirely.


Cichy said:


> Anakin's angsty lines about sand


Your really gonna defend the Sequels by drawing on the angst of the Prequels? Emo Ren is ten times that annoying and whiny.


Cichy said:


> or special effects that looked bad even back then (things like LOTR trilogy came out around the same time).


This always sounded like a dumb argument because it implies LOTR was the average film of the time when that was top of the line that most films never stood up to. In comparison to most films of the time even AOTC which aged worse of the Prequels due to it being Lucas's first time filming digital was better in special effects than the average blockbuster.



Cichy said:


> They are like "The Room" of sci-fi, you can't watch them seriously without wondering what was Lucas thinking.


Says you who unironically defends shit like Starkiller base and Rose Tico.

I would rather be watching The Room over any of the Sequels because at least the former is actually entertaining compared to the Rehashed Awakens and TLJ.


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## Cichy (Sep 25, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Mid-clorians are not even close to being as bad as MaRey Sue just being better at literally everything for no explicable reason, force ghosts just summoning  lighting out of nowhere, or the even more retarded explanation for Rey's growth in the books being some stupid ass mind copy ability that she just so happens to have. Mid-clorians by contrast are more hated by idiots who don't even know what the fuck it actually is because they think it is the force when they are two separate things entirely.


I'm not even a fan of Ray, but at least they gave some explenation on why she's overpowered. Meanwhile 9-years old Anakin could construct pod racers from the junk, build AI robots by himself and win the most dangerous race on the planet. Seriously, you complain about Mary Sue Ray, but what about baby genius Vader? Also, kid-Ani trying to hit on Padme was creepy as fuck...



NostalgiaFan said:


> Your really gonna defend the Sequels by drawing on the angst of the Prequels? Emo Ren is ten times that annoying and whiny.


Not even close. The level of cringe that came out from Anakin's mouth was the biggest that Star Wars ever seen in history.



NostalgiaFan said:


> This always sounded like a dumb argument because it implies LOTR was the average film of the time when that was top of the line that most films never stood up to. In comparison to most films of the time even AOTC which aged worse of the Prequels due to it being Lucas's first time filming digital was better in special effects than the average blockbuster.


The fans were complaining about the effects already when those movies came out. Yes, the LOTR was a high bar, but it's Star Wars we're talking about. Those movies set a standard when it comes to special effects in the past and expecting them to be on high tier for their times is only natural.



NostalgiaFan said:


> Says you who unironically defends shit like Starkiller base and Rose Tico.


???
I never said a word about Starkiller base or Rose Tico.


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## Cichy (Sep 25, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> If the sequels are criticized for lacking a coherent story structure AFTER the prequels have been made; it's worse off than the prequels.


No, because thats just one of many components that make movies good or bad...


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## MartialHorror (Sep 25, 2019)

... What's the big deal with force ghosts being able to summon lightning? Obi Wan did say if Vader struck him down, then he'd become more powerful than ever before.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 25, 2019)

You know, if Yoda force ghosting lightning is really a problem, then maybe we shouldn't complain that "The Force Awakens" is too much like the OT, as apparently anything that was not actually in the OT is "random" and worth whining about.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 25, 2019)

Cichy said:


> I'm not even a fan of Ray, but at least they gave some explenation on why she's overpowered.


Wrong, they only explained it in the novelization and the explanation does not even tells why she can do that when no other Jedi could. And that is only her force abilities, she has less reason to be better at piloting the Falcon than Han Fucking Solo, swim in water when she never even seen it before in her life, or somehow speak Wookie better than Luke can despite him knowing Chewbacca for decades.


Cichy said:


> Meanwhile 9-years old Anakin could construct pod racers from the junk, build AI robots by himself and win the most dangerous race on the planet.


You mean shit that actually makes sense because he grew up around pod racing and working with droids? Said race he won only after losing a previous one and having to improve his building specs just to compete again? And they state how his use of the force and unusual birth helped to win? Said unusual birth leading Qui-Gon to conclude he is a born from the force itself which the movie itself states without having to force you to read a novel just to understand that?



Because that is a pretty bad equivalency argument you got there if you are comparing it to Rey.


Cichy said:


> Seriously, you complain about Mary Sue Ray, but what about baby genius Vader? Also, kid-Ani trying to hit on Padme was creepy as fuck...


Anakin had good reason to be good at the shit he was good at unlike Rey who was mentally overpowering a seasoned Force User like Kylo who had decades of experience over her.

And a 9 year old crushing on a 14 year is creepy? What secluded house do you live in?


Cichy said:


> Not even close. The level of cringe that came out from Anakin's mouth was the biggest that Star Wars ever seen in history.


Nowhere near as bad as Kylo acting like a manchild, Holdo making her retarded "hope is like the sun" spiel, or Rose's bitching about capitalism her shitty home and especially her "saving what we love" horse shit. "I hate sand" is more silly and awkward than outright cringy like those were.


Cichy said:


> The fans were complaining about the effects already when those movies came out. Yes, the LOTR was a high bar, but it's Star Wars we're talking about. Those movies set a standard when it comes to special effects in the past and expecting them to be on high tier for their times is only natural.


Which fans? the small minority that got louder as the years went by? or the people who already complained about how early 2000s CGI looked because that shit was common to most films and AOTC was the most criticized of the Prequels for it but it was not the lone duck compared to most films as bad as shit like the Mummy movies or the early Harry Potter films, or Spider Man 1 which came out the same month as Episode 2. TPM was fine with it's effects for the day and ROTS improved on AOTC's faults tremendously so bitching about them would be hypocritical considering not only are the new movies using more CGI than they did but most movies period do that nowadays and half if not most look worse than most of the Prequels did.


Cichy said:


> I never said a word about Starkiller base or Rose Tico.


You stated the sequels were far better which indicated you thought those shitty characters and plot elements were as well. Than again almost every element about the Sequels is worse than the Prequels so I just put out two of the various examples that come to mind.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Sep 25, 2019)

What’s this novel you guys are talking about and what does it reveal?


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 25, 2019)

MShadows said:


> What’s this novel you guys are talking about and what does it reveal?


I heard it was in the Last Jedi Novelization that "explained" her mind copy power, which only served to worsen her image as a Mary Sue because there is literally no explanation why or how she did it.


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## MShadows (Sep 25, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I heard it was in the Last Jedi Novelization that "explained" her mind copy power, which only served to worsen her image as a Mary Sue because there is literally no explanation why or how she did it.


So she has the ability to somehow copy other people's skills and powers?


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 25, 2019)

MShadows said:


> So she has the ability to somehow copy other people's skills and powers?


Supposedly, but with how the novelizations have been contradicted (something Disney said it would not let happen because of it's "commitment" to a better continuity than the old EU) it would not surprise me if they retcon that as well.


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## MShadows (Sep 25, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Supposedly, but with how the novelizations have been contradicted (something Disney said it would not let happen because of it's "commitment" to a better continuity than the old EU) it would not surprise me if they retcon that as well.


Yeah, well that's a very cheap excuse to basically give her each and every ability she'd be able to perform as a human.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 25, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 25, 2019)

So Johnson and D&D are going to be pushed to the side for now?


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## Mider T (Sep 25, 2019)

Yes! Yes!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Unlosing Ranger (Sep 25, 2019)

Cichy said:


> No, because thats just one of many components that make movies good or bad...


It's literally the most important component. You can complain about dated special effects forever, but that doesn't stop something that could be 5 generations back from being better anyway. 8 bit games can have a better story than a ps4 game. Literally performing a legit approved coup from a senate is something the sequels will never do. A bit of awkward acting here and there doesn't ruin a movie. A bad script that is non-sensible even in basic concepts does. Jake skywalker sure is legit.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 25, 2019)

MShadows said:


> What’s this novel you guys are talking about and what does it reveal?


The gig is up, Igers biography revealed that lucas doesnt like any of the disney stuff.


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## MShadows (Sep 25, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> The gig is up, Igers biography revealed that lucas doesnt like any of the disney stuff.


Not even surprised. I’d actually expect him to be disgusted by this travesty.


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## Skaddix (Sep 26, 2019)

LOL KEVIN FEIGE to clean up this shit show.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 26, 2019)

The Infinity Force


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 26, 2019)

Lmao but how would Kevin have the time for both franchises

Poor guy


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## ~VK~ (Sep 26, 2019)

feige shouldn't sully his hands dealing with this shit franchise


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## Kuromaku (Sep 26, 2019)

Kevin's great at a consistent tone, but he also has overseen an assembly line of movies that are built around being mediocre to good but not great, and that is one of my fears with an improved Disney Wars. Meanwhile, the MCU itself is getting unwieldy and starting to suffer from the snarls that plague the comics.

I really hope they don't do a Yoda origins movie. George was adamant about not revealing too much about a character whose appeal lay in good part in his mystique (shame that he didn't apply this to Boba Fett).


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## MartialHorror (Sep 26, 2019)

For those boasting how Lucas didn't like the new SW films,

didn't Lucas also call "Empire Strikes Back" the worst of the OT? I remember an interview when he said something along the lines of he didn't like the idea of letting someone else do a new Star Wars movie and he wasn't involved in TESB as much as the others, so it's easy to assume that his preference is based on his involvement... and much of his frustration seems to be that Disney didn't use HIS ideas. So why does this matter? Especially as Lucas has taken shots at TFA in interviews already, so I don't see how this is some bombshell.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Sep 26, 2019)

Feigi makes a Darth Bane movie












With Brie Larson as Darth Bane
Kappa


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## Kuromaku (Sep 26, 2019)

Nah, just have Tom Hardy play Bane


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## Suigetsu (Sep 26, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Not even surprised. I’d actually expect him to be disgusted by this travesty.


Did you saw what BOB Iger said? Lucas felt completely betrayed and was taken off guard because they betrayed his trust... these people are freaking awful! And I am not surprised because Hollywood is plagued with that kind of folks, hence why you should treasure good people over there and why Lucas hated the studios... Ironic, he ended up trusting them and look how it ended up.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 26, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Yes! Yes!!


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 26, 2019)

An open mouth soy face would have been more fitting


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2019)

Feige can't be worse then Kennedy so I suppose its a potential turn then again

>MCU Phase 4

Welp


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## Suigetsu (Sep 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> Feige can't be worse then Kennedy so I suppose its a potential turn then again
> 
> >MCU Phase 4
> 
> Welp


Feige may produce silly movies that arent made to last but at the very least he is not out of touch with the audience, they sort of respect the source material. Which is something that kAY Kay doesnt. Let me remind you that this is the woman that thought having the spinosaurus killing the t-rex in jurassic park 3 was a cool idea and allowes Joe Jonston to do it. Now Jonston has been getting bashed ever since then... Like Ryan Jonson but not so much.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 26, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> Feige may produce silly movies that arent made to last but at the very least he is not out of touch with the audience, they sort of respect the source material. Which is something that kAY Kay doesnt. Let me remind you that this is the woman that thought having the spinosaurus killing the t-rex in jurassic park 3 was a cool idea and allowes Joe Jonston to do it. Now Jonston has been getting bashed ever since then... Like Ryan Jonson but not so much.


Wow I never even knew that but now it makes sense in context.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 26, 2019)

Wait, so is the suggestion that Kennedy came up with the Spinosaurus-Rex battle? Because as far as I know, Johnson has always taken the credit for that.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 26, 2019)




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## Son Of Man (Sep 26, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Feigi makes a Darth Bane movie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MShadows (Sep 27, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


>


Jesus, have mercy


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## Pilaf (Sep 27, 2019)

I'd say my childhood is utterly dead at this point, but the new Dark Crystal show turned out to be good. At least the ghost of Jim Henson is happy, even if Lucas is having aneurisms about how they massacred his boy.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 27, 2019)




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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 27, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 27, 2019)

Are they still trying to keep Phasma alive?


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## Suigetsu (Sep 27, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I'd say my childhood is utterly dead at this point, but the new Dark Crystal show turned out to be good. At least the ghost of Jim Henson is happy, even if Lucas is having aneurisms about how they massacred his boy.


ehh the show is “alright” it does have its feminazi lib bombs here and there and some inconsistencies. But its fun and respects is source material so its fun.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 27, 2019)

The helmet was the only good thing about kylo.
Now it just looks like he superglued it back together, using edgy red glue.


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## Mider T (Sep 27, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Are they still trying to keep Phasma alive?


Where are you getting that from?


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 27, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Where are you getting that from?


Look at the lower right of the first poster dude.


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## MShadows (Sep 27, 2019)

I see a lot of Fodder Troopers on those posters, but where is General Hux??


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 27, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I see a lot of Fodder Troopers on those posters, but where is General Hux??


In the trash bin where he belongs.


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## MShadows (Sep 27, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> In the trash bin where he belongs.


I actually found him interesting. At least in the first movie. I still enjoyed his tantrums in TLJ, even tho he turned into comic relief.

I find him a much better character than Rey.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 27, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I actually found him interesting. At least in the first movie. I still enjoyed his tantrums in TLJ, even tho he turned into comic relief.
> 
> I find him a much better character than Rey.


High bars there


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## dr_shadow (Sep 29, 2019)

Kylo's crossguard lightsaber still looks silly.


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## reiatsuflow (Sep 29, 2019)

It's not a crossguard it's 'venting' because a weird kyber crystal was used and the beam is unstable


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## MartialHorror (Sep 29, 2019)

I dont mind Kylo Ren's light saber, as I think it's actually more practical than normal light sabers and isn't quite as... random... as the purple one. 

But I don't want this to become a normal thing. Every once in awhile it's cool to expand on the lightsaber gimmicks, but it is something that should be done sparingly. Darth Maul's saber is cool. Not sure what's going on with Rey's variation, but I'd need to see it in action before passing judgement.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 29, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Sep 29, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


>


Bottom image looks cool. Rey powering up?


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## MShadows (Sep 29, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Bottom image looks cool. Rey powering up?


Rey this movie


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## Zeta42 (Sep 30, 2019)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


>


Kylo looks like he's about to start Naruto running


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## MShadows (Sep 30, 2019)

Zeta42 said:


> Kylo looks like he's about to start Naruto running


Well he's already in Area 51 if you could say so


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## Suigetsu (Sep 30, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Well he's already in Area 51 if you could say so


He is even cosplaying as sasuke from burrito.


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## MShadows (Sep 30, 2019)

Apparently, the full plot has been leaked.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 30, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Apparently, the full plot has been leaked.


And it sounds retarded.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 30, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> And it sounds retarded.


What is it about? You sure it isnt another JJ miss information stunt?


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## MShadows (Sep 30, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> And it sounds retarded.


Really now, if those leaks are true then this is garbage.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 30, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> What is it about? You sure it isnt another JJ miss information stunt?


Ask Xhominid and you can only pray it is misinformation.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 30, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Really now, if those leaks are true then this is garbage.


Implying it isn't already.


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## Suigetsu (Sep 30, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Ask Xhominid and you can only pray it is misinformation.


I think this dumpster turning in fire its going to be hilarious! Pure karma pay for what they did to Lucas.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 30, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> I think this dumpster turning in fire its going to be hilarious! *Pure karma pay for what they did to Lucas*.



Pay him 4 billion dollars? The monsters!


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## Son Of Man (Sep 30, 2019)

Where can I see these leaks? I usually wait for /tv/ to shitpost about leaks but can't find anything


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 30, 2019)

Put under spoiler tags if you are going to talk in depth about these leaks/spoilers.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 1, 2019)

The alleged leak sounds awfully detailed. Normally, a valid leak is conveyed secondhand or is outright copied from the original source (if it isn't a primary source outright), and this sounds too laid out for a secondhand leak. TFA's leaks at least only kept the outline of the story, and did turn out to be valid.


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## MShadows (Oct 1, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Where can I see these leaks? I usually wait for /tv/ to shitpost about leaks but can't find anything


They’re on reddit. Wanna check them?


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## Ren. (Oct 1, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Pay him 4 billion dollars? The monsters!


Should have been 40 for this crap!


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## Ren. (Oct 1, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Where can I see these leaks? I usually wait for /tv/ to shitpost about leaks but can't find anything


Don't, it is pure crap!


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## Son Of Man (Oct 1, 2019)

Just read them

These mothafukas doubled down on shit I thought would stay fairly vague


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## Ren. (Oct 1, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Just read them
> 
> These mothafukas doubled down on shit I thought would stay fairly vague


No .... welcome to the dark side.

We have shit movies now!


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## Ren. (Oct 1, 2019)

*Brie Larson In Star Wars Trilogy Directed By Kevin Feige!*
**


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## MShadows (Oct 1, 2019)

QMS said:


> *Brie Larson In Star Wars Trilogy Directed By Kevin Feige!*
> **


Lots of dumb moves by Disney recently.

Just let the fuckin franchise rest in peace already.


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## Zeta42 (Oct 1, 2019)

Brie Larson would make a great addition to the prequel Jedi Council.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 1, 2019)

Didn't George Lucas say that he was going to use his Star Wars money to produce smaller dream projects of his? Whatever happened to that? Even though he hasn't produced many great films outside of his flagship franchise, I've always respected how unconventional and different his movies were. 

With that said, I wonder if part of his lack of output is simply because is "brand' is unreliable. The whole "Red Tails" debacle probably hurt his standing with studios (if memory serves, he accused studios of not wanting to finance a movie with an all-black cast; they responded that Lucas had unreasonable demands surrounding his cut) and "Strange Magic" outright flopped. 

But even then, I guess it would come down to how small these projects would be, as Lucas's will always have at least some drawing power. It just seems like he has no interest in filmmaking right now. 

But maybe "Indiana Jones 5" (if it ever happens) will revive his enthusiasm. He's supposedly involved with Episode 9, but at this point, who the f@ck knows. I remember him saying how he liked "The Force Awakens" too during the build up to his release, which obviously turned out to be a lie, so he's not above "selling" his namesake. Even though Lucas was talking about bringing back Star Wars before he sold it to Disney, I doubt he would've ever done so... and the fact that he ended up selling the property shows he was either not interested enough or was wary of the fan reactions (lol).


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## MartialHorror (Oct 1, 2019)

Just for the sake of curiosity, what do you guys think about "Kingdom of the Crystal Skull"? People keep saying that Lucas would've done Star Wars right, etc., but based on interviews -- Lucas seemed to be more responsible for KoCS than Spielberg was. I personally enjoyed the movie, but I've never been as big of an Indiana Jones fanboy as most of its haters seemed to be.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Oct 1, 2019)

I saw it 11 years ago when I was younger and back then didn't think too much about it afterwards so I liked it, but over time I realized it made a bunch of awful historical inaccuracies and that changed the way I perceived the movie. A lot of people also had an issue with the "fridge > nuke" scene at the beginning. I think you can enjoy it more if you just turn off your brain more than usual for other films.


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## Ebisu's Shades (Oct 1, 2019)

Enjoyed Kingdom of the Crystal Skull as much as the other Indy films.  I was glad to see Marion back.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 1, 2019)

Many of you here owe him an apology, apologise to him.

This song sums pretty much it, remember!


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Oct 2, 2019)




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## dr_shadow (Oct 3, 2019)

Man, less than three months to go and I'm not the least bit excited. I've half forgotten this movie is coming out.


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## MShadows (Oct 3, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Man, less than three months to go and I'm not the least bit excited. I've half forgotten this movie is coming out.


Good thing you didn't read the leaks then


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## dr_shadow (Oct 3, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Good thing you didn't read the leaks then



I heard a summary in a Midnight's Edge video, and I thought "this sounds so stupid it might just be true".

As in, it appears tonally and thematically consistent with The Last Jedi.


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## MShadows (Oct 3, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I heard a summary in a Midnight's Edge video, and I thought "this sounds so stupid it might just be true".
> 
> As in, it appears tonally and thematically consistent with The Last Jedi.


Pretty much. 

I was thinking that maybe Abrams might just try and salvage whatever was left of this franchise for a final entry, but it's just as bad.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 3, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> I was thinking that maybe Abrams might just try and salvage whatever was left of this franchise for a final entry, but it's just as bad.


Abrahams has never been able to write a finale. He only uses mystery Box, he has also never done an original movie.


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## Garcher (Oct 3, 2019)

the fact that Palpatine lives is just so disrespectful


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## Suigetsu (Oct 4, 2019)

So does this guy throw a granade at someone then hit them with his club, or does he hit them with his club and THEN throw a granade at them?


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 4, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> So does this guy throw a granade at someone then hit them with his club, or does he hit them with his club and THEN throw a granade at them?


These guys are supposed to be this era's equivalent to the sith and they look like complete ass. Fan made cosplays look better than this.


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## Turrin (Oct 7, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Just for the sake of curiosity, what do you guys think about "Kingdom of the Crystal Skull"? People keep saying that Lucas would've done Star Wars right, etc., but based on interviews -- Lucas seemed to be more responsible for KoCS than Spielberg was. I personally enjoyed the movie, but I've never been as big of an Indiana Jones fanboy as most of its haters seemed to be.


The idea that George would have done better is just something people are saying because they aren’t happy with the new trilogy that they know isn’t true. Let alone Crystal Skull, Attack of the Clones and Phantom Menace are far worse movies then anything in the new Trilogy; and in a few years when people cool down on the hate of the new trilogy people will realize this again.

In-fact I maintain nostalgia goggles aside Return of the Jedi is a worse movie then anything in the new series or at best of the same quality


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## Son Of Man (Oct 7, 2019)

They're finally releasing a Kylo Ren novel. 
While I don't really like the character I am interested in knowing about his turn to the darkside.


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## JFF (Oct 7, 2019)

I am not sure if that was discussed already. Apparently the whole story was leaked. It seems possible from what I read -- or you would need alot of imagination.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 8, 2019)

How do you fuck up a cash cow so badly and so rapidly within its own fanbase? Even the prequels at least offset any criticism of the movies by finding other ways to expand and revive the franchise.

And now this nightmare scenario might just be replaced with one where Kevin Feige turns _Star Wars _into the MCU, releasing mediocre to good movies on an assembly line for years to come. Thanks, Disney.


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## Catalyst75 (Oct 8, 2019)




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## MShadows (Oct 8, 2019)

If Rey would've actually turned evil I wouldn't have minded a makeover like this


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## Kuromaku (Oct 8, 2019)

Rian Johnson needs to take notes on what it means to make a divisive film. He made TLJ, which impressed a majority of critics well enough, but split the fanbase. However, _Joker_ is a better example of what a truly divisive movie looks like. Foreign critics seem to have liked it well enough to give it a frigging Golden Lion (who saw that coming?), while American critics (who, to be fair, have fallen prey to the School of Resentment) are more torn. That's what a divisive film does: it splits the professionals between those who can't stop praising it and those who hate it.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 8, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Rian Johnson needs to take notes on what it means to make a divisive film. He made TLJ, which impressed a majority of critics well enough, but split the fanbase. However, _Joker_ is a better example of what a truly divisive movie looks like. Foreign critics seem to have liked it well enough to give it a frigging Golden Lion (who saw that coming?), while American critics (who, to be fair, have fallen prey to the School of Resentment) are more torn. That's what a divisive film does: it splits the professionals between those who can't stop praising it and those who hate it.



... Was Rian Johnson trying to make a divisive film? Honestly, whether it worked or not, much of TLJ seemed designed to be a response to the complaints that TFA was too much like the original SW.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 8, 2019)

So apparently RJ's newest film -- "Knives Out" -- is getting really good reviews. I hope it satisfies, as I'm a huge fan of Agatha Christie-styled murder mysteries. There just aren't enough of them these days.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> ... Was Rian Johnson trying to make a divisive film? Honestly, whether it worked or not, much of TLJ seemed designed to be a response to the complaints that TFA was too much like the original SW.



RJ has stated in the past that his goal is to make a divisive movie that you either like or hate. The problem with TLJ was that it was divisive in the wrong way, seemingly being made to appeal to American critics, but not really appealing to the fandom as well as it should have (in fact, it's like the prequels all over again).


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## MartialHorror (Oct 8, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> RJ has stated in the past that his goal is to make a divisive movie that you either like or hate. The problem with TLJ was that it was divisive in the wrong way, seemingly being made to appeal to American critics, but not really appealing to the fandom as well as it should have (in fact, it's like the prequels all over again).



Ah, fair point.

But I personally think it was inevitable anyway. The fandom has been difficult for awhile now and while it was wrong for Kennedy to dismiss all of the skeptics and critics as trolls, sexists, bigots, etc... it does seem to attract an unusual amount of them, although they also like to swarm Disney products in general. At worst, "The Last Jedi" simply aggravated an issue that was already there.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 8, 2019)

I'd argue that while there are pains in the asses on the Internet and among the fandom, Disney reacting as they did to criticism only encouraged the worst to come out of the woodwork. Remember when Hillary Clinton and the media all but created the alt-right proper? Same basic principle.

It's kind of absurd that the three most controversial movies in America the past few years were the _Ghostbusters_ remake, TLJ, and now _Joker_.


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## JFF (Oct 8, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> RJ has stated in the past that his goal is to make a divisive movie that you either like or hate. The problem with TLJ was that it was divisive in the wrong way, seemingly being made to appeal to American critics, but not really appealing to the fandom as well as it should have (in fact, it's like the prequels all over again).



You might say, he flattened it out till you asked yourself ... What was that movie again ? And he kinda killed anything the Franchise was based on. If that was the intention -- great job  And I like to point out, that I was one of the silent critics back then.

So we see how it will go with the "Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker" & Abrams. I am not so sure that the fan-base forgets so easily.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Oct 8, 2019)

Dedicated fandoms in general are always terrible, the Star Wars fandom are a bunch of -snip-impossible to please, lately they have decided to retroactively like the Prequels but I remember well how back then they hated them and claimed they had ruined Star Wars, right now they hate the Sequel Trilogy, but I fully expect that when the next trilogy comes they will hate it and retroactively declare the Sequel Trilogy a masterpiece, and the cycle will keep on repeating.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 8, 2019)

People really conflating the views they saw from internet critics with the actual views of the fandom at the time of the Prequels. Actual reception was far more mixed at worst and leaning to positive at best when it was years later they started getting hated into memedom. Sells and reception are far worse for the sequels than it has ever been in Star Wars history.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Oct 8, 2019)

I followed every news and discussions I could back then and I'm pretty sure the more dedicated fans trashed the movies pretty brutally, despite watching each movie at least 20 times.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> People really conflating the views they saw from internet critics with the actual views of the fandom at the time of the Prequels. Actual reception was far more mixed at worst and leaning to positive at best when it was years later they started getting hated into memedom. Sells and reception are far worse for the sequels than it has ever been in Star Wars history.



Is there any way for you to actually prove this?


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 8, 2019)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> I followed every news and discussions I could back then and I'm pretty sure the more dedicated fans trashed the movies pretty brutally, despite watching each movie at least 20 times.


>more dedicated 
Tells me nothing really besides them being a minority than, since like I said the reception was more mixed at worst than anything with thoese "dedicated" fans being apart of the more negative side.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Is there any way for you to actually prove this?


I know you have bad memory but that is still no excuse to pretend the sequels have not been doing terribly in fan reception.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I know you have bad memory but that is still no excuse to pretend the sequels have not been doing terribly in fan reception.



I was referring to your claims that the prequels weren't poorly received by the fandom. Your word alone doesn't cut it.


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## Catalyst75 (Oct 8, 2019)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Dedicated fandoms in general are always terrible, the Star Wars fandom are a bunch of -snip-impossible to please, lately they have decided to retroactively like the Prequels but I remember well how back then they hated them and claimed they had ruined Star Wars, right now they hate the Sequel Trilogy, but I fully expect that when the next trilogy comes they will hate it and retroactively declare the Sequel Trilogy a masterpiece, and the cycle will keep on repeating.



That is only if you considered the "dedicated fandom" to be only the parts most vocal about their dislikes. They "talk" like they represent the "true fans", but it's best to assume they aren't.

I'm not all to informed about the backlash against the Prequels back then, but I think a look at what the EU was getting into back then compared to the Prequel Trilogy may tell you something all you need. While the EU just introduced an extra-galactic, polytheistic anti-Force alien race that was genociding entire planets i.e. a grimdark aesthetic a far cry from the original films, the Prequels was more light-hearted and started overturning preconceptions people had about the pre-Original Trilogy era.

You'd be amazed by how much, and in how many ways, the EU forcibly tried to weld its continuity together with new information revealed in both the films and, later, the _Clone Wars _series (which outright contradicted and superseded EU material in some places).

The Sequel Trilogy is different because it wiped the slate clean of anything that wasn't from the films or the _Clone Wars _TV series, though old EU material can and has been reintroduced in the new canon, such as Thrawn. It means that the cluttered mess of forcibly welding pre-Prequel Trilogy EU with the Prequel Trilogies is not an issue, but it also means that, now, everyone not involved in writing the stories of the new canon has no idea what is coming next. 

We don't know what "Project Luminous" is, for example, and can only speculate that it has to do with whatever is revealed during "Rise of Skywalker".



MartialHorror said:


> I was referring to your claims that the prequels weren't poorly received by the fandom. Your word alone doesn't cut it.



I think Jake Lloyd and Ahmed Best can attest to how badly received by fans the Prequels were, given the horrible backlash both received from starring in "Phantom Menace".


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I was referring to your claims that the prequels weren't poorly received by the fandom. Your word alone doesn't cut it.


I stated they were mixed, which if you bothered to look at the reviews they got back in the day and the sells for the films and merchandise which I have repeatedly told you over and by now, it shows the PT did not get hated as much until years after. Only 2 which was considered the worst of the bunch had as much bad talk around its release as the Prequels overall got on the internet later on where as 1 and 3 were received more positively on release.

But of course only I am called to back shit up where as your side had only hearsay but that does not mind you of course since standards only exist for others, not for you.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I stated they were mixed, which if you bothered to look at the reviews they got back in the day and the sells for the films and merchandise which I have repeatedly told you over and by now, it shows the PT did not get hated as much until years after. Only 2 which was considered the worst of the bunch had as much bad talk around its release as the Prequels overall got on the internet later on where as 1 and 3 were received more positively on release.
> 
> But of course only I am called to back shit up where as your side had only hearsay but that does not mind you of course since standards only exist for others, not for you.



So if the reviews matter, does this mean that the sequels are in fact... better than the prequels? Cause "The Last Jedi" and the other new films all got better "reviews" too. As for toys, the prequels made for some cool toys... as the "Transformers" franchise tells us though, that doesn't make the movies good.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 8, 2019)

That's the problem with revisionists trying to claim that the prequels weren't hated by much of the fandom. If you say they were, then they bring up critics' reviews, when mainstream critics have also been friendly to the sequel trilogy, which has received a similar reception to the prequels, except that now the Internet is more prominent in the mainstream. Then they'll say that it was just the Internet-based fandom saying that, except it's one, the same now, and two, where do you think the nerds are congregating?

 and  like these don't pop up in the earlier days of the Internet unless the nerds who comprise the fandom ain't into something. The famous Plinkett reviews are themselves actually not all that standout in terms of new content: you can actually find the origins of Stoklasa's arguments all over the place prior to his review. All he really did was put them all in one place and refine them. Hell, look at more recent articles that try to say that the prequels weren't all that bad. They don't contest the narrative of them being controversial among the fandom since their original release, but instead focus on rehabilitating the movies themselves.

Edit: Here's  from back in the day. The prequels were a punching bag, but EU material and the Clone Wars series (both of them) really salvaged the franchise, on top of excellent and ubiquitous marketing.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> So if the reviews matter, does this mean that the sequels are in fact... better than the prequels? Cause "The Last Jedi" and the other new films all got better "reviews" too. As for toys, the prequels made for some cool toys... as the "Transformers" franchise tells us though, that doesn't make the movies good.


Oh look you missed the point once again, what a damn surprise. In case you forgot I was talking about the reception of the Prequels back when they came out in terms of how they were looked at before internet critics like RLM and others shitted on them hard driving the negativity up, you of course only take one part of my argument and than ignore the rest of the context to put words into my mouth once again. TLJ and Solo as we have seen have gotten worse fan reception than any before with the former having the biggest drop of a SW sequel ever and Solo being the first SW film to outright bomb, I keep having to remind you of that but you ignore it as always.

And Merchandise includes more shit than "toys" which you should already know by now, the entire franchise is doing worse period with everything tanking and under performing. You keep bringing up this "that does not make them good" when that is not even the point of the argument at hand, the point is that SW reception, regardless of bias, is at an all time low worse than even the PT that people like to harp on about so much was and there is nothing but denial about that if you seriously think otherwise.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 8, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> That's the problem with revisionists trying to claim that the prequels weren't hated by much of the fandom.


>implying I ever said they were not hated by some fans

I outright stated the reception was mixed at releases and got worse over the years dude. No where did I say they were not hated at all or only got hated by internet critics. It's funny how to disprove me on the latter point you source up....a bunch of literally who internet critics most SW Fans likely never even heard of much less read about. There were always detractors and the vocal minority complaining but if you seriously think RLM was not the most significant of them when almost every single PT hater larps up their points and constantly references them all the time you're just deluding yourself.


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## Zef (Oct 8, 2019)

Where can I read spoilers?


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## MartialHorror (Oct 8, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Oh look you missed the point once again, what a damn surprise. In case you forgot I was talking about the reception of the Prequels back when they came out in terms of how they were looked at before internet critics like RLM and others shitted on them hard driving the negativity up, you of course only take one part of my argument and than ignore the rest of the context to put words into my mouth once again. TLJ and Solo as we have seen have gotten worse fan reception than any before with the former having the biggest drop of a SW sequel ever and Solo being the first SW film to outright bomb, I keep having to remind you of that but you ignore it as always.
> 
> And Merchandise includes more shit than "toys" which you should already know by now, the entire franchise is doing worse period with everything tanking and under performing. You keep bringing up this "that does not make them good" when that is not even the point of the argument at hand, the point is that SW reception, regardless of bias, is at an all time low worse than even the PT that people like to harp on about so much was and there is nothing but denial about that if you seriously think otherwise.



How am I taking anything out of context? You're convoluting your own posts by responding to points I wasn't even making. I wasn't talking about "Solo" or the new films. I was talking about the prequels.

You said the "reviews"... do you know what actual reviews are?

I've also never disputed that the merchandising is failing.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 9, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> >implying I ever said they were not hated by some fans
> 
> I outright stated the reception was mixed at releases and got worse over the years dude. No where did I say they were not hated at all or only got hated by internet critics. It's funny how to disprove me on the latter point you source up....a bunch of literally who internet critics most SW Fans likely never even heard of much less read about. There were always detractors and the vocal minority complaining but if you seriously think RLM was not the most significant of them when almost every single PT hater larps up their points and constantly references them all the time you're just deluding yourself.



Where do you get the idea that the reception was worsened over the years? This is your point to prove, as the traditional narrative is that the prequels were controversial among the fandom. The null hypothesis is that the prequels got a lot of heat from the fandom. It's on the revisionists to disprove this claim.

Not only that, but the point of those citations was to show a small sample of how the fandom (that is to say, the nerds on the Internet, among them Maddox, who helped define the geeky side of the earlier Internet) responded to the prequels. RLM gets the most attention, as I stated, because of their relative recency and the way they distilled the criticisms.

So again, disprove the point I made by actually finding proof that the traditional narrative is false. Don't just make claims that beg the question. Find actual proof.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 9, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> How am I taking anything out of context? You're convoluting your own posts by responding to points I wasn't even making.I wasn't talking about "Solo" or the new films. I was talking about the prequels.


Wrong


MartialHorror said:


> So if the reviews matter, does this mean that the sequels are in fact... better than the prequels? *Cause "The Last Jedi" and the other new films all got better "reviews" too.* As for toys, the prequels made for some cool toys... as the "Transformers" franchise tells us though, that doesn't make the movies good.


Try better at not mentioning them next time if you are gonna try to pull up that excuse.


MartialHorror said:


> You said the "reviews"... do you know what actual reviews are?


Do you?


MartialHorror said:


> I've also never disputed that the merchandising is failing. I maintain that if Star Wars targeted younger audiences, their merchandising sales would be fine. The prequels aimed more for kids; *the sequels aimed more for adults*, who are less likely to buy toys or go to theme parks.


Lol wrong the Sequels tried hard to appeal to nostalgic OT fans while at the same time trying to bring more people into the fold hence all the diversity casting to try to appeal more to females and minorities. Both have failed hard.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 9, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Where do you get the idea that the reception was worsened over the years? This is your point to prove, as the traditional narrative is that the prequels were controversial among the fandom. The null hypothesis is that the prequels got a lot of heat from the fandom. It's on the revisionists to disprove this claim.
> 
> Not only that, but the point of those citations was to show a small sample of how the fandom (that is to say, the nerds on the Internet, among them Maddox, who helped define the geeky side of the earlier Internet) responded to the prequels. RLM gets the most attention, as I stated, because of their relative recency and the way they distilled the criticisms.
> 
> So again, disprove the point I made by actually finding proof that the traditional narrative is false. Don't just make claims that beg the question. Find actual proof.



Does he realize how stupid and weak willed he makes out his own fandom to be, if a single video can influence the community so much that they think something is worse than it actually is?



NostalgiaFan said:


> Wrong
> 
> Try better at not mentioning them next time if you are gonna try to pull up that excuse.
> 
> ...



-- Ah, my bad. I'll give you that... even though my point was whether or not the prequels were poorly received. I only brought up the sequels when you started talking about "the reviews". 
-- It's a written or verbal evaluation of something. You said "if I looked at the reviews back in the day". Are we talking critics? Because that's all you're going to ever be able to prove, as most amateur reviews from the time period are probably lost, assuming they were even prevalent back then.
-- ... Yes, so as I said, they were appealing to adults... Nostalgic OT fans would be adults...


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 9, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Where do you get the idea that the reception was worsened over the years?


Where the hell do you get yours? just two random old ass internet sites?

Here are some of my sources if you need some counterpoints


Some of the reactions from fans right after seeing TPM




Pay attention to the fan reviews one made either right around it's release and a few years after




Another fan review close from the time being more positive.

Funny thing is that when TFA came out many fans on sites like the Force.net talked about how the very same effect with TPM would begin to happen with TFA where it's positivity would begin to unravel as the years went by, which is has with even some reviewers like Jeremy Jahns for example going from loving TFA to now hating it and feeling regretful for liking it.
6:40


To act as if I am just being a revisionist in thinking TPM reception got worse over the years is just being delusional.


Kuromaku said:


> This is your point to prove, as the traditional narrative is that the prequels were controversial among the fandom. The null hypothesis is that the prequels got a lot of heat from the fandom. It's on the revisionists to disprove this claim.


Based off of your few sources your point is looking less stable than mine.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 9, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> -- Ah, my bad. I'll give you that... even though my point was whether or not the prequels were poorly received. I only brought up the sequels when you started talking about "the reviews".


Yes of fans, not only the professional critics, and the overall sells in the merchandise being a factor in determining how much the fans hated it compared to liking it. You only thought of the professionals and toys, nothing else.


MartialHorror said:


> -- It's a written or verbal evaluation of something. You said "if I looked at the reviews back in the day". Are we talking critics? Because that's all you're going to ever be able to prove, as most amateur reviews from the time period are probably lost, assuming they were even prevalent back then.


Already posted some amateur along with live reactions so how about you start bringing your side of the case since you love to nag others about bringing there evidence?


MartialHorror said:


> -- ... Yes, so as I said, they were appealing to adults... Nostalgic OT fans would be adults...


Except they clearly were trying to get into the kids audience mostly like all the Star Wars films were hence their attempts at all the merchandise such as forcing out games like EaFront early to coincide with the films so it would turn out better profits. And considering all the political espionage and dark turns of the story at the end of the Prequels, to imply they were more kid friendly than any of the other films in the series is wrong, personal opinion of the execution aside they were just as if not darker in spots than most.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 9, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Yes of fans, not only the professional critics, and the overall sells in the merchandise being a factor in determining how much the fans hated it compared to liking it. You only thought of the professionals and toys, nothing else. Already posted some amateur along with live reactions so how about you start bringing your side of the case since you love to nag others about bringing there evidence?



That's not how merchandising works, dude... and what reviews are you talking about? If you know they're positive, then surely you can find a source from that era that shows fans were more happy with them than not. 

And did you seriously just post a Jeremy Jahns video? Didn't he hate the first two prequels? 

I don't need to provide evidence because I'm not really trying to make a point. Even you admit that there was a lot of hate for the prequels, even if you think RLM was responsible for it. 



> Except they clearly were trying to get into the kids audience mostly like all the Star Wars films were hence their attempts at all the merchandise such as forcing out games like EaFront early to coincide with the films so it would turn out better profits. And considering all the political espionage and dark turns of the story at the end of the Prequels, to imply they were more kid friendly than any of the other films in the series is wrong, personal opinion of the execution aside they were just as if not darker in spots than most.



Kids stuff in the 1990's and 1980's was different than they are now. Kids films could be violent and edgy. George Lucas even said they were for kids. "Revenge of the Sith" is the obvious exception because it's PG-13, as all the sequels have been.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 9, 2019)

Three old Internet sites to provide a sample, one of which was written by Maddox, one of the original e-celebs (in fact, he might well be one of the people who codified the term), another written by someone who attracted enough attention to get interviewed by the guy who did _The People v. George Lucas _(a movie that sprang from the nerd backlash), and YTMND, an old and now defunct site that in its heyday helped original several memes. RLM didn't arise out of a vacuum, the trend was there, and Stoklasa simply took what existed and put it in one place in an accessible way.

The point I made with these three is that they're prominent examples of the fandom getting pissy from way back, and as you admitted outright, as with TFA, TPM initially had some positive responses only to quickly turn into disdain by the time AotC shat the bed.

Take this review from IGN (back when it still had a teeny tiny bit of credibility) of II: 

Note that by that point, the writer is mentioning the backlash that has already set in by May 2002. That's not a gradual thing that RLM created, it's a monster that emerged once the initial high wore off. Plinkett didn't expose the prequels, all he did was preach to the choir in an organized way that took all the negative feelings and gave them focus. Stoklasa himself has noted this repeatedly, and one video couldn't have gained such traction unless said choir existed to the extent that it did.

A site like IMDB tends to collect rather charged reviews in the early days of a big movie's release (remember how _The Dark Knight_ was for a period listed as among the greatest films of all time?). Once the fanboys and shills move on, the consensus officially begins to form, although in some cases, it can take years.

Even _Fanboys_, which is affectionate to the franchise as a whole, ends with a joke hinting at what was to come in real life (the movie came out in 2009 after much trouble behind-the-scenes that delayed it from a 2007 release). And that's to say nothing of this bit of weirdness that I just recently learned about.

The traditional narrative has always been what it is, and it is up to the revisionists to prove otherwise for good reason: the fandom was ripped apart by the prequels because of their mixed reception. Now history finds itself repeating with the sequels, as a vocal extent of the fandom does the same to a base that was already divided by the prequels. In fact, I'd argue that this last point is the real reason why Disney should take note.

The original trilogy is beloved, but the prequels more mixed in its reception. What happens when you take such a divided core audience and divide it further, then add the increasingly mainstream nature of the Internet? You get the current situation.


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## JFF (Oct 9, 2019)

Zef said:


> Where can I read spoilers?



You mean, the possible story for Rise of Skywalker ?


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## Zef (Oct 9, 2019)

Yus


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## JFF (Oct 9, 2019)

Zef said:


> Yus



Be aware, that might be the real storyline. And there might be changes.

ACT I


*Spoiler*: __ 




*[The Past- Unknown Location].*

Luke is training Leia as a Jedi. Lightsabers are involved. Leia reveals to Luke that she is pregnant and Leia makes the decision to end her Jedi training due to the impending birth of her son.

*[The Present- The Resistance’s Jungle Base]*

Years later, Leia has picked up where her brother left off and has been helping Rey learn the ways of the Jedi. Rey is first seen doing some meditative/ “mental” Force training, but is struggling with it. In frustration, she asks Leia if she can do a physical training course instead. This is what we see Rey doing in the jungle forrest in the D23 First Look.(, ) It appears that Rey has more physical fortitude than she has mental strength.

*[Forrest planet bathed in red light]*

Supreme Leader Kylo Ren has been aware of a dark power behind his predecessor and former master, Snoke. Kylo has been spending his time as leader of the First Order with the purpose of locating this power. Generals Hux and Pryde have been following Kylo around on his quest and are beginning to get very frustrated with what they see as a fool’s errand. They see this as a waste of First Order time and resources. When we catch up with the villains of our story, Kylo is leading an assault on this planet with the purpose of finding Darth Vader’s wayfinder device. The device reveals coordinates within the Unknown Regions and Kylo is confident that this will reveal the source of Snoke’s power. Kylo Ren slaughters his way through the natives and is eventually led to "the oracle" who gives him the wayfinder.



*[Asteroid Base]*

We pick up with Finn and Poe on the Millennium Falcon, accompanied by a hand full of unfamiliar alien characters traveling to an icy asteroid base to meet with a First Order informant. This informant, an alien, is acting as a middle man between a First Order mole and our heroes. The First Order arrives and begins attacking the base. The assault causes forces our heroes to make a hasty exit by what was described to me as “light springing” away. Light springing involves making the jump to light speed without plotting a course or a predetermined destination. As we all remember, making the jump to light speed without precise calculations could have dire consequences such as ‘flying right through a star or bouncing too close to a supernova’. The Falcon makes a hand full of these springs to throw the First Order off their trail, but as a result they are forced to deal with the consequences of such a risky maneuver. After surviving the dangers of light springing, our heroes plot a course to the secret Resistance jungle base.

*[The Unknown Regions- Exogol]*

After obtaining Vader’s device Kylo travels to the place specified by the wayfinder. It takes him to the Unknown Regions and a dead planet of flat, black rock. I previously reported that the planet where Kylo finds Vader's wayfinder was called Exogol. Since then my understanding has evolved and I've been told that this planet actually bears that name. Kylo lands outside a giant cube, floating just above the ground and begins walking toward it. Kylo walks between the cube and the ground and once he reaches the center he discovers an elevator leading down below the planet's surface. He follows teh lift down and finds an old man, near death and lying in bed and being tended to by cloaked aids. My source believes these aids to be referred to as Sith Loyalists. The old man identifies himself as Darth Sideous. Kylo initially dismisses the old man, knowing that the Emperor had died over 30 years prior over the forest moon of Endor. Feeling that this must be a trick, Kylo claims that there must be some other explanation, such as this man being a clone. My sources specifically tell me that the Palpatine refutes the idea of him being a clone and affirms that he survived his fall. After his defeat at Endor, he left the known galaxy and traveled to the Unknown Regions to rebuild his Empire. Despite his skepticism, Palpatine begins to reel Kylo in and subsequently tells him of something known as a “Force Dyad”. The Force produces two incredibly strong users and when they unite together, both become stronger than either one could be on their own. Palpatine believes Kylo Ren and Rey to be the two halves of this dyad and shares this knowledge with Rey. (Note: I previously wrote that Palpatine wanted them to become “master and apprentice” since then this has been clarified to me as Palpatine seeking the two members of the Dyad) Palpatine claims that he seeks the Dyad because he is weak and dying and he wants the Dyad to rule together once he’s gone. Palpatine orders Kylo to bring Rey to him and turn her so that the Dyad will be a strong, unified force of darkness. Palpatine also reveals that he has been amassing an armada of Star Destroyers equipped with Death Star tech, each one capable of destroying a planet on its own. Generals Hux and Pryde are tasked with rounding up children in large numbers to train and staff his armada.

*[The Resistance’s Jungle Base]*

Finn and Poe return to the Resistance base bearing the knowledge obtained from their encounter with the First Order informant. The duo brings this knowledge to General Leia and tell her what they know about Kylo’s mission to the Unknown Regions, but without any leads to where he went or how he got there, the Resistance is at a dead end. Leia mentions that she has a contact who was seeking a link to the Unknown Regions long ago and may be willing to help. Leia dispatches the two of them along with Rey, Chewbacca, BB-8 and C-3PO to Passana to meet with her contact and see what help he may be able to provide.

*[Passana]*

When our heroes arrive on the planet, they discover that a giant festival is going on. What they thought would be an easy mission has now turned into a much more complicated affair. They attempt to lay low and to blend in. Unsurprisingly, Chewbacca struggles with blending in because it’s very difficult to hide a 7 foot tall wookiee from prying eyes. Rey encounters an alien in the crowds who takes a liking to her, presenting her with a handmade necklace as a gift. She is asked her name and she responds “Rey”. When asked her family name, she replies that she does not have one. At this time, Kylo establishes a connection with Rey through their bond. Their conversation ends with Kylo grabbing the necklace from around Rey’s neck. This necklace proves to be the key to the First Order discovering their location. After the connection ends, Rey warns her comrades that the First Order is on their way and that they must hurry to find Leia’s contact. It is at this point that instead of finding their contact, their contact reveals himself to them after having spotted an old wookiee friend of his out of the crowd. It’s Lando Calrissian.



Greetings and introductions are exchanged Lando tells them of a dagger that may help them find what they seek. Many years prior, Lando and Luke went in search of this dagger that was owned by a Sith loyalist named Ochie (spelling not confirmed). They tracked Ochie to Passana when the trail went cold. When met with the question of why he never left the planet after the search for Ochie and his dagger ended, Lando tells the team that he had a young child at the time of his and Luke’s quest. While they were out searching for the dagger, the First Order stole his child. After having failed to protect his child from the First Order, Lando and Luke parted ways and he stayed on Passana ever since. This story strikes a chord with Finn having been stolen from his own family at an incredibly young age as well. Lando points them in the direction of the last known coordinates of Ochie’s ship, where the trail went cold all those years ago, wishes them luck in succeeding where he failed all those years ago but decides to sit this one out.

Our heroes follow the trail that Lando pointed out to them and eventually they happen upon Ochie’s ship. When Rey sees the ship, it triggers some memories. It’s the same ship that we see leaving Jakku in Rey’s vision from TFA. Before the implications of this can sink in, the ground beneath them gives out and the crew gets sucked below the surface of the sand. They find themselves in a series of underground tunnels where they discover the remains of Ochie and the dagger that Lando and Luke sought after. Rey feels a very strong connection to this weapon, but can’t quite articulate it. The dagger has writing on it in a language that nobody can identify. It’s then handed over to 3PO who identifies the writing as a Sith language, but he reveals that he is unable to translate the writing due to restrictions in his programing. At this time, a plan is made to hack into C-3PO’s programming to bypass the restrictions. Poe mentions that he has an old contact that might be able to help them out. Chewbacca takes possession of the dagger and the group’s attention shifts to finding a way out of the caves. During their escape attempt, the team runs into a giant, very aggressive, sand worm (who presumably created the tunnels). A battle with the sand worm ensues and our heroes end up backed into a corner, preparing to meet their fate when Rey notices a detail. The worm is injured. In a display of previously unknown power, Rey is able to heal the worm’s injuries, satiating the worm and providing the heroes the chance they needed to escape.

Once they crew exits the cave system, they see a First Order Star Destroyer in the sky and know that Kylo Ren has found them. Once they realize this they (correctly) reason that the First Order would have already found the Falcon, making that plan of escape impossible. The Falcon is boarded and subsequently taken back to the Star Destroyer. In an act of desperation, the crew boards Ochie’s ship and attempt to get it working. It's on this ship that the crew discovers the new droid D-O. Rey senses that Kylo is coming for her, so she takes off on her own to confront him and buy her friends some time. (This is where the TIE Interceptor flip sequence from the first teaser takes place). While Kylo and Rey are engaged, the Knights of Ren and the First Order head for Ochie’s ship and our other heroes. Chewbacca splits off from the crew and attempts to delay the Knights, but it captured. The dagger is taken from him and he boards a First Order prisoner transport. Rey and Kylo both notice Chewbacca being taken captive and being brought to a transport ship during their confrontation. As the ship takes off, Rey shifts her attention from Kylo to her captured friend and begins to use the Force to stop the transport and pull it back to the ground. Kylo attempts to counteract this by pushing the ship away. Control over the ship becomes a battle between Kylo and Rey, much like their battle for Anakin’s lightsaber in TLJ. Kylo begins to gain the upper hand which angers Rey. In her frustration, lightning shoots from her hand, destroying the the transport ship and killing all its passengers. Devastated by what she just did, Rey collapses. While all this is transpiring, Poe, Finn, 3PO and BB-8 get Ochie’s ship in the air just in time to fly over to pick up a distraught Rey. With no Lando, no Falcon, no dagger and no Chewbacca, our heroes limp away from the desert planet.


----------



## JFF (Oct 9, 2019)

Act II


*Spoiler*: __ 




*ACT II*

*[Kijimi]*

The heroes of the Resistance make their way to the snow dusted planet of Kijimi to execute their plan to discover what secrets the dagger held. Despite not being in possession of the dagger anymore, 3PO tells the crew that he has the message committed to memory, so all hope is not lost. Poe tracks down an old contact of his, Zorri Bliss, who brings them to a small creature named Babbu Frik (again, spelling not confirmed) to hack 3PO’s programming to read the Sith language on the dagger. Frik tells everyone that he can unlock the message to be read, but in doing so C-3PO’s memory will be wiped. Still reeling from the loss of Chewbacca, the heroes argue about finding another way to get the job done, but in an act of self sacrifice C-3PO voluntarily consent to the modifications, knowing that (for all intents and purposes) the droid we’ve all known for years will essentially die. According to my sources, this scene is reportedly one of the most emotional in the film. Frik completes the hack and 3PO is now able to read the message inscribed on the dagger. (This action creates the red eyed C-3PO seen in the D23 footage) The translated text points them to the location of the Emperor’s own wayfinder. Having served his purpose, 3PO’s memory wipe begins and he shuts down. Once the memory wipe is complete, 3PO reboots with a completely empty memory.



While on Kijimi, Kylo initiates another mind bond with Rey to try and divine her location a second time. Kylo spends much of this time antagonizing Rey, some of this conversation revolves around her parents and the truth behind the dagger. It was once used to murder her parents. Many years ago, Ochee was sent to murder Rey’s parents who were trying to hide Rey from the galaxy. Ochee succeeded, leaving her parents as nobodies to be forgotten by that galaxy. Where Ochee failed was with Rey. He could not find her so he left her behind on Jakku. This is what Rey remembers, the ship leaving in the wake of her parent’s murder, not her parents abandoning her. Rey lashes out at Kylo during this bond and their lightsabers clash. Having gotten everything he needed from Rey during this session, he cuts off the bond. The Star Destroyers arrive on Kijimi after having followed our heroes there. As Kylo makes his way down to the planet, Zorri helps the Resistance escape by employing the use of something described to me as a “First Order passage device”, something that transmits a signal recognized as friendly to the First Order allowing the ship to pass uninterrupted. As our heroes make their escape, we see that Palpatine’s orders to Hux and Pryde are being carried out as children are being rounded up by soldiers of the First Order.

*[First Order Star Destroyer Above Kijimi]*

As the heroes escape on Ochee’s ship, the group makes the decision to use the passage device to board the Star Destroyer and recapture the Falcon. The device works as advertised and their ship lands without question. On board the Star Destroyer, the droids log on to the ship’s computer network to locate the Falcon, but in the process they discover that Chewbacca is still alive! He was on a different prisoner transport ship the entire time. The team hatches a plan for a rescue mission but Rey splits off, feeling as if something is calling to her. Meanwhile, the others find Chewie, but their rescue attempt fails and they are all taken captive. The calling Rey feels is caused by the dagger which draws her to it in Kylo’s living quarters.

*[Kijimi]*

Back on the surface of the planet and having grown tired of a fruitless search for Rey, Kylo initiates another Force bond with her. He discovers that she is on his Star Destroyer and a lightsaber duel breaks out between the two of them across two different locations. Kylo on the surface of Kijimi and Rey aboard the Star Destroyer. During this encounter, Kylo reveals that there is more to the story behind Rey and her parents. Rey is the granddaughter of Emperor Palpatine. He tells her that they are meant to join together on the dark side and that it’s all part of the Emperor’s plan. It’s clear that by this point in the story, Kylo is fully committed to what the Emperor’s mission for him. Once Rey and Kylo’s Force bond duel ends, Kylo makes his way back to his ship and Rey grabs the dagger and Chewbacca’s bandolier and bolts. Rey bumps into a fresh minded C-3PO along the way, hands him Chewbacca’s effects and the dagger and tells him to make a run for it while she stalls Kylo. When it appears that all is lost for our heroes that have been captured by the First Order, General Hux arrives and surprisingly not only allows them to escape, but points them in the direction of the Falcon. Hux was the mole within the First Order that Finn and Poe had received information from. Rey and the other heroes make a break for the Falcon and escape. After they leave, Kylo kills Hux for treason against the First Order. From this point forward, General Pryde is the sole commander of the First Order military. The Emperor contacts Pryde and demands that he use one of the specially equipped Star Destroyers to destroy Kijimi as an act of loyalty and Pryde complies.

*[Endor]*

The information gleaned from C-3PO’s translation of the dagger’s writing leads the location of a second wayfinder device which turns out to be aboard the wreckage of the second Death Star on the forest moon of Endor. Along their way to the wreckage, the crew comes in contact with a person named Jannah. It is revealed that she was press ganged into First Order service as a child, but eventually escaped and found her way to Endor where she has been living for some time. At this time it is revealed that she is the child that Lando lost to the First Order all those years ago. Jannah provides Rey with transportation to get to the Death Star wreckage

Rey makes her way to the Death Star wreckage and begins climbing her way through it’s twisted remains. One of my sources told me that this scene feels very reminiscent of the activities we see Rey doing when we are first introduced to her in TFA. She eventually reaches the Emperor’s throne room and discovers a chamber connecting to that room that contains the second wayfinder. Rey approaches the object and picks it up which induces visions of a possible future for herself. In this vision we see a version of Rey that has been enveloped by the dark side as seen in the D23 footage. My sources have also told me that the voice of Palpatine may be heard during this scene. The vision shocks Rey and she stumbles back into the throne room where Kylo Ren is waiting for her. Kylo takes possession of the Emperor’s wayfinder, destroys it and indicates to Rey that the only way to get another wayfinder is to go through him and take Vader’s. A lightsaber battle ensues, beginning in the throne room and eventually transitioning to exterior wreckage among the crashing waves.





*[The Resistance’s Jungle Base]*

Off in another part of the galaxy while Kylo and Rey clash sabers, a bright light in the universe begins to fade. Leia is dying. Before her death, we hear the voice of a familiar hero come to bid her farewell and pass on one last bit of knowledge…*

[Endor]*

As their battle rages on, both Kylo and Rey sense the death or their respective mother and mentor. They both react, but Rey recovers from the shock sooner and leverages the moment to take Kylo’s weapon from him and stab him through the chest with it. In the aftermath of their concluded duel, Rey declares to Kylo that she will never be like him and fall to the dark side. She exercises her newfound healing ability to save Kylo from death, steals his ship along with Vader’s wayfinder device aboard it and takes off, leaving her enemy behind.

After Rey leaves the forest moon, the remainder of the Resistance crew boards the Falcon, along with their newfound ally Jannah, having spent the duration of Rey and Kylo’s fight repairing the ship, and return to the hidden base on the jungle planet.

Broken and defeated, Kylo Ren remains on the wreckage of the second Death Star when he is visited by a vision of his father. Han speaks to his son, telling him that it’s never too late to return to return to the light and make the right choice. This conversation has a profound effect on Kylo and in a symbolic gesture, he discards his lightsaber and walks away from darkness and the identity of Kylo Ren.


----------



## JFF (Oct 9, 2019)

*ACT III*


*Spoiler*: __ 




*[Ahch-To]*

Following her experience on the Death Star, Rey returns to the island on Ahch-to. Throughout the course of the film she has given in to her aggression, nearly killed her friend by unleashing a stream of lightning on a ship, learned that she is the descendant of the Sith Lord who reduced the Jedi to numbers that they have yet to recover from even half a century later, saw a vision of herself as a servant of darkness and stabbed her enemy through the chest in anger. Her most recent encounter with Kylo was the last straw and Rey has now made the decision to follow the example set by Luke and exile herself on the island where the Jedi began. Rey scuttles the ship she stole from Kylo and throws the repaired lightsaber originally constructed by Anakin Skywalker in after it. A ghostly hand snatches the lightsaber out of thin air as it's being thrown. It's Luke Skywalker. Luke’s conversation with Rey is said to be encouraging yet realistically grim in tone. Luke knows first hand what it’s like to face Palpatine and that it’s not an easy task. Rey must confront Palpatine in the same way that Luke once had to confront Vader. Luke encourages Rey by telling her of the faith Leia had in her. She saw the potential within her and hoped that Rey would be able to restore balance to the Force once more just as Anakin once did. Rey supposedly asks to speak to Leia at one point, but Luke responds by telling her that Leia has not yet completed her training and he can not yet feel her distinctive consciousness within the Force. By the end of their conversation, Rey is reenergized for the seemingly insurmountable task that lies ahead of her and agrees to leave the island. Having destroyed the ship she used to come to Ahch-to, Luke raises his own X-wing (previously seen submerged in the coves of the island) to allow Rey to face Palpatine. In addition to the starfighter, Luke gifts Rey with a lightsaber that once belonged to Leia. He tells her how Leia left her saber with Luke when she stopped training and Luke kept it on him. He then points Rey to where he kept it safe in his hut. Rey boards the X-wing, armed with the coordinates for Palpatine’s location obtained from Vader’s wayfinder and leaves the planet.

*[The Resistance’s Jungle Base]*

After returning to the jungle base, several things happen. After seeing the sacrifice made by 3PO, R2 reveals that he has a backup of C-3PO’s memories in his archives and is able to restore the droid to a mostly whole state. My sources believe this backup memory to have been created sometime around the time of The Force Awakens. It’s an older C-3PO, but it’s better than no 3PO at all. Lando reenters the story, having changed his mind, coming to the Jungle Base and wanting to help however he can. It is at this time that Rey begins transmitting coordinates into the Unknown Regions obtained from the wayfinder to the Resistance. The Resistance mobilizes, readying themselves for the impending conflict.

*[The Unknown Regions- Exogol]*

Rey follows the coordinates found in the wayfinder to the same spot Kylo did earlier in the film. Rey lands outside the giant cube floating above the ground and makes her way through the same underground passages. The cube, composed of black rock, floats several meters above the ground and is so massive that one corner can not be seen in frame when the camera is at another. As Rey travels down into the depths of the planet, giant Sith statues can be seen. Where Rey and Kylo’s experiences begin to differ come in with where Rey discovers Palpatine. Palpatine is not in the same chamber that Kylo discovered him in, but in a huge arena, surrounded by Sith loyalists in dark cloaks in the grandstands. Palpatine is being supported by some kind of mechanical arm, possibly connecting him to life support machinery. Rey begins to confront Palpatine. During this conversation Sideous reportedly confirms Rey’s lineage and goads her on to take up a lightsaber and strike him down (very much like how he encouraged Luke to do the same thing 30 years prior), telling her that only in killing him will she gain the power needed to save her friends. Palpatine also apparently makes statements alluding to the belief that Vader could not betray Luke due to their familial bond and that same kind of bond would ultimately cause Rey to do what the Emperor wishes. During his taunts, the sickly Sith opens the roof of the stadium chamber revealing that the sky above is filled with Star Destroyers soon to be embroiled in conflict with the approaching Resistance. As the battle between the First Order/Empire and the Resistance begins to rage in the skies above them, Rey gives into the Emperor’s commands and decides to strike him down.

Through means that are still a bit foggy to me, Ben Solo was able to leave the wreckage of the Death Star and his former persona behind and travel to Exogol with the purpose of joining Rey to help her face down Sidious. Before leaving the Death Star wreckage, Ben abandoned Kylo’s lightsaber so now he’s walking into a warzone with no weapon. When he arrives on the planet, he encounters the Knights of Ren who are guarding the entrance to the arena where Rey and Sidious are. Ben reportedly dispatches each of them using only the Force. After doing this he enters the arena as Rey is about strike the Emperor using Leia’s blade. Ben grabs Anakin’s lightsaber and warns Rey to reconsider what she is about to do, to not kill the Emperor in anger. Seeing Ben arrive pleases Sideous. He then uses his power to bond them together and begins to syphon power from that bond and direct it into himself. As the power flows into him, the once silky and decrepit Palpatine stands tall and strong once again, restoring himself to a much younger, healthier state.

*[The Skies over Exogol]*

While all this action is happening on the ground, much more explosive events are happening in the sky. The Resistance and the First Order are locked in battle. The details I have on what happens during this branch of the plot are a bit sparse at the moment, but here’s what I have been told. The Resistance arrives and they are confronted with hundreds of Palpatine’s Sith Star Destroyers. Their goal is to take out the flagship of the destroyers, where General Pryde is located. Taking out the flagship will supposedly sever communications with the rest of the fleet and prevent them from being able to navigate the perils of the Unknown Regions. At one point during the battle Finn and Jannah (joined by others, but exactly who is not clear to me right now) land on Pryde’s flagship to destroy it. They recognize this as essentially a suicide mission but Finn and Jannah in particular see the price they may have to pay as wort it to prevent more children from being abducted like they once were. One of my sources described it to me like a D-Day type mission for the Resistence where they attempt to land on to a moving Star Destroyer amidst the battle scene.

Having returned to full strength, Palpatine then shoots lightning into Ben, forcing him to fall into a bottomless abyss, never to be seen again. Sideous then shoots lightning into the sky at Resistance ships. He reportedly continues to make statements about how Rey will join him. In defiance of this, Rey grabs both Anakin’s and Leia’s lightsabers and Palpatine turns his wrath on her. It’s lightsaber vs. lightning at this point and when it seems like all hope is lost for Rey, the spectors of Luke and Leia come to her aid. They jointly work toward overpowering the Emperor, deflecting his lightning back toward himself, killing him and unleashing an explosion powerful enough to make the arena start to crumble around them. Darth Sideous, the last of the Sith Lords, is finally dead. At this same time Finn and Jannah complete their mission and succeed in destroying Pryde’s flagship. The two are prepared to go down with the ship, but are rescued at the last second by the Falcon. Rey escapes the crumbling arena.

*[The Resistance’s Jungle Base]*

Having won the day, the survivors of the battle regroup at the jungle base and celebrate. What follows is apparently celebration across the galaxy, once again mirroring what is seen at the end of Return of the Jedi.

*[Tatooine]*

For the end of the film, the heroes then travel to where everything began. The desolate, sandswept planet of Tatooine. Between defeating Sidious and this moment, Rey has disassembled Anakin and Leia’s lightsabers and used their components to construct one of her own that I’m told contains a golden/yellow blade. Rey buries the leftover pieces beneath the Tatooine sands at the site of the Lars homestead. As Rey turns to join Finn, Poe, Jannah, Chewie, R2, 3PO, BB-8 and D-0, a stranger calls out to her. The stranger apparently speaks of how nobody has been seen around this land for a very long time and asks Rey for her name. This is the second time in the film that this question has been posed to her, but unlike her response on Pasaana, Rey has decided who she is. She gives the name Rey Skywalker to the stranger, adopting the name of her masters and revealing the primary meaning of the title of the film. As Rey begins to rejoin her friends, she catches a glimpse of some familiar glowing figures, watching over her. The assembly of heroes look off into the distance at the horizon of the desert planet and watch twin suns set on a universe filled with hope.

The End.





I point out -- its maybe fanfiction ... but I wonder. It fits the trailer images. 

The last trailer my tell. If that leak fits contents of the trailer.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 9, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> That's not how merchandising works, dude


Yes it does, people don't go out and buy shit for things they do not like or don't care for in such quantities as they usually did for Star Wars.


MartialHorror said:


> and what reviews are you talking about? If you know they're positive, then surely you can find a source from that era that shows fans were more happy with them than not.


I literally did in the post right above the one you quoted. Not my problem if you can't pay attention.


MartialHorror said:


> And did you seriously just post a Jeremy Jahns video? Didn't he hate the first two prequels?


Oh so you only paid attention to that post to look for shit to snip and move the goal post to something else, typical. I was talking about fan reception from the time of the Prequels released and how that changed and was comparing that to the Sequels particularly with TFA with Jahns own view changing. Don't know how long he held his opinions on ep 1 and 2 when they came out and don't care since I was not even using him for that one example involving , I had others for that.


MartialHorror said:


> I don't need to provide evidence because *I'm not really trying to make a point*.


And that is why your posts have contributed virtually nothing other than and excuse for you to run your mouth. At least Kuro is trying to give out sources, you have zero shit to add. Since you have made it so clear, I will ignore you for now.


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## Zef (Oct 9, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Well Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter would explain her proficiency with the Force 




Other then that....meh


I feel like they need another movie besides 9 to wrap everything up in a satisfactory way after 8's blunder.

I ended up caring about none of these characters after two whole movies.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 9, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Three old Internet sites to provide a sample, one of which was written by Maddox, one of the original e-celebs (in fact, he might well be one of the people who codified the term), another written by someone who attracted enough attention to get interviewed by the guy who did _The People v. George Lucas _(a movie that sprang from the nerd backlash), and YTMND, an old and now defunct site that in its heyday helped original several memes. RLM didn't arise out of a vacuum, the trend was there, and Stoklasa simply took what existed and put it in one place in an accessible way.


And yet none of them have been quoted, referenced, or valued by PT critics as much as RLM. You keep acting as if I am making them out to be this sudden force that shook the very core of the debate on the Prequels when even my original post never made any mention of that. I already said there were others, RLM was simply the most significant and that is a fact.


Kuromaku said:


> The point I made with these three is that they're prominent examples of the fandom getting pissy from way back, and as you admitted outright, as with TFA, TPM initially had some positive responses only to quickly turn into disdain by the time AotC shat the bed.


I already stated that. TPM was mixed with mostly positive feedback, AOTC was mixed and over time became negative, but it never reached the heights of hatred it got in the years that followed. And ROTS even after both of those was held up as being good by many in the community even by some who were intensely hating the Prequels. 


Kuromaku said:


> Take this review from IGN (back when it still had a teeny tiny bit of credibility) of II:


And explain to me when IGN was ever credible? Even before the Memes about the site came on I don't remember it being anything else but your typical gaming news site, not something that held the voice of a movie fandom. If you were using fan reviews to gauge the view points of the fandom at the time it would be more reliable but instead you give me just a single article from a gaming journalist? I'm not gonna pretend shit like IMBD is trustworthy but that's why I went for regular user reviews instead to do as I said, see what the views of the common fans of the time were.


Kuromaku said:


> Note that by that point, the writer is mentioning the backlash that has already set in by May 2002. That's not a gradual thing that RLM created, it's a monster that emerged once the initial high wore off.


Once again you really have an issue with putting words in my mouth thinking I ever stated RLM created the hate when I said it grew to the extent it did years later after with RLM being one of the more cited examples. 


Kuromaku said:


> A site like IMDB tends to collect rather charged reviews in the early days of a big movie's release (remember how _The Dark Knight_ was for a period listed as among the greatest films of all time?). Once the fanboys and shills move on, the consensus officially begins to form, although in some cases, it can take years.


Dude, I have been literally saying that shit from the get go, why are you acting as if I ever said it was never negative at all? I said outright it was mixed and than got worse over time like you just repeated.


Kuromaku said:


> Even _Fanboys_, which is affectionate to the franchise as a whole, ends with a joke hinting at what was to come in real life (the movie came out in 2009 after much trouble behind-the-scenes that delayed it from a 2007 release).


So again a film that came out at least two years after the last Prequel film? Not seeing how that goes against my argument.


Kuromaku said:


> And that's to say nothing of this bit of weirdness that I just recently learned about.


We saw this same kind of shit with TFA just a year or two after it's release and that was back when people were raving about it so not seeing much difference.


Kuromaku said:


> The traditional narrative has always been what it is, and it is up to the revisionists to prove otherwise for good reason


Than prove it, revisionist.


Kuromaku said:


> the fandom was ripped apart by the prequels because of their mixed reception. Now history finds itself repeating with the sequels, as a vocal extent of the fandom does the same to a base that was already divided by the prequels. In fact, I'd argue that this last point is the real reason why Disney should take note.


Except it is clearly not a minority as the large drop of TLJ and box office bomb of Solo along with almost all merchandise related with Star Wars dropping shows. Even with the Prequels at it's worse the fans were never that torn apart as to not go out and buy and see shit related to Star Wars and it was still one of the top selling brands of all time. If you really believe the Prequels had it as bad as the Sequels do now, that's on you to prove otherwise, and based on the arguments I have heard otherwise, I am in doubt of being convinced.


Kuromaku said:


> The original trilogy is beloved, but the prequels more mixed in its reception. What happens when you take such a divided core audience and divide it further, then add the increasingly mainstream nature of the Internet? You get the current situation.


Except the Sequels went all out of their way to essentially be everything those "torn" OT fans and others wanted and sold to massive numbers with people praising the shit of TFA and screaming at anyone who bothered to criticize it only for TLJ to come out and completely revert that trend right back into depths lower than the SW franchise has ever been. TPM was mixed to positive with people overall thinking it was good at the time while almost everyone and their mother was showering TFA with praise. The fact it all almost went sour when TLJ hit theaters and landed in the first SW film to bomb in the form of Solo is a just a show of how badly that fucked up compared to the Prequels.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 9, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Yes it does, people don't go out and buy shit for things they do not like or don't care for in such quantities as they usually did for Star Wars.



I bought toys for the prequels. I've told you before. Shitty character or not, Darth Maul makes for one cool toy. Kids are easy to market towards. It's... once again... why "Transformers" is really a thing.



> I literally did in the post right above the one you quoted. Not my problem if you can't pay attention.
> 
> Oh so you only paid attention to that post to look for shit to snip and move the goal post to something else, typical. I was talking about fan reception from the time of the Prequels released and how that changed and was comparing that to the Sequels particularly with TFA with Jahns own view changing. Don't know how long he held his opinions on ep 1 and 2 when they came out and don't care since I was not even using him for that one example involving , I had others for that.



You know, those types of fan reaction clips are usually edited based on sound bytes. Plus, when you go see a movie in its debuting weekend... especially something like Star Wars...  you're often running off hype. It's why the prequels have an "A-" on cinemascore, which is based around polls coming out of the theaters ("TLJ" has an A, by the way). It's why you'll have certain movies get standing ovations at film festivals, only to receive lukewarm to perhaps even negative reviews upon release.

If you look at the comments, most of them are laughing at the reactions. One person even points out that "Batman Vs Superman" had a similar reaction. 



> And that is why your posts have contributed virtually nothing other than and excuse for you to run your mouth. At least Kuro is trying to give out sources, you have zero shit to add. Since you have made it so clear, I will ignore you for now.



Running my mouth, you're the one foaming from it. I asked you a question and freaked out, as you normally do.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 10, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> And yet none of them have been quoted, referenced, or valued by PT critics as much as RLM. You keep acting as if I am making them out to be this sudden force that shook the very core of the debate on the Prequels when even my original post never made any mention of that. I already said there were others, RLM was simply the most significant and that is a fact.



RLM became the most significant because they preached to the choir while distilling everything within that particular movement. That's the point.



> I already stated that. TPM was mixed with mostly positive feedback, AOTC was mixed and over time became negative, but it *never reached the heights of hatred it got in the years that followed*. And ROTS even after both of those was held up as being good by many in the community even by some who were intensely hating the Prequels



Can you prove that? Because right now you're begging the question by claiming that the narrative wasn't there since 2002. In fact, that happens to be the core of this debate. The traditional narrative is what it is, and refuting the rightness of the narrative, not refuting its existence, which is not debatable, is the point of what you need to be doing.



> And explain to me when IGN was ever credible? Even before the Memes about the site came on I don't remember it being anything else but your typical gaming news site, not something that held the voice of a movie fandom. If you were using fan reviews to gauge the view points of the fandom at the time it would be more reliable but instead you give me just a single article from a gaming journalist? I'm not gonna pretend shit like IMBD is trustworthy but that's why I went for regular user reviews instead to do as I said, see what the views of the common fans of the time were.



IGN in those days was to a tiny extent, capable of some legitimate geek writing for geeks. If someone tuned in enough to pop culture can pick up on the mood in a fandom despite being in the mainstream, that illustrates just how prominent the negative voices had become in that period.



> Once again you really have an issue with putting words in my mouth thinking I ever stated RLM created the hate when I said it grew to the extent it did years later after with RLM being one of the more cited examples



The problem once again is that your claim begs the question. RLM was a cited example because, as I have stated time and again, they distilled the criticisms of the movies and put them in one place. Why go to many a fan site or article when you have a single video for your convenience?



> So again a film that came out at least two years after the last Prequel film? Not seeing how that goes against my argument.



The reason I included _Fanboys_ is because it was written before Plinkett came out with his famous video on TPM. It indicates the general mood in pop culture at the time. In other words, the sentiment existed as a given before RLM was a thing.



> We saw this same kind of shit with TFA just a year or two after it's release and that was back when people were raving about it so not seeing much difference.



That example proves that reception to the film became hostile rather quickly instead of transforming with RLM's video. You said that RLM didn't create the hate, but have thus far failed to accept that the hate already existed long before 2009.



> Than prove it, revisionist.



I'm afraid that's my line. The narrative exists, and it was there for years. You can try and fail to prove it doesn't, but that would be a pointless endeavor. Rather, it is your job to prove the narrative mistaken.



> Except it is clearly not a minority



Where did I say "minority"? I said that there was a vocal extent.



> Except the Sequels went all out of their way to essentially be everything those "torn" OT fans and others wanted and sold to massive numbers with people praising the shit of TFA and screaming at anyone who bothered to criticize it only for TLJ to come out and completely revert that trend right back into depths lower than the SW franchise has ever been. TPM was mixed to positive with people overall thinking it was good at the time while almost everyone and their mother was showering TFA with praise. The fact it all almost went sour when TLJ hit theaters and landed in the first SW film to bomb in the form of Solo is a just a show of how badly that fucked up compared to the Prequels.



Doesn't disprove my argument though. The base was shattered by the prequels, but there was enough hope and enough remaining fans to keep at it. It's why the prequels made money despite not having quite the same popularity, hence why the originals made more adjusted for inflation. The problem with Disney is that they further damaged this remainder, and by that point, the fandom was too tattered to ignore, even if TLJ s.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 10, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> The reason I included _Fanboys_ is because it was written before Plinkett came out with his famous video on TPM. It indicates the general mood in pop culture at the time. In other words, the sentiment existed as a given before RLM was a thing.
> .



I had forgotten about that one, where the punchline to the entire movie was... "What if it sucks?" 

THAT REMINDS ME!!!

now that I think about it, there was a "Clerks" animated TV series that mocks The Phantom Menace... According to wikipedia, the episodes were produced in the year 2000 (although some weren't aired until 2002). 


It's especially amusing because I seem to remember Kevin Smith being a fan of "The Phantom Menace"...

So it was already becoming a punchline even before "Attack of the Clones" was out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 10, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> SNIP


All that time of you regurgitating baseless claims and you brought nothing concrete besides.... a Clerks episode. Really got desperate for anything didn't you? Once again you add nothing.




Kuromaku said:


> RLM became the most significant because they preached to the choir while distilling everything within that particular movement. That's the point.


They preached to the loud minority who already despised the Prequels, most were fine with them overall beforehand.


Kuromaku said:


> Can you prove that? Because right now you're begging the question by claiming that the narrative wasn't there since 2002. In fact, that happens to be the core of this debate. The traditional narrative is what it is, and refuting the rightness of the narrative, not refuting its existence, which is not debatable, is the point of what you need to be doing.


>refuting it's existence

When once again I never stated they were not hated, hence the mixed reception I mentioned. Have you not paid any attention at all to my posts?


>implying the Prequels overwhelmingly being seen as bad was the common views of all fans

That is what I was arguing against and what you have failed to prove as your sources are one off examples of singular individuals without anything close to audience feedback. I brought up at least two examples for mine with the user reviews of TPM and live reactions from audience members, why can't you do the same?


Kuromaku said:


> IGN in those days was to a tiny extent, capable of some legitimate geek writing for geeks. If someone tuned in enough to pop culture can pick up on the mood in a fandom despite being in the mainstream, that illustrates just how prominent the negative voices had become in that period.


These two posts have literally zero backing and tell me nothing but your own opinion on IGN back in the day. Where is the actual proof of IGN being considered "legit"? 


Kuromaku said:


> The problem once again is that your claim begs the question. RLM was a cited example because, as I have stated time and again, they distilled the criticisms of the movies and put them in one place. Why go to many a fan site or article when you have a single video for your convenience?


Gee I don't know, maybe it's because the loud minority were glad to have someone tell them exactly what they wanted to hear? Why the hell would that suddenly mean the Prequels were always hated to the extant they were in the years after said reviews from RLM and other critics when it actually goes along with my argument that the hate got heated up years after the Prequels release?


Kuromaku said:


> The reason I included _Fanboys_ is because it was written before Plinkett came out with his famous video on TPM. *It indicates the general mood in pop culture at the time*. In other words, the sentiment existed as a given before RLM was a thing.


Which is funny because despite being made on a cheap budget of 3 mill it failed to get even 1 mill and failed at the box office, not really a leading example of the pop culture at the time. And again, you keep acting as if I believe Plinkett alone is responsible for the negativity which has never been my point, Fanboys even before it's official release was made two years after the last Prequel, which is my point that their reception started getting worse over the years.


Kuromaku said:


> That example proves that reception to the film became hostile rather quickly instead of transforming with RLM's video. You said that RLM didn't create the hate, but have thus far failed to accept that the hate already existed long before 2009.


Wrong, I did accept the hate existed, as a loud minority. You are the one shoving in this narrative that I refuse to accept it ever happened before RLM which is blatantly false as my posts never said this.


Kuromaku said:


> I'm afraid that's my line. The narrative exists, and it was there for years. You can try and fail to prove it doesn't, but that would be a pointless endeavor. Rather, it is your job to prove the narrative mistaken.


Sorry home slice but you forgot the part where you proved me wrong as your evidence has left much to be desired along with you putting words in my mouth to make your point seem better which is both disingenuous and poor debating.


Kuromaku said:


> Where did I say "minority"? I said that there was a vocal extent.


Dude you outright stated that the fandom was "ripped apart" and that it was an explanation for the Sequels poor performance as if the SW films had lost half it's fans and that is what lead to TLJ dropping hard and Solo bombing. TFA being a massive hit and even the spin-off Rouge One hitting a mill at least proves that was far from the case, this all has to do with TLJ shitting the bed so hard it killed whatever momentum TFA gave to the franchise, harder than any of the Prequels.


Kuromaku said:


> Doesn't disprove my argument though. The base was shattered by the prequels, but there was enough hope and enough remaining fans to keep at it. It's why the prequels made money despite not having quite the same popularity, hence why the originals made more adjusted for inflation. The problem with Disney is that they further damaged this remainder, and by that point, the fandom was too tattered to ignore, even if TLJ s.


Yes it does, your pretentious "hope in the face of being shattered" and other overly dramatic nonsense does not change the fact fans did not just give up on the franchise and kept supporting it in all it's media for years even after the Prequels hit the screen. They have given up on the ST and just "making a buck at the box office" does not change the fact TLJ fell harder from TFA than any other SW sequel ever has from the film before it and Solo was the very first to outright bomb. AOTC never did the franchise in that bad in comparison so you have to be really full of it to think the Prequels compare in anyway.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 10, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> All that time of you regurgitating baseless claims and you brought nothing concrete besides.... a Clerks episode. Really got desperate for anything didn't you? Once again you add nothing.



To be fair, that Clerks episode adds to my point about the fandom's culture at the time.



> They preached to the loud minority who already despised the Prequels, most were fine with them overall beforehand.



Again, you're begging the question. Is this really true? Can you prove it?



> >implying the Prequels overwhelmingly being seen as bad was the common views of all fans
> 
> That is what I was arguing against and what you have failed to prove as your sources are one off examples of singular individuals without anything close to audience feedback. I brought up at least two examples for mine with the user reviews of TPM and live reactions from audience members, why can't you do the same?



Better yet, let's go look at . Note the promise shown there, and now look at how a vocal extent of the fandom has responded. TFA was TPM all over again. Initally decent reception that waned over time. Look at the Google results if you look for "the phantom menace sucks" .

Notice that those are examples of surprisingly decent early feedback for the first film in a trilogy that have sparked controversy among the fandom. Yet neither you nor I would argue that it isn't a source of controversy. Again, I am showing you the actual culture surrounding reception to the prequels, and highlighting how your sources were flawed to say the least. The Internet back then was not as mainstream, so when you got articles and sites decrying the movies, you got the real nerds. Is the reaction to the sequels any different? Because last I checked, the average viewer either liked the movies or doesn't think much of them, hence the overall mixed to positive reception outside the core fandom, similar to the prequels.



> These two posts have literally zero backing and tell me nothing but your own opinion on IGN back in the day. Where is the actual proof of IGN being considered "legit"



Nostalgia, let me ask you a question: what proof do you actually need to disprove your point? I know that my argument's ultimate disproving is evidence suggesting that the prequels did not receive a controversial reception from the fandom. But what is yours? What are your conditions, because so far, you've done the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and denying the validity of any sources I throw your way. There has to be a condition for failure, otherwise an argument is invalid.

Now check out  all the way back from 2006 made by yet another geek.

Also, check out this quote from  tangentially related to the franchise:



> “Those two idiots are not only the biggest, most pathetic geeks in the world, but they are also going to be sorely disappointed when _Episode II_ sucks indescribable dick,” wrote one poster on a movie Web site.



This was the Internet's mood, the mood of the average geek who probably was into _Star Wars_. Expecting the worst after TPM.



> Gee I don't know, maybe it's because the loud minority were glad to have someone tell them exactly what they wanted to hear?



Could the same be said for all the online voices that have popped up since then given that the sequel trilogy isn't hated all that much by the mainstream audience? We're not arguing about the mainstream though. We're arguing about the "minority" that is the actual fandom.

If it was just a loud minority of no consequence though, then do you honestly believe the video would have caught on? These were actual SW fans, and that it caught fire as it did means that Plinkett managed to tap into a potent vein. Otherwise, the videos would have fallen to the wayside like most have.



> Why the hell would that suddenly mean the Prequels were always hated to the extant they were in the years after said reviews from RLM and other critics when it actually goes along with my argument that the hate got heated up years after the Prequels release?



Because you've implied that it's RLM behind all this. The hate was building for years beforehand, Plinkett merely exploited it.



> Which is funny because despite being made on a cheap budget of 3 mill it failed to get even 1 mill and failed at the box office, not really a leading example of the pop culture at the time.



What does that have to do with anything? It failed because it wasn't that good and not of interest to the mainstream audience given its niche subject matter, not because it failed to say what the fandom was thinking.



> Wrong, I did accept the hate existed, as a loud minority. You are the one shoving in this narrative that I refuse to accept it ever happened before RLM which is blatantly false as my posts never said this.



Then what point are you making? The hate existed, and yet it was somehow a loud minority that Plinkett turned into a majority? Plinkett put all the criticisms in one succinct place, of course he's cited. But the hate? That's always been there, and all the revisionism in the world can't change that.



> Dude you outright stated that the fandom was "ripped apart" and that it was an explanation for the Sequels poor performance as if the SW films had lost half it's fans and that is what lead to TLJ dropping hard and Solo bombing. TFA being a massive hit and even the spin-off Rouge One hitting a mill at least proves that was far from the case, this all has to do with TLJ shitting the bed so hard it killed whatever momentum TFA gave to the franchise, harder than any of the Prequels.
> 
> Yes it does, your pretentious "hope in the face of being shattered" and other overly dramatic nonsense does not change the fact fans did not just give up on the franchise and kept supporting it in all it's media for years even after the Prequels hit the screen. They have given up on the ST and just "making a buck at the box office" does not change the fact TLJ fell harder from TFA than any other SW sequel ever has from the film before it and Solo was the very first to outright bomb. AOTC never did the franchise in that bad in comparison so you have to be really full of it to think the Prequels compare in anyway.



Yeah, I can. It's nice that you are crafting a narrative here, but mine about the sequels has yet to be disproven. I never said that TLJ didn't mess things up. What I said was that the prequels damaged the fanbase, and that Disney took a sledgehammer to what remained, damaging it enough for the extent of it to become more visible. Again, look carefully at the box office numbers in the States. The prequels didn't do as well adjusted for inflation, because some damage was done. But it took Disney to finally screw the pooch.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 10, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Because you've implied that it's RLM behind all this. The hate was building for years beforehand, Plinkett merely exploited it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He thinks Star Wars fans are gullible idiots who can be tricked into hating movies based on a single review.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 12, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> To be fair, that Clerks episode adds to my point about the fandom's culture at the time.


And the examples I posted showed another picture and a single show on TV that only ran for like 6 episodes got canceled in the same year it came out does not tell me it was popular enough to be an example of the fandom at large. Martial has done nothing besides that, the rest are just his own self opinionated views and he has brought nothing to the discussion.


Kuromaku said:


> Again, you're begging the question. Is this really true? Can you prove it?


I have already posted some examples before and can just name a few more examples






All these links use the wayback machine to show us the IMDB user ratings of each Prequel just a few months after they came out. Ratings like I said, ranged from mixed to positive.


Kuromaku said:


> Better yet, let's go look at . Note the promise shown there, and now look at how a vocal extent of the fandom has responded. TFA was TPM all over again. Initally decent reception that waned over time.


Remind me of the point here I did not already make on my own? 90% of the reviews on there were from 2015 when the film was released and getting praised as "saving" the franchise. Current opinion, especially if ROS disappoints like TLJ is only going to get worse in the years that follow.


Kuromaku said:


> Look at the Google results if you look for "the phantom menace sucks" .
> Notice that those are examples of surprisingly decent early feedback for the first film in a trilogy that have sparked controversy among the fandom. Yet neither you nor I would argue that it isn't a source of controversy. Again, I am showing you the actual culture surrounding reception to the prequels, and highlighting how your sources were flawed to say the least. The Internet back then was not as mainstream, so when you got articles and sites decrying the movies, you got the real nerds.


> an 2007 Urban Dictionary page
> articles dating to the year 2008
> an obscure wiki page that has been getting edited to the present day
> same single individual articles that do no tell us anything about the fandom at large
> "THE REAL NERDS"

If just some random articles are enough for your argument I got plenty.






Mostly positive reviews from around the time TPM came out and few years after. Obviously there were negative feedback like I already said of the film being mixed but along with the user scores from places like IMBD, videos showing the initial reaction to TPM release, and other articles around the time my point of this film and the Prequels not being entirely negative still stand.


Kuromaku said:


> Is the reaction to the sequels any different? Because last I checked, the average viewer either liked the movies or doesn't think much of them, hence the overall mixed to positive reception outside the core fandom, similar to the prequels.


Say that to the mediocre to terrible merchandise sells of books, comics, games, toys, and underperforming to than flop at the box office from the last two SW films. Nowhere did I ever hear of the Prequels hurting SW that bad to the point shit outside the movies was taking a hit anywhere like that.


Kuromaku said:


> Nostalgia, let me ask you a question: what proof do you actually need to disprove your point?


All I have asked for is a simple answer. When has IGN ever been considered a reliable site for film reviews? When has it ever been a good indication on the general feelings of fandoms even as far back as the early millennium?

All you have given me at this point is your word and your word alone. Based off your attitude and arguments in the past, why should I only take your word alone at face value without any evidence to back it up? If you find it so hard to give proof, maybe it's because you are arguing a point you can't prove?


Kuromaku said:


> Now check out  all the way back from 2006 made by yet another geek.


Yes yes I already saw that in the searches you gave me, just another review by a single individual just like the multitudes of articles I already posted above. Does not change much when I already have shown plenty of articles close in time that veer on the other side.


Kuromaku said:


> Also, check out this quote from  tangentially related to the franchise:
> 
> 
> 
> This was the Internet's mood, the mood of the average geek who probably was into _Star Wars_. Expecting the worst after TPM.


Your proof that most Star Wars fan were very upset and (based off the content of that specific article) deranged over their hate of TPM during the time of it's release, is some forgotten fan article made(once again) in 2007?

I think you are really pushing it here.


Kuromaku said:


> Could the same be said for all the online voices that have popped up since then given that the sequel trilogy isn't hated all that much by the mainstream audience? We're not arguing about the mainstream though. We're arguing about the "minority" that is the actual fandom.


>the Star Wars Fandom
>one of if not the largest fandom of all time
>not mainstream

Uh do you even know what "mainstream" even means? and what proof have you that the sequels are not hated by the "mainstream" when evidence has pointed more in the opposite directions for all the various reasons I and others have already shown throughout out this thread and before already?


Kuromaku said:


> If it was just a loud minority of no consequence though, then do you honestly believe the video would have caught on? These were actual SW fans, and that it caught fire as it did means that Plinkett managed to tap into a potent vein. Otherwise, the videos would have fallen to the wayside like most have.


"actual Star Wars fans" and what the hell is that even supposed to mean in this context? that only those who hated the Prequels were real fans? Would sound like the type of Elitism that made PT haters into looking like such douchebags to everyone else.

And what else compared to Plinkett at the time? A whole hour into ripping on one movie, knowing how to edit competently and at least keep the review entertaining instead of boring like most videos were back in the day, putting so much time and effort into it alone would draw people into it and start a following. It's completely understandable why he made it big when the review came out, Doug Walker did it in his reviews years ago ripping into films that were not even disliked but enjoyed by most people before and still did after and he got tons of viewers and subscribers for it. people just enjoy reviews that inform them while being entertaining. It just so happens that RLM fans are far more obnoxious about it than most.


Kuromaku said:


> Because you've implied that it's RLM behind all this.


Wrong. Read my post again, I said there were others and never even mentioned RLM until several posts after I started arguing with Martial about the reception. And being mixed implies negativity was there from the get go, I simply stated it veered to the positive more often than not. Don't go putting words in my mouth.


Kuromaku said:


> What does that have to do with anything? It failed because it wasn't that good and not of interest to the mainstream audience given its niche subject matter, not because it failed to say what the fandom was thinking.


The fact it went completely under the radar and was barely seen by anyone even in the giant of a fandom like Star Wars shows me it was not close to being the voice of the fandom like you are trying to make it out to be.


Kuromaku said:


> Then what point are you making? The hate existed, and yet it was somehow a loud minority that Plinkett turned into a majority? Plinkett put all the criticisms in one succinct place, of course he's cited. But the hate? That's always been there, and all the revisionism in the world can't change that.


I'd ask what the hell kind of point you are making since all you have been doing is purposely misinterpreting my point to paint me as a revisionist from the get go while making shit up and trying to pretend I said things I never said. I never once said the haters became the majority, they were always a minority when TPM came out and were simply more vocal about it, nothing more.


Kuromaku said:


> Yeah, I can. It's nice that you are crafting a narrative here, but mine about the sequels has yet to be disproven.


Your narrative is already getting disproven by everything related to the franchise nowadays.


Kuromaku said:


> I never said that TLJ didn't mess things up. What I said was that the prequels damaged the fanbase, and that Disney took a sledgehammer to what remained, damaging it enough for the extent of it to become more visible.


Which is wrong because it was not "what remained" that got hit by the damage TLJ made, almost every SW fan was pissed off about TLJ and Disney's treatment of the franchise which effected not only the people buying tickets for the movie but anyone who just liked buying and collecting shit for Star Wars which never happened with the Prequels at their worst.


Kuromaku said:


> Again, look carefully at the box office numbers in the States. The prequels didn't do as well adjusted for inflation, because some damage was done. But it took Disney to finally screw the pooch.


How about you look at the numbers yourself and see how much worse TLJ did even compared to AOTC in terms of domestic tickets drops from the main film proceeding it.



With how much annoyance this shit has been to type with this is going to be my last word on this since I have had a hard enough week as it is and I just want to enjoy my two days off now.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 12, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> And the examples I posted showed another picture and a single show on TV that only ran for like 6 episodes got canceled in the same year it came out does not tell me it was popular enough to be an example of the fandom at large. Martial has done nothing besides that, the rest are just his own self opinionated views and he has brought nothing to the discussion.



They are very relevant, since they're a sample of how the general fan reception was.

Nostalgia, if it's examples you want, well, here are some more:

Remember the hate surrounding Jar Jar Binks, who achieved a notoriety originally seen with Scrappy Doo? You don't get that from a fan base that isn't feeling too critical. No one blinked at eye at all this, and these references came in the mainstream, because the fandom was leaking, just like how South Park criticized TFA. Remember Batman Beyond?  was in 1999. Or .

Or maybe you'd like this fan-made video that may or may not have parodied the popular sentiment, but was  that even Mike Stoklasa had to say it was too much.

Or even  that came out before Plinkett (in fact, it may have been part of what contributed to Stoklasa's creative decisions)?



> All these links use the wayback machine to show us the IMDB user ratings of each Prequel just a few months after they came out. Ratings like I said, ranged from mixed to positive.



How does that go against the points I made about IMDB reviews?



> > an 2007 Urban Dictionary page
> > articles dating to the year 2008
> > an obscure wiki page that has been getting edited to the present day
> > same single individual articles that do no tell us anything about the fandom at large
> > "THE REAL NERDS"



The real nerds indeed. Mocking the sample doesn't take away its validity.



> If just some random articles are enough for your argument I got plenty.



Did you just kill your own argument? You cited Kevin Smith, the guy who made _Clerks_. You know, that movie that had a cartoon spin-off mocking TPM.



> the Prequels not being entirely negative still stand.



Did you miss the part where I never said that the reception was entirely negative at the start?



> Say that to the mediocre to terrible merchandise sells of books, comics, games, toys, and underperforming to than flop at the box office from the last two SW films. Nowhere did I ever hear of the Prequels hurting SW that bad to the point shit outside the movies was taking a hit anywhere like that.



Haven't you noticed that sales of traditional toys have been down in general? Haven't you noticed that the SW license was given to a game making company that hasn't exactly done the finest job with the property on its hands? Haven't you noticed that the market is crowded not just with other franchises like Marvel, but mediums outside of film? Star Wars isn't quite the juggernaut it used to be, and publicity-wise, Disney hasn't handled it all that well. This matter is less about the quality of the films than of the marketing and a failure to properly delegate. George Lucas knew how to do both rather well, but the same might not be said of the current ownership.



> All I have asked for is a simple answer. When has IGN ever been considered a reliable site for film reviews? When has it ever been a good indication on the general feelings of fandoms even as far back as the early millennium?



My apologies on not saying this next part last time. I forgot to edit in the following despite having written it out: IGN was a borderline acceptable site back when they had the decency not to blatantly shill products, like when they had the decency to give big nerd movies less than stellar reviews or ones going "8.0 because I didn't like x". Had you been around, you would have remembered those days.



> All you have given me at this point is your word and your word alone. Based off your attitude and arguments in the past, why should I only take your word alone at face value without any evidence to back it up? If you find it so hard to give proof, maybe it's because you are arguing a point you can't prove?



Nostalgia, that's how argumentation works. My argument is the current narrative status quo. It doesn't need arguing because it's the assumption. As the one representing the revisionist perspective, the burden is on you to disprove it. Now stop trying to change the subject and please give me your conditions for conceding.



> Your proof that most Star Wars fan were very upset and (based off the content of that specific article) deranged over their hate of TPM during the time of it's release, is some forgotten fan article made(once again) in 2007?



My proof is that this was the standard narrative, and hence immediately taken without question.



> >the Star Wars Fandom
> >one of if not the largest fandom of all time
> >not mainstream
> 
> Uh do you even know what "mainstream" even means? and what proof have you that the sequels are not hated by the "mainstream" when evidence has pointed more in the opposite directions for all the various reasons I and others have already shown throughout out this thread and before already?



I have time and again ripped your arguments in this regard apart, so I suggest a new one if you don't want others to catch you reusing a disproved point. Do you actually know about the SW fandom, and not just the casual fans? Do you know about nerds and geeks? Do you know that it was SW fans and Trekkies that codified the idea that no one hates a franchise as much as its own fans?



> "actual Star Wars fans" and what the hell is that even supposed to mean in this context? that only those who hated the Prequels were real fans? Would sound like the type of Elitism that made PT haters into looking like such douchebags to everyone else.



Begging several questions here.



> And what else compared to Plinkett at the time? A whole hour into ripping on one movie, knowing how to edit competently and at least keep the review entertaining instead of boring like most videos were back in the day, putting so much time and effort into it alone would draw people into it and start a following. It's completely understandable why he made it big when the review came out, Doug Walker did it in his reviews years ago ripping into films that were not even disliked but enjoyed by most people before and still did after and he got tons of viewers and subscribers for it. people just enjoy reviews that inform them while being entertaining. It just so happens that RLM fans are far more obnoxious about it than most.



Because Plinkett put it all in one place succinctly. Prior to then, it was "Jar Jar sucks" and "Anakin sucks" and "the story is stupid" dominating due to the criticisms being spread all over the place, before Plinkett gathered the best arguments and refined them. Meanwhile, Doug Walker remains a niche figure with a comfortable enough niche, but not so much that the only people who care about his opinions are those who give a damn what an e-celeb has to say. Based on that, you'd think that Plinkett wouldn't be as influential on reception to the prequels as you would like to pretend he is.



> Wrong. Read my post again, I said there were others and never even mentioned RLM until several posts after I started arguing with Martial about the reception. And being mixed implies negativity was there from the get go, I simply stated it veered to the positive more often than not. Don't go putting words in my mouth.



Again, what point were you making then? I said that the negativity was there from the start and grew into the general mood. I even pointed out the flaws with the argument about positivity being the main theme, as the high wore off as the fandom began to sulk. Regardless, given that more than one person is unsure of your point, it could be that the points made by yourself previously were expressed in a less than clear manner. Could you clarify your points explicitly to avert further confusion?



> The fact it went completely under the radar and was barely seen by anyone even in the giant of a fandom like Star Wars shows me it was not close to being the voice of the fandom like you are trying to make it out to be.



Or you are being either dishonest or were just plain ignorant. After all, you may have been too young, as many revisionists are, or you weren't part of the fandom scene at the time.



> I'd ask what the hell kind of point you are making since all you have been doing is purposely misinterpreting my point to paint me as a revisionist from the get go while making shit up and trying to pretend I said things I never said. I never once said the haters became the majority, they were always a minority when TPM came out and were simply more vocal about it, nothing more.



Then what point were you making? You've said that the prequels were hated only by a majority, yet have implied that their growth over time was in part due to Plinkett. I, on the other hand, have pointed out that the hate was always there and growing, with Plinkett merely preaching  to the choir.



> Your narrative is already getting disproven by everything related to the franchise nowadays.



That's quite the questionable assertion, to say the least.



> Which is wrong because it was not "what remained" that got hit by the damage TLJ made, almost every SW fan was pissed off about TLJ and Disney's treatment of the franchise which effected not only the people buying tickets for the movie but anyone who just liked buying and collecting shit for Star Wars which never happened with the Prequels at their worst.



Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the reception for the last SW film to come out before Lucas gave it to Disney.

First up, the critics: 

Next up, the box office: 

This is not all that healthy a franchise based on what the critics were saying and the money made in comparison to the main films. And here's Todd McCarthy's blurb: "This isn't the Star Wars we've always known and at least sometimes loved." Emphasis on "sometimes". The prequels had done damage, and the mainstream was aware of it.

Now, one could argue that the film had a more limited audience due to being animated and in the States, aimed at younger viewers despite Lucas' claims about the other movies in general. But even then, that box office take, while enough to keep the film from being a financial flop, was disappointing given what a typical movie in the franchise could do. It didn't help that it suffered an over 50% drop in its second week, suggesting that the diehard fans were the ones crowding the first week and then stayed away right afterward.



> How about you look at the numbers yourself and see how much worse TLJ did even compared to AOTC in terms of domestic tickets drops from the main film proceeding it.



You ever heard of the catch-up effect? The idea behind it is that a less developed economy on the upswing is going to show more growth in terms of its comparative rate because it's starting from a lower position, and thus has more room to climb compared to a more developed economy.

Anyway, based on similar principles, let's look at the prequels and TLJ. The prequels disappointed at first with TPM, but that made bank because hey, first new SW film since 1983. However, that wound up hurting its staying power, so that by the time its run was over, it had done well but definitely fallen short of say, _Titanic_ or the original _Star Wars_. The former had legs and James Cameron, the latter had legs and a surprise success stemming from being a fresh take on old material repackaged for the crowd. Then Disney comes along and tries to portray itself as a savior, and then makes TFA, which is uneven and plays it safe, but at least works just well enough that confidence is up and people are saying to wait for the next one.

Confidence is up, so TLJ gets opening numbers that make even the prequel opening weeks look like nothing even accounting for adjustment. Then reality hits, and it hits hard. That confidence has taken a severe blow.

My narrative holds.



> With how much annoyance this shit has been to type with *this is going to be my last word on this* since I have had a hard enough week as it is and I just want to enjoy my two days off now.



I doubt it will, although it would be a great sign of maturity not to return to a pointless argument on the Internet. Do try to resist the urge though. I'm rooting for you to do just that. Life is better spent not wasted on arguing over the poor reception of a bunch of movies for children.

EDIT:

Check out yet another example of how mainstream prequel mockery was:





And have another: 
Even Zombie Simpsons was doing this in 2004. And this was when their attempts at being relevant were starting to get a tad behind the times.

Here's  from an older routine of his. Yet another bit of geeky opinion leaking into the mainstream with gusto.

But you know what's the most obvious piece of evidence that is so obvious that I wound up forgetting all about it? It's the fact that the dominant narrative became what it was and stayed that way. If it was just a vocal minority, it might have come to brief prominence, but then quickly been shouted down as the minority was crowded out by the majority of voices. Instead, it grew over time, and became the traditional narrative. This was no mere vocal minority, it was a bunch of disgruntled fans developing an increasingly negative opinion the longer they digested what they had consumed.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 12, 2019)

Nostalgia, if "I've contributed nothing to this discussion", it's because I've figured out by now you're not interested in having a discussion, so why would I bother investing myself in another debate that will inevitably draw the attentions of the mods, who will delete everything anyway?

Kuromaku, you're far more patient than I am.


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## Overwatch (Oct 14, 2019)

Well, we are now at the point where fanboys are trying to retroactively praise The Fucking Force Unleashed in light of the new Jedi Fallen Order game. 

This fandom fucking sucks and it deserves every ounce of dogshit it gets served.


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## Garcher (Oct 14, 2019)

Overwatch said:


> Well, we are now at the point where fanboys are trying to retroactively praise The Fucking Force Unleashed in light of the new Jedi Fallen Order game.
> 
> This fandom fucking sucks and it deserves every ounce of dogshit it gets served.


force unleashed > disney, stay mad nerd


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## Overwatch (Oct 14, 2019)

I hate the new movies. They're what finally made me gave up on this franchise. 

But trying to push the fucking prequels as some kind of misunderstood masterpiece is top kek.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 14, 2019)

Overwatch said:


> push the fucking prequels as some kind of misunderstood masterpiece is top kek.



Where in this thread did you see someone saying they were a masterpiece.


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## Catalyst75 (Oct 14, 2019)

Freddie Prinze Jr., you are golden.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 14, 2019)

Freddie is a mindless shill who unironically defends not needing to train to be better with the force than people who have spent years with it and seriously uses "you just hate woman" as an argument. Fuck him.


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## MShadows (Oct 15, 2019)

Absolutely love this reimagined fight. It's better than the original one. 
Imagine if these guys had Disney's budget... this little fan work takes a huge dump on all the sequels


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## Ren. (Oct 15, 2019)

Overwatch said:


> I hate the new movies. They're what finally made me gave up on this franchise.
> 
> But trying to push the fucking prequels as some kind of misunderstood masterpiece is top kek.


Shit just see Joker 10 times and All the non existent past 6 movies are gone!

SW Mary Sue Edition sucks if the prequels are seen as great SW movies!


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## MShadows (Oct 17, 2019)

This guy hits 'em where it hurts.

Reactions: Like 2


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 17, 2019)

I am thrilled by the idea of Palpatine returning, but I think that, rather than him fully returning to life in a clone body, as happened in the original expanded universe, it is more likely to be a vision of him or a lingering spirit, as happened with Obi-Wan in the original trilogy, and I also believe that the same is true for Darth Vader’s breathing, as well.

            Also, I do not think that Rey is actually turning evil, but that she is merely seeing a vision of herself as evil, similar to how Luke had a vision of Vader on Dagobah.

            Also, who designed that ridiculous switchblade-like lightsaber? Did the makers of this film learn nothing from the feedback to Kylo Ren’s lightsaber in _The Force Awakens?_

            I really hope that, after this film, Lucasfilm does not make any more for many years, to allow the franchise (and the audience) to rest and recover from the recent fatigue of having a new film every year.


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## Son Of Man (Oct 18, 2019)

Trailer soon?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Oct 19, 2019)




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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 19, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Oct 19, 2019)

I thought that the last one was the final trailer...


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Oct 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I thought that the last one was the final trailer...



They always have released since 2015 the final trailer on October. It's been a pattern: first look on April for SW month, sometimes a brief, sneak preview or BTS during Disney Expo and finally the 3rd full trailer two months before the release.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 19, 2019)

> "one of the Top 5 opening wknds of all-time"
> less trailer views than Joker


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## MartialHorror (Oct 19, 2019)

Either the movie will flop... or certain people will spin its numbers in such a way to convince themselves that it flopped... I hope it does well, if only so I can predict people claiming that Disney bought seats.


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## Son Of Man (Oct 19, 2019)

Some people don't think it will earn 1 billion


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## MartialHorror (Oct 19, 2019)

I don't think it will do much better than "The Last Jedi". "Revenge of the Sith", after all, is still the 3rd lowest selling Star Wars flick in the U.S, behind only "Solo" and "Attack of the Clones". 

As for whether or not it crosses a billion, it ultimately comes down to fan response once they see it. "Solo" had an unenthusiastic reception in an overcrowded summer and no one seemed all that eager for it anyway. You had one crowd calling it "Soylo"... but the other crowd probably didn't care either, as it still starred a white male. So it's not a good measuring stick.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 19, 2019)

Thinking we need to "spin the numbers" for ROS potentially doing worse than TLJ as anything but a indication that Disney has failed to use the SW brand right is just the height of delusion.

It does not need to flop like Solo did to be a failure, just an underwhelming performance that barely makes back it's money would be bad for Disney as every main SW film made by them has had over 300 mill in it's production budget alone which does not even account for the marketing budget so combined that with the constant re shots ROS has gone through and it is going to need a lot just to put money back into Disney's hands as shown by their terrible handling of the franchise as a whole. They are still not close to getting back what they bought and paid for with the SW license even in the event ROS gets a bill.


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I thought that the last one was the final trailer...


This will be the final final trailer


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## MartialHorror (Oct 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Thinking we need to "spin the numbers" for ROS potentially doing worse than TLJ as anything but a indication that Disney has failed to use the SW brand right is just the height of delusion.
> 
> It does not need to flop like Solo did to be a failure, just an underwhelming performance that barely makes back it's money would be bad for Disney as every main SW film made by them has had over 300 mill in it's production budget alone which does not even account for the marketing budget so combined that with the constant re shots ROS has gone through and it is going to need a lot just to put money back into Disney's hands as shown by their terrible handling of the franchise as a whole. They are still not close to getting back what they bought and paid for with the SW license even in the event ROS gets a bill.



The problem with your logic is that you're going based on the 4 billion license cost, which Disney probably would not have covered yet even if "The Last Jedi" grossed  "The Force Awakens" money. Fuck, even if "Solo" grossed "The Force Awakens" money. "The Last Jedi" still had a net profit of over $400,000,000, so a 1.3 billion gross was a little more than "barely made back its money". 

It's not even going to matter once Disney+ comes out anyway, as Star Wars is being used to sell that. So as long as their streaming service sells, they'll get their money. 

Just out of curiosity, what do you predict will be its box office intake?


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## MartialHorror (Oct 19, 2019)

Even though people are making a big deal over the movie supposedly testing alternate endings and doing reshoots... why is this a sign that "RoS" is a disaster? EVERYTHING seems to go through extensive reshoots these days. 

"Avengers: Endgame"... the hottest movie of the year... went through two sets of reshoots and the directors didn't complete editing until like 7 weeks before the release date. 

And test endings can mean so many things that honestly, who cares? "Paranormal Activity" seemingly had a dozen of them. Movies do it all the time.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> The problem with your logic is that you're going based on the 4 billion license cost, which Disney probably would not have covered yet even if "The Last Jedi" grossed  "The Force Awakens" money.


The problem with your logic is that you are ignoring the franchise at large which extends beyond the movies, which Disney has failed at properly handling.


MartialHorror said:


> Fuck, even if "Solo" grossed "The Force Awakens" money. "The Last Jedi" still had a net profit of over $400,000,000, so a 1.3 billion gross was a little more than "barely made back its money".


Oh please that shit means nothing when including the costs to make them and the revenue not all going back to Disney anyway so that 1.3 bill is just barely making back it's money.


MartialHorror said:


> It's not even going to matter once Disney+ comes out anyway, as Star Wars is being used to sell that. So as long as their streaming service sells, they'll get their money.


It's hilarious how you blindly believe Disney+ is going to compensate in anyway for the movies overall franchise underwhelming without any facts backing for your argument.


MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, what do you predict will be its box office intake?


Just out of curiosity, how much are you freaking out over it? Your double posting tells me you're having a hard time.


MartialHorror said:


> Even though people are making a big deal over the movie supposedly testing alternate endings and doing reshoots... why is this a sign that "RoS" is a disaster? EVERYTHING seems to go through extensive reshoots these days.


Bullshit. Name how many movies hitting at the 300 mill plus range have gone through multiple re shoots just within 4 months of it's release date and not be in trouble? I doubt your'll find more than a handful.


MartialHorror said:


> "Avengers: Endgame"... the hottest movie of the year... went through two sets of reshoots and the directors didn't complete editing until like 7 weeks before the release date.


Editing is not re-shooting Einstein. Editing is what all movies go through, re-shooting is making entirely new scenes that were not in the original production and when they happen extensively within just a few months of a films release that is a sign of a troubled production. And it's laughable how you are unironically comparing this to Endgame when that was going to make money regardless thanks to hyping up its fanbase unlike ROS which has to deal with the fallout of TLJ which deflated it.


MartialHorror said:


> And test endings can mean so many things that honestly, who cares? "Paranormal Activity" seemingly had a dozen of them. Movies do it all the time.


This sentence is the very definition of "cope".


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## MartialHorror (Oct 20, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> The problem with your logic is that you are ignoring the franchise at large which extends beyond the movies, which Disney has failed at properly handling.



So by this logic, if the movie grossed 2 billion dollars, it would still be a failure?



> Oh please that shit means nothing when including the costs to make them and the revenue not all going back to Disney anyway so that 1.3 bill is just barely making back it's money.



... You don't know what "net profit" means?



> It's hilarious how you blindly believe Disney+ is going to compensate in anyway for the movies overall franchise underwhelming without any facts backing for your argument.



I'm making an assumption based around how much Disney is putting in their streaming service. If it fails, it's going to do more than lose money. Stock will drop. The whole streaming service craze might stall. But I don't see how it will fail, just because Disney has too many marketable properties and their prices are low.



> Just out of curiosity, how much are you freaking out over it? Your double posting tells me you're having a hard time.



... Someone is trying to deflect... I did a post. I had another thought, so posted again. Are you freaking out over it? Your obsession with the "old" button tells me you're having a hard time.



> Bullshit. Name how many movies hitting at the 300 mill plus range have gone through multiple re shoots just within 4 months of it's release date and not be in trouble? I doubt your'll find more than a handful.



"Spider-Man: Far From Home", "Avengers Endgame", "Captain Marvel" this year. The problem with your challenge is you generally won't find more than a handful of movies with that price tag at all. Is that 300 million number you keep throwing around meant to be for the primary budget, or are marketing expenses included? I



> Editing is not re-shooting Einstein. Editing is what all movies go through, re-shooting is making entirely new scenes that were not in the original production and when they happen extensively within just a few months of a films release that is a sign of a troubled production. And it's laughable how you are unironically comparing this to Endgame when that was going to make money regardless thanks to hyping up its fanbase unlike ROS which has to deal with the fallout of TLJ which deflated it.



Actually, reshoots are often done because something isn't working in editing. Maybe something isn't clear enough for the audience, maybe there was a mistake or blunder no one noticed, or maybe they just thought they could do it better. In some cases they do mean there are serious problems, but with "Solo" and even "Rogue One", the problems ultimately fell down to creative differences -- which none of the rumors surrounding RoS suggested is going down.

Out of curiosity I looked up any info about the reshoots and it's funny how at least half of the articles point out the same thing I did, that they're not uncommon these days. Others tend to go the "it's unclear" route as to whether it's a sign of trouble. I'm not even saying that there aren't problems behind the scenes or that the movie isn't a disaster, but it is too early to say.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> So by this logic, if the movie grossed 2 billion dollars, it would still be a failure?


Yes because the rest of the franchise has tanked badly, at most with all the movies you only have 5 bill made in total at this point which is a pathetic number for something you bought for 4 bill at the start if you pretend there is an alternate timeline where TLJ did not fall hard in it's later weeks and made at least as much as TFA. Rest of the franchise has gone down bad which has further hurt the SW brand being a net benefit for Disney to put time and money into. Even if the 3 mainline movies all made 2 bill and and the spinoffs all made 1 bill at the most you would only have 8 bill in total from them, and that is not even going into how much that amount of money is even going back to Disney. The merchandise of games, toys, books, comics, parks, and other assorted products on their own would have helped this and brought more profits to the brand to make it more than worth the investment but Disney blew that shit hard and now it's making it difficult for even the films to reach profitable numbers for the company. 


MartialHorror said:


> You don't know what "net profit" means?


As compared to someone who does not know what "barely making back it's money" is if you seriously think 400 mill is not hugely underwhelming for a movie with a 300 bill+ budget on it's own, without tanking into account marketing costs.


MartialHorror said:


> I'm making an assumption based around how much Disney is putting in their streaming service.


Terrible argument especially when the costs for said show is going to be huge compared to the standard TV series of it's kind. And it's not like Disney putting a lot into something has not failed anyway like their recent SW theme park.


MartialHorror said:


> Someone is trying to deflect


Ironic considering you asked a pointless question.


MartialHorror said:


> "Spider-Man: Far From Home", "Avengers Endgame", "Captain Marvel" this year.


Wow you have awful memory. Neither CM nor Far from Home were on a 300 mill production cost, pray tell when either of those 2 even had re-shoots as close as ROS did? And the fact you only mentioned 3, when you really only got 1, just sells my point.


MartialHorror said:


> The problem with your challenge is you generally won't find more than a handful of movies with that price tag at all.


Which is exactly why your argument defending ROS having these is ridiculous in itself. There is nothing but trouble to come from the information revealing it had these re-shoots so late.


MartialHorror said:


> Actually, reshoots are often done because something isn't working in editing.


Name the examples of it happening on this scale and this soon to release.


MartialHorror said:


> Maybe something isn't clear enough for the audience, maybe there was a mistake or blunder no one noticed, or maybe they just thought they could do it better.


Nothing but coping I see here.


MartialHorror said:


> In some cases they do mean there are serious problems, but with "Solo" and even "Rogue One", the problems ultimately fell down to creative differences -- which none of the rumors surrounding RoS suggested is going down.


Not from what I am seeing. RO took away cringy lines like Erso's "I rebel" and seemed to tone down her being shown as superhuman compared to the other cast so it seemed much more like they knew the target audience was getting annoyed with the female empowerment even as far back as a year after TFA's release. Solo had more to do with KK being a dumbass in handling how the film's production went than anything else with how she fired the previous director for what seemed to be dubious reasons, and ROS all sounds like they are desperate to please as many people as possible to get them back into theaters. Not much to do with creative differences.


MartialHorror said:


> Out of curiosity I looked up any info about the reshoots and it's funny how at least half of the articles point out the same thing I did, that they're not uncommon these days.


Well you were always a drone for the MSM opinion so that is not surprising, nor does it really matter since them repeating each other is a given since news articles have been blatantly called out for that for years to the point it really started blowing up in the mid 2010s especially around the election cycle.


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## Runner (Oct 20, 2019)

Cope


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## dr_shadow (Oct 20, 2019)




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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Either the movie will flop... or certain people will spin its numbers in such a way to convince themselves that it flopped... I hope it does well, if only so I can predict people claiming that Disney bought seats.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 20, 2019)

Oh make no mistake, the movie will make money. It's just a question of whether Disney might find the net profits disappointing compared to what they might have expected with the earlier films' revenues.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 20, 2019)

If it comes at far less than TLJ it will be disappointing regardless since the former already had disappointing profits.


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## Fang (Oct 20, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Oct 20, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Yes because the rest of the franchise has tanked badly, at most with all the movies you only have 5 bill made in total at this point which is a pathetic number for something you bought for 4 bill at the start if you pretend there is an alternate timeline where TLJ did not fall hard in it's later weeks and made at least as much as TFA. Rest of the franchise has gone down bad which has further hurt the SW brand being a net benefit for Disney to put time and money into. Even if the 3 mainline movies all made 2 bill and and the spinoffs all made 1 bill at the most you would only have 8 bill in total from them, and that is not even going into how much that amount of money is even going back to Disney. The merchandise of games, toys, books, comics, parks, and other assorted products on their own would have helped this and brought more profits to the brand to make it more than worth the investment but Disney blew that shit hard and now it's making it difficult for even the films to reach profitable numbers for the company



OK, fair enough. That's not really this specific movies problem though. Because you'd have to call "Rise of Skywalker" a failure even if it became the highest grossing movie of all time. 



> As compared to someone who does not know what "barely making back it's money" is if you seriously think 400 mill is not hugely underwhelming for a movie with a 300 bill+ budget on it's own, without tanking into account marketing costs.



I'm assuming you meant 300 million? 400 in net profit is not hugely underwhelming either. I'm very curious where you get such an assumption. 



> Terrible argument especially when the costs for said show is going to be huge compared to the standard TV series of it's kind. And it's not like Disney putting a lot into something has not failed anyway like their recent SW theme park.



Maybe, but streaming services are probably the future of cinema. You also don't seem to realize that Disney is not a single person, which is why the MCU is run better than SW right now. 



> Wow you have awful memory. Neither CM nor Far from Home were on a 300 mill production cost, pray tell when either of those 2 even had re-shoots as close as ROS did? And the fact you only mentioned 3, when you really only got 1, just sells my point.
> 
> Which is exactly why your argument defending ROS having these is ridiculous in itself. There is nothing but trouble to come from the information revealing it had these re-shoots so late.
> 
> Name the examples of it happening on this scale and this soon to release.



I was going off the big budgeted/highest grossing movies this year. Few movies have 300 million production costs, UNLESS you are including marketing costs... in which, CM and Far From Home might've cost that much. You ignored my question when I asked where your 300 million number is even coming from and whether or not it includes marketing expenses.

Captain Marvel did reshoots about 3 months prior to the release date. Spiderman did reshoots about 2 months prior to the release date. Endgame did reshoots about 4 months prior. 

I'm not denying that Star Wars is cutting it close. But until the movie comes out and until the budget is released, whether or not it's a disaster is impossible to say. You keep throwing out lines like how "I'm coping", but I have absolutely no problem acknowledging being wrong. I've done it plenty of times. My issue with you is you throwing around claims that you clearly do not understand, because instead of doing any research, you just leach off of other user posts. 



> Not from what I am seeing. RO took away cringy lines like Erso's "I rebel" and seemed to tone down her being shown as superhuman compared to the other cast so it seemed much more like they knew the target audience was getting annoyed with the female empowerment even as far back as a year after TFA's release. Solo had more to do with KK being a dumbass in handling how the film's production went than anything else with how she fired the previous director for what seemed to be dubious reasons, and ROS all sounds like they are desperate to please as many people as possible to get them back into theaters. Not much to do with creative differences.



You don't know what creative differences is are either? "Rogue One" was originally written, shot and edited to be a gritty war movie, but Kennedy was unhappy because it didn't feel enough like Star Wars. That's creative differences. The original directors of "Solo" were apparently using a lot of ab libbing and going off of the script, annoying both Kennedy and the writer. That is also a creative difference. 



> Well you were always a drone for the MSM opinion so that is not surprising, nor does it really matter since them repeating each other is a given since news articles have been blatantly called out for that for years to the point it really started blowing up in the mid 2010s especially around the election cycle.



So if I have to choose between listening to Nostalgia Fan and the news, I should listen to Nostalgia Fan, right?


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## MartialHorror (Oct 20, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Oh make no mistake, the movie will make money. It's just a question of whether Disney might find the net profits disappointing compared to what they might have expected with the earlier films' revenues.





NostalgiaFan said:


> If it comes at far less than TLJ it will be disappointing regardless since the former already had disappointing profits.



If it grosses less than TLJ, then it yes, it is a failure regardless of how you look at it. At this point though, I suspect Disney would be happy enough if it grosses as much as TLJ, just because I think their expectations have lowered considerably after "Solo". All they need (from their perspective) is to not have a disaster on their hands. Even if it disappointed them behind-the-scenes, they can still save face publicly if the net profit is a couple hundred of million. Then they can just wash their hands of the trilogy/ their current business model and start fresh, hopefully learning from their mistakes.

But if episode 9 flops and I mean really flops like "Solo" did, then the brand is probably dead. If it does less than "The Last Jedi", but still technically makes a profit, it might not be as dramatic but would still be embarrassing for them.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> OK, fair enough. That's not really this specific movies problem though. Because you'd have to call "Rise of Skywalker" a failure even if it became the highest grossing movie of all time.


Hilarious from someone who would defend it being a failure if it does end up bombing at the box office.


MartialHorror said:


> I'm assuming you meant 300 million? 400 in net profit is not hugely underwhelming either. I'm very curious where you get such an assumption.


>300+ mill budget if not more adding in marketing
>"400 mill profit ain't so bad"
It's a wonder what goes on in your head to think getting only a 100 mill more than what you spent on something is a good profit.


MartialHorror said:


> Maybe, but streaming services are probably the future of cinema.


Doubtful, especially in thinking how that is going to bring people back to SW.


MartialHorror said:


> I was going off the big budgeted/highest grossing movies this year.


And I specifically stated show me an example of one on the budget ROS is on, as you were implying there was no problem with that having re-shoots so close to it's release regardless of the amount of money already pushed into this thing before hand.


MartialHorror said:


> Few movies have 300 million production costs, UNLESS you are including marketing costs... in which, CM and Far From Home might've cost that much.


Just keep proving my point, you can't name any outside of Endgame. The fact you are now adding marketing just to give your empty examples an excuse to be used only shows how desperate you are. TLJ had that high a budget without accounting for marketing so the price for making a film like ROS is going to be far higher than any MCU film not named Infinity War and Endgame.


MartialHorror said:


> You ignored my question when I asked where your 300 million number is even coming from and whether or not it includes marketing expenses.


Did you really not look up the budget for TLJ yourself in all this time? And since when the hell did you even ask this question you accuse me of ignoring. I will admit TFA was not as high as I thought but TLJ was and it is a given that Sequels are going to be more expansive these days.


MartialHorror said:


> Captain Marvel did reshoots about 3 months prior to the release date. Spiderman did reshoots about 2 months prior to the release date. Endgame did reshoots about 4 months prior.


Endgame was going to make a shit ton of money regardless of what happened, not applicable to ROS. Neither SpiderMan's nor CM's production budget went to even 200 mill much less the 300 mill ROS is likely to get, which implies even with re-shoots they did not cost much. Explain why ROS is in anyway looking good in comparison to the others with this in mind.


MartialHorror said:


> I'm not denying that Star Wars is cutting it close. But until the movie comes out and until the budget is released, whether or not it's a disaster is impossible to say.


Not really because it's easy to see this is going to have trouble regardless of how much your side wants to deny it as Joker's more recent trailers were getting far more than even ROS's oldest trailers that were around longer and we see that Joker might make it to a bill if it keeps it's momentum, might is the key word here. If ROS is getting less attention than that it spells a lot of trouble amplified even more by the recent re-shoots which are going to need it to make even more money at the box office to be profitable. Even in the event it does get to at least TLJ numbers it still won't help Disney's overall failure to make back the money they spent just to buy the license in the first place.

That's why we are calling it a disaster, because the brand itself has sunken badly to the point there is nothing this flick can do to reverse the damage thanks to Disney's terrible handling of the franchise.


MartialHorror said:


> You keep throwing out lines like how "I'm coping", but I have absolutely no problem acknowledging being wrong. I've done it plenty of times. My issue with you is you throwing around claims that you clearly do not understand, because instead of doing any research, you just leach off of other user posts.


Ironic coming from the same guy who has not even done enough research to simply check TLJ's budget and needs to ask for such a simple answer. You keep coming in here trying hard to defend and downplay how badly this film's chances at disappointing at the box office is and pretend it's development is just the standard and we have nothing to worry when it's clear things are pointing south. Even more funny you saying I am "leaching off other posts" when no one besides me is even putting as much effort into debating this topic with you at the moment and all your points are regurgitated from eons ago.


MartialHorror said:


> You don't know what creative differences is are either? "Rogue One" was originally written, shot and edited to be a gritty war movie, but Kennedy was unhappy because it didn't feel enough like Star Wars.


Don't know where you got your sources for this since shit that I mentioned like Jyn's line and other scenes showing off her combat skills to others are far off from the "gritty war" you claim were the only things cut.


MartialHorror said:


> That's creative differences. The original directors of "Solo" were apparently using a lot of ab libbing and going off of the script, annoying both Kennedy and the writer. That is also a creative difference.


That's bullshit since Jar Jar used the same thing in TFA and he is back on ROS so that sounds like a made up excuse.


MartialHorror said:


> So if I have to choose between listening to Nostalgia Fan and the news, I should listen to Nostalgia Fan, right?


I honestly don't give a darn what news you watch since you were the one bringing that up as a reason to back up your point when I prefer to look into stuff and make up my own mind on the info, not what some irrelevant Journalist who regurgitates the same shit has to say on things. Not my problem you need others to make up your mind, again ironic what with you saying I leach off others talking points.


MartialHorror said:


> If it grosses less than TLJ, then it yes, it is a failure regardless of how you look at it. At this point though, I suspect Disney would be happy enough if it grosses as much as TLJ, just because I think their expectations have lowered considerably after "Solo". All they need (from their perspective) is to not have a disaster on their hands. Even if it disappointed them behind-the-scenes, they can still save face publicly if the net profit is a couple hundred of million.


Pfft please a couple hundred mill is not going to make whatever underwhelming profit this film makes look any better. The SW brand itself is not going to become profitable again in the near future if they seriously go ahead with any of their new "trilogies" that are unlikely to win back any large amount of fans.


MartialHorror said:


> Then they can just wash their hands of the trilogy/ their current business model and start fresh, hopefully learning from their mistakes.


If they want to learn they better retcon this entire trilogy out and not leave the old cast as failures like they have already. No one is just going to forget this if they remain like they are.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 20, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Hilarious from someone who would defend it being a failure if it does end up bombing at the box office.
> 
> >300+ mill budget if not more adding in marketing
> >"400 mill profit ain't so bad"
> It's a wonder what goes on in your head to think getting only a 100 mill more than what you spent on something is a good profit.



Eh? OK, let me explain to you what "net profit" is. It's the profit gained AFTER all deductions. So that 400 million is what's left AFTER they've divided the gross amongst theater chains, etc. AFTER expenses, which includes the budget. AFTER taxes, interest, etc. If you don't understand this, then you just understand how basic business works. If you put in 300 million dollars, MAKE THAT BACK and then MAKE 400 MILLION DOLLARS MORE after that, then you've more than doubled your investment.  



> And I specifically stated show me an example of one on the budget ROS is on, as you were implying there was no problem with that having re-shoots so close to it's release regardless of the amount of money already pushed into this thing before hand.
> 
> Just keep proving my point, you can't name any outside of Endgame. The fact you are now adding marketing just to give your empty examples an excuse to be used only shows how desperate you are. TLJ had that high a budget without accounting for marketing so the price for making a film like ROS is going to be far higher than any MCU film not named Infinity War and Endgame.
> 
> Did you really not look up the budget for TLJ yourself in all this time? And since when the hell did you even ask this question you accuse me of ignoring. I will admit TFA was not as high as I thought but TLJ was and it is a given that Sequels are going to be more expansive these days.



OK, so you aren't including marketing. But you're also speculating on RoS's budget. TLJ was not THAT much more expensive than TFA. Maybe it cost 300 million. Maybe it cost 400 million. Maybe it cost 250 million. We won't know for awhile. 



> Endgame was going to make a shit ton of money regardless of what happened, not applicable to ROS. Neither SpiderMan's nor CM's production budget went to even 200 mill much less the 300 mill ROS is likely to get, which implies even with re-shoots they did not cost much. Explain why ROS is in anyway looking good in comparison to the others with this in mind.



If you want to emphasize that the movies didn't cost as much, doesn't this mean reshoots don't cost as much as you think? I don't really know why it matters, unless the reshoots are changing the movie. All everyone has really talked about so far in regards to RoS is the endings. But I haven't heard any reports that they've had to scrap half of the movie. 



> Not really because it's easy to see this is going to have trouble regardless of how much your side wants to deny it as Joker's more recent trailers were getting far more than even ROS's oldest trailers that were around longer and we see that Joker might make it to a bill if it keeps it's momentum, might is the key word here. If ROS is getting less attention than that it spells a lot of trouble amplified even more by the recent re-shoots which are going to need it to make even more money at the box office to be profitable. Even in the event it does get to at least TLJ numbers it still won't help Disney's overall failure to make back the money they spent just to buy the license in the first place.
> 
> That's why we are calling it a disaster, because the brand itself has sunken badly to the point there is nothing this flick can do to reverse the damage thanks to Disney's terrible handling of the franchise.



You keep saying "I'm denying it", when I'm actually saying "it's too early to say". The youtube numbers are definitely bad, although the trailers seem to do well on other platforms. 



> Ironic coming from the same guy who has not even done enough research to simply check TLJ's budget and needs to ask for such a simple answer. You keep coming in here trying hard to defend and downplay how badly this film's chances at disappointing at the box office is and pretend it's development is just the standard and we have nothing to worry when it's clear things are pointing south. Even more funny you saying I am "leaching off other posts" when no one besides me is even putting as much effort into debating this topic with you at the moment and all your points are regurgitated from eons ago.



If you look TLJ's budget, you'll find numbers ranging from 200 to 320 million dollars. I was curious if RoS's estimated budget had been released, which apparently it hasn't, considering you just based it on TLJ's numbers. 



> Don't know where you got your sources for this since shit that I mentioned like Jyn's line and other scenes showing off her combat skills to others are far off from the "gritty war" you claim were the only things cut.



That was the chatter at the time. Other sources just said the original cut sucked. I said "gritty war" between Kennedy and Edwards said that was their goal. When the reshoots happened, part of it was because she felt it was too dark. Disney+co denied it, but I'd assume you wouldn't consider them a reliable source. 



> That's bullshit since Jar Jar used the same thing in TFA and he is back on ROS so that sounds like a made up excuse.



Once again, that was the chatter... sort of like this "6 endings" talk. 



> I honestly don't give a darn what news you watch since you were the one bringing that up as a reason to back up your point when I prefer to look into stuff and make up my own mind on the info, not what some irrelevant Journalist who regurgitates the same shit has to say on things. Not my problem you need others to make up your mind, again ironic what with you saying I leach off others talking points.



Then where are you getting your info? It's not about making up your mind. It's about facts or at least educated estimates. You believe the "6 endings" stuff, right? That stuff comes from journalists. 



> Pfft please a couple hundred mill is not going to make whatever underwhelming profit this film makes look any better. The SW brand itself is not going to become profitable again in the near future if they seriously go ahead with any of their new "trilogies" that are unlikely to win back any large amount of fans.
> 
> If they want to learn they better retcon this entire trilogy out and not leave the old cast as failures like they have already. No one is just going to forget this if they remain like they are.



I was referring to their perspective. Whether it's right or not is another argument. I personally think Star Wars should go into hibernation for a decade or so. I think that's the only way you could really to bring everyone back in. Even if it means waiting longer to make back the investment, it's not like Disney is short on money right now.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> "incoherent sperging"


Yeah no shit Net profits are what the film makes after the deduction Sherlock. The point is that 400 mill out of something you put 300 mill into the first place is a lousy cashback. Just for example you are not even addressing how much of the marketing budget was used for the film which could have gone to 100 mill and higher on it's own so that 400 mill net profit you keep babbling on about starts looking unimpressive.


MartialHorror said:


> OK, so you aren't including marketing.


Wrong, I am saying that on their own production budget FFH and CM do not compare to ROS and Endgame, much less with marketing included.

Read a bit more clearly.


MartialHorror said:


> If you want to emphasize that the movies didn't cost as much, doesn't this mean reshoots don't cost as much as you think?


Nope, just the specifics for those movies. We see with Solo re-shoots can up the budget tremendously to the point Solo actually cost more in production values than even TFA did which just makes it being a failure even more hilarious. Try harder with a gotcha question.


MartialHorror said:


> I don't really know why it matters, unless the reshoots are changing the movie. All everyone has really talked about so far in regards to RoS is the endings. But I haven't heard any reports that they've had to scrap half of the movie.


Rumors have been getting eerily correct from the way they have been matching the trailers recently and the re-shoots happening so close to when they started popping up tell us they are far more than just changing the ending.


MartialHorror said:


> You keep saying "I'm denying it", when I'm actually saying "it's too early to say". The youtube numbers are definitely bad, although the trailers seem to do well on other platforms.


No they don't. Nothing shows us they "seem to do well" especially in comparison to the previous films trailers and what are these "other platforms" supposed to tell us exactly in terms of numbers any better than Youtube which is the most popular video site on the internet?


MartialHorror said:


> If you look TLJ's budget, you'll find numbers ranging from 200 to 320 million dollars. I was curious if RoS's estimated budget had been released, which apparently it hasn't, considering you just based it on TLJ's numbers.


Box office mojo has it clearly at 316 mill. Got any counter points?


MartialHorror said:


> That was the chatter at the time. Other sources just said the original cut sucked. I said "gritty war" between Kennedy and Edwards said that was their goal. When the reshoots happened, part of it was because she felt it was too dark. Disney+co denied it, but I'd assume you wouldn't consider them a reliable source.


So even you agree there were different sources saying different things therefore taking away legitimacy from your own point?


MartialHorror said:


> Once again, that was the chatter... sort of like this "6 endings" talk.


So once again you made an assumption without any real backing to it. 


MartialHorror said:


> Then where are you getting your info? It's not about making up your mind. It's about facts or at least educated estimates. You believe the "6 endings" stuff, right? That stuff comes from journalists.


I take what I hear and pay attention to which seem more reliable than not which extends beyond just listening to journalists but posts and screencaps having the actual leakers which are provided to me by friends and associates in my personal media circles. Said rumors were not from Journalists by the way, they came from people working outside of it to even people working in the filming businesses itself which the MSM than started reporting on to the public after it already started getting out across the internet.


MartialHorror said:


> I was referring to their perspective. Whether it's right or not is another argument.


If the Mouse had any perspective they would rid themselves of nearly every single person working at Lucasarts and replace them with competent people who are both loving fans and have actual talent outside of fitting a diversity quota.


MartialHorror said:


> I personally think Star Wars should go into hibernation for a decade or so. I think that's the only way you could really to bring everyone back in. Even if it means waiting longer to make back the investment, it's not like Disney is short on money right now.


No you either retcon the ST or  you are not getting those fans back. Not one of them liked what happened to Luke or what became of the original 3's legacy thanks to Jar Jar and Rian destroying everything they fought for and made pointless so they could rehash the OT with shittier story and characters. It's gonna take a Days of Future Past kind of plotline to get people back if they are so stingy about not just ignoring anything to do with the ST and moving on.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 20, 2019)

@NostalgiaFan Discussing with the washed one its like going up stream. He is either a contrarian trying to get attention or he is that clueless. You are presenting points and arguments that are way better than what he deserves.

This franchise is pretty dead, the release of ep 9 will just be the burial.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 21, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Yeah no shit Net profits are what the film makes after the deduction Sherlock. The point is that 400 mill out of something you put 300 mill into the first place is a lousy cashback. Just for example you are not even addressing how much of the marketing budget was used for the film which could have gone to 100 mill and higher on it's own so that 400 mill net profit you keep babbling on about starts looking unimpressive.



Yeah, you don't understand net profit.



> Wrong, I am saying that on their own production budget FFH and CM do not compare to ROS and Endgame, much less with marketing included.
> 
> Read a bit more clearly.



Then how does that help your point when there are so few movies that are that expensive?



> Nope, just the specifics for those movies. We see with Solo re-shoots can up the budget tremendously to the point Solo actually cost more in production values than even TFA did which just makes it being a failure even more hilarious. Try harder with a gotcha question.
> 
> Rumors have been getting eerily correct from the way they have been matching the trailers recently and the re-shoots happening so close to when they started popping up tell us they are far more than just changing the ending.



Actually, that doesn't tell us anything. You are coming to a conclusion based on your own bias against the movie.



> No they don't. Nothing shows us they "seem to do well" especially in comparison to the previous films trailers and what are these "other platforms" supposed to tell us exactly in terms of numbers any better than Youtube which is the most popular video site on the internet?



Just search "Rise of Skywalker trailer views" and there are a list of them.




> Box office mojo has it clearly at 316 mill. Got any counter points?



NY Times refers to it as "350 to make and market".
2017 Feature Film Study has 262 after a rebate.
Forbes referred to it as 200+
As you say, box office mojo has 317 mill.
Deadline listed it as 200.

That's just a brief runthrough. The dependencies are because studios low ball their own numbers, while rival studios will bloat up said numbers. The 262 million seems to make the most sense, but I do find it funny you're so intent on fighting me that you ignored my question, which was asking if estimates for RoS had been released yet.




> So even you agree there were different sources saying different things therefore taking away legitimacy from your own point?
> 
> So once again you made an assumption without any real backing to it.



What has that to do with my point? I made an assumption without any backing? Oi.



Eventually even Kennedy and Lord/Miller seemed to acknowledge this, as Lord/Miller says their approach was different than what the studio wanted and Kennedy acknowledges their improvisational background and says that while Star Wars movies do improv too, but it has to be done in a "highly structured process".



> I take what I hear and pay attention to which seem more reliable than not which extends beyond just listening to journalists but posts and screencaps having the actual leakers which are provided to me by friends and associates in my personal media circles. Said rumors were not from Journalists by the way, they came from people working outside of it to even people working in the filming businesses itself which the MSM than started reporting on to the public after it already started getting out across the internet.



You don't even seem to know what's common knowledge though. How did you miss all of this shit going on with "Solo"? Everyone was mocking the movie for these reasons in the Solo thread. You include "your friends and personal media circles" as reliable sources? Really? I hope they don't include @Suigetsu. Otherwise, you might start thinking that Zack Snyder's daughter was murdered by the "Jewish mafia circle" that may or may not include Spielberg and J.J Abrams, as punishment for "Justice League".


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## Son Of Man (Oct 21, 2019)

Trailer tonight


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## Pilaf (Oct 21, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Trailer tonight




Oh, good. I won't have to browse Pornhub for torture porn.


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## Maffy the Love Doctor (Oct 21, 2019)

Just saw a promo on Twitter for the trailer and something looked familiar.


*Spoiler*: __ 




Could that be The Ghost from Rebels?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Son Of Man (Oct 21, 2019)

Maffy the Love Doctor said:


> Just saw a promo on Twitter for the trailer and something looked familiar.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Kanens son

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, you don't understand net profit.


More like you don't understand a good profit.


MartialHorror said:


> Then how does that help your point when there are so few movies that are that expensive?


I'm sorry did you forget YOUR the one trying to make ROS's budget not an issue with it's cost being upped by re-shoots? I stated this from the beginning show me a film on par with this in terms of cost and you not only failed to bring up more than 1 but you tried to add in marketing for the other two examples to make them seem on par in costs when we saw TLJ had more than that in just production costs alone so adding in marketing would only make ROS even more expansive based off being a sequel to a film made on a 300 mill production budget from the get go and could have been upped to 400 with the marketing campaign added.

To make the point crystal clear, 400 mill at best in net benefits is underwhelming for a film that had almost as much in total to make and market all in all, regardless of how you try to pretend it isn't.


MartialHorror said:


> Actually, that doesn't tell us anything. You are coming to a conclusion based on your own bias against the movie.


Wrong, you are denying this only because of your bias FOR this movie. There is no reason ROS should cost less than TLJ especially with re-shoots being added as we see sequels almost always cost more than the previous film nowadays.


MartialHorror said:


> Just search "Rise of Skywalker trailer views" and there are a list of them.


Bring the source yourself instead of making me look for YOUR facts instead. Not like these random unknown sites would have higher views than YouTube to begin with.


MartialHorror said:


> NY Times refers to it as "350 to make and market".
> 2017 Feature Film Study has 262 after a rebate.
> Forbes referred to it as 200+
> As you say, box office mojo has 317 mill.
> Deadline listed it as 200.





Also lists it as 317.

Sources seem to favor my side here


MartialHorror said:


> That's just a brief runthrough. The dependencies are because studios low ball their own numbers, while rival studios will bloat up said numbers.


With how hard Disney tries to keep up the image that their handling of the SW has been a success to even defend their disaster of a theme park I am now more convinced of the 317 count being the true one.


MartialHorror said:


> The 262 million seems to make the most sense, but I do find it funny you're so intent on fighting me that you ignored my question, which was asking if estimates for RoS had been released yet.


I find it more funny how desperate you are on fighting me on this because of you zealotry over defending these flicks to the very bitter end over the most minuscule details. Also hilarious how you keep harping on your question when if you did not have such bad memory you would have remembered I already gave my answer on how much this flick would make months back in the previous thread.


MartialHorror said:


> What has that to do with my point? I made an assumption without any backing? Oi.


Two news articles that say they had sources but actually give no sources? And the so called reason was because 'it was too comedic" while the finished film had shit like Solo being Han's last name because of a bad joke? Sounds more like excuse making.


MartialHorror said:


> Eventually even Kennedy and Lord/Miller seemed to acknowledge this, as Lord/Miller says their approach was different than what the studio wanted and Kennedy acknowledges their improvisational background and says that while Star Wars movies do improv too, but it has to be done in a "highly structured process".


Just a lotta big talk from what I see, these same people were fine with shit like the "who talks first?" scene in TFA which was one of the worst examples of improv to have been seen in SW and now for some reason these guys were fired for similar shit? of course a tool like you would be convinced.


MartialHorror said:


> You don't even seem to know what's common knowledge though.


Speak for yourself.


MartialHorror said:


> How did you miss all of this shit going on with "Solo"?


I didn't. I kept up with that fiasco and found it amusing how hard it tanked. I knew very well the film had a shaky production even before the first trailer came out with it switching directors. Don't know where you are pulling up the idea I knew nothing.


MartialHorror said:


> Everyone was mocking the movie for these reasons in the Solo thread.


And I saw it all the way from back then, your point?


MartialHorror said:


> You include "your friends and personal media circles" as reliable sources?


Yeah they keep up with this shit and inform me and others all the time. Makes for good info tracking.


MartialHorror said:


> Really? I hope they don't include @Suigetsu. Otherwise, you might start thinking that Zack Snyder's daughter was murdered by the "Jewish mafia circle" that may or may not include Spielberg and J.J Abrams, as punishment for "Justice League".


I don't even know Sui all that personally but knowing you are I doubt those claims of yours have any merit.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Oct 21, 2019)



Reactions: Like 3


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## Maffy the Love Doctor (Oct 21, 2019)

Trailer's out!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Oct 21, 2019)

C3PO. 

Cool trailer.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Oct 21, 2019)




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## Fang (Oct 21, 2019)

I don't even need to say anything to vocalize how I feel about this.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 21, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> More like you don't understand a good profit.



Yeah, "Double your investment" is not a good profit... Even if the movie was a financial disappointment, "double your investment" is never "barely make your money back" when millions are involved.



> I'm sorry did you forget YOUR the one trying to make ROS's budget not an issue with it's cost being upped by re-shoots? I stated this from the beginning show me a film on par with this in terms of cost and you not only failed to bring up more than 1 but you tried to add in marketing for the other two examples to make them seem on par in costs when we saw TLJ had more than that in just production costs alone so adding in marketing would only make ROS even more expansive based off being a sequel to a film made on a 300 mill production budget from the get go and could have been upped to 400 with the marketing campaign added.



Because I was confused where the 300 million was coming from and you took forever to answer where you were getting the number from. That was the only reason I kept bringing up the number.

My point was "last minute reshoots happen all the time". Even you probably realized this is true, because you then tried to manipulate the argument by saying "but name more than a few with a budget of 300 million". There are like 6 movies with that budget and 5 of them are closely connected through the same franchises.



> Bring the source yourself instead of making me look for YOUR facts instead. Not like these random unknown sites would have higher views than YouTube to begin with.



Sort of like how you're relying on your "friends and social media circle"? 

Yeah, facebook, Instagram and twitter are "random unknown sites". Even those who use the youtube numbers against it tend to overlook the multiple channels showing it.



> Also lists it as 317.
> 
> Sources seem to favor my side here



The 317 million does pop up quite often. I will admit that when we started this debate, I was going off of memory back when the recorded numbers were closer to 200 million. The 2017 feature film study breaks the numbers down pretty thoroughly and I'll concede that it probably cost 317 million, which was taken down to approx 262 through rebates.




> Two news articles that say they had sources but actually give no sources? And the so called reason was because 'it was too comedic" while the finished film had shit like Solo being Han's last name because of a bad joke? Sounds more like excuse making.



I just grabbed the first two I saw. Also, I would assume any and every Star Wars flick would have humor in it. From what they make it sound like, the original directors wanted it to be a full on comedy. Keep in mind that "creative differences" can mean a lot and much of the problems seemed to stem from the directors imrpov style slowing things down too much. They'd do like 30 takes of one scene and apparently still not really know what they wanted, leaving the cast frustrated and confused -- although this came from unnamed sources. But Kennedy and the directors claims seem to back those claims up to an extent, albeit in a way designed to save face.



> And I saw it all the way from back then, your point?



Then why are you acting like I'm pulling these stories out of my ass? There were rumors and reports surrounding this shit before they were even fired.Or are you just baiting me?


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## MartialHorror (Oct 21, 2019)

Okay, so I thought the trailer was well put together... It was a fun watch on its own... but did they have to spoil Ben and Rey teaming up so blatantly? Or 3PO's apparent death? Remember when everyone was thrilled how "The Force Awakens" kept its trailers vague in spite of how epic they were? It does seem like it's using those to guilt people into seeing it, lol.


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## Skaddix (Oct 21, 2019)

I mean I say that trailer was pretty convincing proof of crisis behind the scenes with massive reshoots and multiple endings. 

We didn't learn jack about the plot and the action scenes were not impressive.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 21, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> I mean I say that trailer was pretty convincing proof of crisis behind the scenes with massive reshoots and multiple endings.
> 
> We didn't learn jack about the plot and the action scenes were not impressive.



None of the primary trilogy used their plots as selling points though. "Rogue One" at times seemed to be promoting a plot it didn't even have. Only "Solo" did.


----------



## Skaddix (Oct 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> None of the primary trilogy used their plots as selling points though. "Rogue One" at times seemed to be promoting a plot it didn't even have. Only "Solo" did.



I mean that is probably more Rogue One having massive reshoots and edit changes.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 21, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> I mean that is probably more Rogue One having massive reshoots and edit changes.



Probably, although at one point, it was said that the big shot of Jynn in the officers uniform was... just random test footage that was never intended to be part of the movie... I think some of the shots of the bad guy were also test footage. 

I've always liked the Star Wars trailers, but sometimes I find myself thinking... why? You bait-and-switch audiences like that, they're going to get wise. I've always suspected that's why the Transformers movies began their decline. The trailers make them seem darker and edgier, but then we get deep wang instead.


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## Son Of Man (Oct 21, 2019)

I liked the music and I thought some of the shot looked cool like kylo appearing and the throne


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## MartialHorror (Oct 21, 2019)

They're sending mixed messages about Kylo's helmet though. I figured after his failure to kill Luke, he'd regress back into the image he was originally trying to cultivate for himself. But it shows him and Rey fighting on the same side and he's wearing it, which I'd assume happens later in the movie, so the scenes where he's not wearing it and fighting Rey would take place earlier -- f@ck, I don't know. Maybe the helmet's good for selling toys and that's the real goal.


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## MShadows (Oct 21, 2019)

Oh, shit.... the leaks *were* real


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Oct 21, 2019)




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## MShadows (Oct 21, 2019)

Here's an interesting thing, did you guys know that the original script for The Force Awakens featured these two as the villains?



_"The tattoos are a lot simpler. They follow a rhythm and they flow. And that's the evil thing puppeteering her from behind." (pg 27)_

This is from the official artbook for The Force Awakens. That's Darth Talon and behind her seems to be some sort of manipulating creature which would eventually develop into "Snoke". So the "Master - Apprentice" dynamic was part of the plan from the start. 

From the reddit posted who brought this up:

_"According to the Art of TFA Book, Darth Talon was brought into the conversation as a villain early on. When they started out with Arndt's VERY sparse outline, a big part of the concept phase was fleshing out the villain. Back then, Kylo Ren wasn't even a thought. The main villain was referred to universally as the "Jedi Killer" and had many iterations before Kylo Ren was conceptualized. It was not originally intended for the character to be the child of Han and Leia."_
_
_
There's more:



_"This piece is titled "Seduction". Darth Talon is in a tropical smugglerish city (think Exotic City, the original locale for Maz Kanata's castle; look it up if you don't know what I'm talking about). Talon either lets some bar patrons assault her and tear off her clothes, or they're working with her for show. The Jedi saves her, and gives her his robe. She then flirts with him and acts grateful as they walk back to his place. She then sleeps with and kills him. (pg. 35)"
_
Now this here is not just concept art, they're storyboard scenes. For them to have already been creating scenes for her it means that she was definitely in the script. Her being a Jedi Killer is probably what rendered Luke as the last remaining Jedi in the galaxy and got him into hiding. 

_"Luke will become the last Jedi because of the Jedi Killer, Talon, a mysterious temptress killing off his apprentices one by one in order to further the goals of her master, an evil Sith spirit, and the Neo-Empire (as they are called in the Art Book)." _


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## MartialHorror (Oct 21, 2019)

You know, one thing the new trilogy lacks is a sense of sexuality. Obviously times have changed as to what is tasteful in children's entertainment... but these movies have all been PG-13. Even the MCU has plenty of references to sex.


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## Skaddix (Oct 22, 2019)

Darth Talon is an interesting choice...that said despite a rushed ending Dark Horse's Star Wars: Legacy Comic does everything this Sequel Trilogy wants to do 1000x better. And the ending was only rushed funny enough cause Disney was buying Lucas and so Dark Horse had to give up the comic rights.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Oct 22, 2019)

Glad the trailer didn't reveal too much.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, "Double your investment" is not a good profit... Even if the movie was a financial disappointment, "double your investment" is never "barely make your money back" when millions are involved.


100 mill more than the 300 mill you spent is not double your investment. I don't how the hell you could somehow come to that conclusion in your deluded mind, hell with how high the marketing can get for this shit it could have made the absolute total 400 mill itself which makes that 400 net profit you harp about worthless.


MartialHorror said:


> Because I was confused where the 300 million was coming from and you took forever to answer where you were getting the number from. That was the only reason I kept bringing up the number.


I did not need to answer it in the first place since you're the one at fault for not already knowing about such a simple fucking thing you could have google searched a long time ago as we have debated on this shit in the past. The fact you asked at all shows how little you know.


MartialHorror said:


> My point was "last minute reshoots happen all the time".


Bullshit because you never actually sourced the re-shoots that happened for CM and FFH to begin with or when they actually happened or the amount of reshoots they had, and no other films have been mentioned by you that had a budget of anymore than 200 and did not have trouble at the box office for this. Your point is without merit.


MartialHorror said:


> Even you probably realized this is true, because you then tried to manipulate the argument by saying "but name more than a few with a budget of 300 million".


Wrong, I stated how many films as big as this with how close they were to the release had this because specifics like this do not happen often and you were the one trying hard to manipulate the argument to your favor by actually arguing CM and FFH were on par with any of the SW films by adding in the marketing when you knew damn well that would only make the SW films even more expansive than they already were and therefore invalidate your own argument.


MartialHorror said:


> There are like 6 movies with that budget and 5 of them are closely connected through the same franchises.


Which his why your attempts at downplaying this are nothing but suspect.


MartialHorror said:


> Sort of like how you're relying on your "friends and social media circle"?
> 
> Yeah, facebook, Instagram and twitter are "random unknown sites". Even those who use the youtube numbers against it tend to overlook the multiple channels showing it.


So let me get this straight, you have only one news article, whose only source for these "111 mill" views is a Deadline news article, the same Deadline news article that Fluttershit linked months back that has no direct evidence for it's numbers, said numbers were made including both Facebook, Instragram, Twatter, ALL AT ONCE, and you say this means they outnumber Youtube?

Dude this just proved my fucking point because if those 3 COMBINED can only get at a 111 mill number than Youtube videos by themselves reaching 87 just shows how much they outnumber them on their own. And since youtube is the most popular video site on the internet, that only proves my goddamn point.

ROS getting higher on sites which were never on par with Youtube when it came to video streaming service means jack and shit compared to one that has existed since 2004 and become the biggest source of videos ever. And since the article does not even state if it was one video or multiple others, that would potentially make it even less impressive. If it's doing worse on youtube than films like Joker, that is a good indication where this is heading.


MartialHorror said:


> I'll concede that it probably cost 317 million


Now was that so hard? Maybe in the future instead of prolonging such a trivial thing you'll just accept them and move on. It's even funnier when the link that really convinced you was something you could have found on even Wikipedia for fuck's shake.


MartialHorror said:


> I just grabbed the first two I saw.


But did not even look into them for a few seconds it seems.


MartialHorror said:


> Also, I would assume any and every Star Wars flick would have humor in it.


Improv is  a type of humor, not just humor in general.


MartialHorror said:


> From what they make it sound like, the original directors wanted it to be a full on comedy.


Or maybe a workable comedy instead of a poorly made one like TLJ based on how both the former and the latter turned out.


MartialHorror said:


> Keep in mind that "creative differences" can mean a lot and much of the problems seemed to stem from the directors imrpov style slowing things down too much.


They had no problems when Jar Jar and Rian did it, don't see how that would have effected Solo much which just lends me to believe KK was being incompetent and perhaps disapproving of not being in complete control of their decisions.


MartialHorror said:


> They'd do like 30 takes of one scene and apparently still not really know what they wanted, leaving the cast frustrated and confused


Where exactly was this-


MartialHorror said:


> although this came from unnamed sources.


Aaaaaaand that was a waste of time.


MartialHorror said:


> But Kennedy and the directors claims seem to back those claims up to an extent, albeit in a way designed to save face.


"I have zero sources for the shit I say but I will just say it's true because the vagueness of KK and the directors totally fits amiright?"
And you say I am "coming to an conclusion based on your own bias" 


MartialHorror said:


> Then why are you acting like I'm pulling these stories out of my ass?


You literally just stated one of your stories were pulled out of your ass in this very same post. And I was already thinking that "creative differences" was a bullshit excuse from back than and I was not the only one. All you have done is given me is news articles lacking in sources.


MartialHorror said:


> There were rumors and reports surrounding this shit before they were even fired.Or are you just baiting me?


And you think the Mainstream journalists were the very first to start hearing about this when insiders in the business were leaking it out on multiple sites across the internet? Don't make me laugh, my gut already hurts from it by this point.


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## MShadows (Oct 22, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Darth Talon is an interesting choice...that said despite a rushed ending Dark Horse's Star Wars: Legacy Comic does everything this Sequel Trilogy wants to do 1000x better. And the ending was only rushed funny enough cause Disney was buying Lucas and so Dark Horse had to give up the comic rights.


Tbh, I’d have taken her over what we got.

Not only have we never gotten to see a female Sith on screen, but it would’ve been better than the placeholder Snoke turned out to be and having Palpatine return (which basically invalidates and takes a huge dump on Anakin’s sacrifice).


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## Mider T (Oct 22, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Tbh, I’d have taken her over what we got.
> 
> Not only have we never gotten to see a female Sith on screen, but it would’ve been better than the placeholder Snoke turned out to be and having Palpatine return (which basically invalidates and takes a huge dump on Anakin’s sacrifice).


How? Palpatine has come back before?


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## MShadows (Oct 22, 2019)

Mider T said:


> How? Palpatine has come back before?


In the movies? He died in RoTJ.


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## Mider T (Oct 22, 2019)

MShadows said:


> In the movies? He died in RoTJ.


In the novels.


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## Fang (Oct 22, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Glad the trailer didn't reveal too much.



There's a point in time when these kind of trailers stop being remotely entertaining and the whole "this is so epic" theme gets boring and they've reached that plateau now.


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## MShadows (Oct 22, 2019)

Mider T said:


> In the novels.


The novels are non-canon to the movies.


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## Fang (Oct 22, 2019)

Mider T said:


> In the novels.



He came back in Dark Empire's mini-series, which are comics/graphic novels. Even though it was canon in Lucas Star Wars, people were iffy on it and the novels which tends to be treated as the "highest" form of continuity outside of the films and TV shows viewed Clone Palpatine as a surrogate Emperor rather than the real deal.


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## Fang (Oct 22, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The novels are non-canon to the movies.



Not in the old canon.


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## Mider T (Oct 22, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The novels are non-canon to the movies.


Okay?  That doesn't really have anything to do with what you or I said.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 22, 2019)

The fact they brought Palpatine on at all is nothing sort of a lazy rip off of the Dark Empire comic series. It's even worse because at least Luke was there to finish the fight instead of dying off beforehand making Palpatine's rebirth all the more of a spit on his legacy and what happened in the OT combined with the Jedi still not coming back and the Republic just getting taken out from the get go.


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## MShadows (Oct 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> The fact they brought Palpatine on at all is nothing sort of a lazy rip off of the Dark Empire comic series. It's even worse because at least Luke was there to finish the fight instead of dying off beforehand making Palpatine's rebirth all the more of a spit on his legacy and what happened in the OT combined with the Jedi still no coming back and the Republic just getting taken out from the get go.


They pulled a Frieza, only to have him appear for like half an hour before he gets killed off again. 

And this is because Rian Johnson fucked Snoke over. Total waste!


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## MartialHorror (Oct 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> 100 mill more than the 300 mill you spent is not double your investment Einstein. I don't how the hell you could somehow come to that conclusion in your deluded mind, hell with how high the marketing can get for this shit it could have made the absolute total 400 mill itself which makes that 400 net profit you harp about worthless.



Net profit... for the last time... is after marketing costs and budget costs would've been made back...



> Bullshit because you never actually sourced the re-shoots that happened for CM and FFH to begin with or when they actually happened or the amount of reshoots they had, and no other films have been mentioned by you that had a budget of anymore than 200 and did not have trouble at the box office for this. Your point is without merit.






I only went off 2019's list of the highest grossing movies. There's only a certain amount of time I allow myself to sink into you, as you mentally block out info anyway.



> Wrong, I stated how many films as big as this with how close they were to the release had this because specifics like this do not happen often and you were the one trying hard to manipulate the argument to your favor by actually arguing CM and FFH were on par with any of the SW films by adding in the marketing when you knew damn well that would only make the SW films even more expansive than they already were and therefore invalidate your own argument.



... What?



> Which his why your attempts at downplaying this are nothing but suspect.
> 
> So let me get this straight, you have only one news article, whose only source for these "111 mill" views is a Deadline news article, the same Deadline news article that Fluttershit linked months back that has no direct evidence for it's numbers, said numbers were made including both Facebook, Instragram, Twatter, ALL AT ONCE, and you say this means they outnumber Youtube?
> 
> Dude this just proved my fucking point because if those 3 COMBINED can only get at a 111 mill number than Youtube videos by themselves reaching 87 just shows how much they outnumber them on their own. And since youtube is the most popular video site on the internet, that only proves my goddamn point you doofus.



You literally just tried to sell me that your "friends" and "social inner media circle" were reliable sources of information.



> Now was that so hard? Maybe in the future instead of prolonging such a trivial thing you'll just accept them and move on. It's even funnier when the link that really convinced you was something you could have found on even Wikipedia for fuck's shake.



I referenced that in the post prior... and unless it's just that convenient, I try to avoid getting info from wikipedia. I have no problem acknowledging when I'm mistaken. I have no problem adapting or taking in new info. You're the one who seems to fight for the sake of fighting. 



> Improv is  a type of humor, not just humor in general.



You referenced Han's last name, right? That was probably in the script, not improv.



> Or maybe a workable comedy instead of a poorly made one like TLJ based on how both the former and the latter turned out.
> 
> They had no problems when Jar Jar and Rian did it, don't see how that would have effected Solo much which just lends me to believe KK was being incompetent and perhaps disapproving of not being in complete control of their decisions.
> 
> Where exactly was this-



Well, I know their not from your 4Chan friends or reddit pals or whatever your "inner circle" comes from, but these were the initial reports that something was wrong. They were talking this kind of shit, "before" the firings.




> You literally just stated one of your stories were pulled out of your ass in this very same post. And I was already thinking that "creative differences" was a bullshit excuse from back than and I was not the only one. All you have done is given me is news articles lacking in sources.



"Pulled out of my ass" implies I made it up... Is this another thing I need to explain to you?



> And you think the Mainstream journalists were the very first to start hearing about this when insiders in the business were leaking it out on multiple sites across the internet? Don't make me laugh, my gut already hurts from it by this point.



... I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say about this. You keep challenging the reports, but now say they came from insiders in the business that were leaking it?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 22, 2019)

Mider T said:


> In the novels.


You mean the no longer even remotely canon novels because of disney?


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## Mider T (Oct 22, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> You mean the no longer even remotely canon novels because of disney?


Why do you guys keep bringing up canonicity like it had anything to do with my point?


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Net profit... for the last time... is after marketing costs and budget costs would've been made back...


You really are not reading my posts at this point are you? You spend 3 to 400 mill on something and you get back......400 mill. That is essentially getting back the money you spent on it the first place. Do you not understand that?


MartialHorror said:


>


Oh wow so finally you give out sources after all this time. First one only mentions Nick Fury so it does not seem like anything major, second is from 5 months back and is vague on just how much was added so neither look to be on par with the major changes talked about with ROS to begin with so not seeing how these make the latter not look troubling with it's re-shoots.


MartialHorror said:


> I only went off 2019's list of the highest grossing movies. There's only a certain amount of time I allow myself to sink into you, as you mentally block out info anyway.


Wrong, I look at the info in the articles to begin with which is how I come to my conclusions where as you just seem to look at them with a quick glance and nothing else since you did not mention any of the details themselves. Sorry if that hurts your argument pal.


MartialHorror said:


> ... What?


Pay attention to this sentence of yours


MartialHorror said:


> I was going off the big budgeted/highest grossing movies this year.* Few movies have 300 million production costs, UNLESS you are including marketing costs... in which, CM and Far From Home might've cost that much.*


Here you are trying to argue the marketing costs of both these films would reach 300  as if they would compare with TLJ and the potential cost of ROS when these two would already cost that much without it. Simple enough for you?


MartialHorror said:


> You literally just tried to sell me that your "friends" and "social inner media circle" were reliable sources of information.


And you tried using vague news articles that do not even back up their own sources. Shits the reason why I would rather take my pals info over these news articles.


MartialHorror said:


> I referenced that in the post prior


And you got it wrong as the actual source stated.


MartialHorror said:


> You're the one who seems to fight for the sake of fighting.


He says as he continues to reply in a vain attempt to defend how much of a train wreck this whole franchise has been going through 


MartialHorror said:


> You referenced Han's last name, right? That was probably in the script, not improv.


They said they did not like it being too much of a comedy yet shit like that along with others felt like one with them making Han's iconic name the cause of a joke.
And I mentioned the improv scene in TFA and referenced the ones in TLJ. Yet KK had no problem with those, why would it have been any worse in Solo?


MartialHorror said:


> Well, I know their not from your 4Chan friends or reddit pals or whatever your "inner circle" comes from


I have never posted on either of those cesspools.


MartialHorror said:


> but these were the initial reports that something was wrong. They were talking this kind of shit, "before" the firings.


And just how do you know these Journalists were the first?


MartialHorror said:


> "Pulled out of my ass" implies I made it up... Is this another thing I need to explain to you?





MartialHorror said:


> They'd do like 30 takes of one scene and apparently still not really know what they wanted, leaving the cast frustrated and confused -- *although this came from unnamed sources*.


You outright admit you had nothing on this particular bit which might as well be you pulling it out of your ass because I never even heard of it beforehand. And I said I already thought the original excuses they made for SOLO were bullshit and hiding face, funny thing is I don't even remember wording it as "Pulled out of your ass" for that specific bit until you first said it, care to show me when I used it before you did since I checked and I found none before your post.


MartialHorror said:


> ... I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say about this. You keep challenging the reports, but now say they came from insiders in the business that were leaking it?


Insiders in the MOVIE BUSINESS sherlock. Guys who have been working on it either as crew members or others hanging out with them spilling the beans on this to various sites. The reports all seem true based on the latest trailer which makes it hard to doubt them.


----------



## ~VK~ (Oct 22, 2019)

so judging from the trailer it seems those trash tier leaks i read are real or at least partially real. lmao.

i'm still just going with my headcanon ending of finn awakening the force and murdering everyone and living happily ever after with hot alien bitches.


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## Xebec (Oct 22, 2019)




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## The World (Oct 22, 2019)

If Rey ends up killing Palpatine I'll know that this franchise is fully dead and nothing can be done to revive it.


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## Xebec (Oct 22, 2019)

The World said:


> If Rey ends up killing Palpatine I'll know that this franchise is fully dead and nothing can be done to revive it.



*Spoiler*: __ 



I saw the leak on reddit and the trailer damn near confirmed it so


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## JFF (Oct 22, 2019)

Well, the trailer is still damn good. I love the musical score / modification they did. Credit deserved where it is deserved. Trying to be epic 

But it may confirms the leaks -- looks that way. Sure that was not Rian Johnson's *actual* revenge ?


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## JFF (Oct 22, 2019)

BlazingInferno said:


> Which leaks?



Check my postings before.


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## Yagami1211 (Oct 22, 2019)

Oh, the un-hype is with me.


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## MShadows (Oct 22, 2019)

Can't wait for Rey to go full power Mary Sue at the end there and one shot Palpatine.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> You really are not reading my posts at this point are you? You spend 3 to 400 mill on something and you get back......400 mill. That is essentially getting back the money you spent on it the first place. Do you not understand that?
> 
> Oh wow so finally you give out sources after all this time. First one only mentions Nick Fury so it does not seem like anything major, second is from 5 months back and is vague on just how much was added so neither look to be on par with the major changes talked about with ROS to begin with so not seeing how these make the latter not look troubling with it's re-shoots.
> 
> ...



Oi, I feel like I'm debating my wall here... except my wall would have a better shot at writing coherent sentences. Unnamed sources is what the damn articles referred too. Look in your last post to find when you said I was pulling it out of my ass. Every source uses insiders not just in the movie business, but supposedly people from the set. I don't even know what your point is, as we had just been talking about what went on in "Solo".


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 22, 2019)

I liked the previous trailer more. This was ...meh


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## Katou (Oct 22, 2019)

it feels like the sequel of Force awakens than the last jedi


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## JFF (Oct 22, 2019)

Katou said:


> it feels like the sequel of Force awakens than the last jedi



Lets hope so


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Oi, I feel like I'm debating my wall here... except my wall would have a better shot at writing coherent sentences.


Hilarious when I am having to make myself so fucking clear that it feels like talking to a child. If you're having problems that's to do with your own convoluted posting.


MartialHorror said:


> Unnamed sources is what the damn articles referred too. Look in your last post to find when you said I was pulling it out of my ass


And "Unnamed sources" might as well be nothing if they have nothing else to back them up you dunce.


MartialHorror said:


> Every source uses insiders not just in the movie business, but supposedly people from the set.


And you have yet to prove this got out to the mainstream journals before anything else.


MartialHorror said:


> I don't even know what your point is, as we had just been talking about what went on in "Solo".


Because you are so goddamn adamant to defend every little fucking thing with Nu-wars that you side tracked the conversation into shit long past. If you are annoyed with this you can drop anything referring to Solo because it's not like you are doing a good job on your side of the argument.


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## reiatsuflow (Oct 22, 2019)

I'm there for ray and kylo and that's it (I think I'm the only person who likes ray).

The fuck is C3PO talking about, his friends? I can't remember them really interacting


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## dr_shadow (Oct 22, 2019)




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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 22, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> I'm there for ray and kylo and that's it (I think I'm the only person who likes ray).
> 
> The fuck is C3PO talking about, his friends? I can't remember them really interacting


I like Rey. But I do feel like she's kind of a boring lead. I don't feel much of a personal connection to her ups and downs.


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## reiatsuflow (Oct 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I like Rey. But I do feel like she's kind of a boring lead. I don't feel much of a personal connection to her ups and downs.



I more like her actor and her design. Or at least I did, because in this one they've done her up to look just like luke in new hope. She had a cool design / getup in force awakens.


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## Son Of Man (Oct 22, 2019)

The wooing boyega scene is becoming a meme. Seems he's done it in every trailer.


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## reiatsuflow (Oct 22, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> The wooing boyega scene is becoming a meme. Seems he's done it in every trailer.



Nothing will top aquaman's trailer, where he did the same woohoo twice (three times?) in the same trailer.

If the characters are having fun the audience is having fun


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## Fang (Oct 22, 2019)

Paint chips falling off a decaying wall have more personality then Rey does. I'm still trying to fathom how anyone actually likes her when her character has been consistently the same person since TFA with little to no changes at all.


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## Xebec (Oct 22, 2019)

MShadows said:


> They pulled a Frieza, only to have him appear for like half an hour before he gets killed off again.
> 
> And this is because Rian Johnson fucked Snoke over. Total waste!


But according the KK bringing Palps back was the plan all along 

They had no clue except knowing these movies would make money


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 22, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Why do you guys keep bringing up canonicity like it had anything to do with my point?


"I'm an ignorant bastard so it has nothing to do with my statement that is barely a point at all."
k.


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## chibbselect (Oct 22, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Nothing will top aquaman's trailer, where he did the same woohoo twice (three times?) in the same trailer.
> 
> If the characters are having fun the audience is having fun


I feel like that's the same _I-just-finished-my-psych-MA-and-boy-do-I-have-ideas_ logic TV producers used to justify laugh tracks


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> More like you don't understand a good profit.



Sigh, there are at least two pages worth of you two arguing that could have been avoided, if you just used the words "return on investment" instead of using the word "profit".



BlazingInferno said:


> Which leaks?



Reddit has practically the whole film and its acts revealed.
The trailer pretty much confirmed the leaks as true.


Seeing the original plan with Darth Talon replaced with what we have now is so saddening.
Such a missed opportunity, especially since Snoke seemed to have been built up much better there.


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## Zeit (Oct 22, 2019)

Uninspired hodgepodge of a trailer, aside from Palpatine there's nothing to hype and even he's a guilty indulgence. Can't believe how badly this trilogy was wasted.


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## Zeit (Oct 22, 2019)

mfw I read the leaks assuming that nothing could make me less interested in this movie and I realise JJ has cribbed some of the worst EU lore for it.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Oct 22, 2019)

Pretty decent trailer. 

I have a feeling that the movie will be less divisive than The Last Jedi but I think that it won't be enough to please everyone or even most people. 

The return of Palpatine is certainly the most interesting thing about this but also the most problematic. He's my favorite Star Wars character and the most iconic villain aside from Vader so I'm sure his presence alone will provide hype. However he must also be handled with the greatest amount of care. His presence requires some seriously good explanation to avoid it cheapening Vader's redemption and it must explain not only how he survived but also what he was doing all those years, and how he connects with Snoke and the New Order. Considering the approach both Abrams and Johnson regarding world building was to just not do it I kinda doubt either of them will give Palpatine's survival the care that it needs. 

Palpatine's return kinda highlights the failure of the New Order too. They have never been a compelling villainous faction and so Palpatine must be dragged back into the story to clean up the mess. They have even less motivation and development than the generic evil empire of the first trilogy and they lack any characteristic aside from being really evil. Snoke of course died pathetically before showing anything about him to suggest he could take over the galaxy aside from the plot saying he had done it off screen. Kylo never managed to be much of a driving villain either and considering he seems to be teaming up with Rey again it seems like he was never supposed to be. So with the Order unable to provide a villain its a return to Palpatine for us.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 22, 2019)

He's gonna job to Rey and that is all the reason to not see this spiel.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Oct 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> He's gonna job to Rey and that is all the reason to not see this spiel.



Eh I'd say a heroic sacrifice from Kylo will end up doing the deed.


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 22, 2019)

Definitely a 2 part effort from Rey and Kylo


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 22, 2019)

And the people who aren't seeing this movie talk about it more than the people who will...

That always been weird to me


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## BlazingInferno (Oct 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> And the people who aren't seeing this movie talk about it more than the people who will...
> 
> That always been weird to me



Especially two certain people who pretty much are the most vocal ones in any Star Wars thread.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 22, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Eh I'd say a heroic sacrifice from Kylo will end up doing the deed.


Implying either of those two losers deserve the win over Palps


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## Mider T (Oct 22, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> "I'm an ignorant bastard so it has nothing to do with my statement that is barely a point at all."
> k.


Who is ignorant but the one who completely missed a simple point?


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Implying either of those two losers deserve the win over Palps


Wasnt he thrown down a trash bin the first time?  That's not exactly a hard defeat to top...


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Wasnt he thrown down a trash bin the first time?  That's not exactly a hard defeat to top...


Getting thrown down the reactor of a planet destroying superweapon by the same man who was corrupted by him to destroy the very people he used to love in defense of his son beats whatever shitty attempt they are going to pull to have Palps lose to these two shitty fanfic tier characters.


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Getting thrown down the reactor of a planet destroying superweapon by the same man who was corrupted by him to destroy the very people he used to love in defense of his son beats whatever shitty attempt they are going to pull to have Palps lose to these two shitty fanfic tier characters.


Fair point


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 22, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Getting thrown down the reactor of a planet destroying superweapon by the same man who was corrupted by him to destroy the very people he used to love in defense of his son beats whatever shitty attempt they are going to pull to have Palps lose to these two shitty fanfic tier characters.




Lol.
But you are forgetting he is Ray's grandpa according to the leaks.
So she will be sacrificing the family she was always seeking for the family she has made herself.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 22, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Lol.
> But you are forgetting he is Ray's grandpa according to the leaks.
> So she will be sacrificing the family she was always seeking for the family she has made for herself.


Just like I said, fanfic tier character


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 22, 2019)

Wow, I should've known by the expensive designer robes that Palps spent his free time knocking boots .


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## Jake CENA (Oct 23, 2019)

There will be an increased crime rate once this stupid piece of shit movie premieres


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## Zeit (Oct 23, 2019)

>"3P0 losing his memory is so tragic."

This already happened at the end of ROTS tho.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Wow, I should've known by the expensive designer robes that Palps spent his free time knocking boots .



He was an emperor, after all.
He probably had a harem full of the best beauties the subjugated planets had to offer.


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## MShadows (Oct 23, 2019)

At least the Star Wars theme will remain forever iconic. Regardless of how bad Disney butchers this franchise, this theme will remain legendary and one of the most loved pieces of music.


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## Yagami1211 (Oct 23, 2019)

What's Rey goal in the movies, like a personal motive ?


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Oct 23, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> What's Rey goal in the movies, like a personal motive ?



Getting into Kylo's pants.


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## MShadows (Oct 23, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> What's Rey goal in the movies, like a personal motive ?


Finding out her origins I guess


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 23, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> What's Rey goal in the movies, like a personal motive ?


Ending the first order


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 23, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> He was an emperor, after all.
> He probably had a harem full of the best beauties the subjugated planets had to offer.


Only the finest Twi'leks for my Palpy


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## Yagami1211 (Oct 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Ending the first order



That was her goal her whole life ?


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 23, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> That was her goal her whole life ?


No. She seems to be suffering from memory lost and only remember pieces of her childhood. I guess her goal her whole life has been self discovery.


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## Yagami1211 (Oct 23, 2019)

I was arguing with a friend a yesterday.
I told him Star Wars VII was average and didn't really get why VIII was how it was.
I said that right now, these two movies aren't really good.

He answered that I feel that way because I didn't see IX yet. That all will make sense once IX is out and that the movie team created a trilogy, and by that he meant that the story can only make sense and be completed once you see IX.

But that's kinda risky, don't you think ? Planning a trilogy is good, but if you can only start liking the first movies once you see the last ? many watchers would likely give up before that.

Then again, it's star wars.

What do you think ?


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## Zeta42 (Oct 23, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> What's Rey goal in the movies, like a personal motive ?


To go on an adventure. To fight the good fight.
It may sound bland, but it's pretty realistic. Many people in the world want nothing more than just a purpose. Which makes me wonder if Rey is actually supposed to be an avatar of all those purposeless people and make them feel good about themselves, but I doubt it.


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## Garcher (Oct 23, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> I was arguing with a friend a yesterday.
> I told him Star Wars VII was average and didn't really get why VIII was how it was.
> I said that right now, these two movies aren't really good.
> 
> ...


I think Jar Jar Abrams confirmed earlier this year that there was no big master plan for the trilogy. In fact, there were no plans at all for the movies after VII


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## Deathbringerpt (Oct 23, 2019)

They just need to make the Emperor as stupidly corny and EBUL as he's ever been and he'll automatically be the best thing about the movie. That throne was pretty badass. Don't put him on the floor groveling like a pussy screaming BUT THE SACRED SITH TEXTS.

Everything else was just boring fluff. Whoever wrote that this trailer feels like a sequel to Force Awakens and not last Jedi is absolutely right. If Kylo doesn't die to make up for all the stupid fuck ups he pulled, that'll be a terrible arc for him. And he was the only half interesting character of the series until the end of Last Jedi


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 23, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> I was arguing with a friend a yesterday.
> I told him Star Wars VII was average and didn't really get why VIII was how it was.
> I said that right now, these two movies aren't really good.
> 
> ...



Your friend managed to avoid reading about the new trilogy it seems.
It's confirmed by the directors, that they didn't have any overall plan and are winging it movie by movie.

This approach can be great, since the story grows organically through the actions of the chars.
Or like in the case of this trilogy, it can be a jumbled mess.

We have two directors that have opposing views where to go.
So we ended up with the second movie torpedoing most of the first's groundwork.
The third movie on the other hand seems to be essentially trying to ignore the existence of the second according to the trailer and leaks.

Adding to it a plot driven driven story with cardboard characters running on a method designed for a character driven story, is a surefire recipe for disaster.


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## Zeit (Oct 23, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> We have two directors that have opposing views where to go.
> So we ended up with the second movie torpedoing most of the first's groundwork.
> The third movie on the other hand seems to be essentially trying to ignore the existence of the second according to the trailer and leaks.



AKA the Dark Souls approach.


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## Pilaf (Oct 23, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> They just need to make the Emperor as stupidly corny and EBUL as he's ever been and he'll automatically be the best thing about the movie. That throne was pretty badass. Don't put him on the floor groveling like a pussy screaming BUT THE SACRED SITH TEXTS.




If he grovels on the floor, it should be because "I'm too weak. Awwww no. Don't let him...kill meh..."


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## Kuromaku (Oct 24, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> What's Rey goal in the movies, like a personal motive ?



To be a bargain bin Luke. She's meant to be a stand-in for audience members, but she's so bland and forced into a badly written potential romance like something out of a YA novel.

I hope Ian hams it up as Palpatine. He was the best part of the prequels, and he could be the best thing in the sequels if allowed to do his thing.


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## Mider T (Oct 24, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> To be a bargain bin Luke. She's meant to be a stand-in for audience members, but she's so bland and forced into a badly written potential romance like something out of a YA novel.


No.


~Gesy~ said:


> Ending the first order


Yes.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 24, 2019)

Mider T said:


> *No.*
> 
> Yes.



Hey, I think you mis-typed "Yes" as "No".


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## Mider T (Oct 24, 2019)

Nah.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> No. She seems to be suffering from memory lost and only remember pieces of her childhood. I guess her goal her whole life has been self discovery.


How plot convenient.


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## Ebisu's Shades (Oct 24, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Getting into Kylo's pants.



So, that is why the movie title is The Rise of Skywalker.

Reactions: Like 2


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## MartialHorror (Oct 24, 2019)

Ebisu's Shades said:


> So, that is why the movie title is The Rise of Skywalker.



The title would make for one of those porn parodies.


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## Pilaf (Oct 24, 2019)

Obi-Wan's character arc in the prequels - grows from a hotheaded, judgemental, overly reckless Padawan to a wise Jedi and skillful general who can make the tough decisions, like cutting Anakin down. 

Luke's character arc in the OT - grows from an impatient, daydreaming farmboy with emotional issues into a fully trained Jedi Knight and a man who can make the tough decisions, like confronting Vader and freeing his soul.

Rey's character arc in these - grows from an orphaned junk collector who lives comfortably on her own and misses her parents to...um....er…. "You don't know me MOM!" *slams door* Seems legit I guess.


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 24, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Obi-Wan's character arc in the prequels - grows from a hotheaded, judgemental, overly reckless Padawan to a wise Jedi and skillful general who can make the tough decisions, like cutting Anakin down.
> 
> Luke's character arc in the OT - grows from an impatient, daydreaming farmboy with emotional issues into a fully trained Jedi Knight and a man who can make the tough decisions, like confronting Vader and freeing his soul.
> 
> Rey's character arc in these - grows from an orphaned junk collector who lives comfortably on her own and misses her parents to...um....er…. "You don't know me MOM!" *slams door* Seems legit I guess.


Your Obi Wan description is a stretch lol

He was never reckless or hotheaded. That was left to Qui-Gon..who Obi judged for being hotheaded and reckless .


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## Pilaf (Oct 24, 2019)

I hope the characters from Rebels get to actually do something besides sit around in the background. 

I'd like to see the Ezra story get tied in with this. And see Thrawn in this. It will make the time I spend pirating this shit at least semi-decent. 

My call is that in at least one of the six cuts that Disney screened for seppuku-committing test audiences involved a twist from the EU where the Emperor wasn't really back and was just a series of holograms. They're making it too obvious, really. That's probably why they're frantically doing re-shoots right now. They have to re-subvert the un-subverted subverted expectations this time.


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## Turrin (Oct 27, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> I was arguing with a friend a yesterday.
> I told him Star Wars VII was average and didn't really get why VIII was how it was.
> I said that right now, these two movies aren't really good.
> 
> ...


Largely depends what your issue are with the first two films; whether the third can resolve them for you or how risky it is.


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## Jake CENA (Oct 27, 2019)

The only issue this franchise has is that the last 4 movies including this 5th one should have never been released


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## chibbselect (Oct 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Your Obi Wan description is a stretch lol
> 
> He was never reckless or hotheaded. That was left to Qui-Gon..who Obi judged for being hotheaded and reckless .


Obi's entire role in that movie was to sit in the ship and facepalm whenever Qui-Gon did anything.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Oct 27, 2019)

There are many complains about the Last Jedi I can get into. Snoke being pathetic is the most important and I think it might have doomed the sequel series, Rey is indeed kinda boring and I can even agree with admiral pinkhair sucking even if I just think its a plotpoint that didn't work rather than an eeevil SJW conspiracy. 

But one big complaint that always baffled me was about Rey's parents being nobodies, that for some reason people wanted her to be a Skywalker, Solo, Kenobi or Palpatine. That one never sat well with me. The Star wars universe is gigantic so Rey needing to somehow be related to the old families always seemed very silly to me. The idea she should be Kenobi's kid especially since he's his family has never been suggested to be impressive and I believe he's even the only force user in his entire family. Being a jedi also makes having kids rather complicated. I don't like the idea she's related to old Palpatine either since the idea of him having a sex drive seems....strange. I suppose he could get a kid purely for some evil plot but its till wouldn't feel satisfying. The Star Wars Universe is huge. Let it _be _huge.


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## Turrin (Oct 27, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> There are many complains about the Last Jedi I can get into. Snoke being pathetic is the most important and I think it might have doomed the sequel series, Rey is indeed kinda boring and I can even agree with admiral pinkhair sucking even if I just think its a plotpoint that didn't work rather than an eeevil SJW conspiracy.
> 
> But one big complaint that always baffled me was about Rey's parents being nobodies, that for some reason people wanted her to be a Skywalker, Solo, Kenobi or Palpatine. That one never sat well with me. The Star wars universe is gigantic so Rey needing to somehow be related to the old families always seemed very silly to me. The idea she should be Kenobi's kid especially since he's his family has never been suggested to be impressive and I believe he's even the only force user in his entire family. Being a jedi also makes having kids rather complicated. I don't like the idea she's related to old Palpatine either since the idea of him having a sex drive seems....strange. I suppose he could get a kid purely for some evil plot but its till wouldn't feel satisfying. The Star Wars Universe is huge. Let it _be _huge.


Snoke really wasn’t pathetic he was powerful enough where Rey and Kylo couldn’t touch him through normal means; bad Kylo had to beat him through strategy. I don’t think the issue is that Snoke is pathetic at all; the issue is nether of the first 2 movies address how Snoke is so powerful and where he came from. So this is something that needs to be addressed in final movie. Also while I believe that Palpatine was suppose to be the FV from the very beginning; I think Rian made a big mistake in not revealing this at the end of the TLJ and spending time setting up Palpatine return. We should have left that film knowing how and why Palpatine was back; but Rian wanted to subvert the idea that the big reveals would happen in TLJ; and I think this left too much for the final episode to explain and messed up the pacing.

—-

Rey being no one wouldn’t be a problem if she wasn’t so powerful right from the jump. But the fact that she is required some explanation as to why. I would have been fine with Rey being no one and just training her ass off to beat Kylo, but that’s not what we got, we got her being so talented that it needed an explanation.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Largely depends what your issue are with the first two films; whether the third can resolve them for you or how risky it is.



It happens. I didn't like that anime Godzilla movie, but I grew fond of that trilogy as a whole by the time I saw the 3rd movie. But yeah, it comes down to specific issues. Episode 9 can either salvage the trilogy or condemn it for good. I think J.J Abrams and Rian Johnson had wildly different ambitions. I think J.J just wanted a good start to what hopefully would be a great trilogy. I think Johnson just wanted to make a great movie and didn't care so much about the trilogy... and before anyone starts bitching, I'm not saying that's how it turned out. 

But this is why TFA is mostly set-up without pay-off. Han's death is the only big, show stopping moment of the first one and that's technically fine, if you want people to tune in for the next one. But TLJ hogged all of the pay-offs, which made for a lot of show stopping moments, but left little for the next one. It's funny how we usually bitch as executives who limit the filmmakers creative freedom, but Kennedy seems to have tried to accommodate everybody... It just seems to have backfired, as nearly every film has had a troubled production for it and the trilogy is less cohesive for it.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 27, 2019)

I give a lot of shit to the prequels, but to their credit, they seem to be the only Star Wars movies that didn't go through a troubled production. Both the OT, NT and the movies surrounding them seem like they were nightmares to make, yet I've never heard of anything dramatically stressful about doing the prequels.


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## Kuromaku (Oct 27, 2019)

If the leaks are legit, the movie might be the nail in the coffin.

Honestly though, the entire trilogy was a mess from the ground up, whether on a meta level (why go in without a cohesive plan?) or a narrative one (why rehash the OT?). It never had a chance of being on par with the originals even discounting the legend surrounding them.


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> It happens. I didn't like that anime Godzilla movie, but I grew fond of that trilogy as a whole by the time I saw the 3rd movie. But yeah, it comes down to specific issues. Episode 9 can either salvage the trilogy or condemn it for good. I think J.J Abrams and Rian Johnson had wildly different ambitions. I think J.J just wanted a good start to what hopefully would be a great trilogy. I think Johnson just wanted to make a great movie and didn't care so much about the trilogy... and before anyone starts bitching, I'm not saying that's how it turned out.
> 
> But this is why TFA is mostly set-up without pay-off. Han's death is the only big, show stopping moment of the first one and that's technically fine, if you want people to tune in for the next one. But TLJ hogged all of the pay-offs, which made for a lot of show stopping moments, but left little for the next one. It's funny how we usually bitch as executives who limit the filmmakers creative freedom, but Kennedy seems to have tried to accommodate everybody... It just seems to have backfired, as nearly every film has had a troubled production for it and the trilogy is less cohesive for it.


I think it’s more like Rian knew everyone was expecting the big reveals to be TLJ because it’s the equivalent of Empire. Disney and Rian here the complaints about TFA being too similar to a New Hope; so they wanted to subvert the idea that the reveals would be in TLJ; and instead left them for ROS. This was a mistake though as I think without revealing Palpatine involvement it didn’t leave people hyped to see ROS and it didn’t make the narrative feel very organic even if  on first watch it felt more shocking.


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I give a lot of shit to the prequels, but to their credit, they seem to be the only Star Wars movies that didn't go through a troubled production. Both the OT, NT and the movies surrounding them seem like they were nightmares to make, yet I've never heard of anything dramatically stressful about doing the prequels.


Yeah and they are also the worst films


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah and they are also the worst films



Nope.
The new trilogy is far worse.


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Nope.
> The new trilogy is far worse.


Your entitled to you opinion man; but I would rather watch any movie or the New Trilogy over Prequels.


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## Darth (Oct 28, 2019)

Any of you guys read any of the comics Snoke was showcased in?


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Your entitled to you opinion man; but I would rather watch any movie or the New Trilogy over Prequels.


And you're entitled to your shit opinions, but nothing can get any lower than the Sequel Trilogy.


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> And you're entitled to your shit opinions, but nothing can get any lower than the Sequel Trilogy.


Just the prequel one; show me Jar Jar Benkin equivalent in the sequel trilogy for starters


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Just the prequel one; show me Jar Jar Benkin equivalent in the sequel trilogy for starters



Rose surpasses Jar Jar in the cringe factor.
At least Jar Jar has the "meant for little kids" excuse.


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## Deathbringerpt (Oct 28, 2019)

Rose is eye rolling cringe. Jar Jar is pathetic in every way that matters, the child excuse is exactly that. A fucking excuse. Current Star Wars also tries to rake in young shitters.  Same shit, different smell.


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Rose surpasses Jar Jar in the cringe factor.
> At least Jar Jar has the "meant for little kids" excuse.


No she doesn’t; Jar Jar is literally a black face character from the old school minstrel show. Rose is just a character with a generic character arc that isn’t very memorable.

Your just getting swept up by popular opinion and letting the current crazy of bashing the new trilogy effect your decision making skills


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No she doesn’t; Jar Jar is literally a black face character from the old school minstrel show. Rose is just a character with a generic character arc that isn’t very memorable.


Rose is a shitty attempt at forced pro Marxist politics who not only does not move the plot (when at least Jar Jar has a purpose for his character) but hurts the advancement of other characters like Finn and even aides the bad guys thanks to her retarded move at the end with the rebel base. Jar Jar was annoying but even he was more useful to the plot than that hypocritical socialist wannabe.


Turrin said:


> Your just getting swept up by popular opinion and letting the current crazy of bashing the new trilogy effect your decision making skills


You're just being a contrarian who is intent on defending this trilogy from every type of criticism just because you got swept up in the popular opinion way back on the internet that the Prequels were the worst movies ever and now can't handle that this trilogy is worse than that in every way.


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## reiatsuflow (Oct 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No she doesn’t; Jar Jar is literally a black face character from the old school minstrel show.



Didn't the guy who played jar jar base it on a goofy bedtime character he would do for his kids, voice and everything?


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Rose is a shitty attempt at forced pro Marxist politics who not only does not move the plot (when at least Jar Jar has a purpose for his character) but hurts the advancement of other characters like Finn and even aides the bad guys thanks to her retarded move at the end with the rebel base. Jar Jar was annoying but even he was more useful to the plot than that hypocritical socialist wannabe.
> 
> You're just being a contrarian who is intent on defending this trilogy from every type of criticism just because you got swept up in the popular opinion way back on the internet that the Prequels were the worst movies ever and now can't handle that this trilogy is worse than that in every way.


Yeah that’s not anywhere near as bad as a racial stereotype from the times of segregation.

I have plenty of complaints with this Trilogy; the Rose and Finn plot in TLJ is in-fact one of my biggest complaints, but if you going to tell me it’s worse then actor getting up on stage and pushing a racist view of black people as ‘something for kids’, I’m going to tell you; your full of shit. If you want to have a serious conversation about the weakness of these trilogies fine, but you trying to push Rose being worse then Jar Jar, just means your not ready for that

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Didn't the guy who played jar jar base it on a goofy bedtime character he would do for his kids, voice and everything?


Yeah probably from a Song of the South


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah that’s not anywhere near as bad as a racial stereotype from the times of segregation.


Unless Jar Jar was outright asking for fried chicken and his mammy I don't see whatever sort of racist stereotype he had being worse than a preachy speech about "muh capitalism" and fucking up your side's chances at delaying the bad guys and casuign the deaths fo your fellow soldiers.


Turrin said:


> I have plenty of complaints with this Trilogy; the Rose and Finn plot in TLJ is in-fact one of my biggest complaints


Which you have almost never talked about beforehand.


Turrin said:


> but if you going to tell me it’s worse then actor getting up on stage and pushing a racist view of black people as ‘something for kids’, I’m going to tell you; your full of shit.


If you're going to exaggerate some slightly racist caricature as being on par with some Birth of the Nation tier nonsense to defend an actual attempt to get on stage and spurt some bullshit political message in the middle of your film, than no, I am going to say you are full of shit. 


FYI I was not the one using the 'for kids" excuse for Binks, pay attention to who you're responding to next time in the future.


Turrin said:


> If you want to have a serious conversation about the weakness of these trilogies fine, but you trying to push Rose being worse then Jar Jar, just means your not ready for that


>not seeing a character who at worst is a poor attempt at comic relief with unexpected stereotypical black behavior being worse than a character who is an actual sock puppet for a directors annoying political beliefs who ruins the character arcs of others makes me incapable of a serious conversation 

Your asinine defense of this shit only proves you are not ready.


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## Runner (Oct 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah that’s not anywhere near as bad as a racial stereotype from the times of segregation.
> 
> I have plenty of complaints with this Trilogy; the Rose and Finn plot in TLJ is in-fact one of my biggest complaints, but if you going to tell me it’s worse then actor getting up on stage and pushing a racist view of black people as ‘something for kids’, I’m going to tell you; your full of shit. If you want to have a serious conversation about the weakness of these trilogies fine, but you trying to push Rose being worse then Jar Jar, just means your not ready for that


Jar Jar was played by a Black dude tho

Its not really blackface. He was just a goofy ass alien who was incompetent. I think you overthink it


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 28, 2019)

I’m not a big fan of the  sequels but to say any character in the NT is as bad as Jar Jar Binks , shit I can’t think of any character in cinema history as bad .


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 28, 2019)

Painting Jar Jar as a racist symbol is a complete joke.

His own tribe exiled him, because he was too stupid to live.
So he can hardly be used to symbolize shit, when he can't even represent his own freaking fictional race.

He is basically a retarded alien Goofy.
And he was treated as such by everyone in the movie.
He has no deeper layer. He exists only to make little kids laugh.


As for popularity, Disney has removed Rose from merchandising unlike Jar Jar.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 28, 2019)

... Did I just get censored?

As for whether Jar Jar is a racist stereotype or not, if it gives you guys any consolation, this has been hotly debated since "The Phantom Menace" was released.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/star-wars-accused-of-race-stereotypes-1097783.html


It's a tricky thing to really discuss, as calling it "blackface" isn't correct, as that requires the performer to be a white guy pretending to be a black man, not a black man pretending to be an alien. Do I think George Lucas is racist? Absolutely not. But the article does bring up a good point that Lucas was drawing inspiration from sources that did use racist stereotypes. Another article suggests Jar Jar might've been influenced by... and this is hilarious... Disney. So if you don't like either trilogies (or just hate Jar Jar), one could argue that Disney was ruining Star Wars long before it got its hands on it. 

I doubt he ever thought about race, a classic case of unfortunate implications. But does that vindicate the character? The fact of the matter is, a lot of people were seeing racial stereotyping and were offended. Maybe Lucas or the other filmmakers were reckless. Maybe people are too touchy. We'll be debating it until the end of time.

Of course -- Jar Jar still sucks. He's an annoying character who was so hated that his role was drastically reduced in the subsequent films.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Oct 29, 2019)

It was speculated after they struck their Netflix deal, but its official now - Benioff and Weiss are not doing Star Wars anymore.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Oct 29, 2019)

EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! said:


> It was speculated after they struck their Netflix deal, but its official now - Benioff and Weiss are not doing Star Wars anymore.


Justice

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 29, 2019)




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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Unless Jar Jar was outright asking for fried chicken and his mammy I don't see whatever sort of racist stereotype he had being worse than a preachy speech about "muh capitalism" and fucking up your side's chances at delaying the bad guys and casuign the deaths fo your fellow soldiers.
> 
> Which you have almost never talked about beforehand.
> 
> ...



1. Read this:


2. I don’t talk about my complaints as much, because overall I thought the films were good; even though they weren’t great and can’t measure up to the OG Trilogy or quite frankly some of the stuff you can find in Star Wars  Rebels. And because the third film hasn’t come out yet so it’s hard to judge the Trilogy until then in terms of evaluating character arcs and how the plot at large plays out. And people such as yourself as so angry right now about the new triology failing to meet their expectations that it is hard to have a critical discussion. I mean your in hear arguing a director adding his own political message to a film is worse then making a ^ (learn some history) stereotype a major part of a film just to claim that the New trilogy is worse the everything in the prequels, which is insane 

3. How being a sock puppet for a political message worse then a sock puppet for  perpetuating a racist stereotype in your mind; I just don’t get that at all. Not to mention Phantom Menace wasted an enormous amount of time in its plot on politics as well.

3.


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2019)

Runner said:


> Jar Jar was played by a Black dude tho
> 
> Its not really blackface. He was just a goofy ass alien who was incompetent. I think you overthink it


If your tell a black dude to act like a stereotype and write his character that way it’s still racist as fuck


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> ... Did I just get censored?
> 
> As for whether Jar Jar is a racist stereotype or not, if it gives you guys any consolation, this has been hotly debated since "The Phantom Menace" was released.
> 
> ...


I don’t think Lucas is racist so much as a common way to write especially side-characters is to pick a commonly known character archetype and base a character around that. This enables the viewers to quickly identify with the character or understand what the character is about without the writer needing to devote much screening time actually fleshing the character out. For side character in a major movie involving many characters, this is obviously a solid tactic.

However unfortunately  aback in the early 2000s and before then; a shortcut people used even more was relying on racial stereotypes especially with comic relief characters; as due to underlying racism these could be even more easily identified by viewers; and more easily to related to in the comedic sense.

The creation of Jar Jar is exactly that, Lucas got lazy and took inspiration from the ‘^ (learn some history)’ racist stereotype. Whether he did it intentionally or not; that’s how he invented Jar Jar. And putting annoying racist stereotype in a film out of sheer laziness is simply way worse then Rose who was used to push an interesting, albeit out of place, political piece within TLJ


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Oct 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Snoke really wasn’t pathetic he was powerful enough where Rey and Kylo couldn’t touch him through normal means; bad Kylo had to beat him through strategy. I don’t think the issue is that Snoke is pathetic at all; the issue is nether of the first 2 movies address how Snoke is so powerful and where he came from



Sure he's powerful in the force but he uses that power to do....nothing at all really. He's an allmighty idiot who dies before he ever said or did anything of note. The only thing there ever is to suggest Snoke took over the Galaxy was the plot just saying he did without going into how or even who the heck he's even supposed to be. He's just namedropped as the big bad, lectures an edgy teenager for a bit and then gets killed without fanfare. 

Palphatine didn't exactly do much in the first trilogy either but he didn't need to. The empire was just a generic evil empire and before the prequels he was just a generic evil ruler. But more is needed from Snoke because the First Order isn't just an evil empire(though its even less interesting). Its a force that took over the galaxy after Palpatine's defeat and undid all the good work from the previous trilogy and we kinda need to know how. 


Turrin said:


> Rey being no one wouldn’t be a problem if she wasn’t so powerful right from the jump. But the fact that she is required some explanation as to why. I would have been fine with Rey being no one and just training her ass off to beat Kylo, but that’s not what we got, we got her being so talented that it needed an explanation.



I always thought ''Darkness rises and light rises to meet it'' to be a sufficient explanation. Its not particularly great but at least its something.


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Sure he's powerful in the force but he uses that power to do....nothing at all really. He's an allmighty idiot who dies before he ever said or did anything of note. The only thing there ever is to suggest Snoke took over the Galaxy was the plot just saying he did without going into how or even who the heck he's even supposed to be. He's just namedropped as the big bad, lectures an edgy teenager for a bit and then gets killed without fanfare.
> 
> Palphatine didn't exactly do much in the first trilogy either but he didn't need to. The empire was just a generic evil empire and before the prequels he was just a generic evil ruler. But more is needed from Snoke because the First Order isn't just an evil empire(though its even less interesting). Its a force that took over the galaxy after Palpatine's defeat and undid all the good work from the previous trilogy and we kinda need to know how.
> 
> ...


Snoke too over and lead the first order to as you said undid all the good work from the previous trilogy. He also corrupted Ben and with the Knights of REN destroyed the new Jedi order and pushed Luke to exile. He also easily subjugated Ren and Rey with his power despite both being noted as possessing incredible raw power in the force. I think those are a ton of accolades worth note. 


——
I agree we need to know how Snoke managed this which goes back to how did Snoke become so powerful, where his power is only exceeded by Palpatine.

—-

That explanation would work if the other movies had established this as a principal. But they hadn’t. The whole story had been about lineage or prodigious training before. It just doesn’t flow well with what the series has shown until that point.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 29, 2019)

Just out of curiosity, for those complaining about Snoke's death... 

If he had survived, can you imagine yourself not complaining anyways? People were already indifferent to the character in TFA because he seemed so much like Palpatine-light. Did his characterization in TLJ win you over prior to his death? if Palpatine's return was at least implied in TLJ, would it be better?


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Read this:


And? where is the actual evidence that Jar Jar is some extreme racist message for black people? You have provided zero sources backing up this claim and the only thing you have is just throwing Jim crow laws as if Jar Jar was literally inciting himself to get lynched or some shit. Meanwhile you have Rose "social revolution" Tico literally bitch about an evil rich society that is founded on slavery of young orphans, as if that shit makes any sense in a setting like Star Wars where Droids have been around for centuries.


Turrin said:


> 2. I don’t talk about my complaints as much, because overall I thought the films were good


So you have shit taste, proving my point.


Turrin said:


> even though they weren’t great and can’t measure up to the OG Trilogy or quite frankly some of the stuff you can find in Star Wars  Rebels.


Please there is difference between "can't measure up" and outright recycling the OT while taking away whatever accomplishment the OG cast had at all just to prop up your new one Sherlock.


Turrin said:


> And because the third film hasn’t come out yet so it’s hard to judge the Trilogy until then in terms of evaluating character arcs and how the plot at large plays out.


Bullshit with how TFA had nothing original whatsoever about it and starting the issues that would cumulate in TLJ fucking over the stories potential you are blind to think this series is going anywhere but the gutter.


Turrin said:


> And people such as yourself as so angry right now about the new triology failing to meet their expectations that it is hard to have a critical discussion.


"muh expectations" Just like this trilogy all you can do is recycle the same shit. Earth to Turrin, the only expectation people like me had were a good and exciting series of movies that paid good respect to the old cast while having them pass their legacy on to the next. We got none of that with Han becoming a loser who gets killed by his son for being a deadbeat dad, Luke becoming a failure who accomplishes nothing in his life, and Leia's Republic that she spent all her years fighting for just getting blown out with out a fight in only 30 years. Combine that with TLJ being the most boring fucking SW movie of all time and the universe repeating the same damn conflict we have seen before and there is nothing redeemable about this shit fest of a trilogy.


Turrin said:


> I mean your in hear arguing a director adding his own political message to a film is worse then making a ^ (learn some history) stereotype a major part of a film just to claim that the New trilogy is worse the everything in the prequels, which is insane


Dude, take your head straight out of your ass for a few seconds. You have given ZERO proof of Jar Jar being a racist stereotype on purpose just to wash out the real evidence right in front of you face of a real example of a character being nothing more than a political mouthpiece. It's even more ironic to see you act like you can call me insane when you are the same neanderthal that seriously argued that Palpatine was not the main villain of most of the Prequels while seriously pretending he was always meant to be the main villain of ROS.


Turrin said:


> 3. How being a sock puppet for a political message worse then a sock puppet for  perpetuating a racist stereotype in your mind


Because the other is obvious while the other is just in your deluded head.


Turrin said:


> I just don’t get that at all.


You don't get anything Turrin.


Turrin said:


> Not to mention Phantom Menace wasted an enormous amount of time in its plot on politics as well.


The politics in TPM were standard shit you would see in any serious Sci Fi work using politics like "bureaucracy is incompetent" and "the senators have gotten corrupt", neutral shit that does not hold to a specific side, they actually mattered to the plot where as Rose "eat the rich" Tico's spiel about her home planet came out of nowhere and served no fucking point to the rest of the movie


Turrin said:


> 3.


What? Did you forget to stop typing before you posted your comment?


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## Pilaf (Oct 29, 2019)

It warms my heart that the prequels are being discussed here in a serious way. The new characters and stories are such a snooze that the Law of Comparisons makes things like "the racial implications of Jar Jar Binks" relevant again.


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## Pilaf (Oct 29, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, for those complaining about Snoke's death...
> 
> If he had survived, can you imagine yourself not complaining anyways? People were already indifferent to the character in TFA because he seemed so much like Palpatine-light. Did his characterization in TLJ win you over prior to his death? if Palpatine's return was at least implied in TLJ, would it be better?




Did Darth Vader's characterization in A New Hope win people over? Yes. Because he was mysterious, designed well and apparently powerful with an unknown backstory. Snoke follows these same parameters in TFA. He became a promise unfulfilled for the sake of...I dunno..shitting on every beloved trope and myth of the originals I guess.


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> And? where is the actual evidence that Jar Jar is some extreme racist message for black people? You have provided zero sources backing up this claim and the only thing you have is just throwing Jim crow laws as if Jar Jar was literally inciting himself to get lynched or some shit. Meanwhile you have Rose "social revolution" Tico literally bitch about an evil rich society that is founded on slavery of young orphans, as if that shit makes any sense in a setting like Star Wars where Droids have been around for centuries.
> 
> So you have shit taste, proving my point.
> 
> ...


1. I literally gave you a link that explained that Jar Jar is based on the ‘^ (learn some history)’ stereotype.

2. Your taste is apparently that you prefer racism over a political message; so I’ll take it as a compliment that your tastes are different then mine.

3. The whole point of the Star Wars Trilogies is that they are suppose to rhyme and parallel one another, which means recycling concepts and ideas. That was an idea present all the way back in the OG trilogy from Lucas, with the Return of the Jedi mirror in many ways a New Hope; and then continued with various concepts in the prequels. Lucas himself has stated many times this is how he views the story of the Skywalkers.

Now I do agree that this isn’t my favorite story telling device, but it’s not something new to the New Trilogy.

3. Well I liked the new trilogy so far as adventure movies so, unless the final film really shits the bed, I won’t consider the Trilogy to be in the gutter; just disappointing when compared to the OG trilogy, but no one has ever been able to capture the magic of the orginak trilogy so far; despite many authors, directors, etc... trying their hand. Empire and New Hope are cinematic masterpieces so I don’t fault Disney or anyone else for not living up to that standard.

4. So it sounds like you, like everyone else are upset at the films because of how they handled to OG cast, and who these characters became by the time of the New Trilogy isn’t who you imagined they would be. I get it, I wasn’t very happy with how Han or Luke went out ether; as I didn’t think they got enough big moments in ether of those films to warrant their deaths. But I also didn’t think they were handled horribly ether; and certainly not enough to run the film for me. If you disagree that’s fine, I’m not going to tell you what to like or dislike and what ruins a film for you. But then you need to also acknowledge that the way the prequels handled Vader could also ruin those movies for someone worse then how the New Trilogy handles Luke/Han (which is definitely the case for me).

5. Palpatine was always the main villain of the new series; if your not going to believe the people actually working on the film or how it makes sense that the main villain of the Skywalker Saga isn’t going to be the main villain at the end of that Saga that’s not my problem....

6. You saying that Jar Jar is a racial stereotype is in my head ignores the fact that countless people and news outlets covered that story when the Phantom menace came out and it being a huge topic; obviously whether Lucas intended Jar Jar to be that way doesn’t make his design of Jar Jar that has made many people feel that he is a racist stereotype any better; it’s still a horrible character design choice much more regrettable then designing a character like Rose around a political message


7. Have you not read or watched many fantasy stories? Because the idea of the rich populating off war and subjugation of the masses is pretty dam typical in these genres


8. Did you forget to stop being a clown when you typed your response; guess not lol


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## Atem (Oct 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If your tell a black dude to act like a stereotype and write his character that way it’s still racist as fuck



13%.

52%.

Stay mad, hoe.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I literally gave you a link that explained that Jar Jar is based on the ‘^ (learn some history)’ stereotype.


You just posted a description of Jim Crow laws, not evidence that Jar Jar was made by Lucas with a specific intention to be a "^ (learn some history)".


Turrin said:


> 2. Your fastest is apparently that you perfect racism over a political message; so I’ll take it as a compliment that your tastes are different then mine.


You have yet to prove Jar jar was a racist metaphor to being with, so no, all you are saying if you are fine with a hamfisted political message but get offended by a black character playing an alien in a way that offends your fragile notions of what a "^ (learn some history)" is.


Turrin said:


> 3. The whole point of the Star Wars Trilogies is that they are suppose to rhyme and parallel one another, which means recycling concepts and ideas.


Wrong, when Lucas made similarities to OT in the prequels they were not carbon copies like the ST was. Maul was not a literal Vader copy like Kylo was, Nute Gunray was not a Tarkin copycat like Hux was, the main Trade Federation battleship was not just a planet busting super weapon like Starkiller base was, etc. There were actual new ideas in the Prequels, there is nothing original in the ST.


Turrin said:


> That was an idea present all the way back in the OG trilogy from Lucas, with the Return of the Jedi mirror in many ways a New Hope; and then continued with various concepts in the prequels. Lucas himself has stated many times this is how he views the story of the Skywalkers.


Hilarious how you people keep harping on about the Skywalkers when the Sequel trilogy has done nothing but spit on their legacy and even shove them to the wayside like they did to Luke.


Turrin said:


> Now I do agree that this isn’t my favorite story telling device, but it’s not something new to the New Trilogy.


"new" Who the hell is arguing new? The ST biggest problem is that nothing about it is new. It's all the same shit.


Turrin said:


> 3."hur dur it just could never compare guys"


Of course they would not measure up when all they did was copy shit from the OT while removing any achievement from the OG cast.


Turrin said:


> 4. So it sounds like you, like everyone else are upset at the films because of how they handled to OG cast, and who these characters became by the time of the New Trilogy isn’t who you imagined they would be.


And it sounds like you, like every other apologist for these train wreck films, have come up with you own bullshit reasoning for why the OT cast should be OOC and be failures in some contrived way to make these flicks not seem like a spit in the face of what they accomplished.


Turrin said:


> But I also didn’t think they were handled horribly ether


Like I said, bullshit contrived reasoning.


Turrin said:


> But then you need to also acknowledge that the way the prequels handled Vader could also ruin those movies for someone worse then how the New Trilogy handles Luke/Han (which is definitely the case for me).


Not even close. Vader being kind of a emo crybaby in the past does not remove the badass he became in the future and people know for all he suffered in the past he more than redeemed himself saving his son and (at the time) the galaxy from Palpatine and the empire. When we see what Anakin becomes by the end of the PT we at least have the OT to remind us he succeeds in the end despite all the tragedy. Han/Luke do not get that attribute, when you see what becomes of them after ROTJ you only see them as failures whose every accomplishment is squandered and all they fought for pointless since a new empire rises, the Jedi die before they even begin again, the Republic gets taken down in barely 3 decades and now Palpatine coming back makes not only what Luke died for meaningless, but even Vader, Yoda, and Obi-Wan along with every single Jedi and soldier for the Republic and Rebels, meaningless. There was no fucking point to the previous trilogies except to now make the new cast look better because 'they will finish it the right way". Complete garbage.


Turrin said:


> 5. Palpatine was always the main villain of the new series


Wrong, you got told down this shit beforehand by us once before and you have never brought anything that proved it after. You're full of it.


Turrin said:


> 6. You saying that Jar Jar is a racial stereotype is in my head ignores the fact that countless people and news outlets covered that story when the Phantom menace came out and it being a huge topic


"muh people and news outlets" who gives a shit? Some random assholes on the internet and TV do not impress me. Unless you have actual evidence of Jar Jar being stated to be purposely racist by either Lucas or his actor(who is black in case you forgot) you are not convincing me.


Turrin said:


> obviously whether Lucas intended Jar Jar to be that way doesn’t make his design of Jar Jar that has made many people feel that he is a racist stereotype any better


Fuck their feelings, I need facts. You have none.


Turrin said:


> it’s still a horrible character design choice much more regrettable then designing a character like Rose around a political message


Nah, one at least is an Alien that is supposed to look non-human while the other looks like a poster girl for the PRC during ww2.


Turrin said:


> 7. Have you not read or watched many fantasy stories? Because the idea of the rich populating off war and subjugation of the masses is pretty dam typical in these genres


In the way it interrupts TLJ and forces itself down our throats while making zero sense in the story and setting? Not as far as the SW movies were beforehand from what I see.


Turrin said:


> 8. Did you forget to stop being a clown when you typed your response; guess not lol


Take your own advice slick, your the one not paying attention enough to edit your own posts.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The creation of Jar Jar is


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


>


So because a black guy played him isn’t  racist....


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So because a black guy played him it is racist....


Glad we got what you wanted to say down so simply.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Oct 29, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Did Darth Vader's characterization in A New Hope win people over? Yes. Because he was mysterious, designed well and apparently powerful with an unknown backstory. Snoke follows these same parameters in TFA. He became a promise unfulfilled for the sake of...I dunno..shitting on every beloved trope and myth of the originals I guess.



Yeah but Vader was cool from the beginning. Snoke seemed to get lukewarm reactions in TFA. It's like people suddenly changed their minds on him after he died.


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## Turrin (Oct 29, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Glad we got what you wanted to say down so simply.


Glad you have no understanding of how racial profiling works


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 29, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, for those complaining about Snoke's death...
> 
> If he had survived, can you imagine yourself not complaining anyways? People were already indifferent to the character in TFA because he seemed so much like Palpatine-light. Did his characterization in TLJ win you over prior to his death?



Obviously, if you rewrite his end, you should have also make other changes like giving him some actual characterization.
His death was just the cherry on top of his pointlessness.
Every single accomplishment of his happens of screen. You can't just say he was great you need to show it.

Vader was built up from the instant he appeared when he strolled his way through the rebel ship combined with the fear and awe the people around him showed.
The emperor on the other hand was elevated on how Vader reacted to him.
Simple but effective.

They tried to mirror this in the NT.
But Kylo quickly ended up shitting on his intro scene by acting as an insecure teen.
You can be a conflicted badass like Vader, but there is no such thing as an insecure badass.
Therefore an insecure teen isn't really an effective endorsement for a higher threat.





MartialHorror said:


> if Palpatine's return was at least implied in TLJ, would it be better?



How is building up to an event ever worse than not doing any groundwork at all?


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## MartialHorror (Oct 29, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Obviously, if you rewrite his end, you should have also make other changes like giving him some actual characterization.
> His death was just the cherry on top of his pointlessness.
> Every single accomplishment of his happens of screen. You can't just say he was great you need to show it.
> 
> ...



Ah, good point. 




> How is building up to an event ever worse than not doing any groundwork at all?



I was referring to Palpatine's return in relation to Snoke's death. Obviously Palpatine's return would've been better if it was implied in the last one, but I was asking if Snoke's abrupt death would've been easier to swallow if the movie ended with some sort of return from Palpatine. But your other answer more or less negated the question anyway.


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## Lurko (Oct 29, 2019)

Jar Jar is the shit.


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## Atem (Oct 29, 2019)

Lurker said:


> Jar Jar is the shit.


Also, he is probably Darth Plagueis.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 29, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I was referring to Palpatine's return in relation to Snoke's death. Obviously Palpatine's return would've been better if it was implied in the last one, but I was asking if Snoke's abrupt death would've been easier to swallow if the movie ended with some sort of return from Palpatine. But your other answer more or less negated the question anyway.



I see.

It's pretty hard to make his death easier to swallow just by Palpatine returning, imo.
The only way I could possible see it helping, is if his presence is shown towards the beginning of TLJ.

If they manage to portray him as an unwitting pawn soon enough, then his "pointlessness" might be offset.
A tool needs no purpose, kind of thing.

A later appearance in the movie with how little development Snoke had, just comes off as literal filler until Palpatine shows up.


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## Lurko (Oct 29, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Also, he is probably Darth Plagueis.


Factzzz


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## Atem (Oct 29, 2019)

Oh, but he is a Muun the philistines would say.

Well, I say they underestimate the power of the dark side.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 29, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Oh, but he is a Muun the philistines would say.
> 
> Well, I say they underestimate the power of the dark side.


Who says he cannot go through species reassignment surgery?

The Dark Side is a pathway to many abilities some considered to be......unnatural.


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## Atem (Oct 29, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Who says he cannot go through species reassignment surgery?
> 
> The Dark Side is a pathway to many abilities some considered to be......unnatural.


It's actually an elaborate illusion that no one can see past because he has clouded the minds of everyone in the galaxy.


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## MShadows (Oct 29, 2019)

If that idiot Risn Johnson hadn’t killed off Snoke then Abrams wouldn’t have had to bring back Palpatine.

Nothing ever implied that Palpatine had survived, his return is an asspull and last minute idea to have a significant antagonist. This also shits of Anakin’s sacrifice and redemption act. 

Ofc, Palpatine is dimensions above Snoke in terms of character (not like Snoke had much of a chance to develop anyway).


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## Pilaf (Oct 29, 2019)

I kinda feel like they could have explored Sith Alchemy and Darth Plagueis a bit without bringing Ian back, as great as he is. 

also

*Spoiler*: __


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## MartialHorror (Oct 29, 2019)

MShadows said:


> If that idiot Risn Johnson hadn’t killed off Snoke then Abrams wouldn’t have had to bring back Palpatine.
> 
> Nothing ever implied that Palpatine had survived, his return is an asspull and last minute idea to have a significant antagonist. This also shits of Anakin’s sacrifice and redemption act.
> 
> Ofc, Palpatine is dimensions above Snoke in terms of character (not like Snoke had much of a chance to develop anyway).



I actually disagree with this, if only because the new movie needs something to market itself off of. Snoke the character wouldn't likely sell any tickets. After Carrie Fischer died, they needed an established draw. I think even if Snoke lived, they would've worked in Palpatine somehow.


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## ~VK~ (Oct 30, 2019)

finn was a bigger insult than jar jar binks imo. they straight up deceived us with finn. jar jar binks was just a stupid character nobody was ever supposed to take serious from the get go.

yet what disney did with finn was downright malicious. gladly showcasing and marketing the hell out of finn everywhere front and center, gave him a unique character background full of interesting potential and oh wait never mind he's just another token black guy there for some cheap laughs. a former child soldier who defects to the rebels you say? well that's sounds like a potentially compelling storyline can't wait to see how that unfolds aaand sike niqqa he's just the loser janitor who scrubs the floors(which btw is his go to contribution to the plot). 

he was bad in the TFA and somehow got worse and more irrelevant in TLJ. his role? adventuring with cringe token character #2: asian female addition.   

if jar jar binks is the old school stereotyping than finn is that subtle modern day Get Out liberal version of it.


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## ~VK~ (Oct 30, 2019)

disney shitted in our mouths with finn and then turned around and expected a pat on the back for his mere inclusion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~VK~ (Oct 30, 2019)

if you can't tell i'm still extremely butthurt after 4 whole years


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## MrPopo (Oct 30, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> finn was a bigger insult than jar jar binks imo. they straight up deceived us with finn. jar jar binks was just a stupid character nobody was ever supposed to take serious from the get go.
> 
> yet what disney did with finn was downright malicious. gladly showcasing and marketing the hell out of finn everywhere front and center, gave him a unique character background full of interesting potential and oh wait never mind he's just another token black guy there for some cheap laughs. a former child soldier who defects to the rebels you say? well that's sounds like a potentially compelling storyline can't wait to see how that unfolds aaand sike niqqa he's just the loser janitor who scrubs the floors(which btw is his go to contribution to the plot).
> 
> ...


The way they marketed Finn, I thought he was gonna be jedi


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## Pilaf (Oct 30, 2019)

But AHA. Surprise! They _subverted your expectations_. If we weren't such plebs we'd love that abusive behavior.


----------



## Atem (Oct 30, 2019)

Finn was butt ugly and a cowardly bastard whose only good moment was stolen from him by an asian who surprise, surprise couldn't drive.

The person I cared about was Rama from the Raid, and they only used him in one fucking scene. Where he doesn't fight anyone.

I will never forgive TFA for that.


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## MShadows (Oct 30, 2019)

Finn is maybe the biggest waste of the sequels. 

Which is sad because John Boyega seems like a pretty cool guy and he's got the presence, but those fucks over at Disney didn't want to develop his character. 

They should've just had Kylo Ren bifurcate him back in that forest in TFA so at least he could die with some dignity. Which also brings me to another major issue I have with the sequels: the fact that lightsabers turned into fuckin normal swords since all they do is leave cuts and nothing more. 

Remember when lightsabers cut off fuckin limbs? No... now you can get a lightsaber slash across your fuckin back and face and you'll only get a small scar that'll heal in about a week and you're as good as new!

Dumb fuckin writers!


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 30, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Finn was butt ugly and a cowardly bastard whose only good moment was stolen from him by an asian who surprise, surprise couldn't drive.
> 
> The person I cared about was Rama from the Raid, and they only used him in one fucking scene. Where he doesn't fight anyone.
> 
> I will never forgive TFA for that.


I still can't get over how they hyped up the Raid actors and did fucking nothing with them. We were hoping they could have some badass fighting scenes or at least help with the choreography but it seems all they did was just appear as nameless mooks and die because the fight scenes in TFA were honestly underwhelming as fuck and unimpressive. Than again what I see from NuWars is that wasting away talent in their M.O. Having the experienced veteran actor Von Sydow only appear in the intro to TFA as some big character and than die off, putting Mads Mikkelsen in a plain good guy role that could be played by anyone when he is well known for playing a great villain, giving Del Toro the most forgettable role ever in a Star Wars movie to the point no one even talks about who the fuck his character was because he was so pointless(in fact I dare any of you to tell me if you do or if you even remembered him being there at all with how unmemorable he was).

I have never seen so much squandered talent than I have with Disney's Star Wars.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 30, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Remember when lightsabers cut off fuckin limbs? No... now you can get a lightsaber slash across your fuckin back and face and you'll only get a small scar that'll heal in about a week and you're as good as new!
> 
> Dumb fuckin writers!



Remember this scene with the reinforced blast doors?


Make lightsabers great again!



NostalgiaFan said:


> I still can't get over how they hyped up the Raid actors and did fucking nothing with them. We were hoping they could have some badass fighting scenes or at least help with the choreography but it seems all they did was just appear as nameless mooks and die because the fight scenes in TFA were honestly underwhelming as fuck and unimpressive. Than again what I see from NuWars is that wasting away talent in their M.O. Having the experienced veteran actor Von Sydow only appear in the intro to TFA as some big character and than die off, putting Mads Mikkelsen in a plain good guy role that could be played by anyone when he is well known for playing a great villain, giving Del Toro the most forgettable role ever in a Star Wars movie to the point no one even talks about who the fuck his character was because he was so pointless(in fact I dare any of you to tell me if you do or if you even remembered him being there at all with how unmemorable he was).
> 
> I have never seen so much squandered talent than I have with Disney's Star Wars.



Del Toro was in the movie?


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 30, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Del Toro was in the movie?


Exactly.


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## Pilaf (Oct 30, 2019)

Remember the Knights of Ren?


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Oct 30, 2019)

A bit off topic but am I the only one who thinks that general Grievous is a really weird character? In the movies he's just a glorified miniboss who's said to be a coward and who has a quirky cough. But outside the movies he's apparently the ultimate baddass who can fight multiple Jedi at once and who apparently even the likes of Mace, Dooku and even Sidious are a little wary of.

What writers ever watched the movies and decided that the _miniboss _had to be made into the ultimate warrior?


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 30, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> A bit off topic but am I the only one who thinks that general Grievous is a really weird character? In the movies he's just a glorified miniboss who's said to be a coward and who has a quirky cough. But outside the movies he's apparently the ultimate baddass who can fight multiple Jedi at once and who apparently even the likes of Mace, Dooku and even Sidious are a little wary of.
> 
> What writers ever watched the movies and decided that the _miniboss _had to be made into the ultimate warrior?


This is why.

Try watching the series where he first appeared if you need anymore context.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Oct 30, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> This is why.
> 
> Try watching the series where he first appeared if you need anymore context.



Oh that part I know. That's why I'm aware he's considered a supreme baddas. I'm just confused as to _how _the writers of that cartoon and aditional works came up with the idea of making the side villain so powerful. The contrast between the all powerful Grievous and joke villain Grievous is just so weird that Grievous being baddass is just an inherently confusing idea to me. 

They kinda try to justify his weak film showing by saying Mace mortally wounded him right before the film but even that stems from the writers having to solve the problem of their battlegod eventually turning into a miniboss.


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## Catalyst75 (Oct 30, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> What writers ever watched the movies and decided that the _miniboss _had to be made into the ultimate warrior?



"Dark Empire" turned Palpatine into a dark god who could summon Force wormholes to destroy starships or transport someone halfway across the galaxy, and fed on the life force of tens of billions of people to augment his power. When his signature scene of Force power in "Return of the Jedi" was blasting Luke with Force Lightning.

Legends vastly augmented the setting's overall power in comparison to what you see in the films. Best way to separate the difference is to follow Lucas' own words and treat Legends as a parallel universe to the films.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Oct 30, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> "Dark Empire" turned Palpatine into a dark god who could summon Force wormholes to destroy starships or transport someone halfway across the galaxy, and fed on the life force of tens of billions of people to augment his power. When his signature scene of Force power in "Return of the Jedi" was blasting Luke with Force Lightning.
> 
> Legends vastly augmented the setting's overall power in comparison to what you see in the films. Best way to separate the difference is to follow Lucas' own words and treat Legends as a parallel universe to the films.



But that's Palpatine, the main villain, the great evil in the universe, the great Sith lord and space Hitler. Him I can see being powerful, he's always been a big deal and his role earned him such power. A better analogy of Boba Fett the random bounty hunter would suddenly become this extremely powerful fighter and....oh wait they did that too.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 30, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Oh that part I know. That's why I'm aware he's considered a supreme baddas. I'm just confused as to _how _the writers of that cartoon and aditional works came up with the idea of making the side villain so powerful. The contrast between the all powerful Grievous and joke villain Grievous is just so weird that Grievous being baddass is just an inherently confusing idea to me.
> 
> They kinda try to justify his weak film showing by saying Mace mortally wounded him right before the film but even that stems from the writers having to solve the problem of their battlegod eventually turning into a miniboss.



I think part of it is just potential. The only thing about Grievous that ever stood out to me was that shot of him revealing his collection of light sabers, with either a statement or implication that he took him off the jedi he'd slain. This suggests that at some point, he was a genuine bad-ass... and didn't he put up a good fight against Obi Wan? So even if he was cowardly and eccentric, he'd still be a bad-ass within the context of the film.  This makes people curious. This makes writers want to do more with him. Because he can potentially be a draw. 

This is why Darth Maul was resurrected in the extended media... and now the movies, I guess... because he looks cool and has the coolest light saber, yet is such a wasted character that people want to see more of him. They want to learn more about him. So writers now have room to explore the character and perhaps fulfill those wishes.

Bobba Fett also was popular for this reason, as he was pretty existed to be a joke character... In fact, it's kind of funny that we all like him at all, as he got punked FAR worse than Snoke ever did. But we wanted to see more, so Star Wars obliged us, making him deadlier than what was probably originally intended.

Palpatine doesn't really count, as the extent of his powers was never really shown in the OT. He obviously dwarfed Luke and probably Vader in power, although Vader seems to think that together they could defeat him (and they kind of did). But for all we knew, he could've had the power of a god. The prequels do show more of what he could do, but presumably he'd be more powerful by the time the OT happened (if only in his ability to control the force).


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## Catalyst75 (Oct 30, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> But that's Palpatine, the main villain, the great evil in the universe, the great Sith lord and space Hitler. Him I can see being powerful, he's always been a big deal and his role earned him such power.



Who got pitched down a reactor shaft and died in an eruption of energy in the film.

It was nearly a decade later that someone decided to reveal he came back in a clone body and possessed UNLIMITED POWER!!! all along.



Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> A better analogy of Boba Fett the random bounty hunter would suddenly become this extremely powerful fighter and....oh wait they did that too.



Also Darth Maul, though he got cut in half and has only one speaking line in the whole of Phantom Menace, as I recall. That said, he's more justifiable due to having killed a main character on-screen (even though surviving bifurcation really stretches credibility).



MartialHorror said:


> I think part of it is just potential.



There is this, though I would say that it is possible to go overboard with what that potential could be. We knew Palpatine was Vader's master. We knew Palpatine was responsible for turning Anakin. We knew Palpatine could use Force Lightning and completely overwhelm Luke. 

But that was the extent of what we had seen on-screen in the Original Trilogy. Quite a massive leap to go from Force Lightning to draining the life from an entire planet and summoning Force-made wormholes.

It took until the "Mortis arc" in the _Clone Wars _to see any Force wielders _*on-screen*_ that powerful and then some.

I've been hearing whispers that the _Rise of Skywalker_ and the planned Project Luminous will show the true extent of the Force in the new canon, so we'll have to wait and see what happens with that. I've heard speculation the dagger Rey was seen holding in the final trailer _*might *_be the Dagger of Mortis, so imagine if _Rise of Skywalker _Palpatine managed to ascend to the same level as the Father, Son and Daughter.


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## MartialHorror (Oct 30, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> Who got pitched down a reactor shaft and died in an eruption of energy in the film.
> 
> It was nearly a decade later that someone decided to reveal he came back in a clone body and possessed UNLIMITED POWER!!! all along.
> 
> ...



Star Wars back then was different than Star Wars now. The fandom was willing to accept most of what they were given. These days, they freak out over little details that shouldn't matter. So giving Palpatine UNLIMITED POWER could be done back then. But if it was never done and they introduced the idea in 2019, the fandom would lose their shit.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 30, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Oh that part I know. That's why I'm aware he's considered a supreme baddas. I'm just confused as to _how _the writers of that cartoon and aditional works came up with the idea of making the side villain so powerful. The contrast between the all powerful Grievous and joke villain Grievous is just so weird that Grievous being baddass is just an inherently confusing idea to me.
> 
> They kinda try to justify his weak film showing by saying Mace mortally wounded him right before the film but even that stems from the writers having to solve the problem of their battlegod eventually turning into a miniboss.


Because all George gave writers were a basic description of him being a droid general  who collected the lightsabers of fallen jedi which made him seem like a badass so guys like Genndy went full on with that and presented him as such. Calling his wounding by Mace to be an excuse is just wrong since it makes perfect sense back than for why he was so much weaker and we saw he still took a lot out of Obi-Wan to finally put down in the film. It's the 3d clone wars cartoon that made him a joke, everything before than at least tried to make him a serious threat. Also ignore Catty, he is an idiot who pretends he knows shit about Star Wars.


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## Pilaf (Oct 30, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> "Dark Empire" turned Palpatine into a dark god who could summon Force wormholes to destroy starships or transport someone halfway across the galaxy, and fed on the life force of tens of billions of people to augment his power. When his signature scene of Force power in "Return of the Jedi" was blasting Luke with Force Lightning.
> 
> Legends vastly augmented the setting's overall power in comparison to what you see in the films. Best way to separate the difference is to follow Lucas' own words and treat Legends as a parallel universe to the films.




Lucas considered Dark Empire to be among the best of the EU, for some reason.


I mean, the Thrawn Trilogy exists. That and literally 80% of the EU is better than Dark Empire but okay George.


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## Catalyst75 (Oct 30, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Star Wars back then was different than Star Wars now. The fandom was willing to accept most of what they were given. These days, they freak out over little details that shouldn't matter. So giving Palpatine UNLIMITED POWER could be done back then. But if it was never done and they introduced the idea in 2019, the fandom would lose their shit.



Back then, there were also no plans for a Sequel Trilogy so the Legends writers could do whatever they want as long as they didn't delve too much into the Prequel era. But even what little delving into the Prequel era they did eventually got contradicted by the movies.

Cinema was also a different thing, back then. Imagine if Star Wars Episode V released today and the present day audiences learned for the first time that Vader was Luke's father. I can almost hear the debates about whether it's a good or bad example of "subverted expectations".

A fun fact about that revelation is that it wasn't until the second draft of "Empire Strikes Back" that Lucas decided Vader and Anakin would be one and the same. He made this change because it fixed certain problems he had in the first draft with Anakin. Anakin was meant to be a Ghost and teacher to Luke, but the presence of Yoda and Obi-Wan made his presence unfeasible in practice. Merging Anakin with Vader not only solved that problem, but was the key turning point that made Star Wars into what it is today.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 30, 2019)

I love watching morons like Catty act as if they are any kind of expert on SW when his ass got busted for getting obvious shit wrong and he never paid any attention to the franchise until Nuwars started.


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## ~Gesy~ (Oct 30, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> So wait, they still exist? I just assumed Disney forgot all about them.


They're on the movie poster


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## Deathbringerpt (Oct 30, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Because all George gave writers were a basic description of him being a droid general  who collected the lightsabers of fallen jedi which made him seem like a badass so guys like Genndy went full on with that and presented him as such. Calling his wounding by Mace to be an excuse is just wrong since it makes perfect sense back than for why he was so much weaker and we saw he still took a lot out of Obi-Wan to finally put down in the film. It's the 3d clone wars cartoon that made him a joke, everything before than at least tried to make him a serious threat. Also ignore Catty, he is an idiot who pretends he knows shit about Star Wars.



Because George didn't have anything for the character beyond the basic description. There's nothing more about Grievous than we saw in the movie. When Genndy took that basic description and made a badass interpretation of Star Wars, Lucas hated it. Because of course he would, it's actually good. Grievous is pathetic in any other movie or show he showed up.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Oct 30, 2019)

I loved that clone wars depiction of Grievous.
The whole cartoon was great.


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## Pilaf (Oct 31, 2019)

Happy Sithmas

Reactions: Like 2


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## chibbselect (Oct 31, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> I loved that clone wars depiction of Grievous.
> The whole cartoon was great.


member that scene when he went into stealth-dog-mode and squished a Jedi who looked suspiciously like Shaggy?

Genndy knew what fans wanted


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Nov 2, 2019)

One thing the sequel trilogy has consistently struggled with is world building. As such I don't have very high hopes for the last installment to fix this. 

Blaming Rian Johnson seems to be all the rage but it was Abrams who first messed up on this front. It was just an incredibly fatal decision to return to the whole ''rebel vs stormtrooper'' set up of the original trilogy. From a marketing standpoint it might be smart since its a visual cue that the new movies distance themselves from the ''dark days'' of the prequel era and it appeals to nostalgia, but from a narrative standpoint its downright nonsensical for the good guys to fight for the rebels again. The rebellion already _won, _the new republic already exists and if anything its the First Order rebelling against the galaxy. The prequel trilogy might have been uneven in quality and the extended universe might have been a mess but at least the galaxy was always evolving. By insisting the good guys are rebels again the galaxy is essentially devolving, as if a reset button was pressed and the first three movies never even happened. what exactly changed since A New Hope? Decades after the Deathstar its still a quirky band of outmatched rebels facing off against an oppressive empire with super weapons. The new republic is mentioned to be a thing but never do the movie give any indication that such an institution actually existed. 

The bad guys get even less development. Its just a bunch of baddies cosplaying as the empire who somehow manages to take over the galaxy and undo all Luke's work merely because the opening narration says they did. The First Order having taken over the galaxy makes as little sense as the New Republic suddenly being the rebellion again. The First Order likely won't be getting expanded upon because with Palpetine's return they have pretty much stopped being important. The new movie just doesn't have the time to both detail Palpatine's return and Kylo's redemption while also finally explaining what the First Order even is and why they are supposed to be a big deal. The window for that explanation was missed two movies ago.


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## MShadows (Nov 2, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> One thing the sequel trilogy has consistently struggled with is world building. As such I don't have very high hopes for the last installment to fix this.
> 
> Blaming Rian Johnson seems to be all the rage but it was Abrams who first messed up on this front. It was just an incredibly fatal decision to return to the whole ''rebel vs stormtrooper'' set up of the original trilogy. From a marketing standpoint it might be smart since its a visual cue that the new movies distance themselves from the ''dark days'' of the prequel era and it appeals to nostalgia, but from a narrative standpoint its downright nonsensical for the good guys to fight for the rebels again. The rebellion already _won, _the new republic already exists and if anything its the First Order rebelling against the galaxy. The prequel trilogy might have been uneven in quality and the extended universe might have been a mess but at least the galaxy was always evolving. By insisting the good guys are rebels again the galaxy is essentially devolving, as if a reset button was pressed and the first three movies never even happened. what exactly changed since A New Hope? Decades after the Deathstar its still a quirky band of outmatched rebels facing off against an oppressive empire with super weapons. The new republic is mentioned to be a thing but never do the movie give any indication that such an institution actually existed.
> 
> The bad guys get even less development. Its just a bunch of baddies cosplaying as the empire who somehow manages to take over the galaxy and undo all Luke's work merely because the opening narration says they did. The First Order having taken over the galaxy makes as little sense as the New Republic suddenly being the rebellion again. The First Order likely won't be getting expanded upon because with Palpetine's return they have pretty much stopped being important. The new movie just doesn't have the time to both detail Palpatine's return and Kylo's redemption while also finally explaining what the First Order even is and why they are supposed to be a big deal. The window for that explanation was missed two movies ago.


Snoke himself is the embodiment of the entire Sequels series: wasted potential via shit execution.


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## Karma (Nov 2, 2019)

Is it confirmed Rey is Palpatine's kid or not?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 2, 2019)

Karma said:


> Is it confirmed Rey is Palpatine's kid or not?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Granddaughter according to the spoilers, which the trailer has more or less validated as true.


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## Karma (Nov 2, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Granddaughter according to the spoilers, which the trailer has more or less validated as true.


Damn, JJ cucked RJ


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 2, 2019)

So much for being a nobody.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Kylo is connected to the Vader Bloodline while she's connected to Palpy's.


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## reiatsuflow (Nov 2, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



So much for anyone can be a jedi too.

Just saying, finn could have saved that subplot if rey and kylo are both lineage.



Maybe they'll make rose a jedi or something and she can save finn again with her force powers.


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## Karma (Nov 2, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> So much for being a nobody.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Makes sense why Kylo has been her bitch the whole trilogy.

It's like poetry, it rhymes


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 2, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Finn is Mace Windu's grandson


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## reiatsuflow (Nov 2, 2019)

They do seem to be the only two black people in the universe, don't they 

edit-
completely forgot about lando


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 2, 2019)

Why spoiler tag unconfirmed information?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Nov 2, 2019)

Last time some users spoiled aspects of the previous movie by casually mentioning them here just a few days after the red carpet took place and with all these "according to the leaks from Reddit" that I continue reading around, it's just for precaution.


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## reiatsuflow (Nov 2, 2019)

Yeah sorry about that. Wasn't even thinking twice about it.


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## Suigetsu (Nov 2, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Snoke himself is the embodiment of the entire Sequels series: wasted potential via shit execution.


And shitty wannabe ideas.


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## Pilaf (Nov 3, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




"Anyone can be a Jedi" is still a thing. It's always been a thing in the EU and in Disney Canon now. 

If it weren't a thing, broom kid at the end of TLJ wouldn't be a thing, and Luke wouldn't have been able to form a New Jedi Order in both continuities. 

Thing is, though, there's two major caveats. You have to have sufficient force potential, and you have to start your training relatively young to maximize effectiveness. The latter is more about mental strength/resisting the Dark Side than anything, though. Older people like Kyle Katarn can definitely grow quickly in strength and technique. 

Some people really wanted Finn to be a Jedi because for some reason they bought into the narrative that there "are no Jedi that look like me", and I wonder what those people even look like if they think Finn looks like them but Mace Windu didn't.


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## MShadows (Nov 3, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> "Anyone can be a Jedi" is still a thing. It's always been a thing in the EU and in Disney Canon now.
> 
> If it weren't a thing, broom kid at the end of TLJ wouldn't be a thing, and Luke wouldn't have been able to form a New Jedi Order in both continuities.
> 
> ...


The Rise of Skywalker's biggest twist will be Rose's reveal as an undercover Jedi


*Spoiler*: __ 




Before she trips and impales herself through her lightsaber


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## Pilaf (Nov 3, 2019)

No joke, there's like 40 Rose Rico figures on clearance for like 40 cents at my local Wal-Mart.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Nov 3, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The Rise of Skywalker's biggest twist will be Rose's reveal as an undercover Jedi
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



She was preparing for the rise of Sith Lord Jar Jar Binks.


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## MShadows (Nov 3, 2019)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> She was preparing for the rise of Sith Lord Jar Jar Binks.


Will she use the LOVE side of the Force?


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## Suigetsu (Nov 3, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> No joke, there's like 40 Rose Rico figures on clearance for like 40 cents at my local Wal-Mart.


40 cents? wtf, that sure is expensive.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 4, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> 40 cents? wtf, that sure is expensive.



I'm not even going to waste my two cents on this matter.


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## BlazingInferno (Nov 4, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The Rise of Skywalker's biggest twist will be Rose's reveal as an undercover Jedi
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


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## Suigetsu (Nov 4, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> I'm not even going to waste my two cents on this matter.


40 cents for a rose tico figure is extortion.


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## Garcher (Nov 4, 2019)

i wouldn't even take that waste of space if they paid me for it


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## Pilaf (Nov 4, 2019)

I kinda really feel bad for the poor actress they roped into that hot mess of a role, though. I'm sure when she first heard she was gonna be in Star Wars she imagined something cooler. Hell, TLJ even made me hate that hot chick with the nice butt from Jurassic Park by turning her into a Grade-A Cunt.


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## BlazingInferno (Nov 4, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I kinda really feel bad for the poor actress they roped into that hot mess of a role, though. I'm sure when she first heard she was gonna be in Star Wars she imagined something cooler. Hell, TLJ even made me hate that hot chick with the nice butt from Jurassic Park by turning her into a Grade-A Cunt.



You mean that one chick from Fallen Kingdom? Why the hell was the bitch so pissed off in the movie? Unnecessarily angry throughout the movie, what were they trying to prove?

EDIT: Nevermind, I realized you were talking Laura Dern. I don’t know why I was thinking of Fallen Kingdom, that chick I was talking about wasn’t in the movie


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## MartialHorror (Nov 4, 2019)

BlazingInferno said:


> You mean that one chick from Fallen Kingdom? Why the hell was the bitch so pissed off in the movie? Unnecessarily angry throughout the movie, what were they trying to prove?



Er, was Laura Dern in "Fallen Kingdom"?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 4, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I kinda really feel bad for the poor actress they roped into that hot mess of a role, though. I'm sure when she first heard she was gonna be in Star Wars she imagined something cooler. Hell, TLJ even made me hate that hot chick with the nice butt from Jurassic Park by turning her into a Grade-A Cunt.



Yeah, she has my sympathy same as kid Anakin and the jar jar actor.
They aren't to blame for the role they were playing.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 4, 2019)

The harassment that girl faced showed the toxicity of this fanbase.

A bunch of fat, ugly incels calling her fat and ugly because she's in a movie they don't like.


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## BlazingInferno (Nov 4, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> The harassment that girl faced showed the toxicity of this fanbase.
> 
> A bunch of fat, ugly incels calling her fat and ugly because she's in a movie they don't like.



Shhhh Gesy, the fat ugly incels don’t like being called fat ugly incels.


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## MShadows (Nov 5, 2019)

I’ve never seen any of her movies before, but you have to be fucked in the head to attack the actors themselves for trying to enact a shit script written by an imbecile director. 

Admiral Holdo was just a stand-in bad character for Disney to push their BS agenda through her. But to transpose the characteristics of said character to her actress, Kelly Marie Tran, based on solely hate for the character is retarded.


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## Amol (Nov 5, 2019)

Eternal problem with some of the Star Wars fandom is that they are obsessed with franchise. Somewhere along the alone they stopped treating Star movies as you know just some movies. 
They take anything happened(or didn't happened) in movies as personal insult to them. 
The sheer hate actors, directors and anybody involved in this franchise nowadays gets is ridiculous. Everybody just gotta chill a bit. Don't watch a movie if you don't like it. Infact pretty much stop talking about it and give your attention to something you do like. Not much point to spend so much time and energy just to hate something.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 5, 2019)

Anybody read Martin Scorsese's newest remarks on Marvel? This part caught my attention the most, as it doesn't just reflect on Marvel, but seemingly on every blockbuster, including Star Wars.

"They are sequels in name but they are remakes in spirit, and everything in them is officially sanctioned because it can’t really be any other way. That’s the nature of : , , vetted, modified, revetted and remodified until they’re ready for consumption."



I don't necessarily agree with anything and I actually think audiences are partially responsible for these kinds of movies being reluctant to take risks, but he has some really good points.


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## Pilaf (Nov 5, 2019)

I have a theory about how Palpatine can gain the high ground in the new movie.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 5, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Admiral Holdo was just a stand-in bad character for Disney to push their BS agenda through her.



Because she was part of the "hotshot pilot/headstrong protagonist breaks the rules and save the day" story-line that wound up being ruthlessly deconstructed?

On one hand, yes, Holdo could have told Poe what her plan was. On the other hand, Poe did the exact same thing. He hid the secret mission he sent Rose and Finn on from everyone outside of those he decided were trustworthy. In Poe's case, not only did his not end up working, but wound up endangering Holdo and Leia's plan in the process.

That story-line would not change if Holdo had been a male admiral instead. You'd still have Poe being insubordinate towards a superior, he'd still let his emotions get the better of him when the admiral doesn't explain everything to him on the spot, and so on.


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## NostalgiaFan (Nov 5, 2019)

"muh deconstructions" is a shit defense for a character being retarded and causing more damage to her side than the one she is actually fighting.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 5, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> Because she was part of the "hotshot pilot/headstrong protagonist breaks the rules and save the day" story-line that wound up being ruthlessly deconstructed?
> .



If by ruthlessly deconstructed, you mean "an amateur hour attempt to shoehorn crappy identity politics that are actually pretty sexist into a story by a rank amateur not fit to polish camera lenses" then sure...It's an act of monstrous dishonesty to pretend Holdo was a deconstruction though..she was a mouthpiece.

Lets not pretend that the middle aged nitwit from the planet of sobbing hipsters is William Munny with tits.


edit- Part of me thinks I should explain who William Munny is, because you lack the emotional maturity and depth to watch a film like Unforgiven but since you wouldn't I don't feel like it.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 5, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> If by ruthlessly deconstructed, you mean "an amateur hour attempt to shoehorn crappy identity politics that are actually pretty sexist into a story by a rank amateur not fit to polish camera lenses" then sure...It's an act of monstrous dishonesty to pretend Holdo was a deconstruction though..she was a mouthpiece.
> 
> Lets not pretend that the middle aged nitwit from the planet of sobbing hipsters is William Munny with tits.
> 
> ...



lol, you measure the "emotional maturity and depth" of a person based on the movies they watch? 

Your example is also a curious one, as most people who watch "Unforgiven" are probably either going to be partial to westerns or Eastwood himself, whose movies are almost always made for mass consumption. I myself watched it when I was like 10 because I practically grew up with Clint Eastwood movies and I've revisited it many times over the years; even owning a copy... and yet I assume you don't think I have this "emotional maturity and depth" you speak of. 

If a movie could ever measure an "emotional maturity and depth", it would be something that requires you to be patient, requires you to really think and the pay-off is purely an emotional one... Something you would only watch because of this alleged... emotional maturity and depth... I dunno, like maybe "The Magnificent Ambersons" or "Ikiru". But even those don't really work, as people might just see them because they like the directors.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 5, 2019)

Amol said:


> Eternal problem with some of the Star Wars fandom is that they are obsessed with franchise. Somewhere along the alone they stopped treating Star movies as you know just some movies.
> They take anything happened(or didn't happened) in movies as personal insult to them.



The franchise also has hundreds of books, comics, and dozens of games to its name. George Lucas never got too involved with all the other licensed works, and has even been quoted describing the licensing world as a "parallel universe" to the films, and later the _Clone Wars_ TV show. The rest of the licensed works had a hand in shaping much of the fan-base, not just the films alone.

There's no problem with the Legends canon as a whole and lots of people have good reason to love and enjoy it, but the problem arises from the section of the fandom that seems to think a new canon is an affront to their existence and to the Legends canon. A new canon means that many fan-favorites suddenly got new histories and stories that differed greatly from their Legends counterparts, with some characters no longer being canon.

For my part, I am grateful that the old EU helped Star Wars thrive for these decades, and I was very happy to learn that Thrawn was able to migrate from the EU into the new canon.

As for the new canon and the Sequel Trilogy, it is still relatively new and the Sequel Trilogy has yet to be concluded, but I have enjoyed what I've seen so far of it and am excited to see how it ends.


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## NostalgiaFan (Nov 5, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> George Lucas never got too involved with all the other licensed works, and has even been quoted describing the licensing world as a "parallel universe" to the films, and later the _Clone Wars_ TV show.


This is all bullshit by the way, not only does Catty have zero proof of any line like this but Lucas was directly involved in not only big event games like TFU but even certain EU character deaths happening like Anakin Solo because he wanted it. Far from "never got too involved".


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## Fang (Nov 5, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> "Anyone can be a Jedi" is still a thing. I*t's always been a thing in the EU* and in Disney Canon now.



Nope.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2019)

Anyway my only two cents on the recent comments made by Catalyst since as usual he's talking with exceptional ignorance and outright disingenuous claims. 

Lucas was _*heavily involved*_  with scores of different stories, projects, writers/authors, and works in the Expanded Universe. The Force Unleashed series, the New Jedi Order books which he heavily exercised his right as Editor-in-Chief (including swapping Jacen Solo dying for Anakin Solo), the Dark Empire graphic novel series, directly line editing and supervising Stover on the Revenge of the Sith novelization, as well as writing the prologue for Shatterpoints, the Shadows of the Empire multimedia project, why Anakin had the gigantic facial scar from the Clone Wars tie-in/Republic comic mini-series and novels in the movie, multiple Jedi High Council masters being killed off and replaced in the comics like Yaddle dying between Episode I and Episode II, just off the top of my head. 

I can list tons more examples here and I acknowledge its absolute nerd shit but the idea this guy is legitimately lying again on the basis of Lucas' direct involvement in the Expanded Universe is mind-numbing with how he always attempts to pull the cloak on people's eyes and make up a false narrative.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 6, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> lol, you measure the "emotional maturity and depth" of a person based on the movies they watch?



No, but the ability to discern between a superficial attempt at pandering by someone who stopped his own movie midway through a really tense game of cat and mouse to rant about two topics that had nothing to do with anything...and say....Colonel Kurtz would certainly be a mark of emotional maturity. Or that is to say Catalysts absolute lack of ability to feel insulted by the base attempt to get get him to identify with a character by creating a shallow caricature that maligns and infantilizes his self professed political views would be a hallmark of a lack of said trait.




MartialHorror said:


> Your example is also a curious one, as most people who watch "Unforgiven" are probably either going to be partial to westerns or Eastwood himself, whose movies are almost always made for mass consumption.



I'm not sure what's more insane, that you think Unforgiven is a superficial movie made for bargain bin hunters or the fact that you just tried to argue Grand Torrino, Letters from Iwo jima, flags of our fathers and fucking Hereafter are films made for "mass consumption".

Both are absolutely insane stances to take, but one is profoundly more absurd than the other. Unforgiven rivals the Searchers as the greatest western ever made, is easily one of the best films ever made and its such a brutal deconstruction of the films that made Eastwood a giant, he wore the boots he used on Rawhide, dressed like Lee Van Clief and even made his grand finale obscured in the shadows to say nothing of Little Bill.

Eastwood _*retired*_ the Genre when he made Unforgiven,  Rian Johnson...insulted one of the largest audiences in cinematic history...

The other is just 



MartialHorror said:


> I myself watched it when I was like 10 because I practically grew up with Clint Eastwood movies and I've revisited it many times over the years; even owning a copy... and yet I assume you don't think I have this "emotional maturity and depth" you speak of


Evidently you don't given the argument you just tried to make to smokescreen your knee jerk defense of a poster that does nothing but harass, bait and provoke half the users in this thread in an attempt to have them banned to silence views he dislikes.


MartialHorror said:


> l
> If a movie could ever measure an "emotional maturity and depth", it would be something that requires you to be patient, requires you to really think and the pay-off is purely an emotional one... Something you would only watch because of this alleged... emotional maturity and depth...



So Unforgiven then...Gotcha.

Granted this is all in relation to William Munny being the brilliant deconstruction Catty allegedes Vice Admiral tumblr is whereas holdo is...the shitty "I attend Sundance so therefor I know about subversion" version.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 6, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> No, but the ability to discern between a superficial attempt at pandering by someone who stopped his own movie midway through a really tense game of cat and mouse to rant about two topics that had nothing to do with anything...and say....Colonel Kurtz would certainly be a mark of emotional maturity. Or that is to say Catalysts absolute lack of ability to feel insulted by the base attempt to get get him to identify with a character by creating a shallow caricature that maligns and infantilizes his self professed political views would be a hallmark of a lack of said trait.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude... Dude... listen...

I am not saying "Unforgiven" is anything less than a masterpiece. My point is that Clint Eastwood is one of the most popular and enduring filmmakers in the industry and "Unforgiven" is -- like you say -- one of the best westerns of all time. Most people who see it are simply partial to one and the other... Now whether or not they appreciate it to the fullest is another argument.

And yes, most of his movies are made for mass consumption and I don't know what's wrong with that. It's why most of his movies are so successful. They're usually thrillers, westerns or some form of action. I say this as someone who loves his work. Kurosawa, Ford, Spielberg and many other master filmmakers also usually deliberately aimed for wider audiences and that ambition didn't stop them from making a lot of classics.


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## Pilaf (Nov 6, 2019)

Fang said:


> Nope.



Yep. Literally always, almost from day one, anyone can be born with Force potential and be trained as a Jedi. It's only stupid nu-fans who seem to think it runs in families or some shit. I mean, it obviously does but it doesn't _have t_o. It just sort of manifests because of reasons. Ask the Whills I guess.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Yep. Literally always, almost from day one, anyone can be born with Force potential and be trained as a Jedi. It's only stupid nu-fans who seem to think it runs in families or some shit. I mean, it obviously does but it doesn't _have t_o. It just sort of manifests because of reasons. Ask the Whills I guess.



Except you didn't say anyone "who can be born with the Force" though.



Pilaf said:


> "Anyone can be a Jedi" is still a thing. It's always been a thing in the EU and in Disney Canon now.



So still nope.


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## Pilaf (Nov 6, 2019)

Ok boomer.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Ok boomer.



You are welcome zoomer.


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2019)

MShadows said:


> If that idiot Risn Johnson hadn’t killed off Snoke then Abrams wouldn’t have had to bring back Palpatine.
> 
> Nothing ever implied that Palpatine had survived, his return is an asspull and last minute idea to have a significant antagonist. This also shits of Anakin’s sacrifice and redemption act.
> 
> Ofc, Palpatine is dimensions above Snoke in terms of character (not like Snoke had much of a chance to develop anyway).


Snoke appearance is an ass pull to begin with unless you explain his origin with him being an apprentice of Palpatine, after Anakin’s death. Which will likely be the explanation.

I honestly think Palpatine dying the way he did in the OG makes no sense based on what we were shown he could do in the Prequels. So if anything the Prequels rendered that whole scene nonsensical to start with. So Palpatine surviving makes more sense to me after the prequels then him dying and being defeated there.


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## MShadows (Nov 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Snoke appearance is an ass pull to begin with unless you explain his origin with him being an apprentice of Palpatine, after Anakin’s death. Which will likely be the explanation.
> 
> I honestly think Palpatine dying the way he did in the OG makes no sense based on what we were shown he could do in the Prequels. So if anything the Prequels rendered that whole scene nonsensical to start with. So Palpatine surviving makes more sense to me after the prequels then him dying and being defeated there.


There's no explanation whatsoever regarding Snoke. He's just a wasted character that has already been forgotten and buried. They won't even bother with him lol


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2019)

MShadows said:


> There's no explanation whatsoever regarding Snoke. He's just a wasted character that has already been forgotten and buried. They won't even bother with him lol


The explanation is that he’s probably going to be one of the Darkside Acolytes from the Unknown regions in the novels. Most likely these are the guys that Palpatine sought out in the novels; and they are the ones that he went to and took care of him after his defeat on the Death Star. 

It’s a way for Disney to be like yeah Palpatine is the strongest Sith ever and an amazing Darkside user, but there are ton of other Darkside users out there for future films like Snoke.


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## Son Of Man (Nov 7, 2019)

They're going to make Poe and Finn gay


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You being but hurt isn’t a debunk



And you making your own fanfiction to fill the gaping holes, doesn't exonerate anything for the rest of us.


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> And you making your own fanfiction to fill the gaping holes, doesn't exonerate anything for the rest of us.


Speculating on whats going to be revealed in the final film isn’t writing a fanfic. 

I don’t disagree that if Snoke is never explained that it’s a hole in the story. 

You guys seem to think I don’t have issues with the New Trilogy; which isn’t true; I just believe the issues with the New Trilogy are the same as the issues with Return of the Jedi; and are still better then the Prequels.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 7, 2019)

Seems to me that they're moving on from Snoke tbh. 

Maybe they'll expand on him outside the lore like they have with Boba Fett.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 7, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Seems to me that they're moving on from Snoke tbh.
> 
> Maybe they'll expand on him outside the lore like they have with Boba Fett.



We already know he's connected to the Attendants who charted the Unknown Region routes the Imperial remnants used to establish the First Order, and in the Thrawn trilogy those same Attendants aided the Grysk. 

There's also no reason not to expand upon him, given the position he did have in the Trilogy as the primary corrupter of Kylo Ren.


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## Fang (Nov 7, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Seems to me that they're moving on from Snoke tbh.



Was TLJ not a clue?


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 7, 2019)

Fang said:


> Was TLJ not a clue?


Sidious was the clue for me tbh 

Funny to say..but Snoke doesn't really fit in the narrative anymore and has no purpose.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 7, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> We already know he's connected to the Attendants who charted the Unknown Region routes the Imperial remnants used to establish the First Order, and in the Thrawn trilogy those same Attendants aided the Grysk.
> 
> There's also no reason not to expand upon him, given the position he did have in the Trilogy as the primary corrupter of Kylo Ren.



Still doesn't help the movies though.
This info isn't known to the majority of viewers.


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## TrueG 37 (Nov 7, 2019)

Overwatch said:


> Well, we are now at the point where fanboys are trying to retroactively praise The Fucking Force Unleashed in light of the new Jedi Fallen Order game.
> 
> This fandom fucking sucks and it deserves every ounce of dogshit it gets served.


Lol what kind of shit taste is this?


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## Fang (Nov 7, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Still doesn't help the movies though.
> This info isn't known to the majority of viewers.



Its ironic to me that he thinks the majority of casual audience goers to movies would care about the novels or comics to fill in the gaps when ultimately the EU under Disney still is relegated to the sidelines despite the whole belief of "everything is canon unless it contradicts" spiel.


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## Son Of Man (Nov 7, 2019)

When is the china trailer


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## Atem (Nov 7, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> When is the china trailer



Who wants to bet they censored Finn already for it?


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## dr_shadow (Nov 7, 2019)

This will be opening against Ip Man 4 in China. Will probably hurt the global opening weekend.


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## Son Of Man (Nov 7, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Who wants to bet they censored Finn already for it?


You mean in the poster?


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## Son Of Man (Nov 7, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> This will be opening against *Ip Man 4* in China



Is Dony Yang in this one?


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## dr_shadow (Nov 7, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Is Dony Yang in this one?



Donnie Yen is, yeah. I've made a  about it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atem (Nov 7, 2019)

Oh boy oh boy, if the leaks are true and they probably are since they named dropped details thet already revealed this is going to be so bad it destroys Disney's Star Wars in way that were deemed impossible before.


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## Son Of Man (Nov 7, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Is Dony Yang in this one?


Nice
I remember liking these movies. The donnie ones at least.


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## Son Of Man (Nov 7, 2019)

Woops


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## MartialHorror (Nov 7, 2019)

Haven't these movies been bombing in China anyway? At this point, I think no one expects this to stand a chance against "Ip Man 4" in China.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 8, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Still doesn't help the movies though.
> This info isn't known to the majority of viewers.



No one knew Palpatine's full back-story either when he was pitched down a reactor shaft in Episode VI in the 80s, only that he was responsible for Darth Vader's fall and was the leader of the Galactic Empire. Just as people knew Snoke was a Dark Side Force user who led the First Order, and was responsible for the fall of Kylo Ren, before Kylo Ren turned on him.

It took the Prequels - starting 16 years after _Return _- to fill in the blanks left by the Original.

If the Original Trilogy didn't need to explain every detail when it first released, the same is true for the Sequel Trilogy. And if fans want to learn more about Snoke, they can from current canon materials and will learn more from future materials. 

Snoke had his role in Kylo Ren's character development, and that was fulfilled. Heck, I'd argue it was the right call to kill him in Episode VIII. It gives free reign for the build-up of Palpatine's appearance in Episode IX as advertised in all the trailers without plaguing people with questions of what his return means for Snoke.


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## Kuromaku (Nov 8, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> No one knew Palpatine's full back-story either when he was pitched down a reactor shaft in Episode VI in the 80s, only that he was responsible for Darth Vader's fall and was the leader of the Galactic Empire. Just as people knew Snoke was a Dark Side Force user who led the First Order, and was responsible for the fall of Kylo Ren, before Kylo Ren turned on him.
> 
> It took the Prequels - starting 16 years after _Return _- to fill in the blanks left by the Original.
> 
> ...



That's not how storytelling works. At all.

Palpatine didn't need a backstory in the OT because everything we needed to know about him was there from the start. We knew that there was an Emperor ruling an evil Empire. We knew that he was Vader's master. We thus knew that he represented everything the good guys were fighting against, be it the Dark Side, of which he was Yoda's dark reflection, or the Empire, which he ruled. That was literally all we needed to know. Episode IV was Square 1, and the prequels were Square 0, filling in the blanks that could be filled optionally.

Snoke, OTOH, came out of nowhere to ruin the happy ending of the OT. We need to know who he is and how this happened, because we're long past Square 1. You can't just reverse the efforts of the heroes in the next installments without some context.


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## Mider T (Nov 8, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> That's not how storytelling works. At all.
> 
> Palpatine didn't need a backstory in the OT because everything we needed to know about him was there from the start. We knew that there was an Emperor ruling an evil Empire. We knew that he was Vader's master. We thus knew that he represented everything the good guys were fighting against, be it the Dark Side, of which he was Yoda's dark reflection, or the Empire, which he ruled. That was literally all we needed to know. Episode IV was Square 1, and the prequels were Square 0, filling in the blanks that could be filled optionally.
> 
> Snoke, OTOH, came out of nowhere to ruin the happy ending of the OT. We need to know who he is and how this happened, because we're long past Square 1. You can't just reverse the efforts of the heroes in the next installments without some context.


That wasn't everything we needed to know then.  Some chameleon man in dark robes who was somehow able to turn a strong, good guy bad isn't an explanation.


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## Kuromaku (Nov 8, 2019)

Mider T said:


> That wasn't everything we needed to know then.  Some chameleon man in dark robes who was somehow able to turn a strong, good guy bad isn't an explanation.



Yeah, it totally was. Some bad guy turned the father of the hero to the Dark Side. That's all the backstory we need in addition to what is implied by what is said (Obi-Wan and Yoda's duplicity) and what is unsaid (Vader's behavior when the past and truth are brought up).

Also, plantains are better than bananas.


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## MShadows (Nov 8, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Who wants to bet they censored Finn already for it?


They cut him from the movie altogether lol


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 8, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> That's not how storytelling works. At all.
> 
> Palpatine didn't need a backstory in the OT because everything we needed to know about him was there from the start. We knew that there was an Emperor ruling an evil Empire. We knew that he was Vader's master. We thus knew that he represented everything the good guys were fighting against, be it the Dark Side, of which he was Yoda's dark reflection, or the Empire, which he ruled. That was literally all we needed to know. Episode IV was Square 1, and the prequels were Square 0, filling in the blanks that could be filled optionally.
> 
> Snoke, OTOH, came out of nowhere to ruin the happy ending of the OT. We need to know who he is and how this happened, because we're long past Square 1. You can't just reverse the efforts of the heroes in the next installments without some context.



Right there in the opening crawl of Episode VII, we were told remnants of the Galactic Empire became the First Order. Over the course of the movie, we learn the following: 


Snoke is the one who leads the First Order, indicating he was the one who gathered those remnants under himself.
We learn that Snoke was the one who corrupted Kylo Ren to the Dark Side, leading to the destruction of Luke's new Jedi Order, and the disappearance of Luke. 
By the end, we know who he is and we know what happened to lead to the new conflict. Episode VIII showed us Snoke's motives for corrupting Kylo Ren. While he is dead by the end of Episode VIII, I anticipate that Episode IX will help wrap up the remaining loose ends. 

_Because that's how story-telling works. _


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## Kuromaku (Nov 8, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> Right there in the opening crawl of Episode VII, we were told remnants of the Galactic Empire became the First Order. Over the course of the movie, we learn the following:
> 
> 
> Snoke is the one who leads the First Order, indicating he was the one who gathered those remnants under himself.
> ...



Did you actually pay attention to anything I wrote earlier?

We're given a massive time skip that outright negates everything the heroes worked toward. We need to know why that happy ending was denied. We don't know who Snoke is, and we don't know how he corrupted Ben, only that he did. There's a woeful lack of context not helped by Disney not having a set plan, and made worse by Rian outright saying that Snoke was unimportant.

That is most definitely not how storytelling works. At. All.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Haven't these movies been bombing in China anyway? At this point, I think no one expects this to stand a chance against "Ip Man 4" in China.



Rogue One didn't do as good as Disney projected it in China.
TLJ was a flop over there.
Solo did even worse and got pulled like a month earlier then expected despite the contract deal between Disney and the China Film Association.

Meanwhile Fast&Furious and Bayformers do fine.


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## Son Of Man (Nov 8, 2019)

They're doing star wars kabuki in the near future


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## Son Of Man (Nov 8, 2019)




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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 8, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> Right there in the opening crawl of Episode VII, we were told remnants of the Galactic Empire became the First Order. Over the course of the movie, we learn the following:
> 
> 
> Snoke is the one who leads the First Order, indicating he was the one who gathered those remnants under himself.
> ...



No. Kuromaku already gave you the reason, but let me simplify it for you.

The original trilogy was the beginning, with nothing before it.
The reason sparse information worked there, is because it served as a basic setting.
It's the equivalent to the "once upon a time in a distant land, there lay a kingdom . . ." fairy tales use.
Hell, the long ago in a galaxy far away should be more than enough to see the parallel.
You don't need to know more for a setting.

The prequels were set before the OT, so they could keep this format effectively.
However the New trilogy is different. Its not set into a distant future separating the setting from the OT.

Because the "setting" isn't just a setting here. It is a continuation of the OT's entire plotline.
Our last exit point was a celebrating galaxy, ushering in the revival of the republic.
The next entry was basically the new rebels fighting an empire again.
Putting "Something happened" isn't enough to make this leap work.

Transitions are an important part of storytelling and this one just doesn't mesh well.



Yeah, people need to have some time to dissociate any new movie from this travesty of a trilogy.
Otherwise it will be fighting a mount Everest sized uphill battle from the beginning.

Time will grant new attempts some leeway, if they can channel some good will Feige has earned through his handling of the MCU.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 8, 2019)

@Kuromaku is probably the best poster here, even if we're technically on different sides. I enjoy the NT, but I can't think of a single point he's made I've been able to mount a worthwhile defense for. Bonus points for remaining civil. 

I actually really want  this movie to be released ASAP so we can find newer things to argue over. I feel like this thread is stuck in a time loop. We're still arguing over "The Last Jedi". 

Good or bad, exceeds financial expectations to falls short of them, "The Rise of Skywalker" isn't even among my most anticipated films of the year (even now, "Doctor Sleep" and "Knives Out" get me more excited), but I just want to know. I'm tired of speculating, lol.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2019)

I don't know how anyone is interested in anything Rian Johnson is directing, new/original IP or not. 


I like how the tweet makes no mention that Resistance for all intents and purposes was essentially canned and canceled after two seasons. Yeah "concentrating" on TV productions with diminishing returns or thinking The Mandalorian on Disney XD is somehow going to salvage what has happened in the last two years is endless optimism if that's what Disney thinks will mend the Star Wars situation.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 8, 2019)

Fang said:


> I don't know how anyone is interested in anything Rian Johnson is directing, new/original IP or not.



I'm a huge murder mystery fan, especially of Agatha Christie or at least Christie-inspired works. The world needs more of them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I'm a huge murder mystery fan, especially of Agatha Christie or at least Christie-inspired works. The world needs more of them.



Yeah. I just wish they went for more obscure ones.
Instead of just remaking the major ones.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 8, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Yeah. I just wish they went for more obscure ones.
> Instead of just remaking the major ones.



Yeah, you would think she only wrote a small handful of stories based on what they make movies out of. Oh well, I guess beggars can't be choosers...


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## MartialHorror (Nov 8, 2019)

You know, I always thought it was silly when people would say "The Last Jedi" killed their love for Star Wars, as it seems absurd that a single movie could do that. I hated the prequels, but I still saw them and was excited when the franchise announced its revival. 

But then I look at "Terminator: Dark Fate". "Terminator: Genysis" inspired a hatred within me usually reserved for clipshow sequels. Even the OKish reviews can't inspire me to go see it. I'll probably eventually get around to it when its more readily available, but I feel burned out by its franchise, even though it's not like the sequels come out frequently. Maybe if "Terminator 3" or "Salvation" were worthy of their hype, I could've just shrugged "Genysis" off as a misfired experiment, but a las... "Genysis" ruined Terminator for me. 

I guess everyone has that 'one' franchise.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 8, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Did you actually pay attention to anything I wrote earlier?
> 
> We're given a massive time skip that outright negates everything the heroes worked toward. We need to know why that happy ending was denied. We don't know who Snoke is, and we don't know how he corrupted Ben, only that he did. There's a woeful lack of context not helped by Disney not having a set plan, and made worse by Rian outright saying that Snoke was unimportant.
> 
> That is most definitely not how storytelling works. At. All.



Does "paying attention" to anything you say mean not having my own opinion and just saying yes to everything you complain about?

Because I did pay attention to what you wrote earlier. I paid attention, and decided to express my _own opinion._ Another part of that opinion is that _the story is not yet finished. _We still have Episode IX left to see, and what I have seen from the trailers so far indicates it will answer the lingering questions of what happened in the intervening years between Episode VI and VII. 

The trailers so far have pointed towards Palpatine's machinations being the root cause, and explaining his return will mean giving us answers. That is why I'm looking forward to seeing _*how the story ends*_, rather than acting like the people writing off a trilogy they haven't seen the end to as a "travesty" because "it's not _their_ Star Wars".


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I'm a huge murder mystery fan, especially of Agatha Christie or at least Christie-inspired works. The world needs more of them.



I see.




Kuromaku said:


> Did you actually pay attention to anything I wrote earlier?
> 
> We're given a massive time skip that outright negates everything the heroes worked toward. We need to know why that happy ending was denied. We don't know who Snoke is, and we don't know how he corrupted Ben, only that he did. There's a woeful lack of context not helped by Disney not having a set plan, and made worse by Rian outright saying that Snoke was unimportant.
> 
> That is most definitely not how storytelling works. At. All.



Of course he didn't. He doesn't have a refutation or actual response that coherently or logically explains the inconsistency and lack of connection bridging (or rather the lack of) between The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi. He doesn't care there is absolutely zero oversight between Rian Johnson disregarding every single mystery box and sub-plot that JJ Abrams stocked into its predecessor or the fact that for all intents and purposes we are at the destination point in a trilogy with no actual semblance of a cognizant plot to bring everything together. 

That is why Catalyst thinks he somehow has a stance that logically falls back on texts scrawls since there is nothing else he can offer to what you have said. Who is Snoke? Irrelevant. Why is he around? Irrelevant. Is he a character? Not even this since he's now been retroactively delegated into being as much a plot device as Maz.


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## Pilaf (Nov 8, 2019)




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## Son Of Man (Nov 8, 2019)

3 streaming shows in development
Also that filoni interview said he had some projects coming in the future


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## MShadows (Nov 8, 2019)

The only SW product I’m interested in right now is the upcoming Obi-Wan TV Series. 

Ewan McGregor (who is arguably the best thing about the prequels) will be reprising his role and I couldn’t be happier because I absolutely loved his Obi-Wan.

However, since this is Disney, I’m afraid they’ll fuck up Obi-Wan beyond repair with some dumb shit.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 8, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The only SW product I’m interested in right now is the upcoming Obi-Wan TV Series.
> 
> Ewan McGregor (who is arguably the best thing about the prequels) will be reprising his role and I couldn’t be happier because I absolutely loved his Obi-Wan.
> 
> However, since this is Disney, I’m afraid they’ll fuck up Obi-Wan beyond repair with some dumb shit.



Maybe they'll have him get addicted to space drugs... and then he'll become a space junkie.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 8, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The only SW product I’m interested in right now is the upcoming Obi-Wan TV Series.
> 
> Ewan McGregor (who is arguably the best thing about the prequels) will be reprising his role and I couldn’t be happier because I absolutely loved his Obi-Wan.
> 
> However, since this is Disney, I’m afraid they’ll fuck up Obi-Wan beyond repair with some dumb shit.


I may watch the upcoming boba Fett one. I love a good bounty hunter story.

Also Obi Wan life seems boring post- order 66.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The only SW product I’m interested in right now is the upcoming Obi-Wan TV Series.
> 
> Ewan McGregor (who is arguably the best thing about the prequels) will be reprising his role and I couldn’t be happier because I absolutely loved his Obi-Wan.
> 
> However, since this is Disney, I’m afraid they’ll fuck up Obi-Wan beyond repair with some dumb shit.



They have already fucked up with The Mandalorian when a recent interview with the lead actor a few weeks ago had him admitting it was going to heavily involve the formation and origins of the First Order, which no one cares about, and that it would heavily reference current day politics.


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## reiatsuflow (Nov 8, 2019)

I mean the OG trilogy had dumb politics too, it's just less noticeable in later eras. If there's some first order founding commenting on trump or radicalism, decades on it will just look like generic storytelling about generic extremism. 

Like parts of last jedi will always look stupid because they're stupid in a substantial way, but the political stuff will probably just be window dressing.


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## Kuromaku (Nov 8, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> Does "paying attention" to anything you say mean not having my own opinion and just saying yes to everything you complain about?
> 
> Because I did pay attention to what you wrote earlier. I paid attention, and decided to express my _own opinion._ Another part of that opinion is that _the story is not yet finished. _We still have Episode IX left to see, and what I have seen from the trailers so far indicates it will answer the lingering questions of what happened in the intervening years between Episode VI and VII.
> 
> The trailers so far have pointed towards Palpatine's machinations being the root cause, and explaining his return will mean giving us answers. That is why I'm looking forward to seeing _*how the story ends*_, rather than acting like the people writing off a trilogy they haven't seen the end to as a "travesty" because "it's not _their_ Star Wars".



Paying attention actually means acknowledging what I had to say and either agreeing to or refuting it. Instead, you're sidestepping the argument entirely and falling back on the old "respect my opinion" defense. Here's the thing, people should respect others' rights to their own opinions, but the opinions themselves may not be worthy of respect because they're not rooted in anything resembling reason. Furthermore, your argument holds even less water due to your immediately not only sidestepping the point, but also strawmanning the other side because you lack a proper point to make.


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## dr_shadow (Nov 8, 2019)

Right call in my opinion.

There were 16 years between Jedi and Phantom, and then 10 years between Sith and Force. They should continue that pace and let at least another decade lapse before bringing Star Wars back again.

Alternatively, start the next trilogy at the franchise's 50th anniversary in 2027. That gives us eight years to forget The Last Jedi.

Come to think of it, there hasn't been a decade without Star Wars:

1970's: Hope (1977)
1980's: Empire (1980), Jedi (1983)
1990's: Phantom (1999)
2000's: Clones (2002), Sith (2005)
2010's: Force (2015), Last (2017), Rise (2019)

If Disney has noticed that pattern, they might want to make another one no later than 2029, so that there will have a Star Wars film in the 2020's too.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 9, 2019)

Fang said:


> They have already fucked up with The Mandalorian when a recent interview with the lead actor a few weeks ago had him admitting it was going to heavily involve the formation and origins of the First Order, which no one cares about, and that it would heavily reference current day politics.


Meh. Could still be good.


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## dr_shadow (Nov 9, 2019)




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## Mider T (Nov 9, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The only SW product I’m interested in right now is the upcoming Obi-Wan TV Series.
> 
> Ewan McGregor (who is arguably the best thing about the prequels) will be reprising his role and I couldn’t be happier because I absolutely loved his Obi-Wan.
> 
> However, since this is Disney, I’m afraid they’ll fuck up Obi-Wan beyond repair with some dumb shit.


The best thing about the prequels is the introduction of Midichlorians.


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## MShadows (Nov 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> The best thing about the prequels is the introduction of Midichlorians.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Nov 9, 2019)

Fang said:


> They have already fucked up with The Mandalorian when a recent interview with the lead actor a few weeks ago had him admitting it was going to heavily involve the formation and origins of the First Order, which no one cares about, and that it would heavily reference current day politics.



Doesn't matter if no one cares about it. Fact remains that the First Order being absolutely nothing is one of the great weaknesses of the new trilogy. If the Mandalorian changes that then that's a great improvement. 

The empire had a place to be generic because it was a generic oppressive empire but the First Order has much less room being generic because then it means Luke and Co were all beaten to a pulp by some wacky stormtrooper cosplayers instead of an actual faction with actual traits and actual goals.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Doesn't matter if no one cares about it. Fact remains that the First Order being absolutely nothing is one of the great weaknesses of the new trilogy. If the Mandalorian changes that then that's a great improvement.
> 
> The empire had a place to be generic because it was a generic oppressive empire but the First Order has much less room being generic because then it means Luke and Co were all beaten to a pulp by some wacky stormtrooper cosplayers instead of an actual faction with actual traits and actual goals.



There's nothing going to justify shoehorning the origins of the First Order in The Mandalorian, its simply Disney double downing on a mistake and realizing they have to hedge their chips in there. Just like after TLJ, we had a scene and plot point in Solo about "hyperspace" fuel for hyperdrives. The fact this is a major plot point for a series that takes place years before the Sequel Trilogy events won't do anything justice.


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## Linkdarkside (Nov 9, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Nov 9, 2019)

I'm curious how Lucas could've done anything to "save the movie". Even pretending that he doesn't divide audiences himself (Han shooting first, etc.), it's not like this is his story, nor are these his characters... unless it turns out that the sequel trilogy stayed closer to Lucas's notes than originally thought, which would be hilarious as it would piss off the detractors who want to blame everything on Disney, but I highly doubt as Lucas disliked "The Force Awakens". 

I would say that Disney just wants to use Lucas's name to promote "RoS", but Lucas also praised "The Last Jedi", so would his involvement really sell any more tickets? I am curious how much they'd have to pay him. Wouldn't that be amazing? You get 4 billion dollars for selling a property and yet they'd have to hire you for your involvement in the property you just sold? 

Of course, it's all just rumors. I remember hearing how "Deadpool 2" had a disastrous test screening... which interestingly, was legit as leaks of a certain character dying ended up being true... and people liked it. "Halloween (2018)" also tested poorly with audiences and people liked it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2019)

Lucas didn't praise TLJ, he just said it was shot well. The same line he was credited with giving credit for its cinematography and camera work neglects to be fully fleshed out with Lucas statement being double edged on the "praise". Not verbatim but more or less he said it was shot well but then went on to also say well edited movies can still be bad. 

That's pretty much him shooting shades at VII.


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## MShadows (Nov 10, 2019)

Sweet baby Jesus, they're actually going to redo half the movie because the screenings were an absolute joke? 

 

I'm glad to see that the dumbass people in charge over at Disney are finally realizing how badly they've damaged this franchise.


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## Pilaf (Nov 10, 2019)

Eh, but you know what? At least he wasn't afraid to do his own thing just to tell the story he wanted to. Writers like Filoni managed to expand on concepts from the prequels and make really great stories out of them. I think history will and to some degree already is forgiving the prequels.


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## MShadows (Nov 10, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Eh, but you know what? At least he wasn't afraid to do his own thing just to tell the story he wanted to. Writers like Filoni managed to expand on concepts from the prequels and make really great stories out of them. I think history will and to some degree already is forgiving the prequels.


I'd watch any of the prequels over the horrific shit that is the current trilogy. I actually like the prequels.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 10, 2019)

LMAOOO

I'm laughing at how the tables have turned. It only took a few years for y'all to beg Lucas to come back huh?


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## dr_shadow (Nov 10, 2019)

George Lucas coming back to Star Wars is likely to go as well as James Cameron "coming back" to Terminator.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 10, 2019)

Fang said:


> Lucas didn't praise TLJ, he just said it was shot well. The same line he was credited with giving credit for its cinematography and camera work neglects to be fully fleshed out with Lucas statement being double edged on the "praise". Not verbatim but more or less he said it was shot well but then went on to also say well edited movies can still be bad.
> 
> That's pretty much him shooting shades at VII.



Hmmmmm. I looked it up and indeed, it was just his rep saying he thought it was "beautifully made", which does seem a little... polite... Never thought about it that way, but it does sound like he just doesn't want to hurt anyones feelings (yet).

Has Lucas ever talked further about it? He sure shat on TFA after initially praising it. I've always wondered if his contract said that he had to be quiet on any criticism he had and if Disney reminded him of it after he made those comments.


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## Pilaf (Nov 10, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> George Lucas coming back to Star Wars is likely to go as well as James Cameron "coming back" to Terminator.



Eh, well, you're not wrong about Terminator, but that's technically Cameron's vision and he has the right to do what he pleases with it. Due to the Laws of Canon, this is the Terminator-verse now, like it or not. People will vote with their money. 


Some people would argue that the Alien prequels are garbage, too, but I'd say Ridley Scott's vision is actually more interesting and unique than what the fans wanted in this case, which was some kind of hackneyed AVP shit. The whole David storyline is actually compelling to me, and the Engineers are interesting. 

Lucas had a vision for the Sequel trilogy that followed family bloodlines and the Journal of the Whills, and he planned on going into "the microscopic universe". Would that have been a big Hollywood blockbuster? I doubt it. But god damn if it doesn't sound like some fascinating and unique sci fi shit we've not seen before. Not like...whatever these Disney movies are.


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## jesusus (Nov 10, 2019)

haha here i thought i was missing on the new trilogy with all the false Disney TM hype but looks like i saved myself ticket money + gas fees to use on better movies


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 10, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Lucas to come back


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> George Lucas coming back to Star Wars is likely to go as well as James Cameron "coming back" to Terminator.



Not quite the same situation. After T3, Salvation was decent but didn't do well, Geneysis was absolutely and completely horrendous and that fallout carried over into Dark Fate which banked itself as being "woke" as possible which stifled box office revenue with an irritated fandom. Miller should've kept his mouth shut instead of antagonizing fans. Its more clear that James Cameron or not, Terminator has devolved over the last 15 years into a franchise people don't care as much about.


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## jesusus (Nov 10, 2019)

Dont see how this movie is gonna bomb though. Knowing Disney they could easily buy their own tickets and spread false hype everywhere


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 10, 2019)

Fang said:


> Not quite the same situation. After T3, Salvation was decent but didn't do well, Geneysis was absolutely and completely horrendous and that fallout carried over into Dark Fate which banked itself as being "woke" as possible which stifled box office revenue with an irritated fandom. Miller should've kept his mouth shut instead of antagonizing fans. Its more clear that James Cameron or not, Terminator has devolved over the last 15 years into a franchise people don't care as much about.



I think it's more of "a fool me once shame on me, fool me twice. . ." with the terminator franchise, rather than a lack of care.
People still care, but were burned far to many times to give it a chance anymore.

Even the tv show that people liked, shafted the fanbase with it's ending.
Sure it was the writers strike's fault, but it still leaves you with a disappointed fandom.



jesusus said:


> Dont see how this movie is gonna bomb though. Knowing Disney they could easily buy their own tickets and spread false hype everywhere



Considering how many times they have re-shot it, the shear cost will make the profit margin quite small.


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2019)

jesusus said:


> Dont see how this movie is gonna bomb though. Knowing Disney they could easily buy their own tickets and spread false hype everywhere



Forbes and Business Insider's projections haven't been favorable for Rise of the Skywalkers relatively speaking. Complete bomb like Solo? Doubtful. As successful as TLJ? Even that's doubtful.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Nov 10, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Eh, well, you're not wrong about Terminator, but that's technically Cameron's vision and he has the right to do what he pleases with it. Due to the Laws of Canon, this is the Terminator-verse now, like it or not. People will vote with their money.
> 
> 
> Some people would argue that the Alien prequels are garbage, too, but I'd say Ridley Scott's vision is actually more interesting and unique than what the fans wanted in this case, which was some kind of hackneyed AVP shit. The whole David storyline is actually compelling to me, and the Engineers are interesting.
> ...



I think if Lucas had made the trilogy like he originally intended, they probably wouldn't have done that well. Even though people seem to be trying to re-evaluate Lucas and the prequels in protest to Disney Wars, he had been the punchline of a joke by the time "The Force Awakens" was announced. Beyond the divisiveness of the prequels, no one liked the special editions, Indiana Jones was divisive to hated and Lucas got more blame than Spielberg. The only thing that would've pumped people up is if he developed some new kind of technology. The prequels might've been garbage, but they were cutting edge when it came to special effects at the time. But Lucas doesn't seem to have the drive that James Cameron does.

Edit: Although I doubt he would've had his own "Solo" either. To clarify, if Lucas had done his own trilogy, I doubt it would've reached "TFA" highs, but I don't think the decline would've been as noticeable. 

With Terminator and Alien, I think there has been too many divisive or bad sequels too quickly. While I don't think being woke killed "Dark Fate" at the box office, I do think they used its "wokeness" as a crutch. The female empowerment angle is fine, especially as the franchise had already done that, but when the entire marketing campaign is built around the female leads beating the shit out of the villain -- who we keep being told is supposed to be really threatening -- it sort of deflates any sense of tension or urgency.

The funny thing is that "Terminator 3" arguably had a more successful "woke" marketing campaign, long before it became trendy. In that those trailers, the female terminator spent the entire time beating the shit out of the protagonists, even reprogramming the T800. That creates a lot more drama, intrigue and tension, based on the trailers alone (even if the movie was mediocre).


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I think if Lucas had made the trilogy like he originally intended, they probably wouldn't have done that well. Even though people seem to be trying to re-evaluate Lucas and the prequels in protest to Disney Wars, he had been the punchline of a joke by the time "The Force Awakens" was announced.



Doubt.


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## dr_shadow (Nov 10, 2019)

Fang said:


> Dark Fate which banked itself as being "woke" as possible which stifled box office revenue with an irritated fandom. Miller should've kept his mouth shut instead of antagonizing fans.



TBH I didn't follow this off-screen drama at all, so it had no influence on my opinion of the movie. I went in without any particular expectations, and then found it to be another remake of Terminator 2 with a slightly new paint job.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 10, 2019)

Yeah I didn't hear anyone speak on DF's "wokeness" . All the general public knew about it was James Cameron helped with the script. Which is the only reason it was given attention.


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah I didn't hear anyone speak on DF's "wokeness" . All the general public knew about it was James Cameron helped with the script. Which is the only reason it was given attention.





mr_shadow said:


> TBH I didn't follow this off-screen drama at all, so it had no influence on my opinion of the movie. I went in without any particular expectations, and then found it to be another remake of Terminator 2 with a slightly new paint job.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 10, 2019)

Don't think we'll be seeing another T film for awhile  .


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## Son Of Man (Nov 10, 2019)

Mark Hamill telling that fan that bought 20+ tickets that he should have saved his money and waited for Rise of Skywalker to air on TV


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## Kuromaku (Nov 10, 2019)

Mark might be beginning to understand how Alec Guiness felt


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## MartialHorror (Nov 10, 2019)

So how much must "The Rise of Skywalker" gross for it to be considered a success? Or at least not a failure? 

I suppose anything more than "The Last Jedi" could be considered a success, anything less a failure. Everyone assumes that being the grand finale automatically means there will be a boost in ticket sales, but "Return of the Jedi" grossed less than "Empire Strikes Back". "Revenge of the Sith" did better than "Attack of the Clones", but they also had a bigger hook (the fall of the Jedi, Vader's formal return). 

A large part of it is perspective though. If it grosses about the same as "The Last Jedi", it's probably somewhat of an underperformer, as you know this had to cost quite a bit more. But Disney can still spin those numbers in their favor, if only to satisfy investors... and to be fair, I think would show that Star Wars still does have a sizeable audience, even if it's not what they originally hoped. Anything less though, then I'd say it's a failure, even if it technically makes money. The billion dollar club no longer feels exclusive. 

Marvel is obviously the #1 franchise of today, but to be fair, the prequels were mostly upstaged by the hotter, newer franchises of its day (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Spider Man). The original trilogy didn't have much franchise competition... which might say something about how much the industry relies on franchises these days.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 10, 2019)

I do find myself wondering...

Why is it that Marvel only seems to be getting bigger, while Star Wars has never been able to maintain its momentum? While "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi" were hugely successful, they were a long way off from the original movie. "The Phantom Menace" and "The Force Awakens" were also incredibly big financial draws, but the follow-ups didn't even come close to selling as well.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 10, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I do find myself wondering...
> 
> Why is it that Marvel only seems to be getting bigger, while Star Wars has never been able to maintain its momentum? While "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi" were hugely successful, they were a long way off from the original movie. "The Phantom Menace" and "The Force Awakens" were also incredibly big financial draws, but the follow-ups didn't even come close to selling as well.


Consistency. 

From what I hear ESB and RTOJ. Weren't well received during their time .

And we know the story of the prequels...


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> From what I hear ESB and RTOJ. Weren't well received during their time .



They were, those that say contrary are lying. There are web archives of the reviews from newspapers like the New York Times that had both, especially TESB, score high.


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## Kuromaku (Nov 11, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I do find myself wondering...
> 
> Why is it that Marvel only seems to be getting bigger, while Star Wars has never been able to maintain its momentum? While "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi" were hugely successful, they were a long way off from the original movie. "The Phantom Menace" and "The Force Awakens" were also incredibly big financial draws, but the follow-ups didn't even come close to selling as well.



It's the nature of the story being told. Despite being based on film serials of old, _Star Wars_ ultimately is a story with a beginning, middle, and end, with the original trilogy being defined as such in part by George Lucas himself wanting to end the story in 1983 instead of keeping it going because of how tiring it was all getting. This doesn't lend itself to continued momentum regardless of how much money and merchandise is sold, because the big properties that propel the property, the movies, are limited in number.  In addition, because of the simplified nature of the narrative, the world building was itself an add-on rather than an intrinsic part of the original story, meaning that side material would have to be improvised and consistency (and coherence) much harder to pull off, hence the byzantine nature of the old EU and the messes in the Disney continuity. Marvel, on the other hand, is by design based around an assembly line process that draws on decades' worth of material (which helps due to there being a built-in audience) and a workshop led by a head producer's vision to continually churn out movies that are at minimum acceptable in quality to keep the train running. Like the comics the MCU is based on, it will all keep going and going and going until we get something like what happened to comics wherein they might crash and try to reboot.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 11, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Why is it that Marvel only seems to be getting bigger


Feige
RDJ
Thanos

phase 4 will be a lull/TV phase

but then phase 5 huge again - F4 and mutants


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## MartialHorror (Nov 12, 2019)

So for the sake of potentially starting a topic, how do you think the franchise can be repaired? I think it can be, as "Halloween (2018)" was a big hit and if you've followed that franchise, you'd know it grew to be so poor that it nearly went direct-to-video at one point. Yet the 2018 movie was a surprise success, both financially and in terms of how everyone received it.

I was thinking about "Terminator: Dark Fate" and was wondering why it had a budget of $180,000,000 (that's Marvel money), when it's both Rated R and part of a brand that hasn't really been profitable for awhile. I think they should've returned the Terminator to its roots and been a smaller in scale, lower budgeted film. This is part of why "Halloween (2018)" caught fire. It took the franchise back to its humble roots. 

But "Star Wars" is trickier, as you just can't make those kinds of special effects on the cheap anymore. I'd say they need to market more to kids, but I don't know how profitable that would be anymore. If they downplayed the feminism, they risk trading in audiences again. Ultimately, I think regardless of who they market towards, they just need to calm down with these annual releases and settle on a vision prior to production. Almost all of these movies have had troubled productions, which was admittedly an issue with the original trilogy as well, but blockbuster filmmaking has changed. Even when "The Empire Strikes Back"'s budget bloated beyond control, movies in general weren't THAT expensive back then,  so even if it took in 50% of the original movies box office intake, it would still make a hefty profit. These days, everything costs $200-300 million.


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## MShadows (Nov 12, 2019)

The solution is scrapping these awful sequels and going back to the EU stories.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 12, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The solution is scrapping these awful sequels and going back to the EU stories.



So just adapt the books, video games, etc?


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 12, 2019)

I heard most of EU is trash fanfiction tho


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## MartialHorror (Nov 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I heard most of EU is trash fanfiction tho



I think it's kind of a copout myself. 

Even if all the books, games, comics, etc. are brilliant, just as good as the OT, it doesn't automatically mean they'll translate well into film. Different mediums follow different rules.


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## reiatsuflow (Nov 12, 2019)

The mandalorian sort of seems like fanfiction stuff (bounty hunter uses carbonite to freeze bounties even though in Empire that was just an improvised thing) and I think people are really liking it. That's what people want these days.


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## Fang (Nov 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I heard most of EU is trash fanfiction tho



lol


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## Son Of Man (Nov 12, 2019)

More lightsabers, jedi/sith


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I think it's kind of a copout myself.
> 
> Even if all the books, games, comics, etc. are brilliant, just as good as the OT, it doesn't automatically mean they'll translate well into film. Different mediums follow different rules.


That too


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> lol


I like the Darth Vader stuff tho. Where he's either crying about Padme or dismembering someone.


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## Fang (Nov 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I like the Darth Vader stuff tho. Where he's either crying about Padme or dismembering someone.



Nah I just think its funny you keep saying "I heard this" or "I heard that" and I wonder whose telling you these things like TESB wasn't popular on release when it hit the theaters back in the 80s.


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## reiatsuflow (Nov 12, 2019)

Now that I think about it, how have we not gotten any Sith stories yet in tv or movies? Does disney have one up its sleeve? I only know of mandalorian and obiwan.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Nov 12, 2019)

I wonder if they'll set up anything for future series in ROS. I don't want with/jedi stuff to die.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> Nah I just think its funny you keep saying "I heard this" or "I heard that" and I wonder whose telling you these things like TESB wasn't popular on release when it hit the theaters back in the 80s.


Just things I pick up in conversation or watching media or something. I don't keep a mental log of who said what. I probably picked it up reading a YouTube comment for all I know.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 12, 2019)

Return of the Jedi taking years to be accepted  Or Empire Strikes Back being considered too dark  is definitely commonly said.


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## Fang (Nov 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Just things I pick up in conversation or watching media or something. I don't keep a mental log of who said what. I probably picked it up reading a YouTube comment for all I know.



I think it shows people have to do their own research because those with agendas might lie to sell something that ain't true. Also the whole "TESB wasn't good originally in people's eyes" was something a lot of TLJ apologists in particular were making up after Episode VIII released.



~Gesy~ said:


> Return of the Jedi taking years to be accepted  Or Empire Strikes Back being considered too dark  is definitely commonly said.



"Commonly said."

They aren't.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> So for the sake of potentially starting a topic, how do you think the franchise can be repaired? I think it can be, as "Halloween (2018)" was a big hit and if you've followed that franchise, you'd know it grew to be so poor that it nearly went direct-to-video at one point. Yet the 2018 movie was a surprise success, both financially and in terms of how everyone received it.
> 
> I was thinking about "Terminator: Dark Fate" and was wondering why it had a budget of $180,000,000 (that's Marvel money), when it's both Rated R and part of a brand that hasn't really been profitable for awhile. I think they should've returned the Terminator to its roots and been a smaller in scale, lower budgeted film. This is part of why "Halloween (2018)" caught fire. It took the franchise back to its humble roots.
> 
> But "Star Wars" is trickier, as you just can't make those kinds of special effects on the cheap anymore. I'd say they need to market more to kids, but I don't know how profitable that would be anymore. If they downplayed the feminism, they risk trading in audiences again. Ultimately, I think regardless of who they market towards, they just need to calm down with these annual releases and settle on a vision prior to production. Almost all of these movies have had troubled productions, which was admittedly an issue with the original trilogy as well, but blockbuster filmmaking has changed. Even when "The Empire Strikes Back"'s budget bloated beyond control, movies in general weren't THAT expensive back then,  so even if it took in 50% of the original movies box office intake, it would still make a hefty profit. These days, everything costs $200-300 million.



Having a plan for the overarching storyline for one.
A lot of the issues are the result of the two directors having different plans and giving the middlefinger to each other.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 12, 2019)

Fang said:


> I think it shows people have to do their own research because those with agendas might lie to sell something that ain't true. Also the whole "TESB wasn't good originally in people's eyes" was something a lot of TLJ apologists in particular were making up after Episode VIII released.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be fair, there are a lot of articles filled with quotes from the time of its release that do make similar statements, although I think the claims tend to be somewhat exaggerated. This one is from 2014, before even TFA came out -- 

The author seems to be confronting or challenging the idea that TESB was disliked upon release, but they come to the conclusion that it simply garnered a lot of different reactions (love, hate, indifference, etc). 

This one --https:// -- is really just a film essay, but also mentions the mixed reviews and it was written in 2011. 

This one came out in the wake of the Last Jedi backlash --  -- but actually draws quotes from contemporary fan reviews from a magazine, where it seemed divisive... and I did laugh at how apparently someone got angry that Leia chose Han. I guess shippers have always been a thing.

So even if the claims aren't accurate, or if they were exaggerated, it's not like they came out of nowhere.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 12, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Now that I think about it, how have we not gotten any Sith stories yet in tv or movies? Does disney have one up its sleeve? I only know of mandalorian and obiwan.


I consider Rogue One a sith story


Fang said:


> "Commonly said."





> _The Empire Strikes Back_ initially received mixed reviews from critics upon release. For example,  of  wrote a largely dismissive review of the film, saying "it is nice and inoffensive and, in a way that no one associated with it need be ashamed of, it's also silly. Attending to it is a lot like reading the middle of a comic book." David Denby of  magazine called the film "a Wagnerian pop movie—grandiose, thrilling, imperiously generous in scale, and also a bit ponderous".  of  criticized the film's "middle-of-the-story" plot, which she claimed had no particular beginning or end.





> of  was negative, calling _Return of the Jedi_ "by far the dimmest adventure of the lot" and declaring, "The joys of watching space battles as envisioned by wizards in studios and laboratories are not inexhaustible."  of  was also negative, beginning her review with the words: "Some of the trick effects might seem miraculous if the imagery had any lustre, but 'Return of the Jedi' is an impersonal and rather junky piece of moviemaking."


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 12, 2019)

Eh .I tried doing it your way...wasn't satisfying enough for me. I think I'll just keep saying "I heard".


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## MShadows (Nov 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I consider Rogue One a sith story


I misread that as “shit”


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## Fang (Nov 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I consider Rogue One a sith story





~Gesy~ said:


> Eh .I tried doing it your way...wasn't satisfying enough for me. I think I'll just keep saying "I heard".



This was literally a minority. WorldClassBullshitters even had an entire video dedicated to debunking this claim, the majority was overwhelmingly positive among fans and critics alike.

Also:

>Vincent Canby



> I’m also puzzled by the praise that some of my colleagues have heaped on the work of Irvin Kershner, whom Lucas, who directed “Star Wars” and who is the executive producer of this one, hired to direct “The Empire Strikes Back.”



That caveat is missing.

Oh and the rest of his reviews on famous legendary cinema films:




> Here’s what Canby had to say about :
> 
> Most of the film was photographed on location in seedy, Philadelphia neighborhoods, and it’s one of the film’s ironies that a production that has put such emphasis on realism should seem so fraudulent.The problem, I think, comes back to Mr. Stallone. Throughout the movie we are asked to believe that his Rocky is compassionate, interesting, even heroic, though the character we see is simply an unconvincing actor imitating a lug.





> Here’s what Canby had to say about :
> 
> One follows ”Witness” as if touring one’s old hometown, guided by an outsider who refuses to believe that one knows the territory better than he does. There’s not a character, an event or a plot twist that one hasn’t anticipated long before its arrival, which gives one the feeling of waiting around for people who are always late.





> Here’s what he had to say about :
> 
> Yet “The Exorcist” is claptrap. It has hardly any narrative to speak of, and what it has contain* more loose ends than the first draft of a 2,000‐page novel. The entire Iraqi sequence is superfluous window‐dressing. Unlike a lot of extremely dumb vampire movies, it’s about nothing else but what it says, demonic possession and exorcism. Though I admit to being skeptical, even that would be defensible and possibly fun.





> Here are his thoughts on :
> 
> There are some unsettling things about “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.” I suspect that we are meant to make connections between Randle’s confrontation with the oppressive Nurse Ratched and the political turmoil in this country in the 1960’s. The connection doesn’t work. All it does is conveniently distract us from questioning the accuracy of the film’s picture of life in a mental institution where shock treatments are dispensed like aspirins and lobotomies are prescribed as if the mind’s frontal lobes were troublesome wisdom teeth.





> Here’s what he had to say about :
> 
> The plot defies any rational synopsis, but it allows Mr. Coppola, in his role as director, to rework lots of scenes that were done far better the first time: family reunions, shoot-outs, ambushes and occasional dumb exchanges between Don Michael Corleone and his square, long-suffering wife, Kay (Diane Keaton). “Oh, Michael,” says the slow-to-take-offense Kay when Michael is about to sew up the Vegas rackets, “seven years ago you told me you’d be legitimate in five years.””Part II’s” dialogue often sounds like cartoon captions.





> Here’s what he had to say about :
> 
> Thus — familiarly but with immense promise — begins “Alien,” Ridley Scott’s new, elaborately produced science-fiction film that opens today at the Criterion and other theaters. However, as this voyage continues, familiarity consumes the promise and leaves as residue the memory of some shrieks from shocks of a most mundane kind.




You are buying into a meme.

And going into aggregated scores and converting that to how films are rated and scored on RottenTomatoes, TESB still would sit at its original score of 92%.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 12, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I misread that as “shit”


"Be careful not to CHOKE on your aspirations, Director"



Fang said:


> This was literally a minority. WorldClassBullshitters even had an entire video dedicated to debunking this claim, the majority was overwhelmingly positive among fans and critics alike.
> 
> Also:
> 
> ...


Well I'm not gonna read through reviews that were written a decade before I was born just to try to prove you wrong . so I'll take your word for it.


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## Fang (Nov 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> "Be careful not to CHOKE on your aspirations, Director"
> 
> 
> Well I'm not gonna read through reviews that were written a decade before I was born just to try to prove you wrong . so I'll take your word for it.



You could just focus on the part that you quoted a recent edit by a single user who used only Canby as the metric for pushing revisionism to defend TLJ so fair is fair either way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Nov 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> So for the sake of potentially starting a topic, how do you think the franchise can be repaired? I think it can be, as "Halloween (2018)" was a big hit and if you've followed that franchise, you'd know it grew to be so poor that it nearly went direct-to-video at one point. Yet the 2018 movie was a surprise success, both financially and in terms of how everyone received it.
> 
> I was thinking about "Terminator: Dark Fate" and was wondering why it had a budget of $180,000,000 (that's Marvel money), when it's both Rated R and part of a brand that hasn't really been profitable for awhile. I think they should've returned the Terminator to its roots and been a smaller in scale, lower budgeted film. This is part of why "Halloween (2018)" caught fire. It took the franchise back to its humble roots.
> 
> But "Star Wars" is trickier, as you just can't make those kinds of special effects on the cheap anymore. I'd say they need to market more to kids, but I don't know how profitable that would be anymore. If they downplayed the feminism, they risk trading in audiences again. Ultimately, I think regardless of who they market towards, they just need to calm down with these annual releases and settle on a vision prior to production. Almost all of these movies have had troubled productions, which was admittedly an issue with the original trilogy as well, but blockbuster filmmaking has changed. Even when "The Empire Strikes Back"'s budget bloated beyond control, movies in general weren't THAT expensive back then,  so even if it took in 50% of the original movies box office intake, it would still make a hefty profit. These days, everything costs $200-300 million.



I think Rogue One had the right idea. It's possible to tell stories set in the Star Wars galaxy that don't necessarily have lightsabers swinging everywhere.

Same as the new premise of Terminator: Salvation. Not every movie set in the Terminator continuity has to be "run from the liquid metal monster!"


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 13, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Return of the Jedi taking years to be accepted  Or Empire Strikes Back being considered too dark  is definitely commonly said.


I still havent accepted half of RotJ


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## MShadows (Nov 13, 2019)

>all the hipsters hating on the OG SW movies


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## reiatsuflow (Nov 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I think Rogue One had the right idea. It's possible to tell stories set in the Star Wars galaxy that don't necessarily have lightsabers swinging everywhere.
> 
> Same as the new premise of Terminator: Salvation. Not every movie set in the Terminator continuity has to be "run from the liquid metal monster!"



Here's the problem though. If you take away the jedi sith stuff and the good evil the force mythmaking hero's journey malarky, star wars is mostly just dumb star trek.


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## Fang (Nov 13, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Here's the problem though. If you take away the jedi sith stuff and the good evil the force mythmaking hero's journey malarky, star wars is mostly just dumb star trek.



Star Trek is about space commies traveling around talking about how commerce and capitalism is bad (no joke Rodenberry was a huge lefty) and war isn't central to its story or theme in any of its shows or movies. Even without the Jedi or Sith or the Force, you have a political space opera/drama with war always being a background set up.

They are still hugely divergent.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 13, 2019)

Without jedi/sith/force its a shitty space drama tho

Reactions: Like 1


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## Swarmy (Nov 13, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Without jedi/sith/force its a shitty space drama tho


The Mandalorian says hi!


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## Atem (Nov 13, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Here's the problem though. If you take away the jedi sith stuff and the good evil the force mythmaking hero's journey malarky, star wars is mostly just dumb star trek.


Lmao, Star Trek is objectively garbage espeacially now.

DSP was the only good one specifically because it wasn't like the others, and had a captain willing to deck Q in the schnoz.

Ironic that the most not Star Trek run was the best one. Maybe it was because the formula for the others was awful?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 13, 2019)

Swarmy said:


> The Mandalorian says hi!


havent seen yet

I should get Disney+


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## Son Of Man (Nov 13, 2019)

Lightsabers are cool


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I think it's kind of a copout myself.
> 
> Even if all the books, games, comics, etc. are brilliant, just as good as the OT, it doesn't automatically mean they'll translate well into film. Different mediums follow different rules.



That wouldn't be the only problem. Simply adapting the EU stories would, arguably, appeal only to the fans who followed all the 100+ books that are set in the post-_Return of the Jedi _era. Scrapping the new canon in favor of adapting the Legends canon is the other problem, since it comes off as him arguing "they should only service the Legends fans." 

Which only comes off as selfish, because there are people who are enjoying the new stories set in the current canon, and would like to see what new stories can be told going forward. The Mandalorian, Rebels and Resistance are all examples of such stories, and that's just taking into account live-action and animated TV series. 

Adapting the Legends canon film would be just that; a long string of novel adaptations that could go on for decades due to the amount of novels the Legends continuity produced, since making a Sequel Trilogy in the Legends continuity would likely be unfeasible.


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## reiatsuflow (Nov 13, 2019)

Swarmy said:


> The Mandalorian says hi!



And it’s a shitty space drama.


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## Fang (Nov 13, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Lmao, Star Trek is objectively garbage espeacially now.
> 
> DSP was the only good one specifically because it wasn't like the others, and had a captain willing to deck Q in the schnoz.
> 
> Ironic that the most not Star Trek run was the best one. Maybe it was because the formula for the others was awful?



OG and TNG are fine for the most part along with DS9 but everything else was shit.


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## Swarmy (Nov 13, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> And it’s a shitty space drama.


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## Atem (Nov 13, 2019)

Fang said:


> OG and TNG are fine for the most part along with DS9 but everything else was shit.



Yeah, but DS9 will always be my favorite.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 14, 2019)

A sith mod has altered this thread.
I Pray he doesn't alter it further.


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## Atem (Nov 14, 2019)

I am going to bet you whined to one of them after I tore you apart like last night's dinner.


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## Pilaf (Nov 14, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Yeah, but DS9 will always be my favorite.




Ah. A true man of culture. A Moorcock fan and a DS9 fan.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 14, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> I am going to bet you whined to one of them after I tore you apart like last night's dinner.



Those are some heavy drugs your on.


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## Atem (Nov 14, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Those are some heavy drugs your on.



I didn't need to be on drugs to beat your candy ass.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 15, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> I didn't need to be on drugs to beat your candy ass.



Ha. You probably couldn't even lift yourself up to get out of your mothers basement, you two bit keyboard warrior wannabe.

You tried to claim a guy whose very conception was manipulated by the bajoran gods to become their prophesied messiah to their flock, isn't a literal child of prophecy.


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## Son Of Man (Nov 15, 2019)

What do you guys want to see in the movie? I'd like to see palps reference another group of darkside users. If he's been in the outer regions he's bound to have seen some shit. I'm hoping for setup of the next trilogy.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 15, 2019)

I want to see Palps in a saber fight

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Nov 15, 2019)

I wonder how old he is. 80s 90s? 100+?


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 15, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I want to see Palps in a saber fight


This.

Do y'all think he's a clone? I'd rather him ending up taking over Kylo's body .

Edit: dont answer if you read the leaks


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## Son Of Man (Nov 15, 2019)

I picture him like voldemort in the goblet of fire before he gets his body back. There were tlj rumors that snoke could take lifeforce from people but ended up being bs. Palps could have this ability.


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## Kuromaku (Nov 15, 2019)

I wanna see a movie that doesn't suck. That would be nice.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 15, 2019)

I want to see "Carnosaur" finally become part of the Star Wars cinematic universe... as it was always meant to be.


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## Atem (Nov 15, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Ha. You probably couldn't even lift yourself up to get out of your mothers basement, you two bit keyboard warrior wannabe.



I live on the third floor of an apartment in Brockton, and pay not only my own rent but also my father's bills because he is too old to work. Try again, neckbeard.





> You tried to claim a guy whose very conception was manipulated by the bajoran gods to become their prophesied messiah to their flock, isn't a literal child of prophecy.



You tried to claim that he was a literal child of prophecy. Based on the fact that he wasn't a literal child of prophecy by your own admission. After using a straw man to say I didn't say that the Bajoran Prophets orchestrated the circumstances when I was one who specifically told you how they did in detail. Then when I made it clear that interpreting the will of god is not the same as being that god in the first place? You once again didn't read my post, and instead replied to an imaginary one that was only in whatever delusion you were concocting. After you tried to lecture me on the etymology of it. _When I am fucking Greek._ Stop posturing for somebody who would know more about the subject than you ever will.


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## Son Of Man (Nov 15, 2019)

The darkside


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## dr_shadow (Nov 15, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> What do you guys want to see in the movie? I'd like to see palps reference another group of darkside users. If he's been in the outer regions he's bound to have seen some shit. I'm hoping for setup of the next trilogy.





Shiba D. Inu said:


> I want to see Palps in a saber fight



I'd prefer to see him not be part of the movie in the first place.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 15, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> You tried to claim that he was a literal child of prophecy.Based on the fact that he wasn't a literal child of prophecy by your own admission.



I claimed he is something by admitting he isn't that.
Bro, at least make up shit that makes sense.



Elric of Melniboné said:


> Then when I made it clear that interpreting the will of god is not the same as being that god in the first place?



Now your just piecing some of my points together into a non sequitur.



Elric of Melniboné said:


> After you tried to lecture me on the _*eytmologlgy*_ of it. _When I am fucking Greek._ Stop posturing for somebody who would know more about the subject than you ever will.



Etymology
You can't even spell it.
LoooooooooooooooL


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## Atem (Nov 15, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> I claimed he is something by admitting he isn't that.
> Bro, at least make up shit that makes sense.



That is exactly what you did. You claimed he was a product of coincidence, and chance. Not that the Bajoran Prophets were responsible. Then you changed your narrative midway.



> Now your just piecing some of my points together into a non sequitur.



It's not a non-sequitor. It was the crutch of your entire argument before you haphazardly changed it.



> Etymology
> You can't even spell it.
> LoooooooooooooooL



It's called autocorrect, dumb ass.  Though I am not surprised that you would resort to pedantry in lieu of anything of actual substance. Since that has been point of your entire argument. That you have none.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 15, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> You claimed he was a product of coincidence, and chance. Not that the Bajoran Prophets were responsible.



Nope.
The only mention of coincidence in my posts, was me refuting your bullshit claim of him not being a child of prophecy due to it being arranged by the Prophets. 
I always said his entire existence was manipulated starting from conception.





Elric of Melniboné said:


> It's not a non-sequitor. It was the crutch of your entire argument before you haphazardly changed it.



No, it was 2 separate responses, that you joined together.
Misrepresenting my argument and attacking your own construct.
Textbook straw man fallacy




Elric of Melniboné said:


> It's called autocorrect, dumb ass.



So you are saying your spelling was auto corrected into a non existent word.
And I'm supposed to be dumb.
Bitch please.


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## Atem (Nov 15, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Nope.
> The only mention of coincidence in my posts, was me refuting your bullshit claim of him not being a child of prophecy due to it being arranged by the Prophets.



You literally claimed that he was a stereotypical child of prophecy. Without realizing that the fact that the Bajoran Prophets made up, and organized this plot means that he is not. You cannot have your cake, and eat it too here.



> I always said his entire existence was manipulated starting from conception.



Which as I illustrated before was completely retarded. Since that is in direct contrast to the idea that he is a stereotypical child of prophecy. That he is the product of some sort of unspecificied or invisible force. When we know it was due to the machinations of the Bajoran Prophets, and not some contrived plot device. Which you are egregiously acting like it is.



> No, it was 2 separate responses, that you joined together.
> Misrepresenting my argument and attacking your own construct.
> Textbook straw man fallacy



I am not misrepresenting anything here. You are just projecting your own failures onto me. As you made clear when you ignored what I said from the beginning, and instead replied back to something I never said. When I made clear the influence the Bajoran Prophets had on the story, and how they manipulated it. Thus not making this a typical prophecy, or a case of them just interpreting the will of another. They are the ones orchestrating it in the first place, and this does not support your argument. It leaves it in shambles instead.




> !So you are saying your spelling was auto corrected into a non existent word.
> And I'm supposed to be dumb.
> Bitch please.



I literally provided evidence that I both knew how to properly spell it, and what it meant. That hyperlink I gave you which you ignored? It was to a post I made about a year ago. That I couldn't have possibly edited because the thread was locked.

Auto-correct can in fact jumble words, or add extraneous bits to them like it did there. It doesn't just always change the whole word. Sometimes it just butchers part of it like it did there.

Learn to auto-correct.


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## dr_shadow (Nov 21, 2019)

One month left.


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## Kuromaku (Nov 21, 2019)

So who here is actually planning to see it in theaters?

I'm not all that enthusiastic since my reaction to all the Disney films has been 'meh' at best thus far.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 21, 2019)

i will first try to get a spoiler about the size of Palps role and whether he physically reks some shit or not


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 21, 2019)

dont want to get baited with Palps grand return only for the Mouse to fuck me in the ass with a small cameo


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 21, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> So who here is actually planning to see it in theaters?
> 
> I'm not all that enthusiastic since my reaction to all the Disney films has been 'meh' at best thus far.


I'm planning to see it in theaters. I don't think it will tie up the trilogy in a neat bow but it should at least be fun..


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## dr_shadow (Nov 21, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> So who here is actually planning to see it in theaters?
> 
> I'm not all that enthusiastic since my reaction to all the Disney films has been 'meh' at best thus far.



I will. It opens on a Friday and I don't have anything else planned for that night (so far).


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## MartialHorror (Nov 21, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> So who here is actually planning to see it in theaters?
> 
> I'm not all that enthusiastic since my reaction to all the Disney films has been 'meh' at best thus far.



I'll see it. I love seeing these movies in crowds. They've been vocal... and usually incredibly enthusiastic. That sometimes can make the experience worth it. The only time the crowd didn't seem positive was when Maul appeared in "Solo", as everyone was like "Huh? What? Isn't he dead at this time?".


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## Pilaf (Nov 21, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Nov 21, 2019)

I'm planning on seeing it, thanks to the based internet and web rips.


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## MShadows (Nov 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> I'm planning on seeing it, thanks to the based internet and web rips.


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## wibisana (Nov 22, 2019)

Based on the top comments in trailer
People seems to hate it

I just wonder  how much it will makes money.
But i guess they can afford losses since in the end it will be another movie to stream at their platform


Personally i never cared about the franchise.so it is all good for me


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## Pilaf (Nov 22, 2019)

Hello, there. 

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 24, 2019)




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## Kuromaku (Nov 24, 2019)

Less than a month to go. Are you hyped? What are you hoping for? What are you expecting?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 24, 2019)

I want PrequelMemes 2.0


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## Fang (Nov 24, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Less than a month to go. Are you hyped? What are you hoping for? What are you expecting?



I don't think there's any hype for this.


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## Pilaf (Nov 24, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Less than a month to go. Are you hyped? What are you hoping for? What are you expecting?




I was more hyped for my recent bowel movement. I may not even bother pirating this one. It's plain to me that the true future of SW is in the hands of the likes of Filoni and Favreau.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 24, 2019)

No hype. But I see it making at least 800 million regardless.

Dont know what to expect from the movie itself since it seems like they're backtracking from the last installment.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 24, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I was more hyped for my recent bowel movement. I may not even bother pirating this one. It's plain to me that the true future of SW is in the hands of the likes of Filoni and Favreau.


Television  is an easier medium to pull off. Cause so far we've had 1 hour 30 minutes of barely anything .


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> at least 800 million


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 24, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


>


I just can't imagine a star wars story making less. I give the last two movies a pass because those were side stories.

But we'll see


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 24, 2019)

ofc it will make _at least_ a billion no matter what

beyond that idk


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 24, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> ofc it will make _at least_ a billion no matter what
> 
> beyond that idk


I wouldn't say that's set in stone though. I think a majority are skeptical about this movie.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 24, 2019)

it is


if its not I will remove my Mouse tattoo


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 24, 2019)

Mandalorian & baby Yoda will help lure them in


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 25, 2019)




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## ClandestineSchemer (Nov 25, 2019)

LoooooooooooooL
Only a matter of time before the full script gets out.


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## reiatsuflow (Nov 25, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


>



We sure love giving english actors all our shit.

We kept kylo ren, that's it.


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 25, 2019)

Lol imagine dodging the ESTB twist in the 80s. That gotta be the biggest twist in film history, right?


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## Son Of Man (Nov 25, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> LoooooooooooooL
> Only a matter of time before the full script gets out.


I was probably Mark Hamill


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 25, 2019)

Hamill:


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## Son Of Man (Nov 25, 2019)

THEY FLY NOWWWWWWWW


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## reiatsuflow (Nov 25, 2019)

It's funny because one guy says it and then another guy says it and then another guy says it, but the first guy says it like "they fly now?" and the second guy says it like "they fly now!" and the third guy says it like "they fly now." haaaaaaa


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## Kuromaku (Nov 26, 2019)

Comparing the main trio to the cast of the new films doesn't do the latter any favors. All three of the former have become iconic to the point of defining their archetypes (the naive farm boy out to achieve his destiny, the domineering princess, and the scoundrel with a heart of gold) in pop culture, while no one really gives a shit about the new cast (although they like Kylo).


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## MartialHorror (Nov 26, 2019)

Didn't they already kind of fly in the prequels? 

Anyway -- it looks like the movie is completely finished.


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 26, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I was more hyped for my recent bowel movement. I may not even bother pirating this one. It's plain to me that the true future of SW is in the hands of the likes of Filoni and Favreau.



Well, shit.


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## Mider T (Nov 27, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Nov 28, 2019)

What excuse will they come up with when it’ll underperform? 

Who will they blame on twitter this time around?


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## Son Of Man (Nov 28, 2019)

MShadows said:


> What excuse will they come up with when it’ll underperform?
> 
> Who will they blame on twitter this time around?


They'll just bring back the "AND THAT'S A GOOD THING" act they used for tlj and solo.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Nov 28, 2019)

this will have better legs than TLJ


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## MShadows (Nov 28, 2019)

This franchise is dead and Disney killed it. Can’t believe anyone could defend this garbage...


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## Son Of Man (Nov 28, 2019)

"Solos box office failure JUST SAVED STAR WARS"
This was an actual headline for solo after it underperformed


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## ~Gesy~ (Nov 28, 2019)

Star Wars (arguably the biggest franchise in film.. but maybe Marvel has surpassed it) can never die.


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## Son Of Man (Nov 28, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Star Wars (arguably the biggest franchise in film.. but maybe Marvel has surpassed it) can never die.


True
I think ROS pulls 1.7 bil even if it sucks


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## dr_shadow (Nov 28, 2019)

I'm actually gonna set aside nine days (Dec. 12-20) to watch the whole "Skywalker Saga". Might as well, since this is likely the last theatrical Star Wars film for a while.

But I'm undecided on whether to see them in production order or narrative-chronological order. All my previous Star Wars marathons have been production order, so I'm leaning towards actually giving George Lucas the benefit of the doubt and checking out if the six movies he directed* really* play out as a grand redemption saga of Anakin Skywalker if you watch them in numerical order.


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## Son Of Man (Nov 28, 2019)

Was that a new tv spot right now? Watching the game and saw a tv spot I've never seen before.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 28, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Star Wars (arguably the biggest franchise in film.. but maybe Marvel has surpassed it) can never die.



If you actually look at the numbers, as big as Star Wars is, the prequels were ultimately upstaged by that generations franchises (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Spider-Man) and the NT was upstaged by Marvel. It hasn't been the dominant franchise since the OT. But at the same time, Star Wars does have more longevity it seems. 

When people say "Disney killed the brand", that isn't really true. There will always be an audience. If Disney simply scaled back the budgets, they wouldn't have to gross over a billion dollars to make a profit. They wouldn't have to beat Marvel. 

Just look at James Bond. That franchise has taken a much bigger beating than Star Wars over the years. It's had a lot of maligned entries, box office disappointments, law suits, copyright feuds, tentpole actors retiring from the role, wildly different tones... and as much as "Solo" struggled behind-the-scenes, that was a cakewalk compared to the debacle of the original "Casino Royale", which EON didn't even do, but was often blamed for it anyway. Yet it survived, adapted and not only remains popular, but might even be at its most popular.


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## U mad bro (Nov 28, 2019)

As shitty as the prequel were at least they had the lightsaber duels. Even the cartoons had interesting duels. This trilogy has been trash in that department amongst other things.


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## Gunners (Nov 29, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> *Even* the cartoons had interesting duels.



The cartoons were piff breh.


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## U mad bro (Nov 29, 2019)

Gunners said:


> The cartoons were piff breh.


My bad you right. You would think the product with hundreds of millions thrown into it would be the superior product lol


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## Gunners (Nov 29, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> My bad you right. You would think the product with hundreds of millions thrown into it would be the superior product lol



Yes and no.

When less money is thrown at something, more freedom is given. 

I have a feeling that when large amounts of money is thrown at something they start speaking with the Sarkeesian's of the world to "ensure" that it ticks all of the right boxes. It results in a poor product which is something they are learning.


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## U mad bro (Nov 29, 2019)

Gunners said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> When less money is thrown at something, more freedom is given.
> 
> I have a feeling that when large amounts of money is thrown at something they start speaking with the Sarkeesian's of the world to "ensure" that it ticks all of the right boxes. It results in a poor product which is something they are learning.


That is true creative freedom equates to a creative plot. Vs the box office checklist like you say. Which in today's hollywood is nasty. It's like looking at multi million dollar cw show to be honest when looking at these films.


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## MartialHorror (Nov 29, 2019)

I just watched "Knives Out", by everyone's favorite Star Wars director Rian Johnson. It's great, definitely the kind of movie he thrives at making. I don't know if I'd call it the best movie of 2019... and to be fair, I haven't seen as many as I usual do. "PARASITE" and "The Lighthouse" are superior films in the purist of senses, but this might be my personal favorite, as I just love these kinds of murder mysteries and this one one has a clever spin on the old formula.


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## dr_shadow (Nov 29, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I just watched "Knives Out", by everyone's favorite Star Wars director Rian Johnson. It's great, definitely the kind of movie he thrives at making. I don't know if I'd call it the best movie of 2019... and to be fair, I haven't seen as many as I usual do. "PARASITE" and "The Lighthouse" are superior films in the purist of senses, but this might be my personal favorite, as I just love these kinds of murder mysteries and this one one has a clever spin on the old formula.



Are you more excited for Star Wars or Ip Man? Which one would you go to if you only have time for one movie that weekend?


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## MartialHorror (Nov 29, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Are you more excited for Star Wars or Ip Man? Which one would you go to if you only have time for one movie that weekend?



That's kind of a tough one. I'd probably choose Star Wars, because it's a big event picture that almost has to be seen in theaters. Plus, I'll be bummed out if anyone spoils anything for me. With "Ip Man", I've seen them all on the small screen and that works out fine. If someone spoils the ending, I'd be annoyed, but I don't watch those kinds of movies for their resolutions. I watch them for the kung fu and if anything else is exceptionally handled (which to be fair, the first two Ip Man movies were), it's icing on the cake. But I kind of feel the ending of "Rise of Skywalker" will dictate how I feel about the trilogy as a whole, so the resolution is more important there.


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## Pilaf (Nov 30, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Nov 30, 2019)

Out of curiosity, I checked out to see how many tickets had sold for the Rise of Skywalker at my local Harkins and much to my surprise, the prime time showings were almost completely sold out on opening night. Maybe the movie will be OK at the box office... at least for the opening weekend.


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## Mider T (Nov 30, 2019)

Every Star Wars movie sells out opening night, dunno why that's surprising.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Dec 1, 2019)

When a fan makes better content than an entire Disney studio can put out with only a handful of people


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 1, 2019)

The new tv spot actually uses the duel of fates music.
Low blow Disney, low blow.
Anything can be epic if you use that!


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## MShadows (Dec 2, 2019)




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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 2, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> The new tv spot actually uses the duel of fates music.
> Low blow Disney, low blow.
> Anything can be epic if you use that!


That just shows how even they know how bad the current music is if they are that desperate to use the PT themes after exhausting the OT soundtracks.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 3, 2019)

They've always been using the iconic Star Wars tracks. Even "Duel of the Fates" is considered iconic. 

With that said, I actually liked the music they've shown in the trailers a lot. Hopefully it's utilized better than the scores for the other ones.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 3, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> * Even* "Duel of the Fates" is considered iconic.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 3, 2019)

They're still working on the movie.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 3, 2019)

Eh? Didn't NostalgiaFan have a similar tone with it? I've always maintained that the prequels (mostly) suck, yet "Duel of the Fates" is still a great track in spite of that, arguably on par with the OT's soundtrack, even if it's unfortunately associated with "The Phantom Menace". 

I don't see the problem with using it in the promotional materials, since "The Rise of Skywalker" is riding the nostalgia wave anyway. I wouldn't even be against it -- or a variation of it -- being used in the actual film. 

Speaking of which, does anyone have a link to the TV spot that uses it? I don't watch much TV, so I haven't seen it yet.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 3, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Eh? Didn't NostalgiaFan have a similar tone with it?


You're really awful at reading into comments if that is what you got out of mine. My post was mocking them for resorting to using PT music because the people currently in charge of SW kept mocking it in the past and now they are so desperate to get people in theaters they are using tracks from the Prequels just to appeal to their nostalgia because OT fans have been dried up of theirs.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 3, 2019)

The new leaks


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## MartialHorror (Dec 3, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> You're really awful at reading into comments if that is what you got out of mine. My post was mocking them for resorting to using PT music because the people currently in charge of SW kept mocking it in the past and now they are so desperate to get people in theaters they are using tracks from the Prequels just to appeal to their nostalgia because OT fans have been dried up of theirs.



Suuuuuuuuure.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 3, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Suuuuuuuuure.


You're welcome for correcting you.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 3, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> You're welcome for correcting you.



Suuuuuuuure. I think you're coming out and finally acknowledging that the prequels are garbage. 

Next you'll slip that you secretly like the NT... and are in fact, a Reylo shipper... and that you've been a dummy account for Shiba this entire time. I'm on to you, NostalgiaFan!


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 3, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Suuuuuuuure. I think you're coming out and finally acknowledging that the prequels are garbage.


It's amazing just how hard it is for you to accept being wrong to the point of lying to yourself just to not feel like an idiot.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 3, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Eh? Didn't NostalgiaFan have a similar tone with it? I've always maintained that the prequels (mostly) suck, yet "Duel of the Fates" is still a great track in spite of that, arguably on par with the OT's soundtrack, even if it's unfortunately associated with "The Phantom Menace".



Nah, he was mocking the new trilogy for needing to resort to it. 
At least, that's how I saw it.

The whole duel with Maul was epic so the association is great to me.



MartialHorror said:


> I don't see the problem with using it in the promotional materials, since "The Rise of Skywalker" is riding the nostalgia wave anyway. I wouldn't even be against it -- or a variation of it -- being used in the actual film.



I just hope this new movie won't use it in a way that cheapens it though. 
Williams said they will use all of the previous music and that worries me.
That is a lot of iconic and epic music to be crammed into it. 
So how they intend to make it flow well is beyond me.



MartialHorror said:


> Speaking of which, does anyone have a link to the TV spot that uses it? I don't watch much TV, so I haven't seen it yet.



Ask and you shall receive.
Also this TV spot is called duel, while the previous one was apparently Fate.
Coincidence or not?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 3, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> It's amazing just how hard it is for you to accept being wrong to the point of lying to yourself just to not feel like an idiot.



You take yourself too seriously, dude. 



ClandestineSchemer said:


> I just hope this new movie won't use it in a way that cheapens it though.
> Williams said they will use all of the previous music and that worries me.
> That is a lot of iconic and epic music to be crammed into it.
> So how they intend to make it flow well is beyond me.
> ...



Eh, I have faith in Williams. Even though people rag on the NT's soundtrack, I think it's more in how it's used. When you stop and just listen to the Force Awakens' soundtrack on its own, it's pretty damn good. I just can't recall it ever really popping out in the actual movie, outside of when Rey finally encounters Luke.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 3, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> You take yourself too seriously, dude.


I don't ever take you seriously.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 3, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> You take yourself too seriously, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, I have faith in Williams. Even though people rag on the NT's soundtrack, I think it's more in how it's used. When you stop and just listen to the Force Awakens' soundtrack on its own, it's pretty damn good. I just can't recall it ever really popping out in the actual movie, outside of when Rey finally encounters Luke.



But how it will be used is exactly what worries me. 
Like you said they didn't do a good job with the previous two.
I haven't listened to the soundtrack on its own, but the fact its completely forgettable in the films is a problem.
Especially if the soundtrack is good enough to stand on its own as you say.

It's a sign the music is used as an afterthought and not as an enhancer of the visual storytelling.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 3, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I don't ever take you seriously.



Then why do you care if I misread your posts? Why do you waste time responding to me goofing off with your intense clarifications?

I think you just want Senpai Horror to notice you.



ClandestineSchemer said:


> But how it will be used is exactly what worries me.
> Like you said they didn't do a good job with the previous two.
> I haven't listened to the soundtrack on its own, but the fact its completely forgettable in the films is a problem.
> Especially if the soundtrack is good enough to stand on its own as you say.
> ...



Sure, but you don't like any of these films, right? So why worry? Worst case scenario, it's just the same ole stuff. It's only the fans of the ST who should be really worried.

If anything, I'm wary of how the soundtrack will be incorporated based on how they've been going through so many reshoots and tinkering that I have to assume Williams would have to rescore it/ rearrange the music, which I have to imagine wouldn't be easy.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 3, 2019)

I still am upset that Disney declared the expanded universe non-canon, but I have found a way to make myself feel better about it; in Marvel and DC comics, there are so many different timelines, continuities, and alternate realities that it is nearly impossible to keep track of all of them, so is that a good method for thinking of _Star Wars,_ that the novels and other stories of the expanded universe are simply only timeline out of many?


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## MShadows (Dec 3, 2019)

They can use Duel of the Fates OST all they want, but they’ll never be able to replicate a duel as epic as Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon vs Darth Maul


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## Son Of Man (Dec 3, 2019)

Read somewhere that it could have something to due with not wanting to pay royalties for already made material. Wonder how true that is.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 3, 2019)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I still am upset that Disney declared the expanded universe non-canon, but I have found a way to make myself feel better about it; in Marvel and DC comics, there are so many different timelines, continuities, and alternate realities that it is nearly impossible to keep track of all of them, so is that a good method for thinking of _Star Wars,_ that the novels and other stories of the expanded universe are simply only timeline out of many?



Every time a franchise does this, I just treat it that way. It happens a lot. Look at Halloween, or Godzilla. Especially Godzilla. Yet no one cries that "Godzilla Vs Megaguirus" removed "Godzilla Vs Mechagodzilla" from the timeline. It's just a different continuity.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 3, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Read somewhere that it could have something to due with not wanting to pay royalties for already made material. Wonder how true that is.



Yes, a friend of mine said that, as well, so that does seem to be the most logical explanation, in my mind.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 4, 2019)

Something else about the new movies that bugs me: the way the music is used. On top of the soundtrack not really living up to that of the previous films, the music doesn't get to stand out. I understand that sensibilities in cinema have changed, but _Star Wars_ is old-fashioned, and a space _opera_ at that. Let the music stand out.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 4, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> It's a sign the music is used as an afterthought and not as an enhancer of the visual storytelling.


Guess what lucas never did.


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## Mider T (Dec 4, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Dec 4, 2019)

So apparently J.J Abrams said that "The Force Awakens" went through a more difficult production than "Rise of Skywalker", with even more reshoots. I don't think this is necessarily a lie because it's a strange thing to say, but has this ever been reported? It seems like "The Force Awakens" was one of the only movies in the NT that did not go through serious reshoots, although I can't remember any behind-the-scenes problems plaguing "The Last Jedi" either. Why does it seem like the leaks are more prominent now? 

He's also claiming there haven't been any test screenings, which seems odd for a Star Wars flick. Somehow, the idea of this not getting test screened seems more disturbing than the reports of disastrous test screenings -- because the whole point of them is to find out what the problems are and fix them. "Wonder Woman", "Halloween (2018)" and "Deadpool 2" also tested poorly, with "Deadpool 2" even being called a disaster after being screened for test audiences, yet they turned out fine. Now that I think about it, John Carpenter claimed "Halloween" didn't go through any test screenings after the initial reports came out too. I can't remember if anyone spoiled anything that would give validity to the alleged "Halloween" screenings, but I do recall hearing that Halloween's ending was reshot. 

I could buy into the fandom falling victim to rumor. I sometimes watch "Midnight's Edge" and they blur their opinions with facts in ways that can be misleading. The end of their latest video falls back on "What I'm hearing..." by alleged insiders and we're expected to take their word on it. But on the other hand, Abrams is not above misleading audiences himself. It would definitely not surprise me if Disney notices these "leaks" and then starts manufacturing their own to muddy the waters. 

I really struggle with buying that Disney hasn't tested Rise of Skywalker at least once. But I guess even that statement can both be true and false. Maybe the rough cut was informally tested, which wouldn't technically count as a real test screening? I dunno, I guess we won't really know much else until the movie is out.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 4, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Sure, but you don't like any of these films, right? So why worry? Worst case scenario, it's just the same ole stuff. It's only the fans of the ST who should be really worried.



I don't like them, but that doesn't mean I won't see it while sailing on pirate infested waters with friends.
So it would be just another disappointment if they screwed up even something so inherently epic.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 4, 2019)

2 weeks left until premier


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 4, 2019)




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## Son Of Man (Dec 4, 2019)

Jar jars actor is hosting a star wars show for kids


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## Djomla (Dec 4, 2019)

Mace should come back to finish what he started.

Reactions: Like 2


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 4, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Then why do you care if I misread your posts? Why do you waste time responding to me goofing off with your intense clarifications?


Why do you act as if you are not doing exactly what you are spouting?

I think you're just obsessed.


MartialHorror said:


> I think you just want Senpai Horror to notice you.


And shit like this just proves it.


MShadows said:


> They can use Duel of the Fates OST all they want, but they’ll never be able to replicate a duel as epic as Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon vs Darth Maul


They will never replicate anything as epic as any of the SW trilogy pre-TFA because these hacks only know two things, recycle shit or get woke nonsense.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 4, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Jar jars actor is hosting a star wars show for kids


Meesa thinks jar jar doing good.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 4, 2019)




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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 4, 2019)

Im debating whether to go see this on the 19-th


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## Son Of Man (Dec 4, 2019)

is that opening night?


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 4, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> is that opening night?



Yes, December 19th is opening night. I'll be going on the 19th to see the film.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 5, 2019)

Mandalorian will help ep9s Box Office

it is known


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 5, 2019)

Ep9 never needed "help"   y'all are crazy!

Reactions: Like 2


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## MShadows (Dec 5, 2019)

After the disappointment that was TLJ a part of the fans won’t be bothering with this one, that’s for sure.

At worst, they’ll just wait for a HQ camrip and save their money.


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## blakstealth (Dec 5, 2019)




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## Mider T (Dec 5, 2019)

MShadows said:


> After the disappointment that was TLJ a part of the fans won’t be bothering with this one, that’s for sure.
> 
> At worst, they’ll just wait for a HQ camrip and save their money.


Pre sales say you're wrong.  In fact box office returns for TLJ say you're wrong too.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 5, 2019)

1.5B


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 5, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Pre sales say you're wrong.  In fact box office returns for TLJ say you're wrong too.


Pre sales prove you wrong since even the most optimistic has it selling less than TLJ. In fact TLJ having the biggest drop in SW history and Solo bombing prove you wrong.


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## Mider T (Dec 5, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Pre sales prove you wrong since even the most optimistic has it selling less than TLJ. In fact TLJ having the biggest drop in SW history and Solo bombing prove you wrong.


"Less than TLJ" isn't a failure when theaters are already selling out on opening night.

Who gives a fuck about Solo though?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 5, 2019)

So I saw in the news that Episode 9 had its first formal... official... confirmed... screening and it went very well, although I guess that doesn't mean too much because I feel like these kinds of screenings always go well. I remember when "Batman Vs Superman" actually had a successful first real screening... so yeah.. They also confirmed that reshoots went on at least through October.



NostalgiaFan said:


> I never realized I had the power to induce Alzheimer's, here I thought you were too lazy and stupid to just click on a different page to check back.



Your posts are truly that powerful.

Edit: Your posts also apparently have the ability to turn back time, considering how often chunks of our debates seem to mysteriously vanish.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 5, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Pre sales prove you wrong since even the most optimistic has it selling less than TLJ. In fact TLJ having the biggest drop in SW history and Solo bombing prove you wrong.



Just out of curiosity, why do you think "The Last Jedi" sold more tickets than "Revenge of the Sith"? I remember you arguing that "Attack of the Clones" had more competition and to be fair, you're not wrong about that. But "Revenge of the Sith" only had "Madagascar", which now that I look at it, ended up being "Revenge of the Sith"''s own "Jumanji", as no one expected much from it and it overtook its #1 spot in the 3rd week of release, if I'm reading this correctly. 

I'm not really trying to pick a fight here, I'm just wondering your theory.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 5, 2019)

Mider T said:


> "Less than TLJ" isn't a failure when theaters are already selling out on opening night.


Selling out on opening night does not change the fact it is doing less than TLJ which was the point from the beginning Einstein. Far less people are going to see this and that is a fact even the most optimistic of reports are showing.


Mider T said:


> Who gives a fuck about Solo though?


The people who wasted 275 mill on it. The fact it outright bombed tells anyone with a brain in their skull SW hype is dying out and only the most thick headed can say otherwise,


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 5, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Your posts are truly that powerful.


Only ever happens with you so I guess that says more about how mentally weak you are.


MartialHorror said:


> Your posts also apparently have the ability to turn back time, considering how often chunks of our debates seem to mysteriously vanish.


Bad memory on you part if you can't remember.


MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, why do you think "The Last Jedi" sold more tickets than "Revenge of the Sith"?


There is nothing saying that TLJ sold more because all we have are domestic numbers so this is just a pointless question.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 5, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Only ever happens with you so I guess that says more about how mentally weak you are.
> 
> Bad memory on you part if you can't remember.
> 
> There is nothing saying that TLJ sold more because all we have are domestic numbers so this is just a pointless question.



-- You can't tell I'm joking? Lighten up, dude.

-- Star Wars has always been at its most popular in America.  You know this, because you tried to use that knowledge against me once... or don't you remember? But fine, dodge the question.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 5, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> -- You can't tell I'm joking? Lighten up, dude.


>still thinks I am taking him seriously

Like I said before you are bad at reading into things. 


MartialHorror said:


> Star Wars has always been at its most popular in America.


Except Episode 3 sold more overseas than at home so once again you're wrong.


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## Jake CENA (Dec 5, 2019)

fuck this franchise


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 5, 2019)

just kiss already you two


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 5, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> just kiss already you two


 Death.Taxes. bickering in Star Wars threads.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Dec 5, 2019)

Have you guys seen this?

Reactions: Like 3


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## MShadows (Dec 5, 2019)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Have you guys seen this?


I consider this canon.

Incredibly well done. See, this is what happens when true fans create material. Not the crap we have nowadays.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 5, 2019)

Someone argued that "The Mandalorian" could boost sales for "Rise of Skywalker", but couldn't the opposite be true as well? Theater sales in general are apparently on a decline with the rise of streaming services, so... theoretically... maybe people will figure they can get quality Star Wars entertainment at home, so will feel less inclined to pay to see more?

I guess it depends on whether or not people end up liking RoS.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Dec 5, 2019)

I want palps to hint at more darkside users lurking in other galaxies


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 5, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Someone argued that "The Madolorian" could boost sales for "Rise of Skywalker", but couldn't the opposite be true as well? Theater sales in general are apparently on a decline with the rise of streaming services, so... theoretically... maybe people will figure they can get quality Star Wars entertainment at home, so will feel less inclined to pay to see more?
> 
> I guess it depends on whether or not people end up liking RoS.


I don't believe this. Movies are making more money than they ever have.

There has been 7 billion(s) dollar movies this year which is likely a new record. 

I think this will be the 8th


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 5, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't believe this. _Mouse Movies_ are making more money than they ever have.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 5, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> The Madolorian


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## Kuromaku (Dec 6, 2019)

Movies are making more in terms of individual blockbusters making hundreds of millions worldwide. They're event pictures designed to do just that. However, as a whole, fewer studio movies are being made since there's a general stratification between blockbusters and lower-budget prestige pictures.

As always, my expectations are low for the movie. It's J.J. Abrams, so at best, it's going to be entertaining but forgettable; at worst, it's going to be the shit pellets on the crap sundae. I miss the days when _Star Wars_ actually involved movies worth watching decades after the fact.


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## Garcher (Dec 6, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't believe this. Movies are making more money than they ever have.
> 
> There has been 7 billion(s) dollar movies this year which is likely a new record.
> 
> I think this will be the 8th


Movies are making more money because of inflation and a growing audience around the world


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 6, 2019)

Garcher said:


> Movies are making more money because of inflation and a growing audience around the world


Which goes against what he said..


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## Garcher (Dec 6, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Which goes against what he said..


There's no doubt that movie theaters have lost cultural relevance.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 6, 2019)

Garcher said:


> There's no doubt that movie theaters have lost cultural relevance.


There is doubt. Every big movie I see is packed to the point that I need to order my ticket an hour in advance .

Every big movie I see was a trending topic for at least the month they're released.

People still reference thanos  who is now ingrained in pop culture.

I've notice no dwindling in cultural relevance.  And numbers and seating capacity doesn't back your claims either..soo


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 6, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> There is doubt.



Disney+, Netflix, Hulu, etc. Any streaming service that is priming to replace the movie theater.
Disney is the one that can fill in the gap of "I only want to see this one movie so I go to theater." for the most part going by sales.
(And from what I hear about the mandalorian it's of higher quality than the current films anyway.)

What's worth more, a movie ticket which has loses due to hosting it in various places or... a streaming service where you get full profit.
Imagine paying 15$ once for a month just to see that single movie, it'd still be worth more and if people weren't willing to pay that admission price then it wasn't worth to them to begin with. After all if they're that popular it'll sell anyway right?


> People still reference thanos who is now ingrained in pop culture.


He was ingrained far before the movies dumbass.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 6, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> He was ingrained far before the movies dumbass.


No he wasn't.  The public generally didn't know who thanos was.


Unlosing Ranger said:


> Disney+, Netflix, Hulu, etc. Any streaming service that is priming to replace the movie theater.
> Disney is the one that can fill in the gap of "I only want to see this one movie so I go to theater." for the most part going by sales.
> (And from what I hear about the mandalorian it's of higher quality than the current films anyway.)
> 
> ...


All these words. And you still failed to prove how going to the theater has dwindled in significance


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## MartialHorror (Dec 6, 2019)

I didn't know about Thanos before the movies, but I also don't read comics, so I didn't know of a lot of the Marvel heroes that have headlined their own movies. 

As for fewer people going to the movies, just google it and you'll find a lot of articles and statistics. Here's the first one I saw -- 

Will this matter for Star Wars? Maybe not, as Star Wars is meant to be an event picture. But with "The Mandalorian" being so trendy at the moment, it can either help by promoting interest in the brand or hurt, if people figure they might as well stay indoors to get their Star Wars fix. Either way, it will be interesting.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 6, 2019)

MShadows said:


> When a fan makes better content than an entire Disney studio can put out with only a handful of people



There's some Macross influence in here.


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## Mider T (Dec 6, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I didn't know about Thanos before the movies, but I also don't read comics, so I didn't know of a lot of the Marvel heroes that have headlined their own movies.


Really?  He's pretty famous even if you don't read comics.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 6, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Really?  He's pretty famous even if you don't read comics.



Nope. The only MCU characters I knew about were Iron Man (cause I owned a toy), Incredible Hulk (the old TV show), Captain America (... not sure from where). When I saw the trailer for Thor, I had no idea he had any connections to the MCU, as I only knew of the actual myth. I didn't know he was a comic book character too. 

The only comic I ever read was an X-Men comic, where Jubilee seemed to be the main character who joins the X-men; and then Morph gets killed and Beast gets captured. That is all I remember about it. 

I had never heard of Thanos and when I heard the name the first time, my immediate thought was the final villain in one of the rejected "Freddy Vs Jason" scripts... and I think the actual name was Thanatos... and I could be wrong about that too.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 7, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Really?  He's pretty famous even if you don't read comics.


No he wasn't.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 7, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I didn't know about Thanos before the movies, but I also don't read comics, so I didn't know of a lot of the Marvel heroes that have headlined their own movies.
> 
> As for fewer people going to the movies, just google it and you'll find a lot of articles and statistics. Here's the first one I saw --
> 
> Will this matter for Star Wars? Maybe not, as Star Wars is meant to be an event picture. But with "The Mandalorian" being so trendy at the moment, it can either help by promoting interest in the brand or hurt, if people figure they might as well stay indoors to get their Star Wars fix. Either way, it will be interesting.


But the movies that who are expected to make a tons of money usually do.  Showcase interesting movies on the big screen and people will go to watch.

I'm a avid movie watcher. But I've gone months without going to the theater because the list of movies that were currently showing did not interest me.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 7, 2019)

Thanos most definitely lacked that iconic villain clout before the MCU. He was a big villain but he was far from Magneto or doctor doom level in name recognition.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 7, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> But the movies that who are expected to make a tons of money usually do.  Showcase interesting movies on the big screen and people will go to watch.
> 
> I'm a avid movie watcher. But I've gone months without going to the theater because the list of movies that were currently showing did not interest me.



Sure. Me too. But it just comes down to the masses; the people who don't spend too much of their day on movie forums. This is an unusual situation, where you have a live-action movie and a live-action TV series belonging to the same franchise at the same time. It's hard to say what kind of impact that will have.


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## Xebec (Dec 7, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


>


imagine being a disney shill


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 7, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> imagine being a disney shill


i dont have to imagine


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## Pilaf (Dec 7, 2019)

Speaking of which



But Kennedy has no source material to pull from smh


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 7, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't believe this. Movies are making more money than they ever have.
> 
> There has been 7 billion(s) dollar movies this year which is likely a new record.
> 
> I think this will be the 8th



It will be the 8th, and the only one of the other seven that's not a Disney film was the _Joker_. Or it could be #9, if Frozen 2 keeps up its momentum and makes a billion before _Rise of Skywalker_ hits theatres two weeks from now.

If anything, I think _The Mandalorian _will invigorate people's interest in seeing _The Rise of Skywalker_. Not to mention the fact that it is the final film of the Sequel Trilogy, and the final film of the the nine-film Skywalker Saga.


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## MShadows (Dec 7, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> It will be the 8th, and the only one of the other seven that's not a Disney film was the _Joker_. Or it could be #9, if Frozen 2 keeps up its momentum and makes a billion before _Rise of Skywalker_ hits theatres two weeks from now.
> 
> If anything, I think _The Mandalorian _will invigorate people's interest in seeing _The Rise of Skywalker_. Not to mention the fact that it is the final film of the Sequel Trilogy, and the final film of the the nine-film Skywalker Saga.


The Skywalker Saga ended with Return of the Jedi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 7, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The Skywalker Saga ended with Return of the Jedi.


This movie literally has Skywalker in the title.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Dec 7, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> This movie literally has Skywalker in the title.


Irrelevant. 

The sequels are a downright embarrassment that should never be put in the same group with the initial 6 movies.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 7, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Irrelevant.
> 
> The sequels are a downright embarrassment that should never be put in the same group with the initial 6 movies.


Exactly all these shitty films have been a bad fanfiction whose only purpose is to tarnish the legacy of the original cast and re-set the universe back just to prop up Disney's new cast of chucklefucks.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 7, 2019)

Is ign reliable?


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 7, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Irrelevant.
> 
> The sequels are a downright embarrassment that should never be put in the same group with the initial 6 movies.


Oh so you're talking headcanon.  Gotcha.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Dec 7, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> Is ign reliable?


Dunno, but that's great news. 

They already ruined SW enough.


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## MShadows (Dec 7, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Exactly all these shitty films have been a bad fanfiction whose only purpose is to tarnish the legacy of the original cast and re-set the universe back just to prop up Disney's new cast of chucklefucks.


The sacrilege they committed by destroying Luke's character is unforgivable. 
Even Mark Hamill himself couldn't believe the script when he read it.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 7, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The sacrilege they committed by destroying Luke's character is unforgivable.
> Even Mark Hamill himself couldn't believe the script when he read it.


I still feel bad for him


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## Fang (Dec 8, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> The new tv spot actually uses the duel of fates music.
> Low blow Disney, low blow.
> Anything can be epic if you use that!


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 8, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> Thanos most definitely lacked that iconic villain clout before the MCU. He was a big villain but he was far from Magneto or doctor doom level in name recognition.


Doctor who?


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## ~VK~ (Dec 8, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Doctor who?


Get out and don't come back.


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## Fang (Dec 8, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Oh so you're talking headcanon.  Gotcha.



The ultimate problem with the Sequels is very simple, disregarding anything subjective about what you or I want or didn't want with them: objectively the rift between Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams and major plot inconsistencies, is why there's so much disconnect and lack of continuity in events and overlap in the films, the resonance of how little to no world building, and the fact these three movies take place over the span of literally a handful of days or weeks makes it feel like nothing in ST period is fleshed out.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 8, 2019)

Imagine trying to pull this disrespect with doom in a star wars thread of all threads smfh. He the OG Darth vader smfh.


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## Fang (Dec 8, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> Imagine trying to pull this disrespect with doom in a star wars thread of all threads smfh. He the OG Darth vader smfh.





Fun fact: if it wasn't for Star Wars and George Lucas giving an incredibly generous deal with Marvel to let them publish and make Star Wars comics back in the late 70s to mid 80s, Marvel would've literally gone bankrupt.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 8, 2019)

meh Marvel almost went bankrupt a thousand times.


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## Fang (Dec 8, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> meh Marvel almost went bankrupt a thousand times.



We're talking about the late 70s when they were literally on death's door and chapter 11 bankruptcy, nothing close to that ever before has happened; also remember this is when the gas crisis was going on and rampant inflation was hitting the Western World with the shit going on in the Middle East. DC also had to cancel over thirty of its featured titles, that was the worst period in comic book history finance wise. So nah.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 8, 2019)

Ehh the mid 90's crash seems worse.


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## Fang (Dec 8, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> Ehh the mid 90's crash seems worse.



Not for the overall market from what I've researched and more so not for Marvel Comics, the gas crisis and inflation lead to one of the worst depressions in the American economy and part of the reason why comic sales fell so hard was because consumers had to cut back on unnecessary spending. That's also why the bubble collapsed and why so many of the mom and pop comic book stores don't exist as well. 

Jim Shooter and Roy Thomas also confirmed repeatedly over the years they would've gone completely out of business, so I don't think anything comes as close to what happened in the 70s threatening to end the entire comic book industry from publishers to retailers related to them.



> *1968-1971: sales flatten and start to decline *
> 
> "Comics had always been a cyclical business, and almost everybody in 1971 thought that super heroes must inevitably be on their way out again. That's why there was such a gold rush on to find the next big genre--sword-and-sorcery looked like it might be a contender, and there were a lot of new mystery (watered-down horror comics without much horror), war and western comics being churned out in this period. But the classic Marvel, Stan's Marvel, was still seen as something of a fad (even by Stan himself), and the common wisdom was that everybody was going to be doing something else very soon (possibly in another field entirely.)" - Tom Brevoort
> 
> ...


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 9, 2019)

MShadows said:


> The Skywalker Saga ended with Return of the Jedi.



Thankfully, reality disagrees with you.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 9, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> Thankfully, reality disagrees with you.


Thankfully, majority of the fanbase disagrees with you.


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## MShadows (Dec 9, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> Thankfully, reality disagrees with you.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 9, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> meh Marvel almost went bankrupt a thousand times.


Joining the house of mouse is the best thing ever happen to them

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atem (Dec 9, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> Thankfully, reality disagrees with you.



Why are you thankful for that considering the train wreck this has become?

It's like being thankful for waking up one day, going to eat breakfast, pouring yourself some cereal in a bowl, and instead of cinnamon toast crunch coming out it's just spiders. All of it is just spiders.

Heck, even the detractors of the prequels and the EU can see how bad this is comparatively.

That now they are just copying the EU's homework except in crayon, and with their feet instead of their hands.

Only the truly delusional nutcases over at Spacebattles and SV defend it unironically, and even argue that Kylo Ren is a better character than Darth Revan.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 9, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> Get out and don't come back.


*badumtish*
Marvel has practically outlawed the FF4 even though doom got his own series if I recall.


Catalyst75 said:


> Thankfully, reality disagrees with you.


Man I sure like using the kitchen sink, firing up the oven, turning on the fan,sweeping some dust and being called the avatar master of the elements.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 9, 2019)

In , when fugitive stormtrooper Finn () first meets scavenger Rey () he seems pretty smitten, and the story appeared to tease the idea the two could be a couple — from their “stop holding my hand!” meet-cute, to Finn asking Rey if she has a boyfriend, to Han Solo seeing right through Finn to warn “women always figure out the truth,” to Rey giving him a kiss on the forehead.

But in , the duo was largely kept apart, while a new character, Resistance engineer Rose Tico (Kelly Marie Tran), was introduced, and she gave Finn a smooch after their battle on Crait.

So now here comes , which picks up after a time jump from the events in _The Last Jedi_. With the fate of the Resistance at stake, there’s probably not too much time for romance. But is Finn’s Rey crush still even there?

“I don’t feel like it is,” Boyega tells EW. “I don’t know. The Rose-Finn saga, I still don’t know what _that_ is yet. I think for Finn there’s a bit of confusion, as it happens in real life — you’re feeling somebody else more than the other, and things pop up. I think Finn is in a bit of confusion. Despite all the lightsaber stuff and the fate of the world, Finn still is in his early ’20s going on through.”

As for his friendship with Poe (which, yes, is just platonic, as Isaac recently made clear in ).

“Oscar and I always wanted more together and [director J.J. Abrams] gave us that opportunity,” Boyega says.”We’ve gone on a lot of missions between the last movie and this one so it’s a real opportunity to show some real chemistry that Oscar and I have in real life, which makes it much more enjoyable for everybody to watch.”

More broadly, Boyega says Finn has evolved from the first two films and is now very focused on the Resistance cause. “He’s after what everybody else is after now,” the actor says. “He doesn’t think just about himself. This is like the final stand and Finn is about defeating the guys in front of him and the very movement that kept him from knowing who he truly is.”

Previously, Boyega made headlines after admitting to leaving a _Rise of Skywalker_ script under his bed where it was found by a cleaning crew and ended up on eBay.

“It was me!” Boyega told GMA. “Let me tell you how this went down. It was actually from my apartment, I was moving apartments, and I left my script under my bed. I’m leaving in the morning and [figured that] when I leave I’ll take it [with me]. But then my boys came over, and we started partying a little bit, and then the script just stayed there. And then a few weeks after, this cleaner comes in, finds the script, and puts it on eBay for like [$84] … But it all worked out in the end.”

_The Rise of Skywalker_ opens Dec. 20.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 9, 2019)

Force Awakens: Finding Luke Skywalker 
Last Jedi: convincing Luke Skywalker to do something 
Rise of Skywalker: his closing legacy.


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## Fang (Dec 9, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Force Awakens: Finding Jake Skywalker
> Last Jedi: convincing Jake Skywalker to do something
> Rise of Skywalker: Jake's family name is stolen.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 9, 2019)

Want more darkside


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## Atem (Dec 9, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> @MShadows Like how disappointing it is that people can spend four years complaining that their "grimdark" Star Wars is no more, and decide to try and ruin things for everyone else just to validate themselves? What a way to waste your life away.


How in the world was Star Wars grimdark?

It had a happy ending (before it was retconned out of existence), a ruthless murderer who found redemption in his last moments and reconciled with his family, the Mephistopheles being defeated and his Galactic Empire crumbling to pieces, and it was the embodiment of the hero's journey throughout.

In the new trilogy they destroyed an entire solar system, and not just a planet. They destroyed the seat of government for the entire galaxy. Which is liable to thrust the whole galaxy into turmoil now that they have nobody to direct anything. 

They turned Luke Skywalker into a pessimistic asshole. Who almost killed his nephew in his sleep. When before he was idealistic, and believed in redemption.

They killed off Han Solo, and had his own son kill him. Just like they killed off Luke Skywalker.

They had child soldiers like Finn. Which the First Order kidnapped from a young age, and forced into slavery.

They handwave Finn. When he should have been an important character, and rip away his only chance at redemption. 

They rendered Luke Skywalker's, and Darth Vader's efforts in the original trilogy totally meaningless.

The new SJW Wars is absolutely hopeless. After this, the galaxy will be thrust into an age of strife and mayhem that will last for thousands of years.

No matter if the villains are defeated or not. All because everything leading up to it is so god damn horrible.

The argument that "OG fans don't like it anymore because it's Disney, and light-hearted now" is bullshit.

When the exact opposite speaks true.

Disney is so horrible at this. That they somehow made it _much_ darker. Whilst acting like it is all gum drops, ice cream, and gender studies rejects with pink hair.

The dissonance is fucking staggering.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 9, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> How in the world was Star Wars grimdark?
> 
> It had a happy ending (before it was retconned out of existence), a ruthless murderer who found redemption in his last moments and reconciled with his family, the Mephistopheles being defeated and his Galactic Empire crumbling to pieces, and it was the embodiment of the hero's journey throughout.
> 
> ...


All this reminds me of Gundam seed destiny which acted like it had a happy ending except when looking at the setting realistically it's all fucked with no sign of hope.


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## Kaaant (Dec 9, 2019)

The fact daisy is getting necked in the media right now couldn’t come at a greater time. Just looking at the leaks and going on classically pro st subreddits and seeing them shit on 9 as a result is fantastic. I truly cannot wait to see what a shit show this will cause. And reylo getting dunked on epic style is something I shall enjoy seeing when I illegally view this movie online.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kaaant (Dec 9, 2019)

BBC warning of the film said that supposedly someone’s face gets melted off which can only be palpatine, further supporting the leaks.


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## Xebec (Dec 9, 2019)




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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 9, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


>


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## Kaaant (Dec 9, 2019)

The film was in constant flux until a few weeks ago. 

Venom palpatine is hilarious


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## Fang (Dec 9, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


>



Yeah, been a while but we all know this is going to be bad.


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## Xebec (Dec 9, 2019)

Most likely not real but at this any shit you read could be legit

Based on the leak on the SW leak subreddit it still sounds fucking awful


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## MShadows (Dec 9, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> Most likely not real but at this any shit you read could be legit
> 
> Based on the leak on the SW leak subreddit it still sounds fucking awful


If that shit is real them this’ll be worse than even TLJ.


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## Xebec (Dec 9, 2019)

MShadows said:


> If that shit is real them this’ll be worse than even TLJ.




Sadly not real it looks like, shame


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## Suigetsu (Dec 10, 2019)

The trainwreck is going home.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 10, 2019)

Do you know what I think would improve Rey's character arc? If throughout "The Last Jedi", she was shown to be growing arrogant, as if she herself is beginning to assume she was the 'chosen one' based on her successes... only for when Kylo Ren to drop the reveal that she's no one, she'd have a bigger reason to be upset -- only to make peace with it. 

I don't really know why they didn't go with that. Maybe it didn't fit with the 'girl power' message they're pushing, but it's strange as at least on some level, that seemed to be the idea. 

It's actually strange how Finn has had the only real character development, at least throughout "The Force Awakens". His arc in "The Last Jedi" at least partially didn't work because he's learning a lesson that he should've already known in the first place, as a soldier for the First Order himself. 

It doesn't bother me too much, as I find even Luke's development in the OT to be a little problematic, but hey... film criticism is fun that way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 10, 2019)

I know people had high expectations for Finn. But I liked his storyline as well .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kaaant (Dec 10, 2019)

Finn has been stupid from the moment he was broken out of his conditioning. Ok so he recognises that he was a mindless drone his entire life with no identity; so now he’s going to cheer when he kills his fellow troopers who are just like him

Ok jj



MartialHorror said:


> as if she herself is beginning to assume she was the 'chosen one'



I mean she literally is. Palpatine returns, and in fact never died in ROTJ supposedly. And if the leaks are to be believed she beats him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Dec 10, 2019)

Kaaant said:


> Finn has been stupid from the moment he was broken out of his conditioning. Ok so he recognises that he was a mindless drone his entire life with no identity; so now he’s going to cheer when he kills his fellow troopers who are just like him
> 
> Ok jj
> 
> ...



I don't want to know what the leaks say, even if "Rey beats Palpatine" is presumably a foregone conclusion. Keep that shit in spoiler tags.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 10, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Do you know what I think would improve Rey's character arc? If throughout "The Last Jedi", she was shown to be growing arrogant, as if she herself is beginning to assume she was the 'chosen one' based on her successes... only for when Kylo Ren to drop the reveal that she's no one, she'd have a bigger reason to be upset -- only to make peace with it.
> 
> I don't really know why they didn't go with that.



Considering "The Last Jedi" takes place right after "The Force Awakens", I believe they went with what they did with Rey to continue her arc from the first film, which is also something I consider to be an interesting contrast to Luke in particular.

In "A New Hope", Luke learned who he was and decided he would become a Jedi like his father, though this was after his Aunt and Uncle were killed and there became nothing left for him on Tatooine. On the other hand, in "Force Awakens", Rey wanted to return to Jakku because she believed her family would come back for her. She didn't immediately choose to embrace the path of a Jedi after Maz Kanata helped her realize her parent's weren't coming back, nor did she let go of them. She learns something new about herself, but doesn't yet understand what it means.

Star Wars films have a tendency to use ring composition in their story-telling, and the same is true between "Empire Strikes Back" and "The Last Jedi", as both Luke and Rey learn or realize something that changes their perception of themselves. For Luke in "Empire", it was learning that his father, a Jedi Knight who died at the hand of Darth Vader, had actually turned to the Dark Side to become Darth Vader, something that greatly shaped Luke's character going into "Return of the Jedi" and how he saw himself.

For Rey, she knows she can use the Force and knows her parents aren't coming back for her, but she is still uncertain of her place in everything and, as she tells Luke, feels she needs someone to show her what that is. This, in turn, eventually leads to her trying to find out who her parents are, hoping that will tell her who she is and what her place is. Though it may be subject to a new reveal in "Rise of Skywalker", realizing that her parents were nobody and she had "no place in the story" is, for the Rey, the worst thing she could have heard. 

Because of that, it wouldn't make sense for Rey to arrogantly presume she was 'the chosen one'. 

It also means the closure she is looking for will come in "Rise of Skywalker", and I look forward to seeing what that is.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 10, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


>


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## Son Of Man (Dec 10, 2019)

Movie score is online. You can listen to it. Also tracklist got leaked.


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## Xebec (Dec 10, 2019)

possible last minute details


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## Pilaf (Dec 10, 2019)

The more I hear about this, the more I'll be glad when we can put it all behind us and see if Star Wars' legacy can survive.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 10, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> possible last minute details


If this is anywhere close to final it just confirms the previous leaks because so many of these scenes sound like choppy corrections to the ones described before and make even less sense.


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## Fel1x (Dec 10, 2019)

oh, NF has Star Wars thread I didn't know about

well, is there anybody who accept things in episode 8 and leaked shit from 9? or is there anyone who like it?

Episode 8 Luke was a very bad fanfiction. not really  a "fan" fiction, it was a fiction so out of the character and so out of canon (1-6 eps)

Legends>>>> new Disney canon

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Dec 10, 2019)

Those last minute details sound even worse.


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## Fel1x (Dec 10, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Those last minute details sound even worse.


Execute Order 67

I didn't read the whole leak (to have a little bit of interest seeing this fanfiction in cinema)

also episode 9 shits on episodes 1-6 story, everything about Anakin, about prophecy, lore and on fans


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## MShadows (Dec 10, 2019)

Fel1x said:


> Execute Order 67
> 
> I didn't read the whole leak (to have a little bit of interest seeing this fanfiction in cinema)
> 
> also episode 9 shits on episodes 1-6 story, everything about Anakin, about prophecy, lore and on fans


I couldn’t read everything as it was tldr and also too much nonsense...

Anyway, regardless of how accurate these leaks are... SW has been completely buried.

I hope this is the final SW Disney film, at least for a while. 

The only thing I’m still interested in is the upcoming Obi-Wan series because of Ewan McGregor, but I fear they’ll fuck him up beyond repair as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Harbour (Dec 10, 2019)

Short summary of my thoughts:

*Spoiler*: __ 




-Palpatine returned god knows how just to be shitfaced 2 hours later?
-Mace Windu is in the movie but Anakin fooking Skywalker isnt?
-Creepy psycho maniac managed to kiss the girl he still wanted to kill 30 minutes prior that? She kissed him back?!
-Rey ended up on another sand planet to live? What a fooking character journey.
-She is Palpatine but took the name of Skywalkers, who were as shitty people as Sheev?



This is it? This is the happy ending? This is as bitter ending as possible. Most Saga characters were dumped on one way or another, including ST characters. Thank you for nothing, Disney, because bad things will be forgotten in time.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 10, 2019)

Fel1x said:


> Execute Order 67
> 
> I didn't read the whole leak (to have a little bit of interest seeing this fanfiction in cinema)
> 
> also episode 9 shits on episodes 1-6 story, everything about Anakin, about prophecy, lore and on fans


You would be better to pay for another movie and sneak in to avoid wasting your dollars on this garbage or more easily pirate it online.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 10, 2019)

Lol at Palpy containing the spirits of all the previous sith lords.
.


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## MShadows (Dec 10, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Lol at Palpy containing the spirits of all the previous sith lords.
> .



*Spoiler*: __ 




All those spirits and he couldn’t even best his noob granddaughter 

Big brain Disney


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## Fel1x (Dec 10, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I couldn’t read everything as it was tldr and also too much nonsense...
> 
> Anyway, regardless of how accurate these leaks are... SW has been completely buried.
> 
> ...


Mandalorian is good. yes, partly because of lil Yoda alone, but still I like it
so Obi-Wan might be good too


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## Fel1x (Dec 10, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Lol at Palpy containing the spirits of all the previous sith lords.
> .


all previous sith lords? greatest of them are not even in canon now. fuck that shit


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## MShadows (Dec 10, 2019)

Fel1x said:


> Mandalorian is good. yes, partly because of lil Yoda alone, but still I like it
> so Obi-Wan might be good too


I heard it’s pretty good but haven’t watched it.


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## Fel1x (Dec 10, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> You would be better to pay for another movie and sneak in to avoid wasting your dollars on this garbage or more easily pirate it online.


that's exactly what my friend said to me. "won't give money to Disney"
but the wait till decent HD pirate copy of episode 9 will be too much. cinema tickets in my country are not than expensive compared to Europe or USA anyway


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## Fel1x (Dec 10, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I heard it’s pretty good but haven’t watched it.


Mandalorian feels far more starwarsish than new trilogy
it reminds me of some space western


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 10, 2019)

Fel1x said:


> that's exactly what my friend said to me. "won't give money to Disney"
> but the wait till decent HD pirate copy of episode 9 will be too much. cinema tickets in my country are not than expensive compared to Europe or USA anyway


The pay for another film and sneak option is still on the table than


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## Son Of Man (Dec 10, 2019)

Force avatars


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## Vault (Dec 11, 2019)

Gonna gonna rack in a lot of money 

I'm just here for the shit show hahaa

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 11, 2019)

Palps

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 11, 2019)

I'm actually buying a ticket next week.

There's no stopping this. I already sold my soul to the mouse!

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 11, 2019)

My Star Wars marathon starts tomorrow. 

Gonna actually try watching the prequels first this time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 11, 2019)

Ive spoiled myself with the leaks, so actually held off on going for now

but if @~Gesy~ will approve it than I will buy a ticket

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 11, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Ive spoiled myself with the leaks, so actually held off on going for now
> 
> but if @~Gesy~ will approve it than I will buy a ticket


How important does the leaks say Palpatine is to the story ?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 11, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> How important does the leaks say Palpatine is to the story ?


you really want to know even tho you're going .. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



VERY important



of course its still unconfirmed leak afaik

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 11, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Thanks. I originally had feelings that they were trying to trick us and he' was only gonna have like..5 minutes of screentime.


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## MShadows (Dec 11, 2019)

And after you see the movie...


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## dr_shadow (Dec 11, 2019)

I. Thursday: Phantom Menace
II. Friday: Attack of the Clones
III. Saturday: Revenge of the Sith

IV. Sunday: A New Hope
V. Monday: The Empire Strikes Back
VI. Tuesday: Return of the Jedi

VII. Wednesday: The Force Awakens
VIII. Thursday: The Last Jedi
IX. Friday:* Rise of Skywalker*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 11, 2019)

Best pool your money for tombstone they sound like they hell bent on killing the franchise. 

Imagine the had legends to take inspiration form and they said no lol


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## Son Of Man (Dec 11, 2019)

Is there a definitive list of spoilers? Seen conflicting spoilers.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 11, 2019)




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## Suigetsu (Dec 11, 2019)

Man this thing isnt even out and you can tell its a dumpster of fire judging by the actor's reactions and damage control press.


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## Mider T (Dec 11, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> Man this thing isnt even out and you can tell its a dumpster of fire judging by the actor's reactions and damage control press.


Lol you're on a roll of wrong today.


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## Xebec (Dec 11, 2019)

disney shills are almost as bad as k-pop fans


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## MartialHorror (Dec 11, 2019)

I just noticed "Cats" is being released on the same day as Episode 9 and I wonder... how is that going to work out?

People have been debating on whether or not "Star Wars: Episode 9" will be a success or a disaster, but everyone seems to have assumed that "Cats" is doomed, as rumors claim it cost 300 million and has had a bizarre marketing campaign, yet I've maintained that the movie might survive if it's good. Personally, I think it looks fascinating, even though I'm not entirely sure if it's the right kind of fascination. 

So you have two highly expensive products with a very divisive buildup, coming out on the same way. I'm going to assume "Star Wars" will win, especially for the opening weekend, but it's possible "Cats" will be its "Jumanji" -- if "Cats" turns out to be good, anyway. Yikes, if it cost anywhere near $300 million though, someone f@cked up, as the reported budget was supposed to be 95 million according to wikipedia.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Dec 11, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Dec 11, 2019)

So... any word on these smaller projects that Lucas said he would develop with his Disney money? Even though most of his non-Star Wars, non-Indiana Jones movies haven't worked out, I do find them interesting and inspired in their own way. I need to see "The Radioland Murders".


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## MShadows (Dec 11, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


>


Damn!


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 11, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> disney shills are almost as bad as k-pop fans


Naw they are far worst


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## Pilaf (Dec 11, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> So... any word on these smaller projects that Lucas said he would develop with his Disney money? Even though most of his non-Star Wars, non-Indiana Jones movies haven't worked out, I do find them interesting and inspired in their own way. I need to see "The Radioland Murders".




I was kinda looking forward to those smaller films. The only one I know of was some hackneyed CGI shit about fairies, though, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't small or independent, so who knows. It's Lucas. He's senile.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Dec 11, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I was kinda looking forward to those smaller films. The only one I know of was some hackneyed CGI shit about fairies, though, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't small or independent, so who knows. It's Lucas. He's senile.



Honestly... this is why I tend to roll my eyes when people say they should give it back to Lucas... or alternatively, when Disney says he was a consultant for the new films. Lucas doesn't even seem like he wants to do much filmmaking these days.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 11, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I just noticed "Cats" is being released on the same day as Episode 9 and I wonder... how is that going to work out?
> 
> People have been debating on whether or not "Star Wars: Episode 9" will be a success or a disaster, but everyone seems to have assumed that "Cats" is doomed, as rumors claim it cost 300 million and has had a bizarre marketing campaign, yet I've maintained that the movie might survive if it's good. Personally, I think it looks fascinating, even though I'm not entirely sure if it's the right kind of fascination.
> 
> So you have two highly expensive products with a very divisive buildup, coming out on the same way. I'm going to assume "Star Wars" will win, especially for the opening weekend, but it's possible "Cats" will be its "Jumanji" -- if "Cats" turns out to be good, anyway. Yikes, if it cost anywhere near $300 million though, someone f@cked up, as the reported budget was supposed to be 95 million according to wikipedia.



I donno about Cats, but I found this visualisation of what the Chinese box office will look like next week:


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## dr_shadow (Dec 11, 2019)

There's also this actual scene in Rogue One, which I forgot about:


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## MartialHorror (Dec 11, 2019)

This is an interesting video series detailing troubled productions, a subject I'm always fascinated by. He also covered "Rogue One" in the previous video.

I'd be interested if any footage of the Lord and Miller footage... which apparently has Alden Ehrenreich resembling Ace Ventura more than Solo.


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## Zef (Dec 12, 2019)

Does Finn do anything remarkable in any of the spoilers?


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## MShadows (Dec 12, 2019)

Zef said:


> Does Finn do anything remarkable in any of the spoilers?


He exists.


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## Zef (Dec 12, 2019)

Hol up


*Spoiler*: __ 



 I hear that Rey and Kylo kiss?




This the same dude that killed Han, and indirectly killed Luke.
WTF Rey!?


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## Abcdjdj1234 (Dec 12, 2019)

Zef said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> *I hear that Rey and Kylo kiss?*






*Spoiler*: __ 



and people thought Sasusaku was bad


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 12, 2019)

reylo


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## dr_shadow (Dec 12, 2019)

So I saw The Phantom Menace (1999).

To my surprise, I didn't find it godawful. There are some *amazing visuals* in this movie, considering it came out twenty years ago. There's landscapes and creatures here that at the time would have only been seen in video games, not on the big screen with a feature budget. Lucas' main mission is clearly to create a breathtaking space-fantasy world, and in this regard I think he succeeds.

Unfortunately, the plot and character development becomes merely a mechanism to get us from one stunning planet to the next stunning planet. The only scene where I found myself a little bit emotionally moved was when Anakin says good-bye to his mom prior to going off with Qui-Gon.

For the first time I wasn't bothered by the fact that Anakin both wins a professional pod-race and destroys a droid control ship within the span of like two days, because we've established earlier that he has a higher midiclorian count than Yoda, so I now realize that it's *supposed* to jaw-dropping that a 10-year old is able to do all these amazing Force-assisted feats with no training. You're meant to wonder what kind of god-level Jedi he's going to turn into when he learns to control these powers that he's currently just using intuitively.

The writing feels young adult-level, kind of like Jupiter Ascending (2015) or Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets (2017). If you accept the movie as a self-insert fantasy for people in their late childhood or early teens, I don't think it's horrible. This time I actually didn't mind the under-writing of Darth Maul, because I see that he's just a first boss to help introduce the notion of the Sith being back, rather than central character in his own right.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Dec 12, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> So I saw The Phantom Menace (1999).
> 
> To my surprise, I didn't find it godawful. There are some *amazing visuals* in this movie, considering it came out twenty years ago. There's landscapes and creatures here that at the time would have only been seen in video games, not on the big screen with a feature budget. Lucas' main mission is clearly to create a breathtaking space-fantasy world, and in this regard I think he succeeds.
> 
> ...


First time?  Still my favorite Star Wars movie.  Especially because of this epic poster



Also 17,100

Reactions: Like 2


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## dr_shadow (Dec 12, 2019)

Mider T said:


> First time?



Obviously not, but I've always watched them in production order and dismissed Lucas' claims that "they all line up!" as contrived retcons.

But now as an experiment I'm watching them in the order Lucas wants people to watch them, with as open a mind as possible. I'm trying to see this grand vision that he claims is in there.

While it's too early to say after just one film, I do think I see it _more_ than I used to. I can kind of appreciate what he was going for.

The main problem if you were to hypothetically show this to someone as their first Star Wars film is that there's almost no explanation of what the Jedi or the Force are. The lightsabers and Force pushes come out in almost the first scene, but the infamous midiclorian lecture doesn't come until 90 minutes into the movie. To someone who hasn't seen the original trilogy the Force might be as opaque as what The One Ring actually does.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Dec 12, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Obviously not, but I've always watched them in production order and dismissed Lucas' claims that "they all line up!" as contrived retcons.


How is it a retcon when starting with Episode V, there were episodes...that clearly didn't start with one.  Lucas had the story planned out from the start and it's kind of obvious to see that; A New Hope feels like we were dropped in the middle of a story.  We hear all the tales about a forgone Republic and a veteran of that time dies an hour into the movie.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 12, 2019)

Mider T said:


> How is it a retcon when starting with Episode V, there were episodes...that clearly didn't start with one.  Lucas had the story planned out from the start and it's kind of obvious to see that; A New Hope feels like we were dropped in the middle of a story.  We hear all the tales about a forgone Republic and a veteran of that time dies an hour into the movie.



I thought the episode numbers weren't added until the 1990's (around the 1997 Special Edition?), when Episode I was well into development?


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## Mider T (Dec 12, 2019)

The original Theatrical release of Episode IV just said "A New Hope" then episode numbers were added starting with The Empire Strikes Back.  IIRC Lucas had to determine how much of Anakim's story to include in the original trilogy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 12, 2019)

Mider T said:


> The original Theatrical release of Episode IV just said "A New Hope" then episode numbers were added starting with The Empire Strikes Back.  IIRC Lucas had to determine how much of Anakim's story to include in the original trilogy.



Huh, quick Wiki says you're right about Empire having the "V" upon release. I stand corrected.

Still, there are things in the prequel trilogy that clearly seem contrived, especially in Revenge of the Sith. Like how Obi-Wan just casually takes Anakin's lightsaber off the ground to give to Luke years later, and (especially) how they wipe C-3PO's memory for no reason to explain why he doesn't recognize Obi-Wan or anyone else in the OT.

Or how about the gaping inconsistency that Leia claims to (vaguely) remember her birth mother, even though Padme died in childbirth. Luke says _in the same scene_ that he has no memory of his mother. If they're twins, then their memory or non-memory of their mother should be the same, as they were separated from her at the same time.

If Lucas had a clear idea of the exact circumstances of Padme's death at the time of writing Return of the Jedi, he wouldn't have phrased that scene in such a retroactively confusing way. It's much more likely that he initially envisioned that Padme had survived and raised Leia for at least a little while (say, up to age one or two?) before dying of a broken heart.

When he claims to have "written" the prequels at the same time as the OT, what I think that means is that he had a general *outline* of broadly what had happened before (e.g. there was a WW2 analogy called the Clone Wars), but he hadn't refined it to the level of detail where he knew that a comic-relief Jamaican swamp creature would be instrumental to the Emperor's ascent to power.


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## Mider T (Dec 12, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Huh, quick Wiki says you're right about Empire having the "V" upon release. I stand corrected.


I know I'm right, I'm Mider T.  And you'd better be standing and not sitting.


mr_shadow said:


> Still, there are things in the prequel trilogy that clearly seem contrived, especially in Revenge of the Sith. Like how Obi-Wan just casually takes Anakin's lightsaber off the ground to give to Luke years later, and (especially) how they wipe C-3PO's memory for no reason to explain why he doesn't recognize Obi-Wan or anyone else in the OT.
> 
> Or how about the gaping inconsistency that Leia claims to (vaguely) remember her birth mother, even though Padme died in childbirth. Luke says _in the same scene_ that he has no memory of his mother. If they're twins, then their memory or non-memory of their mother should be the same, as they were separated from her at the same time.
> 
> ...


Probably right about the outline, but most of it can easily be explained.
It's not a stretch to think that Bail Organa would wipe the droids' memories.
Obi-Wan keeping Anakin's lightsaber isn't that unusual either, especially if he already had the plan somewhat to go to Tatooine and watch over Luke.
Leia's memory = the Force.  Her father was powerful enough to see the future he didn't actually witness in person, it doesn't strain to think that Leia could do the same with the past.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 12, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Probably right about the outline, but most of it can easily be explained.
> It's not a stretch to think that Bail Organa would wipe the droids' memories.
> Obi-Wan keeping Anakin's lightsaber isn't that unusual either, especially if he already had the plan somewhat to go to Tatooine and watch over Luke.
> Leia's memory = the Force.  Her father was powerful enough to see the future he didn't actually witness in person, it doesn't strain to think that Leia could do the same with the past.



Sorry, but this sounds like a headcanon rationalization of poor writing.

I admit it feels better to attempt _some_ rationalization rather than accept that there are internal contradictions in the story you're trying to immerse yourself in, but it's a retroactive rationalization and not something that was there originally.

E.g. Obi-Wan tells Luke that when he first met Anakin "he was already a famous pilot". Now, in the prequels I guess this is technically true, as he had just won the Boonta Eve pod-race hours before meeting Obi-Wan for the first time, but there's no mention of pod-racing in the OT, so we naturally assume that Anakin was the pilot of a *starship* and not a land-based vehicle. TBH I don't think pod racers were ever referred to as "pilots" by any character other than Anakin himself. The word choice "already famous" also makes it sound like he had been so for a little more than just a couple of hours.

I'm pretty confident there was no pod race in that first outline of A New Hope. To me it's clearly something that he added in the 90's because he thought it'd make a cool action scene.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 12, 2019)

By the way, legal streaming in mainland China is fucking glorious. 

A* one-year* subscription to Youku VIP (who have the legal streaming rights to Star Wars in China) cost me just over ￥100 yuan ($14), which is roughly what* one month* of Netflix costs.


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## Pilaf (Dec 12, 2019)

Watching the SW movies "in order" kind of fucks up the surprise in Empire Strikes Back, which was clearly for the audience and not for Luke.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 12, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Watching the SW movies "in order" kind of fucks up the surprise in Empire Strikes Back, which was clearly for the audience and not for Luke.



I'm mostly excited about watching the OT with the perspective that Vader is the protagonist, rather than Luke. I'm gonna have to compare how much screen time they respectively have.  I do remember that we cut to Vader's activities a lot.


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## Pilaf (Dec 12, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I'm mostly excited about watching the OT with the perspective that Vader is the protagonist, rather than Luke. I'm gonna have to compare how much screen time they respectively have.  I do remember that we cut to Vader's activities a lot.



Vader is most prominent in Episode V if memory serves. I haven't watched the OT in quite a while, to be honest. I'm waiting for the next iteration of Harmy's Despecialized Edition to watch it again. I can't stomach the special editions any more.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 12, 2019)

Wait, what?
They originally released "Empire Strikes Back" as episode 5? I can't imagine how confusing that would've been back then. But either way, Lucas couldn't have been planning that far ahead as Vader was not supposed to be that important in the original movie... right? Does this also mean that Greedo really did shoot first?


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## dr_shadow (Dec 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Wait, what?
> They originally released "Empire Strikes Back" as episode 5? I can't imagine how confusing that would've been back then. But either way, Lucas couldn't have been planning that far ahead as Vader was not supposed to be that important in the original movie... right? Does this also mean that Greedo really did shoot first?



In the 1977 release, the original movie was of course titled "Star Wars" with no subtitle or number.

But Wiki suggests that the 1980 film was really titled "Star Wars Episode V: the Empire Strikes Back" from the get-go, and that in the following 1981 re-release of the predecessor it was retitled "Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope" for consistency.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 12, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> In the 1977 release, the original movie was of course titled "Star Wars" with no subtitle or number.
> 
> But Wiki suggests that the 1980 film was really titled "Star Wars Episode V: the Empire Strikes Back" from the get-go, and that in the following 1981 re-release of the predecessor it was retitled "Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope" for consistency.



... but it is wikipedia. Are there any legit sources?


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## Pilaf (Dec 12, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> ... but it is wikipedia. Are there any legit sources?



I know these ancient, venerable beings who were actually alive back then who confirmed it for me.

edit: Also it's not 2004, you know. The whole "need a better source than Wikipedia" hasn't been a thing for like a full decade or more now. If it makes it onto Wikipedia it's at the very least sourced.


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## Pilaf (Dec 12, 2019)

So the new clip from the movie is pretty wizard if you ask me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Dec 12, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I know these ancient, venerable beings who were actually alive back then who confirmed it for me.
> 
> edit: Also it's not 2004, you know. The whole "need a better source than Wikipedia" hasn't been a thing for like a full decade or more now. If it makes it onto Wikipedia it's at the very least sourced.



That's just so bizarre that even if evidence points towards it being true, I struggle to believe it. Lucas had originally planned on making further sequels following "Return of the Jedi", so when would he even have the chance to make the prequels? He seemed to give up until the mid 90's. It's just... so stupid... HOW DOES TRUTH MAKE NO SENSE LIKE THIS!? EXPLAIN IT TO ME PILAF! EXPLAIN TO ME THIS MADNESS!

And I don't keep up with what's trendy on the internet.  Is the Numa Numa guy still popular?


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Dec 12, 2019)

Looking back Kylo Ren should probably have been the main villain of Episode IX. Now don't _laugh_! Let me explain.

The original EU had a lot more original ideas than the Disneyverse but that's not the only problem the Disney movies suffer from. They also toss away the few interesting ideas it does have and Kylo is a pretty good example of that. The big problem of the new trilogy is that its just a rehash of the original trilogy with rebels vs stormtroopers, defeated Jedi's rising to defeat the ruling dark users. Kylo Ren was a break from that. _''Let the past die, kill it if you have to''_ isn't a bad idea. Both version of Star Wars have the galaxy forever trapped in the war between the Jedi and the Sith. ''Darkness rises and light rises to meet it'' Snoke says in the new trilogy and in the old EU the Sith keep reviving over, and over and over again to fight the Jedi in large galactic wars. Kylo Ren provides the opportunity for a villain motivated to finally put an end to all that nonsense and break the status quo by whatever means necessary. He could have been a Disnyfied Darth Traya.

The idea of Kylo as an ineffective emo teenager could have haven helped rather than hinder him. The main villain rising from a dweeb venting his rage by beating up his computer screen into an intimidating and visionary dark lord could be a sign of very strong growth.


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## U mad bro (Dec 12, 2019)

So JJ Abraham’s fucked up and let it slip he thinks last Jedi trash


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 12, 2019)

No secret. It's been revealed months ago that Johnson and him weren't on the same page. 

It's so weird tho..it's like they're making shit up as the go.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~VK~ (Dec 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> No secret. It's been revealed months ago that Johnson and him weren't on the same page.
> 
> It's so weird tho..it's like they're making shit up as the go.


They ARE making shit up as they go. Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, flexibility can be good, if it wasn't for the fact that jj Abrams vision and Rian johnsons vision for the franchise very clearly clashed and Rian Johnson blatantly tried to throw everything Abrams set up in the dumpster for the sole sake of "subversion".

Reactions: Like 2


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## MartialHorror (Dec 12, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> No secret. It's been revealed months ago that Johnson and him weren't on the same page.
> 
> It's so weird tho..it's like they're making shit up as the go.



I'm sure that happened for Episode 9. I remember hearing that Abrams had a treatment for a trilogy and there might've even been a script for episode 8, but allegedly Rian Johnson threw it out for what would become "The Last Jedi". He probably allowed it, as I believe he was still a producer and it wasn't like he was going to do episode 9 at the time. Colin Trevorrow either left or was fired. Some reports say he left because he didn't like what Rian Johnson was doing. Others say he was fired because "The Book of Henry" was a critical and commercial disaster.

I remember reading this leaked treatment of Episode 8, which ended up being false, but maybe it was the original plan for "The Last Jedi"? It does follow some of the same beats (the characters splitting up, with Finn encountering a character who's vaguely similar to Rose). But it also had the worst twist I've ever heard, where Rey accuses Luke of being her Father. He responds with -- and I shit you not -- "No, you are my Father". Apparently she's Anakin reincarnated or some shit. 

It's probably bullshit... and it sounds like bullshit... but please keep it to yourself if the Episode 9 leaks resemble this at all. I don't know if my laughter will overcome my theory if it turned out that this episode 8 treatment was real and J.J Abrams decided to recycle some of its ideas.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 12, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> So JJ Abraham’s fucked up and let it slip he thinks last Jedi trash


John boyega is a real one. He's basically always let it known he thinks they did his character dirty.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 12, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> The idea of Kylo as an ineffective emo teenager could have haven helped rather than hinder him. The main villain rising from a dweeb venting his rage by beating up his computer screen into an intimidating and visionary dark lord could be a sign of very strong growth.



We already had that with Anakin in the prequel trilogy, so why repeat that (which most fans consider to be a major mistake)?


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## Suigetsu (Dec 12, 2019)

Abcdjdj1234 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> and people thought Sasusaku was bad


They def are on the same boat of cringe.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 12, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> So the new clip from the movie is pretty wizard if you ask me.


Give me a whole trilogy about the sith NOWWWWW


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## U mad bro (Dec 13, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> John boyega is a real one. He's basically always let it known he thinks they did his character dirty.


Basically Boyega was like you had me running around with this unattractive Asian for no reason. You can tell quite a few people had to hold their tongues about the film. 

Mark Hamill was the first one who had to backtrack. He really voiced what fans wanted to say. They made him backtrack though lol


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## MShadows (Dec 13, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Basically Boyega was like you had me running around with this unattractive Asian for no reason. You can tell quite a few people had to hold their tongues about the film.
> 
> Mark Hamill was the first one who had to backtrack. He really voiced what fans wanted to say. They made him backtrack though lol


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 13, 2019)

Someone should really add some "war veteran" flashback style clips from tlj to it.


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## Suigetsu (Dec 13, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Someone should really add some "war veteran" flashback style clips from tlj to it.


How could they do this to him... I still cant believe it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> So I saw The Phantom Menace (1999).
> 
> To my surprise, I didn't find it godawful. There are some *amazing visuals* in this movie, considering it came out twenty years ago. There's landscapes and creatures here that at the time would have only been seen in video games, not on the big screen with a feature budget. Lucas' main mission is clearly to create a breathtaking space-fantasy world, and in this regard I think he succeeds.
> 
> ...



Did you know the end celebration theme of the movie is actually a hidden variation of Palpatine's emperor theme from return of the jedi?
Nice little easter egg about who truly won in that movie.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 13, 2019)

Watching Attack of the Clones (2002) now.

The CGI in this movie has not aged well. Which is strange, because I just said yesterday that I like the fantasy landscapes in Phantom, and you'd think effects should improve from one movie to the next. But here Coruscant just looks like a discount video game. At least it's mostly night, or it would have looked worse, because one of the giveaways that a thing is CGI and not real is that the light doesn't reflect off it in the way we're used to.

Anakin is coming on *really strong* from the second he meets Padme, and I'm surprised she hasn't pepper-sprayed him by now. I also don't get why after ten years as a Jedi he still embarrasses his superiors (Obi-Wan and Padme, so far) by arguing with them in public. Like, he questions Padme in front of *the Queen of Naboo* (who btw. is Indian for some reason?). What kind of tact is that? The only person he seems consistently respectful towards is Palpatine, and I wonder how the Jedi don't think that's even remotely suspicious?

Side-note: Anakin has ice-cold confidence in his lightsaber skills, because he slices through the two centipedes crawling on Padme's *arm and neck* without hesitation. He doesn't even stop to look properly; he just jumps on the bed and swings away. If his aim had been off by one inch he'd have decapitated her.

Edit 1:

The asteroid field chase was pretty cool. Overall I like Obi-Wan's detective story.

Anakin & Padme's love story still isn't believable, though. She kisses him almost immediately after they get to the "summer house" or wherever, even though he's done nothing but low-key sexually harass her for the whole trip there. Nothing has happened that would explain why she's suddenly attracted to him rather than repulsed.

I'll update this post with more observations as I progress through the movie...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Dec 13, 2019)

He was hyperventilating the more rain Johnson spoke


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## Jake CENA (Dec 13, 2019)

all my reacts for this 

it's basically the exact definition for the entire series after doing this stupid new ass trilogy lmao


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## Pilaf (Dec 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Watching Attack of the Clones (2002) now.
> 
> The CGI in this movie has not aged well. Which is strange, because I just said yesterday that I like the fantasy landscapes in Phantom, and you'd think effects should improve from one movie to the next. But here Coruscant just looks like a discount video game. At least it's mostly night, or it would have looked worse, because one of the giveaways that a thing is CGI and not real is that the light doesn't reflect off it in the way we're used to.
> 
> ...




No joke, the Geonosis sequence was my favorite bit of the prequels, front to back. Everything from the time Obi-Wan lands on the planet through to near the end of the film. The gladiatorial arena, the dialogue with Dooku, the Jedi showing up, the war against the battle droids. All of it is pure Space Fantasy at its best. 

Dooku was the perfect villain in this. He's like the exact opposite of Darth Maul and shows us another side of what a Sith Lord can be. Jango was a great henchman for him and the Clone Wars thing was so badass when the big reveal happened, because astute viewers will remember the references in the OT.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 13, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> No joke, the Geonosis sequence was my favorite bit of the prequels, front to back. Everything from the time Obi-Wan lands on the planet through to near the end of the film. The gladiatorial arena, the dialogue with Dooku, the Jedi showing up, the war against the battle droids. All of it is pure Space Fantasy at its best.
> 
> Dooku was the perfect villain in this. He's like the exact opposite of Darth Maul and shows us another side of what a Sith Lord can be. Jango was a great henchman for him and the Clone Wars thing was so badass when the big reveal happened, because astute viewers will remember the references in the OT.


I remember as a kid seeing the Clones fight on the side of the Jedi and being both hyped and having no clue why because they resembled the stormtroopers who were evil until I grew up and learned the differences and why.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 13, 2019)

Nice parallelism that both the "Republic" and the Separatists are building their respective armies at the same time, but both are largely clueless about the other. Only Palpatine knows what's up.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 13, 2019)

WTF Anakin up and stole C-3PO from the Lars family. 

The droid just happened to accidentally be on the ship with them when they got the distress call from Obi-Wan, and then they immediately take off without asking if maybe he'd like to get off first.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 13, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> No joke, the Geonosis sequence was my favorite bit of the prequels, front to back. Everything from the time Obi-Wan lands on the planet through to near the end of the film. The gladiatorial arena, the dialogue with Dooku, the Jedi showing up, the war against the battle droids. All of it is pure Space Fantasy at its best.
> 
> Dooku was the perfect villain in this. He's like the exact opposite of Darth Maul and shows us another side of what a Sith Lord can be. Jango was a great henchman for him and the Clone Wars thing was so badass when the big reveal happened, because astute viewers will remember the references in the OT.



I liked Dooku, but I didn't like what they did with him in ROTS. Although I didn't really like him just being another Palpatine pawn either.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 13, 2019)

Clones didn't work particularly well as the second film in the series, in my opinion, because it relies too heavily on callbacks to the Original Trilogy that we haven't seen yet. For example, there's no emotional weight to Yoda whipping out a lightsaber or Dooku using Force lighting if you haven't seen Empire and Jedi.

And again, the main romance doesn't feel natural, so if you don't know that this is happening because they need to become the parents of the leads in the next trilogy, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I liked the Tatooine stuff, though. Surprisingly, in both movies so far, Anakin's scenes with his mother have been the only ones that got any kind of emotional response out of me.

But biggest flaw is (as everybody and their uncle has pointed out) that adult Anakin isn't a particularly likeable character to begin with, so there's no surprise or shock to him eventually turning to the Dark Side. As Red Letter Media put it, "he was a bad apple from the start". If the arc of this trilogy is supposed to be a good man's fall to darkness, you need to establish that he was ever good to begin with. See also: Citizen Kane.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Dec 13, 2019)

Yeah, I mean, I'd have had much more sympathy for Anakin in Episode III if he didn't commit genocide in Episode II. 

I also recall seeing this as a 17 year old when it came out and even being young, dumb and full of cum recognized that Padme made a very questionable decision in not only forgiving Anakin for wiping out an entire culture, but fucking marrying him and letting him impregnate her later. This lady is a senator and used to be Queen of an entire planet, and she falls for this total knob?


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## dr_shadow (Dec 13, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Yeah, I mean, I'd have had much more sympathy for Anakin in Episode III if he didn't commit genocide in Episode II.
> 
> I also recall seeing this as a 17 year old when it came out and even being young, dumb and full of cum recognized that Padme made a very questionable decision in not only forgiving Anakin for wiping out an entire culture, but fucking marrying him and letting him impregnate her later. This lady is a senator and used to be Queen of an entire planet, and she falls for this total knob?



I think Anakin only killed the Tuskens in that particular camp, that had maybe 50 people in it max. There are obviously more of them elsewhere on the planet since we see them again in A New Hope and The Mandalorian. 

But your point is well taken, still.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 13, 2019)

I think the general plot structure of Clones has a lot of good ideas in it if you just imagine it as bullet points written on Lucas' napkin.

* There is an assassination attempt on Padme. Obi-Wan and Anakin are assigned to protect her, which reunites them after ten years.

* The trio split up. When left alone , Anakin and Padme gradually fall in love.

* Meanwhile, Obi-Wan discovers a conspiracy where the Sith are apparently arming both the Republic and Separatists for war. The movie ends with the start of the famous Clone Wars.

Those are all great beats that could have become a great script and then a great movie if they were fleshed out by a better character writer than Lucas. The Obi-Wan stuff works because it's mostly action and external intrigue, but the Anakin-Padme stuff is supposed to be based on the inner lives of the characters, which isn't made believable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Dec 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I think Anakin only killed the Tuskens in that particular camp, that had maybe 50 people in it max. There are obviously more of them elsewhere on the planet since we see them again in A New Hope and The Mandalorian.
> 
> But your point is well taken, still.




I'm aware he didn't kill every single Tusken Raider, but considering how spread out they are and how there are likely cultural things unique to each camp/enclave, he likely wiped out an entire culture over a single night here. And we're supposed to sympathize with him after this point, I guess. I can't watch ROTS or the Clone Wars without seeing him in this light.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 13, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I think the general plot structure of Clones has a lot of good ideas in it if you just imagine it as bullet points written on Lucas' napkin.
> 
> * There is an assassination attempt on Padme. Obi-Wan and Anakin are assigned to protect her, which reunites them after ten years.
> 
> ...



Lucas just can't write romantic dialogue. So it all comes off as forced.
The original trilogy was better, because the cast would improvise and fight Lucas to make changes to the script.
Like Hans iconic "I know" to Lea's confession only exists, because Ford felt the dialogue was dumb and out of character, so he made his own spin on it.

No one dared to say anything too negative to Lucas during the prequels, so we unfortunately had pure Lucas.   
The only way that those stilted scenes could be made to work is if Anakin was written to subconsciously use jedi mind tricks on her or something to effect her judgment.

Lucas works best as the idea guy.
But he needs someone to filter and condense his thoughts for them to truly shine.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Dec 13, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I'm aware he didn't kill every single Tusken Raider, but considering how spread out they are and how there are likely cultural things unique to each camp/enclave, he likely wiped out an entire culture over a single night here. And we're supposed to sympathize with him after this point, I guess. I can't watch ROTS or the Clone Wars without seeing him in this light.



To be fair, that's kind of the point. He's not meant to be sympathetic. He's meant to be tragic. 



ClandestineSchemer said:


> Lucas just can't write romantic dialogue. So it all comes off as forced.
> The only why that stilted scenes could be made to work is if Anakin was written to subconsciously use jedi mind tricks on her or something to effect her judgment.



That would be so much worse, lol. Vader is a villain, but he's still supposed to be cool in his own way and his redemption is rewarding... using mind tricks is like the force equivalent of date rape.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> That would be so much worse, lol. Vader is a villain, but he's still supposed to be cool in his own way and his redemption is rewarding... using mind tricks is like the force equivalent of date rape.



Yeah, that's why I meant it only as a way too explain why those scenes felt unnatural.
Not as an actual plot point, since it would change the tone too much.

Also I envisioned the use of his powers more of an unaware manifestation of his own suppressed feelings and lack of control over his "mighty" force powers. Not him actually intending to use his abilities on her.
Like how in the first movie he would use his precog and shit as a child without him knowing about it.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 13, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> To be fair, that's kind of the point. He's not meant to be sympathetic. He's meant to be tragic.



The problem with that is that tragedy has more power if there's a layer of sympathy to go along with it. A character's downfall means nothing if no one gives a shit. If say, Anakin had broken down at his mother's death and then a Tusken Raider had suddenly walked in to sound the alarm and attacked him, it would make Anakin's actions start off as self-defense before cutting away. Then we'd have the cut to Anakin returning to the homestead with the body, showing that he survived the encounter while maintaining the drama of the scene. After that, they could later reveal during the conversation with Padme that it spiraled out from there because he needed to satisfy his desire for vengeance, highlighting just how susceptible he's become to the Dark Side's temptations.

Just like that, we've built a moment of suspense, left the audience in the dark about whether the character will survive the encounter intact spiritually and physically, returned to tragedy, and then finally surprised everyone with the horror of exactly what happened.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 13, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> The problem with that is that tragedy has more power if there's a layer of sympathy to go along with it. A character's downfall means nothing if no one gives a shit. If say, Anakin had broken down at his mother's death and then a Tusken Raider had suddenly walked in to sound the alarm and attacked him, it would make Anakin's actions start off as self-defense before cutting away. Then we'd have the cut to Anakin returning to the homestead with the body, showing that he survived the encounter while maintaining the drama of the scene. After that, they could later reveal during the conversation with Padme that it spiraled out from there because he needed to satisfy his desire for vengeance, highlighting just how susceptible he's become to the Dark Side's temptations.
> 
> Just like that, we've built a moment of suspense, left the audience in the dark about whether the character will survive the encounter intact spiritually and physically, returned to tragedy, and then finally surprised everyone with the horror of exactly what happened.



You're not wrong, but that obviously didn't bother a lot of people. When anyone talks about the movie sucking or Anakin's presentation, it's just how much he whines and how creepy he comes across in his interactions with Padme. Even if the movie took your advice, it wouldn't have changed much, as he'd still be his whiny, creepy self.. If anything, him committing genocide was one of his better moments, as it's the first time we can take him seriously as a potential villain.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 14, 2019)

@mr_shadow are you saying that you never watched the prequel trilogy until now, or are you merely re-watching it for the first time in many years?

As for your actual post, I heavily agree that the relationship felt very one-sided and poorly-written; for Anakin, his first adventure with Padme was the most significant thing that ever happened to him, but for Padme, it was merely another adventure out of many, so I personally feel that the filmmakers should have hired a writer who could actually write romantic plot lines for that film.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 14, 2019)

DemonDragonJ said:


> @mr_shadow are you saying that you never watched the prequel trilogy until now, or are you merely re-watching it for the first time in many years?
> 
> As for your actual post, I heavily agree that the relationship felt very one-sided and poorly-written; for Anakin, his first adventure with Padme was the most significant thing that ever happened to him, but for Padme, it was merely another adventure out of many, so I personally feel that the filmmakers should have hired a writer who could actually write romantic plot lines for that film.



I've of course seen them before, but my previous Star Wars marathons were all in production order (IV > V > VI > I > II > III > VII > VIII), which means I was watching the prequels with advance knowledge of what's going to happen later.

This time I'm trying out what Lucas claims is his "intended" order (I > II > III > IV > V > VI > VII > VIII). For this experiment I'm trying to put myself in the mindset of someone who doesn't have advance knowledge of what's going to happen. 

E.g. how does Anakin's and Padme's romance come off to a viewer who doesn't know that they eventually have kids? Is Anakin's fall believable if you don't already know he becomes Vader? Can you still understand what the Jedi and Sith are without having heard Obi-Wan and Yoda's lectures from the OT?


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 14, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> E.g. how does Anakin's and Padme's romance come off to a viewer who doesn't know that they eventually have kids? Is Anakin's fall believable if you don't already know he becomes Vader? Can you still understand what the Jedi and Sith are without having heard Obi-Wan and Yoda's lectures from the OT?



I could spend hours discussing what I disliked about the prequels (although I still believe that they are better than the sequels), and what I would have done differently, but, on this one specific subject, I think that Anakin and Padme's romance was horribly forced and not at all believable; I would have had them be the same age when they met, to make it more believable. Also, given how much of a whiny brat Anakin was in the preuqles, there is no way one would expect him to be come the near-epitome of badass that is Darth Vader; instead, I would have had him already displaying traits of his future self at a young age, to make his fall to the dark side more believable. The word "Sith" is never mentioned in the original trilogy, despite the fact that it was in early drafts of the movies, and it was not until _The Phantom Menace_ that "darth" was established as a title, rather than a name.

Have you seen _The Clone Wars_ animated series? It is amazing, and the writers actually made Anakin a well-developed and likeable character as well as making his romance with Padme more believable and two-sided. Where were those writers when the prequels were being made?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Karma (Dec 14, 2019)

Please let Palpatine win


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## MShadows (Dec 14, 2019)

Karma said:


> Please let Palpatine win


He’d do us a favor by killing these awful characters.

I expect him to jump out of his floating chair and do a spin like in RoTS.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 14, 2019)

LONG LIVE THE SITH


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## MartialHorror (Dec 14, 2019)

MShadows said:


> He’d do us a favor by killing these awful characters.
> 
> I expect him to jump out of his floating chair and do a spin like in RoTS.



Nah, the good guys will win and then they'll do new special editions of the original trilogy, except they'll replace the OT characters with the NT characters, so Rey will be Luke, Kylo Ren will be Vader, Finn will be Han, Rose will be Leia, Poe will be Landa and Holdo will be... Yoda? .


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## MShadows (Dec 14, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Nah, the good guys will win and then they'll do new special editions of the original trilogy, except they'll replace the OT characters with the NT characters, so Rey will be Luke, Kylo Ren will be Vader, Finn will be Han, Rose will be Leia, Poe will be Landa and Holdo will be... Yoda? .


No


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## MartialHorror (Dec 14, 2019)

MShadows said:


> No



Yes... YES! You know it to be true!


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## MShadows (Dec 14, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Yes... YES! You know it to be true!


That’s one of the worst ideas I’ve ever heard, not even joking.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 14, 2019)

MShadows said:


> That’s one of the worst ideas I’ve ever heard, not even joking.



No one will ever complain about "Who shot first?" ever again!


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## Amol (Dec 15, 2019)

We should have had first reactions by now, right?


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## Karma (Dec 15, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> No one will ever complain about "Who shot first?" ever again!


Maclunkey


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## Pilaf (Dec 15, 2019)

MShadows said:


> He’d do us a favor by killing these awful characters.
> 
> I expect him to jump out of his floating chair and do a spin like in RoTS.




Isn't he like 100 years old now, though? People think he's hooked up to all those tubes because of ancient Sith sorcery. Maybe it's just his oxygen and he's on 40 pills a day.


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## MShadows (Dec 15, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Isn't he like 100 years old now, though? People think he's hooked up to all those tubes because of ancient Sith sorcery. Maybe it's just his oxygen and he's on 40 pills a day.


Then the chair will do the spinning for him.


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## Pilaf (Dec 15, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Then the chair will do the spinning for him.



"Behold the powah… OF THE DAHK SIDE...." 

*spins around in circles*

Anakin's Force Ghost: "That's a good trick."


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## MShadows (Dec 15, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> "Behold the powah… OF THE DAHK SIDE...."
> 
> *spins around in circles*
> 
> Anakin's Force Ghost: "That's a good trick."


*Obi-Wan's Force Ghost, watching nearby* 

"Another happy landing."


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## Pilaf (Dec 15, 2019)

MShadows said:


> *Obi-Wan's Force Ghost, watching nearby*
> 
> "Another happy landing."





*Spoiler*: __ 



*Ben Solo dies after kissing Rey* Obi Wan: "We're still flying half a ship."


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## Magnum Miracles (Dec 15, 2019)

> According to a new rumor, a secret _*Star Wars*_ show centered on the comic character of Doctor Aphra has not only been given the greenlight, but it’s apparently already filming. The production is supposedly a collaboration between Lucasfilm and Marvel, and it will be debuting on Disney+ potentially within the next year.



I hope this is true, since Aphra is one of my favorite characters of the franchise. I am about 3-4 volumes behind her solo series, so I had no idea she was gay, which could be a reason why the Mouse wants a TV show about her.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Dec 15, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Dooku was the perfect villain in this. He's like the exact opposite of Darth Maul and shows us another side of what a Sith Lord can be. Jango was a great henchman for him and the Clone Wars thing was so badass when the big reveal happened, because astute viewers will remember the references in the OT.



I loved Dooku. Its hard to do otherwise since he's pretty much a Sith version of Chrisopher Lee. As far as Sith's go he also seems pretty interesting in that he isn't just crazy for power but actually seeks power to pursue  relatable and fairly benign goals. Its likely no coincidence he's the only Sith who looks even remotely human.

So I always found it disappointing Dooku was the Sith that clearly got the short end of the stick. He's the main villain of the worst Star Wars movie by far and he doesn't even have a lot of screentime there. Then in the next film which is actually good he gets dismissed as a mere afterthought. The clone wars is an attempt to do more with the character but even there he's got to compete with Maul who only got brought back for the fanservice.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 15, 2019)

Magnum Miracles said:


> I hope this is true, since Aphra is one of my favorite characters of the franchise. I am about 3-4 volumes behind her solo series, so I had no idea she was gay, which could be a reason why the Mouse wants a TV show about her.


Absolutely godawful


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## dr_shadow (Dec 15, 2019)

Watching Revenge of the Sith (2005) now, a day late because something came up yesterday.

Man, this is much better than Clones, so far. Aside from the spectacle of seeing the tail-end of the Clone Wars, Anakin's character is much better written. There's a logical progression to his decisions, and his choices seem rational. For example, upon having the first nightmare about Padme, his first choice is to go see Yoda like any normal person would.

It's only after Yoda unhelpfully tells him "well, people die " that he starts looking into other options.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2019)

If the plot leaks are true --

I'd be laughing the heck out of the day.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Dec 15, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Watching Revenge of the Sith (2005) now, a day late because something came up yesterday.
> 
> Man, this is much better than Clones, so far. Aside from the spectacle of seeing the tail-end of the Clone Wars, Anakin's character is much better written. There's a logical progression to his decisions, and his choices seem rational. For example, upon having the first nightmare about Padme, his first choice is to go see Yoda like any normal person would.
> 
> It's only after Yoda unhelpfully tells him "well, people die " that he starts looking into other options.



Pretty much the best Star wars film of em all.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 15, 2019)

His first reaction on learning that Palpatine is a Sith Lord is also to go tell the Jedi Council, *just like a normal fucking person would*.

Thank you, writers!

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 15, 2019)

Plot-induced stupidity:

Why don't Yoda and Obi-Wan *both* go to kill Palpatine, and then *both* go after Anakin afterwards? Why'd they have to split up?


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## Pilaf (Dec 15, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Plot-induced stupidity:
> 
> Why don't Yoda and Obi-Wan *both* go to kill Palpatine, and then *both* go after Anakin afterwards? Why'd they have to split up?




I'm guessing they were considering the possibility of being caught/pursued. It's not just Vader and Sidious they have to worry about but the vast resources of the fledgling Empire. When Jedi clump together they're easier to take out. Despite the common belief that nobody can kill a Jedi, the movies show us it's all too easy.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 15, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Plot-induced stupidity:
> 
> Why don't Yoda and Obi-Wan *both* go to kill Palpatine, and then *both* go after Anakin afterwards? Why'd they have to split up?


Because we saw what happened when 3 Jedi comparable to Obi-Wan went to help fight Sidious with Windu. Same situation except even worse if Kenobi tried to help Yoda.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 15, 2019)

Sith was definitely the best of the prequels. Even if sometimes relies on call-backs that seem strange if you don't know what they're referring to. Like how Chewbacca is randomly fighting alongside Yoda, or the emphasis on Padme naming her kids, or the lingering shots of Vader taking his first respirator-breath. Not to mention the Death Star construction at the end.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 15, 2019)

Also WTF the credits say they shot on location in Guilin, China. I've been there!

Assuming it's for Kashyyyk.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 15, 2019)

Something I missed is that we never actually see any of Palpatine'a political rallies. 

We're told that he's immensely popular with the Senate (and so presumably the people), but his election campaigns happen completely off-screen, so we don't really get what makes him more charismatic than Bail Organa.

They could have had a scene of him giving some Hitler-style speech to set up what the atmosphere in the Republic is like at this time.


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## Magnum Miracles (Dec 15, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Absolutely godawful


There's always the chance it'll be a fuck up, but who knows, maybe it will turn out good.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 15, 2019)

Magnum Miracles said:


> There's always the chance it'll be a fuck up, but who knows, maybe it will turn out good.


With how her comic series has turned out it is assured to be terrible.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 15, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Something I missed is that we never actually see any of Palpatine'a political rallies.
> 
> We're told that he's immensely popular with the Senate (and so presumably the people), but his election campaigns happen completely off-screen, so we don't really get what makes him more charismatic than Bail Organa.
> 
> They could have had a scene of him giving some Hitler-style speech to set up what the atmosphere in the Republic is like at this time.



Probably too on the nose... and that says something, considering Star Wars aint subtle. I think that's what they were going for with Hux's Hitler-esque speech in TFA, but it just didn't work because it's too obvious.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 15, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> They could have had a scene of him giving some Hitler-style speech to set up what the atmosphere in the Republic is like at this time.



There _was_ such a scene; do you recall the scene in which Padme said "so this is how liberty dies: to thunderous applause?"

Also, I feel that Yoda's advice to Anakin was perfectly rational, and that it was evidence of how immature and selfish Anakin was that he could not accept the situation.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 15, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Something I missed is that we never actually see any of Palpatine'a political rallies.
> 
> We're told that he's immensely popular with the Senate (and so presumably the people), but his election campaigns happen completely off-screen, so we don't really get what makes him more charismatic than Bail Organa.
> 
> They could have had a scene of him giving some Hitler-style speech to set up what the atmosphere in the Republic is like at this time.



There were some scenes, but not much.
Probably a consequence of Lucas getting heavily criticized for the long political portions of the Phantom menace.


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## MShadows (Dec 16, 2019)

I'll be mad if this doesn't start playing the moment Palpatine appears on screen

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 16, 2019)

Who will be the first on NF to see this ?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 16, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> There were some scenes, but not much.
> Probably a consequence of Lucas getting heavily criticized for the long political portions of the Phantom menace.



Just out of curiosity, what was the political agenda of TPM? I know the later prequels dealt with the War in Iraq, but TPM came out long before that. I don't remember. 



Shiba D. Inu said:


> Who will be the first on NF to see this ?



I'll see it on friday.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 16, 2019)

As will I

Reactions: Like 1


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## blakstealth (Dec 16, 2019)

pretty nice ship!


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## Mider T (Dec 16, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Who will be the first on NF to see this ?


I'll probably see it on Thursday.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 16, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, what was the political agenda of TPM? I know the later prequels dealt with the War in Iraq, but TPM came out long before that. I don't remember.



We were talking about in movie politics, not real life parallels.

As for real life ones, I think it was something about the free trade and the global economic order.

It's basically fear, that funnily enough what Trump is doing might occur.
Lucas the fortuneteller.


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## Mob (Dec 16, 2019)

I wouldn't spend a cent on this movie even if everyone on the forum rated it as a 10/10 masterpiece, you can't fool me ever again Disney

Reactions: Like 2


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## dr_shadow (Dec 16, 2019)

Watching A New Hope (1977) now.

How doesn't Vader sense that Leia is his daughter?  It sounds from the dialogue like they've met before (on the sidelines of the Senate, presumably), but he's never suspected anything?

Also, why doesn't Uncle Owen recognize C-3PO? I realize that all protocol droids look the same, but this one still has the same name as back when the Lars family owned him for like ten years.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 16, 2019)

I'll admit Episode IV does a good job of setting up what Anakin's new life as an imperial enforcer is like. He seems to spend all his days choking and torturing people.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Dec 16, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Who will be the first on NF to see this ?



Seeing this Thursday, 12 AM.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Pilaf (Dec 16, 2019)




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## dr_shadow (Dec 16, 2019)

Lol, Obi-Wan is in hiding for like 20 years, then Anakin casually kills him within like one day of him leaving Tatooine. 

"You should not have come back" indeed.


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## Pilaf (Dec 16, 2019)

He didn't die. He became one with the Force. More powerful than Darth could possibly imagine.


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## Mider T (Dec 16, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I'll admit Episode IV does a good job of setting up what Anakin's new life as an imperial enforcer is like. He seems to spend all his days choking and torturing people.


I remember reading that Vader's role in the Empire seems slightly different in Episode IV than in Episode V.


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## Mider T (Dec 16, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> He didn't die. He became one with the Force. More powerful than Darth could possibly imagine.


@Darth how powerful did you imagine?


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## Xebec (Dec 16, 2019)

leaked pics are out


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## Pilaf (Dec 16, 2019)

Mider T said:


> I remember reading that Vader's role in the Empire seems slightly different in Episode IV than in Episode V.




Here's the reason why - Lucas' conception of the structure of the Empire changed totally between Star Wars coming out and Empire being filmed. Palpatine was supposed to be a figurehead being controlled by the commerce guilds and the military governors. GL scrapped the idea and made him a Sith Lord later, but when A New Hope was filmed the figurehead/puppet Emperor thing was still his official conception. So, in ANH, Vader was conceptualized as one of several Warlords vying for a bigger slice of that Imperial Pie, allied with Tarkin for convenience and such. That obviously changed to being Palpatine's attack dog later on.


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## Xebec (Dec 16, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Here's the reason why - Lucas' conception of the structure of the Empire changed totally between Star Wars coming out and Empire being filmed. Palpatine was supposed to be a figurehead being controlled by the commerce guilds and the military governors. GL scrapped the idea and made him a Sith Lord later, but when A New Hope was filmed the figurehead/puppet Emperor thing was still his official conception. So, in ANH, Vader was conceptualized as one of several Warlords vying for a bigger slice of that Imperial Pie, allied with Tarkin for convenience and such. That obviously changed to being Palpatine's attack dog later on.


pretty sure that was only in the novelization of ANH

And yeah based on the leaks this movie fucking sucks and is a shitshow


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## Skaddix (Dec 16, 2019)

Star Wars Was A Mistake... 

Let the Saga End and the 2nd Great Star Wars Fandom War Be Unleashed. 
SWFWII.

Granted all the leaks are true so...


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Dec 16, 2019)




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## MShadows (Dec 16, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> leaked pics are out


I’m curious


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## Xebec (Dec 16, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I’m curious


i want to post them but i'm paranoid the mouse will come after me lol


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## MShadows (Dec 16, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> i want to post them but i'm paranoid the mouse will come after me lol


Nah, just spoiler tag them.


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## Xebec (Dec 16, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Nah, just spoiler tag them.



*Spoiler*: __


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 17, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> *Spoiler*: __


They were all fucking true


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## MShadows (Dec 17, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> *Spoiler*: __





NostalgiaFan said:


> They were all fucking true



*Spoiler*: __ 





It was all true... it means the movie is truly shit. 

Good riddance!


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## dr_shadow (Dec 17, 2019)

So was Vader the only survivor of the first Death Star? Looked like he was the only Imperial outside the station when it blew.

I suppose he really is The Chosen One. He would have died if that other TIE Fighter hadn't accidentally bumped into him. "Will of the Force"?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

Sheev


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## dr_shadow (Dec 17, 2019)

Anybody posting or implying un-tagged spoilers gets a lightsaber up their dark side.


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## Xebec (Dec 17, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Sheev



*Spoiler*: __ 



he goes out like a bitch


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## Skaddix (Dec 17, 2019)

Does that count as a spoiler?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> he goes out like a bitch



*Spoiler*: __ 



he kinda did in RotJ too


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## Djomla (Dec 17, 2019)

I was thinking of going tomorrow.. Seeing them pictures. No, thank you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 17, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Does that count as a spoiler?



IMO:

1. Confirming which leaks are true should count as a spoiler.

2. Talking about *any* leaks after it's been confirmed that a substantial portion of them are true counts as spoilers.

But it's up to @Sennin of Hardwork to decide.


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## Skaddix (Dec 17, 2019)

I just meant more in terms about if anyone actually didn't think that is how he go out...


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Dec 17, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> IMO:
> 
> 1. Confirming which leaks are true should count as a spoiler.
> 
> ...



Both sounds good to me. Any kind of talk or mention of spoilers and/or leaks will have to be spoiler tagged at least after Christmas or till next Friday.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Dec 17, 2019)




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## MShadows (Dec 17, 2019)




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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)




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## MShadows (Dec 17, 2019)

Inb4 the 3/10 reviews from true fans and not brainwashed “critics” paid by the mouse.


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## TasteTheDifference (Dec 17, 2019)

Lol according to early previews it sucks, guess I’ll need an extra beer when watching it tomorrow


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## MShadows (Dec 17, 2019)

TasteTheDifference said:


> Lol according to early previews it sucks, guess I’ll need an extra beer when watching it tomorrow


Are you perhaps a masochist?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

@~Gesy~ @mr_shadow full review on NF as soon as you out of the cinema building


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## Zeta42 (Dec 17, 2019)

I've read the leaks. If they are true (and I'm sure they are), there's not much I want to see. I'll just watch those bits on YouTube a few months later.
When are people going to learn not to give big corporations like Disney money?


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## MShadows (Dec 17, 2019)

Zeta42 said:


> I've read the leaks. If they are true (and I'm sure they are), there's not much I want to see. I'll just watch those bits on YouTube a few months later.
> When are people going to learn not to give big corporations like Disney money?



*Spoiler*: __ 




They are... This movie is gonna be awful. 

Remember how people were happy to see Abrams back? How Abrams was gonna salvage the wreckage from Rian Johnson? He came in and dealt the finishing blow.


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## Xebec (Dec 17, 2019)




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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

Zeta42 said:


> When are people going to learn not to give big corporations like Disney money?


I cant wait to pre-order my_ Black Widow_ ticket !


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## MShadows (Dec 17, 2019)

Disney is aware that most people nowadays are just sheep that will eat up any kind of shit as long as it's wrapped up nicely. 

How sad that such a legendary franchise has been reduced to this pathetic state.


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## MShadows (Dec 17, 2019)

You can rate my posts old or whatever for as long as you want...


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

_Rise of Skywalker_ soon on Disney+


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## Xebec (Dec 17, 2019)




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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 






> Some more confirmation that, yes, Kylo dies after his redemption. Kylo revives Rey. They smile at each other, she says "Ben" and they kiss.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 17, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> *Spoiler*: __


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## Mob (Dec 17, 2019)




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## Bergelmir (Dec 17, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


>



*Spoiler*: __ 



So my takeaway is... the ST was just about Ben getting to kiss a girl. Like, thats really the only through line narratively. Getting Rey and Ben to make out before the trilogy is over.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

daddy


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## MShadows (Dec 17, 2019)

Ian McDiarmid's talent is wasted on this C-list movie.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 17, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



So the point was Kylo Ren kissing a girl. Ok


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 17, 2019)

Guess it's time to bounce out this thread until I see it.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Guess it's time to bounce out this thread until I see it.


You leave us but the learner. But when you return Friday you will be the master

Reactions: Like 1


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## Karma (Dec 17, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> he goes out like a bitch


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## Karma (Dec 17, 2019)

At least JJ did 1 thing right 


*Spoiler*: __ 



He yeeted Rian's subversions out of the franchise


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

quick question - are episodes 1-8 all on Disney+ already or not ? 
@Mider T @mr_shadow @Sennin of Hardwork


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)




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## JFF (Dec 17, 2019)

So we see how this goes. It can only go better after TLJ. Yet, I do not feel the hype. I don't think it will be that successful.  Too many angry fans 

We should wait with confirmed leaks after the embargo.


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## Mider T (Dec 17, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> quick question - are episodes 1-8 all on Disney+ already or not ?
> @Mider T @mr_shadow @Sennin of Hardwork


I think the last 2 are still on Netflix.


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## neonion (Dec 17, 2019)

I wasn’t hyped at all for this movie, so I managed to easily avoid the leaks and trailers till now but I was curious and judging by what I’ve read, yikes. The movie seems to be a terrible mess.

What’s the point of having so many storylines and characters?
This story seems to be above all a patchwork, made of fanservice and convoluted storyline, trying to cater to everyone. 

People wanted an actual consistent story with good characters, not two hours of explosion and useless quests.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2019)

I wonder which parts of _Rise _were specifically written to fix up Rian Johnson's maverick decisions, and which parts were originally plotted since TFA.

Rian Johnson completely doing away the originally-planned TFA story and writing his own story, irrevocably altered everything.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2019)

*Also --

Taking a moment to give a shout out to Carrie Fisher. R.I.P.*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Dec 17, 2019)

Ima eat all the sith shit up


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## Xebec (Dec 17, 2019)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I wonder which parts of _Rise _were specifically written to fix up Rian Johnson's maverick decisions, and which parts were originally plotted since TFA.
> 
> Rian Johnson completely doing away the originally-planned TFA story and writing his own story, irrevocably altered everything.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Snoke being a clone is almost a given and probably Palpatine coming, i don't believe them for a second when they say him coming back was always planned

*edit* Trevorrow confirmed it


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## Pilaf (Dec 17, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> daddy




*Spoiler*: __ 



I know they don't really confirm if he's a clone or not in the movie, but he looks like a clone with accelerated aging. He doesn't have the melted/deformed look he had after the Windu fight on through the end of ROTJ. It looks like he cloned himself and aged normally but rapidly into a very old man and then fucking died again or something.


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## Mider T (Dec 17, 2019)

Let the butthurt commence.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

friendly reminder that Endgame still holds a mindblowingly unbeatable opening _weekend_ of* 1.2+ B* 

this could be more than RoS total gross


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## Xebec (Dec 17, 2019)

A Star Wars movie making lots money? NO FUCKING WAY


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## Karma (Dec 17, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> A Star Wars movie making lots money? NO FUCKING WAY


Solo


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 17, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> A Star Wars movie making lots money? NO FUCKING WAY


Some here said it wouldn't tho


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## MShadows (Dec 17, 2019)

Mbxx said:


> So we see how this goes. It can only go better after TLJ. Yet, I do not feel the hype. I don't think it will be that successful.  Too many angry fans
> 
> We should wait with confirmed leaks after the embargo.


"It can only go better after TLJ"

I take it you haven't read the leaks?

If you think this movie is gonna be any better than TLJ you're unfortunately setting yourself up for disappointment... 

Ignore the Disney drones that eat up anything the mouse throws their way.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)

better than TLJ for sure, even from the leaks


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## MShadows (Dec 17, 2019)

No real SW fan would believe this movie is better than TLJ, or that this whole trilogy is good in the first place.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 17, 2019)




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## Zef (Dec 17, 2019)

If the Force can bring back the dead then Anakin turned evil for no fucking reason.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 17, 2019)

Zef said:


> If the Force can bring back the dead then Anakin turned evil for no fucking reason.



I'd have liked to have seen what Plagueis' "bringing back the dead" actually looked like. Since it's a Dark Side ability there has to be some kind of drawback.

I'm imagining something akin to Full Metal Alchemist where they come back as zombies or monsters. Like that the Dark Side can reanimate people's bodies but not actually bring back their souls.

In the television MCU, too, we learned that when someone is brought back to life by the Hand they kind of leave a piece of their soul in the netherworld, so that they become more and more mentally unstable the more times you get resurrected.

Maybe this is explored in some Expanded Universe work?


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 17, 2019)

@mr_shadow, on the subject of the dark side, I still think that it is ridiculous that Anakin did not turn to the dark side after massacring a village of Tusken raiders and then killing Dooku in cold blood; it is almost as if George Lucas was not paying attention to his own story.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kuromaku (Dec 17, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I'd have liked to have seen what Plagueis' "bringing back the dead" actually looked like. Since it's a Dark Side ability there has to be some kind of drawback.
> 
> I'm imagining something akin to Full Metal Alchemist where they come back as zombies or monsters. Like that the Dark Side can reanimate people's bodies but not actually bring back their souls.
> 
> ...



Perhaps, based on the leaks


*Spoiler*: __ 



Where a noble act of self-sacrifice can bring a person back from the dead, the darker variant is to use someone else as the sacrifice.

It's basically a destructive life for a life means of resurrection or extending someone's lifespan.


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## Zef (Dec 18, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Apparently there are hints of Finn being Force Sensitive.


You're two movies too late Disney, trilogy is over.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 18, 2019)

Zef said:


> Apparently there are hints of Finn being Force Sensitive.
> 
> 
> You're two movies too late Disney, trilogy is over.



All leaks and hints, however vague, should be spoiler tagged at this point.


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## MrPopo (Dec 18, 2019)

Zef said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Didn't Finn hear the voices disappearing when the planet was destroyed in tfa 
[\SPOILER]


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)




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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

the mouse train really has no brakes, does it ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~VK~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Goddamn jeremy really didn't fuck with this movie


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## ~VK~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Shit even the critics are divided now with a 57% on RT


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

TLJ had 90%+ and it more harm than good

now the opposite will happen


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## ~VK~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Ok weiss


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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)




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## Pilaf (Dec 18, 2019)

So did any Skywalker actually rise?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

@Mider T 
> lowest rated SW movie
> what do we do, Banana man ?  what does the Mouse Manual say ?


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## MShadows (Dec 18, 2019)

The ratings are low because it's a shit movie. But go ahead and waste your money on 2 and a half hours of nothing.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

@~Gesy~ you're my only hope


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Big Star Wars fan, Jeremy Jahns who tend to be a lot more fair and lenient than some of the people in here considers this to be the worst film in the series.

Now I'm shook


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

abort, abort


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm still going in..I have to see for myself


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I'm still going in..I have to see for myself


you da real (storm)trooper


----------



## Kuromaku (Dec 18, 2019)

Wow, I honestly didn't see the less than stellar RT score coming (although RT has become less and less discerning in what it considers to be a proper movie critic nowadays).


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## MartialHorror (Dec 18, 2019)

Yikes. Assuming it doesn't drop or... rise... that's only a little better of a rating than "Phantom Menace".


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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)

Palpatine's death just leaked and YEEEEESH


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

spoiler tags


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## Karma (Dec 18, 2019)

Critics have decided the new trilogy is trash all of a sudden


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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> spoiler tags


It's only a spoiler if i post it and i don't want to it's so bad


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Karma said:


> Critics have decided the new trilogy is trash all of a sudden


Sounds like the mouse’s check didn’t went through


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm in. There's nobody in the movie theater. Wish me luck.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

if SW crashes - Mouse will have more money/time/resources to pour into their GOAT - MCU


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

A wizard did it : The movie.


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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)

Fuck it


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

Honestly? Disney and the new fans deserve this for trying to throw us out of our house, the one we built up over two generations.

Reap what you show deconstructivist troglodytes


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## MShadows (Dec 18, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> Fuck it


Holy fuck...


*Spoiler*: __ 




Is Abrams actually stupid? This was absolutely awful... 

"Muh gurl power" overpowering Palpatine and sending him to the grave after 10 pathetic minutes of screen time...

This is actually far worse than TLJ


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## MShadows (Dec 18, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 




Going by this dumb ass logic all Windu had to do was pick up one of the lightsabers lying on the floor after Palpatine killed his buddies. 2 lightsabers >>> Palpatine

Damn, I guess even Grevious could've killed easily no diffed Palpatine considering he had 4 arms


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Rey the strongest ever


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 









The true hero of the entire star wars universe


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 18, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I'm still going in..I have to see for myself


How about you don't.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> How about you don't.


It's my sworn duty


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> It's my sworn duty


the hero we need, but dont deserve


----------



## Zeta42 (Dec 18, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> Fuck it


"And I... am... Iron Woman."


----------



## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)




----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> How about you don't.



"I hate the force, I hate that it seems to have a will of its own, using us to achieve some sort of balance" 

She was right the sequel trilogy vindicates her.

And with that, these insufferable mooks have made SW darker than Warhammer 40,000


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Rey and Kylo fuck don't they?

His inner frustrations was all due to heavy testicles..

As a fellow teen in a grown man's body...I understand


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

Y'all just got evicted from the house you tried to break into and squat in and you're still trying to pretend like it's some victory 

You people killed star wars. You're to blame for this

That and Disneys criminal activities


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 18, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> All leaks and hints, however vague, should be spoiler tagged at this point.



*Spoiler*: __ 



The movie is going to suck ass.


----------



## ~VK~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> Fuck it


Yo this is some dumb shit


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 18, 2019)




----------



## Deana (Dec 18, 2019)

*Spoiler*: _Gansta Yoda_ 



Shitty movie, this sounds like.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Imagine paying a single dollar for this travesty


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Imagine paying a single dollar for this travesty



For this Disney betrayed Walts memory 

They murdered the man's legacy to appease to the tumblr demographic, committed widescale fraud and participated in a criminal conspiracy to push an agenda that ultimately even their sycophantic puppets couldn't stomach.

No one with any integrity can defend this anymore and it's safe to dismiss anyone who does as an ideologue now.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

cant wait for MCU to return 

the Mouse will ride again next year

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zef (Dec 18, 2019)

Mouse needs to go bankrupt.


They have too much of a hold on our entertainment, but keep pumping out these shitty souless movies.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> For this Disney betrayed Walts memory
> 
> They murdered the man's legacy to appease to the tumblr demographic, committed widescale fraud and participated in a criminal conspiracy to push an agenda that ultimately even their sycophantic puppets couldn't stomach.
> 
> No one with any integrity can defend this anymore and it's safe to dismiss anyone who does as an *ideologue* now.


We call them shills my good man.
Frankly I don’t see anyone with a functioning brain cell defending the mess this franchise is in now unless there’re that desperate for tumblr whale pussy.


Zef said:


> Mouse needs to go *bankrupt*.
> 
> 
> Thet have too much of a hold on our entertainment, but keep pumping out these shitty souless movies.


Good luck with that 

As long as there’s sheep following the Shepard the mouse ain’t going broke for a longtime


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

Zef said:


> Thet have too much of a hold on our entertainment


@DemonDragonJ warned us the prophet

Reactions: Like 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> @DemonDragonJ warned us the prophet


Really? I really wanna know now.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm back. We'll... I huh...


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## JFF (Dec 18, 2019)

Mbxx said:


> So we see how this goes. It can only go better after TLJ. Yet, I do not feel the hype. I don't think it will be that successful.  Too many angry fans
> 
> We should wait with confirmed leaks after the embargo.





56 % -- uhh ... On the other hand. Again, TLJ was highly rated ... I have to see it, to be the judge.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

I saw the movie if you have some questions.


----------



## JFF (Dec 18, 2019)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I wonder which parts of _Rise _were specifically written to fix up Rian Johnson's maverick decisions, and which parts were originally plotted since TFA.
> 
> Rian Johnson completely doing away the originally-planned TFA story and writing his own story, irrevocably altered everything.



Its highly.. highly unlikely, that Palpatine was planed all along. I think Johnson made a joke out if it ... like, I kill off everything that was build up .. let the guy after me pick up the pieces. Therefore .. Its not easy to come back from this. So far I cannot even imagine it. But if somebody would be able todo so, J.J. Abrams.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> I'm back. We'll... I huh...


It was shit wasn’t it 
Be honest


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 18, 2019)

Zef said:


> Mouse needs to go bankrupt.
> 
> 
> Thet have too much of a hold on our entertainment, but keep pumping out these shitty souless movies.


They're the main reason copyright is fucked.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Good luck with that
> 
> As long as there’s sheep following the Shepard the mouse ain’t going broke for a longtime


It's me

I'm the sheep


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> Whatever/10


So practically crap but meh


~Gesy~ said:


> It's me
> 
> I'm the sheep


You’re honest I’ll give ya that 


Unlosing Ranger said:


> They're the main reason copyright is fucked.


explain


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Zef said:


> Mouse needs to go bankrupt.
> 
> 
> Thet have too much of a hold on our entertainment, but keep pumping out these shitty souless movies.


>Souless

Bambi, Coco, Dumbo, The Fox and the Hound, Endgame, etc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> >Souless
> 
> Bambi, Coco, Dumbo, The Fox and the Hound, Endgame, etc.


_Far From Home_ has Feiges soul in it, Sony only paid for it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kuromaku (Dec 18, 2019)

You know, it's funny that JJ and other Disney figures make such a big stink about representation and writing women and minorities, when it's clear from the leaks that Rey turned into a Canon Sue. And here I was hoping that a good enough writer would keep the character from completely falling into that trap (RJ of all people came closest to salvaging the character).


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## MShadows (Dec 18, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> You know, it's funny that JJ and other Disney figures make such a big stink about representation and writing women and minorities, when it's clear from the leaks that Rey turned into a Canon Sue. And here I was hoping that a good enough writer would keep the character from completely falling into that trap (RJ of all people came closest to salvaging the character).


You *can *write a good female lead (Alien, Kill Bill), but these dumb ass writers just wanna appease certain crowds and we end up with horse shit material. 

Wanna see another example? Look no further than Terminator: Woke Fate... That shit bombed as well.


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

All of these Old ratings yet not a single person can prove me wrong.

Stay salty my friends.


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## MShadows (Dec 18, 2019)

These stupid writers need to learn that you *do not *try to draw in new public by shitting on pre-established lore and universally loved characters. That's extremely disrespectful to long time fans and to the source material as well.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

I want to never hear the word skywalker again


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## Kuromaku (Dec 18, 2019)

MShadows said:


> You *can *write a good female lead (Alien, Kill Bill), but these dumb ass writers just wanna appease certain crowds and we end up with horse shit material.
> 
> Wanna see another example? Look no further than Terminator: Woke Fate... That shit bombed as well.



Funny thing is that TLJ actually offered an out for Rey. The insinuation was that she wasn't special at all, but that the Force needed someone to restore balance since Luke fucked off, so it injected her with steroids. She'd be the opposite of a proper chosen one, the person that the Force had to settle for. It could have been a neat way to explore a character aware of how mediocre their existence really is, and even offered a flaw in the form of her darker tendencies and possible fears of going back to being nothing special once the Force no longer has use for her. Would have even fit in with the idea of the Force being available to anyone willing to listen in showing how even a common person can be worthy of being a hero in their own right.

Instead we got Marey Sue in a billion dollar franchise.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 18, 2019)




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## Zef (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> I saw the movie if you have some questions.


Is Finn Force Sensitive?




Mider T said:


> >Souless
> 
> *Bambi*, Coco, *Dumbo*, The Fox and the Hound, Endgame, etc.


Aren't the bold remakes?


How many remakes is Mouse gonna have? There have been so many lately.


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Zef said:


> Is Finn Force Sensitive?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm talking about the originals.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)




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## ~VK~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Zef said:


> Is Finn Force Sensitive?


i doubt it. and even if he is the entire fucking trilogy has ended, it's a little too late to start pandering to us now.

finn remains as one of the biggest insults of the new trilogy and the biggest case of wasted potential of the entire franchise.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 18, 2019)

If it's a huge flop I can see them begging rian Johnson to come back
He becomes the head honcho of star wars since all the critics loved tlj and think it's the best star wars movie ever made


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2019)

*KENNEDY & JOHNSON: From my point of view the fans are evil.*

*FANS: Then you truly are lost!*


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

Jon Favreau and Feige will save Star Wars 

I cant wait ! @~Gesy~ @Mider T

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rukia (Dec 18, 2019)

Sounds like this isn’t the movie for me.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 18, 2019)

I think I said it would make 1.3 billion


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## Djomla (Dec 18, 2019)

There is one good thing about the movie. It is the last one in SS so no more destroying the legend that is Luke Skywalker.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Jon Favreau and Feige will save Star Wars
> 
> I cant wait ! @~Gesy~ @Mider T


Can’t save what’s already dead


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Can’t save what’s already dead


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Can’t save what’s already dead



Fiege is the crackhead who thinks Brie Larson was a better option than Scarlett Johansson to carry the MCU going forward.

Him saving star wars is bad comedy


----------



## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

So, spoilers, the movie in tl;dr form. Be warned : I will delete this post if asked to. If you read this, you want to be spoiled, or saw the movie or doesn't care.


*Spoiler*: __ 




First scene opens with Kylo finding a Sith Holocron in some ruins. He plugs in on his ship and follows the signal to a remote planet, in which Palpatine is. The movie makes no attempt to hide Palpatine is alive, it's in the opening text. Palp tries to tempt Kylo into following Vader's footsteps and finish those pesky Jedis. When Kylo threatens the emperor to kill him, he answers "Been there, done that." He feeds him the same line he said to Anakin about Dark side giving access to unnatural abilities. Palp uses the force to bring a bazillion starships. It's like magic. Palpatine orders Rey's death, but Kylo scoffs at the idea of Rey being important, her parents were no name fodders. Palpatine says, "Be careful with her, she's not who you think she is."

Rey trains in the force and tries to contact Luke to try and talk with him, but she can't. When they learn that palpatine is back, Rey mentioned that Luke was trying to find a Sith Holocron guiding to the Sith's hidden planet ( Another one. ) but gave up for lack of progress. Or rather he knew someone who knew where to get one. Rey proposes that she takes up his footsteps and find the holocron. Leia gives Rey Luke's lightsaber and there she goes with Finn and Poe with the Millenium falcon.

Long story short, they find another deserted planet. And the ship belonging to the bounty hunter who know the location of the holocron. But Rey knows the ship, it's the one their parents flew with and they never came back. They meet Lando who helps them getting away, but Kylo tries another telepathy thing with Rey. He finds she's on the planet and Tie fighters soon comes firing on them. Kylo mentions Rey's parents being nobodies ... by choice. To protect her. On the ship, they find a dagger with Sith language, and the location of the Holocron. 3PO reads it and feeds some BS about the Republic law and the Sith language being banned.

Kylo lands on the planet and Rey comes to confront her. Kylo says Rey is Palp's grand daughter and ( I still can't believe this shit, so if you saw the movie correct me If I'm wrong. ) her mother is Vader's daughter and her father is Palpatine's son. Chewie is kidnapped while they talk.
Rey tries to Force Pull the transport Chewie is in but accidentally fires a Force Lightning and destroys it.

3PO can read the dagger, but he can't speak or say what he read by law. Republic law forbids the translation of Sith language. His program doesn't allow him to. Poe proposes to find a Droid Cracker on a imperial planet. They go and find a cracker. Stuffs happens. The cracker mentions that the droid memory will be wiped if they force the translation. 3DO speaks to his friends a last time and he speaks the place of the holocron. A moon of Endor, where the second Death Star crashed.

On their way, they meet fist order troops and the main starcruiser of the first order. Rey feels Chewie in the ship, they go save him. Here, Armitage Hux is revealed a traitor to the First Order. He helps Rey's group to escape. He doesn't care who wins the war, he just can't stand Kylo Ren and wants to see him fail.

The gang lands on Endor's moon. After some time they find the holocron, but Kylo interrupts them and he destroys the holocron. Rey gets pissed and the fight again. Leia pulls the same thing Luke did at the end of TLJ and distracts Kylo. Rey, oblivous to what happens, stabs him. And then heals him. Leia dies the same way Luke did.

Turns out there was some droids left in the old bounty hunter ship and the guy was in contact with Palpatine. They know where he is. The droids knew where he is.

Rey goes to the planet Luke was in TFA and she is depressed. Luke does a 180° on his TLJ characterisation and tells her to not give up and she's their last hope, surpassed them all blah blah blah. Flashback of young Luke and Young Leia training with Lightsabers. Luke reveals he did find the Holocron and gives it to her.
After Kylo is healed by Rey, he's trouble. Han Solo appears before him, but he's just a memory of Kylo. Han Solo TNJ Kylo, or rather Ben. He throws his red lightsaber away and his Helmet.

Rey goes to Palp's planet. She finds him and he pulls the same shit he did with Luke. The entire Resistance came. They mentions the weather of the planet being to unpredictable for their ships to move around. There's a asteroid field or some shit out side the planet. Without a Scanner Tower, they can't know if it's safe to leave the planet. Resistance aim to destroys all the towers ( You feel the shitty plan coming. ) The order transfers the data of the tower to their main ship. Resistance tries to destroys the ship, they fail and the resistance is almost destroyed.

On the planet Palp still tries to manipulate Rey into killing him out of anger and HATE ! Letting Lady Emperor Rey Palpatine embracing her fate. Of course, this being Rey, she doesn't. And Kylo comes with his new blue lightsaber.

Palp use something like huh ... force absorb and feeds on their life force. He gradually becomes younger and fire a huge force lightning in the sky to fries the entire Resistance ... when A gigantic army of ships arrives from space. Turns out Lando went with Chewie to bring some allies from Naboo, Tatooine, Yavin 4 and most of the mains planets from the entire saga, using the Millenium Falcon to travel and gather allies everywhere they could.

Kylo is force pushed by Palp and he dies, or so it seems.

The order is outnumbered.

The voices of the dead Jedis ( Like all of them, from the movies. ) orders Rey to stand up. She does. Palpatine says "I'm invincible, I am all the Siths !" in which Rey answers "I'm all the Jedis" and brings out Luke's saber Leia gave her. With her saber + Luke's she throws back Palp's lightning to him and he dies. Rey dies, or so it seems. Kylo reappears and he heals Rey like she did to him.
Rey comes back to her sense and she kisses him ( ). Then Kylo dies like Luke and Leia did.
When Palpatine dies : Rock falls, everyone dies but the good guys.

The resistance won. Remember when they said some shit about Asteroids preventing the Order to leave the planet. Resistance leave without any problem.

Some planets like Naboo or Endor and the Ewoks are seen.

Rey goes to Tatooine and the Skywalker farm. There she buries Luke's Lightsaber and Leia's too. Some old woman comes and asks for her name, she answers "Rey Skywalker"
Roll credits.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

Zef said:


> Is Finn Force Sensitive?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Heavily hinted. But nothing really come out of it.


----------



## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> the part about reys parents



Yeah, I'm still trying to find confirmation but that was my reaction too. Maybe someone who saw the movie can tell me.


----------



## egressmadara (Dec 18, 2019)

WOW IM SO HYPED FOR RISE OF SKYWALKER I HOPE YALL AS EXCITED AS I AM


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> So, spoilers, the movie in tl;dr form. Be warned : I will delete this post if asked to. If you read this, you want to be spoiled, or saw the movie or doesn't care.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




Like I.said

Darth Traya is the one true hero of the star wars saga. She was right all along and is vindicated. :


----------



## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Like I.said
> 
> Darth Traya is the one true hero of the star wars saga. She was right all along and is vindicated. :



From KOTOR 2 ?


----------



## Gunners (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> So, spoilers, the movie in tl;dr form. Be warned : I will delete this post if asked to. If you read this, you want to be spoiled, or saw the movie or doesn't care.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


----------



## Imagine (Dec 18, 2019)

This is all sounding like a fucked up comedy tbph


----------



## Son Of Man (Dec 18, 2019)

People using ros trainwreck to prop up tlj


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Imagine said:


> This is all sounding like a fucked up comedy tbph


It is a fucked up Comedy


----------



## Megaharrison (Dec 18, 2019)

Is Fang still active? We've both hated Disney SW since 2015 and I wanna gloat with him.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Megaharrison said:


> Is Fang still active? We've both hated Disney SW since 2015 and I wanna gloat with him.


@Fang he still on the forum I’m sure he’s laughing his ass off


----------



## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Megaharrison said:


> Is Fang still active? We've both hated Disney SW since 2015 and I wanna gloat with him.



Hello friend


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## Megaharrison (Dec 18, 2019)

Fang said:


> Hello friend



We've won the long game


----------



## Mob (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> So, spoilers, the movie in tl;dr form. Be warned : I will delete this post if asked to. If you read this, you want to be spoiled, or saw the movie or doesn't care.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


wow this part is so bad


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## Megaharrison (Dec 18, 2019)

Reminder they'll now use the Explanatory Universe to try and fill in all the massive issues with this film


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Megaharrison said:


> We've won the long game





But at what cost...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Megaharrison said:


> Reminder they'll now use the Explanatory Universe to try and fill in all the massive issues with this film


No amount of damage control is gonna fix the shitfest that’s been transpiring these past couple of years


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Mob said:


> wow this part is so bad


Think you could do an edit summing up of these movies ?


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> So, spoilers, the movie in tl;dr form. Be warned : I will delete this post if asked to. If you read this, you want to be spoiled, or saw the movie or doesn't care.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Its so bad its funny.



Yagami1211 said:


> Heavily hinted. But nothing really come out of it.


Why the fuck JJ keep hinting this shit, and not pulling the trigger?


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## Mob (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Think you could do an edit summing up of these movies ?


you have any idea in particular


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## Matta Clatta (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> No amount of damage control is gonna fix the shitfest that’s been transpiring these past couple of years


The EU did an admirable job of fixing a lot of the mess that George did in the films
Of course this is now the new world order of Disney and they appear to have no plan apart from "well lets see if the fans like this"

Mandolorian is good
Sequel trilogy was pretty bad
but maybe the new clone wars series and obi wan series will be good

I for one never want to see Rey or Kylo ren/Ben Solo in anything again
Of course there's gonna be a series of novels or comics to expand upon Rey and everything else now that the movie is out there


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## Xhominid (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> No amount of damage control is gonna fix the shitfest that’s been transpiring these past couple of years



Especially when they aren't consistent with it.
Oh hello there Lightspeed Ram.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Fang said:


> But at what cost...


Sorry this happen man


Mob said:


> you have any idea in particular


Let me see


----------



## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Can’t save what’s already dead


What is dead may never die.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

The dramatic moments works, they know how to try and put the musics to make it sounds like "See ! This is like episode 6 ! You're supposed to feel the same." And I'm ... err ... Well ... not sure.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

The problem is that Episode 8 almost closed all the questions opened in 7.

Rey's parents ? nobodies.
Snoke ? Dead and buried.
Episode 8 sealed the deal, or at least was supposed to.

So when you want to do a episode 9 ... what story are you supposed to tell ?

So either you create new possibilities and goals, but in a trilogy's last episode ... Not really clever.

Or you reopen stuffs that are supposed to be closed and 9 does it with the subtility of a sledgehammer.

JJ did his best to tell the story he wanted to, and it feels like the sequel to 7, but not to 8.
It's like 8 was filler.


*Spoiler*: __ 



There's this part when Kylo speaks to Rey via telepathy ( Force Skype ) and he grabs her necklace from billions of KM away, via the force. And the necklace is really in Kylo's hand. This is not how the Force works. The only explanation we get is : Shut up, it's magic. Kylo isn't even phisically here, Rey just feel his presence. But when he touches her, he brings it to him. Rey later uses this to give Kylo Leia's lightsaber when she confronts Palpa. Also Rey can use Medical Ninjutsu. Also Leia is a Jedi Knight, she was trained by Luke, she completed her training. Why 7 takes to much lenght to find Luke when LEIA completed her training and knows how to fight.




7 felt like KOTOR. Star Wars fanservice.
8 felt like KOTOR2. Deconstruction fleet.
9 feels like TOR. How to rebuild 7's story with what 8 did.

So 9 spends 3/4 of its time to damage control what 8 did to the story and retcon the shit out of 8.

You can tell the movie tries to be good, but there's too much Retcon of 8.
If JJ did 8, this movie might have been good. So since it didn't happen, JJ did his version of 8 & 9 in this movie.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Resistance : So Palpatine is back ...
Random Fodder : He probably survived thanks to the Sith's secret clonage technology
Me : 
Me : So secret, a random fodder knows it.
Me : What the title of the 2nd movie, friend ?


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## The Great One (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> So, spoilers, the movie in tl;dr form. Be warned : I will delete this post if asked to. If you read this, you want to be spoiled, or saw the movie or doesn't care.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


I am getting a sudden urge to throw up.

Revenge of Sith >>>> entire sequel trilogy.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

There are some badass moments and the jedi fights are a little more like we're used to in 1,2,3. 
But the story is ....


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## stealthblack (Dec 18, 2019)




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## The Great One (Dec 18, 2019)

Don't worry people REAL Star Wars is still alive.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mob (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Let me see


I tried


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Mob said:


> I tried


It’s good


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## Mob (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> It’s good


nah its shit like the movie


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Mob said:


> nah its shit like the movie


Well you tried more so than this movie


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

Palpatine in the movie :


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## Mob (Dec 18, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Well you tried moreso than this movie


agreed


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## Runner (Dec 18, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> People using ros trainwreck to prop up tlj


HOW DOES THIS FILM STILL HAVE LOYALISTS? TLJ IS ENTIRELY THE FAULT OF THIS MOVIES SUCKAGE ITS A BAND AID ON A SEEPING PUSTULATING WOUND

Reactions: Like 1


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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Grevious could have killed Sidious since he used FOUR lightsabers


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

The Rise of Skywalker's Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic scores are in, and it's currently the second-worst reviewed Star Wars movie after The Phantom Menace.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Megaharrison said:


> Reminder they'll now use the Explanatory Universe to try and fill in all the massive issues with this film


----------



## JFF (Dec 18, 2019)

Hmm.. I just seen the leaked video.


*Spoiler*: __ 




Nitōryū -- LOL . So JJ. after Kylo's light saber. They got that from Sword Art Online 




Well, Rey seems pretty overpowed there.


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## Runner (Dec 18, 2019)

Fang said:


> But at what cost...


----------



## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

Also :


*Spoiler*: __ 



Most of Palpatine's spacecruisers have each a canon as powerful as the Deathstar's main canon. Snoke worked for Palpatine so he knew ! So why building the Starkiller base then ?

Luke is the last Jedi ? No, Leia completed her training FFS !

Rey's father is Palpatine's son. Did he even had a wife ?

Kylo in 8 : Your parents were nobodies. You are nobody. You have no place in this story.
Kylo in 9 : Your parents were nobodies, by choice. You're Palpatine's grand daughter
Also Kylo in 9 : Would I ever lie to you, Rey ?
Me :


----------



## Vault (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> Also :
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



 Don't forget Vaders daughter as well being the mum, allegedly 




What a shambles


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

Vault said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So I didn't dream then, Kylo did say 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Vader's Daughter is your mother and Palpatine's son is your father !




How does that even makes sense ?


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## Karma (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> So I didn't dream then, Kylo did say
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



So Vader has another kid? 

That would make Rey and Kylo cousins tho


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## JFF (Dec 18, 2019)

That seems not to go too well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 18, 2019)

Pek, looks like my Star Wars marathon was cut short. The videos on Youku, who have the exclusive streaming rights for China, have stopped working for some reason.  They were fine the other day.

I guess I could still watch The Last Jedi on Netflix.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Dec 18, 2019)




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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 




lol Adam is actually acting and struggling and grunting, meanwhile Daisy just fucking arches her back a bit

Sums up Rey and Kylo really, he struggles for everything meanwhile she doesn't have to struggle or put effort into anything


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Also the fact that Palpatine and the Siths are alive completely undercut the message of Return of the Jedi and the original trilogy so it could be Rey who does it instead.

Anakin was the Chosen One, destined to bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith once and for all, which he does by killing Palpatine. Except he doesn't. It's *Rey* who actually defeats Palpatine and the Sith once and for all.

The Galaxy is likewise exactly the same as it was in the OT: the Empire/Sith are defeated, the New Republic returns, and the Jedi are still only one person but are poised to make a return.

Except this time, all the characters from the OT are dead, the Skywalkers are all dead, and it's *Rey* who usurps the main accomplishments from the OT. Hell, she even takes their name from them


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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Along the way Rey picks up/becomes:

The Millenium Falcon
Chewie, 3PO & R2D2
Anakin/Luke’s lightsaber
Leia’s lightsaber
Becomes the new last Jedi
Becomes the new Jedi to rebuild the Jedi order 
Anakin and Luke’s accomplishment with killing Palpatine 

They needed a way to validate their own creation and forcefully make her matter.  She doesn't have unique accomplishment that isn't a complete reverse and repeat of anything done in the OT. NOTHING that happens is unique to her story.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



The problem too is that they had to make her related to one of the original character so she has a place in the story. Star Wars is always a family story. Luke's reasons were more personal, he lost his home, he had nothing left and he's Vader's son. But they screwed it up, they can't reveal Palpatine's survival in 7 and so most of us felt Rey had no place in the story and instead the Father/Son dynamic goes to Ben/Han Solo. Sure, Luke's being the son of Vader came in 5, but at least it didn't came as the end of 6. 

Plus Luke didn't know of the force and to be honest, kinda sucked at it until late in the original trilogy. So it was believable.


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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)




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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


>



I remember this scene. That's some Mace Windu shit.


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## Vault (Dec 18, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


>


She's that broken allegedly


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## Zef (Dec 18, 2019)

Bruh.... Ruin Johnson will go down as the worst director of all time after this.


He literally created a sequel so bad it fucked up an entire trilogy

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

Zef said:


> Bruh.... Ruin Johnson will go down as the worst director of all time after this.
> 
> 
> He literally created a sequel so bad it fucked up an entire trilogy



Kennedys fault. She wanted to "deconstruct the mythology" so she unleashed that titanic retard.

But it started long before johnson. Chuck Wndigs aftermath destroyed star wars, everything Rae Sloane did and is destroyed star wars and then Johnson fornicated with the cadaver.



Jake CENA said:


> this trilogy will give you autism, mental retardation, cancer and aids all at the same time



Well given its biggest defenders seem to be self diagnosed Autists?

"Mary Sue's are.good things" is what SheRas director said In defense of this Turkey

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jake CENA (Dec 18, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Kennedys fault. She wanted to "deconstruct the mythology" so she unleashed that titanic retard.
> 
> But it started long before johnson. Chuck Wndigs aftermath destroyed star wars, everything Rae Sloane did and is destroyed star wars and then Johnson fornicated with the cadaver.
> 
> ...



i don't care who directed this shit. the one who wrote this should never be allowed to write a movie again


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 18, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


>


Daisy is like the exact opposite of Hayden, where as when he did not have to speak badly written lines his facial acting was good, on the other hand Ridley contorts her face like she's trying to be a cartoon character.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> i don't care who directed this shit. the one who wrote this should never be allowed to write a movie again




Amen. Everyone involved with the the final iteration of Disney's star wars should be blacklisted


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## Jake CENA (Dec 18, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Amen. Everyone involved with the the final iteration of Disney's star wars should be blacklisted



rey is the worst character i've seen in any movie. being overpowered with no explanation and they just give her everything out of their ass is unforgivable lol


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## Pilaf (Dec 18, 2019)

Don't worry guys the Doujin will explain all the deeplore.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 18, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


>


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Daisy is like the exact opposite of Hayden, where as when he did not have to speak badly written lines his facial acting was good, on the other hand Ridley contorts her face like she's trying to be a cartoon character.



I like how Saorise Ronan, Rachel Hurd Wood and allegedly Chloe Moretz were all passed over for Rey because "they were too conventionally attractive and we want non traditional conforming actors"

So they were so obsessed with the danger hair/tumblr demographic they cast the most unremarkable looking Male actor as Darth Columbine  and  an ugly as fuck chronically Il trailertrash resident from some shithole in the UK as their leads.

They deliberately catered to the lowest common denominator and this is the end result.

Unsurprisingly the socially inept, unwashed, filthy, hideous and obese aren't the  cash cows Disney thought they were.

Meanwhile star wars isn't about some manbun sporting loser with soft hands and a therapy animal or.some 800 lbs whale wheezing in a dress "they" are too big for.on their super scooter seeing his or herself in the characters.

It's about children seeing titans, heroes and bring inspired to dream and for adults who wish to remember what it felt like in a world where the heroes were mythical and the villains were sorcerous and dark and to share that.world with his or kids.

Its about family.

If you plan to never have kids and shit on normalcy you have no business being a star wars fan.

These are not your stories, and you aren't welcome to them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jake CENA (Dec 18, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Don't worry guys the Doujin will explain all the deeplore.



so kylo is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)?


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## Son Of Man (Dec 18, 2019)

Zef said:


> Bruh.... Ruin Johnson will go down as the worst director of all time after this.
> 
> 
> He literally created a sequel so bad it fucked up an entire trilogy


But the media unironically loves his movie and performs fellatio on him without hesitation


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm so so sorry George.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son Of Man (Dec 18, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Don't worry guys the Doujin will explain all the deeplore.


post the one where snoke looks like a girl


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

\

If only we had this instead


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## Pilaf (Dec 18, 2019)

Son Of Man said:


> post the one where snoke looks like a girl


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## Jake CENA (Dec 18, 2019)

Pilaf said:


>



WTF!


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Jesus christ if that's official "art" from Marvel STAH WARS they really are scrapping the barrel

I don't remember anything from Dark Horse looking that bad

Reactions: Like 1


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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)



Reactions: Like 6


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## Pilaf (Dec 18, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> WTF!



How else was Snoke supposed to seduce him?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 18, 2019)

lol, I can't tell if people are elated or furious at the lukewarm rotten tomatoes score. It's like the perfect marriage of rage and joy.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> lol, I can't tell if people are elated or furious at the lukewarm rotten tomatoes score. It's like the perfect marriage of rage and joy.



Pretty sure most people are pretty happy its getting dumped on though for all the wrong reasons in my case (TLJ fans raging I guess that JJ took a dump on it and Rian).


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 18, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> lol, I can't tell if people are elated or furious at the lukewarm rotten tomatoes score. It's like the perfect marriage of rage and joy.


Those who has spent the past two years talking shit must feel pretty good,  I'm sure.


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Still don't know why you would cheer at a movie doing badly.  Whatever though, the ratings will rise when its released fully.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Still don't know why you would cheer at a movie doing badly.  Whatever though, the ratings will rise when its released fully.



lol, I suppose as long as it doesn't dip beneath "The Phantom Menace", it's... OK, well it's pretty f@cking embarrassing. In the case of RT though, it can save some face if it creeps up to 60%. It's not impossible, although most movies go down instead of up.


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## Pilaf (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Still don't know why you would cheer at a movie doing badly.  Whatever though, the ratings will rise when its released fully.



It's like if you had a really good friend since childhood and they got into a really bad and toxic marriage. You'd cheer at the prospect of the marriage to fail even if it hurt your friend in the short term, because you know in your heart it's what's best for them.


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> It's like if you had a really good friend since childhood and they got into a really bad and toxic marriage. You'd cheer at the prospect of the marriage to fail even if it hurt your friend in the short term, because you know in your heart it's what's best for them.


I'm not petty so I just enjoy movies for what they are.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Still don't know why you would cheer at a movie doing badly.  Whatever though, the ratings will rise when its released fully.



Its not going over the 60s with how badly its divided critic responses and how bad its doing with fans.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 18, 2019)

Well, good luck trying to defend this trilogy.
Prequels have prevailed as the superior trio, not that it was hard with this as competition.


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## Zef (Dec 18, 2019)

Pilaf said:


>


wtf is this shit?


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Fang said:


> Its not going over the 60s with how badly its divided critic responses and how bad its doing with fans.


I've heard this before, not just with Star Wars.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> From KOTOR 2 ?


Spoilers obvs


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> lol, I suppose as long as it doesn't dip beneath "The Phantom Menace", it's... OK, well it's pretty f@cking embarrassing. In the case of RT though, it can save some face if it creeps up to 60%. It's not impossible, although most movies go down instead of up.



Considering Rotten Tomatoes is a paid propaganda site for the studios?

Its.more than embarrassing, their proxies are m
Calculating the odds of surviving your typical fraudulent  review campaign and its not in their favor.


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## Karma (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Still don't know why you would cheer at a movie doing badly.


So the studio can wake up and make something good ofc

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 18, 2019)

If the reception is already this bad it's only going to get worse as mainstream audiences see this shit for themselves and bad word of mouth is going to hurt it even early than it did TLJ.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Karma said:


> So the studio can wake up and make something good ofc


Does that about once every two months

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> From KOTOR 2 ?



She was a nihilist who after having been both Jedi and Sith came to view the whole force as a malevolent entity that used the universe as its.personal theater for its own twisted entertainment.

She saw the force as bleak, crushing free will and that.dark or light had no meaning only its insatiable thirst for pandering to its own depraved ego.

Sound familiar?

In the end Kreia resolved that the only solution, the lonely remedy was to kill the force to finally be free of it.

And these movies prove she was absolutely.right.

All the horrors and hardships all the losses and victories, the story of the Skywalker family meant nothing in the end once the force got bored with them and moved on to another.

In the end she was right and she is vindicated.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Pilaf (Dec 18, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> She was a nihilist who after having been both Jedi and Sith came to view the whole force as a malevolent entity that used the universe as its.personal theater for its own twisted entertainment.
> 
> She saw the force as bleak, crushing free will and that.dark or light had no meaning only its insatiable thirst for pandering to its own depraved ego.
> 
> ...




Considering she's one of the best characters in all fiction, written by people who understand humans, it's not surprising.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> She was a nihilist who after having been both Jedi and Sith came to view the whole force as a malevolent entity that used the universe as its.personal theater for its own twisted entertainment.
> 
> She saw the force as bleak, crushing free will and that.dark or light had no meaning only its insatiable thirst for pandering to its own depraved ego.
> 
> ...



It's like the force is the in universe manifestation of the story and by extension the story writer.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 18, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Considering Rotten Tomatoes is a paid propaganda site for the studios?
> 
> Its.more than embarrassing, their proxies are m
> Calculating the odds of surviving your typical fraudulent  review campaign and its not in their favor.



... Doesn't this prove though that they're not paying Rotten Tomatoes?


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

_Star Wars: The Emperor's New Groove

_
*Story written by David Goodenough.*


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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)

So i guess these were pointless since he never fucking died

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Considering she's one of the best characters in all fiction, written by people who understand humans, it's not surprising.



Pretty much. She was a fascinating character and not your typical SW character. Characters like her are very rare in mythologies and she is an example of an out of setting character masterfully.

Where Amylin Holdo and Poe Damarrons marvel snark is an example of an out of genre character ruining the setting.



MartialHorror said:


> ... Doesn't this prove though that they're not paying Rotten Tomatoes?



No it really doesn't.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

Those who watched the movie, at what point did the movie lost you ?


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> I've heard this before, not just with Star Wars.



I don't know where or from who you heard this before but the definitely early reception has been anything but positive and this is already factoring into account that the multiple alternate endings/cuts for re-shooting Episode 9 with the original Abrams cut, then the Iger version, then the Lucas version explains why there was so much delays in post-production might indicate they knew things were already bad before this happened.

I don't think this movie is going to get high marks either way.


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm trying to remember what it was but there was a film that critics were shitting on some time in the last 12 months that when it released received high marks from fans.  It was a telling sign that you critics and fans don't have the same tastes all the time.  Maybe it was Shazam or Captain Marvel....I have to look it up.

I don't doubt this won't be as well received as TLJ or TFA though.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> I don't doubt this won't be as well received as TLJ .


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Never said it would tbh  Same was RotJ wasn't as loved as TesB.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

It's funny, in retrospect, the Skywalker Saga is really the Palpatine Saga.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> It's funny, in retrospect, the Skywalker Saga is really the Palpatine Saga.


good, i always rooted for the empire


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Never said it would tbh  Same was RotJ wasn't as loved as TesB.



That's wrong.


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## Pilaf (Dec 18, 2019)




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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Fang said:


> That's wrong.


TesB has a higher rating on IMDB and RT.  As a matter of fact isn't TesB considered the best out of all Star Wars movies?


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 18, 2019)

Rian Johnson killed the trilogy.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> TesB has a higher rating on IMDB and RT.  As a matter of fact isn't TesB considered the best out of all Star Wars movies?



No ROTS is the best one to me personally. Anyway you are going into subjective territory if you want to argue about which ratings means which one is the best.


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Fang said:


> No ROTS is the best one to me personally. Anyway you are going into subjective territory if you want to argue about which ratings means which one is the best.


It's not really subjective that a movie is well received than another one, that's what ratings aren meant to simplify.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 18, 2019)




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## Pilaf (Dec 18, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


>




Now their failure is complete.


----------



## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> It's not really subjective that a movie is well received than another one, that's what ratings aren meant to simplify.



Except it is. Because the one doing the ratings are based from their own subjective nature, prejudices, biases, and so on.That's why most people tend to go with audience scores over critic scores in the first place. And this is a rehash of an argument I had with someone a month or so back that claimed TESB had "mixed" reviews when it first released too.


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Fang said:


> Except it is. Because the one doing the ratings are based from their own subjective nature, prejudices, biases, and so on.That's why most people tend to go with audience scores over critic scores in the first place. And this is a rehash of an argument I had with someone a month or so back that claimed TESB had "mixed" reviews when it first released too.


I was talking about both the audience score and critic scores, the audience scores for both were higher too.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Sooooo did snoke touch kylo in his no-no place?? Because that new kylo ren comic was gross 

Cmon ben where did the bad man touch you


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## Pilaf (Dec 18, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> Sooooo did snoke touch kylo in his no-no place?? Because that new kylo ren comic was gross
> 
> Cmon ben where did the bad man touch you




Luke gave him a boo boo on his face, after he dressed up like an Instagram thot just for Ben. Bad, mean, scary Luke. Always gaslighting poor Ben and picking on his dates.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> I was talking about both the audience score and critic scores, the audience scores for both were higher too.



Doesn't look like it to me going by Siskel and Ebert's original reviews. Also ROTJ grossed more on initial release then TESB did as well.


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## MShadows (Dec 18, 2019)

The spiritual successor to Solo: A Star Wars Story


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## Xebec (Dec 18, 2019)

All Anakin had to do was this and Padme would have been fine 
*edit*

*Spoiler*: __ 






just


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## Suigetsu (Dec 18, 2019)

I wonder if "certian" folks will continue to try and shill this thing.

There is an infight divide within Disney right now, Iger throwing Kathleen under the boss a day later after she makes a statement. They know they fucked up.

However what I will never truly understand are the people that claim themselves fans of starwars, dont like the new direction but decide to go to the premiers anyway... like a beaten spouse.

Also I have an acquaintance that insist this was.... franchise fatigue and goes to galaxy's edge. Talk about denial.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 18, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> All Anakin had to do was this and Padme would have been fine
> *edit*
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Honestly do they even explain why Sidious or Rey for some reason now have EVERY SINGLE Jedi/Sith in them?


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## Matta Clatta (Dec 18, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm still amazed they are doing even more damage to Luke's character with every movie. Its truly a blessing that Han died in the 1st one as I can only imagine what nonsense they'd throw on him to try and redeem Kylo even more.


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## Pilaf (Dec 18, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly do they even explain why Sidious or Rey for some reason now have EVERY SINGLE Jedi/Sith in them?




*Spoiler*: __ 



They don't even explain how the good guys win. Palpatine asplodes and then the good guys automatically win, because of reasons. Great writing!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Suigetsu (Dec 18, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Fiege is the crackhead who thinks Brie Larson was a better option than Scarlett Johansson to carry the MCU going forward.
> 
> Him saving star wars is bad comedy


And yet look at all the soy boys clappin like seals.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

star wars isnt worth this much drama tbh


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

Can't believe anyone about Feige when they can't even spell his name.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Can't believe anyone about Feige when they can't even spell his name.


God Emperor Feige will clean up this space house of mouse just like he did MCU, just give the man some time

2029 = Infinity Force: Endgame

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Can't believe anyone about Feige when they can't even spell his name.





Shiba D. Inu said:


> God Emperor Feige will clean up this space house of mouse just like he did MCU, just give the man some time
> 
> 2029 = Infinity Force: Endgame




^ coming soon to a galaxy far far away


if RoS_* actually*_ bombs - are there legit chances of KK being booted and Feige or someone else being given the full reign at Lucasfilm ?


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## Suigetsu (Dec 18, 2019)

Isn the last thing Mara does in the TT is retrieve anakin's lightsaber?


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## hcheng02 (Dec 18, 2019)

MShadows said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be fair, I don't think anybody believed that J. J. Abrams had a good chance of fixing the mess left by The Last Jedi. Everyone could tell that TLJ trashed all the plot lines set up by Abrams. He had nothing left to work with, and any new plots or villains he would need to set up would seem forced and out of left field by necessity. 

The real people at fault is Rian Johnson for blowing up the plot outline and Kathleen Kennedy for letting him get away with it. I hope both their careers get sent to the ice box for this travesty. Too bad J. J. Abrams is the collateral damage.


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## WT (Dec 18, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> To be fair, I don't think anybody believed that J. J. Abrams had a good chance of fixing the mess left by The Last Jedi. Everyone could tell that TLJ trashed all the plot lines set up by Abrams. He had nothing left to work with, and any new plots or villains he would need to set up would seem forced and out of left field by necessity.
> 
> The real people at fault is Rian Johnson for blowing up the plot outline and Kathleen Kennedy for letting him get away with it. I hope both their careers get sent to the ice box for this travesty. Too bad J. J. Abrams is the collateral damage.



To be fair Rian Johnsons latest film (Knives Out) is pretty good


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 18, 2019)

Well...at least IGN liked it


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## Atlas (Dec 18, 2019)

Another shit Star Wars movie I won't have to waste my time with. So glad Mandalorian exists to scratch that Star Wars itch.


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## MShadows (Dec 18, 2019)

Have you opened your eyes yet?


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## TasteTheDifference (Dec 18, 2019)

Seen it, some interesting palp lore


*Spoiler*: __ 



 seems like in the new canon there's only ever been one sith lord passing through the ages, when the previous one is killed by their apprentice the collective spirts of the sith transfer over


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## MartialHorror (Dec 18, 2019)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! THE WORST HAS HAPPENED!

"Cats" is getting atrocious reviews! 

This is truly a horrible week for cinema!


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2019)

Almost Feel bad for any chump that spend money for this dumpster fire 
“Almost”


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2019)

WT said:


> To be fair Rian Johnsons latest film (Knives Out) is pretty good


Not sure why someone disagreed with you here.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 18, 2019)

WT said:


> To be fair Rian Johnsons latest film (Knives Out) is pretty good



Rian Johnson has some talent, but that does not mean that he was the right man for the job. Working in a franchise like Star Wars with an established canon is a collaborative effort, and wrecking the entire plot because of some political narrative ain't going to work.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 18, 2019)

TasteTheDifference said:


> Seen it, some interesting palp lore
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Sounds retarded.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 18, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Not sure why someone disagreed with you here.


Because a film that blatantly shoves in it's politics as hard as that is garbage, sorry to say.


----------



## TasteTheDifference (Dec 18, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



finn is 99% force sensitive in  this flick, just to confirm


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## MartialHorror (Dec 18, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> Rian Johnson has some talent, but that does not mean that he was the right man for the job. Working in a franchise like Star Wars with an established canon is a collaborative effort, and wrecking the entire plot because of some political narrative ain't going to work.



I'd say it's more than a political narrative... most of Rian Johnson's either don't have one, or are a lot more subtle than his last two films. But I do think in hindsight, he's the type of filmmaker who likes f@cking with formulas, which isn't going to be all that 'franchise friendly'. It's even worse when paired with JJ Abrams, who seems to favor formulas -- which isn't the dirty word critics make it out to be. 

I think this trilogy would've gone down smoother if J.J Abrams functioned as a story overseer for the entire trilogy, even if he didn't direct the sequels. Maybe then he and Johnson could've found the right balance for "The Last Jedi", or at least they could've kept the continuity a little smoother. Or Kennedy, once she saw what Johnson wanted to do, should've agreed on the condition that he do Episode 9 as well. If that would've happened, I doubt Johnson would've closed every single thread introduced in TFA in episode 8. 

Of course, until I see "Rise of Skywalker", I probably should hold back on my opinions. For all I know, Abrams tried his hand at f@cking with the formula. I've stayed away from the reviews. I guess I'll find out Friday.


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## MShadows (Dec 19, 2019)

TasteTheDifference said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> finn is 99% force sensitive in  this flick, just to confirm



*Spoiler*: __ 




Too bad the trilogy is over and he’ll never be seen again 

Lmao

Btw, even his actor, John Boyega, is aware of how they did Finn dirty.


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## Matta Clatta (Dec 19, 2019)

MShadows said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




Boyega wants nothing to do with Disney and KK after all he's been through making these movies(I think they wanted him to come back for a Disney+ show and he said no) Only way he comes back is if Oscar and Daisy are back as well. I believe Daisy Ridley is done with star wars as well. She certainly seems to be over playing Rey in general

Oscar Isaac has already kinda taken shots at the powers that be. Don't think he's coming back either. 




So now you kinda see why Disney has to move away from their trilogy pattern their new trio of heroes can't be used


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## Suigetsu (Dec 19, 2019)

There are shills over here sayin “ohh there is a lot of people at the premiere so...”
they are like beaten spouses going back to get even more beaten.
Like I @Claudio Swiss  says, what a bunch of imbeciles, they are the reason they keep making shit flicks.


KK is to blame here, also its bith Ryan and Jar jar’s fault. But good riddance I suppose.


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## MShadows (Dec 19, 2019)

Matta Clatta said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




At least they’re smart enough to realize that contracting with the mouse will only serve to damage their image.


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## MShadows (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 




Can’t wait for the extended edition in which a reconstructed General Grievous jumps out of nowhere as Rey is clashing with Palpatine and chops both of their arms off before decapitating them in quick succession and stealing all those fine additions to his collection.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 19, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Captain Marvel..


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 19, 2019)

A friend of mine invited me to go and see it again. Unaware I already saw this movie.


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## MShadows (Dec 19, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> A friend of mine invited me to go and see it again. Unaware I already saw this movie.


Be a good friend and advise him to spend his money on a good movie.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 19, 2019)

> Lucasfilm has sent out an official  to respond to those rumors. “”We don’t normally respond to fan or press speculation, but there is a rumor circulating that we would like to address. We want to assure our fans that Lucasfilm has no plans to digitally recreate Carrie Fisher’s performance as Princess or General Leia Organa,” it said.


reminder


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## Mider T (Dec 19, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Djomla (Dec 19, 2019)

I could see it this Saturday for about 3 euros. So, decisions.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I'd say it's more than a political narrative... most of Rian Johnson's either don't have one, or are a lot more subtle than his last two films. But I do think in hindsight, he's the type of filmmaker who likes f@cking with formulas, which isn't going to be all that 'franchise friendly'. It's even worse when paired with JJ Abrams, who seems to favor formulas -- which isn't the dirty word critics make it out to be.
> 
> I think this trilogy would've gone down smoother if J.J Abrams functioned as a story overseer for the entire trilogy, even if he didn't direct the sequels. Maybe then he and Johnson could've found the right balance for "The Last Jedi", or at least they could've kept the continuity a little smoother. Or Kennedy, once she saw what Johnson wanted to do, should've agreed on the condition that he do Episode 9 as well. If that would've happened, I doubt Johnson would've closed every single thread introduced in TFA in episode 8.
> 
> Of course, until I see "Rise of Skywalker", I probably should hold back on my opinions. For all I know, Abrams tried his hand at f@cking with the formula. I've stayed away from the reviews. I guess I'll find out Friday.



Abrams WAS the story overseer. He wrote out a story outline for the 3 movies, but Rian Johnson fucked it all up by blowing up every plot point set up in the first movie and killing off Luke Skywalker. Then topped off this shit sundae by directly insulting the fans as racist manbabies. There isn't a writer or director alive who could salvage the mess Rian Johnson made.

Rise of Skywalker is simply JJ Abrams going:



The buck ultimately stops with Kathleen Kennedy because it's clear by her performance with this trilogy that she is not up to the task of managing the Star Wars franchise. Once Rian Johnson sent in scripts that blow up future plot points set up by JJ Abrams she should have put her foot down and told him to cut it out. What she allowed was the equivalent of Kevin Feige allowing a director to kill off Thanos before Avengers Endgame, or blowing up the Tesseract before the first Avengers movie. It is a monumental oversight that short circuits the efforts of all the directors and writers before and after that movie.

The fact that there were production problems with literally every Disney Star Wars movie under her tenure and that she kicked out almost a dozen directors because of directing disputes but kept the one director whose decisions literally wrecked the entire trajectory of the main sequel trilogy ought to tell you what she truly values - mainly loyalty and political ideological likeness over any artistic skill or vision. A director would normally kill for a chance to direct a Star Wars movie, but everyone is now staying away because you are literally more likely to be fired publicly by her than finish directing a movie. Not to mention that Lucasfilm is so filled with Kennedy's minions that its rumored to have become a toxic work environment.

Adding to all that, she is obviously ignorant and disinterested in the franchise as anything but a platform to spout political ideology. She literally said in an interview that there were no comics or books to draw ideas from for the sequels, which meant she couldn't be arsed to do a simple Google search for the Extended Universe comics and novels. There are literally decades worth of material to use, just like with the Marvel Superheroes.

Though to be fair, part of the blame lies with Disney management itself. They got too greedy and tried to rush a Star Wars multiverse like the Marvel Cinematic Universe without doing the proper setup and respect- aka what Warner Bros did with the DC universe ala Justice League. There is a way to correct it though. Bob Iger needs to step in and Lucasfilm heads need to roll. If Star Wars is going to be able to crawl itself out of the ditch its driven itself into, Kathleen Kennedy and all her like minded ilk in Lucasfilm need to be flat out purged from the studio. Send in Favreau and Filoni to fix this mess and bring in George Lucas back as a consultant. Lucas has many flaws but at least he genuinely cared about the universe and can make good stuff once someone reigns in his worse tendencies.


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## Suigetsu (Dec 19, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> A friend of mine invited me to go and see it again. Unaware I already saw this movie.


You did? Ewwwwww

Reactions: Like 4


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

>Finland 

Wow they are that desperate for any good publicity that they are propping up a country with a tiny market like that.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Mider T (Dec 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> >Finland
> 
> Wow they are that desperate for any good publicity that they are propping up a country with a tiny market like that.


Who is "they"? Did you even check the source of what I linked?


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Who is "they"? Did you even check the source of what I linked?


I did and it's just another random news article over a literal non event.

"Muh record opening.....in finland" like how many people do they even have in that country total, a few million?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Dec 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I did and it's just another random news article over a literal non event.
> 
> "Muh record opening.....in finland" like how many people do they even have in that country total, a few million?


You must be new to this section.  I'm Mider T, the box office guy.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 19, 2019)

My friend thought the movie was awesome. He told me he usually switch his brain off when watching a movie.
So he had a really great time, and this second watch only reaffirm my distaste of this movie.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! THE WORST HAS HAPPENED!
> 
> "Cats" is getting atrocious reviews!
> 
> This is truly a horrible week for cinema!





Mider T said:


> The filming of Cats is a difficult matter,
> 
> It isn’t just one of your holiday games,
> 
> ...



Why are you guys posting about the Cats movie here? There's a thread for it in Konoha Theatre.


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 19, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> Why are you guys posting about the Cats movie here? There's a thread for it in Konoha Theatre.



Tbh I’d probably have more fun watching cats than rise.


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## Son Of Man (Dec 19, 2019)

I want to know if there more sith in the galaxy or outside of it


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 19, 2019)

Yeah I’m in for something Sith too, but might as well make it a tv show. I’m not as into mandalorian as others, but long format tv might be a fun avenue to really drill down into the force and the different faiths related to it. I don’t know if the books did this, but it seems like there’s a lot to play with there.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

Mider T said:


> You must be new to this section.  I'm Mider T, the box office guy.


And I'm NostalgiaFan, the bullshit exposer.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 19, 2019)

So case in point, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Rey's mother identity is never revealed. Her father is Palpatine's son.


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## Suigetsu (Dec 19, 2019)

Even scott mendelson turned against it's disney masters.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Fel1x (Dec 19, 2019)

rare opinion, please be friendly:

I was an enemy of the movie from the start, I became even more against it after the leaks

but after actually seeing the movie: it wasn't THAT bad. Let me explain:

as someone who knows all the lore, played all the games, read some book - they really screwed the whole lore

as someone who takes every knowledge away - the movie was epic. well, some parts were bad : 
*Spoiler*: __ 



like Ben out of the blue turning light side and "all the sith in me", "jedi in me" were bullshit, but still the movie as a whole was ok


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

Lore is only half the reason this thing is a pile of shit.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Last scene :
Rey goes to the Skywalker farm to bury Leia and Luke's lightsaber.

This random woman comes and asks her name :

Rey : Rey !
Woman : Rey ? Rey what ?
Me : No, shut up. She's going to say Skywalker, make her stop ! She's going to say Skywalker.
Rey : Rey Skywalker.
Me : NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !


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## Fel1x (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 




btw, there weren't any "execute order 67/execute final order"

I watched dubbed version in my languge. what did Palpatine say in english?






NostalgiaFan said:


> Lore is only half the reason this thing is a pile of shit.



*Spoiler*: __ 



yes, that movie trashed all Anakin's feats. that's sad.JJ used exactly the same Palpatine's monologue and tactic from 6 episode again. what else? pointless new characters?


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Palpatine : If you kill me, I'm going to possess you. Now kill me with all your anger ! AND NOW SHE'S GOING TO STRIKE ME DOWN ! AND THE EMPIRE WILL RISE AGAAAAAAAAAAAAIN !
Rey : I don't wanna.
Palpatine : 
Rey : Do you always explains your evil plan ? 

Later on, Rey does kill Palpatine. Or rather he dies by his own Force Lightning.

Palpatine : NOOO ! I'm dying ! Curse this Force Lightning ! If only I had a way to stop this !


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## Vault (Dec 19, 2019)

Fel1x said:


> as someone who takes every knowledge away - the movie was epic.





Fel1x said:


> but still the movie as a whole was ok



First it was epic now it's ok

Which is it


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## Fel1x (Dec 19, 2019)

Vault said:


> First it was epic now it's ok
> 
> Which is it


epic doesn't mean good/great. let me explain

*Spoiler*: __ 



some parts were epic. like Palpatines OP lightning, Ray standing in the end in Tatooine just like Skywalkers



the whole movie was just ok


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## Jake CENA (Dec 19, 2019)

Fel1x said:


> rare opinion, please be friendly:
> 
> I was an enemy of the movie from the start, I became even more against it after the leaks
> 
> ...



sounds like hot garbage

they fucking treated luke and anakin like shit and like they never existed


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## Fel1x (Dec 19, 2019)

Jake CENA said:


> sounds like hot garbage
> 
> they fucking treated luke and anakin like shit and like they never existed


yes, I agree 100%. Luke's treatment was so bad and so sad, that I rate episode 8 as shittiest shit ever

but if I don't look back at 1-6 episodes, the movie was ok. but as a SW fan, I rate the movie as shit


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## Jake CENA (Dec 19, 2019)

Fel1x said:


> yes, I agree 100%. Luke's treatment was so bad and so sad, that I rate episode 8 as shittiest shit ever
> 
> but if I don't look back at 1-6 episodes, the movie was ok. but as a SW fan, I rate the movie as shit



all the writers should never work on writing another movie ever again

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 19, 2019)

if its action filled the normies might eat it up and go for seconds


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## Mider T (Dec 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> And I'm NostalgiaFan, the bullshit exposer.


Ah, run along then you're in the wrong place.


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## JFF (Dec 19, 2019)

Well, now I've seen it. There's a simple word for it, it's called "damage control." Anyone who now argues, "it's bad", and it's certainly not good or great, has to think about why things went the way they did here... and the answer is The Last Jedi.

For beginners; the whole "Palpatine" plot. I doubt very much that this was the plan for the saga or this movie (Palpatine is in the movie; this is not a spoiler at this point). It's the way they present it, that says it all -- 1000 %. Was there even a second film? No... it doesn't seem so. We find out after decades that Palpatine, the evil Emperor of the Sith, is back by reading the damn Star Wars intro in the first seconds of the movie. That´s not a joke. No one will believe that this was "the plan". J.J. Abrams couldn't be more obvious.

Then the film runs for the next 80 minutes at 1.5 speed instead of 1, as if you have to catch up on something (or a complete storyline). That´s usually happens, if there was alot cutting. Oh, a character might die... Two seconds later we switch to another scene.

And during these 80 minutes, its like, once again, there never been a second movie. Action, yes... Looks good, yes... yet you hardly feel a thing. Why? Because of the speed and frankly, because you do not feel any connection to the main group, considering how TLJ went with the character development. Right, was there any ?  But this actually gets better and better as the movie progresses, as the focus is now on Ray, Fin, Kylo and Poe. And once again, as TLJ should have been. Another problem is the way Carrie Fisher is inserted - it's awkward and just doesn't work, because these "deleted scenes" don't fit with the acting in this movie.

For the rest, its again "damage control". It feels improvised, limited and silly in some scenes. The actors are doing their best... no, problem here. You can watch it, it gives you an ending, but it could been much, so much better. I don't think there was a problem with "fan service" as critics commented... there was much more in TLJ in that regard. The core problem with the movie was, and this was to be expected, that it would start from scratch (which is not the best start for the "final" movie).

Viewable in my opinion, its a C. Despite that, it will probably get better viewer ratings then TLJ (we will see).

For the script leaking ... sure that was not Rian´ s Revenge all along


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Ah, run along then you're in the wrong place.


Nah I'm convinced mors than ever I am in the right spot.


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## Mider T (Dec 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Nah I'm convinced *mors* than ever I am in the right spot.


Definitely not.  These are my parts..


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## Xebec (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Rey can teleport shit now she truly is a force goddess


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## MartialHorror (Dec 19, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> *Abrams WAS the story overseer. *He wrote out a story outline for the 3 movies, but Rian Johnson fucked it all up by blowing up every plot point set up in the first movie and killing off Luke Skywalker. Then topped off this shit sundae by directly insulting the fans as racist manbabies. There isn't a writer or director alive who could salvage the mess Rian Johnson made.



I meant being directly involved with the sequels, sort of like how Lucas was the overseer for "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi".


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## Pilaf (Dec 19, 2019)

In "The Force Awakens" (2015), Designation FN-2187 (Finn) worked within the sanitation department, this is subtle foreshadowing for the rest of the trilogy turning to shit.

Reactions: Like 3


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## hcheng02 (Dec 19, 2019)

Mbxx said:


> Well, now I've seen it. There's a simple word for it, it's called "damage control." Anyone who now argues, "it's bad", and it's certainly not good or great, has to think about why things went the way they did here... and the answer is The Last Jedi.
> 
> For beginners; the whole "Palpatine" plot. I doubt very much that this was the plan for the saga or this movie (Palpatine is in the movie; this is not a spoiler at this point). It's the way they present it, that says it all -- 1000 %. Was there even a second film? No... it doesn't seem so. We find out after decades that Palpatine, the evil Emperor of the Sith, is back by reading the damn Star Wars intro in the first seconds of the movie. That´s not a joke. No one will believe that this was "the plan". J.J. Abrams couldn't be more obvious.
> 
> ...



Pretty much. Everything wrong with this movie can be summed up as having to deal with TLJ's aftermath. Even the Carrie Fisher inserts, which would not have been necessary if Rian Johnson had the fucking common sense to just let Leia die after her ship blew up. Instead he made her live through some Force Mary Poppins asspull which not only screwed over the moment in the Last Jedi (as well as the general canon) but ended up being another hanging thread that had to be fixed this movie. There was no way it could be done well since using a CGI Carrie Fisher would be disrespectful and she's too important a character to not address this movie.

If I were to guess, JJ Abrams original plan was to have Snoke be Palpatine's clone since that would explain why he's deformed, obsessed with the Empire and has such strong Force powers. He would serve as a dark counterpart to Rey - who was originally supposed to be related directly to either Obi Wan Kenobi or Luke Skywalker - in that they were both trying to find and live up to their legacies. Also, Finn was supposed to be a Jedi as well.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Definitely not.  These are my parts..


>unironically trying to use small typos as an argument in 2019

The clearest example of having no point.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 19, 2019)

I'd normally watch the Last Jedi before watching this tomorrow..but..do I really wanna do that to myself?


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 19, 2019)

Mbxx said:


> Well, now I've seen it. There's a simple word for it, it's called "damage control." Anyone who now argues, "it's bad", and it's certainly not good or great, has to think about why things went the way they did here... and the answer is The Last Jedi.
> 
> For beginners; the whole "Palpatine" plot. I doubt very much that this was the plan for the saga or this movie (Palpatine is in the movie; this is not a spoiler at this point). It's the way they present it, that says it all -- 1000 %. Was there even a second film? No... it doesn't seem so. We find out after decades that Palpatine, the evil Emperor of the Sith, is back by reading the damn Star Wars intro in the first seconds of the movie. That´s not a joke. No one will believe that this was "the plan". J.J. Abrams couldn't be more obvious.
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes. That's the problem. 8 closed almost every plot point 7 opened.

So when you want to follow on 8 with a sequel, what story do you tell ?
Either you add new goals and objectives or you open what 8 closed. 9 just blew a hole with explosives into what 8 closed.

8 said blood relation isn't really important, the last scene show the last scene with a boy using the force.
Which is why Rey is told she's not important not her parents are no names.
The resistance is left to like a bunch of people in 8, they could fit in the Millenium Falcon, lol.

And the way 8 ended, I expected a timeskip. The resistance failed and it's up to a new group to fight.
Snoke dying was definitely not planned.

Speaking of Snoke, he said in 8 that Rey and Kylo communicating through space and time was his doing.

How can they still do that now that he's dead ?

I wish 9 would to stop and try to make it seems 8 never existed. I saw 8 ! It's not like it never happened.

Rose ! She's barely aknowledged as a character.
Finn ! There was potential to do something great. Like where is he from ?


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## Lucaniel (Dec 19, 2019)

saw this earlier today, strongly disliked it

first hour was very rushed and frenetic in a way that seemed to focus exclusively on delivering plot-related information and moving the pieces around the map without actually doing or saying anything compelling. even after that, there was very little of interest, just a series of extremely predictable developments which left the narrative feeling like it was on rails, being moved towards a conclusion that ticked a bunch of boxes irrespective of whether this build on what had come before in an interesting way. all of this being motivated by chasing a fisher price sith pyramid and then a sith dagger (lol) was some embarrassing hack writing. not one, but two mcguffins? cmon

the rest of it wasn't as bad as the first part, but still, not a single interesting character development occurred, except _maybe_ for kylo ren. nobody else got jack shit. nothing unexpected happened, but some things were so stupid that i kinda thought they wouldn't happen. more on that in the spoiler tag. this movie basically seemed like an effort to placate an unruly fanbase by just shoving it full of all the stuff they know and like. palpatine, star destroyers, force lightning, lando calrissian, the eternal battle of the jedi and sith, blowing up planets (lol), a desert planet, a rendezvous with criminal elements in a seedy bar (damn, just like mos eisley...i know what that is!!), not a single fucking new thing in this written-by-committee hack garbage. you hate to see it


*Spoiler*: _all the dumb shit that i remember noticing_ 



making palpatine be the shadowy mastermind behind everything is _fucking boring_. having that happen but also giving him bizarre and inexplicably vast resources such as a thousand star destroyers is just dumb as shit. when they reveal that every single star destroyer has a cannon on it which can take out a planet, what can you do but laugh? the writers are like fucking chimps. all they can do is copy whatever came before, but try and make it "bigger" somehow because it's a sequel so you gotta go bigger

problem is, this - aside from totally cheapening the whole planet-destruction spectacle - makes no sense. this series has established the principle that if you want more destructive power, you need more materiel, you need a bigger platform. something moon-sized (death star) or planet-sized (starkiller base). now all that can just fit on a star destroyer? what the fuck is that? nothing means anything. it's just a way to vaguely signpost overwhelming odds. "holy shit, there's 1000 of these, and every single one of them can blow up a planet!" ok

 in TLJ, ren smashed up his mask to symbolise his rejection of being a darth vader expy for snoke. he was gonna go his own way from then on, instead of doing all this repetitive jedi vs. sith shit. in this movie there's a scene where a chimp (jj abrams cameo) welds it back together for ren. except now it looks even more emo because it has red cracks running through it. this really symbolises how this movie is basically backpedalling from any interesting developments within TLJ in order to "reset"

why did rey know how to manifest force lightning anyway? was that meant to indicate her potential to turn to the dark side? because nothing about her actual personality or character indicated that was even slightly likely, so it would be very lazy writing to try and indicate that based on her having a specific force power. did she just know how cuz (drumroll) she was a palpatine? it's genetic now, not a learned skill? cmon

so what's the math on rey being able to kill palpatine if he was so insanely powerful that he was - by himself - blasting like 1000 spaceships with force lightning to fuck up their functioning? he was basically filling the entire sky with lightning and she just threw that back at him by crossing two lightsabers? what does that mean or represent? if she could do that then how did she even fall victim to his life-drain thing in the first place? is it even worth thinking about this?

they basically faked out what could have been a much more compelling development for finn. he meets that ex-stormtrooper and this confirms his belief that there are others like him in the first order who can be reformed and saved. but then does he do that? does that happen? no, he just joins the already-good ones on some pissant cavalry charge. there's nothing like him making a speech to them to change their minds or some big moment like how rey heals kylo. he just gets no development - he gets nothing. he may as well not exist

why does rey need to take on the "skywalker" name? like, why would that actually be necessary? isn't the whole point of her storyline that who you are isn't defined by your family name, your genetic origin? so can't she just be rey?

rey went back to tatooine and to the moisture farm in order to bury those lightsabers. uh - why? that's leia's lightsaber as well as luke's. leia has no connection to that place. luke _always wanted to leave_ that place. what's the emotional significance? the answer is: there isn't any. it's just a place that star wars fans recognise, so they get this fake, manufactured sense of everything coming full circle as a satisfying ending

one of the big draws of this movie was supposed to be that the main trio were back together, so you'd get that chemistry where all of them hung out and had fun. but due to this dog-shit script, it wasn't actually any fun. they didn't have any kind of lived-in chemistry or interesting interactions. just a ton of wasted opportunities

they pussied out of having finn end up with rey _despite_ teasing him confessing to rey twice. instead she kisses kylo. then he disappears. what happens to finn and rey? seemingly nothing. guess they didn't wanna upset the white supremacist audience


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## Lucaniel (Dec 19, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this at least was pretty cool


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## hcheng02 (Dec 19, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I like how Saorise Ronan, Rachel Hurd Wood and allegedly Chloe Moretz were all passed over for Rey because "they were too conventionally attractive and we want non traditional conforming actors"
> 
> So they were so obsessed with the danger hair/tumblr demographic they cast the most unremarkable looking Male actor as Darth Columbine  and  an ugly as fuck chronically Il trailertrash resident from some shithole in the UK as their leads.
> 
> ...



At first I thought that the idea that SJWs don't get the concept of families was a right wing strawman. Then I saw this response to the new Ghostbusters Afterlife trailer.


That's right. Family and legacies are white patriarchal values. A real woke feminist has no family, dies alone and leaves nothing for others to remember them by. 



Fang said:


> Jesus christ if that's official "art" from Marvel STAH WARS they really are scrapping the barrel
> 
> I don't remember anything from Dark Horse looking that bad



The sad thing is that what you see there isn't even the worse art from an official Marvel comic series I've seen.



Suigetsu said:


> Even scott mendelson turned against it's disney masters.



Scott Mendelson is trying to virtue signal the woke SJW crowd, which is lashing out against this movie because of its "damage control" of the Last Jedi. They thought that getting a woke director like Rian Johnson on a famous franchise like Star Wars is a victory on the culture war - a victory over the white male heterosexual patriarchy nerds. The problem is that Disney is waking up to the fact that appealing to the woke far left is costing them business and damaging the brand, as evidenced by decreasing ticket sales, merchandise rotting on the shelves, and the Star Wars Galaxy's Edge theme park being only at partial capacity.

They are losing the narrative that they are the future lucrative fan base to appeal to. And they need to maintain the aura of intimidation in order to bend other corporations to their will and get them jobs in consultation gigs and diversity hires. Nobody is buying the excuse that Star Wars is overexposed because Marvel has even more exposure and is more lucrative. Nor is there a lack of fandom interest since the Mandolorian TV show skyrocketed to the most viewed show on Disney + in all viewing platforms in the world and is universally adored by the fanbase and the general public. It doesn't help that we just had a string of movies like Charlie's Angels, Black Christmas, and Terminator Dark Fate, etc. that pandered to the woke crowd only to bomb. You can only get so many public failures before people start saying the obvious which is that filling the SJW checklist is no fix for bad writing.

So they are going to try to shift the blame on JJ Abrams for writing a bad script and so-called pandering to the "toxic fandom." "Rian Johnson isn't to blame! His movie made money! JJ Abrams only bombed the finale because he walked everything back and pandered to the toxic male fans!" As if he had any hope of fixing this mess. Let's hope Disney is bright enough to see through these excuses.


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## Pilaf (Dec 19, 2019)




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## hcheng02 (Dec 19, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I meant being directly involved with the sequels, sort of like how Lucas was the overseer for "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi".



Somehow I doubt Kathleen Kennedy would agree to that. That would give a cishet white male who is not ideologically compliant too much power over the franchise. J.JAbrams needed check his privilege and let the Force be Female.


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## Mider T (Dec 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> >unironically trying to use small typos as an argument in 2019
> 
> The clearest example of having no point.


There was no point to this entire thing.  You got triggered because I posted what the opening was in Finnish. You aren't a regular in this section so you didn't realize I post box office earnings and projections all the time.


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## MShadows (Dec 19, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> At first I thought that the idea that SJWs don't get the concept of families was a right wing strawman. Then I saw this response to the new Ghostbusters Afterlife trailer.
> 
> 
> That's right. Family and legacies are white patriarchal values. A real woke feminist has no family, dies alone and leaves nothing for others to remember them by.


Can they get any dumber than this? Twitter is a joke... it’s filled with these crazy people.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

Mider T said:


> There was no point to this entire thing.  You got triggered because I posted what the opening was in Finnish. You aren't a regular in this section so you didn't realize I post box office earnings and projections all the time.


I know very well you love to post Box office projections especially in a vain attempt to act smug and pretend this film is going to be some huge success. You've been completely blatant in that when you were outright stating "prepare for the butthurt" over that one deadline news article which had no direct number for how the opening weekend for ROS was going to be only saying it was "tracking TLJ numbers' when even before articles from that site had it still doing less. 

You're getting jumpy because you're getting called out for your bullshit and how desperate you are being.


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## Mider T (Dec 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I know very well you love to post Box office projections especially in a vain attempt to act smug and pretend this film is going to be some huge success. You've been completely blatant in that when you were outright stating "prepare for the butthurt" over that one deadline news article which had no direct number for how the opening weekend for ROS was going to be only saying it was "tracking TLJ numbers' when even before articles from that site had it still doing less.
> 
> You're getting jumpy because you're getting called out for your bullshit and how desperate you are being.


What kind of a paranoia is this?. Here I'd the butthurt I was talking about.
Yeah the movie will be a success because its Star Wars.  The only "failure" of a Star Wars movie we have seen has been Solo and that was a spinoff film.  However it probably won't make as much money as Episodes 7 and 8.  I've said both of these things before.  So I dunno where the "huge" part came from.

You're just another one of these many posters who want to hate it because it was made after the Disney acquisition, you guys are a collective without original thought.  Most of you don't watch Disney or much movies in general.


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## Fel1x (Dec 19, 2019)

btw, guys

how do you feel about Force Heal? before the movie it was only in expanded universe

also probably they did it in Mandalorian for the excuse purpose before Ep9


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Yeah the movie will be a success because its Star Wars.  The only "failure" of a Star Wars movie we have seen has been Solo and that was a spinoff film.


Bullshit excuses when Rouge One was a spin off and it still did a bill. Solo starred one of the most popular characters not only in SW but in all cinema and it bombed hard anyway. Pretending fan backlash had nothing to do with it is being deaf.



Mider T said:


> However it probably won't make as much money as Episodes 7 and 8.  I've said both of these things before.  So I dunno where the "huge" part came from.



All the Deadline articles you were posting were harping on about it making close to TLJ numbers and based off public interest and bad early reviews from fans and critics alike, that is unlikely.


Mider T said:


> You're just another one of these many posters who want to hate it because it was made after the Disney acquisition, you guys are a collective without original thought.  Most of you don't watch Disney or much movies in general.



You're just another one of those pathetic Disney shills who only like this garbage because you fit the very stereotype of a consumer who only likes a product because it is the "in" thing to do like the mindless drone you are. It's hilarious how you think it only being Disney makes me hate this trilogy and not the shitty retcons and badly plotted story and characters, when I was a MCU fan from the very first fucking Iron Man film and watched nearly every single one up to Endgame. So spare me the vapid criticism of "only hating it because it's Disney".


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## Mider T (Dec 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Bullshit excuses when Rouge One was a spin off and it still did a bill. Solo starred one of the most popular characters not only in SW but in all cinema and it bombed hard anyway. Pretending fan backlash had nothing to do with it is being deaf.


Didn't I just say Solo was the only failure?  So naturally that would include Rogue One.  Nor did I say it failed _because _it was a spinoff.
Keep up.


NostalgiaFan said:


> All the Deadline articles you were posting were harping on about it making close to TLJ numbers and based off public interest and bad early reviews from fans and critics alike, that is unlikely.


1. Show me where any of my articles said that
2. You can't predict Star Wars numbers by early reviews, mainly because of guys like you.


NostalgiaFan said:


> You're just another one of those pathetic Disney shills who only like this garbage because you fit the very stereotype of a consumer who only likes a product because it is the "in" thing to do like the mindless drone you are. It's hilarious how you think it only being Disney makes me hate this trilogy and not the shitty retcons and badly plotted story and characters, when I was a MCU fan from the very first fucking Iron Man film and watched nearly every single one up to Endgame. So spare me the vapid criticism of "only hating it because it's Disney".


I'm not a Disney shill, I just enjoy good movies.  You however hate Disney though you probably haven't seen any in years.  Also big Star Wars geeks jizz themselves over the original trilogy and usually are at best lukewarm about anything else.


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## Atem (Dec 19, 2019)

So, apparently. They pander even harder to the force is female and make a Leia who has no formal training in the force defeat Luke in a flash back to TROS.

*Spoiler*: __ 






Bad CG included.


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## Pilaf (Dec 19, 2019)

Fel1x said:


> btw, guys
> 
> how do you feel about Force Heal? before the movie it was only in expanded universe
> 
> also probably they did it in Mandalorian for the excuse purpose before Ep9




In the context of the EU it was a perfectly good ability. It made sense in those stories and situations. Especially in video games where you have a health bar and need a power to recharge it. 

 In the context of the films, we've been explicitly told that to cheat death is a power only one has achieved. Anakin gave himself to the Dark Side based on the promise that if he and Palpatine worked together they might unlock the secret. It's that far out of reach. And now some sweaty chick, the kid Snoke molested and a gremlin baby can do it because of reasons.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I know very well you love to post Box office projections especially in a vain attempt to act smug and pretend this film is going to be some huge success. You've been completely blatant in that when you were outright stating "prepare for the butthurt" over that one deadline news article which had no direct number for how the opening weekend for ROS was going to be only saying it was "tracking TLJ numbers' when even before articles from that site had it still doing less.
> 
> You're getting jumpy because you're getting called out for your bullshit and how desperate you are being.



Mider doesn't care about the artistic aspect of storytelling or storytelling itself, just group hugging in the Cafe and hollow affirmations...Films must have a checklist.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 19, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> In the context of the EU it was a perfectly good ability. It made sense in those stories and situations. Especially in video games where you have a health bar and need a power to recharge it.
> 
> In the context of the films, we've been explicitly told that to cheat death is a power only one has achieved. Anakin gave himself to the Dark Side based on the promise that if he and Palpatine worked together they might unlock the secret. It's that far out of reach. And now some sweaty chick, the kid Snoke molested and a gremlin baby can do it because of reasons.



Even then, there is some wiggle room regarding Force Healing. You could simply say that there are several advance levels of healing and you need more Force capability for more healing. I mean even in real life you have different medical professionals that have different degree of training and expertise. A nurse can give some medical help but less than a family doctor who would defer to a neurosurgeon. And even a neurosurgeon can't help someone who's brain dead. Just switch in "cheating death" with "curing brain death" in this analogy.


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## Atem (Dec 19, 2019)

No training. No implication of being force sensitive at all until the new trilogy shoehorned that in there.

What crap is this?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 19, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> Even then, there is some wiggle room regarding Force Healing. You could simply say that there are several advance levels of healing and you need more Force capability for more healing. I mean even in real life you have different medical professionals that have different degree of training and expertise. A nurse can give some medical help but less than a family doctor who would defer to a neurosurgeon. And even a neurosurgeon can't help someone who's brain dead. Just switch in "cheating death" with "curing brain death" in this analogy.


Those Jedis sure didn't use it in the prequels


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## Atem (Dec 19, 2019)

They are just ripping it off from the EU, and Legends Canon. Which already did it, and did it much better.


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## TasteTheDifference (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



It’s the culmination of her training, blind sparring with a mask, she gives up her saber afterwards


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## Atem (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Training? That shit never happened in TROS. Leia never trains in the force.

Why are they retconning a much better movie for this hot garbage?


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## TasteTheDifference (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Leia has the same potential in the force as Luke, according to yoda anyway, “there is another”


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Didn't I just say Solo was the only failure?  So naturally that would include Rogue One.  Nor did I say it failed _because _it was a spinoff.
> Keep up.


You ignore the massive drop of TLJ that was the biggest in the franchise history along with it's bad reception. All you gave for why Solo bomb was it being a spin off and nothing more so now you're just backtracking. Try again.


Mider T said:


> 1. Show me where any of my articles said that





How about you read your own posted articles again than Einstein?


Mider T said:


> 2. You can't predict Star Wars numbers by early reviews, mainly because of guys like you.


Wrong, with how badly received this film is getting and on top of the dissatisfied fans from TLJ which already cost that film a 700 mill drop, you would be deluded to assume this film will not get a similar backlash that will affect it far earlier than the former.


Mider T said:


> I'm not a Disney shill, I just enjoy good movies.


>ST
>good movies



Mider T said:


> You however hate Disney though you probably haven't seen any in years.


Did you not read the part where I saw Endgame, which came out just this year?


Mider T said:


> Also big Star Wars geeks jizz themselves over the original trilogy and usually are at best lukewarm about anything else.


Implying the only SW who hate the ST are OT only fans and not PT fans along with the smaller set of groups like fans of the Old EU, Clone Wars, and even fans of non shit series like the Mandalorian who altogether dislike The Sequels.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2019)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Reminder a male has not won a single fight against a woman in the Sequel Trilogy:

- Untrained Rey beats up a wounded Kylo in TFA
- Rey jumps and cheap shots Luke from behind in TLJ
- Rey stalemates Kylo in TLJ
- And the circle continues in TROS with having a Luke Skywalker who defeated Darth Vader and who the Emperor feared getting pushed down by his sister


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2019)

TasteTheDifference said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Leia has the same potential in the force as Luke, according to yoda anyway, “there is another”




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes but she never trained unlike Luke


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

TasteTheDifference said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Leia has the same potential in the force as Luke, according to yoda anyway, “there is another”



*Spoiler*: __ 



Does not mean shit when Luke still has years over her so he should not be losing to her in anyway.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 19, 2019)

Fang said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 3


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## TasteTheDifference (Dec 19, 2019)

Fang said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Kylo sort of gets a win in this one, he defeats Rey on the Endor moon until she's saved by Leia using force telepathy or something on Kylo


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2019)

TasteTheDifference said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Kylo sort of gets a win in this one, he defeats Rey on the Endor moon until she's saved by Leia using force telepathy or something on Kylo




*Spoiler*: __ 



And still technically does not net a win. Its almost like there's an overarching theme here that the Force is female.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

TasteTheDifference said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Kylo sort of gets a win in this one, he defeats Rey on the Endor moon until she's saved by Leia using force telepathy or something on Kylo



*Spoiler*: __ 



And yet is supposed to have the power of all the Jedi which is why she beats Sheev.


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## Fel1x (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



as for overpowered Ray. she has Sidious' blood after all

as for baby Yoda using the Force... I don't know, he is 50yo. and some species are very natural with Force using. they don't need to go to the academy. probably Yoda mastered the Force without any academy or master. but still Force Choke is probably too much


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 19, 2019)




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## Son Of Man (Dec 19, 2019)

Force avatars


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 19, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Can they get any dumber than this? Twitter is a joke... it’s filled with these crazy people.


It went to the utter shitter due to the amount of tumblr refugees coming in there


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> It went to the utter shitter due to the amount of tumblr refugees coming in there


It was always shit but the Tumblr crisis only aggravated it further to lunacy.


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## TasteTheDifference (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



These films definitely don't make any sense in the overall canon lol, I do think it's logically coherent in disney wars. In nu wars force ghosts can summon lightning, catch sabers and lift xwings, in one of the original leaks leia and luke battle palp as ghosts, seems like in this asoka and aayla secura etc are specters floating around using battle meditation to buff her


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 19, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> It was always shit but the Tumblr crisis only aggravated it further to lunacy.


I know Twitter was always shit but thanks to tumblr banning porn it practically became a beacon for these batshit retards to come in.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 19, 2019)

So safe to say spoilers were true and movie was straight trash?


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 19, 2019)

Huey Freeman said:


> So safe to say spoilers were true and movie was straight trash?


Oh big time


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 19, 2019)

Where dem shills at 
Dem checks from Mickey ain’t coming through


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 19, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Oh big time


I would say Netflix but thank god Disney remove their shit from that and I don’t have Disney + subscription


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## Fel1x (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



are all voice cameos are ripped from other episodes/cartoons or actors really made it for RoS?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 19, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Where dem shills at
> Dem checks from Mickey ain’t coming through



According to a recent snitch...Mickey's checks been bounc'n for some time now


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 19, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> According to a recent snitch...Mickey's checks been bounc'n for some time now


I see them 0.01$ Deposits ain’t what it used to be


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## MShadows (Dec 19, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 




Apparently Luke started training Leia at some point after RoTJ. That flashback scene was her passing trial on her last day of training.

I guess Luke didn’t go all out since it was just training because I highly doubt Leia would be able to catch up to him in such a short time. 

And right after that she actually gave up on being a Jedi because reasons lol

While Leia’s mentioned to have similar potential in the Force as Luke, it’s clear what they were aiming for with that scene.


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## Mider T (Dec 19, 2019)

Just saw the movie.  I enjoyed it although it isn't my favorite.  I have alot of questions which I assume Disney will address elsewhere.


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## Blocky (Dec 20, 2019)

It’s odd on how a SW TV show on a Disney platform has way better reviews then the Sequel films.

If Disney started to make an SW tv show first instead of a movie, I wonder it would had changed things for the better


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2019)

Its amazing how I can look back at 4 years ago still with the TFA thread and the same suspects 
*Spoiler*: __ 



were claiming Rey not being a Skywalker, Kenobi, or related to any other major Star Wars Force-User was a "fresh" take or how her bullshit abilities in the prior movies would be justified and now this hot mess happens.




Man I am loving the fact they have to eat this shlop up with a grin.


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## Mider T (Dec 20, 2019)

Why are we posting without a spoiler tag?


*Spoiler*: __ 



I dunno why cloning was considered a Sith move when clones were an entire plotline if Episode II?


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2019)

Also the fact the spoilers were already leaked as confirmed rumors 4 months prior still boggles my mind.


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## Blocky (Dec 20, 2019)

I love Disney, I really do when it comes to them making their own original movies for children and adults to enjoy together.

It’s feel sad to see them trying to tackle a movie like Star Wars and didn’t even have a plan on how this would end. It just look like a mess. It’s even more worst when most of their line-ups are sequels and remakes too.

Maybe next year, Disney really needs to drink some creative juice. But considering how much money they are making, I feel doubtful about that


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## Gabe (Dec 20, 2019)

Just got back from seeing the movie. It was ok I did not enjoy it as much as I did. Seems rushed and to much going on. Not enough build up for a certain character. 4/10


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## Taizai295 (Dec 20, 2019)

Just saw it. It was very, very MEH.

What a disappointing end to this saga. OG Star Wars Trilogy >>>>>>>>>>>>>This Trilogy by leaps and bounds.


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## JFF (Dec 20, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> So they are going to try to shift the blame on JJ Abrams for writing a bad script and so-called pandering to the "toxic fandom." "Rian Johnson isn't to blame! His movie made money! JJ Abrams only bombed the finale because he walked everything back and pandered to the toxic male fans!" As if he had any hope of fixing this mess. Let's hope Disney is bright enough to see through these excuses.



Seems the to be idea. I would not argue, that Star Wars needed some change here and there, but you cannot just kill off the last 7 movies, its characters, the whole plot and leave the next guy hanging with nothing. Its none-sense to blame JJ Abrams for trying to fix something at least. Let´ s assume, what could he done else at this point ?


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## JFF (Dec 20, 2019)

As predicted. Audience score is alot better.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 20, 2019)

Mbxx said:


> As predicted. Audience score is alot better.



For now.

Give it a week.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 20, 2019)

GF calls:

GF: Hey, how about we go and see the new Star Wars.
Me : 

Geez, I'm going to have to do this again ...


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## Xebec (Dec 20, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> GF calls:
> 
> GF: Hey, how about we go and see the new Star Wars.
> Me :
> ...


Tell her you should see other people


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 20, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm still baffled they made Palpatine surviving the Death Star II exploding. Not only he survived the pit of death he was thrown in, but he survived Death Star II. I'm expecting Vader to be alive in 10.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Dec 20, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Those Jedis sure didn't use it in the prequels



Or in the fucking Clone Wars where it could have saved very many lives on the battlefield.


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## Pilaf (Dec 20, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still baffled they made Palpatine surviving the Death Star II exploding. Not only he survived the pit of death he was thrown in, but he survived Death Star II. I'm expecting Vader to be alive in 10.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah but no worries. They never technically explained how he was back, somehow mistaking no explanation as being superior to a bad one. Not knowing that this fucking requires an explanation.


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## Taizai295 (Dec 20, 2019)

*Spoiler*: _Spoiler_ 



Palpatine being alive completely undermines Anakin’s sacrifice in the original trilogy. Oh, and Rey being Palpatine’s granddaughter is just.......ugh.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 20, 2019)

Mbxx said:


> As predicted. Audience score is alot better.



Yeah, but to be fair, TLJ got brigaded pretty bad. It's still a controversial film, but I'm willing to bet that the hate it got was slightly exaggerated from what was already there. This one should also fall (although keep in mind that RT audience scores rely on a flawed sample regardless), although the polarization around this one shouldn't be nearly as huge.

Healing with the Force can be either a Dark or Light ability depending on the context. If it's an act of selfless benevolence, I could imagine doing things like healing wounds at the cost of one's own life force (so it's not too broken an ability). OTOH, maybe the Dark equivalent would be draining someone else to restore yourself, although the cost might be that you start looking more and more monstrous.

Still, how pointless was this trilogy when you think about it?


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## Pilaf (Dec 20, 2019)

Taizai295 said:


> *Spoiler*: _Spoiler_
> 
> 
> 
> Palpatine being alive completely undermines Anakin’s sacrifice in the original trilogy. Oh, and Rey being Palpatine’s granddaughter is just.......ugh.




*Spoiler*: __ 



This entire trilogy completely undoes and undermines everything people loved about the originals, and even the prequels. Anakin's entire character arc, and Luke's and his friends, just got fucked in the ass and left behind for something mass-produced, hollow and ultimately inferior and soulless. Star Wars ended with Episode 6. If you need further stories, read the original Thrawn Trilogy for continuation. That's all you need.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 20, 2019)

The Force Awakens : 619.200 tickets sold
The Last Jedi : 503.727 tickets sold
Rise of Skywalker : 392.483 tickets sold
Episode 9 is the worst start of the entire franchise, even behind the prequels :
Phantom Menace 450 531, Attack of the Clones 453 203 and Revenge of the Siths 641 799 tickets sold.

Just for the first day each.


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## Pilaf (Dec 20, 2019)

French people don't put up with Hollywood bullshit, I see.


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## Pilaf (Dec 20, 2019)

Timothy Zhan, who wrote the real sequel trilogy to Star Wars, explained why bringing Palpatine back was a shit idea.


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## Mider T (Dec 20, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



My God Finn got cucked so hard it hurt to watch.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

Well, I have my tickets purchased and I'll be seeing it in a few hours. I'm keeping my expectations mild, as I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than harshly disappointed. The only Star Wars movie I actively hate is "The Phantom Menace", which this doesn't appear to be as bad as, although I think "Attack of the Clones" is pretty weak too. I guess if it's on par with "Solo", which I found to be mediocre, I'll live. 

But part of me would rather a trainwreck than mediocrity. I dunno, I take most of the opinions here with a grain of salt, as it sounds like most of the harshest critics haven't even seen the movie and care more about SJW related stuff than anything else. I guess we'll have to see.

Financially, I suspect I'm going to have to bow out of that debate. People are saying that the numbers are on par with "TLJ" for its opening weekend, but it looks like my theaters is only about half full according to the website. Even if true, at least people either love TLJ or hate it, while the best I've heard about "Rise of Skywalker" is "it's not THAT bad", so I doubt it will have legs. I initially argued that it would probably do between 1.3 and 1.5 billion dollars in business, but now I think I'll have to tip my hat to NostalgiaFan there. It will probably be closer to 1 billion to 1.3, but once again, we'll have to see.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Big Bob (Dec 20, 2019)

I haven't laughed so much in a movie theatre for a while.


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## Blocky (Dec 20, 2019)

If only the movie had my man Bigger Luke, this film might have been great

Reactions: Like 1


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## Magnum Miracles (Dec 20, 2019)

The theater I work at was ordered by corporate to raise Star Wars' ticket prices by a dollar.


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## Big Bob (Dec 20, 2019)

I feel like the movies on their own are somewhat decent action movies but they feel pointless in relation to the rest of the saga. They basically just went through the OT again in terms of in universe story.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

Magnum Miracles said:


> The theater I work at was ordered by corporate to raise Star Wars' ticket prices by a dollar.



That's fucked up. When you say corporate, is it the owner of the theater or Disney?


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## Magnum Miracles (Dec 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> That's fucked up. When you say corporate, is it the owner of the theater or Disney?


Disney. Theaters make nothing on ticket prices until 6-7 weeks have passed, so it wouldn't make sense for them to raise the price unless Disney told them so.

Disney is pretty strict with any movie they give us. I remember when Captain America Civil War came out and us employees couldn't see it until two weeks passed. Probably didn't want us to spoil their numbers.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

Magnum Miracles said:


> Disney. Theaters make nothing on ticket prices until 6-7 weeks have passed, so it wouldn't make sense for them to raise the price unless Disney told them so.
> 
> Disney is pretty strict with any movie they give us. I remember when Captain America Civil War came out and us employees couldn't see it until two weeks passed. Probably didn't want us to spoil their numbers.



Ouch. That's harsh and seems like an easy way of pushing people away from the franchise even further.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 20, 2019)

Saw it.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Dec 20, 2019)

Just saw this movie. Sucked ass


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2019)

Everyone at the university talking about SW, almost all furious and generally disappointed that this and that and there turned out to be true --

I'm just chuckling. But I chime in, "Check out _The Mandolarian_. It'll help with the SW disappointment."

Except for that one Rian Johnson defender. Though now after watching RiseoS that he's finally waivering that RJ indeed crippled the sequel trilogy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 20, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 




Most of the movie felt like filler. I think Palpatine'a return was their only real idea and that they wrote the final showdown first. 

Then they realised they still had 120 minutes of movie to fill in, so they had to contrive a follow-the-treasure-map plot to make it a theatrical running time.

There's no coherent plot or character development. Just new planet after new planet after new planet until the movie ends.

That said, I think there were some interesting ideas around Palpatine'a resurrection and his relationship with Rey that could have made an interesting story in the hands of a better writer. It would likely have been very similar to Dark Empire and Orochimaru and Voldemort and all other immortal evil wizards out there, but it would have been better than what we got.

I also liked the look of... however you spell the Sith planet. The first scene of Kylo going there was legit great. That should have been the movie.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 20, 2019)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Everyone at the university talking about SW, almost all furious and generally disappointed that this and that and there turned out to be true --
> 
> I'm just chuckling. But I chime in, "Check out _The Mandolarian_. It'll help with the SW disappointment."
> 
> Except for that one Rian Johnson defender. Though now after watching RiseoS that he's finally waivering that RJ indeed crippled the sequel trilogy.



So do most people believe that The Last Jedi screwed over the franchise and that it was the main cause for this movie's incoherence?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> So do most people believe that The Last Jedi screwed over the franchise and that it was the main cause for this movie's incoherence?



I don't think most people pay close enough attention. The theater I saw it at erupted in cheers. I think casuals aren't really care that much about the overarching story, which is also probably why "The Phantom Menace" wasn't initially hated. Of course, the problem is that casuals might enjoy the movie, but then they move on, while the more hardcore fans remain -- and at best, "The Last Jedi" was divisive amongst them. 

"Solo" was sort of the opposite case. I think because casuals don't keep up with the lore, extended media, etc, they didn't really give a shit about Solo's origins. Darth Maul's appearance was supposed to be this big fanservice moment, but my theater was audibly confused, because even if they saw "The Phantom Menace", they hadn't kept up with the TV series that 'revived' him. 

I like "The Last Jedi", but even I agree that it probably screwed over the franchise, although I also have the cynical mindset that Star Wars doesn't leave a lot of room for creativity... at least in regards to its primary story. It might have been safer had "The Force Awakens" taken place in the distant future, where they wouldn't have to worry so much about the characters of the OT. But even that's a tough one, as so much of the marketing campaign was built around bringing Harrison Ford back to the franchise.


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## Garcher (Dec 20, 2019)

so what's the deal with darth rey


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## Pilaf (Dec 20, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah but that's from a 30 year old comic book haha.


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## Pilaf (Dec 20, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> So do most people believe that The Last Jedi screwed over the franchise and that it was the main cause for this movie's incoherence?



I think it was mostly that Disney had no plan to begin with and insisted on tossing out not only the entire EU, which contained perfectly workable storylines for a post-ROTJ timeline (Heir to the Empire especially), but George Lucas' outlines for possible sequel trilogies which were structured much better and more logically than this mess.

You can't just buy a world-renowned franchise with a rabid fanbase and pour millions of dollars into a new trilogy without having a solid script written out in advance. You can't. They had literally no plan whatsoever besides apparently pushing the "Rey stronk" narrative. What Rian Johnson did would have been considered a knife in the heart of the saga if it had actually ruined anything pre-written, but as he had literally nothing to work with he can't be fully blamed for what he did. He was given a blank slate and he did what he does as a film maker, just in a franchise that doesn't suit him. What THIS movie did was worse. It's entirely ball-less. The third film in the trilogy is far too late to try to re-subvert the subverted expectations. They should have skipped the Emperor bullshit and dealt with the consequences of the shit that happened in TLJ. It still wouldn't have been a great movie but it would have been more unique and more honest than mining 25+ year old EU material to desperately retcon episode 8.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

OUCH! I looked at harkins website and like only half of the seats are taken for a showing that starts 30 minutes from now. Speaking of which, I'm off to make that showing. Hopefully I enjoy it more than most of ya'll have.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Dec 20, 2019)




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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I think it was mostly that Disney had no plan to begin with and insisted on tossing out not only the entire EU, which contained perfectly workable storylines for a post-ROTJ timeline (Heir to the Empire especially), but George Lucas' outlines for possible sequel trilogies which were structured much better and more logically than this mess.
> 
> You can't just buy a world-renowned franchise with a rabid fanbase and pour millions of dollars into a new trilogy without having a solid script written out in advance. You can't. They had literally no plan whatsoever besides apparently pushing the "Rey stronk" narrative. What Rian Johnson did would have been considered a knife in the heart of the saga if it had actually ruined anything pre-written, but *as he had literally nothing to work with he can't be fully blamed for what he did.* He was given a blank slate and he did what he does as a film maker, just in a franchise that doesn't suit him. What THIS movie did was worse. It's entirely ball-less. The third film in the trilogy is far too late to try to re-subvert the subverted expectations. They should have skipped the Emperor bullshit and dealt with the consequences of the shit that happened in TLJ. It still wouldn't have been a great movie but it would have been more unique and more honest than mining 25+ year old EU material to desperately retcon episode 8.



Wasn't there already a post-TFA outline/idea that Abrams left behind that RJ/Kennedy could use for whatever, but allowed RJ the free creative choice to do his own thing? (which of course RJ did).


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 20, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> The Force Awakens : 619.200 tickets sold
> The Last Jedi : 503.727 tickets sold
> Rise of Skywalker : 392.483 tickets sold
> Episode 9 is the worst start of the entire franchise, even behind the prequels :
> ...


Wait a minute, ROTS outsold all of these, even episode 1, on opening day? Shit the hype for that flick was even bigger than I remember.


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## Kaaant (Dec 20, 2019)

Bottom of the barrel


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 20, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Wait a minute, ROTS outsold all of these, even episode 1, on opening day? Shit the hype for that flick was even bigger than I remember.



The appeal of Vader is strong with the force.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 20, 2019)

Magnum Miracles said:


> The theater I work at was ordered by corporate to raise Star Wars' ticket prices by a dollar.


"B-b-but Disney would never try to scheme their way into the box office!?"


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## JFF (Dec 20, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> The Force Awakens : 619.200 tickets sold
> The Last Jedi : 503.727 tickets sold
> Rise of Skywalker : 392.483 tickets sold
> Episode 9 is the worst start of the entire franchise, even behind the prequels :
> ...



Well, don´ t forget Solo. As many will agree .. TLJ broke something. Rise of Skywaker will still make alot money. Advertising is insane.


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## JFF (Dec 20, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, as I wrote. Palpatine was damage control.


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 20, 2019)

Once again I'm impressed with how well marvel has juggled expectations throughout their phase series, because star wars seems to be crumbling under that weight. Or at least sprained an ankle.

Do rey and kylo have a good sendoff?


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## Orochibuto (Dec 20, 2019)

Blocky said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> seems like in the new canon there's only ever been one sith lord passing through the ages, when the previous one is killed by their apprentice the collective spirts of the sith transfer over



Is this confirmed?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 20, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "B-b-but Disney would never try to scheme their way into the box office!?"



They totally didnt bury Alita to push Captain druggie!

They're totally not engaging in a massive Sherman act violation to push SW!


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## Son Of Man (Dec 20, 2019)

Just watched

Only liked the palpatine parts because palpatine so fuck it
Also the part where chewbaca dies got me again 

Everything else i don't remember and that's a good thing.


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## Revan Reborn (Dec 20, 2019)

Well shit, Revan has made it to canon supposedly.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 20, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Chaos Hokage (Dec 20, 2019)

I saw the movie today and I thought it was so-so. It felt like it didn't live up to the setup that the previous two movies were going due to them having a different writer/director that were going for different things individually.


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## Jake CENA (Dec 20, 2019)

Mider T said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> My God Finn got cucked so hard it hurt to watch.



he deserves it. he sucks

rey and kylo were a mistake


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 20, 2019)

Saw it. Basically a compilation tease of good ideas that would have been interesting but end up being safe as fuck or offensively frustrating. Describes the whole trilogy tbh except for 1 or 2 moments. Yes, in the entire trilogy.

The last scene was great symbolism on how they treated the franchise and the characters everyone loved in the OT.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 20, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


>


We already knew this would happen but just for clarification exactly hard did it flop compared to the rest of the sequels over there?


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 20, 2019)

It's a little disheartening both DC and Disney's attempts to respect artists and inspiration and let creatives do what they want with huge IPs without much oversight and producer control both fell flat on their faces, although DC at least got some wins with aquaman and joker. I still don't love the idea of presumed franchises where the storytelling is always so serialized and no movie feels like its own unique creator vision. Just because this star wars trilogy didn't work doesn't mean the idea can't work.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 20, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> It's a little disheartening both DC and Disney's attempts to respect artists and inspiration and let creatives do what they want with huge IPs without much oversight and producer control both fell flat on their faces


This implies Disney did not purposely mess around with the SW IP multiple times already.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 20, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> We already knew this would happen but just for clarification exactly hard did it flop compared to the rest of the sequels over there?



The other films made money in China somehow..despite the Tumblr garbage that's usually box office poison in Asia,

This though? Looks like they were fed up with appealing to Baizou's with manbuns and danger hair whales


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 20, 2019)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Saw it. Basically a compilation tease of good ideas that would have been interesting but end up being safe as fuck or offensively frustrating. Describes the whole trilogy tbh except for 1 or 2 moments. Yes, in the entire trilogy.
> 
> The last scene was great symbolism on how they treated the franchise and the characters everyone loved in the OT.



The last scene with Rey was pure cringe


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 20, 2019)

Yagami1211 said:


> The last scene with Rey was pure cringe




*Spoiler*: __ 




She has somehow turned into the adoptive child of the unholy incestuous marriage between Vader's twins. Dafuq was that? Just stick to Palpatine to make it a point/message you vanilla Godmode idiot.


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## Xebec (Dec 20, 2019)

Do we need spoiler tags at this point?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Anakin loses limbs and gets burned to crisp: gone forever and scarred for life

Luke loses hand: gone forever

Kylo gets a hole poked through him: healed immediately by Rey

Rey dies: Kylo brings her back from the dead


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## Gabe (Dec 20, 2019)

Mary Sue Rey
Kyle ren pathetic


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> OUCH! I looked at harkins website and like only half of the seats are taken for a showing that starts 30 minutes from now. Speaking of which, I'm off to make that showing. Hopefully I enjoy it more than most of ya'll have.


Mine was about 60% filled..but for a Star Wars movie?..the biggest movie franchise ever? Yeah....


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

I SAW IT and... it wasn't that bad, even if... it sometimes was...

Whoever suggested that Palpatine's return would've gone down a lot smoother if it was revealed -- or even teased -- at the end of "The Last Jedi", they were 100% correct. Even though his introduction is pretty cool on its own, relying on a lot of creepy atmosphere, the opening title crawl's attempt to re-introduce him was awkward. I can't imagine what it will be like watching this 10 years from now, when people will have forgotten about the marketing campaign and all the trailers. New viewers will just be watching these films in order and suddenly, Palpatine is there, as if he never "left" in the first place. 

Nevertheless, once the narrative set sail, I spent the majority of the movie enjoying myself. I think the cast is really good, even if their character arcs are pretty faulty. I was glad to see the primary characters spending the majority of the movie together, allowing us to see them interact. J.J Abrams is a good action director, so the action scenes were usually fun and the art direction boasted some incredibly imagery. The special effects were usually on point, but there were a few very "off" moments. There's one scene where it looks so much like Rey is standing in front of a green screen and was it just me, or did Leia's voice sounded dubbed over for her very first line? Sometimes it sounded like her dialogue was being looped from her other conversations, but when she first appears and talks, it sounds like someone else's voice. The marketing campaign deserves a spanking for promoting Luke so much, when he only appears for one single cameo. Lando isn't in it that much either. Leia is in it quite often, although you can tell they were using body doubles and CGI for some scenes. Shockingly -- I found C3PO very funny, even though I've never really been a big fan of his antics before. 

The movie does step on the toes of "The Last Jedi", sometimes even taking shots at it and true enough, this causes problems with the overarching narrative. Imagine if in "Return of the Jedi", it was revealed that Vader was not Luke's Father after all. They attempt to justify it, but it's very forced and reinforces a lack of overarching vision. Yet I was still enjoying myself... until the climax went down. There are parts of the climax that were cool and I liked a lot of the ideas, but it really feels like it was the victim of re-shoots. Everything starts looking very digital and rigid, with some emotional pay-offs being incredibly unsatisfying. The Knights of Ren get all of this fanfare once they show up, but outside of a few menacing shots of them, they're even more pointless than Phasma. But even though I can't quite put my finger on why, the big showdown reminded me way too much of "Suicide Squad"'s broken climax. Everything felt disjointed, disconnection; as if none of the actors were even in the same room. 

If "Rise of Skywalker" sucks, it's only because of the ending, which I guess is deserved as that's the final taste that will be left in audiences mouths. There were a few times I thought I would get angry, with one "tug of war" moment that almost killed the movie where it stood, but I was fine with all of it throughout for the first two hours. It's hardly the worst Star Wars flick, even if it arguably makes this the worst trilogy? I think the prequels are inferior movies, but they gel better together as a whole.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Pilaf (Dec 20, 2019)

So, there was a Lucas Cut and he directed/wrote parts of the finished movie, but he couldn't save it and he wasn't invited to the premier.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

Am I the only one who thinks the ending would've been a lot cooler if 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Instead of just hearing the voices, we got to see the force ghosts of Luke, Leia, Anakin, Yoda, Obi Wan, Mace Windu and Qui Gon show up and contribute some how? Granted, I think there's a Harry Potter ending that is a little too close to what I'm imagining this to be, but that would've been an epic use of fanservice. It also could've potentially countered the complaints of Rey being a mary sue, if all of the previous heroes were helping her take on Palpatine.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gabe (Dec 20, 2019)

*Spoiler*: _Spoiler_ 



I feel like palpatine had no build up in prior movie he was just shoe horned in the end. The knight of ren where just there, Rey does everything right kylo sucks. And with his comic released it was revealed it was not even him who burned down Luke’s academy and killed the Jedi student was a lighting avatar or palpatine


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> So, there was a Lucas Cut and he directed/wrote parts of the finished movie, but he couldn't save it and he wasn't invited to the premier.



The fact KK was interviewed in Japan and lied outright that Lucas wasn't involved with 9 is hilarious.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

Weren't the Knights of Ren supposed to be Jedi trainees? They seemed both weaker than the imperial guards and even though their weapons were able to withstand lightsabers... why don't they have light sabers? 

Or did we just assume that the Knights of Ren were the other Jedi trainees who left with him?


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## Xebec (Dec 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Weren't the Knights of Ren supposed to be Jedi trainees? They seemed both weaker than the imperial guards and even though their weapons were able to withstand lightsabers... why don't they have light sabers?
> 
> Or did we just assume that the Knights of Ren were the other Jedi trainees who left with him?


according to the Kylo comic they were already around for a while


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> according to the Kylo comic they were already around for a while



Yep. Which is a direct contradiction to JJ's original intent that the Knights of Ren were former fellow Jedi apprentices who turned rogue with Kylo/Ben when he fell to the dark side. This is just further cementing the fact the Sequel Trilogy has literally zero cohesive connection between any of the films.


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## Gabe (Dec 20, 2019)

The knights of ten are suppose to be the group in bloodlines try to acquire with artifacts.


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## Bluebeard (Dec 20, 2019)

Why even bother putting the Knights of Ren in the movie when they are disposed of in about two minutes? The damn Red Guards from Last Jedi put up a better and more entertaining fight.

Reactions: Like 2


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

Bluebeard said:


> Why even bother putting the Knights of Ren in the movie when they are disposed of in about two minutes? The damn Red Guards from Last Jedi put up a better and more entertaining fight.



The funny thing is that Rian Johnson planned on making those Red Guards the Knights of Ren, but changed his mind because there wasn't any emotional pay-off, considering how Kylo Ren and them have a history. But in the end, they didn't have any more of a connection with Ren than the Red Guards.


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## Pilaf (Dec 20, 2019)

Know what I hate about the new Disney comics compared to the Dark Horse comics from the nineties?

The old comics kind of expanded on cool shit in the movies. Like, you could watch only the three original movies, never read a comic, and still know what the fuck was going on in the movies. But with the Disney bullshit there's like required reading for the movie. No joke. I saw some bullshit article last week about shit you need to read going into TROS to get all the references. Why would that ever be a thing with any movie? The goddamn movie ought to stand on its own merits. If there's shit in your movie that makes no sense unless you read a goddamn book about it first, your movie sucks dick. Period.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 20, 2019)

I honestly don't mind Palp coming back even if it undermines Vader's actions. That's what villains do. It's just that if you remove Palp from the plot there's zero bearing on the past two movies. He's completely shoehorned in. 



*Spoiler*: __ 



It's worse when the climax is so standard and safe. His return is completely useless.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 20, 2019)

Luke was really done dirty in this trilogy.
They even ended it by having his name stolen is . . .

Besides shouldn't she steal Han's family name instead?
At least with him she had a quasi father figure relationship in the first movie.

Luke treated her like dirt for most of their interactions on the other hand.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Luke was really done dirty in this trilogy.
> They even ended it by having his name stolen is . . .
> 
> Besides shouldn't she steal Han's family name instead?
> ...



Or Organa, considering Leia apparently trained her during the timeskip and probably spent more time with her.


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## Mider T (Dec 20, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I like to think that Ben's kiss to Rey was filled with Midichlorians and got her preggo.  The Skywalker clan lives on!

Could you imagine how powerful their kid would be?


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## Mider T (Dec 20, 2019)

Box Office Theory hit it right on the money.


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2019)

Kind of funny Mider is posting that when what was last Disney's projection for it to be? Conservatively estimating an opening weekend gross domestic of 160 to 170 million? I guess they're doing that knowing full well it's not gonna have a good weekend compared to its predecessors.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 20, 2019)

Fang said:


> Kind of funny Mider is posting that when what was last Disney's projection for it to be? Conservatively estimating an opening weekend gross domestic of 160 to 170 million? I guess they're doing that knowing full well it's not gonna have a good weekend compared to its predecessors.


Wait they project it only at most a 170 mill? Even I was not thinking it would go that low.


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## Mider T (Dec 20, 2019)

Fang said:


> Kind of funny Mider is posting that when what was last Disney's projection for it to be? Conservatively estimating an opening weekend gross domestic of 160 to 170 million? I guess they're doing that knowing full well it's not gonna have a good weekend compared to its predecessors.


Not Disney, Box Office Theory.  Their prediction for Thursday was $39 million +/- $3 million, they were money.  However most of the earnings will probably be front loaded admittedly, there will probably a significant drop next weekend.
And yeah like I said before, it isn't going to make as much as the other two.  Never said it would.


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## Mider T (Dec 20, 2019)

I mean that doesn't really matter though because those were box office juggernauts.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 20, 2019)

when is Feiges SW film coming out ?


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## dr_shadow (Dec 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Am I the only one who thinks the ending would've been a lot cooler if
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




There was that one rumor that Hayden Christensen had been spotted on set, so I thought for sure he'd get a cameo too.

Maybe he's in a deleted scene.

Speaking of cameos, I wonder what they paid Harrison Ford to come back? He's been wanting to kill his character since Empire, so I thought for sure he was done after Force.


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Not Disney, Box Office Theory.  Their prediction for Thursday was $39 million +/- $3 million, they were money.  However most of the earnings will probably be front loaded admittedly, there will probably a significant drop next weekend.
> And yeah like I said before, it isn't going to make as much as the other two.  Never said it would.



I'm not talking about Box Office Theory.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2019)

*Here's a question folks --

What's a more fitting title than the Rise of Skywalker?
*
Personally, I'd title it as "Episode IX: Fanfic of Damage Control".


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2019)

Comic Book Guy said:


> *Here's a question folks --
> 
> What's a more fitting title than the Rise of Skywalker?
> *
> Personally, I'd title it as "Episode IX: Fanfic of Damage Control".



"The desecration of Star Wars: A Omnibus Anthology by Kathleen Kennedy."


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2019)

Just got back from my showing...and no I do not believe this to be worse than the prequels , but it was however-- quite underwhelming.

I'll cut JJ some slack since Rian kicked his sand castle..but just like his previous SW film this movie was too safe. And this movie practically wrote itself. Rey and the gang spent the whole movie being in right place and meeting the right people to get the right things in order for the story to continue.

And don't get me started on "the force" which is a GPS system.  Telephone.  Teleportation device and puzzle solver. I mean what CANT it do? 

I felt that Kylo got the short end of the stick..he didn't do much until the last act

I have some more thoughts but need  to unwind them fully.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Just got back from my showing...and no I do not believe this to be worse than the prequels



Oof



> I'll cut JJ some slack



Bigger oof


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2019)

Fang said:


> Oof
> 
> 
> 
> Bigger oof


Here's a major "oof" . Some of the people I've seen it with actually got up and broke into an applause!  I don't think this was applause worthy. It was just moderately entertaining to me.

Not a good enough bookend to a 4 decade long saga tho..


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## dr_shadow (Dec 20, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I mean what CANT it do?



TBH I'm all for seeing new Force abilities.

In the original trilogy we're told that "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" and that "size matters not", which I interpret as meaning the Force can essentially* do anything*. It's only limited by the imagination and I guess willpower of the user.

Which is why I, like Redletter Media, get irritated when the prequels and sequels start distilling the Force to a list of fixed RPG-style "spells" with names like Force Choke, Force Lightning, Force Heal etc.

In that first meeting room scene in A New Hope, I don't think Vader is consciously thinking "now I'm gonna cast Force Choke on this guy!" What he's doing is just manipulating the energy field around the guy's throat to grow tighter, the same way you'd lift a rock by making the energy under it grow denser and the energy above it thinner.


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Here's a major "oof" . Some of the people I've seen it with actually got up and broke into an applause!  I don't think this was applause worthy. It was just moderately entertaining to me.
> 
> Not a good enough bookend to a 4 decade long saga tho..



Those people sound like they have IQ's lower than my outside temperature which is nearly freezing enough to have snow. If you want a counter, more the 3/4ths of the theaters in my area when TROS premired were more than 80% empty for release. And one of my friends who works as a supervisor at a local theater said he heard audible groans and jeers whenever Rey or Finn were talking.

I don't think TROS either way is worse than TLJ but its absolutely a bad film with only a few moments it felt "genuinely" Star Wars like the time Lucas headed and owned the brand. And I am thankful in one regard, it makes being a Prequel fan even better with the Sequels trying to shit on the PT and OT equally. So that's a positive I can take from it.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 20, 2019)

My theatre in Macau was also half-empty.

Which isn't a perfect proxy for how the movie will do in China generally, since the Macanese have a slightly different Portuguese-influenced taste in movies than mainlanders do, but it sure doesn't bode well.


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## Suigetsu (Dec 20, 2019)

Fang said:


> Kind of funny Mider is posting that when what was last Disney's projection for it to be? Conservatively estimating an opening weekend gross domestic of 160 to 170 million? I guess they're doing that knowing full well it's not gonna have a good weekend compared to its predecessors.


Dont forget it flopped big time in china.


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## Parallax (Dec 20, 2019)

it's so weird being invested in poverty tier lore man

this thread always delivers


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> TBH I'm all for seeing new Force abilities.
> 
> In the original trilogy we're told that "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" and that "size matters not", which I interpret as meaning the Force can essentially* do anything*. It's only limited by the imagination and I guess willpower of the user.
> 
> ...


Ehh..it makes force sensitives broken. There's absolutely no way to challenge these people. And the force in this film did not require willpower or imagination it's just..stumbled into randomly...


Fang said:


> Those people sound like they have IQ's lower than my outside temperature which is nearly freezing enough to have snow. If you want a counter, more the 3/4ths of the theaters in my area when TROS premired were more than 80% empty for release. And one of my friends who works as a supervisor at a local theater said he heard audible groans and jeers whenever Rey or Finn were talking.
> 
> I don't think TROS either way is worse than TLJ but its absolutely a bad film with only a few moments it felt "genuinely" Star Wars like the time Lucas headed and owned the brand. And I am thankful in one regard, it makes being a Prequel fan even better with the Sequels trying to shit on the PT and OT equally. So that's a positive I can take from it.


My theater was mostly filled..but I live in a populated city.

But yeah my room was more receptive.  They laughed during the funny moments..cheered..ouuuu and ahhhh'd and finally applauded.


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## Parallax (Dec 20, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> Dont forget it flopped big time in china.


goin against Ip Man 4 will do that


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## Konami Yatsa (Dec 20, 2019)

Honestly speaking, revenge of the sith beat out this whole new trilogy and that’s mostly where my dissatisfaction lies. Every single one of these movies seems to just linger in the okay bracket, they’re not terrible but I find them forgettably average.

Except for the last Jedi, That is horrible beyond defense.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Rey builds a high tech new saber on her own, while Kylo under his uncle's tutelage built one that looks like the wardrobe I tried to put together from scratch


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## dr_shadow (Dec 20, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 




The final scene did touch on something I've thought about before: Are the Sith as strong as all the Jedi combined?

If there's only ever two of them, and they're each as strong as one Jedi, then it doesn't make sense why they've survived for so long. It's impressive in itself that Palpatine could solo like five Jedi Masters, but has nobody in the past tried just throwing all the Jedi in existence at whoever is the current Sith Lord?

A way to rationalize it would be that there's somehow a finite amount of "Force" and that this is split between all currently living Force users. The Light Side would be 50% of the Force and the Dark Side 50% of the Force. Since there's only ever two Dark users they'd each have 25% of the Force, whereas the Light users are more numerous and therefore get a smaller individual share.

But that depends on whether the Light and Dark sides are really different "materials" (like matter and antimatter), or if they're just terms for how you might use the Force. Like how a lightsaber by itself isn't good or evil, but can be either depending on if you're swinging it at an innocent or someone who deserves it.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I remember hearing at one point that Ford was contractually obligated to appear in all three, although that was before "The Force Awakens" was actually released, so it's possible it might have been a ruse.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2019)

>waiting for the extended cut


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

Well, the audience score on rotten tomatoes currently rests at 86%, so someone must be enjoying it. I do look forward to all of the people who constantly remind us of TLJ's 43% try to argue that the system is unreliable. lol. The internet is truly a magical and confusing place. 

My theater was about half full, with the only real gasp coming in the form of 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Han's cameo


, although they did laugh at some of the jokes. The only groan I heard was when 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Rey kissed Ben... but that might've just been me.




I guess it was a step up from "Solo", when the entire theater was like "huh?" when Darth Maul appeared. "The Force Awakens" and "The Last Jedi" were the best theatrical experiences, as everyone clapped loudly when TFA began and ended. People were sobbing in the theater when Luke died in TLJ, with some gasping when it appeared Leia would die.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2019)

I don't like the whole "I have badasses in my bloodline so I'm a badass by default " thing this trilogy had going on. 

Characters are just stumbling into being Luke's level on birthright alone ! ...


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 20, 2019)

The old jedi council were really...REALLY  bad teachers..total waste of time it seems like.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 20, 2019)

I feel bad for Anthony Daniels for all the cringe lines his character is made to say. Though admittedly that's been the case since Attack of the Clones.


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## Revan Reborn (Dec 20, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read The Plageuis Novel for a legends answer.

Reactions: Like 2


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## MartialHorror (Dec 20, 2019)

You know there was probably an alternate ending where 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Finn and Rey kiss, as the movie builds up Finn's feelings, which are left hanging. Or at least a scene where Finn realizes she doesn't love him and moves on, although I think I like the idea of them hooking up more than I do Rey/Ben.


. I assume if there was, it tested poorly. 



~Gesy~ said:


> I don't like the whole "I have badasses in my bloodline so I'm a badass by default " thing this trilogy had going on.
> 
> Characters are just stumbling into being Luke's level on birthright alone ! ...



Although to be fair, one can argue that Luke stumbled onto his own level on birthright himself. 

I don't mind the force being used in certain specific ways, like healing. But the tracking was a little confusing to me, as such an ability would've theoretically solved all of the Jedi's problems during the prequels.


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 20, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Well, the audience score on rotten tomatoes currently rests at 86%, so someone must be enjoying it. I do look forward to all of the people who constantly remind us of TLJ's 43% try to argue that the system is unreliable. lol. The internet is truly a magical and confusing place.



Doubly so because HBO's watchmen _still_ has a rotten audience score despite rottentomatoes new verification filter.

Which they're somehow applying to television despite there being no tickets attached to tv shows.

...I reckon that's where the problem lies. Any review bombs happened for movie audience scores since the verification was in place?


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## Xebec (Dec 21, 2019)

Revan Reborn said:


> Read The Plageuis Novel for a legends answer.


Luceno needs to write a new canon novel already dude is 72 years old

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

As I said earlier in the thread, I think the franchise needs about a ten-year break now. Maybe have the next one come out in 2029. That way you will still have had a Star Wars movie every decade.

*1970s*
A New Hope (1977)

*1980s*
The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
Return of the Jedi (1983)

*1990s*
The Phantom Menace (1999)

*2000s*
Attack of the Clones (2002)
Revenge of the Sith (2005)

*2010s*
The Force Awakens (2015)
The Last Jedi (2017)
Rise of Skywalker (2019)

---

Phantom was just barely within the 90s, so there is precedent for the next one being released just barely inside the 20s. The gap would be the same as that between Sith and Force.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 21, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The way I understand it, in practice the Rule of Two means Sith operate in cells of two people - master and apprentice - because if you get multiple pairs of Sith together they eventually get into power struggles via their Social Darwinist ideology and start killing each other off until only one pair remain. In the Clone Wars animated series, there were more than 2 Sith alive at one time, but they either don't know about the others or have an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality because they have other things to worry about. Furthermore, more Sith are always appearing because you have Jedi falling into the Dark Path, Sith taking up new apprentices, etc. Also, there are also other factions that don't call themselves Sith per se, but still utilize the Dark Side of the Force like the Nightsisters / Witches of Darthomir.


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## Suigetsu (Dec 21, 2019)

Parallax said:


> goin against Ip Man 4 will do that


IP Man 4?


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> IP Man 4?



Ip Man arguably has a bigger following in China than Star Wars does, and they know it, or they wouldn't have opened it on *the same day*.

Master Ip doesn't fear your white space imperialism.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 21, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> The other films made money in China somehow..despite the Tumblr garbage that's usually box office poison in Asia,
> 
> This though? Looks like they were fed up with appealing to Baizou's with manbuns and danger hair whales





Suigetsu said:


> Dont forget it flopped big time in china.





mr_shadow said:


> Ip Man arguably has a bigger following in China than Star Wars does, and they know it, or they wouldn't have opened it on *the same day*.
> 
> Master Ip doesn't fear your white space imperialism.



Didn't the Last Jedi also do badly in China? It's kind of odd that Marvel superheroes would do better in China than Star Wars considering how Star Wars is probably a closer cultural fit than Western superheroes. The Force is basically the Space Opera version of Chi, and the Sith and Jedi would function as the heterodox and orthodox martial arts schools in Wuxia stories.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

*Performance in China*

1977. Star Wars: A New Hope (n/a*)

1980. Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (n/a*)

1983. Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (n/a*)

1999. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace ($4,100,273)

2002. Star Wars: Attack of the Clones ($5,488,408)

2005. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith ($9,128,645)

2008. Ip Man ($13,728,640)

2010. Ip Man 2 ($49,516,279)

2015. Ip Man 3 (*$124,101,198) *

2015. Star Wars: The Force Awakens (*$124,159,000) 
*
2017. Star Wars: The Last Jedi ($42,577,974)

2019. Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker (TBD)

2019. Ip Man 4 (TBD)

* _Films from the "Capitalist" United States were banned in China until 1994._


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## Mider T (Dec 21, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> Dont forget it flopped big time in china.


China doesn't have the same history or live for Star Wars in general as the rest of the world.

Edit: Ninja'd or whatever the Chinese equivalent of a ninja is.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 21, 2019)

Mider T said:


> China doesn't have the same history or live for Star Wars in general as the rest of the world.
> 
> Edit: Ninja'd or whatever the Chinese equivalent of a ninja is.



Neither does China have the same history with Marvel superheroes or Transformers. It didn't stop those movies from finding an audience there.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

Parallax said:


> goin against Ip Man 4 will do that



TLJ literally went against a shitty RomCom domestic Chinese movie and flopped hard and Solo got buried after it as well. So I don't really think that means anything.



~Gesy~ said:


> My theater was mostly filled..but I live in a populated city.
> 
> But yeah my room was more receptive.  They laughed during the funny moments..cheered..ouuuu and ahhhh'd and finally applauded.



I live right outside of DC in the metropolitan tri-state area. It doesn't seem like a good sign to me tbh.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 21, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Performance in China*
> 2015. Ip Man 3 (*$124,101,198) *
> 
> 2015. Star Wars: The Force Awakens (*$124,159,000)
> ...



The fact that Star Wars The Force Awakens was able to go toe-to-toe with Ip Man 3 but The Last Jedi crashed and burned in China only adds further evidence to the theory that Rian Johnson fucked over the Star Wars trilogy. Star Wars effectively lost the Chinese market because of his woke shenanigans.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

R1 did okay-ish in China but Solo actually did even worse then TLJ did in China.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

Re-organising my chronological table to make it a bit more accessible.

1. Star Wars: The Force Awakens ($124,159,000)
2. Ip Man 3 ($124,101,198)

3. Ip Man 2 ($49,516,279)
4. Star Wars: The Last Jedi ($42,577,974)
5. Ip Man ($13,728,640)

6. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith ($9,128,645)
7. Star Wars: Attack of the Clones ($5,488,408)
8. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace ($4,100,273)

-. Return of the Jedi (n/a)
-. The Empire Strikes Back (n/a)
-. A New Hope (n/a)

---

Remember from the other table that Ip Man 2 came out in 2010! The Last Jedi being in the same order of magnitude as it is mostly due to inflation.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> TLJ literally went against a shitty RomCom domestic Chinese movie



I actually saw that one (The Ex-files 2), and it was better than The Last Jedi! Well deserved!


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## Mider T (Dec 21, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> Neither does China have the same history with Marvel superheroes or Transformers. It didn't stop those movies from finding an audience there.


China had about as much history with Marvel and Transformers as the rest of the world did, those movies were originally released in China as the same time as everywhere else.  China didn't get the original Star Wars in the 70s/80s though so it's not apart of historical lore like it is in the West.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

At least with the prequels you had an upward trend in China, with each movie making slightly more than its predecessor.

This may be due to inflation and/or the yuan strengthening against the dollar during China's boom years, but whatever the reason it sure looks better than the TFA to TLJ plunge.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> R1 did okay-ish in China but Solo actually did even worse then TLJ did in China.



Which was the same pattern we saw in the rest of the world including the US. The Last Jedi still had momentum from The Force Awakens as well as Luke Skywalker to bolster its sales. But once audience saw the movie they realized that it ruined every plot point set up by the first movie and that this trilogy was a rudderless mess. New fans saw that there was no point in getting invested in it anymore. Old fans had even more to be angry about since it made completely derailed Luke Skywalker's character, who is not only one of the most popular and famous characters in the franchise but one of the most famous heroes in movie history. Rian Johnson's direct insults to the fanbase only further fueled the uproar.



Mider T said:


> China had about as much history with Marvel and Transformers as the rest of the world did, those movies were originally released in China as the same time as everywhere else.  China didn't get the original Star Wars in the 70s/80s though so it's not apart of historical lore like it is in the West.



Which is kind of my point. This trilogy was meant to make a good first impression for a new generation which includes the billion strong Chinese market. And based on the sales from The Force Awakens, it was on its way to being another profitable Disney franchise in China until Rian Johnson fucked it up.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Dec 21, 2019)




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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

Mider T said:


> China had about as much history with Marvel and Transformers as the rest of the world did, those movies were originally released in China as the same time as everywhere else.  China didn't get the original Star Wars in the 70s/80s though so it's not apart of historical lore like it is in the West.



Transformers has been around in the west since 1983 or 84. China isn't Japan anyways, they don't have the same exposure to GI Joes, Fast and the Furious, or Transformers as we do.

"historical lore"

lol

Also:

"As Marvel"

No they don't.


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## Mider T (Dec 21, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> Which is kind of my point. This trilogy was meant to make a good first impression for a new generation which includes the billion strong Chinese market. And based on the sales from The Force Awakens, it was on its way to being another profitable Disney franchise in China until Rian Johnson fucked it up.


I think it's a little more complex than that.  It is notoriously hard to predict the Chinesw market; rural Chinese don't have the same cinematic tastes as urban Chinese.


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## Mider T (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> Transformers has been around in the west since 1983 or 84. China isn't Japan anyways, they don't have the same exposure to GI Joes, Fast and the Furious, or Transformers as we do.
> 
> "historical lore"
> 
> ...


Transformers FILM series (live action) started in 2007.  Anything prior to that doesn't matter much more than any other movie remake.

Yeah historical lore.  You can quote a Star Wars movie or make a reference in mixed society in the West and people will understand what you're talking about, it's one of the most famous movie series in America and has been apart of pop culture for decades.  It's not the same in China.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Transformers FILM series (live action) started in 2007.  Anything prior to that doesn't matter much more than any other movie remake.



You didn't say anything about the films, you blanket checked off a remark that simply read "Transformers".  Same goes for Marvel and by extension DC comics which have been around since the 20s to 50s and when the golden age of comics had those forms of media as mainstream as regular TV shows and films are today. Apples and oranges, baby.



> Yeah historical lore.  You can quote a Star Wars movie or make a reference in mixed society in the West and people will understand what you're talking about, it's one of the most famous movie series in America and has been apart of pop culture for decades.  It's not the same in China.



There is no such thing as historical lore in regards to pop-culture. You simply could've said in a more elegant way that Star Wars is so heavily embedded in Western pop-culture that references, appeal, and nostalgia to it are entwined in some manner or another to this day even if not around, are always present.


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## Mider T (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> You didn't say anything about the films, you blanket checked off a remark that simply read "Transformers".  Same goes for Marvel and by extension DC comics which have been around since the 20s to 50s and when the golden age of comics had those forms of media as mainstream as regular TV shows and films are today. Apples and oranges, baby.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as historical lore in regards to pop-culture. You simply could've said in a more elegant way that Star Wars is so heavily embedded in Western pop-culture that references, appeal, and nostalgia to it are entwined in some manner or another to this day even if not around, are always present.


Everything here is semantics.  I'm pretty sure you got the point.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Everything here is semantics.  I'm pretty sure you got the point.



I'm not arguing semantics. My entire shtick here is your argumentation is flawed and barely comprehensible with what you are trying to say, dude. My only point is the same reason why nothing in Chinese pop-culture remotely has any impetus or importance in Western pop-culture, same way goes for the most part with it in the Sino world.

Star Wars popular enough when the Prequel Trilogy was airing to illict huge waves of pirating of it in China in the late 90s to mid 2000s. Transformers, the Fast and the Furious, MCU films, etc...found a splash not because they showed up on the silverscreen the same time they did in the West with China, but because the films weren't so alien and incomprehensible to their senses like the Sequels were.

I think even Mr_Shadows said what he read and translated during TLJ and TFA posting was Chinese audiences found many of the new actors to be unattractive, offensive to their cultural standards, etc...Which is probably the main reason why it has truly flopped in China. Perhaps that might've happened with the OT and PT as well but Lucas had enough smarts to not make that mistake of trying to force open (lol) a new market somewhere where he knew it would never work.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 21, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> At least with the prequels you had an upward trend in China, with each movie making slightly more than its predecessor.
> 
> This may be due to inflation and/or the yuan strengthening against the dollar during China's boom years, but whatever the reason it sure looks better than the TFA to TLJ plunge.



Personally, I would say it was due to Revenge of the Sith being a better movie than The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones. Despite Luca's clunky execution, the mythic grandeur of the story still breaks through: the Fall of the Republic, the betrayal of the Jedi Order, the tragic fall of a Jedi hero Anakin Skywalker, etc. 

This is where Lucas' strength on writing stories with universal themes manifests in the rare stroke of writing genius. Seriously, who doesn't get chills when watching this scene.


Lucas said that he was thinking of Nixon when he wrote that, but at the time conservatives said that it was a backhand reference to the George W Bush administration. And can you say with a straight face that it doesn't apply to the Trump administration?

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> I think even Mr_Shadows said what he read and translated during TLJ and TFA posting was Chinese audiences found many of the new actors to be unattractive, offensive to their cultural standards, etc...Which is probably the main reason why it has truly flopped in China. Perhaps that might've happened with the OT and PT as well but Lucas had enough smarts to really hugely focus on opening up China to Star Wars like Disney has.



That wasn't actually me. This is stuff that's been reported in the Western press.

What you're both kind of saying (but talking past each other) is that Star Wars is to the West what Romance of the Three Kingdoms is to the East.

Every Chinese person has seen the CCTV television adaptation of ROTK, so if you quote something that Cao Cao said at the Battle of the Red Cliffs it's as iconic as Vader's "I am your father".

But quote Cao Cao to a Westerner and they might not even know who this character is, any more than a Chinese knows who Darth Vader is.

Save for a minority of "nerds" who have been exposed to ROTK lore mainly through the Dynasty Warriors video games. (Like how there is a minority of Chinese nerds who are into Star Wars for one reason or another)


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> Lucas said that he was thinking of Nixon when he wrote that, but at the time conservatives said that it was a backhand reference to the George W Bush administration. And can you say with a straight face that it doesn't apply to the Trump administration?



If you draw this analogy from Palpatine (Bush) manipulating both the Separatists (Afghanistan) and Republic (United States) towards war, does that mean George Lucas is a 9/11 Truther?


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 21, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> Personally, I would say it was due to Revenge of the Sith being a better movie than The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones. Despite Luca's clunky execution, the mythic grandeur of the story still breaks through: the Fall of the Republic, the betrayal of the Jedi Order, the tragic fall of a Jedi hero Anakin Skywalker, etc.
> 
> This is where Lucas' strength on writing stories with universal themes manifests in the rare stroke of writing genius. Seriously, who doesn't get chills when watching this scene.
> 
> ...



This scene is a reminder that you need good villains. That's the sequel trilogy's biggest weakness IMO, and that's saying something given how hard they diarrheaed over the lore. Snoke was forgettable, Kylo was constantly on the hero's dick, and Palp was shoehorned like he was a post-season pass DLC.

Phasma actually seemed interesting but they Snoked her mid-way into having a decent sub-plot.

Only other noteworthy villain is TR8R and that's due to a meme.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 21, 2019)

It seems that the Curse of Sheev holds true in the main saga. The general rule is that if Palpatine appears in the flesh, then chances are that the movie is going to be a lesser effort than the original two. _Empire _only had him appearing as a hologram, so it escaped the curse. The worst part is that he's a genuinely entertaining and iconic character who easily becomes one of the highlights of whatever he's in. The tragedy of that is that _Empire_ aside, Palpatine never gets to be in a good _Star Wars_ movie.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 21, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> If you draw this analogy from Palpatine (Bush) manipulating both the Separatists (Afghanistan) and Republic (United States) towards war, does that mean George Lucas is a 9/11 Truther?



Honestly, Lucas works in a more mythic thematic perspective. I think Shakespeare's Julius Caesar would be as much an influence as George W Bush.



mr_shadow said:


> I actually saw that one (The Ex-files 2), and it was better than The Last Jedi! Well deserved!



Just out of curiousity, what are your thoughts on The Last Jedi?



Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> This scene is a reminder than you need good villains. That's the sequel trilogy's biggest weakness IMO, and that's saying something given how hard they diarrheaed over the lore. Snoke was forgettable, Kylo was constantly on the hero's dick, and Palp was shoehorned like he was a post-season pass DLC.
> 
> Phasma actually seemed interesting but they Snoked her mid-way into having a decent sub-plot.
> 
> Only other noteworthy villain is TR8R and that's due to a meme.



I definitely agree. Palpatine was easily the best part of the Prequels, and Darth Vader is literally one of the most influential villains of all time. The Sequels have nothing like that because any menace the villains had was short circuited when Rian Johnson killed or humiliated them all in the Last Jedi. The Empire and the First Order are supposed to be based on Nazis. The problem is that the Empire was based on actual Nazis who were treated as legitimate competent threats. Whereas the First Order is based on a woke SJW take on what modern alt-right nazis (and to a lesser degree the old school fandom) are supposed to be - whiny emotionally fragile manbabies. The problem is that most people aren't steeped in woke ideology enough to maintain the doublethink that these so-called villains are both a legitimate menace but worthy of mockery and contempt. Rian Johnson and his band of writers were so focused on venting their spleen against their political foes that they completely forgot that a hero is only as good as the villain they face.


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## Suigetsu (Dec 21, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> The fact that Star Wars The Force Awakens was able to go toe-to-toe with Ip Man 3 but The Last Jedi crashed and burned in China only adds further evidence to the theory that Rian Johnson fucked over the Star Wars trilogy. Star Wars effectively lost the Chinese market because of his woke shenanigans.


It also means people didnt like tfa so they didnt bite the second shitty dish.


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## Revan Reborn (Dec 21, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

Old observation, by why'd Lucas decide to call the Dark Force users "Sith" when that's an anagram for "Shit"? He didn't know in 1999 that spell-check programs across the world were going to fuck up discussion of his movies?


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

Star Wars streaming is working in China again, so now I'm watching The Empire Strikes Back. 

I noticed something that I don't know if it's a writing mistake or subtle genius:

Right when the Empire has located the rebel base on Hoth at the beginning, Anakin says something to the effect of "_Skywalker_ is there". As in, he knows Luke's name. But not until about an hour later does he have the hologram conversation with Palpatine, in which the Emperor informs him that Luke is probably Anakin's son, to which he replies surprised "how can that be?"

So either George was snoozing when he wrote that first scene, or his subtly implying that Anakin knew about Luke_ before_ Palpatine did, and that he's only feigning surprise in that other scene. After all, his very next line is "if he could be turned..." He's clearly concerned with Luke's well-being.

If he already knew about Luke but didn't immediately tell the Emperor about him, that points to him being serious later in the movie when he proposes to take on Luke as his apprentice and then go overthrow Palpatine together with him. Rather than that being something he only just thought of at the spur of the moment, he might have been plotting to reconnect with his son for years. (It seems implied that about three years has passed in-universe between the movies, just like between their releases)

---

Legends fans will tell me this was probably addressed in the novelization or some other Legends product that came out in 1989, but I never noticed this until now, since it's the first time I'm watching the OT with the mindset that Anakin is the protagonist.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Dec 21, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Old observation, by why'd Lucas decide to call the Dark Force users "Sith" when that's an anagram for "Shit"? He didn't know in 1999 that spell-check programs across the world were going to fuck up discussion of his movies?



One of my favorites is people misspelling Palpatine as Palestine.


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## Xebec (Dec 21, 2019)

Here's a bunch of stuff not sure if it was posted




Boy it sure would have been cool if we got this in the movie or the trilogy in general


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## Pilaf (Dec 21, 2019)

Parallax said:


> it's so weird being invested in poverty tier lore man
> 
> this thread always delivers



Yeah. Imagine being a simp that would defend this trash and review it highly. I mean holy shit.


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## Pilaf (Dec 21, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Old observation, by why'd Lucas decide to call the Dark Force users "Sith" when that's an anagram for "Shit"? He didn't know in 1999 that spell-check programs across the world were going to fuck up discussion of his movies?



He first used "Sith" in the 1973 draft for Star Wars and it appeared in a deleted scene in A New Hope. He used the word because of its real world Celtic mythical origins. He was a student of Joseph Campbell and purposely used multiple real world references when constructing his galaxy and religious systems.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 21, 2019)




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## Lucaniel (Dec 21, 2019)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Everyone at the university talking about SW, almost all furious and generally disappointed that this and that and there turned out to be true --
> 
> I'm just chuckling. But I chime in, "Check out _The Mandolarian_. It'll help with the SW disappointment."
> 
> Except for that one Rian Johnson defender. Though now after watching RiseoS that he's finally waivering that RJ indeed crippled the sequel trilogy.


abrams crippled the sequel trilogy by nonsensically trying to retcon developments from TLJ in order to steer the narrative of this movie back to the only thing he knew how to do: aping the plot and motifs of previous installments. this is most obviously visible in the direct contradiction of "your parents were no-one" with the big 'reveal' in this movie


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## Pilaf (Dec 21, 2019)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


>




Why is it that people who never marry and end up with 20 cats are the ones obsessed with relationships and sexuality?


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## ~VK~ (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> Chinese audiences found many of the new actors to be unattractive, offensive to their cultural standards, etc


They really didn't fuck with finn. I wonder why...

I remember when the posters for TFA came out and the chinese version was edited so finn looked way smaller on them and less central 

Then again maybe i should cut the chinese some slack. Maybe they just sensed that disney was bullshitting us with their finn marketing and just changed the posters to reflect reality


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 21, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Why is it that people who never marry and end up with 20 cats are the ones obsessed with relationships and sexuality?



Eyy. I did not expect to be attacked when posting this.


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## Pilaf (Dec 21, 2019)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Eyy. I did not expect to be attacked when posting this.




Nothing personal, kid.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 21, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Nothing personal, kid.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 21, 2019)

@~VK~


*Spoiler*: __ 



Our boy Finn is force sensitive if it still matters to you.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> @~VK~
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


It doesn't. That ship sailed a long time ago.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 21, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> It doesn't. That ship sailed a long time ago.




*Spoiler*: __ 



He spends the whole movie wanting to confess his feelings to Rey only to get cucked by Kylo in the end .




I actually liked his development in the previous movie where he moved on from this.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bruh really? That's....entirely to be expected at this point. A last "fuck you" to finn.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 21, 2019)

They cucked finn narratively and now literally. It's fitting actually.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 




I'm slow obviously, but took me until now to register that the "Skywalker saga" is really over in the biological sense.

Anakin had only two children, Luke and Leia. 

Luke to our knowledge had no children. Leia to our knowledge had only Ben.

Ben is now dead with no children that we know of. Hence the "House of Skywalker" is likely extinct.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 21, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Inb4 kylo turned out to have impregnated rey through the force. And watch how finn will be the one to raise the baby. Because why not at this point.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 21, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



It continues in Rey..She's gonna make tons of "Skywalker" babies


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 21, 2019)

Luke having a secret child can always be written in...maybe it was broom boy


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Dec 21, 2019)

That sounds like the kind of plot development JJ would do.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

SPOILER 
TAGS!


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## Parallax (Dec 21, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> SPOILER
> TAGS!


chill bro


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## Parallax (Dec 21, 2019)

also like

if you havent seen star wars yet and wanna see it with no spoilers why would u be coming to this thread in the first place


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 21, 2019)

You don't need to spoiler tag theories either.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

Parallax said:


> also like
> 
> if you havent seen star wars yet and wanna see it with no spoilers why would u be coming to this thread in the first place



A person should be able to come into the thread to ask general questions like "is it any good?" without having everything spoiled for them.

People have jobs and families that might prevent them from seeing it opening day, so it's common courtesy to use the tags for at least the first week or so.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> You don't need to spoiler tag theories either.



If the theory is premised on a spoiler then the theory is also a second-degree spoiler.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 21, 2019)

There is so many ways to know if a movie is being received well..it shouldn't hinder on this thread. Spoilers has been passed around in this thread all week..I had no issues dodging them. 

I tend to wait until the end of the weekend to go spoiler free. It should be common sense that the people who seen it will have discussions on it by then.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

It's not like it's cripplingly difficult to use tags. If you click the + sign above the post window (next to the "media" film roll) there's an "insert spoiler" button. Just click that before each post and type away. You don't need to manually write [ spoiler ] [ / spoiler ] at the start and end of every post.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 21, 2019)

Reminds me of when people complained about spoiler tags in the game of thrones thread during the season 8 fiasco. Should anyone really care at this point?


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 21, 2019)

Holy Shit that salt


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 21, 2019)

Bunch of annoying bitches


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## Rukia (Dec 21, 2019)

@Vault no plagueis because the writers/studios were and are fucking cowards.


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## Vault (Dec 21, 2019)

Rukia said:


> @Vault no plagueis because the writers/studios were and are fucking cowards.


 I know dude


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## Vault (Dec 21, 2019)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Holy Shit that salt


Yoooo  the reactions hahahaha


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

>people actually thought Finn was going to do anything but run around screaming Rey and trying to keep Rose away

lol


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 21, 2019)

I'm actually glad the Skywalker story is finally over with.

I hope I never hear the words "Death Star" ever again.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 21, 2019)

The Skywalker storyline ended when they killed off Luke unceremoniously like a bitch.

Reactions: Like 4


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## ~VK~ (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> >people actually thought Finn was going to do anything but run around screaming Rey and trying to keep Rose away
> 
> lol


TLJ destroyed any hope of finn amounting to anything. He was a disappointment in TFA but TLJ  solidified him as an embarrasment and was relegated to running around with the other token character freeing space llamas and shit 

No one actually believed he'd get better treatment in this one.


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## Bluebeard (Dec 21, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I'm actually glad the Skywalker story is finally over with.
> 
> I hope I never hear the words "Death Star" ever again.




*Spoiler*: __ 



those were my exact feelings whenever it was revealed that Palpatine has an entire fleet of ships that all have planet destroying weapons. And also have a glaringly obvious weakness like the good old Death Star.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 21, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I wouldn't mind if the next villain is so strong that they themselves are called the Star Destroyer tho. It's a cool ass name.


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## TasteTheDifference (Dec 21, 2019)

Lol


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 21, 2019)




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## Xebec (Dec 21, 2019)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Holy Shit that salt


please tell me this more shit like this i've been reading people laughed when Ben ghosted Rey after he healed her

found one

*Spoiler*: __ 






YEAAAHHHHHHH-NOOOOOOOO


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 21, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> please tell me this more shit like this i've been reading people laughed when Ben ghosted Rey after he healed her
> 
> found one
> 
> ...



Pure Cringe. Both the reaction and the scene.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 21, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Force ghost Kylo masters force creation powers and impregnates Rey. . .
Just the type of fanfic tier writing the new trilogy would make real.


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## Chaos Hokage (Dec 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I SAW IT and... it wasn't that bad, even if... it sometimes was...
> 
> Whoever suggested that Palpatine's return would've gone down a lot smoother if it was revealed -- or even teased -- at the end of "The Last Jedi", they were 100% correct. Even though his introduction is pretty cool on its own, relying on a lot of creepy atmosphere, the opening title crawl's attempt to re-introduce him was awkward. I can't imagine what it will be like watching this 10 years from now, when people will have forgotten about the marketing campaign and all the trailers. New viewers will just be watching these films in order and suddenly, Palpatine is there, as if he never "left" in the first place.
> 
> ...



Good review!

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Dec 21, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> please tell me this more shit like this i've been reading people laughed when Ben ghosted Rey after he healed her
> 
> found one
> 
> ...



I don't know if that crowd would've pissed me off... or made the overall experience that much better.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 21, 2019)

Well it looks like "The Rise of Skywalker" has had a pretty solid opening and is set to gross 195,000,000 over the weekend. It should be noted that "The Last Jedi" grossed 200,000,000, but that was a big deal at the time. The question will ultimately be if the movie has legs, which... that's going to be an uphill battle. Nevertheless, I don't see any serious competition on the horizon. "1917" might do well and perhaps "Jumanji" will repeat history.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

TasteTheDifference said:


> Lol



It was still dumb. 

The amount of times people "die" and come back to life in this movie was really stupid.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 21, 2019)

Okay, so apparently in "James Cameron's Story of Science Fiction", Lucas describes his idea for the sequels --

"The heroes go into the "microbiotic world" and meet tiny creatures called Whills that feed off the Force, travel via midichlorians, use human beings as vessels, and they control the universe."

... wut?


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## Suigetsu (Dec 21, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> please tell me this more shit like this i've been reading people laughed when Ben ghosted Rey after he healed her
> 
> found one
> 
> ...


HAHAHAHAH
"I FUCKING HATE STARWAR!" HAHAHAH!
Must be fun to go with people like that to the cinema!


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## Suigetsu (Dec 21, 2019)

TasteTheDifference said:


> Lol


Healing and bringing people back from the dead are Sith oriented powers, face it sparky the palpatines won!
The emperor merged with Rei, making her the most powerful ever, she trashed the skywalkers and even kept the ranch.

On a side note, nottice how they refused to use creatures from the lucas era. What a shit show.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Okay, so apparently in "James Cameron's Story of Science Fiction", Lucas describes his idea for the sequels --
> 
> "The heroes go into the "microbiotic world" and meet tiny creatures called Whills that feed off the Force, travel via midichlorians, use human beings as vessels, and they control the universe."
> 
> ... wut?



Sounds better than the Sequels already.



Suigetsu said:


> Healing and bringing people back from the dead are Sith oriented powers, face it sparky the palpatines won!



Of course he won. Because 
*Spoiler*: __ 



now we know that the Skywalkers were a family in Disney "canon" that have existed for less than a century and its heavily due to basically some 180 degree angel of incestuous bullshit which is how the Skywalkers were born from Palpatine whose apparently every Dark Lord of the Sith before him.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> Sounds better than the Sequels already.



It sounds like Osmosis Jones.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> It sounds like Osmosis Jones.



Which...is still better than the Sequel Trilogy.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> It sounds like Osmosis Jones.


Damn i haven't heard about osmosis jones in years. It's one of those cartoon movies i fondly remember but always forget the name of.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

I think they are still endanger of under-performing TLJ's opening weekend. Also overall score for TROS/Episode IX is already down 12 points from opening night.


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## Xebec (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> Sounds better than the Sequels already.


Yep and what the plan was for Luke was a lot better too

He also would have actually trained Rey(Kira as she was called then)

I just wish the man or people in the know would just tell us the full story of what he and Michael Arndt had planned for Ep7 and the trilogy


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 21, 2019)

Interesting that lucas also had luke as a hermit. I guess they were set on the obiwan parallel.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> Which...is still better than the Sequel Trilogy.



lol



Fang said:


> I think they are still endanger of under-performing TLJ's opening weekend. Also overall score for TROS/Episode IX is already down 12 points from opening night.



Yeah the estimates have it coming up a little short. 



Die-Hardman said:


> Yep and what the plan was for Luke was a lot better too
> 
> He also would have actually trained Rey(Kira as she was called then)
> 
> I just wish the man or people in the know would just tell us the full story of what he and Michael Arndt had planned for Ep7 and the trilogy




Whoa shit, would people still complain about character assassination? Every time I hear "draws influence from Col. Kurtz" or "is like "Col. Kurtz", the character is usually going to be a villain. Or at least a troubled antagonist. 

But I heard that Luke was going to be a hermit long before TFA's script was written.


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## TasteTheDifference (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> It was still dumb.
> 
> The amount of times people "die" and come back to life in this movie was really stupid.


Well yeah, I just thought it was funny ‘cause “sacred Jedi texts”


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

Also as of now, TROS has the lowest score on CinemaScore in Star Wars history at a B+.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> Also as of now, TROS has the lowest score on CinemaScore in Star Wars history at a B+.


Another funny thing I found on Metacritic last I checked was that both the Positive and Negative user scores were EVEN.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Dec 21, 2019)

Saw it.

Eh... I'm not even pissed because I went in with zero expectations. It's not a horrible film, like DCEU ones, it's just mediocre to the extreme. This film played every cliche of the franchise and the genre straight, it was as predictable as it could be and it couldn't avoid fewer risks if it tried.

I'm not mad at Disney for making it, but after watching Avengers IW and Endgame recently I'm like... is this the best Disney can do? Fucking Wreck It Ralf 2 was a way more fun and artistically pleasing film than this.

I mean Star Wars has never been the most ground-breaking thing in terms of plot but I'd rather get something like the prequel movies again which looked like theu were trying new things. The only film in this trilogy that tried to innovate was Ep. 8, and it did very sloppily. Now ep. 9 feels like it was written by someone who was afraid to mess up, not who wanted to create something great.

Rey sucks. Ben is good, though his plot was solved in the laziest way possible. Finn is good, though he is wasted in this franchise. Poe is a character I've seen 30 times before. The rest of the cast is walking fan-service.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Dec 21, 2019)

I mean even ep. 7 felt like it was trying harder to be different than this tbh.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> It was still dumb.
> 
> The amount of times people "die" and come back to life in this movie was really stupid.



Even Goku and his friends cringed.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> I mean even ep. 7 felt like it was trying harder to be different than this tbh.



How? Episode 7 does nothing but completely mimic Episode 4 all over? The only difference between 7 and 9 is that 9 doesn't just try to emulate 6 from the OT but copy Dark Empire as well, from the graphic novel series in the old canon.



Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Even Goku and his friends cringed.



Wouldn't doubt it. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Legitimately rolled my eyes several times when Chewie is seemingly blown up on the ship by Rey only to pop up a few moments later in the next scene or whatever. Cause apparently they needed THAT for some reason.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> How? Episode 7 does nothing but completely mimic Episode 4 all over? The only difference between 7 and 9 is that 9 doesn't just try to emulate 6 from the OT but copy Dark Empire as well, from the graphic novel series in the old canon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess it tried to be... eh, I can't think of the right word at the moment. I did like how Kylo Ren is introduced as a Darth Vader wannabe, only for it to be revealed that he indeed wants to be Darth Vader, which stems from some sort of inferiority complex. I also like the idea of one of the main characters being a storm trooper. In fact, I liked how TFA draws attention to how there are people underneath those Storm Trooper masks. The best new character was easily that random storm trooper who yells "TRAITOR!", drops his f@cking gun and takes on a light saber with his weapon. 

No one is going to call TFA original, but I think emulating the old formula is what the franchise needed at that point and it worked, considering its box office gross. But that same format was not going to work with Episode 9, as the brand had been so overexposed that its nostalgia value had worn off. I think people would rather see the franchise move forward than remind us of the past.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> How? Episode 7 does nothing but completely mimic Episode 4 all over? The only difference between 7 and 9 is that 9 doesn't just try to emulate 6 from the OT but copy Dark Empire as well, from the graphic novel series in the old canon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



That was a lame bait-and-switch, but quite frankly, I'll take that over Chewie dying in a f@cking game of 'tug of war'.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> but I think emulating the old formula is what the franchise needed at that point and it worked, considering its box office gross. But that same format was not going to work with Episode 9, as the brand had been so overexposed that its nostalgia value had worn off. I think people would rather see the franchise move forward than remind us of the past.



I'll simply say it this way: Disney has proven playing it 'safe' is just as sure a way to gain temporary success and long term failure and the Sequel Trilogy vindicates that belief to a lot of people's eyes.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 21, 2019)

*(AFP) Jedi mind tricks don’t work on China.*

While _Star Wars_ fans from around the world waited in line for days to catch _The Rise of Skywalker_, the sci-fi series has struggled to woo film-goers in the increasingly important Chinese market.

Special previews of the long-awaited _Star Wars_ film in Beijing this week drew just a handful of fans.

Chen Tao is a rare superfan in a country where Friday’s opening day presales were just 12 million yuan (US$1.7 million), Xinhua news agency said, a fraction of the 218 million yuan taken recently on release by a Chinese-made crime drama, according to state broadcaster CCTV.

The 35-year-old Shanghai resident only became curious about the space saga by accident after stumbling across a pre-installed _Star Wars_ video game on his first computer.

Chen now runs one of China’s biggest online _Star Wars_ fan groups, debating lightsabre physics on the online message board Zhihu and managing a Twitter-like Weibo account with 30,000 followers.

He loves the _Star Wars_ world for its vast scale and rich detail that fans can piece together through movies, books and games.

“Its world is like a jigsaw puzzle … which feels very magical to me, and inspires a desire to explore this universe,” he said.

But Chen and his fellow fans are rare in China, where cinema-goers flock instead to see Marvel superheroes and domestic films.

_The Last Jedi_ ranked number 47 at the box office in China in 2018, far behind Marvel’s superhero film _Avengers: Infinity War_ at number six, according to Box Office Mojo.

Since buying _Star Wars_ studio Lucasfilm in 2012, Disney has stepped up efforts to gain fans in the world’s fastest-growing movie market.

In October, Disney and Tencent-owned e-book company China Literature announced they would be publishing the first-ever _Star Wars_ novel written specifically for Chinese audiences featuring “Chinese-style expression”.

“We will introduce interpersonal relations and other concepts from Chinese custom into _Star Wars_,” a China Literature representative said, without providing further details.

The made-for-China _Star Wars_ novel will have to overcome significant obstacles.

A Beijing bar hosted a screening on Tuesday of previous _Star Wars_ films ahead of Friday’s China release – but the special room was mostly empty.

The indifference could be explained by the fact that Chinese audiences were introduced to the series in 1999 with the prequel _Episode 1 – The Phantom Menace_ – a disappointment to original fans and panned by critics.

“When _Star Wars_ was released worldwide in 1977 it was a real film revolution,” said Steffi Noel, an analyst from Shanghai-based market research firm Daxue Consulting.

“Each new episode of _Star Wars_ is linked to a craze, a nostalgia,” Noel said.

But most Chinese viewers never formed this nostalgic bond with the movies.

In 1977, as foreign audiences were introduced to George Lucas’ Skywalker saga, China had just emerged from the chaotic Cultural Revolution and had little access to Western popular culture.

The three original films were only finally shown at a Shanghai film festival in 2015.

By the time Chinese audiences were introduced to the franchise, “the technology seemed old”, Fan Yunxin, from a Beijing-based science fiction reading group, said.

“Space opera isn’t really something Chinese people related to,” Fan said, adding while she liked the films, she did not know of any “hardcore” fans.

Alex Hu, a 24-year-old science fiction fan, said he was unimpressed with the visual effects.

“I would say a lot of fight scenes in _Star Wars_ are similar,” he said.

Chen said Chinese sci-fi fans tended to prefer “hard” science fiction that focused on scientific theory and had high demands for a story’s logical consistency, but _Star Wars_ was more like a “Roman empire tale that had been moved into space”.

When he first watched one of the films, he was amazed by how casually alien and human characters coexisted in the _Star Wars_ universe, something he had never encountered before in a science fiction film.

Shanghai-based analyst Noel said Disney would need to rebrand _Star Wars_ to sell the franchise in China.

“What they need to sell them now is a new story,” she said.

“It’s not enough to include Chinese-style drawings or Chinese architecture.”


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## MartialHorror (Dec 21, 2019)

Fang said:


> I'll simply say it this way: Disney has proven playing it 'safe' is just as sure a way to gain temporary success and long term failure and the Sequel Trilogy vindicates that belief to a lot of people's eyes.



Just out of curiosity, do you think a successful trilogy could've been built around "The Force Awakens" or do you think its foundations were too shaky?


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, do you think a successful trilogy could've been built around "The Force Awakens" or do you think its foundations were too shaky?



I would say if JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson, and Kathleen Kennedy weren't involved they might be able to. JJ can not actually establish any sort of coherent mystery box or tell a plot ending worth a damn, Rian not being around...well we know that is an incalculable boon and net positive because TROS is legitimately trying to act like TLJ didn't exist and bridging events between TFA to it. If TLJ didn't happen, and we had Palpatine's return establish in someway, we could've had a more satisfactory ending with the build up.

So I don't know but I think those three principle people need to be gone for a successful Sequel Trilogy to go down.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 21, 2019)

This has to be a surreal weekend for Rian Johnson. "Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker" isn't doing too well among fans and critics, with many blaming "The Last Jedi" for causing so many problems. On the other, "Knives Out" is overperforming and getting him some of his best reviews yet. 

Kind of reminds me of that time Paul Walker had "Running Scared", which got good reviews, flop the same week that his... family friendly dog movie whose name I can't remember, but everyone hated, open #1 at the box office. Do you celebrate? Or drown your sorrows? It must be a strange feeling.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 22, 2019)

Like many of said over and over, they literally had legends to draw inspiration to instead of this hot garbage they are dishing out. 


Maybe someone need to buy LucasFilm from Disney, they are just using it as a cash grab at this point


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Dec 22, 2019)

The amount of fake deaths in this film was really ridiculous.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Dec 22, 2019)

Huey Freeman said:


> Like many of said over and over, they literally had legends to draw inspiration to instead of this hot garbage they are dishing out.
> 
> 
> Maybe someone need to buy LucasFilm from Disney, they are just using it as a cash grab at this point



I wonder if anyone else can afford it, lol.


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## Deana (Dec 22, 2019)

Disney putting Finn at the back of the bus to appease the Chinese market worked out great in the long run!!!! 

That was so messed up of Disney.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 22, 2019)

Deana said:


> Disney putting Finn at the back of the bus to appease the Chinese market worked out great in the long run!!!!
> 
> That was so messed up of Disney.


Finn would have been more interesting as a real protagonist, we all know that much at least.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Dec 22, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Okay, so apparently in "James Cameron's Story of Science Fiction", Lucas describes his idea for the sequels --
> 
> "The heroes go into the "microbiotic world" and meet tiny creatures called Whills that feed off the Force, travel via midichlorians, use human beings as vessels, and they control the universe."
> 
> ... wut?



It worked in Clone Wars. Yoda had an entire story arc with them and they were badass and taught him how to commune with Qui-Gonn and learn to become a Force Ghost. Also, the Whills go way back to the first novelization of Star Wars. At least it's established lore, and it's from the original creator who _gives a shit about the saga_.


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## Mider T (Dec 22, 2019)

Deana said:


> Disney putting Finn at the back of the bus to appease the Chinese market worked out great in the long run!!!!
> 
> That was so messed up of Disney.


Finn getting cucked that hard made him unsuitable as a true protagonist.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 22, 2019)

Bannai said:


> Disney Reportedly Wants Kathleen Kennedy Gone After Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker Backlash


Oh there had already been hints they wanted her out even as far back as Solo flopping so it would not surprise me if she is gone after this. Would only help the brand at this point to get her out along with the rest of the blowhards on her team who fucked up the franchise to the point it became a money sink.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 22, 2019)

Bannai said:


> Disney Reportedly Wants Kathleen Kennedy Gone After Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker Backlash


KK out
Favreau + Feige in


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 22, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> KK out
> Favreau + Feige in


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## Nekochako (Dec 22, 2019)

Saw it. If you go into this movie without too high expectations i bet you will enjoy it.


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## Swarmy (Dec 22, 2019)

Nekochako said:


> Saw it. If you go into this movie without too high expectations i bet you will enjoy it.


I'm the spy!


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 22, 2019)




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## Swarmy (Dec 22, 2019)




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## Abcdjdj1234 (Dec 22, 2019)

I finally saw it in whatever the costliest theater experience there is sound effects 4D 5D... Idk someone gave me tickets 


Never seen the first two movies of the trilogies , but this didn't seem that bad but nowhere in comparison to the originals


Very predictible to the point where I could predict X theme will play here at this moment  

Predictible diaogues too 

Rey is meh, literally keeps getting powerups and convinineces out of nowhere, and may I say even worse than boruto is  
*Spoiler*: __ 



and 2892910 things keep happening convinently one after the other to push forward the plot, lots of things make no sense and dumb  ( like searching for the sith triangle thing and forgot to look on endor itself) , looks like they wanted to rush out and finish this shitshow





Hated Kylo Ren in the beginning but he kinda got shafted in the end to a love fodder , should've defeated Palpatine with rey or himself or something


Poe and the other guy were more fun than the rey - kylo-Palpatine shitshow and I liked how everyone came to help in the end, I'm a sucker for these avengers assemble scenes


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## Abcdjdj1234 (Dec 22, 2019)

Also WTF is up with rey suddenly being paralyzed and going off on her own or just going out of the action mentally while physically being there like an absolute retard  it happened like so many times



And the force... Literally oh I feel the force.. There is this feeling which compels everyone to do good things and shit . Oh the force 

*Spoiler*: __ 



BTW since when did force have healing powers, regen, and genjutsu and whatnot? I don't follow the extended verse so Idk, and is the emperor supposed to be that powerful? And why would all the siths follow him? They were pretty much their own people AFAIK


And reylo  wtf is this joint kamui thing they have together where they can instantly teleport objects from on places to another


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## egressmadara (Dec 22, 2019)

lol just saw this

"Dead I would like you to be as well"

"Death is a concept invented by the Jedi"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anyway looks like the final box office gross will fall well below The Last Jedi.


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## Swarmy (Dec 22, 2019)

egressmadara said:


> "Death is a concept invented by the Jedi"


That's true though


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 22, 2019)

Worst thing about this trilogy that's not related to how they decimated the story/lore of the franchise. Is how they wasted Adam Driver. Dude can act, instead they gave him a shitty Sasuke arc.


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2019)

More or less confirmed at this point now:

- The Rise of Skywalker/Episode 9 finishes its opening box office weekend gross domestically at around $170-175 million USD
- This is the lowest opening for any Star Wars film in the Sequel Trilogy domestically
- In comparison: TFA opened around $250 million and TLJ around $220 million domestically their first weekends debuting
- And comparatively wise this is an almost 20% drop from TLJ to TROS

So that means if the second and third week drop offs are as bad or worse than what happened with TLJ, it might actually struggle to hit a billion let alone trying to surpass TLJ's 1.3 billion worldwide life time gross.

Not a good sign for Disney. And a very bad one for Kathleen Kennedy and JJ Abrams.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 22, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


>


SW x MCU crossover in 10 years

Reactions: Like 1


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 22, 2019)

Fang said:


> "The desecration of Star Wars: A Omnibus Anthology by Kathleen Kennedy."



Ha.

Episode IX: "The Result of No Planning"


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 22, 2019)

Fang said:


> More or less confirmed at this point now:
> 
> - The Rise of Skywalker/Episode 9 finishes its opening box office weekend gross domestically at around $170-175 million USD
> - This is the lowest opening for any Star Wars film in the Sequel Trilogy domestically
> ...


Just damn even I never thought it would get that bad.


But than what else can I say but


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Dec 22, 2019)

So is Darth Maul in this? Finally sat through Solo and he was teased at the end. Alive. If him and Palpatine are still kicking after their apparent demises, then the whole Star Wars rougues gallery should be back too. General Grevious would be great. Always loved him. And Count Dooku. He definitely is alive. It was just a decapitation after all. Just cg Christopher Lee's face in a fishbowl like Futurama and you're good. I always used to laugh at people who said Bubba Fett survived getting eaten alive. Now I feel dumb cause of course you can survive that.

Point is, if you're gonna be dumb and not have people be dead when they are killed, then you better go all the way with it.



Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Worst thing about this trilogy that's not related to how they decimated the story/lore of the franchise. Is how they wasted Adam Driver. Dude can act, instead they gave him a shitty Sasuke arc.



Wasted Gwendolyn Christie too.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2019)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Ha.
> 
> Episode IX: "The Result of No Planning"



Funniest part is the guy who leaked all the rumors and spoilers from 4-5 months ago got everything right, is implied to be an insider/employee in Lucas Films and also told us the George Lucas edit of TROS/9 for redoing acts 2 and 3 of the movie did way better with audiences compared to JJ's original version, or his second one or Iger's own version.

They really have no idea what they are doing.


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## Pilaf (Dec 22, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> Yep



I mention the awesomeness of the Clone Wars, so "yep" is the only accurate response, yes.


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## Xebec (Dec 22, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I mention the awesomeness of the Clone Wars, so "yep" is the only accurate response, yes.


Will Lucas did have the Whills thought of along with Midi-chlorians and Sith people act like he made them all up just for the prequels

His ST would have bought Whills into the story for real



Fang said:


> Funniest part is the guy who leaked all the rumors and spoilers from 4-5 months ago got everything right, is implied to be an insider/employee in Lucas Films and also told us the George Lucas edit of TROS/9 for redoing acts 2 and 3 of the movie did way better with audiences compared to JJ's original version, or his second one or Iger's own version.
> 
> 
> They really have no idea what they are doing.



Is there anywhere to read about this Lucas cut?


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> Will Lucas did have the Whills thought of along with Midi-chlorians and Sith people act like he made them all up just for the prequels
> 
> His ST would have bought Whills into the story for real
> 
> ...



We just have Doomcock's video where the leaks with everything confirmed has him saying his source talked about that Lucas' versions of redoing Acts II and III of 9 did much better than JJ's/Kennedy's, hence why Iger ordered the reshooting and script changes and the months of production changes. You can probably find it on YouTube.


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## Mider T (Dec 22, 2019)




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## hcheng02 (Dec 22, 2019)

Fang said:


> Funniest part is the guy who leaked all the rumors and spoilers from 4-5 months ago got everything right, is implied to be an insider/employee in Lucas Films and also told us the George Lucas edit of TROS/9 for redoing acts 2 and 3 of the movie did way better with audiences compared to JJ's original version, or his second one or Iger's own version.
> 
> They really have no idea what they are doing.



So did they ultimately use Lucas's version or JJ Abrams' version in this movie?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 22, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> So did they ultimately use Lucas's version or JJ Abrams' version in this movie?



According to Midnight's Edge, it was a compromise cut and no one was particularly happy with it.


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## Xebec (Dec 22, 2019)

Snyder Cut or Lucas Cut?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 22, 2019)

I can't really imagine the Lucas cut being THAT much different than what we got. The Snyder cut probably was, considering the few things we've heard about it. Also, I highly doubt the Snyder cut will ever be released, as I doubt they ever finished the effects and I can't see the studio wanting to throw more money at a movie that already cost them. The Lucas cut might be releasable, if they tested it. 

But his rough cut of the original "Star Wars" was a disaster, so I can't imagine we're talking about any kind of masterpiece here, although I'd love to hear the differences.


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## Pilaf (Dec 22, 2019)

Here's the thing some of you don't seem to get - those of us defending GL now aren't doing so because think his movie would have been _good_. I'm not personally delusional. I don't trust the man's film making abilities one bit. I understand how the OT worked in spite of him, not because. But it would have been _honest_. It would have been made for a completely different reason. He wouldn't have used the footage of Carrie and shoe horn it in, for one, I don't believe. He's not that tacky. Carrie was a friend of his, not a commodity to be milked from beyond the grave.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 22, 2019)

Am I the only one that thought Palpatine's life stealing powers was lame? 


*Spoiler*: __ 





Obviously they didn't want to repeat Jedi, but him electrocuting Luke was effectively brutal. Even when Snoke was doing it to Rey, it had a lot of the same impact. Something about those lightening powers are cool. I don't really know what would've been better, as a light saber duel would've looked strange and wouldn't have made sense and lightening would've been redundant. 

Part of me thinks it would've been more interesting if Palpatine straight up possessed Rey and then she fought a redeemed Kylo. But even that wouldn't really make sense. Or maybe they can use something new with the force. People will bitch -- and I think complaining about the healing abilities is silly because the force has never really made sense, but... they're going to bitch anyway. Why not at least swing for the stars?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 22, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Here's the thing some of you don't seem to get - those of us defending GL now aren't doing so because think his movie would have been _good_. I'm not personally delusional. I don't trust the man's film making abilities one bit. I understand how the OT worked in spite of him, not because. But it would have been _honest_. It would have been made for a completely different reason. He wouldn't have used the footage of Carrie and shoe horn it in, for one, I don't believe. He's not that tacky. Carrie was a friend of his, not a commodity to be milked from beyond the grave.



Actually, this is an interesting point. I didn't mind them borrowing unused footage, as I feel like her absence would've been distracting, but didn't Disney initially say that they wouldn't CGI her?


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## dr_shadow (Dec 22, 2019)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Worst thing about this trilogy that's not related to how they decimated the story/lore of the franchise. Is how they wasted Adam Driver. Dude can act, instead they gave him a shitty Sasuke arc.



He even kind of has the same hairstyle as Sasuke.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 22, 2019)

You know what's one little annoying detail about Rey that adds to her being a Mary Sue? The fact that she doesn't really take any meaningful damage. Yeah, she gets mind probed by Snoke and seemingly fatally wounded here, but there's nothing concrete and visceral about the damage she takes. Luke and Anakin get limbs cut off, with the former getting electrocuted to shit and Anakin suffering immolation. It's a testament to Rey's lack of adversity that no injury really alters her physical appearance.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 22, 2019)

And yet they didn't hesitate at all to slice finn's fucking spine open.

Maybe it was to symbolise his character's overall spineless nature.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 22, 2019)

I saw this film, tonight, and it was definitely better than _The Last Jedi._ I see that my two predictions came true:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Luke did appear as a force ghost, and Rey did not truly turn to the dark side, she was merely having a vision of herself having done so.

Hux being a spy for the resistance definitely was an "asspull," since it clearly had not been planned by the writers before this film, and C-3P0 not being able to translate the writing on the dagger without losing his memory felt very forced and unnecessary, and then R2-D2 restoring his memory destroyed the emotion of that sacrifice.

Rey was not Luke's daughter, as many viewers predicted, but she was also not Obi-Wan's granddaughter, as some other predicted; she was actually _Palpatine's_ granddaughter, which was an interesting twist, but it simply did not have the same impact that Darth Vader being Luke's father did.

On the subject of Palpatine, it never was explained how he returned to life, but I shall presume that he discovered the secret to immortality that Plagueis was unable to achieve, and Ian McDiarmid was as excellent as always in the role. However, if he returned to life, before, could he theoretically do it, again?

It is very awesome that the force can now be used to teleport objects, so I wonder if it can also teleport organic matter?

Kylo Ren was much better in this film than he was in the previous films; he actually felt like a menacing villain in the beginning, but I liked his path to redemption; I will admit that I was not certain if he could redeem himself after everything that he did, but I am glad that he was not a complete copy of Jacen Solo, who never redeemed himself. Hopefully, this does not make Vader's redemption any less special, since the original trilogy heavily implied that returning from the dark side was nearly impossible to do.

It seems that Finn is mildly force sensitive, after all, given his ability to sense Rey at crucial moments.

This is the first time since the acquisition of Lucasfilm by Disney that a planet from the original six films was mentioned or appeared. which is significant.

It was great to see Lando, again, and I also am glad that Maz gave the medallion to Chewbacca, as that was a very emotionally-fulfilling moment.

We never did learn how Maz found Luke's first lightsaber, nor what happened to his second one, so I suppose that those mysteries shall remain unsolved.

I am glad that everything ended well, so I wonder if there shall be any further _Star Wars_ films after this; if there are, I really hope that Lucasfilm waits at least five years before they make any more. Overall, I did enjoy this film, but I doubt that I shall watch any of the sequels again, in the near future.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 22, 2019)

I don't think i'll ever be capable to stop shit talking finn


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## Kuromaku (Dec 23, 2019)

At the end of the day, the sequel trilogy simply didn't need to exist. Technically, neither did the prequels, but even if the execution fell short, at least Lucas tried to do something with them, and the movies, while not great, at least had their moments. Meanwhile, the sequels failed to really take meaningful risks or advance film production methods, with the final results being bad to mediocre and unmemorable movies even more disposable than anything out of the MCU.

There, I just summed up the Disney movies compared to the prequels in three sentences.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Dec 23, 2019)

The more I think about Finn, the more I think Kevin Hart could have made him work.
Or atleast he would have made him more watchable, given the direction of his character.


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## Saishin (Dec 23, 2019)

Saw it, average movie quite enjoyable but not amazing,it doesn't deliver any emotion,pretty cold film and tbh I didn't get surprised about Rey's revelation, the only good thing was Palpatine v Rey but even there the fight could be better, there are situations that don't make sense like the origin of the huge fleet of the resistance, where it comes from? in the end the movie could have been done much better that's for sure,all this stuff is a missed opportunity to make an excellent movie and an awesome new trilogy, Disney really failed.

Score

RoS 6/10
New trilogy 5/10

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atem (Dec 23, 2019)

None of it.

Horrible. I want my money back, and I pirated it.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Dec 23, 2019)

Fang said:


> More or less confirmed at this point now:
> 
> - The Rise of Skywalker/Episode 9 finishes its opening box office weekend gross domestically at around $170-175 million USD
> - This is the lowest opening for any Star Wars film in the Sequel Trilogy domestically
> ...



"Hey DC I see you are having a lot of fun destroying your franchise I wanna try that too!

I can't destroy MCU though, I need that to eat.

Oh... I have an idea! Brb."


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## Esdese (Dec 23, 2019)

Fang said:


> Funniest part is the guy who leaked all the rumors and spoilers from 4-5 months ago got everything right, is implied to be an insider/employee in Lucas Films and also told us the George Lucas edit of TROS/9 for redoing acts 2 and 3 of the movie did way better with audiences compared to JJ's original version, or his second one or Iger's own version.
> 
> They really have no idea what they are doing.



Is there anyway for us to know what was in the George Lucas edited version? And how was it shown to audiences?  Did he mean screenings within the company, or a select group?


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## Mider T (Dec 23, 2019)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I saw this film, tonight, and it was definitely better than _The Last Jedi._ I see that my two predictions came true: Luke did appear as a force ghost, and Rey did not truly turn to the dark side, she was merely having a vision of herself having done so.
> 
> Hux being a spy for the resistance definitely was an "asspull," since it clearly had not been planned by the writers before this film, and C-3P0 not being able to translate the writing on the dagger without losing his memory felt very forced and unnecessary, and then R2-D2 restoring his memory destroyed the emotion of that sacrifice.
> 
> ...


Dude....SPOILERS!!!


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## Tony Lou (Dec 23, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



So... let me get this straight. Kylo Ren turned good because Rey did one good thing for him and he had a hallucination about his dad.

What is this, Naruto?


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## Xebec (Dec 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Dude....SPOILERS!!!


Why do we need tags at this point?


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## Mider T (Dec 23, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> Why do we need tags at this point?


The movie hasn't even been out a week yet.


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## Pilaf (Dec 23, 2019)

Bannai said:


> what was good about it




"Rey, kill meh!"

*Rey kills him*

"No don't really kill meh!"

*the end*


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## Pilaf (Dec 23, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Dec 23, 2019)

Esdese said:


> Is there anyway for us to know what was in the George Lucas edited version? And how was it shown to audiences?  Did he mean screenings within the company, or a select group?



Not yet, like I told @Die-Hardman we just know the same source whose an insider that leaked all the confirmed rumors is the same source that confirmed that Lucas's verison of acts 2 and 3 in 9 were better with overall test audiences then what JJ's original edit or second cut did.


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## Jake CENA (Dec 23, 2019)




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## Pilaf (Dec 23, 2019)

Anyone else feel Adam Driver was wasted on this script? Some of his acting chops shine through regardless but what a travesty of a character arc.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Dec 23, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Anyone else feel Adam Driver was wasted on this script? Some of his acting chops shine through regardless but what a travesty of a character arc.



Already said this 2-3 pages back. Absolute crime.


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## Fang (Dec 23, 2019)

Let's look at the penultimate gift JJ has given with TROS ending to Skywalker fans:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Rey returns to Tatooine, a planet of misery where the Skywalkers are from. Where Anakin was born into slavery with his mother, who was left behind after the Jedi freed him only return to find out a decade later she got married and was essentially kidnapped, abused and likely WORSE by Tusken Raiders and to have her die in his arms. Then fast forward years later,  Luke only leaves the planet after his adoptive foster parents, Owen and Beru, are torched alive and razed on their farmstead by Stormtroopers.

This same fucking Rey steals the name of the Skywalkers, buries Luke and Leia's  lightsabers...which she cannibalized to make her own, on the planet that was nothing but tragedy for all the generations of Skywalkers. And then takes over Luke's farm, his family name, his weapon, and even before that, takes away Anakin's role as the Chosen One by making his defeat of the Emperor worthless to restore the Force at the end of Episode 6. And even when traveling to Tatooine, she does it by taking the Falcon which was Han's legacy.




I honestly couldn't be more enraged. This is the "culmination" of three trilogies and the end of the Skywalker Saga in Star Wars. Thank you Disney.


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## Tony Lou (Dec 23, 2019)

Fang said:


> Let's look at the penultimate gift JJ has given with TROS ending to Skywalker fans:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Those lightsabers and ship will be legendary... when they're owned by a woman.
ck



Kuromaku said:


> At the end of the day, the sequel trilogy simply didn't need to exist. Technically, neither did the prequels, but even if the execution fell short, at least Lucas tried to do something with them, and the movies, while not great, at least had their moments. Meanwhile, the sequels failed to really take meaningful risks or advance film production methods, with the final results being bad to mediocre and unmemorable movies even more disposable than anything out of the MCU.
> 
> There, I just summed up the Disney movies compared to the prequels in three sentences.



I've always believed that if a series is no longer written by the original author, it ceases to be canon. I don't care if he gave them his okay to do it.


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## Ebisu's Shades (Dec 23, 2019)

Fang said:


> Let's look at the penultimate gift JJ has given with TROS ending to Skywalker fans:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




LOL Maybe Palps actually the winner.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Fang said:


> Let's look at the penultimate gift JJ has given with TROS ending to Skywalker fans:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Eh..

Rey didn't take anything that wasn't given to her. I'm pretty sure she buried the sabers where Luke told her to (otherwise how did she know the exact location of his home?) Tragedy doesn't necessarily change where you've came from .


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## Pilaf (Dec 23, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Bitch buried Anakin's weapon in literal sand. It's course and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.



And speaking of which, why bury those Lightsabers? Those things are priceless and irreplaceable. Whatever happened to "I won't be the last Jedi." You plan on training new Jedi, Rey? Like, I dunno, broom boy? Be a real shame if he didn't have a fucking lightsaber to train with because you buried the last two in the universe in the fucking sand because spooky ghosts told you to.


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## Pilaf (Dec 23, 2019)

Luiz said:


> I've always believed that if a series is no longer written by the original author, it ceases to be canon. I don't care if he gave them his okay to do it.




Those are Doomcock's Laws of Canon, a big part of the driving philosophical force of the Fandom Menace.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aren't you supposed to build your own tho? I'm pretty sure using other people's sabers isn't usually a thing.


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## Pilaf (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Aren't you supposed to build your own tho? I'm pretty sure using other people's sabers isn't usually a thing.




You use your master's lightsaber or a training saber from the temple until you build your own, which isn't usually until you reach Knighthood. Depending on the era of Jedi in question, of course.

Either way, the two in question would have come in handy for helping train future generations. You ideally wanna keep a few spares around in case yours is lost/destroyed anyway. These things are rare and become rarer as time goes by. They go for millions of credits on the black market and many forgeries exist, although a lightsaber made by a non Sith or Jedi tends to be dangerous to use because the Force plays a role in the construction of the weapon.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Yeah, I don't think the rules and customs apply anymore. It's implied Leia built her own saber from the start.


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## Vault (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah, I don't think the rules and customs apply anymore. It's implied Leia built her own saber from the start.



That is like the final test from being a padawan to a jedi Knight 

No more Canon


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## Pilaf (Dec 23, 2019)

Vault said:


> That is like the final test from being a padawan to a jedi Knight
> 
> No more Canon




Yeah. As illustrated in your set. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for a new trainee to undertake something so dangerous and high level. None whatsoever. That's like learning to run before you crawl.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Yeah. As illustrated in your set. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for a new trainee to undertake something so dangerous and high level. None whatsoever. That's like learning to run before you crawl.


Something Luke Skywalker had to do..

Oh and Rey Skywalker too

And pretty much any jedi post order 66 since customs are now dead  and Yoda pretty much said it's all bullshit anyway.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 23, 2019)

Rey Palpatine 


the Emperors blood lives

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vault (Dec 23, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Rey Palpatine
> 
> 
> the Emperors blood lives



Why are people calling this the Skywalker saga though. Its clearly the Palpatine saga now


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## Pilaf (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Something Luke Skywalker had to do..
> 
> Oh and Rey Skywalker too
> 
> And pretty much any jedi post order 66 since customs are now dead  and Yoda pretty much said it's all bullshit anyway.




Luke constructed his Jedi weapon between ESB and ROTJ, at the point in his training roughly equivalent to graduating from Padawan to Knighthood, which reinforces my point. Yoda lampshades it in the movie by telling him that he has nothing left to teach him. 

You don't make one until you've been trained not because of bullshit customs but because _making one is dangerous_. It can explode and_ literally fucking kill you_ if you don't focus the crystal just right. That's why it's considered a trial.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Luke constructed his Jedi weapon between ESB and ROTJ, at the point in his training roughly equivalent to graduating from Padawan to Knighthood, which reinforces my point. Yoda lampshades it in the movie by telling him that he has nothing left to teach him.
> 
> You don't make one until you've been trained not because of bullshit customs but because _making one is dangerous_. It can explode and_ literally fucking kill you_ if you don't focus the crystal just right. That's why it's considered a trial.


Nah man, that's the old way of thinking. These new kids are far more advanced.  Padawans fight Sith lords now .


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## LordPerucho (Dec 23, 2019)

What Ive learned watching this thing i sthat Revenge of the Sith is the most underrated movie in Star Wars history.


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## LordPerucho (Dec 23, 2019)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Worst thing about this trilogy that's not related to how they decimated the story/lore of the franchise. Is how they wasted Adam Driver. Dude can act, instead they gave him a shitty Sasuke arc.



Well if there is ever a Naruto Live action series then gotta cast Adam Driver as a must...


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## MartialHorror (Dec 23, 2019)

How come Daisy Ridley hasn't done more things? I know a lot of people don't like Rey, but I rarely hear Ridley's acting get criticized. It can't just be Star Wars typecasting, as Oscar Isaac and Adam Driver have been doing very well and John Boyega's appeared in a handful of projects I've heard about, even headlining a few. The only thing I've seen Daisy Ridley do since Star Wars began was "Murder on the Orient Express". 

Am I just missing all of her projects or is this deliberate on her part?


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## MShadows (Dec 23, 2019)

JJ Abrams must be a huge Naruto fan because that Ben Uchiha redemption was taken straight out of Naruto. 

Tbh, out of the new characters Kylo Ren was the best, and that's mainly due to Adam Driver's portrayal. 

Big brain Abrams however had to kill the last living Skywalker and have who's arguably the most hated and lame character out of the sequels steal that name. 

Yeah, the sequels are the GT to SW's Dragon Ball.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 23, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Yeah, the sequels are the Super to SW's Dragon Ball.


FFYI


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## MShadows (Dec 23, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> FFYI


I personally disagree, but the sequels are still shit


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 23, 2019)

MShadows said:


> I personally disagree, but the sequels are still shit


On the latter we agree.


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## MShadows (Dec 23, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> On the latter we agree.


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## Xebec (Dec 23, 2019)

Marc is going fucking ham he hates it


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Aren't you supposed to build your own tho? I'm pretty sure using other people's sabers isn't usually a thing.





~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah, I don't think the rules and customs apply anymore. It's implied Leia built her own saber from the start.



_The Clone Wars_ episodes, "The Gathering", "A Test of Strength", and "Bound for Rescue" show the process by which Younglings travel to Ilum to find an individual Kyber crystal that resonates with them, and then build their own light-sabers.



That's the canon established by _Clone Wars_.

So, the arguments about it being "dangerous" and "high-level" and meant to represent the transition from Padawan to knight-hood? Completely invalidated by the story establishing that building your own light-saber is the rite of passage from _Youngling _to _Padawan. _

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

MShadows said:


> JJ Abrams must be a huge Naruto fan because that Ben Uchiha redemption was taken straight out of Naruto.


I don't see it


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 23, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> How come Daisy Ridley hasn't done more things? I know a lot of people don't like Rey, but I rarely hear Ridley's acting get criticized. It can't just be Star Wars typecasting, as Oscar Isaac and Adam Driver have been doing very well and John Boyega's appeared in a handful of projects I've heard about, even headlining a few. The only thing I've seen Daisy Ridley do since Star Wars began was "Murder on the Orient Express".
> 
> Am I just missing all of her projects or is this deliberate on her part?



Yeah..I watched the Orient express, Ridley was the worst part of it. There's a reason why one of the only five or so roles on her resume pre SW was a fucking dead body in a procedural drama...namely she is as talented as she is unremarkable looking.


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## Xebec (Dec 23, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> _The Clone Wars_ episodes, "The Gathering", "A Test of Strength", and "Bound for Rescue" show the process by which Younglings travel to Ilum to find an individual Kyber crystal that resonates with them, and then build their own light-sabers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same thing happens in Fallen Order, CONTINUITY what a concept!


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> _The Clone Wars_ episodes, "The Gathering", "A Test of Strength", and "Bound for Rescue" show the process by which Younglings travel to Ilum to find an individual Kyber crystal that resonates with them, and then build their own light-sabers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@Pilaf


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Maybe some instruction is required though.



She does have the ancient Jedi text. Since she learned Force healing from them, it's likely they'd also carry instructions on building light-sabers.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> She does have the ancient Jedi text. Since she learned Force healing from them, it's likely they'd also carry instructions on building light-sabers.


Those books were burned in Last Jedi. She likely learned healing from Leia.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Those books were burned in Last Jedi. She likely learned healing from Leia.



At the end of "The Last Jedi", you can see a brief glimpse of them in a compartment in the Millennium Falcon.


*Spoiler*: __ 



One of the texts, the _Rammahgon, _contained the information on Wayfinders and Luke's notes about them.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Dude....SPOILERS!!!



We do not need spoiler tags in this thread; outside of this thread, I agree that we need them, but anyone who enters this thread should be prepared for spoilers.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 23, 2019)

baby Yoda will save Star Wars


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 23, 2019)

@Sennin of Hardwork Do you think it'd be possible to add the Spoiler prefix to this thread, just in case there are people browsing around who haven't seen the film yet?


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## Fang (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Something Luke Skywalker had to do..
> 
> Oh and Rey Skywalker too
> 
> And pretty much any jedi post order 66 since customs are now dead  and Yoda pretty much said it's all bullshit anyway.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 23, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> @Sennin of Hardwork Do you think it'd be possible to add the Spoiler prefix to this thread, just in case there are people browsing around who haven't seen the film yet?



_That_ is a solution that actually makes sense, in my mind.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Doesn't prove low level Jedi can't construct one. Someone already showed younglings learning to construct their own.


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## Fang (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Doesn't prove low level Jedi can't construct one. Someone already showed younglings learning to construct their own.



TCW shows younglings construct their own training lightsabers. Also every single Jedi makes their own lightsaber regardless of their "level' so not sure what you are on about.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Fang said:


> TCW shows younglings construct their own training lightsabers. Also every single Jedi makes their own lightsaber regardless of their "level' so not sure what you are on about.


I'm on the point of the conversation you've jumped into.


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## Fang (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I'm on the point of the conversation you've jumped into.



>Vader: "I see you constructed a new lightsaber. Now your training is complete."
>"Doesn't PRovE Low LEvel JEDI CAN constRUCT one"

????


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Fang said:


> >Vader: "I see you constructed a new lightsaber. Now your training is complete."
> >"Doesn't PRovE Low LEvel JEDI CAN constRUCT one"
> 
> ????


Vader's words says nothing about the skill level required to construct one.

Finn discovered he was force sensitive sometime before this film. You're telling me he can not study some instructions and construct his own?


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## Fang (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Vader's words says nothing about the skill level required to construct one.
> 
> Finn discovered he was force sensitive sometime before this film. You're telling me he can not study some instructions and construct his own?



I'm saying you were wrong about the original tangent about why the lightsaber construction is the final test of an aspiring Jedi to become a Jedi Knight. And I don't really give two shits about Finn anyways. His supposed Force sensitivity was just a token bone thrown to his character being completely useless in al three films.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Fang said:


> I'm saying you were wrong about the original tangent about why the lightsaber construction is the final test of an aspiring Jedi to become a Jedi Knight. And I don't really give two shits about Finn anyways. His supposed Force sensitivity was just a token bone thrown to his character being completely useless in al three films.


Huh? Pilaf's point is that lightsaber construction is difficult.  That's pretty much all I'm focused on.

Oh and that rankings such as "Jedi Knight"  doesn't matter anymore.


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## Fang (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Huh? Pilaf's point is that lightsaber construction is difficult.  That's pretty much all I'm focused on.
> 
> Oh and that rankings such as "Jedi Knight"  doesn't matter anymore.



Saying things "don't matter" doesn't really mean they don't in actuality. And no, I interjected because you made the claim prior to what Pilaf and Vault confirmed that it was the final test of an aspiring Jedi's final trial to Knighthood/mastery with the scene in ROTJ of Luke and Vader's meeting..

And I'll throw it back at you: Rey can say she's a "Skywalker" all she wants, its never going to be accepted. Plot contrivances aside, there's a reason there's a way to becoming a proper Jedi.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

Fang said:


> Saying things "don't matter" doesn't really mean they don't in actuality. And no, I interjected because you made the claim prior to what Pilaf and Vault confirmed that it was the final test of an aspiring Jedi's final trial to Knighthood/mastery with the scene in ROTJ of Luke and Vader's meeting..
> 
> And I'll throw it back at you: Rey can say she's a "Skywalker" all she wants, its never going to be accepted. Plot contrivances aside, there's a reason there's a way to becoming a proper Jedi.



So how does one becomes a jedi knight with no jedi system in place?  Who is gonna Knight them? Rey? Does she even want to continue Jedi customs?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 23, 2019)

I thought the light saber fights in "Rise of Skywalker" were pretty good, but one of the later ones has this strange part where Kylo Ren turns around, kind of ducks, protects his back with his light saber and after an awkward delay, his opponent deliberately slashes at the light saber. Did anyone else notice that or am I nitpicking? 

If we're still worried about spoilers 
*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm referring to Kylo Ren Vs the Knights of Ren.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> So how does one becomes a jedi knight with no jedi system in place?  Who is gonna Knight them? Rey? Does she even want to continue Jedi customs?


What the hell does any of this have to do with the ones clearly trained under such a system like Luke and every other Jedi in the Prequel era?


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> What the hell does any of this have to do with the ones clearly trained under such a system like Luke and every other Jedi in the Prequel era?


Jesus man..I'm saying for probably the 5th time. The jedi system is destroyed therefore lightsaber construction no longer means "one's training is complete"..it's no longer customary.

This all started cause Pilaf said Rey would be unable to train broom boy.

He said it showed you reach Knighthood and is extremely difficult to construct..I said since the system is destroyed...what now?

I dont care what lightsaber construction _used to mean_..Sidious destroyed all of that.


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## MShadows (Dec 23, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> @Sennin of Hardwork Do you think it'd be possible to add the Spoiler prefix to this thread, just in case there are people browsing around who haven't seen the film yet?


It's pretty obvious that there would be spoilers in a thread for a movie that has already been released


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## epyoncloud (Dec 23, 2019)

Where is Darth Plagueis


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Jesus man..I'm saying for probably the 5th time. The jedi system is destroyed therefore lightsaber construction no longer means "one's training is complete"..it's no longer customary.


It had nothing to do with Custom. If you fucked up making one it could get you killed, therefore constructing it properly means you meet the very basic level which with or without customs would at least equate you to the level of a padawan during the Old Jedi Order.


~Gesy~ said:


> I dont care what lightsaber construction _used to mean_..Sidious destroyed all of that.


Except he didn't because you can't "destroy" having the skills needed just to construct something. If you successfully built your lightsaber it means you have now gotten the grasps on using the fucking force. That simple.


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## epyoncloud (Dec 23, 2019)

I come to watch this man.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 23, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> you meet the very basic level which with or without customs would at least equate you to the level of a padawan


So where does Jedi knights come in here?


NostalgiaFan said:


> If you successfully built your lightsaber it means you have now gotten the grasps on using the fucking force. That simple.


I thought so...


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## Mider T (Dec 23, 2019)

DemonDragonJ said:


> We do not need spoiler tags in this thread; outside of this thread, I agree that we need them, but anyone who enters this thread should be prepared for spoilers.


No that's never how this has worked.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 23, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> So where does Jedi knights come in here?


Why the hell are you asking me? Being at the level of a Jedi Knight to make a lightsaber was never my argument. 


~Gesy~ said:


> I thought so...


Not really since even an average Padawan has more training than Rey did so the shit she does is still nonsensical.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 24, 2019)

*Chinese opening weekend*

*1. Ip Man 4 ($46,092,871)*
2. Sheep without a Shepherd ($23,204,410)
3. Only Cloud Knows ($9,286,463)
*4. Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker ($8,674,274)*
5. Almost a Comedy ($6,252,722)


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## U mad bro (Dec 24, 2019)

I saw it liked it way way way better than last Jedi. Not the greatest movie though. Not even top 5 Star Wars film lol. For one had too much missing info.  Not only that Leia shit has been dumb. They could have had a way more consistent story using Luke in Leia’s role instead. You couldn’t even have any strong dialogue using her. But other than that it was an ok flick to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Dec 24, 2019)

So why can't Palpatine tank his own attack? It deformed him in episode 3 and it killed him here


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 24, 2019)

Ultra Instinct Vegito said:


> So why can't Palpatine tank his own attack? It deformed him in episode 3 and it killed him here


hes not a tank ..


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## MartialHorror (Dec 24, 2019)

lol, I just watched a video on "Rise of Skywalker" and he pointed out that Rey's backstory rips off 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Harry Potter




I never thought about that and now I can't not think about it.

Edit: He also brings up that... we may have another example of accidental in cest.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Apparently "Revenge of the Sith" implies that Anakin wasn't a 'virgin birth', but that Palpatine's speech about how the force can be used to create life implies he did exactly that, which one of the comics even confirms. I know those are mostly no longer canon, but... I guess accidental i*c*st runs in the family, lol. I actually do like the idea of Palpatine being Anakin's force Daddy a lot more than him being space Jesus.




Edit: WTF IS WITH THIS CENSORSHIP!?


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## Kuromaku (Dec 24, 2019)

My concern now is that Disney not only won't learn anything from the experience, but that they will only learn the wrong lessons. If down the line they continue oversaturating audiences with _Star Wars_ and releasing films each year or every other year (hint hint Disney, why not wait three?) and keep up with their crappy and seemingly politicized storytelling (why not keep themes timeless instead of topical like a good fairy tale should?), then I guess we can bury the franchise.

Good news is that we can always treat the sequel trilogy like _Caddyshack 2_, every _Terminator _after the second one, every _Highlander _after the first, and every other crappy sequel we'd like to pretend doesn't exist.

Also, MH, didn't you notice that Rey's leitmotif is basically something straight out of _Harry Potter_?


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## MartialHorror (Dec 24, 2019)

Here is an interesting video --


This actually makes me wonder why the haters are treating J.J Abrams as public enemy #1, considering how 'if this is true', Abrams and Lucas were united one one of the cuts and were both snubbed in favor of what Igor wanted.

Interestingly, it appears that the original villain was a character from the "Clone Wars" TV show and Matt Smith played him, even filming his scenes before being completely removed and replaced with Palpatine. It's suggested that Palpatine would have some sort of role, but not be actually 'alive'. If that makes the movie more cohesive, then cool, but I personally don't like the idea of relying on the TV show. Most people have not watched it and like I've said too many times, "Solo" tying into Maul's revival in the TV show confused my theater.


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## Pilaf (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Huh? Pilaf's point is that lightsaber construction is difficult.  That's pretty much all I'm focused on.
> 
> Oh and that rankings such as "Jedi Knight"  doesn't matter anymore.




Fully powered lightsabers, yes. The training sabers the Padawans made don't put out the same amount of energy. A Jedi Knight's weapon _is not the same_. It's like comparing Han's pistol to Chewie's bowcaster.

See this scene here, with the Younglings?


Those are training sabers. If they make a mistake and knock one against the blindfolded Youngling next to them, it'll cause minor burns at best.


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## Pilaf (Dec 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Here is an interesting video --
> 
> 
> This actually makes me wonder why the haters are treating J.J Abrams as public enemy #1, considering how 'if this is true', Abrams and Lucas were united one one of the cuts and were both snubbed in favor of what Igor wanted.
> ...




Well, of course they'd do this. Of course they'd snub TCW in favor of some rehashed Dark Horse comic plotline. smh






Ultra Instinct Vegito said:


> So why can't Palpatine tank his own attack? It deformed him in episode 3 and it killed him here



It killed him in ROTJ, too. It killed him three. THREE TIMES. AH AH AH

​


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Well, of course they'd do this. Of course they'd snub TCW in favor of some rehashed Dark Horse comic plotline. smh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah. But we also seen Luke do this with his father's saber a day after learning what a jedi even was.

I get it tho. You need some experience in the force to make one. I just think you exaggerated how much experience required.


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## Pilaf (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah. But we also seen Luke do this with his father's saber a day after learning what a jedi even was.
> 
> I get it tho. You need some experience in the force to make one. I just think you exaggerated how much experience required.




The thing is everyone gains experience at different levels. Luke's training was somewhat accelerated, likely through a combination of genetics, being chosen, and being trained by two of the best Jedi Knights in recent history. This was unorthodox training, however, and not based on the old Jedi, who put trainees through a series of trials to safely advance them through the ranks. Luke pretty much had to fill in the blanks and do a lot of shit out of order through necessity. Interestingly, in the old EU, he applied the lessons he learned on his personal journey when training the new Jedi. Kind of personalized their journey. Building one's own saber continued to be a rite of passage, though. 


Also, lol


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## dr_shadow (Dec 24, 2019)

@MartialHorror

Reaction to Ip Man taking in 6x the opening weekend gross of Star Wars?


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Here is an interesting video --
> 
> 
> This actually makes me wonder why the haters are treating J.J Abrams as public enemy #1, considering how 'if this is true', Abrams and Lucas were united one one of the cuts and were both snubbed in favor of what Igor wanted.
> ...



You think it possible they might have been bringing in darth maul as a jump off from solo, or is that not possible because why cast matt smith if it's darth maul?


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## Pilaf (Dec 24, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> You think it possible they might have been bringing in darth maul as a jump off from solo, or is that not possible because why cast matt smith if it's darth maul?




If they wanted to shit all over their own canon yet again, sure. 

Pictured here - the canonical death of Maul.

Note that he's killed by Obi-Wan, placing this duel after Solo but before ANH. He couldn't possibly be alive in TROS.


Then again, Disney decided to completely ignore Operation Cinder from Battlefront II so clearly their "more consistent lore" after throwing the EU in the garbage was one of their many lies. So sure, why not. Just bring back everyone dead. Nothing means anything. There's no consequences!


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Dec 24, 2019)

Disney ruined this by making The Rise of Skywalker...and killing the last Skywalker off because he fell in love with Rey. Lolz


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Dec 24, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> and keep up with their crappy and seemingly politicized storytelling



Quick nitpick but Star Wars has always been political. Heck, the Prequel trilogy might be star Wars at its most topical.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 24, 2019)

ep3: Lightning > Palpatine
ep6: Lightning > Palpatine
ep9: Lightning > Palpatine
 some things never change


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## dr_shadow (Dec 24, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Quick nitpick but Star Wars has always been political. Heck, the Prequel trilogy might be star Wars at its most topical.



In the Phantom Menace we learned that everything was started by TAXES!

If the government didn't steal our money Palpatine would have never come to power!


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## Fang (Dec 24, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> In the Phantom Menace we learned that everything was started by TAXES!
> 
> If the government didn't steal our money Palpatine would have never come to power!



Sorta. The entire premise for Palpatine's rise to Supreme Chancellor and the transformation of that post into him becoming the Emperor was due to how corrupt, self-serving, and incompetent the Senate and the Republic at large had become. The connective theme here is by connection, the Jedi were also more self-serving, politically involved, and not the idealized warrior-monks Obi-Wan spoke of with fondness to Luke decades latter. 

There has always been political overtones in Star Wars but the Disney Star Wars films have been unapologeticlly blunt about what they think is (((bad))).


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## Skaddix (Dec 24, 2019)

Meh I think people overrate it. As far as I can tell KK wanted a self insert in Rey and loves Adam Driver.

Beyond that Finn, Poe and Rose are hardly shining examples of diversity. More regressive then anything else if you ask me. A Black Comic Relief Janitor? A sexist ex drug dealer Latino Flyboy? A frumpy nerdish Asian shrew?

I mean Come on from Lando to Mace to Finn...SMFH.

The greatest sin is probably no fucking plan for a trilogy...smfh.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 24, 2019)

*Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Allowed Toxic Fandom to Win*


Deflecting blame. Of course. Just like Tim Miller is doing for his _Terminator Dark Fate_ bomb.

HOWEVER -- I will agree on the point of Kelly Marie Tran. She didn't deserve the social media harassment for doing her job as an actor, and it's not like she's the plot-writer of her own character.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

I think  the characters would've been a little better if the story wasn't derailed. 

Hell Palpatine wouldn't even be the villain here. Not saying I'm letting JJ of the hook..he still could've written a better ending than this.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> *Funniest part is the guy who leaked all the rumors and spoilers from 4-5 months ago got everything right, is implied to be an insider/employee in Lucas Films and also told us the George Lucas edit of TROS/9 for redoing acts 2 and 3 of the movie did way better with audiences compared to JJ's original version, or his second one or Iger's own version.*
> 
> They really have no idea what they are doing.



For being the SW leaker, makes one wonder if fans ought to commend him.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I think  the characters would've been a little better if the story wasn't derailed.
> 
> Hell Palpatine wouldn't even be the villain here. Not saying I'm letting JJ of the hook..*he still could've written a better ending than this*.



Agreed. After all, we have countless EU stories to take example from.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

Comic Book Guy said:


> *Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Allowed Toxic Fandom to Win*
> 
> 
> Deflecting blame. Of course. Just like Tim Miller is doing for his _Terminator Dark Fate_ bomb.
> ...


I've seen it first hand. Some SW fans can be quite disgusting. 

The shit Brie Larson got was child's play compared to that Tran chick.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 24, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Quick nitpick but Star Wars has always been political. Heck, the Prequel trilogy might be star Wars at its most topical.



There's a difference between timeless political observations (the crises that lead to the transition from democracy to tyranny, for example) and half-assed attempts at being culturally relevant (e.g. poorly handled 'strong' female characters to capitalize on feminism being the big cultural thing, yet winding up living up to the worst stereotypes of badly written female characters in Rey and Holdo). Politics is a part of war, but in this franchise, it needs to be simple enough to understand, basic enough to avoid taking up more time than absolutely necessary, and timeless enough to avoid appearing quaint a decade from now. Compare the brief mentions of political developments in the original _Star Wars_ to the tedious material in the prequels.

That aside, bringing back Palpatine only serves to make Anakin's sacrifice pointless, rehashes old material, and finalizes the idea of the original trilogy being meaningless in hindsight. Had they wanted to bring back Palps in some shape or form for the sake of coherence (one overarching villain across all three trilogies), then follow up on the idea of legacies established in TFA. In this case, make it Palpatine's legacy that the heroes are fighting against, and maybe reveal that he had plans for after his death. I know they had droids with pre-recorded videos, but maybe reveal something like a holocron or AI that tries to continue where the original left off. You get to bring back Ian for some good hammy villainy while averting so many issues.


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## Skaddix (Dec 24, 2019)

Not sure how the total failure of the OT Characters and the Death of the Skywalkers is a win for the Fandom Menace.


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## Skaddix (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I've seen it first hand. Some SW fans can be quite disgusting.
> 
> The shit Brie Larson got was child's play compared to that Tran chick.



Indeed though unlike Tran, Brie got the last laugh. I am super curious to see if Wonder Woman can clear a billion this time. Imagine how bad DC is going to look if WW fails while Black Widow joins Captain Marvel in the Billion Dollar Club.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Indeed though unlike Tran, Brie got the last laugh. I am super curious to see if Wonder Woman can clear a billion this time. Imagine how bad DC is going to look if WW fails while Black Widow joins Captain Marvel in the Billion Dollar Club.


Some say WW was the best film of the DC universe. I think it'll make about the same .

I'd be surprised if BW crack a billion.


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## Fang (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I've seen it first hand. Some SW fans can be quite disgusting.
> 
> The shit Brie Larson got was child's play compared to that Tran chick.



>still believing Disney's psy-ops bullshit to try and deflect from TLJ and Solo both getting blasted by fans
>much less almost 2020 and still defending Brie "I have no acting talent" Larson

lmao




~Gesy~ said:


> I think  the characters would've been a little better if the story wasn't derailed.
> 
> Hell Palpatine wouldn't even be the villain here. Not saying I'm letting JJ of the hook..he still could've written a better ending than this.



There is no story in the Sequel Trilogy. Not a single film between the three feels connected to its predecessor, but 20 years from now people will still talk about how botched, incompetent, and utterly inane the "narrative" for the Sequel films were. Its an incoherent disjumbled mess that face-lifted quipes, one-liners, and other bits of dialogue and inane MCU style nonsense into the Star Wars universe. But that doesn't remove Jar-Jar Abrams from being at fault for TFA being a rehashed ANH or the fact he has historically never done anything with an ending well.


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## Skaddix (Dec 24, 2019)

I mean Brie does have an Oscar right? That said I don't think being the most talented actress in the world in terms of the Dramas that tend to win Oscars makes one the best choice to play a Superhero.

Dont really get the MCU comparisons...KF has plans within Plans. KK didn't plan shit.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> >still believing Disney's psy-ops bullshit to try and deflect from TLJ and Solo both getting blasted by fans
> >much less almost 2020 and still defending Brie "I have no acting talent" Larson
> 
> lmao


Not defending Brie. I'm simply voicing an opinion.  And I don't believe Disney sent a bunch of bots to flood Trans comments whenever she made a post on social media... hell people said crazy stuff about her in this thread!


Fang said:


> There is no story in the Sequel Trilogy. Not a single film between the three feels connected to its predecessor, but 20 years from now people will still talk about how botched, incompetent, and utterly inane the "narrative" for the Sequel films were. Its an incoherent disjumbled mess that face-lifted quipes, one-liners, and other bits of dialogue and inane MCU style nonsense into the Star Wars universe. But that doesn't remove Jar-Jar Abrams from being at fault for TFA being a rehashed ANH or the fact he has historically never done anything with an ending well.



You're pretty much saying what I said but with a harsher tone.


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## Fang (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Not defending Brie. I'm simply voicing an opinion.  And I don't believe Disney sent a bunch of bots to flood Trans comments whenever she made a post on social media... hell people said crazy stuff about her in this thread!



Right. Because that's not what I said, I said then and I'll repeat again now that its a magical coincidence that certainly didn't have that special timing right that as TLJ continued to get massacred at the box office by Jumanji and fan ratings were showing how much a piece of unfiltered shit that Episode 8 was all of a sudden out of the blue Kelly Tram is suddenly "attacked" by fans on social media. Or then have the article about this resurrected again as Solo bombs in the following May.

Disney has totally never engaged in viral marketing to defend itself.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 24, 2019)

Watching Return of the Jedi now, and TBH all the Ewok stuff in the second act is some Canto Bight level pointlessness.


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## Fang (Dec 24, 2019)

>imagine not liking Ewoks


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> Right. Because that's not what I said, I said then and I'll repeat again now that its a magical coincidence that certainly didn't have that special timing right that as TLJ continued to get massacred at the box office by Jumanji and fan ratings were showing how much a piece of unfiltered shit that Episode 8 was all of a sudden out of the blue Kelly Tram is suddenly "attacked" by fans on social media. Or then have the article about this resurrected again as Solo bombs in the following May.
> 
> Disney has totally never engaged in viral marketing to defend itself.


Oh ok. Disney certainly have the power to do what you claim and shove it to forefront. Doesn't necessarily change what occured to that woman though.

And it didn't change how people feel about these films.

Force Awakens made a bit over 2 billion dollars. They had momentum.  Last Jedi crippled this franchise and they haven't recovered since .


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## Fang (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Oh ok. Disney certainly have the power to do what you claim and shove it to forefront. Doesn't necessarily change what occured to that woman though.
> 
> And it didn't change how people feel about these films.
> 
> Force Awakens made a bit over 2 billion dollars. They had momentum.  Last Jedi crippled this franchise and they haven't recovered since .



Yes, TFA made over 2.2 billion dollars and its opening domestic weekend in NA it made $250 million.
And then, TLJ made barely 1.3 billion and barely crawled to $220 million in NA its opening weekend.
And then, Solo was a complete disaster and a black hole for Disney's coffers.
And now, TROS barely scratches to $175 million its opening weekend domestically and is in real danger of failing to even break a billion at this point.

You are right people feel these movies are bad, soulless, and the vindictive nature of justly angered fans who have seen the final act in the Sequel Trilogy essentially all but slap them in the face with Disney's dick saying "everything that happened before is pointless, everything that Anakin and Luke accomplished is worthless and Rey is the end all be all of everything" certainly has had no impact on why TLJ, Solo, and TROS are floundering.

And I wouldn't say TLJ crippled the franchise as much as Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson, and JJ Abrams have. TLJ was just the final nail in the coffin. CT and Arndtt were fired because they wanted to have Luke survive to Episode 9 and still be the primary main character.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Some SW fans can be quite disgusting.


nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans 

true then, true now


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

It'll be interesting to see  how well the future Rian Johnson movies do.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> It'll be interesting to see  how well the future Rian Johnson movies do.



He had a recent movie right? Knives out. So I guess we'll have an indication.


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## Fang (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> It'll be interesting to see  how well the future Rian Johnson movies do.



It won't be a Star Wars movie he'll be doing.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> It'll be interesting to see  how well the future Rian Johnson movies do.



Lightsabers Out.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> It won't be a Star Wars movie he'll be doing.


I'm reading he's helming the next trilogy.  It's gonna take place in the distant future most likely...away from any Skywalkers.


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## Skaddix (Dec 24, 2019)

That trilogy aint ever happening. Some directors aren't cut out to direct Blockbusters especially Blockbusters that fit in a pre-existing universe. 

They got Jon Favreau, Debroah Chow, Rick Famuyiwa who can direct some live actions movies when they get back around to it. And maybe Dave Filoni will be good enough for it after some more seasoning.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 24, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Watching Return of the Jedi now, and TBH all the Ewok stuff in the second act is some Canto Bight level pointlessness.


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## Fang (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I'm reading he's helming the next trilogy.  It's gonna take place in the distant future most likely...away from any Skywalkers.



Rian can always argue and waste countless amount of time and hours claiming he's going to get his Star Wars spin-off trilogy but considering D&D were "ultimately" unavailable to helm a future KOTOR spin-off movie (and we know it totally has to do with how much fans hated GOT seasons 7 and 8) and the idea that the man who as you put it: "crippled" Star Wars under Disney getting any more hands on Star Wars products is pretty funny.


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## Pilaf (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I think  the characters would've been a little better if the story wasn't derailed.
> 
> Hell Palpatine wouldn't even be the villain here. Not saying I'm letting JJ of the hook..he still could've written a better ending than this.




The characters are fine, on paper. I liked the idea of Finn, Poe and Ray in the details released coming up to TFA. 

The problem is the actors and characters are wasted in this trilogy. In the last movie we still don't feel as attached to them as we did to Luke, Han and Leia by the halfway point of A New Hope. 

And the last movie is the worst of all because it's like six stories crammed into the runtime of one. Characters hardly stop to breathe between fetch missions. They have no real meaningful interactions. Some of them barely have lines, and they ignored Rose altogether, even though this was their one and only chance to redeem her after TLJ. _The story group didn't give a shit about any of these characters, old or new.* Not even Rey. She's a prop, nothing more.*_


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## Pilaf (Dec 24, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Watching Return of the Jedi now, and TBH all the Ewok stuff in the second act is some Canto Bight level pointlessness.



As a guy who loves ROTJ and owns both Ewok spin off movies:


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## Skaddix (Dec 24, 2019)

KK contracts ends in 2021. The movies are on hiatus. Next person in charge at LF is going to strangle RJ's trilogy in the crib. There is no benefit to Disney and LF to bring back RJ. He split the fanbase and is not some great director of irreplaceable quality even if Knives Out gets some reward noms or even wins. Not that Knives Out translates to directing a Star Wars Trilogy. Blockbusters are about making bank in ticket sales and as George showed selling merchandise. Award noms and wins are nice but not the main point.


----------



## Mider T (Dec 24, 2019)

@DonutKid what do you think about SHINGAPORU cutting out the lesbian kiss when China didn't?


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## Xebec (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I've seen it first hand. Some SW fans can be quite disgusting.
> 
> The shit Brie Larson got was child's play compared to that Tran chick.


And what she got was child's play compared to what Ahmed and Jake got


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

Don't know who those people are..but I'll take your word for it


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## DonutKid (Dec 24, 2019)

Mider T said:


> @DonutKid what do you think about SHINGAPORU cutting out the lesbian kiss when China didn't?



Which movie? I don't watch Hollywood so...


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 24, 2019)

MShadows said:


> It's pretty obvious that there would be spoilers in a thread for a movie that has already been released



Do you see, @Mider T? A moderator agrees with me on this subject.



~Gesy~ said:


> Jesus man..I'm saying for probably the 5th time. The jedi system is destroyed therefore lightsaber construction no longer means "one's training is complete"..it's no longer customary.
> 
> This all started cause Pilaf said Rey would be unable to train broom boy.
> 
> ...



The fact that Palpatine destroyed the Jedi order does not mean that it cannot be rebuilt, which is what Luke did in the original expanded universe and what I hope that Rey eventually does in this new timeline, as well.



epyoncloud said:


> Where is Darth Plagueis



He is dead, and was never more important than being Palpatine's master (although the novel that focused on him was an excellent one, in my mind).


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## Saishin (Dec 24, 2019)

*'STAR WARS: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER' BOX OFFICE COLLAPSING*


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## Pilaf (Dec 24, 2019)




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## Catalyst75 (Dec 24, 2019)

@Saishin Yet it still at over $430 million dollars, before it has finished its first week in the box office.

But given Cosmic Book was one of the Comicsgate sites, I'm not surprised they're propagandizing about Star Wars already.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 24, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> $430 million dollars


peanuts


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 24, 2019)

its a total disaster

Star Wars is now the retarded black sheep of the Disney family compared to the Chad MCU and even the live-action remakes


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 24, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Of course my comment gets delated, let me repeat myself than
> 
> 
> Only a shill as blind as Catty would downplay ROS only now getting to 430 mill on Monday when previous movies already did more than that by Sunday.



Gotta love the preferential treatment certain members get, between that and the stupid false accusations about a fucking neg circle that existed only in one dudes mind...2019 is going to be known as the year the Staff lost all of its legitimacy.

Any way only 400 mil? When they're probably 350 in the hole ontop of the quarter bil they blew on the clusterfuck finish? And staring down the business end of an investigation for violating the Sherman act?

Damn Bob..December just hates you. I bet Igers grandkids wanted to watch Mickey's Christmas Carol and he had to run out of the room to hide his bitter sobs from the young'n


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## Mider T (Dec 24, 2019)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Do you see, @Mider T? A moderator agrees with me on this subject.


Is that supposed to mean something to me?  A moderator agreed with me too, doesn't make a difference.


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## Mider T (Dec 24, 2019)

DonutKid said:


> Which movie? I don't watch Hollywood so...


Watch Hollywood, best movies in the world.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 24, 2019)

I see some shilling here 
Did the mouse got extra change left in its bank account to spare


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## U mad bro (Dec 24, 2019)

The whole issue in my opinion is the second film. The whole entire series became incoherent when the director decided to basically shit on the series and kill off the already moving plot. So guess what the third film is no longer aligned and you have to come up with a bunch of bandaids. Like what was the point of Rose she held Zero relevance to the plot. Why keep Leia when the actor is dead. Nevermind the worthless general holding Poe back plot line. All three worthless plot lines derailed the main characters series journey.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 24, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> peanuts



Well, I've never been one for holding things to impossible standards. 

I love Star Wars as a franchise, but I've never treated it as something "sacred". For me, it's too soon to judge whether it is a "success" or "failure".



Claudio Swiss said:


> I see some shilling here
> Did the mouse got extra change left in its bank account to spare



I simply have a life that doesn't involve enjoying seeing things fails for the sake of empty self-gratification. 

Also, my own opinion of things, which I am free to state whenever I want.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 24, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Don't know who those people are..but I'll take your word for it



It's jar jar and kid anakin.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> It's jar jar and kid anakin.


I forgot about those two.  Hope this doesn't take years for her to overcome.. I don't think her role was iconic enough for her to be long remembered like those two .

What problems did fans have with kid anakin?


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## Vault (Dec 24, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> @Saishin Yet it still at over $430 million dollars, before it has finished its first week in the box office.
> 
> But given Cosmic Book was one of the Comicsgate sites, I'm not surprised they're propagandizing about Star Wars already.


Check the last 2 entries how much they had grossed in a similar period then talk. Smfh


~Gesy~ said:


> Don't know who those people are..but I'll take your word for it


Kid anakin was especially bad. The fandom can be pretty pathetic.


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## Rukia (Dec 24, 2019)

Outside of the original three movies.  I feel like Darth Maul has been the only thing that has kind of worked.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 24, 2019)

Rukia said:


> Outside of the original three movies.  I feel like Darth Maul has been the only thing that has kind of worked.



And Palpatine!

Everybody loves Palpatine. Never seen anyone criticise this character. Not in the prequels, and not in Rise of Skywalker.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skaddix (Dec 24, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> And Palpatine!
> 
> Everybody loves Palpatine. Never seen anyone criticise this character. Not in the prequels, and not in Rise of Skywalker.



I mean technically he was in the OT. We can say much the same for Kenobi if Palpatine gets the pass.


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## U mad bro (Dec 24, 2019)

Rukia said:


> Outside of the original three movies.  I feel like Darth Maul has been the only thing that has kind of worked.


Well the second trilogy introduced a shitload of content people love. Everybody but the movies themselves created great content with the second trilogy arc. I specifically mean then comics, novels, games and animated series. The movies are mediocre but the content spawned from it was dope


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

I appreciate the prequels for fleshing out the characters I probably wouldn't care much for otherwise .


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## Mider T (Dec 24, 2019)




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## MartialHorror (Dec 24, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> @MartialHorror
> 
> Reaction to Ip Man taking in 6x the opening weekend gross of Star Wars?



We all expected this, as no one gives a shit about Star Wars in China and Ip Man movies seem to be their equivalent of comic book movies right now. 



reiatsuflow said:


> You think it possible they might have been bringing in darth maul as a jump off from solo, or is that not possible because why cast matt smith if it's darth maul?



It wasn't Darth Maul. He was playing a villain whose name I didn't recognize.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 24, 2019)

Vault said:


> Check the last 2 entries how much they had grossed in a similar period then talk.



"Return of the Jedi" grossed lower than both "Empire" and "A New Hope" over its whole run. Does that mean it was a "failure"? No, it doesn't.

So, I'll wait and see how the film continues to fare during its run in theaters.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 24, 2019)

Ok, finally got to the end of ROTJ, and I'll admit Anakin's character arc over these six movies is pretty epic. 

I especially liked his "abused wife" love/hate relationship with Palpatine. I feel like what kept him firmly on the Dark Side was that the Emperor kind of became his only family after the death of Padme. But after he finds out about Luke being alive at some point between episodes IV and V, he discovers a new reason for living beyond just being the dark lord's choker-in-chief.

His love for Luke is all expressed in the context of the Dark Side, though. At first it's "I'll make Luke my apprentice and we'll overthrow Palpatine together!". Then it's downgraded to "I'll make Luke Palpatine's apprentice so he can survive the destruction of the Rebellion." All of Vader's actions in episodes V and VI are in some way about trying to keep Luke alive.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 24, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> "Return of the Jedi" grossed lower than both "Empire" and "A New Hope" over its whole run. Does that mean it was a "failure"? No, it doesn't.
> 
> So, I'll wait and see how the film continues to fare during its run in theaters.



To be fair, the circumstances were different. The budget was like 10% of its box office intake and there wasn't a 4 billion debt looming over them. I do agree that people still have a somewhat skewered version of 'failure' here. "The Last Jedi" might've dropped significantly over "The Force Awakens", but it still sold more than 2/3 prequels and "Rogue One". 

But with "Rise of Skywalker", it's more than just money. "Return of the Jedi" was intended to end the saga, so there wasn't as much riding on it. "Rise of Skywalker" succeeding or failing will determine the course of the franchise. It also doesn't help that once again, it's become a gossip nightmare and probably cost more than "The Last Jedi". 

If this doesn't cross a billion dollars, then it will show that the brand has been damaged. "Solo" could've been the anomaly because it had a lot of things working against it, but this is the flagship series. I think 1.5 billion would be a 'success', although they can probably save a little bit of face if they reach 1.3. It's not impossible that the film will have legs, as competition doesn't seem particularly hot and worse movies somehow performed beyond expectations internationally.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 24, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> Why are you such a shill?


Gotta get the checks


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## MartialHorror (Dec 24, 2019)

So apparently Snoke was "created" by Palpatine. That seems... odd... Snoke might've went out like a bitch, but he displayed an immense amount of force powers, based on how he casually tossed around Rey and Kylo Ren, as well as using abilities that were new (to the movies, anyway). Why does Palpatine need anyone else, if he can farm his own 'Sith Masters'? 

Is there a downside? Did Snoke know of his role in Palpatine's plans? Would Palpatine have killed him if he survived long enough to episode 9? Or if Snoke didn't know that Palpatine was alive, would he have tried to kill him? How long has Snoke been "alive"? 

Or was Snoke literally just a vessel for Palpatine's will and force capabilities? If that's the case, Palpatine may have simply let Kylo Ren "kill" Snoke, as he had served his purpose, but he also says "Snoke trained you well" -- suggesting Snoke is his own person. But Snoke seems way too powerful to have been 'created' between episode 6 and 7, yet if that's the case, then maybe Palpatine missed out on an opportunity there.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 24, 2019)

I wonder to what extent Star Wars is still carried by its original fans?

As someone born in 1989, I used to think that 1977 was basically High Antiquity. My reaction to tales of A New Hope being in theaters would be the same as Rey's "I thought the Jedi were a myth..."

But when I stop to think about it, if you were born in for example 1970 (like director and SW fan Kevin Smith), you could have seen A New Hope at age 7, The Phantom Menace at age 29, and The Force Awakens at age 45. The OG fans aren't actually that old, and still of economically active age, so it's not completely outside the realm of possibility that they're the ones propping up the franchise.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 24, 2019)

So every Disney movie moving forward will have your “on your left” moment now?


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> We all expected this, as no one gives a shit about Star Wars in China and Ip Man movies seem to be their equivalent of comic book movies right now.
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't Darth Maul. He was playing a villain whose name I didn't recognize.


Makes matters worst they literally put Fin on the back burner to appease Chinese market since you know they don’t like us colors as a main character


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## Kuromaku (Dec 24, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I wonder to what extent Star Wars is still carried by its original fans?
> 
> As someone born in 1989, I used to think that 1977 was basically High Antiquity. My reaction to tales of A New Hope being in theaters would be the same as Rey's "I thought the Jedi were a myth..."
> 
> But when I stop to think about it, if you were born in for example 1970 (like director and SW fan Kevin Smith), you could have seen A New Hope at age 7, The Phantom Menace at age 29, and The Force Awakens at age 45. The OG fans aren't actually that old, and still of economically active age, so it's not completely outside the realm of possibility that they're the ones propping up the franchise.



Probably quite a bit. The OT remains the unquestioned canon that holds it all together, which suggests that it's those who are nostalgic (i.e. older fans) that serve as the core. Disney's mistake was that after TFA, which sought to bring the core back by reminding them of what they liked about the series, they proceeded to screw things up with their PR response to TLJ. The film itself offered controversy, but Disney only made things worse, as they tried to draw in new audiences while alienating the old. It's like they didn't understand the value of the bird in the hand.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Dec 24, 2019)

Huey Freeman said:


> Makes matters worst they literally put Fin on the back burner to appease Chinese market since you know they don’t like us colors as a main character



I really do hope that's not the case. I feel like the problem with Finn as a character is that his arc completed in Episode 7, so episode 8 tried to fit in a new character arc that doesn't really make sense for his character and Episode 9 doesn't really give him a character arc. I like to think the filmmakers just didn't really know what to do with him and not that they just didn't want to upset the Chinese market. But you never know. 

Same  with Rose in a way. Some have interpreted the demotion of her character as Abrams giving in to the harassment that the actress received... although I'd argue it had more to do with the character being poorly received. Even Lucas knew to reduce Jar Jar Binks, even though he's apparently his personal favorite character (!!!). But even beyond that, "Rise of Skywalker" feels so cramped as it is, what else could they have done with her? There's just no time to do much with a smaller role when they can't even flesh out the bigger ones.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 24, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I really do hope that's not the case. I feel like the problem with Finn as a character is that his arc completed in Episode 7, so episode 8 tried to fit in a new character arc that doesn't really make sense for his character and Episode 9 doesn't really give him a character arc. I like to think the filmmakers just didn't really know what to do with him and not that they just didn't want to upset the Chinese market. But you never know.
> 
> Same  with Rose in a way. Some have interpreted the demotion of her character as Abrams giving in to the harassment that the actress received... although I'd argue it had more to do with the character being poorly received. Even Lucas knew to reduce Jar Jar Binks, even though he's apparently his personal favorite character (!!!). But even beyond that, "Rise of Skywalker" feels so cramped as it is, what else could they have done with her? There's just no time to do much with a smaller role when they can't even flesh out the bigger ones.



The trilogy failed because two different directors had two different plans for where it should go. This 3rd movie would've been completely different if JJ directed all 3. Snoke would still be alive for example.


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## Xebec (Dec 25, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> The trilogy failed because two different directors had two different plans for where it should go. This 3rd movie would've been completely different if JJ directed all 3. Snoke would still be alive for example.


And Luke.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 25, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I really do hope that's not the case. I feel like the problem with Finn as a character is that his arc completed in Episode 7, so episode 8 tried to fit in a new character arc that doesn't really make sense for his character and Episode 9 doesn't really give him a character arc.



I wouldn't say that. In Episode VII, Finn's main reason for going to Starkiller Base, and later fighting Kylo Ren, was to save and protect Rey. Before then, he wanted to run from the First Order, believing that they could not be defeated.  His character arc in Episode VIII was centered around him coming fully to the realization that he needs to fight against the First Order, rather than run from them. DJ's betrayal of him and Rose, showing him what the face of someone who's only out for themselves looks like, was crucial to his character growth. 

Episode IX continues this character development with the reveal that there were other Stormtroopers - Jannah and her company -  who defected from the First Order, and culminates in Finn and Jannah leading the ground assault that eventually destroyed the _Steadfast_. 

He started his journy as a Stormtrooper who deserted the First Order; his journey culminated in him becoming one of the key players in the destruction of the Final Order, leading others deserters like himself into the final battle. I would say that qualifies as a trilogy-spanning character arc for Finn.


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## makeoutparadise (Dec 25, 2019)

Saw it, imo better than last jedi, fun but not a perfect film.
You could feel them cramming stuff in and trying to be quick about things but it still felt a little long.

start of the movie doesn’t feel like a starwars movie. It also feels like JJ was Telling us;

This is Starwars you know the rules, no exposition or suspense. We’re gonna check a few things off the list. In a snap of my fingers small conflicts get resolved we aint got time for this shit


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## MShadows (Dec 25, 2019)

Watch this, much better than Fall of Skywalker


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## DonutKid (Dec 25, 2019)

Mider T said:


> @DonutKid what do you think about SHINGAPORU cutting out the lesbian kiss when China didn't?





Mider T said:


> Watch Hollywood, best movies in the world.



Anyway in many ways, Singaporeans are more socially conservative than mainland Chinese.

There's a Singaporean singer who ventured in China and he opened a concert in Singapore a few days ago. There's a kiss cam moment and I can't help but to think why are Singaporeans generally so shy as compared to the mainland Chinese. 

In China: 4:09

In Singapore: 2:30 

@mr_shadow


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## MartialHorror (Dec 25, 2019)

Anyone buying the claims that Finn was actually trying to tell Rey that he's force sensitive? 

While the movie does make it clear he is force sensitive, it seemed obvious that he was trying to tell her he was in love with her. When he tried or grew embarrassed over it, it's framed explicitly in that way. I just don't see how he'd be so awkward informing her and the others he's force sensitive, so it really feels like because his subplot had no pay-off, they're just attempting to 'fill that hole' with something else.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 25, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> Anyone buying the claims that Finn was actually trying to tell Rey that he's force sensitive?
> 
> While the movie does make it clear he is force sensitive, it seemed obvious that he was trying to tell her he was in love with her. When he tried or grew embarrassed over it, it's framed explicitly in that way. I just don't see how he'd be so awkward informing her and the others he's force sensitive, so it really feels like because his subplot had no pay-off, they're just attempting to 'fill that hole' with something else.


Not buying it. 

Not something that will go through your mind while sinking in sand.

They're just trying to save face


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## Pilaf (Dec 25, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> It wasn't Darth Maul. He was playing a villain whose name I didn't recognize.




The Son, from the Mortis arc of Clone Wars, which makes no sense because that character was redeemed. It would have made less sense than Palpatine. Of course him being the Son is just an unsubstantiated rumor but came from 
*Spoiler*: __ 



many of the same places that broke the news about zombie Palpatine and other plot points.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 25, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Not buying it.
> 
> Not something that will go through your mind while sinking in sand.
> 
> They're just trying to save face



Yeah, the exchange would be like this 

Finn: Rey, there's something I need to tell you.
Rey: What?
Finn: I'm... force sensitive.
Rey: ... Okay?

Just doesn't fit. 



Pilaf said:


> The Son, from the Mortis arc of Clone Wars, which makes no sense because that character was redeemed. It would have made less sense than Palpatine. Of course him being the Son is just an unsubstantiated rumor but came from
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



yeah you have to be wary of those outlets. I don't really trust Midnight's Edge, as despite claiming to be unbiased, they've clearly cashed in on the anti-SJW craze. Still, I do enjoy their works they've been right before. 

Were the test screenings ever proven to be true? Abrams claimed that the studio didn't hold any to prevent leaks seems legit and even though there were leaks anyway, "The Force Awakens" also had its content leaked and I don't believe that had any reported test screenings (correct me if I'm wrong). I've also heard conflicting reports about who did what cut. 

I don't know if I buy 'the lucas cut', as editing is a timely venture and I struggle envisioning Lucas most of the hours in a day with an editor for a story that he's never really liked in the first place -- when he can't even seem to muster the energy into making the stuff he wants to make. Being 'a consultant' is NOT the same as being a director. But it is known that he was brought on board to help in some way and he clearly wasn't happy if he stayed away from the premier, so there had to be something. I'm sure in subsequent months, a clearer picture will be painted.


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## Fang (Dec 25, 2019)

Catalyst75 said:


> "Return of the Jedi" grossed lower than both "Empire" and "A New Hope" over its whole run. Does that mean it was a "failure"? No, it doesn't.
> 
> So, I'll wait and see how the film continues to fare during its run in theaters.



>being this wrong

ROTJ made more domestically then TESB did by almost 40+ million in 1983. TESB barely managed $209 million. Also unlike Episode 4 and 5, 6 wasn't repeatedly looped in theaters in back to back years after release which played a major factor in it barely overall outgrossing ROTJ. You don't have a clue of what you are talking about and that's why you hide most users who crush your arguments on ignore:

>TFA opening weekend (domestic): $250 million
>TLJ opening weekend (domestic): $220 million
>TROS opening weekend (domestic): $175 million

Notice a pattern?


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## Mider T (Dec 25, 2019)

DonutKid said:


> Anyway in many ways, Singaporeans are more socially conservative than mainland Chinese.
> 
> There's a Singaporean singer who ventured in China and he opened a concert in Singapore a few days ago. There's a kiss cam moment and I can't help but to think why are Singaporeans generally so shy as compared to the mainland Chinese.
> 
> ...



Why are they so prudish? So lame.


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## DonutKid (Dec 25, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Why are they so prudish? So lame.



From my experience Singaporeans and Japanese, whose societies are more Westernized and open on the surface, is actually more socially conservative than the mainland Chinese which have strict censorship on sex and nudity on the screens.


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## Mider T (Dec 25, 2019)




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## Fang (Dec 25, 2019)

Fang said:


> >being this wrong
> 
> ROTJ made more domestically then TESB did by almost 40+ million in 1983. TESB barely managed $209 million. Also unlike Episode 4 and 5, 6 wasn't repeatedly looped in theaters in back to back years after release which played a major factor in it barely overall outgrossing ROTJ. You don't have a clue of what you are talking about and that's why you hide most users who crush your arguments on ignore:
> 
> ...



Also ANH specifically was _*re-released*_ in 1978 and had a very *long* rerun that made ANH into the monster at the box office it was yet it never really shattered any opening box office numbers unlike ROTJ on its original release.


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## Mider T (Dec 25, 2019)




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## U mad bro (Dec 26, 2019)

What I’ve noticed in the media seems to be a war between critics and the audience. The last Jedi had crazy critic review. But this movie seems to have war declared on it. Objectively this is a better movie. The audience even agrees. Yet the critics are determined to say otherwise. I’m not even a big fan of this movie. I keep getting random articles about JJ Abraham’s and critics hating him pop up


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Dec 26, 2019)

Starting from now you all can now talk about the movie without any need for spoiler tags.


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## Mider T (Dec 26, 2019)




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## dr_shadow (Dec 26, 2019)

Eventually we should do a poll on "who ruined Star Wars?"

Was it Rian Johnson? Or J.J. Abrams? Or even George Lucas himself?


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## Xebec (Dec 26, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Eventually we should do a poll on "who ruined Star Wars?"
> 
> Was it Rian Johnson? Or J.J. Abrams? Or even George Lucas himself?


Kennedy, JJ and Rian


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## dr_shadow (Dec 26, 2019)

Die-Hardman said:


> Kennedy, JJ and Rian



I didn't say it was multiple choice.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 26, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Eventually we should do a poll on "who ruined Star Wars?"
> 
> Was it Rian Johnson? Or J.J. Abrams? Or even George Lucas himself?


you mean "who ruined Star Wars more ?"


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## Xebec (Dec 26, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I didn't say it was multiple choice.


It was a collaborative effort


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Dec 26, 2019)

So is Palpatine the strongest sith lord?

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Dec 26, 2019)

Abrams might as well should’ve went full retard and have Palpatine say “*We *are Palpatine.”


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## Kuromaku (Dec 26, 2019)

I'm torn on the idea of Sith achieving a sort of immortality through the succession ritual. It preserves their knowledge and power, along with their identities (kinda), fitting with the desire to live forever and dominate while also being willing to be succeeded by superior successors. It also raises questions about why the Sith Lord masters aren't stronger since they're basically evil Avatars (or as per LoK, 'Dark Avatars'). It even serves to emphasize the Satanic nature of the Sith in general if the Sith Master is the embodiment of the Dark Side at its worst in all incarnations. At the same time, it's also kind of dumb.

Something I hate about the ending is that is how much it resembles what people think _Star Wars_ is versus what it actually is about. It's like something out of a cheesy shonen with power level bullshit when the original trilogy was about faith and goodness, with Luke prevailing not through martial superiority (in fact, such superiority was achieved by temporarily succumbing to the allure of the Dark Side), but through love and the belief that his father was a man worth saving, and with Vader proving himself the Chosen One not through a power level never achieved, but through rediscovering his inner goodness and sacrificing himself out of love (poetic given that this selfless act is juxtaposed with his damning himself in the first place through a selfish form of love). Now we got Rey deflecting Palpatine's lightning back into his face with two sabers while the deceased Jedi cheer her on (how does that work given the emphasis on how difficult it is to maintain your consciousness after death?).


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 26, 2019)

Mandalorian finale tomorrow


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)

Better SW content than TROS


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)

Ultra Instinct Vegito said:


> So is Palpatine the strongest sith lord?




No lol


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Dec 26, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> No lol




Who is the strongest ?


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)

Ultra Instinct Vegito said:


> Who is the strongest ?




Any of the ancient Sith Lords his new legions are named after in the visual dictionary, like Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Revan, Ajunta Pal etc. are as far above Palpatine as he is the three Jedi mooks he mowed down in ROTS. They accomplished much more in their lives and were much more powerful. They would have gutted Rey, Kylo and all their friends like a fish.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 26, 2019)

I also figured that Sidious was just the Sith Lord who happened to be alive in the generation the movies take place, but not necessarily the biggest or baddest ever.

But there's a tendency in fiction that the events we're shown have to be the most defining moment that ever happened in that world, rather than just a snapshot of one out of many tales that have happened in that universe.

Tolkien is a welcome exception, where Sauron is only_ kind of_ a cosmic entity.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 26, 2019)

Sidious is definitely the strongest


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Eventually we should do a poll on "who ruined Star Wars?"
> 
> Was it Rian Johnson? Or J.J. Abrams? Or even George Lucas himself?



It was Rian Johnson, JJ Abrams, and Kathleen Kennedy.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 26, 2019)

Per Rule of Two and Lucas, Sidious was the strongest and most evil. That others in the EU seemed more powerful was because of other writers wanting to make their OCs stand out.


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Per Rule of Two and Lucas, Sidious was the strongest and most evil. That others in the EU seemed more powerful was because of other writers wanting to make their OCs stand out.



Not even that. Because even with Sith Lords in the EU from the old canon like Bane, Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Caedus, Plagueis and even fucking Vitiate/Valkorion, Lucas Arts categorically always stated that Sidious was the most powerful Sith of all time and in all of history.


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## Kaaant (Dec 26, 2019)




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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

I've actually seen some support Rian's direction. I think fans/people are split on him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

Which is normal when you take major risk


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Sidious is definitely the strongest




He accomplishes less in his life than non-force-user tyrants like Mandalore the Ultimate did. In comparison, Palpatine sort of rules the galaxy but not really for 20 years, then gets killed twice. He talks a lot about how strong he is but he isn't shown to do anything, really. In comparison, in the comics and books about the Mandalorian crusades, we see the countless planets the conquered and controlled, and they themselves paled in comparison to beings like Exar Kun. Palpatine is absolute trash.


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Which is normal when you take major risk



I didn't like the way TLJ shat all over the plot hooks JJ set in Episode 7, but it was nutless of Disney to backpedal on it. In trying to please the TLJ detractors they sinned in a far greater fashion. I'd have respected episode 9 a LOT more as a piece of story telling if it actually chose to deal with the consequences of TLJ and how it changed the story/galaxy. Instead JJ pulled a "Holy smokes look it's the Emperor! And Luke's back to normal, and Rey is a Palpatine!" bullshit. It was nutless, essentially.


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I've actually seen some support Rian's direction. I think fans/people are split on him.



>same people who on twitter who think Finn and Rose are iconic characters

Yeah I guess 1 in a billion is a lot of support


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> >same people who on twitter who think Finn and Rose are iconic characters
> 
> Yeah I guess 1 in a billion is a lot of support


Well I can't find any polls but I think the gap is a little closer than that. 


Pilaf said:


> I didn't like the way TLJ shat all over the plot hooks JJ set in Episode 7, but it was nutless of Disney to backpedal on it. In trying to please the TLJ detractors they sinned in a far greater fashion. I'd have respected episode 9 a LOT more as a piece of story telling if it actually chose to deal with the consequences of TLJ and how it changed the story/galaxy. Instead JJ pulled a "Holy smokes look it's the Emperor! And Luke's back to normal, and Rey is a Palpatine!" bullshit. It was nutless, essentially.


Agree completely. Hopefully this is used as a learning experience that going backwards in a concluding chapter is dumb.

The story did not need a random Zombie Palpatine and  thousands of mini death stars..  we ended up not caring about the conflict at all..


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Well I can't find any polls but I think the gap is a little closer than that.



I think the resounding failure of 9 at the box office is pretty good evidence the gap is bigger than that.


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)

Honestly, it was cowardly of them. Like, putting Rose Tico in the background because of fan backlash and catering to that. It's like Jar Jar's treatment in the prequels. By ROTS he didn't have a speaking role. If they had any actual confidence in their story or characters they'd have given her something to do in this regardless. 

It would have helped more than anything if they had a story structure going in. Jesus Christ the lack of vision was retarded. This is a case study in not applying a single lesson learned with the MCU to a beloved franchise. Imagine what could have been if they'd have a consistent vision. Not necessarily George's scripts but some kind of consistent and honest vision. What an absolute taste of a franchise.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Honestly, it was cowardly of them. Like, putting Rose Tico in the background because of fan backlash and catering to that. It's like Jar Jar's treatment in the prequels. By ROTS he didn't have a speaking role. If they had any actual confidence in their story or characters they'd have given her something to do in this regardless.
> 
> It would have helped more than anything if they had a story structure going in. Jesus Christ the lack of vision was retarded. This is a case study in not applying a single lesson learned with the MCU to a beloved franchise. Imagine what could have been if they'd have a consistent vision. Not necessarily George's scripts but some kind of consistent and honest vision. What an absolute taste of a franchise.


Rose was Rian's creation correct? Do we know if the actress even wanted a bigger role? Understandable if she didnt.


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Honestly, it was cowardly of them. Like, putting Rose Tico in the background because of fan backlash and catering to that.



She was the most villified and hated character in TLJ, the most villified and hate Disney/Sequel Trilogy film. Why would they want to cater to her supposed "fans" by having her take up screen time when she was always irrelevant in the first place? TROS has fucking tons of issues and flaws but minimizing and reducing her to a glorified extra is not one of them.



> It's like Jar Jar's treatment in the prequels. By ROTS he didn't have a speaking role. If they had any actual confidence in their story or characters they'd have given her something to do in this regardless.



And part of the reason why ROTS is beloved above all the other Prequel films is partly due to the fact Jar-Jar is also reduced to essentially a background character which fans and critics largely and universally praised as a smart move on Lucas' part. Again not seeing an issue here.



> It would have helped more than anything if they had a story structure going in. Jesus Christ the lack of vision was retarded. This is a case study in not applying a single lesson learned with the MCU to a beloved franchise. Imagine what could have been if they'd have a consistent vision. Not necessarily George's scripts but some kind of consistent and honest vision. What an absolute taste of a franchise.



Of course that would've helped. But as we know, Disney had no fucking overarching plan or outline for continuity with the Sequel Trilogy movies, they winged it and let JJ and Rian both do their own thing which were completely narrative wise incompatible and contradictory to each other. So when you have the golden goose that any idiot with even the smallest amount of common sense would be able to keep milking as a cash cow and fail at even that, then it goes to show there was never any indication Lucas Films under Disney's aegis gave a shit about what they were doing.

And just for one part here as emphasis: Snoke was envisioned as a strange and other-wordly grotesque alien in TFA.  All of the promotional material for Episode 7 pushes the fact Snoke is an alien. In TLJ his design is radically changed to being a deformed human and in TROS he's revealed to be a dark side manifested/infused clone.

They don't care.


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## Jake CENA (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I've actually seen some support Rian's direction. I think fans/people are split on him.


 rian johnson should be banned from making any movies


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

Rian gave the characters more depth than JJ had. Kylo for example was at his best in Last Jedi. JJ just wants him to be a confused child and nothing more.

Gotta give credit where it's due.


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## Jake CENA (Dec 26, 2019)

kylo has always been a confused man child even in the last jedi


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> She was the most villified and hated character in TLJ, the most villified and hate Disney/Sequel Trilogy film. Why would they want to cater to her supposed "fans" by having her take up screen time when she was always irrelevant in the first place? TROS has fucking tons of issues and flaws but minimizing and reducing her to a glorified extra is not one of them.



Except it is in one critical way. _It shows how they don't even have the balls to stick to their guns and whatever point they were trying to make with her inclusion in episode 8_. It's not that they didn't try to cater to fans, it's that they cared more about catering to fans like me who didn't like her than in trying to present a consistent vision with characters they believed in. I'd have respected them more if they continued down the path of not trying to make movies for fans like me. Instead they bowed their heads and tried to "give the fans what they want" instead of making the movies they wanted to, *because they never wanted to make movies. They wanted to milk a franchise.* Lucas at least had the balls to, for the most part, say "fuck you. My saga, my rules" with the prequels. They're not objectively good movies but they're a better trilogy than this mess, because he had a story he wanted to tell.


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Except it is in one critical way. _It shows how they don't even have the balls to stick to their guns and whatever point they were trying to make with her inclusion in episode 8_. It's not that they didn't try to cater to fans, it's that they cared more about catering to fans like me who didn't like her than in trying to present a consistent vision with characters they believed in. I'd have respected them more if they continued down the path of not trying to make movies for fans like me. Instead they bowed their heads and tried to "give the fans what they want" instead of making the movies they wanted to, *because they never wanted to make movies. They wanted to milk a franchise.* Lucas at least had the balls to, for the most part, say "fuck you. My saga, my rules" with the prequels. They're not objectively good movies but they're a better trilogy than this mess, because he had a story he wanted to tell.



That doesn't address anything I said at all. The reason they removed Rose was because they knew she would hurt their profit margins, her character had an unprecedented 40-45+ minutes of limelight hogging up the screen in Episode 8. We had an entire worthless sub-plot with Casino Blight focusing on her and Finn which gave nothing to the overarching story at all. So what catering is there other than JJ, the other writers, and their bosses likely coming to the logical rationalization that: "Holy shit here's one of the main factors of the previous film that almost everyone universally hated, better cut it out to hope for more box office bucks, this surely isn't a fuck up."

And of course Lucas had his own rules because he wasn't just the head writer and director but owned Lucas Films as well which at the time as the last major independent film studio in Hollywood and the IP was stronger than ever so he could do that.


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Rian gave the characters more depth than JJ had. Kylo for example was at his best in Last Jedi. JJ just wants him to be a confused child and nothing more.
> 
> Gotta give credit where it's due.



Rey and kylo's parts in last jedi were good. I still remember them.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Son Of Man (Dec 26, 2019)

I dig the idea of kylo ren but he just comes off as a reeeeeeeeeing fuckboy in the movies to me. Also in the new comic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## U mad bro (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Rian gave the characters more depth than JJ had. Kylo for example was at his best in Last Jedi. JJ just wants him to be a confused child and nothing more.
> 
> Gotta give credit where it's due.


Rian was a fake ass feminist. That was his whole movie about empowering females in cheesy ass ways. That is why Poe and Finn stories went absolutely nowhere for an entire movie. The movie derailed the entire plot. Rian Johnson biggest sin was trying to make the school shooter Kylo into the big bad


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

I thought he gave Poe loads of respect .Poe took up  most of the storyline.

Here he was pretty much..useless for the most part. Like..why did he even tag along?


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## U mad bro (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I thought he gave Poe loads of respect .Poe took up  most of the storyline.
> 
> Here he was pretty much..useless for the most part. Like..why did he even tag along?


Poe was pretty much locked up in a cage in last Jedi or told to shut the fuck up and sit down. In sky walker he did his job. People forgot that he was the best pilot in the galaxy. That was thanks to last Jedi when he didn’t do shit lol


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Poe was pretty much locked up in a cage in last Jedi or told to shut the fuck up and sit down. In sky walker he did his job. People forgot that he was the best pilot in the galaxy. That was thanks to last Jedi when he didn’t do shit lol


Eh..I think you need to rewatch the movie bro. The movie started with him and he had major plot significance .


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I thought he gave Poe loads of respect .Poe took up  most of the storyline.
> 
> Here he was pretty much..useless for the most part. Like..why did he even tag along?



How did Poe get "loads of respect" exactly? He was repeatedly throughout the entirety of TLJ emasculated by Leia and Holdo for being a toxic male, headstrong, and masculine in his efforts to save the Resistance Fleet and his failed "mutiny" attempt. He was also "graced" with the cringiest line about the "fire lighting the spark that will burn down the First Order" bullshit.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> How did Poe get "loads of respect" exactly? He was repeatedly throughout the entirety of TLJ emasculated by Leia and Holdo for being a toxic male, headstrong, and masculine in his efforts to save the Resistance Fleet and his failed "mutiny" attempt. He was also "graced" with the cringiest line about the "fire lighting the spark that will burn down the First Order" bullshit.


I didn't see him as emasculated.  Both his superiors even said that he is the future and praised him. He needed to learn a lesson that war brings casualties.   Sometimes a tail must be cut off in order for the body to survive.

I thought he was handled better in TLJ than in this film were he just quips and barely served a purpose.


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## U mad bro (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Eh..I think you need to rewatch the movie bro. The movie started with him and he had major plot significance .


Who wants to do that? I’ve never heard anyone say they wanted to watch last Jedi again. That movie is dry as fuck. The entire movie they had Poe looking crazy. He got demoted and sidelined for the majority of it after that beginning sequence.


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## Mider T (Dec 26, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Who wants to do that? I’ve never heard anyone say they wanted to watch last Jedi again. That movie is dry as fuck. The entire movie they had Poe looking crazy. He got demoted and sidelined for the majority of it after that beginning sequence.


Translation: I'm speaking out of my ass and don't want to correct myself.


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## U mad bro (Dec 26, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Translation: I'm speaking out of my ass and don't want to correct myself.


Correct myself from what he was immediately demoted after the first battle. Then spent the entire movie being bitched. Oh let’s not talk about a 45 minute plot about a casino heist that culminates into nothing. Led by a character who adds shit to the story. Sorry I don’t want to waste 2 and half precious hours of my life to watch bullshit I don’t like. Thank you but no thank you. How people legit like a movie about Luke angrily  jacking off an alien is beyond me.


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I didn't see him as emasculated.  Both his superiors even said that he is the future and praised him. He needed to learn a lesson that war brings casualties.   Sometimes a tail must be cut off in order for the body to survive.



I think you completely missed the point of why and how what most other people are seeing differs from your take. He was borderline useless after the start of the film and used as an avatar for a not so very subtle shot at men, especially since TLJ followed on the immediate heels of the MeToo movement; especially since Rian has no so subtly interjected on in his commentaries claiming why fans are "toxic" for hating it. I don't know where you are going with this but most of the movie is essentially him being told he's wrong and Holdo's plan was ultimately worthless so the entire dressing down of him was pointless on top of that.



> I thought he was handled better in TLJ than in this film were he just quips and barely served a purpose.



The lightspeed "skipping" shit was also pretty dumb, same with the Ties vs the Falcon but I'm still in the opinion he was treated better in 7 and 9 then he was in 8.


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Dec 26, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Correct myself from what he was immediately demoted after the first battle. Then spent the entire movie being bitched. Oh let’s not talk about a 45 minute plot about a casino heist that culminates into nothing. Led by a character who adds shit to the story. Sorry I don’t want to waste 2 and half precious hours of my life to watch bullshit I don’t like. Thank you but no thank you. How people legit like a movie about Luke angrily  jacking off an alien is beyond me.


I dunno what this tangent is about.  You were wrong bro, accept it and move on.  Next time do your research.


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## U mad bro (Dec 26, 2019)

Hey 





Mider T said:


> I dunno what this tangent is about.  You were wrong bro, accept it and move on.  Next time do your research.


It’s called a discussion. Clearly you don’t know how to have one. Considering you responses consists of dismissal rather than engagement. That is something kids do to their parents. You can be my son if you want. I don’t mind sonning you


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> He was borderline useless after the start of the film and used as an avatar for a not so very subtle shot at men,



..I dont  see it

Looks like he was being groomed for leadership to me..not so much "being emasculated". I left the movie with the thought that he was the most developed besides maybe Kylo..

But agree to disagree.


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## Mider T (Dec 26, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Hey
> It’s called a discussion. Clearly you don’t know how to have one. Considering you responses consists of dismissal rather than engagement. That is something kids do to their parents. You can be my son if you want. I don’t mind sonning you


Your tangent is just rambling, you're not listening to the other side and refuse to educate yourself, that's not a discussion.


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## Azaleia (Dec 26, 2019)

Adam Driver was given so little but he still made it work somehow, I can only wish the best for him. Still his character arc was a mess like the rest of the trilogy.


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)

Whaddya mean they ruined Star Wars?

These nine stories are perfect.


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## U mad bro (Dec 26, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Your tangent is just rambling, you're not listening to the other side and refuse to educate yourself, that's not a discussion.


I know the movie what is there to educate myself on? I have the information I just said I won’t watch the movie *again. *Why because I have a firm grasp of why I dislike the movie.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 26, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Except it is in one critical way. _It shows how they don't even have the balls to stick to their guns and whatever point they were trying to make with her inclusion in episode 8_. It's not that they didn't try to cater to fans, it's that they cared more about catering to fans like me who didn't like her than in trying to present a consistent vision with characters they believed in. I'd have respected them more if they continued down the path of not trying to make movies for fans like me. Instead they bowed their heads and tried to "give the fans what they want" instead of making the movies they wanted to, *because they never wanted to make movies. They wanted to milk a franchise.* Lucas at least had the balls to, for the most part, say "fuck you. My saga, my rules" with the prequels. They're not objectively good movies but they're a better trilogy than this mess, because he had a story he wanted to tell.



That's not quite true though, because Lucas does give concessions to the fandom. Jar Jar Binks for example barely appeared in Revenge of the Sith and had no speaking lines because of the huge fan backlash against the character and Lucas straight up said that Jar Jar Binks was his favorite character. However, I will agree that Lucas had an artistic vision and stories to tell regarding the StarWarsverse whereas everyone else in Disney clearly has no idea what to do.


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> That's not quite true though, because Lucas does give concessions to the fandom. Jar Jar Binks for example barely appeared in Revenge of the Sith and had no speaking lines because of the huge fan backlash against the character and Lucas straight up said that Jar Jar Binks was his favorite character. However, I will agree that Lucas had an artistic vision and stories to tell regarding the StarWarsverse whereas everyone else in Disney clearly has no idea what to do.




I had previously specifically named the Jar Jar thing as a rare time he let the fans get under his skin and affect the vision. 

However, as there was a unifying vision in the first place, this was a mild deviation. Not the retcon of a retcon that episode 9 is. 

The Thrawn trilogy I keep going on about is notable for having a strong story structure pre-planned as well. Kind of a big deal with a trilogy to have a story outline done ahead of time. A beginning, middle and end. You take any given character in Disney Star Wars and examine their character arc and it's painfully obvious there was no plan. 

Let's take a villain, for instance. Compare Snoke to Thrawn from the books, or Sidious from the PT, or Vader in the OT and...yeah. There was no road map for this character to the extent the notes Serkis was given about his background in the early 2010s didn't end up corresponding to what we saw on screen.


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> ..I dont  see it



Because you are being willingly blinded to the reality of what transpired in the film.



> Looks like he was being groomed for leadership to me..not so much "being emasculated". I left the movie with the thought that he was the most developed besides maybe Kylo..
> 
> But agree to disagree.



K.


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## Kaaant (Dec 26, 2019)

Every film in this trilogy is absolutely terrible


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## 12771a (Dec 26, 2019)

Saw it a couple days ago. I thought it was eh. I feel like If I was younger this movie would've been amazing to me, but I think me watching sw analysis, other sw movies and etc really made me not as excited. The movie was a big mixed bag leaning on the negative side. I think my main gripes were how stuff comes out of nowhere. Palpatine gets revived with no hint whatsoever in the past movies, palpatine having a whole armada this entire time (really undermines the crap we've been through with SK base, death star etc), rey being a palpatine even though rian seem to be hinting that she is a nobody (After thinking about it, I've come to like the "nobody" route, makes for a more optimistic and less fate tied theme imo) and force healing (that should've been a rey-kylo connection that they can only use on each other). Knights of Ren were lame af, red guards were cooler. Leia should;ve had a more dramatic death imo. IDK maybe she should've healed kylo through a force connection and been there with han which would've killed her due to strain. Movie felt like been there done that. IDK maybe it's just me getting used to action movies. I didn't feel a lot of emotional investment. I did like a couple of things like the whole Rey/Kylo connection especially the teleportation thing.


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## Pilaf (Dec 26, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



They seriously didn't explain how Palpatine is alive at all, did they? I may have missed it because of my near-constant uncontrollable Joker laughter but they totally didn't explain it in any way, shape or form....or who Snoke was except Palpatine 'created Snoke'...or why the Snoke clones have the same deformities as the original Snoke..or...oh God never mind. They didn't think of reasons for any of this shit so why should I care?


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> They seriously didn't explain how Palpatine is alive at all, did they? I may have missed it because of my near-constant uncontrollable Joker laughter but they totally didn't explain it in any way, shape or form....or who Snoke was except Palpatine 'created Snoke'...or why the Snoke clones have the same deformities as the original Snoke..or...oh God never mind. They didn't think of reasons for any of this shit so why should I care?



You don't have to spoiler text any more. The entire throwaway line to explain Palpatine's return was having his character repeat the same line about the dark side being a pathway to many abilities considered to be unnatural from Revenge of the Sith, verbatim. That's it.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> ..I dont  see it
> 
> Looks like he was being groomed for leadership to me..not so much "being emasculated". I left the movie with the thought that he was the most developed besides maybe Kylo..
> 
> But agree to disagree.


>"I don't see it"
>Gets his shit slapped in the very first second of the video

No disrespect to be found here


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> >"I don't see it"
> >Gets his shit slapped in the very first second of the video
> 
> No disrespect to be found here


It was a love tap. The same ones that mothers like to give on occasion.


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## Blocky (Dec 26, 2019)

I feel like out of all the films of this not-so-prepared trilogy, I feel like TFA was the best out of all the three IMO. I guess TLJ was kinda close?

But those two films are bad too no doubt.

Of course, as others pointed out. A lack of vision and planning is the biggest problem that the trilogy has and it makes me wonder whoever was at Lucasfilms or Disney clearly doesn't take many notes from MCU at all. In fact, if Kevin Page was doing the sequel trilogy, there would have least been a vision.

Rise of the Skywalker was mostly meh and very boring at worst. The main villain is one of the best parts but that isn't saying much when this is pretty much the same villain we knew.

I rate Rise of the Skywalker at about 4/10.


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

Blocky said:


> I feel like out of all the films of this not-so-prepared trilogy, I feel like TFA was the best out of all the three IMO. I guess TLJ was kinda close?
> 
> But those two films are bad too no doubt.
> 
> ...



What does Episode 3 have to do with this?


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## ~VK~ (Dec 26, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> It was a love tap. The same ones that mothers like to give on occasion.


but she ain't his mother. she's treating him like he's a little child she's allowed to slap around. it's disrespectful. 

poe was getting shit on all of TLJ. his actions were entirely logical given the behaviour of his superiors yet he was being dismissed and belittled like a stupid kid who needs to grow up.


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## Blocky (Dec 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> What does Episode 3 have to do with this?


I meant Rise of the Skywalker.

For some reason, the two titles have the same abbreviation. I better be careful next time.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 26, 2019)

~VK~ said:


> but she ain't his mother. she's treating him like he's a little child she's allowed to slap around. it's disrespectful.
> 
> poe was getting shit on all of TLJ. his actions were entirely logical given the behaviour of his superiors yet he was being dismissed and belittled like a stupid kid who needs to grow up.


That's your interpretation . I was on their side watching and thought he was being naive . 

And somehow I liked Poe more there than here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~VK~ (Dec 26, 2019)

Blocky said:


> I meant Rise of the Skywalker.
> 
> For some reason, the two titles have the same abbreviation. I better be careful next time.


The rise of skywalker. TROS. not ROTS


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

Blocky said:


> I meant Rise of the Skywalker.
> 
> For some reason, the two titles have the same abbreviation. I better be careful next time.



9 is TROS

3 is ROTS, no worries I made the same mistake awhile back


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## MartialHorror (Dec 26, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> I had previously specifically named the Jar Jar thing as a rare time he let the fans get under his skin and affect the vision.
> 
> .



Thank God for that. Even if Jar Jar Binks wasn't annoying, I don't see how he would've fit in the increasingly darker tone of the PT. Even though C3PO was prominent throughout the OT, ESB was the only really dark entry and he got his ass mangled into pieces when things shit got real. Can you imagine Anakin murdering children, only for it to cut to Jar Jar? That was bad enough when Qui Gon died. 

Of course, maybe it wasn't Lucas bending to the fandom. Maybe even he realized that he wouldn't fit as snugly in AOTC and ROTS.


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## Fang (Dec 26, 2019)

ROTS was darker than TESB


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## MartialHorror (Dec 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> ROTS was darker than TESB



Ack. I meant ESB was the darkest of the original trilogy, not the franchise as a whole. My point was that  even though C3PO was prominent throughout the OT, ESB -- when the OT was at its darkest -- had him chopped into pieces so that he wouldn't derail the tone. 

So I just don't see how RotS, which is arguably the darkest entry throughout the entire franchise, would've had any place for Jar Jar. While it's often assumed Lucas downplayed his role in response to the fan backlash, it's equally possible that he would've been 'demoted' to a minor role regardless.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> What an absolute taste of a franchise.



This is either a typo for "waste", or some kind of dialectal/slang English expression I've never heard before. I like it, though.


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## U mad bro (Dec 27, 2019)

Star Wars on the big screen won’t work anymore in my opinion too much politics involved. Everything but the plot is the priority when it comes to the films. That is the same reason I dislike a lot of cape films now.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

"So people keep talking about these Star Wars books. I wonder if I should check them out now that the film series is over?"

*googles*

Legends: 381 books.
Disney: 86+ books.
Total: 467+ books

"Um... maybe after I finish reading the entire Ancient Chinese literature."


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

For perspective:

If you're like me and read about one book a week, it would take you almost *nine years* to get through all the Star Wars books, provided you don't stop to read anything else.


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## Darth (Dec 27, 2019)

Mider T said:


> @Darth how powerful did you imagine?


Sadly, my imagination has been stunted ever since I came back from that screening of The Rise of Skywalker 

(In retrospect, what an awful name)


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## Darth (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> For perspective:
> 
> If you're like me and read about one book a week, it would take you almost *nine years* to get through all the Star Wars books, provided you don't stop to read anything else.


No better time to start than today xD


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

Darth said:


> No better time to start than today xD



I feel like reboots are inevitable, because any narrative that goes on long enough eventually reaches a "point of inaccessibility" where catching up with what's going on requires such an investment of energy that people who aren't already on-board won't deem it worth the effort.

Star Trek, for example. People who aren't already fans aren't going to watch over 700 episodes in anticipation of Picard. You need to build an access ramp so new viewers can get on this highway without having to start at the very beginning.

Arguably, the first "reboot" in history was when Martin Luther said to throw out all the Catholic commentary literature and keep only the Bible itself as sacred. Prior to the Reformation, I imagine that "catching up" on Christianity took such a long time that only professional monks and nuns ever had time to read everything.


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## Pilaf (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> This is either a typo for "waste", or some kind of dialectal/slang English expression I've never heard before. I like it, though.


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## Tony Lou (Dec 27, 2019)

How did you guys react to the kiss?
ck


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

Luiz said:


> How did you guys react to the kiss?
> ck



Who cares? It's forced, but harmless.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 27, 2019)

I hated the kiss. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



The development of their relationship seemed rooted in him being an emotionally manipulative, abusive... murderous... asshole, who only had a change of heart because of Leia dying. I find the "literal soulmates" thing to be more creepy than romantic. Can you imagine having to be forced into a spiritual bond with someone who tells you you're "nothing. You come from nothing" to guilt you into taking their side. She says "It's Ben who I wanted to be with" or whatever is even dumber, as she never knew Ben. All she knew was that Kylo Ren was a facade, but every time he had the opportunity to be Ben Solo, he let her down.  




So yeah, fuck that shit.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

Oh, I thought we were talking about the lesbian kiss.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 27, 2019)

Has there ever been a healthy relationship in Star Wars?


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Has there ever been a healthy relationship in Star Wars?



Han and the Millennium Falcon?


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 27, 2019)

Nah..he basically stole Lando's girlfriend. (Lando and that robot chick is probably the healthiest relationship we've witnessed. )


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## Darth (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Nah..he basically stole Lando's girlfriend. (Lando and that robot chick is probably the healthiest relationship we've witnessed. )


He didn't steal it, he won it in a game of chance!


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## MartialHorror (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Oh, I thought we were talking about the lesbian kiss.



OOOOOOOH, in that case, I was indifferent. It's nice that J.J Abrams kept his promise about LGBT representation, but as has been pointed out, it's obviously presented in such a way that's easy to cut out for distribution in countries that might frown upon such scenes. It goes so fast that I wasn't even entirely sure if I saw it correctly. 



~Gesy~ said:


> Has there ever been a healthy relationship in Star Wars?



Fair point, but at least with Leia and Han, you could see why they're attracted to each-other... and it ended in realistic fashion.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

I find the scheduling of The Mandalorian pretty interesting.

All but one episode aired in the lead-up to Rise of Skywalker, but the finale conspicuously airs after. It seems like they knew that the show was better than the movie, so on the one hand they used it as a means to drum up excitement for ROS, and on the other hand they're using it as a safety net in case the movie bombs, so that people's last impression of Star Wars before the franchise goes on hiatus will be positive rather than negative.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 27, 2019)

Alright, so to balance my posts out a bit, I figured I'd say something nice about Rise of Skywalker, as I'm more indifferent than hostile towards the movie. 

I liked Palpatine using his force powers to take on the entire rebellion. Even though it felt like reshoots, it was a pretty cool moment, something I hadn't really seen before.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 27, 2019)

I didn't like that moment..the whole third act had me doing this" " the whole time.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

Luiz said:


> How did you guys react to the kiss?
> ck



Cringed from it


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 27, 2019)

What I liked about Rise of Skywalker?

Rey Skywalker and Kylo Ren fighting on sea wreckage was kinda cool, I guess.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> What I liked about Rise of Skywalker?
> 
> Rey Skywalker and Kylo Ren fighting on sea wreckage was kinda cool, I guess.



Yeah that was a pretty good fight.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> "So people keep talking about these Star Wars books. I wonder if I should check them out now that the film series is over?"
> 
> *googles*
> 
> ...



There is no Legends mate. There is only Lucas Star Wars and "Disney Star Wars" and also a big chunk of the old canon books are likely like the Young Reader versions of the official novelizations of Episodes I to VI and things like the Clone Wars movie.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Dec 27, 2019)

Daisy Ridley must've been thirsting to kiss Adam Driver ever since the conception of the Ben Swolo scene in TLJ


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## Tony Lou (Dec 27, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Daisy Ridley must've been thirsting to kiss Adam Driver ever since the conception of the Ben Swolo scene in TLJ



She is into dudes with big noses?


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## MShadows (Dec 27, 2019)

Luiz said:


> She is into dudes with big noses?


You know what they say about dudes with big noses... 

ck


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 27, 2019)

Lots of mucus?


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

I'm watching The Force Awakens on YouKu, where it has Chinese subtitles.

They transcribed Rey's name with the character_ Lei_ 蕾, which means "flower bud". I wonder if that's a pun on her actress being named "Daisy"?


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## Pilaf (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I'm watching The Force Awakens on YouKu, where it has Chinese subtitles.
> 
> They transcribed Rey's name with the character_ Lei_ 蕾, which means "flower bud". I wonder if that's a pun on her actress being named "Daisy"?




At least her name's not Allah Gold or Ratio Tile.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> At least her name's not Allah Gold or Ratio Tile.



>implying you didn't love Backstroke of the West


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

Harrison Ford is the best part of The Force Awakens. His facial expression when getting back in the Millenium Falcon is as much the actor (back on that set) as it is the character.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Harrison Ford is the best part of The Force Awakens. His facial expression when getting back in the Millenium Falcon is as much the actor (back on that set) as it is the character.



Really because his acting in TFA seemed to be pretty much him telephoning it in and not caring. Still not as bad as Bogeya or Fisher especially however.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Harrison Ford is the best part of The Force Awakens. His facial expression when getting back in the Millenium Falcon is as much the actor (back on that set) as it is the character.



I've been always confused as to why Harrison Ford spent so many years hating on Han Solo when it always seemed like the character brought out some of his best work. Even in 
*Spoiler*: __ 



"Rise of Skywalker", his cameo showcased more emotion than the entirety of "Firewall".


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

I don't know if I've been influenced by the general hate towards the sequel trilogy, but it definitely comes off worse than what I remembered from my two theatrical viewings. I didn't notice the New Hope parallells back then, but now I can't un-see them.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I don't know if I've been influenced by the general hate towards the sequel trilogy, but it definitely comes off worse than what I remembered from my two theatrical viewings. I didn't notice the New Hope parallells back then, but now I can't un-see them.



Wait wait wait. How did you not notice this in TFA?

It starts on a desert planet clearly meant to be an expy to Tatooine, we have the dark robed Sith-like enforcer Vader (Ren) chasing after a Rebel leader Leia (Poe) for important plans that are loaded on a droid loyal to him Artoo (BB8), the main protagonist is an orphan who doesn't know their real parents on said planet like Luke (Rey), they end up escaping the Imperials (First Order) on the Falcon, beeline to Maz Kanata's planet, a jungle world with exotic temples and pyramids (Yavin 4), and ends up with the Death Star (Starkiller Base) destroyed by a daring X-Wing starfighter pilot destroying its generators/reactor core while the mentor figure (Han) Obi-Wan is struck down by said enforcer before the protagonist.


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## Pilaf (Dec 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> >implying you didn't love Backstroke of the West




Mr. Speaker, we are for the Big.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Mr. Speaker, we are for the Big.



The Presbyterian Church likes you not.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> Wait wait wait. How did you not notice this in TFA?



I was distracted by how much better than the prequels it was.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I was distracted by how much CGI was shoved in my face



I fixed your post.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

And speaking of which trying to rewatch TFA the other night and I was stunned by how badly the visuals have aged in only 4 years.


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## Pilaf (Dec 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> The Presbyterian Church likes you not.



Looking at me am a Civilization Person.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Looking at me am a Civilization Person.



He is in my behind!


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

Best thing is I understand where all the mistranslations come from.


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## Pilaf (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Best thing is I understand where all the mistranslations come from.



Is our baby on the hoof?


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## U mad bro (Dec 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> And speaking of which trying to rewatch TFA the other night and I was stunned by how badly the visuals have aged in only 4 years.


 Not really you know the thing with these big blockbuster theatrical releases. They can only sustain themselves while in a theatre. Sitting at home watching them the effects are weakened. They are made to shine on a big screen


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 27, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Not really you know the thing with these big blockbuster theatrical releases. They can only sustain themselves while in a theatre. Sitting at home watching them the effects are weakened. They are made to shine on a big screen


 

Step your "Home entertainment system" game up.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I don't know if I've been influenced by the general hate towards the sequel trilogy, but it definitely comes off worse than what I remembered from my two theatrical viewings. I didn't notice the New Hope parallells back then, but now I can't un-see them.





Fang said:


> Wait wait wait. How did you not notice this in TFA?
> 
> It starts on a desert planet clearly meant to be an expy to Tatooine, we have the dark robed Sith-like enforcer Vader (Ren) chasing after a Rebel leader Leia (Poe) for important plans that are loaded on a droid loyal to him Artoo (BB8), the main protagonist is an orphan who doesn't know their real parents on said planet like Luke (Rey), they end up escaping the Imperials (First Order) on the Falcon, beeline to Maz Kanata's planet, a jungle world with exotic temples and pyramids (Yavin 4), and ends up with the Death Star (Starkiller Base) destroyed by a daring X-Wing starfighter pilot destroying its generators/reactor core while the mentor figure (Han) Obi-Wan is struck down by said enforcer before the protagonist.



Yeah I enjoyed the force awakens, but even I noticed how it was working the classic formula.


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## U mad bro (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Step your "Home entertainment system" game up.


My system wired into the walls and hooked to the system in my house. The only way you get any better is going to the movies

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

Watching the movies in numerical order, the sequel trilogy feels tacked-on because Anakin isn't in it, except his helmet. The preceding six films were all his story, so it should have naturally ended with his death.

It's also weird that Ben would idealise Anakin's Vader persona, when Leia must have told him pretty much from birth that he turned good in the end. And couldn't they have summoned Anakin's Force ghost to set the record straight?

The real-life reason is obviously that they didn't want Hayden Christensen involved because they didn't want to remind people of the prequels, but narratively I think it would have made the nonology more cohesive if Anakin's ghost was a supporting character in the sequel trilogy.

Like, maybe he can't appear to Ben because the Emperor is blocking him or something, and we could see his reaction to watching his grandson turn to the Dark Side and being powerless to do anything about it.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 27, 2019)

We don't know how Leia feels about Anakin. She didn't bond with him like Luke did. 

Han Solo definitely continued to view him negatively.  Wouldn't surprise me if she never spoke of him.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Not really you know the thing with these big blockbuster theatrical releases. They can only sustain themselves while in a theatre. Sitting at home watching them the effects are weakened. They are made to shine on a big screen



That's not really true. Even when Black Panther came out in theaters, you could tell the CGI was horrendous during the underground fight between T'challa and Ghost-Face Killah.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> We don't know how Leia feels about Anakin. She didn't bond with him like Luke did.
> 
> Han Solo definitely continued to view him negatively.  Wouldn't surprise me if she never spoke of him.



He did torture her off-screen in Episode IV.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> We don't know how Leia feels about Anakin. She didn't bond with him like Luke did.
> 
> Han Solo definitely continued to view him negatively.  Wouldn't surprise me if she never spoke of him.



In Lucas Star Wars, it takes Leia several long years after the events of Return of the Jedi to reconcile the fact that Anakin Skywalker is her father much less the man who became Darth Vader, was at least partly to blame for the destruction of her adoptive home world of Alderaan and a former hero of the Clone Wars and the Jedi. He only once or twice ever appears to her as a Force Ghost and knows he will never truly have her forgiveness but she eventually does in a way forgive him when her final child and son, is born and she names him Anakin Solo.

In Disney Star Wars, yes we know absolutely jackshit about her having any knowledge about Vader's true identity beyond what's shown in the OT and hinted at.


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## Deathbringerpt (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> Harrison Ford is the best part of The Force Awakens. His facial expression when getting back in the Millenium Falcon is as much the actor (back on that set) as it is the character.



TFA and Bladerunner 2049 are literally the only 2 movies in several fucking years where Harrison Ford visibly gives a shit about the part he's playing. Any other recent movie he's made, he just shows the man's just fucking done with being an actor.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

>TFA
>Ford giving a shit 

El oh el


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 27, 2019)

Yeah I think Ford said he _didn't_ give a shit for star wars

Could be wrong though.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 27, 2019)

Yeah he definitely speaks of Star wars in contempt these days.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 27, 2019)




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## Deathbringerpt (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah he definitely speaks of Star wars in contempt these days.



He's been talking shit about Star Wars since the original trilogy. He can't fucking stand people's obsession over it and the guy would almost quit every time an interviewer who asked WHO SHOT FIRST XD for the umpteenth time. You could say the same for pretty much most legitimate actor like Ewan Mcgregor or Liam Neeson. These movies are mostly jobs for a bunch of them and they openly dislike how people are so hyped by it. And I mean interviews where they tend to be more personal like radio shows and other crap, not the boring ass, surgical PR interviews we've been getting since the prequels. Mark Hamill is a nerd and he's mostly the outlier.

But Ford definitely had a lot more spunk than pretty much any other movie he's been besides Bladerunner 2049 which is probably the last movie he'll actually give a genuine shit about.


----------



## Pliskin (Dec 27, 2019)

The most importantest revelation is that elderly sidious knocked a girl up.

'Do it',

You just know he uses that line.


----------



## ~VK~ (Dec 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> Wait wait wait. How did you not notice this in TFA?
> 
> It starts on a desert planet clearly meant to be an expy to Tatooine, we have the dark robed Sith-like enforcer Vader (Ren) chasing after a Rebel leader Leia (Poe) for important plans that are loaded on a droid loyal to him Artoo (BB8), the main protagonist is an orphan who doesn't know their real parents on said planet like Luke (Rey), they end up escaping the Imperials (First Order) on the Falcon, beeline to Maz Kanata's planet, a jungle world with exotic temples and pyramids (Yavin 4), and ends up with the Death Star (Starkiller Base) destroyed by a daring X-Wing starfighter pilot destroying its generators/reactor core while the mentor figure (Han) Obi-Wan is struck down by said enforcer before the protagonist.


notice how finn doesn't fit in with all the new hope parrallels? he was their only original idea and they blew it spectacularly!!


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Has there ever been a healthy relationship in Star Wars?



Anakin's mother and the guy who bought her. . .


Leia's adoptive parents, I suppose.
We saw them in the prequels for like a second, so technically they count.


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## Pliskin (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Has there ever been a healthy relationship in Star Wars?


That fat trainer guy and his Rancor.


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## ~VK~ (Dec 27, 2019)

finn and rey probably would have made for a decent healthy couple if disney didn't bitch out on it and decided to turn finn into an actual cuck.


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## Atem (Dec 27, 2019)




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## Raiden (Dec 27, 2019)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Glad this particular plot is over. I can understand that people were frustrated...I think they could have made a far more dynamic final battle. All good though.


----------



## UtahCrip (Dec 27, 2019)

aint watching this but did my boy fin hit?


----------



## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

Yeah a chick on YouTube went out of her way to purchase like 2500 audience scores on RT and analyzed them saying they were bought and used by bots to farm positive reviews for TROS.


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Anakin's mother and the guy who bought her. . .
> 
> 
> Leia's adoptive parents, I suppose.
> We saw them in the prequels for like a second, so technically they count.



Bail Organa has a significant role in Rogue One and he does again as well in Revenge of the Sith. We only saw his wife/Leia's adoptive mother for the final scene on Alderaan at the end of Episode 3.


----------



## U mad bro (Dec 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> That's not really true. Even when Black Panther came out in theaters, you could tell the CGI was horrendous during the underground fight between T'challa and Ghost-Face Killah.


Black panther was watchable in the movies. But like you said the cgi was bad. Fuck them Rhinos. Which makes me mad considering how crisp Black Panther was in civil war.


~VK~ said:


> finn and rey probably would have made for a decent healthy couple if disney didn't bitch out on it and decided to turn finn into an actual cuck.


Once again Last Jedi. Completely derailed his story. He was set up to be force sensitive way back in TFA. Was made an entire movie to be a sidekick to a character more hated than Jar Jar


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Dec 27, 2019)

UtahCrip said:


> aint watching this but did my boy fin hit?


Nope. He didn't even get his own hug..he had to share one with Poe. Smh


----------



## UtahCrip (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Nope. He didn't even get his own hug..he had to share one with Poe. Smh


damn. hollywood stay trying to neuter the blacc man. should have known after billy dee aint fucc the princess bacc in the day. cant convince me she'd rather be kissing on her brother than getting that bbc.


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## Tony Lou (Dec 27, 2019)

I loved the ending scene. Such a perfect way to end a great franchise.

Thankfully, nobody tried to keep the story going after that. It would be silly, wouldn't it?


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## Tony Lou (Dec 27, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Nope. He didn't even get his own hug..he had to share one with Poe. Smh





UtahCrip said:


> damn. hollywood stay trying to neuter the blacc man. should have known after billy dee aint fucc the princess bacc in the day. cant convince me she'd rather be kissing on her brother than getting that bbc.



Remember when the Force Awakens trailer showed Finn wielding a lightsaber against Kylo Ren and we all thought he was gonna be important?
ck

Reactions: Like 3


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## Mider T (Dec 27, 2019)

UtahCrip said:


> damn. hollywood stay trying to neuter the blacc man. should have known after billy dee aint fucc the princess bacc in the day. cant convince me she'd rather be kissing on her brother than getting that bbc.


Yeah, he got cucc'd


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

Fang said:


> Really because his acting in TFA seemed to be pretty much him telephoning it in and not caring. Still not as bad as Bogeya or Fisher especially however.





MartialHorror said:


> I've been always confused as to why Harrison Ford spent so many years hating on Han Solo when it always seemed like the character brought out some of his best work. Even in
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...





Deathbringerpt said:


> TFA and Bladerunner 2049 are literally the only 2 movies in several fucking years where Harrison Ford visibly gives a shit about the part he's playing. Any other recent movie he's made, he just shows the man's just fucking done with being an actor.





Fang said:


> >TFA
> >Ford giving a shit
> 
> El oh el





Deathbringerpt said:


> He's been talking shit about Star Wars since the original trilogy. He can't fucking stand people's obsession over it and the guy would almost quit every time an interviewer who asked WHO SHOT FIRST XD for the umpteenth time. You could say the same for pretty much most legitimate actor like Ewan Mcgregor or Liam Neeson. These movies are mostly jobs for a bunch of them and they openly dislike how people are so hyped by it. And I mean interviews where they tend to be more personal like radio shows and other crap, not the boring ass, surgical PR interviews we've been getting since the prequels. Mark Hamill is a nerd and he's mostly the outlier.
> 
> But Ford definitely had a lot more spunk than pretty much any other movie he's been besides Bladerunner 2049 which is probably the last movie he'll actually give a genuine shit about.



This is the scene. Rather than the forced "we're home" line that's there for the trailer, pay attention to his expression when he steps back in the cockpit at 1:30.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 27, 2019)

So Chris Terrio co-wrote the screenplay of _The Rise of Skywalker_.

The same Chris Terrio who co-wrote the screenplay of _Batman v Superman_.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 27, 2019)

The only time I felt Ford's acting in "The Force Awakens" seemed off was when he discusses Ben with Leia, but even then, I thought the dialogue was more to blame. For the rest of the movie, I thought he was great. I think it would've been better if he survived until "The Last Jedi", as everyone knew he was going to die in "The Force Awakens" and his survival would've been a pleasant surprise. The 2nd entry in a trilogy usually ends on the darkest hour, so his death there would've been fitting and then Luke's death from TLJ would've been a perfect way to close out Episode 9.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Dec 27, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> This is the scene. Rather than the forced "we're home" line that's there for the trailer pay attention to his expression when he steps back in the cockpit at 1:30.



He literally gives off the facial expression of not caring there.




Comic Book Guy said:


> So Chris Terrio co-wrote the screenplay of _The Rise of Skywalker_.
> 
> The same Chris Terrio who co-wrote the screenplay of _Batman v Superman_.



Yep. Also Arndt was removed because he wanted to have Luke survive past Episode 8 and at least until 9 still maintain the main character status, Terrio also complained Luke 'stole' the spotlight whenever he was on screen or in the story against the new characters.


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## U mad bro (Dec 27, 2019)

They tried so hard for some reason to replace Luke with Leia. One Mark Hamil is a way better actor than Carrie Fisher. Two all her parts were even weaker because she was dead. Nevermind the cringe scene of Leia beating Luke. I’m like they doing the big homie Luke dirty and won’t let up


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2019)

Seems like my local theater is pulling Rise of Skywalker after just eight days. Last screening on the schedule is at 16:30.


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## Sunrider (Dec 27, 2019)

The more I think about the way the story played out, the less I like this movie. 

Like fuck, it was so disappointing.


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## Zhen Chan (Dec 28, 2019)

That wasnt awful. But not good


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## MartialHorror (Dec 28, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> They tried so hard for some reason to replace Luke with Leia. One Mark Hamil is a way better actor than Carrie Fisher. Two all her parts were even weaker because she was dead. Nevermind the cringe scene of Leia beating Luke. I’m like they doing the big homie Luke dirty and won’t let up



From what I understand, that was always the intention. When Carrie Fisher died, Mark Hamill said that TFA focused on Han, TLJ focused on Luke and RoS focused on Leia. 

With that said, I do agree with you and even if she had lived through production, that would've been a strange creative decision, as Carrie Fisher was more-or-less retired from acting by the time the new movies were announced and it does kind of show. It would've been especially jarring, as even though a lot of people didn't like Luke's characterization in TLJ, Mark Hamill's acting received acclaim... and I don't know if anything RoS could do would replicate that. 

Considering how the filmmakers initially said they wouldn't use CGI to bring back Leia though, I do find myself wondering why they didn't just have Luke as a force ghost training Rey, which we all assumed would happen.


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## Xebec (Dec 28, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> From what I understand, that was always the intention. When Carrie Fisher died, Mark Hamill said that TFA focused on Han, TLJ focused on Luke and RoS focused on Leia.
> 
> With that said, I do agree with you and even if she had lived through production, that would've been a strange creative decision, as Carrie Fisher was more-or-less retired from acting by the time the new movies were announced and it does kind of show. It would've been especially jarring, as even though a lot of people didn't like Luke's characterization in TLJ, Mark Hamill's acting received acclaim... and I don't know if anything RoS could do would replicate that.
> 
> Considering how the filmmakers initially said they wouldn't use CGI to bring back Leia though, I do find myself wondering why they didn't just have Luke as a force ghost training Rey, which we all assumed would happen.


Cause Rey don't need no man to teach her anything


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## dr_shadow (Dec 28, 2019)

@Pilaf

Do the books explain why R2-D2 is such an elite hacker?

In The Phantom Menace it looks like he's just a random astromech droid, but apparently he has no problem cracking all kinds of Separatist and Empire computers. Surely not all R2 units have this ability, or they'd be a huge security risk?


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## Zhen Chan (Dec 28, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> @Pilaf
> 
> Do the books explain why R2-D2 is such an elite hacker?
> 
> In The Phantom Menace it looks like he's just a random astromech droid, but apparently he has no problem cracking all kinds of Separatist and Empire computers. Surely not all R2 units have this ability, or they'd be a huge security risk?


The books that are now non canon explain it


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## dr_shadow (Dec 28, 2019)

Zhen Chan said:


> The books that are now non canon explain it



What is the non-canon explanation?


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## Zhen Chan (Dec 28, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> What is the non-canon explanation?


Droids get thier memories wiped every 3ish years to keep them from turning into crazy murder bots, but after anakin found r2 he did a bunch of alterations to him so nobody could wipe him. So hes been picking up information for the better part of 80 years, and is also a renown data whore (little bastard sticks his connector in everything) which puts him at a different class of droid knowledge now

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Dec 28, 2019)

Zhen Chan said:


> Droids get thier memories wiped every 3ish years to keep them from turning into crazy murder bots, but after anakin found r2 he did a bunch of alterations to him so nobody could wipe him. So hes been picking up information for the better part of 80 years, and is also a renown data whore (little bastard sticks his connector in everything) which puts him at a different class of droid knowledge now



That's... a surprisingly plausible explanation.


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## Mider T (Dec 28, 2019)

Zhen Chan said:


> Droids get thier memories wiped every 3ish years to keep them from turning into crazy murder bots, but after anakin found r2 he did a bunch of alterations to him so nobody could wipe him. So hes been picking up information for the better part of 80 years, and is also a renown data whore (little bastard sticks his connector in everything) which puts him at a different class of droid knowledge now


I thought R2 and Threepio had their memories wiped after Episode III?


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## Mider T (Dec 28, 2019)

You know what's funny though?  USB connectors change shape every few years but R2 is almost a century old and can still plug into things with his one...thing.


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## Tony Lou (Dec 28, 2019)

*Han Solo is killed*

Harrison Ford: YES! I'm finally free! I can't believe it!



"Hey there, Harry. So nice to talk to you again. We need you to come back for Kylo Ren's hallucinations."

Harrison Ford:

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Dec 28, 2019)

Why didn't Palpatine just use his lightsaber to fight with Rey and Ben?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 28, 2019)

Fang said:


> Bail Organa has a significant role in Rogue One and he does again as well in Revenge of the Sith. We only saw his wife/Leia's adoptive mother for the final scene on Alderaan at the end of Episode 3.



I meant them together as a couple, since that was the question.
So it's only that one scene in ep. 3.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 28, 2019)

Mider T said:


> I thought R2 and Threepio had their memories wiped after Episode III?



They only wiped "the protocol droid's" memory. No explanation given for why they didn't also wipe R2, other than plot contrivance.

I suppose we're meant to think that C-3PO could have yapped about sensitive information, but... everybody in this galaxy is clearly able to understand R2's binary language, so his inability to speak Basic ("English") doesn't really guarantee his silence. Do they just trust that R2 is better at keeping secrets than 3PO?


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## Pilaf (Dec 28, 2019)

Mider T said:


> I thought R2 and Threepio had their memories wiped after Episode III?




Nope. Just 3po. Nobody cares what the Astromech droid knows because nobody can understand them.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 28, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> Nope. Just 3po. Nobody cares what the Astromech droid knows because nobody can understand them.



*EVERYBODY CAN CLEARLY UNDERSTAND THEM, THOUGH! *


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## Skaddix (Dec 28, 2019)

I just want to see where the final Box Office ends up at this point. 

Total Failure Below 1 Billion.
Debatable if between 1 Billion and TLJ.
Roughly Ties TLJ then stops the Bleeding.
Success if it clears TLJ. 

Seems likely to end up above a billion but highly debatable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Dec 28, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> *EVERYBODY CAN CLEARLY UNDERSTAND THEM, THOUGH! *



In-universe, a few astute individuals can. Jedi seem to be most adept at it, like Anakin and Luke especially can hold fluent conversations with astromech droids, but the average person generally not so much. Wookiee language is similarly perplexing to most non-Wookiees. Solo's an outlier there.


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## Fang (Dec 28, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> They only wiped "the protocol droid's" memory. No explanation given for why they didn't also wipe R2, other than plot contrivance.
> 
> I suppose we're meant to think that C-3PO could have yapped about sensitive information, but... everybody in this galaxy is clearly able to understand R2's binary language, so his inability to speak Basic ("English") doesn't really guarantee his silence. Do they just trust that R2 is better at keeping secrets than 3PO?



It was because Artoo wasn't blundering around or constantly tripping over himself into problematic situations or ending up captured 99% of the time that which happens for C3PO. Artoo maintaining memories of everything happening in the PT and OT and throughout the ST is a testament he's are one constant witness to everything.


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## Deathbringerpt (Dec 28, 2019)

Fang said:


> He literally gives off the facial expression of not caring there.



Dude's pretty alright there, his overall disposition IRL is an image of being fed up with shit - look at anything he does nowadays. You have clearly not seen a movie where he truly does not give a shit like Firewall.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 28, 2019)




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## Fang (Dec 28, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Dude's pretty alright there, his overall disposition IRL is an image of being fed up with shit - look at anything he does nowadays. You have clearly not seen a movie where he truly does not give a shit like Firewall.



Ford has never given a shit about Star Wars even during the OT. I've seen the interviews, his acting, his personal documentaries, everything, he gives off all the signs of body language, facial expressions, and disregard of not really caring to be there in TFA for anything other than a big check and he's made no secret of this either.

Also on an unrelated note:

>71% drop for TROS from its first Friday to the second one

Not QUITE as bad as TLJ but at the same time its still looking to generate less total gross than TLJ did.


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## Deathbringerpt (Dec 28, 2019)

Fang said:


> Ford has never given a shit about Star Wars even during the OT. I've seen the interviews, his acting, his personal documentaries, everything, he gives off all the signs of body language, facial expressions, and disregard of not really caring to be there in TFA for anything other than a big check and he's made no secret of this either.



I've literally posted that a few posts before - I'm not talking about whether he cares about SW as a work of fiction, which he doesn't, I'm talking about whether he cares to actually play the part of the movie he's playing and he's putting more effort into actual acting in TFA than in other god awful movies he's made of late. If you think this is him not caring, you've seen nothing yet.


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## Pilaf (Dec 28, 2019)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Dude's pretty alright there, his overall disposition IRL is an image of being fed up with shit - look at anything he does nowadays. You have clearly not seen a movie where he truly does not give a shit like Firewall.




I mean he couldn't be assed to get a haircut to match his TFA look. 

"Dad, why do you have a mullet?"
"Eh."

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Dec 28, 2019)

I have a question --

They've established that over exerting "the force" causes you to disappear, so what exactly did Obi Wan do to go through the same fate? Episode 3 claims that Qui Gon learned the force ghost technique and it can be insinuated that's what Obi Wan chose to do, but... then how does Anakin appear as a force ghost in Episode 6? Is this a continuity error? Am I missing something? Qui Gon didn't vanish... unless I'm remembering his death incorrectly... so it can't just be a Jedi thing. 

Obviously the true answer is "We need that PG rating, dammit!", but I'm wondering if it's ever been explained.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 28, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I have a question --
> 
> They've established that over exerting "the force" causes you to disappear, so what exactly did Obi Wan do to go through the same fate? Episode 3 claims that Qui Gon learned the force ghost technique and it can be insinuated that's what Obi Wan chose to do, but... then how does Anakin appear as a force ghost in Episode 6? Is this a continuity error? Am I missing something? Qui Gon didn't vanish... unless I'm remembering his death incorrectly... so it can't just be a Jedi thing.
> 
> Obviously the true answer is "We need that PG rating, dammit!", but I'm wondering if it's ever been explained.



I think there's a difference between being one with the force and being a full blown ghost...


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## Blade (Dec 28, 2019)




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## Pilaf (Dec 28, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I have a question --
> 
> They've established that over exerting "the force" causes you to disappear, so what exactly did Obi Wan do to go through the same fate? Episode 3 claims that Qui Gon learned the force ghost technique and it can be insinuated that's what Obi Wan chose to do, but... then how does Anakin appear as a force ghost in Episode 6? Is this a continuity error? Am I missing something? Qui Gon didn't vanish... unless I'm remembering his death incorrectly... so it can't just be a Jedi thing.
> 
> Obviously the true answer is "We need that PG rating, dammit!", but I'm wondering if it's ever been explained.




It's explained at the end of Revenge of the Sith that Qui-Gonn learned to retain his identity in the Force. He then taught Yoda and Obi-Wan the technique. Most Jedi who die don't. Qui-Gonn's body was destroyed so he didn't fully complete the ritual but managed to retain a voice in the Force without manifesting a full ghost. He learned this from the Whills. Yoda also learns some of their techniques in Clone Wars.


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## Mider T (Dec 28, 2019)




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## Mider T (Dec 28, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> He learned this from the Whills.


Who?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2019)

pathetic compared to Endgame


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## MartialHorror (Dec 28, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> It's explained at the end of Revenge of the Sith that Qui-Gonn learned to retain his identity in the Force. He then taught Yoda and Obi-Wan the technique. Most Jedi who die don't. Qui-Gonn's body was destroyed so he didn't fully complete the ritual but managed to retain a voice in the Force without manifesting a full ghost. He learned this from the Whills. Yoda also learns some of their techniques in Clone Wars.



What about Anakin?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> What about Anakin?


good question
wookiepedia says Vader learned of the technique from Sidious (?), and upon death - Yoda and Kenobi also "helped" his spirit "complete" the ghost form

not sure how true


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 28, 2019)

I say all this is bullshit and can be completely ignored and changed depending on writers .

Stars Wars lore has always been poorly planned..even by Lucas himself..therefore pliable.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 28, 2019)

I've always gone with it being one of the benefits of being the Chosen One.



Fang said:


> It was because Artoo wasn't blundering around or constantly tripping over himself into problematic situations or ending up captured 99% of the time that which happens for C3PO. Artoo maintaining memories of everything happening in the PT and OT and throughout the ST is a testament he's are one constant witness to everything.



Another thing that annoys me about the sequels. R2 is per Lucas himself the narrator, yet he gets sidelined in these movies in favor of BB-8.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 28, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> good question
> wookiepedia says Vader learned of the technique from Sidious (?), and upon death - Yoda and Kenobi also "helped" his spirit "complete" the ghost form
> 
> not sure how true



That sort of makes Obi Wan's "Strike me down and I'll become more powerful than you could possibly imagine" lose its power... and Vader's subsequent clear confusion all the more befuddling. 



~Gesy~ said:


> I say all this is bullshit and can be completely ignored and changed depending on writers .
> 
> Stars Wars lore has always been poorly planned..even by Lucas himself..therefore pliable.



Pretty much. This is honestly why I don't mind when the NT introduces some new force related power, as it doesn't seem like the force ever really made much sense. Oh, it heals now? Okay.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 28, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> That's your interpretation . I was on their side watching and thought he was being naive .


I think you need a stat check on what being naive is.


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## Sunrider (Dec 28, 2019)

Zhen Chan said:


> (little bastard sticks his connector in everything)


Such a little bimbot, I love it. 



Mider T said:


> You know what's funny though?  USB connectors change shape every few years but R2 is almost a century old and can still plug into things with his one...thing.


I recently had a back and forth on twitter with a dude who _could not get over_ the fact that Sidious traded clones troops for cheaper, more disposable civilian-based force.

And I'm just like 'buddy a whole spacefaring galaxy with ten kinds of automation still trades sentient creatures as labor. _None_ of this shit makes sense if you think about it too hard.'


mr_shadow said:


> Do they just trust that R2 is better at keeping secrets than 3PO?


Come on now, this is C-3PO we're talking about. 

Would you trust them with anything more secure than a shopping list?


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## Fang (Dec 28, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I say all this is bullshit and can be completely ignored and changed depending on writers .
> 
> Stars Wars lore has always been poorly planned..even by Lucas himself..therefore pliable.



I don't think you know what lore is in this context.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 29, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Who?



The Whills are apparently the "gods" of the Star Wars universe. They were mentioned in Lucas' first draft of A New Hope, but he later took them out and changed the Force to an impersonal world soul like the Hindu Brahma.

He's apparently been trying to re-introduce them over the years, though. They were back in his initial drafts for Episodes VII to IX, the ones that Disney threw out.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 29, 2019)

Fang said:


> I don't think you know what lore is in this context.


Whatever it is it's as well put together as the Millennium Falcon .


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## Fang (Dec 29, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Whatever it is it's as well put together as the Millennium Falcon .



So perfectly? Neato.


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## Mider T (Dec 29, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> pathetic compared to Endgame


So is literally every other movie ever by that metric.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 29, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Whatever it is it's as well put together as the Millennium Falcon .


*looks at blueprints*


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## Pilaf (Dec 29, 2019)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> good question
> wookiepedia says Vader learned of the technique from Sidious (?), and upon death - Yoda and Kenobi also "helped" his spirit "complete" the ghost form
> 
> not sure how true




That sounds like something someone literally pulled out of their ass. I always kinda felt like it was because he destroyed the Emperor and redeemed himself that he was granted a special boon from the spirits of past Jedi or something. It's unspoken and not elaborated upon. 

The Emperor as he's presented in Lucas' vision is unable to cheat death. He murdered his master but didn't learn the secret, and lied to Anakin about knowing it. He absolutely cannot cheat death and clung to life in his withered body long enough to find someone to carry on his legacy - aka Luke. His whole plan was to corrupt Luke to the Dark Side, whether that meant he struck Palpatine down and was trained by Vader or whether he struck Vader down and took his place. Palpatine wouldn't teach someone how to cheat death even if he knew it. He's too greedy and selfish.


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## Mider T (Dec 29, 2019)




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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 29, 2019)

So no Billy for Star Wars this time huh?


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## Pilaf (Dec 29, 2019)

tHe FaNs ArE tOxIc


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## dr_shadow (Dec 29, 2019)

I'm kind of disappointed that, in the live-action movies at least, we never saw more impressive Force feats out of Anakin.

We imply in Episode I that he has the potential to be stronger than Yoda (!), but we never really see him do anything that lends credence to that. Adult, healthy Anakin just seems to be slightly faster and more agile than a regular Jedi, but there are no "Omega-level" Force-bending feats.

You could have still kept continuity with the OT by saying that Vader has to always devote a portion of his attention to keeping himself alive and therefore can't tap his full potential. Then you go full telekinetic madness in the prequels.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 29, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I'm kind of disappointed that, in the live-action movies at least, we never saw more impressive Force feats out of Anakin.
> 
> We imply in Episode I that he has the potential to be stronger than Yoda (!), but we never really see him do anything that lends credence to that. Adult, healthy Anakin just seems to be slightly faster and more agile than a regular Jedi, but there are no "Omega-level" Force-bending feats.
> 
> You could have still kept continuity with the OT by saying that Vader has to always devote a portion of his attention to keeping himself alive and therefore can't tap his full potential. Then you go full telekinetic madness in the prequels.


but  non-burned ep3 Anakin hadnt yet fully realized all of his raw force potential
and on Mustafar he lost it forever

what you want was in EU with older Luke


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 29, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> I'm kind of disappointed that, in the live-action movies at least, we never saw more impressive Force feats out of Anakin.
> 
> We imply in Episode I that he has the potential to be stronger than Yoda (!), but we never really see him do anything that lends credence to that. Adult, healthy Anakin just seems to be slightly faster and more agile than a regular Jedi, but there are no "Omega-level" Force-bending feats.
> 
> You could have still kept continuity with the OT by saying that Vader has to always devote a portion of his attention to keeping himself alive and therefore can't tap his full potential. Then you go full telekinetic madness in the prequels.


Yeah. He was about even Obi-Wan who wasn't on Yoda's level.

 could be said that his arrogance  and other emotional  deficiencies weakened him.


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## Gledania (Dec 29, 2019)

I enjoyed this film so much. Greatest film ever made by humanity. Also the final kiss was amazing , as much as the Palpatine kamehameha to the sky 






 hope they wont make a starwars 10


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## Gledania (Dec 29, 2019)

Hey ... they will *not *make a starwars 10 ... right ???


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 29, 2019)

Gledania said:


> Hey ... they will *not *make a starwars 10 ... right ???


Nope. But a new trilogy is in the works.


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## hcheng02 (Dec 29, 2019)

Just surfing reviews on The Rise of Skywalker and I came across a doozy of a comment. This perfectly encapsulates the mindset of the far left regarding how they viewed The Last Jedi and Luke Skywalker's characterization.





> Talking with my brother last week I realize why I go so hard to the wall to defend The Last Jedi, even though structurally the movie has a bunch of problems; it's not just that I'm mostly onboard with its intentions even when the execution is flawed (Canto Bight is super important! Just it juts out of the movie in a broken way; it would have worked better had Johnson directed the first movie, where it would have fit much better.) It's more than that, it's this:
> 
> *The Last Jedi was the first (and only) Star Wars movie to say to white men: this isn't about you.
> 
> ...


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Dec 29, 2019)




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## Pilaf (Dec 29, 2019)

mr_shadow said:


> You could have still kept continuity with the OT by saying that Vader has to always devote a portion of his attention to keeping himself alive and therefore can't tap his full potential. Then you go full telekinetic madness in the prequels.




GL explains this in the DVD commentary for Revenge of the Sith. If Vader had remained whole and unburnt, he would have dwarfed the Emperor and Yoda in ability in a few years. Sidious himself lampshades this via dialogue. "Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

Then he loses his limbs and is horribly burned and disfigured, which reduced his midichlorian count and ability to tap into the Force at will. He goes from maxing out at like 120% of Sidious to being 80% on a good day. He's broken. He's not what the Emperor wanted or envisioned. Hence why he's excited to meet Luke, who is like Anakin in his prime, potential-wise. Of course, the fact that Luke is whole spiritually is the exact reason he can resist the temptation of the Dark Side.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Dec 29, 2019)

I just returned from watching episode IX. I don't get the negativity. You can definitely recognize the sight of a troubled production but the movie takes the bad hand the previous two movies left it and manages to at least be adequate. Its probably the best movie of the new trilogy even if that has just as much to do with the failings of the previous movies as with the merits of this one. 

Its a bit of a mess but a fun mess. Unlike the Force Awakens this movie has a soul and unlike the Last Jedi its soul isn't grumpy and unpleasant. It also lacks the more questionable technical aspects of the Last Jedi like admiral Pinkhair or the weird casino filler. 

I'd say episode IX is the first time there really was a little bit of merit in the sequel trilogy. What doesn't work tends to be inherited from the previous two movies. Palpatine's return is a little silly but the First Order immediately falling into the background does indicate what a pathetic villain organisation it really was. Silly as he is Palphatine is at least an improvement over that bunch of losers.


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## TrueG 37 (Dec 29, 2019)

Is it too late to shit on this movie and the rest of the sequel trilogy?jk it's never too late .


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 29, 2019)

TrueG 37 said:


> Is it too late to shit on this movie and the rest of the sequel trilogy?jk it's never too late .


A massive dumpster these sequels been my negga


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## U mad bro (Dec 29, 2019)

Star Wars fans have unrealistic expectations for their franchise if you want to keep it 100. They want a Nolan dark knight level trilogy. But that will never happen one it makes too much money. So the priority is ass in seats. So tones like cheap marvel comedy will dominate the films. Two it’s a media political battleground. People are fighting constant political battles over it. I have had a shitload of Tran done wrong articles lol. Overall the main franchise is too big to be original.


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## TrueG 37 (Dec 29, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> *Star Wars fans have unrealistic expectations for their franchise *if you want to keep it 100. They want a Nolan dark knight level trilogy. But that will never happen one it makes too much money. So the priority is ass in seats. So tones like cheap marvel comedy will dominate the films. Two it’s a media political battleground. People are fighting constant political battles over it. I have had a shitload of Tran done wrong articles lol. Overall the main franchise is too big to be original.


Nah I just wanted a decent movie. I'm not even that huge of a Star wars fan. I just watched the movies and kept track and occasionally bought some comics,eu stuff, cartoons and books. That's it.  Instead I get a pile of shit by Jar Jar and Roundhead.


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 29, 2019)

Yeah the mandalorian praise shows sw fans aren't actually _that_ picky.


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## U mad bro (Dec 29, 2019)

TrueG 37 said:


> Nah I just wanted a decent movie. I'm not even that huge of a Star wars fan. I just watched the movies and kept track and occasionally bought some *comics,eu stuff, cartoons and books. *That's it.  Instead I get a pile of shit by Jar Jar and Roundhead.


Everything is really what I meant by standards. Star Wars side stories shit on all the films. The fans be expecting the movies to hang with that standard. I doubt it happens. Legit have to fail miserably at the box office for them to reevaluate their way of making films. Dc being an example of that lol


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## MartialHorror (Dec 29, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Star Wars fans have unrealistic expectations for their franchise if you want to keep it 100. They want a Nolan dark knight level trilogy. But that will never happen one it makes too much money. So the priority is ass in seats. So tones like cheap marvel comedy will dominate the films. Two it’s a media political battleground. People are fighting constant political battles over it. I have had a shitload of Tran done wrong articles lol. Overall the main franchise is too big to be original.



I agree with this, although I'd argue that the NT is darker than the OT. I think it might've been a little more financially stable if it geared more to younger audiences.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 29, 2019)

*Star Wars: General Leia CGI Issues Led to Rose Tico Cuts*


Ah, sure.


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## U mad bro (Dec 30, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> I agree with this, although I'd argue that the NT is darker than the OT. I think it might've been a little more financially stable if it geared more to younger audiences.


Meh on a big screen doubt they will ever do that. I will give it up to the hardcore star war fans. Disney tried to give the trilogy the marvel package. They said get that wack shit out of here. Mandalorian level story telling or nothing 


Comic Book Guy said:


> *Star Wars: General Leia CGI Issues Led to Rose Tico Cuts*
> 
> 
> Ah, sure.


I find this funny it’s damn near a unified opinion her part was dumb. Yet people acting surprised she wasn’t there. They arguing just for the fuck of it lol


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## MartialHorror (Dec 30, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Meh on a big screen doubt they will ever do that. I will give it up to the hardcore star war fans. Disney tried to give the trilogy the marvel package. They said get that wack shit out of here. Mandalorian level story telling or nothing
> 
> I find this funny it’s damn near a unified opinion her part was dumb. Yet people acting surprised she wasn’t there. They arguing just for the fuck of it lol



I think at least toy sales, etc. probably wouldn't have declined, but it would be tricky, as childrens entertainment is so different now than it was in the 1980's or even the 1990's.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 30, 2019)

Another thing I liked about "Rise of Skywalker" --

The knew General dude... whose name I can't remember, but he more-or-less replaced Hux... He was a pretty intense figure and while he could never replace Grand Moff Tarkin (no one can replace Peter Cushing), I thought he was pretty cool.

Of course, it would've been better if the script didn't feel so rushed and we could see more of him/


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 30, 2019)




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## Pilaf (Dec 30, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Everything is really what I meant by standards. Star Wars side stories shit on all the films. The fans be expecting the movies to hang with that standard. I doubt it happens. Legit have to fail miserably at the box office for them to reevaluate their way of making films. Dc being an example of that lol




No, not exactly. SOME of the side stuff is really good. Clone Wars obviously was so integral to the story Disney kept it canon. Stuff like the Timothy Zhan books from the nineties illustrate the very best of the EU. They make the characters we know and love struggle with new issues without shitting all over their characterization. They don't turn Luke into some bitter old fuck living on a water planet, or Leia into Superman.


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## Pilaf (Dec 30, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 30, 2019)

She liked Last Jedi a lot...this should be good.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 30, 2019)

Jeez an hour? Guess I'll treat it as a podcast and listen to it in the gym.


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## Jake CENA (Dec 30, 2019)

it would have been better if Dave Chappelle played Finn's role

he can smoke intergalactic crack while slaying some fools and we will never get tired of it!


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## Fang (Dec 30, 2019)

Its still going to under perform to TLJ. A 71% drop its second Friday after opening is massive, not as massive as a 76% like with TLJ but it was already trending with a much smaller opening compared to its predecessor. I don't think its going to hit the 1.3 billion mark for the life time gross still.


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## Pilaf (Dec 30, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Jeez an hour? Guess I'll treat it as a podcast and listen to it in the gym.




She breaks down like 30 plot holes lol


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## Mider T (Dec 30, 2019)

Gesy you don't go to the gym, stop it.


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## Vault (Dec 30, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Jeez an hour? Guess I'll treat it as a podcast and listen to it in the gym.


Gesy always lying


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## U mad bro (Dec 30, 2019)

Pilaf said:


> No, not exactly. SOME of the side stuff is really good. Clone Wars obviously was so integral to the story Disney kept it canon. Stuff like the Timothy Zhan books from the nineties illustrate the very best of the EU. They make the characters we know and love struggle with new issues without shitting all over their characterization. They don't turn Luke into some bitter old fuck living on a water planet, or Leia into Superman.


You mean those same books Lucas signed off but forgot they existed as canon. Which is ironic Disney snuffed those books. But still stole ideas from it. Evil male Jedi Solo. Good female Jedi. Kylo was a wack version of the son from the old books. Rey was the wack version of the twin. Which comes to the point Finn is pretty much the only real original character in this entire trilogy lol


Fang said:


> Its still going to under perform to TLJ. A 71% drop its second Friday after opening is massive, not as massive as a 76% like with TLJ but it was already trending with a much smaller opening compared to its predecessor. I don't think its going to hit the 1.3 billion mark for the life time gross still.


This shit going to make money. One people too caught up internet shit. People don’t have many options in the movie right especially when it comes to big releases. So this movie is going to rile all the way until bad boys... I mean until the end of the month of January ​


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 30, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Gesy you don't go to the gym, stop it.





Vault said:


> Gesy always lying


Me E-Friends always doubt me


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## Vault (Dec 30, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> Me E-Friends always doubt me


Niggga with your track record


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 30, 2019)

If gesy used to run track he's probably in good shape.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Dec 30, 2019)

How do you guys think it should have ended to at least be an average movie?


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## Jake CENA (Dec 30, 2019)

Ultra Instinct Vegito said:


> How do you guys think it should have ended to at least be an average movie?



Rey, Kylo and Finn all dying painfully in the end would have saved this trilogy


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 30, 2019)

Whoever said rey should have turned to the dark side in last jedi and kylo should have turned to the light side and then you have the two of them trying to lure each other back in tros, I like that angle because you have a former dark side user in kylo who could make a good argument why rey should abandon it and you also have a former light side user in rey who could make a good argument why kylo should abandon it.

I don't know what could have turned rey to the dark side, but if you were planning out a trilogy and not just winging it movie to movie, above seems like a fun angle. Hell, maybe luke could have fucked up with rey just like he did with kylo and that's why she turns darkside, he's just that bad of a teacher


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 30, 2019)

No Palpatine.  It should have been about Rebels vs. First Order.

Not Rey Skywalker on some Indiana Jones quest


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 30, 2019)

I dunno I think someone theorized rey was a sith user after force awakens because she used some move only sith use. This might have been something jj was planning. Not palpatine because that's stupid, but rey being sith.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 30, 2019)

reiatsuflow said:


> Whoever said rey should have turned to the dark side in last jedi and kylo should have turned to the light side and then you have the two of them trying to lure each other back in tros, I like that angle because you have a former dark side user in kylo who could make a good argument why rey should abandon it and you also have a former light side user in rey who could make a good argument why kylo should abandon it.
> 
> I don't know what could have turned rey to the dark side, but if you were planning out a trilogy and not just winging it movie to movie, above seems like a fun angle. Hell, maybe luke could have fucked up with rey just like he did with kylo and that's why she turns darkside, he's just that bad of a teacher



I don't know if I'd go that far. But the message should be that.."both sides are in all of us. And both sides are important to the...force ecosystem "

And force users should learn to balance both instead of repressing a significant part of themselves.

Reactions: Like 1


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## reiatsuflow (Dec 30, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't know if I'd go that far. But the message should be that.."both sides are in all of us. And both sides are important to the...force ecosystem "
> 
> And force users should learn to balance both instead of repressing a significant part of themselves.



That would be cool and it could have played into luke's complex too. Like maybe he was struggling with that, trying to explore the dark side in himself instead of repressing it, trying to understand it and his inability to understand the dark side is why he failed kylo, and _that's_ why he ended up going into solitude. Like a monk trying to find enlightenment instead of a bitter old failure man.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 30, 2019)

Fang said:


> Its still going to under perform to TLJ. A 71% drop its second Friday after opening is massive, not as massive as a 76% like with TLJ but it was already trending with a much smaller opening compared to its predecessor. I don't think its going to hit the 1.3 billion mark for the life time gross still.


Add to the fact that ROS opened later than TLJ and had a major help opening so close to Christmas which gave all the Disney SW flicks a boost so it only losing slightly less than the previous flick is not something to write home about. Despite it's Christmas bonus it still falls behind TLJ in it's two week streek which means it's already peaked earlier than the rest of the main trilogy which tells us it is only going to get worse as New Years and January come along as SW flicks make the most in their first week or two and than fall off big around that time.


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## U mad bro (Dec 30, 2019)

I hate last Jedi but Rian Johnson had a point about a lot in the movies needing to change in hindsight. I agreed with breaking away from the bloodline shit. However he was trash in his execution. In fact Rebels was the sequel with all the elements he wanted to introduce. An unknown Jedi of unknown mediocre origins. So was his master a mediocre padawan that became a master. Unconventional villains and side characters. Sabine a way better Finn to be honest.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 30, 2019)

just keep Baby Yeed as far away from Sequel Trilogy as possible


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## Kuromaku (Dec 31, 2019)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't know if I'd go that far. But the message should be that.."both sides are in all of us. And both sides are important to the...force ecosystem "
> 
> And force users should learn to balance both instead of repressing a significant part of themselves.



That'd be pretty much implied by the ending of ROTJ, and even pops up again the the _Clone Wars_ series when discussing where the Jedi went wrong. It's even made clear by Lucas that a person needs to acknowledge their darker Jungian Shadow but not fall prey to despair or temptation instead of ignoring or repressing it (not to be confused with the Grey Jedi BS where you need to use both sides of the Force).


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## Pliskin (Dec 31, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> I hate last Jedi but Rian Johnson had a point about a lot in the movies needing to change in hindsight. I agreed with breaking away from the bloodline shit. However he was trash in his execution. In fact Rebels was the sequel with all the elements he wanted to introduce. An unknown Jedi of unknown mediocre origins. So was his master a mediocre padawan that became a master. Unconventional villains and side characters. Sabine a way better Finn to be honest.



Agreed, the last Jedi had in it the core the roots of what sw needs to be if it ever wanted to grow beyound fan service and a trip down nostalgia lane.


Sadly it was executed shoddily.

Rise if skywalker otoh wad just like a cheap best of star wars rehash, without any real story to tell. Forgettable and not even bad enough to be interesting.


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## MShadows (Dec 31, 2019)

Still a better love story than shitty Rey x Kylo


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## Blocky (Dec 31, 2019)

Was there any character or story in the Legends canon where they came from nowhere or nobody but still able to raise above the villains regardless? Trying to find an example on how a character like Rey could had been improved on.

And they are not related to the Skywalkers or Palpatine too.


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## Pilaf (Dec 31, 2019)

is a poster boy example of a character who isn't really from anywhere but becomes a great Jedi Knight. 

He's what Finn SHOULD HAVE been the canon example of - a reformed Storm Trooper with Force sensitivity who became a good guy and defeated the big bad.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 31, 2019)

You know Finn was probably suppose to be a force user when this whole trilogy was drafted but the Chinese market told Disney no, so now he’s just random side character.



reiatsuflow said:


> If gesy used to run track he's probably in good shape.



He only runs down Ice cream trucks @~Gesy~

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kuromaku (Dec 31, 2019)

Blocky said:


> Was there any character or story in the Legends canon where they came from nowhere or nobody but still able to raise above the villains regardless? Trying to find an example on how a character like Rey could had been improved on.
> 
> And they are not related to the Skywalkers or Palpatine too.



Keep in mind that Star Wars has never actually been about power levels. Luke wins by holding onto his goodness and his faith in his father. Anakin fulfills his destiny not by being powerful, but by knowingly sacrificing his life to save his son. Obi-Wan manages to take down the Chosen One in a duel.

Basically, don't make it about power level bullshit and remember that good wins by doing what's right.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 31, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Keep in mind that Star Wars has never actually been about power levels. Luke wins by holding onto his goodness and his faith in his father. Anakin fulfills his destiny not by being powerful, but by knowingly sacrificing his life to save his son. Obi-Wan manages to take down the Chosen One in a duel.
> 
> Basically, don't make it about power level bullshit and remember that good wins by doing what's right.


Wron, Luke clearly needed to be strong enough to stand a chance against Vader since the last time he got his ass kicked.
Vader was not strong enough to kill the emperor on his own which is why he needed to take him out by surprise and that still cost him his life in the end. Obi-wan fought a mentally unstable Anakin who was nowhere in the right state of mind to fight and even than you see Kenobi retreat and get pushed back throughout the fight until he gets the high ground.

Just because power levels are not the main story point does not change the fact they still factor in.


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## Kuromaku (Dec 31, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Wron, Luke clearly needed to be strong enough to stand a chance against Vader since the last time he got his ass kicked.
> Vader was not strong enough to kill the emperor on his own which is why he needed to take him out by surprise and that still cost him his life in the end. Obi-wan fought a mentally unstable Anakin who was nowhere in the right state of mind to fight and even than you see Kenobi retreat and get pushed back throughout the fight until he gets the high ground.
> 
> Just because power levels are not the main story point does not change the fact they still factor in.



And yet all that has nothing to do with the underlying theme of good not always winning but prevailing at the end because evil finds ways to do itself in. Luke grows as a person and Jedi, allowing him to face his father both emotionally and physically, but he only prevails because he overcomes temptation in the form of the easy power boost the Dark Side offered, and is able to reach Anakin. Anakin screws up against Obi-Wan because his arrogance and declining mental state left him blind to the reality of his situation, and he keeps those blinders on for years until Luke gets through. He doesn't take down the Sith by being super special in terms of power levels, but because the most evil person in the galaxy didn't understand that just as selfish love could damn Vader, selfless love could redeem him. This isn't about stuff you argue in the Battledome, but the greater themes that allowed the franchise to resonate beyond idiots obsessed with power levels.


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## Blocky (Dec 31, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Keep in mind that Star Wars has never actually been about power levels. Luke wins by holding onto his goodness and his faith in his father. Anakin fulfills his destiny not by being powerful, but by knowingly sacrificing his life to save his son. Obi-Wan manages to take down the Chosen One in a duel.
> 
> Basically, don't make it about power level bullshit and remember that good wins by doing what's right.


I wasn’t talking about power levels?

I just want a character example in the Legends canon on how a nobody can overcome their struggles and become somebody other then what Rey was supposed to be portrayed  as in the TLJ

The sequels might had done its themes better if it wasn’t how messy the plot or characters was.


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## U mad bro (Dec 31, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> Keep in mind that Star Wars has never actually been about power levels. Luke wins by holding onto his goodness and his faith in his father. Anakin fulfills his destiny not by being powerful, but by knowingly sacrificing his life to save his son. Obi-Wan manages to take down the Chosen One in a duel.
> 
> Basically, don't make it about power level bullshit and remember that good wins by doing what's right.


The canon material had the Jedi order on their prime differentiated by rank. Even Anakin and Obi wan Jedi skills depicted that is a fact. They even depicted the difference in power on the sith side. Power levels exist in most of the series lol


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 31, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> And yet all that has nothing to do with the underlying theme of good not always winning but prevailing at the end because evil finds ways to do itself in.


Yeah no they kinda do. You can harp on about "muh themes" all you want but they mean nothing if the character in question did not the strength required to make the actions happen.


Kuromaku said:


> Luke grows as a person and Jedi, allowing him to face his father both emotionally and physically, but he only prevails because he overcomes temptation in the form of the easy power boost the Dark Side offered, and is able to reach Anakin.


Smashing the shit out if Vader and cutting his hand off had a significant influence on that so once again you are wrong.


Kuromaku said:


> Anakin screws up against Obi-Wan because his arrogance and declining mental state left him blind to the reality of his situation, and he keeps those blinders on for years until Luke gets through.


No he was winning UNTIL Obi-wan got the high ground, than his arrogance did him in.


Kuromaku said:


> He doesn't take down the Sith by being super special in terms of power levels


He doesn't take them down by just talk no jutsu either.


Kuromaku said:


> but because the most evil person in the galaxy didn't understand that just as selfish love could damn Vader, selfless love could redeem him. This isn't about stuff you argue in the Battledome, but the greater themes that allowed the franchise to resonate beyond idiots obsessed with power levels.


I know you a stingy about anything to do with power levels because you can't see them in any way besides the DBZ way but only an idiot would deny them playing a factor in any fiction involving something like the force. If Luke was as weak as he was in Empire when he fought Vader again he would have failed and died since he would not be strong enough to beat Vader or he would have been tortured and corrupted by the emperor.

I know damn well Luke reaching to Vader matters most but his growing power played a part like everything else so quit pretending power levels never mattered in Star Wars because it is simply incorrect.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 31, 2019)

Huey Freeman said:


> You know Finn was probably suppose to be a force user when this whole trilogy was drafted but the Chinese market told Disney no, so now he’s just random side character.
> 
> 
> 
> He only runs down Ice cream trucks @~Gesy~



While they do seem to set it up multiple times in TFA, I doubt the 'Chinese market' had much to do with it, as his role seemed more sizeable in ROS than TLJ. I'd personally assume either --

1) It was all a red herring, as Finn is set up to be the lead, only for Rey to turn out to be the Jedi in training.

2) Rian Johnson just didn't have anything to do with him, so Finn being sidelined in general torpedoed those ideas. 

I actually don't think the main trilogy tried that hard to cater to China, as they didn't really hire any Chinese stars. "Rogue One" seems to have been the only real effort of breaking Star Wars into that market using 'catering' methods. They even pointedly hired an Asian American actress, who'd have absolutely no drawing power in China.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 31, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> While they do seem to set it up multiple times in TFA, I doubt the 'Chinese market' had much to do with it, as his role seemed more sizeable in ROS than TLJ. I'd personally assume either --
> 
> 1) It was all a red herring, as Finn is set up to be the lead, only for Rey to turn out to be the Jedi in training.
> 
> ...


Reason why I say the Chinese market had influence just look at the promotional posters throughout the series. In the US Finn was highlighted in the Chinese market they place him way into the foreground.

This isn’t anything new as Disney is pushing rehash Mulan (competely different story form the animated) and Shang Chi on Chinese New Year for those Chinese bucks


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Dec 31, 2019)




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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Dec 31, 2019)

Boyega's recent hilarious tweets almost make me forgive him for Pacific Rim 2.



Almost. But not really. Not yet.

Reactions: Like 1


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## creyzi4zb12 (Dec 31, 2019)

UtahCrip said:


> damn. hollywood stay trying to neuter the blacc man. should have known after billy dee aint fucc the princess bacc in the day. cant convince me she'd rather be kissing on her brother than getting that bbc.


Well, as the Jedi would say

“balance in the force”


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## Xebec (Dec 31, 2019)

Why is John trending?


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## Braiyan (Dec 31, 2019)

EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! said:


> Boyega's recent hilarious tweets almost make me forgive him for Pacific Rim 2.
> 
> 
> 
> Almost. But not really. Not yet.





Source: 

John out here living his best life and giving zero fucks.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 31, 2019)

As for power levels, it's definitely a thing, but it's also not a thing one should look into too much.

Like how Dooku is able to beat up Anakin and Obi Wan, but then quickly loses to Anakin in the rematch, who is more-or-less equal to Obi Wan. How strong the characters is ultimately rooted in what the plot demands at the moment. 

Otherwise, it's pointless to compare, as we've rarely been given the opportunity to see people go out. How strong was Luke in TLJ? Was he as powerful as Snoke? As Palpatine? Was Snoke comparable to Palpatine? Had Rey and Kylo surpassed Snoke by the time RoS took place? How does one compare?


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 31, 2019)



Reactions: Like 2


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## U mad bro (Dec 31, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> As for power levels, it's definitely a thing, but it's also not a thing one should look into too much.
> 
> Like how Dooku is able to beat up Anakin and Obi Wan, but then quickly loses to Anakin in the rematch, who is more-or-less equal to Obi Wan. How strong the characters is ultimately rooted in what the plot demands at the moment.
> 
> Otherwise, it's pointless to compare, as we've rarely been given the opportunity to see people go out. How strong was Luke in TLJ? Was he as powerful as Snoke? As Palpatine? Was Snoke comparable to Palpatine? Had Rey and Kylo surpassed Snoke by the time RoS took place? How does one compare?


People keep using Luke but a hard reality is Luke has never outright won a fight on screen. Vader was conflicted when facing him and was still winning.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 31, 2019)




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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 31, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## ~VK~ (Dec 31, 2019)

like i've said before john boyega is a real one. he's never been afraid to talk shit


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 31, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> People keep using Luke but a hard reality is Luke has never outright won a fight on screen. Vader was conflicted when facing him and was still winning.


What movie did you watch? Vader was getting his ass kicked all throughout the fight with Luke on the second Death Star.


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## U mad bro (Dec 31, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> What movie did you watch? Vader was getting his ass kicked all throughout the fight with Luke on the second Death Star.


That has more to do with Vader being conflicted. He was already being swayed back and forth. Which is why he first wanted to overthrow Palpatine.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 31, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> That has more to do with Vader being conflicted. He was already being swayed back and forth. Which is why he first wanted to overthrow Palpatine.


That shit does not matter when he was still swinging his blade at Luke's waist with his lightsaber off and Luke himself was holding back even more in that fight.


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 31, 2019)




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## U mad bro (Dec 31, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> That shit does not matter when he was still swinging his blade at Luke's waist with his lightsaber off and Luke himself was holding back even more in that fight.


If you wanna say he won that’s your opinion. That fight was more of mind game situation then a test of skills. That was what that dude earlier was referring to the good vs evil moral mystic shit override who is stronger.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 31, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> People keep using Luke but a hard reality is Luke has never outright won a fight on screen. Vader was conflicted when facing him and was still winning.



When you think about it, Luke was even considered expendable in the OT, considering how Yoda pretty much said if Luke dies, they always have Leia. This is actually why I was never bothered by Leia learning how to use the force in the NT, as the "there is another" line implies she's just as talented as he is.


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## U mad bro (Dec 31, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> When you think about it, Luke was even considered expendable in the OT, considering how Yoda pretty much said if Luke dies, they always have Leia. This is actually why I was never bothered by Leia learning how to use the force in the NT, as the "there is another" line implies she's just as talented as he is.


Nah that pissed me off a bit. Not because she had force powers because yeah Ot they even set that up in the movies. But him losing that  duel to her. That just compounded the fact during a time where he was supposed to shine he kept taking L’s.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 31, 2019)

U mad bro said:


> Nah that pissed me off a bit. Not because she had force powers because yeah Ot they even set that up in the movies. But him losing that  duel to her. That just compounded the fact during a time where he was supposed to shine he kept taking L’s.



It was sparring. Teachers normally hold back in sparring sessions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Dec 31, 2019)

Huey Freeman said:


> You know Finn was probably suppose to be a force user when this whole trilogy was drafted but the Chinese market told Disney no, so now he’s just random side character.
> 
> 
> 
> He only runs down Ice cream trucks @~Gesy~


Didn’t they actually have him removed from the official poster for The Force Awakens?

I know the Chinese are not fond of dark skin but that’s ridiculous.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 31, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> No it's a fact. Whose the one knocked down at the end of the fight, Vader or Luke? That's a clear win for him.
> 
> And like I told that dude he is full of shit. Luke's whole persuasion over Vader would never have worked out like it did if he was weaker. We see even when he is unwilling to fight he casually blocks Vader's blows and has no trouble with him and even gets some hits in where as Vader never lands a hit on Luke.



But alternatively, Luke's "power level" didn't mean shit when dealing with Palpatine, the final boss.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Dec 31, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> But alternatively, Luke's "power level" didn't mean shit when dealing with Palpatine, the final boss.



Palpatine was on a much higher level and stomped on Luke.
Him not fighting didn't effect the end result.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 31, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Didn’t they actually have him removed from the official poster for The Force Awakens?
> 
> I know the Chinese are not fond of dark skin but that’s ridiculous.


The poster he was highlighted in the Chinese poster the put him more into the foreground way to the back


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 31, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> But alternatively, Luke's "power level" didn't mean shit when dealing with Palpatine, the final boss.


What the fuck does this have anything to do with invalidating the fact Luke clearly beat Vader?


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## Kuromaku (Dec 31, 2019)

I'm going to put this here in as simple a manner as possible because overly big words might be confusing for some.

_Star Wars_ is not and has never been about power levels.

Why is this important?

Because SW is idealistic to a fault. Power levels imply that might makes right, that it all comes down to who's stronger or has the better weapon. This is why Luke and Anakin come out on top in ways that have nothing to do with power levels. Luke uses the Dark Side to overpower an already wavering Vader, but this is not shown as a good thing since the point of the fight wasn't for Luke to win martially, but emotionally and spiritually. Luke winning physically is his loss, and it could have gotten worse if he hadn't gotten a hold of himself.

It's faith and love that carry the day, not power. It's why Vader, the greatest pilot in the galaxy and second most powerful being around, fails to stop Luke from blowing up the Death Star, because Luke has faith in the Force and Han discovers a sense of idealism.

If you're focused on power levels and semantics, you're focusing on the wrong thing.

TL;DR: Chances are that you missed the point of _Return of the Jedi'_s climax if you think in terms of power levels and see Luke cutting off Vader's hand as a good thing.

Reactions: Like 2


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 31, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> I'm going to put this here in as simple a manner as possible because overly big words might be confusing for some.


Nothing about your posts has been anything complicated you're just purposely being obtuse over a minor issues and making it seem bigger to some than what it actually is.


Kuromaku said:


> _Star Wars_ is not and has never been about power levels.


"about" shows how badly you have read into this since no one has said it was all about power levels, only that they have been there in the plot as a factor in the story for why certain characters were able to do the things they were able to. Nothing more.


Kuromaku said:


> Why is this important?


You ask me, you're the one who brought up the issue in the first place and than persisted to go on a tirade about it instead of dropping it.


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## Pliskin (Dec 31, 2019)

Kuromaku said:


> I'm going to put this here in as simple a manner as possible because overly big words might be confusing for some.
> 
> _Star Wars_ is not and has never been about power levels.
> 
> ...


This times ten.


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## MartialHorror (Dec 31, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> What the fuck does this have anything to do with invalidating the fact Luke clearly beat Vader?



That it still amounted to nothing. 

In the original trilogy, Luke was still helpless against Palpatine, but was able to redeem his Father, who caught him by surprise. I'm not disagreeing with you on Luke defeating Vader, it's simply not the focus of the scene. 

In the prequels, Anakin was stronger than Obi Wan, but still lost.  

In the sequel trilogy, it happens both with Snoke's death and Rey defeating Kylo Ren. 

If anything, there seems to be a theme that the more powerful you are, the easier it is to lose focus and grow arrogant. I'm not saying that Star Wars doesn't have its own brand of power levels; I'm just saying that it becomes relatively unimportant. Contrast that with DBZ, where power levels generally determine the outcome of the fights. They are the crux of the storylines. But Star Wars always prioritizes the mental states. Even when Luke defeated Vader, it's not presented as a "Oh wow, Luke surpassed Vader" moment as much as it's treated like a "Oh no, Luke almost gave into hate" kind of moment.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 31, 2019)

MartialHorror said:


> That it still amounted to nothing.


Even ignoring how that itself is wrong since it did amount to something since at the end of the day Vader still killed the Emperor and Luke lived, the main point is that Luke bested Vader in combat and that counts as win. You people seem obsessed with pulling this semantics nonsense everywhere to undermine something so simple as "x beat y"  when all that is irrelevant because at the end of the day the question was never "did Luke ever win against Vader on every conceivable level both physically and emotionally?"  it's "Luke ever get a win" which he did as he beat Vader in combat. Can't get anymore simple than that.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 1, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Even ignoring how that itself is wrong since it did amount to something since at the end of the day Vader still killed the Emperor and Luke lived, the main point is that Luke bested Vader in combat and that counts as win. You people seem obsessed with pulling this semantics nonsense everywhere to undermine something so simple as "x beat y"  when all that is irrelevant because at the end of the day the question was never "did Luke ever win against Vader on every conceivable level both physically and emotionally?"  it's "Luke ever get a win" which he did as he beat Vader in combat. Can't get anymore simple than that.



Oi. So the Emperor's involvement does matter now? 

Like I said, I'm not disputing that Luke beat Vader. I'm not even trying to argue that Vader was conflicted or anything. I'm simply saying that when it comes to power levels, they're ultimately insignificant in the long run. If Luke couldn't beat Vader, would Vader have been able to kill him? Would that have changed the outcome with Palpatine? It's not about semantics, it's about storytelling.


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## Azaleia (Jan 1, 2020)

Maybe is because of the liquor, but Boyega you're the mvp, that was great lmao


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## Jake CENA (Jan 1, 2020)

Having a character like Rey randomly appear all of a sudden as a super force user is in of itself an insult to fans and intelligence.


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## Zef (Jan 1, 2020)

Lol, I heard John Boyega was tearing up Reylo on social media.



Good for him. Shit is more retarded then Anakin and Padme.


At least Anakin started out good when he and Padme hooked up. Kylo was trying to kill Rey repeatedly and was hurting her friends for like three fucking movies straight.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

The only MVP actor of the Sequel Trilogy for the new cast was Driver and maybe Oscar Isaac

That's it


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## Pilaf (Jan 1, 2020)

Did you just assume Baby Yoda's gender?


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## creyzi4zb12 (Jan 1, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Did you just assume Baby Yoda's gender?


Doctor Pershing refers to the baby as a “him” on episode 3


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## Pilaf (Jan 1, 2020)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> Doctor Pershing refers to the baby as a “him” on episode 3



Yeah but that's a white man authority figure. Y'all Woke Disney people shouldn't listen to him. Your benevolent corporate overlords give us such positive depictions as


Finn, the black ex-janitor

and

Poe, the Latino ex drug dealer


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## Pilaf (Jan 1, 2020)




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## ~VK~ (Jan 1, 2020)

Fang said:


> The only MVP actor of the Sequel Trilogy for the new cast was Driver and maybe Oscar Isaac
> 
> That's it


there are no MVPs here as far as acting goes. they're all given shit to work with so i can't even entirely blame the actors.

and while driver is nowadays the new award bait actor hollywood is sucking off i find him overrated both in the sequels and other movies tbh.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

~VK~ said:


> there are no MVPs here as far as acting goes. they're all given shit to work with so i can't even entirely blame the actors.
> 
> and while driver is nowadays the new award bait actor hollywood is sucking off i find him overrated both in the sequels and other movies tbh.



I'm not saying he's particular good by any metric. But I doubt 20 years down the line he won't have a career unlike Ridley whose already showing all the hallmarks of being a burnout crack head in the future. Driver has already made a substantial impact in other movies, Bogeya's future is debatable but you missed my point: at least I could visibly see him develop as an actor throughout the Sequels. Can't say the same for the rest of them.

Fisher was bad in all the movies for the Sequels.
Ford didn't give a shit in TFA or TROS.
Ridley was always terrible, "shit to work with" or not.
Isaac was okay.
Hamill was fine and same with Ian.


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## ~VK~ (Jan 1, 2020)

Fang said:


> Bogeya's future is debatable but you missed my point: at least I could visibly see him develop as an actor throughout the Sequels. Can't say the same for the rest of them.


I mean in boyega's case it's kinda hard to develop throughout the sequels when he's  constantly given the shitiest, repetitive and demeaning material to work with within the already shit trilogy. You're not exactly going to see his acting shine between the 50 or so times he yells out "REY!?!"


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

~VK~ said:


> I mean in boyega's case it's kinda hard to develop throughout the sequels when he's  constantly given the shitiest, repetitive and demeaning material to work with within the already shit trilogy. You're not exactly going to see his acting shine between the 50 or so times he yells out "REY!?!"



I didn't mean their characters, I meant their actual acting but fair point. In Finn/Bogeya's case, he was the modern-day step and fetch it token black guy. Which is pretty sad because both the OT and PT had at least Williams as the coolest man in the galaxy as Lando and the best lightsaber duelist and second strongest Jedi Master for Jackson with Windu.

No wonder he wants nothing to do with Star Wars anymore.

Well that and being shoehorned by crazy people into a gay relationship with Poe.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 1, 2020)

I've seen Boyega give good performances in other movies. And from the way he speaks on social media, it doesn't sound like his future hinges on this movie.

I think Daisy could be a bad actress tho. I didn't buy any of the emotions she tried to convey.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> I think Daisy could be a bad actress tho. I didn't buy any of the emotions she tried to convey.



Well that's because she never conveyed any damn emotions in the movies and her facial expressions were always somewhere between stern and looking like she's constipated or a surprised cat-fish. She definitely doesn't have a bright future despite Star Wars on her shoulders.


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## ~VK~ (Jan 1, 2020)

Fang said:


> Well that's because she *never conveyed any damn emotions in the movies and her facial expressions were always somewhere between stern and looking like she's constipated* or a surprised cat-fish. She definitely doesn't have a bright future despite Star Wars on her shoulders.


tbf that's exactly how i would describe robert pattinson throughout the twilight disaster and he's proven himself to not actually be a shit actor. actors can suffer greatly from terrible roles, direction, dialogue etc. she might not be as one dimensional as she seems.

or she might just be a shit actress. time will tell.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 1, 2020)

Fang said:


> Well that's because she never conveyed any damn emotions in the movies and her facial expressions were always somewhere between stern and looking like she's constipated or a surprised cat-fish. She definitely doesn't have a bright future despite Star Wars on her shoulders.


Well SW itself never really helped other actors go further in their careers and did more to type cast them with certain exceptions in certain fields so that combined with her choppy acting is really going to damage her career.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 1, 2020)

Just saw Boyega went on a warpath last night and shat on the new trilogy and its fans


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## Blocky (Jan 1, 2020)

I’ve really started a heated debate here huh?

That’s Star Wars for ya


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## Mider T (Jan 1, 2020)

Doesn't really work here, works for Cats though.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Doesn't really work here, works for Cats though.



Keep telling yourself that spread-sheet kun


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## Mider T (Jan 1, 2020)

Fang said:


> Keep telling yourself that spread-sheet kun


Don't need to, Box Office Theory tells me all that I need to know


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Don't need to, Box Office Theory tells me all that I need to know



The -71% loss on week 2 or the fact its going to not even hit TLJ's end of life gross? This movie is barely going to break a billion. 

And it probably cost Disney with the reshoots like upwards of 600+ million to market and produce. No one cares about it.


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## Mider T (Jan 1, 2020)

Fang said:


> The -71% loss on week 2 or the fact its going to not even hit TLJ's end of life gross? This movie is barely going to break a billion.
> 
> And it probably cost Disney with the reshoots like upwards of 600+ million to market and produce. No one cares about it.


Marketing doesn't go into a production budget, I dunno how many times I have to say this.  And I don't know where you're coming up with this $600 million figure.  
Still the highest grossing movie last month.  Cats however bombed.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Marketing doesn't go into a production budget,



I never said it did. I said it probably cost Disney "upwards" of 600+ million. We know the hard numbers from TFA which had a production budget of over 200+ million and a marketing budget of 220 million in 2015. We know Rogue One cost 260 million to produce in 2016 and the same marketing budget. TLJ would've cost at least as much between those two figures and Solo was a massive bomb that had constant reshoots, changed scripts and changes in production to make it work, so the money was constantly being put there to bloat its budget.

The fact we know Doomcock's insider was correct on all the rumors and leaks upwards of 4-5 months before the movie dropped and the change in different cuts would lead me to believe factually the movie's production budget alone is well past 300-400 million bucks and combined with marketing and advertising would be at least sitting in the same trend as its predecessors to combine to 600-800 million range. Its a financial disaster for Disney, they might break even after everything but I never said the entire production budget alone was 600 million.



> I dunno how many times I have to say this.



I don't know friend, it might be because you aren't paying attention to what I actually said.



> And I don't know where you're coming up with this $600 million figure.
> Still the highest grossing movie last month.  Cats however bombed.



This is coping in the same way Solo apologists defended it. "Well it was the highest grossing sci-fi heist movie of all time." I guess that's the defense you want to take then fine but:

This is a movie that should've pulled Endgame numbers,not under perform to TLJ in every way.


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## ~VK~ (Jan 1, 2020)




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## ~VK~ (Jan 1, 2020)

John boyega the hero we deserved


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 1, 2020)

They expected this to be the highest grossing movie of all time?


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 1, 2020)

~VK~ said:


> John boyega the hero we deserved


Agree. The pass couple of days has made me a fan. 

Straight shitting on the fanbase.


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## Mider T (Jan 1, 2020)

Fang said:


> I never said it did. I said it probably cost Disney "upwards" of 600+ million. We know the hard numbers from TFA which had a production budget of over 200+ million and a marketing budget of 220 million in 2015. We know Rogue One cost 260 million to produce in 2016 and the same marketing budget. TLJ would've cost at least as much between those two figures and Solo was a massive bomb that had constant reshoots, changed scripts and changes in production to make it work, so the money was constantly being put there to bloat its budget.
> 
> The fact we know Doomcock's insider was correct on all the rumors and leaks upwards of 4-5 months before the movie dropped and the change in different cuts would lead me to believe factually the movie's production budget alone is well past 300-400 million bucks and combined with marketing and advertising would be at least sitting in the same trend as its predecessors to combine to 600-800 million range. Its a financial disaster for Disney, they might break even after everything but I never said the entire production budget alone was 600 million.
> 
> ...


Endgame was the highest grossing movie of all time.  It's hilarious that not beating = failure of a movie.  Or not breaking $1 billion = failure of a movie.  Might as well call every movie a failure then.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Endgame was the highest grossing movie of all time.  It's hilarious that not beating = failure of a movie.  Or not breaking $1 billion = failure of a movie.  Might as well call every movie a failure then.



No, because again my point went over your head. This is final installment of the Skywalker Saga, a 9 movie main story three chapter trilogy series. It was not supposed to not even break TLJ's numbers. If that's how you view a success for a Star Wars movie in a Sequel Trilogy which has subsequently failed to match or even beat out its predecessor in every subsequent new entry, then you are beyond hopeless. There isn't any excuse for this.


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## ~VK~ (Jan 1, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> Agree. The pass couple of days has made me a fan.
> 
> Straight shitting on the fanbase.




The irony is that these are the same people that were crying about star wars fans toxic sexism and are now spewing racist vitriol towards boyega. But i doubt the media will talk about this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blocky (Jan 1, 2020)

I wonder when are we get another sequel trilogy in the future where those films will shit and kill off Rey, Finn, and Poe as well.

After all, they should “let the past die” right?


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## ~VK~ (Jan 1, 2020)

~VK~ said:


> The irony is that these are the same people that were crying about star wars fans toxic sexism and are now spewing racist vitriol towards boyega. But i doubt the media will talk about this.


btw rian johnson follows the person who said this..


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

~VK~ said:


> The irony is that these are the same people that were crying about star wars fans toxic sexism and are now spewing racist vitriol towards boyega. But i doubt the media will talk about this.



Twitter users aren't even real people m8

They just want their selfish personal scenarios going down regardless of the actor or actress plays as someone they can self insert, like the weird ass "Nerdy PoC" user on twitter who was complaining about Rose getting only 76 seconds of screen time in TROS.


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## U mad bro (Jan 1, 2020)

~VK~ said:


> The irony is that these are the same people that were crying about star wars fans toxic sexism and are now spewing racist vitriol towards boyega. But i doubt the media will talk about this.


Doesn’t surprise me people typically use black movements to push their own agenda. But the minute it doesn’t line up this comes out. All these fake ass movements are full of hypocrisy lol


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 1, 2020)

~VK~ said:


> The irony is that these are the same people that were crying about star wars fans toxic sexism and are now spewing racist vitriol towards boyega. But i doubt the media will talk about this.


I try not to be the type to fall to this, but it's safe to say that this film has been a nightmare for people of color. Which is funny because I bet normally that would be something this user would say she "sees through".


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## Son Of Man (Jan 1, 2020)

~VK~ said:


> btw rian johnson follows the person who said this..


Rians a fuckwad
Didn't he delete like 10k tweets after gunn got fired for tweeting dumb shit in the past? I've seen threads exposing  rian being in with pedos too but haven't seen anything concrete.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Doesn't matter what movie it is.  Financial success is financial success.  Making nearly a billion dollars is an accomplishment.



Your standard for financial success is wrong. There is no way Disney spending all that money doing reshoots, post-production changes, story changes, different edits and cuts of the final film from multiple ones by JJ Abrams, Iger, and Lucas, with Terrio's admittance on the whole final film being a "success". Theater owners take their cuts, which are likely bigger after TLJ's fiasco at the box office and Solo's bombing, and the money they spent between production and marketing being a true positive green back. 

You are wrong.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> Rians a fuckwad
> Didn't he delete like 10k tweets after gunn got fired for tweeting dumb shit in the past? I've seen threads exposing  rian being in with pedos too but haven't seen anything concrete.



That was Chuck Wendig. He was fired from Star Wars Marvel comics because he was threatening people and using his influence and position with Lucas Films for political soapboxing and Marvel's Editor-in-Chief fired him on the spot, he also hasn't done any new books which have all had heavily negative reviews anyways.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

Speaking of which Weiss said this movie would do better than TLJ 

So lol


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 1, 2020)

baby Yoda would force choke Rey if she tried to harm Mando


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## Mider T (Jan 1, 2020)

Fang said:


> Your standard for financial success is wrong. There is no way Disney spending all that money doing reshoots, post-production changes, story changes, different edits and cuts of the final film from multiple ones by JJ Abrams, Iger, and Lucas, with Terrio's admittance on the whole final film being a "success". Theater owners take their cuts, which are likely bigger after TLJ's fiasco at the box office and Solo's bombing, and the money they spent between production and marketing being a true positive green back.
> 
> You are wrong.


Success in movies just 3 things.

1. Money
2. Awards
3. Reviews

Anything after that doesn't matter. You're just nitpicking this because like thousands of other OT diehards will never be satisfied with anything else.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Success in movies just 3 things.
> 
> 1. Money



Movies aren't made in a vacuum that don't factor costs. TROS certainly is the most expensive Star Wars film aside from maybe Solo and theater owners also take their cuts and non-domestic ones even bigger ones over seas.



> 2. Awards



Irrelevant.



> 3. Reviews



Not relevant, only early crtic reviews and fan audience scores matter because it forms a barometer of what preludes to a film's success. TROS scored terribly with fans and critics alike.



> Anything after that doesn't matter. You're just nitpicking this because like thousands of other OT diehards will never be satisfied with anything else.



No I'm not. I'm not an OT diehard, the ST aside from being irredeemably terrible, without any continuity in its own saga much less contradictions and red herrings framing the stories and sub-plots in the...so that they are incompatible with each other along with JJ and Rian giving each other the finger doesn't change the fact this movie barely breaking a billion in total is somehow a success for Disney or Iger or Kenndy or JJ. More to the point, trying to claim continually raising major diminishing returns and marketing agencies, theater owners, and others taking their own cuts.

As a reminder: it took over a year for TLJ's BD sales to reach half of what TFA's did. I wonder what the number will look like for TROS.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 1, 2020)

baby Yeed is a literal *baby *in Yoda years, of course he never trained, he cant even talk, what the fuck 

but he hasnt done anything impossible for a powerful force sensitive anyway, its instinct, not science
not like he jumped out of a crib and immediately started lightsaber dueling Sith Lords as a baby

plus he tires out very fast


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 1, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> baby Yeed is a literal *baby *in Yoda years, of course he never trained, he cant even talk, what the fuck


Being a baby in his species years does not change the fact he has lived for 50 years so even if unintentionally he would have still learned what to do in all that time. No different than a baby learning to walk considering his species proficiency with the force.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 1, 2020)

Still need to watch last 2 eps of mando

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Jan 1, 2020)

U mad bro said:


> Boyega want all the Smoke. Star Wars fan base can’t handle a real ^ (use bro) lol



Reylos aren't the Star Wars fanbase. The Star Wars Fanbase are the people who grew up with SW and hate this shit show as much as our Boi-Ega does. They all us the Fandom Menace now and apparently we're what's wrong with the franchise they've loved since 2015 and will forget about shorty.


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## Gledania (Jan 1, 2020)

Tchen yinyin


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## MartialHorror (Jan 1, 2020)

If Jon Boyega's career doesn't really take off... and it's kind of a strange point to argue as anything can suddenly make you a hot commodity or contaminate you into box office poison... I'd say "Pacific Rim: Uprising" would probably hurt him more than "Star Wars", just because that definitively flopped and he headlined it. He's also done some smaller, more critically acclaimed stuff like "Detroit", but I hear that failed at the box office too. But he's also one of those guys who can fire back quickly. Daisy Ridley's done so little that she's either not getting auditions or she's choosing not to do as much. Oscar Isaac and Adam Driver will have long careers as long as something catastrophic doesn't derail them. They have too much acclaim. At worst, they'll be popular supporting actors.


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## Pilaf (Jan 1, 2020)




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## MartialHorror (Jan 1, 2020)

I finally started watching "The Mandalorian" and I think it's pretty good, although I'm not having the intense reaction that a lot of people are. I like the titular character, I like the supporting cast, I think the music is interesting in a way that's different from the classic themes and the production values are good. So far, I've liked the aesthetics and the action scenes. "Baby Yoda" is cute and so far, I'm not burned out on this obvious attempt to sell a new toy line.

I haven't really disliked anything yet, although unlike "The Witcher", I'm not in a rush to binge it. I'm about half way through and I still think it might've been smarter to air this a little earlier, having the finale come out shortly before the release of "Rise of Skywalker". Then maybe people will be less like "Why go to the theaters when I have quality Star Wars entertainment at home" and more like "I need my Star Wars fix until Season 2 comes out!". But I guess people who get paid the big bucks for determining this kind of stuff would know something I don't.

Edit: I totally want to see 'Baby Palpatine' now.


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## Fang (Jan 1, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Reylos aren't the Star Wars fanbase. The Star Wars Fanbase are the people who grew up with SW and hate this shit show as much as our Boi-Ega does. They all us the Fandom Menace now and apparently we're what's wrong with the franchise they've loved since 2015 and will forget about shorty.



Its always a smart move to throw tantrums at your core fans who buy 90% of the merchandise and then wonder why your brand is losing money after insulting them. Kind of like what happened to EA and Dice with BF V fiasco.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 1, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I finally started watching "The Mandalorian" and I think it's pretty good, although I'm not having the intense reaction that a lot of people are. I like the titular character, I like the supporting cast, I think the music is interesting in a way that's different from the classic themes and the production values are good. So far, I've liked the aesthetics and the action scenes. "Baby Yoda" is cute and so far, I'm not burned out on this obvious attempt to sell a new toy line.


Mando is a 9/10 show

Reactions: Like 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 1, 2020)

U mad bro said:


> Boyega want all the Smoke. Star Wars fan base can’t handle a real ^ (use bro) lol


Don’t confuse the SW fanbase with Tumblr whales who splooge over reylo and 50 shades of gray cat ladies fans


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 1, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Don’t confuse the SW fanbase with Tumblr whales who splooge over reylo and 50 shades of gray cat ladies fans


I find it so hilarious how this film shat the bed not only with long time fans but even these Reylo shipping idiots. Is it any wonder the film is already looking to hit TLJ's lows at the box office already despite only being on it's second week?


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 1, 2020)

Reylo is worse than Sasuke/Sakura

And NOT a better love story than Twilight


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 1, 2020)

Reylo >> twilight


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 1, 2020)

They are both equally awful.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 1, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> They are both equally awful.


Pretty much 
it’s practically arguing which type of shit smells the least worse


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 1, 2020)

I actually never watched an entire Twilight film


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## MShadows (Jan 1, 2020)

Dark Rey: "Don't be afraid of who you are!"

Rey: "Imma rai skywalkerzz"


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## ~VK~ (Jan 1, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> Reylo is worse than Sasuke/Sakura
> 
> And NOT a better love story than Twilight


i don't know about that. Sasuke and sakura were pretty fucking terrible.

Then again as pathetic and without dignity sakura was at least she used to be friends(using the word friend very liberal here) with sasuke and saw he wasn't always on some villain shit. The only real frame of reference rey has of kylo is him being a mass murdering psychopath who has killed and tried to hurt her and the people she cared about numerous times because his uncle and parents didn't love him enough and snoke may or may not have molested him...


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## MartialHorror (Jan 1, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Oh that's just adorable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"What I tried to do?" How about this, buddy. You've been saying shit like I have issues with latinos and the like. So prove it. Here's the thread -- 

Because even if Suigetsu just articulated his point badly, which is a pretty bullshit claim but whatever, at least I can draw from that specific moment why I think he's antisemitic. So what did I say that made you think I have an issue with latinos? Because if you got nothing, then my friend, that is indisputable slander.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 1, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Oh I don't particularly think you are, but by the insane PC standards you, the mods and this forum adhere too..you would be. So in obedience to the rules, expect to be called out for attacking a marginalized group



Fine, by the 'insane PC standards' I 'adhere too, how exactly am I racist? What is as bad as the shit Suigetsu said?


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## Stunna (Jan 1, 2020)

I don't know what the response to this movie has been around here, but I'd legit rather watch _Attack of the Clones _three times in a row than watch this horseshit again.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stunna (Jan 2, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I'd rather watch Attack of the Clones 3 times in a row than be involved with this horseshit again. lol. The mods should drop the banhammer or consider us for suspensions, me included for drawing this out. But instead, they'll just delete the last few pages and we'll succumb to it all again in a few months.


tbh I didn't even read the thread at all so I don't know what you're talking about, but it's _Star Wars_, so I just assumed stupid shit was being said by someone by default


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 2, 2020)

Stunna said:


> I don't know what the response to this movie has been around here, but I'd legit rather watch _Attack of the Clones _three times in a row than watch this horseshit again.



Am I the only one who liked AOTC?

It was like..a special needs version of the Hunt for Red October


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 2, 2020)

Star wars sure has a nice friendly community


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## Karyu Endan (Jan 2, 2020)

I saw the Rise of Skywalker in theaters yesterday and I have mixed feelings about it.


*Spoiler*: _Rise of Skywalker spoilers_ 



First some context. I tried to avoid spoilers as much as I could after the first few trailers, so all I knew going into it were that Palpatine and Lando would show up, there would be some Dark Rey (which I expected from the word go would be either a Force vision or a clone), and the new droid unfortunately had a name that would doom it to memedom from the moment it was introduced (I had also just watched JoJo parts 1 and 2 when this information was first made public, BTW).

Also, I am one of those people who liked _The Last Jedi_. After _The Force Awakens_ was nothing more or less than _A New Hope 2.0_, I was pleasantly surprised by the twists in TLJ and was relieved that the same-ness of TFA was only a one-time thing to re-introduce the series safely while later material would take more risks and set itself apart from mere OT nostalgia-pandering (something I also liked about _Rogue One_). I understand most of the complaints critics have toward TLJ and could see why some people didn't like it, but from my experience either those issues didn't ruin the experience for me (Snoke not having a backstory, Holdo not explaining her plan when she had no reason to hide it, Finn and Phasma being underutilized), or they were largely overblown and people were exaggerating the movie's flaws (Luke in general, Rose in general, Rey being called a Mary Sue when TLJ is the only movie in this trilogy where she _isn't_ one).

Don't get me wrong. I liked _The Force Awakens_ too. I liked Finn and was interested in what the rest of the trilogy would do with him. I liked Kylo Ren and was interested in what the rest of the trilogy would do with him. At first I thought Rey was a bland Mary Sue and in TFA specifically she still is, but after watching TFA a second time after TLJ I recognized foreshadowing for Rey's arc in TLJ and I found some new respect for TFA because of it. But it was not a model for future installments. It relied heavily on OT imagery for nostalgia pandering _and_ borrowing the original trilogy's plot wholesale on top of that. It was inoffensive, but it was safe and largely unoriginal as well. The Star Wars franchise wasn't going to be able to maintain itself by just repeating the original trilogy plot beats that were weird and subversive _for its time_ but have become cliche'd _now_. Star Wars was going to have to break from its own traditions in order to stand out again. _Rogue One_ and _The Last Jedi_ did this in different ways.

_The Rise of Skywalker..._ didn't. JJ Abrams did the exact same thing he did in _The Force Awakens_. Just as TFA is _A New Hope_ 2.0, TRoS is _Return of the Jedi_ 2.0. Rey and Kylo/Ben do the exact same song and dance that Luke and Vader/Anakin did. Which is especially jarring for Ben. He went through most of Episode 8 trying to break away from his obsession with being like Vader after Snoke called him out on spending all of Episode 7 trying and failing to emulate him. And yet Episode 9 has Ben literally do everything Anakin does in Episode 6 without a hint of self-awareness or irony. This didn't click with me in the moment, probably because Adam Driver is such a good actor, but in hindsight this is a huge break in character that doesn't make any sense when you take into account what the character had done in the previous two films.

It also didn't really feel right (even on first viewing) to see a supposedly redeemed Ben slay the Knights of Ren without a second thought, when he convinced the group to abandon Luke and turn to the Dark Side in the first place. A more climactic use of the showdown, and a more poignant display of Ben's redemption, would be if Ben convinced the Knights of Ren to return to the Light with him, and they *all* came to help Rey fight Sidious. It would also, instead of just being a re-hash of episode 6, be a _reversal_ of what Anakin does in Episode 3: just as Anakin's fall to Vader came with destroying the old Jedi order, Kylo's rise to Ben would come with _saving_ what's left of the _new_ Jedi order.

Enough about Ben. I want to talk about Sidious. It wasn't just enough for him to be back from the dead with little to no explanation to be the big villain again. He had to recycle his role from RotJ as well. Announces his presence to lure the Resistance into a trap? Check. Sets New Luke and New Vader against each other with the intention of taking over whoever wins, but can't succeed with either because New Luke refuses to turn despite everything and New Vader has a change of heart just in the nick of time? Check. The only major difference is that this time, Sidious becomes so ungodly powerful after absorbing power from Rey and Ben that he can decimate the entire Resistance single-handedly, so _everything_ rides on Rey's confrontation with him and no one else really matters when you get down to it. Contrast this with RotJ, where Han and Leia's ground mission to disable the Death Star's shields and Lando's space battle to destroy said Death Star had a significant impact on the climax and the outcome of the battle is largely out of Palpy's hands once he sets it in motion. Sheev's newfound _unlimited powaah_ just serves to undermine Finn's and Poe's roles in the story (as, effectively, the next generation's Han and Leia) and make everything depend on Rey. It doesn't really matter whether or not Finn, Poe, Lando, and the rest of the Resistance could stop the Final Order fleet from leaving Exegol's atmosphere if Palpy can blast them all with Force Storms and he can continue the plan unimpeded after he wipes the Resistance out himself. Rey _has to_ succeed or everyone else fails by default.

Speaking of which, Finn gets a raw deal once again, being reduced to Rey's bumbling sidekick who can't spit out that he loves her he loves Poe he is sensitive to the Force it doesn't matter because he doesn't say it. And then learning there are other ex-Stormtroopers like him around but nothing really happens because of this new information. He was my favourite of the new characters in Episode 7 and to see him so underutilized in Episodes 8 and 9 is _really_ disappointing. Not being able to give a former Stormtrooper like Finn a satisfying character arc after the concept showed so much promise in TFA is one of the largest narrative failures of the sequel trilogy and John Boyega has every right to be pissed off about it. BTW, Phasma (or perhaps a clone of hers whose participation in the First Order is just as involuntary as Finn's once was) should have come back in charge of the Sith Troopers and Finn should have had another shot at conclusively defeating her, since their fight in TLJ was interrupted and no other character works better as Finn's personal arch-enemy and final boss.

Anyway, it feels like TRoS goes out of its way to go back on TLJ in every regard. Not just in untwisting some of the twists watchers didn't like about TLJ and reducing Rose's role to near-nonexistence (let alone DJ vanishing altogether. I can't be the only one who suspected he was the mole in the First Order who leaked Palpatine's return, can I?). But in its very directing philosophy. TFA was safe and tried to please everyone with a passable but narratively unremarkable movie. TLJ was a bolder movie that actually had something to say and challenged the audience to engage with it on a deeper level. It was understandably divisive (like any firmly-stated opinion there will be those who disagree with it), and yet Disney seemed to be afraid of the outrage and rehiring Abrams to do another safe movie reeks of backpedaling and cowardice. This move could be forgiven with TFA, but not with TRoS. Which is very unfortunate because I liked a lot of what I saw too. Maybe if TRoS were extended into two movies it could have had room for every character to have a satisfying conclusion to their arc. There is a lot of potential for a decent story in here, but it doesn't play out and the movie leaves a very bitter aftertaste once the spectacle fades. Disney ended the Skywalker Saga by appealing to the lowest common denominator when Star Wars became popular in the first place and _remained_ popular despite the prequel hate because it refused to do that.




TL;DR I feel like my experience with TRoS can be summed up by appropriating something Obi-Wan said in _Revenge of the Sith_:

You were supposed to _destroy_ the cliches, not _join_ them! Bring _balance_ to the movie, not leave it in _darkness!_

Reactions: Like 1


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## Garcher (Jan 2, 2020)

saw the "darth rey" sequence on youtube, the 10 seconds convinced me she should have been dark side from the start

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zef (Jan 2, 2020)

Seen posts of Reylo's saying Boyega should be put in his place.


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 2, 2020)

Zef said:


> Seen posts of Reylo's saying Boyega should be put in his place.


Shippers are crazy 
Insult there ship and they gladly Lynch your ass in a heartbeat


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 2, 2020)

is Boyega trolling twatter or is he legitimately upset Rey didnt choose Finn ?


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## Blocky (Jan 2, 2020)

I think he is tired of all the racist shit he had to endure during the sexual trilogy.


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## Zef (Jan 2, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> is Boyega trolling twatter or is he legitimately upset Rey didnt choose Finn ?


From my understanding he joked on Instagram about Finn "_laying pipe_" now that Kylo is dead.

Reylo's got mad, and called him misogynistic (_which is ironic considering their ship_) which made him go on Twitter and basically mock them, posting images of Rey and Kylo fighting and her stabbing him.

I honestly think he's just tired of the fandom's scrutiny. 
Not long before this he was in trouble with fans for saying something that people felt was insensitive to Rose's actor.

He's just had enough.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 2, 2020)

Had enough or never cared?


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## dr_shadow (Jan 2, 2020)

I'm about to re-watch The Last Jedi. I'm very afraid.


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## The Runner (Jan 2, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> Had enough or never cared?


More like he’s finally allowed to voice his opinion on how people treat him without repercussions from Disney.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 2, 2020)

So Finn was going to use the force?

They should have kept that in the movie


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## dr_shadow (Jan 2, 2020)

You know what, I don't mind the first half-hour of The Last Jedi. Up until the point when Leia "dies", Luke decides to train Rey, and Finn & Rose go off to Canto Bight, it's not half bad.

But then it starts to unravel...


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 2, 2020)

This movie made me appreciate last Jedi  More.


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## Suigetsu (Jan 2, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Dark Rey: "Don't be afraid of who you are!"
> 
> Rey: "Imma rai skywalkerzz"


omg HAHAHAHA


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## Suigetsu (Jan 2, 2020)




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## Chaos Hokage (Jan 3, 2020)

Karyu Endan said:


> I saw the Rise of Skywalker in theaters yesterday and I have mixed feelings about it.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Rise of Skywalker spoilers_
> ...



Good review. I agree with all your points. TRoS could've been better than it was if it took bolder moves like TLJ.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jan 3, 2020)

According to this, it was all Disney executives who basically forced the director to make the movie how they wanted it to 
*Spoiler*: __ 







T


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## Zef (Jan 3, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> This movie made me appreciate last Jedi  More.


TLJ is a big reason this film is so trash.




Ultra Instinct Vegito said:


> According to this, it was all Disney executives who basically forced the director to make the movie how they wanted it to
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, so much shilling of JJ in this as if he bears no responsibility.


Still I find some things there enlightening.


> *They want to keep DC in the limbo that they’re in right now.* Abrams jumpstarting that franchise with *something like a successful, audience-pleasing Superman movie makes them nervous.*



Fuck Disney, and Fuck the MCU.




> Apparently, JJ felt threatened over the month leading up to the premiere


Damn, did Mouse try to have him killed or something?




> Jannah was confirmed to be Lando’s daughter


Rey and this chick get to find out about their past, but my man Finn doesn't.
Typical.





> *Finn wanting to tell Rey something was always meant to be force sensitivity. In the 3 hour cut, it’s explicitly stated.* There was a moment when Jannah and he were running on top of that star destroyer *and Finn needed to unlock or move something and he force-moved it and acted surprised when it happened.* This was replaced with a CGI’d BB-8 fixing whatever he needed to fix on there.




*FUCK. **DISNEY.
*


> JJ was against the Reylo kiss (or Reylo in general). This was Disney's attempt to please both sides of the fandom.


By "_both sides of the fandom_" they really mean just tumblr fangirls, and KK.




> JJ is gutted over the final result. Star Wars means a lot to him.


Oh boo hoo



> The source asked about FinnPoe after seeing Oscar Isaac's comment about how Disney didn't want it to be a thing. This is true. JJ fought to make this happen.


I'm glad this shit didn't happen tbh.


FinnPoe reminds me of Korrasami from LoK where a vocal minority of fans start shipping two characters of the same sex, and basically try to force it into existence.


Props to Disney for not caving into the rabid fujoshi's 
Too bad they instead caved into the Reylo's and their abusive ship.




> *Disney was hesitant to hire John Boyega because a woman was front and center* so they deemed that risky enough *so bringing in a male lead who's black made them nervous*


Obligatory "*Fuck Disney*"


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## Pilaf (Jan 3, 2020)




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## MartialHorror (Jan 3, 2020)

People freaking out over the John Boyega controversy makes it difficult to take them seriously when legitimate controversies arise.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 3, 2020)

Shippers, they be


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 3, 2020)

Zef said:


> TLJ is a big reason this film is so trash.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. Jar Jar himself is as much to blame for fucking up since he started the trilogy undermining everything the OT accomplished. The final product of ROS sounds just as bad and desperate to please the critics as the final film while failing at it completely.


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## reiatsuflow (Jan 3, 2020)

Zef said:


> From my understanding he joked on Instagram about Finn "_laying pipe_" now that Kylo is dead.
> 
> Reylo's got mad, and called him misogynistic (_which is ironic considering their ship_) which made him go on Twitter and basically mock them, posting images of Rey and Kylo fighting and her stabbing him.
> 
> ...



edit- I misunderstood what you guys were talking about and thought you were referring to the comments boyega and isaac made about wanting poe and finn to be gay. So many controversies, hard to keep up.



mr_shadow said:


> You know what, I don't mind the first half-hour of The Last Jedi. Up until the point when Leia "dies", Luke decides to train Rey, and Finn & Rose go off to Canto Bight, it's not half bad.
> 
> But then it starts to unravel...



The throne room stuff is still great even with the choreography slips. Kylo killing snoke, kylo and rey fighting what were originally supposed to be the knights of ren. It's good stuff. It's well shot. It makes organic sense.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 3, 2020)

Nah the throne room scene is bad even outside of choreography due to shit editing, crappy color composition, and Daisy screaming like a banshee.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> People freaking out over the John Boyega controversy makes it difficult to take them seriously when legitimate controversies arise.


I'm just laughing at the people who's  like "John is being disagreeable? Well maybe racism isn't so bad afterall"


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## MartialHorror (Jan 3, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> I'm just laughing at the people who's  like "John is being disagreeable? Well maybe racism isn't so bad afterall"



Honestly, is this really out of line for the Star Wars fandom at this point? It's like... jesus, people... chill out.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Honestly, is this really out of line for the Star Wars fandom at this point? It's like... jesus, people... chill out.


I honestly can't think of a more toxic movie fanbase..and boy am I trying.

 not saying every Star Wars Fan is toxic..I'm a star wars fan

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Jan 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Honestly, is this really out of line for the Star Wars fandom at this point? It's like... jesus, people... chill out.



Implying Reylos are actual Star Wars fans and not just sicko danger-hairs clinging to the flavor of the week before moving onto something else to screech about.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 3, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> *I honestly can't think of a more toxic movie fanbase*..and boy am I trying.
> 
> not saying every Star Wars Fan is toxic..I'm a star wars fan



Not a movie fanbase, but --

I'd nominate the zealot echochamber that is *The JohnLock Canon* (abbr. TJLC) aka the BBC Sherlock / John Watson shippers that DEDUCED and AFFIRMs that showrunners Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss deliberately wrote BBC Sherlock and John Watson as a slow burn gay romance that would explicitly culminate in the final season of _Sherlock_.

When I said I didn't believe that Moffat and Gatiss really meant that, and that they were likely being queerbaited due to Moffat's own history on _Doctor Who --_ I've been called a nazi for disbelieving in the BBC Sherlock/John romance and disbelieving that TJLCanon, that it was all planned. And that, every TJLCer would rub in it everyone's face when Season 4 (then the last announced season of _Sherlock_) that Johnlock would explicitly and undeniably affirm that they are a gay romance. If you bring up Moffat and Gatiss' own previous work on _Doctor Who_, and even their own statements saying, "We're not lying anymore, BBC Sherlock isn't gay.", TJLCers will just swarm you with their own mountains of 'deductions' that you'd have no time in the world to even begin dissecting and refuting enough to their satisfaction of entertaining other perspectives. It's a zealot's echochamber.

Of course, S4's gay romance never took place.

A good amount of TJLCers despaired and felt suicidal......

and the other TJLCers continue to be zealots, unable to accept the consideration that everything they believed in, that they 'deduced', was in fact a queerbaiting that they themselves egged on.

You know in the immediate aftermath of the S4 finale, TJLCers once again 'deduced' that a new TV show on BBC was secretly the post-S4 _Sherlock _special in disguise? Guess what happened when they ran with it, and when the new TV show aired, proving them wrong. That's how far TJLCers zealots can go, and have gone.

And to this day, some TJLCers lambast others for despairing. And not enough non-zealot TJLCers call them out on it, nor on their heinous double-standards.

I'm not absolving of Moffat and Gatiss for leading them on -- but the TJLCers are also to blame due to their own zealot echochamber.

Regardless of fandom, zealots like those TJLCers or those that attacked and harassed Kelly Marie Tran to the point of leaving ---- bloody ugh.

Again, so that I'll clarify, if my entire post may not be consistent -- I draw distinct lines of ID differences between -- BBC Sherlock/John shippers, the TJLCers (the shippers who, at any time in their fandom, believed that MoffTiss meant a gay romance), and the TJLC zealots (the TJLCers that absolutely believe that MoffTiss meant gay romance, and will defend it an refuses to see the reality that they've been now duped). Not all Sherlock/John shippers are TJLCers, and not all TJLCers are TJLC zealots.

But if you're being called a nazi because you don't believe (and now know) that Moffat and Gatiss didn't plan this gay romance in their BBC _Sherlock _show, you're likely dealing with a TJLC zealot.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 3, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Implying Reylos are actual Star Wars fans and not just sicko danger-hairs clinging to the flavor of the week before moving onto something else to screech about.



Fans are fans... even if they support an awful pairing.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Implying Reylos are actual Star Wars fans and not just sicko danger-hairs clinging to the flavor of the week before moving onto something else to screech about.


You can't really say that they're "not" fans


Comic Book Guy said:


> Not a movie fanbase, but --
> 
> I'd nominate the zealot echochamber that is *The JohnLock Canon* (abbr. TJLC) aka the BBC Sherlock / John Watson shippers that DEDUCED and AFFIRMs that showrunners Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss deliberately wrote BBC Sherlock and John Watson as a slow burn gay romance that would explicitly culminate in the final season of _Sherlock_.
> 
> ...



What's with fanbases wanting men to fuck so much? Is it due to a lack representation? I know Supernatural makes meta jokes on occasion about fans wanting Sam and Dean to fuck despite the fact that they are legit blood brothers!


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 3, 2020)

If the only thing they give a damn about is a ship than they are not fans of the brand in any way.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> If the only thing they give a damn about is a ship than they are not fans of the brand in any way.


Cause you say so? How do you know what strangers care about?


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2020)

See? Here we go with the toxic shit.

"You're not a fan if you don't like a product for the same reasons I do."

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 3, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> Cause you say so? How do you know what strangers care about?


Oh I don't know, maybe the fact they started hating the franchise in droves just because their precious ship did not end like thet wanted which tells us they did not give a darn about SW to begin with sherlock.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Oh I don't know, maybe the fact they started hating the franchise in droves just because their precious ship did not end like thet wanted which tells us they did not give a darn about SW to begin with sherlock.


How do you know they hate the franchise ? Or  their reasoning for hating the franchise?

And if that's the sole reason, the fact that they care enough about these characters that a strong emotional response is given when expectations aren't met does in fact show they're "fans" .


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## MartialHorror (Jan 3, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> How do you know they hate the franchise ? Or  their reasoning for hating the franchise?
> 
> And if that's the sole reason, the fact that they care enough about these characters that a strong emotional response is given when expectations aren't met does in fact show they're "fans" .



Yeah the logic is silly. I HATE the Reylo shipping, but they wouldn't ship the pairing so hard if they weren't fans of Star Wars. I don't see the difference between them turning on the brand and others for turning on the brand because of what "The Last Jedi" did to Luke. The whole 'True Fan' bullshit is empty entitlement.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 3, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> How do you know they hate the franchise ? Or  their reasoning for hating the franchise?


Did you forget the videos showing these so called fans screaming about it? The countless bitching and whining from twatter and Facebook posts? The very first point I made that you replied to was about fans who only cared about the ship itself so why are you suddenly forgetting that?






~Gesy~ said:


> And if that's the sole reason, the fact that they care enough about these characters that a strong emotional response is given when expectations aren't met does in fact show they're "fans" .


>only care about if two people fuck
>no care for plot, story, or any other damn characters in either the films or whatever material
> that somehow makes them Star Wars "fans"

Wrong. Clearly the only thing ther deserve to be called are reylo fans since that is all they give a darn about.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Did you forget the videos showing these so called fans screaming about it? The countless bitching and whining from twatter and Facebook posts? The very first point I made that you replied to was about fans who only cared about the ship itself so why are you suddenly forgetting that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 3, 2020)




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## MartialHorror (Jan 3, 2020)

I feel like using specific videos to prove their point is flawed because every theatrical experience is going to be different. My own for "Rise of Skywalker" barely reacted at all. Those videos... at least the ones that were posted here... clearly showcases a raucous crowd, who probably were making noise throughout most of the film. 

I remember watching a horror movie called "Darkness", which was sold out, seemingly filled with teenage girls and they shrieked at everything. You'd think it was the scariest movie ever, but it got bad reviews, failed at cinemascore and no one remembers it. It was just that kind of crowd that night.


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## Karyu Endan (Jan 3, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> What's with fanbases wanting men to fuck so much? Is it due to a lack representation? I know Supernatural makes meta jokes on occasion about fans wanting Sam and Dean to fuck despite the fact that they are legit blood brothers!




*Spoiler*: _A case for Finn/Poe_ 



Part of it is a lack of representation. I also suspect a part of it in some cases (like this one with Finn and Poe) is the idea that corporations only _pretend_ to care about LGBT representation and merely pay lip service to it without going the extra mile and actually explicitly depicting it in a meaningful way. Instead of a legitimate and serious on-screen romantic relationship between two lead characters that just so happen to both be dudes, all we get is a blink-and-you'll-miss-it kiss between two unnamed characters that can be easily edited out for showings in Singapore. That's nothing more than soulless pandering.

Granted, I'm not sure if Finn and Poe's bond in TFA was romantic _necessarily_, but developing their bond _into_ a romance in TRoS would have made for a better story than what we got between them in TRoS. Which was nothing, really. It's rather disappointing. Finn and Poe have great chemistry together from what little screen time they share in TFA. They then spend most of TLJ apart since Poe _needed_ his own subplot for character development after being sidelined in TFA and Finn would have overshadowed him if they were together. Then a year passes and supposedly Finn and Poe have been on a lot of missions together and a there's a chance to see how much closer they are and... nothing really comes of it. TRoS rarely slows down to focus on character interactions, and when it does it almost always involves Rey and/or Kylo. Finn and Poe have all of _one_ meaningful conversation in the whole movie that lasts more than 10 seconds, and nothing really comes as a consequence of it. You'd _think_ there would be a moment of introspection on Poe's part after Finn tells him he's nothing like Leia and runs off to follow Rey onto the Death Star wreckage, but no such scene exists.

And hell, if TRoS was going to shamelessly rip off RotJ anyway, why _not_ go all the way and have New Han and New Leia fall in love? At the very least it would have given Finn and Poe something important to do in this movie and it would have been just as subversive and brave as Han/Leia was when the original trilogy came out. Let's remember that the hero _not_ getting the girl and Leia choosing Han over Luke in ESB was supposed to be a shocking twist like Vader being Luke's father. But nowadays that isn't a twist anymore and audiences expect it. Sasuke/Sakura and Ron/Hermione owe their existence to Han/Leia, and Zuko/Katara being as popular as it was despite nothing in ATLA pointing to it whatsoever likely had something to do with Han/Leia as well. And Rey/Ben is _obvious_ because of how Han/Leia shook up the shipping game. But Finn passing over Rey and Rose in favour of another man? Now you're subverting expectations again while ironically keeping to the spirit of the original, now cliche'd couple.


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## BlueDemon (Jan 3, 2020)

I went in without knowing much - well, except that Palp was most probably back, since it was close to impossible not to know that on the net.
There was no surprise: a meh ending to a meh trilogy. And Palp coming back without so much as a hint of an explanation...damn that was bad.I really hope the next series is going to do something different than copying the original trilogy again.

@Ultra Instinct Vegito That's some crazy ass drama if even half true. Though it'd be really fucked up if Disney sabotaged their own movie just so they could keep DC movies down 


~Gesy~ said:


> Agree. The pass couple of days has made me a fan.
> 
> Straight shitting on the fanbase.





Zef said:


> From my understanding he joked on Instagram about Finn "_laying pipe_" now that Kylo is dead.
> 
> Reylo's got mad, and called him misogynistic (_which is ironic considering their ship_) which made him go on Twitter and basically mock them, posting images of Rey and Kylo fighting and her stabbing him.
> 
> ...


Wanted to ask about that, thanks for clarifying.


Yagami1211 said:


> The Force Awakens : 619.200 tickets sold
> The Last Jedi : 503.727 tickets sold
> Rise of Skywalker : 392.483 tickets sold
> Episode 9 is the worst start of the entire franchise, even behind the prequels :
> ...


I'm glad so many people chose not to go. I saw the movie because I thought I had to see the trainwreck to its end.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 3, 2020)

I just read the source and those allegations and... I'm not sure I buy it, but I'm also not sure I don't... I feel like these days, there is too much 'leaked information' and so much of it sounds contradictory that I have no idea what to believe. lol.


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## Karyu Endan (Jan 3, 2020)

Do I believe Disney is willing to sabotage its own product just to make JJ look bad for Warner Brothers? No. They were willing to share Joss Whedon and James Gunn, after all. And a megacorp like Disney would never intentionally make a decision that would make them less short-term money.

Do I believe Disney put JJ on a very tight leash after giving Rian Johnson lots of creative freedom for _The Last Jedi_ and that divided the fanbase, and as a result cut or shortened every remotely controversial element of JJ's vision for _Rise of Skywalker?_ Such as the likes of Naboo and Kamino in the lightspeed skipping sequence and Anakin's Force Ghost, which would require acknowledging the prequels? Absolutely. The movie already reeks of _Last Jedi_ damage control as is.

That being said, shouldn't _Solo_ have taught Disney that raw, shameless fanservice isn't enough to sell a movie? Or did they believe the argument that TLJ was the only reason that _Solo_ bombed and didn't realize that no one but the most die-hard fans care enough about Han Solo's backstory to spend money to see it in a movie without Harrison Ford? _And_ it was released around the same time as _Avengers: Infinity War _of all things, and that may have been a contributing factor?

Reactions: Like 2


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## hcheng02 (Jan 3, 2020)




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## Jouninja (Jan 3, 2020)

I saw the movie, it was decent, but it could have been so much more. But now that I find out there was executive meddling, I am once again dissapointed with those suits, they shouldn't ruin things that leave a mark on cinematic history.



> JJ was against the Reylo kiss (or Reylo in general). This was Disney's attempt to please both sides of the fandom.



No wonder it felt off, I guess they where meant to be friends. IF they where gonna kiss, then Kylo should have lived, but if they didn't kiss, then him dying would have been acceptable. But kissing and then him dying leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

If multiverse is a thing, at least theres a reality where all the Star Wards Movies where done as good as the OT, no Jar Jar Binks, and no suit meddling.


Anyways, regarding the action, man that was was some good lighsaber fighting, especially that scene of Kylo vs Rey with the waves around them, like a parallel of the fight of annakkin vs Obi Wan on the lava planet.

And that moment when Palpatine unleashed that storm of lightning into the sky, that was epic af.

Not to mention the phasing/teleporting items during force fights. Really payed off near the end when Rey teleported that lightsaber to Kylo while he was fighting those six elite warriors.

So at least action wise, this movie was good in that department, too bad about what happened to the characterization and plot due to higher up screw ups.


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## ~VK~ (Jan 3, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> What's with fanbases wanting men to fuck so much?


It's a fetish for a lot of these types of tumblr people who many of which are actual just female hetrosexual landwhales. And when you call them out on their clear fetishization of gay men they'll hide behind the excuse of being progressive while they'll screech that "yOU'rE jUsT BEinG hOmOPhoBiC".


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## creyzi4zb12 (Jan 4, 2020)

Jouninja said:


> I saw the movie, it was decent, but it could have been so much more. But now that I find out there was executive meddling, I am once again dissapointed with those suits, they shouldn't ruin things that leave a mark on cinematic history.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jarjar binks was Lucas’ thought of a good idea. While I understand the hate he gets, I also understand why Lucas wanted to put him in.

It makes you want to think carefully when he said, Star Wars was fo twelve year olds.

The day will prolly never come when most new Star Wars fans (the kids/today’s twelve year olds) are allowed to like the movie by the old fans (raging sexist nerds)


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## MartialHorror (Jan 4, 2020)

What the f@ck, mods?

You tolerated that entire blowout between Nostalgiafan, Immortal Watchdog and myself and continue to tolerate NF's and Crey's little shitfest and instead delete my silly attempt to deflate the tension? YOU CANNOT SILENCE NOSTALGIACREY!


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## Pilaf (Jan 4, 2020)

Reminder that Disney not only erased the EU but made Palpatine retarded. 

Canon Palpatine was at least as intelligent as Thrawn, who wisely decided to hide his numbers from the New Republic to maintain the element of surprise. Palpatine goes on Space Youtube and goes viral with the announcement he's coming with a huge fleet. If he just...didn't do that and showed up and started vaporizing planets, the New Republic would be forced to bend the knee.


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## reiatsuflow (Jan 4, 2020)

...

Mandalorian is a dumb show.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2020)

.


reiatsuflow said:


> ...
> 
> Mandalorian is a dumb show.



As if this thread isn't heated enough..here you go smh


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## Atem (Jan 4, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Remember this guy was laughed out of the OBD years ago for his terrible arguments so it's expected he would still hold a grudge against anyone from there.



Also, Ahsoka Tano >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rey.

Espeacially in Star Wars: Rebels. I would bounce a dick off those oranges.



creyzi4zb12 said:


> Yeah, but liking characters from the movie does not make you a fan as well?
> 
> Seems like your point of view is very much biased there.



I mentioned the OT, and the prequels. I still remember when watching them when I was young enough to believe in Santa Claus.

The sequels shit on them as well. Why would I like horrible fanfiction that ruins both the source material, and the expanded universe for it?


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## Atem (Jan 4, 2020)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> I don't think you got what I was trying to say. I was pointing out the fact here that Nostalgia claims that the Reylo shippers are not Star Wars fans just because they have varying likes/dislikes.



I question whether Reylo shippers are even sane, even John Boyega thinks that you guys are nuts. It's the one who lays the pipe, buddy.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jan 4, 2020)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> I don't think you got what I was trying to say. I was pointing out the fact here that Nostalgia claims that the Reylo shippers are not Star Wars fans just because they have varying likes/dislikes.




They are not.


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## reiatsuflow (Jan 4, 2020)

Normally I don't get the 'true fans' thing but I can sort of see it if I transmute the debate over to anime. 

like imagine a berserk fan got into berserk because of the 2016 anime

or a naruto fan got into naruto because of the filler arcs

it's like hold up, hold my purse


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 4, 2020)

reiatsuflow said:


> Normally I don't get the 'true fans' thing but I can sort of see it if I transmute the debate over to anime.
> 
> like imagine a berserk fan got into berserk because of the 2016 anime
> 
> ...


More like they only got into it for the Guts x Griffith shit and nothing else.


But comparing that to Reylo would even be a disservice to it.


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## Atem (Jan 4, 2020)

In Legends Canon (or, what canon was before Disney) death was so hard to reverse that you had to erase the moment of death from the space-time continuum.

Suddenly Kylo Ren and Rey can do it.

When only Darth Plagueis, and Darth Sidious knew how. When it caused such a disturbance in the force that it retaliated by creating Anakin Skywalker.

It's not something you're supposed to do. The force has a plan, and challenging it fucks up the timeline.

At least in the case of Darth Sidious and Darth Plagueis it was inspirational in a way. They refused to let the force dictate their lives. They wanted to be self-determinate. The only problem was that they were evil. If they were good? They would kinda be the real heroes.

Darth Traya was much the same except less obviously evil, and ultimately still evil.

I really want a Sith Lord that merely challenges the force who isn't evil at all. Just for example. A Sith Lord searching for a way to eradicate death across the galaxy. It's good because people won't die anymore. It's bad because it would fuck up reality something fierce.

Which would force him into conflict with the Jedi Order.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 4, 2020)

if rey is now a skywalker, does that mean reylo is a stepsibling ship? 
is this an homage to luke and leia kissing?


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2020)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> if rey is now a skywalker, does that mean reylo is a stepsibling ship?
> is this an homage to luke and leia kissing?


I thought it was more like her being married into the family.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 4, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> I thought it was more like her being married into the family.




"There’s as much of a brother-sister thing between Kylo and Rey as there is a romantic thing" -JJ

confirmed


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## Vault (Jan 4, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> I thought it was more like her being married into the family.


After one kiss and multiple murder attempts


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2020)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> "There’s as much of a brother-sister thing between Kylo and Rey as there is a romantic thing" -JJ
> 
> confirmed


What's confirmed? That JJ would get romantically involved with his sibling?


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2020)

Vault said:


> After one kiss and multiple murder attempts


That was Kylo Ren . Ben Solo is innocent


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## Atem (Jan 4, 2020)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> if rey is now a skywalker, does that mean reylo is a stepsibling ship?
> is this an homage to luke and leia kissing?



No, they are actually cousins. Biologically. Cause in Disney Canon instead of being made by the force? Anakin Skywalker was made by Darth Sidious impregnating his mom.

So, that means they both have the same grandfather/great grandfather.

So yeah, sweet home Alabama.


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## Atem (Jan 4, 2020)

Yes, really.

Disney Canon is so bad.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 4, 2020)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Yes, really.
> 
> Disney Canon is so bad.


I heard Disney is trying hard to bury this by saying it was all just "fan interpretation"


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## Atem (Jan 4, 2020)

Or, would it be aunt and nephew? 

In which case:


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 4, 2020)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> No, they are actually cousins. Biologically. Cause in Disney Canon instead of being made by the force? Anakin Skywalker was made by Darth Sidious impregnating his mom.
> 
> So, that means they both have the same grandfather/great grandfather.
> 
> So yeah, sweet home Alabama.



hey they're not cousins

they're cousins once removed


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

reiatsuflow said:


> ...
> 
> Mandalorian is a dumb show.


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## Pilaf (Jan 4, 2020)

They're trying to say Mandalorian is problematic now because it appeals to the toxic white fanbase. 

You know, Mandalorian. The show with the Latino guy and the green baby.


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## Vault (Jan 4, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> They're trying to say Mandalorian is problematic now because it appeals to the toxic white fanbase.
> 
> You know, Mandalorian. The show with the Latino guy and the green baby.


Who?


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## Karyu Endan (Jan 4, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I heard Disney is trying hard to bury this by saying it was all just "fan interpretation"



I mean, just from that page alone you could make the argument that Sidious was using Darth Plagieus' technique to "create life". Anakin doesn't need the man's DNA for that. Still squicky as all hell, though. I prefer the idea that the Force itself created Anakin as a response to Plagieus' and Sidious' experiments, and Sidious deciding to take Anakin as an apprentice was an act of improvisation after losing Maul in TPM.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 4, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I heard Disney is trying hard to bury this by saying it was all just "fan interpretation"



eh tbf it is jokes aside
its left ambigous and the whole sequence in soules comic is like a fever dream full of self loathing
searching through twitter and looking for the people who oversaw the comic being written their  words does seem to support this going back to when the comic was released

like he isn't the father, but his presence made the force react to create life. And he may be seen as a father figure in how he mentored anakin


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## Vault (Jan 4, 2020)

Karyu Endan said:


> Sidious deciding to take Anakin as an apprentice was an act of improvisation after losing Maul in TPM.



Lol no Sidious always wants the best most powerful shiny new toy. That's why with Dooku after he was defeated, he got rid because there was now anakin. Same with when Luke beat Vader. He was goading him to finish the job.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 4, 2020)

Just out of curiosity, are humans in Star Wars supposed to be... well, human? Or just humanoid?


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## Vault (Jan 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, are humans in Star Wars supposed to be... well, human? Or just humanoid?



A long time ago. In a galaxy far far away. 

Come on my guy


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, are humans in Star Wars supposed to be... well, human? Or just humanoid?



"He's quite clever you know.... for a human being"

The galaxy far away and long time ago   matters to what the frame of reference is.
For example to a chronicler a million years in the future living in a different galaxy, current earth and its history would be "a long time ago and far away"
The only question is if we're the chroniclers or if the narrator is someone else


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## MartialHorror (Jan 4, 2020)

Vault said:


> A long time ago. In a galaxy far far away.
> 
> Come on my guy



 I know, I'm just curious if it's ever really been commented on. In the EU, do they ever refer to people as human or humanity or mankind, etc. Or do we just assume they're alien races who simply look like us?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 4, 2020)

i don't know what Im talking about whatsoever btw


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## Karyu Endan (Jan 4, 2020)

Vault said:


> Lol no Sidious always wants the best most powerful shiny new toy. That's why with Dooku after he was defeated, he got rid because there was now anakin. Same with when Luke beat Vader. He was goading him to finish the job.



That doesn't contradict anything I said. If anything it only reinforces it. After Maul's death the "shiny new toy" was that extremely powerful child from Tatooine that the Jedi think is the Chosen One.

The only issue is that Dooku was always meant to be replaced by Anakin; that wasn't a spur-of-the-moment decision after seeing the duel between Anakin and Dooku at the start of RotS. Palpatine set Dooku up to lead the side of the Clone Wars that was meant to lose from day one. If the Separatists win, the galaxy gets divided into many independent systems. If the Republic wins, Palpatine can unify the entire galaxy under his rule and start the Empire. Meanwhile, Anakin becomes much stronger fighting Dooku's forces on the front lines during the Clone Wars. It isn't a coincidence that the war ends (with the Republic winning) not long after Anakin defeats Dooku: Palpatine was using the war to indirectly train Anakin and measure his strength with the Force relative to Dooku's, and it would keep going just long enough for Anakin to surpass him. Palpatine may have even ordered Dooku to kidnap him (Palpatine) to begin RotS specifically _because_ Anakin had recently surpassed him and Dooku just outlived his usefulness.

Ever since the end of TPM Palpatine thought of Anakin as his real apprentice; Dooku was merely a tool by comparison.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 4, 2020)

I didn't like how Dooku was just a tool. I think he would've been more compelling if his comments to Obi Wan about corruption in the republic were true and he was doing what he thought was right... perhaps not even realizing he was working for Palpatine. When it became apparent that he was simply the new Darth Maul, I was like... "... Eh... Well, he just suddenly became less interesting."



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> i don't know what Im talking about whatsoever btw



Ack. Your post clarified it. Somehow I missed it.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Ack. Your post clarified it. Somehow I missed it.



i dont even know what i clarified i just made a theory and gave a line from the movie 
like trying to google this brought up a "beginner's guide to a galaxy far far away"  which has this



but i don't   know if it's considered canon. it's part of the "journey to star wars: the last jedi" series


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## Son Of Man (Jan 4, 2020)

New saga rumor


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## MShadows (Jan 4, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> New saga rumor


Hopefully they fire that dumbass Kathleen Kennedy before proceeding with the production.


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## MShadows (Jan 4, 2020)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> "He's quite clever you know.... for a human being"
> 
> The galaxy far away and long time ago   matters to what the frame of reference is.
> For example to a chronicler a million years in the future living in a different galaxy, current earth and its history would be "a long time ago and far away"
> The only question is if we're the chroniclers or if the narrator is someone else


Speaking of which, was it ever revealed who this mystery narrator is? The SW events from their perspective seem to have happened in a very distant past. Or perhaps it's just a creative choice that looked cool?


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## Son Of Man (Jan 4, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Hopefully they fire that dumbass Kathleen Kennedy before proceeding with the production.


They need to fire a lot of people kk brought in to truly fix sw.


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## MShadows (Jan 4, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> They need to fire a lot of people kk brought in to truly fix sw.


Also, keep that idiot Rian Johnson as far away as possible.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2020)

High republic era?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 4, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Speaking of which, was it ever revealed who this mystery narrator is? The SW events from their perspective seem to have happened in a very distant past. Or perhaps it's just a creative choice that looked cool?



it's just "once upon a time" but for a space opera
most probs


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## MShadows (Jan 4, 2020)

"High" Republic era .... 

ck


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 4, 2020)

fun internet theory ive heard is that it occurs in the same universe as indiana jones and ET films


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## Rukia (Jan 4, 2020)

if they are going to make more of these they should just copy clone wars and rebels.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 4, 2020)

I like to think that Star Wars takes place in the same universe as the Gamera series. After all, Gamera does fight a Star Destroyer. 



MShadows said:


> Hopefully they fire that dumbass Kathleen Kennedy before proceeding with the production.



Doesn't her contract expire this year anyway?


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## MShadows (Jan 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I like to think that Star Wars takes place in the same universe as the Gamera series. After all, Gamera does fight a Star Destroyer.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't her contract expire this year anyway?


It better!


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## Rukia (Jan 4, 2020)

Yeah.  Kathleen Kennedy has to go.  She is too divisive at this point.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 4, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> High republic era?


400 years before the skywalker saga
Jedi exploring the unknown regions
books and games will tie into the saga

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Jan 4, 2020)

MShadows said:


> It better!



Whoops, apparently it goes through 2021. I doubt they'll formally fire her, although it's possible she will simply step down. From what I understand, she's highly regarded in the industry and is friends with pretty much everyone of relevance, so Disney would not want to potentially alienate them. So even if she's "fired", it would be done in a way for her to save face. 

Does anyone know if the plan is for Kevin Feige to replace her? Or is he just signed to a single film (or trilogy)? As much as I respect Feige and love what he's done for the MCU, I feel like part of Disney's (Or Kennedy's) mistake has been the annual releases. The MCU formula wouldn't have ever worked with Star Wars, even if all of these films were universally liked.


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## MShadows (Jan 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Whoops, apparently it goes through 2021. I doubt they'll formally fire her, although it's possible she will simply step down. From what I understand, she's highly regarded in the industry and is friends with pretty much everyone of relevance, so Disney would not want to potentially alienate them. So even if she's "fired", it would be done in a way for her to save face.
> 
> Does anyone know if the plan is for Kevin Feige to replace her? Or is he just signed to a single film (or trilogy)? As much as I respect Feige and love what he's done for the MCU, I feel like part of Disney's (Or Kennedy's) mistake has been the annual releases. The MCU formula wouldn't have ever worked with Star Wars, even if all of these films were universally liked.


She's the reason why the new movies suck and why they took a dump on both the originals and classic fans. 

They need to get her as far away from any SW content as possible. She's done nothing but harm!


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 5, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> What's with fanbases wanting men to fuck so much? *Is it due to a lack representation?*




Yep. It's a pretty serious matter to them, not in terms of shipping, but rather representation and identification, as well as the whole difficulty of those being in the closet. When revealed that what helped them along the way only ultimately left them hanging, and revealed to be a lie, that's going to be hard to deal with. The kind that needs therapy. Of course, Moffat and Gatiss aren't absolved for their own responsibility for leading own their audience to arguably the point of gaslighting.



~Gesy~ said:


> I know Supernatural makes meta jokes on occasion about fans wanting Sam and Dean to fuck despite the fact that they are legit blood brothers!



And yet, I'm guessing there's hundreds of people out there that want them to be romantic.

Then again, it is a world where _Twilight _and _Fifty Shades of Grey_ are major book-sellers and money-rakers.


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## Mider T (Jan 5, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> What's with fanbases wanting men to fuck so much? Is it due to a lack representation? I know Supernatural makes meta jokes on occasion about fans wanting Sam and Dean to fuck despite the fact that they are legit blood brothers!


Reminds me a bit of Ben 10 fanfiction.


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## dr_shadow (Jan 5, 2020)

*China box office (Jan 4)*

Ip Man: $97,731,292
Star Wars: $17,411,656


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jan 5, 2020)

Fire Kennedy. Bring back Lucas


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## dr_shadow (Jan 5, 2020)

Ultra Instinct Vegito said:


> Fire Kennedy. Bring back Lucas



I want John Woo to direct a Star Wars movie.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 5, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> 400 years before the skywalker saga


Yoda in his prime !!!


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## Pilaf (Jan 5, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Speaking of which, was it ever revealed who this mystery narrator is? The SW events from their perspective seem to have happened in a very distant past. Or perhaps it's just a creative choice that looked cool?



In Lucas' original draft, his sequel draft and the opening from the Star Wars novelization, the events of Star Wars are recorded in a book called the Journal of the Whills.

Yoda was trained by some of their representatives in Clone Wars:

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Jan 5, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> In Lucas' original draft, his sequel draft and the opening from the Star Wars novelization, the events of Star Wars are recorded in a book called the Journal of the Whills.
> 
> Yoda was trained by some of their representatives in Clone Wars:


This scene here is very well done and portrays the mystique of the Whills just like Lucas intended it. 

I would've taken his original 7-9 draft over the horse shit that we got from Disney. At least we would've gotten the whole complete story from the man himself.


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## Pilaf (Jan 5, 2020)

MShadows said:


> This scene here is very well done and portrays the mystique of the Whills just like Lucas intended it.
> 
> I would've taken his original 7-9 draft over the horse shit that we got from Disney. At least we would've gotten the whole complete story from the man himself.



Yeah, not gonna lie. I'm intrigued by the descriptions of Lucas' script. Now, I'm not of the opinion Lucas should have unchecked control of anything. The stark differences between the OT and the prequels is a cautionary tale about what happens when nobody tells George "No." But the problem is telling George "No" all the time. A solid 60% of his ideas are usable, in an edited form. Like this scene. It's George's lore but refined by Filoni.


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## Pilaf (Jan 5, 2020)

So, this is slightly off topic but kind of amusing - I got banned from the prequelmemes rubreddit for pointing out someone who posted an OC has shaky hands, and that he should see a doctor because that can be a sign of an underlying medical condition. 

I guess people are so cynical and used to trolling that they can't accept legitimate advice as heartfelt any more. 

If any of you movie fans out there have shaky hands, please see a doctor and get a checkup done. It can be a sign that something is bad wrong with you and it's better to rule that out than to never know until it's too late. They didn't wanna listen to me on the Reddit but maybe you guys will.


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## BlueDemon (Jan 5, 2020)

Why go back in time instead of going forward? Not that I'm going to complain as long as it's done well.


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## Pilaf (Jan 5, 2020)

BlueDemon said:


> Why go back in time instead of going forward? Not that I'm going to complain as long as it's done well.




So we can get Keanu Reeves as Darth Revan.

Reactions: Like 6


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## BlueDemon (Jan 5, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> So we can get Keanu Reeves as Darth Revan.


I'm all for this 

"YOU'RE BREATHTAKING" 
- Jedi die of Force Choke


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 5, 2020)

Probably won't get a constructive answer to this. But would you guys have preferred Anakin Skywalker to speak to Kylo instead of Han?


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## dr_shadow (Jan 5, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> Probably won't get a constructive answer to this. But would you guys have preferred Anakin Skywalker to speak to Kylo instead of Han?



*YES!*


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## Karyu Endan (Jan 5, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> Probably won't get a constructive answer to this. But would you guys have preferred Anakin Skywalker to speak to Kylo instead of Han?



On the one hand, I enjoyed the call back to TFA that we got through Han and it works well enough.

On the other hand, Anakin's Force Ghost never speaking to Ben about his obsession with Vader and setting the record straight is one of the biggest plot holes of the entire sequel trilogy, and Anakin finally speaking to Ben after his battle with Rey and Leia's sacrifice could have resolved it.

The opening line that Palpatine has using Snoke's and Vader's voices implies that Palpatine had been impersonating Vader inside Kylo's head when he's speaking to Vader's helmet. Obviously Anakin would want to speak with Kylo about it. Maybe that could have been the 'pull to the Light' Kylo felt in TFA. Anakin may have been _trying_ to commune with Kylo the whole time, but _couldn't_ because Palpatine's impersonation of Vader was blocking him, and the tug of war between both sides of the Force caused by Kylo's emotional conflict was only exacerbated by a _literal_ Force tug of war between Anakin and Palpatine behind the scenes.

It's only when Leia reaches out to her son that Anakin can overcome his former master's hold on Kylo and speak with him, since Leia's assistance tips the scale in Anakin's favour. Anakin could explain what was going on to Ben and how he never wanted to be or enjoyed being Vader, and Kylo was looking up to the very worst part of him. He could also go on to say he (and Kylo/Ben for that matter) can't _erase_ the past even if he wishes he could, but he can _learn from it_ and help those who would come after him avoid a similar fate, basically another way to word the lesson Yoda gave Luke in TLJ. And as a bonus he could remark at some point that this is the _second_ time that one of his children saved him from Palpatine - his son saved him in RotJ and his daughter saved him now - and that Leia refused to give up on Ben, just like how Luke refused to give up on him once upon a time, in order to make the parallel to RotJ more explicit and meaningful.

Note that we can still have the scene with Han after this. Anakin could leave the scene telling Ben that he can't force someone to do what he wants and that Ben has to make the choice himself. At this point, Han could come in and the scene in TRoS would play out largely the same (and Ben saying he knows what he has to do but doesn't know if he has the strength has further significance), except Han may not need to say that Kylo Ren is dead: Ben would have recognized that himself already.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 5, 2020)

Karyu Endan said:


> On the one hand, I enjoyed the call back to TFA that we got through Han and it works well enough.
> 
> On the other hand, Anakin's Force Ghost never speaking to Ben about his obsession with Vader and setting the record straight is one of the biggest plot holes of the entire sequel trilogy, and Anakin finally speaking to Ben after his battle with Rey and Leia's sacrifice could have resolved it.
> 
> ...


Yeah. I asked because Anakin was originally planned to be in this movie. And it's weird that his voice is heard speaking to Rey but he ignored the inner turmoil of his actual grandson who dedicated himself to Vader's legacy


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 5, 2020)




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## reiatsuflow (Jan 5, 2020)

mr_shadow said:


> I want John Woo to direct a Star Wars movie.



I didn’t know you hated Star Wars


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## Fang (Jan 5, 2020)

Yeah this is pretty much the worst case scenario. Like I said months back, if its opening weekend compared to TLJ was weaker and if it failed to match TLJ's total life time gross then heads are definitely going to roll at Lucas Film. Especially Kennedy's in some way considering how much Iger has been publicly favoring Favaru.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 5, 2020)

*Terrio told , "The balance of the Force always, as George [Lucas] has said, means that the Dark and the Light exist." Terrio continued, saying, "There are corners everywhere in the galaxy where the Dark still exists, except that with the rise of Palpatine and the original trilogy, I think the way George would describe it is that the Dark had become too powerful to the point where the Light had almost disappeared."

*

Where to even begin. . .


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## MartialHorror (Jan 5, 2020)

The only consolation is that it probably will cross the billion dollar mark.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 5, 2020)

Mandalorian movie


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 5, 2020)

whelp 58% plummet...

Can't say it doesn't deserve it...


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## Karyu Endan (Jan 5, 2020)

Comic Book Guy said:


> *Terrio told , "The balance of the Force always, as George [Lucas] has said, means that the Dark and the Light exist." Terrio continued, saying, "There are corners everywhere in the galaxy where the Dark still exists, except that with the rise of Palpatine and the original trilogy, I think the way George would describe it is that the Dark had become too powerful to the point where the Light had almost disappeared."
> 
> *
> 
> Where to even begin. . .




*Spoiler*: _about what 'balance to the Force' means. Also, Palpatine should have been de-powered rather than killed_ 



This quote in particular isn't exactly wrong. During the years between episodes 3 and 4 the Dark Side does indeed have a disproportionate influence over the galaxy with Palpatine and Vader running the Empire and Obi-Wan and Yoda hiding out in backwater planets just biding their time to eventually train the Skywalker twins. It wouldn't be until episode 6 that the Force would be 'balanced' again with Anakin redeeming himself and dying, Obi-Wan and Yoda redeeming the old order and dying, and Palpatine... dying, leaving Luke a Jedi without the baggage of the old order (at least at first).

I remember seeing arguments that Anakin brought balance to the Force when he reduced the Jedi down to two members to equal the number of Sith, and the Jedi believing the prophecy meant destroying the Sith was merely the Jedi being arrogant. But that interpretation ignores both the state of the galaxy after the Jedi and Sith are of equal number, and George Lucas' own statement that the Sith's overuse of the Dark Side is a corruption that unbalances the Force in its own right, and the Force cannot be balanced unless the Sith are destroyed. That doesn't mean that the Jedi weren't arrogant in their interpretation of the prophecy, since the prequels make it very clear that the old Jedi order, in its stagnancy and desperation to avoid the Dark Side at all costs, was _also_ a corrupting influence on the Force that needed to be reformed or eliminated to achieve balance, and the Jedi failed to recognize that before it was too late.

If you only take episodes 1-6 and ignore the sequel trilogy, everything checks out. Jedi prophecy says Anakin will bring balance to the Force. He does this by destroying the corrupt Jedi order, leaving the survivors to change their ways, and then destroying the Sith, which includes Palpatine and himself.

The sequel trilogy, especially TRoS, throws a big wrench into the whole narrative by reviving Palpatine and retroactively having him create Snoke and manipulate Kylo, since Anakin never _truly_ brought balance to the Force if Palpatine has been abusing the Dark Side off-screen for the past few decades since his apparent death. And if Palpatine can cheat death just by clinging to the physical universe through the Dark Side of the Force, killing him again isn't going to bring balance to the Force either (since he can just keep coming back to tempt more force-sensitives like Ben to do his bidding). At that point you might as well sever Palpatine's connection to the Force altogether and make him live out the rest of his days unable to use the Force at all. That way, he has to live with his failure as the 'rebel scum' overcome the scars left by the Empire he worked so hard to build, and the few who would have been loyal to him flock to other would-be tyrants with more to offer. It would be especially ironic for Palpatine, who said that Darth Plagueis' only fear was losing his power... only for Palpatine himself to lose his power and, unlike the master he murdered, live to experience what true powerlessness feels like.


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## MShadows (Jan 5, 2020)

Karyu Endan said:


> *Spoiler*: _about what 'balance to the Force' means. Also, Palpatine should have been de-powered rather than killed_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Too much work for big brain Disney... you want them to exhaust the last of their neurons?


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 6, 2020)

Comic Book Guy said:


> *Terrio told , "The balance of the Force always, as George [Lucas] has said, means that the Dark and the Light exist." Terrio continued, saying, "There are corners everywhere in the galaxy where the Dark still exists, except that with the rise of Palpatine and the original trilogy, I think the way George would describe it is that the Dark had become too powerful to the point where the Light had almost disappeared."
> 
> *
> 
> Where to even begin. . .



Begin here:


_"There are some who would like to exploit our power. The Sith are but one. *Too much of Dark or Light would be the undoing of life as you understand it."
*_


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## Undertaker (Jan 6, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Those are Doomcock's Laws of Canon, a big part of the driving philosophical force of the Fandom Menace.



"Disney Star Wars is just a bad fanfiction written by entitled rich kids."




Pilaf said:


> Palpatine goes on Space Youtube and goes viral with the announcement he's coming with a huge fleet.






UtahCrip said:


> aint watching this but did my boy fin hit?





UtahCrip said:


> damn. hollywood stay trying to neuter the blacc man. should have known after billy dee aint fucc the princess bacc in the day. cant convince me she'd rather be kissing on her brother than getting that bbc.



lel, out of nowhere UC is here


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 6, 2020)

Undertaker said:


> "Disney Star Wars is just a bad fanfiction written by entitled rich kids."



No, I think the distinction of bad fan-fiction belongs to the guy who wrote _Supernatural Encounters: The Trial and Transformation of Arhul Hextrophon.  _

By any reasonable standards, plagiarizing another franchise (the original _Battlestar Galactica's premise)_ for the back-story of Humans in the Star Wars universe, and out-right Christianizing the Force and stripping away all its uniqueness, would be a prime example of bad writing, original or fan-fiction.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Jan 6, 2020)

I finished "The Mandalorian" and still enjoyed it, although I did feel like the 2nd half had questionable pacing. I'm also not sure how I feel about that darksaber shit. 

As for the whole 'Baby Yoda Vs Rey' thing in terms of who is more broken, it's... stupid either way? Baby Yoda is obviously part of a race that doesn't age the same way and apparently is gifted with the force. Rey is both the blood relative of Palpatine and was 'chosen' by the force. I don't think it registers as much with Baby Yoda because he is a supporting character, not the protagonist. I've never really minded Rey's abilities, as I don't think she was any more broken than Luke in the OT beyond what special effects would allow. The difference between Luke and Rey is Luke faced steeper challenges (Vader instead of Ren, for example).


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## dr_shadow (Jan 7, 2020)

I'm back to watching The Last Jedi (when you work full time you end up seeing movies in 20-minute segments), and TBH I think people are too hard on this movie. Now that I'm seeing it with my expectations already subverted, I can kind of appreciate what Johnson was going for.

All the Luke-Rey stuff is great. I don't see why people have a problem with Luke being a "quitter". Isn't getting the cynical coach to come out of retirement and train one last generation of champions the plot to every sports movie ever? And half of all kung fu movies ever?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deathbringerpt (Jan 7, 2020)

Luke actually losing motivation, turning into a loser and having an heroic comeback is actually a plot thread that could be the greatest thing ever made. But Luke in Last Jedi is anything but a retired badass, he's more like a secluded retard. "THIS THING THAT HAPPENED IN THE PREQUELS IS UNDISPUTABLE PROOF JEDI ARE *PART* OF THE PROBLEM."

Give me a fucking break. Nice idea, pathetic execution. That's about the entire movie. It's all nice ideas told through a shitty narrative with no payoff.


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## dr_shadow (Jan 7, 2020)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Luke actually losing motivation, turning into a loser and having an heroic comeback



I think this mostly happens in the movie. The one thing I don't understand is why they did the Force projection thing rather than just have him go there in person. I think the idea is supposed to be that he otherwise wouldn't have made it in time, even though we see his (light-speed capable) X-Wing earlier.

It doesn't matter much because the fight is still badass. The reason Luke doesn't swing at Kylo isn't only that he's not physically there, but because the Jedi are pacifists. If the Force makes him so fast that he can just dodge any incoming attack, there's no reason to needlessly harm the opponent.


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## Skaddix (Jan 7, 2020)

I mean considering we introduce teleportation later on...


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## dr_shadow (Jan 7, 2020)

I think I appreciate the sequel trilogy a bit more now, because in hindsight you can view it as being about the relationship between Rey and Kylo. This wasn't apparent to me when I saw the movies at two-year intervals.

It might not be the most interesting theme, but at least in this perspective the movies are "about something" rather than just an incoherent mess.


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## Skaddix (Jan 7, 2020)

So its A shitty Twilight Knockoff set in the Star Wars Universe? SMFH.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 7, 2020)

mr_shadow said:


> I think I appreciate the sequel trilogy a bit more now, because in hindsight you can view it as being about the relationship between Rey and Kylo.



I think you would probably love the twilight movies.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 7, 2020)

lol, you guys... He wasn't complimenting the love story, nor was he even saying that "The Last Jedi" was good. He was just saying that the NT was about their love story, which wasn't immediately apparent when watching the films upon release. 

I DO think "The Last Jedi" is good and I hated the f@cking "Twilight" movies so much that it became the franchise I refused to watch until the end... and I endured the "Puppet Master" franchise, SODONTTRIGGERMEWITHTHOSEKINDSOFCOMMENTSRAWR.

With that said, I don't really agree with Shadow's assessment... although I haven't binged the NT like that either. But I can't stand the Kylo-Rey pairing, so if the NT is about that, why do I enjoy 2/3's of the trilogy?


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## NW (Jan 8, 2020)

These Fandom Menace people are pretty amusing folks.

They've actually deluded themselves into thinking Disney SW "didn't happen in the true Star Wars world" even though its all make believe fairy tail bullshit so none of it "happened" anyway. 

"But it's not kannin! Dat movie is so bad! Oh please don't let it be kannin..."

Grab a hot chocolate and talk like a sane person lmao.


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## Sunrider (Jan 8, 2020)

NW said:


> These Fandom Menace people are pretty amusing folks.
> 
> They've actually deluded themselves into thinking Disney SW "didn't happen in the true Star Wars world" even though its all make believe fairy tail bullshit so none of it "happened" anyway.
> 
> ...


The Star Wars fandom is easily the most caustic I've come across, but one thing I _can_ say is that the more time I spend thinking about episode 9, the less I can believe someone actually got away with making that movie. 

These guys love to talk about fan-fiction and canon and self-inserts, but if anything reads like pubescent fan-fiction, it's _The Rise of Skywalker_.


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## Garcher (Jan 8, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> Begin here:
> 
> 
> _"There are some who would like to exploit our power. The Sith are but one. *Too much of Dark or Light would be the undoing of life as you understand it."*_


I always thought that the ideal, selfless Jedi is in balance with the Force
and the Sith bring imbalance through their selfish exploitation of the Force

not this Light vs Dark stuff. Jedi and Sith aren't the Force themselves, they just harness its power


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## dr_shadow (Jan 8, 2020)

I started watching The Clone Wars (2008), the theatrical pilot of the show, and man there's some good action in here. I had completely forgotten.

Actually saw this when it was in theaters, but because it was animated some genius had decided it was a children's movie and dubbed it into Swedish, which was super distracting. Now that the voices are the same as in the prequel trilogy (or at least good impersonations thereof) I can kind of focus on what's happening.


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## chibbselect (Jan 8, 2020)

Yes this is 53 minutes long but it's worth it just for buff Snoke


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 8, 2020)

Would have saved this franchise if they went this route


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## reiatsuflow (Jan 8, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I finished "The Mandalorian" and still enjoyed it, although I did feel like the 2nd half had questionable pacing. I'm also not sure how I feel about that darksaber shit.



The droid takes out like 30 stormtroopers on a speeder bike with no problems but then suddenly has to self destruct at the end to make it past maybe ten stormtroopers because ThERe'S ToO mAnY oF tHeM yOu doN'T hAvE tHaT kInD of FirEpoWer. And now that I think about it the droid took out like 30 bad guys in episode one unscathed. 

The droid says he'll attack anybody that threatens baby yoda but then a stormtrooper shoots a flame thrower at baby yoda and the droid completely ignores it, continues breaking the sewer grating  

And that dark saber, good call 

I haven't seen every episode but ep 2 was the best of the batch because nobody talked much and I was into the mellow sidequest travelogue vibe.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 8, 2020)

@Sunrider Personally, I have believed in the idea that the Star Wars film follow a Ring Composition/Chiastic Structure for a while now, the way certain themes and elements repeat themselves in different ways across the films.

It certainly feels like the case for the Original and Prequel Trilogies together, and I can see the same with the Sequel Trilogy and how it connects to the rest of the Saga.

As an example, Rey's confrontation with Palpatine firmly links together with Palpatine in both _Revenge of the Sith _and _Return of the Jedi. _

In _Return, _Palpatine goads Luke into attempting to strike him down, engineering a fight where he hopes Luke will kill Vader and "take his place by Palpatine's side". It is evident he is seeking a younger, healthier apprentice to replace the crippled Darth Vader.

In _Revenge, _Palpatine is able to successfully turn Anakin to the Dark Side, and he knows Anakin will become more powerful than himself or Yoda. In fact, Vader already believes he possesses enough power to destroy Palpatine. 

One question raised by both scenes is why Palpatine desires such powerful apprentices, even though the possibility exists that they'll be able to strike him down. 

In _Rise, _we receive an answer that links everything together. With Palpatine saying that Rey striking him down in hatred will cause all past Sith spirits and their power (including his own) to flow into her, and make her the new Sith Empress, it gives new meaning to Palpatine's desire to make Anakin and Luke his apprentices. 

In the eyes of Palpatine, Anakin and Luke were the _perfect vessels _for the Sith spirits and their power, and would have been the ultimate victory of the Sith - the power of a millennia of Sith contained within the Chosen One, or his bloodline.

With Rey, it was Palpatine's own blood that finally produced someone with the potential he so desired, after his son failed to possess the strength in the Force that Palpatine wanted. But when his servants couldn't find Rey, he settled on corrupting Ben Solo. When Rey was found again as a Jedi, that gave Palpatine two potential vessels: the grandson of the Chosen One, and his own granddaughter.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Jan 8, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> @Sunrider Personally, I have believed in the idea that the Star Wars film follow a Ring Composition/Chiastic Structure for a while now, the way certain themes and elements repeat themselves in different ways across the films.
> 
> It certainly feels like the case for the Original and Prequel Trilogies together, and I can see the same with the Sequel Trilogy and how it connects to the rest of the Saga.
> 
> ...


Palpatine housing all the spirits of past Sith is one big blatant retcon.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Son Of Man (Jan 8, 2020)

Yall reading the Kylo ren comics?


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## dr_shadow (Jan 9, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Palpatine housing all the spirits of past Sith is one big blatant retcon.



IMO it's similar to the Jet Li movie The One (2001), where whenever -in this case- a Force user is killed, their power gets redistributed among the surviving ones.

If there are only ever two Sith, they each wield 1/4 of the Force.


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## dr_shadow (Jan 9, 2020)

Although by this logic, after the deaths of Palpatine and Vader, Luke should have briefly been the only living Force user (before he started training Leia), so he should have been able to wield the whole thing with no pushback, making him essentially a god.

Rey should likewise be a goddess now too.


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## Kingslayer (Jan 9, 2020)

Palaptine likes to fuck with skywalker family.


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## MShadows (Jan 9, 2020)

In the name of the High Ground, the Force and the Holy Jedi!


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## dr_shadow (Jan 9, 2020)

For some reason, season 1 of The Clone Wars isn't available on YouKu (the licensed streamer for Star Wars in China), even though the other seasons are there. 

I can't be bothered to go find it elsewhere, so I'll watch something else first and see if it shows up again later.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 9, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Palpatine housing all the spirits of past Sith is one big blatant retcon.



Blatant how, ret-conning what?  

The bare minimum we knew of the Rule of Two was that it meant there can only be two Sith at any one time to make sure the Sith didn't destroy each other with in-fighting. Palpatine housing the spirits and power of all past Sith gives both a greater reason for the Rule of Two's existence, and reason why the Rule of Two Sith's existence caused such imbalance in the Force. 

It means that the Rule of Two ensures an unbroken line of Sith power building up across a thousand years (perhaps further back), and that the culmination of all Sith spirits and their power in one vessel is the true source of imbalance.


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## Revan Reborn (Jan 9, 2020)

Shit doesn't make sense, Yoda by his lonesome contended with the collective might of all the sith. Palpatine would of had to grow magnitudes in power to compete with Anakin, let alone the entire Jedi order of past.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Jan 9, 2020)

Kingslayer said:


> Palaptine likes to fuck with skywalker family.


Well he kind of created them.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 9, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> Begin here:
> 
> 
> _"There are some who would like to exploit our power. The Sith are but one. *Too much of Dark or Light would be the undoing of life as you understand it."*_



Argh, the Father, Son, Daughter.

I never liked the very idea of those characters. They scream fanfic idea. But yes, that is what it is.

Though, how I remember it from Lucas's explanation was --



Garcher said:


> I always thought that the ideal, selfless Jedi is in balance with the Force
> and the Sith bring imbalance through their selfish exploitation of the Force
> 
> not this Light vs Dark stuff. Jedi and Sith aren't the Force themselves, they just harness its power



that.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 9, 2020)

Honestly, at this point, can you make any Star Wars related media and not have it feel a little bit like fanfiction?


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 9, 2020)

Revan Reborn said:


> Shit doesn't make sense, Yoda by his lonesome contended with the collective might of all the sith. Palpatine would of had to grow magnitudes in power to compete with Anakin, let alone the entire Jedi order of past.



So, what's the case with the Dark Side Demi-God Sidious of Legends, then? The same one that needed every deceased Jedi across potentially 25,000 years to keep him from escaping the afterlife?

The simplest answer to your question is that Yoda was just that exceptionally powerful. Powerful enough to contend, but not powerful enough to defeat Sidious.


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## dr_shadow (Jan 10, 2020)




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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jan 10, 2020)

Funny how snoke did better against Rey than Palpatine did


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## Revan Reborn (Jan 10, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> So, what's the case with the Dark Side Demi-God Sidious of Legends, then? The same one that needed every deceased Jedi across potentially 25,000 years to keep him from escaping the afterlife?
> 
> The simplest answer to your question is that Yoda was just that exceptionally powerful. Powerful enough to contend, but not powerful enough to defeat Sidious.


You think I support that either?

The notion that the greatest of the Sith of each generation multiplied by like 30 equates to Yoda is ludicrous, and dumb.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Revan Reborn (Jan 10, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Jan 10, 2020)

Yeah the whole "I CREATED SNOKE!" thing is kind of BS considering how Snoke's beatdown of Ray somehow seemed more dominant than Palpatine's beatdown of Ray and Ben... although I guess his beatdown of the entire rebellion was pretty bad-ass. 

Still -- how come no one comments on how Palpatine can apparently farm Sith Lord level threats? That honestly seems far more useful than all of Palpatine's plotting.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2020)

Palpy had way too much going on for me to care about any of it.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 10, 2020)

According to , a blog with a fairly decent track record when it comes Star Wars leaks, the next era of Star Wars will take place 400 years before the Skywalker saga in a time it dubbed The High Republic.

Although specific details are obviously still unknown, the report says the new era’s overall story will be made up of interconnected pieces in different forms of media, including the next set of films. Disney is referring to it as Project Luminous.

Where this gets interesting is a different report from , with information Making Star Wars says lines up with what it had independently heard. According to Ziro.hu, the first item on the list of Project Luminous cross-media releases is a game.

No specific details about the game, such as genre or who could be making it, were shared, but the site says it will be available in 2021 to kick off the new era. It’s also not clear if this is some sort of tie-in game on mobile, or a fully-fledged console title on the level of Jedi Fallen Order.

Ziro.hu goes on to say that Disney wants to adopt the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s model of independent, but ultimately connected movies. Project Luminous is said to be the core upon which the new films, comics, and supposed game will all be built.

Luminous will be officially revealed – likely under a different name – this year, followed by the game’s release in 2021, and the first film in the new saga in 2022.


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## Zef (Jan 10, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 10, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> According to , a blog with a fairly decent track record when it comes Star Wars leaks, the next era of Star Wars will take place 400 years before the Skywalker saga in a time it dubbed The High Republic.
> 
> Although specific details are obviously still unknown, the report says the new era’s overall story will be made up of interconnected pieces in different forms of media, including the next set of films. Disney is referring to it as Project Luminous.



Sounds likely. The recent Kylo Ren comics says a site that Luke, Lor San Tekka and Ben Solo visited in the past dates back to the High Republic era:



So, they're already planting the seeds for whatever will be set in the High Republic era, including the nature of the era as a "time of greatly expanded Jedi activity".


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## Revan Reborn (Jan 11, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Ray somehow seemed more dominant than Palpatine's beatdown of Ray and Ben


Sidious literally KO's them with a force drain.
Rey was amped by all the Jedi once she got up.

Big difference.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 11, 2020)

Revan Reborn said:


> Sidious literally KO's them with a force drain.
> Rey was amped by all the Jedi once she got up.
> 
> Big difference.



Ugh, I meant to Snoke was more dominant.


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## Garcher (Jan 11, 2020)

man I didn't know the grievous in the 3d animated series was a team rocket tier villain


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## Garcher (Jan 11, 2020)

i mean he literally gets his ass kicked by JAR JAR


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 11, 2020)

Garcher said:


> man I didn't know the grievous in the 3d animated series was a team rocket tier villain




Yeah, its a shame they went with the movie joke version.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Jan 11, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Yeah, its a shame they went with the movie joke version.



To be fair it was always incredibly silly how Grievious was supposed to be this ultimate baddass while he was just a cowardly mini boss with a quirky cough in the movies.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 11, 2020)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> To be fair it was always incredibly silly how Grievious was supposed to be this ultimate baddass while he was just a cowardly mini boss with a quirky cough in the movies.



The movies should have kept him a badass.
Since they skipped the wars it would have been a good way to show how hard the battles had been.

I know the wars were more of a side event compared to Palpatine's part the movies focused on, but they didn't need to feel that way.
In the movie you could clearly feel how they wanted to get that part of the story over with.
Which was a shame.


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## dr_shadow (Jan 11, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> The movies should have kept him a badass.
> Since they skipped the wars it would have been a good way to show how hard the battles had been.
> 
> I know the wars were more of a side event compared to Palpatine's part the movies focused on, but they didn't need to feel that way.
> ...



With minor rewrites you could have started the prequel trilogy with Attack of the Clones. Just have Anakin and Padme meet as adults when he's assigned to be her bodyguard, and get rid of his mother. Then you basically don't need The Phantom Menace, because nothing of indispensable consequence happens in that movie.

That way you could have fit a (live-action) Clone Wars movie in-between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. Where you could maybe have Anakin become gradually brutalized due to the horrors of war, instead of the now-cut mother storyline. Instead of the Sandpeople scene you could maybe give him some kind of My Lai moment with Separatist civilians. (Not sure if this happens in the animated show or not)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Revan Reborn (Jan 11, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Ugh, I meant to Snoke was more dominant.


I know.


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## BlueDemon (Jan 11, 2020)

A bit offtopic, but is anyone playing SW Galaxy of Heroes around here?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 11, 2020)

mr_shadow said:


> With minor rewrites you could have started the prequel trilogy with Attack of the Clones. Just have Anakin and Padme meet as adults when he's assigned to be her bodyguard, and get rid of his mother. Then you basically don't need The Phantom Menace, because nothing of indispensable consequence happens in that movie.
> 
> That way you could have fit a (live-action) Clone Wars movie in-between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. Where you could maybe have Anakin become gradually brutalized due to the horrors of war, instead of the now-cut mother storyline. Instead of the Sandpeople scene you could maybe give him some kind of My Lai moment with Separatist civilians. (Not sure if this happens in the animated show or not)



You could even keep the best bits of phantom menace like maul by shifting them into the war part.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Jan 11, 2020)

Revan Reborn said:


> I know.



I know that technically, Palpatine displayed more power and Ray had obviously improved since TLJ, but from a storytelling perspective I'd still say Snoke's beatdown of her was more impressive. It helps that the lightening looks a lot more brutal than the... life sucking thing he did...

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 11, 2020)

Of all the timelines this supposed "new trilogy" is going to take place in they had to pick one of the most boring possible? This shit feels more like it should be a digital series rather than a set of films.

I mean really what is there to make a film about? The Sith are still in hiding so no Jedi vs Sith action, no major wars because the Galaxy is now mostly at peace so no real major conflict, and there is nothing that shapes galactic events until the Prequels come along so what the hell are they even going to focus on? We all know people wanted an Old Republic time period instead because that would involve the old Sith Wars and have all those Sith and Jedi action along with a large scale war that would involve the whole Galaxy and shape the events that would come later in the Films but instead they want to focus on a time period set centuries in the aftermath? Not interested.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 11, 2020)

I want to see a Star Wars movie set in the future... er, like farther in the future, long after the cast of the NT have died. I'd be curious what the technology is like and so on.


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## Revan Reborn (Jan 12, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I want to see a Star Wars movie set in the future... er, like farther in the future, long after the cast of the NT have died. I'd be curious what the technology is like and so on.


The ancient sith, Jedi are far more interesting tbh. Diving into the darkest depths of Sith ritual etc.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 12, 2020)

Revan Reborn said:


> The ancient sith, Jedi are far more interesting tbh. Diving into the darkest depths of Sith ritual etc.



There is also, no future stories to tell. They destroyed star wars and then plundered its future.


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## BlueDemon (Jan 12, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> There is also, no future stories to tell. They destroyed star wars and then plundered its future.


Nah. They just fucked up the Skywalker Sage. Anything else can still be good.

...if it didn't come from Disney


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## Pilaf (Jan 12, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I want to see a Star Wars movie set in the future... er, like farther in the future, long after the cast of the NT have died. I'd be curious what the technology is like and so on.




The technology barely evolves or changes in the 10,000 plus years of Galactic history shown in the EU and in Canon so far, so what makes you think it's gonna evolve any if you skip forward a few generations?


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## reiatsuflow (Jan 12, 2020)

Yeah it's hard to track technological advancement in star wars because it's 99% fantasy and 1% science fiction so you don't really get the sense of technological continuity between the eras. The series values imaginativeness over that stuff. 

At least before disney.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 12, 2020)

Kylo's fighter looked kinda new


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## MartialHorror (Jan 12, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> The technology barely evolves or changes in the 10,000 plus years of Galactic history shown in the EU and in Canon so far, so what makes you think it's gonna evolve any if you skip forward a few generations?





reiatsuflow said:


> Yeah it's hard to track technological advancement in star wars because it's 99% fantasy and 1% science fiction so you don't really get the sense of technological continuity between the eras. The series values imaginativeness over that stuff.
> 
> At least before disney.



I don't care about the EU, but if they move forward in the timeline, then they could do their own thing. See, this is the type of stuff that leads me to believe that Star Wars is a very limited brand from a creative standpoint, if the logic is "Technology barely evolved in in the established past media, so they can't do anything new".


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## Fang (Jan 12, 2020)

>TROS will barely crawl to a billion after having a bigger and worse box office drop its first two weeks then TLJ before it did

Many really goes to show that alienating and shitting on your fans was never a particularly smart business strategy but the same people defending the Sequels as unbashed apologists will still brush this off

What a disaster for JJ and Kennedy


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 12, 2020)



Reactions: Like 3


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## dr_shadow (Jan 13, 2020)

This was nominated for more Academy Awards (3) than Avengers: Endgame (1)!

It's like when Palpatine got nominated for Supreme Chancellor.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 13, 2020)

mr_shadow said:


> This was nominated for more Academy Awards (3) than Avengers: Endgame (1)!
> 
> It's like when Palpatine got nominated for Supreme Chancellor.




Nomination doesn't equal win, though.
A win will need even more cheese from the Mouse.


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## Mider T (Jan 13, 2020)




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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 13, 2020)

They've learned nothing.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 13, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> They've learned nothing.


And are going to fall even harder.

Funny enough it actually says nothing because not even Rian is sure he is getting anything so that only sounds like desperate media shilling for what is most likely never going to come to fruition.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 13, 2020)

So I saw the stream for this, explain to me why they just didn’t have Rey turn to the dark side, have Kylo who now turn back to Ben rise up and Kill her. Thus the rise of the Skywalker?

Like that fucking small detail there would have save this movie. Like rey story line have zero development


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## MartialHorror (Jan 13, 2020)

I doubt the Rian Johnson Star Wars movie will actually happen, especially if that leak which claimed Iger didn't care for TLJ and Kennedy -- who's probably on her way out herself -- was his biggest supporter. But "Knives Out" was a big enough hit that it might not be entirely off the table. I keep hearing about all of these alleged Star Wars projects though, so who knows what will actually happen at this point. But if they haven't put anything in writing yet, I would assume at the absolute least, Disney is probably prioritizing something else right now.


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## MShadows (Jan 13, 2020)

Huey Freeman said:


> So I saw the stream for this, explain to me why they just didn’t have Rey turn to the dark side, have Kylo who now turn back to Ben rise up and Kill her. Thus the rise of the Skywalker?
> 
> Like that fucking small detail there would have save this movie. Like rey story line have zero development


Because they’re dumb as fuck.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 13, 2020)

Huey Freeman said:


> So I saw the stream for this, explain to me why they just didn’t have Rey turn to the dark side, have Kylo who now turn back to Ben rise up and Kill her. Thus the rise of the Skywalker?
> 
> Like that fucking small detail there would have save this movie. Like rey story line have zero development



As bad as the movie was received, if they did that it would've been much worse. Let's face it, I think most people who've hated this trilogy would've hated RoS regardless of what they did with Rey. All having her turn to the dark side would do is piss off those who were still on board with the trilogy. It would've been far too controversial for having one of the few female leads of a male-oriented franchise turn evil.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 13, 2020)

I noticed that Reys new lightsaber flashed green and blue before the yellow blade appeared. Is that normal for most lightsabers or could she have 3 crystals in her saber?


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 13, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> As bad as the movie was received, if they did that it would've been much worse. Let's face it, I think most people who've hated this trilogy would've hated RoS regardless of what they did with Rey. All having her turn to the dark side would do is piss off those who were still on board with the trilogy. It would've been far too controversial for having one of the few female leads of a male-oriented franchise turn evil.


It would make sense Kylo had more character development than Rey. Rey started off powerful and ended off Powerful


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## MShadows (Jan 13, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> As bad as the movie was received, if they did that it would've been much worse. Let's face it, I think most people who've hated this trilogy would've hated RoS regardless of what they did with Rey. All having her turn to the dark side would do is piss off those who were still on board with the trilogy. It would've been far too controversial for having one of the few female leads of a male-oriented franchise turn evil.


Many people actually think Rey would've been better off joining the Dark side. 
Also, Kylo Ren shouldn't have been killed off because now the entire Skywalker bloodline is extinct. 
Instead they had the absolutely retarded idea of having Rey steal their namesake. 

Kylo Ren is a much better character than Rey anyway, so him surviving over her wouldn't have turned anyone off.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 13, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Many people actually think Rey would've been better off joining the Dark side.
> Also, Kylo Ren shouldn't have been killed off because now the entire Skywalker bloodline is extinct.
> Instead they had the absolutely retarded idea of having Rey steal their namesake.
> 
> Kylo Ren is a much better character than Rey anyway, so him surviving over her wouldn't have turned anyone off.


exactly it’s pretty stupid to have a Palpatine relative steal the Skywalker namesake


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## Son Of Man (Jan 13, 2020)

MShadows said:


> now the entire Skywalker bloodline is extinct.


Do you not subscribe to the "kylo force impregnated rey when he revived her" fan theory?


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## MShadows (Jan 13, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> Do you not subscribe to the "kylo force impregnated rey when he revived her" fan theory?


Is that a thing?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 13, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Many people actually think Rey would've been better off joining the Dark side.
> Also, Kylo Ren shouldn't have been killed off because now the entire Skywalker bloodline is extinct.
> Instead they had the absolutely retarded idea of having Rey steal their namesake.
> 
> Kylo Ren is a much better character than Rey anyway, so him surviving over her wouldn't have turned anyone off.



She was a naturally talented idiot savant who, when pushed to the limit of what nature had given her reacted by absolutely losing her shit and delving into the dark side...That was her first major conflict and she didn't win it..she just..destroyed a more experienced enemy in a fit of rage. She was never a hero, she was never heroic, nothing about her is beneficent or kind.

She like Holdo is a parasitic interloper who is fueled by fury and sanctimony and entitlement. Her only path was to fall to the darkside and die by either Finn's hands or Ben's as he repented.

Making her out to be a hero is as you said, dumb as fuck.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 13, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Is that a thing?


Yes

He place his hand on her stomach and the camera stayed there for a while


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## Lurko (Jan 13, 2020)

Ben forced fucked Rey. Bitch killed him.


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## Lurko (Jan 13, 2020)

Am I right?


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## Son Of Man (Jan 13, 2020)

Yessir Kylo was like

after he shot his force load


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## MartialHorror (Jan 13, 2020)

Huey Freeman said:


> It would make sense Kylo had more character development than Rey. Rey started off powerful and ended off Powerful



I'm not denying that he had more character development, but it wouldn't have saved the movie or the franchise. Fang, NostalgiaFan, Immortal Watchdog and everyone else who hates these movies would still hate them. All that it would change is a bunch of angry feminists. 



MShadows said:


> Many people actually think Rey would've been better off joining the Dark side.
> Also, Kylo Ren shouldn't have been killed off because now the entire Skywalker bloodline is extinct.
> Instead they had the absolutely retarded idea of having Rey steal their namesake.
> 
> Kylo Ren is a much better character than Rey anyway, so him surviving over her wouldn't have turned anyone off.



But once again, it's more than just writing. Rey was viewed as a milestone character, a female lead in a male-centric franchise. Star Wars already has a lot of bad publicity right now. Having the female lead turn evil and be killed by the male hero would be controversial for the wrong reasons. Think of all the backlash "Game of Thrones" received for what they did to Dany. Perhaps if "The Last Jedi" put her on that trajectory, it might've worked, but they didn't. If they did so, I think it would've made "Rise of Skywalker" -- already a mess in terms of story, character and thematic material -- seem even sloppier... and I say this as someone who despised what they actually did with Kylo Ren in the movie.  

But yes, having Rey steal the namesake was dumb.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 13, 2020)

I just rewatched the movie 2 days ago and I found C3PO funny.


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## MShadows (Jan 13, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I'm not denying that he had more character development, but it wouldn't have saved the movie or the franchise. Fang, NostalgiaFan, Immortal Watchdog and everyone else who hates these movies would still hate them. All that it would change is a bunch of angry feminists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Star Wars has bad publicity nowadays because they ruined the franchise.

I honestly don’t think anyone other than the mindless twitter drones would’ve complained.

Turning Rey to the Dark side would’ve at least given her some concrete character development because her “progress” has been all over the place due to the Rian Johnson fiasco.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 13, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Star Wars has bad publicity nowadays because they ruined the franchise.
> 
> I honestly don’t think anyone other than the mindless twitter drones would’ve complained.
> 
> Turning Rey to the Dark side would’ve at least given her some concrete character development because her “progress” has been all over the place due to the Rian Johnson fiasco.



But it still wouldn't have made any sense.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 13, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> But it still wouldn't have made any sense.



Turning Rey evil is the only thing that makes sens . She is a fundamentally dark character


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## Lurko (Jan 13, 2020)

The end sucked with Ben dead. He should have killed a Sith Rey.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 13, 2020)

Lurker said:


> The end sucked with Ben dead. He should have killed a Sith Rey.



The only good ending would have been Exar Kun or Marka Ragnos coming back from the dead making a  face and one shotting everyone and everything in the final battle before sitting on a throne made from their bones Robert E Howard style.

But we can't have nice things when Nonwimo idiots and talentless, tumblrtards and activists write films.



MartialHorror said:


> I'm not denying that he had more character development, but it wouldn't have saved the movie or the franchise. Fang, NostalgiaFan, Immortal Watchdog and everyone else who hates these movies would still hate them.



Adorable.



MartialHorror said:


> All that it would change is a bunch of angry feminists.
> 
> .



Why should anyone care what they think when they don't spend any money on the product?


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## Lurko (Jan 14, 2020)

That last fight needed lightsabers.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 14, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Turning Rey to the Dark side would’ve at least given her some concrete character development because her “progress” has been all over the place due to the Rian Johnson fiasco.



All over the place how, exactly? The revelation in the "The Last Jedi", while it was treated as fact at the time, is easily reinterpreted as what _Rey _knew about her parents, since they raised her with no knowledge of her family history.

What matters is that it works, and this is not the first time Star Wars did a 180 on certain character arcs.

Vader wasn't meant to be Anakin Skywalker at the time _A New Hope_ was created. The original _Empire _draft had Anakin as a Force ghost teaching Luke, but George Lucas couldn't make him work alongside both Yoda and Obi-Wan. It was an epiphany moment that led to Lucas combining Anakin and Vader into one character and putting that into all following _Empire _drafts. But it turned Obi-Wan's words in _A New Hope _into a lie, so the "from a certain point of view" scene exists to explain the sudden change between the two films.

Yes, Rian Johnson went with the idea that Rey came from nothing, but J.J. Abrams was still able to use what Johnson established as set-up, and give it meaningful impact for Rey's character arc. Specifically, finding her place in everything, a theme from _The Last Jedi. _

Learning Palpatine was her grand-father, it introduces the frightening possibility for her that she could end up falling to darkness because of where she came from. Which is why the culmination of Rey's character arc comes down to her _rejecting _Palpatine and his legacy.

If your argument is that Rey should have fallen to the Dark Side "because she's a Palpatine", and that Ben should have killed her alongside Palpatine (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), I can only express how _*horrible *_that kind of ending would have been.


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## BlueDemon (Jan 14, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Turning Rey evil is the only thing that makes sens . She is a fundamentally dark character


How?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 14, 2020)

another billion for the Mouse


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## dr_shadow (Jan 14, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> another billion for the Mouse


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## Xebec (Jan 14, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> another billion for the Mouse


*slurp slurp*


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 14, 2020)

losing to Frozen 2 by ~350M is shamefuru tho

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Jan 14, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Adorable.



Am I wrong?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 14, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Am I wrong?



If she had turned on the Resistance and bowed before Snoke in TLJ, presumably in place of that pointless Casino scene and that movie ended with a horrified Ben Solo realizing the extent of his own monumental sins and seeking out Luke I'd have been a lot more impressed with the sequel trilogy as a whole. I don't know if it could have saved The Last Jedi or the Franchise itself...but it would have resulted in  a film honest with itself.



Catalyst75 said:


> If your argument is that Rey should have fallen to the Dark Side "because she's a Palpatine", and that Ben should have killed her alongside Palpatine (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), I can only express how _*horrible *_that kind of ending would have been.



And thus we run into the biggest issue with the modern aspirant to careers in literature and production. Ultimately they're emotionally incapable of understanding epics...Because the concept that morality and breeding just, just might be binary on some level is horrifying to them due to their inability to separate themselves and their lives from storytelling itself.

And why groups like the Sad Puppies aren't just gaining traction but poised to purge science fiction of their ilk...Because fundamentally the average person rejects projection


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## MartialHorror (Jan 14, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> If she had turned on the Resistance and bowed before Snoke in TLJ, presumably in place of that pointless Casino scene and that movie ended with a horrified Ben Solo realizing the extent of his own monumental sins and seeking out Luke I'd have been a lot more impressed with the sequel trilogy as a whole. I don't know if it could have saved The Last Jedi or the Franchise itself...but it would have resulted in  a film honest with itself.



But we were talking about "Rise of Skywalker". If they had set up a turn to villainy by Rey in TLJ, then it would've gone down much more smoothly.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 14, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Honestly, at this point, can you make any Star Wars related media and not have it feel a little bit like fanfiction?



I suppose I should clarify by saying that, the concept of the Father, Son, and Daughter all screams of the kind of childish fanfiction that a kid in grade school would make up.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 14, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> But we were talking about "Rise of Skywalker". If they had set up a turn to villainy by Rey in TLJ, then it would've gone down much more smoothly.



It would have been at least honest with itself. Rey is an inherently bad person and she should have failed in the end only to have the galaxy saved by the special needs prince redeeming the bloodline and finally finishing what his grandfather started by ending both Jedi and Sith.

Would I have liked the movie? I would have appreciated at least that bit.

But no, the film itself is such a disaster that it's hard to like it except the same way one enjoys watching car crashes.

Reactions: Like 4


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 14, 2020)

BlueDemon said:


> How?



Well, tlj has that scene of her instinctively diving into and full on embracing the dark side calling her.
The one where Luke was horrified, since she showed zero attempts to resist it.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 14, 2020)

Its hilarious how mouseshills did as predicted and pretend this flick only now making a bill is good when it is still well below expectations and a massive drop from TLJ much less TFA


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## Lurko (Jan 14, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Well, tlj has that scene of her instinctively diving into and full on embracing the dark side calling her.
> The one where Luke was horrified, since she showed zero attempts to resist it.


It's in her blood.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 14, 2020)

Yeah like these movies or not, this is one of the few cases where a billion is not quite enough, although admittedly I'm curious what the tickets sold will be. It may sell better than "Attack of the Clones" and "Revenge of the Sith", but it also cost a lot more and seems to be one of the only Star Wars movie that no one really seems happy with.

Edit: Actually, right now it's still beneath "Attack of the Clones" when adjusted for inflation. While it probably will overtake it, it might not go beyond "Revenge of the Sith" -- assuming I'm reading any of this right.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 14, 2020)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I suppose I should clarify by saying that, the concept of the Father, Son, and Daughter all screams of the kind of childish fanfiction that a kid in grade school would make up.





"_The story that George laid out for us_."

So I guess you were unaware that the concept of them came from George himself?


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 14, 2020)

Catty once again using vague quotes to justify shit concepts. What a surprise.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 14, 2020)

I've been hearing that Trevorrow's original episode 9 script has been leaked. Does anyone know any details? Or if it's credible?


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## BlueDemon (Jan 14, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Well, tlj has that scene of her instinctively diving into and full on embracing the dark side calling her.
> The one where Luke was horrified, since she showed zero attempts to resist it.


I interpreted it as her being able to achieve a balance between light and dark. Which she kind of did?


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 14, 2020)

BlueDemon said:


> I interpreted it as her being able to achieve a balance between light and dark. Which she kind of did?


She did nothing of the sort.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 14, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Catty once again using vague quotes to justify shit concepts. What a surprise.



While mass ignoring everyone who challenges


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Jan 14, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I've been hearing that Trevorrow's original episode 9 script has been leaked. Does anyone know any details? Or if it's credible?







Sounds more interesting than what we got.


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 14, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> While mass ignoring everyone who challenges


Gotta smell your own farts


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 14, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Its hilarious how mouseshills did as predicted and pretend this flick only now making a bill is good when it is still well below expectations and a massive drop from TLJ much less TFA


There bout as predictable as catty reusing this   To pretend he won an argument


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 14, 2020)

BlueDemon said:


> I interpreted it as her being able to achieve a balance between light and dark. Which she kind of did?



How did you get that?
Seemed like a pretty one sided attraction to the dark side to me.

Hell, now it's pretty much stated to be one of the Palpatine bloodline hints given throughout the trilogy.
Which makes the darkside literally part of her being.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 14, 2020)

@Claudio Swiss 

You mean, by bringing up the fact that the Ones are one of Lucas' concepts for the Force? Care to try and explain why the Ones are so disliked as a concept (by people here, at least)?


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## NW (Jan 14, 2020)

I keep having these thoughts like "having genetic darkness because of your grandpappy is stupid", "being more naturally predisposed to an all encompassing energy field given off by living beings is stupid", "Luke's daddy being a special snowflake messiah rather than a broken man who found redemption is stupid", and so on. Then I came to realize that maybe Star Wars is just stupid in general to me so I should just let people enjoy what they wish. 

Rise of Jaywalker is still an abomination and easily my least favorite Star Wars media I've consumed though. 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> And thus we run into the biggest issue with the modern aspirant to careers in literature and production. Ultimately they're emotionally capable of understanding epics...Because the concept that morality and breeding just, just might be binary on some level is horrifying to them due to their inability to separate themselves and their lives from storytelling itself.
> 
> And why groups like the Sad Puppies aren't just gaining traction but poised to purge science fiction of their ilk...Because fundamentally the average person rejects projection


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## Son Of Man (Jan 14, 2020)

Some of that colin ep 9 script sounds interesting


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## reiatsuflow (Jan 15, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> Some of that colin ep 9 script sounds interesting



Bulletpoint summary from reddit.

Kylo is the big bad guy and he killed rey's parents. 



> CRAWL:
> 
> The iron grip of the FIRST ORDER has spread to the farthest reaches of the galaxy. Only a few scattered planets remain unoccupied. Traitorous acts are punishable by death.
> 
> ...


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 15, 2020)

reiatsuflow said:


> Bulletpoint summary from reddit.
> 
> Kylo is the big bad guy and he killed rey's parents.


Well from what we see it's not as much of a dumpster fire as the 9 we got but it still looks pretty poor. If this is the script Colin had to make up after TLJ changed things too much for him like keeping Luke alive than I guess it makes sense for it to still be a mess since that is exactly what ROS was.


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## BlueDemon (Jan 15, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> How did you get that?
> Seemed like a pretty one sided attraction to the dark side to me.
> 
> Hell, now it's pretty much stated to be one of the Palpatine bloodline hints given throughout the trilogy.
> Which makes the darkside literally part of her being.


How is it a one-sided attraction when everything else she did in the movie was good?

This strict light/dark side mumbo jumbo has always irritated me in SW. "Oh yeah, dark side good, we can slaughter billions, yay". I mean, who even does that? 



NostalgiaFan said:


> She did nothing of the sort.


She's no "real" Jedi, no "real" Sith, has taken another color for her sword. 
But I think I'm just mixing up fan theories.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 15, 2020)

BlueDemon said:


> How is it a one-sided attraction when everything else she did in the movie was good?



You completely missed the point of that scene, then.
What she chooses to do, doesn't negate what her primal instincts are.



BlueDemon said:


> "Oh yeah, dark side good, we can slaughter billions, yay". I mean, who even does that?



I can't even understand what this sentence means . . .


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## Bluebeard (Jan 15, 2020)

Kylo Ren being irredeemable is infinitely more interesting than the lazy, redemption Vader repeat we got in RoS.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 15, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> You completely missed the point of that scene, then.
> What she chooses to do, doesn't negate what her primal instincts are.



She was still untrained in the Force at the time, trying to find out her place in things. After training, after finding out about her potential for darkness, and after finding out the truth about her family, _*she turned away from darkness*_, and chose to embrace the Light. 

She found balance within herself as a result of her choice, which overrides where she came from. Just like her parents, she rejected Palpatine's name and legacy and chose her own path.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BlueDemon (Jan 15, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> What she chooses to do, doesn't negate what her primal instincts are.


Of course it does. Otherwise we'd all still be savages, running around bashing people's heads in 


Catalyst75 said:


> She was still untrained in the Force at the time, trying to find out her place in things. After training, after finding out about her potential for darkness, and after finding out the truth about her family, _*she turned away from darkness*_, and chose to embrace the Light.
> 
> She found balance within herself as a result of her choice, which overrides where she came from. Just like her parents, she rejected Palpatine's name and legacy and chose her own path.


Well put!


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 15, 2020)

BlueDemon said:


> She's no "real" Jedi, no "real" Sith, has taken another color for her sword.
> But I think I'm just mixing up fan theories.


If all you have to your point is her having a different colored lightsaber than you have no point. Yellow has been a canon lightsaber color for the Jedi since as far back as The Clone Wars tv show making it so.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 15, 2020)

We are down to a failed writer and fan theories to defend this travesty of a movie now


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 15, 2020)

BlueDemon said:


> This strict light/dark side mumbo jumbo has always irritated me in SW. "Oh yeah, dark side good, we can slaughter billions, yay". I mean, who even does that?



It is mumbo jumbo, but it is also a common trope with many magic systems to have "dark magic", or powers with a dark/evil source, be corrupting influences, or a virulent force that inevitably turns you evil, willing or unwilling. On the other hand you have already evil people who fully embrace what that kind of dark magic allows them to do with glee, like Palpatine.

But, yes, we do have the case of Anakin going from "what have I done?!", after helping Palpatine kill Mace Windu, to killing young children and Force-choking his wife not long after falling to the Dark Side.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 15, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> You completely missed the point of that scene, then.
> What she chooses to do, doesn't negate what her primal instincts are.
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, but alternatively, doesn't that vindicate the development of Luke in TLJ? After all, his primal instincts were to nearly viciously kill Vader. He only stops when Palpatine encourages him and he realizes how close he was to falling. He chose to go that path. This is why I don't get the whole "Rey should've turned evil". Yeah, she obviously had the capacity for it, but she chose to reject that path at the end of "The Last Jedi" -- whereas Ben seemingly became more unhinged, even after rescuing her from Snoke. 

Which leads me to --



Bluebeard said:


> Kylo Ren being irredeemable is infinitely more interesting than the lazy, redemption Vader repeat we got in RoS.



I agree. Even Adam Driver said that he was told Kylo Ren would not have the same arc as Vader.


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## Xebec (Jan 15, 2020)

Parts of it sound interesting others sound even worse than TROS


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## MartialHorror (Jan 15, 2020)

I like the idea of Luke's force ghost haunting Kylo Ren. For some reason, it reminds me of that robot chicken short where Vader encounters Jar Jar Binks, kills him... and is promptly haunted by Jar Jar's force ghost. 

But I actually think it could've been effective... albeit it would've been more effective if Kylo Ren actually killed Luke.


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## Xebec (Jan 15, 2020)

Luke haunting Kylo is like when he haunted Cade in Legacy


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## Turrin (Jan 15, 2020)

I still don’t think there was anything wrong with LTJ. I just don’t think Disney had courage due to listening to fans reactions to follow through with making bold choices like Rian, did. ROS fails because it’s cookie cutter (which I think is fine for TFA as the first movie but not ROS) and while it brings up interesting ideas like Rey = Palpatine it doesn’t develop them enough.

Imo, what needed to happen was, Rey should have become the main villain. Just have Rey turn out to be Palpatine grand daughter and unable to resist the pull of the dark side; and end up turning to the dark-side and Kylo then having a vision of the great evil Rey will bring about and have Kylo have a moment where he nearly kills Rey because he sees this, and then he finally understands Luke, and eventually converts to the Light-Side. Then have him be the hero and goto fight Rey at the end of the film end up sacrificing a hand or getting really messed up in a fight with Rey to prevent Rey from becoming a Sith and reviving Palapatines empire; fulfilling the same role as his Grandfather Anakin.

Then Anakin was still the chosen one to end the sith; and his legacy the Skywalker are there to prevent the sith from rising again; and Ben now reformed can restart the Jedi. And then Disney would automatically have a ton of easy films they could do after that about Future Jedi and Skywalker preventing other force sensations from turning to the dark side and becoming Sith or revving the Sith


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 15, 2020)

Everything was wrong with TLJ. From the retarded plot to the awful characters to the terrible fight scenes to the stupid story changes it did everything it could to destroy what little hope this trilogy had to function right. Nothing could have salvaged ROS.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 15, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I agree. Even Adam Driver said that he was told Kylo Ren would not have the same arc as Vader.



Except it was a much different arc than we got from Vader. It'd only be "the same" if you judged solely based on the fact that he found redemption by the end of it.



Turrin said:


> I still don’t think there was anything wrong with LTJ. I just don’t think Disney had courage due to listening to fans reactions to follow through with making bold choices like Rian, did. ROS fails because it’s cookie cutter (which I think is fine for TFA as the first movie but not ROS) and while it brings up interesting ideas like Rey = Palpatine it doesn’t develop them enough.
> 
> Imo, what needed to happen was, Rey should have become the main villain. Just have Rey turn out to be Palpatine grand daughter and unable to resist the pull of the dark side; and end up turning to the dark-side and Kylo then having a vision of the great evil Rey will bring about and have Kylo have a moment where he nearly kills Rey because he sees this, and then he finally understands Luke, and eventually converts to the Light-Side. Then have him be the hero and goto fight Rey at the end of the film end up sacrificing a hand or getting really messed up in a fight with Rey to prevent Rey from becoming a Sith and reviving Palapatines empire; fulfilling the same role as his Grandfather Anakin.
> 
> Then Anakin was still the chosen one to end the sith; and his legacy the Skywalker are there to prevent the sith from rising again; and Ben now reformed can restart the Jedi. And then Disney would automatically have a ton of easy films they could do after that about Future Jedi and Skywalker preventing other force sensations from turning to the dark side and becoming Sith or revving the Sith



In other words, your idea of "what needed to happen" was to have happen to Rey what Weiss and Benioff did to Daenerys during Game of Thrones Season 8: Because she has Force powers, because her grandfather was Palpatine, the only thing that "makes sense" to *you* is for her to go cray-cray with Dark Side power, just so Ben can kill her and re-establish the "special Skywalker bloodline".

No words can describe how stupid that is, and a story like that would have completely destroyed the Sequel Trilogy as a whole.


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## Mider T (Jan 15, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 15, 2020)

Slow to the finish eh?


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## Turrin (Jan 15, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> Except it was a much different arc than we got from Vader. It'd only be "the same" if you judged solely based on the fact that he found redemption by the end of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem with Game of Thrones is not that Danny becomes Mad Queen (this is likely what GRRM also intended), it’s that her conversion to the Mad Queen is poorly done; and there is little pay off to her becoming the Mad Queen, with her confrontation with John being extremely lack luster and John not even becoming King afterwards.

—-
Obviously if done poorly Rey going to the Darkside could be equally as baffling as Danny or the original Mad Queen, Hayden himself from Revenge of the Sith. But there is a story that could have been told with Rey going to the dark-side organically because she simply could not resist its pull due to who she is as a Palpatine, and having this play out in a compelling way in the movie(s); and there is a pay off there with Kylo having to become Ben Solo/Skywalker again to defeat her and prevent the Sith from returning that could be much more satisfying then what we got imo


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 15, 2020)

Turrin said:


> But there is a story that could have been told with Rey going to the dark-side organically because she simply could not resist its pull due to who she is as a Palpatine, and having this play out in a compelling way in the movie(s); and there is a pay off there with Kylo having to become Ben Solo/Skywalker again to defeat her and prevent the Sith from returning that could be much more satisfying then what we got imo



And _*who *_would that pay-off "satisfy", exactly?

It pedals the message that Rey was "doomed" to be evil because of who her grandfather was, while justifying Ben's redemption and him killing her for similar reasons - because he's the grandson of the Chosen One. Fates determined by the circumstances of their ancestry, *not by their own choices. 
*
How could possibly think that would be a satisfying ending for anyone?


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## Son Of Man (Jan 15, 2020)

Rey uses a blue lightsaber boomerang in the colin script


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 16, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, but alternatively, doesn't that vindicate the development of Luke in TLJ? After all, his primal instincts were to nearly viciously kill Vader. He only stops when Palpatine encourages him and he realizes how close he was to falling.



He only tried to kill Vader after a long time of being goaded and even then it took Vader saying they will go after Leia for him to snap.
Not the same thing.


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> And _*who *_would that pay-off "satisfy", exactly?
> 
> It pedals the message that Rey was "doomed" to be evil because of who her grandfather was, while justifying Ben's redemption and him killing her for similar reasons - because he's the grandson of the Chosen One. Fates determined by the circumstances of their ancestry, *not by their own choices.
> *
> How could possibly think that would be a satisfying ending for anyone?


Star Wars has always been about Fate pushing the characters in one direction or another. Anakin was always pulled by Fate to become Vader. That’s not to say Anakin didn’t make choices that led to him becoming Vader but the pull was still there and he couldn’t resist the pull of the Darkside in the end. The same would be true of Rey, Fate / Lineage / etc... would pull her to to Darkside, but inevitably during the multiple acts of the film she would make choices that led her there as well. As I said it is a matter of how that is done.

Ben on the other hand is interesting because he is being pulled to the Light by Fate, lineage, etc... and Ben coming to terms with that and casting aside Kylo identity to stop Rey, is something that fits with the original trilogy, and is that rhyming poetry that Lucas talks about. You can even say it leans into Ben, being named after Obi Wan, too, who had to stop Vader on Mustafar in RoS, which Rhymes with the Rise of Skywalker.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 16, 2020)

High Republic trilogy when


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> He only tried to kill Vader after a long time of being goaded and even then it took Vader saying they will go after Leia for him to snap.
> Not the same thing.


It’s basically the same thing. Luke snaps on Vader when Vader becomes a threat to someone he cares about (Leia); but ultimately holds back the killing blow. I think the issue with Luke snapping on Ben is that he says he did so because he sensed the darkness in Ben, which implies he sensed Ben was a threat to everyone he cares about (his students & friends), and that’s why he snaps just like On Vader, but this was too ambiguous for most of the audience to pick up on. Rather Rian should have directly shown Luke having a vision of Ben killing his Students and Han Solo.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 16, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> He only tried to kill Vader after a long time of being goaded and even then it took Vader saying they will go after Leia for him to snap.
> Not the same thing.



That's not how Luke saw it. 

There's even this great moment where he stares at his robotic hand and looks at Vader's (severed) robotic hand, drawing parallels. Actually, it's funny now that I just watched the scene again. For all of the complaining people did over Luke throwing away the lightsaber in TLJ, he throws his away after refusing to kill Vader. Obviously it was the tone TLJ was going for with that scene that irritated people, but it makes "ROS" look a little bit sillier with how it tried to counter that scene.


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## BlueDemon (Jan 16, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> It is mumbo jumbo, but it is also a common trope with many magic systems to have "dark magic", or powers with a dark/evil source, be corrupting influences, or a virulent force that inevitably turns you evil, willing or unwilling. On the other hand you have already evil people who fully embrace what that kind of dark magic allows them to do with glee, like Palpatine.
> 
> But, yes, we do have the case of Anakin going from "what have I done?!", after helping Palpatine kill Mace Windu, to killing young children and Force-choking his wife not long after falling to the Dark Side.


Yeah. I guess that's why I never really became a fan of SW, because it's science _fantasy_. They still could have done a way better job with this trilogy though.


NostalgiaFan said:


> If all you have to your point is her having a different colored lightsaber than you have no point. Yellow has been a canon lightsaber color for the Jedi since as far back as The Clone Wars tv show making it so.


Sorry then, not that knowledgeable about these things. But my that was not my whole point.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 16, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> "_The story that George laid out for us_."
> 
> So I guess you were unaware that the concept of them came from George himself?



Which doesn't change my point at all -- that their character concept is something that a kid childishly makes up for fanfiction.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 16, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> That's not how Luke saw it.
> 
> There's even this great moment where he stares at his robotic hand and looks at Vader's (severed) robotic hand, drawing parallels. Actually, it's funny now that I just watched the scene again. For all of the complaining people did over Luke throwing away the lightsaber in TLJ, he throws his away after refusing to kill Vader. Obviously it was the tone TLJ was going for with that scene that irritated people, but it makes "ROS" look a little bit sillier with how it tried to counter that scene.



Luke saw he was being led to take the same path as Anakin and chose to brake the cycle.
Manipulated through his feelings to protect those close to him into sinning.
No one denies that part.

Ray on the other hand went to that dark side shithole head first on er own. Even after being warned against it.
All due to an inner need.

You seem to mistake the corruption parallel of the Skywalkers, with the Inborn evil of the Palpatine's.
One is more of the fallen angel trope, while the other is more in line with the Omen's antichrist trope.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 16, 2020)

>People still trying to claim Luke almost killing Ben is the same as him almost killing Vader 

Which is bullshit when the later was clearly him under far more pressure due to both Palpatine goading him and Vader threatening to kill him all the while his friends were in real danger making him even more anxious and fearful. And this was a younger less experienced Luke who still had the job of facing Vader to complete his journey as Yoda said so it makes even less sense for him to almost lose his shit at an older age with something less dangerous at the moment.


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> >People still trying to claim Luke almost killing Ben is the same as him almost killing Vader
> 
> Which is bullshit when the later was clearly him under far more pressure due to both Palpatine goading him and Vader threatening to kill him all the while his friends were in real danger making him even more anxious and fearful. And this was a younger less experienced Luke who still had the job of facing Vader to complete his journey as Yoda said so it makes even less sense for him to almost lose his shit at an older age with something less dangerous at the moment.


Luke bare minimum sensed Bens killing intent and the fact that Ben could kill his students. At this point Luke’s students would be like his own children, so it’s Ben threatening all his other Children. It makes total sense that he’d pull his lightsaber out to defend them in a moment of emotion the same way he did when he struck down Vader to defend Leia. Sorry but that shit is the exact same thing. Can you say Rian should have done a better job presenting it, sure, but it’s the same idea


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Luke bare minimum sensed Bens killing intent and the fact that Ben could kill his students. At this point Luke’s students would be like his own children, so it’s Ben threatening all his other Children. It makes total sense that he’d pull his lightsaber out to defend them in a moment of emotion the same way he did when he struck down Vader to defend Leia. Sorry but that shit is the exact same thing. Can you say Rian should have done a better job presenting it, sure, but it’s the same idea



- A child he helped raise having a magical version of an emotionally charged nightmare.

- A mass murderer and the right hand of a Satan expy, threatening his friends and family that were already in his grasp.
While hundreds of rebel allies were being slaughtered like sheep right outside the windows.

_*Exact same thing*_ according to Turrin here.

That's like claiming a child saying they will kill you after being trashed in an argument and an incel schoolshooter with hostages have the same immediate threat level.
But anyone with at least a single brain cell could tell, only one of those could be warranting the use of lethal force against them.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Luke bare minimum sensed Bens killing intent and the fact that Ben could kill his students.


Means nothing when there was no present danger in comparison to the Rebel Alliance gettign caught in an ambush that has them all trapped and on the verge of complete destruction, the Rebel forces on Endor trapped by Imperial forces which include all his friends who's lives are in immediate danger, and the Second Death Star being revealed as fully functional and capable of destroying all the Rebel fleet and Endor. 

Combine that with his own father purposely aggravating him and even getting close to killing him for not turning to the Dark Side, all the while Palpatine goads and mocks him which being that he is the most powerful Sith in history obviously means he is making it even more difficult for Luke to keep his cool and manipulating him to use his aggressive feelings more and more while everything around him goes to hell, and the fact that only when his father finally finds out about Leia being his sister and threatens to take her and make her fall to the Dark Side does Luke finally lose his shit and give in to his anger.


And all he does in the end is disarm him. Luke was under far more fucking pressure than anyone in the films and he came out on top all despite only being in his 20s. The fact he shows less self control decades later over something as small as Ben having bad dreams is character degradation and nothing else.



Turrin said:


> At this point Luke’s students would be like his own children, so it’s Ben threatening all his other Children.


At this point he knows Ben more than any of them, possibly more than his own father with how much was implied between Han and Ben, so no, Luke should be showing more reason to want to save him than think of killing him first of all. If he took away his lightsaber while he was asleep and kept him in stasis with the force and confronted him head on about why he has already turned it would have made far more sense. Instead he breaks under pressure when he was shown to be far stronger than that years ago which is just Rian being a dumbass and missing the point.


Turrin said:


> It makes total sense that he’d pull his lightsaber out to defend them


He was not defending anyone dude, he drew out his lightsaber with the intention of killing him which breaks away from Luke's character. If Ben had actually done what he dreamed of and Luke found him standing over the corpses of his students it would have made sense, but just having visions of it however is a pathetic excuses to make the guy who resisted both Vader and the Emperor himself manipulating him to turn to the Dark Side just forget that and first try to kill his own nephew.


Turrin said:


> in a moment of emotion the same way he did when he struck down Vader to defend Leia.


Wrong, it was nowhere near as bad as the situation with that as I already detailed. Luke by this time should be far more disciplined to handle such a situation.


Turrin said:


> Sorry but that shit is the exact same thing.


Sorry, but you don't know shit.


Turrin said:


> Can you say Rian should have done a better job presenting it, sure, but it’s the same idea


Wrong, it's a regression as Luke shows far less self control than he did on the Second Death Star where shit was far worse all around and he was much younger to have to handle the problems. All you have are the typical apologists arguments that ignore context and make up excuses to hand wave Luke acting out of character and ignore his development across the OT.


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> - A child he helped raise having a magical version of an emotionally charged nightmare.
> 
> - A mass murderer and the right hand of a Satan expy, threatening his friends and family that were already in his grasp.
> While hundreds of rebel allies were being slaughtered like sheep right outside the windows.
> ...


Vader was endangering his friends, before he lost it. He only lost it when Vader said he was going to go after his Sister specifically, something which had not happened yet. So both events had not happened yet.

You can say Vader going after Leia is a more believable threat then Ben, but when Jedi sense the future of a threat that is very real to them; that was the crux of Anakin entire fall to the dark side. So even though it had not happened yet the threat was very real to Luke, and it makes sense that he reacted the same way (actually more reserved) that he did when Vader threatened Leia.


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Means nothing when there was no present danger in comparison to the Rebel Alliance gettign caught in an ambush that has them all trapped and on the verge of complete destruction, the Rebel forces on Endor trapped by Imperial forces which include all his friends who's lives are in immediate danger, and the Second Death Star being revealed as fully functional and capable of destroying all the Rebel fleet and Endor.
> 
> Combine that with his own father purposely aggravating him and even getting close to killing him for not turning to the Dark Side, all the while Palpatine goads and mocks him which being that he is the most powerful Sith in history obviously means he is making it even more difficult for Luke to keep his cool and manipulating him to use his aggressive feelings more and more while everything around him goes to hell, and the fact that only when his father finally finds out about Leia being his sister and threatens to take her and make her fall to the Dark Side does Luke finally lose his shit and give in to his anger.
> 
> ...


1- See my response above

2- We don’t know Luke knew Ben more then his students, as we don’t know that back story there, but even still to draw his lightsaber to save many that he cared of potentially sacrificing one he did (Ben) falls in line with how he acted against Vader

3. He was defending them by killing Ben and preventing him from becoming the threat that he sensed he would become. It’s the same tragedy of his father trying to prevent Padmae’s death and bring it to pass due to sensing the future

4. Far less control lol; all he did was draw his lightsaber on Ben; he fully hulked out on Vader cutting his hand off and nearly killing him before stopping at the last second. More control against Vader lol da fuck movie you watching my man


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Vader was endangering his friends, before he lost it. He only lost it when Vader said he was going to go after his Sister specifically, something which had not happened yet. So both events had not happened yet.



That's not how emotions work.
It was _*ALL *_of those reasons compounding on each other with his sister being the one that finally made him reach his tipping point.

You seem to see Luke as some kind of robot or NPC going "your taunt has failed" until Vader tried to use the sister taunt option. But I suppose, if you acknowledged just how much it took to get Luke all riled up, you would see just how crazy your interpretation is.

Only by reducing a complex emotional entanglement to practically binary level can you even begin to try and equate these two scenarios.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- See my response above


See mine instead.


Turrin said:


> 2- We don’t know Luke knew Ben more then his students


And you have zero proof he knew his students more than Ben.


Turrin said:


> but even still to draw his lightsaber to save many that he cared of potentially sacrificing one he did (Ben)


Which is completely out of character for Luke to do to someone that was a family member to him all because of a bad dream.


Turrin said:


> falls in line with how he acted against Vader


Wrong, as I already explained.


Turrin said:


> 3. He was defending them by killing Ben


Again completely out of character for Luke to do to someone that is family to him.


Turrin said:


> and preventing him from becoming the threat that he sensed he would become.


That shit did not require Luke to kill him what so ever. Like I already said simply remove his lightsaber and put him in stasis would have fit his reaction far better than immediately drawing his lightsaber out with the intention of killing him. 


Turrin said:


> It’s the same tragedy of his father trying to prevent Padmae’s death and bring it to pass due to sensing the future


>acting as if Luke and Anakin are the same character
>acting as if Luke wanting to kill his nephew is in any wary comparable to Anakin wanting to save the woman he loved



Oh my god you have no damn clue what you are talking about. Not only is the situation nothing alike but Luke's whole character revolved instead around people having good in them even if they were someone as evil as Vader. His flaw should have been that since Ben only had a bad dream there was still good in him and he could have just gone to talk and thanks to his naivety Ben catches him by surprise and knocks him out while killing his students. Fuck Luke's version of the backstory is the only one that actually makes sense with his character but of course Rian in his "subvert your expectations" nonsense had to pull shit out of his ass to make Luke look bad.


Turrin said:


> 4. Far less control lol; all he did was draw his lightsaber on Ben


With the intention of killing him , which caused Ben to attack him and end the his order, all over a fucking bad dream. Yes that is far less self control Sherlock. How the hell is that showing discipline?



Turrin said:


> he fully hulked out on Vader cutting his hand off and nearly killing him before stopping at the last second.


There you go again not only ignoring context but also pulling shit out of your ass. He did not "stop at the last second", he stopped right after cutting off Vader's hand which shows even in his rage that he never intended to kill his father. That's why the Emperor kept telling him to do it because he was still not willing to, in spite of the situation being far worse than with Ben.


Turrin said:


> More control against Vader lol da fuck movie you watching my man


Explain to me how the battle of Endor, Vader trying to kill him, the Emperor pushing him, all somehow had no bearing on the situation than Eisenstein? More and more you sound like you never even watched the full movie but just looked at the fight scene and nothing else.


Turrin said:


> I’m not apologizing for shit, you guys should be apologizing


I don't apologize for being right.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Star Wars has always been about Fate pushing the characters in one direction or another. Anakin was always pulled by Fate to become Vader. That’s not to say Anakin didn’t make choices that led to him becoming Vader but the pull was still there and he couldn’t resist the pull of the Darkside in the end. The same would be true of Rey, Fate / Lineage / etc... would pull her to to Darkside, but inevitably during the multiple acts of the film she would make choices that led her there as well. As I said it is a matter of how that is done.
> 
> Ben on the other hand is interesting because he is being pulled to the Light by Fate, lineage, etc... and Ben coming to terms with that and casting aside Kylo identity to stop Rey, is something that fits with the original trilogy, and is that rhyming poetry that Lucas talks about. You can even say it leans into Ben, being named after Obi Wan, too, who had to stop Vader on Mustafar in RoS, which Rhymes with the Rise of Skywalker.



Crafting a story like that would only work if you built that story across a trilogy of its own, like what happened with Anakin.

What happened with Anakin does come off rather sudden in "Revenge of the Sith", but taken with "Attack of the Clones" and his slaughter of the Tusken village (and numerous events in _The Clone Wars_), Anakin's fall to the Dark Side comes off as less a matter of "fate" pushing him that direction and more a gradual build-up of emotions, the fear of losing Padme, and his growing dissatisfaction with the Jedi Order that eventually exploded and resulted in him making a decision there was no going back from. Furthermore, Palpatine had also taken the time to cultivate a bond with Anakin, and then manipulated him through his fear of losing Padme and his growing dissatisfaction with the Jedi to eventually make him fall to the Dark Side. 

Meanwhile, in _Return of the Jedi, _Palpatine tried to coax Luke to the Dark Side, but Luke rejected him in the end, and Vader in turn returned to the Light and destroyed Palpatine because he didn't want the Emperor to kill his son. The same thing that Palpatine manipulated to turn Anakin, his love for his family, became Vader's salvation and Palpatine's end. 

I agree with the Star Wars films rhyming and being poetic (I personally like the idea that Lucas used Ring composition to link the Prequel and Original Trilogies together), but I don't see how what you're suggesting would fit neatly into a Ring composition. 

In the case of _Rise of Skywalker, _I believe that ring is completed _because _we have Palpatine and the Sith once again rejected, this time by his own family and grand-daughter, _despite _Palpatine insisting that it was Rey's destiny to become the Sith Empress _because _she was his grand-daughter.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The irony of saying Star Wars is about Fate pushing characters in one direction is how often those who think a character's destiny is one thing are proven wrong i.e _all of them. _A key part of Palpatine's manipulations across all three trilogies is how often he says someone should "fulfill their destiny" by falling to the Dark Side. He said so when he convinced Anakin to embrace the Dark Side in _Revenge of the Sith; _he told Luke it was his destiny to take Vader's place by his side in _Return of the Jedi. _He manipulated Ben Solo all his life, saying his destiny was to follow in Vader's foot-steps, and he tried to convince Rey to become the new Sith Empress because it was her "destiny" as his grand-daughter.

Anakin fell to the Dark Side in _Revenge_, but Luke rejected Palpatine, and in turn Vader returned to the Light and destroyed Palpatine in _Return. _Ben Solo was able to break free from Palpatine's manipulations due to his bond with Rey, and Rey herself rejected Palpatine and his legacy.

Now, taking the above into account: What do you believe it would say if _The Rise of Skywalker_ had Palpatine declare it was Rey's destiny to be the new Sith Empress because she was his grand-daughter, _*and be proven right on that point?*_


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> That's not how emotions work.
> It was _*ALL *_of those reasons compounding on each other with his sister being the one that finally made him reach his tipping point.
> 
> You seem to see Luke as some kind of robot or NPC going "your taunt has failed" until Vader tried to use the sister taunt option. But I suppose, if you acknowledged just how much it took to get Luke all riled up, you would see just how crazy your interpretation is.
> ...


I just don’t think you understand Star Wars. The reason why Luke turned on Vader in that moment is because Vader was threatening his Sister someone he cared deeply for. We are shown that the Skywalker create deep bonds with those that they care for and this is their downfalls; and the way the Darkside can creep in. Luke having the same downfall as his father, fits thematically with the story


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> See mine instead.
> 
> And you have zero proof he knew his students more than Ben.
> 
> ...


1. My response to him apply to this point 

2. And this is why I said Rian did a bad job of illustrating this. But we can guess that Luke got students when they are Young, considering the Jedi tradition of raising Jedi from Younglings.

3. Luke senses the good in Vader and still nearly killed him; it’s not my problem that you are ignoring Luke’s short comings 

4. Drawing a lightsaber with killing intent is not less control then then actually wielding with killing intent to the point of cutting his fathers arm off. Your literally being dishonest by asserting the opposite 

5. Your wrong though period


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. My response to him apply to this point


No they don't, as I already explained.


Turrin said:


> 2. And this is why I said Rian did a bad job of illustrating this. But we can guess that Luke got students when they are Young, considering the Jedi tradition of raising Jedi from Younglings.


Still no excuses. Ben could have been trained by him just as long and the fact he was an actual family member made him clearly more of a priority and closer to Luke than the students he had.


Turrin said:


> 3. Luke senses the good in Vader and still nearly killed him


Again ignoring context like the whole fucking battle of Endor, being in a life or death struggle with his dad, and having the Emperor pushing him on with his words and the Dark Side itself to get him to do it, and he only cuts his arm off.


Turrin said:


> it’s not my problem that you are ignoring Luke’s short comings


No it's your problem that you are ignoring the intense circumstances placed on Luke that do not apply to the one with Ben. Luke's short coming has never been to kill first and talk later, his flaw could have easily been his naivety in seeing the good in people that would lead to him taking off his guard and his downfall. We literally see that shit in the fight with Vader where he turns of his lightsaber and his father directly attacks him while his guard is down.


Turrin said:


> 4. Drawing a lightsaber with killing intent is not less control then then actually wielding with killing intent to the point of cutting his fathers arm off.


Wrong. Again, You ignore the context to push your bullshit. Luke was far older and therefore should have had far more discipline and if it took the Emperor, his friends lives being in direct danger, and having his own father trying to murder him to get him to get him to only cut Vader's arm off than he should have handled a much smaller situation like his nephew having bad dreams in a far better way than "oh my god he has bad dreams better pull out my saber on this defenseless young boy who is a family member".

I mean this situation is no different than if someone pulls a gun on their nephew in their own house because they heard some bad rumors with no evidence to them. It looks just as psychopathic in TLJ as it does in real life.


Turrin said:


> Your literally being dishonest by asserting the opposite


Hello pot, this is kettle.


Turrin said:


> 5. Your wrong though period


Not an argument.


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> Crafting a story like that would only work if you built that story across a trilogy of its own, like what happened with Anakin.
> 
> What happened with Anakin does come off rather sudden in "Revenge of the Sith", but taken with "Attack of the Clones" and his slaughter of the Tusken village (and numerous events in _The Clone Wars_), Anakin's fall to the Dark Side comes off as less a matter of "fate" pushing him that direction and more a gradual build-up of emotions, the fear of losing Padme, and his growing dissatisfaction with the Jedi Order that eventually exploded and resulted in him making a decision there was no going back from. Furthermore, Palpatine had also taken the time to cultivate a bond with Anakin, and then manipulated him through his fear of losing Padme and his growing dissatisfaction with the Jedi to eventually make him fall to the Dark Side.
> 
> ...


1. I’m not saying you could have done this in one Movie; I’m saying if the Sequel Trilogy really wanted to make the story Rey Palpatine that’s how they could have done it. Would that require a unified vision across the films that Disney clear did not hav; Yes. Which would also mean more foreshadowing of Rey fall and lineage in TFA and TLJ, in-fact as much as TLJ is my favorite film of Disney Star Wars, I think most of that movie would have need to be reimagined to fit this end goal.

2. Palpatine tries to manipulate destiny but fails, because destiny / fate are unavoidable. Palpatine looked at the prophecy of the chosen one and thought, fuck fate, I’m going to turn him to the dark-side and tried to twist the prophecy to his own end, but at the end of the day he was wrong and Anakin threw his ass into the Death Star core still fulfilling his fate. Anakin tried to deny his fate too and save the girl he loved, but in the end his actions only brought him too that Fate. What we see with the Sith time and time again is they try to deny Fate or twist, but in doing so they bring about Fate regardless and their own destruction. Those in balance with the force like Yoda accept their fate and move towards it. This is the conflict of the Jedi and the Sith.

If Rey’s fate was to turn to the dark side due to her grand father, a compelling story would be her trying to turn away form it and be good, but in doing so fall to the dark-side, IE in her desperation to stop Kylo Ren, she falls to the dark side to do it. RoS toys with this idea but doesn’t have the courage to take it all the way.

And Ben on the other end tries to avoid his Fate as Vader grandson of turning to the light, but in the end he can’t.


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> No they don't, as I already explained.
> 
> Still no excuses. Ben could have been trained by him just as long and the fact he was an actual family member made him clearly more of a priority and closer to Luke than the students he had.
> 
> ...





NostalgiaFan said:


> No they don't, as I already explained.
> 
> Still no excuses. Ben could have been trained by him just as long and the fact he was an actual family member made him clearly more of a priority and closer to Luke than the students he had.
> 
> ...


This isn’t worth my time, as you clearly don’t understand basic concepts like sensing through the Force comparing it to bad rumors; or even fundamentally understand the tragic flaw of the Skywalkers and their emotions getting the better of them when it comes to those they love


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> This isn’t worth my time


Not worth mine either but at least I got time to waste.


Turrin said:


> as you clearly don’t understand basic concepts like sensing through the Force comparing it to bad rumors


Ironic coming from the dolt who cannot understand how the thousands of lives dying at Endor would help influence the Dark Side and therefore help the Emperor to further persuade Luke to give in to his anger.


Turrin said:


> or even fundamentally understand the tragic flaw of the Skywalkers and their emotions getting the better of them when it comes to those they love


Again you are the one how fails at understanding. Anakin is the only one of the Skywalkers Lucas made to suffer such a tragic flaw and that all had to do with being born a slave, the failure of the Jedi Teachings at the time, and most importantly Sidious manipulating him all throughout his life into being a man who cannot let go of his fear for others dying.

Luke grew up as a simple farm boy with his loving uncle and aunt who's only big flaw were keeping him confined to his home for his own safety and occasionally being helped by Ben all of which made him turn out alright as a person who would do everything he could to save people. That's why when he went through a trial as bad if not worse than Anakin's he overcame it and surpassed his dad through his own personal struggles and training from others. All Rian did was shove this all aside so he could make Luke act like a dumbass and abandon all he had learned.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jan 16, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Not worth mine either but at least I got time to waste.
> 
> Ironic coming from the dolt who cannot understand how the thousands of lives dying at Endor would help influence the Dark Side and therefore help the Emperor to further persuade Luke to give in to his anger.
> 
> ...


Again Luke didn’t rage out in Vader because of what was happening on Endor he only did that when, Vader threatened his sister; someone he cared about. What he sensed from Ben was a threat to those he cared about his foster sons/daughters that he took on as Younglings and trained in the way of the force. If you can’t understand that these are the same things; if you can’t understand Luke raging on Vader is the same tragic flaw as Anakin going to the dark to save Padmae; you have misunderstood the series.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 16, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Luke saw he was being led to take the same path as Anakin and chose to brake the cycle.
> Manipulated through his feelings to protect those close to him into sinning.
> No one denies that part.
> 
> ...



Obviously we can debate to the letter, but the OT made it very clear that Luke was vulnerable to the dark side. This was even before he met the Emperor based on that vision he has. The whole point of that arc is that in the end, he resists it. Rey was also vulnerable, maybe even moreso, but she ended up resisting it in "TLJ". Now if TLJ ended up with Rey filled Kylo Ren's role in that she decides 'screw the Jedi and the Sith, let's do our own thing', it would've worked. But it didn't, so if RoS chose to go that path, it would've been too forced. Once again look at "Game of Thrones". Yeah, you can technically see where they could justify a heel turn (with Dany), but without a lot of time to build it up, it feels forced and unsatisfying.

The inherent anti-Christ trope doesn't fit either because Ray showed no sign of turning evil in "The Force Awakens", where she seems pretty altruistic. They didn't tease any dark side turn or anything. Also, I think people would be pretty uncomfortable with the 'born evil' message in a Star Wars movie. Hey kids, whether you turn out good or bad ultimately... depends on your parents...


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## Son Of Man (Jan 16, 2020)

Yall see the leaked concept art? It has that one old leak about there being a oracle (some parasyte leeching life out of a baby head thing in a swamp)
I wonder how much more will be leaked. People in the "know" tried to discredit the report that there were multiple endings shot but I think in time we'll see that there was a lot of footage shot and disgarded due to people in test screenings not liking what they saw.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 16, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> Yall see the leaked concept art? It has that one old leak about there being a oracle (some parasyte leeching life out of a baby head thing in a swamp)
> I wonder how much more will be leaked. People in the "know" tried to discredit the report that there were multiple endings shot but I think in time we'll see that there was a lot of footage shot and disgarded due to people in test screenings not liking what they saw.



You can tell from the movie itself that much of the climax was reshot. I think the only dispute is whether or not there were test screenings... and to make matters even messier, what counts as a test screening varies from person to person. Most people look at it as when they show it to actual audiences. Other times it could just be with people who worked on the film.

This has been an interesting time though, as I do find a lot of the alleged leaks to be interesting, whether they seem better or worse than the finished product. Certain things like the Sith Troopers sounds either awesome or stupid, depending on my mood. I guess much of it would've come down to execution.


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## Atem (Jan 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Luke bare minimum sensed Bens killing intent and the fact that Ben could kill his students. At this point Luke’s students would be like his own children, so it’s Ben threatening all his other Children. It makes total sense that he’d pull his lightsaber out to defend them in a moment of emotion the same way he did when he struck down Vader to defend Leia. Sorry but that shit is the exact same thing. Can you say Rian should have done a better job presenting it, sure, but it’s the same idea



No.

This is the same Luke Skywalker who was willing to save and redeem his father.

Who:

1. Systematically hunted down force users across the galaxy.

2. Murdered men, women, and _children_.

3. Assisted in the destruction of an entire planet. The same planet his daughter called home.

4. Cut off his son's hand.

5. Threaten to corrupt his daughter, and turn her to the dark side of the force.

6. After he had previously kidnapped her, and intended to use her as leverage.

Luke Skywalker was a forgiving man. 

He wasn't an embittered old coot who was disillusioned with life, and who disrespected the Jedi Order.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Jan 16, 2020)

To be fair Luke in Return of Jedi was on his early 20s while in The Last Jedi he was on his 60s, everybody is hopeful and naive at that young age, not so much when you're old and have seen some shit.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 16, 2020)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> To be fair Luke in Return of Jedi was on his early 20s while in The Last Jedi he was on his 60s, everybody is hopeful and naive at that young age, not so much when you're old and have seen some shit.


Except there was nothing to explain why he suddenly became so unforgiving as to draw out his light saber against his sleeping nephew just over a bad dream. And the fact he did redeem his father would have only strengthen his beliefs as he got older instead of them getting lower since that only happens when you are proven wrong.

 Luke would have only made sense to lose that hope if he actually thought first of just talking to Ben and convincing him to turn away only to be attacked and therefore fail to bring the good in Ben out. The way he did it in TLJ was just OOC and made no sense for an older wiser Luke who proved you could convince people to turn away.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. I’m not saying you could have done this in one Movie; I’m saying if the Sequel Trilogy really wanted to make the story Rey Palpatine that’s how they could have done it. Would that require a unified vision across the films that Disney clear did not hav; Yes. Which would also mean more foreshadowing of Rey fall and lineage in TFA and TLJ, in-fact as much as TLJ is my favorite film of Disney Star Wars, I think most of that movie would have need to be reimagined to fit this end goal.



The Original Trilogy did have Lucas at the helm the whole time, but the vision also kept changing during the process of the trilogy being made. Vader wasn't planned to be Anakin during the production of "A New Hope"; nor was Leia ever intended to be Luke's secret twin until Lucas had to tie up loose ends in "Return of the Jedi". 

But, yes, I agree that it would require setting it up from the first film going forward. You could definitely create a story like the one you're envisioning, but the question would be how well the end result would be received. For my part, as far as Rey being a Palpatine goes, I believe that having her reject Palpatine's legacy was the best way to end off her character arc.



Turrin said:


> 2. Palpatine tries to manipulate destiny but fails, because destiny / fate are unavoidable. Palpatine looked at the prophecy of the chosen one and thought, fuck fate, I’m going to turn him to the dark-side and tried to twist the prophecy to his own end, but at the end of the day he was wrong and Anakin threw his ass into the Death Star core still fulfilling his fate. Anakin tried to deny his fate too and save the girl he loved, but in the end his actions only brought him too that Fate. What we see with the Sith time and time again is they try to deny Fate or twist, but in doing so they bring about Fate regardless and their own destruction. Those in balance with the force like Yoda accept their fate and move towards it. This is the conflict of the Jedi and the Sith.



But at the same time, you have people voice the perspective that the future is always in motion (as voiced by Yoda himself), that Force visions show possibilities as much as they may show events that _will happen. _As you pointed out, sometimes Force visions are dependent on how the one who sees them reacts to them. It is how you choose to act in relation to visions of the future that can determine how they will pan out, since they so often omit context behind what will happen. 

Even the The Mortis Gods believed that the future can change.

I know how tempting it is to use the example of the Chosen One prophecy to dictate that all things are pre-determined, but the Chosen One prophecy exist to begin with if the Sith hadn't caused such a great imbalance.



Turrin said:


> If Rey’s fate was to turn to the dark side due to her grand father, a compelling story would be her trying to turn away form it and be good, but in doing so fall to the dark-side, IE in her desperation to stop Kylo Ren, she falls to the dark side to do it. RoS toys with this idea but doesn’t have the courage to take it all the way.
> 
> And Ben on the other end tries to avoid his Fate as Vader grandson of turning to the light, but in the end he can’t.



Which is one source for my skepticism about the story idea that "Rey is destined to fall to the Dark Side because of her bloodline". Like the life that creates it, the Force as an energy field seeks balance between the two sides of itself.

Just as Anakin was born because the Force sought to correct the imbalance caused by the Sith, I'd argue that Rey was born with such Force potential to correct the imbalance the newly resurrected Palpatine was causing through his manipulations of Ben Solo. Not only as a powerful Force wielder, but as a dyad with the person Palpatine sought to corrupt, with the cherry on top being that the Force's response to the imbalance caused by Palpatine _was his own grandchild_. 

It's not that Rise of Skywalker toyed with the idea but couldn't take it all the way; it's that the _Rise of Skywalker _rejected that idea with Rey's choice to reject Palpatine and his legacy, to choose who she is and find balance within herself. 

The same goes for Ben. After years of his life manipulated by Palpatine from afar, after years of conflict and imbalance within himself, he _chose _to return to the Light, and in so doing found balance.

But even setting aside all of that, the main problem of a story idea like yours still remains. It argues that your bloodline, where you come from, determines who and what you are destined to be, which is the exact opposite of the story we saw play out: a story about balance, and choosing who you want to be.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> The Original Trilogy did have Lucas at the helm the whole time, but the vision also kept changing during the process of the trilogy being made. Vader wasn't planned to be Anakin during the production of "A New Hope"; nor was Leia ever intended to be Luke's secret twin until Lucas had to tie up loose ends in "Return of the Jedi".
> 
> But, yes, I agree that it would require setting it up from the first film going forward. You could definitely create a story like the one you're envisioning, but the question would be how well the end result would be received. For my part, as far as Rey being a Palpatine goes, I believe that having her reject Palpatine's legacy was the best way to end off her character arc.
> 
> ...


1. Rey turning out to be a Palpatine and Rejecting his legacy is the issue I have with RoS, it’s predictable copy of the original series, with Rey just being a copy of Luke and Kylo a rehash of Vader. There is nothing new there and it adds nothing to canon; it actually subtracts from it because it undermines what Luke / Vader accomplished by having Palapatine and the Sith still alive in RoS. At least with Rey going to the Dark-Side and Kylo going to the light we get a new dynamic and we get a new accomplishment, of the The Skywalkers no stopping the return of the Sith. This adds to the canon and adds to the story imo.

Now would I have necessary made Rey a Palpatine at all, IDK.

2. It isn’t just the chosen one prophecy; we also have Luke fulfilling his destiny of redeeming Vader, Anakin sensing the fate of Padmae, and Luke sensing the fate of Ben Solo and that coming true; as much as Yoda says the future can change, it has never been shown to be the case In Star Wars Canon; even in Rebels both Kanan and Ezra sense their fate which is unavoidable; and the whole world between worlds was about how fate can’t be changed; and so on. And Yoda has been wrong in the past he is not right about everything, in-fact it’s shown that Yoda along with the other Jedi fell partially due to their arrogance and I would say Yoda belief that Fate can be changed was arrogance based on everything the canon has shown so far.

3. I think the fact that bloodline doesn’t always determine the outcome was already shown to be the case with Luke, we didn’t need to beat that horse again. Rey falling wouldn’t be due to her bloodline but due to fate; as I said I would set it as Rey having a vision that she becomes like Palapatine; and yes part of that is due to her bloodline, but the main issue is that this is her Fate and her fighting against it turns her to a Sith. This is a story we haven’t seen in the main canon.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 17, 2020)

Luke wasnt TLJs problem at all


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## Garcher (Jan 17, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Luke wasnt TLJs problem at all


he wasn't "the problem", but one of many


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. Rey turning out to be a Palpatine and Rejecting his legacy is the issue I have with RoS, it’s predictable copy of the original series, with Rey just being a copy of Luke and Kylo a rehash of Vader. There is nothing new there and it adds nothing to canon; it actually subtracts from it because it undermines what Luke / Vader accomplished by having Palapatine and the Sith still alive in RoS. At least with Rey going to the Dark-Side and Kylo going to the light we get a new dynamic and we get a new accomplishment, of the The Skywalkers no stopping the return of the Sith. This adds to the canon and adds to the story imo.



So to trim it down, your issue is that the main villain is _*not *_proven right about Rey's destiny being to become the new Sith Empress, because apparently someone else having their turn at destroying Palpatine "devalues" what Luke and Vader accomplished. 

Except it doesn't devalue what Luke and Vader did, because what they did _*still happened. *_Luke still redeemed Vader, and Vader still fulfilled his destiny by destroying Palpatine the first time around. It's not a "new dynamic" or a "new accomplishment" to have a story where *only *the Skywalker bloodline can destroy the Sith, and it would be a terrible message if Rey was "destined to fall to the Dark Side" solely because of who her family is. 



Turrin said:


> 3. I think the fact that bloodline doesn’t always determine the outcome was already shown to be the case with Luke, we didn’t need to beat that horse again. Rey falling wouldn’t be due to her bloodline but due to fate; as I said I would set it as Rey having a vision that she becomes like Palapatine; and yes part of that is due to her bloodline, but the main issue is that this is her Fate and her fighting against it turns her to a Sith. This is a story we haven’t seen in the main canon.



Nor is it one that we need to see, and wouldn't have been a good story to tell in the Sequel Trilogy. 

We got close enough when Anakin saw a vision of Padme's death and turned to the Dark Side to save her, only for his fear and actions to be what causes her death in the first place. It is also an old trope that's _even more predictable_ than what you're complaining about. Stories where people end up meeting their facts through the actions they take to avoid them are literally older than dirt.

The Force is about seeking balance, and the struggle for balance is is the central theme of the films. That's what we saw with Rey: she confronted her fears and found balance within herself, and rejected the legacy Palpatine tried to force upon her. 

And I am glad that is the story we saw.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> So to trim it down, your issue is that the main villain is _*not *_proven right about Rey's destiny being to become the new Sith Empress, because apparently someone else having their turn at destroying Palpatine "devalues" what Luke and Vader accomplished.
> 
> Except it doesn't devalue what Luke and Vader did, because what they did _*still happened. *_Luke still redeemed Vader, and Vader still fulfilled his destiny by destroying Palpatine the first time around. It's not a "new dynamic" or a "new accomplishment" to have a story where *only *the Skywalker bloodline can destroy the Sith, and it would be a terrible message if Rey was "destined to fall to the Dark Side" solely because of who her family is.
> 
> ...


1. The main villain wouldn’t be ‘right’ because Palpatine would not be in the version I’m suggesting. Rey would become the main villain, and she would be wrong, in that she would have gone to the dark-side in her desperation to defeat Kylo Ren. 

2. It does though; as they were suppose to bring balance to the force by destroying the Sith, but they failed to destroy Palpatine as he was still out their still amassing his power and he would have taken over the galaxy again a mere 30 years later... it defiantly undervalues what was accomplished. 

I don’t think it’s wrong to have a story where only the Chosen one could destroy the Sith. Doesn’t mean only the Skywalker could beat the Darkside, just that their legacy should be defeating the Sith. While other heroes can have a legacy beating other DarkSide users or threats. It’s just like how Joker is Batman’s main villain, but there plenty of other villains that DC heroes can beat. The Skywalker Saga is beating the Sith, period; if they wanted to do another movie about the Skywalkers it should have been about preventing the Sith from returning. 

If they wanted to do the Rey Saga it should have been about another threat then the Sith. 

3. I’m not saying it isn’t predictable; and it is an old story it’s mythic story telling which is what the Skywalker saga of Star Wars and George Lucas Star Wars is. That’s why it fits with that Saga, and as a companion peace of ending to the Skywalker Saga. 

You want to take a different story cool; it’s not in line with the originals though or the Skywalker Saga.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 17, 2020)

mimimimi


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. The main villain wouldn’t be ‘right’ because Palpatine would not be in the version I’m suggesting. Rey would become the main villain, and she would be wrong, in that she would have gone to the dark-side in her desperation to defeat Kylo Ren.



Yet you still mention Palpatine earlier, and have Rey being his granddaughter as a reson why she can't resist the pull to the Dark Side:



Turrin said:


> Imo, what needed to happen was, Rey should have become the main villain. Just have Rey turn out to be Palpatine grand daughter and unable to resist the pull of the dark side;



No matter how you spin it, that wouldn't be a satisfying answer for many people.



Turrin said:


> 2. It does though; as they were suppose to bring balance to the force by destroying the Sith, but they failed to destroy Palpatine as he was still out their still amassing his power and he would have taken over the galaxy again a mere 30 years later... it defiantly undervalues what was accomplished.
> 
> I don’t think it’s wrong to have a story where only the Chosen one could destroy the Sith. Doesn’t mean only the Skywalker could beat the Darkside, just that their legacy should be defeating the Sith.



And defeating the Sith _is _their legacy. Rey being the one to destroy Palpatine the second time around doesn't negate that. Luke and Leia guided and taught Rey as a Jedi, and they were also among those who lent their power to Rey to destroy Palpatine the second time around and restore balance again. The Sequel Trilogy doesn't negate what happened the first time around. 



Turrin said:


> 3. I’m not saying it isn’t predictable; and it is an old story it’s mythic story telling which is what the Skywalker saga of Star Wars and George Lucas Star Wars is. That’s why it fits with that Saga, and as a companion peace of ending to the Skywalker Saga.
> 
> You want to take a different story cool; it’s not in line with the originals though or the Skywalker Saga.



You mean, because it's not in line with what you think of the Originals and the Skywalker Saga?

Your idea can only fit if Rey falls to the Dark Side because "fate" and her bloodline say so, so Ben can kill her and reaffirm the Skywalker destiny. How can you not see what the problem with that story is? 

Star Wars and the Skywalker Saga are about _*balance*_, at their core. When you look at the story through that lens, everything makes perfect sense.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> Yet you still mention Palpatine earlier, and have Rey being his granddaughter as a reson why she can't resist the pull to the Dark Side:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. Being his granddaughter yes, but not being in the movies. And yes lineage will always play a role, but it’s not a deciding factor fate is

2. And I disagree because Palapatine survived; if they helped Rey prevent another Dark-Side user from becoming a Sith Lord; then I agree. But Palpatine being alive means Anakin and Luke never eliminated the Sith period. 

3. Yes and balance is achieved at the end; by Ben, as he goes to the light in response to Rey going to the Dark. Also for the record I do not necessary believe Ben has to kill Rey at the end of the Trilogy, merely defeating her as Obi Wan beat Anakin would be enough preventing her from ascending to Sith Lord status.


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## Xebec (Jan 17, 2020)




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## Mider T (Jan 17, 2020)

Balance was brought back by ending the Skywalker line as they were abberitions in the Force to begin with.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 17, 2020)

This entire Trilogy is an aberration of the force.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 17, 2020)

inb4 "hur dur muh 1 billion" which is not even going to make up for the amount of money wasted on a single Galaxy's edge amusement park.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 17, 2020)

Mider T said:


> You still mad about one of the most profitable movies of all time?


More like biggest franchise drops of all time 

In fact it's "profit" is only at a couple hundred million which is not only low as fuck for a blockbuster like this but lower than the amount of money Disney put into it to begin with so lol at being anywhere near "most profitable" at all.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 17, 2020)

Claiming this was a success when they had to break the law to inflate figures is a little silly


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## reiatsuflow (Jan 18, 2020)

It's actually possible with joker's rerelease that rise will make less than joker at the box office, and joker was never released in china


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## MartialHorror (Jan 18, 2020)

Studios will usually low ball the numbers for their budgets, while their rivals usually exaggerate. It usually does come out though over time, sort of like how TLJ was reported to cost $200,000,000, but in actuality cost a little over $260,000,000 (I think other studios were claiming it was closer to $300,000,000). According to wikipedia, it cost $275,000,000. Is that was Disney is claiming? It's not impossible, but if rumors of them working on reshoots so close to the release date are true, then I'd assume it would at least be $300,000,000.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 18, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. Being his granddaughter yes, but not being in the movies. And yes lineage will always play a role, but it’s not a deciding factor fate is



Fate, bloodlines, the difference between them don't matter when they've always reinforced each other. When people are savvy enough to recognize the kind of implications that kind of storyline holds, especially when it's used to "justify" making a hero become a villain.

It's been done before, and Rise of Skywalker was right not to go that route. What was it you said: "they didn't have the courage to go all the way"? Not doing things the way you think they "should have been done" doesn't mean they lacked "courage".



> 2. And I disagree because Palapatine survived; if they helped Rey prevent another Dark-Side user from becoming a Sith Lord; then I agree. But Palpatine being alive means Anakin and Luke never eliminated the Sith period.



The story in-universe says otherwise. Palpatine did die and balance was restored.  That still happened. You even hear Anakin tell Rey to bring balance _*like he once did *_in the final confrontation. 

What happened was Palpatine clawed his way out of death. In the end, however, he still died to someone who all past Jedi, including Anakin, shared their power with. In the end, balance was still restored in the Force and the Skywalker line played a crucial role in that.



> 3. Yes and balance is achieved at the end; by Ben, as he goes to the light in response to Rey going to the Dark. Also for the record I do not necessary believe Ben has to kill Rey at the end of the Trilogy, merely defeating her as Obi Wan beat Anakin would be enough preventing her from ascending to Sith Lord status.



It doesn't matter whether you think it's "something that hasn't been done", and it doesn't matter how much you try to justify it as "fate". It is still sending the message - your idea - that Rey shouldn't have been able to resist the Dark Side simply due to the circumstances of her bloodline.

That would not have been a good way to end out the Saga, no matter how hard you try to claim it would have been.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 18, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Sure they did.



I like how the SEC and the fucking FBI believe the whistleblowers  enough to begin an investigation but you're saying its bullshit in a desperate attempt to defend this shitty fanfiction


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 18, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I like how the SEC and the fucking FBI believe the whistleblowers  enough to begin an investigation but you're saying its bullshit in a desperate attempt to defend this shitty fanfiction


Remember that South Korea even opening this film so late in January instead of December has to do with Disney being caught and investigated over illegally forcing theaters to their whims.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 18, 2020)

Well, if it's any consolation to "Rise of Skywalker", it probably will overtake "Attack of the Clones" in domestic ticket sales. I don't know if I'd say it's a box office failure, but I do think it's an indisputable box office disappointment.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 18, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Remember that South Korea even opening this film so late in January instead of December has to do with Disney being caught and investigated over illegally forcing theaters to their whims.





:

And while people will spazz and go "but daz Frozen two"

Remember..the Disney proxies buying up ticket sales for Captain Marvel to artificially inflate the figures and empty theatres, their illegal forcing of Theatres to dump Alita in favor of CM and their fraud when it came to Star Wars sales figures. both at the box office and the theme parks.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 18, 2020)

lol and away we go with the 'tongue sticking out' phase of the debate.


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## Pilaf (Jan 19, 2020)




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## Pilaf (Jan 19, 2020)

Reminder - nobody likes a Consoomah


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## MartialHorror (Jan 19, 2020)

LOL! It looks like Jumanji overtook Star Wars again.


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## MShadows (Jan 20, 2020)

Overtaking a dumb movie like this shouldn’t be too hard of a challenge.

Jumanji is a lot better anyway.


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## Fang (Jan 20, 2020)

mr_shadow said:


>



You have to remember this guy was originally claiming TROS would easily "smash" TLJ's numbers.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 20, 2020)

Fang said:


> You have to remember this guy was originally claiming TROS would easily "smash" TLJ's numbers.


And now it is struggling just to meet Rouge One's numbers.


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## ~VK~ (Jan 21, 2020)

how much did rogue one make again? for a spin off it did pretty well it seems.


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## ~VK~ (Jan 21, 2020)

in retrospect of all the new star wars movies rogue one is probably the one i have the least problems with. and it wasn't even really that good of a movie.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 21, 2020)

~VK~ said:


> how much did rogue one make again? for a spin off it did pretty well it seems.


It was actually considered underwhelming from what I recall.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 21, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> It was actually considered underwhelming from what I recall.



People were still hoping for main trilogy numbers, since there was nothing to really accurately estimate the amount it could earn. Star Wars still had the insane fanboy hype behind it, so other franchise spin off movies weren't a good gauge.
With such expectations, it was only natural for it to be underwhelming.

So it is really funny in a way, that now they are reduced to hoping a main trilogy film would reach rougues numbers.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 21, 2020)

I don't know if I agree with that. Prior to the films release, Iger told investors that he wasn't expecting to do as well as "The Force Awakens", although he more-or-less said 'you never know' based on the hype the film seemingly had. If there was any disappointment, it was probably because it didn't break the bank in China, which it was obviously trying to cater towards. 

But back in 2016, joining the billion dollar club was still pretty rare. If you check the numbers, "Rogue One" is the 35th highest grossing film of all time. 15 of those films have been released AFTER "Rogue One", 7 of those came within the previous 2 years and all but four were released in the past decade -- assuming I counted correctly. "Rogue One"'s haul only seems kind of underwhelming in the context of 2020.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 21, 2020)

Does anyone remember when a lot of people were pushing for "The Force Awakens" to get a 'Best Picture' nomination at the Oscars? It's crazy how times have changed.


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## Pilaf (Jan 21, 2020)

Thank the Maker they decided to get rid of the mess that was the EU in favor of this


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## Kuromaku (Jan 21, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Does anyone remember when a lot of people were pushing for "The Force Awakens" to get a 'Best Picture' nomination at the Oscars? It's crazy how times have changed.



Was that for real? As if I needed more reasons to question the effectiveness of democratic institutions.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 21, 2020)

Kuromaku said:


> Was that for real? As if I needed more reasons to question the effectiveness of democratic institutions.



I think so, although I don't know if it was ever a real contender for a nomination or if it was just a bunch of fans overreacting.


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## Blocky (Jan 22, 2020)

Hm, how would you guys feel if this was TROS instead?


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## Son Of Man (Jan 22, 2020)

There should be an announcement for the next star wars director by the end of the month. Are there any directors you guys would like to see tackle star wars?


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 22, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> There should be an announcement for the next star wars director by the end of the month. Are there any directors you guys would like to see tackle star wars?



I heard that Taika Waititi may be in talks for a Star Wars film.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Xebec (Jan 23, 2020)




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## MartialHorror (Jan 23, 2020)

The problem with theorizing who would make a good Star Wars film is that there are two kinds of filmmakers. One makes perfect sense... in theory... as they've developed a reputation for making these kinds of films, like J.J Abrams. The other is riskier approach, finding a critical or indy darling, like Rian Johnson. The problem with the former is that they'll likely play things too safe, give us nothing that we haven't seen before. The problem with the latter is that they might take the franchise out of its comfort zone and upset the fanbase. So why knows who would make a good Star Wars director anymore. 

I remember one of the detractors of the NT (Fang? Suigetsu? Don't recall who) suggesting James Cameron and it... kind of makes sense? He definitely is a phenomenal action director and might push new grounds in terms of technology, but he probably wouldn't give two shits about the feelings of the fans. A lot of this is because people are either going to worship the OT too much (once again, Abrams) or they're going to want to tell their own story (once again, Johnson). This isn't even getting into how Disney or the share holders may or may not be holding the filmmakers back. 

I'd probably say Spielberg. While I think his involvement would've been more exciting during the OT or even the PT, I think his style would go well with Star Wars. At the absolute least, I'd say he understands family friendly entertainment better than most. Furthermore, I doubt Disney, Lucasfilms or the shareholders would want to piss him off by meddling.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 23, 2020)

All you need is a director and studio that are actual fans, not "fans" that only like it on a surface level, who prioritize a good story over agenda like the current batch of morons who run Star Wars now do.

There is really nothing complicated about it at all, Dusney is just too steep in woke to give a shit about anything else and that has cost them.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 23, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> All you need is a director and studio that are actual fans, not "fans" that only like it on a surface level, who prioritize a good story over agenda like the current batch of morons who run Star Wars now do.
> 
> There is really nothing complicated about it at all, Dusney is just too steep in woke to give a shit about anything else and that has cost them.



So who do you think would make a good Star Wars director then?

Because anyone and everyone can call themselves a 'fan', only to turn in a poor or subpar product. Actually, I find myself wondering if Star Wars would do better if they found someone who wasn't a fan. When you think about it, Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand did their sequels before the franchise was concerned with what fans wanted. They didn't seem to revere Star Wars as a brand, like everyone does now, presumably because they didn't grow up with it. But then again, back then, the continuity wasn't etched in stone and filmmakers could do new things without everyone freaking out. 

On another note, I just realized that Marquand directed "Eye of the Needle", which is apparently what impressed Lucas enough to get him the job for "Return of the Jedi". That's just bizarre, as "Eye of the Needle" is a very nerve wracking thriller, with little to make you think: "Yeah, these elements would work great for Star Wars".


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 23, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> So who do you think would make a good Star Wars director then?
> 
> Because anyone and everyone can call themselves a 'fan', only to turn in a poor or subpar product. Actually, I find myself wondering if Star Wars would do better if they found someone who wasn't a fan. When you think about it, Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand did their sequels before the franchise was concerned with what fans wanted. They didn't seem to revere Star Wars as a brand, like everyone does now, presumably because they didn't grow up with it. But then again, back then, the continuity wasn't etched in stone and filmmakers could do new things without everyone freaking out.
> 
> On another note, I just realized that Marquand directed "Eye of the Needle", which is apparently what impressed Lucas enough to get him the job for "Return of the Jedi". That's just bizarre, as "Eye of the Needle" is a very nerve wracking thriller, with little to make you think: "Yeah, these elements would work great for Star Wars".



Not even the original creator is safe in that regard. Even though George Lucas himself was the one who directed and wrote the Prequel Trilogy, people hated the Prequels, partly because of Lucas' own faults as a writer, but also because it effectively threw decades of fan preconceptions about the pre-Original Trilogy out of the window, even not following what little lore tidbits about the Clone Wars there were in the EU.

And you can't even rely on fan input on "what a Star Wars story should be", _because different people and different fans will have different ideas. _One person will want a story like the originals; another will one something unique to the setting. One fan might like Star Wars because it's for kids and adult; another person will demand that the series "matures" with them. Many will demand more stories about a specific group of characters; others will want new stories in the setting focusing around new characters.

The list goes on.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 23, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> So who do you think would make a good Star Wars director then?


Someone who not a lazy hack who simply copies the OT and to a lesser extent the PT like Jar Jar because they have no originality for one. Someone who is not being subversive for the shake of it like Rian was. Someone who is not so absorbed in pandering to the dumbass woke crowd like everyone under the Disney owned Lucasfilm of today. Literally anyone competent all in all, you can't get any worse than the Sequels unless you try to make it worse which being that it is Disney could very well be likely.


MartialHorror said:


> Because anyone and everyone can call themselves a 'fan', only to turn in a poor or subpar product.


So basically Jar Jar and Rian.


MartialHorror said:


> When you think about it, Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand did their sequels before the franchise was concerned with what fans wanted. They didn't seem to revere Star Wars as a brand, like everyone does now, presumably because they didn't grow up with it.


Well one, those two had far more talent on their hands than Rian and Jar Jar ever had. 

Two, there was only one SW movie so no shit they did not grow up with it because they were already middle aged men when the first film came out.


MartialHorror said:


> But then again, back then, the continuity wasn't etched in stone and filmmakers could do new things without everyone freaking out.


Implying that Continuity being thrown out and inconsistent unless it is correcting something already out of whack is ever good thing.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 23, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Someone who not a lazy hack who simply copies the OT and to a lesser extent the PT like Jar Jar because they have no originality for one. Someone who is not being subversive for the shake of it like Rian was. Someone who is not so absorbed in pandering to the dumbass woke crowd like everyone under the Disney owned Lucasfilm of today. Literally anyone competent all in all, you can't get any worse than the Sequels unless you try to make it worse which being that it is Disney could very well be likely.
> 
> So basically Jar Jar and Rian.
> 
> ...



Don't know why you're being combative this time around, as I'm not even debating you here. My whole point is that back in the 1980's, there was a lot more you can do with Star Wars. But even by the 1990's, the fans were already hissing at Lucas for stepping out of bounds. So it doesn't really matter who the directors will be anymore, as the brand has been weighted down by its own lore that if you do anything that hasn't been been previously, it's sacrilege. But if you do the same thing, it's lazy.

The funny thing though is when you look at Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand, their careers didn't extend much beyond Star Wars. Marquand was mostly a TV director, with ROTJ and "Eye of the Needle" being his only movies of note (the rest have mostly dissolved into obscurity). Kershner did the divisive "Never Say Never Again" and "Robocop 2" and that's pretty much all everybody remembers. I've always wondered why, although it's simply possible everyone saw the sequels as Lucas's films, not theirs. 

I am curious though, have you seen any other of Rian Johnson's works outside of "The Last Jedi"? Because he was an acclaimed filmmaker prior to Star Wars and his subsequent follow-up ("Knives Out") was equally acclaimed.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 23, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Don't know why you're being combative this time around


Combative how? I don't remember a single insult directed towards you, despite how clear my thoughts on you have been in the past so it's no like I am pretending to be friendly either.


MartialHorror said:


> My whole point is that back in the 1980's, there was a lot more you can do with Star Wars. But even by the 1990's, the fans were already hissing at Lucas for stepping out of bounds.


Not really. Outside of Ewoks being hated by a small part of the fanbase the fans were not having issues with the continuity of the films like they are now.


MartialHorror said:


> So it doesn't really matter who the directors will be anymore, as the brand has been weighted down by its own lore that if you do anything that hasn't been been previously, it's sacrilege.


Wrong. People want something new, they just don't want something that completely fucks up the lore and legacy of the films like making Luke a depressed homeless hobo and shit like Light Speed ramming or a Mary Sue like Rey being the most ultimate Jedi ever and killing the big bad of the saga when that should have been Vader's accomplishment.


MartialHorror said:


> But if you do the same thing, it's lazy.


Which it was in the case of TFA. Having similarities like the Prequels did was fine, the issue was that there was nothing new in TFA that made it different from any of the films that came before unless you want get into trivial shit like the MC having a vag instead of dick.


MartialHorror said:


> The funny thing though is when you look at Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand, their careers didn't extend much beyond Star Wars. Marquand was mostly a TV director, with ROTJ and "Eye of the Needle" being his only movies of note (the rest have mostly dissolved into obscurity). Kershner did the divisive "Never Say Never Again" and "Robocop 2" and that's pretty much all everybody remembers. I've always wondered why, although it's simply possible everyone saw the sequels as Lucas's films, not theirs.


...And? I am failing to see what the point of all this is. They did few flicks and were mostly known for SW, so they were not big fans? Don't see how that goes against my point that SW back than was something recent in their middle age life so the comparison to a director nowadays is incomparable because SW became bigger and more widely known especially to newer generation of directors who all heard of how big it was.


MartialHorror said:


> I am curious though, have you seen any other of Rian Johnson's works outside of "The Last Jedi"? Because he was an acclaimed filmmaker prior to Star Wars and his subsequent follow-up ("Knives Out") was equally acclaimed.


Only that time travel flick with Bruce Willis which was one of the most boring and nonsensical films I had ever watched with few if any highlights. Basically a prelude to me on TLJ since both of them were dull and incomprehensibly stupid.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 23, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Not really. Outside of Ewoks being hated by a small part of the fanbase the fans were not having issues with the continuity of the films like they are now.



I was referring to the prequels. The midi-chlorians especially drove people rabid. I don't even think the Ewoks became hated until later. 



> Wrong. People want something new, they just don't want something that completely fucks up the lore and legacy of the films like making Luke a depressed homeless hobo and shit like Light Speed ramming or a Mary Sue like Rey being the most ultimate Jedi ever and killing the big bad of the saga when that should have been Vader's accomplishment.



Once again, people were whining about similar things in the prequels.




> ...And? I am failing to see what the point of all this is. They did few flicks and were mostly known for SW, so they were not big fans? Don't see how that goes against my point that SW back than was something recent in their middle age life so the comparison to a director nowadays is incomparable because SW became bigger and more widely known especially to newer generation of directors who all heard of how big it was.



I was just pondering why they didn't do more. I'm not actually disagreeing with you on that point, but that's also why I think Star Wars was always kind of doomed, at least once Lucas decided to stop making them the first time around. Our entire generation is just too close to the brand, while the filmmakers in the 1980's just saw Star Wars the same way as modern filmmakers currently view the MCU -- a potential job. That's why I wonder if they need to find a director who doesn't revere Star Wars like most of us do. Such an idea could obviously go south, but... that's already kind of happening... so why not?


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## MartialHorror (Jan 23, 2020)

Actually, here is an interesting question. The fanbase is very rigid with Star Wars and have been since the 1990's, because by that point, most of the people talking about it had already grown up with the property. It's even worse now, but...

Why are Godzilla fans so easy to please?

That franchise has endured more severe dips in quality, has scrubbed out more continuities than there are Star Wars trilogies and can't even keep the tone -- and sometimes even the genre -- straight. The plots are almost always identical and no one really remembers the human characters. For those who think "The Last Jedi" shat on Star Wars, remember that Godzilla was meant to be a said representation of the dangers of the atom bomb, produced by a country that suffered the effects of actual atom bombs ... and then said representation would eventually do victory dances and get shot in the nuts by lightening. Hell, in the most recent film, an atom bomb ends up saving the f@cking day, which should piss off the fanbase... but didn't... 

I'm just curious because right now, I have absolutely no idea. The only thing I can guess is that it's because Godzilla didn't become a household name in the U.S until the bad movies became successful on video and television. I can only speculate with American audiences though, I don't know how Japanese fans would've reacted. Maybe people were furious in the 1970's, as that audience would've grown up with the original film, while modern audiences grew up with the good and the bad together. Or perhaps it's just because the internet didn't exist back then. I dunno, food for thought, I guess.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 23, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I was referring to the prequels.


No you were clearly referring to the OT since you said 80s and 90s to which only TPM came out in 99 which is the very end of that decade.


MartialHorror said:


> The midi-chlorians especially drove people rabid. I don't even think the Ewoks became hated until later.


There was hatred even if it was not as bad as the Gungans the Ewoks were still criticized by a small group of fans back in the day.


MartialHorror said:


> Once again, people were whining about similar things in the prequels.


Wrong. The PT never shitted on the legacy of the OT characters, at worst Vader's early life as Anakin was criticized as being whiny and annoying but he still became Vader and his legacy in saving Luke and destroying the Emperor was intact. Hell people now enjoy to see his transformation through the Sage in retrospect even with some hiccups nowadays so it is no where near the same level. In fact characters like Palpatine became even more popular especially with episode 3 and Obi-wan was just as loved.

And there is no way in hell you can ever argue the PT shitted on the OT cast like Luke, Han, and Leia since they only came before and never had their legacy trampled like the Sequels did by removing every accomplishment they had in the original trilogy. In terms of treating OT characters The Prequels did no where close to the same damage as the Seqeuls.


MartialHorror said:


> I was just pondering why they didn't do more. I'm not actually disagreeing with you on that point, but that's also why I think Star Wars was always kind of doomed, at least once Lucas decided to stop making them the first time around. Our entire generation is just too close to the brand, while the filmmakers in the 1980's just saw Star Wars the same way as modern filmmakers currently view the MCU -- a potential job.


It's the opposite. The Disney films have done more damage precisely because they were treating it as just another attempt to copy the MCU format but with no where near the same quality control due to KK's attempts to pander to the woke crowd. It failed as we see from the huge drops at the box office.


MartialHorror said:


> That's why I wonder if they need to find a director who doesn't revere Star Wars like most of us do. Such an idea could obviously go south, but... that's already kind of happening... so why not?


>implying Rian was not that kind of guy and his film did not damage the brand more than anything else

Yeah no what you need is someone who doesn't to have their heads up their ass and thinks they can just do what ever the fuck they want, consistency and proper structure be damned.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 23, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> No you were clearly referring to the OT since you said 80s and 90s to which only TPM came out in 99 which is the very end of that decade.



Er, I was explicitly referring to "The Phantom Menace", even using an example of what was setting people off, which as you say came out in 1999. But don't forget the special editions either. 'Han shot first' is arguably the most controversial moment in Star Wars history.



> Wrong. The PT never shitted on the legacy of the OT characters, at worst Vader's early life as Anakin was criticized as being whiny and annoying but he still became Vader and his legacy in saving Luke and destroying the Emperor was intact. Hell people now enjoy to see his transformation through the Sage in retrospect even with some hiccups nowadays so it is no where near the same level. In fact characters like Palpatine became even more popular especially with episode 3 and Obi-wan was just as loved.



I do agree that the heat the NT has received for the legacy characters was much more intense with the prequels, but people were still saying similar things about Anakin's portrayal in the prequels as well. The "NOOOOO!" was especially reviled.



> >implying Rian was not that kind of guy and his film did not damage the brand more than anything else
> 
> Yeah no what you need is someone who doesn't to have their heads up their ass and thinks they can just do what ever the fuck they want, consistency and proper structure be damned.



Rian Johnson is a fan, even if he's not 'your' kind of fan. "The Last Jedi" might've been subversive, but it's still structured around "Empire Strikes Back" and to a lesser extent, "Return of the Jedi", probably because he grew up with them like the rest of us. For Star Wars to ever move forward, they need to stop drawing parallels with the old trilogy and I don't think anyone who really grew up with them can do so.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 24, 2020)




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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 24, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Er, I was explicitly referring to "The Phantom Menace", even using an example of what was setting people off, which as you say came out in 1999.


No you weren't 


MartialHorror said:


> My whole point is that back in the 1980's, there was a lot more you can do with Star Wars. But even by the 1990's, the fans were already hissing at Lucas for stepping out of bounds.


By the 90s would take everything before TPM into account since it only happened at the very end of the 90s. You were clearly referring to more than just TPM. 


MartialHorror said:


> But don't forget the special editions either. 'Han shot first' is arguably the most controversial moment in Star Wars history.


So shit that clearly messed with the OT itself which was no issue fans had with the PT? Because that follows more in line with the shit I said which is that fans don't care about something different so long as it does not mess with the continuity and legacy of the OT which that moment did. And most controversial? Not even close thanks to the Sequels, especially TLJ and what it did to Luke's character that affected things so badly the IP is now tanking and underperforming on all but one front.


MartialHorror said:


> I do agree that the heat the NT has received for the legacy characters was much more intense with the prequels, but people were still saying similar things about Anakin's portrayal in the prequels as well. The "NOOOOO!" was especially reviled.


The Noooo moment was more mocked but no where near as reviled as you are making it out to be. And there was nothing similar to Anakin being whiny compared to Luke making a complete 180 in character since his was established while Anakin's was only told to us by Obi-wan which we knew was not telling the full truth. And we can see clearly which was far more hated by the huge drops in the gross of both TLJ and the next two films that came after it.


MartialHorror said:


> Johnson is a fan


 





MartialHorror said:


> even if he's not 'your' kind of fan.


AKA just a jackass who said he was only to look good in front of the company but had no love for it and clearly just wanted to fuck around? Because everything in TLJ was akin to watching some college frat boy taking pot shots at everything about Star Wars from shitting on it's established characters, to breaking the lore everywhere it went, while making cringe jokes wherever it went. You could not find a more self loathing SW film if you tried. 


MartialHorror said:


> "The Last Jedi" might've been subversive, but it's still structured around "Empire Strikes Back" and to a lesser extent , "Return of the Jedi",


It's "structure" is where it fails the hardest because not only does it fuck up whatever story lines Jar Jar had set up, it fucks up basic story structure with storylines that go nowhere, characters who regress and even repeat their previous arcs, no real hurdle or fall for our MC like we saw with Luke and Anakin in their middle movie, and taking out important characters too early and taking away essential plot elements that leave the real final installment with nothing as we saw with ROS having to proactively retcon it just to exist as a film.

The only "structure" it shares with Empire and Return of the Jedi is the scenes and lines it copies because for all his "subversiveness" Rian is almost as unoriginal as Jar Jar all things considered, he only puts things out of proper order like killing Snoke too early, and trying to remove any way for the resistance to exist.


MartialHorror said:


> probably because he grew up with them like the rest of us.


Nah, finished product shows that he did not give a shit about the IP and the interviews he shows himself to enjoy shitting on it like his replies to Mark Hammil on killing it which he just replies "I'm trying". Guy has no love for the franchise and it showed in dialogue like "laser sword" and other cringy millennial talk.


MartialHorror said:


> For Star Wars to ever move forward, they need to stop drawing parallels with the old trilogy and I don't think anyone who really grew up with them can do so.


Bullshit they can't, just stop hiring hacks like Jar Jar and Rian and guys who actually like the franchise as a whole including stuff from the old EU since despite how hard Disney and KK tired to remove it they still copied it anyway but made it worse so get guys who actually enjoyed that shit since as we have seen with the Mandalorian fans of the IP can reach an audience. All Disney needs to do is get their heads out of their asses and realize that.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 24, 2020)

This does not sound good. I heard already that Ewan was having arguments with the people in charge so I hope this does not mean they are going to shit up Obi-wan's character.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 24, 2020)

Well, we don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but I'll be optimistic and believe they're taking the show seriously enough that they want the scripts to be good ones before they get to work on pre-production.


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## MShadows (Jan 24, 2020)

If they fuck up Obi-Wan that will be the last straw for me.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 24, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> No you weren't
> 
> By the 90s would take everything before TPM into account since it only happened at the very end of the 90s. You were clearly referring to more than just TPM.
> 
> So shit that clearly messed with the OT itself which was no issue fans had with the PT? Because that follows more in line with the shit I said which is that fans don't care about something different so long as it does not mess with the continuity and legacy of the OT which that moment did. And most controversial? Not even close thanks to the Sequels, especially TLJ and what it did to Luke's character that affected things so badly the IP is now tanking and underperforming on all but one front.



If you're going to try to argue with me on the specific letter, then I'll rephrase it. George Lucas was already hearing grumbling through the 1990's- early 2000's. If you don't remember the hate 'Han shot first' got, then I just have to assume you were born afterwards.




> The only "structure" it shares with Empire and Return of the Jedi is the scenes and lines it copies because for all his "subversiveness" Rian is almost as unoriginal as Jar Jar all things considered, he only puts things out of proper order like killing Snoke too early, and trying to remove any way for the resistance to exist.



Eh? Structure is just the framework for telling the story. "The Force Awakens" structured itself around the original movie, "The Last Jedi" did around TESB and ROTJ, even with the subversive twists. If Rian Johnson wasn't doing so, then he wouldn't be able to be subversive at all.




> Bullshit they can't, just stop hiring hacks like Jar Jar and Rian and guys who actually like the franchise as a whole including stuff from the old EU since despite how hard Disney and KK tired to remove it they still copied it anyway but made it worse so get guys who actually enjoyed that shit since as we have seen with the Mandalorian fans of the IP can reach an audience. All Disney needs to do is get their heads out of their asses and realize that.



So wait, am I reading this wrong or are you praising "The Mandalorian"? Because if you are, doesn't that kind of mean Disney has gotten their heads out of their asses?


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2020)

Kuromaku said:


> Was that for real? As if I needed more reasons to question the effectiveness of democratic institutions.



The Oscars are nothing more than popularity contests that Hollywood loves whoring to keep itself generally relevant, especially in the last twenty or so years of socio-political environments. Same as the Emmy's and everything else. It doesn't really mean much ultimately.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 24, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> If you're going to try to argue with me on the specific letter, then I'll rephrase it. George Lucas was already hearing grumbling through the 1990's- early 2000's. If you don't remember the hate 'Han shot first' got, then I just have to assume you were born afterwards.


I never said I didn't to remember, I stated from the beginning continuity was no where near as bad as it is now. Yes "Han shot first" was a pretty stupid change but was just one change made years later after the Original Trilogy was done so it was more of an annoying minor retcon that fans did not like. The Sequels on the other hand constantly contradicted each other one after the other and unlike the old EU are made in a time where Disney has decreed everything published by them is canon so shit like Rey and Poe only just meeting at first in TLJ instead of the novelization of TFA are huge plot holes that were at least ignored in the old system of canon like the tier system writers used under Lucas. And that is just one of countless many plot holes and contradictions made in the new trilogy.


MartialHorror said:


> Eh? Structure is just the framework for telling the story.


And TLJ fucked up the structure with shit like killing off the main villain and taking away so many plot threads left by the previous one.


MartialHorror said:


> "The Force Awakens" structured itself around the original movie


More like copied and stole the framework of it.


MartialHorror said:


> "The Last Jedi" did around TESB and ROTJ,


Nah, it either lazily copied plot lines from those two and resolves them out of order before the final film was made, or just pointlessly wastes time with side plots that had no propose. Nothing like ESB and ROTJ which had all it's plot threads connect together like any competent filmmaker does.


MartialHorror said:


> even with the subversive twists. If Rian Johnson wasn't doing so, then he wouldn't be able to be subversive at all.


Lazily copying story lines does not stop being so just because you added a shitty twist that gives nothing. Hell Luke dying was not even subversive since it was just a lazy copy paste of Obi-wan dying to save the cast so even on that it is nothing more than being unoriginal.


MartialHorror said:


> So wait, am I reading this wrong or are you praising "The Mandalorian"? Because if you are, doesn't that kind of mean Disney has gotten their heads out of their asses?


You should actually pay attention to stuff like this next time because if you did you would know that Disney was not expecting much from that show. Not only did they not give out almost any merchandise but they were surprised at how well it was received at all. Just like with Fallen Oder they released them months before ROS came out because they thought they would not do well after ROS came out since the franchise was taking a huge hit after TLJ and Solo. Disney did not mess with them much because they were not optimistic about them to begin with, but as we are seeing with Kenobi, KK is still allowed to mess with shit which only tells me they have not learned anything and are still stuck up their own ass. One show being decent has not changed that.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 24, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I never said I didn't to remember, I stated from the beginning continuity was no where near as bad as it is now. Yes "Han shot first" was a pretty stupid change but was just one change made years later after the Original Trilogy was done so it was more of an annoying minor retcon that fans did not like. The Sequels on the other hand constantly contradicted each other one after the other and unlike the old EU are made in a time where Disney has decreed everything published by them is canon so shit like Rey and Poe only just meeting at first in TLJ instead of the novelization of TFA are huge plot holes that were at least ignored in the old system of canon like the tier system writers used under Lucas. And that is just one of countless many plot holes and contradictions made in the new trilogy.



I would say it was more than annoying, considering how they somehow sold merchandise off of how much people hated it. I think we debated on this before, but the backlash Lucas and the prequels were receiving practically became part of the pop culture at the time, with TV shows referencing it, movies referencing it, entire documentaries surrounding it. Beyond whether or not the NT is good or bad, I don't think people care as much for the continuity issues. For the haters, it was just another notch on the belt. If the NT is indeed hated, it's because of the 'wokeness' or what they ultimately do with the OT characters.



> And TLJ fucked up the structure with shit like killing off the main villain and taking away so many plot threads left by the previous one.
> 
> More like copied and stole the framework of it.
> 
> ...



Copied and 'being structured around said property' can be the same thing... Think Lucas's own words: "It's like poetry. It rhymes". 



> You should actually pay attention to stuff like this next time because if you did you would know that Disney was not expecting much from that show. Not only did they not give out almost any merchandise but they were surprised at how well it was received at all. Just like with Fallen Oder they released them months before ROS came out because they thought they would not do well after ROS came out since the franchise was taking a huge hit after TLJ and Solo. Disney did not mess with them much because they were not optimistic about them to begin with, but as we are seeing with Kenobi, KK is still allowed to mess with shit which only tells me they have not learned anything and are still stuck up their own ass. One show being decent has not changed that.



... But they more-or-less sold their streaming service using that show. I will admit though that it's odd they didn't do much of a merchandising push, so I looked it up and Favreau says it was his idea and Disney went along with it, because he didn't want the toys, etc. to spoil anything. Whether he's being truthful or is covering for Disney... I dunno. But even if Disney is surprised at how well the show was received, they had to expect quite a lot from it, considering how it's been the only real reason to get Disney+

I've heard rumors that Favreau might be the one to replace Kennedy. Does that make you more optimistic?


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## MartialHorror (Jan 24, 2020)

I'm hearing that Lucasfilms was in debt throughout much of the 1980's and that part of the reason he sold Star Wars was because merchandising sales were winding down. Apparently this has been documented before, but I'm struggling finding specifics. Does anyone know if this is true? 

I also remember hearing somewhere that the reason the prequels were made was because of similar financial difficulties, although I can't remember where.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I would say it was more than annoying, considering how they somehow sold merchandise off of how much people hated it.


People have been making merchandise out of memes for years, of course some companies will make shirts and shit out of it. If anything that downplays how much it was hated and instead says it was more mocked since it was in the end a minor thing compared to the Sequels.


MartialHorror said:


> I think we debated on this before, but the backlash Lucas and the prequels were receiving practically became part of the pop culture at the time, with TV shows referencing it, movies referencing it, entire documentaries surrounding it.


And still nowhere near as bad as it is now.


MartialHorror said:


> Beyond whether or not the NT is good or bad, I don't think people care as much for the continuity issues.


Bullshit they don't, even the small amount of people who like ROS admit it has continuity issues, much less the people who hate it and the sequels in general.


MartialHorror said:


> For the haters, it was just another notch on the belt. If the NT is indeed hated, it's because of the 'wokeness' or what they ultimately do with the OT characters.


So the same shit? The OT characters acting OOC is apart of continuity errors. The fact that TLJ abandoned ideas and shit from TFA and ROS did vice versa were some of the most common complaints from even the people who liked the Sequels because some of the biggest continuity errors were between the films themselves.


MartialHorror said:


> Copied and 'being structured around said property' can be the same thing... Think Lucas's own words: "It's like poetry. It rhymes".


Nah doesn't work here. When Lucas made similarities he never straight up copied the OT in the PT. The Clones and Republic having similar armor and tech to the Stormtroopers and Empire? Makes sense as a progression of technology while still being it's own thing. The designs of the Geonosian ships to the Death Star? a clear influence that would go into building it later in the OT as we saw from Dooku getting the documents for it in episode 2. Anakin losing his hand to Dooku? Obviously we need to know how Vader lost all his limbs and had robotics in the OT and it helps to show that degradation of the human part of his physical body as he grows more in the dark side. Anakin beating and killing Dooku that resembles the duel on the second Death Star with his son? A clear difference as we see Anakin failed and gave into the Dark side unlike his son who himself saw from Vader's robotic hand that he would go through the same thing which he than refuses unlike his father years ago. Anakin's face during the clash between Windu and Sidious resembling his face as Vader where he saw his son being tortured to death by the Emperor? obviously paralleling the two great decisions in his life as the first was his full turn to the Dark Side and the second was his return to the light and him rejecting the Emperor and saving his son.

As compared to the ST? The first Order and Resistance are direct carbon copies of the Empire and Rebellion with almost no differences. Snoke himself? just a carbon copy of Sidious. Kylo Ren, another carbon copy of Vader with a hint of Jacen Solo and his design ripping off Revan from the EU, no new ideas. Starkiller base? Literally just a bigger Death Star that even Han Solo mocks it as in the film. Maz's diner? Carbon copy of the Mos Eisley Cantina scene. Hux? Discount Tarkin. Destroying that Coruscant rip off planet? just a derivative of the destruction of Alderaan. Resistance being chased off by the First Order throughout the film? lazy and more boring version of the Falcon's escape from the Empire. Rey in her training going through a spot strong in the dark side and getting visions? Same shit with Luke. Rey's exact words with Kylo? Literally just recycling dialogue. Kylo turning against Snoke? Same shit as Vader turning against Palpatine except done way too early. Some character betraying some of the cast to the bad guys? a weaker and shittier rendition of Lando's betrayal of Han and Leia. Battle on Crait? Discount battle of Hoth. Luke dying to save the rest of the cast? recycled shit of Obi-Wan's death. Not even going into ROS because by this point it's unnecessary and you get the point.

The Sequels did not have similarities with the OT, they outright copied them when their own shit ideas were not in place.


MartialHorror said:


> But they more-or-less sold their streaming service using that show.


Irrelevant since nothing else about it was being marketed. Almost no merchandise and it being a downgrade of a possible movie they had planned before the box office flop of Solo do not tell us it was seen as something big. It's success was more of a surprise to Disney especially it's good reception with most of the fanbase unlike the Sequels have become.


MartialHorror said:


> I will admit though that it's odd they didn't do much of a merchandising push, so I looked it up and Favreau says it was his idea and Disney went along with it, because he didn't want the toys, etc.


Sounds like bullshit used to hide the fact it wasn't pushed because I highly fucking doubt a company like Disney which has been struggling to do good with the product would care about the words of one guy to determine if they should give out merc or not. Sounds more like they did not have high hopes at all. That or Disney is even more retarded than I thought, since the show's good reception has made people question why there are almost no merc of The Mandolroian and especially the Baby Yoda.


MartialHorror said:


> Whether he's being truthful or is covering for Disney... I dunno. But even if Disney is surprised at how well the show was received, they had to expect quite a lot from it, considering how it's been the only real reason to get Disney+


Since when? Where did they themselves state in any way the show was all they had to push compared to the other shit on there? Are you not just saying that because it was the only thing you cared for? last I heard that Marvel What If? was still a thing.


MartialHorror said:


> I've heard rumors that Favreau might be the one to replace Kennedy. Does that make you more optimistic?


Anything's better than her but to insure the whole franchise moves in the right direction they need to get rid of all her diversity hires and other waste of space that only care about agenda pushing to really put Star Wars back on the right track. Favreau himself will not be enough if his decisions have to go through the rest of KK's gang that have other plans than he does.


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## Mider T (Jan 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Someone who not a lazy hack who simply copies the OT and to a lesser extent the PT like Jar Jar because they have no originality for one. Someone who is not being subversive for the shake of it like Rian was. Someone who is not so absorbed in pandering to the dumbass woke crowd like everyone under the Disney owned Lucasfilm of today. Literally anyone competent all in all, you can't get any worse than the Sequels unless you try to make it worse which being that it is Disney could very well be likely.


>Nobody was named

Another complaint without any suggestions


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> >Nobody was named
> 
> Another complaint without any suggestions


Says one who failed to name a single source for his "275 mill" production budget.


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## Mider T (Jan 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Says one who failed to name a single source for his "275 mill" production budget.


Except I gave it to you, you asked for it again and I said that you were just too lazy to go back and look for it.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Except I gave it to you


No you didn't.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Bullshit they don't, even the small amount of people who like ROS admit it has continuity issues, much less the people who hate it and the sequels in general.
> 
> So the same shit? The OT characters acting OOC is apart of continuity errors. The fact that TLJ abandoned ideas and shit from TFA and ROS did vice versa were some of the most common complaints from even the people who liked the Sequels because some of the biggest continuity errors were between the films themselves.



That's not what a continuity error actually is. 



> Nah doesn't work here. When Lucas made similarities he never straight up copied the OT in the PT. The Clones and Republic having similar armor and tech to the Stormtroopers and Empire? Makes sense as a progression of technology while still being it's own thing. The designs of the Geonosian ships to the Death Star? a clear influence that would go into building it later in the OT as we saw from Dooku getting the documents for it in episode 2. Anakin losing his hand to Dooku? Obviously we need to know how Vader lost all his limbs and had robotics in the OT and it helps to show that degradation of the human part of his physical body as he grows more in the dark side. Anakin beating and killing Dooku that resembles the duel on the second Death Star with his son? A clear difference as we see Anakin failed and gave into the Dark side unlike his son who himself saw from Vader's robotic hand that he would go through the same thing which he than refuses unlike his father years ago. Anakin's face during the clash between Windu and Sidious resembling his face as Vader where he saw his son being tortured to death by the Emperor? obviously paralleling the two great decisions in his life as the first was his full turn to the Dark Side and the second was his return to the light and him rejecting the Emperor and saving his son.
> 
> As compared to the ST? The first Order and Resistance are direct carbon copies of the Empire and Rebellion with almost no differences. Snoke himself? just a carbon copy of Sidious. Kylo Ren, another carbon copy of Vader with a hint of Jacen Solo and his design ripping off Revan from the EU, no new ideas. Starkiller base? Literally just a bigger Death Star that even Han Solo mocks it as in the film. Maz's diner? Carbon copy of the Mos Eisley Cantina scene. Hux? Discount Tarkin. Destroying that Coruscant rip off planet? just a derivative of the destruction of Alderaan. Resistance being chased off by the First Order throughout the film? lazy and more boring version of the Falcon's escape from the Empire. Rey in her training going through a spot strong in the dark side and getting visions? Same shit with Luke. Rey's exact words with Kylo? Literally just recycling dialogue. Kylo turning against Snoke? Same shit as Vader turning against Palpatine except done way too early. Some character betraying some of the cast to the bad guys? a weaker and shittier rendition of Lando's betrayal of Han and Leia. Battle on Crait? Discount battle of Hoth. Luke dying to save the rest of the cast? recycled shit of Obi-Wan's death. Not even going into ROS because by this point it's unnecessary and you get the point.
> 
> The Sequels did not have similarities with the OT, they outright copied them when their own shit ideas were not in place.



This is a strange point to argue. They don't have similarities... but they copied them? 



> Since when? Where did they themselves state in any way the show was all they had to push compared to the other shit on there? Are you not just saying that because it was the only thing you cared for? last I heard that Marvel What If? was still a thing.



They're not obviously going to ever say that, but it was pretty much the only Disney original on the streaming service, outside of the "Lady and the Tramp" remake. The Marvel stuff has been announced, but it obviously wasn't released for the launch. Nobody will buy a streaming service exclusively for something that won't come until months, if not a year, later.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> That's not what a continuity error actually is.


OOC is apart of that. Character inconsistency is every bit as much a problem as plot holes and retcons that ignore the way a previous character acts just like how retcons do not match or follow a scene from the same movies. 


MartialHorror said:


> This is a strange point to argue. They don't have similarities... but they copied them?


I have stated this from the very beginning. They copied scenes and even dialogue lazily with zero difference.


MartialHorror said:


> They're not obviously going to ever say that, but it was pretty much the only Disney original on the streaming service, outside of the "Lady and the Tramp" remake.


Which means nothing because Disney fans who wanted a streaming service like that were saying they were fine so since they at least knew there were dozen of originals to come in the future as was announced. If the Mandalorian was the only original out that just says that Disney were trying to test the waters instead of putting out so many originals at once. The fact is it has nothing more than being an original streaming show and almost nothing to market itself which does not happen for something Disney is hoping to do big since that goes against their business policy of getting as much out of it as they can to bring up costs which they definitely need since the IP is tanking bad.


MartialHorror said:


> The Marvel stuff has been announced, but it obviously wasn't released for the launch. Nobody will buy a streaming service exclusively for something that won't come until months, if not a year, later.


They do though. The people buying this streaming service should already be used to stuff like Netflix so it's not like in their minds they are buying nothing. Disney took away any of the Marvel stuff Netflix had and told people it is all going to Disney Plus so the people who wanted more Marvel content but were not mad enough at Disney to ignore it would obvious flock to their site just to get a heads up before the new Marvel content came up. Others would just want a streaming service in the future for things they were a fan of that involved Disney which is a lot because it's not just Marvel and SW that Disney owns, They own most of whatever is out nowadays especially after the Fox buyout so more and more people would have something to look forward to.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> OOC is apart of that. Character inconsistency is every bit as much a problem as plot holes and retcons that ignore the way a previous character acts just like how retcons do not match or follow a scene from the same movies.



OK, I get what you mean, but 'continuity error' is an actual term when there's a mistake between edits. But now I'm debating on the word, so I'll just say I get what you mean. 



> I have stated this from the very beginning. They copied scenes and even dialogue lazily with zero difference.



I was just confused by your choice of words. 



> Which means nothing because Disney fans who wanted a streaming service like that were saying they were fine so since they at least knew there were dozen of originals to come in the future as was announced. If the Mandalorian was the only original out that just says that Disney were trying to test the waters instead of putting out so many originals at once. The fact is it has nothing more than being an original streaming show and almost nothing to market itself which does not happen for something Disney is hoping to do big since that goes against their business policy of getting as much out of it as they can to bring up costs which they definitely need since the IP is tanking bad.



Really? I kept hearing that after the Mandalorian ended, their subscribe count dropped, although I don't have any evidence of this. It just seems odd, as original content seems to be the primary battleground for streaming services. You'd also think Disney would have at least one MCU show ready for the launch, considering how Marvel has surpassed Star Wars. 



> They do though. The people buying this streaming service should already be used to stuff like Netflix so it's not like in their minds they are buying nothing. Disney took away any of the Marvel stuff Netflix had and told people it is all going to Disney Plus so the people who wanted more Marvel content but were not mad enough at Disney to ignore it would obvious flock to their site just to get a heads up before the new Marvel content came up. Others would just want a streaming service in the future for things they were a fan of that involved Disney which is a lot because it's not just Marvel and SW that Disney owns, They own most of whatever is out nowadays especially after the Fox buyout so more and more people would have something to look forward to.



Maybe you're right here. I myself hop from streaming service to streaming service, usually dependent on what has the most stuff I'm interested in watching. All Disney+ had for me was the Mandalorian and "Willow". But I can't pretend like I know how everyone else is with streaming services.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> This is a strange point to argue. They don't have similarities... but they copied them?



The First Order patterning itself off the Galactic Empire _is part of the point. _They idolize the "glorious past" of the Galactic Empire, preach of the "evils" of the New Republic, and desire to bring back the "glories of the past" by any means necessary. That doesn't make them a "copy" of the Galactic Empire, but a dark counterpart to both the Confederacy _and _the Rebel Alliance. 

The design similarities of the First Order vehicles and vessels to Galactic Empire designs also makes sense for the similar reasons: Same manufacturers and at least three decades of technological advancements. 

There are similar story-beats, but the executions are different enough to be distinct from each other. DJ didn't redeem himself like Lando; the Battle of Crait didn't start as an evacuation, but as a desperate last stand while they tried to call for help; the First Order pursuit of the entire Resistance fleet was caused by technological advancement allowing for hyper-space tracking, not a faulty hyper-drive. Starkiller Base's function was to decapitate the Republic and mark the beginning of the First Order's conquest, while the Death Star destroying Alderaan was to demonstrate its power. 

Similar themes, but different enough to be individually distinct. It's why I view the Star Wars Saga as an example of Ring Composition brought to film. It is evident between the Original and Prequel Trilogies, and I believe the same is true between the Sequels and the other Trilogies.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> OK, I get what you mean, but 'continuity error' is an actual term when there's a mistake between edits. But now I'm debating on the word, so I'll just say I get what you mean.


Fine.


MartialHorror said:


> Really? I kept hearing that after the Mandalorian ended, their subscribe count dropped, although I don't have any evidence of this.


Well honesty did you not state they had almost no other originals? Kinda makes sense they woulds drop when people found there was nothing else to watch. Likely made up mostly of SW fans who were curious and than stopped after finishing the show.


MartialHorror said:


> It just seems odd, as original content seems to be the primary battleground for streaming services. You'd also think Disney would have at least one MCU show ready for the launch, considering how Marvel has surpassed Star Wars.


We have seen how incompetent Disney is and since I heard there were major issues at launch for many subscribers so it seems they were not sure they could get this thing running properly at all. Which just goes along with my point that Disney were only testing the waters for the real big products to come.


MartialHorror said:


> Maybe you're right here. I myself hop from streaming service to streaming service, usually dependent on what has the most stuff I'm interested in watching. All Disney+ had for me was the Mandalorian and "Willow". But I can't pretend like I know how everyone else is with streaming services.


With the low amount of originals they had to being with, and the fact once the Mandalorian was done many people went away, it only goes to tell me that they were not putting their all into it and were seeing how things went.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 25, 2020)

I'm still trying to find out if there's any truth to Lucasfilm being in debt, but I haven't found anything reliable. One website claims that it was because of new tax rules which would've gone into effect in 2013, which would've cost Lucas a lot of money... but then it turned out that the website was some conservative think-piece about the evils of Obama. 

I did find this quote from Lucas though, as to why he didn't do more Star Wars.

"“You go to make a movie and all you do is get criticized, and people try to make decisions about what you’re going to do before you do it. And it’s not much fun. You can’t experiment. You have to do it a certain way. I don’t like that, I never did. I started out in experimental films and I want to go back to experimental films.”

Even Lucas seems to agree with me that the Star Wars fandom is too rigid.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 26, 2020)

I have to admit... this cracked me up.

Reactions: Like 1


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## chibbselect (Jan 28, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> The First Order patterning itself off the Galactic Empire _is part of the point. _They idolize the "glorious past" of the Galactic Empire, preach of the "evils" of the New Republic, and desire to bring back the "glories of the past" by any means necessary.



I really wish the NT had done a better job conveying this, because it's a really cool idea. The First Order could have been portrayed as a reaction against the New Republic's weakness and inefficiency. This would have explained why people would join a group of evil pricks--maybe the FO promised stability and order and, as you say, a return to the romanticized past.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 28, 2020)

chibbselect said:


> I really wish the NT had done a better job conveying this, because it's a really cool idea. The First Order could have been portrayed as a reaction against the New Republic's weakness and inefficiency. This would have explained why people would join a group of evil pricks--maybe the FO promised stability and order and, as you say, a return to the romanticized past.



They should have made them rebels against the republic, formed from imperial loyalist survivors.
Reversing the situation of the originals, imo.

A galactic empire would never last the transition from the republic, without enough true believers in the first place.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 28, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> They should have made them rebels against the republic, formed from imperial loyalist survivors.
> Reversing the situation of the originals, imo.
> 
> A galactic empire would never last the transition from the republic, without enough true believers in the first place.



There is a reason I brought up the Confederacy in my original post. The First Order was formed by Imperial loyalists in the Unknown Regions, and later publicly joined by a bloc of worlds that split off from the New Republic. The Centrist party had large number of Senators nostalgic for the Galactic Empire and its ways, and had secretly cooperated with the remnants in the Unknown Region until they openly joined.

It's a mix of both the Confederacy and the Rebel Alliance in its reversal, with enough true believers to pull it off.



chibbselect said:


> I really wish the NT had done a better job conveying this, because it's a really cool idea. The First Order could have been portrayed as a reaction against the New Republic's weakness and inefficiency.



From the perspective of authoritarian Imperial sympathizers, that would be correct, though the Centrists also had an interest in undermining the New Republic from within when they could. The novel _Bloodlines _makes that rather clear.

As for how it was conveyed in the films, I think it is rather clear from a visual perspective and from key story points, the way the First Order deliberately patterns itself after the Galactic Empire, how it functions, and the way its followers perceive their enemies. 

Returning to that "glorious past" by any means necessary sums up the First Order.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 28, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> There is a reason I brought up the Confederacy in my original post. The First Order was formed by Imperial loyalists in the Unknown Regions, and later publicly joined by a bloc of worlds that split off from the New Republic. The Centrist party had large number of Senators nostalgic for the Galactic Empire and its ways, and had secretly cooperated with the remnants in the Unknown Region until they openly joined.
> 
> It's a mix of both the Confederacy and the Rebel Alliance in its reversal, with enough true believers to pull it off.
> 
> ...



But the problem is the movies don't show that.
You need extra things like that Bloodlines novel you mention for that.

I just saw the movies. 
So I am basically forced to make my own fanfiction explanations or pay for more shit.

The originals and even the prequels gave you what was needed from the get go.
The additional material was an expansion of the world and not an explanation of it.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 28, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> But the problem is the movies don't show that.
> You need extra things like that Bloodlines novel you mention for that.
> 
> I just saw the movies.
> ...



The Originals were the beginning, and everything was given from that first opening crawl. 

As I recall, people complained about "too much politics" when the Prequels went out of its way to show the process. 

There is still enough in the films to get what the First Order is all about, visually and from their actions. A fascist state formed by former Imperial loyalists who idolize and romanticize the Galactic Empire, and are willing to do anything necessary to restore the "order" the Galactic Empire brought. That is enough on its own for the films.

I brought up _Bloodline, _but not because it's "necessary" to understand what's going on in the films. It expands upon where the First Order came from, for those who want to read it.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 28, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Jan 28, 2020)

Nani


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 28, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Nani



The project was announced back in last year. From what I've heard, it looks to be a cross-media project between novels and comics telling a single, cohesive story set in a time period centuries before the Prequel Trilogy.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 29, 2020)

Yeah the time period is rumored to be called the High Republic era which would include a set of movies. We're supposed to get the director for the first movie before the month ends.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 29, 2020)

There's also this rumor saying EA is making a reimagining of KOTOR. I'd guess they want to disneyfy it and make it their own thing if these rumors are true. They could change the time period to High Republic to fit in with Project Luminous.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 29, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> There's also this rumor saying EA is making a reimagining of KOTOR. I'd guess they want to disneyfy it and make it their own thing if these rumors are true. They could change the time period to High Republic to fit in with Project Luminous.


Gonna fuck it all up bad like they have in the past.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 29, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> There's also this rumor saying EA is making a reimagining of KOTOR. I'd guess they want to disneyfy it and make it their own thing if these rumors are true. They could change the time period to High Republic to fit in with Project Luminous.



Who knows? Knights of the Old Republic was one of the Star Wars games I played when I was younger, so it'll be interesting to see how they re-imagine the story.


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## Pilaf (Jan 29, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 29, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> Yeah the time period is rumored to be called the High Republic era which would include a set of movies. We're supposed to get the director for the first movie before the month ends.



Well, there are rumors going around that Taika Waititi is being approached to helm a future Star Wars film.

I'd very much like to see what Taika Waititi can do for Star Wars, if that turns out to be the case.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 29, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> Well, there are rumors going around that Taika Waititi is being approached to helm a future Star Wars film.
> 
> I'd very much like to see what Taika Waititi can do for Star Wars, if that turns out to be the case.



I dunno. He's obviously made some great stuff, but his movies tend to be more comedic than that was apparently what caused Lord and Miller to be fired from "Solo".


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 29, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I dunno. He's obviously made some great stuff, but his movies tend to be more comedic than that was apparently what caused Lord and Miller to be fired from "Solo".



I'd argue his movies strike the kind of balance that's ideal for a Star Wars movie.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jan 30, 2020)

This is what happens when Disney pushes their narrative instead of making actual good Star Wars movies.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 30, 2020)

@MartialHorror @Sennin of Hardwork


It seems like Charles Soule works are the way to go when looking for information on future Star Wars projects. There was a Jedi outpost filled with artifacts in the Rise of Kylo Ren #2, and now we've got mention of a space station constructed specifically to aid in the settlement and exploration of the Outer Rim during the High Republic time period, in the recent Star Wars #2.

Looking forward to see what kind of stories will be set in this era, since it seems it will definitely be the focus of Project Luminous.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 30, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I dunno. He's obviously made some great stuff, but his movies tend to be more comedic than that was apparently what caused Lord and Miller to be fired from "Solo".


Sw is comedic


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 30, 2020)

Disney's attempts at telling a story in SW is comedic.


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## Pilaf (Jan 30, 2020)

Here's the tv show Lucas was working on


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## MartialHorror (Jan 30, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Here's the tv show Lucas was working on



The footage looks fine, but looking into this... How much money did Lucas sink into this? 

50 scripts were written? Was this cancelled before the acquisition? Or was it cancelled afterwards? From what I can gather, it was put on an indefinite hold in 2010, so that was before. Apparently it was just not considered practical. Disney considered reviving it, but ultimately chose not to do so. This makes me wonder if this failing to get off the ground is why Lucas chose to sell. This had to be a pricey experiment, without anything to show for it. It's easy to forget that Lucasfilms wasn't a bottomless well of money... especially if the claims that the studio was in debt are even remotely true.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 30, 2020)

You know who might be a good director for Star Wars? Alex Garland. 

"Ex Machina" showed he can do intelligent, suspense driven and thought provoking films. "Annihilation" showed he could do special effects driven films, while also maintaining the aforementioned intelligence and suspense. Even though he's only credited as a writer on "Dredd", he was apparently the one calling the shots... and if that's true, it shows he can do action. He's got experience, he's a visionary, he's won over critics and general audiences alike, so... maybe? Once again, speculating is tricky just because it might not matter how good you are, if you're being forced to bend to the whims of shareholders and executives. 

Also, I'm not really against Taika Waititi doing a Star Wars film, just... cautious? Even he apparently thinks he'd get fired in the first week. I actually haven't seen a lot of his work (only "Thor" and "What We Do in the Shadows"), so can't say I know the extent of his range.


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## Thdyingbreed (Jan 31, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> There's also this rumor saying EA is making a reimagining of KOTOR. I'd guess they want to disneyfy it and make it their own thing if these rumors are true. They could change the time period to High Republic to fit in with Project Luminous.


This is probably going to be shit since the original KOTOR games were made by obsidian..but I’ll take anything over the trash that is SWTOR.


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## Pilaf (Jan 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> The footage looks fine, but looking into this... How much money did Lucas sink into this?
> 
> 50 scripts were written? Was this cancelled before the acquisition? Or was it cancelled afterwards? From what I can gather, it was put on an indefinite hold in 2010, so that was before. Apparently it was just not considered practical. Disney considered reviving it, but ultimately chose not to do so. This makes me wonder if this failing to get off the ground is why Lucas chose to sell. This had to be a pricey experiment, without anything to show for it. It's easy to forget that Lucasfilms wasn't a bottomless well of money... especially if the claims that the studio was in debt are even remotely true.




He wanted to make 100 episodes, each taking some tens of millions of dollars to produce. It was a pipe dream, but a hopeful one. Probably one of the reasons he sold the franchise. This was before Darth Mickey altered the deal, apparently. He was under the impression at one point in time he'd get the 4 billion dollars and retain a lot of creative control over Star Wars simultaneously. It was naive of him, but it's apparently the impression they gave him. Hence the "White Slavers" remark later.


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## Pilaf (Jan 31, 2020)

Speaking of Kotor, there better be swoop racing.


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## Mider T (Jan 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Also, I'm not really against Taika Waititi doing a Star Wars film, just... cautious? Even he apparently thinks he'd get fired in the first week. I actually haven't seen a lot of his work (only "Thor" and "What We Do in the Shadows"), so can't say I know the extent of his range.


You should watch JoJo Rabbit.  I want to read your review.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 31, 2020)

Mider T said:


> You should watch JoJo Rabbit.  I want to read your review.



It's on my 'to do' list. Of the 'best picture' nominations, I've only seen "Joker", "1917", "PARASITE" and "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood", all of which are in my own personal 'favorites of 2019' list. I doubt I'll see "Marriage Story" or "Little Women" (not my bag, baby), but I plan on seeing the rest.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Also, I'm not really against Taika Waititi doing a Star Wars film, just... cautious? Even he apparently thinks he'd get fired in the first week. I actually haven't seen a lot of his work (only "Thor" and "What We Do in the Shadows"), so can't say I know the extent of his range.



Taika Waititi already directed the season finale of The Mandalorian (and is also IG-11's voice), so I would say he has the range necessary to direct a Star Wars movie.

That said, it all depends on who is announced.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 31, 2020)

Director should be announced today since its the last day of January


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 31, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> Director should be announced today since its the last day of January


Not like people will care since a vast majority of the fan base is not going to give a shit about the next SW film right after the disappointment that is the sequels.


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## Son Of Man (Jan 31, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Not like people will care since a vast majority of the fan base is not going to give a shit about the next SW film right after the disappointment that is the sequels.


You might be onto something
Would still be interesting to get a name and maybe some comments for the fans


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## MartialHorror (Jan 31, 2020)

It would depend on the director. If they get Denis Villeneuve, people would become interested, although that is probably not going to happen. If they get the Russo Brothers, people will care, because the Russo's are a big part of why the MCU is the #1 franchise, probably of all time.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 31, 2020)

Nothing is going to bring in any where near the amount of audiences the sequels had if Disney continues to let KK and co do as they please and shove more bs agendas down our throats. Hell would not surprise me even if they get the Russo's they most likely will be fired or heavily constrained by thoese in charge due to "creative differences" as we have seen in the past.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 31, 2020)

Directors don't matter, if the studio has the last say in all decision making.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 31, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Directors don't matter, if the studio has the last say in all decision making.



That's most movies though. Even Lucas wasn't above pulling rank on his director for "Return of the Jedi", but I do see your point. Nevertheless, general audiences don't pay  attention to behind-the-scenes drama and I don't think general audiences necessarily hate the new Star Wars films, at least anymore than they did the prequels based on the cinemascore ratings, etc. 

If they find someone popular enough, it might drum up interest. If Christopher Nolan, for example, signed on, people would get hyped. Even if in the end, he got run over by the studio.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> That's most movies though. Even Lucas wasn't above pulling rank on his director for "Return of the Jedi", but I do see your point. Nevertheless, general audiences don't pay  attention to behind-the-scenes drama and I don't think general audiences necessarily hate the new Star Wars films, at least anymore than they did the prequels based on the cinemascore ratings, etc.


Yeah no the massive drop from TLJ to Solo and ROS says otherwise. People do pay attention to that shit and the fact that it has affected the franchise as a whole is not going to go away any time soon especially if KK still has reins over the series.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Nevertheless, general audiences don't pay attention to behind-the-scenes drama and I don't think general audiences necessarily hate the new Star Wars films, at least anymore than they did the prequels based on the cinemascore ratings, etc.
> 
> If they find someone popular enough, it might drum up interest.



If it weren't for the line up of Avatar movies he is working on, I'd be interesting in seeing what James Cameron on a Star Wars movie would look like.

I agree that general audiences likely don't hate the new Star Wars films. There are people who also loved the Prequel films when they came out. I was just a kid when _The Phantom Menace _came out, and a young adult when _Revenge of the Sith _came out. I liked them back then, as I recall, and I still do now.

I've always loved the films as a whole.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 31, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Yeah no the massive drop from TLJ to Solo and ROS says otherwise. People do pay attention to that shit and the fact that it has affected the franchise as a whole is not going to go away any time soon especially if KK still has reins over the series.



I'm not saying they haven't lost a significant portion of the audience, but if the worst reviewed Star Wars film in a divisive -- if not outright disliked -- trilogy can still gross over a billion dollars, then most viewers will not care. I doubt Kennedy will be around past 2021 anyway. 

Honestly, if they can keep the budgets under control, a billion dollars would be a good haul, although "Solo" showed that was never a guarantee.



Catalyst75 said:


> If it weren't for the line up of Avatar movies he is working, I'd be interesting in seeing what James Cameron on a Star Wars movie would look like.
> 
> I agree that general audiences likely don't hate the new Star Wars films. There are people who also loved the Prequel films when they came out. I was just a kid when _The Phantom Menace _came out, and a young adult when _Revenge of the Sith _came out. I liked them back then, as I recall, and I still do now.
> 
> I've always loved the films as a whole.



General audiences are actually easy to please. They just want to gawk at the special effects.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> General audiences are actually easy to please. They just want to gawk at the special effects.



I think you're underestimating the general audience. 

As for me, I like to engage with films that I watch, particularly now that I am older.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jan 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I'm not saying they haven't lost a significant portion of the audience, but if the worst reviewed Star Wars film in a divisive -- if not outright disliked -- trilogy can still gross over a billion dollars, then most viewers will not care. I doubt Kennedy will be around past 2021 anyway.


Except that is wrong when the most divisive would arguably be TLJ since it had far more negative impact on the franchise as a whole since that is where things really started to drop. Besides that being a main part of the trilogy that started off with a film that made 2 billion it was only expected at least half of those people would still want to see it to the end which is possibly the only reason ROS barely scratched a bill at all. The films after will not have the benefit of TFA where people were excited for a SW film after 10 years because the franchise has fallen harder than it ever has in the public eye.

In fact one thing people seem to forget is that all the spin-off films that were not connected with the main trilogy all did about a bill less. RO made only 1 bill compared to TFA's 2 bill and Solo made only 300 mill compared to TLJ's 1.3 bill. Basically we see that when it comes to non main SW flicks less than half of the previous audiences care to see them in theaters. Whenever this "trilogy" comes out or not it will not come close to even ROS due to the bad reception of the previous films. Besides until we get a confirmation KK is leaving along with the rest of her club you can expect people to not care.


MartialHorror said:


> Honestly, if they can keep the budgets under control, a billion dollars would be a good haul, although "Solo" showed that was never a guarantee.


Problem is making a bill at all. ROS only had the desperate fans of the previous films who still cared or at least just wanted to cap off where they started regardless of their feelings of the previous flicks and even many of them were pissed off which is only going to turn off even more people who would not give a shit about a trilogy that has no relevance to the main films and nothing to make it feel significant to the Star Wars universe at large. Besides that "keep the budget under control" is easier said than done for a epic Sci-fi film that needs to wow the audience and market itself enough for people around the world to hear of it, and we know China which is the largest foreign market for most films is not going to give a darn about where these films go so that is going to make it even harder for any SW film to make close to a bill in the near future.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 31, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Except that is wrong when the most divisive would arguably be TLJ since it had far more negative impact on the franchise as a whole since that is where things really started to drop. Besides that being a main part of the trilogy that started off with a film that made 2 billion it was only expected at least half of those people would still want to see it to the end which is possibly the only reason ROS barely scratched a bill at all. The films after will not have the benefit of TFA where people were excited for a SW film after 10 years because the franchise has fallen harder than it ever has in the public eye.
> 
> In fact one thing people seem to forget is that all the spin-off films that were not connected with the main trilogy all did about a bill less. RO made only 1 bill compared to TFA's 2 bill and Solo made only 300 mill compared to TLJ's 1.3 bill. Basically we see that when it comes to non main SW flicks less than half of the previous audiences care to see them in theaters. Whenever this "trilogy" comes out or not it will not come close to even ROS due to the bad reception of the previous films. Besides until we get a confirmation KK is leaving along with the rest of her club you can expect people to not care.
> 
> Problem is making a bill at all. ROS only had the desperate fans of the previous films who still cared or at least just wanted to cap off where they started regardless of their feelings of the previous flicks and even many of them were pissed off which is only going to turn off even more people who would not give a shit about a trilogy that has no relevance to the main films and nothing to make it feel significant to the Star Wars universe at large. Besides that "keep the budget under control" is easier said than done for a epic Sci-fi film that needs to wow the audience and market itself enough for people around the world to hear of it, and we know China which is the largest foreign market for most films is not going to give a darn about where these films go so that is going to make it even harder for any SW film to make close to a bill in the near future.



I said "Rise of Skywalker" was the most poorly reviewed in a divisive trilogy, not that it itself was the most divisive. At best, it had a middling reception. At worst, it alienated "TLJ" fans, while failing to bring back those who hated "TLJ". But as to which had a more negative impact, it's unclear how much damage "RoS" has done to subsequent movies. 

You're right that keeping the budget under control is easier said than done, but Marvel usually has budgets between 150-200 million. It can be done, but ultimately, whoever is in charge -- whether it's Kennedy or someone else -- needs to commit to what they're going to do prior to filming. All of these drastic reshoots are both bad publicity and bad for profits.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 1, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I said "Rise of Skywalker" was the most poorly reviewed in a divisive trilogy, not that it itself was the most divisive.


Except TLJ is shown to have far more negative reviews from audiences. 


MartialHorror said:


> At best, it had a middling reception. At worst, it alienated "TLJ" fans, while failing to bring back those who hated "TLJ". But as to which had a more negative impact, it's unclear how much damage "RoS" has done to subsequent movies.


It's clear the TLJ did far worse hence why it has the highest audience drop of all sequels to a SW film to date and the franchise in general took a hit everywhere after it came out.


MartialHorror said:


> You're right that keeping the budget under control is easier said than done, but Marvel usually has budgets between 150-200 million.


And Marvel films usually look average in terms of special effects and few rarely get to a billion, and never had as much bad press as the recent SW films had.


MartialHorror said:


> It can be done, but ultimately, whoever is in charge -- whether it's Kennedy or someone else -- needs to commit to what they're going to do prior to filming. All of these drastic reshoots are both bad publicity and bad for profits.


The Re-shoots were bad because they upped the need for profits, not because they were found out publicly. And the problem is that KK might be the most incompetent boss ever with how she has handled the IP and the people she has left in charge of certain groups that it is assured they are most likely to not learn their lesson on keeping their budget in control or healing relations with the fanbase after shitting on it for so long.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Feb 1, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> That's most movies though. Even Lucas wasn't above pulling rank on his director for "Return of the Jedi", but I do see your point. Nevertheless, general audiences don't pay  attention to behind-the-scenes drama and I don't think general audiences necessarily hate the new Star Wars films, at least anymore than they did the prequels based on the cinemascore ratings, etc.
> 
> If they find someone popular enough, it might drum up interest. If Christopher Nolan, for example, signed on, people would get hyped. Even if in the end, he got run over by the studio.



Normally I would fully agree on this.
The memory of the casual crowd is indeed short, lasting until the next controversy takes its place.

But this I would dare say is the exception to the rule.
Star Wars has the most rabid and vocal fanbase out there.
People who not only like and enjoy it, but are consumed by it.
Hell, it's even an actual real life religion apparently.

Those fans that make star wars lovers look bad, will not let people forget.
They aren't capable of letting this fade. A real life negative memberry


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 1, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Normally I would fully agree on this.
> The memory of the casual crowd is indeed short, lasting until the next controversy takes its place.
> 
> But this I would dare say is the exception to the rule.
> ...


Well this would have more to do with Disney's incompetence like letting Lucasfilm representatives and key figures on public places like Twatter and others openly mocking and shitting on the fans which is only going to aggravate and piss off an already dissatisfied fanbase.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 1, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Except TLJ is shown to have far more negative reviews from audiences.
> 
> It's clear the TLJ did far worse hence why it has the highest audience drop of all sequels to a SW film to date and the franchise in general took a hit everywhere after it came out.
> 
> ...



TLJ has more negative reviews according to what scale? Rotten Tomatoes audience score? Cause even though TLJ has the lowest rating, the rest of the ST scored higher than the prequels. 



NostalgiaFan said:


> Well this would have more to do with Disney's incompetence like letting Lucasfilm representatives and key figures on public places like Twatter and others openly mocking and shitting on the fans which is only going to aggravate and piss off an already dissatisfied fanbase.



They were already like that, considering how multiple actors were receiving death threats due to their involvement in the prequels and Lucas himself stopped making any more because of the fandom. Lucas still seems bitter over it.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 1, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> TLJ has more negative reviews according to what scale?


The fact it turned away more fans than any film in Star Wars history for one. The fact that it resulted in a drop off of 700 mill from it's previous episode which has never happened to any other SW film and the fact the franchise as a whole has taken a massive hit on all fronts from it. The fact that even ROS for all the hype Disney tried to put into it sill failed to win back audiences and made even less money than TLJ by a huge number of 300 mill tells us clearly how badly TLJ and this whole trilogy has been received by fans and audiences. 


MartialHorror said:


> Rotten Tomatoes audience score?


You forgot other sites like Metacritic and IMBD where TLJ's audience and user scores are as bad if not worse than ROS. 


MartialHorror said:


> Cause even though TLJ has the lowest rating, the rest of the ST scored higher than the prequels.


No actually ROS is also getting bad reviews all around as shown across various sites so it along with TLJ is badly received even in comparison to the Prequels so the latter is inaccurate. We know how much better ROTS did compared to AOTC which told us not only did people just like it better than the last but that fans were no where near as dissatisfied and uncaring like they were with the Sequel trilogy by it's end. Otherwise ROS would not have done so much worse than TLJ as to barely hit a bill and struggle just to get past a spin off flick like Rouge One.

Besides most of these reviews where the ST score higher are only from critics, outside of ROS which is getting badly reviewed all around. Even in comparison to the hate the Prequels got the Seqeuls are even worse.


MartialHorror said:


> They were already like that, considering how multiple actors were receiving death threats due to their involvement in the prequels and Lucas himself stopped making any more because of the fandom. Lucas still seems bitter over it.


Wrong. The small vocal group that always goes around getting way too emotional over shit is nothing compared to the entire fanbase being completely uninterested as to even bother watching the final installment of "The Skywalker Saga". To pretend they all have always been like that is to just be dense and ignore the blatant mockery and jeers of shitheads like wendig and others combined with directors like Rian and Jar Jar calling their detractors all the typical left wing buzz words of "racists and misogynists" over even the smallest bit of criticism. The Fanbase has never been as done with seeing anything in this franchise as much as it has been in it's entire history.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 1, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> The fact it turned away more fans than any film in Star Wars history for one. The fact that it resulted in a drop off of 700 mill from it's previous episode which has never happened to any other SW film and the fact the franchise as a whole has taken a massive hit on all fronts from it. The fact that even ROS for all the hype Disney tried to put into it sill failed to win back audiences and made even less money than TLJ by a huge number of 300 mill tells us clearly how badly TLJ and this whole trilogy has been received by fans and audiences



The problem I have with your analogy is that you're blaming TLJ for ROS's under-performance, so why not blame TFA for TLJ's performing below expectations? Also, how does that relate to the prequels? "The Last Jedi" might have had the biggest drop, but it still sold more than "Revenge of the Sith". Does that imply the prequels weren't well received either? Or at the absolute least, that TFA was more liked than the prequels?



> You forgot other sites like Metacritic and IMBD where TLJ's audience and user scores are as bad if not worse than ROS.



It's not that I don't forget those, it's that I've been in too many debates where people dismiss metacritic, imdb and... well, pretty much all of those kinds of websites whenever those numbers don't suit them. I stopped bothering keeping up with what counts as 'reliable' for the moment. 



> No actually ROS is also getting bad reviews all around as shown across various sites so it along with TLJ is badly received even in comparison to the Prequels so the latter is inaccurate. We know how much better ROTS did compared to AOTC which told us not only did people just like it better than the last but that fans were no where near as dissatisfied and uncaring like they were with the Sequel trilogy by it's end. Otherwise ROS would not have done so much worse than TLJ as to barely hit a bill and struggle just to get past a spin off flick like Rouge One.



I was referring to the Rotten Tomatoes audience score, which "TLJ" infamously tanked in. "Revenge of the Sith" got good reviews though, the best of its trilogy. "Rise of Skywalker" got the worst reviews of all the movies.



> Besides most of these reviews where the ST score higher are only from critics, outside of ROS which is getting badly reviewed all around. Even in comparison to the hate the Prequels got the Seqeuls are even worse.



I wasn't referring to the critics. Imdb favors the ST and metacritic at least favors "The Force Awakens", "Rogue One" over Episode 1 and 2. Obviously if you acknowledge that TFA and Rogue One were better received than the prequels, then technically I would lose this point, as at least Metacritic gave TLJ the worst score over ROS, but something tells me you won't want to concede that. 



> Wrong. The small vocal group that always goes around getting way too emotional over shit is nothing compared to the entire fanbase being completely uninterested as to even bother watching the final installment of "The Skywalker Saga". To pretend they all have always been like that is to just be dense and ignore the blatant mockery and jeers of shitheads like wendig and others combined with directors like Rian and Jar Jar calling their detractors all the typical left wing buzz words of "racists and misogynists" over even the smallest bit of criticism. The Fanbase has never been as done with seeing anything in this franchise as much as it has been in it's entire history.



Honestly, whether you're right or wrong, this has simply always been how the fandom has been perceived. Lucas himself seems incredibly bitter towards the fanbase, telling autograph seekers to get a job and accusing them of only wanting his autograph to sell on ebay; not to mention himself blaming the fandom for him not making anymore movies himself. Either he's far too thin skinned to be making movies, or he knows first hand how crazy they could be. They've made documentaries about his collisions with the fandom, in-jokes dating all the way back to the early 2000's... and this was before venting on the internet became trendy.

I'm not saying it hasn't gotten worse, but these issues were always there.


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 2, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Honestly, whether you're right or wrong, this has simply always been how the fandom has been perceived. Lucas himself seems incredibly bitter towards the fanbase, telling autograph seekers to get a job and accusing them of only wanting his autograph to sell on ebay; not to mention himself blaming the fandom for him not making anymore movies himself. Either he's far too thin skinned to be making movies, or he knows first hand how crazy they could be. They've made documentaries about his collisions with the fandom, in-jokes dating all the way back to the early 2000's... and this was before venting on the internet became trendy.
> 
> I'm not saying it hasn't gotten worse, but these issues were always there.



The truth of the matter is that every fandom has its fair share of people who are obsessively emotional over a specific franchise. It's why you get "fandom wars", as if the most vocal fans feel the need to prove something they like is "objectively better" than what other people like, with the regular fans caught in the blast radius. I wouldn't blame George Lucas for backing out of the franchise, given I imagine it is quite a bitter feeling when you put your heart and soul into a story for a world _*he made,* _only for self-entitled fans to hate it and hate him because it's not what _they _thought Star Wars should be, what they thought the Prequels would be like.

I'd argue the Sequel Trilogy proves the point, in a way. Regardless of whether it was a George Lucas-owned or a Disney-owned Lucasfilm making the Trilogy, people were never going to be satisfied with the end result. Lucas himself predicted that fans would have hated his Sequel Trilogy because of the focus he would have given to midi-chlorians and the Whills, the former being something many fans despised about the Prequels because "reasons". 

But he would have done it anyway, because at least he would get to tell his own story.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 2, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> The problem I have with your analogy is that you're blaming TLJ for ROS's under-performance, so why not blame TFA for TLJ's performing below expectations?


Because one was clearly more hated by fans while the other started up on far better relations? TFA reception became more divided later down the line after it released and only grew more sour from TLJ taking a dump on all of Jar Jar's mystery boxes removing any expectations the audience had for it.


MartialHorror said:


> Also, how does that relate to the prequels? "The Last Jedi" might have had the biggest drop, but it still sold more than "Revenge of the Sith".


Debatable when all we have are domestic tickets and none to do with the worldwide numbers where ROTS made most of it's gross. And the point was that while ROTS made more than AOTC, ROS continued to do go down after TLJ, not up which says as much on how much worse fan reception is.


MartialHorror said:


> Does that imply the prequels weren't well received either? Or at the absolute least, that TFA was more liked than the prequels?


TFA was opening in larger number in countries that the previous films were not heavily advertised in like China and was heavily pushed and marketed and thanks to a whole decade passing since the last SW film was obviously going to make a lot. That means nothing when the next two films continued to go down and never rose up which is completely counter to how ROTS managed to rise far higher than AOTC which was the most criticized of it's trilogy which tells us the reception was clearly not as bad with the fans as TLJ which is why the next two SW films bombed and disappointed in that order.


MartialHorror said:


> It's not that I don't forget those, it's that I've been in too many debates where people dismiss metacritic, imdb and... well, pretty much all of those kinds of websites whenever those numbers don't suit them.


I don't care. I am using the audience and user scores of those sites to go along with my point that the general feelings on TLJ is even more negative than ROS. Box Office numbers are another indicator on the overall mood as Fans not turning up to your movies is a far more clear example of how badly your films are doing with fans.


MartialHorror said:


> I was referring to the Rotten Tomatoes audience score, which "TLJ" infamously tanked in. "Revenge of the Sith" got good reviews though, the best of its trilogy. "Rise of Skywalker" got the worst reviews of all the movies.


From critics. We don't know what the actual feelings of most RT users are because shit like what happened with TLJ obviously caused the site to crack down on whatever negative reviews for certain films they like to be cut off, hence the whole "ratings freeze" shit we have all heard about and the fact that film scores for movies like CM show us Bots who give only higher and positive ratings exist on that site. Which is why Metacritic and IMBD users are more accurate in comparison at this time even if they are not perfect.


MartialHorror said:


> I wasn't referring to the critics. Imdb favors the ST


And IMBD scores go down over the years like we saw with the PT which all had higher scores than they have now. Hell AOTC was sitting at a higher score than what ROS is currently at and that was 3 years after it came out.


MartialHorror said:


> and metacritic at least favors "The Force Awakens", "Rogue One" over Episode 1 and 2. Obviously if you acknowledge that TFA and Rogue One were better received than the prequels, then technically I would lose this point


Your problem is putting RO in the "ST" when it is only a spin off. In fact you ignoring to mention TLJ and ROS which are the only other two films in the ST along with TFA tells me you are trying hard not to concede on my point that the Sequels in general are more hated than the Prequels.


MartialHorror said:


> as at least Metacritic gave TLJ the worst score over ROS, but something tells me you won't want to concede that.


.....Da fuck? Dude my whole point there was that TLJ was more negatively received than ROS. Why would I concede to my very own argument being proven?



MartialHorror said:


> SNIP


I don't care about the rest of this because it has nothing to do with the topic on hand which is the fanbase being more angry about the ST to care about a new SW film.


MartialHorror said:


> I'm not saying it hasn't gotten worse, but these issues were always there.


No where near to the degree they have been now thanks to the Lucasfilm and Disney insulting their own fanbase as casually as they have now.


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## MShadows (Feb 2, 2020)




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## Xebec (Feb 2, 2020)




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## MartialHorror (Feb 2, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> TFA was opening in larger number in countries that the previous films were not heavily advertised in like China and was heavily pushed and marketed and thanks to a whole decade passing since the last SW film was obviously going to make a lot. That means nothing when the next two films continued to go down and never rose up which is completely counter to how ROTS managed to rise far higher than AOTC which was the most criticized of it's trilogy which tells us the reception was clearly not as bad with the fans as TLJ which is why the next two SW films bombed and disappointed in that order.



Actually you do have a point about TFA opening in more countries. Didn't think about. 



> I don't care. I am using the audience and user scores of those sites to go along with my point that the general feelings on TLJ is even more negative than ROS. Box Office numbers are another indicator on the overall mood as Fans not turning up to your movies is a far more clear example of how badly your films are doing with fans.





> And IMBD scores go down over the years like we saw with the PT which all had higher scores than they have now. Hell AOTC was sitting at a higher score than what ROS is currently at and that was 3 years after it came out.



What were the PT scores back then? 



> Your problem is putting RO in the "ST" when it is only a spin off. In fact you ignoring to mention TLJ and ROS which are the only other two films in the ST along with TFA tells me you are trying hard not to concede on my point that the Sequels in general are more hated than the Prequels.



I probably should've said Disney Wars. I've said ROS has had the worst reception and have acknowledged that TLJ is the most divisive. I'm mostly just curious if you're acknowledging that "The Force Awakens" was better received than the prequels. While you're right that its reputation has taken a hit, that just makes websites like metacritic and imdb seem even more fickle as it suggests all ratings are knee jerk reactions. Honestly, critics do this too.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 2, 2020)

So apparently "Rise of Skywalker" just surpassed "Rogue One" at the box office... *crickets chirp*

I do think it's interesting how "The Last Jedi" did so much better domestically than internationally, while the prequels seemed to perform much better internationally than domestically. I wonder if it's the politics involved. 

"The Last Jedi" was tackling hot topics in American media, but I doubt the rest of the world really care about things like diversity. But with the prequels, Lucas was obviously taking shots at the War in Iraq, which might've annoyed American audiences at the time, as stuff like that was perceived as unpatriotic (funny how times change).


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 2, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> What were the PT scores back then?


Wayback could only take me to 2003 at the earliest so I could not check what TPM score was from 1999 to 2002 but AOTC was above to around a 7 for 2 to 3 years after release and ROTS stayed at an 8 for 2 years after it's release.  


MartialHorror said:


> I probably should've said Disney Wars. I've said ROS has had the *worst reception* and have acknowledged that TLJ is the *most divisive*.


Those two are practically the same thing. Thing is ROS is not the one that lost 700 mill at the box office compared to it's predecessor, TLJ is. One was getting so much hate from fans that it caused RT to change and even break it's entire user review system just to try preventing the next main film from getting the same heat only to make itself obvious to all but the most moronic people out there with them freezing the score to prevent it from going below 86  


MartialHorror said:


> I'm mostly just curious if you're acknowledging that "The Force Awakens" was better received than the prequels.


So you are just trying to change the goal post again to turn the attention away from the Sequels getting more hate than all the Prequels which is why the next so called "trilogy' may not even get to a bill like with ROS?


MartialHorror said:


> While you're right that its reputation has taken a hit, that just makes websites like metacritic and imdb seem even more fickle as it suggests all ratings are knee jerk reactions. Honestly, critics do this too.


Using this same logic undermines your point because because kneejerk reactions can also be positive which is precisely what happened with TFA since people were praising it to high heaven and disliking any sort of criticism that came at it only for it to get more mixed reactions as time went on to the point people nowadays are more likely to criticize it being recycled and the bad reception to the next two movies souring other people's opinion on it. 

But in the end the main point is that the Sequels in general have turned off more people than even the Prequels have which is why TLJ and ROS only sunk further and further down instead of getting a second wind with the third entry. If we are to seriously think a new set of 3 movies is going to come out as early as 2022 there is nothing that is going to just turn around fans who have been not only dissatisfied but insulted by the people in charge of SW.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 2, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Wayback could only take me to 2003 at the earliest so I could not check what TPM score was from 1999 to 2002 but AOTC was above to around a 7 for 2 to 3 years after release and ROTS stayed at an 8 for 2 years after it's release.



Hm. Interesting. 



> So you are just trying to change the goal post again to turn the attention away from the Sequels getting more hate than all the Prequels which is why the next so called "trilogy' may not even get to a bill like with ROS?



No. I even said if you did acknowledge that TFA was better recieved, then I'd have to concede. I'm not trying to get you to say that TFA was the better movie either, as personal opinion and overall reception are two different things. 



> Using this same logic undermines your point because because kneejerk reactions can also be positive which is precisely what happened with TFA since people were praising it to high heaven and disliking any sort of criticism that came at it only for it to get more mixed reactions as time went on to the point people nowadays are more likely to criticize it being recycled and the bad reception to the next two movies souring other people's opinion on it.



Sure, they can go either way. "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" was initially liked, but good luck finding any fan of that now. "The Thing (1982)" was apparently described as the most hated movie of all time, but now is revered as a masterpiece. I do agree that "The Force Awakens" has received a backlash since its release. We only disagree on if it's as severe as the backlash the prequels faced.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 2, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> No. I even said if you did acknowledge that TFA was better recieved, then I'd have to concede. I'm not trying to get you to say that TFA was the better movie either, as personal opinion and overall reception are two different things.


"better received" as in what? That more people like TFA than any of the Prequels? Because I already said how TFA reception started off good only to get worse as time went on to the point even when TLJ came out opinions on it were mixed overall and only get worse over time. 


MartialHorror said:


> Sure, they can go either way. "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" was initially liked, but good luck finding any fan of that now.


Even back as a kid the reception to Crystal Skull was mixed at best to me.


MartialHorror said:


> "The Thing (1982)" was apparently described as the most hated movie of all time, but now is revered as a masterpiece.


Well it bombed hard and was given razzie awards all of which the director John Carpenter stated hurt him emotionally and he took it hard at the time. It grew over the years thanks to becoming a cult hit on VHS and more and more people noticing it and recognizing it's quality which is why it became so revered later on.


MartialHorror said:


> I do agree that "The Force Awakens" has received a backlash since its release. We only disagree on if it's as severe as the backlash the prequels faced.


Judging by the continuing drop of box office gross as the films went on it only tells us the backlash was worse in many ways even if TLJ's mess of a film release had an even bigger hand in it.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Feb 3, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "Because I already said how TFA reception started off good only to get worse as time went on to the point even when TLJ came out opinions on it were mixed overall and only get worse over time.



Which is logical.
Opinions on a setup movie will naturally sour, if the promised pay off ends up disappointing the viewer.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Feb 3, 2020)

Playing the Fallen Order kinda helps drive home what a lost cause the galaxy of the sequel trilogy is. 

The main villainous force the player is fighting is the imperial Inquisitor faction. Essentially the junior dark side users of the empire. Because Darth Vader and Sidious are such towering figures it makes sense that you get to fight a smaller threat consisting of side villains. The Rebels cartoon does this too by using the ''grand inquisitor'' and Admiral Trawn(Though he's hardly a smaller threat).

But such a game would be unthinkable in the galaxy of the First Order. Darth Vader is so powerful that there is room for junior villains that rank far below him and the same could be said of Dooku in the prequel setting. But if you create a first order villain that's below Hux and Kylo Ren then things get very problematic. If you get any lower than those two you reach joke villain territory and as a rule joke villains can't carry a whole game by themselves. Alternatively if the new First Order villain is an actual villain then it would require some seriously good explanation why this good villain is outranked by Kylo the emo teenager and Hux the joke character.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 3, 2020)

Without spoiling you, the last part of the game does a pretty good job at reminding you, you are playing with low level force users and not the god like force users from the main movies.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Feb 3, 2020)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Without spoiling you, the last part of the game does a pretty good job at reminding you, you are playing with low level force users and not the god like force users from the main movies.



Oh I'm aware. An empire era game without....''that'' happening was never in the cards. But that's just another thing the original trilogy can do and the sequel trilogy can. If a similar event ever happened in a First Order era game it wouldn't be nearly so effective.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 3, 2020)

I guess it doesn't help the strongest dark side user of the First Order era is Kylo Ren ,a dude who struggled in a lightsaber duel with an untrained non force user. 

You know while playing that game it occurred me I wouldn't mind a game like that centered around Luke after the events of Episode VI, I'm no expert in the classic EU, but I read that in it Luke fights a handful of dark side users that the Emperor and Vader were secretly training to kill each other, so they could recycle that, Mark Hamill could even voice the character, just a thought.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 3, 2020)

I personally just think there are too many franchises out there these days, with the Marvel Cinematic Universe being such a hot property that it's this current generations #1 franchise. But I do agree that "The Last Jedi" was divisive in ways that probably hurt the brand and Disney misunderstood why the MCU can get away with yearly (often more) releases. Still don't agree that the prequels were less hated, but it's really impossible to say, as internet culture has changed that battleground so much.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 3, 2020)

So just for the sake of a topic, Kennedy mentioned that there will be a female director for Star Wars and I was wondering if any would gel well with the franchise. Once again, it's always going to be tricky because the OT was directed by people you never would've thought of for this franchise, while the NT has had many inspired choices who would seem perfect... only for it not to quite work out. 

I also have to admit... I had to really think of how many female directors I knew by name. 

Kathryn Bigelow is probably my favorite female director, so she might be my #1 choice. She's done a variety of films, science fiction, horror, drama, cult favorites, oscar winners, etc. I love "The Hurt Locker" and "Near Dark". Patty Jenkins is probably the most popular one right now and she'd certainly be fine, although I want to see how "Wonder Woman 2" turns out. Maybe Ana Lili Amirpour?

Leni Riefenstahl would be perfect -- okay, I'm obviously trolling here. The funny thing is I thought about her before I remembered that Lucas drew a lot of inspiration from that Nazi documentary she did.


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> So just for the sake of a topic, Kennedy mentioned that there will be a female director for Star Wars and I was wondering if any would gel well with the franchise. Once again, it's always going to be tricky because the OT was directed by people you never would've thought of for this franchise, while the NT has had many inspired choices who would seem perfect... only for it not to quite work out.



They've already had Bryce Dallas Howard and Deborah Chow direct episodes of the Mandalorian, so there is a start.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Feb 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> So just for the sake of a topic, Kennedy mentioned that there will be a female director for Star Wars and I was wondering if any would gel well with the franchise. Once again, it's always going to be tricky because the OT was directed by people you never would've thought of for this franchise, while the NT has had many inspired choices who would seem perfect... only for it not to quite work out.
> 
> I also have to admit... I had to really think of how many female directors I knew by name.
> 
> ...



Hopefully, it won't be one of her ultrafeminist "The force is a woman" friends.
I want her merits to get her the job, not ideology.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 4, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Hopefully, it won't be one of her ultrafeminist "The force is a woman" friends.
> I want her merits to get her the job, not ideology.


Knowing KK it will most likely be the latter unfortunately.


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## Mider T (Feb 4, 2020)




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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 4, 2020)

Welp there goes Johnson's trilogy or any movie made any time soon.


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## Son Of Man (Feb 4, 2020)

So much for getting a director by the end of january. They'll probably reveal it at the project luminous event?


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## Toph (Feb 5, 2020)

I don't really care about Star Wars anymore, but John Boyega and Oscar Isaac taking Disney's big check, putting nerds on their place and calling Disney out for their overload movie productions they can't even keep consistant because all they cares about is money is the highlight of 2020


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## Toph (Feb 5, 2020)

What's even more hilarious is the fact that the new face of toxic sci-fi nerds aren't smelly, gatekeeping, basement dwelling manchildren anymore... It's women in their late 20s and "fandom moms" who are so unhinged that they are unable to enjoy any form of media without obsessively inserting shoddy and weird romances into it


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## MShadows (Feb 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Welp there goes Johnson's trilogy or any movie made any time soon.


Good! It’s for the better. These fuckin idiots killed the franchise.


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 6, 2020)

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/enterta...s-the-recipient-of-the-bafta-fellowship-award



Congratulations, Kathleen Kennedy!


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 6, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> https://www.bbc.com/news/av/enterta...s-the-recipient-of-the-bafta-fellowship-award
> 
> 
> 
> Congratulations, Kathleen Kennedy!


Oh wow, more useless awards no one gives a shit for. Truly makes up for plummeting the SW brand into the ground in one of the most incompetent displays of being in charge of a franchise.


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## MShadows (Feb 6, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> https://www.bbc.com/news/av/enterta...s-the-recipient-of-the-bafta-fellowship-award
> 
> 
> 
> Congratulations, Kathleen Kennedy!


Yeah, she deserves that award for destroying SW. 

These “awards” are worthless!


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## MartialHorror (Feb 6, 2020)

Interesting video on the cancelled "Star Wars: Underworld". It sounds like it could've either been good or bad. I'm not sure how I feel about Palpatine turning evil because of some sort of romance gone wrong, but I guess that's part of the fanboy prison I'm always complaining about.


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 6, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Yeah, she deserves that award for destroying SW.
> 
> These “awards” are worthless!



Comics are still on-going, Project Luminous is due to be announced, and _The Mandalorian _is slated for a second season coming up, with plans for more potential Star Wars TV shows, from what I've heard.

It's not "destroyed" or "dead", and it won't be no matter how much you claim that it is.


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## Son Of Man (Feb 7, 2020)

Big news


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 7, 2020)

Well, that's semi random.


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## Son Of Man (Feb 7, 2020)

Fake news?


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## Fang (Feb 9, 2020)

Lmao

Certain someone right here in this thread is still ass-ravaged over TLJ and TROS floundering hard I guess


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 9, 2020)

Lucas


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## Suigetsu (Feb 9, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Welp there goes Johnson's trilogy or any movie made any time soon.


Billions of dollars acquisition just to make tv shows with baby yoda gimmick. Absolutely cring audience.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 9, 2020)

Suigetsu said:


> Billions of dollars acquisition just to make tv shows with baby yoda gimmick. Absolutely cring audience.


Except Disney did not make any because they were not expecting The Mandalorian to even do well on it's own


so they double fucked themselves.


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## blakstealth (Feb 9, 2020)

after recently finishing "season 6" of clone wars, marathoning Rebels, and going through Resistance, I'm glad to hear about the movies taking a break. The best SW stuff in recent years that does more for the franchise and universe are the shows, and we need MORE of them! I'm looking forward to the final season of Clone Wars in a couple weeks.


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## reiatsuflow (Feb 15, 2020)

The runs are over and joker has officially grossed more than star wars ep ix.


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## Mickey Mouse (Feb 17, 2020)

I still have not seen this movie....


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 17, 2020)

Mickey Mouse said:


> I still have not seen this movie....


Well that just proves it


Not even the mouse himself cares about this shit


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## Deathbringerpt (Feb 17, 2020)

Mickey Mouse said:


> I still have not seen this movie....



Join the club.


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## Mickey Mouse (Feb 17, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Well that just proves it
> 
> 
> Not even the mouse himself cares about this shit



I have just been busy, ha-ha! Don't make things up!


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## Deathbringerpt (Feb 17, 2020)

I mean, why? So I can waste money, probably hate it, go on more autistic ramblings online and completely burn my fucking time? The Mandalorian was great and that shit was free so I'm good Star Wars wise.


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## Son Of Man (Feb 17, 2020)

Bob Iger said they're going to focus on the streaming series and not movies for the time being. I think those rumors of Bob Iger and Kathy Kennedy not being ont he same page are true. Why did she say they would reveal the next director in Feb and then not go throught with the announcement? Also project luminous event is in 7 days. Will the high republic movies be turned into a series like Kenobi?


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## BlazingInferno (Feb 17, 2020)

Kathleen needs to go. She’s a major problem for this franchise George entrusted power to the wrong person.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 17, 2020)

Mickey Mouse said:


> I still have not seen this movie....



Neither have I, in fact I only watched TFA and TLJ for the first time a couple of weeks ago.  

(of course I knew their entire plots since they came out just by being on the internet) 



BlazingInferno said:


> Kathleen needs to go. She’s a major problem for this franchise George entrusted power to the wrong person.



More like sold you mean.


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## Toph (Feb 17, 2020)

My man John Boyega has so much big dick energy right now that his spiritual dick is piercing the Earth's crust. He's speaking out against a multi billion dollar company and a series where his character was underutilized while still thriving in the industry. He is allegedly fully booked and busy, yet still finds the time to bully nerds on the internet... I'm so proud of him

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 19, 2020)




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## Velocity (Feb 19, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> Bob Iger said they're going to focus on the streaming series and not movies for the time being. I think those rumors of Bob Iger and Kathy Kennedy not being ont he same page are true. Why did she say they would reveal the next director in Feb and then not go throught with the announcement? Also project luminous event is in 7 days. Will the high republic movies be turned into a series like Kenobi?



I would assume the original belief was “franchise fatigue is real and we released too many Star Wars movies too quickly but, if Rise of Skywalker does well, we’ll greenlight more Star Wars movies after a few years”. That would be why Disney booked release dates for Star Wars movies in 2022, 2024 and 2026. Of course, Rise of Skywalker didn’t exactly do as well as Disney had hoped and you can’t blame it on franchise fatigue any more because The Mandalorian came out and everyone loved it.

So now Disney wants Lucasfilm to focus on stuff they can put on Disney+ instead and we probably won’t be seeing any theatrical releases for Star Wars movies for while. I don’t think they’ve abandoned their plans to establish their own “High Republic era”, but they might decide to repurpose some projects as miniseries and specials for streaming instead.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 19, 2020)

Clay said:


> I would assume the original belief was “franchise fatigue is real and we released too many Star Wars movies too quickly but, if Rise of Skywalker does well, we’ll greenlight more Star Wars movies after a few years”. That would be why Disney booked release dates for Star Wars movies in 2022, 2024 and 2026. Of course, Rise of Skywalker didn’t exactly do as well as Disney had hoped and you can’t blame it on franchise fatigue any more because The Mandalorian came out and everyone loved it.
> 
> So now Disney wants Lucasfilm to focus on stuff they can put on Disney+ instead and we probably won’t be seeing any theatrical releases for Star Wars movies for while. I don’t think they’ve abandoned their plans to establish their own “High Republic era”, but they might decide to repurpose some projects as miniseries and specials for streaming instead.



That's not really how franchise fatigue works though. If anything, the success of "The Mandalorian" probably hurt "Rise of Skywalker", because why go to the theaters and pay for Star Wars when you can watch something at home. 

With that said, the only movie that I think suffered explicitly from franchise fatigue was "Solo", although I think annual releases would've caused the franchise to collapse underneath its own weight anyway, even if the individual movies were better liked.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Feb 20, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> With that said, the only movie that I think suffered explicitly from franchise fatigue was "Solo", although I think annual releases would've caused the franchise to collapse underneath its own weight anyway, even if the individual movies were better liked.



Solo was more a combination of casuals not caring about spin off's as much and hardcore fans wanting to give the middle finger after the whole TLJ fiasco, rather than franchise fatigue, imo.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 20, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Solo was more a combination of casuals not caring about spin off's as much and hardcore fans wanting to give the middle finger after the whole TLJ fiasco, rather than franchise fatigue, imo.



Most of the time it's more than just franchise fatigue. No one really cared about "Solo" to begin with, there was too much bad publicity surrounding its behind-the-scenes troubles, the trailers garnered a lackluster reception, etc. But I don't think TLJ would've had that big of an impact on its box office run if there was at least a year between releases. It was also a pretty crowded summer. 

Admittedly, part of 'franchise fatigue' is also when a sequel is divisive or poorly received. Solo coming out within half a year meant that there wasn't any time for the fandom to cool down. Even as a fan of "TLJ" myself, I was pretty burned out on Star Wars by the time "Solo" was released.


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## Velocity (Feb 20, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> That's not really how franchise fatigue works though. If anything, the success of "The Mandalorian" probably hurt "Rise of Skywalker", because why go to the theaters and pay for Star Wars when you can watch something at home.
> 
> With that said, the only movie that I think suffered explicitly from franchise fatigue was "Solo", although I think annual releases would've caused the franchise to collapse underneath its own weight anyway, even if the individual movies were better liked.



I don't think The Mandalorian negatively impacted Rise of Skywalker 'cause that would imply MCU shows on Disney+ will affect the profits of the movies and that's definitely not happening.

I mean, I don't think franchise fatigue is real anyway. The Last Jedi was just a very divisive movie and Solo was just a messy production. It's not like yearly releases would be bad for Star Wars, they just need to pace them better. One Star Wars movie every December would probably go down very well.

For what it's worth I actually liked Solo and I tend to think the only reason it did as badly as it did was because the budget ballooned ridiculously. It should've been a $100m movie, not a $300m one. The concept just wasn't big enough for a movie that expensive. There was no way it'd ever make a profit.

Between that and releasing the movie only six months after The Last Jedi, it's no wonder the movie bombed.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 20, 2020)

Clay said:


> I don't think The Mandalorian negatively impacted Rise of Skywalker 'cause that would imply MCU shows on Disney+ will affect the profits of the movies and that's definitely not happening.
> 
> I mean, I don't think franchise fatigue is real anyway. The Last Jedi was just a very divisive movie and Solo was just a messy production. It's not like yearly releases would be bad for Star Wars, they just need to pace them better. One Star Wars movie every December would probably go down very well.
> 
> ...



If they were to do an annual release, it would be better to tell one story at a time. So maybe they'd do Episode 7, 8 and 9 in order, THEN maybe do "Rogue One", "Solo" and... I dunno, the Obi Wan movie or whatever they had planned. Then if they want to do another trilogy, do that, also in order. Breaking up the primary stories with spin-offs only cluttered things and possibly confused people. I had a co-worker who actually thought Jyn Erso was Rey, because it seemed dumb that they would break up the primary story with a spin-off that has nothing to do with it. 

With Marvel, even when they were doing 2 to 3 movies a year, they were all building up to something. So even if you did not give a shit about "Captain Marvel", you'd almost feel like you have to watch it for the sake of "Avengers: Endgame". Star Wars made its spin-off films too optional. 

I actually do think the Mandalorian probably cut into "Rise of Skywalker"'s profits a bit, as it hadn't finished when it was released and was the cheaper (and better) alternative. It would've been better if the show had just completed its run, so audiences might be hungry for more Star Wars. 

But obviously there are a hundred reasons why Star Wars is struggling. 'Franchise Fatigue' should never be used as an excuse anyway, because it usually sets in after a misstep. 

If "Solo" was a success, what would happen then? It set up its own trilogy, so were they planning on like four different trilogies happening at once (the main one finishing, Solo, the Game of Thrones guys planned one, Rian Johnson's yet to be canned one)? Plus the other spin-offs like the Obi-Wan one?


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## Velocity (Feb 20, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> If they were to do an annual release, it would be better to tell one story at a time. So maybe they'd do Episode 7, 8 and 9 in order, THEN maybe do "Rogue One", "Solo" and... I dunno, the Obi Wan movie or whatever they had planned. Then if they want to do another trilogy, do that, also in order. Breaking up the primary stories with spin-offs only cluttered things and possibly confused people. I had a co-worker who actually thought Jyn Erso was Rey, because it seemed dumb that they would break up the primary story with a spin-off that has nothing to do with it.
> 
> With Marvel, even when they were doing 2 to 3 movies a year, they were all building up to something. So even if you did not give a shit about "Captain Marvel", you'd almost feel like you have to watch it for the sake of "Avengers: Endgame". Star Wars made its spin-off films too optional.
> 
> ...



I would disagree on that. 

A huge problem, possibly the biggest, that the sequel trilogy had is that they thought they could cut corners and get three different directors to produce three different movies within six years instead of the usual nine that Star Wars oftened went with. There's no way they could pump out sequels within a year of each other.

I don't know who would go into Rogue One, a movie clearly established as set before A New Hope, and mistake Jyn for Rey, but I'd assume they're few and far between. It'd be like thinking Qui'ra is Rey too. Even so, I think spacing the sequels out more and putting a mixture of multi-movie stories and standalones in between is a better approach and shouldn't really be that hard to follow.

Disney could've just gone with, as an example...

December 2015: Episode VII The Force Awakens
December 2016: Rogue One A Star Wars Story
December 2017: Solo A Star Wars Story
December 2018: Episode VIII The Last Jedi
December 2019: Obi-Wan A Star Wars Story
December 2020: Solo 2: Crimson Dawn
December 2021: Episode IX Duel of the Fates


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## MartialHorror (Feb 20, 2020)

Clay said:


> I would disagree on that.
> 
> A huge problem, possibly the biggest, that the sequel trilogy had is that they thought they could cut corners and get three different directors to produce three different movies within six years instead of the usual nine that Star Wars oftened went with. There's no way they could pump out sequels within a year of each other.
> 
> ...



"Lord of the Rings" did it. They'd just have to shoot them all at the same time. They would have to scrap the different director per movie idea though, to keep the vision consistent, but... this ended up being a problem anyway. I'd personally rather 2-3 year intervals myself, but it could be done.

I also was like WTF when I heard Jyn mistaken for Rey, but I think casuals just don't pay close enough attention to such things. They see a movie, they enjoy it... and then they don't really think about it again and are probably confused when the next one doesn't follow the same story.


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## MShadows (Feb 20, 2020)

Clay said:


> I would disagree on that.
> 
> A huge problem, possibly the biggest, that the sequel trilogy had is that they thought they could cut corners and get three different directors to produce three different movies within six years instead of the usual nine that Star Wars oftened went with. There's no way they could pump out sequels within a year of each other.
> 
> ...


I got a better title for Solo 2...

How about Solo 2: Bomb Even Harder, or Solo 2: One Last Try


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## MartialHorror (Feb 20, 2020)

Even though people would probably hate this, I thought when "Rise of Skywalker" was coming out that instead of Palpatine, they should've just brought back Darth Maul and use "Solo"'s existence to reveal he was still alive -- instead of just being cheap fanservice. This would mean that the Clone Wars would also be scrummed from continuity, which would piss off everybody, but I'll never forgot the "Huh? Wait, Darth Maul's alive? WTF?" reactions my theater gave when he popped up.

OR

If they don't want to do that, then just use Emilia Clarke's character. Then that would feel like less of a waste.


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## Pilaf (Feb 22, 2020)

Darth Maul had a perfect death in Rebels. You know, the show by the guy who actually knows and understands Star Wars. Maybe don't shit all over his stuff, too.


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 22, 2020)

J.D. Dillard and  Matt Owens. Not exactly the director/screenwriter combo I would have ever thought of, though it sounds like their project could either be a film or a Disney + series. Another site says that the story they are working on could be set on Exegol.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 22, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> J.D. Dillard and  Matt Owens. Not exactly the director/screenwriter combo I would have ever thought of, though it sounds like their project *could either be a film *or a Disney + series.


Get real catty. They ain't making anymore films for a long time especially with how hard ROS disappointed at the box office.


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## Velocity (Feb 22, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Darth Maul had a perfect death in Rebels. You know, the show by the guy who actually knows and understands Star Wars. Maybe don't shit all over his stuff, too.



Definitely. Must admit, though, I'd love to know how he escaped Palpatine and what happened to him between Solo and Rebels. How did he lose the Crimson Dawn and end up on Malachor? Did the Empire finally figure out Maul was the one running the organisation and sent Vader to shut it down?


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## Son Of Man (Feb 22, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> J.D. Dillard and  Matt Owens. Not exactly the director/screenwriter combo I would have ever thought of, though it sounds like their project could either be a film or a Disney + series. Another site says that the story they are working on could be set on Exegol.


I thought Iger said no movies for the streaming site


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 22, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> I thought Iger said no movies for the streaming site


He did, this is most likely just going to be either another small scale series like the Mandalorian or just a whole bunch of nothing that will be postponed indefinitely as an idea and nothing more.


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## BlazingInferno (Feb 23, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Darth Maul had a perfect death in Rebels. You know, the show by the guy who actually knows and understands Star Wars. Maybe don't shit all over his stuff, too.



Also Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau seem to be the only ones who still ask for George Lucas’ input, while everyone else does their own thing. Filoni would put Star Wars in a better direction if he took Kathleen’s place.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 23, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> They ain't making anymore films for a long time


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 23, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


>





NostalgiaFan said:


> Welp there goes Johnson's trilogy or any movie made any time soon.



Learn to read fluttershit.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 23, 2020)

> believing


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 23, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> > believing


Says the shill who has zero proof of anything contradicting Iger's own word.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 23, 2020)

Disney-Wars is dead on the big screen flutter, get over it.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 23, 2020)

i havent even seen RoS 

but 
>dead
nah

Favreau and Feige will perform miracles


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## Velocity (Feb 23, 2020)

BlazingInferno said:


> Also Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau seem to be the only ones who still ask for George Lucas’ input, while everyone else does their own thing. Filoni would put Star Wars in a better direction if he took Kathleen’s place.



Yeah, Filoni should really become the Feige of Star Wars. If anyone can provide a creative direction for the franchise, it'd be him, and we'd get way more interesting shit than "let's remake the original trilogy but do it really badly!".

Of course the trade off would be Ahsoka would be contractually obligated to appear in every movie.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 23, 2020)

*F*avreau 
*F*eige
*F*iloni


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 23, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> i havent even seen RoS


Because you saw how hard this under performed and bailed out like you always do when things don't go how you wanted.


Shiba D. Inu said:


> but
> >dead
> nah
> 
> Favreau and Feige will perform miracles


Nope. No films in a long while and with KK still at the reins and her cohorts still at large along with EA keeping a leash on the franchise expect nothing in the coming future. Not like Feige himself is not already drinking the woke juice anyway.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 23, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> n a long while


3 years at most


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 23, 2020)

Clay said:


> Yeah, Filoni should really become the Feige of Star Wars. If anyone can provide a creative direction for the franchise, it'd be him, and we'd get way more interesting shit than "let's remake the original trilogy but do it really badly!".
> 
> Of course the trade off would be Ahsoka would be contractually obligated to appear in every movie.


Personally I feel Filloni is very overrated and some of his "creative' decisions were annoying and lacking even if some parts he did well. I would rather Favreau if we had to choose but everything depends on how hard they clean the slate of KK's bullshit.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 23, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> 3 years at most


That was the timeline before they announced a hiatus on SW films shill.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 23, 2020)

I wonder if Midnight's Edge would feel sad when Kennedy actually leaves or is fired, as it seems like she's become their bread and butter. Their latest video on her is like 10 minutes, but it's all stuff they've talked about a thousand times before, with the only new piece of info being that she was apparently banned from the Mandalorian set.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 23, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> They're a click-bait channel. Of course they wouldn't have anything new, or even anything supported by actual news or facts.


As if you're one to talk catty.


Catalyst75 said:


> Either a film or a Disney + series.
> 
> A Disney + series would have the advantage of being given the number of episodes necessary to tell the story without the expectations of a film (and avoid certain "impossible standards").


What impossible standards? Basic storytelling? Logical plot threads? The simple act of consistency?


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## Runner (Feb 24, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Personally I feel Filloni is very overrated and some of his "creative' decisions were annoying and lacking even if some parts he did well. I would rather Favreau if we had to choose but everything depends on how hard they clean the slate of KK's bullshit.


I consider him overrated but the best of the bunch really sadly


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 24, 2020)

Runner said:


> I consider him overrated but the best of the bunch really sadly


Maybe in that he is the bigger SW fan but his incessant need to push his pet character really annoys me.


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## Velocity (Feb 24, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Maybe in that he is the bigger SW fan but his incessant need to push his pet character really annoys me.



Ahsoka has been used well, though. 

She served as Anakin's foil for much of The Clone Wars and eventually grew in ways he could not, then she showed up in Rebels around the same time Darth Vader did and we all knew the two would end up meeting.

I would assume the new season of The Clone Wars is the last time we'll ever see her, too. Disney isn't going to greenlight a show set after Return of the Jedi if they're establishing and pushing their own "era".


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## Son Of Man (Feb 24, 2020)

Project Luminous unveiling is tonight


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 24, 2020)

Clay said:


> Ahsoka has been used well, though.
> 
> She served as Anakin's foil for much of The Clone Wars and eventually grew in ways he could not


Kinda why I dislike her because despite being the apprentice of a mentally unstable guy like Anakin she never really suffered from his teachings in terms of negative impact from taking after him. Felt lazy and safe just to keep her purely good instead of showing how badly the teachings of a psychopathic child murderer would at least warp a student if not set them down a darker road.


Clay said:


> then she showed up in Rebels around the same time Darth Vader did and we all knew the two would end up meeting.


And instead of dying there and completing her story Filloni had to pull up a time travel plot device solely to keep her alive which no longer appears after that. She should have died there and finished her story instead of just being forced in because filloni just can't let his pet character die and move on.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Feb 24, 2020)

He could always go the cliche route of having a Descendant/Ancestor character, that just happens to be an almost  clone of Ahsoka.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 24, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> They're a click-bait channel. Of course they wouldn't have anything new, or even anything supported by actual news or facts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like a lot of their work. Their completed retrospectives are informative and interesting. But their 'weekly updates' ones are just to keep the views pouring in between their real projects and it's gotten pretty obvious.


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## Son Of Man (Feb 24, 2020)

Late to their own event. smh


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## Son Of Man (Feb 24, 2020)




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## Son Of Man (Feb 24, 2020)




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## Catalyst75 (Feb 25, 2020)




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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 25, 2020)

A good summary of everything

Reactions: Like 1


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## Velocity (Feb 25, 2020)

I'm sure the High Republic will be a cool era to explore for comics and books but since there won't be any movies or shows set during it will anyone really care?

I'm also going to need some convincing that Space Vikings are a threat to Jedi. The reason Sith work is because they use the same source of power as the Jedi, but they're stronger because they're fueled by emotion and want power - and the final lesson of Return of the Jedi is that forsaking violence for love is true power.

I s'pose since the vast majority of the High Republic stuff will be aimed at young adults, most of the lead characters will be padawans who aren't so up to the task. If it's like the Wild West out there, too, then maybe they can't so easily call for help from experienced Jedi Masters.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 25, 2020)

For all we know those space Vikings use the Force, remember that the EU, both classic and new have establish that there are many force user groups and cults independent of the Jedi and Sith all over the galaxy.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 25, 2020)

> _Star Wars_ returns to the big screen in 2022.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Feb 25, 2020)

Texas ranger Jedi vs space vikings.
That description doesn't bode well for me.




Shiba D. Inu said:


>


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


>


>official press release makes no mention of this
>only the reddit poster himself

Imagine degrading yourself to the point of buying the word of some random redditor.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> For all we know those space Vikings use the Force, remember that the EU, both classic and new have establish that there are many force user groups and cults independent of the Jedi and Sith all over the galaxy.


If they are as powerful as the Jedi in the force than it still contradicts the galaxy being at peace since that was the whole point of the Jedi being able to make and enforce said peace without a dark side equivalent to break the peace.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

OH NO NO NO NO NO


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 25, 2020)

I think the Prequels did a pretty good job at showing that despite all their talk the Jedi sucked at doing their job and were rather understaffed, and the galaxy is, of course, fucking huge, a small conflict in the outer rim would not count as a massive disruption of galactic peace.

You know, you people sometimes really lack imagination.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 25, 2020)

when is KK out ?


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## MartialHorror (Feb 25, 2020)

Yeah, I don't really get the complaint there. 

'Peacetime' is really just... a word, often used to placate the public. Even when there is no active war, there is still conflicts, even if the masses never hear about them. Often, that peace has to be enforced. Just look at our own world history. The only real issue would be that we'd have to know that the Jedi would ultimately win ever conflict they faced, the true prequel dilemma. 

But it could work if they keep the stories somewhat smaller in scale. After all, would it be out of character for a lone Jedi to stop a plot that could plunge the Galaxy into chaos at the expense of his or her life, only for the Jedi to bury the story in the name of preserving peace?

I think the only issue here is that the fans might not want to the Jedi potentially being fallible and morally grey. They like the idealized version of the order, which is why a lot of people complained about their portrayal in the prequels... and REALLY complained about their portrayal in TLJ.


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## Velocity (Feb 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah, I don't really get the complaint there.
> 
> 'Peacetime' is really just... a word, often used to placate the public. Even when there is no active war, there is still conflicts, even if the masses never hear about them. Often, that peace has to be enforced. Just look at our own world history. The only real issue would be that we'd have to know that the Jedi would ultimately win ever conflict they faced, the true prequel dilemma.
> 
> ...



I think it's just... The First Order sucked and now the next Big Bad, even if it's just for some comics and novels, is just a bunch of disorganised marauders. That's Knights of Ren levels of irrelevance. If this is where Disney moves away from George Lucas' work to do their own thing, it's not exactly a very inspiring start.

How did we go from the Empire, with Vader, the Stormtroopers, the Star Destroyers, the Inquisitors, then end up with the First Order which was both uninspired and completely dull only to now go in what seems to be the total opposite direction to what is essentially a bunch of gangs operating in lawless lands?

Feels like Disney learned the wrong lesson from the poor reception of the First Order. They shouldn't shy away from galactic threats because their first attempt was too much like the Empire, they should introduce compelling villains with strong motivations and plans and unique iconography.

I love the look of the Starlight Beacon, at least.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 25, 2020)

Clay said:


> I think it's just... The First Order sucked and now the next Big Bad, even if it's just for some comics and novels, is just a bunch of disorganised marauders. That's Knights of Ren levels of irrelevance. If this is where Disney moves away from George Lucas' work to do their own thing, it's not exactly a very inspiring start.
> 
> How did we go from the Empire, with Vader, the Stormtroopers, the Star Destroyers, the Inquisitors, then end up with the First Order which was both uninspired and completely dull only to now go in what seems to be the total opposite direction to what is essentially a bunch of gangs operating in lawless lands?
> 
> ...



That's kind of inevitable though. But think of it this way, people liked the Mandalorian, right? Most of his opponents were low class thugs, yet people were fine with that. 

I didn't read the entire treatment, but do they actually say disorganized mauraders? Or are you assuming that based on them saying 'Space Vikings', or is that name they used (Nihl? Or whatever it was) already part of the lore? Because that's probably not going to be the extent of their characterizations.

I mean, we talk about Jedi and Storm Troopers as if they're inherently compelling, but when it comes down to it, at their core, it's really just a war between Space Samurai and Space Nazi's. Why is Space Vikings any worse? Even if they're disorganized, there would obviously be a villain who would probably organize them and make them a threat -- because that's basic storytelling.

I think it's just too early to criticize the concept, as they probably haven't actually written anything yet and are just throwing out the basic idea.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 25, 2020)

You'll also need to remember that George Lucas based much of the original trilogy around Samurai flicks and most of the antagonists in the films that inspired him were... *gasp* disorganized vagabonds. But nobody holds that against "The Seven Samurai", where the villains are only a threat because of sheer numbers. Nobody criticizes "Yojimbo", because amongst those gangsters he faces emerges a villain who's a worthy adversary.

Once again, Star Wars is 'Space Samurai Vs Space Nazi's'. They were made compelling because of how they're executed. Perhaps this new project will suck because of execution. But 'Space Vikings Vs Space Lone Ranger' isn't an inherently inferior idea. Hell, that sounds like that was Lucas's plan before he decided to end the saga with "Return of the Jedi". 

Now all they need is 'Space Ninja'.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> OH NO NO NO NO NO


I like how "feelings" is also on the criteria list.

Between that and DIVERSITY  it reads like a shitgy tumblr blog.

Nothing's changed and this is going to be substandard, pandering trash.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> I think the Prequels did a pretty good job at showing that despite all their talk the Jedi sucked at doing their job and were rather understaffed, and the galaxy is, of course, fucking huge, a small conflict in the outer rim would not count as a massive disruption of galactic peace.
> 
> You know, you people sometimes really lack imagination.


Except that was the prequel timeline where the Sith really went out of their way to fuck up the established order the Jedi built up since it was all a prelude to the Clone Wars. 

This timeline on the other hand has no real stakes and is going to have to involve a small scale threat, which is why I wonder why they did not just have it set in some part of the Old Republic instead since even without the Sith you have other threats like the Mandalorians and such. Like it's fine if it's a bunch of side material like comics and books but as a the next "big event" it all feels very underwhelming.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I think the only issue here is that the fans might not want to the Jedi potentially being fallible and morally grey. They like the idealized version of the order, which is why a lot of people complained about their portrayal in the prequels... and REALLY complained about their portrayal in TLJ.


TLJ was criticized because of Luke's bastardized characterization, not because they were "fallible and morally grey". Besides the complaints about the Prequels Jedi was not on them being grey but on them either being "boring" or seen as stupid because people never paid attention to the plot detail of their force senses being clouded in the dark side but most of all that shitshow with the Midiclorians.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 25, 2020)

What made the Sith so dangerous was the fact that ever since their creation their objective was to take over the Galaxy and wipe out the Jedi in the process, an objective other force sensitive groups around the Galaxy didn't had.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> What made the Sith so dangerous was the fact that ever since their creation their objective was to take over the Galaxy and wipe out the Jedi in the process, an objective other force sensitive groups around the Galaxy didn't had.


No, what made them so dangerous was that they were really fucking powerful and COULD actually take over the galaxy if the Jedi were not there to stop them. None of the other force sensitive groups matched them and the only ones that did were lead by a former Sith Emperor and the other lived 25,000 years before the film saga and even before the Republic actually formed.


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## Son Of Man (Feb 25, 2020)

I thought it was going to be more than just some books


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> I thought it was going to be more than just some books


So did Disney before ROS failed to meet exceptions it seems.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> No, what made them so dangerous was that they were really fucking powerful and COULD actually take over the galaxy if the Jedi were not there to stop them. None of the other force sensitive groups matched them and the only ones that did were lead by a former Sith Emperor and the other lived 25,000 years before the film saga and even before the Republic actually formed.



I meant as a group, because of their ambitions they were a threat to the entire Galaxy and highly disruptive of the force, while everybody else are just regional issues.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> I meant as a group, because of their ambitions they were a threat to the entire Galaxy and highly disruptive of the force, while everybody else are just regional issues.


Which is because they were far more powerful than any other group which is why they never grew out of being regional issues compared to the Sith.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 25, 2020)

The nice thing about all of this is... I have no idea what you guys are talking about at this point. Most people probably don't and won't care.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

By that logic they don't care about what ever the hell is going on with this "high republic" either.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> By that logic they don't care about what ever the hell is going on with this "high republic" either.



They probably don't, outside of the name 'high republic' sounding kind of cool. But all of this is just to get people talking about it, so the brand doesn't fade away. It seems to be working too.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> They probably don't, outside of the name 'high republic' sounding kind of cool. But all of this is just to get people talking about it, so the brand doesn't fade away. It seems to be working too.


Based on what? one announcement video that has a few thousand views?

EDIT Okay 1 million, still not impressive since those kind of views are about average for any typical SW lore video. I don't see how this brand is recovering from it's fallout from the past few years. Besides the comments seem overwhelming mild to negative anyway.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Based on what? one announcement video that has a few thousand views?
> 
> EDIT Okay 1 million, still not impressive since those kind of views are about average for any typical SW lore video. I don't see how this brand is recovering from it's fallout from the past few years. Besides the comments seem overwhelming mild to negative anyway.



Based on you talking about it, lol. 

I'm not saying it's recovering either. We won't really know until we get further into the production.


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## Son Of Man (Feb 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> So did Disney before ROS failed to meet exceptions it seems.


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## NostalgiaFan (Feb 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Based on you talking about it, lol.


...and? because if this thread is the best indication that just proves how low excitement is since it's barely active as it is lol.


MartialHorror said:


> I'm not saying it's recovering either. We won't really know until we get further into the production.


Based off fan response it's not looking positive.


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## MartialHorror (Feb 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> ...and? because if this thread is the best indication that just proves how low excitement is since it's barely active as it is lol.
> 
> Based off fan response it's not looking positive.



lol, fair point. 

I just don't bother getting too worried... or hyped... about these kinds of things, as that anything can change without warning. I remember when Jurassic World was going to have human-dinosaur hybrids. Or when Avatar 2 would come out in 2014. Or when everyone was sure Sonic would be a disaster.

Hell, maybe all of this is just them testing the waters to see how fans react. Perhaps they'll adjust their plans according to the responses. 

Now with Iger gone, who knows what will happen now.


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## Potato Salad (Feb 26, 2020)

Incomin material for Star Wars


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## BlazingInferno (Feb 26, 2020)

GANDO said:


> Incomin material for Star Wars



Old news.


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## Pilaf (Feb 27, 2020)

I feel nothing. Is this what Disney wanted?


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## Pilaf (Feb 28, 2020)

ZOMG GUYZ STAR WUR


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## Gunners (Feb 28, 2020)

What I like about this series is the individuality of the characters. You wouldn't think it is possible for so many clones to have their own distinctive trait. It fleshes out the consequences of the conflicts to. When seeing the deaths on the big screen, it just looks like a bunch of nameless grunts dying by the millions. Then you look at Rex, and you see just how professional he has had to be when watching his brothers fall.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 28, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> ZOMG GUYZ STAR WUR



Some people are so deep in to dark side they desperately try to find hidden meaning in the order topics are written and reasons to get triggered over things that won't affect them, pathetic.


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## Gunners (Feb 28, 2020)

He's right though. When you do those charts, the stuff at the bottom is typically bottom of the barrel shit.

Their priorities are skewed and calling a spade a spade, diversity isn't something you should look to include in Star Wars because it comes so naturally.

It is not a world bound by the rules of our world.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Feb 28, 2020)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> _*meaning in the order*_                            ------------------ _*reasons to get triggered over things that won't affect them, pathetic.*_



Han shot first.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Feb 28, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Han shot first.



Okay I can stay behind that one.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Feb 28, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Han shot first.



Get that filthy Hutt propaganda out of here!


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> ZOMG GUYZ STAR WUR


Acting like diversity is a bad thing lol


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 5, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Acting like diversity is a bad thing lol


Imagine pretending Star Wars ever needed "diversity" when the old EU writers did fine with the setting without forcing it in and being obnoxious to the point writers need it as a checkmark above characters and story.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Imagine pretending Star Wars ever needed "diversity" when the old EU writers did fine with the setting without forcing it in and being obnoxious to the point writers need it as a checkmark above characters and story.


Lol if you don’t think the old Eu writers thought about concepts like diversifying their cast


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Mar 5, 2020)

It's not even about whether it's good or bad, it's more like the people that get salty and triggered about it are not affected by it in any form or way nor does the ethnicity and gender of the actors and actresses involved affects the quality of the work.

So complaining about something that they should be completely indifferent to, is absurd and bizarre, and then they get surprised when people call them racists, sexists, incels, etc... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Mar 5, 2020)

I don't really get the whole 'diversity' backlash in Star Wars, outside of Kennedy's comments. "The Last Jedi" is the only one arguably guilty of forcing it in.

I was watching the latest Midnight's Edge video and was thinking that they oversell Kennedy's using Star Wars for her 'ideology', because I don't think any of these really movies really pushed feminism. Each had their own themes and motifs, but outside of Kennedy's interviews, the only feminist aspect about them was having female leads. 

I don't know if people would even have much to complain about if Kennedy wasn't going around wearing "The Force is Female" shirts. 

I personally don't care when people use movies for politics, as that's what movies have been doing forever and with the 'Me Too' era, a woman nearly becoming the 1st female President, etc, it's a relevant topic. But 'The Force is Female'  always seemed pretty silly to me... Because the force is a power that has usually been controlled and manipulated by males, so that kind of goes against the point.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 5, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Lol if you don’t think the old Eu writers thought about concepts like diversifying their cast


"diversifying" Like what? Putting a random black/brown/gay/lesbian human character into the story and doing nothing else with them while patting yourself on the back? Or actually making use of a sci-fi setting and bringing alien characters that add far more to the setting and universe while still focusing on personal character traits and not just being there for woke points?


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> It's not even about whether it's good or bad, it's more like the people that get salty and triggered about it are not affected by it in any form or way nor does the ethnicity and gender of the actors and actresses involved affects the quality of the work.
> 
> So complaining about something that they should be completely indifferent to, is absurd and bizarre, and then they get surprised when people call them racists, sexists, incels, etc... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Except Nu-wars "diversity" had been nothing but focusing on their race and gender up to this point so your vapid overdone use of buzzwords are nothing short of being purposely obtuse.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 5, 2020)

With that said, I do think Hollywood is treating this 'feminism wave' as a trend, meaning it will probably die out before it can lead to anything worthwhile. There's been too many failures, although I'd say most of the problems are in how they're marketed.

I personally suspect the backlash surrounding how they used the image of Apocalypse choking Mystique in "X-Men" has made studios afraid of how women should be treated in an action film. In my opinion, this is why "Terminator: Dark Fate" flopped... as it's supposed to be this intense, high stakes action thriller, but in all of the trailers, the female heroes are beating the shit out of the male villain. Looks too one sided to be involving.

"Terminator 3" probably did more for the movement and looked a lot more compelling, as its trailers had the female antagonist beating the shit out of Arny. That's how you sell a high stakes thriller, by making the heroes look like they're at a disadvantage. It wasn't even that good of a movie, but it sold itself the right way. 

I haven't even seen "Dark Fate" yet though, so whether that's an issue with the movie or not, I can't say.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "diversifying" Like what? Putting a random black/brown/gay/lesbian human character into the story and doing nothing else with them while patting yourself on the back? Or actually making use of a sci-fi setting and bringing alien characters that add far more to the setting and universe while still focusing on personal character traits and not just being there for woke points?
> 
> Except Nu-wars "diversity" had been nothing but focusing on their race and gender up to this point so your vapid overdone use of buzzwords are nothing short of being purposely obtuse.


Ether one involves diversity so, yeah....

Probably a good thing to contemplate on a whiteboard


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Mar 5, 2020)

I wonder how people would have reacted to the Episode VII Lucas started writing back in 2012 before giving up and selling the franchise, since some of the most controversial decisions from the Sequels that we got were recycled from it like the overpowered female protagonist, emo villain obsessed with with becoming the new Darth Vader who carried around Vader's burned helmet and depressed Luke on a self imposed exile.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Mar 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Except Nu-wars "diversity" had been nothing but focusing on their race and gender up to this point so your vapid overdone use of buzzwords are nothing short of being purposely obtuse.



Well I have yet to see Episode IX so I can't comment on that one, but on the other two, I never saw or felt any of that, so yeah, that sounds like a bunch of obtuse buzzwords to me.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> I wonder how people would have reacted to the Episode VII Lucas started writing back in 2012 before giving up and selling the franchise, since some of the most controversial decisions from the Sequels that we got were recycled from it like the overpowered female protagonist, emo villain obsessed with with becoming the new Darth Vader who carried around Vader's burned helmet and depressed Luke on a self imposed exile.


Lucas is not a good writer he is a good world builder; this is evident in the prequels; so they would have reacted poorly.


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## Mider T (Mar 5, 2020)

I still can't get over how great of a movie this was.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "diversifying" Like what? Putting a random black/brown/gay/lesbian human character into the story and doing nothing else with them while patting yourself on the back? Or actually making use of a sci-fi setting and bringing alien characters that add far more to the setting and universe while still focusing on personal character traits and not just being there for woke points?



The old EU writers were the same people that created "The diversity alliance" which was a villainous terrorist sect made up of aliens that were trying to "dehumanize"  and "De-Jediy" the Galaxy...

Which is probably why certain elements on this forum and lots of modern Soywars writers hate the Eu so much. They had their ideology eviscerated for the vapid, racist nonsense it is.




NostalgiaFan said:


> Except Nu-wars "diversity" had been nothing but focusing on their race and gender up to this point so your vapid overdone use of buzzwords are nothing short of being purposely obtuse.


It's so bad I know more than a few LGB star wars fans who have abandoned Star Wars due to how disgustingly transparent the pandering is.

the so called "fandom menace" is growing by the day.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 5, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Ether one involves diversity so, yeah....


Except Disney writers only see it as the former, which based off your response is you essentially agreeing with shoving a "diverse" character into a story and doing nothing with it except for brownie points. Not the best choice of words you had there.


Turrin said:


> Probably a good thing to contemplate on a whiteboard


 You shouldn't need a chalkboard for such a mundane thing especially to the point of putting it over more important aspects like characters and a fucking story.


And again, knowing Disney their only idea of being diverse is almost entirely on token minority human characters with no other describable character other than filling a quota.


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> some of the most controversial decisions from the Sequels that we got were recycled from it like the overpowered female protagonist


Where? All we got were a female protagonist, never heard of her sharing Rey's problem especially in the "I am just all powerful out of nowhere without any good explanation".


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> emo villain obsessed with with becoming the new Darth Vader who carried around Vader's burned helmet


Again, where? Emo? Obsessed with becoming Vader? All I heard would was it involving his helmet and nothing else.


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> and depressed Luke on a self imposed exile.


For the third time in a row, where? The only thing you got was him being in exile, we have zero idea it was because he was depressed and even less about if it was as close to the OOC moment of him almost about to just murder a family member. Are you sure you're not just talking out of your ass here just to try to desperately defend this garbage trilogy by saying it would be just as bad? because that has been your side's go to argument for years.


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Well I have yet to see Episode IX so I can't comment on that one,


Pretty weak excuse since it has been out for a while that Disney just slapped on a Lesbian kiss at the very end of the film between two literally who characters no one remembers and than had it censored in China despite their push for 'diversity". And that itself is ignoring all the other shit that has involving Nu-Wars from just putting a book focusing on a Asian solely because a bunch of Twatter morons harped on about it to the godawful push of 'strong" female characters at the expanse of males from TLJ to the various garbage pushed out of books and Marvel comics.


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> but on the other two, I never saw or felt any of that


Than explain to me these interesting traits of these "characters" if you feel they have more to offer than just being there to fill a spot or for pandering?


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> so yeah, that sounds like a bunch of obtuse buzzwords to me.


...So did you just agree with my point about your comment or was this your meager attempt at using my own words against me to get some "gotcha" moment?


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 5, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> The old EU writers were the same people that created "The diversity alliance" which was a villainous terrorist sect made up of aliens that were trying to "dehumanize"  and "De-Jediy" the Galaxy...
> 
> Which is probably why certain elements on this forum and lots of modern Soywars writers hate the Eu so much. They had their ideology eviscerated for the vapid, racist nonsense it is.


Oh yeah those guys would be putting these current Nu-Wars hacks on suicide watch if they did that shit nowadays.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Oh yeah those guys would be putting these current Nu-Wars hacks on suicide watch if they did that shit nowadays.



Vice Admiral Holdo was basically just a redux of Noola Tarkona when you look at their words back to back.

"_YES, I do have a plan. And I don't think the humans will enjoy it very much._"

Sounds a lot like the shit Holdo said..plus Tarkona even killed herself in a sacrifice that was intended to be heroic in her deluded mind but basically resulted in an atrocity of unparalleled proportions. 

The Supremacy was where Children who were kidnapped from their families were indoctrinated and trained.

Holdo murdered babies in an act of naked terrorism 




NostalgiaFan said:


> Except Disney writers only see it as the former, which based off your response is you essentially agreeing with shoving a "diverse" character into a story and doing nothing with it except for brownie points. Not the best choice of words you had there.]



This is fucking Star Wars, a Galaxy spanning story with something nine hundred septillion sentient beings in it. Humans make up 30% of the entire galaxy's population, their offshoots another 12% , yet they monopolize politics..and between them, the Hutts and the Muun they control the commerce...And yet they wanna make the social problems in Star Wars "current year?"

friend, human skin tone means fuck all when homosapiens had so much sex they literally spawned dozens of new subspecies 

The social issues in wars should be, if you really _must _make a goddamn political lecture out of an SW story..it should be humans vs xenos..Especially when the Galaxy at one point spent eight centuries under a pro human apartheid state and the Empire pushed Humanocentrism.

I remember how in the EU it was established Palpatine's most ardent supporters on Naboo were black guys and how angry people got at that back then..it was a stupid thing to be indignant about them and it's positively retarded to whine about now.



NostalgiaFan said:


> And again, knowing Disney their only idea of being diverse is almost entirely on token minority human characters with no other describable character other than filling a quota.



And the moment Saudi Arabia and China stop coughing long enough to yell at Disney over "subversive content" they purge it any way 



NostalgiaFan said:


> Where? All we got were a female protagonist, never heard of her sharing Rey's problem especially in the "I am just all powerful out of nowhere without any good explanation".



A teen mom too according to some sources 

Lucas problem wasn't that his sequel trilogy was gonna be tumblr tier nonsense..But that Lucas kinda got inspired by Game of Thrones and some other stuff..and he was on that Abe Pill about "must proliferate the bloodline!" 

Rey handled by Lucas would probably be more like Luke instead of the evil, self centered, hyper violent monster we got in the ST.



NostalgiaFan said:


> Again, where? Emo? Obsessed with becoming Vader? All I heard would was it involving his helmet and nothing else.



And the complaint against Ben solo wasn't that he was an emo larper, its that the directors decided that we as an audience should take an emo larper seriously.

The friction arose entirely from that...Ben Solo is not now, nor ever shall be a legitimate villain. He isn't intimidating, he isn't bold, he isn't personally powerful and his presence engenders contempt not awe.

Had he been portrayed as the pathetic clown that he was and not sold as this tragic but intimidating force..a lot of the complaints would have faded away.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Except Disney writers only see it as the former, which based off your response is you essentially agreeing with shoving a "diverse" character into a story and doing nothing with it except for brownie points. Not the best choice of words you had there.
> 
> You shouldn't need a chalkboard for such a mundane thing especially to the point of putting it over more important aspects like characters and a fucking story.
> 
> ...


I never said I agree with that; I said diversity is an important topic to consider when writing; enough to put it on a whiteboard. You conflating all Disney writers as the same or somehow divining that the Whiteboard was listing topics in importance, isn’t my problem or have anything to do with what I said

As for the rest I don’t think you understand how a whiteboard works....


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Mar 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Where?



Google it or whatever, I ain't going to waste time on that myself..



NostalgiaFan said:


> defend this garbage trilogy... because that has been your side's go to argument for years.



Where? I've never defended or criticized the new trilogy on this forum or anywhere for that matter, and certainly not for years since I posted like half a dozen times in the three threads for the three movies. 



NostalgiaFan said:


> Pretty weak excuse since it has been out for a while



The difference between me and you is that you hate the movies but still give them money, while I haven't spent a cent on this, the only SW movies I ever watched on the cinema was Episodes I and II, all the others I either watched them for free on tv on pirated them, heck the only money I've ever spent on SW was the tickets for Episode I and II and the most recent Fallen Order videogame.



NostalgiaFan said:


> Than explain to me these interesting traits of these "characters" if you feel they have more to offer than just being there to fill a spot or for pandering?



Rey could have been a man and the character would have been exactly the same, Finn could have been white and nothing would have changed, Rose could have been a dude and the character would be the same, Holdo could have been male and the story would be the same, nothing about these characters races and genders was ever a defining trait of them or throw in our faces, so yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 5, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I never said I agree with that


You worded it so poorly it was sounding like you did.


Turrin said:


> I said diversity is an important topic to consider when writing


Which is fucking bullshit and only the type of retards that populate Tumblr and Twatter would ever argue seriously for.


Turrin said:


> enough to put it on a whiteboard.


Above characters and Story?


Turrin said:


> You conflating all Disney writers as the same


Except they have proven to be the same when it comes to spouting their own political agenda and garbage down out throats. You're only denying it instead of accepting that.


Turrin said:


> or somehow divining that the Whiteboard was listing topics in importance


Clearly it is since that's what using a chalkboard is for Einstein.

The fact they were showing it in the announcement at all tells us it is of importance for them to bother showing it at all.


Turrin said:


> isn’t my problem or have anything to do with what I said


You'r problem is that you have no idea what you are trying to say, you're just looking for an excuse to defend this tripe.


Turrin said:


> As for the rest I don’t think you understand how a whiteboard works....


That would be better said for you if you seriously think the use of one is of no importance when even the most basic of work groups know you use it to check out what you need to do and what must be prioritized.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 5, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I never said I agree with that; I said diversity is an important topic to consider when writing; enough to put it on a whiteboard.....



Why?

For example why would diversity matter in a story like the Last Kingdom? When the only diversity would be in which kings of Nordic peoples are invading which part of England? 

Why would diversity matter in say the New Lord of the Rings tv show which is going to focus almost exclusively on the Realms in Exile? Numenoreans were basically a mix of Egypt-Rome and England and the Western Kingdoms were not like the Eastern ones. 

And why the hell should our, racial or social issues matter in a galaxy where the vast majority of its non human population exist as second class citizens subordinate to either humans, near humans, Muuns or Hutts? What would "tackling racism" contribute to a setting like that? Unless it's tackling the way non humans were treated?


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 5, 2020)

the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Google it or whatever, I ain't going to waste time on that myself..


So just nothing as usual, which is funny because IWD answered it immediately so there was no use to hear it from you.


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Where? I've never defended or criticized the new trilogy on this forum or anywhere for that matter, and certainly not for years since I posted like half a dozen times in the three threads for the three movies.


You are doing that right now, or do you seriously think just mouthing off about how "I wonder how badly this trilogy would be received if Lucas was at helm" is not just some huge deflection from how badly this current trilogy is at the moment?


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> The difference between me and you is that you hate the movies but still give them money


Pffft Please I have not bought a single bit of merchandise from anything Nu-Wars and did not spend a single dollar on either Solo or ROS so how about you pick another talking point instead of assuming incorrectly where I spend my money.


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> heck the only money I've ever spent on SW was the tickets for Episode I and II and the most recent Fallen Order videogame.


You have basically spent more money on anything invoked with Disney-wars shit recently than me so it is hilarious seeing you try to act as if I did.


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Rey could have been a man and the character would have been exactly the same


Nope. Rey was made to basically be a self insert for KK and therefore was made to have no flaws and be overpowered to be a "symbol" to all girls everywhere which instead backfired when people got sick of her character being ass and being the prime example of a Mary Sue.


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Finn could have been white and nothing would have changed


So a character who is just there because he goes through the same damn arc twice and is practically a background character?


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Rose could have been a dude and the character would be the same


So completely pointless?


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> Holdo could have been male and the story would be the same


Wrong, if she were a he, he would have been called out for his bullshit but instead the film treats her as is she were only right when she fucked over the Rebels more than even the First Order did.


the_notorious_Z.É. said:


> nothing about these characters races and genders was ever a defining trait of them or throw in our faces


Wrong, these characters had nothing to them but their race and gender because they were either, pointless, were complete idiots whose only reason they were not called as such on screen is because directors like Rian and JJ were heads deep in their annoying feminist doctrine to say as such, or were just godawful characters that were at best boring and at worst terribly written.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Why?
> 
> For example why would diversity matter in a story like the Last Kingdom? When the only diversity would be in which kings of Nordic peoples are invading which part of England?
> 
> ...


I said it’s important to ‘consider’ diversity; if the end result is that diversity doesn’t matter in the fictional world being crafted, then so be it, but ‘considering’ whether it does is still important.

I never read the Last Kingdom, but for Lord of the Rings; If the idea of ‘diversity’ wasn’t on a Whiteboard for the new series then the writers are terrible. As a huge part of the dynamics of Tolkien’s world are based around diversity; played out through the different races of middle earth. 

Similarly the fact that Star Wars has so many races; makes diversity an even more relevant topic to consider; as one has to consider how this dynamic would play out among the species in the world. In-fact in such a diverse universe it would be extremely unrealistic for diversity issues to never come up (even if they are different then our own).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skaddix (Mar 5, 2020)

Lets talk about diversity in this Star Wars ST.

For One, I think it goes without saying that if you ask me we took a fucking step backwards in diversity in this series compared to what George did.

Rey yes I agree is KKs Overpowered Self Insert but despite being OP as all hell Rey is a fucking mentally ill...fuck Bella has more self respect then this chick who wants to a fuck guy who killed his father in front of her, mindraped her, stood by while a solar system got genocided, didn't do anything while his mother was getting shot, mindraped Poe, almost killed Finn, tried to kill Luke twice, killed all the padawans at the Temple, tried to kill all the resistance...need I go on. So yeah at surface level she is feminist Mary Sue if you look at her motivations she is goddamn retard. She is self insert that exists to bone Crylo.

Finn on the other hand is Jar Jar Binks on steroids. Binks was at least had idiots luck and failed upwards and was an alien even if he was played by a Black guy at least we had some steps of seperation. Finn gets degraded, abused, cucked etc...is a fucking minstrel show janitor who got marketed as a Jedi only to get bait and switched. We went from Lando...I am Han's Best Human Friend, I run a city, I dress fly as fuck, and I took out the second death star to a guy who cannot fly shit or do much of anything. We went from Mace, I am the number 2 Jedi and I beat up fucking Palps to a guy who lost 1 v 1 to unnamed fucking stormtrooper.

Poe went from component elite fighter to drug dealing sexist latino stereotype...Narcos this was not....Rose....do I really need to talk about her lol.

And as for story...I apologize for every complaining about the late stage EU, 9 book long cash grabs from Del Rey...this was so much worse. If I had to choose between overrelying on the Big Three and watching all their dreams turn to ash...give me the former.


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## Skaddix (Mar 5, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> ZOMG GUYZ STAR WUR



As for High Republic...Diversity apparently means White Women, Aliens, White Dudes, Black/Brown Woman and no Men of Color...yeah that is about what I expect from the KK Regime lol.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

Skaddix said:


> Lets talk about diversity in this Star Wars ST.
> 
> For One, I think it goes without saying that if you ask me we took a fucking step backwards in diversity in this series compared to what George did.
> 
> ...


George created Jar Jar a black-face caricature from the minstrel show (saying Finn is worse then that is ridiculous, sorry it just is); so no way we took a step back. With that said I don’t think there were any more steps forward ether.


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## Skaddix (Mar 5, 2020)

Turrin said:


> George created Jar Jar a black-face caricature from the minstrel show; so no way we took a step back. With that said I don’t think there were any more steps forward ether.



Well sure but as I said at least Jar Jar didn't look Black...I am aware he was played by a Black Actor. Trade Federation had heavy Asian Influence...but my point was as I said George at least created a degree of separation by having the decency to make them Aliens. Also Jar Jar had Mace Windu as contrast....

I argue by default if over a decade later we are the same fucking point then its step backward by definition treat it like money with inflation.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 5, 2020)

I always think it should be up to the writer if they want their story to focus on diversity as long as it coincides with their specific vision for their subject matter , to me add in diversity if your passionate about doing so , just don’t do it to appease certain demographics to feeling apart of the story , that way we could get characters whose story you want to invest in , instead of just throwing in characters you don’t really give a shit about just to fill a quota it’s annoying .

The Wire did that with Omar , 

GOT did they with Arya/Cersei/Dany 

Those were characters the writers were heavily invested in and coincided with the vision for the material and it came out beautifully 

Now as backdrops , minor characters that wouldn’t effect the story of course you could have a colorful diverse world but adding in Gay/Trans/Black/White/Hispanic/Female into the main storyline is just weak , now if you’re someone who often feels excluded then that is unfortunate and I sympathize but it’s up to those people excluded to tell their story , to become show runners , directors , screen writers and I do see more diversity there over the last several years .


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## Skaddix (Mar 5, 2020)

I mean GoT isn't a great example...we could have some good well written Brown Characters but Dumb and Dumber nuked the entire Dornish Plot lol. @Eliyua23 no extra non canon editions to source material needed.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

Skaddix said:


> Well sure but as I said at least Jar Jar didn't look Black...I am aware he was played by a Black Actor. Trade Federation had heavy Asian Influence...but my point was as I said George at least created a degree of separation by having the decency to make them Aliens. Also Jar Jar had Mace Windu as contrast....
> 
> I argue by default if over a decade later we are the same fucking point then its step backward by definition treat it like money with inflation.


As I said I would not say Finn is on par with Jar Jar.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 5, 2020)

@Skaddix The Dornish are as Dark as Iberians and based off Spain during the Riegn of North African warlords who descended from Vandals and Alans who converted to Islam or were conquered by Arabs.

Some were Slavic even 


You're thinking of the Braavosi who were basically Brazil but anarcho capitalist and the Summer Islanders.

And the Ibbanese but they're basically another species of hominids so I'm not sure if that counts?



Turrin said:


> I said it’s important to ‘consider’ diversity; if the end result is that diversity doesn’t matter in the fictional world being crafted, then so be it, but ‘considering’ whether it does is still important.



Except that we both know what they really mean by diversity is anti white and anti Latino (well non mestizo Latinos any way and there are a lot of us). And wanting racial diversity and racial drama within humanity as a faction in the SWU makes zero sense when there are 45 years or material now suggesting it was humans United with three other species against everyone else.

A novel dealing with the absolutely horrific abuses of sentient rights the Arkanian species gets  up too. Their rampant racism and the casual murder, genocide,mutilation and conquests they've wrought would be cool.

Except Arkanians were based off the Comanche so I guess a race of Mengelesque mad scientists who look like Native Americans is "problematic". How cowardly.



Turrin said:


> I never read the Last Kingdom, but for Lord of the Rings; If the idea of ‘diversity’ wasn’t on a Whiteboard for the new series then the writers are terrible. As a huge part of the dynamics of Tolkien’s world are based around diversity; played out through the different races of middle earth.]



Of different _species 
_
But for example having black people portray elves is both racist in its pandering and contradictory towards the source material. Making Gandalf a woman is stupid when Galadriel exists and is one of the strongest female characters in fantasy.



Turrin said:


> Similarly the fact that Star Wars has so many races; makes diversity an even more relevant topic to consider; as one has to consider how this dynamic would play out among the species in the world. In-fact in such a diverse universe it would be extremely unrealistic for diversity issues to never come up (even if they are different then our own).



Only in relation to interspecies conflict


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## Skaddix (Mar 5, 2020)

I would say Star Wars and LOTR are in very different positions...

In Star Wars, there shouldn't be Human Racism based on Skin Color. Ergo the diversity as Humans is pretty easy or should be pretty easy....any human can be anything. From Jedi to Sith...From Mando to Smuggler. So basically the Mandolorian... 

As for LOTR, eh I wouldn't expect a gender bent Gandalf...I expect a GoT impact you will have some minor non white humans around probably.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 5, 2020)

Just out of curiosity, was it ever confirmed what Lucas's original vision for the ST was? I had heard that the characters were supposed to be younger, teenagers I believe. I remember reading about a supposed outline that more-or-less meshed with "The Force Awakens", but when Lucas bashed "The Force Awakens" being similar to the original, I figured it was false.

And for what it's worth, as problematic as Jar Jar Binks is... as problematic as Lucas can be, I don't think Binks was intended to be a black face minstrel show. Or if he was, it was an indirect influence (ie, Lucas may have been inspired something that had its roots in a racist caricature). Has Lucas ever cited his influences? 

I glanced at wookiepedia, but I didn't see anything. It was funny reading that apparently there was a cut scene that had Palpatine thanking Jar Jar for granting him the emergency powers to allow him to take over the galaxy... but then I started getting angry when I remembered how much of of the original trilogy relies on the action of... Jar Jar Binks... Sometimes I wonder why we care so much about this universe...


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## Atem (Mar 5, 2020)

Who the fuck deleted my posts?

Undelete them. Those were straight facts.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 5, 2020)

Elric of Melniboné said:


> Who the fuck deleted my posts?
> 
> Undelete them. Those were straight facts.


I mean seriously what rules did they break @Sennin of Hardwork?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 5, 2020)

Trolling with crack theories that amounts to spam, had nothing to do with what was being discussed..


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 5, 2020)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Trolling with crack theories that amounts to spam, had nothing to do with what was being discussed..


Except it did have something to do with the topic and even discounting the first one the second had no "crack theories" to begin with so why did you delete that one?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 5, 2020)

Please don't try to play dumb with me, "Darth Jar Jar" is just an old crack nonsensical theory, everyone knows it. You as well since you were rating his posts with the funny rating.

If that isn't enough for you then his casual use of words like "^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)" and ironic sense of "autistic" was enough for me to make the decision.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 5, 2020)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Please don't try to play dumb with me, "Darth Jar Jar" is just an old crack nonsensical theory, everyone knows it. You as well since you were rating his posts with the funny rating.


So what? He said himself in his second post he was now being serious so even he knew he was joking so why the hell should it be deleted? hell since when is "crack theories" even a bannable offense? Are we not allowed to laugh and talk about funny shit here?


Sennin of Hardwork said:


> If that isn't enough for you then his casual use of words like "^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)" and ironic sense of "autistic" was enough for me to make the decision.


I am autistic and I don't give a damn if he use it ironically or not and if you hate the word along with "^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)" so much just edit it out, it's not like you mods don't do that shit all the time with other words.


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## Atem (Mar 5, 2020)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Please don't try to play dumb with me, "Darth Jar Jar" is just an old crack nonsensical theory, everyone knows it. You as well since you were rating his posts with the funny rating.
> 
> If that isn't enough for you then his casual use of words like "^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)" and ironic sense of "autistic" was enough for me to make the decision.



Bruh, I have had my cock sucked by a guy in a dress before. I get ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) privileges. This is like saying a black person can't say the n-word. Next time I will just say retard, or is that not allowed either? Also, funny how you deleted that post where I called you out on deleting it because I shit talked NGE.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 5, 2020)

... I hope this thread never dies, lol...


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> So what? He said himself in his second post he was now being serious so even he knew he was joking so why the hell should it be deleted? hell since when is "crack theories" even a bannable offense? Are we not allowed to laugh and talk about funny shit here?
> 
> I am autistic and I don't give a damn if he use it ironically or not and if you hate the word along with "^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)" so much just edit it out, it's not like you mods don't do that shit all the time with other words.



They are not a bannable offense because if it was he would already be. If you wanna laugh and talk about funny shit that does not make sense then there are other places for you to do it freely, not here.

You may not care if slurs words are casually thrown around here but I do and his post was already as off-topic and spamming so I chose to do that.



Elric of Melniboné said:


> Bruh, I have had my cock sucked by a guy in a dress before. I get ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) privileges. This is like saying a black person can't say the n-word. Next time I will just say retard, or is that not allowed either? Also, funny how you deleted that post where I called you out on deleting it because I shit talked NGE.



If you wanna continue to say those things fine, I will still act the same and we won't get anywhere. It also had nothing to do with that. Once again, drop it. Please.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 5, 2020)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> If you wanna laugh and talk about funny shit that does not make sense then there are other places for you to do it freely, not here.


Except there are plenty of posts here that are just "funny shit" made by others and they are not deleted so why the hell is Elric's post exempt from this?


Sennin of Hardwork said:


> You may not care if slurs words are casually thrown around here but I do and his post was already as off-topic and spamming so I chose to do that.


So you think you are acting in protection of guys like me and Elric? Because you feel like it makes you some hero? Newflash Sennin, you are acting for no one but yourself when you get antsy like this and just start deleting shit for vague and unexplained reasons. "off topic" it's a fucking Star Wars thread and what Elric said have everything to do with it and since the poster he was replying to mentioned Jar Jar his post about the "Darth Jar Jar" theory is more than on topic. "spamming" He made two posts, one clearly more worded than the other so only the stingy would call that spamming.


Sennin of Hardwork said:


> If you wanna continue to say those things fine, I will still act the same and we won't get anywhere. It also had nothing to do with that. Once again, drop it. Please.


No, if you did not want things to get this far you should not have just gotten trigger happy and mass delete everything Elric posted because it only rattled him up and made him more willing to reply to you. You at least would have some reason for the first shitpost even if it was still flimsy logic, but just deleting the others after that that was clearly you getting over emotional which being a mod is pretty unbecoming of you.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Except there are plenty of posts here that are just "funny shit" made by others and they are not deleted so why the hell is Elric's post exempt from this?
> 
> So you think you are acting in protection of guys like me and Elric? Because you feel like it makes you some hero? Newflash Sennin, you are acting for no one but yourself when you get antsy like this and just start deleting shit for vague and unexplained reasons. "off topic" it's a fucking Star Wars thread and what Elric said have everything to do with it and since the poster he was replying to mentioned Jar Jar his post about the "Darth Jar Jar" theory is more than on topic. "spamming" He made two posts, one clearly more worded than the other so only the stingy would call that spamming.
> 
> No, if you did not want things to get this far you should not have just gotten trigger happy and mass delete everything Elric posted because it only rattled him up and made him more willing to reply to you. You at least would have some reason for the first shitpost even if it was still flimsy logic, but just deleting the others after that that was clearly you getting over emotional which being a mod is pretty unbecoming of you.



There aren't plenty, I took care of them, you have seen the countless posts that I have deleted over the months when things got either too heated or had nothing to do with this thread at all and was just dumb spam. I already explained why I did it.

I never said anything to do with "being a hero", I seriously don't know where you are getting that. I'm afraid you are the one that is antsy about this after I already gave an explanation for my actions about someone else's posts that has nothing to do with any of your own btw. Darth Jar Jar is a parody and had nothing to do with what Turrin meant about the character and it has even been parodied in videos as well.

It would be unbecoming of me to ignore your posts and not explain myself which I have, you simply don't like what I did to the post of someone else and can't accept it. Can we now let it go or do we have to keep this dragging until I have to warn you right here to stop it?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 5, 2020)

Deleting my posts now, won't stop reality from being reality @Sennin of Hardwork

You were wrong then, you're wrong now.



Skaddix said:


> As for LOTR, eh I wouldn't expect a gender bent Gandalf...I expect a GoT impact you will have some minor *non white humans around probably*.



I don't have a problem with that, Dwarves of southern regions get described resembling West Africans in one or two of the HOME Books. I'm specifically talking about Elves though, who get an intense amount of focus. The extent of their diversity is that some were silver haired, some were black haired and some were blonds 

Also one was nine and a half feet tall. We know what every elf "subspecies" looks like..We know the extent of their variety.

I suppose you could argue the Avari could be Dark skinned Tolkien hints at them being very different from other elves..but given what the Avari represent it seems like it would piss a lot of people off to do that.




Sennin of Hardwork said:


> You may not care if slurs words are casually thrown around here but I do and his post was already as off-topic and spamming so I chose to do that.
> .



Autist isn't a racial slur, it's invective.

There's a fucking difference between the two jesus christ


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 6, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Deleting my posts now, won't stop reality from being reality @Sennin of Hardwork
> 
> You were wrong then, you're wrong now.
> 
> ...



You were fanning the flames with your post and baiting with comments like "learned your lesson" and "panic attack". I was wrong before? Yes I admitted it to you and owned up to it, but what you posted was also wrong so I acted.

I didn't meant that but ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) is, that was my point. Now let's take five.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Mar 6, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Remember how in the EU it was established Palpatine's most ardent supporters on Naboo were black guys



Not strange at all for them to support him.
He was working for the dark side after all.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 6, 2020)

Skaddix said:


> I mean GoT isn't a great example...we could have some good well written Brown Characters but Dumb and Dumber nuked the entire Dornish Plot lol. @Eliyua23 no extra non canon editions to source material needed.



Now Dorne was shit but then again Red Viper was one of the best characters in the entire series , and also creating strong female characters(Heroine/villain)were done well , Rey female heroine was done poorly it was no clear vision just throwing in a strong woman , the only character they really had somewhat of a vision for was Kylo Ren .


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## Pilaf (Mar 6, 2020)

Didney Stor Wor is so diverse that all the major alien races we knew and loved from the old canon got either outright killed off and shat on like Ackbar or cucked and pushed off screen for the most part like Chewie in favor of bland, gormless human protags.

dIvErSiTy


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## Skaddix (Mar 6, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Didney Stor Wor is so diverse that all the major alien races we knew and loved from the old canon got either outright killed off and shat on like Ackbar or cucked and pushed off screen for the most part like Chewie in favor of bland, gormless human protags.
> 
> dIvErSiTy



That seems more Old Characters in general...Luke, Han, Leia, Lando and Palps were hardly immune from getting killed, shat on and pushed offscreen.


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

I love the idea of 脑死亡迟缓 like catalyst defending this mess of a movie when it has been confirmed that palpatine’s body was a clone. And that Rey is the daughter of one of palpatine’s clones, meaning Rey is not only palpatine’s daughter, and granddaughter, but she also made out with palpatine’s force grandson as it is revealed that palpatine created anakin.


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

They even stole from Jedi prince lmfao


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

I don't mind the idea that Palpatine in ROS was a clone, as I thought all of that imagery in the beginning made that kind of obvious... although Snoke being a failed one continues to befuddle me... But Rey's dad being a failed clone is pretty stupid.


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

For decades dark empire has been one of the most controversial Eu material to see daylight, specifically because George decided to bring palpatine back. It’s very telling that most people who hated it in dark empire are ok with it now, it speaks volumes about the coomer mindset of Star Wars fans that truly have no principles.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

Kaaant said:


> For decades dark empire has been one of the most controversial Eu material to see daylight, specifically because George decided to bring palpatine back. It’s very telling that most people who hated it in dark empire are ok with it now, it speaks volumes about the coomer mindset of Star Wars fans that truly have no principles.



To be fair, this is an audience whose demographic is always evolving. Just look at how people view the Ewoks or the prequels now. The fans of today are wildly different than the ones of my generation, who I assume were different from the first generation of fans. 

What was controversial back then might not seem so controversial to younger audiences, who grew up with those creative decisions.


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

It’s literally the same people saying dark empire was shit for brining him back, defending it in nine. I saw it just a few days ago


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## Pilaf (Mar 6, 2020)




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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

Kaaant said:


> It’s literally the same people saying dark empire was shit for brining him back, defending it in nine. I saw it just a few days ago



And people who were lamenting that George Lucas ruined the franchise are now desperately wanting him to take it back, now putting him on a pedestal that they hadn't prior. It's just how people are. They'll subconsciously rewrite history to serve whatever opinion they have at the moment. 

Every fandom does it to varying levels.


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

Because people didn’t realise how bad things would be 

Doesn’t change what I said.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

Kaaant said:


> Because people didn’t realise how bad things would be
> 
> Doesn’t change what I said.



Except it's not that they're saying its gotten worse, they're practically changing their opinions on past controversies... sort of like now with Palpatine, apparently. 

Of course, I thought it was common knowledge that the Star Wars fandom have no principles. It's why George Lucas berates autograph seekers.


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## Pilaf (Mar 6, 2020)

This isn't the same as the prequel hate and you can't even pretend it is. The prequels is like when grandad goes a bit senile and keeps calling your fiance' by a racial slur when you come to visit, but he's your grandad and did a lot for you and you take the good with the bad. This is more like if your grandad died and someone dug up his corpse and paraded it around and told you that you have no right to complain about it.


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 6, 2020)

Like if it was stupid then doesn’t change the fact that it’s stupid now Especially far more than it was before 
It’s just making a idiotic choice from the past look like a Masterpiece compared to the shit ur making


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> This isn't the same as the prequel hate and you can't even pretend it is. The prequels is like when grandad goes a bit senile and keeps calling your fiance' by a racial slur when you come to visit, but he's your grandad and did a lot for you and you take the good with the bad. This is more like if your grandad died and someone dug up his corpse and paraded it around and told you that you have no right to complain about it.



Was this directed towards me? Cause it doesn't really matter if the Disney Wars hate was more intense than the prequel hate or the special edition hate, etc. Being worse does not make bad... good...


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 6, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Being worse does not make bad... good...


No one is saying that bruh as most of us especially @Kaaant is saying while Decision A was stupid and got shitted on for it, there were efforts to try to make it coherent where with Disney it’s just none of it whatsoever along with folks defending it despite it being far more retarded and incoherent


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> No one is saying that bruh as most of us especially @Kaaant is saying while Decision A was stupid and got shitted on for it, there were efforts to try to make it coherent where with Disney it’s just none of it whatsoever along with folks defending it despite it being far more retarded and incoherent



I wasn't really arguing against what he said. I even kind of agree with his claim about the fandom. But my point is that people will often change their minds based on them getting older and processing new information, different media, etc... So hating on Palpatine's resurrection in the EU and liking it in the NT isn't that big of a deal.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

Beyond Star Wars, look at John Carpenter's "The Thing". It was reviled upon release, even to the extent that it was the most 'hated film of the decade', a complete disgrace to the film it was a remake of. 

But these days, it's often regarded as one of the best horror films ever made. Same goes with "The Shining". People change their perspectives all the time.


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

The ST is objectively bad. That’s not going to change in ten years. It is bad, period. The prequels, while heavily flawed have redeeming aspects to them. ST does not.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

Kaaant said:


> The ST is objectively bad. That’s not going to change in ten years. It is bad, period. *The prequels, while heavily flawed have redeeming aspects to them*. ST does not.



... Nah...


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

Not an argument.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

m8 the entire reason many people even saw nine was because it was piggybacking off prequel memes and nostalgia. 

Nice one


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

And for the record I actually liked Palp clone in DE. You can have your reasons for not liking it, but the well known reasons for hating them in DE are even more apparent in 9. 

Palp coming back was controversial because A: they believed it negates Vader dying for Luke, and B, it undoes the prophecy that anakin would destroy palpatine. 

I do not agree, though understand the issue. In the Eu, Vader dies to save his son - in either canon this happens. Palpatine dies and comes back. In the Eu, when palpatine returns, he’s a Jedi master restoring the Jedi order, and he’s powerful enough to eventually defeat palpatine, but he struggles heavily, he loses his love interest in the process. 

Vader’s sacrifice still meant something, and palpatine not only died but lost his power. And it was the catalyst (not the retard) for Luke becoming the greatest Jedi ever. In Disney, Vader dies, so his son becomes a complete and utter loser, fails to restore the Jedi, and fails to realise palpatine was still around the whole time. Fails his nephew, his sister, his friends; the whole galaxy. 

And ultimately kills himself doing really nothing. 

With the prophecy? Didn’t even exist circa dark empire’s release in 1991. And ultimately, both skywalkers, and even Leia herself, defeated palpatine.  The DU had the gift of hindsight to not go down this path, and yet it did it anyway, with an inferior version, and people celebrate it.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 6, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Beyond Star Wars, look at John Carpenter's "The Thing". It was reviled upon release, even to the extent that it was the most 'hated film of the decade', a complete disgrace to the film it was a remake of.
> 
> But these days, it's often regarded as one of the best horror films ever made. Same goes with "The Shining". People change their perspectives all the time.



You know, I did a pretty detailed rundown of why the sequel trilogy shall go down in history as the trilogy that broke cinema for how awful and subpar it is. I did it about a hundred pages back, using the very same lighting and leitmotif that made The Thing a timeless classic..in its own right.

And specifically..why the ST will never measure up..was the absolute lack of both..and gravitas


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

Palpatine comes back so his incestuous grandkids can kill him

Amazing


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## Pilaf (Mar 6, 2020)

It's okay thought, because Karen's illiterate anti-vax daughter has a sTrOnG wHaMmEn character to look up to, because there was never any source material, and never a single female in a star wars movie ever before Rey Palpatine came and wore the same clothes for three movies and could magically do all the things.


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> @Skaddix The Dornish are as Dark as Iberians and based off Spain during the Riegn of North African warlords who descended from Vandals and Alans who converted to Islam or were conquered by Arabs.
> 
> Some were Slavic even
> 
> ...


I don’t see any Anti-White or Anti-Latino sentiment in any of the Sequel movies let alone from these new writers who have yet to put pen to page on a single high republic novel at the time of the white boarding.

I fail to see the relevance of your Lord of the Rings examples because that’s not what happened in Star Wars; no made up a Black Man to be Yoda race or recast Luke as a woman. So I don’t get your point...

Yes and diversity among the species is something to ‘consider’. As well as maybe making a main character or two Black, Asian, Latino, etc....


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

Kaaant said:


> m8 the entire reason many people even saw nine was because it was piggybacking off prequel memes and nostalgia.
> 
> Nice one



... And? There's a thousand reasons to watch a movie. I'm not saying the prequels don't have fans. 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> You know, I did a pretty detailed rundown of why the sequel trilogy shall go down in history as the trilogy that broke cinema for how awful and subpar it is. I did it about a hundred pages back, using the very same lighting and leitmotif that made The Thing a timeless classic..in its own right.
> 
> And specifically..why the ST will never measure up..was the absolute lack of both..and gravitas



Eh, people care more about the MCU these days.


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> And? There's a thousand reasons to watch a movie. I'm not saying the prequels don't have fans.



Because the prequels left a lasting positive impression just through palpatine that people were willing to come back after 7/8 and give nine a shot. Are you really going to tell me you don’t think palpatine was easily the best thing about the prequels? And specifically, are you telling me you don’t think his involvement was good?


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

Got me like


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

Kaaant said:


> Because the prequels left a lasting positive impression just through palpatine that people were willing to come back after 7/8 and give nine a shot. Are you really going to tell me you don’t think palpatine was easily the best thing about the prequels? And specifically, are you telling me you don’t think his involvement was good?



No, I agree that Palpatine was the best thing about the prequels.

Honestly, I was mostly being facetious about them not having any redeeming values. I think the music was generally great and Lucas deserves credit for trying to innovate, even if those innovations sometimes lead to problematic creative decisions. Lucas also had a more concise vision for a trilogy. I just think throwing around terms like 'objectively bad' in every way is inherently flawed.

So you think the direction they took the character of Luke Skywalker sucked, right? Do you also think Mark Hamill's performance was bad?


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## Kaaant (Mar 6, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> So you think the direction they took the character of Luke Skywalker sucked, right? Do you also think Mark Hamill's performance was bad?



I don’t. But I would hardly call it a redeeming quality.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

For the record, I can't really argue with conviction that the sequel trilogy will be fondly remembered over time. I defended "The Last Jedi" with passion because, as I've said in the past, it's the only Star Wars movie I've seen since the OT where I didn't know what would happen next. I watch a lot of movies, recognize all the formulas, cliches, etc... so that's kind of a refreshing feeling to me. 

But "Rise of Skywalker" kind of... deflated me... I guess? It's a pretty mediocre movie and even worse, I have to acknowledge that "The Last Jedi" is responsible for a lot of its problems, making me wonder if even I'll turn on it over time. When people watch the trilogy 10 years from now, the lack of cohesive (or even thematic) vision probably will stand out a lot more, while the CGI will age as all CGI does.

But I still think the prequels have worse acting, dialogue and pacing.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 6, 2020)

Why the hell would anyone even compare Luke's treatment in the ST to Plapatine's role in the PT in the first place? The latter elevated the character from a traditional evil ruler to being a full on Machiavellian villain and made his control over the galaxy in the OT even more impressive from how he orchestrated his rise to dominance, while the former completely destroyed every lasting legacy and dignity he had while having it usurped by a bland copycat character.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Why the hell would anyone even compare Luke's treatment in the ST to Plapatine's role in the PT in the first place? The latter elevated the character from a traditional evil ruler to being a full on Machiavellian villain and made his control over the galaxy in the OT even more impressive from how he orchestrated his rise to dominance, while the former completely destroyed every lasting legacy and dignity he had while having it usurped by a bland copycat character.



I wasn't doing that. I agreed with him on Palpatine. I only brought up Luke to challenge his 'objectively bad in every way' statement, although he rightfully pointed out that it doesn't have to be a redeeming quality...

Even if that does sort of prove my point that 'objectively bad in every way' is a flawed statement, as what is redeemable or not will always be subjective.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 6, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I wasn't doing that. I agreed with him on Palpatine. I only brought up Luke to challenge his 'objectively bad in every way' statement, although he rightfully pointed out that it doesn't have to be a redeeming quality...


Which it isn't because Mark's acting ability was hampered by his character being regulated to a whiny miserable old man that not even he could make a redeemable quality when the people in charge butchered the character so immensely so Kaant was spot on there.


MartialHorror said:


> Even if that does sort of prove my point that 'objectively bad in every way' is a flawed statement, as what is redeemable or not will always be subjective.


Nah, it's an accurate statement when discussing the Sequel trilogy.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Which it isn't because Mark's acting ability was hampered by his character being regulated to a whiny miserable old man that not even he could make a redeemable quality when the people in charge butchered the character so immensely so Kaant was spot on there.
> 
> Nah, it's an accurate statement when discussing the Sequel trilogy.



That's not really how acting works, but OK.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 6, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> That's not really how acting works, but OK.


Uh yes it does. When a role is that badly directed and written there is nothing an actor can do to salvage it.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 6, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Uh yes it does. When a role is that badly directed and written there is nothing an actor can do to salvage it.



It's funny how this is more-or-less how I feel about the acting in the prequels (ie, being given no personality and looking like they have no idea what they're responding too), but acting is ultimately just conveying emotion in a convincing way. Directing and writing obviously play a role in that, but it's not what defines the craft. 

Props to you though for actually criticizing Mark Hamill's acting though. I don't think I've heard any of the detractors explicitly do that.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 6, 2020)

Hamil hasn't been a screen actor in any serious capacity in almost three decades. He has become so accustomed to voice acting that it he cant really do more than chew scenery or be subdued to the point of being confused for a coma patient.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 6, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> It's funny how this is more-or-less how I feel about the acting in the prequels


So you are comparing Luke's treatment with Palpatine in the end when it comes to acting despite denying it beforehand. Pretty dumb to be honest since nothing Ian had to work with was anywhere near as bad as what Hamil went through.


MartialHorror said:


> IProps to you though for actually criticizing Mark Hamill's acting though. I don't think I've heard any of the detractors explicitly do that.


Since fucking when? People beforehand had their gripes with the material Mark had to work with which did lead to his acting suffering and criticized for how Grumpy and unlikable his character was.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 7, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> So you are comparing Luke's treatment with Palpatine in the end when it comes to acting despite denying it beforehand. Pretty dumb to be honest since nothing Ian had to work with was anywhere near as bad as what Hamil went through.
> 
> Since fucking when? People beforehand had their gripes with the material Mark had to work with which did lead to his acting suffering and criticized for how Grumpy and unlikable his character was.



Eh? You keep trying to make that connection between Luke and Palpatine. There were more actors in the prequels than just the guy who played Palpatine. 

Having gripes with the direction of a character is not the same as criticizing a performance.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 7, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Eh? You keep trying to make that connection between Luke and Palpatine.


Mark's performance was the one you brought up firsthand when Kaant brought up Palpatine for the prequels so of course I am going to bring that up.


MartialHorror said:


> There were more actors in the prequels than just the guy who played Palpatine.


Same for the sequels having more actors than just Mark which had even worse renditions due to the roles being written and directed far worse.


MartialHorror said:


> Having gripes with the direction of a character is not the same as criticizing a performance.


Wrong it is. It does not matter how good the actor is if the role he is playing is directed, written, and restrictive of him not allowing him to make it work.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 7, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Mark's performance was the one you brought up firsthand when Kaant brought up Palpatine for the prequels so of course I am going to bring that up.



Oi, I already explained myself on this and moved on.



> Same for the sequels having more actors than just Mark which had even worse renditions due to the roles being written and directed far worse.



And? I said the acting in the prequels sucked. Palpatine was the exception.



> Wrong it is. It does not matter how good the actor is if the role he is playing is directed, written, and restrictive of him not allowing him to make it work.



OK, but there are a lot of actors who would disagree with you... and arguably an entire genre or two that does as well.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 7, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Oi, I already explained myself on this and moved on.


Than bring up another example than since those two were the only ones brought up.


MartialHorror said:


> And? I said the acting in the prequels sucked. Palpatine was the exception.


Which itself is bull since Ewan McGregor, Frank Oz, and Christopher Lee were good in their roles and the rest were forgettable rather than shit so Ian being the best did not make him the only one that did not suck.


MartialHorror said:


> OK, but there are a lot of actors who would disagree with you... and arguably an entire genre or two that does as well.


Argument from Authority is a lousy way to debate, especially when you have no points of your own to go along with it. The Sequels having so many good actors and still not managing to save itself or make their characters memorable only goes to show writing and direction do matter when it comes to acting ability.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 7, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Than bring up another example than since those two were the only ones brought up.
> 
> Which itself is bull since Ewan McGregor, Frank Oz, and Christopher Lee were good in their roles and the rest were forgettable rather than shit so Ian being the best did not make him the only one that did not suck.



Christopher Lee was good, although he plays that kind of role so often that I don't think I've ever seen him do bad. McGregor got better with each movie but... and I know a lot of people don't like it when I say such things... even though he's a good fit for the role, I didn't think his turn in Obi Wan was one of his better performances. One scene has him look like he's struggling not to laugh. 

Yoda is so boring in the prequels. He's become entirely an exposition dumper. I mean, Oz's performance is fine and all, but Oz isn't given anything to do. While I'm at it, I found Samuel Jackson to be dull in the prequels. Liam Neeson, who's usually one of my favorite actors, looks like he isn't sure what he's reacting to. I've always blamed the awkward performances on that level of green screens and CGI being relatively new at the time, so the actors simply weren't used to it. Oddly, even though Jake Lloyd is pretty bad, I never minded him because he at least looks like he's having fun. Everyone else looks miserable -- and if much of the cast is to be believed, were miserable. 



> Argument from Authority is a lousy way to debate, especially when you have no points of your own to go along with it. The Sequels having so many good actors and still not managing to save itself or make their characters memorable only goes to show writing and direction do matter when it comes to acting ability.



What else can I say there? Every actor is obviously different. George C. Scott, Marlon Brando and Meryl Streep allegedly refuse to take direction. John Leguizamo and Robin Williams were notorious for ignoring the scripts and doing their own thing. Comedies often don't have completed scripts. Italian productions from the 1960's through the 1980's were often filmed with everyone doing their own native languages, with many instances of the director not knowing how to speak much English, with the only direction actors receiving being along the lines of "Walk over there". Yet this didn't seem to hamper Clint Eastwood, Christopher Lee, Charles Bronson, Henry Fonda or the multitude of fine actors who worked overseas.

Once again, I'm not saying that direction or writing is insignificant when it comes to acting. It's often very important, but a bad performance is a bad performance. You can't only blame the writer and director. If Mark Hamill's acting was bad, then Mark Hamill's acting was just bad.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 7, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Christopher Lee was good, although he plays that kind of role so often that I don't think I've ever seen him do bad.


So already you admit your comment on Ian being the exception is wrong, okay.


MartialHorror said:


> McGregor got better with each movie but... and I know a lot of people don't like it when I say such things... even though he's a good fit for the role, I didn't think his turn in Obi Wan was one of his better performances. One scene has him look like he's struggling not to laugh.


Yeah yeah the younglings line is well known for being hard for Ewen to say with a straight face, it doesn't mean much because it is just one line where as he was solid for the rest of the movies anyway.


MartialHorror said:


> Yoda is so boring in the prequels. He's become entirely an exposition dumper. I mean, Oz's performance is fine and all, but Oz isn't given anything to do.


His "fear leads to" and "begun the Clone Wars has" lines are memorable for being anything but bad and the whole scene he has with Anakin telling him about his nightmares in episode 3 are legitimately well done and interesting so I disagree completely and when he was boring he was never at least bad or annoying and his character was anything but being an exposition dump like Maz was in the Sequels.


MartialHorror said:


> While I'm at it, I found Samuel Jackson to be dull in the prequels.


Yeah no argument against that but he was never outright bad to the point he was dis-likable* (*outside of the moments where his character was meant to be to show the flaws of the Jedi).


MartialHorror said:


> Neeson, who's usually one of my favorite actors, looks like he isn't sure what he's reacting to.


Liam's problem was having too much screen time with CGI characters like Jar-Jar or Waddo or whatever due which was him clearly being uncomfortable talking to no one really there but despite the common assumption his character was boring he actually had some good moments that clearly showed off an assertive and joking attitude like his "there's always a bigger fish" and his rebuff of Padme and Obi-Wan's opinions at times to continue on with his goals. Yeah he clearly did not give his best and it could have been done better but the role was no where near his worst and he had his moments so it overall was okay.


MartialHorror said:


> Oddly, even though Jake Lloyd is pretty bad, I never minded him because he at least looks like he's having fun. Everyone else looks miserable -- and if much of the cast is to be believed, were miserable.


No they looked serious which can be blamed on Lucas wanting his characters to act as such when he should have done better by having them be more varied in the emotions they can show. Though it's not like they were like that a 100% of the time as we have some moments where Ewen is allowed to smile and crack some jokes and Liam has his moments where he is showing off his annoyance at Jar Jar, but they are few and far between.


MartialHorror said:


> What else can I say there? Every actor is obviously different. George C. Scott, Marlon Brando and Meryl Streep allegedly refuse to take direction.


Which means they did their own shit aka "improvised" which many of the times helped them in their roles and due to them already being veterans at their talent it worked most of the time. Something the new cast on the ST suffered from when it came to the crappy direction or from them being allowed to ad lib without any of the talent to pull it off (such as the many cases in TFA where people were cracking unfunny jokes when the situation did not call for it) or the old cast either not giving a shit (Ford) or being given terrible material to work with(Hamill).


MartialHorror said:


> John Leguizamo and Robin Williams were notorious for ignoring the scripts and doing their own thing.


Which is suppose to argue against my point on bad direction and material harming an actor's effort how?


MartialHorror said:


> Comedies often don't have completed scripts. Italian productions from the 1960's through the 1980's were often filmed with everyone doing their own native languages, with many instances of the director not knowing how to speak much English, with the only direction actors receiving being along the lines of "Walk over there".


Which goes to show the said actors who did well in spite of those light directions which could only mean they had the talent to pull it off and whatever material they had was not impossible to work with


MartialHorror said:


> Yet this didn't seem to hamper Clint Eastwood, Christopher Lee, Charles Bronson, Henry Fonda or the multitude of fine actors who worked overseas.


Well gee maybe because those guys were fucking legends when it came to acting and the stuff they worked with was not so bad as to completely ruin their role for the film.


MartialHorror said:


> Once again, I'm not saying that direction or writing is insignificant when it comes to acting.


Except in the very next sentence after this you say the opposite and imply Hamill himself is responsible for the role being poor which is nonsense as it is all clearly the character's problem as he was written in TLJ that brought his performance down.


MartialHorror said:


> It's often very important, but a bad performance is a bad performance. You can't only blame the writer and director. If Mark Hamill's acting was bad, then Mark Hamill's acting was just bad.


Nope. Rian himself is solely responsible for directing Hamill to have Luke be a grumpy whiny pathetic old hobo. He made it clear he hated what they did to his character and of course that affected his acting on film but if you think he could not have done better than you are just deluded. Hell from the few scenes I saw he had in ROS online he was fine even when the film itself was hot garbage because for once he was allowed to act like Luke for a few minutes even if it was too little too late because he already died to have Rey take away all his accomplishments.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 7, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> So already you admit your comment on Ian being the exception is wrong, okay.
> 
> Yeah yeah the younglings line is well known for being hard for Ewen to say with a straight face, it doesn't mean much because it is just one line where as he was solid for the rest of the movies anyway.
> 
> ...



You know what, NostalgiaFan, I'm actually going to concede on this one. I don't necessarily agree, but you brought good points that I can't really counter. I'd forgotten about those lines from Yoda, but now that you remind me, yeah they were pretty good. A lot of that has to do with me preferring his portrayal in the OT. You're also right that Ewan's at his best when bantering with Anakin. Makes me wish there was more of that. 



> Which means they did their own shit aka "improvised" which many of the times helped them in their roles and due to them already being veterans at their talent it worked most of the time. Something the new cast on the ST suffered from when it came to the crappy direction or from them being allowed to ad lib without any of the talent to pull it off (such as the many cases in TFA where people were cracking unfunny jokes when the situation did not call for it) or the old cast either not giving a shit (Ford) or being given terrible material to work with(Hamill).



While I do agree that some of the ab libbing was pretty bad (especially with Finn 'flirting' with Rey), I never agreed with the claims that Ford phoned it in... or if that was him phoning it in, then I tremble at the thought of what he's been doing for the better part of two decades... and I think Hamill's performance was exceptional. 



> Which is suppose to argue against my point on bad direction and material harming an actor's effort how?
> 
> Which goes to show the said actors who did well in spite of those light directions which could only mean they had the talent to pull it off and whatever material they had was not impossible to work with
> 
> ...



So are you saying Hamill doesn't have 'the talent to pull it off' then? I wasn't implying anything either, as I flat out disagree with you on Hamill's performance. I thought he did very good. I get why you -- and much of the fandom -- hates what they do to Luke, but I just don't see that as a matter of acting. Acting is ultimately... can he convincingly play a grumpy, whiny, pathetic old hobo? That isn't the entirety of his performance either, as he returns to form for the finale. It's a character arc, which is why he acts that way in ROS.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 7, 2020)

On another note, I just watched "Vampire Circus (1972)", which has David Prowse play a Strongman prior to him becoming Darth Vader. I don't know if I've ever seen him before outside of the Vader costume. He was ripped during his prime. He doesn't speak though, although his body language and facial expressions were pretty menacing.


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## Pilaf (Mar 8, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## U mad bro (Mar 8, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Hamil hasn't been a screen actor in any serious capacity in almost three decades. He has become so accustomed to voice acting that it he cant really do more than chew scenery or be subdued to the point of being confused for a coma patient.


I mean he is a legendary voice actor at this point. To the point that what he mainly he eats off of. Luke Skywalker is one of those roles where you get stuck as that role. Limiting the roles you can get. Harrison Ford had that action hero image. So he could easily slip off into different directions. So he Hamil took the backstreet. Along that street he became the greatest Joker ever Not his fault they diminished his role with nonsense in this trilogy. In fact if given the chance to act like the real Luke skywalker he would have shined.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 8, 2020)

Has anyone actually seen Mark Hamill in a movie outside of Star Wars? Outside of his voice acting career, that is?

I've only seen (not counting his post-Force Awakens film career revival) 

-- Sleepwalkers: I remember quite a bit about this movie (it's weird), but I don't remember Mark Hamill actually being in it. It seems to have been some sort of cameo. 

-- The Guyver: I loved this movie as a kid, although when I saw it again many years later, it's... definitely not great... Hamill is in a supporting role and seemed like he was phoning it in. 

-- Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back

-- Sushi Girl: He was great in this, very over-the-top. The movie is kind of like a cross between Tarantino and Guy Ritchie. You'll either find it annoying or entertaining.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 8, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> While I do agree that some of the ab libbing was pretty bad (especially with Finn 'flirting' with Rey), I never agreed with the claims that Ford phoned it in... or if that was him phoning it in, then I tremble at the thought of what he's been doing for the better part of two decades... and I think Hamill's performance was exceptional.


Ford's whole performance was just forgettable and not even as good as his role in ROTJ, where he also phoned it in. 


MartialHorror said:


> So are you saying Hamill doesn't have 'the talent to pull it off' then?


I doubt anyone had the talent to pull off making such a godawful role good when both writing and direction are that against you. Hamill literately had to remind Rain that Luke should remember who C3P0 was because the guy did not give a shit about the character. Only if Hamill was allowed to freely fix things that he thought of how the character should act could have saved something from the role being a dumpster fire but Rian and KK kept him down.


MartialHorror said:


> I wasn't implying anything either, as I flat out disagree with you on Hamill's performance. I thought he did very good. I get why you -- and much of the fandom -- hates what they do to Luke, but I just don't see that as a matter of acting.


His acting was wallowing around like a sad old hobo and looking as pathetic as possible while delivering cringey lines like "laser sword"  that sound like they came out of a crappy trumblr post and not from a guy who has been with Star Wars from the start. Calling that good or exceptional is deluded.


MartialHorror said:


> Acting is ultimately... can he convincingly play a grumpy, whiny, pathetic old hobo?


Remember when you said how most of the cast from TPM looked miserable? That's all I see from Hamill in TLJ, and with how he felt about the role in real life I can say that is more accurately applied to him. Guy is being forced to deliver such painful lines while having his character portrayed in such a bad light to bring him down that all I see is someone clearly struggling to not walk off set if he stays on for too long.


MartialHorror said:


> That isn't the entirety of his performance either, as he returns to form for the finale. It's a character arc, which is why he acts that way in ROS.


Wrong, there was no character arc, Jar Jar purposely tried to retcon anything Rian did because the two clearly did not get along as shown by their blatant disregard for the other's film. Luke is only acting like Luke in ROS because Jar Jar does not care to ruin the characters image now that he is dead which is why Luke finally acts like himself for a few minutes instead of the sardonic asshole he was in TLJ.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 8, 2020)

U mad bro said:


> I mean he is a legendary voice actor at this point. To the point that what he mainly he eats off of. Luke Skywalker is one of those roles where you get stuck as that role. Limiting the roles you can get. Harrison Ford had that action hero image. So he could easily slip off into different directions. So he Hamil took the backstreet. Along that street he became the greatest Joker ever Not his fault they diminished his role with nonsense in this trilogy. In fact if given the chance to act like the real Luke skywalker he would have shined.



Pretty much. I certainly wasnt criticizing him for being the American Tim Curry either. Just that his instincts were screwy because well, he hadn't done anything on that scale outside of voice acting.

Compare it with the Dark Crystal show on Netflix which was.ass except whenever the Scientist (voiced by Hamil) or the Chamberlain (voiced by Simon Pegg) were on screen. Fuckers carried the entire series and stole whatever scenes they were in.

Give Hamil more of the EU material to work off of and the kind of over the top bravado he can put out on a mic would have stolen the whole damn movie whenever he was on screen. Like you said, able to actually be Luke and all.

Hell if they wanted Luke to act like an anti Yoda and be all hard assed and a merciless teacher as a sort of in universe shitpost until his students mellow out and are able to sniff through the BS? Knightfall.

That show is trash but Hamil plays a Knight Trmplar version of R Lee Ermy and it's the saving grace of the show.


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## Pilaf (Mar 8, 2020)




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## Vault (Mar 8, 2020)




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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 8, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Hell if they wanted Luke to act like an anti Yoda and be all hard assed and a merciless teacher as a sort of in universe shitpost until his students mellow out and are able to sniff through the BS? Knightfall.
> 
> That show is trash but Hamil plays a Knight Trmplar version of R Lee Ermy and it's the saving grace of the show.


I only saw a few minutes of that and thought it looked dumb af but Hamill as gruff, war hardened, no bullshit having Templar knight was one of the few things I was looking forward to. Does he at least play a major role?


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## U mad bro (Mar 8, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Pretty much. I certainly wasnt criticizing him for being the American Tim Curry either. Just that his instincts were screwy because well, he hadn't done anything on that scale outside of voice acting.
> 
> Compare it with the Dark Crystal show on Netflix which was.ass except whenever the Scientist (voiced by Hamil) or the Chamberlain (voiced by Simon Pegg) were on screen. Fuckers carried the entire series and stole whatever scenes they were in.
> 
> ...


I know you wasn’t talking down on him. I was just saying he was pretty much got stuck after Star Wars in the backside of acting. I just feel that he loved the role of Luke. He was pretty much a fan of Star Wars himself. In fact his acting to me wasn’t the problem. It was the way they handled the character. The second movie nuked the character.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 8, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Ford's whole performance was just forgettable and not even as good as his role in ROTJ, where he also phoned it in.
> 
> I doubt anyone had the talent to pull off making such a godawful role good when both writing and direction are that against you. Hamill literately had to remind Rain that Luke should remember who C3P0 was because the guy did not give a shit about the character. Only if Hamill was allowed to freely fix things that he thought of how the character should act could have saved something from the role being a dumpster fire but Rian and KK kept him down.
> 
> ...



We'll just have to disagree there. 


Er... That's random...


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## MartialHorror (Mar 9, 2020)

Jesus, Midnight's  Edge released another "decline of Star Wars" video... and it's mixed with yet another 'decline of Star Trek' video...

Anyone watch it? Is there anything that they haven't already said fifty times before?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 9, 2020)

Im waiting until you guys get tired and this thread dies


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## ClandestineSchemer (Mar 9, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Im waiting until you guys get tired and this thread dies



Like Palpatine this thread will never truly die.


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## Unicornsilovethem (Mar 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Acting like diversity is a bad thing lol


I don't know anyone who thinks or acts like diversity is a bad thing.

But diversity for diversity's sake is a bad thing.


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2020)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> I don't know anyone who thinks or acts like diversity is a bad thing.
> 
> But diversity for diversity's sake is a bad thing.


Sure; and you have divined that this is the intend from a whiteboard how

Reactions: Like 1


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## Unicornsilovethem (Mar 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Sure; and you have divined that this is the intend from a whiteboard how


I haven't. I'm just saying that that's the point people are making.


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2020)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> I haven't. I'm just saying that that's the point people are making.


And the point I’m making is these people aren’t mind readers; therefore they have no point


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## Unicornsilovethem (Mar 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> And the point I’m making is these people aren’t mind readers; therefore they have no point


That was absolutely not the point you were making.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 10, 2020)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> That was absolutely not the point you were making.


The only point he has is making an ass of himself.


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2020)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> That was absolutely not the point you were making.


Yes it is....


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## Unicornsilovethem (Mar 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes it is....


What you said: "Acting like diversity is a bad thing lol"
What you supposedly wanted to say: "these people aren’t mind readers; therefore they have no point"

Those two statements have nothing to do with each other.


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2020)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> What you said: "Acting like diversity is a bad thing lol"
> What you supposedly wanted to say: "these people aren’t mind readers; therefore they have no point"
> 
> Those two statements have nothing to do with each other.


They are acting like diversity is a bad thing because they believe they can read the minds of the people who wrote diversity on a whiteboard and there intent; let’s not play coy


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## Unicornsilovethem (Mar 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> They are acting like diversity is a bad thing because they believe they can read the minds of the people who wrote diversity on a whiteboard and there intent; let’s not play coy


Right, let's not play coy.

They are *not* acting that diversity is a bad thing. They are acting like diversity for diversity's sake is a bad thing.

That's what I said from the start, and it's the opposite of what you said in the post I quoted.


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2020)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> Right, let's not play coy.
> 
> They are *not* acting that diversity is a bad thing. They are acting like diversity for diversity's sake is a bad thing.
> 
> That's what I said from the start, and it's the opposite of what you said in the post I quoted.


Yes and where did they get the idea that having the word ‘diversity’ on a whiteboard = ‘diversity for diversity sake’ other then they mind reading powers?


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## Unicornsilovethem (Mar 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes and where did they get the idea that having the word ‘diversity’ on a whiteboard = ‘diversity for diversity sake’ other then they mind reading powers?


You're going to have to ask "them" that. I don't know. I'm not the one to draw that conclusion and I don't represent anyone who may have done so.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Mar 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes and where did they get the idea that having the word ‘diversity’ on a whiteboard = ‘diversity for diversity sake’ other then they mind reading powers?



Because they have seen the newest trilogy.


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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 10, 2020)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> You're going to have to ask "them" that. I don't know. I'm not the one to draw that conclusion and I don't represent anyone who may have done so.


We actually did give him our answers and all turrin had done is stick his fingers in his ears and ignore the fact the franchise for a while now has focused only on diversity as a means of pandering instead of benefiting the world building.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> And the point I’m making is these people aren’t mind readers; therefore they have no point



And you'd be wrong, given the vile garbage Older for example has published. Which is so militant in its left wing racism that it makes me question his mental stability..Also he should be sued by Togashi and Shounen Jump given that he basically plagiarized YYH and made it about a brave, stunning, puerto Rican spirit detective murdering white people.

And he's vomited up nonsense like "Star Wars isn't diverse because aliens don't count" beyond being so stupid, juvenile and unsubtle as to not see the whole Empire being humanocentrist was an allegory to fear of the other he clearly has contempt for the franchise, its traditions and its morays.

Oh and the last book he wrote had Han act like a klansmen..a Gungan speaking normal basic so he could lecture the evil white smuggler about how bigoted it was to assume all Gungans sound like that and Lando was...preachy and woke...as opposed to being a charismatic opportunist.

So you can fuck off about claiming we don't have a point when they hired a bigoted, reprobate piece of Decon shit like that. 



Turrin said:


> Yes and where did they get the idea that having the word ‘diversity’ on a whiteboard = ‘diversity for diversity sake’ other then they mind reading powers?




You mean besides the fact that the idiots had diversity listed twice?

And they're already out in force harassing the fans?


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Because they have seen the newest trilogy.


Which was written by different people; and doesn’t even have that issue


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> And you'd be wrong, given the vile garbage Older for example has published. Which is so militant in its left wing racism that it makes me question his mental stability..Also he should be sued by Togashi and Shounen Jump given that he basically plagiarized YYH and made it about a brave, stunning, puerto Rican spirit detective murdering white people.
> 
> And he's vomited up nonsense like "Star Wars isn't diverse because aliens don't count" beyond being so stupid, juvenile and unsubtle as to not see the whole Empire being humanocentrist was an allegory to fear of the other he clearly has contempt for the franchise, its traditions and its morays.
> 
> ...


Was older the only one in that room...no, okay then 

Wow it’s almost like more then one person was putting their ideas on the board; and two people thought diversity was important; crazy!


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2020)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> You're going to have to ask "them" that. I don't know. I'm not the one to draw that conclusion and I don't represent anyone who may have done so.


I don’t have to as it’s the only possible answer


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## Unicornsilovethem (Mar 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I don’t have to as it’s the only possible answer


OK, thanks for sharing your mind reading powers with us.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Mar 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Which was written by different people; and doesn’t even have that issue



Hhahahahhahaha.
Random lesbians kissing  are just the beginning of the list.


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 11, 2020)

Star Wars been doing diversity long before twitters retards and tumblr scum wanna make that shit a grand prize
And in shouldn’t be a fucking main mission when Star Wars couldn’t give two shits about it as long as your
A.Well written
B.it matters to world building
And primarily maintaining peace among the fucking GALAXY let alone the universe 
Mace windu was a badass MOFO and lando himself was a good character along with The verse having several badass female characters in it.


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> OK, thanks for sharing your mind reading powers with us.


Sure any time; it’s not hard to read the brilliant minds of people freaking out about a word on a whiteboard


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Hhahahahhahaha.
> Random lesbians kissing  are just the beginning of the list.


In fairness I didn’t bother seeing Rise of Skywalker yet; so I’m talking about up to that point. 

And I’m not surprise that Rise of Skywalker has pandering the entire movie is suppose to be as it’s a direct reaction to fans such as those on this forum being buthurt about actual good writing in the TLJ; because they didn’t make the entire movie a handjob to Luke


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Was older the only one in that room...no, okay then



Ah yes, Because his peers...which include a woman who had a character refer to Yoda as a misogynist in a novel are any better. Or that hiring that talentless, domestic terrorist supporting commie hack in the first place isn't totally indicative of the profitless direction Lucasfilm is taking under the auspices of the Mouse..totally




Turrin said:


> Wow it’s almost like more then one person was putting their ideas on the board; and two people thought diversity was important; crazy!



Man, it's almost like someone who isn't a professional but is a talentless narcissist would se the thing they wanna push listed as a thing slated for being pushed and not feel the need to say it twice 



Claudio Swiss said:


> Star Wars been doing diversity long before twitters retards and tumblr scum wanna make that shit a grand prize
> And in shouldn’t be a fucking main mission when Star Wars couldn’t give two shits about it as long as your
> A.Well written
> B.it matters to world building
> ...




>Be Grand Admiral Thrawn

>Be a political exile from a region of the galaxy no one knows anything about.

>Be from a species people thought were an urban legend

>Be a low born commoner's bastard son fostered by a noble family

>That noble family doesn't have any recognition in the eyes of the GE

>You join a foreign military as a former military officer of a potentially hostile foreign power and as a member of a minority and not even as a citizen of that nation

>Said military is decidedly aristocratic, core world elitist and humanocentric

>Overcome xenophobia, low birth, outsider status and attain the highest rank in that military in only five years

>Trusted by its Sovereign with an entire armada to go invade a foreign land and make an empire out of it in his name

>Be trusted with this enormous honor soley on merit

>25 years later some morbidly obese twat with danger hair, diabetes and a contract she doesn't deserve calls you a "patriarchal racist, problematic character"

>simps in this thread defend it


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 11, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Ah yes, Because his peers...which include a woman who had a character refer to Yoda as a misogynist in a novel are any better. Or that hiring that talentless, domestic terrorist supporting commie hack in the first place isn't totally indicative of the profitless direction Lucasfilm is taking under the auspices of the Mouse..totally
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s fucking ridiculous 
So many good characters from the EU they could’ve been used and got forsaken for Woke garbage

The moronic folks you see don’t really care for the brand only to use it to push there version of of diversity AKA Bullshit fanfic that make the average writer look like Einstein in writing


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Ah yes, Because his peers...which include a woman who had a character refer to Yoda as a misogynist in a novel are any better. Or that hiring that talentless, domestic terrorist supporting commie hack in the first place isn't totally indicative of the profitless direction Lucasfilm is taking under the auspices of the Mouse..totally
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So basically your making widespread generalizations.

And come on dude they probably all just went up and wrote on the board at the same time things they thought were important


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## Pilaf (Mar 14, 2020)

tHeRe WaS nO sOuRcE mAtErIaL


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## MShadows (Mar 14, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> tHeRe WaS nO sOuRcE mAtErIaL


Only an idiot would fall back on that excuse when the original movies and extended universe not only had a dozen of awesome female characters but also much better ones than the horseshit Disney gave us.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 14, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Only an idiot would fall back on that excuse when the original movies and extended universe not only had a dozen of awesome female characters but also much better ones than the horseshit Disney gave us.



Mara Jade, Jaina Solo, Empress Marisiah Fel, Ar'alani (Thrawn's mentor no less), Vergere, fucking Nomi Sunrider the chick who was Yoda's role model. Meetra Surik, Vima Sunrider, Mon Mothma (Even if she was a cunt and a snake), Bastilla Shan, Satele Shan. Leia, Tahiri Veila, that Hapan thot, Padme Nabarre.


Mother...fucking..Kreia

Who is possibly the single greatest anti-hero in the history of science fiction and arguably the greatest written Star Wars character. The embodiment of cynicism, machiavellianism and misotheism. Conceived of as a shitpost, built up brilliantly and executed masterfully 

edit-allegedly the model who did the body stuff for Mara Jade offered to be in the force Awakens as an elderly Mara, happily married to Luke and they were like "fuck off bitch"


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 14, 2020)

Come to think of it Kreia's mere existence completely destroys the notion that its sexism and butthurt that our precious mythology was deconstructed (And really, anyone who makes the argument that it should be is an idiot) that fuels the fury of the so called Fandom menace.

Not only does Kreia have a pair of tits, saggy as they may be  But she was also a deconstruction of Jedi and Sith, a character who easily could have been a shitty edgelord in the hands of lesser writers. She rejected the Sith philosophy, she rejected Jedi dogma, she rejected the force itself. She hated the mythology of her own story, sought to destroy the divine force whose will empowers heroes and villain alike because she believed it was wholly malignant. She chaffed and challenged and criticized, made a mockery of and sought to actively subvert what it meant to be a character in star wars and her goal was to deconstruct (literally)the very thing that made Star Wars unique and she was amazing for it.

Maybe that's why users in this thread and retards on twitter and inside Lucasfilm itself hate her so much. Because in the end, her misotheism, subversive outlook and resentment were all proven to be wrong, unfounded and misplaced and she paid for it the worst possible way, by living to see her agenda fail. 

Huh...boy...that sounds an awful lot like what's happening to them right now doesn't it? Sheesh, no wonder she doesn't exist to them, they must shed tears of seething rage whenever they read or hear the mere name.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dr_shadow (Mar 19, 2020)

Now that this is probably out of theaters due to the coronavirus, I guess it's time to recap the franchise box office.

*Not adjusted for inflation (worldwide)
*
1. The Force Awakens ($2,068,223,624)
2. The Last Jedi ($1,332,539,889)
3. The Rise of Skywalker ($1,074,143,666)

4. The Phantom Menace ($1,027,082,707)
5. Revenge of the Sith ($868,390,560)
6. A New Hope ($775,512,064)

7. Attack of the Clones ($653,779,970)
8. The Empire Strikes Back ($547,897,454)
9. Return of the Jedi ($475,347,111)

*Adjusted for inflation (United States & Canada) *_Boxofficemojo doesn't provide a global table_

1. A New Hope ($1,668,979,715)
2. The Force Awakens ($1,013,038,487)
3. The Empire Strikes Back ($919,244,787)

4. Return of the Jedi ($881,336,578)
5. The Phantom Menace ($846,224,377)
6. The Last Jedi ($633,360,465)

7. Revenge of the Sith ($555,871,502)
8. The Rise of Skywalker ($515,201,954)
9. Attack of the Clones ($500,999,845)


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## reiatsuflow (Mar 19, 2020)

Once more with feeling,

Last jedi > rise of skywalker


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## dr_shadow (Mar 19, 2020)

reiatsuflow said:


> Once more with feeling,
> 
> Last jedi > rise of skywalker



I'd say more people went to see Last Jedi because they expected it to be like Force Awakens. Then they stayed away from Rise of Skywalker because they expected it to be like Last Jedi.


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## reiatsuflow (Mar 19, 2020)

I also meant last jedi is a better movie than rise of skywalker.

I'm not complimenting last jedi, I'm insulting RoS.


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## dr_shadow (Mar 19, 2020)

reiatsuflow said:


> I also meant last jedi is a better movie than rise of skywalker.
> 
> I'm not complimenting last jedi, I'm insulting RoS.



I've only seen Rise of Skywalker once, in an ancient Macanese theater that had metal seats, no heating, and no popcorn. So I'll have to see it again at a time when I'm not cold or hungry to know for sure if I really hated it or not.


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## reiatsuflow (Mar 19, 2020)

In retrospect it just wasn't much of a movie and you could feel the push and pull of the studio and the fans and the director trying to make everybody happy and not really having the time or leeway to write an inspired story for more than a scene at a time. In that there were good scenes individually, but never two good scenes sequentially. ,

Last jedi at least had that with some of the luke/rey/kylo plot.


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## MShadows (Mar 20, 2020)

mr_shadow said:


> I've only seen Rise of Skywalker once, in an ancient Macanese theater that had metal seats, no heating, and no popcorn. So I'll have to see it again at a time when I'm not cold or hungry to know for sure if I really hated it or not.


The service was as good as the movie


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## Pilaf (Mar 21, 2020)




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## NostalgiaFan (Mar 21, 2020)




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## Pilaf (Mar 22, 2020)

He shoulda used Triple H's golden shovel if he wanted to really bury them.


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## OLK (Mar 23, 2020)

Man I don't even wanna pirate this


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## Deathbringerpt (Mar 26, 2020)

How in the fuck are people still talking about this

You're all literally the source of your own misery.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 26, 2020)

Maybe because it's going to be available to stream prematurely? Disney arguably got the ball rolling on this, with all of the coronavirus stuff going on right now.


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Mar 26, 2020)

It has been available for two weeks already.


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## MShadows (Mar 27, 2020)

This is a movie that should only be seen once at most.


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## Mider T (Mar 27, 2020)

Deathbringerpt said:


> How in the fuck are people still talking about this
> 
> You're all literally the source of your own misery.


Popular movie


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## Toph (Mar 27, 2020)

reiatsuflow said:


> Once more with feeling,
> 
> Last jedi > rise of skywalker



They both suck. TLJ even more so. JJ was hired to start off a new trilogy with minimal references to the OT and establish a 'new Star Wars', while reminding people it was a Star Wars movie. Now while this project was doomed to failure from the beginning, at least JJ had the burden of actually having to think up how to do this

Rian's job was literally supposed to take the ideas JJ already created and just expand upon them for one movie, instead he completely undid the previous movie, completely ruining his own movie, and also sabotaging the third movie. So Rian ruined 3 movies, not just his own


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## Mickey Mouse (Mar 27, 2020)

I am going to wait till it is free.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Mar 28, 2020)

Mickey Mouse said:


> I am going to wait till it is free.



It's already free.
Ho ho and a bottle of rum.


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## Mickey Mouse (Mar 28, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> It's already free.
> Ho ho and a bottle of rum.


But I mean like in a way that requires me not much effort to watch it.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 30, 2020)

Can I watch the Enterprise series and then the new Trilogy or do I need to watch all the other movies and tv series as well?


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## dr_shadow (Mar 30, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Can I watch the Enterprise series and then the new Trilogy or do I need to watch all the other movies and tv series as well?



You're confusing_ Star Trek_ with_ Star Wars_.

For Star Wars, you just need to see the nine numbered films. Everything else is optional.

For Star Trek, you can_ in principle_ watch each series in isolation and kind of get what's going on, but it'll be more enjoyable to see all 700-odd episodes in order.


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## MartialHorror (Mar 30, 2020)

I remember watching "First Contact" when it first came out and thinking it was awesome, even though I never watched much of the series. I then watched the next one... "Insurrection" or something like that? I thought it was boring. Admittedly, I seem to remember "First Contact" being really intense, at times almost like a horror movie so it was more my thing. 

I enjoyed the newer films alright, but even though I tried to get into the original series, I just couldn't... which is odd, because what I saw was actually pretty damn good. Star Trek really is a "you either get it or don't" kind of thing.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 31, 2020)

mr_shadow said:


> You're confusing_ Star Trek_ with_ Star Wars_.
> 
> For Star Wars, you just need to see the nine numbered films. Everything else is optional.
> 
> For Star Trek, you can_ in principle_ watch each series in isolation and kind of get what's going on, but it'll be more enjoyable to see all 700-odd episodes in order.



Sorry, wrong thread


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## Pilaf (Mar 31, 2020)

MShadows said:


> This is a movie that should only be seen once at most.



If you're a Sufi and believe in suffering, sure.


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## Comic Book Guy (Apr 14, 2020)

*DAISY RIDLEY Blames 'Social Media' for Poor STAR WARS: RISE OF SKYWALKER Reception*


*On the one hand -- the writers, director, higher-up organizers made RoS rather poor, making criticism & poor reception warranted, & is no excuse to deflect that part of responsibility.

HOWEVER, on the other hand -- the toxic social media practice such as the outrageous harassment that Kelly Marie Tran received, & encouraging such toxic engagement, are inexcusable. Crap writing & decisions does not justify harassment or toxic shit whatsoever.*


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 14, 2020)

Comic Book Guy said:


> *DAISY RIDLEY Blames 'Social Media' for Poor STAR WARS: RISE OF SKYWALKER Reception*
> 
> 
> *On the one hand -- the writers, director, higher-up organizers made RoS rather poor, making criticism & poor reception warranted, & is no excuse to deflect that part of responsibility.
> ...


"Muh KMT"
That shit did not even occur during the release of the film you manfaced nimrod. 


Your companies entire attitude to shit on all fans simply for not liking and criticizing your films as being "manbabies" and fucking over the legacy of the original cast is what caused it's bad reception.

Reactions: Like 3


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 14, 2020)

The people behind this trilogy are completely delusional.
The only more deluded people are those that gave x-men dark phoenix flick to the same screenwriters that made the x-men 3 trainwreck as if ruining the phoenix saga once wasn't enough for them.


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## Son Of Man (Apr 14, 2020)

Anyone here watch Rule of Two on youtube? A few weeks ago one of the hosts Mark Fernandez (owner of collider) said he had spoken and interviewed rian johnson a couple of times. I forget what happened next but eventually Mark was told the story of how Rian had gotten the job of writting TLJ. Basically Rian went to Kathy Kennedy and pitched a movie idea for a stand alone movie. Kathy liked it so much that she said great use that script for the 8th movie. Rian said "okay sure" and that's how Rian got the job of writing TLJ. It was a movie pitch for a stand alone movie that was somewhat reworked to fit in with TFA.


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## MShadows (Apr 16, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Apr 19, 2020)




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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 19, 2020)




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## reiatsuflow (Apr 19, 2020)

Son Of Man said:


> Anyone here watch Rule of Two on youtube? A few weeks ago one of the hosts Mark Fernandez (owner of collider) said he had spoken and interviewed rian johnson a couple of times. I forget what happened next but eventually Mark was told the story of how Rian had gotten the job of writting TLJ. Basically Rian went to Kathy Kennedy and pitched a movie idea for a stand alone movie. Kathy liked it so much that she said great use that script for the 8th movie. Rian said "okay sure" and that's how Rian got the job of writing TLJ. It was a movie pitch for a stand alone movie that was somewhat reworked to fit in with TFA.



Funny thing is that could have been great.

A stand alone movie about a cynical old jedi reluctantly training a new force user.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Apr 19, 2020)

When a youtube edit with Anakin's ghost  is better than the whole movie


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## Pilaf (Apr 20, 2020)

Two of three people who have been on film who deserve the name Skywalker, the third being Carrie Fisher. 

There are no others.

The Skywalker Saga ended after six films.


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## Mider T (Apr 20, 2020)

Nah the Skywalker Saga ended after 9 movies, they even say it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 20, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> The Skywalker Saga ended after six films.





Mider T said:


> Nah the Skywalker Saga ended after 9 movies, they even say it.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 20, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Nah the Skywalker Saga ended after 6 movies, they even say it.


FFYI


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## Pilaf (Apr 20, 2020)

DiD yOu KnOw?!?!?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 20, 2020)

They really don't get the concept of "show, don't tell" do they?


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## Mider T (Apr 20, 2020)

I just checked the Wookiepedia, had no idea Jar Jar was disgraced after Episode III.  Didn't even know he was still alive after the Battle of Endor.


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## Sunrider (Apr 20, 2020)

Mider T said:


> I just checked the Wookiepedia, had no idea Jar Jar was disgraced after Episode III.  Didn't even know he was still alive after the Battle of Endor.


Guess he came full circle, then.


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## Pilaf (Apr 21, 2020)

To be honest his character doesn't deserve to be shat on in-universe. He's annoying to our sensibilities as viewers but if you add up the sum total of bro moments he has, especially in the Clone Wars series, he deserves better. Of course, it's Didney Worl now and he's a PT character so he must be shat upon.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 21, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> To be honest his character doesn't deserve to be shat on in-universe. He's annoying to our sensibilities as viewers but if you add up the sum total of bro moments he has, especially in the Clone Wars series, he deserves better. Of course, it's Didney Worl now and he's a PT character so he must be shat upon.



Eh, it's more to do with the fact that everyone hated him. I rarely even see PT defenders stand up for him. Only Lucas seems to like him and even he understood the backlash to drastically reduce his role in episode 2 or 3, so it's not just Disney pissing on the prequels. 

I am curious though what would become of him. What piece of media revealed he was 'disgraced'? Was it just this... twitter facts stuff?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 22, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Eh, it's more to do with the fact that everyone hated him. I rarely even see PT defenders stand up for him. Only Lucas seems to like him and even he understood the backlash to drastically reduce his role in episode 2 or 3, so it's not just Disney pissing on the prequels.
> 
> I am curious though what would become of him. What piece of media revealed he was 'disgraced'? Was it just this... twitter facts stuff?



He was obviously made the scapegoat for the senates incompetence/corruption after being made to lead the vote giving Palpatine special powers which paved his way as emperor.
Makes sense in story he would be disgraced, since he hardly had the political know how to defend himself.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 22, 2020)




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## Catalyst75 (Apr 22, 2020)

Sounds like Leslye Headland will be show runner and a screenwriter for this new series.


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## Mider T (Apr 23, 2020)

Can't wait for the show!


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## Sherlōck (Apr 23, 2020)

mr_shadow said:


> For Star Wars, you just need to see the nine numbered films. Everything else is optional.



What about tv series and stand alone films? Where do they fit in the timeline?


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 23, 2020)

Fucking pathetic


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## Claudio Swiss (Apr 23, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Fucking pathetic


I can smell the cat lady vibes from these people


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Eh, it's more to do with the fact that everyone hated him. I rarely even see PT defenders stand up for him. Only Lucas seems to like him and even he understood the backlash to drastically reduce his role in episode 2 or 3, so it's not just Disney pissing on the prequels.
> 
> I am curious though what would become of him. What piece of media revealed he was 'disgraced'? Was it just this... twitter facts stuff?


Darth Jar Jar would’ve rivaled the Vader reveal, even if that wasn’t something actually considered by Lucas it’s just too damn good.


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## Pilaf (Apr 24, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Eh, it's more to do with the fact that everyone hated him. I rarely even see PT defenders stand up for him. Only Lucas seems to like him and even he understood the backlash to drastically reduce his role in episode 2 or 3, so it's not just Disney pissing on the prequels.
> 
> I am curious though what would become of him. What piece of media revealed he was 'disgraced'? Was it just this... twitter facts stuff?




He was for the little kids. I was too old to appreciate him for my own reasons or to appreciate that he was there for the kids them tpm came out. I was 13 or 14 at the time. Not his target audience at all. Now that I'm much older I can put him into his proper perspective. George always included things for kids because he wanted to continuously attract new generations to his stories. There's nothing for kids in the Disney movies.


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## Pilaf (Apr 24, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Fucking pathetic




Yeah but that's okay because "the Force is female", despite being an energy field generated by microscopic asexual organisms called midichlorians.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 24, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> What about tv series and stand alone films? Where do they fit in the timeline?


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 24, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> I can smell the cat lady vibes from these people



If it's between them and the kind of guy who thinks Christianizing the Force would be  a good idea, I'll choose to wait and see what they bring to the franchise.


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## Claudio Swiss (Apr 24, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> If it's between them and the kind of guy who thinks *Christianizing the Force would be  a good idea*, I'll choose to wait and see what they bring to the franchise.


I don't even see the point of bringing that shit up let alone don't know what the fuck ur talking about but ill take that over whatever the hell they'll cook up


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## The Runner (Apr 24, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> the kind of guy who thinks Christianizing the Force would be a good idea


it’s fine to name some names. Filoni? 


It ain’t Lucas, if that’s what you’re playing at.


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 24, 2020)

The Runner said:


> it’s fine to name some names. Filoni?
> 
> 
> It ain’t Lucas, if that’s what you’re playing at.



Joe Bongiorno, the owner of starwarstimeline.net. 



Claudio Swiss said:


> I don't even see the point of bringing that shit up let alone don't know what the fuck ur talking about but ill take that over whatever the hell they'll cook up



There's a novella called _Supernatural Encounters _on starwarstimeline.net_. _There's a Supreme Maker (God), the Hebrew names of orders of angels are used to describe his servants; and the Force is changed into something "sown and harvested" by this Supreme Maker. claims the Star Wars setting was created after "Nakhash" (Hebrew for "Serpent"; aka. the Devil) screwed things up in the "Primary Universe" - _our _Universe; the Hebrew word for Earth, Erets, is used.

It also happens to plagiarize the premise of the original _Battlestar Galactica _as part of its origin story for Humans in the setting - one of the Bedlam Spirits transplanted them from our universe_, _then the original _Battlestar Galactica _premise played out from there.

Here's the offending piece: 

But, if you'd prefer stuff like that because "reasons", I fail to see what it is you think Star Wars is supposed to be about.


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## Claudio Swiss (Apr 24, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> Joe Bongiorno, the owner of starwarstimeline.net.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Barring a few parts it Sounds interesting and beats whatever they may cook up so


----------



## Catalyst75 (Apr 24, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Barring a few parts it Sounds interesting and beats whatever they may cook up so



Yet you have no idea what they might create down the line.  That said, you evidently can't be bothered to care enough about the original themes of the franchise to care how that thing effectively erases the majority of them to replace them with its own.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Apr 24, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> Yet you have no idea what they might create down the line.  That said, you evidently can't be bothered to care enough about the original themes of the franchise to care how that thing effectively erases the majority of them to replace them with its own.


I can can already see given the shit we been given the past couple of years and nothing they even remotely showed me gives me reasons to believe otherwise 
Now Listen jim let’s rewind a bit shall we
Did I say the shit u brought up was good?
No 
Interesting? yes 
Key difference son don’t act stupid


----------



## Catalyst75 (Apr 24, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> I can can already see given the shit we been given the past couple of years and nothing they even remotely showed me gives me reasons to believe otherwise
> Now Listen jim let’s rewind a bit shall we
> Did I say the shit u brought up was good?
> No
> ...



Did I claim you said it was good? No, so don't claim I did.

What you said was 'interesting', which was why I guessed you didn't care how it clashed with themes from the original films.

The themes of the Force have strong roots in eastern beliefs, specifically in Buddhism. A "Supreme Maker" that brings all the trappings of the Abrahamic religions with them erases the spiritual Buddhist roots, or at the very least forces them to be superseded by western religious views. That alone is enough to dismiss it in its entirety.

The Force is an energy field created by all living things. Let it be that; it never needed God to make sense.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Apr 24, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> Did I claim you said it was good? No, so don't claim I did.
> 
> What you said was 'interesting', which was why I guessed you didn't care how it clashed with themes from the original films.
> 
> ...


You practically inferred chief don’t play stupid now
The rest of what u posted means shit to me cause I ain’t arguing over themes or whatever simply 
taking this shit than whatever we’ll get from these clowns and nothing is gonna convince me otherwise


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Apr 24, 2020)

Also why mods delete my negga @NostalgiaFan posts


----------



## Catalyst75 (Apr 24, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> The rest of what u posted means shit to me cause I ain’t arguing over themes or whatever simply
> taking this shit than whatever we’ll get from these clowns and nothing is gonna convince me otherwise



As for me, I've enjoyed what we've gotten so far, and I look forward to seeing what new stories will be told in the future. You can complain all you want about how it and call me whatever you want for liking it, but that's how it is.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 24, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> I can can already see given the shit we been given the past couple of years and nothing they even remotely showed me gives me reasons to believe otherwise
> Now Listen jim let’s rewind a bit shall we
> Did I say the shit u brought up was good?
> No
> ...


Hilarious to watch anyone who defends the current Disney canon say you don't care about the SW mythos when Disney has done more to butcher it than anyone else.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Apr 24, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> As for me, I've enjoyed what we've gotten so far, and I look forward to seeing what new stories will be told in the future. You can complain all you want about how it and call me whatever you want for liking it, but that's how it is.


you like enjoying shit okay be my guest I aint gonna stop ya:gitgud
like if you think that mean shit to me than lol you hurting urself there
ill take the stuff from the past over the Disney fanfic


NostalgiaFan said:


> Hilarious to watch anyone who defends the current Disney canon say you don't care about the SW mythos when Disney has done more to butcher it than anyone else.


it funny honestly 
give the past crap yet defending the horeshit the sequels did is amazingly funny and scream lack of self awareness


----------



## Catalyst75 (Apr 24, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> you like enjoying shit okay be my guest I aint gonna stop ya:gitgud
> like if you think that mean shit to me than lol you hurting urself there
> ill take the stuff from the past over the Disney fanfic
> 
> ...



At least the new canon has a future to look forward to, which mean opportunities for new stories, and opportunities to grow and improve. It's also a better use of my time to look forward to those future stories and experience them as they come.

Listening to you on repeat about how much you hate the new canon and how everyone should feel like how you feel? It was never worth the time, and is still not worth it.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Apr 24, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> At least the new canon has a future to look forward to, which mean opportunities for new stories, and opportunities to grow and improve. It's also a better use of my time to look forward to those future stories and experience them as they come.
> 
> Listening to you on repeat about how much you hate the new canon and* how everyone should feel like how you feel? *It was never worth the time, and is still not worth it.


projection doesn't get u anywhere sweety
you mean stories that gonna be copy and paste from stuff from the EU and while being inferior while at it and make the stories of old that were flawed gold?

I'm so impressed....
maybe if they made worthwhile stories instead of the constant crap we gotten for the past years


----------



## blakstealth (Apr 24, 2020)

y'all should stop talking about this old movie and watch clone wars. that's the real hot shit going on right now.


----------



## Kaaant (Apr 24, 2020)

If by hot shit you mean hot dogshit you would be right.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Apr 24, 2020)

blakstealth said:


> y'all should stop talking about this old movie and watch clone wars. that's the real hot shit going on right now.


I watch some clips on YouTube to see what’s up


----------



## Kaaant (Apr 24, 2020)

Ok so the context here is nostalgiafan asks sarcastically which continuity is better in response to Disney retardation, and catalyst tries roast the Eu by saying this



> Which one had Emperor Palpatine revive himself in several clone bodies (later in direct contradiction to the Prequel Trilogy and the "Chosen One" prophecy which is supposed to be fulfilled by his destruction), and has Luke so impressed and overwhelmed by Palpatine's Dark Side powers that Luke willingly falls to the Dark Side to try to destroy it from within? You know, the very thing that many other Jedi in the Legends canon tried and failed to do? And Luke does this when "Return of the Jedi" has him say "I will never turn to the Dark Side".



So, ignoring the last part; which is a flat out lie, Luke pretends to fall to destroy palpatine’s army from within. It succeeds but he almost does fall for real. He’s saved by his sister and it’s actually a good moment where both anakin’s children, and anakin’s grandson, defeat palpatine. 

But I’m interested in what catalyst thinks of 9 now that it literally stole from dark empire - even the superweapon fleet controlled by a control signal. So my question to coombrain is, does he like that palpatine clones himself in nine, and undoes the prophecy? Because he certainly didn’t when the Eu did it. 

Ironic too he criticises that Luke would almost fall. Did you like it when Luke quits the order, and tries to murder his nephew in his sleep? Did you like the bit where a complete rando destroys all the sith where anakin didn’t? @Catalyst75 did you like that bit?


----------



## Catalyst75 (Apr 24, 2020)

blakstealth said:


> y'all should stop talking about this old movie and watch clone wars. that's the real hot shit going on right now.



There was also news I shared two page ago about Leslye Headland being made show-runner for a new Star Wars series on Disney Plus. I'm not familiar with their work personally, but I am curious to see what that series will turn out to be, and I also heard they're already working on Season 3 for The Mandalorian.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2020)

The biggest problem with Star Wars is the fans that don’t allow others to enjoy what they enjoy. The sequel trilogy had its faults but Kylo Ren and more specifically Adam Driver was absolutely phenomenal.


----------



## Kaaant (Apr 24, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The biggest problem with Star Wars is the fans that don’t allow others to enjoy what they enjoy. The sequel trilogy had its faults but Kylo Ren and more specifically Adam Driver was absolutely phenomenal.



Cringe. Are you going to post the stop having fun image next? The st is shit. And Adam Driver being one good thing about it, maybe, isn’t going to change that.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2020)

Kaaant said:


> @Catalyst75 did you like it
> 
> 
> 
> Cringe. Are you going to post the stop having fun image next? The st is shit. And Adam Driver being one good thing about it, maybe, isn’t going to change that.


It’s cringe that I enjoyed the media I paid for?


----------



## Kaaant (Apr 24, 2020)

Consume product. 

It’s cringe that you are insecure about the thing you like being worthy of criticism.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2020)

Kaaant said:


> Consume product.
> 
> It’s cringe that you are insecure about the thing you like being worthy of criticism.


I’m not though, I respect the criticism but don’t ruin others enjoyment because you had a different head cannon.


----------



## Kaaant (Apr 24, 2020)

It’s not about headcanon though. You can like a bad movie, but it is still a bad movie.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2020)

Kaaant said:


> It’s not about headcanon though. You can like a bad movie, but it is still a bad movie.


Art is subjective


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 24, 2020)

There is nothing subjective about ROS being anything but trash fire.


----------



## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Apr 24, 2020)

I liked this film 

im not a SWs fan. I was pretty meh about the other 2 films in this trilogy and couldn't really tell you what the other trilogies are about, but this film by itself was alright. The fight in the mid of the film between rey and kylo was cool. I also had the biggest boner ever when evil rey was onscreen. 

And of course... if C-3PO ever dies, he dies


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> There is nothing subjective about ROS being anything but trash fire.


Then why are you on an anime board talking about how garbage it was? Just give it up and move on. That doesn’t seem conductive of good mental health.


----------



## Pilaf (Apr 25, 2020)

blakstealth said:


> y'all should stop talking about this old movie and watch clone wars. that's the real hot shit going on right now.




Why not both? I always thought Filoni should have handled the Disney trilogy, and the consistent goodness of all he works on reinforces that and makes the sequels look like even worse dogshit in comparison.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 25, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Then why are you on an anime board talking about how garbage it was?


>he says while he himself posts on said Anime Board desperately defending said garbage like it is his life

Stuff it with the hypocritical well poisoning shmuck.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Just give it up and move on. That doesn’t seem conductive of good mental health.


You're as bad at psychology as you are in defending your shitshow of a trilogy. And it's hilarious how you pretend we have been the only ones talking about this film when the thread was barren for a while until others started bumping it up with updates. No shit we would than start talking about especially when the recent news is just more of the same sjw bullshit that has plagued this IP for years now.


----------



## Pilaf (Apr 25, 2020)

Of course people who never actually had something mean anything to them on a deep and fundamental level would lack the understanding to see how this hate and disappointment, born of love, is necessary. If someone broke into their house, shot their dog, fucked their kids and shat all over the kitchen floor, maybe they'd be upset. They can't see how this is our house. These were the myths that gave us hope growing up. We ain't done. We're gonna John Wick this shit.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> The difference being you are one hell of a snowflake if you cannot take the fact there is always going to be people who criticize something you like?
> 
> If it upsets you so much you could just use the ignore button since there is nothing stopping you from doing that.
> 
> Clearly you have a serious self projection issue based on how much you keep using that flimsy argument point.


That’s where you’re wrong, I never stated that I liked the movies, just that I enjoyed Driver’s performance and the character of Kylo Ren. This isn’t about me, I’m defending the people that actually did enjoy the movie. 

Star Wars was never a Shakespearean epic in the first place, people who enjoy a good script and nuance in their storytelling looked down upon the OT. To complain about it’s storytelling flaws and poor characterization would be to complain about the presentation of a Big Mac and fries from McDonald’s.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 25, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> That’s where you’re wrong, I never stated that I liked the movies, just that I enjoyed Driver’s performance and the character of Kylo Ren. This isn’t about me, I’m defending the people that actually did enjoy the movie.
> 
> *Star Wars was never a Shakespearean epic in the first place, people who enjoy a good script and nuance in their storytelling looked down upon the OT. To complain about it’s storytelling flaws and poor characterization would be to complain about the presentation of a Big Mac and fries from McDonald’s*.



oh lord never seen this kind of argument before.

You can do better then this, or perhaps not. 

The movie is trash plain and simple.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 25, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> That’s where you’re wrong, I never stated that I liked the movies, just that I enjoyed Driver’s performance and the character of Kylo Ren. This isn’t about me, I’m defending the people that actually did enjoy the movie.


Oh what a hero you are, want a standing ovation? Besides the shit you like being shitty in of itself you clearly targeted SW fans in general by acting as if they are at fault for "not allowing people to enjoy what they want to enjoy", when it was ST fans that shitted all day long about the Prequels and EU for years yet than than act as if they are being victimized for people now shitting on their recent trilogy as if they should be exempt. Along with the people in charge going out of their way to than piss off their own fans by calling them "manbabies"  just for stating they did not like it which of course is just going to make your fanbase even more hostile to whatever you put out. 

The biggest problem with SW is not the fanbase, it's the current owners.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Star Wars was never a Shakespearean epic in the first place, people who enjoy a good script and nuance in their storytelling looked down upon the OT.


Irrelevant. Not a single person here even used the word "Shakespearean", as for your baseless spiel on the later I can say you don't know what nuance or a good script is since a basic fucking thing like that was in the OT and even in small parts of the PT with the former at least, the Sequels on the other hand fail at even the basic level which is why they are such failures on a storytelling level compared to the former two trilogies. If your using a bunch of stuck up snobs who looked down at SW for being a more typical hero's journey than your problem is using guys who are clearly not into that sort of genre at all.  The OT worked for being exactly what it intended to which is a classic story of a young hero coming up to rise against an evil group of people with the help of his friends. A simple but effective story that is well done. The ST is shitted on for the fact it failed at telling such a basic story and even more for ruining the accomplishments of the previous cast to essentially remake their story with the worse new cast. 


Kisame3rd14 said:


> To complain about it’s storytelling flaws and poor characterization would be to complain about the presentation of a Big Mac and fries from McDonald’s.


Ah the typical "SW has always been bad' that ST apologists just love to use. Sorry no can do, not gonna work here. Both the OT and PT for what ever flaws they had reach no where near the sheer awfulness of TLJ or ROS when it comes to screwing up a basic hero's journey or even trying to be original. And we can see from how hard the IP tanked in comparison to the previous two that the Sequels clearly fucked up worse than any other.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 25, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> oh lord never seen this kind of argument before.
> 
> You can do better then this, or perhaps not.
> 
> The movie is trash plain and simple.






NostalgiaFan said:


> Oh what a hero you are, want a standing ovation? Besides the shit you like being shitty in of itself you clearly targeted SW fans in general by acting as if they are at fault for "not allowing people to enjoy what they want to enjoy", when it was ST fans that shitted all day long about the Prequels and EU for years yet than than act as if they are being victimized for people now shitting on their recent trilogy as if they should be exempt. Along with the people in charge going out of their way to than piss off their own fans by calling them "manbabies"  just for stating they did not like it which of course is just going to make your fanbase even more hostile to whatever you put out.
> 
> The biggest problem with SW is not the fanbase, it's the current owners.
> 
> ...


No I’m not up for a pat on the back, I’m just pointing out how you already lost the debate the moment you revealed your bias.


It’s not irrelevant in fact, it’s the reason you split my complete thought in half because there would be no way for you to make an argument . Star Wars has always been a joke outside of its community of children and obsessive man children. What’s next, are we going to start bashing the writers of baby first tv for not being subtle about hiding the acorn behind the couch? How about we get on those hacks at Sesame Street, it’s been what 25-30 years and that stupid blue monster still hasn’t developed as a character, for once I’d like to see him eat anything else but a damn chocolate chip cookie.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 25, 2020)

lol I'd say Star Wars is a Shakespearean epic, considering how Shakespeare's plays were designed to entertain the masses and weren't regarded as high brow in their day.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> lol I'd say Star Wars is a Shakespearean epic, considering how Shakespeare's plays were designed to entertain the masses and weren't regarded as high brow in their day.


Shakespeare *is well regarded today* for the depth and complexity of his human characters, Star Wars has never nor will it ever be regarded for those reasons.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Apr 25, 2020)

Disney shills are at again I see


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 25, 2020)

The irony is that you would have to be paid by Disney to think of Star Wars as anything more than a children friendly fast and furious in space.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 25, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Shakespeare *is well regarded today* for the depth and complexity of his human characters, Star Wars has never nor will it ever be regarded for those reasons.



Eh, right or wrong, I'd argue that a lot of people would argue that Star Wars has those. The problem with your argument was that when Star Wars came out, it was regarded as a fun movie. But these days, you're dealing with generations who grew up with Star Wars and possibly even built their interpretations of what 'depth and complexity' in characters are around it.

Also, why do people say "It's not Shakespeare"? He wrote bad plays too. Even some of his good ones weren't really all that deep or complex. At least list the actual plays lol.  

I don't necessarily disagree with you on the ST (I think... I enjoy the movies fine, even if I don't think they're as good as the OT) and think the downfall of the brand is much more complex than a few supposedly bad movies, but you're kind of late to the party lol.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 25, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> No I’m not up for a pat on the back, I’m just pointing out how you already lost the debate the moment you revealed your bias.


What the hell kind of logic are you spouting? Me being blunt about my feelings on the ST does not suddenly undo my point, that shit does not even make sense.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> It’s not irrelevant in fact, it’s the reason you split my complete thought in half because there would be no way for you to make an argument .


I split your posts because that's how I make my posts you presumptuous doofus. I find it easier to split them up to reply to each part instead of making one giant paragraph replying to another giant paragraph.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Star Wars has always been a joke outside of its community of children and obsessive man children.


Is that why the OT won Academy Awards and has inspired people all across the globe to the point even high end military projects during the 80s were named after it?

Because I sure as hell want to know what alternate reality you are from if that is the case.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> What’s next, are we going to start bashing the writers of baby first tv for not being subtle about hiding the acorn behind the couch?


No because unlike the ST those Baby shows have no intent on being anything else than what they are. The Sequels on the other hand tried to act like it is some deep thought provoking meta commentary on life(TLJ), or tried and failed at being fun entertaining action movies in the vain of the OT while adding nothing new and only leaving behind a convoluted mess.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> "irrelevant sperg about the cookie monster"


You done spouting useless info?


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Eh, right or wrong, I'd argue that a lot of people would argue that Star Wars has those. *The problem with your argument was that when Star Wars came out, it was regarded as a fun movie. But these days, you're dealing with generations who grew up with Star Wars and possibly even built their interpretations of what 'depth and complexity' in characters are around it.*
> 
> Also, why do people say "It's not Shakespeare"? He wrote bad plays too. Even some of his good ones weren't really all that deep or complex. At least list the actual plays lol.
> 
> I don't necessarily disagree with you on the ST (I think... I enjoy the movies fine, even if I don't think they're as good as the OT) and think the downfall of the brand is much more complex than a few supposedly bad movies, but you're kind of late to the party lol.


That’s on those fans, not me. The god of Star Wars has been milking the fans and winging it(in terms of direction) since the very beginning, he’s just as bad as George RR Martin in that regard.

Just because he’s the standard and he has the name recognition. How he got to be that way is up for tons of discussion and interpretation but I haven’t studied him enough to go there.

Agreed. But how it got there is more up to fan entitlement for any other factor.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 25, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> That’s on those fans, not me. The god of Star Wars has been milking the fans and winging it(in terms of direction) since the very beginning, he’s just as bad as George RR Martin in that regard.
> 
> Just because he’s the standard and he has the name recognition. How he got to be that way is up for tons of discussion and interpretation but I haven’t studied him enough to go there.
> 
> Agreed. But how it got there is more up to fan entitlement for any other factor.



Just out of curiosity, is there any franchise that you hold in high esteem? Because most of them 'milk the fans' and 'wing it'.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, is there any franchise that you hold in high esteem? Because most of them 'milk the fans' and 'wing it'.


I thought Jk Rowling did a good job with the original Potter books and movies. She started with the goal of creating a series that aged with it’s fans and I think she did a good(not perfect) job of fulfilling that goal.

The Breaking Bad universe has also been excellent from start to finish, including the spinoff movie and better call Saul series.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> What the hell kind of logic are you spouting? Me being blunt about my feelings on the ST does not suddenly undo my point, that shit does not even make sense.
> 
> I split your posts because that's how I make my posts you presumptuous doofus. I find it easier to split them up to reply to each part instead of making one giant paragraph replying to another giant paragraph.
> 
> ...


The OT was well regarded for transforming the cinematic experience. Technically the movies were masterclass in execution and imagination but they were never regarded as storytelling marvels.  

The Original trilogy deserves the utmost credit for the “mess” it left behind. An entitled and toxic fandom that needs things their way or else they will angrily wave their fists at the sky.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 25, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The OT was well regarded for transforming the cinematic experience. Technically the movies were masterclass in execution and imagination but they were never regarded as storytelling marvels.


They were never regarded as jokes by the majority either which is what you were arguing.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> The Original trilogy deserves the utmost credit for the “mess” it left behind. An entitled and toxic fandom that needs things their way or else they will angrily wave their fists at the sky.


Most of those "toxic fans" were a fringe minority of pompous dipshits who went overboard in their hate of the PT, who today have mostly morphed in with the recent groups of assholes who only came into the franchise from the Sequels(as few as they are to the vast majority of fans who were there before) that only care about shit like "muh relyo", "muh female empowerment", or "muh diversity", and spend most of their time saying the same shit you are.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> *They were never regarded as jokes by the majority either which is what you were arguing.*
> 
> Most of those "toxic fans" were a fringe minority of pompous dipshits who went overboard in their hate of the PT, who today have mostly morphed in with the recent groups of assholes who only came into the franchise from the Sequels(as few as they are to the vast majority of fans who were there before) that only care about shit like "*muh relyo*", "*muh female empowerment*", or "*muh diversity*", and spend most of their time saying the same shit you are.


The OT was always regarded as shallow in it’s attempt of telling a story and it’s characters, which is what I’m using as support for my argument which is; that the people pissed off about the ST are holding their childhood fantasy tale to standards that never existed in the first place.


All three of those quotes I’m firmly against, I detest SJW pandering.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Apr 25, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Of course people who never actually had something mean anything to them on a deep and fundamental level would lack the understanding to see how this hate and disappointment, born of love, is necessary.



"Born out of love"? Try born out of obsession, an irrational sense of tribalism, and cult-like behavior. The kind of emotions spawned not from an unconditional love of something, but from a invented sense of self-validation that they're "better/smarter than everyone else" for liking/following a certain thing.

I grew up with the Star Wars films. The Star Wars written _by _George Lucas, and I love them for what they are. I love the Clone Wars TV series. I also like the Sequel Trilogy, even with its flaws, and I am enjoying the stories we've been getting from the new canon thus far. In many ways, it is inspiring for me.

But I also grew up with many other franchises and stories as well, and I am still adding new stories I like to that long list. I do find disappointments here and there, but there are so many other stories and series to enjoy that I don't feel a need to obsess over them, and I can simply move on.

But I suppose you'd never be able to understand that.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 25, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> I thought Jk Rowling did a good job with the original Potter books and movies. She started with the goal of creating a series that aged with it’s fans and I think she did a good(not perfect) job of fulfilling that goal.
> 
> The Breaking Bad universe has also been excellent from start to finish, including the spinoff movie and better call Saul series.



Fair enough, but Rowling does a lot of those things too. 



Kisame3rd14 said:


> The OT was always regarded as shallow in it’s attempt of telling a story and it’s characters, which is what I’m using as support for my argument which is; that the people pissed off about the ST are holding their childhood fantasy tale to standards that never existed in the first place.
> 
> 
> All three of those quotes I’m firmly against, I detest SJW pandering.



Was it though? I glanced at wikipedia to check out some of the reviews and the first one I saw was Ebert praising the narrative.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 25, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The OT was always regarded as shallow in it’s attempt of telling a story and it’s characters, which is what I’m using as support for my argument which is; that the people pissed off about the ST are holding their childhood fantasy tale to standards that never existed in the first place.


By whom? You have provided zero evidence to support your claim.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> All three of those quotes I’m firmly against, I detest SJW pandering.


And yet you defend the fans who are for them, Irony.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Fair enough, but Rowling does a lot of those things too.
> 
> 
> 
> Was it though? I glanced at wikipedia to check out some of the reviews and the first one I saw was Ebert praising the narrative.


Read his entire review. He praises the narrative for being simple and easy to watch, he is blown away by the contrast of the deep imagination that went into the character designs and the settings to that of the narrative being about the Journey.

*
“The movie relies on the strength of pure narrative, in the most basic storytelling form known to man, the Journey. All of the best tales we remember from our childhoods had to do with heroes setting out to travel down roads filled with danger, and hoping to find treasure or heroism at the journey's end.” *Ebert, 1977.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> By whom? You have provided zero evidence to support your claim.
> 
> And yet you defend the fans who are for them, Irony.


The most decorated and renowned movie critic of all time praised it for being simple.

”The movie works so well for several reasons, and they don't all have to do with the spectacular special effects. The effects are good, yes, but great effects have been used in such movies as "" and "" without setting all-time box-office records. No, I think the key to "Star Wars" is more basic than that.

The movie relies on the strength of pure narrative, in the most basic storytelling form known to man, the Journey.”


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 25, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The most decorated and renowned movie critic of all time praised it for being simple.



>only 1 critic
"Muh decorated" means shit because Ebert had his contrarian views as well that did not go with the public so acting as if what he says reflects the general public is a shit tier argument mate. 

But what is worse is that what you posted after only proved MY point.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> ”The movie works so well for several reasons, and they don't all have to do with the spectacular special effects. The effects are good, yes, but great effects have been used in such movies as "" and "" without setting all-time box-office records. No, I think the key to "Star Wars" is more basic than that.
> 
> The movie relies on the strength of pure narrative, in the most basic storytelling form known to man, the Journey.”


He is literally saying exactly what I stated. The OT worked because for all the creativity and care put into it the simple but effective narrative worked in it's favor and helped to make it get across to audiences. This is not him calling it a joke, this is him explaining why SW became as big as it was.

How is this suppose to work in your arguments favor that the ST is the same? My point was that it's not, the Sequels failed when they tried to imitate the OT and instead fucked up what is honestly a basic and hard to screw up narrative.


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## MShadows (Apr 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Fucking pathetic


I thought they were gonna shelf SW for a while? Are they actually gonna make an all female product?


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 25, 2020)

MShadows said:


> I thought they were gonna shelf SW for a while? Are they actually gonna make an all female product?


It's gonna be a Mouse+ show and with how much the Coof has affected sales across all entertainment and the IP itself tanking hard before hand don't expect it to be anything too expansive.


----------



## MartialHorror (Apr 25, 2020)

Yeah I don't really get this train of thought. Ebert is praising Star Wars for its story and characters. It doesn't matter if a story is simple, if it's told well.


----------



## MShadows (Apr 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> It's gonna be a Mouse+ show and with how much the Coof has affected sales across all entertainment and the IP itself tanking hard before hand don't expect it to be anything too expansive.


Oh well, wasn't planning on getting Disney+ anyway. Not gonna waste my money on that. 
It's not like all the relevant content is gonna be on YT anyway within a few days of release


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## Pilaf (Apr 26, 2020)

Didney mad already


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Oh well, wasn't planning on getting Disney+ anyway. Not gonna waste my money on that.
> It's not like all the relevant content is gonna be on YT anyway within a few days of release


It’s like 10 bucks a month and has the best Star Wars program.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah I don't really get this train of thought. Ebert is praising Star Wars for its story and characters. It doesn't matter if a story is simple, if it's told well.


I never argued the OT wasn’t good, my point was the story and it’s characters never had depth.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Star Wars was never a Shakespearean epic in the first place, people who enjoy a good script and nuance in their storytelling looked down upon the OT. To complain about it’s storytelling flaws and poor characterization would be to complain about the presentation of a Big Mac and fries from McDonald’s.





Kisame3rd14 said:


> Shakespeare *is well regarded today* for the depth and complexity of his human characters, Star Wars has never nor will it ever be regarded for those reasons.





Kisame3rd14 said:


> The OT was always regarded as shallow in it’s attempt of telling a story and it’s characters, which is what I’m using as support for my argument which is; that the people pissed off about the ST are holding their childhood fantasy tale to standards that never existed in the first place.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> I never argued the OT wasn’t good, my point was the story and it’s characters never had depth.


Which you are wrong because simplicity does not equal having no depth and nothing Ebert said indicated that.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> It’s like 10 bucks a month and has the best Star Wars program.


Pfft like hell it does.


----------



## MShadows (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> It’s like 10 bucks a month and has the best Star Wars program.


I have episodes 1 through 6 at home so that’s all I really need.

The only modern SW movie that I enjoyed was Rogue One. TFA was okay at first but after they fucked up with TLJ so I don’t ever wanna see any of these stupid sequel movies again.

Solo was boring. Just boring, nothing interesting about it.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> I never argued the OT wasn’t good, my point was the story and it’s characters never had depth.



What constitutes as depth and complexity to you?


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Which you are wrong because simplicity does not equal having no depth and nothing Ebert said indicated that.
> 
> Pfft like hell it does.


Goddamn do you understand how to read?

No, I think the key to "Star Wars" is more *basic* than that.

The movie relies on the strength of pure narrative, in the *most basic storytelling form known to man*, the Journey.”


Mandalorian is the best Star Wars program going right now and that’s not up for debate.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 26, 2020)

Mandolorian

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> What constitutes as depth and complexity to you?


For starters the evil empire doesn’t have to be mindless drones and the emperor would have greater motivations than “unlimited powa”.

Show me something bigger than good vs evil because that just doesn’t exist in the real world. FFS if the emperor had a dead child he wanted to bring back that would be 10x more complex than what we have.

What happened to Luke’s growth from 5 to 6? He goes from whiny brat to super zen over the time skip? Or am I supposed to believe him walking into the cave and seeing Vader just transformed him into the most deadliest duelist in the universe.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 26, 2020)

A good star wars character is like a good indiana jones character. That doesn't mean there's not more complexity and depth in the alt universe books and videogames and stuff, but the original trilogy did a great job with a lot of archetypes by casting likable actors who embodied their archetypes and gave things enough life that it didn't feel like a cliche, it just felt familiar or mythic.

For ex I thought the last jedi's sidequest about the industry of war and how both rebels and the empire are supplying their militaries was too 'real world' for star wars and didn't really fit.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

reiatsuflow said:


> A good star wars character is like a good indiana jones character. *That doesn't mean there's not more complexity and depth in the alt universe books and videogames and stuff, *but the original trilogy did a great job with a lot of archetypes by casting likable actors who embodied their archetypes and gave things enough life that it didn't feel like a cliche, it just felt familiar or mythic.
> 
> *For ex I thought the last jedi's sidequest about the industry of war and how both rebels and the empire are supplying their militaries was too 'real world' for star wars and didn't really fit.*


I shouldn’t have to digest thousands of hours of content to find a character that has more depth than a kiddy pool.


Now that’s a great point, and follows my line of thought that the story shouldn’t be held to high standards if it doesn’t even try to hold itself up to that standard.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Goddamn do you understand how to read?
> 
> No, I think the key to "Star Wars" is more *basic* than that.
> 
> The movie relies on the strength of pure narrative, in the *most basic storytelling form known to man*, the Journey.”


And? Where the hell does this make it devoid of all depth? Ebert is literally stating how such a thing works in the OT's favor and allows it to be easily liked by audiences. That does not suddenly translate to being mindless schlock like Michel bay films. Hell once again all you have is one quote which you yourself are failing to read properly to prove this 'SW was always a joke" narrative that no one but you are trying to sell.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Mandalorian  is the best Star Wars program going right now and that’s not up for debate.


Love how you add "right now" to try to go back on previously stating it was the best SW program period when it still does not beat the two Clone Wars cartoons made back in the Lucas era (hell the recent revival on right now was the best Disney could come up with and even that is suffering in comparison to the previous seasons when Lucas was still the owner) so once again, no, you are wrong.


----------



## Atem (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> He’s literally saying the story works because of how simple it is, there’s nothing you can say to counter that.
> 
> 
> Star Wars man children sure love their Children’s cartoons.


There can be art in simplicity. This is why minimalist stories tend to be so beloved. It's about execution. Quality over quantity.

Over explaining only works in books. Where everything has to be clearly described. Movies or shows are a _visual _medium. Where you can show rather than just telling a person what they should think of it or feel about it.

Say for example in_ No Country For Old Men_. Where there is no ambiguity regarding whether Anton Sugar is a psychopathic murderer. He is obviously evil. They take that idea, and emphasize it. Yet, we have absolutely no idea what made him like that or where he came from. They turn Anton Sugar into a ghostly figure. A force of nature. Something that's more than a man, and a tool of fate.

There is no moral ambiguity. He is evil manifest. The execution of which is so sublime that it matches even the most well-written morally ambiguous character with a clear background.

The journey is art when properly handled. It embodies the ephemeral. The abstract. The eternal conflict between good, and evil. The beginning, middle, and end. Self discovery, and the conclusion of it.

There is beauty, and unknowable otherness in an ideal. Which sets itself apart from reality. That transcends it, and becomes more than we can ever be or understand.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> *There can be art in simplicity. This is why minimalist stories tend to be so beloved. It's about execution. Quality over quantity.*
> 
> Over explaining only works in books. Where everything has to be clearly described. Movies or shows are a _visual _medium. Where you can show rather than just telling a person what they should think of it or feel about it.
> 
> ...





Anomander Rake said:


> There can be art in simplicity. This is why minimalist stories tend to be so beloved. It's about execution. Quality over quantity.
> 
> Over explaining only works in books. Where everything has to be clearly described. Movies or shows are a _visual _medium. Where you can show rather than just telling a person what they should think of it or feel about it.


I never said anything in regards to it’s quality, I said the story and the characters are simple. 

Movies and television can have depth, without over explaining.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> What channel did it come on?


Which did the Mandalorian?


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## Claudio Swiss (Apr 26, 2020)

When the hell being simple somehow means not having depth 
not everything  needs to be some try hard math equation or Shakespearean novel


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> When the hell being simple somehow means not having depth
> not everything  needs to be some try hard math equation or Shakespearean novel


You’re completely off topic


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## Claudio Swiss (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> You’re completely off topic


Nope I’m on topic here Jim


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Nope I’m on topic here Jim


Your reply is literally part of my argument.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Which did the Mandalorian?


Not the channel that ran Billy and Mandy and powerpuff girls.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Not the channel that ran Billy and Mandy and powerpuff girls.


But the channel that shows Micky fucking Mouse


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 26, 2020)

To dispense with the sarcasm the point is that pretending the channel the show aired on determines it just being a "children's cartoon" is idiotic as it goes for the Mandalorian as well which is why your argument is so shitty.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> But the channel that shows Micky fucking Mouse


It’s not on a channel it’s on an app.


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## Claudio Swiss (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Your reply is literally part of my argument.


Which relates to you and @NostalgiaFan debate so 


NostalgiaFan said:


> But the channel that shows Micky fucking Mouse


and Kim possible and various Disney classic cartoons


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> It’s not on a channel it’s on an app.


No difference Einstein. Online services are the new channels in that they are replacing TV. Your point is still flawed to high hell.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Which relates to you and @NostalgiaFan debate so
> 
> and Kim possible and various Disney classic cartoons


You didn’t intend it that way.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> No difference Einstein. Online services are the new channels in that they are replacing TV. Your point is still flawed to high hell.


It’s an app with a collection of all one companies IP, that’s not the same as being slotted on a television channel between Mickey Mouse playhouse and another kiddy show. Ironic because the type of adults watching clone wars need to be fed and clothed by their mommy and daddies just like the kids watching the other programs on that channel.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> It’s an app with a collection of all one companies IP, that’s not the same as being slotted on a television channel between Mickey Mouse playhouse and another kiddy show.


Yes it fucking is. In case you forgot Adult Swim is a thing.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Ironic because the type of adults watching clone wars need to be fed and clothed by their mommy and daddies just like the type of kids watching the other programs on that channel.


Your self projection is showing.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Yes it fucking is. In case you forgot Adult Swim is a thing.
> 
> Your self projection is showing.


The show wasn’t on adult swim and you can calm down your forehead vein is showing through your words.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 26, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The show wasn’t on adult swim


Wrong again, it was for a time, before the Disney takeover.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> and you can calm down your forehead vein is showing through your words.


Please your vapid attempts at invoking anger serve to only make me roll my eyes.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 26, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Wrong again, it was for a time, before the Disney takeover.
> 
> Please your vapid attempts at invoking anger serve to only make me roll my eyes.


Wow they aired some re runs at 3am about 10 years later, I’m sorry I don’t waste every second of my life worrying about a kiddy show.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 27, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Wow they aired some re runs at 3am about 10 years later


Nah it was barely a couple of years after it aired and the fact it was shown on a late night adult time period shows it was not considered "kiddy" like you so falsely claim.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> I’m sorry I don’t waste every second of my life worrying about a kiddy show.


Instead you waste it talking shit about said "kiddy show" just to desperately prove your asinine point, and failing all the while.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 27, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Nah it was barely a couple of years after it aired and the fact it was shown on a late night adult time period shows it was not considered "kiddy" like you so falsely claim.
> 
> Instead you waste it talking shit about said "kiddy show" just to desperately prove your asinine point, and failing all the while.


The information I have in front of me says August 17th 2013.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 27, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The information I have in front of me says August 17th 2013.


So proving my point?


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 27, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> So proving my point?


Did the show not become available in 2003?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Apr 27, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> He’s literally saying the story works because of how simple it is, there’s nothing you can say to counter that.
> 
> 
> Star Wars man children sure love their Children’s cartoons.



Star Wars is about as simple as the Iliad or Le Morte De Arthur.



Kisame3rd14 said:


> It’s an app with a collection of all one companies IP, that’s not the same as being slotted on a television channel between Mickey Mouse playhouse and another kiddy show. Ironic because the type of adults watching clone wars need to be fed and clothed by their mommy and daddies just like the kids watching the other programs on that channel.



Alright, ignoring how utterly retarded it is to claim Nielson ratings have more value than hits and that television is going to remain relevant for much longer....The comment about clone wars fans being NEETs is low grade trolling at its best.

*snip*



Anomander Rake said:


> There can be art in simplicity. This is why minimalist stories tend to be so beloved. It's about execution. Quality over quantity.
> 
> Over explaining only works in books. Where everything has to be clearly described. Movies or shows are a _visual _medium. Where you can show rather than just telling a person what they should think of it or feel about it.
> 
> ...



Adding to what Elric said, Rio Bravo is one of the greatest Westerns ever filmed, The Wizard of Oz being one of the one hundred greatest films ever made and both fit the example you're giving. Hell,  even the Searchers _which is morally complex _and also in the top five greatest movies ever made.._is pretty fucking black and white.
_
John Wayne's actions..blur the lines between good and evil but the movie itself doesn't justify it and he's portrayed as just as reprehensible and evil as the Comanches whom he pursues. In the end he walks out of the homestead and vanishes into the desert because he knows there's no place for him in that happy home because of the shit he did.

Star Wars is in the same vein..Anakin Skywalker and Ethan Edwards are of the same mold. As you said, its perfection in simplicity, complexity without ambiguity.

Shame Kisame is too big brained to comprehend it.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 27, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Alright, ignoring how utterly retarded it is to claim Nielson ratings have more value than hits and that television is going to remain relevant for much longer


Who the fuck said that lol



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Star Wars is in the same vein..Anakin Skywalker and Ethan Edwards are of the same mold. As you said, its perfection in simplicity, complexity without ambiguity.


Anakin is the character with the most depth in the story, but it’s a shame it took 25 years between trilogies for fans to find this out on the big screen.


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## Ren. (Apr 27, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Who the fuck said that lol
> 
> 
> Anakin is the character with the most depth in the story, but it’s a shame it took 25 years between trilogies for fans to find this out on the big screen.


Anakin in the movies is shit.
But the sequels are now masterpieces vs the new movies.

Also, the simplest form of art is the most complex as hard as it sounds it is the truth.

The only thing that I love about Disney now is their stocks.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 27, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Anakin in the movies is shit.
> But the sequels are now masterpieces vs the new movies.
> 
> Also, the simplest form of art is the most complex as hard as it sounds it is the truth.


He’s the only character with depth, I’m not talking about his whimsical dialogue.


That may be true for still art but certainly not motion pictures nor television programs.


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## Ren. (Apr 27, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> He’s the only character with depth, I’m not talking about his whimsical dialogue.
> 
> 
> That may be true for still art but not motion pictures nor television programs.


You are saying that because you already knew he became Dark Vader and I kind of disagree Dark Sideous is the most complex character in the sequels and executed well.

On the motion picture stuff, not really, after all, that is just 24 static pictures shown in a s.
Kubric did not take so many shots because he wanted something uber complex but because he wanted to be close to perfection.

To make my point, what do you remember after watching, the complex stuff, no you remember the most basic things but also those are the most universal.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 27, 2020)

Ren. said:


> You are saying that because you already knew he became Dark Vader


That doesn’t invalidate the opinion.


Ren. said:


> I kind of disagree Dark Sideous is the most complex character in the sequels and executed well.


Do you disagree or not, what does kind of disagree mean?

Sideous is the most shallow of all characters from any of the trilogies, he’s literally bad for the sake of being bad. Even Hitler made an attempt at art and had a good relationship with his dog.


Ren. said:


> On the motion picture stuff, not really, after all, that is just 24 static pictures shown in a s.
> Kubric did not take so many shots because he wanted something uber complex but because he wanted to be close to perfection.


a s?

Kubric is a terrible example if we’re going to talk about simple forms of storytelling and characterization.


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## Ren. (Apr 27, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Kubric is a terrible example if we’re going to talk about simple forms of storytelling and characterization.


Simple as in design not in notion.

Different aspects as I already said simplest form is the most complex.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> a s?


Second.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> That doesn’t invalidate the opinion.


I does because it is not stand alone.

Remove all the films and just watch the first 3 released.

Now do the same but only the prequel ... Anakin is shit, Dark Vader does not need Anakin.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Do you disagree or not, what does kind of disagree mean?


I mean I am not 100%.

Anakin is not great because he is made bipolar by the execution, how he was executed is so garbage. 


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Sideous is the most shallow of all characters from any of the trilogies, he’s literally bad for the sake of being bad


He is bad because he wants power, been good will not give him that, he does need a reason for been bad, Anakin had none how he was executed.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 27, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Simple as in design not in notion.


Off topic.


Ren. said:


> Anakin is not great because he is made bipolar by the execution, how he was executed is so garbage.


His story has the most depth, that’s all I’m arguing.


Ren. said:


> He is bad because he wants power, been good will not give him that, he does need a reason for been bad, Anakin had none how he was executed.


There is no complexity or depth in “being bad for power”. He’s one note, he doesn’t have a background presented in the movies he’s just complete unworldly evil. Now I understand that’s by design but that doesn’t give it an excuse when someone states that the character lacks depth.

 The entire story suffers the same problem and that’s ok because it’s entertaining and you(as a viewer) don’t need to think too hard to enjoy it. My entire argument is the fanatics have taken it too far and held it to standards that never existed in the first place.


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## Ren. (Apr 27, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> His story has the most depth, that’s all I’m arguing.


ok, It did not feel that way because it was badly executed, on paper you are right!


Kisame3rd14 said:


> There is no complexity or depth in “being bad for power”.


And be complex for the sake it is?
Why does he need a purpose when the purpose is power and the fastest way was the dark side.
Explain to me why did Anakin choose the Dark side, power is not, also a fast way to power but Palpaine's scoop was power, Anakin was a gamble to save someone and well he kills that someone by doing exactly that.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> The entire story suffers the same problem and that’s ok because it’s entertaining and you(as a viewer) don’t need to think too hard to enjoy it.


When I was young yes, now I can watch that but I will not talk after that because there is no purpose to that if it is only entertaining.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> My entire argument is the fanatics have taken it too far and held it to standards that never existed in the first place.


Sorry but that is half of the equation, yes the first 3 films are that good, the second ones are just ok.

But the last ones are popcorn flips and not even good ones, made only for entertainment and for whom exactly? That is important.

Tell me for whom you make a film and tell the force is female? when the demographics for the film was male.
And how the fuck is an abstract force female or male?

You make all the badass characters females but in fact they have no femininity, Ray Shitwalker is just a male an Arnold with a vagina and shit of the basis of the entire series the original characters similar how now Boruto does.

Well if you make a fandom with something like the first 3 movies and then you include uber females, make Leia one of the badest females in film literally supergirl because she is a woman, make the main protagonist a has been, make the new protagonist a Mary Sue similar to how Superman is a Gerry Stu, then expect backlash.

You go from 2B to what Han Solo did aka -money.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 27, 2020)

Ren. said:


> *And be complex for the sake it is?*
> Why does he need a purpose when the purpose is power and the fastest way was the dark side.
> Explain to me why did Anakin choose the Dark side, power is not, also a fast way to power but Palpaine's scoop was power, *Anakin was a gamble to save someone and well he kills that someone by doing exactly that*.


No not for the sake of it, he should be complex because he’s the primary antagonist of all three trilogies.

Anakins fall to the dark side was sympathetic because an ordinary person will understand what it’s like to want to prevent the death of a loved one. 


Ren. said:


> But the last ones are popcorn flips and not even good ones, made only for entertainment *and for whom exactly*? That is important.


Children, as all the other projects were.


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## Ren. (Apr 27, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Children, as all the other projects were.


Children from the 70ties are not the same as the ones now.

Also it might have had that demographic of children but now it needs to include those children that now are 50+. If you really want to make money.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> No not for the sake of it, he should be complex because he’s the primary antagonist of all three trilogies.


Been an antagonist is an effect not a scope.



Kisame3rd14 said:


> Anakins fall to the dark side was sympathetic because an ordinary person will understand what it’s like to want to prevent the death of a loved one.


By killing that person himself, how exactly was he sympathetic or we should be when he was killing children, did he forget his own were "dead" fate or not?
I understand killing the persons in power but what he did was going Joker for no reason.

Again the execution was wrong, if he wanted to blame fate then after he was used by Emperor he should have either killed himself because he failed or kill the Emperor.

I know he tried in the extended universe but I wanted to see that in a film.


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## Ren. (Apr 27, 2020)

To end this discussion.


The Sequels were not bad, the original were that good.

Anakinn was not bad, Dark Vader was too good.

About the Disney garbage, I would have given two shit if they started fresh but the fact they destroyed Luke, Leia, Hans is what the fans didn't want.

Make a new timeline in 100 years after Luke was dead and we had no problem with them.

Baiting old SW fans for 4B$ is cheap for Disney and now they make scraps.

It is like making Rolex with the cheapest materials.

And the number one rule of commerce, if you blame your customers then your product is shit.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 27, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Did the show not become available in 2003?


TCW is the cgi one which aired after the 2003 version.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 27, 2020)

This is giving me flashback to the game of thrones thread with Kisame3rd14 actually defending the shit it became.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 27, 2020)

Can't wait!  Now I get to do a true marathon


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 27, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> This is giving me flashback to the game of thrones thread with Kisame3rd14 actually defending the shit it became.


Fucking really?


Even more reason to not take his opinion seriously.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 27, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Baiting old SW fans for 4B$ is cheap for Disney and now they make scraps.


They made $4.8 billion from the movies but due to other factors Star Wars is valued at $70 billion which is a $66billion return. I’d say they’re quite comfortable with how much they sold you out for.


ClandestineSchemer said:


> This is giving me flashback to the game of thrones thread with Kisame3rd14 actually defending the shit it became.


It reminds me of that too, both series suffered from their fans being entitled man children. However, the hate for Star Wars actually has some merit because for the most part the people who shit on it are devoted and have spent thousands of hours drooling over the EU.

Where as most of the hate from thrones comes from echo chambers like reddit, where people are circle jerking theories they had no part in imagining.

Just like Game of Thrones, Star Wars has netted their respective benefactors massive amounts of money, so the whiny outcry is negligible.


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## Sinoka (Apr 30, 2020)




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## InfinityG (Apr 30, 2020)

Will get on blu ray when it comes out. Have heard a lot of negative things about it but my friends who saw it on the theater liked it so i might like it aswell. I did like the first two in the new trilogy after all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Apr 30, 2020)

I maintain that Midnight's Edge will feel sad once Kennedy is gone from Star Wars because they will have no more content to recycle for the thousandth time.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 30, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I maintain that Midnight's Edge will feel sad once Kennedy is gone from Star Wars because they will have no more content to recycle for the thousandth time.



Media thrives on bad news, so star wars sucking is good for them.
How many articles could they even write about a good star wars movie.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 30, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Media thrives on bad news, so star wars sucking is good for them.
> How many articles could they even write about a good star wars movie.



It's not just that they're focusing on Star Wars... it's that almost everything they will say in one of these videos was something they already said in about a dozen other videos (same with Star Trek). I swear there was even a period of multiple "The Humiliation of Kathleen Kennedy" videos, where they took the same audio from a previous one, copied it... and added one or two new sentences to justify a new one... I also struggle to take their claims of being 'unbiased' seriously, but admittedly it's kind of hard to do an entertaining channel and not feed into the culture war.  

I used to be a big fan of them too. I still occasionally watch their videos, but only if the topic interests me.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 30, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> It's not just that they're focusing on Star Wars... it's that almost everything they will say in one of these videos was something they already said in about a dozen other videos (same with Star Trek). I swear there was even a period of multiple "The Humiliation of Kathleen Kennedy" videos, where they took the same audio from a previous one, copied it... and added one or two new sentences to justify a new one... I also struggle to take their claims of being 'unbiased' seriously, but admittedly it's kind of hard to do an entertaining channel and not feed into the culture war.
> 
> I used to be a big fan of them too. I still occasionally watch their videos, but only if the topic interests me.



They will continue recycling their content until people stop rewarding them for it with views and move on to other content creators.
There is no lack of them this days.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 30, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> They will continue recycling their content until people stop rewarding them for it with views and move on to other content creators.
> There is no lack of them this days.



Yeah that's just the way it goes.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 30, 2020)

The decision regarding Galaxy's edge was fairly understandable. Disney likes to milk things so there are indeed more Star Wars films in the future then in the past. And increasing the youth market is reasonable enough. 

But of course this idea hinges entirely on the sequel trilogy actually being good. And it wasn't. So the whole plan quickly collapses due to it. There are indeed more Star Wars films in the future but the sequel trilogy proved those movies will be a step down and this less worthy to represent.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 30, 2020)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> The decision regarding Galaxy's edge was fairly understandable. Disney likes to milk things so there are indeed more Star Wars films in the future then in the past. And increasing the youth market is reasonable enough.
> 
> But of course this idea hinges entirely on the sequel trilogy actually being good. And it wasn't. So the whole plan quickly collapses due to it. There are indeed more Star Wars films in the future but the sequel trilogy proved those movies will be a step down and this less worthy to represent.


The demographic they’re looking to appease isn’t on the internet whining about it. There will be new fans made from this era that won’t even give the OT a chance due to the old graphics.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 30, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The demographic they’re looking to appease isn’t on the internet whining about it. There will be new fans made from this era that won’t even give the OT a chance due to the old graphics.


Wrong, this trilogy failed to garner younger fans which will bite it in the ass in longevity. Whatever fans it has almost entirely live on the internet nowadays, not off it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 30, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Wrong, this trilogy failed to garner younger fans which will bite it in the ass in longevity. Whatever fans it has almost entirely live on the internet nowadays, not off it.


Where are your numbers on that? The demographics that they want aren’t old enough to post on forums or “live on the internet” outside of their kiddy YouTube channel where they watch other kids build legos.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 30, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Where are your numbers on that?


Toy sells and the disastrous theme park of Galaxy Edge for one. Along with the overall decreases in the viewing audiences of each film in the ST.

Even other Mainstream News Articles have noted this

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-struggling-to-win-over-the-marvel-generation


Kisame3rd14 said:


> The demographics that they want aren’t old enough to post on forums or “live on the internet” outside of their kiddy YouTube channel where they watch other kids build legos.


>honestly believing kids nowadays do not post on YouTube and the internet

How new are you?


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 30, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Toy sells and the disastrous theme park of Galaxy Edge for one. Along with the overall decreases in the viewing audiences of each film in the ST.
> 
> Even other Mainstream News Articles have noted this
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-struggling-to-win-over-the-marvel-generation


Galaxies edge was only a failure because of the poor execution, had they held their horses and had the big “experience” ride open from the launch then they would be fine. Instead they opted to open in two separate installments, which left a lot of fans feeling they didn’t get the same bang for their buck. Also, since when are we using Disney World guests statistics as a metric for kids interest in a franchise? Last I checked, children don’t book trips to Disney World nor do they dictate the schedule their parents decide to take them.

I’d ask you if you even bothered to read the article but I know you didn’t because; A, the statistics links are blocked behind a paywall and B, they are comparing the 2nd and 3rd movie’s toy sales to the first movie of the sequel trilogy and it’s a no brainer that the movie that comes out after the longest delay takes in the most merch sales.


NostalgiaFan said:


> >honestly believing kids nowadays do not post on YouTube and the internet
> 
> How new are you?



Children post on YouTube, can’t argue against that, but what metric are you using to back your claim? “I’ve seen a lot of people not like the movies” doesn’t tell me anything when YOU clearly don’t like the movies and YOU are most likely to end up down a rabbit hole that most agrees with your sentiment. But I’ve gone off on a tangent, Disney is shooting for kids 5-12 that couldn’t care less about “bad writing”, they’re just in it for the experience.


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## NostalgiaFan (Apr 30, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Galaxies edge was only a failure because of the poor execution, had they held their horses and had the big “experience” ride open from the launch then they would be fine.


Evidence?


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Instead they opted to open in two separate installments, which left a lot of fans feeling they didn’t get the same bang for their buck.


Implying they even had much fans coming in to begin with for that to matter much.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Also, since when are we using Disney World guests statistics as a metric for kids interest in a franchise? Last I checked, children don’t book trips to Disney World nor do they dictate the schedule their parents decide to take them.


The only reason for parents to even go to theme parks is to bring their kids there Einstein. What the hell did you think otherwise? adults barely do shit around there to begin with, its kids and teens that make up the majority of customers and visitors, and if Kids are not bothering their parents about going to a theme park that excludes almost anything made before the Sequel Trilogy, than that is just another indication how much the younger generation cares about it along with other factors.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> I’d ask you if you even bothered to read the article but I know you didn’t because


I was using it as an example of even the mainstream mentioning how SW is falling out with the younger crowd.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> A, the statistics links are blocked behind a paywall and B, they are comparing the 2nd and 3rd movie’s toy sales to the first movie of the sequel trilogy and it’s a no brainer that the movie that comes out after the longest delay takes in the most merch sales.


Except moron the toy sells of even TFA at their max are worse than ROTS which was released over 10 years ago and the rest go below the years in between ROTS and TFA to even worse to the point they are at an all time low even before ROS came out in theaters. That shit has been common knowledge on this thread before and the fact you don't know that shows how out of touch you are.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Children post on YouTube, can’t argue against that, but what metric are you using to back your claim?


What the hell are you using to say otherwise? You have not even bothered posting any sources for your claims and you except me to think you are more credible? don't make me laugh. You stated how kids are into this new trilogy by saying they don't post online when literally everyone and their mother can do that shit easily and if common thought process online is they hated it or just don't give a shit, than you sound like the one who is under a rock.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> “I’ve seen a lot of people not like the movies” doesn’t tell me anything when YOU clearly don’t like the movies and YOU are most likely to end up down a rabbit hole that most agrees with your sentiment.


So by that same logic you are unreliable since you have not posted one bit of evidence stating otherwise and have made clear you are an apologist for these films from your desperate defense of this shit to the point even others like Martial who have tried the "devil's advocate" approach to them think you are being disingenuous.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> But I’ve gone off on a tangent, Disney is shooting for kids 5-12 that couldn’t care less about “bad writing”, they’re just in it for the experience.


And kids either hate it or don't care for it based off of Shitty toy sells, terrible park flops, overall decreases in books and comics buyouts, and loss in film tickets. You have nothing to state the contrary outside of your own bias.


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## MartialHorror (Apr 30, 2020)

I maintain that the merchandising sales would probably go back up if Star Wars started marketing itself towards kids again... which admittedly wouldn't be easy, as times have changed since the 1990's and "Phantom Menace" would probably be PG-13 by todays standards"... as kids are obviously the ones who would buy toys, drag their parents to theme parks, etc.

Regardless of how you feel about gender politics, etc. or whether you think those issues were well written or not, kids aren't really going to get any of that. It's probably why "Return of the Jedi" drew very little controversy despite drawing parallels between the U.S and the Empire during the Vietnam War, which Americans were still touchy about.

I don't know how they'd do it, but maybe it's time to bring the 'PG' rating back to the brand.


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## Unicornsilovethem (May 1, 2020)

I saw this a few days ago. Here's my question.

Did Palpatine survive ep 6, or was it a clone that died?

If he just survived, how did it happen? Did he just fly through space like Leia or did he find himself a ship? Did he make it out of the death star before it exploded, or is some redirected force lightning to the face worse than being at the core of an moon-sixed machine as it is obliterated by explosion?

If he was a clone - why did the clone have the same disfigurement as the real one? He used to look like a regular person. Even if he cloned himself after ep 3, facial scars like that shouldn't show up. Furthermore, probably the most important one: why do the good guys assume he only cloned himself once? He clearly has the technology/spells and the funds to do it again, not to mention a good 30 years without interruption. Was he a complete idiot?


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## Pilaf (May 1, 2020)

I could accept the randomly surviving BS just because of the line in the prequels about the Dark Side being a pathway to unnatural abilities. It's stupid and I'd have preferred more Snoke agency but whatever. They fucked that over. 

Biggest Palpatine plot hole for me was his apparent brain damage. Why fucking tell people you're gonna show up with a huge armada and rule the universe? Just do it. If he'd given them zero prep time he'd have won. Why even involve Kylo and Rey at all? He didn't need them. He was a 120 year old Zombie and doing just fine. If Disney Palpatine had been half as smart as Prequel Palpatine he'd have succeeded.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 1, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Evidence?


My uncle works IT for DisneyWorld, he’s been there 20 years and he’s my source on that.


NostalgiaFan said:


> Implying they even had much fans coming in to begin with for that to matter much.


Are you talking about Disneyworld? Because that’s not the discussion. If you’re talking about Galaxies Edge then you’re sadly mistaken, fast passes for the experience ride were booked until February.


NostalgiaFan said:


> *The only reason for parents to even go to theme parks is to bring their kids there Einstein.* What the hell did you think otherwise? *adults barely do shit around there to begin with, its kids and teens that make up the majority of customers and visitors, and if Kids are not bothering their parents about going to a theme park* that *excludes almost anything made before the Sequel Trilogy, than that is just another indication how much the younger generation cares about it along with other factors.*


No shit it’s for the kids, but the kids don’t dictate the trip. Middle class parents have to save for years for that trip, the kids don’t decide when the trip is being planned nor made.

I’ve been there every year(some years multiple) from ages 5-23, I’m familiar with the demographics.

Like I said, DisneyWorld is something that is planned out and saved for in advance, you won’t see the results of Galaxies Edge for at least three to five years after it’s second installment.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 1, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I was using it as an example of even the mainstream mentioning how SW is falling out with the younger crowd.


That’s not an example, that’s an opinion letter by a reporter that has a bias or agenda. There was no fact based reporting in that entire article besides the point where it measured toy sales against a movie from its own trilogy.


NostalgiaFan said:


> Except moron the toy sells of even TFA at their max are worse than ROTS which was released over 10 years ago and the rest go below the years in between ROTS and TFA to even worse to the point they are at an all time low even before ROS came out in theaters. That shit has been common knowledge on this thread before and the fact you don't know that shows how out of touch you are.


That’s false. 2016 was Star Wars all time high for toy sales.







NostalgiaFan said:


> What the hell are you using to say otherwise? You have not even bothered posting any sources for your claims and you except me to think you are more credible? don't make me laugh. You stated how kids are into this new trilogy by saying they don't post online when literally everyone and their mother can do that shit easily and if common thought process online is they hated it or just don't give a shit, than you sound like the one who is under a rock.


I’m using the only statistics that matter, money. They made 4.4Billion from the box office alone and they bought the franchise for 4billion.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 1, 2020)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> I saw this a few days ago. Here's my question.
> 
> Did Palpatine survive ep 6, or was it a clone that died?
> 
> ...


His spirit was transferred into a clone, the clone body was too weak to handle the power and that was the cause of disfigurement. The machines were tools used to slow the deterioration.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 1, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> I could accept the randomly surviving BS just because of the line in the prequels about the Dark Side being a pathway to unnatural abilities. It's stupid and I'd have preferred more Snoke agency but whatever. They fucked that over.
> 
> Biggest Palpatine plot hole for me was his apparent brain damage. Why fucking tell people you're gonna show up with a huge armada and rule the universe? Just do it. If he'd given them zero prep time he'd have won. Why even involve Kylo and Rey at all? He didn't need them. He was a 120 year old Zombie and doing just fine. If Disney Palpatine had been half as smart as Prequel Palpatine he'd have succeeded.


Death Star 1 & 2


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## MartialHorror (May 1, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> I could accept the randomly surviving BS just because of the line in the prequels about the Dark Side being a pathway to unnatural abilities. It's stupid and I'd have preferred more Snoke agency but whatever. They fucked that over.
> 
> Biggest Palpatine plot hole for me was his apparent brain damage. Why fucking tell people you're gonna show up with a huge armada and rule the universe? Just do it. If he'd given them zero prep time he'd have won. Why even involve Kylo and Rey at all? He didn't need them. He was a 120 year old Zombie and doing just fine. If Disney Palpatine had been half as smart as Prequel Palpatine he'd have succeeded.



I'm still not sure if Snoke was his own entity or if he was literally an empty shell being controlled by Palpatine. I'd assume it was the latter, because farming snokes seems broken as fuck. 

But then again, prequel-Palpatine's motives have never made that much sense to me. He keeps Anakin around even after acknowledging that Anakin will surpass him one day. It seems like he was just begging to get himself off'ed in the long run.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 1, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> My uncle works IT for DisneyWorld, he’s been there 20 years and he’s my source on that.


Uh huh and yet despite you supposedly having someone close working there you can't post any evidence of that being the case outside of just saying "know someone who works there"? Color me unconvinced.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Are you talking about Disneyworld? Because that’s not the discussion.


Hello earth to moron, all theme parks are predominantly filled with kids and teens. It's a not a Disney only thing. Also when the hell did you decide DisneyWorld was not the discussion? you were the first one to mention it by name Sherlock.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> If you’re talking about Galaxies Edge then you’re sadly mistaken, fast passes for the experience ride were booked until February.


And yet it flopped on it's opening telling us otherwise or saying that the number of people "booked' was not high enough to account for the entire park.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> No shit it’s for the kids, but the kids don’t dictate the trip. Middle class parents have to save for years for that trip, the kids don’t decide when the trip is being planned nor made.


But it's the kids whose interest in going to a theme park that decides if the Parents want them there or not. Do you seriously think most people who go to buy tickets to places like Disneyland and other theme parks are just adults who do not bring there kids along? and just what the hell are you even trying to say by going through this argument, that the real younger fans of the Sequels are hiding at home so we just believe they are there and going to end up like Prequel fans even though the sells and date show them to be turning away from SW in general in favor of stuff like the MCU? Pardon me if that does not sound likely.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> I’ve been there every year(some years multiple) from 5-23, I’m familiar with the demographics.
> 
> Like I said, DisneyWorld is something that is planned out and saved for in advance, you won’t see the results of Galaxies Edge for at least three to five years after it’s second installment.


Lots of yada yada optimistic hogwash the fact that people were outright LAID OFF for how badly Galaxies Edge was doing.





"not see the results for a few years"? the results have already been shown and Galaxies edge is a disaster.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> That’s not an example, that’s an opinion letter by a reporter that has a bias or agenda. There was not fact basing reporting in that entire article besides the point where it measured toy sales against a movie from its own trilogy.


Excuses me since when the hell did fucking "Bloomberg" news have a bias and agenda against Disney and SW? The whole reason I used them was because they are the kind of news site that would shit on "toxic" fans who disliked the new movies in defense of Disney and if you bothered to actually read the article you would see they are acting like something is wrong and SW should be doing better, as if the idiots don't even know the answer. I used them because their bias IN FAVOR of the Sequels, not against them, which is why it says something when even they are talking about how badly SW is doing with younger audiences now.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> That’s false. 2016 was Star Wars all time high for toy sales.


Uh dude, Your article is saying sells are DOWN, not up, and I can't even read more than half of it without having an obnoxious ad pop up and tell me to sign in. So you picked a shit article to prove me "False".

Especially when other date pages say otherwise in that 2016 was down from the last year, not up.





> Disney’s remarks mirror the numbers Hasbro reported for its partner brands. *Star Wars merchandise sales have been declining ever since October 2016* (remember that Disney’s fiscal year ends in September).
> *But not only merchandise seems to be affected, since Star Wars book sales and comic book sales are also down*. So Star Wars as a whole seems to be in decline at the moment.



Same site makes a detailed article on how SW ST sales in general, even during TFA, only get barely up to ROTS at best and stay well below at most



 so  at 2016 being an all time high.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> I’m using the only statistics that matter, money. They made 4.4Billion from the trilogy and they bought the franchise for 4billion.


And like that you show how little you know about making profits. Newsflash Einstein, you don't spend 4 billion just to make barely more than what you spent, especially when you paid even more just to make and market the shit you bought. Same shit as to why Solo was a bomb despite making more than it's production cost because it needed to make even, Disney got back only .4bilion for a franchise they paid ten times that to get, and a hell of a lot more to distribute. Would not be surprising if the overall cost to buy and make new SW films, toys, books, comics, games, upped it to the 5 or 6 billion range instead, making that 4.4billion not only well below what they bought it for but still under cash to make up for what they lost.

"muh statistics" Statistics say this franchise is in the gutter, especially with young fans.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 1, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> /yourcareer


>implying








Learn to read.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 1, 2020)

Market Research firm vs google trends and statements from a company that doesn’t release sales numbers....


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## NostalgiaFan (May 1, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Market Research firm vs google trends and statements from a company that doesn’t release sales numbers....


Actual facts and date from a well known researcher on sales numbers vs ambiguous statement from some one off news article that you can't even see unless you sign on.....


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 1, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Actual facts and date from a well known researcher on sales numbers vs ambiguous statement from some one off news article that you can't even see unless you sign on.....


Bloomberg news is one of, if not the most reliable business research website there is, NPD Group is the 8th largest market research company in the world that are quoted on every major Domestic Journalism website.

You’re using trends that mean jack shit in terms of finding an overall number and a graphic that looked like it was ripped from the 3rd page in google images.

The debate is over, you’re a fraud.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 1, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Bloomberg news is one of, if not the most reliable business research website there is


Did you not just fucking call them bias and unusable when I used one of their articles to talk about how even some of the more favorable news sites to Disney SW is saying they are losing younger audiences? Now they are reliable whenever it fits your argument? Fucking 


Kisame3rd14 said:


> NPD Group is the 8th largest market research company in the world that are quoted on every major Domestic Journalism website.


More yada yada, care to explain where the actual source showing 2016 being "an all time high" is in that article exactly? Because if it turns out to be lower than what 2005 had than you will have some explaining to do.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> You’re using trends that mean jack shit in terms of finding an overall number and a graphic that looked like it was ripped from the 3rd page in google images.


And you're using vague fucking quotes without any real source to them. I'll take actual date from an experienced researcher over that thank you very much.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> The debate is over, I'm a fraud.


FFYI


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## Pilaf (May 2, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> But then again, prequel-Palpatine's motives have never made that much sense to me. He keeps Anakin around even after acknowledging that Anakin will surpass him one day. It seems like he was just begging to get himself off'ed in the long run.



Presumably, every Sith in history had to come to terms with that. It's an aspect of the Rule of Two. They understand they'll eventually be replaced. They don't want it but the Dark Side does.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Presumably, every Sith in history had to come to terms with that. It's an aspect of the Rule of Two. They understand they'll eventually be replaced. They don't want it but the Dark Side does.


And Sidious was saying that while forced to confront Yoda. He had still not fully recovered from getting his lightning shoved right back in his face with Mace Windu since it was about only a day since and he was telling Yoda that to let him know even if he kills him Vader will take his place and his power as the chosen one will make him even more powerful than Sidious himself.


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## Mider T (May 2, 2020)

Speaking of Rule of Two...

Two more days until this drops on Disney+


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Who cares lol


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## Mider T (May 2, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Who cares lol


Star Wars fans and those new to it lol


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Star Wars fans and those new to it lol


So about less than the number at galaxy's edge?


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## Mider T (May 2, 2020)

Isn't there an official Star Wars FC, gimme the numbers for that and there you go


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Populated by who?


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## Mider T (May 2, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Populated by who?


Who do you think populates a Fan Club?


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Who do you think populates a Fan Club?


Not an answer.


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## Mider T (May 2, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Not an answer.


Its a dumb question because it's right there in the name, the Fans my man.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Its a dumb question because it's right there in the name, the Fans my man.


It's a dumb answer since you have yet to put a single number for said FC.


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## MartialHorror (May 2, 2020)

This is a random tangent, but it's kind of weird when people mock Disney for Star Wars going on a decline, when they seemingly have... everything else. I was looking at the top 10 2019 films and the only movies they didn't have were "Joker" and "Jumanji" -- and sort of "Spiderman"... It's kind of scary how they can somehow make "The Lion King" remake -- which no one wanted and few people seemed to like -- one of the highest grossing films of all time, but go through all of these problems with Star Wars.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ...Considering Bloomberg business was founded as a blackmail scheme and they've repeatedly admitted too and casually bragged about covering up Chinese Genocides and outright forging figures to back the CCP.
> 
> I'm uncertain how you could say that with a straight face.
> 
> ...


Hence why I never used the source as means of reliable information but a showcase of how badly SW is doing when even those news sites are saying how much kids are moving away from the IP.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 2, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Hence why I never used the source as means of reliable information but a showcase of how badly SW is doing when even those news sites are saying how much kids are moving away from the IP.



The fact that SW sales cratered towards the end of 2016 should have been a cause for alarm..the IP was a juggernaut and Usually the hype around an SW film series means sales, sales and more sales..

Old EU raked in a bil over the prequels, even in stories that had nothing to do with them.


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## Claudio Swiss (May 2, 2020)

I'm surprised this shit still going.
sequel trilogy  was nothing but a failure and will be looked as such and unlike the prequels that were flawed but somewhat enjoyable and gave us legendary memes to this day the sequels will be looked as an example on how not to fuck up a franchise.
just toss this thread into the trash


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 2, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> I'm surprised this shit still going.
> sequel trilogy  was nothing but a failure and will be looked as such and unlike the prequels that were flawed but somewhat enjoyable and gave us legendary memes to this day the sequels will be looked as an example on how not to fuck up a franchise.
> just toss this thread into the trash




I'm uncertain why this thread continues, but if I had to hazard a guess? The defenders of this movie was so desperate they are unable to abandon the thread because ceding an inch ot us would blow out their entire worldview.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ...Considering Bloomberg business was founded as a blackmail scheme and they've repeatedly admitted too and casually bragged about covering up Chinese Genocides and outright forging figures to back the CCP.
> 
> I'm uncertain how you could say that with a straight face.
> 
> ...





> If not the most reliable *business research*





Claudio Swiss said:


> sequel trilogy was nothing but a failure


The trilogy made 400M more than the entire franchise was purchased for so you’re objectively wrong.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The trilogy made 400M more than the entire franchise was purchased for so you’re objectively wrong.


Wrong, it barely made 400M more than the price it took just to buy it and made under the amount in total it made just to produce, market, and ship it out so it was indeed a failure. Stay mad.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2020)

> Shares of  are up 15.6 percent since last year and more than 127 percent since Disney purchased Lucasfilm six years ago today.



Lucasfilms purchase price: $4.05billion(2012)

Lucasfilms estimated value: $70billion(2020)

Numbers talk, bullshit walks.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Making use of the rating system isn't rating every single post I make old, especially when it doesn't fit.


Except it does, because you are literally repeating yourself.


Mider T said:


> The evidence was this conversation we're having, you just suck at either remembering or comprehension.


That's not what evidence is Sherlock. You have yet to post shit to prove your statement.


Mider T said:


> Gunners is right too btw, you aggressively attack people to make them not like the movie


Make nothing, I'm just stating the fact. No one cares.


Mider T said:


> sorry but people like the movie, Disney has made Star Wars money


Wrong, they have lost money.


Mider T said:


> and more material will come out.  Stay mad.


Nah, weather that material comes out or not it ain't improving the Brand anytime in the future. Stay salty.


Mider T said:


> In b4 this post is rated old.


Not my fault you keep using the same blown out argument.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Lucasfilms purchase price: $4.05billion(2012)
> 
> Lucasfilms estimated value: $70billion(2020)
> 
> Numbers talk, bullshit walks.


>no reliable source
>no indication any of that shit came from Nu-Wars anyway
>still no proof that the brand has been made up for the amount it was bought and marketed for

Keep walking pal.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 2, 2020)

Gunners said:


> I think you're taking things too seriously. Practically, do you think I am going to remember the backstory and name of every ant that crawls out of the woodwork?.



Considering the effort you put into it?

Yes.

But we both know you remember me Jio.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> The trilogy made 400M more than the entire franchise was purchased for so you’re objectively wrong.



This is actually fraudulent and Disney whistleblowers have come forward to say the mouse is in the whole to the tune of 8 billion, about half of which is over star wars.

Never mind the Sherman act violations they got up too, to force theatres to knock films down and overplay ep 9.



Mider T said:


> Making use of the rating system isn't rating every single post I make old, especially when it doesn't fit.  The evidence was this conversation we're having, you just suck at either remembering or comprehension.  Gunners is right too btw, you aggressively attack people to make them not like the movie, sorry but people like the movie, Disney has made Star Wars money, and more material will come out.  Stay mad.
> 
> In b4 this post is rated old.
> 
> EDIT: There it is  saltiboi



This is a pretty lame post, if you can't emotionally handle the ratings system or someone disagreeing then you're not really worth considering.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 2, 2020)

"massively profitable"  = needing to perpetrate a vast criminal conspiracy to defraud the stockholders in order to avoid losing face as your trilogy collapses your business.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 2, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Being upset because something you personally dislike has financial success is the definition of salt.



Calling out a criminal conspiracy is hardly "being upset"


----------



## Atem (May 2, 2020)

Gunners said:


> ES wasn't one of your name changes?



Literally a completely different person. How are you this dumb?



Mider T said:


> >When I have no argument about the filmGross I start talking about toy sales
> You're like a knockoff version of Fang



They're far more indictive of whether a film left an impression significant enough that people actually wanted to remember it. Gross income of the film itself is only indicative of a corporation's ability to advertise it. In other words to draw in a crowd, and make them watch it. Whether they actually liked it or not is another thing entirely. Disney has always excelled in that area, and failed miserably everywhere else. They're good at shilling but not actually good in making a quality product people want to relish. They appeal to the consumer mindset. The people who want to just go on a rollercoaster. Not the people who want to enjoy fine art.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2020)

Yet 2016 was just as high as their previous peak in toy sales...


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> Literally a completely different person. How are you this dumb?
> 
> 
> 
> They're far more indictive of whether a film left an impression significant enough that people actually wanted to remember it. Gross income of the film itself is only indicative of a corporation's ability to advertise it. In other words to draw in a crowd, and make them watch it. Whether they actually liked it or not is another thing entirely. Disney has always excelled in that area, and failed miserably everywhere else. They're good at shilling but not actually good in making a quality product people want to relish. They appeal to the consumer mindset. The people who want to just go on a rollercoaster. Not the people who want to enjoy fine art.


And based off how bad their sales were for literally anything else it's indicative of the Fanbase overwhelming disliking the new direction they have taken it.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Yet 2016 was just as high as their previous peak in toy sales...


Wrong


----------



## Atem (May 2, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Yet 2016 was just as high as their previous peak in toy sales...



That's because TFA was the least offensive of the sequel films, and gave people hope. Then TLJ dashed those hopes. Which made them look back, and see that TFA wasn't that great either. Then TROS destroyed those hopes completely making their sales the lowest they have been in the last sixteen years.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2020)

Wow $44million less in toy sales when they’re competing against the MCU, video games and tablets.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Wow $44million less in toy sales when they’re competing against the MCU, video games and tablets.


>he seriously thinks this looks good when fucking Star Wars is making less money than the MCU when they were the top of the line when it came to boys toys for half a century

Never mind that even at it's highest the Sequels did worse than ROTS and continued downwards to the point of doing worse than the years in between.


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## Atem (May 2, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Breaking news: Superhero’s outsell niche fantasy story



>Star Wars
>niche

I don't think you know what that word means. Star Wars has always been popular and huge. It's not some obscure story. 



It even ended up saving Marvel from financial ruin in the past.


----------



## Atem (May 2, 2020)

Also, as Martin Scorsese has said before. The MCU is not cinema. It's an amuesment park ride. A rollercoaster.



Not art. Anathema to it instead.

It's a product made to be consumed, and to oversaturate the market.

Disney hasn't just destroyed Star Wars. It destroyed the artform of filmography, and made it into a cheap gimmick.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 2, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> >Star Wars
> >niche
> 
> I don't think you know what that word means. Star Wars has always been popular and huge. It's not some obscure story.
> ...


Star Wars still to this day has one of the biggest ticket sales in history despite taking place in the 70s where shit was so bad people needed good paying jobs just to take themselves to watch a movie. They watched this one so many times it was constantly re-released for years on end for an unheard of record amount of time. Shit was the exact opposite of "niche".


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## MartialHorror (May 2, 2020)

Yeah I don't get Kisame's underselling of the brand as a whole. Even now, the original Star Wars is the 2nd most selling film in America of all time -- and even the sequels still perform exceptionally well domestically. But I also think mocking it for losing its spot to Marvel is silly, as Marvel is pretty much the most successful thing ever at this point. 

I can't comment too much on merchandising and such, but the problem with the Star Wars sequels is that movies rely so much more on international sales these days. The original trilogy didn't have to worry about offending China, etc.


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## Atem (May 2, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Star Wars still to this day has one of the biggest ticket sales in history despite taking place in the 70s where shit was so bad people needed good paying jobs just to take themselves to watch a movie. They watched this one so many times it was constantly re-released for years on end for an unheard of record amount of time. Shit was the exact opposite of "niche".



And now we got those CCP friendly sequels. You know, for all the "racism" that Gunner likes to complain about he sure likes to ignore how horribly Finn's character was wasted throughout the sequels. And how quick Disney is to bend over to their Chinese overlords. Never forget that Disney censored the fact T'challa was a black man in the Black Panther posters, and brought an end to Rose's romance to Finn because black man bad. To say nothing of the throw in gays they delete for the Chinese approved release.


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## MartialHorror (May 3, 2020)

You know what the biggest surprise about the highest grossing films in America list is -- how well "Jurassic World" did. If you don't think Star Wars can be thoroughly revived, just look at how much that franchise fell.

JP1 -- Over 1 billion dollars
JP2 -- 618 million
JP3 -- 368 million.

By the time that 'trilogy' originally ended, the BO was about 1/3 of the original. But then Jurassic World becomes the 6th highest grossing movie of all time... and that was pretty mediocre. Even its maligned sequel did well. Star Wars just needs the right movie at the right time to catch the box office on fire once more.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> Also, as Martin Scorsese has said before. The MCU is not cinema. It's an amuesment park ride. A rollercoaster.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They’re not in the critical acclaim business they’re in the money making business.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Wow $44million less in toy sales when they’re competing against the MCU, video games and tablets.



Try, they hastened the bankruptcy of Toys R Us by forcing them to buy SW toys no one wanted...but sure


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> You know what the biggest surprise about the highest grossing films in America list is -- how well "Jurassic World" did. If you don't think Star Wars can be thoroughly revived, just look at how much that franchise fell.
> 
> JP1 -- Over 1 billion dollars
> JP2 -- 618 million
> ...



Uh, the bold. Think you should fix that.

Anyway, the better question is whether it should have a sequel at all. Right now it's just a dead horse being paraded around as if it still alive. It is a symbol of how hollow and stale it has become precisely because of that consumerism. People adamantly watch these things despite the fact they're trash. Not unlike the fact people unironically read the Lit-RPG genre, and it has become popular.

It's precisely why people complain about people liking, and supporting these things. Since if a lot of people do? They will keep on making more of these things. Corporations don't care about quality. They care about what makes them more money. The people who are actually interested in becoming invested in a good story will be left behind. Until as Martin Scorsese said we will be stuck with the same thing across the board. The overt familiarity will drive the people utterly bonkers. It was starve them of proper cinema.

Which will lead to the eventual resurgence.



Kisame3rd14 said:


> They’re not in the critical acclaim business they’re in the money making business.



They're not good at that either. They only succeed in getting people to watch the films across the entire globe. They're one hit wonders, and this won't be sustainable as people start to grow out of them. People will want something different, and this market has streamlined everything into being the same stale trite. 

Those children will grow up hating the media they are force-fed, and will seek alternatives. Which will force them to change their tactics. Well, until the same cycle repeats itself.


----------



## Toph (May 3, 2020)

Finally a good Star Wars movie for a change of pace


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> *They're not good at that either*. _They only succeed in getting people to watch the films across the entire globe_.





using so-called "immunity passports"


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## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> using so-called "immunity passports"





Anomander Rake said:


> Uh, the bold. Think you should fix that.
> 
> Anyway, the better question is whether it should have a sequel at all. Right now it's just a dead horse being paraded around as if it still alive. It is a symbol of how hollow and stale it has become precisely because of that consumerism. People adamantly watch these things despite the fact they're trash. Not unlike the fact people unironically read the Lit-RPG genre, and it has become popular.
> 
> ...



I like how you cherry pick my posts, and ignore everything else I say.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

> According to , Scorsese's first 24 feature films earned a lifetime gross of over $1.9 billion.





> The *Marvel Cinematic Universe* series was the highest grossing film franchise in the world as of April 2020, with total *worldwide box office* revenue of 22.55 billion U.S. dollars.


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## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Horo said:


> Finally a good Star Wars movie for a change of pace



Don't forget.





Kisame3rd14 said:


> -snip-



I like how you unironically think that means the MCU has a better filmography than Martin Scorsese.

Money =/= Quality.

It means that Disney is willing enough to bend over for every corner of this planet, and get plowed hard.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

using so-called "immunity passports"

using so-called "immunity passports"


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> Imagine shilling rotten tomatoes this hard. They're the same people who give the latest seasons of Doctor Who glowing reviews, and who are known to purposely fabricate scores or delete reviews to change scores.


I stopped down to your level, I really couldn’t give a shit less about imaginary ratings because every critic has an agenda, the box office doesn’t lie and your man has his panties in a bundle because people aren’t paying blockbuster bucks for his thought provoking art.

His entire lifetime of art has amounted to less than the gross of TFA, find a better source.


----------



## MShadows (May 3, 2020)

Give it a rest guys... No use in arguing over these shitty sequels.


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## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> I stopped down to your level, I really couldn’t give a shit less about imaginary ratings because every critic has an agenda, the box office doesn’t lie and your man has his panties in a bundle because people aren’t paying blockbuster bucks for his thought provoking art.



The box office is not indicative of quality. Otherwise, Saving Private Ryan would be ranked beneath Captain Marvel. It's also a lie to say every critic has an agenda. Only some of them do. Other ones are able to objectively look at the failures, and successes of a film. In terms of story structure, and cohesion. Advertisement, and wide-spread openings across the globe do not equate to a good story.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

I remember when Hugo got slaughtered by Breaking Dawn at the box office.


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> I remember when Hugo got slaughtered by Breaking Dawn at the box office.



Good job proving my point for me in how the box office is not indicative of the quality of a film. Why do you keep noting examples that prove my point for me?


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

Because quality in art is 100% subjective, it is something that can never be measured no matter how many people like or dislike something.

Gross revenue and net profit are not subjective, they are defined. You cannot debate quality, you can debate quantity.


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Because quality in art is 100% subjective, it is something that can never be measured no matter how many people like or dislike something.
> 
> Gross revenue and net profit are not subjective, they are defined. You cannot debate quality, you can debate quantity.



You're using quantity to judge the quality of a film? That's what you were reduced to? And no, story structure can be _objectively _bad. Plot holes. Failure of any research on the writer's part. A refusal to maintain continuity, or any remote sense. How respectful it is to the source material. How effective the actors are in delivering their lines, or improvising. Perhaps even adding to the film in their own way. How effective it is in manipulating the audience, and getting them attached or invested in the story. 

There are so many things in a story you can look at objectively. That can broken. That can break suspension of disbelief.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> You're using quantity to judge the quality of a film? That's what you were reduced to? And no, story structure can be _objectively _bad. Plot holes. Failure of any research on the writer's part. A refusal to maintain continuity, or any remote sense. How respectful it is to the source material. How effective the actors are in delivering their lines, or improvising. Perhaps even adding to the film in their own way. How effective it is in manipulating the audience, and getting them attached or invested in the story.
> 
> *There are so many things in a story you can look at objectively. That can broken. That can break suspension of disbelief.*


I think you had a reading comprehension error. I said Quantity can be debated and Quality can’t, I didn’t say I used one to measure the other.


Yes for one person, but another might not feel the same way. It’s a philosophical flaw to think that every form of storytelling device is weighted the same in every scenario to every consumer. One consumer might not care that the side character was knocked off in a somewhat implausible fashion because that side character never mattered to that consumer in the first place. One consumer might like an abrupt change in pacing or theme, because while they enjoyed the characters they weren’t a fan of the current setting. Etc. etc.


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> I think you had a reading comprehension error. I said Quantity can be debated and Quality can’t, I didn’t say I used one to measure the other.



You literally have been arguing against me when I have only been talking about quality. Then tried to use both the box office, and rotten tomato scores to say the MCU was better than what Martin Scorsese has created. That Breaking Dawn is better than what Martin Scorsese has directed.

When have I ever put emphasis on quantity in this argument? Besides to say that the merchandise wasn't selling well because nobody actually liked the characters in the films enough to want to bring them home with them.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> You literally have been arguing against me when I have only been talking about quality. Then tried to use both the box office, and rotten tomato scores to say the MCU was better than what Martin Scorsese has created. That Breaking Dawn is better than what Martin Scorsese has directed.
> 
> When have I ever put emphasis on quantity in this argument? Besides to say that the merchandise wasn't selling well because nobody actually liked the characters in the films enough to want to bring them home with them.


Money was brought into the debate when the other guys started calling the movies “unsuccessful” due to their own dislike of the franchise. The entire argument started because other people in this thread are unhappy about people having their own opinions on the movies.


----------



## MartialHorror (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> Uh, the bold. Think you should fix that.
> 
> Anyway, the better question is whether it should have a sequel at all. Right now it's just a dead horse being paraded around as if it still alive. It is a symbol of how hollow and stale it has become precisely because of that consumerism. People adamantly watch these things despite the fact they're trash. Not unlike the fact people unironically read the Lit-RPG genre, and it has become popular.
> 
> ...



Whoops, fixed. I've never really agreed with Scorsese's opinions on Marvel because I think it comes down to the filmmakers intent... and people have been saying similar things about sequels and/or blockbusters for years... but the industry is cyclical anyway. The Marvel Cinematic Universe will eventually collapse underneath its own weight, or at least will stumble enough that the franchise will have to be retooled or slow down. It's being an unprecedentedly successful trend, but at the end of the day, comic book movies are always trends. They rise, they fall and something else catches fire.

People put the original trilogy on a pedestal... and I do too... but there was a point where even George Lucas was more interested in merchandising than storytelling. It's an inevitability of franchises. I once looked up the Top 10 highest grossing movies per year and when the original Star Wars was released, there weren't many franchise properties. But every year a Star Wars sequel came out, there was more more and more to where nearly all of the Top 10's are dominated by franchises. In a way, Star Wars was probably just as responsible -- if not moreso -- than Disney.


----------



## MartialHorror (May 3, 2020)

I was reading this article from 2010 and it's funny how much it almost sounds like they're talking about Star Wars now.


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Money was brought into the debate when the other guys started calling the movies “unsuccessful” due to their own dislike of the franchise. The entire argument started because other people in this thread are unhappy about people having their own opinions on the movies.



They are unsuccessful. They failed to create new fans, and a sustainable market. Precisely due to their abysmal quality. Those people who watched it now haven't been invested in it. They grew bored of each film after seeing it. As I said before one hit wonders. Those people won't support the franchise, buy the products or toys, or even remember half the things that happened in the films.

If they continue the trend, and create films in that same vein? All of them will start doing as disastrously as Solo. Since they won't care to watch more of the same thing they already felt nothing about.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> *They are unsuccessful. They failed to create new fans, and a sustainable market*. Precisely due to their abysmal quality. Those people who watched it now haven't been invested in it. They grew bored of each film after seeing it. As I said before one hit wonders. Those people won't support the franchise, buy the products or toys, or even remember half the things that happened in the films.
> 
> If they continue the trend, and create films in that same vein? All of them will start doing as disastrously as Solo. Since they won't care to watch more of the same thing they already felt nothing about.


The 70billion dollar estimated value of the franchise proves the first bolded sentence wrong. The second sentence is yet to be seen, baby Yoda was a top trend for all of 2019.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I was reading this article from 2010 and it's funny how much it almost sounds like they're talking about Star Wars now.


That’s because they have the same notoriously toxic fan base. The PT potentially bullied George Lucas out of the what could have been a bigger twist than “No, I am your father”.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The 70billion dollar estimated value of the franchise proves the first bolded sentence wrong.


And yet they failed to make up for the 4-6 billion they spent on the whole damn thing. Sounds like you got it wrong.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> The second sentence is yet to be seen, baby Yoda was a top trend for all of 2019.


Which means jack shit since Disney barely monopolized on it with any merchandise and ROS underwhelmed at the box office along with everything else SW related going down in sales.


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The 70billion dollar estimated value of the franchise proves the first bolded sentence wrong.



Being able to advertise, and get people to watch a film does not mean you have turned those people who have watched it into fans. It means you're good at advertisement, and wide-spread openings across the globe.



> The second sentence is yet to be seen, baby Yoda was a top trend for all of 2019.



The Mandalorian is the only good thing Disney has actually churned out, and it was made by none of the people who worked on the films. It's a similar case with The Clone Wars except the latter already existed before Disney got ownership.


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> That’s because they have the same notoriously toxic fan base. The PT potentially bullied George Lucas out of the what could have been a bigger twist than “No, I am your father”.



No, this was actually Red Letter Media. A vocal minority that tried to shove their opinion down everyone else's mouth, and made it trending to bash on the prequels. They were patient zero, and made it popular to hate them. The large group of people who actually hated the prequels weren't Star Wars fans, and actual Star Wars fans were forced into a position where if they spoke out against it they would be ostracized for it. So, they just nodded their head and went "yeah, sure." Until the hate died down enough for them to be able to say otherwise.



Shiba D. Inu said:


> The Irishman was boring af and put me to sleep
> and their digital de-aging had some uncanny valley
> 
> hands off MCU, Martin



So, you would rather have garbage akin to Michael Bay provided it gives you a lot of explosions to gawk at? Not everyone has to put an emphasis on overt bullshit, and unsubtle story lines.

The MCU is a trash fire. As I said elsewhere:



			
				Anomander Rake said:
			
		

> The MCU sucks balls.
> 
> It used to be okay but it overstayed its welcome after Infinity War. It suffers the same problem as most comic books do. The inability to allow for a definite conclusion. It will get beaten like a dead horse, and re-imagined for a "broader" audience until just like with the comic books? The characters will become totally unrecognizable.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> Being able to advertise, and get people to watch a film does not mean you have turned those people who have watched it into fans. It means you're good at advertisement, and wide-spread openings across the globe.


That would be fine if they got a 50% return on investment, we’re talking about 1750% return over 8 years. That’s ridiculously successful by every standard there is.


Anomander Rake said:


> The Mandalorian is the only good thing Disney has actually churned out, and it was made by none of the people who worked on the films. It's a similar case with The Clone Wars except the latter already existed before Disney got ownership.


Ok?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> I remember when Hugo got slaughtered by Breaking Dawn at the box office.



By this logic Twilight is a superior movie to Tombstone.

Or the Twilight novels are superior books to the Terror.

That is a premise which is pants on head retarded


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> No, this was actually Red Letter Media. A vocal minority *that tried to shove their opinion down everyone else's mouth*


Ironic.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> By this logic Twilight is a superior movie to Tombstone.
> 
> Or the Twilight novels are superior books to the Terror.
> 
> That is a premise which is pants on head retarded


*More successful.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Money was brought into the debate when the other guys started calling the movies “unsuccessful” due to their own dislike of the franchise. The entire argument started because other people in this thread are unhappy about people having their own opinions on the movies.



1, they are unsuccessful because they led to a toy store chain going bankrupt and devalued the collectors market for star wars toys

2, they necessitated a criminal conspiracy to keep Disney Solvent

3, they caused a  cultural backlash severe enough a Disney CEO had to step down to a reduced capacity

4, snitches to the SEC and people within Shareholder meetings have both gone on record saying the mouse is bloodied





Kisame3rd14 said:


> *More successful.



That is not a metric to quality and that is debatable.

Cosmatos and Simmons have had a far more lasting impact both on their respective genres and your precious consumers in general.

Success is measured by longevity and cultural impact as well as financial gain.

The sequel trilogies by that metric have failed spectacularly



Kisame3rd14 said:


> That would be fine if they got a 50% return on investment, we’re talking about 1750% return over 8 years. That’s ridiculously successful by every standard there is.



Whistleblowers and informants say otherwise


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## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> That would be fine if they got a 50% return on investment, we’re talking about 1750% return over 8 years. That’s ridiculously successful by every standard there is.



Due to Disney bending over to the CCP. Catering to a much larger market across the globe. The influx of consumers willing to watch the same movie hundreds of times over, and the influx of people with political agendas also willing to do the exact same thing.

It has nothing to do with quality, and stop pretending to say that's "not what you mean." When you have made clear that it is by your behavior.



> Ok?



How can that not be any clearer?




Kisame3rd14 said:


> Ironic.



Only a Sith deals in absolutes.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> they caused a cultural backlash severe enough a Disney CEO had to step down to a reduced capacity


This is laughably false. Iger, like many CEO’s stepped down during the corona outbreak because CEOs can’t sell shares. You would know that if you were a shareholder of any relevant capacity.


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> they are unsuccessful because they led to a toy store chain going bankrupt and devalued the collectors market for star wars toys


Toys R Us has been going out of business since the buyout in the middle 00s.


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> snitches to the SEC and people within Shareholder meetings have both gone on record saying the mouse is bloodied


I’m looking at my share prices that have been on a meteoric rise since the acquisition of Lucasfilms and Marvel, and they are telling me something different. I’ll refer to these leakers the next time I’m interested in buying shares of REYN.


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> That is not a metric to quality and that is debatable.


It’s quantified by the fact they churned a massive profit unlike Hugo which netted an $80 million dollar loss.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> Due to Disney bending over to the CCP. Catering to a much larger market across the globe. The influx of consumers willing to watch the same movie hundreds of times over, and the influx of people with political agendas also willing to do the exact same thing.


How dare a publicly traded company make money!


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> How dare a publicly traded company make money!



How dare Disney bend over to a regime that is committing genocide as we speak. How dare Disney disrespect George Lucas, and his wishes. How dare Disney throw away thousands of hours of work, a massive mythology and background for the franchise, and then shuffle it into some "non-canon" alternate universe. Instead giving us their asinine attempts at story telling. As they copy and paste aspects of the Legends Canon they derided. Since they are so deprived of talent all they can do is copy Legends Canon but worse.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Breaking news: Superhero’s outsell niche fantasy story



That's a joke right.


Marvel isn't even in the top ten.
Plus this makes it clear that merchandising is king when it comes to moneymaking.

And disney is the galactic emperor, when you see how much they own in this list.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (May 3, 2020)

So I'll repeate what I said 





Claudio Swiss said:


> I'm surprised this shit still going.
> sequel trilogy  was nothing but a failure and will be looked as such and unlike the prequels that were flawed but somewhat enjoyable and gave us legendary memes to this day the sequels will be looked as an example on how not to fuck up a franchise.
> just toss this thread into the trash


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 3, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> This is laughably false. Iger, like many CEO’s stepped down during the corona outbreak because CEOs can’t sell shares. You would know that if you were a shareholder of any relevant capacity.



Damage control on your part does not negate reality




Kisame3rd14 said:


> Toys R Us has been going out of business since the buyout in the middle 00s.



Funny how unethical business practices on the part of the mouse did in two years what a generation in sales declines could not.



Kisame3rd14 said:


> I’m looking at my share prices that have been on a meteoric rise since the acquisition of Lucasfilms and Marvel, and they are telling me something different. I’ll refer to these leakers the next time I’m interested in buying shares of REYN.



You mean the stock that was declining in October surged in December amid false reports and began to drop off again as more and more reports of falsifying bix office ticket sales and merchandise and park figures came in? And the SEC talked bringing in the FBI for a fucking RICO beef?

Odd flex to admit you did something as bold as making a safe investment in a blue chip during one of the most prosperous periods in the history of the market 

Soccer mom tier investing doesn't impress me.



Kisame3rd14 said:


> It’s quantified by the fact they churned a massive profit unlike Hugo which netted an $80 million dollar loss.



No it really isn't.

That is one aspect of success. Generational influence is equally as important.

Thats why the Searchers and Spartacus are some of the greatest films ever made and Episode 8 and 9 will be remembered in the same vein the Battlestar Galactica reboot is remembered in.



Anomander Rake said:


> How dare Disney bend over to a regime that is committing genocide as we speak. How dare Disney disrespect George Lucas, and his wishes. How dare Disney throw away thousands of hours of work, a massive mythology and background for the franchise, and then shuffle it into some "non-canon" alternate universe. Instead giving us their asinine attempts at story telling. As they copy and paste aspects of the Legends Canon they derided. Since they are so deprived of talent all they can do is copy Legends Canon but worse.



This.

We destroyed the South African economy over far tamer evil than the cartoonish malice we see here.

There should be a congressional panel with the aim to dispossess any company that does business with the CCP, criminalize the Yuan and then jail any American citizen. CEO or journalist who defends China.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> That's a joke right.
> 
> 
> Marvel isn't even in the top ten.
> ...


I’m talking about the box office, brother.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Damage control on your part does not negate reality


It’s not damage control, it’s a fact. Multiple CEOs stepped down at the same time so they could have the option to liquidate if need be during a time of world crisis.


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Funny how unethical business practices on the part of the mouse did in two years what a generation in sales declines could not.


Its highly publicized and well documented that Toys R us wounds were self inflicted, they continued to pay their execs increased salaries while they were accumulating massive debt. The final nail in the coffin was amazon and to a larger extent online shopping which they didn’t have the resources to take advantage of.


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> You mean the stock that was declining in October surged in December amid false reports and began to drop off again as more and more reports of falsifying bix office ticket sales and merchandise and park figures came in? And the SEC talked bringing in the FBI for a fucking RICO beef?
> 
> Odd flex to admit you did something as bold as making a safe investment in a blue chip during one of the most prosperous periods in the history of the market
> 
> Soccer mom tier investing doesn't impress me.


Disney shares didn’t move more than $2 in the month of October...and they go up every single year around holiday time.

I’ve had shares for 14 years now, far before they were considered a blue chip. Also Long Term investing is only done through blue chips, have you taken an economics class after high school? You’re making it painfully obvious that you don’t know what you’re talking about.


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> That is one aspect of success. Generational influence is equally as important.


Movies that lose a shit ton of money don’t have generational influence.


----------



## Pilaf (May 3, 2020)

If we're going to talk about make believe situations in this thread, can't we at least talk about the ones with laser swords and cool aliens?


----------



## MartialHorror (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> No, this was actually Red Letter Media. A vocal minority that tried to shove their opinion down everyone else's mouth, and made it trending to bash on the prequels. They were patient zero, and made it popular to hate them. The large group of people who actually hated the prequels weren't Star Wars fans, and actual Star Wars fans were forced into a position where if they spoke out against it they would be ostracized for it. So, they just nodded their head and went "yeah, sure." Until the hate died down enough for them to be able to say otherwise.



OK, this is where you kind of lose me. If a handful of youtube videos somehow tricked or guilt people into hating on the prequels, then the fandom is either too cowardly or stupid to have the right to talk bad about the sequels -- because it can be argued that the same thing is happening now... and that would be a copout too.


----------



## MartialHorror (May 3, 2020)

"Movies that lose a shit ton of money don’t have generational influence."

-- Er... tell that to "Citizen Kane"... or "Raging Bull"... or "The Thing". Many box office successes fade into obscurity; many box office failures become classics.


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> OK, this is where you kind of lose me. If a handful of youtube videos somehow tricked or guilt people into hating on the prequels, then the fandom is either too cowardly or stupid to have the right to talk bad about the sequels -- because it can be argued that the same thing is happening now... and that would be a copout too.



It didn't trick or guilt the people who actually watched the prequels. It was just a vocal minority that it made popular to hate them. Most of the people who check out Red Letter Media are like people who adore Cinema Sins. They use them to determine whether to actually watch something or not, and take their opinions as holy gospel. Then proceed to regurgitate their opinions about a film they never watched.


----------



## MartialHorror (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> It didn't trick or guilt the people who actually watched the prequels. It was just a vocal minority that it made popular to hate them. Most of the people who check out Red Letter Media are like people who adore Cinema Sins. They use them to determine whether to actually watch something or not, and take their opinions as holy gospel. Then proceed to regurgitate their opinions about a film they never watched.



You can't change public perception of a movie like that, unless it was always there on some level. Otherwise, you're also vindicating "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull", "Godfather 3" and... well... probably "The Last Jedi" too. It's one thing if a movie is misunderstood upon release, but grew in popularity over time. Or a movie that people gradually turned on because of a hype backlash (arguably what TFA is going through). Hell, there's even been at least one instance where a popular film was undone by an even more popular spoof ("Airport").  

But I grew up with the prequels. I was like literally in the age group where I was the target audience. They were polarizing back then and the backlash was already there before RLM. "Fanboys" -- which seemingly exists to make TPM a punchline -- came out prior to RLM. That Clerks TV series ravaged TPM within a year or two of its release (and Kevin Smith LIKED the movie). Even though that 'The People Vs George Lucas' came out afterwards, I doubt you could compile a documentary like that together from scratch within 4 months. Lucas himself acknowledged that TPM didn't meet fan expectations the same year it was released. 

At the most, RLM verbalized what was already there.


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> You can't change public perception of a movie like that, unless it was always there on some level. Otherwise, you're also vindicating "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull", "Godfather 3" and... well... probably "The Last Jedi" too.



All three of those examples have yet to have seen a comeback as great as the prequels. Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, Godfather 3, and TLJ remain reviled. Whereas the prequels have blown up in terms of popularity on the internet, and especially in terms of the memes. Public perception is ludicrously easy to change. It's why propaganda is so insidious and effective.

There are STILL people who think Michael Jackson is a p*d*p****. Despite all the evidence pointing towards his innocence.



> It's one thing if a movie is misunderstood upon release, but grew in popularity over time. Or a movie that people gradually turned on because of a hype backlash (arguably what TFA is going through). Hell, there's even been at least one instance where a popular film was undone by an even more popular spoof ("Airport").



People loved TPM, and it was ludicrously popular. It only became hated after a vocal minority decided to slander it for attention. Then dragged it through the mud, and made a show of it. This to the point that George Lucas had his confidence shattered, and he sold his IP. That vocal minority is also responsible for the trash we have to deal with now.



> But I grew up with the prequels. I was like literally in the age group where I was the target audience. They were polarizing back then and the backlash was already there before RLM.



So was I. The Phantom Menace was beloved until people started nitpicking every innocuous thing about it, and you yourself note that Kevin Smith liked it despite what problems he had with it. It was because of a vocal minority that turned it into a trend to hate it.



> "Fanboys" -- which seemingly exists to make TPM a punchline -- came out prior to RLM.



Lmao, Fanboys was a love letter to Star Wars and it had nothing but admiration for the franchise whilst taking a dump on Star Trek and trekkies in general. Did we watch the same movie?



> That Clerks TV series ravaged TPM within a year or two of its release (and Kevin Smith LIKED the movie).



All the complaints were nonsensical, and required you to ignore the plot of prequels. As well as ignore how it tied in, and would eventually come full circle. It was meant to poke fun at how much nerds can nitpick.



> Even though that 'The People Vs George Lucas' came out afterwards, I doubt you could compile a documentary like that together from scratch within 4 months.



Yeah, you definitely can. Just look at most HBO documentaries lately. They are of equally abysmal quality. I put as much faith in that as I do _Leaving Neverland_. Which is to say none.



> Lucas himself acknowledged that TPM didn't meet fan expectations the same year it was released.



Only because of a vocal minority. Just like Red Letter Media. The prototype for them in fact. As Red Letter Media took those tiny handful of nerds, and exaggerated their grievances for clout.



> At the most, RLM verbalized what was already there.



No, RLM popularized it and made it into a trend. Before then? It was quarantined but then they forgot to maintain social distance.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (May 3, 2020)

RLM was not the first but they sure as hell left the biggest mark which is why they were constantly referenced all the damn time. TPM may of had it's criticisms but they were at most mediocre instead of outright negative as far as the public went. It was many high rank critics in the media, especially the ones going after Jar Jar's actor, that got really venomous. In fact you look up videos where the actors comes out to speak of his story he says the worst hatred came from many in the media while the larger public fans were less so.


----------



## MartialHorror (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> All three of those examples have yet to have seen a comeback as great as the prequels. Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, Godfather 3, and TLJ remain reviled. Whereas the prequels have blown up in terms of popularity on the internet, and especially in terms of the memes. Public perception is ludicrously easy to change. It's why propaganda is so insidious and effective.
> 
> There are STILL people who think Michael Jackson is a p*d*p****. Despite all the evidence pointing towards his innocence.
> 
> ...



'A comeback as great as the prequels' is a strong phrase... and if anything, the backlash against the sequels casts even more doubt because hating on the sequels is now trendy. By the way, a 'comeback' or any kind of resurgence does not mean everyone was always closet fans. Most of the time it happens because 

Fanboys was a loveletter to the OT, not the prequels. The movie literally ends with the characters having an awkward pause after asking "What if it sucks?" in the theater.The Joke would not make sense if the movie was beloved. 

Let me ask you this, do you have any evidence outside of your own opinion/perspective that RLM changed people's perspectives on the prequels? Because as I said, Lucas was saying that TPM disappointed fans even back in 1999. "Clerks" dedicated an entire episode of a character suing George Lucas for a refund over it (if I'm remembering that correctly). That joke wouldn't make sense unless at the absolute least, TPM was divisive.


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> 'A comeback as great as the prequels' is a strong phrase... and if anything, the backlash against the sequels casts even more doubt because hating on the sequels is now trendy. By the way, a 'comeback' or any kind of resurgence does not mean everyone was always closet fans.



The backlash against the sequels was immediate, and became more pronounced with TLJ. Then blew up with possibly one of the worst endings in Star Wars history with TROS. And that's including everything in the expanded universe. I would rather watch the Christmas special again than subject myself to that hot garbage. It was that god awful.



> Fanboys was a loveletter to the OT, not the prequels. The movie literally ends with the characters having an awkward pause after asking "What if it sucks?" in the theater.



And it's never clear if they actually _think _it sucks or not. Since it ends before they can actually watch the whole thing. It's just concern over whether it might be because of how much they were fans of it.



> Let me ask you this, do you have any evidence outside of your own opinion/perspective that RLM changed people's perspectives on the prequels? Because as I said, Lucas was saying that TPM disappointed fans even back in 1999. "Clerks" dedicated an entire episode of a character suing George Lucas for a refund over it (if I'm remembering that correctly). That joke wouldn't make sense unless at the absolute least, TPM was divisive.





No, they changed the perspective on it big time. The original reviews were almost _universally _positive. People only started bashing on it after it became trendy to hate it. Quite literally the people we see like in the Clerks animated short were the vocal minority. This is with emphasis on the minority part. Besides that example? Fanboys doesn't go out of its way to say it is bad. Just concern over whether it _might _be bad, and that it would all be for nothing.

Then Red Letter Media made it blow up.


----------



## MartialHorror (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> The backlash against the sequels was immediate, and became more pronounced with TLJ. Then blew up with possibly one of the worst endings in Star Wars history with TROS. And that's including everything in the expanded universe. I would rather watch the Christmas special again than subject myself to that hot garbage. It was that god awful.



So was TPM's backlash, apparently, if George Lucas was already talking about it in 1999.



> And it's never clear if they actually _think _it sucks or not. Since it ends before they can actually watch the whole thing. It's just concern over whether it might be because of how much they were fans of it.



That wasn't the joke though. Imagine if the plot surrounded them trying to see Empire Strikes Back instead and it ends with them asking "What if it sucks?" awkward pause. That wouldn't be a joke.





> No, they changed the perspective on it big time. The original reviews were almost _universally _positive. People only started bashing on it after it became trendy to hate it. Quite literally the people we see like in the Clerks animated short were the vocal minority. This is with emphasis on the minority part. Besides that example? Fanboys doesn't go out of its way to say it is bad. Just concern over whether it _might _be bad, and that it would all be for nothing.
> 
> Then Red Letter Media made it blow up.



... So you're using the mixed reception it had by the critics upon release, with at least one saying "Keep expectations low"? Why are the critics valid then, but not when they praise TLJ -- which had a much stronger critical reception? Is it only because you like one and not the other?

You keep saying this is a minority, but once again, these jokes and references would not make sense if there wasn't a backlash.


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> So was TPM's backlash, apparently, if George Lucas was already talking about it in 1999.



No, he was just saying how due to high expectations it was impossible to meet them all them. Which is typical with things that have a bunch of hype. Not that people were foaming at the mouth, and rabid because of it.



> That wasn't the joke though. Imagine if the plot surrounded them trying to see Empire Strikes Back instead and it ends with them asking "What if it sucks?" awkward pause. That wouldn't be a joke.



It wasn't a joke to begin with. It was genuine curiosity, and concern. There was no sudden "no, it will be fine!" Then scene break to them looking dejected, or crying in the fetal position. That doesn't happen because it wasn't a joke.



> ... So you're using the mixed reception it had by the critics upon release, with at least one saying "Keep expectations low"?



That's literally not what they say. What they actually say is that despite all the hype and expectation? It was still great. It at least manged to meet some of the hype but not all of it.

*“But stripped of hype and breathless expectations, Mr. Lucas’s first installment offers a happy surprise: it’s up to snuff. It sustains the gee-whiz spirit of the series and offers a swashbuckling extragalactic getaway, creating illusions that are even more plausible than the kitchen-raiding raptors of Jurassic Park.* While the human stars here are reduced to playing action figures, they are upstaged by amazing backdrops and hordes of crazily lifelike space beings as the Lewis Carroll in Mr. Lucas is given free rein. The _Star Wars_ franchise was funnier and scrappier when it was new. But it simply wasn’t capable of this.”

Then the other one.

“Of the film, I can say many things. But the long and short of it is that I liked it — quite a bit.* I’d rank it right after in a list of fave Star Wars flicks. It starts great, ends great, and has great stuff sprinkled in between.*

I think the key is to go in with low expectations. I did, and I really dug it. Dug it more with distance. I’d see it again.”



> Why are the critics valid then, but not when they praise TLJ -- which had a much stronger critical reception? Is it only because you like one and not the other?



That's because I didn't trust any of those critics especially in that political climate. Where they were prone to be boot lickers for whatever political agenda at the time. It's because one is objectively bad, and the other is not. Between the numerous plot holes. The horrid characterization or lack thereof. The butchering of nearly everything in the name of subverting expectations.

I only trust a critic when what they say is objectively true. According to what I have seen of the film.

If they lie I discard their subjective opinion.



> You keep saying this is a minority, but once again, these jokes and references would not make sense if there wasn't a backlash.



In Faboys that wasn't even the joke or a joke to begin with. There is no humor in it. No scene breaks. No attempt at irony. It's just a genuine question.


----------



## MartialHorror (May 3, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> It wasn't a joke to begin with. It was genuine curiosity, and concern. There was no sudden "no, it will be fine!" Then scene break to them looking dejected, or crying in the fetal position. That doesn't happen because it wasn't a joke.
> 
> That's literally not what they say. What they actually say is that despite all the hype and expectation? It was still great. It at least manged to meet some of the hype but not all of it.



... What? How do you see this and not see a joke?


*



			“But stripped of hype and breathless expectations, Mr. Lucas’s first installment offers a happy surprise: it’s up to snuff. It sustains the gee-whiz spirit of the series and offers a swashbuckling extragalactic getaway, creating illusions that are even more plausible than the kitchen-raiding raptors of Jurassic Park.
		
Click to expand...

*


> While the human stars here are reduced to playing action figures, they are upstaged by amazing backdrops and hordes of crazily lifelike space beings as the Lewis Carroll in Mr. Lucas is given free rein. The _Star Wars_ franchise was funnier and scrappier when it was new. But it simply wasn’t capable of this.”
> 
> Then the other one.
> 
> ...



If I have to go into a movie with 'low expectations' to appreciate it as a great film, then it was not great. For what it's worth, I only passingly through that in there because it was literally the first sentence I saw when I clicked on the link. Kevin Smith isn't an official critic, so I'm not going to hold him to the verbiage... but once again, even he -- a fan -- took notice of the backlash all the way back in the year 2000. Otherwise, "the joke would not make sense".




> That's because I didn't trust any of those critics especially in that political climate. Where they were prone to be boot lickers for whatever political agenda at the time. It's because one is objectively bad, and the other is not. Between the numerous plot holes. The horrid characterization or lack thereof. The butchering of nearly everything in the name of subverting expectations.



OK at least that's an answer... although I'd argue that film critics in the 1970's and 1980's were even more agenda driven, but that's a whole other argument... But even by your standards, TPM received mixed reviews, with most of the positives focusing entirely on the visual effects that most modern viewers don't think have agd well.



> I only trust a critic when what they say is objectively true. According to what I have seen of the film.
> 
> If they lie I discard their subjective opinion.
> 
> ...



When it comes down to it, we just aren't going to see eye to eye. They literally paused, as if the question had never hit them, which would make sense to a modern audience who would know TPM "sucked". If you don't see that, then maybe your opinion is a little more subjective than you'd like to think..


*Spoiler*: __ 




althoughIamoftheopinionthatallartissubjectivebutthatisneitherhereorthere


----------



## Atem (May 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> ... What? How do you see this and not see a joke?



I am not laughing for starters. It's literally just a question without a punchline. No scene break. No cut to them breaking down over the film. It's left ambiguous whether they liked it or not.



> If I have to go into a movie with 'low expectations' to appreciate it as a great film, then it was not great.



He's talking about the fact that having ridiculously high expectations can lead to a person being disappointed by something. That's normal for everything. I've seen people who hated The Godfather II because their expectations were too high.



> For what it's worth, I only passingly through that in there because it was literally the first sentence I saw when I clicked on the link. Kevin Smith isn't an official critic, so I'm not going to hold him to the verbiage... but once again, even he -- a fan -- took notice of the backlash all the way back in the year 2000. Otherwise, "the joke would not make sense".



As I said before there was no joke. It was just a question, and if it was a joke it wasn't a very good one. I would improve it by actually showing their reaction to it. After a scene break as they walk out of the theater. Though in my case it would be them walking out before jumping into the air with a skip to their step. Now that would be really _subverting_ expectations.

Then cue the fist bump towards the heavens.





> OK at least that's an answer... although I'd argue that film critics in the 1970's and 1980's were even more agenda driven, but that's a whole other argument... But even by your standards, TPM received mixed reviews, with most of the positives focusing entirely on the visual effects that most modern viewers don't think have agd well.



You missed the part where I said I only agree with them if what they say actually adheres to what we see in the film. I agree with them when they're right. In the case the sequels critics were largely wrong about them, and makes me question what they were actually seeing when they watched those films. Behind those heart-shaped glasses of theirs.



> When it comes down to it, we just aren't going to see eye to eye. They literally paused, as if the question had never hit them, which would make sense to a modern audience who would know TPM "sucked". If you don't see that, then maybe your opinion is a little more subjective than you'd like to think.



They paused because they never thought to bring up the question before, or think about the possibility. Which drew a sense of concern from them. They were extremely hyped for the film. Their expectations were at their maximum. They didn't even dwell on the idea until then. Which was there to leave us with a sense of uncertainty, and mystery.

Did they enjoy it or not?

Obviously, a potential sequel hook.


No, all art is not subjective. When it comes to story structure? There is a right way, and a wrong way to do things. A painting is subjective in terms of quality. Continuity, proper characterization, and general cohesion are things that can be objectively determined. Whether something makes sense to happen. According to what we know, and have seen from these characters.


----------



## MartialHorror (May 4, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> I am not laughing for starters. It's literally just a question without a punchline. No scene break. No cut to them breaking down over the film. It's left ambiguous whether they liked it or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's one thing for a few people to hate on "Godfather II" because of expectations. Everything has at least a few detractors. it's another if the hate practically becomes part of pop culture itself.



> You missed the part where I said I only agree with them if what they say actually adheres to what we see in the film. I agree with them when they're right. In the case the sequels critics were largely wrong about them, and makes me question what they were actually seeing when they watched those films. Behind those heart-shaped glasses of theirs.



Fair enough, but alternatively it's useless in a debate because I can say the same thing... So how could we even possibly progress from there?




> No, all art is not subjective. When it comes to story structure? There is a right way, and a wrong way to do things. A painting is subjective in terms of quality. Continuity, proper characterization, and general cohesion are things that can be objectively determined. Whether something makes sense to happen. According to what we know, and have seen from these characters.



The problem is everyone will have a different interpretation of characterization, what is cohesive to some won't be cohesive to others and whether something makes sense or not will also vary from person to person.

As for fanboys -- These articles are before RLM. The funny thing is that the director of "Fanboys" considers himself a fan of TPM, but even he seems to acknowledge the backlash at multiple times.





The last article even has the director admits he's 'one of a few' fans of TPM, with the rest of the cast giving mixed responses. Although for the sake of transparency, I can't verify the date. The one showing on the article says 2012, but it must be a re-post because another article with the same date refers to "Fanboys" as an upcoming movie. He also admits that the final line was a jab.


----------



## MartialHorror (May 4, 2020)

lol, random note. I was planning a quick reply, but I grew way too invested in the behind-the-scenes story behind "Fanboys". How the f@ck did Weinstein think the movie would work without the cancer storyline?


----------



## Atem (May 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> It's one thing for a few people to hate on "Godfather II" because of expectations. Everything has at least a few detractors. it's another if the hate practically becomes part of pop culture itself.



Again, this was because of Red Letter Media. Before then there were only a handful of people who had their reservations about it. They made it viral when before it was quarantined. They made it into a trend. They popularized it.



> Fair enough, but alternatively it's useless in a debate because I can say the same thing... So how could we even possibly progress from there?



Not really. The prequels didn't break canon like whatever detractors claim it does. The meme regarding midichlorians was nonsense, and they were never established as the source of the force. They were just receptors for it. Just take for example one of Clerks complaints. That when Obiwan Kenobi "met" Anakin Skywalker he was a great pilot. They then try to say Anakin Skywalker wasn't that in TPM. Which is absolutely wrong. He is a ludicrously talented pilot. Despite being a child.

This also ignores the fact that Obiwan was telling Luke half-truths in the OT, and was concealing the whole truth from him.

Their complaints were based on straw men, and them being angry that the truth wasn't _exactly_ how they imagined it.

It was nerdy nitpicking.



> The problem is everyone will have a different interpretation of characterization, what is cohesive to some won't be cohesive to others and whether something makes sense or not will also vary from person to person.



The turned Luke Skywalker into a cynical and bitter person. Who was willing to consider murdering his innocent nephew in his sleep. Based on a hunch. When before he was willing to try and redeem his father. Who actually did fall to the dark side, and commit numerous atrocities. That statistically make him more of a mass murderer than Adolf Hitler.



> As for fanboys -- These articles are before RLM. The funny thing is that the director of "Fanboys" considers himself a fan of TPM, but even he seems to acknowledge the backlash at multiple times.



Those very articles admit that it's because of the result their hype being too massive, and their expectations being too great. Did you actually read them? It's because they already had an idea of what they were going to be like, and threw an angry tantrum when the prequels weren't the precise shade of red that they liked.

It was a combination of entitlement, and ridiculous hype. Not that they were actually bad. More importantly, that it was just a vocal minority then.



> The last article even has the director admits he's 'one of a few' fans of TPM, with the rest of the cast giving mixed responses. Although for the sake of transparency, I can't verify the date. The one showing on the article says 2012, but it must be a re-post because another article with the same date refers to "Fanboys" as an upcoming movie. He also admits that the final line was a jab.



No, he doesn't. That's not even what he says in that article. The only thing they were making a joke about was Jar Jar Binks. Not whether the film was actually bad. He even states as such in that very article. The jab they made with the last line was exactly what I said it was. It was the preface of uncertainty. The unknown of whether it was going to be good or bad, and that wasn't what the movie was actually even about. It wasn't a set-up for a punchline. There's nothing suggesting this article came out any other time than in 2012 either. There is no "upcoming" anything in this one.

_One of the things a lot of people are curious about is how the film ends, since there is such a big debate about how good Episode I is.

Newman: That was a big part of our discussions. [Producer] Matt [Perniciaro] and I had this philosophy where it wasn't about the movie, which is kind of a message that we worked into the film. It's the journey, it's the friendship, and it's really about these guys as opposed to it hinging upon whether or not you liked Episode I.

We take a few jabs at Episode I, like we threw a Jar-Jar joke in there, and there's obviously that last line.* But for me it was trying to set the movie in a special time in '98 when it was all about the anticipation. No one knew if it was going to be good or bad, but what they were excited about was the buzz that something was coming.* I didn't want to get into the Episode I debate, [but] the movie's not about Episode I. The movie's about friends going on a journey and doing something for another friend. Star Wars is the vernacular, it's the way they talk, but it's not necessarily what it's about._


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## Mider T (May 4, 2020)

!!

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (May 4, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> Again, this was because of Red Letter Media. Before then there were only a handful of people who had their reservations about it. They made it viral when before it was quarantined. They made it into a trend. They popularized it.



Then at best, even by your logic, people were indifferent towards the prequels and only grew to hate them after RLM. Because once again, imagine if RLM did something similar with the OT. No one would've bought into it.

But even then, I'm just indulging you because I was there... I remember the hate well before RLM was a thing.



> No, he doesn't. That's not even what he says in that article. The only thing they were making a joke about was Jar Jar Binks. Not whether the film was actually bad. He even states as such in that very article. The jab they made with the last line was exactly what I said it was. It was the preface of uncertainty. The unknown of whether it was going to be good or bad, and that wasn't what the movie was actually even about. It wasn't a set-up for a punchline. There's nothing suggesting this article came out any other time than in 2012 either. There is no "upcoming" anything in this one.
> 
> _One of the things a lot of people are curious about is how the film ends, since there is such a big debate about how good Episode I is.
> 
> ...



Er, you forgot to bold the part where he says 'and there's obviously that last line' in regard to the few jabs they took at Episode 1. He also acknowledges that there was an Episode 1 debate... and the movie took place in 1998, when everyone -- including me -- was indeed was super pumped. You ask if I read the articles, but then ignore all of the references to the backlash.

Whoever wrote the first article in 2009 even comments: "Newman felt that energy again when “Phantom Menace” was coming out and that inspired “Fanboys”. *Of course, a lot of the anticipation leading up to “Phantom Menace” disappeared when fans saw the movie.* But Newman is still a fan"

Newmon also says -- "*I probably like them more than most people* it wasn’t really the medium in which it was presented"

In the 2nd, the interviewer points out that Newmon said that if you don't like all the films, you're not a true fan  and he responded -- "Oh, totally. *That's an extremely unpopular opinion. And people are justified to it. But there's a slight selfishness to fans who expected the franchise and the writing to mature with them and their tastes.*"

It would not be so unpopular if the movies were all popular.

"*People were complaining about the prequels saying*, "I want a movie without taxes and trade routes and the Senate." -- If it's a minority, then it's not really worth talking about... and he suggests that the animated "Clone Wars" movie might've been a direct result of the backlash against the prequels.

The third article has "I loved Episode 1.* I know I'm probably one of a few people*, but I think I got acclimated to it because of all of the spoilers. So I wasn't shocked; I mean, a lot of people went in cold, and they were like, 'What the hell is this?'"

These things he's saying... once again... would make sense unless there was a significant backlash.


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## Gunners (May 4, 2020)

*snip*



Anomander Rake said:


> And now we got those CCP friendly sequels. You know, for all the "racism" that Gunner likes to complain about he sure likes to ignore how horribly Finn's character was wasted throughout the sequels. And how quick Disney is to bend over to their Chinese overlords. Never forget that Disney censored the fact T'challa was a black man in the Black Panther posters, and brought an end to Rose's romance to Finn because black man bad. To say nothing of the throw in gays they delete for the Chinese approved release.



There is some other shit about Toys R Us going bankrupt, denial over financial figures and some humorous conspiracy theories.

I would be shocked that you couldn't understand why someone who complains about racism wouldn't comment on Finn's character but the scope of your life is apparent to me. I feel sorry for you.

Go out and see the world. Realise that it is a bigger place than someone liking the new sequels.


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## Atem (May 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Then at best, even by your logic, people were indifferent towards the prequels and only grew to hate them after RLM.



How did you reach that conclusion from what I said there?  I didn't say they were indifferent to it. I said a small handful of them hated them, and the vast majority actually enjoyed them.



> Because once again, imagine if RLM did something similar with the OT. No one would've bought into it.



Yeah, they would have. The problem is that times have changed, and things can easily become viral now because of the internet.



> But even then, I'm just indulging you because I was there... I remember the hate well before RLM was a thing.



I remember everyone in my school loving the heck out of it when it was released, and not a single damn person I knew complaining about it. Literally the only gripe was Jar Jar Binks. They loved absolutely everything else.



> Er, you forgot to bold the part where he says 'and there's obviously that last line' in regard to the few jabs they took at Episode 1.



Jab =/= Joke. He even explains as such, and what it was actually about. What you're doing is conflating the joke regarding Jar Jar Binks, and that jab.



> He also acknowledges that there was an Episode 1 debate... *and the movie took place in 1998*, when everyone -- including me -- was indeed was super pumped.



Wrong again. It was released May 19th, 1999. You don't even remember when it actually came out let alone the actual people had to it before that vocal minority decided to nitpick everything.



> You ask if I read the articles, but then ignore all of the references to the backlash.



No, I didn't because it wasn't there. It's talking about how the hype and anticipation ended after it finally released. That does not mean there was massive backlash.



> Whoever wrote the first article in 2009 even comments: "Newman felt that energy again when “Phantom Menace” was coming out and that inspired “Fanboys”. *Of course, a lot of the anticipation leading up to “Phantom Menace” disappeared when fans saw the movie.* But Newman is still a fan"



Again, as I already noted in the above: No, I didn't because it wasn't there. It's talking about how the hype and anticipation ended after it finally released. That does not mean there was a massive backlash. He was just saying that after the hype and anticipation died down he was still a _humongous_ fan of the film. Instead of a typical fan of TPM like 99% of the population was.



> Newmon also says -- "*I probably like them more than most people* it wasn’t really the medium in which it was presented"



He even notes that he just likes them more than most people, and not that those other people didn't like it. He was talking about all the Star Wars films in general.



> In the 2nd, the interviewer points out that Newmon said that if you don't like all the films, you're not a true fan  and he responded -- "Oh, totally. *That's an extremely unpopular opinion. And people are justified to it. But there's a slight selfishness to fans who expected the franchise and the writing to mature with them and their tastes.*"



That even has him confirm that TPM wasn't any worse than the OT, and that people were disappointed because it wasn't better than the OT. Not that TPM was bad. Just that the expectations of the people were far too high, and they were expecting it to be better. Instead of being just as good. Which angered a vocal minority to the point they decided to call the prequel films that can stand besides the OT in terms quality garbage.

They were selfish, and entitled.

It would not be so unpopular if the movies were all popular.



> "*People were complaining about the prequels saying*, "I want a movie without taxes and trade routes and the Senate."



Lmao, literally massively important parts of world building and establishing that this is an actual universe with people. Governments. Societies. Politics, and economics.

That's the vocal minority, and their retarded complaints I am talking about.



> -- If it's a minority, then it's not really worth talking about... and he suggests that the animated "Clone Wars" movie might've been a direct result of the backlash against the prequels.



No, he doesn't. That's just another non-sequitur you reached based on a completely different topic at hand.



> The third article has "I loved Episode 1.* I know I'm probably one of a few people*, but I think I got acclimated to it because of all of the spoilers. So I wasn't shocked; I mean, a lot of people went in cold, and they were like, 'What the hell is this?'"



After Red Letter Media released their review. Several months after the fact, and when it went viral. You keep ignoring when it was posted, and keep trying to say that it somehow magically time-traveled to the future. And everything there was actually because Red Letter Media spread like a plague across the internet.



> These things he's saying... once again... would make sense unless there was a significant backlash.



Yeah, after Red Letter Media released their "review" of TPM eight months prior to that article and that interview.


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## Atem (May 4, 2020)

Gunners said:


> There is some other shit about Toys R Us going bankrupt, denial over financial figures and some humorous conspiracy theories.



You mean like how people are conflating box office openings and wide-spread affluence with overt quality, and that it somehow makes it better? Since obviously lots of money equals great story telling, and not good advertisement.

Disney is good at bullshitting. They are not good at respecting an IP.



> I would be shocked that you couldn't understand why someone who complains about racism wouldn't comment on Finn's character but the scope of your life is apparent to me. I feel sorry for you.



Literally turned him into Rey's house slave, cancelled any romance because of the CCP, made him incompetent and a freaking janitor, and a coward who initially wanted to run away and who had his moment of redemption in TLJ stolen from him.

Due to said nonsensical romance that was deleted anyway.

He got shafted so hard I thought I was witnessing a gang rape.

Which is a shame because initially him, and Poe were the only characters I liked.



> Go out and see the world. Realise that it is a bigger place than someone liking the new sequels.



Those people are part of the problem, and why Star Wars has been slowly and surely violated beyond any recognition.


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## Atem (May 4, 2020)




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## Atem (May 4, 2020)

HE'S BACK BABY


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## MartialHorror (May 4, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> How did you reach that conclusion from what I said there?  I didn't say they were indifferent to it. I said a small handful of them hated them, and the vast majority actually enjoyed them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*sigh*

-- I said the movie -- as in "Fanboys" -- took place in 1998. Hence, why everyone was pumped. 

-- No, I'm referring to the final line. How do you keep missing "and there's obviously that last line" when discussing the jabs he took at TPM.

-- "No, he doesn't. That's just another non-sequitur you reached based on a completely different topic at hand." No, No, this is literally what he was talking about. 

-- "After Red Letter Media released their review. Several months after the fact, and when it went viral. You keep ignoring when it was posted, and keep trying to say that it somehow magically time-traveled to the future. And everything there was actually because Red Letter Media spread like a plague across the internet."

Okay, where are you actually seeing the interview date? Because I can only see the re-post date. But the funny thing is this director doesn't seem to agree with you. He doesn't reference RLM. He only takes about high expectations and people not liking it. 

I'm really sorry, dude, I'm really trying to understand your POV here. But when you take the "and then that hype died when people actually watched that movie" and interpret it as "... it ended because the movie came out" which was so obviously not what he was referring too... I can't figure out if I'm being trolled or not.


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## Atem (May 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> -- I said the movie -- as in "Fanboys" -- took place in 1998. Hence, why everyone was pumped.



You didn't specify Fanboys. You said Episode 1. Which was the crux of my argument. I was saying that the question was asked because of the overwhelming hype and anticipation that colored people's expectations. 



> -- No, I'm referring to the final line. How do you keep missing "and there's obviously that last line" when discussing the jabs he took at TPM.



That's literally what I have been talking about since several posts back. I can even screen-cap it for you if you like. Heck, I will do it right now even.





> No, No, this is literally what he was talking about.



It really wasn't. The only time he so much as mentions Clone Wars is in the second article. Not the third one you posted. And that wasn't what he meant. The backlash was from the animated film Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Which didn't stack up to the rest of the TV series that came later. Not Attack of the Clones. The hate wasn't directed at the prequel films.



> Okay, where are you actually seeing the interview date? Because I can only see the re-post date. But the funny thing is this director doesn't seem to agree with you. He doesn't reference RLM. He only takes about high expectations and people not liking it.



December 14, 2012. There is nothing there saying that it was the repost date. The reason why people didn't like it was because that vocal minority got popularized thanks to Red Letter Media. They jumped on the bandwagon, and it became the next big fad. Don't forget how people despised Citizen Kane and Shakespeare in their time. Now they are timeless classics.



> I'm really sorry, dude, I'm really trying to understand your POV here. But when you take the "and then that hype died when people actually watched that movie" and interpret it as "... it ended because the movie came out" which was so obviously not what he was referring too... I can't figure out if I'm being trolled or not.



Apparently you are also a mind reader, and can discern different intents from what somebody is saying. When they do not so much as mention the conclusions you reach. Hype and anticipation obviously die when you actually watch something or play it. That doesn't mean you end up hating it. It just means you stop expecting whatever it is you imagined it would be.

Reactions: Like 2


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2020)

Fanboy's left it pretty open ended with that joke.
They didn't really make a judgment whether the movie was bad or not.
You could even see it as a jab on how the fanatical fans put so much value on that movie.

The joke works because it can be interpreted as a jab, question or a commentary on their obsession.
They made it to suit different watchers intentionally, imo.


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## MartialHorror (May 4, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> You didn't specify Fanboys. You said Episode 1. Which was the crux of my argument. I was saying that the question was asked because of the overwhelming hype and anticipation that colored people's expectations.



My mistake then, I could've said that better.





> That's literally what I have been talking about since several posts back. I can even screen-cap it for you if you like. Heck, I will do it right now even.



I am referring to his quote though. The director said: "We take a few jabs at _Episode I_, like we threw a Jar-Jar joke in there, and there's *obviously that last line.*" He is saying the last line was intended as a jab.




> It really wasn't. The only time he so much as mentions Clone Wars is in the second article. Not the third one you posted. And that wasn't what he meant. The backlash was from the animated film Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Which didn't stack up to the rest of the TV series that came later. Not Attack of the Clones. The hate wasn't directed at the prequel films.



"People reviewing _Clone Wars_, it seemed like a contest to see who could be the most obnoxious and negative. It's unfortunate. I thought that movie was fun! If I were 10-years-old and I saw it, I'd be begging for bed sheets and Colorforms. People were complaining about the prequels saying, "I want a movie without taxes and trade routes and the Senate." So they make one that's just a simple adventure, and people are like, "This is for kids!" It's a catch-22. You can't appeal to everybody"

I didn't say it as the 3rd article.



> December 14, 2012. There is nothing there saying that it was the repost date. The reason why people didn't like it was because that vocal minority got popularized thanks to Red Letter Media. They jumped on the bandwagon, and it became the next big fad. Don't forget how people despised Citizen Kane and Shakespeare in their time. Now they are timeless classics.



OK that makes it easy. Click on the "fanboys" tag in that article and there are like 7 with the exact same date, same author. At least one refers to it as an upcoming movie and another a 'future DVD release'... Websites often get overhauled and articles, etc. have to be re-uploaded. I told you from the beginning that I couldn't verify the date. Multiple pages refer to some Public screening that took place on the Feb 3rd before its official release. I believe everything is part of the same interview based on the author saying multiple pages are part of an 'excerpt' of an interview', but I can't verify it.



> Apparently you are also a mind reader, and can discern different intents from what somebody is saying. When they do not so much as mention the conclusions you reach. Hype and anticipation obviously die when you actually watch something or play it. That doesn't mean you end up hating it. It just means you stop expecting whatever it is you imagined it would be.



Is it any different than what you're trying to do, making a sweeping generalization of the entire fanbase like that? For me, it's simple. If you like "The Phantom Menace", then fine, I'm sure you can wow me with some argument that it's an underappreciated gem. If audiences re-evaluate it over time and it becomes regarded as a kind of classic, OK then. It happens all the time, regardless of how I personally feel about the movie. But the movies were at best divisive at the time. That's just history. I love "The Thing" and love that it's revered as a horror classic, but I'm not going to pretend that the movie was beloved upon release. 

Just out of curiosity and if you don't want to respond to this question, then I won't hold you to it. Were you personally pressured into silence in the wake of RLM's review of "The Phantom Menace"? Was there a point where you were ashamed to call yourself a prequel fan? Because this would make so much more sense if you were making assumptions towards everyone else based on what happened to you. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to claim that this is the case, I'm just wondering if it is.
'


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## Atem (May 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> My mistake then, I could've said that better.



Okay.



> I am referring to his quote though. The director said: "We take a few jabs at _Episode I_, like we threw a Jar-Jar joke in there, and there's *obviously that last line.*" He is saying the last line was intended as a jab.



I know, and I already rebuked this. Jar Jar Binks was the joke in the movie. The question was just a jab with no punchline, and which was left open ended. Rather than giving us any definitive answer, or whiplash. It was not a lot of things but it was critical of over-hype, and fans taking things too seriously more than anything else.



> I didn't say it as the 3rd article.



I already rebuked this is the very part of my post you are replying to.

"It really wasn't. The only time he so much as mentions Clone Wars is in the second article. Not the third one you posted. And that wasn't what he meant. The backlash was from the animated film Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Which didn't stack up to the rest of the TV series that came later. Not Attack of the Clones. The hate wasn't directed at the prequel films."

They were mad that the animated film didn't live up to their expectations. Just like they whined about the trade routes, and the senate.

It's that vocal minority again who can never be pleased.



> OK that makes it easy. Click on the "fanboys" tag in that article and there are like 7 with the exact same date, same author. At least one refers to it as an upcoming movie and another a 'future DVD release'... Websites often get overhauled and articles, etc. have to be re-uploaded. I told you from the beginning that I couldn't verify the date. Multiple pages refer to some Public screening that took place on the Feb 3rd before its official release. I believe everything is part of the same interview based on the author saying multiple pages are part of an 'excerpt' of an interview', but I can't verify it.



Then it's useless to you if it gives you neither the exact date, and if everything is a part of the same interview it could mean he published several of those articles in quick succession. Which means some of them could have been posted on the same day but at different times. Which is ignoring the fact I never said Red Letter Media were the first. I said they popularized it, and were patient zero of the bandwagon of hate that would follow. The only thing people clearly disliked from the beginning was Jar Jar Binks. The rest from the light-saber duels, soundtrack, characters, and story they enjoyed.



> Is it any different than what you're trying to do, making a sweeping generalization of the entire fanbase like that? For me, it's simple. If you like "The Phantom Menace", then fine, I'm sure you can wow me with some argument that it's an underappreciated gem. If audiences re-evaluate it over time and it becomes regarded as a kind of classic, OK then. It happens all the time, regardless of how I personally feel about the movie. But the movies were at best divisive at the time. That's just history. I love "The Thing" and love that it's revered as a horror classic, but I'm not going to pretend that the movie was beloved upon release.



The Phantom Menace was beloved on release. Until the vocal minority started rearing their ugly head, and gained more influence. Red Letter Media refined every single thing about their bullshit. Then proceeded to make a seven part review due to how ass blasted they were. Their review was as outrageously petty as Cinema Sins at their worst. It's the same person who had a bone to pick with the expanded universe, and who had some uncomfortably creepy moments that made him come off as a serial killer. He practically embodied the high stung fan who can never be pleased. He was literally like Chris-chan as a grown man.



> Just out of curiosity and if you don't want to respond to this question, then I won't hold you to it. Were you personally pressured into silence in the wake of RLM's review of "The Phantom Menace"? Was there a point where you were ashamed to call yourself a prequel fan? Because this would make so much more sense if you were making assumptions towards everyone else based on what happened to you. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to claim that this is the case, I'm just wondering if it is.
> '



That was practically everyone. I loved it just like they did. However, if I defended it nut jobs would come out of the wood work and act like a pack of rabid dogs. The vitriol became so ridiculous that it destroyed the lives of several of the actors. One of them contemplating suicide, and another one becoming a convicted criminal. That sort of backlash was the kinda thing you would expect from a cult. Not a bunch of fanboys, and that's because they weren't fanboys. They were a bunch of parasites jumping onto the latest trend.


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## MartialHorror (May 4, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, everything else is just us going in circles, so I'll focus on your last paragraph. Is it simply possible that your own negative experiences with the hate have had an impact on your perspective? 

Also, do you have any sympathy for sequel fans? Because a lot of the same hate you're lamenting right now is now being heaped upon them. Because regardless of whether the sequels or the prequels are bad, no one should be bullied for their opinions on a fictional product. 

For the record, I'm not really a follower of Red Letter Media and I don't think I've ever seen an episode of Cinema Sins, so you can talk about how awful they are all you want as I don't really have a reference point, but if what you say is true... then regardless of what you think of them as critics, they must among the best storytellers ever to single handedly convince the fandom to turn on Star Wars -- what had been the biggest franchise of all time.


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## Atem (May 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> OK, everything else is just us going in circles, so I'll focus on your last paragraph. Is it simply possible that your own negative experiences with the hate have had an impact on your perspective?



Absolutely, and I don't care. The backlash was wholly undeserved, and made absolutely no sense what to speak of. There was no logic behind it. My feelings are tempered by the facts of the matter. Which is to say their complaints were ridiculous, and required them to ignore the plot of the story.



> Also, do you have any sympathy for sequel fans? Because a lot of the same hate you're lamenting right now is now being heaped upon them. Because regardless of whether the sequels or the prequels are bad, no one should be bullied for their opinions on a fictional product.



The hate is actually deserved in regards to the sequels. It threw out thousands of hours of work, and heaped it into Legends Canon. It went out of the way to violate both the OT, and the prequels. It then tried copying the Legends Canon it threw out, and derided. Completely shameless, and without a hint of self-awareness. It beat a dead horse for that money, money, _money_.



> For the record, I'm not really a follower of Red Letter Media and I don't think I've ever seen an episode of Cinema Sins, so you can talk about how awful they are all you want as I don't really have a reference point, but if what you say is true... then regardless of what you think of them as critics, they must among the best storytellers ever to single handedly convince the fandom to turn on Star Wars -- what had been the biggest franchise of all time.



They didn't convince the fandom to turn on it. They convinced the casual observer. The people who haven't so much as heard of the name Kyle Katarn or Mara Jade. Whose only reference point are the films. Which they may have watched once at most. They convinced the people who weren't really into it, and who were just going along with the ride. Who just regurgitate what others tell them instead of forming their own opinion. The mindless herd of yes men and yes women.


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## MartialHorror (May 4, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> Absolutely, and I don't care. The backlash was wholly undeserved, and made absolutely no sense what to speak of. There was no logic behind it. My feelings are tempered by the facts of the matter. Which is to say their complaints were ridiculous, and required them to ignore the plot of the story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even though I think we touched on this before, if Red Letter Media did a review on the original Star Wars and was just as hostile and negative, would that have caused people to turn on the original trilogy? I don't buy that because even casual viewers know the original trilogy pretty well. From Vader to Ewoks, they have a good understanding of it. That's a big part of why it's a classic. It's just so uniquely memorable. Can casual viewers name the characters of the prequels? Do they really remember the stories. If RLM had such an impact on their perspective, then they must never have been that impactful or important themselves... and at best, are more cult favorites than classics. It also kind of means you are conceding that 'Red Letter Media' had a bigger impact on the world than these prequels. 

Also, out of curiosity, has any other public perspective of a movie (or any form of media, I guess) been altered because of a youtube video? 

It is funny how we just have very different backgrounds on this. I think I was in Junior High when TPM came out and while I don't remember anyone saying it was bad, I do remember everyone complaining about Qui Gon dying or Darth Maul dying or how they didn't like Anakin or Jar Jar. I had a lukewarm reaction to it in theaters myself and didn't realize how poorly I thought of the film until it came out on video and I realized I dreaded having to watch it again when a friend rented it for a birthday party. 

A couple of years later (I was in High school at this point; this was before AotC came out), there was a bus trip and the teachers put it on the TV and everyone jeered. I ended up watching "Shaft" (the Samuel Jackson one) with a handful of friends on their portable DVD player instead. I might say we were simply too old for it by then, but I also remember a lot of these same kids engaging in a spirited 'Darth Vader Vs Darth Maul' debate shortly before "Attack of the Clones" was released. Obviously these aren't the reasons why I think the prequels were always divisive-to-disliked, but I do think it is in our nature to have a selected memory in such things. I didn't even watch RLM's review until around the time "The Force Awakens" was released.


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## Atem (May 5, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Even though I think we touched on this before, if Red Letter Media did a review on the original Star Wars and was just as hostile and negative, would that have caused people to turn on the original trilogy? I don't buy that because even casual viewers know the original trilogy pretty well. From Vader to Ewoks, they have a good understanding of it. That's a big part of why it's a classic. It's just so uniquely memorable. Can casual viewers name the characters of the prequels? Do they really remember the stories. If RLM had such an impact on their perspective, then they must never have been that impactful or important themselves... and at best, are more cult favorites than classics. It also kind of means you are conceding that 'Red Letter Media' had a bigger impact on the world than these prequels.



No, they didn't as we can see with the resurgence of popularity with the prequels and how even many longtime Star Wars fans name them as their favorite. John Boyega himself was a huge fan of Anakin Skywalker. Not just as Darth Vader. This is due in part with how horrendous the sequels were that it made people realize that the prequels weren't as bad as people like RLM would claim. People are easily mislead, and it requires a particular wake up call to snap them out of it. The actually badly written and directed sequels did the trick. It's realigned their perspective after having the wool pulled over their eyes for so long. There is nobody who doesn't remember Duel of Fates, Darth Maul, the light-saber duels, or the aliens. As abhorrent as Jar Jar Binks was considered even he was memorable due to his design, and behavior. This includes the general designs of the droids, and vehicles. A lot of people would recognize them at a glance. 



> Also, out of curiosity, has any other public perspective of a movie (or any form of media, I guess) been altered because of a youtube video?



Yes, video games in particular. Egoraptor trashing on Ocarina of Time caused an influx of people like him to appear. Who regurgitated his opinion. Dunkey, while I do enjoy his videos, has a large following and people tend to repeat his behavior. A lot of hate for Octopath Traveller was a result of him. Accidentally in his case. Inadvertently he drew a lot of negative attention to it, and even more so when people replied back. Which made it worse because some of them were idiots who didn't play it.

After the FF VII Remake review people knee jerked, and dog-piled him for it. Since he gave an even handed review of it that criticized it fairly instead of giving it a glowing review.

They were so afraid of a repeat what happened with Octopath Traveller that even an average rating scared them.

Human beings are polarizing creatures. Who tend to flock for someone for guidance. They can be easily taught what to think and feel, and have a herd mentality.



> It is funny how we just have very different backgrounds on this. I think I was in Junior High when TPM came out and while I don't remember anyone saying it was bad, I do remember everyone complaining about Qui Gon dying or Darth Maul dying or how they didn't like Anakin or Jar Jar. I had a lukewarm reaction to it in theaters myself and didn't realize how poorly I thought of the film until it came out on video and I realized I dreaded having to watch it again when a friend rented it for a birthday party.



I remember people gushing about how cool Darth Maul was, saying Jar Jar Binks was annoying, that Qui-Gon Jinn was badass, and that the light-saber duel at the end was fantastic. I don't even remember any hate for Anakin Skywalker until afterwards when the bandwagon got started. Which revolved about complaints about his background should have been more of a mystery rather than outright revealed. Revenge of the Sith was one of the most well written Star Wars stories, and even the bit with the younglings made sense. Considering what he did in Attack of the Clones.


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## MartialHorror (May 5, 2020)

Anomander Rake said:


> No, they didn't as we can see with the resurgence of popularity with the prequels and how even many longtime Star Wars fans name them as their favorite. John Boyega himself was a huge fan of Anakin Skywalker. Not just as Darth Vader. This is due in part with how horrendous the sequels were that it made people realize that the prequels weren't as bad as people like RLM would claim. People are easily mislead, and it requires a particular wake up call to snap them out of it. The actually badly written and directed sequels did the trick. It's realigned their perspective after having the wool pulled over their eyes for so long. There is nobody who doesn't remember Duel of Fates, Darth Maul, the light-saber duels, or the aliens. As abhorrent as Jar Jar Binks was considered even he was memorable due to his design, and behavior. This includes the general designs of the droids, and vehicles. A lot of people would recognize them at a glance



Once again, we're going to just have to disagree.




> Yes, video games in particular. Egoraptor trashing on Ocarina of Time caused an influx of people like him to appear. Who regurgitated his opinion. Dunkey, while I do enjoy his videos, has a large following and people tend to repeat his behavior. A lot of hate for Octopath Traveller was a result of him. Accidentally in his case. Inadvertently he drew a lot of negative attention to it, and even more so when people replied back. Which made it worse because some of them were idiots who didn't play it.
> 
> After the FF VII Remake review people knee jerked, and dog-piled him for it. Since he gave an even handed review of it that criticized it fairly instead of giving it a glowing review.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, I'm not much of a gamer so can't comment.





> I remember people gushing about how cool Darth Maul was, saying Jar Jar Binks was annoying, that Qui-Gon Jinn was badass, and that the light-saber duel at the end was fantastic. I don't even remember any hate for Anakin Skywalker until afterwards when the bandwagon got started. Which revolved about complaints about his background should have been more of a mystery rather than outright revealed. Revenge of the Sith was one of the most well written Star Wars stories, and even the bit with the younglings made sense. Considering what he did in Attack of the Clones.



Fuck even I thought Darth Maul was cool. I still do. I just wish he was more of a character than just a cool looking heavy, although I hear the cartoon series fleshed him out.

Ugh, all this talk makes me feel old. I actually remember seeing the prequel toyline before I saw the trailers and was saddened when my parents wouldn't let me buy a Darth Maul toy, lol.


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## MShadows (May 7, 2020)

Kylo Ren saved Ben Affleck's son's birthday


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## Pilaf (May 7, 2020)




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## Uchiha Madara (May 7, 2020)

The main problem with the sequel trilogy is that they let two different directors do whatever they wanted with it which resulted in them constantly retconning the shit out of each other. The sequel trilogy had no idea what it wanted to be.


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## Pilaf (May 8, 2020)




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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Uchiha Madara said:


> The main problem with the sequel trilogy is that they let two different directors do whatever they wanted with it which resulted in them constantly retconning the shit out of each other. The sequel trilogy had no idea what it wanted to be.


I think the premise is kind of flawed too.

Realistically what they should have done; is had the New Republic after finding out Palpatine was a Sith outlaw practicing the force and persecuting force sensitive. Luke should have currently been training Jedi in secret on Ach To; and Han should have been helping to smuggle force users. Han ends up trying to smuggle Rey due to her insane force power to Luke; and then they get chased down by Kylo Ren the leader of the Nee Republic Anti-Force Squad.

Kylo turns out to be Han and Leia’s so just like in the TFA, but siding with the idea of the force being outlawed considering what his family had done in the past (Vader). Have a battle between Anti-Force Squad / Ben and Han, Rey, Finn (Ex member of the Squad) with Ben killing Han, but Rey escaping and making it to Ach To.

TLJ; have Rey training on Ach To with Luke at the Jedi Academy he setup. Force connection between her and Ben; ultimately reveals Rey is related to Palpatine and Ben finding her location decides to kill her. Big fight on Ach To; with Luke and the other Jedi; being eventually killed, and Rey becoming the last Jedi at the very end but being forced to flee with more of the Younger Jedi trainees.

Next movie takes place Years later. Rey having trained the trainees to full on Jedi Knights; and they take the fight to Anti-Jedi Squad; and eventually find out that the person behind the Anti-force users movement is actually one of the former surviving Inquistors that took power after the fall of Palaptine and is trying to use this as an excuse to manipulate the republic into finishing Order 66 and eliminating all force users. In the end Ben sacrifices himself to kill the inquisitor; and the republic stops hunting the Jedi; and then Rey restarts the temple now out in the open again. Okay 

Basic outline.


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## Atem (May 9, 2020)




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## Claudio Swiss (May 9, 2020)

Like how everyone agrees with him

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (May 12, 2020)




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## Gunners (Jun 6, 2020)

Finally watched the film. What can I say? Wow! I wish I saw it sooner. Second only to an Empire Strikes back in the series.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 6, 2020)




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## Sherlōck (Jun 7, 2020)

Do I need to watch all the tv series or can I just watch the 11 movies .


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## MartialHorror (Jun 7, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Do I need to watch all the tv series or can I just watch the 11 movies .



I think "Solo" is the only movie that requires you to watch the Clone Wars... although admittedly, it's just one twist that functions more as a stinger than a real plot development.


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## Natalija (Jun 7, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> [LINKHL]588621[/LINKHL]


Literally this. It's easier to care about Mando after five minutes, than Rey in three movies.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gunners (Jun 7, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Do I need to watch all the tv series or can I just watch the 11 movies .



You can watch the movies, but should watch the Clone Wars.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 7, 2020)

I never thought that there would be _Star Wars_ films that made the prequels look good, but the sequels do a fair job of that, which is very sad, considering that both _The Clone Wars_ and _Rebels_ animated series were amazing, as is _The Mandalorian,_ from what I have heard, so why could Lucasfilm not have hired the writers of those series to write the sequels? This is similar to how the brilliant writers of the DC Animated Universe could have been, but were not, hired for the DC Cinematic Universe.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 7, 2020)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I never thought that there would be _Star Wars_ films that made the prequels look good, but the sequels do a fair job of that, which is very sad, considering that both _The Clone Wars_ and _Rebels_ animated series were amazing, as is _The Mandalorian,_ from what I have heard, so why could Lucasfilm not have hired the writers of those series to write the sequels? This is similar to how the brilliant writers of the DC Animated Universe could have been, but were not, hired for the DC Cinematic Universe.



Writing a TV show is not the same as writing a movie, as TV shows are usually written by a group of people... although if I'm wrong in this specific case, feel free to correct me. But when movies usually have a lot of writers, it shows in the worst possible way.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jun 8, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Writing a TV show is not the same as writing a movie, as TV shows are usually written by a group of people... although if I'm wrong in this specific case, feel free to correct me. But when movies usually have a lot of writers, it shows in the worst possible way.



There's no way you're incorrect

You're also very brave to reply to that fellow as it should be fairly obvious the differences between animated television and film making. A lot of things wouldn't translate well to the other.


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## Sherlōck (Jun 8, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I think "Solo" is the only movie that requires you to watch the Clone Wars... although admittedly, it's just one twist that functions more as a stinger than a real plot development.





Gunners said:


> You can watch the movies, but should watch the Clone Wars.



Clone wars movie or tv series? Or both?


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## Big Bob (Jun 8, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Clone wars movie or tv series? Or both?



Tv series.


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## Natalija (Jun 8, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Writing a TV show is not the same as writing a movie, as TV shows are usually written by a group of people... although if I'm wrong in this specific case, feel free to correct me. But when movies usually have a lot of writers, it shows in the worst possible way.


TLJ was written by one person, and it's still shit. So it doesn't really matter how many work on it if the idea sucks.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 8, 2020)

Natalija said:


> TLJ was written by one person, and it's still shit. So it doesn't really matter how many work on it if the idea sucks.



Key word being 'it doesn't really matter'. The writers of TCW series presumably specialize in TV writing, which is a different medium that has different rules. Obviously a movie written by one person can be bad and technically, movies written by a dozen people can still be good. It's just that they usually aren't for "too many cooks in the kitchen" reasons. 

Once again, I'm not bothering looking up their work though so it's possible that they also have experience in film, nor do I know how many people actually wrote TCW.


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## Big Bob (Jun 9, 2020)

Dave Filioni would be the best person to bring from the tv series to write new star wars movies. The guy just gets the series so well and his passion for it is just as high as George Lucas'.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jun 9, 2020)

I just started watching the clone wars and honestly damn what an awesome show. Only 2 seasons in...

The ep where r2d2 fights his evil counterpart r3d2 

The fight between the 2 weakest robots was so epic lmao

and if jar jar dies, he dies


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## Velocity (Jun 13, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Key word being 'it doesn't really matter'. The writers of TCW series presumably specialize in TV writing, which is a different medium that has different rules. Obviously a movie written by one person can be bad and technically, movies written by a dozen people can still be good. It's just that they usually aren't for "too many cooks in the kitchen" reasons.
> 
> Once again, I'm not bothering looking up their work though so it's possible that they also have experience in film, nor do I know how many people actually wrote TCW.



The thing is, as the show progressed, it moved away from the episodic format and into a more serialised approach. Instead of standalone episodes, you'd have four episodes per storyline. A lot of those were written no differently to movies if you ask me and a lot of people seem to think the very last four episodes, for example, are going to be edited together into a movie that they can sell on bluray by itself.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 13, 2020)

Clay said:


> The thing is, as the show progressed, it moved away from the episodic format and into a more serialised approach. Instead of standalone episodes, you'd have four episodes per storyline. A lot of those were written no differently to movies if you ask me and a lot of people seem to think the very last four episodes, for example, are going to be edited together into a movie that they can sell on bluray by itself.



If you say so. I never watched the show so I can't comment on it. 

Out of curiosity, did these writers also do that animated TCW movie that came out in theaters?


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## Velocity (Jun 13, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> If you say so. I never watched the show so I can't comment on it.
> 
> Out of curiosity, did these writers also do that animated TCW movie that came out in theaters?



Henry Gilroy wrote 21 episodes, Scott Murphy supervised the writing of 15 episodes and Steve Melching wrote 13 episodes. None of them wrote anything past the fourth season and they wrote less than half of the first four seasons anyway. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if those “recommended watch lists” skipped most of their episodes.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Jun 13, 2020)

I hear a lot of good things about TCW and Rebels but I can’t get past the campy animation that looks like something the kids watch during Pre-K.


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## Natalija (Jun 13, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> I hear a lot of good things about TCW and Rebels but I can’t get past the camp animation that looks like something the kids watch during Pre-K.


I've thought the same at first, but TCW are really worth it. You even get fond of the animation eventually.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Jun 13, 2020)

Natalija said:


> I've thought the same at first, but TCW are really worth it. You even get fond of the animation eventually.


I watched about two episodes of TCW and a good four to five of Rebels and I just couldn’t continue.


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## Natalija (Jun 13, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> I watched about two episodes of TCW and a good four to five of Rebels and I just couldn’t continue.


Hahaha takes a bit more effort, I'm afraid

Reactions: Like 2


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## MartialHorror (Jun 13, 2020)

I tried to watch it at one point and yeah... the animation just didn't do it for me. I struggle getting into TV shows anyway.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mael (Jun 17, 2020)

Genndy is an acquired taste tbh tbf.


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## Gunners (Jun 17, 2020)

I felt that way at first but it reaches a point where you can't picture it any other way.


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## Velocity (Jun 18, 2020)

Gunners said:


> I felt that way at first but it reaches a point where you can't picture it any other way.



I love how Maul never once used the Force in that fight. He let Viszla use every trick in the book yet used none of his own and still won. Given what we saw in those last few episodes of The Clone Wars, after Order 66, dude could’ve torn the whole building down if he wanted.


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## Gunners (Jun 18, 2020)

Clay said:


> I love how Maul never once used the Force in that fight. He let Viszla use every trick in the book yet used none of his own and still won. Given what we saw in those last few episodes of The Clone Wars, after Order 66, dude could’ve torn the whole building down if he wanted.




He fought him as a warrior. Got to give him props.




The series did a great job fleshing his character out.


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## Fang (Jun 27, 2020)

Reminder the Sequels were a mistake.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Velocity (Jun 27, 2020)

Fang said:


> Reminder the Sequels were a mistake.



I'm still pissed we could've had a black guy go from stormtrooper to Jedi, from deserter to revolutionary, from coward to hero... and instead we got Finn.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 27, 2020)

Clay said:


> I'm still pissed we could've had a black guy go from stormtrooper to Jedi, from deserter to revolutionary, from coward to hero... and instead we got Finn.



You didn't like his heroic journey from storm trooper to space janitor?


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## Pilaf (Jun 28, 2020)

There's rumors that Disney is going to soft retcon or downright pretend the sequels didn't happen going forward.


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## Velocity (Jun 28, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> There's rumors that Disney is going to soft retcon or downright pretend the sequels didn't happen going forward.



They can just ignore them. Skip centuries ahead, show us a renewed Jedi Order and have statues of the Jedi Grandmasters of old somewhere. That way they can put Yoda, Luke and Rey in among them and say no more because it’s not relevant to the story they’re telling.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 28, 2020)

Clay said:


> They can just ignore them. Skip centuries ahead, show us a renewed Jedi Order and have statues of the Jedi Grandmasters of old somewhere. That way they can put Yoda, Luke and Rey in among them and say no more because it’s not relevant to the story they’re telling.


Nah better to just retcon anything from the sequels out than leave them in since that still means they happened and the old trios efforts to restore the Republic and rebuild the Jedi Order failed.


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## Pilaf (Jun 28, 2020)

They kind of have an out, because GL designed the entire SW universe to be a second or third hand account from the Journal of the Whills. They could always cite a major transcription error or a forgery being read for these movies.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 28, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> They kind of have an out, because GL designed the entire SW universe to be a second or third hand account from the Journal of the Whills. They could always cite a major transcription error or a forgery being read for these movies.


Sounds unnecessary since so few people even read the original novelization of the film so it would just make more sense to say they are no longer canon on social media or just pull a days of future past to retcon that shit.


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## Velocity (Jun 28, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Nah better to just retcon anything from the sequels out than leave them in since that still means they happened and the old trios efforts to restore the Republic and rebuild the Jedi Order failed.



They opened Pandora's Box. You can't undo that. The best thing you can do for everyone involved is to simply move on and never bring it up again.

I s'pose you could say that the temple Ben burned to the ground was only one of them and Luke had set up many across the galaxy, isolated from the outside world to prevent distractions. As such there were hundreds of Jedi, either being taught by Luke himself or by Jedi that survived Order 66 and/or the Empire, but they were strictly forbidden from involvement in Republic affairs after what happened the last time.

But it's probably easier to just move on and never mention anything that happened in those three movies ever again.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 28, 2020)

Clay said:


> They opened Pandora's Box. You can't undo that. The best thing you can do for everyone involved is to simply move on and never bring it up again.


No the best you can do is just erase it and start over. That's exactly what Disney did to the Old EU because of "limitations on creativity" and in far less time they have made an even worse mess with a film trilogy even more hated and an EU that's more of a disaster in less than a decade. No reason why the same cannot happen again. Hell just establish something like multiple timelines or universes and bring the old EU back in publishing so that old time fans can have something if they are going to be adamant to force themselves to stick to this doomed timeline.


Clay said:


> I s'pose you could say that the temple Ben burned to the ground was only one of them and Luke had set up many across the galaxy, isolated from the outside world to prevent distractions. As such there were hundreds of Jedi, either being taught by Luke himself or by Jedi that survived Order 66 and/or the Empire, but they were strictly forbidden from involvement in Republic affairs after what happened the last time.


Yeah no does not work, just like all the retcons and alterations in the novels and twatter posts after ROS. In the end it's all damage control desperate to fix the problems already in present and forced to try so hard to make Luke not a failure when if there were so many Jedi they would have shown up in the Sequels and their absence would only introduce more plot holes than if they all died like the films made them out.


Clay said:


> But it's probably easier to just move on and never mention anything that happened in those three movies ever again.


Just continue the old EU timeline as separate or just erase the Disney verse entirely. Nothing more complicated than that.


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## Pilaf (Jun 28, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Sounds unnecessary since so few people even read the original novelization of the film so it would just make more sense to say they are no longer canon on social media or just pull a days of future past to retcon that shit.



For a Star Wars fan, unnecessary detail is the bread and butter. Look through Wookieepedia sometime. Every single small item that's ever appeared on screen has an elaborate backstory. That's what people expect. When you have the opportunity to spew a ton of BS to explain something or to retcon it, this is the exact right franchise for that.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 28, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> For a Star Wars fan, unnecessary detail is the bread and butter. Look through Wookieepedia sometime. Every single small item that's ever appeared on screen has an elaborate backstory. That's what people expect. When you have the opportunity to spew a ton of BS to explain something or to retcon it, this is the exact right franchise for that.


See the problem is that's the minority. It's only thanks to a growing number of people interested in the Old EU posting their finds on you tube and such after it got canned that more and more people learned about it and all the various items like you said but even with Disney saying "everything made now is canon" people were still confused as all hell on what the fuck was going on in the galaxy for shit to be the way it is in the sequels, which tells us even saying it is all canon does not help get a majority of people interested to look at all the side materials you put out. If anything forcing people to look this shit up just to figure things out backfired and cost them more audiences than what they could gain.


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## Gunners (Jun 29, 2020)

They're not going to erase films that made billions .

It would effectively tell the fanbase that they invested their time and money in nothing. We're not talking about an irrelevant segment of the market here (diehard fans who followed the books for decades). We are talking about impressionable casuals who know just enough to question why a story was erased.

Just set the story in a new era or part of the universe.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 29, 2020)

"Muh billions" means jack shit nowadays. The sequels cost more than they made and Disney's attempts to sell merchandise by making everything canon backfired hard and turned the most profitable movie franchise in history into a broken shadow of its former self that is more of a burden than a benefit.

The fanbase at large is dissatisfied and unenthusiastic with the direction the series is taking and the films have failed to garner newer and younger fans as shown by multiple statistics and reports. Even people working on these films could not give a rat's ass about it and have outright mocked them so pretending these mess of a trilogy should be kept is the hight of delusions.


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## Velocity (Jun 29, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> The sequels cost more than they made



Do you have any proof to back that up? 'cause last I heard the trilogy cost about $850m and made almost $4.5bn at the box office. I'm sure they were actually extremely profitable.

Disney ain't gonna erase them. Like I said, they'll just move on and never bring them up again.


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## Gunners (Jun 29, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "Muh billions" means jack shit nowadays. The sequels cost more than they made and Disney's attempts to sell merchandise by making everything canon backfired hard and turned the most profitable movie franchise in history into a broken shadow of its former self that is more of a burden than a benefit.





Thinking "Muh billions" put Disney in a position to buy Star Wars and have their way with.

The films turned out to be quite lucrative. They own Star Wars so they can continue to milk it.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 29, 2020)

Clay said:


> Do you have any proof to back that up? 'cause last I heard the trilogy cost about $850m and made almost $4.5bn at the box office. I'm sure they were actually extremely profitable.
> 
> Disney ain't gonna erase them. Like I said, they'll just move on and never bring them up again.



It's a bit more complicated than that, as Disney isn't going to get all of the gross and there's a 4 billion purchase debt. Whether they've turned out a profit depends on merchandising. While I keep hearing how that's on a decline, I've yet to hear any concrete numbers on whether any money was lost or earned. 

Erasing the sequels from canon wouldn't do shit though. It would just confuse general audiences, piss off those who liked the ST and not even have a guarantee that the purists would even like what the sequels would replace them with. 

The smartest thing at this point would be to move on, but I think to do that, Disney needs to move away from nostalgia baiting. Younger audiences aren't going to care as much as really, that's whom the brand should be targeting.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 29, 2020)

Clay said:


> Do you have any proof to back that up? 'cause last I heard the trilogy cost about $850m and made almost $4.5bn at the box office. I'm sure they were actually extremely profitable.


The Star Wars license itself was bought for 4 bill on it's own and your profits themselves would include the other two minor films like RO and Solo(which bombed) which all would add more cost for both their production, marketing, and distributing rights. Not to mention the vast amounts of toys and other merchandise on the sequels they payed for that also went under and did not sell as well as they hoped and you are looking at something far, far less impressive than you are making it out to be.

Reactions: Like 2


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 29, 2020)

Gunners said:


> Thinking "Muh billions" put Disney in a position to buy Star Wars and have their way with.


"their way" Ended up plummeting the IP to depths it may never recover from.


Gunners said:


> The films turned out to be quite lucrative.


A statement as false as your claims of being a lawyer.


Gunners said:


> They own Star Wars so they can continue to milk it.


Not when it keeps costing them more than it earns in the long run.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gunners (Jun 29, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "their way" Ended up plummeting the IP to depths it may never recover from.
> 
> A statement as false as your claims of being a lawyer.
> 
> Not when it keeps costing them more than it earns in the long run.




Do you just distort reality to support your vexation? Stop trying to hammer a square into a circle and accept the numbers for what they are.

It is embarrassing that you are more or less struggling to accept that 4 is a greater than 1.


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## Velocity (Jun 29, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> The Star Wars license itself was bought for 4 bill on it's own and your profits themselves would include the other two minor films like RO and Solo(which bombed) which all would add more cost for both their production, marketing, and distributing rights. Not to mention the vast amounts of toys and other merchandise on the sequels they payed for that also went under and did not sell as well as they hoped and you are looking at something far, far less impressive than you are making it out to be.



I mean, according to The Economist, before Rise of Skywalker even came out...



> Disney acquired Lucasfilm, the franchise’s owner, from its creator, George Lucas, for $4.1bn in 2012. The four “Star Wars” films it has made since then have grossed nearly $5bn in ticket sales. Disney has also hauled in billions in sales of merchandise, theme-park passes and promotional tie-ins.



I dunno where your doom and gloom angle is coming from because they've clearly made their money back and then some. Star Wars hasn't been unprofitable for Disney at all and it's not going to be.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jun 29, 2020)

Gunners said:


> Do you just distort reality to support your vexation?


Reality is this mess of a trilogy fell far under expectations and your denial of that fact means nothing.


Gunners said:


> Stop trying to hammer a square into a circle and accept the numbers for what they are.


Sound advice for yourself but don't see why it would be directed towards me.


Gunners said:


> It is embarrassing that you are more or less struggling to accept that 4 is a greater than 1.


Not as embarrassing as you pretending making back barely a small quarter more of the profits you spent make a good business deal.


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## Gunners (Jun 29, 2020)

They purchased Star Wars in 2012 and they've already made a return on their investment.

I find it amusing that someone can be so rude when they clearly don't have a clue what they're talking about. It is like your hatred is fuelling your delusions and arrogance.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 29, 2020)

Clay said:


> I mean, according to The Economist, before Rise of Skywalker even came out...


Only The Economist?


> Disney acquired Lucasfilm, the franchise’s owner, from its creator, George Lucas, for $4.1bn in 2012. The four “Star Wars” films it has made since then have *grossed nearly $5bn in ticket sales.* Disney has also hauled in billions in sales of merchandise, theme-park passes and promotional tie-ins.


"nearly" being the key word here, and even than, that's a lousy number for a franchise they spent billions more for all the various media even outside the films themselves.


Clay said:


> I dunno where your doom and gloom angle is coming from because they've clearly made their money back and then some. Star Wars hasn't been unprofitable for Disney at all and it's not going to be.


Yeah you have no clue what "profitable" is if you think only barely coming to 5 bill for a franchise which you bought, produced, marketed, and distributed for more is doing well.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 29, 2020)

Gunners said:


> They purchased Star Wars in 2012 and they've already made a return on their investment.


"already" lol you speak as if they did in no time flat when it took them almost a decade to do so and even than they only got back returns from when they bought it, not for all the other shit they spent on it.


Gunners said:


> I find it amusing that someone can be so rude when they clearly don't have a clue what they're talking about. It is like your hatred is fuelling your delusions and arrogance.


I can see your self projection from outer space.


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## Gunners (Jun 29, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "already" lol you speak as if they did in no time flat when it took them almost a decade to do so and even than they only got back returns from when they bought it, not for all the other shit they spent on it.
> 
> I can see your self projection from outer space.



I'm not speaking as though they did it in no time flat. Most people don't struggle with numbers so when I say 2012, it is given that I mean they made their money back in 8 years, which is a good thing when considering the money they will make on their purchase in the decades to come.

Either this is a subject you don't understand or you're letting your hatred cloud your senses.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 29, 2020)

.... So does anyone actually know how much money the merchandise either lost or profited?


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 29, 2020)

Gunners said:


> I'm not speaking as though they did it in no time flat.


You clearly implied as such with the wording of "already" as if they did when it took them over half a decade and when they had already spent billions more to create content and get it out to audiences.


Gunners said:


> Most people don't struggle with numbers so when I say 2012, it is given that I mean they made their money back in 8 years


You clearly are the one struggling if you think only making back what you payed up front and not what you further spent on after almost a decade is being successful.


Gunners said:


> which is a good thing when considering the money they will make on their purchase in the decades to come.


HA, not likely, as we saw from the Sequels progressively losing more and more people as they went, mostly from TLJ cutting off more people from the franchise than any other and ROS continuing that trend despite marketing itself as the 'The Last in the Skywalker Saga". We already saw SOLO bomb and Comics, Toys, books, and anything else have taken hits that further damage the IP as marketable.


Gunners said:


> Either this is a subject you don't understand or you're letting your hatred cloud your senses.


I know a guy named Pot who I would like to introduce to you Kettle.


----------



## Velocity (Jun 29, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> .... So does anyone actually know how much money the merchandise either lost or profited?



There's not much to go on but, according to Nielson, Star Wars made about $5~6 billion in merchandise sales in the 2015 fiscal year alone and analysts say that's pretty consistent for years where a Star Wars movie is released. If that's true, then you're looking at at least $15bn in merchandise sales over the last eight years since Disney bought Star Wars.

Of course, all merchandise sales are shrinking across the board. It's not just a Star Wars thing. Kids just don't really buy as many toys any more and, for the Star Wars sequel trilogy in particular, there just weren't enough new designs to draw from.

Saying Star Wars is doomed is like saying Nintendo is doomed. You're just deluding yourself into thinking the world is ending because you don't like the property.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 29, 2020)

Clay said:


> There's not much to go on but, according to Nielson, Star Wars made about $5~6 billion in merchandise sales in the 2015 fiscal year alone


Do you have any link or source for that back that claim? Where is the Nielson article you claim this and do you realize you would be ignoring the cost as well for such things right? Because for example it was stated a single galaxy's edge park cost 1 bill on it's own.


They all flopped just so you know.


Clay said:


> and analysts say that's pretty consistent for years where a Star Wars movie is released. If that's true, then you're looking at at least $15bn in merchandise sales over the last eight years since Disney bought Star Wars.





NostalgiaFan said:


> Wrong



Based on what I already posted in this thread? Not likely.


Clay said:


> Of course, all merchandise sales are shrinking across the board. It's not just a Star Wars thing. Kids just don't really buy as many toys any more and, for the Star Wars sequel trilogy in particular, there just weren't enough new designs to draw from.


Except even in toys they were being beaten by Marvel so even that excuse does not hold.


Clay said:


> Saying Star Wars is doomed is like saying Nintendo is doomed. You're just deluding yourself into thinking the world is ending because you don't like the property.


No one is saying Star Wars will never exist anymore, it's just no where near the guaranteed success it was before and will only shrink more and more as the years go by unless a new direction is taken that invites both old and new fans again


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Jun 29, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> There's rumors that Disney is going to soft retcon or downright pretend the sequels didn't happen going forward.



I doubt it. Disney declaring their own sequels non canon would be an open admission of defeat which is something an overly arrogant corporation would never do. The movies cost millions to make and if the shareholders consider this to have been a mistake then none of the executives that held any power during this time will be safe. For the sake of the reputation of the company as well as their own personal careers no one at Disney has the motive to strive for this outcome. 

That and its also just _weird_. How would Disney go about explaining this to the average movie-goer? Wouldn't they get terrible confused if Disney said that all those big movies with their much hyped releases secretly didn't matter and that the real story will be told in a whole new set of movies or comics the average fan never heard of?

There is precedent of material vanishing from the canon. The old EU was declared its own continuity but that was really easy due to the mainstream viewer likely not even knowing all that material existed. With a whole new sequel trilogy this will become a lot harder to pull off.


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## Mider T (Jun 29, 2020)

^Its an Elseworld type situation.   Apparently introduced in Rebels.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 30, 2020)

5 billion in Ticket sales and say 1.7 billion in toy sales _again assuming disney's not committing fraud which the sec says it is.
_
and I'm dismissing the 5 bil figure for 2015 because that is complete horseshit. My guess is their take away over five years of SW films is likely 1-4 billion. 

Measured against 7 billion in loss

hrmmmm


----------



## MartialHorror (Jun 30, 2020)

Honestly the problem with this argument is we don't really know what Disney's expectations were. The numbers are obviously lower than expected, but I question how much merchandising actually brings in as Lucas himself (or Lucasfilms) has apparently been close to bankruptcy in the past. He himself didn't think the studio would survive long after his death, which is why he sold it in the first place. 

Has Disney ever given an estimate on when they expected to have the debt paid off? It's possible that they expected a 5-10 year wait before actually making a profit. 

It should also be remembered that they didn't just buy Star Wars, but Lucasfilm as a whole, so they haven't even started reaping potential Indiana Jones profits. 

Although the real money clearly lies within "Howard the Duck".


----------



## Velocity (Jun 30, 2020)

Mider T said:


> ^Its an Elseworld type situation.   Apparently introduced in Rebels.



Have you actually read that article? It’s just fanboy drivel. 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not exactly a fan of the sequel trilogy, but when a guy called Doomcock says Disney will “retcon the Sequel Trilogy out of our misery and restore freedom to George Lucas' galaxy,” you know it’s a load of shit. Disney isn’t going to use one of the worst, most stupid one-off ideas in Rebels to retcon a multi-billion dollar trilogy just because of some whiny fanboys. Does what happened to Luke and the gang suck? Yes, but they can always mend that at least a little without resorting to time travel. You can totally just ignore the sequel trilogy going forward and never bring up the events in it again, which isn’t especially difficult since hardly anything happens anyway. The First Order shows up and a year later they’re defeated.

What Star Wars needs to honour the original gang is an animated show set between Return of the Jedi and The Mandalorian. Palpatine and Vader are dead and the Empire has become a free for all, chaotic power struggle between the most powerful leaders of the Empire as they struggle to maintain control of the galaxy. The Inquisitors no longer have a boss but they still have Jedi to hunt and thanks to Luke’s efforts the Jedi that were hiding because of Order 66 and Imperial rule have begun to return to the open, including of course the likes of Ezra Bridget and Ahsoka Tano. Show us Luke training a new padawan, much like how The Clone Wars introduced Ahsoka, and tell the story of the birth of the New Republic and a new Jedi Order. If you want, you can totally soft retcon the Jedi aspect and say Luke founded multiple Jedi Temples across the galaxy and Ben only destroyed one of them.

That’d be much better than trying to erase an entire trilogy of movies just because they sucked. At that point you might as well erase the prequel trilogy too and just keep The Clone Wars.


----------



## Mider T (Jun 30, 2020)

Clay said:


> Have you actually read that article? It’s just fanboy drivel.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, I’m not exactly a fan of the sequel trilogy, but when a guy called Doomcock says Disney will “retcon the Sequel Trilogy out of our misery and restore freedom to George Lucas' galaxy,” you know it’s a load of shit. Disney isn’t going to use one of the worst, most stupid one-off ideas in Rebels to retcon a multi-billion dollar trilogy just because of some whiny fanboys. Does what happened to Luke and the gang suck? Yes, but they can always mend that at least a little without resorting to time travel. You can totally just ignore the sequel trilogy going forward and never bring up the events in it again, which isn’t especially difficult since hardly anything happens anyway. The First Order shows up and a year later they’re defeated.
> 
> ...


Its a rumor a of the trilogy being retconned and the theory is about how they will do it.  Just erasing it is dumb.


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## Velocity (Jun 30, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Its a rumor a of the trilogy being retconned and the theory is about how they will do it.  Just erasing it is dumb.



They’re not going to erase it and they’re at most only going to retcon certain details. Star Wars introduced quite a few Jedi that survived Order 66 and were active during Imperial rule, for example, despite Yoda and Obi-Wan implying they were the only two left. It’ll be like that - the whole “Luke being the last Jedi” thing will just be thrown out the window and the failed Jedi Order he tried to build will be revealed to have been quite successful, with Jedi from before the fall of the Republic teaching the Jedi that appeared since the Empire rose.

Heck, release a book or three set after Rise of Skywalker with Rey and Finn finding the Jedi that Luke had gathered and joining his Jedi Order proper. Maybe even have Mara Jade Skywalker involved as someone that’s actually okay with Rey taking the Skywalker name, even if many of the other Jedi aren’t too happy with the idea, as they tackle this Sith Eternal that was pulling the strings of the First Order.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 30, 2020)

Wait, Doomcock is at the center of this? 

Shit, that means Midnight's Edge will release another 100 videos milking the rumor. Not even going to check, lol.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 30, 2020)

People are underestimating the power of Baby Yoda.
The little guy alone will force choke the hell out of even the casual crowd's wallets in terms of merchandising.

The sequels are a flop with merch, though.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jun 30, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> People are underestimating the power of Baby Yoda.
> The little guy alone will force choke the hell out of even the casual crowd's wallets in terms of merchandising.
> 
> The sequels are a flop with merch, though.


Thing is that baby yoda does not belong in the Sequels


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## Mider T (Jun 30, 2020)

Gunners said:


> I'm not speaking as though they did it in no time flat. Most people don't struggle with numbers so when I say 2012, it is given that I mean they made their money back in 8 years, which is a good thing when considering the money they will make on their purchase in the decades to come.
> 
> Either this is a subject you don't understand or you're letting your hatred cloud your senses.


It really was a dumb thing for him to say.  This isn't unique to Star Wars, Disney does this with properties all the time.


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## Gunners (Jun 30, 2020)

Mider T said:


> It really was a dumb thing for him to say.  This isn't unique to Star Wars, Disney does this with properties all the time.



It is baffling. 

I don't know if it is just general stupidity or stubbornness.


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## MartialHorror (Jun 30, 2020)

Everyone has an agenda. Star Wars is just a battleground for it.


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## Velocity (Jun 30, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Everyone has an agenda. Star Wars is just a battleground for it.



My only Star Wars agenda is "lightsabers are fuckin' awesome".

Reactions: Like 2


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 30, 2020)

If and I stress Iffffff Disney were to denounce the sequel trilogy. They would do it the way someone else in the thread suggested.

Skip a millennia ahead and have some redheaded Jedi chick with the Skywalker or Jade last name make a throw away like about those "silly holodramas that were made awhile ago"

Or some crap.

Disney is hated now for a variety of reasons. But mouth breathing leftist and other wastes of genetic material still slavishly throw money at it and while they're on the verge or criminal indictments over fraud and bankruptcy I doubt they'll alienate the woke cult since its the only thing keeping them afloat at present


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jul 1, 2020)

Watched this for the first time 


I meaann the movie was still shit, fell asleep in the middle for 25 min,  but damn this fight... Maul going the full 12 rounds with two Jedi 

The anticipation and look on Obi Wan before the energy wall comes down in the last round and the bell rings 

This is also a young Obi before he grows his crispy af beard and perfects his sass 

Im only familiar with Obi in the first 2 seasons of Clone Wars and new hope


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## Mider T (Jul 1, 2020)

Why would you watch Clone Wars before Episodes I and II?


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jul 1, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Why would you watch Clone Wars before Episodes I and II?



My animated tv watch list and movie watch list are two different things and don't align


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## Pilaf (Jul 1, 2020)

You're gonna spoil the best part of the prequels if you watch the tv show first.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 1, 2020)

Just out of curiosity, are the prequels... spoiler immune like the old trilogy is? Because I feel like every twist and turn in the OT has become so iconic that you automatically know about them before even seeing the movies. I recall even as a kid knowing that Obi Wan was doomed and that Darth Vader was Luke's Dad, etc. 

Beyond the obvious OT related stuff (Anakin going bad), are the prequels twists and turns also common knowledge?


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## Gunners (Jul 1, 2020)

The prequels don't have twists.

Suppose you can call Mace Windu (the black Jedi) putting it in Darth Sidious' ass a twist.


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## Velocity (Jul 1, 2020)

Yeah the prequels are very straightforward. Honestly you should probably only really watch them now to set up The Clone Wars ‘cause that’s where the real meat of the prequels (and the best Star Wars content) is.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Jul 1, 2020)

Clay said:


> What Star Wars needs to honour the original gang is an animated show set between Return of the Jedi and The Mandalorian. Palpatine and Vader are dead and the Empire has become a free for all, chaotic power struggle between the most powerful leaders of the Empire as they struggle to maintain control of the galaxy. The Inquisitors no longer have a boss but they still have Jedi to hunt and thanks to Luke’s efforts the Jedi that were hiding because of Order 66 and Imperial rule have begun to return to the open, including of course the likes of Ezra Bridget and Ahsoka Tano. Show us Luke training a new padawan, much like how The Clone Wars introduced Ahsoka, and tell the story of the birth of the New Republic and a new Jedi Order. If you want, you can totally soft retcon the Jedi aspect and say Luke founded multiple Jedi Temples across the galaxy and Ben only destroyed one of them.



They could do such a show but I think its going to fail. Its hard to get invested in a post Episode VI storyline when you know its just going to end with a bunch of third rate villains casually bringing down everything Luke and co managed to achieve in such a show. Any padawan Luke would have is doomed to get killed by lousy villains, and any rise Lea managed to make in the Republic will also end up getting undone by lousy villains. Nothing in such a show would matter.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jul 1, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> You're gonna spoil the best part of the prequels if you watch the tv show first.



I already know the story for the most part

the only surprise ive had so far is how shit jar jar is lol


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## MartialHorror (Jul 1, 2020)

I think the best course of action is to move on, build up new characters and stories.

Edit: They should also consider appealing to younger audiences. Even as a kid I didn't give a shit about "The Phantom Menace", but I loved my Darth Maul toy. Say what you will about Lucas as a storyteller, he knew how to merchandise. 

Trying to bring back the hardcore fans isn't going to improve things... unless the  next trilogy causes people to think "HMMMMM, maybe the last one wasn't so bad" promptingabizarreattemptorewritehistorysuchaswasthecasewiththeprequels *ahem*

Meanwhile, general audiences are more interested in Marvel right now, so trying to maintain a similar pace is just going to force those who can't afford to see every movie choose between one -- and Marvel is simply the hotter property.


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## Pilaf (Jul 2, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> I already know the story for the most part
> 
> the only surprise ive had so far is how shit jar jar is lol



Maybe you'll appreciate him more after Clone Wars. He's actually somewhat funny there.


----------



## Pilaf (Jul 2, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Just out of curiosity, are the prequels... spoiler immune like the old trilogy is? Because I feel like every twist and turn in the OT has become so iconic that you automatically know about them before even seeing the movies. I recall even as a kid knowing that Obi Wan was doomed and that Darth Vader was Luke's Dad, etc.
> 
> Beyond the obvious OT related stuff (Anakin going bad), are the prequels twists and turns also common knowledge?



I've watched a few zoomers reacting to the prequels for the first time on Youtube lately and a lot of the prequel tropes are completely unknown to them. Some of them didn't even figure out who Palpatine was until episode III. I was spoiled on that back in the nineties when all the action figures called the Emperor "Emperor Palpatine".


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## Mider T (Jul 5, 2020)




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## Velocity (Jul 5, 2020)

What a clusterfuck.


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## Mider T (Jul 5, 2020)

Clay said:


> What a clusterfuck.


I think it makes the movie alot clearer now that we have an explanation.


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## Velocity (Jul 5, 2020)

Mider T said:


> I think it makes the movie alot clearer now that we have an explanation.



Just makes the whole thing even more stupid to me. 

If they were really this intent on bringing Palpatine back all they had to say was that he already told Anakin in Revenge of the Sith that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, including how to cheat death and save others from dying, but Palpatine never intended to pass on that knowledge to Vader. It has a fatal flaw and, if Palpatine could exploit that fatal flaw to kill Plagueis for good, Vader could use it to do the same to him.

In fact they could have taken such a plot point and used it as the backbone of the entire trilogy, with the meat of it of course still being the conflict against the First Order:

Episode VII - the First Order appears, claiming to be led by Emperor Palpatine himself and the heroes try to find out the truth while stopping the First Order from taking over the galaxy;

Episode VIII - the heroes find out Palpatine really is still alive somehow, so Luke and Leia face him but find they cannot kill him so they're forced to flee;

Episode IX - the heroes learn the weakness of Palpatine's immortality, which they find out is that he cannot be killed by hatred, so his granddaughter kills him out of pity.


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## Mider T (Jul 5, 2020)

Clay said:


> Just makes the whole thing even more stupid to me.
> 
> If they were really this intent on bringing Palpatine back all they had to say was that he already told Anakin in Revenge of the Sith that Plagueis taught him everything he knew, including how to cheat death and save others from dying, but Palpatine never intended to pass on that knowledge to Vader. It has a fatal flaw and, if Palpatine could exploit that fatal flaw to kill Plagueis for good, Vader could use it to do the same to him.
> 
> ...


We already knew that Palpatine never completely trusted Vader, he knew he wasn't the perfect apprentice from after his injuries on Mustafar.  This just fleshes out his motivations a bit more (and explains Rey's conception).


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 5, 2020)

It's clear as hell this is all desperate retcons made after release to make said film less of a clusterfuck only to further the problem instead of helping it. Disney is knew they fucked up and are now constantly making up shit to fix plot points like the incompetent retards they are when they should have paid more attention to them while filming instead of relaying on outside sources just to explain the movie your audience is watching.


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## Mider T (Jul 5, 2020)

"Its all Disney's fault!"


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 5, 2020)

"The company that has bought and has control over Lucasfilm had nothing to do with the films "


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## MartialHorror (Jul 5, 2020)

I sometimes find it funny when people say "Disney is incompetent", because it's a studio filled with a variety of people and even if they bungled Star Wars, they do own Marvel -- the biggest thing ever -- and somehow found a successful formula in the live action remakes of past films trend that no one wants... but pays for anyway...

I get arguments that Lucasfilms is incompetent or Kathleen Kennedy is incompetent, but they probably target Disney because they don't want to acknowledge that George Lucas put Kennedy in that role... Disney inherited her from him. So if Disney is 'incompetent' for this, then so is George Lucas...

Of course, it's also more entertaining to bash Disney because of how big it is... I think on some level, we all have this fear of Disney surpassing Governments and literally ruling the world. I have this funny image in my head of Luke going to the Emperor's homeworld to discover that it was Earth... and the flag waving is of a certain mouse...


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 5, 2020)

Disney's business with other companies is irrelevant when discussing it's incompetence with SW.


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## Mider T (Jul 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "The company that has bought and has control over Lucasfilm had nothing to do with the films "


Correct.  This isn't Disney's first rodeo, they don't interfere in Pixar's creative process either.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 5, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Correct.  This isn't Disney's first rodeo, they don't interfere in Pixar's creative process either.


Nah the film literally went through multiple cuts and showings just before being shown across worldwide theaters. Pretending they had nothing to do with the production of the film is delusional.


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## Mider T (Jul 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Nah the film literally went through multiple cuts and showings just before being shown across worldwide theaters. Pretending they had nothing to do with the production of the film is delusional.


Yeah because its Star Wars.  Like any long running franchise a new production team is going to work on it tirelessly.  You're just noticing now because you don't follow the film industry like that.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 5, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Yeah because its Star Wars.  *Like any long running franchise a new production team is going to work on it tirelessly.*  You're just noticing now because you don't follow the film industry like that.


That's not what you were arguing for in the first place Einstein.


NostalgiaFan said:


> "The company that has bought and has control over Lucasfilm *had nothing to do with the films* "





Mider T said:


> *Correct*.  This isn't Disney's first rodeo, they don't interfere in Pixar's creative process either.


You seriously argued Disney had nothing to do with it. Way to lie and back-paddle Sherlock.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 5, 2020)

And in the end it changes nothing of the original point that these films were a mess and the practice of retconing shit after a films release to even make sense of a movie's plot is a laughable example of studio incompetence.


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## Mider T (Jul 5, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> That's not what you were arguing for in the first place Einstein.
> 
> 
> You seriously argued Disney had nothing to do with it. Way to lie and back-paddle Sherlock.


Why are you being condescending?. Disney not interfering in the creative process and the reshoots were never even implied to be correlated.  You made connection in your weak mind.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 5, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Why are you being condescending?.


If correcting you on your inconsistent logic is being condescending than that's just your own fault for not paying attention to your own posts before typing.


Mider T said:


> Disney not interfering in the creative process and the reshoots were never even implied to be correlated.


1.You literally stated my sarcastic response on Disney not being involved whatsoever was in fact correct with no irony.
2. Only a moron thinks Disney is not involved in the creative process whatsoever when they have outright disallowed shit like dismemberment in any other SW media nowadays and always been mentioned in outlining news about what is canon or not.  


Mider T said:


> You made connection in your weak mind.


Wrong, you're just denying any connection because you can't take an L.


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## Velocity (Jul 10, 2020)




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## Big Bob (Jul 10, 2020)

Anakin would've realised how bad a lover Palpy would be and turn him into the council.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jul 10, 2020)

Finished watching the prequel trilogy and now I finally join the war of ultimate good versus the true dark side...


*Spoiler*: __ 




prequels > sequel trilogy

I've seen all the arguments for and against the prequels but it is still a much more coherent story than the sequels. This is mostly the TLJ's fault for the sequels. Also the sequels doesn't have anyone with more finesse, competence, more handsome, and a crispier beard than Obi.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Jul 11, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I sometimes find it funny when people say "Disney is incompetent", because it's a studio filled with a variety of people and even if they bungled Star Wars, they do own Marvel -- the biggest thing ever -- and somehow found a successful formula in the live action remakes of past films trend that no one wants... but pays for anyway...



The Mouse works in mysterious ways. I heard it said that Bob Igner had quite a hand in the sequel movies and not in a positive way. Supposedly the idea of returning to the Stormtrooper vs Rebels days and making The Force Awakens a scene for scene reboot of A New Hope was his idea. That would make Igner and thus Disney responsible for the nonsensical world building of the sequel era.

Its possible that Disney didn't interfere much with Marvel because it were just a bunch of quirky comic books for nerds at first and successful enough to just keep what they were doing water. Its also possible Disney forced a more direct hand on Star Wars because it was so big, too big to fail and that the prequel era being controversial gave them reasons to step in and prevent the new movies from being so badly received. Oh, the irony.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Jul 11, 2020)

I wonder if an outdated view on the prequels isn't what helped neck the new trilogy. Its hardly a secret that Disney chose to stick very close to the first trilogy while distancing itself from anything to do with the prequels. The Republic barely being a thing, Corusant being completely absent and even the more epic lightsaber battles which people _liked _from the prequels being gone are all examples of that.

I've always maintained that Disney's problematic handling of Star Wars wasn't due to being ''woke'' but due to being extremely corporate. And on paper, on cold, corporate paper it makes sense to ditch the prequels completely. The original movies were universally beloved while the Prequels were a _punchline _for years. One could argue Star Wars experienced a steep decline in that period, a decline Disney could ''fix''. 

But such ignores that the prequels have gone through some serous rehabilitation over the years. The sequels being garbage greatly helped with that but it was already happening before that. Its lines have become very good spirited memes over the years, its more positive aspects have gotten more recognition and the influx of younger fans not bitter about them ''betraying'' the old films has reached it peek now the fans that grew up with them are adults too. 

The disdain the sequels have for the prequels strikes me as your typical corporate accountant knowing of the negative reaction at the time due to market research but not having the emotional attachment in Star Wars to have realize their rehabilitation.


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## Velocity (Jul 11, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> Finished watching the prequel trilogy and now I finally join the war of ultimate good versus the true dark side...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



It really boils down to ambition, I think. The prequels were pretty crap but they were ambitious crap. Lucas tried to do completely weird things that nobody else would and he deserves points for effort if not execution.

Plus, yeah, there's an actual story going on. The trilogy is about the fall of Anakin Skywalker. He started off as a kid who believed in the Jedi, then became a teenager who realised the Jedi weren't all he hoped they would be, to a man who understood the Jedi were actually the problem.

The sequel trilogy has no ambition and the movies actively contradict each other about the story they're trying to tell, so it’s hard to get invested.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jul 11, 2020)

Clay said:


> It really boils down to ambition, I think. The prequels were pretty crap but they were ambitious crap. Lucas tried to do completely weird things that nobody else would and he deserves points for effort if not execution.
> 
> Plus, yeah, there's an actual story going on. The trilogy is about the fall of Anakin Skywalker. He started off as a kid who believed in the Jedi, then became a teenager who realised the Jedi weren't all he hoped they would be, to a man who understood the Jedi were actually the problem.
> 
> The sequel trilogy has no ambition and the movies actively contradict each other about the story they're trying to tell, so it’s hard to get invested.



The trilogy also borders on so bad that its good territory. i didnt even mind that Anakin is so badly written. i cant even recognize that he is the same character in the prequels and the clone wars. My fav was ROTS because of how childish, ruthless and insecure he was. It was hilarious. Killing those kids was so random lmao.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 11, 2020)

It is funny hearing about all of these old movies doing so well at the box office. It almost makes me want to see them of these on the big screen again. I did see TESB when the special edition was released in theaters in the 1990's.


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## Turrin (Jul 13, 2020)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> I wonder if an outdated view on the prequels isn't what helped neck the new trilogy. Its hardly a secret that Disney chose to stick very close to the first trilogy while distancing itself from anything to do with the prequels. The Republic barely being a thing, Corusant being completely absent and even the more epic lightsaber battles which people _liked _from the prequels being gone are all examples of that.
> 
> I've always maintained that Disney's problematic handling of Star Wars wasn't due to being ''woke'' but due to being extremely corporate. And on paper, on cold, corporate paper it makes sense to ditch the prequels completely. The original movies were universally beloved while the Prequels were a _punchline _for years. One could argue Star Wars experienced a steep decline in that period, a decline Disney could ''fix''.
> 
> ...


Nah Disney’s problem was simply the fact that they didn’t have one director for the entire trilogy. It’s literally that simple. They thought they could do different directors because of how they handle Marvel, but a Trilogy is different from simply a series of movies like Iron Man 1-3. And they realize this after the TLJ, so they brought Abrams back for ROS, but because Abrams didn’t have a second movie to properly flesh out the characters RoS was also a mess.

If they had just had Abrams for all 3 movies it would have likely been a decent sequel in that Abrams would have probably just done a remix on dark empire and done a decent job with the second movie to flesh it out. Like wise I think if Johnson did the whole series we would have gotten something decent as well.

With that said I don’t think ether were the best for this project as nether are good for trilogies


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2020)

I think the problem was trying to hit a home run out of the gate when, truth be told, they could have given certain characters their own film before pivoting it into The Force Awakens.

Have Rey discover that she is a force sensitive in her film.

Have Finn leave the First Order in his.

Have a light hearted film on Poe doing whatever the fuck he does.

When you go into TFA, interest would be in those characters. Introduction to the old cast would be a bonus.

Mid part, I would have the films focus on Kylo and Rey, with a light hearted film centred on Finn and Poe.

I'd scrap the second film and do something else.

Didn't have a problem with the third film.

Feel as though they tried to do too much with too little and I agree with Turrin. If they wanted it to work as a trilogy, they should have had one director or the second director should have put their ego in check. Ultimately, you can't have someone come in at the midway point and decide they want the trilogy to be about their story.


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## Velocity (Jul 14, 2020)

It was probably too early for another mainline trilogy anyway. There was a sixteen year gap between Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace. 

If they had waited until 2021 to release Episode VII and instead made more content like Rogue One, Solo, The Clone Wars and Rebels to flesh out the galaxy with unique perspectives to make money off the property, maybe the sequel trilogy would've had more time to get it right.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jul 14, 2020)

The problem with the sequels was Rian Johnson had no idea what he was doing in TLJ

Ended all the plotlines without anything for the third film to work with. Killed snook, took a shit on rey's backstory, and killed off Luke. No setup for anything.

Luke went from seeing the good in Vader to standing over Ben Solo's bed holding a lightsaber at 3am in the dark. Then he has to tell rey "fuk that guy hes a monster" for no reason. What the hell was this character?

But the ending was where the film shined the most with muh children and the promising hopeful future... wtf


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Jul 15, 2020)

I don't like a lot of the things The Last Jedi did but I don't think its to blame for the sequels being terrible. It definitely caused its fair share of problems. Eliminating Snoke left a hole that the rest of the First Order couldn't fill for instance and everything about Luke was just terrible. 

But its nothing the trilogy couldn't have recovered from. In fact I think trying to undo the movie did a lot more damage. I understand fully why Kylo couldn't be seen as a credible threat by the audience and that this is why Palps was made to return but I think the decision was wrong. Kylo being the supreme leader, showing character development and learning how to be a villain would be more interesting. His philosophy of killing the past could have been very interesting too and set him apart from the other Sith's. The galaxy seems trapped in a cycle of dark and light side force users going to war with each other so its not like his stance couldn't be justified with some effort. If Kylo was allowed to be a villain then he might have been somewhat like Darth Kreia. 

I think the rot started from the very first movie. The return of rebels vs stormtroopers despite it being nonsensical that the heroes are rebels again, the absent world building, and Luke and co being defeated by joke villains was enough to ensure the new movies would never be good. I find what Johnson didn't do to be far more damning than what he did do. Rian Johnson too seemed to have very little interest in telling us what the First Order even was or explain how a bunch of joke villains could take over the galaxy. If anything he doubled down on the First Order being pathetic by making Snoke just as silly as Kylo and Hux. 

I think Johnson made the more obvious mistakes and that those did a lot of harm but I kinda blame Abrams more for the new trilogy. It was his first movie that set the trilogy on an incredibly shaky foundation and it was his third movie that failed to properly handle the fallout of the second. Or rather I think Bob Iger is to blame. Supposedly he was the one who mandated that the first movie stick as closely to the original trilogy as possible and return to the rebels vs stormtrooper days despite this being nonsensical.


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## Garcher (Jul 18, 2020)

The sequels have already been a failure when they decided on the setting.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gunners (Jul 18, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> The problem with the sequels was Rian Johnson had no idea what he was doing in TLJ



Nah, the problem is ego.

You don't need to know what you're doing with Star Wars. It is a simple matter of good triumphing over evil, charismatic characters with good chemistry, sprinkle in a little romance and cool action sequences.

The problem is Rian viewed it as an opportunity to further his brand and put that ahead of the quality. 

You ended up with characters who did not fit and characters who lost their sense of direction to accommodate the new recruits.

That being said, I didn’t have a problem with why Luke was in isolation. Doing the right thing is a constant struggle. It isn't a matter of overcoming an obstacle (not letting his rage push him into killing Vader) and being on easy street for the rest of your life.

What I had an issue with was his redemption. I feel as though he should have spent more time with Leia.


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## reiatsuflow (Jul 18, 2020)

If last jedi was just luke and rey and kylo expanded it could have been great. Those scenes with those characters were good. They needed more of that and less of everything else.

It's still amazing that finn, an escaped child solider, finds child slaves on some planet and doesn't bat an eyelash and then just rescues the cute animals. How you don't connect those dots, I don't even know.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 18, 2020)

reiatsuflow said:


> If last jedi was just luke and rey and kylo expanded it could have been great. *Those scenes with those characters were good.* They needed more of that and less of everything else.
> 
> It's still amazing that finn, an escaped child solider, finds child slaves on some planet and doesn't bat an eyelash and then just rescues the cute animals. How you don't connect those dots, I don't even know.


Nah they were on par with the worst.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Velocity (Jul 22, 2020)

Newest dumb rumour is that Disney wants George Lucas back in charge of Lucasfilm and his main condition is that he gets to make the next trilogy, which may or may not completely ignore the last one.


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## Natalija (Jul 22, 2020)

Clay said:


> Newest dumb rumour is that Disney wants George Lucas back in charge of Lucasfilm and his main condition is that he gets to make the next trilogy, which may or may not completely ignore the last one.


That can't be true, they would never give him any freedom whatsoever.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 22, 2020)

Didn't read whatever you guys are talking about. Its probably the same discussion from years ago.

Anyway here something more to rage over for another few years:


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## MartialHorror (Jul 22, 2020)

I just watched this movie again and... my opinions are still the same.

It works fine in individual scenes... at least maybe until the climax... but it definitely underwhelms as a whole.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 22, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I just watched this movie again and... my opinions are still the same.
> 
> It works fine in individual scenes... at least maybe until the climax... but it definitely underwhelms as a whole.



Yeah.
Saw it with a friend who didn't see it a few days ago.
A lot of things happen, but it leaves you empty due to a lack of flow.

It's like watching a bunch of cutscenes from a game with how they teleport all over the galaxy until the final boss battle.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 22, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Yeah.
> Saw it with a friend who didn't see it a few days ago.
> A lot of things happen, but it leaves you empty due to a lack of flow.
> 
> It's like watching a bunch of cutscenes from a game with how they teleport all over the galaxy until the final boss battle.



Like with me, when Finn meets that former Storm Trooper and bonds with her, I liked the idea of it and her chemistry with Finn is OK... but the character just comes out of nowhere, suddenly is treated as one of the main people, yet doesn't have enough screen-time to really stand out. Same with Poe's quasi love interest. 

Sometimes I worry that with the streaming services becoming so popular that movies are going to introduce side characters like that just so they can consider doing a spin-off show based around them, but "Rise of Skywalker" had such a chaotic production that I'd be surprised if they thought that far ahead. 

Do you know who I really liked though? General Pryde. The actor had the kind of presence that fit perfectly with Star Wars and I can't help but lament that he hadn't been around since TFA. I actually think he would've been better to keep around than Hux, as he would've made an interesting contrast to Kylo Ren. That is the strange thing about these sequels. They push Kylo Ren, Snoke, Phasma, Hux, etc, when it's the minor villains who seem a lot more compelling. Like that one Stormtrooper who fights Finn in TFA or that Commander who dies in the beginning of TLA.


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## Natalija (Jul 22, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Do you know who I really liked though? General Pryde.


He's without a doubt the best thing in this dreaded movie.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 22, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Like with me, when Finn meets that former Storm Trooper and bonds with her, I liked the idea of it and her chemistry with Finn is OK... but the character just comes out of nowhere, suddenly is treated as one of the main people, yet doesn't have enough screen-time to really stand out. Same with Poe's quasi love interest.
> 
> Sometimes I worry that with the streaming services becoming so popular that movies are going to introduce side characters like that just so they can consider doing a spin-off show based around them, but "Rise of Skywalker" had such a chaotic production that I'd be surprised if they thought that far ahead.
> 
> Do you know who I really liked though? General Pryde. The actor had the kind of presence that fit perfectly with Star Wars and I can't help but lament that he hadn't been around since TFA. I actually think he would've been better to keep around than Hux, as he would've made an interesting contrast to Kylo Ren. That is the strange thing about these sequels. They push Kylo Ren, Snoke, Phasma, Hux, etc, when it's the minor villains who seem a lot more compelling. Like that one Stormtrooper who fights Finn in TFA or that Commander who dies in the beginning of TLA.



Yeah, Pryde is great.
Funny you mention Hux, since Pryde was most likely created due to TLJ making Hux into a joke.
So they needed someone to be threatening.

Also what I missed on my first watch was the absurdity of the 16 hour deadline.
Which makes all the hopping around the galaxy even worse and frankly impossible.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Jul 22, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Yeah, Pryde is great.
> Funny you mention Hux, since Pryde was most likely created due to TLJ making Hux into a joke.
> So they needed someone to be threatening.
> 
> ...



Yeah I didn't think about the 16 hour deadline... Don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing...

Hux was not a very well done character from his conception. In fact, he was probably at his most interesting in RoS just because he contrasts with the more serious villains.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MartialHorror (Jul 22, 2020)

OK, I'm about to piss off some people, but even though the decline of Star Wars has its roots in many problems, I also think it's reliance on the TV shows hurt it too. When I saw RoS in theaters, I heard all of the voices speaking to Rey at the end, but could only make out a few. On Disney+, the subtitles revealed a bunch of names I did not recognize. It's supposed to be an awesome moment, but once again, I'm like "Huh?" and I grew up with these movies religiously as a kid and watch them quite consistently.

It reminds me of "Solo", when my entire theater was like ... "wut?" when Darth Maul appeared. Part of the appeal about "Star Wars" was that it was easy for anyone to get into. It's kind of why "The Force Awakens" sold itself both as a sequel AND a reboot. But it's as if the franchise became too entrenched in its lore and reliance on knowledge of the past, turning a lot of casuals off.

... While other things pissed off the hardcore fanboys...


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 23, 2020)

The best example of the failure is the sequels reliance on the books for explaining shit that should be in the movie.
Hell, Palpatines return was limited to the opening blurb because they did the main event in some fukin game.

WTF!


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## MartialHorror (Jul 23, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> The best example of the failure is the sequels reliance on the books for explaining shit that should be in the movie.
> Hell, Palpatines return was limited to the opening blurb because they did the main event in some fukin game.
> 
> WTF!



I feel like Palpatine's return could've been solved if they just included audio of him laughing diabolically after the end credits of TLJ. They wouldn't even need to have the actor record anything, just use stock footage and the message would be clear -- he's coming back.

Of course, who knows when they made the decision to revive him. It's likely that they hadn't done so when TLJ was released.


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## Garcher (Jul 23, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Palpatine's return could've been solved


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 23, 2020)

Yeah there is nothing to make sense of Palp's return that would lessen the damage of him coming back alive and making all of Vader's and Luke's actions in the OT worthless since both died before he truly did just so MaRey Sue could steal thier thunder.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 23, 2020)

OK, maybe "solved" is a strong word, but it would probably limit the accusations that his return was damage control... and maybe get some buzz leading into "Solo".


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 23, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> OK, maybe "solved" is a strong word, but it would probably limit the accusations that his return was damage control... and maybe get some buzz leading into "Solo".



It wouldn't solve it, but the foreshadow would at least make it less of a wtf moment.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 23, 2020)

I was reading this and it brought some good points about the brand. I liked some of the shade he thew at both the prequels and the sequels ("prequel me once, shame on you. Sequel me twice, shame on me" made me laugh). But it is easy to take for granted how part of the reason Star Wars blew up like it did in the first place was the time period which it came from. Audiences were eager for escapism in the 1970's/1980's after Vietnam, Watergate, etc. 

I don't really know if escapism still exists today. These days, if a movie isn't somewhat about the current political landscape, it's dismissed as shallow and falls through the cracks financially. There might be a comeback following covid19 though.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jul 23, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> *I don't really know if escapism still exists today. *These days, if a movie isn't somewhat about the current political landscape, it's dismissed as shallow and falls through the cracks financially. There might be a comeback following covid19 though.



It definitely does

If not for comic book films taking over mainstream films this decade than definitely for what has happened this year alone and what future films will be like


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## MartialHorror (Jul 23, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> It definitely does
> 
> If not for comic book films taking over mainstream films this decade than definitely for what has happened this year alone and what future films will be like



But is that escapism? The MCU is, if anything, more political than Star Wars. In fact, other than "The Last Jedi", I'd argue that Kennedy's interviews have made Star Wars seem more political than it really is.

Even the marketing campaigns are often political, like when Josh Brolin read Trump tweets using Thanos's voice on... some night show... 

"Iron Man", "Black Panther" and "Winter Soldier" were overtly political. "Captain Marvel" and "Ant Man and the Wasp" at least pushed itself as political (feminism). But I'd say most of these movies weave them all in somehow. 

Is it weird though comparing and contrasting Star Wars to the MCU, as even perceived failure "Rise of Skywalker" technically grossed more than most Marvel movies... even though the MCU is perceived to be kicking Star Wars's ass right now. Maybe it's just merchandising and fan reception.


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## Suigetsu (Jul 23, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Yeah there is nothing to make sense of Palp's return that would lessen the damage of him coming back alive and making all of Vader's and Luke's actions in the OT worthless since both died before he truly did just so MaRey Sue could steal thier thunder.


cringe horror its still trying to justify it? oh boy...


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## MartialHorror (Jul 23, 2020)

Suigetsu said:


> cringe horror its still trying to justify it? oh boy...



If you want to start something, you might as well go grab Watchdog to do it for you again.


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## reiatsuflow (Jul 23, 2020)

His name was general pryde?


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## Velocity (Jul 24, 2020)

Palpatine's return would've worked if they had used it from the start and actually allowed Ben to act like someone in his 30s.

If they had said in The Force Awakens that there were rumours the First Order was being led from the shadows by none other than Palpatine himself, you instantly have a goal for the protagonists - to find out if Palpatine really is somehow alive. Is it just First Order propaganda to legitimise their manifesto or is he really alive?

It would even tie into Ben saying he wants to finish what his grandfather started, since you'd have no idea if he meant "destroying the Jedi" or "killing Palpatine". All you'd know for sure is he somehow got himself into the First Order and he has been rapidly rising through their ranks by killing and replacing his superior officers.

Then have Palpatine reveal himself to the galaxy at the end of The Last Jedi and have Ben approach Rey, telling her that only if they work together can they destroy Palpatine once and for all.

Of course the ambiguity would be that he might just wants Palpatine out of the way since he threatens Ben's control over the First Order. Or, indeed, he may want to kill Palpatine for more personal reasons. It'd be hard to tell.

I think an ambiguous and manipulative Ben would've been far more interesting than who we got. There's also the possibility of Palpatine somehow surviving the destruction of the second Death Star being used as propaganda by the First Order, only then to reveal that the Sith Eternal (an ancient cult that has existed for a thousand years, watching over and cultivating new Sith Lords so that their line never dies out) used some crazy ritual involving Rey to do it before dumping her on Jakku to die.

Then Rey's Force powers come from her connection to Palpatine's resurrection, not because she's his granddaughter, and thus she is the key to destroying him as she tethers him to the living world.

Bonus points if you really spend the trilogy hammering home just how much being able to use the Force means to Rey because she feels as though the Force has chosen her for a great purpose, only for her to have to willingly sacrifice her connection to the Force to destroy Palpatine.


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## MShadows (Jul 24, 2020)

Abrams brought Palpatine back because Rian Johnson took a massive dump on Snoke by killing him and ruining the initial plans.

That, and the fact that they probably assumed a Palpatine return would draw in the masses so the movie wouldn’t underperform.

That’s all there is to it.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 24, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Abrams brought Palpatine back because Rian Johnson took a massive dump on Snoke by killing him and ruining the initial plans.
> 
> That, and the fact that they probably assumed a Palpatine return would draw in the masses so the movie wouldn’t underperform.
> 
> That’s all there is to it.



yeah, to be fair though, Snoke's death was in a lot of ways the only thing that made him interesting. I don't think him surviving would've helped "Rise of Skywalker" that much, financially or critically. If anything, I think Rian Johnson's mistake in that area was making Kylo Ren be so thoroughly humiliated. He should've defeated Rey and maybe... as infuriating as it would be... just straight up kill Luke -- or at least they should've downplayed Luke's punking of him. If Kylo Ren was a credible lead villain threat, Palpatine wouldn't be needed AND we'd have something a little different.

But obviously 'woulda, coulda, shoulda' is easy to play. 

I'm also not entirely sure where were initial plans to ruin. I remember hearing that Treverrow wanted to focus on fleshing out Snoke, but didn't that "Duel of the Fates" script continue where "The Last Jedi" left off? If that script was legit, then whatever plans there were would've been scrapped afterwards.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Jul 25, 2020)




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## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Abrams brought Palpatine back because Rian Johnson took a massive dump on Snoke by killing him and ruining the initial plans.
> 
> That, and the fact that they probably assumed a Palpatine return would draw in the masses so the movie wouldn’t underperform.
> 
> That’s all there is to it.


Nah you're wrong.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Nah you're wrong.


Mider pls there is zero evidence Palp's return was anything but pulled out of the ass. Quite pretending otherwise because the excuses have gotten old.


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## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Mider pls there is zero evidence Palp's return was anything but pulled out of the ass. Quite pretending otherwise because the excuses have gotten old.


Literally show me the evidence.  I've seen no source for these claims.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Literally show me the evidence.  I've seen no source for these claims.


The fact there is zero indication he was ever going to show up prior you dense moron. Name a single bit of evidence that he was? Yours is the side that needs to prove otherwise.


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## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> The fact there is zero indication he was ever going to show up prior you dense moron. Name a single bit of evidence that he was? Yours is the side that needs to prove otherwise.


You can't give me proof?  Concession accepted (again).  

Really owning you in this thread.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> You can't give me proof?  Concession accepted (again).
> 
> Really owning you in this thread.


>he says while giving zero proof himself

You're the only one owning yourself nitwit. Palp's return has zero foreshadowing. Period.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 25, 2020)

TECHNICALLY, 

if the "Duel of the Fates" script is real... which I believe the writer sort of confirmed it was... Palpatine was going to return, albeit only as some sort of hologram/recording that was sent to Vader either during or before the events of "Return of the Jedi".  

So he was always likely to come back... just not as the antagonist... or alive...


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Which means once again they pulled it out of their ass since a hologram of a long dead character is no where near the same as a now alive character playing a major role as the final villain.


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## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> >he says while giving zero proof himself
> 
> You're the only one owning yourself nitwit. Palp's return has zero foreshadowing. Period.


You should probably learn how Burden of Proof works before embarrassing yourself even further.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> You should probably learn how Burden of Proof works before embarrassing yourself even further.


>still no evidence Palp's return was ever anything but an asspull
>the only script made beforehand only had Palp's as a Hologram, not a still living character

All you are doing is embarrassing yourself. Imagine being this much of a Nu-Wars apologist that you cannot even accept your clearly poorly planned out trilogy was anything but even a year after it ended.


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## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> >still no evidence Palp's return was ever anything but an asspull
> >the only script made beforehand only had Palp's as a Hologram, not a still living character
> 
> All you are doing is embarrassing yourself. Imagine being this much of a Nu-Wars apologist that you cannot even accept your clearly poorly planned out trilogy was anything but even a year after it ended.


I'm not the one making the claim.  If there is no evidence for it and you're claiming then show proof.  Otherwise your opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


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## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

Your old spam doesn't make you look any better either.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> I'm not the one making the claim.  If there is no evidence for it and you're claiming then show proof.  Otherwise your opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


Uh yeah you are nimrod because you are trying to deny Palp's return was anything but pulled out of nowhere. And maybe actually pay fucking attention because even others in this thread have mentioned that Palp's was never even alive in the previous scripts for Ep 9 so now you are you the one who needs to back up his claim that it was anything but an asspull. So far you have provided jack and shit that it was ever foreshadowed which is only making your side look like it has no idea what it is talking about.


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## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> mentioned that Palp's was never even alive in the previous scripts for Ep 9


Source?


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Your old spam doesn't make you look any better either.


Your stone walling does not look any better. But thanks for letting me know how much rating you makes you butthurt.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Source?


Martial literally mentioned this in the very same fucking page you absolute imbecile.


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## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Martial literally mentioned this in the very same fucking page you absolute imbecile.


You aren't very smart so you should probably stop insulting too, re-read his post.  What about that says "Source" to you?  

Can't fix stupid


----------



## Gunners (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> You aren't very smart so you should probably stop insulting too, re-read his post.  What about that says "Source" to you?
> 
> Can't fix stupid



He's someone I don't understand. Reminds me of Bender.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> You aren't very smart so you should probably stop insulting too, re-read his post.  What about that says "Source" to you?


That even the previous scripts for this film never had Palp's be alive as the main villain which only furthers the argument him being alive was pulled out of their ass. What's your counter point sherlock?


Mider T said:


> Can't fix stupid


You being a prime example of that.

Oh and shut the fuck up Gunners, no one needs your fake lawyer ass around here.


----------



## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> That even the previous scripts for this film never had Palp's be alive as the main villain which only furthers the argument him being alive was pulled out of their ass. What's your counter point sherlock?


Why can't you support your arguments by providing a source?  Literally takes a min, that min that you like to use spamming old ratings.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> That even the previous scripts for this film never had Palp's be alive as the main villain which only furthers the argument him being alive was pulled out of their ass. What's your counter point sherlock?
> 
> You being a prime example of that.
> 
> Oh and shut the fuck up Gunners, no one needs your fake lawyer ass around here.


You seem mad.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Why can't you support your arguments by providing a source?  Literally takes a min, that min that you like to use spamming old ratings.


"muh soruce" It's hilarious how you yourself have not done the same yet act like only you have the right to say as such. I told you there was never any indication Palp's was going to return and you provide jack and shit to say otherwise only harping on about "muh sources' when watching the films themselves tells us there was never a sign Palp's would be the main villain. You don't get to have your cake and eat it Einstein, name a single amount of evidence Palp's return was foreshadowed anywhere in this trilogy.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Gunners said:


> You seem mad.


"u mad" As much as I expected you to muster as a retort.


----------



## MartialHorror (Jul 25, 2020)

I did find this -- 

Apparently there was concept art involving Palpatine in October/November 2017, before "The Last Jedi" was even released, which I guess refutes the allegations that Palpatine's return was damage control, in response to the backlash. However, Abrams signed on September of 2017, the same month after Trevorrow left the production.

Trevorrow said "“Bringing back the Emperor was an idea JJ brought to the table when he came on board. It’s honestly something I never considered. I commend him for it. This was a tough story to unlock, and he found the key.”

This seems to suggest that Palpatine being resurrected was conceived September, 2017, which fits the concept art release dates... which is very last minute (ie pulled out of ass). 

I guess it's possible they considered bringing him back in TFA, but if that was the case, those plans were thrown out by Rian Johnson. I doubt that's what happened though, as Trevorrow was signed on around the same time as Rian Johnson... right? His comments suggest Palpatine's resurrection wasn't considered.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "u mad" As much as I expected you to muster as a retort.



I mean you told me to fuck off and brought up my career. Seemed as though you got in your feelings .


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I did find this --
> 
> Apparently there was concept art involving Palpatine in October/November 2017, before "The Last Jedi" was even released, which I guess refutes the allegations that Palpatine's return was damage control, in response to the backlash. However, Abrams signed on September of 2017, the same month after Trevorrow left the production.
> 
> ...


Except when did TLJ end filming? Because It only released 3 months after which means production was already done by than and the film's story was already done.


----------



## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "muh soruce" It's hilarious how you yourself have not done the same yet act like only you have the right to say as such. I told you there was never any indication Palp's was going to return and you provide jack and shit to say otherwise only harping on about "muh sources' when watching the films themselves tells us there was never a sign Palp's would be the main villain. You don't get to have your cake and eat it Einstein, name a single amount of evidence Palp's return was foreshadowed anywhere in this trilogy.


You saying "BUT I/HE SAID" is not a source.  You providing links to the documents or video of the creator/screenwriter/whatever is proof.  This is like debating 101.  I didn't make a claim, I asked for evidence that went against what we know.  The burden of proof doesn't falls on me.  At least learn how to debate before anything else.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Gunners said:


> I mean you told me to fuck off and brought up my career. Seemed as though you got in your feelings .


You came doing nothing but essentially cheerleading your pal Mider here to do nothing else but add snark so I told you off as as the irrelevant speck you are.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> You came doing nothing but essentially cheerleading your pal Mider here to do nothing else but add snark so I told you off as as the irrelevant speck you are.



Relax, I'm not going to report you to the mods. There is no need to sugar coat your... emotional outburst .


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> You saying "BUT I/HE SAID" is not a source.  You providing links to the documents or video of the creator/screenwriter/whatever is proof.


In which the only kind posted here goes along with the argument I am pushing dumbass. 


Mider T said:


> This is like debating 101.  I didn't make a claim


Bitch please you did.


Mider T said:


> Nah you're wrong.


"asking for evidence" my ass. You simply said MShadows was wrong and did nothing else to say otherwise.


Mider T said:


> I asked for evidence that went against what we know.


Posting history makes you a liar.


Mider T said:


> The burden of proof doesn't falls on me.  At least learn how to debate before anything else.


Except it does as you simply stated the ass pull was wrong and nothing else so you actually do need to provide evidence. Clumsy as hell way to worm yourself out of that part of the debate.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Gunners said:


> Relax, I'm not going to report you to the mods.


>he thinks I give a shit

I mean you make it well and clear you need the mods to cover your backwhich your post says as much by even implying it so no bother for me but it's pretty pathetic if you need to make it so obvious breh.


----------



## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> In which the only kind posted here goes along with the argument I am pushing dumbass.
> 
> Bitch please you did.
> 
> ...


Tell me how "Nah you're wrong" in response to a theory is a claim?  The claim was what I was responding to.  Your comprehension is almost as bad as your debating skills...almost.


----------



## MartialHorror (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Except when did TLJ end filming? Because It only released 3 months after which means production was already done by than and the film's story was already done.



Yes, the films story was already done. Most of the filming had been completed in 2016. 

Apparently Abrams, Johnson and Trevorrow did plan out the trilogy together to some extent, with Palpatine only making his hologram cameo in Episode 9. I actually haven't read the entire script, but either Carrie Fischer's death meant it was impossible to use and/or Trevorrow's "Book of Henry" failing so badly caused either Iger or Kennedy to lose faith in him and his script was mostly thrown out. Abrams was then asked to come back and he decided to bring back Palpatine.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Tell me how "Nah you're wrong" in response to a theory is a claim?


By claiming he is wrong? There was never any indication Palp's was alive so all it comes off as an ass pull to which you have brought zero evidence to the prove otherwise. You have yet to name a single instance in the films doing otherwise.


Mider T said:


> The claim was what I was responding to.  Your comprehension is almost as bad as your debating skills...almost.


>person a makes claim backed up by the films own plot holes
>you say he is wrong with no points to to say otherwise 
>I state Palp's has no indication he is alive
>you just say I'm wrong with no points to back yours up
>"hur durr your reading comprehension is bad"

You mental gymnastics are the most embarrassing part of this clown show of a 'debate" we are having.


----------



## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> By claiming he is wrong? There was never any indication Palp's was alive so all it comes off as an ass pull to which you have brought zero evidence to the prove otherwise. You have yet to name a single instance in the films doing otherwise.
> 
> >person a makes claim backed up by the films own plot holes
> >you say he is wrong with no points to to say otherwise
> ...


Yeah your comprehension (memory? Both?) sucks, you didn't mention me asking for proof.


----------



## MartialHorror (Jul 25, 2020)

For those interested what Trevorrow's script did apparently entail

-- Rey's love interest was apparently Poe. Trevorrow actually asked Rian Johnson to include a scene with them together in TLJ so that subplot wouldn't feel like an ass-pull... I think this would've been a bad idea anyway, but whatever.

-- Rey used a double bladed, blue light saber... which sounds awesome.

-- Kylo Ren would be haunted by Luke's force ghost and would emerge as the real main villain... I don't really know if that would've worked, considering his spanking in TLJ, but whatever.

-- Kylo Ren killed Rey's parents. He also dies, but doesn't really redeem himself, even though his death is treated as tragic and he spends his final moments telling Rey her family name (which is not Palpatine). 

-- I heard somewhere that Hux commits suicide by impaling himself with Kylo Ren's lightsaber.

-- Rey ends the movie blinded. 

-- Apparently Colin Trevorrow did indirectly confirm the scripts authenticity when clearing up a specific point.

As the information is kind of murky, if I am mistaken about any of this, let me know.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Yes, the films story was already done. Most of the filming had been completed in 2016.


Which says the opposite of what you stated. By the time Abrams came along it was clear to him he would go into episode 9 without Snoke and only have Kylo. With zero indication that Palp's was coming back alive as said by Trevorrow himself this only furthers the point Palpatine was shoved into the film with no planing.


MartialHorror said:


> Apparently Abrams, Johnson and Trevorrow did plan out the trilogy together to some extent, with Palpatine only making his hologram cameo in Episode 9. I actually haven't read the entire script, but either Carrie Fischer's death meant it was impossible to use and/or Trevorrow's "Book of Henry" failing so badly caused either Iger or Kennedy to lose faith in him and his script was mostly thrown out. Abrams was then asked to come back and he decided to bring back Palpatine.


It's clear that Palpatine's return was never fully planned and was in fact pulled out of their ass.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Yeah your comprehension (memory? Both?) sucks, you didn't mention me asking for proof.


I told you straight up to show me a moment in the films where Palp's return was implied before episode 9 and you brought jack shit.


----------



## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> -- Rey ends the movie blinded.


How does this happen?


----------



## Big Bob (Jul 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> For those interested what Trevorrow's script did apparently entail
> 
> -- Rey's love interest was apparently Poe. Trevorrow actually asked Rian Johnson to include a scene with them together in TLJ so that subplot wouldn't feel like an ass-pull... I think this would've been a bad idea anyway, but whatever.
> 
> ...



Poe and Rey would be weird.

Double bladed lightsabers are always cool.

That could be interesting. His guilt and Luke constantly making him doubt himself could lead him further down the dark side.

Works well if he is to be the main villain and is more interesting than just a random palpy connection.

Better end for Hux than what we got.

Can see that somehow working out.


----------



## MartialHorror (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Which says the opposite of what you stated. By the time Abrams came along it was clear to him he would go into episode 9 without Snoke and only have Kylo. With zero indication that Palp's was coming back alive as said by Trevorrow himself this only furthers the point Palpatine was shoved into the film with no planing.
> 
> It's clear that Palpatine's return was never fully planned and was in fact pulled out of their ass.



No, that's exactly what I stated. I am 100% agreeing that it was pulled out of their ass. I simply said that Palpatine's return wasn't in response to the backlash. If anything, it was a response to either Carrie Fischer dying or Trevorrow being fired. I only brought that up because most people who accuse them of 'pulling it out of their ass' also seem to think that. They're right, just for the wrong reason.

... Unless Disney and Lucasfilms were anticipating a backlash...




Mider T said:


> How does this happen?



 a duel with Kylo Ren. He actually wins their first duel. During their rematch, she cuts off his hand.


----------



## MartialHorror (Jul 25, 2020)

I did make a few mistakes, apparently.

-- Hux doesn't kill himself with Kylo Ren's lightsaber. His character arc surrounds him being envious of the jedi and wanting to be able to use the force, even though he obviously can't. He apparently has a collection of light saber's and when it's obvious the final battle is lost, he draws a purple one (Mace Windu's) and kills himself with that.

-- Kylo Ren does redeem himself and parts of this do appear in "Rise of Skywalker". In the movie, Leia uses the force to reach out to him, prompting him to turn good and join Rey for the final battle, eventually sacrificing his lifeforce for her. In "Duel of the Fates", this... sort of happens... except it's during the climax. After Rey cuts off his hand, Kylo Ren somehow starts draining her sort of like Palpatine did in the movie. Except then Leia uses the force to reach out to him, prompting him  to have a change of heart and reverse the process... which is ultimately what kills him.

A few other notes from the original script

-- Leia does not die. 

-- R2D2 seemingly dies, but is repaired at the end, leading to the next point. 

-- The final moments of the script apparently have R2D2's memory banks projecting various moments from all three trilogies, except from his POV. This would've been an amazing way of ending it. 

-- Luke has a bigger role even though he's dead... I'm not sure why they reduced his presence so much in the final film... As a force ghost, he telecasts a rallying speech to the entire resistance. 

-- I think I said this before, but Kylo Ren actually killed Rey's parents (who were still 'nobodies'), which is how he knew about them. 

-- Both Yoda and Obi Wan appear as force ghosts. While it would be some nice fanservice, I kind of wonder if it's necessary, as neither Rey or Ren have any connection to them. 

-- The Knights of Ren don't seem all that important, but this time they fight and are defeated by Rey, not Kylo Ren. 

-- This also would've had Han appearing to Ren, albeit not as part of his redemption.

-- Ren would go through some 'dark side' training, even facing a vision of Darth Vader.

-- The Palpatine cameo would've been a hologram, where he left a message to Vader about what he should do if Luke kills him. Kylo Ren discovers it and goes to the place where he gets trained. Oddly, the hologram can tell it's not Vader and electrocutes his face. Kylo Ren is so disfigured that he has mandalorian armor smelted onto his face (WTF).

If you want to know more, here's a link: 

Interestingly, the person breaking it down prefers "Rise of Skywalker", but their write-up is easy to keep up.


----------



## Big Bob (Jul 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I did make a few mistakes, apparently.
> 
> -- Hux doesn't kill himself with Kylo Ren's lightsaber. His character arc surrounds him being envious of the jedi and wanting to be able to use the force, even though he obviously can't. He apparently has a collection of light saber's and when it's obvious the final battle is lost, he draws a purple one (Mace Windu's) and kills himself with that.
> 
> ...



This sounds like a far more interesting movie.


----------



## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> If you want to know more, here's a link:


See?  This is what I expect when I ask for proof @NostalgiaFan 


MartialHorror said:


> he draws a purple one (Mace Windu's) and kills himself with that.



Wonder how he got that?


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> See?  This is what I expect when I ask for proof @NostalgiaFan


You say as if the films themselves gave no foreshadowing which was the fucking point you idiot.


----------



## Big Bob (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Wonder how he got that?



Since he seems to be a big fan of Jedi, he probably scavenged it himself or bought it from someone else who did.


----------



## Mider T (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> You say as if the films themselves gave no foreshadowing which was the fucking point you idiot.


No.  The point was you learning basic debating skills and comprehending what I ask for.  Now back under the desk with you.


----------



## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jul 25, 2020)

if Rey trained in the dark side but still came out good that would have been a nice contrast to Anakin

i dont see how kylo ren would have been better off in the alternate script


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 25, 2020)

Mider T said:


> No.  The point was I have zero fucking evidence Palpatine's return had any foreshadowing so I needed to stonewall to make up for the fact I had no argument.


FFYI


Mider T said:


> Now back under the desk with you.


More like crawl back in the hole you belong in, Troglodyte.


----------



## Big Bob (Jul 25, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> if Rey trained in the dark side but still came out good that would have been a nice contrast to Anakin
> 
> i dont see how kylo ren would have been better off in the alternate script



Maybe or people would just see it as another copy of the og films.

I think it would've been better if he stayed evil until the end instead of redeeming himself. With Palpy out of the way there needs to be a big villain.


----------



## MartialHorror (Jul 25, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> if Rey trained in the dark side but still came out good that would have been a nice contrast to Anakin
> 
> i dont see how kylo ren would have been better off in the alternate script



When Kylo Ren fights against the vision of Darth Vader, I actually think it would be better if he had won. Sure, fans would be pissed, but they aren't supposed to really like Kylo Ren. 

But he technically defeats Rey in the end, only dying because he changes his mind. That alone arguably takes the wind out of the complaints that Rey is a Mary Sue and that Kylo Ren is a wimp.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 25, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Which means once again they pulled it out of their ass since a hologram of a long dead character is no where near the same as a now alive character playing a major role as the final villain.



This was in fact expressly stated.


----------



## Velocity (Jul 26, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> if Rey trained in the dark side but still came out good that would have been a nice contrast to Anakin
> 
> i dont see how kylo ren would have been better off in the alternate script



What I really would've liked to see is for Luke to become an antagonist. Like Ben asks Rey to join him and she does so because, like him, she believes that the only way to build something new is to destroy what already exists.

This would, of course, require that they destroy both the Jedi and the Sith, finishing what Anakin started, and put Rey and Ben firmly against both Jedi Order and the Sith Eternal.

Then, once the dust settles, Rey and Ben would have to fight because Rey wants to create something where there is no light or dark but only the Force whereas Ben wants to extinguish the Force itself because of all the suffering it caused his family.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 26, 2020)

Clay said:


> What I really would've liked to see is for Luke to become an antagonist. Like Ben asks Rey to join him and she does so because, like him, she believes that the only way to build something new is to destroy what already exists.
> 
> This would, of course, require that they destroy both the Jedi and the Sith, finishing what Anakin started, and put Rey and Ben firmly against both Jedi Order and the Sith Eternal.
> 
> Then, once the dust settles, Rey and Ben would have to fight because Rey wants to create something where there is no light or dark but only the Force whereas Ben wants to extinguish the Force itself because of all the suffering it caused his family.



No.


----------



## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Jul 26, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> No.



Anything is better than Luke standing over someone’s bed at 3am in the night holding a lightsaber then saying years later that guy was a monster for no reason


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 26, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> Anything is better than Luke standing over someone’s bed at 3am in the night holding a lightsaber then saying years later that guy was a monster for no reason



He wants Luke to be the antagonist.
So they would need to make him even worse to have the audience root for Rey.


----------



## MartialHorror (Jul 26, 2020)

Yeah that is a strange desire to have, considering the backlash to the darker portrayal of Luke in TLJ.


----------



## Velocity (Jul 27, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> He wants Luke to be the antagonist.
> So they would need to make him even worse to have the audience root for Rey.



No, you misunderstand. I said antagonist, not villain. Luke would still be Luke, but he would obviously oppose the destruction of the Jedi - so he would have no choice but to stop them, despite knowing that they’re not totally wrong and the Jedi Order does need a lot of work before it avoids the same mistakes it did before.

Luke and even Snoke would believe you learn from the past to make better decisions.
Rey and Ben would believe you destroy the past to create something new in its place.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 27, 2020)

Clay said:


> No, you misunderstand. I said antagonist, not villain. Luke would still be Luke, but he would obviously oppose the destruction of the Jedi - so he would have no choice but to stop them, despite knowing that they’re not totally wrong and the Jedi Order does need a lot of work before it avoids the same mistakes it did before.
> 
> Luke and even Snoke would believe you learn from the past to make better decisions.
> Rey and Ben would believe you destroy the past to create something new in its place.



But as long as she has to go against Luke, a beloved character and former protagonist, they need to make him somehow wrong.
Otherwise Ray won't be the hero of her story.


----------



## Velocity (Jul 27, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> But as long as she has to go against Luke, a beloved character and former protagonist, they need to make him somehow wrong.
> Otherwise Ray won't be the hero of her story.



The best stories are the ones where the protagonists and the antagonists both have legitimate goals. It's more fun when you can't neatly categorise one as right and the other as wrong.


----------



## MartialHorror (Jul 27, 2020)

I think the problem with that idea is that the fandom already feels like Disney is trying too hard to push aside the original cast in favor of the new one, which admittedly is what always is going to happen when a franchise is revived like this... But I don't think that anyone wants to root against Luke.

They'd more than likely view Rey as the antagonist simply by default.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 27, 2020)

Clay said:


> The best stories are the ones where the protagonists and the antagonists both have legitimate goals. It's more fun when you can't neatly categorise one as right and the other as wrong.


Yeah no that logic only works for certain stories but has no place in a fictional series like SW. Unless it involves primarily bounty hunters and Sith, making Luke the antagonist just so you can have your "grey" story line is just being needlessly subversive and turning a series and it's characters into something they are not.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 27, 2020)

Clay said:


> The best stories are the ones where the protagonists and the antagonists both have legitimate goals. It's more fun when you can't neatly categorise one as right and the other as wrong.



Looks at the world literature classics.
Nope.
The best stories are those with well executed concepts, regardless of complexity.

Also these hacks couldn't even execute a straight forward plot and you expect them to go for ambiguity?
Making Luke an antagonist could mean making Ray have a competing drive. But that requires careful story plotting.
But the Worf effect trope of making the established character suffer for the sake of giving the new guy instant credibility is far easier.

Guess which is more likely for these writers?




NostalgiaFan said:


> Yeah no that logic only works for certain stories but has no place in a fictional series like SW. Unless it involves primarily bounty hunters and Sith, making Luke the antagonist just so you can have your "grey" story line is just being needlessly subversive and turning a series and it's characters into something they are not.



Yup.
The original trilogy is essentially a basic fairy tale.
With the peasant hero rising against a dark lord to save the world(galaxy in this case).

It's not a good foundation for ambiguity when the central pillars are a literal fight between pure good and evil.


----------



## Velocity (Jul 27, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Yeah no that logic only works for certain stories but has no place in a fictional series like SW. Unless it involves primarily bounty hunters and Sith, making Luke the antagonist just so you can have your "grey" story line is just being needlessly subversive and turning a series and it's characters into something they are not.



Luke sticking to his guns and refusing to let the Jedi Order fall is being needlessly subversive and turning him into something he's not? 

I mean, what we got was a Luke who gave up on the galaxy, his sister, his nephew, everything and everyone he fought for and beside against the Empire so that he could instead sulk on an island because, for some insane reason, he decided to try to kill his sleeping nephew in the middle of the night. Then, of course, he kills himself in an entirely ineffectual symbolic gesture that achieves nothing because Lando is the one who rallies the galaxy together against the First Order, not Luke.

I think Luke being the symbol of the Jedi Order that Ben and Rey feel as though they need to destroy before they can build something new is a little better than that. Especially if it means Ben and Luke get to fight for real and Ben actually wins, legitimising him as a threat and providing a catalyst for his own fall to the dark side for real as the adrenaline rush and pain of killing his own family pushes him over the edge.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Jul 27, 2020)

Clay said:


> Luke sticking to his guns and refusing to let the Jedi Order fall is being needlessly subversive and turning him into something he's not?


Compared to your "All the Jedi and Sith should die because muh force bad" nonsense he sounds the far more reasonable side, but according to you that sounds all fine and dandy which is stupid as hell when you think about it because almost every thing to do with saving the galaxy has been because of the Jedi, not in spite of them. That's part of why your "all sides have good reasons" sounds more like subversive hogwash than actual good storytelling. Rey and Kylo in your script would be the obvious villains to anyone with a brain but we are suppose to believe they are right in their own way? bullshit. It's like you forget just as much that had to do with all the wars n shit in the galaxy was from non force users if not more so. Getting rid of the Jedi does not fix anything.


Clay said:


> I mean, what we got was a Luke who gave up on the galaxy, his sister, his nephew, everything and everyone he fought for and beside against the Empire so that he could instead sulk on an island because, for some insane reason, he decided to try to kill his sleeping nephew in the middle of the night. Then, of course, he kills himself in an entirely ineffectual symbolic gesture that achieves nothing because Lando is the one who rallies the galaxy together against the First Order, not Luke.


And that was absolute garbage. Your point?


Clay said:


> I think Luke being the symbol of the Jedi Order that Ben and Rey feel as though they need to destroy before they can build something new is a little better than that. Especially if it means Ben and Luke get to fight for real and Ben actually wins, legitimising him as a threat and providing a catalyst for his own fall to the dark side for real as the adrenaline rush and pain of killing his own family pushes him over the edge.


Nah, sounds like Kylo wanking trash that further humiliates Luke and only makes your previous "all sides had good reason"  even more nonsensical if Kylo is still the clear villain.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jul 28, 2020)

Is anyone displeased that we never saw Leia coming to terms with the fact that Luke was her brother and Darth Vader was her father? Those would have made for some great moments of depth and drama.

It may be several years too late to be asking this, but was anyone who was involved in the original six films involved with the sequel trilogy, or is the ST essentially glorified fanfiction?

The original trilogy heavily implied that once a force-sensitive person turned to the dark side, they could never return to the light, which made Vader's redemption all the more wonderful and special, so does Kylo Ren redeeming himself undermine the miracle of Vader's redemption?


----------



## Velocity (Jul 28, 2020)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Is anyone displeased that we never saw Leia coming to terms with the fact that Luke was her brother and Darth Vader was her father? Those would have made for some great moments of depth and drama.
> 
> It may be several years too late to be asking this, but was anyone who was involved in the original six films involved with the sequel trilogy, or is the ST essentially glorified fanfiction?
> 
> The original trilogy heavily implied that once a force-sensitive person turned to the dark side, they could never return to the light, which made Vader's redemption all the more wonderful and special, so does Kylo Ren redeeming himself undermine the miracle of Vader's redemption?



Essentially, yeah, the sequel trilogy is fanfiction. Well two thirds of it certainly was. Abrams is unapologetic about how big of a Star Wars nerd he is, which is why the two movies he did were filled with distinctly Star Wars moments and feel good scenes for the original cast.

I'm not so sure Rian Johnson is much of a Star Wars fan, though. The Last Jedi doesn't feel like much of a Star Wars movie.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 28, 2020)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Is anyone displeased that we never saw Leia coming to terms with the fact that Luke was her brother and Darth Vader was her father? Those would have made for some great moments of depth and drama.
> 
> It may be several years too late to be asking this, but was anyone who was involved in the original six films involved with the sequel trilogy, or is the ST essentially glorified fanfiction?
> 
> The original trilogy heavily implied that once a force-sensitive person turned to the dark side, they could never return to the light, which made Vader's redemption all the more wonderful and special, so does Kylo Ren redeeming himself undermine the miracle of Vader's redemption?



Lawrence Kasdan wrote "The Force Awakens" (and "Solo").


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## hcheng02 (Jul 29, 2020)




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## hcheng02 (Jul 29, 2020)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> I wonder if an outdated view on the prequels isn't what helped neck the new trilogy. Its hardly a secret that Disney chose to stick very close to the first trilogy while distancing itself from anything to do with the prequels. The Republic barely being a thing, Corusant being completely absent and even the more epic lightsaber battles which people _liked _from the prequels being gone are all examples of that.
> 
> I've always maintained that Disney's problematic handling of Star Wars wasn't due to being ''woke'' but due to being extremely corporate. And on paper, on cold, corporate paper it makes sense to ditch the prequels completely. The original movies were universally beloved while the Prequels were a _punchline _for years. One could argue Star Wars experienced a steep decline in that period, a decline Disney could ''fix''.
> 
> ...



The rehabilitation owes much to animated Clone Wars animated series which fixed alot of the glaring flaws of the prequel movies - namely making Anakin likeable and giving him a good reason to be angry at the Jedi Council, fleshing out the other Jedi, and having a good kid friendly character that also happens to be one of the best developed female characters in Star Wars. That was what introduced an entire generation to the world and characters of Star Wars, and with the passage of time both the prequel movies and the animated series congealed into a singular "prequel" timeline in the minds of the fandom. 

The problem is that there was a singular artistic vision in the prequel series where other writers can figure out the general themes and character arcs so they can use it as a springboard to other stories. Whereas I don't think you can do that with the sequel series since it's very obvious that there are two conflicting artistic visions - J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson's - and neither of them seem to be particularly well accepted or planned.


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## Velocity (Jul 29, 2020)

hcheng02 said:


> The rehabilitation owes much to animated Clone Wars animated series which fixed alot of the glaring flaws of the prequel movies - namely making Anakin likeable and giving him a good reason to be angry at the Jedi Council, fleshing out the other Jedi, and having a good kid friendly character that also happens to be one of the best developed female characters in Star Wars. That was what introduced an entire generation to the world and characters of Star Wars, and with the passage of time both the prequel movies and the animated series congealed into a singular "prequel" timeline in the minds of the fandom.
> 
> The problem is that there was a singular artistic vision in the prequel series where other writers can figure out the general themes and character arcs so they can use it as a springboard to other stories. Whereas I don't think you can do that with the sequel series since it's very obvious that there are two conflicting artistic visions - J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson's - and neither of them seem to be particularly well accepted or planned.



It doesn’t exactly help that the only time period you could really explore in a cartoon is between The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker, except that Rise of Skywalker makes it clear nothing actually happened in that time frame. The Resistance didn’t recruit any new members or liberate any planets, Rey didn’t find any other Jedi and Ben didn’t really do anything until he was interrupted by Palpatine in the middle of a Fortnite match. Plus, of course, Luke is dead, Han is dead and you don’t really want to use Leia since Carrie Fisher passed away.

Seems like a generally awful idea to try to salvage the sequel trilogy. 

It’d probably be better to go with a show set around the same time as The Mandalorian, like a few years before it, with Luke, Leia and Han fighting alongside the Rebellion against the remnants of the Empire while also trying to establish a new Republic and find any surviving Jedi. Throw in some Inquisitors who seek to kill Luke and avenge Vader’s death, some criminal organisations like the Crimson Dawn who are trying to fill in the power vacuum left behind by the Empire and some cameos from characters that showed up in The Clone Wars and Rebels and I think you’d be onto a winner.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Jul 29, 2020)

Clay said:


> It’d probably be better to go with a show set around the same time as The Mandalorian, like a few years before it, with Luke, Leia and Han fighting alongside the Rebellion against the remnants of the Empire while also trying to establish a new Republic and find any surviving Jedi. Throw in some Inquisitors who seek to kill Luke and avenge Vader’s death, some criminal organisations like the Crimson Dawn who are trying to fill in the power vacuum left behind by the Empire and some cameos from characters that showed up in The Clone Wars and Rebels and I think you’d be onto a winner.



Or you know. Employ the big gun


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 29, 2020)

Clay said:


> Ben didn’t really do anything until he was interrupted by Palpatine in the middle of a Fortnite match.



I Lol'd


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## MartialHorror (Jul 29, 2020)

Clay said:


> It doesn’t exactly help that the only time period you could really explore in a cartoon is between The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker, except that Rise of Skywalker makes it clear nothing actually happened in that time frame. The Resistance didn’t recruit any new members or liberate any planets, Rey didn’t find any other Jedi and Ben didn’t really do anything until he was interrupted by Palpatine in the middle of a Fortnite match. Plus, of course, Luke is dead, Han is dead and you don’t really want to use Leia since Carrie Fisher passed away.
> 
> Seems like a generally awful idea to try to salvage the sequel trilogy.
> 
> It’d probably be better to go with a show set around the same time as The Mandalorian, like a few years before it, with Luke, Leia and Han fighting alongside the Rebellion against the remnants of the Empire while also trying to establish a new Republic and find any surviving Jedi. Throw in some Inquisitors who seek to kill Luke and avenge Vader’s death, some criminal organisations like the Crimson Dawn who are trying to fill in the power vacuum left behind by the Empire and some cameos from characters that showed up in The Clone Wars and Rebels and I think you’d be onto a winner.



It can be done if they simply do a good job with the characters though. I thought Darth Maul surviving TPM and never being mentioned again (till Solo) was a stupid, pandering idea that was completely unnecessary. But even though I don't know first hand as I never watched it, apparently the shows made it work. Most agree that Darth Maul became a much more fascinating character, worthy of his memorable design.

The stories just need to be somewhat more personal. Like I said, I dont follow the shows too much, but the idea of Obi Wan and Darth Maul's final duel taking place in an isolated desert actually sounds very dramatic, even though it's much more intimate than what the movies would've done.

TV shows rely more on character than story... at least in my opinion... so even if little happens in the grand scheme of things, if the writers can find interesting ways of fleshing out the characters, then it could work.

HOWEVER,

The prequels (at least until ROTS) were more for kids, so I assume "The Clone Wars" sort of arose from that age group who would likely still be interested in animation. The sequels were more for adults, who are less likely going to be interested in cartoons. So even if a new show is good or even great, it doesn't mean that it will catch fire the same way the Prequel shows did.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 29, 2020)

"The sequels were more for adults"


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## MartialHorror (Jul 29, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "The sequels were more for adults"



Am I wrong? Or do you think I'm equating "for adults" with "superior" (or more complex, etc.)  

The sequels are all PG-13. They pushed hard for OT purists, had a more sombre tone. They... at least tried... to push or focus on politics that children certainly wouldn't understand and even teenagers probably wouldn't care about.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 30, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Am I wrong? Or do you think I'm equating "for adults" with "superior" (or more complex, etc.)


You are by the fact nothing about the Sequels is any darker or complex compared to the Prequels and in fact far less so.


MartialHorror said:


> The sequels are all PG-13.


Ratings mean jackshit since plenty of films rated less than that have stuff that would be considered too much for the age range like SpaceBalls and even some Hammer Dracula films. The actual content in the film determines that and it's clear the Sequels were anything but "mature" compared the Prequels.


MartialHorror said:


> They pushed hard for OT purists


Which does not change the fact they clearly intended to draw newer audiences anyway.


MartialHorror said:


> had a more sombre tone.


Pfft no they didn't.


MartialHorror said:


> They... at least tried... to push or focus on politics that children certainly wouldn't understand and even teenagers probably wouldn't care about.


.....What? I'm sorry did we watch the same movies? because I clearly remember the Prequels doing that while the Sequels almost entirely avoided such a thing to it's detriment because no one even knew what the fuck was going on with the Galaxy for it to get where it was. The exact opposite from the Prequels which were routinely criticized for focusing on Politics


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## MartialHorror (Jul 30, 2020)

On another note, I don't buy any of this "reset the canon" stuff. I don't know if that's ever worked unless there has been some distance and I doubt Disney would be patient. Whenever a franchise starts doing it in quick succession, the numbers don't usually go up that much. Even good ones like "Spider-Man Homecoming" didn't do THAT much better and that was part of the franchise that Star Wars was attempting to be like.  



NostalgiaFan said:


> You are by the fact nothing about the Sequels is any darker or complex compared to the Prequels and in fact far less so.
> 
> Ratings mean jackshit since plenty of films rated less than that have stuff that would be considered too much for the age range like SpaceBalls and even some Hammer Dracula films. The actual content in the film determines that and it's clear the Sequels were anything but "mature" compared the Prequels.
> 
> ...



... So are you saying the sequel trilogy was for kids?


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 30, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> ... So are you saying the sequel trilogy was for kids?


They sure as hell were not for adults.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 30, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> They sure as hell were not for adults.



Who do you think they were made for?

I think you're trying to equate this to a quality thing and I'm treating it more as a marketing issue. Just compare the trailers for The Phantom Menace and The Force Awakens.


The trailer... oddly... seems to focus on the perspective of Anakin Skywalker (a little kid), the action is much more colorful and the music a lot more exciting, with plenty of footage of Jar Jar being Jar Jar.


This trailer has much more sombre music, Rey and Finn going through existential crises's, Kylo Ren being ominous and the action is more intense. It's clearly aiming for an older demographic.

Edit: am I the only one who thinks the Yoda puppet in the TPM trailer is terrifying? I don't like Lucas's constant CGI brush-ups, but I think I prefer CGI Yoda in that movie. Strange too, as the puppet effects didn't bother me in either the OT or TLJ.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 30, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Who do you think they were made for?


Disney's pockets. It's clear the Sequels were just a way for them to make money so they tried to appeal to both long time fans of the franchise and attract newer and younger audiences, only to fail at both as shown by their reception.


MartialHorror said:


> I think you're trying to equate this to a quality thing and I'm treating it more as a marketing issue.


Dude you were clearly referring to the Sequels in more ways than just marketing as being "mature" with things like "more somber tone" when the type of jokes and direction they went with was more slapstick and simple with yo momma jokes and a complete disregard to anything like politics or world building to explain anything and a far more black and white plot that just recycled shit from the OT.


MartialHorror said:


> Just compare the trailers for The Phantom Menace and The Force Awakens.


Comparing Trailers in the first place is idiotic since not only are trailers from decades ago are used far differently than today, the films themselves are what determine if they are "mature" or not and TFA was anything but "mature" in comparison to TPM, not even talking about quality difference there.


MartialHorror said:


> The trailer... oddly... seems to focus on the perspective of Anakin Skywalker (a little kid), the action is much more colorful and the music a lot more exciting, with plenty of footage of Jar Jar being Jar Jar.


Well yeah any long time fan who knows who Anakin is would be focused on him more than others since this is the boy who becomes Darth Vader. Of course he would get focus since it's his story and he is the most important character in the saga.


MartialHorror said:


> This trailer has much more sombre music, Rey and Finn going through existential crises's, Kylo Ren being ominous and the action is more intense. It's clearly aiming for an older demographic.


"somber music" this is a child's way of thinking something is "mature". This shit is common in almost everything nowadays. Even films clearly intended for only children have it to some extent, it's just how trailers are used today. Characters being all emotional and shit happens all the time, it's not "adult" it's a basic thing used everywhere, trying to pretend that equals being "mature" or reflects on the films themselves is nonsensical. "bad guy being ominous" really dude? I don't even need to explain how ridiculous a point that is. "muh intense action" Since when is action mature? We saw enough of that in TPM trailer so how is TFA any different? 

Hell looking at the TPM it has those same elements of "somber tones" you harp on about with the first 30 seconds taking it slow with the text describing "every generation has a legend" and we see characters describe the boy as a possible threat and Maul looks no less intimidation than Kylo in the few seconds he has in the trailer. That still would not get me arguing it is "adult" more like it is reminding long time fans of the franchise of what it is.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 30, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Disney's pockets. It's clear the Sequels were just a way for them to make money so they tried to appeal to both long time fans of the franchise and attract newer and younger audiences, only to fail at both as shown by their reception.
> 
> Dude you were clearly referring to the Sequels in more ways than just marketing as being "mature" with things like "more somber tone" when the type of jokes and direction they went with was more slapstick and simple with yo momma jokes and a complete disregard to anything like politics or world building to explain anything and a far more black and white plot that just recycled shit from the OT.
> 
> ...



lol OK NostalgiaFan.


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## Gunners (Jul 30, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> It can be done if they simply do a good job with the characters though. I thought Darth Maul surviving TPM and never being mentioned again (till Solo) was a stupid, pandering idea that was completely unnecessary. But even though I don't know first hand as I never watched it, apparently the shows made it work. Most agree that Darth Maul became a much more fascinating character, worthy of his memorable design.



It was just good story telling. His introduction effectively fleshed out 3 characters: Maul, Sidious and Kenobi. His character arc was interesting and came full circle (Kenobi countering the move he used to kill Qui Gon with him finding peace in death).


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## Velocity (Jul 30, 2020)

Maul is pretty fantastic in the shows.

He was truly devout to the Sith, despite being stolen from his home and essentially forced to serve Palpatine. He really did believe that the Jedi were wrong and needed to be destroyed and that he and Palpatine would be the ones to do it.

Then he was cut in half, left for dead and his master never tried to find him. All that kept Maul alive for all those years was his hatred of Obi-Wan, who robbed him of his destiny and his purpose.

It's kinda sad to think that Maul stuck true to the teachings of his master, gathering power in both political and criminal circles and killing Jedi, but that all it meant was Palpatine would see him as a rival and destroy everything he built.

It's not really until then that I think Maul understood he had no place in Palpatine's plans and so his hatred of the Sith began to fester. They took everything from him, even after he gave them everything he had. It's no wonder he ended up wanting to kill Palpatine as much as he wanted to kill Obi-Wan.

Maul and Asajj both had really damn tragic stories, made all the more sad by the fact they both came from Dathomir. You can't help but think it was all part of Palpatine's long term plan to destroy the Nightsisters, the only real equal to his power over the dark side of the Force, and they - and Savage - were merely pawns in it.


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## Gunners (Jul 30, 2020)




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## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 30, 2020)

Lucas did say star wars was for 12 year olds in his mind.
This thought does show in the prequels.

Phantom had it mostly in the form of Jar Jar and Anakins glee at which he did things.
The other two prequels made the droids even more comedic when fighting the jedi with their comments etc.

The sequels on the other hand were more edgelordy so they have a more teenager vibe to them.
It's because they sucked so much, that they feel less adult than the prequels.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 31, 2020)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Lucas did say star wars was for 12 year olds in his mind.
> This thought does show in the prequels.
> 
> Phantom had it mostly in the form of Jar Jar and Anakins glee at which he did things.
> ...


Maybe the sequels were more for teens but that still does not make them "for adults". And comedic droids does not take away the fact the last two Prequels had things such as political conspiracy, Anakin killing an entire village of men, women and children, everything to do with order 66, and the fact the good guys lose to the bad guys. Again does not make it adult but there is far darker material in the Prequels than in the sequels which outside of Kylo's sperging on about "duh dark" have nothing in comparison.


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## Velocity (Jul 31, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Maybe the sequels were more for teens but that still does not make them "for adults". And comedic droids does not take away the fact the last two Prequels had things such as political conspiracy, Anakin killing an entire village of men, women and children, everything to do with order 66, and the fact the good guys lose to the bad guys. Again does not make it adult but there is far darker material in the Prequels than in the sequels which outside of Kylo's sperging on about "duh dark" have nothing in comparison.



That’s because the prequels had a point, a purpose and a story to tell. Folks complain about trade negotiations and political conspiracies, but that’s how all wars are started and Palpatine got what he wanted. He revealed to the galaxy that the current Supreme Chancellor was spineless and replaced him, promising the Republic the very things that would eventually lead to its destruction - safety, security and strength. The prequels as a whole are basically a huge allegory about the dangers of giving too much power to those who want it.

Ben has nothing on Anakin, either. Anakin had real, true darkness inside him. He struggled with that his whole life, trying to bury it deep down and be a good person, but it was a fight he would inevitably lose because he his greatest weakness was that he was so powerful and he wanted even more. The darkness in him would consume him, taking away everything he ever cared about and even robbing him of his own body, and in the end the only person who broke through that darkness was Luke.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 31, 2020)

I do love how you guys are focused on Ben and how he compares with Anakin...without hardly a mention of how the sequels killed off the heroes from the original trilogy.

But it still doesn't matter, as I was trying to discuss a marketing issue. Don't get why NostalgiaFan was trying to argue that I wasn't, especially as we've had arguments before how I think Star Wars should target kids as their primary demographic again, but that's why I try avoid these kinds of debates.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I do love how you guys are focused on Ben and how he compares with Anakin...without hardly a mention of how the sequels killed off the heroes from the original trilogy.


And? Killing characters off does not just make stuff any darker than the other. The darkest shit in the the Prequels involved stuff like Anakin massacring villages of people, betraying his friend's and allies and joining the bad guys, Palpatine successfully destroying the Jedi and converting the Republic under his control over the course of 3 movies and the overall victory going to the bad guys which is far more dark and less child friendly than anything in the Sequels which despite having said iconic characters die treats it is a far more lighter than it should mostly because Rey herself is never allowed to truly fail.


MartialHorror said:


> But it still doesn't matter, as I was trying to discuss a marketing issue.


And you're wrong on both accounts, either implying you only talked about marketing and on if said marketing was even "adult" to begin with.


MartialHorror said:


> Don't get why NostalgiaFan was trying to argue that I wasn't, especially as we've had arguments before how I think Star Wars should target kids as their primary demographic again, but that's why I try avoid these kinds of debates.


Quit the act, you never made a single mention of only discussing marketing until after I laughed at your comment of saying "the Sequels were more for adults" and now your just backpedaling to pretend you were always about that when it's wrong.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 31, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> And? Killing characters off does not just make stuff any darker than the other. The darkest shit in the the Prequels involved stuff like Anakin massacring villages of people, betraying his friend's and allies and joining the bad guys, Palpatine successfully destroying the Jedi and converting the Republic under his control over the course of 3 movies and the overall victory going to the bad guys which is far more dark and less child friendly than anything in the Sequels which despite having said iconic characters die treats it is a far more lighter than it should mostly because Rey herself is never allowed to truly fail.
> 
> And you're wrong on both accounts, either implying you only talked about marketing and on if said marketing was even "adult" to begin with.
> 
> Quit the act, you never made a single mention of only discussing marketing until after I laughed at your comment of saying "the Sequels were more for adults" and now your just backpedaling to pretend you were always about that when it's wrong.



lol, not going to be drawn into another argument with you. It doesn't matter if you think my argument was for the content or marketing, because either way, I think the sequels were at least designed for an older demographic. Lucas made it clear Star Wars was for kids. I don't know if Kennedy or Abrams ever made a specific claim about their target audience, but seems obvious to me they were at least trying to bring back those who didn't like the prequels -- ie, older audiences. 

I've made it clear in the past that's why I think merchandising has declined, as kids aren't going to respond to the edgier trailers, the female empowerment emphasis in interviews, going retro, etc. And adults will be divided even further. 

That is all I have to say on that, because the one sentence you got hung up on was hardly my original point.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 31, 2020)

Clay said:


> That’s because the prequels had a point, a purpose and a story to tell.



I would say the Sequel Trilogy has a story to tell too. To be specific, the villains of the story capture quite well the essence of what fascism looks like, which is also thematic with the Prequel Trilogy when taking the motivations of the Sith into account.

The First Order patterns itself fully after the Galactic Empire, which is mythologized by its successor state, and members of the First Order believe that they were once great, but they lost their way because of the New Republic, and seek to be great again by returning the galaxy to an older "order" by any means necessary. To seize that power, they obliterated the New Republic Senate on Hosnian Prime.

This also encompasses Sidious' machinations in the Prequel Trilogy, and his return in Episode IX. Specifically, the mythologized past of the Sith, the hatred of the Jedi because they destroyed the Sith, and a desire to restore the Sith's rule over the galaxy by any means necessary. Once he was in a position to do so, Palpatine used Order 66 to wipe out the Jedi.

This can be applied to the Prequel Trilogy, but it is much more apparent when Episode IX rolls around. After the downfall of the Galactic Empire, the Sith Eternal and the Final Order intended to return the Sith to power by any means necessary, and the Sith Eternal Fleet was meant to do so with a finality.



Clay said:


> Ben has nothing on Anakin, either.



That is actually the point behind Ben's relationship with the _mythology _of Darth Vader, not the history of Anakin himself. Ben was conditioned and manipulated by Snoke throughout his descent towards the Dark Side into an obsession with his own "past", with Darth Vader. Conditioned to believe that he must follow in Vader's foot-steps, that he must "finish" what Vader started. That Vader failed because he couldn't resist the "pull of the Light". 

That is how it started with Ben in "The Force Awakens", at least. He goes on a quite different trajectory from Anakin from there _because _he is different. Because he is _not _Anakin, no matter how much he initially wanted to be like Vader due to Snoke's conditioning.


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## NostalgiaFan (Jul 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> lol, not going to be drawn into another argument with you. It doesn't matter if you think my argument was for the content or marketing, because either way, I think the sequels were at least designed for an older demographic.


Nothing about either the marketing or the films themselves made them out be anything other than the standard Disney fare of the day which is aiming at the family market no more than what the previous two trilogies were.


MartialHorror said:


> Lucas made it clear Star Wars was for kids. I don't know if Kennedy or Abrams ever made a specific claim about their target audience, but seems obvious to me they were at least trying to bring back those who didn't like the prequels -- ie, older audiences.


Reaching for nostalgia is no different than what the Prequels did in marketing as I already mentioned, it does not change the fact kids and younger generations were their main target and the fact they pushed so hard for things like Galaxy Edge to only have Sequel Trilogy content shows older audiences from both the previous trilogies were not what they mainly had in mind.


MartialHorror said:


> I've made it clear in the past that's why I think merchandising has declined, as kids aren't going to respond to the edgier trailers, the female empowerment emphasis in interviews, going retro, etc. And adults will be divided even further.


Pfft marketing alone is not what is driving kids away. TFA made over 2 bill when it came out and TLJ was pulling good numbers until after it's first week where it really dropped the ball. All that points more to the fact that kids and younger audiences were simply not happy with the direction the franchise was going and not enjoying the story or the characters like they thought they would, not because of "edgy trailers". Hell films like The Dark knight did well a lot because of factors like kids loving the new darker and edgier trailers when they came out like I did and even other SW films like Revenge of the Sith which featured darker trailers than the previous film before it did a lot better showing that kids are not thrown off by edge, in fact they love it more than not, Boys especially and they made up a vast majority of the SW fanbase.


MartialHorror said:


> That is all I have to say on that, because the one sentence you got hung up on was hardly my original point.


Funny you say hung up when you could have just ignored my comment to begin with since it was just me laughing at that one part to which you bothered to reply to.


----------



## MartialHorror (Jul 31, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> I would say the Sequel Trilogy has a story to tell too. To be specific, the villains of the story capture quite well the essence of what fascism looks like, which is also thematic with the Prequel Trilogy when taking the motivations of the Sith into account.
> 
> The First Order patterns itself fully after the Galactic Empire, which is mythologized by its successor state, and members of the First Order believe that they were once great, but they lost their way because of the New Republic, and seek to be great again by returning the galaxy to an older "order" by any means necessary. To seize that power, they obliterated the New Republic Senate on Hosnian Prime.
> 
> ...



Yeah but that's not really what they're talking about. Lucas had an overarching vision for his trilogies, even if obviously he'd change his mind on specific things. I think Kennedy, Abrams, etc. had a vision at some point, but for whatever reason, they threw it out when they decided not to do Treverrow's script.



NostalgiaFan said:


> Funny you say hung up when you could have just ignored my comment to begin with since it was just me laughing at that one part to which you bothered to reply to.



Yeah, yeah. I know.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jul 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> Yeah but that's not really what they're talking about. Lucas had an overarching vision for his trilogies, even if obviously he'd change his mind on specific things.



I am well aware his vision changed _greatly_ over the course of the Original Trilogy. 

Darth Vader wasn't Luke's father until Lucas had finished the first draft of _Empire, _and found he couldn't make Anakin Skywalker's presence in the script work alongside Yoda and Obi-Wan, but realized that Anakin and Vader being one and the same worked better.

Leia wasn't Luke's sister until _Return of the Jedi, _since the original idea was that The Other (named Nellith Skywalker in Leigh Brackett's first draft script of _Empire) _wouldn't have shown up until the films after Episode VI, at the time, and she would have had a role in establishing the new generation of Jedi alongside Luke, and fought alongside him against Emperor Palpatine in Episode IX_. _Making Leia the Other was because Lucas needed to wrap everything up in Episode VI.

The former was so substantial that Lucas decided there would be a Prequel Trilogy to explore the fall of Anakin Skywalker; the latter gave Episode VI a closed book ending because, otherwise, people would have been expecting sequels about Luke's twin sister which Lucas didn't have plans to make at the time. 

Because of both changes together, _Star Wars _became a vastly different story than it could have been had Lucas stuck with his original ideas for both Vader and Luke's twin sister. The Episodes VII, VIII and IX that could have been had Lucas followed through with Luke's twin being a new character might have likely been quite different from the Sequel Trilogy that would have explored the midi-chlorians and the Whills, which we heard about recently. 

Because that's the nature of story-telling. You can have an idea on where you want to go when you start a story, but even that can change over time.


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## MartialHorror (Jul 31, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> I am well aware his vision changed _greatly_ over the course of the Original Trilogy.
> 
> Darth Vader wasn't Luke's father until Lucas had finished the first draft of _Empire, _and found he couldn't make Anakin Skywalker's presence in the script work alongside Yoda and Obi-Wan, but realized that Anakin and Vader being one and the same worked better.
> 
> ...



Yeah I'm talking thematically. Both the OT and PT are about 'Democracy Vs Dictatorship', with the OT using visual motifs of both WW2 and the Vietnam War and the PT (at least eventually) using the War on Terror. Both were, in their own ways, timely and the stories were built around those. 

You can argue that the sequel does this too, but it;s more incidental, as if Abrams and company weren't making a point as much as they were replicating Lucas's point.

I do think the first two movies of the ST had their own thematic points, but like I said, "Rise of Skywalker" sort of derailed them.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 31, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> You can argue that the sequel does this too, but it;s more incidental, as if Abrams and company weren't making a point as much as they were replicating Lucas's point.



I don't consider that to be a bad thing, because it means that the themes remain consistent across the three films. For me, the Sequel Trilogy possesses applicability, which means it is comparable and applicable to things in real life, just as I feel the Original and Prequel Trilogies are as well. Lucas did have intended themes for the two trilogies, but the way they are presented is such that you can apply other interpretations to the story as well, based on modern day events or past history.



> I do think the first two movies of the ST had their own thematic points, but like I said, "Rise of Skywalker" sort of derailed them.



I agree the first two had their own thematic points, but I also believe "The Rise of Skywalker" had its own points and didn't derail the other two.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 1, 2020)

Catalyst75 said:


> I don't consider that to be a bad thing, because it means that the themes remain consistent across the three films. For me, the Sequel Trilogy possesses applicability, which means it is comparable and applicable to things in real life, just as I feel the Original and Prequel Trilogies are as well. Lucas did have intended themes for the two trilogies, but the way they are presented is such that you can apply other interpretations to the story as well, based on modern day events or past history.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree the first two had their own thematic points, but I also believe "The Rise of Skywalker" had its own points and didn't derail the other two.



Fair enough.


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## DemonDragonJ (Aug 1, 2020)

As long as we are discussing the prequel and sequel trilogy, can you imagine how different history would have been if _A New Hope_ was not the fourth episode? Lucas did that to give the audience the impression that _Star Wars_ was an ongoing and epic saga, but that decision naturally made audiences wish to see the first three movies. Imagine if he had not done that?

Also, why did Lucasfilm even make the sequel trilogy, at all? The obvious answer is that they wanted more money, but _Return of the Jedi_ ended so perfectly that the sequel trilogy simply could not compare to the originals, which makes me wonder why the filmmakers even bothered with it.


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## Velocity (Aug 1, 2020)

DemonDragonJ said:


> As long as we are discussing the prequel and sequel trilogy, can you imagine how different history would have been if _A New Hope_ was not the fourth episode? Lucas did that to give the audience the impression that _Star Wars_ was an ongoing and epic saga, but that decision naturally made audiences wish to see the first three movies. Imagine if he had not done that?
> 
> Also, why did Lucasfilm even make the sequel trilogy, at all? The obvious answer is that they wanted more money, but _Return of the Jedi_ ended so perfectly that the sequel trilogy simply could not compare to the originals, which makes me wonder why the filmmakers even bothered with it.



It doesn’t really matter what Lucasfilm wanted. Disney bought them to make more Star Wars movies and sell more Star Wars merchandise. Disney wanted a sequel trilogy and I assume they wanted it out much sooner than the previous two trilogies came out, which is why it was ultimately a mess. I’m pretty sure the only reason Feige is allowed to do what he wants with the Marvel stuff is because Disney saw what he could do before they even bought Marvel and they don’t want to interfere with that as long as it makes them billions every year.


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## DemonDragonJ (Aug 1, 2020)

Clay said:


> It doesn’t really matter what Lucasfilm wanted. Disney bought them to make more Star Wars movies and sell more Star Wars merchandise. Disney wanted a sequel trilogy and I assume they wanted it out much sooner than the previous two trilogies came out, which is why it was ultimately a mess. I’m pretty sure the only reason Feige is allowed to do what he wants with the Marvel stuff is because Disney saw what he could do before they even bought Marvel and they don’t want to interfere with that as long as it makes them billions every year.



Given how well the MCU has been doing, it does not make any sense that Disney would not have allowed the people at Lucasfilm to have greater creative freedom when they made the sequel trilogy.


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## Velocity (Aug 1, 2020)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Given how well the MCU has been doing, it does not make any sense that Disney would not have allowed the people at Lucasfilm to have greater creative freedom when they made the sequel trilogy.



That’s the question of the hour. You’d have assumed Disney would approach Lucasfilm with the same hands-off approach that they afford Marvel, but maybe there’s too much drama behind the scenes. We know Disney cancelled The Clone Wars, for example, yet would eventually end up giving us two more seasons anyway. We also know Disney forced George Lucas out and they’ve since noticed that the franchise is lacking the creative spark he gave it, so they’re probably regretting that a lot. Then there’s, of course, all those projects that keep changing directors and whatnot, all the fuss about The Last Jedi and how nobody seems to like Rise of Skywalker.

Either Disney isn’t giving Lucasfilm the space it needs to make the best content it can or Lucasfilm simply cannot produce the amount of content in the time that Disney wants. Either way, Lucasfilm is in dire need of its own Kevin Feige. Someone to come in and provide Lucasfilm with a direction and an overall vision for the future of Star Wars. Which, if recent rumours (that have been gaining a lot of traction and coverage lately) are to be believed, might be George Lucas after all.


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## DemonDragonJ (Aug 1, 2020)

Last night, I watched _Knives Out_ for the first time, and I really it; how could that film and _The Last Jedi_ both be directed by the same director, when there was such a major difference in quality between them?



Clay said:


> Either Disney isn’t giving Lucasfilm the space it needs to make the best content it can or Lucasfilm simply cannot produce the amount of content in the time that Disney wants. Either way, Lucasfilm is in dire need of its own Kevin Feige. Someone to come in and provide Lucasfilm with a direction and an overall vision for the future of Star Wars. *Which, if recent rumours (that have been gaining a lot of traction and coverage lately) are to be believed, might be George Lucas after all.*



Both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs left their respective companies at one point, and, when they eventually returned, they were welcomed back like heroes returning from an epic journey, so I would not be surprised if the same thing happened with George Lucas, as well.


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## Mider T (Aug 1, 2020)

Clay said:


> We also know Disney forced George Lucas out


Thought he left voluntarily?


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## Velocity (Aug 1, 2020)

Mider T said:


> Thought he left voluntarily?



He wanted to stay involved, even going so far as to provide ideas and plans for the sequel trilogy - many of which Disney would actually use, although they’d never credit him for it - but Disney ultimately decided they didn’t want him around. He didn’t sell Lucasfilm to Disney because he didn’t want anything to do with the company any more, but because he didn’t want to run it any more.

We do know that he has been involved a lot *unofficially*, though. He visited Ron Howard on the set of Solo, he had input on costume and set designs in The Mandalorian and Abrams visited Lucas while writing the script for Rise of Skywalker. I’d be pretty surprised if Dave Filoni hadn’t discussed the final season of The Clone Wars with him, too.

If Disney asked him back he’d totally say yes, but I don’t believe the rumours saying he’s ousting Kennedy or that he said he’d only come back if he was given full control. It’s far more likely he’d just replace the Story Group and be personally involved in the direction of the Star Wars franchise as a whole as well as individual movies.


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## MartialHorror (Aug 1, 2020)

DemonDragonJ said:


> As long as we are discussing the prequel and sequel trilogy, can you imagine how different history would have been if _A New Hope_ was not the fourth episode? Lucas did that to give the audience the impression that _Star Wars_ was an ongoing and epic saga, but that decision naturally made audiences wish to see the first three movies. Imagine if he had not done that?
> 
> Also, why did Lucasfilm even make the sequel trilogy, at all? The obvious answer is that they wanted more money, but _Return of the Jedi_ ended so perfectly that the sequel trilogy simply could not compare to the originals, which makes me wonder why the filmmakers even bothered with it.



To be fair, the fandom REALLY wanted it at the time. The timing just seemed right. 



DemonDragonJ said:


> Given how well the MCU has been doing, it does not make any sense that Disney would not have allowed the people at Lucasfilm to have greater creative freedom when they made the sequel trilogy.



It actually sounds like they did for a moment. I think a combination of "The Last Jedi"'s backlash and "Solo" undergoing such a difficult production scared them into micromanaging.


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## Suigetsu (Aug 3, 2020)

Clay said:


> That’s the question of the hour. You’d have assumed Disney would approach Lucasfilm with the same hands-off approach that they afford Marvel, but maybe there’s too much drama behind the scenes. We know Disney cancelled The Clone Wars, for example, yet would eventually end up giving us two more seasons anyway. We also know Disney forced George Lucas out and they’ve since noticed that the franchise is lacking the creative spark he gave it, so they’re probably regretting that a lot. Then there’s, of course, all those projects that keep changing directors and whatnot, all the fuss about The Last Jedi and how nobody seems to like Rise of Skywalker.
> 
> Either Disney isn’t giving Lucasfilm the space it needs to make the best content it can or Lucasfilm simply cannot produce the amount of content in the time that Disney wants. Either way, Lucasfilm is in dire need of its own Kevin Feige. Someone to come in and provide Lucasfilm with a direction and an overall vision for the future of Star Wars. Which, if recent rumours (that have been gaining a lot of traction and coverage lately) are to be believed, might be George Lucas after all.


Feige is over rated, all he has produced is mindless green screen cinema and joke crap like Ironman 3. 

Lucas was a pioneer, a visonary, took risks. That shit isnt a formula, it's called pioneering and it can only be done when you have someone riding it out of sheer passion, this usually happens when said artist its doing his/her own stuff. But now that Disney owns it that is outright out of the window. SW by all means and porpouses its over, George lucas its the main cog of the clock that made it work, if you replace it then it will not only not be the same but nothing more than a fan fic trying to emulate the original thing. 

Disney fucked up because they tried to grow too fast, Iger got greedy and he and his cronies back stabbed George. This is George's fault because he treated with the system that had he had always fought against, I feel bad for him but this is what it is.


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## Mider T (Aug 12, 2020)

Disney has long had an association with Star Wars

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame3rd14 (Aug 19, 2020)

Never been to Disneyland but the old star tour ride in Disney World Was a favorite of mine from ages 5-15.


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## U mad bro (Sep 2, 2020)

Boyega pretty much says fuck Disney


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 3, 2020)

U mad bro said:


> Boyega pretty much says fuck Disney



Yeah.
Do complaining the main characters had a complete story line compared to the side chars is pretty redundant.
And even kylo and rei's arcs weren't much to begin with.


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## Garcher (Sep 3, 2020)

^you can't tell me that Finn wasn't marketed as a main character. Maybe not as the central protagonist, but definitely Han Solo level of important. 

well, The Force Awakens could have never been the basis for anything good anyway. The reason why he was sidelined was probably that they didn't know what to do with his character (which is why he got this completely out of place and pointless casino side storyline in TLJ)


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## Vault (Sep 3, 2020)

Garcher said:


> ^you can't tell me that Finn wasn't marketed as a main character. Maybe not as the central protagonist, but definitely Han Solo level of important.
> 
> well, The Force Awakens could have never been the basis for anything good anyway. The reason why he was sidelined was probably that they didn't know what to do with his character (which is why he got this completely out of place and pointless casino side storyline in TLJ)



Not even close. He was marketed as the guy. All the posters. He was always the one shown wielding the lightsaber. Trailers showed him using said lightsaber. Everything pointed to a force sensitive stormtrooper breaking away. The title the force awakens even backed said claim.


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## U mad bro (Sep 3, 2020)

The reality is Disney didn’t have a complete story and moved characters and storylines off of fan reaction. They only put minority characters in their story to catch the whole  progressive wave. They don’t actually give a darn about being inclusive lol


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 3, 2020)

Garcher said:


> ^you can't tell me that Finn wasn't marketed as a main character. Maybe not as the central protagonist, but definitely Han Solo level of important.
> 
> well, The Force Awakens could have never been the basis for anything good anyway. The reason why he was sidelined was probably that they didn't know what to do with his character (which is why he got this completely out of place and pointless casino side storyline in TLJ)



In the first movie, when everything was still in the throw it at the wall  and see what sticks phase.
From the second one he was on the level of Lando's plot importance.
So he should have known he lost any main character status he had.

Rian basically reset his development to square one by returning him to "jump ship" mode.
Abrams clearly had a plan with him by putting in jedi hints for him.
But with nothing to go on, he could only be side lined in the third film which was already a mess since there was nothing to work from.


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## U mad bro (Sep 3, 2020)

It was stupid to have two different directors on the trilogy. Nor have a solid direction for the story. Motherfuckers just going on trying shit. Especially the second dude he said ooh let’s just give the two minorities a bullshit pointless task for two hours. The blacks and Asians will love to see that lol


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 3, 2020)

I like to imagine Finn was fully conscious and genre savy of what kind of story he was in

When he met Rey he knew all he had to do was save her life and he'd be set, but she was too strong for that and he was knocked unconscious by the end and couldn't rack the points for his efforts

Then in TLJ the fat girl was trying to glue herself to him and he was trying the utmost to cut that. The moment when she "saved" him and kissed him was probably the lowest moment of his life. This is considering he was a stormtrooper slave mind you.

His behavior in ROS is just a sad man reduced to desperation

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Sep 3, 2020)

The first teaser for TFA was heavily hinting at Finn being a major player. The later promotional material was straight up misleading. He was being touted as a Jedi. He was gonna be the DT version of Legends favorite Kyle Katarn - an ex-Stormtrooper who finds out he has Force sensitivity and becomes a Jedi hero. That would have been a hell of an arc. It still leaves room for Rey also being a Jedi, because why should there be only one? Sure, there was one young, healthy Jedi in the original trilogy but not so in the prequels or the various video games and books. There was a precedent for a posse of Jedi. Would have been a simple thing to pull off but they fucked it up.


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## Velocity (Sep 3, 2020)

I dunno why the sequel trilogy was so damn scared of having more than one Jedi on the screen at any time. The Knights of Ren should've been like the Inquisitors, strong in the dark side and wielding unique lightsaber variants, and Rey should have had backup from Finn and Jedi that Luke had trained.


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## U mad bro (Sep 3, 2020)

Disney do act like they scared to use Jedi. It’s like it has to be only two to three of them. I wonder if the prequels scared them away. They didn’t  even try to turn up the saber battles skill levels to prequel levels


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## MartialHorror (Sep 3, 2020)

I actually prefer there being less jedi, as it makes their presence seem more impactful.


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I actually prefer there being less jedi, as it makes their presence seem more impactful.



There were only two living on-screen Jedi in a film at a time in the Original Trilogy as well. The Prequel Trilogy was about how the Jedi Order fell, so of course there'd be far more Jedi present on-screen in those films.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 3, 2020)

Lack of Jedi was nothing more than to continue making MaRey Sue into even more of a special self insert and it did nothing but make the Sequels even more dull.


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 3, 2020)

@MartialHorror You are also correct about the impact of their presence. Look at The Mandalorian and the Child. Yes, almost everyone was expecting the Child to be Force-Sensitive as a member of Yoda's species, but him being the only Force-wielder in the TV show, when most characters around him are generally unaware of what he can do, makes every moment he uses the Force that much more significant.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 3, 2020)

Not to mention just having Luke's academy get Order 66 2: Electric Boogaloo was just the height of laziness along with another way to shit over the man's legacy and remove what accomplishments he had.


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## U mad bro (Sep 3, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I actually prefer there being less jedi, as it makes their presence seem more impactful.


 Nah there is ways to make a series about them and be successful. There a reason people like the clone wars and rebels. The fact is the movies just present generic ass storylines compared to the the other outlets of Star Wars. The movies have too many bullshit checkboxes they have to hit.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 4, 2020)

I wasn't making a statement guys, just stating my personal preference.

Admittedly, I also prefer 'less is more' in regards to the Jedi in general. One of the reasons I prefer their portrayals in the OT is that even though the Jedi characters are clearly more powerful than non-Jedi, they don't necessarily seem like... comic book characters? I thought both the prequels and sequels turned them into superheroes. Sometimes it was awesome and obviously, I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me there. I think a lot of it though is that it was more interesting back when Jedi were mysterious.

One thing I didn't think about either was that when the prequels were produced, CGI-laden action scenes were not commonplace. I think "The Matrix" was the only one that really incorporated the technology into how the action was choreographed, although if I'm forgetting something, let me know. So when the Yoda Vs Palpatine fight happened, it really felt like the most epic collision ever. But it's become so commonplace that if the prequels were produced today, it wouldn't have the same impact... and yes, I'm aware that the prequels probably are part of the reason this style has become commonplace in the first place.

So if the new movies just had a lot of Jedi running around, it would just feel like a Marvel movie to me except with light sabers. Part of me actually wishes Finn was the protagonist but not the Jedi, as that would be different than what the movies have done.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 4, 2020)

In the end the lack of Jedi only hurt the sequels, not help them.


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## Garcher (Sep 4, 2020)

I think the best setting for the sequels would have been like 1000 years in the future in the world that the original protagonists built after their victory,  so that means a new jedi order. 

You can't name a movie Return of the Jedi and then don't have the Jedi returned in the follow-up movie.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 4, 2020)

Garcher said:


> I think the best setting for the sequels would have been like 1000 years in the future in the world that the original protagonists built after their victory,  so that means a new jedi order.
> 
> You can't name a movie Return of the Jedi and then don't have the Jedi returned in the follow-up movie.



That is a good point.


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## U mad bro (Sep 4, 2020)

I agree with the second movie message of letting go of the old story and try to come up with a new. However I will never cosign Luke getting shitted on and the adventures of Rose and Finn going to the casino lol.


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## Pilaf (Sep 4, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I actually prefer there being less jedi, as it makes their presence seem more impactful.



The thing is, by comparison to the PT and the EU, you can have a half dozen Jedi on screen and it's still "less Jedi".


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## Pilaf (Sep 4, 2020)

Speaking of Jedi, they also missed a golden opportunity to export one of the finer aspects of the EU - "Not the last of the old Jedi, Luke. The first of the new."

The idea of "New Jedi" who don't make the mistakes of the older, stiff, dogmatic ones. Luke's Jedi in the EU had relationships, even got married and had kids. They sometimes used dark side powers to serve the Light. They wore normal clothes, used blasters and thermal detonators in some situations, etc. In essence, they were pragmatic and human. Not aloof and arrogant. Imagine seeing Jedi like that on the big screen.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 4, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Speaking of Jedi, they also missed a golden opportunity to export one of the finer aspects of the EU - "Not the last of the old Jedi, Luke. The first of the new."
> 
> The idea of "New Jedi" who don't make the mistakes of the older, stiff, dogmatic ones. Luke's Jedi in the EU had relationships, even got married and had kids. They sometimes used dark side powers to serve the Light. They wore normal clothes, used blasters and thermal detonators in some situations, etc. In essence, they were pragmatic and human. Not aloof and arrogant. Imagine seeing Jedi like that on the big screen.


Oh man just thinking about seeing guys like Kyle Katarn makes me sad because Disney took away any chance of us having that on the big screen.


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## Pilaf (Sep 4, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Oh man just thinking about seeing guys like Kyle Katarn makes me sad because Disney took away any chance of us having that on the big screen.



The funny thing is, they don't like us, but they still like our money. You can still buy Jedi Knight and all the EU books. I just got mint copies of the Thrawn trilogy.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 4, 2020)

I'm more curious right now about what's going to happen with Indiana Jones.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 5, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I'm more curious right now about what's going to happen with Indiana Jones.



if it dies, it dies


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## Pilaf (Sep 5, 2020)

Yeah fuck Indiana Jones. I'm more pumped for Willow 2.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 5, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Yeah fuck Indiana Jones. I'm more pumped for Willow 2.



lol, I'm also curious about that one too. Just saw the first one for the first time a few months ago.


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## Velocity (Sep 5, 2020)

Garcher said:


> I think the best setting for the sequels would have been like 1000 years in the future in the world that the original protagonists built after their victory,  so that means a new jedi order.
> 
> You can't name a movie Return of the Jedi and then don't have the Jedi returned in the follow-up movie.



I think a New Jedi Order that learned from the mistakes of the past would have been quite well received, so I dunno why they decided the Jedi Order had to be wiped out again.

In fact I kinda wish the map everyone was looking for in The Force Awakens had been directions to the new Jedi Temple and that it was actually a kind of test - if you could find your way there, you were worthy of being trained. Snoke wouldn’t have known the true purpose of the map, believing it would lead directly to Luke Skywalker, and the inevitable realisation that Ben had never needed the map because he always knew where the Jedi Temple was could’ve set up the betrayal later.

The first movie would’ve ended with Rey and Finn showing up at Hogwarts, basically.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Sep 6, 2020)




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## MShadows (Sep 9, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Speaking of Jedi, they also missed a golden opportunity to export one of the finer aspects of the EU - "Not the last of the old Jedi, Luke. The first of the new."
> 
> The idea of "New Jedi" who don't make the mistakes of the older, stiff, dogmatic ones. Luke's Jedi in the EU had relationships, even got married and had kids. They sometimes used dark side powers to serve the Light. They wore normal clothes, used blasters and thermal detonators in some situations, etc. In essence, they were pragmatic and human. Not aloof and arrogant. Imagine seeing Jedi like that on the big screen.


Would’ve been a lot better.




Pilaf said:


>


And this is extremely accurate.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 9, 2020)

My favorite character after Obi was captain Needa. Even though you'd expect someone in a management position in the galactic empire to be a massive tool, he was a solid dude that took the dive for his men. Respect.


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## BlueDemon (Sep 9, 2020)

Pilaf said:


>


I need to save this 
Also, I'm enjoying Rebels more than The Clone Wars. And I think Ezra is quite ok.


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## Divine Vasto (Sep 9, 2020)

BlueDemon said:


> I need to save this
> Also, I'm enjoying Rebels more than The Clone Wars. And I think Ezra is quite ok.


Ezra is a good character

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pilaf (Sep 11, 2020)

We were all betrayed.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 11, 2020)

I don't really get this big bombshell attitude towards this, as the filmmakers were openly acknowledging this pretty early on.


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 14, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I don't really get this big bombshell attitude towards this, as the filmmakers were openly acknowledging this pretty early on.



It's also been ten months. Edgelords live off click-bait, sensationalizing everything, and blasting everything they don't like because it's how they validate their beliefs.

It's not a bomb-shell, because exploring new ideas for your story and changing your plans is part of the process of writing a story or filming a movie.

George Lucas changed a number of key details during the production of the Original Trilogy. Originally, Vader and Luke's father were two different characters, not one and the same; Luke's twin sister was a new character named Nellith, according Leigh Brackett's initial draft of the script, who was also being trained in secret to be a Jedi elsewhere in the galaxy.

Luke's father became Vader because, as it turned out, that worked better for the story, gave Vader greater reason for hunting down Luke. Leia became Luke's twin sister because he needed to wrap up the "there is another" thread established in "Empire", and he wasn't going to be able to make the next three films after "Return" like he originally wanted, and he had no room to introduce Luke's twin as a new character, leaving Leia the only option to be changed into Luke's twin.

In the case of "Rise of Skywalker", Abrams evidently decided Rey had to be from an "important lineage", so the question becomes which lineage would bring the most to the story, and would still work with what was done in "Last Jedi". 

What reveal would give Rey the biggest motivation/desire to move the story forward. What lineage would Rey's parents realistically want to hide from her and run away from, that she would only know them as junk traders, as "nobody". 

She _could_ have been a Kenobi, but that wouldn't work in a story with Palpatine's return. Having her learn she is a Palpatine, on the other hand, gives her strong personal motivation to fight Palpatine, gives her an internal conflict as she deals with the fact that the answer to "her place in all this" is that she's the main villain's granddaughter, and gives reasons for Palpatine (and Snoke, retroactively) to have such an interest in her. 

That is a basic narrative writing rule at work, as is the fact that writers can and will often change things from what they originally planned to do if they find an idea that works better. 

Star Wars would have been a much different story if Lucas had just gone with his original rough draft (_). _It would have been far different if Lucas had kept to his original twelve-film idea, never made Vader into Luke's father, and kept Nellith Skywalker as Luke's twin sister.

In the case of the Sequel Trilogy, if they had gone with Lucas' drafts for Episode VII, VIII and IX, the Sequels would have had a focus on the microbiotic world of Midi-Chlorians, and introduced the Whills. As you'll recall, people despised midi-chlorians when they were introduced in the Prequel Trilogy. Imagine those same people reacting to a Sequel Trilogy centered around them.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 14, 2020)

I don't really get why people would want Rey to be Obi-Wan's daughter or granddaughter. 

It would've added nothing. If she comes from no one, then it would tie into what was clearly intended to be the overarching themes of the first two movies. If she comes from Palpatine, at least that would explain her abilities and give a cause for drama. For her to be Luke daughter, it would've "buried" Luke's characterization even further, as now he's a deadbeat dad. 

Her being related to Han and/or Leia COULD'VE WORKED... if Ben wasn't so clearly her love interest in TLJ. 

But her being Obi-Wan's daughter/granddaughter/whatever would've added nothing outside of a probable Ewan McGregor cameo... or worse, existed solely to set-up the Obi-Wan spin-off series. But there wouldn't be any dramatic pay-off, at least conceptually. 

I still think her descending from no one of importance was the most compelling idea. My problem with the Palpatine thing is that the age differences means that there has to be parent between them and there is absolutely no room in the trilogy to develop the people who would biologically connect Palpatine and Rey. So their deaths are meaningless. 

Now Kylo Ren killing them -- as was the plan at some point -- would at least add some drama, but they obviously didn't go that route. 

It probably would've been more compelling if Rey was created the same way Snoke was. Then she would have something to really brood over, as she would wonder if she exists only as a vessel. But nope. They thought adding loving parents and having Palpatine killed them was enough, as if the audience already didn't know Palps was the ultimate evil.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 14, 2020)

only ryan johnson is to blame


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 14, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I don't really get why people would want Rey to be Obi-Wan's daughter or granddaughter.
> 
> It would've added nothing. If she comes from no one, then it would tie into what was clearly intended to be the overarching themes of the first two movies. If she comes from Palpatine, at least that would explain her abilities and give a cause for drama. For her to be Luke daughter, it would've "buried" Luke's characterization even further, as now he's a deadbeat dad.
> 
> ...



People would have wanted Rey to be Obi-Wan's daughter because, in their minds, that would make Rey "interesting" to them. That's the simplest answer I can give. It is like your belief that it could have been more compelling if she was created the same way Snoke was. Different people will have different ideas about what would make a character's development "compelling" or "interesting", or a story's plot developments "compelling" or "interesting". 

Rey's parents are there because, technically, they came first. Making the connection with Palpatine, explaining that one of Palpatine's loyalists killed them, gives an explanation for why they left Rey on Jakku and never came back for her. How that fits with "The Last Jedi's" explanation is the same as how Lucas had Obi-Wan explain away what became his lie about Anakin Skywalker: it is because what Ben saw was from Rey's point of view.

Rey saw her parents as "nobody" because, as Ben points out, they chose to be "nobody" to hide from Palpatine, and so would have never told her about her family name. 

I do agree that Rey potentially descending from no one could have been a more compelling idea, and you could still have the idea of a Dyad between her and Ben Solo. However, we already know what the backlash to that idea was when "The Last Jedi" came out.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 14, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> only ryan johnson is to blame


Jar Jar, Rian, and KK all hold equal blame.


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## MShadows (Sep 14, 2020)

For anyone who thinks the sequels were anything other than a big pile of messy shit


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## ~Gesy~ (Sep 14, 2020)

We already knew it was an unplanned revelation though


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 15, 2020)

Obi is the goat of SW but it kind of would have ruined his legacy if he had children.

Any normal man would have ravished Satine, but Obi is a true jedi in every sense. He never put himself before being a jedi or maintaining his crisp beard.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 15, 2020)

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/liam-neeson-star-wars-backlash-162329744.html

I just wanted to throw out there, because I remember getting into that debate with the guy who insisted that there wasn't much of a prequel backlash until Redlettermedia apparently convinced everyone they sucked years later, but McGregor and Neeson -- even though they defend and like the movies -- acknowledge that they weren't very well liked back then. 

that is still the most surreal debate I've ever been involved in. Not a hostile or unpleasant one, just very strange.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 15, 2020)

i like the prequels more than the OT

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MartialHorror (Sep 15, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> i like the prequels more than the OT



I admire your honesty.

I don't care for the prequels, but 'Yoda Vs Palpatine' might be my favorite Star Wars fight scene.


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## Divine Vasto (Sep 15, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> i like the prequels more than the OT


Same


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 16, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> I admire your honesty.
> 
> I don't care for the prequels, but 'Yoda Vs Palpatine' might be my favorite Star Wars fight scene.



mine was obi vs maul

The prequels just had more of an emotional investment for me. I also didn't get attached to several things from the OT. I can assume that its a result of modern films and tv reusing so many elements from the OT. Han Solo wasn't so badass, Darth Vader was great but nothing new. i dont get how Carie Fisher was a sex symbol. The ending of ESB... I never had a chance to enjoy that, I liked ROTJ more . I can go on. I still like the OT a lot and if I judge just based on creativity then they're some of the greatest films ever obviously. A new hope is probably my fav film of the franchise or ROTS depending on my mood. I'm also heavily influenced by the clone wars.series.


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## Mider T (Sep 16, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> i like the prequels more than the OT


Me too.  Been saying this since before the NT and Episode I was looked at like the antichrist.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 16, 2020)

Anakin was a lot better than luke. Luke was a very "safe" main character. While Anakin was something Ive never seen before... something like "what if the main character was a massive fuk up?" Being beautiful and talented can only get you so far in life. The guy was arrogant, self entitled, insecure, paranoid, etc. So close to everything he wanted (family and duty) and could have had it if he made better choices. Thats why I like the ending of TLJ with Hayden Christensen's force ghost because while the ending is very wholesome already, it adds some relief to see him back with the people who love him.


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## Pilaf (Sep 17, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> mine was obi vs maul



It's the most important duel in Star Wars, in fact.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 17, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> It's the most important duel in Star Wars, in fact.


Nah sorry but it's vastly overrated.


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## MShadows (Sep 18, 2020)

Obi-Wan vs Maul is Top 3 SW duels. The choreography was amazing.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 18, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Obi-Wan vs Maul is Top 3 SW duels. The choreography was amazing.


Well on that yeah it was pretty intense and you could really feel the emotion from Kenobi in his rage and also the tactics of Maul purposely toying with him and pissing him off like that one moment where he is just throwing his arms out like he is saying "Come on Brah". I personally feel the one in Rebels gets wanked out too much for it's "oh so short because it's kino" and shit when it just felt underwhelming and the dialogue beforehand felt underused and could have been longer so we could have more things brought out between them instead of the small amount we got.


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## Divine Vasto (Sep 18, 2020)

Anakin vs Obi Wan still remains best Star Wars duel


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 19, 2020)

Divine Vasto said:


> Anakin vs Obi Wan still remains best Star Wars duel



Nah.
Obi Wan beat Maul, despite Maul having the higher ground advantage.
So unlike with Anakin the underdog won.
Also the Maul fight didn't have the clunky dialog and only had body language to show their emotions.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 19, 2020)

Obi is the type of sportsman that reviews his fights and continuously improves. When he countered Maul in PM, he also instinctively learned never to fall for his own tactics. He must have taught Anakin the same principles, but he didn't lesson about having the high ground

Reactions: Like 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 19, 2020)

Obi-Wan was mostly losing the fight and on the defensive until he got the higher ground which is why he had it won by than since his fighting style was best in that position.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 20, 2020)

this shot in ESB was sexy af


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## MShadows (Sep 20, 2020)

Speaking of Maul, was Obi-Wan's jumping over him just so fast that he couldn't follow or was he just spacing out like an idiot? Never really understood what happened there.


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## Divine Vasto (Sep 20, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Speaking of Maul, was Obi-Wan's jumping over him just so fast that he couldn't follow or was he just spacing out like an idiot? Never really understood what happened there.


Plot my dear friend


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## MShadows (Sep 20, 2020)

Divine Vasto said:


> Plot my dear friend


So the latter...


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## Divine Vasto (Sep 20, 2020)

But realistic answer, Kenobi was probably too fast


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 20, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Speaking of Maul, was Obi-Wan's jumping over him just so fast that he couldn't follow or was he just spacing out like an idiot? Never really understood what happened there.


If you look at Maul's face he changes from smiling to looking concerned right before Obi-Wan pulled Qui-Gon's saber from behind him as he jumped to get it in mid-air so it could be argued that Maul was distracted for a moment thinking that something was behind him which would have let his guard down for just one second which was enough to allow Obi-Wan to bypass him and, literally, get the jump on him.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 20, 2020)

But forget that reason, this is the true CANON reason for Maul's defeat.


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## Divine Vasto (Sep 20, 2020)

ANYONE Obi Wan fights: it’s over Obi Wan! I have the high ground!
Obi Wan: I AM the high ground


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 21, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Speaking of Maul, was Obi-Wan's jumping over him just so fast that he couldn't follow or was he just spacing out like an idiot? Never really understood what happened there.



Dude.....

Martial artists spend hours fighting and perfecting combos that it eventually becomes entered into their minds like a computer recording sequences. Every punch, kick, grab, etc. The mind memorizes these rhythms so perfectly that it can replicate or react to any complex pattern of assault. My best friend is an amateur mma fighter that in his 17th fight, he took on a guy that in the first 10 seconds his foe tried a fake jab, was blocked, but spun around and knocked my friend unconscious with the same elbow. Its hard to describe really. My friend had never in his life seen that and lost by KO. After that loss, it never catches him off guard during rehearsals. The same instance of mental processing occurred in Maul's mind. Obi force jumped behind him and grabbed Qui Gon's lightsaber in one moment for the KO. Maul's mind was paralyzed, it was so unexpected he had no counter for the maneuver. Sidious trained Maul ever since he was a baby (I believe), and they must have never gone through such a scenario. But if anyone were to duplicate that he would easily slice them apart. The brain can only expect so much and it learns with every dance.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 21, 2020)

Yoda vs Sidious and the Dooku duel on the Invisible Hand in RotS are my fav fights

also all Grievous fights inthe 2004 Tv series


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## MShadows (Sep 21, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> Dude.....
> 
> Martial artists spend hours fighting and perfecting combos that it eventually becomes entered into their minds like a computer recording sequences. Every punch, kick, grab, etc. The mind memorizes these rhythms so perfectly that it can replicate or react to any complex pattern of assault. My best friend is an amateur mma fighter that in his 17th fight, he took on a guy that in the first 10 seconds his foe tried a fake jab, was blocked, but spun around and knocked my friend unconscious with the same elbow. Its hard to describe really. My friend had never in his life seen that and lost by KO. After that loss, it never catches him off guard during rehearsals. The same instance of mental processing occurred in Maul's mind. Obi force jumped behind him and grabbed Qui Gon's lightsaber in one moment for the KO. Maul's mind was paralyzed, it was so unexpected he had no counter for the maneuver. Sidious trained Maul ever since he was a baby (I believe), and they must have never gone through such a scenario. But if anyone were to duplicate that he would easily slice them apart. The brain can only expect so much and it learns with every dance.


That makes sense I guess. It's the most logical explanation I've heard so far.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Sep 21, 2020)

MShadows said:


> That makes sense I guess. It's the most logical explanation I've heard
> so far.



Better than my rationalization of Maul fucking up by playing with Obi-wan since he lost his weapon and not cutting him down mid jump.
Than being shocked when he took Qui-gon's lightsaber that he forgot about and then being cut down in that moment of being stunned at the realization of his mistake.


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## BlueDemon (Sep 21, 2020)

At the same time, expert martial artists should be flexible enough so something like that wouldn't catch them off-guard. Also, we're talking experienced Sith Apprentice in a science fantasy universe here, not amateur MMA fighter.
So no, I don't really think it's a good rationalization.


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## MartialHorror (Sep 21, 2020)

I think you guys are over-thinking it. 

Lucas just had a dramatic idea for killing him off... and seemingly forgot about it when a similar scenario happened in Revenge of the Sith.

It's not like Star Wars has ever been known for having a realistic depiction of sword fighting. Just look at the original duel between Obi Wan and Darth Vader. 

I remember people criticizing Kylo Ren's lightsaber when it was first revealed. I actually wondered why all light sabers don't have them, as it seems to easy for the blade to slide down and chop off some hands. But because it was more 'realistic' in that way, it seemed over thought out, as now it's almost as if the movie is drawing attention to how that doesn't happen more often.


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## Gunners (Sep 21, 2020)

BlueDemon said:


> At the same time, expert martial artists should be flexible enough so something like that wouldn't catch them off-guard. Also, we're talking experienced Sith Apprentice in a science fantasy universe here, not amateur MMA fighter.
> So no, I don't really think it's a good rationalization.



People get caught slipping. When you're fighting with swords, the consequences are going to be severe. Choreography aside, it makes sense and contributes towards the bitterness Maul displayed. 

Funnily enough, it is also ties into the way he died. Thinking Kenobi would move way and getting struck down.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 21, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> It's not like Star Wars has ever been known for having a realistic depiction of sword fighting. Just look at the original duel between Obi Wan and Darth Vader.
> .



That was only because the lightsaber props were too fragile for practical sword fighting. The only had a few and broke a couple i believe. They weren't even durable and the glow was only achieved by coloring the film strips individually by pen


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## MartialHorror (Sep 21, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> That was only because the lightsaber props were too fragile for practical sword fighting. The only had a few and broke a couple i believe. They weren't even durable and the glow was only achieved by coloring the film strips individually by pen



And maybe because one of the combatants was really old? 

my point was, people just went with it. I grew up in a karate household, so I have certain pet peeves with action scenes, like Obi Wan turning his back on Vader in their duel. But it's the drama of their fight that makes it work, not the choreography. I actually don't like the fight scenes of the prequels that much despite the improved effects and choreography, because most of the battles seem like they're all about the effects and choreography, not the drama -- so the pet peeves pop out more to me.


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 22, 2020)

MartialHorror said:


> And maybe because one of the combatants was really old?
> 
> my point was, people just went with it. I grew up in a karate household, so I have certain pet peeves with action scenes, like Obi Wan turning his back on Vader in their duel. But it's the drama of their fight that makes it work, not the choreography. I actually don't like the fight scenes of the prequels that much despite the improved effects and choreography, because most of the battles seem like they're all about the effects and choreography, not the drama -- so the pet peeves pop out more to me.



fair enough


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## Mael (Sep 30, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (Sep 30, 2020)

ah yes TLJ storyline where the lady didn't tell the crew her plan and they started a mutiny 

Just another closet sociopath in a management position that refuses to admit shes wrong in a situation. Why this film glorifies such a hypocrite is beyond me. Meanwhile, Captain Chad Needa in ESB is a real representation that leaders should aspire to.


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## Mael (Oct 1, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> ah yes TLJ storyline where the lady didn't tell the crew her plan and they started a mutiny
> 
> Just another closet sociopath in a management position that refuses to admit shes wrong in a situation. *Why this film glorifies such a hypocrite is beyond me*. Meanwhile, Captain Chad Needa in ESB is a real representation that leaders should aspire to.


It's simpler than you think.

She has a vagina.  That's why she's glorified.  It's how Rey was more OP than a Primarch.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 5, 2020)

I finally got around to watching this because of Mandalorian renewing some SW interest 

it was *very* rushed, Sidious return was garbled
but some action looked nice
and I really liked the ~concept of Force dyad, and how it was executed visually with the whole "spatially apart and yet can physically interact with each other"

 Reylo wasnt that bad really

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Optimistic 1 | Old 1


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## Pilaf (Dec 6, 2020)

Rey and Finn would have made far more sense as a couple, as would Finn being a Jedi, too. Why not have two Jedi? Or more? That's more lightsaber toys to sell. This entire trilogy feels like someone filmed the first draft of a script with no refinement.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 6, 2020)

these movie novelisations have always been good

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Natalija (Dec 6, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Rey and Finn would have made far more sense as a couple, as would Finn being a Jedi, too. Why not have two Jedi? Or more? That's more lightsaber toys to sell. This entire trilogy feels like someone filmed the first draft of a script with no refinement.


Preach.

But we have Mando, so I will ignore anything else exists


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## Kisame3rd14 (Dec 6, 2020)

Pilaf said:


> Rey and Finn would have made far more sense as a couple, as would Finn being a Jedi, too. Why not have two Jedi? Or more? That's more lightsaber toys to sell. This entire trilogy feels like someone filmed the first draft of a script with no refinement.


They had that in episode 2, spoilers: it sucked.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 2


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Dec 6, 2020)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## Cichy (Dec 6, 2020)

Ray trained at least for a year tho.

Reactions: Old 2


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## Pilaf (Dec 6, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> They had that in episode 2, spoilers: it sucked.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 6, 2020)

Episode 2's problem had nothing to do with there being multiple Jedi anyway. It had to with the poorly written and poorly developed main character and the romance, which was even worse in the Sequels anyway.


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## Pilaf (Dec 6, 2020)

This is now an AOTC appreciation thread.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Cichy (Dec 6, 2020)

Attack of the Clones is still the worst Star Wars movie.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1 | Disagree 6


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 6, 2020)

Cichy said:


> Attack of the Clones is still the worst Star Wars movie.


I'd watch that movie 10 times before I see Rise of Skywalker again.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Neutral 1


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## Lord Stark (Dec 6, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> i like the prequels more than the OT


Late af, but same esp with TCWs as a companion series.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Dec 6, 2020)

I dunno if I'd go that far. But I enjoy them more than most purist.  They're entertaining to me!


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## Cichy (Dec 6, 2020)

~Gesy~ said:


> I'd watch that movie 10 times before I see Rise of Skywalker again.


Funny, because I feel the exact opposite.

Attack of the Clones half of the time puts me to sleep and other half makes me unconfortable due to the awful lot of cringe.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 6, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> these movie novelisations have always been good



They do, indeed. One of the big problems with J.J. Abrams as a director is that, I think, he has a tendency to just put stuff in movies without bothering to explain things, and let other people fill in the blanks later.

For instance, it took a comic book to explain why Khan in _Into Darkness _looked like Benedict Cumberbatch rather than his original appearance. 

It is still a good movie, but the flaws in Abram's story-telling are apparent.

Reactions: Old 1


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## OLK (Dec 6, 2020)

Cichy said:


> Funny, because I feel the exact opposite.
> 
> Attack of the Clones half of the time puts me to sleep and other half makes me unconfortable due to the awful lot of cringe.


Everybody used to hate the prequels, and always mocked how hammy they were. ROTS had a mixed reception
Nowadays people seem to love em


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## Cichy (Dec 6, 2020)

OLK said:


> Everybody used to hate the prequels, and always mocked how hammy they were. ROTS had a mixed reception
> Nowadays people seem to love em


It's probably a mix of nostalgia and The Clone Wars tv show making people more interested in that era. 

I wouldn't be surprised if in 10+ years people discovered that sequels are also "not as bad" even tho they also have their own fair share of problems.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 6, 2020)

Cichy said:


> It's probably a mix of nostalgia and The Clone Wars tv show making people more interested in that era.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if in 10+ years people discovered that sequels are also "not as bad" even tho they also have their own fair share of problems.


We already went through this and the answer is a big no as this trilogy failed to garner as much new fans and had a far more detrimental effect on the franchise as a whole where as the Prequels at least did the opposite and brought newer fans both young and old and ushered in a whole bunch of successful multi media products with video games, toys, book, and comics.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Cichy (Dec 6, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> We already went through this and the answer is a big no as this trilogy failed to garner as much new fans and had a far more detrimental effect on the franchise as a whole where as the Prequels at least did the opposite and brought newer fans both young and old and ushered in a whole bunch of successful multi media products with video games, toys, book, and comics.


Lol what? The prequels didn't bring shit, when they came out most people hated it including me. It's only thanks to more competent writers of the EU that the era didn't turn into a complete disaster. If Lucasfilm executives have any senses left they will do the same with the sequel era. Hire some competent writters that know their shit and try to make good stories placed in sequels timeframe. From what I've heard the Kylo Ren comics were received pretty well, so it's not impossible.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Lord Stark (Dec 6, 2020)

I just find the sequels to be boring setting wise.  The Prequels gave us Kamino, Coruscant, Kashyyk, Naboo, and other really cool locations that allowed you to escape and delve into a futuristic scape.  Even the OT had Cloud City. There is not one memorable setting in the sequel trilogy. The only exceptions were the Casino planet but even that was ruined by the fact that it was so devoid of plot the excursion sucked, and Hosnian Prime which was obliterated 5 seconds after seeing it. 

Its a space fantasy, I want cool locations to escape to not Tatooine 2.0.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Pilaf (Dec 6, 2020)

Cichy said:


> Attack of the Clones is still the worst Star Wars movie.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Kisame3rd14 (Dec 6, 2020)

Star Wars never had a good movie to begin with, they’re entertaining popcorn flicks.

Edit: And shoutout to the mod of this subsection that removed my post where I defensively took two people to school but not the initial insult, that’s real objective moderation.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Old 1


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## Pilaf (Dec 6, 2020)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Star Wars never had a good movie to begin with, they’re entertaining popcorn flicks.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## OLK (Dec 6, 2020)

The first two were well made, space fantasy popcorn flicks. Basically like modern Marvel movies
ROTJ was way more goofy, most likely to be accessible to more kids, and suffered from it, but the main Luke/Vader stuff was still good

The prequels were when Lucas tried to be deep, and it just wasn't there. 
The sequels had no idea what they wanted to be, and suffered for it

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Kisame3rd14 (Dec 6, 2020)

OLK said:


> The first two were well made, space fantasy popcorn flicks. Basically like modern Marvel movies
> ROTJ was way more goofy, most likely to be accessible to more kids, and suffered from it, but the main Luke/Vader stuff was still good
> 
> The prequels were when Lucas tried to be deep, and it just wasn't there.
> The sequels had no idea what they wanted to be, and suffered for it


This is a pretty accurate summary.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 6, 2020)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> ah yes TLJ storyline where the lady didn't tell the crew her plan and they started a mutiny
> 
> Just another closet sociopath in a management position that refuses to admit shes wrong in a situation. Why this film glorifies such a hypocrite is beyond me. Meanwhile, Captain Chad Needa in ESB is a real representation that leaders should aspire to.



Oh, you mean like how Poe _also _didn't tell anyone his own plans until right before he started a mutiny _against a superior officer_, and it was _his _failed plan that had actual consequences and deaths when it failed?

Or is this just another form of shifting the blame to anyone you have irrational biases against?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Old 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 6, 2020)

Cichy said:


> Lol what? The prequels didn't bring shit, when they came out most people hated it including me. It's only thanks to more competent writers of the EU that the era didn't turn into a complete disaster. If Lucasfilm executives have any senses left they will do the same with the sequel era. Hire some competent writters that know their shit and try to make good stories placed in sequels timeframe. From what I've heard the Kylo Ren comics were received pretty well, so it's not impossible.


"Didn't bring shit" Wrong, not only did they all do well at the box office (ROTS actually did far better than it's previous film unlike ROS to TLJ) but the very fact they sold well on both merchandise and have gotten more recognition nowdays. Just because the irrational haters of the Prequels screamed louder does not change the fact they did well financially on both fronts. The Sequels on the other hand only did worse after every film and the side films got so bad Solo was the first SW film to outright bomb at the Box Office. It's merchandise did awful to the point it helped contribute to major companies like Toys R Us closing down and Galaxy Edge has all been a billion dollar disaster. Everything else is just doing worse than it was back in the 2000s like video games, comics and books.

"Kylo Ren comics were received pretty well" Based on nothing as I have heard only mockery over it's retcons to Snoke and Kylo's past and it sure as hell is not selling well compared to the Dark Horse days of Star Wars comics.

EDIT also Kisama pls all you did was further make a fool out of yourself and if anything the mod came in to save face for you. Quit your crying, you don't even like this series anyway

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame3rd14 (Dec 6, 2020)

I didn’t know being a fan of a series meant complaining about it for years on end, I guess I’m going about my entertainment the wrong way.

Reactions: Old 1


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## Cichy (Dec 6, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> "Didn't bring shit" Wrong, not only did they all do well at the box office (ROTS actually did far better than it's previous film unlike ROS to TLJ) but the very fact they sold well on both merchandise and have gotten more recognition nowdays. Just because the irrational haters of the Prequels screamed louder does not change the fact they did well financially on both fronts. The Sequels on the other hand only did worse after every film and the side films got so bad Solo was the first SW film to outright bomb at the Box Office. It's merchandise did awful to the point it helped contribute to major companies like Toys R Us closing down and Galaxy Edge has all been a billion dollar disaster. Everything else is just doing worse than it was back in the 2000s like video games, comics and books.
> 
> "Kylo Ren comics were received pretty well" Based on nothing as I have heard only mockery over it's retcons to Snoke and Kylo's past and it sure as hell is not selling well compared to the Dark Horse days of Star Wars comics.


What Solo has to do with this? It's not a sequel, it's a spin off movie and I didn't even mention it.

I don't think the money that the movie made neccecarily has to reflect quality, but if you want to compare it then sequels were still a bigger financial success then the prequels.

If we include the production costs episodes I-III made around 2.2$ billion in total.
And the sequels made roughly 3.5-3.6$ billion. 

Out of those six movies Attack of the Clones actually made the least.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## MartialHorror (Dec 6, 2020)

Oh shit, people are still having these discussions nearly a year later. Fun.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 6, 2020)

Cichy said:


> Hire some competent writters that know their shit and try to make good stories placed in sequels timeframe. From what I've heard the Kylo Ren comics were received pretty well, so it's not impossible.


The novel _Bloodlines _is also a good addition_, _from my experience reading it. It goes into the origins of the First Order, and even shows the consequences to Leia's public image when the identity of Darth Vader as her biological father comes out.

Right now, however, they're shifting their focus to a new era in the timeline, the High Republic era, so I'm looking forward to seeing how that project will turn out.



Kisame3rd14 said:


> I didn’t know being a fan of a series meant complaining about it for years on end, I guess I’m going about my entertainment the wrong way.


To each his own, though I don't think complaining about something not going the way you want for years on end is a healthy mindset.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Old 1


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## Divine Vasto (Dec 6, 2020)

Prequels > originals for me. Fight me

Reactions: Agree 1 | Old 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 6, 2020)

Cichy said:


> What Solo has to do with this? It's not a sequel, it's a spin off movie and I didn't even mention it.
> 
> I don't think the money that the movie made neccecarily has to reflect quality, but if you want to compare it then sequels were still a bigger financial success then the prequels.
> 
> ...


I used Solo ad an example of how much worse the Sequals and Disney SW is doing in general compared to the Prequels sherlock, try to keep up.

Since when are we talking about quality? You're the one going on about the Sequels following the same path as the Prequels and I am straight up telling you why that is not happening because while it's haters were vocal it still did well all around FINANCIALLY which is why it made lots of money because it hit well with younger audiences. The Sequels by comparison only kept dropping until the last one underperformed so badly a cheap ass R-rated film like Joker made more money than it. It's merchandise flopped and various statistics show it doing worse with young kids, especially boys who were the main consumers and fans of the franchise.

"If we include the production costs episodes I-III made around 2.2$ billion in total.
And the sequels made roughly 3.5-3.6$ billion"
Your equation is flawed by the fact you are confusing making a billion in 1999-2005 to making a billion in the 2010s. Inflation alone makes that moot and you are heavily underestimating not only the production cost but the distribution cost of the Sequels such as their failure to try to capture the Chinese audience which was a disaster. Besides we do not even know the total amount of tickets sold for the Prequels since it's largest amount came internationally and we only know the tickets sold domestically and again you ignore the biggest reason your "Sequel nostalgia" will not work is its alienation of the core audience of young boys who cared less to watch or buy merch sold for the Sequels, hence the franchise being in a downhill slump overall. Also ignoring that even if they slightly sold more (something you should not take at face value considering Disney was getting into hot shit with South Korea for forcing ROS in theaters) TLJ took the biggest drop in the franchise's history which has effected it to this very day with everything going downhill and not recovering unlike the Prequels which did with ROTS.


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## Cichy (Dec 6, 2020)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I used Solo ad an example of how much worse the Sequals and Disney SW is doing in general compared to the Prequels sherlock, try to keep up.


Ah yes, trying to prove that a trylogy of movies is not doing well, by using as an example a movie that is not part of this trylogy. That totally makes sense. 




NostalgiaFan said:


> Since when are we talking about quality? You're the one going on about the Sequels following the same path as the Prequels and I am straight up telling you why that is not happening because while it's haters were vocal it still did well all around FINANCIALLY which is why it made lots of money because it hit well with younger audiences. The Sequels by comparison only kept dropping until the last one underperformed so badly a cheap ass R-rated film like Joker made more money than it. It's merchandise flopped and various statistics show it doing worse with young kids, especially boys who were the main consumers and fans of the franchise.


And I'm telling you that even if we include the drop those movies still did financially much better then the prequels.



NostalgiaFan said:


> Your equation is flawed by the fact you are confusing making a billion in 1999-2005 to making a billion in the 2010s. Inflation alone makes that moot and you are heavily underestimating not only the production cost but the distribution cost of the Sequels such as their failure to try to capture the Chinese audience which was a disaster.


Doesn't matter.
If you want you can use a basic non-inflation affected ratio like the revenue from investment and the result still will be the same. The sequels were overall a better investment then the prequels. The numbers don't lie.



NostalgiaFan said:


> Besides we do not even know the total amount of tickets sold for the Prequels since it's largest amount came internationally and we only know the tickets sold domestically


Don't know who told you this, but it's a lie. You can easily find all the data for international sales of those movies.



NostalgiaFan said:


> and again you ignore the biggest reason your "Sequel nostalgia" will not work is its alienation of the core audience of young boys who cared less to watch or buy merch sold for the Sequels, hence the franchise being in a downhill slump overall.


Like I said, the prequel nostalgia would never be successful if not for well done EU projects like The Clone Wars tv shows, old Battlefront games etc. On their own those movies would never defend themselves without this follow up. 

If the sequel trylogy truelly allienated young boys on a massive scale like you claim then none of those movies would make as big of a money as they did. Making over a billion $ in box office on a space fantasy action flick is impossible without a large young male audience.

Reactions: Old 1


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 6, 2020)

Cichy said:


> Ah yes, trying to prove that a trylogy of movies is not doing well, by using as an example a movie that is not part of this trylogy. That totally makes sense.


I am using an example of how SW is doing in general Einstein. I don't know why you seem to think the people who "grew up" with the Sequels are gonna suddenly forget the Side movies existed when they were released right in between them. Rouge One made at least a billion dollars (ironically enough it was considered underperformed by Disney) and it was only marginally surpassed by ROS. Which says something when your final mainline film is doing barely better than your first side film. If people are somehow going to remember the Sequels about as well as the Prequels according to your logic, why the hell did they lead to other SW films bombing and the final Sequel doing far worse than the others?


Cichy said:


> And I'm telling you that even if we include the drop those movies still did financially much better then the prequels.


Wrong. TFA made 780 mill in net profits, TLJ had only a net profit of 500 mill and ROS an even smaller 300 mill. All Five films which includes both the sequels and the side films are stated to have only made 1.8 billion so your 3.5-3.6 billion for only the sequels is laughably off.


Cichy said:


> Doesn't matter.
> If you want you can use a basic non-inflation affected ratio like the revenue from investment and the result still will be the same. The sequels were overall a better investment then the prequels. The numbers don't lie.


You have given zero sources to show why. Any news or info on the Sequel films will show they made less than 2 bill in profit much less 3 and you are ignoring the factors of young kids moving away for the franchise which will hurt any chance of a "nostalgia revival" you so hope for.


Cichy said:


> Don't know who told you this, but it's a lie. You can easily find all the data for international sales of those movies.


Show me where any site shows the number of tickets sold for every Prequel film, and I do mean Tickets, not money because Tickets by themselves determine how many actually went and saw a film, not just the money that went into buying to see them.


Cichy said:


> Like I said, the prequel nostalgia would never be successful if not for well done EU projects like The Clone Wars tv shows, old Battlefront games etc. On their own those movies would never defend themselves without this follow up.


And you have jack shit to support this because most of the Prequel memes came about from the films themselves, ROTS mostly, but the others as well. Even back than ROTS was seen as "the only good Prequel" and for years had an 8 on sites like IMBD through the user scores and still has a score of 7.5 along with sites like Metacritic being around the same with it's user scores. The only people going around pretending that no one like the films themselves are you mindless haters who confused Red Letter Media and other loud internet personalities as the voice of the fandom when most of them did not care which is why ROTS increased in not only ticket sells but merchandise as well because kids and teens both liked the films and therefore wanted to actually buy the shit that was made from it. So naturally they grew up still liking them and that is what caused the Prequels to get popular again, the Sequels failed at this which is why they are not getting as much attention from kids and why they will not care for them as they grow up.


Cichy said:


> If the sequel trylogy truelly allienated young boys on a massive scale like you claim then none of those movies would make as big of a money as they did.


They didn't, which is what you are blind about. TLJ took the biggest drop of any SW movie, ROS went down even further, and the toys and other merchandise went down the shitter. The Parks themselves provide even more of an indication of how badly the Sequels have done to alienate the younger audience. Even some MSM new sites have stated this so it's not just some hypothesis of mine

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-struggling-to-win-over-the-marvel-generation


Cichy said:


> Making over a billion $ in box office on a space fantasy action flick is impossible without a large young male audience.


Your assumption that making a billion means anything nowadays is why you have no clue what you are talking about. Newsflash, breaking a billion at all is what any competent blockbuster does nowadays and even R-Rated flicks not allowed for kiddies like Joker can make a billion and that one was not even shown in China. Sorry to say this bud but the majority of people even going to see these last two Sequel films were people already old enough to form their own opinion and even than with how Disney got caught for messing with theaters by the Koreans it only means even those profits are disputable as an example of regular people going in to watch these flicks.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Disagree 1


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