# Current Most 'Overhyped' Character



## Shazam (Jun 18, 2019)

When you vote give a *recent*  example of why you made your choice 

I will list a group of character to be voted on

If I miss anyone make a statement alluding to it


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## JayK (Jun 18, 2019)

Jiraiya as always

What's the point of this thread?


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## Shazam (Jun 18, 2019)

JayK said:


> Jiraiya as always
> 
> What's the point of this thread?



What's the point of your post if your going to ignore stips? 

Give a recent example of why you think this?


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## JayK (Jun 18, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Give a recent example of why you think this?


Jiraiya can react to V2 A

Jiraiya wins against Pain in the rain village with knowledge

Jiraiya is equal to Itachi

using trash ass databook stats while also saying they only apply to base of a character (with 0 proof of that) to debate into Jiraiya's favour


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## Shazam (Jun 18, 2019)

JayK said:


> Jiraiya can react to V2 A
> 
> Jiraiya wins against Pain in the rain village with knowledge
> 
> ...




I'm always online I've never seen DB stats used for Jiraiya recently unless I missed something if so yes DB stats are trash
Jiraiya beating Pain in the Rain village isnt as bad as 3 or 4 posters saying WA MS Kakashi beats Pain flat out (yes this was recent)
Jiraiya being equal to Itachi again isnt as bad as a few posters saying Itachi is equal to Nagato, again recent
Saying Jiraiya can react to V2 A4 isnt as bad as recent posts saying 7G Gai can legitimately pressure Juunidara and is faster and more reactive than SM Minato with FTG
So where is your case against Jiraiya again?


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 18, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I'm always online I've never seen DB stats used for Jiraiya recently unless I missed something if so yes DB stats are trash
> Jiraiya beating Pain in the Rain village isnt as bad as 3 or 4 posters saying WA MS Kakashi beats Pain flat out (yes this was recent)
> Jiraiya being equal to Itachi again isnt as bad as a few posters saying Itachi is equal to Nagato, again recent
> Saying Jiraiya can react to V2 A4 isnt as bad as recent posts saying 7G Gai can legitimately pressure Juunidara and is faster and more reactive than SM Minato with FTG
> So where is your case against Jiraiya again?


Gai is legitimately one of the fastest characters in the series even without the 8th Gate. That’s the whole point of opening the Gates. To boost a persons physical stats and primarily their speed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kisaitaparadise (Jun 18, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Gai is legitimatelynone of the fastest characters in the series even without the 8th Gate. That’s the whole point of opening the Gates. To boost a persons physical stats and primarily their speed.


I would've agreed with you 10,000 times if I could...


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 18, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I'm always online I've never seen DB stats used for Jiraiya recently unless I missed something if so yes DB stats are trash
> Jiraiya beating Pain in the Rain village isnt as bad as 3 or 4 posters saying WA MS Kakashi beats Pain flat out (yes this was recent)
> Jiraiya being equal to Itachi again isnt as bad as a few posters saying Itachi is equal to Nagato, again recent
> Saying Jiraiya can react to V2 A4 isnt as bad as recent posts saying 7G Gai can legitimately pressure Juunidara and is faster and more reactive than SM Minato with FTG
> So where is your case against Jiraiya again?


What are you talking about, man?

You're right. DB stats aren't that good, but I don't think they're just completely useless.
What? MS WA Kakashi would DESTROY Pain's entire NF Career.
Don't think either of those claims are as bad as you make them sound actually.
You think SM Jiraiya can block A4? You must be out of your goddamn mind. Also a *fatigued* and weakened 7G Gai DID ON-PANEL PRESSURE a 10 Tails Jinchuuriki Madara whether you like it or not, for however short a time it was, meanwhile SM Minato with FTG ON-PANEL _with backup_ got his arm chopped off and he was kicked back before he could even FTG anywhere else. Meanwhile JJ MADS was SHOCKED at Gai several times and was canonically pushed back (however little it was). How many times do I need to repeat this until you realise a man who trained his entire life to push his limits to his body could achieve this abominable strength - what is so difficult to understand about that?



KisaitaParadise said:


> I would've agreed with you 10,000 times if I could...


Me too.

By the way that Levi picture is badass.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 18, 2019)

Everyone of those characters is wanked to a degree depending on the member.


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## Grinningfox (Jun 18, 2019)

It frankly doesn’t matter

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Jun 18, 2019)

Orochimaru by far. People always pulling this edo tensei shit to put him on a higher pedastal than he really is. his own Reanimation would actually stomp him if he were to fight them and Tobirama can use edo tensei yet Hashirama is the God of Shinobi. This should pretty much tell us what Kishimoto thinks about that argument.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Jun 18, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I'm always online I've never seen DB stats used for Jiraiya recently unless I missed something if so yes DB stats are trash
> Jiraiya beating Pain in the Rain village isnt as bad as 3 or 4 posters saying WA MS Kakashi beats Pain flat out (yes this was recent)
> Jiraiya being equal to Itachi again isnt as bad as a few posters saying Itachi is equal to Nagato, again recent
> Saying Jiraiya can react to V2 A4 isnt as bad as recent posts saying 7G Gai can legitimately pressure Juunidara and is faster and more reactive than SM Minato with FTG
> So where is your case against Jiraiya again?



Itachi may not be equal to Nagato in 1on1 combat but in a war scenario he outclasses him because he is smarter and more skilled than Nagato. There is a reason why Itachi is Sasuke's benchmark while Nagato is Naruto's. They are meant to be equals with Nagato being superior in raw power and 1on1 combat while Itachi is the more skilled fighter/better team fighter and a battle between them will always end in extreme difficulty because of that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mithos (Jun 18, 2019)

It's Kakashi. Gai close second.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

Jman as always. 
Able to react to v2 A4. 
Still on level with MS itachi after all these years. 
Beating Pain in rain village with intel. 
Beating pain of he was in Kakashi's position in konoha.
His SM being on par with Naruto's . 
Being able to use Frog kata even though it was never shown on panel or in anime, just because it's in the DB.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 19, 2019)

Kakashi, Guy was bad for a while when clowns said he can pressure Juudara anybody in Juudara's speed class/legit pressured him when went on to react to the 8 gate multiple times

But now we legitametly have guys arguing eos Kakashi is stronger than War Arc/Eos Sakura, Kakashi can contend with or beat Minato, Tobirama, Pein, Nagato, EMS Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi is as fast as 6 gated guy

What else am i missing?


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Kakashi, Guy was bad for a while when clowns said he can pressure Juudara anybody in Juudara's speed class/legit pressured him when went on to react to the 8 gate multiple times
> 
> But now we legitametly have guys arguing eos Kakashi is stronger than War Arc/Eos Sakura, Kakashi can contend with or beat Minato, Tobirama, Pein, Nagato, EMS Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi is as fast as 6 gated guy
> 
> What else am i missing?


We've discussed 8G reactions several times in another thread which made multiple people speechless. We've also established just how fast 7G Gai was and how he momentarily pressured 10 Tails Jinchuuriki Madara better than SM Edo Minato's attempt. Not sure why you think WA Kakashi can't contend with Pain. Who said Kakashi was as fast as 6G Gai? Can you find proof someone explicitly stated that? 

You're lacking debate, evidence and justification.


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## Android (Jun 19, 2019)

Kakashi by a landslide.

No other character comes close to how disgustingly overrated he is.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Jun 19, 2019)

The BD was slowly but steadily switching from Jiraya to masters wank and now the masters are the most overrated arround there.


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## Architect (Jun 19, 2019)

Tsunade/Jiraiya/Itachi


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## MarF (Jun 19, 2019)

My least favourited character is the most wanked, as usual.




>WA Kakashi above Pain




Say that again when Kakashi can do the following:

>Take on the military force of Konoha and gather intel while fighting.
>Completely wipe out Konoha.
>Defeat a High Kage tier in SM Naruto with backup + prep while being restricted and having his best abilites on cooldown.
>Take on a High Kage+ tier in Kn6, deal with it's Bijuu Dama at point blank range and defeat it.
>Rip a mountain range sized hole into the ground, suspend all the rocks in mid air and be prepared to make it even bigger.
>Still have enough chakra and life force left to revive tens of thousands of people with a technique that would kill a normal pleb when they revive a single person.

Pain did all of this back to back with no breaks in between.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (Jun 19, 2019)

Shazam said:


> If I miss anyone make a statement alluding to it


where is Tobirama?


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## Tanto (Jun 19, 2019)

Ay 4 is definitely overrated right now. In another Thread I saw ppl  that he could blitz Sage Jiraiya and that he wouldn’t be able to react

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Orochimaru by far. People always pulling this edo tensei shit to put him on a higher pedastal than he really is. his own Reanimation would actually stomp him if he were to fight them and Tobirama can use edo tensei yet Hashirama is the God of Shinobi. This should pretty much tell us what Kishimoto thinks about that argument.


I'd like to see Orochimaru try to control Hashirama and Kyuubi Minato


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> The BD was slowly but steadily switching from Jiraya to masters wank and now the masters are the most overrated arround there.


I'll entertain your notion. Show me 5 examples the masters are being overrated. 



Tanto said:


> Ay 4 is definitely overrated right now. In another Thread I saw ppl  that he could blitz Sage Jiraiya and that he wouldn’t be able to react


Don't be afraid to call me out. It's true imo - I don't see how Sage Jiraiya can react to RCM2 A4 at a fair distance when Sasuke Uchiha with MS got rag-dolled and KCM Naruto was only slightly faster as far as I could tell. What's Sage Jiraiya gonna do?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 19, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Itachi may not be equal to Nagato in 1on1 combat but in a war scenario he outclasses him because he is smarter and more skilled than Nagato.


Not the skill argument? You must be an old school Itachi fan. I haven't heard that one in years.:lol
But down to business, you know you ain't right, you know ain't right.

Nagato's efforts in the war lasted for one encounter, and his only mission was to capture Naruto and Bee. He was being controlled, and even with that in mind, he would have successfully extracted the souls from Naruto and Bee if not for Itachi. Truthfully we've already seen Nagato in a war like situation. He invaded Konoha with only Konan, and succeeded in killing hundred if not thousands; he leveled the village, and would have successfully captured Naruto if it wasn't for several pivotal moments that stopped him from doing so. In the end his assault only ended at the hands of TNJ and a Book.

Itachi may have the advantage in certain war like situation for example: The battle against Kabuto. But if Nagato was on the alliance side he would have been on the front lines. He would have likely assisted the Kages, as they were in need of the most help, and while I still don't think they would have won; Madara would have had to pull out his trump card sooner.



> There is a reason why Itachi is Sasuke's benchmark while Nagato is Naruto's.


Uh.... Nagato was never Naruto's benchmark; they don't even take the same approach to power to be considered a benchmark.

Nagato was never really a benchmark at all, and the only thing that I can think of that alludes to such was Sasuke surpassing Nagato so he could sync him the Gedo Mazo by Obito.

Naruto's benchmarks: Jiraiya, Minato, Hashirama
Sasuke's benchmarks: Orochimaro, Itachi, Madara
It's complicated, but this a more accurate depiction. The potential for Nagato being a benchmark for Sasuke, as he was destined receive the Rinnegan, was swallowed up by the revelation that Madara had them as well.



> They are meant to be equals with Nagato being superior in raw power and 1on1 combat while Itachi is the more skilled fighter/better team fighter and a battle between them will always end in extreme difficulty because of that.


Itachi is not Nagato's equal hence is why he was given a team. In a war like situation there is nothing Naruto couldn't do: he could supply chakara, heal, help multiple battlefronts via clones, and Sasuke has no answer to that. Which is why Sasuke entered the war so late. Itachi may be a better team player than Nagato, but that's entirely due to the way Nagato's abilities work. Nagato would be much better off forming his own team, and he did in the form of the six paths.

And atlas that skill argument again, which means absolutely nothing when not applied to something.(I'm more skilled than you. More skilled in what?) You see how dumb that sounds without presenting something that is tangible. Itachi is a better team player because Nagato cannot utilize his full power as a team. But I fail to see how Nagato besting Itachi in a fight borderlines extreme difficulty.

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## Jad (Jun 19, 2019)

Jiraiya

- Sage mode doesn't step up to the speeds some suggest
- No one knows how Jiraiya knocked the Pain's boss summon on its back side when he entered Sage Mode. Certainly not due to his strength like many allude, since we've seen his strength when fighting humans.
- Sensory barrier doesn't magically give him the ability to respond to fast attacks he can't keep up to begin with
- Most of his ninjutsu can be completely avoided with high enough speeds or deflected or countered
- Foodcart destroyer is laughably countered or dodged by most Kage and is mostly useful for fodder control
- Most posters have a habit of having Jiraiya execute his full moveset before the opponent can attack

Itachi

- Can beat most Kage with his base moveset.

Minato

- Legit ways to counter his FTG but apparently he can not only read opponents minds but blitzes them before they can make a thought.
- Minato is not on A & B level together - that's an outright false statement. In fact A is a challenge for Minato for the fact Minato only barely dodge and counter with inferior penetrative attacks and force. Though Minato still is the superior in most ways.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Jun 19, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I'll entertain your notion. Show me 5 examples the masters are being overrated.


-7G Gai can pressure a serious JJ Mads while even the Gokage couldn't keep up with a mere Edo Madara and SM/KCM Minato was foddered by JJs
-No one knows to practice Taijutsu outside of Gai.
-"Base" Gai's Taijutsu is the best in history while it was explicitly stated he only reach this level in the 8th gate.
-base Gai can keep up with KCM Naruto.
-Kakashi can rival 3T Obito while it was clearly stated the latter was toying with him in order to get rid of his heart's seal.
-Kakashi can follow BM Naruto's max speed.
-Only high end Kamui feats are taken into account.
etc, etc, etc

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Jun 19, 2019)

Jad said:


> Jiraiya
> 
> - Sage mode doesn't step up to the speeds some suggest
> - No one knows how Jiraiya knocked the Pain's boss summon on its back side when he entered Sage Mode. Certainly not due to his strength like many allude, since we've seen his strength when fighting humans.
> ...



To add to this, i think it's ridicolous how every named move of Jiraiya suddenly has the potential to outright beat Kage levels, just like that.

You got people mentioning every named move of his in a versus thread, like, dude it's not that every move of his is a one shot kill. We got Naruto who has a beyond S rank level move, and he still needs to pull diversion and tricks for them to be a factor. It's not how it works, Kage level battles are more complicated than that.

Instead here we hear people saying Yomi Numa is gonna outright beat people, just like that, when we know the only time it ever worked on a human opponent (who was blind and not even that strong) was when Jiraiya had prepped it in advance and because the enemy was cornered and had nowhere else to go. It's laughable to even mention a normal A rank Doton outright beating Kage levels...

Then we hear people saying Jiraiya gonna beat people with Lion's Mane, when Animal substitute trolled it in plain sight effortlessly, and this pushed Jiraiya to go higher into SM. By this fact alone, it's useless to even mention this tech being a threat to people comparable or stronger in stats than a Pain's path.

Like i swear, base Jiraiya's shown 3 normal moves on panel, and all 3 are apparently strong enough to defeat Kages just like that...

Not to mention Jiraiya's now on the same level of speed just like praised dudes like Sasuke and Kakashi, without reason, just like that...

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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

First of all, thanks for the effort 



hbcaptain said:


> -7G Gai can pressure a serious JJ Mads while even the Gokage couldn't keep up with a mere Edo Madara and SM/KCM Minato was foddered by JJs


The concept that the Gokage didn't achieve anything against Edo Madara is a myth. 

SM Minato wasn't exactly "foddered" by JJ Mads, and for whatever reason he kicked him back rather than taking his head off. It's possible SM Minato got very lucky or maybe there was some plot armour. It's possible there's a completely different explanation (such as SM Minato is just that good and JJ Madara wasn't all he was made out to be). 

Who said KCM Minato was foddered by JJs? 



hbcaptain said:


> -No one knows to practice Taijutsu outside of Gai.


No one said this. The simple fact is that characters play to their strengths, preferences and nature types. This is a pivotal notion in the series. 



hbcaptain said:


> -"Base" Gai's Taijutsu is the best in history while it was explicitly stated he only reach this level in the 8th gate.


No one said this. You're interpreting other people's words out of context. Base Gai, for instance, would lose to Minato, fairly comfortably. I think you're simply taking this out of context. 



hbcaptain said:


> -base Gai can keep up with KCM Naruto.


Completely ambiguous example. 



hbcaptain said:


> -Kakashi can rival 3T Obito while it was clearly stated the latter was toying with him in order to get rid of his heart's seal.


This is a lie. Show me a scan where 3T Obito said he was, quote, "toying with [Kakashi]". He never said this. Obito NEVER in the entire manga said he was "toying" with him. He in fact said Kakashi had many chances to kill him - that's one thing he _did_ say. 



hbcaptain said:


> -Kakashi can follow BM Naruto's max speed.


There's a difference between Shunshin and BM Naruto's top travelling speed in a linear motion. You're forgetting that Kakashi has years of experience and has mastered his Sharingan - just sounds like you're completely downplaying him. 



hbcaptain said:


> -Only high end Kamui feats are taken into account.


Uhh, please feel free to point out the "low-end" War-Arc Kamui feats and explain how important they are.


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## dergeist (Jun 19, 2019)

SM Jiraiya stomps pain arc SM Naruto, other than that underestimation he's overrated. And more than him in the overrated camp is Asspullnato.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> 7G Gai can pressure a *serious* JJ Mads


No one but you tells that.


hbcaptain said:


> No one knows to practice Taijutsu outside of Gai.


Again... Said no one ever.


hbcaptain said:


> Base" Gai's Taijutsu is the best in history while it was explicitly stated he only reach this level in the 8th gate.


Lmao.. Now you are just putting out your opinions and calling them facts. You purposefully take it out of context to sell your narrative here. Even you know that. And quite frankly it's low. 


hbcaptain said:


> base Gai can keep up with KCM Naruto.


No one but you says that.


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## Edogawa (Jun 19, 2019)

From that list, Gai obviously - pressuring JJ Madara in 7th Gate, faster than Ay, Hirudora busted V3 Susanoo etc. The usual bullshit.

Overwanked character of all time is Hashirama.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

*Jiraiya, Tsunade and Kakashi.*
I'm gonna rustle some jimmies with this one.


Jiraiya being able to immobilize the whole verse with DYN
Tsunade beating Pain or giving him a high diff fight IN THE VILLAGE.
ALL OF THEM BEING ABLE TO REACT TO V2 (an argument can be made for SM Jiraiya tho)
Base Jiraiya beating Itachi.
WA Kakakshi beating MS Sasuke or Itachi.
Kakashi beating 6POP.
SM Jiraiya beating Minato.
Tsunade can regrow her head or bodyparts.
SM Jiraiya beating SM Naruto
FKS Sasuke losing to Jiraiya
Jiraiya beating Onoki
Jiraiya solo-ing the masters
Tsunade beating Kakashi


I would have said the masters and the sannin, but I haven't seen anyone really wanking Gai or Orochimaru W/O edo tensei


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## hbcaptain (Jun 19, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> The concept that the Gokage didn't achieve anything against Edo Madara is a myth.


It was explicitly said that EMS Mads and Hashi stands on a whole another level to the point they can fodderize them whenever they want.



> SM Minato wasn't exactly "foddered" by JJ Mads, and for whatever reason he kicked him back rather than taking his head off. It's possible SM Minato got very lucky or maybe there was some plot armour. It's possible there's a completely different explanation (such as SM Minato is just that good and JJ Madara wasn't all he was made out to be).


JJ Mads effortlessly destroyed him in CQC, SM Minato couldn't move an inch an was turned into a sandbag, if he wasn't fodderized, then what's your definition of the verb "fodderize".



> Who said KCM Minato was foddered by JJs?


JJ Obito easily destroyed him in CQC.



Mad Scientist said:


> No one said this. You're interpreting other people's words out of context. Base Gai, for instance, would lose to Minato, fairly comfortably. I think you're simply taking this out of context.


There is a difference between :
-can't see a thing
-can't keep up at all
-can barely keep up
-can comfortably keep up
-loses but causes some problems
-loses with difficulty
-loses with a lot of difficulty
And "Base" Gai is clearly a fodder compared to base Minato, he can't see a thing giving his overall portrayal and the massive gates amp.
Hence's why Gai not being fodderized by someone of Minato's calibre is nothing more than a wank.



Mad Scientist said:


> Completely ambiguous example.


Gai with the 7th Gate was constantly portrayed at Kisame/Kakuzu's level, so him keeping up with KCM Naruto is an enormity of the same level of Sakura's late war feats or the Boruto Kages against Kin and Momoshiki.
A character should be seen as a whole, his level shouldn't be based on some "best feats which massively contradict all what was established all over the manga".
But, I would say it's mainly Kishi's fault who couldn't manage his manga's consistency.



Mad Scientist said:


> He in fact said Kakashi had many chances to kill him - that's one thing he _did_ say.


You're extrapolating, Kakashi only had a chance to kill him because :
1-Naruto, Bee and Gai's support.
2-he counters him well with his own Kamui
Alone, he can't do anything.
The only clear one on one fight they ever have since their childhood happened within the Kamui dimension and Obito "toyed" with him, he made him tag his heart on purpose as per canon.



Mad Scientist said:


> There's a difference between Shunshin and BM Naruto's top travelling speed in a linear motion. You're forgetting that Kakashi has years of experience and has mastered his Sharingan - just sounds like you're completely downplaying him.


Years of experience and mastering Sharingan are pointless in front of speed that's "faster than the eye can see". If MS Sasuke can't see V2 Ei, then Kakashi can't as well, let alone characters that's even faster like BM Naruto.



> There's a difference between Shunshin and BM Naruto's top travelling speed in a linear motion.


A lot say Kakashi was tracking BM Naruto's top speed, so that was a wank.

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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> Overwanked character of all time is Hashirama.


That's interesting, why do you think so?


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## Shazam (Jun 19, 2019)

Ayala said:


> To add to this, i think it's ridicolous how every named move of Jiraiya suddenly has the potential to outright beat Kage levels, just like that.
> 
> You got people mentioning every named move of his in a versus thread, like, dude it's not that every move of his is a one shot kill. We got Naruto who has a beyond S rank level move, and he still needs to pull diversion and tricks for them to be a factor. It's not how it works, Kage level battles are more complicated than that.
> 
> ...



Even if what you are saying is true it doesn't go beyond saying Kakashi can beat pain flat out or that 7G gai is above Sage Mode Minato with FTG. Not even close


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## Shazam (Jun 19, 2019)

dergeist said:


> SM Jiraiya stomps pain arc SM Naruto, other than that underestimation he's overrated. And more than him in the overrated camp is Asspullnato.



I'm online everyday off and on from morning to night and I've never seen this being said


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## Ayala (Jun 19, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Even if what you are saying is true it doesn't go beyond saying Kakashi can beat pain flat out or that 7G gai is above Sage Mode Minato with FTG. Not even close



One person saying something doesn't make me wanna consider my stance, as there are some anormalities here and there. I also never heard anyone say Gai's above Minato in general... In taijutsu yes, but not overall.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I'm online everyday off and on from morning to night and I've never seen this being said


He means that SM Jiraya can beat SM Naruto.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

Shazam said:


> that 7G gai is above Sage Mode Minato with FTG. Not even close


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## Shazam (Jun 19, 2019)

Ayala said:


> One person saying something doesn't make me wanna consider my stance, as there are some anormalities here and there. I also never heard anyone say Gai's above Minato in general... In taijutsu yes, but not overall.



It's around three or four posters


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## Edogawa (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> That's interesting, why do you think so?



-He can solo the Akatsuki.
-He can push JJ Obito to high difficulty.
-His VOTE crater is over 35,000km.
-He can stomp high tier characters.

There are lots more, but I think everyone will agree.


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## Shazam (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> He means that SM Jiraya can beat SM Naruto.



I've been called a Jiraiya wanker before and I've never even considered that notion nor have I seen anyone from The Cult say this


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> It was explicitly said that EMS Mads and Hashi stands on a whole another level to the point they can fodderize them whenever they want.
> 
> 
> JJ Mads effortlessly destroyed him in CQC, SM Minato couldn't move an inch an was turned into a sandbag, if he wasn't fodderized, then what's your definition of the verb "fodderize".
> ...


7th Gate Gai destroyed Kisame in one move.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 7th Gate Gai destroyed Kisame in one move.


Advice....
Just don't continue.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 19, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 7th Gate Gai destroyed Kisame in one move.


7th G Gai used his single-shot strongest move to defeat Kisame and he was a bad matchup for him (Taijutsu > chakra absorption).


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> 7th G Gai used his single-shot strongest move to defeat Kisame and he was a bad matchup for him (Taijutsu > chakra absorption).


He didn’t use his strongest move. He had the 8th Gate. And Kisame actually said that he had the advantage, because they were fighting in the ocean. To top it all off, Gai was fighting to capture him alive. It’s pretty clear that Gai was on another level than Kisame even without the 8th Gate.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> It was explicitly said that EMS Mads and Hashi stands on a whole another level to the point they can fodderize them whenever they want.


So you think EMS Madara could just straight up fodderize Backpack A-Onoki? 



hbcaptain said:


> JJ Mads effortlessly destroyed him in CQC, SM Minato couldn't move an inch an was turned into a sandbag, if he wasn't fodderized, then what's your definition of the verb "fodderize".


Alright, you have this one. JJ Mads fodderized SM Minato. Yet, given that the same didn't happen to Gai (no matter which way you try to swing it), this doesn't help your argument that the masters are overrated. 



hbcaptain said:


> JJ Obito easily destroyed him in CQC.


Fair enough. 



hbcaptain said:


> There is a difference between :
> -can't see a thing
> -can't keep up at all
> -can barely keep up
> ...


Be more specific. Gai himself, overall, will not be fodderized by Minato. If you mean Base Gai, then sure, he'll lose fairly quickly. 



hbcaptain said:


> Gai with the 7th Gate was constantly portrayed at Kisame/Kakuzu's level, so him keeping up with KCM Naruto is an enormity of the same level of Sakura's late war feats or the Boruto Kages against Kin and Momoshiki.
> A character should be seen as a whole, his level shouldn't be based on some "best feats which massively contradict all what was established all over the manga".
> But, I would say it's mainly Kishi's fault who couldn't manage his manga's consistency.


No he wasn't portrayed at Kisame's level (overall). 7G Gai was clearly portrayed as >> Kisame even then. 



hbcaptain said:


> You're extrapolating, Kakashi only had a chance to kill him because :
> 1-Naruto, Bee and Gai's support.
> 2-he counters him well with his own Kamui
> Alone, he can't do anything.
> The only clear one on one fight they ever have since their childhood happened within the Kamui dimension and Obito "toyed" with him, he made him tag his heart on purpose as per canon.


Doesn't change the fact you lied/hyperbolically exaggerated a statement/feat. Besides there were chances for Kakashi to kill Obito even in the other dimension (and in the earthen world again) so I don't know what you're talking about. 



hbcaptain said:


> Years of experience and mastering Sharingan are pointless in front of speed that's "faster than the eye can see". If MS Sasuke can't see V2 Ei, then Kakashi can't as well, let alone characters that's even faster like BM Naruto.


Even MS Sasuke was partially able to react to some of A's moves. I don't think you understand just how powerful Kakashi got because he mastered his Sharingan. I'll repeat this again, with a different example: there is a difference between A4 travelling at RCM2 speeds and KCM Naruto using Shunshin to evade it. You're elevating BM Naruto's travelling speed to Shunshin speeds and I have no idea why you're thinking in this manner. 



hbcaptain said:


> A lot say Kakashi was tracking BM Naruto's top speed, so that was a wank.


No it's not. Consider the above.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 19, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> He didn’t use his strongest move. He had the 8th Gate. And Kisame actually said that he had the advantage, because they were fighting in the ocean. To top it all off, Gai was fighting to capture him alive. It’s pretty clear that Gai was on another level than Kisame even without the 8th Gate.


I mean strongest move outside of the 8th gate since Gai's portrayal was built without the red gate until he unlocked it and surpassed Kakashi with it.



> To top it all off, Gai was fighting to capture him alive. It’s pretty clear that Gai was on another level than Kisame even without the 8th Gate.


Gai was "forced" to use his strongest move to capture him, as many have done so far, even with IC if their skills aren't enough they fight for the kill in order to subdue their oponent, hence's why Gai used his ultimate tehnique which he can't replicate due to drawbacks.
And both had their own advantage/desadvantages. Kisame didn't have access to Samehada, chakra absorption is useless against Taijutsu and albeit fighting inside the ocan gates vapor could repel water, meaning way less constraint compared to most fighters.
Saying Gai stands on a whole another level while he was pushed so far is both an euphemism and wank.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> I mean strongest move outside of the 8th gate since Gai's portrayal was built without the red gate until he unlocked it and surpassed Kakashi with it.
> 
> 
> Gai was "forced" to use his strongest move to capture him, as many have done so far, even with IC if their skills aren't enough they fight for the kill in order to subdue their oponent, hence's why Gai used his ultimate tehnique which he can't replicate due to drawbacks.
> ...


Kisame wasn't mortally wounded because:

1. Hirudora had to go through super shark bomb first.
2. Kisame was on high health.
3. Kisame was on moderately high chakra (there's a reason he's known as a tailless tailed beast.)
4. Hirudora had to travel through water (notice the bubbles and the shark.)
5. Gai wasn't trying to kill Kisame, only incapacitate enough to safely take hostage of him.
6. Kisame has a very tough body (as indicated by his monstrous strength).

Even after both 6G and 7G, Gai could still instantly punch Kisame in the gut and take him hostage and was prepared to fight more even after that.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 19, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> So you think EMS Madara could just straight up fodderize Backpack A-Onoki?


EMS Sasuke started to track Juubito, so a fully mattured Mads can very easily track and tag backpack A-Onoki and kill them with Susano'o.



Mad Scientist said:


> Yet, given that the same didn't happen to Gai (no matter which way you try to swing it), this doesn't help your argument that the masters are overrated.


"_A character should be seen as a whole, his level shouldn't be based on some "best feats which massively contradict all what was established all over the manga"._"



Mad Scientist said:


> Be more specific. Gai himself, overall, will not be fodderized by Minato. If you mean Base Gai, then sure, he'll lose fairly quickly.


Gai with the 7th gate is arround Kisame/Kakuzu level, so in base he is obviously a fodder who can't last one fragment of second against Minato.



Mad Scientist said:


> No he wasn't portrayed at Kisame's level (overall). 7G Gai was clearly portrayed as >> Kisame even then.


See my post above.



Mad Scientist said:


> Doesn't change the fact you lied/hyperbolically exaggerated a statement/feat.


I don't recall such a thing.



> Besides there were chances for Kakashi to kill Obito even in the other dimension (and in the earthen world again) so I don't know what you're talking about.


They were not, otherwise prove it.



Mad Scientist said:


> Even MS Sasuke was partially able to react to some of A's moves. I don't think you understand just how powerful Kakashi got because he mastered his Sharingan.


He was not, hence's why Ama' tagged the Samurai not A. Kakashi's Sharingan mastery doesn't equalize that of an Uchiha genius like Sasuke.



Mad Scientist said:


> I'll repeat this again, with a different example: there is a difference between A4 travelling at RCM2 speeds and KCM Naruto using Shunshin to evade it.


That's not what Kakashi wankers say. I'm talking about Kakashi wankers point of view not your current one which is rather fair.


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## Santoryu (Jun 19, 2019)

Jiraiya and Kimimaro recently. Some examples:


DMS Kakashi not guaranteed a win against Jiraiya 
Jiraiya might be able to 2-3 MS Kakashi's at the same time 
Kimimaro being Kage level


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> I mean strongest move outside of the 8th gate since Gai's portrayal was built without the red gate until he unlocked it and surpassed Kakashi with it.
> 
> Gai was "forced" to use his strongest move to capture him, as many have done so far, even with IC if their skills aren't enough they fight for the kill in order to subdue their oponent, hence's why Gai used his ultimate tehnique which he can't replicate due to drawbacks.
> And both had their own advantage/desadvantages. Kisame didn't have access to Samehada, chakra absorption is useless against Taijutsu and albeit fighting inside the ocan gates vapor could repel water, meaning way less constraint compared to most fighters.
> Saying Gai stands on a whole another level while he was pushed so far is both an euphemism and wank.


Gai didn’t use Hirudora to beat Kisame. That was just a bonus. He did it to stop the scroll full of intel that a Kisame had given to one of his sharks.

Kisame having his sword means nothing. Base Gai was capable of taking away his sword. Even if he tried to heal with it after Hirudora, Gai could just beat him senseless afterwards. Gai being on another level is a fact. Every time he brought out the Gates he ended his fights with Kisame. When he used the 6th Gate, Lee, Neji and Tenten said it was game over. He blitzed Kisame and defeated him with one move. The same thing happened against 7th Gate Gai.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Jiraiya and Kimimaro recently. Some examples:
> 
> *
> DMS Kakashi not guaranteed a win against Jiraiya
> *



*Who the fuck said that?*


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## Santoryu (Jun 19, 2019)

MarF said:


> >WA Kakashi above Pain
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it's no worse than saying Itachi >Pain which several posters claim.

The recent pro Kimimaro and Jiraiya claims are much worse than Kakashi >Pain.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Jiraiya and Kimimaro recently. Some examples:
> 
> 
> DMS Kakashi not guaranteed a win against Jiraiya
> ...


Ha. That Kimimaro part was me I’m pretty sure. Given how nerfed he was and the hype that he got, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if he was. Not a strong one mind you. Probably closer to Hidan Level.


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## Santoryu (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> *Who the fuck said that?*


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## Santoryu (Jun 19, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Ha. That Kimimaro part was me I’m pretty sure. Given how nerfed he was and the hype that he got, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if he was. Not a strong one mind you. Probably closer to Hidan Level.



no it's not just you
several posters make the claim


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## hbcaptain (Jun 19, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Gai didn’t use Hirudora to beat Kisame. That was just a bonus. He did it to stop the scroll full of intel that a Kisame had given to one of his sharks.


It was not stated anywhere that Gai could defeat Kisame with the 6th gate and Kisame was very confident about ripping him appart afte seeing Asa Kujaku "twice".



Lee-Sensei said:


> Base Gai was capable of taking away his sword


30% Kisame "defeated" base Gai in a pure Taijutsu battle while ninjutsu/Suiton is his main point.



Lee-Sensei said:


> Every time he brought out the Gates he ended his fights with Kisame.


He was forced to use Asa Kujaku to beat 30% Kisame in a neutral location with Taijutsu being a bad matchup to chakra absorption and was forced to use Hirudora to beat 100% Kisame, both having their advantage/disadvantages.
Gai gradually used his best assets proportionnaly to which version of Kisame he was fighting.



Lee-Sensei said:


> Lee, Neji and Tenten said it was game over


Against "Shoten" Kisame whose Gai is the worst matchup.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 19, 2019)

JayK said:


> Jiraiya can react to V2 A


SM Naruto clone reacted to V2 A3 and guys like Suigetsu easily reacted to V1 A4. So whats the problem ? Why a sage not able to react him when he has a motion barrier big enough to cover a huge area ?

And no one says that like reacting him in cqc or on the same ground. Check your info.



JayK said:


> Jiraiya wins against Pain in the rain village with knowledge


Manga statement. Its a hard case to debate but there is a possibility some could saw high some could saw as really tiny. But there is.



JayK said:


> Jiraiya is equal to Itachi


Manga statement. And its not a equivalent of being "wanked" at all.  Funny


The wanking could be something like;

"WA Kakashi > Pain" or "Kisame = Nagato" or "Itachi & Kisame low diffs SM Hashirama" or " Haku and Kimimaro can take down any mid kage" You guys dont know what the real wank is  Anything that you dont like is looks like a wank to you 




Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Still on level with MS itachi after all these years.


Still ? Why what changed about him. His P1 portrayal is like he is >= Itachi his P2 portrayal like He is <= Pain (under fair fight) and then obito collabs all of these with a sentence like "he lived aup to his reputation" End of discussion 

Do you really think considering Itachi = Jiraiya is a wank for Jiraiya then all this forum is nuts and denying manga 

Learn real wank from Troyse or Santoryu guys then come talk to me 



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Still on level with MS itachi after all these years.
> Beating Pain in rain village with intel.
> Beating pain of he was in Kakashi's position in konoha.


All 3 are basicly adressing  manga statements 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well about the topic;

Sadly Masters (Specialy kakashi) are take this crown for last 1 year but specialy for last 3-4 month ı see.

I love both of'em. Specialy kakashi is one my favorite. Both of these dudes are beasts and bad ass persons.

But their all manga portrayal, reputation, feats and declaration via happenings or acheivements puts'em under Mid Kage Section (at most w/o 8th Gate and DMS) .

But people still compare'em with High kages like its his casual motive. Kakashi always described and portrayed as a insignificant one compare to hokage caliber ninjas but he was so special cuz he was so damn bad ass and resourceful even with his limitations and realy shine as a support thru all series.

But now people try to turn him into a some DBz char  

 Sadly ı agree with this sentence


Android said:


> No other character comes close to how disgustingly overrated he is.




And about Jiraiya wanking. I never saw (at least consistently) Jiraiya compared with Nagato or Obito, or Minato or EMS Sasuke or KCM Naruto and anything above this always considered as "impossible wet dreams" for Jiraiya's caliber chars by general sannin supporters.

Only think that could hurt some part of the NBD could be putting Jiraiya against Itachi, Edo Kages (previous), Masters. And Most hurtful for fanbois are Pain, Killer bee, SM Kabuto etc, etc.

Well all of these characters are in Jiraiya's reach by manga portrayal, stats, feats, reputation, acheivements and scaling.

His farest reach could be Pain, Killer Bee and SM Kabuto imo. These are the ones that Jiraiya forcing his way thru by little chances

His fair reach is Itachi, Muu, Prime Ônoki, Old Hiruzen, other sannin . These are the ones that Jiraiya has his fair shot against.

and anything below this simply fcking irrelevant to Jiraiya. Deal with it.  And all rest of it will get wrecked by him.

So this is the farest , craziest place a Jiraiya fan can go. And its very reasonable. Its nothing like "Kisame = Nagato" or "Itachi could take down PS restricted Madara" or "WA Kakashi > Pain" or "7G Gai solos Sannin" its nothing like that 

OMG, shame on you people 


Honorable Mentions for Wanking:

A4, Gai, Hebi Sasuke, Boruto Chars, Boruto packed God tiers (like Momoshiki), Haku, Kimimaro


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> EMS Sasuke started to track Juubito, so a fully mattured Mads can very easily track and tag backpack A-Onoki and kill them with Susano'o.


So a "fully matured" EMS Mads can "easily" track _and_ "tag" A-Onoki with his Susanoo, *despite* Rinnegan Edo Mads' Susanoo getting punched away through the air just before Muu got smacked as well?



hbcaptain said:


> "_A character should be seen as a whole, his level shouldn't be based on some "best feats which massively contradict all what was established all over the manga"._"


Not sure what you're getting at. I am trying my best to view them all overall. People keep seeming to dismiss the fact that Madara became a 10 Tails Jinchuuriki - that's a _very_ big deal. Try considering that in your "overall" assessment.



hbcaptain said:


> Gai with the 7th gate is arround Kisame/Kakuzu level, so in base he is obviously a fodder who can't last one fragment of second against Minato.


Kisame wasn't mortally wounded by Gai for 6 reasons. *Even then* Gai could still punch him in the gut and was still ready to fight later on. I don't think you understand how much power the Gates can grant a Taijutsu specialist.



hbcaptain said:


> See my post above.


See my post above.



hbcaptain said:


> I don't recall such a thing.


Then let me remind you. 



hbcaptain said:


> -7G Gai can pressure a serious JJ Mads while even the Gokage couldn't keep up with a mere Edo Madara and SM/KCM Minato was foddered by JJs
> -No one knows to practice Taijutsu outside of Gai.
> -"Base" Gai's Taijutsu is the best in history while it was explicitly stated he only reach this level in the 8th gate.
> -base Gai can keep up with KCM Naruto.
> ...



Please show me the evidence that it was stated Obito was "toying" with Kakashi. 



hbcaptain said:


> They were not, otherwise prove it.


Alright.





hbcaptain said:


> He was not, hence's why Ama' tagged the Samurai not A.


That why react by covering his Susanoo with flames and later was able to form Enton Amaterasu in response to a dropkick? At least he was able to react. 



hbcaptain said:


> Kakashi's Sharingan mastery doesn't equalize that of an Uchiha genius like Sasuke.


This is false. Two of those "Uchiha" you're talking about (Obito and Madara) BOTH praised Kakashi Hatake of the Sharingan. 



hbcaptain said:


> That's not what Kakashi wankers say. I'm talking about Kakashi wankers point of view not your current one which is rather fair.


Interesting... Well, if I ever say something wrong, just feel free to call me out on it.


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## Santoryu (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> *Jiraiya, Tsunade and Kakashi.*
> I'm gonna rustle some jimmies with this one.
> 
> 
> ...



Bold is possible. 
Even reasonable Itachi fans accepted this at one point.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 19, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> So a "fully matured" EMS Mads can "easily" track _and_ "tag" A-Onoki with his Susanoo, *despite* Rinnegan Edo Mads' Susanoo getting punched away through the air just before Muu got smacked as well?


Or Edo Mads was toying with them and purposely let them tag his Susano'o as it was explicited multiple times in the manga.



Mad Scientist said:


> Not sure what you're getting at. I am trying my best to view them all overall. People keep seeming to dismiss the fact that Madara became a 10 Tails Jinchuuriki - that's a _very_ big deal. Try considering that in your "overall" assessment.


Ok, which put Gai at Kisame level overall.

Obito was refering to this scene and this other scene which only happened because "BM Naruto" was attacking him in the real world.



Mad Scientist said:


> That why react by covering his Susanoo with flames and later was able to form Enton Amaterasu in response to a dropkick? At least he was able to react.


Raikage wasn't using Shunshin in this instance, he jumped and then dropped with a kick hence the appelation "Guillotine Drop".



Mad Scientist said:


> This is false. Two of those "Uchiha" you're talking about (Obito and Madara) BOTH praised Kakashi Hatake of the Sharingan.


Kakashi's P1 mastery was below an Uchiha's as per canon and Sasuke is a genius Uchiha with "two" MSs.
Madara praised him for the nature of his powers not his level of mastery.



Mad Scientist said:


> Interesting... Well, if I ever say something wrong, just feel free to call me out on it.


I'm not talking about you specifically but Kakashi wankers in general.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> no it's not just you
> several posters make the claim


Well... it’s about the hype and feats. Even in his weakened state, he probably had the best durability feats of Part 1.




He wasn’t supposed to be capable of moving. Orochimaru was terrified of losing him. He was called his strongest servant (implying that he was stronger than Kabuto). It was stated that the killing of the Third Hokage would have gone smoothly if Kimimaro had been healthy. A low Jonin Level ninja wouldn’t have made a difference in that fight.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> It was not stated anywhere that Gai could defeat Kisame with the 6th gate and Kisame was very confident about ripping him appart afte seeing Asa Kujaku "twice".
> 
> 30% Kisame "defeated" base Gai in a pure Taijutsu battle while ninjutsu/Suiton is his main point.
> 
> ...


1) Kisames confidence means nothing. He lost twice.

2) Not that it matters, but Kisame did use Ninjutsu and Gai’s arms had been torn to shreds by Samehada. And what’s the point of mentioning that anyways. Yes. It’s made clear that Gai needs the Gates to beat Kisame. Kisame is a lot more powerful than Base Gai. That’s just as true as 7 Gate Gai being a lot more powerful than Kisame.

3) He was forced to use Asakujaku on a lake, because Tenten was drowning in his water prison and curbstomped him.

4) You keep on saying 30% as if it means something. That just means that he had less chakra. He still had about as much as Pre-Skip Naruto according to Neji. All of his physical stats were the same.


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## Axiom (Jun 19, 2019)

Can’t believe Sasori even showed up as a choice here haha... well I guess he is a hot topic recently.

Anyway my vote would be for Jiraiya. I think SM J-man is fairly rated but too many people believe base J-man low diffs like half the Akatsuki and it gets a bit old! And you can tell by the fact that J-man threads get so much traction that he has a lot of followers here (and some haters, to be fair).


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## Bonly (Jun 19, 2019)

Easily Kakashi and Gai lol, the amount of mental gymnastics quite a few people do in order to inflate the duo’s lvl and feats is  hilarious


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## JayK (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> *Jiraiya, Tsunade and Kakashi.*
> I'm gonna rustle some jimmies with this one.
> 
> 
> ...


Also this.

If more votes were available I'd unironically vote for those 3 for pretty much the same reasons stated.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> -He can solo the Akatsuki.
> -He can push JJ Obito to high difficulty.
> -His VOTE crater is over 35,000km.
> -He can stomp high tier characters.
> ...


Well thanks for refreshing my memory, to add up to the list. He is in the same tier as RSM Naruto.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Or Edo Mads was toying with them and purposely let them tag his Susano'o as it was explicited multiple times in the manga.


Show me proof he let them tag his Susanoo (despite Mu getting smacked away and Madara trying to react).



hbcaptain said:


> Ok, which put Gai at Kisame level overall.


You literally disregarded all my other points to come to some unsubstantiated conclusion. You just don't want to accept how fast a 7G Gai is.



hbcaptain said:


> Obito was refering to this scene and this other scene which only happened because "BM Naruto" was attacking him in the real world.


Not only have you completely disregarded his first Raikiri upon landing, but you also have yet to show a scan of a statement where Obito said that he was "toying" with Kakashi. 



hbcaptain said:


> Raikage wasn't using Shunshin in this instance, he jumped and then dropped with a kick hence the appelation "Guillotine Drop".


He was in RCM2 form and was ready to drop down super fast to bust Sasuke's head. What I'm telling you is that you're thinking BM Naruto can _travel_/_run_/_move_ at, for example, KCM Naruto Shunshin speeds even when not using Shunshin. In other words, KCM Naruto isn't faster than A4's _travelling speed_ but he _can_ outspeed him using Shunshin and other outmanoeuvring tactics such as the use of chakra arms. 



hbcaptain said:


> Kakashi's P1 mastery was below an Uchiha's as per canon and Sasuke is a genius Uchiha with "two" MSs.
> Madara praised him for the nature of his powers not his level of mastery.


We're talking about his WA mastery which Obito praised and you're right, of which Madara noted his skill of. Yeah Itachi is a genius as well and he got outplayed by Kakashi. You're still not admitting how powerful Kakashi is as a wielder of the Mangekyo Sharingan _despite_ not even being an Uchiha. No, in fact his skill at using it was so good he outplayed Obito _Uchiha_ when keeping track of BM Naruto's flying speed and warping him faster than the stake!

​


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> SM Naruto clone reacted to V2 A3 and guys like Suigetsu easily reacted to V1 A4. So whats the problem ? Why a sage not able to react him when he has a motion barrier big enough to cover a huge area ?
> 
> And no one says that like reacting him in cqc or on the same ground. Check your info.


You just equated a perfect sage SM Naruto to a slower Jiraiya, reacting a slower A3 compared to a faster v2 A4. Slow clap for you man

And motion barrier is not increasing his speed. If he getting blitzed, he's getting blitzed. What can a motion detector do to increase his reflexes?
.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> Manga statement. Its a hard case to debate but there is a possibility some could saw high some could saw as really tiny. But there is.



In Manga a statement said  itachi is invincible.
So Jman is not in his league as he is it invincible..


JiraiyaFlash said:


> Manga statement. And its not a equivalent of being "wanked" at all.  Funny
> 
> 
> The wanking could be something like;
> ...


Again, manga statement says itachi is invincible. End of discussion, since you love manga statements.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> All 3 are basicly adressing manga statements


Yes.   All 3 are the same..
Wank.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Easily Kakashi and Gai lol, the amount of mental gymnastics quite a few people do in order to inflate the duo’s lvl and feats is  hilarious


Feel free to point them out instead of sitting back and criticising especially when you, as a long-term poster, have a wide knowledge of debating and Naruto. Why don't you enlighten us in a friendly, informative manner?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

I forgot to add, 
Jman can beat Ohnoki.... 
And on top of that, He will trap him in Youmi Nouma before he can take flight.


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## Gianfi (Jun 19, 2019)

Young Hiruzen or Tobirama most likely. The former is featless, has hype only for characters who likely never saw him in combat and aniway his feats as an Edo don’t put him anywhere near the level he is thought to be, and by some he is still placed above the likes minati, pain Itachi ecc

Tobirama is even worse, his best feats are losing (with help) to twins who were later defeated by Darui who at the very best was low Kage level, if not high Jonin. Twins who weren’t even hyped to be in the top 3 Edo reincarnated by Kishi’s editors (not sure if that’s considered a valuable information just like a DB, or something they randomly wrote without having any true idea of where Kishi places them). And he was even hyped to be weaker than 20(?) year old Hiruzen... but there are some people who place him above Minato.. he’d be lucky to make it to high Kage level tbh

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Jun 19, 2019)

No one can explain to me how Gai needs the seventh gate to beat a water clone of Kisame.


Yet somehow his base is faster then the sanin? Like jiriya who blitzed Kisame mid sword swing? Yet even in sixth gate he can’t blitz Kisame?


This shit isn’t adding up.


Also WA kakashi. Literally nothing besides stamina and kamui changed with this man between PA and WA. His speed didn’t really change, ala haku blitz, his strength didn’t change from what we can see, his smarts stayed the same obviously. Kakashi was always fast, not just WA, but people act like he’s even faster in WA. Sure maybe his eye is.


Jman is up there too actually despite me arguing for him a lot. Base Jman seventh gate gai what the fuck? Base Jman beating Kisame what the fuck?


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## Symmetry (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Tsunade beating Pain or giving him a high diff fight IN THE VILLAGE.



Which village? With or without knowledge? These things matter. 



Zembie said:


> ALL OF THEM BEING ABLE TO REACT TO V2 (an argument can be made for SM Jiraiya tho)



Only sanin you can’t make a case for is Orochimaru 



Zembie said:


> Base Jiraiya beating Itachi.



What the fuck is this wank



Zembie said:


> WA Kakakshi beating MS Sasuke or Itachi.



Why is this wank a thing



Zembie said:


> Kakashi beating 6POP.



Why



Zembie said:


> SM Jiraiya beating Minato.



Jesus it’s getting worse



Zembie said:


> Tsunade can regrow her head



Up for debate



Zembie said:


> or bodyparts.



She says she can herself. 



Zembie said:


> SM Jiraiya beating SM Naruto



Only if he outlasts the five minute time period. 



Zembie said:


> Jiraiya beating Onoki




Debatable for both sides



Zembie said:


> Jiraiya solo-ing the masters



I can’t even with this one. Seventh gate gai on his own could probably take Jman




Zembie said:


> Tsunade beating Kakashi




Tsuande and WA kakashi relies on when he sues kamui, hard to say whether her beating him is right or wrong. 



Oh also you forgot heavy wank I’ll say right here


Apparently Jman can solo DMS kakashi. I actually saw this one. Like what the fuck


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Apparently Jman can solo DMS kakashi. I actually saw this one. Like what the fuck


@Hazuki is proving to be the wisest poster here.


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## Omote (Jun 19, 2019)

Jiraiya for sure, I've been here for a few years and even as recent as just a few days ago people still use the trash ass Databook Stats to wank him

Kakashi is Def a close second tho


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## Santoryu (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Also WA kakashi. Literally nothing besides *stamina* and *kamui *changed with this man between PA and WA.



Even if we were to assume those were the only things that changed, those two alone are huge changes for two reasons:

1. Kamui is Kakashi's most powerful technique and it's arguably the most hax and dangerous Mangekyo-Sharingan ability in the manga.

2. Since Part 1, using the Sharingan in conjunction with high level jutsu for long duration has been a weakness for Kakashi. It's one of the few things that stopped him from achieving "Kage level" some would argue. 



Orochimaru op said:


> His speed didn’t really change, ala haku blitz, his strength didn’t change from what we can see, his smarts stayed the same obviously.



This whole "Haku blitz" is completely erroneous and I think you're better than that. It's an old argument that has only recently re-surfaced due to a certain Juice-G. I would provide scans but I'm on my phone so anyone else is free to provide them in my stead. But consider the following:

Wave Arc Kakashi was out of shape and Haku achieved the same feat he did against War arc Kakashi. We know for a fact that Kakashi's speed did improve in the databook from them, and we also know that he started training due to being rusty and unfit.

A further problem is this. If Haku has the necessary speed to blitz Kakashi; why is the best he could only muster was intervene between Kakashi's attack and Zabuza, thereby sacrificing himself, merely to make an opening for Zabuza, which he failed to capitalise on in both the wave and war arc. It's a narrative parallel, not indicative of "Haku blitz" speed.

If you still don't buy my argument, consider the following:

Kakashi outright _stopped_ Sasuke's chidori attack and subsequently bested him a brief taijutsu. Are you going to claim that Kakashi can blitz Sasuke?
Kakashi _intervened_ against Obito and Naruto, stopping the former from ending the match. Are you going to claim Kakashi can blitz Obito? These are surprise interceptions to pull a narrative purpose. Their sole function isn't to illustrate one's speed, unless stated otherwise.
This was further demonstrated when Kakuzu _intervened _against Kakashi and Hidan. Kakashi was unable to react and consequently got sent flying. We see Shikimaru reacting to Kakuzu's blindside attack? Are you going to claim Shikimaru is more reflexive and faster than Kakashi now?
Note that I haven't highlighted Kakashi's speed feats in detail, though abundant in nature, they aren't necessary to discredit the "Haku blitz" argument. 
I hope this puts this to bed.



Orochimaru op said:


> Kakashi was always fast, not just WA, but people act like he’s even faster in WA. Sure maybe his eye is.



On this point I'm in agreement with you. Kakashi may have gained a slight speed boost in the WA, but it's not substantial. What we do know is that his Sharingan-skill progressively got better, which we know plays a role in CQC, thus making his moves more efficient, which might look as if he's faster.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Which village? With or without knowledge? These things matter.


Konoha, in Naruto's place against Pain.


> Only sanin you can’t make a case for is Orochimaru


Tsunade too, unless you show me something impressive in terms of reaction. Same goes for Base Jman.


> Up for debate


If  you can see Tsunade regrowing her head like an alien be my guest.


> She says she can herself.


In Viz.


> Only if he outlasts the five minute time period.


Which is basically impossible.


> Debatable for both sides


Not if its base Jman, no.


> Oh also you forgot heavy wank I’ll say right here
> Apparently Jman can solo DMS kakashi. I actually saw this one. Like what the fuck


Hazuki is a quality poster.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

JayK said:


> Jiraiya wins against Pain in the rain village with knowledge
> 
> Jiraiya is equal to Itachi



If you have a problem with these I suggest you write Kishimoto and ask *why he keeps wanking Jiraiya* because these are stated in the manga.

2019 - Where believing what the manga tells us is considered "wank".

It's a great time to be alive.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> If you have a problem with these I suggest you write Kishimoto and ask *why he keeps wanking Jiraiya* because these are stated in the manga.
> 
> 2019 - Where believing what the manga tells us is considered "wank".
> 
> It's a great time to be alive.


When was it stated that Itachi is on the same level as Jiraiya?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Android said:


> Kakashi by a landslide.
> 
> No other character comes close to how disgustingly overrated he is.





Bonly said:


> Easily Kakashi and Gai lol, the amount of mental gymnastics quite a few people do in order to inflate the duo’s lvl and feats is  hilarious



Right here.

I mean I like me some Kakashi wank, but this shit is spiraling out of control.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> When was it stated that Itachi is on the same level as Jiraiya?



When Itachi said they would die fighting each other.

Does anybody actually read the manga?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> When Itachi said they would die fighting each other.
> 
> Does anybody actually read the manga?


But Itachi had 0 knowledge on his abilities, just because he stated it doesn't mean it has any merit. The feats just don't add up.

But I concede on this one since the question I asked you was answered.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 19, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Even if we were to assume those were the only things that changed, those two alone are huge changes for two reasons:
> 
> 1. Kamui is Kakashi's most powerful technique and it's arguably the most hax and dangerous Mangekyo-Sharingan ability in the manga.
> 
> ...



RIP @Orochimaru op


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> No one can explain to me how Gai needs the seventh gate to beat a water clone of Kisame.


He doesn't.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> No one can explain to me how Gai needs the seventh gate to beat a water clone of Kisame.
> 
> Yet somehow his base is faster then the sanin? Like jiriya who blitzed Kisame mid sword swing? Yet even in sixth gate he can’t blitz Kisame?
> 
> ...


1) What are you talking about? 6 Gates Gai did blitz Kisame. And the Sannin are fast no doubt, but I don’t think it was ever stated that their movement speed was particularly high in Base.

Also, Gai didn’t use 6 Gates to beat Kisame. He used 6 Gates to curbstomp Kisame, because Tenten was drowning in his water prison.

2) Kamui is his best technique and given Kakashi’s wide range of abilities, his stamina improving is a major boost to his power.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 19, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Not the skill argument? You must be an old school Itachi fan. I haven't heard that one in years.:lol
> But down to business, you know you ain't right, you know ain't right.
> 
> Nagato's efforts in the war lasted for one encounter, and his only mission was to capture Naruto and Bee. He was being controlled, and even with that in mind, he would have successfully extracted the souls from Naruto and Bee if not for Itachi. Truthfully we've already seen Nagato in a war like situation. He invaded Konoha with only Konan, and succeeded in killing hundred if not thousands; he leveled the village, and would have successfully captured Naruto if it wasn't for several pivotal moments that stopped him from doing so. In the end his assault only ended at the hands of TNJ and a Book.
> ...



-Yes the skill argument. Which was always relevant. It was even shown all over the place in the Nagato vs Itachi battle. I know I am 100% right.

Nagato was absolutely a benchmark for Naruto. UZUMAKI Nagato... The boy Jiraiya initially saw as the hero from his prophecy but turned into anti-Naruto and the role shifted to Naruto instead. It was as much the passing of a torch as Sasuke inheriting Itachi's abilities was.

Nagato~Healthy Itachi>six paths of pain~sick Itachi. Plain and simple.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Yet somehow his base is faster then the sanin? Like jiriya who blitzed Kisame mid sword swing? Yet even in sixth gate he can’t blitz Kisame?


No one ever says that. 
And Jiraiya didn't blitz Kisame. That's not a blitz. 
It's an interception. Both are different. 
Sixth gate gai didn't want to blitz Kisame because he had more pressing matters. He wanted to take out the sharks first.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> But Itachi had 0 knowledge on his abilities, just because he stated it doesn't mean it has any merit.



Kishi knows their abilities. He wrote it.

There is LITERALLY no chance Kishi is writing that scene with the secret motivation that Itachi doesn't actually know anything about Jiraiya.

It's simply nonsensical.



> The feats just don't add up.



Subjective.

However if you feel this way then I assume you would also believe that Hashirama loses to Itachi via genjutsu GG

I don't really care what you believe here, the point is buying into a "feats" only logic comes with problems like this where you must make provisions like Hashi would break genjutsu even tho he has zero feats suggesting it.



> But I concede on this one since the question I asked you was answered.



Fair enough.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> He doesn't.


If anything, Gai is underrated. Kishimoto beat us over the head with the fact that Gai is among the best ninja in the series over and over again.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Kishi knows their abilities. He wrote it.
> 
> There is LITERALLY no chance Kishi is writing that scene with the secret motivation that Itachi doesn't actually know anything about Jiraiya.
> 
> ...


Only a Sannin can defeat another Sannin

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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Subjective.
> 
> However if you feel this way then I assume you would also believe that Hashirama loses to Itachi via genjutsu GG
> 
> I don't really care what you believe here, the point is buying into a "feats" only logic comes with problems like this where you must make provisions like Hashi would break genjutsu even tho he has zero feats suggesting it.


Its pretty safe to say that Hashirama knows how to fight against the Sharingan since he was at a war with the Uchiha, not really comparable to what you're trying to present.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> You just equated a perfect sage SM Naruto to a slower Jiraiya, reacting a slower A3 compared to a faster v2 A4. Slow clap for you man


No you're just speculating things  I dont think SM Jiraiya faster than SM Naruto ...  Plus that was a clone not naruto's himself.



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> And motion barrier is not increasing his speed.


Yeah it increase sense and reaction in a huge area  



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> In Manga a statement said itachi is invincible.
> So Jman is not in his league as he is it invincible..


So you picking statements ?

Then its not a wank but a choice simply.



Orochimaru op said:


> Base Jman beating Kisame what the fuck?


per canon


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> No you're just speculating things  I dont think SM Jiraiya faster than SM Naruto ... Plus that was a clone not naruto's himself.


And the clone did stuff welay above jiraiya's punching limit. He was thst much stronger.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Yeah it increase sense and reaction in a huge area


No.. It increases sensing. Not reactions. 


JiraiyaFlash said:


> So you picking statements ?
> 
> Then its not a wank but a choice simply.


So now we pick? ??


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## JayK (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> When Itachi said they would die fighting each other.


Yes when Itachi said that about 20 years ago in a sidelined statement nobody right in their mind gives a shit about anymore.



ShinAkuma said:


> Does anybody actually read the manga?


No, everybody who disagrees with the absurd statements of the Sannin fandom is just a troll who never read the manga.

But seeing how some people in the Sannin fandom judge me as a Master wanker despite myself saying that Kakashi is overrated I am starting to believe that you guys label everybody a Master fanboy who doesn't agree with your borderline delusional views of the Sannin.


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## Symmetry (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Konoha, in Naruto's place against Pain.



I didn’t hink it’s unreasonable tod ya a full knowledge tsunade can take out five of the sixth paths before deva fucks her.



Zembie said:


> Tsunade too, unless you show me something impressive in terms of reaction. Same goes for Base Jman.



Base Jman has no business reacting to this. There are good points for tsunade you can find through the madara fight, however these scans alone would make it look liek tsunade is the same speed as the raikage, but anyone with a brain take sit with a grain of salt. 





Zembie said:


> If you can see Tsunade regrowing her head like an alien be my guest.



As I said I’m on the fence about it 



Zembie said:


> In Viz.



True, but tsunade was able to summon a smaller version of katsuyu with no 100 healings while bisected and fatigued to the point where she passed out from exhaustion prior. Katsuyu would be able to save a bisected tsuande if she didn’t have to heal the other kage, while she was super fatigued, and this is a smaller katsuyu and she doesn’t have 1000 healings. Losing like an arm isn’t nearly as bad as being bisected, so 100 healings should be able to heal it, although it will eat at her seal length. 



Zembie said:


> Which is basically impossible.



Idk, Jman is a slippery guy and has a lot of range to spam jutsu



Zembie said:


> Not if its base Jman, no.



Definetly not base no.



Zembie said:


> Hazuki is a quality poster.



When is as that post I died in my seat. This is what makes people agree sanin fans.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Its pretty safe to say that Hashirama knows how to fight against the Sharingan since he was at a war with the Uchiha, not really comparable to what you're trying to present.



When Jiraiya was in his prime Uchiha's were every where in the village as it was pre uchiha massacre.

It is simply illogical to assume that a jounin from another village like Chiyo, understands how to fight Sharingan but Jiraiya is somehow magically clueless.

Come on.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> When Jiraiya was in his prime Uchiha's were every where in the village as it was pre uchiha massacre.
> 
> It is simply illogical to assume that a jounin from another village like Chiyo, understands how to fight Sharingan but Jiraiya is somehow magically clueless.
> 
> Come on.


But I never said that Genjutsu was a problem for Jman? You were the one who brought out Hashirama.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> No one ever says that.
> And Jiraiya didn't blitz Kisame. That's not a blitz.
> It's an interception. Both are different.
> Sixth gate gai didn't want to blitz Kisame because he had more pressing matters. He wanted to take out the sharks first.


When he wanted to blitz Kisame with 6 Gates he did just that.

Naruto Chapter 258 Page 13-18


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

JayK said:


> Yes when Itachi said that about 20 years ago in a sidelined statement nobody right in their mind gives a shit about anymore.



And Pein saying Jiraiya would beat him in the rain village with knowledge was 7 years ago, yet you had no issue lumping them together.

Don't pretend your refusal to accept what the manga tells you has anything to do with date stamp relevancy or whatever flimsy motivation you're attempting to paint here.



> No, everybody who disagrees with the absurd statements of the Sannin fandom is just a troll who never read the manga.



I'm sorry, but when you label *VERIFIED MANGA STATEMENTS* as wank, I have to assume you didn't actually read it, otherwise you just look asinine.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'm sorry, but when you label *VERIFIED MANGA STATEMENTS* as wank, I have to assume you didn't actually read it, otherwise you just look asinine.


No offense but statements are not the best merit you should be going for in matchups *UNLESS* it's backed up. What now, Madara can solo Juubito?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> But I never said that Genjutsu was a problem for Jman? You were the one who brought out Hashirama.




The point is you are allowing a provision for Hashirama not based on feats but based on implication. (which is fine with me) Yet you don't allow this provision for Jiraiya.

Don't you see the double standard here?


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## JayK (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> VERIFIED MANGA STATEMENTS


Except for the fact that they are not verified at all and often just follow the intend to hype certain characters.

In Itachi's case he was visibly shown to be much stronger than Orochimaru who's about as strong as Jiraiya BY THE VERY SAME AUTHOR WRITING THE VERY SAME MANGA. You can't pretend that statements were written by the author but feats, fights and manga panels were not. That'd make you a hypocrite.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> When he wanted to blitz Kisame with 6 Gates he did just that.
> 
> Naruto Chapter 258 Page 13-18


Yes... But I know what the counter argument is going to be.:
" he was a choten clone, not the real one". 
I must address it myself before the two paths of Juicyg/Shazam point it out.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> No offense but statements are not the best merit you should be going for in matchups *UNLESS* it's backed up. What now, Madara can solo Juubito?



If that is the metric you go by no matter what, then that is fine.

Would you agree that Hashirama loses to Itachi via genjutsu GG?


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Yes... But I know what the counter argument is going to be.:
> " he was a choten clone, not the real one".
> I must address it myself before the two paths of Juicyg/Shazam point it out.


It was already proven Shouten clones are at *FULL POWER*, just not their full chakra capacity.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> The point is you are allowing a provision for Hashirama not based on feats but based on implication. (which is fine with me) Yet you don't allow this provision for Jiraiya.
> 
> Don't you see the double standard here?


I do to both, like I said Jman can deal with the sharingan (just like I think most kage level characters can, too). I just don't take baseless statements unless they are backed up by feats, completely different.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> If that is the metric you go by no matter what, then that is fine.
> 
> Would you agree that Hashirama loses to Itachi via genjutsu GG?


Depends on how the fight goes, Hashirama hasn't fallen to genjutsu in an entire war with the Uchiha which is their *FORTE, *so it is not so far fetched to say he can probably avoid it, yes.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'm sorry, but when you label *VERIFIED MANGA STATEMENTS* as wank, I have to assume you didn't actually read i


Some statements made in the Manga


Itachi is invincible.
Only a Sannin can beat another Sannin.
Madara said he was going to defeat Juubito.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Yes... But I know what the counter argument is going to be.:
> " he was a choten clone, not the real one".
> I must address it myself before the two paths of Juicyg/Shazam point it out.


Yup. Never mind the fact that the clone was Kisame in almost every way. They even copied his sword. The only difference is that he had less chakra (but still about as much as Part 1 Naruto).


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> It was already proven Shouten clones are at *FULL POWER*, just not their full chakra capacity.


I know. 
But that still wouldn't stop the Master down players to still use it. And when given an answer they just shove fingers in their ears and sing " not listening" repeatedly.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> I know.
> But that still wouldn't stop the Master down players to still use it. And when given an ansemwer they just shove fingers in their ears and sing " not listening" repeatedly.


It's embarrassing for people to admit they are wrong for some reason.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

JayK said:


> Except for the fact that they are not verified at all and often just follow the intend to hype certain characters.
> 
> In Itachi's case he was visibly shown to be much stronger than Orochimaru who's about as strong as Jiraiya BY THE VERY SAME AUTHOR WRITING THE VERY SAME MANGA.



Oh really?

Where was it established that Jman and Oro are the same level? When they were 17?

There is so many holes in your logic. For one we don't know how the two modern versions (at the time) of the characters actually stack up. Second we know for a fact that if Oro used Edo Tensei he could beat Itachi.

You cannot logically reconcile Oro getting shit on by Itachi and the fact that Edo (Oro's jutsu) is capable of defeating Itachi without recognizing narrative purpose. There is also the possibility that Kishi simply considers Jman to be stronger than Oro.



> You can't pretend that statements were written by the author but feats, fights and manga panels were not. That'd make you a hypocrite.



I don't pretend that, so I'm good.

Feat interpretation is quite subjective. What one considers a great feat another may find to be mundane. This is where narrative intent comes in.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Depends on how the fight goes,



Whoa slow down there.

Hashi has no feats of breaking genjutsu. He also has *the most panels ever* of staring into a Uchiha's eyes. Itachi is likely a top 3 genjutsu specialist all time for the Uchihas.

Feat-wise Hashi should lose.



> Hashirama hasn't fallen to genjutsu in an entire war with the Uchiha which is their *FORTE,*



How do you know this?

Are you allowing a provision for Hashi that isn't based on feats? Hmmmmmm
*
*


> so it is not so far fetched to say he can probably avoid it, yes.



Hashi simply has no feats. I agree that narratively he would shit all over Itachi's attempt to genjutsu him, but this is not a feat based argument, which is my point. You must invoke narrative, not feats, for Hashi to avoid this.


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## JayK (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Where was it established that Jman and Oro are the same level? When they were 17?





ShinAkuma said:


> For one we don't know how the two modern versions (at the time) of the characters actually stack up.


You are correct actually, Orochimaru might just be stronger than Jiraiya in fact.



ShinAkuma said:


> There is so many holes in your logic.


The irony.



ShinAkuma said:


> Second we know for a fact that if Oro used Edo Tensei he could beat Itachi.


Yes just like how Kakashi beats any Sannin or Itachi when he uses Kamui am I right? Oh wait no you are laughing at that fact and try to suppress it like a bunch of hypocrites.

Kamui GG? Will never happen.

ET GG? All the time babe.

The Sannin fandom is showing 0 consistency whatsoever when it comes to debating their favourites compaired to literally every other character and then claim they are in the right.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Whoa slow down there.
> 
> Hashi has no feats of breaking genjutsu. He also has *the most panels ever* of staring into a Uchiha's eyes. Itachi is likely a top 3 genjutsu specialist all time for the Uchihas.
> 
> ...


And yet he was not caught a *SINGLE TIME,* no? There is *NOTHING* disproving that Hashirama couldn't deal with genjutsu, while for Jiraya there are countless arguments to be made about how Itachi cockslaps him using established *F E A T S *that *DISPROVE *the statement.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Some statements made in the Manga
> 
> 
> Itachi is invincible.
> ...



Other statements;

Minato is faster than Tobirama
Itachi is a failure
Jiraiya would die vs the 3 paths

What is the difference here? I mean these 3 statements are most likely true vs the 3 that you offer which are most likely false.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Other statements;
> 
> Minato is faster than Tobirama
> Itachi is a failure
> ...


Isn't that why they have to be backed up by feats?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Other statements;
> 
> Minato is faster than Tobirama
> Itachi is a failure
> ...


Yes.. All of the ones you mentioned are true.
Itachi is a failure. Which is backed by events in the manga. 
Minato is faster than Tobirama. Again backed by the manga. 
Jiraiya did die vs the three paths. 
 You see the pattern here. The true statements have material backing them up. 
Whereas Jiraiya being equal to Itachi does not. 
That's the difference.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

Its like we are saying for statements to be valid they have to be backed up by feats or something, really makes you think...


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> And yet he was not caught a *SINGLE TIME,* no?



Was he?

How would you know. 

Did you even read the post you just quoted?



> There is *NOTHING* disproving that Hashirama couldn't deal with genjutsu,



This is called a provision.

Try reading what you are quoting next time.

Hashi has *no feats vs genjutsu*.

Are you completely unaware of the double standard here?



> while for Jiraya there are countless arguments to be made about how Itachi cockslaps him using established *F E A T S *that *DISPROVE *the statement.



And you don't allow a provision for Jiraiya even tho Itachi himself said they were equals.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Was he?
> 
> How would you know.
> 
> ...


I did read what you said, and I responded accordingly. He has no feats against genjutsu but he also has no feats *FALLING* to genjutsu, from a *NARRATIVE* standpoint it would make sense that he would know better than to avoid it. The difference between those 2 things is that one is *DIRECTLY *contradicted later in the manga, while the other is not, capiche?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

JayK said:


> You are correct actually, Orochimaru might just be stronger than Jiraiya in fact.



Sure.



> The irony.



That word doesn't mean what you think it means.



> Yes just like how Kakashi beats any Sannin or Itachi when he uses Kamui am I right?



Yes he can.



> Oh wait no you are laughing at that fact and try to suppress it like a bunch of hypocrites.



Stop being a fucking idiot.

If you don't like having your hypocrisy exposed stop being a fucking hypocrite.



> Kamui GG? Will never happen.



I literally just posted that Kakashi can defeat virtually anybody via Kamui. I am *ON RECORD* as support Kamui as the most broken ability in the manga.

But expecting you to have a clue about anything you say is a tall, no, impossible fucking feat.



> The Sannin fandom is showing 0 consistency whatsoever when it comes to debating their favourites compaired to literally every other character and then claim they are in the right.



Hey that having a clue thing? Not your forte.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Yes.. All of the ones you mentioned are true.
> Itachi is a failure. Which is backed by events in the manga.



Except when he didn't fail.



> Minato is faster than Tobirama. Again backed by the manga.



Except when Tobirama moved faster.



> Jiraiya did die vs the three paths.



Except that Jiraiya defeated the 3 paths, and died vs the 6.



> You see the pattern here.



I do lol

Probably not the one you think you see tho.



> The true statements have material backing them up.
> Whereas Jiraiya being equal to Itachi does not.
> That's the difference.



The real difference - statement of boasting are generally untrue, or are setups to prove to be untrue.

Statements of characters capitulating to others or scenarios are generally true.

This is a narrative trope as old as narration. Probably shouldn't have to point it out, but here we are.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Except when he didn't fail.


He did tho, it happened in the manga, or are we reading a different manga or something?




> Except when Tobirama moved faster.


When?




> Except that Jiraiya defeated the 3 paths, and died vs the 6.


But he did say that he would die vs the 3 paths, right? Just like Itachi said that they both will die when fighting each other.



> Statements of characters capitulating to others or scenarios are generally true.


Just like Jiraiya died against the 3 paths?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I did read what you said, and I responded accordingly.



Did you?

Fuck sakes.....



> He has no feats against genjutsu but he also has no feats *FALLING* to genjutsu,



Neither does Jiraiya.

D'oh!

Mental gymnastic incoming?



> from a *NARRATIVE* standpoint it would make sense that he would know better than to avoid it.



Feats suggest he loves staring into sharingans as he has *the most panels ever* staring into a Uchiha's eyes.

Already mention this stuff *IN THE POST YOU QUOTED*.



> The difference between those 2 things is that one is *DIRECTLY *contradicted later in the manga, while the other is not, capiche?



You've offered no contradictions other than your flawed logic.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Except when he didn't fail.


Except he did. 
Atleast to the point where he was alive.


ShinAkuma said:


> Except when Tobirama moved faster.


And when Minato had a faster shunshin. 


ShinAkuma said:


> Except that Jiraiya defeated the 3 paths, and died vs the 6.


He was pretty much gonna die anyways. 
The six just finished him off together. 


ShinAkuma said:


> Statements of characters capitulating to others or scenarios are generally true.


Generally true based on what???? 
Atleast based on what in this scenario?


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Did you?
> 
> Fuck sakes.....
> 
> ...


No one is arguing about genjutsu tho? Why the fuck are you arguing about genjutsu?


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Did you?
> 
> Fuck sakes.....


I did.



> Neither does Jiraiya.
> 
> D'oh!
> 
> Mental gymnastic incoming?


Why do you assume that I think Jiraya would fall to genjutsu???




> Feats suggest he loves staring into sharingans as he has *the most panels ever* staring into a Uchiha's eyes.
> 
> Already mention this stuff *IN THE POST YOU QUOTED*.


And yet he was not caught in a genjutsu, no?




> You've offered no contradictions other than your flawed logic.




*MY *logic is flawed?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> He did tho, it happened in the manga, or are we reading a different manga or something?



Did Itachi fail at everything?

Did he fail to massacre all the Uchiha except Sasuke and "Madara".

Why does this need to be pointed out?



> When?



Versus JJ Obito. Take a look at Turrin's thread.



> But he did say that he would die vs the 3 paths, right?



Yes, and then he killed them.



> Just like Itachi said that they both will die when fighting each other.



Yes.



> Just like Jiraiya died against the 3 paths?



Yes.

And here's another point probably missed - Was Jiraiya's statement about dying to the 3 paths untrue even tho his "feats" show he didn't?


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## Sufex (Jun 19, 2019)

One should factor and statements as equal as can be when weighting up match ups.

They both come together to become overall portrayal as the feats are drawn by the same author the staments are wrote by. It's a shame people like to split these things up which only serves to show thier own biases e.g. i chose to use this stament over a feat or vise versa but only in this one case.

When one gets too much weighting you can come to ridiculous conclusions such as madaras susanoo smashing the entire universe or tobirama being faster than jubito.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Did Itachi fail at everything?
> 
> Did he fail to massacre all the Uchiha except Sasuke and "Madara".
> 
> Why does this need to be pointed out?


Nobody except you think he fails at everything, but he failed at guiding Sasuke, which in the context of this statement is 100% true.




> Versus JJ Obito. Take a look at Turrin's thread.


Tobirama had a mark.



> Yes, and then he killed them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes? Just like Itachi statement would be untrue if they were to fight since Itachi's feats are >>> Jiraiya.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I did.
> 
> 
> Why do you assume that I think Jiraya would fall to genjutsu???



Fair enough.




> And yet he was not caught in a genjutsu, no?



I don't know.

You assume he wasn't, but we don't really know.

*



			MY
		
Click to expand...

*


> logic is flawed?



Yes.

If you are feats only then there are fights you must accept are in favor of Itachi. Versus Hashirama for example.

Now if you're not feats only, disregard.




Zembie said:


> No one is arguing about genjutsu tho? Why the fuck are you arguing about genjutsu?




The genjutsu is simply a practical example of feats vs narrative.


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## Shazam (Jun 19, 2019)

Omote said:


> Jiraiya for sure, I've been here for a few years and even as recent as just a few days ago people still use the trash ass Databook Stats to wank him
> 
> Kakashi is Def a close second tho



Databook stats lately have been used for multiple characters and least of which include Jiraiya.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> If you are feats only then there are fights you must accept are in favor of Itachi. Versus Hashirama for example.
> 
> Now if you're not feats only, disregard.


It's like we are trying to say that statements need to be backed up by feats.....


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## Shazam (Jun 19, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Jiraiya and Kimimaro recently. Some examples:
> 
> 
> DMS Kakashi not guaranteed a win against Jiraiya
> ...



I want the link to the first


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Artistwannabe said:


> No offense but statements are not the best merit you should be going for in matchups *UNLESS* it's backed up. What now, Madara can solo Juubito?


This is my stance on the whole thing, you can't use statements only to decide which battle would be won, especially when contradictions and arguments using feats can be made


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> This is my stance on the whole thing, you can't use statements only to decide which battle would be won, especially when contradictions and arguments using feats can be made


"Did you even read the post you just quoted?" def applies to @ShinAkuma


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> It's like we are trying to say that statements need to be backed up by feats.....



Around and around we go WHERE WE STOP NOBODY KNOWS

Hashirama has no feats versus genjutsu.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Around and around we go WHERE WE STOP NOBODY KNOWS
> 
> Hashirama has no feats versus genjutsu.


He also has no feats falling to genjutsu


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## Shazam (Jun 19, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> SM Naruto clone reacted to V2 A3 and guys like Suigetsu easily reacted to V1 A4. So whats the problem ? Why a sage not able to react him when he has a motion barrier big enough to cover a huge area ?
> 
> And no one says that like reacting him in cqc or on the same ground. Check your info.
> 
> ...



I'm in agreement here


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 19, 2019)

@ShinAkuma Iruka said Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama, and Orochimaru said Part 1 Kabuto = Part 1 Kakashi.. Do we take those statements serious too even though feats wise it doesn't add up? Chararacters were full of shit sometimes, it happened alot


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## Shazam (Jun 19, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Bold is possible.
> Even reasonable Itachi fans accepted this at one point.



It's no reasonable to think Kakashi beats Itachi and yes that is wank at least Jiraiya has a statement alluding to mutual death


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

@ShinAkuma

can you give me a list of fiction you read/watch so I can give you several examples outside of Naruto(if they are not enough) to tell you why reliability on statements is limited since most of the times they exist to hype or open up possibilities to how things can turn out, or try to make us believe something

every time, what ACTUALLY happens >>>>>> what is said could possibly happen

did you watch GoT?

compare what was said to happen in the final war to what actually happened


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> This is my stance on the whole thing, you can't use statements only to decide which battle would be won, especially when contradictions and arguments using feats can be made



What qualifies as a "contradiction" and interpretation of "feats" is highly subjective, which is the point. Statements generally are not.

It's fine to use both but calling one subjective interpretation of feats and statements as "wank" is the issue that started this all.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> What qualifies as a "contradiction" and interpretation of "feats" is highly subjective, which is the point. Statements generally are not.
> 
> It's fine to use both but calling one subjective interpretation of feats and statements as "wank" is the issue that started this all.


Isn't that why we use both? So we don't get into WANK territory?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> He also has no feats falling to genjutsu



Do you consider this angle a valid argument versus Itachi genjutsu GG?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Isn't that why we use both? So we don't get into WANK territory?



Yes, but we have dudes in the thread saying that Jiraiya and Itachi being equals is wank.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Do you consider this angle a valid argument versus Itachi genjutsu GG?





Artistwannabe said:


> I did read what you said, and I responded accordingly. He has no feats against genjutsu but he also has no feats *FALLING* to genjutsu, from a *NARRATIVE* standpoint it would make sense that he would know better than to avoid it. The difference between those 2 things is that one is *DIRECTLY *contradicted later in the manga, while the other is not, capiche?


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Do you consider this angle a valid argument versus Itachi genjutsu GG?



it most definitely is

because Hashirama has feats against a superior Madara, fighting him several times and going at it for 24 hours, yet he never fell to a genjutsu to our knowledge, and even if he did off-panel, it was not GG

so yeah, that's a very wrong and invalid argument


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> @ShinAkuma
> 
> can you give me a list of fiction you read/watch so I can give you several examples outside of Naruto(if they are not enough) to tell you why reliability on statements is limited since most of the times they exist to hype or open up possibilities to how things can turn out, or try to make us believe something
> 
> ...



I am well aware.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes, but we have dudes in the thread saying that Jiraiya and Itachi being equals is wank.


By feats they are not equal, that is why when in a thread about SM Jiraiya vs Itachi I give a very respectable high-diff win for Itachi, still taking statements into account but not ignoring feats. Base Jiraiya beating Itachi is retarded tho and I know we would agree.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

The neverending circle continues.

The feats suggest Hashirama loves staring staring into sharingans.

To be clear - "*from a NARRATIVE standpoint it would make sense that he would know better than to avoid it*"

Yes, but the feats suggest he doesn't.

This is where you are accepting narrative intention over what has been shown.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> The neverending circle continues.
> 
> The feats suggest Hashirama loves staring staring into sharingans.
> 
> ...





Hardcore said:


> it most definitely is
> 
> because Hashirama has feats against a superior Madara, fighting him several times and going at it for 24 hours, y*et he never fell to a genjutsu to our knowledge, and even if he did off-panel, it was not GG*
> 
> so yeah, that's a very wrong and invalid argument


Too bad Hashi has no feats falling to genjutsu


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes, but the feats suggest he doesn't.


The feats don't suggest shit tho? Since THERE AREN'T any feats. That is why we are using the narrative to reach to that conclusion, how fucking hard is it to understand?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> it most definitely is



I suspect not.

Let's see.



> because Hashirama has feats against a superior Madara,



Is Madara superior in genjutsu?

Rhetorical question, he's not.

Hey there implication, how you doing.



> so yeah, that's a very wrong and invalid argument



Yeahno.


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 19, 2019)

Never thought I would actually give a Dislike rating to a ShinAkuma comment.. How did we get here?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Too bad Hashi has no feats falling to genjutsu



Hey man that's cool. 

Basically anybody who has never fallen under genjutsu is immune to it in the battledome - Artistwannabe 2019

I see ya fam.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> The feats don't suggest shit tho? Since THERE AREN'T any feats. That is why we are using the narrative to reach to that conclusion, how fucking hard is it to understand?



The "feats" in this case is Hashi staring into sharingans every chance he gets. 

Are you arguing that Hashi is immune to genjutsu because he has never been shown as caught in one?


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Hey man that's cool.
> 
> Basically anybody who has never fallen under genjutsu is immune to it in the battledome - Artistwannabe 2019
> 
> I see ya fam.


"Did you even read the post you just quoted?" re-read my post again:


Artistwannabe said:


> I did read what you said, and I responded accordingly. He has no feats against genjutsu but he also has no feats *FALLING* to genjutsu, from a *NARRATIVE* standpoint it would make sense that he would know better than to avoid it. The difference between those 2 things is that one is *DIRECTLY *contradicted later in the manga, while the other is not, capiche?


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> The "feats" in this case is Hashi staring into sharingans every chance he gets.
> 
> Are you arguing that Hashi is immune to genjutsu because he has never been shown as caught in one?


"Did you even read the post you just quoted?"


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> "Did you even read the post you just quoted?" re-read my post again:





Zembie said:


> "Did you even read the post you just quoted?"



I did, and I already covered this.

FLASHBACK TIME TO 10 MINUTES AGO!

The neverending circle continues.

The feats suggest Hashirama loves staring staring into sharingans.

To be clear - "*from a NARRATIVE standpoint it would make sense that he would know better than to avoid it*"

Yes, but the feats suggest he doesn't.

This is where you are accepting narrative intention over what has been shown.

Then you said - "No feats of being caught in genjutsu", to which the response is - Basically anybody who has never fallen under genjutsu is immune to it in the battledome - Artistwannabe 2019


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## Grinningfox (Jun 19, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Never thought I would actually give a Dislike rating to a ShinAkuma comment.. How did we get here?



I might be getting there too

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> To be clear - "*from a NARRATIVE standpoint it would make sense that he would know better than to avoid it*"
> 
> Yes, but the feats suggest he doesn't.
> 
> ...


Yes, when the feats are insufficient we use narrative intention, are you sure you can read?


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I did, and I already covered this.
> 
> FLASHBACK TIME TO 10 MINUTES AGO!
> 
> ...


"*from a NARRATIVE standpoint it would make sense that he would know better than to avoid it*"
*E X A C T L Y*, THERE ARE NO FEATS PROVING THE CONTRARY  This is why that is a legit argument, unlike "Basically anybody who has never fallen under genjutsu is immune to it in the battledome" since there is literally *NO ARGUMENT* to be made when no narrative implications, nor statements, nor feats exist.


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## Hayumi (Jun 19, 2019)

Sorry to change the topic off of this interesting jumble of retartedness, mostly coming from one person who I shall not name. 

 But anyways as to the topic of the thread,  I would say J-man but everyone already talked about him so imma say Kimimaro. Some people going as far as to say he's comfortably kage level is bs imo


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## AxelKross (Jun 19, 2019)

Sorry but under no circumstances save him slitting nagatos original dying bodys throat is jman beating 6 paths head on. But if u mean in the exact same situation then he still isn't winning unless deva decided not to use his powers at all again.


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## AxelKross (Jun 19, 2019)

okeechobee101 said:


> Sorry to change the topic off of this interesting jumble of retartedness, mostly coming from one person who I shall not name.
> 
> But anyways as to the topic of the thread,  I would say J-man but everyone already talked about him so imma say Kimimaro. Some people going as far as to say he's comfortably kage level is bs imo


I will never understand kage lvl Kimimaro.

Dude dies against genin and chunin and he is being wanked to kage lvl.

Itachi in the same situations fodderised orochimaru and cpuld have low diffed sasuke but everyone knows he is still just high kage lvl.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Yes, when the feats are insufficient we use narrative intention, are you sure you can read?



So staring into the sharingan is an insufficient amount of info to argue Itachi genjutsus Hashirama?



Artistwannabe said:


> "*from a NARRATIVE standpoint it would make sense that he would know better than to avoid it*"
> *E X A C T L Y*, THERE ARE NO FEATS PROVING THE CONTRARY  This is why that is a legit argument, unlike "Basically anybody who has never fallen under genjutsu is immune to it in the battledome" since there is literally *NO ARGUMENT* to be made when no narrative implications, nor statements, nor feats exist.



BUT HE'S NOT AVOIDING IT IS HE?

Is staring into every sharingan he ever saw "avoiding" it?

There is a criteria for avoiding sharingan genjutsu established by the manga - avoid eye contact. But we have Hashi doing the exact opposite on multiple occasions.

This is the point. Narrative intention is defeated by citing the multiple instances of Hashi making eye contact. By believing it wouldn't work on Hashi you accept narrative intent over "feats". How do you not see this?


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## Sufex (Jun 19, 2019)

okeechobee101 said:


> Sorry to change the topic off of this interesting jumble of retartedness, mostly coming from one person who I shall not name.
> 
> But anyways as to the topic of the thread,  I would say J-man but everyone already talked about him so imma say Kimimaro. Some people going as far as to say he's comfortably kage level is bs imo


Positively agree. Anything more than jonin level Kimimaro is wankery.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> So staring into the sharingan is an insufficient amount of info to argue Itachi genjutsus Hashirama?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"because Hashirama has feats against a superior Madara, fighting him several times and going at it for 24 hours,* yet he never fell to a genjutsu to our knowledge, and even if he did off-panel, it was not GG*"


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Is Madara superior in genjutsu?
> 
> Rhetorical question, he's not.
> 
> Hey there implication, how you doing.



you'll need to prove Itachi Genjutsu is in any way different and superior to Madara's

Madara pretty much is aware about all the tricks in the books as far as i know


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## Sufex (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> So staring into the sharingan is an insufficient amount of info to argue Itachi genjutsus Hashirama?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What they are saying is that a life time of fighting uchiha and consistently beating the strongest uchiha of all time is a feat against sharingan genjutsu in of itself. Which i agree with. We know madara was a prominent user as he used it in combat multiple times and has 9 tails as his pet.


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## Hayumi (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes, but we have dudes in the thread saying that Jiraiya and Itachi being equals is wank.


 Sorry for interrupting, but If we are talking about Base J-man then it sure as hell is wank. And regardless as mentioned by Zembie, Itachi has superior feats to SM J-man, and in a versus thread between the two, it's mostly speculation. Sooo to an extent it IS wank.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> "because Hashirama has feats against a superior Madara,



Is Madara's superior in genjutsu than Itachi?

The premise is predicated on the assumption that Madara is somehow superior to Itachi in genjutsu. The feats would suggest he is not.



Hardcore said:


> you'll need to prove Itachi Genjutsu is in any way different and superior to Madara's
> 
> Madara pretty much is aware about all the tricks in the books as far as i know



Does Madara have Tsukuyomi?

Itachi has been praised for his genjutsu skill and prowess.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

okeechobee101 said:


> Sorry for interrupting, but If we are talking about Base J-man then it sure as hell is wank. And regardless as mentioned by Zembie, Itachi has superior feats to SM J-man, and in a versus thread between the two, it's mostly speculation. Sooo to an extent it IS wank.


But......STATEMENTS


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Sufex said:


> What they are saying is that a life time of fighting uchiha and consistently beating the strongest uchiha of all time is a feat against sharingan genjutsu in of itself.



Which I would agree with also.

However is Madara as good as Itachi in genjutsu? Which of them has the better "feats" with genjutsu as it were?


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Does Madara have Tsukuyomi?



well he was the one who used IT, how can he use that if he doesn't know how to use Tsukuyomi

also- requires eye contact like other genjutsu


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Which I would agree with also.


Okay, we're done here.


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## Hayumi (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> But......STATEMENTS


 My bad, Itachi basically admitted inferiority to J man in part 1. Feats dont matter apparently.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

okeechobee101 said:


> My bad, Itachi basically admitted inferiority to J man in part 1. Feats dont matter apparently.


Exactly.


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## Sufex (Jun 19, 2019)

@


okeechobee101 said:


> My bad, Itachi basically admitted inferiority to J man in part 1. Feats dont matter apparently.


The thing about this is even within the context its not even good evidence. Its fact itachi was undercover and half the shit he said was a lie one way or another. Kisame even directly questions him as they are running.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> well he was the one who used IT, how can he use that if he doesn't know how to use Tsukuyomi



Uchiha stone tablet for one. 3rd eye for another.



> also- requires eye contact like other genjutsu



Sorry....what?


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Sorry....what?


Tsukuyomi requires eye contact.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Okay, we're done here.



My position has always been narrative intent over subjective feats, so.....



Zembie said:


> Tsukuyomi requires eye contact.



Infinite tsukuyomi?


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## Zero890 (Jun 19, 2019)

The masters. Jman isn't wanked these days.


----------



## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> My position has always been narrative intent over subjective feats, so.....


And most of the NBD has feats and narrative intent in mind when making an argument, so that's irrelevant.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Infinite tsukuyomi?


He was saying Tsukuyomi requires eye contact, just like normal sharingan genjutsu which Hashirama can fight if we're using narrative intent.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> And most of the NBD has feats and narrative intent in mind when making an argument, so that's irrelevant.



Whooooooosh

If you believe Hashi does not lose to Itachi via genjutsu GG it is because your are accepting narrative intent over feats. It's the entire point of what we have been talking about.


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Uchiha stone tablet for one. 3rd eye for another.



okay so basically another kind of genjutsu that also requires eye contact, similar to Madara's genjutsu in that regard




ShinAkuma said:


> Sorry....what?



Tsukuyomi requires eye contact, what's the issue, it's basically light travelling eye to eye.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Whooooooosh
> 
> If you believe Hashi does not lose to Itachi via genjutsu GG it is because your are accepting narrative intent over feats. It's the entire point of what we have been talking about.


There are no feats of Hashirama falling into any type of Genjutsu though, so pretty irrelevant


----------



## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Whooooooosh
> 
> If you believe Hashi does not lose to Itachi via genjutsu GG it is because your are accepting narrative intent over feats. It's the entire point of what we have been talking about.


There are no feats. Its obvious that we have to accept narrative intent since there AREN'T ANY FEATS.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> He was saying Tsukuyomi requires eye contact, just like normal sharingan genjutsu which Hashirama can fight if we're using narrative intent.



Tsukuyomi>>>>Sharingan genjutsu

Hashi has made eye contact on multiple occasions.


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> He was saying Tsukuyomi requires eye contact, just like normal sharingan genjutsu which Hashirama can fight if we're using narrative intent.



actually so does IT, it is just much more difficult to counter IT since light is globally coming from the moon, that's the reason sasuke covered naruto to disallow that light from entering, the mechanics are pretty similar


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Tsukuyomi>>>>Sharingan genjutsu
> 
> Hashi has made eye contact on multiple occasions.


Just because he made eye contact doesn't mean the Uchiha were using genjutsu tho.


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## Hayumi (Jun 19, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> The masters. Jman isn't wanked these days.


 Lmao it's people like you that dont think that he's wanked in the NBD, that wank him to begin with.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

okeechobee101 said:


> Lmao it's people like you that dont think that he's wanked in the NBD, that wank him to begin with.


BUT STATEMENTS DOE


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Just because he made eye contact doesn't mean the Uchiha were using genjutsu tho.



Ok, so do you feel there is a timeframe on activating genjutsu? I was under the impression one only needed to prove eye contact was possible in order to argue genjutsu GG?



Artistwannabe said:


> There are no feats of Hashirama falling into any type of Genjutsu though, so pretty irrelevant





Zembie said:


> There are no feats. Its obvious that we have to accept narrative intent since there AREN'T ANY FEATS.



The "feat" we have here is Hashi making eye contact.


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok, so do you feel there is a timeframe on activating genjutsu? I was under the impression one only needed to prove eye contact was possible in order to argue genjutsu GG?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But he's not caught in any genjutsu, why?


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## Zero890 (Jun 19, 2019)

@Mad Scientist @Santoryu @Architect @Crimson Flam3s the cult of Kakashi dominate the NBD now.


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 19, 2019)

Sigh


Anyways.. Of course you've got the founders and the Sanin who will always be the most wanked in the NBD, but most recently Gaiden Kakashi/Part 1 Kakashi or Part 1 Neji are hands down the most wanked besides them


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## Hayumi (Jun 19, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> @Mad Scientist @Santoryu @Architect @Crimson Flam3s the cult of Kakashi dominate the NBD now.


 Sis. By cult of Kakashi you mean the people that actually look at feats right? Because 90 percent of J man wankers definitely don't.


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok, so do you feel there is a timeframe on activating genjutsu? I was under the impression one only needed to prove eye contact was possible in order to argue genjutsu GG?


Never argued about this, no idea why you are mentioning it.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> actually so does IT,



Eye contact with who?

We have panels of peeps blatantly not looking at the moon.



> it is just much more difficult to counter IT since light is globally coming from the moon, that's the reason sasuke covered naruto to disallow that light from entering, the mechanics are pretty similar



Come on, you know IT is not like other genjutsus. For one it doesn't affect the Edo's. It obviously not intended to act like a standard ocular genjutsu.


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## Zero890 (Jun 19, 2019)

okeechobee101 said:


> Sis. By cult of Kakashi you mean the people that actually look at feats right? Because 90 percent of J man wankers definitely don't.



Im a Jman wanker and I look at feats

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> But he's not caught in any genjutsu, why?



Maybe those Uchiha aren't as good at genjutsu as our solo god Itachi?



Zembie said:


> Never argued about this, no idea why you are mentioning it.


It's an example of feats vs narrative intent.

It doesn't matter that you are arguing it, the point is how do you reconcile the opposing logic within this example. It's to show that the provisions that are made in the "wank" vs "feats" debate is not as logically sound as some would believe.


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## Hayumi (Jun 19, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> Im a Jman wanker and I look at feats


 You must be an extreme rarity then. But...I thought you said J-man wasn't wanked?


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## Zembie (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> It doesn't matter that you are arguing it, the point is how do you reconcile the opposing logic within this example. It's to show that the provisions that are made in the "wank" vs "feats" debate is not as logically sound as some would believe.


Or you can use both feats and authorial intent in debates, as most people do.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Shinakumas usually pretty reasonable so im gonna ask whats this Hashirama genjutsu thing about?



The Hashirama genjutsu thing is simply a way to manifest the "feats" vs "narrative" argument in a manner more easily digestible. (or so I thought lol)


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## Sufex (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> The Hashirama genjutsu thing is simply a way to manifest the "feats" vs "narrative" argument in a manner more easily digestible. (or so I thought lol)


Both feats and narrative put hashirama over sharingan genjutsu tho, generally speaking


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## Zero890 (Jun 19, 2019)

okeechobee101 said:


> You must be an extreme rarity then. But...I thought you said J-man wasn't wanked?



I feel that I have been inactive, that is why there has not been a wank


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Eye contact with who?
> 
> We have panels of peeps blatantly not looking at the moon.
> 
> ...



why would they need to look at the moon, do you need to look at the sun for sunlight to reach you? literally the same thing, i don't understand the problem, i already said that's why it's harder to counter.

yeah, and did Tsukuyomi ever affect edos?


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## Hayumi (Jun 19, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> I feel that I have been inactive, that is why there has not been a wank


 There are definitely a lot of hardcore wankers filling in your abscense trust me lol


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## Sufex (Jun 19, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> why would they need to look at the moon, do you need to look at the sun for sunlight to reach you? literally the same thing, i don't understand the problem, i already said that's why it's harder to counter.
> 
> yeah, and did Tsukuyomi ever affect edos?


It was never used against edos. However Sharingan genjutsu and koto work on edos so theres no reason tysuknomi won't either.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

Sufex said:


> It was never used against edos. However Sharingan genjutsu and koto work on edos so theres no reason tysuknomi won't either.



okay, so tsukuyomi falls in that bracket then, we should be done


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Or you can use both feats and authorial intent in debates, as most people do.



I do. That is the point. Holyfuckingshit.

Feats - Hashi staring into eyes. Itachi best genjutsu dude ever. Tsukuyomi most powerful ocular genjutsu.

The feats suggest that Itachi would have the opportunity to hit Tsukuyomi on Hashi. However narratively I don't see this ever happening.

The narrative and the feats are opposed. Is it wank to see Hashi as beating Itachi?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> why would they need to look at the moon, do you need to look at the sun for sunlight to reach you? literally the same thing, i don't understand the problem, i already said that's why it's harder to counter.



You said eye contact (the eye is the moon in this case) was required. I'm just going where your premise takes us.



> yeah, and did Tsukuyomi ever affect edos?



Edo's never got hit with Itachi's tsukuyomi, however both sound and ocular genjutsus worked on edo's.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Both feats and narrative put hashirama over sharingan genjutsu tho, generally speaking



Yes, but as we know tsukuyomi is not a regular sharingan genjutsu.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I'm in agreement here


Shocking!!!!!


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Shocking!!!!!



Look....can we just all agree that Hidan would run shop all over base Gai in taijutsu?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 19, 2019)

What's with this Sannin vs Masters war lately?

What's more surprising is that it's always  Sannin fans starting salty threads or comments.

No Masters fan that I know of tries to start so much shit around here.

Must suck to live and be stuck to P1 statements and portrayal so I can't blame em, gotta find a way to vent


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> It increases sensing. Not reactions.


ı dont even need to say anything to that man  omg.


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## Trojan (Jun 19, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> @Mad Scientist @Santoryu @Architect @Crimson Flam3s the cult of Kakashi dominate the NBD now.


How is @Hasan not part of a Kakashi cult? lol

------
anyway, since the OP hasn't included Tobirama yet. The most wanked out of the poll is itachi, obviously. However, the most disgusting is Kimmimaro, it is beyond me how did that clown manage to get the NBD to ride on his dick for so long for merely taking on a freaking Genin! 


Meanwhile, Jman who took on Pain cannot defeat anyone in the NBD's eyes!

Reactions: Like 1


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## JayK (Jun 19, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Jman who got shit on by Pain


fix'd for clarity


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## Trojan (Jun 19, 2019)

JayK said:


> fix'd for clarity


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> ı dont even need to say anything to that man  omg.


It's better if you don't. 
I don't want to see you embarrassing yourself any further..


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Look....can we just all agree that Hidan would run shop all over base Gai in taijutsu?


Excepting the ever so unstoppable blood switch experiment, Hidan can handle anything.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Excepting the ever so unstoppable blood switch experiment, Hidan can handle anything.



Gai is not a scientist unfortunately.


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

the Sasori BS also deserves an honorable mention


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

seriously 1 troll statement from Deidara to annoy Naruto, and Sasori is suddenly at the top of the Akatsuki


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> seriously 1 troll statement from Deidara to annoy Naruto, and Sasori is suddenly at the top of the Akatsuki



Sasori is the superior artist by far tho.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Sasori is the superior artist by far tho.


I don’t know about that. Art is an explosion.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I don’t know about that. Art is an explosion.



I bet you say that to all the girls.


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## Kisaitaparadise (Jun 19, 2019)

SMH.....


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## Omote (Jun 19, 2019)

Jiraiya is irrelevant fodder that gets neg diffed by KCM Naruto, Minato Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama

Imagine being a top tier character...but only in 2006


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## Ishmael (Jun 19, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> MS WA Kakashi would DESTROY Pain's entire NF Career.



Negative lmao. Unless he opts to kamui them one by one which is bad for him because he could be killed right then and there trying to do that... He losses. 

Madara already showed us the counter to kamuis jump is to attack and not let any sort of jump off take place.... 6 bodies, paths like asura, deva especially and the animal path lurking around. Plus the paths that'll engage in cqc... yeah kakashi dies.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 19, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Must suck to live and be stuck to P1 statements and portrayal so I can't blame em, gotta find a way to vent



 I showed you a P2 statement of Kakashi admitting inferiority to Jiraiya and then you ran away lol.  One Sharingan Kakashi is definitely wanked when the character himself says that he cannot stand up to the Sannin yet NBDers claim otherwise.


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## Ishmael (Jun 19, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> We've also established just how fast 7G Gai was and how he momentarily pressured 10 Tails Jinchuuriki Madara



Wha.....


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## Ishmael (Jun 19, 2019)

Oh this thread I can tell is about to be fucking good lmfaooo, I'll just read everything through and post the comments and replies later.


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## Ishmael (Jun 19, 2019)

Alright I lied lmfao all these butt hurt ass sannin fans

"WA KAKASHI HIS WANK IS DISGUSTING" 
"THE MOST WANKED ON THIS FORUM ARE THE MASTERS BY FAR".....
"OMG KAKASHI THIS...OMG KAKASHI THAT"...

yeah yeah yeah... stop that complaining and read the manga over bitch. 

The only sannin he losses to more times than not is oro and WA kakashi is a solid mid kage without kamui, he can jump a tier and combat certain high kages when  he uses it. 

That's what happens when you're not a one trick pony and a pretty versatile ninja.

Lmao surprised the hebi sasuke haters didn't mention him


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## Serene Grace (Jun 19, 2019)

Samael said:


> Wha.....


right and bro get this there are more people that think this, and he's 100% serious when he says this shit

losing faith in this place

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 19, 2019)

@Santoryu 

Why is it so offensive that I simply point out the truth? Kakashi by his own admission is below the Sannin


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> right and bro get this there are more people that think this, and he's 100% serious when he says this shit
> 
> losing faith in this place


Guy needs 8g for Madara, needs 7 for Juubito. Simple logic, he pressured Madara, he would roast juubito


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## Serene Grace (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Guy needs 8g for Madara, needs 7 for Juubito. Simple logic, he pressured Madara, he would roast juubito


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


>


It adds up, no?


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## Serene Grace (Jun 19, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> It adds up, no?


ofc 7g guy has always been god tier 

He stomped the guy who was by statements superior to Nagato in chakra reserves


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 19, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> ofc 7g guy has always been god tier
> 
> He stomped the guy who was by statements superior to Nagato in chakra reserves


You finally get it.


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## MarF (Jun 19, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> it's no worse than saying Itachi >Pain which several posters claim.
> 
> The recent pro Kimimaro and Jiraiya claims are much worse than Kakashi >Pain.



Actually, yes it is. Pain himself admitted that Jiraiya could have beaten him under very specific circumstances. Itachi was always portrayed to be either equal or superior to Jiraiya. There is at least some basis for Itachi potentially winning, no matter how flimsy the argument would be(i wouldn't argue for Itachi winning, btw), it's still better than WA Kakashi > Pain.

Look at the list of things Pain did in the PA in my post that you quoted. Kakashi would have serious issues accomplishing even a single thing on that list, let alone doing all of them back to back with no rest.

Pain arc Kakashi considered fighting all six paths as insane, based on facing two of them and that was a Kakashi who knew nothing about Deva's real power output. Kakashi's growth between then and the WA isn't big enough to warrant placing him above Pain.


Healthy Kimimaro being a low to mid kage around the same level as BoS Sasuke was a popular opinion here years ago. There's nothing recent about it. Depending on how you interpret certain statements it's not even farfetched.


If you're refering to Jiraiya vs V2 EI, then I wouldn't even call that wanking. While I don't think Jiraiya can react to Ei's max speed at close range, I also consider them to be both around the same overall tier. Just like I consider Itachi to be around the same tier as Jiraiya, even if I put his living self above SM Jiraiya in a 1 vs 1 fight.


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## Trojan (Jun 19, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> right and bro get this there are more people that think this, and he's 100% serious when he says this shit
> 
> losing faith in this place


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## Kisaitaparadise (Jun 19, 2019)

No cap..... Y'all some hating ass people... Its OK tho cause I am too...


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 19, 2019)

MarF said:


> Actually, yes it is. Pain himself admitted that Jiraiya could have beaten him under very specific circumstances. Itachi was always portrayed to be either equal or superior to Jiraiya. There is at least some basis for Itachi potentially winning, no matter how flimsy the argument would be(i wouldn't argue for Itachi winning, btw), it's still better than WA Kakashi > Pain.
> 
> Look at the list of things Pain did in the PA in my post that you quoted. Kakashi would have serious issues accomplishing even a single thing on that list, let alone doing all of them back to back with no rest.
> 
> ...



Holy shit a reasonable post!


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jun 19, 2019)

Can I vote for a technique instead of a character?

If so I vote for sharingan genjutsu(3t specifically).

One of my favorite moments in the manga is Sasuke staring A4 in the eyes and A4 basically saying "get that weak shit out of my face".

*Link Removed*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jun 19, 2019)

The Masters obviously


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## Ishmael (Jun 19, 2019)

Tanto said:


> Ay 4 is definitely overrated right now. In another Thread I saw ppl  that he could blitz Sage Jiraiya and that he wouldn’t be able to react



What's jiraiyas top reaction feat in sage mode?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 19, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I showed you a P2 statement of Kakashi admitting inferiority to Jiraiya and then you ran away lol.  One Sharingan Kakashi is definitely wanked when the character himself says that he cannot stand up to the Sannin yet NBDers claim otherwise.



I don't even know who you are or what you conversation are referring to.

All Jiraiya references/comments ended long before the WA so whatever your point is, it's pointless because most refer to WA Kakashi as his strongest non aspull P2 Incarnation.

I can see you triggered by my comment so I must have gotten you good

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> The Masters obviously


The feats don’t lie, my friend.


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## Ishmael (Jun 19, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> The feats don’t lie, my friend.



They take portrayal and hype over that... stop wasting your time


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 19, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Can I vote for a technique instead of a character?
> 
> If so I vote for sharingan genjutsu(3t specifically).
> 
> ...


But did A4 mean he's immune to Sharingan genjutsu or that he's just not dumb enough to make eye contact?


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## Grinningfox (Jun 19, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> But did A4 mean he's immune to Sharingan genjutsu or that he's just not dumb enough to make eye contact?



Seemed like they were making eye contact


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

Samael said:


> They take portrayal and hype over that... stop wasting your time


The funny thing is that portrayal and hype are still on their side (although more for Gai than Kakashi).


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> @Mad Scientist @Santoryu @Architect @Crimson Flam3s the cult of Kakashi dominate the NBD now.



Not really. Kakashi (and many other characters actually) are underrated _in the NBD_. The only reason people think Kakashi is being overrated is because recently there has been more popularity for him in the NBD and people losing to some very well-read posters.

People have read parts of the manga wrong as well (largely Kishimoto's fault but true nonetheless). For example, they thought Kakashi's Raikiri just bounced off lol when that 3rd panel was actually a Raiton Backhand. Contrast this to Orochimaru who was actually able to punch KN4 Naruto briefly, and people think KN4 is somehow that much stronger than the V2 Jins, not to mention KN4 taking his time to lift his chakra arms into the air, whereas the V2 Jins did it much quicker.

On a side note, people have refused to believe 7G Gai's travelling speed despite on-panel manga evidence. 

I've read some great arguments from good posters supporting different characters and it's really kept me on my toes and I like the NBD for that. If it was just Kakashi-oriented, that would be a little boring. People also underrate intelligence and fatigue as battle conditions and never seem to talk about them. Especially fatigue, that is massively underrated - I suppose that's in the same vein as illness - though in Kimimaro's case, I'll need to re-read that to see how he might scale. Because if he's ill to the extent of body failure, I'll have to scale him very highly (and that'd be reasonable) but if the evidence suggests he was still performing at a reasonable level, I'd scale a healthy Kimimaro a little less highly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

Samael said:


> Negative lmao. Unless he opts to kamui them one by one which is bad for him because he could be killed right then and there trying to do that... He losses.
> 
> Madara already showed us the counter to kamuis jump is to attack and not let any sort of jump off take place.... 6 bodies, paths like asura, deva especially and the animal path lurking around. Plus the paths that'll engage in cqc... yeah kakashi dies.


You're seriously scaling them to evading Kamui-level speed? Despite them struggling against evading a Rasenshuriken and an SM Naruto? Dude, Kamui is faster than Amaterasu, but even if for argument's sake it wasn't, it can be used more times than it by Kakashi and he's a mastermind who'll do whatever it takes, especially when he realises this was the guy who killed him last time.

I might be completely wrong (and at least I admit that), but you're gonna have to prove Deva Path is much faster than Kamui to even hope to think he'd win against a WA MS Kakashi. I'll admit Kamui is hax; why do you think they had to nerf the masters by making them heavily fatigued?


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

Samael said:


> Wha.....


Dude, I've been down this rabbit hole already. I'll PM you it, and please don't revive that thread unless you have read everything and have some new insight or a different interpretation.


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## Hardcore (Jun 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Sasori is the superior artist by far tho.



nope, nothing superior about a puppeteer, so weird tbh


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## Ishmael (Jun 19, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> @Mad Scientist @Santoryu @Architect @Crimson Flam3s the cult of Kakashi dominate the NBD now.



All are really good posters. 

Flam3s and San might not try anymore like they used to but @Mad Scientist usually has nice detailed post and @Architect there's legit nothing he's posted that I haven't liked even when going against my own view. Dudes like that are truly quality posters.


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## Ishmael (Jun 19, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> You're seriously scaling them to evading Kamui-level speed? Despite them struggling against evading a Rasenshuriken and an SM Naruto? Dude, Kamui is faster than Amaterasu, but even if for argument's sake it wasn't, it can be used more times than it by Kakashi and he's a mastermind who'll do whatever it takes, especially when he realises this was the guy who killed him last time.
> 
> I might be completely wrong (and at least I admit that), but you're gonna have to prove Deva Path is much faster than Kamui to even hope to think he'd win against a WA MS Kakashi. I'll admit Kamui is hax; why do you think they had to nerf the masters by making them heavily fatigued?



Make the thread.


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## Ishmael (Jun 19, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Dude, I've been down this rabbit hole already. I'll PM you it, and please don't revive that thread unless you have read everything and have some new insight or a different interpretation.



Nah madara was casually dodging those strikes from Gai.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

Samael said:


> All are really good posters.
> 
> Flam3s and San might not try anymore like they used to but @Mad Scientist usually has nice detailed post and @Architect there's legit nothing he's posted that I haven't liked even when going against my own view. Dudes like that are truly quality posters.


Thanks! 



Samael said:


> Make the thread.


Not right now. There's still more research etc. to do and I haven't read enough things yet. Like I said, I might be completely wrong but the time will come when a thread like that is made by me when I'm ready to go ballistic. 



Samael said:


> Nah madara was casually dodging those strikes from Gai.


This has been refuted in that thread.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 19, 2019)

Genuinely not Jiraiya lately, hes still wanked, but not the worst around lately.

THAT honor goes to Kakashi or Gai 

Gonna go with Gai due to the stupidity that was SEVERAL PEOPLE all advocating that he could genuinely throw down with and "surprise/blitz" JJs...


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## Symmetry (Jun 19, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> those two alone are huge changes for two reasons



I agree. I haven’t said anything to contradict that. I believe that because his stamina got buffed to such a crazy amount that everyone assumes everything else did too, which I don’t agree with




Santoryu said:


> Kamui is Kakashi's most powerful technique and it's arguably the most hax and dangerous Mangekyo-Sharingan ability in the manga.



Also agree.




Santoryu said:


> Since Part 1, using the Sharingan in conjunction with high level jutsu for long duration has been a weakness for Kakashi. It's one of the few things that stopped him from achieving "Kage level" some would argue.



I always assumed kakashi was low kage at any point in the series (besides WA)



Santoryu said:


> We know for a fact that Kakashi's speed did improve in the databook from them, and we also know that he started training due to being rusty and unfit.



Data book stats mean nothing but yes he did get faster. Everyone in general got buffed in shippuden. 




Santoryu said:


> A further problem is this. If Haku has the necessary speed to blitz Kakashi; why is the best he could only muster was intervene between Kakashi's attack and Zabuza, thereby sacrificing himself, merely to make an opening for Zabuza, which he failed to capitalise on in both the wave and war arc. It's a narrative parallel, not indicative of "Haku blitz" speed.
> 
> If you still don't buy my argument, consider the following:
> 
> ...



Here’s the thing about the haku blitz. I don’t think anyone genuinely believes kakashi is slower then haku. But Kakashi has a sharingan precog man, like he should have seen it coming. In all rights it’s just Kishimoto being lazy ah because kakashi should have seem it that’s why he has the sharingan. However, the fact that haku was able to do anything about that raikiri at all does account for something. Kakashi is travelling in a straight line, so it’s a very linear path and that’s probably why haku got the chance to do that. Plot also had to make haku get stabbed for the symbolism, even if to do so Kishimoto just outright ignored sharingan precog. Although his sharingan fails him once more against Zabuza when he gets cut. Yes he was surprised that haku blitzed him (which is stupid but whatever), but he once again had sharingan precog, and he still got hit. By all means this shouldn’t have happened, but it did and right after the haku thing. I don’t take these two things and think kakashi is slower then haku or Zabuza. But what I do think is that these scans kind of serve to buffer kakashi, that his sharingan precog is not invincible. With this in mind I just cannot in good faith place his speed any higher then hebi Sasuke. 


These two things ensure that Kakashi is kept from the more speedier characters, but his other showings keep his speed viable. WA kakashi is definetly fast, but these two events between haku and Zabuza are what stop him on my opinion from going farther then hebi sasuke in speed. This isn’t necessarily bad, he I sasuke in his own is very fast, but this makes sure he doesn’t start contesting the likes of itachi and such in speed. 




Santoryu said:


> his Sharingan-skill progressively got better, which we know plays a role in CQC, thus making his moves more efficient, which might look as if he's faster.




This I agree with, although as stated earlier it’s not invincible


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## Symmetry (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> No one ever says that.
> And Jiraiya didn't blitz Kisame. That's not a blitz.
> It's an interception. Both are different.
> Sixth gate gai didn't want to blitz Kisame because he had more pressing matters. He wanted to take out the sharks first.



But in all honesty if we take Gai’s feats at face value sixth gate gai should have ass raped Kisame instantly. Fuck it fourth gates gai should have when you see the shit he did in the war.


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## Symmetry (Jun 19, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> If anything, Gai is underrated. Kishimoto beat us over the head with the fact that Gai is among the best ninja in the series over and over again.




I mean kishi beat us over the head about the sanin too but then the fucking WA happened


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 19, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> SEVERAL PEOPLE all advocating that he could genuinely throw down with and "surprise/blitz" JJs...


Show me one person that says this.. None of us that use 7th gate Gai pushing back Juubi Madara as a legitimate feat think Juubi Madara was actually serious


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## Grinningfox (Jun 19, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Show me one person that says this.. None of us that use 7th gate Gai pushing back Juubi Madara as a legitimate feat think Juubi Madara was actually serious



You’d be surprised


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I mean kishi beat us over the head about the sanin too but then the fucking WA happened


The difference is that Gai has the feats to back it up. Also, the Sannin are formidable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> But in all honesty if we take Gai’s feats at face value sixth gate gai should have ass raped Kisame instantly. Fuck it fourth gates gai should have when you see the shit he did in the war.


He did. I like Kisame. He’s my favorite Akatsuki member, but 6 Gates Gai crushed him. 30% Kisame was Kisame in every way except for his chakra reserves and maybe his stamina.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 19, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Genuinely not Jiraiya lately, hes still wanked, but not the worst around lately.
> 
> THAT honor goes to Kakashi or Gai
> 
> Gonna go with Gai due to the stupidity that was SEVERAL PEOPLE all advocating that he could genuinely throw down with and "surprise/blitz" JJs...


Did someone actually say 7G Gai could "blitz" JJ Mads though?



MaruUchiha said:


> Show me one person that says this.. None of us that use 7th gate Gai pushing back Juubi Madara as a legitimate feat think Juubi Madara was actually serious





Grinningfox said:


> You’d be surprised


Maru and fox, I might be in my own boat here (so feel free to sink it), but I don't see how JJ Mads _wasn't _serious about killing Gai at the point of consecutive burst movement.


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## Grinningfox (Jun 19, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Did someone actually say 7G Gai could "blitz" JJ Mads though?
> 
> 
> 
> Maru and fox, I might be in my own boat here (so feel free to sink it), but I don't see how JJ Mads _wasn't _serious about killing Gai at the point of consecutive burst movement.



What may be happening is a error in communication and poor timing

You’d have to elaborate on your meaning of pressured for 1

2) you’d have to explain how that extrapolate’s to Gai in other battles


3) prove it’s not an outlier


As for the poor timing , we just came off of the Turrin saga so we may be jaded

Also you’d have to tie it back into the narrative

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Jun 19, 2019)

Gai against Juubidara outside of the 8th Gate is an obsolete argument. We cant quantify how much Juubidara was trying.


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## JayK (Jun 19, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> losing faith in this place


I heard KmC is a good site.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> But in all honesty if we take Gai’s feats at face value sixth gate gai should have ass raped Kisame instantly. Fuck it fourth gates gai should have when you see the shit he did in the war.


But he didn't want to. 
Can't you get it???
Why would he rape someone when he didn't want to ??


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## Symmetry (Jun 19, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> But he didn't want to.
> Can't you get it???
> Why would he rape someone when he didn't want to ??



Why didn’t he want to?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Why didn’t he want to?


Cause while he landed there, Kisame sent out a bunch ton of sharks. His priority moved from kisame to the Intel sharks.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 19, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I don't even know who you are or what you conversation are referring to.
> 
> All Jiraiya references/comments ended long before the WA so whatever your point is, it's pointless because most refer to WA Kakashi as his strongest non aspull P2 Incarnation.
> 
> I can see you triggered by my comment so I must have gotten you good



Hahaha  I remember you well man.   I don't remember which thread it was or what the context was  but I can never forget those who run away from me lol. WA  One MS Kakashi is exactly the same Kakashi that admitted inferiority to Jiraiya lol. 

DMS Kakashi  beating Jiraiya makes sense and is totally logical. He has stat upgrades, the full arsenal of kamui, and a Perfect Susano'o, all on top of everything else he already had. All things that Jiraiya has no experience against nor would he expect from someone who shit his pants in front of Orochimaru.


but to say that any other version of Kakashi can win against Jiraiya is going against  feats and Kakashi's own confessions.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 20, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Hahaha  I remember you well man.   I don't remember which thread it was or what the context was  but I can never forget those who run away from me lol. WA  One MS Kakashi is exactly the same Kakashi that admitted inferiority to Jiraiya lol.
> 
> DMS Kakashi  beating Jiraiya makes sense and is totally logical. He has stat upgrades, the full arsenal of kamui, and a Perfect Susano'o, all on top of everything else he already had. All things that Jiraiya has no experience against nor would he expect from someone who shit his pants in front of Orochimaru.
> 
> ...



Why don't you post this panel so I can laugh at it again some more


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## Kisaitaparadise (Jun 20, 2019)

Y'all some bad bitches


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 20, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> -Yes the skill argument. Which was always relevant. It was even shown all over the place in the Nagato vs Itachi battle. I know I am 100% right.



Skill at what? Is it using the MS? Taijutsu? Ninjutsu? Genjutsu? Bukijutsu?Breaking down an opponent? What specifically are you referring to? You can just say it was shown all over the place because none of if specifically spell out what you are trying to say Itachi is more skilled than Nagato.



> Nagato was absolutely a benchmark for Naruto. UZUMAKI Nagato... T


Karin is an Uzumaki as well is she a benchmark? Perhaps you are mistaken by what it takes to be a benchmark. Naruto is a Jinchuuriki; Nagato uses a Dojutsu. To be a benchmark you at least requires you to encapsulate some aspects of set characters fighting style. Benchmarks are usually tied to a character via Kinship, Teacher, and is usually foreshadowed. Nagato was no one's benchmark because he wasn't a bar for anyone, as he wasn't the pinnacle of his power up or approach to battle.



> he boy Jiraiya initially saw as the hero from his prophecy but turned into anti-Naruto and the role shifted to Naruto instead. It was as much the passing of a torch as Sasuke inheriting Itachi's abilities was.


That doesn't make one a benchmark. That would be more akin to a rival.

Pupils of the same teacher....check
Competing for the same role as the child of prophecy.

Even you reasoning for both being a benchmark isn't consistent for both. The child of prophecy and passing that mantle to Naruto isn't the same as Sasuke inheriting abilities from Itachi. The child of prophecy wasn't even a Major plot point after the Konoha invasion; the closes thing to it was Naruto being deem the chosen by the sage, but Sasuke was too? Is Sasuke Naruto's Benchmark? And I think you need to reread the manga Sasuke didn't inherit Itachi's abilities. The only thing that coincide in their arsenal is Amaterasu and Susano'o....And their approach to the later is different. Where they do coincide is both utilizing the MS as a power up. And Itachi did serve as a Blueprint for how Sasuke was to become at one point. Which is what makes him a benchmark. Nagato was never intended to showcase the potential for what Naruto was supposed to become either in term of power or story. Who gained access to the Rinnegan, who was the character would go against Naruto Idea in the end? Here's a hint; He's the rival to the main character. And once again Nagato wasn't a benchmark for Sasuke because he wasn't the strongest Rinnegan user in the manga, and Madara had both access to the EMS and Rinnegan, the two power ups in which Sasuke would utilize to rival Naruto. Nagato was no more a benchmark for Sasuke than Bee was to Naruto.



> Nagato~Healthy Itachi>six paths of pain~sick Itachi. Plain and simple.


Even you don't believe that. There is no such thing as Healthy Itachi, another calling card of the typical Itachi fanboy, you have Part 1 Itachi, Part 2 Itachi, and Edo Itachi. Nagato wasn't Healthy either, shall we supplement a Healthy/Mobile Nagato into the manga?


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 20, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Why don't you post this panel so I can laugh at it again some more



I will do so in several hours. Gotta catch some zzz's

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Jun 20, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> @Santoryu
> 
> Why is it so offensive that I simply point out the truth? Kakashi by his own admission is below the Sannin



Not necessarily since at the time Kakashi said that he still couldn't control the Kamui well which can be huge in any battle.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Is Madara's superior in genjutsu than Itachi?
> 
> The premise is predicated on the assumption that Madara is somehow superior to Itachi in genjutsu. The feats would suggest he is not.
> 
> ...



Depends how you define being "superior in genjutsu". Itachi is definitely more skilled and versatile in genjutsu but given that Madara has a lot more chakra you could definitely make a case for him having more powerful genjutsu since genjutsu resistance still requires you to overpower the caster's chakra.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 20, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Why don't you post this panel so I can laugh at it again some more





Kakashi admits inferiority. This Is ONE MS Kakashi. Same exact Kakashi as in the war arc. He was struggling against 2 paths. Whereas injured  Base Jiraiya fought all 6. And I can prove it:


This is what the the battlefield looks like when Ashura punts Jiraiya outside into the water:

*Spoiler*: _Before Jiraiya fights ALL 6 PATHS_ 

















And this is the battlefield after INJURED BASE Jiiraiya made a valiant last stand against ALL SIX PATHS.  The fact that he could hold on enough and drag one Path into his barrier under the watchful eyes of all 6 paths going all out to kill jiraiya is why Kakashi admited inferiority. At full health Kakashi could barely take on two despite backup coming to help him.



*Spoiler*: _Battlefield After BASE Jiraiya fights all 6 paths_ 

















Jiraiya > One Ms Kakashi

In your rebuttal, thing long and hard about this:
What's more impressive? Kakashi dying to two pains despite having more knowledge than Jiraiya started out with and backup,  OR Jiraiya defeating 3 pains, apparently all of animal path's summons, and then still giving ALL SIX Paths a tough fight such that he was able to separate one from all the others and then kill it in his barrier, before finally going down.

The only difference between  Pain Arc One MS Kakashi and War Arc One MSKakashi is plot induced stamina upgrade, which Jiraiya would have gotten as well if he lived long enough to be in the War Arc.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 20, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> The only difference between  Pain Arc One MS Kakashi and War Arc One MSKakashi is plot induced stamina upgrade, which Jiraiya would have gotten as well if he lived long enough to be in the War Arc.



Jiraiya wouldn't even need a stamina upgrade.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 20, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> *Kakashi admits inferiority. This Is ONE MS Kakashi. Same exact Kakashi as in the war arc.*



I gonna stop you right here. Everything you just said is wrong by your own account, without mentioning the logic of it. 



> The *only difference* between  Pain Arc One MS Kakashi and War Arc One MSKakashi is plot induced stamina upgrade, which Jiraiya would have gotten as well if he lived long enough to be in the War Arc.



So there is a difference *according to you*.

Guess I expected too much, but I'll play. 

His stamina has always been his greatest weakness so an upgrade in that department is huge, specially when it means he can use Kamui more freely, which he did, so that's 2 huge upgrades right there. Without accounting for better feats in the WA. 

Jman is superior to PA Kakashi and nothing more. 

Kakashi's feats are also impressive enough that he feinted the 2 strongest paths, disabled one with Raiton clone and was about to Blindside Deva with Raikiri before Akimichi spooked him away so that alone puts him not far behind.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Jiraiya wouldn't even need a stamina upgrade.


Cause he dead.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 20, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Cause he dead.



Is he really tho?

Boruto to the rescue...?


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## Shazam (Jun 20, 2019)

Actually surprised the combined Masters votes are higher than the combined listed sannin votes

Looks like people are realizing how much wanking is going on with them

Kakashi is not > Pain 
Gai is not > EMS Sasuke 
Continue..


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Is he really tho?
> 
> Boruto to the rescue...?


No.. 
Naruto will kill him this time if he tries to get boruto naked.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 20, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> No..
> Naruto will kill him this time if he tries to get boruto naked.



I wonder if Lee will try and hook up Boruto with a "free" green jumpsuit?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Actually surprised the combined Masters votes are higher than the combined listed sannin votes
> 
> Looks like people are realizing how much wanking is going on with them
> 
> ...


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I wonder if Lee will try and hook up Boruto with a "free" green jumpsuit?


If it's free, Boruto will take it. And he'll like it.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 20, 2019)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> If it's free, Boruto will take it. And he'll like it.



Springtime of youth INCOMING


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Springtime of youth INCOMING


In*comming
*


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Actually surprised the combined Masters votes are higher than the combined listed sannin votes
> 
> Looks like people are realizing how much wanking is going on with them
> 
> ...



That's because you conveniently forgot to put Tsunade in there. 

"She dodges and regenerates from everything the opponent dishes out while the opponent just stands there watching, then _eventually_ turns him into red mist"
Kappa

Not surprised this is just another Sannin vs Master War salty thread... What happened to you man


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 20, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I gonna stop you right here. Everything you just said is wrong by your own account, without mentioning the logic of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, I'll modify what I said a little, but my point still stands.  The only difference between Pain Arc Kakashi and WA kakashi is the extra time that allowed for him to improve stamina (but even so the boost is kinda exaggerated, but whatever I'll accept it).

The stamina increase means he can last longer and use kamui more liberally etc, but he has not grown so much as to close the gap in experience between himself and Jiraiya.

Kakashi was not at all about to blindside Deva lol. Look at how far he was from Deva, and then consider the 5 second cool down which he had not gained knowledge on. If he tried to surprise Deva from underground, we already know what happens. Shinra Tensei to the face.

Kakashi was very far behind Jiraiya. He could not win against a lesser amount of paths despite home court/allies and more initial knowledge.


Kakashi improved one of his stats which Jman arguably still outclasses him in, so how exactly has that closed the gap between them?


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## Shazam (Jun 20, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> That's because you conveniently forgot to put Tsunade in there.
> 
> "She dodges and regenerates from everything the opponent dishes out while the opponent just stands there watching, then _eventually_ turns him into red mist"
> Kappa
> ...



2v2 is fair.. no?


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2019)

What happened in those past 10 days or so that made Kakashi/Gai being the worst? 
I requested a NBD ban so my brain & eyes can recover from reading Tobirama's fanboys "arguments"...

Did anything major (regarding Kakashi & Gai, I guess?) happen that made them even worst than Tobirama?


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## Ishmael (Jun 20, 2019)

Nothing happened... peeps started bitching thats all.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 20, 2019)

Hussain said:


> What happened in those past 10 days or so that made Kakashi/Gai being the worst?
> I requested a NBD ban so my brain & eyes can recover from reading Tobirama's fanboys "arguments"...
> 
> Did anything major (regarding Kakashi & Gai, I guess?) happen that made them even worst than Tobirama?


Read some of the past threads

Kakashi tracking BM Naruto

Kakashi soloing the gama trio

Guy pressuring Juudara

Hirudora busting V3 Susanoo

Kakashi fighting and beating Onoki, Pein, Itachi, Minato, and Tobirama

Sharingan less Kakashi can beat eos Sakura

Kakashi can beat Mei and Kisame 

People dont even talk about Jiraiya that much, and if they do its a match where they know he's outmatch and simply want to make a thread where he loses out of spite


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## Shazam (Jun 21, 2019)

Concerning Gai vs Hashirama



Architect said:


> If they don't start hundred of meters apart, Hashirama gets bodied


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## Santoryu (Jun 21, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Read some of the past threads
> 
> Kakashi tracking BM Naruto



It happened. Doesn't mean was using his  maximum speed, obviously.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Kakashi soloing the gama trio



Consider, a man who impressed Madara and competed with dojutsu-ampted Jinjuriki. This is believable.




The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Hirudora busting V3 Susanoo


Ambiguous to what happened. It certainly sent him flying and a had an effect.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Kakashi fighting and beating Onoki, Pein, Itachi, Minato, and Tobirama


He has an excellent chance of beating Onoki and Itachi. I've seen you argue the same in the past. So supress the hypocrisy

And the others wouldn't have an easy time against him..



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Sharingan less Kakashi can beat eos Sakura



Who can't beat Sakura in the BD?

K





The Death & The Strawberry said:


> akashi can beat Mei and Kisame
> 
> People dont even talk about Jiraiya that much, and if they do its a match where they know he's outmatch and simply want to make a thread where he loses out of spite



Really?


A member of the Jiraiya band said that Jiraiya might be able to beat DMS Kakashi.
Several Sannin members stated that Jiraiya can beat 2-3 MS Kakashi's at the same time.

Save your lewdness for the bathhouse.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 21, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> It happened. Doesn't mean was using his  maximum speed, obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree, as for the lewdness well.. i like to share that


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 21, 2019)

Hussain said:


> What happened in those past 10 days or so that made Kakashi/Gai being the worst?
> I requested a NBD ban so my brain & eyes can recover from reading Tobirama's fanboys "arguments"...
> 
> Did anything major (regarding Kakashi & Gai, I guess?) happen that made them even worst than Tobirama?



I will tell you what happened.

Gai and Kakashi have always been wanked. But for years it was on the down down low. Every now and again you could notice some bat shit thing said about Kakashi winning this, or Gai doing that, and because the Masters are fan favs, you ignore it. Like when little kids say something completely wild. It's cute, but irrelevant.

So after years of no pushback to these ideas that the Masters are 2 or 3 tiers higher than they actually are, the wank started becoming more overt recently that wild arguments like Kakashi decapitating 3 boss toads and calls it a day and essays about how powerful the V2 Edo jins are in order to prove the Masters are some Kage++ is getting normalized. (to be fair the Gai wank isn't nearly as bad, he's mostly guilty by association)

So here we are.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I will tell you what happened.
> 
> Gai and Kakashi have always been wanked. But for years it was on the down down low. Every now and again you could notice some bat shit thing said about Kakashi winning this, or Gai doing that, and because the Masters are fan favs, you ignore it. Like when little kids say something completely wild. It's cute, but irrelevant.
> 
> ...


I am aware of them being overrated, but before I requested the NBD ban.
It was all about Tobirama and how he speedblitzes everyone and their mothers....etc

how did it get shafted from there to Kakashi & Gai in 2 weeks. 

And frankly, I don't think the examples @The Death & The Strawberry gave comes anywhere close to the hot garbage that Turrin was posting all this time with his supporters lol


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 21, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I will tell you what happened.
> 
> Gai and Kakashi have always been wanked. But for years it was on the down down low. Every now and again you could notice some bat shit thing said about Kakashi winning this, or Gai doing that, and because the Masters are fan favs, you ignore it. Like when little kids say something completely wild. It's cute, but irrelevant.
> 
> ...


Gai is among the strongest characters in the series. It’s not wank. It’s just a fact. The dude oneshotted Kisame in the ocean without the 8th Gate. Kakashi’s more difficult, but he still has some dangerous abilities, he’s versatile and one of the smartest characters in the series.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 21, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Gai is among the strongest characters in the series. It’s not wank. It’s just a fact. The dude oneshotted Kisame in the ocean without the 8th Gate. Kakashi’s more difficult, but he still has some dangerous abilities, he’s versatile and one of the smartest characters in the series.



There really is an issue on this board with people not reading what they quote. It's basically an epidemic.

*"(to be fair the Gai wank isn't nearly as bad)"*


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 21, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> There really is an issue on this board with people not reading what they quote. It's basically an epidemic.
> 
> *"(to be fair the Gai wank isn't nearly as bad)"*


No. I read that part. Still, it’s worth mentioning. Even for the people who think that the 7th Gate is overrated (and it’s not), they tend to restrict the 8th Gate, because it puts him right back at the top. There are only a handful of characters above Gai like Naruto and Sasuke. He really is one of the best.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 21, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> No. I read that part. Still, it’s worth mentioning.



Sure, but not to me. I already conceded that Gai isn't really an issue.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 21, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Sure, but not to me. I already conceded that Gai isn't really an issue.


Fair enough.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 21, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Concerning Gai vs Hashirama





Shazam said:


> I literally said the explanation point and reaction alluded to him being surprised


Actually you never stated the word "reaction" once in that thread.

When I asked for the panel of the explanation point, you didn't know which page it was on, but stated that it was "obviously" the very beginning explanation point in that exchange (top-left panel).

---



Assuming you're right, why does Madara then state "He insults me, not bringing out the *red* vapor." Wouldn't this suggest he didn't underestimate him at that point? This would contradict your statement that he underestimated him, if true.

I accept that the the initial exclamation point shows that he was somewhat surprised, but I'm failing to see by your words where JJ Mads underestimated 7G Gai? Can you try again?


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## Symmetry (Jun 21, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Jman is superior to PA Kakashi and nothing more.



And WA too, although admittedly Kakashi ain’t too far behind at all. He’s basically high kage, just a tad bit under it so the highest point possible for mid kage. Jman is at a low point of high kage. A fight between them would be legendary.


(Any of the three sanin beats Kakashi though)


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## Kisaitaparadise (Jun 21, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Is he really tho?
> 
> Boruto to the rescue...?


Wait he's alive???


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 22, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I'll entertain your notion. Show me 5 examples the masters are being overrated.
> 
> 
> Don't be afraid to call me out. It's true imo - I don't see how Sage Jiraiya can react to RCM2 A4 at a fair distance when Sasuke Uchiha with MS got rag-dolled and KCM Naruto was only slightly faster as far as I could tell. What's Sage Jiraiya gonna do?


Well for one... Sage jiraya can sense better and react quicker

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> And WA too, although admittedly Kakashi ain’t too far behind at all. He’s basically high kage, just a tad bit under it so the highest point possible for mid kage. Jman is at a low point of high kage. A fight between them would be legendary.
> 
> 
> (Any of the three sanin beats Kakashi though)


I highly doubt tsunade can defeat kakashi


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 22, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Well for one... Sage jiraya can sense better and react quicker


Sage Jiraiya couldn't sense the Path who appeared behind him. 


*Spoiler*: _Chapter Reference - 379.9, 379.10_ 










While Sage Jiraiya is fast, don't get me wrong  , his reaction speed is not as fast as SM Naruto's and we know the Fourth Raikage, A, is around the level of KCM Naruto in speed and he topped even MS Sasuke's Amaterasu in speed in his Raiton Chakra Mode (Version 2) (V2/RCM2) form. 

By the way, how long have you known about Narutoforums for?
Also, may I ask about your hobbies?


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> I highly doubt tsunade can defeat kakashi



Personally I think she can but it would be a good fight


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 22, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Sage Jiraiya couldn't sense the Path who appeared behind him.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Chapter Reference - 379.9, 379.10_
> ...





Mad Scientist said:


> Sage Jiraiya couldn't sense the Path who appeared behind him.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Chapter Reference - 379.9, 379.10_
> ...


No so long
I like to read, argue and play games.... Also watch anime


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Personally I think she can but it would be a good fight[/QUOTE
> Kakashi with knowledge is NOT going down to tsunade... Particularly war Arc kakashi


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## Azula (Jun 22, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Guy needs 8g for Madara, needs 7 for Juubito. Simple logic, he pressured Madara, he would roast juubito


He would get his hand or head hacked off.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 22, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> No so long
> I like to read, argue and play games.... Also watch anime


Ooh nice, what's your favourite anime or top 5, would you say  ?


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## Symmetry (Jun 22, 2019)

Opinions can change? Unless you want everyone to stubbornly believe what they believe forever, which would not be good


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 22, 2019)

Azula said:


> He would get his hand or head hacked off.


WOW, I SURE DID NOT KNOW THAT  Thanks captain obvious.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 22, 2019)

Denying the clear portrayal via statments and bending the all hierarchy and parameters of the series. Just for wanking someone to eternity. What a dedicated people .... Impressive in a lewd way ı guess.


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 22, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Sage Jiraiya couldn't sense the Path who appeared behind him.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Chapter Reference - 379.9, 379.10_
> ...


Tell me yours too


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 22, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Ooh nice, what's your favourite anime or top 5, would you say  ?


Favorite anime is naruto... My top 5 characters are kakashi, minato itachi hinata naruto.... I'll like to know yours too


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 22, 2019)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Tell me yours too


I like anime and paper mario. Here's a cool video:


I also like music:


Also, I like chocolate covered peanut butter _cooookieess!!

_
My favourite characters in Naruto are Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, Jiraiya, Itachi, Shikamaru, Killer Bee and Gaara (I wouldn't mind adding Chiyo, Hinata, Tsunade, Nagato, Konan, Minato, Hiruzen, Rock Lee, adult Sasuke, post-Juubi Obito either, and Gamabunta, Hachibi, Pakun, and Kurama).


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 22, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I like anime and paper mario. Here's a cool video:
> 
> 
> I also like music:
> ...


Wow... Cool... Lol hachibi, gamabunta


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2019)

added some new selection and now you can choose 2 options


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## Hina uzumaki (Jun 24, 2019)

I don't know why but I feel sakura should be among overhyped characters.... 
I've seem some who are like
Sakura punches the ground.... GG


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