# BSM Naruto VS EMS Madara!!



## Hi no Ishi (Jan 1, 2018)

Happy New Year's Guys and Gals!
Let's start this off with a bang!

The light vs the darkness!

Post Jubito Naruto

Vs

EMS Madara


Location VotE headstones 
Killing Intent 
In character 
Manga Knowledge 


The Kyubii is in Naruto, and not summonable.
There is not time limit for BSM as none was shown or stated. 

Fight!!

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## hbcaptain (Jan 1, 2018)

PS assures a low diff win in Madara's favor.

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## Android (Jan 1, 2018)

If Madara has the Kyubi he wins, if not then he loses.
EMS Madara can't dish out more output than the Jubi's TBB beam that plowed through 9 TBBs w/o losing momentum, then got tanked by BM Naruto.
Supercharged Senjutsu TBB then wipes Madara off.

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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> There is not time limit for BSM as none was shown or stated.


No time limit was shown or stated... which was ironically the thing that was never shown or stated to have magically vanished



But somehow stacking another time limited powerup makes the time restriction of BM disappear and such a thing is never implied

Sure whatever 

Regardless of time limit or not, Naruto isnt doing much of anything here

His greatest asset is usually his speed, which does him no favors here. , . Madara would be capable of the same thing, as again, he is stated to be sasukes superior, and they both use the same technique in EMS to track high speeds.

Madaras feats also lend credibly to that claim,,  which would both be comparable to BSM even if inferior.

So moving on from speed, offence vs defense is next...

Naruto isnt doing anything to madaras susanoo period

, his V3 was implied to be too much for SM FRS to bust  but regardless of that... 

And when it comes to BM vs PS...Naruto cant hurt madara...Like period...Cant be done



*Thats from a kurama twice as strong as narutos btw*

So in order for naruto to damage madara in a mech war here, you would need to argue his firepower doesnt just marginally exceed a biju twice as strong as his, but literally DWARF it by a vast degree...Which is hilarious

At best i can see the claim being made that a perfect jin of 50% kurama is comparable to 100% in power...But tbh even that is a ridiculous stretch to me

Regardless of your gaps there, naruto isnt dwarfing the firepower of a biju twice as strong as his 

Now as for madara hurting naruto...

Normally, id just argue he outlasts BMs stated timelimit but the stips dont allow for that here 

Regardless theres no reason that Madara cant hurt naruto

Narutos BM took the juubilaser and survived, sure yes i agree

But ...


The juubi laser<<<<<a Juubidama so lets not get too carrier away here

*The point im making here is its accurate to state that 100% Kuramas TBB < The minimum damage output required to hurt PS as it was tanked by PS with no issue

But its silly to act like the juubilaser is the minimum amount of force to hurt narutos BM as despite his defensive countermeasures it kicked his ass when it hit him 
*
Its hard to say where narutos minimum is, but we know madaras minimum is above narutos max output

And in order for naruto to be able to have durability consistently of that magnitude he demonstrated against the juubilaser, you would need to argue he is blocking every single one of madaras hits with all of his tails...

Therefore its more likely madara can hurt him than vice versa

I give it to madara high diff

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## Trojan (Jan 1, 2018)

Naruto wins.

PS can't scratch Kurama as we have seen (Naruto Vs Sasuke).
Of course, before some idiots come and say the usual "That's RM Naruto!! How DARE YOU compare him to regular BM!!!"
Sasuke was also using "RM SUSANOO!!!". So, take both "RM" part out, and we have the same result.

Now, the chakra BM Naruto gave the SA is more or less equal to that of Hashirama. With SM addition here, Naruto has more chakra than Hashirama, and therefore, more than Asspulldara as well. Which means, since Kurama and PS are more or less equal, the deciding factor will be the amount of chakra each person has. Which Naruto has more, so he will be the winner at the end of the day.

Of course, that's assuming PIS, CIS and plot shield are off.
Edit: and Asspulls of course.

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## Bonly (Jan 1, 2018)

Kurama states a time limit twice but no time limited was stated? Yeah ok. Anyway Madara would win more times then not, Naruto can’t get past PS while Madara can’t get past Kurama’s avy so it’ll be a case of who can outlast who’s mecha but with Izanagi Madara can blindside Naruto to win if he doesn’t outlast.

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## The Great One (Jan 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No time limit was shown or stated... which was ironically the thing that was never shown or stated to have magically vanished
> 
> 
> 
> ...


its funny how Uchiha fans brings up Madara's rib cage blocking COR but not that it was CoR made by a clone of clone before Naruto got full excess.

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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2018)

Batzzaro29 said:


> its funny how Uchiha fans brings up Madara's rib cage blocking COR but not that it was CoR made by a clone of clone before Naruto got full excess.


Its funny how people dont seem to understand how a jutsu like KB works or Rasengan in general

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2018)

Surely the fact PS can use jutsu means something?


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## Arles Celes (Jan 1, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Edit: and Asspulls of course.



How can Asspulldara not rely on asspulls?

He stomps.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2018)

Couldn't Madara pretend to die with Izanagi and then take Naruto out when he thinks it is over?



Hi no Ishi said:


> Manga Knowledge



Naruto knows nothing.

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## Arles Celes (Jan 1, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Couldn't Madara pretend to die with Izanagi and then



I wonder if he could summon a much bigger meteor via PS when he could drop two pretty big ones with just V2 Susanoo.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2018)

Arles Celes said:


> I wonder if he could summon a much bigger meteor via PS when he could drop two pretty big ones with just V2 Susanoo.


Tengai Shinsei iirc is a rinnegan ability not an EMS one

Could be wrong tho

Regardless tho its an ineffective technique for him to use while alive, he would be directly in the blast radius of his own technique as shown on panel when he stated he was abusing ETs regen to use his meteors


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## Android (Jan 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Narutos BM took the juubilaser and survived, sure yes i agree
> 
> But ...
> 
> ...


All what I read here is some worthless "analysis" with zero substance on how Madara actually breaches the BSM cloak.

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## sabre320 (Jan 1, 2018)

Naruto wins ...madara has no attack that can bypass the avatars durability, while narutos maximum charged senpo bijudama surpasses the combined bijudama from naruto and bee and is enough to destroy ps. 

Second if this becomes a battle of reserves naruto again wins handily as he has more chakra then hashirama, even in bm and easily more then madaras. 

Third naruto can summon ma and pa and they can camp within the bsm avatar and prep frogsong, and naruto can give them chakra cloaks to enhance them. Madara cannot bypass the avatar and thus cannot stop frogsongs charge time which end the match.

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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> All what I read here is some worthless "analysis" with zero substance on how Madara actually breaches the BSM cloak


Then why would i waste my time talking to you of all people about it

Considering you flip flop on this issue regularly


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## Android (Jan 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Then why would i waste my time talking to you of all people about it


Because you know that your argument and logic where rubbish 
I mean look at these quotes 


WorldsStrongest said:


> which does him no favors here. , . Madara


Scan of EMS Sasuke tracking Obito without Kurama cloak from both Minato and Naruto ? 
Cuz I seem to remember him getting shat on by blind Madara who is <<<< Obito in speed and reactions 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Madaras feats also lend credibly to that claim,,


Wow, so Madara reacted to a BM clone, impressive. Didn't know that a BM clone was as fast as Obito.
And before you start making anything up, it was already stated by Tobirama (you know, the man who created the KB technique) that clones are slower than the original.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto isnt doing anything to madaras susanoo period





WorldsStrongest said:


> And when it comes to BM vs PS...Naruto cant hurt madara...Like period...Cant be


   


WorldsStrongest said:


> So in order for naruto to damage madara in a mech war here, you would need to argue his firepower doesnt just marginally exceed a biju twice as strong as his, but literally DWARF it by a vast degree...Which is hilarious



The only hilarious is this incredibly laughable logic 

Let me give you another lesson about the manga, so you and the rest of the people who don't understand how Naruto's time limits in BM/BSM works.
A) Kurama implies that the time limits is due to the the bond between the Biju and its Jin not being perfected yet.
B) Kurama implying that the time limit "can't be lengthened any further" is literally something you literally asspulled, as we've seen that:
1- Naruto used BSM in the movie for more than an hour (the time limit A gave to the Gokage before using his chakra cannon).
2- we've seen B use BM for a long time from around chapter 560 to chapter 600. Proving that the time limit can extend way way waaaaaay beyond 8 minutes.
C) the Jubi beam plowed through 9 TBBs with zero resistance and lost no momentum AS SHOWN in the manga.
D) Naruto took the beam DIRECTLY and lost the tips of six of his tails. B never tanked the beam as he got teleported by Kakashi.
E) that was just BM, and BSM should be more durable due to the SM amp.

Your logic regarding Madara's PS is even worse.
Didn't know that tanking a standard size TBB from Kurama means that he can tank supercharged TBB from BSM Naruto.
Naruto in BM can casually create TBB bigger than Biju themselves, if you think Madara's PS is tanking a Biju dwarfing SM enhanced flash TBB then you should stop posting right now.
BM Naruto (weaker than BSM) can tank attacks from entity that shits on Madara in terms in terms of firepower, and has the firepower to destroy Madara's PS.

Madara isn't winning this and I DARE you to prove otherwise.


*Spoiler*: __ 









WorldsStrongest said:


> Its funny how people dont seem to understand how a jutsu like KB works or Rasengan in general


Just like how it's funny how Sasuke's fanbase claim he can use PS with his EMS

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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> Because you know that your argument and logic where rubbish


No because you literally say one thing and then turnaround and say the exact opposite like a month later 

So why waste my time proving this to you when you will magically prove it to yourself by February


Cosmos said:


> Just like how it's funny how Sasuke's fanbase claim he can use PS with his EMS


Hes shown doing so without Jugo or Narutos aid 

But Thats off topic and a sad and desperate attempt at bait if ive ever seen one


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## Android (Jan 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No because you literally say one thing and then turnaround and say the exact opposite like a month later
> 
> So why waste my time proving this to you when you will magically prove it to yourself by February


Weak ass bait, but I accept your concession 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Hes shown doing so without Jugo or Narutos aid
> 
> But Thats off topic and a sad and desperate attempt at bait if ive


Nah, it's so that you know that if you want to talk feats, then you should apply this to all characters without giving your fav a pass 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Hes shown doing so without Jugo or Narutos aid


PS armour, with Naruto's SM chakra, try again


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Tengai Shinsei iirc is a rinnegan ability not an EMS one
> 
> Could be wrong tho
> 
> Regardless tho its an ineffective technique for him to use while alive, he would be directly in the blast radius of his own technique as shown on panel when he stated he was abusing ETs regen to use his meteors





Arles Celes said:


> I wonder if he could summon a much bigger meteor via PS when he could drop two pretty big ones with just V2 Susanoo.



Putting together all the info we have in the manga, it is likely that Tengai Shinsei is a Rinnegan jutsu. Since we learnt Susanoo could use jutsu, it is probable that Susanoo just cast a jutsu to bring in a meteorite. Similar to how it can use Chidori. You can take it to mean that Susanoo cast the jutsu on a scale Madara himself wouldn't be able to use.

Implying PS' Tengai Shinsei would be insane.


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 1, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> All what I read here is some worthless "analysis" with zero substance on how Madara actually breaches the BSM cloak.


Even the 100% Kyuubi has not shown any destructive power, even with the TBB, to do nearly as much damage as the PS. The shockwaves of air coming from Madara casually swinging it around did nearly as much damage as a 100% Kyuubi's TBB. It split a mountain range. And Naruto has half that power. Not to mention Madara can do the same thing Sasuke did and suppress the Kyuubi


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## Kyu (Jan 1, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Not to mention Madara can do the same thing Sasuke did and suppress the Kyuubi



Because he pulled it off on Sai arc Naruto who was actively resisting Kurama's chakra?

If an Uchiha with a 3 tomoe sharingan(or higher) had the power to suppress bijū chakra that is under the complete control of a jinchūriki(KCM, BM), then:


Sasuke would've done it against Bee instead of getting killed 3 times.
Obito would've done it against Naruto or Bee
Madara would've done it against Naruto or Bee instead of relying on Mokuton suppression
Sasuke would've done it against Naruto


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 1, 2018)

Kyu said:


> Because he pulled it off on Sai arc Naruto who was actively resisting Kurama's chakra?
> 
> If an Uchiha with a 3 tomoe sharingan(or higher) had the power to suppress bijū chakra that is under the complete control of a jinchūriki(KCM, BM), then:
> 
> ...


Probably. That is one technique i'm honestly not too knowledgeable on


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## ARGUS (Jan 2, 2018)

MADara mid diffs W/o the kyuubi 
Shits on his face if he has the kyuubi

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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 2, 2018)

Okay here's why I think Naruto will win.


Offensive: A much weaker FKS Sage Naruto can knock Kurama over and even hurt the hell out of him with his jutsu, and while Madara's PS is said to rival the tailed beasts in power, there is no reason to believe Madara is much tougher than Kurama physically so the added experience, and powerful chakra of Naruto in BSM should do terrible damage to him.
Also having power that rivals the tailed beasts is great unless your dealing with someone who on their first transformation was able to handle beating down and choking out several tailed beasts at once and able to quickly match and exceed their combined output.
Finally, his normal sage mode clones are able to throw and slam Kurama so them throwing PS, who is of comparable size is not unlikely especially with Naruto's penchant for clone feints, and history of feinting everyone of note in the manga.

Defensively: Madara has nothing comparable to a Jubii Dama or even close and he would need a ton more firepower than that to pierce that same form in Sage Mode. 
Pieces of the avatar can be dispersed and reformed as needed if Madara some how manages to pull out that level of power (he cant) and even if by some miracle he managed to Kamehameha his way through the avatar Naruto can easily reform the avatar as he did against Obito.

Supplementary: Madara is outclassed in speed by this Naruto who is comparable to the 4th Hokage, a man faster than the man Madara stated was faster than him.
This Naruto can not only react to JJ strikes, and damage TSB in the process, but catch Jubito while he is in motion an flying around . He can even sneak up on and smash a much stronger Madara's legged Susano'o to the ground with a single tail with no Rasengan in it.

Madara had no feats of being able to react to that speed level, and one can not simply had him Sasuke's and roll with it as they are very different characters, and having similar eyes is not always proof.
For example, even with improved versions of Itachi's eyes Sasuke showed worse reactions than Itachi did. 
It also took even the fastest people time to adjust to that speed so even if he can eventually keep up, he won't be used to fighting anything with the speed and style of Naruto.

Chakra wise while some will say that Naruto only has 50% of Kurama to fight with here, but i will show you why that is flawed reasoning.

Naruto, and Uzumaki who had 4x Kakashi's chakra in Base in the wind arc has Kurama's chakra fully linked to his and that massive chakra is being augmented by a huge amount of Senjutsu. Sage mode needs natural energy to be a third of his total combined chakra to even work, so via 50 + 1/3= 66.7 he has 2/3 Full Kurama's chakra, plus his own large chakra pool to rely upon leaving him not very far from full Kurama's natural capacity anyway.

Not that it makes a difference unless full Kurama was using 100% of his chakra for each action, but I digress.

In sum, Naruto is fully capable of hurting tailed beast quality structures and beings, while Madara has shown nothing that can hurt him and is likely to be tricked by Naruto repeatedly like everyone else he has ever fought.

Naruto Mid difficulty with his maximum effort.

Thanks for your time

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## Gohara (Jan 3, 2018)

Naruto wins in my opinion because of superior speed, versatility, and Chakra.

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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 3, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Defensively: Madara has nothing comparable to a Jubii Dama or even close and he would need a ton more firepower than that to pierce that same form in Sage Mode.



(start at 2:31)
TBB from 100% Kyuubi

(Start at 13:10)
Susano'o casual sword swing


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 3, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> (start at 2:31)
> TBB from 100% Kyuubi
> 
> (Start at 13:10)
> Susano'o casual sword swing


A) Now if that had completely destroyed a mountain range down to dust and could travel almost unlimited range, and it was shown negging 9 tailed beast balls and with out losing steam it would finally be on the level of something BM Naruto already tanked. This is the sage mode version of that guy.

B) why do people say his "casual" sword swims as if he showed another type of PS slash?


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 3, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> A) Now if that had completely destroyed a mountain range down to dust and could travel almost unlimited range, and it was shown negging 9 tailed beast balls and with out losing steam it would finally be on the level of something BM Naruto already tanked. This is the sage mode version of that guy.
> 
> B) why do people say his "casual" sword swims as if he showed another type of PS slash?


1. It wouldn't be as powerful if the sword did that, yes, but the sword didn't even hit the mountains. that was the AIR PRESSURE from the swing. It's like if you swung your hand face down(horizontally flat) in the air, the wind that you just created is the air pressure that we're talking about
2. He didn't have SM at the time. he gained it post-juubito takedown


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 3, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. It wouldn't be as powerful if the sword did that, yes, but the sword didn't even hit the mountains. that was the AIR PRESSURE from the swing. It's like if you swung your hand face down(horizontally flat) in the air, the wind that you just created is the air pressure that we're talking about


Yep I'm clear on air pressure my friend lol.
But Madara can cut an orange while The Jubii can vaporize the orange, cutting board and counter leaving a hole in the the wall. 
The second one is what Naruto took and walked off comparitively.

As for the comparative strength of the blade I would consider the slashes more dangerous still as Hashirama was able to blade grasp the actual blade but couldn't do nearly as well against Majestic Attire Susano'o wind slashes.

Regardless neither is even close to a Jubii Dama.



Nuttynutdude said:


> 2. He didn't have SM at the time. he gained it post-juubito takedown



That's what I'm saying, yes. Madara does not even have the feats to damage a weaker version than the one in this thread.


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 4, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Yep I'm clear on air pressure my friend lol.
> But Madara can cut an orange while The Jubii can vaporize the orange, cutting board and counter leaving a hole in the the wall.
> The second one is what Naruto took and walked off comparitively.
> 
> ...


1. no, that's not how it works. Then we could say that Asuma's wind style chakra blades are weaker than Chunin exams Sasuke's Katon because Sasuke can burn the tree down whereas Asuma can only cut it.
2. Cutting and slicing is far far harder to defend against brute force as its cutting nature tends to have a semi-durability-negating nature. If i punched you with 10 newtons of force, it would hurt you mildy. If i hit you with a knife with 5 newtons of force, it would cut you
3. Saying that because you can grab Madara's sword and you can't to the air pressure therefore the air pressure is greater is the dumbest thing ive heard.
Oh, you can catch the hammer. You can't catch the light from this laser pointer. laser pointer>>>Hammer


Hi no Ishi said:


> Madara does not even have the feats to damage a weaker version than the one in this thread.


Weaker version..? So what you're saying is that Madara weaker than both Obito and Nagato


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 4, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. no, that's not how it works. Then we could say that Asuma's wind style chakra blades are weaker than Chunin exams Sasuke's Katon because Sasuke can burn the tree down whereas Asuma can only cut it.
> 2. Cutting and slicing is far far harder to defend against brute force as its cutting nature tends to have a semi-durability-negating nature. If i punched you with 10 newtons of force, it would hurt you mildy. If i hit you with a knife with 5 newtons of force, it would cut you
> 3. Saying that because you can grab Madara's sword and you can't to the air pressure therefore the air pressure is greater is the dumbest thing ive heard.
> Oh, you can catch the hammer. You can't catch the light from this laser pointer. laser pointer>>>Hammer


Please read before replying. I said it's more dangerous not stronger.

What I said was much stronger was the Jubii laser. Which it clearly is.

Weather the blade or the pressure is greater neither is the match of even a Jubii Dama, which still isn't enough to get through Naruto's defenses.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Weaker version..? So what you're saying is that Madara weaker than both Obito and



Who the heck mentioned either Obito or Nagato lol?

The Naruto who tanked a Jubi laser is much weaker than BSM Naruto, the one in this thread.


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 4, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Please read before replying. I said it's more dangerous not stronger.
> 
> What I said was much stronger was the Jubii laser. Which it clearly is.
> 
> ...


Juubi laser is just a Juubidama compressed in the mouth and shot out as a laser. The tailed beast ball in general is just supercompressed chakra. It isn't stronger than the ball, it is the same move in a different forme. It's like saying if you have a teardrop shaped fireball instead of a spherical one, its stronger even if its the same jutsu

And more dangerous? Let's recap shall we? The 100% Kyuubi's TBB Destroyed about a mountain and a half. The air pressure, not even the physical blade, of Madara's PS was enough to split a mountain range and throw the top half into the air. That makes Madara's PS far stronger than the 100% Kyuubi, which is quite literally 2x as strong as the Kyuubi we're debating. Saying that because the TBB is omnidirectional therefore it's stronger is a logical fallacy, seeing as we could also, by that logic, say that genin sasuke's fireball jutsu is weaker than War arc Kakashi's Raikiri cable that cut through tailed beasts because Sasuke's fireball could knock down a tree while Kakashi's Raikiri cable could only cut through it

And just one more time, cutting and piercing techniques are far more dangerous. Remember the metaphor? if i hit you with 10 newtons of force, you would hit me back, with a mild pain. If i stabbed you with a knife using 5 newtons of force, you would get cut. Now, you could say that armour negates that. Well, if i took a hammer to a metal plate, it would dent it. if i took a spear to the same kind of metal, it would pierce it. This is why we use bullets and not cannonballs

And i did read, which is why i'm so confused at your logic. Why bring up Hashirama? He's irrelevant here because its unanimous he can beat BSM Naruto too. 

I brought up Obito and Nagato because it was shown both could beat Naruto with relative ease.


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## Mar55 (Jan 4, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> I brought up Obito and Nagato because it was shown both could beat Naruto with relative ease.


This point holds no weight when neither can beat BSM. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to argue Nagato can even compete with BM. Not to mention Obito can beat Madara himself, as in he has the capability to. Whether he does or not, that's up for debate.


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 4, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> This point holds no weight when neither can beat BSM. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to argue Nagato can even compete with BM. Not to mention Obito can beat Madara himself, as in he has the capability to. Whether he does or not, that's up for debate.


1. BM is what i call KCM2, no? the Kurama forme with the cloak. I do not have words to describe what Nagato did to Naruto and Bee. even doubling Naruto's power there wouldn't do much
2. Obito cannot beat Madara. It was fairly clear from the start. You could say, well, if Madara stand still and doesn't really try, but then again you could then also say Konohamaru could beat Kakashi because Kakashi could still die to a kunai to the throat, and if he doesn't defend himself, Konohamaru can do it.


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## Mar55 (Jan 4, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. BM is what i call KCM2, no? the Kurama forme with the cloak. I do not have words to describe what Nagato did to Naruto and Bee. even doubling Naruto's power there wouldn't do much


That's ignoring his actual feats. Nagato cannot beat BM Naruto, at all.


Nuttynutdude said:


> 2. Obito cannot beat Madara. It was fairly clear from the start. You could say, well, if Madara stand still and doesn't really try, but then again you could then also say Konohamaru could beat Kakashi because Kakashi could still die to a kunai to the throat, and if he doesn't defend himself, Konohamaru can do it.


No, I meant in an actual fight. Regardless, it doesn't matter here.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 4, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Juubi laser is just a Juubidama compressed in the mouth and shot out as a laser. The tailed beast ball in general is just supercompressed chakra. It isn't stronger than the ball, it is the same move in a different forme. It's like saying if you have a teardrop shaped fireball instead of a spherical one, its stronger even if its the same jutsu


I am aware a Jubii Dama and Jubii laser are the same thing. What I have been saying the whole bloody time is that it's way stronger than a frickin PS slash.



Nuttynutdude said:


> And more dangerous? Let's recap shall we? The 100% Kyuubi's TBB Destroyed about a mountain and a half. The air pressure, not even the physical blade, of Madara's PS was enough to split a mountain range and throw the top half into the air. That makes Madara's PS far stronger than the 100% Kyuubi, which is quite literally 2x as strong as the Kyuubi we're debating. Saying that because the TBB is omnidirectional therefore it's stronger is a logical fallacy, seeing as we could also, by that logic, say that genin sasuke's fireball jutsu is weaker than War arc Kakashi's Raikiri cable that cut through tailed beasts because Sasuke's fireball could knock down a tree while Kakashi's Raikiri cable could only cut through it


A)The Jubii is way stronger than 100% Kurama or PS and he still couldn't get through Naruto's defenses.

B) You are trying to say someone who can cut a mountain is stronger than someone who can erase one and that's silly. It takes way more energy to reduce something to ashes than to cut it in any world.

This is more of a case of you saying Raikiri can also cut a tree so it's equal to the super Jinton Cube destroying the tree and area around it. 
It's why use Bombs more than swords now lol.

Madara's PS blade has no feats or portrayal or being close to as strong as an attack from the Jubii. And even that wouldn't kill Naruto.



Nuttynutdude said:


> And just one more time, cutting and piercing techniques are far more dangerous. Remember the metaphor? if i hit you with 10 newtons of force, you would hit me back, with a mild pain. If i stabbed you with a knife using 5 newtons of force, you would get cut. Now, you could say that armour negates that. Well, if i took a hammer to a metal plate, it would dent it. if i took a spear to the same kind of metal, it would pierce it. This is why we use bullets and not cannonballs


You keep trying to make this about PS blade vs it's air pressure when neither has close to the feats needed to hurt even BM Naruto and thus are irrelevant.


Nuttynutdude said:


> And i did read, which is why i'm so confused at your logic


If you read you would know why I brought up Hashirama catching it.
As An example of it not having much more force if any at all by feats, and why the pressure could be considered more dangerous 



Nuttynutdude said:


> I brought up Obito and Nagato because it was shown both could beat Naruto with relative ease.



Not only has neither been shown beating  BM Naruto, Naruto was also the one shown overpowering 5 tailed beast that took Akatsuki years to get, on his first transformation, so they are also irrelevant

Reactions: Like 2


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## uchihakil (Jan 5, 2018)

I see madara winning more times than not because;

> They have comparable stats and in cases like this the one with more experience tend to have a better advantage.

> Has the element of surprise (izanagi) incase shit goes sideways he can come back and oneshot naruto after naruto thinks he won.

> EMS madara >>> EMS sasuke with kurama amp who was able to track juubito, madara can surely track someone slower than juubito.

> Madara's PS SHOCKWAVE CUT MOUNTAINS in half, SHOCKFRIGGINWAVE, if that aint impressive i dont know what is, the shockwave of ones attack should be faaar inferior to one's original attack, madara will fuck naruto up if he lands a direct on him.

> Madara is not stupid enough to watch kurama super charge a TBB, he intercepts it with a PS blade/shockwave depending on the range.

Offtopic: i with we knew what madara's MS abilities were


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 5, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> > They have comparable stats and in cases like this the one with more experience tend to have a better advantage.


They sure don't, one has way better speed feats, strength feats and tricks. The other is Madara. 
Ask Kakuzu and everyone else Naruto fought about that experience winning thing though lol.


uchihakil said:


> > Has the element of surprise (izanagi) incase shit goes sideways he can come back and oneshot naruto after naruto thinks he won.


A good point but he is still not half as tricky as Naruto.


uchihakil said:


> > EMS madara >>> EMS sasuke with kurama amp who was able to track juubito, madara can surely track someone slower than juubito.


No you can't actually give someone some else reaction feats because their PS is bigger. 
As I said above, even having better versions of Itachi's eyes, Sasuke did not show better reactions. We don't get to just hand our faves feats.



uchihakil said:


> > Madara's PS SHOCKWAVE CUT MOUNTAINS in half, SHOCKFRIGGINWAVE, if that aint impressive i dont know what is, the shockwave of ones attack should be faaar inferior to one's original attack, madara will fuck naruto up if he lands a direct on him.


Holy crap MOUNTAIN TOPS? Well slap my momma!
 Now he has feats that equal what Naruto was doing when Training for the pain fight!!! That's pretty strong!


uchihakil said:


> > Madara is not stupid enough to watch kurama super charge a TBB, he intercepts it with a PS blade/shockwave depending on the range.


Yep but he can be bodyslamed by a clone first, and nuked as Naruto does.
 and a PS shockwave has no feats of stopping a tailed beast ball.


uchihakil said:


> Offtopic: i with we knew what madara's MS abilities were


 Me too, he is already such a bad ass he does not need it though.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Mar55 (Jan 5, 2018)

Even BM Naruto has feats that allow him to beat Madara, a high diff victory either way. BSM >> both of them.


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## Trojan (Jan 5, 2018)

> Naruto's attack damaged/destroyed Obito's GD shield
> It can't effect lolPS


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## Mar55 (Jan 5, 2018)

Hussain said:


> > Naruto's attack damaged/destroyed Obito's GD shield
> > It can't effect lolPS


Even ignoring that, Naruto can quite easily pressure him physically. Assuming he doesn't go for higher stage Susano'o off the jump, he's going down in the opening stages.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 5, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> They sure don't, one has way better speed feats, strength feats and tricks. The other is Madara.
> Ask Kakuzu and everyone else Naruto fought about that experience winning thing though lol.
> 
> A good point but he is still not half as tricky as Naruto.
> ...




> No doubt naruto fought stronger opponents than madara, which got yall thinking he's stronger which he really isn't, madara will wtfstomp EMS sasuke with kyuubi cloak, we all know this, its not even close, and sasuke is comparable to naruto, (atleast reaction and defence), but it is clear as a motherfucking day that madara will murk sasuke's ass.


> Madara's PS tanked the explosion 11 BD infused with PS (Full kurama) 

> And yes madara should scale to sasuke especially in the speed department, he has the same choku tomoe, but madara is superior in chakra quantity and quality and had it for a longer time, so logically he is (and we all know) better than sasuke, BSM naruto is not even as fast as juubito, yet someone with the same power as madara (but less experienced and had less chakra) could track juubito, saying madara can't track someone slower IS being a fanboy.


> PS shockwave has no feats of stopping a TBB?? are you for real? it cut two mountains in half bruh, (thats all the frigging feats he need) and you think it can not make one explode? 

> Madara's PS > BSM naruto's avatar = Cloaked CM EMS sasuke's Susano

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Mar55 (Jan 5, 2018)

That's some interesting "logic."


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 5, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> > No doubt naruto fought stronger opponents than madara, which got yall thinking he's stronger which he really isn't, madara will wtfstomp EMS sasuke with kyuubi cloak, we all know this, its not even close, and sasuke is comparable to naruto, (atleast reaction and defence), but it is clear as a motherfucking day that madara will murk sasuke's ass.


Lol no one said sasuke could beat Madara in a fight. What are you on about?


uchihakil said:


> Madara's PS tanked the explosion 11 BD infused with PS (Full kurama)


He sure didn't. He shot bombs at the mass of arms that plowed through them, and got his PS Punched off.


uchihakil said:


> And yes madara should scale to sasuke especially in the speed department, he has the same choku tomoe, but madara is superior in chakra quantity and quality and had it for a longer time, so logically he is (and we all know) better than sasuke, BSM naruto is not even as fast as juubito, yet someone with the same power as madara (but less experienced and had less chakra) could track juubito, saying madara can't track someone slower IS being a fanboy.


A) Naruto was clearly able to catch up to and strike Obito with his avatar.

B) not giving someone feats they haven't shown the opposite of being a fanboy, it's going by what I've seen in the manga. 

Having more or better chakra does not mean you have better eyesight, or experience tracking things of that speed.



uchihakil said:


> PS shockwave has no feats of stopping a TBB?? are you for real? it cut two mountains in half bruh, (thats all the frigging feats he need) and you think it can not make one explode?


Yes an air blast that can cut a mountain is definitely weaker than something that can obliterate one.

Not that that's nearly enough to injure Naruto.



uchihakil said:


> Madara's PS > BSM naruto's avatar = Cloaked CM EMS sasuke's


BSM Naruto >  EMS Madara > Cloaked CM EMS Sasuke.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 5, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I am aware a Jubii Dama and Jubii laser are the same thing. What I have been saying the whole bloody time is that it's way stronger than a frickin PS slash.


How? In what way?


Hi no Ishi said:


> A)The Jubii is way stronger than 100% Kurama or PS and he still couldn't get through Naruto's defenses.


So what you're saying is that BSM Naruto could hold his own against the Juubi? Because I don't understand why you would bring that up


Hi no Ishi said:


> B) You are trying to say someone who can cut a mountain is stronger than someone who can erase one and that's silly. It takes way more energy to reduce something to ashes than to cut it in any world.


No, I'm saying someone who can cleave a MOUNTAIN RANGE in half with the AIR PRESSURE is stronger than someone with their strongest attack blowing up one mountain.


Hi no Ishi said:


> You keep trying to make this about PS blade vs it's air pressure when neither has close to the feats needed to hurt even BM Naruto and thus are irrelevant.


By that logic it has no feats against Kakashi, therefore it cant hurt Kakashi


Hi no Ishi said:


> Madara's PS blade has no feats or portrayal or being close to as strong as an attack from the Jubii. And even that wouldn't kill Naruto.


No sht it doesn't. That's not what we're arguing. If you want to go that way, a Katon: Fireball jutsu is stronger than a rasengan because Sasuke's fireball is stronger than Konohamaru's rasengan. So you're saying Naruto is Juubi level because he can survive an attack from the Juubi? When was he it? you mean the little hand that was flailing around? or do you mean the one juubidama directed at them, and they had to formulate a plan to deflect it because everyone knew EVERYONE WAS SCREWED. Minato was the only reason they even lived as long as they did


Hi no Ishi said:


> Not only has neither been shown beating BM Naruto, Naruto was also the one shown overpowering 5 tailed beast that took Akatsuki years to get, on his first transformation, so they are also irrelevant


You seem to not know the difference between Obito and the jinchuriki's.

Let me enlighten you:
Obito was almost landing hits on Naruto if he wasn't also fighting Killer Bee, Gated Guy, and Kakashi

Nobody, INCLUDING Naruto, was landing anything at all until Kakashi used Kamui to counter Obito's Kamui

What part of this makes you think that Naruto alone is stronger than Obito? Obito was
1. not straining himsef
2. Not using the rinnegan
3. talking to Naruto the entire time
4. was being countered by his own mangekyou by a separate character with genius level intellect
5. going 1v4
6. completely unfazed by anything the protagonists threw at him


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## The Great One (Jan 6, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> How? In what way?
> 
> So what you're saying is that BSM Naruto could hold his own against the Juubi? Because I don't understand why you would bring that up
> 
> ...


How about someone can kick bijudama away with shunshin?

Madara is never touching Naruto.


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## uchihakil (Jan 6, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Lol no one said sasuke could beat Madara in a fight. What are you on about?
> 
> He sure didn't. He shot bombs at the mass of arms that plowed through them, and got his PS Punched off.
> 
> ...




> Yea you agree madara will beat sasuke but not naruto?? who share the same stat (defence and reaction) ??? Thats a sign of fanboyism my guy.

- You can't argue against the fact that they share the same stats (atleast defence and reaction)

- yet you claim one can be beaten and the other wont.

SMH.


> Lets assume 1 shockwave wont suffice, (not saying agreeing with you that it can't BTW, i just want to wreck your argument in and out). Madara has 2 of those blades, with which he cut down several hotei hands and 6 motherfucking mountains, is that enough fire power or you still think its not??

> EMS madara is superior to EMS sasuke with kyuubi and CM amp, plane and simple, and almost everything in naruto is about how potent one's chakra is and how they can put it in their respective techniques, and madara has all that in the bag.

- He has more chakra quantity
- More chakra quality
- More experienced


we all know what powerup doujutsu in naruto, and all of the factors i listed above increases one's doujutsu prowess, and madara is superior in all those categories, saying because he has no feats or the leisure of fighting juubito and sasuke had thus he can track juubito and madara can't is horeshit, especially after you agreed that madara can and will own sasuke, it seems you're just wanking naruto and putting him on a level he's not reached (no offence).


Madara's two PS blades were able to cut down 6 mountains in HALF bruh, with his SHOCKWAVE, SHOCKWAAAAAAAAVE BRUH, you still dont know how OP an attack has to be for its shockwave to achieve suck a feat, his shockwave should pale in compaarison to what his original attack is, madara will murder naruto.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The Great One (Jan 6, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> > Yea you agree madara will beat sasuke but not naruto?? who share the same stat (defence and reaction) ??? Thats a sign of fanboyism my guy.
> 
> - You can't argue against the fact that they share the same stats (atleast defence and reaction)
> 
> ...


So how do you even know Madara will be able to hit him with his blades?

a non restricted Naruto simply flys around Madara with that biju bomb kicking shunshin + SM reaction & Sensing while spamming biju dama around him.

yeah Madara has SHOCKWAVE which is his strongest attack... and only attack.

and that was not shockwave that was a chakra attack like Samurai in land of iron uses.


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## uchihakil (Jan 6, 2018)

Batzzaro29 said:


> How about someone can kick bijudama away with shunshin?
> 
> Madara is never touching Naruto.




How is that a shuunshin feat? i dont know why yall claim naruto used shuunshin, it was never stated and from what we saw he slapped the TBB's with a chakra fragment of kurama, can someone like break it down for me cuz for the life of me i dont see how that was shuunshin especially with the fact that shuunshin has never ever displayed a feat like that and it doesn't make sense that a technique thats used for speed, can be used to deflect BD's


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## The Great One (Jan 6, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> How is that a shuunshin feat? i dont know why yall claim naruto used shuunshin, it was never stated and from what we saw he slapped the TBB's with a chakra fragment of kurama, can someone like break it down for me cuz for the life of me i dont see how that was shuunshin especially with the fact that shuunshin has never ever displayed a feat like that and it doesn't make sense that a technique thats used for speed, can be used to deflect BD's


Do you even read manga? go read chapter 571, page 1 - 5.

Naruto first uses shunshin to deflect 5 TBB around chapter 3 then goes BM around ch 5... EMS Madara in no circumstances touching even BM Naruto let alone BSM.


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## uchihakil (Jan 6, 2018)

Batzzaro29 said:


> So how do you even know Madara will be able to hit him with his blades?
> 
> a non restricted Naruto simply flys around Madara with that biju bomb kicking shunshin + SM reaction & Sensing while spamming biju dama around him.
> 
> ...



First off, naruto can't fly, its the other way around, madara is the one mlre likely to do that, but it doesn't matter, naruto displayed the ability to fight mid air, but madara will still have the edge in maneuvering in mid air.

And that was madara's power dowing that not a jutsu, you'll have to prove its a jutsu. Cuz the databook confirms it being madara's power and not a jutsu.

 Ninjutsu,all ranges,kekke-genkai,offensive,defensive.
Users: Uchiha Madara
Eternity reigns within these pupils,allowing to shape the bravery into clad blue!
The power of the "Mangekyo Sharingan" is able to activate incredible ninjutsu.Enormous chakra clad jutsu materialize, towering over the mountains( exceeding the height of the mountains), taking authority over battlefield to its hands(changing the flow of battle).Appearance of the complete jutsu differs in accordance to the user.Moreover for users that are good at ninjutsu "Susano'o"themselves,becomes possible to enter/trigger the invocation of the complete body(kanseitai).Furthermore Susano'o in next form can wear special armor which can shape/turn on wings that allow it to fly.
Picture: *the great complete Susano'o cutting strength that can cut-off mountain peaks*,is easily enough to shut down even iron hard resistance (or is enough to make even iron-hard enemies to forfeit the battle).


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## uchihakil (Jan 6, 2018)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Do you even read manga? go read chapter 571, page 1 - 5.
> 
> Naruto first uses shunshin to deflect 5 TBB around chapter 3 then goes BM around ch 5... EMS Madara in no circumstances touching even BM Naruto let alone BSM.




Not touching BM naruto?? laughable, when he's equal to someone madara will stomp

And yes i've read the fucking manga numerous times and i still dont see how that was shuunshin because;

- It was never stated in the manga that it was shuunshin

- Naruto never moved from his spot but instead used a piece of kurama chakra to deflect the tbb's.

- it was never stated the db

- shuunshin never having a feat like that even from charaters that are faster.

So how did yall come to the conclusion that it was shuunshin


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## The Great One (Jan 6, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> First off, naruto can't fly, its the other way around, madara is the one mlre likely to do that, but it doesn't matter, naruto displayed the ability to fight mid air, but madara will still have the edge in maneuvering in mid air.
> 
> And that was madara's power dowing that not a jutsu, you'll have to prove its a jutsu. Cuz the databook confirms it being madara's power and not a jutsu.
> 
> ...


 Madara's was not even shown to jump... also having wings means nothing.

this bird also has wings 
go ahead and tell me that bird can fly.

also data book?


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 6, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> How? In what way?
> So what you're saying is that BSM Naruto could hold his own against the Juubi? Because I don't understand why you would bring that up
> No, I'm saying someone who can cleave a MOUNTAIN RANGE in half with the AIR PRESSURE is stronger than someone with their strongest attack blowing up one mountain.
> By that logic it has no feats against Kakashi, therefore it cant hurt Kakashi
> No sht it doesn't. That's not what we're arguing. If you want to go that way, a Katon: Fireball jutsu is stronger than a rasengan because Sasuke's fireball is stronger than Konohamaru's rasengan. So you're saying Naruto is Juubi level because he can survive an attack from the Juubi? When was he it? you mean the little hand that was flailing around? or do you mean the one juubidama directed at them, and they had to formulate a plan to deflect it because everyone knew EVERYONE WAS SCREWED. Minato was the only reason they even lived as long as they did


Wait. Do you seriously not know BM Naruto took a direct Jubi Laser? Is that why your confused? 


Nuttynutdude said:


> You seem to not know the difference between Obito and the jinchuriki's.
> 
> Let me enlighten you:
> Obito was almost landing hits on Naruto if he wasn't also fighting Killer Bee, Gated Guy, and Kakashi
> ...


 if you want to have a conversation about Obito, make a thread so it's relevant.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 6, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> > Yea you agree madara will beat sasuke but not naruto?? who share the same stat (defence and reaction) ??? Thats a sign of fanboyism my guy.
> 
> - You can't argue against the fact that they share the same stats (atleast defence and reaction)
> 
> ...


Once again, you are having another argument where your only evidence is your own speculation. 

Madara can track the same speed? Never happened.

Not handing out feats is fanboyism? You got it backward. Hyping your fave off of someone else is fanboyism, your name and avi is icing on the fanboy cake.

Oh he can cut a mountain top, not even destroy a whole mountain? 
Great, again so could pre Pain fight Naruto. 
Still does not out him on the level of a jubi Dama does it?
Unless you think that Naruto is Jubi level too.

How fast is Jubito? Faster than a guy Madara called the fastest shinobi. And Naruto can cut him off mid flight.

Lol and since PS is not bigger than 5 tailed beast even BM Naruto can knock him on his ass with a roar. 
Or as you would say, SHOOOOOOOOOCCCKKKKKKEEWAAAAAAAVEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!


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## uchihakil (Jan 6, 2018)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Madara's was not even shown to jump... also having wings means nothing.
> 
> this bird also has wings
> go ahead and tell me that bird can fly.
> ...




> Databook says all PS have wings and can fly 

> Madara was shown to have wings

> every other PS flew


Go ahead and claim juudara can't use juubidama or shukaku can't use bijuu damai because they didn't, and see how stupid your argument is. If you can't piece statements together, then i have no reason to debate with you, cuz there are things called PIS, CIS and ofcourse the mangaka wont show us every SINGLE FEAT a character has, especially a villain he wants to get rid off. That is why we have the frigging DATABOOK to clarify the content of the manga for us.

There are things i'm done debating, this is one of them.


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## uchihakil (Jan 6, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Once again, you are having another argument where your only evidence is your own speculation.
> 
> Madara can track the same speed? Never happened.
> 
> ...




Try to ignore the fact that naruto is equal to the dude madara will stomp, you have'nt addressed that because you know its true but instead came at me with PS is not bigger than 5 bijuus and what not bs (and yess madara's PS is fucking bigger than sasuke's Susano which is equal to half kurama and all the other tailbeasts).


You still dont understand how power in the narutoverse work right?? lemme give you an example then. 

> COR has a bigger AOE but its not more potent than third raikage's nukite, both attacks function differently same with PS blade and BD. They function differently so you can't expect them to show the same result, your logic is flawed you need to check on your inner fanboy its all over the place bruh.

As i said and will say it again, madara murders EMS sasuke (which yall dont have a problem with because he's not your fave lmao) the sasuke who has comparable stats to naruto.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 6, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> Try to ignore the fact that naruto is equal to the dude madara will stomp, you have'nt addressed that because you know its true


A) sasuke is not equal to Naruto.
B) i haven't addressed it for the same reasons I'm not arguing with nutty about Obito. It's not true, relevant, or the thread we are in. Regardless of how much you want to make it so.


uchihakil said:


> but instead came at me with PS is not bigger than 5 bijuus and what not bs (and yess madara's PS is fucking bigger than sasuke's Susano which is equal to half kurama and all the other tailbeasts).


Is PS larger than the combined mass of 5 biju? No.
Then he goes flying lol. Simple.


uchihakil said:


> You still dont understand how power in the narutoverse work right?? lemme give you an example then.


Oh! It's conjecture time!


uchihakil said:


> > COR has a bigger AOE but its not more potent than third raikage's nukite, both attacks function differently same with PS blade and BD.


What makes you say any of that?


uchihakil said:


> They function differently so you can't expect them to show the same result, your logic is flawed you need to check on your inner fanboy its all over the place bruh.


You are the one trying to put one of Madara's attacks above a Jubi Dama. 

You are the one trying to give Madara other people's feats and experience.

Thus, you are the fanboy.

How am I a fanboy by going off of feats?


uchihakil said:


> As i said and will say it again, madara murders EMS sasuke (which yall dont have a problem with because he's not your fave lmao) the sasuke who has comparable stats to naruto.


Nope I'm just choosing to stay on topic.
Naruto isn't my favorite character, btw or even my 5th. You on the other hand are as usual on a quest to imagine what abilities Madara MIGHT have had and present them like manga facts.

Get some feats or concede.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 6, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> A) sasuke is not equal to Naruto.
> B) i haven't addressed it for the same reasons I'm not arguing with nutty about Obito. It's not true, relevant, or the thread we are in. Regardless of how much you want to make it so.
> 
> Is PS larger than the combined mass of 5 biju? No.
> ...




Yes Naruto is equal to Sasuke as far as defence and reaction goes, and it is relevant because madara will stomp sasuke. You can keep claiming its not relevant to the topic at hand, but its simple scaling really. 


And i'm not giving madara feats he doesn't have, just using simple manga guidelines and scaling from that, like the fact that doujutsu get stronger with experience and what not which madara has over sasuke, and ofcourse chakra quantity and quality which madara is superior also in, so yes i'm just abiding by statements in the manga to make my argument.


PS is not larger than the combined mass of the 5 bijuu but naruto didn't throw off the combined mass, he threw them individually, so thats a bad example, cuz madara is stronger than the 5 bijuu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 6, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> Yes Naruto is equal to Sasuke as far as defence and reaction goes, and it is relevant because madara will stomp sasuke. You can keep claiming its not relevant to the topic at hand, but its simple scaling really.


Been fighting for 2 days straight Naruto,  and Amped way beyond his norm Sasuke are still not equal. 
Again here is my reasoning as to why Naruto will win.
Very little of this applies to Sasuke 


Hi no Ishi said:


> Okay here's why I think Naruto will win.
> 
> 
> Offensive: A much weaker FKS Sage Naruto can knock Kurama over and even hurt the hell out of him with his jutsu, and while Madara's PS is said to rival the tailed beasts in power, there is no reason to believe Madara is much tougher than Kurama physically so the added experience, and powerful chakra of Naruto in BSM should do terrible damage to him.
> ...





uchihakil said:


> And i'm not giving madara feats he doesn't have, just using simple manga guidelines and scaling from that, like the fact that doujutsu get stronger with experience and what not which madara has over sasuke, and ofcourse chakra quantity and quality which madara is superior also in, so yes i'm just abiding by statements in the manga to make my argument.


Yes you clearly are handing out feats. 
How do we know? You are saying person who has no feats of doing so can damage someone the Jubi can barely hurt with a Jubi Dama directly.
Putting Madara anywhere close to that power level is fanboyism because there is no feats or portrayal to support it.
Then you are saying he can keep up with Naruto who was catching Jubito with his avatar rather than his arrows.

If you want to scale so bad Jubito is confirmed much stronger than Hashirama who is much stronger than Madara. 
So Naruto couldn't be killed by someone much stronger than Hashirama, but you think someone much weaker than Hashirama can with no feats ? Even scaling says no.

Having the same or similar eyes does not mean you have the same abilities with those eyes lol. They are all different. Next thread you will be claiming Madara wins via Enton Arrows because Sasuke can.


uchihakil said:


> PS is not larger than the combined mass of the 5 bijuu but naruto didn't throw off the combined mass, he threw them individually, so thats a bad example, cuz madara is stronger than the 5 bijuu.


Lol unless his mass is much greater than theirs, and nothing says he is at all, he is going flying. 

And by the way you still haven't brought one feat or statement to support your claims.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## uchihakil (Jan 6, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Been fighting for 2 days straight Naruto,  and Amped way beyond his norm Sasuke are still not equal.
> Again here is my reasoning as to why Naruto will win.
> Very little of this applies to Sasuke
> 
> ...




*deep sigh* were should i begin.

First of all, your logic is flawed, just because naruto fought a stronger character/juubi doesn't mean he can beat madara, cuz he didn't fight alone to begin with, and by your logic BSM naruto should beat SM hashirama. Which we know for a fact is not true, so your whole logic is flawed. 


> And yes his mass is greater than theirs, if you really think naruto will send madara with PS flying with his scream you are out of your fucking mind LMAO, whats next he can fart away madara's PS lmfao *smfh*

> Having same eyes doesn't mean they have the same abilities?? In all honesty i started taking you seriously but now i really dont, lemme just finish this reply and i'm done. I dont know if you missed the fact that the sharingan have some similar techniques like fucking precog which i'm talking about not MS abilities, but since you dont know even that i woulda suggested you go reread the manga but i'm pretty sure you're a troll who is having a hard time believing naruto loses. 


> He claims naruto couldn't be killed by juubito, please go and make a thread with BSM naruto and juubito, talking as if naruto's ass wasn't saved numerous times against juubito tsk tsk 

> BSm naruto couldn't be killed by juubito he says (i'm fucking screaming lmfao). lets see.

- was saved by minato with ftg when juubito grabbed naru/sasuke's head and was bout to vapourise them.

- saved by minato from quad juubidama

- saved by Hiruzen from the god tree

- saved by sasuke whilst he was falling

Anywho, its not like you didn't know any of this, but your inner fanboy is acting up, no worries.


Madara shits on Naruto


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 6, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> *deep sigh* were should i begin.


With some actual feats is usually a good place.


uchihakil said:


> First of all, your logic is flawed, just because naruto fought a stronger character/juubi doesn't mean he can beat madara, cuz he didn't fight alone to begin with, and by your logic BSM naruto should beat SM hashirama. Which we know for a fact is not true, so your whole logic is flawed.


Lol that's the point. You have no evidence besides nonsense scaling which is subjective.


uchihakil said:


> > And yes his mass is greater than theirs, if you really think naruto will send madara with PS flying with his scream you are out of your fucking mind LMAO, whats next he can fart away madara's PS lmfao *smfh


Even though he isn't bigger than them and is made of Madara's chakra he is somehow impossibly heavier than them now too? Please back at least something you say up. Anything.


uchihakil said:


> > Having same eyes doesn't mean they have the same abilities?? In all honesty i started taking you seriously but now i really dont, lemme just finish this reply and i'm done. I dont know if you missed the fact that the sharingan have some similar techniques like fucking precog which i'm talking about not MS abilities, but since you dont know even that i woulda suggested you go reread the manga but i'm pretty sure you're a troll who is having a hard time believing naruto loses.


The reason all you have is ad hominem attacks is because you have no feats to argue with.

You are the one claiming Madara has Sasuke's tracking feats.

You are the one claiming Madara has Power that surpasses a Jubi laser.

You are the one claiming Madara has that can catch someone who can compete with a Jubi.

But you have supplied not one Iota of proof.

Can you? 


uchihakil said:


> > He claims naruto couldn't be killed by juubito, please go and make a thread with BSM naruto and juubito, talking as if naruto's ass wasn't saved numerous times against juubito tsk tsk
> 
> > BSm naruto couldn't be killed by juubito he says (i'm fucking screaming lmfao). lets see.
> 
> ...



Half of those don't involve BSM Naruto, and none of them hype Madara enough to pretend he can do something here. 

So can you cut out the diversions and bring something more than the "I bet Madara could..." You have supplied so far.

Do you have feats or not. It's that simple.


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## uchihakil (Jan 7, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> With some actual feats is usually a good place.
> 
> Lol that's the point. You have no evidence besides nonsense scaling which is subjective.
> 
> ...




I dont want anyone reading this thread to think i conceded, cuz i noticed i have'nt addressed some of your points like the claim you keep making that BSM naruto is faster than someone madara said was faster than him.

So for starters Tobirama and Minato earn the title of being the fastest shinobi because of hiraishin not footspeed, so your argument is moot, Minato became the fastest shinobi because of ftg not footspeed so also tobirama, and being the fastest doesn't make him superior to madara, nor did raikage beat madara with speed. So speed difference doesn't give an auto win to begin with, you keep bringing in the speed argument like its gonna help naruto win, guess what, madara fought faster characters than him and won.

Secondly you dont seem to know how big PS is, well PS is as big as full kurama which is bigger than half kurama which naruto has in this matchup. Madara's legged susano which got shat on by the bijuu's was as big as the bijuus individually, and when madara used PS against the 5 kages, we saw how big his PS was compared to his legged susano, the 5 kage jinton enveloped the whole 25 legged susano and when madara used PS, the jinton cube was only half his size, further reenforcing the fact that PS = Full kurama in size. (BTW this is a 2014/15 argument). It is general knowledge now. I just want to embarrass you thats why i'm here entertaining your argument lol.

3rdly i went back to reread the fight with hashirama and madara and made a discovery or noted something i missed, actually madara cut 6 mountains with just 1 MOTHERFUCKING BLADE not two. So his SHOCKWAVE could FUCKING CUT 6 MOUNTAINS WITH A SINGLE BLADE. I TAKE IT BACK THAT ITS GOING TO BE A HIGH DIFF FIGHT FOR MADARA, MADARA WTFSTOMPS NARUTO.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 7, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> I dont want anyone reading this thread to think i conceded, cuz i noticed i have'nt addressed some of your points like the claim you keep making that BSM naruto is faster than someone madara said was faster than him.


Addressing at least one point would be great, I guess.

Feats would be better.



uchihakil said:


> So for starters Tobirama and Minato earn the title of being the fastest shinobi because of hiraishin not footspeed, so your argument is moot, Minato became the fastest shinobi because of ftg not footspeed so also tobirama, and being the fastest doesn't make him superior to madara, nor did raikage beat madara with speed. So speed difference doesn't give an auto win to begin with, you keep bringing in the speed argument like its gonna help naruto win, guess what, madara fought faster characters than him and won.


Speed difference isn't an auto win and it's a tiny portion of what I wrote so please don't be disengenous and pretend that's all I said. 

You also need to provide proof that they were faster only due to FTG as that is stated no where. 

Now please tell what faster characters Madara fought against and won ?


uchihakil said:


> Secondly you dont seem to know how big PS is, well PS is as big as full kurama which is bigger than half kurama which naruto has in this matchup. Madara's legged susano which got shat on by the bijuu's was as big as the bijuus individually, and when madara used PS against the 5 kages, we saw how big his PS was compared to his legged susano, the 5 kage jinton enveloped the whole 25 legged susano and when madara used PS, the jinton cube was only half his size, further reenforcing the fact that PS = Full kurama in size. (BTW this is a 2014/15 argument). It is general knowledge now. I just want to embarrass you thats why i'm here entertaining your argument lol.


Sigh.
No one ever said it wasn't of comparable size to a tailed beast. That just did not help any other of the tailed beast either did it? Mass and weight is still a thing. 


uchihakil said:


> 3rdly i went back to reread the fight with hashirama and madara and made a discovery or noted something i missed, actually madara cut 6 mountains with just 1 MOTHERFUCKING BLADE not two. So his SHOCKWAVE could FUCKING CUT 6 MOUNTAINS WITH A SINGLE BLADE. I TAKE IT BACK THAT ITS GOING TO BE A HIGH DIFF FIGHT FOR MADARA, MADARA WTFSTOMPS NARUTO.



Woah, lol. Calm down a bit buddy it's ok it's just a manga. 
I'm sorry your fave got clearly surpassed.
It's going to be ok. You don't need to yell.

Now once again are you trying to say Madara's attacks a lot more than a Jubi Dama, or not?


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 7, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You are the one trying to put one of Madara's attacks above a Jubi Dama.


And you think 
1. the air coming off a moving object is stronger than the object itself(You have a hand, try it!)
2. that beacuse you LIVED an attack that you are on the same level as that. Welp. That means Jiraiya is nine tails level. And Bee is Nagato level. And Minato is Juubi level. And Madara is Hashirama level. Whoopee


Hi no Ishi said:


> Is PS larger than the combined mass of 5 biju? No.


What does this prove? if we were going by size=power, then Hokage Naruto<Raikage, and rinnegan Sasuke< part 1 Kakashi


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 7, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I'm sorry your fave got clearly surpassed.
> It's going to be ok. You don't need to yell.
> 
> Now once again are you trying to say Madara's attacks a lot more than a Jubi Dama, or not?


siiighhhhhh. C'mon man. I had so much faith in you. 
1. Naruto has shown nothing to have surpassed the 100% Kyuubi
2. Madara's PS tanked a Bijuudama from the 100% Kyuubi
3. Naruto did tank a Juubidama, but saying that because you lived through an attack therefore you are on that level is a logical fallacy
4. Madara did not, contrary to what you keep saying, snip off one mountaintop with his strongest attack. he blew apart a MOUNTAIN RANGE, keyword RANGE, let's say it again, RANGE, with the AIR PRESSURE. 

Let's do a in-your-home experiment

Hit a book. mmk? just hit it. 

Now wave your hand at it as fast as you can. this is a bad example, as it gives you more wind than Madara had access to, but let's just go with it.

Did the book get blown away? No? I wonder why. Maybe because of simple physics


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 7, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. the air coming off a moving object is stronger than the object itself(You have a hand, try it!)


I never said it wasnt, silly. I said the uncatchable part can be considered more dangerous and the blade itself has no good feats to show it having a higher power. Even if it's reasonable conjecture 


Nuttynutdude said:


> That means Jiraiya is nine tails level.


You mean Kn4 level. He is.


Nuttynutdude said:


> And Bee is Nagato level.


You mean he can tank an ST. He can.


Nuttynutdude said:


> And Minato is Juubi level.


You mean he can neg a bijudama. 


Nuttynutdude said:


> And Madara is Hashirama level


Nope. Madara got his was whooped with help.


Nuttynutdude said:


> What does this prove? if we were going by size=power, then Hokage Naruto<Raikage, and rinnegan Sasuke< part 1 Kakashi


Read the discussion. Naruto can send tailed beast sized objects flying with a roar in cannon


Nuttynutdude said:


> siiighhhhhh. C'mon man. I had so much faith in you.


Thanks. Don't give up yet.


Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. Naruto has shown nothing to have surpassed the 100% Kyuubi


A) A neither has Madara



Nuttynutdude said:


> 2. Madara's PS tanked a Bijuudama from the 100% Kyuubi


One to the blades yes. Good thing The Kyubii has a much more limited fighting style than Naruto 


Nuttynutdude said:


> 3. Naruto did tank a Juubidama, but saying that because you lived through an attack therefore you are on that level is a logical fallacy


Again, that has never been my point. 
It's that if a Jubi Dama can't get through his defenses cleanly, some thing of less power like Madara's swings definitely won't either. 
And this is the sage mode, i.e. a much tougher version of that character.

It's not that Naruto is Jubi level for taking that hit, it's that Marada has nothing stronger or even as strong as that hit, and this Naruto can likely take a lot more than that.


Nuttynutdude said:


> 4. Madara did not, contrary to what you keep saying, snip off one mountaintop with his strongest attack. he blew apart a MOUNTAIN RANGE, keyword RANGE, let's say it again, RANGE, with the AIR PRESSURE.


He cut the tops off of several mountains with the Kyubii, and 2 on his own.

Now go look at a Jubi Dama and what it did to an area.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Let's do a in-your-home experiment
> 
> Hit a book. mmk? just hit it.
> 
> ...


 that was fun! Let's do another! 
1) First cut two oranges with a knife.
2) Then put a hand grenade next to them, and pull the pin.
3) Run.
4) go explain to the police that the knife was just as powerful.
5) enjoy your time in the asylum
6) profit?


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## Braiyan (Jan 7, 2018)

It's quite possible that Kurama wearing PS as armor boosted PS itself, considering that Madara never shows the same level of power on his own. Just compare him cutting the tops of multiple mountain ranges vs just 2 when he was facing the Gokage. Or making mincemeat out of Hashi's Golem with Kurama vs trading blows with Edo Hashi's Golem. If that is the case, then he is even less likely to be cutting through BSM Naruto's avatar, when even BM has impressive durability feats.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 7, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I never said it wasnt, silly. I said the uncatchable part can be considered more dangerous and the blade itself has no good feats to show it having a higher power. Even if it's reasonable conjecture


IF the blade and air pressure were the same strength, yes. The fact that the wind pushed off from something is a tiny fraction of the strength due to conservation of energy makes it not as dangerous. If you're going off of the wood golem, that thing also caught a Bijuudama from the 100% Kyuubi


Hi no Ishi said:


> You mean Kn4 level. He is.


"one of the two times i was left near death"


Hi no Ishi said:


> You mean he can tank an ST. He can.


That does not mean he is on his level. Otherwise i can say there's a guy in japan that was city level because he lived through the bombs dropped on japan. 


Hi no Ishi said:


> Nope. Madara got his was whooped with help.


EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING. JUST BECAUSE YOU LIVED THROUGH AN ATTACK FROM SOMEONE DOESNT MEAN YOU ARE ON THEIR LEVEL.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Read the discussion. Naruto can send tailed beast sized objects flying with a roar in cannon


And Madara, again, swung his sword and destroyed a mountain range.


Hi no Ishi said:


> One to the blades yes. Good thing The Kyubii has a much more limited fighting style than Naruto


What more does Naruto have? A rasengan? a slightly bigger rasengan? A tiny rasengan? A wind style rasengan? a slightly different rasengan?


Hi no Ishi said:


> It's that if a Jubi Dama can't get through his defenses cleanly, some thing of less power like Madara's swings definitely won't either.


So if i hit you once, that means i cannot beat you up because i couldn't do it in one hit?


Hi no Ishi said:


> He cut the tops off of several mountains with the Kyubii, and 2 on his own.
> 
> Now go look at a Jubi Dama and what it did to an area.


1. Naruto will die if he is caught in a juubidama
2. Mhmm. And the tops were not only thrown up in the air, but those mountains are significantly larger than the valley of the end. Remember those pillars of stone around the division that fought Gengetsu? well


You can see them here too. They look like ants


Hi no Ishi said:


> that was fun! Let's do another!
> 1) First cut two oranges with a knife.
> 2) Then put a hand grenade next to them, and pull the pin.
> 3) Run.
> ...


You obviously have no idea how this works. You cannot say, well, one was similar. and the other was similar. therefore it was a good metaphor. That's like saying, oh. a cannon is weaker than a bear biting you. See? we took this paper and rubber band projectile launcher and it didn't pierce the wood, but this spear did!


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 7, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> IF the blade and air pressure were the same strength, yes. The fact that the wind pushed off from something is a tiny fraction of the strength due to conservation of energy makes it not as dangerous. If you're going off of the wood golem, that thing also caught a Bijuudama from the 100% Kyuubi


I was talking about the wooden hands he caught the blade with actually.



Nuttynutdude said:


> "one of the two times i was left near death"


V2 Jinchuriki, no knowledge, no KI, sealing only, but still won. So yeah.


Nuttynutdude said:


> That does not mean he is on his level. Otherwise i can say there's a guy in japan that was city level because he lived through the bombs dropped on japan.


Literally just told you that's not what I meant. Please read before posting.


Nuttynutdude said:


> EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING. JUST BECAUSE YOU LIVED THROUGH AN ATTACK FROM SOMEONE DOESNT MEAN YOU ARE ON THEIR LEVEL.





Hi no Ishi said:


> Again, that has never been my point.
> It's that if a Jubi Dama can't get through his defenses cleanly, some thing of less power like Madara's swings definitely won't either.
> And this is the sage mode, i.e. a much tougher version of that character.
> 
> It's not that Naruto is Jubi level for taking that hit, it's that Marada has nothing stronger or even as strong as that hit, and this Naruto can likely take a lot more than that.


See, you could have read and saved some screaming.



Nuttynutdude said:


> And Madara, again, swung his sword and destroyed a mountain range.


Cutting mountain tops does not equal destroying a mountain range, let alone equal a Jubi Dama.


Nuttynutdude said:


> What more does Naruto have? A rasengan? a slightly bigger rasengan? A tiny rasengan? A wind style rasengan? a slightly different rasengan?


Oh, look yet another question answered in detail already! I won't make you scroll back a whole page, so here ya go!


Hi no Ishi said:


> Okay here's why I think Naruto will win.
> 
> 
> Offensive: A much weaker FKS Sage Naruto can knock Kurama over and even hurt the hell out of him with his jutsu, and while Madara's PS is said to rival the tailed beasts in power, there is no reason to believe Madara is much tougher than Kurama physically so the added experience, and powerful chakra of Naruto in BSM should do terrible damage to him.





Hi no Ishi said:


> Also having power that rivals the tailed beasts is great unless your dealing with someone who on their first transformation was able to handle beating down and choking out several tailed beasts at once and able to quickly match and exceed their combined output.
> Finally, his normal sage mode clones are able to throw and slam Kurama so them throwing PS, who is of comparable size is not unlikely especially with Naruto's penchant for clone feints, and history of feinting everyone of note in the manga.
> 
> Defensively: Madara has nothing comparable to a Jubii Dama or even close and he would need a ton more firepower than that to pierce that same form in Sage Mode.
> ...





Nuttynutdude said:


> So if i hit you once, that means i cannot beat you up because i couldn't do it in one hit?


No but if my punches dont hurt you when when you are sick, should I assume my 5 year old daughter's punches will knock you out when you are healthy.

It is illogical assume that Madara's attacks will hurt Naruto hardly at all when a Jubi Dama could not get through a weaker for than this. Unless you think Madara's attacks are much stronger than the Jubi Dama?


Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. Naruto will die if he is caught in a juubidama


Read chapter 610 "Jubi". Naruto is struck directly by on and the tips of 6 tails are damaged. This is that Naruto in sage mode.


Nuttynutdude said:


> 2. Mhmm. And the tops were not only thrown up in the air, but those mountains are significantly larger than the valley of the end. Remember those pillars of stone around the division that fought Gengetsu? well


None of that comes close to erasing a mountain range. 
 Seriously look at a Jubi Dama please.


Nuttynutdude said:


> You obviously have no idea how this works. You cannot say, well, one was similar. and the other was similar. therefore it was a good metaphor. That's like saying, oh. a cannon is weaker than a bear biting you. See? we took this paper and rubber band projectile launcher and it didn't pierce the wood, but this spear did!


No I pointed out why your examples don't work. 

Now are you trying to say Madara's attacks are stronger than a Jubi Dama or not?


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## uchihakil (Jan 8, 2018)

Braiyan said:


> It's quite possible that Kurama wearing PS as armor boosted PS itself, considering that Madara never shows the same level of power on his own. Just compare him cutting the tops of multiple mountain ranges vs just 2 when he was facing the Gokage. Or making mincemeat out of Hashi's Golem with Kurama vs trading blows with Edo Hashi's Golem. If that is the case, then he is even less likely to be cutting through BSM Naruto's avatar, when even BM has impressive durability feats.




No kurama didn't boost PS, it was PS arm that made that swing, kurama's forearms were on the ground and susano arm made the swing, and also thats one thing that parts a perfect jinchuriki with someone controlling the bijuu's power, they are not in 100% perfect sync like perfect jinchuriki's that can take the bijuus chakra for their own, madara can not feed off of kurama's chakra, so yes that is a madara only feat.

And the reason madara didn't replicate a similar feat is because well they were only two mountains when he was edo, so how can he cut other non existing mountains even if he was stronger?? He can't, the terrain was different.


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## Braiyan (Jan 8, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> No kurama didn't boost PS, it was PS arm that made that swing, kurama's forearms were on the ground and susano arm made the swing, and also thats one thing that parts a perfect jinchuriki with someone controlling the bijuu's power, they are not in 100% perfect sync like perfect jinchuriki's that can take the bijuus chakra for their own, madara can not feed off of kurama's chakra, so yes that is a madara only feat.
> 
> And the reason madara didn't replicate a similar feat is because well they were only two mountains when he was edo, so how can he cut other non existing mountains even if he was stronger?? He can't, the terrain was different.



Luckily I included that second example of him making mincemeat out of Hashi's Golem vs failing to do so against Edo Hashi's Golem.

Reactions: Like 1


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## vasto lordes (Jan 8, 2018)

1) 4 Jubi Dama obliterate edo rinnagan PS
2) 4 Jubi Dama couldn't destroy Six Red Yang Formation and shikamaru said that Six Red Yang Formation=Four Red Yang   Formation in durability.
3) jubito chakra arms broke Four Red Yang Formation with ease.
4) minato and naruto tails/chakra arms both was able to over power jubito chakra arms.
5) minato and naruto rasengan destroy jubito chakra arms with ease and then almost creak TSB shield.

so in durability
TSB shield>minato and naruto rasengan>jubito chakra arms=naruto chakra arms>Four Red Yang Formation/Six Red Yang Formation>4 Jubi Dama >edo rinnagan PS>EMS PS+kurama>EMS PS

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Jan 8, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I was talking about the wooden hands he caught the blade with actually.


That has nothing to do with what we're talking about


Hi no Ishi said:


> V2 Jinchuriki, no knowledge, no KI, sealing only, but still won. So yeah.


V2 Jinchuriki lol. It was the nine tails that weakened the seal. Not a perfect Jinchuriki of the nine tails.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Literally just told you that's not what I meant. Please read before posting.


It may not have been what you meant, but if you read all the examples as a whole, it's what you said.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Cutting mountain tops does not equal destroying a mountain range, let alone equal a Jubi Dama.


1. No, but, again, that was the WIND COMING OFF THE SWORD. I cannot say this enough. again, try it in your home. see how strong it is. Then think, oh. The wind did that, not his sword. If he hits you with the sword instead of the air, maybe it will be stronger
2. Naruto cannot tank a Juubidama. Thats just flat out not true. Otherwise you can say Jiraiya can tank 4 tailed Naruto because he didn't die when he was hit with it. And regen really doesn't count, if you heal relatively quickly, that doesn't mean what hit you can't kill you.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Read chapter 610 "Jubi". Naruto is struck directly by on and the tips of 6 tails are damaged. This is that Naruto in sage mode.


You mean right after Obito says "I don't want to exhaust too much of the ten tail's chakra"?
And the attack that had a significantly smaller explosion than the ones used before? The same one that had a much smaller chargeup time?


Hi no Ishi said:


> None of that comes close to erasing a mountain range.


Naruto never had anything that destroyed a mountain range. I thought you said mountain? You're changing stuff on me.


Hi no Ishi said:


> No I pointed out why your examples don't work.


no lmao you really really didn't. You performed a completely different thing that was nowhere near the same thing. 

Again, lets go over it slowly because i know it's very complicated

Wave your hand at a book, as hard as you would like. as much as you want

Now hit the book lightly with your hand, with a fraction of the strength.

See how much stronger that is? No? Are you going to make up another bs argument like, "oh wind is a knife and my hand is a grenade. That's a good comparison!"

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 9, 2018)

vasto lordes said:


> 1) 4 Jubi Dama obliterate edo rinnagan PS
> 2) 4 Jubi Dama couldn't destroy Six Red Yang Formation and shikamaru said that Six Red Yang Formation=Four Red Yang   Formation in durability.
> 3) jubito chakra arms broke Four Red Yang Formation with ease.
> 4) minato and naruto tails/chakra arms both was able to over power jubito chakra arms.
> ...




So now naruto can tank quad juubidama lmao, shit is getting better and better, if thats how you debate lemme try using your logic and see were rhis takes us.

> 1 Rinnegan madara >>>> juubito since he stomped Naruto and sasuke, + 9 bijuus and tobirama. 
> By your logic also juubito's drop slam is >>>>> quad juubidama since it destroyed their avatars.
> even hinata could deflect a juubi tail, i guess by your logic also she can tank the juubi's juubidama since she deflected a tail from the juubi.

Anything below what i stated above is not for you, its with people with brains.

Just gonna point out the fact that naruto only tanked an attack from first form juubi which had the weakest juubi dama feat unlike its other forms, the best we saw it do is vapourise mountains. the skinny juubi (second form had a juubidama that reached the upper atmosphere, and the other one with the flower head 5th form was it? had a juubidama as big as the juubi itself, if not for minato naruto will get obliterated. 

The only juubi dama naruto tanked was when the juubi was in its weakest form and you guys keep claiming like he can tank every single juubidama the juubi can fire, guess what? He can't, not because i said so, but because he doesn't have feats to tank stronger juubidama's.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 9, 2018)

Nuttynutdude said:


> That has nothing to do with what we're talking about


Lol you quoted me talking to someone else remember? 


Nuttynutdude said:


> V2 Jinchuriki lol. It was the nine tails that weakened the seal. Not a perfect Jinchuriki of the nine tails.


Naruto has better feats in kn4 than the other Jinchuriki in V2 besides B so yes.

It's odd to watch you try to downplay 2 sides of a thing. First Jiraiya for getting hurt and then Naruto's KN4 strength while hurting him.


Nuttynutdude said:


> It may not have been what you meant, but if you read all the examples as a whole, it's what you said.


It's clearly not. Because you can take a hit does not mean you can hit that hard and I never remotely implied it did.

Taking that hit means a clearly weaker hit won't do so much has always been my point.

You are the one going on and on about weather the blade is stronger than the air pressure or not for some reason. It does not matter, and it has no feats to back it up. 
Headcannon about the blade is not an argument, when it's still clearly got Jack shit on the power of a Jubi Dama.


Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. No, but, again, that was the WIND COMING OFF THE SWORD. I cannot say this enough. again, try it in your home. see how strong it is. Then think, oh. The wind did that, not his sword. If he hits you with the sword instead of the air, maybe it will be stronger
> 2. Naruto cannot tank a Juubidama. Thats just flat out not true. Otherwise you can say Jiraiya can tank 4 tailed Naruto because he didn't die when he was hit with it. And regen really doesn't count, if you heal relatively quickly, that doesn't mean what hit you can't kill you.


1) I can't express enough how caught up you are on this point that is irrelevant to my argument.
Unless you think Madara does the same or better damage with PS as a Jubi Dama it would not really bother the Naruto in this thread.
2) He did and you saw it. What are you on about?


Nuttynutdude said:


> You mean right after Obito says "I don't want to exhaust too much of the ten tail's chakra"?
> And the attack that had a significantly smaller explosion than the ones used before? The same one that had a much smaller chargeup time?


Lol. It charged like all the rest. The Jubi is just fast, as they tell you a couple pages before. That shit was powerful to plow through 9 tailed beast balls from the 2 strongest of the 9 beast and keep going with no change in size or direction, but we are supposed to down play that too?


Nuttynutdude said:


> no lmao you really really didn't. You performed a completely different thing that was nowhere near the same thing.
> 
> Again, lets go over it slowly because i know it's very complicated
> 
> ...



Oh it's not complicated. You are trying to say the blade hurts worse than the air pressure. What you are missing is that neither has the feats to be enough to hurt Naruto given what he has already tanked in a weaker form than this thread.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 9, 2018)

Braiyan said:


> Luckily I included that second example of him making mincemeat out of Hashi's Golem vs failing to do so against Edo Hashi's Golem.




uhm i dont remember EMS madara destroying wood golem in the vote fight, all i can remember of the golem was it redirecting the bijuu dama kurama fired and later on taking control of kurama by placing its palm on its forhead, so when did he destroy wood golem again??? so remind me again when iso susano turned the golem into mincemeat. Show me the page or tell me the page.


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## uchihakil (Jan 9, 2018)

@Hi no Ishi you claim that naruto is not in your top 5 fave list, yet you are in support of a guy who wanked naruto like there is no tomorrow in his post (not that you're not already wanking naruto) but this dude is wanking to insane levels @vasto lordes. Flawed logic and wankery everywhere, welp maayi, keep deceiving yourself.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 9, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> So now naruto can tank quad juubidama lmao, shit is getting better and better, if thats how you debate lemme try using your logic and see were rhis takes us.


Lol you're the one who loves scaling people. It's not fun with other characters?
Just Madara?


uchihakil said:


> > 1 Rinnegan madara >>>> juubito since he stomped Naruto and sasuke, + 9 bijuus and tobirama.


Lol, if Jubito has Known how to just yank out the beast from Naruto it would have been a short short battle with a sad ending.
And that Madara could knock around Biju with just Limbo.


uchihakil said:


> > By your logic also juubito's drop slam is >>>>> quad juubidama since it destroyed their avatars


Being crushed by TSB hands and slammed probably is more damage. TSB are just damn strong.



uchihakil said:


> > even hinata could deflect a juubi tail, i guess by your logic also she can tank the juubi's juubidama since she deflected a tail from the juubi.


No silly. If she deflected a tail them she can deflect a tail. Same as if you can tank a Jubi Dama its because you can tank a Jubi Dama. 

They can do the things we saw them do.



uchihakil said:


> Just gonna point out the fact that naruto only tanked an attack from first form juubi which had the weakest juubi dama feat unlike its other forms, the best we saw it do is vapourise mountains. the skinny juubi (second form had a juubidama that reached the upper atmosphere, and the other one with the flower head 5th form was it? had a juubidama as big as the juubi itself, if not for minato naruto will get obliterated.


Are you trying to say Madara's attacks hurt more than the Jubi's do with this or just deflecting with downplay?


uchihakil said:


> The only juubi dama naruto tanked was when the juubi was in its weakest form and you guys keep claiming like he can tank every single juubidama the juubi can fire, guess what? He can't, not because i said so, but because he doesn't have feats to tank stronger juubidama's.



No one said every Jubi Dama the Jubi has can be tanked one after another or anything like that and you know it.
Nor has Madara shown he has enough power to replicate the effects of even the first form Jubi.

It's not that Naruto has to be as strong as the Jubi because he took that hit. It's that Madara needs some thing stronger than that hit to take down even a weaker Naruto than the one in this thread.
And he has not shown that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 9, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> @Hi no Ishi you claim that naruto is not in your top 5 fave list, yet you are in support of a guy who wanked naruto like there is no tomorrow in his post (not that you're not already wanking naruto) but this dude is wanking to insane levels @vasto lordes. Flawed logic and wankery everywhere, welp maayi, keep deceiving yourself.


He at least tried to provide evidence to back his claims.

You so far have just tried to put Madara's attacks on the same level at the Jubi Dama with out any feats to back it, 
give Madara Sasuke's reactions and experience,
 and pretend like everyone else has a problem for not making the same unfounded assumptions about your favorite as you do.

You know he is your fave, as do we. So why assume everyone ELSE must be a fanboy to NOT just give Madara feats he just does not have?

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 9, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Lol you're the one who loves scaling people. It's not fun with other characters?
> Just Madara?
> 
> Lol, if Jubito has Known how to just yank out the beast from Naruto it would have been a short short battle with a sad ending.
> ...




I'm done debating with you, i only tagged you to point out to anyone reading this thread that you are indeed a fanboy wanking naruto, i wouldn't have stated otherwise if you didn't like @vasto lordes wanking post, which confirmed my suspicions. It doesn't seem like your opinion will change. You claim that that was scaling, (BTW me saying 1 rinnegan madara can >>> juubito was sarcasm) not further entertaining your flawed scaling and wankery. 

PS, saying kurama deflected juubi chakra arms therefor he can tank quad juubidama is the equivalent of saying hinata deflected a juubi arm so she can tank juubi dama. Goodluck with that.


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## uchihakil (Jan 9, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He at least tried to provide evidence to back his claims.
> 
> You so far have just tried to put Madara's attacks on the same level at the Jubi Dama with out any feats to back it,
> give Madara Sasuke's reactions and experience,
> ...




I gave madara sasuke's reaction speed based on what the manga told us that you keep ignoring. What i simply did was use a basic scaling to provide evidence as there are less feats for madara.

- character A and B have similar abilities (PS, choku tomoe) but character A is stronger than character B in every category bar speed that he doesn't have a feat to go with, character A gets scaled to character B because he is stronger. Another example is BM minato and BM naruto, naruto has feats of tanking first form juubi dama, does minato have the same feat? No he doesn't then he gets scaled to naruto because they are basically one and the same. Thats basically all i did.

In this case, i'm scaling madara to someone he's not even equal to, i'm scaling him to someone he's superior to. I'm also scaling madara to sasuke based on what the manga says about sharingan precog, it took less than 5 hours for sasuke to go from not being able to react properly to kabuto to reacting to juubito. And this is not even juubito in this matchup, its BSM naruto who is slower than juubito.


You're finding that hard to swallow already because well, you either hate madara that much, or you wank naruto that much. I assumed it was the former at first but then after that post that you liked, it was clear it was the latter. 

Yea madara will rough up naruto with his two PS blades considering 1 PS blade could cut 6 mountains with just the shockwave, a direct hit from both swords is gonna be potent enough to atleast damage naruto, a couple of those enough to destroy him.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 9, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> I'm done debating with you, i only tagged you to point out to anyone reading this thread that you are indeed a fanboy wanking naruto, i wouldn't have stated otherwise if you didn't like @vasto lordes wanking post, which confirmed my suspicions. It doesn't seem like your opinion will change. You claim that that was scaling, (BTW me saying 1 rinnegan madara can >>> juubito was sarcasm) not further entertaining your flawed scaling and wankery.
> 
> PS, saying kurama deflected juubi chakra arms therefor he can tank quad juubidama is the equivalent of saying hinata deflected a juubi arm so she can tank juubi dama. Goodluck with that.


I also liked and repped  Worldsstrongest  post that almost says the opposite of mine. Am I also a Madara wanker or are you just jumping to conclusions? 

I send a like to almost anyone who makes me think in one if my threads.

There is an agree button for when I fully or mostly agree with someone.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 9, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I also liked and repped  Worldsstrongest  post that almost says the opposite of mine. Am I also a Madara wanker or are you just jumping to conclusions?
> 
> I send a like to almost anyone who makes me think in one if my threads.
> 
> There is an agree button for when I fully or mostly agree with someone.



Lmfao so that post made you think?? 

*shrugs* Maayi 

An offtopic question though, do you think BM naruto can react to anyone BM minato can react to in the naruto manga?? (minato without FTG though).


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 9, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> I gave madara sasuke's reaction speed based on what the manga told us that you keep ignoring. What i simply did was use a basic scaling to provide evidence as there are less feats for madara.


I understand how you got to your conclusion. I merely disagree with the conclusion.


uchihakil said:


> I gave madara sasuke's reaction speed based on what the manga told us that you keep ignoring. What i simply did was use a basic scaling to provide evidence as there are less feats for madara.
> 
> - character A and B have similar abilities (PS, choku tomoe) but character A is stronger than character B in every category bar speed that he doesn't have a feat to go with, character A gets scaled to character B because he is stronger. Another example is BM minato and BM naruto, naruto has feats of tanking first form juubi dama, does minato have the same feat? No he doesn't then he gets scaled to naruto because they are basically one and the same. Thats basically all i did.
> 
> In this case, i'm scaling madara to someone he's not even equal to, i'm scaling him to someone he's superior to. I'm also scaling madara to sasuke based on what the manga says about sharingan precog, it took less than 5 hours for sasuke to go from not being able to react properly to kabuto to reacting to juubito. And this is not even juubito in this matchup, its BSM naruto who is slower than juubito.


We know Madara is stronger than amped Sasuke. We do not know by how much or in what way out side of us never seeing sasuke make a full PS on his own. 
Is he stronger, faster, have more chakra, or stronger chakra, have better reactions, it is only experience? It one or 2 or all of those things? We don't actually know.

While you seem to have taken a blanket assumption of "all of them", I don't necessarily have to. 

I don't know how much their attacks hurt comparatively: Sasuke can cut a branch a dozen times his Senjutsu Susano'o size and Madara can chop mountain tops. Cool. Both have a long and powerful range. That's all I know.

I don't know what speed Madara used to tracking, Hashirama is not a speedster and Tobirama is faster than both, but I know that he for damn sure has never fought some one as fast as Obito and that Naruto can move fast enough to catch Obito flying.

Even when I actually scale and use the instances where The BSM avatar fought other Susano'o:
We have Naruto smashing Ressurected Madara's Susano'o to the ground with one tail.
And we have VotE 3 fight where slashes did not do a damn thing to Naruto.

Combine that with what we know it actually takes to hurt a weaker Naruto and that we know Madara hasn't even shown that much, and I don't have a reason to think he can really damage Naruto 


uchihakil said:


> Yea madara will rough up naruto with his two PS blades considering 1 PS blade could cut 6 mountains with just the shockwave, a direct hit from both swords is gonna be potent enough to atleast damage naruto, a couple of those enough to destroy him.


See above.


uchihakil said:


> You're finding that hard to swallow already because well, you either hate madara that much, or you wank naruto that much. I assumed it was the former at first but then after that post that you liked, it was clear it was the latter.


When the whole world looks like extremist, it might be you. 

Naruto does not have to be my fave for me to argue for him, nor do I have to hate Madara for me to not just hand him feats and not just go off of what I have seen.


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## vasto lordes (Jan 9, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> > 1 Rinnegan madara >>>> juubito since he stomped Naruto and sasuke, + 9 bijuus and tobirama.


he won cuz of hax (limbo/gedo statue)
naruto has 0 defense against limbo/gedo statue


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 9, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> Lmfao so that post made you think??


Attacking the concept of looking at things differently only makes one closed minded sadly.

Also I seriously consider everyone's posts. He used scaling the same way you did. Both came to different paths and conlusions.


uchihakil said:


> An offtopic question though, do you think BM naruto can react to anyone BM minato can react to in the naruto manga?? (minato without FTG though


I don't know.
If you mean in the BM state but not the avatar then probably(?) Because when Jubito showed up KCM Minato, Sasuke, and KCM Naruto were all doing about as well as each other reactions wise. 
Though everyone was just doing their best to stay alive at that point.

If you mean the BM Avatar then
Minato, because he starts off faster any way in base, should be able to keep up with anything Naruto can if they are both in BM but at this point eventually, but Naruto is more experienced with BM than he is (having fought several opponents of varying degrees of size, speed and abilities) and so I think BM Naruto would win in that regard, if that answers your questions.


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## Braiyan (Jan 11, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> uhm i dont remember EMS madara destroying wood golem in the vote fight, all i can remember of the golem was it redirecting the bijuu dama kurama fired and later on taking control of kurama by placing its palm on its forhead, so when did he destroy wood golem again??? so remind me again when iso susano turned the golem into mincemeat. Show me the page or tell me the page.



I thought it was the same page he cut down those 5+ mountain tops right after Hashi caught one of his blades, but I just realised the golem was already destroyed by then. My bad.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 11, 2018)

EMS Mads is still a tier above Naruto at this point

Madara mid diffs.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Mar55 (Jan 11, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> EMS Mads is still a tier above Naruto at this point


No.


Troyse22 said:


> Madara mid diffs.


No.


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## Buuhan (Jan 11, 2018)

People tend to forget that Naruto had help from multiple Edo Kage working in sync to deal blows against juubito. He also posessed Senjutsu which was Juubitos weakness at the time.


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## uchihakil (Jan 12, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Attacking the concept of looking at things differently only makes one closed minded sadly.
> 
> Also I seriously consider everyone's posts. He used scaling the same way you did. Both came to different paths and conlusions.
> 
> ...



The scaling i used was different than the scaling he used, i scaled a character with the same moveset in terms of offence/defence (the offence and defence that does matter in this matchup that is), basically i was scaling the character to a weaker character due to lack of feats. Meanwhile vasto lorde scaled off of a technique that are totally not the same, and we have been shown that even characters like hinata can deflect a juubi's tail, and i sure as hell dont see her tanking any form of juubi dama nor any sensible member in this site. So the scaling is bad, if scaling like that is possible, most characters scale to god tiers for somehow reacting, or tagging god tiers (5 kage etc).


Okay, so you think if the two fought in BM somehow BM naruto will have the edge in reactions and speed more or less yea? If so, then you ought to rewatch the whole naruto cuz you missed the concept of keeping up against faster opponents if you had the same speed, and fights were characters kept up with characters faster than them and gained an upper hand or tagged them, seriously man the character you're in support of is a prime example, him keeping up with juubito who is much faster.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 12, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> EMS Mads is still a tier above Naruto at this point
> 
> Madara mid diffs.


Based on what?


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 12, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> People tend to forget that Naruto had help from multiple Edo Kage working in sync to deal blows against juubito. He also posessed Senjutsu which was Juubitos weakness at the time.


All of those Kage knew they could not win without him and also, why do people say it was Jubito' s weakness like that sticky syrup gun from Gamakichi just blew a hole in him or something. 
Senjutsu just did not get instantly deleted, they still needed to overpower his jutsu and TSB the old fashioned way.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 12, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Based on what?



Everything


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## Mar55 (Jan 12, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Everything


When vague statements that don't match the feats of the two competitors = an actual argument supported by evidence we'll let you know. Until then, Naruto stomps, as Madara cannot even harm BM, let alone the much stronger BSM.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 12, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> The scaling i used was different than the scaling he used, i scaled a character with the same moveset in terms of offence/defence (the offence and defence that does matter in this matchup that is), basically i was scaling the character to a weaker character due to lack of feats.



It would be one thing to scale their damage and say Madara could cut that same branch as easily or something we could compare but instead of that you went for a thing where we know EMS Madara has never had to track that speed.
You'll also notice from my first post I avoided non direct comparisons for that reason. 

Again though 


Hi no Ishi said:


> Even when I actually scale and use the instances where The  avatar fought other Susano'o:
> We have Naruto smashing Ressurected Madara's Susano'o to the ground with one tail.
> And we have VotE 3 fight where slashes did not do a damn thing to Naruto.
> 
> Combine that with what we know it actually takes to hurt a weaker Naruto and that we know Madara hasn't even shown that much, and I don't have a reason to think he can really damage Naruto





uchihakil said:


> Meanwhile vasto lorde scaled off of a technique that are totally not the same


More indirect scaling but no more/less valid.

Naruto was able to break (>) the chakra arms that were able to break (>) the 4 red yang which walled (>) a full Jubi Dama. Direct comparison.

That much makes perfect sense, and though I don't think I personally would try to take that up to the same level as 6 red yang barrier it is true that Naruto and Minato's combined attack did more damage to the TSB than the quad Jubi Dama did to it so his comparison is not without merit there either.


uchihakil said:


> and we have been shown that even characters like hinata can deflect a juubi's tail, and i sure as hell dont see her tanking any form of juubi dama nor any sensible member in this site.


Again amped off of Naruto's chakra, Hinata can block the Jubi tail because she did lol. That has no other meanings attached to it.


uchihakil said:


> So the scaling is bad, if scaling like that is possible, most characters scale to god tiers for somehow reacting, or tagging god tiers (5 kage etc).


That relies also on the " they can't do that thing I just saw them do" philosophy. 
The new Gokage can keep up with the people that they have been shown to keep up with. No more no less. 

If that's stronger than we anticipated that's ok. We just read the manga.


uchihakil said:


> Okay, so you think if the two fought in BM somehow BM naruto will have the edge in reactions and speed more or less yea? If so, then you ought to rewatch the whole naruto cuz you missed the concept of keeping up against faster opponents if you had the same speed, and fights were characters kept up with characters faster than them and gained an upper hand or tagged them, seriously man the character you're in support of is a prime example, him keeping up with juubito w


This is ignoring that Naruto physically caught Jubito in motion.
It's not like he was just learning how to block or dodge a JJ. He caught up to him with his body. 
A thing you need to be moving at a similar speed to do.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 12, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Not a damn thing


Gotcha! I understand now.


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## Bonly (Jan 12, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Until then, Naruto stomps, as Madara cannot even harm BM, let alone the much stronger BSM.



And what does Naruto have to destroy PS again?


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 12, 2018)

Bonly said:


> And what does Naruto have to destroy PS again?





Hi no Ishi said:


> Okay here's why I think Naruto will win.
> 
> 
> Offensive: A much weaker FKS Sage Naruto can knock Kurama over and even hurt the hell out of him with his jutsu, and while Madara's PS is said to rival the tailed beasts in power, there is no reason to believe Madara is much tougher than Kurama physically so the added experience, and powerful chakra of Naruto in BSM should do terrible damage to him.
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Buuhan (Jan 12, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> All of those Kage knew they could not win without him and also, why do people say it was Jubito' s weakness like that sticky syrup gun from Gamakichi just blew a hole in him or something.
> Senjutsu just did not get instantly deleted, they still needed to overpower his jutsu and TSB the old fashioned way.


That’s arguing nothing really. They needed him, but you can’t ignore the fact that without them assisting him it would’be been a lot harder to play on an even level field with juubito. It is his weakness since it is one of the few things capable of actually hurting him if used correctly. That can’t be argued. We also can’t argue that without the help of the edo hokages landing many of these hits would’be been extremely difficult, especially with the assistance of Tobirama and minatos Hirashin. Even the battle with the ten tails would’ve killed the Shinobi alliance if not for the hokages arrival on the battlefield.


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## Azula (Jan 12, 2018)

BM Naruto's Mega TBB *>>> *100% Kyuubi's Normal TBB.

Bijuus don't always put a huge portion of their chakra into attack as BM naruto does so it's irrelevant that PS got hit by 100% kurama's attack. Naruto's attack is several times bigger than the combined mass of 5 bijuus put together. Whereas 100% Kurama's attack is about the size of it's own mouth

Do any of you seriously think 100% Kurama's mouth alone is that much big.



He is big but not* that *big. It's head is smaller than Gamabunta.



This notion that PS while be able to get through a Mega TBB is *seriously* wrong.

And we haven't even taken into account that NE boost will increase it's power even further. 

Secondly, Swords can be _*blocked*_. Hashirama has blocked Madara's sword with a wood construct far smaller than PS. Naruto's tails can function as hands and have the power to hold down 5 Bijuus.





Naruto has 9 tails, Madara has what 2 swords?

He blocks any attack and blasts his face with TBB.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 12, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> That’s arguing nothing really. They needed him, but you can’t ignore the fact that without them assisting him it would’be been a lot harder to play on an even level field with juubito. It is his weakness since it is one of the few things capable of actually hurting him if used correctly. That can’t be argued. We also can’t argue that without the help of the edo hokages landing many of these hits would’be been extremely difficult, especially with the assistance of Tobirama and minatos Hirashin. Even the battle with the ten tails would’ve killed the Shinobi alliance if not for the hokages arrival on the battlefield.


I'm in no way arguing he is the equal of the Jubi Jinchuriki, I'm saying he is a hell of a lot closer than anyone on that battlefield

Reactions: Like 2


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## Buuhan (Jan 12, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I'm in no way arguing he is the equal of the Jubi Jinchuriki, I'm saying he is a hell of a lot closer than anyone on that battlefield


I agree, but a lot of the feats people tend to use connect entirely with his showings against juubito. Often the feats are phrased to make it seem he did it alone when context of each feat matters.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 12, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> I agree, but a lot of the feats people tend to use connect entirely with his showings against juubito. Often the feats are phrased to make it seem he did it alone when context of each feat matters.


Nah lol. I feel you.
 That's like thinking that 8g would have done as well alone or if Madara was serious

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mori Jin (Jan 12, 2018)

Naruto was contending with a Juubi Jinchuuriki using BSM (he had help, but majority of them had his cloak to help anyway). Juubito is stronger than Hashirama, as stated by the 1st Hokage. Hashirama is stronger than EMS Madara. Don't know how anyone thinks Madara wins anything in this fight.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Buuhan (Jan 12, 2018)

The edk


Mori Jin said:


> Naruto was contending with a Juubi Jinchuuriki using BSM (he had help, but majority of them had his cloak to help anyway). Juubito is as stronger than Hashirama, as stated by the 1st Hokage. Hashirama is stronger than EMS Madara. Don't know how anyone thinks Madara wins anything in this fight.


 the edo Kages didn’t have the cloak .... minato himself had his own half of Kurama Chakra. The cloaks served to protect the Shinobi alliance. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with your choice. Just putting your evidence into context. Sasuke and Naruto were not on the same level of power as juubito.


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## Mar55 (Jan 12, 2018)

Bonly said:


> And what does Naruto have to destroy PS again?



Seems like they covered it for me. Gotta love that companionship.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Mori Jin (Jan 12, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> The edk
> 
> the edo Kages didn’t have the cloak .... minato himself had his own half of Kurama Chakra. The cloaks served to protect the Shinobi alliance. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with your choice. Just putting your evidence into context. Sasuke and Naruto were not on the same level of power as juubito.



It why I said majority of the people, and not all of the people who helped had a bijuu cloak. Didn't say they were in the same power level. They weren't on the same power level as Kaguya, they still beat her though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Jan 12, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Seems like they covered it for me. Gotta love that companionship.



So nothing then

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Buuhan (Jan 12, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> It why I said majority of the people, and not all of the people who helped had a bijuu cloak. Didn't say they were in the same power level. They weren't on the same power level as Kaguya, they still beat her though.


Exactly, so when using a feat for Naruto the circumstances of such a feat have to be taken into account. It can't be just naruto did this. It should be naruto did x because of y and z. That helps give more perspective on matchups.


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## Mori Jin (Jan 12, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> *Naruto was contending with a Juubi Jinchuuriki using BSM (he had help,* but majority of them had his cloak to help anyway). Juubito is stronger than Hashirama, as stated by the 1st Hokage. Hashirama is stronger than EMS Madara. Don't know how anyone thinks Madara wins anything in this fight.





Buuhan said:


> Exactly, so when using a feat for Naruto the circumstances of such a feat have to be taken into account. It can't be just naruto did this. It should be naruto did x because of y and z. That helps give more perspective on matchups.



He did contend with Juubito, I did also say that he had help (@bold). Didn't say he faught him all by himself.


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## Buuhan (Jan 12, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> He did contend with Juubito, I did also say that he had help (@bold). Didn't say he faught him all by himself.


you disregarded the fact that those with the cloak had it on for their own protection, and the help that made a major difference against juubito was that of the Edo hokages whom did not posses the cloak themselves. Big difference


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## Mar55 (Jan 12, 2018)

Bonly said:


> So nothing then


What, you're asking for my personal opinion?


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## Bonly (Jan 12, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> What, you're asking for my personal opinion?



I’m just asking what jutsu do you think is suppose to destroy PS.


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## Mar55 (Jan 12, 2018)

Bonly said:


> I’m just asking what jutsu do you think is suppose to destroy PS.


Oh, TBB should get it done. BSM Rasenshuriken should make it happen too, considering even SM Rasenshuriken stunned Kurama. A Ultra Big Ball Barrage could also do significant damage, assuming he could pull that off.

He's also pretty much in PS's strength tier as of BM, this adds SM to the mix. SM itself allows for strength to toss boss summons and flip Bijū. Combined, there's no doubt he could outmuscle PS, if it came down to it.

Essentially, Naruto has most basic advantages and the tools to win, so I figured he does.


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## Mori Jin (Jan 12, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> you disregarded the fact that those with the cloak had it on for their own protection, and the help that made a major difference against juubito was that of the Edo hokages whom did not posses the cloak themselves. Big difference



Did not disregard anything. Konoha 11 had the cloak on when Naruto and Sasuke defeated Juubito. That was the help I was talking about not the fodders, or the Edo Hokages.


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## Buuhan (Jan 12, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> Did not disregard anything. Konoha 11 had the cloak on when Naruto and Sasuke defeated Juubito. That was the help I was talking about not the fodders, or the Edo Hokages.


they were also encapsulated within Kuramas tails. Its a huge buff regardless. This was also Juubito with a weakened will towards the end of the battle as opposed to the one who was rag dolling everything thrown against him prior. Your statement pointed to Naruto doing well mostly without help or with his own power supplementing that help through 9 tail cloaks. lets just agree to disagree at this point.


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## Mori Jin (Jan 12, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> they were also encapsulated within Kuramas tails. Its a huge buff regardless. This was also Juubito with a weakened will towards the end of the battle as opposed to the one who was rag dolling everything thrown against him prior. Your statement pointed to Naruto doing well mostly without help or with his own power supplementing that help through 9 tail cloaks. lets just agree to disagree at this point.



My statement pointed to Naruto (and co) doing well against Juubito. Obito might have been "rag dolling" them as you say, but it amounted to nothing as he couldn't beat them. His lost his will due to Naruto, showing him the error of his ways, that's a plus to him. Never said Naruto did mostly without help. I said he did well against a Juubi Jinchuuriki along with others (who he gave a chakra cloak to (konoha 11)). He did also give them the Rasenagn, that broke his TSB wall (or something), that's another one for Naruto. Majority of the things that lead to Juubito losing in the end, was in fact due to Naruto. But whatever agree to disagree.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Bonly (Jan 12, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Oh, TBB should get it done.



Madara’s PS took a Bijuudama from a stronger Kurama and it was unscratched. It took the combine power of the AoE of around 11 Bijuudama from Kurama and SS in order to destroy PS. That’s more power then Naruto can do alone so I doubt Bijuudama is gonna get the job done.



> BSM Rasenshuriken should make it happen too, considering even SM Rasenshuriken stunned Kurama.



Kurama doesn’t have doesn't have the same durability PS so I don’t see how that means PS is gonna be destroyed.



> He's also pretty much in PS's strength tier as of BM, this adds SM to the mix. SM itself allows for strength to toss boss summons and flip Bijū. Combined, there's no doubt he could outmuscle PS, if it came down to it.



Naruto has the benefit of Sage Mode against Sasuke yet he couldn’t overpower his PS so I have my doubts that he’ll do it to Madara’s let alone enough to destroy it.


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## Mar55 (Jan 13, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Madara’s PS took a Bijuudama from a stronger Kurama and it was unscratched.


An overall stronger Kurama doesn't translate to that being a stronger attack. Naruto's casual TBB could outmatch a super charged TBB from 5 Bijū. It kinda plays into the Jin and Bijū > lone Bijū > controlled Bijū.


Bonly said:


> It took the combine power of the AoE of around 11 Bijuudama from Kurama and SS in order to destroy PS. That’s more power then Naruto can do alone so I doubt Bijuudama is gonna get the job done.


But it didn't? We see those TBB fly into the arms of SS and destroy some of them. We then see the remaining arms completely destroy PS, despite not being its full power.


Bonly said:


> Kurama doesn’t have doesn't have the same durability PS so I don’t see how that means PS is gonna be destroyed.


You're right, it has better. BM Naruto took a Jūbi TBLaser with mostly cosmetic damage. That same TBLaser plowed through 9 TBB from Kurama and Gyūki, without losing any momentum. That's better durability than Madara can breach, along being better than his defences.

This is BSM, who's definitively that+. Meaning it's even less likely Madara can breach his defences, and it's more likely his attacks will breach Madara's.


Bonly said:


> Naruto has the benefit of Sage Mode against Sasuke yet he couldn’t overpower his PS so I have my doubts that he’ll do it to Madara’s let alone enough to destroy it.


Or we could include context, like Naruto intentionally holding back. That fight also proves PS swords are worthless against Naruto, considering he casually blocked both.

Considering it's not a near even match like it was there, Naruto would block the swords, hold PS in place with his tails/chakra arms and blow it away. He can afford to chip away, sense he has more stamina and natural energy as a quick refill.


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## uchihakil (Jan 13, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> Naruto was contending with a Juubi Jinchuuriki using BSM (he had help, but majority of them had his cloak to help anyway). Juubito is stronger than Hashirama, as stated by the 1st Hokage. Hashirama is stronger than EMS Madara. Don't know how anyone thinks Madara wins anything in this fight.




Again failed logic, 1 rinnegan madara soloed naruto and sasuke + 9 bijuu's, that doesn't make him stronger than juubito, hashirama is going to wtfstomp BSM naruto like he will EMS madara, and based on your logic, EMS sasuke will beat EMS madara cuz he fought juubito who was stronger than hashi who will beat madara. Why can't yall think it through, your logic is flawed, you can't just be spewing nonsense a > b > c logic when it suits the character you like. 

SM hashi is going to mop the floor with ;

- EMS madara
- BSM naruto
- EMS sasuke

So again, saying BSM naruto is stronger cuz he fought someone who was stronger than hashi is horseshit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 13, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> An overall stronger Kurama doesn't translate to that being a stronger attack. Naruto's casual TBB could outmatch a super charged TBB from 5 Bijū. It kinda plays into the Jin and Bijū > lone Bijū > controlled Bijū.
> 
> But it didn't? We see those TBB fly into the arms of SS and destroy some of them. We then see the remaining arms completely destroy PS, despite not being its full power.
> 
> ...




No it doesn't, naruto can only affect/increase the potency of bijuu dama by adding senjutsu, the bijuu dama that stalemated the 5 bijuu's tbb was kurama's lonesome power. 

Might i add, madara took kurama's bijuudama with just v4 not stabilised PS which shits on v4. 

Again, madara survived 11 tbb's with PS blade + choujou kebesu, naruto have not shown fire power on that level.


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## Azula (Jan 13, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> Might i add, madara took kurama's bijuudama with just v4 not stabilised PS which shits on v4.



That bijuudama was *a lot* smaller than one Naruto fired.



uchihakil said:


> Again, madara survived 11 tbb's



No he didn't.

Stop with this absolutely ridiculous claim that someone "survives" bijuudama just because they were in the general vicinity.

*The bombs hit SS, the bombs damaged SS* not PS who was at the other side firing them.

Otherwise I should started claiming that Hachibi can "survive" BM Naruto and the Five Bijuus combined attack because he was present when both the attacks exploded



There is a huge difference between getting direct hit by bijuudama and being in the general area.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Jan 13, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> An overall stronger Kurama doesn't translate to that being a stronger attack. Naruto's casual TBB could outmatch a super charged TBB from 5 Bijū. It kinda plays into the Jin and Bijū > lone Bijū > controlled Bijū.



And what proof do you have that 100 percent Kurama's Bijuudama couldn't outmatch 5 Bijuu's Bijuudama with a casual Bijuudama again? None, that's just something people make up to try and make a difference between the two but there's nothing to back up such a claim. 100 percent Kurama has twice the strength of half and Kurama wasn't alone, Madara was controlling him.



> But it didn't? We see those TBB fly into the arms of SS and destroy some of them. We then see the remaining arms completely destroy PS, despite not being its full power.



But it did. Are we gonna act like Bijuudama's no longer have huge AoE that's the size of a mountain? If we don't ignore that then you'll realize that PS would still be in the AoE of the explosions afterwords, it won't take the full damage of the explosions but it'll still that damage from the explosion nonetheless and that's around 11 of them going off at the same time.



> You're right, it has better. BM Naruto took a Jūbi TBLaser with mostly cosmetic damage. That same TBLaser plowed through 9 TBB from Kurama and Gyūki, without losing any momentum. That's better durability than Madara can breach, along being better than his defences.
> 
> This is BSM, who's definitively that+. Meaning it's even less likely Madara can breach his defences, and it's more likely his attacks will breach Madara's.



No, you're talking about a chakra avatar. Kurama himself as in the one made of flesh and bones doesn't have the same durability. If you stab Susanoo or throw acid on Susanoo, is Itachi gonna get hurt? No. Why? Because Susanoo is just chakra. Same with Kurama, there's a reason why Kurama went from being hurt by Naruto's attacks when they fought before the war to taking hits from the Juubi with cosmetic damage and the reason is because one Kurama is just a pure chakra and the other isn't.

So again Kurama himself, the actual Kurama and not the chakra avy isn't the same as PS nor has his durability been shown to be better.



> Or we could include context, like Naruto intentionally holding back. That fight also proves PS swords are worthless against Naruto, considering he casually blocked both.
> 
> Considering it's not a near even match like it was there, Naruto would block the swords, hold PS in place with his tails/chakra arms and blow it away. He can afford to chip away, sense he has more stamina and natural energy as a quick refill



Naruto not wanting to kill Sasuke doesn't mean he was holding back. Naruto didn't want to kill Sasuke in part one yet you're not gonna say he was holding back, hell we saw Naruto try his best. So that's not a good excuse, if Naruto could've easily overpowered Sasuke's Susanoo then he would've done it if he could've and called it a day and put an end to the fight when Sasuke said he was gonna murder the Gokage and what not.


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## Mar55 (Jan 13, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> Again, madara survived 11 tbb's with PS blade + choujou kebesu, naruto have not shown fire power on that level.


Yeah, this still never happened tho.


Bonly said:


> And what proof do you have that 100 percent Kurama's Bijuudama couldn't outmatch 5 Bijuu's Bijuudama with a casual Bijuudama again? None, that's just something people make up to try and make a difference between the two but there's nothing to back up such a claim. 100 percent Kurama has twice the strength of half and Kurama wasn't alone, Madara was controlling him.


I didn't say he was alone, I noted he was being controlled. Even then, his TBB was a casual one that was far below what Naruto does with a casual TBB, by pure showings. So, that's the proof.


Bonly said:


> But it did. Are we gonna act like Bijuudama's no longer have huge AoE that's the size of a mountain? If we don't ignore that then you'll realize that PS would still be in the AoE of the explosions afterwords, it won't take the full damage of the explosions but it'll still that damage from the explosion nonetheless and that's around 11 of them going off at the same time.


Except we're shown it taking damage only from the lessened SS and it was completely shattered. There wasn't even an explosion, it explosions since 11 TBB were fired, afterwards. Hey we're supposed to believe PS can handle SS + 11 TBB + PS swords? I don't think so.


Bonly said:


> No, you're talking about a chakra avatar. Kurama himself as in the one made of flesh and bones doesn't have the same durability. If you stab Susanoo or throw acid on Susanoo, is Itachi gonna get hurt? No. Why? Because Susanoo is just chakra. Same with Kurama, there's a reason why Kurama went from being hurt by Naruto's attacks when they fought before the war to taking hits from the Juubi with cosmetic damage and the reason is because one Kurama is just a pure chakra and the other isn't.


Even assuming he was flesh there, he would've been fine. Losing tails isn't shown to be much of an issue for Bijū, especially not considering their regen. Regardless, it doesn't matter here. Naruto has shown better durability, so he has better durability. Kurama on his own is irrelevant to BM Naruto and BSM Naruto.


Bonly said:


> So again Kurama himself, the actual Kurama and not the chakra avy isn't the same as PS nor has his durability been shown to be better.


This is contradictory to your argument of Kurama > BM Naruto, since that'd mean he also receives the durability feats BM Naruto gained. Which of he does, he does have better durability and it's not even close.

Having said that, not really sure why you think it matters. Naruto has shown better durability, then he just adds to that with SM. He's > PS in literally everything. Mobility, defence, offence, methods of attacks, everything.


Bonly said:


> Naruto not wanting to kill Sasuke doesn't mean he was holding back.


Gonna stop you here, because it's specifically noted more than once that he is holding back. Sasuke even says he'll die playing defensive like he's been doing.

Either way, it's not really gonna matter for here, since Madara =/= Sasuke, and Naruto > them both. He still can't be harmed by PS, he still can harm PS, he can out muscle him, out maneuver him, out last him and just holds most advantages. That's just with BM.

I honestly don't see it as that debatable, but meh. You've received the opinion you asked for. I'll be leaving it alone now.


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## Mori Jin (Jan 13, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> Again failed logic, 1 rinnegan madara soloed naruto and sasuke + 9 bijuu's, that doesn't make him stronger than juubito, hashirama is going to wtfstomp BSM naruto like he will EMS madara, and based on your logic, EMS sasuke will beat EMS madara cuz he fought juubito who was stronger than hashi who will beat madara. Why can't yall think it through, your logic is flawed, you can't just be spewing nonsense a > b > c logic when it suits the character you like.
> 
> SM hashi is going to mop the floor with ;
> 
> ...



Cool story mate.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 13, 2018)

With time limit of KCM -> Madara with high to ext. diff.
w/o time limiet KCM -> Naruto with high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 14, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> That bijuudama was *a lot* smaller than one Naruto fired.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




@Bonly already said what i was going to say, lemme just add a few points, for starters the scan you just posted was with naruto trying to redirect the bijuu dama shot by the bijuu's, which exploded in the upper atmosphere, so yes ofcourse they didn't suffer the full brunt of the explosion, unlike madara who shot his BD at close quater, cuz he was less than a 50 yards out from SS, so he definately was definately hit with the explosion.


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## Bonly (Jan 14, 2018)

Mar55 said:


> Yeah, this still never happened tho.
> 
> I didn't say he was alone, I noted he was being controlled. Even then, his TBB was a casual one that was far below what Naruto does with a casual TBB, by pure showings. So, that's the proof.



That's not proof. That's like me saying that Madara or Tsunade can't walk on water because they haven't been shown to do it. This is a case you and everyone else who tries to use this logic have exactly no ground to stand on to suggest full Kurama's Bijuudama can't do the exact same. Concession accepted.



> Except we're shown it taking damage only from the lessened SS and it was completely shattered. There wasn't even an explosion, it explosions since 11 TBB were fired, afterwards. Hey we're supposed to believe PS can handle SS + 11 TBB + PS swords? I don't think so.



We clearly see the huge ass explosion that takes up an entire panel damn near and that explosion happened right infront of Madara and Hashi.



> Even assuming he was flesh there, he would've been fine. Losing tails isn't shown to be much of an issue for Bijū, especially not considering their regen. Regardless, it doesn't matter here. Naruto has shown better durability, so he has better durability. Kurama on his own is irrelevant to BM Naruto and BSM Naruto.



It is completely relevant as you're ignoring common sense and falsely apply feats. It does matter as he wouldn't take the damage the same. You're comparing apples and Oranges and treating them the same which is wrong.



> This is contradictory to your argument of Kurama > BM Naruto, since that'd mean he also receives the durability feats BM Naruto gained. Which of he does, he does have better durability and it's not even close.



Nothing is being contradicted, Kurama being stronger doesn't mean he has better durabitrily then a avatar made out of pure chakra. Just use your brain and answer the following questions. If you was to stab pure chakra, is the chakra hurt? Now if you was to stab something made out of flesh and blood, like how Gyuki was stabbed by the five tails, would he be hurt and bleed? If the answer to the latter is yes but the answer to the former is no then that's means you have to stop being biased and accepted that they won't have the same durability.



> Having said that, not really sure why you think it matters. Naruto has shown better durability, then he just adds to that with SM. He's > PS in literally everything. Mobility, defence, offence, methods of attacks, everything.



It matters when you make up stuff to suggest Naruto wins. You said that because Kurama was stunned by FRS, that means FRS will destroy PS. So why the hell would Kurama's durability not matter in a discussion about destroying PS when you're using that as an example?



> Gonna stop you here, because it's specifically noted more than once that he is holding back. Sasuke even says he'll die playing defensive like he's been doing.



Not going for the kill doesn't mean he was pulling back his punches, that's just your head canon since the manga has shown multiple fights of people not going for the kill yet not holding back.



> I honestly don't see it as that debatable, but meh. You've received the opinion you asked for. I'll be leaving it alone now.



Thanks for your opinion, I'm just glad to know that most of it is baseless assumptions and falsely giving feats to make up the claim that 
"Naruto stomps" lol


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## Azula (Jan 14, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> @Bonly already said what i was going to say, lemme just add a few points, for starters the scan you just posted was with naruto trying to redirect the bijuu dama shot by the bijuu's, which exploded in the upper atmosphere, so yes ofcourse they didn't suffer the full brunt of the explosion, unlike madara who shot his BD at close quater, cuz he was less than a 50 yards out from SS, so he definately was definately hit with the explosion.



What are we suddenly going to pretend that SS isn't bigger than mountains and can comfortably accommodate mountain range attacks within itself? 



"50 yards" lol.

All the jutsus and Bijuu involved in this battle are of gigantic proportions. Don't downplay size when convenient.

And you need to remember than bijuudama do not ever backfire unless *deflected* back through some means.

Killer Bee can comfortably obliterate Suigetsu standing opposite to him and* not *get hit by his own attack despite it exploding at "close range to him".





Madara aimed the bijuudamas high up at SS arms who towers above him. Naruto and Obito's attacks went high up in the air. The same concept applies.

Neither PS nor Bee were hit by the respective attacks

Just because they seemed to have been enveloped by the "blast" doesn't mean they can now survive being hit directly.

Be consistent.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## uchihakil (Jan 16, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> What are we suddenly going to pretend that SS isn't bigger than mountains and can comfortably accommodate mountain range attacks within itself?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Beam bijuu dama has shown to function in a different way, they all vapourise the target infront of them and move in a linear pattern, not explode like a regular bijuu dama,a bijuu dama has a blast radius regardless of who fires it, you know this but still want to come up with something irrelevant. And SS is definately not big enough to contain 11 bijuu dama from full kurama's explosion, thats BS. considering the fact that 1 bijuu dama is already multimountain level.


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