# Maito Gai vs. Captain America



## Kuya (Oct 19, 2006)

Who wins if they fight?

Current Maito Gai from the Manga vs. Current Captain America (from Civil War event)


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## Giovanni Rild (Oct 19, 2006)

Kuya said:


> Who wins if they fight?
> 
> Current Maito Gai from the Manga vs. Current Captain America (from Civil War event)



Done with Rock Lee before. Rock Lee won.


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## Kuya (Oct 19, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:


> Done with Rock Lee before. Rock Lee won.



Oh seriously? I've only seen Lee vs. Robin or Lee vs. Bruce Lee.


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## earthshine (Oct 19, 2006)

this is sad.


Gai can take his head off before he can blink. Cap is only peak human, Gai is Superhumanly fast(extremly so), strong, and has Gates. he could let cap punch him in the face as hard as he could, then just shrug it off and smash cap's head in.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2006)

Are you people joking?

Cap has taken on much, much tougher opponents and beaten them.

Cap owns him easily.


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## Havoc (Oct 19, 2006)

earthshine said:


> this is sad.
> 
> 
> Gai can take his head off before he can blink. Cap is only peak human, Gai is Superhumanly fast(extremly so), strong, and has Gates. he could let cap punch him in the face as hard as he could, then just shrug it off and smash cap's head in.



Cap is a lot more than peak human.  And like EM said he has taken on and beaten stronger/better fighters.  I don't know who would win, but it's not completely one sided.


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## Shunsuii (Oct 19, 2006)

Nah, Gai takes this no question

@Havoc, who's that girl in ur sig, ive seen like 3 other ppl with that girl in there sig...


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## Hagen (Oct 19, 2006)

Nothing below cosmic level can beat the Cap.
He has taken down a lot of guys tougher than Gai

Gai will crash against Cap's indestructable shield over and over.
eventually, Gai will tire (Cap NEVER tires) and Cap will beat him.


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## The Space Cowboy (Oct 19, 2006)

> Illuminati Gate Quote:
> Originally Posted by Kuya
> Who wins if they fight?
> 
> ...



Having made a silly mistake in the past does not bind one to make it in the now.

The Star-Spangled Cap'n, makes it happen.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 19, 2006)

Personally i think Gai would win.
Imho he has a speed advantage and Agility.

Gai really hasn't been pushed to his limits yet in naruto, against Kisami he only went to gate 6 and owned him, at 8 gates, he should be a match or go over captains abilitys.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Personally i think Gai would win.
> Imho he has a speed advantage and Agility.
> 
> Gai really hasn't been pushed to his limits yet in naruto, against Kisami he only went to gate 6 and owned him, at 8 gates, he should be a match or go over captains abilitys.



But then he kills himself....


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## Rice Ball (Oct 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> But then he kills himself....



'Might' die > certain death if he didn't go all out againt Captain America


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2006)

Mike, could you post scans of Capt fighting someone with Gai's skill and speed in close combat?


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## Rashman (Oct 19, 2006)

gai might win...but captain america aint bad neither...a draw perhaps>_>


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2006)

Does the Hulk count?


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## el MoFo (Oct 19, 2006)

gai is so fast you can't see him move. The damage he does mainly comes from the momentum he creates. cap'n A has a shield, and the simple fact is, how much punishment can he take.



> Powers and abilities of Captain America
> 
> Rogers in the regular Marvel Universe has no superhuman powers, although as a result of the Super-Soldier serum, he is transformed from a frail young man into a "perfect" specimen of human development and conditioning. Captain America is as intelligent, strong, fast, agile, and durable as it is possible for a human being to be without being considered superhuman. The formula enhances all of his metabolic functions and prevents the build-up of fatigue poisons in his muscles, giving him endurance far in excess of an ordinary human being. This accounts for many of his extraordinary feats, including running a mile in a little more than a minute.[36] Furthermore, his enhancements are the reason why he was able to survive being frozen in suspended animation for decades. Rogers is also unable to become intoxicated by alcohol and is immune to many diseases.
> 
> ...



got this from wikipedia. This simply says that Captain A isn't slow to begin with, and the main feature he has. He doesn't tire out. Also on account of intelligence, tactical abileties He is way ahead of gai.

BUT

What do we really know about gai and his abileties. We have seen him use one jutsu so far. But everything he does is based on speed. Combined with jutsu i think gai will win in the end. But not using Tai Jutsu. The attack paterns of gai and lee aswell are just to predicable for Captain A. But the speed combined with jutsu, will kick his arse


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2006)

And since when was Hulk achieved Gai's speed in combat?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2006)

Well the Hulk can catch artillery shells which move faster than sound....

Anyway, if you want to see speed, look at this:









 (Iron Spidey)


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## Di@BoLik (Oct 19, 2006)

Gai can summon tortoises. Gai wins.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2006)

First off

Some of those are jobbed. In all honesty he shouldn't be able to sneak up on Spidey, considering that Spidey takes on far faster people who puts Gai or Capt to shame. Heck his punches should barely hurt him considering that Spidey has taken punches from Hulk and still move around

Another thing, they show that he was dodging a projectile. He wasn't engaged in close combat against someone, that's different

Third, they don't show that he's faster than Gai, if anything they show he's probably on par (and don't bring up Guns > ninjas because that's rubbish)


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## el MoFo (Oct 19, 2006)

Mike has a point there, and the thing on which captain A wins is simple then. He can run a mile in under a minute, meaning he aint slow. The main way gai can win is if he uses an unknown jutsu to us. Something that does AoE stuff...

Can't Dodge Explosions now can you.

Based on what we have seen so far, and what mike just showed us. Captain A wil beat Gai, and he will win, mainly by the use of his head. 

So Captain A will beat Maito Gai

Mike you rule!


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## el MoFo (Oct 19, 2006)

Forte, Read my posts where i posted Captain A's power stats.

He is one of the best martial arts user in the Marvel universe. Actually concidered the best. He's super human, can hurt the hulk, and is smart enough to take on smarter enemies. I think you are underestimating Captain A


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2006)

el MoFo said:


> Forte, Read my posts where i posted Captain A's power stats.
> 
> He is one of the best martial arts user in the Marvel universe. Actually concidered the best. He's super human, can hurt the hulk, and is smart enough to take on smarter enemies. I think you are underestimating Captain A



el Mofo, don't double post. Edit your last one

Capt is no where near the best. Wolverine could easily take him even without claws

The best hand to hand fighter is Champion


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## el MoFo (Oct 19, 2006)

Spiderman can't beat him in hand to hand combat, Captain A fairs well versus the hulk. He is of all hero's most likely the most trained in combat... 

and champion is not the best hand to hand fighter... his body is in the perfect shape of a fighting machine. Never stated he is the best hand-to-hand combatant


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## Nice Gai (Oct 19, 2006)

Are you talking about this Gai?


Gai wins with:


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2006)

Except before he can do that, Cap throws his shield and it slices off Gai's head.


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## Nice Gai (Oct 19, 2006)

Umm yeah Lee opened up 1 gate on Sasuke to perform Lotus and that only took like a second. Gai is def more skilled than Lee. Where are they fighting to make things easier for me.? I am going to stick with the Narutards on this one until I get a battlefield. If its like the Chunnin Exam Arena Capt Looses. I love Capt to death. Prob one of my fav Marvels. My first choice in MvC 1 and 2. Gai could just pull off Lotus to win if the opening of gates take too long like you say. One drop to the ground and its over.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2006)

Cap threw his shield so fast that it intercepted and destroyed a missile.


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## Nice Gai (Oct 19, 2006)

I am not doubting Capts ablities but Gai has punched people through concrete and showed impressive speed. Still the theory of does Gai wear weights or not. With no gates its more of a fair match.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2006)

this

 (Golden age, but still canon)



 (Quicksilver > Gai)


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## Nice Gai (Oct 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Link removed
> 
> (Golden age, but still canon)
> 
> ...



great points I know Quicksliver would run Laps aorund Gai. Oh yeah the missle  part- Lee caught Gaaras top to his Guard just like that. I wish the series would have been out as long as Capt has been to see more features of Gai. Capt has a lot evidence he can beat Gai. He has fought like almost every type of enemy. The only hard part about debating with Gai is we hardly no shit about him. Capt has been around since decades ago. Thats where I am just asking where they are fighitng at. Gai has speed and taijustu. If they are fighitng in a arena like I said then I can give it to Gai. Anything outside Gai will probably need 7 gates to show him whats up and give him a good fight. 8 gates could probably due but die in the process. So if you kill your opponent then walk away then die is it still a win?


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## The Wanderer (Oct 19, 2006)

The thing is that most people who voted for Gai are Naruto fans who know jack about Captain America. EM's post alone should be more than enough to end this battle

The speed issue has been covered already, that won't give Gai an advantage. And the moment Gai decides to activate the 3-5 gates he's toast. That power-up takes 3-5 seconds a least, where Gai is screaming like he wants to take a shit. That time is more than enough time  for Cap to decapitate the ninja with his shield.


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## Havoc (Oct 19, 2006)

el MoFo said:


> Spiderman can't beat him in hand to hand combat, Captain A fairs well versus the hulk. He is of all hero's most likely the most trained in combat...
> 
> and champion is not the best hand to hand fighter... his body is in the perfect shape of a fighting machine. Never stated he is the best hand-to-hand combatant



What do you consider hand to hand?  Because in most cases Spiderman>Cap


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## Giovanni Rild (Oct 19, 2006)

Havoc said:


> What do you consider hand to hand?  Because in most cases Spiderman>Cap



I consider fist in skull hand to hand


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## Gunshin (Oct 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Well the Hulk can catch artillery shells which move faster than sound....
> 
> Anyway, if you want to see speed, look at this:
> 
> ...



Its so damn easy to support comic characters whenever they fight against manga characters. There is no rules for them. All you have to do is find one scan where a writer has him doing some amazing feat outside of his character. It doesn't matter if it contradicts his usual showings. It doesn't matter if the opponent can show a scan of him getting hit by someone much slower than Quick Silver. Just find some PIS or CIS, call it a wrap. It really makes me want to argue against comics lately since its so fucking cheap.

That scan of Quick Jobber shows him grabbing caps shoulder after being upset about whatever happen to Wanda. Looks to me that Cap sucker punched him. If Quick Silver's intent was to hurt the Cap he would have hit him in the back of the head instead of grabbing his shoulder. Furthermore, it doesn't even look like Quick Silver was going as fast as he could. If Quick Silver was at full speed, nobody would be able to hear what Quick Silver said.

And has Cap ever decapitated a person with his Shield? I've seen him hit people in the head with it a million times hurting them or KO'ing them. I really doubt he's done that before, and even if he has, its not in his character to do it to good guys or people like Gai's silly characters.


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## jplaya2023 (Oct 19, 2006)

gai wins with ease, he's faster, more agile, better h2h fighter, smarter, keen, cunning, a battle genuis and captain america will never lay a hand or shield on him. Gai can move nearly at the speed of light and uses gates and peacock for instant KO


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## Havoc (Oct 19, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> Its so damn easy to support comic characters whenever they fight against manga characters. There is no rules for them. All you have to do is find one scan where a writer has him doing some amazing feat outside of his character. It doesn't matter if it contradicts his usual showings. It doesn't matter if the opponent can show a scan of him getting hit by someone much slower than Quick Silver. Just find some PIS or CIS, call it a wrap. It really makes me want to argue against comics lately since its so fucking cheap.



Caps usually showing are normally always way beyond what a peak human can do.  These amazing feats you're talking about aren't out of character for Cap.


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## Nice Gai (Oct 19, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> gai wins with ease, he's faster, more agile, better h2h fighter, smarter, keen, cunning, a battle genuis and captain america will never lay a hand or shield on him. Gai can move nearly at the speed of light and uses gates and peacock for instant KO



I have to agree with you fully on this jplaya finally but the speed of light thing I cant.


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## Havoc (Oct 19, 2006)

Nice Gai said:


> I have to agree with you fully on this jplaya finally but the speed of light thing I cant.



How can you agree when Cap matches or surpasses Gai in all those things except speed.

And it's not like Gai is gonna start the fight with any gates open.


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## ZergKage (Oct 19, 2006)

This is just silly, this is what happens when someone uses a respect thread the wrong way. Pathetic.



			
				Gunshin said:
			
		

> Its so damn easy to support comic characters whenever they fight against manga characters. There is no rules for them. All you have to do is find one scan where a writer has him doing some amazing feat outside of his character. It doesn't matter if it contradicts his usual showings. It doesn't matter if the opponent can show a scan of him getting hit by someone much slower than Quick Silver. Just find some PIS or CIS, call it a wrap. It really makes me want to argue against comics lately since its so fucking cheap.
> 
> That scan of Quick Jobber shows him grabbing caps shoulder after being upset about whatever happen to Wanda. Looks to me that Cap sucker punched him. If Quick Silver's intent was to hurt the Cap he would have hit him in the back of the head instead of grabbing his shoulder. Furthermore, it doesn't even look like Quick Silver was going as fast as he could. If Quick Silver was at full speed, nobody would be able to hear what Quick Silver said.
> 
> And has Cap ever decapitated a person with his Shield? I've seen him hit people in the head with it a million times hurting them or KO'ing them. I really doubt he's done that before, and even if he has, its not in his character to do it to good guys or people like Gai's silly characters.



^^ 100% right


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## Nice Gai (Oct 19, 2006)

I just dont agree with Capt being able to fight Gai head on. Somethings can be rivaled. Cap will probably give Gai some go but I dont think his best move would be to fight Gai head on.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2006)

el MoFo said:


> Spiderman can't beat him in hand to hand combat, Captain A fairs well versus the hulk. He is of all hero's most likely the most trained in combat...
> 
> and champion is not the best hand to hand fighter... his body is in the perfect shape of a fighting machine. Never stated he is the best hand-to-hand combatant



Oh god you're dumb. Spidey is physically *strictly* superior to Captain America in *every possible way*. He's faster, stronger and more agile. There is *no way* that a normal Captain America should even hit Spidey

He also never fought Hulk evenly, he was usinh his agility to constantly evade Hulk and going for pressure points

Wolverine has also beaten Capt before in a fight, so much for him being the best

Also has Capt's shield decapitated anyone other than himself?


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## Havoc (Oct 19, 2006)

Forte.EXE said:


> Oh god you're dumb. Spidey is physically *strictly* to Captain America in *every possible way*. He's faster, stronger and more agile. There is *no way* that a normal Captain America should even hit Spidey
> 
> He also never fought Hulk evenly, he was usinh his agility to constantly evade Hulk and going for pressure points
> 
> ...



Ultimate Caps shield did.


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## ZergKage (Oct 19, 2006)

> He also never fought Hulk evenly, he was usinh his agility to constantly evade Hulk and going for pressure points



This is clearly true and this is what i mean by trusting just one scan that someone shows you. The Hulk in that fight was Professor and so you cant compare him to say....Savage or Mindless Hulk. 1.) he didnt want to kill Cap(like the majority of heroes Cap fights) and 2.) Cap sneak attacked him by tossing him out of the house then bouncing on the shield off of his face. Does that mean hes as fast as the Hulk?? No. When the Hulk wanted he easily caught Cap and wrapped him around a lightpost then proceeded to beat on Doc Samson. It wasnt a one on one fight and he only lasted because of different reasons.....but when you just look at the scan and someone says,"Look he fought the Hulk, the Hulk is fast." It doesnt mean much. 

Thats why its so tough to pit Manga vs Comics because comics have XX plus years of feats from different viewpoints(writers) while Manga's just have one, the correct one. Just like Gunshin said all you have to do is find one instance of _Insert Comic character here_ that shows him doing something silly and your gold. That is why i hate respect threads. Because they never show you the other side of the coin. The times he got tagged by something slow. The times he wasnt that strong. To say on average that Cap is => Gai in speed is just blantantly silly and biased and you should be ashamed of yourself.


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## Jin22 (Oct 19, 2006)

I don't think I've ever been able to support Cap in the OBD yet. And yet again, I  personally believe Gai would give Mr. Rogers the beat down of his life.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2006)

Whine, whine, whine.

It's canon, get over it.

I'm not seeing any way that Gai can compete here.


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## Jin22 (Oct 19, 2006)

I'll repeat once again: Gai would put the beat down on Cap. 

Oh God, those scans showing Cap dodgeing Quick Silver surpasses the ridiculousness of him lasting as long as he did against Spiderman.  Don't even get me started with Iron Man.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2006)

So basically, your argument amounts to: "Gai wins because I say so, and all the canon material that proves me wrong doesn't count, also because I say so".

Sorry, that's not exactly convincing.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Whine, whine, whine.
> 
> It's canon, get over it.
> 
> I'm not seeing any way that Gai can compete here.



Double standards

Didn't you say Spidey beating Firelord was stupid?

I think you did


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## Endless Mike (Oct 19, 2006)

Yes, I did. It can still be rationalized, however.

Yet Cap's feats that I presented are not nearly that outlandish.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2006)

Him beating Spidey is. 

Capt is barely pushing 1 tonne, Spidey is at least class 15

Also just because he could bounce around trees doesn't mean he can beat Gai. It just means he can bounce around tree, in fact that's what Lee was doing against Gaara except you cauldn't even see Lee


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## Jin22 (Oct 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> So basically, your argument amounts to: "Gai wins because I say so, and all the canon material that proves me wrong doesn't count, also because I say so".


Are you serious?  I'll remind you that we're talking about an olympic level athlete(the best in the world even, whatever) who most likely couldn't outrun the slowest of cars, dodging someone faster than the speed of sound?

I don't know about you, but even _canonical evidence_ has it's limits.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2006)

Gai is fast but I doubt he's near the speed of sound though. I think that was a anime only thing


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## Jin22 (Oct 20, 2006)

Not Gai, you got it wrong. I'm talking about the Quick Silver scan he used to discern Gai's speed advantage.


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## Violent Man (Oct 20, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Whine, whine, whine.
> 
> It's canon, get over it.
> 
> I'm not seeing any way that Gai can compete here.



Your being hypcritocal(sp?) I'm not trying to make fun or nothing but Jplaya said the exact same thing about Cell being able to destroy the Solar System and you still argued against it.


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## ZergKage (Oct 20, 2006)

Thanks jpla....i mean Endless Mike

So Spiderman > Firelord. All i wanted to hear


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## Endless Mike (Oct 20, 2006)

That's because Cell just said he could destroy the solar system.

The things I am showing are things Cap has actually _done_

And he does these kinds of things consistently, as well. It's not a fluke like Spider-man beating Firelord.

If I posted scans of Cap beating Thor or something, you might have a point, but I'm simply posting things that he does consistently. It seems that you people are just underestimating him and you think he should be at a level way weaker than what he actually is.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 20, 2006)

So he beats Spiderman level guys consistently even though it defies all odds? Could you post those scans then? I find it hard to believe

So because he does stuff like that he instantly beats Gai who is also easily capable of the same stuff



Tell me, is he capable of that? That's faster than any tree bounching or jumping around away from bullet fire.
And it's obvious that Gai would be faster when if he opens 5th gate


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## Endless Mike (Oct 20, 2006)

Right, right, the old "argumentum ad manga drawing style".

You have quantification on exactly how fast that is?

Because until you do, bullet - dodging beats it easily.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 20, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Right, right, the old "argumentum ad manga drawing style".
> 
> You have quantification on exactly how fast that is?
> 
> Because until you do, bullet - dodging beats it easily.



Do you have a guess on fast Capt is moving? I don't want guesses. I want exact numbers

I mean seriously, half of your scans was just him bounching around looking really fast, that's what my scan did except it was continous

Also Capt isn't bullet dodging, he was moving fast enough so the people couldn't aim at him. Unless you want to say his meta human is equal to Spidey somehow...


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## Endless Mike (Oct 20, 2006)

Well considering in some of the scans he moved so fast no one could even see him and dodged bullets at point - blank range only to appear directly behind the gunner....


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 20, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Well considering in some of the scans he moved so fast no one could even see him and dodged bullets at point - blank range only to appear directly behind the gunner....



And that was a normal human. In general Naruto ninjas are slightly above normal humans in physical capabilities

Even Kakashi needed his Sharingan to see what Lee was doing


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## Gunshin (Oct 20, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Right, right, the old "argumentum ad manga drawing style".
> 
> You have quantification on exactly how fast that is?
> 
> Because until you do, bullet - dodging beats it easily.


The ol'dodging bullet gag. 

How to dodge a bullet.

1. Look at the guy(s) with a gun(s).
2. Be able to understand the space the person(s) with the gun(s) can cover.
3. Predict which way the straight line will attack you.
4. Move out of the way.

Come on. The feat of bullet dodging is done everyday in real life by the cops and soldiers of many different countries. Its been done by regular Japanese students in Battle Royale to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. There is a big difference between bullet dodging and moving so fast that you can punch them in one direction and then run past them and punch them in another direction (repeat multiple times). Moving so fast that the ground below you crumbles.

Seriously... how can you compare the feat of dodging a bullet to this:

Luffy vs Bellamy


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## jplaya2023 (Oct 20, 2006)

it's good to see people caling out endless mike on his seemingly endless amounts of hyporipsy and general misunderstandings of the way things work. I called it months in advance we would reach this point with Mike.



Comic Book Guy said:


> Don't even try to be all high and mighty. You're the prime example of what hypocrisy entails.



Nope not me. You know damn well i aint no hypocrit thats only comic book guy slander u spewing. Your giving posters a negative perception about me



MdB said:


> i disagree with endless mike



all that matter. Now stfu noob


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## Hagen (Oct 20, 2006)

Gai is going to break his bones against an unmovable object such as Cap's shield.
He is going to tire of running someday (cap never tires)
Cap will beat him in the end.


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## jplaya2023 (Oct 20, 2006)

Locard said:


> Gai is going to break his bones against an unmovable object such as Cap's shield.
> He is going to tire of running someday (cap never tires)
> Cap will beat him in the end.




cap isnt fast enough to defend against gai with his sheild


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## Comic Book Guy (Oct 20, 2006)

> it's good to see people caling out endless mike on his seemingly endless amounts of hyporipsy and general misunderstandings of the way things work. I called it months in advance we would reach this point with Mike.



Don't even try to be all high and mighty. You're the prime example of what hypocrisy entails.


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## MdB (Oct 20, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> it's good to see people caling out endless mike on his seemingly endless amounts of hyporipsy and general misunderstandings of the way things work. I called it months in advance we would reach this point with Mike.



although i disagree with endless mike, you need to shut the fuck up hypocrite.
Itachi can beat galactus LOL LOL LOL.....

what i've seen from ultimate cap he's going to be a rag doll _if_ gai opens his gates.


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## Comic Book Guy (Oct 20, 2006)

> Nope not me.



Yeah, you. Your bias of canonicity proves it.



> You know damn well i aint no hypocrit



I, and numerous others, know that you are one.



> thats only comic book guy slander u spewing. Your giving posters a negative perception about me



They don't really need me to know that. They can judge your posts quite fine without my intervention.


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## MdB (Oct 20, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> all that matter. Now stfu noob



Why dont you quote the whole post fucktard, btw you're pathetic by editing you're post so i can see it over my head.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 20, 2006)

Locard said:


> Gai is going to break his bones against an unmovable object such as Cap's shield.
> He is going to tire of running someday (cap never tires)
> Cap will beat him in the end.



So that's how Wolverine beat him right?


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## Giovanni Rild (Oct 20, 2006)

Forte.EXE said:


> So that's how Wolverine beat him right?



Logan and Gai aren't even comparable.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 20, 2006)

Illuminati Gate said:


> Logan and Gai aren't even comparable.



I hope you don't mean in a KO fight that Logan can win


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## Giovanni Rild (Oct 20, 2006)

Forte.EXE said:


> I hope you don't mean in a KO fight that Logan can win


Comic fans have a nasty habit of, If A can beat B, and B can C, then A can magically beat C. 

Likewise, if a comic character beat fully fed Galatus or something that powerful, then it's magically no contest without being up for debate as to how the victory will be gained.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 20, 2006)

Squirrel Girl is the exception to the rule though


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## Giovanni Rild (Oct 20, 2006)

I don't give a damn if Cap beat hulk, I wanna know how he's gonna beat Gai.


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## Vicious (Oct 20, 2006)

> Comic fans have a nasty habit of, If A can beat B, and B can C, then A can magically beat C.
> 
> Likewise, if a comic character beat fully fed Galatus or something that powerful, then it's magically no contest without being up for debate as to how the victory will be gained.


damn thats exactly wat i see, its like hulk punch cap and he survived so cap>>gai


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## Violent Man (Oct 20, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> it's good to see people caling out endless mike on his seemingly endless amounts of hyporipsy and general misunderstandings of the way things work. I called it months in advance we would reach this point with Mike.



This is just one fight that were disagreeing on. Mikes rep still has a shitload of credibility. It's just this fight is kind of hard to decide who would win for some people.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2006)

I'm not claiming that Cap can actually beat Hulk in a straight - up, fair fight. On the contrary, he would be crushed. However the fact that he can actually use his skill and power to hold his own is really impressive, something that I highly doubt Gai could do.

Basically this whole thread is just a bunch of people underestimating Cap, and when I post feats of him performing better than people think he can, they just arbitrarily decide it doesn't count, even though they have no evidence against this and he does this kind of stuff consistently.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 21, 2006)

You're underestimating Gai
You know that scan I showed, could Capt do that? Before you answer consider this

What Lee was doing was punching Gaara around _in the air_. The strength needed to do that is considerable since Gaara was hit hard enough to move in a straight line (a weaker punch would wouldn't have knocked him straight). In addition to that, Lee had to move fast enough so he overtook Gaara _in mid air_ by bounching off the walls, extreme speed is required for that

Now this might be resonable if it was done a couple of times but it was done at least 10 times. Clearly the stamina, strength and speed required to continue it is above that of any peak human and pushing meta human

And to add onto this, Lee was using the gates. Logically Gai would be faster/stronger so he probably could either open one less gate or continue the attack for longer periods of time


*Spoiler*: __ 








What he does here was punch the rock wall so hard that it actually shakes the rock 


*Spoiler*: __ 








Nothing really specialy but he jumped pretty high


*Spoiler*: __ 








Fast enough for you? In less than a second, Gai came from nowhere and rams that nin into the wall. Moving so fast that he wasn't there in the previous panel


*Spoiler*: __ 








And without 'punch pushes' the nin through the wall. Something that requires amazing amount of strength

The problem with alot of your scans is that they're something Gai could probably do (heck even Lee could jump around like that)


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2006)

None of those feats require nearly as much strength as throwing his shield so fast and with so much force that it can intercept and down a missile or a helicopter.




That's two times with the same feat. Consistency.



Rips through a truck

Link removed

Missile feat (I'd like to see any Naruto ninja do that with a kunai or shuriken)





Beats Power Man, who was at least class 15 back then.



Tactical rebound attack



Breaks through a building (see the top of the first panel)




Breaks down a steel door (while his shoulder is broken)



Pulls a fully loaded truck across the desert



Rips out part of a tractor


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 21, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> None of those feats require nearly as much strength as throwing his shield so fast and with so much force that it can intercept and down a missile or a helicopter.



Really? Could you give a number on the strength required and a credibly source to back that up?



> That's two times with the same feat. Consistency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll like to mention the fact that Capt's shield is probably the hardest material on the planet would have some impact on it.



> Beats Power Man, who was at least class 15 back then.



'_Back then_' was Marvel's retarded days. You know, Spidey > Firelord, Daredevil/Black Cat/Prowler giving Spidey a run for his movey. You know the stuff that _shouldn't_ happen

Also how would you explain his loss to Wolverine? I'm sure Logan ain't class 15, he's lucky to break class 1



> Tactical rebound attack



That's good and all but that was against a target standing still. 



> Breaks through a building (see the top of the first panel)



I believe he jumped with Hyde through the wall. Even though it's not anything a normal human could do, it's nothing that Gai couldn't resonably do 



> Breaks down a steel door (while his shoulder is broken)



Though that is impressive, the impressive part is not actually knocking the door down (a door can hold only as strong as it's hinges are) but actually bending the steel



> Pulls a fully loaded truck across the desert



Though ignore the trunks contents (if it was weapons then it could put another few hundreds kilos but it's food), you're forgetting that pulling vehicles is very possible for current humans. I mean some ridiculous people could pull 747s

Since it was through a desert, that shows his endurance/stamina if anything



> Rips out part of a tractor


[/quote]

He ripped out the back door part, it looked fairly thin and since it was a door, it wouldn't have been something extraordinaryly hard

Again have you any speed feats on par with what gated Lee was doing?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2006)

Forte.EXE said:


> Really? Could you give a number on the strength required and a credibly source to back that up?



ICBMs like that travel faster than the speed of sound. Cap's shield was significantly faster than the missle to tear it apart like that.



> I'll like to mention the fact that Capt's shield is probably the hardest material on the planet would have some impact on it.



Not really, doesn't matter how hard it is if he doesn't throw it with enough force it won't do these things.



> '_Back then_' was Marvel's retarded days. You know, Spidey > Firelord, Daredevil/Black Cat/Prowler giving Spidey a run for his movey. You know the stuff that _shouldn't_ happen



So you automatically dismiss any feats from the 70s and 80s? You can't just ignore two whole decades of continuity because you don't like it.



> Also how would you explain his loss to Wolverine? I'm sure Logan ain't class 15, he's lucky to break class 1



Adamantium claws, healing factor, speed, extreme skill, etc. Wolverine is no pushover. Besides, exactly which fight are you talking about?



> That's good and all but that was against a target standing still.



Read it again. Just because he's not drawn with an anime blurry style movement doesn't mea he's not moving and fighting.



> I believe he jumped with Hyde through the wall. Even though it's not anything a normal human could do, it's nothing that Gai couldn't resonably do



Still impressive.



> Though that is impressive, the impressive part is not actually knocking the door down (a door can hold only as strong as it's hinges are) but actually bending the steel



Which is way greater than anything Gai has ever done.



> Though ignore the trunks contents (if it was weapons then it could put another few hundreds kilos but it's food), you're forgetting that pulling vehicles is very possible for current humans. I mean some ridiculous people could pull 747s



Yeah, groups of dozens of people. Not one person.



> Since it was through a desert, that shows his endurance/stamina if anything



Indeed.



> He ripped out the back door part, it looked fairly thin and since it was a door, it wouldn't have been something extraordinaryly hard



You also missed that he ripped out the steel pipe and machinery from inside.



> Again have you any speed feats on par with what gated Lee was doing?



I've already shown you, but you just ignore them and say they don't count (like reacting to Quicksilver, doding bullets, throwing his shield and then jumping forward and getting to his opponent before the shield did, taking out a group of thugs with guns so fast they can't even realize what's happening, dodging around a group of terrorists so fast they can't see him, dodging and evading all the hazards of the X-Men's Danger Room, etc.)


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## ZergKage (Oct 21, 2006)

So all one should have to do is show Cap getting hit twice by anything slow then it will have to be fact right?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2006)

Of course he gets hit by enemies, no one ever claimed he has perfect dodging skills.


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 21, 2006)

So then it's reasonable to think that he wont be able to dodge Gai


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2006)

Oh, he'll be able to dodge. Just not every blow. But then again, Cap is ridiculously durable and the blows won't put him down.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 21, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> ICBMs like that travel faster than the speed of sound. Cap's shield was significantly faster than the missle to tear it apart like that.



Which is canon but is ridiculous



> Not really, doesn't matter how hard it is if he doesn't throw it with enough force it won't do these things.



And if it wasn't hard enough then it would have been harder to break the metal



> So you automatically dismiss any feats from the 70s and 80s? You can't just ignore two whole decades of continuity because you don't like it.



I'm not ignoring, I'm saying it's stupid. It's like all of a sudden, Naruto suddenly beats Tsunade in a fist fight



> Adamantium claws, healing factor, speed, extreme skill, etc. Wolverine is no pushover. Besides, exactly which fight are you talking about?



From wikipedia 
Captain America # 404 / Wolverine Origins # 4-5



> Read it again. Just because he's not drawn with an anime blurry style movement doesn't mea he's not moving and fighting.



Ok then, do you have him throwing the shield (and hitting) someone really fast



> Still impressive.



For a normal human yes but for a meta human, they should be able to do that in their sleep



> Which is way greater than anything Gai has ever done.



Well we don't know if Gai is capable of such a feat (though I can agree I don't think he could do it with his shoulder)



> Yeah, groups of dozens of people. Not one person.



here



> You also missed that he ripped out the steel pipe and machinery from inside.



Which isn't exactly a superhuman level feat



> I've already shown you, but you just ignore them and say they don't count (like reacting to Quicksilver, doding bullets, throwing his shield and then jumping forward and getting to his opponent before the shield did, taking out a group of thugs with guns so fast they can't even realize what's happening, dodging around a group of terrorists so fast they can't see him, dodging and evading all the hazards of the X-Men's Danger Room, etc.)



Reacting to Quicksilver :  As said earlier, Quicksilver could have punched him instead of putting his hand on his shoulder

Dodging bullets: To dodge bullets, the bullet needs to have left the barrel and Capt would have to react then. What most of them showed was Capt moving fast enough so the gunner couldn't keep track of him

Throwing shield: Impressive yes, though given the opportunity (and experience with a shield), Gai could probably pull it off

Taking out thugs: So? That's nothing compared to that Lee scan considering that Lee could barely be seen and was in the air as well (which is _much_ harder)

Again as I said earlier, none of your 'speed feats' are even close to what Lee was doing with gates


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## Ludwig The Holy Blade (Oct 21, 2006)

No offense to his fans,but the cap doesen't stand a chance.  Gai would be behind Captain America before he could blink.  Then he could use ura rengen,and the fight would be OVER.But then again,Captain America is smart,and may find a way to beat GAi,but I doubt it.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2006)

Forte.EXE said:


> Which is canon but is ridiculous



You asked for evidence, I gave it to you. Your tactics mainly rely on dismissing any evidence you don't like by arbitrarily saying it doesn't count.



> And if it wasn't hard enough then it would have been harder to break the metal



If it wasn't as strong then the shield itself would break.



> I'm not ignoring, I'm saying it's stupid. It's like all of a sudden, Naruto suddenly beats Tsunade in a fist fight



Cap has a history of taking on enemies tougher and stronger than him and winning due to his superior skills.



> From wikipedia
> Captain America # 404 / Wolverine Origins # 4-5



Haven't read those, but as I said, Cap isn't exactly out of Wolvie's league. Logan would beat Gai, too.



> Ok then, do you have him throwing the shield (and hitting) someone really fast



You keep asking me for evidence when I've already shown you tons. The missile and helicopters aren't enough now?

How about you show me Gai ever beating someone who can lift dozens of tons, or is invulnerable to bullets, or smashing open a foot - thick steel door, or surviving falls from hundreds of feet in the air.



> For a normal human yes but for a meta human, they should be able to do that in their sleep



Proving that Cap is above peak human.



> Well we don't know if Gai is capable of such a feat (though I can agree I don't think he could do it with his shoulder)



We go by what has been shown, if he hasn't been shown or stated to be able to do something like that, there's no reason to assume he could.



> *snip link*



I stand corrected then, but still 91 meters is nothing compared to pulling it across a whole desert.



> Which isn't exactly a superhuman level feat



Since when? What real - life human could do that?



> Reacting to Quicksilver :  As said earlier, Quicksilver could have punched him instead of putting his hand on his shoulder



Doesn't change the fact that Quicksilver was moving at super speed and Cap reacted to him and dodged him. Besides, one enemy they were fighting that had just fought Quicksilver said Cap was just as fast.



> Dodging bullets: To dodge bullets, the bullet needs to have left the barrel and Capt would have to react then. What most of them showed was Capt moving fast enough so the gunner couldn't keep track of him



That excuse doesn't exactly work when the dodging is done at point - blank range.



> Throwing shield: Impressive yes, though given the opportunity (and experience with a shield), Gai could probably pull it off



Proof?



> Taking out thugs: So? That's nothing compared to that Lee scan considering that Lee could barely be seen and was in the air as well (which is _much_ harder)



He threw his shield and sliced all of their guns to pieces so fast they didn't even see what happened. Lee could still be seen fighting Gaara.



> Again as I said earlier, none of your 'speed feats' are even close to what Lee was doing with gates



You have yet to prove this, you just keep saying it with no evidence.

In fact, I'll post the speed feats and scans again and evidence just to see how you blatantly dismiss them.







Dodges and destroys all of the danger room's weapons and traps (including edged weapons, blunt weapons, projectile weapons, and lasers) and escapes from Hercules.




Even with a hangover, Captain America matches Beast in agility and speed.




Punisher runs up to the top floor of a building to escape from Cap but Cap got there first and was waiting for him.



High - speed fight against the Rhino. Just because it's not the same drawing style as Gaara vs. Lee doesn't mean it's not as fast.



Strength feat. Golden age Cap bends metal bars.



Golden age again. Cap punches so hard the sound of blows hurts nearby people's ears.



Golden age, catches an artillery shell and deflects another one with his shield.



Speed and dodging feats

this


Two thugs draw guns on him but he takes them out before they can even fire.



Quicksilver is impressed with Cap's speed



A guy who just beat Quicksilver says Cap is as fast




Reacts to completely unexpected attacks super fast. Also takes out three gunmen easily.



Dodges a laser and takes out two enemies at the same time.



Takes on a robot with knowledge of every martial arts style in the world.



Moves so fast Beast loses track of him



Hulk (who is much stronger than Cap, obviously) throws his shield (much faster) and Cap catches it.



Beats Mr. X who was super fast and agile



Hits Cable with the shield while in midair and deflects him to avoid hurting innocents.





Here he's ambushed by a bunch of werewolves but he beats them and scares them off.









Point - blank bullet dodging/deflection.




Attacked by a group of enemies, escapes into the trees so fast they couldn't see him.



Moves so fast enemies lose track of him.



Projectile dodging/deflection after it was in flight.



Throws his shield and catches up with it.



Moves super fast and blocks multiple energy beams, even creating afterimages.



Again blocks multiple beams.




Dodges dozens of laser beams in Zero - G



Dodges bullets after they were already in flight.



After bullets were fired, he throws his shield and intercepts them.



Throws his shield faster than a car, calculates it to deflect off obstacles and hit the car from the front.






Reacts to speedsters



Tags Super-Adaptoid, who had the speed of Quicksilver




Deflects a sneak attack from Black Panther and beats him



Dodges energy beams, has perfect timing and aim.



Outruns a car thrown by a super - strong being and saves people in its path.




Throws his shield from the ground hard enough to hit Baron Blood in the clouds and stun him, then takes a guy throwing a box car at him.



Fights Iron Spidey.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2006)

And if none of that convinces you, try this:


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## Endless Mike (Oct 21, 2006)

Seand said:


> No offense to his fans,but the cap doesen't stand a chance.  Gai would be behind Captain America before he could blink.  Then he could use ura rengen,and the fight would be OVER.But then again,Captain America is smart,and may find a way to beat GAi,but I doubt it.



You're underestimating him, he tags and dodges fast enemies all the time and has great speed feats of his own and is incredibly durable.


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## Captain Pimp (Oct 21, 2006)

I have to go with Cap. America in this battle. I can't post any scans because I don't have the comic I read since it's library material :sweat

One of the comics I read was C.A. The New Deal, which was about post 9/11. *skips to the fight ---) At the end of the comic, C.A. had to escape from an explosion, but was trapped in the debris. Then a terrorist dropped a grenade in the debris and it was about 2-4 feet close to C.A.'s face. C.A. was able to get away from that explosion while he was unable to move...

Gai is fast and all, but C.A.'s reaction speed is incredible...


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## ZergKage (Oct 21, 2006)

Now can you show us any scans of him being hit by slow people. in 30+ years in comics i'm sure hes been hit by slow people.....you know the bad with the good to average it out


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## jplaya2023 (Oct 22, 2006)

ZergKage said:


> Now can you show us any scans of him being hit by slow people. in 30+ years in comics i'm sure hes been hit by slow people.....you know the bad with the good to average it out



hypocrits only show one side of an argument.


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## Comic Book Guy (Oct 22, 2006)

> hypocrits only show one side of an argument.



And this hypocrisy of this post is utterly prime. . . how ironic. . .


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## Hamaru (Oct 22, 2006)

Gai would beat Captians ass before he knew what happend


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## ZergKage (Oct 22, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> And this hypocrisy of this post is utterly prime. . . how ironic. . .



All jplayaness aside wouldnt you say its unreasonable that Cap is => Gai in speed just because he has a scan of it. 

Wouldnt that be like me saying Deathstroke is faster than Flash because he was able to stab him, or he can beat GL's because Kyle tried to punch him. Isnt there a limit commonly refered to as jobbing or "jobber arua" that you dismiss


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## Comic Book Guy (Oct 22, 2006)

> All jplayaness aside wouldnt you say its unreasonable that Cap is => Gai in speed just because he has a scan of it.



Well, regarding Marvel, there is very few retcons like DC's COIE for instance. So yes, the scans provided by EM are canon.

However, keep in mind of the Golden and Silver Comic Ages and the Modern Comic Age. Everyone can agree here that the writing and stories differ from each era. Whereas DC had the luxury of COIE to mark the difference, Marvel does not -- it gradually changed.

So really, what should be noted is what Comicdom Age of CA is being debated -- Modern Age, or Golden/Silver Age.



> Wouldnt that be like me saying Deathstroke is faster than Flash because he was able to stab him, or he can beat GL's because Kyle tried to punch him. Isnt there a limit commonly refered to as jobbing or "jobber arua" that you dismiss



I wouldn't say that as 'jobbing aura'. Stories were conceptualized and written quite differently in the Golden and Silver Ages than the Modern Age.


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## ZergKage (Oct 22, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Well, regarding Marvel, there is very few retcons like DC's COIE for instance. So yes, the scans provided by EM are canon.
> 
> However, keep in mind of the Golden and Silver Comic Ages and the Modern Comic Age. Everyone can agree here that the writing and stories differ from each era. Whereas DC had the luxury of COIE to mark the difference, Marvel does not -- it gradually changed.
> 
> So really, what should be noted is what Comicdom Age of CA is being debated -- Modern Age, or Golden/Silver Age.





			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say that as 'jobbing aura'. Stories were conceptualized and written quite differently in the Golden and Silver Ages than the Modern Age.



No no i know the scans are "canon" in the since that they happened, thats not my point. My point is that some things are accepted by the readers as non cannon and canon. Take for instance Deathstroke beating the JLA. Example....Deathstroke isnt as fast as Flash so its not accepted that he was able to stab him. In other words PIS. If Cap was able to do everything EM showed up 24/7 and under every writer then dont you have to accept anything that is ever written in a comic book. How could you debate against someone like Superman if he has once taken a 1/2 a galaxy destorying blast and lived to tell the tale, but then debate that punches from Darkseid will hurt him. Does Darkseid hit with the power to destroy a galaxy??? No. You can also wipe out whole arcs like Spidermans "Clone Saga" which most people dismiss. Or again Torquasm-Vo, that hasnt been used in ages because most writers thought it silly for Superman to have Telepathy also. In that sense all of the above is canon but how far are you willing to go to prove that someone who is peak human can go beyond his limit. Now i'm fine with people going beyond their limit during trying times/near death but should i look at a few scans of someones best perfomances and accept that as the norm or accept that he is always like that????

Basically if i'm to accept those scans i'm forced to believe that Itachi could beat Galactus if Galactus looked into his eyes. I'd have to accept that Spiderman > Firelord and Hulk. I'd have to accept that Deathstroke > Flash in speed. I'd have to accept Ka-zar(MU Tarzan) > a Thanos clone. I'd have to accept that Doc Strange matched the LT for a short period of time. I'd have to accept basically anything ever printed in a comicbook.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 22, 2006)

A note Mike, none of your scans showed that Capt was considerably above what Gai has done in either speed or strength, if anything they show they're roughly even (though it flucuates with writer to writer)

And as ZK said, if you take everything canon then you cannot dismiss the PIS syndrome. If Capt is suddenly matching blows with Spidey, does that instantly mean he's suddenly class 15 and has the agility to match it? If he was moving faster than a car, does that he constantly moves at that speed?
Even though (according to you) Capt is faster and stronger, that doesn't instantly mean he will win


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## Hiruma (Oct 22, 2006)

But Cap brings PIS everywhere he goes. There's almost on fight where there's on PIS with him from what I can gather.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 22, 2006)

This is so annoying. I provide hard, solid evidence and you people just arbitrarily decide to ignore it.

Guess what? It's canon! You can't ignore it. You have to accept it. People saying Gai will win so easily are just being blinded by ignorance and fanboyism.

It would be a tough fight, but Cap would prevail.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> This is so annoying. I provide hard, solid evidence and you people just arbitrarily decide to ignore it.
> 
> Guess what? It's canon! You can't ignore it. You have to accept it. People saying Gai will win so easily are just being blinded by ignorance and fanboyism.



I'm not totally ignoring all of it. I can agree that he's devishly strong, probably pushing top tier meta human on a good day

He's fast as well, as with his strength he's pushing top tier meta human on a good day

It's really stupid stuff like him taking on people clearly out of his league (like Spidey and stronger) and _winning_ which is clearly wrong. To have the strength to throw his shield fast and hard enough to take out a ICBM or helicopter is something meta humans _shouldn't_ be able to do. 



> It would be a tough fight, but Cap would prevail.



Here is the thing, both are very evenly match and the match could go both ways (though I'm facing towards Konoha's Prideful Green Beast) though this is my opinion and no amount of resonable evidence could change this


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## el MoFo (Oct 22, 2006)

Gai with gates open is faster than Captain A, but the damage it does to it's body is terrible. Remember the fight between lee and gaara. Opening the gates damages the body because it removes the restraints you have in the brain and makes you ignore pain. Lee and Gai's fighting style are double edged weapons. This fight is a fight that will be won by tactics, planning the fight and outlasting the other. Gai's main techniques wont make him last, when captain A's muscles wont ever tire. Also the simple fact Captain A is a master tactician and plans a fight from the beginning to the end. He would have a better chance of winning. If he life's after gai with opened his gates and unleashes a masive attack.

I route for Captain A, after reading the thread, which most people dont actually do


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## ZergKage (Oct 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> This is so annoying. I provide hard, solid evidence and you people just arbitrarily decide to ignore it.
> 
> Guess what? It's canon! You can't ignore it. You have to accept it. People saying Gai will win so easily are just being blinded by ignorance and fanboyism.
> 
> It would be a tough fight, but Cap would prevail.



Even tho Forte.EXE already said it i'll say it again. It's not the entire group of scans that are unbelieveable but certain things are. But things he shouldnt be able to do, you chalk it up as none canon Mike and you know this. Its just sad that you're willing to go so far to prove that Comics > Manga. 

As i've said before i put Comics before Manga but that doesnt affect my judgement in Vs threads. The only ignorance i can see in this thread is that you're willing to accept everything, even if it's out of that characters ability to do, just to try and prove something. I'm not sure about Forte.EXE but i wanna see how far this is going to go with you. I wanna see if it's even worth it later on to debate you on certain topics. I want to see what your willing to accept and what your not willing to accept.

Examples

Wolverine vs Deathstroke - i'm sure most people would say this is a pretty even fight. Of course unless you are willing to accept that Deathstroke stabbed the Flash making him as fast as the Flash.

Thats more or less what i'm interested in. Really i know Gai would win because i am reasonable and i can understand jobbing and PIS. I want to see if you understand jobbing and PIS.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 22, 2006)

ZergKage said:


> Even tho Forte.EXE already said it i'll say it again. It's not the entire group of scans that are unbelieveable but certain things are. But things he shouldnt be able to do, you chalk it up as none canon Mike and you know this. Its just sad that you're willing to go so far to prove that Comics > Manga.



Strawman. When did I ever say that? In fact in many threads I've said they're equal because they both have omnipotents. 



> As i've said before i put Comics before Manga but that doesnt affect my judgement in Vs threads. The only ignorance i can see in this thread is that you're willing to accept everything, even if it's out of that characters ability to do, just to try and prove something.



If the character does something, then by definition, it's within their ability to do. 



> I'm not sure about Forte.EXE but i wanna see how far this is going to go with you. I wanna see if it's even worth it later on to debate you on certain topics. I want to see what your willing to accept and what your not willing to accept.



I'm willing to accept canon evidene, which you're apparently not.



> Examples
> 
> Wolverine vs Deathstroke - i'm sure most people would say this is a pretty even fight. Of course unless you are willing to accept that Deathstroke stabbed the Flash making him as fast as the Flash.



Of course he's not as fast as the Flash. He had one - sided prep and led the Flash to him, and Flash was holding back due to the fact that he was in the middle of a city. For example, he could have just vibrated through the sword, but that would make it explode and kill a lot of people.



> Thats more or less what i'm interested in. Really i know Gai would win because i am reasonable and i can understand jobbing and PIS. I want to see if you understand jobbing and PIS.



Yeah, you "know" Gai would win, despite the fact that all evidence says otherwise. I have shown tons of scans and evidence to show that Cap is powerful enough to win, but you just arbitrarily ignore all of them. It's not just one ridiculous thing, like him beating Thor or something, it's him consistently performing superhuman feats. Your problem is that you simply do not know much about Captain America, and you think he is way weaker than he actually is, and any evidence that flies in the face of your preconcieved notion you just dismiss automatically, even if it is everywhere and incontrovertible. Cap actually has way more, and better, feats than Gai does, so if you were really 'reasonable' you would agree with me.


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## Hagen (Oct 22, 2006)

^Sadly, the polls always reflects the popularity, not the truth.
E.mike dont waste your time trying to convince Gai defenders, they are ignoring your evidence on purpose.

I think the fight would be like this:

1-Gai attacks the Cap at superspeed trying to land a punch or kick.
2-Cap blocks the attack with his superhuman reaction speed that he has showed consistently throughout his career.
3-Gai's limb (leg/arm) broke against Cap shield, the most solid object known by humanity.
4-Cap manhandle Gai.


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## ZergKage (Oct 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Strawman. When did I ever say that? In fact in many threads I've said they're equal because they both have omnipotents.



No its not a strawman if you truely believe that. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> If the character does something, then by definition, it's within their ability to do.



Ok Mike, good to know.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I'm willing to accept canon evidene, which you're apparently not.



Ok, again good to know.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Of course he's not as fast as the Flash. He had one - sided prep and led the Flash to him, and Flash was holding back due to the fact that he was in the middle of a city. For example, he could have just vibrated through the sword, but that would make it explode and kill a lot of people.



One sided prep or not he had to be able to follow Flash or he wouldnt have known when to stab. Therefore he is as fast as Flash. Spiderman is god like jplaya says since he can pretty much beat Firelord and Hulk. Again good to know, thanks.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yeah, you "know" Gai would win, despite the fact that all evidence says otherwise. I have shown tons of scans and evidence to show that Cap is powerful enough to win, but you just arbitrarily ignore all of them. It's not just one ridiculous thing, like him beating Thor or something, it's him consistently performing superhuman feats. Your problem is that you simply do not know much about Captain America, and you think he is way weaker than he actually is, and any evidence that flies in the face of your preconcieved notion you just dismiss automatically, even if it is everywhere and incontrovertible. Cap actually has way more, and better, feats than Gai does, so if you were really 'reasonable' you would agree with me.



(Could have swore i said i wasnt ignoring all of them, beside the unreasonable ones.)

Ah, and the old debate about you knowing a character more than i do because you looked at some respect thread. I love this. You know more about a character than i do when we have both seen the same respect thread. Funny. The only thing is i know that respect threads dont show you the other side of the coin. I know that on average not everything shown in a respect thread is used 100% of the time. I can go to the same place as you and show you a Nick Fury respect thread that is impressive, yet we both know that Batgirl would beat Nick Fury bloody. Thats why there called respect threads, because they only show you the good. Or do you think Hulk can always clap away a dimension.

Really, I dont see why it's so hard for you to say that Spiderman > Firelord since it is canon. I mean you made a thread about it just to see what reasonable people would say. I guess cement trucks can knock the Hulk out also. Bricks can knock out Silver Surfer. All of this is canon right???

In all i think i see what your saying Mike. Thanks for answering my questions


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 22, 2006)

ZergKage said:


> No its not a strawman if you truely believe that.



Except I don't. Which is what I just said. 



> One sided prep or not he had to be able to follow Flash or he wouldnt have known when to stab. Therefore he is as fast as Flash.



Did you even read the comic? He set Flash up on a path toward him, he didn't follow him, and Flash wasn't going anywhere near full speed. Probably not even sound speed. Flash doesn't go lightspeed against street - level people, that would be pointless.



> Spiderman is god like jplaya says since he can pretty much beat Firelord and Hulk. Again good to know, thanks.



Spider-man has never beaten Hulk (except when he was cosmic Spidey). The closest he came was when he was dodging all of Hulk's attacks (which he can realistically do, due to a combination of his speed and precognition). However, it was stated that a thunderclap from Hulk would own him, but a plot point prevented Hulk from executing one.

As for Firelord, that only happened once, as opposed to the dozens of times I've posted Cap doing great feats (and there are many more than that). Furthermore, the simple explanation is that Firelord completely underestimated his opponent and was only using a tiny, miniscule fraction of his power. None of the feats I've posted are of Cap beating top tier or Herald - level people anyway, so your comparison is completely inaccurate.



> (Could have swore i said i wasnt ignoring all of them, beside the unreasonable ones.)



Which you say are all of them. 

Besides, who made you judge of what is 'reasonable' or not? You just can't ignore evidence because you don't like it, even if it is perfectly consistent with the character's portrayal.



> Ah, and the old debate about you knowing a character more than i do because you looked at some respect thread. I love this. You know more about a character than i do when we have both seen the same respect thread. Funny. The only thing is i know that respect threads dont show you the other side of the coin. I know that on average not everything shown in a respect thread is used 100% of the time. I can go to the same place as you and show you a Nick Fury respect thread that is impressive, yet we both know that Batgirl would beat Nick Fury bloody. Thats why there called respect threads, because they only show you the good. Or do you think Hulk can always clap away a dimension.



You think that is my only knowledge of Cap? I'm willing to be I've read more comics with him in them than all the comics you've ever read. The thing is, I can't get scans from these comics since I don't have a scanner and the ones on my computer I've already deleted, so for scans I have to use the respect thread. Just because it's the only source of scans available doesn't mean it's the only thing I know about the character. Trust me, he does stuff like this all the time. Sure, he has low showings, but then again, so does everyone. And your own logic works both ways, since really low showings can be just as 'unreasonable' as really high ones. For example, if you found a scan of Cap being beaten by some random thug with a baseball bat, would you post that and say it invalidated all of the feats I had posted of him and meant that he would always lose to a random guy with a baseball bat? 



> Really, I dont see why it's so hard for you to say that Spiderman > Firelord since it is canon. I mean you made a thread about it just to see what reasonable people would say. I guess cement trucks can knock the Hulk out also. Bricks can knock out Silver Surfer. All of this is canon right???



And all of it can be rationalized with the majority of canon, which is against it. That is not the case here, what I am posting represents the majority of canon.



> In all i think i see what your saying Mike. Thanks for answering my questions



Get off your high horse, and try actually making arguments against the evidence I have presented, instead of arbitrarily saying it doesn't count.


----------



## Zack_Strife (Oct 22, 2006)

Here's a question: If Cap can throw his sheild hard enough to chop down trees, helicopters, missiles and stuff like that how in the name of god does he catch the damn thing?


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Except I don't. Which is what I just said.



Time will tell



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Did you even read the comic? He set Flash up on a path toward him, he didn't follow him, and Flash wasn't going anywhere near full speed. Probably not even sound speed. Flash doesn't go lightspeed against street - level people, that would be pointless.



There you go, now your being reasonable. So if i was to show you a picture of Flash saving XX,XXX amout of people from a city in under a second then show you Flash running into a sword from somebody no where near his speed you would call that what??? good planning? Prep?? Or Jobbing or PIS. Do you know how fast Flash was going when he ran at Deathstroke. No?? So i'll just assume he going full speed and Deathstroke was just faster. I mean why would he go at a speed he knows Deathstroke would be able to counter against. Unreasonable that Deathstroke is that fast but according to you everything in print is fair game.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Spider-man has never beaten Hulk (except when he was cosmic Spidey). The closest he came was when he was dodging all of Hulk's attacks (which he can realistically do, due to a combination of his speed and precognition). However, it was stated that a thunderclap from Hulk would own him, but a plot point prevented Hulk from executing one.



Yes he has. Here. 









(not my scans but they take a while to load)
Let me know if this should be accepted




			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> As for Firelord, that only happened once, as opposed to the dozens of times I've posted Cap doing great feats (and there are many more than that). Furthermore, the simple explanation is that Firelord completely underestimated his opponent and was only using a tiny, miniscule fraction of his power. None of the feats I've posted are of Cap beating top tier or Herald - level people anyway, so your comparison is completely inaccurate.



Mike Spiderman > Firelord. This is what your telling me.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Which you say are all of them.



Is this when i cry strawman???



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Besides, who made you judge of what is 'reasonable' or not? You just can't ignore evidence because you don't like it, even if it is perfectly consistent with the character's portrayal.



Nobody made me a judge on what is reasonable or not. What i'm trying to do tho is convince you that some of the scans you posted are unreasonable. Put it this way Mike. Doesnt Cap always throw his shield faster than an ICBM missile. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You think that is my only knowledge of Cap? I'm willing to be I've read more comics with him in them than all the comics you've ever read. The thing is, I can't get scans from these comics since I don't have a scanner and the ones on my computer I've already deleted, so for scans I have to use the respect thread. Just because it's the only source of scans available doesn't mean it's the only thing I know about the character. Trust me, he does stuff like this all the time. Sure, he has low showings, but then again, so does everyone. And your own logic works both ways, since really low showings can be just as 'unreasonable' as really high ones. For example, if you found a scan of Cap being beaten by some random thug with a baseball bat, would you post that and say it invalidated all of the feats I had posted of him and meant that he would always lose to a random guy with a baseball bat?



No Mike i wouldnt do that to tell you the truth. Just like you said low showings are just as false as high showings. If a regular thug was to walk up and beat Cap in a fight you'd have to say that is a very very low showing and therefore shouldnt be used when gauging how the character is on average. To show you a scan of a thug hitting Cap and saying this is 100% right and anything else is wrong, is wrong. Because he has also fought people that would be at his level/ or slightly above his level and has dodged their attacks. But what i think is reasonable is that you can atleast come to an average of the two.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And all of it can be rationalized with the majority of canon, which is against it. That is not the case here, what I am posting represents the majority of canon.



Ok Mike, Thanks again. Cap throws faster than ICBM's, is as fast as Spiderman. This is all i wanted to know.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Get off your high horse, and try actually making arguments against the evidence I have presented, instead of arbitrarily saying it doesn't count.



Not on a high horse Mike. And i dont have to try and present evidence of Cap being "human." I'm just tell you that just because you post a scan of somebody doing something 1.) doesnt mean they do it all the time and 2.) that if it isnt in the realm of their ability I will not accept it, and i'd like to believe that i'm in the majority but hey you never know.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 22, 2006)

Zack_Strife said:


> Here's a question: If Cap can throw his sheild hard enough to chop down trees, helicopters, missiles and stuff like that how in the name of god does he catch the damn thing?



Like he says, practice.


----------



## Zack_Strife (Oct 22, 2006)

I lol'd. Seriously though, have they ever came up with an explanation for that kind of thing? Logically Cap's sheild should at the very least break his arm when he catches it after feats like that.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 22, 2006)

ZergKage said:


> There you go, now your being reasonable. So if i was to show you a picture of Flash saving XX,XXX amout of people from a city in under a second then show you Flash running into a sword from somebody no where near his speed you would call that what??? good planning? Prep?? Or Jobbing or PIS. Do you know how fast Flash was going when he ran at Deathstroke. No?? So i'll just assume he going full speed and Deathstroke was just faster.



That's an illogical assumption. Flash doesn't go full speed unless he's up against an opponent where it is required. He was simply not expecting Slade's trap and was not going to kill people by using his powers to escape from it.



> I mean why would he go at a speed he knows Deathstroke would be able to counter against. Unreasonable that Deathstroke is that fast but according to you everything in print is fair game.



He _didn't_ know Deathstroke could counter it because he _didn't_ know about the trap! Don't you even pay attention?



> Yes he has. Here.
> 
> *snip*
> (not my scans but they take a while to load)
> Let me know if this should be accepted



What comic was that?

Besides, it hardly seemed like a normal situation, since that guy was predicting everything, it looked like the fight was rigged.



> Mike Spiderman > Firelord. This is what your telling me.



Are you an idiot? That's exactly the opposite of what I'm telling you. Read it again.



> Is this when i cry strawman???



You haven't accepted any of the feats I've posted.

How about you actually stop this whining and show me feats from Gai that can compare to what I have shown.



> Nobody made me a judge on what is reasonable or not. What i'm trying to do tho is convince you that some of the scans you posted are unreasonable. Put it this way Mike. Doesnt Cap always throw his shield faster than an ICBM missile.



Of course not. That doesn't mean he can't ever if he is really trying.



> No Mike i wouldnt do that to tell you the truth. Just like you said low showings are just as false as high showings. If a regular thug was to walk up and beat Cap in a fight you'd have to say that is a very very low showing and therefore shouldnt be used when gauging how the character is on average. To show you a scan of a thug hitting Cap and saying this is 100% right and anything else is wrong, is wrong. Because he has also fought people that would be at his level/ or slightly above his level and has dodged their attacks. But what i think is reasonable is that you can atleast come to an average of the two.



And the average shows him consistently performing superhuman feats. When he fights super powerful people, he almost always at least gives them pause. Even people like Namor and Iron Man can't just crush him effortlessly, as you would like to think they could.



> Ok Mike, Thanks again. Cap throws faster than ICBM's, is as fast as Spiderman. This is all i wanted to know.



He is capable of throwing the shield that fast, he rarely has to or does. He's not as fast as Spidey, maybe 80% of Spidey at max. He can still keep up with him and not be overwhelmed, though.



> Not on a high horse Mike. And i dont have to try and present evidence of Cap being "human." I'm just tell you that just because you post a scan of somebody doing something 1.) doesnt mean they do it all the time and 2.) that if it isnt in the realm of their ability I will not accept it, and i'd like to believe that i'm in the majority but hey you never know.



I never stated he does it all the time, he doesn't need to, and a lot of time he simply can't push himself that far, is not going all - out. However, it's the height of illogic to claim that something that a character actually did is "not within the realm of their ability". If they did it, then it *IS* within the realm of their ability, *BY DEFINITION!*


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 22, 2006)

Zack_Strife said:


> I lol'd. Seriously though, have they ever came up with an explanation for that kind of thing? Logically Cap's sheild should at the very least break his arm when he catches it after feats like that.



He's just that tough. I keep telling people, he's obviously superhuman, since he does this kind of stuff all the time.


----------



## earthshine (Oct 22, 2006)

damnit mike, just stop.


8 Gates= MASSIVE pwn

6 gates= less of a pwn, but still a massive one

base Gai= good fight, but still has the advantage

I see NO way for cap to win this. I am sorry, I just don't


----------



## Vicious (Oct 22, 2006)

i think ppl are underestimating cap he has survived punches from the hulk.!:amazed


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 22, 2006)

earthshine said:


> damnit mike, just stop.
> 
> 
> 8 Gates= MASSIVE pwn



Which is death for Gai.



> 6 gates= less of a pwn, but still a massive one



Didn't see anything in that fight that could beat Cap that easily.



> base Gai= good fight, but still has the advantage



Proof?



> I see NO way for cap to win this. I am sorry, I just don't



Have you even looked at the scans I posted?


----------



## Ram (Oct 22, 2006)

I refuse to vote against Maito Gai in any battledome thread.


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That's an illogical assumption. Flash doesn't go full speed unless he's up against an opponent where it is required. He was simply not expecting Slade's trap and was not going to kill people by using his powers to escape from it.



So then you can throw me a scan of Flash saying he doesnt try against Lower tier people. Especially Lower tier people that in the past he has faced and known how dangerous they are. If you can't i'll just go by his avg speed which is a lot faster than the speed of sound. Furthermore he was fast enough to dodge multiple landminds but couldnt see a guy sticking a sword between his arms. Whether or not he was trying to kill him is irrelevant as he could have done multiple things to stop him. Why not just steal his speed. You know i can go through a Flash thread and then make the judgement that if he always fought at his "respect thread" level that he would be near unbeatable.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He _didn't_ know Deathstroke could counter it because he _didn't_ know about the trap! Don't you even pay attention?



Oh Mike. When your that fast it doesnt matter if someone has those weak traps for you. You will see them. You know that. Your talking about a guy that has felt something touch the hairs on the back of his neck and then dodged it to find out it was a snipers bullet



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> What comic was that?
> 
> Besides, it hardly seemed like a normal situation, since that guy was predicting everything, it looked like the fight was rigged.



Electro was predicting everything because he has fought Spiderman so many times.

So, should this fight be considered canon???



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Are you an idiot? That's exactly the opposite of what I'm telling you. Read it again.



No what your saying is everything in print is accepted canon. So Spiderman > Firelord is canon. Dont try and make excuses like you are for Flash, Firelord lost.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You haven't accepted any of the feats I've posted.
> 
> How about you actually stop this whining and show me feats from Gai that can compare to what I have shown.


Once again i'll say its not all your scans that i wont accept but a limit few. And other people have shown you what Gai can do. And you know what Gai can do. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Of course not. That doesn't mean he can't ever if he is really trying.



So who made you the judge that he will do it in this fight. How many fights has he thrown his shield that fast in. 1/100 isnt good enough. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And the average shows him consistently performing superhuman feats. When he fights super powerful people, he almost always at least gives them pause. Even people like Namor and Iron Man can't just crush him effortlessly, as you would like to think they could.



Wouldnt you say its PIS that Ironman doesnt just use sonics and AOE blasts that Cap couldnt block. Wouldnt you say its PIS that a CL 90-100 character cant knock out a peak human. I would. Hell i believe an accurate portrayl was in Avengers Disassembled when She-Hulk thru a punch at him and he blocked it with his shield but got knocked out. This also happened against Loki in Thor disassembled, tho it was a blast of force. This also happened in the Lionheart Avengers arc when he was protecting innocents from Wrecking Crew. I can go to a respect thread and get scans of him being hit by slow people like Powerman or Mr Hyde but why do that. 

Giving powerful people pause or lasting more than 20 seconds doesnt mean he can beat Gai. See its like Forte said. If Cap is able to do well against people out of his league why not Gai. So if Cap > Gai then that doesnt mean anything. It then becomes a popularity contest.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He is capable of throwing the shield that fast, he rarely has to or does. He's not as fast as Spidey, maybe 80% of Spidey at max. He can still keep up with him and not be overwhelmed, though.



Alright, thanks again. All i wanted to know.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I never stated he does it all the time, he doesn't need to, and a lot of time he simply can't push himself that far, is not going all - out. However, it's the height of illogic to claim that something that a character actually did is "not within the realm of their ability". If they did it, then it *IS* within the realm of their ability, *BY DEFINITION!*



So everything you've posted here i can see Cap do in any Cap/Avengers book i open right?? Or are you now saying that he has to push himself to do this and you would constitute these scans as going all out.


----------



## Vicious (Oct 22, 2006)

O-v-e-r-k-i-l-l


----------



## Nexas (Oct 22, 2006)

Maito Gai is one of the most powerful  beings in fiction.

He is capable of benching an entire planet with just his left buttcheek.

His jumpsuit is actually a special type of armor that he secretes from his skin, and is stronger than adamantium.

His teeth are so shiny that if you were to look directly into them you would go blind.

He impregnated all the women in Konohana and half of those in Suna with just a pelvic thrust.

He can warp reality, allowing him to open an infinite number of gates with out dieing.

And of course his Dynamic Entry makes attacks like Giga Slave look like childs play.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:


> So then you can throw me a scan of Flash saying he doesnt try against Lower tier people.



Of course he tries, just not nearly as much as against superpowerful threats. This should be common sense.



> Especially Lower tier people that in the past he has faced and known how dangerous they are. If you can't i'll just go by his avg speed which is a lot faster than the speed of sound. Furthermore he was fast enough to dodge multiple landminds but couldnt see a guy sticking a sword between his arms.



Because the sword was already there.



> Whether or not he was trying to kill him is irrelevant as he could have done multiple things to stop him. Why not just steal his speed.



Because Deathstroke wasnt moving? 

He would still run into him.



> You know i can go through a Flash thread and then make the judgement that if he always fought at his "respect thread" level that he would be near unbeatable.



That's because he _doesnt_, not against street - level people. This is simple logic.



> Oh Mike. When your that fast it doesnt matter if someone has those weak traps for you. You will see them. You know that. Your talking about a guy that has felt something touch the hairs on the back of his neck and then dodged it to find out it was a snipers bullet



That was when he first regained his powers and couldn't control them quite well, he caused sonic booms and a lot of damage. He was in a populated area  against someone who he wasn't using anywhere near his full power against. How is this even relevant, anyway? This has nothing to do with Gai or Cap. Start debating properly and find feats by Gai that compare to Cap's _regular, consistent_ performance.



> Electro was predicting everything because he has fought Spiderman so many times.
> 
> So, should this fight be considered canon???



That depends. What comic was it in? What form of Hulk was it? What were the circumstances?



> No what your saying is everything in print is accepted canon. So Spiderman > Firelord is canon. Dont try and make excuses like you are for Flash, Firelord lost.



Of course Firelord lost. However that can easily be rationalized (he completely underestimated Spidey and was using only a tiny fraction of his power). You just don't like to think logically so you don't come up with these things. It's hardly a common occurence, like Cap's feats.



> Once again i'll say its not all your scans that i wont accept but a limit few. And other people have shown you what Gai can do. And you know what Gai can do.



Yes I do, and it's not as impressive as what Cap can do. You know this, so you keep trying to make excuses to say Cap's feats shoudln't count, because you don't want your precious Gai to lose.



> So who made you the judge that he will do it in this fight. How many fights has he thrown his shield that fast in. 1/100 isnt good enough.



The fact that he can do it means that he is capable of it. You can't claim he's incapable of it, if he actually did it. That's completely illogical.



> Wouldnt you say its PIS that Ironman doesnt just use sonics and AOE blasts that Cap couldnt block.



Because he's usually not trying to kill him....

Besides, Cap has taken those kinds of things and survived.



> Wouldnt you say its PIS that a CL 90-100 character cant knock out a peak human.



For the last time, he's not peak human. He's clearly superhuman, he routinely does things that no real life human would ever be able to do.



> I would. Hell i believe an accurate portrayl was in Avengers Disassembled when She-Hulk thru a punch at him and he blocked it with his shield but got knocked out.



That's actually inaccurate, since the Vibranium in his shield nullifies KE and momentum.



> This also happened against Loki in Thor disassembled, tho it was a blast of force.



Loki uses magic, so that's somewhat more understandable.



> This also happened in the Lionheart Avengers arc when he was protecting innocents from Wrecking Crew. I can go to a respect thread and get scans of him being hit by slow people like Powerman or Mr Hyde but why do that.



By what standard are those guys slow? 



> Giving powerful people pause or lasting more than 20 seconds doesnt mean he can beat Gai. See its like Forte said. If Cap is able to do well against people out of his league why not Gai. So if Cap > Gai then that doesnt mean anything. It then becomes a popularity contest.



That doesn't even make sense. Cap can hold his own against people way stronger and tougher than Gai, and he has beaten people on Gai's level or higher. Therefore he can win.



> Alright, thanks again. All i wanted to know.



Translation: "Oh noes! Mike's views don't match with my preconcieved notion of how weak Cap should be, despite the fact that he routinely performs feats way above this level! However, since I'm always right, Mike must just be delusional!"



> So everything you've posted here i can see Cap do in any Cap/Avengers book i open right?? Or are you now saying that he has to push himself to do this and you would constitute these scans as going all out.



Some of them are. The missile feat definitely was. Some of them aren't. The fact is that he is capable of these things, whether you like it or not.


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 23, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Of course he tries, just not nearly as much as against superpowerful threats. This should be common sense.



Ah So you dont have a scan of him saying that? Must not be canon then.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Because the sword was already there.





Here you go Mike. He moved the sword there faster than Flash could get to him. Hes faster than Flash



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Because Deathstroke wasnt moving?
> 
> He would still run into him.



Oh so if you stay still Flash can't/won't steal your speed??? When was this mentioned?? You have a scan of this also, just so i know its canon.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That's because he _doesnt_, not against street - level people. This is simple logic.



Logic has nothing to do with it Mike. My logic tells me Cap cant throw a shield faster than the speed of sound to catch a missile but you think it's perfectly logical. 

So then all we need is a scan of him saying that he doesnt try against street level people, that way its canon.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That was when he first regained his powers and couldn't control them quite well, he caused sonic booms and a lot of damage. He was in a populated area  against someone who he wasn't using anywhere near his full power against. How is this even relevant, anyway? This has nothing to do with Gai or Cap. Start debating properly and find feats by Gai that compare to Cap's _regular, consistent_ performance.



I'm not debating Cap vs Gai Mike, i'm debating your logic. Whats the matter getting scared?? If your logic is right and mine wrong you should have no problem with this. This is just showing you how fast Flash is and how silly it is for him to job, which according to you is fine if it's for Cap, but for anyone else it's not.  



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That depends. What comic was it in? What form of Hulk was it? What were the circumstances?



Oh Mike it doesnt matter unless you want to do that for all the scans you provided. Why dont you stop dodging and answer the question. Should that be consider canon??



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Of course Firelord lost. However that can easily be rationalized (he completely underestimated Spidey and was using only a tiny fraction of his power). You just don't like to think logically so you don't come up with these things. It's hardly a common occurence, like Cap's feats.



Ah good. Since i'm sure you can find the scans you'll have no problem showing me the part where he says he'll use a tiny fraction of his powers. Cause the way i read it. Firelord just didnt want to use a wide area(AOE) attack to kill Spiderman. He wanted to kill him in personal combat. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yes I do, and it's not as impressive as what Cap can do. You know this, so you keep trying to make excuses to say Cap's feats shoudln't count, because you don't want your precious Gai to lose.



Ah yes my precious Gai, or your precious Cap. Either way i dont really care. Like i said i'm just trying to see how logical you are.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The fact that he can do it means that he is capable of it. You can't claim he's incapable of it, if he actually did it. That's completely illogical.



Nah, its called jobbing. You know like having a Jobber Aura. Either that or its generally dismissed. PIS. CIS. These are common terms Mike. Why can't they be used against Cap???? 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Because he's usually not trying to kill him....
> 
> Besides, Cap has taken those kinds of things and survived.



Oh!! So Ironman doesnt try and kill Cap. So this allows Cap to pretty much survive the match for a longer time than he should right???? I mean if Ironman wanted he could kill Cap quickly right????



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> For the last time, he's not peak human. He's clearly superhuman, he routinely does things that no real life human would ever be able to do.




*Spoiler*: __ 



*Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection*. He experienced a time when he was augmented to superhuman levels, but is no longer. Captain America has a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he has metabolized has enhanced all of his bodily functions to the *peak of human efficiency*. Most notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance.




Marvel calls him Peak Human. I will too.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That's actually inaccurate, since the Vibranium in his shield nullifies KE and momentum.



No no it was in comics so its canon Mike. Who cares what it should do. If it's shown in a comic its canon. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Loki uses magic, so that's somewhat more understandable.



It was a force blast, same as above.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> By what standard are those guys slow?



You mean you can prove they're fast!! Cant wait for this.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That doesn't even make sense. Cap can hold his own against people way stronger and tougher than Gai, and he has beaten people on Gai's level or higher. Therefore he can win.



No according to you it doesnt matter if Cap is faster or stronger. As you keep showing Cap clearly goes beyond his limits to defeat everyone. Why cant Gai do the same?? Is this a limitation on the Narutoverse??



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Translation: "Oh noes! Mike's views don't match with my preconcieved notion of how weak Cap should be, despite the fact that he routinely performs feats way above this level! However, since I'm always right, *Mike must just be delusional*!"



I like your translation however wrong they are. Well most of it anyways.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Some of them are. The missile feat definitely was. Some of them aren't. The fact is that he is capable of these things, whether you like it or not.



Which ones arent things you could see him doing all the time???


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:


> Ah So you dont have a scan of him saying that? Must not be canon then.



So you think it's logical that he would go FTL, speed - stealing, Infinite Mass Punch, speedforce dump, vibration attack, etc. against someone like Deathstroke? 



> *snip*
> 
> Here you go Mike. He moved the sword there faster than Flash could get to him. Hes faster than Flash



Are you an idiot? He moved the sword where he had predicted the Flash was going to be, and had set up his trap accordingly. Flash ran right into it.



> Oh so if you stay still Flash can't/won't steal your speed??? When was this mentioned?? You have a scan of this also, just so i know its canon.



 

WTF?

Do you even listen to yourself?

If you're aren't moving, then you don't even have speed to steal, at least not any speed that would be of consequence. If he stole his speed, he would still run into him, because he would still be in the same place.



> Logic has nothing to do with it Mike. My logic tells me Cap cant throw a shield faster than the speed of sound to catch a missile but you think it's perfectly logical.



Because it happened. It was never shown or stated that Flash goes all - out against street - levelers.



> So then all we need is a scan of him saying that he doesnt try against street level people, that way its canon.



Stop with the straw men. I never said he didn't try, just that he doesn't try nearly as much as he can. The mere fact that Deathstroke was able to move or think at all before Flash got to him proves that Flash wasn't going anywhere near full speed. The burden of proof is on you to prove he was.



> I'm not debating Cap vs Gai Mike, i'm debating your logic. Whats the matter getting scared?? If your logic is right and mine wrong you should have no problem with this. This is just showing you how fast Flash is and how silly it is for him to job, which according to you is fine if it's for Cap, but for anyone else it's not.



I'm not even sure what you're getting at, you're just spewing stupid bullshit and ignoring logic.



> Oh Mike it doesnt matter unless you want to do that for all the scans you provided. Why dont you stop dodging and answer the question. Should that be consider canon??



That's just it: I don't know! If it was retconned, or if it was a What If? or if it was in another timeline or reality, then it's not canon. Since I don't have any of this information, I can't tell you.



> Ah good. Since i'm sure you can find the scans you'll have no problem showing me the part where he says he'll use a tiny fraction of his powers. Cause the way i read it. Firelord just didnt want to use a wide area(AOE) attack to kill Spiderman. He wanted to kill him in personal combat.



It's called logic. Do you honestly believe that Firelord was using his full power, just because it was never stated he wasn't?

What is more logical: Firelord wasn't using anywhere near his full power and underestimating Spidey, or he was using his maximum power and Spidey still beat him? Obviously number 1. Just a simple application of Occam's Razor. You're getting more and more irrational by the second.



> Ah yes my precious Gai, or your precious Cap. Either way i dont really care. Like i said i'm just trying to see how logical you are.



Certainly moreso than you, who assumes Flash was going full speed against Deathstroke, or Firelord was using his full power against Spider-man, or that I know if a fight is canon or not without even knowing what comic it came from. 



> Nah, its called jobbing. You know like having a Jobber Aura. Either that or its generally dismissed. PIS. CIS. These are common terms Mike. Why can't they be used against Cap????



The whole "PIS" thing was invented by CBR idiots. It's almost never applicable, and is overused way too much, not to mention it completely violates suspension of disbelief. If character A does an incredible feat that should be way above them, you don't just ignore it, you try to make logical inferences as to how it could have happened, in - universe. If you can't, only then do you call PIS. Why do you think all of Cap's feats should be ignored, despite the fact that he does them consistently? You just underestimate him and have a preconcieved notion that he should be weak, and anything that conflicts with that notion you just dismiss, despite the fact that it is consistent.



> Oh!! So Ironman doesnt try and kill Cap. So this allows Cap to pretty much survive the match for a longer time than he should right???? I mean if Ironman wanted he could kill Cap quickly right????



If Tony was bloodlusted he would have a better success rate and easier success (such is usually the case for any character that is bloodlusted).



> *snip*
> 
> Marvel calls him Peak Human. I will too.



Yet this is contradicted by the comics themselves. The handbooks are rarely accurate since the comics are updated way more often. The handbooks are a lower canon material than the comics. You can't just ignore something that someone does in the comics if it doesn't fit with their handbook portrayal. For example, the handbooks say Thing is only class 85, yet he lifts things way, way heavier than 85 tons all the time. Do you just ignore all those incidents and say they don't count? If the comics contradict the handbooks, I go with the comics, the _true_ canon material.



> No no it was in comics so its canon Mike. Who cares what it should do. If it's shown in a comic its canon.



Then we have to find a rationalization (which is impossible right now since I don't have the scans and context). You don't understand the concept of rationalizations, they are explanations using logic to find a way to make two seemingly conflicting facts be compatible.



> It was a force blast, same as above.



Which was magic.



> You mean you can prove they're fast!! Cant wait for this.



Slow and fast are subjective terms, idiot. Slow compared to what?



> No according to you it doesnt matter if Cap is faster or stronger. As you keep showing Cap clearly goes beyond his limits to defeat everyone. Why cant Gai do the same?? Is this a limitation on the Narutoverse??



Cap isn't 'going beyond his limits', he's done these things, which means that, by definition, they are within his limit! I have shown you things Cap has actually done, show me things Gai has *actually done* that compare.



> I like your translation however wrong they are. Well most of it anyways.



You have yet to demonstrate that I'm wrong. You've just been whining and being stupid this whole time.



> Which ones arent things you could see him doing all the time???



In every fight he doesn't go all - out, but if he did he can do these kinds of things (however it would tire him quicker).


----------



## Hagen (Oct 23, 2006)

This thread is causing a revolution out there.
Is incredible how many people are pissed off just cause endless mike proved with solid evidence that Cap can defeat some Naruto characters. 
Now they are trying to bash the Cap with ridiculous battles and sarcastic posts just cause they cant admit defeat.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 23, 2006)

Locard said:


> This thread is causing a revolution out there.
> Is incredible how many people are pissed off just cause endless mike proved with solid evidence that Cap can defeat some Naruto characters.
> Now they are trying to bash the Cap with ridiculous battles and sarcastic posts just cause they cant admit defeat.



Hey what's that brown thing on your nose?


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 23, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> So you think it's logical that he would go FTL, speed - stealing, Infinite Mass Punch, speedforce dump, vibration attack, etc. against someone like Deathstroke?



Yes 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Are you an idiot? He moved the sword where he had predicted the Flash was going to be, and had set up his trap accordingly. Flash ran right into it.



How do you know what he predicted. Did he tell you he predicted that spot. He predicted Flash going around the blast but you cant predict where he's going on the left or right side. He simply put the sword up faster than the Flash could see so hes fast than the Flash



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> WTF?
> 
> Do you even listen to yourself?
> 
> If you're aren't moving, then you don't even have speed to steal, at least not any speed that would be of consequence. If he stole his speed, he would still run into him, because he would still be in the same place.



If he did steal it he wouldnt have been able to move at all Mike. Like he has done to other people. If you are apart of the speed force he can make you a statue correct



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Because it happened. It was never shown or stated that Flash goes all - out against street - levelers.



Ok then. Since you cant prove hes goes slower against street levelers i'll assume he goes at the same rate as always.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Stop with the straw men. I never said he didn't try, just that he doesn't try nearly as much as he can. The mere fact that Deathstroke was able to move or think at all before Flash got to him proves that Flash wasn't going anywhere near full speed. The burden of proof is on you to prove he was.



Hmmm let me see. If i was the Flash and had dealt with Deathstroke before(meaning i knew how fast he was) do you think i'd go at a slower speed than what he can react to??

You do know what your saying is what i'm trying to prove to you. Showing Cap vs Spiderman/Beast doesnt mean much because like Flash to Deathstroke its called Jobbing. But to you thats called consistancy for Cap 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I'm not even sure what you're getting at, you're just spewing stupid bullshit and ignoring logic.



Did i hurt your feelings???



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That's just it: I don't know! If it was retconned, or if it was a What If? or if it was in another timeline or reality, then it's not canon. Since I don't have any of this information, I can't tell you.



So i can say all your scans have been retconned and you couldnt refute this?? Mine happened in continuity. Recently.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> It's called logic. Do you honestly believe that Firelord was using his full power, just because it was never stated he wasn't?
> 
> What is more logical: Firelord wasn't using anywhere near his full power and underestimating Spidey, or he was using his maximum power and Spidey still beat him? Obviously number 1. Just a simple application of Occam's Razor. You're getting more and more irrational by the second.



He never stated he was using a tiny fraction of his power Mike. I know what it's called, Jobbing. But the reason it seems so irrational is because i'm using your logic that whatever appears on print is canon and should never be questioned.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Certainly moreso than you, who assumes Flash was going full speed against Deathstroke, or Firelord was using his full power against Spider-man, or that I know if a fight is canon or not without even knowing what comic it came from.



So then do you think Beast/Spiderman were going all out against Cap??  



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The whole "PIS" thing was invented by CBR idiots. It's almost never applicable, and is overused way too much, not to mention it completely violates suspension of disbelief. If character A does an incredible feat that should be way above them, you don't just ignore it, you try to make logical inferences as to how it could have happened, in - universe. If you can't, only then do you call PIS. Why do you think all of Cap's feats should be ignored, despite the fact that he does them consistently? You just underestimate him and have a preconcieved notion that he should be weak, and anything that conflicts with that notion you just dismiss, despite the fact that it is consistent.



So logically how could Cap throw a Shield fast enough to catch a missile Mike. Saying hes Superhuman wont do it. Hell if you could show me him doing that 5 more times i would agree with you. Once is not enough. Was he enhanced at that time Mike. Is he enhanced now?? 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> If Tony was bloodlusted he would have a better success rate and easier success (such is usually the case for any character that is bloodlusted).



Concession accepted



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yet this is contradicted by the comics themselves. The handbooks are rarely accurate since the comics are updated way more often. The handbooks are a lower canon material than the comics. You can't just ignore something that someone does in the comics if it doesn't fit with their handbook portrayal. For example, the handbooks say Thing is only class 85, yet he lifts things way, way heavier than 85 tons all the time. Do you just ignore all those incidents and say they don't count? If the comics contradict the handbooks, I go with the comics, the _true_ canon material.



Mike if marvel calls him Peak Human i will to. Everyone knows that CL??? doesnt mean thats your limit. Just like everyone knows about PIS. CIS. or Jobbing.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Then we have to find a rationalization (which is impossible right now since I don't have the scans and context). You don't understand the concept of rationalizations, they are explanations using logic to find a way to make two seemingly conflicting facts be compatible.



Rationalizing doesnt work. I tried to tell you Cap throwing his shield faster than the speed of sound isnt rational but your unwilling to come to terms so i will be too. Therefore this happened and is canon



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Which was magic.



Doesnt matter, still had KE to absorb and it didnt happen.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Slow and fast are subjective terms, idiot. Slow compared to what?



Fast compare to your terms Mike. Just tell me how fast they are. Stop dodging.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Cap isn't 'going beyond his limits', he's done these things, which means that, by definition, they are within his limit! I have shown you things Cap has actually done, show me things Gai has *actually done* that compare.



You cant compare lol. They dont have tractors for Gai to rip apart. They dont have missiles for Gai to run upto and catch. There are no helicopters for Gai to shoot down. Gai really hasnt fought anyone besides the Kisame Clone and that was ended in Gate 5, their was nothing he could do. Thats what people like Gunshin mean when they say all you have to do is show a coulpe scans here or there. What could i show you Gai doing besides Speedblitzing an enemy that you will simply say isnt that fast.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You have yet to demonstrate that I'm wrong. You've just been whining and being stupid this whole time.



I'm fine with that



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> In every fight he doesn't go all - out, but if he did he can do these kinds of things (however it would tire him quicker).



So then none of these scans are Cap's avg therefore he wouldnt be doing this and thus would get overwhelmed and beated


----------



## Darklyre (Oct 23, 2006)

Actually, I think Deathstroke said something along the lines of "So predictable" after Flash ran into his sword.


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 23, 2006)

The new rule for comics should be this:

*"You must specificaly state which writer you are using when entering a comic character into the battledome. All scans or feats used must be by the same writer, in the same timeline, and in the same universe."*


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 23, 2006)

> "You must specificaly state which writer you are using when entering a comic character into the battledome. All scans or feats used must be by the same writer, in the same timeline, and in the same universe."



That's already a problem. Not everyone will know what feat has been done in what era under which writer.

Just distuiguish by eras. Like post-Crisis Superman and Pre-Crisis Superman.

For Captain America, distuiguish between Golden/Silver Age with Modern Age.


----------



## Mangekyō (Oct 23, 2006)

I say Gai takes this, Speed, Agility, Jutsu, Strength Im not saying Cap isnt good though, hes definently a challenge


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 23, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> That's already a problem. Not everyone will know what feat has been done in what era under which writer.
> 
> Just distuiguish by eras. Like post-Crisis Superman and Pre-Crisis Superman.
> 
> For Captain America, distuiguish between Golden/Silver Age with Modern Age.


If someone has scans of a character, they should have a scan of the fron cover which usually has the authors name. It would make comic characters more consistant and as a result, people pushing a comic character won't hear people complain about comic characters are inconsistant.


Example of what I propose:

*post scan of amazing spiderman 534*

*Captain America by J. Micael Stracynski can beat Spiderman in h2h. Therefore, he should be able to dodge all of Ty Lee's attacks.*

Well... if i'm supporting Ty Lee, how can I argue with that? I can't say: "Thats not how Captain America usually performs." I have to accept it. And i'd have no problem accepting it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:


> Yes



Then you have absolutely no ground to attack me for being illogical, you hypocrite. Why would he do all of that against a street - level person? Why? That would be massive overkill. 



> How do you know what he predicted. Did he tell you he predicted that spot. He predicted Flash going around the blast but you cant predict where he's going on the left or right side. He simply put the sword up faster than the Flash could see so hes fast than the Flash



You're just being stupid now. It was made clear in the comic that he led Flash into a trap where he would run into the sword.



> If he did steal it he wouldnt have been able to move at all Mike. Like he has done to other people. If you are apart of the speed force he can make you a statue correct



Of course, but what you're not getting is that _that wouldn't have helped_. Flash ran into him, not the other way around. If Flash tried to steal his speed, he would have been frozen, but the sword would still be there, and Flash would still run into it.



> Ok then. Since you cant prove hes goes slower against street levelers i'll assume he goes at the same rate as always.



That's fucking idiotic! He doesn't always move at the same speed, he only goes lightspeed and above against really powerful threats. This is common sense. I don't have to prove anything, you're asking me to prove a negative. You prove that he goes all - out against everyone. Burden of proof is on you.



> Hmmm let me see. If i was the Flash and had dealt with Deathstroke before(meaning i knew how fast he was) do you think i'd go at a slower speed than what he can react to??



He was moving at a faster speed than Deathstroke could react, but *Deathstroke had set up a trap that set Flash on a predetermined path.*.

Did you even read the fight?



> You do know what your saying is what i'm trying to prove to you. Showing Cap vs Spiderman/Beast doesnt mean much because like Flash to Deathstroke its called Jobbing. But to you thats called consistancy for Cap



Because it *IS* consistent! He does that kind of stuff all the time. There's no 'jobbing' involved. Flash just wasn't going all - out and fell for a trap. That's a much more logical explanation than saying 'This happened, but it really didn't happen because it shouldn't have happened'.



> Did i hurt your feelings???



Stupidity doesn't hurt my feelings, it just gets me annoyed.



> So i can say all your scans have been retconned and you couldnt refute this?? Mine happened in continuity. Recently.



No, you would have to prove it. If you make a claim, you have to back it up. And you still haven't told me what comic it was in and what the circumstances were.



> He never stated he was using a tiny fraction of his power Mike. I know what it's called, Jobbing. But the reason it seems so irrational is because i'm using your logic that whatever appears on print is canon and should never be questioned.



If something happened, and it's canon, then *IT HAPPENED*. There's no getting around that. If it doesn't make sense, we have to find a rationalization, a way that it could make sense. Even if these rationalizations are somewhat speculation, if they are consistent with the fact and cover the discrepency, they make much more sense than saying that it just didn't happen when it clearly did. It's called logic.



> So then do you think Beast/Spiderman were going all out against Cap??



Depends on the fight in question. Normally they wouldn't be, since they wouldn't really be trying to kill him, but if there were certain circumstances where they were, then they would be. However, to turn the tables around against you, I know _for a fact _that Kisame wasn't going all - out against Gai (he was only at 30%).



> So logically how could Cap throw a Shield fast enough to catch a missile Mike. Saying hes Superhuman wont do it. Hell if you could show me him doing that 5 more times i would agree with you. Once is not enough. Was he enhanced at that time Mike. Is he enhanced now??



Why won't the superhuman explanation suffice? Because you say so? The comics show he's superhuman, it's a fact. Unless you think actual humans in real life can do the things he does. And why 5 times? Why do you get to decide how many times he needs to do something for it to count? Gai only used Asa Kujaku once, does that mean he can't really do it? 



> Concession accepted



I never gave you a concession. I never said Cap could beat Iron Man in a true fight to the death, or even most fights under most circumstances. Merely that he could hold out for a while. Which is supported by canon.



> Mike if marvel calls him Peak Human i will to. Everyone knows that CL??? doesnt mean thats your limit. Just like everyone knows about PIS. CIS. or Jobbing.



"Everyone knows"? That's a fallacy. Name every single person that constitutes "everyone" and then you might have a case.

Certainly there's an error where a guy who's supposed to be class 85 lifts things weighing thousands of tons. The comics are the true canon. They show Cap to be superhuman. Deal with it. Unless you actually think real - life humans can do the feats I've shown him doing.



> Rationalizing doesnt work. I tried to tell you Cap throwing his shield faster than the speed of sound isnt rational but your unwilling to come to terms so i will be too. Therefore this happened and is canon



Yes, him throwing the shield and hitting the missile happened and it's canon. It may be a high - end feat for him, but it's within his ability since he did it. He is simply that powerful, and has many times shown himself to be. However, that doesn't mean you can take any random occurence from any comic and state that it means someone is way more powerful than they actually are when a more logical explanation is available. Rationalizing is a much better and more logical method than saying that something that is canon didn't actually happen.



> Doesnt matter, still had KE to absorb and it didnt happen.



Of course it matters. Magic has strange properties, we don't know how it was working that time. It's much more logical to say that a special magical effect KO'd cap than to say that his shield simply failed to work the way it was supposed to. Occam's razor.



> Fast compare to your terms Mike. Just tell me how fast they are. Stop dodging.



How fast those two are? Significantly faster than a normal human.



> You cant compare lol. They dont have tractors for Gai to rip apart. They dont have missiles for Gai to run upto and catch. There are no helicopters for Gai to shoot down. Gai really hasnt fought anyone besides the Kisame Clone and that was ended in Gate 5, their was nothing he could do. Thats what people like Gunshin mean when they say all you have to do is show a coulpe scans here or there. What could i show you Gai doing besides Speedblitzing an enemy that you will simply say isnt that fast.



It was 6 gates, and this is a real concession to accept. You just admitted that Gai has no feats to beat out Cap. You must have realized this right at the start and that's why you're engaged in all this dishonest bullshitting. Just cut it out and concede the debate with honor.



> So then none of these scans are Cap's avg therefore he wouldnt be doing this and thus would get overwhelmed and beated



That depends on how you define 'average'. Lots of them are things he does all the time. However that doesn't mean he's incapable of doing these things, because he has done them. Sure, if Cap was holding back and not using his full strength he would likely lose. However it's a fallacy to assume Cap will fight at a weaker level than he can just because you want him to, and Gai will fight at full power.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 23, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> The new rule for comics should be this:
> 
> *"You must specificaly state which writer you are using when entering a comic character into the battledome. All scans or feats used must be by the same writer, in the same timeline, and in the same universe."*



That's idiotic. Comics are written by tons of different writers, yet many of their comics are all canon to each other. What we use is the official canon policy. This seems like a biased rule to give manga an unfair advantage.


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 23, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> That's idiotic. Comics are written by tons of different writers, yet many of their comics are all canon to each other. What we use is the official canon policy. This seems like a biased rule to give manga an unfair advantage.


No, its a fair rule that removes the inconsistancy of American Comics caused by a large quantity of writers who contradict each other. Of course i'd expect you to be against this since you seem very comic biased.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 23, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> No, its a fair rule that removes the inconsistancy of American Comics caused by a large quantity of writers who contradict each other. Of course i'd expect you to be against this since you seem very comic biased.



Appeal to motive fallacy.

We use the official canon policy, not make up our own. That is obvious. Using a character under only one writer isolates them from the vast majority of their history and feats, and majorly weakens every character this method would be used for. It's a biased rule that no logical person would ever think of implementing. We have to use each franchise's official canon policy.


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 23, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Appeal to motive fallacy.
> 
> We use the official canon policy, not make up our own. That is obvious.


You act as if "official cannon" policy is the "official battledome" rules. Rules are made by people. We are the people. 



> Using a character under only one writer isolates them from the vast majority of their history and feats, and majorly weakens every character this method would be used for.


You didn't even answer my question. Will it remove inconsistancy? Yes or no? Give a reason with your answer.



> It's a biased rule that no logical person would ever think of implementing. We have to use each franchise's official canon policy.


You bring up fallacy yet throw one out yourself. Do you want me to name the fallacy used for this quote?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 23, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> You act as if "official cannon" policy is the "official battledome" rules. Rules are made by people. We are the people.



If you choose to use a different canon policy that what is official by the franchise, then you are not debating the actual material and canon, you're debating your own version of it, which has no bearing on the true canon material. 



> You didn't even answer my question. Will it remove inconsistancy? Yes or no? Give a reason with your answer.



Possibly, but there are much better ways to deal with inconsistency. This is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, curing the disease by killing the patient.



> You bring up fallacy yet throw one out yourself. Do you want me to name the fallacy used for this quote?



Then explain how it makes logical sense to make up your own canon policy in defiance with the official one, and make it just to weaken the characters.


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 23, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> If you choose to use a different canon policy that what is official by the franchise, then you are not debating the actual material and canon, you're debating your own version of it, which has no bearing on the true canon material.


Well the "true canon" material is inconsistant. When you use all the material of the multiple writers that write Marvel/DC, the battles become "who can show more inconsistant feats!!" rather than a character vs a character battle. For instance.. Spiderman vs.. mmm... Alucard.


*Spoiler*: __ 




Guy#1: Spiderman can beat Alucard from Hellsing.

Guy#2: Yeah right. Alucard took out an army by himself. He's leagues above Spiderman.

Guy #1: Is that so? Hahaha! LOL @ You. Spiderman beat Firelord! 

Guy #2: Dude, Spiderman does not consistantly perform like that.

Guy #1: Canon is canon buddy. I win. You lose.

Guy #2: Aww.. man.. thats f'ing cheap...




Now.. under the rules I propose:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Guy #1: Spiderman can beat Alucard from Hellsing.

Guy #2: Yeah right. Alucard defeated two armies by himself.

Guy #1: Well Spiderman by Tom DeFalco beat a cosmic in Fire Lord.

Guy #2: Oh man.. well I guess that Spiderman can beat Alucard. But what about another?




You get consistency and canon. 



> Possibly, but there are much better ways to deal with inconsistency. This is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, curing the disease by killing the patient.


I disagree. I think this methood maintains consistency and use of canon.



> Then explain how it makes logical sense to make up your own canon policy in defiance with the official one, and make it just to weaken the characters.


I already gave the logic behind it. Marvel/DC comics are generaly written by several writers with different ideas and views towards a character. This fact causes mass inconsistency which turns battles between characters into "who can find more inconsistencies that help make their character win" (ignoring any inconsistencies that weaken their character). This rule will not weaken comic characters. They'll still retain their feats. The only difference is that you won't be able to combine them with the feats of other writers. This will make fair consistant battles.

Something like this wouldn't be necessary if the writers would work with each other and follow a strict guideline. Instead, one writer will say: "Hmm.. Wolverine's head can be cut off.." and then you'll have another witer thinking: "Hmmm... I think i'll make it where Wolverine's spine is connected to his head by adamantium... so it can't be cut off."


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> Well the "true canon" material is inconsistant. When you use all the material of the multiple writers that write Marvel/DC, the battles become "who can show more inconsistant feats!!"



Inconsistencies can be rationalized. It hardly makes more sense to just ignore 90% of a character's history.




> rather than a character vs a character battle. For instance.. Spiderman vs.. mmm... Alucard.
> 
> Guy#1: Spiderman can beat Alucard from Hellsing.
> 
> ...



Then guy 1 would be being an idiot, since it's obvious that that was a fluke and Firelord wasn't using anywhere near his full power. That's completely different from Cap doing things consistently superhuman.



> Now.. under the rules I propose:
> 
> Guy #1: Spiderman can beat Alucard from Hellsing.
> 
> ...



That's the problem. You're taking one character and splitting them up into dozens, even hundreds of characters. That is too confusing, and too annoying to keep track of, and it is not a true representation of the overall power of a character.



> You get consistency and canon.



No, you get bullshit and non - canon, since it's different from the true canon policy.



> I disagree. I think this methood maintains consistency and use of canon.



Then you would be wrong. It's a horrible idea, it isolates a character from 99% of their history, and ignores crucial points in the storylines which are completely consistent.



> I already gave the logic behind it. Marvel/DC comics are generaly written by several writers with different ideas and views towards a character. This fact causes mass inconsistency which turns battles between characters into "who can find more inconsistencies that help make their character win" (ignoring any inconsistencies that weaken their character).



Strawman. I showed consistent, solid feats that Cap performed, and he performs feats like this all the time. Zerkage is just being a sore loser.




> This rule will not weaken comic characters. They'll still retain their feats. The only difference is that you won't be able to combine them with the feats of other writers. This will make fair consistant battles.



No, they'll lose 99% of their feats, and it will be ridiculous to keep track of using 1000 different versions of the same character, it will confuse people, and it will ignore the way the characters were meant to be seen, as one single character. Inconsistencies can be rationalized with logic, this idea is just horrible.



> Something like this wouldn't be necessary if the writers would work with each other and follow a strict guideline. Instead, one writer will say: "Hmm.. Wolverine's head can be cut off.." and then you'll have another witer thinking: "Hmmm... I think i'll make it where Wolverine's spine is connected to his head by adamantium... so it can't be cut off."



Problem is you have decades of history and thousands of writers, a little difficult to keep track of. Still, it's mostly consistent, and what is not consistent can usually be rationalized.


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 24, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Inconsistencies can be rationalized. It hardly makes more sense to just ignore 90% of a character's history.


The problem is that everyone rationalizes differently.



> Then guy 1 would be being an idiot, since it's obvious that that was a fluke and Firelord wasn't using anywhere near his full power.



See? This contradicts with:



> No, you get bullshit and non - canon, since it's different from the true canon policy.
> 
> Then you would be wrong. It's a horrible idea, it isolates a character from 99% of their history, and ignores crucial points in the storylines which are completely consistent.



You can use your own rationale and call it a "fluke"... his rationale could differ and in the end "canon" and "official canon policy" is on his side. He wins.



> That's completely different from Cap doing things consistently superhuman.


No, it's very similar. For example, you used the biggest CIS'ing jobber in Marvel history, Quicksilver, as an example of how Captain America can own people who move at the speed of sound. That simply is not consistent with his usual showings. It contradicts everytime he's been hit by people who move at normal/above average human speed. The same thing goes with Captain America vs Spider Man.



> That's the problem. You're taking one character and splitting them up into dozens, even hundreds of characters. That is too confusing, and too annoying to keep track of, and it is not a true representation of the overall power of a character.


One can also say that using multiple writers conflicting views are not a true representation of their character. In fact, i'd say it makes more sense. Writer A and Writer B did not work together or cooperate. Why should we mix their works?



> Strawman. I showed consistent, solid feats that Cap performed, and he performs feats like this all the time. Zerkage is just being a sore loser.


You showed Captain America handling Quickjobber with ease.



> No, they'll lose 99% of their feats, and it will be ridiculous to keep track of using 1000 different versions of the same character, it will confuse people, and it will ignore the way the characters were meant to be seen, as one single character. Inconsistencies can be rationalized with logic, this idea is just horrible.


They'll keep 100% of their feats as shown by that writer under his and his vision only. 



> Problem is you have decades of history and thousands of writers, a little difficult to keep track of. Still, it's mostly consistent, and what is not consistent can usually be rationalized.


And you also have decades of inconsistency. Captain America beating the crap out of Spiderman? Spiderman over Firelord? Come on. And please stop saying "it can be rationalized" because then you would be making your own canon rules for "official canon" policy.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> The problem is that everyone rationalizes differently.



You don't get it. Rationalizations are to resolve the 'inconsitencies' you're complaining about. A logical one removes the whole problem.



> See? This contradicts with:
> 
> 
> 
> You can use your own rationale and call it a "fluke"... his rationale could differ and in the end "canon" and "official canon policy" is on his side. He wins.



No, because it obviously doesn't represent 99.99999999999% of both characters' showings. So something must be wrong. That's where we come up with a rationalization (Firelord underestimated him and held back). That allows it to reconcile. It's still canon, there's just an explanation for it.



> No, it's very similar. For example, you used the biggest CIS'ing jobber in Marvel history, Quicksilver, as an example of how Captain America can own people who move at the speed of sound.



Strawman. I never claimed that. I simply said he can react to them and dodge them somewhat.



> That simply is not consistent with his usual showings. It contradicts everytime he's been hit by people who move at normal/above average human speed. The same thing goes with Captain America vs Spider Man.



So you think someone who is able to dodge people moving at super speed should never be able to be hit by anyone slower, no matter the circumstances? That's a completely unrealistic expectation and it wouldn't hold true in a real - life scenario either. Some real - life martial artists can dodge arrows, but still get hit in HtH with humans, who are much slower than arrows. Just one example.



> One can also say that using multiple writers conflicting views are not a true representation of their character. In fact, i'd say it makes more sense. Writer A and Writer B did not work together or cooperate. Why should we mix their works?



Because they are part of the same canon material, officially declared to be canon by the franchise owner, and it is the same character, in the same universe and storylines. Many fictional universes have multiple writers, and all of their works are canon together, it's common.



> You showed Captain America handling Quickjobber with ease.



False. I merely showed him dodging him and reacting to his attack. I never showed him beating Pietro. Stop lying or I'll report you.



> They'll keep 100% of their feats as shown by that writer under his and his vision only.



Which is not the total story of the character, and misses the most important parts. Say you're arguing Thanos under a writer other than Starlin. That means the pivotal Infinity Gauntlet saga and Thanos Quest are left out, and those two stories basically define his character, it's a completely different character you're arguing now, and not the true Thanos at all.



> And you also have decades of inconsistency. Captain America beating the crap out of Spiderman?



I never posted any such thing.



> Spiderman over Firelord?



Already explained.



> Come on. And please stop saying "it can be rationalized" because then you would be making your own canon rules for "official canon" policy.



Um, no I'm not. Do you even know what canon and rationalization are? Rationalizing is not declaring things non - canon or other things canon, it's coming up with logical explanations for how unlikely canon events could have happened.


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 24, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> You don't get it. Rationalizations are to resolve the 'inconsitencies' you're complaining about. A logical one removes the whole problem.


They differ. For example, how do you rationalize Slade stabbing Flash with a sword? You can come up with some theory using rationale. You keep on saying "we can", but people can rationalize differently. And hey.. *sometimes you CANNOT even rationalize because it makes no sense.*

Specifying the writer will get rid of both cases.



> No, because it obviously doesn't represent 99.99999999999% of both characters' showings. So something must be wrong. That's where we come up with a rationalization (Firelord underestimated him and held back). That allows it to reconcile. It's still canon, there's just an explanation for it.


But was underestimation really the case? You can't prove it. And everyone's rationale is influenced by their bias. 



> Strawman. I never claimed that. I simply said he can react to them and dodge them somewhat.


Which doesn't make sense. I'd love for you to explain what that writer showed. Keep in mind that Quicksilver can think at the speed he moves.



> So you think someone who is able to dodge people moving at super speed should never be able to be hit by anyone slower, no matter the circumstances?


I like how you added "the circumstances". Gives you a little technicality to work with. Sure. Under specific circumstances a person who can dodge, and defeat a person faster than sound can be hit by someone slower. However, those would have to be really specific circumstances like if someone Captain America cared about was held hostage. However, in any 1 on 1 situation, Captain America should be able to dodge any blow under a speedster.



> That's a completely unrealistic expectation and it wouldn't hold true in a real - life scenario either. Some real - life martial artists can dodge arrows, but still get hit in HtH with humans, who are much slower than arrows. Just one example.


Horrible example. Dodging an arrow that you know is coming towards you in a straight line does not equal super human speed. It means the martial artist understands that the arrow goes in a straight line. And that once it gets moving he needs to move out of its projectory.

I'd like for you to explain the science of how a man can defeat a guy who can *think* and *move* at the speed of sound. Keep in mind that Quicksilver is not an arrow.



> Because they are part of the same canon material, officially declared to be canon by the franchise owner, and it is the same character, in the same universe and storylines. Many fictional universes have multiple writers, and all of their works are canon together, it's common.


I'm tempted to play your game and cite the fallacy, but i'm above that.  Wether its common or not doesn't make my argument anymore less meaningful. 

The fact remains: All the writers have different views on characters, their strengths, their weakness, what can hurt them, what can't, what they should be able to accomplish, and what they cannot. 



> False. I merely showed him dodging him and reacting to his attack. I never showed him beating Pietro. Stop lying or I'll report you.


Report me? lol. Now you're trying to threaten me? And did I ever say "you showed him beating Pietro"? I said you showed a scan of Captain America *handling* Quicksilver. "Reacting"? Please put up the scan again for all to see. 

Sad that you have to try to bully someone from disagreeing with you. Taking my words out of context and then threatening to "report" me? Dirty.



> Which is not the total story of the character, and misses the most important parts. Say you're arguing Thanos under a writer other than Starlin. That means the pivotal Infinity Gauntlet saga and Thanos Quest are left out, and those two stories basically define his character, it's a completely different character you're arguing now, and not the true Thanos at all.


You can still use the Thanos during the Infinite gauntlet. 



> I never posted any such thing.


Did I claim you did? Trying to collect evidence so you can "report" me? I guess i'll stop here before I get banned...


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 24, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> *snip* That would be massive overkill.



Because hes being consistant, just like Cap. All i'd have to do is show you 2 scans of him going a certain speed and that would be his consistant speed. Or atleast thats what your telling me.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You're just being stupid now. It was made clear in the comic that he led Flash into a trap where he would run into the sword.



Into a trap to get him to aproach from the back where he would stab him. There is no possible way to know if he would have came from the left of right unless he was faster than Flash. Deathstroke being faster than the Flash is PIS/CIS. Whether you like it or not.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> *snip* If Flash tried to steal his speed, he would have been frozen, but the sword would still be there, and Flash would still run into it.



It would have helped if he did it right off the bat instead of Jobbing into a sword. But you know since it was shown in a comics its legit right.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That's fucking idiotic! He doesn't always move at the same speed, he only goes lightspeed and above against really powerful threats. This is common sense. I don't have to prove anything, you're asking me to prove a negative. You prove that he goes all - out against everyone. Burden of proof is on you.



I'm not asking you to prove a negative. I'm saying he was running at his avg speed and he jobbed. Your just assuming he was going slower because he fought Deathstroke. When you have no proof of that. 

Silly isnt it. So why is it ok to say Cap is 80% of Spidermans speed but not ok to say Deathstroke is 80% Flash's speed??? That is all i can conclude from that comic




			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He was moving at a faster speed than Deathstroke could react, but *Deathstroke had set up a trap that set Flash on a predetermined path.*.
> 
> Did you even read the fight?



No he wasnt. If he was moving at a speed faster than Deathstroke could react to he wouldnt had been able to react to it in the first place. Did you read the fight???



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Because it *IS* consistent! He does that kind of stuff all the time. There's no 'jobbing' involved. Flash just wasn't going all - out and fell for a trap. That's a much more logical explanation than saying 'This happened, but it really didn't happen because it shouldn't have happened'.



Is this consistancy???


Shield throw missed


Knocked out in one punch


80% of Spidermans speed would have dodged this


Beast fast enough to steal a girl from his hands. Caps faster than sound throwing skills mean nothing.


Mr. Hyde catchs the speeding Shield faster than the speed of sound



Human quick enough to tag Cap



Clicky
Shield miss/tagged by Nick Fury,Hes not even peak human

this one
Shot in the shoulder...how can he be faster than bullets if he didnt see and dodge it??


Daredevil deflecting the shield


Assaulted by Daredevil




			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Stupidity doesn't hurt my feelings, it just gets me annoyed.



Ah i see



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> No, you would have to prove it. If you make a claim, you have to back it up. And you still haven't told me what comic it was in and what the circumstances were.


First you'd have to tell me what comic all your scans are from and the circumstances since you posted first. Then i will. And also prove the missile was going faster than the speed of sound. How do i know that missile is faster than the speed of sound.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> If something happened, and it's canon, then *IT HAPPENED*. There's no getting around that. If it doesn't make sense, we have to find a rationalization, a way that it could make sense. Even if these rationalizations are somewhat speculation, if they are consistent with the fact and cover the discrepency, they make much more sense than saying that it just didn't happen when it clearly did. It's called logic.



So your saying its logical for Spiderman to beat Firelord



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Depends on the fight in question. Normally they wouldn't be, since they wouldn't really be trying to kill him, but if there were certain circumstances where they were, then they would be. However, to turn the tables around against you, I know _for a fact _that Kisame wasn't going all - out against Gai (he was only at 30%).



Yes, actually Kisame was trying to kill him. The only limitation in that fight was that he only had 30% of Kisames chakra. Other than that he was fighting to kill. So yes or no, were Beast and Spiderman fighting Cap all out??



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> *snip* Gai only used Asa Kujaku once, does that mean he can't really do it?



So you can't give a reason Mike?? Come on any reason why it should be logical. Anything like showing him doing it a few more times or someone stating he throws his shield that fast all the time. Really 5 times shouldnt be hard to find if he does it all the time Mike. Is 4 better for you??? 3?? 3 vs the amount of years he's been in comics is a very small percentage.

As far as Asa Kujaku goes, Gai has only been in one fight (that we saw) and in that fight he did it. Other then that your making no sense. From what Lee said (because he knew it was coming) it seems like he has done it before



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I never gave you a concession. I never said Cap could beat Iron Man in a true fight to the death, or even most fights under most circumstances. Merely that he could hold out for a while. Which is supported by canon.



20 second hold out must mean something good.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> "Everyone knows"? That's a fallacy. Name every single person that constitutes "everyone" and then you might have a case.
> 
> Certainly there's an error where a guy who's supposed to be class 85 lifts things weighing thousands of tons. The comics are the true canon. They show Cap to be superhuman. Deal with it. Unless you actually think real - life humans can do the feats I've shown him doing.



Major of people then, which is what i meant.

As for showing things in real life that Cap has done, no one in real life is peak human so thats pretty much impossible. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yes, him throwing the shield and hitting the missile happened and it's canon. It may be a high - end feat for him, but it's within his ability since he did it. He is simply that powerful, and has many times shown himself to be. However, that doesn't mean you can take any random occurence from any comic and state that it means someone is way more powerful than they actually are when a more logical explanation is available. Rationalizing is a much better and more logical method than saying that something that is canon didn't actually happen.



Then its also in Spidermans range of people to beat Hulk and Firelord. Deathstroke is faster than Flash. Silver Surfer will get KO'd by a Brick



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Of course it matters. Magic has strange properties, we don't know how it was working that time. It's much more logical to say that a special magical effect KO'd cap than to say that his shield simply failed to work the way it was supposed to. Occam's razor.



Nope no Occams razor. Force blast that wasnt absorbed. Its in comics dont challenge it.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> How fast those two are? Significantly faster than a normal human.



Would you say those to are faster than base Gai. If so how much faster 1x 2x 3x. If slower how much 1x 2x 3x



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> It was 6 gates, and this is a real concession to accept. You just admitted that Gai has no feats to beat out Cap. You must have realized this right at the start and that's why you're engaged in all this dishonest bullshitting. Just cut it out and concede the debate with honor.



I never said he doesnt have feats. I said he doesnt have missiles,tractors and helicopters to gauge his speed/strength and if i was to show you a speed feat like him dissappearing in front of Naruto,Sasuke,Lee,Sakura you'd just say,"nope Cap is still faster" Even tho Cap has never shown speed like that to trained speedy people



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That depends on how you define 'average'. Lots of them are things he does all the time. However that doesn't mean he's incapable of doing these things, because he has done them. Sure, if Cap was holding back and not using his full strength he would likely lose. However it's a fallacy to assume Cap will fight at a weaker level than he can just because you want him to, and Gai will fight at full power.



I'm not assuming anything. By average Gai > Cap in terms of speed/strength. Even Bloodlusted that remains true and Gai can make it more so with unleashing gates.


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 24, 2006)

Zerg.. all those pictures you showed can be rationilzed... Captain America wasn't trying. lol.

Seriously, like I said earlier, rationale is effected by bias.

See Endless Mike, under my system.. you can say:

"Captain America written by (insert name) can break semi-trucks with his shield. He can run faster than a car being thrown by a super strength creature. He can react at super speed. This version of Captain America can beat Gai."

And Zerg can say: "Well this Captain America written by (insert name) cannot destroy semi-trucks with his shield or react at super speeds. Gai can beat this Captain America."

Instead you get Zerg posting a lot of scans of Captain America that contradict yours. Furthermore, he showed scans of how Captain America usually performs. Now you lose. Under my system you both would have won.

And you said my idea was biased against comics...


----------



## lucky (Oct 24, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Well the Hulk can catch artillery shells which move faster than sound....
> 
> Anyway, if you want to see speed, look at this:
> 
> ...




this is great and all but ti's not really showing any real superspeed... quick as hell yah, but nothing batman hasn't done before (wiht an few exceptions).  More of it seems like strategic planning and movement... he's not *reactively* dodging bullets n stuff... he's moving in a way that would avoid being hit.  BIG diff. 


I'd have to give it to gai.  Physically, Captain america's skills are all peak human movement.  It's pretty freaking obvious that gai moves and fights at superhuman speed.  There hasn't been ONE example IIRC of captain american doing anything more physically strenuous than even what rock lee has done.  I've never seen him break a massive boulder wiht a punch.  Or hit an opponent 40 times by bouncing off walls before the opponent even lands.  Or moving too fast for the human eye to see.  


So after giving the nod to Gai on physical attributes, lets look at fighting skills.


Captain is obviously one of the more skilled h2h fighters in marvel U.  Gai (from what the manga has shown) is implied to be the most skilled taijutsu fighter in the naruto world.  It's all against captain america here... 


Hell i'd even say that gai can take on the entire bat team by himself. (minus their gadgets).


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 24, 2006)

lucky said:


> this is great and all but ti's not really showing any real superspeed... quick as hell yah, but nothing batman hasn't done before (wiht an few exceptions).  More of it seems like strategic planning and movement... he's not *reactively* dodging bullets n stuff... he's moving in a way that would avoid being hit.  BIG diff.
> 
> 
> I'd have to give it to gai.  Physically, Captain america's skills are all peak human movement.  It's pretty freaking obvious that gai moves and fights at superhuman speed.  There hasn't been ONE example IIRC of captain american doing anything more physically strenuous than even what rock lee has done.  I've never seen him break a massive boulder wiht a punch.  Or hit an opponent 40 times by bouncing off walls before the opponent even lands.  Or moving too fast for the human eye to see.
> ...



You're a sore loser  



			
				Gunshin said:
			
		

> Zerg.. all those pictures you showed can be rationilzed... Captain America wasn't trying. lol.
> 
> Seriously, like I said earlier, rationale is effected by bias.



That is the answer i will most likely get


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 24, 2006)

Well actually in hand to hand, I'll give it to Capt


----------



## lucky (Oct 24, 2006)

huh?  sore loser about waht?


----------



## earthshine (Oct 24, 2006)

Why the fuck is this still going?


Gai has EVERY possible advantage: is obviously faster than cap(ALL nins in naruto have superspeed, yet gai moves so fast that even they can't keep up), stronger than cap(pushed a guy through a thick, solid concrete wall), has massive fighting skills, and on top of all that, he has hax.



@EM: you said a while ago that cap and gai are about equal(horribly incorrect, but we will go with it), but failed to remember that gai can just turn on 6 gates and increase all his physical attributes by a gigantic amount. how will cap beat that? a direct hit from that peacock thing will end cap very quickly(and don't even go into dodging or blocking, as kisame, who was keeping up with if not exceeding gai's attack speed, could not even move a muscle before he got slammed)


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 24, 2006)

lucky said:
			
		

> huh?  sore loser about waht?



Its a joke dont be offended. If you are i apologize


----------



## lucky (Oct 24, 2006)

lol i'm not offended no worries... i jsut don't know what you're talking about haha... sa'll good.


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 24, 2006)

Oh, I've been called a sore loser in this thread many a times for thinking Gai wins. Or maybe it's because i'm being illogical. I'd like to think its for trying to convince someone Gai is better


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> They differ. For example, how do you rationalize Slade stabbing Flash with a sword? You can come up with some theory using rationale. You keep on saying "we can", but people can rationalize differently. And hey.. *sometimes you CANNOT even rationalize because it makes no sense.*



You can certainly do your best, and that's a much better explanation than simply saying that an event in question didn't happen.



> Specifying the writer will get rid of both cases.



And also make things ridiculously confusing, make debates impossible, remove 99% of a character's history and feats, be ignoring the official canon policy in favor of your own, which has no bearing on the true canon, and there will still be inconsistencies anyway.



> But was underestimation really the case? You can't prove it. And everyone's rationale is influenced by their bias.



No, but it's a logical explanation that fits the facts, and it makes much more sense than what you're proposing.



> Which doesn't make sense. I'd love for you to explain what that writer showed. Keep in mind that Quicksilver can think at the speed he moves.



Quicksilver attempted to tag him (and did), then Cap used his superhuman reflexes to react to it.



> I like how you added "the circumstances". Gives you a little technicality to work with. Sure. Under specific circumstances a person who can dodge, and defeat a person faster than sound can be hit by someone slower. However, those would have to be really specific circumstances like if someone Captain America cared about was held hostage. However, in any 1 on 1 situation, Captain America should be able to dodge any blow under a speedster.



Then that shows you know very little about the portrayal of characters in comics. Even extremely fast characters, like the Flash, Superman, and Silver Surfer are still tagged by slow people sometimes, for one reason or another.



> Horrible example. Dodging an arrow that you know is coming towards you in a straight line does not equal super human speed. It means the martial artist understands that the arrow goes in a straight line. And that once it gets moving he needs to move out of its projectory.
> 
> I'd like for you to explain the science of how a man can defeat a guy who can *think* and *move* at the speed of sound. Keep in mind that Quicksilver is not an arrow.



Strawman again. I never claimed or showed scans of Cap defeating him, just reacting to him.



> I'm tempted to play your game and cite the fallacy, but i'm above that.  Wether its common or not doesn't make my argument anymore less meaningful.
> 
> The fact remains: All the writers have different views on characters, their strengths, their weakness, what can hurt them, what can't, what they should be able to accomplish, and what they cannot.



Somewhat, but the disparity is not as great as you think. What should be done, logically, is attempt to reconcile all the inconsistencies into one consistent portrayal. This makes much more sense than separating the character out into thousands of different portrayals and attempting to keep track of all of them, while weakening the character completely and ignoring most of their history.



> Report me? lol. Now you're trying to threaten me? And did I ever say "you showed him beating Pietro"? I said you showed a scan of Captain America *handling* Quicksilver. "Reacting"? Please put up the scan again for all to see.
> 
> Sad that you have to try to bully someone from disagreeing with you. Taking my words out of context and then threatening to "report" me? Dirty.



You were being dishonest. You have repeatedly said that I showed scans of Cap beating Pietro (you even repeated it earlier in this very post, you said he 'defeated' him, no semantics weaseling out of this one). You lied.



> You can still use the Thanos during the Infinite gauntlet.



Not if you're discussing Thanos under a different writer than Starlin, because Starlin wrote Infinity Gauntlet.



> Did I claim you did? Trying to collect evidence so you can "report" me? I guess i'll stop here before I get banned...



You said "Captain America beating the crap out of Spider-man". You obviously were implying that I either had posted that happening, or believed that it would be likely to happen.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2006)

*I have cut off some of your message to meet the character limit*



> All i'd have to do is show you 2 scans of him going a certain speed and that would be his consistant speed. Or atleast thats what your telling me.



That feat by Deathstroke was not a speed feat, it was a prep feat. Furthermore, I never claimed that the scans I posted were the only examples in existence of Cap doing such feats, on the contrary, they're just a small sample. I just don't have scans of all of them. It's just a general idea of the kinds of things he can do. Cap has been around since the 40s, if I had to go by your standards of proof I would have to post scans of over 50% of his entire career, that would be probably too many scans to even fit on my hard drive. Surely you see how unreasonable a request that is, don't you?



> Into a trap to get him to aproach from the back where he would stab him. There is no possible way to know if he would have came from the left of right unless he was faster than Flash. Deathstroke being faster than the Flash is PIS/CIS. Whether you like it or not.



Did you even read the comic? He set the explosives up in a way to set Flash on a predetermined path directly into where Deathstroke predicted he would go, to his back, where he had his sword waiting for him. He wasn't faster.



> It would have helped if he did it right off the bat instead of Jobbing into a sword. But you know since it was shown in a comics its legit right.



How dense are you? The sword was already there. Stealing his speed wouldn't have made the sword disappear, and he would still run into it.



> I'm not asking you to prove a negative. I'm saying he was running at his avg speed and he jobbed. Your just assuming he was going slower because he fought Deathstroke. When you have no proof of that.
> 
> Silly isnt it. So why is it ok to say Cap is 80% of Spidermans speed but not ok to say Deathstroke is 80% Flash's speed??? That is all i can conclude from that comic



Then you're being an idiot. It's a logical explanation that fits the facts that Flash was going slow, it makes sense of the situation without ignoring any of the canon. That's called a rationalization. Also, you were asking me to prove a negative, you asked for scans or proof that Flash was not going all - out, and you still have to prove that he was, if that's what you think.



> No he wasnt. If he was moving at a speed faster than Deathstroke could react to he wouldnt had been able to react to it in the first place. Did you read the fight???



Use your brain. Deathstroke didn't match his reaction time, he set up a trap that led Flash on a predetermined path into a position where Deathstroke was already waiting for him. Slade didn't run, catch up to him, and stab him, he set up explosives that led Flash on a path into his back where the sword was waiting for him.



> Is this consistancy?
> Shield throw missed



Link's not loading. Besides, I never claimed he had perfect accuracy, so you have no point.



> Knocked out in one punch



By who? The link won't load.



> 80% of Spidermans speed would have dodged this



Considering that Spidey himself gets tagged by the Hulk, I don't see your point. It's a feat that he even survived that.



> Beast fast enough to steal a girl from his hands. Caps faster than sound throwing skills mean nothing.



Not loading.



> Mr. Hyde catchs the speeding Shield faster than the speed of sound



Not loading. Besides, I never claimed he always throws the shield that fast, just that he's capable of doing so. He doesn't throw it that fast every time, obviously.



> Human quick enough to tag Cap



First scan's not working. Who is it? Besides, I never claimed Cap could just dodge anything, just react to high speed attacks.



> Shield miss/tagged by Nick Fury,Hes not even peak human



These scans work against you, read the third one "with a speed the eye can barely follow". Cap is fast. Besides, it was stated in the very scans that he wasn't even fighting seriously, he was trying to just calm Nick down and subdue him. Nick is hardly a pushover himself either, he's a master of armed and unarmed combat and very strong



> Shot in the shoulder...how can he be faster than bullets if he didnt see and dodge it?



Because he was busy fighting at the time? I never claimed he had perfect dodging skills and never got hit, just that he was capable of dodging bullets (as I have shown).



> Daredevil deflecting the shield



And the shield rebound knocks back Hercules! This is hilarious, every time you try to discredit Cap, you end up actually demonstrating his power. Also, Daredevil is not exactly a weakling or slow.



> Assaulted by Daredevil



And? As I said, Daredevil is not exactly weak. Besides, in the very scans it says Cap wasn't expecting Daredevil to seriously try to hurt him and was taken by surprise.

Conclusion: Every character has low showings. That doesn't just make the high ones simply disappear. Most of what you posted is already consistent with what I posted, you just underestimated the characters that were getting the better of him. And a lot of the scans weren't even working.



> First you'd have to tell me what comic all your scans are from and the circumstances since you posted first. Then i will. And also prove the missile was going faster than the speed of sound. How do i know that missile is faster than the speed of sound.



You're right, it might not have been going faster than sound. However, it is still impressive.



> So your saying its logical for Spiderman to beat Firelord



Are you even paying attention? I'm saying it's more logical for Firelord to have underestimated Spider-man and only used a tiny fraction of his power, but then get beaten, than to just say that it didn't even happen when it clearly did.



> Yes, actually Kisame was trying to kill him. The only limitation in that fight was that he only had 30% of Kisames chakra. Other than that he was fighting to kill. So yes or no, were Beast and Spiderman fighting Cap all out?



Which means he was seriously weakened. Kisame at 100% fighting just to KO Gai and not kill him would be more likely to win than Kisame at 30% trying to kill him.

As for Beast and Spidey, it depends on the fight in question. There was one fight with a Spider-man robot that was trying to kill him, for example.



> So you can't give a reason Mike? Come on any reason why it should be logical. Anything like showing him doing it a few more times or someone stating he throws his shield that fast all the time. Really 5 times shouldnt be hard to find if he does it all the time Mike. Is 4 better for you? 3? 3 vs the amount of years he's been in comics is a very small percentage.



Yes, of course I'm going to go look through every Captain America comic ever published in the last 6 and a half decades, find each specific page where a feat like that happens, buy a scanner, scan it, and post it for you to see. 

Do you realize how unreasonable you're being?



> As far as Asa Kujaku goes, Gai has only been in one fight (that we saw) and in that fight he did it. Other then that your making no sense. From what Lee said (because he knew it was coming) it seems like he has done it before



But using your logic, since it only happened once, he can't really do it. You have to show him doing it at least 5 times or it doesn't count.



> 20 second hold out must mean something good.



He's lasted for much longer than that against those kind of people, and even 20 seconds would be longer that how long Gai could concievably last against Iron Man or Namor.



> Major of people then, which is what i meant.
> 
> As for showing things in real life that Cap has done, no one in real life is peak human so thats pretty much impossible.



So you think if someone worked out enough they could do all these things?



> Then its also in Spidermans range of people to beat Hulk and Firelord. Deathstroke is faster than Flash. Silver Surfer will get KO'd by a Brick



*sigh* this is hopeless. You're not even listening to what I'm saying.



> Nope no Occams razor. Force blast that wasnt absorbed. Its in comics dont challenge it.



I'm not. I'm simply coming up with an explanation that reconciles the two conflicting facts. It was a magical blast of unknown properties, magic can have strange effects, so therefore it somehow bypassed the vibranium and KO'd him. When you have two facts or events that contradict each other, you don't just ignore one of them, you try to find an explanation for how they could have both happened.



> Would you say those to are faster than base Gai. If so how much faster 1x 2x 3x. If slower how much 1x 2x 3x



I'm not sure. Any number I throw out would just be a guess, and not even an educated one.



> I never said he doesnt have feats. I said he doesnt have missiles,tractors and helicopters to gauge his speed/strength and if i was to show you a speed feat like him dissappearing in front of Naruto,Sasuke,Lee,Sakura you'd just say,"nope Cap is still faster" Even tho Cap has never shown speed like that to trained speedy people



False, I never claimed Cap is so much faster, in fact in moving speed (travelling) he is likely quite a bit slower, it's reaction speed and shield - throwing speed where he excels.



> I'm not assuming anything. By average Gai > Cap in terms of speed/strength. Even Bloodlusted that remains true and Gai can make it more so with unleashing gates.



You have yet to prove this, I've provided tons of evidence against it, but you're desperate to just arbitrarily decide that all of my evidence doesn't count.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> Zerg.. all those pictures you showed can be rationilzed... Captain America wasn't trying. lol.
> 
> Seriously, like I said earlier, rationale is effected by bias.
> 
> ...



How exactly have I lost? His scans don't contradict mine. They only do so if you are so narrow - minded as to assume that if a character can do certain things, then they will do those kinds of things all the time and never perform lower than that. Variability is a given in comics, even under the same writer. The fact is that he is capable of these things. Besides, I don't know the name of every author to ever write a comic with Captain America in it, and I can't memorize which authors wrote which comics for thousands of issues of character history, it's just impossible.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2006)

lucky said:


> this is great and all but ti's not really showing any real superspeed... quick as hell yah, but nothing batman hasn't done before (wiht an few exceptions).  More of it seems like strategic planning and movement... he's not *reactively* dodging bullets n stuff... he's moving in a way that would avoid being hit.  BIG diff.
> 
> 
> I'd have to give it to gai.  Physically, Captain america's skills are all peak human movement.  It's pretty freaking obvious that gai moves and fights at superhuman speed.  There hasn't been ONE example IIRC of captain american doing anything more physically strenuous than even what rock lee has done.  I've never seen him break a massive boulder wiht a punch.  Or hit an opponent 40 times by bouncing off walls before the opponent even lands.  Or moving too fast for the human eye to see.
> ...



I've posted several scans of Cap moving too fast to be seen. Just because he's not drawn in these scenes with the generic blurry anime movement effect doesn't mean he's not as fast. I've shown many great strength feats (bending a huge iron door in half, ripping the machinery out of a tractor, etc.)


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2006)

earthshine said:


> Why the fuck is this still going?



Because a lot of people are underestimating Cap and some people are whining about canon evidence.



> Gai has EVERY possible advantage: is obviously faster than cap(ALL nins in naruto have superspeed, yet gai moves so fast that even they can't keep up),



Cap reacts to speedsters consistently, he has many feats of superfast movement, especially reaction time.



> stronger than cap(pushed a guy through a thick, solid concrete wall),



And Cap bend a foot - thick steel door in half while he had a broken shoulder, lifted tons of rubble off of himself to escape from being buried underneath it, ripped machinery off a tractor, lifted a 700 pound woman, did multiple reps on excersize machines with over 1100 pounds, and many more impressive feats.



> has massive fighting skills, and on top of all that, he has hax.



And Cap doesn't?



> @EM: you said a while ago that cap and gai are about equal(horribly incorrect, but we will go with it), but failed to remember that gai can just turn on 6 gates and increase all his physical attributes by a gigantic amount. how will cap beat that? a direct hit from that peacock thing will end cap very quickly(and don't even go into dodging or blocking, as kisame, who was keeping up with if not exceeding gai's attack speed, could not even move a muscle before he got slammed)



Cap routinely takes falls of many hundreds of feet, hits from people like Power  Man, Spidey, Namor, and Iron Man, explosions and grenades, even close proximity to a nuclear reactor. His durability is insane.


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 24, 2006)

Its funny Endless Mike. I didn't want to play the fallacy game, but you leave me no choice. Why? Because the way you use fallacies is a fallacy in itself. Lets play ball.

I'll start here:



			
				 Endless Mike said:
			
		

> False. I merely showed him dodging him and reacting to his attack. I never showed him beating Pietro. Stop lying or I'll report you.



This fallacy is a combination of *Straw Man* and *Appeal to Force*. He distorted my comment to make it appear as if I was claiming something I was not. After distorting my message he attacks it, thus dodging the original message. He then combo's in with Appeal to Force, threatening me from making the same argument or he'll distort it again and "report me".



			
				 Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That's a completely unrealistic expectation and it wouldn't hold true in a real - life scenario either. Some real - life martial artists can dodge arrows, but still get hit in HtH with humans, who are much slower than arrows. Just one example.



This fallacy is called *Irrelevant Conclusion*. Here Evil Mike uses an argument that comes to a completely different conclusion then what he is trying to prove. Dodging an arrow does not mean that you can instinctly react to high speeds. It means that you can dodge an arrow when you know its course and when its coming.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Strawman again. I never claimed or showed scans of Cap defeating him, just reacting to him.



The message he quoted:



			
				 Gunshin said:
			
		

> I'd like for you to explain the science of how a man can defeat a guy who can think and move at the speed of sound. Keep in mind that Quicksilver is not an arrow.


Where did I say Endless Mike claimed Captain America can beat people who move at the speed of sound?

Notice how Endless Mike uses his strawman claim to "dodge the arrow". Even if he mistakenly misinterpreted my post (which I doubt he did).. he could have easily interchanged the term "defeat" with "react". He chose not to, however, because he *cannot explain how a human can react faster then a person who can **think** and move many times faster*. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You were being dishonest. You have repeatedly said that I showed scans of Cap beating Pietro (you even repeated it earlier in this very post, you said he 'defeated' him, no semantics weaseling out of this one). You lied.


Appears that you lied. It appears that you lied in order to dodge the question. It appears that you distorted my post to get around my challenge to you. Lets stop this BS. Can you or can you not scientificaly explain how a man can "react" faster than another man who thinks and moves much much faster than himself? 

Its just as inconsistent as Spider Man beating Fire Lord. This shows why you are against limiting a characters feats to their respective writers. You use this inconsistency as your weapon in the battledome. Of course when the inconsistency is against you, you use biased rationalization to dismiss it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 24, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> Its funny Endless Mike. I didn't want to play the fallacy game, but you leave me no choice. Why? Because the way you use fallacies is a fallacy in itself. Lets play ball.
> 
> I'll start here:
> 
> ...



Lying is a dishonest tactic, it deserves to be reported. You have claimed that I said or showed that Cap has beaten Pietro. This is not true. Thus, you lied.



> This fallacy is called *Irrelevant Conclusion*. Here Evil Mike uses an argument that comes to a completely different conclusion then what he is trying to prove. Dodging an arrow does not mean that you can instinctly react to high speeds. It means that you can dodge an arrow when you know its course and when its coming.



Actually, I was referring to dodging the arrow after it was fired. Some people can do that, if it's far enough away.



> The message he quoted:
> 
> 
> Where did I say Endless Mike claimed Captain America can beat people who move at the speed of sound?
> ...


*

Come on now. Do you honestly think I would read that post and think you weren't implying that I said Cap can defeat Quicksilver? You said 'explain how he can defeat him'. I never claimed he defeated him! My objection stands. Just because you didn't specifically mention the name "Captain America" that sentence doesn't mean you can suddenly claim you were talking about someone else when the whole discussion was about him.





			Appears that you lied. It appears that you lied in order to dodge the question. It appears that you distorted my post to get around my challenge to you. Lets stop this BS. Can you or can you not scientificaly explain how a man can "react" faster than another man who thinks and moves at the speed of sound?
		
Click to expand...


No, you claimed I said Cap can beat him.

Quotes:




			You showed Captain America handling Quickjobber with ease
		
Click to expand...





			you used the biggest CIS'ing jobber in Marvel history, Quicksilver, as an example of how Captain America can own people who move at the speed of sound.
		
Click to expand...





			Under specific circumstances a person who can dodge, and defeat a person faster than sound can be hit by someone slower.
		
Click to expand...





			I'd like for you to explain the science of how a man can defeat a guy who can think and move at the speed of sound. Keep in mind that Quicksilver is not an arrow.
		
Click to expand...


You claimed that I said Cap beat Quicksilver, or posted scans where Cap beat Quicksilver. There's no getting around it. I did no such thing. You lied.

Cap can react that fast because he is superhuman. The comics consistently show this.




			Its just as inconsistent as Spider Man beating Fire Lord.
		
Click to expand...


How is a fluke incident, between characters who differ by a massive amount of power, that only happened once, as consistent as something that happens often, between characters not so far different in power (the gap between Spidey and Firelord is way greater than the gap between Cap and Quicksilver, at least the version that was in the scans I posted), and Cap didn't even beat him like like Spidey did? A rationalization can be found for that feat anyway that makes sense.





			This shows why you are against limiting a characters feats to their respective writers. You use this inconsistency as your weapon in the battledome. Of course when the inconsistency is against you, you use biased rationalization to dismiss it.
		
Click to expand...


Appeal to motive.

I said no because it isolates them from 99% of their feats and history, and it would be way too confusing and impossible to keep track of (a point you have yet to even comment on). I use the characters as they are shown, consistently. I wouldn't use Spider-man beating Firelord in a debate as evidence for Spidey's side, or Cap beating Thor or something, or Golden age Cap being said to move at lightspeed (I posted that as a joke). The closest I've come to what you're saying is the Hulk Dark Cosmos feat, but I've only invoked that when it was said in the debate that anything goes, and people were pulling out ridiculous claims on their side as well, and I even state that that is no way indicative of the Hulk's normal performance. That's why I differentiate "Dark Cosmos Hulk" from normal Savage Hulk.*


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 24, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Lying is a dishonest tactic, it deserves to be reported. You have claimed that I said or showed that Cap has beaten Pietro. This is not true. Thus, you lied.


You keep on saying I lied, but fail to quote me claiming that you said Captain America beat Quicksilver. 



> Actually, I was referring to dodging the arrow after it was fired. Some people can do that, if it's far enough away.


And it still has a straight projectory and dodging it is due to prediction not reation. Gai does not move straight like an arrow. Your example is the very meaning of the fallacy: *Irrelevant Conclusion*.



> Come on now. Do you honestly think I would read that post and think you weren't implying that I said Cap can defeat Quicksilver? You said 'explain how he can defeat him'. I never claimed he defeated him! My objection stands. Just because you didn't specifically mention the name "Captain America" that sentence doesn't mean you can suddenly claim you were talking about someone else when the whole discussion was about him.


No. My intention was for you to explain the science of how someone can beat a person who thinks and moves much faster than himself. Something you continue to fail to do. Instead you continue your strawman logic. You can continue to attack my message you distorted. Nobody buys it and nobody cares. So stop wasting time and answer:

*How is it scientificaly possible for someone to "react" to another person who thinks and moves at vastly superior speeds?*



> No, you claimed I said Cap can beat him.
> 
> You claimed that I said Cap beat Quicksilver, or posted scans where Cap beat Quicksilver. There's no getting around it. I did no such thing. You lied.


Anyone with middleschool level reading comprehension skills can see that I did nothing of the sort. What they *can see* is you continuing to attack strawmen instead of confronting the truth outside of the words you distorted.



> Cap can react that fast because he is superhuman. The comics consistently show this.


BALONI. Zergkage has already showed numerous scans of Captain America not being able to "react" to people who think much slower than quicksilver and move at much slower than the speed of sound. Oh- and don't just say "comics show this consistently" (which they don't) Explain "rationaly" how Captain America did that to Quick Silver. Can you?

Oh.. and please don't forget Zerg's post. I thnk he got you check & mate.


----------



## lucky (Oct 24, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> I've posted several scans of Cap moving too fast to be seen. Just because he's not drawn in these scenes with the generic blurry anime movement effect doesn't mean he's not as fast. I've shown many great strength feats (bending a huge iron door in half, ripping the machinery out of a tractor, etc.)



yeah i've re-reviewed the scans you've posted and in exactly **none** of them do they show or even imply that he moves too fast for the human eye to see.  I can accept if they don't 'show' him with blurry animeness but they should at least SAY that he moves that damn fast.  Otherwise you're just assuming what isn't there.  

And like i said, although you showed some amazing speed feats of captain america, you still haven't shown anything which OUTDO'S Gai's feats, which is what you're supposed to do if you're trying to prove that captain > gai.


----------



## ZergKage (Oct 24, 2006)

Found this while looking around

Link removed



			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> What the hell was Kyle doing in Identity Crisis when the rest of the leaguers took on Jobstroke? Sight-seeing?
> 
> And why in the hell would you PUNCH someone with a GL ring? Not even a GL construct punch, but the one where you use a physical fist.





			
				Gooba said:
			
		

> And why would Flash run straight into a sword that was just being held out behind him?
> 
> Basicly, if there is a fight or feat that goes against 99% of the other fights and feats a character has been in, I usually ignore it.





			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> When Flash moved, Deathstroke triggered a series of planted bombs around his person, forcing the Flash to maneuveur behind him, where Deathstroke jabbed out his sword at the specific time.
> 
> Flash fans explain that
> 
> ...





			
				Gooba said:
			
		

> The reason it is stupid is that if he is able to do everything he is at superspeed (avoid running into trees, reading, making thing, evacuating a city) there is no reason he wouldn't have been able to see the sword and avoid it. Also, given his speed he could have run forward, knocked Deathstroke out, and brought him back out to the rest of the people before the explosions even occured.
> 
> As canon as it may be, that one fight was just uber-jobbing by everyone involved.





			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Bingo.
> 
> Now with Brad at the helm of the relaunched JLA. . . I cringe at what screw-up may come. . .





			
				Havoc said:
			
		

> None of that matters. Cap fighting Iron Man should result in IM winning everytime, with barely any effort. None of Caps hits should be able to even stun IM, he should be able to just stand there and let Cap wail on him all day w/o getting hurt.





			
				Gooba said:
			
		

> Against Captain America IM could just stand there and let the Cap die to blood loss from the bloody knuckles he would get from wailing on him. It is like punching a steel box full of steel. No matter how persistant Cap is, he just can't hurt IM. At least, without PIS.





			
				Blitzomaru said:
			
		

> I have an issue with teh spidey vs. cap fight. You mean to tell me that spidey's new costume can take a bullet but it can't take cap's punches? And how does Cap even hit him? At the end of THe Other storyline, Tony put his hand on Pete's shoulder and Pete flips him on his ass subconciously so fast that no on was able to react. And Pete said that all his relflexes were multiplied when he came back to life. So there's no reason that he should've been hit by Cap.





			
				Cable aka Havoc said:
			
		

> Cap is a seasoned soldier, that has been enhanced to peak human abilities. He can take down Iron Man and The Hulk, of course he can beat someone who only has at least 7 times the reaction speed he does. That's only logical.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 25, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> You keep on saying I lied, but fail to quote me claiming that you said Captain America beat Quicksilver.



Read my post again. I posted quotes showing you saying that very thing. Here they are again: 



			
				Gunshin said:
			
		

> You showed Captain America handling Quickjobber with ease



I suppose you could nitpick and say when you said 'handling' you didn't really mean 'defeating', but that would be dishonest, since your meaning was clear.



> you used the biggest CIS'ing jobber in Marvel history, Quicksilver, as an example of how *Captain America can own people who move at the speed of sound.*



This one is very clear. You claimed I used Quicksilver as an example of how Cap can "own" people who move at the speed of sound. How is that not saying I claimed Cap can defeat him?



> Under specific circumstances a person who can dodge, and defeat a person faster than sound can be hit by someone slower.



Note the word 'defeat'. Don't you dare claim that you were talking about someone other than Cap and Pietro.



> I'd like for you to explain the science of how a man can defeat a guy who can think and move at the speed of sound. Keep in mind that Quicksilver is not an arrow.



Here it is, the word 'defeat' again!

Face it: You claimed that I either said or showed Cap defeating Quicksilver, where I did no such thing. Thus, you lied.



> And it still has a straight projectory and dodging it is due to prediction not reation. Gai does not move straight like an arrow. Your example is the very meaning of the fallacy: *Irrelevant Conclusion*.



No, it's an example of how someone can dodge something fast but still get hit by something slower. A punch moves in a straight line, so therefore a punch at the speed of an arrow would theoretically always be dodged by a person who can dodge an arrow, right?

Your fallacy lies in assuming that if someone can dodge something sometimes, then they can dodge it all the time. That's obviously not true.



> No. My intention was for you to explain the science of how someone can beat a person who thinks and moves much faster than himself.



There you go again! I never claimed Cap could beat Quicksilver.



> Something you continue to fail to do. Instead you continue your strawman logic. You can continue to attack my message you distorted. Nobody buys it and nobody cares. So stop wasting time and answer:
> 
> *How is it scientificaly possible for someone to "react" to another person who thinks and moves at vastly superior speeds?*



Because Cap has superhuman reaction speed. The comics show this.



> Anyone with middleschool level reading comprehension skills can see that I did nothing of the sort. What they *can see* is you continuing to attack strawmen instead of confronting the truth outside of the words you distorted.



See above. I posted clear quotes showing how you said I said or showed that  Cap beat Quicksilver, when I did no such thing.



> BALONI. Zergkage has already showed numerous scans of Captain America not being able to "react" to people who think much slower than quicksilver and move at much slower than the speed of sound. Oh- and don't just say "comics show this consistently" (which they don't) Explain "rationaly" how Captain America did that to Quick Silver. Can you?



Every character has low - end feats. That doesn't make the high - end feats just disappear. Do you think if he can react to someone moving at Quicksilver's speed (which at that point was not the speed of sound, I should note, just around 180 mph), then he would never get hit by anyone slower? That's stupid. Cap has done many, many things, consistently, that proves he is superhuman.



> Oh.. and please don't forget Zerg's post. I thnk he got you check & mate.



He's getting more irrational with every post he makes. It's a real chore to type up huge long responses to his whining.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 25, 2006)

lucky said:


> yeah i've re-reviewed the scans you've posted and in exactly **none** of them do they show or even imply that he moves too fast for the human eye to see.  I can accept if they don't 'show' him with blurry animeness but they should at least SAY that he moves that damn fast.  Otherwise you're just assuming what isn't there.



If people are tracking him, and they lose sight of him, while he is right next to them or in front of them, doesn't that imply he is moving too fast for them to see?  



> And like i said, although you showed some amazing speed feats of captain america, you still haven't shown anything which OUTDO'S Gai's feats, which is what you're supposed to do if you're trying to prove that captain > gai.



I'm not saying he's far away and above, just that he has a good chance of winning.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 25, 2006)

ZergKage said:


> Found this while looking around
> 
> *snip link*



And what is your point? I see nothing substantial here, just people talking about what they think should have happened. Sure, many times in comics or other works of fiction, something happens that, logically, shouldn't have happened, or something that should have logically happened, doesn't happen. (The Draka alternate history novels are a great example of this). That doesn't mean you should just ignore it. In real life, scientists who are doing experiments get results different from what they predicted all the time. That doesn't mean they just ignore the results and pretend that they didn't happen. They do investigation and analysis to find out _why_ something different happened. Often they figure it out. Sometimes they don't. However, they still accept that it happened, and use that for future predictive analysis. Exceptions are when they predict something to happen in an experiment and it happens, 999 times out of a thousand, they ignore the one different result as a fluke due to error or improper conditions. However, if it happens often, it has to be accepted.

The only other thing worth addressing in these quotes is the "He's faster where it counts" line. Using logical thinking, that obviously doesn't mean he's physically faster, it means he's mentally faster, as in smarter, and better at knowing his opponents' character and weaknesses, and setting up traps and such.


----------



## Gunshin (Oct 25, 2006)

Endless Mike.. i've already addressed your distortion of my post in an attempt to run away from my challenge. All of that crap above, and *nowhere*does it explain how a man can "react" to a man who thinks and moves multiple times faster than himself.



Endless Mike said:


> No, it's an example of how someone can dodge something fast but still get hit by something slower. A punch moves in a straight line, so therefore a punch at the speed of an arrow would theoretically always be dodged by a person who can dodge an arrow, right?


No it would not. A strike generally comes from 9 parts of the human, from multiple angles, and at unpredictable times. Your example arrives at a completely different conclusion hence the *fallacy of irrelevant conclusion*.



> Your fallacy lies in assuming that if someone can dodge something sometimes, then they can dodge it all the time. That's obviously not true.


Nice try. I'll address this once you explain how a man can "react" to another man who both thinks and moves much faster than himself. You can't. I've asked you to xplain this multiple times, but you just keep walking around it.



> Because Cap has superhuman reaction speed. The comics show this.


So they consistently show Captain America using "super human reaction speed" against people who move and think faster? No they do not.



> Do you think if he can react to someone moving at Quicksilver's speed (which at that point was not the speed of sound, I should note, just around 180 mph), then he would never get hit by anyone slower? That's stupid.



So basicaly what you're saying is: _the reason why Captain America can get hit by regular people even though he "reacted" to Quicksilver is because its stupid if he can't._ Love the explanation. lol.

How convenient for you to point out Quicksilver's speed at that time now instead of then(of course I expect a source). Anyways. Assuming you're telling the truth, that is still very very fast. And yes, if Captain America can "react" to Quicksilver he should not be hit from anyone slower than him. Its simple really:

Quicksilver moves and thinks several times faster than normal humans. This is why he's able to run at great speeds around trees, buildings, doors, people, etc.. In otherwords, when he moves its like everything is in slow motion for him. How can Captain America even touch someone like that who blitz him from behind? He shouldn't be able to. Just like how Wade shouldn't have been able to stab Flash.



> The only other thing worth addressing in these quotes is the "He's faster where it counts" line. Using logical thinking, that obviously doesn't mean he's physically faster, it means he's mentally faster, as in smarter, and better at knowing his opponents' character and weaknesses, and setting up traps and such.


Using logical thinking that shouldn't of happened. The only reason you're defending that retarded feat of Deathstroke is because it hurts your argument if you don't. Endless Mike, do you really want to rely on PIS, CIS, and jobbing aura to win battledome fights?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 25, 2006)

Gunshin said:


> Endless Mike.. i've already addressed your distortion of my post in an attempt to run away from my challenge. All of that crap above, and *nowhere*does it explain how a man can "react" to a man who thinks and moves multiple times faster than himself.



I've explained it, you're just ignoring it.



> No it would not. A strike generally comes from 9 parts of the human, from multiple angles, and at unpredictable times. Your example arrives at a completely different conclusion hence the *fallacy of irrelevant conclusion*.



And when Quicksilver is running at Cap, he is running in one direction. He's not coming from 9 directions at the same time. Cap can react to his attacks, but he can't actually keep up with his speed.



> Nice try. I'll address this once you explain how a man can "react" to another man who both thinks and moves much faster than himself. You can't. I've asked you to xplain this multiple times, but you just keep walking around it.



Because Cap's reflexes are superhuman! I've stated this already, and shown it to you with him dodging bullets, particle beams, projectiles, what have you.



> So they consistently show Captain America using "super human reaction speed" against people who move and think faster? No they do not.



Why, because he gets tagged? Of course he's going to get tagged! He can't go a whole fight without being tagged once, at least not 99% of the time. He can simply react to these attacks in a much smaller time interval than a normal human can, and dodge or launch counter attacks. Doesn't mean he can outrun Quicksilver or anything. The mere fact that he lasts as long as he does against some of the kinds of opponents he fights is evidence of this.



> So basicaly what you're saying is: _the reason why Captain America can get hit by regular people even though he "reacted" to Quicksilver is because its stupid if he can't._ Love the explanation. lol.



No, it's that just becaue he can react to super speed attacks doesn't mean he will never get hit. In fact he did get tagged by Pietro in that scan I showed, he just reacted to it and jumped away. These superhuman reaction speeds don't mean he can automatically predict any attack and move at super speed to dodge it.

How convenient for you to point out Quicksilver's speed at that time now instead of then(of course I expect a source).



			
				Marvel Directory said:
			
		

> Quicksilver is a mutant who possesses the superhuman capacity to think and move at great speeds. His entire body is adapted towards the rigors of high-speed running. His cardiovascular and respiratory systems are many times more efficient than those of a normal human being. He metabolizes an estimated 95% of the caloric energy content of foodstuffs (normal human use is about 25%). The chemical processes of Quicksilver's musculature are so highly enhanced that his body does not generate fatigue poisons, the normal by-products of locomotion, which force the body to rest. Rather, his body constantly expels waste products during his accelerated respiration through exhalation. His joints are smoother and lubricated more efficiently than those of a normal human being. His tendons have the tensile strength of spring steel. His bones contain unknown materials significantly more durable than calcium to withstand the dynamic shocks of his feet touching the ground at speeds of over 100 miles per hour. *Quicksilver's practical reaction time is about five times faster than a normal human's and the speed at which his brain processes information is heightened to a level commensurate with his bodily speed*, enabling him to perceive his surroundings while traveling at high velocities. Quicksilver's lachrymose is more viscous than normal, thus preventing rapid evaporation and replenishment of surface fluids on his eyeballs under the influence of high wind velocity to occlude his vision.
> 
> *Quicksilver has been timed at speeds of up to 175 miles per hour*, approximately three times faster than the fastest land animal, the cheetah. He has sufficient energy reserves to enable him to run at this average speed for about four hours, whereupon he must reduce his speed, replenish his body's store of energy, or do both.
> 
> Quicksilver has used his powers of acceleration for various feats. He has plucked an arrow out of the air from a standing start, after the arrow left the bow and traveled a distance of about 20 feet. He has dodged machine gun fire, but presumably he was able to see the path of the bullets change as his assailant was attempting to track him with a burst. He has created cyclone-like gusts of wind, which are able to knock a man off his feet, by racing around in a ten-foot diameter circle. With a 500-foot approach to gain momentum, Quicksilver can run approximately 300 feet up the side of a surface with a 90-degree inclination (such as a building) before gravity overtakes him. With a 100-foot approach to gain momentum, he can run across a body of water for approximately 1000 feet before beginning to sink.





> Anyways. Assuming you're telling the truth, that is still very very fast. And yes, if Captain America can "react" to Quicksilver he should not be hit from anyone slower than him. Its simple really:
> 
> Quicksilver moves and thinks several times faster than normal humans. This is why he's able to run at great speeds around trees, buildings, doors, people, etc.. In otherwords, when he moves its like everything is in slow motion for him. How can Captain America even touch someone like that who blitz him from behind? He shouldn't be able to. Just like how Wade shouldn't have been able to stab Flash.



Because Captain America also can think and react faster than a normal human. You know that Quicksilver gets tagged all the time too right? He's not untouchable either, like you would like to think. Many of the people who tag him are slower than he is.






> Using logical thinking that shouldn't of happened. The only reason you're defending that retarded feat of Deathstroke is because it hurts your argument if you don't. Endless Mike, do you really want to rely on PIS, CIS, and jobbing aura to win battledome fights?



I refuse to recognize those terms most of the time, as they are a cheap way out of actual analysis.

I have provided tons of evidence and logic explaining Deathstroke's feat (he had one - sided prep, guided Flash on a predetermined course into a trap he had set up ahead of time, Flash wasn't going anywhere near all - out since it would be too dangerous to civilians and a waste of this power, etc.)

Yet you and your ilk continue to state the completely illogical conclusion "Deathstroke is faster than Flash!" and say that is the only way to explain it, and and not only that, but that it should be completely ignored, even though it happened in canon. That is what is dishonest. I have presented feats by Cap that he replicates often, many times. It's not just one time beating Thor or something, it's consistent performance. He consistently does superhuman things. *He is superhuman.* It's as plain as day.

Also I noticed that you ignored the issue of your lying about how you said I claimed that Cap beat Quicksilver, after I proved it.


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## Gunshin (Oct 25, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> I've explained it, you're just ignoring it.


You're explaining it with a "he can because he does" answer. Scientificaly explain it.



> And when Quicksilver is running at Cap, he is running in one direction. He's not coming from 9 directions at the same time. Cap can react to his attacks, but he can't actually keep up with his speed.


He was running towards his back and grabbed caps shoulder. When cap "reacted" to grab his hand, Quicksilver should have been able to move since he thinks and moves several times faster than Captain America. 



> Because Cap's reflexes are superhuman! I've stated this already, and shown it to you with him dodging bullets, particle beams, projectiles, what have you.


And multiple people (including myself) have already stated that dodging beams and bullets does not mean you can react at superhuman speeds. Everyone.. normal human, mutant, etc. has dodged gunfire or laser beams at some point. Once again: Fallacy of *Irrelevant Conclusion*. 



> Why, because he gets tagged? Of course he's going to get tagged! He can't go a whole fight without being tagged once, at least not 99% of the time. He can simply react to these attacks in a much smaller time interval than a normal human can, and dodge or launch counter attacks. Doesn't mean he can outrun Quicksilver or anything. The mere fact that he lasts as long as he does against some of the kinds of opponents he fights is evidence of this.


you're using this crap logic to explain how Captain America can react top someone who moves and thinks much faster than himself. Explain it scientificaly. Explain it so it makes sense. Please... don't use examples of irrelevant conclusion and crap logic like "well, if he did it, he can do it" or "he has super human reaction".



> No, it's that just becaue he can react to super speed attacks doesn't mean he will never get hit. In fact he did get tagged by Pietro in that scan I showed, he just reacted to it and jumped away. These superhuman reaction speeds don't mean he can automatically predict any attack and move at super speed to dodge it.


Yes.. it does. Or at least until you scientificaly logicaly prove otherwise. Which you haven't yet.



> Because Captain America also can think and react faster than a normal human. You know that Quicksilver gets tagged all the time too right? He's not untouchable either, like you would like to think. Many of the people who tag him are slower than he is.


Yes, Quickjobber does get tagged a lot. Strangely enough, so does the Flash. This goes back to inconsistency.



> I refuse to recognize those terms most of the time, as they are a cheap way out of actual analysis.


Most of the time meaning when it doesn't suit your agenda. You threw qute a fit at the mentioning of Spiderman over Firelord.



> I have provided tons of evidence and logic explaining Deathstroke's feat (he had one - sided prep, guided Flash on a predetermined course into a trap he had set up ahead of time, Flash wasn't going anywhere near all - out since it would be too dangerous to civilians and a waste of this power, etc.)


Too dangerous for civilians my ass. How can Slade bring up the sword too fast for the Flash to dodge or evade? Vibrate? It doesn't make sense. You're the only one trying to make it fit when it clearly doesn't.



> Yet you and your ilk continue to state the completely illogical conclusion "Deathstroke is faster than Flash!" and say that is the only way to explain it, and and not only that, but that it should be completely ignored, even though it happened in canon. That is what is dishonest. I have presented feats by Cap that he replicates often, many times. It's not just one time beating Thor or something, it's consistent performance. He consistently does superhuman things. *He is superhuman.* It's as plain as day.


Whats dishonest is how you like to use bad writing as weapons in the battledome. Its your expertise. Searching out PIS from bad writers and using it as evidence.



> Also I noticed that you ignored the issue of your lying about how you said I claimed that Cap beat Quicksilver, after I proved it.


I addressed that numerous times as you distorting my message in an attempt to "report me" and doge answering how it is possible for Captain America to react to a person who can think and move many times faster than himself.


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## earthshine (Oct 25, 2006)

would both of you stop the fucking bickering please?


you are going around in circels now, and this fight is going nowhere. I think a mod should just close it, everyone has made points, and nobody is willing to concede to the others points, so let's just stop. this will go on forever if not.


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## ZergKage (Oct 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That feat by Deathstroke was not a speed feat, it was a prep feat. Furthermore, I never claimed that the scans I posted were the only examples in existence of Cap doing such feats, on the contrary, they're just a small sample. I just don't have scans of all of them. It's just a general idea of the kinds of things he can do. Cap has been around since the 40s, if I had to go by your standards of proof I would have to post scans of over 50% of his entire career, that would be probably too many scans to even fit on my hard drive. Surely you see how unreasonable a request that is, don't you?



First, the feat of Deathstroke was a speed feat. You can not say it was a prep feat because the whole encounter was determined on Deathstroke 1) being fast enough to hit the button for the explosives and 2) being fast enough to bring the sword from out front of his body to underneath his armpit to where he could stab Flash. That is 2 different things he had to do faster than Flash in order to beat him. The only bit of prep in there was that Flash couldnt attack him from the sides after he set off the explosives. It is jobbing/PIS/CIS that Flash couldnt move that fast at that close of a range. But majority of people knows this. But according to your logic it is canon and Deathstroke proved to be faster than Flash. 

Secondly, I dont know what your talking about 50% of his career in scans. As i've told you there are only a few of your scans that are unreasonable in the way your trying to display them. It is however reasonable to ask for 2 more of the same or similar feat just to make sure its not something that happened once as a fluke or PIS/CIS.

Thirdly i was talking about Flash, showing Flash go a certain speed once or twice by your standard is all you need to show someone to prove that its constant.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Did you even read the comic? He set the explosives up in a way to set Flash on a predetermined path directly into where Deathstroke predicted he would go, to his back, where he had his sword waiting for him. He wasn't faster.



I know this is hard for you but look



See how close Flash is to Deathstroke in scene 2
Now see Deathstroke move his sword before Flash got there in scene 3
Now in scene 4 you see Flash run into the sword

That is a speed feat whether you like it or not. Do you honestly think Flash would just run into a sword possibly killing himself unless it was CIS/PIS/Jobbing



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> How dense are you? The sword was already there. Stealing his speed wouldn't have made the sword disappear, and he would still run into it.



I'm talking about stealing his speed when he first got there. Not when he's running at him. Making him a statue so that anyone else there could have takin him out. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Then you're being an idiot. It's a logical explanation that fits the facts that Flash was going slow, it makes sense of the situation without ignoring any of the canon. That's called a rationalization. Also, you were asking me to prove a negative, you asked for scans or proof that Flash was not going all - out, and you still have to prove that he was, if that's what you think.



I dont have to prove anything Mike. I said Flash was going his avg speed. Your the one that is trying to change his speed to make him slower. If you want to do that then you have to try and prove it, not me. His avg speed is more than enough to be faster than Deathstroke which is why majority of people call this Jobbing/CIS/PIS. Dont try and reverse that on me. 




			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Use your brain. Deathstroke didn't match his reaction time, he set up a trap that led Flash on a predetermined path into a position where Deathstroke was already waiting for him. Slade didn't run, catch up to him, and stab him, he set up explosives that led Flash on a path into his back where the sword was waiting for him.



Not gonna post the scan again Mike. Read above. Deathstroke didnt move the sword until Flash was right next to him and he moved it before Flash could get there. The only thing the bombs did was make him come from the back. He still had to get the sword up in time to stab him, thus he was faster. The only way your theory works is if he already had the sword up before he set off the explosives. Which anyone can see didnt happen.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Link's not loading. Besides, I never claimed he had perfect accuracy, so you have no point.



Oh wow. Now your gonna play the "link won't work game." This link isnt about accuracy. It's about the speed which he threw it, which was slow enough to be dodged by Mr. Hyde



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> By who? The link won't load.



LoL All of these links wrk for me. Anyways Powerman. One punch and takes him through a wall. Cap is out.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Considering that Spidey himself gets tagged by the Hulk, I don't see your point. It's a feat that he even survived that.



Not in the scans i showed he didnt. He dodged and beat the Hulk. Hulk was just to fast for Cap here. Hulk wasnt even trying to kill him and was Professor Hulk.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Not loading.



You mean your ignoring them...try it again unless your scared to look at them



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Not loading. Besides, I never claimed he always throws the shield that fast, just that he's capable of doing so. He doesn't throw it that fast every time, obviously.



Try it again. And if your not claiming he throws that fast every time then why did you show that scan in the first place. Obvisously you wanted everyone to think he throws his shield faster than missiles.....excuse me, faster than missiles that travel at the speed of sound. When i and Gunshin and whomever else told you that's not an avg portrayl and thus shouldnt hold much/if any water you got all huffy puffy. But i and Gunshin know what your gonna say, simply that "he just didnt want to throw it that fast at those times." That is why i'm asking for 3 more examples or someone saying he throws it that fast majority of the time. Again not for all your scans, *just the missle feat*




			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> First scan's not working. Who is it? Besides, I never claimed Cap could just dodge anything, just react to high speed attacks.



Its a human terroist. Again you say the link wont work. Again you claim you never said said Cap could do something. But that is obvisously what your trying to imply when you show a scan, or else what is the point of showing it. Again click the link instead of backstepping.





			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> These scans work against you, read the third one "with a speed the eye can barely follow". Cap is fast. Besides, it was stated in the very scans that he wasn't even fighting seriously, he was trying to just calm Nick down and subdue him. Nick is hardly a pushover himself either, he's a master of armed and unarmed combat and very strong



No they dont. A regular human barely following someone < Someone disappearing to a trained ninja that could disappear to regular humans

And for the first set he tried to subdue Nick that way until the second scan where he said he was "Going to end this farce NOW" he was angry and wanted to end it but Nick dodged his shield toss. and again went on the offense. He was then fast enough to run at Cap and hit him, Cap couldnt dodge it. Again as far as the third scan Nick was good enough to kick the shield back at Cap to where he couldnt catch it and he had to dodge it. He again is human.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Because he was busy fighting at the time? I never claimed he had perfect dodging skills and never got hit, just that he was capable of dodging bullets (as I have shown).



Gunshin has told you a dozen times, there is a difference between dodging bullets and dodging the line of sight of someone shooting at you which is something humans can do. If Cap had bullet dodging skills he wouldnt have been trying to shield himself from the bullets, he simply would have dodged them and takin out everyone there.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And the shield rebound knocks back Hercules! This is hilarious, every time you try to discredit Cap, you end up actually demonstrating his power. Also, Daredevil is not exactly a weakling or slow.



Huh, Daredevil Not only was fast enough to react to and spin Caps shield but he then grabbed Cap proving he is faster than Cap. You know Daredevil another human. And the only reason the shield hurt Hercules was because Daredevil spun it around and threw it at Hercules. This is the part where you look at the scan, see what i'm talking about and feel really silly. Your bias knows no bounds



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And? As I said, Daredevil is not exactly weak. Besides, in the very scans it says Cap wasn't expecting Daredevil to seriously try to hurt him and was taken by surprise.



How can you be taken by suprise when your faster than your opponent. This would again be called CIS/PIS/Jobbing to me. But to you its consistancy. Daredevil > Cap in speed.


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## ZergKage (Oct 26, 2006)

_Continued..._



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Conclusion: Every character has low showings. That doesn't just make the high ones simply disappear. Most of what you posted is already consistent with what I posted, you just underestimated the characters that were getting the better of him. And a lot of the scans weren't even working.



First the scans work, not sure if your in a rush or just not wanting to look at them but they work. And no there not consistant with what you showed. You showed Cap beating Beast/Matching Spiderman/Throwing a shield faster than a missile. If you count these scans then then your scans are not consistant. But your right every character has low end  and high end showings. The thing is you cant try and post only scans of the high end feats like that is always how he fights, which is what you did. Of course you'll say you never said that but again i'll say if that wasnt your intention then why did you show the scans in the first place instead of showing avg feats. What you did was try and mold all good showing of Cap into a Cap Prime and say its canon, but when i do this with Spiderman or Deathstroke you try and discredit them.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You're right, it might not have been going faster than sound. However, it is still impressive.



Then why say that. If you had no proof then why. if you have no proof i'll just say it wasnt going very fast.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Are you even paying attention? I'm saying it's more logical for Firelord to have underestimated Spider-man and only used a tiny fraction of his power, but then get beaten, than to just say that it didn't even happen when it clearly did.



The thing is your just making that part up. Saying that he only used a tiny fraction of his power is a lie. That was never stated. He only wanted to kill Spiderman in personal combat, not by just Nuking NY. He then chased Spiderman and even lured him out into the open where he couldnt dodge and what did he get??? Laid out for it. I shouldnt have to tell you but Firelord is faster/stronger/more durable than Spiderman and he simply lost without touching Spiderman once. That is PIS/CIS/Jobbing



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Which means he was seriously weakened. Kisame at 100% fighting just to KO Gai and not kill him would be more likely to win than Kisame at 30% trying to kill him.
> 
> As for Beast and Spidey, it depends on the fight in question. There was one fight with a Spider-man robot that was trying to kill him, for example.


 
I didnt say he wasnt seriously weakened. You said Kisame wasnt trying to kill Gai to which i told you was false. He was trying to kill him and the only thing he lacked was his full reserve of Chakra. This doesnt mean he wasnt trying. 

And i'll ask you again *Yes* or *No* were Beast or Spiderman going all out again Cap when they fought him. Is it that hard to ask yes or no??



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yes, of course I'm going to go look through every Captain America comic ever published in the last 6 and a half decades, find each specific page where a feat like that happens, buy a scanner, scan it, and post it for you to see.
> 
> Do you realize how unreasonable you're being?



Then dont try and downplay the scans i posted by saying i didnt give you the issue # and pages. Dont ask me to do something your not willing to do.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> But using your logic, since it only happened once, he can't really do it. You have to show him doing it at least 5 times or it doesn't count.



No we only *saw* it once. Like i said if Lee knew what was coming then that means he had to have done it before. Mike if you have a scan of someone saying Cap can throw his shield faster than the speed of sound i'd like to see it.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He's lasted for much longer than that against those kind of people, and even 20 seconds would be longer that how long Gai could concievably last against Iron Man or Namor.



Not if you include PIS/CIS like Cap gets. Gai would last a lot longer than Cap.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> So you think if someone worked out enough they could do all these things?



I doubt it. But This world doesnt have the SSS so this question makes no sense. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> *sigh* this is hopeless. You're not even listening to what I'm saying.



I am listening to what your saying. What your saying is the highest of high end feats are things that that person will do in the majority of their fights. I'm saying if you think that way for one person it has to work that way with everyone. Thus Spiderman > Hulk, Deathstroke is faster than Flash. It is canon and to you if its canon you cant deny it.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I'm not. I'm simply coming up with an explanation that reconciles the two conflicting facts. It was a magical blast of unknown properties, magic can have strange effects, so therefore it somehow bypassed the vibranium and KO'd him. When you have two facts or events that contradict each other, you don't just ignore one of them, you try to find an explanation for how they could have both happened.



Your explanation means nothing since it was in comics and is thus canon. Stop trying to make excuses.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I'm not sure. Any number I throw out would just be a guess, and not even an educated one.



Have you ever seen Mr. Hyde being so fast that he disappeared. Ever. This again is a *Yes* or *No* question.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> False, I never claimed Cap is so much faster, in fact in moving speed (travelling) he is likely quite a bit slower, it's reaction speed and shield - throwing speed where he excels.



If Hyde can catch his shield toss than so can Gai. If DD can spin it around and throw it so can Gai. If Nick Fury can kick it so can Gai. If these same people can punch Cap then So will Gai, only with these two circumstances Gai will far exceed these human level people.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You have yet to prove this, I've provided tons of evidence against it, but you're desperate to just arbitrarily decide that all of my evidence doesn't count.





Disappearing in front of Naruto/Sasuke/Sakura



Fast enough to disarm Kisame



Not really a strength feat but he thought he could break it. Only there was a barrier spell on it. 

this page
this page
Punching someone thru a wall

This is all without opening gates. Which 10x your stats (IIRC) with each one you open


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## ZergKage (Oct 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And what is your point? I see nothing substantial here, just people talking about what they think should have happened. Sure, many times in comics or other works of fiction, something happens that, logically, shouldn't have happened, or something that should have logically happened, doesn't happen. (The Draka alternate history novels are a great example of this). That doesn't mean you should just ignore it. In real life, scientists who are doing experiments get results different from what they predicted all the time. That doesn't mean they just ignore the results and pretend that they didn't happen. They do investigation and analysis to find out why something different happened. Often they figure it out. Sometimes they don't. However, they still accept that it happened, and use that for future predictive analysis. Exceptions are when they predict something to happen in an experiment and it happens, 999 times out of a thousand, they ignore the one different result as a fluke due to error or improper conditions. However, if it happens often, it has to be accepted.



I'm not talking about scientist Mike. And the point of that post is to show you that other people see it as jobbing/PIS/CIS. 



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The only other thing worth addressing in these quotes is the "He's faster where it counts" line. Using logical thinking, that obviously doesn't mean he's physically faster, it means he's mentally faster, as in smarter, and better at knowing his opponents' character and weaknesses, and setting up traps and such.



Assuming Mike. The comic showed Deathstroke being faster than Flash. It's very silly but it was shown. The majority in that link agree it was Jobbing/PIS/CIS. Thus i'd assume they dont use that in debates and thus generally try to forget about it.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 26, 2006)

Wait Mike, you said Capt is superhuman?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2006)

Yes, I said he's superhuman. Not like Superman or the Hulk or even Spider-man, but significantly more physically capable than a normal human.



> would both of you stop the fucking bickering please?
> 
> 
> you are going around in circels now, and this fight is going nowhere. I think a mod should just close it, everyone has made points, and nobody is willing to concede to the others points, so let's just stop. this will go on forever if not.



I agree. I really hate having to waste over an hour every day just to type up long responses to gunshin and zergkage, especially since it's getting us nowhere.


----------

