# Third Raikage Vs Itachi



## ReverseZero12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Location: Same place naruto fought Third Raikage (Edo)
Restrictions/Conditions: None 
State of mind: Bloodlust
Knowledge: Third Raikage has general knowledge on Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susanoo and general knowledge on a regular sharingan. But he doesn't have any knowledge on how efficient and power these techniques are with itachi. Itachi has knowledge on how fast he is and how physically strong he is (fighting head on with gyuuki). But nothing else. 

Who takes this?


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

Casual Tsukuyomi annihilation with no difficulty.

There's like five or six people that can handle Itachi without knowledge. Sandaime is not one of them.


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## ReverseZero12 (Nov 24, 2013)

I think I should edit the conditions to make it more even


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

You would need to restrict both Genjutsu and Amaterasu, but then you're gimping Itachi so much that the thread holds little purpose.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Bonly (Nov 24, 2013)

Itachi doesn't have anything in his arsenal to put down the Sandaime bar Tsukuyomi likely,Ama and the Totsuka no Tsurugi while the Sandaime doesn't have anything to get through the highest levels of Susanoo so his only shot would be outlasting Itachi. So this depends on if the Sandaime take out Itachi early before Susanoo comes out as well as how if Itachi would be able to place the Sandaime under a genjutsu(assuming Itachi isn't taking out early that is). I'd slightly favor Itachi more times then not because I can see him putting the Sandaime under a genjutsu and finishing him off before the other option happens more times then not.

Inb4 someone quotes this post talking about how "it took 5 susanoo to put a Raikage in a genjutsu" and they don't realize that is false.


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## ReverseZero12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You would need to restrict both Genjutsu and Amaterasu, but then you're gimping Itachi so much that the thread holds little purpose.



Yeah that's too much. Even if I don't restrict Genjutsu and amaterasu, it is still a somewhat debatable battle although I'd give itachi the edge.


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## Baroxio (Nov 24, 2013)

Well, Itachi holds comparable speed, has clones, and only needs to hit him with Amaterasu once to win the match (it'll take like a week to burn through the 3rd Raikage's pecs, but it'll still win the match).

Without Amaterasu, Itachi would have to rely on genjutsu to create an opening, but between Utakata, crow genjutsu, his nigh-unreal intelligence and his ability to use Kage Bunshin variants, landing such a genjtusu is an inevitability.

Itachi is comfortably above the Third Raikage, no ifs, ands or buts.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Casual Tsukuyomi annihilation with no difficulty.
> 
> There's like five or six people that can handle Itachi without knowledge. Sandaime is not one of them.



^This.

Itachi hits the 3rd with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu and that's the end of the match; the Raikage has no way to detect either and he can't avoid them both at the same time.

Itachi's on a different level.


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## Bansai (Nov 24, 2013)

You should probably disable every kind of Genjutsu to make this fair.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Well, Itachi holds comparable speed, has clones, and only needs to hit him with Amaterasu once to win the match (it'll take like a week to burn through the 3rd Raikage's pecs, but it'll still win the match).
> 
> Without Amaterasu, Itachi would have to rely on genjutsu to create an opening, but between Utakata, crow genjutsu, his nigh-unreal intelligence and his ability to use Kage Bunshin variants, landing such a genjtusu is an inevitability.
> 
> Itachi is comfortably above the Third Raikage, no ifs, ands or buts.



This. 

I hate saying this but, there is a tier difference in every respect except stamina.
Itachi has comparable speed, has more haxx techniques, he is a lot more versatile and smarter.

To be able to kill Itachi with raw speed & strength, first you need to be fuckloads faster than him and you need a technique powerful enough to breach higher stages of Susano'o. 
None of this applies to Sandaime.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 24, 2013)

Sick Itachi vs. 3rd Raikage with decent sharingan knowledge?

Lol, his Ribcage Susano is steamrolled through and he's bisected.

Amaterasu? The dude avoided FRS at point-blank, two times, by a faster ninja, without a clue that the technique actually moved.

Tsukyomi? Genjutsu? The dude avoids eye contact and blitzes before Itachi puts a finger up.

He moves through his Susano, then his clothing, then his skin, then his muscles, then his bones, directly through his organs and out of the other side of Itachi's body and Susano with Hell Stab.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 24, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> shut up.
> 
> yata mirror blocks him
> 
> genjutsu gg


Sick Itachi cannot manifest Yata Mirror at start battle. He cannot even manifest V2 Susano before the Raikage is putting his arm through him.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 24, 2013)

The only correct answer to the outcome of this match is Raikagenaut on the floor as his brain turns to pudding after _Tsukuyomai_

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Turrin (Nov 24, 2013)

Sandaime has only two chances, one if Hell Bringer can get through Susano'o, which I think Yata Mirror would probably prevent at the very least. Second if he can trip Itachi up w/ Amber-Sealing Jar, but more often than not I favor Itachi winning this as Tsukuyomi, Ama, and maybe even Tota if it can pierce through Sandaime's defense are perfect for taking down a durability beast like Sandaime.


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## Ejenku (Nov 24, 2013)

Itachi has the speed to dodge the 3rd's onslaught and trick him with crow bushins/genjutsu. The 3rd has shown no prowess for genjutsu and I assume he'd be caught when staring at Itachi's eyes. Even if the 3rd could break out of it he'd still need time. By then Itachi would realize his base ninjutsu is useless and uses Amaterasu when he either hits a bushin or is in a genjutsu.

Itachi may also trick the 3rd Raikage into thinking he'd killed Itachi and deactivates his shroud making him easier to kill. Itachi can continue to use low stamina techniques like crow bushins and genjutsu to confuse raikage until he burns to death. 

 I don't think Itachi needs Susanoo here as it would weaken him too much and in my opinion would avoid using it all costs to stay healthy. Susanoo is not needed here as the raikage is not fast enough where Itachi can't dodge. The two should have comparable speed and the 3rd doesn't have any aoe techniques. All of his attacks are straight forward. I don't see him as any faster than his son in v1 shroud and Itachi will have no problems with speed of that level.


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## crisler (Nov 24, 2013)

one of the most effective enemies against sandaime raikage is itachi.

bad matchup


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## fior fior (Nov 24, 2013)

Itachi is just too good with Tsukuyomi for Sandaime to win this one..

Literally, one look is all it takes for the fight to be over. Sandaime doesn't have enough confirmed experience fighting Genjutsu users for me to believe he can win.

Restrict Tsukuyomi and Itachi gets torn to pieces.


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## fior fior (Nov 24, 2013)

> Tsukyomi? Genjutsu? The dude avoids eye contact and blitzes before Itachi puts a finger up.



Itachi doesn't need to make eye contact in order to cast Tsukuyomi. I agree on all of your points except this one. Tsukuyomi caught an experienced Sharingan user like Sasuke; there is no way in hell that Raikage is avoiding it.

Please note that Sasuke, upon using Tsukuyomi for the first time, caught a speeding Bee and dropped him unconscious. Itachi is stressed to be a much stronger Genjutsu user than his younger sibling. You have to remember that the only reason Bee got up again was because Gyuuki broke him out.


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## Garcher (Nov 24, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sick Itachi cannot manifest Yata Mirror at start battle. He cannot even manifest V2 Susano before the Raikage is putting his arm through him.



Remember the battle vs sasuke, Itachi was able to activate susanoo in lightning speed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 24, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sick Itachi vs. 3rd Raikage with decent sharingan knowledge?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Master Sephiroth (Nov 24, 2013)

Itachi should win, sick or not. Itachi can put up a Susano'o capable of stopping Kirin from killing him instantly. It can stop Hell Bringer by feats. Even if it doesn't, it would slow him down so much that he would get grabbed by Susano'o Arm and then either lit on fire or Tsukuyomi'd.


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## Mercurial (Nov 24, 2013)

It's actually really hard to say, Raikage could win, if he was a smart fighter... if he was.


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## Vice (Nov 24, 2013)

fior fior said:


> Itachi doesn't need to make eye contact in order to cast Tsukuyomi.



Uh... what?


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## Vice (Nov 24, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Too bad Itachi's isn't restricted to that.
> There are other options of avoiding raikage, like bunshin feints or straight up dodging him.



Yes, because Itachi is fast enough to do this when he can't even dodge rigged shuriken.



> I am pretty sure Amaterasu is fuckloads faster than FRS.



Funny, because more people have dodged Amaterasu than FRS.



> His son had to go V2 to be able to dodge it and Sandaime dodged FRS twice, like you said.



Hebi Sasuke outran Amaterasu for quite some time. 



> He avoids eye contact and gets hit by Amaterasu.



This is assuming that Amaterasu could do jack shit to the Raikage here. Karin survived Amaterasu. That's all you need to know about.



> And he isn't blitzing anyone here. Sasuke was able to outmanuver A



Sasuke got bounced around like a pinball, the fuck are you talking about? 



> and Itachi is faster than Sasuke.



lol rigged shuriken.



> Or Itachi simply grabs him like Madara's Susano'o grabbed A and puts him in a coma with Tsukiyomi.



Assuming Itachi can catch him. Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi

Also assuming Raikage can't just break himself free, the dude went head-to-head with Bijuu for fuck's sake.


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## Jizznificent (Nov 24, 2013)

genjutsu paralysis then totsuka GG.


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## Trojan (Nov 24, 2013)

The 3rd wins. 

None of itachi's jutsu can harm him, as for the Amaterasu, he can use his speed to avoid it. 
Tsku is NOT automatic, itachi will need to catch the 3rd as madara did with A, and that's no happening. 

The 3rd can fight for 3 days, but itachi with his kid's chakra level won't last for long. 

bad match up, the 3rd wins med difficult at most.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

Vice said:


> Yes, because Itachi is fast enough to do this when he can't even dodge rigged shuriken.



That only happened after Sasuke broke Itachi's Tsukuyomi and his reflexes were compromised.

I don't believe you didn't know that already. So why did you even say this?



> Funny, because more people have dodged Amaterasu than FRS.



Only one person has dodged Amaterasu (the 4th Raikage) while two have dodged FRS (Pain Tendou and the 3rd Raikage). So that is just plain incorrect, although it isn't even relevant in the first place.



> Hebi Sasuke outran Amaterasu for quite some time.



No, Hebi Sasuke started running before Itachi used Amaterasu and still got hit with it.



> This is assuming that Amaterasu could do jack shit to the Raikage here. Karin survived Amaterasu. That's all you need to know about.



Karin has a healing factor and only survived because Sasuke stopped the flames.

You're not this stupid, so I can only assume you're being dishonest intentionally, which is reprehensible because you aren't being hilarious about it.



> lol rigged shuriken.



The fact that Sasuke needed a rigged shuriken to land a hit on Itachi even after breaking his Tsukuyomi does suggest that Itachi was faster than Sasuke. And their stats at the time reflect this.



> Assuming Itachi can catch him. Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi



Not speed-wise.



> Also assuming Raikage can't just break himself free, the dude went head-to-head with Bijuu for fuck's sake.



That Bijuu couldn't use Genjutsu or Amaterasu.



Elia said:


> The 3rd wins.



I don't think I have ever seen you conclude that Itachi wins a match. Any match. Ever.

You always side with his opponent and say his Jutsu are either dodged or ineffective.

You know Itachi is an extremely powerful/dangerous shinobi, right? He's very fast in his own right (maximum score, statistically) and the MS provides him three different kinds of one-shot attacks. The 3rd Raikage has to be faster than his eyes AND capable of dodging them without looking at them to avoid his Genjutsu, and this doesn't even take into account Itachi's ability to clone feint and catch him from behind.

There is almost no chance the Raikage can win this, unless Itachi fucks up bad.



> None of itachi's jutsu can harm him, as for the Amaterasu, he can use his speed to avoid it.



The 3rd Raikage has no way to sense chakra and he can't see the Jutsu being used if he is trying not to look in Itachi's eyes.

In addition, he is not so fast that he can escape Itachi's vision, so there is no hope of outrunning Amaterasu even if he starts running first.



> Tsku is NOT automatic, itachi will need to catch the 3rd as madara did with A, and that's no happening.



That is not necessary; if the Raikage is not avoiding eye-contact at all times, he will be hit with the Jutsu, and the intel he has been given is very general and puts him in effectively the same position as part I Kakashi. We all saw how that turned out.



> The 3rd can fight for 3 days, but itachi with his kid's chakra level won't last for long.



The fight won't last more than a couple of minutes.



> bad match up, the 3rd wins med difficult at most.



No, this goes on until Itachi decides to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. Then the 3rd Raikage dies to whichever one he doesn't anticipate.


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## Trojan (Nov 24, 2013)

> [=Nikushimi;49043672]T
> I don't think I have ever seen you conclude that Itachi wins a match. Any match. Ever.
> You always side with his opponent and say his Jutsu are either dodged or ineffective.


But how can you blame me? 
it's not my fault that people put him in such ridiculous matches like
he's against all the sannin at the same time, Naruto, Minato, Kabuto, Sasuke, madara, even 
obito!  





> You know Itachi is an extremely powerful/dangerous shinobi, right? He's very fast in his own right (maximum score, statistically) and the MS provides him three different kinds of one-shot attacks. The 3rd Raikage has to be faster than his eyes AND capable of dodging them without looking at them to avoid his Genjutsu, and this doesn't even take into account Itachi's ability to clone feint and catch him from behind.


1- Ok, I don't disagree with the irst part!
- People are the ones that make his MS jutsu as one,shot and that's different from reality! 
the Amatersu did not defeat anyone in this manga, not even a samurai! 
his Tsku landed only 1 time against kakashi, and that's it, later on Sasuke destroyed it! 
his susanoo is not going to work against the 3rd as well.

2- AGAIN, the genjutsu is NOT automatic! itachi is not faster than the 3rd either. 
catch him by what? What his clone is going to do exactly? 
scratch his back? 


> There is almost no chance the Raikage can win this, unless Itachi fucks up bad.




no comment. 


> The 3rd Raikage has no way to sense chakra and he can't see the Jutsu being used if he is trying not to look in Itachi's eyes.



why would he want to look into his eyes in the first place? 
I did not see him staring at Naruto's eyes or the others' so why would he do that here? 


> In addition, he is not so fast that he can escape Itachi's vision, so there is no hope of outrunning Amaterasu even if he starts running first.



Even Gaara's sand did that, and it is not as fast as the 3rd. 


> That is not necessary; if the Raikage is not avoiding eye-contact at all times, he will be hit with the Jutsu, and the intel he has been given is very general and puts him in effectively the same position as part I Kakashi. We all saw how that turned out.



No, Kakashi thought his sharingan will be enough, and that's his own conclusion. 
The 3rd does not have a sharingan to think that will protect him. Also, even if itachi somehow
succeeded, he still can't do anything to the 3rd who will eventually break the genjutsu.  


> The fight won't last more than a couple of minutes.


no comment. 



> No, this goes on until Itachi decides to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. Then the 3rd Raikage dies to whichever one he doesn't anticipate.


- Tsuk won't land and neither do the Amate because of the different in speed. 

- The 3rd can stay away from itachi who his jutsus are only 5 m long at most. 
Or he can spam the black lightning the entire weak, and itachi will die.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

Elia said:


> But how can you blame me?
> it's not my fault that people put him in such ridiculous matches like
> he's against all the sannin at the same time, Naruto, Minato, Kabuto, Sasuke, madara, even
> obito!



The 3rd Raikage isn't even on the same level as any of those guys, so what is your excuse right now?



> 1- Ok, I don't disagree with the irst part!
> - People are the ones that make his MS jutsu as one,shot and that's different from reality!



Actually, it isn't; most shinobi are dead meat if they get hit with ANY of Itachi's MS Jutsu. Only those with special counters or assistance from other shinobi can deal with them.



> the Amatersu did not defeat anyone in this manga, not even a samurai!



Yeah, and animated X-Men Wolverine and 4Kids One Piece dub Zolo never cut anybody with their blades. That doesn't mean they can't do it.

Amaterasu has burned through Gamaguchi Shibari and Kumo Nenkin, so it can damn sure burn through human flesh. Why else would the 4th Raikage chop off his own arm to get away from it? For laughs?

It KILLED Danzou and triggered Izanagi to undo the event. Karin and a fodder samurai were rescued from it, implying that it is dangerous and they couldn't do anything about it by themselves.

Just because there are ways to deal with Amaterasu doesn't mean Amaterasu isn't a threat; it is a HUGE threat if any of those ways to deal with it aren't available.



> his Tsku landed only 1 time against kakashi, and that's it, later on Sasuke destroyed it!



Sasuke also reversed Orochimaru's Fushi Tensei, which Oro thought was impossible. Sasuke is a very special case, and he has Sharingan, which the Raikage does not have.



> his susanoo is not going to work against the 3rd as well.



That's impossible to say without knowing the penetrative limits of the Totsuka no Tsurugi. Even if it can't hurt the Raikage, it can still protect Itachi from him as needed.



> 2- AGAIN, the genjutsu is NOT automatic!



Doesn't have to be. As soon as the Raikage looks in Itachi's eyes, Itachi can hit him with Genjutsu and there's no way he can detect it.



> itachi is not faster than the 3rd either.



He doesn't have to be; he just has to be able to track him visually, which he should be able to do given that he's around KCM Naruto's 1/13th-clone-split speed.



> catch him by what? What his clone is going to do exactly?
> scratch his back?



Hit him with Amaterasu.



> why would he want to look into his eyes in the first place?
> I did not see him staring at Naruto's eyes or the others' so why would he do that here?



It's not really a conscious action. Kakashi didn't have any reason to do it, either. Nor did Sasuke. Nor did Orochimaru, or Deidara, or Kurenai. Or Naruto. Naruto actually knew he wasn't supposed to do it and he still did it.

Humans make eye-contact all the time when they interact, without even realizing it. It's instinctive and impossible to miss unless you try to avoid doing it, and it's still not easy (as Asuma and Sakura independently pointed out).



> Even Gaara's sand did that, and it is not as fast as the 3rd.



Gaara's sand never outran Itachi's vision and it never outran Amaterasu, either; it blocked Sasuke's Enton when the sand was already floating around Gaara- he just had to move it within a meter or two of himself before the Jutsu was used.



> No, Kakashi thought his sharingan will be enough, and that's his own conclusion.
> The 3rd does not have a sharingan to think that will protect him.



Neither did any of Itachi's other opponents besides Sasuke, but they still fell for it.



> Also, even if itachi somehow
> succeeded, he still can't do anything to the 3rd who will eventually break the genjutsu.



Amaterasu will kill the Raikage, although I'm not sure how the Raikage is going to break the Genjutsu by himself when he has no Genjutsu resistance feats, no known experience with the Uchiha clan, and fights almost exclusively with his physical abilities.

You have to realize that you're not giving Itachi fair treatment, here. Not only are you saying he's too slow to hit the Raikage, you're also saying it wouldn't do anything even if he could. And I know you know that that's not true, because otherwise, you wouldn't be emphasizing that the Raikage dodges everything; there's no need to dodge what can't hurt him.

You don't have to go to such lengths to deny Itachi the win. It's okay to at least admit he has a chance.



> - Tsuk won't land and neither do the Amate because of the different in speed.



There is little or no difference in speed, based on Itachi's ability to keep up with Naruto at 1/13 his full power.

If speed were a problem, Itachi can use clone feints to catch the Raikage from a blind spot, like I already pointed out to you. So that's no excuse.



> - The 3rd can stay away from itachi who his jutsus are only 5 m long at most.



The Totsuka no Tsurugi is longer than 15m (the third databook lists Susano'o as long-range/all-range) and Amaterasu can be formed or guided outside of 5m.

A Jutsu's range listing in the databook DOES NOT denote the limit of its reach, necessarily.

In addition, the Raikage's range is limited to the length of his Nukite, which is much smaller than 5m; if he stays outside of that range, he can't hit Itachi.



> Or he can spam the black lightning the entire weak, and itachi will die.



There are things Itachi can do to get around this, like switching out with a clone to distract the Raikage while the real one sneaks up from a blind spot, or spamming Magatama right back at him, blocking the Raikage's view with the impact and creating a chance to rush him. Goukakyuu would also be a good way to break line of sight, and then Itachi can use the same trick he pulled against Naruto and B to jump real high and come down on top of the Raikage with an attack.


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## Vice (Nov 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That only happened after Sasuke broke Itachi's Tsukuyomi and his reflexes were compromised.
> 
> I don't believe you didn't know that already. So why did you even say this?



Because Itachi's speed feats are being wanked to the extreme here. Hebi Sasuke kept up with him just fine, Nagato completely fodderizes him when it comes to reaction time and Kabuto managed to land several hits on Itachi and there's nothing to suggest that the Raikage can't replicate these feats. Hell, A knocked MS Sasuke around like nothing, there is no way Itachi is that much faster than him.



> Only one person has dodged Amaterasu (the 4th Raikage)



Okay. If A did it, why can't the third?



> No, Hebi Sasuke started running before Itachi used Amaterasu and still got hit with it.



Eventually. If Sasuke can react to Amaterasu before it's fired off, then I see no reason why the third can't with his vastly superior speed.



> Karin has a healing factor and only survived because Sasuke stopped the flames.



Just saying. Third has Lightning Release Armor and superior speed and yet the Amaterasu and it's laughable feats continue to be wanked here for no reason.



> The fact that Sasuke needed a rigged shuriken to land a hit on Itachi even after breaking his Tsukuyomi does suggest that Itachi was faster than Sasuke. And their stats at the time reflect this.



Okay, are we now making fun of Sasuke's versatility?

And I'm pretty sure Raikage is faster than any rigged shuriken anyway.



> Not speed-wise.



Everything-wise. Don't start comparing Itachi to Madara in anything because I don't have the patience or desire to even entertain this kind of wank.



> That Bijuu couldn't use Genjutsu or Amaterasu.



And? It's a monstrosity that is capable of taking out villages yet couldn't manage to even injure the third.

Any kind of claim that Itachi could physically hurt the Raikage should be promptly laughed at and ignored. 



> I don't think I have ever seen you conclude that Itachi wins a match. Any match. Ever.



Like he said, Itachi is always put into match-ups he has no hope of winning. Just because his fanbase wanks him all the time doesn't mean everyone else has to.



> You always side with his opponent and say his Jutsu are either dodged or ineffective.



Isn't that exactly what his fanbase says? Why are you bitching about it now?



> You know Itachi is an extremely powerful/dangerous shinobi, right?



Sure he is. He's also built as a 1-on-1 fighter. Don't whine when people correctly assume he isn't beating the sannin or kages by himself.



> He's very fast in his own right (maximum score, statistically)



Sure he is. He's inferior in speed to a lot of people though, including the third. 



> and the MS provides him three different kinds of one-shot attacks.



I mean yeah, if we're considering fanfiction wank. 



> The 3rd Raikage has to be faster than his eyes AND capable of dodging them without looking at them to avoid his Genjutsu



Not seeing the problem here. A did it just fine, the third is at least as fast.



> and this doesn't even take into account Itachi's ability to clone feint and catch him from behind.



With what? He isn't breaching Lightning Armor.



> There is almost no chance the Raikage can win this, unless Itachi fucks up bad.



Laughable. And you wonder why people could possibly loathe this character.



> The 3rd Raikage has no way to sense chakra and he can't see the Jutsu being used if he is trying not to look in Itachi's eyes.



Sasuke couldn't sense chakra either and he knew it was coming.

And the third has vastly superior speed and reflexes.



> In addition, he is not so fast that he can escape Itachi's vision, so there is no hope of outrunning Amaterasu even if he starts running first.



And why couldn't he? I mean, you're just saying he can't when the manga has provided plenty of evidence to suggest that Itachi's speed can be easily overcome. 



> That is not necessary; if the Raikage is not avoiding eye-contact at all times, he will be hit with the Jutsu



What jutsu? Itachi has to penetrate lightning armor. Fucking shuriken and clone feints ain't going to do shit.



> and the intel he has been given is very general and puts him in effectively the same position as part I Kakashi. We all saw how that turned out.



So Raikage has the Sharingan and is intentionally going to try and tank Sharingan genjutsu now? Because it isn't the same.



> The fight won't last more than a couple of minutes.



Again, fucking laughable. 



> No, this goes on until Itachi decides to use Tsukuyomi



He has to catch the third to perform it. Nothing in canon suggests he can do that.



> or Amaterasu



Laughs it off like everyone else does.



> Then the 3rd Raikage dies to whichever one he doesn't anticipate.



So is the third just standing there with his thumb up his ass or something? I swear every time one of these match-ups against Itachi is posted, his fans answer as if they believe Itachi is the only one allowed to move or go on the offensive at all.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

Vice said:


> Because Itachi's speed feats are being wanked to the extreme here.



So that's your excuse? "Other people are behaving poorly, so I'll behave poorly, too"?

Way to take the low ground.



> Hebi Sasuke kept up with him just fine, Nagato completely fodderizes him when it comes to reaction time and Kabuto managed to land several hits on Itachi and there's nothing to suggest that the Raikage can't replicate these feats. Hell, A knocked MS Sasuke around like nothing, there is no way Itachi is that much faster than him.



I don't disagree but I'm not seeing how it applies to this match, either. Itachi should be able to dodge the 3rd Raikage and use Susano'o to block whenever he can't.



> Okay. If A did it, why can't the third?



The 3rd's Shunshin was never hyped to the same level as A's, no one said he was as fast as A, and he doesn't have the same feat as A. Consequently, there is no reason to just transfer the feat, although you're obviously welcome to offer suggestions if you can think of any.



> Eventually. If Sasuke can react to Amaterasu before it's fired off, then I see no reason why the third can't with his vastly superior speed.



Because he has to look at Itachi's eyes to see it coming, and that means he eats Tsukuyomi.

For that matter, it will still hit him, "eventually," unless he can find an environmental obstruction to dive behind before it catches up.



> Just saying.



No- no "just saying." What you said is completely indefensible, and the only thing you should do is retract the claim.



> Third has Lightning Release Armor and superior speed and yet the Amaterasu and it's laughable feats continue to be wanked here for no reason.



Lightning armor didn't protect the other Raikage, and a Jutsu that can destroy a Bijuu's body is by no means "laughable." Amaterasu has plenty of good feats; there just happen to be a lot of counters for it out there in the endless sea of Jutsu and physical abilities. It's not unique in that respect.



> Okay, are we now making fun of Sasuke's versatility?



No. I don't know what gave you that impression.



> And I'm pretty sure Raikage is faster than any rigged shuriken anyway.



You're missing the point of the rigged _*trap*_ shuriken.

Itachi did dodge it, initially; its speed wasn't the reason he got hit.

Incidentally, Zetsu said Itachi could've avoided the follow-up shot at his peak, but I'm sure you knew that already.



> Everything-wise. Don't start comparing Itachi to Madara in anything because I don't have the patience or desire to even entertain this kind of wank.



In terms of physical ability, there's no obvious difference. In terms of Genjutsu, Madara's best feat is controlling the Kyuubi. Itachi never performed that feat himself, so I can't fault you for holding Madara in a higher regard, but don't ignore that the manga says this is an innate power of the Mangekyou Sharingan, not a unique ability of Madara's; Obito could do it, too. Sasuke, to a limited extent, could influence the Kyuubi before he even obtained MS. Don't be so quick to sell Itachi short; he still has Tsukuyomi up his sleeve, which is on a completely different level from standard Sharingan Genjutsu and bypasses the partner method (which Madara's Genjutsu could not do). Itachi is also the only shinobi known to be capable of controlling targets outside the range of sensor shinobi. There are things he's better than Madara at doing and some things he can do that Madara flat-out can't, if you're willing to set aside personal preference and look at their abilities.



> And? It's a monstrosity that is capable of taking out villages yet couldn't manage to even injure the third.



That's impossible to say; the 3rd looked pretty beat-up in the Hachibi's flashback. It doesn't really matter, though; the Hachibi doesn't have any attacks like Amaterasu.

It can't use Genjutsu, either. As durable as the Raikage's body may be, his mind is unprotected.



> Any kind of claim that Itachi could physically hurt the Raikage should be promptly laughed at and ignored.



Horse laughter is a non-argumentative act of ignorance, and laughing at that which you willfully choose to be ignorant of is just hypocrisy.

You're only perpetuating your own opposition to what you don't like. Needlessly.

It's fine if that's your choice, but don't go blaming other people for it. It's entirely your own mistake.



> Like he said, Itachi is always put into match-ups he has no hope of winning.



Itachi has very good chances of winning this match-up.



> Just because his fanbase wanks him all the time doesn't mean everyone else has to.



It doesn't mean you have to lie and go out of your way to act like a complete tool any time someone mentions him, either.



> Isn't that exactly what his fanbase says? Why are you bitching about it now?



Because it's false, and demonstrably so.



> Sure he is. He's also built as a 1-on-1 fighter. Don't whine when people correctly assume he isn't beating the sannin or kages by himself.



Itachi is perfectly capable of fighting multiple opponents, provided there is enough difference in ability between him and them. That's irrelevant to this match, though; the Raikage has no backup.



> Sure he is. He's inferior in speed to a lot of people though, including the third.



Debatable, but the difference isn't big either way.



> I mean yeah, if we're considering fanfiction wank.



I can't tell if you're still trolling or just being dense. It isn't fan fiction to say that the MS Jutsu are one-hitter-quitters. You take Tsukuyomi without a high-level Doujutsu, you go down. You take Amaterasu without a means to escape or suppress it, you go down. You take the Totsuka no Tsurugi...period, you go in the bottle. Anyone can avoid Tsukuyomi by not looking in Itachi's eyes, but there are very few shinobi who can do that and still fight Itachi, and even fewer who can do that AND handle the other two MS Jutsu. The 3rd Raikage isn't one of them.



> Not seeing the problem here. A did it just fine, the third is at least as fast.



Based on what, exactly?



> With what? He isn't breaching Lightning Armor.



Raiton armor didn't protect the 4th Raikage. Amaterasu burns it up, like it burned Sasuke's Katon; chakra only fuels it.



> Laughable. And you wonder why people could possibly loathe this character.



I'm not here to patronize you or console you, so I have no interest in that.

It isn't laughable. The 3rd Raikage can't win this unless Itachi's MS Jutsu are all ineffective (which can't be verified because they've never been tested on him) AND he suddenly forgets how to clone feint.

Taking a more realistic look at the match-up, the 3rd is dead meat if he gets hit with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu and Itachi has very good chances of landing at least one of those. Ergo, Itachi's not going to lose unless he performs poorly, and Itachi's not the type to perform poorly given how sharp he is.



> Sasuke couldn't sense chakra either and he knew it was coming.



Sasuke had Sharingan and already proved that Tsukuyomi can't take him down. He had also seen Itachi use Amaterasu on his Katon already.



> And the third has vastly superior speed and reflexes.



Not really. He might be faster and have better reflexes, but any difference between them is not that big; Hebi Sasuke, Itachi, and KCM Naruto's clone at 1/13 his full chakra are all close enough in speed to give each other a decent match in hand-to-hand, and that KCM clone could fight the 3rd.



> And why couldn't he? I mean, you're just saying he can't when the manga has provided plenty of evidence to suggest that Itachi's speed can be easily overcome.



What evidence would that be? There are only a few shinobi who are faster than Itachi at all, so how is it exactly that overcoming his speed would be "easy"? For the 4th Raikage, Minato, and KCM Naruto at full power, yeah, that's true, but they are the absolute best of the best among speedsters and we're not talking about them.

Even their speed doesn't prevent them from falling for clone feints, either.



> What jutsu? Itachi has to penetrate lightning armor. Fucking shuriken and clone feints ain't going to do shit.



I was referring to Amaterasu.



> So Raikage has the Sharingan and is intentionally going to try and tank Sharingan genjutsu now? Because it isn't the same.



He doesn't have to try; it's not exactly difficult to fall for Sharingan Genjutsu.



> Again, fucking laughable.



Why do you say that? The 3rd Raikage can't look at Itachi's eyes without risking Tsukuyomi and he can't avoid Amaterasu without looking at Itachi's eyes. The speed difference isn't so great that Itachi is completely unable to hit the Raikage, and Itachi's ability to clone feint negates any problems with that anyway. Taking all of this into consideration, the match isn't going to last very long.



> He has to catch the third to perform it. Nothing in canon suggests he can do that.



He doesn't have to "catch" anyone to perform Tsukuyomi; he can do it as soon as the Raikage makes eye contact. If the Raikage doesn't make eye contact, Itachi can hit him with Amaterasu instead.



> Laughs it off like everyone else does.



Karin, the fodder samurai, the Hachibi Bijuu, and the other Raikage weren't laughing.

Vice, what you're saying is patently stupid and inconsistent with the source material. You keep bitching about how bad other people are, but you're being dishonest on purpose.



> So is the third just standing there with his thumb up his ass or something? I swear every time one of these match-ups against Itachi is posted, his fans answer as if they believe Itachi is the only one allowed to move or go on the offensive at all.



This is ironic considering you don't seem to think Itachi is capable of hitting the Raikage, or even that his moves will have any effect on the Raikage.

In contrast, I haven't denied the Raikage's ability to move. I haven't denied his ability to avoid eye-contact. I haven't denied his ability to see Amaterasu activating and start running first. I've suggested ways Itachi can work around these things to defeat the Raikage; you have suggested that Itachi is simply inadequate for catching the Raikage or doing damage to him, no matter what he does. There's a difference.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Nov 24, 2013)

Itachi catches raikage in sasunoos hand grip then amaterasus raikages face


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 24, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> Itachi catches raikage in sasunoos hand grip then amaterasus raikages face



While I've no doubt Itachi can successfully land an Amaterasu on the likes of the Third Raikage, Susano'o's hand grip is by no means powerful enough to bind someone as physically powerful as him. When it comes to strength feats, Susano'o in general (excluding the Perfect form, of course) are extremely underwhelming.


----------



## Vice (Nov 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> So that's your excuse? "Other people are behaving poorly, so I'll behave poorly, too"?
> 
> Way to take the low ground.



So because it's Itachi I'm just supposed to fall in line and accept the bullshit?

No.



> I don't disagree but I'm not seeing how it applies to this match, either.



I compare Itachi to other speedsters in the manga and how he falls short and you don't see how it applies to this match. Yes, that is the problem here.



> Itachi should be able to dodge the 3rd Raikage



So he should just because you say so? 



> and use Susano'o to block whenever he can't.



If the only thing he can do is put Susanoo up to block the Raikage's speed, then he isn't outlasting the dude. Simple as that.



> The 3rd's Shunshin was never hyped to the same level as A's, no one said he was as fast as A, and he doesn't have the same feat as A.



Sure it was. Naruto directly compared them.



> Consequently, there is no reason to just transfer the feat, although you're obviously welcome to offer suggestions if you can think of any.



Considering he's vastly faster and more durable than Itachi, I don't think any other suggestions are necessary.



> Because he has to look at Itachi's eyes to see it coming, and that means he eats Tsukuyomi.



Why does he have to look in Itachi's eyes at all? What's stopping him from just blitzing Itachi with his superior speed?

Why does it seem like a requirement for everyone in a match-up against Itachi to just stare at him? 



> For that matter, it will still hit him, "eventually,"



It'll hit him just because I said it would. Is that is going on here?



> unless he can find an environmental obstruction to dive behind before it catches up.



Or, given the same amount of time that Hebi Sasuke was able to dodge Amaterasu, he blitzes behind Itachi and finishes him off.

Seriously, stop comparing the Uchiha bros. to the Raikage in speed. 



> No- no "just saying." What you said is completely indefensible, and the only thing you should do is retract the claim.



How so? Karin was hit with it and survived it and she doesn't have lightning armor. You guys run around claiming it's a one-shot, insta-kill technique, it's not my fault that you're incapable of accepting it for what it really is.



> Lightning armor didn't protect the other Raikage



No, he just cut off the part that was damaged and proceeded to keep pinballing. No reason the third can't do the same considering his armor is superior.



> and a Jutsu that can destroy a Bijuu's body is by no means "laughable."



And the third can tank attacks from a bijuu and only got hurt by his own technique. Who cares?



> Amaterasu has plenty of good feats; there just happen to be a lot of counters for it out there in the endless sea of Jutsu and physical abilities. It's not unique in that respect.



Like speed, which the third has.

Like lightning armor, which the third has.



> No. I don't know what gave you that impression.



Good, just checking.



> You're missing the point of the rigged _*trap*_ shuriken.
> 
> Itachi did dodge it, initially; its speed wasn't the reason he got hit.



But he didn't dodge it.



> Incidentally, Zetsu said Itachi could've avoided the follow-up shot at his peak, but I'm sure you knew that already.



And it doesn't matter because the third is faster than both.



> In terms of physical ability, there's no obvious difference. In terms of Genjutsu, Madara's best feat is controlling the Kyuubi. Itachi never performed that feat himself, so I can't fault you for holding Madara in a higher regard, but don't ignore that the manga says this is an innate power of the Mangekyou Sharingan, not a unique ability of Madara's; Obito could do it, too. Sasuke, to a limited extent, could influence the Kyuubi before he even obtained MS. Don't be so quick to sell Itachi short; he still has Tsukuyomi up his sleeve, which is on a completely different level from standard Sharingan Genjutsu and bypasses the partner method (which Madara's Genjutsu could not do). Itachi is also the only shinobi known to be capable of controlling targets outside the range of sensor shinobi. There are things he's better than Madara at doing and some things he can do that Madara flat-out can't, if you're willing to set aside personal preference and look at their abilities.



I told you I didn't have the patience for anyone trying to compare Itachi to Madara, so I'm skipping this bullshit for my own sanity.



> That's impossible to say; the 3rd looked pretty beat-up in the Hachibi's flashback. It doesn't really matter, though; the Hachibi doesn't have any attacks like Amaterasu.



Lol Karin survived it.

Lol Fodder survived it.

And you're right, the third could only stand up to a bijuu by himself. The same bijuu that can level mountains and take out villages. Itachi and his little kunai and shuriken tricks should be able to replicate these feats.



> It can't use Genjutsu, either. As durable as the Raikage's body may be, his mind is unprotected.



Good thing he has superior speed then. 



> Horse laughter is a non-argumentative act of ignorance, and laughing at that which you willfully choose to be ignorant of is just hypocrisy.
> 
> You're only perpetuating your own opposition to what you don't like. Needlessly.
> 
> It's fine if that's your choice, but don't go blaming other people for it. It's entirely your own mistake.



Whatever helps you sleep at night, but if you continue to claim that Itachi can physically replicate that which even a bijuu was incapable of doing, then I will continue to laugh at you because you deserve to be laughed at.



> Itachi has very good chances of winning this match-up.



I mean sure, if the third just stands there staring at him letting Itachi get all the offense in.



> It doesn't mean you have to lie and go out of your way to act like a complete tool any time someone mentions him, either.



Quit with the unnecessary and unearned wank and I wouldn't act that way. I like how you take this moral stance with me because I'm anti-Itachi, yet don't say a word to anyone else when they run around acting like trolls in favor of him.



> Because it's false, and demonstrably so.



But perfectly A-Okay when his fanbase does the same thing?

Shut up dude, don't take a stand one way and completely justify the same thing just because the other way happens to be pro-Itachi. I don't want to hear it.



> Itachi is perfectly capable of fighting multiple opponents, provided there is enough difference in ability between him and them.



Sure. Mostly those below Kage level.



> That's irrelevant to this match, though; the Raikage has no backup.



He doesn't need it.



> Debatable, but the difference isn't big either way.



It isn't debatable any way, least of all just because you say it is. The third has the feats to say he's faster.



> I can't tell if you're still trolling or just being dense. It isn't fan fiction to say that the MS Jutsu are one-hitter-quitters.



Sure, if you're a Zetsu clone or something.



> You take Tsukuyomi without a high-level Doujutsu, you go down. You take Amaterasu without a means to escape or suppress it, you go down.



Or superior speed. Which Raikage has.



> You take the Totsuka no Tsurugi...period, you go in the bottle.



Proof that Totsuka can pierce lightning armor, please?



> Anyone can avoid Tsukuyomi by not looking in Itachi's eyes, but there are very few shinobi who can do that and still fight Itachi, and even fewer who can do that AND handle the other two MS Jutsu. The 3rd Raikage isn't one of them.



Sure he can. A did it.



> Based on what, exactly?



Based on the manga. 



> Raiton armor didn't protect the 4th Raikage. Amaterasu burns it up, like it burned Sasuke's Katon; chakra only fuels it.



The third's armor is stronger, and he's as fast. Still not seeing the problem here.



> I'm not here to patronize you or console you, so I have no interest in that.



Cool.



> It isn't laughable. The 3rd Raikage can't win this unless Itachi's MS Jutsu are all ineffective (which can't be verified because they've never been tested on him)



Of course he can't if you continue to ignore his speed and durability advantage. 



> AND he suddenly forgets how to clone feint.



lol.



> Taking a more realistic look at the match-up, the 3rd is dead meat if he gets hit with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu



Which is a good thing that he's significantly faster and more durable and has a far higher stamina pool than Itachi.



> and Itachi has very good chances of landing at least one of those.



Just because I said so despite the manga showing otherwise. 



> Ergo, Itachi's not going to lose unless he performs poorly, which is uncharacteristic of him because he's one of the more competent fighters in the manga.



If Kabuto can bisect Itachi and if A can knock around MS Sasuke, then there is no reason why the third can't do the same.



> Sasuke had Sharingan and already proved that Tsukuyomi can't take him down. He had also seen Itachi use Amaterasu on his Katon already.



A didn't have the sharingan, he dodged it.



> Not really. He's faster and has better reflexes



Yes. Nothing else needs to be said.



> but the difference is not that big



Because I said so.



> Hebi Sasuke, Itachi, and KCM Naruto's clone at 1/13 his full chakra are all close enough in speed to give each other a decent match in hand-to-hand.



What does any of this have to do with the third? 



> What evidence would that be?





Naruto directly comparing their speed.



> There are only a few shinobi who are faster than Itachi at all, so how is it exactly that overcoming his speed would be "easy"?



Hebi Sasuke kept up with him. Nagato fodderizes him. Kabuto bisected him.

The third is faster than all of them.


----------



## Vice (Nov 24, 2013)

> For the 4th Raikage, Minato, and KCM Naruto at full power, yeah, that's true, but they are the absolute best of the best among speedsters and we're not talking about them.



lol. Comparing Itachi to them.

This is what I mean when I refer to unsubstantiated wank.



> I was referring to Amaterasu.



Third blitzes or outright tanks.



> He doesn't have to try; it's not exactly difficult to fall for Sharingan Genjutsu.



Sure it is if your opponent is significantly faster.



> Why do you say that? The 3rd Raikage can't look at Itachi's eyes



Why is it a prerequisite that everyone has to stare Itachi right in the eyes in these match-ups?



> without risking Tsukuyomi



The burden of casting Tsukuyomi is on Itachi to stop the third's movements to be able to cast in on him, the third doesn't have to stand there and allow Itachi to do anything. 



> and he can't avoid Amaterasu without looking at Itachi's eyes.



Why couldn't he? A did it.



> The speed difference isn't so great that Itachi is completely unable to hit the Raikage



You keep saying this despite it being blatantly false. Why?



> and Itachi's ability to clone feint negates any problems with that anyway.



What the fuck is a clone feint going to do for Itachi here? It's almost infuriating that you keep insisting on comparing Itachi's speed to the Raikage.



> Taking all of this into consideration, the match isn't going to last very long.



You're right. With blood lust set up, Raikage sees Itachi's douchey little face and has to listen to his hypocritical preaching, gets pissed off and blitzes.



> He doesn't have to "catch" anyone to perform Tsukuyomi; he can do it as soon as the Raikage makes eye contact.



Raikage doesn't have to make eye contact at all.

And if it was as simple as that, he'd be doing it to everyone in this manga, right?



> If the Raikage doesn't make eye contact, Itachi can hit him with Amaterasu instead.



Dodges it like A did.



> Karin, the fodder samurai, the Hachibi Bijuu, and the other Raikage weren't laughing.



No, they just all survived this insta-win-one-hitter-quitter-technique.



> Vice, what you're saying is patently stupid and inconsistent with the source material. You keep bitching about how bad other people are, but you're being dishonest on purpose.



And what is it when you keep saying Itachi is as fast as the Raikage?

What is it when you keep insisting that Itachi can physically do what a bijuu couldn't?



> This is ironic considering you don't seem to think Itachi is capable of hitting the Raikage, or even that his moves will have any effect on the Raikage.



Because he's faster, and can dodge. 



> In contrast, I haven't denied the Raikage's ability to move. I haven't denied his ability to avoid eye-contact. I haven't denied his ability to see Amaterasu activating and start running first. I've suggested ways Itachi can work around these things to defeat the Raikage



No, you just keep insisting that Itachi is as fast as the third with no evidence and with the manga making it perfectly clear that it isn't true. You also keep insisting that these insta-kill-one-hit jutsus that people have SURVIVED in canon, will somehow hurt a person who fought the Hachibi by himself on more than one occasion.



> you have suggested that Itachi is simply inadequate for defeating the Raikage, no matter what he does. There's a difference.



Yes, there clearly is. I'm giving you manga examples to suggest why I feel the way I do, you're saying Itachi wins just because. Huge difference.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Now that Sandaime has been given general knowledge on Itachi's MS jutsu, it isn't a decisive win for Itachi.

Tsukuyomi's chances of landing are next to none as despite fighting 5 V3 legged Susanoos for hours, the only gokage to get hit with an MS genjutsu was Ei and it was only made possible when his attention was drawn by tsunade.  There is no tsunade in this thread and itachi definitely can't create the equivalent of pressure that 5 v3 susanoos inflict.  Finally, if you look at pretty much any genjutsu feat of itachis, he always does it against an opponent who has zero knowledge on the genjutsu that hit them or zero intention of avoiding eye contact.  

Deidara? zero knowledge
Orochimaru? Zero knowlege 
Kakashi? Tried to challenge itachi
Naruto? Zero knowledge on finger genjutsu
Naruto? Zero knowledge on the crow
Sasuke? Tried to challenge itachi
Bee? Didn't care.
Kabuto? Zero knowledge on izanami.

Sandaime raikage can't outright dodge amaterasu, but he does have time to get behind a rock pillar once he sees the blood drip from itachi's eye if he is close enough.  Even if he gets hit with it though, the match is far from over as Ei's far less durable arm wasn't even slightly damaged after being burned for minutes.  In addition to that, this is assumed to be sick itachi, thus he severely feels the affects of MS jutsu after their use and would be very vulnerable to attacks from a guy as fast as Sandaime raikage.

Susanoo gets skewered by the 1 finger nukite unless yaata is given no limits.  Danzou's fuuton blew open the back of sasuke's V3 susanoo, and that's a fuuton that's not even on the same level as the 50% FRS Naruto used against Kakuzu let alone the KCM one that Sandaime took without much visual damage.  
1 finger nukite >>> KCM FRS >>>> 50% base FRS >> Danzou's fuuton = a human sized hole in 2 layers of susanoo.  Totsuka isn't piercing Sandaime raikage when it's hyped to be the alternate of the kusanagi sword, has no feats of penetrating anything that's super durable, and it's blade is so dull that Susanoo can grab it without sustaining damage.

And of course, Sandaime raikage can hold his most powerful form pretty much all day while itachi drops to his knees and coughs up blood after using 3 MS jutsu which plays a huge factor in a fight where itachi's only hope other than the slim chance of landing a sharingan genjutsu is to hit him with amaterasu and outlast the guy.

conclusion: Itachi has a slight chance of victory, but most likely he ends up getting shanked after being forced to use MS jutsus and Sandaime ends up burned to death from amaterasu.


----------



## Baroxio (Nov 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:
			
		

> Gaara's sand never outran Itachi's vision and it never outran Amaterasu, either; *it blocked Sasuke's Enton when the sand was already floating around Gaara- he just had to move it within a meter or two of himself before the Jutsu was used*.



The bolded is incorrect.

Gaara never blocked Sasukes Enton, on the contrary, it is Sasuke who is blocking Gaara's attack.

Furthermore, Enton is the existing manipulation of already existing flames, it is not the same as Amaterasu which spawns flame where the user looks.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> Totsuka isn't piercing Sandaime raikage when it's hyped to be the alternate of the kusanagi sword, *has no feats of penetrating anything that's super durable*, and it's blade is so dull that Susanoo can grab it without sustaining damage.



Also incorrect.

Itachi's Totsuka cleanly sliced through Kabuto's Sage powered Sawarbi no Mai, made from a kekkai genkai that's been heralded as one of the greatest defensive techniques in the manga.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Itachi's Totsuka cleanly sliced through Kabuto's Sage powered Sawarbi no Mai, made from a kekkai genkai that's been heralded as one of the greatest defensive techniques in the manga.


And Kabuto also got through Susanoo multiple times.


Until it has feats that suggest it can get through to Raikage...then no. Amaterasu burns so slow it would never get through the armor.


The only one who can defeat the Raikage is the Raikage  :blindraikage


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Itachi's Totsuka cleanly sliced through Kabuto's Sage powered Sawarbi no Mai, made from a kekkai genkai that's been heralded as one of the greatest defensive techniques in the manga.



Right, 'one of the greatest defensive techniques in the manga' also got cut halfways by a fodder Samurai's chakra-infused sword, so I'm not really going to put much stock into that, senjutsu-powered or not.

On the other hand, the Third Raikage shrugged off a technique that made someone as powerful as Kurama scream in pain.

Which one do you think is more impressive?


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## Sadgoob (Nov 24, 2013)

Do the math. We know that the Samurai technique can hold off a Chidori sword that otherwise cuts through steel. Which makes sense, since Kimimaro's bones were said to be beyond steel.

So the Totsuka cut through dozens of meters of steel-like material quite easily, which corroborates its manga and DB hype.​


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 24, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Do the math. We know that the Samurai technique can hold off a Chidori sword that otherwise cuts through steel. Which makes sense, since Kimimaro's bones were said to be beyond steel.
> 
> So the Totsuka cut through dozens of meters of steel-like material quite easily, which makes sense given its manga and DB hype.​



Oh, I'm aware of what Susano'o _accomplished_, I'm simply saying that said feat alone is nowhere enough to claim it can hurt the Third.

Given, you know, tanking a city-level Rasenshuriken.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 24, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Oh, I'm aware of what Susano'o _accomplished_, I'm simply saying that said feat alone is nowhere enough to claim it can hurt the Third.
> 
> Given, you know, tanking a city-level Rasenshuriken.



The explosion feat against Pain doesn't follow any of the Rasenshuriken's other feats. It's not city-level. It's not block level. The Rasenshuriken hasn't destroyed anything better than steel. 

The third Raikage's body was likened to steel. The Totsuka cuts it.​


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

The Sandaime Raikage wins. Far faster than Itachi, can outlast him by leaps and bounds and genjutsu isn't an issue due to the Sandaime's speed. For Madara, a superior Mangekyo user to even catch his son's initial level of speed there were _five_ Susano'o's needed, while Itachi can only produce one which can't even touch the Sandaime. Amaterasu can be outright avoided (Itachi's charge time is as fast as Killer Bee throwing his sword, more than enough time for someone who can casually dodge Futon: Rasenshuriken twice to avoid). Tsukuyomi is a non issue too due to it taking a bit of time for Itachi to build up as well as shown in his battles with Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke. Sword of Totsuka is gonna bounce off the Sandaime's body and Raiton no Yoroi, there's no feats at all to suggest it can pierce someone who can no sell the Futon: Rasenshuriken's cutting power and wind dome simultaneously. The manga just built the Sandaime up to be a far stronger opponent than what Itachi can deal with.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The explosion feat against Pain doesn't follow any of the Rasenshuriken's other feats. It's not city-level. It's not block-level. The Rasenshuriken hasn't destroyed anything superior to steel, and the third Raikage's body was likened to steel. The Totsuka can cut it.
> 
> On the other hand, the Raikage's nukite feat peaks out at steel-like durability, and the fourth level of Susano'o is arguably above that.​



Do you seriously not know the counterarguments to the claims you've just made?


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 24, 2013)

Enlighten me.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 24, 2013)

Vice said:


> Yes, because Itachi is fast enough to do this when he can't even dodge rigged shuriken.



Unless Raikage catches him in mid air while Itachi is suffering the backlash of Tsukiyomi, then yes he is fast enough to dodge him.
Or he can flash activate Susano'o and defend against any kind of attack coming from Raikage if it ever comes down to that.




> Funny, because more people have dodged Amaterasu than FRS.


Its funny because it is wrong.

Hell realm, animal realm, deva realm all dodged FRS @ the same time. Thats 3.
Then Deva dodged it once again later. Thats 4.
Then Raikage dodged it twice, thats 6. 




> Hebi Sasuke outran Amaterasu for quite some time.


Itachi wasn't trying to kill him.
Sasuke started running before Itachi used it.
And even if you discard the first statement, then even as a villain Itachi was going for Sasuke's eyes so he was trying to minimize the damage output.




> This is assuming that Amaterasu could do jack shit to the Raikage here. Karin survived Amaterasu. That's all you need to know about.


Well, Toad Stomach, Sasuke's Cs2 wing, Hachibee, Juubi, Raikage, Nagato, Cerebrus(tanks FRS like its nothing) and some other people I've forgotten couldn't tank it.

So I guess we have to concede that Karin is more durable than all of the above.



> Sasuke got bounced around like a pinball, the fuck are you talking about?



I am talking about the part of manga you didn't read : cutting power and wind dome simultaneously

Actually I am guessing you haven't read the most of it, going by the shitty quality of your posts.

Might want to read it, before posting in BD.




> lol rigged shuriken.


LOL I countered this horseshit above


> Assuming Itachi can catch him. Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi


In terms of what ? Susano'o movement speed ? 

What do you base this claim upon ? 



> Also assuming Raikage can't just break himself free, the dude went head-to-head with Bijuu for fuck's sake.



Break himself free from Susano'o's grasp or from Tsukiyomi ? 
Doesn't matter because I don't see him doing either of those.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Enlighten me.



I will, but ill give Atastymuffin some time to respond because there's a good chance he'll say similar stuff.

@grimmjow

hey how about instead of negging me for making a post, why don't you go and show why that post is worthy of a neg?  If not, then it's basically a concession since you can't even formulate a counterargument to the claims made.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 24, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The explosion feat against Pain doesn't follow any of the Rasenshuriken's other feats. It's not city-level.* It's not block-level.*​




Even if we didn't consider that feat to 'follow any of its other feats', Rasenshuriken is way beyond block-level. The volume of rock it pulverized in the fight against Kakuzu still yielded above a kiloton. That is way beyond simply 'block-level'.

Other than that, I don't see why we wouldn't consider the explosion in the Chibaku Tensei crater valid.



> The Rasenshuriken hasn't destroyed anything superior to steel, and the third Raikage's body was likened to steel. The Totsuka can cut it.



Are you serious? 

Do you honestly seriously believe a human-sized chunk of steel can take an attack that formed a crater dozens of meters deep/wide? 

No steel in this universe can take kiloton-level energy. The fuck are you smoking?

Heck, fodder back in the day of Part 1 (Shigure) had techniques that could pierce steel; Gaara's shield could shrug that off, Chidori could pierce said shield, Part 1 Naruto's Rasengan was equal to it, and a Rasenshuriken from Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto is entire magnitudes above that.

Do you still continue to maintain that the Third has steel-level durability at best?

EDIT: I'm curious to see ueharakk's counterarguments as well. Post them. ​


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## Sadgoob (Nov 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Tsukuyomi's chances of landing are next to none as despite fighting 5 V3 legged Susanoos for hours, the only gokage to get hit with an MS genjutsu



You're seriously arguing that Madara was incapable of getting them in genjutsu, or casually wiping them off the map for that matter, like he would later do without any real exertion?​


ueharakk said:


> Even if he gets hit with it though, the match is far from over as Ei's far less durable arm wasn't even slightly damaged after being burned for minutes.



Use the right character. Itachi's Amaterasu incinerated a fire-resistant toad stomach, Sasuke's Juin Wing, and killed the Cerberus the Rasenshuriken didn't do shit against. Neither Raikage survives.

Itachi was also able to cast it while outspeeding Kisame, so the Raikage running away has very little odds of working against a serious Itachi, because Itachi isn't anchored anywhere when casting.​


ueharakk said:


> Danzou's fuuton blew open the back of sasuke's V3 susanoo, and that's a fuuton that's not even on the same level as the 50% FRS Naruto used against Kakuzu let alone the KCM one that Sandaime took without much visual damage.



A Kage's giant fūton _combined with a Boss Summon's wind jutsu_ is beyond Naruto's Rasenshuriken. Sasuke was also paralyzed by the summon, further mitigating his defense.​ 


ueharakk said:


> conclusion: Itachi has a slight chance of victory, but most likely he ends up getting shanked after being forced to use MS jutsus and Sandaime ends up burned to death from amaterasu.



Correct conclusion: Sandaime Raikage has to avoid Amaterasu and Susano'o with restricted vision against an enemy that's just as fast as he is, and much, much smarter and versatile.

So: finger genjutsu and the Raikage is  stabbing himself. If a Naruto clone beat him with a Rasengan, then you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think Kishi'd have Itachi break a sweat.​


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> You're seriously arguing that Madara was incapable of getting them in genjutsu, or casually wiping them off the map for that matter, like he would later do without any real exertion?​


With the tools he was working with: 5 v3 susanoos, he would be incapable of getting them in genjutsu, which is why the manga showed that it required a distraction to get him in that, and why Ei was so pissed and baffled that he would get caught with a sharingan genjutsu.




Strategoob said:


> Use the right character. Itachi's Amaterasu incinerated a fire-resistant toad stomach, Sasuke's Juin Wing, and killed the Cerberus the Rasenshuriken didn't do shit against. Neither Raikage survives a hit.​


The right character?  I'm pretty sure RnY Ei is far far far more of a representation of how RnY Sandaime raikage is than the fire resistant toad stomach, sasuke's juin win or cereberus are.  In addition to that FRS didn't do anythign to cereberus because attacks that don't persist forever don't do anything to cereberus, they just make it split more and more.




Strategoob said:


> The Kage's fūton combined with a Boss Summons jutsu is beyond Naruto's Rasenshuriken.​


Based on what exactly?  




Strategoob said:


> Correct conclusion: Sandaime Raikage has to avoid Amaterasu and Susano'o with restricted vision against an enemy that's just as fast as he is, and much, much smarter and more versatile.​


[/QUOTE]
What exactly ever implied that itachi is even near the same speed as sandaime raikage or V1 Ei?  

Oh and you should add to your conclusion, "but even if he's hit by amaterasu, Sandaime will have a lot of time to fight due to its poor burning feats against a less durable replica of the guy its trying to burn in this thread, in addition to the fact that Itachi although more versitile is extremely limited 'pp' of his jutsu due to his chakra levels and even if he does have enough chakra for them, he still gets hit with enough feedback that he bends over coughing up blood while his physical abilities (which aren't near sandaime's level) take a dive as well.



Strategoob said:


> So: finger genjutsu and the Raikage is  stabbing himself. If a Naruto clone beat him with a Rasengan, then you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think Kishi'd have Itachi break a sweat.[/indent]


Begining of part 1 base naruto is sandaime raikage level now? A KCM Naruto clone would have defeated sandaime if he wasn't an edo and thus could heal from the FRS.  Plot is what allowed sandaime to lose to the SM Naruto clone, if plot demanded itachi to lose to sandaime raikage for whatever reason, he'd lose, so its a good thing for you that plot doesn't exist in this thread.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> With the tools he was working with: 5 v3 susanoos, he would be incapable of getting them in genjutsu, which is why the manga showed that it required a distraction to get him in that, and why Ei was so pissed and baffled that he would get caught with a sharingan genjutsu.



He said "losing to." As in being shut down. Being caught with a moment of eye contact isn't difficult and Madara definitely could have done so to any of the Kage.

Sage Kabuto was _way_ above them and he opted to immediately  his eyes entirely against Itachi. That says enough the assertion that 5 Madaras were unable to get Mei in a genjutsu _for hours_.

Say that last sentence out loud for me. _Say it_.​


ueharakk said:


> The right character?  I'm pretty sure RnY Ei is far far far more of a representation of how RnY Sandaime raikage is than the fire resistant toad stomach, sasuke's juin win or cereberus are.  In addition to that FRS didn't do anythign to cereberus because attacks that don't persist forever don't do anything to cereberus, they just make it split more and more.



A hit an Enton. That's not the same thing as Amaterasu, which should be obvious. Karen survived an Enton for a bit. Are you doing to argue that she'd keep fighting Itachi if hit by Amaterasu now?​


ueharakk said:


> Based on what exactly?



Based on feats of course. The Rasenshuriken hasn't done anything close to breaking through a v3 Susano'o. You used Kakuzu without his defensive jutsu as an argument, as if it meant something.​


ueharakk said:


> What exactly ever implied that itachi is even near the same speed as sandaime raikage or V1 Ei?



Um, being faster than Sasuke, who was keeping up with v1 A fine and ultimately outmaneuvered him to land a Chidori in the chest? Or how about being faster than Bee, ?

Or how about being able to  and not having his attack casually redirected back into his chest at the last moment? v1 A isn't fast relative to elite Sharingan users.​


----------



## Vice (Nov 24, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Unless Raikage catches him in mid air while Itachi is suffering the backlash of Tsukiyomi, then yes he is fast enough to dodge him.



Based on nothing.



> Or he can flash activate Susano'o and defend against any kind of attack coming from Raikage if it ever comes down to that.



For all of five minutes. Raikage can fight for days.



> Its funny because it is wrong.



I was being hyperbolic, but whatever.



> Hell realm, animal realm, deva realm all dodged FRS @ the same time. Thats 3.
> Then Deva dodged it once again later. Thats 4.
> Then Raikage dodged it twice, thats 6.



All faster than Itachi. Samurai fodder has avoided Amaterasu.

Here's , just because.



> Itachi wasn't trying to kill him.



Then why was he throwing around Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu all over the place?



> Sasuke started running before Itachi used it.



And Raikage can't replicate this because.... ?



> And even if you discard the first statement, then even as a villain Itachi was going for Sasuke's eyes so he was trying to minimize the damage output.



Don't care. Raikage's durability > Hebi Sasuke's.



> Well, Toad Stomach, Sasuke's Cs2 wing, Hachibee, Juubi, Raikage, Nagato, Cerebrus(tanks FRS like its nothing) and some other people I've forgotten couldn't tank it.



All less durable than the Raikage with the exception of Juubi, who didn't even try to dodge.

Raikage's also faster than all of them too.



> So I guess we have to concede that Karin is more durable than all of the above.



Or it has shitty, inconsistent feats and isn't so much the insta-win technique you seem to think it is.



> I am talking about the part of manga you didn't read : isn't fast



K. and then this happened.



> Actually I am guessing you haven't read the most of it, going by the shitty quality of your posts.



Itachi wank. Itachi wank. Itachi wank. Itachi wank.

There, now my posts are as shitty as yours.



> Might want to read it, before posting in BD.



I have. You picked one part of the whole fight, ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE that happened.



> LOL I countered this horseshit above



No you didn't. 



> In terms of what ? Susano'o movement speed ?
> 
> What do you base this claim upon ?



Uh, everything? Madara is clearly far superior than Itachi. Any argument to the contrary is just pure bullshit.



> Break himself free from Susano'o's grasp or from Tsukiyomi ?



Susanoo. Even considering he's too fast to be caught anyway.



> Doesn't matter because I don't see him doing either of those.



Of course you don't, you're an Itachi-tard. Why would you ever grant obvious concessions?


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 24, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The explosion's diameter doesn't cover a block. Simple as that.



Then we're just arguing semantics. Because our definition of 'block-level' vary. You value area-of-effect or the size of explosion; I take volume of the destroyed area.

But its explosion in the Chibaku Tensei crater covered more than a few kilometers, what would you classify that as?



> Jūgo creates craters and Kimimaro with steel-like plates plays with him.



And? Is that supposed to validate your ridiculous, laughably misinformed assertion that steel is durable enough to take craters? It doesn't. Tanks are made of steel, and they can be destroyed by projectiles far less powerful than Jugo's punches, since said projectiles don't render entire craters as deep as his with their impact.

You're a funny guy. By all means, keep entertaining me.

Furthermore, Kimimaro being able to control Jugo isn't indicative of how durable his bones are; for all we know, the former is simply too fast and taijutsu-skilled for Jugo to even touch him, given the latter's apparent linear method of combat.




> Source?



this



> That water tank? I don't care for your conjecture. It wasn't said to be steel.



I wasn't referring to that, dear child. You know, in basic debating, you would do well to not employ the strawman, which is the disingenuous misinterpretation of the opponent's argument so as to help your stance. 

You look like a fool, so stop putting words in my mouth.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 24, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> But its explosion in the Chibaku Tensei crater covered more than a few kilometers, what would you classify that as?



Dust being kicked up in the air? Inconsistency? I think it's extremely fair that Naruto can't destroy Konoha with the Rasenshuriken. So its destruction is not city-level. Do you think it would destroy the lil' village?



ATastyMuffin said:


> And? Is that supposed to validate your ridiculous, laughably misinformed assertion that steel is durable enough to take craters? It doesn't. Tanks are made of steel, and they can be destroyed by projectiles far less powerful than Jugo's punches, since said projectiles don't render entire craters as deep as his with their impact.



Welcome to manga, where physics are ignored and where part 1 Lee moves fast enough to shatter a stone arena as a byproduct of his movement (calcs?) and is yet likely slower than ninja who don't shatter the earth with speed.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Furthermore, Kimimaro being able to control Jugo isn't indicative of how durable his bones are; for all we know, the former is simply too fast and taijutsu-skilled for Jugo to even touch him, given the latter's apparent linear method of combat.



I find that unlikely given Jūgo's CS2 state and unpredictable transformations.



ATastyMuffin said:


> this



5 millimeters?  Okay, yah. 

I think it could get 0.196850394 inches into Kimimaro's bone. Sure.



ATastyMuffin said:


> I wasn't referring to that, dear child. You know, in basic debating, you would do well to not employ the strawman, which is the disingenuous misinterpretation of the opponent's argument so as to help your stance.



Ok. This is me:



Would a child have a stache that bitchin'? No. I'm a man, baby.



ATastyMuffin said:


> You look like a fool, so stop putting words in my mouth.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 24, 2013)

Vice said:


> Based on nothing.


I like this rebuttal.



> For all of five minutes. Raikage can fight for days.


Assuming Raikage can continously attack for 5 minutes while Itachi not being able to do anything in return.




> I was being hyperbolic, but whatever.


Sorry, but I can't make the distinction between your "serious" arguments and "hyperbolic" arguments because they are equally terrible.



> All faster than Itachi. Samurai fodder has avoided Amaterasu.


How did samurai avoid Amaterasu again ? 
And how is Hell realm faster than Itachi ? 




> Here's , just because.


Thats not amaterasu. Thats an enton arrow.



> Then why was he throwing around Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu all over the place?



Because he was making it look like he was genuinely "trying" to kill him ?



> And Raikage can't replicate this because.... ?


He needs to look Itachi in the eye to anticipate Amaterasu like Sasuke did(who eventually got hit). 
In which case he gets hit by Tsukiyomi.



> Don't care. Raikage's durability > Hebi Sasuke's.


I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that he'll die to Amaterasu.




> All less durable than the Raikage with the exception of Juubi, who didn't even try to dodge.


Yet he couldn't tank it and had to replace the body part.




> Raikage's also faster than all of them too.


Raikage isn't faster than his son, who has comparable speed to KCM Naruto's max speed.
Sandaime isn't that fast, so he isn't dodging Amaterasu.
He isn't tanking it either, so what is he left with ? 




> Or it has shitty, inconsistent feats and isn't so much the insta-win technique you seem to think it is.


I think you just moved from trolling stage to spewing utter nonsense stage. 





> K. and then this happened.


what does it have anything to do with speed or capability of dodging ? 
Raikage tanked Sasuke, who went in for a direct clash on purpose, and retaliated.

We are talking about Itachi's capability of dodging Raikage, which that page I posted proved already.



> Itachi wank. Itachi wank. Itachi wank. Itachi wank.
> 
> There, now my posts are as shitty as yours.





 u mad ? 




> I have. You picked one part of the whole fight, ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE that happened


.
It is still better than ignoring the only part that matters.
Owned kiddo. 
Time to go home 




> No you didn't.


I actually did. But I guess you didn't read it, like you don't read the manga.




> Uh, everything? Madara is clearly far superior than Itachi. Any argument to the contrary is just pure bullshit.


Madara is undoubtedly superior to Itachi in some respects.
In everything ?  Absoultely not.

In Susano'o movement speed ? There is no evidence that he is either faster or slower.
But I am curious what you based your argument on.




> Susanoo. Even considering he's too fast to be caught anyway.


No he isn't. Where did you get that from ? 

As far as I know, Sandaime Raikage doesn't have V2. Even if he had it, he had never shown it.
A shame really.



> Of course you don't, you're an Itachi-tard. Why would you ever grant obvious concessions?



I have a feeling that your nerdrage will get you banned one of these days.
What a glorious day that'll be


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He said "losing to." As in being shut down. Being caught with a moment of eye contact isn't difficult and Madara definitely could have done so to any of the Kage.​



No, he means losing to as in being caught in it unless you think that all this time, Ei believed that he's immune to EMS Madara and MS Sasuke genjutsu.



Strategoob said:


> Sage Kabuto was _way_ above them and he opted to immediately  his eyes entirely against Itachi. That says enough the assertion that 5 Madaras were unable to get Mei in a genjutsu _for hours_.
> 
> Say that last sentence out loud for me. _Say it_.


Um, if covering your eyes has zero negative affects on your ability to fight, then obviously you'd opt to do that instead of allow them that chance.  In addition to that, Edo itachi and especially EMS Sasuke are far above 5 V3 susanoos who only can use swords.

In addition to that, you are only attacking my argument without making a stance yourself and anyone can do that.



Strategoob said:


> A hit an Enton. That's not the same thing as Amaterasu, which should be obvious. Karen survived an Enton for a bit. Are you doing to argue that she'd keep fighting Itachi if hit by Amaterasu now?​


If anything enton is more potent than amaterasu, so amaterasu would have done even less damage than enton if it hit ei.  In addition to that, the samurai was hit directly by amaterasu, yet his armor wasn't burned at all so those feats stand.




Strategoob said:


> Based on feats of course. The Rasenshuriken hasn't done anything close to breaking through a v3 Susano'o. You used Kakuzu without his defensive jutsu as an argument, as if it meant something.​


The hype that FRS gets puts it on a completely different level than Danzou's powered up fuuton.  Human bodies are generally far more resistant to damage than things that aren't alive, but anyways kakuzu possesses a high level of durability, got all of his threads destroyed by the technique and lost 2 of his hearts.  I don't see danzou's fuuton doing that to a kakuzu who *looking like this.*
But anyways, I go on to show how FRS is just way more powerful than that fuuton later.




Strategoob said:


> Um, being faster than Sasuke, who was keeping up with v1 A fine and ultimately outmaneuvered him to land a Chidori in the chest? Or how about being​



Reread the VoTe fight with Naruto and Sasuke and tell me does a 3 tomoe sharingan user being able to 'keep up' with an opponent mean that he's even close to their level of speed?



Strategoob said:


> faster than Bee, ?


well, I guess Base Naruto is faster than V1 Ei as well then considering he does a much more difficult maneuver against Sasuke who by your logic is on the same speed tier as V1 Ei.



Strategoob said:


> Or how about being able to  and not having his attack casually redirected back into his chest at the last moment?


What does that have to do with speed?  That fight happened in midair so movement speed isn't really a factor and he has his own sharingan precog to combat kabuto's own.



Strategoob said:


> v1 A isn't fast relative to elite Sharingan users.


[/QUOTE]
*Madara isn't an elite sharingan user?*


And here's the obvious counter to your other post:


Strategoob said:


> The explosion feat against Pain doesn't follow any of the Rasenshuriken's other feats. It's not city-level. It's not block level.​



The explosion feat against Pain was simply FRS's raw explosion, the actual wind sphere of FRS is magnitudes upon magnitudes more damage dense than a simple raw explosion.  Jinton doesn't produce gigantic explosions yet it's much more powerful than things like C2 despite* C2 having an enormously larger AoE.*  It's the same thing with FRS, even at 50% completion, it forms a perfect circle in the ground indicating that it has destroyed everything it that the windsphere touches.  Compare that to deidara's raw explosions that barely even make craters despite being immensely larger.  Then there's the fact that it takes a ridiculously enormous amount of  power to actually disintegrate a human body in the narutoverse.  Bee's V1 lariat *destroys this cliff*, yet it does *comparatively tiny damage to sasuke's body.*  Thus FRS has to yield an enormous power in order to be capable of vaporizing a human as durable as the guy who takes sage kicks to the face and blocks sage punches.

Finally, there's the damage output of FRS vs rasengan that just proves that the raw explosion against pain is accurate.  FRS damaged kurama significantly more than 25+ SM COR damaged kurama.  Each of those rasengans are stated by databook to be powerful enough to hollow out a mountain, thus the FRS must have at least the same level of power as 25+ mountain hollowers.  If you want to say 'the databook is trash' then even by feats of smaller rasengans vs environment scaled up to the size of SM COR, those rasengans are mountain hollowers and thus FRS explosion is backed up by that.



Strategoob said:


> The Rasenshuriken hasn't destroyed anything better than steel.


FRS obviously is not going to destroy a being that regenerates and gets more powerful the more it gets hit.  However, even a normal rasengan has feats of destroying material far more durable than steel:
pain's chakra rods are 3 times more durable than steel:

a normal rasengan is so powerful that it begins to destroy those chakra rods before the ball even makes contact with the metal:

and of course later in the fight, we see rasengan busts the rod without any difficulty:


In addition to that, we have things like way back in part 1, where gaara's sand easily blocks attacks that *can pierce 5 mm of steel*, yet sasukes chidori (which is equal to rasengan) easily pierces a much more durable sand defense.

Finally we have things like *FRS vaporizing all the juubi clones who get caught in its wind sphere,* the same clones who are durable enough to stay intact after *taking a punch from sakura, *punches that were compared to tsunade's own which in turn were cracking ribcage susanoo which as you know is much more durable than steel.



Strategoob said:


> The third Raikage's body was likened to steel. The Totsuka cuts it.


Gai's body was likened to steel and a kunai can cut it, Sandaime raikage's body is magnitudes upon magnitudes more durable than steel.


----------



## Vice (Nov 24, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I like this rebuttal.



I felt it appropriate considering your Itachi is fast enough to dodge Raikage "just because" argument.



> Assuming Raikage can continously attack for 5 minutes while Itachi not being able to do anything in return.



Sure he can, for 3 days if he had to. He's faster.



> Sorry, but I can't make the distinction between your "serious" arguments and "hyperbolic" arguments because they are equally terrible.



Oh well, not my problem.



> How did samurai avoid Amaterasu again ?



Oh sorry, it was Kankuro's doing. 

Still failed to eat through his armor.



> And how is Hell realm faster than Itachi ?



Apparently by dodging FRS considering it's seen as an amazing feat and all.



> Thats not amaterasu. Thats an enton arrow.



Which consists of what? I'll give you a hint, it starts with A and is extremely overrated around these parts.



> Because he was making it look like he was genuinely "trying" to kill him ?



I have spoken til I'm blue in the face how stupid the retcon was and how it little sense it made when it concerns the Sasuke fight. 



> He needs to look Itachi in the eye to anticipate Amaterasu



A didn't need to.



> like Sasuke did(who eventually got hit).



Raikage's much faster.



> In which case he gets hit by Tsukiyomi.



Or blitzes before either comes into play.



> I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that he'll die to Amaterasu.



Or dodge it like A did. Or tear off the part that's hit like A did. 



> Yet he couldn't tank it and had to replace the body part.



Raikage can do the same thing. He can also dodge it, because he's fast.



> Raikage isn't faster than his son, who has comparable speed to KCM Naruto's max speed.



Naruto certainly had no problem comparing them.



> Sandaime isn't that fast, so he isn't dodging Amaterasu.



Sure he is. If A can do it, he can do it.



> He isn't tanking it either, so what is he left with ?



Blitzing Itachi before it even comes into play.



> I think you just moved from trolling stage to spewing utter nonsense stage.



Blame Kishi, not me.  



> what does it have anything to do with speed or capability of dodging ?



Because you're cherry-picking the parts of the fight you want to try to support your argument disregarding the sum total. 



> Raikage tanked Sasuke, who went in for a direct clash on purpose, and retaliated.



Besides cherry picking, I'm also curious as to what Sasuke's feats have to do with Itachi. Much less that A is clearly inferior to Raikage.



> We are talking about Itachi's capability of dodging Raikage, which that page I posted proved already.



So we're now giving Sasuke's feats to Itachi then? You want to give him Chidori too while we're at it?



> It is still better than ignoring the only part that matters.
> Owned kiddo.
> Time to go home



What? That A pinballed Sasuke up and down the Kage Summit? Yes, you're clearing ignoring the parts that matter.



> I actually did. But I guess you didn't read it, like you don't read the manga.



Sasuke's feat, not Itachi's.

Itachi got bisected by Kabuto, clearly inferior in speed.



> Madara is undoubtedly superior to Itachi in some respects.
> In everything ?  Absoultely not.



Sure he is. In everything.



> In Susano'o movement speed ? There is no evidence that he is either faster or slower.



Sure it is. Madara's caught A. 



> But I am curious what you based your argument on.



The manga. Where'd you get that Itachi was faster than the third?



> No he isn't. Where did you get that from ?



From the fact that he casually fought Hachibi with his bare hands.



> As far as I know, Sandaime Raikage doesn't have V2. Even if he had it, he had never shown it.



Doesn't matter, Naruto directly compared their speed.



> A shame really.



Even without V2, he's still faster than Itachi.



> I have a feeling that your nerdrage will get you banned one of these days.
> What a glorious day that'll be



Who gives a shit?


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> In addition to that, the samurai was hit directly by amaterasu, yet his armor wasn't burned at all so those feats stand.



Use Itachi's feats when discussing Itachi.



ueharakk said:


> Reread the VoTe fight with Naruto and Sasuke and tell me does a 3 tomoe sharingan user being able to 'keep up' with an opponent mean that he's even close to their level of speed?



Yes. Reflexes are what hold ninja back. They can vitalize their bodies to practically whatever speed they need, but they don't have the reflexes to function at that speed so they don't move that fast.



ueharakk said:


> *Madara isn't an elite sharingan user?*



You think Madara can't keep up with v1 A and Sasuke can?



ueharakk said:


> Bee's V1 lariat *destroys this cliff*, yet it does *comparatively tiny damage to sasuke's body.*  Thus FRS has to yield an enormous power in order to be capable of vaporizing a human as durable as the guy who takes sage kicks to the face and blocks sage punches.



Right. Manga physics. I agree with this.



ueharakk said:


> pain's chakra rods are 3 times more durable than steel:



Is it said, or is that picture all we get? Link?



ueharakk said:


> In addition to that, we have things like way back in part 1, where gaara's sand easily blocks attacks that *can pierce 5 mm of steel*, yet sasukes chidori (which is equal to rasengan) easily pierces a much more durable sand defense.



Chidori can pierce steel. I agree.



ueharakk said:


> punches that were compared to tsunade's own which in turn were cracking ribcage susanoo which as you know is much more durable than steel.



Where's it said that v1 Susano'o is more durable than steel?



ueharakk said:


> Gai's body was likened to steel



Link?


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Nov 24, 2013)

This is getting ridiculous. The A in V1 has better speed feats against KM Naruto than the Third Raikage does. Even if he is on par with A in V1, there is no way Itachi can't keep up. Itachi>MS Sasuke in speed and Sasuke evaded and countered A. For the record, the Rasen-Shuriken would have killed had he not been an Edo. Temari's Wind Net would have killed as well (although his Raiton Armor was not activated). Itachi's Susano'o Sword (not Totsuka) casually cut through Senpo DoSF bones. Totsuka also casually pierced Nagato's body, who casually took a V2 Lariat from Bee without any type of regeneration needed. That same Lariat blew out Kisame's chest lol. 

Even if it barely pierces the Third Raikage, that's GG. 

Why are people acting as if Madara was desperately trying to get A in a Genjutsu? Or was he just having fun with them? It's blatantly the latter.


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## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> This is getting ridiculous. The A in V1 has better speed feats against KM Naruto than the Third Raikage does. Even if he is on par with A in V1, there is no way Itachi can't keep up. Itachi>MS Sasuke in speed and Sasuke evaded and countered A.


I don't think anyone is arguing (at least not me) that he 'can't keep up', but as we saw at VoTe when you have a three tomoe sharingan, you don't have to be as fast as the other guy in order to keep up or even blitz him.



Master Sephiroth said:


> For the record, the Rasen-Shuriken would have killed had he not been an Edo. Temari's Wind Net would have killed as well (although his Raiton Armor was not activated). Itachi's Susano'o Sword (not Totsuka) casually cut through Senpo DoSF bones. Totsuka also casually pierced Nagato's body, who casually took a V2 Lariat from Bee without any type of regeneration needed. That same Lariat blew out Kisame's chest lol.


Bee had no bones when he rammed nagato, and nagato's preta path canonically negates any damage done to him by the attack even if the attack hits him a little early which is why his robe isn't even damaged from the lariat and why preta path could hug jiraiya's SM COR without getting damaged at all.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Why are people acting as if Madara was desperately trying to get A in a Genjutsu? Or was he just having fun with them? It's blatantly the latter.


desperate or not, the clones were going for the kill, provide more pressure than itachi himself can give and even then only got Ei because he was distracted by tsunade.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 24, 2013)

Thats not amaterasu thats an Enton arrow   



No one has yet presented evidence to support why Itachi would win.


THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN DEFEAT THE RAIKAGE IS THE RAIKAGE..DAMMIT


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Nov 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't think anyone is arguing (at least not me) that he 'can't keep up', but as we saw at VoTe when you have a three tomoe sharingan, you don't have to be as fast as the other guy in order to keep up or even blitz him.



Exactly. So people that are saying that he is too fast for Itachi are only fooling themselves.



> Bee had no bones when he rammed nagato, and nagato's preta path canonically negates any damage done to him by the attack even if the attack hits him a little early which is why his robe isn't even damaged from the lariat and why preta path could hug jiraiya's SM COR without getting damaged at all.



Nagato activated Preta Path after he got hit. The damage from the Lariat would have connected before that. And with Jiraiya's SM COR, he absorbed it before the damage could run its course and explode. He started as soon as he touched it, unlike the previous example where he got hit first and then switched to Preta Path.





> desperate or not, the clones were going for the kill, provide more pressure than itachi himself can give and even then only got Ei because he was distracted by tsunade.



Going for the kill ≠ going for Genjutsu specifically. And there are levels of killing intent. Madara was going for the kill, but in a very casual way as he always does. He didn't even care to kill them after Edo Tensei got released and he came back. Hell, even during the Mokuton clone fight he said that he wanted to break Oonoki's will, not even kill him.

In that battle, about the same time he defeated Mei. So however long it was, it probably wasn't that long. If it was, then I highly doubt that he was THAT serious about killing them. Otherwise Mei would be dead as a dog far before then lol.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Use Itachi's feats when discussing Itachi.


um no, amaterasu is amaterasu, I use amaterasu when discussing amaterasu.  




Strategoob said:


> Yes. Reflexes are what hold ninja back. They can vitalize their bodies to practically whatever speed they need, but they don't have the reflexes to function at that speed so they don't move that fast.


it seems that you didn't read the VoTe fight.  Sasuke blitzing KN0 naruto and turning the tide on him had nothing to do with him using greater speed, it was everything to do with him knowing where naruto was going to move before naruto even moved there and then planning his attacks accordingly.  

Oh and your logic would lead you to the necessary conclusion that KN0 Naruto has much better reactions than 2 tomoe sharingan sasuke which is obviously not true.  The whole lee vs Sasuke fight also disproves your theory that having better reactions allows you to move faster, actually lee basically disproves that.

and no, ninjas can't vitalize their bodies to whatever speed they need, SM Naruto has better reactions that KCM NAruto yet who's faster?



Strategoob said:


> You think Madara can't keep up with v1 A and Sasuke can?


Oh i think they both can 'keep up with' v1 Ei, but i don't think either are 'as fast as' v1 Ei.




Strategoob said:


> Right. Manga physics. I agree with this.
> 
> Is it said, or is that picture all we get? Link?


That picture is all we get, but it's pretty obvious author's intent that Kishi is trying to tell the reader that 3 swords = 1 black rod thus that's how durable the rod is. 




Strategoob said:


> Chidori can pierce steel. I agree.


Since you don't disagree that by the logic of rasengan = chidori that rasengan would be able to pierce steel as well, then I'm guessing you agree then.




Strategoob said:


> Where's it said that v1 Susano'o is more durable than steel?


maybe when danzou's kunai broke against it?




Strategoob said:


> Link?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Maito Gai



Ninja ID: 010252
Age: 30
Birthday: 1st January (Capricorn)
Height: 184cm
Weight: 76kg
Blood Type: B
Personality: Passionate, moved to tears easily
Favourite food: Really hot curry rice, curry udon
Least favourite food: Loves them all!
Wants to fight: Kakashi!
Favourite phrase: "Burn with the flame of YOUTH!"
Hobby: *see notes below*

Graduated the Academy at 7
Became a Chuunin at 11

Missions completed:
D-Rank: 86
C-Rank: 270
B-Rank: 210
A-Rank: 199
S-Rank: 23


With hot-blooded zeal pulsing through his veins, his fists are like swallows taking flight!


- He dodges like a flash, then wields his body like a weapon to smash against his opponent!
- A master of hand-to-hand combat, Gai is also highly proficient with weapons. But he prefers to use bladeless weapons.
- Gai looks nowhere but forwards. Since he never looks back, maybe his memory's been slightly affected...


A body tempered like steel, and taijutsu that can shatter boulders... But neither of those are the true source of Gai's strength. Rather, it is his constant eye forward, his unending desire to work to reach new heights. This is what made him a taijutsu user able to stand toe to toe with an Akatsuki member. Gai focuses everything on improving himself, and will willingly put his life on the line. Gai's way of life has been passed on to his students, who don't just think of their own needs, but of the needs of their entire team. Becoming highly proficient on their own, then using teamwork to reach even greater heights... Gai's teachings of the vigour of youth now show brilliant results!




I'm also guessing that the things you didn't respond to are all things that you accept.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Nagato activated Preta Path after he got hit. The damage from the Lariat would have connected before that. And with Jiraiya's SM COR, he absorbed it before the damage could run its course and explode. He started as soon as he touched it, unlike the previous example where he got hit first and then switched to Preta Path.


- you didn't explain the undamaged robe
- my post you quoted took into account him activating preta path after he got hit
- preta path began absorbing it after he touched it as we see no absorption sphere and we see the ball grinding into his face and hands:





Master Sephiroth said:


> Going for the kill ≠ going for Genjutsu specifically. And there are levels of killing intent. Madara was going for the kill, but in a very casual way as he always does. He didn't even care to kill them after Edo Tensei got released and he came back. Hell, even during the Mokuton clone fight he said that he wanted to break Oonoki's will, not even kill him.


well, genjutsu doesn't automatically kill them, if he wanted to play with them he could genjutsu them and then not kill them.



Master Sephiroth said:


> In that battle, about the same time he defeated Mei. So however long it was, it probably wasn't that long. If it was, then I highly doubt that he was THAT serious about killing them. Otherwise Mei would be dead as a dog far before then lol.


i'm fine with him only beginning to use the V3s a little before we saw mei getting thrashed, and that would make it easier for itachi to get Ei into it, but he'd still have to generate the amount of pressure and distraction that ei had to deal with.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> um no, amaterasu is amaterasu, I use amaterasu when discussing amaterasu.



Jutsu potency can shifts depending on the user. Sasuke's second-ever Amaterasu being used to discredit Itachi superior feats in an Itachi thread is bad reasoning, no matter how you slice it.​


ueharakk said:


> Oh and your logic would lead you to the necessary conclusion that KN0 Naruto has much better reactions than 2 tomoe sharingan sasuke which is obviously not true.



It is absolutely true. Hence why Naruto could keep up with his movements i.e. not trip over himself or run into Sasuke, and Sasuke could not. Once Sasuke's reflexes were enhanced, so was speed.​


ueharakk said:


> The whole lee vs Sasuke fight also disproves your theory that having better reactions allows you to move faster, actually lee basically disproves that.



Sasuke hadn't had his speed training yet, so he was unable to push his body further with chakra. Using a very young and inexperienced ninja to form the golden rule for elites is, again, pointless.​


ueharakk said:


> That picture is all we get, but it's pretty obvious author's intent that Kishi is trying to tell the reader that 3 swords = 1 black rod thus that's how durable the rod is.



We don't know if those knives are steel, decently made, or anything else. It looks like the rod was cut completely in half and the knives were just dulled, too. I don't think that's solid. 

If anything, they have a stick-like quality given how frequently they broke off in battle. We've seen them break frequently. Their quality was chakra-disruption, not durability.​


ueharakk said:


> Since you don't disagree that by the logic of rasengan = chidori that rasengan would be able to pierce steel as well, then I'm guessing you agree then.



The Chidori is a piercing technique. The Rasengan is not.​


ueharakk said:


> maybe when danzou's kunai broke against it?



Kunai are not steel. They're made of cheaper metal as they're meant to be thrown. You can see how their color is very dark compared to swords and whatnot that are made of steel.​


ueharakk said:


> A body tempered like steel



A body _tempered_ like steel is not a body as durable as steel. It's a simile stating that Gai has made his body more tough in the same way steel is made more tough.​


ueharakk said:


> I'm also guessing that the things you didn't respond to are all things that you accept.



Or I just don't feel like arguing in circles.​


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Nov 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> - you didn't explain the undamaged robe
> - my post you quoted took into account him activating preta path after he got hit
> - preta path began absorbing it after he touched it as we see no absorption sphere and we see the ball grinding into his face and hands:



We also didn't see an absorption sphere when he took Bee's Chakra or SM Naruto's (we only saw an aura when we looked at it with Naruto's SM perception). Do you know what they all have in common? Direct contact. After the initial contact absorption of SM COR, he put up the barrier and let it do the rest of the work.

As for the undamaged cloak, I dunno. That honestly doesn't seem to matter much. The fact remains that he was not in Preta Path before getting hit by the Lariat. Cloaks seem to stay on and not get damaged at selective times. 



> well, genjutsu doesn't automatically kill them, if he wanted to play with them he could genjutsu them and then not kill them.



That's only one of multiple options though.



> i'm fine with him only beginning to use the V3s a little before we saw mei getting thrashed, and that would make it easier for itachi to get Ei into it, but he'd still have to generate the amount of pressure and distraction that ei had to deal with.



If his movement is linear enough and slow enough, all Itachi has to do is predict it and time it right with his Susano'o Arm to grab him. We've already established that he can do something like this if Sasuke could do something similar to A with Chidori.


----------



## eyeknockout (Nov 24, 2013)

I feel like an MS restricted itachi vs 3rd raikage would be a pretty close fight, so with itachi having no restrictions I don't see any chance of him losing.


----------



## Vice (Nov 24, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> I feel like an MS restricted itachi vs 3rd raikage would be a pretty close fight



.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 24, 2013)

Vice said:


> .



Genjutsu GG, Vice.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Jutsu potency can shifts depending on the user. Sasuke's second-ever Amaterasu being used to discredit Itachi superior feats in an Itachi thread is bad reasoning, no matter how you slice it.​


That's an extremely generalized statement that doesn't apply to amaterasu between users as nothing ever implied that itachi's amaterasu was more potent than sasukes and katons canonically gain more power by either being shape manipulated into more dangerous/concentrated forms or growing bigger, thus if those variables are constant then there shouldn't be any difference in amaterasu's power or potency.




Strategoob said:


> It is absolutely true. Hence why Naruto could keep up with his movements i.e. not trip over himself or run into Sasuke, and Sasuke could not. Once Sasuke's reflexes were enhanced, so was his movement.​


In order for that to be true, you'd have to presuppose that Naruto's KN forms increases his reactions and doesn't increase his speed and that gates also increase the user's reactions and have nothing to do with increasing their speed.




Strategoob said:


> Sasuke hadn't had his speed training yet, so he was unable to push his body further with chakra. Using a very young and inexperienced ninja to form the golden rule for elites is, again, pointless.​


Um, sasuke even needing to speed train in order to push his bod further with the use of chakra is conclusive proof that in order to get faster you have to train your body in order to do it.  And the universal basics are established in the beginning of the manga so that the readers have a solid basis for how things work and don't get confused like you have gotten when it comes to speed.  And sasuke already had speed training against zabuza and haku which is how he went from losing to a zabuza clone to blitzing ten of them and eventually haku.





Strategoob said:


> We don't know if those swords are steel, decently made, or anything else. It looks like the rod was cut completely in half and the knives were just dulled, too. I don't think they're way more durable than steel.​



Standard shinobi swords are steel by default.  If you want to assert that the swords WERENT made of steel, then you have a burden of proof to do so.  Else anyone could just play the 'we don't know' card for anything in the manga that leads to a conclusion that they don't like and jerrymander it to eternity.  In addition to that, the rod wasn't cut completely in half, it wasn't even cut into pieces, the whole purpose of cutting the rod was to just get the fine shavings which you can clearly see on that napkin the rod is placed on which is what shizune is observing with the microscope on that page.

*And here's the link.*



Strategoob said:


> If anything, they have a stick-like quality given how frequently they broke off in battle. Their quality was chakra-disruption, not durability.


Um, them being frequently broken in battle has nothing to do with their durability, if 3 steel swords get destroyed in order to just produce fine shavings, then the people that break them are just that strong or steel in the narutoverse is just that weak.




Strategoob said:


> The Chidori is a piercing technique. The Rasengan is not.​


Oh my bad, then change 'pierce' into 'grind through' or 'blow a hole in'.  Either way the damage each will do to a construct is going to be equal if both techniques are equal regardless of what kind of damage or how it goes about doing it.




Strategoob said:


> Kunai are not steel.​


The iron kunai will damage steel if jabbed directly at it, not break in half.




Strategoob said:


> A body tempered like steel is not a body as durable as steel.​
> Kunai are not steel.​


How exactly is a body tempered like steel not as durable as a body as durable as steel?




Strategoob said:


> Or just don't feel like arguing in circles.​


If you don't feel like arguing, you have to drop the entire argument, not just portions that you don't feel like addressing since anyone can do that to copout of being argued into a corner.

And you can't just drop arguments that you don't like and claim that it will only lead to arguing in circles.  Anyone can make arguments go in circles if they reach basic assumptions that can't be broken down any more, however what those assumptions are that separate the two views are the golden eggs of the arguments since it shows who is being biased and who isn't.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> The bolded is incorrect.
> 
> Gaara never blocked Sasukes Enton, on the contrary, it is Sasuke who is blocking Gaara's attack.
> 
> Furthermore, Enton is the existing manipulation of already existing flames, it is not the same as Amaterasu which spawns flame where the user looks.



I've seen it translated differently, but I do remember seeing people argue about that in the past. Can you show me your source, just so I can confirm?



ATastyMuffin said:


> While I've no doubt Itachi can successfully land an Amaterasu on the likes of the Third Raikage, Susano'o's hand grip is by no means powerful enough to bind someone as physically powerful as him. When it comes to strength feats, Susano'o in general (excluding the Perfect form, of course) are extremely underwhelming.



One-handing the Yamata no Jutsu and shattering Nagato's Shuradou arms like dry sticks are by no means "underwhelming" feats. The Raikage's got no feats of that caliber; even giving him the benefit of the doubt, he's still going to have to work for it if he wants to free himself.



Vice said:


> So because it's Itachi I'm just supposed to fall in line and accept the bullshit?
> 
> No.



Not falling in line and not accepting bullshit doesn't mean you have to lie and act like a complete twit. You can't control how other people act, but you _can_ control yourself.

Or you can continue trolling and reap what you sow. Your call.



> I compare Itachi to other speedsters in the manga and how he falls short and you don't see how it applies to this match. Yes, that is the problem here.



There are several problems here and that isn't one of them. The problem in this specific instance is that you are bringing up irrelevant examples. The 3rd Raikage is about as fast as Sage Kabuto and slower than the 4th Raikage.

Also, I will retract what I said about not disagreeing with you before; I overlooked the part where you said Nagato's reaction time "fodderizes" Itachi's, which 1) doesn't make any sense and 2) seems to imply that Nagato has significantly better reaction time, which hasn't been established.

If you want to make it relevant, don't just cite other characters at random; you have to actually make a comparison with the 3rd Raikage or someone immediately comparable to the 3rd Raikage through feats. Telling me that Kabuto was able to hit Itachi or that the 4th Raikage ran circles around Sasuke doesn't say anything about the 3rd Raikage. You have to make that connection and explain why it is so.



> So he should just because you say so?



No. Because he is fast enough and has Sharingan.

KCM Naruto at 1/13 his full power could do it. That same clone in Sage Mode could do it better, thanks to his enhanced Sage sensing. Hell, even Dodai reacted in time to protect Naruto and fooled the Raikage with a feint.

The 3rd attacks in a straight line, which we know is easy for Sharingan to read.

Think about what you are arguing against, here; Itachi is one of the fastest characters in the manga and all I'm saying is that he _has the ability to dodge_ the 3rd Raikage, not that he necessarily always will or even that he can do it consistently. Yet you're acting like that's personally offensive.



> If the only thing he can do is put Susanoo up to block the Raikage's speed, then he isn't outlasting the dude. Simple as that.



But that isn't all he can do.



> Sure it was. Naruto directly compared them.



He said they were both fast; he didn't say they were comparable.

A dodged Amaterasu; the 3rd was hit with FRS manually (after a few attempts). They are clearly not on the same level.



> Considering he's vastly faster and more durable than Itachi, I don't think any other suggestions are necessary.



Durability means nothing against Amaterasu or any Genjutsu. Speed-wise, you've yet to provide any evidence that the 3rd is faster than Itachi at all, let alone "vastly."

The entire foundation of your claim appears to be "Naruto compared them, so the 3rd is as fast as the 4th." Even if that's true, which is not guaranteed at all, you have still completely neglected Itachi's ability to clone feint and catch the Raikage from a blind spot, which would work just as effectively against the 4th or anyone else, regardless of speed.

Now you can do two things, so choose your own adventure:

1. Flip your shit and be outraged that I just told you you haven't proven the 3rd Raikage is faster than Itachi and that I just said Itachi can clone feint the Raikage.

or

2. Actually provide something resembling a good reason to believe otherwise.



> Why does he have to look in Itachi's eyes at all?



He doesn't, but there are consequences for that (e.g., Amaterasu).



> What's stopping him from just blitzing Itachi with his superior speed?



Susano'o activation at Itachi's will, for one thing, and Itachi also being fast enough and equipped with Sharingan to evade a straight-line attack from the Raikage; the greater the distance, the better Itachi's chances of evasion and the less he needs to rely on Susano'o. Once Itachi starts spitting fire and using the obstruction to tag out with body doubles, the 3rd has to worry about getting taken from behind, too.

There's plenty Itachi can do.



> Why does it seem like a requirement for everyone in a match-up against Itachi to just stare at him?



It's not a requirement, but it generally happens in normal human interaction, unless you are severely autistic.

That's like asking, "Why does it seem like a requirement for everyone in a match-up against Itachi to start facing him?" I dunno, man. Shit. People are just like that.

Do you really need to question something this intuitive? It doesn't matter if the 3rd makes eye contact or not, anyway; if he doesn't, he misses Amaterasu and gets fried.



> It'll hit him just because I said it would. Is that is going on here?



No, it will hit him because Itachi can guide the flame with his eyes and the only thing the 3rd can do is try to find something to get behind before it catches him, assuming he has noticed the activation without falling prey to mindfuck transmitted via eye contact.

I don't know why you're so offended by the notion that the 3rd Raikage can't outrun Itachi's _sight_. You don't appear content with believing that he is merely faster than Itachi, or even significantly faster; you're going as far as to act like Itachi can't even get a visual lock on him, which was never an issue for _anyone_ we saw fighting the 3rd.



> Or, given the same amount of time that Hebi Sasuke was able to dodge Amaterasu, he blitzes behind Itachi and finishes him off.



Susano'o would completely negate the attempt.

And as I've pointed out to you numerous times already, the Raikage doesn't have the luxury of watching Itachi's eyes for the warning signs without incurring the risk of Tsukuyomi.



> Seriously, stop comparing the Uchiha bros. to the Raikage in speed.



I'm not comparing them in speed; I'm saying Itachi can look at the 3rd before the 3rd can lay a finger on him. Considering Naruto's clone in both KCM and Sage Mode was able to run up and physically strike the guy, I don't think that's unreasonable. Maybe you have a different idea; you're certainly welcome to explain it.



> How so? Karin was hit with it and survived it and she doesn't have lightning armor.



Karin has a healing factor and- more importantly -*Sasuke stopped the flames to save her*. She didn't simply take the hit and survive.

Like I said, that claim is _completely indefensible_ and the only thing you can do to mend the damage you've just done to your own credibility is retract it and move on to the next item.



> You guys run around claiming it's a one-shot, insta-kill technique, it's not my fault that you're incapable of accepting it for what it really is.



It isn't an instant kill, but it is definitely a one-shot kill if it can't be removed or avoided. The 3rd can't remove it and his ability to anticipate the Jutsu in advance presents the risk of being hit with another finisher.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

> No, he just cut off the part that was damaged and proceeded to keep pinballing. No reason the third can't do the same considering his armor is superior.



The 4th Raikage was bleeding out after he chopped his arm off and needed medical attention from C to close the wound. IF the 3rd is lucky enough to only catch one of his arms on fire (and not even a leg, which would compromise his ability to dodge), chopping it off is going to take its own toll as he exerts himself in the fight. If he gets hit in the torso or the head, he's a goner.



> And the third can tank attacks from a bijuu and only got hurt by his own technique. Who cares?



The 3rd Raikage would definitely care. True, a normal Amaterasu has never been tested against someone as durable as he is, but that kind of ambiguity doesn't mean he's safe from it- it just means we don't know for sure. However, it's probably worth noting that durability doesn't mean jack shit in terms of heat resistance, asphyxiation, and all the other nasty little problems that go along with being engulfed in flames. Given Amaterasu's track record and the lack of anything that has outright withstood it physically, I give it the benefit of the doubt when it comes to whether or not it can burn the 3rd's body. This is one of the few circumstances where I will turn to hype to point me toward a conclusion. There isn't really any more substantial evidence to go by, on this topic.



> Like speed, which the third has.
> 
> Like lightning armor, which the third has.



Raiton armor doesn't protect from Amaterasu (based on the 4th cutting his own arm off to be rid of the flames) and the 3rd has not demonstrated the speed necessary to evade Amaterasu.



> But he didn't dodge it.



What's your point?



> And it doesn't matter because the third is faster than both.



Again, what's your point? Are you asking me if the 3rd can land a hit on Itachi after his Tsukuyomi has been broken and his coordination is thrown off? Because the answer is obviously yes he can; I'm not going to play your stupid little game of favorites.



> I told you I didn't have the patience for anyone trying to compare Itachi to Madara, so I'm skipping this bullshit for my own sanity.



Do whatever you like. But the truth is that Itachi is better than Madara in some ways- chiefly, in matters of any intelligence.



> Lol Karin survived it.
> 
> Lol Fodder survived it.



No they didn't.

Look, I'm trying to be accommodating here. If you're not going to take this seriously, there's no reason for me to bother with you.



> And you're right, the third could only stand up to a bijuu by himself. The same bijuu that can level mountains and take out villages. Itachi and his little kunai and shuriken tricks should be able to replicate these feats.



Now you're just arbitrarily making up strawman arguments. Just stop. There's already enough to discuss; neither of us needs you putting words in my mouth.



> Good thing he has superior speed then.



Having superior speed doesn't mean he is fast enough to evade Itachi's Genjutsu or Amaterasu. It's also completely meaningless if Itachi clone feints and takes his back.



> Whatever helps you sleep at night, but if you continue to claim that Itachi can physically replicate that which even a bijuu was incapable of doing, then I will continue to laugh at you because you deserve to be laughed at.



No, Vice. Itachi can destroy a Bijuu in one attack with Amaterasu like Sasuke did, which is something a Bijuu CAN'T replicate, so there's nothing to laugh at here. You are just being petty and biting the hand that is being offered to you. You ridicule what you hate and hate what you don't want to understand, and that's resulted in you becoming a hostile and unreasonable person who takes any hint of disagreement as a personal sleight.

Well, suit yourself. You're still just wrong and you're transparently aware of that.



> I mean sure, if the third just stands there staring at him letting Itachi get all the offense in.



No, Itachi has great chances of winning no matter what the Raikage does. He's stronger than the Raikage- both of them.



> Quit with the unnecessary and unearned wank and I wouldn't act that way.



Acting "that way" is your own choice, not anybody else's.



> I like how you take this moral stance with me because I'm anti-Itachi, yet don't say a word to anyone else when they run around acting like trolls in favor of him.



Does anything really need to be said? Most of it is just the usual mindless "Itachi solos" parroting that never goes into any real depth or gets taken seriously.

And the truth is, I do argue against people who make outrageous claims whether they support Itachi with them or not. But I am an Itachi fan after all, so it goes without saying that I seek out those opportunities a lot less.



> But perfectly A-Okay when his fanbase does the same thing?



Quit trying to turn this around on other people. You're just rationalizing your own mania.



> Shut up dude, don't take a stand one way and completely justify the same thing just because the other way happens to be pro-Itachi. I don't want to hear it.



I'm not justifying anything. This double-standard exists only in your head.



> Sure. Mostly those below Kage level.



Some low and mid Kage-levels are also fair game. Take the 2nd and 5th Mizukages, for example. Hell, you could add old Hiruzen. Like throwing balled-up tissues at a freight train.

This isn't unique to Itachi, though; Minato and Nagato can do the same thing. Hell, the Raikage can trash multiple Kage-levels.



> He doesn't need it.



He does if he expects to win.



> It isn't debatable any way, least of all just because you say it is. The third has the feats to say he's faster.



What feats would those be?



> Sure, if you're a Zetsu clone or something.



Zetsu clones are actually tougher than average. Though the Hachibi was certainly no Zetsu clone.



> Or superior speed. Which Raikage has.



1. You haven't proven that.

and

2. Being faster than Itachi doesn't mean he's fast enough to evade Amaterasu; he has to be faster than Itachi's eyes can move, which means many times faster than Itachi.



> Proof that Totsuka can pierce lightning armor, please?



Impossible to verify because we have no feats or statements to draw a comparison between the two.

This is just my own personal expectation, but I don't think it would. The 4th Raikage caught a normal Susano'o sword from one of Madara's clones and I don't really see any reason to believe the Totsuka is that much more penetrative. I just don't see any reason to believe that.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

> Sure he can. A did it.



That was A's feat, not his father's; the father's best speed feat was evading two consecutive uses of FRS at close range.



> Based on the manga.



Based on what _*in*_ the manga?

The manga has over 600 chapters, containing roughly 20 pages each. You're going to need to be more specific.



> The third's armor is stronger, and he's as fast. Still not seeing the problem here.



There are two problems:

1) Nothing indicates the 3rd Raikage is as fast as the 4th.

2) He still has no way to deal with Itachi clone feinting and getting him from behind.



> Of course he can't if you continue to ignore his speed and durability advantage.



Dodging FRS twice is not tantamount to dodging Amaterasu, especially considering the third attempt hit him.



> lol.



You still haven't actually address what the Raikage is supposed to do about that.



> Which is a good thing that he's significantly faster and more durable and has a far higher stamina pool than Itachi.



Fast enough to evade Amaterasu is unsupported, and he can't see it coming without risking a hit from Tsukuyomi. In addition, there's still the matter of clone feinting you keep conveniently overlooking.



> Just because I said so despite the manga showing otherwise.



The manga never showed otherwise because they never fought.



> If Kabuto can bisect Itachi and if A can knock around MS Sasuke, then there is no reason why the third can't do the same.



There is. Chiefly, the 3rd is not as fast as the 4th; there is no evidence supporting that claim. In addition, Kabuto bisected Itachi via an ambush at close-range after Itachi deactivated his own Susano'o to use Izanami, a situation which the 3rd lacks the means to replicate.



> A didn't have the sharingan, he dodged it.



Sasuke couldn't use Tsukuyomi and A has much better speed feats (and hype) than his father.



> Yes. Nothing else needs to be said.



Dealing with Itachi's clone feints needs to be addressed.



> Because I said so.



Because Itachi=KCM Naruto at 1/13 full power, and the latter physically struck the Raikage.



> What does any of this have to do with the third?



What I just said.



> Naruto directly comparing their speed.



All he says is that both Raikage are very fast. He did not say they were equal.



> Hebi Sasuke kept up with him. Nagato fodderizes him. Kabuto bisected him.
> 
> The third is faster than all of them.



The 3rd is about as fast Sage Kabuto. Itachi is slower, but not by that much. Hebi Sasuke is a little bit slower than that. Nagato can't even walk.



Vice said:


> lol. Comparing Itachi to them.
> 
> This is what I mean when I refer to unsubstantiated wank.



I was saying they were the ones that were capable of overwhelming Itachi with their speed. 

Don't _you_ feel foolish.



> Third blitzes or outright tanks.



You've yet to provide evidence that he can do this. All you've done so far is make an unjustified conflation between the two Raikage and transfer the 4th's Amaterasu-dodging feat because Naruto happened to remark that they were both fast. You've done absolutely nothing toward proving the 3rd can tank Amaterasu. You have not even made a coherent attempt at it.



> Sure it is if your opponent is significantly faster.



The 3rd Raikage is not THAT fast.



> Why is it a prerequisite that everyone has to stare Itachi right in the eyes in these match-ups?



It's not a prerequisite, but some circumstances are just intuitively assumed- like the fact that they are facing each other and breathing. It's assumed that they see each other unless line of sight is explicitly impeded in the conditions of the match. Naturally, Itachi's eyes would be within the Raikage's field of vision.



> The burden of casting Tsukuyomi is on Itachi to stop the third's movements to be able to cast in on him, the third doesn't have to stand there and allow Itachi to do anything.



The 3rd can be moving and he would still get hit if he is not avoiding eye contact.



> Why couldn't he? A did it.



A did not avoid looking at Sasuke's eyes and A is the one with the demonstrable speed to dodge Amaterasu.



> You keep saying this despite it being blatantly false. Why?



Because it isn't false. The Raikage's best speed feat is something Pain Tendou and Kimimaro were able to partially replicate.



> What the fuck is a clone feint going to do for Itachi here?



Give him a freebie on the Raikage with Amaterasu.



> It's almost infuriating that you keep insisting on comparing Itachi's speed to the Raikage.



I don't even know what to say to that. Get a life? Or even just some perspective.

There are people in the Philippines right now, without shelter or clean water in the wake of tropical storm Haiyan, plagued by rampant looting and violence.

I'm not even comparing Itachi's speed to the Raikage's; I'm just saying the 3rd is not as fast as the 4th, and not so much faster than Itachi that he can completely move out of Itachi's field of vision.



> You're right. With blood lust set up, Raikage sees Itachi's douchey little face and has to listen to his hypocritical preaching, gets pissed off and blitzes.



Susano'o no-sells it, boxes him in with its arms, and Itachi finishes with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu.



> Raikage doesn't have to make eye contact at all.



He doesn't have to have his eyes open at all, but basic understanding of human nature tells us he will.



> And if it was as simple as that, he'd be doing it to everyone in this manga, right?



That's exactly what the manga shows. Look at the number of people Itachi has trolled via staring contest on-panel. It's almost unnatural. Kishi literally could've just shown him do it one time and we would get the point- we would know what he's capable of.

There seems to be great emphasis on the fact that Sharingan Genjutsu is troublesome, and Itachi's especially so. If you deny that, you're just denying reality. Ironic, isn't it?



> Dodges it like A did.



Can't dodge what he can't see coming.



> No, they just all survived this insta-win-one-hitter-quitter-technique.



"Instant" came out of your mouth, not mine.

Karin and the samurai didn't survive; they were spared.

The Hachibi's body was destroyed and remained only inside of B.

And the Raikage had to mutilate himself to avoid being killed.



> And what is it when you keep saying Itachi is as fast as the Raikage?



I never said that.



> What is it when you keep insisting that Itachi can physically do what a bijuu couldn't?



If you're referring to Amaterasu only...it's canon.



> Because he's faster, and can dodge.



Yeah, that doesn't mean he can dodge Amaterasu.



> No, you just keep insisting that Itachi is as fast as the third with no evidence and with the manga making it perfectly clear that it isn't true.



I never claimed that once, let alone insisted any such thing.



> You also keep insisting that these insta-kill-one-hit jutsus that people have SURVIVED in canon, will somehow hurt a person who fought the Hachibi by himself on more than one occasion.



Because it will. The Raikage does not have the means to survive it, unless he can chop off the body part that's on fire like his son did, or unless Itachi decides to spare his life like Sasuke did for Karin. The problem with the former option is that there is no medic ninja available to heal the Raikage's bleeding stump, which leaves him critically wounded and pushing himself, fighting the same guy who can just repeat the same move (among others).



> Yes, there clearly is. I'm giving you manga examples to suggest why I feel the way I do, you're saying Itachi wins just because. Huge difference.



You are completely out of touch with reality here.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Sandaime Raikage wins.



No he doesn't.



> Far faster than Itachi, can outlast him by leaps and bounds and genjutsu isn't an issue due to the Sandaime's speed.



Um, the 3rd's best speed feat is dodging FRS twice in a row at short range, which is not drastically different from what Itachi and similar shinobi are capable of.



> For Madara, a superior Mangekyo user to even catch his son's initial level of speed there were _five_ Susano'o's needed, while Itachi can only produce one which can't even touch the Sandaime.



That was the 4th Raikage, not the 3rd. And Madara was fighting all five Kage at the same time (not just the Raikage), via clones, and toying with them. The same doesn't necessarily hold true for Itachi going all-out against the 3rd, or even the 4th for that matter.



> Amaterasu can be outright avoided



Not without looking at Itachi's eyes, which puts the 3rd in danger of taking Tsukuyomi.



> (Itachi's charge time is as fast as Killer Bee throwing his sword,



You only ever use the Jutsu's worst showing. What about when Itachi used it on Kabuto's spider webs after he fired them? You never address this issue (or anything I ever say to you).



> more than enough time for someone who can casually dodge Futon: Rasenshuriken twice to avoid).



Amaterasu's execution is faster than throwing or physically thrusting FRS, and it can be guided by sight after its ignition.



> Tsukuyomi is a non issue too due to it taking a bit of time for Itachi to build up as well as shown in his battles with Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke.



Please cite where this build-up was shown.



> Sword of Totsuka is gonna bounce off the Sandaime's body and Raiton no Yoroi, there's no feats at all to suggest it can pierce someone who can no sell the Futon: Rasenshuriken's cutting power and wind dome simultaneously.



There are no feats to suggest the 3rd can tank the Totsuka no Tsurugi, either, because the Totsuka no Tsurugi has no cap feats; it is unverifiable and your guess is no better than anyone else's.



> The manga just built the Sandaime up to be a far stronger opponent than what Itachi can deal with.



No it didn't; Itachi is above the level of the Raikage- both of them. None of the current five Kage or the four Edo Tensei Kage are stronger than Itachi; he is above them all. He and Nagato were the strongest Edo Tensei after Madara.

I bet you wouldn't say Jiraiya loses to the Raikage. Hell, you'd probably say Nukite bounces off his Sage Mode body.


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## Bonly (Nov 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> For Madara, a superior Mangekyo user to even catch his son's initial level of speed there were _five_ Susano'o's needed.



This is false as the five didn't do it. It took a distracted A and 1 Susanoo clone to put him in a genjutsu, not five.


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## Baroxio (Nov 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I've seen it translated differently, but I do remember seeing people argue about that in the past. Can you show me your source, just so I can confirm?



_"I can't believe I had to guard myself with an Enton"_


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## nmwn93 (Nov 25, 2013)

Itachi wins off of popularity. lol! people on this thread would have him winning no matter what sadly. I will go with raikage. see sasuke has a way better control of the amatarasu and he couldn't hit the raikage. I think raikage are well aware of the uchia's genjutsu prowess and knowing ay he will not hesitate at all as soon as he sets eyes on itachi its on. itachi has a chance with susanoo, but only depending on how raikage starts the match. if he starts at full speed then can he hit itachi faster than itachi can erect a susanoo? not to gimp itachi he has a hell of a chance and if he is willing to sacrifice  an eye using izanagi or something then he can take this too. so I correct my self I think its 50/50


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke hadn't had his speed training yet, *so he was unable to push his body further with chakra*. Using a very young and inexperienced ninja to form the golden rule for elites is, again, pointless.​




I was reading through these posts, and this stuck out to me.

Is your stance that increasing reflexes simultaneously increases body speed? If that's true, what does Chakra have to do with anything? 

Back at the VotE fight, the addition of the 3rd Tome gave Sasuke precognition, it didn't make him physically faster.  He didn't have enough time to react to Naruto before it, but precognition increases that time, does it not?


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## Master Sephiroth (Nov 25, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> _"I can't believe I had to guard myself with an Enton"_



The context of that sentence makes no sense. He praised his absolute defense just after. 



That's another scan of it.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I was reading through these posts, and this stuck out to me.
> 
> Is your stance that increasing reflexes simultaneously increases body speed? If that's true, what does Chakra have to do with anything?



No, the body's speed is increased with chakra vitalization, which is the same mechanic used for shunshin. With enhanced reflexes, you can apply higher chakra vitalization more skillfully.

Even though ninja with lesser reflexes _can_ move faster with shunshin, they don't fight at that level because they can't perceive things at that level well enough to fight competently.​


> Appearing along with the wind, disappearing like the wind: the ninja's instantaneous movement technique. This super fast movement is almost impossible to grasp with the naked eye. If seen by an ordinary person, it would seem as if the user has teleported... *In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds.* The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point.



So ninja with reflex enhancement actually do move faster once their reflexes have been enhanced, because they're able to vitalize their body with more chakra and apply it skillfully.

And if you still don't believe me, it's said here 1​


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> No, *the body's speed is increased with chakra vitalization*, which is the same mechanic used for shunshin. With enhanced reflexes, you can apply higher chakra vitalization more skillfully.​






Is this a thing? When was this mechanic introduced or explained? I'm not talking about Shunshin, which isn't normal movement speed, but Ninjutsu. Sasuke never used the Body Flicker against Naruto back at the VotE.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

I edited my above post with actual proof about the Sharingan. 

As for chakra vitalization, yeah, it's always been a thing. 
​


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Which, FYI, is why I've always argued to you that chakra control is integral to speed, and is why Itachi even without his Sharingan would be faster than Gai. He has 5/5 reflexes and chakra control.​


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Eh. Makes sense. I guess that is why Naruto, who has rather average speed in Base, can blitz half the verse to death just because his Chakra pool grows larger (Bijuu Mode). 

But that begs the question: Why is Madara not on Ei or KCM Naruto's speed tier, despite his comparable reflexes and Chakra?


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## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

No it begs the question why EMS Sasuke isn't above BM Naruto's speed tier despite having the same exact reflexes as BSM Naruto.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Sasuke's molding and Chakra pool are pitiful compared to an Uzamaki Perfect Sage Jinchuriki of Kurama stacking all of those boosts.


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## Ersa (Nov 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> No it begs the question why EMS Sasuke isn't on BM Naruto's speed tier despite having the same exact reflexes as BSM Naruto.


If your reflexes are similar you should be pretty comparable in CQC speed. That doesn't really apply to Shunshin I feel which BSM Naruto is far superior in.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Right. The final factor is how much chakra is spent. As A showed in chapter 463 when Karin mentioned him building a bijū-amount of chakra for his v2 flicker. 

Madara and Sage Hashirama are likely capable if they wanted, but they have better jutsu to spend chakra on. The people that use those flickers are rather linear in comparison.​


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Madara as fast as the Raikage? You're starting to loose me.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Madara as fast as the Raikage? You're starting to loose me.



The "v2" Raikage is the Raikage using a shunshin jutsu that he puts bijū amounts of chakra into. Madara has bijū amounts of chakra, so he could presumably do the same thing. 

However, it's more efficient to put up Susano'o instead. That way the Raikage just wasted a bijū's worth of chakra and Madara is sitting pretty with 99% of his energy left.​


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

> The people that use those flickers are rather linear in comparison.




Naruto is exponentially more versatile than Madara.



Strategoob said:


> Madara is IMO as fast as v1 Raikage. The "v2" Raikage is the Raikage using a shunshin jutsu that he puts bijū amounts of chakra into. Madara has bijū amounts of chakra, so he could presumably do the same thing.​




So could Sage Naruto in theory, who has that "v1" Raikage speed and Bijuu level Chakra.

But the thing is....that doesn't make sense for Naruto to be that fast.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto is exponentially more versatile than Madara.



Not in style.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So could Sage Naruto in theory, who has that "v1" Raikage speed and Bijuu level Chakra.
> 
> But the thing is....that doesn't make sense for Naruto to be that fast.



Sage Naruto blitzed Asura with a shunshin IIRC. If that wasn't v2 level, the only thing stopping it from being so was Naruto being conservative with his chakra at the time.​


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Not in style.




What does that mean? Naruto is factually more versatile than Madara.



Strategoob said:


> Sage Naruto has used impressive shunshin, as has Sage Jiriaya for that matter. People just hype new modes.
> 
> Sage Naruto blitzed Asura with a shunshin IIRC. If that wasn't v2 level, the only thing stopping it from being so was Naruto being conservative with his chakra at the time.​




So Sage Mode Naruto can dodge Amaterasu, v2 Ei, etc...?


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## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke's molding and Chakra pool are pitiful compared to an Uzamaki Perfect Sage Jinchuriki of Kurama stacking all of those boosts.



well wouldn't that mean that it's not about reactions then?



Kyokan said:


> If your reflexes are similar you should be pretty comparable in CQC speed. That doesn't really apply to Shunshin I feel which BSM Naruto is far superior in.



IMO kishi's VoTe example still holds true: boosted reflexes can be overcome by greater speed even in CQC fighting, and vice versa, greater speed can be overcome by boosted reflexes.

if KCM Naruto and edo Itachi duke it out evenly, then Naruto makes up for lack of sharingan reactions with just more raw speed.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So Sage Mode Naruto can dodge Amaterasu, v2 Ei, etc...?



A dodged Amaterasu because he was prepping to. If Naruto dumped a Shukaku's-worth of chakra into a shunshin and used his sage senses to know when Amaterasu was coming, sure. Why not?

Base Naruto doesn't have as much chakra as A though. Kurama does, however, which is why we didn't see mega-shunshin from Naruto until he had sugar-daddy Kurama giving him bijū goodies.​


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> well wouldn't that mean that it's not about reactions then?




Strat is arguing that it's about _Chakra_ and reflexes.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> A dodged Amaterasu because he was prepping to. If Naruto dumped bijū chakra into a shunshin and used his sage senses to know when Amaterasu was coming, sure. Why not?




Documented for later use. 



> Sage Naruto doesn't have as much chakra as A though.




Why not? He has the 5/5 Chakra pool, the bloodline boost (Uzumaki), _and _Sage Mode.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Documented for later use.



It's not IC, and Naruto didn't have that chakra at his disposable.​


Rocky said:


> Why not? He has the 5/5 Chakra pool, the bloodline boost (Uzumaki), _and _Sage Mode.



Kakashi said Naruto without Kurama had only twice the amount Kakashi did. That's a lot, but he's hardly a beast without a tail.​


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It's not IC, and IMO Naruto didn't have that chakra at his disposable.​




Sage Naruto doesn't have Bijuu levels of Chakra at his disposal? He can casually form spiraling spheres of pure Chakra that hollow mountains....




> Kakashi said Naruto without Kurama had only twice the amount Kakashi did IIRC.​




He wasn't talking about Current Naruto (Chakra pool can grow just like anything else), and he sure as hell wasn't talking about Current Sage Mode Naruto.


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## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It's not IC, and Naruto didn't have that chakra at his disposable.​



What exactly is a 'bijuu level' shunshin?  I'm pretty sure Ei is not burning an equivalent of Shikaku's chakra into each of his V2 shunshins.

In addition to that, SM Naruto doesn't need anywhere near what Ei needs to perform the shunshin as shunshin is ninjutsu, and as we all know SM massively enhances all nin, gen and tai.



Strategoob said:


> Kakashi said Naruto without Kurama had only twice the amount Kakashi did. That's a lot, but he's hardly a beast without a tail.​


he said 'at least twice', and that was way back when naruto barely had enough chakra to make 2 incomplete FRS.  In the pain arc, he entered sennin mode a total of 5 times, each of which allows him to use 2 completed FRS in addition to some minor ninjutsu, that puts him at more than 5* his wind arc capacity, and then in the war he can use 3 FRS per sennin mode which puts it at 7.5* his wind arc capacity.  Finally in the last chapter he's attempting a chou oodama FRS which i really hope is in Sennin mode, which puts his capacity levels beyond what it was back in the fuuton arc.



Strategoob said:


> And Itachi's invincible.


except 'itachi's invicinble' is a no limits statement that can be easily disproven, however 'hollows out a mountain' is a definitive limited statement, that you can't disprove and that is supported by the destruction feats of smaller rasengans.



Strategoob said:


> Sage Mode doesn't increase the amount of stored chakra.
> 
> It has a rejuvenating effect and makes chakra more potent.


SM does increase the amount of stored chakra as natural energy takes up 1/3 of the component of Sennin chakra.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He can casually



I'm pretty sure he had to count his shots carefully. Not casual.



Rocky said:


> hollow mountains....



 And Itachi's invincible.



Rocky said:


> and he sure as hell wasn't talking about Current Sage Mode Naruto.



Sage Mode doesn't increase the amount of stored chakra. 

It has a rejuvenating effect and makes chakra more potent.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I'm pretty sure he had to count his shots carefully. Not casual.




He never had to count his Odama Rasengans.



> And Yata reflects the moon.




I'm not going to take you seriously if _you _of all people attempt to ignore the Databook now. 




> Sage Mode doesn't increase the amount of stored chakra.




Base Hashirama doesn't have enough Chakra to use Shunsuusenju so I think it would.


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## Sans (Nov 25, 2013)

I have so little fucks to give for this debating point.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> And Itachi's invincible.




Kishimoto flat out  what a technique does when it explodes is different than Zetsu's opinion of Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I'm not going to take you seriously if _you _of all people attempt to ignore the Databook now.



There are hyperbole. Haku doesn't move at light speed, does he? Itachi's not really incinvible against anybody, right? The Rasengan hollowing out a mountain is just like that. Over the top.​


Rocky said:


> Base Hashirama doesn't have enough Chakra to use Shunsuusenju so I think it would.



Like your DB entry says, natural energy makes jutsu more potent. It doesn't give the user more chakra, but makes their jutsu better and also rejuvenates them, I believe.​


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## Sans (Nov 25, 2013)

I'll hollow out your mountain.


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## Baroxio (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kishimoto flat out  what a technique does when it explodes is different than Zetsu's opinion of Itachi.


Does Amaterasu burn hotter than the sun?


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## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I love stats, and basic mechanics, and the feel for certain things, but there are hyperbole. Haku doesn't move at light speed, does he? The Rasengan hollowing out a mountain is just like that.​





Baroxio said:


> Does Amaterasu burn hotter than the sun?



Haku doesn't move at light speed because we can prove he doesn't move at light speed, just like amaterasu doesn't burn as hot as the sun because we can prove it's not as hot as the sun.

If we never saw haku fight and all we had was the databook, then what conclusion would we draw about haku's speed?  Obviously that his jutsu allows him to move at lightspeed.

It's the same with amaterasu, if it we were never given any evidence against the notion of it burning as hot as the sun, then for all purposes it would burn as hot as the sun.

Thus you can't simply write off SM COR as hyperbole because some other jutsus have databook statements that have been disproven because there are other jutsus who's databook statements have been proven and supported by the manga.  Thus if you want to argue against the databook the burden of proof is on you to bring up why the manga disproves it.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I love stats, and basic mechanics, and the feel for certain things, but there are hyperbole. Haku doesn't move at light speed, does he? The Rasengan hollowing out a mountain is just like that.​




I don't think it's hyperbole if you look at what Preskip Naruto's newly complete Rasengan did to that water tower. 

Haku doesn't move at the speed of light because he wasn't shown to move that fast in the Manga. We've never seen a Sage Chaoodama Rasengan explode on the environment....so how can you tell this is Kishimoto's hyperbole? Is mountain destruction uncommon?





> It makes chakra more potent.​




Which means what, exactly.



Baroxio said:


> Does Amaterasu burn hotter than the sun?




Itachi's? The sun isn't exactly at one temerature, but yeah, probably around there. Itachi's melted through whatever it faced, including Sasuke's fireproof wing and Jiraiya's fireproof toad, etc. It was damn hot.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Haku doesn't move at light speed because we can prove he doesn't move at light speed, just like amaterasu doesn't burn as hot as the sun because we can prove it's not as hot as the sun.
> 
> If we never saw haku fight and all we had was the databook, then what conclusion would we draw about haku's speed?  Obviously that his jutsu allows him to move at lightspeed.



So what I'm hearing is that you agree the Yata Mirror reflects Jūbidama and the Totsuka panels the Jūbi. Because we didn't see it not do that.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Which means what, exactly.



Potency is defined as a male's ability to achieve an erection or to reach orgasm. Open a goddamn dictionary, bro.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

I know what the word means. But if Hashirama lacks the Chakra to form that statue in Base, how is more potent Chakra going to help?

What even is "stronger" Chakra? Does that mean more?


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## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> So what I'm hearing is that you agree the Yata Mirror reflects Jūbidama and the Totsuka panels the Jūbi. Because we didn't see it not do that.



nope, because that's a no limits statement that gives no definitive limit on a jutsu unlike amaterasu, haku's mirrors, COR etc, and thus they most definitely are hyperbole.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> So what I'm hearing is that you agree the Yata Mirror reflects Jūbidama and the Totsuka panels the Jūbi. Because we didn't see it not do that.




"Reflects all attacks" is obviously exaggeration simply because of that word _all._ If you want to hold true to that, it's no limits fallacy. 

"It can easily hollow out a mountain" doesn't sound like hyperbole, does it? It sounds like the author is actually giving us a cap for the Jutsu...


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Oh, so unsupported hyperbole are okay as long as it isn't said to have a limit. That makes sense. Light speed, mountains, whatever.


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## Sans (Nov 25, 2013)

Anyone remember when my posts were actually good?

Yeah, me neither.


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## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Light speed isn't a no limits fallacy. Nor is the sun's temperature.



Um, that's exactly what i said, reread the post.  If we've never seen haku move via mirrors, then he'd move at lightspeed, which is a definitive level of speed.  The only reason why we say he can't move at lightspeed is because when he actually does move via mirrors in the manga we see he doesn't move at light speed.

Same for amaterasu.  Since it's not a no limits statement, then it would get the sun's temperature until proven otherwise.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

I did haha, my bad.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Oh, so obviously wrong hyperbole are okay as long as it isn't said to have a limit. That makes sense. Light speed, mountains, whatever.




And how exactly can _you_ tell what is Hyperbole and what is not?


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> And how exactly can _you_ tell what is Hyperbole and what is not?



Because they don't line up with feats...


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## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Because they don't line up with feats...



Then you are basically agreeing that if there is a definitive and quantified limit of a jutsu stated by databook, that it is only falsified if the feats disprove that statement am i right?

Well, what feats disprove SM COR from being a mountain hollower?


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## Sans (Nov 25, 2013)

Holy shit I think I'm a ghost and no one can even see my posts.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Or a _lack_ of feats for incredulous statements, like Jiraiya casually destroying mountains.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Because they don't line up with feats...




_Which feats?_

A full power Senpou: Chaoodama Rasengan was used once, and it was absorbed by Pain. How the hell could you judge its destructive capacity based on that?

I though when a Jutsu lacked showings, we were supposed to use the Databook to figure out more about its strengths and abilities...not throw out what the Databook says because it's power wasn't displayed in the Manga....

As long as the Databook doesn't _contradict_ the Manga, I though it was fair game. No Limits Fallacy is something different though, of course. The Yata Mirror is a prime example of it, just as the Helmet Splitter sword that the Mist Swordsman uses is. It was said to "crush any and all defenses," but that's obviously an exaggeration. I don't see how hollowing a mountain with a Rasengan variant two stages stronger than normal, powered by Senjutsu, is even _comparable_ to "Yata Mirror tanks Jubidama because it tanks all attacks ever made."


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Or a lack of feats.



that statement doesn't line up with your statement that says 'Because they don't line up with feats...' since the ability to not line up with feats requires there to be feats in the first place.

In addition to that, SM COR being a mountain hollower is backed up by feats of smaller rasengans vs environment so it's actually supported by the manga.

Next, by your logic, any statement in the databook, no matter how conservative or how amazing, if not proven to be true by the manga those statements are false.



Strategoob said:


> Or a _lack_ of feats for incredulous statements, like Jiraiya casually destroying mountains.


by who's standards are these statements deemed 'incredulous'?  A chidori weaker than the weakest rasengan Naruto made *yielded a 6 foot wide crater in a rock formation.*  that means the absolute lowest limit of a 4 inch wide rasengan gives a 72 inch crater.  If SM COR is what *15+ feet wide* it makes a crater 270+ feet wide, that's more than enough to hollow out the low end mountains of the NV. 

In addition to that, SM COR isn't a mountain destroyer, only a mountain hollower.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Mountain-busting is conservative. Kay.

v1 Susano'o blocked a mountain-buster? Nah.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 25, 2013)

But it could also mean Itachi tanked Kirin in V1


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> But it could also mean Itachi tanked Kirin in V1



A lot of people said that hill wasn't big enough to be a mountain.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> v1 Susano'o blocked a mountain-buster? Nah.



A full strength Senpou: Chaoodama Rasengan is a supposed mountain hollower. 

Regular Chaoodama Rasengan used by Naruto's clone is not.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Naruto's clone with Kurama's chakra used the same jutsu. It was a big Rasengan. That's all. He just used bijū chakra instead of using natural energy to increase the size.​


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Naruto's clone with Kurama's chakra used the same jutsu. It was a big Rasengan. That's all. He just used bijū chakra instead of using natural energy to increase the size.​




Naruto was in Base, so no he wasn't using the Kyuubi Chakra. Sage Mode augments all Ninjutsu, so it wasn't the same as the Senjutsu technique that is the hyped mountain hollower.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto was in Base, so no he wasn't using the Kyuubi Chakra. Sage Mode augments all Ninjutsu, so it wasn't the same as the Senjutsu technique that is the hyped mountain hollower.



Yeah, he was using it. We saw an un-cloaked Naruto and clones use a bunch of them against Madara's Mokuton and he clearly credited it to Kurama's chakra afterward.

The hyped jutsu your talking about literally says it's just a bigger Rasengan. Naruto made a bigger Rasengan via Kurama's chakra. This argument is pointless.

Hell. Preta Path held the "mountain-buster" before absorbing it. So let's instead argue about Frog Katas striking with the force that could shatter a thousand mountains.​


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Mountain-busting is conservative. Kay.
> 
> v1 Susano'o blocked a mountain-buster? Nah.



V1 susanoo blocked an unexploded base COR and madara dispelled the technique by knocking naruto and his clone away before the rasengan could eat through his ribcage.  

Base COR isn't a mountain hollower anyways.



Strategoob said:


> Naruto's clone with Kurama's chakra used the same jutsu. It was a big Rasengan. That's all. He just used bijū chakra instead of using natural energy to increase the size.​



There is an enormous difference in the size of *a base COR* and *a SM COR.*



Strategoob said:


> A lot of people said that hill wasn't big enough to be a mountain.


doesn't matter what a lot of people think, it only matters what kishi thinks and the low end for mountains in NV are much smaller than the uchiha compound.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He had free access to the chakra at that point, so yeah, he was using it. We saw an un-cloaked Naruto and clones use a bunch of them against Madara's Mokuton and he clearly credited it to Kurama's chakra.
> 
> The hyped jutsu your talking about literally says it's just a biger Rasengan. Naruto made a bigger Rasengan. This argument is nonsense.​






Are you kidding me? Naruto ran out out of Kurama's Chakra. You speak like you didn't even read. Naruto didn't have free access to shit. Kurama had to lend it to him.

Even then, he didn't use the Jutsu that the Databook classifies as the mountain hollower, so I don't know where you're going with this.



> Hell. Preta Path held the "mountain-buster" before absorbing it.




Yeah, and KCM Naruto pushed Bee's Bijuudama. So what? Jiraiya's technique didn't exactly explode on Preta Pain.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Are you kidding me? Naruto ran out out of Kurama's Chakra.* You speak like you didn't even read.*







Strategoob said:


> Yeah, he was using it. We saw an un-cloaked Naruto and clones use a bunch of them against Madara's Mokuton and he clearly credited it to Kurama's chakra afterward.



He could ask for chakra and be given it at that point.


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## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Are we even arguing about the same point? You said Naruto used the Kyuubi Chakra for this, which he didn't. Kurama needs to _give it to him_ if Naruto doesn't have the cloak, as we saw against Madara's Mokuton.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> There is an enormous difference in the size of *a base COR* and *a SM COR.*



Jiriaya's (DB hype) is much more like the former.

Naruto's in the second image would probably destroy the continent.

Right? 

Right.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Are we even arguing about the same point? You said Naruto used the Kyuubi Chakra for this, which he didn't. Kurama needs to _give it to him_ if Naruto doesn't have the cloak, as we saw against Madara's Mokuton.



And as I just showed in the last scan, Naruto doesn't need a cloak to use Kurama's chakra. He used those clones and giant Rasengan against Madara and said it was Kurama's chakra.

So he used Kurama's chakra that he'd taken, because base Naruto could never do anything like that prior to bijū training. Or did he just incidentally increase stamina by 1000% at the same time?​


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## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

What about all my other points?  The dispelling of the base COR, destruction of environment of smaller rasengans, mountain hollower =/= mountain buster....



Strategoob said:


> Jiriaya's (DB hype) is much more like the former.
> 
> Naruto's would probably destroy the continent.



Jiraiya is almost 6'3 while naruto is 5'4 and if you take that into account jiraiya to rasengan is much closer to SM COR than COR.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> And as I just showed in the last scan, Naruto doesn't need a cloak to use Kurama's chakra. He used those clones and giant Rasengan against Madara and said it was Kurama's chakra.
> 
> So he used Kurama's chakra that he'd taken, because base Naruto could never do anything like that prior to bijū training. Or did he just incidentally increase stamina by 1000% at the same time?​




....

 Kurama _*lent*_ Naruto his Chakra against Madara's Mokuton attack.

Kurama did no such thing for Naruto's Choadama Rasengan on Madara's Susano'o (which, by the way, needs to penetrate its target to do any "hollowing"). Do you realize that Naruto attacked Susano'o _before_ he faced Madara's Mokuton?


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## Sadgoob (Nov 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Jiraiya is almost 6'3 while naruto is 5'4 and if you take that into account jiraiya to rasengan is much closer to SM COR than COR.



I don't think so. Jiriaya's is way smaller.



Rocky said:


> ....
> 
> Kurama _*lent*_ Naruto his Chakra against Madara's Mokuton attack.
> 
> Kurama did no such thing for Naruto's Choadama Rasengan on Madara's Susano'o (which, by the way, needs to penetrate its target to do any "hollowing"). Do you realize that Naruto attacked Susano'o _before_ he faced Madara's Mokuton?



Right. But Naruto had some of Kurama's chakra from his bijū training.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Right. But Naruto had Kurama's chakra from his bijū training.




He was out of that. When he draws from the Chakra he took from Kurama during the Bijuu training, he turns yellow and black.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think so. Jiriaya's is way smaller.


it's actually about right in the middle between the two


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Thus you can't simply write off SM COR as hyperbole because some other jutsus have databook statements that have been disproven because there are other jutsus who's databook statements have been proven and supported by the manga.  Thus if you want to argue against the databook the burden of proof is on you to bring up why the manga disproves it.



We've seen the explosion from COR when Naruto hit Kurama with it. 
It wasn't even big enough to hollow out a 2 story building.
If COR was strong enough to hollow out a mountain, then it'd be in the same ballpark as a high tier Bijuudama, even FRS isn't in that ballpark, so its explosion would have to be comparable to a Bijuudama's.

And going by your logic, we have to believe that Itachi is actually invincible when he is using shield of Yata. Because the databook says all kinds of attacks are rendered null, make it spiritual, ninjutsu or physical. Also the good thing is, Yata's limits aren't tested yet 


To sum up this argument : COR can't hollow out a mountain because the evidence in the manga contradicts it.
Shield of Yata can tank everything because there is nothing in the manga that contradicts it


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 25, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> _"I can't believe I had to guard myself with an Enton"_



I thought that was the mistranslation.



Neko White said:


> Itachi wins off of popularity. lol! people on this thread would have him winning no matter what sadly.



It has nothing to do with popularity. Most people think Itachi wins because most people believe Itachi has better feats and the right combination of abilities to do it; the only people saying otherwise are Vice and SSM12, and not only are both of them notorious Itachi haters, but Vice actually admitted outright that he was being purposely dishonest in this thread to gimp Itachi (and even though SSM12 didn't admit it, let's be honest- he isn't fooling anyone, except maybe himself).



> I will go with raikage. see sasuke has a way better control of the amatarasu and he couldn't hit the raikage. I think raikage are well aware of the uchia's genjutsu prowess and knowing ay he will not hesitate at all as soon as he sets eyes on itachi its on. itachi has a chance with susanoo, but only depending on how raikage starts the match. if he starts at full speed then can he hit itachi faster than itachi can erect a susanoo? not to gimp itachi he has a hell of a chance and if he is willing to sacrifice  an eye using izanagi or something then he can take this too. so I correct my self I think its 50/50



Wrong Raikage; this is the 3rd, not the 4th (A).

Also, Itachi cannot use Izanagi. But he doesn't need it here.


----------



## Vice (Nov 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It has nothing to do with popularity.



It has everything to do with popularity.



> Most people think Itachi wins because most people believe Itachi has better feats and the right combination of abilities to do it



Except this assertion that he has better feats is blatantly false. He has good feats against guys who play to his strengths like when Deidara tried to out genjutsu him or against guys who aren't even paying attention to him like Nagato, or to guys who are outright trying to tank his jutsus like with part 1 Kakashi and Orochimaru, but he was completely pitiful against Kabuto and had to resort to a blatant asspull that even defied the logic of it's own plot.

This notion that Itachi has the abilities to do so completely undermines Raikage's abilities. This isn't just the two of them standing there waiting for Itachi to do whatever the fuck he wants. Raikage's feats against the same BM Naruto that Itachi could barely stalemate against suggests he's faster than Itachi. Clearly Naruto didn't put forth nearly the same effort against Itachi than he did against Raikage.



> the only people saying otherwise are Vice and SSM12, and not only are both of them notorious Itachi haters



Uh. no. Plenty of other people have said the Raikage could win. In fact, the only people who are saying Itachi could win are the same people who always say Itachi could win. Please stop pretending that the bias is one-sided here.



> but Vice actually admitted outright that he was being purposely dishonest in this thread to gimp Itachi



I did no such thing. Amaterasu's shit inconsistent feats speak for themselves.



> (and even though SSM12 didn't admit it, let's be honest- he isn't fooling anyone, except maybe himself).



Again, you constantly bitch about this shit yet say nothing when your pro-Itachi brethren troll all over the forums. How about you start taking a stand then if this shit bothers you so much?

Just because SSM12 says shit you don't want to believe doesn't mean he's trolling. His responses are infinitely better than "Itachi soloz!!1" and "finger genjutsu gg" any day of the week.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We've seen the explosion from COR when Naruto hit Kurama with it.
> It wasn't even big enough to hollow out a 2 story building.


We've also seen the explosion of a SM rasengan when Naruto hit sandaime raikage with it and *it wasn't even large enough to hollow out a watermelon.*  , yet *chunnin exam sasuke's chidori* which is weaker than even current naruto's base rasengan makes a 6 foot crater in a boulder. 

so no, the 'explosion' a rasengan yields on a singular very durable target has nothing to do with how much damage ti would do to the environment had it been used on the environment directly.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If COR was strong enough to hollow out a mountain, then it'd be in the same ballpark as a high tier Bijuudama, even FRS isn't in that ballpark, so its explosion would have to be comparable to a Bijuudama's.


It doesn't have to be anywhere near a high tier bijuudama, first off vaporizing mountains takes a totally different level of power than what it takes to hollow one out, second, bijuudamas don't only vaporize a mountain they cause a crater and destroy everything else that's in the blast radius, third bijuudamas vaporize high end mountains, it's not the bottom of the barrel of what Kishi considers a mountain.

So... nep.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> And going by your logic, we have to believe that Itachi is actually invincible when he is using shield of Yata. Because the databook says all kinds of attacks are rendered null, make it spiritual, ninjutsu or physical. Also the good thing is, Yata's limits aren't tested yet


already addressed since 'invincible' 'pierces anything' 'no one can survive' are all no limits statements and thus hyperbole unlike set and finite definitions such as hollowing out mountain.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> To sum up this argument : COR can't hollow out a mountain because the evidence in the manga contradicts it.
> Shield of Yata can tank everything because there is nothing in the manga that contradicts it


The sum of the argument is that SM COR can hollow out a mountain because the evidence of the manga heavily supports it:
- chuunin exam sasuke's chidori = 6 foot high crater in solid rock.
- naruto's weakest rasengan (4 inches wide) > CE sasuke chidori
- SM COR (15-20+ feet) scaled to the weakest rasengan:environment damage ratio = 15*72/4 = 270.  The SM COR would produce a 270 foot crater if allowed to inflict its total damage on a mountain which can easily hollow out the lower limit mountains of NV possibly even the low-mid.

The shield of yaata on the other hand can't tank everything because it's a no limits statement which is hyperbole and not a set and limited definition.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 25, 2013)

Vice said:


> It has everything to do with popularity.



Tell yourself whatever you want, Vice. You're wrong. 



> Except this assertion that he has better feats is blatantly false. He has good feats against guys who play to his strengths



No, man. Itachi has good feats that are applicable against anyone who isn't walking Kryptonite to him, just like the vast majority of other Kage-level shinobi.



> like when Deidara tried to out genjutsu him



Deidara has never used a single Genjutsu in his entire existence in the manga. He was caught in Itachi's Genjutsu because he had no knowledge of it and he made eye contact.



> or against guys who aren't even paying attention to him like Nagato,



Nagato is on a completely different level than the 3rd Raikage; _most_ shinobi would need to catch him off-guard, although Itachi didn't seem to have any trouble Amaterasuing him in the face or sticking the Totsuka through him from the front either.



> or to guys who are outright trying to tank his jutsus like with part 1 Kakashi and Orochimaru,



Orochimaru couldn't believe he had been caught, so I don't get the impression he was trying to be.



> but he was completely pitiful against Kabuto



Kabuto having full knowledge of his abilities and Itachi having none largely influenced how that battle played out. Even Sasuke, who was familiar with the abilities Kabuto was using and feeding Itachi intel the whole time, didn't know Kabuto could use them until after the fact, and there were some (like Muki Tensei) even he didn't know about. Let's also not forget that killing or sealing Kabuto was off-limits.

Then again, I don't know why you are taking Sage Kabuto of all people lightly in the first place.



> and had to resort to a blatant asspull that even defied the logic of it's own plot.



It makes sense for what it is. The whole "you take the right path or you take the wrong path" dichotomy has been an important motif in the manga for a while now; Kishi finally just went and turned it into a Genjutsu that forces you to keep trying until you take the right path.



> This notion that Itachi has the abilities to do so completely undermines Raikage's abilities.



It doesn't undermine them at all. Nobody denies that the 3rd is hella-fast and durable, with offensive power to match, but he's not far enough from Itachi to avoid being taken down by his Jutsu. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu still present serious threats to his life and clone feints can allow Itachi to mitigate the speed difference if it really is too troublesome. Itachi is smarter, more skilled, and more versatile, with hax that punches well above the 3rd's paygrade (let's see _him_ take down Nagato).



> This isn't just the two of them standing there waiting for Itachi to do whatever the fuck he wants. Raikage's feats against the same BM Naruto that Itachi could barely stalemate against suggests he's faster than Itachi.



The 3rd never fought BM Naruto; he fought a KCM Naruto at 1/13th power, who Itachi was proven comparable to in a Taijutsu exchange.



> Clearly Naruto didn't put forth nearly the same effort against Itachi than he did against Raikage.



Clearly...based on nothing except the fact that Itachi held his own, apparently. Way to affirm the consequent.

So instead of just accepting that Itachi is that fast, you make assumptions the manga never endorsed so that you don't have to also accept that Itachi is not too slow to hit the Raikage. 



> Uh. no. Plenty of other people have said the Raikage could win. In fact, the only people who are saying Itachi could win are the same people who always say Itachi could win.



Count up the number of people who have voted for them in this thread and you'll see that the majority of them favor Itachi's chances.



> Please stop pretending that the bias is one-sided here.



The bias may not be completely one-sided but there is definitely an unequal share among both sides. You've already openly admitted that you're embellishing.



> I did no such thing.



You did- multiple times. You tried to use it as leverage against me, in some misguided attempt to get me to stop wanking Itachi or tolerating it from others, as if I give a shit how badly you harpoon your own reputation.



> Amaterasu's shit inconsistent feats speak for themselves.



Are Amaterasu's feats inconsistent? Yes- highly. Are they all shit? Definitely not.



> Again, you constantly bitch about this shit yet say nothing when your pro-Itachi brethren troll all over the forums. How about you start taking a stand then if this shit bothers you so much?



I tend to scrutinize people with viewpoints different than my own a lot more because they're the ones I argue with. It's not that I don't care what the Itachi fans do- it's just that I don't see it because my attention is elsewhere. I don't like arguing with people who agree with me; it feels like verbal jacking-off.

That's why I'm not a member of any fan clubs. Fan clubs are just uber lame circle jerks. 



> Just because SSM12 says shit you don't want to believe doesn't mean he's trolling.



SSM12 espouses shit that is factually incorrect or unproven and passes it off as given fact without the slightest hint of a critical thought.



> His responses are infinitely better than "Itachi soloz!!1" and "finger genjutsu gg" any day of the week.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The FRS, Bijudama, and Magatama all were equalized in speed due to the gravitational pull of Chibaku Tensei. Basically, all 'fell' at the same rate.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kimimaro could survive heat and pressures 200 meters below the Earth, so Katons aren't doing anything to him.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya in base was sent crashing through thick steel pipes and through a skyscraper and then retaliated while in Sage Mode. And the Raikage isn't as durable as a Sage Mode user anyway.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize electricity cancels out electricity, right? Its basically putting two opposite charges together.



The guy's mind is like a train wreck of scientific inaccuracies and poor judgment in general.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Nov 25, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> While I've no doubt Itachi can successfully land an Amaterasu on the likes of the Third Raikage, Susano'o's hand grip is by no means powerful enough to bind someone as physically powerful as him. When it comes to strength feats, Susano'o in general (excluding the Perfect form, of course) are extremely underwhelming.




A level 3 or above hand grip is enough to hold the raikage he's strong but he's not escaping it. I don't see it happening and if he can he will be in that hand grip for more than long enough for itachi to Amaterasu his face


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> We've also seen the explosion of a SM rasengan when Naruto hit sandaime raikage with it and *it wasn't even large enough to hollow out a watermelon.*  , yet *chunnin exam sasuke's chidori* which is weaker than even current naruto's base rasengan makes a 6 foot crater in a boulder.
> 
> so no, the 'explosion' a rasengan yields on a singular very durable target has nothing to do with how much damage ti would do to the environment had it been used on the environment directly.




Utter BS. 

Then why isn't this the case for FRS ? It more or less crates a similar crater/explosion regardless of who it hits.

You just love to nitpick don't you ?



> It doesn't have to be anywhere near a high tier bijuudama, first off vaporizing mountains takes a totally different level of power than what it takes to hollow one out, second, bijuudamas don't only vaporize a mountain they cause a crater and destroy everything else that's in the blast radius, third bijuudamas vaporize high end mountains, it's not the bottom of the barrel of what Kishi considers a mountain.
> 
> So... nep.



To hollow a mountain means to crate a hole nearly as big as a mountain, while it isn't exactly the same as destroying it, it is fairly close to it.

So again you are nitpicking, does the databook specify what kind of a mountain that is, or is it some bs you made up yourself ? 




> already addressed since 'invincible' 'pierces anything' 'no one can survive' are all no limits statements and thus hyperbole unlike set and finite definitions such as hollowing out mountain.


Databook description explicitly states that it stops all kinds of ninjutsu, spiritual and physical attacks.
It is not a hyperbole, it is a explanation of what the shield does.
So unless we know it is limits, we have to go by the databook description and assume that Yata stops all attacks regardless of their nature.



> The sum of the argument is that SM COR can hollow out a mountain because the evidence of the manga heavily supports it:
> - chuunin exam sasuke's chidori = 6 foot high crater in solid rock.
> - naruto's weakest rasengan (4 inches wide) > CE sasuke chidori
> - SM COR (15-20+ feet) scaled to the weakest rasengan:environment damage ratio = 15*72/4 = 270.  The SM COR would produce a 270 foot crater if allowed to inflict its total damage on a mountain which can easily hollow out the lower limit mountains of NV possibly even the low-mid.



Yeah but we've seen COR's explosion. 25 of them could only create an explosion as big as FRS, which isn't anywhere near mountain hollowing level.




> The shield of yaata on the other hand can't tank everything because it's a no limits statement which is hyperbole and not a set and limited definition.



Databook simply explains what the shield does, it isn't anything like "hollow out a mountain", "hard as diamond" or "hot as the sun."

You are being extremely selective about this, claiming that hot as the sun is a hyperbole because Amaterasu didn't live up to it.
Then you might be at least accepting the possiblity that COR may not live up to it either and infact it can be a hyperbole right ?


----------



## Blaze Release (Nov 25, 2013)

First of all i'd like to say Sandaime is greatly underestimated due to his edo feats agains't Naruto. When one shinobi has practically every advantage (naruto) and his opponents every disadvantage (Sandaime), that is kishi imo telling us that under normal circumstances, the shinobi who is greatly at the disadvantage is stronger and will win majority of the times agains't the shinobi with every advantage possible. I do not believe itachi is 'tiers' above sandaime like some say

First of all a dig at the third though.
He was said to have the ultimate shield and spear. Thats nice and all, but itachi holds the ultimate shield and spear. Itachi's shield and spear > Sandaime's. 

Also [1]

"Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful."
Tsukuyomi




On a serious note it is baffling how people believe any shinobi can casually adapt to a strategy or rather fighting style they have never used before and not be hindered by this, seriously it is mind boggling. With Itachi's first arrival, it was stated that with knowledge Gai who is experienced at this strategy can fight the sharingan, by trying to predict their next move via their feet. Not what Asuma says

Link removed

In part 2 kakashi mentions the same strategy and sakura notes the difficulty.
Link removed
Link removed

Even if we say Sandaime will not go strictly according to this strategy (trying to judge itachi's movement by his body and feet), his eyes therefore his head will surely always be fully concentrated on the ground, that or he will try and concentrate his eyes just below itachi's head like this. [1] Part from the fact that he is still suspect to 'finger genjutsu', he can get still get caught in a sharingan genjutsu if he takes the second option of looking just below itachi's head as its up to itachi to take note and make eye contact.

Itachi is by far the most effective user of genjutsu in the series. His subtlety with this art allowed him to cast an illusion by pointing his finger. Something that kakashi, sakura and chiyo all standing next to naruto had not the clue that, itachi pointing his finger meant something. Even naruto hadn't a clue. 

He also managed to catch deidara in a reality simulation illusion and intentionally allowed himself to be surprised and overcame by deidara's art within the illusion. In real life deidara came close to blowing himself up.

He then trapped kabuto in an illusion with 2 karasu bunshin's.
Itachi: You are under my illusion
Kabuto: Impossible
Itachi: trolololol

Anyway on a serious note. It is one thing having knowledge. It is another thing taking full advantage of this knowledge. Just because a shinobi has knowledge doesn't guarantee the shinobi with full knowledge immunity to his opponents jutsu. No shinobi can casually integrate a new fighting style they have never used before and still maintain their usual fighting posture like people in this thread or the battledome seem to think. This new fighting style will either: cause them confusion, hesistation and lapse in judgement or in the end they will be thinking too much about this new strategy they suddenly have to take on that they will miss the simple thing and may very will be defeated by other means as their opponent make take advantage of their full focus with the strategy on just one aspect of their arsenal. So even with full knowledge you aren't simply escaping the threat of genjutsu from imo the greatest illusionist in the series. 

Some say apart from Ei the kage's did well agains't Madara. Firstly Madara is very much like Sasuke. Their fighting style is more ninjutsu and lately ms ninjutsu than anything. They fall back on genjutsu as a second option. Obito is the same. Itachi is the only shinobi who's main fighting style is genjutsu. Also Madara was toying with the kage's more than anything. Itachi's application of genjutsu far exceeds that of madara or any other uchiha for that matter.

Another way to complicate the scenario and make this fll knowledge redundant is through clones. Itachi fans for whatever reason state clones for other purposes and not genjutsu. Kage bunshin can use the originals techniques and so can karasu bunshin who have feats of casting genjutsu. Itachi can increase his numeric advantage via clones therefore gaining him an even greater chance of casting an illusion on his opponents. Not that in this case i believe it is needed as from what i have seen itachi simply outclasses and outmanoeuvres sandaime. Most likely a couple of steps ahead of him from the start

Anyway both Raikage's are more brawn than brain, therefore i am willing to believe that any reality simulation genjutsu for example the one used on deidara will overcome him and in the end like deidara might injure himself with his own technique or may just be trapped in the illusion, not realizing he is in one.

Even with full knowledge sandaime speed which is likely to be inferior to his sons as there seems to be a trade off between the two in speed and durability. His son gaining the speed advantage and him the durability advantage. If sandaime is slower than his son in v2 then its possible for amaterasu to catch him. The effect of amaterasu makes sandaime's durability irrelevant as it isn't a jutsu that tests durability. Instead it burns the victim. Even when clouded with raiton Ei decided it was best to get rid of the affected hand as he has no way of stopping it and may spread. Or get him in an illusion via a clone and light him up with amaterasu in the real world

If Raikage's shield his body's hype is to be taken as cannon, so should the hype of the totsuka. Therefore that damages him as well.

Itachi simple has the means of defeating sandaime and rendering his durability irrevelant with genjutsu, particuarly tsukuyomi and amaterasu. If possible the totsuka. Raikage's fighting style is too predictable and straight forward to cause itachi any trouble imo​


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Utter BS.


if only that was some kind of argument.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then why isn't this the case for FRS ? It more or less crates a similar crater/explosion regardless of who it hits.
> 
> You just love to nitpick don't you ?


FRS's wind sphere creates a similar crater/explosion because it's far far more concentrated than just a raw explosion similar to how dust release is magnitudes more potent than an explosion of the same size.  That's why only Sasuke's CS2 wing gets taken out by *the massive C2*, yet the C2 explosion doesn't produce any kind of crater in the ground, and why FRS envelopes *half of chibaku tensei crater* when it's detonates as a raw explosion rather than a wind sphere.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> To hollow a mountain means to crate a hole nearly as big as a mountain, while it isn't exactly the same as destroying it, it is fairly close to it.


no it doesn't.  Hollowing out a mountain mean the mountain is still there, just that a significant portion of its insides have been removed.  A  mountain can consist of more than 50% of its original mass and still be considered hollowed out.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> So again you are nitpicking, does the databook specify what kind of a mountain that is, or is it some bs you made up yourself ?


The databook doesn't specify what kind of mountain it is, thus as long as it applies to something that can be considered a mountain, the definition holds true.  If the definition applied to all mountains it would have said 'any mountain' not simply 'a mountain'.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Databook description explicitly states that it stops all kinds of ninjutsu, spiritual and physical attacks.
> It is not a hyperbole, it is a explanation of what the shield does.
> So unless we know it is limits, we have to go by the databook description and assume that Yata stops all attacks regardless of their nature.


stopping all attacks is a straight up no limits statement and thus is hyperbole 101.  




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah but we've seen COR's explosion. 25 of them could only create an explosion as big as FRS, which isn't anywhere near mountain hollowing level.


Already refuted this argument by showing rasengan vs sandaime raikage's arm.  If you disagree with that refutation, attack it, else it's a concession on your part as an ignored argument is a conceded one.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Databook simply explains what the shield does, it isn't anything like "hollow out a mountain", "hard as diamond" or "hot as the sun."


'stops all attacks' is a no limits statement



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are being extremely selective about this, claiming that hot as the sun is a hyperbole because Amaterasu didn't live up to it.
> Then you might be at least accepting the possiblity that COR may not live up to it either and infact it can be a hyperbole right ?


Of course I accept the possibility that COR may not live up to its hyperbole, there's a possibility that any and all ninjutsu don't live up to their databook explanations no matter how conservative they are.  However until there exists some kind of positive manga evidence that prove that possibility to be true then the databook statements stand.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 27, 2013)

I know I'm kind of beating a dead horse at this point, since Vice and SSM12 jumped ship already, but I feel as though I should reiterate that the 3rd Raikage has absolutely zero chance of winning this match.

He fights pretty much exclusively with Nin-Taijutsu, which makes him VERY easy for Itachi to read. There is nothing, NOTHING suggesting that he is as fast as the 4th; Naruto's remark does not imply that.

Even if you assume that he is as fast as the 4th for the sake of argument, Itachi can get around that the same way he can get around the 4th's speed: Clone feinting. Even Dodai sent the 3rd chasing after a decoy; it's absolutely preposterous to assume Itachi couldn't pull that off, given his superior speed and sleight of hand.

Once he has the 3rd distracted, an Amaterasu from behind secures Itachi's victory.


----------



## Vice (Nov 28, 2013)

Beating a dead horse kind of comes with the territory of being an Itachi fan, and honestly, going back and forth with a fanboy who refuses to accept any concessions and outright ignores the advantages the Raikage has here is aggravating, especially ones who say such laughable things as the Raikagenaut, who casually fights bijuus with his bare hands, has 0% chance of beating a guy who can't even use his own techniques more than a couple of times before killing over and has already shown to be prone to being blitzed by slower opponents, and you defend these assertions with nothing more than fanwank bullshit.

Sorry I have no interest in arguing with a guy who thinks someone who can't even properly dodge a shuriken trap, or overcome a casual Naruto's speed or avoid being blitzed by Kabuto could somehow clone feint the Raikage and hit him with Amaterasu before the third can even react.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 28, 2013)

Vice said:


> Beating a dead horse kind of comes with the territory of being an Itachi fan,



Denigrating the entire Itachi fandom is just your own staple defense mechanism that you fall back on out of habit. That awful mindset becomes the lens through which you see me, and that is the reason you're not able to be reasoned with. You put words in my mouth, jump to conclusions about my intent, and throw around old baggage. You affirm your own expectations of Itachi fans and then you nod your head and go "See, I knew it; that's just how they are."

This has nothing to do with what side one is on. You're just a whiner- you, specifically.



> and honestly, going back and forth with a fanboy who refuses to accept any concessions



I accepted some of your premises for the sake of argument (e.g., assuming that the Raikage ARE equally fast, I suggested ways Itachi could deal with that). Yeah, I don't exactly see you doing that anywhere.

But, uh, newsflash: *No one is obligated to concede.* I'm not just going to make concessions because you want me to; if I don't agree with something, I'm not going to concede to it (e.g., I _don't_ agree that the Raikage are proven to be equally fast).



> and outright ignores the advantages the Raikage has here is aggravating,



I acknowledged that the Raikage is faster. I acknowledged that he is durable enough to withstand everything except Itachi's durability-bypassing hax. I didn't even QUESTION that he has more stamina. I am well aware of his advantages; I simply do not share your unilateral assessment that Itachi is going to be ineffective because of them. You have taken my refusal to accept your extremist position and turned it around into me ignoring his advantages. This is exactly what I'm talking about; your deranged mind creates these problems and you actually believe in them.



> especially ones who say such laughable things as the Raikagenaut, who casually fights bijuus with his bare hands,



That by itself is laughable; the 3rd reached a draw with the Hachibi in a fight that left them both unconscious and seriously injured.



> has 0% chance of beating a guy who can't even use his own techniques more than a couple of times before killing over



There's a reason he can't exercise those powers liberally: they are fucking broken as hell. Just one of them could spell death for the Raikage if he takes the hit.

Just because endurance is Itachi's weakness doesn't mean he lacks some very effective strengths.



> and has already shown to be prone to being blitzed by slower opponents,



No one has ever simply been able to blitz Itachi; there were circumstances that made that possible. Could the Raikage blitz Itachi under those same circumstances? Sure. But can he recreate those circumstances himself? No. Itachi won't be deactivating his own Susano'o to activate Izanami, here (and the 3rd doesn't have a pipeline to jump out of within 3 feet of Itachi, either).



> and you defend these assertions with nothing more than fanwank bullshit.



Way to circumvent the argument by bitching about nothing in particular.

I can reduce your entire argument down to the same "fanwank bullshit" surrogate, too; it's easy and doesn't actually address anything that was said.



> Sorry I have no interest in arguing with a guy who thinks



Genetic fallacy.

And you're just making more excuses to save face.



> someone who can't even properly dodge a shuriken trap,



Sure, let's just completely ignore context.



> or overcome a casual Naruto's speed



Nice use of spotlighting (instead of "overcome Naruto's speed," you've rendered it as "overcome a casual Naruto's speed" in a very transparent effort to downplay).



> or avoid being blitzed by Kabuto



Again, ignoring context. You're also ignoring several of the other instances in which Itachi did, in fact, avoid being blitzed by Kabuto.



> could somehow clone feint the Raikage and hit him with Amaterasu before the third can even react.



Itachi's speed and skill are not even the bare minimum among shinobi who can pull that off.

Like I already pointed out, Dodai sent the 3rd chasing after a rubber ball.

Itachi should very easily be able to clone feint the Raikage and hit him with Amaterasu. For all his esteemed intelligence and skill at reading people, that shouldn't even be in question. All it takes is one basic Ninjutsu; the moment the 3rd loses sight of him, Itachi can pull the switch and the Raikage will have no way of knowing until it's too late.



asstonine said:


> QFT
> 
> Logic means nothing to these wankers.
> Their brains are so small the only way they can see fights played out is in 1 hit kos, of which the uchiha have several.



You're awfully critical of other peoples' grasp on logic for someone who has nothing to offer but personal attacks.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 28, 2013)

Itachi wins mid diff. With knowledge on his abilities Itachi can use MS/clones to sufficiently trap Saindaime in an MS trip, or burn. Not much he can do when completely ignitied by Ama or trapped within Tsuku. Susano (with lightning level reaction feats) puts it more in ITachi's favor thanks to defense, yata, and Totsuka.


----------



## Vice (Nov 28, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Denigrating the entire Itachi fandom is just your own staple defense mechanism that you fall back on out of habit. That awful mindset becomes the lens through which you see me, and that is the reason you're not able to be reasoned with. You put words in my mouth, jump to conclusions about my intent, and throw around old baggage. You affirm your own expectations of Itachi fans and then you nod your head and go "See, I knew it; that's just how they are."
> 
> This has nothing to do with what side one is on. You're just a whiner- you, specifically.



The vast majority of Itachi fans act like trolls. Is this even debatable?



> I accepted some of your premises for the sake of argument (e.g., assuming that the Raikage ARE equally fast, I suggested ways Itachi could deal with that). Yeah, I don't exactly see you doing that anywhere.



Yes, you admitted that the third was both faster and more durable but then you've turned around and asserted that Itachi could get around that just because.



> But, uh, newsflash: *No one is obligated to concede.* I'm not just going to make concessions because you want me to; if I don't agree with something, I'm not going to concede to it (e.g., I _don't_ agree that the Raikage are proven to be equally fast).



No, you just make laughable statements like the Raikage could never beat Itachi no matter what the scenario is and that Itachi could also beat him in mere minutes. 

It's idiotic.



> I acknowledged that the Raikage is faster.



Then stop making arguments where Itachi clone feints and attacks before the Raikage can even react.



> I acknowledged that he is durable enough to withstand everything except Itachi's durability-bypassing hax.



He's also fast enough to AVOID these attacks. His armor is also FAR better than the fourth's.



> I didn't even QUESTION that he has more stamina. I am well aware of his advantages; I simply do not share your unilateral assessment that Itachi is going to be ineffective because of them.



No, like I said you just argue that Itachi can beat this guy who is faster, stronger, more durable and has a higher stamina pool also equipped with lightning armor and fights bijuu with his own hand in minutes with absolutely no chance of being beaten ever.



> You have taken my refusal to accept your extremist position and turned it around into me ignoring his advantages.This is exactly what I'm talking about; your deranged mind creates these problems and you actually believe in them.



lol. So now my belief that Itachi is at a disadvantage and has a chance to *gasp* lose in a fight is an extremist ideal. 

This is what I'm talking about with you fanboys. It's not just in my head, it's here black and white.



> That by itself is laughable; the 3rd reached a draw with the Hachibi in a fight that left them both unconscious and seriously injured.



No, it was stated he beat and sealed him several times whenever he went on a rampage and the only time he was physically damaged was when he was hit with his own piercing attack.



> There's a reason he can't exercise those powers liberally: they are fucking broken as hell. Just one of them could spell death for the Raikage if he takes the hit.



And just one of them could spell death for Itachi if he misses hitting his faster opponent. But no, Itachi has 0% chance of losing. 



> Just because endurance is Itachi's weakness doesn't mean he lacks some very effective strengths.



Sure he does. Just not here.



> No one has ever simply been able to blitz Itachi; there were circumstances that made that possible.



Kabuto did. 



> Could the Raikage blitz Itachi under those same circumstances? Sure.



He could anyway because he's faster. 



> But can he recreate those circumstances himself? No.



Why couldn't he? 



> Itachi won't be deactivating his own Susano'o to activate Izanami here



Keeping Sasanoo active is about the only thing he can do here. And he has to drop Susanoo just to attack with anything sufficient enough to down the Raikage. 

One miss and he's fucked. That's canon.



> (and the 3rd doesn't have a pipeline to jump out of within 3 feet of Itachi, either).



He's faster. He can do it on his own.



> Way to circumvent the argument by bitching about nothing in particular.
> 
> I can reduce your entire argument down to the same "fanwank bullshit" surrogate, too; it's easy and doesn't actually address anything that was said.



Admitting that Raikage's faster and then answering this with Itachi blitzes anyway is fanwank bullshit.




> Genetic fallacy.
> 
> And you're just making more excuses to save face.



Whatever dude, I don't give half a fuck.



> Sure, let's just completely ignore context.



An Itachi fan bitching about someone else ignoring context. Laughable.



> Nice use of spotlighting (instead of "overcome Naruto's speed," you've rendered it as "overcome a casual Naruto's speed" in a very transparent effort to downplay).



If Naruto is merely reacting to Itachi, who is on autopilot, and trying to have a conversation with him and not nearly using the same effort he displayed against the Raikage, what would you call that Niku?



> Again, ignoring context. You're also ignoring several of the other instances in which Itachi did, in fact, avoid being blitzed by Kabuto.



Again, don't bitch about context when it favors Itachi and then completely disregard it when it doesn't. And all Raikage needs is one successful blitz.



> Itachi's speed and skill are not even the bare minimum among shinobi who can pull that off.
> 
> Like I already pointed out, Dodai sent the 3rd chasing after a rubber ball.



Why are you assuming that, if he does get clone feinted, he can't react and attack a second time?

If this is a battle of clone feints, this is a battle of chakra. If this is a battle of chakra, this is a battle of stamina. If this is a battle of stamina, guess who wins this?



> Itachi should very easily be able to clone feint the Raikage and hit him with Amaterasu.



You do realize Amaterasu comes with a charge time, right? It doesn't just happen.

You also realize the Raikage was able to outright tank the FRS, right?



> For all his esteemed intelligence and skill at reading people, that shouldn't even be in question.



Oh geez. Ignoring this shit.



> All it takes is one basic Ninjutsu



One basic ninjutsu to beat the Bijuu-level Raikage. Ugh.



> the moment the 3rd loses sight of him, Itachi can pull the switch and the Raikage will have no way of knowing until it's too late.



Yeah, Amaterasu has a charge time. Raikage can easily react before it's let off.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 28, 2013)

Vice said:


> The vast majority of Itachi fans act like trolls. Is this even debatable?



The vast majority of people act like trolls, at one time or another- you're no exception. But that's immaterial; it's just an excuse you're using.



> Yes, you admitted that the third was both faster and more durable but then you've turned around and asserted that Itachi could get around that just because.



I've asserted that Itachi has a way to negate the speed difference (using a clone feint to take the Raikage from a blind spot eliminates his ability to react). I've also asserted that durability doesn't protect against Jutsu that don't inflict forceful damage (Tsukuyomi is an illusion and Amaterasu burns), which is common knowledge.

The Raikage is not the only one with advantages.



> No, you just make laughable statements like the Raikage could never beat Itachi no matter what the scenario is and that Itachi could also beat him in mere minutes.
> 
> It's idiotic.



I didn't say "no matter what the scenario is"; I said he has zero chance, the operative assumption being "under THIS scenario."

I can think of plenty of scenarios that the 3rd beats Itachi under, but they require the circumstances to be tailored in his favor. The length of the fight is also variable based on that, but the Raikage is generally not going to last long if Itachi has put his mind to hitting him with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu.



> Then stop making arguments where Itachi clone feints and attacks before the Raikage can even react.



That's not a matter of speed; Killer B is capable of reacting to Itachi normally (quite well, I might add), but he was nearly taken by Itachi's initial clone feint after his Goukakyuu (luckily for B, Naruto saw through it and Nagato was also nice enough to warn them both). If Itachi gets the Raikage's back, it's over, and he only needs to break line of sight for a split second to do it.



> He's also fast enough to AVOID these attacks.



Fast enough to evade Amaterasu remains to be seen, but I've already explained how Itachi can get around that regardless.



> His armor is also FAR better than the fourth's.



No one's even contesting this, but there are some things armor just doesn't protect against; mindfucking and being set on fire are among them.



> No, like I said you just argue that Itachi can beat this guy who is faster, stronger, more durable and has a higher stamina pool also equipped with lightning armor and fights bijuu with his own hand in minutes with absolutely no chance of being beaten ever.



Given that Itachi himself has anti-Bijuu capabilities, greater versatility, and a tactical mind on a completely different level from the Raikage's, I'm not seeing what the problem is.

To use an example you're probably more familiar with, this is like Batman vs. Bane, except this Batman has a shield he can activate at will to protect himself at all times and from all directions, while Bane is instantly hobbled if he so much as catches his glance.



> lol. So now my belief that Itachi is at a disadvantage and has a chance to *gasp* lose in a fight is an extremist ideal.



No, your belief that the 3rd Raikage is too fast to be hit by Itachi, too durable to be damaged by Itachi, won't ever look at Itachi's eyes even by mistake, and can't be caught off-guard by Itachi is, in its cohesive entirety, an extreme viewpoint.

You haven't qualified anything you've said by "chance"; you've routinely and unquestioningly denied Itachi's efficacy in all of these regards with no _apparent_ consideration for alternatives.



> This is what I'm talking about with you fanboys. It's not just in my head, it's here black and white.



And here you go back to persecuting a generalized group of others completely out of the blue.

There's only one of me speaking to you right now, Vice. So yeah, those people are all in your head.



> No, it was stated he beat and sealed him several times whenever he went on a rampage



I actually don't remember this, so here's your chance to provide a link and prove something.

Mind you, there ought to be some indication that the Raikage pulled it off by himself; otherwise, we've seen him rely on help while fighting to seal it, and there were casualties he couldn't prevent.



> and the only time he was physically damaged was when he was hit with his own piercing attack.



He was damaged by his own attack because he passed out on it.



> And just one of them could spell death for Itachi if he misses hitting his faster opponent. But no, Itachi has 0% chance of losing.



Susano'o mitigates that risk. If a clone feint has been executed successfully, then there is no risk.



> Sure he does. Just not here.



You're saying Itachi normally lacks some effective strengths? That's completely indefensible.



> Kabuto did.



"[T]here were circumstances that made that possible."



> He could anyway because he's faster.



Prove it.



> Why couldn't he?



1. Itachi's has no reason to try activating Izanami on him.

2. The 3rd can't break Tsukuyomi to compromise Itachi's reaction time.

3. The 3rd has no way to ambush Itachi at close-range here.

4. Kakashi doesn't have a Kage Bunshin grappling with Itachi to hold him in place.



> Keeping Sasanoo active is about the only thing he can do here. And he has to drop Susanoo just to attack with anything sufficient enough to down the Raikage.



Wut. See, I don't agree with this; he should be able to execute Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi from inside Susano'o, like Sasuke did when he fought Danzou.

Even if I grant you this for the sake of argument (I'm so generous), the 3rd is not so fast that Itachi can't evade him physically. KCM Naruto at 1/13th power didn't have such trouble.



> One miss and he's fucked. That's canon.



Something that isn't even in the source material can't be canon. 



> He's faster. He can do it on his own.



Prove it.



> Admitting that Raikage's faster and then answering this with Itachi blitzes anyway is fanwank bullshit.



Anyone can blitz the Raikage if he doesn't see them coming.



> Whatever dude, I don't give half a fuck.



Yes, you've made that abundantly clear. 



> An Itachi fan bitching about someone else ignoring context. Laughable.



There you go deflecting criticism again.

It's always someone else's fault. And it's not just me, Nikushimi- it has to be "those dang Itachi fans. With their big lips. Always takin' mah jerbs."



> If Naruto is merely reacting to Itachi, who is on autopilot, and trying to have a conversation with him and not nearly using the same effort he displayed against the Raikage, what would you call that Niku?



Selective attention. 

It just looks like Itachi and Naruto are fighting each other while talking; the only visible difference in effort is Naruto's lack of chakra arms and FRS, which can easily be followed up with the obvious indication that Itachi wasn't using MS, either. What's relevant is that their physical abilities were pretty even, which gives us a very good picture of the speed difference between Itachi and the 3rd Raikage (whom Naruto fought).



> Again, don't bitch about context when it favors Itachi and then completely disregard it when it doesn't.



What context am I ignoring?



> And all Raikage needs is one successful blitz.



Which Itachi's evasive skills and Susano'o render impossible.



> Why are you assuming that, if he does get clone feinted, he can't react and attack a second time?



Because people generally can't react to what they don't see coming.



> If this is a battle of clone feints, this is a battle of chakra. If this is a battle of chakra, this is a battle of stamina. If this is a battle of stamina, guess who wins this?



The obvious fatal flaw in this argument is the assumption that all chakra expenditure is materially equivalent, which is untrue; all the chakra the 3rd could spend breaking fodder shinobi in half for three days straight doesn't amount to the chakra Itachi could spend in a nanosecond breaking his mind with Tsukuyomi.



> You do realize Amaterasu comes with a charge time, right? It doesn't just happen.



It happens fast enough to shoot down Kabuto's webs in mid-air or hit Danzou mid-jump. There is a brief "charge" period, but the only visual cue is blood running from the eye, which the Raikage is supposed to avoid looking at if he doesn't want to eat Tsukuyomi.



> You also realize the Raikage was able to outright tank the FRS, right?


 
What's your point?



> Oh geez. Ignoring this shit.



Denying that Itachi is intelligent or even apparently more-so than the Raikage defies what has been routinely depicted in the source material and in any other official material.



> One basic ninjutsu to beat the Bijuu-level Raikage. Ugh.



The basic Ninjutsu only serves to occlude his visual lock on Itachi for the moment necessary to swap out with a clone.



> Yeah, Amaterasu has a charge time. Raikage can easily react before it's let off.



Amaterasu's charge time is not that significant and he has no safe way of detecting it in the first place.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 28, 2013)

Vice said:


> You do realize Amaterasu comes with a charge time, right? It doesn't just happen.
> 
> You also realize the Raikage was able to outright tank the FRS, right?





Tobirama stated that they were brought at "almost" their full power

Tobirama stated that they were brought at "almost" their full power


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 28, 2013)

Bloodlusted Itachi beats the 3rd. Ama can end this at any moment. Susano provides defense against his attacks, totsuk seals him, and Tsukuyomi can be used when Sandaime gets close to him, although it'll be a mid - high diff fight

Lol Vice's definition of trolling:
-Countering his bullshit claims with logic and manga evidence which he vehemently refuses to acknowledge.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Nov 28, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The 3rd Raikage is not shrugging off a Tsukuyomi; his physical durability and stamina won't mitigate the trauma induced by a Genjutsu.



Unless he's invincible in his mind too Good Sir.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 28, 2013)

Itachi can control everything in Tsukuyomi, space and time so logically he can probably reduce the Sandaime's durability to zero and torture him with Ei dying while stabbing him with Nukite-level swords. Remember Itachi has never gone all out in Tsukiyomi, Kakashi claimed Itachi held back considerably.

*Viz*
Kakashi: (Thinking) Unh... I see... Three days in that realm and less than a moment passed in this one... Why not kill me? If he wanted to he could...

If Kakashi with genjutsu protection gets put in a coma, despite Sandaime's extreme resilience I have my doubt he'll be able to fight after taking a full bloodlusted-Tsukiyomi. And I don't think Sandaime has shown speed comparable to his son; he's close to V1 Ei perhaps but no where near V2 Ei and you need that level of speed to dodge Amaterasu. Plus Itachi has reflexes on par to EMS Sauce (reacted to Muki Tensei first) and speed comparable so he can comfortably deal with V1 Ei speed which Sandaime should be at best equal to, by feats probably a bit slower.


----------



## Vice (Nov 28, 2013)

This is infinitely stupid. All this boils down to is Raikage's faster but Itachi still blitzes just because. 

I must be out of my mind to keep arguing with a bunch of Itachi-tards who think Itachi easily beats a guy in seconds who is his superior in speed, durability and stamina and acts like a guy who can dodge FRS can't overcome a fucking clone feint. 

Like someone said before, when Itachi's involved, it always ends up just a popularity contest.


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 28, 2013)

Who the fuck said Itachi blitzes? 

How strong as clone feint been in the manga? Kakashi threatened Deva with it, Naruto soloed Kakuzu with it, do I need to go on?

Tsukuyomi takes seconds yes, if Raikage looks in his eyes he is done. It doesn't have to be in the first few seconds, but there is a high possibilty it happens in this fight.

Vice you are a grand Itachi hater, like I really think you need to see a psychiartrist due to a fictional character. You never post objective reason just spout your bullshit. Take that shit to the fairytail section please cause you are getting quite annoying.


----------



## Sans (Nov 28, 2013)

Trying to say this as kindly as possible, your seemingly endless (and literal) hatred for a fictional character and people who like this fictional character is utterly perplexing.

I'm not saying you need to like Itachi, or stop disliking him, or stop arguing against him. But putting this much effort, time and vitriol into an online forum is silly.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Nov 28, 2013)

Vice said:


> This is infinitely stupid. All this boils down to is Raikage's faster but Itachi still blitzes just because.
> 
> I must be out of my mind to keep arguing with a bunch of Itachi-tards who think Itachi easily beats a guy in seconds who is his superior in speed, durability and stamina and acts like a guy who can dodge FRS can't overcome a fucking clone feint.
> 
> Like someone said before, when Itachi's involved, it always ends up just a popularity contest.



A had the same exact advantages over Sasuke and yet they were about to stalemate and there's no guarantee that Sasuke would have died from his kick either so it could have even gone in his favor. In this fight, the speed difference is minimal at best in comparison to A vs Sasuke. The other major difference is the fact that Itachi has full access to MS powers unlike Sasuke who was still progressing at the time. 

Durability advantage is pretty much null if he takes a body shot from Amaterasu or takes Tsukuyomi which does mental damage. 

There's definitely no blitzing here on either side. But Itachi can easily time his attacks according to the Raikage's attacks and movements. That's not something Naruto had access to until Sage Mode. And in Sage Mode, he was easily able to dodge and counter. So would you say that Naruto's Sage Rasengan attack was faster than his Rasen-Shuriken assault? 

IMO KM Naruto's assault was faster, but because SM Naruto was able to time his attack correctly, it had much better chances of landing (I am talking about his first few attacks before he blitzed him). Even VOTE Sasuke could do something as simple as that. Itachi using Amaterasu or Susano'o with that precise timing is simply too much for the Third Raikage.

Now, is there anything in the above that sounds like a popularity ranking? If so, why?


----------



## Dr. White (Nov 28, 2013)

Vice said:


> You can shut the fuck up, thanks.



Oh gosh Vice you are sooooo intimidating  

Typical Vice Post 

You know Vice if you need help...I am a doctor.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 29, 2013)

Vice said:


> This is infinitely stupid. All this boils down to is Raikage's faster but Itachi still blitzes just because.



No, that's all _you've_ boiled it down to.



> I must be out of my mind to keep arguing with a bunch of Itachi-tards



Again, you fall back to scapegoating a generalized other.

You act like such an ass to us just because we like Itachi, provoke us with insults, and call us laughable, and then you go and flip your shit when we tell you off.

"THOSE DANG ITACHI FANS! I TOLDJA THEY WAS VIOLENT! I DUN TOLDJA!"

Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? You're like a bad joke that keeps getting worse.



> who think Itachi easily beats a guy in seconds who is his superior in speed, durability and stamina



I said it would take a couple of minutes.



> and acts like a guy who can dodge FRS can't overcome a fucking clone feint.



What does dodging FRS have to do with being able to deal with clone feints? Wait, I'll answer that for you: Nothing.

Itachi can dodge FRS himself, anyway.



> Like someone said before, when Itachi's involved, it always ends up just a popularity contest.



No, Vice; you said that- you said that, and now you're quoting yourself. 

But I guess if no one else is willing to corroborate your prejudice, at least the voices in your head are on your side. For now.



Dr. White said:


> Who the fuck said Itachi blitzes?



No one. Absolutely no one.

Well, except for him, I guess.



> Vice you are a grand Itachi hater,



He is actually quite run-of-the-mill.



Vice said:


> You can shut the fuck up, thanks.



No, Vice. It looks like everyone's pretty unanimously sick of putting up with your bullshit.

So,


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 29, 2013)

Cause like me Nikushimi is heavily biased when Itachi is involved. 

he completely and regularly ignores manga fact and dismisses such as just bullshit interpretation or just ignore them.


I haven't seen Nikushimi give a reasonable explanation on why Itachi would win.


Ive done posted FRS having no effect on the Raikage(Edo didn't have time to start regen process) and his speed, and his reactions.

Nothing Itachi has can get through raiton armor other than Tsukuyomi. ANd with genjutsu knowledge he'll know to avoid eye contact.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Cause like me Nikushimi is heavily biased when Itachi is involved.


You as well, but on the other end of the scale. 



> he completely and regularly ignores manga fact and dismisses such as just bullshit interpretation or just ignore them.



Too ironic to be true.



> I haven't seen Nikushimi give a reasonable explanation on why Itachi would win.


Yes because your explanations which always end with Itachi losing to someone "9/10 with low-mid diff" are very reasonable.




> Ive done posted FRS having no effect on the Raikage(Edo didn't have time to start regen process) and his speed, and his reactions.


FRS had no effect on Cerebrus as well. And Amaterasu killed him within seconds.



> Nothing Itachi has can get through raiton armor other than Tsukuyomi. ANd with genjutsu knowledge he'll know to avoid eye contact.


He gets hit by Amaterasu if he avoids eye contact.
Well, he actually gets hit eitherway since he isn't as fast as A in the first place.


----------



## Vice (Nov 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> No, that's all _you've_ boiled it down to.



That's all it is. 



> Again, you fall back to scapegoating a generalized other.
> 
> You act like such an ass to us just because we like Itachi, provoke us with insults, and call us laughable, and then you go and flip your shit when we tell you off.
> 
> ...



No, when you sit here and troll and say that Itachi beats a fucking kage with no difficulty in seconds, I call it fanwank bullshit because that's what it is.

If you don't like being called a troll, then don't act like one.



> I said it would take a couple of minutes.



And I call you a troll because this is a troll response.



> What does dodging FRS have to do with being able to deal with clone feints? Wait, I'll answer that for you: Nothing.



Gee, I don't know. What does a speed feat have to do with dealing with clone feints?



> Itachi can dodge FRS himself, anyway.



Yeah? Prove it.



> No, Vice; you said that- you said that, and now you're quoting yourself.
> 
> But I guess if no one else is willing to corroborate your prejudice, at least the voices in your head are on your side. For now.



No, that's reality. Biggest trolls on this site are Itachi fans who run around spouting bullshit like "Itachi solos" and "genjutsu gg" everywhere they go acting like it's original and funny when in reality it's just horse shit.

And plenty of people feel this way. Just because the little Itachi suck-off brigade is acting like your cheerleaders here doesn't mean people aren't sick of this bullshit.



> No one. Absolutely no one.
> 
> Well, except for him, I guess.



What else can I say when you constantly admit that the Raikage is faster yet claim that Itachi can clone feint and attack before he can react anyway?

It's not like I'm making this bullshit up, it's what you're saying. "Raikage's faster, but Itachi blitzes anyway just because."



> He is actually quite run-of-the-mill.



Oh lord. Please fuck off, thanks.



> No, Vice. It looks like everyone's pretty unanimously sick of putting up with your bullshit.
> 
> So,



And the whole forum is sick of you moppets fellating this overrated, shitty, sorry excuse of a piece of shit mary sue every chance you get.


----------



## Jagger (Nov 29, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Tsukyomi? Genjutsu? The dude avoids eye contact and blitzes before Itachi puts a finger up.


Based on what? Itachi is a skilled ninja that relies on his skills with Kage Bunshin, kunais, feints and genjutsu instead of brute force like the Third Raikage.

Landing a genjutsu shouldn't even be hard with someone that relies solely on CQC.


----------



## Jagger (Nov 29, 2013)

Vice, you can be a logical debater, but you need to let go some of that irrational hatred towards a fictional character. The way you bash him and destroy his character is kind of dumb.

I've seen people that Itachi is their last character and they even give him some praise.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 29, 2013)

Vice said:


> No, when you sit here and troll and say that Itachi beats a fucking kage with no difficulty in seconds, I call it fanwank bullshit because that's what it is.
> 
> If you don't like being called a troll, then don't act like one.



Itachi beat Orochimaru with 0 difficulty in seconds, who was a Hokage candiate @ the time.

And no one in the thread claimed that it would be 0 difficulty defeat within seconds.

But it won't be _that_ difficult either. Raikage isn't well suited to fight Itachi, because Itachi has the perfect skillset to bypass his durability which alone would give alot of other strong shinobi a run for their money.

This is more of a match up thing, not just about Itachi being fuckloads stronger than him(there is also that too ).


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## Rain (Nov 29, 2013)

Susano'o tanks everything. Tsukuyomi ends the game.

Stop putting massively inferior characters against top-tiers.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 29, 2013)

Cept Itachi was _never a fucking Top Tier_ Rain. And an 'inferior' character? Someone who can equal the second strongest Biju in combat and fight an army of 10,000 for three days and could only be hurt by his own techniques?

Top tiers in this manga are BM Naruto, Hashirama, Madara, Sasuke, and Obito.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 29, 2013)

I believe these 4 are top tier shinobi SSM12


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## ueharakk (Nov 29, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> I believe these 4 are top tier shinobi SSM12



Edo itachi is on a totally different level than living itachi considering he has an unkillable body that experiences zero side affects from MS usage, infinite chakra, no sickness and starts off with fresh eyes.

And sure at that time they were top tier shinobi, that cutoff has radically shifted over the course of 100 chapters.

So no, living itachi wasn't a top tier back then and most definitely isn't a top tier now.  He was a top tier up until the war arc started.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 29, 2013)

I don't disagree with you Ueharakk, and I wasn't using top tier in the context of the current fairy-tale people about.

I will say though, Itachi was declared a top tier when all the non-hokage kage had already been shown. 

So it applies here, to the Sandaime Raikage.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 29, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Cept Itachi was _never a fucking Top Tier_ Rain. And an 'inferior' character? Someone who can equal the second strongest Biju in combat and fight an army of 10,000 for three days and could only be hurt by his own techniques?
> 
> Top tiers in this manga are BM Naruto, Hashirama, Madara, Sasuke, and Obito.



The "Top Tier" isn't constant.

In part 1, Oro, Jiraiya, Hiruzen were also considered Top Tier.

Ad yeah, currently, Top tiers are Hashirama, Madara, Juubito, BM Naruto and perhaps EMS Sasuke because the bar moved up too damn high in the recent 40 - 50 chapters.

That doesn't mean Itachi wasn't top tier during the times he was actively contributing to the plot progression, by the end of part 1, by the mid way of part 2 and during the War Arc.

And yes, in relative to Raikage and others in that tier, I'd say that Itachi would easily be considered Top Tier.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 29, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't disagree with you Ueharakk, and I wasn't using top tier in the context of the current fairy-tale people about.
> 
> I will say though, Itachi was declared a top tier when all the non-hokage kage had already been shown.
> 
> So it applies here, to the Sandaime Raikage.


Itachi was declared 'Top Tier' before the Sandaime Raikage and Nidaime Mizukage's powers were shown.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Nov 29, 2013)

I would say that Itachi has been portrayed as superior to the Sandaime Raikage and Nidaime Mizukage, on top of generally having better feats.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 29, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I would say that Itachi has been portrayed as superior to the Sandaime Raikage and Nidaime Mizukage, on top of generally having better feats.


Only in his Edo Tensei form, which Itachi doesn't have the weaknesses he has in life. Sandaime Raikage fought equaled Gyuki's full power and the Nidaime Mizukage and Mu killed each other-the latter could vaporize entire armies with Jinton. Itachi in life, due to the hampering weaknesses of his stamina, was on a far lower level.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Nov 29, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only in his Edo Tensei form, which Itachi doesn't have the weaknesses he has in life. Sandaime Raikage fought equaled Gyuki's full power and the Nidaime Mizukage and Mu killed each other-the latter could vaporize entire armies with Jinton. Itachi in life, due to the hampering weaknesses of his stamina, was on a far lower level.



The Sandaime Raikage was able to equal the Hachibi due to his durability bypassing anything it could do. Itachi's Totsuka and Amaterasu effectively bypass conventional durability, so I don't think he would have the same issue as the Hachibi here.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 29, 2013)

His edo tensei form only allows him to do more frequently what he already can do in the first place, it doesn't, for instance, give him new techniques.


Given he can manage 5 mangekyou and a karasu bushin , and that amount is already greater than the amount necessary to incapacitate the sandaime raikage, having access to surplus "extra" shots isn't something that would change the outcome.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 29, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Edo itachi is on a totally different level than living itachi considering he has an unkillable body that experiences zero side affects from MS usage, infinite chakra, no sickness and starts off with fresh eyes.



Madara says differently, and Madara was the Edo Kabuto spent a specific amount of time on improving. Edo Itachi is weaker then living Itachi just like Edo Raikage is weaker than living Raikage.​


ueharakk said:


> So no, living itachi wasn't a top tier back then and most definitely isn't a top tier now.  He was a top tier up until the war arc started.



When the god of shinobi says you put him to shame and the other god of shinobi says you were as wise as him at age 7, then you're almost certainly going to be a top tier, no?​


----------



## Trojan (Nov 29, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi was declared 'Top Tier' before the Sandaime Raikage and Nidaime Mizukage's powers were shown.



I thought those side words are from the editors or the magazine itself, and not from kishi.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 29, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Madara says differently, and Madara was the Edo Kabuto spent a specific amount of time on improving. Edo Itachi is weaker then living Itachi just like Edo Raikage is weaker than living Raikage.​



from what I understood from what Takl said, it seems to me madara was not fighting seriously 
and that's about it.


I might understood it wrong though.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 29, 2013)

Eh, we'll find out next chapter. 

"This body is what it takes! (/I couldn't do without this body!)"

Makes it seem like Edo bodies are disadvantageous.



Elia said:


> I thought those side words are from the editors or the magazine itself, and not from kishi.



That's is correct. The author doesn't write them & they're not canon.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 29, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Madara says differently, and Madara was the Edo Kabuto spent a specific amount of time on improving. Edo Itachi is weaker then living Itachi just like Edo Raikage is weaker than living Raikage.​


Nope, madara is the single and only case of a shinobi being weaker than his living counterpart as an edo, and we've yet to even get an explanation for why madara is weaker and if that would apply to itachi.

*Other than that, every edo tensei has been revived at full power, and nothing has suggested otherwise.*



Strategoob said:


> When the god of shinobi says you put him to shame and the other god of shinobi says you were as wise as him at age 7, then you're almost certainly going to be a top tier, no?​


We are talking about top tier in the context of battle ability.  Unless you believe that Hashirama meant he'd lose to Itachi in a fight, then it has nothing to do with how he stacks up to Hashirama in that respect.  
If you want to talk about who embodies the ideals of 'being a shinobi' the most or 'who's got the best reasoning' then sure we can talk.  Else, taking hashirama's statement to mean Itachi is above him is basically what itachi fans do to hype him to no limits: take statements about him out of context.



Lawrence777 said:


> His edo tensei form only allows him to do more frequently what he already can do in the first place, it doesn't, for instance, give him new techniques.
> 
> Given he can manage 5 mangekyou and a karasu bushin , and that amount is already greater than the amount necessary to incapacitate the sandaime raikage, having access to surplus "extra" shots isn't something that would change the outcome.


His edo form doesn't only do that, it gives him:
- no negative side affects of the MS jutsus
- negating his sickness 
- letting him start the fight with fresh eyes,
- unlimited chakra so he doesn't have to be conservative of his MS usage

Those right there are the four major weakenesses or factors that made itachi much weaker as a living person.  It's basically like letting SM Naruto fuse with ma and pa: it eliminates huge weaknesses like running out of SM and a clone limit. 

I also don't see how he'd incapacitate the raikage with just 5 MS jutsus especially if he's in the shape where he fought hebi sasuke.  Tsukuyomi isn't landing, amaterasu probably lands, but that's going to take a while to incapacitate sandaime.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 29, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> The Sandaime Raikage was able to equal the Hachibi due to his durability bypassing anything it could do. Itachi's Totsuka and Amaterasu effectively bypass conventional durability, so I don't think he would have the same issue as the Hachibi here.


Totsuka has no piercing feats Atlantic Storm. Nothing says it 'bypasses conventional durability'. It is in essence, as sharp as a Susano'o sword from feats. And Amaterasu doesn't bypass conventional durability-it could barely burn through A's weaker Raiton no Yoroi while the Sandaime's has a superior version.

And Totsuka can't seal Biju, Itachi doesn't have enough chakra for it. And Biju have shown counters to Amaterasu.


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## ueharakk (Nov 29, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> Vice acting like Itachi ran a train on his mom or something
> 
> Itachi is just scrap of paper man chill



 I think I might have found Asstonine's alter-ego.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 29, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> what you wrote doesn't even make sense



ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 29, 2013)

ueharakk, stop writing fanfiction
wank wank

 **


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 29, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> i wasn't aware that wanking Itachi was equivalent to being asstoelevens alter ego(wasn't the guy hell bent on flaming Itachi fans? you know like the polar opposite of me?)
> 
> the more you know



I'm sorry, i got my definitions mixed up.  I was thinking more along the lines of 'evil twin' kind of thing.


----------



## IchLiebe (Nov 29, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You as well, but on the other end of the scale.


Of course, and I pride myself on not being delusional.





> Too ironic to be true.


Not really, people just horribly misinterpret the manga.





> Yes because your explanations which always end with Itachi losing to someone "9/10 with low-mid diff" are very reasonable.


Not my fault he is a shitty ninja compared to the top tiers. I can reasonably explain how Darui, Mei, Sasuke, Kakashi, Gai, Bee, Raikage, Obito, Nagato, Pain, Konan, Muu, Onoki, Tobirama, Orochimaru, Kabuto, Tayuya(alone), and plenty of others that defeat Itachi rather easily. Of course given stipulations(on these, I gave manga knowledge and IC with 50m distance on a field with no restrictions. Besides Konans paper ocean.)





> FRS had no effect on Cerebrus as well. And Amaterasu killed him within seconds.


Link removed That was Odama Rasengan. Actually Amaterasu should've fucked them over. Given the mechanics of Amaterasu and that it burns very slowly and Cerebrus splitting ability, Cerebrus would just constantly multiple with the flames eventually splitting off to where it doesn't cause as much damage. Figuratively we should end up with atleast 200 Cerebrus'. But Kishi is lazy some times and forgets the mechanics. Whereas FRS doesn't deal lethal damage but cuts chakra connections which should stop Cerebrus from splitting if anything would.





> He gets hit by Amaterasu if he avoids eye contact.
> Well, he actually gets hit eitherway since he isn't as fast as A in the first place.


He can feel the pressure build up. Hebi Sasuke was able to dodge 2 amaterasu shots before being hit. And Amaterasu burns to slow to even get through the armor. Godkage can just keep pumping out more chakra constantly to keep Amaterasu off his skin. Totsuka ain't getting through and I don't see how Tsukuyomi is a factor but its the only things that drops the raikage effectively, but then Itachi is going to be in such a bad condition by then I don't know if he can recover quick enough to finish the Godkage off before he gets up.

And I feel like the Godkage will just laugh off 3 days of torture.


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## Baroxio (Nov 29, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> ueharakk, stop writing fanfiction
> wank wank
> 
> **


It was you all along, wasn't it? 

The wanking of Itachi, the thread about who Asstonie really was, all to throw us off from the truth. 

Strategoob = Asstonie


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## Nikushimi (Nov 29, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Cept Itachi was _never a fucking Top Tier_ Rain.



Itachi was top tier up until Madara was introduced. Along with Nagato, Minato, Obito, Naruto, and Sasuke.



> And an 'inferior' character? Someone who can equal the second strongest Biju in combat and fight an army of 10,000 for three days and could only be hurt by his own techniques?



Itachi can fight Bijuu, he can die of exhaustion fighting 10,000 fodder (even if not for 3 days), and there is very little that can hurt him besides his own Jutsu.



> Top tiers in this manga are BM Naruto, Hashirama, Madara, Sasuke, and Obito.



Doesn't change the fact that Itachi is stronger than the Raikage- both of them.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi was declared 'Top Tier' before the Sandaime Raikage and Nidaime Mizukage's powers were shown.



Mizukage: Lololol I'mma troll you with my Genjutsu!

Itachi: *blitzes before he can even summon the clam*

Mizukage: *dies*


Itachi stomps the 2nd Mizukage like he was a child. Get out of here.

The 3rd Raikage doesn't do much better.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only in his Edo Tensei form, which Itachi doesn't have the weaknesses he has in life. Sandaime Raikage fought equaled Gyuki's full power and the Nidaime Mizukage and Mu killed each other-the latter could vaporize entire armies with Jinton.



Itachi can vaporize entire armies with Amaterasu. What's your point?

Itachi is stronger than three of them, alive or Edo'd.



> Itachi in life, due to the hampering weaknesses of his stamina, was on a far lower level.



Itachi, alive and sick, was on a higher level than any of those Kage in their immortal and tireless Edo Tensei forms.

Muu gets Sharingan-raped. Again. The 3rd falls to a straight-up MS attack or one following a clone feint. The Mizukage gets beaten down before he can raise a finger to fight back. Gaara's Dad...hell, even you admitted he loses a long time ago.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Totsuka has no piercing feats Atlantic Storm. Nothing says it 'bypasses conventional durability'. It is in essence, as sharp as a Susano'o sword from feats.



Cutting apart the Yamata no Jutsu and piercing Orochimaru are piercing feats, whether you personally find them impressive or not.

I don't agree that the sword bypasses durability, but I'm not going to turn a blind eye when you say stuff like this, either.



> And Amaterasu doesn't bypass conventional durability-



Amaterasu is a flame that produces heat, which- in general -ignores durability. If it consumes oxygen like normal flames, the Raikage also runs the risk of asphyxiating.



> it could *barely* burn through A's weaker Raiton no Yoroi while the Sandaime's has a superior version.



The adverb "barely" is just more of the usual baseless spotlighting you use to downplay Itachi. No, Amaterasu was burning through A's Raiton armor and his body, and the Raikage saw fit to cut his own arm off rather than allow it to spread.



> And Totsuka can't seal Biju, Itachi doesn't have enough chakra for it.



This is a negative claim. Not only are you defying the burden of proof, but you're making a statement that isn't verifiable.

Your claim should be "The Bijuu have more chakra than Itachi can seal," which then obligates you to provide proof of this. Which I know you can't do because there is no proof.

Your claim is also predicated on the assumption that the Totsuka requires Itachi's chakra to seal, which has not been established in the first place. I'll go the additional step of pointing out that Itachi was almost completely out of chakra when he sealed Orochimaru and the Yamata no Jutsu, which was the size of a Bijuu.



> And Biju have shown counters to Amaterasu.



Only one of the original nine Bijuu has even faced Amaterasu, and it was physically destroyed.



Miyamoto Musashi said:


> why is Nikushimi never voted for member of the month?
> 
> this was a massacre. jesus



Vice kinda did it to himself.

Vice for MotM. 



IchLiebe said:


> Cause like me Nikushimi is heavily biased when Itachi is involved.
> 
> he completely and regularly ignores manga fact and dismisses such as just bullshit interpretation or just ignore them.
> 
> ...



IchLiebe for MotM. 



Vice said:


> That's all it is.



No, it isn't; no one has said Itachi simply blitzes- that outcome has either been qualified with the use of a diversion (e.g., Goukakyuu and clone feint) or not at all. Because you refuse to look at anything but the outcome, you aren't appreciating what the distinct means of reaching it imply.



> No, when you sit here and troll and say that Itachi beats a fucking kage with no difficulty in seconds, I call it fanwank bullshit because that's what it is.



I didn't say "no difficulty" or "in seconds."

The difficulty level would be moderate and the time the match would take would probably be a few minutes, taking CIS into account.



> If you don't like being called a troll, then don't act like one.



I reserve the right to joke around and provoke stupid people whenever I want. 



> And I call you a troll because this is a troll response.



Disagreeing with you is not tantamount to trolling. But go ahead and keep stroking that ego.



> Gee, I don't know. What does a speed feat have to do with dealing with clone feints?



Nothing- that's the point.



> Yeah? Prove it.



Pain Tendou dodged FRS. Kakashi was fast enough to exchange blows with Pain Tendou and even corner him against a Doton wall.

Chiyo and Kimimaro also seem to have dodged 1/13 power KCM Naruto's FRS, since neither of them were sealed by the time Itachi released Edo Tensei.

Chiyo's speed is 4. Kimimaro's speed is 4.5. Kakashi's speed, at least according to the last databook, was 4.5.

Itachi's speed is 5.

If all these shinobi who are slower than Itachi can dodge FRS, then Itachi should be able to dodge FRS.

Also, even though there's no way to really compare them by anything else, I feel like I should point out that Choujurou is faster than 1/13 power KCM Naruto's FRS, given how he could swing his sword many times the distance FRS traveled in the same amount of time.

Come on.



> No, that's reality.



"Because I say so!" right? 



> Biggest trolls on this site are Itachi fans who run around spouting bullshit like "Itachi solos" and "genjutsu gg" everywhere they go acting like it's original and funny when in reality it's just horse shit.



This isn't really about them, though.

This is about you and what a giant dingus you're acting like in some ill-conceived attempt to make a point.



> And plenty of people feel this way. Just because the little Itachi suck-off brigade is acting like your cheerleaders here doesn't mean people aren't sick of this bullshit.



"People" meaning you, IchLiebe, SSM12, and that asstomouth guy. 



> What else can I say when you constantly admit that the Raikage is faster yet claim that Itachi can clone feint and attack before he can react anyway?



You can start by admitting that that is indeed an effective counter and then either concede the Raikage's defeat or provide evidence showing that he has a way to counter this sleight-of-hand.

Although I will warn you in advance that my response to that would be:

Choujurou is faster than 1/13 power KCM Naruto's FRS

Choujurou is faster than 1/13 power KCM Naruto's FRS

Choujurou is faster than 1/13 power KCM Naruto's FRS

Unless you really think Dodai is that much faster than Itachi, I think we can call this a wrap.



> It's not like I'm making this bullshit up, it's what you're saying. "Raikage's faster, but Itachi blitzes anyway just because."



You said that, not me. So yes, you are making this up.



> Oh lord. Please fuck off, thanks.



Your delusions of adequacy are not my fault. 



> And the whole forum is sick of you moppets fellating this overrated, shitty, sorry excuse of a piece of shit mary sue every chance you get.





Yes, it's everyone's fault but yours why you keep going off-topic just to denigrate others.

Keep making excuses, Vice.


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## Akitō (Nov 29, 2013)

Totsuka's Sword is all that's really required here. Amaterasu could do it too. And so could Tsukuyomi. But I'd imagine that summoning Susano'o and immediately going for the seal would require less effort.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 29, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Not my fault he is a shitty ninja compared to the top tiers. I can reasonably explain how* Darui,* Mei, Sasuke, Kakashi, Gai, Bee, Raikage, Obito, Nagato, Pain, Konan, Muu, Onoki, Tobirama, Orochimaru, Kabuto, *Tayuya(alone*), and plenty of others that *defeat Itachi rather easily*. Of course given stipulations(on these, I gave manga knowledge and IC with 50m distance on a field with no restrictions. Besides Konans paper ocean.)








> this That was Odama Rasengan.


It was a FRS.

Odaama rasengan doesn't explode like a wind sphere nor creates an explosion as big as that.





> Actually Amaterasu should've fucked them over. Given the mechanics of Amaterasu and that it burns very slowly and Cerebrus splitting ability, Cerebrus would just constantly multiple with the flames eventually splitting off to where it doesn't cause as much damage. Figuratively we should end up with atleast 200 Cerebrus'. But Kishi is lazy some times and forgets the mechanics. Whereas FRS doesn't deal lethal damage but cuts chakra connections which should stop Cerebrus from splitting if anything would.


So manga shows FRS failing and Amaterasu succeeding but you believe Amaterasu would fail and FRS would succeed.

Ok, thats all I need to hear. 




> He can feel the pressure build up.


He is not a sensor.



> Hebi Sasuke was able to dodge 2 amaterasu shots before being hit.


He didn't dodge 2 shots.
He attempted to dodge 1 and got hit after a very short while, despite preempting it.




> And Amaterasu burns to slow to even get through the armor. Godkage can just keep pumping out more chakra constantly to
> keep Amaterasu off his skin.


Sure  

For 7 days straight ? 



> Totsuka ain't getting through


Even if it isn't, it is going to harm him nontheless.




> and I don't see how Tsukuyomi is a factor but its the only things that drops the raikage effectively, but then Itachi is going to be in such a bad condition by then I don't know if he can recover quick enough to finish the Godkage off before he gets up.


Raikage isn't getting up, so it is irrelevant what condition Itachi will be in. 



> And I feel like the Godkage will just laugh off 3 days of torture.


You feel wrong then.

A fell to a regular genjutsu from Madara, there is no evidence that his dad has more willpower, nor that would effect the outcome even if he did.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 29, 2013)

Yeah, there is no reasonable explanation for how Darui, Tayuya, Mei, or Konan defeat Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Nov 29, 2013)

Edo Itachi is only a tier above living Itachi. Edo Itachi's benefits only come into play when considering long term effects of a fight. Sick Itachi used 2X as much chakra as Edo Itachi did in the nagato battle. Itachi didn't even spam in that battle, he showed he uses his intellect to win fights, besting Bee and Naruto despite the latter having full knowledge on Pain's technique, and Itachi having next to none.

He also canonically beat out Hebi Sasuke in the chakra department (this is with Oro upgrades) while terminally ill. Just as Edo Kimmimaro did nothing short of what his living self could do the same applies to Itachi. The only time you could say there is a sure difference is after the living versions chakra would have been gone.

In short Edo Itachi's feats in individual battles can be granted to his living self, it is when you take into account them concurently that the problem comes in (itachi wouldn't have been able to fight in the nagato, and Kabuto battle while alive)

Also @ SSM12 - Totsuka does have piercing feats. Snakes are extremely durable. No named fodder snake protected Sasuke from c1, Manda survived C0, and snakes have so much muscles that even regular sized IRL anaconda's can tank multiple hits from bladed weapons. Yamata no Oroichi is the 2nd biggest.strongest snake summon only behind Manda 2.0, and Totsuka cleaved through the heads, and pierced through its body like butter.


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