# A Vs Tobirama



## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

Location: Minato Vs A & B
knowledge: Full for A, none for Tobirama. (Because A was born after him)
Mindset: IC. 
Distance: The same as here. (second to last panel)

Conditions: 
- A has both arms.
- Tobirama can use ET. However, he needs to catch some random alive people to sacrifice them for the jutsu. 

Who wins? U_U


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## Mercurial (Dec 22, 2014)

Tobirama totally shits on him. With Hiraishin he dodges and tags him like Minato, then he watches Ei having fun with Gojo Kibakufuda that he warped on him.

Ei is also "just one of the Gokage", Tobirama is portrayed as a far superior shinobi.


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## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

> =Raikiri19;52520209]Tobirama totally shits on him. With Hiraishin he dodges and tags him like Minato,


Tobirama =/= Minato. Can you perhaps show us when he used all those Kunais like Minato? 
Not to mention Tobirama's FTG is not on the same level as Minato's to begin with. I don't know why are some people still under that illusion. lol



> ?!!?? (Volume 53, Chapter 503)
> Displaying astonishing skillfulness with ?Hiraishin no jutsu?!!
> Overwhelming the Masked Man that is the mastermind behind the Kyuubi Incident!!
> 
> ...





> 飛雷神互瞬回しの術 Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu/
> 
> 
> Ninjutsu
> ...





> p. 270
> Konoha
> Hundred Leaf Collection #71
> 
> ...



So, yeah, he can't do like Minato. I think you need to think of another argument. 



> then he watches Ei having fun with Gojo Kibakufuda that he warped on him.



lol, what? 
1- His explosion tags needs ET.
2- If he used it himself he will die. 



> "Relentlessly violent detonations of explosion tags
> Reducing even tough armours to dust
> 
> Tags that summon more tags that then explode - a special explosion tag.
> ...


Not to mention even old Hiruzen was fast enough to get out of its radius, let alone A. 



> Ei is also "just one of the Gokage", Tobirama is portrayed as a far superior shinobi.



Where was he portrayed to be as such? 
A portrayed to be able to fight Kin/Gin and he was going to do so. The same people who shat on Tobirama. So, yeah, I failed to see what are you talking about. 

If anything Tobirama was portrayed to be below Darui judging by that.


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## ARGUS (Dec 22, 2014)

Tobirama wins with edos, 
however without them, im not seeing how he hurts Ay, whilst im not seeing how Ay lands a blow on Tobirama, so it could go either way


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## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Tobirama wins with edos,
> however without them, im not seeing how he hurts Ay, whilst im not seeing how Ay lands a blow on Tobirama, so it could go either way



Why do you think Tobirama's Edo are fast enough to catch A though? 
Remember they will be severely weakened because of the ET.

- I don't think landing a blow on Tobirama will be that problematic. Kin & Gin are far slower than A, and their reflexes are not even in Darui's level, and yet they succeeded to kill Tobirama the second time, and defeat him with the Raikage the first time.

Also, since A has a Bijuu level chakra, at worst he can outlast Tobirama.


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## RedChidori (Dec 22, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Tobirama wins with edos,
> however without them, im not seeing how he hurts Ay, whilst im not seeing how Ay lands a blow on Tobirama, so it could go either way



I agree with this.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

> Minato handles to perfection the “Hiraishin no jutsu” space-time ninjutsu that was invented by Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama



Nothing about speed.



> Fourth Hokage taking this technique and pushing it even higher.



Nothing about speed.



> Namikaze Minato improved the mastery of “Hiraishin no jutsu”, and thus took the nickname “The Yellow Flash”. The excellent jutsu was refined according to the disciple, who evolved it together with the era.



Nothing about speed.

Your statements are not about Minato's speed and reflexes. And Tobirama has been shown as a shinobi with better speed and reflexes than even BM Minato.

So he is gonna dodge Raikage's attacks easily. And than he can have fun with Raikage by using Hiraishin in many different ways. Plus, he has Suiton.

But i admit Tobirama probably wont hurt Raikage. 

However, he could outlast him. Theoretically.

Or, Tobirama can drown Raikage. Again, theoretically.


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## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

^
already explained that to you in the other thread. 




> However, he could outlast him. Theoretically.



I hope you don't mean Tobirama outlast A. lol


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## Ghost (Dec 22, 2014)

Ei wins.

Minato (who is faster than Tobirama) barely avoided Ei's max speed Shunshin. Tobirama is not avoiding Ei for long plus he lacks proper DC to put down the Raikage. 

I don't see Tobirama winning this especially when he has no knowledge while Ei has full.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

Saikyou said:


> Ei wins.
> 
> Minato (who is faster than Tobirama) barely avoided Ei's max speed Shunshin. Tobirama is not avoiding Ei for long plus he lacks proper DC to put down the Raikage.
> 
> I don't see Tobirama winning this especially when he has no knowledge while Ei has full.



Barely? No.

And for you featless young Ei is = Raikage Ei? 

And how Minato is faster than Tobirama? Explain please.


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## Ghost (Dec 22, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Barely? No.


How is this not barely avoiding? He had to use instant teleportation to dodge Ei.


> And for you featless young Ei is = Raikage Ei?


What the fuck are you on about? Young Ei almost blitzed and tagged Minato. How is that featless?


> And how Minato is faster than Tobirama? Explain please.



Have you paid attention to the manga at all?

Minato clearly has better speed feats, and:


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 22, 2014)

Ay wins. Unlike Minato, Tobirama doesn't have the numerous escape options of ftg kunais scattered all over the battlefield. 

And Ay was able to identify all Minatos kunai to try and intercept him. Tobirama doesn't have that luxary. Tobirama may evade Ay with ftg once or twice, but V2 will definitely catch Tobirama.

Tobirama has no technique apart from edo tensei that can bypass Ays armor (LOL at water techniques). And GKF cant catch Ay, he can run away before the explosions even set off. It's not a technique that can work on fast high level powerful opponents. Only reason it caught Juubito was because Hashirma (the god of shinobi) was there to restrain Obito from moving. Even Hiruzen outran the technique, so Ay definitely will.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

> Have you paid attention to the manga at all?
> 
> Minato clearly has better speed feats, and:



Yes i did.

Nope.

Minato has faster travel speed because of his Shunshin superiority and Hiraishin technique. But is not faster than Tobirama in terms of combat speed and reflexes. 



> What the fuck are you on about? Young Ei almost blitzed and tagged Minato. How is that featless?



He never land a hit on Minato. They fought many times and Minato was still superior to younger Ei. 

And the fact he avoided it point-blank. And the fact they fought many times. All those facts make me think Minato didnt have a hard time to dodge him.

Plus, its actually better to avoid attack in such a manner. Ei didnt have time to land another one, or do anything at all.

And yeah, young Ei is featless and far below his Shippuden self.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Ay wins. Unlike Minato, Tobirama doesn't have the numerous escape options of ftg kunais scattered all over the battlefield.
> 
> And Ay was able to identify all Minatos kunai to try and intercept him. Tobirama doesn't have that luxary. Tobirama may evade Ay with ftg once or twice, but V2 will definitely catch Tobirama.
> 
> Tobirama has no technique apart from edo tensei that can bypass Ays armor (LOL at water techniques). And GKF cant catch Ay, he can run away before the explosions even set off. It's not a technique that can work on fast high level powerful opponents. Only reason it caught Juubito was because Hashirma (the god of shinobi) was there to restrain Obito from moving. Even Hiruzen outran the technique, so Ay definitely will.



Tobirama can avoid even his V2 attacks. He is fast enough to do it on his own, without FTG usage. 

But yeah, he cant hurt Ei.


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## Ghost (Dec 22, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Minato has faster travel speed because of his Shunshin superiority and Hiraishin technique.


So you agree Tobirama gets raped in CQC? 


> But is not faster than Tobirama in terms of combat speed and reflexes.


What feats put Tobirama above Minato in combat speed and reflexes? 



> He never land a hit on Minato.


And? He was an inch away from hitting though and Tobirama is slower than Minato.


> They fought many times and Minato was still superior to younger Ei.


Yet Minato never managed to kill Ei. I wonder why, oh yeah, maybe because just like Tobirama he lacked DC to do anything to Ei.


> And the fact he avoided it point-blank.


Uhm, the fact that Minato had Ei perfectly in his LoS just made it easier for him to dodge. Had Ei ambushed Minato from behind with his max speed the former would've died.


> And the fact they fought many times. All those facts make me think Minato didnt have a hard time to dodge him.


Frankly I don't care what you think when in the manga Minato was shown barely reacting to Ei and needing Hiraishin to dodge. *Minato wasn't fast enough to dodge with just his Shunshin.*


> Plus, its actually better to avoid attack in such a manner. Ei didnt have time to land another one, or do anything at all.


what


> And yeah, young Ei is featless


Are you on something? I just showed an impressive feat from young Ei and you keep saying he is featless.


> and far below his Shippuden self.


Prove it. I also believe Shippuden Ei is stronger than the flashback one but not far stronger. You do realize that if prime Ei was far stronger than the flashback one he would be able to blitz both Minato and Tobirama casually?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 22, 2014)

Saikyou said:


> So you agree Tobirama gets raped in CQC?
> 
> What feats put Tobirama above Minato in combat speed and reflexes?
> 
> ...



Just so you know, Ay did strike Minato from behind, while Minato had his back turned and was walking away. And on that occasion, Minato reacted much faster (he avoided earlier this time, before ay got inches close). So Ay didnt have to be in Minatos LOS to dodge. Only reason it was so close the first time was because Ay surprised Minato with his speed, it was their first encounter afterall. But Minato quickly got used to his speed and was able to avoid it without a sweat the second time round.

And I don't believe Minato could damage A. Bee was so scared of Minato's strike on Ay, that he had to push his brother out of the way...what does that tell you. Not to mention Rasengans are powerful enough to hurt Ay, maybe not one is enough, but a barrage of them would.

And where's your proof that Minato wasn't fast enough to dodge with shunshin. Because Minato didn't just use hiraishin to dodge, he used it to counter attack simultaneously. If he used his shunshin, he wouldn't have been able to counter. Minato's shunshin speed has been compared to Naruto's multiple times, so yeah he did have the capability. However Hiraishin is just a better and more convenient jutsu option.


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## Ghost (Dec 22, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Just so you know, Ay did strike Minato from behind, while Minato had his back turned and was walking away.


Pretty sure Minato was looking right at Ei right there and had his Hiraishin prepped.


> And on that occasion, Minato reacted much faster (he avoided earlier this time, before ay got inches close).


Minato didn't react any faster at all. This time he knew how fast Ei truly is thus he didn't have that surprised reaction and to me it looks like Ei got just as close as he did before. He also knew Minato would be using Hiraishin so he had his attention on the FTG Kunai.


> So Ay didnt have to be in Minatos LOS to dodge.


Ei was in Minato's LoS the whole time.


> Only reason it was so close the first time was because Ay surprised Minato with his speed, it was their first encounter afterall.


So? Doesn't change the fact that Minato was unable to dodge without Hiraishin.


> But Minato quickly got used to his speed and was able to avoid it without a sweat the second time round.


Minato never got used to Ei's speed on the level that he would be able to dodge without Hiraishin. 


> And I don't believe Minato could damage A. Bee was so scared of Minato's strike on Ay, that he had to push his brother out of the way...what does that tell you.


Bad writing or young Ei wasn't as durable in his youth as he was in his prime.

Ei took Sasuke's Chidorigatana without receiving any damage at all and Sasuke's point blank Chidori did just a little scratch. 



> Not to mention Rasengans are powerful enough to hurt Ay, maybe not one is enough, but a barrage of them would.


Not really. Base Rasengan wouldn't do much to Ei.


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 22, 2014)

Saikyou said:


> Ei wins.
> 
> Minato (who is faster than Tobirama) barely avoided Ei's max speed Shunshin. Tobirama is not avoiding Ei for long plus he lacks proper DC to put down the Raikage.
> 
> I don't see Tobirama winning this especially when he has no knowledge while Ei has full.



Minato did barely avoid Ei's max speed the first time when initially used. However, Minato seemed able to more comfortably avoid subsequent blitzing attempts[1] once he had experienced Ei's speed the first time; to the point of being able to react while his back was partially turned. 

I think in Tobirama's case, this may prove to be similar. If he can evade the first attack and "experience" Ei's speed, he will be less susceptible to follow up blitz attempts.

You are right though, Tobirama was given no knowledge on Ei here, but I don't think he's completely without knowledge. This is directed at not just you but also Hussain. The Lightning Release Body Flicker[1] was around and used during Tobirama's time/ generation. 

Tobirama potentially may have seen it before just as Madara (clearly) has seen it before. I'm not sure whether he has but it's a question imo considering Tobirama seems to have been depicted as very knowledgeable/ intelligent. If OP says this  knowledge is restricted though then I'll drop this point.

I will also say regardless of the above argument Tobirama is a sensor. Because of this, Tobirama will know or should receive earlier warning that Ei is about to attack, meaning he can begin to react faster than Minato would have begun.

Minato was stated to be faster than Tobirama, but the context of that statement was referring to the shunshin no jutsu. Minato did not at all use shunshin to evade V2 Ei, he used hiraishin. All that really matters is successfully reacting in time with hiraishin. In this regard, I think Tobirama would be superior to Minato since he is a sensor.

Tobirama's no stranger to the mangekyou sharingan and has clearly seen and most likely dealt with Amaterasu/enton in the past. These attacks are in the same vein as Ei's V2, they're very fast and difficult to evade and come with little warning. It isn't like Tobirama hasn't faced(likely many times) something similar in the past to Ei's V2.

I think having experience with those jutsus + being a sensor points to Tobirama dodging the first attempt, then pretty casually handling the subsequent blitz attempts.

Whether or not Tobirama can kill Ei through the shroud and those biceps I don't know, but imho I don't think Ei's defeating him via a blitz.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 22, 2014)

Saikyou said:


> Pretty sure Minato was looking right at Ei right there and had his Hiraishin prepped.
> 
> Minato didn't react any faster at all. This time he knew how fast Ei truly is thus he didn't have that surprised reaction and to me it looks like Ei got just as close as he did before. He also knew Minato would be using Hiraishin so he had his attention on the FTG Kunai.
> 
> ...


Minato had his back turned and was walking away. In what world is that some minato having a good los? Actaully Minato was half turned, he wasn't completely facing Ay. Point is. Minato wasn't faced forward looking straight at Ay. Yet you can see how composed Minato is this time.

You contradict yourself, you say minato didn't react faster, yet say he got used to the speed. WHich is what I already said. How is that not reacting faster? If he got used to the speed, it means he was able to react faster, common sense.

You also say Ay got just as close as before. Well not really. Last time he was basically touching minatos nose. This time he didn't even reach Minatos jacket collar, not was Minato phased one bit, nor was Minato looking directly at him - you can clearly tell by this that Minato had gotten a clear understanding of Ays speed after the first time.  

He's not the third raikage, dont underestimate the rasengan. Chidori pierced him, which always stalmates with rasengan. However rasengan does greater internal damage. So it will pack a bigger punch than chidori. You think Ay can tank more than one, that's laughable.

And again, no proof that Minato couldn't evade with shunshin. He uses ftg because the jutsu surpasses shunshin (as the databook says). You use whichever technique is best for a situation.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 22, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Minato did barely avoid Ei's max speed the first time when initially used. However, Minato seemed able to more comfortably avoid subsequent blitzing attempts[1] once he had experienced Ei's speed the first time; to the point of being able to react while his back was partially turned.
> 
> I think in Tobirama's case, this may prove to be similar. If he can evade the first attack and "experience" Ei's speed, he will be less susceptible to follow up blitz attempts.
> 
> ...


Minato is also a top tier sensor, so half of your points are invalid. This isn't sage mode sensing, which gives you better perception and danger sensing. Regular sensing doesn't work like that. 

Just because tobirama can sense ay coming doesn't help him unless he is blind. Minato would have also sensed A, however I doubt it helped his cause at all.

Mu is an even better sensor than Tobirama, yet had no clue where A came from when he blitzed him, he was totally surprised.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 22, 2014)

A wins with these stipulations.
Minato spread the Kunai before the fight began, thats why he survived the initial blitz. With no knowledge on A's abilities, and without marked kunais, Tobirama won't be able to do so.


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## sabre320 (Dec 22, 2014)

Saikyou said:


> Pretty sure Minato was looking right at Ei right there and had his Hiraishin prepped.
> 
> Minato didn't react any faster at all. This time he knew how fast Ei truly is thus he didn't have that surprised reaction and to me it looks like Ei got just as close as he did before. He also knew Minato would be using Hiraishin so he had his attention on the FTG Kunai.
> 
> ...



Um what gives you the impression he couldnt dodge without ftg...he teleported onto the tree turned back teleported back to ei then positioned himself into striking position and would have easily landed the hit before ei even realized what happened....hirashin was by far the best option to use in the situation it allowed him to dodge and counterattack simultaneously...

bad writing thats interesting did u see the force behind minatos kunai strike? when has sasuke even remotely displayed such force behind his sword strike not to mention the raiton from his shroud negated the raiton on his sword.. 

a simple lariat from base bee overpowered and negated the shroud..
this much damage to destroy

Did u see the size of minatos rasengan its more comparable to oodama rasengan
this much damage to destroy
 base chidori was able to draw blood...
this is a rasengan from kcm naruto with his force behind it hence stronger then sasukes chidori..
this much damage to destroy
this much damage to destroy
compare the crater...now use ur commonsense
its much stronger then a base rasengan not even close and a base chidori was able to draw blood...


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 22, 2014)

Minato danced around Ei rather easily. Tobirama might be a bit slower (although I doubt that the difference in speed is really all that much of a game changer here), but has better reaction speed and top tier chakra sensing to augment that. He can definitely avoid Ei's maximum speed, especially if he bothers using kage bunshin feints, and with his intelligence it'd probably only be a matter of time until he nailed the Raikage.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

> So you agree Tobirama gets raped in CQC?



Nice logic there, lol. 

Travel speed doesnt help in fighting. Or do you think an olympic runner will be faster in a fight than an olympic/professional boxer in the same weight class as the runner?

Minato's travel speed is better, because his Shunshin is better. But Tobirama has superior reflexes and combat speed. Plus his sensing. He could avoid Minato's attacks no problem.



> What feats put Tobirama above Minato in combat speed and reflexes?



Tobirama put a FTG formula on Juubito. *BM* Minato did nothing and lost his arm. 



> And? He was an inch away from hitting though and Tobirama is slower than Minato.



So what? Its better to react inch away. Because than your enemy has less time to do anything. 

And that shows how easily he reacted to Ei. Even that point blank punch can be dodged by Minato.

And i have a quastion for you - what feats put Minato above Tobirama in combat speed and reflexes?



> Yet Minato never managed to kill Ei. I wonder why, oh yeah, maybe because just like Tobirama he lacked DC to do anything to Ei.



Tobirama cant harm Ei. But he can react to Ei.



> Uhm, the fact that Minato had Ei perfectly in his LoS just made it easier for him to dodge. Had Ei ambushed Minato from behind with his max speed the former would've died.



Well, from ambush? Maybe. But Tobirama is an excellent sensor. Far better than base Minato



> Frankly I don't care what you think when in the manga Minato was shown barely reacting to Ei and needing Hiraishin to dodge. Minato wasn't fast enough to dodge with just his Shunshin.



Well, Hiraishin is his trademark technique, you know. No wonder he used it against Ei. And it is highly debatable if he *barely* dodged his attack.

Anyway, base Minato is featless, just like young Ei. But if you think that beating fodders and featless characters is a great speed feat, well, than he is not featless.



> Are you on something? I just showed an impressive feat from young Ei and you keep saying he is featless.



Minato dodged him. And he dodged him many times during his lifetime. But he himself is only a fodder-beating character, with no impressive speed feats except hype and praise.



> Prove it. I also believe Shippuden Ei is stronger than the flashback one but not far stronger. You do realize that if prime Ei was far stronger than the flashback one he would be able to blitz both Minato and Tobirama casually?



When you prove to me he had tailed beast level chakra and V2 comparable to his Shippuden and War arc. self, then we can talk. When you prove to me his many years of training havent improved him at all, then we can talk. When you show me his younger self speed feats except beating fodder-buster base Minato, then we can talk.


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## sabre320 (Dec 22, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Minato danced around Ei rather easily. Tobirama might be a bit slower (although I doubt that the difference in speed is really all that much of a game changer here), but has better reaction speed and top tier chakra sensing to augment that. He can definitely avoid Ei's maximum speed, especially if he bothers using kage bunshin feints, and with his intelligence it'd probably only be a matter of time until he nailed the Raikage.



Tobirama lacks the utility with ftg that minato has and the markers...about tobirama having better reaction speed thats rather debatable and minato is also a sensor not to mention normal sensing is not like sage mode perception...the problem with marking a is that he needs to pierce the raiton armour to land a tag or marking seal and tobirama lacks any cqc jutsu that allow him to do so...
while i agree that tobirama is generally portrayed above the gokage..he needs to pierce the shroud and his feats dont show how he is going to do that especially when it is necessary to do so to land a marking seal on a


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## Bonly (Dec 22, 2014)

So Tobi lacks knowledge on A while A has full. Welp without all those extra kunai that Minato carry around chances are Tobi's gonna get punched in the face pretty hard


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 22, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Minato is also a top tier sensor, so half of your points are invalid. This isn't sage mode sensing, which gives you better perception and danger sensing. Regular sensing doesn't work like that.
> 
> Just because tobirama can sense ay coming doesn't help him unless he is blind. Minato would have also sensed A, however I doubt it helped his cause at all.
> 
> Mu is an even better sensor than Tobirama, yet had no clue where A came from when he blitzed him, he was totally surprised.


I did know Minato was called a sensor.

Not all sensing gives you heightened ability to evade attacks in combat. I think there's a difference between being a general sensor and a combat sensor. The difference mainly is one is passively active while the other has to be activated. Muu, Juubito, SM Kabuto and SM Naruto are examples of combat sensors. 

In Minato's case I don't believe he's a combat sensor. He's only ever been depicted as sensing from afar and Zetsu was able to do this to him [1]. There are numerous instances of shinobi getting the drop on him. I have been under the impression Tobirama is a combat sensor. I think sensing was something Tobirama  developed to combat the Uchiha and their techniques[1]. Admittedly I'm not sure though. I've never believed Minato to be a combat sensor though, his feats simply don't match it though I'm open to argument / the perspective that Minato is indeed a combat sensor .

Secondly, being blind isn't the only way (combat)sensing helps you, it always helps you. It's just an additional sixth sense added to your five senses[1]. From how I understand it having eyesight only enhances you further if your already using (combat) sensing. Seeing + Hearing > Seeing + Deaf. It's the same thing with sensing, seeing doesn't take away from it.

Muu's just way to slow to evade lightened+v2 ei even if he did sense it coming. Kinda like part 1 lee vs sasuke.  Muu's definitely a combat sensor though, his feats prove it.


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## Ghost (Dec 22, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Nice logic there, lol.


Yes. Minato who is faster than Tobirama was almost tagged by Ei.


> Travel speed doesnt help in fighting. Or do you think an olympic runner will be faster in a fight than an olympic/professional boxer in the same weight class as the runner?


lolwhat


> Minato's travel speed is better, because his Shunshin is better.


You think? That's what I've been saying. Tobi gets his face punched in CQC. Even if he were able to react he won't be able to dodge if he doesn't have Hiraishin prepped. 


> But Tobirama has superior reflexes and combat speed.


Where do you get this from?


> Plus his sensing.


Doesn't help jack shit here.


> Tobirama put a FTG formula on Juubito. *BM* Minato did nothing and lost his arm.


Unfair comparison. It was multiple people against Juubito. Make a thread with BM Minato and Tobirama individually against Juubito and see who fares better. 


> So what? Its better to react inch away. Because than your enemy has less time to do anything.


Not really. Ei would have harder time to change his direction mid charge. 


> Even that point blank punch can be dodged by Minato.


With Hiraishin. He is not dodging Ei without teleportation. 


> And i have a quastion for you - what feats put Minato above Tobirama in combat speed and reflexes?


Sorry mate but I asked you first. I know that Minato is faster than Tobirama but don't remember anything that would imply Tobirama has better reactions and attack speed.



> Tobirama cant harm Ei. But he can react to Ei.


orly. I wonder what I've been saying. Tobirama is not able to dodge Ei without Hiraishin and lacks DC to put down Ei.





> Anyway, base Minato is featless, just like young Ei.


yeah no.


> But if you think that beating fodders and featless characters is a great speed feat, well, than he is not featless.


Do everyone a favor and re-read the manga.




> When you prove to me he had tailed beast level chakra and V2 comparable to his Shippuden and War arc. self, then we can talk. When you prove to me his many years of training havent improved him at all, then we can talk. When you show me his younger self speed feats except beating fodder-buster base Minato, then we can talk.



You dull my head better than the Legendary Hussain himself. gz.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

> Yes. Minato who is faster than Tobirama was almost tagged by Ei.



Minato is not faster than Tobirama in close combat and reflexes.



> You think? That's what I've been saying. Tobi gets his face punched in CQC. Even if he were able to react he won't be able to dodge if he doesn't have Hiraishin prepped.



Well, maybe Minato dodged Ei only because of Hiraishin, maybe he himself is not fast enough. But nevertheless, he doesnt have feats to put him on Tobirama's level in terms of combat speed and reflexes.

It wont be easy for Ei and it will take time for sure. Tobirama can dodge him.



> Where do you get this from?



From feats.



> Doesn't help jack shit here.



Yeah - he dont need it here. He can dodge Ei without it.



> Unfair comparison. It was multiple people against Juubito. Make a thread with BM Minato and Tobirama individually against Juubito and see who fares better.



No its fair. Hashirama did nothing at all there. It wont matter if he wasnt there at all. Tobirama was still fast enough to put a FTG formula on him. When Juubito was close enough, Tobirama put that formula on him. While Minato, whos speed was amped by Kyuubi at that time, did nothing at all against Juubito. 



> With Hiraishin. He is not dodging Ei without teleportation.



Ok, with that i agree.

Doesnt make a difference here, since Tobirama reacted to Juubito. 

And he didnt try to dodge Juubito in the first place, by the way.



> Sorry mate but I asked you first. I know that Minato is faster than Tobirama but don't remember anything that would imply Tobirama has better reactions and attack speed.



And i already gave you an answer. 

Now its your turn. 



> orly. I wonder what I've been saying. Tobirama is not able to dodge Ei without Hiraishin and lacks DC to put down Ei.



he can dodge him with his own speed. He reacted to Juubito.



> yeah no.



Yes. 



> Do everyone a favor and re-read the manga.



Did. Still have the same opinion.


----------



## Blaze Release (Dec 22, 2014)

Its interesting how Minato fans likes to underestimate Tobirama and play down his abilities, yet its this hiraishin that if Minato didn't copy, he would probably be a standard jonin and wouldn't have this many fans. lol.

Anyway Tobirama wins. As the Nindaime Hokage and former bodyguard of shodaime Hokage, already gives him information on EI. He would firstly note that he is a kumo ninja via the headband. Kumo shinobi for whatever reason seem to raiton users. Secondly his sensoring capability allowed him to figure out karin being an uzumaki. The raikage's seem to be from the same family (may also explain their raiton affirnity), if Tobirama was to sense, he may be able to note a link between EI and the 2nd or even 1st Raikage. We may not know exactly what their abilities were, but i believe it will be similar to sandaime and EI. Fast movement with raiton and basically nintaijutsu.

That may be enough for Tobirama even with no knowledge on EI, his knowledge on previous raikage's of his generation, combined with his sensing will give him a tip and this may be followed by him using the kage bunshin. With that, even without any sort of spreading of kunai's, he firstly gains evasiveness, but also the ability to tag his bunshins and use them the same way minato uses his hiraishin kunai's.

Full Knowledge for EI would mean that like Minato, Ei will start talking about how he knows of Tobirama's speed (fastest of his generation) and what not, Tobirama will take this time where Ei is rumbling on, to gain the information he needs through sensing and previous knowledge on raikage's and deploy a strategy for any incoming attack

He managed to lay a tag on jj Obito who is obviously faster than EI. I his reaction speed allowed him such feat. Can see him tagging Ei and hiraishingiri him.



ARGUS said:


> Tobirama wins with edos,
> however without them, im not seeing how he hurts Ay, whilst im not seeing how Ay lands a blow on Tobirama, so it could go either way



Then logic applies to Minato as well then because im not seeing any of his living arsenal harming Ei.


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## Veracity (Dec 22, 2014)

Tobirama with Edos could defeat AY + his father. He destroys Ay alone. Chakra flow to his sword at Ay's temple ends his life.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 22, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I did know Minato was called a sensor.
> 
> Not all sensing gives you heightened ability to evade attacks in combat. I think there's a difference between being a general sensor and a combat sensor. The difference mainly is one is passively active while the other has to be activated. Muu, Juubito, SM Kabuto and SM Naruto are examples of combat sensors.
> 
> ...



Black Zetsu cannot be sensed. He is undetectable. Or are you forgetting what he did to Juubi Madara. I can't remember which chapter it was, but it was confirmed that black zetsu cannot be sensed, I'll find it later. Edit: The jutsu is called Mayfly, as the databook explains, once zetsu merges with the ground or plants, his presence cannot be detected. Even karin couldn't sense him, even Ao didn't sense white zetsu coming.

Well minato and tobirama have their sensing similarities and both have been portrayed together as sensors. Remember the finger sensing technique? Both Minato and Tobirama use it, minato does it with 1 finger, tobirama does it with 2 fingers (not sure if this means anything). Also notice how only tobirama and minato were shown to be able to sense outside of the uchiha shrine, hashirama and hiruzen were the only two who didn't sense the outside world.

Mu seemed extremely surprised though, as if he couldn't sense where he came from at all. Of course I get he couldn't have possibly reacted anyway, but he didn't seem to detect where ay disappeared to either.

And your list of "combat sensors" as you call them mostly consist of sage mode user, who all gain the ability to sense danger faster and get an increase in perception, so they're kind of excluded. Mu is the best sensor I've seen (without any blood line or clan ability or sage power up). Tobirama has been shown not to sense everything though, same as Minato. When he chased after naruto from being drained by the god tree, hiruzen came off panel to beat tobirama to it, he was surprised to see hiruzen, and didnt sense him coming at all. Then you have the fact that neither minato nor tobirama sensed madara or the 9 tails, until orochimaru pointed it out to them. Then you have hashirama (who isn't the best sensor, outside of sage mode atleast), who sensed that orochimaru was made up of his cells before tobirama did. 

There was that one time that Minato sensed obito sneak up behind him, and then he turned and slashed him.


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## SSMG (Dec 22, 2014)

Ei gets smoked. Tobirama will cut him down with his ftg slash.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 22, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Ei gets smoked. Tobirama will cut him down with his ftg slash.



I dont think that Tobirama can do damage to Raikage.


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## Veracity (Dec 22, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> I dont think that Tobirama can do damage to Raikage.



Chakra flowed sword slash to the temple will kill him . A well placed punch to the temple from a child can kill a grown man . Even if Raikage doesn't die after one, once tobirama has him tagged, he can rinse and repeat without getting touched.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 22, 2014)

Like many have said in the thread tobirama lose. He has no knowledge on A's speed, no prepped with ftg kunai and no kunai scattered to escape a blitz. He certainly doesn't have the shunshin speed(slower than minato by his own admission) or the reactions to run or muster a dodge before getting ran over.


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## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Minato danced around Ei rather easily. Tobirama might be a bit slower (although I doubt that the difference in speed is really all that much of a game changer here), but has better reaction speed and top tier chakra sensing to augment that. He can definitely avoid Ei's maximum speed, especially if he bothers using kage bunshin feints, and with his intelligence it'd probably only be a matter of time until he nailed the Raikage.



The different in speed is NOT small. If we are talking about shunshin, Minato was able to out run all the Hokages, use S/T barrier, go around the Juubi, and had a conversation with his child before the others could arrive. 

Minato improved the FTG as well, the different in their speed IS what made Minato gain the "Yellow Flash" nickname, and gave him the ability to wipe out entire armies in no time.


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## Sablés (Dec 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Minato improved the FTG as well, the different in their speed IS what made Minato gain the "Yellow Flash" nickname, and gave him the ability to wipe out entire armies in no time.



No it isn't.

Minato's moniker has nothing to do with Tobirama. How does one improve on instantaneous teleportation? Speed doesn't play a factor there.

Regardless, its quite obvious Minato's movement speed is above Tobirama's however that does nothing for A. On simple grounds that Tobirama proved to be just as effective against Obito as monsters like Naruto Sasuke and BM Minato himself should be enough to consider in a different league than A, who  can't even tango with Base Madara.


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## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

Liquid said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> Minato's moniker has nothing to do with Tobirama. How does one improve on instantaneous teleportation? Speed doesn't play a factor there.
> 
> Regardless, its quite obvious Minato's movement speed is above Tobirama's however that does nothing for A. On simple grounds that Tobirama proved to be just as effective against Obito as monsters like Naruto Sasuke and BM Minato himself should be enough to consider in a different league than A, who  can't even tango with Base Madara.


Yes it is. 
- Regardless if you believe it or not is irrelevant. That what Kishi stated, so that how it is.  



> ”!!?” (Volume 53, Chapter 503)
> Displaying astonishing skillfulness with “Hiraishin no jutsu”!!
> Overwhelming the Masked Man that is the mastermind behind the Kyuubi Incident!!
> 
> ...







> 飛雷神互瞬回しの術 Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu/
> 
> 
> Ninjutsu
> ...






> p. 270
> Konoha
> Hundred Leaf Collection #71
> 
> ...



As you can see, every time the FTG is mentioned, it also mentions how Minato improved it and took it to a higher level. 

The improvement are Minato's FTG is faster, he can teleport much more people, the Kunais, and some more jutsus such as S/T barrier, his long named jutsu..etc from what we have seen, 

- As for working in a team it does not prove anything whatsoever, since working with a team gives all kind of advantages. Not to mention, Most of what Tobirama did was teleporting them, and they are the ones who actually did the attacks. Here, Tobirama should do those attacks by himself, and what are his attacks that going to effect A? 

For example, Mei was working with the other Gokages just fine, and Tsunade worked as well and made Onoki able to destroy all 25 Susanoo. I doubt you will see people saying Tsunade is 25 levels above MS itachi, Sasuke...etc


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## Rocky (Dec 22, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Minato danced around Ei rather easily. Tobirama might be a bit slower (although I doubt that the difference in speed is really all that much of a game changer here), but has better reaction speed and top tier chakra sensing to augment that.



Minato consistently avoided A by preemptively spreading out marked Kunai. Tobirama can't do the same, even if he had the necessary knowledge to try.



> and with his intelligence it'd probably only be a matter of time until he nailed the Raikage.



With _what?_

I can't think of a thing in Tobirama's arsenal that can put a scratch on A, sans that exploding tag jutsu that is too difficult to set up here. He could possibly warp him away and win by BFR, but that's about it.


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## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

> I can't think of a thing in Tobirama's arsenal that can put a scratch on A, sans that exploding tag jutsu that is too difficult to set up here. He could possibly warp him away and win by BFR, but that's about it



Wouldn't Tobirama need to put a mark outside of the battlefield first, to Teleport A there?
and by doing so, HE would fall for BFR?


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## Rocky (Dec 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Wouldn't Tobirama need to put a mark outside of the battlefield first, to Teleport A there?
> and by doing so, HE would fall for BFR?



He has marks spread around the Narutoverse, which I consider standard prep (ie. Sasori's puppets, Gaara's sand, Deidara's clay) for both Tobirama & Minato.


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## Trojan (Dec 22, 2014)

Fair enough.


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## Sablés (Dec 22, 2014)

Why do you presume perfecting a technique equates to making it faster?

Do you not understand the concept of teleportation? The moment you attribute a speed factor here, you've dropped the ball. At best, the medium or efficacy through which Minato can use his FTG is superior, his speed _can't _be, teleportation is instantaneous.

EDIT:



> - As for working in a team it does not prove anything whatsoever, since working with a team gives all kind of advantages. Not to mention, Most of what Tobirama did was teleporting them, and they are the ones who actually did the attacks. Here, Tobirama should do those attacks by himself, and what are his attacks that going to effect A?



>Implying I was referring to team maneuvers.

Tobirama reacted to Obito, tagged him, trapped him in his Jutsu and proceeded to bail Minato out of a very quick death. All feats are related to speed and intelligence, what does A have that surpasses that?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 23, 2014)

Yeah hussain instant teleportation cannot be faster than instant teleportation. That just can't happen.

The databook had to be referring to his pre-marked kunai and space time barrier.


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## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

Liquid said:


> Why do you presume perfecting a technique equates to making it faster?
> 
> Do you not understand the concept of teleportation? The moment you attribute a speed factor here, you've dropped the ball. At best, the medium or efficacy through which Minato can use his FTG is superior, his speed _can't _be, teleportation is instantaneous.



- Obviously because the jutsu itself is about speed. What is there to the FTG other than the teleportation itself? Nothing, it only teleports. We were told that Minato improved it, and because of that improvement, he became the Yellow Flash, and praised to be the greatest in god-like speed. Such a thing Tobirama was never able to accomplish. 


- This is a fiction work my dear. If you can take talking animals who can gain energy, and fire water guns, and a tongue that can cut steals in half...etc, what the problem with this specifically? 

I honestly do not know which was the part that you read "medium or efficacy" Because what is stated is about the jutsu ITSELF.

again


> Minato handles to perfection the “Hiraishin no jutsu” space-time ninjutsu that was invented by Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama,


It talks about the FTG itself, and obviously it was not perfect when Tobirama had it. It is Minato who made it as such.



> Fourth Hokage taking *this* technique and pushing it even higher


as you can see here, it mention the jutsu ITSELF.

and the 3rd one



> Namikaze Minato improved the mastery of “Hiraishin no jutsu”, and thus took the nickname “The Yellow Flash”. The excellent jutsu was refined according to the disciple, who evolved *it* together with the era



As far as I am concerned the "IT" is for FTG, so Minato improved, evolve, and refined it I.E "FTG" 
and that works with the first statement, since if it were already perfect that wouldn't make sense.


Now, can you explain how/why was not Tobirama named something like the "Blue Flash" or something? 

why was it Minato who is known to be the fastest and the greatest in the speed, and not Tobirama?


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## SSMG (Dec 23, 2014)

Not once did any of those data books entries state minatos ftg is faster than tobirama. Its talking about the usage of the technique as others have said such as v2 ftg or the ftg barrier. Also he had that crazy named ftg jutsu as well all of which are improvements over tobirama ftg usage.


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## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Yeah hussain instant teleportation cannot be faster than instant teleportation. That just can't happen.
> 
> The databook had to be referring to his pre-marked kunai and space time barrier.



- It did happen in Kishi's manga. 
or simply Tobirama's FTG is not instant. 

- No, the databook talks about the jutsu itself. 



> >Implying I was referring to team maneuvers.
> 
> Tobirama reacted to Obito, tagged him, trapped him in his Jutsu and proceeded to bail Minato out of a very quick death. All feats are related to speed and intelligence, what does A have that surpasses that?



Never believed in the reacting thing. 
the explosion tags were inside of Tobirama, as we have seen him pulling them out of his body. When obito destroyed his body physically those explosion tags stuck to him. 


A was fast enough to attack KCM Naruto, and even Madara (who dodged and destroyed Tobirama). Also, it's pointless to be able to tag someone if you're going to lose your life in the process. It's not like if Tobirama is untouchable, both Kin and Gin destroyed him twice, even though they are not nearly as fast as A, not even as fast as Darui!

Now, for the sake of the argument, let's say Tobirama tagged A, and then what? 
He is going to use his water jutsus (that is not even in the same level as Darui's) to take A down? 

What exactly is he going to do in your opinion to take A down?


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Chakra flowed sword slash to the temple will kill him . A well placed punch to the temple from a child can kill a grown man . Even if Raikage doesn't die after one, once tobirama has him tagged, he can rinse and repeat without getting touched.



what chakra flow are u talking about? tobirama never showed any capability with raiton or fuiton... if it was fuuton i could agree but raiton was stopped no problem against sasuke and tobirama hasnt displayed any brilliant striking strength...not to mention you seem to ignore he needs to negate or pierce the shroud to land a marking seal...and it needs to be done simultaneously..


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## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

One more thing, this is my favourite. People are forcing themselves to believe that Kishi cares as how things work 
in real life, but



Can anyone of you perhaps explain this things to me? 
How is the original's FTG is faster than the Clone's FTG if, according to you, it can't happen? 

I am waiting to see the explanation for this scan. 

What does Tobirama mean by saying "Too Slow"?


----------



## Sablés (Dec 23, 2014)

Improved =/= Making it faster

You can't make teleportation faster. Just because this is fiction does not mean you can deride even the most basic of logic at your own convenience without sufficient evidence. What proof is there that Minato's FTG is 'faster than Tobirama's teleportation? This is obviously a loaded gun as I'm certain Kishimoto is smarter than a 5th grader; where in that databook is speed *explicitly *mentioned.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

Liquid said:


> Improved =/= Making it faster
> 
> You can't make teleportation faster. Just because this is fiction does not mean you can deride even the most basic of logic at your own convenience without sufficient evidence. What proof is there that Minato's FTG is 'faster than Tobirama's teleportation? This is obviously a loaded gun as I'm certain Kishimoto is smarter than a 5th grader; where in that databook is speed *explicitly *mentioned.




^
Explain please. ^_^
why was it possible here?!


----------



## SSMG (Dec 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> One more thing, this is my favourite. People are forcing themselves to believe that Kishi cares as how things work
> in real life, but
> 
> 
> ...



Simple. It takes longer for a clone to react to a given situatiom and activate the jutsu.


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## Kyu (Dec 23, 2014)

> Can anyone if you perhaps explain this things to me?
> How is the original's FTG is faster than the Clone's FTG if, according to you, it can't happen?



The clone's reactions probably aren't up to par with the original's.


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> what chakra flow are u talking about? tobirama never showed any capability with raiton or fuiton... if it was fuuton i could agree but raiton was stoped no problem against sasuke and tobirama hasnt displayed any brilliant striking strength...not to mention you seem to ignore he needs to negate or pierce the shroud to land a marking seal...and it needs to be done simultaneously..



Standard chakra flow. Like chakra flow to a Kunai. Something that Jounin level ninja can accomplish.

Sasukes Chidori pierced around 2-3 inches into Ay's chest . If he had aimed for any vital point he would have killed him on the spot.

The difference between attacking the chest in compassion to attacking a vital spot( neck, face, temple, spine) is larger then the difference between a chakra flowed kunai and chidori. You can kill any individual with a well placed punch to the temple, so Kunai and sword lunges to Ay's temple won't kill him? Even if it needs to be repeated more then once, he's easily going to succumb to the damage.

If Onoki is able to touch Ay and change his weight, then why wouldn't Tobirama be able to place a tag on his body. Can you provide a single panel that says otherwise ? Even if he couldn't , he could simply warp to pre tagged clones that close in on Ay and FTG slash him.


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## Sablés (Dec 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Never believed in the reacting thing.
> the explosion tags were inside of Tobirama, as we have seen him pulling them out of his body. When obito destroyed his body physically those explosion tags stuck to him.



I was referring to the FTG tag Tobirama placed on him. Furthermore, that was a specific jutsu that Tobirama required handsigns to summon. Either way, this requires action on Tobirama's end.




> A was fast enough to attack KCM Naruto, and even Madara (who dodged and destroyed Tobirama). Also, it's pointless to be able to tag someone if you're going to lose your life in the process. It's not like if Tobirama is untouchable, both Kin and Gin destroyed him twice, even though they are not nearly as fast as A, not even as fast as Darui!



I seem to recall Obito was fighting Naruto Gai and Kakashi at the same time and keeping pace with them. Point I'm trying to make here is that A's won't  be outspeeding him any time soon.

We didn't see the Kinkaku squad fight Tobirama. Circumstances are a complete unknown.



> Now, for the sake of the argument, let's say Tobirama tagged A, and then what?
> He is going to use his water jutsus (that is not even in the same level as Darui's) to take A down?
> 
> What exactly is he going to do in your opinion to take A down?



I've never factored water Jutsu here but why are Darui's jutsu better than Tobirama's?

Second either seeks an opportunity to BFR or drags out the fight long enough to have clones riddle the field with explosive tags while he makes an exit and leaves A to burn.


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

Eveyone seems to not realize that tobirama can kill Ay with 2-3 strikes to his neck, spike or temple. He was able to destroy part of a building by tapping it ... That force applied to the tip of a kunai and sword would wreck Ay. Fuck that. One strike to the temple would kill him.


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## Sablés (Dec 23, 2014)

Because its pretty obvious this is a thinly veiled minato vs tobirama thread right? 



> or simply Tobirama's FTG is not instant.



I can work with that. Since its not teleportation, Tobirama blitzed Obito. GG


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

You have to multiply tobiramas part AoE Suiton Justu by the difference of part 1 Hashiramas flower world to Madara's( being nice considering Madara is < to Hashirama in Mokuton). 

That's almost a multiple of 20 which puts Tobirama's Justu on the level of Meis.

Except Tobiramas water Justu as an edo was concentrated.... It's like comparing Madaras Juubi sized Katon to his dragon enchanced katon ... Both made by the same individual but which is bigger and which is stronger ?


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## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Eveyone seems to not realize that tobirama can kill Ay with 2-3 strikes to his neck, spike or temple. He was able to destroy part of a building by tapping it ... That force applied to the tip of a kunai and sword would wreck Ay. Fuck that. One strike to the temple would kill him.



the original scan
Sasuke's sword did not scratch him though. 
the same sword that cut through JJ SM Madara even without being powered up by lightning. 



Likes boss said:


> You have to multiply tobiramas part AoE Suiton Justu by the difference of part 1 Hashiramas flower world to Madara's( being nice considering Madara is < to Hashirama in Mokuton).
> 
> That's almost a multiple of 20 which puts Tobirama's Justu on the level of Meis.
> 
> Except Tobiramas water Justu as an edo was concentrated.... It's like comparing Madaras Juubi sized Katon to his dragon enchanced katon ... Both made by the same individual but which is bigger and which is stronger ?




Kishi does not treat Hashirama as Tobirama obviously. Not to mention Hashirama's chakra is more than 5 times that of Tobirama


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## Bonly (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Eveyone seems to not realize that tobirama can kill Ay with 2-3 strikes to his neck, spike or temple. He was able to destroy part of a building by tapping it ... That force applied to the tip of a kunai and sword would wreck Ay. Fuck that. One strike to the temple would kill him.



The last time a sword when to the neck of A the sword went and bounced right off so people might have their doubts about Tobi landing a killshot with a sword.

Edit: Darn it Based Hussain, you beat me to the punch


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 23, 2014)

Tobirama.

 If Base Minato dances around Ei and BM Minato who's a lot stronger than Base Minato got his arm blown off while Tobirama reacted to Juubito who's a lot faster than Ay, then Tobirama's reactions are definitely more than enough to hold off Ei.

 The only problem is really damaging him, so he does indeed need an Edo Tensei to pull off his explosive tags.


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## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> Tobirama.
> 
> If Base Minato dances around Ei and BM Minato who's a lot stronger than Base Minato got his arm blown off while Tobirama reacted to Juubito who's a lot faster than Ay, then Tobirama's reactions are definitely more than enough to hold off Ei.
> 
> The only problem is really damaging him, so he does indeed need an Edo Tensei to pull off his explosive tags.



How is Tobirama going to fight with half of his body torn apart though? 
wouldn't he be killed from losing blood? 



Bonly said:


> Edit: Darn it Based Hussain, you beat me to the punch



that's what I do.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Dec 23, 2014)

A wins with (high) mid difficulty. Tobirama's ET is weaker than Orochimaru's, which was already terrible.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How is Tobirama going to fight with half of his body torn apart though?
> wouldn't he be killed from losing blood?
> 
> 
> ...



 How's he going to lose blood if Ei can't even touch him?


----------



## Sablés (Dec 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> It does not matter honestly how long it takes since A has more chakra. Also, since you believe that
> "the clone's FTG is too slow" means "the clone's reaction is too slow" and the improvement Minato made is in the reaction itself, how do you think Tobirama is going to react to A's first punch to his face?



Simple. He dodges

Tobirama can somewhat keep up with Obito as Jinchuuriki. The gap in speed between him and A is vast enough where one can make the case Tobirama would have little difficulty doing better against A. Minato is faster but that doesn't mean he has superior reactions. 









> Tobirama's level as shown at first
> 
> Compare to Darui's level
> 
> ...



Dude, this is quite obviously a matter of power inflation. NONE of the Jutsu used back then will be comparable in scale to what is used now for the standard of the verse was lower. Kakashi and Zabuza weren't all of a sudden fodder in the early chapters because their feats are outdated compared to the latter half.




> That such a cheap "victory"
> Also, if he's going to use so much clones, he wouldn't be able to keep up for long.



Hey, it works. 

Also, point about Sasuke cutting Madara and not doing the same to A. What evidence is there Sauce remained the same physically? And please don't say EMS don't improve physical capability. From a meta standpoint, the series always had Sasuke's body increase in power with every bullshit power up he came across. EoS has him matching Naruto Madara and Kaguya, that's a bit more than we'd expect of him back in the Kage Summit arc.

In addition, Sasuke pierced Madara, those are more concentrated than a slash (assuming A blocked a slash, can't remember).  If that's the best A has tanked, I don't see Tobirama after the casual strength feat he displayed during his unveiling to be incapable of harming him.


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## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

Strangely, I am entertained in this debate about Tobirama this time. 



NarutoX28 said:


> How's he going to lose blood if Ei can't even touch him?



Because his "amazing reaction" is accomplished by getting his shit stomped out of him.  
(If that makes sense. lol)


> [=Liquid;52526838]Simple. He dodges
> 
> Tobirama can somewhat keep up with Obito as Jinchuuriki. The gap in speed between him and A is vast enough where one can make the case Tobirama would have little difficulty doing better against A. Minato is faster but that doesn't mean he has superior reactions.



Getting himself "killed" is NOT keeping up. 

Minato's reaction are superior to Tobirama obviously. Minato lost an arm against superior Obito, when Tobirama got destroyed completely against a weaker one. Minato also reacted to 8th Gate Gai, a feat that Tobirama does not have. 

Also, supposedly Minato improved the FTG by having greater reaction according to you people, no?  
So decide already was the improvement has to do with reaction or not? 






> Dude, this is quite obviously a matter of power inflation. NONE of the Jutsu used back then will be comparable in scale to what is used now for the standard of the verse was lower. Kakashi and Zabuza weren't all of a sudden fodder in the early chapters because their feats are outdated compared to the latter half.


I know, but Tobirama is doomed with them now. He has not shown any different, and that the only feats we have for him with those jutsus. 


> Hey, it works.
> 
> Also, point about Sasuke cutting Madara and not doing the same to A. What evidence is there Sauce remained the same physically? And please don't say EMS don't improve physical capability. From a meta standpoint, the series always had Sasuke's body increase in power with every bullshit power up he came across. EoS has him matching Naruto Madara and Kaguya, that's a bit more than we'd expect of him back in the Kage Summit arc.


I don't know what does Sasuke's improvement have to do with the sword sharpness honestly. 
the sword is like it is, no matter who uses it. 



> In addition, Sasuke pierced Madara, those are more concentrated than a slash (assuming A blocked a slash, can't remember).  If that's the best A has tanked, I don't see Tobirama after the casual strength feat he displayed during his unveiling to be incapable of harming him.


Sasuke did that to Madara twice.
1- with that sword via the teleportation
2- his lightning sword.

A tanked Sasuke's chidori. He also endured the teleportation that is supposed to tear up every human apart because of the ridiculously high speed
without a scratch eaither.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

@ Bonly

Scratch neck and use temple then lol. 

Tobirama does this by touching the wall: bounced right off

That chakra flowed to his kunai would do serious damage to a temple. I'm even tempted to assume his charms flow is superior to sasukes raiton flow considering the emphasis Kishi added to that feat of Tobiramas. Not that it needs to be anyways.

@hussian.

I don't think you understand how that works. Kishi likes Hashirama better then Tobirama . True . And that's the reason Hashirama is > to Tobirama.  But that's not how scaling works. Tobirama and Hashirama were brought back at the same power, Hashirama's Justu are about 20x more impressive then his part 1 edo incarnation. Same applies to Tobirama. It's as simple as that basically.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Eveyone seems to not realize that tobirama can kill Ay with 2-3 strikes to his neck, spike or temple. He was able to destroy part of a building by tapping it ... That force applied to the tip of a kunai and sword would wreck Ay. Fuck that. One strike to the temple would kill him.



Yeah....right.

That was caused by Hashirama's chakra surge, not Tobirama's touch. Even if he had cracked a wall, there isn't any wall in the Narutoverse that is even remotely comparable to A's natural body in durability, let alone A wearing his armor. 

You have no basis for comparison.


----------



## Sablés (Dec 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Because his "amazing reaction" is accomplished by getting his shit stomped out of him.
> (If that makes sense. lol)
> 
> 
> Getting himself "killed" is NOT keeping up.



How was he 'killed'? For all we know, he took that blow intentionally as he had nothing to fear from a physical confrontation or did you not find it odd that Deidara, Sasori and practically every other Edo Tensei were lax in evading attacks they normally should have alive.

And you're missing the point. if Tobirama can react to Obito, he damn sure isn't having a problem with A. This is the equivalent of claiming a man who manages to evade the full brunt of a racer is going to be blitzed by a Mini-van.



> Minato's reaction are superior to Tobirama obviously. Minato lost an arm against superior Obito, when Tobirama got destroyed completely against a weaker one. Minato also reacted to 8th Gate Gai, a feat that Tobirama does not have.



Scans?

And if so. that would be BM Minato. I was referring to the one who fought A considering that's what is relevant here. Again, this is poorly disguised Minato vs Tobirama debating 



> Also, supposedly Minato improved the FTG by having greater reaction according to you people, no?
> So decide already was the improvement has to do with reaction or not?



Don't recall I ever said that. Minato's done a ton more with his FTG than Tobirama has. FTG: Level 2 and Space-time barriers are above the Second.





> I know, but Tobirama is doomed with them now. He has not shown any different, and that the only feats we have for him with those jutsus.



Some pretty obvious powerscaling can work here. The only character's whose water jutsu has been praised to that extent was Kisame.



> I don't know what does Sasuke's improvement have to do with the sword sharpness honestly.
> the sword is like it is, no matter who uses it.


...............

If you swing a sword into the ground, you'll cut a bit of dirt.

Goku swings the same  sword and he'll rip the planet in half. 

Ever heard of Kinetic energy?



> Sasuke did that to Madara twice.
> 1- with that sword via the teleportation
> 2- his lightning sword.



Yes but I asked whether it was a stab or a slash. The former is deadlier than a slash because all of the energy is concentrated onto a single point rather than along the edge.




> A tanked Sasuke's chidori. He also endured the teleportation that is supposed to torn every human apart because of the ridiculously high speed
> without a scratch eaither.



He did? Well that's fair enough to say Tobirama won't be breaking his raiton barrier with brute strength.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Standard chakra flow. Like chakra flow to a Kunai. Something that Jounin level ninja can accomplish.
> 
> Sasukes Chidori pierced around 2-3 inches into Ay's chest . If he had aimed for any vital point he would have killed him on the spot.
> 
> ...



Chidori is a deadly high rank elemental piercing technique and chakra flow even without an element is just underwhelming...why are u assuming an inferior technique is going to work ehen chidori gatana bounced off his neck..

I dont know maybe because a allowed oonoki to touch him and change his weight..his armour can repel and deflect physical touch as on sasukes sword..


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## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

> [=Liquid;52526976]How was he 'killed'? For all we know, he took that blow intentionally as he had nothing to fear from a physical confrontation or did you not find it odd that Deidara, Sasori and practically every other Edo Tensei were lax in evading attacks they normally should have alive.


From what we have seen they were actually trying to dodge regardless of being an ET as Minato said regenerating takes a while. Minato used his FTG trying to dodged Obito's attack, and Hiruzen also tried to do so, but Obito was way faster than him. As for Deidara, and Sasori, they were out flat speedblitzed IIRC. 



> And you're missing the point. if Tobirama can react to Obito, he damn sure isn't having a problem with A. This is the equivalent of claiming a man who manages to evade the full brunt of a racer is going to be blitzed by a Mini-van.


Just as you claim that we don't know what happened exactly with Kin and Gin, can't that apply here?
For example, when Obito dislocated him, his arm touched obito. Like, when Madara cut Minato's arm off, that arm still held the Rassengan, and it was used to attack Kakashi. So, for all we know, this scenario "could" have happened. 

Either way, it required a huge sacrifice from Tobirama's part. And IIRC, for the sake of the argument, I assumed that Tobirama will be able to pull that off here as well without getting his head cut off, the problem will come afterword. Which is how is he going to take him down. Which, you decided that Tobirama can only win by BFR in this case.

Long story short, whether Tobirama can tag A or not, it's not going to change much really. 


> Scans?


Of him reaction to 8th Gate Gai? If so



> And if so. that would be BM Minato. I was referring to the one who fought A considering that's what is relevant here. Again, *this is poorly disguised Minato vs Tobirama debating*


No, that was armless Minato, who just got Kurama pulled out of him.

@Bold
They always turn out to be like that. 
People just love to give Tobirama Minato's feats. 
They sometimes go to extreme, especially in Obito Vs Tobirama. :rofl  
it can't be helped. 


> Don't recall I ever said that. Minato's done a ton more with his FTG than Tobirama has. FTG: Level 2 and Space-time barriers are above the Second.


Well, that is not improvement in the jutsu itself though, but whatever.  





> Some pretty obvious powerscaling can work here. The only character's whose water jutsu has been praised to that extent was Kisame.


Nah, not really. The only thing Tobirama was praised for is for using a water jutsu without a water source. Which has been retconned obviously since everyone and their mothers can do that now. Tobirama has no hype in water jutsu other than that. 



> If you swing a sword into the ground, you'll cut a bit of dirt.
> 
> Goku swings the same  sword and he'll rip the planet in half.
> 
> Ever heard of Kinetic energy?



Mmm, theoretically, since I am real person, I will by able to cut through the entire universe of Goku's word that is drown in a paper. 

but yeah, I guess you have a point, even though Sasuke's physical power did not change that much, since his powers are from his eyes, unlike Narudo whose his power has to do with his body. 


> Yes but I asked whether it was a stab or a slash. The former is deadlier than a slash because all of the energy is concentrated onto a single point rather than along the edge.


Fair enough. It was a slash against A, and stab against Madara, I believe. 




> He did? Well that's fair enough to say Tobirama won't be breaking his raiton barrier with brute strength.


Sure he did. 
bounced right off
bounced right off
bounced right off
bounced right off
bounced right off

He was not even using his lightning armour, I may add.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 23, 2014)

> Minato's reaction are superior to Tobirama obviously. Minato lost an arm against superior Obito, when Tobirama got destroyed completely against a weaker one. Minato also reacted to 8th Gate Gai, a feat that Tobirama does not have.



Only half of his body was destroyed. And Juubito wasnt slower against Tobirama unless you can bring here a legitimate proof he was. Juubito didnt know how to use Yin/Yan release properly. And Minato's assumption is just an assumption. Thats it.

And Tobirama saved BM Minato. Juubito attached Gudoudama to Minato. And if not for Tobirama, there wouldnt be even half of BM Minato's body - he would have been completely destroyed.

Tobirama lost half of his body and taged Juubito with FTG formula. BM Minato did nothing, lost his arm and would be completely destroyed if not for Tobirama, who saved him. Also, it was Bijuu Mode Minato. That means his speed/reaction were amped drastically. 

So it is obvious Base Minato has nothing on Tobirama in terms of reflexes and combat speed. The only things he has on Tobirama are: better Hiraishin (better, but not faster) and faster Shunshin (is a technique, has nothing to do with Minato's own speed and reflexes).

And he reacted to Gudoudama. Plus, Kakashi and Gaara were able to do the same. Guy probably slowed down to gather chakra for his last EE punch.

Minato himself was completely, easily and effortlessly blitzed by Juubidara when he was in a Sage Mode. 7th Gates Guy did much better against Juubidara than SM Minato. He wasnt blitzed at all and put Juubidara on a defensive.

8 Gates Guy has combat speed and reflexes beyond Minatos imagination.

And in general, Minato is one of the most overrated characters in Narutoverse.



> Also, supposedly Minato improved the FTG by having greater reaction according to you people, no?



His FTG improvement has nothing to do with speed and reaction. He perfected that technique, but it still wasnt faster than that of Tobirama.

And show me Ei's speed feats.




And i will tell my opinion on Minato.

Guys, do you have a common sense? What Minato has done? Beat featless young Ei and featless young Obito because of his Hiraishin, not because of his own speed? Teleported Bijuu Dama that were outran by Hashirama no problem? Defeated lots of cannon fodders? Did worse then Tobirama against Juubito when he was in his Bijuu Mode? Teleported already slowed down Juubi Dama? Came to battlefield because of the speed of his Shunshin and because it was a part of Kage's battle preparation? Got blitzed by Juubidara who, moments later, couldnt blitz 7th Gate Guy? Reacted to Gudoudama to which many characters were able to react?

LOL, such a "fastest" shinobi. Such a *"GOD-LIKE"* speed.

But Minato's fans wont listen. They will take his feats out of context. They wont pay attention to details. And they will bring statements about his "perfected" Hiraishin technique and speed of Shunshin technique not paying any attention to 2 facts:

1. Hiraishin was perfected, but that doesnt mean his Hiraishin was the fastest. 
2. Shunshins speed has nothing to do with users own speed and reflexes. Its a technique's speed. Thats all.

I am sure Hussain wont even reply to me. He will write about Minato's *"GOD-LIKE SPEED"* feats. He will write that nonsense about "Mindless Obito" thing basing it, as many others, on Minatos *ASSUMPTION*. Etc.

I am not Minato's hater. He is one of the best characters in whole Narutoverse. But people are overrating him too much.

*By the way, Ei withstood Jugo's blast point blank. How Tobirama suppose to hurt him?*


----------



## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

^
You do know that I am not going to bother with you, right? 
but I agree with this part though



> *His FTG improvement has nothing to do with* speed and *reaction*.



It's pretty damn obvious that the improvement is in the jutsu itself. Most likely the seal since it's different
and Minato's knowledge with sealing jutsus far exceeds Tobirama's. Applying his knowledge of the Uzumaki's
sealing jutsu is most likely what made the jutsu far better than Tobirama. 

As we know, Tobirama's level is not enough to take on 20 fodders even with backup, even though he has FTG.
Unlike Minato, whose level can take on an army.

It's really sad that he was dragged down to be put with Tobirama in the same sentence if you ask me. 

anyway, Tobirama's jutsus are useless against A. Almost, everyone in this thread agree that he will lose, so
this thread is pretty much done.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> You do know that I am not going to bother with you, right?
> but I agree with this part though
> 
> ...



Maybe.

We dont know the details of how he died. In order to bring that up, you have to know the exact details.

People underestimate Tobirama's speed and reflexes a lot.

But yeah - Tobirama cant hurt Ei or tire him out, since he doesnt have feats to think so. So, this thread is done.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 23, 2014)

Strange how Minatos kunai was about to slash Ay, we saw the fear in Ay's eyes, to the point where Killber had to save him from a fatal blow. Yet Sasuke's chidori sword bounces off A lol.

I guess Minatos kunai are super sharp, maybe he infused wind chakra to counter the Lightning armor. Who knows.

All I know is Minato kunai > Sasuke's chidori blade


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## SSMG (Dec 23, 2014)

@hussain nothing was stated about the jutsus speed being slower either just that a clones ftg is slower.. So we are both assuming I do hope you realize this. The thing is you're stating your assumption as fact whereas our assumption is merely placed here in order to justify your assumption.


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## Icegaze (Dec 23, 2014)

Why do people think it's easier to throw kunai or quicker than 1 bloody seal to form a clone 
Esp from someone with the hand speed to tag Juubito 6 times 
Once tobirama forms a clone he wins 
The clone takes the hit and tags Ei 
From there tobirama has this in the bag 

The ET can be hirashin to A so he can't escape them 
Then GFK he won't be able to escape and he won't be able to hit tobirama who has already tagged him


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 23, 2014)

Hussain...belittles your posts with smilies and pushes his opionon over as fact

Person posts scans showing otherwise...dissapears and pops up in another thread saying the same thing

and repeat


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 23, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Why do people think it's easier to throw kunai or quicker than 1 bloody seal to form a clone
> Esp from someone with the hand speed to tag Juubito 6 times
> Once tobirama forms a clone he wins
> The clone takes the hit and tags Ei
> ...



Minato has shown to carry and disperse many kunai at once. it's much faster to throw say 2-3 kunai then for Tobirama to make 2-3 clones since they appear realitivly close to the user. 

Especially if Minato has the help of fellow shinobi to spread out his kunai as seen in the manga.


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

@ Rocky
Rocky do you even know what I'm talking about ? I posted the scan in my previous post. Ya know, him being able to cave in a wall by touching it? Now imagine more chakra then that forced into the tip of a sword and then released on contact on Ay's temple? I think it would one shot him, but say it doesn't... If tobirama has AY tagged , he can rinse and repeat multiple times. Ay is doomed.

@Sabre

That's cool and all , I know it has hype. But Tobirama similar hype just by caving in a wall by touching it. That proves that he not only has immense chakra levels , but that this chakra is extremely powerful . Normal chakra flow might not work,  but chakra flow from probably the second strongest Senju to live ? Lol deadly as all get out. 

For one, Sasukes didn't aim at his neck per se. He aimed at his shoulder muscles which happen to be large enough to actually guard a portion is his neck. Ay doesn't have muscle on his temple, attacking the temple would have been a far dangerous area to attack. Not only this , but Tobirama doesn't have the match the power of Chidori with one swing, he can easily match it with 2-3 strikes. Either way, Ay is getting killed.

It's up to you to prove that Ay can allow others to touch his cloak. That makes no sense at all, nor has it been explained or shown.

Notice how Onnoki had already been touching Ay's shoulder before he even relayed the plan. I doubt Ay just allowed Onoki to touch him here : bounced right off


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## Sorin (Dec 23, 2014)

Can Tobirama use his seal explosions with his clones? Because if he can then he might win, otherwise he doesn't have anything in his arsenal that can put down A. Not to mention that w/o the multitude of seals Minato threw around A, Tobiroama doesn't quite have the multitude of options to escape A's blitz.

Eh, he can always go full Al-Qaeda on A's ass and suicide bomb himself along with the raikage. So a draw.


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## Rocky (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @ Rocky
> Rocky do you even know what I'm talking about ? I posted the scan in my previous post. Ya know, him being able to cave in a wall by touching it?



That wall was already cracked before Tobirama touched it; by _Hashirama._



> Now imagine more chakra then that forced into the tip of a sword and then released on contact on Ay's temple?



Sasuke rammed a lightning covered sword into A's neck and it failed to _scratch_ his _skin_. Stock chakra flow isn't a penetrative as Raiton, so a Kunai isn't doing jack.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 23, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Ei gets smoked. Tobirama will cut him down with his ftg slash.


how laughable. Chidori blade>ftg slash in sharpness, yet sasukes sword bounced off A. 


Sorin said:


> Can Tobirama use his seal explosions with his clones? Because if he can then he might win, otherwise he doesn't have anything in his arsenal that can put down A. Not to mention that w/o the multitude of seals Minato threw around A, Tobiroama doesn't quite have the multitude of options to escape A's blitz.
> 
> Eh, he can always go full Al-Qaeda on A's ass and suicide bomb himself along with the raikage. So a draw.



The technique can only be used with edo tensei. Which tobirama is featless with, hence why his fans always have to make up imaginary summons that he doesn't have. And the databook says it's a high probability that the user will also get caught into the explosion.

The bomb technique can be performed without edo tensei, however it becomes a suicide technique and leads to certain death.

So why people keep bringing up this technique is beyond me. Actually I know why, it's because it's the only thing in tobiramas arsenal which even has a chance of breaching A. Too bad tobirama's edo tensei is confirmed weaker than part 1 orochimaru. And we don't even know if he's made the preparation, sacrifices and obrained the dna needed to use the summoning. Unlike orochimaru and kabuto, they have feats here, and we know exactly who they can summon, because they've already done the prep before hand.

This is like trying to say hiruzen can use the hiraishin and edo tensei and rashomon, shadow possession jutsu etc. Because it's said he can use all the hidden jutsu of the leaf.


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That wall was already cracked before Tobirama touched it; by _Hashirama._
> 
> 
> 
> Sasuke rammed a lightning covered sword into A's neck and it failed to _scratch_ his _skin_. Stock chakra flow isn't a penetrative as Raiton, so a Kunai isn't doing jack.



And was further cracked by Tobirama thank you: _Hashirama._

Ay's muscles are guarding his neck, he doesn't have muscles guarding his temple plus the fact that a temple is more vital then a neck regardless. You can kill a person with a well placed temple punch . Tobirama can crack concrete by touch. Are you telling me if he really focused a large margin of chakra into the tip of a sword then added the momentum of FTG slash and aimed towards Ay's temple he wouldn't pierce in 2 try's ? He'd kill Ay lol.


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## Invictus-Kun (Dec 23, 2014)

Tobirama will kick some RAikage ass.

speed is speed. Ei had his shroud, but it is not forever, if Minato manage to outspeed Ei, Tobirama can do the same, and can be better.


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## Arles Celes (Dec 23, 2014)

How Tobirama hurts him? A kunai won't do when Chidori couldn't. And he cannot use his exploding seal technique without killing himself if he is not an edo.

I think Tobirama is both faster and smarter but lacking a powerful enough jutsu to bypass Ei's defenses can be a problem.


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## Veracity (Dec 23, 2014)

I swear I've seen some of the least Perceptive posts ever In this thread . It's almost a joke at this point .


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## Rocky (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> And was further cracked by Tobirama thank you: _Hashirama._



I see almost no difference between the wall before and after. Certainly nothing that would have any meaningful effect on this fight. 



> Ay's muscles are guarding his neck, he doesn't have muscles guarding his temple plus the fact that a temple is more vital then a neck regardless.



Sasuke's sword wasn't halted by the muscles in A's neck, it was halted by A's skin. Otherwise, A's neck would've at least been cut.

A's skin is still guarding his temple, meaning that Tobirama's Kunai isn't getting through. 



> You can kill a person with a well placed temple punch . Tobirama can crack concrete by touch. Are you telling me if he really focused a large margin of chakra into the tip of a sword then added the momentum of FTG slash and aimed towards Ay's temple he wouldn't pierce in 2 try's ? He'd kill Ay lol.



Even if a granted Tobirama the concrete cracking (lol) feat, it changes nothing. 

Kid Sasuke can knock out a giant bear with a standard kick, and an older Sasuke couldn't break the Raikage's skin with a direct slash from a Kusanagi sword covered in penetration-enhancing lightning. 

Tobirama has zero chance. Zero, zilch, zizzeroni.


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## Sorin (Dec 23, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> The technique can only be used with edo tensei. Which tobirama is featless with, hence why his fans always have to make up imaginary summons that he doesn't have. And the databook says it's a high probability that the user will also get caught into the explosion.
> 
> The bomb technique can be performed without edo tensei, however it becomes a suicide technique and leads to certain death.
> 
> ...



Ok...Not sure what you're arguing. 

I already said that he can always suicide bomb himself along with A. That means that he dies as well. Yeah, that's his only chance at hurting the raikage. Didn't even bring up edo tensei.


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Why do people think it's easier to throw kunai or quicker than 1 bloody seal to form a clone
> Esp from someone with the hand speed to tag Juubito 6 times
> Once tobirama forms a clone he wins
> The clone takes the hit and tags Ei
> ...



Tobirama has to pierce the shroud to land the marking seal...and he has no cqc tecniques to do so..the shroud blocks physical contact with the skin as with sasukes sword..minato was able to outrun an explosion pointblank and eis shunshin is comparable he will outrun it..


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

Sorin said:


> Can Tobirama use his seal explosions with his clones? Because if he can then he might win, otherwise he doesn't have anything in his arsenal that can put down A. Not to mention that w/o the multitude of seals Minato threw around A, Tobiroama doesn't quite have the multitude of options to escape A's blitz.
> 
> Eh, he can always go full Al-Qaeda on A's ass and suicide bomb himself along with the raikage. So a draw.



Tobirama has to immbobilize ei to fully utilise the explosion...otherwise ei outruns the blast how is he going to do so..minato was able to outrun a point blank explosion raikages shunshin is comparable..hiruzen could jump away before the explosion could catch him..


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## Sorin (Dec 23, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Tobirama has to immbobilize ei to fully utilise the explosion...otherwise ei outruns the blast how is he going to do so..minato was able to outrun a point blank explosion raikages shunshin is comparable..hiruzen could jump away before the explosion could catch him..



Yeah you're right. For some reason i remembered that Tobirama set off the tags and the explosion when Obito blitzed him. It turns out that he only put 3 or 4 tags on him at the beginning and when that failed he activated the rest of the jutsu after Hashirama's clone immobilized Obito.

Yeah Tobirama dies here. He can't put the raikage down and he doesn't have Minato's level with Hiraishin to escape A constant movement when he feels like it.


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @ Rocky
> Rocky do you even know what I'm talking about ? I posted the scan in my previous post. Ya know, him being able to cave in a wall by touching it? Now imagine more chakra then that forced into the tip of a sword and then released on contact on Ay's temple? I think it would one shot him, but say it doesn't... If tobirama has AY tagged , he can rinse and repeat multiple times. Ay is doomed.
> 
> @Sabre
> ...



Chidori is a high ranked technique made for piercing with raiton chakra ...tobirama pushed in an already crumbling wall how is that remotely comparable....uchihas are known for potent and powerfull chakra senjus are known for high reserves...so if anything focused chakra in the chidori gatana should be more powerfull in sasukes case who had his chakra compared to madara...while tobirama has never been praised for his reserves..while ei has his chakra compared to a bijus and him pumping that into his shroud should be superior to tobiramas..do you seriously think muscles of the neck can block a sword let alone a chidori blade wth.. his raiton armour blocked the sword..it prevented contact or else the sword would cut ei..oonoki was right beside ei are u saying oonoki blitzed ei and jumped on his back catching ei offguard who has super reaction he allowed oonoki to touch him he had no reason not to they were teaming up..he had knowledge on oonokis abilities..


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## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Hussain...belittles your posts with smilies and pushes his opionon over as fact
> 
> Person posts scans showing otherwise...dissapears and pops up in another thread saying the same thing
> 
> and repeat



- pushes my opinion over as a fact?  
Yeah, I am sure it's me who always say that Kishi does not know jackshit about his manga, and neither does Tobirama know about his jutsus. 

- If it's obvious that there is no point of debating, why should I continue? In all honestly it's pointless to argue with Tobirama's fans. They usually

1- Ignore his own words by his own mouth. 
2- They think they know better than Kishi and Tobirama, so they start creating excuses. 
3- Give him Minato's feats thinking it's Tobirama's own, or some silly shit "Minato did, so can Tobirama"
you will find some in this last page for sure. 

4- Holding to some fan-fictional hype such as thinking Tobirama is the greatest Water style user ever even though that has been proving wrong to them a billion time already. 
(As in it never existed to begin with. The ANBU only said it's incredible) 

I don't plan to waste my life in an endless loop debating with his fans. From a story point of view it's pretty obvious that Tobirama is the weakest out of the 4 first Hokages. As a matter of fact all of them have those statements that they are superior to him. Even Hiruzen said...


in front of him. 


Even the other Kages such as Mu and the Mizukages were shown to be able to fight an army with 2 Kage level opponents at the same time. A level that Tobirama could never reach. 

***************
As for A and pointblank attacks
shield
shield
shield


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## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

I don't care about your opinion regarding me. Also, almost all the members here arguing for A being the winner
except for some Tobirama's fanboys. lol

Heck, even that guy with the star avatar agreed. :rofl
you're just mad because of your beloved Tobirama turning out to be like that. As for scans, I don't remember you posted anything logical if you ask me. 

Or, go a head and put your argument to why would Tobirama be the victor in this thread, let's see your "logical" argument.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - pushes my opinion over as a fact?



All the time. You also go as far as to mock people with your smartass smilies thinking you're always right



> - If it's obvious that there is no point of debating, why should I continue? In all honestly it's pointless to argue with Tobirama's fans. They usually



Except when you actually debate "fans" or logical people and not trolls you run away and post/create the same bs in other threads



> 1- Ignore his own words by his own mouth.



Show me where I have ignored such comments



> 2- They think they know better than Kishi and Tobirama, so they start creating excuses.



Once again show me when I ignore such statements



> 3- Give him Minato's feats thinking it's Tobirama's own, or some silly shit "Minato did, so can Tobirama"
> you will find some in this last page for sure.



Show me where I have given Tobirama Minatos feats



> 4- Holding to some fan-fictional hype such as thinking Tobirama is the greatest Water style user ever even though that has been proving wrong to them a billion time already.
> (As in it never existed to begin with. The ANBU only said it's incredible)



Bad translation for a long time. Feats show hes not the greatest water style user



> I don't plan to waste my life in an endless loop debating with his fans. From a story point of view it's pretty obvious that Tobirama is the weakest out of the 4 first Hokages. As a matter of fact all of them have those statements that they are superior to him. Even Hiruzen said...



You will always be in an endless debate because you cannot understand panel sequence lol. How is it pretty obvious that Tobirama is the weakest out of the first four hokages? Pretty sure Tobiramas feats shit all over Sarutobi & when is the Minato and Tobirama debate so close in comparison?




> Even the other Kages such as Mu and the Mizukages were shown to be able to fight an army with 2 Kage level opponents at the same time. A level that Tobirama could never reach


. 

Lol holy shit I will not even begin to touch this because this could possibly be the most retarded thing you have ever said


You like many trolls are simply "one" panel readers


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 23, 2014)

In the OBD we once banned threads that were overdone or just bad for the community when it comes to wars and shit.

Wonder what would happen if we invoked that rule here.


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## Trojan (Dec 23, 2014)

@Complete_Ownage

I honestly don't see anything worth replying in your last post. 
Let's focus in this match up, shall we? 

How is Tobirama going to win here in your logecal opinion?


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## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

> I don't plan to waste my life in an endless loop debating with his fans. From a story point of view it's pretty obvious that Tobirama is the weakest out of the 4 first Hokages. As a matter of fact all of them have those statements that they are superior to him. Even Hiruzen said...



He could mean of "all of us, your comrades/pupils" or he could mean not strength and power with those words etc. 

And statements cant be taken as a legitimate proof, realy.


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## Trojan (Dec 24, 2014)

Statement are important because they give us certain things. Otherwise you would see all type of dumb things. 
If you go several years ago, people were saying Yamato is better than Hashirama because Hashirama did not
have "feats" back then. 

I was also negged when I said that Tobirama is superior to itachi (before the ET), and people were saying that dumb and all that shit, but now they accepted it more than before. 

They were also saying that A is superior to Minato around the Kage Arc, B, Kakuzu, Deidara, Sasori, Obito...and the list goes on and on and on. Yet, Minato owned most of those in 1 minute or so. So, instead of relying on fan-fiction battles the statements help to AT LEAST guid those fan-fictions in a better directions. 

Now, for Hiruzen, even the Databook states



> Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. All five nature alterations, Hidden (I think it means Clan based techniques), Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member




Why do you think Kishi focuses on how are all those characters better than Tobirama? It obviously not to tell us
that he is the superior one.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Statement are important because they give us certain things. Otherwise you would see all type of dumb things.
> If you go several years ago, people were saying Yamato is better than Hashirama because Hashirama did not
> have "feats" back then.
> 
> ...



First of all, the fact he showed greater talent doesnt mean he was more powerfull than Tobirama. Talent is = to your potential. Thats all. He showed greater talent/potential that Tobirama, but that doesnt mean he was more powerfull than Tobirama at that time.

You can beat me in a fight, but i can have greater potential in martial arts than you have. 

Also, you can re-watch Star Wars. Anakin had the greatest potential/talent, but he wasnt the strongest there.

Hope you'll get it.

And now, as for statements. They can be *wrong*. Characters can be *wrong*. Thats why statement cant always be taken as a legitimate proof of something. Madara told his PS sword can cut all matter. Is that true? No.

And Minato had already shown his speed/reactions level. He never owned Deidara, Kakuzu, Sasori etc. (although he could beat them).

And the Ei he faced many times is, power and speed-wise, *different* from the War Arc/Shippuden Ei.


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## Trojan (Dec 24, 2014)

- Except it was stated that he is stronger. 
From the looks of it
and then we have the fact that he's also more talented, and him saying that he's the best out of all of them.

- I have never seen Star Wars, believe it or not. 

- They could be wrong. However, when a statement has nothing to counter it, then we should take it as it is. Things can get reteconed obviously, but sometimes they also do not. 

- I meant A, B, and Obito, that's why I said "most". But yeah, now I think of it I worded that in a wrong way. My bad.



> And the Ei he faced many times is, power and speed-wise, different from the War Arc/Shippuden Ei.


Good, then I suppose you can show us this different, so go ahead...


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## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

> - Except it was stated that he is stronger.
> From the looks of it
> and then we have the fact that he's also more talented, and him saying that he's the best out of all of them.
> 
> ...



Is he realy the strongest Hokage? Do you think Iruka sensei's opinion can be taken as a legitimate proof of his superiority?

Because, in terms of feats, Hashirama is beyond any kage there is, or was, except Godlike Seventh.

And it also was stated that no one can beat Madara, except Hashirama.

Anyway, assumptions and statements from characters cant always be taken as a 100% proof of something.



> Good, then I suppose you can show us this different, so go ahead...



We know Ei trained a lot during those years and we know Raikage Ei has impressive feats. I'll wait for you to give me Young Ei's feats.


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## sabre320 (Dec 24, 2014)

Sometimes character statements give us knowledge of what opponents though of an opponent and insight into how they rated him..

Kin and gin did nor rate tobirama at all....
From the looks of it
while bee trembled at minatos name and ei thought he was unsurpassable...them being in canon the stronger tag team and superior shinobi...darui dodged v2 gink strikes quite easily..an ftg user of a hokage level should have done much better especially when backed up by a high level team that included sarutobi and danzou...hence the dissapointement..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 24, 2014)

> Sometimes character statements give us knowledge of what opponents though of an opponent and insight into how they rated him..
> 
> Kin and gin did nor rate tobirama at all....
> From the looks of it
> while bee trembled at minatos name and ei thought he was unsurpassable...them being in canon the stronger tag team and superior shinobi...darui dodged v2 gink strikes quite easily..an ftg user of a hokage level should have done much better especially when backed up by a high level team that included sarutobi and danzou...hence the dissapointement..



The fact they named him dead-ass doesnt mean they didnt thought of him as a strong kage-level shinobi.

And we dont know the details of their fights with Tobirama at all.


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## Veracity (Dec 25, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I see almost no difference between the wall before and after. Certainly nothing that would have any meaningful effect on this fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rocky you can't be serious ? . There is direct emphasis on the feat. That's the point of him touching the wall. You think he decided to touch the wall for fun or no? It's meaningful because being able to crack a wall with a CASUAL chakra serge could prove fatal to the Raikage.

Actually you have a point there not gonna lie. But you know that a person can kill another individual with a temple punch that doesn't even break the skin... Meaning Tobirama can actually simply attack Ay with blunt force( and the Chaka surge to obliterate concrete) to kill Ay without breaking his skin. Not saying it's gonna one shot him, but considering Tobirama can rinse and repeat probably more then 20 times, Ay is screwed.  

Um okay ? Tobirama > War arc Sasuke in physical strength and Tobirama is able to cave in part of a wall without a single attribute Of momentum and physical strength all with a casual chakra surge.


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## sabre320 (Dec 26, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Rocky you can't be serious ? . There is direct emphasis on the feat. That's the point of him touching the wall. You think he decided to touch the wall for fun or no? It's meaningful because being able to crack a wall with a CASUAL chakra serge could prove fatal to the Raikage.
> 
> Actually you have a point there not gonna lie. But you know that a person can kill another individual with a temple punch that doesn't even break the skin... Meaning Tobirama can actually simply attack Ay with blunt force( and the Chaka surge to obliterate concrete) to kill Ay without breaking his skin. Not saying it's gonna one shot him, but considering Tobirama can rinse and repeat probably more then 20 times, Ay is screwed.
> 
> Um okay ? Tobirama > War arc Sasuke in physical strength and Tobirama is able to cave in part of a wall without a single attribute Of momentum and physical strength all with a casual chakra surge.



You think casual chakra surges are going to prove deadly against raikage who was the one stated to have biju level chakra which he punches into his shroud when wasthe last time tobirama was stated to have huge chakra reserves?


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## Trojan (Dec 26, 2014)

Generalisation based on the Senju hype.


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## Rocky (Dec 26, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Rocky you can't be serious ? . There is direct emphasis on the feat. That's the point of him touching the wall. You think he decided to touch the wall for fun or no? It's meaningful because being able to crack a wall with a CASUAL chakra serge could prove fatal to the Raikage.



That wall was already cracked, and the durability of a damaged wall isn't even on the same planet as any Raikage. Just stop.

Also, I don't believe chakra surges are even applicable to physical strength. v1 A was swatting a Nine Tails Jinchuriki around the battlefield for Christs sake.



> Actually you have a point there not gonna lie. But you know that a person can kill another individual with a temple punch that doesn't even break the skin... Meaning Tobirama can actually simply attack Ay with blunt force( and the Chaka surge to obliterate concrete) to kill Ay without breaking his skin. Not saying it's gonna one shot him, but considering Tobirama can rinse and repeat probably more then 20 times, Ay is screwed.



You make it sound like the temple is some auto-kill area of the body. 

If you hit somebody hard enough in the head, they will die from blunt force trauma. The temple is a more susceptible part of the head, but getting hit there isn't going to result in automatic death for even a human. Boxing would probably be outlawed if that was the case. 

It would require an insane amount of blows for Tobirama to knock A out, even when targeting the head. It's far more likely that Tobirama gets tagged before he wears A down. He's actually probably going to get decked at the start of the fight, because he doesn't have markers to spread around like Minato, which is the only thing that saved the Yellow Flash.



> Um okay ? Tobirama > War arc Sasuke in physical strength and Tobirama is able to cave in part of a wall without a single attribute Of momentum and physical strength all with a casual chakra surge.



Tobirama didn't cave anything in. He caused a small crack on a wall that was already cracked. 

Even if Tobirama is stronger than Sasuke, Nindaime isn't working with a super penetrative blade, so it should even out.


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## Bonly (Dec 26, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @ Bonly
> 
> Scratch neck and use temple then lol.
> 
> ...



Tobi would have to actually touch A's skin in order to do anything but A's Raiton acts as a, well armor lol. Sasuke using Raiton flow through his sword wasn't able to touch A's skin, it just bounced off his V1 armor and the armor can get better by adding more chakra to it. While chakra flow may be nice I don't believe anything has hinted that normal chakra flow has more cutting/piercing power then Raiton chakra flow so Tobi may not be able to touch A's temple, though this would be assuming Tobi even thought of aiming for the temple in the first


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## Veracity (Dec 26, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That wall was already cracked, and the durability of a damaged wall isn't even on the same planet as any Raikage. Just stop.
> 
> Also, I don't believe chakra surges are even applicable to physical strength. v1 A was swatting a Nine Tails Jinchuriki around the battlefield for Christs sake.
> 
> ...



The wall was cracked much less then before . Hence the emphasis on the new crack. Then there's the fact that Tobirama did so casually. If he actually wanted to, he would have caved that wall in completely. Then there's the fact that he did so without momentum or actually applying physical strength.  And it doesn't really matter if Raikage > concerte as you just ignored multiple upon multiple factors I just mentioned above. Or that fact that the temple is a shit ton less durable then the rest of his body. If a Base lariat can completely knock his cloak off , then I believe that Tobirama can supersede the damage with multiple attempts to his vital temple.

The thing is boxing is substantially safer with boxing gloves and the fact that most people aim for body shots, or when aiming for headshots, they rarely ever graze  the temple. Like rarely lol. It wouldn't require that many blows considering Tobirama can essentially surge chakra through within his head by a simple tap. I think eventually, ay would fall prey.

Accept If Ay doesn't tag Tobirama the first jump, then he's never tagging a FTG user with kage Bunshin ever again. Then all Tobirama has to do is tag Ay( canonically did so with Juubito. Just replace Edo with a KB, and replace the much faster Juubito with Ay). & there was a whole lot of pis in that manga battle. Like Ay watching Minato place tags, or Minato watching Ay power up his cloak, or the entire conversations they were having. I'm confident that Tobirama can act fast enough .

He doesn't need a penetrative blade when he has super blunt force trauma.


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## Rocky (Dec 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The wall was cracked much less then before . Hence the emphasis on the new crack. Then there's the fact that Tobirama did so casually. If he actually wanted to, he would have caved that wall in completely.



Can you prove that? Or do you mean he could crack the wall with chaka and then crumble it with a punch or something..?



> The thing is boxing is substantially safer with boxing gloves and the fact that most people aim for body shots, or when aiming for headshots, they rarely ever graze  the temple. Like rarely lol. It wouldn't require that many blows considering Tobirama can essentially surge chakra through within his head by a simple tap. I think eventually, ay would fall prey.



Boxing gloves actually allow boxers to punch with _greater_ force due to a higher surface area. Gloves protect the boxer's hand, not the other dude's face. 

Wall cracking chakra surges aren't doing shit.



> Accept If Ay doesn't tag Tobirama the first jump, then he's never tagging a FTG user with kage Bunshin ever again.



But he _will_ tag Tobirama on the first jump. Nindaime has no knowledge on A, while A has full. Tobirama can't preemptively spread marks like Minato, and has no reason to do so because of the knowledge stipulation. 

It's the same situation as Minato. You tell me what would have happened to him had he not had those Kunai spread around.



> He doesn't need a penetrative blade when he has super blunt force trauma.



Penetrative force is more effective than blunt force against flesh. You really think blunt attacks are the way to go here? Sasuke collapsed a fucking ceiling on Raikage and he wasn't hurt _at all._


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## StarWanderer (Dec 27, 2014)

> Boxing gloves actually allow boxers to punch with greater force due to a higher surface area. Gloves protect the boxer's hand, not the other dude's face.



Punches are less traumatic because for *face* of boxing gloves. But you can knock out people with those. 



> But he will tag Tobirama on the first jump.



Tobirama has better combat speed and reactions than Tobirama. If KCM Naruto could keep up with Ei, than The Second can, for sure.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 27, 2014)

Tobirama wins. His reactions are at or near the likes of Minato's so with Hiraishin, A is not touching him. Not to mention the fact Tobirama not only has mastery of water, but also _wind_, which means a Futon covered Hiraishin Giri will bash through A's Raiton no Yoroi The manga made it clear how strong Tobirama is: his power was close to _Madara's_ by Madara's own admission so A really doesn't stand a chance against one of the old Hokages.


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## Trojan (Dec 27, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tobirama wins. His reactions are at or near the likes of Minato's so with Hiraishin, A is not touching him. Not to mention the fact Tobirama not only has mastery of water, but also _wind_, which means a Futon covered Hiraishin Giri will bash through A's Raiton no Yoroi The manga made it clear how strong Tobirama is: his power was close to _Madara's_ by Madara's own admission so A really doesn't stand a chance against one of the old Hokages.



A's reaction speed with the lightning is superior to Minato anyway.  
and what FTG if he does not have Kunais or do not use them the same way as Minato?

- Tobirama's water jutsu skill is by far the weakest we have seen, and it is his main element. His wind will be even weaker, I don't see how is that proof of anything. 

- lol, no his power was no where near madara's. The manga made it clear that Tobirama is 1 or 2 tiers below Kin/Gin's level. 
Even madara stated that only Hashirama who's a match for him. As for his statement about having the edge, is over both of them together.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 27, 2014)

Hussain said:


> A's reaction speed with the lightning is superior to Minato anyway.
> and what FTG if he does not have Kunais or do not use them the same way as Minato?


We've seen Tobirama mark kunai easily with his tags. He's marked Minato with his tag. Its very easy to make a normal kunai a Hiraishin kunai.


> - Tobirama's water jutsu skill is by far the weakest we have seen, and it is his main element. His wind will be even weaker, I don't see how is that proof of anything.


Hussain, can you stop? Tobirama is canonically the best Suiton user we've ever seen. STOP. USING. HIS. DEPOWERED. PERFORMANCE. AS. HIS. BEST! Seriously, how much cognitive dissonance do you have to claim Tobirama's Part 1 performance AS HIS BEST? 

Manga made him one of the _Four Strongest Fighters_ in the War. Manga made him tag fucking Obito and nearly blow him up! Seriously, stop it with the cognitive dissonance. Manga made him one of the strongest fighters ever.


> - lol, no his power was no where near madara's. The manga made it clear that Tobirama is 1 or 2 tiers below Kin/Gin's level.


Need I remind you that Kinkaku _was tearing apart two divisions all on his own and beating him required being fucking SEALED WITHIN HIS OWN WEAPON_, right? Oh wait, your cognitive dissonance on everything regarding Tobirama who isn't your favorite makes you downplay his level with a straight face. All because you don't want him to be at or over Minato.

We never saw Tobirama's fight with the Kin and Gin brothers, all we know he was outnumbered by Elite Shinobi and survived his first encounter with Kin and Gin.


> Even madara stated that only Hashirama who's a match for him.


Your cognitive dissonance is irritating dude:

Madara: Capitalizing on the moment when your opponent thinks he has won...you did that quite often if memory serves right. Always the shrewd man, taking advantage of the time I took to battle those kids. 

Tobirama: The feeling's mutual.

Madara: Fufu...but the heavens chose to smile upon me...once hailed as the fastest shinobi...just look at your pathetic self now...there's a reason why you brothers can't bring out your full strength now...call it coincidence, call it fate, but there's a gulf between our strengths now.

Madara near outright states that Tobirama's power was never far from his own until he got the Rinnegan and/or Tobirama not being brought back at full strength due to Edo Tensei.

So please, cut out the dissonance.


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## Trojan (Dec 27, 2014)

> =SuperSaiyaMan12;52551899]We've seen Tobirama mark kunai easily with his tags. He's marked Minato with his tag. Its very easy to make a normal kunai a Hiraishin kunai.



No one said he can't. But it's not his fighting style to use them as such. Also, he has no knowledge here, so why would he do that out of the blue? 



> Hussain, can you stop? Tobirama is canonically the best Suiton user we've ever seen. STOP. USING. HIS. DEPOWERED. PERFORMANCE. AS. HIS. BEST! Seriously, how much cognitive dissonance do you have to claim Tobirama's Part 1 performance AS HIS BEST?


The Best? lol, please. 
Those are his feats when he is almost at FULL POWER. 


Please, enlighten us how is that better than Kisame, Mei, Darui, or Kabuto. I am waiting. 
(Ironically enough, his part 1 feats in this regard are actually better than those ) 


> Manga made him one of the _Four Strongest Fighters_ in the War. Manga made him tag fucking Obito and nearly blow him up! Seriously, stop it with the cognitive dissonance. Manga made him one of the strongest fighters ever.


- That is not about each person of them unless you think every single one is stronger than Gai, BM Naruto..etc. Yeah, he tagged obito and he paid his life for it. NONE of the explosions (the actual jutsu) hit obito actually. 

Now, lets say he tagged A, and then what? 


> Need I remind you that Kinkaku _was tearing apart two divisions all on his own and beating him required being fucking SEALED WITHIN HIS OWN WEAPON_, right? Oh wait, your cognitive dissonance on everything regarding Tobirama who isn't your favorite makes you lie about his level with a straight face.


Need I remind you that Darui cut his arm off, and injured them several times, and the only reason they survived is because they were ET? Not to mention Kin that with his 6-tails V2 state. Kakuzu said he only becomes like this when Gin is defeated. 

Lie? 
I gave you the freaking manga panels, how is that lying? I hope this is going to be big enough so you can see it. 


Kakuzu's statement
Madara: Capitalizing on the moment when your opponent thinks he has won...you did that quite often if memory serves right. Always the shrewd man, taking advantage of the time I took to battle those kids. 

Tobirama: The feeling's mutual.

Madara: Fufu...but the heavens chose to smile upon me...once hailed as the fastest shinobi...just look at your pathetic self now...there's a reason why you brothers can't bring out your full strength now...call it coincidence, call it fate, but there's a gulf between our strengths now.


> We never saw Tobirama's fight with the Kin and Gin brothers, all we know he was outnumbered by Elite Shinobi and survived his first encounter with Kin and Gin.


He was with A in the first encountered and they were not out numbered in that one. And he barely make it alive. You claimed that he's near Madara's level, do you think Madara would be near his death by those two? Please!  



> Madara: Capitalizing on the moment when your opponent thinks he has won...you did that quite often if memory serves right. Always the shrewd man, taking advantage of the time I took to battle those kids.
> 
> 
> Tobirama: The feeling's mutual.
> ...


he's talking about being superior to BOTH, not Tobirama. It was stated several times BY MADARA HIMSELF. That only Hashirama can do that from their time. Perhaps you want to reread the manga with Dan's statement, Madara's statement to the Gokage, Madara's statement to Hashi in the flashback.  



> Madara near outright states that Tobirama's power was never far from his own until he got the Rinnegan and/or Tobirama not being brought back at full strength due to Edo Tensei.


 There is a reason to why he putted Hashirama in their.  
also, Tobirama stated that it's near his full power.  



> So please, cut out the dissonance.


I wonder. I will create a thread now and see if anyone believe in what you said.


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## Veracity (Dec 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Can you prove that? Or do you mean he could crack the wall with chaka and then crumble it with a punch or something..?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can I prove what exactly ? No I mean the amount of chakra he used to crack the walk was minimal , and he exerted no physical strength and gained no momentum . If He had the momentum of an FTG slash and was actually trying to kill someone , the damage would have been substantially greater.

You obviously have never boxed or don't know much about boxing. The force is greater , but it's like being hit with a pillow essentially, while being hit with bare hands is like being hit with a baseball bat. Hence the reason average individuals can draw blood off the first swing in a street fight while boxers can go rounds without drawing blood . The damage between the two is actually substantial. Boxing matches would be significantly shorter if they went bare-fist.

An increased chakra surge + physical strength + momentum aimed towards something as fatal as the temple MULIPLE times could equals Ay's death . Not to mention Super just strengthened my argument . Tobirama wielding Futton, equals a futton enhanced sword strike to Ay's temple or eyeballs .

Except Tobiramas reactions are > to base Minato , and that entire situation was PIS to begin with . Seeing Ay surge Bjuui level chakra through a Raiton cloak might advice Tobirama to opt to place a single tag somewhere distanced to his body . As long as he avoids the first shunshin , then he survives. He sees how fast ay is , and he decimates him . 

It depends on the situation . Assuming Tobirama can't pierce ays skin( but he got DAT FUTTON) , blunt  force damage is the best way to go when attempting to damage Ay with it rupturing the skin . And aiming for the temple just makes it all better.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 27, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Can I prove what exactly ? No I mean the amount of chakra he used to crack the walk was minimal.



This, prove this.



> You obviously have never boxed or don't know much about boxing. The force is greater , but it's like being hit with a pillow essentially, while being hit with bare hands is like being hit with a baseball bat. Hence the reason average individuals can draw blood off the first swing in a street fight while boxers can go rounds without drawing blood . The damage between the two is actually substantial. Boxing matches would be significantly shorter if they went bare-fist.





Where did you even get that. The last bare-knuckle boxing match in the United States went 75 rounds. 

Seventy fucking five.



> An increased chakra surge + physical strength + momentum aimed towards something as fatal as the temple MULIPLE times could equals Ay's death . Not to mention Super just strengthened my argument . Tobirama wielding Futton, equals a futton enhanced sword strike to Ay's temple or eyeballs .



A "chakra surge" cannot be combined with a physical strike to my knowledge. Do you like have an example of what you're saying will be done that you can link me to?

And cut the Wind Release stuff out. Simply having an affinity for a certain nature doesn't mean that you can flow it through a weapon. 



> Except Tobiramas reactions are > to base Minato , and that entire situation was PIS to begin with . Seeing Ay surge Bjuui level chakra through a Raiton cloak might advice Tobirama to opt to place a single tag somewhere distanced to his body . As long as he avoids the first shunshin , then he survives. He sees how fast ay is , and he decimates him .



No they aren't.

A also doesn't surge Biju level chakra through his shroud. He raised his chakra (not the chakra flowing through the shroud) to that level in order to _spam_ v2 against the Mangekyou. There is no reason for him to do that here, because he only needs one flicker.



> It depends on the situation . Assuming Tobirama can't pierce ays skin( but he got DAT FUTTON) , blunt  force damage is the best way to go when attempting to damage Ay with it rupturing the skin . And aiming for the temple just makes it all better.



If Tobirama can't pierce A's skin, that should tell you how long it's going to take to try and hurt him using blunt force. _No fucking way_ Tobirama manages to take him out before A hits him once. Not with Tobirama's limited Hiraishin.


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## Trojan (Dec 27, 2014)

Tobirama's best element is his water jutsu. His wind style, assuming he can actually use it, should be inferior to even that. (which is not that good to begin with)


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 27, 2014)

Hussain said:


> No one said he can't. But it's not his fighting style to use them as such. Also, he has no knowledge here, so why would he do that out of the blue?


Its not his fighting style to do so? He _marks an ordinary kunai to teleport to it while fighting Rinnegan Madara._ Tobirama is a shrewd, strategic man, you act like he's an idiot who wouldn't do something he does normally just because you hate Tobirama.



> The Best? lol, please.
> Those are his feats when he is almost at FULL POWER.
> 
> 
> ...


Wait, a PRECISION suiton attack that can cut up the fucking Shinju's roots is not impressive? Tobirama using an attack that is not only precise, but can cut like a Futon isn't impressive (remember how Kisame reacted to Killer Bee using Raiton for a Futon effect, same principle)? So much cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty here.

The manga and the databook say Tobirama is the best Suiton user to ever live. Sorry, canon > your downplay.


> - That is not about each person of them unless you think every single one is stronger than Gai, BM Naruto..etc. Yeah, he tagged obito and he paid his life for it. NONE of the explosions (the actual jutsu) hit obito actually.
> 
> Now, lets say he tagged A, and then what?


Tobirama and the reincarnated Hokage were part of the strongest fighters on the field. YOU? You think he's weaker than Darui when the manga explicitly says AND displays his power is far beyond it. You're so intellectually dishonest you will downplay Tobirama to the point where you disregard ALL his performance and say he's weak as shit! This is what is pissing me off Hussain, you're so dishonest you can't even admit that a character may be as strong or stronger than Minato. You even grudgingly admit that Hashirama is stronger than Minato. 


> Need I remind you that Darui cut his arm off, and injured them several times, and the only reason they survived is because they were ET? Not to mention Kin that with his 6-tails V2 state. Kakuzu said he only becomes like this when Gin is defeated.


Darui explicitly states that Kinkaku and Ginkaku were fighting that way _specifically_ because they were Edo Tensei. They can let themselves be damaged...so they can kick any severed limps with the Sacred Tools on an opponent (which is what happened). 


> Lie?
> I gave you the freaking manga panels, how is that lying? I hope this is going to be big enough so you can see it.
> 
> 
> ...


Its lying since you're ignoring stuff. Ignoring that there were 18 other elite Shinobi with Kinkaku and Ginkaku. Downplaying Kinkaku and Ginkaku to the point of absurdity because you don't want Tobirama to have been beaten by extremely strong opponents (which is how the manga fucking treated them). You're so intellectually dishonest you lie about feats and twist power statements away from what you DO not like. You don't debate here Hussain, if you did you would admit you were wrong in your statements.


> He was with A in the first encountered and they were not out numbered in that one. And he barely make it alive. You claimed that he's near Madara's level, do you think Madara would be near his death by those two? Please!


A fucking _ambush_ where two of the opponents could wield weapons that were basically one hit kills without any consequence. Yeah, in that situation if Madara became cocky he would have been killed or sealed. Hell the fact of the matter is they killed the Second Raikage and forced Tobirama to retreat from the battle.



> he's talking about being superior to BOTH, not Tobirama. It was stated several times BY MADARA HIMSELF. That only Hashirama can do that from their time. Perhaps you want to reread the manga with Dan's statement, Madara's statement to the Gokage, Madara's statement to Hashi in the flashback.


Madara said Tobirama was close to his power. Not that Tobirama was stronger than him or could stop him. You are just so intellectually dishonest you don't want to admit it.



> There is a reason to why he putted Hashirama in their.
> also, Tobirama stated that it's near his full power.


And Madara implied that if they were at full power, Madara wouldn't have been able to easily defeat them. Its because they were brought back at NOT their full power he had an easy time and that there was now a gulf between their powers.


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2014)

Even though I am bored now, I guess I'll give it a try. 


> =SuperSaiyaMan12;52554171]Its not his fighting style to do so? He _marks an ordinary kunai to teleport to it while fighting Rinnegan Madara._ Tobirama is a shrewd, strategic man, you act like he's an idiot who wouldn't do something he does normally just because you hate Tobirama.


Dude, Tobirama did not use such thing the entire battle, except for one time against Madara. If that was his style, why in God's name did he not use at all against Obito? Why were his seals on the ground the whole times with no Kunais? 


> Wait, a PRECISION suiton attack that can cut up the fucking Shinju's roots is not impressive? Tobirama using an attack that is not only precise, but can cut like a Futon isn't impressive (remember how Kisame reacted to Killer Bee using Raiton for a Futon effect, same principle)? So much cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty here.


Those roots were cut down by regular swords
Link removed
How on God's grean earth does cutting them mean that it's impressive to such a degree? 
There is no proof that its anything better than Sasuke's legendary sword powered by Chidori! 


> The manga and the databook say Tobirama is the best Suiton user to ever live. Sorry, canon > your downplay.


Good. So, I believe you have this manga scan or Databook entry? 
Go ahead, and let us see your honesty! Please, bring this scan and Databook, so we can end this debate. 

Little hint: They do not exist. 


> Tobirama and the reincarnated Hokage were part of the strongest fighters on the field. YOU? You think he's weaker than Darui when the manga explicitly says AND displays his power is far beyond it. You're so intellectually dishonest you will downplay Tobirama to the point where you disregard ALL his performance and say he's weak as shit! This is what is pissing me off Hussain, you're so dishonest you can't even admit that a character may be as strong or stronger than Minato. You even grudgingly admit that Hashirama is stronger than Minato.


Tobirama was defeated by kin and gin. The manga showed that Darui defeated them. Whether you like it or not that what happened. And since your talking about feat, then I guess you can prove how Tobirama can take A down, so go ahead. 


> *Darui explicitly states that Kinkaku and Ginkaku were fighting that way specifically because they were Edo Tensei.* They can let themselves be damaged...so they can kick any severed limps with the Sacred Tools on an opponent (which is what happened).



Interesting. May you give me this scan please?
Or, which chapter was it?  


> Its lying since you're ignoring stuff. Ignoring that there were 18 other elite Shinobi with Kinkaku and Ginkaku. Downplaying Kinkaku and Ginkaku to the point of absurdity because you don't want Tobirama to have been beaten by extremely strong opponents (which is how the manga fucking treated them). You're so intellectually dishonest you lie about feats and twist power statements away from what you DO not like. You don't debate here Hussain, if you did you would admit you were wrong in your statements.


That's cool and all, we can discuss that after you provide the scans you claim above. 



> A fucking _ambush_ where two of the opponents could wield weapons that were basically one hit kills without any consequence. Yeah, in that situation if Madara became cocky he would have been killed or sealed. Hell the fact of the matter is they killed the Second Raikage and forced Tobirama to retreat from the battle.


Tobirama is a sensor. Also, they defeated him another time as well. 




> Madara said Tobirama was close to his power. Not that Tobirama was stronger than him or could stop him. You are just so intellectually dishonest you don't want to admit it.



Yeah, everyone are being dishonest, and all people hate Tobirama. 

Except for you of course. Such Godly neutrality & fairness.  


> And Madara implied that if they were at full power, Madara wouldn't have been able to easily defeat them. Its because they were brought back at NOT their full power he had an easy time and that there was now a gulf between their powers.


yeah, because that little bit they were lacking will obviously change their level several tiers.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 28, 2014)

Wow loooool. People still believe Tobirama is e freakiest water style user to ever live.

That databook statement does not exist anywhere. But I'll wait for someone to post it.


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2014)

The problem that they keep saying that nonsense for goddamn YEARS! 
And all of that shit is only based on the ANBU's statement that its "incredible" that Tobirama used a jutsu
with no water source, which was retconned to begin with.


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## Arles Celes (Dec 28, 2014)

Too bad that Kishi did not give him some huge jutsu like bijuudama or whatever explosion that does not have to risk killing him too.

A powerful wind attack would be good but he does not have one. A fuinjutsu would be great too but again he lacks one as far as we know. He did not show channeling chakra through his blade(though I guess a guy of his caliber could but only wind based one could work).

The one thing I wonder is how did Kin and Gin die as they stated to have "wiped the floor with Tobirama" so they couldn't die with him and boast like that. Did the DB answer something about that already?


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2014)

I don't think Kishi cares to tell us about every death of a character and how it happened honestly. The Databook did not mention anything about their death.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 28, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Dude, Tobirama did not use such thing the entire battle, except for one time against Madara. If that was his style, why in God's name did he not use at all against Obito? Why were his seals on the ground the whole times with no Kunais?


Tobirama marks a kunai and fights Madara. And Minato had already pre-made Hiraishin Kunai so he didn't need to use it before. He can do it, and he will do it.


> Those roots were cut down by regular swords
> *Madara was blitzed by Lightened Ay*
> How on God's grean earth does cutting them mean that it's impressive to such a degree?
> There is no proof that its anything better than Sasuke's legendary sword powered by Chidori!


Way to ignore Mifune used chakra around his blade to increase its cutting power AND that he was powered up by Naruto's Version 1 cloak. Tobirama creates a high-pressure Suiton without any enhancement that severs multiple roots and branches from the Shinju without slowing down. You DO know what 'high pressure' means right? 


> Good. So, I believe you have this manga scan or Databook entry?
> Go ahead, and let us see your honesty! Please, bring this scan and Databook, so we can end this debate.
> 
> Little hint: They do not exist.





> Nidaime Hokage (二代目火影, Second Fire Shadow)
> Konoha, Hokage
> 
> It's been a while ...Saru*...
> ...


Superior or master ninjutsu user. And only you really seem to think his suitons are weak.


> Tobirama was defeated by kin and gin. The manga showed that Darui defeated them. Whether you like it or not that what happened. And since your talking about feat, then I guess you can prove how Tobirama can take A down, so go ahead.


Correction: Ginkaku was defeated by the tools, not by Darui. Darui was _in the process of being sealed_ and was effectively defeated until his word changed. Forgot that moment. Ginkaku got sealed into his own weapon. And Kinkaku was defeated by Divisions 1, 2, 4, and 5, Team Ino-Shika-Cho, Darui, AND the Kohaku no Johei. So please don't act like Darui won on his own when he had a lot of help.



> Interesting. May you give me this scan please?
> Or, which chapter was it?
> 
> That's cool and all, we can discuss that after you provide the scans you claim above.


Kinkaku let his arm be severed by Darui so he could kick it onto him while Ginkaku distracted him with Samui to draw out his Kotodama. Then regenerates and attacks without Darui being able to defend himself.

Quite clear they were using their Edo Tensei bodies to gain an advantage.


> Tobirama is a sensor. Also, they defeated him another time as well.


Tobirama can turn his sensing off and on Hussain. He had no reason to keep it active during a diplomatic summit.

And the _Kinkaku Force_ defeated him. Not Kinkaku and Ginkaku on their own. There were 18 other elite ninja there. Way to ignore that.



> Yeah, everyone are being dishonest, and all people hate Tobirama.
> 
> Except for you of course. Such Godly neutrality & fairness.
> 
> yeah, because that little bit they were lacking will obviously change their level several tiers.


I'm addressing your intellectual dishonesty. If you honestly claim Tobirama is weaker than fucking Darui and ignore how the Kinkaku and Ginkaku battle even WENT, it just shows that you have put a lot of cognitive dissonance into everything.


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2014)

> =SuperSaiyaMan12;52560940]Tobirama marks a kunai and fights Madara. And Minato had already pre-made Hiraishin Kunai so he didn't need to use it before. He can do it, and he will do it.



No one said he can't. 
What I said it's not his fighting style to use them. Here he does not even know anything about A. Why would he turn into Minato all of a sudden? 


> Way to ignore Mifune used chakra around his blade to increase its cutting power AND that he was powered up by Naruto's Version 1 cloak. Tobirama creates a high-pressure Suiton without any enhancement that severs multiple roots and branches from the Shinju without slowing down. You DO know what 'high pressure' means right?



although that was not even showing in the manga whether he used shakra in his sword or not, his sword is still inferior to Sasuke's. Not to mention, his feat either way does not indicate that he can cut through A's armour, when A's body alone was strong enough to survive the teleportation jutsu!  




> Superior or master ninjutsu user. And only you really seem to think his suitons are weak.


Where the heck does is it say that he is the best water jutsu ever lived? 
the whole sentence is



> ←He was a superior ninjutsu user, being able to use Water Release without being near the waterside, among many other feats.



You completely ignored that. The Databook, at the time, praised him for being able to do so without a waterside near him. HOWEVER, that is RETCONNED! In part 2 ALL the characters can do so. It does not say that he is the best water jutsu that ever lived! 

saying "being" is just to explain the former sentence, and I am sure you know that, no?  



> Correction: Ginkaku was defeated by the tools, not by Darui. Darui was _in the process of being sealed_ and was effectively defeated until his word changed. Forgot that moment. Ginkaku got sealed into his own weapon. And Kinkaku was defeated by Divisions 1, 2, 4, and 5, Team Ino-Shika-Cho, Darui, AND the Kohaku no Johei. So please don't act like Darui won on his own when he had a lot of help.


Except the tools are only freaking tools. 
when Minato defeats the armies, they do not say, oh well, the Kunais are who killed those, not Minato. And so on, and so forth. It's a battle, and Darui managed to take them and use them. Tobirama was allowed to take them as well if he could! 

- The help Darui got is mainly from team 7 and Onoki's son. Ino controlled Kin, and with Darui's chakra they sealed him. Tobirama however can't do that with 6 of his students along side him. 

Also, regardless of that, Darui was fighting them equally when they were in base. And based on Kakuzu's statement, and Gin's statement, it's unlikely that they used their V2 against Tobirama. 



> Kinkaku let his arm be severed by Darui so he could kick it onto him while Ginkaku distracted him with Samui to draw out his Kotodama. Then regenerates and attacks without Darui being able to defend himself.
> 
> Quite clear they were using their Edo Tensei bodies to gain an advantage.



1- What I understand of that is Darui did not say that as you claimed he did. 
2- Kin was only taking advantage of that. However, it does not mean he intended it. He was clearly aiming to attack Darui
defend himself.
defend himself.
Darui cut his hand, and then attacked him again with his jutsu, Kin was clearly unable to avoid any. 



> Tobirama can turn his sensing off and on Hussain. He had no reason to keep it active during a diplomatic summit.
> 
> And the _Kinkaku Force_ defeated him. Not Kinkaku and Ginkaku on their own. There were 18 other elite ninja there. Way to ignore that.



- I know that he could do so, but why would he be careless on another country? Also, shouldn't that mean they had all the help they could get from the village? 

- There are 2 battles. The first one was Kin & Gin Vs Tobirama & A. The second one was the Kin Force against him. That's was when he actually died. 




> I'm addressing your intellectual dishonesty. If you honestly claim Tobirama is weaker than fucking Darui and ignore how the Kinkaku and Ginkaku battle even WENT, it just shows that you have put a lot of cognitive dissonance into everything.


Being weaker than Darui is Exaggeration. But it can't be denied that he did better than him.  As for how the battle went, again, I am only using what Kishi gave us. I can't help it if Kishi did not feel that it's important to show how they killed Tobirama.

I do not care what happened, I do care what Kishi want to tell us. Just like how I don't care what happened in Tobirama Vs Izuna either, and I do consider Tobirama superior to MS users because of that. 

Obviously, I would love to see those battles such as Minato Vs A & B, Tobirama Vs Kin & Gin..etc
but too bad, Kishi did not show them. I can't just ignore them as they have never existed.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 28, 2014)

Hussain said:


> No one said he can't.
> What I said it's not his fighting style to use them. Here he does not even know anything about A. Why would he turn into Minato all of a sudden?


Since Tobirama is as smart or smarter than Minato? Given his knowledge?



> although that was not even showing in the manga whether he used shakra in his sword or not, his sword is still inferior to Sasuke's. Not to mention, his feat either way does not indicate that he can cut through A's armour, when A's body alone was strong enough to survive the teleportation jutsu!


You DO remember the whole 'Kurama Chakra Shroud super empowers' thing do you? And again, Tobirama is a master of all five elements, his Suitons and Futons would at least be on this level given he's more powerful than Old Hiruzen.




> Where the heck does is it say that he is the best water jutsu ever lived?
> the whole sentence is


Other sources such as the fanbook. By the way Hussain, what does his Databook IV entry say?




> You completely ignored that. The Databook, at the time, praised him for being able to do so without a waterside near him. HOWEVER, that is RETCONNED! In part 2 ALL the characters can do so. It does not say that he is the best water jutsu that ever lived!
> 
> saying "being" is just to explain the former sentence, and I am sure you know that, no?


Only Part II characters able to do it without a source or any enhancement had been Mei and Kisame. Kakashi always needed a source and the armies needed to pool their own chakra to perform similar feats to Tobirama's. Not to mention Kabuto had Senjutsu to bypass the lack of water when he did it.



> Except the tools are only freaking tools.


Created by Hagoromo Otsutsuki himself. That are incredibly broken and can seal and defeat anyone.


> when Minato defeats the armies, they do not say, oh well, the Kunais are who killed those, not Minato. And so on, and so forth. It's a battle, and Darui managed to take them and use them. Tobirama was allowed to take them as well if he could!


Darui only got his hand on the Benihisago and Shichisen because _Ginkaku already thought he was sealed in the first place_!


> - The help Darui got is mainly from team 7 and Onoki's son. Ino controlled Kin, and with Darui's chakra they sealed him. Tobirama however can't do that with 6 of his students along side him.


Forgot this distraction huh?


> Also, regardless of that, Darui was fighting them equally when they were in base. And based on Kakuzu's statement, and Gin's statement, it's unlikely that they used their V2 against Tobirama.


No, Darui was struggling the entire battle. Again: He was nearly sealed!

How can you say Darui fought them 'evenly' and equally when he nearly ended up in the gourd when Kinkaku and Ginkaku hadn't even expended any effort fighting him?!



> 1- What I understand of that is Darui did not say that as you claimed he did.
> 2- Kin was only taking advantage of that. However, it does not mean he intended it. He was clearly aiming to attack Darui
> nearly sealed!
> nearly sealed!
> Darui cut his hand, and then attacked him again with his jutsu, Kin was clearly unable to avoid any.


1. Its clearly implied.
2. Of course he did. He was playing around. You honestly can't see they were taking Darui seriously at all?



> - I know that he could do so, but why would he be careless on another country? Also, shouldn't that mean they had all the help they could get from the village?


Since it was a _Alliance Summit!_ Tobirama trusted A the Second Raikage well enough to let his guard down so Kinkaku and Ginkaku could ambush both of them unawares.


> - There are 2 battles. The first one was Kin & Gin Vs Tobirama & A. The second one was the Kin Force against him. That's was when he actually died.


Exactly. To kill Tobirama Kinkaku and Ginkaku needed the help of 18 other Elite Shinobi.




> Being weaker than Darui is Exaggeration. But it can't be denied that he did better than him.  As for how the battle went, again, I am only using what Kishi gave us. I can't help it if Kishi did not feel that it's important to show how they killed Tobirama.


Tobirama's feats against Obito, as well as Izuna kind of toss that assestment out of the water. You're ignoring all the feats that Tobirama did, claiming Darui did better (when he had help, prior knowledge, and the fact you ignore he was almost sealed) while ignoring that the battle where Tobirama nearly died he was outnumbered 20 to one.


> I do not care what happened, I do care what Kishi want to tell us. Just like how I don't care what happened in Tobirama Vs Izuna either, and I do consider Tobirama superior to MS users because of that.


Of course you don't care what happened. If Kishimoto showed HOW Tobirama died and did better than Darui did despite losing, you'd have lost all your arguments. You want to use fights we never seen as evidence and ignore feats we DID see.


> Obviously, I would love to see those battles such as Minato Vs A & B, Tobirama Vs Kin & Gin..etc
> but too bad, Kishi did not show them. I can't just ignore them as they have never existed.


Yes you can ignore them: they were never shown! There's no evidence on how those battles went but you are using them to disregard Tobirama's feats.


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## Bonly (Dec 28, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only Part II characters able to do it without a source or any enhancement had been Mei and Kisame. Kakashi always needed a source and the armies needed to pool their own chakra to perform similar feats to Tobirama's. Not to mention Kabuto had Senjutsu to bypass the lack of water when he did it.



Just to jump in here Kakashi actually did a Suiton without a source as well as Yamawho doing a Suiton without a source as well as Darui using a Suiton without a source either along with fodder and what not. Hussain has a point about people being able to do Suitons without a source in part two.


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## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

I actually think A can win this. Full knowledge is a ttal advantage, and also Tobirama really can't do much to A


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]O2OhxktfpTk[/YOUTUBE]


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