# Gutts (Berserk) vs. Spiderman



## ~Shin~ (Aug 10, 2007)

Well, someone said that Gutts could easily defeat Spiderman so I was wondering what others think. Normal OBD conditions are on.

Who wins?

EDIT: Gutts has Berserker armor.


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## Wesley (Aug 10, 2007)

Probably a better match would be Captain America and Gutts.


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## Sasori (Aug 10, 2007)

Gutts dies but in the most baddass way ever.

Shortly after, Spiderman commits suicide while reflecting on his non-comparable baddassery that Gutts emits.


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## MdB (Aug 10, 2007)

More like Spiderman would die.


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## ~Shin~ (Aug 10, 2007)

Can someone give a good reason on why Spiderman will beat him so easily? Gutts has more than enough strength to slice and dice Spiderman. He also has enough durability to take his attacks and on top of this he also has sufficient reaction to react to Spiderman. I don't think this is a curbstomp for anyone.


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## Robotkiller (Aug 10, 2007)

Terrain is essential in spidey combat. In a straight on battle, fist vs fist/sword, gutts would mop the floor with parker. But if given terrain to bounce and swing from then peter takes it.


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## Pintsize (Aug 10, 2007)

> Gutts dies but in the most baddass way ever.
> 
> Shortly after, Spiderman commits suicide while reflecting on his non-comparable baddassery that Gutts emits.





I think that Gutts would win, however. Berserker makes Gutts capable of all the combat feats I've seen from spiderman, to be fair however, I haven't read all of spiderman's comics.


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## Wuzzman (Aug 10, 2007)

hmmm spiderman lifts cars....guts can't....


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## Pintsize (Aug 10, 2007)

You're right, Gutts holds up main masts. 

Though I think Spidy is still stronger than Gutts, don't say that Gutts can't lift a car


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## Sasori (Aug 10, 2007)

Gutts can probably lift/tilt a car, but not above his head in the same way Spidey can and proceed to toss it.

Beserker armour would be different though.


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## Pintsize (Aug 10, 2007)

~Shin~ said:


> Well, someone said that Gutts could easily defeat Spiderman so I was wondering what others think. Normal OBD conditions are on.
> 
> Who wins?
> 
> EDIT: Gutts has Berserker armor.



But he has Berserker armor, Mr. Puppet Man


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## Scorpio3.14 (Aug 10, 2007)

~Shin~ said:


> Can someone give a good reason on why Spiderman will beat him so easily? Gutts has more than enough strength to slice and dice Spiderman. He also has enough durability to take his attacks and on top of this he also has sufficient reaction to react to Spiderman. I don't think this is a curbstomp for anyone.



First off Spiderman is stronger then Gutts, lets get that out in the open. Gutts is a strong guy, but Spiderman is a guy who not only lifts cars, tanks, train cars, helicopters, etc... but then chucks them at people. I have trouble remember one strength feat of Gutts that puts even near the same class as Spiderman in strength.

Then there is Spiderman's vastly superior speed and agility. Spiderman dodges machine gun fire on a regular basis. Even without his spider sense he can dodge bullets with his reflexes. Throw in his spider sense and Gutts won't be able to touch him.

Then there is Spiderman's webbing. Pound for pound stronger then steel. Gutts aint gunna just be able to bust out of it easily, its going to hinder him majorly if not completely incapacitate him with enough webbing.

I will give you the fact that Gutts has some majorly insane durability and the Berserker armour allows him to keep fighting despite broken bones and stuff, but he can't keep fighting forever. As with the armour's last owner, if Gutts fights for too long and has enough bones broken (which Spiderman is easily capable of doing) he will eventually die from blood loss.

So ya, I just don't see Gutts winning this one without some PIS on his side.


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## Pintsize (Aug 10, 2007)

I feel comfortable saying that Gutts could break Spidy's webbing easily. Gutts can crack corundum.

Spidy being out of Gutts' league physically is also kinda old news. He always fights enemies that are superior to him physically.


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## earthshine (Aug 10, 2007)

spiderman picked up a truck and tossed it 2 stories into the air with little apparent effort.

somehow, I see his full power punches doing a good bit of damage to gutts.


as for speed, as others have said he dodges automatic gunfire easily, he even dodged bullets that where actually homing in on him, he avoided them for like 10 mins.



endurance is also another advantage for spidey. gutts is a tough guy who can take alot of punishment, but the thing is it still hurts him. spidey can get knocked around by the likes of hulk and not have any serious damage to show for it.


add to all this, spidersense more or less makes spidey a precog in battle, meaning gutts is not going to be hitting him anytime soon.


the fight will be violent and brutal, but it will end with spiderman standing over gutt's broken, shredded body(as we all know gutts will keep fighting untill he is hamburger)


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## ~Shin~ (Aug 10, 2007)

Scorpio3.14 said:


> First off Spiderman is stronger then Gutts, lets get that out in the open. Gutts is a strong guy, but Spiderman is a guy who not only lifts cars, tanks, train cars, helicopters, etc... but then chucks them at people. I have trouble remember one strength feat of Gutts that puts even near the same class as Spiderman in strength.



True. I never claimed that Gutts is stronger than Spidey just the fact that Gutts has enough strength to beat Spidey. Also, Gutts isn't exactly weak in terms of strength. I would presume that swinging around such a big sword for prolonged periods of time would require a lot of strength. Also stamina.



> Then there is Spiderman's vastly superior speed and agility. Spiderman dodges machine gun fire on a regular basis. Even without his spider sense he can dodge bullets with his reflexes. Throw in his spider sense and Gutts won't be able to touch him.



That "machine gun" feat was challenged in the Sasuke vs. Spiderman thread. Feel free to check it out. Most people say he doesn't dodge bullets on a consistent basis and he usually moves before the bullets are actually fired via spider sense.

But that's beside the point as I was just saying that if Spidey comes in close quarters to Gutts then he will more than likely cut him down regardless of spider sense as even spider sense has its limits.



> Then there is Spiderman's webbing. Pound for pound stronger then steel. Gutts aint gunna just be able to bust out of it easily, its going to hinder him majorly if not completely incapacitate him with enough webbing.



A weakened Berserker Gutts was capable of making some pretty deep dents on Corrundum which was said to be harder than steel so I don't think the webbing will hinder him to an extent where he would be a stationary target.



> I will give you the fact that Gutts has some majorly insane durability and the Berserker armour allows him to keep fighting despite broken bones and stuff, but he can't keep fighting forever. As with the armour's last owner, if Gutts fights for too long and has enough bones broken (which Spiderman is easily capable of doing) he will eventually die from blood loss.



I would say he can fight longer than Spidey can if Spidey just keeps webbing and trying to engage in close combat. We are talking about the same guy who went on for a whole night defeating *armored* soldiers. And that was waaay before Berserker armor.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Aug 10, 2007)

Pintsize said:


> I feel comfortable saying that Gutts could break Spidy's webbing easily. Gutts can crack corundum.
> 
> Spidy being out of Gutts' league physically is also kinda old news. He always fights enemies that are superior to him physically.



Yes, he _cracked_ Corundum. Which was was done with a giant iron sword being thrust down into it. Its *completely * different from say, his leg or sword being encased and connected to the ground by a substance stronger then steel. Its basic physics and it makes a huge difference.

and yes, Gutts fights people stronger then him and wins. But Spiderman is not only stronger, but faster, more agile, has faster reflexes, is smarter, and has precog. Spiderman is just an all around better fighter in nearly every way. Hence why Gutts won't be winning without some serious PIS.



~Shin~ said:


> True. I never claimed that Gutts is stronger than Spidey just the fact that Gutts has enough strength to beat Spidey. Also, Gutts isn't exactly weak in terms of strength. I would presume that swinging around such a big sword for prolonged periods of time would require a lot of strength. Also stamina.



Yes, Gutts is strong. I'm just saying he is weaker then Spidey and as such, Spiderman has the strength advantage to go along with his many other advantages in this fight.



~Shin~ said:


> That "machine gun" feat was challenged in the Sasuke vs. Spiderman thread. Feel free to check it out. Most people say he doesn't dodge bullets on a consistent basis and he usually moves before the bullets are actually fired via spider sense.
> 
> But that's beside the point as I was just saying that if Spidey comes in close quarters to Gutts then he will more than likely cut him down regardless of spider sense as even spider sense has its limits.



And wtf is up with Fergie...KILL HEINZE friend!!! 

Clearly after the bullet was fired. He's done it on a number of occasions. He's even caught a bullet out of mid air, you can't close your hand before the bullet is shot lol

and no, even at close range Spiderman is still waaay faster and more agile then Gutts. Even with out his spider sense his reaction speed has been said to be over 40 times a normal human.

and yes, his spider sense is not perfect, he can get hit and does. But it has always warned him of life threatening dangers. I would consider a giant iron sword that (in your words could "slice and dice Spiderman") coming at him would be such an event. I just don't see Gutts getting a good hit on Spiderman in a realistic fight. 



~Shin~ said:


> A weakened Berserker Gutts was capable of making some pretty deep dents on Corrundum which was said to be harder than steel so I don't think the webbing will hinder him to an extent where he would be a stationary target.



Again, there is a difference from cracking something with a kinetic force (which is what he did against Grunbeld, which he also broke his arm doing) and breaking something with your sheer muscle strength (which he would have to do to break out of Spiderman's webs). It really is a big difference.



~Shin~ said:


> I would say he can fight longer than Spidey can if Spidey just keeps webbing and trying to engage in close combat. We are talking about the same guy who went on for a whole night defeating *armored* soldiers. And that was waaay before Berserker armor.



Gutts fought all night against normal humans who were far below him in skill, strength, speed, etc... I'm not denying that Gutts has some insane durability and stamina, but its not endless, even with the Berserker armour. With the armour he is immune to pain and can surpass normal human limits, but he is not immune to blood loss if his bones are broken. One of Grunbeld's underling canon fodder was able to break 4-5 of Gutt's ribs in one hit with his Berserker armour on, you honestly don't think that the tank chucking Spiderman can't do the same? Gutts will definatly draw out the fight, but Spiderman's bone crushing hits will eventually lead to Gutt's fall.


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## Arishem (Aug 10, 2007)

Spiderman should be able to restrict Gutts' movements if he webs him up properly. Luke Cage couldn't get Parker's webbing off of his clenched fists, and he's a bit stronger than Spidey. It's not a stretch for him to do such with the aid of his spider sense, and then he could just pound the hell out of the Berserker armor until his opponent is hamburger.


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## Pipboy (Aug 10, 2007)

Ooooh boy, someone needs to catch up on his Berserk.   Guts without any bonus abilties granted by the Berserkers armor is a match for spiderman.   With the armor it is a terrible overkill.   Spiderman reacting to bullets is very nice and all, in fact I know his speed well, given that I introduced that scan, however that scan puts him at less than bullet speed, and Guts already deals with super sonic foes and the like.

Not to mention he has more weapons and knows how to use them better.   Guts is a better, smarter fighter who has more time swinging his sword than peter does sleeping.   He is immersed in the Hazama and his rage literally has warped reality to the point at which his strength and speed are directly impacted.   That and even before this mystic augmentation he was a peerless swordsman.   Now he is just broken... and thats without the Berserk.  

And by the by.   Corundum is the second hardest material on earth, right after diamonds, and he cracked it, something spiderman has never done.  EVER.   And yes I mean ever.   He never came close to beating that.  The armor can bite through steel and the dragonslayer can tear through it like paper.   That and his speed is enough to confound apostles whose speed is well.... impressive.

Spiderman wins?  No, spiderman loses.   One shot and he is dead, it will take him hundreds of shots he just isn't good enough to get to bring down Guts.


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## Wuzzman (Aug 10, 2007)

Gutts fought 1 supersonic fough and would have lost if the supersonic fough wasn't like a 10 year old girl.... Spiderman is not losing to gutts...spiderman has fought enemies with just as much strength as gutts villians and didn't even have  to use prep-time, and against villians/enemies who far surprased spidey in everyway, he has not only survived for long periods of time to use prep-time, but survived period against a monster like the hulk. Even a monster like rhino who runs through busy traffic like tredding water wasn't able to kill spidey.


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## EvilMoogle (Aug 10, 2007)

Just out of idle curiosity, does Gutts need to breathe?

If this is Spider-man going for the kill I would think he'd try webbing up Gutts' face.  If Gutts would need his sword to break the webbing, then wouldn't he need to swing his sword at his head?

(Standard disclaimer, I've never read Berserk! and know little about Gutts, I'm just curious how this would play out)


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## Pipboy (Aug 10, 2007)

Ten year old Girl?  Haha wow.   Next time giant flying supersonic demon moth vagina attacks me I'll be sure to remember that it at one time was a little girl.  You know before it sacrificed its parents to the Demon Gods of the world for power and vengeance.  

Hulk and Rhino are abysmally slow.   Zod the immortal is not.   All it takes is a single blow from the Dragonslayer and its over.   Done.  Finished.  Complete.   Finitio.  Cooked.  Ended.  Kaput.   Do you know how many blows its going to take spiderman?    Wait don't answer that question.  You'll get it wrong.

EDIT:   Evil Moogle, Guts breaths air and speaks language, but in the berserker armor, the part of him that breaths is a gnashing steel maw.


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## Guy Gardner (Aug 11, 2007)

Pipboy said:


> Next time *giant flying supersonic demon moth vagina* attacks me I'll be sure to remember that it at one time was a little girl.



Just as an aside to the fight (I, like Moogle, know nothing of Gutts), I never thought I'd see those words ever strung together like that. Nor do I think I ever really wanted to.  :amazed


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## Wuzzman (Aug 11, 2007)

did someone state that the hulk and rhino is slow...maybe the rhino when his is busy looking at flowers and isn't chargering at you at the speed of a rhinosaurus....but the hulk slow...yeah, I gues being able to jump square kilometers in a single bound, having cave muscles the size of tires...o well.


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## Pipboy (Aug 11, 2007)

Calf Muscles.... they are calf muscles.   And yes.   They are slow.   Strong is not the same as fast, at least not in fiction.


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

For those not entirely familiar with Berserk (and of course those haven't read Berserk at all) and/or Guts' abilities, I'm going to take a crack at it. For your reading convenience I've split these into four categories. In addition, I'm going to do this in chronological order to demonstrate Guts' ongoing progression.

*Power*
*Pre-Eclipse : Age 18*
Guts easily destroying a huge iron morning star:


Guts exchanging blows with General Boscogne:



*Pre-Eclipse : Age 19*
Exchanging blows with Wyald and Wyald feats:


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

*Post-Eclipse : Ages 20-21*




Random Apostle encounter:



Zodd encounter and Zodd feat (one of many that I might dredge up later):



Serpico encounter:


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

*Berserker Armor*
Grunbeld encounter:
Before:

After:







Everyone's favorite:


Encounter with main mast of a galleon:


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

*Speed*
*Pre-Eclipse : Age 18*
Dealing with crossbow bolts:



Fighting with General Boscogne:


*Pre-Eclipse : Age 19*
Fighting with Wyald:


*Post Eclipse : Ages 20-21*
Apostle encounter:


Apostle encounter:


Serpico encounter:


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

Fighting and beating a super-sonic speed opponent:




*Berserker Armor*
Grunbeld encounter:


*Durability*
(Yes this subject is like beating a dead horse, but nonetheless, here are a few choice moments)

Encounter with Lord Mozgus:





Encounter with Whale Demon:


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

*Battle Wits and Skill*


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## Red (Aug 11, 2007)

Spidey wins, I wont rehash what other have already stated in the thread.


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## ~Shin~ (Aug 11, 2007)

Scorpio3.14 said:


> lol @ Arse and Bernie...:rofl, I really hate this guy but thats why its funny
> 
> Clearly after the bullet was fired. He's done it on a number of occasions. He's even caught a bullet out of mid air, you can't close your hand before the bullet is shot lol



It was addressed in the other thread that Spidey's reaction isn't consistent with that said feat. In actual combat, he actually gets hit by people's fists or kicks which are nowhere near the velocity of a bullet.

About the catching the bullet, I don't know much about it but I heard people say that he needed to concentrate heavily for that and duplicating such a feat in combat was something beyond him.



> and no, even at close range Spiderman is still waaay faster and more agile then Gutts. Even with out his spider sense his reaction speed has been said to be over 40 times a normal human.



Maybe more agile than normal Gutts. Definitely not more agile than Berserker armor Gutts. Refer to Limit Tester's scans. He was surprising an apostle and not just a normal apostle but Grunbeld who is probably top tier when it comes to apostles. 



> and yes, his spider sense is not perfect, he can get hit and does. But it has always warned him of life threatening dangers. I would consider a giant iron sword that (in your words could "slice and dice Spiderman") coming at him would be such an event. I just don't see Gutts getting a good hit on Spiderman in a realistic fight.



So are you saying that just because something is "life threatening" Spiderman would definitely dodge it via spider sense? That's not exactly logical because if we go by that then Spiderman would never die. 

Also about the speed of Gutts's slashes, it was fast enough to keep up with Zodd's blows. Not to mention, one of the kids in the Black Hawks could barely see their sword slashes when Gutts and Zodd fought on the Hanging Hill.




> Again, there is a difference from cracking something with a kinetic force (which is what he did against Grunbeld, which he also broke his arm doing) and breaking something with your sheer muscle strength (which he would have to do to break out of Spiderman's webs). It really is a big difference.



He could more than easily just ram the sword right into the web and break it if necessary. Or just slice it apart considering Pre-Apocalypse Gutts was slicing through steel armors like butter.




> Gutts fought all night against normal humans who were far below him in skill, strength, speed, etc... I'm not denying that Gutts has some insane durability and stamina, but its not endless, even with the Berserker armour. With the armour he is immune to pain and can surpass normal human limits, but he is not immune to blood loss if his bones are broken. One of Grunbeld's underling canon fodder was able to break 4-5 of Gutt's ribs in one hit with his Berserker armour on, you honestly don't think that the tank chucking Spiderman can't do the same? Gutts will definatly draw out the fight, but Spiderman's bone crushing hits will eventually lead to Gutt's fall.



I just wanted to point out that it's greater than Spiderman's durability and stamina. In fact, I would go as far as to say considerably greater. I mean the Gutts I'm talking about was back in Golden Age without Berserker armor or the Dragonslayer. 

On what basis are you saying that someone who works under Grunbeld is exactly that weak in comparison to Spiderman? I don't know if you noticed but even normal apostles of that size are abnormally strong and they would be capable of putting quite a deep dent in steel if necessary. 

However, I do think that Spiderman's attacks would hurt Gutts but definitely not the level where he would be K.O'ed by just a few punches and kicks which Gutts has shown to dodge very easily.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Aug 11, 2007)

~Shin~ said:


> It was addressed in the other thread that Spidey's reaction isn't consistent with that said feat. In actual combat, he actually gets hit by people's fists or kicks which are nowhere near the velocity of a bullet.
> 
> About the catching the bullet, I don't know much about it but I heard people say that he needed to concentrate heavily for that and duplicating such a feat in combat was something beyond him.



Spiderman gets hit by people because in most cases a punch is less life threatening then a bullet. Spiderman's spider sense works by warning him of personal danger, the higher the degree of danger the stronger the sense is and the easier it is for Spiderman to act to it fast. 



~Shin~ said:


> Maybe more agile than normal Gutts. Definitely not more agile than Berserker armor Gutts. Refer to Limit Tester's scans. He was surprising an apostle and not just a normal apostle but Grunbeld who is probably top tier when it comes to apostles.



Not only did I look through limit tester's scans, I've read the entire manga myself and I can safely say that Gutts does not have agility on the level of Spiderman. Gutts surprised Gunbeld because a "human" should not be able to move like that. Siperman >>>> a normal human. Gutts with his berserker armour is pretty dang fast and agile, but intill he startes weaving in and out of machine gun fire doing back flips I'm going to give Spiderman the huge edge here.



~Shin~ said:


> So are you saying that just because something is "life threatening" Spiderman would definitely dodge it via spider sense? That's not exactly logical because if we go by that then Spiderman would never die.



If he is capable of dodging it (throw a nuke at him and obviously he's not going to dodge the explosion) and it is a serious thread to his life then yes, he should be able to dodge it barring PIS. I will be the first one to say that the spider-sense is broken. Precog is very broken, even in a limited form such as the spider sense. That dosn't change the fact that Spiderman has it though. You can kill Spiderman many ways, by beating the crap out of him, building up the damage with non-life threatening blows intill he can't fight anymore then go for the kill or by throwing an attack at him that he can't possible hope to dodge or avoid, or a bunch of different ways. However, in this case, the fact that Gutts swings around a gigantic iron blade with enough force to rip Spidey in half actually works against him. Again, barring PIS I just don't see Gutts hitting him.



~Shin~ said:


> Also about the speed of Gutts's slashes, it was fast enough to keep up with Zodd's blows. Not to mention, one of the kids in the Black Hawks could barely see their sword slashes when Gutts and Zodd fought on the Hanging Hill.



Yes, Gutt's can swing his sword damn fast, I don't deny that. However, again, Spiderman's reflexes are atleast 40 times that of a normal human and thats not even factoring in the spider sense which has been said by Spiderman to allow him to view fights in slow motion, reacting to moves made by opponents before they even begin to make them. 



~Shin~ said:


> He could more than easily just ram the sword right into the web and break it if necessary. Or just slice it apart considering Pre-Apocalypse Gutts was slicing through steel armors like butter.



Ok, perhaps you arn't getting what I'm trying to say. I probably worded it weird so I will try to clarify my point.

Yes, if Spiderman where to make a web between two trees or something and Gutts swung his sword at it he would be able to rip through them, I am not saying that he is incapable of cutting his webs with his sword so lets get that straight.

Ok, now what I am saying is that, lets say Spiderman shoots webbing at Gutt's feet tangling them together (which is something Spiderman does on more then a few occasions). Is Gutts going to ram his sword into his feet to get them free? Given that is something Gutts might do given that he is Gutts , but it stills is something that will slow him down considerable. Now lets say that Spiderman desides to use a go with a wide spread webbing which cover's most of Gutt's body essentially tieing Gutts up with webbing (again, something Spiderman regullary does). How is Gutt's going to use his sword to get out of that? Or better yet, what if Gutt's loses his sword (like by, oh lets say Spiderman webbing it and pulling it away given that Spiderman is stronger then Gutts). Then how will Gutts deal with Spiderman's webbing? Or, what if Spiderman decides to do what EvilMoogle suggested and cover's Gutt's face with webbing obstructing his vision or even cutting off his air supply.

See, you can't just dismiss Spiderman's webbing because Gutt's is capable of cutting through it because there is a huge number of possibilities that Spiderman is likely to use that would make his webbing a huge hindrance for Gutts.



~Shin~ said:


> On what basis are you saying that someone who works under Grunbeld is exactly that weak in comparison to Spiderman? I don't know if you noticed but even normal apostles of that size are abnormally strong and they would be capable of putting quite a deep dent in steel if necessary.



I never said he was weak in comparison to Spiderman. I just said I didn't believe he was any stronger then Spiderman on the basis that I have trouble putting pretty much anyone from Berserk above Spiderman in strength based on manga feats. Given that, I said that Spiderman can duplicate the results of Grunbeld's canon fodder underling's attack.



~Shin~ said:


> However, I do think that Spiderman's attacks would hurt Gutts but definitely not the level where he would be K.O'ed by just a few punches and kicks which Gutts has shown to dodge very easily.



I agree, Gutts ain't falling after just a few punches and kicks from Spiderman. His insane durability and stamina combined with the Berserker armour is to great for that. However, what I did say is that after a long drawn out fight Gutts would eventually fall due to excessive broken bones and massive blood loss.


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## Pipboy (Aug 11, 2007)

You know whats 40 times faster than a human being?   Supersonic speeds.... wait... not that.... You know what moves 60 times that faster than a human being?   Supersonic speeds.

You seem to not grasp that Guts is a better fighter than Spiderman and that all it takes is one blow.   The dragon slayer would plow through spiderman like he wasn't there.   NOt only that but Guts has fought and killed more foes than spiderman has eaten breafasts.   He has his cannon, bombs, knives, crossbow and his sword and all he needs is to make ONE blow connect.

Combined with his superhuman speed and strength and skill and the fact that no matter how many bones he breaks the armor will pin them right back into place and the fact that in the armor he will fight till he is consumed by the armor..... no this is a simple fight.


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## earthshine (Aug 11, 2007)

first off, the bug girl thing is meaningless.


wanna know why?


because he was not fighting her on equal terms. he even commented on not even being able ro see her when she moved, much less move at that speed himself.


in fact, to even hit her he had to let her stab him, because, even as big as she was, she was too fast for him to hit. only thing could do was hold up his sword to block, and then let her grab him so that he could negate the massive speed gap.



on the other hand, spiderman dodges automatic gunfire all the time, and in fact can actually see the bullets coming at him, have time to think on it, then react to them before they even get to him.


he dodged bullets that where homing in on him many times over, even when they where only inches away from him at some points. in fact, they never even touched him untill he himself decided to stop and take them(where it also showed the fact that he could not only see them coming clear as day, he even had enough time to time to think about it first, then react).



as for spiderman needing many punches: wtf are you people smoking?


spiderman once made a giant web net, had 2 full size cars and a metal covered man in it, then with ONE ARM, lifted it, and with the other web swung down the street.


he was holding all that weight up with only the arm holding the webline.



jus because spiderman does not show off strength feats on humans does not mean he can't do them. gutts, for all his power, is still perfectly able to be hurt by mundane things like arrows or swords swung by normal humans.


now, spiderman could rip a man in half like they where made of wet tissue paper, and gutts, who can be hurt by such mundane things as arrows and swords, is somehow immune to this?


a full power punch from an all out spiderman would break gutts like a cheap toy. people seem to be confusing gutts with the hulk.


gutts has not shown the ability to tank even weak attacks like arrows or swords being swung by ordinay human men, yet he can take a punch from a guy who can toss trucks into the air like it was nothing, knock over train cars by flicking them, and lift 2 full sized cars with one arm and go swinging down the street with them?



yea, okay then.


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

Scorpio3.14 said:


> Spiderman gets hit by people because in most cases a punch is less life threatening then a bullet. Spiderman's spider sense works by warning him of personal danger, the higher the degree of danger the stronger the sense is and the easier it is for Spiderman to act to it fast.



Spidey sense would be going off so much against Guts that he literally wouldn't know what to do. Guts has no less than 5 weapons that can deal serious damage to Spiderman, three of which would deal critical damage( 6 if he is in the armor).




> Not only did I look through limit tester's scans, I've read the entire manga myself and I can safely say that Gutts does not have agility on the level of Spiderman. Gutts surprised Gunbeld because a "human" should not be able to move like that. Siperman >>>> a normal human. Gutts with his berserker armour is pretty dang fast and agile, but intill he startes weaving in and out of machine gun fire doing back flips I'm going to give Spiderman the huge edge here.



Gutts surpassed human level somewhere between his 15th and 18th birthday. You should have noticed that as well when you read the manga. Spiderman weaves in and out of machine gun fire because of the spider sense. In addition, the people he is fighting have terrible aim for the most part and the bullets travel in a linear manner. But what does Spiderman do when there is a giant doomsword tracking his every motion? Or a miniature cannon, bombs, repeating crossbow, or throwing knifes to follow up this giant doomsword?



> If he is capable of dodging it (throw a nuke at him and obviously he's not going to dodge the explosion) and it is a serious thread to his life then yes, he should be able to dodge it barring PIS. I will be the first one to say that the spider-sense is broken. Precog is very broken, even in a limited form such as the spider sense. That dosn't change the fact that Spiderman has it though. You can kill Spiderman many ways, by beating the crap out of him, building up the damage with non-life threatening blows intill he can't fight anymore then go for the kill or by throwing an attack at him that he can't possible hope to dodge or avoid, or a bunch of different ways. However, in this case, the fact that Gutts swings around a gigantic iron blade with enough force to rip Spidey in half actually works against him. Again, barring PIS I just don't see Gutts hitting him.



Again, giant tracking doomsword is different than bullets. Guts before berserk armor was fast enough to catch Spiderman, he can do it with ease in it.




> Yes, Gutt's can swing his sword damn fast, I don't deny that. However, again, Spiderman's reflexes are atleast 40 times that of a normal human and thats not even factoring in the spider sense which has been said by Spiderman to allow him to view fights in slow motion, reacting to moves made by opponents before they even begin to make them.



Guts was swinging his sword so fast before the eclipse that humans could not see it, he then followed suit with the massive dragonslayer after the eclipse in his second encounter. I'm not sure you understand the amount of speed required to swing a sword that large and not be seen by human eyes. Guts fought and beat a super-sonic opponent (yes... this is faster than anyone spiderman has ever beaten, FL not included), and that was 16 volumes back in the manga. AND it didn't involve the berserker armor which is a ridiculous boost to his speed.



> Ok, perhaps you arn't getting what I'm trying to say. I probably worded it weird so I will try to clarify my point.
> 
> Yes, if Spiderman where to make a web between two trees or something and Gutts swung his sword at it he would be able to rip through them, I am not saying that he is incapable of cutting his webs with his sword so lets get that straight.
> 
> ...



It's almost like this type of situation has never been dealt with in the manga. Oh wait. Guts was still very capable of killing Serpico even after going through several pillars and not being able to get full swing speed. Oh and it's not like he could just bite/rip his way through the web in his armor.



> I never said he was weak in comparison to Spiderman. I just said I didn't believe he was any stronger then Spiderman on the basis that I have trouble putting pretty much anyone from Berserk above Spiderman in strength based on manga feats. Given that, I said that Spiderman can duplicate the results of Grunbeld's canon fodder underling's attack.



He is weaker before berserker armor and stronger than Spiderman after berserker armor. Unless of course you _really_ think that Apostle Grunbeld is weaker The Rhino. But that would be retarded.




> I agree, Gutts ain't falling after just a few punches and kicks from Spiderman. His insane durability and stamina combined with the Berserker armour is to great for that. However, what I did say is that after a long drawn out fight Gutts would eventually fall due to excessive broken bones and massive blood loss.



Guts has of course been fighting opponents as strong or stronger than Spiderman for almost the entirety of the manga.In fact in one of the scans I just posted, he actually takes an attack from a whale demon that knocked him up through a building. And to what effect? Oh yeah... it was merely a tactic to maneuver on top of the demon and he was barely hurt. I doubt that Guts would be falling until he took a *shitload* of punches. But that isn't going to happen, because the battle will be over well before that happens. Guts has far too many weapons that will kill spiderman. Not to mention he uses them very effectively. I also have no doubt that Guts has far more combat experience and is generally better skilled and smarter in combat.


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## Wuzzman (Aug 11, 2007)

spiderman always holds back when he hits people...other wise he would be a mass murder. You talking about punches that would shatter like glass bones.


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## Pipboy (Aug 11, 2007)

My IQ drops perceptibly every time you post.   Spiderman doesn't pull his punches enough for that to matter.


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## Wuzzman (Aug 11, 2007)

hm...my iq drops by degrees of ten everytime you post...there is no way that spiderman doesn't do that much damage considering who he  seriously harms when he throws a punch......


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## earthshine (Aug 11, 2007)

> My IQ drops perceptibly every time you post. Spiderman doesn't pull his punches enough for that to matter.




I think your IQ may have dropped a little too much at this point.



spiderman pulls more punches then he horws at full power.


he beats on street level people all the time, and if he was using his full power on then, they would be reduced to a bloody puddle of torn flesh and crushed bone.


he MASSIVELY holds back most of the time. that or you are saying normal humans can take serious punches from a guy who can put 2 cars into a sack and carry it off with one arm while web slinging down the street.


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## ~Shin~ (Aug 11, 2007)

Earthshine, I highly suggest reading Berserk again. Because Gutts takes hits from apostles that will fuck up steel and gets back up still capable of fighting. That's normal Gutts for you. The Gutts without an armor that's hard as corrundum. So no Spiderman's hits isn't anything he hasn't experienced in his lifetime.

@Scorpio, I'll get back to your post. Just not right now (I have personal matters)


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## Segan (Aug 11, 2007)

Woah, my favorite character against a Marvel superhero.

I won't discuss, who would win, but I would like to say something about Spidey's web:

It's not something Guts could not deflect, block, dodge or counter it with his own sword. Just to remind you that Spidey's web isn't as useful against someone like Guts like it is against street level people.

And about Spidey pulling punches: It doesn't matter. Pre-eclipse Guts took several full dead-on hits and kicks from a giant Apostle who rips trees apart and shatters boulders in one punch in human form and in monster form swings around a several foot thick tree like nothing. And Guts still continued to fight. The tree was about 8-10 long, and surely had a few tons weight.

Either you are overestimating Spidey's punching power or vastly underestimating Guts' durability.


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## Soulbadguy (Aug 11, 2007)

a nonpulled punch form spidey is Like geting hit by 3-2Ton car at 2OOmph,sure gutts was hit harder but dont forget the fact 

he's 4Otimes faster then a nomarl human(nomarl human reaction time is .6O sec).

so say if spidey push him down and wialed at his face for a 2 secs which is like 12-15 punchs at the force of the punch is like a 2 ton car moveing at 2OOmph would he live/or have the power to push spidey off?


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## Segan (Aug 11, 2007)

Sorry, but I don't agree to that interpretation. An all-out punch of Spidey equals the impact of a 3-ton car moving at over 300 km/h?

Nah...there's a vast difference in energy that is involved in both scenarios.


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

Soulbadguy said:


> a nonpulled punch form spidey is Like geting hit by 3-2Ton car at 2OOmph,sure gutts was hit harder but dont forget the fact
> 
> he's 4Otimes faster then a nomarl human(nomarl human reaction time is .6O sec).
> 
> so say if spidey push him down and wialed at his face for a 2 secs which is like 12-15 punchs at the force of the punch is like a 2 ton car moveing at 2OOmph would he live/or have the power to push spidey off?



This is inaccurate in both counts. Some of Spiderman's best feats, as in throwing two cars into a building with one hand, could be replicated by many of Guts' enemies. One direct correlation would be a feat from Zodd that I touched upon in one of my second page posts, but here it is in greater detail:




vs.

Link removed

Let's compare. Spiderman throws an object that weighs maybe 3500 kg a good 5-10 meters. Zodd throws a 30-40kg (possibly more) object several *thousand* meters.

Now Guts goes head to head to Zodd for a very long time in their second encounter. He then fights Grunbeld (a much physically stronger opponent), and is severely outclassed until he dons the berserk armor, at which point he starts to dominate strengthwise. Berserker Guts is even able to block the Apostle form of Grunbeld. And if you have read any of Berserk, you would know that the Apostle form is much much stronger. This is the apostle form of a guy who can block cannonballs.

As for the speed, the scan says it can work *up to* 40 times faster than human. Of course, Guts could probably do that before he got the Berserk Armor.


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## Havoc (Aug 11, 2007)

Wait, I still don't see how Gutts is getting out of the webbing...


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## ~Shin~ (Aug 11, 2007)

I'm wondering how Gutts would actually be hit by something like that in the first place...


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## Havoc (Aug 11, 2007)

Well, seeing as Spiderman can basically spam the area with webbing, I don't see how he wouldn't get caught.


Especially since Gutts would try to charge through it/ cut it.


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## atom (Aug 11, 2007)

Whats stopping Spidy from just webbing Gutts up and throwing him in a ocean or body of water to drown?


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Well, seeing as Spiderman can basically spam the area with webbing, I don't see how he wouldn't get caught.
> 
> 
> Especially since Gutts would try to charge through it/ cut it.



I do.









But as Shin said earlier, I doubt he would get hit in the first place.


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## Havoc (Aug 11, 2007)

LT, what were you trying to prove?

That he changes head on and will get caught with webbing?


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

Havoc said:


> LT, what were you trying to prove?
> 
> That he changes head on and will get caught with webbing?



That he passes through things tougher than steel at the same speed that he can move? That when encased in an object tougher than steel he can cut his way out with ease? That he can bite through things tougher than steel? That he has a cannon that could probably destroy spiderman's webbing? Other than that I have no idea why I would have posted all those scans. 

Maybe just because I wanted to humor your argument that he could get caught by Spiderman's web. You know, it's not that he would actually be caught in the first place.


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## Havoc (Aug 11, 2007)

Limit_Tester said:


> That he passes through things tougher than steel at the same speed that he can move? That when encased in an object tougher than steel he can cut his way out with ease? That he can bite through things tougher than steel? That he has a cannon that could probably destroy spiderman's webbing? Other than that I have no idea why I would have posted all those scans.
> 
> Maybe just because I wanted to humor your argument that he could get caught by Spiderman's web. You know, it's not that he would actually be caught in the first place.



You're funny.

You do know webs are, you know, sticky.  It's not like Spidermans webs are like steel ropes.  Gutts doesn't have the strength to rip through the webs, also it's pretty hard to swing a sword when you can't move your arms.  And yea you're right, he could probably bite through his webbing, oh wait, no he can't...the cannon was the only thing that you said that made sense, and that still is no guarantee to completely free him.

I'm not saying webbing will win this fight for Spidey, but you're just being stupid assuming that the webbing will not touch Gutts and even if it did he would rip through it like tissue paper.


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## ~Shin~ (Aug 11, 2007)

Gutts bit through corrundum so yes he won't exactly have problem with Spidey's webs.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Aug 11, 2007)

~Shin~ said:


> Gutts bit through corrundum so yes he won't exactly have problem with Spidey's webs.



When did Gutts bite through corrundum?


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 11, 2007)

Havoc said:


> You're funny.
> 
> You do know webs are, you know, sticky.  It's not like Spidermans webs are like steel ropes.  Gutts doesn't have the strength to rip through the webs, also it's pretty hard to swing a sword when you can't move your arms.  And yea you're right, he could probably bite through his webbing, oh wait, no he can't...the cannon was the only thing that you said that made sense, and that still is no guarantee to completely free him.
> 
> I'm not saying webbing will win this fight for Spidey, but you're just being stupid assuming that the webbing will not touch Gutts and even if it did he would rip through it like tissue paper.



That would be true if you were talking about normal webs, but we aren't. Spiderman's webs are for the most part pretty hard and not sticky. In case you want a description:
fluff and cute

Guts would easily be able to bite through his webbing. He proved that when he bite through an armored apostle in the scan posted above. Not to mention, Guts should have the physical strength in the berserker armor to physically tear through small amounts of webbing. He did after all have the physical strength necessary to overpower grunbeld and block his apostle form. And no. I really don't have any problem assuming that Guts would dodge his web. Refer to my posts on the second page for why.


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## Segan (Aug 12, 2007)

Spidey's web is not so fast that Guts couldn't react to it, guys. I know, it's normal to give him credit for his webs, but you are either overestimating that special ability or underestimating Guts' speed and reaction time.

Not to mention Guts can just use his dragonslayer to block the web, and once it's caught in the web, Guts can just swing his sword around and rip the web apart.


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 12, 2007)

Segan said:


> Spidey's web is not so fast that Guts couldn't react to it, guys. I know, it's normal to give him credit for his webs, but you are either overestimating that special ability or underestimating Guts' speed and reaction time.
> 
> Not to mention Guts can just use his dragonslayer to block the web, and once it's caught in the web, Guts can just swing his sword around and rip the web apart.



There are many ways that he can deal with the web that will barely slow him down. But first and foremost is his ability to dodge the attacks. Guts was able to dodge crossbow bolts at age 18, a year before the eclipse, as well as fighting at speeds not visible to the human eye. When you can do this


_before_ the Berserk Armor (as well as 10 volumes back), then it would be hard to say you couldn't dodge Spiderman's webs. People often seem to forget just how agile Guts is in addition to his super-human speed.


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## Segan (Aug 12, 2007)

Yeah. Usually Guts fights like he's an armored tank with an ultra-strong missile weapon. That makes most people think he's isn't agile at all.

But if you look at how he handled Mozgus' adepts, after they turned into pseudo Apostles, one will realize that despite his equipment he's one of the most agile people in Berserk, along with Serpico. Like he cut off the arm of the chain guy who was flying in midair at that moment. He just doesn't do it too often, because his style is much more straightforward.


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## Havoc (Aug 12, 2007)

I didn't say Gutts was unable to dodge the webbing, I said he wouldn't try to.  Oh and LT, Spideys webbing is organic now, so that description is no longer valid.  Gutts would try to push through the webbing or cut it, that would either get him caught or slow him down.


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## Segan (Aug 12, 2007)

Why wouldn't Guts try to? You think he's some stupid newbie at the arcade? He will either dodge or block the web...


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## ~Shin~ (Aug 12, 2007)

Scorpio3.14 said:


> When did Gutts bite through corrundum?



Against Grunbeld. Though I'm not going to lie and say he completely bit through it but he went in pretty deep. (This is with Berserker armor)


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## Segan (Aug 12, 2007)

No, Guts didn't bite Grunbeld at all. That was the insectoid Apostle he bit. Though, to bite off a part of an insect's exoskeleton that big isn't something to sneeze at either.


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## Havoc (Aug 12, 2007)

Segan said:


> Why wouldn't Guts try to? You think he's some stupid newbie at the arcade? He will either dodge or *block the web*...



Exactly my point, blocking the web wouldn't be a good idea.


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## Segan (Aug 12, 2007)

And why? Guts definitely has the strength to rip the web apart once the sword is caught.


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## Havoc (Aug 12, 2007)

Segan said:


> And why? Guts definitely has the strength to rip the web apart once the sword is caught.



Except the web has held stronger people.

Exactly how strong do you think Gutts is on class1-100 scale?


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## Sasori (Aug 12, 2007)

Over 9000, obviously.


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 12, 2007)

Havoc said:


> I didn't say Gutts was unable to dodge the webbing, I said he wouldn't try to.  Oh and LT, Spideys webbing is organic now, so that description is no longer valid.  Gutts would try to push through the webbing or cut it, that would either get him caught or slow him down.



Oh then the tensile strength description must be invalid now too considering that was before the description of the webbing. 

You also seem to think that for some reason Berserker Guts feels the unstoppable urge to tank everything that comes his way. Besides that being blatantly false, the only time that he does in fact "tank" an attack it is with his sword in front of him. Of course, Berserker Guts does in fact dodge attacks and seeing as how he still retains battle wits, there is no reason to think he wouldn't dodge suspicious as hell webbing, no doubt from some crazy spider apostle. That being said, assuming Guts doesn't dodge the webbing with ease, the best Spiderman could hope for is hitting the Dragonslayer with a pitiful amount of web. No more than a slight incovenience for a berserker Guts. That would of course expose the properties of the webbing, thus invalidating it as a tactic.


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## Havoc (Aug 12, 2007)

Limit_Tester said:


> *Oh then the tensile strength description must be invalid now too considering that was before the description of the webbing. *
> 
> You also seem to think that for some reason Berserker Guts feels the unstoppable urge to tank everything that comes his way. Besides that being blatantly false, the only time that he does in fact "tank" an attack it is with his sword in front of him. Of course, Berserker Guts does in fact dodge attacks and seeing as how he still retains battle wits, there is no reason to think he wouldn't dodge suspicious as hell webbing, no doubt from some crazy spider apostle. That being said, assuming Guts doesn't dodge the webbing with ease, the best Spiderman could hope for is hitting the Dragonslayer with a pitiful amount of web. No more than a slight incovenience for a berserker Guts. That would of course expose the properties of the webbing, thus invalidating it as a tactic.



Yea, you're right, his webbing is stronger now.

I'm up to date with Berserk, but I'm not a fanboy like some people in this thread.  

Honestly I don't know who would win, it's just stupid to think Gutts would curbstomp Spidey, which apparently you think.  Gutts would try to charge at Spidey like he does many times in fights, especially if the fight goes on for awhile and the Berserker armor starts to take over.  In my opinion I think Gutts will definitely get hit with webbing, but that alone wont give Spidey the win.

It's really no point to keep arguing with you because you think Gutts is unstoppable.


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 12, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Yea, you're right, his webbing is stronger now.
> 
> I'm up to date with Berserk, but I'm not a fanboy like some people in this thread.
> 
> ...



Ah... a classic. The fanboy defense. I guess we are done here now?

I guess it must be the fanboy in me who thinks that because Guts has a counter to every weapon that Spiderman has, as well as a weapon that literally will kill him in one hit in most any location(and several others that will inflict serious damage), as well as the fact that Guts is far faster than any opponent Spiderman has ever faced, and the fact that he has fought opponents as strong and stronger than Spiderman for most of the manga, and the fact that he is now stronger than Spiderman in the Berserker Armor, and the fact that he can tank more damage than Spiderman can produce, as well battle wits, experience and agility to compete evenly. Yes, that must be the fanboy in me. It must also be the fanboy in me that made me create a huge run-on sentence.

In related news, you have yet to make an argument that hasn't been destroyed by a barrage of evidence. And any other supporters for Spiderman have conveniently left already.


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## Havoc (Aug 12, 2007)

You said Gutts could rip his webbing, I asked you what class level he would be...got no answer...

I said Gutts could dodge the webbing, but most likely would not, you says he dodges all the time...not true

I was never saying Spiderman was on the winning side, I was saying it wouldn't be a curbstomp, I've never changed that...


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 12, 2007)

Havoc said:


> You said Gutts could rip his webbing, I asked you what class level he would be...got no answer...



Let's review what actually was written. I believe my exact words were:


> Not to mention, Guts should have the physical strength in the berserker armor to physically tear through small amounts of webbing.



And I stick by that. He has physical strength of class 12-20 in the berserk armor, depending on the situation. It is afterall fueled by rage.



> I said Gutts could dodge the webbing, but most likely would not, you says he dodges all the time...not true



You said:


> Wait, I still don't see how Gutts is getting out of the webbing...



I said:


Limit_Tester said:


> There are many ways that he can deal with the web that will barely slow him down. But first and foremost is his ability to dodge the attacks. Guts was able to dodge crossbow bolts at age 18, a year before the eclipse, as well as fighting at speeds not visible to the human eye. When you can do this
> 
> 
> _before_ the Berserk Armor (as well as 10 volumes back), then it would be hard to say you couldn't dodge Spiderman's webs. People often seem to forget just how agile Guts is in addition to his super-human speed.



You then responded by saying that he wouldn't dodge the web and I responded by saying:


> Of course, Berserker Guts does in fact dodge attacks and seeing as how he still retains battle wits, there is no reason to think he wouldn't dodge suspicious as hell webbing, no doubt from some crazy spider apostle.



You of course never mentioned anything about Guts being able to dodge the webbing, just that he wouldn't try to. Oh and a vague "I never said he couldn't." 



> I was never saying Spiderman was on the winning side, I was saying it wouldn't be a curbstomp, I've never changed that...



And again with the vague answers.... No. You just implied that Guts would be caught in Spiderman's web and would have no way to get out. I responded by detailing the ways he could theoretically get out, but more importantly why he wouldn't be hit in the first place.


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## Segan (Aug 12, 2007)

Well...as for Guts' strength class:

He held up a ship mast of maybe 10 meters length and 1 meter diameter. I would estimate his strength class at least up to 5 tons and more. But that only accounts his pure physical strength.
With his dragonslayer, the effective destructive power would be multiple times his strength class.


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## Havoc (Aug 12, 2007)

Limit_Tester said:


> Let's review what actually was written. I believe my exact words were:
> 
> 
> And I stick by that. He has physical strength of class 12-20 in the berserk armor, depending on the situation. It is afterall fueled by rage.
> ...




I always said Gutts would charge head on instead of trying to dodge, which was why I thought he would get caught in webbing.  Next time actually quote my posts.  Class12-20 would not be strong enough to get out of the webbing.  And I agreed that his cannon would be a way for him to escape the webbing.

Again, actually quote/read what I actually posted.


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## Limit_Tester (Aug 12, 2007)

Havoc said:


> I always said Gutts would charge head on instead of trying to dodge, which was why I thought he would get caught in webbing.  Next time actually quote my posts.  Class12-20 would not be strong enough to get out of the webbing.  And I agreed that his cannon would be a way for him to escape the webbing.
> 
> Again, actually quote/read what I actually posted.



Right. Except I did actually quote your posts and my responses. I also responded to your statement that he wouldn't _try_ to dodge it. Class 12-20 is strong enough to get out of the webbing in small amounts, like I said previously. It's not like Guts is going to get trapped in a web cocoon.


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## Pipboy (Aug 13, 2007)

Well stick a fork in this shit cause its done.


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