# Itachi VS kenpachi



## Revan Reborn (Apr 30, 2014)

Speed equal

Who wins


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## Hand Banana (Apr 30, 2014)

Itachi solos. LOL especially with no restrictions.


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## Katou (Apr 30, 2014)

itachi fast breaks


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 30, 2014)

itachi solos


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Itachi vs bleach threads should have genjutsu restrictions.even with speed equal he has good chance of using one.


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## Blanco (Apr 30, 2014)

Kenpachi breaks genjutsu via zanpakuto spirit & oneshots Itachi


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## Nikushimi (Apr 30, 2014)

Itachi wins, but this is one of those anime/manga crossover confrontations I have simulated in my headcanon many, many times. 

I'm sure at the very least, Kenny would be able to raise Itachi's eyebrow a couple of times.

Itachi's much smarter, more vicious, and well-rounded than Gremmy, though; Kenny won't simply be able to get away with the whole "You can't imagine anything that can hurt me" schtick.

EDIT: Also, lol @ the people saying "Itachi solos" when he and a single opponent are the only combatants.


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## Blanco (Apr 30, 2014)

How is Itachi going to kill small-country Kenpachi?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 30, 2014)

M3 said:


> How is Itachi going to kill small-country Kenpachi?



He's island level. WIth no restrictions Itachi uses genjutsu


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## Blanco (Apr 30, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> He's island level. WIth no restrictions Itachi uses genjutsu



Can't Kenpachi's zanpakuto spirit break him out of genjutsu same way bee did?


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

M3 said:


> Can't Kenpachi's zanpakuto spirit break him out of genjutsu same way bee did?



he dosen't have any feats for that.also he dosen't have any mind fuck resistance feat afaik.


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## Blanco (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> he dosen't have any feats for that.also he dosen't have any mind fuck resistance feat afaik.



[sp][/sp]

In OBD, Reiatsu = Chakra right? Zanpakuto possess their own Reiatsu, a Zanpakuto spirit can empower the sword and lend its strength to the Shinigami who wields it. Wouldn't that 'disturb' Kenpachi's reiatsu? Lol mindfucking Kenpachi


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## Ryo Shiki (Apr 30, 2014)

Itachi wins with genjutsu or totsuka


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 30, 2014)

M3 said:


> [sp][/sp]
> 
> In OBD, Reiatsu = Chakra right? Zanpakuto possess their own Reiatsu, a Zanpakuto spirit can empower the sword and lend its strength to the Shinigami who wields it. Wouldn't that 'disturb' Kenpachi's reiatsu? Lol mindfucking Kenpachi



where are feats of them breaking Kyouka Suigetsu or some other illusion like that?


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## Gibbs (Apr 30, 2014)

How does Kenpachi break through Yata Mirror when it comes out like it inevitably will?


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## Blanco (Apr 30, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> where are feats of them breaking Kyouka Suigetsu or some other illusion like that?



They both have different weaknesses


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 30, 2014)

Step 1:Genjutsu
Step 2: Susuanoo 
Step 3: Seal Kenpachi inside the magical bottle.

Itachi solos.


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## J★J♥ (Apr 30, 2014)

Itachi pukes his guts out and dies the second battle starts. Kenpachi stands there for a while wondering what happened. Reatsu crush//


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## Blanco (Apr 30, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> How does Kenpachi break through Yata Mirror when it comes out like it inevitably will?



[sp][/sp]




We need some Kenpachi fans up in this.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 30, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Step 1:Genjutsu
> Step 2: Susuanoo
> Step 3: Seal Kenpachi inside the magical bottle.
> 
> Itachi solos.



He can't do that last one, the sword needs to piece him, which it can't


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

M3 said:


> In OBD, Reiatsu = Chakra right? Zanpakuto possess their own Reiatsu, a Zanpakuto spirit can empower the sword and lend its strength to the Shinigami who wields it. Wouldn't that 'disturb' Kenpachi's reiatsu? Lol mindfucking Kenpachi



you have show me a feat of Kenpachi's Zanpakuto doing something like that or giving Kenpachi reiatsu on it's own.


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## Blanco (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> you have show me a feat of Kenpachi's Zanpakuto doing something like that or giving Kenpachi reiatsu on it's own.



I think Shikai/Bankai counts.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 30, 2014)

It doesn't count


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## Blanco (Apr 30, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> It doesn't count



Lol so they pulled the shikai/bankai out of their own ass?


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

M3 said:


> I think Shikai/Bankai counts.



i said you have to show me a feat where Kenpachi's Zanpakuto gave him reiatsu on his own,without Kenpachi doing anything.


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## Blanco (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> i said you have to show me a feat where Kenpachi's Zanpakuto gave him reiatsu on his own,without Kenpachi doing anything.



We haven't seen his spirit yet, but why wouldn't the spirit do something if he's trapped in genjutsu?


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## Volt manta (Apr 30, 2014)

Kenpachi gets his ass whooped by Izanagi, the anti bad-ass. No record of his Zanpakuto ever helping him with anything, even if Kenoachi would allow that to happen.

*Spoiler*: __ 



He won't.


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## Hand Banana (Apr 30, 2014)

M3 said:


> I think Shikai/Bankai counts.



It would only count if he becomes fused with the sword the same way as the espadas have. otherwise itachi solos.


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

M3 said:


> We haven't seen his spirit yet, but why wouldn't the spirit do something if he's trapped in genjutsu?



do you understand what feats mean?i asked for a feat.here in OBD if a character dosen't have a feat for something,we say he can't do that.


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## Hand Banana (Apr 30, 2014)

He doesn't know what feats are tho.


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## Vice (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> he dosen't have any feats for that.also he dosen't have any mind fuck resistance feat afaik.



He mind-fucked a guy who can change reality.


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## Blanco (Apr 30, 2014)

I don't need feats I have facts

ck


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Vice said:


> He mind-fucked a guy who can change reality.



dosen't matter here.


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## Hand Banana (Apr 30, 2014)

Vice said:


> He mind-fucked a guy who can change reality.



His reality was in a physical state. itachi's genjutsu is not. Not the same thing.


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## Vice (Apr 30, 2014)

Hand Banana said:


> His reality was in a physical state. itachi's genjutsu is not. Not the same thing.



You're right, Gremmy's is more powerful.


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## Hand Banana (Apr 30, 2014)

Vice said:


> You're right, Gremmy's is more powerful.



That's subjective.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Apr 30, 2014)

Does the OBD require feats of mindfuck resistance or do the genjutsu rules apply?

If genjutsu rules apply, then his zanpakuto can arguably dispel it. After all, Zaraki's the only Bleach character with the feat of having a zanpakutou interfere with his reiatsu (vs. Ichigo) and be perceptively affected by his opponent's reiatsu (vs. Nnoitra). Add in the fact he can now hear it clear as day? A case *can* be made that his zanpakutou can alert him and break him out of genjutsu.

More importantly, even if it could break him out, this all depends on whether his zanpakuto would do it. After all, zanpakuto have proven to be moody (Yumichika) and uncooperative (Shunsui) in some cases.


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## Vice (Apr 30, 2014)

Hand Banana said:


> That's subjective.



No it isn't. Itachi's genjutsu isn't real, Gremmy literally warps reality.


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## Hand Banana (Apr 30, 2014)

Vice said:


> No it isn't. Itachi's genjutsu isn't real, Gremmy literally warps reality.



Gremmy's manifestations can be broken with physical damage equal or greater to. You would have to do the same to break itachi's genjutsu. With equal or great resistance.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 30, 2014)

M3 said:


> How is Itachi going to kill small-country Kenpachi?



What? "Small-country"? That's a new nickname.

To answer your question, he either mindfucks Kenny and fries his brain or disintegrates him with Amaterasu. The Totsuka Blade would probably get the job done, too, though I'm not sure Itachi would have much success hitting Kenny with it.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Apr 30, 2014)

... How fast was Sasuke moving to dodge Amaterasu?


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Vice said:


> No it isn't. Itachi's genjutsu isn't real, Gremmy literally warps reality.



why are you talking about Gremmy here?he is irrelevant here.


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## Vice (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> why are you talking about Gremmy here?he is irrelevant here.



Because the claim is that he has no defense against mind-fuckery after he just got done besting a literal reality-warper. Gremmy is that reality-warper.

And he laughs off Itachi's genjutsu bullshit.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 30, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> ... How fast was Sasuke moving to dodge Amaterasu?



He didn't dodge it.

He started running first, then Itachi cast Amaterasu and chased him with it and hit him. There's reason to believe Itachi was holding back from hitting Sasuke directly, too.

Itachi also cast Amaterasu at the same time as EMS Sasuke when they fought Kabuto; that same Sasuke later cast Amaterasu that Juubito blocked instead of dodging, and both Minato and Tobirama were surprised by it.

Oh, and as for the whole "Zanpakutou breaking Genjutsu" thing...that only works if the sword has extra power to lend, which we've only seen was the case with Ichigo, whose powers were still developing. And even in the event of such a phenomenon, a simple power-up isn't going to disrupt Genjutsu if it's not manipulated to do so by the one providing it, which Zanpakutou oughtn't know how to do.


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> though I'm not sure Itachi would have much success hitting Kenny with it.



well,when/if kenny is trapped in a genjutsu,Itachi can hit him with anything and everything.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 30, 2014)

Vice said:


> Because the claim is that he has no defense against mind-fuckery after he just got done besting a literal reality-warper. Gremmy is that reality-warper.



Being a reality-warper doesn't automatically make him more powerful than an illusionist/mind-rapist; guys like EU Sidious or even Aizen to keep it in the same series would fuck Gremmy up the ass.

Although Gremmy could make the products of his imagination real and conform reality to his target's belief, these things had the understandable weakness that they could also be overcome through physical superiority, which is what Kenpachi had.

When it comes to mental defenses, the guy has pretty much nothing other than the fact that he's hardcore, which isn't good enough when you're talking about someone who can torture the mind for what feels like days in a single instant. Standard Genjutsu might be something Kenny can cope with to a degree, but Tsukuyomi isn't something he can reasonably be expected to handle.

Also, Kenny didn't beat Gremmy's power; Gremmy's own power beat Gremmy.



> And he laughs off Itachi's genjutsu bullshit.



Tsukuyomi ends him.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> well,when/if kenny is trapped in a genjutsu,Itachi can hit him with anything and everything.



True 'nuff.


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## Aphelion (Apr 30, 2014)

Itachi should win with Tsukyomi.  He gets murked without it.


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## Ryo Shiki (Apr 30, 2014)

What gave Kenpachi small country durability?


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Vice said:


> Because the claim is that he has no defense against mind-fuckery after he just got done besting a literal reality-warper. Gremmy is that reality-warper.
> 
> And he laughs off Itachi's genjutsu bullshit.



defeating Gremmy dosen't give him any resistance against mind fuck.and certainly not against something like Tsukuyomi.you can't lough off genjutsu or any ability,you need to have feats for that.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Apr 30, 2014)

I'll give you the zanpakuto-genjutsu thing. It's a shaky case, to be honest.

But Tsukiyomi? How exactly is that going to GG someone who admits he lacks sanity, whose idea of a good time is getting cut up and has the most feats of shrugging off absurdly nasty physical wounds?


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## Hand Banana (Apr 30, 2014)

Ryo Shiki said:


> What gave Kenpachi small country durability?



I'm assuming the recent chapter but that's so lolable.


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Ryo Shiki said:


> What gave Kenpachi small country durability?



it's not small country level.it's just island level+.and it's due to that meteor.


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> But Tsukiyomi? How exactly is that going to GG someone who admits he lacks sanity, whose idea of a good time is getting cut up and has the most feats of shrugging off absurdly nasty physical wounds?



he will get tortured physically and mentally.in that time kenny will just stand there like a statue,and itachi will be able to hit him with amaterasu or totsuka or anything.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:
			
		

> he will get tortured physically and mentally.in that time kenny will just stand there like a statue,and itachi will be able to hit him with amaterasu or totsuka or anything.



What Tsukiyomi is this that somehow paralyses its target while leaving Itachi free to do something else?

I only remember the one he did on Kakashi. It lasted a mere instant in real-time and Kakashi survived through sheer mental fortitude without the advantages Zaraki has of a *massively* higher pain tolerance, hint of masochistic tendencies and self-admitted mental instability.


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## Dr. White (Apr 30, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> I'll give you the zanpakuto-genjutsu thing. It's a shaky case, to be honest.
> 
> But Tsukiyomi? How exactly is that going to GG someone who admits he lacks sanity, whose idea of a good time is getting cut up and has the most feats of shrugging off absurdly nasty physical wounds?



Itachi can control reality and show him things like the slaying of loved ones, the destruction of Soul society, this assuming he could dig Kenpachi's memories. Other than that Itachi could just consistenly do what Gremmy did in space to Kenpachi for 3 days, in which Kenpachi would feel mentally, or some other shit.



Kenpachi TZ said:


> What Tsukiyomi is this that somehow paralyses its target while leaving Itachi free to do something else?
> 
> I only remember the one he did on Kakashi. It lasted a mere instant in real-time and Kakashi survived through sheer mental fortitude without the advantages Zaraki has of a *massively* higher pain tolerance, hint of masochistic tendencies and self-admitted mental instability.



Itachi can use Tsukuyomi's surprise factor (the victim is disoriented in that they felt 3 days in an instant and received damage) and hit him in succession with Ama, or if Kenny's damaged enough; totsuka. 

It was hinted even before we knew Itachi wasn't evil that Itachi could have killed Kakashi, observed by kakashi himself. Itachi literally controls reality in the Tsukuyomi world similar to gremmy but it's purely a mental dimension where Itachi is more so the god than a warper. (he controls what is, unlike gremmy who imagined things into the environment, or changed the pre-existing one.)


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> What Tsukiyomi is this that somehow paralyses its target while leaving Itachi free to do something else?
> 
> I only remember the one he did on Kakashi. It lasted a mere instant in real-time and Kakashi survived through sheer mental fortitude without the advantages Zaraki has of a *massively* higher pain tolerance, hint of masochistic tendencies and self-admitted mental instability.



that Tsukuyomi lasted for 3 seconds in real-time.3 seconds is morethan enough for hypersonic+ characters.even after Tsukuyomi ends kenny will not be able to move as fast as usual,so he probably will get hit by Itachi's attacks.


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## Catalyst75 (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> it's not small country level.it's just island level+.and it's due to that meteor.



It depends on which calc you use.  It was my rendition of the calc that put Zaraki at small country+ level.

Either way, I do not recall Itachi showing anywhere near the power-level necessary to hurt someone at the level of Zaraki.  From what I last checked, not even Madara's Perfect Susanoo slash  comes anywhere close to what Zaraki did to the meteor.  

Itachi may be one of the golden boys of Naruto, but Zaraki is now at an entirely different level compared to him.

As for the deal with Genjutsu and Tsukiyomi, wouldn't Nozarashi be able to help Zaraki break out of it.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Apr 30, 2014)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> this assuming he could dig Kenpachi's memories.



Which is why I'm going to disregard this, until you have feats of him doing this against someone he knows nothing about and who isn't fodder.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> Other than that Itachi could just consistenly do what Gremmy did in space to Kenpachi for 3 days, in which Kenpachi would feel mentally, or some other shit.



Has anybody in Naruto indicated knowledge of outer space on the human body?



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> Itachi can use Tsukuyomi's surprise factor (the victim is disoriented in that they felt 3 days in an instant and received damage) and hit him in succession with Ama, or if Kenny's damaged enough; totsuka.





			
				tkpirate said:
			
		

> even after Tsukuyomi ends kenny will not be able to move as fast as usual,so he probably will get hit by Itachi's attacks.



Which I still consider bullshit. Zaraki has suffered _*actual*_ wounds the likes of which the Naruto cast hasn't seen and has never been mentally affected by any of them. You can't just scale Itachi's Tsukiyomi up to match a pain tolerance _*that isn't even present in his own verse*_.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> It was hinted even before we knew Itachi wasn't evil that Itachi could have killed Kakashi, observed by kakashi himself.



Which is still irrelevant for the same advantages I have listed before that Zaraki has over Narutoverse characters.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> Itachi literally controls reality in the Tsukuyomi world similar to gremmy but it's purely a mental dimension where Itachi is more so the god than a warper. (he controls what is, unlike gremmy who imagined things into the environment, or changed the pre-existing one.)



Good for him.



			
				tkpirate said:
			
		

> that Tsukuyomi lasted for 3 seconds in real-time.3 seconds is morethan enough for hypersonic+ characters.



I'm going to need a scan for that 3 seconds. Also, a scan proving Itachi can trap someone in Tsukiyomi and do anything else while that person is in it.


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Catalyst75 said:


> It depends on which calc you use.  It was my rendition of the calc that put Zaraki at small country+ level.
> Either way, I do not recall Itachi showing anywhere near the power-level necessary to hurt someone at the level of Zaraki.  From what I last checked, not even Madara's Perfect Susanoo slash  comes anywhere close to what Zaraki did to the meteor.
> Itachi may be one of the golden boys of Naruto, but Zaraki is now at an entirely different level compared to him.
> As for the deal with Genjutsu and Tsukiyomi, wouldn't Nozarashi be able to help Zaraki break out of it.



well,i'm talking about the accepted calc.totsuka can seal kenny,and amaterasu can probably burn him too.also Madara's PS is 1.5 teratons via powerscaling.and Nozarashi dosen't have any feat of helping kenny the same way a bijuu helps a perfect jin.


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## ShadowReaper (Apr 30, 2014)

Kenpachi overpowered Gremmy's reality warping, who far exceeds anything Itachi has shown(bar Izanami). So there's really nothing he can do to him, except for using broken Izanami and to do so he still needs some prep time.


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

@KenpachiTZ, it will take me time to search for those scans.anyway Kenpachi has never been tortured for 3 days continuously.and after such a long torture he will need some time to recover.that should give itachi enough time,and he can also hit him with another Tsukuyomi.


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## Vice (Apr 30, 2014)

Being tortured mentally for 3 days would do jack shit to Kenpachi. Be serious now.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 30, 2014)

> Vice is that guy who downplays Itachi in NBD


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## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Vice said:


> Being tortured mentally for 3 days would do jack shit to Kenpachi. Be serious now.



it's both mental and physical torture.


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## Tapion (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> it's both mental and physical torture.



Kenpachi is lunatic that welcomes pain....he'd probably be laughing all the way through.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:
			
		

> Kenpachi has never been tortured for 3 days continuously.and after such a long torture he will need some time to recover.that should give itachi enough time,and he can also hit him with another Tsukuyomi.



... I'm going to stop replying until you actually start giving evidence Tsukiyomi would leave any mental damage on a guy who has the pain tolerance/resilience, lack of sanity and masochistic personality to laugh at wounds that would kill Naruto characters many times over.


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## Dr. White (Apr 30, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Which is why I'm going to disregard this, until you have feats of him doing this against someone he knows nothing about and who isn't fodder.


Well assuming Sasuke could dig into zetsu's memories the much better Itachi can surely replicate said feat (especially since Kabuto knew Itachi could easily hypnotize Kabuto into ending ET).




> Has anybody in Naruto indicated knowledge of outer space on the human body?


Has anyone done so in bleach before this? Itachi literally has a plethora of ways to damage Kenpachi with his realm. I'm sure in the 3 days time that Itachi would keep upping his torture to make kenpachi stop laughing or enjoying it. 






> Which I still consider bullshit. Zaraki has suffered _*actual*_ wounds the likes of which the Naruto cast hasn't seen and has never been mentally affected by any of them. You can't just scale Itachi's Tsukiyomi up to match a pain tolerance _*that isn't even present in his own verse*_.


Itachi controls reality in his realm meaning he can just make his attacks severly hurt/injure kenpachi for 3 days, because Kenpachi's durability means jack shit to Tsukuyomi. Furthermore Kenpachi looked terrible as he was liqufied from the inside out, yeah he overcame it because of his physical powers, but for the stretch of time he was being attacked he was very much in pain and therefore mentally affected. Itachi can do that to him for 3 days and Kenny can't do anything unless he grows a sharingan and amazing illusion skills/ or resistance.




> Which is still irrelevant for the same advantages I have listed before that Zaraki has over Narutoverse characters.


No because your argument was Kakashi could remain intact mentally from it. That is mitigated by Itachi not really wanting to kill him, and Kakashi still being disabled for 3 days after he got hit.





> Good for him.


So you concede that inside Tsukuyomi Itachi is a god and can pretty much make anything happen, and Kenny would experience that, correct?





> I'm going to need a scan for that 3 seconds. Also, a scan proving Itachi can trap someone in Tsukiyomi and do anything else while that person is in it.


3 seconds is conservative. Itachi cast it  (right after warning Asuma/kurenai) , then we see Asuma questioning what happened as Kakashi suddenly collapsed during Itachi's talking, kakashi observes through Asuma that the attack happened instantly, despite feeling like 3 days.


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## Vice (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> it's both mental and physical torture.



It's only mental torture and it does jack shit to Kenpachi who isn't even sane, revels in pain and has survived far worse in reality than anything Itachi could do in Tsukuyomi.

For fuck's sake, Kenpachi survived being in the cold vacuum of space, it's laughable that you think Tsukuyomi would do anything to him.


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## Dr. White (Apr 30, 2014)

Also Juugo, who is literally a channel for Nature's fury, succumbed to Hebi Sauce's 3 tomoe sharingan. Juugo was  than Kenpachi (kenpachi kills in battles, he doesn' ), and


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## Kenpachi TZ (Apr 30, 2014)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> Well assuming Sasuke could dig into zetsu's memories the much better Itachi can surely replicate said feat (especially since Kabuto knew Itachi could easily hypnotize Kabuto into ending ET).



Zetsu is fodder. IIRC, Kabuto was in Izanami _and_ had a history with Kabuto.

In other words, still not enough for Itachi to dig into the memories of somebody who is a complete stranger and not fodder.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> Has anyone done so in bleach before this? Itachi literally has a plethora of ways to damage Kenpachi with his realm. I'm sure in the 3 days time that Itachi would keep upping his torture to make kenpachi stop laughing or enjoying it.



The Bleachverse is modern world. Quincy are born in that modern world. Narutoverse is not anywhere close to modern world technology to support knowledge of space.

And you still lack evidence for Itachi being capable of doing anything to someone who's pain tolerance *is higher than the verse he exists in AND arguably the highest in the Bleachverse.*



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> Itachi controls reality in his realm meaning he can just make his attacks severly hurt/injure kenpachi for 3 days, because Kenpachi's durability means jack shit to Tsukuyomi.



Show me Itachi doing this. Otherwise, this is unsubstantiated wank.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> Furthermore Kenpachi looked terrible as he was liqufied from the inside out, yeah he overcame it because of his physical powers, but for the stretch of time he was being attacked he was very much in pain and therefore mentally affected.



Even assuming that this is the one thing Zaraki cannot handle, it's still irrelevant when you can't even prove that the Narutoverse has such a knowledge of space for Itachi to do it in the first place.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> No because your argument was Kakashi could remain intact mentally from it. That is mitigated by Itachi not really wanting to kill him, and Kakashi still being disabled for 3 days after he got hit.



Did Kakashi go insane? Did he get diagnosed with PTSD? Did he cease functioning socially? No. He is, by definition, mentally intact. And so what if he got disabled for 3 days? This is during a time Kakashi would be bedridden *longer* (IIRC, a week) *just by using his Sharingan.*

In other words, whatever happened to Kakashi is of no relevance when we're dealing with someone who is *leagues* above him *and every other goddamn character in NARUTO* in terms of ability to endure pain. When are you going to understand this? Do I have to post a wall of scans of the stuff Zaraki has been hit with to get this point through?



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> So you concede that inside Tsukuyomi Itachi is a god and can pretty much make anything happen, and Kenny would experience that, correct?



Only insofar as it is reasonable given what he's shown. The stuff about him somehow altering the victim's pain response? You'll need evidence for that.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> 3 seconds is conservative. Itachi cast it here (right after warning Asuma/kurenai) , then we see Asuma questioning what happened as Kakashi suddenly collapsed during Itachi's talking, kakashi observes through Asuma that the attack happened instantly, despite feeling like 3 days.



Now you're contradicting yourself. Tsukiyomi lasted for 3 seconds in real-time yet Kakashi observes the attacked happened instantly. Which is it?

And either way, this is no proof that Kakashi can cast Tsukiyomi and then attack someone _while Tsukiyomi is still active on the target_.

Alright, that's it. Wall of scans incoming.

Do tell, how the fuck is Itachi going to bother *this guy with pain?


Spoiler:  





And no fucks are given.






Spoiler:  





And no fucks are given.



In fact, it was intentional.






Spoiler:  










Spoiler:  





He gets back up.



The only reason he didn't get back up immediately was






Spoiler:  










Spoiler:  






*


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## Dr. White (Apr 30, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Zetsu is fodder. IIRC, Kabuto was in Izanami _and_ had a history with Kabuto.
> 
> In other words, still not enough for Itachi to dig into the memories of somebody who is a complete stranger and not fodder.


tobi did it to Konan, and Kabuto even with Karins chakra control(on top of his own great chakra control) and sage chakra, needed his scalera. I understand Kabuto got caught in Izanami but I'm saying that Kabuto conceded without the scalera blocking his eyes, Itachi would have genjutsu'd him, and he is a top tier with likewise amazing durability.






> The Bleachverse is modern world. Quincy are born in that modern world. Narutoverse is not anywhere close to modern world technology to support knowledge of space.
> 
> And you still lack evidence for Itachi being capable of doing anything to someone who's pain tolerance *is higher than the verse he exists in AND arguably the highest in the Bleachverse.*


 these people know about other realms and what not, you think they don't know about space? Popular legend says Rikudo created the moon which means even back then they should have had knowledge of space.





> Show me Itachi doing this. Otherwise, this is unsubstantiated wank.


He specifically states he can control time, space, and matter; in the Tsukuyomi world. Kenpachi is made of time space, and matter therefore unless he shows amazing illusions skills or defense, will be subjected to Itachi's reality. It isn't a no limit's fallacy because he specifically does have control over the world of Tsukuyomi. KCM Naruto even told bee (two people with amazing genjutsu defense) Tsukuyomi would be a OHKO. This is reflected in the fact that Tsukuyomi is planned to hypnotize everyone into false reality.

databook description backs it up:

*Spoiler*: __ 



"Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi.* Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space;* and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished.* But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!*

*Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible.* Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a* strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands.* Some time, they will undergo the* torments of Hell,* and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a *horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem**, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! *Even a body made of iron* or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently,* the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness.* Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes."







> Even assuming that this is the one thing Zaraki cannot handle, it's still irrelevant when you can't even prove that the Narutoverse has such a knowledge of space for Itachi to do it in the first place.


They know about the moon, the moon resides in space. Madara pulled down a metoer and random fodder knew what it was, come on brah.





> Did Kakashi go insane? Did he get diagnosed with PTSD? Did he cease functioning socially? No. He is, by definition, mentally intact. And so what if he got disabled for 3 days? This is during a time Kakashi would be bedridden *longer* (IIRC, a week) *just by using his Sharingan.*


The point was he wa completely rendered unable to fight and experienced a high amount of mental trauma, it's like going into shock for 3 days. He still had chakra (he used 2 jutsu before being hit), he literally could not operate due to his trauma. So I don't know what you're getting at here.



> In other words, whatever happened to Kakashi is of no relevance when we're dealing with someone who is *leagues* above him *and every other goddamn character in NARUTO* in terms of ability to endure pain. When are you going to understand this? Do I have to post a wall of scans of the stuff Zaraki has been hit with to get this point through?


Won't matter during Tsukuyomi, durabilty is of no consequence. We have never seen anyone in bleach get tortuted for 3 days either Itachi could slice at him with Susano, burn him with Ama simeualtaneously, wile killing yourichi in front of him. Kenny will be fucked.



> Now you're contradicting yourself. Tsukiyomi lasted for 3 seconds in real-time yet Kakashi observes the attacked happened instantly. Which is it?


Hence why I said 3 seconds is conservative considering that it was seemingly instant (which is subjective especially through panel).



> And either way, this is no proof that Kakashi can cast Tsukiyomi and then attack someone _while Tsukiyomi is still active on the target_.


It doesn't matter because either way Itachi has to attack in real time/space, since the jutsu IRL last an instant he can take advantage of disorientation/shock of illusion to use Totsuka or Ama, and it goes downhill from there.

Considering SS arc Tousen caught Kenny in an illusion for sometikme Itachi should surely be able to catch him off guard. Totsuka is a fuinjutsu which once again bypasses durability (see Minato sealing Kyuubi/death god).



Kenpachi TZ said:


> snip


By repeatedly doing it while Kenpachi's restrained. Or switching it up in his 72 hour cherade and show him killing the pink haired girl, etc.


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Apr 30, 2014)

... This is getting frustrating.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> tobi did it to Konan, and Kabuto even with Karins chakra control(on top of his own great chakra control) and sage chakra, needed his scalera. I understand Kabuto got caught in Izanami but I'm saying that Kabuto conceded without the scalera blocking his eyes, Itachi would have genjutsu'd him, and he is a top tier with likewise amazing durability.



Konan was helpless. She was out of chakra by the time Obito went digging in her skull.

Also, Kabuto trying not to get genjutsu'd isn't relevant to Itachi being able to dig into his memories. Stay on topic.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> these people know about other realms and what not, you think they don't know about space? Popular legend says Rikudo created the moon which means even back then they should have had knowledge of space.



So what? Just because they have some knowledge of astronomy, just like our human race did *thousands* of years ago, doesn't mean they have a fucking clue on *what would happen to you if you were IN outer space*.

I don't know whether Kubo's depiction was accurate or not, but I know it sure as hell isn't out of place in a manga situated in our time period.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> He specifically states he can control time, space, and matter; in the Tsukuyomi world. Kenpachi is made of time space, and matter therefore unless he shows amazing illusions skills or defense, will be subjected to Itachi's reality. It isn't a no limit's fallacy because he specifically does have control over the world of Tsukuyomi.



Yes. And the databook/manga says that the Yata Mirror reflects any and all attacks. Do you see the OBD saying it can tank a planet-busting attack? 

So what if Itachi is a god in Tsukiyomi? He only gets what he has shown and unless you have some panel I don't know of, he hasn't shown to manipulate human anatomy.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> They know about the moon, the moon resides in space. Madara pulled down a metoer and random fodder knew what it was, come on brah.



Astronomers in history have had a far greater understanding of the sun, moon and stars than anybody in the Narutoverse. Doesn't mean they have any fucking clue what happens when you enter the void of space.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> The point was he wa completely rendered unable to fight and experienced a high amount of mental trauma, it's like going into shock for 3 days. He still had chakra (he used 2 jutsu before being hit), he literally could not operate due to his trauma. So I don't know what you're getting at here.



That he was mentally intact despite your claim he wasn't. 

That he was a lightweight when *using Raikiri/Sharingan would keep him in bed longer than Tsukiyomi did*.

That he is a complete and utter pussy in regards to pain tolerance when compared to any Bleach character worth their salt, nevermind the most resilient of them all.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> Won't matter during Tsukuyomi, durabilty is of no consequence. We have never seen anyone in bleach get tortuted for 3 days either Itachi could slice at him with Susano, burn him with Ama simeualtaneously, wile killing yourichi in front of him. Kenny will be fucked.



A) Reading comprehension. I said:


			
				Me said:
			
		

> in terms of ability to endure pain



B) We haven't seen anyone in Naruto getting tortured for 3 days, nevermind experiencing wounds your average Bleach character lives through. Yet Kakashi survived Tsukiyomi. In other words, this is pointless.

C) How is Itachi going to find out about... Yachiru(?) when you haven't even proved he can dig in his mind?



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> Hence why I said 3 seconds is conservative considering that it was seemingly instant (which is subjective especially through panel).



I'm going to need you to explain in simple words and great detail what you're trying to say here.



			
				Dr. White said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter because either way Itachi has to attack in real time/space, since the jutsu IRL last an instant he can take advantage of disorientation/shock of illusion to use Totsuka or Ama, and it goes downhill from there.
> 
> Considering SS arc Tousen caught Kenny in an illusion for sometikme Itachi should surely be able to catch him off guard. Totsuka is a fuinjutsu which once again bypasses durability (see Minato sealing Kyuubi/death god).



Totsuka is required to cut Kenny to seal him. I'm getting the impression from other posters that Itachi cannot cut Kenny with Totsuka given his durability. In other words, I cannot comment for sure either way as I would be arguing from ignorance.

... I'm done repeating myself about the shock/disorientation issue. I'm done.


----------



## Gunstarvillain (Apr 30, 2014)

Pure melee won't cut it against itachi ever!


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 30, 2014)

Based on what I've heard, Totsuka doesn't bypass durability, so unless there's proof it can pierce someone with triple gigaton durability, it's not going to help.


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 30, 2014)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> ..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Agmaster (Apr 30, 2014)

And with lol genjutsu being put in the box like it should....Itachi's fodder to this, non?


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 30, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Based on the scans TZ provided you can see it doesn't require said output to match one's durability when piecing. I highly doubt Tousen's sword thrust was of higher DC than SS zaraki's durability, the same with HM Zaraki' and Nnoirita. So I don't see why totsuka would have much trouble honestly.



Why do you highly doubt that?

We're talking the same guy who easily cut Grimmjow's arm off in base.

If a sword is shown to pierce him, the person thrusting has that much DC, simple as that.

Also



> Which has nothing to do with resisting genjutsu.


A common method of resisting Genjutsu is stopping your chakra flow and then applying a large surge of chakra to counteract the effects, so that's not completely true.


----------



## Agmaster (Apr 30, 2014)

Gunstarvillain said:


> Pure melee won't cut it against itachi ever!



Pace yourself.  Restrained superman only using melee without FTL speed or flight would still lose to itachi's genjutsu?  Oh, that's what this thread is.  My bad, I thought it was serious


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 30, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> Why do you highly doubt that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 30, 2014)

> Because it makes no sense for Zaraki to be able to take a straight shot from Yammy(who's hit should be > a simple thrust for Nnioriata's arm) and come back relatively unharmed.


First of all, Yammy being "the strongest espada" is extremely sketchy.  Second of all, the impact of Yammy's strikes obviously were spread over a much wider surface area than Nnoitra's arm thrust.

Also, IIRC, Unohana stated that a little bit of Kenpachi's potential was unshackled after his major fights, with Ichigo and Nnoitra, so that might have had something to do with it.



> Example Orochimaru are Totsuka and laughed it off, but it still pierced him and his mega summon.   Now if Oro got hit with Kirin, it would have wiped him off the face of the earth. We can agree Kirin > totsuka thrust in DC, right? Yet it didn't take all that for Totsuka to pierce and seal him.



I don't really understand what you're saying here.  Orochimaru clearly didn't have the durability to resist Totsuka, so it worked on him.  What's your point?



> Comparable to the amount of chakra being controlled. It isn't like people just attain a new source of chakra, it has more to do with control. she wasn't on the verge of death via chakra exhaustion.



The point is that if you only have a tiny amount of Chakra left, it's likely this technique won't be usable.  This isn't really relevant to the Kenpachi thing, but I just thought I'd point it out.


----------



## Regicide (Apr 30, 2014)

EntangledHive said:


> If a sword is shown to pierce him, the person thrusting has that much DC, simple as that.


Uhh, this isn't quite how it works.

Swords concentrate the energy of their attacks on the edge of the blade. You don't need as much destructive power to overcome someone's durability as you would by say, punching them, when using a bladed weapon to cut something.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the conversation here.


----------



## Aphelion (Apr 30, 2014)

Regicide said:


> Uhh, this isn't quite how it works.
> 
> Swords concentrate the energy of their attacks on the edge of the blade. You don't need as much destructive power to overcome someone's durability as you would by say, punching them, when using a bladed weapon to cut something.
> 
> Unless I'm misunderstanding the conversation here.



Yeah I know that, I even mentioned surface area in my next response.

The point is that you do need to still overpower the characters durability to penetrate them, regardless of the method.

There isn't any proof suggesting that totsuka possess's  the power to damage someone of Kenny's durability, even with a piercing attack.


----------



## Agmaster (Apr 30, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Becuase Superman's durability is comparable  , Kenpachi also is immune to illusions per canon, doesn't superman have illusion/mental defense?


Still too hard for itachi to break.

I don't recall supes having any particular defense to trickery besides really high stats, things mystical in base he has been known to be vulnerable to.  Er go easier target, right?  Kenpachi is a rock, he doesn't really have variation in how he solves problems, yet he has enough in the tank to just roll them over most of the time.  

Nowadays, he has a partnering spirit to let him know of genjutsu trickery in addition to his own increased energy sensitivity.  Totsuka is a maybe, as is Itachi killing the guy with overt damage...even aiming for just the jugular(i dunno dc), but you're not mindfucking this guy.  Even with enduring hell...he's BEEN enduring real hell, he just killed his childhood crush.  Dude is made of deal with it.


----------



## Lurko (Apr 30, 2014)

Boy all these Bleach threads lately they don't stop


----------



## Revan Reborn (Apr 30, 2014)

You guys forgot to add this to kennys pain durability


----------



## Iwandesu (Apr 30, 2014)

I can't believe i will say this,  but hell,why such wank about itachi?
Totsuka shouldn't be above susanno durability which is city level. It can't pierce even a sleeping shikai kenpachi unless I'm missing some new piercing dc. 
Tsukyomi is able to kill. Not only for statements, but due to most S-class genjutsu being able to insta -kill people.
still it only can kills people which were to be affected by it. Kenpachi won't be killed by mind broken, cuz he has plenty of feats that cover even the worst filler genjutsus. (Like SD post above)
Amaterasu doesn't work well at obd as far as I'm concerned so i will resign there. (why do we consider it hax)
Koto no ami is literary the only thing that can stop kenpachi.


----------



## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

wasn't the consensus here was that totsuka ignores durability?did it change?


----------



## Iwandesu (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> wasn't the consensus here was that totsuka ignores durability?did it change?


maybe Nikushimi itachi  
Never heard About it, I'm no veteran to be fair, though.
can he really soulfuck, burn and mindrape while ignoring durability and having 3 digit mach scalling ?


----------



## Gibbs (Apr 30, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> I can't believe i will say this,  but hell,why such wank about itachi?
> Totsuka shouldn't be above susanno durability which is city level. It can't pierce even a sleeping shikai kenpachi unless I'm missing some new piercing dc.
> Tsukyomi is able to kill. Not only for statements, but due to most S-class genjutsu being able to insta -kill people.
> still it only can kills people which were to be affected by it. Kenpachi won't be killed by mind broken, cuz he has plenty of feats that cover even the worst filler genjutsus. (Like SD post above)
> ...



Both Orochimaru & Nagato had no answer to the Totsuka Blade. It seals you up  in the bottle.


----------



## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

here is a scan that shows that Itachi can attack people while they are cought in his genjutsu:-http://www.mangapanda.com/93-350-10/naruto/chapter-345.html


----------



## Iwandesu (Apr 30, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Both Orochimaru & Nagato had no answer to the Totsuka Blade. It seals you up  in the bottle.


Edo Nagato never faced totsuka blade did he? Wasn't he tknj'ed.
even if could beat Edo Nagato would be nlf claiming to be able to beat kenpachi which now is more durable than him. We work with what is shown on panel.


----------



## Revan Reborn (Apr 30, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> here is a scan that shows that Itachi can attack people while they are cought in his genjutsu:-http://www.mangapanda.com/93-350-10/naruto/chapter-345.html



And Itachi can cut kenny?, if he does get sealed by his sword of totsuka, its into a jar.
Kenny cuts.


----------



## tkpirate (Apr 30, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


>



only calling his name wouldn't break him out of a genjutsu though.and it's not like they have any knowledge on genjutsu and how to break it either.


----------



## LineageCold (May 1, 2014)

Good
Fucking
Game.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Also, 'Tsukuyomi' was stated in viz translation to break spirits as also as minds. But it's not like he needs it here anyway.


----------



## Sablés (May 1, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> only calling his name wouldn't break him out of a genjutsu though.and it's not like they have any knowledge on genjutsu and how to break it either.


Note , I'm only playing DA for the case of Genjutsu against shinigami in general.

Since you clearly missed the point of the second scan, I'll explain that Zanpakuto can greatly influence the reiatsu of the wielders and given they're not directly connected to their wielder's mind, they can successfully dismantle Genjutsu. In Ichigo's case especially.





LineageCold said:


> Good
> Fucking
> Game.
> 
> ...



I'll take the words of Danzo and Obito who possess a great deal of knowledge on both the sharingan and the jinchuuriki over Kakashi anyday and they've commented solely on Itachi's Tsukuyomi being superior to Sasuke's MS in regards to length alone. [][]

As for the claim of "no cancelling it's effects?"


----------



## tkpirate (May 1, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> FYI, I'm arguing solely for DA for the case of Genjutsu against shinigami in general.
> Since you clearly missed the point of the second scan, I'll explain that Zanpakuto can greatly influence the reiatsu of the wielders and given they're not directly connected to their wielder's mind, they can successfully dismantle Genjutsu. In Ichigo's case especially.



yeah,but 1 or 2 things i don't know.can a Zanpakuto give it's wielder reiatsu on it's own,even if the wielder dosen't ask for it?and obviously a shinigami or a Zanpakuto dosen't know how to break a genjutsu.which almost everyone in narutoverse knows.


----------



## Sablés (May 1, 2014)

and can fuck their partners over if they choose. Nozarashi diminished Kenpachi's power, as stated in SS and Hollow Ichigo was doing so for an entire arc. The requirement to breaking genjutsu is *disrupting *chakra, something . And yeah, full knowledge within OBD scenarios is obviously required.

How that falls under equivalency rule, I dunno.


----------



## Lurko (May 1, 2014)

Lol at Kenny breaking out of the genjustu god's most powerful genjustu.


----------



## Sablés (May 1, 2014)

Isn't Shishui's genjutsu stronger than Itachi's anyway?


----------



## tkpirate (May 1, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> and can fuck their partners over if they choose. Nozarashi diminished Kenpachi's power, as stated in SS and Hollow Ichigo was doing so for an entire arc. The requirement to breaking genjutsu is *disrupting *chakra, something . And yeah, full knowledge within OBD scenarios is obviously required.
> 
> How that falls under equivalency rule, I dunno.



so even if they can break it,they wouldn't be able to do it because they don't have the knowledge on how to do it right?alsoThe ninja needs to stop the flow of chakra in their body, and then apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra; this is called Genjutsu Dissipation (幻術解, Genjutsu Kai). This can also be done by an unaffected ninja by applying a sudden surge of chakra into the affected person. In addition, tailed beasts can break their jinchūriki out of genjutsu in a similar fashion if they have a good enough cooperation, as seen in Killer B's case.and Kotoamatsukami is the strongest genjutsu.


----------



## 1Person (May 1, 2014)

Nozarashi probably won't try to break Kenny out of genjutsu since neither has any idea  what genjutsu is or how to dispel it.
Also tsukuyomi's been hyped to been inescapable (unless you have a sharigan and a blood relation to itachi) and even then there's gonna be a delay between activation and escape, that's plenty of time for itachi to form a counterattack.


----------



## Sablés (May 1, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> so even if they can break it,they wouldn't be able to do it because they don't have the knowledge on how to do it right?alsoThe ninja needs to stop the flow of chakra in their body, and then apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra; this is called Genjutsu Dissipation (幻術解, Genjutsu Kai). This can also be done by an unaffected ninja by applying a sudden surge of chakra into the affected person. In addition, tailed beasts can break their jinchūriki out of genjutsu in a similar fashion if they have a good enough cooperation, as seen in Killer B's case.and Kotoamatsukami is the strongest genjutsu.



More or less.



1Person said:


> Nozarashi probably won't try to break Kenny out of genjutsu since neither has any idea  what genjutsu is or how to dispel it.
> Also tsukuyomi's been hyped to been inescapable (unless you have a sharigan and a blood relation to itachi) and even then there's gonna be a delay between activation and escape, that's plenty of time for itachi to form a counterattack.






> And yeah, full knowledge within OBD scenarios is obviously required.



.....

Tsukuyomi being "inescapable" holds about as much weight as the "Only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha" nonsense. As I've stated, Danzo and Tobi note only the duration of Itachi's Tsukuyomi as being above Sasuke's regular sharingan Genjutsu.

Killer Bee broke out of Sasuke's Genjutsu nigh instantaneously and he was caught-off guard. In a full-knowledge scenario, Genjutsu will be expected.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

Good to see that genjutsu is gonna be irrelevant again.


----------



## Zuhaitz (May 1, 2014)

Let's say that Norazashi knows how to dispel the genjutsu. Let's say that It even does it. And let's say that It even does it really fast.
Even after all that, Kenpachi would still had experienced hours of torture in his mind, and I'm not talking about physical torture but psychological one. And also the instants from the moment Kenpachi fell under the genjutsu, till the moment he breaks it, Kenpachi will remain immobile and Itachi will be able to easily aim and neutralize him.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

What in the fuck would itachi's mental torture do to kenpachi.
The guy was shreded to death and revived, in succession for god knows how long.
I'm pretty sure no torture that itachi can think of would be able to even faze him.


----------



## Sablés (May 1, 2014)

Is selective reading an inherent trait of the cancerdome or something? 



> Note , I'm only playing DA for the case of Genjutsu against shinigami in general.



i couldn't give less of a fuck how Zaraki deals with this match


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

Stables denying his origins, smh.


----------



## Sablés (May 1, 2014)

That said, I am interested in how someone of Zaraki's psychology would deal with Tsukuyomi.

Course in that sense, Fujita's opinion is the only one I'm likely to listen to


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

Fujita this, fujita that.
Fuck.


----------



## Sablés (May 1, 2014)

Can you blame us when the majority of the "OBD" is filled with lemmings? Someone who can coherently and impartially () voice an astute opinion is rare. Especially in regards to the HST where few give two shits.


----------



## Zuhaitz (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> What in the fuck would itachi's mental torture do to kenpachi.
> The guy was shreded to death and revived, in succession for god knows how long.
> I'm pretty sure no torture that itachi can think of would be able to even faze him.



That's because you can only think in physical torture 

Psychological would be really effective against Kenpachi. And a single instant in the real world represents hours of torture in Kenpachi's mind.

Itachi can twist Kenpachi's sense of time and space so that when he is free from the genjutsu he'll still have troubles to realize where he is. That confusion combined with the time Kenpachi would need to break the genjutsu are more than enough time for someone like Itachi to finish a battle.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

Zuhaitz said:


> That's because you can only think in physical torture
> 
> Psychological would be really effective against Kenpachi. And a single instant in the real world represents hours of torture in Kenpachi's mind.
> 
> Itachi can twist Kenpachi's sense of time and space so that when he is free from the genjutsu he'll still have troubles to realize where he is. That confusion combined with the time Kenpachi would need to break the genjutsu are more than enough time for someone like Itachi to finish a battle.



>Implying that physical torture isn't accompanied by mental trauma.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Can you blame us when the majority of the "OBD" is filled with lemmings? Someone who can coherently and impartially () voice an astute opinion is rare. Especially in regards to the HST where few give two shits.



Implying i am not that kind of person.


----------



## tkpirate (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> The guy was shreded to death and revived,



if he was killed and then ''revived'' how dose it help him?


----------



## Vicotex (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Fujita this, fujita that.
> Fuck.



fuck you too, hence you refuse to accept the fact that zanpaktu cant free their weilders from illusion unlike peferct JIN...
#Genjutsu#GG


----------



## Gibbs (May 1, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Edo Nagato never faced totsuka blade did he? Wasn't he tknj'ed.
> even if could beat Edo Nagato would be nlf claiming to be able to beat kenpachi which now is more durable than him. We work with what is shown on panel.


Edo Nagato was sealed with the Totsuka. Itachi allowed him to have a conversation with Naruto during the sealing process.








You can continue here: 



Also, Nagato had Preta Path which means he could not absorb it/no time.


----------



## Vice (May 1, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Lol at Kenny breaking out of the genjustu god's most powerful genjustu.



What does Shisui have to do with this?


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> if he was killed and then ''revived'' how dose it help him?



I've worded it wrong.
Should have been, an inch away from death then healed fully.


----------



## Lurko (May 1, 2014)

Vice said:


> What does Shisui have to do with this?



Oops kinda forgot about him.


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## Vice (May 1, 2014)

Zuhaitz said:


> Let's say that Norazashi knows how to dispel the genjutsu. Let's say that It even does it. And let's say that It even does it really fast.
> Even after all that, Kenpachi would still had experienced hours of torture in his mind, and I'm not talking about physical torture but psychological one. And also the instants from the moment Kenpachi fell under the genjutsu, till the moment he breaks it, Kenpachi will remain immobile and Itachi will be able to easily aim and neutralize him.



Lol. Kenpachi went through this: 




and loved it. He's also durable enough to survive time in the vacuum of space. Itachi ain't got shit to mentally break this guy down. He'd survive through tsukuyomi and then ask for more.


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## Dr. White (May 1, 2014)

Vice said:


> Lol. Kenpachi went through this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And here he is going through 

Sharingan completely overides one's senses. Althout Kenpachi probably has innate defense against illusions, it isn't anywhere near as high to defend against Itachi. Just as I said Juugo was easily restrained via weaker genjutsu from a weaker user.

But lolVice


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## tkpirate (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> I've worded it wrong.
> Should have been, an inch away from death then healed fully.



even then if he was fully ''healed'' everytime,how dose it help him?and wasn't there something like kenny forgetting about his previous defeat or something?anyway it wasn't continuous torture.


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> even then if he was fully ''healed'' everytime,how dose it help him?and wasn't there something like kenny forgetting about his previous defeat or something?anyway it wasn't continuous torture.



Are you really that stupid or something? 
Him being healed doesn't mean that he will not feel the initial shock of getting melted to near death.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 1, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Fujita's opinion is the only one I'm likely to listen to


Stables x Fujita



ship it cancers


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## Dr. White (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Are you really that stupid or something?
> Him being healed doesn't mean that he will not feel the initial shock of getting melted to near death.



Ok so by your logic anyone who can laugh at 5 minutes of waterboarding will ease through 24 hours of it right?


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 1, 2014)

zenath will use *any* logic to downplay itachi or nardo 



regardless, itachi can use a plain genjutsu to conceal himself from Kenny, thus a stalemate at the least or Totsuka seal/slow Amaterasu burn at worst


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Ok so by your logic anyone who can laugh at 5 minutes of waterboarding will ease through 24 hours of it right?


Wtf is with that analogy?


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## Dr. White (May 1, 2014)

Also Itachi can dig into ken's memories and use people he loves against him as he did with Naruto being scolded by sakura(whomhe never met), and CS Sauce(which he hadn't seen yet)


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## tkpirate (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Him being healed doesn't mean that he will not feel the initial shock of getting melted to near death.



so?how dose it give him any torture resistance feat?it's not like he kept fighting in that ''melted'' state.he got fully healed everytime after some torture.


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## Dr. White (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Wtf is with that analogy?



You said just because he was healed doesn;t mean he didn't feel the initial shock of death. I'm telling you he felt it for a negligible time compared to Tsukuyomi so you using that as evidence is bullshit. Clearer?


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

Lol at anyone using kenny's love ones against him.


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## Dr. White (May 1, 2014)

lol at Zenith using logic against anyone


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> You said just because he was healed doesn;t mean he didn't feel the initial shock of death. I'm telling you he felt it for a negligible time compared to Tsukuyomi so you using that as evidence is bullshit. Clearer?



It is fucking different.
Kakashi got stabbed for 3 days non stop.
Kenny got melted to near death for days if not weeks non stop.
Him being healed doesn't mean he didn't felt being melted.
Tell me what's more fucking gruesome.


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## Dr. White (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> It is fucking different.
> Kakashi got stabbed for 3 days non stop.
> Kenny got melted to near death for days if not weeks non stop.
> Him being healed doesn't mean he didn't felt being melted.
> Tell me what's more fucking gruesome.



A.) We don't know the mechanics of her illusions, it could have been a spell, or simply killing intent. We know the user continuously feels what they experience in Tsukuyomi.
B.) Kenpachi was actively fighting, and getting injured then healed. He experienced it only for him to get healed. That is completely different from being chained down and under control of the caster. 
C.) proof that they were there for weeks?
D.) Proof should did that more than once?


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## Velocity (May 1, 2014)

Geeze... I wondered why this read had gone on for so long, then I saw Itachi's name in the title. 

You guys are _too_ obsessed with Karasu-kun. 

For what it's worth, the law of equivalency dictates that reiatsu and chakra be considered the same. Now while Zaraki should definitely be considered equivalent to Bee in chakra/reiatsu, Bleach has a rule that Naruto does not - if a Shinigami has sufficiently more powerful reiatsu than their opponent, their attacks won't work. Itachi isn't even the equivalent of Captain level when it comes to chakra/reiatsu and Zaraki is significantly stronger than even Aizen was when he was still a Shinigami. We're talking a bigger gap than the one between Grimmjow and Aizen when the latter reiatsu crushed the former.

In other words, Itachi's genjutsu would never work on Zaraki. Heck, if it weren't for Zaraki's love of a good fight he'd just reiatsu crush the kid.


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> A.) We don't know the mechanics of her illusions, it could have been a spell, or simply killing intent. We know the user continuously feels what they experience in Tsukuyomi.
> B.) Kenpachi was actively fighting, and getting injured then healed. He experienced it only for him to get healed. That is completely different from being chained down and under control of the caster.
> C.) proof that they were there for weeks?
> D.) Proof should did that more than once?


-we see him being melted then healed. 

-Second point is so fucking stupid, i'm legit feeling bad for your parents.
Are you telling me that being stabbed is by far gruesome than being put into a near death state continuously?
Even Stupidity should have a limit.

-I said for for days if not weeks.
Though we did have a timeframe.
After the stern ritters left they begin training, and they finished on the day of the attack iirc.
That's at least a week if i remember correctly.

-


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## tkpirate (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> It is fucking different.
> Kakashi got stabbed for 3 days non stop.
> Kenny got melted to near death for days if not weeks non stop.
> Him being healed doesn't mean he didn't felt being melted.
> Tell me what's more fucking gruesome.



there are some difference,Kakashi never got healed.kenny got fully healed everytime.he may or may not have the memory of his previous torture.he didn't stayed in that ''melted'' state for long time.if he would have fought the entire fight in that ''melted'' state,then it would have been a torture resistance feat.


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

Again, you're implying that some fucking how, he didn't feel being melted.


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

And the only thing that is gonna surpass knocking on deaths door, is being dead.
So i don't get your point either.


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## Vice (May 1, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> And here he is going through



This out of context scan isn't even an example of mental anguish and isn't anything Itachi could replicate in Tsukuyomi without full knowledge.

Even if he attempted to use this against Kenpachi, it'd more than likely end up pissing him off rather than breaking him once he realizes this shit ain't real.



> Sharingan completely overides one's senses. Althout Kenpachi probably has innate defense against illusions, it isn't anywhere near as high to defend against Itachi.



He doesn't need to defend against it, Kenpachi tanks it. There's nothing Itachi can do in Tsukuyomi to physically or mentally break Kenpachi that he hasn't already laughed off in reality.



> Just as I said Juugo was easily restrained via weaker genjutsu from a weaker user.



Juugo's weak as shit mid-tier fodder whereas Kenpachi is one of the most powerful beings in his verse. His verse is much, much, much stronger than Itachi's verse by the way.

Using Juugo as an argument for Itachi. What the fuck?



> But lolVice



lol Itachiwank.


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

> His verse is much, much, much stronger than Itachi's verse by the way.


Outside the obd, probably.


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## Gibbs (May 1, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Edo Nagato never faced totsuka blade did he? Wasn't he tknj'ed.
> even if could beat Edo Nagato would be nlf claiming to be able to beat  kenpachi which now is more durable than him. We work with what is shown  on panel.


Edo Nagato was sealed with the Totsuka. Itachi allowed him to have a conversation with Naruto during the sealing process.








You can continue here: 



Also, Nagato had Preta Path which means he could not absorb it/no time.


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## tkpirate (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Again, you're implying that some fucking how, he didn't feel being melted.



he did feel being melted,but for how long?the fact that he got fully healed very quickly,and felt the pain for a very short time,it should not be a torture resistance feat.the fact that he got fully healed,we don't know how and what he would have done if he wasn't healed,


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## DarkTorrent (May 1, 2014)

> arguing that getting melted and healed a couple of times is comparable to 3 days worth of torture crammed into 3 seconds
> arguing that a character having higher DC and durability than a character from another verse makes him resistant to illusion/mindfuck attacks from that other verse

this thread


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

the fact that kenpachi is still sane after experiencing litterally knocking on deaths door multiple times is a good mental fortitude feat.


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## ZenithXAbyss (May 1, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> > arguing that getting melted and healed a couple of times is comparable to 3 days worth of torture crammed into 3 seconds
> > arguing that a character having higher DC and durability than a character from another verse makes him resistant to illusion/mindfuck attacks from that another verse
> 
> this thread



>implying that what they felt inside is condensed multiplying the effects of the torture.


And prove that it is just multiple times.


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## Zuhaitz (May 1, 2014)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> >Implying that physical torture isn't accompanied by mental trauma.





No, genius, implying that psychological torture can be effective against people to which physical torture can be a joke.

Take Dreyfus from NnT for example. He is like a Kenpachi, his physical capacities are beyond those Gowther and physical torture would probably be a joke to someone like him. But make him remember his childhood, and all his traumas from the past and he becomes a little crying kitty.

Kenpachi will handle the physical torture just fine, but make him watch how his entire division is slowly tortured and killed and killed in front of him, without him being able to move a finger. Make him see how someone other than himself kills Unohana before he can fight her. Make him see how he gets weaker and weaker, older and older, unable to win a fight and dying as the weakest being in the soul society and he may be affected.

An illusion can work against Kenpachi in 2 ways:
1. It can be used to confuse him, like a fast illusion that makes him think that Itachi is behind him while he is actually in front of him.

2. Psychological torture to frustrate, desperate him and make him fight blinded by the anger.


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## Velocity (May 1, 2014)

Y'know what? I'm just going to lock this. It's getting stupid now. Eight pages is clearly eight pages too many for a Cancerdome thread.


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