# BM Minato vs EMS Madara



## JuicyG (Nov 26, 2014)

Living version of Madara

Distance: 60 meters
Location: Open Field
Intel: None for Madara, Full for Minato
Mindset: IC
Restriction: Juubi Jin, Rinnegan

Condition:

Minato has kunai scattered all around the battle field; Lets say about 100 of them


~~~~~ Can't Minato just warp Madara out of Susano and proceed to blitz ?


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## ARGUS (Nov 26, 2014)

Minato comfortably wins this if madara doesnt have kurama 

 - Using tails to block Madaras PS slashes with ease, along with the kurama avatar durability ensuring that he tanks Madaras PS slashes with utmost ease, 

 - Once the slashes are blocked, Minato fires off TBB barrages and eradicates madaras PS to bits, and with Minato being able to coordinate his TBB with the aid of FTG just ensures that madara and his PS gets wrecked


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## Trojan (Nov 26, 2014)

Minato wins whether madara has Kurama or not (lol contract seal )


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## Jayaraman MinatoItachi (Nov 27, 2014)

This is same as BM Naruto vs ems madara. BM Minato is basically BM Naruto + hiraishin. Minato wins


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## Flappy (Nov 27, 2014)

Minato wins without much difficulty.

Yang Kurama tanked with its tails Juubi's beam that vaporises mountain ranges losing 6 tails in the process.
The same feats apply to Yin Kurama. PS slashes aren't remotely close to the output of Juubi's attacks.

They get tanked with moderate damage. Minato can either touch PS with his avatar and teleport 
Madara out of it proceeding to squash him with his tails or mark his PS and teleport multiple Biju sized TBB at PS killing Madara in the process.


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## sabre320 (Nov 27, 2014)

I cant believe it bm minato given some credit i must be dreaming lol


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 28, 2014)

Give both characters the same intel, minato still wins. 

Minato with outside markings makes him one of the hardest opponents to beat. I hate how people try to restrict that. Outside markings are part of Minatos arsenal. It's how he teleports attacks away. They're permanent seals, I don't see why people like to restrict them.


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## Kyu (Nov 28, 2014)

BM Minato wins. His BD Barrage will breach _Perfect Susano'o_ sooner or later.

_Contact Seal_ screws Madara over if he decides to summon Kurama.


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## Empathy (Nov 28, 2014)

Perfect _Susanoo_ is likely slightly stronger than the Kyuubi without natural energy augmentation. Hashirama treated it that way when he used the _Mokujin_ to combat _Susanoo_ and the _Mokuryuu_ to fight the full Kyuubi. Edo Madara did the same thing against the Kyuubi and Hachibi. Sasuke also powered-up to gain perfect _Susanoo_ at the same time Naruto applied _Sennin Modo_ to Kurama; a power which should rival Sennin Hashirama. A clash between Madara's trump card (perfect _Susanoo_) and Minato's full bijuu form would likely destroy whatever tags Minato has on the field. I'd give it to Madara with high difficulty.


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## ueharakk (Nov 28, 2014)

Madara gets obliterated by a super bijuudama warped into PS.

Madara's strongest attack with PS is just a sword slash, and *we've seen how effective that is against a BM avatar *when both constructs are of similar durability, while on the otherhand, *we've seen how effective a bijuudama is*.

Madara's PS only has offensive power on the level of a bijuu, Minato's has *power on the level of at least 5 bijuu*.  Then there's the fact that minato's BM is a much smaller and mobile target than Madara's huge PS.

This is just shown many times in the manga, whether it be kurama's bijuudamas being the main offensive against hashirama while PS blades were only used for support to a single bijuudama from kurama destroying mokujin + 2 mokuryus while Madara's PS can't even dent mokujin with multiple shockwaves.

Madara's PS might possibly have more defensive power than BM Minato's avatar since it's a lot bigger, but it still loses since there's such an enormous gap in offensive power, the avatar's ability to block attacks with its tails, it's much smaller and faster than PS making it a much harder target to hit.  Then there's FTG.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 29, 2014)

Empathy said:


> Perfect _Susanoo_ is likely slightly stronger than the Kyuubi without natural energy augmentation. Hashirama treated it that way when he used the _Mokujin_ to combat _Susanoo_ and the _Mokuryuu_ to fight the full Kyuubi. Edo Madara did the same thing against the Kyuubi and Hachibi. Sasuke also powered-up to gain perfect _Susanoo_ at the same time Naruto applied _Sennin Modo_ to Kurama; a power which should rival Sennin Hashirama. A clash between Madara's trump card (perfect _Susanoo_) and Minato's full bijuu form would likely destroy whatever tags Minato has on the field. I'd give it to Madara with high difficulty.



A Jinchuuriki is much stronger than a mindless tailed beast on it's own.

This has been stated multiple times in the manga, yet people still don't know. The nine tails that Madara used to fight Hashirama is not even in the same league as BM Naruto and BM Minato.

Deidara said it to Tobi when they caught the 3 tails. He said that because it's mindless, it isn't able to focus its power. Killer even wondered why Obito seemed much stronger as a Jinchuuriki compared to the 10 tails. The 8 tails said it's because it was just throwing out its pose uncontrollably, now as a Jinchuuriki, that power can be focused and utilised more efficiently. 

A Jinchuuriki in Bijuu mode is not just the tailed beasts power, it's also the Jinchuuriki's power in conjunction to that. Why do you think that Naruto was able to fight and man handle 5 tailed beasts at the same time. BM Naruto created a giant tailed beast bomb that matched the power of 5 other tailed beasts. BM Narutos roar sent all those tailed beasts flying back as well, knocked them to the ground all at once. And this is just 50% Kurama. 50% Jinchuuriki Kurama's power matches that of 5 tailed beasts. 

BM minato is stringer than perfect Susanoo.


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## Corax (Nov 29, 2014)

Give Madara Preta path to make it equal (I know that it is a Rinnegan power,but still). After the last fight in the Valley we know that even direct hits of AS cant do anything to BM (this has been kinda obvious since Juubi bijudama beam attack,but still). So even theoretically EMS Madara has no chance here,unless Minato can't hold BM for more than 5 minutes (which is likely true,as he is inexperienced in it). But even if he can hold it only for 5 minutes this is more than enough to destroy AS and win,because as the know even 1 bijudama can completely destroy 1 AS hand.


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## ARGUS (Nov 29, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Madara gets obliterated by a super bijuudama warped into PS.
> 
> Madara's strongest attack with PS is just a sword slash, and we've seen how effective that is against a BM avatar when both constructs are of similar durability, while on the otherhand, we've seen how effective a bijuudama is.
> 
> ...


the underline part of ur post is incorrect, 

Just because madaras PS is bigger doesnt mean that its more durable than the kurama avatar, 

Madaras PS was busted by a Chojo kobetsu that was weakened by 11 PS-infused TBB, a full chojo kobetsu would obliterate it, 
whereas the kurama avatar tanked the Juubi Beam, that outright pooped at 9 TBB from hachibi and the kurama avatar, (the same entity that you have shown can form a TBB equivalent to 5 bijuu) 

its a mere speculation to eveen state that PS could tank the Juubi Beam, which has power focused all on one beam, and based on feats has a higher DC than a Chojo Kobetsu which lost all of its arms,  

Even in durability the kurama avatar is above PS


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 29, 2014)

BM Minato babyshakes EMS Madara. You need to give Madara something else to make this competitive


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## Amol (Nov 29, 2014)

EMS Madara is not on same level of BM Minato.
Minato wins without much trouble.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2014)

I'm honestly surprise that there is a thread where people give Minato some credits, especially ARGUS. :rofl


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 29, 2014)

60 meters is nothing for BM Minato, he can instantly stretch his tail that distance Link removed

Naruto did it several times in BM and BSM
Link removed
Link removed


The problem here is you haven't even started Madara in PS. 

That means Minato can literally fire a TBB at start battle and eradicate him, simply blitz him with his his bijuu arm extension Rasengan (which easily covers 60m) or tails, or tag his PS before it manifests (it'll be smaller at this point), warp Madara out in front of his bijuu claw and slam his body into the ground, pink-misting him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 29, 2014)

Madara wipes him off the earth with mountain slashers.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2014)

slashes that are not even going to scratch his avatar tails! 
cool story. lol


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 29, 2014)

nope.avi 
Nice try tho


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## ARGUS (Nov 29, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I'm honestly surprise that there is a thread where people give Minato some credits, especially ARGUS. :rofl



i am just unbiased thats all, 
i give credit to any character based on the match up,


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## ueharakk (Nov 29, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> the underline part of ur post is incorrect,
> 
> Just because madaras PS is bigger doesnt mean that its more durable than the kurama avatar,
> 
> ...



The thing is though, Madara's PS took Chojo kobetsu to the face, Naruto's BM avatar blocked the juubi's beam with its tails.  I'm pretty sure if naruto's avatar took the beam to the face like madara took hashi's attack he'd be dead right now.

Also, the weakened chojo kobetsu still produced an explosion equal to 11 PS infused TBB.  That's kishi's way of saying both attacks were suppose to be equal. 

So I still think PS can take more punishment due to its size.


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## ARGUS (Nov 29, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> The thing is though, Madara's PS took Chojo kobetsu to the face, Naruto's BM avatar blocked the juubi's beam with its tails.  I'm pretty sure if naruto's avatar took the beam to the face like madara took hashi's attack he'd be dead right now.
> 
> Also, the weakened chojo kobetsu still produced an explosion equal to 11 PS infused TBB.  That's kishi's way of saying both attacks were suppose to be equal.
> 
> So I still think PS can take more punishment due to its size.



but unlike the kurama avatar, 
the durability of PS is equally distributed,  meanning that every part of the structure is equally durable, so that still doesnt change much, 

and Chojo Kobetsu arms were busted by 11 PS-TBB, yet the remaining arms went on and breached PS, therefore its actually superior to the PS-TBB, 
however a Chojo Kobetsu that lost pretty much 90% of its arms, still busted PS, 

a weakened chojo kobetsu is clearly inferior to the Juubi beam especially when iits power is all focused on one point, 

the beam will eradicate the PS, when a much weaker attack busted it


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## Zynn (Nov 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Madara wipes him off the earth with mountain slashers.



I really don't understand how Minato who can avoid a punch to the face by a lightning clad A via one use of FTG cannot dodge a slash from a sword large enough he can see it coming from tens if not a hundred miles away. 

Or are you simply trolling?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 29, 2014)

Zynn said:


> I really don't understand how Minato who can avoid a punch to the face by a lightning clad A via one use of FTG cannot dodge a slash from a sword large enough he can see it coming from tens if not a hundred miles away.
> 
> Or are you simply trolling?



Anything minato related, he's against. Not someone to take seriously here. I'm glad I put him on my ignore list. Don't have to see rubbish comments like that all the time.


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> i am just unbiased thats all,
> i give credit to any character based on the match up,



There are only a few people that I have seen that acknowledge to be biased. Everyone else and their mothers believe that they are not biased. Regardless, that's not the point.

It's not seeing you giving him credits once in awhile. lol



Zynn said:


> I really don't understand how Minato who can avoid a punch to the face by a lightning clad A via one use of FTG cannot dodge a slash from a sword large enough he can see it coming from tens if not a hundred miles away.
> 
> Or are you simply trolling?



He's itachi's fans. There have been so many wars between the fandoms, it's only natural.


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## ueharakk (Nov 29, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> but unlike the kurama avatar,
> the durability of PS is equally distributed,  meanning that every part of the structure is equally durable, so that still doesnt change much,


how does that not change much?  PS was in the shape of Kurama at the time, if it blocked the equivalent to what busted it at VoTe with its tails, it doesn't get destroyed, only its tails get erased much like what happened to Naruto's BM when it took the Juubi's laser.

Obito's ground pound wasn't strong enough to destroy the entire BSM avatar, all it had to do was destroy the head and damage naruto enough that his cloak came off yet it still resulted in the avatar being dispelled.  Unless you believe that BSM naruto could take the juubi's laser to the body with less damage than what he took from juubito's impact.



ARGUS said:


> and Chojo Kobetsu arms were busted by 11 PS-TBB, yet the remaining arms went on and breached PS, therefore its actually superior to the PS-TBB,
> however a Chojo Kobetsu that lost pretty much 90% of its arms, still busted PS,


sure, chojo kobetsu > 11 PS-TBB, but Chojo kobetsu that busted PS = 11 PS-TBB



ARGUS said:


> a weakened chojo kobetsu is clearly inferior to the Juubi beam especially when iits power is all focused on one point,


Yeah I agree with that.



ARGUS said:


> the beam will eradicate the PS, when a much weaker attack busted it


I don't necessarily agree with this.  I think that if PS blocked it with its wings+arms it wouldn't have been busted by weakened chojo kebutsu.  The juubi's beam is more concentrated though, so it might get through.


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## ARGUS (Nov 29, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> how does that not change much?  PS was in the shape of Kurama at the time, if it blocked the equivalent to what busted it at VoTe with its tails, it doesn't get destroyed, only its tails get erased much like what happened to Naruto's BM when it took the Juubi's laser.


Doent matter if PS was in the shape of kurama though, 
the durability of PS itself is still equally durable, since each part of the structure has the same amount of layers, 
so even if it took the shape of kurama its durabiity was still the same, and therefore was busted by Chojo, 

claiming that the durability of PS will change just because it armored kurama makes no sense



> Obito's ground pound wasn't strong enough to destroy the entire BSM avatar, all it had to do was destroy the head and damage naruto enough that his cloak came off yet it still resulted in the avatar being dispelled.  Unless you believe that BSM naruto could take the juubi's laser to the body with less damage than what he took from juubito's impact.


But what we're talking about is susanoo, 
and as far as  that is concerned, no matter where its hit, it would require the same amount of energy to breach from, 

even if saukes susanoo was hit from the legs from juubitos drop slam, the ddamage would have been exactly the same, with sasuke down on the ground, and his susanoo eradicated 



> sure, chojo kobetsu > 11 PS-TBB, but Chojo kobetsu that busted PS = 11 PS-TBB


the *amount of hands that landed on PS* were no where near the amount of hands that SS actually has, 
meaning that Chojo Kobetsus strenghth was plummetted by madaras offense,
since more arms = a stronger attack, 

and nothing suggestts that only a few arms of chojo are stronger than 11 PS-TBB, that seems abit too much,




> Yeah I agree with that.
> 
> 
> I don't necessarily agree with this.  I think that if PS blocked it with its wings+arms it wouldn't have been busted by weakened chojo kebutsu.  The juubi's beam is more concentrated though, so it might get through.


IMO, based on feats, Madaras PS would have been breached


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2014)

although I agree that the PS will get annihilated by the Juubi's TBB, but seriously this "feat only" argument is just silly. 

Do you consider Sakumo, or some of the other Kages, and Hamaru fodders because they don't have feats?


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## ARGUS (Nov 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> although I agree that the PS will get annihilated by the Juubi's TBB, but seriously this "feat only" argument is just silly.
> 
> Do you consider Sakumo, or some of the other Kages, and Hamaru fodders because they don't have feats?



The feats argument is not silly at all, 

Sakumo and the others are not considered fodders due to their hype, or general sense of portrayal that the reader can grasp upon reading the manga, 

what i am talking about here is PS, which has more than enough manga ground to discuss about, and therefore using its feats, helps  us lead to a proper conclusion,

why bother using hype when u have the facts to precisely form an analysis


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## Trojan (Nov 30, 2014)

As I said, you're right about the PS's point especially that we have seen it enough already, but I was talking
in general. Some characters barely got anything at all, and even when Kishi does give them some panel time
to show their power, he still hold them back one way or the other. Examples;

1- Hanzo: 

he was portrayed to be really powerful. However, when he got ET'd, kishi make him lose his "belief" which effected him overall, and as such was shown to be weak somehow. 

2- Hiruzen:

It's stated that his talent exceeds Tobirama since a young age, and he knows all the jutsus...etc but kishi made him old, and even when he returned as an ET, he was barely given any panel time.

3- Minato:

He made him lose one of his hand right away, and as such losing all of his Ninjutsu more or less. Thus, not allowing him to show anything new at all. 

4- Pakura, Gari, and the other KKG users, and the 7 swordsman, barely got 1 panel of fighting for each.
Even though some of them survived against Dai using the 8th Gate...etc

and so on and so forth. Some characters do have feats, perhaps good ones, but we know that they have more to them based on hype as well, and they did not appear or show those things because of Kishi holding them back one way or the other.... U_U


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## Corax (Nov 30, 2014)

PS can survive Juubi beam?It isnt even a question. Normal sized bijudama destroyed its arm, Juubidama is stronger than any,and concentrated in a beam it is even more stronger.


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## Trojan (Nov 30, 2014)

Even Hashirama's Buddha is not surviving the Juubi's beam. lol
All of its hands were destroyed by 9 TBB, the ones Madara used...

the Juubi's been destroyed 9 TBBs as well, and still was powerful enough to destroy 6 tails.


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## Corax (Nov 30, 2014)

More so arms were sliced by bidjudama shurikens,not destroyed by explosion. So yes, PS should not survive Juubi beam.


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## Empathy (Dec 2, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> A Jinchuuriki is much stronger than a mindless tailed beast on it's own.
> 
> This has been stated multiple times in the manga, yet people still don't know. The nine tails that Madara used to fight Hashirama is not even in the same league as BM Naruto and BM Minato.
> 
> ...



I agree that a bijuu is stronger with a jinchuuriki, as a jinchuuriki is better able to focus and harness a bijuu's power compared to a bijuu by itself. Albeit, that is a bit odd considering the bijuu were amended to possess sentient coherence, and were simply misunderstood by humanity. Nevertheless, Madara was spoken of in the same breathe as perfect jinchuurikis Yagura and Bee, in that he was able to assume perfect control of a bijuu much as a perfect jinchuuriki would. The distinction that Madara's usage of the Kyuubi is superior to even a regular jinchuurikis' is important. Naruto relied entirely on Kurama's power to push around the other five bijuu, as that's just how much stronger the Kyuubi is than the others. I won't try to argue that the full Kyuubi with 100% of its chakra is stronger than Minato or Naruto using it's bijuu form with only 50% individually, as that would conflict with my established power-scale, but the argument is there and it's certainly a presentable possibility. 

Minato's Kyuubi form is stronger than perfect _Susanoo_ is based on what exactly? The fact that Naruto was augmenting his variation of full bijuu mode with natural energy the entire time he was clashing with or combining his power with Sasuke's? The fact that Naruto's contemporary rival gained perfect _Susanoo_ roughly the same time Naruto applied _Sennin Modo_ to Kurama? The fact that the Kyuubi was treated as a secondary threat by Hashirama? The fact that Madara didn't even bother to bring out perfect _Susanoo_ against Naruto's bijuu form without natural energy; that Madara instead used the method Hashirama used when he treated the Kyuubi as the secondary threat? These facts would all indicate toward the contrary.


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## JuicyG (Dec 2, 2014)

Zynn said:


> I really don't understand how Minato who can avoid a punch to the face by a lightning clad A via one use of FTG cannot dodge a slash from a sword large enough he can see it coming from tens if not a hundred miles away.
> 
> Or are you simply trolling?




He's mad that Minato > Itachi. It hurts him


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 2, 2014)

Empathy said:


> I agree that a bijuu is stronger with a jinchuuriki, as a jinchuuriki is better able to focus and harness a bijuu's power compared to a bijuu by itself. Albeit, that is a bit odd considering the bijuu were amended to possess sentient coherence, and were simply misunderstood by humanity. Nevertheless, Madara was spoken of in the same breathe as perfect jinchuurikis Yagura and Bee, in that he was able to assume perfect control of a bijuu much as a perfect jinchuuriki would. The distinction that Madara's usage of the Kyuubi is superior to even a regular jinchuurikis' is important. Naruto relied entirely on Kurama's power to push around the other five bijuu, as that's just how much stronger the Kyuubi is than the others. I won't try to argue that the full Kyuubi with 100% of its chakra is stronger than Minato or Naruto using it's bijuu form with only 50% individually, as that would conflict with my established power-scale, but the argument is there and it's certainly a presentable possibility.
> 
> Minato's Kyuubi form is stronger than perfect _Susanoo_ is based on what exactly? The fact that Naruto was augmenting his variation of full bijuu mode with natural energy the entire time he was clashing with or combining his power with Sasuke's? The fact that Naruto's contemporary rival gained perfect _Susanoo_ roughly the same time Naruto applied _Sennin Modo_ to Kurama? The fact that the Kyuubi was treated as a secondary threat by Hashirama? The fact that Madara didn't even bother to bring out perfect _Susanoo_ against Naruto's bijuu form without natural energy; that Madara instead used the method Hashirama used when he treated the Kyuubi as the secondary threat? These facts would all indicate toward the contrary.


Kurama is not much stronger than the other tailed beasts at all. Kurama used to arrogantly state that, but Gyuki confirmed that number of tails have nothing to do with their strength. It was never statedd that Kurama is the strongest tailed beast either.

Madara wasn't spoken in the same breathe of perfect Jinchuuriki. They  were talking about those who could control a tailed beast, nothing to do with power whatsoever. 14 year old Obito can also control a tailed beast to the same degree as Madara.

And I'm glad you aren't going to argue that full Kurama is stringer than 50% perfect Jin Kurama, because that's so wrong. It's clear as day that BM Naruto is much stronger than the version Madara controlled. You don't seem to get that the Tailed Beast and Jinchuuriki combine their powers, it isn't just Naruto using Kurama's power. Both of them are combining strength, and all that wreck less power that the tailed beast just mindless throw out, is completely focused and as a result stronger when the Jinchuuriki controls the power.

Madada didn't bring out perfect Susanoo because he had something better and much more effective. He had Hashirama's wood dragon that absorbs their chakra, why would he use perfect Susanoo, it'd be way less effective. What'? Hashirama stated that Kurama's power was much too great and could not be allowed to roam free. And that's Kurama on it's own anyway. Perfect Susanoo wouldn't have done jack to BM Naruto, and Madara knows that, there'd just be pointless destruction everywhere.

Minatos BM is stronger than Madara's PS, based on the fact that Madara compared the power of his Susanoo to that of a tailed beast. (Notice he said tailed beast and not Kurama, in other words, all tailed beasts have equal destructive power). And as it has been stated time and time again, A Jinchuuriki is much more powerful than a tailed beast on its own. So it' only makes sense that of Madara's ps could only rival a tailed beast, how would it rival he he power of a perfect Jinchuuriki, since they're stronger? And finally, let's not forget that Madara can't use Susanoo forever, it's a highly taxing jutsu. Kurama continually restores Minatos chakra over and over because his chakra is limitless. When Kurama uses a lot of chakra, he just meditates and re accumulates more chakra. Madara can't go on forever. Finally, 2 perfect Jinchuuriki blocked the Juubi laser with their tails alone, Madara's Susanoo was broken by Hashirama's much much weaker jutsu.


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## Empathy (Dec 2, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Kurama is not much stronger than the other tailed beasts at all. Kurama used to arrogantly state that, but Gyuki confirmed that number of tails have nothing to do with their strength. It was never statedd that Kurama is the strongest tailed beast either.



The Kyuubi is definitely the strongest bijuu (excluding the Juubi). I don't even see how that's questionable. Which is bijuu is the strongest then? Itachi stated the Kyuubi's power to be so great that the _Gedo Mazo_ statue would crumble if it's chakra weren't introduced last. Is that not confirmation that the Kyuubi's power is greatest? If the Hachibi is right, all he means is that the number of tails between the bijuu 1-7 are irrelevant, and they're roughly the same in strength. Just because Kurama says something, and Gyuuki says otherwise, doesn't make the latter correct. Is the Juubi having ten tails merely an aesthetic thing, and not a representation of strength? According to the Hachibi, it apparently means nothing and the Juubi could very well, theoretically be weaker than the Ichibi.



> Madara wasn't spoken in the same breathe of perfect Jinchuuriki. They  were talking about those who could control a tailed beast, nothing to do with power whatsoever. 14 year old Obito can also control a tailed beast to the same degree as Madara.



That's a testament to Obito, Madara's protege. Yagura's status a perfect jinchuuriki was most likely a result of Obito's influence in the first place; unless you're completely unable to make a logical inference. You're telling me that Part I Gaara's usage of the Ichibi is superior to Madara's or Obito's subjugation of Kurama, just by virtue of Gaara's status as an imperfect jinchuuriki? 



> And I'm glad you aren't going to argue that full Kurama is stringer than 50% perfect Jin Kurama, because that's so wrong. It's clear as day that BM Naruto is much stronger than the version Madara controlled. You don't seem to get that the Tailed Beast and Jinchuuriki combine their powers, it isn't just Naruto using Kurama's power. Both of them are combining strength, and all that wreck less power that the tailed beast just mindless throw out, is completely focused and as a result stronger when the Jinchuuriki controls the power.



I wouldn't say the way Minato or Naruto uses the Kyuubi's power is _much_ stronger than the way Madara's uses the Kyuubi's power. The way Madara incorporates his control of the Kyuubi and supplements it to his own abilities is overall superior to Minato. But speaking solely of the usage of the Kyuubi's powers, Minato incorporates it slightly better as he can assume the Kyuubi's form and consult it, whereas Madara simply controls it's power and directs it to do his bidding. You're telling me that when Bee manifests a partial tentacle from himself, it's stronger than a Hachibi tail swipe by itself, just by virtue of a jinchuuriki using it? What about KN4 or KN6? 

Which abilities of Naruto's were they using, because that was a demonstration of an imperfect jinchuuriki's power. Or CE Gaara was using a superior version of Shukaku's power, just because he's a jinchuuriki? When Naruto was overpowering the five other bijuu, he was mostly just using Kurama's power, except with Naruto at the helm. Naruto simply doing stuff Kurama can do on his own, doesn't inherently make it stronger just because Naruto did it. But when Naruto starts making Kurama enter _Sennin Modo_, create _Kage Bunshins_, or use _Rasengan_ — then it's a combination of Naruto's and Kurama's power that is superior to Kurama's power on its own. 



> Madada didn't bring out perfect Susanoo because he had something better and much more effective. He had Hashirama's wood dragon that absorbs their chakra, why would he use perfect Susanoo, it'd be way less effective. What'? Hashirama stated that Kurama's power was much too great and could not be allowed to roam free. And that's Kurama on it's own anyway. Perfect Susanoo wouldn't have done jack to BM Naruto, and Madara knows that, there'd just be pointless destruction everywhere.



If _Mokuryuu_ is so much better and stronger than perfect _Susanoo_, then why didn't Hashirama just use that to defeat Madara in the first place? Why did Hashirama use a seemingly stronger _Mokujin_ instead? Whenever Naruto used his Kyuubi form in conjunction with Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ or to clash against it, he applied natural energy to Kurama. Minato's Kyuubi form does not possess _Sennin Modo_, and is inferior to Naruto's. What was the point of Sasuke powering up to Madara's level with perfect _Susanoo_ just before defeating Obito, while Naruto combined _Sennin Modo_ with Kurama and was being compared to Hashirama — if Naruto was already stronger than his eternal rival before then? Why was Naruto using natural energy with Kurama to combat Sasuke's _Susanoo_, if Naruto is ostensibly already superior to Sasuke without natural energy? 



> Minatos BM is stronger than Madara's PS, based on the fact that Madara compared the power of his Susanoo to that of a tailed beast. (Notice he said tailed beast and not Kurama, in other words, all tailed beasts have equal destructive power). And as it has been stated time and time again, A Jinchuuriki is much more powerful than a tailed beast on its own. So it' only makes sense that of Madara's ps could only rival a tailed beast, how would it rival he he power of a perfect Jinchuuriki, since they're stronger? And finally, let's not forget that Madara can't use Susanoo forever, it's a highly taxing jutsu. Kurama continually restores Minatos chakra over and over because his chakra is limitless. When Kurama uses a lot of chakra, he just meditates and re accumulates more chakra. Madara can't go on forever.



Madara simply stated that his destructive capacity is comparable to a bijuu's and that's it. Considering one standard _Bijuudama_ each obliterate one mountain, and one swing of Madara's sword can slice mountain tops miles away, he isn't exactly wrong. Hashirama treated Madara's perfect _Susanoo_ as a greater threat than the full Kyuubi. How can Sasuke even be Naruto's rival, if his perfect _Susanoo_ (before meeting Hagoromo) was only as strong as one bijuu, say the Nibi for example? If Naruto was slapping around five bijuu, and again, Madara's and Sasuke's greatest jutsu is only as strong as one bijuu apparently,  and then Naruto powers up even further by adding _Sennin Modo_ to Kurama — how can Sasuke even be considered his rival? Why didn't Naruto just reiatsu crush Madara if he were that many times stronger than him? How was Madara even going to hurt Bee with his lesser _Susanoo_ and why didn't Bee just match Madara's power in the first place? 

If it's all because of mokuton then how was Madara able to keep up with Hashirama? Madara's never shown any difficulty using _Susanoo_, and the battle likely wouldn't last long enough for attrition to come into play unless all Minato literally does is run away. A jinchuuriki isn't superior to a bijuu just because it's a jinchuuriki. When Kurama was sealed inside baby Naruto, it didn't make Kurama any stronger or bolster him in any way, just because that baby was now a jinchuuriki. When Naruto's at the helm of Kurama's powers, and is able to add his own abilities to Kurama's, then a jinchuuriki is superior to a bijuu by itself; because it's Naruto's powers plus Kurama's powers, compared to just Kurama's powers on their own. Basic addition is what makes the jinchuuriki stronger. 



> Finally, 2 perfect Jinchuuriki blocked the Juubi laser with their tails alone, Madara's Susanoo was broken by Hashirama's much much weaker jutsu.



The Hachibi never blocked anything. It was warped out of the way by Kakashi. Bee being able to block something Madara or Hashirama can't would be absurd. The Juubi was in its weakest form, so it wasn't that much stronger than them at the time. Naruto's tails clashed with Sasuke's slashes and Naruto was being forced back. Even if you subtract Naruto's and Sasuke's equal halves of Hagoromo's chakra, Naruto was still utilizing his senjutsu at the time as well. Naruto blocking the Juubi's weakest _Bijuudama_ is just a testament to the strength of Kurama's tails, although they were blown off as a result. Madara with perfect _Susanoo_ or Hashirama with _Shin Suusenju_ could likely survive the Juubi's weakest _Bijuudama_ as well, considering Naruto could do it even without having to add _Sennin Modo_.


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## sabre320 (Dec 2, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Kurama is not much stronger than the other tailed beasts at all. Kurama used to arrogantly state that, but Gyuki confirmed that number of tails have nothing to do with their strength. It was never statedd that Kurama is the strongest tailed beast either.
> 
> Madara wasn't spoken in the same breathe of perfect Jinchuuriki. They  were talking about those who could control a tailed beast, nothing to do with power whatsoever. 14 year old Obito can also control a tailed beast to the same degree as Madara.
> 
> ...



Actually i would have to say kurama is far stronger then the other bijuu his size is much greater he towers over the others his chakra is so much greater...he can make bijuudamas the others can only dream of ...he was able to demolish hashis wood dragon while gyuki was rendered helpless by regular mokuton....hell kurama helped naruto match sasuke with all the bijuu this is a theme being presented many times in the manga the akatsuki also stated it..hashirama stated kyuubis power was too great that in itself tells you something ...he made it his priority to disable kyuubi with mokuton because he was the main force behind madaras threat...you have to disable kurama else hes basically a juggernaut who can keep going..hes capable of this when emaciated and in half

so a full kyuubis attacks are very dangerous even to hashirama....while perfect sussano can only dream of producing that kind of firepower!


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## sabre320 (Dec 2, 2014)

Empathy said:


> The Kyuubi is definitely the strongest bijuu (excluding the Juubi). I don't even see how that's questionable. Which is bijuu is the strongest then? Itachi stated the Kyuubi's power to be so great that the _Gedo Mazo_ statue would crumble if it's chakra weren't introduced last. Is that not confirmation that the Kyuubi's power is greatest? If the Hachibi is right, all he means is that the number of tails between the bijuu 1-7 are irrelevant, and they're roughly the same in strength. Just because Kurama says something, and Gyuuki says otherwise, doesn't make the latter correct. Is the Juubi having ten tails merely an aesthetic thing, and not a representation of strength? According to the Hachibi, it apparently means nothing and the Juubi could very well, theoretically be weaker than the Ichibi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kyuubi was able to make a bijuudama of this size while emaciated and in half .....
a fresh kurama can make one multitudes bigger what kind of attack does ps produce that even comes close to that kind of firepower? and you think ps is tanking a bijuudama several times bigger then that?


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## Empathy (Dec 2, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Kyuubi was able to make a bijuudama of this size while emaciated and in half .....
> a fresh kurama can make one multitudes bigger what kind of attack does ps produce that even comes close to that kind of firepower? and you think ps is tanking a bijuudama several times bigger then that?



If one standard-sized _Bijuudama_ generally obliterate one mountain, then a supercharged one should be mountain-range size in scale (like it was shown with Naruto clashing against five bijuu, or him and Bee charging one to destroy _Gedo Mazo_). That puts it on a similar scale as _Shin Suusenju_, although it could be weaker as it lacks senjutsu. I'd say there's a good chance Madara could survive it, although it's more likely that the attack could be preempted from charging to that size if Madara slashed at Kurama. Kurama's in a lot of trouble it detonates anywhere near himself as well.


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## sabre320 (Dec 2, 2014)

Empathy said:


> If one standard-sized _Bijuudama_ generally obliterate one mountain, then a supercharged one should be mountain-range size in scale (like it was shown with Naruto clashing against five bijuu, or him and Bee charging one to destroy _Gedo Mazo_). That puts it on a similar scale as _Shin Suusenju_, although it could be weaker as it lacks senjutsu. I'd say there's a good chance Madara could survive it, although it's more likely that the attack could be preempted from charging to that size if Madara slashed at Kurama. Kurama's in a lot of trouble it detonates anywhere near himself as well.



So you concede that the ps cannot replicate this sort of damage remotely?
Funny thing about that this bijuudama was created almost instantly by an emaciated half kurama and is hundreds of times bigger then a standard bijudama......its well above the shinsensenjus attack..and is concentrated one shot compared to the punches that are a series of attack thus expells its energy in one shot example a t80tank can take a pound of c4 without damage you can hit it with the a pound charge in a series 10 times its not getting through the armour but put 50pounds of c4 in one charge and the tank is scrapmetal...Not to mention a fresh kurama should easily create one atleast 4times this size....ps or shinsensenju are not surviving that....considering your argument about its interception....the charging speed is very fast ...especially considering ps has to unseathe its sword and swing also not to mention we have feats of kurama blocking attacks far above ps swing with its tails....see juubi laser....which plowed through 11 bijuudama and still carved through a mountain range .....so yeah ps is not superior to kurama...not to mention look at its chakra feats in the end game chapters against sasuke..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2014)

Madara, easily.


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## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara, easily.



Good to see ur consistent


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## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Good to see ur consistent



Madara has much better combat speed feats than Minato. Thats why he slaughters him. And, as i probably wrote before in other threads, Minato's speed is overrated. Even Tobirama was more impressive in terms of speed than BM Minato.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 9, 2014)

Empathy said:


> If one standard-sized _Bijuudama_ generally obliterate one mountain, then a supercharged one should be mountain-range size in scale (like it was shown with Naruto clashing against five bijuu, or him and Bee charging one to destroy _Gedo Mazo_). That puts it on a similar scale as _Shin Suusenju_, although it could be weaker as it lacks senjutsu. I'd say there's a good chance Madara could survive it, although it's more likely that the attack could be preempted from charging to that size if Madara slashed at Kurama. Kurama's in a lot of trouble it detonates anywhere near himself as well.



Senjutsu can still be added. So there's no issue in terms of power.


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## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

Does madara have kurama as well? Because I noticed that wasn't restricted and he was utilized in alive Madaras only ems showing.

If so madara wtf stomps.

If not id be a close fight. Maybe even 50/50.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Does madara have kurama as well? Because I noticed that wasn't restricted and he was utilized in alive Madaras only ems showing.
> 
> If so madara wtf stomps.
> 
> If not id be a close fight. Maybe even 50/50.



Edo Madara, who is not as fast as alive EMS Madara, effortlessly dodged Gaara's sand. The same sand that reacted to prime V2 Armor Raikage and blocked Amaterasu. This feat is above anything Minato has shown during, or after his lifetime. Even Tobirama was faster than BM Minato.

BM Minato stands 0 chance. The only thing he can do is retreat from battlefield so he wont die in a battle with Madara. 

Madara stomps, even without Kurama.


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## TheGreen1 (Dec 9, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Edo Madara, who is not as fast as alive EMS Madara, effortlessly dodged Gaara's sand. The same sand that reacted to prime V2 Armor Raikage and blocked Amaterasu. This feat is above anything Minato has shown during, or after his lifetime. Even Tobirama was faster than BM Minato.
> 
> BM Minato stands 0 chance. The only thing he can do is retreat from battlefield so he wont die in a battle with Madara.
> 
> Madara stomps, even without Kurama.



This is frankly hilarious beyond all belief. Perfect Susano'o isn't doing shit to the Kurama-Avatar. It's durability feats are just simply amazing.

Your delusion is just indescribably amazing. Tobirama himself stated that Minato was faster. 

Frankly, there's no way that Madara doesn't end up losing here unless Minato allows Madara a win.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> This is frankly hilarious beyond all belief. Perfect Susano'o isn't doing shit to the Kurama-Avatar. It's durability feats are just simply amazing.
> 
> Your delusion is just indescribably amazing. Tobirama himself stated that Minato was faster.
> 
> Frankly, there's no way that Madara doesn't end up losing here unless Minato allows Madara a win.



Ok, maybe you can give me BM Minato's durability feats than? Is he durable enough to withstand mountain-busting attacks?

Scan please of Tobirama stating Minato is faster than him. 

And Madara wins. PS + superior combat speed (as i already explained). There is no way BM Minato can win.


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## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

Starwanderer Narutos bm cloak withstood the juubis bijuudama beam attack which destroyed a small mountain range.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Starwanderer Narutos bm cloak withstood the juubis bijuudama beam attack which destroyed a small mountain range.



Sorry, forgot about that. But can Minato be in that BM cloak for a long time? Kurama needs to restore his chakra reserves. And i think that it wont be easy for him to counter tens and tens of PS slashes that can cut multiple mountains in one swing. 

Madara wins anyway.


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## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Sorry, forgot about that. But can Minato be in that BM cloak for a long time? Kurama needs to restore his chakra reserves. And i think that it wont be easy for him to counter tens and tens of PS slashes that can cut multiple mountains in one swing.
> 
> Madara wins anyway.



Yup madara wins anyway .......kurama needs to restore his reserves against madara..lets ignore the fact that madara has no attack remotely  close to the juubis beam that bulldozed through 11 bijuudama and still ploughed through a mountain range....lets ignore the fact that minato can make clones that have shunshin that can cross konoha in a flash but enhanced by bm to place markers all around the battle field.....lets ignore the fact that one tail from a bm avatar can match the sword of ps...

Kyuubi was able to make a bijuudama of this size while emaciated and in half .....[9.2]
a fresh kurama can make one multitudes bigger what kind of attack does ps produce that even comes close to that kind of firepower? and you think ps is tanking a bijuudama several times bigger then that?

Minato coul literally teleport to a location miles away through his clones charge a giant bijudama atleast threetimes that size and teleport it onto ps through space time barrier...

Minato can also summon ma and pa.. teleport to a marker far away charge frog song and use it once its done by teleporting back...hell he can just tank in his bm till its done...

This is not bm naruto people this is minato already a top tier ninja with one of the most hax utility jutsu given bm


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## Arles Celes (Dec 9, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> A Jinchuuriki is much stronger than a mindless tailed beast on it's own.
> 
> This has been stated multiple times in the manga, yet people still don't know. The nine tails that Madara used to fight Hashirama is not even in the same league as BM Naruto and BM Minato.
> 
> ...



If that is the case then why didn't Bee in Hachibi form didn't steamroll over those bijuus and was almost defeated by one?

Sanbi might have been an idiot among bijuus as he was shown having trouble speaking but Kurama was shown to be much smarter even without Naruto. Hachibi also seems smarter than Bee even.

Many fap over how much stronger must be BM Naruto over Kurama since he could make those super bijudamas but Kurama could also make super bijuudamas even when left in a skeletal form after having much of his chakra taken by Naruto. He just doesn't focus on a single super attack preferring smaller bijuudamas which still possess immense power.

And Madara's comment on how his PS is equal to bijuu it didn't specify which bijuu. Clearly a bijuu like Kurama is much stronger than Sanbi or Shikaku. I doubt Madara was comparing his PS to weaker bijuus.


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## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> If that is the case then why didn't Bee in Hachibi form didn't steamroll over those bijuus and was almost defeated by one?
> 
> Sanbi might have been an idiot among bijuus as he was shown having trouble speaking but Kurama was shown to be much smarter even without Naruto. Hachibi also seems smarter than Bee even.
> 
> ...



Considering madars strongest attack equals a simple bijudama from an average bijuu yeah..while kurama is capable of firepower ps could only dream of....bee was hesitant to fight the bijuu when they were in obitos control he knew they were not the enemy he tried to immobilize son goku with his tentacles when he got serious he bitch slapped gonbi several blocks away...not to mention he was being harrased by v2 jinchuriki at the same time..

.funny thing kurama might be capable of making giant bijuudama but him in madaras control was not..its pretty selfexplanatory bm narutos feat far eclipse kyuubis...every facet of his abilities is enhanced while the weaknesses are countered such as genjutsu...who do you think wins between bm naruto and kyuubi yeah thought so....


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## Deer Lord (Dec 9, 2014)

Quick question:
What is stopping madara from summoning the kyuubi?

I've seen contract seal mentioned but that requires contact with the summoner
If madara encases himself in sussano before he does that minato should'nt be able to do that (unless he already has him marked by that point)


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## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Yup madara wins anyway .......kurama needs to restore his reserves against madara..lets ignore the fact that madara has no attack remotely  close to the juubis beam that bulldozed through 11 bijuudama and still ploughed through a mountain range....lets ignore the fact that minato can make clones that have shunshin that can cross konoha in a flash but enhanced by bm to place markers all around the battle field.....lets ignore the fact that one tail from a bm avatar can match the sword of ps...
> 
> Kyuubi was able to make a bijuudama of this size while emaciated and in half .....[9.2]
> a fresh kurama can make one multitudes bigger what kind of attack does ps produce that even comes close to that kind of firepower? and you think ps is tanking a bijuudama several times bigger then that?
> ...



Madara is fast enough to not let him teleport everywhere he wants. And he can destroy his kunai's, or markings with his attacks. Plus, his PS can easily tank a Bijuudama from full Kurama. 

Do you have a proof he can make the same bunshin Naruto was able to make? 

And, as i wrote before, he cannot maintain Kurama state for a long time since Kurama needs to restore chakra. He can tank PS slashes only in that state. 

So Madara still wins.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 9, 2014)

Deer Lord said:


> Quick question:
> What is stopping madara from summoning the kyuubi?
> 
> I've seen contract seal mentioned but that requires contact with the summoner
> If madara encases himself in sussano before he does that minato should'nt be able to do that (unless he already has him marked by that point)



I remember reading on another forum that applying the contract to the summoning instead of the summoner should also break the contract.

Which makes sense, since it is still essentially removing a contract between summon and summoner. But some will probably argue, I personally don't see why the same effect wouldn't apply.


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## Deer Lord (Dec 9, 2014)

Only instance when it was used was on obito.
If it indeed works the other way around I would imagine touching a gaint fox would have been alot easier than a high level ninja that can phase through stuff.


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## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I remember reading on another forum that applying the contract to the summoning instead of the summoner should also break the contract.
> 
> Which makes sense, since it is still essentially removing a contract between summon and summoner. But some will probably argue, I personally don't see why the same effect wouldn't apply.




But Madara in cases the kyuubi with PS so that's easier said than done.


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## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

SSMG said:


> But Madara in cases the kyuubi with PS so that's easier said than done.



Then frogsong wins the day minato teleports kyuubis attacks back and teleports long enough to charge frogsong.....markings cannot be destroyed they are still there...redirected bladebijuudamas along with his own giant bijuudama the onslaught should bust sussano


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## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

Hmm can Minato even use frog song?
Also can frog song even go through PS?
Because Minato does not have a marking on Madara nor on the kyuubi so he's not redirecting the blades back at PSKyuubi.


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## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Hmm can Minato even use frog song?
> Also can frog song even go through PS?
> Because Minato does not have a marking on Madara nor on the kyuubi so he's not redirecting the blades back at PSKyuubi.



Minato can summon all the frogs and ma and pa produce frog song...
Ofcourse frogsong goes through ps sound jutsu have in canon gone through sussano..why wouldnt it you can hear each other through sussano....minato in a fraction of a sec spread 30 kunai against a ....he in canon spams markings and likes to put markings miles away at incredible speeds as was the case with his entrance against juubis juubidama he placed a marking  how many miles away from the battlefield shunshined around placed marking around the juubi for the barrier and teleported the juubidama before anyone registered his presence he is capable of making bm clones that are much much faster and can go in multiple directions placing markings ...as in canon minato can teleport bijuudama even without markings against the kyuubis bijudama via space time barrier..one bm clone is certainly capable of placing a mark on kyuubisussano as kyuubi couldnt even react to minato in base as he shunshined across konoha to save kushina even if it is a sacrificial one not to mention its also possible through ftg kunai aimed at him..


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## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

Minato has only summoned one toad. He's never summoned ma and pa so that's unfounded.

Yeah but the susanno a sound based jutsu went through was ribcage susanno which has openings in between the ribs.. Something PS doesn't suffer from.

Him good point about the Minato spreading kunai around. But one step from PS would displace the ground/markings so that's a little tricky.

And we know Minato needs a kunai on the other end when he warps attacks. It was shown the second time he warped an attack away so it carries over to the first showing too. 
But I agree Minato can create a clone to carry a kunai or place a kunai to warp attacks back at Madara.. assuming Madara doesn't destroy said clone before he focuses on the real one.


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## Deer Lord (Dec 9, 2014)

A couple of things to consider:

1. You are assuming contract seal works that way, which is debatable, considering the fashion in which it was used.

2. Summoning ma & pa takes time, a valueble thing when you are dependant on BM to survive.

3. He is going to be warping enemy BD, firing his own and using frog song at the same time?
He's gonna have to use kage bunshin to accomplish that, and it will drain his BM significantly faster.

4. warping things the size of BM is not casual. base minato was drained after warping the Kyuubi
Edo minato could manage warping large items due to chakra regen and kyuubi chakra, and still warping a multitude of people took a toll on his chakra reserves.

In order to compete with Madara and full kyuubi he's gonna have to do all this things with kurama avatar always up and runing, he's gonna run out before he beats him, and he won't live long enough to see kurama re-gather chakra for another go at BM.

Minato can beat EMS madara more often than not If he doesn't have the kyuubi.
But if he does I don't think he can really manage that, Madara outlasts his BM and wins.


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## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Minato has only summoned one toad. He's never summoned ma and pa so that's unfounded.
> 
> Yeah but the susanno a sound based jutsu went through was ribcage susanno which has openings in between the ribs.. Something PS doesn't suffer from.
> 
> ...



Its is stated in the databook that minato can summon all toads....denying it is unfounded especially since he has sage training so must have been to Mount Myōboku and ma and pa are the only teachers in the toad mountain..naruto had no prior contact with gamahiro yet he was able to summon him vs zetsu....naruto has himself never summoned ma and pa so are you going to claim he can never summon them?

Its quite simple sound passes through sussano as the user can have communication through voice while in it there is absolutely no argument or proof that ps stops sound..

The markings can never dissapear sussano can step on them but they will still be there..he didnt have a kunai on the other end when he warped the kyuubis bijudama..a bm clone of minato has magnificent shunshin and could use ftg also a base minatos shunshin blitzed kurama....remember the food cart destroyer..he is gonna get a mark on kyubisussano ..he can make multiple clones one can place a mark miles away so minato can charge a super bijuudama this can be landed onto kyuubisussano pointblank to bust it especially when bladedamas can also be redirected as the clones can also utilize spacetime barrier


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## StarWanderer (Dec 9, 2014)

BM Minato cant do anything to Madara, since his PS easily took Full Kurama's TBB without taking any damage. BM Minato is not as fast as Madara in terms of combat speed. BM Minato cant maintain Kurama's shape all the time and his Kurama half needs to restore chakra in order to take the shape of Kurama. And that shape state is the only state with which Minato can withstand PS slashes. Madara is more experienced. Madara is a genjutsu expert and, since he is faster than BM Minato in terms of combat speed, he can put him in a genjutsu. Madara is smarter. Etcetera, etcetera. 

Madara wrecks BM Minato hands down.


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## SSMG (Dec 9, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Its is stated in the databook that minato can summon all toads....denying it is unfounded especially since he has sage training so must have been to Mount Myōboku and ma and pa are the only teachers in the toad mountain..naruto had no prior contact with gamahiro yet he was able to summon him vs zetsu....naruto has himself never summoned ma and pa so are you going to claim he can never summon them?
> 
> Its quite simple sound passes through sussano as the user can have communication through voice while in it there is absolutely no argument or proof that ps stops sound..
> 
> The markings can never dissapear sussano can step on them but they will still be there..he didnt have a kunai on the other end when he warped the kyuubis bijudama..a bm clone of minato has magnificent shunshin and could use ftg also a base minatos shunshin blitzed kurama....remember the food cart destroyer..he is gonna get a mark on kyubisussano ..he can make multiple clones one can place a mark miles away so minato can charge a super bijuudama this can be landed onto kyuubisussano pointblank to bust it especially when bladedamas can also be redirected as the clones can also utilize spacetime barrier


The data books say a lot of shit. The fact of the matter is Minato never has summoned ma or pa nor has he had them use frog song in combat.. Even when faced with the juubi jin madara. Naruto has summoned gamahiro though so that's moot. And we know naruto has a contract with I believe it was pa since pa summoned naruto to the mountain before. We don't know that for Minato.

Sound and sound based attacks are two very different things in naruto. Frog call is a sound based attack but it didn't put down all the pain paths even though they were all in range to be able to hear naruto. So is there any proof sound based attacks will go through PS and affect Madara.

I never claimed the tags would disappear completely. Just that they would be displaced. But Madara can actually burn the paper the tags are on thus getting rid if them that way as well.

Yeah he did have a kunai on the other end. We've only been shown the receiving end of the barrier technique one time and it had a kunai there.. So unless you can prove he didn't have a kunai there then it stands as he uses a kunai to redirect them.

Yeah Minato could use bringing down the house on a wild kyuubi but there's nothing to say he will do so with a ems controlled kyuubi wrapped in PS. Also whatever part of susanno Minato puts the tag onto Madara can just deconstruct and reconstruct a new part there getting rid of it.

What's BM minatos clones best shunshin feats BTW? Because as far as I can tell Madara will be able to see them and pop them before they get close.

Madara has tanked something more powerful than super sized bijuudama and went on to fight the user to a standstill after hours of fighting afterwards.

Also his clones can use the barrier? I'd like to see a panel of that.


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## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

Deer Lord said:


> A couple of things to consider:
> 
> 1. You are assuming contract seal works that way, which is debatable, considering the fashion in which it was used.
> 
> ...



Summoning ma and pa is certainly possible within bm,s time limit and jirayia took time to get into preparation for sage mode not summoning ma and pa....with the chakra reserves of kurama summoning ma and pa is very simple...making bm clones has not once been coorelated with lowering the time limit....the time limit was due to getting used to the link with kurama and jinchuriki its not about reserves considering minato took control of kurama in the deathgods stomach he should be well acquainted with kurama.. the charge time of frogsong is not some hour long process especially when minato can retreat to a seal miles away to recover his reserves just in case bm runs out which is unlikely especially because naruto just gained control of kuramas chakra..


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## sabre320 (Dec 9, 2014)

SSMG said:


> The data books say a lot of shit. The fact of the matter is Minato never has summoned ma or pa nor has he had them use frog song in combat.. Even when faced with the juubi jin madara. Naruto has summoned gamahiro though so that's moot. And we know naruto has a contract with I believe it was pa since pa summoned naruto to the mountain before. We don't know that for Minato.
> 
> Sound and sound based attacks are two very different things in naruto. Frog call is a sound based attack but it didn't put down all the pain paths even though they were all in range to be able to hear naruto. So is there any proof sound based attacks will go through PS and affect Madara.
> 
> ...



Minato also has the contract he is a sage and has been to mountain....pa knew him....naruto summoned gamahiro because of the contract which minato has naruto has never summoned ma and pa and has not used frog song so you assume he cant use it that argument is fallacious....this statement in the databook is not comparative or hyperbole it is simple statement of fact that you are refuting to suit your argument..fact is he can summon all the frogs through contract..Kishi himself solidified this in an interview..
Q. How do you choose the characters' names?
A. I think about Japanese nouns and decide which ones might be good as names.

Q. What character would you like as your girlfriend?
A. No one. It's characters I create, after all...

Q. If you were a girl, who would you like as your boyfriend?
A. Shikamaru. He's smart and looks like he might be successful in life.
--------------------
--------------------
**About the characters**

Q. Do members of Akatsuki pairs sleep somewhere at night?
A. They get two single rooms.

Q. Now that Gaara doesn't have the Ichibi anymore he's unable to use the sand, right?
A. Both the sand and the rings around his eyes are there for good, they can't be taken away.

Q. If a Hyuuga and an Uchiha had a child together, what eyes would s/he get?
A. His right eye would be a Sharingan. Meaning that the left one would be a Byakugan!

Q. If I drank Suigetsu would I get diarrhea?
A. He would just come out from your bottom.

Q. Why is Naruto able to summon Gamakichi if he signed the contract with Gamabunta?
A. Because signing a contract with Gamabunta means that he's able to summon not only him but any toad.

Q. What is Naruto's "new erotic ninjutsu"...?
A. I'd like to draw it one day. I can do it anytime, I just need the editor's approvali.
reveal 
Frog call is another jutsu that was aimed at the summons whats that got to do with anything ? Frogsong is the jutsu that has a long range and anyone in range is caught in it as were the paths there is absolutely no proof that ps will protect madara from the sound and this assumption is as baseless as saying ps will protect madara from narutos bijudama rasenshuriken as is there  any proof that it will go through sussano and destroy it....

Madara has in no way tanked somethig more powerfull than a super bijudama he tanked shinsensenjus barrage that was migitated by the bladedamas a bijuudama four sizes that of the one the emaciated kurama made is far above that kind of firepower..Funny thing about that this bijuudama was created almost instantly by an emaciated half kurama and is hundreds of times bigger then a standard bijudama......its well above the shinsensenjus attack..and is concentrated one shot compared to the punches that are a series of attack thus expells its energy in one shot example a t80tank can take a pound of c4 without damage you can hit it with the a pound charge in a series 10 times its not getting through the armour but put 50pounds of c4 in one charge and the tank is scrapmetal...Not to mention a fresh kurama should easily create one atleast 4times this size.
.....[9.2]

Minato used that on a kurama controlled by obito not a wild kyuubi...and minato in base is capable of crossing konoha in one shunshin faster then kurama can strike...same kurama who blitzed sm naruto with an atatck..he saved naruto before obito could strike...this was in base you have seen bm narutos shunshin now minato is far above naruto in base get the idea? minato in base with his shunshin managed to put a marker multiple miles away in the sea markers all around the juubi and teleported the bijudama before anyone registered his presence....all before tobirama even reached the battlefield who was claimed fastest shiobi in madaras time..

Baika
Baika
Baika

Kakashi kamuid onto obito and was about strike minato was near the tailed beasts hundreds of meters away and before kakashi could strike minato shunshined and stopped him this is in kcm..


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## Deer Lord (Dec 10, 2014)

Huh?
When BM runs out Kurama *always* has to re-gather chakra before he can use it again
it's just that 5-8 minues of intense fighting drains his chakra when naruto isn't experienced with the mode.
but it is chakra dependant none the less.

kage bunshin splits your chakra,so it only makes it worse.

and about retreating to a remote location, OP never specified if minato has any marks placed outside the batlefield, so we can't just assume that.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 10, 2014)

Deer Lord said:


> Only instance when it was used was on obito.
> If it indeed works the other way around I would imagine touching a gaint fox would have been alot easier than a high level ninja that can phase through stuff.



Because he was fighting Obito maybe lol. Obito interrupted Minatos encounter with the nine tails, so he didn't exactly get to do anything against it, before Obito intervened.

Who knows, maybe that's why Obito intervened, to prevent him from breaking the contract.

@SSMG
doesn't matter if it was covered in Susanoo's as long as the Susanoo is a separate layer, FTG can spear eat the user from Susanoo. Gaara proved to us that Susanoo and its user can be separated, think are not linked together. And I think (if I remember correctly), when minato saved Naruto and Sasuke, he left a portion of Sasuke's Susanoo behind, in the next panel, Sasuke's Susanoo was completely gone. Minato has shown that he can choose what to teleport with and what he wants to leave behind. Same thing when he teleported Kurama, he was standing on top of Bunta, and without directly touching Kurama himself, he was able to teleport Kurama away and leave Bunta behind. Or when he teleported Naruto and Sasuke away and left Obito behind. No different from teleported Susanoo away and leaving kurama behind or the other way around.


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## Arles Celes (Dec 10, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Considering madars strongest attack equals a simple bijudama from an average bijuu yeah..while kurama is capable of firepower ps could only dream of....bee was hesitant to fight the bijuu when they were in obitos control he knew they were not the enemy he tried to immobilize son goku with his tentacles when he got serious he bitch slapped gonbi several blocks away...not to mention he was being harrased by v2 jinchuriki at the same time..
> 
> .funny thing kurama might be capable of making giant bijuudama but him in madaras control was not..its pretty selfexplanatory bm narutos feat far eclipse kyuubis...every facet of his abilities is enhanced while the weaknesses are countered such as genjutsu...who do you think wins between bm naruto and kyuubi yeah thought so....



So...you believe that the best Madara can do is equal one of the weaker bijuus like Sanbi which was owned by Deidara or maaaybe Hachibi whom the 3rd Raikage could match one on one?

Which means that Madara is only Deidara or 3rd Raikage level at best.

Dat clone defeated a Madara level Raikage. 

Okay...


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## sabre320 (Dec 10, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> So...you believe that the best Madara can do is equal one of the weaker bijuus like Sanbi which was owned by Deidara or maaaybe Hachibi whom the 3rd Raikage could match one on one?
> 
> Which means that Madara is only Deidara or 3rd Raikage level at best.
> 
> ...



Ur twisting my words to suit ur agenda....madaras offensive prowess matches that of a average bijuu that correlated with his statement..his defensive prowess is above though..he sure as hell does not match kurama though..


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## Arles Celes (Dec 10, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Ur twisting my words to suit ur agenda....madaras offensive prowess matches that of a average bijuu that correlated with his statement..his defensive prowess is above though..he sure as hell does not match kurama though..



Im more curious/amused than interested in agendas.

How do you come to the conclusion that madaras ps is more durable than most bijuus apart from kurama? Didnt hachibi survive his full power bijuudama reflected by juubi while madaras ps can be destroyed completely by a normal bijuudama? Sooo if hachibi has a similar level of offensuve power(even greater given how it could shot multiple bijuudamas) and a superior defensive power then why didnt bee solo madara? Did he also hold back because madara is a bro?

Also the 3rd raikage could match a bloodlusted hachibi. Which should include those multiple bijuudamas and stuff. So how had the raikage survived and why he is not believed by so many to be on madaras level?


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## SSMG (Dec 10, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> His son was dying and madara was about to take his sons last lifeline there was no time ad he was desperate...naruto dosent use frogsong dosent change the fact that he an if he is out of options..
> 
> Actually everything indicates it will go through ps sound travels through perfect sussano just fine it has no properties that stop sound from travelling through it...frog song is a genjutsu that travels through sound..
> 
> ...



So you concede even when Minato is desperate and his sons life is on the line he will not summon the toads to use frog song. And sure Naruto has the option to do it but its not an ice tactic for him either.

No until we see frog song go through a solid I won't buy it. Killer bees shades block light based attack and he can still see fine I see no reason why sound based attacks are any different.

Has he ever showed the ability to do so?  He can make bijuudamas since he helped Naruto by adding in more energy to one but has he ever shown the ability to make giant ones?

Do you have proof that the shinju attack isn't as great as the bijuu damage? It created the massive mountain range busting level of attack which is similar to the super sized bijuu damage.

Also do you have anything to base that tank analogy off of? 

Why do you think Madara is completely outclassed as soon as it gets to cqc? He fought evenly with hashirama for hours after losing his kyuubiPS so that's a little unfounded.


I'm taking a neutral stance on the matter for BD RS. Do you have proof of your claim is basically what I'm asking.

Clones get the chakra split up so if a person used let's say 60% of there max chakra for a shunshin then a clone could not do this since it'd only have 50%. This is just an example BTW I'm not saying shunshin takes up that much. It may but iunno tbh.


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## sabre320 (Dec 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> So you concede even when Minato is desperate and his sons life is on the line he will not summon the toads to use frog song. And sure Naruto has the option to do it but its not an ice tactic for him either.
> 
> No until we see frog song go through a solid I won't buy it. Killer bees shades block light based attack and he can still see fine I see no reason why sound based attacks are any different.
> 
> ...



Madara was one step away from taking the kyuubi from obito his sons last lifeline you really think he had enough time to summon ma and pa and prepare frog song...what u on abt?

Are u saying sound cannot travel through solids,......physics bow before u sir....u can deny it if you want but fact is sound passes through sussano as vocal communication takes place and frog song is a genjutsu based on song.. we have seen before sound jutsu affect through sussano and ps has no defense against it burden of proof is on you and u are making a fallacious argument..
_poison-like_
_poison-like_
_poison-like_

sound passes through sussano...ur making fanfic by denying it..

Why would he be able to make a giant one he has the same kurama as naruto and kurama has the same abilities and ca make giant bijudama whats the problem here? Ur making petty arguments now..

First off look at the explosion does it look concentrated to u its going everywhich way haywire ....super bijudama is a concentrated attack that unleashes all its energy in one shot......lets take a different approach....a soldier wears a bulletproof vest and is fired upon by a 9mm automatic pistol 15 rounds are fired into his vest but one go through...then he is fired upon by an ak47 high density round and it bores through..raikage keeps battering madaras v2 sussano but cant get through tsunade gets one good hit with leverage and crushes it get it?

Minato has ftg some of the best reactions in the manga and was able to troll v2 a madara will get tagged in cqc and then its a deathsentence...hashirama is neither a speedster neither a taijutsu specialist...minato is a ftg user and fastest of the hokage..in cqc madara could barely react to v1 a and could only block..
Dude dont make ludicrous comparisons to think ems madaras ps can tank a bijudama rasenshuriken is lunacy _poison-like_

Clones are able to perform the same jutsu eg narutos clones performing frs same as him only when jutsu require chakra greater then the clones capacity can problems occur..


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## sabre320 (Dec 10, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Im more curious/amused than interested in agendas.
> 
> How do you come to the conclusion that madaras ps is more durable than most bijuus apart from kurama? Didnt hachibi survive his full power bijuudama reflected by juubi while madaras ps can be destroyed completely by a normal bijuudama? Sooo if hachibi has a similar level of offensuve power(even greater given how it could shot multiple bijuudamas) and a superior defensive power then why didnt bee solo madara? Did he also hold back because madara is a bro?
> 
> Also the 3rd raikage could match a bloodlusted hachibi. Which should include those multiple bijuudamas and stuff. So how had the raikage survived and why he is not believed by so many to be on madaras level?



What are you talking about madaras perfect sussano was never destroyed by the kyuubis standard bijudama....it blocked it unhurt and covered kyuubi....hashiramas wood golem and dragon were destroyed...
hachibi was badly damaged by his bijudama so much in fact that he had to go out of bm...again ur making ur own arguments to suit ur preconcieved notions.. hachibi never used his bijudama as hachibi remembered they both passed out with their best attacks unused..


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## SSMG (Dec 10, 2014)

@sabre Minato would die before summoning ma and pa as is canon thanks for pointing that out sabre. He also won't use ma and pa against juubidara or juubitobas well.

I know All about how sounds affect solids. They affect materials that are more dense then less dense materials l. But we know that sound will be negeted after a certain depth brag are less of the material. I know all about the physics behind it I went to school for engineering. 
All I'm saying is that we have seen people who can see but not be affected by sight based techniques no reason why sounds is different.
That was ribcage susanno which isn't at all comparable to perfect susanno.

Has he made a giant one? I don't think he has. He has contributed to narutos bsm bijuu damage.. But I contribute to my buddy in the gym when I spot him when he's benching three plates a side.. That in no way means I can bench three plates a side.

Well bothbthe super bijuu dama and madaras ps kyubbi have about the same level destruction/durability. But u got a point about the aka. A bullet proof vest can withstand many 9mm shots bit one 50cal will most likely go right through it blike butter.  

Hashirama outran and dodged  a bijuudama . on the outskirts battle dome they calcd this to be like mach 230 or so and ems Madara is equal thus scaled to him in speed. Do he's no slouch in speed in the least bit. Also Madara easily blocked v2 Eis full speed. That wasn't v1 or else he wouldn't have needed oonki to boost his speed. He'd just go v2 and blitz but that wasn't the case. He said he needed more speed.

All I'm saying is we've never seen PS get hit by a BD RS have we? That link neither confirms nor Denys that PS will be busted by one. RSBD explosion was at least countryblevel but the explosion that destroyed Sasuke PS was much larger still.

Yeah they can preform the same jutsu if there chakra supply allows them too. But if Minato uses 90%  of his chakra a clone can't use that level of jutsu because it'd have at most 50% of its chakra. The reason Naruto clones could use the rasenshuriken is because his chakra pool as a perfect host was massive enough that RS isn't that draining on him.


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## sabre320 (Dec 11, 2014)

SSMG said:


> @sabre Minato would die before summoning ma and pa as is canon thanks for pointing that out sabre. He also won't use ma and pa against juubidara or juubitobas well.
> 
> I know All about how sounds affect solids. They affect materials that are more dense then less dense materials l. But we know that sound will be negeted after a certain depth brag are less of the material. I know all about the physics behind it I went to school for engineering.
> All I'm saying is that we have seen people who can see but not be affected by sight based techniques no reason why sounds is different.
> ...



What the hell are u talking abt he did not have time to summon ma and pa.....not that he would be dead before it...he was able to react to gated gais speed in coordination..not to mention he had one arm couldnt make the summoning..

blown away this is not ribcage sussano stop being stubborn..

An emaciated kurama was able to make a bijudama much larger then itself theres a fresh kurama perfectly synced with a jinchuriki with a master of chakra control why in gods name dont u think he is able to make a giant bijudama? is kyuubi suddenly impotent or something in your mind? 

Fact is hashirama is much slower then minato he managed to shunshin a hundred miles into the sea place markers around the juubi and teleported the juubidama and was still there before hashirama and the other kage.. madara reacted to v1 and could only block not counter attack..then v2 said i guess i need to go faster hence using his full speed..lightened a was easily blitzing madara and he was camping in sussano..one touch in cqc and madara is marked and thats that..

Sometimes you have to use common sense and see whats infront of u that that ps of sasuke was powered by the sage of the six paths chakra and the sharinegan..and the bijuus chakra...why are u comparing it with ems madaras..should i compare bm minatos avatar with final narutos bm avatar?

Shunshin is not a chakra intensive technique especially when a master of chakra control and shunshin in minato....bm reserves are not going to be affected by shunshin dude..


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 11, 2014)

Why all this talk about minato summoning toads when it requires two hands?


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## SSMG (Dec 11, 2014)

He had more than enough time to summon ma and pa. He never summoned them during his entire fight with Obito and he had plenty of time to summon them after his warp off the homage statue. He had time to summon them after teleporting kyuubi out of the village as well. I will concede he couldn't summon them against juubidara as he had one arm. But two armed Minato will die before calling ma and pa when he has more than ample time to summon them. He shunshin a crossed the village and summoned a giant toad in the time take took kurama to form a bijuudama.
 Also only reason why Minato could tell in for gated guy was because of lees throw.  I don't know why you brought this up though.

You're right that link you posted wasn't ribcage susanno because susanno hadn't been introduced by chapter 170 yet...

So you concede Minato hasn't shown the ability to do so. You made a claim you should be able to prove it when asked. Which you haven't done so yet. 
And it doesn't really matter as ems kurama PS is country level durability and thus will tank the country level attack

Fact is hashirama isn't slow as you're making him out to be. He's mach 230.
Madara reacted to v2 Ei. Ei never used v1 against Madara I don't know where you're getting this from. 
Minato won't be able to get a touch on Madara though as he will be in PS kurama. If it gets to cqc Madara has many means of keep Minato at bag like his genjutsu skill giant katons and partial susanno as well.

Have we ever seen a PS get busted by the technique you claimed it could? No. Then you're claim isn't proven. I will admit I forgot the final PS had all the bijuus chakra(but if that boost durability then Madaras having kurama in it gets a boost too) in it but Sasukes earlier susanno is no different from Madaras durability wise. Unless you can prove it is.

The fact is a clones max shunshin can at most only be 50% speed of the oringials max shunshin.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 11, 2014)

SSMG said:


> He had more than enough time to summon ma and pa. He never summoned them during his entire fight with Obito and he had plenty of time to summon them after his warp off the homage statue. He had time to summon them after teleporting kyuubi out of the village as well. I will concede he couldn't summon them against juubidara as he had one arm. But two armed Minato will die before calling ma and pa when he has more than ample time to summon them. He shunshin a crossed the village and summoned a giant toad in the time take took kurama to form a bijuudama.
> Also only reason why Minato could tell in for gated guy was because of lees throw.  I don't know why you brought this up though.
> 
> You're right that link you posted wasn't ribcage susanno because susanno hadn't been introduced by chapter 170 yet...
> ...



And i wanna add that even Madara's mokuton clones reacted to Raikage.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 11, 2014)

BM minato stomps he wouldn't even be touched in this fight


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## StarWanderer (Dec 11, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> BM minato stomps he wouldn't even be touched in this fight



Since Madara's combat speed is higher than BM Minato's, Minato will be touched. BM Minato cant do anything to PS, since it easily withstood TBB from Full Kurama. And its slashes probably can give Minato lots of trouble if we are talking about, lets say, 10-20 slashes. But in Kurama state, he may be durable enough to withstand that since Naruto in Kurama state withstood 10 tails attack. In that case, Madara can outlast him to the moment when his Kurama half needs to restore chakra. And than, he'd kill Minato.


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## sabre320 (Dec 11, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Since Madara's combat speed is higher than BM Minato's, Minato will be touched. BM Minato cant do anything to PS, since it easily withstood TBB from Full Kurama. And its slashes probably can give Minato lots of trouble if we are talking about, lets say, 10-20 slashes. But in Kurama state, he may be durable enough to withstand that since Naruto in Kurama state withstood 10 tails attack. In that case, Madara can outlast him to the moment when his Kurama half needs to restore chakra. And than, he'd kill Minato.



 keep on going sweet child never change


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## sabre320 (Dec 11, 2014)

SSMG said:


> He had more than enough time to summon ma and pa. He never summoned them during his entire fight with Obito and he had plenty of time to summon them after his warp off the homage statue. He had time to summon them after teleporting kyuubi out of the village as well. I will concede he couldn't summon them against juubidara as he had one arm. But two armed Minato will die before calling ma and pa when he has more than ample time to summon them. He shunshin a crossed the village and summoned a giant toad in the time take took kurama to form a bijuudama.
> Also only reason why Minato could tell in for gated guy was because of lees throw.  I don't know why you brought this up though.
> 
> You're right that link you posted wasn't ribcage susanno because susanno hadn't been introduced by chapter 170 yet...
> ...



Fact is mate minato can summon all the frogs as i provided ample evidence in the interview and databook...if he gets pushed too far minato will summon them ..he has the ability and can use it ma and pa can use frogsong ...you can disagree but dosent change the fact he has the capability...lets agree to disagree ok...

It was because of lees throw but minato had to react to speeds at 8th gate gais level and intercept the attack while gai was going at full speed as minato told him to teleport in make contact with the guodama and teleport out before gai even moved..dont discount his feat while crediting only lee..

Dude use some common sense here minato has the same kurama as narutos bm he is a perfect jinchuriki with synchronization when a emaciated kurama can make the giant bijudama why cant a fresh kurama in bm with minato make it when he displayed he can make bijudama with naruto if he couldnt the ratio would be wrong and the bijudama would stabilize some things dont need to be put on a plate to understand,..

Are you joking mate ps is not amped by kurama he is just coated with ps it has the same durability and if you believe ems madars ps has country level durability god help u..

Well okay if hashirama is 230 mach then that means minato is still much faster as his performance upon the entrance of the hokage proved...he shunshined a hundred miles into the sea placed a marker placed markers around the juubi teleported the juubidama while no one registered his presece and still hashirama made it to the battlefield much later while he did none of those things...Minato was casually trolling a in v2 while bee was there to help...madara could only block the raikages attacks..he layed a mark on a far tougher target in obito with phasing and kamui with no knowledge he did not fall into genjutsu either madara is getting tagged in cqc...

Here is the panel where sound goes through sussano enjoy.,..
Link removed
Link removed

Madara ismerely covering kurama my god stop making ridiculous claims...he does not have rikudos chakra neither the sharinnegan and does not siphin the chakra from the tailed beasts through the use of sharrinegan like sasuke....

Then why can narutos clones make frs the same as real naruto?? and even if we take the 50% argument into account its more then enough considering base minatos shunshin feats that blitzed kurama in obitos control and his shunshin feats of far outpacing the hokage..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 11, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Fact is mate minato can summon all the frogs as i provided ample evidence in the interview and databook...if he gets pushed too far minato will summon them ..he has the ability and can use it ma and pa can use frogsong ...you can disagree but dosent change the fact he has the capability...lets agree to disagree ok...
> 
> It was because of lees throw but minato had to react to speeds at 8th gate gais level and intercept the attack while gai was going at full speed as minato told him to teleport in make contact with the guodama and teleport out before gai even moved..dont discount his feat while crediting only lee..
> 
> ...



1. I realy dont know why are you bringing here Minato's feat of beating Raikage. It is obvious that Raikage was far weaker than during Shippuden. He trained for all those years, he managed to develop tailed beast level chakra and he learned Body Flicker ability. And another fact about Raikage that you dont care about - young Raikage is featless in terms of speed.

2. The fact Minato did it faster to the battlefield than the other kages proves nothing at all. His Hiraishin was the fastest. His travel speed was the fastest. No kage can teleport, except Tobirama. But what about his combat speed? Lets see - he did nothing to Juubito when they had a confrontation. Juubito easily beat him and cut his arm off. And that was BM Minato, but he still did nothing at all. And lets see what Tobirama did when he had confrontation with Juubito - he put a teleportation formula on Juubito and taged him with several explosives. Tobirama, who was clearly inferior to Madara, was faster than BM Minato in terms of combat speed.

3. Perfect Susanoo has durability enough to withstand TBBs from BM Minato. PS withstood a TBB from Full Kurama with easy. TBB didnt do even a scratch on PS. Madara can tank everything BM Minato has.

4. He probably put those marks in the sea because it was a part of the plan, since they were going against 10 Tails. Proves nothing at all.

5. Minato managed to teleport with Truth-Seeking Balls because of his travel speed. I have no problem with it, since, because he can teleport, his travel speed is probably the best. But it doesnt give him an advantege because his combat speed is clearly not the highest. Show me TSBs speed feats please. 

6. Its nice how you bring here the frog song, but dont bring here Ma and Pa's durability feats. Prove they can withstand at least 1 hit from PS blade.  Or prove they are fast enough to dodge it.

7. And now about Ei. Madara blocked his punch and that is impressive. If he had Hiraishin he could do the same as Minato did, since his combat speed feats are more impressive. He reacted to prime Raikage easily, his clones reacted to prime Raikage easily, he blitzed SM Naruto and Sai without ayes easily and he dodged Gaara's sand that reacted to Raikage easily. His combat speed feats are superior to those of Minato because Raikage, at that time, was far more superior to his former, younger self that fought Minato. Plus, Tobirama, who, since i brought a proof to that, was faster than BM Minato, was clearly inferior to Madara. 

8. Minato isnt faster than Madara, cant do anything to his PS, cant keep Kurama State that can withstand PS slashes for a very long time, since Kurama needs to restore chakra, is not as intelligent as Madara, doesnt have the same amount of experience Madara has and Madara knows about Hiraishin technique and, i assume, has experience of fighting it. 

Madara is superior to BM Minato. But i expect you to disagree. Well, bring it on, kid. Prove i am wrong.


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## sabre320 (Dec 11, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> 1. I realy dont know why are you bringing here Minato's feat of beating Raikage. It is obvious that Raikage was far weaker than during Shippuden. He trained for all those years, he managed to develop tailed beast level chakra and he learned Body Flicker ability. And another fact about Raikage that you dont care about - young Raikage is featless in terms of speed.
> 
> 2. The fact Minato did it faster to the battlefield than the other kages proves nothing at all. His Hiraishin was the fastest. His travel speed was the fastest. But what about his combat speed? Lets see - he did nothing to Juubito when they had a confrontation. Juubito easily beat him and cut his arm off. And that was BM Minato, but he still did nothing at all. And lets see what Tobirama did when he had confrontation with Juubito - he put a teleportation formula on Juubito and taged him with several explosives. Tobirama, who was clearly inferior to Madara, was faster than BM Minato in terms of combat speed.
> 
> ...



ck this is dedicated to u Link removed


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## StarWanderer (Dec 11, 2014)

> Link removed



Oh, i wont stop believin'. I wont stop believin' that you will respond to my post because i want to keep dancing with you. But it seems you wont. Because you cant, because you lost this debate already.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 11, 2014)

madara grossly outclasses minato. portrayal puts characters on madaras level in a completely different realm of power than minato.

a bijudama from six paths naruto merely took off a small portion off of the face of a perfect susano. the bijudama came from a six paths senjutsu enhanced kurama.

minato cant take down a perfect susano no matter what he does and its pathetically obvious. madara could just use his susano to fly and trollishly dodge the bijudama although that isnt even necessary. 

V3 susano would be capable of fighting off minato in his full kurama mode. perfect susano turns this into a hilarious slaughterfest.


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## Rocky (Dec 11, 2014)

Edo Minato can dodge Perfect Susnao'o forever.


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## Jagger (Dec 11, 2014)

Minato doesn't have to destroy Perfect Susano'O to actually outlast Madara.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Edo Minato can dodge Perfect Susnao'o forever.



Yeah, especially when 5 kage couldnt dodge it and especially when Madara's combat speed and reaction is higher than that of Minato.



> Minato doesn't have to destroy Perfect Susano'O to actually outlast Madara.



And how can he outlast him without even destroying Susanoo?


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## Veracity (Dec 12, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Minato doesn't have to destroy Perfect Susano'O to actually outlast Madara.



I doubt Minato's outlasting Madara purely based on his arsenal. Warping Sussano swords and firing off BD'S takes more chakra then maintaining PS and the Sharingan .


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## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I doubt Minato's outlasting Madara purely based on his arsenal. Warping Sussano swords and firing off BD'S takes more chakra then maintaining PS and the Sharingan .



And its highly doubdful that he can warp Susanoo swords.


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## sabre320 (Dec 12, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> madara grossly outclasses minato. portrayal puts characters on madaras level in a completely different realm of power than minato.
> 
> a bijudama from six paths naruto merely took off a small portion off of the face of a perfect susano. the bijudama came from a six paths senjutsu enhanced kurama.
> 
> ...



Wtf!!! wow jesus and they call minato fans bad....to hype madara so much just because he was a rival of hashi...ahhaha completely different realm the same ps whose sword strike can be stopped with one tail from bm avatar...the same bm avatar who can produce bijudama of multi mountain range...

Why in gods name are u so desperate to hype hashis rival that you are giving him feats from rikudo sasukes ps who had sharrinegan??Do u really think they are equal...madaras ps was not capable of flight this is pathetically obvious why didnt he in gods name use it against hashirama who had no ranged techniques to catch him in the sky..

okay now ur just being a baby about thisck....v3 sussano fighting off bm wow now iv seen it all...might want to add this to ur hall of fail..
he squashes it like a bug this is madaras complete sussano enhanced by senjutsu
the arena 
Stop the wank mate..


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## sabre320 (Dec 12, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I doubt Minato's outlasting Madara purely based on his arsenal. Warping Sussano swords and firing off BD'S takes more chakra then maintaining PS and the Sharingan .



He has no need to outlast madara...an emiciated kurama running on empty was able to make a bijudama this size in a sec thats multi mountain range...a fresh bm is capable of making one atleast 4 times that..do the math..

bm naruto is capable of casually capable of making bijudama of this size while using bm clones..
the arena dont overhype ps durability..


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## sabre320 (Dec 12, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I doubt Minato's outlasting Madara purely based on his arsenal. Warping Sussano swords and firing off BD'S takes more chakra then maintaining PS and the Sharingan .



And why would minato not be capable of outlasting when he has kuramas reserves ,...


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## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Wtf!!! wow jesus and they call minato fans bad....to hype madara so much just because he was a rival of hashi...ahhaha completely different realm the same ps whose sword strike can be stopped with one tail from bm avatar...the same bm avatar who can produce bijudama of multi mountain range...
> 
> Why in gods name are u so desperate to hype hashis rival that you are giving him feats from rikudo sasukes ps who had sharrinegan??Do u really think they are equal...madaras ps was not capable of flight this is pathetically obvious why didnt he in gods name use it against hashirama who had no ranged techniques to catch him in the sky..
> 
> ...



And why are you bringing here feats of Naruto's Kurama avatar with SoSP's chakra? i dont know.

But at the same time, i agree that PS slashes wont do much against Minato's Kurama avatar. Or maybe they will, if there are 20 slashes. I realy dont know.

But ok, let us dance:

1. The size doesnt mean power. And Madara's PS *easily*, *effortlessly* lolwithstood TBB from *Full Kurama*. Minato cant destroy Madara's PS.

2. Madara can blow up any TBB using his Perfect Susanoo swords. He slashes - and TBB has been blown up half-way to Madara's PS.

3. Minato's Kurama half needs to restore its chakra. Madara can fight non-stop for the whole day. And only Kurama's avatar can withstand PS slashes.

4. Madara's combat speed is higher than that of Minato. And i wont even bother to explain in this post, why. Since i already did it on multiple occasions. Minato's teleportation wont help him and Madara can also predict his movements.

5. And, finally, Madara is far more intelligent and far more experienced. And he knows about Hiraishin.

BM Minato cant beat EMS Madara. But i bet you will wank again. You better stop wanking and bring here some proofs if you wanna prove BM Minato can beat Madara, boy.


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## ARGUS (Dec 12, 2014)

Madara stands no chance, 
the kurama avatars offense and defense are on a whole other level to PS, 



Rocky said:


> Edo Minato can dodge Perfect Susnao'o forever.



Nope, Minato has to bust PS in-order to win this, no way in hell can he ''dodge'' PS, let alone forever, 
him using BM only once means that he has a time limit just how naruto did, as the moment he runs out of his BM, he dies to PS, 
he is not evading the AOE of multiple mountain cutting slashes, and no way in hell is he tanking them without the kurama avatar,


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## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Madara stands no chance,
> the kurama avatars offense and defense are on a whole other level to PS,
> 
> 
> ...



Kurama avatar cant be kept for a very long time, since Kurama needs to restore its chakra, while Madara can fight a day non-stop. And PS can withstand TBB's easily. Plus, Madara can blow up any TBB using his PS slashes from a distance. 

BM Minato cant beat EMS Madara.


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## Jagger (Dec 12, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> And how can he outlast him without even destroying Susanoo?


Simple. Warping around pretty much forever given his large pool reserves. If we compare to what the Kyuubi is capable of with just half of its chakra, then, hypothetically speaking, Minato's and Yin Kyuubi's chakra pool together should be able to do something similar or, at least, close to similar.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 12, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Madara stands no chance,
> the kurama avatars offense and defense are on a whole other level to PS,
> 
> 
> ...



Hashirama was doing just fine dodging slashes, outrunning Susanoo Kurama and tailed beast bombs on foot.

Yet minato can't despite his superior speed and space time ninjutsu?


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## Veracity (Dec 12, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> And why would minato not be capable of outlasting when he has kuramas reserves ,...



I've never actually said that Minato loses this. I haven't even voiced my opinion yet tbh.

The TBB in that panel was created by Naruto + BM bee. And that was created by a Naruto with better chakra control then minato.

Madara has around the chakra of 50% Kurama im guessing, considering he was able to fight Hashirama using Bjuii sized Sussano for a full 24 hours before he was exhausted way back when he just received his EMS.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 12, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Simple. Warping around pretty much forever given his large pool reserves. If we compare to what the Kyuubi is capable of with just half of its chakra, then, hypothetically speaking, Minato's and Yin Kyuubi's chakra pool together should be able to do something similar or, at least, close to similar.



It will be very hard for Minato to warp around. Madara is faster in terms of combat speed and can predict Minato's movements by his EMS.



> Hashirama was doing just fine dodging slashes, outrunning Susanoo Kurama and tailed beast bombs on foot.
> 
> Yet minato can't despite his superior speed and space time ninjutsu?



Hashirama is faster than Minato in terms of combat speed. And his mokuton seemingly can absorb shockwaves from PS slashes. Madara is also faster and has sharingan with which he can predict Minato's movements.


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## sabre320 (Dec 12, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I've never actually said that Minato loses this. I haven't even voiced my opinion yet tbh.
> 
> The TBB in that panel was created by Naruto + BM bee. And that was created by a Naruto with better chakra control then minato.
> 
> Madara has around the chakra of 50% Kurama im guessing, considering he was able to fight Hashirama using Bjuii sized Sussano for a full 24 hours before he was exhausted way back when he just received his EMS.


Madara has nowhere near the reserves of 50% kurama...kurama has more chakra then the other bijuu combined..sussano is a result of his high quaity yin chakra its a byproduct of high quality chakra not quantity..for e.g itachis sussano is much bigger then 3tails narutos cloak but he has much more chakra in it..

I think i provided a panel of emaciated kurama producing a bijudama much bigger then itself while having almost all its chakra stolen
Link removed
...a fresh kurama should easily be capable of making one 3times that...


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## Deer Lord (Dec 12, 2014)

That's 50% kurama sabre, you have to remember that 100% kurama is like thrice the size of 50% kurama.
So the BD that madara effortlessly blocked *would *have been way bigger than average 50% kurama BD just by size scaling

Edit:
scan for comparison:
Link removed


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## Veracity (Dec 12, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Madara has nowhere near the reserves of 50% kurama...kurama has more chakra then the other bijuu combined..sussano is a result of his high quaity yin chakra its a byproduct of high quality chakra not quantity..for e.g itachis sussano is much bigger then 3tails narutos cloak but he has much more chakra in it..
> 
> I think i provided a panel of emaciated kurama producing a bijudama much bigger then itself while having almost all its chakra stolen
> even knock out Kage with its attacks
> ...a fresh kurama should easily be capable of making one 3times that...



Hashirama's chakra reserved were compared to Naruto's and Madara battled Hashirama almost to a standstill. To be point where they were both exhausted . So he has a lot of chakra. And to make matters worse, his arsenal is a lot less taxing then Minato's. 

The example you provided is terrible considering alive Itachi cannot maintain Sussano for long at all in comparison to Naruto who could probably hold his 3 tailed cloak for hours upon hours.

That's not the panel you provided before .


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## sabre320 (Dec 13, 2014)

Deer Lord said:


> That's 50% kurama sabre, you have to remember that 100% kurama is like thrice the size of 50% kurama.
> So the BD that madara effortlessly blocked *would *have been way bigger than average 50% kurama BD just by size scaling
> 
> Edit:
> ...



and yet the explosion was the same size as a normal bijudama


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## sabre320 (Dec 13, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Hashirama's chakra reserved were compared to Naruto's and Madara battled Hashirama almost to a standstill. To be point where they were both exhausted . So he has a lot of chakra. And to make matters worse, his arsenal is a lot less taxing then Minato's.
> 
> The example you provided is terrible considering alive Itachi cannot maintain Sussano for long at all in comparison to Naruto who could probably hold his 3 tailed cloak for hours upon hours.
> 
> That's not the panel you provided before .



Madara fought 24 hours using this sussano not bijusized one..with no damage. Lets say the avatars go down for both minato goes kcm and can easily outlast madara...not to mention kurama constantly replenishes his reserves and can manifest the avatar again in minutes...he is a constant chakra battery simple ftg is one of the most chakra efficient tehniques....not to mention minato in base can still go sm to replenish his reserves..albit in bursts..i meant the amount of chakra in their shrouds..itachis sussano is much bigger but the amount of chakra that is consisted in the shroud is much less compared to the v1 shroud from kurama considering a simple touch from kurama even without the shroud was capable of giving kakashi 3 times his reserves..itachi has subpar reserves yet can make a chakra construct that is much larger then v1..


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## Deer Lord (Dec 13, 2014)

and you've concluded that because...?
BD are made of chakra, if it's larger then it holds more chakra
that was your argument to begin with


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## sabre320 (Dec 13, 2014)

Deer Lord said:


> and you've concluded that because...?
> BD are made of chakra, if it's larger then it holds more chakra
> that was your argument to begin with



The fact is the regular bijudama produced by full kurama are about the same size as the ones produced by bm or are slightly bigger but the difference is insignificant otherwise the explosion would be larger..
with no damage.
same as the ones from the normal bijuu one mountain


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## Deer Lord (Dec 13, 2014)

...
You can't actually claim that since you know...those are not the same mountains

Unless all mountains in naruto-verse are same-sized?


You can however scale them to kurama himself. In which case they would be bigger.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

BM Minato likely has super bijudama (they are charging it here with no damage. ). PS cant survive it. Super bijudama is 100 times bigger than normal.


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## Deer Lord (Dec 13, 2014)

that's a scan of both naruto and minto charging together, minato cannot produce somthing of thsi size himself.

Oh, and madara isn't going to be sitting and birdwatching while minato charges up something like that.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

If Minato creates a gap between him and Madara he will have enough time to charge it. And with hiraishin he for sure can create it.


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## Kai (Dec 13, 2014)

People are talking about Minato outlasting Madara when Bijuu Mode only lasts for a few minutes? Naruto's initial sync with Kurama was only five minutes.


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## ARGUS (Dec 13, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Kurama avatar cant be kept for a very long time, since Kurama needs to restore its chakra, while Madara can fight a day non-stop. And PS can withstand TBB's easily.


Doesnt maatter when Minato can bust PS wiith TBB barrages, and comfortably block PS slashes with his tails, 


> Plus, Madara can blow up any TBB using his PS slashes from a distance.


And what good would that do?
especially when Minato can just bombard more TBB during the debris, 
and that would literally ensure that madaras PS gets busted


> BM Minato cant beat EMS Madara.


If madara lacks the kyuubi he doesnt stand much of a chance 

 - PS slashes are blocked by the tails of the kurama avatar, and are tanked with no damage whatsoever, 

 - once the slashes are blocked, minato then proceeds to bombard madara with continous TBB and blows his PS to pieces, and with minato being able to coordinate his TBB to slam them directly on madaras PS thanks to FTG, just makes this easier for minato 



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Hashirama was doing just fine dodging slashes, outrunning Susanoo Kurama and tailed beast bombs on foot


he *barely* outran a PS-TBB where there was no shockwave at all, 
and even then he had to resort to using rashomon since he couldnt dodge it properly.


> Yet minato can't despite his superior speed and space time ninjutsu?


how is he dodging PS shockwaves, when they sliced multiple mountains that were kilometres away, 
without the kurama avatar, minato dies, its as simple as that,


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## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

> Doesnt maatter when Minato can bust PS wiith TBB barrages, and comfortably block PS slashes with his tails



It does matter, since Minato cant bust PS with TBB barrages. He doesnt have fire power enough to break Madara's Perfect Susanoo. His Susanoo withstood a TBB from Full Kurama that was much bigger and stronger than Kurama Avatar's usual TBB's. His Susanoo wasnt even scratched.



> And what good would that do?
> especially when Minato can just bombard more TBB during the debris,
> and that would literally ensure that madaras PS gets busted



And Madara can make more slashes with his PS blades to blow TBB barrages before they hit his PS. Plus, as i explained already, Minato does not have a firepower enough to break Perfect Susanoo.



> If madara lacks the kyuubi he doesnt stand much of a chance
> 
> - PS slashes are blocked by the tails of the kurama avatar, and are tanked with no damage whatsoever,
> 
> - once the slashes are blocked, minato then proceeds to bombard madara with continous TBB and blows his PS to pieces, and with minato being able to coordinate his TBB to slam them directly on madaras PS thanks to FTG, just makes this easier for minato



Madara is faster and has better reaction speed than Minato. Especially when Minato is in Kurama Avatar state. Plus, Madara can predict where TBBs will appear thanks to his EMS. And bring me some proofs Minato can use FTG, or FTG barrier in a combination with Kurama Avatar.



> he barely outran a PS-TBB where there was no shockwave at all,
> and even then he had to resort to using rashomon since he couldnt dodge it properly.



His mokuton could absorb shockwaves, by the way. Or redirect them.



> how is he dodging PS shockwaves, when they sliced multiple mountains that were kilometres away,
> without the kurama avatar, minato dies, its as simple as that



With, or without Kurama Avatar, Minato dies anyway. He does not have a firepower to break PS. And Madara can outlast Minato to the point he wont be able to keep Kurama Avatar state. 

Madara wreks BM Minato.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

Even base Minato can avoid slashes. All depends on markings positions. For example he can jump behind AS or even on top of it if he has marks behind it/on it.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> Even base Minato can avoid slashes. All depends on markings positions. For example he can jump behind AS or even on top of it if he has marks behind it/on it.



Minato doesnt have speed to TFG all around against Madara.


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

Why not?Transportation is instant.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> Why not?Transportation is instant.



Madara has faster speed and reaction times, plus he can predict where Minato will teleport due to his EMS. And slashes are AOE. Minato will die.


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## Veracity (Dec 13, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Madara fought 24 hours using this sussano not bijusized one..Blaze Release-enhanced arrows Lets say the avatars go down for both minato goes kcm and can easily outlast madara...not to mention kurama constantly replenishes his reserves and can manifest the avatar again in minutes...he is a constant chakra battery simple ftg is one of the most chakra efficient tehniques....not to mention minato in base can still go sm to replenish his reserves..albit in bursts..i meant the amount of chakra in their shrouds..itachis sussano is much bigger but the amount of chakra that is consisted in the shroud is much less compared to the v1 shroud from kurama considering a simple touch from kurama even without the shroud was capable of giving kakashi 3 times his reserves..itachi has subpar reserves yet can make a chakra construct that is much larger then v1..



How the hell do you know Madara used that Sussano the entire battle ? He had just acquired EMS, which itself implies that he was using PS. Which is why Hashirama isn't surprised to see PS the next time they battled.  Madara's non PS Sussano is Bjuii sized regardless. He can make it close to the size of Minato's Bjuii form: Blaze Release-enhanced arrows
Blaze Release-enhanced arrows

Except Madaras Sussano is never going down for hours, while Minato can only maintain BM for no more then 5 minutes. And KCM MINATO would get trashed by PS slashes. 

True that Kurama replenishes his chakra but if he uses to much, he reverts to base, which is almost suicide against Madara. And FTG takes a shit Tom of chakra based on the size of the construct being warped. If he's warping large ass PS swords and that massive BM avatar, then he's going to be drained . You are off you're rocker if you think MINATO is able to enter sage mode in this battle. He already stated its useless in battle conserving the time and focus that's needed to enter it. That's why he hardly did in battle against people much weaker then Madara. Against Madara ? Lol no.

I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion that all. Just because a cloak gives Kakashi 3x the amount of chakra = more chakra then large sized Sussano ?


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## Corax (Dec 13, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara has faster speed and reaction times, plus he can predict where Minato will teleport due to his EMS. And slashes are AOE. Minato will die.


He cant see behind his back. If tags are on Susano or behind it he wont be able to predict anything.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2014)

Corax said:


> He cant see behind his back. If tags are on Susano or behind it he wont be able to predict anything.



Madara knows about Hiraishin technique. He is not stupid enough to stay in a position when his back will be opened. He even tolled Hashirama that nobody can walk behind his back, if i'm not mistaken. 

Plus, as i said, slashes are huge AOE. And Minato doesnt possess combat speed comparable to Madara's.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 13, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> he *barely* outran a PS-TBB where there was no shockwave at all,
> and even then he had to resort to using rashomon since he couldnt dodge it properly.
> 
> how is he dodging PS shockwaves, when they sliced multiple mountains that were kilometres away,
> without the kurama avatar, minato dies, its as simple as that,



So why didn't this same tactic work on Hashirama? You still haven't answered this. Why didn't Madara just so slash him to death when Hashirama was on foot? Instead Madara had to chase him, telling Hashirama that he wouldn't let him get away. Realising that he couldn't catch him, he used a tailed beast bomb to close the distance. Too bad that tactic doesn't work on mianto, since the space time barrier will just redirect such projectiles towards Madara.

You say barely outran, but that's still the same thing as out running it. If it was "barely" for Hashirama then it will be "easy" for minato. Hashirama avoided the ps slash that Madara even used by angling himself in a position that avoided the blades strike.


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## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

^ Madara shockwaves didn't work against Hashirama because he can change the battlefield at will and has  tailed beats Bomb tanking Mokuton constructs. He probabaly didn't use slashes against Madara via PS, or the fact that Hashirama's probabaly could have slapped his hands together and created a Mokuton contruct. PS TBB's' work well because they slice through his defenses and then explode.


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## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Doesnt maatter when Minato can bust PS wiith TBB barrages, and comfortably block PS slashes with his tails,
> 
> And what good would that do?
> especially when Minato can just bombard more TBB during the debris,
> ...



regarding dodging ps slashes they are one directional during the battle minato can make bm clones to place markers all over the battlefield using shunshin and ftg...and send one to place a marker several miles away to serve as a safehub or respite point..not to metion during a clash minato can place a tag on ps essentially making him a casual teleport point everytime he swings his sword minato can teleport behind it avoiding the slash..and his shunshin in base covered konohas distance to blitz kurama i doubt ps is much faster then kurama so minato is capable of crossing mountain level distances in shunshin especially in kcm and bm


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## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> ^ Madara shockwaves didn't work against Hashirama because he can change the battlefield at will and has  tailed beats Bomb tanking Mokuton constructs. He probabaly didn't use slashes against Madara via PS, or the fact that Hashirama's probabaly could have slapped his hands together and created a Mokuton contruct. PS TBB's' work well because they slice through his defenses and then explode.



Hashirama has feats of only stopping the slashes through contact when the sword is not physically stopped the shockwave cuts through the mokuton easily..so yeah hashi did infact doddge madaras assault and minato being much faster should be capable of doing so


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## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

Kai said:


> People are talking about Minato outlasting Madara when Bijuu Mode only lasts for a few minutes? Naruto's initial sync with Kurama was only five minutes.



Kurama is a constant chakra battery that constantly replenishes itself and can remake the avatar in minutes...you think madara outlasts kurama


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## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Hashirama has feats of only stopping the slashes through contact when the sword is not physically stopped the shockwave cuts through the mokuton easily..so yeah hashi did infact doddge madaras assault and minato being much faster should be capable of doing so



Provide a scan ?

And if you can catch a sword with an offensive Mokuton structure then a defensive Mokuton structure can block a fucking shockwave. Pretty sure you knew that though.


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## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> How the hell do you know Madara used that Sussano the entire battle ? He had just acquired EMS, which itself implies that he was using PS. Which is why Hashirama isn't surprised to see PS the next time they battled.  Madara's non PS Sussano is Bjuii sized regardless. He can make it close to the size of Minato's Bjuii form: Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> Except Madaras Sussano is never going down for hours, while Minato can only maintain BM for no more then 5 minutes. And KCM MINATO would get trashed by PS slashes.
> ...



Do u have any proof madara used ps it isnt close to bijusizes a senjutsu enhanced sussano from madara was half the size of bm narutos tail..? sasuke when gaining the ems sure as hell didnt manifest the ps instantly..bm minato is perfectly synced with kurama considering he ws in the deathgods stomach for how many years and instantly pulled out kcm and bm unlike naruto..he teleported the juubis bijudama that was much bigger then the juubi in base without breaking a sweat space time barrier is not that taxing...ftg on giant constructs is but that was for base minato this is bm minato...even kcm is a insurmountable difference from base in chakra....
he does not need to teleport bm avatar hundreds of times...he can just teleport when charging a giant bijudama..he can tank all of ps assaults..kcm minato can certainly shunshin around considering hashirama was capable of outrunning kyuubisussanos assaults..not to mention simple ftg is not burningout kcm minato..ps sword strikes are one directional minato can teleport to the opposite side....not to mention during the battle he could send a kcm clone several miles away to put a mark to use that as a charge or respite point..this is incharacter for him when he shunshined 100miles out to the sea to place the marker to teleport the juubidama..he can even tage ps in a clashhile in bm essentially making ps a casual teleport point and teleport behind it when it swings it sword ftgs utility is incredibly hax


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## Corax (Dec 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> ^ Madara shockwaves didn't work against Hashirama because he can change the battlefield at will and has  tailed beats Bomb tanking Mokuton constructs. He probabaly didn't use slashes against Madara via PS, or the fact that Hashirama's probabaly could have slapped his hands together and created a Mokuton contruct. PS TBB's' work well because they slice through his defenses and then explode.


Actually they didn't work at all for unknown reason. Here he swings at him,and Hashirama is wide open to the slash Link removed , Link removed but shockwave does nothing....Yes he caught it with mokujin hands,but sword had started to move way before it,and still no shockwave had been produced.


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## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Provide a scan ?
> 
> And if you can catch a sword with an offensive Mokuton structure then a defensive Mokuton structure can block a fucking shockwave. Pretty sure you knew that though.



catching a sword through touching the blunt sides is quite different then taking the cutting edge..
Link removed
Link removed

This is hashirama whithout is much slower then minato in shunshin...minato layed a marker hunder miles into the sea through shunshin layed markers around the juubi teleported the jubidama while no one registered his presence and then waited and after some time hashi made it to the battlefield...tobi who was faster then hashi said my shunshin pales in comparison to yours..base minato blitzed kurama from across konoha which is larger then a mountain..and ps is around kuramas speed range..kurama was faster then sm naruto..this is kcm minatos shunshin

lets say itachi has comparable reserves to kakashi...itachi is not capable of using a jutsu that requires 3 times his reserves ok a simple tap from kurama gives kakashi 3 times his normal reserves ..a cloak higher thus the cloak has more chakra in quantity then itachis sussano get my argument?


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## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Do u have any proof madara used ps it isnt close to bijusizes a senjutsu enhanced sussano from madara was half the size of bm narutos tail..? sasuke when gaining the ems sure as hell didnt manifest the ps instantly..bm minato is perfectly synced with kurama considering he ws in the deathgods stomach for how many years and instantly pulled out kcm and bm unlike naruto..he teleported the juubis bijudama that was much bigger then the juubi in base without breaking a sweat space time barrier is not that taxing...ftg on giant constructs is but that was for base minato this is bm minato...even kcm is a insurmountable difference from base in chakra....
> he does not need to teleport bm avatar hundreds of times...he can just teleport when charging a giant bijudama..he can tank all of ps assaults..kcm minato can certainly shunshin around considering hashirama was capable of outrunning kyuubisussanos assaults..not to mention simple ftg is not burningout kcm minato..ps sword strikes are one directional minato can teleport to the opposite side....not to mention during the battle he could send a kcm clone several miles away to put a mark to use that as a charge or respite point..this is incharacter for him when he shunshined 100miles out to the sea to place the marker to teleport the juubidama..he can even tage ps in a clashhile in bm essentially making ps a casual teleport point and teleport behind it when it swings it sword ftgs utility is incredibly hax



Senjutsu increases quality not size . That's like saying that BSM Narutos cloak is > to BM's . Madara can change the size of his Sussano at will, and he was using a lesser version of Sussano against the Bjuu then against the kage.

Sasuke manifested perfect Sussano that same day though. The entire Juubito and Juubidara battle probably happened within an hour lol. If Madara was fighting the 1st for 24 hours, chances are he brought it out ..The level of talent between Madara and Sasuke is tremendous btw. 

Do you have any proof that Minato was able to " train " his Bjuu Modes while dead ? Or did Kishi just Asspull or did Minato just have better chakra control then Pre-war arc naruto ?

It's also canon that Juubito arc Naruto > Minato in chakra control. So the limit Naruto was capped off at that time is above the limit Minato can reach in terms of time.

Base Minato can pull from Kuramas reserves in the same way base Naruto can pull from Kuramas reserves. EX: Naruto needed the kyuubis chakra to summon Bunta way back in part 1, he also did so without his eyes changing, and while in base form. If you want the scan I'll provide it .

Except being in KCM or BM mode means he has to teleport himself and his Bjuui cloak which is going to tax his chakra reserves. That's pretty obvious.

Base Minato was able to:
? Use FTG twice before confronting the Kyuubi.
? Warp a BjuiiDama 
? Use FTG 3 or 4 times + a Resengan against Obito.
? Summon Bunta + FTG the Kyyubi away
And then he had wasted his chakra reserves completely.

That's actually sort of impressive, but constantly warping away a Bjuui avatar away, as well as flash shunshin, bjuiidama, and Space time barrier to redirect PS swords is going to kill his chakra reserves regardless .

I didn't bother to read the rest as I never titled my opinion of BM vs Madara at all. Just the chakra difference and arsenal difference.

@ Corax
The sword swing wasnt even finished by the time he had already caught the damn thing. So I don't understand why you think there would have even been a shockwave .

He didn't get hit with the shockwave because he was behind Mokuton arms...?

@Sabre
You still haven't provided a scan of Moukton being destroyed by PS shockwaves. And that's all that really matters as that's the assertion you quoted me on.


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## Corax (Dec 14, 2014)

> @ Corax
> The sword swing wasnt even finished by the time he had already caught the damn thing. So I don't understand why you think there would have even been a shockwave .
> 
> He didn't get hit with the shockwave because he was behind Mokuton arms...?


He shoud ve been hit by it logically. Palm grab isn't  that tight to not let air pressure slip between them. Hashirama stood right below them.


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## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> catching a sword through touching the blunt sides is quite different then taking the cutting edge..
> [1]
> [1]
> 
> ...



KCM Minato is faster then Hashirama yes . But base ? No. 

1) the Viz manga states that Tobirama said your " teleportation is better then mine " which doesn't just directly encompass speed but also infers he was talking about his FTG as teleportation pertains to FTG more then Shunshin( although it cold apply). & the fact that if he wanted to complaint his speed he would have said faster not better . 

2) Alive Madara blitzed Sage Naruto from around 25ft out. That's something that Minato cannot do.

3) Minato used FTG level 2 to get the jump on the kage who were using casual moving speeds( nor shunshin considering they all conveniently arrived at the same time). 

4) Konoha is larger then a mountain ? Hashirama crossed an entire mountain range in a panel, and traveled equal to the speed of a Bjuii-Shiruken that traveled across a sea before water droplets could fall. Base exhausted Hashirama also escapes the AoE of Odama- FRS in an instant( which should expand to larger then Konoha).     

~ Kurama faster then sage Naruto ? Sage Naruto complimented his speed but I don't ever remember him being faster, and being faster then sage Narutos movement speed or being too fast for him to react are different things entirely.


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## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Senjutsu increases quality not size . That's like saying that BSM Narutos cloak is > to BM's . Madara can change the size of his Sussano at will, and he was using a lesser version of Sussano against the Bjuu then against the kage.
> 
> Sasuke manifested perfect Sussano that same day though. The entire Juubito and Juubidara battle probably happened within an hour lol. If Madara was fighting the 1st for 24 hours, chances are he brought it out ..The level of talent between Madara and Sasuke is tremendous btw.
> 
> ...



Madar did not use a lesser version against the bijuu it was the same...the level above is ps...

So you concede that you have no proof madara used ps for 24 hours? he might have unlocked it into the last hour for all we know?all we have is his normal sussano on panel..

No denying minatos talent but you donot steal the kyuubis chakra to gain kcm and then get his consent for bm in one panel....

Lets say base minato pulled some chakra from kyuubis pool passively that ...no proof of that but ok...it still means its his feat in edo and he will passively get the chakra from kyuubi in base that he can teleport attacks so far above anything madara can muster without breaking a sweat...kcm is tiers above this..being in kcm does not take a toll on his reserves there is no avatar..

No point comparing reserves of base minato to bm minato..kyuubi is a continous chakra battery that will give him chakra if he is even in base he will be able to use ftg..


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## Veracity (Dec 14, 2014)

Corax said:


> He shoud ve been hit by it logically. Palm grab isn't  that tight to not let air pressure slip between them. Hashirama stood right below them.



I don't think using minuscule logic in this Manga( like the one your brought up), is right lol.

For reference , Hashirama blocked an explosion entirely with contruct that was closed no tighter then his wood palms: [1]
In that same panel lol.


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## sabre320 (Dec 14, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> KCM Minato is faster then Hashirama yes . But base ? No.
> 
> 1) the Viz manga states that Tobirama said your " teleportation is better then mine " which doesn't just directly encompass speed but also infers he was talking about his FTG as teleportation pertains to FTG more then Shunshin( although it cold apply). & the fact that if he wanted to complaint his speed he would have said faster not better .
> 
> ...



Sweet jesus base minato is categorically faster then the hokae in shunshin what you talkin abt?
How the hell is he supposed to utilise ftg over the hokage when there were no markings near the battlefield to teleport to? so let me get this straight ur claiming minato kept throwing kunai and teleporting to them continuously to gain an edge on the hokage essentially using ftg thousands of times while he could use simple shunshin....lol ok seems reasonableck...and about the marking 100 miles out in the sea? 

Hashirama did not treavel across a sea what the heck u takin abt... minato on panel outpaced the hokage and tobirama who was the fastest shinobi in hashiramas time said my shunshin pales in front of urs fourth stop denying..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2014)

> seems reasonable...and about the marking 100 miles out in the sea?



Battle preparation that is not an impressive speed feat at all. 



> Hashirama did not treavel across a sea what the heck u takin abt... minato on panel outpaced the hokage and tobirama who was the fastest shinobi in hashiramas time said my shunshin pales in front of urs fourth stop denying..



Tobirama was clearly faster in combat speed and had better reaction speed than BM Minato.

And Hashirama, Edo Tensei'd without his full power, with clones around the battlefield that also weakened him, fought on par with Edo Madara. That already puts him above Minato in speed.

EMS Madara beats BM Minato and stomps base Minato without much of a problem.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

And i also wanna know where people get that fantasy that Minato can use Teleportation Barrier in a combination with Kurama Avatar to teleport Bijuu Damas right at PS. Where are you getting that from?


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

Ok people. Now i will explain why i think EMS Madara is superior to BM Minato. Although its 3 posts in a row. Forgive me, moderators. 

1. Madara's speed feats are superior to those of BM Minato. Blocked V2 Raikage's punch in a point blank. His clones reacted to Raikage no problem. He dodged Gaara's sand that reacted to V2 Raikage once. Easily reacted to BM Naruto clone. Alive, he blitzed SM Naruto. Naruto blocked that hit, but it can be consider a blitz, he didnt dodge it and was unable to do anything about that hit. He flee away. And Madara did that without his ayes. Plus, in general, Edo Madara had no problems of reacting to 5 Kage. 

But now lets talk about BM Minato. What feats does he have? Did way worse against Juubito than Tobirama did, who put a FTG formula and explosive tags on Juubito? FTGed Juubi Dama that was already slowed down by 8 Tails? He is not faster than alive EMS Madara, who can also predict any of his movements thanks to EMS.

2. Madara knows about Hiraishin. He knows how Hiraishin works. I dont think i need to explain why. That means he will avoide FTG kunai's and formulas in general, or he can push them out of the battlefield using his attacks. And Madara is very fast, plus EMS precognition. BM Minato wont be able to teleport around him.

3. BM Minato cant do anything to PS. Perfect Susanoo withstood a TBB from Full Kurama with not even a scratch. You may think that TBB wasnt very big and powerfull compare to some of half Kurama Avatars TBBs. But its not true. Take a look at half Kurama - Full Kurama size comparison.


Sage Mode and Tailed Beast Mode state

And now look at how big was that TBB that PS withstood no problem.

Sage Mode and Tailed Beast Mode state

It was the size of Full Kurama's *head*. And it was a TBB from *Full Kurama*. And Perfect Susanoo withstood it *easily*, with *no damage at all*. Furthermore, PS seemingly wasnt fully stabilised at that moment, which makes that feat even more impressive.

That means BM Minato's TBBs barrages wotn do anything to EMS Madara's PS.

3. Perfect Susanoo cant damage Kurama's Avatar, but it can outlast it. Madara can fight for the whole day non-stop. Kurama's avatar needs to restore chakra. When Kurama's avatar is out, BM Minato is dead. Multiple PS slashes = GG.

4. Now lets talk about Guiding Thunder and theoretical ability of Minato to use Kurama Avatar and Guiding Thunder at the same time to teleport TBB barrages at PS. Its just theory, and seemingly the one that is wrong completely. I never saw Minato being in Kurama avatar and using  Guiding Thunder at the same time. Its highly debatable if it is possible for Jinchuuriki to use space-time ninjutsu at all, especially while being in Avatar state. And even if he can do such a thing, Madara wont care about TBB barrages:

1) Madara, thanks to EMS precognition, will know where those barrages will appear. He can avoid FTG formulas easily.
2) He can blow TBBs up with his PS blades to not let them reach PS.
3) As i wrote above, PS can withstand those barrages no problem.

Add to that superior intelligence of Madara, his other abilities (genjutsu, Uchiha Return, the best Katons in Narutoverse etc.) and it will be obvious EMS Madara is superior to BM Minato. He can outlast his Kurama state and kill him afterwards. 

EMS Madara wins.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 19, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Why in gods name are u so desperate to hype hashis rival that you are giving him feats from rikudo sasukes ps who had sharrinegan??Do u really think they are equal...madaras ps was not capable of flight this is pathetically obvious



*Spoiler*: __ 



_Ninjutsu,all ranges,kekke-genkai,offensive,defensive. 
*Users: Uchiha Madara
*Eternity reigns within these pupils,allowing to shape the bravery into clad blue! 

The power of the "Mangekyo Sharingan" is able to activate incredible ninjutsu.Enormous chakra clad jutsu materialize, towering over the mountains( exceeding the height of the mountains), taking authority over battlefield to its hands(changing the flow of battle).Appearance of the complete jutsu differs in accordance to the user.Moreover for users that are good at ninjutsu "Susano'o"themselves,becomes possible to enter/trigger the invocation of the complete body(kanseitai)*.Furthermore Susano'o in next form can wear special armor which can shape/turn on wings that allow it to fly.*_



kishi lists madara as the only user of perfect susano, therefore the databook entry refers to madara and his susano specifically. madaras susano has wings, so it can fly regardless if it hasnt shown the ability.

all perfect susano can fly. sasukes isnt a special case.


> why didnt he in gods name use it against hashirama who had no ranged techniques to catch him in the sky..


what is madara going to do to hashirama if he is flying in the air? he has to be on the ground to fight him.

even sasukes susano stayed at ground level to fight narutos kurama avatar before naruto started flying himself.

if madara were to start randomly flying for no reason, shinsuusenju smacks him out of the air and destroys susano.



> okay now ur just being a baby about thisck....v3 sussano fighting off bm wow now iv seen it all...might want to add this to ur hall of fail..
> he squashes it like a bug this is madaras complete sussano enhanced by senjutsu
> Itachi & Nagato are in Deidara's position just outside of tree lining, enemy Edos are on the mountain's side
> Stop the wank mate..


this only happened when madara was distracted by 7 other biju. V3 susano already canonically matched kuramas fighting ability.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 19, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> madara grossly outclasses minato. portrayal puts characters on madaras level in a completely different realm of power than minato.
> 
> *a bijudama from six paths naruto merely took off a small portion off of the face of a perfect susano. the bijudama came from a six paths senjutsu enhanced kurama.
> *
> ...



And since when is a Perfect Susanoo enhanced by half of Hagoromo's Power equal to EMS Madara's PS?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 19, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> And since when is a Perfect Susanoo enhanced by half of Hagoromo's Power equal to EMS Madara's PS?



I was wondering the exact same thing


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> this only happened when madara was distracted by 7 other biju. V3 susano already canonically matched kuramas fighting ability.



No it didnt. PS did. And unstabilised PS easily withstood Bijuu Dama from Full Kurama. But thats all about PS, not V3 Susanoo.


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## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WOW.....ps sussano could litterally keep slashing from out of range from shinsensenju with no danger to itself....ur making a fool of yourself...he could have manifested the wings on kyuubisussano and used sword damas from the air...shinsensenju does not reach ps that flies out of range...he cant fly..madara can then use his attacks with leisure...can you please provide some scans of madaras v3 matching bm? cuz i provided you with a scan of senjutsu enhanced v4 getting squashed like a bug..


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 20, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> And since when is a Perfect Susanoo enhanced by half of Hagoromo's Power equal to EMS Madara's PS?


his susano is enhanced by the rinnegan which does nothing but turn the technique into a rinnegan susano(Mugen tsukiyomi resistence).
the only direct power(chakra) that sasuke got from hagoromo is the moon seal to use six paths chibaku tensei.


sabre320 said:


> WOW.....ps sussano could litterally keep slashing from out of range from shinsensenju with no danger to itself....ur making a fool of yourself...he could have manifested the wings on kyuubisussano and used sword damas from the air...shinsensenju does not reach ps that flies out of range...he cant fly..madara can then use his attacks with leisure...can you please provide some scans of madaras v3 matching bm? cuz i provided you with a scan of senjutsu enhanced v4 getting squashed like a bug..


the tactic you refer to is completely unfeasible. why did sasuke stay at ground level to fight kurama before he went airborne himself instead of just flying miles away from him and slashing? when you answer this question with a logical and in-universe explanation only then will you have a valid claim.
btw, the wings on Iso susano were being used to hold the swords of susano.

shinsuusenju is so tall and its arms are so long that it would simply swat perfect susano from the air. its that simple. your argument is nonsense. never in the manga has this "aerial advantage" ever been explored by any character capable of flight. 

V3 susano is a match for kurama. 

*Spoiler*: __


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> his susano is enhanced by the rinnegan which does nothing but turn the technique into a rinnegan susano(Mugen tsukiyomi resistence).
> the only direct power(chakra) that sasuke got from hagoromo is the moon seal to use six paths chibaku tensei.



His Susanoo was enchanced by half of Hagoromo's power. Because, without that, he wont have a chance against Naruto.

And those screens dont prove his Susanoo is a match for Kurama. Furthermore, there is only half of Kurama.


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## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> his susano is enhanced by the rinnegan which does nothing but turn the technique into a rinnegan susano(Mugen tsukiyomi resistence).
> the only direct power(chakra) that sasuke got from hagoromo is the moon seal to use six paths chibaku tensei.
> 
> the tactic you refer to is completely unfeasible. why did sasuke stay at ground level to fight kurama before he went airborne himself instead of just flying miles away from him and slashing? when you answer this question with a logical and in-universe explanation only then will you have a valid claim.
> ...



Right a sharrinegan is not going to upgrade sussano an eye technique seems legit.....

Sasuke didnt because he knew naruto could do the same....and later he did..

Stop it man shinsensenjus range is finite it has a limit...it cant reach the atmosphere..perfect sussano if capable of flight could easily go out of range and spam slashes...

Deidaras whole character was based on flight advantage..

Right thats a normal v3 sussano conveniently ignore the fact that it was powered by narutos kyuubi cloak and senjutsu....it does not remotely equal bm avatar....its strongest attack is a sword swing that dosent even have shockwaves...and an enton arrow... a simple bijudama surpasses its offense.....bm avatar was in canon capable of blocking the full might of ps sword swing with one tail..do the math its capable of giant bijudama that are mountain range busters...


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Right a sharrinegan is not going to upgrade sussano an eye technique seems legit.....


there is no such thing as the sharrinegan. there is the_ rinne sharingan_ which juubi jin madara and kaguya had that can cast IT, then there is the _rinnegan_ which hagoromo and sasuke have.

the rinnegan does upgrade susano. it turns it from a mangekyo sharingan susano into a rinnegan susano. there is no difference in power, but the susano is now capable of resisting IT.


> Sasuke didnt because he knew naruto could do the same....and later he did..


thats not an argument. before naruto went airborne, sasuke could have just kept his distance and spammed slashes like you said. naruto being able to go airborne is irrelevant because he wasnt flying at that time. sasuke didnt do this because your tactic is absolutely retarded.


> Stop it man shinsensenjus range is finite it has a limit...it cant reach the atmosphere..perfect sussano if capable of flight could easily go out of range and spam slashes...


a PS slash has finite range as well. the shockwave doesnt go on forever. sasuke had to be close to madaras meteors to cut them. his susano didnt snipe them from 20 miles away. 

the distance that susano has to be from shinsuusenju to hit it with a sword slash allows it to be hit by chojo kebetsu.


*the max distance that a shockwave from a PS slash has shown to go is within shinsuusenjus attack range. 
*



> Deidaras whole character was based on flight advantage..


deidaras whole fighting style was based on his explosive jutsu, not his flight. he is a long range fighter, but has been hit by close range fighters so im not seeing your point.


> Right thats a normal v3 sussano conveniently ignore the fact that it was powered by narutos kyuubi cloak and senjutsu....it does not remotely equal bm avatar....its strongest attack is a sword swing that dosent even have shockwaves...and an enton arrow... a simple bijudama surpasses its offense.....bm avatar was in canon capable of blocking the full might of ps sword swing with one tail..do the math its capable of giant bijudama that are mountain range busters...


sasuke can use the same susano with or without narutos cloak so the point is moot.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 20, 2014)

> his susano is enhanced by the rinnegan which does nothing but turn the technique into a rinnegan susano(Mugen tsukiyomi resistence).


Agreed.



> the only direct power(chakra) that sasuke got from hagoromo is the moon seal to use six paths chibaku tensei.


Wrong. Sasuke got the Moon Seal, and half of Hagoromo's chakra, while Naruto got the Sun Seal, and half of Hagoromo's chakra. The seal and the chakra are not the same thing. They both lost the seals, but still kept their enhanced abilities. Half of Hagoromo's power enhances his Susanoo just like it does for Naruto's Kurama Avatar.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 20, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> Wrong. Sasuke got the Moon Seal, and half of Hagoromo's chakra, while Naruto got the Sun Seal, and half of Hagoromo's chakra. The seal and the chakra are not the same thing. They both lost the seals, but still kept their enhanced abilities. Half of Hagoromo's power enhances his Susanoo just like it does for Naruto's Kurama Avatar.


hagoromo gave sasuke his chakra. you are correct.

madara replicated hagoromos chakra when he awakened the rinnegan. fusing indra and asuras chakra produces the same result as getting it from hagoromo himself. 

this chakra did nothing to madaras susano except turn it into a rinnegan susano. hagoromos chakra didnt make the techs of madara or sasuke more powerful. it gave them access to the final dojutsu of the sharingan line.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> hagoromo gave sasuke his chakra. you are correct.
> 
> madara replicated hagoromos chakra when he awakened the rinnegan. fusing indra and asuras chakra produces the same result as getting it from hagoromo himself.
> 
> this chakra did nothing to madaras susano except turn it into a rinnegan susano. hagoromos chakra didnt make the techs of madara or sasuke more powerful. it gave them access to the final dojutsu of the sharingan line.



Only a fraction of Hagoromo's chakra that awekened The Rinnegan.


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## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> there is no such thing as the sharrinegan. there is the_ rinne sharingan_ which juubi jin madara and kaguya had that can cast IT, then there is the _rinnegan_ which hagoromo and sasuke have.
> 
> the rinnegan does upgrade susano. it turns it from a mangekyo sharingan susano into a rinnegan susano. there is no difference in power, but the susano is now capable of resisting IT.
> 
> ...



No the range of a ps slash is more then shinsensenjus range....its slash traveled..multiple mountains in the distance....of the meteor..
here
here
here

madaras ps never displayed flying ability only ps of users with rikudos chakra have shown dat ability...not to mention he could have used the flying ability with kyuubisussano and nuked hashi to kingdom come..so let me get this straight gaining an airborne advantage and using it to spam ranged attacks is retarded...not to mention it provides a massive mobility advantage..good thing ur not a general..


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Only a fraction of Hagoromo's chakra that awekened The Rinnegan.


what are you even talking about? madara, just like sasuke possesses hagoromos chakra. the only thing this chakra did was give them the rinnegan.


sabre320 said:


> No the range of a ps slash is more then shinsensenjus range....its slash traveled..multiple mountains in the distance....of the meteor


the body of shinsuusenju dwarfs multiple mountains and the thousand arms on its back are over double the size of the main body. stop wasting my time with nonsense. 
the arms will obviously reach the range of multiple mountains as that is something that even the main body can do.


> ..madaras ps never displayed flying ability only ps of users with rikudos chakra have shown dat ability...not to mention he could have used the flying ability with kyuubisussano and nuked hashi to kingdom come..so let me get this straight gaining an airborne advantage and using it to spam ranged attacks is retarded...good thing ur not a general..


kishi stated in his databook that madara as a user of PS shapes the armor of his susano into wings for flight. you dont have an argument. all PS can fly. madara does possess hagoromos chakra as he is a rinnegan user.

hagoromos chakra isnt a requirement of PS anyway. as stated in the databook, all PS can fly.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 20, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> hagoromo gave sasuke his chakra. you are correct.
> 
> madara replicated hagoromos chakra when he awakened the rinnegan. *fusing indra and asuras chakra produces the same result as getting it from hagoromo himself. *
> 
> this chakra did nothing to madaras susano except turn it into a rinnegan susano. hagoromos chakra didnt make the techs of madara or sasuke more powerful. it gave them access to the final dojutsu of the sharingan line.



Actually, it doesn't give the same result. Naruto's half made his jutsu stronger. Sasuke's half made his Chidori stronger (Black Chidori, and the fact that his Chidori can obliterate a Hokage Mountain Sized Meteor in The Last). His Susanoo also got stronger. Perfect Susanoo cut Mountains in EMS form, when Sasuke comes back with Rikudo's Chakra, his Susanoo is cutting up CT Meteors the size of the Shinju's root. That's a massive difference.

There's also the fact that it made him faster. He was blitzing JJ Madara with his Amenotejikara S/T Jutsu, yet Minato had an instant jutsu and failed to blitz that same Madara. It gave them the Rinnegan and Sasuke got a boost, probably cause he got half of it instead of a portion like Madara, and probably because it was Yin.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 20, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Actually, it doesn't give the same result. Naruto's half made his jutsu stronger.


im pretty sure those huge boosts came from his six paths senjutsu mode. hagoromos chakra is what allowed him to awaken the form in the first place.


> Sasuke's half made his Chidori stronger (Black Chidori, and the fact that his Chidori can obliterate a Hokage Mountain Sized Meteor in The Last).


the black chidori was sasuke accessing power from the moon seal. him and naruto were about to use the six paths CT on madara, but he substituted himself with his limbo.


> His Susanoo also got stronger. Perfect Susanoo cut Mountains in EMS form, when Sasuke comes back with Rikudo's Chakra, his Susanoo is cutting up CT Meteors the size of the Shinju's root. That's a massive difference.





> There's also the fact that it made him faster. He was blitzing JJ Madara with his Amenotejikara S/T Jutsu, yet Minato had an instant jutsu and failed to blitz that same Madara. It gave them the Rinnegan and Sasuke got a boost, probably cause he got half of it instead of a portion like Madara, and probably because it was Yin.


wasnt a true blitz. madara fully perceived sasuke behind him and at that point he was running to get his other rinnegan. sasuke didnt blitz madara even when he and naruto were working together. 

half or a portion, if hagoromos chakra had any effect except activation of the rinnegan, some sort of boost at the very least wouldve been seen with madara.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 21, 2014)

> what are you even talking about? madara, just like sasuke possesses hagoromos chakra. the only thing this chakra did was give them the rinnegan.



Nope. Madara possessed only a part of Hagoromo's chakra that allowed him to aweken the Rinnegan and use some offensive techniques, like meteor. Sasuke was generally empowered by half of Hagoromo's power. He couldnt react to Juubito pre-empowerment and he easily bisects Juubidara in half later after Juubidara absorbed Juubi Tree? And his Perfect Susanoo is close to Bijuu Avatar that has chakra of all tailed beasts, just like Juubo? No way his PS stayed the same. It was empowered too, just like all of his abilities.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 21, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im pretty sure those huge boosts came from his six paths senjutsu mode. hagoromos chakra is what allowed him to awaken the form in the first place.



Naruto still has boosts outside of that mode. 



> the black chidori was sasuke accessing power from the moon seal. him and naruto were about to use the six paths CT on madara, but he substituted himself with his limbo.



That's from him having Rikudo's Chakra, not from the Moon Seal. Kakashi got Rikudo's power and his Raikiri became the same black color that Sasuke's did, and Kakashi didn't have the Moon Seal.

And once again, his Chidori is strong enough to blow up Meteors in The Last. That's because of rikudo's chakra.



> wasnt a true blitz. madara fully perceived sasuke behind him and at that point he was running to get his other rinnegan. sasuke didnt blitz madara even when he and naruto were working together.



I was talking about when he used Amenotejikara the final time, and yes, that was a blitz. Madara was tagged and then he reacted, he didn't react before getting tagged. He substituted after the fact.



> half or a portion, if hagoromos chakra had any effect except activation of the rinnegan, some sort of boost at the very least wouldve been seen with madara.



If the amount of chakra is too minuscule, there won't be a boost, if the type of chakra isn't the same, then there will be no boost. Kakashi and Sasuke both got boosts from a portion and half of Rikudo's power. Madara got Rikudo's Chakra from merging his son's power yet we saw no boost. Meaning they have to be different some how.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 22, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Nope. Madara possessed only a part of Hagoromo's chakra that allowed him to aweken the Rinnegan and use some offensive techniques, like meteor. Sasuke was generally empowered by half of Hagoromo's power. He couldnt react to Juubito pre-empowerment and he easily bisects Juubidara in half later after Juubidara absorbed Juubi Tree? And his Perfect Susanoo is close to Bijuu Avatar that has chakra of all tailed beasts, just like Juubo? No way his PS stayed the same. It was empowered too, just like all of his abilities.


sasuke could react to juubito before he got the rinnegan. 

Amenotejikara and the power of sasukes choku tomoe which he had prior is why he was able to keep up with madara.

hagoromos chakra powered sasukes eyes up to the stage of the rinnegan. PS as stated in the databook is a power of the mangekyo sharingan. the gaining of the rinnegan within itself isnt what made sasuke use PS. 
PS is a power comparable to the biju as stated in the manga. PS matching a kurama powered by the rest of the biju is of no surprise.


KeyofMiracles said:


> Naruto still has boosts outside of that mode.


against initial juubi jin madara, naruto was using sage mode+tailed beast chakra, so that isnt his base form.
i cant think of anything current base naruto has shown that would justify his base being hugely increased by hagoromos power.




> That's from him having Rikudo's Chakra, not from the Moon Seal. Kakashi got Rikudo's power and his Raikiri became the same black color that Sasuke's did, and Kakashi didn't have the Moon Seal.


oh, i forgot about kakashi. hagoromos chakra does contain senjutsu, which sasuke did use to hit madara. you are correct.
the black chidori is senjutsu which was also shown with cursed seal sasukes black chidori.



> And once again, his Chidori is strong enough to blow up Meteors in The Last. That's because of rikudo's chakra.


or that could just be sasuke getting more powerful over time through training. his chidori didnt have the feats to do anything like that during his fight against juubi jin madara, kaguya or naruto.

his chidori and black flame combination combined with narutos kyuubi empowered rasengan only filled up the width of VOTE. 





> I was talking about when he used Amenotejikara the final time, and yes, that was a blitz. Madara was tagged and then he reacted, he didn't react before getting tagged. He substituted after the fact.


this is just arguing semantics. thats not what i consider a blitz. i categorize sasuke teleporting madara the same as tobirama and minato using "_ FTG Mutually Instantaneous Revolving_" in order to hit obito.






> If the amount of chakra is too minuscule, there won't be a boost, if the type of chakra isn't the same, then there will be no boost. Kakashi and Sasuke both got boosts from a portion and half of Rikudo's power. Madara got Rikudo's Chakra from merging his son's power yet we saw no boost. Meaning they have to be different some how.


except the type of chakra is the same. both madara and sasuke have hagoromos chakra. 

there is no distinction between what kind of "hagoromo chakra" that sasuke and naruto received in the manga. that is just a distinction made by fans. 
they both received hagoromos chakra which can also be created by combining indra and asuras chakra and the sun/moon seals which have the power of yang and yin respectively.

both naruto and sasuke have yin-yang. narutos six paths senjutsu mode contains yin-yang power because of the properties of the truth seekers and purely due to the fact that hagormos chakra stems from the combinations of both asura and indras chakras. sasuke has yin-yang because of the rinnegan and the fact that hagormos power stems from the combination of indra and asuras chakras.
naruto has the "body" powers of the sage which represents asura and that specific power of the sage, his six paths senjutsu form.

sasuke has the "eye" powers of the sage which represents indra and that specific power of the sage which is the rinnegan.

madara combined the "body" and the "spiritual" energies of the sage when he combined asuras chakra with indras. thats why the rinnegan awakened.

the only individual yin and yang elements that sasuke and naruto had were the moon and sun seal respectively.


indra= yin
asura= yang
hagoromo= yin-yang

hagormo giving his chakra to naruto and sasuke results in:

naruto= yin-yang with yang bias
sasuke= yin-yang with yin bias

i say there is a bias due to sasukes strongest power coming from indra despite him having hagoromos rinnegan and narutos strongest power being the same as asuras(who received hagoromos power as well).

madara was exactly the same as sasuke with perfect susano being his stated full power despite his rinnegan.


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## sabre320 (Dec 23, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> sasuke could react to juubito before he got the rinnegan.
> 
> Amenotejikara and the power of sasukes choku tomoe which he had prior is why he was able to keep up with madara.
> 
> ...



sasuke lost the moon seal after kaguya fight..have u seen the feats of sasukes ps...he cut the meteor whose rubble that was dwarfing the mountain range..and madars ps was barely able to cut 3 mountains..


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## StarWanderer (Dec 23, 2014)

> sasuke could react to juubito before he got the rinnegan.
> 
> Amenotejikara and the power of sasukes choku tomoe which he had prior is why he was able to keep up with madara.
> 
> ...



No he couldnt. He could react to Gudoudama, to which many people could react. And Obito blocked that Susanoo attack because he wanted to put Sasuke* "to sleep"*.

His overall speed was many times greater after he was empowered by Rikudou.

Comparable to a Bijuu, not the Juubi (combination of all Bijuu), or someone with comparable power.

Also, Sasuke's PS Pre-Rikudou has no feats.

And Rikudou's chakra greatly empowered all his abilities. He also was able to protect Naruto, Kakashi and Sakura from Infinite Tsukuyomi with his PS.


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