# Luke Skywalker Runs The To Aru Verse Character Gauntlet



## Gundam Meister (Jul 23, 2010)

Tier 1
Aiwass

Tier 2
Michael
Raphael
Gabriel
Uriel
Kazakiri Hyouka (Fuze)

Tier 3
Fiama of the Right
Index Librorum Prohibitorum

Tier 4
Accelerator
Aqua of the Back
Vent of the Front
Terra of the Left
Aureolus Izzard
The Grand Master
Aurrelus

Tier 5
Kanzaki Kaori
Silvia
Kamijōu Touma
Teitoku Kakine (Dark matter)
Carrisa (with Curtana)
Queen Elizard's (with Curtana)

Tier 6
Misaka Mikoto (Railgun)
Shizuri Mugino (Meltdown)
Quetzal
Styil Magnus
Tsuchimikado Motoharu
Awaki Musujime (Move Pointer)
Kiyama Harumi (Multiskill)
The Queen Of Tokiwadai
Misaka Worst (with battle gear)
Oriana Thompson
Sherry Cromwell
Takitsubo Rikou
Tatemiya Saiji
Itsuwa

Tier 7
Shirai Kuroko
Angelene
Anieze Sanctis
Frenda
Kihara Amata
Kinuhata Saiai
Kongou_Mitsuko
Lessar
Luccia
Misaka Sisters
Last Order


He Starts from the bottom of the list so can he get all the way to Aiwass

He gets heal after each battle

EDIT : 

Battlefield : To Aru Verse England 

PSI AND CSI Off

State Of Mind Of The To Aru Characters Blood Lusted


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

He ain't touching Accelerator.


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

Anyone who thinks Luke makes it past tier 4 is smoking something fierce.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Luke>>>Palpatine>>>>Vader>>>>Death Star>God


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Luke mindfucks everyone.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 23, 2010)

I think he can beat all of them, but then again I might be wrong.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lge29_J0-E&feature=PlayList&p=7ED24BEBA99A4B7B&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=47[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vakbcckQO-I&feature=PlayList&p=7ED24BEBA99A4B7B&playnext_from=PL&playnext=2&index=48[/YOUTUBE]


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

Luke would have beaten everyone had it not been for the fact that someone in tier 4 could simply tell Luke to die and Luke would die.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Luke tells Death to die

I don't think that will work, you Commie


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## zenieth (Jul 23, 2010)

That would be true if luke didn't have the superior reaction time to just turn that person's mind to applesauce.


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Whose going to make Luke die?


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## Big Bοss (Jul 23, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> Luke would have beaten everyone had it not been for the fact that someone in tier 4 *could simply tell Luke to die and Luke would die.*



Right I doubt that.


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

zenieth said:


> That would be true if luke didn't have the superior reaction time to just turn that person's mind to applesauce.



Hmm, Touche. 



Grαhf said:


> Right I doubt that.



You do not know of Izzard's ability?


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## Big Bοss (Jul 23, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> You do not know of Izzard's ability?



No, but you will have to prove that is going to work against *Luke Skywalker *


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## Darth Nihilus (Jul 23, 2010)




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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

Grαhf said:


> No, but you will have to prove that is going to work against *Luke Skywalker *



Link removed

Would it work on Luke? I dont know, you tell me. I have no reason to believe it wouldn't.

Then again Zenieth brought up the point that Luke could simply fuck his mind before he utters the word die.


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## Shock Therapy (Jul 23, 2010)

It's Luke *motherfucking* Skywalker


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Luke has anchored his spirit strong enough that being in Abeloth's realm of the Force which dilates a Force-User's perception of time was equivalent from a few days being several months while atrophy and entropy ate away at his body and mind in the real world was still strong enough to resist her in Abyss.


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

So are we done?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jul 23, 2010)

You do realize that you're just beating an already dead horse


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## Big Bοss (Jul 23, 2010)

I was wondering the same thing.

So Luke beats them all?


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> So are we done?



Pretty much. I'm taking Zenieth's word that Luke could mind crush him before Izzard even utters a word.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> Link removed
> 
> Would it work on Luke? I dont know, you tell me. I have no reason to believe it wouldn't.
> 
> Then again Zenieth brought up the point that Luke could simply fuck his mind before he utters the word die.



It would work if he had the speed. Luke however can TK at the speed of thought. Even though Ars Magna is broken (it is), Izzard isn't fast enough.

However again, Luke isn't getting past Accelerator.

His Vectors are too much to deal with and adapt to attacks or amplify Accel's own attacks and speed. Not to mention he can reflect attacks.


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Darth Nihilus said:


> You do realize that you're just beating an already dead horse



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t-1SEj6UMk[/YOUTUBE]


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## Darth Nihilus (Jul 23, 2010)




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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

basch71 said:


> It would work if he had the speed. Luke however can TK at the speed of thought. Even though Ars Magna is broken (it is), Izzard isn't fast enough.
> 
> However again, Luke isn't getting past Accelerator.
> 
> His Vectors are too much to deal with and adapt to attacks or amplify Accel's own attacks and speed. Not to mention he can reflect attacks.



He mindfucks him.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

Luke stops at tier 4, but he beats most of the people in this tier. God's right seat will get blitzed, Vent gets pwnt as i doubt divine punishment will work against someone of luke's level. Aurrelus shoul dbe able to beat luke but no feats so cant say much

Luke isnt getting past accelerator though, Lightspeed concrete walls kill him.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Luke blocks real lasers


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Not happening.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> He mindfucks him.



He can't. His Vectors passively defend him from any attack. And mindfucks is done through TK and it blocks that. The only person who has ever beaten him was Touma and that was because he has Imagine Breaker which nullifies anything supernatural with a touch.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jul 23, 2010)

Force Pushing Palpatine through a window at FTL speeds?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

basch71 said:


> And mindfucks is done through TK



hahahahahaha

wrong


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

basch71 said:


> He can't. His Vectors passively defend him from any attack. And mindfucks is done through TK and it blocks that. The only person who has ever beaten him was Touma and that was because he has Imagine Breaker which nullifies anything supernatural with a touch.



Too bad Luke dominates him with telepathy, TK's him into space, or Emerald Lightning his ass. Accelerator isn't doing shit to Luke's telepathy unless you have proof he's going to resist a guy who casually mindfucks people across the galaxy and through multiple dimensions?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> hahahahahaha
> 
> wrong



The Force, you know what I mean.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Luke blocks real lasers



the concrete wall has been calced at around exaton levels of force ( something times 10^26 joules of force iirc) which i think TWF himself said is closing in on deathstar levels. In anycase its far more than enough for lifewiping, and surpasses Star Destroyer Turbolasers in power by magnitudes. Unless ur saying that luke can block a deathstar laser i dont think he can tank the wall of doom

i actually think luke will do better against tier 3 (fianma and index) than accel in tier 4 due to compatability. Luke may actually get to tier 2 but he isnt clearing them, they are all casual reality warpers (with the exception of FUZE, who should still be far above luke)


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## God (Jul 23, 2010)

He gets to Tier 4.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jul 23, 2010)

Telepathy=/=Telekinesis


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> Too bad Luke dominates him with telepathy, TK's him *into space*, or *Emerald Lightning* his ass. Accelerator isn't doing shit to Luke's telepathy unless you have proof he's going to resist a guy who casually mindfucks people across the galaxy and through multiple dimensions?



dont think bolded will work, darkwing can live in a vacuum.

and lul wut multiple dimensions???? o.O


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> *snipe*



You have zero idea of what your talking about, especially with the capacity of what teraton/petaton/exaton firepower does.

Luke casually breaks starships that can take hundreds of teratons on their shields and armor. Fact.

A weaker version of Luke has used TK on artificial singularities that are meant for cap ship engagements in SW.

Luke's Precog >>>>>>>>>> Accelerator.


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

Let's all reveal this thread for what it really is.

Japan vs USA. 

Nah just kidding. Anyway, I'm not sure how it'll go. I'm not fully caught up on RailDex anyway. Izzard was the only guy I saw doing it, but Luke outspeeds him and mind fucks. You all carry on.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

Cubey said:


> He gets to Tier 4.



He either stops at Accelerator in Tier 4 or sweeps Tier 3 and stops at tier 2

i just dont see fianma or index putting up a fight against luke.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

We should get Greed or Xellos on this. They know about Accelerator more than I do. Since the bulk of his feats are in the novels.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> and lul wut multiple dimensions???? o.O



Luke can mindfuck people that are in hyperspace, a separate dimension, ages ago


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> You have zero idea of what your talking about,
> 
> Luke casually breaks starships that can take hundreds of teratons on their shields and armor.



the concrete wall's power is in the exatons.

besides luke may casually break through armour that can take hundreds of teratons, but i doubt luke could tank attacks of hundreds of teratons


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> the concrete wall's power is in the exatons.



Not really.



> besides luke may casually break through armour that can take hundreds of teratons, but i doubt luke could tank attacks of hundreds of teratons



Irreverent as Accelerator gets reduced to a nothing since he won't have mind in the first place to perform any of said attacks


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Luke can mindfuck people that are in hyperspace, a separate dimension, ages ago



where were the good old days where hyperspace was just going really really fast and making stars turn into streaks? D=


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

You don't even know what hyperspace is? lol. Anyways Luke has used TK and illusions to cloak starfighters moving at significant velocities of C.

So lol.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Luke can also telepathically communicate with sentient crystals and, if bloodlusted, mind-rape them 

if it has a mind, he can attack it


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> Not really.
> 
> 
> 
> Irreverent as Accelerator gets reduced to a nothing since he won't have mind in the first place to perform any of said attacks



it was calced as such, as accelerator slowed down the rotation of the earth by 5 minutes to power his attack, which came to about somethingx10^26 joules of energy behind the concrete wall.

my physics aint the best but thats exatons isnt it?


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

This thread should have never been made. It's bound to turn into a flamefest sooner or later.


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## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

His mind is protected, we already do with this on another thread actually it was accelerator vs luke if I recall.

Second even in the remote case he pass Accelerator, Demon God Index would pretty much kill him, her mind have 103,000 grimmores, each of those say books capable on mind rape on its down, her shield which destroy time and space around herself and she know args magna which is what Aureolus does to reality warp.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> This thread should have never been made. It's bound to turn into a flamefest sooner or later.



why not? luke does have the chance to take it to the very top tiers, its not like this is a rapestomp either way.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> His mind is protected



how protected is it  

will it stop Luke from tearing through it like a rapist through cotton shift


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> how protected is it
> 
> will it stop Luke from tearing through it like a rapist through cotton shift



What an analogy.


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> *snip*



No one cares what /a/ calced especially since I remember the number sounding inflated as fuck.



Xelloss said:


> His mind is protected, we already do with this on another thread actually it was accelerator vs luke if I recall.
> 
> Second even in the remote case he pass Accelerator, Demon God Index would pretty much kill him, her mind have 103,000 grimmores, each of those say books capable on mind rape on its down, her shield which destroy time and space around herself and she know args magna which is what Aureolus does to reality warp.



Remote case? Not on your life, Luke curbstomps him, He's bloodlusted these years, he doesn't fuck around.

And yeah, so can the Force, what is your point? We have something called Force Storms.

 Luke has already shown the capacity to use his mind without stress to spread it to tens of thousands of Blackhole's Stormies scattered around an entire star system and that was noobie Luke only a few months after RoTJ, and mind and soul-fucked a psychic in another dimension who was traveling at FTL speeds out of the star system.


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## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

Theres a flood of mind rapers on ToAru the best mind raped cant doit, and accelerator does have her powers, she can mind rape, reduce will to 0, amplify will, destroy emotions, etc.

But as Accelerator control vectors on a quantum lvl, also the mind rape on Starwars is done by Telekinesis which has vectors, and last Darkwing control things even without vectors or things that doesnt exist.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> also the mind rape on Starwars is done by Telekinesis



Jesus Christ no it's not 

this is like Wesley level


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Theres a flood of mind rapers on ToAru the best mind raped cant doit, and accelerator does have her powers, she can mind rape, reduce will to 0, amplify will, destroy emotions, etc.



And not a single one compares to high tier Force Users who have casually mind-raped entire planetary systems of psychics, so what's your point?



> But as Accelerator control vectors on a quantum lvl, a*lso the mind rape on Starwars is done by Telekinesis which has vectors*, and last Darkwing control things even without vectors or things that doesnt exist.



No it doesn't.


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## Abigail (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> also the mind rape on Starwars is done by Telekinesis



Even, if for some retarded reason this was true, then congratulations. You just gave Luke galactic range for his TK ever since RotJ.

Galactic range TK which is FTL.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jul 23, 2010)

Once again

Telekinesis=/=Telepathy


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## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

According to what I remember on the other thread is does, and stll you are using a heavy no limit fallancy here with Luke like anything with a mind can be mind raped, I have yet to see a force user mess with a person feelings at all.

Also the only person who have break Accelerator defense is pratically speaking someone on the galaxy destroyer range.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Telepathy and Empathy:


> Originally posted by *Pages 300 and 301*
> _Linked through Kar to Cronal, through Cronal to the Shadow Crown, and through the Crown's ancient powers of Sith alchemy to every Melter mind in every scrap of meltmassif in the galaxy, Luke had shone upon them with the light of the Force.  This light had drawn them as moonlight draws a shadowmoth, and they found that its inexhaustible flood could fill them to overflowing.  Never again would they feed upon light; there would never be the need.  They would forever shine with light of their own.
> 
> And so they came out from every place the Dark had put them.
> ...



he had to use Cronal's Crown as a channel at first but after the meltmassif, the stuff that makes it useful, leaked out, Luke is still able to project his mind across a star system and linked himself with the minds of 50,000 Stormtroopers

and this is him 6 months after RotJ


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## zenieth (Jul 23, 2010)

I thought accelerator's no limits fallacy self was wrangled already.


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## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

I do agree that unless proven accelerator vector field should be overcome with a planetbuster or greater power.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> I have yet to see a force user mess with a person feelings at all.



ahahahahahaha

Battle Meditation, Joruus C'Baoth 

he altered the morale of tens of thousands of troops by himself 

look it up


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## Gundam Meister (Jul 23, 2010)

What about the Angels and Aiwass could Luke get past them


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> According to what I remember on the other thread is does, and stll you are using a heavy no limit fallancy here with Luke like anything with a mind can be mind raped, I have yet to see a force user mess with a person feelings at all.



So casually "forcing" half a dozen Jedi Knights on the opposite of the galaxy's end from Luke to come to the Jedi Temple isn't mind-control? Mentally using empathy and telepathy to calm tens of thousands of dying men's minds and spirits across a star system? 

Seriously?

Lol. Also when did I suggest wonky stuff like Luke would TP the Flash or Runner, oh wait...someone else did with the Accelerator.



> Also the only person who have break Accelerator defense is pratically speaking someone on the galaxy destroyer range.



Okay, are you going to play it this way? The only thing that has shown to overpower Luke's psychic perceptions is a veritable cosmic being that makes Luke look like ant.


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

Gundam Meister said:


> What about the Angels and Aiwass could Luke get past them



Now this is where I see Luke Stopping. He's not beating Aiwass if what I heard about it is true.


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## Big Bοss (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> Okay, are you going to play it this way? The only thing that has shown to overpower Luke's psychic perceptions *is a veritable cosmic being that makes Luke look like ant*.



Who is this character?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jul 23, 2010)

Luke Skywalker


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)




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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> No one cares what /a/ calced especially since I remember the number sounding inflated as fuck.
> .



actually the discussion over how much energy accelerator stole from the earth has already happened and its been agreed the value isnt inflated by much

googling rotational energy of the earth gives u values from the low 10^29s to higher figures

heres a good link (the thread was initially about other calculations but read down a bit and u can see the calculations for earth's rotational energy is 1.066x10^29 joules) 

and since accel slowed down the earth's rotation by 5 minutes equivalent to about 0.35% of the earth's energy was borrowed
giving (using my computer's calculator) 3731x10^23 joules.... which i have no idea how much that is, it sounds a lot anyways ^^;;


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Yeah, I don't give a darn either way nor do I trust it.


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## Abigail (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:
			
		

> blub blub


Massively FTL TK you gave Luke.

In RotJ, when Luke sent a telepathic message to Leia, even if they were only 1 lightyears apart and it took an entire day to reach her it would still make his telepathy 365 times c.

And, since according to you telepathy =  TK, then...

So, either he gets mind raped or gets a massively FTL force push to the face.


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## SasuOna (Jul 23, 2010)

luke skywalker kills them all


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

luke aint gonna get past the angels thats for sure. he MIGHT beat fuze, since shes slightly different from the other angels and doesnt have as impressive feats (compared to gabriel)


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

So Luke gets to tier 1 at most?


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> Yeah, I don't give a darn either way nor do I trust it.



you dont trust scientifically proven values??? oO


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## Gig (Jul 23, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> ahahahahahaha
> 
> Battle Meditation, Joruus C'Baoth
> 
> ...



Bastila shan a very talented padawan could fuck with the feelings of entire armies of thousands.

Luke is so beyond her in ability, talent and experience to a ridicules degree


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> So Luke gets to tier 1 at most?



he shouldnt be able to beat the 4 christian archangels, maybe beats fuze. He should be murdered by aiwass.


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## God (Jul 23, 2010)

Oh man... **


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

As soon as I see someone capable of replicating even noob Luke's TP feat of range and capacity for mental resistance, immunity or resistance to Emerald Lightning, as well as Shatterpoints, Fold-Space, TK, ect...maybe they'll survive.

Hey, getting mindfucked from a guy who can telepathically fuck you up from multiple dimensions across a galaxy casually is hard shit.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Gig said:


> Bastila shan a very talented padawan could fuck with the feelings of entire armies of thousands.
> 
> Luke is so beyond her in ability, talent and experience to a ridiculous degree



Luke is a Force Messiah, no other way to put it



Cubey said:


> Oh man... **



you're one to talk


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> As soon as I see someone capable of replicating even noob Luke's TP feat of range and capacity for mental resistance, immunity or resistance to Emerald Lightning, as well as Shatterpoints, Fold-Space, TK, ect...maybe they'll survive.
> 
> Hey, getting mindfucked from a guy who can telepathically fuck you up from multiple dimensions across a galaxy casually is hard shit.




casual solar system reality warping?


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> As soon as I see someone capable of replicating even noob Luke's TP feat of range and capacity for mental resistance, immunity or resistance to Emerald Lightning, as well as Shatterpoints, Fold-Space, TK, ect...maybe they'll survive.
> 
> Hey, getting mindfucked from a guy who can telepathically fuck you up from multiple dimensions across a galaxy casually is hard shit.



Well the... thing in tier 1 is supposed to have type 5 immortality so I'm not sure how Luke goes about dealing with that.


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> you dont trust scientifically proven values??? oO



I don't trust numbers from a guy reposting them thinking Accelerator could vector Marvel and DC Herald class beings.

Or info from fucking /a/ to top-it-all.


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## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

Good, I still dont see how he is gonna kill him (more because on darkwing his wings act independant to him but havent show any mind on their own, more like a self defense) anyways Luke has better showings.

So you dont trusth a calculation done already 3 times on this board with a link to the novels for what reason?


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> casual solar system reality warping?



Which means nothing if Luke is fucking their mind up from across the galaxy. Xellos, all Luke has to do is BFR Darkwing Duck or whatever Accelerator to wherever he wants for an automatic DQ or reduce his mind to that of a sub-sibilant infant.

He's out of the match either way.


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## Gig (Jul 23, 2010)

Abigail said:


> Massively FTL TK you gave Luke.
> 
> In RotJ, when Luke sent a telepathic message to Leia, even if they were only 1 lightyears apart and it took an entire day to reach her it would still make his telepathy 365 times c.
> 
> ...



This being a feat done by a Noob Luke who had roughly a weeks worth of training by Yoda and about hours worth of training from Obi wan. 

Current Luke has 40+ years worth of experience


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## zenieth (Jul 23, 2010)

If he turns his mind to mush I'm pretty sure the battle's over.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Good, I still dont see how he is gonna kill him (more because on darkwing his wings act independant to him but havent show any mind on their own, more like a self defense) anyways Luke has better showings.



I don't know, can they detect someone who could just easily cloak himself, mind and body? 

remember, Luke's illusions can fuck with advanced sensors and he has shown the ability to create a fleet of illusory ships


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> I don't trust numbers from a guy reposting them thinking Accelerator could vector Marvel and DC Herald class beings.
> 
> Or info from fucking /a/ to top-it-all.



i got the values for earth's rotational energy from multiple sources on google (search the value and do the maths urself if u really have to)

there are 60x24=1440 minutes in a day, accel takes 5 minutes worth of rotational energy from the earth

if u are so distrustful, go and find a value for the rotational energy from the earth (link would be good so we can confirm) and then multiply that by 5/1440 to get hte energy accelerator channeled into his attack

its simple enough, if u can produce a value that is significantly different to the value i posted then i will accept that maybe the number is inflated.


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## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I don't know, can they detect someone who could just easily cloak himself, mind and body?
> 
> remember, Luke's illusions can fuck with advanced sensors and he has shown the ability to create a fleet of illusory ships



Luke can cloak planets. 



pikachuwei said:


> *stuff that has nothing to do with the thread*



Cool story bro.


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## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I don't know, can they detect someone who could just easily cloak himself, mind and body?
> 
> remember, Luke's illusions can fuck with advanced sensors and he has shown the ability to create a fleet of illusory ships



Does those sensors extend to another dimension? If yes I concede, as they have tag somone there but if they do then theres no way for accelerator to stand a chance.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> Which means nothing if Luke is fucking their mind up from across the galaxy. Xellos, all Luke has to do is BFR Darkwing Duck or whatever Accelerator to wherever he wants for an automatic DQ or reduce his mind to that of a sub-sibilant infant.
> 
> He's out of the match either way.



standard OBD setting means hyperbolic time chamber, (unsure about this) can luke still BFR them to another galaxy?

anyway we are done wiht accel, he loses

gabriel in an instant swapped the minds of every single human on the planet and for lulz moved the sun to another position in the solar system to create a solar eclipse.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Does those sensors extend to another dimension? If yes I concede, as they have tag somone there but if they do then theres no way for accelerator to stand a chance.



I'm pretty sure the starship sensors that Luke can fool have detected ships traveling through hyperspace


----------



## zenieth (Jul 23, 2010)

Did you miss the whole hyperspace post?


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

SW sensors can detect stuff distorting time-space, FTL, multiple bandwidths radio, light, ect...across a star system, and hyperspace/darkspace, so yeah. 

Luke has mindfucked fleets with illusions anyways and did it to his nephew, Darth Caedus, who specializes in illusions during Legacy.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> Luke can cloak planets.
> 
> 
> 
> Cool story bro.



if you want to prove our claims of accel's feat are false at least do a contradicting calc to disprove it. brushing it off as pure BS isnt gonna convince us we are wrong.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

No I didnt miss it, but thats a feat of Luke tagging someone on another dimension, now I was asking of Luke hidden his presense to something that can sense on another dimension.


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> if you want to prove our claims of accel's feat are false at least do a contradicting calc to disprove it. brushing it off as pure BS isnt gonna convince us we are wrong.



Prove their legitmate, your burden, not mine.



Xelloss said:


> No I didnt miss it, but thats a feat of Luke tagging someone on another dimension, now I was asking of Luke hidden his presense to something that can sense on another dimension.



Yes, he can.


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

I think now the question should be whether Luke can make it past the Arch angels and Aiwass... though I honestly don't see him getting past Aiwass unless Luke has beaten a perfect immortal before.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

The calculation pikachu say is correct on the amough of energy he challenge I still dont see how thats gonna win to someone with precog and other feats I recall of Luke to be honest.

The part on the novel


*Spoiler*: __ 



In that instant, the earth's rotation on September 30 slows down by about 5 minutes.

His arm, having took away the enormous energy of the planet's rotation, converts it via vector control into a single demonic attack.

The forcibly gouged-out concrete wall was blown away at a horrifying velocity. Accelerator is standing on an alley corner that surrounds a building, but the several buildings that serve as an obstructing space between him and the [target] were being destroyed as if they're waste paper.

Such thoughts (allowance) like concern for the surroundings and the involvement of civilians were all gone in an instant.

By the time he noticed, it was already unleashed.

The distance towards the [target] was almost over two kilometers.

The windowless building.

The world's most hardened shelter said to be the castle of Aleister, the general board chairman of Gakuen Toshi.

Towards a gargantuan structure said to be unyielding even against a shockwave of a nuclear weapon.

The attack directly hit it at a horrifying velocity. 




Link removed


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> Prove their legitmate, your burden, not mine.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, he can.



i have already proven its legitimacy, i redid the calculation using rotational value from another site, i even posted the link where i got the value from (1.066x10^29 instead of the higher 2.14x10^29 used in the original calc)

multiplied it by 5 minutes divided by 1440 minutes (minutes in a day) to give the amount of energy accelerator stole to propel his concrete wall which came down to in the 10^23 range, not as high as the 10^26 range of the original calculation but since my starting value was less than half that of the original calc's a lower number was expected

now its ur turn to disprove it.


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> *snip*



Make a thread, post the passage of the feat verbatim exactly as it occured, and calc it.

Otherwise, stop repeating yourself here.


----------



## God (Jul 23, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> you're one to talk



Talk about what?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 23, 2010)

go away Cubey


----------



## Gig (Jul 23, 2010)

Death Star is the Ultimate power in the universe 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p4T7_XI7WM[/YOUTUBE]

Deathstar proves it by defeating God, God is Omnipotent since he created the Universe
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXEa-4WG1hc[/YOUTUBE]

Noob Luke (The absolute weakest shown version) casually defeats the Death Star in 1 attack, god did no damage to the Deathstar going all out 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bSefSLaPFs[/YOUTUBE]

Current Luke >>>>>>>>>> (Infinite) >>>>>>>>>>>>>Noob Luke >>>>>> Deathstar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God/Omnipotence


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

Gig said:


> Death Star is the Ultimate power in the universe
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p4T7_XI7WM[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Deathstar proves it by defeating God, God is Omnipotent since he created the Universe
> ...



Even as a joke I take offence to the fact you even dare to say a Star wars character can kill omnipotents. Do not tempt someone to make a "The one above all vs Luke Skywalker" thread.


----------



## God (Jul 23, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> go away Cubey



Go away CD.


----------



## Gig (Jul 23, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> Even as a joke I take offence to the fact you even dare to say a Star wars character can kill omnipotents. Do not tempt someone to make a *"The one above all vs Luke Skywalker"* thread.



Already been done, Luke Skywalker stomped
Link removed


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

Gig said:


> Already been done, Luke Skywalker stomped



And chickens are capable of singing the Russian national anthem.


----------



## zenieth (Jul 23, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> And chickens are capable of singing the Russian national anthem.



Why so terrible?


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> Make a thread, post the passage of the feat verbatim exactly as it occured, and calc it.
> 
> Otherwise, stop repeating yourself here.



Link removed

done as requested, now show me if i have done somethign wrong, and in that case recalc it (im only 16 so my maths and physics isnt too hawt, my recalc is just copiyng the first calc but using a lower value for the rotational kinetic energy of the earth in one day)


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

this guy is making the mistake that I care at all


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

So in the end Luke dies at Aiwass. Can the thread be closed now?


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

Person on tier 1 with Type 5 immortality. Anyway, thread's over. Let's just wait for mods to lock it.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

The top top tier so far of ToAru and dimensional immortal entity that is probably around galaxy buster (we have no feat but Archangels which can reality warp on solar system scale without effort are weaker than it).


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

how do you go from " star system " scale reality warping to magically galaxy busting/leveling?


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

Because his statements, totally unproved so far (thats why I say its a guess), mind you solar system manipulation without trying is impressive no less for something weaker than it.


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Because his statements, totally unproved so far (thats why I say its a guess), mind you solar system manipulation without trying is impressive no less for something weaker than it.



Don't forget the fact that it's completely incapable of dying.


----------



## zenieth (Jul 23, 2010)

The difference between galaxy level and solar system level is staggering.


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Can I see excerpts of solar system warping/busting then?


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

ToAru majutsu no index chapter 14 anime (not novel translation so far), Gabriel m ove the sun around to cause a eclipse for the lols. Let me see if I find the chapter.

Link removed

Is in spanish


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Which is the canon material for ToARU?


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

Novel, but the anime adaptation is good enough (mind you they fail to really make Gabriel look like a solar system wiper).


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

So the anime isn't canon then?


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

Nope, just a adaptation, theres a quote of the angel power in the novels.

"It can't be..."

Kamijou Touma, dumbfounded, gazes at that from over the bridge.

He knows.

He knows the real nature of the extremely unscientific being, seen far off ahead.

It really has that same horrible presence as that time a being named Misha Kreuzhev manifested itself.

A being who manipulates magic styles to bring humanity to ruin without moving even one finger, and bring Saints to near-death during its spare time.

It is named,


"—an angel!?"


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

And adaption isn't canon, DB's anime isn't canon to the manga. Unless you have specific statements that define To-ARU's canon and continuity in various medias, that's kind of a big problem for you.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

Except that adaptation is actually a watered down version, less dark and less powerful in this case. While I understand your point what Gabriel did on the novel and did on the anime is the same, except he actually had a spell ready to turn to dust the earth on the novel, and his wings where destrying mountains.


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

So he/it/whatever does it in the novel? Or did the anime make it look impressive since he didn't need some sort of prep?


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

No need of preparation, it had 3 spells ready

God's Purge can turn half of the earth into ashes
Astral In Hand can simply destroy Earth by stopping Earth's self rotating motion on spot
Judgment which summons a explossion that would vaparize the Earth

The anime actually make it seems weaker.


----------



## SasuOna (Jul 23, 2010)

Yeah I don't think Luke is getting past tier 1 after reading some of these feats
/thread


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

One of the things really keeping Luke from killing the likes of Aiwass is the fact that it has perfect immortality and Mid-Godly regen. All the power in the world won't help if you can't kill the opponent.


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Immortality is good and dandy but that still has nothing to do with astral manipulation, illusions that can fuck up your senses and perceptions permanently or having your mind reduced to that lower of a comatose patient equivalent to a living vegetable by Luke's class of telepathy.


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> Immortality is good and dandy but that still has nothing to do with astral manipulation, illusions that can fuck up your senses and perceptions permanently or having your mind reduced to that lower of a comatose patient equivalent to a living vegetable by Luke's class of telepathy.



I'm not entirely sure mind fuck works on god-like beings to be honest. If it did Omnipotents and the like would be pretty easy to deal with for most people with mindfuck.

There's also the fact that Aiwass power, whatever it is since the manga states his powers cannot be comprehended or something along those lines, completely nullified Accelerator's vector power. And it's mere presence caused everyone around it to be auto-KO'd.


----------



## zenieth (Jul 23, 2010)

There substantial proof to make AIWASS a nigh omni?


----------



## Platinum (Jul 23, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> I'm not entirely sure mind fuck works on god-like beings to be honest. If it did Omnipotents and the like would be pretty easy to deal with for most people with mindfuck.



That makes absolutely no sense. Just because something is god like doesn't make it immune to everything. And guess what it wouldn't work on an omnipotent because.... they are omnipotent .


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

Aiwass is mean to be a entity higher than angels, angelic spells already mess with solar system, a few of them are self defense like divine punishment which takes away the councisness of anyone trying to do anything "bad" to the target in question.


----------



## God (Jul 23, 2010)

Pein and Aizen = God.

Pein and Aizen = Omnipotents?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Pein and Aizen = God.
> 
> Pein and Aizen = Omnipotents?



In their dreams maybe.


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 23, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Pein and Aizen = God.
> 
> Pein and Aizen = Omnipotents?



Self proclaimed gods. 

And Aiwass isn't omnipotent, but to say that simple mindfuck would deal with it doesn't sound very credible. Has Luke ever mind fucked an actual god like being before?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> Self proclaimed gods.
> 
> And Aiwass isn't omnipotent, but to say that simple mindfuck would deal with it doesn't sound very credible. Has Luke ever mind fucked an actual god like being before?



He's mindfucked cosmic beings from what I've heard.


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Aiwass is mean to be a entity higher than angels, angelic spells already mess with solar system, a few of them are self defense like divine punishment which takes away the councisness of anyone trying to do anything "bad" to the target in question.



Luke has killed a veritable Force spawn dark side incarnate creature in the name of Abeloth, who the Celestials had to create the Maw black holes and an entire star system along with a star system moving super weapon to contain her psychic influence tens of thousands of years ago.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

Ok now reword so it make sense... I feel like reading twilight in the way you write it.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Ok now reword so it make sense... I feel like reading twilight in the way you write it.



In other words, mindfucking a cosmic being created through the Force that gives even Celestials a hard time.


----------



## zenieth (Jul 23, 2010)

He's saying Skywalker defeated a being that could very well be considered the pure embodiment of the dark side of the force. Said being needed to be restrained by black holes and a star system rearranging weapon.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 23, 2010)

zenieth said:


> He's saying Skywalker defeated a being that could very well be considered the pure embodiment of the dark side of the force. Said being needed to be restrained by black holes and a star system rearranging weapon.



And the Celestials are these guys for reference.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 23, 2010)

According to this, she is not even beyond planet buster, and was not killed, and when she was defeat was a saber duel not force mind rape.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> According to this, she is not even beyond planet buster, and was not killed, and when she was defeat was a saber duel not force mind rape.



it might be that the wiki is REALLY bad at making stuff sound impressive but Abeloth doesnt sound that strong at all when you read the profile. Most awesome thing in that page was control of all fauna and flora on a planet.


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

Yeah, and Wookieepedia makes no statement in its description that Zenoma Sekot has star system ranging TK or survived a galaxy level holocaust like its parent did. Your point?


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> Yeah, and Wookieepedia makes no statement in its description that Zenoma Sekot has star system ranging TK or survived a galaxy level holocaust like its parent did.



fix it?i mean it IS a wiki isnt it?


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 23, 2010)

TWF said:


> this guy is making the mistake that I care at all



sorry that i didnt know about your conceited holier-than-thou attitude?


----------



## Fang (Jul 23, 2010)

I'm not joining a Wiki site for your benefit.



Xelloss said:


> Ok now reword so it make sense... I feel like reading twilight in the way you write it.



???



zenieth said:


> He's saying Skywalker defeated a being that could very well be considered the pure embodiment of the dark side of the force. Said being needed to be restrained by black holes and a star system rearranging weapon.



Not quite. The Celestials have created artifical planets, star systems, and black holes. The Maw is the most famous example as well as a star system busting super weapon.

What I am saying is that Abeloth's psychic/telepathic/empathetic power, capacity, range, and skill is so great that she could cause a pure psychosis to manifest in the current generation of young Jedi who are now Jedi Knights, while still being contained on her world by Centerpoint Station and Sinkhole station.

Two black holes that Sinkhole Station orbits helped contain her influence until she started making Force-Users all over different parts of the galaxy go insane, have new powers, show new abilities.

The Celestials feared her.



Xelloss said:


> According to this, she is not even beyond planet buster, and was not killed, and when she was defeat was a saber duel not force mind rape.



That has nothing to do with her power in the Force that even nefed she could still control completely a planet's entire native fauna and slowly changer and alter the world.

Fuck she was using illusions and astral projections on an entire crew of the Sith and destroying their shuttles while still nerfed and none of them could detect or countermand her influence or power. Or even see her true appearance and form.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 24, 2010)

Changing it matters for the present debate/thread how?This is not about some kind of "holier than thou attitude". It's about expecting a wiki, a source of reference which is subject to errors to be 100% accurate. You are supposed to expect a wiki to not be 100% accurate and even lacking some info. You used the wiki, it lacked complete info and thus rendered the article as a source of reference useless for this thread.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 24, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Changing it matters for the present debate/thread how?This is not about some kind of "holier than thou attitude". It's about expecting a wiki, a source of reference which is subject to errors to be 100% accurate. You are supposed to expect a wiki to not be 100% accurate and even lacking some info. You used the wiki, it lacked complete info and thus rendered the article as a source of reference useless for this thread.



??? mebbe the holier than thou attitude was badly worded, i was referring to how 

1) i made a calc backed claim about how accelerator has an attack in the exatons
2) TWF called Bullshit on me
3) i told him it was calc based
4) he told me he doesnt trust those figures from /a/ or w/e
5) i redid the calc and gave him links and everything to make it as independant as possible
6)he told me to make a metadome thread before he would bother looking at it and stop calling bullshit
7)i did wat he said
8)he said he didnt care in the first place and didnt bother reading it

if he really didnt care about it in the first place why the fuck did he even call bullshit. its not a holier than thou attitude now that i think about it, its just TWF being a fucking conceited troll.


----------



## Fang (Jul 24, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> if he really didnt care about it in the first place why the fuck did he even call bullshit. its not a holier than thou attitude now that i think about it, its just TWF being a fucking conceited troll.



Weak attempt at ad hominem.

How am I a troll for not giving a shit about you repeatedly trying to deflect from the topic in the thread and making incredibly annoying pot-shot snipes at me while trying to save face here for yourself. 

Especially with a name dropped feat which you take at face value?

Not my problem. Now please go post in another thread trying not to seem like you wank Accelerator but then arguing that he can Vector the Flash, the Runner, Odin, or the Shrike or GER. 

It seems to be your MO.


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 24, 2010)

TWF said:


> Weak attempt at ad hominem.
> 
> How am I a troll for not giving a shit about you repeatedly trying to deflect from the topic in the thread and making incredibly annoying pot-shot snipes at me while trying to save face here for yourself.
> 
> ...


If Accelerator can update his vector change to include the speed force, then the Speed Force will be useless against him. 

Accelerator has updated his Vector change ability to include over 25,000 enegies and include matter that can never exist in the universe.

The latter was all Kakine Teitoku ability "Dark Matter". Accelerator can create Darkwings which use the Dark Matter power.

For more info on Dark Matter click spoiler

*Spoiler*: __ 




Accelerator who can reflect all vectors was actually hurt by an outside attack.

“That was ‘refraction’. Light or electromagnetic waves change direction when passing through narrow gaps; this is common knowledge even in high school textbooks. Using multiple gaps at the same time will make the waves interfere with each other.”

Simply put it’s by refracting light through the countless unseen gaps on the wings to change the nature of sunlight and use it to attack Accelerator. It’s not that the white wings give off light itself, but light are changed by refracted through it.

“Ah, the value of things depends on how you use them. So, how does it feel to be burned to death by sunlight?”

However,

“… Go back and study up on physics, you idiot. No matter how you refract sunlight it doesn’t change the nature of it into something like a beam of light that kills.”

“Hm, that is indeed the case with the normal physics of this world.”

“But! My ‘Dark Matter’ is matter that does not exist in this world! It completely disobeys the laws of physics of this world. Sunlight that gets refracted by the ‘Dark Matter’ will also have its own set of laws! Foreign bodies are like this, just by mixing in a little bit the world will completely change!” 

“The sunlight and wind that is affected by the ‘Dark Matter’ have been infused in it 25,000 different kind of energies. Then by observing your ‘reflect’ and filtering system that judges which energies are deemed ‘harmful’ or not and use the energies that is ‘subconsciously accepted as not harmful’ to attack you.”

Even if Accelerator changes his rules which reflect is based on, Kakine Teitoku will immediately use his Dark Matter to inspect the change. The repeated attack and defence this way will only make Accelerator’s wounds get worse and worse.

“Such is ‘Dark Matter’.”

Kakine Teitoku smiled and spread his wings.




In lehmans terms "Dark Matter" is Kakine changing the rules of matter, which Kakine can change to his liking. 
I think he made a laser/light beam infused with 25,000 energies vectorless so that it would harm accelerator.


----------



## Fang (Jul 24, 2010)

Speed Force doesn't have Vectors, too bad.


----------



## zenieth (Jul 24, 2010)

When the hell has dark matter been foreign to the universe? Shit we're probably fully submerged in dark matter right now.


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 24, 2010)

TWF said:


> Speed Force doesn't have Vectors, too bad.


I know thats why i said if Accelerator can update his Vector change ability he can adapt to the Speed Force.

If he cannot update vector change, then the abilities of the Speed Force will work on Accelerator.
Accelerator vs Flash does not make sense, if flash touches Accelerator his blood will be reversed and his internal organs will explode.

Accelerator has already updated it to include Imaginary Vectors, Kakine "Dark Matter" used Imaginary Vectors. 
Imaginary Vectors would be vectorless in the universe(real world) since they are Imaginary, the do not exist to the universe(real world). 
Just like a dreams do not exist in the universe(real world), but it does in you Imagination(dreams).

It is confusing, but hopefully you can understand some of what i wrote. 



zenieth said:


> When the hell has dark matter been foreign to the universe? Shit we're probably fully submerged in dark matter right now.


Dark Matter ability is made up for To Aru Verse, It is not the same and should not be confused with any other Dark Matter in fiction or non-fiction.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 24, 2010)

zenieth said:


> When the hell has dark matter been foreign to the universe? Shit we're probably fully submerged in dark matter right now.



Just to clear up, his enemy code name is "Darkmatter", his power is to create elmenets that doesnt exist on the universe or modify existing elements into things out of the universe.

But accelerator also can control the normal know darkmatter.


----------



## zenieth (Jul 24, 2010)

any of said energy cosmic level and multiversal?


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 24, 2010)

Not that I am aware that must be reserved so far for angels as mages and esper use mana, while angels use teslma, and humans cant cast angelic magic.

Also is something doesnt have vectos like the elements created by darkmatter or things twisted by him, accelerator can control them due to his imaginary vectors.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 24, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Not that I am aware that must be reserved so far for angels as mages and esper use mana, while angels use teslma, and humans cant cast angelic magic.
> 
> Also is something doesnt have vectos like the elements created by darkmatter or things twisted by him, accelerator can control them due to his imaginary vectors.



So he can control things that aren't normally there. Hence imaginary vectors, correct?


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 24, 2010)

basch71 said:


> So he can control things that aren't normally there. Hence imaginary vectors, correct?


Absolute Correct


----------



## zenieth (Jul 24, 2010)

None of that says he'll do shit to speed force.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 24, 2010)

I am aware of that, but this is vs Luke so now we reviving the old flash vs accelerator for a strawhat?


----------



## Fang (Jul 24, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> If Accelerator can update his vector change to include the speed force, then the Speed Force will be useless against him.
> 
> Accelerator has updated his Vector change ability to include over 25,000 enegies and include matter that can never exist in the universe.
> 
> ...



Whose doing what, Xelloss?


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 24, 2010)

Now you lost me, I am just saying why bring back the old topic of speed force.


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 24, 2010)

TWF said:


> Weak attempt at ad hominem.
> 
> How am I a troll for not giving a shit about you repeatedly trying to deflect from the topic in the thread and making incredibly annoying pot-shot snipes at me while trying to save face here for yourself.
> 
> ...


All i remember was this. 

On the real, back to Luke Skywalker.

I think Angels take him down.


----------



## Fang (Jul 24, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Now you lost me, I am just saying why bring back the old topic of speed force.



Your buddy is the one who brought it up, why are you blaming others?


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 24, 2010)

TWF said:


> Your buddy is the one who brought it up, why are you blaming others?


I was joking dude, thats why i put the the little smilies.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 24, 2010)

Just because we like the same fiction doesnt mean we have the same views of it, I already state his max would be planet buster, nothing behond ftl, and his attacks are at best light speed.

While Pika thinkgs if a attack is in a concentrated ray he can take on a multiversal, have ftl attacks, etc


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 24, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Just because we like the same fiction doesnt mean we have the same views of it, I already state his max would be planet buster, nothing behond ftl, and his attacks are at best light speed.
> 
> While Pika thinkgs if a attack is in a concentrated ray he can take on a multiversal, have ftl attacks, etc


I think Pika is using alot of Physics & Maths with Accelerator, which is fine. 

But the problem is Vectors in Maths are crazy, you can redirect infinity with Vectors -_- 



Using inverse matrix, i have learnt this in Uni (Vectors on the Cartesian Plane how exciting LOL). 
Sine & Co-Sine are sound wave and can continue infinite. Inverse matrix can screw with it and make it go the other way around.
Di-graph (Directed Graph) is another example of vectors in Maths.

Using Maths Accelerator can redirect FTL blasts & Attacks of any Magnitude no sweat which is crazy even in fiction.


----------



## Abigail (Jul 24, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Just because we like the same fiction doesnt mean we have the same views of it, I already state his max would be planet buster, nothing behond ftl, and his attacks are at best light speed.





Abigail said:


> Massively FTL TK you gave Luke.
> 
> In RotJ, when Luke sent a telepathic message to Leia, even if they were only 1 lightyears apart and it took an entire day to reach her it would still make his telepathy 365 times c.
> 
> ...


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 24, 2010)

Of course here u are taking my mistake of telekinesis and telepathy which has no value, but thanks for the correction anyways.


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 24, 2010)

Luke Skywalker cannot defeat angels because their real bodies are in a different realm, probably heaven.

Maybe he can beat Fuze=Kazakiri, but i doubt it. I have seen inside her head and it lacks a brain. So any sort of mind rape is out the window.


----------



## Fang (Jul 24, 2010)

And neither do Logias when they transform into their elements, that has nothing to do with offensive mental control or telepathy, not having a physical brain won't save a person from a Force-User mindraping them, as Luke has used this on droids and technology in SW repeatedly. 

As for his telekinesis range, control and precision, he's thrown Shadow Bombs at relativistic speeds during the Vong War.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 24, 2010)

TWF said:


> And neither do Logias when they transform into their elements, that has nothing to do with offensive mental control or telepathy, not having a physical brain won't save a person from a Force-User mindraping them, as Luke has used this on droids and technology in SW repeatedly.



don't forget sentient crystals


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 24, 2010)

TWF said:


> And neither do Logias when they transform into their elements, that has nothing to do with offensive mental control or telepathy, not having a physical brain won't save a person from a Force-User mindraping them, as Luke has used this on droids and technology in SW repeatedly.
> 
> As for his telekinesis range, control and precision, he's thrown Shadow Bombs at relativistic speeds during the Vong War.


Wow, MM eat ur heart out and then eat it again after it regens.

Well guess we now the outcome now.

I assume Luke has FTL speed of thought


----------



## Fang (Jul 24, 2010)

Luke has precognition. And can teleport stuff now anyways since Fate of the Jedi with Fold-Space that he learned.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 24, 2010)

TWF said:


> Weak attempt at ad hominem.
> 
> How am I a troll for not giving a shit about you repeatedly trying to deflect from the topic in the thread and making incredibly annoying pot-shot snipes at me while trying to save face here for yourself.
> 
> ...



considering the topic was a gauntlet fight and accelerator was in this gauntlet fight, i hardly think its a deflection since im trying to give feats for one of the characters in this thread. Besides, you started this in the first place by calling bullshit on one of the calced feats, it was my job to try to prove that the feat was correct anyways

secondly how is it a name-dropped feat?

thirdly ive never said anything about odin or GER and i know that he cannnot vector the flash and the runner but he can vector the flash.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 24, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Just because we like the same fiction doesnt mean we have the same views of it, I already state his max would be planet buster, nothing behond ftl, and his attacks are at best light speed.
> 
> While Pika thinkgs if a attack is in a concentrated ray he can take on a multiversal, have ftl attacks, etc



not FTL attacks since that leads to shitstorms, and the concentrated ray thing is highly situational, since no  universal, heck few solar system level busters would bother trying to do somethign like that, (not planetbusters, as i just realized everyone in dragonball z tries to concentrate their blasts to not blow earth up) they'd just blow the entire planet and accel dies after darkwing runs out. Theoretically he SHOULD be able to, but its highly unlikely such a situation would arise.




MisterShin said:


> I think Pika is using alot of Physics & Maths with Accelerator, which is fine.
> 
> But the problem is Vectors in Maths are crazy, you can redirect infinity with Vectors -_-
> 
> ...




=__= you know i only started physics at school this year right? basic maths and physics for me dude.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 24, 2010)

TWF said:


> And neither do Logias when they transform into their elements, that has nothing to do with offensive mental control or telepathy, not having a physical brain won't save a person from a Force-User mindraping them, as Luke has used this on *droids* and technology in SW repeatedly.
> 
> As for his telekinesis range, control and precision, he's thrown Shadow Bombs at relativistic speeds during the Vong War.



now thats really confusing, did you just say luke mindfucked a DROID??? o.O

how the heck does that work, he fried its circuits or sumthing?

i know droids have consciousness and all (lol clone wars) but still, thats waaay out there.


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 24, 2010)

Basically this thread is going nowhere and has turned into a "My fiction is more haxed than yours" debate. This is never going to end until one side just gets tired.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 24, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> the concrete wall has been calced at around exaton levels of force ( something times 10^26 joules of force iirc)



Death star is 1e38j. Aka 12 orders of magnitude, or a trillion times, greater than that.



TWF said:


> You have zero idea of what your talking about, especially with the capacity of what teraton/petaton/exaton firepower does.
> 
> Luke casually breaks starships that can take hundreds of teratons on their shields and armor. Fact.



From the inside. Their shields and armor can only take those kinds of attacks from the outside.



TWF said:


> I don't trust numbers from a guy reposting them thinking Accelerator could vector Marvel and DC Herald class beings.
> 
> Or info from fucking /a/ to top-it-all.



Poisoning the Well fallacy.



Crimson Dragoon said:


> I'm pretty sure the starship sensors that Luke can fool have detected ships traveling through hyperspace



I'm pretty sure they can't, as in ANH they needed to put a tracking device on the Millenium Falcon to follow it, and Han was pretty sure it would be impossible for them to track it through hyperspace with their sensors.


----------



## God (Jul 24, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> If Accelerator can update his vector change to include the speed force, then the Speed Force will be useless against him.



Doesn't change the fact that he won't be able to do shit to a FTL speedster with IMP. 



> Accelerator has updated his Vector change ability to include over 25,000 enegies and include matter that can never exist in the universe.



Ok, how does that help him against Flash?


----------



## SasuOna (Jul 24, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> Basically this thread is going nowhere and has turned into a "My fiction is more haxed than yours" debate. This is never going to end until one side just gets tired.



I thought this was a gauntlet unless the OP specified whether or not Luke is healed between each round I'm pretty sure him mind raping multiple cosmic level beings is going to be impossible.


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 24, 2010)

SasuOna said:


> I thought this was a gauntlet unless the OP specified whether or not Luke is healed between each round I'm pretty sure him mind raping multiple cosmic level beings is going to be impossible.



I meant the debaters, not the fighters.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Death star is 1e38j. Aka 12 orders of magnitude, or a trillion times, greater than that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



still exatons is a lot bigger htan teraton level firepower star destroyers are packed with, and i doubt luke could tank a hit from a SD's main turbolaser

and finally someone sees some sense in my calcs thank you.


on topic though, whats to stop gabriel Teleporting the sun into luke? i mean she did teleport it to a different position in the solar system for lulz, dont see why not she cant tp it to luke (gabriel should be able to tank the sun, as Index and the pope's walking church robes were stated to be able to withstand being in the corona of the sun for 3 days and gabriel being one of the christian Archangels is MUCH MUCH stronger than any mage, so it makes sense she would have more potent defenses as well. At the very least she would be able to cast walking church spell on herself and soak up some damage.)


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 25, 2010)

I have just realise, how the hell does Luke beats Vent who has Divine Punishment.

:mj


----------



## Rashou (Jul 25, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> on topic though, whats to stop gabriel Teleporting the sun into luke? i mean she did teleport it to a different position in the solar system for lulz, dont see why not she cant tp it to luke (gabriel should be able to tank the sun, as Index and the pope's walking church robes were stated to be able to withstand being in the corona of the sun for 3 days and gabriel being one of the christian Archangels is MUCH MUCH stronger than any mage, so it makes sense she would have more potent defenses as well. At the very least she would be able to cast walking church spell on herself and soak up some damage.)


Standard OBD settings mean this is the Hyperbolic time chamber. No sun.


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 25, 2010)

Rashou said:


> Standard OBD settings mean this is the Hyperbolic time chamber. No sun.



If it is the time chamber, then some abilities may be hindered by the 10x Gravity and harsh environment, such as very thin air, extreme hot and cold weather. 

Or do the effects of the time chamber simply not count in battles.


----------



## God (Jul 25, 2010)

Thin air wont do much when Magneto manipulates oxygen molecules, and lol at gravity hindering *Magneto.*


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 25, 2010)

This is luke no magneto thread.


----------



## God (Jul 25, 2010)

So many ToAru threads these days 

Though I'm sure Luke has some godly feat for that stuff too.


----------



## Fang (Jul 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> From the inside. Their shields and armor can only take those kinds of attacks from the outside.



Armor works both ways for conventional Wars warships. This has been hit home dozens of times anyways over the years by Wong and the others at SD.net. And it doesn't matter anyways.



> I'm pretty sure they can't, as in ANH they needed to put a tracking device on the Millennium Falcon to follow it, and Han was pretty sure it would be impossible for them to track it through hyperspace with their sensors.



They put a tracking device on the Falcon because they didn't know where the fuck the Rebel base was in the Outer Rim territories so they let Leia and the others break out of the Death Sta.

And its kind of hard to hope the Death Star afterward instantaneously follows them while praying that Han doesn't look out a viewport and sees a 160 kilometer large battle station trying to stealth its way out of being seen so they wouldn't abort the jump..

Secondly Han also thought half the *entire* conventional warships of the line from Imperial Starfleet couldn't mass combined firepower near the Death Star's own. And he's absolutely wrong. You know this as well.



pikachuwei said:


> *snip*



One, that TK feat was described as Luke snaping the spine of said warship like a branch being turned into two twigs.

Two, Luke has the Force the best prescience of any Force-User: Effectively FTL/instantaneous speed of thought, and precognition, plus Shatterpoints. 

And the fact that Luke can now teleport stuff with Fold-Space.

And ignoring that Luke has used Electromagnetic Radiation on the Jade Shadow to weather electric storms while it was moving at relativistic speeds.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

TWF said:


> Armor works both ways for conventional Wars warships. This has been hit home dozens of times anyways over the years by Wong and the others at SD.net. And it doesn't matter anyways.



TK attacks ships from inside. Armor is built to resist attacks from outside. Besides, it's not like he tries to destroy the ships by attacking their armor from the inside, he targets critical systems like reactors, cooling systems, engines, etc. Shields and armor are irrelevant against that.



> They put a tracking device on the Falcon because they didn't know where the fuck the Rebel base was in the Outer Rim territories so they let Leia and the others break out of the Death Sta.



If they could track ships in hyperspace with their sensors they could have just followed them, no beacon required.



> And its kind of hard to hope the Death Star afterward instantaneously follows them while praying that Han doesn't look out a viewport and sees a 160 kilometer large battle station trying to stealth its way out of being seen so they wouldn't abort the jump..



They would abort the jump because they were being chased? Not exactly logical. In fact that would probably make them want to jump faster. Han jumped when being pursued by Star Destroyers, after all.



> Secondly Han also thought half the *entire* conventional warships of the line from Imperial Starfleet couldn't mass combined firepower near the Death Star's own. And he's absolutely wrong. You know this as well.



Except destroying planets isn't something he really needs to know much about in his line of work as a smuggler, but the ability of sensors to track ships in hyperspace would be essential for him to know.


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 26, 2010)

^^Shitstorm is imminent.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 26, 2010)

My guess is that Luke gets to Demon God Index and stops there. After that he gets rapes by the angels and Aiwass. Main reason being is that Index is completely resistant to mind rape, and luke can not get past her barrier of warped space and time. 



TWF said:


> Whose going to make Luke die?



Aiwass, Gabriel, Demon God Index and maybe Accelerator.




Crimson Dragoon said:


> Luke blocks real lasers



You make it sound like that is impressive. ToAru mid tiers block real lasers.





Crimson Dragoon said:


> how protected is it


Enough to protect against the queens powers. Really though, Mind rape falls under imaginary vectors, so no matter how far its range is, I doubt it would work on accelerator. 



TWF said:


> No one cares what /a/ calced especially since I remember the number sounding inflated as fuck.


Except we had the calc redone on here several times, and it was considered to be fairly accurate. I believe that skiboydoggy and a few other notable members also recalced the feat and proved it was legitimate. 



TWF said:


> And not a single one compares to high tier Force Users who have casually mind-raped entire planetary systems of psychics, so what's your point?



We have books in ToAru which do the same thing. Accelerator would be able to defend against them. That is more of a range thing then a power thing either way.



KumogakureRaikage said:


> Now this is where I see Luke Stopping. He's not beating Aiwass if what I heard about it is true.



Beating aiwass....? HAHAHAHAHAHA.



TWF said:


> Yeah, I don't give a darn either way nor do I trust it.



It was calced like 3 or 4 times by several different people. If that calc isn't trustworthy then I don't know what calc is. Your basically denying all the evidence that is given to you.



TWF said:


> Prove their legitmate, your burden, not mine.


It was proven, in several threads, most of which are in the meta.



TWF said:


> this guy is making the mistake that I care at all



Except you specifically asked him to supply proof, and that is what he did. All your doing now saying "no he can't" even when evidence is put right in front of your face.



TWF said:


> Which is the canon material for ToARU?


The novels. However, for the most part, the anime sticks fairly close to the novels, other then the anime being much weaker.




TWF said:


> And adaption isn't canon, DB's anime isn't canon to the manga. Unless you have specific statements that define To-ARU's canon and continuity in various medias, that's kind of a big problem for you.



The railgun manga is canon, the railgun anime is secondary canon, the index manga is not canon, the index anime is not canon, and all of the novels are canon.



TWF said:


> So he/it/whatever does it in the novel?


Yes, and much much more.



> Or did the anime make it look impressive since he didn't need some sort of prep?



No, The anime downplayed the feats, and left out important pieces of information which would have made it more powerful. For instance, Gabriel had 3 spells at hand, all of which could easily destroy the world, but the anime left that piece of information out.



TWF said:


> Immortality is good and dandy but that still has nothing to do with astral manipulation, illusions that can fuck up your senses and perceptions permanently or having your mind reduced to that lower of a comatose patient equivalent to a living vegetable by Luke's class of telepathy.



Lol at any of those working on a thing which can not be killed even if it's existence is wiped out.



zenieth said:


> There substantial proof to make AIWASS a nigh omni?



He made the statements himself. He said that even if his core were destroyed he would continue to live on. He is also stated to be above the Archangels, who reality warp on a solar system scale, and can destroy planets just by thinking about it. His one weakness is that he can not exist in the human realm if there isn't a high concentration of AIM in the area he is in.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 26, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> You make it sound like that is impressive. ToAru mid tiers block real lasers.



oh yeah, you're right, it isn't impressive considering an average Force User can deflect a laser too and he was pretty rusty as well 

just wanted to clarify that, I really don't have too much interest in this anymore unless there's an opportunity to make a witty comment


----------



## Es (Jul 26, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> -Snip-


----------



## Fang (Jul 26, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> My guess is that Luke gets to Demon God Index and stops there. After that he gets rapes by the angels and Aiwass. Main reason being is that Index is completely resistant to mind rape, and luke can not get past her barrier of warped space and time.



Prove it.



> Aiwass, Gabriel, Demon God Index and maybe Accelerator.



Accelerator gets mindfucked in one millionth of a second when he faces Luke.



> You make it sound like that is impressive. ToAru mid tiers block real lasers.



You make it sounds impressive for your side, the said feat was replicated by a low-tier Jedi Knight who couldn't even sense the droid firing on him and wasn't even paying attention when he subconsciously anticipated the laser.

And Luke has done it to fucking turbolasers.



> Enough to protect against the queens powers. Really though, Mind rape falls under imaginary vectors, so no matter how far its range is, I doubt it would work on accelerator.



No limits, check. 



> Except we had the calc redone on here several times, and it was considered to be fairly accurate. I believe that skiboydoggy and a few other notable members also recalced the feat and proved it was legitimate.



The calc checked out only when you took the absolutely highest values, so does that mean that I get to say Luke can generate passive Force barriers that can at least deal with teraton to petaton level turbolasers when he blocks them with his lightsaber?

Okay.



> We have books in ToAru which do the same thing. Accelerator would be able to defend against them. That is more of a range thing then a power thing either way.



Bullshit. Show me evidence of them resisting mind-fucking from Force-Users going anyway from mind-fucking millions of psychics to telepathically dominating over 20 billion people or draining entire planets at their leisure.



> *snip*



 Rashou whose known for being neutral even came up with petatons. So far the high range is, wait for it, the you, and the To-ARU guys.



> It was proven, in several threads, most of which are in the meta.
> 
> Uh huh.
> 
> ...


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2010)

Impressive you demand for force users, when he already use a person (The queen) with the same power set as it comes to mind rape, actually if you bother to calculated the numbers used where rounded down, and there’s isn’t "max" numbers when earth rotation is a constant, and 5 minutes its a time constant unless you plan to say math change from one universe to other.

Index tear space and time as a defense, show us Luke attacking something on a void of time and space.


@Mike: While I understand sometimes I fail to express myself and you love to point out that, I recall you saying once we should focus on the debate and not pick others errors.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Impressive you demand for force users, when he already use a person with the same power set, actually if you bother to calculated the numbers used those where rounded down, and theres ni "max" numbers when earth rotation is a constand, and 5 minutes its a time constant unless you plan to say math change from one universe to other.
> 
> Index tear space and time as a defense, show us lukeattacking something on a void of time and space.



This would probably be a convincing argument if your grammar wasn't so horrible I can't tell WTF you are saying.


----------



## Fang (Jul 26, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Impressive you demand for force users, when he already use a person (The queen) with the same power set as it comes to mind rape, actually if you bother to calculated the numbers used where rounded down, and theres isnt "max" numbers when earth rotation is a constant, and 5 minutes its a time constant unless you plan to say math change from one universe to other.



Like EM said with absolutely no offense but I can't make heads or tails of what your point with this is.



> Index tear space and time as a defense, show us luke attacking something on a void of time and space.



And even a noobie Luke has mind-fucked people traveling at FTL speeds in a separate dimension where time-space exists in a different way when Cronal was in hyperspace and outside of the star system Luke was in at the end of Shadows of Mindor.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> This would probably be a convincing argument if your grammar wasn't so horrible I can't tell WTF you are saying.



maybe he's talking like yoda in his own fashion

I can't even understand the first line.

EDIT: 


How long does it take luke to mindfuck the shit out of anyone?


----------



## zenieth (Jul 26, 2010)

I think Xelloss is trying to say that there are people with abilities similar to force users and that the calc for accelerator's wall feat wasn't an outlier.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> @Mike: While I understand sometimes I fail to express myself and you love to point out that, I recall you saying once we should focus on the debate and not pick others errors.



It's kind of hard to focus on the debate if you have no idea what the other guy is even saying.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> It's kind of hard to focus on the debate if you have no idea what the other guy is even saying.



Really? It was quite easy to understand.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2010)

I know what you are trying to say, is that the kinetic blast is not a outline, the guy create f7 tornados, split the continental mass or euroasia, create tsunamis of rock.


----------



## 11wongjk2 (Jul 26, 2010)

@xellos

is there any feat you can show that willl prove "the queen" is around luke level in mindrape?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> I know what you are trying to say, is that the kinetic blast is not a outline, the guy create f7 tornados, split the continental mass or euroasia, create tsunamis of rock.



Which is nothing compared to what Darth Nihilus can do, and Luke is stronger than him.


----------



## Fang (Jul 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Which is nothing compared to what Darth Nihilus can do, and Luke is stronger than him.



Nihilus is basically like entropy incarnate in Star Wars.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2010)

11wongjk2 said:


> @xellos
> 
> is there any feat you can show that willl prove "the queen" is around luke level in mindrape?



In styles yes, in quantity of affecting people no... the best mind rape in toAru was the scroll of constantine mind rapping 2 billion people and it didnt affect accelerator.

@Mike while not as impressive I am trying to say the feats are valid instead of outright negate them, they are less destructive.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

If they're not enough to win, why do they matter?


----------



## Fang (Jul 26, 2010)

So, she still doesn't compare Luke then when it comes to telepathy.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 26, 2010)

TWF said:


> Prove it.


Prove what? that she has a space time barrier? That she can't be mind fucked?

For the space time barrier.

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Mind you that the only reason Touma could break through that barrier was because of his anti-supernatural abilities.

For the mind fucking. The most I could do for that is show scans from the manga where it was stated that the books in her head would kill any other person. But that is really pointless. The main point of the first book was that is that she took 103,000 books into her head that are corrosive to the mind. 




> Accelerator gets mindfucked in one millionth of a second when he faces Luke.


Except he doesn't. He has resistance to mind rape.


> You make it sounds impressive for your side, the said feat was replicated by a low-tier Jedi Knight who couldn't even sense the droid firing on him and wasn't even paying attention when he subconsciously anticipated the laser.
> 
> And Luke has done it to fucking turbolasers.



I didn't say it was impressive on my side.



> No limits, check.



Since when did I claim anything with no limits? The only think that Luke has over the queen is range, and the amount of people she can effect. Luke's range doesn't really matter considering that he is only fighting one person at a time. It doesn't matter how many people it can effect when it is only being used against one person. One mind getting turned to mush is still one mind getting turned to mush.

Though this gives me a idea for a thread in the Meta.



> The calc checked out only when you took the absolutely highest values, so does that mean that I get to say Luke can generate passive Force barriers that can at least deal with teraton to petaton level turbolasers when he blocks them with his lightsaber?



It wasn't at the absolute highest value. As others have stated, even with a low end calc, it was still enough for a planetary lifewipe that surpassed the output of all nukes on earth.




> Bullshit. Show me evidence of them resisting mind-fucking from Force-Users going anyway from mind-fucking millions of psychics to telepathically dominating over 20 billion people or draining entire planets at their leisure.



Bullshit on what? Accelerator has resisted a scroll which can mind fuck millions of people.



> Rashou whose known for being neutral even came up with petatons. So far the high range is, wait for it, the you, and the To-ARU guys.



Link to the calc please?



> Uh huh.


I'll see if I can find the threads tommarow.




> Argument ad naseum.



I don't even know what part of my post you quoted here.



> So post the evidence from the novels then if the anime is weaksauce instead of referencing it and try and powerscale, I've noticed in all these To-ARU vs threads that I never see you guys posting excerpts like everyone else does for novel series.



That would be the first thing we could do if that was actually possible.

Unfortunately, most of the novels aren't translated, and information is gotten second hand from people who can actually read the novels in Japanese.

So far the only translated novels are 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, and 15 is starting to get translated. I may be able to find and post a chinese translation, which I found once before, but that would be kind of pointless since I don't think anyone on here can read chinese.

Novel 4 had a lot of good feats, but the most we can do is post feats from the anime, or from a secondary source. Since novel 4 is untranslated.





> And he losses in speed to Luke and gets mind-fucked.


Or you know, Gabriel soul fucks him and makes him useless just by existing. Or throws the sun at him assuming he is put somewhere where he can use the sun.

And good luck to luke trying to kill him. Gabriel can only be killed if his core is destroyed, and that is in another dimension. 




> Provide proof why it doesn't.



Because this is a character who is unaffected by planetary soul fucks, his existence being wiped out, resisting a scroll which mind rapes the whole planet. he has also made people fall unconscious just because he was near them. Mind raping isn't doing shit to him. 




> And the evidence that he still can't be mindfucked is...?



Because this is a character that can be wiped out of existence and still exist. Your wanking is really getting out of hand.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Prove what? that she has a space time barrier? That she can't be mind fucked?
> 
> For the space time barrier.
> 
> ...



So what? Luke can attack in hyperspace, which is another dimension.



> For the mind fucking. The most I could do for that is show scans from the manga where it was stated that the books in her head would kill any other person. But that is really pointless. The main point of the first book was that is that she took 103,000 books into her head that are corrosive to the mind.



Luke can affect billions or trillions of minds at once, one mind has way more information capacity than any book.



> Except he doesn't. He has resistance to mind rape.



Luffy has resistance to electricity. Does that mean he could survive a blast from Thor?



> Since when did I claim anything with no limits? The only think that Luke has over the queen is range, and the amount of people she can effect. Luke's range doesn't really matter considering that he is only fighting one person at a time. One mind getting turned to mush is still one mind getting turned to mush.



Higher range and ability to influence more people = more power.



> Bullshit on what? Accelerator has resisted a scroll which can mind fuck millions of people.



Palpatine mindfucked likely trillions of people (based on Coruscant's population density) to hide the Lusankya. Luke is above him.



> That would be the first thing we could do if that was actually possible.
> 
> Unfortunately, most of the novels aren't translated, and information is gotten second hand from people who can actually read the novels in Japanese.
> 
> ...



Concession accepted.



> Or you know, Gabriel soul fucks him and makes him useless just by existing.



Reborn Palpatine could soulfuck people and Luke beat him.



> Or throws the sun at him assuming he is put somewhere where he can use the sun.



Luke anticipates it with precog and teleports away.



> And good luck to luke trying to kill him. Gabriel can only be killed if his core is destroyed, and that is in another dimension.



Good thing Luke can attack across dimensions, then.



> Because this is a character who is unaffected by planetary soul fucks, his existence being wiped out, resisting a scroll which mind rapes the whole planet. he has also made people fall unconscious just because he was near them. Mind raping isn't doing shit to him.



He's never taken mindrape on a galactic scale.



> Because this is a character that can be wiped out of existence and still exist. Your wanking is really getting out of hand.



That has nothing to do with whether he can be mindraped or not.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2010)

We are making to many assumitions, first that it can find the core, second accelerator have feats for different types of mind rape and a powerful scroll yet not on the trillons.

Second Luke teleport is not gonna save him when the other side also have it.

Most of the novels are not translated but most of the feats are on sumaries (at least the important ones).

An "original" grimoire is a book containing knowledge about magic that is harmful even to those that are trained to handle them. The knowledge is "poisonous" in the sense that it is too "pure" for the human mind to handle and must be "watered down"- i.e. written in such a way that many of its meanings are obscured- in order for people to be able to read it without their minds being destroyed. Even then, it can still severely damage a person's mind if not properly handled. Grimoires often contain powerful spells or magic and can be very dangerous. Necessarius was set up to prevent grimoires from spreading in the first place, along with the goal of eliminating witches.

A grimoire is practically "eternal" in the sense that it cannot be destroyed with current human methods and can only be sealed away. It absorbs natural mana from the Earth itself, in addition to the minuscule mana magicians release unconsciously, to keep functioning. The structure of a grimoire is compared to that of a magic circle, with Stiyl demonstrating[1] how a magic circle written with words can end up having 2 or 3 additional lines surrounding the original circle, like sentences on a page. The only theoretically known way to destroy a grimoire, according to Ursula Aquinas, is to write data that will force it to destroy itself into it, though Touma has also considered the possibility that his Imagine Breaker can destroy grimoires[2]. Aureolus's job before he met Index was to write up vaccines that can destroy grimoires for the Roman Catholic Church. 

A grimoire also has a "mind" of its own, seeking out suitable owners that can spread its knowledge and improving itself by letting its owners add more knowledge into the grimoire[3]. Touma, before losing his memories, once described a grimoire as a computer virus that's continously evolving and spreading itself at a rate faster than that of its vaccine being designed[4]. If the grimoire judges its current owner to be unsuitable, it will kill him/her and seek out the next one, as shown in Volumes 15 and 19.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 26, 2010)

Luke is superior to  as well, and he drew on the power of millions of Killiks 

Luke pretty much resisted their collective will and owned him


----------



## Fang (Jul 26, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Except he doesn't. He has resistance to mind rape.



Except, he doesn't have anything remotely that would save him from being mind-fucked by weaker Force-Users.

So wrong again.



> I didn't say it was impressive on my side.



No, you were just implicating it.



> Since when did I claim anything with no limits?



You mean aruging that Luke can't mindfuck people who clearly have never encountered a telepath on his scale?

Or the fact that your ignoring he's used his empathy, illusions, astral projections, and telepathy non-sentients, artificial life-forms, beings stripped or outside of the Force and thus saying no?

Okay. Sure you didn't.



> The only think that Luke has over the queen is range, and the amount of people she can effect. Luke's range doesn't really matter considering that he is only fighting one person at a time. One mind getting turned to mush is still one mind getting turned to mush.



Luke completely surpasses her telepathy in every conceivable way possible and your just trying to gloss over it like its nothing since your trying to save face when the truth of the matter is when it comes to a mental showdown she's going to get fisted by him.



> It wasn't at the absolute highest value. As others have stated, even with a low end calc, it was still enough for a planetary lifewipe that surpassed the output of all nukes on earth.



Rashou says otherwise, you and the others want to see the higher value. Obviously we aren't going to met midway on this.



> Bullshit on what? Accelerator has resisted a scroll which can mind fuck millions of people.



Which is nothing in Star Wars from what weaker Force-Users have shown, so you have nothing. 



> Link to the calc please?



In its pika whatever's thread.



> I'll see if I can find the threads tommarow.



Ok.



> I don't even know what part of my post you quoted here.



Uh?



> That would be the first thing we could do if that was actually possible.
> 
> Unfortunately, most of the novels aren't translated, and information is gotten second hand from people who can actually read the novels in Japanese.
> 
> ...



cough*soundslikeGetbackersalloveragain*cough

Okay.



> Or you know, Gabriel soul fucks him and makes him useless just by existing. Or throws the sun at him assuming he is put somewhere where he can use the sun.



Or you know Luke mind-fucks him before he does anything, or teleports his core onto his lightsaber, or vice-versa.

Speed for Gabriel?



> And good luck to luke trying to kill him. Gabriel can only be killed if his core is destroyed, and that is in another dimension.



Shatterpoints: Tell's Luke how to win, what to do to win, and how to achieve that through Fate and what the target's weaknesses is, in real-time, almost instantaneously.



> Because this is a character who is unaffected by planetary soul fucks, his existence being wiped out, resisting a scroll which mind rapes the whole planet. he has also made people fall unconscious just because he was near them. Mind raping isn't doing shit to him.



Soul-fucking resistance has nothing to do with mental-resistance. You don't get to cherrypick them together like checkers over one and another.

Again, someone can be completely immortal and never permanently die, that doesn't mean you can't permanently incapacitate them. And Luke beat Raynar who could do far worse with his telepathy and psychic control. 



> Because this is a character that can be wiped out of existence and still exist. Your wanking is really getting out of hand.



One, a really weak attempt at deflection.

Two, a really weak attempt at ad hominem.

This is heavily ironic coming from a Getbackers fan and from a fandom that kept saying telepathy in Star Wars comes from Telekinesis while insisting on no limits for someone not getting mind-raped by Force-Users who would ass fuck any of them in telepathy.

El oh fucking el.



> Luke anticipates it with precog and teleports away.



I don't think Luke has shown the capacity to teleport himself, only objects and things to him with Fold-Space. Not that a bloodlusted Luke couldn't teleport his lightsaber into someone's head or something though, that's fully within his ability to do so.

Also CD, I'm pretty sure the entire Killick Hive is at least in the several billions since they were breeding at an exponential rate, and that isn't counting all the Joiners that were being inducted into the Hive as well. Or the Dark Nest itself.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> We are making to many assumitions, first that it can find the core



Shatterpoints. The Force tells him exactly what he has to do.



> second accelerator have feats for different types of mind rape and a powerful scroll yet not on the trillons.



So then he gets mindraped.



> Second Luke teleport is not gonna save him when the other side also have it.



It can help him avoid the sun since that's one of the few things mentioned so far that could kill him.



> Most of the novels are not translated but most of the feats are on sumaries (at least the important ones).



How can we trust these summaries to be accurate?



> An "original" grimoire is a book containing knowledge about magic that is harmful even to those that are trained to handle them. The knowledge is "poisonous" in the sense that it is too "pure" for the human mind to handle and must be "watered down"- i.e. written in such a way that many of its meanings are obscured- in order for people to be able to read it without their minds being destroyed. Even then, it can still severely damage a person's mind if not properly handled. Grimoires often contain powerful spells or magic and can be very dangerous. Necessarius was set up to prevent grimoires from spreading in the first place, along with the goal of eliminating witches.
> 
> A grimoire is practically "eternal" in the sense that it cannot be destroyed with current human methods and can only be sealed away. It absorbs natural mana from the Earth itself, in addition to the minuscule mana magicians release unconsciously, to keep functioning. The structure of a grimoire is compared to that of a magic circle, with Stiyl demonstrating[1] how a magic circle written with words can end up having 2 or 3 additional lines surrounding the original circle, like sentences on a page. The only theoretically known way to destroy a grimoire, according to Ursula Aquinas, is to write data that will force it to destroy itself into it, though Touma has also considered the possibility that his Imagine Breaker can destroy grimoires[2]. Aureolus's job before he met Index was to write up vaccines that can destroy grimoires for the Roman Catholic Church.
> 
> A grimoire also has a "mind" of its own, seeking out suitable owners that can spread its knowledge and improving itself by letting its owners add more knowledge into the grimoire[3]. Touma, before losing his memories, once described a grimoire as a computer virus that's continously evolving and spreading itself at a rate faster than that of its vaccine being designed[4]. If the grimoire judges its current owner to be unsuitable, it will kill him/her and seek out the next one, as shown in Volumes 15 and 19.



Okay, and your point is....?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 26, 2010)

also,


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

So it's pretty much sure Luke clears this gauntlet, then.


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## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2010)

The summaries are done by the same translator doing the novel.

I was just clearing how the books worked, any attempt to mind rape her would trigger the 10300 books, bedsides her 4 layers of protection.

Now my question is how fast is luke teleport and whats the range of it?

Without concrete prove of Aiwass true power and the angels just playing around so far, we really dont have any information to backup, the 4 moves I know angels can use to take down luke... posible 5 with the antimatter attacks are useless unless any prove they can resist the mind rape (the can ignore the 10300 grimmores but I dunno how good is that compared to starwars mind rape).


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## Fang (Jul 26, 2010)

> The idea that a hundred-square kilometer area of the planet could have been razed and rebuilt to hide a Super Star Destroyer seemed beyond belief, especially with no one noticing the ship's insertion into the hole. Could the Emperor's power through the dark side of the Force have been sufficient to compel thousands or millions of people to forget having seen the Lusankya being buried?
> 
> As hideous as that idea seemed, Wedge hoped it was the truth. The likely alternative--that the Emperor had ordered the deaths of all the witnesses--seemed that much more horrible.



This is low end, the size and dimension of a Super-Star Destroyer would be limited to under 12 kilometers here, when their at least specifically stated to be 17.5 to 20 kilometers in length and seven or eight kilometers wide.



			
				Krypto's Trap said:
			
		

> With the prow stabbing up into the sky, the Lusankya's thrusters ignited. Searing blue plasma vaporized huge chunks of cityscape beneath the ship's aft end. The destroyer began to move forward and upward out of the column of smoke that marked its birth. A ship that boasts a crew of over a quarter of a million individuals must have killed ten times that many lifting off.



So given the population density and size of Coruscant, a super massively scaled eucempolis, Palpatine at least mind-fucked billions at minimum. And that's not even covering his DE feat with Byss.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> So it's pretty much sure Luke clears this gauntlet, then.



No. 

He stops at gabriel at best. 



@ TWF, I'll reply to you tomorrow, I'm too tired to write a TLDR post at the moment.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> No.
> 
> He stops at gabriel at best.



Prove it. Your arguments have been demolished and most of them rely on material that isn't even translated.

Luke clears it.


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## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2010)

So far Gabrield feats are translated, he lives on another dimension, solar system reality warping (his mere presence does a silver chariot requiem like effect).

Have 3 spells to destroy a planet.


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## 11wongjk2 (Jul 26, 2010)

@TWF and endless mike

I recall Luke having resistance to mindrape. can you confirm that?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

The Celestials had to rearrange multiple stars and create an entire sector full of black holes to contain Abeloth, Luke beat her.


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## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2010)

And for what I gather he defeat a weaken version of her with a lightsaber so... either she has the durability to take on star system... or a lightsaber does more damage than a supernova basically.


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## Fang (Jul 26, 2010)

Luke has resisted being mind and spirit fucked by both Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn, C'boath's clone, Exar Kun, and UnuThul.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2010)

It does if it's wielded by Luke


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 26, 2010)

TWF said:


> Cronal/Blackhole/Shadowspawn



and Cronal placed Luke in a mental plane of entropy that's designed to break someone's mind 

it's a place of complete nothingness and is basically what the end of the universe would look like

Luke resisted that and fought on 



Xelloss said:


> And for what I gather he defeat a weaken version of her with a lightsaber so... either she has the durability to take on star system... or a lightsaber does more damage than a supernova basically.





Endless Mike said:


> It does if it's wielded by Luke


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## Fang (Jul 26, 2010)

Xelloss: The Celestials have created black holes, stars, planets, star and star system busting weapons and multiple other super weapons ranging from planetary to star system threats. 

They feared Abeloth. And the fact of the matter is Abeloth isn't really dead either way. And Fate of the Jedi still has another three or four books left to come out.


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## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2010)

I am aware she is not dead, but I consider a incosistence that it need a large prision like that to be contained and was beaten by a lightsaber.


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## Fang (Jul 26, 2010)

Her psychic presence and influence was only mitigated and diluated, not even contained, by Sinkhole and Centerpoint stations and two black holes while being placed in the equivalent of the void of the galaxy at the Maw system.


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## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2010)

Still you have to admit such a entity been defead like that... is... well PiS or at least it sounds to me like PiS maybe if I follow the novel it would more clear.


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## Fang (Jul 26, 2010)

She wasn't really defeated since it seems like the only thing Luke did was kill a physical avatar of herself. It took her decades, if not centuries or longer to draw a Force-Users to her over the years and influence them to visit her psychic realm in the Force and use entropy and draining to slowly regain strength.

By the point that Luke visited her, his power was a great enough influence and catalyst to her that at the end of Abyss, she destroyed Sinkhole Station after she was draining Luke who had spent months in her realm via time dilation.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 27, 2010)

1) i can read chinese greed so post me teh links but it has to be in traditional chinese not simplified (im taiwanese, where we learn trad, not the shit that is simplified chinese)

2) considering the fact that i used a value for accelerator's calc that was under HALF the scientifically accepted value for the rotational kinetic energy of the earth and still got a number around 10^26 or 27 (cant remember, look in the metathread i made for it) i hardly think i went for a uber high end value....

3) i still dont see how luke is going to survive gabriel teleporting a sun at him.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> 1) i can read chinese greed so post me teh links but it has to be in traditional chinese not simplified (im taiwanese, where we learn trad, not the shit that is simplified chinese)



I'm going to have to do some searching. I have no idea how I foun the links the first time. Ill ask around on animesuki and the like though.



> 2) considering the fact that i used a value for accelerator's calc that was under HALF the scientifically accepted value for the rotational kinetic energy of the earth and still got a number around 10^26 or 27 (cant remember, look in the metathread i made for it) i hardly think i went for a uber high end value....



Which is why I thought it was a fair calc. You only used have of the value of the first calc.



> 3) i still dont see how luke is going to survive gabriel teleporting a sun at him.


Neither do I. Though assuming this is the hyperbolic time chamber, gabriel would lose like half of his powerset. He can't use his soul fucking nor can he drop the sun on him.


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## Fang (Jul 27, 2010)

Hi, Luke can teleport stuff too.


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## Zaru (Jul 27, 2010)

I am randomly popping in here without knowing much about any of those characters, but



TWF said:


> Hi, Luke can teleport stuff too.



So can Narutoverse characters.

He was talking about sun sized objects.


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## Fang (Jul 27, 2010)

Worthless since Luke has precog and superior speed and takes away his mind.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

TWF said:


> Worthless since Luke has precog and superior speed and takes away his mind.



Or Aiwass knocks him unconscious just by existing. How is luke going to the away the mind of something that doesn't have a mind. Aiwass is hollow.



Endless Mike said:


> So what? Luke can attack in hyperspace, which is another dimension.


Then index's strongest defense may be worthless. Mindrape would likely still be useless against her though. But if he is lightspeed he can likely beat her if he gets past her destroyed time and space barrier.



> Luke can affect billions or trillions of minds at once, one mind has way more information capacity than any book.



Index has 103,000 books in her mind, a single line from the Grimores can make a person into a vegetable.



> Luffy has resistance to electricity. Does that mean he could survive a blast from Thor?
> 
> 
> Higher range and ability to influence more people = more power.
> ...



After I read responses to the mind rape thread in the meta, I'll concede to this point.



> Concession accepted.



I can provide summaries for the feats made by the person who translates the novel. I can't provide quotes since that is impossible.


> Reborn Palpatine could soulfuck people and Luke beat him.



How would Luke fare against Silver Chariot requiem? Because that is basically what Gabriel does just by existing.


> Luke anticipates it with precog and teleports away.



How far can he teleport?





> Good thing Luke can attack across dimensions, then.


Has he ever been shown to find and attack something which lies in another dimension? How would he know where Gabriel's true body is located? 

Scans/translation or quotes from he novel of him doing something like that?



> He's never taken mindrape on a galactic scale.


He doesn't even have a mind, his true body is a core.




> That has nothing to do with whether he can be mindraped or not.


It's a logical assumption that he could defend against something like that, considering he can live after getting wiped out of existence(including whatever he thinks with) and come back, still thinking as soundly as ever. And read above, he doesn't even have a mind(or at least not a true brain). His true body is a core.


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## Fang (Jul 27, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Or Aiwass knocks him unconscious just by existing. How is luke going to the away the mind of something that doesn't have a mind. Aiwass is hollow.



How does Aiwass think? And I was talking about Gabriel.



> Then index's strongest defense may be worthless. Mindrape would likely still be useless against her though. But if he is lightspeed he can likely beat her if he gets past her destroyed time and space barrier.



Fold-Space.

Also again the burden of proof is on you to show that telepaths that completely surpass on anyone in To-ARU by magnitudes equivalent to comparing the disparity in firepower like Freeza vs the Death Star that they stand a chance in hell of not being mind-fucked.



> Index has 103,000 books in her mind, a single line from the Grimores can make a person into a vegetable.



So what?



> How would Luke fare against Silver Chariot requiem? Because that is basically what Gabriel does just by existing.



Luke has resisted planetary surpassing mind-fucks and even a MUCH weaker version of himself decades earlier in EU could resist astral entropy and destruction.



> Has he ever been shown to find and attack something which lies in another dimension? How would he know where Gabriel's true body is located?



He's mind-fucked people in other dimensions. And once again Shatterpoints allows him not only a more suped up and amped version of regular precognition and prescience but also tells him how to forecast Fate itself. It will tell him what Gabriel's weaknesses are, how to affect him, what his powers are, and what to do to win, instantly.

And most importantly it will allow him to follow the line in his path to see how he can find Gabriel's Shatterpoint to beat him.



> He doesn't even have a mind, his true body is a core.



How does he think, act, or feel then? And what's stopping Luke from using Fold-Space in conjunction with Shatterpoints to teleport his Core into a star or black hole?



> *It's a logical assumption that he could defend against something like that.* and read above, he doesn't even have a mind. His true body is a core.



No, it isn't.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

TWF said:


> How does Aiwass think? And I was talking about Gabriel.



His core is his true body. He doesn't exist like a human. He doesn't have a mind like a human does, he just has several functions programmed into his core. Gabriel is the same way, but if his core is destroyed he dies.



> Fold-Space.
> 
> Also again the burden of proof is on you to show that telepaths that completely surpass on anyone in To-ARU by magnitudes equivalent to comparing the disparity in firepower like Freeza vs the Death Star that they stand a chance in hell of not being mind-fucked.






> So what?



I'm saying that is trillions of lines in the books which each would mind fuck a person. 




> Luke has resisted planetary surpassing mind-fucks and even a MUCH weaker version of himself decades earlier in EU could resist astral entropy and destruction.


I wasn't saying that anyone was going to mind fuck luke. I already know that is likely impossible.




> He's mind-fucked people in other dimensions. And once again Shatterpoints allows him not only a more suped up and amped version of regular precognition and prescience but also tells him how to forecast Fate itself. It will tell him what Gabriel's weaknesses are, how to affect him, what his powers are, and what to do to win, instantly.
> 
> And most importantly it will allow him to follow the line in his path to see how he can find Gabriel's Shatterpoint to beat him.



Then if he can actually manage to find his core and destroy it he could win.




> How does he think, act, or feel then? And what's stopping Luke from using Fold-Space in conjunction with Shatterpoints to teleport his Core into a star or black hole?



Those are all likely functions programmed into his core.  isn't his true body, it's hollow just like the other angels. He is just a core.....Ill try and find a picture of a core to show you what I'm talking about.

Even if his core were teleported into the sun he would regenerate. Which is why I said he has mid-godly regeneration. His core, which is his existence itself, can be wiped out of existence, and he will still live.




> No, it isn't.


....Fair enough.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 27, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Or Aiwass knocks him unconscious just by existing. How is luke going to the away the mind of something that doesn't have a mind. Aiwass is hollow.



If it can think, it has a mind.



> Then index's strongest defense may be worthless. Mindrape would likely still be useless against her though. But if he is lightspeed he can likely beat her if he gets past her destroyed time and space barrier.



He can just TK crush or mindrape her from inside.



> Index has 103,000 books in her mind, a single line from the Grimores can make a person into a vegetable.



So what? It all gets filtered away as Luke finds it's useless.



> I can provide summaries for the feats made by the person who translates the novel. I can't provide quotes since that is impossible.



Again, Concession Accepted.



> Has he ever been shown to find and attack something which lies in another dimension? How would he know where Gabriel's true body is located?



Yes, he's tracked and mindraped people on ships in hyperspace. He would know because of Shatterpoints, The Force would tell him exactly where it is and what do do. Even Obi-Wan did this in the ROTS novelization when he fought Grievous, The Force told him exactly what he had to do to win.



> Scans/translation or quotes from he novel of him doing something like that?







> He doesn't even have a mind, his true body is a core.



If he can think, he has a mind. Luke beat Exar Kun, who had no physical body and was just a Force Spirit, but he still had a mind that could be affected.



> It's a logical assumption that he could defend against something like that, considering he can live after getting wiped out of existence(including whatever he thinks with) and come back, still thinking as soundly as ever. And read above, he doesn't even have a mind(or at least not a true brain). His true body is a core.



Which, again, means nothing and is a poor jump in reasoning. He won't get wiped out, just incapacitated into a drooling vegetable.


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## zenieth (Jul 27, 2010)

Is there proof Gabriel is SCR level in soul fuckery?


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

@ EM, If you aren't going to accept summeries from the translator of the series, or chinese translations, or the mostly canon anime and manga, then I have no way to prove anything to you. You want something that doesn't exist, and I can't provide that.



zenieth said:


> Is there proof Gabriel is SCR level in soul fuckery?



Yes, He made every human on earth switch bodies with one another. Children were police officers. teachers were news reporters. The only difference between Gabriel's soul fuckery and SCR's is that people who were effected by SCR are aware of it, and I believe that SCR has a time limit, while Gabriel's soul fuckery doesn't.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 27, 2010)

Luke let the force tell him what to do in the original trilogy as well.


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## zenieth (Jul 27, 2010)

SCR doesn't have a time limit for soul fucking. Those who get soul fucked are knocked out for 8 hours.


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## Fang (Jul 27, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Yes, He made every human on earth switch bodies with one another. Children were police officers. teachers were news reporters. The only difference between Gabriel's soul fuckery and SCR's is that people who were effected by SCR are aware of it, and I believe that SCR has a time limit, while Gabriel's soul fuckery doesn't.





Silver Chariot Requiem affected not only all the people on the planet but also *all living organisms* while simultaneously accelerating evolution in mere moments billions of years on the Earth  ahead of time and after everyone was hypnotized by it.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Luke let the force tell him what to do in the original trilogy as well.



That was more or less some precognition and clairvoyance. Shatterpoints is like this:

"This guy's weakness is a little gem at the base of his neck. Shatter it with telekinesis, then dodge backwards with a Force leap from his return attack by his left arm and leg, and all the events will collapse involving this man's fate as a fault line for future events."


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## Xelloss (Jul 27, 2010)

Correct me if I wrong but shatter points can disappear and are not always there and the books would at least hinder luke


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 27, 2010)

zenieth said:


> SCR doesn't have a time limit for soul fucking. Those who get soul fucked are knocked out for 8 hours.



Oh, I see, I misunderstood then. I thought it only worked for 8 hours.



TWF said:


> Silver Chariot Requiem affected not only all the people on the planet but also *all living organisms* while simultaneously accelerating evolution in mere moments billions of years on the Earth  ahead of time and after everyone was hypnotized by it.




Yea, Gabriel didn't do that. It was only shown to work on human based organisms, and It only makes everyone switch bodies.


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## Fang (Jul 27, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Correct me if I wrong but shatter points can disappear and are not always there and the books would at least hinder luke



Shatterpoints specifically only change if the focus of fate or destiny on said target is shifted significantly. 

Obvious example from the RoTS novelization by Stover: Windu originally was forecasted by his Shatterpoints that killing or capturing Dooku would end the Clone Wars completely if he got to him during the Jedi strike team's attack on Genosis, stopping the Shroud of Darkness that was disabling long-range precognition from the Jedi Order and ruin the Separtists war efforts permanently.

However near the end when Windu is confronted with both Anakin Skywalker and Sidious, the Shatterpoints linked Obi-Wan's, Anakin's, and the Emperor's fault lines in fate and the destiny together, in a single axiom that could shift either way the balance of everything.

So they don't disappear.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 28, 2010)

ive read the shatterpoint novel with windu from my school library (yay)

and shatterpoint isnt 100% foolproof, windu failed to see his own shatterpoint and thus was killed.

Plus how long is LUke's TP range? can he teleport distances larger than a sun? (im assuming since BFR is a viable tactic even in hyperbolic time chamber, teleporting shit into it is also viable.)

And also, how quickly can luke mindrape someone who at the very least is mid/high tier jedi level in mind power (gabriel is >>>>>>> index who as greed has mentioned before, isnt exactly a slacker in the mind department. I dont get why we are trying to talk about aiwass, he is far above gabriel, who btw is a she in index).

Gabriel moved the sun to a different position in the solar system AND switched everyone on earth around the instant she was summoned. Unless you have undeniable proof that luke can 1) teleport longer distance than the radius of a sun 2) mind rape a mid-high tier jedi level opponent instantaneously 3) tank being in the core of a sun (lol) he will stop at gabriel


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 28, 2010)

Just for the record Windu lost because he failed to see the shatterpoint of Anakin, he was too busy with Sidious's. Anakin was the shatterpoint of Sidious and the Dark side, the reason he beat Sidious was because of the Emperor's trust in Anakin. Anakin's shatterpoint(Padme) was what Windu did not focus on for reasons already obvious and explained. For this battle there's like only one person per fight. Shatterpoints are not instant win but yes they do help. I'm not commenting on who wins.


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## Fang (Jul 28, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> ive read the shatterpoint novel with windu from my school library (yay)
> 
> and shatterpoint isnt 100% foolproof, windu failed to see his own shatterpoint and thus was killed.



Wrong. He didn't pay attention to Anakin's until right before his death since he was completely focused on Sidious's affecting the destiny of the galaxy.



> Plus how long is LUke's TP range? can he teleport distances larger than a sun? (im assuming since BFR is a viable tactic even in hyperbolic time chamber, teleporting shit into it is also viable.)



It would make sense that objects and things Luke can percieve or sense can be affected by his Fold-Space/teleport technique. He can TK stuff hundreds to thousands of kilometers when he was tossing Shadow Bombs at Vong warships, and his telepathy is galactic in range.



> And also, how quickly can luke mindrape someone who at the very least is mid/high tier jedi level in mind power (gabriel is >>>>>>> index who as greed has mentioned before, isnt exactly a slacker in the mind department. I dont get why we are trying to talk about aiwass, he is far above gabriel, who btw is a she in index).



A bloodlusted Luke would put a telepathic mental spike pretty easily and quickly, he doesn't need prep for it. And he casually does so subconsciously with his blanket broadcasting of his illusions before he learned the White Current techniques.



> Gabriel moved the sun to a different position in the solar system AND switched everyone on earth around the instant she was summoned. Unless you have undeniable proof that luke can 1) teleport longer distance than the radius of a sun 2) mind rape a mid-high tier jedi level opponent instantaneously 3) tank being in the core of a sun (lol) he will stop at gabriel



1.) Its fair to again assume he can use Fold-Space in the same way that he can use his telepathy or telekinesis in range or sensory.
2.) He can instantaneously crush Gabriel's mind or whatever makes it up, he did so UnuThul who can control billions
3.) Irreverent since Luke isn't getting teleported thanks to Precognition and Shatterpoints


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## MisterShin (Jul 28, 2010)

I would still like to know who Luke beats Vent with Divine Punishment. 
The moment he thinks to use mind rape on her, he is KO. 

Also index beats Luke, she is tears space and time around her (she is outside time and space), she can use ars magna  which attacks at the speed of thought. Unless Luke has mind rape a being that lies outside time and space, then mind rape is useless against index because it will never reach Index. 
Also anybody that attempts to read index mind cannot 
1) because she has perfect memory of everything, it will take a long time for it to work, and the person can never steal all the information in her mind because it is just so much volume. 
2) she has over 100,000 grimories in her mind that will shut down peoples minds.  
3) When index lies outside of space and time, she is unreachable outside of space and time, which means no mind rape. 

Being outside of space and time is NOT the same as being in a different time or in a different dimension. 

I think Greed and others already pointed out why index cannot be mind rape.


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## Fang (Jul 28, 2010)

Luke is capable of projecting his mind outside of the barrier between baryonic matter and tachyonic dimensions.

So no.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 28, 2010)

TWF said:


> Luke is capable of projecting his mind outside of the barrier between baryonic matter and tachyonic dimensions.
> 
> So no.



Care to explain what that is?

Also, Couldn't Index also just use ars mangna on him at the beginning of the match to kill him? 


I mean all she has to do is think about him being dead and he will die. Ars magna is just flat out reality warping.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 28, 2010)

Is it really that or are you like usual misusing terms?Strongest being this ability has worked on. It's not going to work on characters who can keep existing after losing their bodies or is there more to this ability?


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## Fang (Jul 28, 2010)

The barrier between matter and energy/time, and others including myself have already citied that Luke has used his telepathy in hyperspace, which is completely independent to the 4 dimensions.

And yeah it might kill him, but its pointless to bring it up since Luke would end Index with telepathy.

And Luke has shown complete control of his soul/spirit to the point of manifesting himself astrally after death over a century later in the LoTF comics to Cade Skywalker.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 28, 2010)

TWF said:


> The barrier between matter and energy/time, and others including myself have already citied that Luke has used his telepathy in hyperspace, which is completely independent to the 4 dimensions.


Was this comment directed towards me?



> And yeah it might kill him, but its pointless to bring it up since Luke would end Index with telepathy.


Not if index kills him with ars manga before that. It's a thought speed attack that doesn't really take any time. How long does it take Luke to mind rape someone? Has Luke been shown to mind rape things like computer programs, because that is what Index's programmed mind is closest to. 



> And Luke has shown complete control of his soul/spirit to the point of manifesting himself astrally after death over a century later in the LoTF comics to Cade Skywalker.


That isn't really helping defend against ars magna. Ars magna has wiped out conceptual things before.


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## Fang (Jul 28, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Was this comment directed towards me?



No, it was to MisterShin.



> Not if index kills him with ars manga before that. It's a thought speed attacthat doesn't really take any time. How long does it take Luke to mind rape someone? Has Luke been shown to mind rape things like computer programs, because that is what Index's programmed mind is closest to.



He can do it pretty much instantaneously, this is a gauntlet fight thread remember? It's even easier when he's fighting only a few or a single individual as well. 

And yes, Force-Users, weaker ones using illusions or projective telepathy have fooled electronic sensors, scanners, and systems of entire fleets.

And I'm pretty certain Luke isn't going to lose in a race over who can activate a mental command or attack first.



> That isn't really helping defend against ars magna. Ars magna has wiped out conceptual things before.



And I severely doubt Ars Manga is going to wipe out the Force since a Force-User  merges into the Unifying Force after death.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 28, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Is it really that or are you like usual misusing terms?Strongest being this ability has worked on. It's not going to work on characters who can keep existing after losing their bodies or is there more to this ability?



Actually, yes, Ars Magna does work like that. It works based on your imagination. You say this person dies, they die. Or if I want a gun with fully loaded ammo and then some, it happens. Or if I want to lift someone in the air and rip the skin off their body, it happens.

Aureolus Izzard uses it and Index is surperior to him.

Link removed



> - Ars Magna: This allows him to think of anything and make it into reality, however he requires great concentration for it to properly work or else it may cause considerable unwanted effects, because of this he uses needles to stab himself with in the neck as to allow him to concentrate. It has been stated in the Light Novel the needles he uses are acupuncture needles. He was also said to be a Magic author capable of writing original grimoires.
> 
> - Be Torn to Pieces: This spell rips his opponent to shreds.
> 
> ...


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## Fang (Jul 28, 2010)

How is that going to make a difference against Luke?


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## Xelloss (Jul 28, 2010)

Arts magna is basically reality warping


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## Kurou (Jul 28, 2010)

Since when is Ars Magna thought speed? Aureolus actually had to say it out loud before it happened.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 28, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> Since when is Ars Magna thought speed? Aureolus actually had to say it out loud before it happened.



Index has it as well though.


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## Xelloss (Jul 28, 2010)

Incorrect he has to think for it to happen he said to reafirm his conviction thetas why the dragón arm materialize without saiying a word


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## Kurou (Jul 28, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Index has it as well though.



I know this. The point?



Xelloss said:


> Incorrect he has to think for it to happen he said to reafirm his conviction thetas why the drag?n arm materialize without saiying a word



Then what about the whole poking himself in the neck?


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## Xelloss (Jul 28, 2010)

To clear his mind args magna need lots of concentration


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## Kurou (Jul 28, 2010)

So He pokes himself in the neck because of that?


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## Fang (Jul 28, 2010)

So uh, how about those other angels.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 29, 2010)

TWF said:


> How is that going to make a difference against Luke?



I'm pretty sure making him fade out of existance through using ars magna would kill him.



KurouKetsu said:


> Since when is Ars Magna thought speed? Aureolus actually had to say it out loud before it happened.


That was only to reaffirm his convictions. Hence why the dragon arm appeared on Touma with out him saying anything. Index does not have this limitation since she is basically a computer program with no unnessary thoughts or emotions.



KurouKetsu said:


> Then what about the whole poking himself in the neck?



That was only to clear his mind of unnessessary thoughts. Again, Index does not have this limitation since she is basically a computer program with no unnessary thoughts or emotions. She can simply think about something fading out of existance and that is what would happen.


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## Dante Alighieri (Jul 29, 2010)

How fast can he use Ars Magna? Faster than Luke can kill/mindrape him?


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## Xelloss (Jul 29, 2010)

Aureolus no, Index posible if her defenses hold long enough.


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## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> I'm pretty sure making him fade out of existance through using ars magna would kill him.



Your right, it will. That again doesn't matter since Luke would instantaneously use his telepathy off the bat.


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## pikachuwei (Jul 29, 2010)

TWF said:


> It would make sense that objects and things Luke can percieve or sense can be affected by his Fold-Space/teleport technique. He can TK stuff hundreds to thousands of kilometers when he was tossing Shadow Bombs at Vong warships, and his telepathy is galactic in range.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



but how big a object can luke teleport? Hundreds to thousands of miles isnt gonna help him escape from a star.

and your getting it wrong in the bolded part. Gabriel isnt going to teleport luke into the sun. She's going to teleport the sun into luke.

and also, gabriel is one of the 4 christian archangels in toaru verse, and as such is massively above every other character in the series (barring perhaps FUZE and aiwass) her mental defenses are as expected far above that of Index. Seeing as we have not had definite proof of how fast luke can mindrape people (or if he can even mindrape beings from a higher dimension of gabriel's caliber) i think gabriel will be able to teleport the sun into him quicker htan he can mind rape her.


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## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

Bullshit, your repeating yourself with debunked arguments now since you have nothing, absolutely nothing to disprove anything on Luke's telepathic scale or power for anyone in To-ARU to compare to. 

End of the Dark Nest Trilogy/Swarm War, Luke crushed UnuThul in a mental battle right off  from the start in their last confrontation then the latter tried to use TK on him and failed.

Luke has already used his telepathy outside of and beyond 4-dimensions, so again your argument is just a concession. Secondly, I already explained using it on one person is absolutely nothing for him.

He will do it to Gabriel in a femtosecond.


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## Shock Therapy (Jul 29, 2010)

A serious Luke is not someone you want to be fucking around with.


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## Xelloss (Jul 29, 2010)

TWF said:


> Bullshit, your repeating yourself with debunked arguments now since you have nothing, absolutely nothing to disprove anything on Luke's telepathic scale or power for anyone in To-ARU to compare to.
> 
> End of the Dark Nest Trilogy/Swarm War, Luke crushed UnuThul in a mental battle right off  from the start in their last confrontation then the latter tried to use TK on him and failed.
> 
> ...



My only question is how would Luke deal with the body exchange from Gabriel presence


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## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

Reborn Palpatine could soul fuck and swap bodies. Luke a few years after Dark Empire showed his mastery over the Force to having be able to fully control and manipulate his astral self in the event he should die like when he was captured by his corrupted student Keuller


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 29, 2010)

I have a few questions that I'm hoping someone could answer.

The first is, would mind fuck work on Kazakiri since technically she doesn't have an actual brain. When she was attacked and part of her skull was cracked open it showed that she was completely hollow inside. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of mindfuck, or would it still work regardless?

The second is, would mindfuck work on Aiwass? Technically his physical body isn't really his is it? It's just something it made to be able to exist in the human realm. His real self is in another dimension.

Which brings my third question. Could luke find the dimension the angels are in? Luke should be able to mind rape across dimensions I believe, but wouldn't he need to know where the dimension is? Or does the force automatically tell him where it is?

Just a few questions I'm hoping someone could answer.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 29, 2010)

KumogakureRaikage said:


> The first is, would mind fuck work on Kazakiri since technically she doesn't have an actual brain. When she was attacked and part of her skull was cracked open it showed that she was completely hollow inside. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of mindfuck, or would it still work regardless?



Luke can mindfuck sentient crystal beings

actual brain not needed for his telepathy antics


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 29, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Luke can mindfuck sentient crystal beings
> 
> actual brain not needed for his telepathy antics



Ooooh I see. Thanks for the info.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 29, 2010)

TWF said:


> Your right, it will. That again doesn't matter since Luke would instantaneously use his telepathy off the bat.



And index can think about killing him right off the bat. 



Dante Alighieri said:


> How fast can he use Ars Magna? Faster than Luke can kill/mindrape him?



It is thought speed. As soon as Index sees luke she can kill him.


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## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

Which doesn't matter since she'll never get a chance to do so. 

Unless you want to prove her thought speed is anywhere equivalent to Luke's?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 29, 2010)

this talk of thought speed is hilarious, considering bottom-of-the-barrel Jedi have deflected high-speed shrapnel before


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 29, 2010)

TWF said:


> Which doesn't matter since she'll never get a chance to do so.
> 
> Unless you want to prove her thought speed is anywhere equivalent to Luke's?



What is the fastest luke has mind raped someone with a brain equivalent to Index's? Because all Index has to do here is think about him dying or something else harmful.

He is going to have to mind rape 103,000 books here. Actually, has Luke ever mind raped something equivalent to a  book or library? Because that is all index is, she is just a living library, with a computer program set to run the books. He is also going to have to break through all the defense systems and not get mind raped by the books themselves for trying to break into her head.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 29, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> What is the fastest luke has mind raped someone with a brain equivalent to Index's? Because all Index has to do here is think about him dying or something else harmful.
> 
> He is going to have to mind rape 103,000 books here. Actually, has Luke ever mind raped something equivalent to a  book or library? Because that is all index is, she is just a living library, with a computer program set to run the books. He is also going to have to break through all the defense systems and not get mind raped by the books themselves for trying to break into her head.



Backed up by Ars Magna, she can say "mental suggestion/infiltration/etc. have no effect on me" and reality changes to meet those standards. 

Considering Ars Magna is a freakin no-limits ability...


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## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> What is the fastest luke has mind raped someone with a brain equivalent to Index's? Because all Index has to do here is think about him dying or something else harmful.



This is again...irreverent since Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in the RoTS novelization (g-canon material to boot) had the Force increase their reflexes and thought processes to surpass that of the electrical powered synapses and lightspeed processing of the computer chips in Grievous's built-in cyborg mind. 



> He is going to have to mind rape 103,000 books here. Actually, has Luke ever mind raped something equivalent to a  book or library? Because that is all index is, she is just a living library, with a computer program set to run the books. He is also going to have to break through all the defense systems and not get mind raped by the books themselves for trying to break into her head.



He's going to telepathically break her mental hymen in a femto second or even less. Her mental defenses are going to get shredded like they are wet bags of paper kibble and bits.

The knowledge, psychic/magic, whatever information she has assimilated isn't going to do anything against him. And I severely doubt someone who hasn't gone against Luke's caliber of telepathy and mental or even anyone close to that level is going to be able to mentally shrug it off and will an attack while suffering from a guro version of a mental sodomy on her entire psyche.


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 29, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Backed up by Ars Magna, she can say "mental suggestion/infiltration/etc. have no effect on me" and reality changes to meet those standards.
> 
> Considering Ars Magna is a freakin no-limits ability...



Give Index prep against any of her opponents and she'd just use Ars Magna then to nullify any chance they have of winning.


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## Xelloss (Jul 29, 2010)

The point of johan pen mode index is In case something damage her brain she would boot on this mode and if I recall it took obi time to get to that speed


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## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

It took time for Obi-Wan and Anakin to do what exactly?


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 29, 2010)

Xelloss. Do Index's grimmoire's function as separate minds or something? I'm confused as to how it all works.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 29, 2010)

@ TWF, Ill reply tomorrow, since I'm at work and don't have time to write a long TLDR post. 



KumogakureRaikage said:


> Xelloss. Do Index's grimmoire's function as separate minds or something? I'm confused as to how it all works.



Basically yes. Each of Index's Grimores have a mind of their own. They are living books.


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## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

I've been doing this all day at work.


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## Xelloss (Jul 29, 2010)

TWF said:


> I've been doing this all day at work.



I am at work in a hacked network on a iPhone so ... Envy


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## Black Sabbath II (Jul 29, 2010)

So would luke know he'd have to mindrape her for every book in her head? Or could he just mindrape them all at once? It could be he'd mindrape her once and then she'd Ars Magna him. That is if he can only mind rape her one book at a time and if he even knows he has to mind rape her for every book.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 29, 2010)

TWF said:


> This is again...irreverent since Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in the RoTS novelization (g-canon material to boot) had the Force increase their reflexes and thought processes to surpass that of the electrical powered synapses and lightspeed processing of the computer chips in Grievous's built-in cyborg mind.



I don't see what that has to do with being able to mind rape books......


> He's going to telepathically break her mental hymen in a femto second or even less. Her mental defenses are going to get shredded like they are wet bags of paper kibble and bits.



Proof that he can mindrape in a femtosecond?

And again, she is basically a computer program. Her body also automatically restores the books. The only time that wasn't possible was when Touma used IB to destroy her Johns pen mode itself.



> The knowledge, psychic/magic, whatever information she has assimilated isn't going to do anything against him.


Has he shown resistance to having his mind destroyed?



> And I severely doubt someone who hasn't gone against Luke's caliber of telepathy and mental or even anyone close to that level is going to be able to mentally shrug it off and will an attack while suffering from a guro version of a mental sodomy on her entire psyche.



What do you not get about her being a living library? Forcing visions into her head also won't work since books do not know fear. In johns pen mode, her brain is simply a living book working through the use of the books own self defense programs and something similar to a computer program .

Grimores can also not be destroyed, and that has been stated several times in the story.

I can probably actually find a translation from the novels for that.




Xelloss said:


> I am at work in a hacked network on a iPhone so ... Envy



I'm at work with my normal computer, but I work in a candy store and small children keep coming in to annoy the shit out of me, so it takes me forever to write even one small message.




KumogakureRaikage said:


> So would luke know he'd have to mindrape her for every book in her head? Or could he just mindrape them all at once? It could be he'd mindrape her once and then she'd Ars Magna him. That is if he can only mind rape her one book at a time and if he even knows he has to mind rape her for every book.



He would have to be able to mindrape books in the first place.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 29, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Has he shown resistance to having his mind destroyed?



oh please, Vader can destroy minds and he's shit compared to Luke at this point

any telepath in SW worth his salt has resistance to mental destruction unless this Index is different in mental assaults 



> What do you not get about her being a living library? Forcing visions into her head also won't work since books do not know fear. In johns pen mode, her brain is simply a living book working through the use of something similar to a computer program.



Gets into her mind and rewrites it?  Considering Palpatine altered the memories of millions at _low-end_, and we're not talking about his stronger Dark Empire version, whom Luke already defeated.


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## Kurou (Jul 29, 2010)

You know just because she has memorized the books doesn't mean he actually has to mind rape the books.


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## Xelloss (Jul 29, 2010)

The books act on their own to defend her


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 29, 2010)

And nobody has mentioned how is Luke gonna work around Ars Magna. Again, she could have it that "mental suggestion/intrusion/etc. has no effect on me" and it happens.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 29, 2010)

Out of curiosity, how the hell does Luke stay on even ground with characters like Aiwass, Gabriel, Kazakiri and demon god index if he can only freaking tie with the FCK, who is around Accelerator's level at best.

Seems people are just wanking Luke unless he got a major power up since 7 months ago.




Crimson Dragoon said:


> oh please, Vader can destroy minds and he's shit compared to Luke at this point
> 
> any telepath in SW worth his salt has resistance to mental destruction unless this Index is different in mental assaults


So he can defend against mental attacks then? Scans quotes or some other type of proof.



> Gets into her mind and rewrites it?  Considering Palpatine altered the memories of millions at _low-end_, and we're not talking about his stronger Dark Empire version, whom Luke already defeated.



Certain measures have to be taken in order to rewrite Grimores. If it were that simple index wouldn't have been needed by the church.

I'm going to look for a translation for that now, since I actually know a explanation for this was given in volume 9 or 10. 



KurouKetsu said:


> You know just because she has memorized the books doesn't mean he actually has to mind rape the books.



Actually, yes they do.  Index is no longer herself when in johns pen mode. She is simply the will of the books combined with the program that Laura Staurt wrote. Each book has a mind and will of it's own.


Also, on a note unrelated to ars Magna, Index also has the spell
"Time related to life and death"

Which has the combat function of countering against any enemy that holds a weapon, having them kill themselves. This means if luke is carrying any of his combat gear, like his light saber, or his blaster pistol, he kills himself.


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## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> I don't see what that has to do with being able to mind rape books......



I don't see how it matters since as how high mid-tier Force-Users can mind-fuck or fool things outside of the organic or material boundaries.



> Proof that he can mindrape in a femtosecond?



Hi, lower Force-Users mentally dealing and reacting with the Force against turbolasers, Chiss charric guns, relativistic objects, ect...Luke is the top dog for a reason.



> And again, she is basically a computer program. Her body also automatically restores the books. The only time that wasn't possible was when Touma used IB to destroy her Johns pen mode itself.



A much weaker Force-User was mind-fucking sensors and programs of Nil Spaar's entire military naval battlegroup at the end of the Black Fleet Trilogy.

Luke is better than her.

And Force-Users have shown psychic control of electronic, mechanical, and computer technologies, its called mechu-dru.



> Has he shown resistance to having his mind destroyed?



I'm not even going to take this response seriously.



> What do you not get about her being a living library? Forcing visions into her head also won't work since books do not know fear. In johns pen mode, her brain is simply a living book working through the use of the books own self defense programs and something similar to a computer program .



He's not "forcing" (nice pun) visions into her mind, he's wiping out her congnitivity completely. Erasing, deleting, wiping, ending, ect...however you want to adjective it. 



> Grimores can also not be destroyed, and that has been stated several times in the story.



Proof?



> He would have to be able to mindrape books in the first place.



He's going to not notice them since their not going to make a lick of difference against his telepathy.



~Greed~ said:


> Out of curiosity, how the hell does Luke stay on even ground with characters like Aiwass, Gabriel, Kazakiri and demon god index if he can only freaking tie with the FCK, who is around Accelerator's level at best.



You know that has only to do with time-stopping right? And that was before Luke's power-up from the Aing-Ti's Codex (which sent all the Force-Users: several hundreds of them, from the Sith Lost Tribe, reeling ont he other end of the galaxy and his ability to teleport shit). So what's your point? 



> Seems people are just wanking Luke unless he got a major power up since 7 months ago.



Are you accusing me, CD, or EM of wanking Luke's telepathy? Especially when all three of us having playing it pretty conservative with his feats and abilities?

" Telepathy uses Telekinesis in Star Wars "
" Can Luke resist mental destruction? "

Yeah no.



> So he can defend against mental attacks then? Scans quotes or some other type of proof.



This is pathetic. Your seriously demanding for evidence on a very basic premise of Force-User fights: they have to not only fight on a physical, material level, but also on a psychic one whenever Dark Jedi/Sith/Jedi fight each other.

Luke isn't getting mind-fucked by anyone from To-ARU when it comes to telepathy.



> Certain measures have to be taken in order to rewrite Grimores. If it were that simple index wouldn't have been needed by the church.



I'm pretty sure that fades in importance when you have a psychic who can spike your brain like he can do to billions of people into nothing.



> Actually, yes they do.  Index is no longer herself when in johns pen mode. She is simply the will of the books combined with the program that Laura Staurt wrote. Each book has a mind and will of it's own.



So what, the mental capacity of a human brain > a computer, a computer > a book.



> Also, on a note unrelated to ars Magna, Index also has the spell
> "Time related to life and death"
> 
> Which has the combat function of countering against any enemy that holds a weapon, having them kill themselves. This means if luke is carrying any of his combat gear, like his light saber, or his blaster pistol, he kills himself.



And Ars Manga is going to do this how past Luke's mental shields, which are strong enough to completely thwart UnuThul's, who can dominate the minds of billions of Killicks, other Force-Users across the galaxy, create a "murkiness" in the Force, and has the collective Force power of an entire race who still got bent over by Luke.

And even if or how it would kill him doesn't matter: it would never get the chance.


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## Xelloss (Jul 29, 2010)

I recall someone saying starwars lasers are not light speed is there any other prof of jedis >> ftl

For the book

“A magic book cannot be burned. Especially for the special class of original magic books, the words, paragraphs, chapters will be converted into a magical code, using small amounts of energy released by nature or lifeforce as its power, like an automatically powered magic spell. So the most we can do is to seal it.” 

“Do you know what kind of thing is an original magic book? Do you know that one can’t destroy an original through any means?”

“Um. I heard of this before. The reason seems to be because the words, paragraphs and chapters will form some sort of a spell array, right?”

“Yes. A ‘magic book’ is actually a blueprint. A magic book that records lightning magic is also a mechanism that creates lightning. Especially for an original-class magic book, even if it doesn’t rely on human magic, as long as there’s a little natural energy or lifeforce, the power will be magnified exponentially, creating a semi-permanent defense mechanism.

Ursula thinks for a while, and says,

“With our spells now, we can’t destroy any magic book. The most we can do is to seal it and not allow others to read it.” 

if he can only freaking tie with the FCK


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## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

Blaster's aren't FTL, lightspeed or even relativistic since EU and the rest of the franchise has jargon like 90% of other fantasty/sci-fi series with just abusing the term laser.

Turbolasers are at least lightspeed, and Chiss Charric Guns and other weapons specifically stated and proven to be maser-based weaponry. Not sure about Disruptors.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 29, 2010)

TWF said:


> And Ars Manga is going to do this how past Luke's mental shields, which are strong enough to completely thwart UnuThul's, who can dominate the minds of billions of Killicks, other Force-Users across the galaxy, create a "murkiness" in the Force, and has the collective Force power of an entire race who still got bent over by Luke.
> 
> And even if or how it would kill him doesn't matter: it would never get the chance.



Ars Magna works at thought speed but it's not a mental attack, it's reality warping. The smallest scale would be human size, such as killing the person, lifting them into the air and rip the skin off their flesh or bringing a weapon out of thin air, amplifying your abilities such as speed, teleportation, or invincibility (merely think what you want and it'll happen).

The largest scale was a whole skyscraper was being destroyed and with Ars Magna, the destruction was reversed (literally, collapsing building came back up) like nothing happened.

The only limit I can say is human limitations like knowledge. Such as Aureolus didn't know what To Aru verse Vamps looked like and such and couldn't just create one. Although Index being a library of magic books, wouldn't have that problem.


----------



## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

Dark Nest III - Swarm War pg.336 said:
			
		

> Raynar's (UnuThul) heavy presence returned, this time summoning Luke.
> 
> The Jedi Master started toward the interior exit, where the first bugcrunchers were already trying to override the decompression safety and open the hatch. He was happy to go to Raynar. Again, Luke exerted his own will through the Force, incorporating UnuThul's wishes, but turning them toward his own ends. He recalled his dinner with Aryn Thul, when she and Tyko had asked Luke to spare her son's life. It was time to stop the killing, to end this war, and the Jedi Master would glady go to Raynar to accept his surrender. UnuThul wished Luke to come, and Luke wished to end the war, and so Luke would come to accept the Colony's surrender.
> 
> Again, Raynar withdrew, this time so violently Luke had no chance to prevent it. UnuThul was coming---not to Luke, but after him.





			
				Dark Nest III - Swarm War pg.341 said:
			
		

> The pain of losing an arm might have forced a common Jedi to stop fighting, but Raynar was no common Jedi. He had the Force potential of the Colony to draw on, and he did that now, swinging his remaining hand up to hul Luke down the corridor as he had before.
> 
> But this time, Luke was ready. *He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of an immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him---not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.
> *
> ...



There's more if I need to post more on Luke's telepathy and mental power or TK.


----------



## God (Jul 29, 2010)

His durability is > super massive black hole? 

Yeah, no one here is touching him.


----------



## Fang (Jul 29, 2010)

His durability isn't a super massive black hole, the key part though is the Megador. Which is a fucking Super Star Destroyer.


----------



## Abigail (Jul 30, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> It is thought speed. As soon as Index sees luke she can kill him.



It was also mentioned you need full concentration to use it.

Kinda hard to concentrate when you're in horribly agony from having a mental spike shoved into your brain.

Also, fucking with your brain in and of itself kinda makes it hard to concentrate.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

it'll be like trying to sit down while you're getting an anal fisting 

it's impossible and you'd just wind up hurting yourself


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

Abigail said:


> It was also mentioned you need full concentration to use it.
> 
> Kinda hard to concentrate when you're in horribly agony from having a mental spike shoved into your brain.
> 
> Also, fucking with your brain in and of itself kinda makes it hard to concentrate.



Aureolus is the one who needs concentration. Although he's tied down to that BS. Index on the other hand...


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 30, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> it'll be like trying to sit down while you're getting an anal fisting
> 
> it's impossible and you'd just wind up hurting yourself



hahaha great analogy hahaha


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Index on the other hand...



Gets her mind picked apart like an attractive unconscious woman with a bunch of drunken frat boys?


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 30, 2010)

Abigail said:


> It was also mentioned you need full concentration to use it.
> 
> Kinda hard to concentrate when you're in horribly agony from having a mental spike shoved into your brain.
> 
> Also, fucking with your brain in and of itself kinda makes it hard to concentrate.



Index in johan pen mode doesnt have that drawback.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Luke doesn't need prep or concentration to deal with a single target.


----------



## Abigail (Jul 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Aureolus is the one who needs concentration. Although he's tied down to that BS. Index on the other hand...



Still dies due to near instantaneous mind rape.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> Luke doesn't need prep or concentration to deal with a single target.



A single target with 10300 minds are 4 layer mental barriers and a time space dislocation barrier. I dont think he can break all that in that instant.


----------



## Big Bοss (Jul 30, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Gets her mind picked apart like an attractive unconscious woman with a bunch of drunken frat boys?



hahahaha this analogies keep getting better hahaha.


----------



## Abigail (Jul 30, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> A single target with 10300 minds are 4 layer mental barriers and a time space dislocation barrier. I dont think he can break all that in that instant.



Except he's better then people who can mind rape billions simultaneously.

You're a couple of zeros from making a valid point.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Gets her mind picked apart like an attractive unconscious woman with a bunch of drunken frat boys?



If he could touch her at all with that whole reality warping shennanigans it does. She could make it that "mental suggestions/attacks/intrusions/etc. has no effect on me". It's not mental power that's the problem, it's getting passed that thing. Unless Luke has feats that has him resisting reality warping or outright ignoring it. If not, he can't touch him, he dies with a thought, and she can make it so that he's utterly slow and accelerate her thought process via Ars Magna.

The only reason Aureolus will get his ass kicked is the prep he needs (which would take like a few seconds actually, and it's spammable but, you'd know what will happen).


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 30, 2010)

Abigail said:


> Except he's better then people who can mind rape billions simultaneously.
> 
> You're a couple of zeros from making a valid point.



Funny I go from older quotes and fights of luke, palpatine, etc done on this same forums and those where millions on the fights you quoting, suddently on this thread there are billons to trillons.


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 30, 2010)

Wow 17 pages. I was right when I said this thread was going nowhere.


----------



## God (Jul 30, 2010)

This should be locked now.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

He did it to UnuThul, despite his own formidable mental barriers and shields and having the entire Force sensitivity of the Killicks and Joiners and the additional bonus of murking the Force and being part of a Hive-Mind.


----------



## Kurou (Jul 30, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> it'll be like trying to sit down while you're getting an anal fisting
> 
> it's impossible and you'd just wind up hurting yourself





Crimson Dragoon said:


> Gets her mind picked apart like an attractive unconscious woman with a bunch of drunken frat boys?



Instant classics.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> If he could touch her at all with that whole reality warping shennanigans it does. She could make it that "mental suggestions/attacks/intrusions/etc. has no effect on me". It's not mental power that's the problem, it's getting passed that thing. Unless Luke has feats that has him resisting reality warping or outright ignoring it. If not, he can't touch him, he dies with a thought, and she can make it so that he's utterly slow and accelerate her thought process via Ars Magna.
> 
> The only reason Aureolus will get his ass kicked is the prep he needs (which would take like a few seconds actually, and it's spammable but, you'd know what will happen).



is she quick enough to do that before Luke gives her a telepathic fisting so hard that even the creator of ToAru feels it


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Funny I go from older quotes and fights of luke, palpatine, etc done on this same forums and those where millions on the fights you quoting, suddently on this thread there are billons to trillons.



I said millions is low-end, bro


----------



## Abigail (Jul 30, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Funny I go from older quotes and fights of luke, palpatine, etc done on this same forums and those where millions on the fights you quoting, suddently on this thread there are billons to trillons.



Even if it was only millions you'd still be a few zeros from making a valid point.

Nice try dodging the point though.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Funny I go from older quotes and fights of luke, palpatine, etc done on this same forums and those where millions on the fights you quoting, suddently on this thread there are billons to trillons.



What? Nihilus did it to a bunch of worlds and planets in the Outer Rim and Unknown Regions, the millions comes specifically from the incident of Katar, where he mind-fucked "millions" of empathic/telepathic people of Miruka race (IIRC).

Palpatine was stated to wipe the minds and memories of billions (again population of Coruscant is well into several of trillions and the density of Coruscanti population index where the feat occurred was in one of the most well known area's) to hide his personal SSD.

UnuThul, already explained.



basch71 said:


> If he could touch her at all with that whole reality warping shennanigans it does. She could make it that "mental suggestions/attacks/intrusions/etc. has no effect on me". It's not mental power that's the problem, it's getting passed that thing. Unless Luke has feats that has him resisting reality warping or outright ignoring it. If not, he can't touch him, he dies with a thought, and she can make it so that he's utterly slow and accelerate her thought process via Ars Magna.
> 
> The only reason Aureolus will get his ass kicked is the prep he needs (which would take like a few seconds actually, and it's spammable but, you'd know what will happen).



She isn't Gold Experience Requiem for one. Two, reality warpers are vulnerable to telepathic attacks from powerful enough psychics, three again its a moot point she would never get a chance.

Its like comparing a guy with a machine gun standing 100 meters away from a guy with a mini-nuke launcher. One's more powerful but utterly ineffective since you know, it takes some time for latter to setup for his powerful weapon.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 30, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I said millions is low-end, bro



Again not what most of you say on other threads, this is the first that I see the billions and trillons, and does it need preparation, for the fight against the hive mind TWF put, it say it was Luke and another 3 to make the trick.

And again mind rape 1 million is impressive but people have try to deal with the books with preparation, rituals and reality warp them out of existance and is no good Anyways I dont really care if luke clear this I want this hellish thread on the trash.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

> She isn't Gold Experience Requiem for one. Two, reality warpers are vulnerable to telepathic attacks from powerful enough psychics, three again its a moot point she would never get a chance.





> - Ars Magna: A powerful form of alchemy which allows the user to think of anything and make it into reality.



Again, unless there are feats of Luke resisting Reality Warping and (or) outright ignoring it, it becomes a problem.



> Its like comparing a guy with a machine gun standing 100 meters away from a guy with a mini-nuke launcher. One's more powerful but utterly ineffective since you know, it takes some time for latter to setup for his powerful weapon.



Except if the opponent h4x themselves to invincibility with a thought and kill them on the spot,



> You can not touch me: This spell makes it so his opponent can not touch him.
> 
> Die: This spell kills his opponent.
> 
> I will come to you now: This spell allows him to teleport right in front of his opponent.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Wait what?



basch71 said:


> Again, unless there are feats of Luke resisting Reality Warping and (or) outright ignoring it, it becomes a problem.



Again proof of her being able to make this problem when her mind is lower than lifeforms in protozoan stew? 



> Accept if the opponent h4x themselves to invincibility with a thought and kill them on the spot,



EXCEPT that sounds like bullshit.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Again not what most of you say on other threads, this is the first that I see the billions and trillons, and does it need preparation, for the fight against the hive mind TWF put, it say it was Luke and another 3 to make the trick.



he was all alone in that last fight against UnuThul

guess who won


> And again mind rape 1 million is impressive but people have try to deal with the books with preparation, rituals and reality warp them out of existance and is no good Anyways I dont really care if luke clear this I want this hellish thread on the trash.



got any quotes


----------



## Abigail (Jul 30, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Again not what most of you say on other threads, this is the first that I see the billions and trillons, and does it need preparation, for the fight against the hive mind TWF put, it say it was Luke and another 3 to make the trick.
> 
> And again mind rape 1 million is impressive but people have try to deal with the books with preparation, rituals and reality warp them out of existance and is no good



Those people were obviously incompetent then.

Luke mind rapes all the books and the main mind simultaneously.


Also, lol one million.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 30, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> got any quotes



Start reading here

Oh if he was all alone then I guess he can, still does he really would take that little to bypass all her defenses I dont think even with all I have read he is that fast to deal with so much (By the way that star wars wiki is really flawed and missing a lot for what you guys have told me).

If you mean reality warping vs the book Aureolus was a sealer, even him with args magna find imposible to destroy 1 of those books.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> EXCEPT that sounds like bullshit.



Oh? The Ars Magna feats were done by Aureolus but Index on the other hand has the same ability stored in her memory which works like a computer.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElOR-H-hnSE&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

0 - :47 (Die)
3:02 - 3:18 (Suffocate)
3:25 (Die from electric shock)
3: 33 (Crush)
3:58-4:11 (Bring a pistol to my hand, even adding specifics)
4:27 (Brings in machine guns)
5:23-5:39 (lifts Styl into the air, tears his skin off)


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Why would the Star Wars Wiki being anything like the OBD Wiki? 

And he's plenty fast enough seeing as how at the end of NJO, The Unifying Force, he physically as well as psychically manifested as "luminous energies of the force, like a storm at the center of a calm eye" while making more than two dozen afterimages while casually swinging his lightsaber in front of the future Darth Caedus and Jaina Solo against the Vong Slayers.



basch71 said:


> *snip*



This is all well and good but does nothing to answer the whole " can she do it while getting mind-fucked " problem.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> If you mean reality warping vs the book Aureolus was a sealer, even him with args magna find imposible to destroy 1 of those books.



Which would back up that he lacked knowledge of HOW to do that (kinda like with the whole Vampire bit). Index would probably know how to do that since all the books are sealed inside her but won't do it.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> This is all well and good but does nothing to answer the whole " can she do it while getting mind-fucked " problem.





> - Spell Intercept: it uses notalicon codes to hi-jack the spell formula that the caster has been conjuring up in their head and cause the magic to go berserk or be outright cancelled. Index used this ability stand against Sherry Cromwell's Golem and to save Last Order from the computer virus that had forced her to manifest FUSE=Kazakiri



And since the series has magicians, espers, and divine abilities...



> Hell Fear: This is an ability that points out and impeaches the contradiction of the basis of the religion or theory of the magic that has been cast and causes a break down of the enemy's mind.





> Time related to life and death: Has the combat function of countering against any enemy that holds a weapon, having them kill themselves. It also has a very powerful defensive function, its enhanced his body to withstand the bullet from "Rabbit and Moon".





> St. George's Sanctuary: A high class defensive spell which tears apart the space of her surroundings, generating a void.



Combine with her mind working like a computer with 103,000 books that can't be destroyed and each with their own will, that's a bit to work with.

By the way, she can multi-task offense and defense.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> And since the series has magicians, espers, and divine abilities...



So nothing yet on Luke's remote scale for him to have to worry about.



> Combine with her mind working like a computer with 103,000 books that can't be destroyed and each with their own will, that's a bit to work with.



The books/grimores whatever are irreverent. You seem to be labouring under the misconception that even if you guys are conceding her mental power is nothing to Luke, you think some mental resistance or whatever will delay him when she's psychically so badly outmatched.

It won't.

At all.



> By the way, she can multi-task offense and defense.



So can a lot of Force-Users, again what Luke did to UnuThul. I fail to see how it matters as Luke can keep up both versions of his telepathy and illusions (internal and external) for long, long, time.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

multi-tasking between offense and defense is basic Force User combat

they cloud each other's precog and set up mental defenses while attacking all at the same time


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> Bullshit, your repeating yourself with debunked arguments now since you have nothing, absolutely nothing to disprove anything on Luke's telepathic scale or power for anyone in To-ARU to compare to.
> 
> End of the Dark Nest Trilogy/Swarm War, Luke crushed UnuThul in a mental battle right off  from the start in their last confrontation then the latter tried to use TK on him and failed.
> 
> ...



im not arguing on whether luke can beat gabriel in a mental battle, as Gabriel has not enough feats to beat luke, but how long it takes

if luke takes anythign longer than one second gabriel will already have teleported the nearest start into luke, in which case gg luke.

what i want are links/extracts from novels proving that luke can mindrape beings from a higher dimension within the space of a few seconds

or barring that, be able to instantaneously teleport far enough that if he was suddenly in the core of a sun-sized star he would be able to teleport far enough to escape death (probably hundreds of thousands to millions of miles. THe sun is a big thing)


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> Wait what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



its within ars magna's powers, the caster only has to think they are invincible ot their enemies attacks and they are, they only have to think for thier opponent to die and their opponent dies. 

Its not bullshit, ars magna is literally a spell that enables the caster to become a reality warper within the area of the spell.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> What? Nihilus did it to a bunch of worlds and planets in the Outer Rim and Unknown Regions, the millions comes specifically from the incident of Katar, where he mind-fucked "millions" of empathic/telepathic people of Miruka race (IIRC).



i thought nihilus just ate them with force drain or sumthing oO which unfortunatley for me means it >>>>>> mindfucking millions of people


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 30, 2010)

Palpatine also knows Force drain, the same as Nihilus. He had devoted himself to study the dark arts and learn as much as possible, the whole "kill the force" wank aside the ability is the same, Sidious could also drain life from an entire planet's population but with control over how much. Heck he's empowered his army across his empire with battle meditation raising their morale and prowess, he's also corrupted an entire planet with the mere presence of his dark side power so yes he has range  on planetary level and even greater perhaps.  That aside the Ars magna seems H4X but it's now going into no limits Fallacy, the character is not omnipotent, saying it can do anything the user wants like "kill galactus" or "Not be harmed by Titans from Saint Seiya" etc all seem no limits. You did'nt say that but I was just giving examples.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Palpatine also knows Force drain, the same as Nihilus. He had devoted himself to study the dark arts and learn as much as possible, the whole "kill the force" wank aside the ability is the same, Sidious could also drain life from an entire planet's population but with control over how much. Heck he's empowered his army across his empire with battle meditation raising their morale and prowess, he's also corrupted an entire planet with the mere presence of his dark side power so yes he has range  on planetary level and even greater perhaps.  That aside the Ars magna seems H4X but it's now going into no limits Fallacy, the character is not omnipotent, saying it can do anything the user wants like "kill galactus" or "Not be harmed by Titans from Saint Seiya" etc all seem no limits. You did'nt say that but I was just giving examples.



fair enough, but he wont survive a sun teleported into him.


----------



## Gundam Meister (Jul 30, 2010)

So I Made Some Changes to the OP how does the Match Go Now


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> im not arguing on whether luke can beat gabriel in a mental battle, as Gabriel has not enough feats to beat luke, but how long it takes



How would it take Luke long, what feats does Gabriel have that Luke would even be inconvenienced while mind-fucking him? 



> if luke takes anythign longer than one second gabriel will already have teleported the nearest start into luke, in which case gg luke.



Prove it or concede.



> what i want are links/extracts from novels proving that luke can mindrape beings from a higher dimension within the space of a few seconds



Concession accepted: if your going to make this sort of attempt at deflecting the fact that Luke will mind-rape him completely, angelic or deictic status means nothing here. 



> or barring that, be able to instantaneously teleport far enough that if he was suddenly in the core of a sun-sized star he would be able to teleport far enough to escape death (probably hundreds of thousands to millions of miles. THe sun is a big thing)



So is TKing objects at relativistic speeds into someone's core.



pikachuwei said:


> its within ars magna's powers, the caster only has to think they are invincible ot their enemies attacks and they are, they only have to think for thier opponent to die and their opponent dies.



Repeating no limits argument. 



> Its not bullshit, ars magna is literally a spell that enables the caster to become a reality warper within the area of the spell.



*Prove it will work when someone is getting their mind deleted.*



pikachuwei said:


> fair enough, but he wont survive a sun teleported into him.



That isn't happening, again, because Gabriel will never get the chance.


----------



## willyvereb (Jul 30, 2010)

Yeah, like Luke skywalker walks around and constantly mindrapes people on sight...
Seriously, I don't like how it always ends up like that. Even in EU jedis aren't like that. And Jedi mind tricks aren't as simple. Luke can't pull it off the instant he detects someone or at least according to my knownledge he had never shown to use it on someone instantly. Mind tricks need focus.

And if we're at multiple minds...well, Kiriyama in her multiskill state is like that too. She's linked with all the level-up users and it allowed her to use swarms of Esper abilities. Perhaps she can be beaten by Luke in physical combat so it's kind of moot.

Anyways, even if he can pull out his mind trick in time I strongly question how he can mind rape Angels. It's like someone states Luke Skywalker can mind-rape Galactus. Probably more considering that Angels in to-aru verse have an even more alien way of thinking.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

mind fucks don't need focus at all, what are you talking about


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

willyvereb said:


> Yeah, like Luke skywalker walks around and constantly mindrapes people on sight...



Like you know what your talking about.



> Seriously, I don't like how it always ends up like that. Even in EU jedis aren't like that.



Wrong.



> And Jedi mind tricks aren't as simple. Luke can't pull it off the instant he detects someone or at least according to my knownledge he had never shown to use it on someone instantly. Mind tricks need focus.



Wrong again.



> And if we're at multiple minds...well, Kiriyama in her multiskill state is like that too. She's linked with all the level-up users and it allowed her to use swarms of Esper abilities. Perhaps she can be beaten by Luke in physical combat so it's kind of moot.



UnuThul > Her.



> Anyways, even if he can pull out his mind trick in time I strongly question how he can mind rape Angels. It's like someone states Luke Skywalker can mind-rape Galactus. Probably more considering that Angels in to-aru verse have an even more alien way of thinking.



Shitty analogy and I like how you keep comparing standard mental suggestions that Mind Tricks are to actual telepathy.

GG.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

didn't Galen Marek easily alter the minds of a platoon of Stormies


----------



## Es (Jul 30, 2010)

Yeah and I remember when I saw the demo of Force Unleashed 2 he can also trick them into thinking he is an ally and make them commit suicide


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

Force Unleashed said:
			
		

> Simplicity suited him, however. He didn't want to think, to have to agonize over motives and methods. He just wanted to act. With none of the joy he had felt while assaulting the lodge and with none of the challenge offered by the black Imperial Guards on Bespin, he plowed through the faceless stormtroopers as a wampa would stride through snow. Sith lightning crackled; bodies broke under his irresistible telekinesis; *his mind influenced the decisions of officers, who ordered their underlings to attack one another in droves.* None could stand up to him and survive.



oh hey there


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 30, 2010)

Abigail said:


> It was also mentioned you need full concentration to use it.
> 
> Kinda hard to concentrate when you're in horribly agony from having a mental spike shoved into your brain.


Index basically runs off the books will and Laura's program, she can have full concentration even when she is in extreme pain. When normal index was slashed in the back by kanzaki kaori, a half awakened Johns pen mode kicked in and started talking normally about how beat Styil's Inocentous.



> Also, fucking with your brain in and of itself kinda makes it hard to concentrate.



Except what he would be attempting to mind rape is a computer program and a bunch of books which can not be re-written or destroyed. And again, that is Izzard's limitation, not Index's.



			
				From Volume 7 Chapter 2 said:
			
		

> ?A magic book cannot be burned. Especially for the special class of original magic books, the words, paragraphs, chapters will be converted into a magical code, using small amounts of energy released by nature or lifeforce as its power, like an automatically powered magic spell. So the most we can do is to seal it.?
> 
> ?Do you know what kind of thing is an original magic book? Do you know that one can?t destroy an original through any means??
> 
> ...





Abigail said:


> Even if it was only millions you'd still be a few zeros from making a valid point.
> 
> Nice try dodging the point though.



And again, the books aren't being mindraped. 



			
				From Volume 7 Chapter 2 said:
			
		

> ?A magic book cannot be burned. Especially for the special class of original magic books, the words, paragraphs, chapters will be converted into a magical code, using small amounts of energy released by nature or lifeforce as its power, like an automatically powered magic spell. So the most we can do is to seal it.?
> 
> ?Do you know what kind of thing is an original magic book? Do you know that one can?t destroy an original through any means??
> 
> ...





TWF said:


> EXCEPT that sounds like bullshit.


Except that is exactly how Ars magna works. It changes the rules of reality to how the user sees fit.



TWF said:


> This is all well and good but does nothing to answer the whole " can she do it while getting mind-fucked " problem.



Refer to my reply to Abigail above.



TWF said:


> Concession accepted: if your going to make this sort of attempt at deflecting the fact that Luke will mind-rape him completely, angelic or deictic status means nothing here.



He is asking for simple proof. I don't see why you can't just provide it. You have been demanding proof for the ToAru side this whole time, he is simply asking for the same for you side.



> So is TKing objects at relativistic speeds into someone's core.



Which is in another dimension.




> Repeating no limits argument.



Except that is exactly how ars magna works. Its reality warping.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> I don't see how it matters since as how high mid-tier Force-Users can mind-fuck or fool things outside of the organic or material boundaries.



Proof?



> Hi, lower Force-Users mentally dealing and reacting with the Force against turbolasers, Chiss charric guns, relativistic objects, ect...Luke is the top dog for a reason.





> A femtosecond is the SI unit of time equal to 10-15 of a second. That is one quadrillionth, or one millionth of one billionth of a second. For context, a femtosecond is to a second, what a second is to about 31.7 million years.



I want proof that they can react to something like that. Meaning scans, quotes databooks or whatever else says this. Judging from the definition of a femtosecond, Dodging relativistic objects doesn't mean they can react down to a femtosecond.



> A much weaker Force-User was mind-fucking sensors and programs of Nil Spaar's entire military naval battlegroup at the end of the Black Fleet Trilogy.
> 
> Luke is better than her.



Except these are books and programs that can not be destroyed. 



			
				From Volume 7 Chapter 2 said:
			
		

> ?A magic book cannot be burned. Especially for the special class of original magic books, the words, paragraphs, chapters will be converted into a magical code, using small amounts of energy released by nature or lifeforce as its power, like an automatically powered magic spell. So the most we can do is to seal it.?
> 
> ?Do you know what kind of thing is an original magic book? Do you know that one can?t destroy an original through any means??
> 
> ...






> And Force-Users have shown psychic control of electronic, mechanical, and computer technologies, its called mechu-dru.



Refer to the quote above.


> I'm not even going to take this response seriously.


In case you didn't know, I don't know much about star wars. I think my question was reasonable.




> He's not "forcing" (nice pun) visions into her mind, he's wiping out her congnitivity completely. Erasing, deleting, wiping, ending, ect...however you want to adjective it.


Good luck to him destroying the destroyable books in her head.



> Proof?





			
				From Volume 7 Chapter 2 said:
			
		

> ?A magic book cannot be burned. Especially for the special class of original magic books, the words, paragraphs, chapters will be converted into a magical code, using small amounts of energy released by nature or lifeforce as its power, like an automatically powered magic spell. So the most we can do is to seal it.?
> 
> ?Do you know what kind of thing is an original magic book? Do you know that one can?t destroy an original through any means??
> 
> ...





> He's going to not notice them since their not going to make a lick of difference against his telepathy.



Except he isn't going to kill the books in the first place. Refer to above.



> You know that has only to do with time-stopping right? And that was before Luke's power-up from the Aing-Ti's Codex (which sent all the Force-Users: several hundreds of them, from the Sith Lost Tribe, reeling ont he other end of the galaxy and his ability to teleport shit). So what's your point?



Which is why I was wondering if he got some type of powerup after his battle with the FCK.

Would the Aing-Ti's Codex allow luke to move in a timestop?



> Are you accusing me, CD, or EM of wanking Luke's telepathy? Especially when all three of us having playing it pretty conservative with his feats and abilities?


I do believe people are overestimating his abilities a bit yes. Mainly because the people he was put up against before are much weaker then most of the ToAru cast.



> This is pathetic. Your seriously demanding for evidence on a very basic premise of Force-User fights: they have to not only fight on a physical, material level, but also on a psychic one whenever Dark Jedi/Sith/Jedi fight each other.



Yes, I'm asking for evidence, which is something people have been asking for ToAru feats for a long time now. I don't see what the problem is, especially since I know nothing about star wars and want to judge the feats for myself.



> Luke isn't getting mind-fucked by anyone from To-ARU when it comes to telepathy.



Alright. Again, I don't know much about star wars, so for all I knew he could have been a expert at mind raping others, but had trouble defending against it himself.



> I'm pretty sure that fades in importance when you have a psychic who can spike your brain like he can do to billions of people into nothing.



The books can not be destroyed.



> So what, the mental capacity of a human brain > a computer, a computer > a book.



The books can not be destroyed or rewritten..... Ive still yet to see proof of him being able to mind rape books either. I don't believe my request is unreasonable, since you have been asking for the same thing from me.




> And Ars Manga is going to do this how past Luke's mental shields, which are strong enough to completely thwart UnuThul's, who can dominate the minds of billions of Killicks, other Force-Users across the galaxy, create a "murkiness" in the Force, and has the collective Force power of an entire race who still got bent over by Luke.



Actually yes. Ars magna would have no problems with getting past his shields. It's simple reality warping.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Palpatine also knows Force drain, the same as Nihilus. He had devoted himself to study the dark arts and learn as much as possible, the whole "kill the force" wank aside the ability is the same, Sidious could also drain life from an entire planet's population but with control over how much. Heck he's empowered his army across his empire with battle meditation raising their morale and prowess, he's also corrupted an entire planet with the mere presence of his dark side power so yes he has range  on planetary level and even greater perhaps.  That aside the Ars magna seems H4X but it's now going into no limits Fallacy, the character is not omnipotent, saying it can do anything the user wants like "kill galactus" or "Not be harmed by Titans from Saint Seiya" etc all seem no limits. You did'nt say that but I was just giving examples.



Like I said, the only limit seems to be human limitation like knowledge. You probably can make yourself FTL via Ars Magna if they know how that works (like simple math) but I can't say it'll make them omnipotent b/c that would be complete BS even I would think so since how would you know HOW omnipotency works. Such as I said before, Aureolus didn't know To Aru verse Vamps well so he couldn't make one out of thin air, but he can still do blatantly impossible shit. 

Index on the other hand functions as a computer with a large library of spells written and memorized into her head. As of now, I have no idea how powerful she can get since only a handful of books and spells were revealed compared to the rest of the 103,000. Ars Magna being one of them. And another book seems like she could make herself immortal if she wanted to.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 30, 2010)

No you're basically just rehashing the same idiotic argument again, like I said this should'nt work on a cosmic like Galactus or Chousin simply because only human imagination is the limit, that still dodges the fact on whether you agree it will work on such cosmics or not. HOW does Omnipotence work? You're right that's a shitstorm waiting to happen like any omnipotence argument but you have still used a no limits Fallacy.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> No you're basically just rehashing the same idiotic argument again, like I said this should'nt work on a cosmic like Galactus or Chousin simply because only human imagination is the limit, that still dodges the fact on whether you agree it will work on such cosmics or not. HOW does Omnipotence work? You're right that's a shitstorm waiting to happen like any omnipotence argument but you have still used a no limits Fallacy.



If they have resistance to Reality Warping, and in those two cases, they will have no trouble against it. The Chousin being omnipotent (or nigh, either or) and Galactus in general.

However, that wouldn't excuse Skywalker's case unless he has valid feats of Reality Warping resistance and(or) ignores it. Ars Magna actually being border line no-limits.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Index basically runs off the books will and Laura's program, she can have full concentration even when she is in extreme pain. When normal index was slashed in the back by kanzaki kaori, a half awakened Johns pen mode kicked in and started talking normally about how beat Styil's Inocentous.



What relevance does this have with Luke?

Nothing.



> Except what he would be attempting to mind rape is a computer program and a bunch of books which can not be re-written or destroyed. And again, that is Izzard's limitation, not Index's.



Except electronics and technology as well as non-sentient lifeforms have be mind-fucked by him.

So Occham's Razor folds in my way of the outcome of Luke's telepathy.



> And again, the books aren't being mindraped.



Tell that to the crystals and technology Luke has used his telepathy on.



> Except that is exactly how Ars magna works. It changes the rules of reality to how the user sees fit.



Ad naseum repeating of a no limits argument. Prove it will work when she is being splayed psychically into a mental guro victim under Luke's telepathic holocaust.



> Refer to my reply to Abigail above.



Already rebutted multiple times now.



> He is asking for simple proof. I don't see why you can't just provide it. You have been demanding proof for the ToAru side this whole time, he is simply asking for the same for you side.



I haven't posted excerpt or quotes in this thread? And CD and EM haven't either? And bullshit Luke is dealing with Abeloth, so stop trying to invoke "angelic" status as a buffer on our arguments.



> Which is in another dimension.



Hello Fold-Space and Shatterpoints. What is your point, Luke can attack people in other dimensions.



> Except that is exactly how ars magna works. Its reality warping.



Good for it, too bad Index will never be able to use it.



~Greed~ said:


> Proof?







> I want proof that they can react to something like that. Meaning scans, quotes databooks or whatever else says this. Judging from the definition of a femtosecond, Dodging relativistic objects doesn't mean they can react down to a femtosecond.



Luke placing an astral projection and cloaking it as Darth Vader to Leia while the Falcon was in hyperspace. I'm pretty sure I've posted that scan in the past from Dark Empire.



> Except these are books and programs that can not be destroyed.



Burden of Proof: Prove their indestructible. Or better yet prove based off Luke's numerous and varied use and effects of his telepathy can't sodomize them since we already have MASSIVE scale of his capacity as a telepath completely bending over anyone in To-ARU. 



> Refer to the quote above.



Link removed

No.



> In case you didn't know, I don't know much about star wars. I think my question was reasonable.



Its a funny question to pose to on a telepath who can effect billions to trillions of people, which you have been made aware multiple times.



> Good luck to him *destroying the destroyable books in her head.*



Uh yeah.



> Except he isn't going to kill the books in the first place. Refer to above.



I've already rebuked you and Xelloss on this.



> Which is why I was wondering if he got some type of powerup after his battle with the FCK.



Non sequiter. 



> Would the Aing-Ti's Codex allow luke to move in a timestop?



Irreverent as Luke can teleport his lightsaber off the bat into his heart or mind-fuck FCK immediately. FCK isn't a match for Luke now. 



> I do believe people are overestimating his abilities a bit yes. Mainly because the people he was put up against before are much weaker then most of the ToAru cast.



Hi, I'm Luke Skywalker and I beat people who can mindfuck billions of beings, across the entire galaxy and generate attacks that can destroy the surfaces of planets or incinerate even continents.

I'm sure Darth Sidious and Exar Kun are nobodies right? 



> Yes, I'm asking for evidence, which is something people have been asking for ToAru feats for a long time now. I don't see what the problem is, especially since I know nothing about star wars and want to judge the feats for myself.



Your objectivity in this thread is highly unlikely. And it is a common basic ability as CD already covered this, they project Pre-Cog against Pre-Cog, mental attacks and ripostes as well while fighting physically.

Sidious vs Windu in RoTS were doing this to its epitome. 



> Alright. Again, I don't know much about star wars, so for all I knew he could have been a expert at mind raping others, but had trouble defending against it himself.







> The books can not be destroyed.



Maybe not physically since they are absorbed into her mind but that still doesn't change the fact Luke will shred them apart when going after her mind in the same way the Death Star's superlaser completely overpowered Alderaan's planetary theater shield in a millionth of millisecond.




> The books can not be destroyed or rewritten..... Ive still yet to see proof of him being able to mind rape books either. I don't believe my request is unreasonable, since you have been asking for the same thing from me.



Force-Users can make illusions real.
Force-Users can use telepathy on warships, non-sentient lifeforms and technology, those outside or resistant to the Force, ect...
Force-Users have fooled or screwed over scanners, sensors, comms, recorders with their illusions and telepathy.
Force-Users can use those skills in other dimensions.
Luke has done 99% of that and overpowered mental brainwashing and hypnotizing from the Eye of Palpatine.

Occham's Razor suggests based off his feats he will in the face of anything you have provided to say otherwise thus far.



> Actually yes. Ars magna would have no problems with getting past his shields. It's simple reality warping.



I never said Luke was resistant to Ars Manga, I said and will keep saying it doesn't make a lick of difference as his physical speed, reactions, prescience, clairvoyance, and telepathy make your argument groundless on it having any effect when Luke is already shattering Index's mind before she'll even know the fight has started.



basch71 said:


> *To-ARU jargon*



No limits still, check.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> I haven't posted excerpt or quotes in this thread? And CD and EM haven't either? And bullshit Luke is dealing with Abeloth, so stop trying to invoke "angelic" status as a buffer on our arguments.



not nearly enough to support many of the stuff you say luke can do

1) i dont recall any quotes/excerpts about the speed at which Unu'Thul was mindraped
2) only link to abeloth vs luke was wookepedia which you urself acknowledged was fallible
3)still no links proving luke can mindrape within femtosecond.
4) no link proving luke can teleport his lightsaber or however else he is going to destroy a core in another dimension

i may be wrong and may have missed your proofs on these above points, but if you want us to conceed kindly give us the quotes. Greed and xelloss dont know much about star wars and im mostly limited to movie canon and a bit of EU (from wat ive read in my library) so we do lack a indepth understanding of the scope of luke's powers


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

> 1) i dont recall any quotes/excerpts about the speed at which Unu'Thul was mindraped
> 2) only link to abeloth vs luke was wookepedia which you urself acknowledged was fallible
> 3)still no links proving luke can mindrape within femtosecond.
> 4) no link proving luke can teleport his lightsaber or however else he is going to destroy a core in another dimension
> ...




Stop lying and attempting to twist my words. Speed of Thought from Force-users > lightspeed/FTL projectiles and objects, proven fact.

Luke pretty much instantly did it to UnuThul in the passages I posted from Dark Nest III: Swarm War with his telepathic riposte on UnuThul's psychic broadcast to him. 

Secondly I have now repeatedly said Wookieepedia isn't anything like what your thinking it is, so attempting that you have failed again to try and reach around on that argument.

Number three, burden of proof is on you to even prove Luke can't teleport or mind-fuck Gabriel or Index when it has been repeatedly proven Luke can sense, attack, and project into other dimensions beyond 4-dimensional barriers.



pikachuwei said:


> not nearly enough to support many of the stuff you say luke can do



Ahahahahaha, pardon my bullshit detector from going off here.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> Stop lying and attempting to twist my words. Speed of Thought from Force-users > lightspeed/FTL projectiles and objects, proven fact.
> 
> Luke pretty much instantly did it to UnuThul in the passages I posted from Dark Nest III: Swarm War with his telepathic riposte on UnuThul's psychic broadcast to him.
> 
> ...



1) speed of thought =/= speed of raping someone's mind
2)kindly post the unuthul passage again (or tell me which page it is on)
3)i was talking about how wookipedia's entry on abeloth wasnt that hot, and would appreciate extra information on abeloth in the form of links or quotes
4)i know that its been said link can attack people in hyperspace but link anyway

5) considering that the toaru side has posted far more proof its not too harsh to ask for the same from your side no?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> What relevance does this have with Luke?
> 
> Nothing.



A point was brought up that she wouldn't be able to pull off Ars Magna when luke mentally torturing her. I countered that by stating that Johns Pen mode does not feel pain. It was a valid argument.



> Except electronics and technology as well as non-sentient lifeforms have be mind-fucked by him.



Did you not fucking read the quote from the novel I posted. The books can not be destroyed. Ive yet to see you counter this, even though you keep claiming you have. How exactly is he going to destroy the books?

Moreover, Luke kills himself since he is carrying a weapon. One of index's spell books automatically does this.



> So Occham's Razor folds in my way of the outcome of Luke's telepathy.



*The books can not be destroyed.*. Can't counter the argument? Then concession accepted.



> Tell that to the crystals and technology Luke has used his telepathy on.


*The books can not be destroyed.*.



> Ad naseum repeating of a no limits argument. Prove it will work when she is being splayed psychically into a mental guro victim under Luke's telepathic holocaust.


Again, as long as the books are not destroyed she can use the spell.




> Already rebutted multiple times now.



Except it wasn't. You have yet to show proof that luke can destroy something that can not be destroyed. As long as the books are fine then Index will stay alive.



> I haven't posted excerpt or quotes in this thread? And CD and EM haven't either? And bullshit Luke is dealing with Abeloth, so stop trying to invoke "angelic" status as a buffer on our arguments.



I've seen you post a few quotes, but the ones I really wanted weren't posted.

I want proof that he can mindrape inanimate objects, proof that he can destroy something that can not be destroyed, proof of his reaction speed, proof that he can react to something moving at FTL speeds. Proof that he can defend against reality warping, and proof that Lasers in star wars are actual lasers that move at light speed. You have provided none of these.




> Good for it, too bad Index will never be able to use it.


Except she will, since the books in her head, which is basically her mind in johns pen mode, can not be destroyed.



How does that prove he can mindrape inanimate objects?

Also, Judging from that, Turbolasers are not even real lasers. 



> 1.Turbolaser bolts glow visibly even in vacuum. Since lasers don't radiate energy away from their direction of travel, the bolts can't be lasers.
> 
> 
> 4. The visible portion of a turbolaser bolt travels at distinctly subluminal speed even in vacuum. Since light travels at c in vacuum, the bolts can't be lasers.
> ...




Are they even lightspeed? It says they are made with some form of gas.



> Burden of Proof: Prove their indestructible. Or better yet prove based off Luke's numerous and varied use and effects of his telepathy can't sodomize them since we already have MASSIVE scale of his capacity as a telepath completely bending over anyone in To-ARU.



I already did, multiple times. I'll post it again right now.



			
				 the quote which states they can not be destroyed. said:
			
		

> ?A magic book cannot be burned. Especially for the special class of original magic books, the words, paragraphs, chapters will be converted into a magical code, using small amounts of energy released by nature or lifeforce as its power, like an automatically powered magic spell. So the most we can do is to seal it.?
> 
> ?Do you know what kind of thing is an original magic book? Do you know that one can?t destroy an original through any means??
> 
> ...



I'll reply to the rest later, since I have to deal with annoyiong small children at work now.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

^now that i think about it, Greed is right. Turbolasers =/= lightspeed. is there alternative sources for proving that Luke has lightspeed reactions?

and according to the sources a low end broadside from a ISD is 6E19 watts or 14000 megatons or sumthing... compared with accelerator's 1E26/2 exatons... oO

but god 1E30+ for deathstar is scary.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> ^now that i think about it, Greed is right. Turbolasers =/= lightspeed. is there alternative sources for proving that Luke has lightspeed reactions?



And if we go by Marvel's definition, Speed of thought >>> speed of light. Which would mean Ars Magna is done on the spot.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> And if we go by Marvel's definition, Speed of thought >>> speed of light. Which would mean Ars Magna is done on the spot.



and same with teleporting the sun into luke...

but i dont think theres speed of thought equalization in OBD...

so some people think faster than others (makes sense lol)


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> and same with teleporting the sun into luke...
> 
> but i dont think theres speed of thought equalization in OBD...
> 
> so some people think faster than others (makes sense lol)



The fastest human psionics in Marvel, such as Xavier & Magneto, think closer to computer speeds. Guess whose mind works like a computer?


----------



## Rashou (Jul 30, 2010)

I've tried to stay out of this, since I have very limited experience with both sides, but now I'm too curious.

On the side of To Aru:

-How fast is Index in whatever mode allows her to reality warp? And do each of the books have their own "mind" existing at the same time within her a la Alex Mercer (who constantly hears the voices of the people he's absorbed), or is it just that Johan Pen mode or whatever turns her into a kind of sentient computer which has access to 103000 databanks of mindraping texts. My interpretation from reading the manga was that it's the latter (meaning Luke wouldn't have to do anything other than mess up the mind of Index in whatever mode, and shouldn't have to worry about the books at all). 

-What kind of speed are we talking about for everyone on the To Aru side? I think Greed mentioned there are laser timing midtiers, so if both sides have FTL reflexes then the one that has to go through less of a process to formulate the winning strategy should win. IE, since Luke has to go from thinking "use Force to mindrape my opponent" to actually attempting to do it, he should be overcome by INdex if she really has similar speed and just has to think he shouldn't exist. 

For Star Wars:

-I've been skimming through some of this debate, so I might have missed it, but it seems like a lot of the "mindrapes" being mentioned are things like cloaking, sensory manipulation, and empathy on beings. Which is different from completely overwriting mental processes, or even brainwashing and making someone think they're someone/something else. It's less difficult to make someone think that they can't move or make them see something that isn't there (or don't see something that is there) than to actually wipe out their thought process, so are there any examples of the Force doing the latter? Sorry if I missed them before.

-I don't fully understand the terminology, so forgive me if I'm off base here, but I keep seeing stuff about Luke attacking as a Force spirit or spiritual presence which makes me think that even if his physical body was destroyed... Couldn't he keep fighting a spirit anyway (making stuff like the sun teleport and possibly Ars Magna kind of useless)? 

Some stuff I'm curious about, and since this thread's running in circles figure I might as well put some new stuff to argue out there.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

Rashou said:


> Which is different from completely overwriting mental processes, or even brainwashing and making someone think they're someone/something else.



Again, Palpatine altered the memories of millions to billions in order to make them forget about the Lusankya, a bloodlusted Darth Vader completely destroyed a Toydarian's mind, Battle Meditation in general can mentally alter the emotional states of entire armies and is a type of brainwashing, and finally the Jedi Council in KOTOR trying to re-write Revan's memories


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

Heir to the Empire said:
			
		

> "It was the Emperor's will that drove you; the Emperor's mind that provided you with strength and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependent on that presence as if you were all borg-implanted into a combat computer."
> 
> "That's not true," Pellaeon shot back, stomach twisting painfully within him. "It can't be. We fought on after his death."
> 
> ...



it wasn't the Emperor that did that though, it was some Grand Admiral via retcon, but that doesn't matter since Palpatine is still capable of replicating it 

so yeah, altering the mental states of thousands isn't out of the range of top-tier Force Users


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> is there alternative sources for proving that Luke has lightspeed reactions?





			
				Coruscant Nights said:
			
		

> "I wouldn't know. I do know, however, ", I-Five said, "that you're much better with that sword than you think you are. "
> 
> Jax glanced down at the weapon, saw his distorted reflection looking back at him from the blade's surface. "Yeah? How do you know th---?"
> 
> ...



Jax Pavan is pretty much nothing compared to Luke, yet he can block real lasers due to precog and enhanced reflexes


----------



## Rashou (Jul 30, 2010)

Only the Toydarian feat (after googling and finding out Toydarians are apparently resistant to mind tricks) is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'm unclear of the Lusankya feat, but it sounds like he made the population of the planet not pay it any attention, basically, which is impressive in terms of quantity but not necessarily quality. 

How many people do you have to be able to make ignore something to equal one mindrape of a mentally strong willed individual? But Revan and the Toydarian feats provide mind tricks can be used to really mindrape (and not just coerce/fool) but what is the scale like for their mind destroying feats (has anyone Luke's level ever destroyed more than one mind at once, basically?)

And while I'm at it, on To Aru's side, what was the Scroll of Constantine? I heard it mind raped the planet, but what was the quality of the mind rape, and if Accelerator endured it, would that mean Index has sufficient mental power to resist mindrape of the scroll?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 30, 2010)

Rashou said:


> -How fast is Index in whatever mode allows her to reality warp?


She doesn't move very much, but she light speed attacks, and some hax techniques like killing anyone who holds a weapon, and ars magna, which can actually wipe things out of existence. Her reality warping is also thought speed.



> And do each of the books have their own "mind" existing at the same time within her a la Alex Mercer (who constantly hears the voices of the people he's absorbed), or is it just that Johan Pen mode or whatever turns her into a kind of sentient computer which has access to 103000 databanks of mindraping texts.  My interpretation from reading the manga was that it's the latter (meaning Luke wouldn't have to do anything other than mess up the mind of Index in whatever mode, and shouldn't have to worry about the books at all).



It's kind of a combo of both. Each book does have it's own mind. 


			
				from the wiki said:
			
		

> *A grimoire also has a "mind" of its own, seeking out suitable owners that can spread its knowledge and improving itself by letting its owners add more knowledge into the grimoire[3]*. Touma, before losing his memories, once described a grimoire as a computer virus that's continuously evolving and spreading itself at a rate faster than that of its vaccine being designed[4]. If the grimoire judges its current owner to be unsuitable, it will kill him/her and seek out the next one, as shown in Volumes 15 and 19.



But I'm not sure if Johns pen mode is overriding the books will and replacing it with it's own. Though johns pen mode kind of exists as a computer program rather then as a human will. I think that as long as the books exist, johns pen mode will still function (unless of course they are wiped out like when touma used IB on johns pen mode and destroyed it). 

The again, when Johns pen mode was destroyed the books didn't take over......so I guess if johns pen mode was destroyed Index would lose.





> -What kind of speed are we talking about for everyone on the To Aru side?



Some mid tiers can defend against light speed attacks, but most are only hypersonic. A lot of characters have light speed attacks though, like kakine's dark matter, Accelerator's vector powered throws, Index's Light beam etc. 

There is usually a reason can defend against these attacks though. For instance, Touma has precog, so he can dodge light speed attacks because of that.


----------



## Rashou (Jul 30, 2010)

If they're "only" hypersonic and Luke has FTL reactions then he should be able to blitz.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

Rashou said:


> I'm unclear of the Lusankya feat, but it sounds like he made the population of the planet not pay it any attention, basically, which is impressive in terms of quantity but not necessarily quality.





			
				NEGC said:
			
		

> She [Isard] renamed the vessel the Lusanyka, and with help from the Emperor's mind-fogging powers, Imperial engineers buried the tremendous battleship beneath the cityscape in Coruscant's Manari Mountain district.





			
				Krytos Trap said:
			
		

> The idea that a hundred-square kilometer area of the planet could have been razed and rebuilt to hide a Super Star Destroyer seemed beyond belief, especially with no one noticing the ship's insertion into the hole. Could the Emperor's power through the dark side of the Force have been sufficient to compel thousands or millions of people to forget having seen the Lusankya being buried?
> 
> As hideous as that idea seemed, Wedge hoped it was the truth. The likely alternative--that the Emperor had ordered the deaths of all the witnesses--seemed that much more horrible.



Quantity is its own quality and focusing all of that into one mind would result in a drooling infant, unless that person has some really impressive mental defense feats 

and again:



			
				TFU novel said:
			
		

> Simplicity suited him, however. He didn't want to think, to have to agonize over motives and methods. He just wanted to act. With none of the joy he had felt while assaulting the lodge and with none of the challenge offered by the black Imperial Guards on Bespin, he plowed through the faceless stormtroopers as a wampa would stride through snow. Sith lightning crackled; bodies broke under his irresistible telekinesis; *his mind influenced the decisions of officers, who ordered their underlings to attack one another in droves.* None could stand up to him and survive.



making officers order their men to attack each other requires more than mere suggestion, I would think


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 30, 2010)

Rashou said:


> If they're "only" hypersonic and Luke has FTL reactions then he should be able to blitz.



Like I said, some characters have light speed attacks and light speed reactions. And others have defenses that defend against light speed attacks.

Also, according to his wiki profile. Luke can react to things moving at light speed because his precog. He is only hypersonic+, just like most ToAru Characters.



> Speed: Hypersonic+ relativistic (possibly lightspeed) reactions augmented by Precognition



He isn't blitzing anyone.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> A point was brought up that she wouldn't be able to pull off Ars Magna when luke mentally torturing her. I countered that by stating that Johns Pen mode does not feel pain. It was a valid argument.



He isn't going to be mentally torturing, she's going to have no mind and therefore incapable of doing anything ever again.



> Did you not fucking read the quote from the novel I posted. The books can not be destroyed. Ive yet to see you counter this, even though you keep claiming you have. How exactly is he going to destroy the books?



Okay and by that logic you so artfully wish to be recognized here than Luke > super massive black holes.

Moreover, Luke kills himself since he is carrying a weapon. One of index's spell books automatically does this.



> *The books can not be destroyed.*. Can't counter the argument? Then concession accepted.



Luke > Black holes.



> *The books can not be destroyed.*.



Luke > Black holes.



> Again, as long as the books are not destroyed she can use the spell.



And the books are going to be destroyed by Luke's mind.



> Except it wasn't. You have yet to show proof that luke can destroy something that can not be destroyed. As long as the books are fine then Index will stay alive.



Repeating yourself, concession accepted.



> I've seen you post a few quotes, but the ones I really wanted weren't posted.



On what?



> I want proof that he can mindrape inanimate objects, proof that he can destroy something that can not be destroyed, proof of his reaction speed, proof that he can react to something moving at FTL speeds. Proof that he can defend against reality warping, and proof that Lasers in star wars are actual lasers that move at light speed. You have provided none of these.



Yes.
We.
Have.



> Except she will, since the books in her head, which is basically her mind in johns pen mode, can not be destroyed.



Luke > Palpatine/UnuThul/Nihilus > trillions of beings. He's going to sodomize her mind.



> How does that prove he can mindrape inanimate objects?



I'm sorry, what part of creating illusions that work against Wars level technology do you not understand?



> Also, Judging from that, Turbolasers are not even real lasers.



Turbolasers cover light-hour ranges and entire star system diameters. 

Turbolasers aren't just the green visible energy component which the link from a fucking physics engineer's own calculations and observations from the god damn OT films make clear they are at minimum, lightspeed.

Get over it.



> Are they even lightspeed? It says they are made with some form of gas.



Reading comprehension: SMH.



> I already did, multiple times. I'll post it again right now.



Yay for a bunch of obfuscating dialogue and character falliable statements.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Also the weaker Jedi Knights and Force-Users from Luke's Praxeum were dealing with turbolasers and he did so actively, without anything directly stating he was doing anything other than amping his own reflexes than subconsciously let the Force precipitate the attacks.

Therefore wrong.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

> Luke > Black holes.



What does this have to do with books that can't be destroyed? The grimoires couldn't be destroyed so the Church sealed them inside Index which was the only thing they COULD do.



> And the books are going to be destroyed by Luke's mind.



How is Luke gonna destroy something that can't be destroyed?


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Hey do you know the part in my last response to Greed where I said I don't care about obfuscated dialogue and character fallible statements?

Same response here.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> Hey do you know the part in my last response to Greed where I said I don't care about obfuscated dialogue and character fallible statements?
> 
> Same response here.



And that's supposed to be a defense on your side? It's really weak.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Right, says the side who thinks telepaths who can mind-rape trillions of people and across an entire galaxy/multiple dimensions require TK to do so.

Man, I guess Cell is a solar system buster too by that logic.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

What am I getting mad about? 

And trying to powerscale Index to Charles Xavier's speed of thought. Rightttttttttttttttttt.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> What am I getting mad about?
> 
> And trying to powerscale Index to Charles Xavier's speed of thought. Rightttttttttttttttttt.



You know, I could retort that statement. But seeing how this is gonna turn out (out most likely will turn, bad), I'm not.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Seeing as you made two posts on it, I find that pretty hilarious your still trying to insist that i'm "lol u mad" here as the culprit of anything.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> He isn't going to be mentally torturing, she's going to have no mind and therefore incapable of doing anything ever again.



Actually, Just as Rashou has asked for before. Do you have proof of Luke completely crushing someones mind? 

Not that this matters since he isn't destroying index's books opr johns pen mode, IE her mind.



> Okay and by that logic you so artfully wish to be recognized here than Luke > super massive black holes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What does "luke> black holes" have to do with being able to destroy the books in her head?



> And the books are going to be destroyed by Luke's mind.


No they aren't.




> Repeating yourself, concession accepted.


I'm repeating myself because you aparenetly haven't read the quotes I posted until the very last part of your post, where you gave a argument for them.

On what?




> Yes.
> We.
> Have.



Then repost your proof for what I asked for. Because I haven't seen this proof, and I know others in this thread have said they haven't seen it as well.





> Luke > Palpatine/UnuThul/Nihilus > trillions of beings. He's going to sodomize her mind.



Except he isn't. He isn't destroying Johns Pen mode, a computer program, or the living books in her head.



> I'm sorry, what part of creating illusions that work against Wars level technology do you not understand?


What does illusions have to do with mind rape? 

For instance, A character can create a illusion that fools a camera, but that doesn't mean that said camera is getting mind raped.



> Turbolasers cover light-hour ranges and entire star system diameters.



Proof?


> Turbolasers aren't just the green visible energy component which the link from a fucking physics engineer's own calculations and observations from the god damn OT films make clear they are at minimum, lightspeed.
> 
> Get over it.


You mean from the link you posted earlier? Ill reply to this part after I look through that again.




> Reading comprehension: SMH.



I didn't see anything that proves they are light speed in the link you provided. But then again I didn't look through the whole thing. Can you post the a quote from that website you provided which states that they are lightspeed?




> Yay for a bunch of obfuscating dialogue and character falliable statements.



Read below. The statements were backed up several times throughout the story.



TWF said:


> Right, says the side who thinks telepaths who can mind-rape trillions of people and across an entire galaxy/multiple dimensions require TK to do so.



You do realize that he probably mixed up telepathy with Telekenisis. 



> Man, I guess Cell is a solar system buster too by that logic.


That is a horrible comparison. The quotes from the novels that I posted were backed up several times in the story. For one, one of the major plot points in the 1st novel is that they could not destroy the magic books, and they needed to seal them inside Index's head and lock the original books away because they could not actually destroy them. It was also backed up when it was stated that one of the few possible ways to destroy the books was for Touma to touch them with Imagine Breaker. And again in novel 7 when it was stated that they could not be destroyed, with explict reason as to why they could not be destroyed. This is a novel, there is no actual Visual evidence, just character statements.  On the other hand, cell is a known liar, infact, half of Cell's lines are lies. 

Your counter argument for them not being able to be destroyed is fairly weak.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Jax Pavan is pretty much nothing compared to Luke, yet he can block real lasers due to precog and enhanced reflexes



see this is the type of post that helps win debates, instead of TWF just saying bull over and over again

so we have proof of Luke's FTL reflexes due to powerscaling

now for the other ones i demanded....

and also, someone should mention the power of an individual grimoire

Etzali was your run of the mill magician who had trouble destroying stuff larger than a car. After he stole and read a grimoire, he was able to use rabbit bones to shoot a bullet that can penetrate a bunker able to tank a direct hit from a nuclear weapon. And that was one of the weaker grimoires.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 30, 2010)

There is also the Book in Index's head which automatically has anyone holding a weapon kill themselves.......and luke always has a light saber and blaster on him. He kills himself. Just because he is in her presence.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 30, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> see this is the type of post that helps win debates, instead of TWF just saying bull over and over again
> 
> so we have proof of Luke's FTL reflexes due to powerscaling
> 
> ...



Thats a assumition we dont know how each grimmore compare to each other, and he could destroy a building.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Thats a assumition we dont know how each grimmore compare to each other, and he could destroy a building.



Between an energy blast that can snipe a satellite in orbit all the way from the ground to Ars Magna to that one book that can make her immortal once prepped. And that's like what, a handful compared to the rest?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 30, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Thats a assumition we dont know how each grimmore compare to each other, and he could destroy a building.



Just to make sure others don't misunderstand, he could destroy a building _before_ he read the Grimiore called "The Rabbit and the Moon". After he read it he could pump out more damage then a nuke.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Thats a assumition we dont know how each grimmore compare to each other, and he could destroy a building.



The Book of Law vs The Rabbit and the Moon.

jeez i wonder which one is stronger.

its obvious the rabbit and the moon is not a top tier grimoire at any rate.

judging by how in toaru the more famous the original RL book is the stronger it was... Egyptian Book of the Dead, Necrowatever its called and stuff are all stronger.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

pikachuwei said:


> The Book of Law vs The Rabbit and the Moon.
> 
> jeez i wonder which one is stronger.
> 
> ...



Necronomicon, the book of the dead. She can use it to raise the dead. Zombie army.


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 30, 2010)

The only reason why the book of the law is the most wanted is because noone have been able to decipher it.

Books have different uses so you are comparing a book with actual spells a mage can use to a book noone can use.


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Actually, Just as Rashou has asked for before. Do you have proof of Luke completely crushing someones mind?



I already posted it.



> Not that this matters since he isn't destroying index's books opr johns pen mode, IE her mind.



Yes, he is.



> What does "luke> black holes" have to do with being able to destroy the books in her head?



Your grasping at straws if you can't see the point of what I said.



> No they aren't.



Your opinion isn't important here.



> I'm repeating myself because you aparenetly haven't read the quotes I posted until the very last part of your post, where you gave a argument for them.



Your repeating a fucking rebuked argument because you have nothing else and everyone other than the four of you knows it.

Argument ad verbosity isn't going to save you any face here.



> *snip*



Wrong again.



> *snip*



Still repeating yourself on a debunked argument.



> What does illusions have to do with mind rape?



Everything when its utilized through telepathy.



> For instance, A character can create a illusion that fools a camera, but that doesn't mean that said camera is getting mind raped.



A shitty analogy. SW tech can't tell the difference between real tangible warships and Luke's illusions. The same way Luke has twisted millions of peoples thoughts when he puts on an internal illusion.



> Proof?



Have you watched any Star Wars movie, ever? Why the fuck do you think Vader killed Ozzel? He wanted Death Squadron to revert into real space just inside of the Hoth star system and snipe the shield generator so they couldn't impede the invasion force.

And seeing how that is a standard Imperial SoP, your concession to anymore doubting of this anymore is accepted.



> You mean from the link you posted earlier? Ill reply to this part after I look through that again.





We have repeated cases of objects being destroyed, atomized, or hit by a turbolaser before the visible component even touches it. 

So get over it.



> I didn't see anything that proves they are light speed in the link you provided. But then again I didn't look through the whole thing. Can you post the a quote from that website you provided which states that they are lightspeed?



Explain why consistently targets thousands of kilometers away in 1/10th second timed frames are hit before the visible portion of a turoblaser contacts it.



> Read below. The statements were backed up several times throughout the story.



Still haven't seen anything.



> You do realize that he probably mixed up telepathy with Telekenisis.



No, you guys all did it quite a bit. 



> That is a horrible comparison. The quotes from the novels that I posted were backed up several times in the story. For one, one of the major plot points in the 1st novel is that they could not destroy the magic books, and they needed to seal them inside Index's head and lock the original books away because they could not actually destroy them. It was also backed up when it was stated that one of the few possible ways to destroy the books was for Touma to touch them with Imagine Breaker. And again in novel 7 when it was stated that they could not be destroyed, with explict reason as to why they could not be destroyed. This is a novel, there is no actual Visual evidence, just character statements.  On the other hand, cell is a known liar, infact, half of Cell's lines are lies.



Not really known, I want direct evidence. You know like the kind we showed for Palpatine and what Luke did to UnuThul.



> Your counter argument for them not being able to be destroyed is fairly weak.





pikachuwei said:


> see this is the type of post that helps win debates, instead of TWF just saying bull over and over again



How about you lay off the shitty ad hominems and realize how many quotes and scans I've posted from the novels and comics already.

Or am I asking too much from you?



> so we have proof of Luke's FTL reflexes due to powerscaling



Luke has done it to turbolasers himself directly fucking 35 years ago in-universe, get over yourself.



> now for the other ones i demanded....



Your demands mean absolutely nothing given your lack of credibility and subjectivity playing into this match.



> *snip*



Hi, absolutely weakling Force-Users even from the movies have borderline hypersonic reflexes/reaction time even without their precognition helping them out and one bottom barrel Jedi Padawan deflected hypersonic sharpnel being accelerated by a blast in the first Republic Commando novel with just her reflexes.

Oh, here's Darth Nihilus again to say hi.






Luke > Nihilus.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

Rashou said:


> IIt's less difficult to make someone think that they can't move or make them see something that isn't there (or don't see something that is there) than to actually wipe out their thought process, so are there any examples of the Force doing the latter?



I just want to utterly destroy the claim, if I haven't already, that Force Users can't completely fuck up and wipe out thought processes



			
				The Last Command said:
			
		

> He barked another laugh; and then, without warning, turned deadly serious. "He does not understand, Jedi Skywalker," he said earnestly. "Not Grand Admiral Thrawn—not any of them. The true power of the Jedi is not in these simple tricks of matter and energy. The true might of the Jedi is that we alone of all those in the galaxy have the power to grow beyond ourselves. To extend ourselves into all the reaches of the universe."
> 
> Luke glanced at Mara, got a shrug and puzzled look in return. "We don't understand, either," he told C'baoth. "What do you mean?"
> 
> ...





			
				TLC said:
			
		

> And then, without any warning, it all went dark. Not loneliness, not the way it had been. But a sort of emptiness...
> 
> By and by, he felt his head being roughly lifted by his chin. C'baoth was there, in a way, staring into his eyes. "General Covell!" the Master's voice thundered. Thundered strangely, too. Covell could hear it, but it wasn't really there. Not like it should have been. "Can you hear me?"
> 
> ...





			
				TLC again said:
			
		

> "You think C'baoth did something to Covell?" Pellaeon asked quietly.
> 
> "I see no other likely explanation," Thrawn said.* "My guess is that our beloved Jedi Master was trying to take over Covell's mind, perhaps even replacing entire sections of it with his own.* When they hit the ysalamir bubble and he lost that direct contact, there wasn't enough of Covell left to keep him alive for long."


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Shadows of the Empire pg.08 said:
			
		

> The lights under the canopy were dim; he could barely see the stranded-steel line. The carnival was done for the night, the acrobats and dewbacks and jesters long asleep. The crowds had gone home, and he was alone; alone here with the tightrope. It was quiet, the only sound the creak of the syn tent fabric as it cooled in the arms of the Tatooine summer night. The hot desert day gave up its heat quickly, and it was cold enough outside the tent to need a jacket. The smell of the dewbacks drifted up to where he perched, and mingled with that of his own sweat.
> 
> *A guard whose mind had accepted Luke's mental command to allow him inside the giant tent stood watch at the entrance, blind now to his presence. A Jedi skill, that kind of control, but another one he had only begun to learn.*





			
				Shadows of the Empire pg.216-217 said:
			
		

> No. Put those thoughts away. Remember that the Force is with you. You can do this. He took another breath, let half of it out, and allowed the Force to connect him to the mind of the guard in the hall. The sensation was strange, as it always was. It was not as if he were really in two places at once, but more as if there were a part of his own mind that was somehow not quite connected, not quite accessible. A kind of muzzy feeling.
> 
> *Luke became aware that the guard's feet hurt, that he needed to visit a refresher, that he was tired of standing here holding a blaster rifle, watching a meadle0blasted door when there was no way anybody could get through it, no way---"Open the door. "
> 
> ...





			
				Shadows of the Empire pg.288 said:
			
		

> The Luke-sized lieutenant frowned as he entered the stall, Luke right behind him. *"What are you talking about, I don't see any uh---? What...?"
> 
> This last was uttered as Luke used the Force to take control of the man's thoughts. You'd think a crack trooper in the service of the Empire would have had a stronger mind than this guy did. Then again, if he did, he probably wouldn't be in the Imperial military, he'd be working for the Alliance...Luke ordered the man to strip, then have a seat and a nice long nap.*





			
				Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor pg.300-301 said:
			
		

> Linked through Kar to Cronal, through Cronal to the Shadow Crown, and through the Crown's ancient powers of Sith alchemy to every Melter mind in every scrap of meltmassif in the galaxy, Luke had shone upon them with the light of the Force. This light had drawn them as moonlight draws a shadowmoth, and they found that its inexhaustible flood could fill them to overflowing. Never again would they feed upon light; there would never be the need. They would forever shine with light of their own.
> 
> And so they came out from every place the Dark had put them.
> 
> ...



Dot dot fucking dot. And all these feats occur between after Episode 5 and six months at the conclusion of Episode 6.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> Dot dot fucking dot. And all these feats occur between after Episode 5 and six months at the conclusion of Episode 6.



Yes, to Stormtroopers. What mental resistance did you expect?


----------



## SasuOna (Jul 30, 2010)

IDK Luke killed 1000 storm troopers with a thought(although very impressive) is in no way similar to mind raping someone who has a book. 
Its like your saying playing basketball with amateurs is equivalent to playing in the NBA finals.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Yes, to Stormtroopers. What mental resistance did you expect?



whoop-dee-fucking do, so what 

it accurately displays his ability to mentally dominate and nothing there even remotely says it can't work on those with stronger minds 

I've already put out quotes that display mass-mindfucking, and a guy who was replacing sections of someone else's mind with his own


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Yes, to Stormtroopers. What mental resistance did you expect?



Woah sport, stop showing off how little you understand how telepathy works. It's painful to see you making the same flawed and countered claims which are  just...ridiculous.

I already posted the passage of Luke doing so to UnuThul, you know a high-tier Force-User who controls the entire Force power and sensitivity of the Killik race that numbered in the billions, at minimum.

Now stop with the arguments from ignorance.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

didn't C'baoth also manage to take control of Pellaeon for a bit 

the latter is someone who I'd hardly consider 'weak-minded'


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

He took complete control over the minds and thoughts of every crew member, officer, trooper, ect...outside of the Ysalamari Force Bubble protecting Thrawn, Pealleon, and a few bridge officers casually.

And then there's Vader casually reprogramming Nick Rostu's memories and mind despite the latter's insane willpower easily with the Force at the start of the Coruscant Nights trilogy.


----------



## pikachuwei (Jul 30, 2010)

TWF said:


> Woah sport, stop showing off how little you understand how telepathy works. It's painful to see you making the same flawed and countered claims which are  just...ridiculous.
> 
> I already posted the passage of Luke doing so to UnuThul, you know a high-tier Force-User who controls the entire Force power and sensitivity of the Killik race that numbered in the billions, at minimum.
> 
> Now stop with the arguments from ignorance.



can u repost it, i think i missed the passage.


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Jul 30, 2010)

This thread still lives and no one has come to an agreement. Shocking.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

I just wanted to fucking bury the whole 'lol Force-users can't mind-rape the strong willed' for good 

that shit is going to fucking stay six feet under


----------



## Xelloss (Jul 30, 2010)

ehh I already give up to this since page 14, enying the popocorn


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I just wanted to fucking bury the whole 'lol Force-users can't mind-rape the strong willed' for good
> 
> that shit is going to fucking stay six feet under



Probably more annoying is people confusing a simple Jedi Mind Trick with actual telepathic domination


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 30, 2010)

the ones we see in the movies are mostly Force Suggestions anyway, basically telepathic love-taps

C'baoth, Palpatine, Vader, Luke, and so on go way further than that


----------



## Fang (Jul 30, 2010)

Revan implanting an entire language into the remaining Rakatans is also pretty impressive


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 31, 2010)

basch71 said:


> The fastest human psionics in Marvel, such as Xavier & Magneto, think closer to computer speeds. Guess whose mind works like a computer?



You can't equalise speed of thought, it's not quantifiable and the fiction has to define how fast. Xavier and Magneto especially Xavier is stronger than most psionics in his verse.

BTW TWF and CD have had to repost quotes atleast twice along with new ones, it's getting annoying especially when they've bolded the part to read. Starkiller's feat has been posted twice as has that crystal feat and I'm not even the one who had to post them. Luke doing such feats during the timeframe of the original Trilogy and shortly after mean current Luke>>>>>>>>That Luke.


----------



## MisterShin (Jul 31, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> You can't equalise speed of thought, it's not quantifiable and the fiction has to define how fast. Xavier and Magneto especially Xavier is stronger than most psionics in his verse.
> 
> BTW TWF and CD have had to repost quotes atleast twice along with new ones, it's getting annoying especially when they've bolded the part to read. Starkiller's feat has been posted twice as has that crystal feat and I'm not even the one who had to post them. Luke doing such feats during the timeframe of the original Trilogy and shortly after mean current Luke>>>>>>>>That Luke.



Accelerator speed of thought is at Least light speed, considering his mind is always doing calculations to redirect light and more (hence his albino appearence) . It could possibly be FTL considering his calculations are complete before light can touch him.  

Darkwing Accelerator no longer has to do calculations himself. I would also place Kakine in the same Thought Speed due to him and Accelerator being rival, both the Top Level 5's and almost Artificial Angels and being Unique and Aiwass being interested in them. 

Luke will die trying to mind rape Index, people trying to access Index mind are caused excruciating physical and mental pain. Also a human can store no more than 10,000 grimories out of over 100,000 this is because Index has Perfect Memory.


----------



## Rashou (Jul 31, 2010)

I was sold from the first quote on the Force's ability to truly mindrape, but with the massive amount of proof posted now I don't think anyone is standing up to Luke. Meaning the To Aru side can only possibly win if he doesn't mindrape right off the bat (is this a normal move for him) or if their ability works subconsciously or even without them having to think about it, but that would only work for a double KO at best. 

The only person I know of in To Aru who has a subconscious ability is Vent of the Front with my limited knowledge of To Aru, but I'm not sure how effective trying to deprive Luke of oxygen would be (if I understand her power correctly). 

Also, as an aside and to satisfy my curiosity, can Luke fight as a Force ghost?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 31, 2010)

Fight as a force ghost? Well force ghosts like Exar Kun can still screw with people, think he was using the force drain. Luke could probably influence things as a force ghost not sure, have'nt read as much EU as CD and TWF.

EDIT Does'nt Exar's own origins involve force ghosts influencing things?


----------



## Fang (Jul 31, 2010)

It took thousands of the Jedi and Republic warships to Force Light all of Yavin 4 just to trap Exar Kun's spirit at the end of his war with the Old Republic.

That still couldn't destroy him even though it ravaged the entire planet and wiped out the entire Massassi race.


----------



## Lord Genome (Jul 31, 2010)

I know little to nothing about either verses(i know more star wars than whatever this other verse is but only with the thrawn trilogy) but i just want to point things out to look useful



~Greed~ said:


> There is also the Book in Index's head which automatically has anyone holding a weapon kill themselves.......and luke always has a light saber and blaster on him. He kills himself. Just because he is in her presence.


 How does this work? And could Luke counter this if it is automaticlly?


Crimson Dragoon said:


> whoop-dee-fucking do, so what
> 
> it accurately displays his ability to mentally dominate and nothing there even remotely says it can't work on those with stronger minds


 Wouldnt this reasoning be a no limits fallacy? Im not sure if you or fang posted a page of Luke mind crushing a stronger mind cause twenty pages is a lot but just saying



~Greed~ said:


> It was also backed up when it was stated that one of the few possible ways to destroy the books was for Touma to touch them with Imagine Breaker. And again in novel 7 when it was stated that they could not be destroyed, with explict reason as to why they could not be destroyed.


 say what? if there are ways to destroy the books how is it that they cant be destroyed? thats contadicting yourself


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 31, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> Wouldnt this reasoning be a no limits fallacy? Im not sure if you or fang posted a page of Luke mind crushing a stronger mind cause twenty pages is a lot but just saying



he could do it since he mentally affected tens of thousands during his newbie years and is currently more powerful than Palpatine, who mindwiped billions to make people forget about the Lusankya SSD 

you'd need to have really really good mental resistance feats to avoid getting fucked over by Luke


----------



## Lord Genome (Jul 31, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> he could do it since he mentally affected tens of thousands during his newbie years and is currently more powerful than Palpatine, who mindwiped billions to make people forget about the Lusankya SSD
> 
> you'd need to have really really good mental resistance feats to avoid getting fucked over by Luke


 Ok i can go with that

but doesnt one of the characters have a feat of resisting a mindfuck that affected billions or something? its not as impressive as lukes but from what people are saying the character only needs to think to reality warp him away

wouldnt the resistance he has from the former feat give him enough time to do it?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jul 31, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> How does this work? And could Luke counter this if it is automaticlly?



I believe it just takes control of a person's body and has them kill them self.



> say what? if there are ways to destroy the books how is it that they cant be destroyed? thats contadicting yourself



It's a bit more complex then that. The only reason that Touma's Imagine Breaker can kill them is because of the fact that it "kills" anything supernatural. Meaning the books won't have a chance to turn into a magical code and regenerate.

That is just Imagine Breakers ability. 



			
				For Imagine Breaker said:
			
		

> Touma's ability is Imagine Breaker (幻想殺し,Gensou Goroshi, "Imagine Killer"), an ability which negates all supernatural powers, including effects of magic, psychic, and divine powers (which may also include his good luck and God's blessing according to Index).



But even if the books are burned or vaporized, atomized or whatever it won't effect them.




TWF said:


> I already posted it.


No you didn't, unless it was in the beginning of the thread, and I?m not looking back that far.


> Yes, he is.


No.



> Your grasping at straws if you can't see the point of what I said.



Your not even making any sense here. You said that the books can not be destroyed, and afterwords you said Luke>black holes. What the hell does that have to do with anything. Your claiming I'm grasping at straws? It seems to be the exact opposite.




> Your repeating a fucking rebuked argument because you have nothing else and everyone other than the four of you knows it.


It hasn't been rubunked, at all. The books in her head aren't getting destroyed, meaning index isn't getting mind raped.

And the four of us? in comparison to what, you and CD? Who exactly is on the winning side here?



> Argument ad verbosity isn't going to save you any face here.






> Wrong again.


Except I'm not.




> Still repeating yourself on a debunked argument.



About the Grimores being destroyed? You haven't debunked that argument.



> Everything when its utilized through telepathy.



What does it matter if he uses telepathy to create illusions?




> A shitty analogy. SW tech can't tell the difference between real tangible warships and Luke's illusions.



What does that matter? The same could be said for a camera and any other high class illusion.



> Have you watched any Star Wars movie, ever?


The last time I watched a star wars movie was several years ago. It's also been about 15 years since Ive seen one of the originals.



> Why the fuck do you think Vader killed Ozzel? He wanted Death Squadron to revert into real space just inside of the Hoth star system and snipe the shield generator so they couldn't impede the invasion force.



In english please? I don?t know any star wars terminology.



> We have repeated cases of objects being destroyed, atomized, or hit by a turbolaser before the visible component even touches it.
> 
> So get over it.



I don't see how this has anything to do with a Turbolaser's speed....



> No, you guys all did it quite a bit.



I did? I know the difference between Telepathy and Telekinesis. 



> Not really known, I want direct evidence. You know like the kind we showed for Palpatine and what Luke did to UnuThul.


Direct evidence isn't required in the OBD. Statements from reliable characters are perfectly fine, and always have been. It's not like Cell saying that he can blow up the solar system, or haruhi being omnipotent or anything like that. This was backed up in the story several times, and whole books were even centered around this issue. 

We accept Neuro(MTNN) being able to tank a nuke and bathe in 3 billion degree lava, we accept Negi being able to vaporize a 100 meter around rock even though it did not look anything close to 100 meters around. Why? Because these were statements from reliable characters, who have absolutely no reason to lie. It's the exact same thing in this case.


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## Fang (Jul 31, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> I believe it just takes control of a person's body and has them kill them self.



Cool not happening to Luke.



> But even if the books are burned or vaporized, atomized or whatever it won't effect them.



Not if their made psychically impotent.



> No you didn't, unless it was in the beginning of the thread, and I’m not looking back that far.



Not my problem.



> No.



Yes.



> *snip*



Your still grasping at straws here or your reading comprehension skills need work bad since your still missing the obvious point.



> It hasn't been rubunked, at all. The books in her head aren't getting destroyed, meaning index isn't getting mind raped.



It has been since you have repeatedly been demurred on the fact that you have not a single shred of evidence point to her having encountered any telepath on Luke's scale.

Ever.
At.
All.

Stop wanking with the no limits arguments.



> And the four of us? in comparison to what, you and CD? Who exactly is on the winning side here?



And more than that and I'm not the one crying about trying to use popularity as a means here to win a thread, so what is your argument now?



> Except I'm not.



You are.



> About the Grimores being destroyed? You haven't debunked that argument.



Prove it.



> What does it matter if he uses telepathy to create illusions?[/quote[
> 
> Think.
> 
> ...


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## Abigail (Jul 31, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> *The books can not be destroyed.*. Can't counter the argument? Then concession accepted.


Hi, no limits fallacy. How are you?



> *The books can not be destroyed.*.


No limits fallacy plus ad nauseum now.

Concession accepted.


As for mixing up Telepathy and TK.



Xelloss said:


> also the mind rape on Starwars is done by Telekinesis


Yeah.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 31, 2010)

Abigail said:


> Hi, no limits fallacy. How are you?


Except it isn't. 



> No limits fallacy plus ad nauseum now.


For one, It isn't no limits. Obviously if it's reality warped out of existence it would be destroyed. If it is hit with a antimagic attack like Imagine Breaker it is also destroyed. But everyone here is claiming that Luke is going to mindrape the books, and that isn't happening. The books can't even be burned to ash to be destroyed. It'll just turn into a mass of magic and pass on it's knowledge.

And I'm repeating myself since TWF has been repeating himself without looking at the quotes I posted for several pages now. I'm not going to keep coming up with new arguments when the person I'm debating hasn't come up with new arguments.



> Concession accepted.


No.



> As for mixing up Telepathy and TK.


Ok, What does that matter? It was obvious what he meant. Xellos's first language also isn't english, so It was a simple mistake.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 31, 2010)

TWF said:


> Cool not happening to Luke.


 Care to give a reason why?



> Not if their made psychically impotent.



That isn't possible, as I said before.



> Yes.


Now your just repeating yourself.




> Your still grasping at straws here or your reading comprehension skills need work bad since your still missing the obvious point.



Your snipping all my quotes out of your post, I don't even know what was written here.



> It has been since you have repeatedly been demurred on the fact that you have not a single shred of evidence point to her having encountered any telepath on Luke's scale.
> 
> Ever.
> At.
> All.



Except it doesn't matter. What don't you get about the books not being able to be destroyed? Original Grimoires are not destroyable. gave evidnce why, and you are dismissing it as a character fallable statement when whole volumes and storylines were centered around this issue.


> And more than that and I'm not the one crying about trying to use popularity as a means here to win a thread, so what is your argument now?



You were the one bring up how many people on your side first



> What does it matter if he uses telepathy to create illusions?[/quote[
> 
> I did. Unless they are some internal illusions, kind of like hallucinations, then I don't really see what you are getting at.
> 
> ...


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## Lord Genome (Jul 31, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> I believe it just takes control of a person's body and has them kill them self.


 Could you post a quote of it being used? Id like to see how its used.




> It's a bit more complex then that. The only reason that Touma's Imagine Breaker can kill them is because of the fact that it "kills" anything supernatural. Meaning the books won't have a chance to turn into a magical code and regenerate.
> 
> That is just Imagine Breakers ability.


 If i recall you mentioned its one of the "few" ways it can be destroyed, but also said it cannot be destroyed. Why is it that Luke cant destroy them but other things can and what are the ways it can be?


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 31, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> Could you post a quote of it being used? Id like to see how its used.


 Here ya go.



			
				From Volume 7 Chapter 2 said:
			
		

> “A magic book cannot be burned. Especially for the special class of original magic books, the words, paragraphs, chapters will be converted into a magical code, using small amounts of energy released by nature or lifeforce as its power, like an automatically powered magic spell. So the most we can do is to seal it.”
> 
> “Do you know what kind of thing is an original magic book? Do you know that one can’t destroy an original through any means?”
> 
> ...



This was backed up several times throughout the story. Some major issues in some of the most important books even revolved around this issue.

Also mind you, that Ursula did not Know about Touma's Imagine Breaker, which is the only way to destroy a original magic book.



> If i recall you mentioned its one of the "few" ways it can be destroyed, but also said it cannot be destroyed. Why is it that Luke cant destroy them but other things can and what are the ways it can be?


So far there are 2 ways to destroy a Grimore, but only one of them works on the high class "Original Grimores" that are in Index's head.

One way is for Touma to touch it with his Imagine Breaker, and the other which only works on crap books is to write in a "vaccine", which makes the book kill itself. The second way won't work since all of Index's are Originals. But If Luke has some type of antimagic attack like Touma's IB then he would be able to destroy the Grimores.

Mind you that even if it were possible to write a vaccine for a original Grimore(and it isn't), Luke would not be able to do it, since the Grimores would be completely foreign to him, and it takes mass amounts of knowledge about the books and the magic inside them just to write a vaccine for them.


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## Lord Genome (Jul 31, 2010)

Thanks but i was actually hoping for a quote for the book making a weapon user kill themselves actually

or any book being used


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 31, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> Thanks but i was actually hoping for a quote for the book making a weapon user kill themselves actually


 
Oh, I thought you were talking about the explanation for the books being unkillable. I don't have a translation for "the rabbit and the moon", or "Time over life and death" books, since those novels are not translated. I think it took place in the novel SS2 or novel SS. I know that Etzali used this spell. Let me go check, since I believe a small part of the side stories are translated.



> or any book being used


Ill see if I can find one. I could provide a link to index using Saint Goerges sanctuary, which fires a light speed beam, and erases time and space. but it would be from the manga. Is that alright?


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## Lord Genome (Jul 31, 2010)

If you can thats good since that ability would be a clear cut way for him to win maybe if its automaticlly like you say

Yeah thats fine as long as how they are used in the manga is the same as the novel


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 31, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> If you can thats good since that ability would be a clear cut way for him to win maybe if its automatically like you say


 
Alright, I'll post it when  I get home tonight then. Some kids just came into my store, so I have to deal with them at the moment.



> Yeah thats fine as long as how they are used in the manga is the same as the novel


I don't scans or translation for the book that has people kill themselves. That one is novel only, and it's untranslated(I just checked). I'll post the scans of the ones that were used when I get home tonight though.


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## Fang (Jul 31, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Care to give a reason why?



The burden of proof is still on *you.*



> That isn't possible, as I said before.



Refer to above response with actual tangible evidence.



> Now your just repeating yourself.



Pot to kettle.



> Your snipping all my quotes out of your post, I don't even know what was written here.



Then go back and look.



> Except it doesn't matter. What don't you get about the books not being able to be destroyed? Original Grimoires are not destroyable. gave evidnce why, and you are dismissing it as a character fallable statement when whole volumes and storylines were centered around this issue.



That isn't my problem. We've shown you the scale of telepathy and mind control in Star Wars, you haven't shown anything capable of stopping or countering it.

We posted evidence, we posted quotes and excerpt from the novels and comics of their feats.

You have nothing, its clear-cut here that hte Grimories will not stop Luke's psychic attacks.

At all.



> You were the one bring up how many people on your side first



Wrong.



> > I'm repeating myself because you aparenetly haven't read the quotes I posted until the very last part of your post, where you gave a argument for them.
> 
> 
> *Your repeating a fucking rebuked argument because you have nothing else and everyone other than the four of you knows it.*





> I did. Unless they are some internal illusions, kind of like hallucinations, then I don't really see what you are getting at.



His illusions works on the exact same principle as his telepathy: invasive and internally on others. Meaning again you have nothing.



> I openly admitted that I didn't know anything about Star Wars. Though you really shouldn't be talking, since you obviously know nothing about ToAru......Considering you call it ToARU for some unknown reason.



When did I claim any knowledge on ToAru or whatever the fuck its called?



> I don't see what your trying to get at. Then again, I saw some evidence that CD posted that shows that Jedi can react to light speed attacks with their precog. But Luke's precog isn't helping him much when right at the beginning of the match he is going to have to deal with multiple things, including killing himself with his own weapons, which is automatic and something you haven't proven he can resist, Ars Magna, light speed lasers flaying everywhere, destroyed space and time surrounding Index, and much more.



Luke's speed of thought has already been shown to surpass lightspeed, so its a moot point. And nothing Ars Manga doing with telepathy is going to beat Luke's mental or psychic defenses or power.

Ever.

He's going to crush her mind and the Grimories psychically like their nothing so Ars Manga isn't a variable still at all changing the outcome of this match.



> While direct Evidence is better then any other form of evidence, it the only type of evidence we accept. Statements from reliable characters are fine, as is word of God in some cases.



Concession accepted.



> You don't like it? Well then we can take this to the Meta and see what everyone else thinks.



Your not fooling anyone here, especially with that TP thread you made earlier go ahead, attempting to use popularity consensus doesn't matter to anyone with objective views on how this match concludes. 



> *snip*



I don't care for your excuses and mindset. 

I'm still waiting for you to post a shred of evidence directly that the Grimories will make shred of difference against Luke's telepathy.

Now.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2010)

Looks like the ToArutards are getting butthurt about the fact that they're getting their asses royally handed to them, and have to resort to no - limits fallacies. How pathetic.

"The books can't be destroyed." Well, I guess that's it, it means they are completely invincible to anything in fiction.

This is like arguing that Itachi's Susanoo can tank the Death Star superlaser.

Show evidence of them resisting mindrape on the scale of what Luke can do or you've got nothing.



pikachuwei said:


> ive read the shatterpoint novel with windu from my school library (yay)
> 
> and shatterpoint isnt 100% foolproof, windu failed to see his own shatterpoint and thus was killed.



Luke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windu



~Greed~ said:


> I mean all she has to do is think about him being dead and he will die. Ars magna is just flat out reality warping.



Then he kills her as a Force Spirit.



KumogakureRaikage said:


> I have a few questions that I'm hoping someone could answer.
> 
> The first is, would mind fuck work on Kazakiri since technically she doesn't have an actual brain. When she was attacked and part of her skull was cracked open it showed that she was completely hollow inside. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of mindfuck, or would it still work regardless?



If it can think, it has a mind. If it has a mind, it can be mindraped.



~Greed~ said:


> And index can think about killing him right off the bat.
> 
> 
> 
> It is thought speed. As soon as Index sees luke she can kill him.



Good thing he can make himself completely invisible and undetectable, then. She wouldn't know what hit her.



~Greed~ said:


> What is the fastest luke has mind raped someone with a brain equivalent to Index's? Because all Index has to do here is think about him dying or something else harmful.



Here's a neat idea: Use Flow Walking to send messages to himself in the past with the update on his mindrape, so if he dies the info gets sent back in time and every time he tries to mindrape her it becomes more and more efficient until he does it fast enough.



> He is going to have to mind rape 103,000 books here. Actually, has Luke ever mind raped something equivalent to a  book or library? Because that is all index is, she is just a living library, with a computer program set to run the books. He is also going to have to break through all the defense systems and not get mind raped by the books themselves for trying to break into her head.



He raped a telepathic hive mind of billions of individuals.



basch71 said:


> Ars Magna works at thought speed but it's not a mental attack, it's reality warping. The smallest scale would be human size, such as killing the person, lifting them into the air and rip the skin off their flesh or bringing a weapon out of thin air, amplifying your abilities such as speed, teleportation, or invincibility (merely think what you want and it'll happen).
> 
> The largest scale was a whole skyscraper was being destroyed and with Ars Magna, the destruction was reversed (literally, collapsing building came back up) like nothing happened.
> 
> The only limit I can say is human limitations like knowledge. Such as Aureolus didn't know what To Aru verse Vamps looked like and such and couldn't just create one. Although Index being a library of magic books, wouldn't have that problem.



LOL@ skyscraper level. This is the trump card you're peddling? Luke uses precog and never gets hit by it.



pikachuwei said:


> ^now that i think about it, Greed is right. Turbolasers =/= lightspeed. is there alternative sources for proving that Luke has lightspeed reactions?
> 
> and according to the sources a low end broadside from a ISD is 6E19 watts or 14000 megatons or sumthing... compared with accelerator's 1E26/2 exatons... oO
> 
> but god 1E30+ for deathstar is scary.



A venator generates around 1e24 watts. An ISD is significantly more powerful.



Rashou said:


> -I don't fully understand the terminology, so forgive me if I'm off base here, but I keep seeing stuff about Luke attacking as a Force spirit or spiritual presence which makes me think that even if his physical body was destroyed... Couldn't he keep fighting a spirit anyway (making stuff like the sun teleport and possibly Ars Magna kind of useless)?



I don't see why not, Exar Kun could do it.



Crimson Dragoon said:


> I just wanted to fucking bury the whole 'lol Force-users can't mind-rape the strong willed' for good
> 
> that shit is going to fucking stay six feet under



Good job. I also get pissed off by that misconception.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 1, 2010)

> LOL@ skyscraper level. This is the trump card you're peddling? Luke uses precog and never gets hit by it.



You're assuming he can pre-cog a free form Reality Warping ability? Got proof to back that up?


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2010)

Precog = predict future events. If this ability actually causes anything to happen, he can see it.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 1, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Precog = predict future events. If this ability actually causes anything to happen, he can see it.



He can see the events. But it'll happen at a thought however and anything could happen.

But like I said time and time again. Has he dealt with Reality Warping such as this and has he either resisted and (or) outright ignored it? If so, I would concede with no problem. I just want straight answers.

Even then, there's Index's auto defenses such as that ability which has anyone holding a weapon automatically kill themselves.


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2010)

His Precognition and reflexes are linked.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 1, 2010)

The reality warping aside he will very likely go first. Precog+force enhanced reactions says he will. The auto ability has never worked on someone like Luke and as mentioned he can just fight as a force ghost or use flow walking. Why are you rehashing old arguments, the reality warping would work if he does'nt go first or can't stop it in time but otherwise he'll just go first and mindrape which no one has countered outside no limits Fallacies.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2010)

basch71 said:


> He can see the events. But it'll happen at a thought however and anything could happen.
> 
> But like I said time and time again. Has he dealt with Reality Warping such as this and has he either resisted and (or) outright ignored it? If so, I would concede with no problem. I just want straight answers.



If it can only affect an area the size of a skyscraper, he can just not get hit with it.



> Even then, there's Index's auto defenses such as that ability which has anyone holding a weapon automatically kill themselves.



Which would be a low level mindfuck that would do nothing to Luke.


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## Xelloss (Aug 1, 2010)

Is not a compulsion of mind affecting effect, still I agree if he is fast enough and with precog he would be to much, I dont see him taking on the high tiers, but then again they dont have the reaction of defensive feats to backup any claim, I do feel luke is getting a lot of powerscaling and a bit on wanking here also.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 1, 2010)

Powerscaling is applicable in the OBD, you do it too and I'm fairly certain someone here did it with the To aru side. The quotes were posted, what is being wanked? His psychic abilities?His reactions?


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2010)

Luke is pretty much the top dog in every conceivable way out of Force-Users with exception to Zenoma Sekot. 

The only Force-Users that compare to him overall are: 

- Darth Revan: He was capable of implementing an entire language easily into the entire Rakatan race's remnants 

- Darth Nihilus: causing wounds in the Force and eating entire worlds and their populations as well as sapping people's very well just by being in proximity to his presence or influence

- UnuThul: Raynar being powered by the entire Killick race and dominating other Force-Users across the entire galaxy 

- Darth Sidious: telepathically dominating billions to trillions of people on Coruscant so he could hide the Luskanya as well as the obvious Force Storms and massive prescience/clairvoyance powers 

- Exar Kun: inventing the double-lightsaber/lightstaff and requiring thousands of Jedi and warships to wipe him out just physically and could still manifest his spirit thousands of years later through his will

- Naga Sadow: Can cause massive solar flares even without using the Sith Corsair D

- Darth Caedus: Luke's nephew Jacen Solo and the most powerful of the Solo children (shit load of exotic Force techniques like blood trails, Flow-Walking, Shatterpoints, White Current illusion techniques, telepathy, ect...) he's a Skywalker by bloodline


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2010)

TWF said:


> Luke is pretty much the top dog in every conceivable way out of Force-Users with exception to Zenoma Sekot.
> 
> The only Force-Users that compare to him overall are:
> 
> ...



You forgot someone. But that's forgivable, as the obvious meaning is that he does not merely compare to Luke, he completely destroys him in all areas.


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2010)

Ludo Kreesh?


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2010)

TWF said:


> Ludo Kreesh?



No, Skippy the droid.

EDIT: BTW, I vaguely remember that Kueller also mindfucked/drained an entire planet. Is that true?


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2010)

Oh I see. You mean that Ragnos guy.

Its been a long ass time since I've read TNR (and I don't own it because it was weird) but according to Wookieepedia he wiped out the population of Pydyr and Force drained each person's death to increase his power. 

And apparently at the end of Luke and Kueller's final duel, Luke could sense that he was amping his power from all over the galaxy feeding off the dark side from the death's he's caused and Luke's own emotions in the Force..

Not sure if that's top tier material.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2010)

It's more supporting evidence.

BRB, Watching Stargate Universe


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## MisterShin (Aug 1, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Powerscaling is applicable in the OBD, you do it too and I'm fairly certain someone here did it with the To aru side. The quotes were posted, what is being wanked? His psychic abilities?His reactions?


Using powerscaling Index has FTL speed of thought.
Accelerator mind completes vector redirect calculations before light can touch him.
Index > Accelerater

Outside of powerscaling i dont think she has any feats, but she does have Perfect Memory which would naturally give faster thinking in certain areas.

I wish i had Perfect Memory i would get straight A's in Exams and never have to revise. LOL

p.s. Vent of the front, divine punishment silences luke.


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2010)

Yeah too bad none of that is happening.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 1, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Looks like the ToArutards are getting butthurt about the fact that they're getting their asses royally handed to them, and have to resort to no - limits fallacies. How pathetic.
> 
> "The books can't be destroyed." Well, I guess that's it, it means they are completely invincible to anything in fiction.



Um, I actually gave out ways they could be killed, several times infact. Reality warping the books out of existence will destroy them, Wiping out the magic from the books will also kill them. The problem with the books is that the destroying the actual book means nothing, since it will just turn into a magical code and pass it's knowledge onto someone that way. But like I said, if you kill the magic then they die. Burning the books to ash doesn't even do anything.



> Then he kills her as a Force Spirit.


Ars magna wipes out his existence then. It was already stated it could do that. Izzard was about to cast the "Fade into nothingness" spell on Touma, but was stopped halfway through by Himegami.

But you know what, I give up. I have no way to win against people who claim that Luke can mindrape a being which can be wiped out of existence. I mean for gods sake, that is like claiming that luke can mindrape freaking ZeedMillenniummon. I still think that Aiwass would just regen whatever he thinks with after he gets mindraped, regenerating a piece of himself isn't exactly hard to do when he can regen from being wiped out of existence. But again, I give up, This debate is going nowhere.


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## Gundam Meister (Aug 1, 2010)

Since this thread is going nowhere Greed could you lock it


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2010)

telepathic domination has nothing to do with physical attacks, you can beat a reality warper by mind-fucking them.

also i would love to see Aiwass or whoever have anything to compare to ZeedMilleniumon or the Force itself.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 1, 2010)

TWF said:


> also i would love to see Aiwass or whoever have anything to compare to ZeedMilleniumon or the Force itself.



I used ZeedMilleniumon as a comparison because I couldn't think of anyone else that can get wiped out of existence and come back like nothing happened, atleast off the top of my head.


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## Abigail (Aug 1, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Um, I actually gave out ways they could be killed, several times infact.



You've also claimed that it can't, several times infact.

So, either you were lying or back peddling like a champ.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 1, 2010)

Abigail said:


> You've also claimed that it can't, several times infact.
> 
> So, either you were lying or back peddling like a champ.



I just gave 2 ways to kill the book. One is a antimagic attack, which luke doesn't have, and the other is reality warping, which is pretty obvious. 

Obviously they aren't completely unkillable. otherwise they may as well be omnipotent books(lol).


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## Fang (Aug 1, 2010)

Or you know, using the Force since Force-Users can do something similar like wipe another Force-User's connection or abilities completely.

Nomi Sunrider did it to Ulic.


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## pikachuwei (Aug 2, 2010)

TWF said:


> Or you know, using the Force since Force-Users can do something similar like wipe another Force-User's connection or abilities completely.
> 
> Nomi Sunrider did it to Ulic.



force =/= antimagic or reality warping

otherwise we could equate force with magic

and FUZE and accelerator would have a field day with luke


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 2, 2010)

Luke has the special ability severe force that allows light side users to disconnect others from the force? Nomi Sunrider was one of the few that could do that, now I have'nt read as much EU as you so he could know that. But as for the magic=force thing even if we did equalise them saying anti-magic abilities would work on someone like Luke is laughable unless you have a feat of it working on someone of that level, in short no limits Fallacy.


----------

