# Madara vs. Itachi (Taijutsu only)



## Nikushimi (Jul 25, 2013)

*Location:* Uchiha Hideout Throne Room
*Distance:* Itachi's sitting on the throne when Madara walks through the front door.
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character; Madara wants his throne back.
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Both alive, obviously. Itachi isn't sick, so just treat him like Edo Itachi minus infinite chakra and regen.
-No Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, or weapons.
-Both restricted to three-tomoe Sharingan, since anything more is pretty much pointless without Jutsu.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Bad idea making this after the drop of that new episode. 

Honestly Itachi should keep up just fine for a while, but Madara's background has me thinking that he's mastered all areas of the Shinobi arts, including Taijutsu. Plus, I like Madara here just for  the fact that it's Madara, a dominant Top-Tier. I would consider Itachi a weaker version of him.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

Ha, spite thread. 

Going with Madara on this.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I would consider Itachi a weaker version of him.



Funny, I consider Itachi a more skilled & smarter version of Madara. 

With legendary items.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Of course you do. No surprises there. 

Itachi has what over Madara, Genjutsu?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Of course you do. No surprises there.



Right on. ​


Rocky said:


> Itachi has what over Madara, Genjutsu?



Madara basically dicks around and pumps huge chakra into overpowering jutsu. Aside from that, there's not much to be impressed with concerning his battles.

Itachi has superior feats and hype in molding ninjutsu, using weapons, genjutsu, fūinjutsu, medical jutsu, being perceptive in battle, creating effective strategies, etc. ​


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## Ersa (Jul 25, 2013)

Honestly on pure taijutsu alone I'd say they are equal.

Both have good feats/speed/reflexes.

In which case Madara will simply outlast.


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## Ashi (Jul 25, 2013)

I'd say ssauke is a weaker madara

OT: Madara stomps even harder since the new episode


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

In after anime feats.


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## Ersa (Jul 25, 2013)

Anime Itachi can casually create craters by kicking the ground.

That's Tsunade level strength right there


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Anime Itachi can casually create craters by kicking the ground.
> 
> That's Tsunade level strength right there



Everybody knows _healthy_ Itachi has 5/5 strength, and 5/5 everything else.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 25, 2013)

Honestly Itachi rapes. I knew madara is op but we have never seen him fight high lvl ninja in taijustu one on one before he mostly just owned fodder and nuked the kages.

Itachi was able to casually take on 7-sword style bee and Kcm naruto in CQC at the same time at one point.

Madara simplely does not have the feats to beat him.


Even tho it was eipc and legendary watching him fight.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi has superior feats and hype in molding ninjutsu



Madara "molded" a Meteor out of thin air. 

Besides, Madara has superior Ninjutsu application in battle. 



> using weapons



Blocking Bijuu Mode Datclone miniature nuclear bomb with fan> Fast Shuriken. 

Anime Madara also soloes. 



> genjutsu



Dat unrivaled Kyuubi control. 

Plus the Kinjutsu, of course.



> fūinjutsu



Fūjutsu Kyūin vs. Totsuka? That's debatable. 



> medical jutsu



Neither have any Medical Ninjutsu. Madara can probably bring back people from the dead though, so....



> Being perceptive in battle



Madara was able to instantly deduce a 5-man complex combination attack from the Gokage and instantly counter. 

Sure beats "giant orb in sky. Orb sucking up everything. Attack orb." 





> creating effective strategies



I agree. Itachi can definitely take Madara in Chess.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 25, 2013)

why so many itachi threads anyway itachi is better at taijutsus


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## αce (Jul 25, 2013)

I don't know how people say that Madara isn't skilled and simply uses overpowered abilities. He was killing elite senju's before he had a single tomoe in his sharingan. Unless Katon's are suddenly overpowered, the obvious conclusion is that he was simply highly skilled. Yes, Itachi has better strategic feats - but that's to be expected since the only fights we have seen from Madara are him dicking around with the Kage and him battling Hashirama (which _did_ involve on the fly adaptations by _both_ parties). Comparing the two given the disparity in the type of fights they had is apples and oranges.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

> "giant orb in the sky. Orb sucking in everything. Attack orb."



I lol'd at this.


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## narutoish (Jul 25, 2013)

As of now itachi wins, he has some good taijutsu feats unlike madara.


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## Kai (Jul 25, 2013)

Even if Itachi started landing some physical hits on Madara, it's a tough order to sell that Madara would even be harmed underneath his armor.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Bad idea making this after the drop of that new episode.



I was thinking the same thing, to be perfectly honest with you... 

Oh well; I'm a gambler.



Rocky said:


> Itachi has what over Madara, Genjutsu?



Itachi's more versatile in that area but Madara's Genjutsu is obviously stronger.

I think Itachi's biggest advantage over Madara is his intelligence/skill.



Kai said:


> Even if Itachi started landing some physical hits on Madara, it's a tough order to sell that Madara would even be harmed underneath his armor.



Madara's face ain't armored.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I think Itachi's biggest advantage over Madara is his intelligence/skill.



I actually think Madara rivals Itachi in that area, again because of his background.

War and battle are all Madara knows; the raw experience should definitely compensate for any I.Q. points Itachi may have over him. This is especially true if we consider how many times the most powerful Shinobi _ever_ was Madara's opponent.


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## Jagger (Jul 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Madara's face ain't armored.


Madara: "You lack the necessary wood to beat me, you Senju dog."


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## Winchester Gospel (Jul 25, 2013)

αce and Rocky have the right idea.

Itachi wasn't sorted into the highest tier of taijutsu fighters in the databook. That's enough to make me think that he loses to Madara, as shinobi on the level of Hashirama and his rival are prime candidates for receiving perfect databook scores and in each and every one of the shinobi arts.

When comparing feats between two characters that have fought separate battles and played completely different roles in the story, you've always got to stop and ask yourself, "If these characters switched places, would either of them struggle to replicate the feats of the other?" If there's enough else in the manga to substantiate the idea that it may not be so, you can bridge the gap between the characters without waiting for empirical comparisons between the two that will in all likelihood never come.

Itachi was no doubt one of the most gifted members born into the Uchiha clan, but Madara was _the_ greatest, and there's nothing in my mind that raises doubt over his ability to replicate the skill and efficacy of Itachi's taijutsu and intellect to a level suitable enough that his overall superiority wouldn't allow him to triumph. The difference in perception between the two is as much the result of Madara just being so powerful, and having been placed into such grandiose battles that he's never found much use for Itachi-style finesse, as it is anything else.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I actually think Madara rivals Itachi in that area, again because of his background.
> 
> War and battle are all Madara knows; the raw experience should definitely compensate for any I.Q. points Itachi may have over him. This is especially true if we consider how many times the most powerful Shinobi _ever_ was Madara's opponent.



Jiraiya has a shit ton more combat experience that Madara or Itachi but he's confirmed to be less intelligent than Itachi.

Experience is definitely important, but you also have to take into account a character's genius/IQ, and in this regard, Itachi far exceeds the norm.

I don't think Madara compares to his intelligence at all, really.



Jagger said:


> Madara: "You lack the necessary wood to beat me, you Senju dog."



Itachi is the closest one to Hashirama. Madara should get a boner for him too.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Jiraiya has a shit ton more combat experience that Madara.



Does he now?



> Experience is definitely important, but you also have to take into account a character's genius/IQ, and in this regard, Itachi far exceeds the norm


.

I did take it into account. 

Intelligence is a broad field. Madara fought Senju from childhood till maturity. That's...an insane amount of first hand experience in combat. He's going to know things about battle that Itachi doesn't,  or couldn't, simply by virtue of that.

Take Madara out of the battlefield, and Itachi bends him over in a battle of intellect. I do agree, Itachi's feats against Sasuke make him a better strategist than Madara's shown to be. Honestly though, I don't see Itachi outsmarting a legendary war general in actual combat, especially when 95% of Itachi's arsenal are things Madara has seen, like clones, Katon, Genjutsu, and the Mangekyou.


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## αce (Jul 25, 2013)

> Jiraiya has a shit ton more combat experience that Madara



What the fuck is this?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 26, 2013)

Madara wins.

Greater strength and vast pool of chakra


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## Vice (Jul 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Funny, I consider Itachi a more skilled & smarter version of Madara.
> 
> With legendary items.



Well, of course. You're a fantard.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 26, 2013)

Vice said:


> Well, of course. You're a fantard.



No, I'm rubber.


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## Jagger (Jul 26, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Jiraiya has a shit ton more combat experience that Madara or Itachi but he's confirmed to be less intelligent than Itachi.


I wouldn't really say Jiraiya has way much more experience than Madara or the Uchiha has more than the Sannin, we can't even tell which one has more, they could be equal about it. 

Jiraiya went to countless dangerous missions and trained along with other two powerful shinobi, Madara was killing experienced Senju without activating his Sharingan while he was just a kid and literally spend all his life in war.


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## Stermor (Jul 26, 2013)

jiriaya and madara are both very intelligent combined with massive ammounts of experience.. 

that is always more dangerous then straight up inteligence.. 

but really for taijutsu itachi's best feats is not getting pasted by rm naruto.. while madara is not that bothered by a superior naruto.. 

madara wins this purely because there is a still a decent gap in physical stats..


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## BrokenBonds (Jul 26, 2013)

Battledromes should just be renamed "Itachi vs ___ with the following stipulations."


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## crisler (Jul 26, 2013)

Superb Taijutsu I have to say for the both of them

The taijutsu madara displayed in anime isn't all that impressive people. all fodders, and we know what sasuke did against 1000 fodders. besides, the anime was focusing on emphasizing madaras' calibre. the manga is what actually matters, and the manga was all about how powerful madara was in terms of ninjutus. 

anyways i don't think either of them will defeat the other easily. maybe madara would outlast itachi since he seems to have more chakra...


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## Ghost (Jul 26, 2013)

Madara outlasts. 

Taijutsu/Kenjutsu fight I'd give to Itachi.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 26, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Madara wins.
> 
> Greater strength and vast pool of chakra



This is a taijustu fight having more chakra does not matter here.

Itachi is stronger then him by feats could hold off SM kabuto.


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## Stermor (Jul 26, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> This is a taijustu fight having more chakra does not matter here.
> 
> Itachi is stronger then him by feats could hold off SM kabuto.



having more stamina does help... 

also itachi's feats are overshadowed by madara fighting hashirama equally.. 

it pretty much comes down to that.. itachi and madara both have superb taijutsu.. but madara was capable of standing up to hashirama.. while itachi's best feat is not dieing to bee/ rm naruto... 

with hashirama beeing superior to any opponent to itachi fought..


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## Vice (Jul 26, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> This is a taijustu fight having more chakra does not matter here.
> 
> Itachi is stronger then him by feats could hold off SM kabuto.



.


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## Rios (Jul 26, 2013)

If intelligence matters so much in hand to hand why all those nerds keep getting bullied?


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## Ghost (Jul 26, 2013)

Rios said:


> If intelligence matters so much in hand to hand why all those nerds keep getting bullied?



since when being a nerd makes you more intelligent than someone who is not a nerd?


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## Rocky (Jul 26, 2013)

Never really noticed this before, but could the artwork allude to the level of Madara's Taijutsu?



Notice the spirals. We've only seen that before in Bee's Kenjutsu, as far as I can remember.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Does he now?



...Yes. I thought that much would be obvious, given the dude is past 50 and not on Hashirama-powered life support underground. He has the largest known mission record up to the third databook, IIRC, by a long shot.



> .
> 
> I did take it into account.
> 
> Intelligence is a broad field. Madara fought Senju from childhood till maturity. That's...an insane amount of first hand experience in combat. He's going to know things about battle that Itachi doesn't,  or couldn't, simply by virtue of that.



I doubt it.

There's no guarantee Madara had more experience than Itachi in the first place, given that taking on missions was essentially Itachi's job from the time his momma popped her titty out his mouth; he has roughly 400 or so under his belt in total. Even if you say Madara has more experience, Itachi is no newbie; his mission record is the highest in Akatsuki, even taking the older members like Kakuzu and Sasori into account, which is pretty impressive. Experience is definitely not something he lacks.



> Take Madara out of the battlefield, and Itachi bends him over in a battle of intellect. I do agree, Itachi's feats against Sasuke make him a better strategist than Madara's shown to be. Honestly though, I don't see Itachi outsmarting a legendary war general in actual combat, especially when 95% of Itachi's arsenal are things Madara has seen, like clones, Katon, Genjutsu, and the Mangekyou.



How you use the tools is just as important as the tools themselves. Like Zetsu said. 



αce said:


> What the fuck is this?



The truth.

J-man has more combat experience than anyone that we know of.



Vice said:


> Well, of course. You're a fantard.



I'm going to press you on this, since you're being obnoxious about it:

What exactly has Madara shown that makes you so sure he is even in the same league as Itachi's intelligence?



Jagger said:


> I wouldn't really say Jiraiya has way much more experience than Madara or the Uchiha has more than the Sannin, we can't even tell which one has more, they could be equal about it.
> 
> Jiraiya went to countless dangerous missions and trained along with other two powerful shinobi, Madara was killing experienced Senju without activating his Sharingan while he was just a kid and literally spend all his life in war.



Jiraiya had a longer life on the battlefield than Madara.



Vice said:


> .



Why don't you offer something constructive instead of just being a dick to random people for no reason?

If you don't like what he said, you could at least offer why you think he's wrong.

If that's too much to ask, then don't post here.



Rios said:


> If intelligence matters so much in hand to hand why all those nerds keep getting bullied?



Because they don't have the Taijutsu prowess to keep up with Killer B and KCM Naruto at the same time. 



Rocky said:


> Never really noticed this before, but could the artwork allude to the level of Madara's Taijutsu?
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the spirals. We've only seen that before in Bee's Kenjutsu, as far as I can remember.



Not sure if serious.

But I'll humor you and flatly say "No."


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## αce (Jul 26, 2013)

Madara was in a perpetual state of war from the time he was born up until the time he co-founded Konoha. Jiraiya doing missions in his off time does not equate to being in a literal war for your entire childhood, adolescence and early adulthood and probably up until his mid-late 20's if I'm gauging his age properly.

Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama all have more experience in combat than Jiraiya. If the manga didn't make it blatantly clear that their time was simply just a fighting orgy 24/7, as compared to Jiraiya's age, which was hello kitty in comparison, we aren't reading the same manga.

I couldn't give two shits about the databook.


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## Rocky (Jul 26, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> ...Yes. I thought that much would be obvious, given the dude is past 50 and not on Hashirama-powered life support underground. He has the largest known mission record up to the third databook, IIRC, by a long shot.



Well this is just bad. 

Madara fought basically non-stop, everyday. _War_. Jiraiya did not. Jiraiya was a not a child solider. Jiraiya was a fucking author. End of story. No one gives a shit about mission count. They don't even necessarily indicate combat. 



> There's no guarantee Madara had more experience than Itachi in the first place.



You're grasping now.



> How you use the tools is just as important as the tools themselves. Like Zetsu said.



Out of the ones they share, Madara uses every "tool" better.



> Not sure if serious.
> 
> But I'll humor you and flatly say "No."



Artwork is similar, which was my point anyway. Gonna argue it?  Or are you just too uncomfortable to admit it based on a lack of evidence?


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## Shinryu (Jul 26, 2013)

Madara has higher stamina than Itachi and could blitz him.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 26, 2013)

αce said:


> Madara was in a perpetual state of war from the time he was born up until the time he co-founded Konoha. Jiraiya doing missions in his off time does not equate to being in a literal war for your entire childhood, adolescence and early adulthood and probably up until his mid-late 20's if I'm gauging his age properly.
> 
> Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama all have more experience in combat than Jiraiya. If the manga didn't make it blatantly clear that their time was simply just a fighting orgy 24/7, as compared to Jiraiya's age, which was hello kitty in comparison, we aren't reading the same manga.



You know, a good portion of Madara's adulthood was also spent in relative peace after the founding of Konoha.

That said, Jiraiya traveled the entire world and fought shinobi from virtually every nation. In all likelihood, his experience is greater, which is supported by his enormous mission record.



> I couldn't give two shits about the databook.



Yet, for some reason, you seem to give two shits about the manga, which was penned by the same guy. Doesn't make any sense.



Rocky said:


> Well this is just bad.
> 
> Madara fought basically non-stop, everyday. _War_. Jiraiya did not. Jiraiya was a not a child solider. Jiraiya was a fucking author. End of story. No one gives a shit about mission count. They don't even necessarily indicate combat.



B-Rank and above definitely indicate combat. And, in all likelihood, Jiraiya faced much of it in his C-Rank missions as well.

Madara, like it or not, did have free time to waste on skipping stones across a river with his star-crossed lover and didn't have to participate in much fighting after their respective clans agreed on a truce.



> You're grasping now.



It's not really grasping so much as it is just objectively probably true.



> Out of the ones they share, Madara uses every "tool" better.



Madara doesn't have clones. Madara doesn't have Suiton. Madara doesn't have the legendary weapons or their powers. And, thus far, Madara has not shown possession of Amaterasu, so he may or may not even have it.



> Artwork is similar, which was my point anyway. Gonna argue it?  Or are you just too uncomfortable to admit it based on a lack of evidence?



If you argue based on aesthetics, then pre-skip base Lee is faster than Madara, Killer B, or even the Raikage.

I would've figured most people recognized by now that art style is a terrible way to judge feats.



Shinryu said:


> Madara has higher stamina than Itachi and could blitz him.



Madara couldn't blitz any of the Kage, so he's not going to be able to blitz Itachi.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 26, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> This is a taijustu fight having more chakra does not matter here.
> 
> Itachi is stronger then him by feats could hold off SM kabuto.



I'm inclined to believe Madara is stronger than Itachi (physically), considering he handled those shinobi with utmost ease; it should be noted that Hashirama was his sparring partner, too. When a fighter is restricted to mere taijutsu, however, the smallest areas can't be overlooked.

A long, drawn-out battle is evident, but Madara has a clear advantage.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 26, 2013)

The way I see it, Madara is probably going to get a maxed out taijutsu score so he should have the edge over Itachi in that department. Plus, he blocked Ei so he should be stronger. And he has armor which will make it harder to hurt him. And he definitely has overwhelming advantage in stamina.

So Madara should win this.


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## Rocky (Jul 26, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> B-Rank and above definitely indicate combat. And, in all likelihood, Jiraiya faced much of it in his C-Rank missions as well.



No, they don't. The Rank is the difficulty and that only. There's nothing definitive about it. Believe it or not, Ninja actually operate mainly with stealth.



> Madara, like it or not, did have free time to waste on skipping stones across a river with his star-crossed lover and didn't have to participate in much fighting after their respective clans agreed on a truce.



And in between all of this, the Uchiha and Senju were engaged in non-stop war. Madara fought multiple battles with the god of Ninja. What did Jiraiya do, fight Pain and Hanzou?




> It's not really grasping so much as it is just objectively probably true.



Yeah, objectively.

Based on a mission count of a Databook Madara isn't even part of. Objectively. Right.




> Madara doesn't have clones. Madara doesn't have Suiton. Madara doesn't have the legendary weapons or their powers. And, thus far, Madara has not shown possession of Amaterasu, so he may or may not even have it.






			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> *Out of the ones they share*, Madara uses every "tool" better.


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## Shinryu (Jul 26, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Madara couldn't blitz any of the Kage, so he's not going to be able to blitz Itachi.



Madara was reacting to RM Naruto who was faster than A.EMS Madara can react to bijuudamas.He fought the kages mostly in Susanoo.


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## αce (Jul 26, 2013)

> You know, a good portion of Madara's adulthood was also spent in relative peace after the founding of Konoha.



Which is why I said "until he co-founded konoha". That's still at least 2 decades of war. The fact that he was killing senju's before he even met Hashirama (and before he had a sharingan) indicates to me that he also started very young just as Izuna did. Shinobi in those days started fighting before Jiraiya even learned how to make a fucking bunshin because that's the only life anyone knew.



> That said, Jiraiya traveled the entire world and fought shinobi from virtually every nation. In all likelihood, his experience is greater, which is supported by his enormous mission record.



His experience is good but I'm not sure how it matches up to a guy who lived for the sole purpose of fighting a clan war.



> Yet, for some reason, you seem to give two shits about the manga, which was penned by the same guy. Doesn't make any sense.



Implying the databook doesn't contradict the manga on more than one occassion. Sure, mission stats probably don't contradict anything, but it's not like those matter when it's blatantly obvious who the more experienced shinobi is. Hence why I couldn't give any shits. 



You're basically arguing that because he has a lot of missions (also implying that all of them involve combat), his combat experience is greater than _Madara's_ (and by correlation, Hashirama's) even though those said missions cannot possibly compare to a man who was born into war and raised to fight in a war - and did so until adulthood on multiple occassions with _Hashirama_. 









*Spoiler*: __ 



:sanji


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## LordSnow (Jul 26, 2013)

>debating whether Madara is better than Itachi


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## Okodi (Jul 26, 2013)

Since your restriction didn't involve Madara after gaining that Senju physical strength, Madara is bound to win over Itachi in battle. Madara will win the fight easily in taijutsu due to that fact.

If it is removed, then he will still have the edge over Itachi, seeing how he was bred and raised in an era of war. Itachi is known for finding people's weaknesses and countering them. But with Madara's case, it will be hard to find one that can be exploited to Itachi's own advantage. The only one that may exist is that Madara may be very arrogant and could underestimate Itachi.

Though I wonder if Madara would underestimate his own clan members.



*EDIT FOR MISSION DISCUSSION:*
When looking at things like numbers of missions you need to account that these only started to get registered when the villages where brought up. There was no one registering the missions that the early Uchihas' had. And no one classified their level of difficulty.

It is a bit like records, and how a record made by someone (whatever the type, sports, gaming, sculptures, merchandise) can be deemed unofficial due to how it, and under which circumstances it was achieved. Usain Bolt is the fastest man that has been recorded running 100 m, but there may still be a person in history that could have ran faster, but is simply unrecorded (no steroid abuse).

When looking at animal feats, we also label things as the greatest feat of the animal ever recorded, meaning we have to take into account that some creature may have had an even superior feat.


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## Turrin (Jul 26, 2013)

Madara taijutsu is drawn like B's, plus he has more strength, stamina, and better speed feats. So Madara wins.


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## egressmadara (Jul 26, 2013)

madara strangulates him.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Never really noticed this before, but could the artwork allude to the level of Madara's Taijutsu?
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the spirals. We've only seen that before in Bee's Kenjutsu, as far as I can remember.



Ehh, it's possible, but you have to consider that he was mowing through fodder though. I doubt it would ever be drawn like that against a real contender.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 26, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Madara taijutsu is drawn like B's,



That's just a terrible argument.



> plus he has more strength, stamina, and better speed feats.



Madara has never displayed strength or speed Itachi could not believably replicate; I would consider fighting KCM Naruto and Killer B a better Taijutsu feat than anything Madara has done or gone up against.



Rocky said:


> No, they don't. The Rank is the difficulty and that only. There's nothing definitive about it. Believe it or not, Ninja actually operate mainly with stealth.



>Implying stealth doesn't require or build combat experience.
>Particularly given the fighting style for which Jiraiya's abilities make him most suitable.



> And in between all of this, the Uchiha and Senju were engaged in non-stop war. Madara fought multiple battles with the god of Ninja. What did Jiraiya do, fight Pain and Hanzou?



Why are you acting like that's a bad thing? The strength of the opponent doesn't correlate in any way with the experience earned from fighting them; if all Madara ever did was fight Hashirama non-stop, he wouldn't be half as experienced as a shinobi who lived their life only fighting fodder Jounin from random villages.



> Yeah, objectively.
> 
> Based on a mission count of a Databook Madara isn't even part of. Objectively. Right.



Just pointing out that J-man has the best mission record of anyone to date, and Madara is far from the only shinobi who has been constantly steeped in battle.

Look at how much fighting Kakashi has done, to have copied over a thousand Jutsu in the roughly 13 years since he gained his Sharingan from Obito. On average, that's like a new fight every four days. Itachi's also a pretty extreme case, if you consider that he only became eligible for undertaking missions after age 7, defected from his village by the time he was 12, and has roughly 300-400 missions under his belt, not even taking into account what Akatsuki had him doing for the next 10 years after that.



Shinryu said:


> Madara was reacting to RM Naruto who was faster than A.



Itachi fought KCM Naruto with Taijutsu as well. He didn't take any hits even when Killer B jumped in to assist.



> EMS Madara can react to bijuudamas.



Bijuudama is as fast as KCM Rasen Shuriken, which we have seen other shinobi like the Sandaime Raikage and even Kimimaro react to.



> He fought the kages mostly in Susanoo.



Because they would've raped him otherwise.


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## Yagura (Jul 26, 2013)

Itachi has better feats in CQC; and it looks to me that Madara spends most of his time in battle hiding behind Susano'o and spamming big ninjutsu rather than engaging in taijutsu. That said, Madara's advantage in stamina will play a big role here. Itachi would be able to push him on the ropes, yes, but to point of being able to kill him? I doubt it, honestly. So I think I'll settle on a draw.


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## Kai (Jul 26, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Itachi has better feats in CQC; *and it looks to me that Madara spends most of his time in battle hiding behind Susano'o and spamming big ninjutsu rather than engaging in taijutsu.* That said, Madara's advantage in stamina will play a big role here. Itachi would be able to push him on the ropes, yes, but to point of being able to kill him? I doubt it, honestly. So I think I'll settle on a draw.




Madara has been fighting in war and against Hashirama in particular ever since he was a child. Based on the general shift over time in the flashback, Madara was versed in all forms of combat that he knew.


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## Epicpudding (Jul 26, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Madara's better at taijutsu than Itachi.

Seeing how Madara is already much stronger than Itachi, I don't see how Itachi would beat him in taijutsu...


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## Vice (Jul 26, 2013)

Stop citing the fight with Killer B and Naruto as if it meant anything. None of the participates involved were even trying save for maybe Itachi who wasn't even in control of his own actions.

It's absolutely absurd to think that Itachi can do anything to Madara who has been portrayed to be the Uchiha god in all aspects. Seriously, this is fucking stupid.


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## Ersa (Jul 26, 2013)

The Naruto and B were chilling excuse is such bullshit.

Naruto wasn't using his chakra arms, Itachi wasn't using Susanoo limbs for offense.
Naruto wasn't using any speed at all, first of all 
- what suggests he wasn't using his full speed minus Shunshin, he wants to talk yes but he also knows how dangerous Itachi/Nagato are.
- Itachi was on auto-pilot, nothing suggests he was going all-out.
B trying to cleave Itachi in two from behind =/= Not trying

Granted Madara should be similar in the speed/reflexes department.


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## Rocky (Jul 27, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> @Rocky
> 
> i don't think it was V2 Ei as his hair was pretty much *down in this scan.*



And it was noticeably spiked in the scan I linked.

Madara even refers to it as the _Lighting Release Body Flicker_, or in Battledome terms, Ei's v2 form. When the Raikage uses _Shunshin_, he powers all the way up (goes into v2).


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## ueharakk (Jul 27, 2013)

Rocky said:


> And it was noticeably spiked in the scan I linked.
> 
> Madara even refers to it as the _Lighting Release Body Flicker_, or in Battledome terms, Ei's v2 form. When the Raikage uses _Shunshin_, he powers all the way up (goes into v2).



My interpretation of Shi's statement was that Ei didn't power down his raiton armor altogether (which both he and his father do in battle), rather he kept his armor activated because he had to counter the MS.

That and I think he did use his raiton shunshin earlier when he escaped Juugo's laser at point blank.  

And of course, there's the fact that his hair being not-spiked in the same scan as Ei hitting Madara should be more evidence that it was a V1 hit than his hair being spiked a couple of pages before he hits madara.  Also, it could be just the angle that his head is in that scan that makes it appear his hair is spiked.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 27, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Madara blocked v2 Ei. Notice the _spiked_ hair.



While I  about the hair in that panel being as spiked as v2, as the Raikage's hair is always spiked a bit in back, I actually do agree that he used v2 immediately afterward given that it wouldn't make sense for him to do otherwise.​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 27, 2013)

Itachi loses. Madara has the feats to contend with A's speed and Tsunade's super strength, fought equally with Hashirama in Taijutsu, was known for his speed when he was a kid, and had fought ever since he was able to walk. If he has his Gunbai and Kama, it makes things even worse for Itachi since Itachi won't be able to get beyond it. 

Itachi's best taijutsu feat was tangoing with KCM Naruto who wasn't at full power, nor was he even fighting all out. Madara's best feat was blocking V1/V2 A just centimeters away from his face, as well as reacting to Naruto's BM Clone.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 27, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi loses. Madara has the feats to contend with A's speed and Tsunade's super strength,



Madara doesn't have speed or strength anywhere near A's and Tsunade's, respectively.



> fought equally with Hashirama in Taijutsu,



So what?

That was base Hashirama, who old Hiruzen was able to contend with (albeit in Edo Tensei form with Oro in control).



> was known for his speed when he was a kid,



?

I don't recall anyone hyping Madara's speed when he was young. Scans?



> and had fought ever since he was able to walk.



Welcome to the shinobi system. Itachi had 300 missions under his belt by the time he was 12 and spent the next 10 years kicking ass for Akatsuki.



> If he has his Gunbai and Kama, it makes things even worse for Itachi since Itachi won't be able to get beyond it.



Taijutsu-only.



> Itachi's best taijutsu feat was tangoing with KCM Naruto who wasn't at full power, nor was he even fighting all out.



We have no reason to believe Naruto was holding back.



> Madara's best feat was blocking V1/V2 A just centimeters away from his face,



When?



> as well as reacting to Naruto's BM Clone.



When?


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## Vice (Jul 27, 2013)

Come on, man. He was merely reacting to what Itachi was throwing at him with token offense all while trying to hold a conversation with him.


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## Veracity (Jul 27, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Madara doesn't have speed or strength anywhere near A's and Tsunade's, respectively.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You did not just compare Alive Hashirama to the piece of shit Oro summoned.


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## Ashi (Jul 27, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> You did not just compare Alive Hashirama to the piece of shit Oro summoned.



I think he just did


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## Nikushimi (Aug 2, 2013)

Vice said:


> Come on, man. He was merely reacting to what Itachi was throwing at him with token offense all while trying to hold a conversation with him.



Naruto attacked Itachi several times during that exchange; he wasn't "merely reacting."



Likes boss said:


> You did not just compare Alive Hashirama to the piece of shit Oro summoned.



It was still Hashirama; same physical stats, same Ninjutsu. The only difference is that Orochimaru was in control and had no idea what the fuck he was doing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2013)

Dunno, this could go eitherway.

I don't think there is a significant difference in speed or reflexes. Madara should have more stamina and perhaps durability since he seems to be a bigger guy. He should also have more strength, he was able to block Raikage with his hands(not sure if it is an indicator of anything).

Itachi is more nimble though, he always moves with grace and displayed better agility than anyone else save a few characters.

So it is more like a fight between agility and strength.


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## Sans (Aug 2, 2013)

Vice said:


> Come on, man. He was merely reacting to what Itachi was throwing at him with token offense all while trying to hold a conversation with him.





When someone leaps into the air to throw kicks and punches, I definitely think it was just done on a lark. Indeed, whenever I merely want to hold a conversation, the first thing I do is intercept them in a mid-air collision.

I also think that people can't talk while fighting properly, because that never happens in manga or comic books.

*Edit:* As far as I can tell, Itachi threw one attack to Naruto's two. Ergo, his efforts are even more token than Naruto's. The Uzumaki is lucky that Itachi held back.


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 2, 2013)

Madara is a much better H2H fighter.


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## Hamaru (Aug 2, 2013)

I would go with Madara, based on him supposing to be the strongest Uchiha in history. Also, it seemed that both he and Hashirama practiced a lot of taijutsu from an early age.


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## Vice (Aug 2, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> When someone leaps into the air to throw kicks and punches, I definitely think it was just done on a lark. Indeed, whenever I merely want to hold a conversation, the first thing I do is intercept them in a mid-air collision.
> 
> I also think that people can't talk while fighting properly, because that never happens in manga or comic books.
> 
> *Edit:* As far as I can tell, Itachi threw one attack to Naruto's two. Ergo, his efforts are even more token than Naruto's. The Uzumaki is lucky that Itachi held back.



Itachi was an edo under orders to capture Naruto, he was completely incapable of holding back.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2013)

Vice said:


> Itachi was an edo under orders to capture Naruto, he was completely incapable of holding back.



Then why didn't he blast his ass off with Amaterasu right off the bat ?
Or at least use a kunai ? Because Itachi's lethality is certainly not in his fists.

They just exchanged hits, they were in the same boat.

"Naruto held back" is a bs excuse to deny the fact that Itachi casually duked it out with him.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2013)

Yeah, if he weren't holding back then he'd have grabbed and crushed him with partial Susano'o when they were both midair, he'd have used Tsukuyomi on Bee instead of normal genjutsu, etc.

Besides, look at the 2nd Mizukage. That dude was obviously holding back in some ways, as he didn't use Joki Boi with his clam, so why wouldn't Edo Itachi be a bit tame himself?​


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## Vice (Aug 2, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then why didn't he blast his ass off with Amaterasu right off the bat ?
> Or at least use a kunai ? Because Itachi's lethality is certainly not in his fists.



Because Kabuto chose not to use them.



> They just exchanged hits, they were in the same boat.



But they weren't in the same boat. Itachi was programed to fight and capture Naruto, was incapable of controlling his movements and was not hindered by the need to have his questions answered the same way that Naruto was.



> "Naruto held back" is a bs excuse to deny the fact that Itachi casually duked it out with him.



Naruto holding back is reality. An edo who is not in control of his body and under orders to specifically capture the guy he is currently fighting yet held back is a bs excuse made up by members of Itachi's fanclub.


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## Vice (Aug 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Yeah, if he weren't holding back then he'd have grabbed and crushed him with partial Susano'o when they were both midair, he'd have used Tsukuyomi on Bee instead of normal genjutsu, etc.​



Or Naruto could have used the speed he had shown to overcome A and the power he showed to overcome Pain's summons to effortlessly crush Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2013)

Vice said:


> Or Naruto could have used the speed he had shown to overcome A and the power he showed to overcome Pain's summons to effortlessly crush Itachi.



That's KCM flicker speed and Sage Mode power, I believe, which weren't being used in the taijutsu exchange, just like Itachi wasn't using his deadlier abilities. The taijutsu clash was legit though.​


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## αce (Aug 2, 2013)

I am not sure why Naruto's taijutsu is being held at such high regard here. What Madara did in the opening sequence of the 5 kage battle was much more impressive. Mei launched a corrosive acid towards Madara. While analyzing Mei's jutsu (and having _zero_ previous knowledge on the Raikage's speed) he managed to block A at point blank while being concerned about Mei simultaneously. I need not elaborate on how fast his adaptation had to have been when he noticed A's fist right beside his face. Then there's also the fact that he blocked Tsunade's kick the moment she teleported into his face. Again, at point blank. And took zero damage. From _Tsunade._He simply back flipped into safety, as opposed to Muu who went flying into the rocks behind them.


Itachi blocked Naruto's kicks and kept up in basic taijutsu with him. Okay. That's great. Madara avoided an AOE attack and managed to block the Raikage's raiton enhanced shunshin with zero knowledge at point blank.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2013)

Vice said:


> Because Kabuto chose not to use them.


Oh so your admitting that he held back. Ok.




> But they weren't in the same boat. Itachi was programed to fight and capture Naruto, was incapable of controlling his movements and was not hindered by the need to have his questions answered the same way that Naruto was.


So Itachi or Kabuto thought that capturing Naruto would be possible with Taijutsu. Interesting 





> Naruto holding back is reality. An edo who is not in control of his body and under orders to specifically capture the guy he is currently fighting yet held back is a bs excuse made up by members of Itachi's fanclub.


Read above and re-assess the whole situation. 


Leaving the "Naruto was holding back" bullshit aside(which isn't supported by the manga but is pure fan interpretation) ;

The logical outcome is that they were just warming up and escalating with the same pace most other fights do. 
People start with low end moves and save the heavy hitting for later.


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## Vaerya (Aug 2, 2013)

Madara wins.


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## Yagura (Aug 2, 2013)

αce said:


> What Madara did in the opening sequence of the 5 kage battle was much more impressive.



Eh. Not really.



> Mei launched a corrosive acid towards Madara. While analyzing Mei's jutsu (and having _zero_ previous knowledge on the Raikage's speed) he managed to block A at point blank while being concerned about Mei simultaneously. I need not elaborate on how fast his adaptation had to have been when he noticed A's fist right beside his face.



Even if it was from nigh-point blank, you gotta remember that guys like Juugo and Suigetsu were reacting to Raikage at that speed. So... that's kind of expected from someone of his tier.



> Then there's also the fact that he blocked Tsunade's kick the moment she teleported into his face.



It wasn't teleportation and they saw them appearing beforehand.



> And took zero damage. From _Tsunade._



Hard to say, being an Edo and all. Had he been alive that probably would've shattered his arms.


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## Vice (Aug 2, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oh so your admitting that he held back. Ok.



Obviously he didn't use those techniques. Itachi not using them has nothing to do with whether or not he or Naruto held back during the taijutsu exchange.



> So Itachi or Kabuto thought that capturing Naruto would be possible with Taijutsu. Interesting



So a guy who can't even control his own movements somehow held back. Hmm.



> Read above and re-assess the whole situation.



Why? You're refuting arguments I'm not even trying to make.



> Leaving the "Naruto was holding back" bullshit aside(which isn't supported by the manga but is pure fan interpretation)
> 
> The logical outcome is that they were just warming up and escalating with the same pace most other fights do.
> People start with low end moves and save the heavy hitting for later.



Irrelevant. Itachi and Naruto not bringing out their big guns has nothing to do with whether or not they were holding back physically during a taijutsu exchange.

The fact of the matter is that one was an edo who, at the time, was incapable of of controlling his own movements and was incapable of overriding his programming and the other was a guy who was trying to fight and hold a conversation at the same time.

Like I've said before, not everything has to be drawn in crayon for it to be true.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2013)

Vice said:


> Obviously he didn't use those techniques. Itachi not using them has nothing to do with whether or not he or Naruto held back during the taijutsu exchange.


Obviously. But Itachi was holding back, thats what I am saying.

Kabuto might have ordered him to attack, but Itachi wasn't obviously attacking with all he got.





> So a guy who can't even control his own movements somehow held back. Hmm.



They can't disobey orders, but unless Kabuto is puppeteering them, they have control over what moves they can use.



> Why? You're refuting arguments I'm not even trying to make.


You don't have an argument to begin with.
You are claiming that Naruto was holding back, based on nothing but your interpretation.

I am just showing that Itachi also lacked killing intent when they engaged.



> Irrelevant. Itachi and Naruto not bringing out their big guns has nothing to do with whether or not they were holding back physically during a taijutsu exchange.



Yes, it just shows that they were generally holding back, and were* both *lacking killing intent.




> The fact of the matter is that one was an edo who, at the time, was incapable of of controlling his own movements and was incapable of overriding his programming and the other was a guy *who was trying to fight and hold a conversation at the same time*.



Wait wait, so you are saying that Itachi can fight seriously without holding back and hold a conversation but Naruto can't ?

Ok based on what ? 



> Like I've said before, not everything has to be drawn in crayon for it to be true.



It has to be implied, shown or stated to be true.
The rest is broadly known as ; Fan Fiction.


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## Vice (Aug 2, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obviously. But Itachi was holding back, thats what I am saying.



Itachi is incapable of holding back. He's only capable of doing what Kabuto tells him to do.



> Kabuto might have ordered him to attack, but Itachi wasn't obviously attacking with all he got.



Are we talking about Susanoo and Amaterasu or are we talking about physically, because it seems as if we're having two separate arguments here.



> They can't disobey orders, but unless Kabuto is puppeteering them, they have control over what moves they can use.



Was that not exactly what was happening?



> You don't have an argument to begin with.
> You are claiming that Naruto was holding back, based on nothing but your interpretation.



Based on common sense and the fact that Naruto is physically capable of much more than he showed. 



> I am just showing that Itachi also lacked killing intent when they engaged.



Itachi can't lack anything Kabuto doesn't want him to.



> Yes, it just shows that they were generally holding back, and were* both *lacking killing intent.



Except that one was capable of thinking and acting on his own and the other wasn't.



> Wait wait, so you are saying that Itachi can fight seriously without holding back and hold a conversation but Naruto can't ?
> 
> Ok based on what ?



Based on the fact that Kabuto was controlling his movements for him. Naruto had to fight and converse, while Itachi was on autopilot. It's not the same thing. Not even remotely.



> It has to be implied, shown or stated to be true.
> The rest is broadly known as ; Fan Fiction.



An Itachi-tard would certainly know.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 2, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> As far as I can tell, Itachi threw one attack to Naruto's two. Ergo, his efforts are even more token than Naruto's. The Uzumaki is lucky that Itachi held back.







Vice said:


> Itachi was an edo under orders to capture Naruto, he was completely incapable of holding back.



And that somehow means Naruto held back? No.

Itachi and Naruto both fought all-out with Taijutsu.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then why didn't he blast his ass off with Amaterasu right off the bat ?
> Or at least use a kunai ? Because Itachi's lethality is certainly not in his fists.
> 
> They just exchanged hits, they were in the same boat.
> ...



Grimmjowsensei summed it up perfectly.



Vice said:


> Because Kabuto chose not to use them.



Itachi was in auto-pilot mode, not manual control; Kabuto did not control his actions or choice of attack, but merely forced him to take the initiative.



> But they weren't in the same boat. Itachi was programed to fight and capture Naruto, was incapable of controlling his movements and was not hindered by the need to have his questions answered the same way that Naruto was.



Why would that be a hindrance?



> Naruto holding back is reality.



If it's a reality, then why is the sole basis for that claim the observation that Itachi held his own, which is already a sufficient explanation by itself?



> An edo who is not in control of his body and under orders to specifically capture the guy he is currently fighting yet held back is a bs excuse made up by members of Itachi's fanclub.



Just like Naruto holding back is a BS excuse made up by people who want to deny Itachi credit where credit is due.



Vice said:


> Or Naruto could have used the speed he had shown to overcome A



Neither of them used Shunshin; Naruto's chakra was split with Kage Bunshin, so it wouldn't have been anywhere near what he demonstrated against the Raikage, anyway.



> and the power he showed to overcome Pain's summons to effortlessly crush Itachi.



Sasuke and Naruto were physically one-shotting large animals as early as the Forest of Death. Physically, Itachi is on a completely different level than they were; it's not really surprising that he could hold his own in a fist fight with someone who can casually toss such creatures around. It's not like he directly stopped Naruto's attacks or anything, either.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2013)

Vice said:


> Itachi is incapable of holding back. He's only capable of doing what Kabuto tells him to do.



Itachi is capable of holding back. 
Like I said, he obeys orders, his method of attacking is up to himself. Kabuto wasn't puppeteering him like he did with sandaime.



> Are we talking about Susanoo and Amaterasu or are we talking about physically, because it seems as if we're having two separate arguments here.



I am not sure what you are trying to say here. 
Kabuto ordered him to take the initiative, Itachi chose to fight with taijutsu. He wasn't using a Kunai, he wasn't targeting vital areas and after B joined the fray he chose to retreat.

I am pretty sure he has some kind of a freedom in what he does.




> Was that not exactly what was happening?


Kabuto wasn't puppeteering him. When he does that, the edo loses his consciousness and Kabuto takes over the body. Like he did to sandaime and Nagato.



> Based on common sense and the fact that Naruto is physically capable of much more than he showed.



Same goes for Itachi.





> Itachi can't lack anything Kabuto doesn't want him to.


Say it however you like, then Kabuto didn't want Itachi to have killing intent, because he certainly didn't.





> Except that one was capable of thinking and acting on his own and the other wasn't.


If Itachi wasn't capable of thinking, then he wouldn't be able to freely talk to Naruto.
Edo tensei has certain rules, but you can move freely within those rules.
Thats what Hanzo exploited and cut himself.




> Based on the fact that Kabuto was controlling his movements for him. Naruto had to fight and converse, while Itachi was on autopilot. It's not the same thing. Not even remotely.


Kabuto wasn't controlling his movements. I think you got the whole edo tensei thing wrong. 
Kabuto left the tensei to their devices. They all act under orders from Kabuto, he doesn't decide every single of their moves.




> An Itachi-tard would certainly know.



Its funny coming from someone who has one purpose in life, to stalk all of Itachi threads and shittalk about him 24/7.

But no, I am talking common sense here.

If something is not in the manga, visually or verbally. Something that isn't even _hinted_, then it only exists in your mind.

Your interpretation has no validity.


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